# Engagement Ring 20-25k?



## Fain87 (Jan 20, 2018)

Hi all,

Looking to get a diamond engagement ring possibly within 3-6 months for my girlfriend. Looking to spend between 20-25k. Anyone have good referrals or links on a good source on diamonds? Willing to travel within north america as well to make the purchase if needed. Can pay cash as well but looking for Something similar to Cartier quality. 

I am in Toronto region currently.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Why do you think you should spend this amount of money? That's extremely expensive. I can feed myself for 6 years on 25K.

Isn't the engagement ring an expression of love and desire to be together? Would you consider buying a very attractive, high quality ring at a much lower price instead?

Diamond rings have been aggressively marketed by diamond cartels (De Beers). The company has _created_ the perception that a man needs to buy an ultra-expensive token of love. Before you decide to spend this kind of money, consider that you are being manipulated and tricked by the diamond industry. See these articles:
https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...-invented-the-diamond-engagement-ring/385376/
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you-ever-tried-to-sell-a-diamond/304575/

Don't spend 20K-25K on a ring just because De Beers told you to do so.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I can sell you a shiny rock if you want, I've got tons in my back yard. They are probably worth just as much as your diamond. 

Of course, if you don't believe be, look at the diamond resale market...doesn't really exist for the most part. Why not troll some old antique shops/pawn shops and pick one up there for a fraction of the price.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

If you want to spend that much, at least get a Canadian diamond instead of a blood diamond. 

My fiance spent $550 on my engagement ring 22 years ago and I still love it (and him). Granted, my diamond is not of great quality or size, but I have to think nowadays one could get an extremely nice ring for less than 10k. I can't even imagine a 20-25k ring. 

I would also add, if you plan to spend that much, definitely let your fiancee pick the ring. You can propose with a CZ placeholder ring and then go shopping together for the real one. Imagine you buy something for 20k and she hates it? What a disaster.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Beetlejuice............he whips out a ring.............still has the finger in it.........:excitement:


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Spudd said:


> My fiance spent $550 on my engagement ring 22 years ago and I still love it (and him). Granted, my diamond is not of great quality or size, but I have to think nowadays one could get an extremely nice ring for less than 10k. I can't even imagine a 20-25k ring.


That's about $1,000 in today's dollars. That seems like a sensible amount to spend on a ring.

Personally I think the whole ritual is becoming outdated. The idea of giving expensive jewelry made sense when women were highly disadvantaged, could not work, were totally dependent on men. Their lives would be ruined if the relationship fell apart, and the jewelry was an asset they would carry with them. Not at all the situation today.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

A. Your question is Off-Topic. The title of this thread is *Frugality,* not *conspicuous consumption*.

B. Notwithstanding, if you want and can afford this kind of luxury, that's your choice. But you are not likely to get useful advice (other than "don't do it") from this Forum.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Just to add fuel to the fire: Have you consulted your SO on this idea?

- She may think it's a waste of money; or,
- If she thinks YES, you should buy her expensive baubles, you may wish to reconsider your relationship.

But I admit that's personal prejudice.


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## Fain87 (Jan 20, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> I can sell you a shiny rock if you want, I've got tons in my back yard. They are probably worth just as much as your diamond.
> 
> Of course, if you don't believe be, look at the diamond resale market...doesn't really exist for the most part. Why not troll some old antique shops/pawn shops and pick one up there for a fraction of the price.


If you don't have a connection on cheap diamonds. Why bother responding. I don't care about your back-yard.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

My daughter had a diamond ring worth (certificate of appraisal) of $9800...after her divorce I was able to sell it for her for $1000 USD to unsuspecting person. A friend in the business offered me $420 (decent gold in the band) since I was a bud.Why throw money away...?


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

I went to Costco last week and saw a diamond ring for $33k....WTF. 

If you need to buy an expensive ring to show that you love her, you may be broke in future. Once you are broke, she will definitely leave you.


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## Fain87 (Jan 20, 2018)

OhGreatGuru said:


> A. Your question is Off-Topic. The title of this thread is *Frugality,* not *conspicuous consumption*.
> 
> B. Notwithstanding, if you want and can afford this kind of luxury, that's your choice. But you are not likely to get useful advice (other than "don't do it") from this Forum.


Seems to be the case with this forum. However similar to other Questions i've had in the past. I've posted on other forums as well. . . Frugality or smart purchasing to me can be buying a 100k car for 90k or 25k diamond for 18-20k. . .Good deals on big ticket items. What I'm looking for is wholesaler or really good contact that doesn't mind doing a small retail order job now and then.


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## Fain87 (Jan 20, 2018)

scorpion_ca said:


> I went to Costco last week and saw a diamond ring for $33k....WTF.
> 
> If you need to buy an expensive ring to show that you love her, you may be broke in future. Once you are broke, she will definitely leave you.


I don't need the model of car I drive, or to eat out at Restaurants as much as I do or require as big of an apartment as I have. . . However there's some things i'm happy to pay for and do so willingly . . . 

If you're out with friends and break out the calculator each time the dinner bill comes. That's up to you but it's not for me.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Fain87 said:


> If you don't have a connection on cheap diamonds. Why bother responding. I don't care about your back-yard.


Too bad you didn't read the second part...pawn shops are full of used diamonds, good quality, at severely discounted prices. You could probably double the size of your rock for the same price if you went there. You could get them placed into a new ring with a modern design.


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## Fain87 (Jan 20, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> Too bad you didn't read the second part...pawn shops are full of used diamonds, good quality, at severely discounted prices. You could probably double the size of your rock for the same price if you went there.


I read that part. You just said Pawnshop, A referral isn't a store category. . . If you got a pawnshop where you noticed known for quality of good deals on diamonds with a vast selection, by all means list the name and address. 

Again you're responding to something you don't know about. Either speak from knowledge or experience or maybe accept that maybe this isn't your realm of expertise.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Gee, there are pawnshops all across this country and the USA that sell diamonds. Didn't think you are incapable of looking in your own town. Toronto has a ton, some even high end. Would you also like me to purchase it and pay for it as well, since you're incapable of finding a store? 

I think you'll find people on this board know a hell of a lot more than you do and tend not to chip in unless they do. 

I'm betting you never even thought of buying a used diamond at a discount. But I'll bow to your "expertise" and let you waste your money going forward. 

I'm sorry I couldn't provide you with the address and phone number for the closest store to your house however, you got me there on my lack of expertise.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Fain87 said:


> Seems to be the case with this forum. However similar to other Questions i've had in the past. I've posted on other forums as well. . . Frugality or smart purchasing to me can be buying a 100k car for 90k or 25k diamond for 18-20k. . .Good deals on big ticket items. What I'm looking for is wholesaler or really good contact that doesn't mind doing a small retail order job now and then.


Unfortunately, that's going to be the case with this type of question, which pops up all the time on the forum, i.e. don't spend the money because it's a waste, if a woman wants to marry you, it shouldn't require an expensive bauble, etc. Yes, the logical answer, but hardly a useful answer.

My take on it, is if it isn't going to seriously impact your finances, do what makes you feel good. I.e. if you can afford that amount comfortably, then all the power to you.

Personally, I went with Zoara. It is an internet-based company, and the ring that I bought was appraised by a jeweler for about 50% than what I paid for it. It does come with a GIA certification. It is based in the US, so you do have to watch out for customs and duties. 

https://www.zoara.ca/

But I do recommend that the SO is involved in picking out because they are the one who will be wearing it. Surprising the SO is a nice tradition, but let's be honest, if you know you plan on getting married, what's the point of surprising?

BTW regarding pawnshops, they aren't always the best value for money, as they may usually lack the GIA certification, and may not be the cut that the SO wants... just like buying a car, you can buy used, but limited on choice, or spend the money and buy new and have the flexibility.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I can see the problem with pawn shops, the lack of control and assurances about the quality and the possibility of getting ripped off.

It would be interesting to hear of other vendors (especially second hand) that could let Fain87 get his hands on a diamond that went for 25K new but costs a fraction of that in resale. The question is, who are those reputable, reliable second hand vendors, how do we know they are not ripping you off, etc?

Fain87: you might also look at the makers of man-made diamonds. The techniques for creating diamonds in the lab has progressed in the last few years, and these are pure, real diamonds -- they are not fakes or look alikes. They are cheaper than diamonds from mining operations but absolutely are real diamonds... even more pure than traditional diamonds.


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## Fain87 (Jan 20, 2018)

bgc_fan said:


> Unfortunately, that's going to be the case with this type of question, which pops up all the time on the forum, i.e. don't spend the money because it's a waste, if a woman wants to marry you, it shouldn't require an expensive bauble, etc. Yes, the logical answer, but hardly a useful answer.
> 
> My take on it, is if it isn't going to seriously impact your finances, do what makes you feel good. I.e. if you can afford that amount comfortably, then all the power to you.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I will check out Zoara. Sounds you had a pretty good experience with them.


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## Fain87 (Jan 20, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> Gee, there are pawnshops all across this country and the USA that sell diamonds. Didn't think you are incapable of looking in your own town. Toronto has a ton, some even high end. Would you also like me to purchase it and pay for it as well, since you're incapable of finding a store?
> 
> I think you'll find people on this board know a hell of a lot more than you do and tend not to chip in unless they do.
> 
> ...


I don't see what you're not understanding. I've received good referrals from people before and given good referrals before as well in all sorts of areas. Got a referral from people on realtors, cell-phone plans, Skilled Trades and lawyers as well. 

If someone asks for a referral for a good quality Suit for cheap and you say "Go to a independent tailor". Are you actually giving a referral? Someone looking for a cheap cell-phone deal with lots of data, you'd say go to a discount cell carrier. Someone asks if you know any available carpenters and you say "try Craiglists". Get the Point i'm making. 

I don't expect you to go shopping with me but if you don't have a contact/source for something, why not just stay out of the conversation if you can't add anything of value.


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## digitalatlas (Jun 6, 2015)

I'm not saying, don't do it, because if you have the money and want to, that's your choice. It's definitely a good idea to talk about it with your fiance, because maybe he/she doesn't think it's a good idea, for many possible reasons.

Just from personal experience, I got mine from Tiffany's (yah, overpriced, could have gotten 'bigger' for less elsewhere) but it was supposedly sourced from somewhere legit, and the specific one was exactly what my fiance wanted, and she wanted it from Tiffany's. I spent 10k.

Fast forward 7 years, she's really happy we got it because it was relevant at the time (along with matching platinum bands for both), but we woudln't do it again. We never wear any of them, and even she realizes that in the grand scheme of things, it really wasn't all that important. There's plenty more in the marriage and parenthood that's way more significant and creates a bond between you more than a piece of metal would. You can use the cash for something else that you love. People don't always continue to "love" their ring, you know? It's just a ring. Doesn't mean you don't love it, it's just...another object, you know? You continue to figure out what you love to do or have in your life as you get older. Maybe you'd "love" to go someplace in the world...that might stick with you longer.

I even paid for insurance for it for like 5 years (you might want to insure a 25k ring). My buddy who got a wholesale deal and spent 15k on a 25k ring says he and his wife had the same experience, and she's actually afraid to wear the ring because she's worried she'll get mugged. So she's basically never worn it outside of a couple evening events. 
Ironic.

If my wife wasn't going through a Tiffany's phase, I would have definitely insisted on a 100% guaranteed Canadian diamond. Tiffany's says they make every effort to get legit diamonds, but they don't guarantee it. I relented. A Canadian diamond should have a paper trail right from the mine it came from in Canada. But again, this is personal preference as to whether or not it matters to you.

Also, to be super practical, a 25k ring that's not from some designer like Tiffany's could be HUGE. Depending on how your fiance is in proportion to the ring, it may look good or it may look tacky. It's not a status symbol for you to show off how much you spend on the ring. If you want a status symbol, buy a better car.

Just some food for thought.


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## newfoundlander61 (Feb 6, 2011)

I have been married many years with 3 kids and 4 grandkids. After a few years the size of the ring is not that important to her like it was when she first go it. My wife picked out the ring herself at around $2k, the amount you want to spend would be better used elsewhere.


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## jwsclark19 (Nov 24, 2014)

I second zoara.ca.....Got a really nice diamond ring for my Wife about 4 years ago from them. D colour, VVS clarity. The diamond was from Canada, conflict free obviously. $4k for the diamond ring. I was very happy with their service. Came in a nice little case with an LED that shines on the ring as you open the case. Their service was excellent. I would imagine for $25k, you could get a stunning ring from them.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

My rings are worth more than that but I had to wait 20 years to get the first rock ,if I had a dollar for every time somebody bought the big ring and big dress etc then to divorce under 5 years .


