# Pawel Kowalski,91



## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

Pawel is going into Nursing Home, True Story, listed his house in East End TO, A fixer upper, for about $700,000, SOLD for almost a million.

This story is repeating itself across Canada as the generation of the 50's that bought and held R.E age, they will die off, and although the next generation, The Boomers, will get large inheritances, in many cases it is the Boomers Offsprings, the 30 somethings who will receive this largesse, either immediatly or at some future time.

Those young people buying the $500,000 Condos, many should say thanks to their Grand Parents.

Personally know a couple of young lads who got their start with Grand Dad's cheque, now living in $600,000 condos they paid a little over $300,000 several years ago.

Everyone is a Pawel, some may use RE, some may use Stocks, whatever, but given enough time and a frugal life, this is the way inheritances are created.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Friends just put mom in a high end nusing home (Alzheimers). Their only concern was whether she would run out of money. Living expenses estimated to be $7800/mo.

Just sold her house in downtown Victoria to a neighbour. No RE fees. No other showings. Now they know she will have enough.

Fortunately our friends were not counting on an inheritance.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

kcowan, WHY?

They could just as easily put Her into a regular home, the care is good and supervised, and with Alzheimers, to the individual afflicted with this terrible ailment, She is totally oblivious to where She is living.

The sad reality of Alzheimers is that most do not live beyond three years.

I would not wish it on anyone, if I get diagnosed, before it advances, I'll take a Happy Pill and spare my family of having to deal with me.

My Dad is a Pawel, but his mind is excellent, physically, not so good, but fortunate to have a very caring Girl Friend.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

But for every pawel there are probably 10 old people who will die broke.

Both my sets of grandparents died broke and left nothing to my parents. My parents aren't worth anywhere close to 700k (although they probably would be if they bought in Toronto instead of a town where real-estate prices barely grew at all over the last 20 years), and when they die I'll have to split my inheritance with my siblings. I anticipate getting around 50k from my parents, hardly something that will change my life at a time where a typical house costs 700k. My point is that I think the situation you describe isn't very common.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

We have been supporting my 93-year-old grandmother-in-law for many years now. Her house (actually, mobile home) in rural east Ontario didn't appreciate significantly during the many years she lived there and pretty much cost peanuts to begin with.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

howard won't you please stop slobbering & drooling over the inheritances to be received from an aged generation.

have you nothing to say on the non-material side ? what about their values, their work, their artistry, their creations, their courage, their spirits, their loving kindness ?

to my ears you often sound here like a perpetual hearse-chaser. The guy who would stand to deliver the eulogy at a funeral & read out the deceased's balance sheet instead.

how about you stop counting the dollar signs & try to prepare a proper hommage to the life & times of these fine old folks.

also, you are taking a serious security risk w your revelations about your own father's net worth imho. At 92, does he know you keep rabbitting on about his assets behind his back.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

HP, to my ears you sound like a very jealous person who cannot add anything to the topic, so you prattle about nothing, but losers generally do.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

the last thing i am is jealous of you.

i'm certainly not a loser & i'll speak to whatever topic i choose, whenever i choose.

you've already been reproached by others here for gloating.

you've had the appalling recklessness to boast about the details of your father's wealth & the unspeakable vulgarity to claim it as your own inheritance in the same breath.

too bad that nothing gets through to people like you. Here, may i spell it out. You. Have. Gravely. Compromised. The. Security. Of. A. Frail. Senior. Citizen.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

For what's it's worth, I agree with the pie. It's unseemly to be salivating over the estate one will receive one day, especially as a result of one's benefactor living in penury. I can't think of a good reason for an old person to save their pension for their rotten kids. They worked for it. They should enjoy it. Their kids ought to make their own way.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

I have to say I agree with pie as well, it is unseemly, your fixation upon real estate, inheritance and such. Tell me again how great it is in Florida. 

And I hate to break it to you, but for every Pawel there are 10 who die with nothing, Toronto (Vancouver and Montreal) aren't the centre of the universe and real estate is very different in other parts of the country


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

I'm afraid I agree with HP. Andrew, and CrazyJack too, Howard. You have posted a couple of things in the past that rather appalled me. You once complained that requests for your 92-year-old Dad to give money to avoid probate fees "...fall on deaf ears..." My thought when I read that was, "Good for the Dad." Many people choose to do things like that; I may decide to do it myself in the future, but if my children were pressuring me to do it, I might leave my money to a home for stray cats!