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## newfoundlander61 (Feb 6, 2011)

"Looking to spend between 20-25k" Your cracked b'y  Newfie humour.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

marina628 said:


> My rings are worth more than that but I had to wait 20 years to get the first rock ,if I had a dollar for every time somebody bought the big ring and big dress etc then to divorce under 5 years .


Well, at least you “paid” more than that for it...not sure about the resale value. Of course, P. T. Barnum had a saying about people...


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Might be worthwhile reading this site: https://taylorandhart.com/ca/engage...-people-generally-spend-on-an-engagement-ring



> The nation that spends the most on engagement rings is the US, where the average cost of an engagement ring was at an all-time high in 2017, at $6,351 which is 25% higher than 2011.


Can't recall exactly what I paid, but probably about $100. But that was over 50 years ago for what was quite a nice ring. Diamonds have gone up about 10 fold since then. So maybe $1000 in today's market? In any event, about 7 years later, while anchored in our sailboat, my wife bumped her hand again something. Later she noticed the diamond was missing from the ring. We searched high and low but could not find it. I don't think we even knew enough to consider an insurance claim. Anyway, although I offered, she said she was fine with not having the diamond. Later we were given my mother's ring. That also was lost. Life goes on and those events are not important to us. 

I would buy a nice ring, but don't go overboard. (maybe that's where my wife's diamond went???? )


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

marina628 said:


> My rings are worth more than that





Just a Guy said:


> Well, at least you “paid” more than that for it...


Uh oh - Get ready for the ball to drop! :excitement:


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Not intended to start a flame war...

Just a fact that used diamonds aren’t worth as much as people think. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/12/the-diamond-myth/305491/

Anyone ever try to actually sell one?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

idk, what kind of bride is going to feel all romantic & dearly beloved when her fiancé tells her he's hunting down her engagement ring in pawnshops? 

she might as well throw in the towel & ask him to go find a fence

or she could ditch the cheapskate & go for zero ring with a quality guy instead


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> Not intended to start a flame war...
> 
> Just a fact that used diamonds aren’t worth as much as people think.
> 
> ...


I sold a ring a number of years ago...was bought on sale in NY for ~10k, sold it privately 2 years later...I got 1k...I have the 10k appraisal still


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Eder said:


> I sold a ring a number of years ago...was bought on sale in NY for ~10k, sold it privately 2 years later...I got 1k...I have the 10k appraisal still




my goodness is this the same ring as post No. 10 upthread?

one would have to say your family goes through pas mal de bijoux $10k qui se valorisent bientôt auprès de $1k, une perte choquante

dieu merci que tes actions BCE ne souffrent pas d'une chute plus grave que -18%


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I’m not sure I’d be interested in a woman who only feels romantic about someone who overspends on a shiny rock. Fortunately my wife was more interested in me. 

One wonders if this just sets the trend for the future. Let’s overpay for a house, a car, go on vacations we can’t afford...all in the name of materialism.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

who said anything about overspendng on a shiny rock. What i said would be preferable to a pawnship ring would be "zero" ring from a quality mate. "Zero" means just that, no engagement ring whatsoever.

someone who thinks it's fine to grub unidentified chunks of matter out of a pawnship for his bride's engagement ring might as well be telling her to go dig the family groceries out of a dumpster

either case is distasteful if not gross


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Shiny rock is shiny rock. It came out of the ground. If you pick one up used, put it in a new setting, what’s the big deal? You’d get a bigger rock for less money... how is a pawn shop really any different than a jewelry store? It’s a company selling a shiny rock, probably still overpriced. Still millions of years old, and been owned by other people. 

Some of the old cuts are quite a bit nicer than the modern stuff...

Perhaps your biased would better be served by shopping at an antique store...basically a more expensive pawn shop for snobby people who think pawn shops are beneath them.

Truth be told, I’ve never shopped at a pawn shop, but I’m also not biased against them, or thrift stores, or other places...perhaps one could think of them as recycling as opposed to consumerism.

P.S. I’d challenge anyone to tell the difference between an “old” diamond in a modern setting and a “new” diamond...unless you look for the laser etching which, technically, decreases the look and sparkle.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> my goodness is this the same ring as post No. 10 upthread?
> 
> one would have to say your family goes through pas mal de bijoux $10k qui se valorisent bientôt auprès de $1k, une perte choquante
> 
> dieu merci que tes actions BCE ne souffrent pas d'une chute plus grave que -18%


I was responding to Just a Guy's post upthread asking if anyone had sold one...sorry if I wasted your time. Thought he missed it.
Oh...my BCE will be just fine...added lots more at $53 if you need to check up on me.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I did miss it. 

Should have insured it and lost it or gotten mugged. At least then you would have gotten your money back, or most of it.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

It was my daughters ex that bought it....I just sold it. Was hoping my post would convince some to buy a few ounces of gold or pot in lieu of worthless rocks.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Eder said:


> Was hoping my post would convince some to buy a few ounces of gold or pot in lieu of worthless rocks.




i'm sure it did convince some to reconsider engagement ring purchases! As your posts & jas4's links show, diamonds are the world's worst friend when it comes to gems as a store of value.

still, there should be a happy middle ground in every bridal story. I for one cannot imagine any bride who'd care to receive an engagement ring from a pawnshop or a sack of MJ as a symbol of betrothal.

for couples who desire traditional engagement rings, there's an appealing diamond engagement ring story just upthread that touches all bases, wastes no money & delivers respect to every human being involved, starting with the bride & groom.

https://www.canadianmoneyforum.com/...-Ring-20-25k?p=1982562&viewfull=1#post1982562


the poster chose an ethical canadian diamond. He paid $4000 for a certified stone with a history & a pedigree - a price that was, as Goldilocks would say, not too-high nor too-low but this-one-is-just-right.

the gem arrived in its own hi tech packaging, with a tiny LED light to catch the sparkle when the jewelbox was opened.

there's often a lighthearted, upbeat motif when it comes to engagement stories. But on the serious financial side of things - what cmf forum is focusing on - might one assume a $1 cost per day for goodwill. Thus our poster upthread could write down the cost of the diamond ring to zero in just over 10 years. Any resale value left in the ethical stone after a decade would be an anniversary bonus to the happy couple. 

plus a $4000 cost is low enough that a bridal couple could probably get by without insurance, although madame might want to remove her ring when anchoring boats, repairing car engines, operating pneumatic drills, ski jumping or hang gliding.


.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Funny, I remember a Canadian comedy/music group called the arrogant worms. When they were younger, and performed at the street festivals, they used to sell a little box of dirt as a souvenir. People actually bought it. Now, some of us thought that was rather a waste of money, others didn’t. 

The fact that debeer’s has long conned people in the “value” of a fairly common shiny rock (of which they controlled most of the market) as a “symbol” of “true love” has been a business case study for decades (others may call it a con). 

The fact that a couple of 10 cent leds can further the con is just a sad statement on the state of common sense. Maybe I should sell some in a box with coloured leds, could probably get another grand out of the fools. Later, I could just buy them back for pennies on the dollar, repackage and resell...could be a booming business, especially considering the divorce rate. 

I’m sure it’s coincidence that many divorces are over financial issues...maybe overpriced shiny stones may be a good indicator...the symbol of “true” divorce.

Then again, what would I know...22 years of marriage and I never bought a big shiny rock. I’m such a failure.

I’m still trying to see the difference of buying a diamond from a store...where exactly do most people buy them from? Now, other than snobbery, what difference does the type of store make? What is the difference between a pawn shop, an antique store, a jewelry store, or whatever? You go on about how your example bought a “good” deal, well is a good deal, in your opinion, overpaying at a jewelry store with led boxes, when you may find the same ring for 1/10th the price? Could explain why some people are broke. A store is a store, a product is a product, a deal, however, is not always a deal. Do you only shop at convince stores for groceries because they are more expensive? Must be better, “quality” food. What kind of wife wouldn’t want convince store food, it costs more...only a cheap ******* would shop at a grocery store.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

When I bought my wife's ring, lo these 32 odd years ago, I went to a jeweler and had it custom made. It does have some little chips of diamond, but mainly has a big opal. It cost me $700 back in the day (about $1,400) today, according to the BOC calculator. It is of a unique design, one of a kind. We also had our wedding rings custom made and the wedding and engagement rings nest together in a unique way.

If I were to do the whole thing again, I think I might score a diamond on the resale market and have a new ring designed around it -- or maybe get big-*** ruby or emerald. A good coloured stone is more unique in the engagement ring role and has a better chance of retaining value. The jewelry diamond market is highly manipulated and overpriced. Even industrial diamond is manipulated and overpriced.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

jwsclark19 said:


> I second zoara.ca.....Got a really nice diamond ring for my Wife about 4 years ago from them. D colour, VVS clarity. The diamond was from Canada, conflict free obviously. $4k for the diamond ring. I was very happy with their service. Came in a nice little case with an LED that shines on the ring as you open the case. Their service was excellent. I would imagine for $25k, you could get a stunning ring from them.


Thanks for the recommendation. Great looking site. $5000 seems to get you a nearly perfect diamond (Just under 1 carat, VVS, excellent, G+ colour). The same 5K at Peoples will get you a <1 carat, SI2, K colour, average cut run of the mill lamo diamond.

What is the ideal diamond size? I'm thinking around 0.8 carat? To get larger than 1 carat the price goes way up very rapidly, or you have to buy a lump of coal low grade stone. More than 1 carat seems like it might be in the gaudy category too.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

peterk said:


> Thanks for the recommendation. Great looking site. $5000 seems to get you a nearly perfect diamond (Just under 1 carat, VVS, excellent, G+ colour). The same 5K at Peoples will get you a <1 carat, SI2, K colour, average cut run of the mill lamo diamond.
> 
> What is the ideal diamond size? I'm thinking around 0.8 carat? To get larger than 1 carat the price goes way up very rapidly, or you have to buy a lump of coal low grade stone. More than 1 carat seems like it might be in the gaudy category too.




awww. You are thinking to take the plunge? mille felicitations, always so thrilling to see the best of the young cmffers marry happily

plus you have just the right approach. A wholehearted nod to romance, roses, diamonds, champagne, frivolity & love; but everything well seasoned with the best of down-to-earth common sense.

afaik 1 carat is a huge stone. It's a magnificent gift & i'm sure a recipient would be thrilled to pieces.

on the other hand, the opal ring gardner describes sounds pretty fabulous too. My best friend from college was given an opal engagement ring whose stone had been personally dug at the opal mine down under by her Australian husband-to-be, when he was still a teenager. He'd been carrying the gemstone around, looking for the sweetie who would become his bride, for nearly 10 years.

(still rambling) i didn't have an engagement ring myself. In fact the topic never even came up. We did have handmade wedding rings from an artisan jeweller.

a couple of years later though, my traditionalist mother-in-law gave me a large gold brooch in the shape of a multi-petalled flower. At its centre was one single, very noticeable diamond. As an art design the piece didn't really hang together, but it was clear that the goodhearted lady wanted me to have an engagement diamond after all.

sadly the MIL is no longer alive, but i remember that when we were first married, she also used to give me italian knit dresses from holt renfrew. It was her way of saying Please, not so many Blue Jeans.

.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

There is a reason why the price jumps over 1 carat. Anything smaller is considered cast off. The chips and scrap that comes from cutting the big gems. 1 carat of diamond chips isn’t worth the same as a 1 carat diamond. 

The bigger the diamond, the rarer it is, thus the more people will ask for it. The really large diamonds may actually increase in value because only a handful exist in the world.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Like collectibles and other things, I put jewellery in the "easier to buy than sell" category.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

My guess is that if you spend 25K today, you will have an asset with a $5-7K resale value next week.

Something to think about. Buy a cubic zirconia, invest the rest. Only you will know...not that it really matters.


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## hfp75 (Mar 15, 2018)

I spent $15,000 on both rings... I like jewelry more than her !

I got them at Birks.... probably over priced but I liked it - we are both happy with it.


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## Saniokca (Sep 5, 2009)

I say if you can afford it - buy it. Yes people here will tell you it's an extravagant purchase and a "waste" of money.

FYI when I tried to return mine (broke up with the fiancee the day before the wedding deposit was due) the highest I was offered was 7.5k for a ring which cost me roughly 20k (incl. taxes). If you want to have a few laughs about this forum's response to my purchase check out my diary starting post #19. Doom and gloom was predicted and I made out it just fine.
https://www.canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/1071-My-diary/page2


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...vorce-ring-how-much-price-study-a8435646.html

Research indicating the more you spend on the ring, the higher the risk of divorce.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Frankly, I would be disgusted if a fiancé bought me a $20,000 engagement ring. Unless he was very wealthy, I would assume that he had no sense about money and, therefore, not good husband material. If he was wealthy and money was no object, that might be different, but even then I can think of better ways to spend $20,000.


Note that I'm a 75-year-old widow so I'm speaking strictly theoretically!


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Especially if it was only really worth $7000, he was on a tight budget and threw away $13000 on a shiny rock? I just don’t understand some people...

I actually assumed, from that thread he used the ring for his current wife...but he may have sold it to buy another one...it never actually said, the ring just disappeared from the posts.

If I said I burned 10k in the backyard, people would think I’m crazy though.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Karen said:


> Frankly, I would be disgusted if a fiancé bought me a $20,000 engagement ring. Unless he was very wealthy, I would assume that he had no sense about money and, therefore, not good husband material. If he was wealthy and money was no object, that might be different, but even then I can think of better ways to spend $20,000.
> 
> 
> Note that I'm a 75-year-old widow so I'm speaking strictly theoretically!




hi there Karen - always very happy to see you here

now to the topic please consider this: blowing 20k once on an engagement ring is likely to happen only once in a guy's lifetime. The probability is high that depreciation etc will serve as a timely lesson for him.

on the other hand blowing 20k on a bad investment is more likely to happen several times. Losing 20k or more in an ill-timed RE adventure could happen. Losing 20k salary or more after being laid off could easily happen.

me i think onlookers can gladly allow for a once-in-a-lifetime hearts & roses fling w the diamond, without wagging the finger.

me i still like the $4-6k diamond. Not too big. Not too small. Just right. The goldilocks diamond. Enuf to make a beautiful statement. Not enuf for a well-employed young person to fret about.



.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Saniokca said:


> I say if you can afford it - buy it. Yes people here will tell you it's an extravagant purchase and a "waste" of money.
> 
> FYI when I tried to return mine (broke up with the fiancee the day before the wedding deposit was due) the highest I was offered was 7.5k for a ring which cost me roughly 20k (incl. taxes). If you want to have a few laughs about this forum's response to my purchase check out my diary starting post #19. Doom and gloom was predicted and I made out it just fine.
> 
> https://www.canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/1071-My-diary/page2




link ^^ is to a wonderful, positive, upbeat diary thread from sanioka. It's a role model for 20 somethings everywhere.

as all can see, san started very young. Had fun, travelled, passed his exams, a few gfs, good sense of humour, started to save, good job, travelled some more, promotions at work, kept on saving/investing, bonuses, wedding, kids, always that great sense of humour.

today, as best i can make out, he's still less than 35 years of age. Excellent career, proud father of a young family, net worth in the 7 figures. No one could do better.

along the way, some folks lectured sanioka when, as a young student, he bought a $20k diamond ring for his then-sweetie. She soon disappeared from his life, but - evidently he was already a practical man - he managed to keep the ring. Long-time cmffers on here who want a really good laugh should follow san's thread link back to the-royal-mail c. 2010. Too funny. Nagnagnagnagnagnag. Alas, these days in 2018, some folks here are still acting the-royal-mail.

sanioka it seems to me that the only thing you haven't thought of doing is teaching/mentoring. Your own kids might seem like enough of a challenge at present but some day i think you'd be good at helping young people to succeed in your profession.


.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Yeah, no one would criticize someone who tried day trading for the first time and lost 20k, or overpaid for real estate, maybe buying a 50k car when they have mounds of student debt, and lost more...people on this board only criticize diamond purchases not stupid decisions based on emotions and the lack of common sense.

Warning someone that these are unwise choices is just being petty and comes from jealousy I’m sure.


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## MillionDollarJourney (Apr 3, 2009)

If the ring is $20-$25k, how much will the wedding cost?? I'd say pick up a decent ring at Costco, who will know the difference?


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Hi to you, too, humble_pie! I agree with you that a $4 - 6k diamond is ideal for someone who can afford it if you must have one! The engagement ring from my first marriage still sits in a drawer where it has sat for the 55 years since my divorce! I remarried very happily twice after that, but sadly, both my second and third husbands died. But in both cases, I told my husbands that I did not want an engagement ring; they argued briefly (but I suspect were secretly relieved!).


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## Saniokca (Sep 5, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> Especially if it was only really worth $7000, he was on a tight budget and threw away $13000 on a shiny rock? I just don’t understand some people...
> 
> I actually assumed, from that thread he used the ring for his current wife...but he may have sold it to buy another one...it never actually said, the ring just disappeared from the posts.
> 
> If I said I burned 10k in the backyard, people would think I’m crazy though.


Personal finance is just that - "Personal". A lot of people who are prudent in many ways spend on things I just don't understand. The question is are they doing ok and have a plan or are they living paycheque to paycheque?

To answer your question - I used a $55 ring from The Bay to propose (I knew she would say yes  - we were living together and not trying to not get pregnant) and that we can go and design one she wants (budget was about the same from what I remember, 20k). She knew that I kept the first ring and suggested we use the diamond to put into a new ring. We did just that and added some small ones around the big one. I think it cost about 3-4k.


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## Saniokca (Sep 5, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> link ^^ is to a wonderful, positive, upbeat diary thread from sanioka. It's a role model for 20 somethings everywhere.
> 
> as all can see, san started very young. Had fun, travelled, passed his exams, a few gfs, good sense of humour, started to save, good job, travelled some more, promotions at work, kept on saving/investing, bonuses, wedding, kids, always that great sense of humour.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your kind words.

Yes I love going through the thread about once a year just to read the doom and gloom predicted. Our incomes and the fact that we couldn't get pregnant for about 5 years certainly helped us accumulate what seems now like an outrageous amount of money.

I tried helping out a few friends with their finances (i.e. they only need to do small tweaks to do very well in a relatively short period of time) but I found that they listen, agree and then follow their own way. Most have decent incomes so will probably do ok.


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## Saniokca (Sep 5, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> Yeah, no one would criticize someone who tried day trading for the first time and lost 20k, or overpaid for real estate, maybe buying a 50k car when they have mounds of student debt, and lost more...people on this board only criticize diamond purchases not stupid decisions based on emotions and the lack of common sense.
> 
> Warning someone that these are unwise choices is just being petty and comes from jealousy I’m sure.


My ring decision is so insignificant in comparison to having a wife who can make a six figures income sit a home for 5-6 years and them myself (also six figures) taking two leaves of 35 weeks and 63 weeks (essentially 2 years). You know how many people (friends, coworkers, and especially family) think I am crazy? I just smile


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Technically I’ve got no problem with individuals overpaying on stuff (don’t expect you’ll get a lot of respect for your financial acumen though)...my original point was to buy a “used” diamond and have it reset. 

That, of course, set off a storm over how stupid an idea that was compared to overpaying for a shiny rock. Somehow a better priced rock (7k as opposed to 25k to use your example of an “unused”, but not used for the original purpose shiny rock) isn’t as good as a brand new, obvious, waste of money (unless people feel losing 18k the minute you buy it is worthwhile).

P.S. not sure what a ring has to do with income, but some people need to show off that their successful I guess...insecurity, bragging rights, whatever. Celebrities spend money like water, and usually wind up broke a lot of times...have a lot of bling though to show off their success. They tend to make milllions too, beating out your measly 6 figures.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

I don't think Saniokca overpaid at all. In fact, he went cheap when one considers that the "Pink Legacy" diamond sold at auction this week in Geneva for USD50 million. Now that will make a fine engagement ring.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I’m sure the two diamond are totally equivalent. The real 7k appraisal was probably just a crook jeweller.


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## Saniokca (Sep 5, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> Technically I’ve got no problem with individuals overpaying on stuff (don’t expect you’ll get a lot of respect for your financial acumen though)...my original point was to buy a “used” diamond and have it reset.
> 
> That, of course, set off a storm over how stupid an idea that was compared to overpaying for a shiny rock. Somehow a better priced rock (7k as opposed to 25k to use your example of an “unused”, but not used for the original purpose shiny rock) isn’t as good as a brand new, obvious, waste of money (unless people feel losing 18k the minute you buy it is worthwhile).
> 
> P.S. not sure what a ring has to do with income, but some people need to show off that their successful I guess...insecurity, bragging rights, whatever. Celebrities spend money like water, and usually wind up broke a lot of times...have a lot of bling though to show off their success. They tend to make milllions too, beating out your measly 6 figures.


Not everything is black and white - people on this forum tend to overreact.

I do agree about second hand diamonds and (clearly) have no problem with that but I think most people do.

Not sure I get the P.S. comment about incomes but the price of a ring is the same as price of anything else - car/house/clothes/electronics/food. It's all tied to how much you make (or can borrow). My point is if the luxury spend does not affect your life too much then what's the problem?


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## Saniokca (Sep 5, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> I don't think Saniokca overpaid at all. In fact, he went cheap when one considers that the "Pink Legacy" diamond sold at auction this week in Geneva for USD50 million. Now that will make a fine engagement ring.





Just a Guy said:


> I’m sure the two diamond are totally equivalent. The real 7k appraisal was probably just a crook jeweller.


I'm waiting until mine hits 51M... pounds. Have Sotheby's on speed dial


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## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

I went to an independent jeweller who has a relationship with wholesalers. I paid around 7500 - my diamond was high quality, colourless, etc and .8 carat. the price difference between .8 and a 1 carat is generally susbtantial as it is an even value and harder to find. i also asked them to throw in around 600-700 of gold jewelry as well. overall its how you negotiate. if you want to do it, go for it. but tbh, dont come here and lord over everyone because you think its cool to drop 25k on a ring.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

It may also have been a mistake to publish in the frugality section expecting people to endorse it.

Hey, I just realized the answer to the OP should have been but it from Saniokca. He could have gotten his 25k ring for 7k, brand new, never used, and all the save the whales parts to go with it.


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## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

Just a Guy said:


> It may also have been a mistake to publish in the frugality section expecting people to endorse it.
> 
> Hey, I just realized the answer to the OP should have been but it from Saniokca. He could have gotten his 25k ring for 7k, brand new, never used, and all the save the whales parts to go with it.


i mean unless you define the word frugality. tbh i think its just a brag post by op.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

redsgomarching said:


> I went to an independent jeweller who has a relationship with wholesalers. I paid around 7500 - my diamond was high quality, colourless, etc and .8 carat. the price difference between .8 and a 1 carat is generally susbtantial as it is an even value and harder to find. i also asked them to throw in around 600-700 of gold jewelry as well. overall its how you negotiate. if you want to do it, go for it. but tbh, dont come here and lord over everyone because you think its cool to drop 25k on a ring.




i'm fairly sure the OP is long gone. Nobody gave him the referral to the cut-throat diamond wholesaler he wanted; so phffffft he was outta here

the ultra engagement ring braggart in cmf forum was some years ago though. He posted that the only reason he wanted his fiancee to wear a gigantic sparkling rock was so that everybody would be able to instantly recognize how much money he had. IIRC his diamond had a $25k price tag.

like the OP here, $25k-showoff-rock is long gone

i totally understand the long-marrieds here who say a diamond engagement ring doesn't mean anything in the end, either monetarily or emotionally. I never had one myself & certainly never wanted one.

but the younger people i see in this thread who have ventured forth to post - in the face of withering scorn - that they bought a modest jewel for their affianced were obviously all trying to do something really nice for somebody else. Including sanioka, who managed to jump the diamond hurdle twice.

i say more power to em. Since when did doing something nice for somebody else become a no-no?

.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> awww. You are thinking to take the plunge? mille felicitations, always so thrilling to see the best of the young cmffers marry happily
> 
> plus you have just the right approach. A wholehearted nod to romance, roses, diamonds, champagne, frivolity & love; but everything well seasoned with the best of down-to-earth common sense.
> 
> afaik 1 carat is a huge stone. It's a magnificent gift & i'm sure a recipient would be thrilled to pieces.


Sigh - seems that way. She's been waiting long enough, that's for sure, and I haven't been able to come up with a good enough reason to boot her out! haha 



redsgomarching said:


> I went to an independent jeweller who has a relationship with wholesalers. I paid around 7500 - my diamond was high quality, colourless, etc and .8 carat. the price difference between .8 and a 1 carat is generally susbtantial as it is an even value and harder to find. i also asked them to throw in around 600-700 of gold jewelry as well. overall its how you negotiate. if you want to do it, go for it. but tbh, dont come here and lord over everyone because you think its cool to drop 25k on a ring.


That seems to be about what the best online dealers are going for too. Zoara and James Allen being the top ones, from what I can gather. I am looking at a IF,F, excellent cut, 3/4 carat for about $5k, plus 1-2k for the ring, plus whatever the hell taxes/duties costs *shudders*.