Something else you said in another post that shocked me even more was when you stated that our money is not really ours and that we should be investing based on our beneficiaries, whom you called "the actual owners who will eventually receive these monies."

Putting these two quotes together, it suggests to me that you resent the fact that your father considers his money his own, rather than yours, and that you think he should sign some of it over to you now. Frankly, I think it would serve you right if he lives to 110 and has to spend it all on his own care.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

Karen, you may be appalled but you are not dealing with the facts nor accepting them.

I have full Financial Responsibility for not only My Father's monies, but also several of my siblings.

I know how they think, I know what the plans are, and my main reason for taking over proba
te is based upon seeing other people's experiances with outside consultants where the main theme seems to be to extend the time and expense to make more money for the executor.

I would rather many thousands go to our Family by doing the executor and minimising probate fees than go in taxes or to some Trust.

Chinese Philosophy , First Generation works hard to educate the second generation to make money so the third generation may spend it.

I strongly believe that assets are generational, that strong families wealth is built over time, some agree, some may disagree, but to be appalled because some people do not share your train of thought, to my mind is overly dramatic.

This is a Forum, not all think alike and that is good, and the differant approaches are very much shaped by the individual circumstances of each poster, but attacking people whose ideas you do not share stifles creativity and causes people to be reluctant to add, and that, in my opinion, is bad.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I'm Howard said:


> kcowan, WHY?
> 
> They could just as easily put Her into a regular home, the care is good and supervised, and with Alzheimers, to the individual afflicted with this terrible ailment, She is totally oblivious to where She is living.
> 
> ...


They wanted her money to be used to make her comfortable while she lives rather than managing it so that she does not cost too much.

I think they are both upstanding people and I applaud this action. We put MIL in a first class hospice during her final days. We never regretted it. It was a place that I would have liked to live in! Private room with its own large patio, wonderful common facilities, a library, a place to prepare food individually.


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## Larry6417 (Jan 27, 2010)

*To lighten the mood...*

A little girl, very excited, runs to her grandfather.

Little girl: "Grandpa! Grandpa! Make like a frog!"

Grandpa: "What do you mean?"

Little girl: "I just heard mom and dad talking. They say we're going to be rich as soon as you croak!"


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

kcowan, I totally agree that the final times should be as comfortable as possible, older people treasure their independance.

The only reason I raised the issue was to reassure people who may not have the material means that a person who has Alzheimers can just as well be looked after by a public institution.

I saw first hand when a friends' Mother went into St Peters Hospital in Hamilton the wonderfull level of care provided, a public institution full of caring, hard working staff.

We ae fortunate that our Father lives with his lady freind in a 55 plus community, withhout Her I have no doubt we would be looking ata Chartwell Home. 

CSH.UN, I bought some, I think they are in the right spot,I'm only a few years away from knocking on their doors.


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

Larry6417 said:


> A little girl, very excited, runs to her grandfather.
> 
> Little girl: "Grandpa! Grandpa! Make like a frog!"
> 
> ...




My parents have had an awesome life, happily married for 50 years and always spent most of their income on travel, golf, eating well and spending time with friends. I know I won't be getting a big cheque from them down the road and may in fact be helping pay their bills at the end and I am fine with that. They gave me a great childhood and are still supportive, positive, fantastic parents. Go spend your money mom and dad!! Your kids will be just fine!!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

howard you were certainly not reassuring ordinary canadians without means that alzheimers' patients can be well cared for in public institutions.

you were advocating that the heirs to a wealthy alzheimers' patient should put her in a regular (ie public) home because the disease would make her "totally oblivious" to the quality of her care. Furthermore the patient would likely die within three years, you said.

in other words, such heirs should cut corners in order to conserve their own inheritance ...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

the inspiring thing about this thread, apart from the scrooge who started it, is that so many are writing altruistically and in the best spirit of civil society, about doing the right thing for all the old folks out there.

we have concern expressed for the many old people who die broke through no fault of their own.

we have at least 2 families who kept their MILs in excellent private establishments with the best of care, even though said families could have saved $$ for their own inheritances with cheaper setups.

we have one family cheerfully supporting an elderly grandmother who has no savings of her own, and this without a hint of complaint or even an expectation of praise for their devotion.

and, finally, we have a poster who says, in simple & loving terms, hey mom & dad thanks for a great childhood.