The sweet-spot good value buy is probably an I Colour VS2 0.9 carat for about the same price... but really, 0.9 vs 0.7 carat is not a huge difference. Carat is the weight of the whole 3-D diamond, so 0.9 carat is a 15% larger surface area than a 0.7, and is only 0.4mm larger diameter (6.15mm vs 5.75mm). I think there's more impact/message is saying that she has a "Flawless" diamond, than, for the same price, a "pretty good" diamond that is 0.4mm larger...


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

A jeweler acquaintance of ours always says the very worst place to buy a diamond ring is is shopping center jewelry stores or one of the well know chains. Markup will be 3X. If you are see a ring for $24K, their cost will be $7-8K. They will sell for $13-$24K depending on the customer, time of year, age of inventory.

Agreed. Buy the stone from someone you trust, then buy the setting. If you do not know any, phone a few insurance adjusters and ask who they use.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Can't believe all the negative comments on this thread. What is it, envy? ego? 

The poor guy is just looking for some recommendations. He never asked for opinions if it was a good idea or not. 
Its clear that no one here has any knowledge or insights on the matter. Why respond then?

I, myself, have no recommendation for the OP. I just wanted to point out that if this is the support and advice this forum has to offer, might as well shut it down before it turns into the Canadian Shaming Forum....or is it already too late?


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## yousufj56 (Oct 4, 2018)

Fain87 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Looking to get a diamond engagement ring possibly within 3-6 months for my girlfriend. Looking to spend between 20-25k. Anyone have good referrals or links on a good source on diamonds? Willing to travel within north america as well to make the purchase if needed. Can pay cash as well but looking for Something similar to Cartier quality.
> 
> I am in Toronto region currently.


3 of my uncles own multiple jewelry stores each. When they were first starting out their business, i was in the process of getting married; They took me to a wholesaler called "Marys Jewelry" which is located in downtown Toronto. 

I paid, 3 thousand dollars for a very very nice ring that was appraised at 11 thousand. I got a legitimate appraisal form and everything. I even then took my ring to other jewelry stores after purchase and they confirmed the retail value at 11K. 

This wholesaler is not open to the general public. BUT, if you're not shy, make some business cards and go there acting like you have a shop and buy the ring you want. You would end up saving yourself about 14k. 

I 100% guarantee you that this isn't B.S. The suggested markup for diamonds is about 3X the wholesale value. 

55 Queen St E, Suite #1210
Toronto, ON M5C 1R6
Tel: 416-368-8240

They have multiple security doors with cameras to look at you before letting you in. So look presentable and dont be scared.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Ask an insurance adjuster where they send their clients. 

One thing for certain....it will not be to a mall jewelry store or probably any store front jewelry store.


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## newfoundlander61 (Feb 6, 2011)

"I 100% guarantee you that this isn't B.S. The suggested markup for diamonds is about 3X the wholesale value. " Very true, my wife worked in the diamond sale business for most of her life.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> Ask an insurance adjuster where they send their clients.
> 
> One thing for certain....it will not be to a mall jewelry store or probably any store front jewelry store.


Actually ian, like many things it all depends on the relationship you have with your jeweller. I buy jewellery for my wife from a small town jeweller. We are on a first name basis with the family (family business, 3rd generation). We are not friends as such but we have a good relationship as customers. If I go in to have a new battery put in my watch, there is never any charge for it. If I go in and buy a nice piece of costume jewellery for a hundred dollars, I pay the sticker price and it is nicely gift wrapped. If I go in and look at a diamond tennis bracelet with an appraised (with certificate) value of $5,000, they offer it to me for $3000 without my having to ask. I know the markup is around 3 times as yousufj56 mentions. So I know they will have paid around $15-1800 for it and at $3,000 they are still quite happy with their profit. I am quite happy for them to make a reasonable profit, I like supporting local business rather than some chain store and so everyone is happy.

My wife has two Rado watches. One has diamonds, the other doesn't. The first was bought in Switzerland for around $3k while the second was bought in our small town jewellers. The one bought in Switzerland was bought at full retail. The second was one my wife admired in our local store and retailed for $5,000. Our jeweller was well aware my wife already owned a Rado, they had cleaned it and replaced the battery in it for her before. So when my wife admired the more expensive model, he quietly spoke to me out of her hearing and said, 'I can have it gift wrapped and ready for you to pick up tomorrow. Your price will be $2500.'

But yes, a mall jewellery store in a chain, is not where you are likely to get such prices. Just don't count out all, 'store front jewellery stores'.

What people have to realize with jewellery is that it is not about the price or the 'value'. You buy it because you can, not because you can 'justify' the price. No one can really justify buying jewellery at any price. It is after all, simply an ornament. My wife doesn't need two Rados ( or need even one). But she has two because we can afford to buy them if we want to. She calls one her 'everyday' and the other her 'dress up'.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We deal with a small jeweler. He does repairs, does a great deal of custom work, he takes our unwanted gold, sells it to a refiner, and takes 10 percent for his trouble. I was in his out of the way store/workroom six or seven months ago and did not notice any diamonds in his showcase. So I asked. 

His reply was that he tells his customers to buy with the desired size/quality of stone from Costco. Bring it to him. He will change the setting, provide a credit for the unwanted setting. Why? He says he says his customers can buy the product cheaper at Costco than the can buy it wholesale. And the quality is high. I found this very strange but he has been in the business for years.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> We deal with a small jeweler. He does repairs, does a great deal of custom work, he takes our unwanted gold, sells it to a refiner, and takes 10 percent for his trouble. I was in his out of the way store/workroom six or seven months ago and did not notice any diamonds in his showcase. So I asked.
> 
> His reply was that he tells his customers to buy with the desired size/quality of stone from Costco. Bring it to him. He will change the setting, provide a credit for the unwanted setting. Why? He says he says his customers can buy the product cheaper at Costco than the can buy it wholesale. And the quality is high. I found this very strange but he has been in the business for years.


That does sound really weird ian. How would the average buyer at Costco know enough to be able to judge the quality? Just take Costco's word for it? Do they provide a certificate as to the 'four C's'? http://www.adiamondbuyingguide.com/diamondgrading.html

Have you ever actually gone to Costco and checked any of this? I've never actually ever even been in a Costco.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Costco’s policy is to do only a 15% markup on all products. The warehouses are designed to break even with profits coming from membership sales. 

What gets me is all these fools who think the appraised values have any meaning when the sale price is actually less than 1/3 the price. I have a bridge that’s been appraised for millions, can I interest you guys in it?

A lot of the real estate I buy is appraised much higher than what I pay yet, when it was on the market, no one was willing to pay that price. I certainly wouldn’t. Do I take the appraised values seriously? Only if the bank is lending me money, after that I only care about tangible things like how much they generate each month. The only time I know their actual value is when someone cuts me a cheque.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Exactly. Jewelry appraisals are worthless. They have become an industry sales tool. They have been a boon to insurers. You get a larger insurance premium on a ring appraised at 10K than you do on the same ring that might have a replacement cost of $3500.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

They are there to boost egos.

The fools go about flashing their “25k” rings...living in expensive neighbourhoods, mortgaged to the hilt (and about to experience a major correction), driving heavily financed cars (which lose massive amounts of value once driven off the lots)...eat in fancy restaurants paid on credit cards...then they wind up declaring bankruptcy and complaining about how unfair the world is...

Sucked in by marketing telling you how to look successful...here’s a shiny rock worth 25k, trust us. People are too concerned about looking successful and too lazy to do the work required to be successful. 

Then there are the people who are actually wealthy who buy modest, good quality items and actually pay for them. They invest in real things, are looking for things that make them money and generally don’t care what the rest of the world thinks about them and how they look.


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## Onagoth (May 12, 2017)

lol...

My wife and I got married right after school and both of our wedding rings cost less than $500. Now, 11 years later with 3 boys, neither of us give a **** about flashy jewelry. But, what we do have is a fairly happy home, a growing retirement portfolio, a growing savings fund for our kids education and emergency money stashed away.

We're not always the best at being frugal, but we've done ok so far avoiding a lot of the materialism we see around us.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> That does sound really weird ian. How would the average buyer at Costco know enough to be able to judge the quality? Just take Costco's word for it? Do they provide a certificate as to the 'four C's'? http://www.adiamondbuyingguide.com/diamondgrading.html
> 
> Have you ever actually gone to Costco and checked any of this? I've never actually ever even been in a Costco.


Not weird at all. Yes, they give a full appraisal certificate. It also is gaurenteed to be at least the amount on the appraisal, if you want to go and get an independent appraisal or you can return it.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

A number of years ago I bought my spouse diamond studs from Costco. Our jeweler told us that it would be impossible for him to meet the same quality/price point.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> They are there to boost egos.
> 
> The fools go about flashing their “25k” rings...living in expensive neighbourhoods, mortgaged to the hilt (and about to experience a major correction), driving heavily financed cars (which lose massive amounts of value once driven off the lots)...eat in fancy restaurants paid on credit cards...then they wind up declaring bankruptcy and complaining about how unfair the world is...
> 
> ...


Well while I can agree that people who fit your descriptions do exist, I don't think there is much point in such generalizations other than for someone who does not buy 'shiny rocks' etc. to justify their own actions.

I buy my wife 'shiny rocks' etc. because I CAN. I always remember sitting in a Scottish pub years ago and a guy came in, ordered his pint of beer and asked the bartender/owner, 'who's driving that classic car parked right outside your front door?' The owner pointed at me and said, 'it's his everyday driver.' Then the guy turned to me and asked, 'how come you are driving a car like that as your everyday driver?' 

What he really meant was, why are you putting miles on a classic and parking it on the street where someone can scratch it, etc. when most people would be treating it like a baby and only taking it out on sunny Sunday afternoon's for a top down drive, etc.

Before I could reply, another regular local spoke up and said, 'because he can.'

The point being that you do not have to justify everything you do and particularly when there is in fact no real LOGICAL justification anyone can come up with. No one can justify driving a Ferrari in financial terms, either you can afford to or you can't, it's as simple as that. But just because someone chooses to buy 'shiny rocks' or whatever else is not financially justifiable, does not mean they are 'fools' about to 'declare bankruptcy', etc. Nor are those who do not splurge on nice things once in a while, any smarter or 'actually wealthy' as a result of their actions.

A common argument I have seen on this subject many times in travel forums, is what kind of hotel someone stays in. One person says, 'the wise traveller stays in average 3 star hotels that provide sufficient comfort for a reasonable price.' Someone else says, 'I prefer to stay in at least a 4 star and usually a 5 star hotel which provides more of everything etc.' Still another says I stay in hostel dorms or rent cheap Airbnb accomodation because it saves me money which I then put towards my early retirement, etc.'

What all such arguments assume is that what you value and can afford is what everyone else values and can afford. If I can stay in 5 star hotels AND retire before age 50, who is some 60 year old, hoping to retire at age 65, to tell me that I am wasting my money? 

There are people like me Just a Guy, who actually pay cash for a house, a car, a diamond bracelet, a 5 star hotel AND who invest in real things, look for things that make them money and generally don't care what the rest of the world thinks about them and how they look. They do so, because they CAN.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I don’t deny there are those who can, I’m saying a large majority of the ones I know who do, can’t and a majority of those I know who can don’t. 

Of the ones who can, they certainly don’t value them the same way as those who can’t. I don’t see those who can bragging about how much it’s worth...those are usually those who can’t.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

You CAN do whatever you want, just don't post about it in the frugality forum. 

Should we add a conspicuous consumption forum, or does that go against the ethos of this place? :tongue:


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I actually consider myself to be a fairly 'frugal' person nathan79. Again, it is a question of what one individual considers frugal vs. what another thinks that word means.

If you were to take a look at the money mustache forum, you will find people who are retiring on an income of $12k per year at age 30 and who would consider anyone who says they need $30k per year as being a very 'unfrugal' kind of person. 

I believe that buying a new car is not a 'frugal' thing to do. Buying used is far more justifiable financially. However, I don't want to drive a rusted out clunker, regardless of how mechanically sound it might still be. I want it to at least look half decent. Does that make me 'unfrugal' or am I still being frugal in that I don't want to spend more than I need to spend to be happy with what I drive?

You obviously have a belief as to what the definition of 'frugal' is to YOU but that does not mean everyone has the same definition as you do. Frugal to me means you do not believe in wasting money. Then you have to determine what 'wasting' means to you and that will always vary by individual.

So someone may be being 'frugal' in how they spend their $12k per year income and someone else may be being 'frugal' in how they spend their $120k per year income. Chances are they won't both drive the relatively same car or spend the same amount on a meal in a restaurant, or on jewellery, or anything else but both can indeed be 'frugal' with how they spend the money they have to spend.

And both should be entitled to post in this 'Frugal' part of the forum.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Hey nathan79, here is a typical frugal type question to consider.

Where can I get the best deal on a used Ferrari?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Frugality never equates to where can I buy an item that will cost me 2-3x it’s questional “value”. Gee I only over paid by 1.5x what a deal...and it can sit on my finger and sparkle.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> A number of years ago I bought my spouse diamond studs from Costco. Our jeweler told us that it would be impossible for him to meet the same quality/price point.


Also to Plugging Along as you also suggested COSTCO.

Following up on another thread about Canadian Tire, I just discovered that COSTCO was fined $19 million in the USA for selling COUNTERFEIT Tiffany & Co rings. So much for trusting them. There is no doubt COSTCO 'intended to deceive' their customers.
https://globalnews.ca/news/3669444/costco-tiffany-engagement-rings-lawsuit/

I didn't find anything to say whether they were required to take back the FAKE rings and refund the customers' money.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Hey nathan79, here is a typical frugal type question to consider.
> 
> Where can I get the best deal on a used Ferrari?


If you were really looking to be frugal, Ferrari prefers to sell this new vehicles to only previous owners of Ferrari. In fact, many Ferrari’s go for higher used than new . Partly because people just want a ferra I, that their first often needs to be used, and limited editions tend to appreciate. I actually know a few people how buy Ferrari’s drive them for a year or two the resell them. Also, Ferrari will seek to someone new in certain cases where you can demonstrate you can handle the power. 

A more frugal way to get a Ferrari would be to take a professional race car car which is under >$20k (or used to be) and the buy a new Ferrari. This was seriously the strategy one of them was telling me for them to save money. I laighed at the idea but even multi millionaires want value for their money. I personally think they wanted that particular new model.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Also to Plugging Along as you also suggested COSTCO.
> 
> Following up on another thread about Canadian Tire, I just discovered that COSTCO was fined $19 million in the USA for selling COUNTERFEIT Tiffany & Co rings. So much for trusting them. There is no doubt COSTCO 'intended to deceive' their customers.
> https://globalnews.ca/news/3669444/costco-tiffany-engagement-rings-lawsuit/
> ...


The rings were not fake, real diamond, it sounds like in a Tiffany style. The law suit was for infringement of brand. I would be curious if they sold the rings in the Tiffany blue box and jewelry sack. If not, that would be one clue that it was Tiffany style vs authentic Tiffany. I agree though it’s very misleading and wrong for them to do it.

It doesn’t mean that the diamonds that Costco sells are not real. They are.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

As in the thread where people were bashing Canadian Tire us generally ripping people off with un-needed auto repairs and suggesting Costco as a better choice for buying tires Plugging Along, my point is that Costco are not to be trusted in all things any more than Canadian Tire is not to be trusted. One person actually wrote that s/he wouldn't even buy gas from Canadian Tire. In fact, where there is a filling station at a Canadian Tire, they are a separate franchisee, not the same one as the stores.

In the end, it always comes down to who do you trust and trust is something that exists between 2 people. No one company can be held up as 'you can trust them' any more than any other company. Put your trust in people, not a company name.


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

I kind of disagree as I feel there's value in corporate brand and reputation. While no company is perfect and all are prone to making mistakes, how they handle mistakes and treat me as a customer guide me on where I want to spend my dollars. Obviously staff play a big part of being ambassadors of your brand but corporate culture and policy plays a part in the staff they hire and how they act. 
For the sake of transparency, I too hate Canadian Tire due to a bad repair in the past and a couple of subpar products I've purchased from them. And I love Costco too who have a great return policy.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> As in the thread where people were bashing Canadian Tire us generally ripping people off with un-needed auto repairs and suggesting Costco as a better choice for buying tires Plugging Along, my point is that Costco are not to be trusted in all things any more than Canadian Tire is not to be trusted. One person actually wrote that s/he wouldn't even buy gas from Canadian Tire. In fact, where there is a filling station at a Canadian Tire, they are a separate franchisee, not the same one as the stores.
> 
> In the end, it always comes down to who do you trust and trust is something that exists between 2 people. No one company can be held up as 'you can trust them' any more than any other company. Put your trust in people, not a company name.


Trust can be both for individuals and for companies. I would still disagree that Canadian tire is as trust worthy as Costco. I have purchased tires from CT once, when I didn’t know better,. Surprise, they told me I had an alignment issue, I didn’t. Then when there were problems with the tires, all I got was excuses and a run around. I have purchased several sets of tires with Costco, when I had a flat, I brought it in and they fixed it. 

I just finished my Xmas returns today. Is saw a person bring in a well used dishwasher to Costco, I think I heard about 3 years, returned it, got the money back, and I saw him wheeling out a new dishwasher. Costco has an amazing return policy, (a little too amazing in my opinion) but they stand behind their products. Canadian tire, not so much. I brought back a defective item after one use, and they gave me a hard time about it being out of the package and being unsellable. 

I will buy the occasion thing at Canadian tire, but it’s a crap shoot on thei Return policy. Costco, never a problem. I can honestly say that I trust Costco as a retailer.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> me i still like the $4-6k diamond. Not too big. Not too small. Just right. The goldilocks diamond. Enuf to make a beautiful statement. Not enuf for a well-employed young person to fret about.
> 
> .


I only blew the bank a little bit. $7k all in all, but it is clearly a more gorgeous ring than average and looks way nicer than what I've seen on all the other engaged ladies. She likes it. 

I know it was the right choice, because I am exactly equally anguished between two thoughts. The first, "what an idiot - I should have just spent 3k and it would have still been a nice ring and she'd hardly know the difference" and the second, "I should have just blown 12k and got the perfect ring that I really wanted to get with no regrets". Since I can't choose between the two ends, I know I successfully went right down the middle.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

peterk said:


> She likes it.
> 
> ... [re price] I successfully went right down the middle.



there you go. A perfect choice. Nice enough to make a truly magnificent presentation on an all-important occasion. Not expensive enough to shed tears if somehow by the remotest chance things don't work out perfectly.

there are a lot of things we do in life that cost superfluous $$. Take the wearing of ties for example, some could say it's a bit ridic; but i bet folks still wear ties to important business meetings in Fort Mac.

it's true one could buy a 2nd hand tie at a church rummage sale but it would have nothing in common with an italian heavy silk twill signature tie. I haven't checked for years now but it wouldn't surprise if one of those numbers signed Dior or Armani runs $350 in our sinking CAD currency these days. To my mind, for a dressup occasion for a male in my family, there'd be no choice.


BTW slightly off-topic ... but have you heard that those arty 3-tier designer wedding cakes are costing $750-$1,200 in toronto? here's where your advanced culinary skills might shine. I'm a big fan of homemade wedding detaiis, would there be any chance that you & fiancee could bake, assemble, ice & decorate your own wedding cake? 

it would take some study & real-life kitchen practice in advance, but some of those artistic wedding cakes we see these days are far too gorgeous to eat


.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Ahaa, well no probably not. I prefer to make the entrees, not dessert. She is a pretty good little baker though, but we are going to be trying to pull off a cross-country-canada wedding with as few trips as possible (held in Ontario)!

Besides, I want wedding pie. Pie is way better than cake, and not gorgeous enough to not eat!


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Know lots of people who feel compelled to show off their success. Fancy cars, big house, shiny rocks on fingers, big weddings...only problem is they work like a dog to try and keep up appearances...anything goes wrong and they are in trouble. There’s a reason the average Canadian can’t withstand an unexpected $2000 expense. 

There’s a good brag thread over on the other forum asking how people did last year, most posed losses from the looks, but some losses were better than others...so people can brag about that. 

Meanwhile, the truly successful people go on with their lives, living on their own terms, doing what they want, not caring about what others think...they tend to have a lot of quality in their lives, but not a lot of useless bling. Maybe that’s why they are successful, but what would I know.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> Know lots of people who feel compelled to show off their success. Fancy cars, big house, shiny rocks on fingers, big weddings...only problem is they work like a dog to try and keep up appearances...anything goes wrong and they are in trouble. There’s a reason the average Canadian can’t withstand an unexpected $2000 expense.
> 
> There’s a good brag thread over on the other forum asking how people did last year, most posed losses from the looks, but some losses were better than others...so people can brag about that.
> 
> Meanwhile, the truly successful people go on with their lives, living on their own terms, doing what they want, not caring about what others think...they tend to have a lot of quality in their lives, but not a lot of useless bling. Maybe that’s why they are successful, but what would I know.


Well you got one thing right, what would you know.

I don't know why some people seem to want to try and insist everyone who does one thing they don't like/approve of/whatever, must fit into a little box they can describe.

Not everyone who is successful and can afford to spend money on something you want to denigrate by using adjectives like 'fancy, big, shiny' etc. work like dogs to keep up appearances. Nor are they all average Canadians who can't withstand an unexpected $2k expense. Yet you write as if that is a known fact. You're WRONG.

My wife and I can afford a 'fancy car' although we don't currently own one (but have in the past owned several), we can afford a 'big house' but again don't currently own one as there is only the 2 of us and so no need for 'big'. My wife has quite a few 'shiny rocks' though, along with other items of jewellery that cost in the $1000s each, not $100s. As for unexpected expenses, we've had a few of those over the years, some in the $10s or $20s of thousands and we paid them in cash. An expense of $2k hardly qualifies as noteworthy at all. And we certainly don't 'work like dogs', we don't work at all and I haven't worked at all since I was in my early 40s. Nor did I ever work 'like a dog' when I did work.

We could I suppose brag that our income for last year exceeded our income from the year before as it has every year for the past couple of decades, even though I don't even invest in the stock market. Oh wait, is that where the people you are talking about got their losses from? 

We 'get on with our lives, living on our terms, doing what we want, not caring about what others think........tend to have a lot of quality in our lives but not a lot of useless bling'. Of course, your idea of 'useless bling' and our idea of that term may differ considerably. 

At this time of year, given your attitude, I am reminded of Scrooge. Money isn't for hording, it's for spending. The only caveat is that it is not wise to spend money you don't actually have. That is a different story altogether but don't try to put everyone who can *afford* to spend money in that same little box.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

More than half of Canadians are $200 away from not being able to meet their debt obligations...

https://globalnews.ca/news/3434447/...r-less-away-from-not-being-able-to-pay-bills/

Sorry, you got me it was $2400. 

Just because you can do something, doesn’t mean others can. Two of you don’t fit, about 17M do.

I’d also point out that you seem to fit my model of successful lifestyle than the one you are trying to defend.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

We are 11 pages in and perhaps I already made this comment but I cannot for the life of me, understand, why two people, planning a financial partnership, would want to waste any excess amount of money on something so physically useless as a wedding ring.

I suppose if you are much later in your years, and you already have a paid off house and your kids are grown and out of post secondary school and you have twice the money you will ever need in your lifetime, then sure, waste a wad on a wedding ring. Assuming most people do not fit that category, anything higher then $3K to $4K is simply not very bright. That money, at a young age and the start of a partnership, could go a long way to providing financial security to you and your future family. If my fiancé was the type that thought it was $20K well spent, with both of us in that younger situation I just described, then it pretty much would tell me loud and clear, this is not the right partner for me. I imagine my opinion, screamed loud enough, to ensure that the girls that disagreed with me, and I imagine there are many, avoided me like the plague and I can't thank them enough for that.

My wife and I are both enjoying our financial security, derived not from high incomes in life but mostly from not making dumb money decisions. We rarely wear our rings anyway and our bond comes from something much deeper and stronger then a diamond.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I will defend some sparkly diamond bling lovers, being one myself. My parents immigrated from another country. Back then, they were only allowed legally leave with about the equivalent $100 in cash. As part of the culture and a way to get money of the country, it was put in the form of gold jewelry and precious stones. My parents, when finally reunited as a family also brought my grandmother here. For whatever reason (they had a good explanation and it made sense), they bought 3 diamonds, one for each my two older siblings, and my mother, which was to be passed on to me when she no longer desired it. They were and are all beautiful and near perfect (4cs) diamonds. They were passed on to us when my older siblings purposed, and after I got married (being that I would get my own ring from my fiancé). As they were given to us, they are meant to be a reminder of the hardship my parents and grandmother went thru to arrive in Canada, and hopefully passed down to future generations. It also served as insurance that if we fell upon hard times, then we could always sell the jewelry. 