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## BarryD (Nov 8, 2010)

Ihatetaxes said:


> My parents have had an awesome life, happily married for 50 years and always spent most of their income on travel, golf, eating well and spending time with friends. I know I won't be getting a big cheque from them down the road and may in fact be helping pay their bills at the end and I am fine with that. They gave me a great childhood and are still supportive, positive, fantastic parents. Go spend your money mom and dad!! Your kids will be just fine!!


Don't pipe up too often.... 

I'm with ya. Having ones parents around healthy and happy, having fun well into their 70s is a gift. Mum's not with us any more but if something horrible happened to Dad like Alzheimers or a stroke and he needed to go to some home, damn straight, it's going to be the best that can be afforded. He earned it and if he didn't know, it doesn't matter. My Sis and I do. And when he does go, you'd never wipe the grin off my face if he had $100 to his name. 

Back to lurk.....


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

A few years after my father died, my mother developed a really terrible form of dementia (it was not Alzheimers but something I'd never heard of called Louis Body Dementia). My brother (who was single and llived alone) moved in with her and looked after her with incredible love and patience - and let me tell you, it took incredible patience. Mum's doctor and his own doctor kept telling him that it was too hard on him and that she should be in a care home, but he said he wouldn't put her in a home until she got so bad that she didn't know where she was. That finally happened and she spent her last six months in awonderful small, private care home where he visited her every day. They lived in another city, so I wasn't there to help, but when Mum died, I gave my brother my half of her estate as a thank-you for what he had done. He needed the money a lot more than I did, and I was so glad there was something I could do for him to show my gratitude.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

humble pie. I will consider the source, but do not confuse cheap with cost effective, and if someone feels better spending a fortune to provide a setting that is no differant really than less costly alternatives, so be it.


Humble pie, I will also add that my personal wealth eclipses my Fathers, that any inheritance will bypass me, that the monies will be invested for future generations.

I will also add that,including paying for their own Tuitions while at School. our children have good careers, good partners, University Grads, to date they have done it all on their own

Karen, we went through exactly the same thing, one sibling cared for his Parents until they passed away, the entire estate was given to him as gratitude by the Sisters.

Three years later, He had spent it all.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Mum's estate wasn't very large (under $100,000) so my brother didn't get a lot, but it was certainly a help to him. I'm sure it's spent now too, but understandably so as he needed it for living expenses. He was one of those people who lost his job at 60 and has been unable to get another one - I think he's lost his confidence and has completely given up on finding one. He'll be 65 in 7 months time, so he'll be eligible then for OAS and GIS - thank goodness. In the meantime, he's taking his CPP early, and I help him out.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Karen said:


> I gave my brother my half of her estate as a thank-you for what he had done.


Karen, that was very nice of you. Most people probably would have given your brother a small token of appreciation, but you made a significant gesture.


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

Back to the original topic, in the coming years, there will be a massive intergenerational shift in wealth, with today's youth benefitting from the hard work of the previous generations.

Far from this being a bad thing, this is what the American dream was built on: a brighter future for the children of first generation imigrants. This only becomes a problem when it is neither appreciated or cherished by the recipients.

Often the wealth is squandered by those who received it without earning it, much the way lottery winners are often worse off than before, a few years after winning a huge sum. 

While I don't think parents should sacrifice their lifestyle in old age to allow their children to reap the rewards, that is simply how they have lived all their lives.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Thank you Four Pillars. Quite honestly, I felt that it wasn't enough. He gave up nearly two years of his life to look after our Mum so lovingly. When I say she was in a terrible state of dementia, I mean it was really grim; during the last six months that he was able to keep her at home, she became violent, she used to come out into the living room stark naked when my brother had company, she had lost all idea of what it meant to be human, really, and yet my brother never lost patience with her. My husband and I had his 88-year-old father living with us at the time, so it would have been a real nightmare if I'd had to deal with Mum's illness by myself, especially since she didn't live where I live. I'll feel I owe my brother a huge debt for as long as I live.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Dmoney said:


> Back to the original topic, in the coming years, there will be a massive intergenerational shift in wealth, with today's youth benefitting from the hard work of the previous generations.


Was that the original topic?

I recall reading about someone who made a fortunate decision in buying real estate that appreciated, but that is not exclusive to any previous generation of home owners.