In really good times, my mother would still buy expensive jewelry as her investment. Something that could be sold later if needed. It was quite odd, she would literally buy pure gold coins and mint them as jewelry. Every time a grand child was born, gold coins were bought and mount. It was her simple way of investing for the future. Logically, I know a lot better, and we all told our mother not to do it, but old traditions die hard. So now each one of the kids has 'odd' looking pieces of gold coin jewelry that can literally be sold in bad times. I will not be continuing this tradition of the gold coins, but I have decided to continue the tradition of the diamonds. Each one of my girls will have a diamond from either myself or their grandmother. It brings a lot sentimental value to us. 

Fortunately, all of my siblings and I have been financially successful so nothing has every had to be sold (though I considered it during the high gold prices). My parents never bought any jewelry while in debt. I have some expensive pieces of jewelry and watches, again, all purchased in cash. Do think they are wise 'investments'? Nope, even though some have increased in price from when purchased. It does bring a tangible memories that I can literally pass on with stories to be told, which bring me and my family joy. 

For my engagement ring, I told my then boyfriend (now spouse) that I wanted a perfect 1 carat diamond (similar to the diamonds already in my family). I remember as my spouse and I were getting serious, we went ring shopping. I found the perfect diamond from Birks. The sales person wrote down the number on a card and slid it across the counter to my spouse. He looked at quote, and just said, I would like to think about it. As we left the shop, he told me the ring was more than an SUV >$30K (this was 20+ years ago). He told me if that's what I wanted, then he could get it but it would take him some more time to save up the amount. I told him lets talk about when he had that amount saved up as it was stupid to buy anything on credit. A while later, he asked if I want to look at the ring again, he had saved enough. At that I told him, he better not dare to spend that kind of money on a ring, I would rather replace my vehicle, and I just wanted make sure that he COULD buy the ring, not that he SHOULD buy the ring. Instead, he surprised me with a no perfect diamond ring for under $5k that I loved. We tell our kids the story that we could have gotten the expensive ring, but wanted a strong start. Also, we tell our kids that story because one child will get a perfect diamond, and the other will get a perfect story. Hopefully, both will get some wonderful memories and history. 

Not sure the point of my post, other than though others may think my jewelry (which don't show off) may be stupid, it doesn't really matter what other think. People should spend the money they have on items that bring them personal joy, assuming they can afford it. Sure, the money spent by my grandmother, parents, and my self on jewelry could have been invested and made a lot more. However, all of us had/have a pretty fulfilling lives already and are financially secure.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

There is a bit of a difference between buying precious metals which have a set price, though it can vary significantly, and a shiny rock worth 1/2 to 2/3 of what you initially paid for it as soon as you bought it (unless you can collect insurance). Of course a 4ct diamond is probably investment grade, chances are they still overpaid for it and it’ll take years to appreciate to back to your original purchase price. 

If you buy at birks, your “investment” is probably even worse. 

You could do just as well, if not better, throwing away half your money and investing the other half.

Diamonds are a manufactured commodity with poor resale value. Look at the OP’s reaction to the mear suggestion about buying a “used” diamond. Not many want them.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Most material items purchased are not investments. Most items are worth less used than new. If one can afford it, and it bring the buyer joy, who cares, and why the judgement. Most people in this forum probably do not fit the average person in Canada with debt. It may be a stupid decision, but if they can afford it, and they get enjoyment, then who cares. My ring hasn’t set me back at all, even if I had invested the money. 

No one is saying diamonds are a good montary investment. However, they do say a high quality diamond that is at least a carat in size will retain its value much better. So by that logic, a $25k diamond will retain its value better than a smaller $4k diamond. Kind of like the Ferrari doesn’t lose it’s valu, even though most cars do. Maybe that’s why people are buying these expensive diamonds because they are the better investment if you are just looking percentage lost or gained. 

Money is meant to be used on things that bring a person joy (I don’t just mean material items) mos of these items will not come back at a higher monetary value and that’s ok.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Nice story PA. It seems that there are not enough family traditions being followed these days. If everything we do has to be valued in economic terms, we have no hope for the future.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

The real issue of jewelry "giving one joy", is that it is the wrong mindset for people who are still trying to build their financial security. I am not saying many people don't have that mindset. I am just saying those people are thinking wrong if financial security is of any importance to them at all...and it should be.

I find people tend to either want to look like they are well off or they want to actually be well off. Now the first group would say they want both, but I am saying those two tend to work against each other, except for the ones with above average wealth. 

Now, with that said, is a ring, that has some tangible value a few years after purchase better then a big screen TV. Of course. But are either a good investment. Of course not. Jewelry is simply a symbol of what you think you should be...not necessarily what you really are.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Some people just don't seem to understand that 'value' often has nothing whatsoever to do with money. They also don't seem to understand that not everything someone spends their money on has to be justifiable, even if an item has no value in any other terms such as 'sentimental' value. Sometimes someone may spend money on something, 'just because they can' and no justification of any kind is needed beyond that.

I happen to like watches. I don't collect them, I use them. I've always enjoyed looking at a display of new watches and often been tempted enough to buy one even though I had no need for a new one at all. ie. my existing one still kept perfectly good time. I would struggle with trying to justify buying the new one and come up with all kinds of ridiculous justifications for myself. Nor am I talking about buying Timex watches. 

Some years ago (1986) I bought myself a Rolex Daytona while on a visit to Switzerland. A beautiful watch and near indestructible. For a watch lover like me, there was only one problem with that watch. Once you own one, there is no real way to justify ever buying another watch. It's not as if it is going to quit one day and you are going to just throw it out and buy a new one! That was back in the days when I hadn't yet discovered the freedom of understanding you can just buy something simply 'because you can'. My solution to my 'problem' was to give the watch away to one of my sons and that in my mind justified my then buying a new watch to replace it. 

The funny thing to me is my son still has that watch but is afraid to wear it as it's value today is considerably more than I paid for it. Sometimes something that increases in monetary value isn't always a good thing either. There's not much use owning some lovely jewellery or whatever if you are afraid to ever take them out of your safety deposit box. If that watch was slowly losing value or valueless today, he would be better off in a way as he could wear it and enjoy it if he liked the look of it. As it is, he 'values' it in monetary terms over any 'enjoyment value' he might get from wearing it. But when I tell him, look, it's just a watch and all it does it tell time. Wear it when you are painting your bedroom or doing an oil change on your car or whatever, that's what I did with it. It's for enjoying, not for hording. Nope, he can't do it. I don't think that is a good thing.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Some people just don't seem to understand that the value of sentiment does not buy your first home or send your first child to university, nearly as well as money.

I am not saying the people that buy jewelry are not valuing it. I am just questioning why.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

This thread should almost be merged with peterk's recently-started cost of wedding thread. Some of the same division of thought being represented.

Assuming one is in command of all of one's faculties, I would say one should do whatever the hell ones likes. If an expensive ring will bring joy and won't mean you cannot put food on the table, then do it. And do it even it done before one has built one's "financial security" as OEagle suggests one should. That concept, I find, is highly valued by most on the forum, but not by all. I know people who live on a shoestring and are happy with their lot. They have no ability to build financial security and they don't care. When I say "no ability", I mean by choice. They have the mental and physical horsepower to do well in the workforce, or in business, or in investing, yet they don't give a damn. They live for today and are content and they reckon tomorrow will take care of itself. They have been "retired" since high school. 

On the other hand, I know some who have applied themselves to the task of acquiring wealth and financial security and succeeded. JAG refers to a crowd that are barely one jump ahead of their creditors, with fancy houses, cars and "bling" (whatever that is). He also refers to those superior types who have the deepest of pockets, who eschew "useless bling" and apparently live in hovels, drive beaters and they don't give a damn. I am not sure I know anyone in either camp. Those that I see in the nice houses, etc. can afford them, so far as I am aware. I happen not to be privy to the personal finances of many folks. Their books are not open to me. There are some I have known for long years and about whom I have some insight into their situations. Of that group, what I have seen almost universally is that they live up to their incomes to a fair degree. They have nice homes in the "better" neighbourhoods, they do not drive junkers and I think some of their funds go to "bling". And really, why not? Does financial success and security mean one has pots of money, but lives like a pauper so their wealth escheats to the Crown (or goes to some n'er-do-well relative) at death? How prudent is that? If that is what makes one happy, sure.

As for the original topic of this thread, it think it clear beyond peradventure that the purchase of diamonds at retail is not exactly the road to financial security. I think that surprises no one here. But for those who derive pleasure from such purchases, why should anyone here try to tell them they are wrong? On this forum, it's almost unanimous that one of the highest and best uses one can make of one's money is to apply it to travel. Travel amounts to an "experience" money cannot buy. Nothing wrong with travel, but I know a few who refuse to spend on travel, saying the expensive vacation and the money it cost are gone in a few weeks, whereas a purchasing a fixed asset (perhaps even a bit of "bling") will bring longer term pleasure. Is one group demonstrably wrong and needs counselling to correct their thought patterns?

I happen to like a nice house, a nice car, some (but not endless) travel, good food and drink and a few other things (perhaps even a soupçon of "bling" thrown in). I could afford jewellery, but I really do not understand it. People wear it, but I am not sure why. Do they think it makes them look better? Maybe to some. I have never seen anyone with any jewellery and thought to myself, "oh, my, does _that_ ever make him or her look good. Actually, I suspect that a lot has to do with putting on a show of wealth. Look at me and what I can afford. But maybe not. As I say, I simply do not see the attraction. In fact, to me, a lot looks plain ugly. And now, guys are turning up everywhere with 2 earrings and more. Ditto for tattoos. Almost a must-have it seems, for men and women. I still think tattoos and piercings are low class and detract from beauty. I think Mother Nature (not sure some deity had much to do with it) made humans quite attractive in their unaltered state. I'll be so bold as to say that, to me, a woman's bathing suit, halter top, or whatever, that shows her navel is sexy. But when that navel is full of hardware, well....

I'll admit to having worn a ring once. Tried it. It was properly sized, but I was always aware of its presence. Felt unnatural. And it clattered across the steering wheel (back in the days of those hard plastic sort of ones) of my car. I soon tossed it. 

Some like Rolex watches. My problem is, that I am sufficiently unsophisticated that I cannot tell real from a good fake. So, if I see one, I usually reckon it might well be fake. Same if I am seen wearing one. Again, too, wearing a Rolex to me is making a statement "Look at me. I am a success. I have arrived." I have not heard it for awhile, but there was a guy who used to come on a radio ad for Monte Cristo (phonetic) jewellers in Vancouver, touting Rolex watches. Part of the pitch was how long it will last so it will actually save you money, not having to throw away any cheap watches. That might have been true once upon a time. But now, if one took the capital one would put into a Rolex and put it in an ordinary savings account, I'll wager that the interest earned would pay for a lifetime of replacements of battery-powered Timex (or similar) watches from London Drugs, Costco, etc. I have no doubt that in days of old, a Rolex watch was crafted by a skilled Swiss jeweller or some such and the mechanism was as durable and flawless as could be. Super accurate. Mechanical watches of days gone by were prone to gaining or losing time and other shortcomings. But today, a cheap battery powered watch is as accurate as any Rolex, I am sure. I have had a few over the years and never once had to reset the time on any of them. And my main reason for dumping them is the straps on a $60 watch do not endure as long as the watch and, rather than fuss around with a new strap, just get a new watch. Also, I know more people these days who no longer wear a watch. That, I suppose, is because we are all packing around so many "devices" that show time that a watch is redundant. But, again, if a $25,000 Rolex on your wrist makes you feel like a million, then go for it! Perhaps LTA can answer: Are Rolex watches still mechanical, or have they sold out and now they have to sell on the basis of having the finest battery drives money can buy? I would hope they are still made the old school way, even if an electric mechanism is more durable.

And maybe JAG can answer: Is a Rolex watch "bling"? Or is it too serious a watch to be bling? I am unsure of the boundaries of bling. Maybe cheap stuff does not pass muster, while very high end stuff has transcended the realm of bling and enjoys a more lofty status. An artist friend has in his library a monograph with the title _Kitsch: The World of Bad Taste_. Maybe I'll pose this vexing question to him. He's probably _au courant_ in these finely nuanced matters.

Maybe I am writing some of this out of envy, recognizing that, deep down, I am shallow. I am a philistine. Awhile ago I saw an ad in a magazine. It showed a man wearing a gold chain bracelet. On that bracelet was a small gold rectangle. Set into that, in perhaps in 5 rows, were diamonds, about 8 or so to the row. So, what it was was a simple gold rectangle with a bunch of diamonds set into it. When worn, the diamonds would face into the wrist, but the slack in the chain would allow them to be seen in whole or in part at various angles and dependent on the activity of the wearer. The caption read "He knows how to wear his diamonds." I have never owned any diamonds, so I do not know how to wear them. Now, thanks to an advertisement, I have learned that the correct way is simply _en masse _ on one's wrist. But I do not think I'll go get a bracelet like that. I do not qualify. The cognoscenti would not have to be told how to wear their diamonds. They are probably born knowing. I would be a pretender. Not born to the purple. One should know one's place. Those of us of the sweeper caste should not be putting on airs.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Mukhang pera said:


> This thread should almost be merged with peterk's recently-started cost of wedding thread. Some of the same division of thought being represented.
> 
> Assuming one is in command of all of one's faculties, I would say one should do whatever the hell ones likes. If an expensive ring will bring joy and won't mean you cannot put food on the table, then do it. And do it even it done before one has built one's "financial security" .


This is the winning statement for pretty much all discretionary spending. Whether it's a ring, a wedding, watch, a vehicle, travel, TV, kids education or whatever it is.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Muk, you prove yet again you never actually read what people write, just use your own assumptions as to what they say.

If you'd actually have read what I wrote, you would have seen I never said rich people buy beaters, etc. I actually said they buy QUALITY and don't usually waste money to try and compensate for their insecurities. I also said many people try to pretend to be successful by buying useless "signs" of prosperity when they often can't really afford it.

If you have the money, do whatever you like. If you don't, you're likely feeding your insecurities and making your life worse in the long run.

Personally, I don't wear a watch, my time isn't dictated by anything other than my whims.

I also find it sad when people buy into marketing...Diamonds being a great example, since they are known to be overpriced at the time of purchase, worse than cars which at least serve a purpose, as a sign of "love" thanks to the marketing department of deBeers. Before they became a symbol of love, they were much more reasonably priced...less than 100 years ago. Why not give her a chia pet, it's at least grows and it's kind of a rock. Of course many people also purchase those, just pay a lot less and throw them out.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Muk, you prove yet again you never actually read what people write, just use your own assumptions as to what they say.
> 
> If you'd actually have read what I wrote, you would have seen I never said rich people buy beaters, etc. I actually said they buy QUALITY and don't usually waste money to try and compensate for their insecurities. I also said many people try to pretend to be successful by buying *useless "signs" of prosperity *when they often can't really afford it.
> 
> ...


Braggadocio "signs of prosperity" come in so many different forms, don't they?

Or would you prefer to regale us with another tale of when you bought your dozens of houses for 50% off retail, and end by offering no actionable advice to us rock-buying masses?


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I have no doubt people will inevitably do whatever it is they want. That issue certainly does not need a 12 page thread to resolve. I just don't agree that "because I want to" automatically makes it a good investment. 

Anyway, I don't think anyone is arguing that if pure logic is used, jewelry is a complete waste of money, but if other more intangible reasons are used, it may very well be money well spent. So I will leave it there.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

peterk said:


> Braggadocio "signs of prosperity" come in so many different forms, don't they?
> 
> Or would you prefer to regale us with another tale of when you bought your dozens of houses for 50% off retail, and end by offering no actionable advice to us rock-buying masses?


One puts money in your pocket, one throws it away...one adds to prosperity, one doesn't. If you can't tell a difference, I know where you'll wind up. I also know who'll be paying for you.

You also seem to have ignored me saying things like buy a "used" diamond for a lot less money.

As the T-shirt says, you can't fix stupid, not even with duct tape.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Just a Guy said:


> Muk, you prove yet again you never actually read what people write, just use your own assumptions as to what they say.
> 
> If you'd actually have read what I wrote, you would have seen I never said rich people buy beaters, etc. I actually said they buy QUALITY and don't usually waste money to try and compensate for their insecurities. I also said many people try to pretend to be successful by buying useless "signs" of prosperity when they often can't really afford it.


JAG, what you "actually said" came out a bit different this time. Your post to which I made reference spoke thus:




Just a Guy said:


> Know lots of people who feel compelled to show off their success. Fancy cars, big house, shiny rocks on fingers, big weddings...only problem is they work like a dog to try and keep up appearances...anything goes wrong and they are in trouble. There’s a reason the average Canadian can’t withstand an unexpected $2000 expense.
> 
> terms, doing what they want, not caring about what others think...they tend to have a lot of quality in their lives, but not a lot of useless bling. Maybe that’s why they are successful, but what would I know.


There is a prodigious difference between never actually reading and making assumptions (of which you find me guilty), on the one hand, and reading quite closely and drawing reasonable inferences, on the other. You said you know "lots of people who feel compelled to show off their success. Fancy cars, big house, shiny rocks on fingers, big weddings". A clear implication of that language is that those who buy "fancy cars, big house, shiny rocks on fingers, big weddings" are indulging in "useless bling", whereas those who have really made it have a "lot of quality in their lives" which, given the import of your words, embraces something other than "fancy cars, big house, shiny rocks on fingers, big weddings". Otherwise, why did you not simply say that the well-heeled also buy those things, not to show off their success, but simply to enjoy the fruits of their success? But you made is sound as though the well-heeled would not partake of those trappings of success. So, if they avoid fancy cars and big houses, they must, by necessary implication, make purchases at a lower level, don't you think? At least I see that as one reasonable interpretation of what you said. Not an "assumption" at all. My reference to living in hovels and driving beaters was a bit of hyperbole. I mistakenly saw you as sufficiently sophisticated to realize that. 

Your words would also lend themselves to the interpretation that "fancy cars, big house, shiny rocks on fingers, big weddings" purchased by those barely able to afford them are purchases made by those people "who feel compelled to show off their success" (or maybe you meant _apparent_ success). On the other hand, such purchases made by the truly successful are entitled to be seen in a more benign and deferential light. Those folks are not showing off. In their hands, a "fancy car" is a wise choice of motor vehicle. A “big house” is a dignified residence. A “shiny rock” is a splendid item of personal adornment. A “big wedding” is the gracious hosting of a memorable event for family and friends.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Selective editing...read the thread as a whole, pretend it’s one of your endless diatribes. I’m sure one could cut out a good 20 chapters of your post and change the meaning to suit. 

Again, I assume you’re just trying to suck me into another of your trolling sessions. Either that, or you’re incapable of seeing beyond general statements. Sorry, I’m not going to single out every individual who doesn’t comply with a general statement that encompasses a lot of people. I don’t assume “everyone” falls into these statements, I don’t understand how you can’t figure out the same thing.

You can try to educate some people, but you obviously can’t make them think.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

It appears to me that the only person here who is having a real problem understanding that 'value' is not simply a monetary term is Just a Guy. I think we should just agree to let him live in his own little world if it makes him happy. I would just suggest that any female readers, make note and resolve not to marry him any time soon unless of course they are a confirmed gold digger just out to get his money, in which case he would be considered 'fair game'.

I can provide some simple comments on Rolex watches as per the request of Mukhang pera, for anyone with a minor interest in reading a little about it. First, yes they are still mechanical Mukhang pera. As for telling real from a fake, that is indeed a common problem as there are fakes sold to unsuspecting buyers all the time. The first and most telling clue is the action of the second hand. A digital (battery) watch has a second hand that moves in graduations of 1 second per move. In other words, if you watch the second hand on your watch (and it is battery operated), it will go, 'click, click, click' moving one second at a time. 

A mechanical watch such as a Rolex on the other hand does not do that. It moves continuously in a very smooth manner. If someone is a bit mechanically minded, they will be able to understand that when you rely on a cog wheel to control movement of the second hand, the more cogs on the wheel the smoother the movement will be. A digital watch has no 'movement', it just has an 'on-off' means of moving the second hand. That's about as simply as I can explain it anyway.

This one factor alone will allow anyone looking at a supposed Rolex (or any mechanical watch) to know if it is a fake or not, 99% of the time. Most fake Rolex watches are in fact digital with only the outside made to look like a Rolex. There are very few fake Rolex watches that go to the extent of actually using a mechanical watch movement as part of the faking process.

Regarding monetary value. When I bought my Daytona back in 86, I paid less than $5k for it if my memory serves me correctly. I don't recall it as a 'break the bank' purchase for me by any means. If you wanted to buy a new Rolex today, you could still buy one *from* $5k for a new one and a new Daytona from around $12-13k. It all depends on the model, not all Rolex watches cost $20-25k+. If you click on any of the models listed on the following link, you will find some models available used from $1500. You can also find used ones for $100k. The point is, they all lose value just like a car does initially. The difference is that while only some cars go on to become 'classics' and rise in value, it seem that all Rolex watches then go on to rise in value over time as they become a 'vintage' Rolex. I don't know why that is, it just is. So in terms of putting the money in the bank and collecting interest might pay for a lifetime of Timex watches and batteries, it would in fact probably not add up to the equal of the value of the Rolex 30-40 years later. In that sense, a Rolex really could be considered a monetary investment. https://www.bobswatches.com/used-rolex-prices

But also just like any kind of 'collectible', not all are equal. For example, a little known fact is that if a Rolex is cleaned/serviced by an authorized Rolex service centre, there is a very good chance that the hands will be changed as part of the service because they have lost their 'luminosity'. That change means the watch is no longer 'original' and it loses value as a collectible. Again, like classic cars, countless small details are involved in what makes one more collectible than another and therefore commands a higher price tag. I found a good explanation here: http://rolexpassionreport.com/19860/learn-the-value-of-your-vintage-rolex/

Next, they are 'self-winding' and that is where the name 'Rolex Oyster Perpetual' comes from. Younger people will probably have no idea what 'self-winding' means. It means that the normal movement of your hands and wrists as you go about your day to day business is used to 'wind' the watch spring and keep it running without you having to actually 'wind it up' every day or so. As for accuracy, yes the will gain/lose time as all mechanical watches do. Rolex watches just gain/lose less than the average mechanical watch does. That is why they are certified as 'Superlative Chronometers'. https://www.rolex.com/about-rolex-watches/movements.html You are absolutely correct though in thinking that a relatively cheap digital watch today will in fact be 'as accurate' and in fact you are also wrong in that the digital watch will be more accurate since it cannot by design, gain/lose time at all. But having to correct a Rolex watch say once a year is not really much to worry about.

As for who buys a Rolex and why, well obviously there are many answers to that question. Some no doubt do buy one to 'show off'. Some may buy one because they are a collector. Some may buy one because they just appreciate the quality and craftsmanship that goes into making one. What's wrong with just wanting to have the 'best' available? As for my own reasons for having bought one, it was partly the latter and also partly to do with my lifestyle, meaning my interests in outdoor activities. As an avid outdoor person who hiked, backpacked, skied, snowshoed, sailed, climbed, bicycled, etc. I wanted a watch that was reliable and near indestructible and a Rolex is just that. 

My choice of a Daytona model was due to the influence of Paul Newman. It was designed specifically to time car racing which I did not do but I just figured if it was good enough for Paul Newman to use for that, it was good enough for me to tell time with. His recently sold for $17.8 million and I have to admit getting a bit of a kick out of it when I heard about that. I don't expect mine (now my son's) will ever reach that level though. It's now worth maybe $30-40K. https://sharpmagazine.com/2018/01/0...x-daytona-the-most-expensive-watch-ever-sold/

So all I know is I bought a watch to use to tell time and wanted one that was considered to be as good as it gets at doing that and at the same time nearly indestructible when doing the kind of activities that I did at the time. If I still had it, I would still wear it every day and not to 'show off', but to use for that same purpose, telling time. 

I would like to add one further comment re jewellery. I have bought my wife jewellery throughout our marriage. Some items more expensive than others but each equally 'valuable' to her. Perhaps even using the word 'value' is misleading. Each piece commemerates something or somewhere. So in fact, they are 'memories' rather than values. She often makes a bit of a game when we go out of listing them. She will point to each item and name where or when I gave it to her. She doesn't place more emphasis on what it 'cost'. So she points and it may go, 'Rhodes, Edinburgh, Toronto, Sedona, La Jolla, Xmas 06, Davos, Anniversary 09, etc. Each time she does it, the list varies depending on what she has chosen to wear that day. Each time, the enjoyment is in the memories, not the cost.

So JAG may have his definition of 'bling' whatever that definition may be but my wife is not wearing 'bling' she is wearing memories of our life together. I like that.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

So JAG, I would ask that you point me in the direction of one of my "endless diatribes". In general terms, a diatribe can fairly be described as "a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something". Please provide a link to just one, or post it here, to remind us all what I negative influence I am on cmf. I was heretofore unaware of posting "endless diatribes". Perhaps I need a short, sharp, jerk to bring me to heel.

Other than being able to cull from your last post that you believe (or pretend to believe) that I am a troll and a nuisance poster, I am able to ascribe little meaning to the balance of your post. In no meaningful way do you address my comments about your post. You simply respond with bluff and bluster, ducking the merits of what I said.