Anyone in Calgary who bought before 2005 experienced and still have roughly 50% increase in home value. One can argue that if we don't blow it away by remortgaging those gains, that anyone who lived and bought a home in Calgary before that time will leave a great present for future generations.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Sampson said:


> ...Anyone in Calgary who bought before 2005 experienced and still have roughly 50% increase in home value. One can argue that if we don't blow it away by remortgaging those gains, that anyone who lived and bought a home in Calgary before that time will leave a great present for future generations.


I think this is what is making the RE meltdownin the US so hard. No money for future generations. Barely enough for the current generation to retire.

It probably bodes poorly for extended care facilities because so many people will no longer afford them.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

There's no reason to think that real estate in the US won't recover, in even the near (3+ yrs) to mid-term.

Many American markets have already recovered, and some never really even took a hit, just things have stalled. It is something like the argument in the Vancouver market, prices are only over-inflated when people can't afford to pay for them, if people can, then prices will remain or even climb.

You can look at the San Fran Bay Area, NYC, and other high demand markets to see how much the 'housing crisis' affected them.

Anyone depending on some form of reverse mortgage, or inheritance of a property to fund their retirement are in trouble regardless of whether prices continue to remain low.


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## Larry6417 (Jan 27, 2010)

*Off topic, but...*

U.S. home prices are still declining even in "high-demand" areas. According to the S&P Shiller index, San Francisco declined 5% year over year (as of March). See www.standardandpoors.com/indices/sp...ices/en/us/?indexId=spusa-cashpidff--p-us----

Long term real estate prices closely track inflation. There are small pockets where high demand (i.e. many places in AB) cause increases much higher than inflation, but those prices can't be generalized to the whole market. For California and SF specifically, I suspect prices will be stagnant for some time because fewer people are moving to California. California is losing the "tax arbitrage" wars. Why do you think they're running those commercials (_Come to California!_)?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I think what people fail to remember is that RE is a long term investment, that usually increases around the same rate as inflation. If you're buying it, and holding it for 20+ years, then you will inevitably make money. (How much is another story). This implies that whatever you signed up for on you mortgage, you should be able to carry, and are not requiring the build up in equity to save you in case of bad times. Where people get into problems are that they are over mortgaged, remortgaging/refinancing, selling short term, etc. 

RE always corrects itself over time.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

@ Larry6417 - it's all relative though. and from the peak
If you look at the 2009 report, you can see the YOY numbers and how in some places, from 08-09 YOY, #'s were down ~50%.

So even in America, if you bought before 2001, you are still up 20-30% - consistent with your "RE keeps up with inflation"


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

For me, I see this as a sequence of returns issue. It really depends on when you need the monies.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Good point. Sequence of returns risk applies to all asset classes, not just investments.


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## Larry6417 (Jan 27, 2010)

Absolutely sequence of returns applies to RE! My point was that, overall, real estate *just* keeps up with inflation (i.e. doesn't outperform) - except in a few selected areas.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Larry6417 said:


> Long term real estate prices closely track inflation. There are small pockets where high demand (i.e. many places in AB) cause increases much higher than inflation, but those prices can't be generalized to the whole market.



I was reading this fantastic blog the other day, and it had a series of charts that made quite an impression:











If housing prices in the GTA were to decline just to where they were in relation to rent during the trough in the mid '90s, we're looking at a 30% decline. If they return to the longer term rent trend, the decline will be even larger.

Check out that blog though, it was very interesting.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I think RE tracks wage inflation and that was tracking at 4% for the GTA over 50 years.

Many bears are saying that wage inflation will lag CPI for many years. Who knows?

Is Toronto and Vancouver different because of the Asian investors? I know they were saying that back in the 80s. Then the recession hit and they stoped saying it. What happened was that the Asian investors just stopped buying when property values stopped increasing. That lasted for 7 years in Toronto.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

kcowan said:


> I think RE tracks wage inflation and that was tracking at 4% for the GTA over 50 years.
> 
> Many bears are saying that wage inflation will lag CPI for many years. Who knows?
> 
> Is Toronto and Vancouver different because of the Asian investors? I know they were saying that back in the 80s. Then the recession hit and they stoped saying it.


My observations are that in Vancouver, the Asian market has bought up many houses - but mostly in exclusive neighborhoods - Richmond and the West side. I don't know how long it'll last tho - Vancouver house prices responded +'ly in the 1990's to the immigration of Hong Kong residents, and afterward, to the huge influx of $ from China. Word is, however, that China is slowing down economically, ergo, so will Vancouver.


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