As something of an aside, I cannot help but observe that you keep some rather odd company. You claim to know "lots of people" who show off wealth they don't have and are one step from insolvency. I don't know anyone like that. Now, there might be some out there that treat themselves to owning a nice house, car, etc. and who have to work hard to pay for it, but is that really so bad? As quoted by PA, above, I made the point early in this thread that people should do that the hell they like with their money. That goes for the house and car that are financed. So what? Let those folks govern their own lives without you looking down miles of nose calling them fools I (yeah, I know, the word "fool" is absent from your post, so I am at it again, reading in what is not there, troll that I am). It could be that those you appear to describe in condescending terms are really quite happy with their lot. You say they "work like dogs" (verily, your own words this time). What evidence have you of that? They work. Okay. They might even like their work, even if you find that notion unpalatable. Working to pay for what they are enjoying now may not be anathema to them, even though you think it should. They are not here on cmf, showing off their unbridled braggadocio. (Ed. note: Peterk came up with a most apt descriptor that time). In fact, Peterk's post is such a storehouse of merit that it would be a disservice other than to quote it in its entirety:



peterk said:


> Braggadocio "signs of prosperity" come in so many different forms, don't they?
> 
> Or would you prefer to regale us with another tale of when you bought your dozens of houses for 50% off retail, and end by offering no actionable advice to us rock-buying masses?


LTA also made a couple of apt comments to you JAG, upthread, viz,:



Longtimeago said:


> Well while I can agree that people who fit your descriptions do exist, I don't think there is much point in such generalizations other than for someone who does not buy 'shiny rocks' etc. to justify their own actions.


More to the point he said:



Longtimeago said:


> Well you got one thing right, what would you know.
> 
> I don't know why some people seem to want to try and insist everyone who does one thing they don't like/approve of/whatever, must fit into a little box they can describe.
> 
> Not everyone who is successful and can afford to spend money on something you want to denigrate by using adjectives like 'fancy, big, shiny' etc. work like dogs to keep up appearances. Nor are they all average Canadians who can't withstand an unexpected $2k expense. Yet you write as if that is a known fact. You're WRONG.


So JAG, just who is it here who is guilty of dashing off diatribes? Huh". Are you a man or a mouse? C'mon, squeak up.

Here's another gem from you (post #80, upthread):



Just a Guy said:


> They are there to boost egos.
> 
> The fools go about flashing their “25k” rings...living in expensive neighbourhoods, mortgaged to the hilt (and about to experience a major correction), driving heavily financed cars (which lose massive amounts of value once driven off the lots)...eat in fancy restaurants paid on credit cards...then they wind up declaring bankruptcy and complaining about how unfair the world is...
> 
> ...


Can you back up your point in the first sentence about those who "wind up declaring bankruptcy and complaining about how unfair the world is"? I cannot even think of a single example like that that I have encountered, and I am more familiar than most with bankruptcy law and practice in BC and I have seen a lot of bankruptcy cases. Please provide some support for that bald statement. 

In the last sentence quoted you are back to the motif that the pretenders live an ostentatious lifestyle while the real wealth crowd buy "modest" items (but not beaters, as you have admonished). Those types invest in "real things" that "make them money". What the hell for, pray tell? If they are content to live modestly, why the pursuit of wealth? No doubt there are some with pots of dough who live like hobos, but I do not accept that such is the norm. 

A spent a few years working for a downtown Vancouver law firm. Sort of a "boutique" corporate and commercial firm that catered not to large corporations or governments, but well-to-do families, that had significant real estate holdings, or businesses, often both, some passed down for a few generations. Those people had money. I saw how they lived. They owned houses in Shaughnessy. They had chauffeur-driven Rolls and Bentleys. They owned yachts, some with a crew always at the ready. They owned aircraft or they regularly chartered aircraft. They belonged to the Arbutus Club, the Vancouver Lawn & Tennis club, Royal Vancouver Yacht Club, etc. Some held memberships in such organizations in other cities as well, such as the Granite Club in TO. Very little modesty among them. I would not have expected much modesty. They had money and they enjoyed what it could buy. Like them, I am crazy enough to believe that money should be spent and enjoyed.

JAG, this whole thread is larded with your negative comments to the OP and others. You have challenged them and sought to show your superiority. I asked you to refer us all to even one of my "diatribes" - examples of where I have mounted "a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something". You, on the other hand, have done so in this thread. There are many other threads where you have taken on members with even greater venom. Shall I post some reminders here? I have them to hand.

Looking back at this post, it just might fall within the definition of diatribe. It's not written with rancour or bitterness, but intended to be somewhat forceful. I have been the recipient of a few pms here, cautioning against being drawn out by you and just to ignore your nonsense. I regret that my personality does not readily allow me to be a target of the crap you throw out, thence to meekly withdraw. That would be a course of prudence and I greatly admire those restrained types hereabouts, who, with commendable self-control, simply ignore your personal attacks. I must strive to emulate them and to ignore it when I encounter, in the words of Shakespeare, a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury signifying nothing.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

LTA, thank you for your post sharing your Rolex knowledge. Quite enlightening, really. It explains too, why you have purchased a Rolex and have taken an interest. I would not have the temerity to characterize it as "bling". You were able to afford your purchase, you enjoy it and why not? I have made purchases and own chattels (and even an odd piece of real estate) that I am sure one could look at and think I could have made better use of my money. But that's the point, it's _my_ money and I am not asking anyone else to foot the bill.

What you said below rings as true as gun barrel steel:



Longtimeago said:


> I
> So JAG may have his definition of 'bling' whatever that definition may be but my wife is not wearing 'bling' she is wearing memories of our life together. I like that.


I can appreciate that even though I have no interest in jewellery and my wife is the same. For those who wear and enjoy it, and for whom it marks memories, then that's how it should be. Again, my wife and I enjoy some things and spend money on those things that might have others wondering. We don't care. We do as we like, not hurting anyone else.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Muk, I think you just proved my point. 

My eyes glazed over about a 10th of the way through, but I’m sure it’ll help those suffering from insomnia. 

I too have received a number of pms telling me not to get sucked into your trolling and to just ignore you. So I suppose we’re equal in that area. I’ve chosen not to get sucked back into your trolling, so I’m not going to bother trying to read through your fantasy novels and correct all your mistakes. They have editors you can pay for that if you want, you’re not worth the effort in my opinion.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

JAG, you have just demonstrated how childish you are. When you see it is plain you are losing an argument, you give up the argument but, rather than being mature and concede, you take the position that "I am right, you are wrong and I cannot be bothered to argue with you."

BTW, why don't we go public with pms, and see who has what. You are the only person on this board who has ever called me a troll. Now you....

Maybe even better. We put it to a "town hall" vote. You say you have a collection of pms calling me a troll. I have but a handful hurling that calumny at you. Sounds like you might already have broad-based support here, which I lack. Should be a slam dunk for ya'. Either way, we are, apparently, both seen by other members as deplorables on cmf. I would be content with the results of a cmf poll. He who gets the most votes, leaves permanently. I may have suggested this before. Perhaps the time has come. All forums benefit from a bit of housecleaning now and again. How say you?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Well, since the thread has long derailed from the original ring question to whatever it is now... I will continue with the derailing because at least there has been some useful information posted.

LTA Thanks for the very informative posts about Rolexes. At the risk of having condescending comments, I am in the process of getting our Rolexes serviced. I don't follow the every 5-8 years, I tend to extend mine out as long as I can. I received mine as a gift years ago, and had to service it about 10 years ago when my watch took a line drive by a baseball. It was due for servicing anyways, I did have to get a repair done too, so it cost back then about $800 for servicing. Now, my watch needs service again. As you stated all Rolexes get serviced via being sent out. They are now quoting a start of $1000 for servicing. I checked the US where my gifter gets his done, and it was even more money. We both live in more expensive City. Curious to see if you know how much servicing costs in your city? I ask because theoretically if they get sent out to the same place, then it should be the same amount. 

Also, my father has a vintage Rolex (almost 50 years old) and one that is less old, both need servicing. They can't even give us a quote yet because one of them is so old. They told me most likely more than $1000. The challenge here is determining if it's worth it. How does one put a value to a vintage? My dad likes his watch, but doesn't want to pay for the repair, we are debating just paying for it for him, and then debate it might be better to even buy a new one. 

Side note: I do agree about the jewelry and memories. I can certain jewelry that I got at key moments in life, and when I wear it, it reminds me of those times or stories, like when I where my mother's diamonds, or grandmothers pearls, I am reminded about the hardship they went through.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

There you go again muk, someone doesn’t agree with you drive them away. Talk about childish. You and humble, right up there with the Royal Mail. 

I don’t care if you stick around, though you said you were leaving just a few weeks ago, more fantasy publishing I guess. 

I just can’t be bothered to read 40 page postings that are filled with all sorts of interpretations of yours. If you want a debate, keep it on focus. I was talking about diamonds, suddenly I’m supposed to be talking about rolex watches...which was never involved in any of my postings. 

I’m sorry your postings are so long, you can’t seem to be concise on anything and I’m not getting sucked in. I can’t see why you won’t just let this drop like I’m trying to do for the benefit of the board. 

We don’t get along, I can accept that and move on, so maybe try it yourself. It’s time to grow up and move on instead of trying to drag me back in.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> Well, since the thread has long derailed from the original ring question to whatever it is now... I will continue with the derailing because at least there has been some useful information posted.
> 
> LTA Thanks for the very informative posts about Rolexes. At the risk of having condescending comments, I am in the process of getting our Rolexes serviced. I don't follow the every 5-8 years, I tend to extend mine out as long as I can. I received mine as a gift years ago, and had to service it about 10 years ago when my watch took a line drive by a baseball. It was due for servicing anyways, I did have to get a repair done too, so it cost back then about $800 for servicing. Now, my watch needs service again. As you stated all Rolexes get serviced via being sent out. They are now quoting a start of $1000 for servicing. I checked the US where my gifter gets his done, and it was even more money. We both live in more expensive City. Curious to see if you know how much servicing costs in your city? I ask because theoretically if they get sent out to the same place, then it should be the same amount.
> 
> ...


Oh boy, time to be very careful Plugging Along. As I wrote here, servicing can reduce the value of a Rolex. The article I linked on valuing your Rolex is a good starting point for understanding how and why. Even just having the watch polished can affect its value. I am by no means a Rolex expert, I have simply spent a little time learning about the subject due to my interest as a past owner of one. Now it is my son's problem.

A few things I would say to you. If you do not want to risk adversely affecting the monetary value of your Rolex watches, you need to follow the advice of collectors, not users. They are not one and the same necessarily. I think there are probably lots of owners of Rolex watches who have very little real knowledge (or any desire to have any) of what makes a 'vintage' Rolex valuable. There are forums specifically for Rolex collectors on line who can answer your questions and help you decide how to proceed both with your own and your Father's Rolex, including who to go to for a realistic valuation. Try here: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vin...f207593/?sid=b009ee73a50122832643123194563346

Regarding service costs, I don't think the numbers you are talking about are out of line these days but again, I would consult collectors first for advice. A quick look got me this in a forum where it seems the qualify of the service was being questioned as well, although it is an older post (2011). 
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=168433

Looking at that thread though it seems clear to me that some of those responding on the thread probably have very little actual knowledge of the subject. They just happen to own a Rolex. That's why I say find collectors, not users.

It MAY be that any one of them could be sold for enough to pay for servicing yours and those of your Father and still put a profit in the pocket after buying a new one, who knows. In fact, you've given me an idea. I'm going to suggest to my son who doesn't wear his (ex-mine) Rolex simply because it is worth too much, that he should consider selling it (it has no real sentimental value to him), buy a brand new one and pocket the difference.

As I understand it, values often go something like this. $10k new worth $5k used on day two through say year 10-20 maybe. Then at some point the used value as a 'vintage' Rolex MAY begin to rise OR may not really rise at all. So 30=40 years out, the $10k new ends up worth $5k to $150k used. But if one is worth say $30k used, you can sell and buy a new one for $10k and pocket $20k profit. Almost like a lottery ticket isn't it.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

^ LTA Thanks for the input. The person who gave me my first Rolex is a collector and a user, so a knowledgeable user or both? He did say that the watch was vintage, and brought it in for appraisal years ago as a favor for my dad. It's not a million dollar Rolex, but there is value. 

My collector friend knows a lot, but money is no object for him, hence he is always just get it done, it doesn't matter how much it costs. I remember visit I on the other hand, am one of those lowly people that have to think about my dollars and still try to get the best value. You seemed to know more about Rolexes than many, so I thought I would ask you about price. I will check out the threads above, and do some more research. My dad is an user and gets enjoyment for wearing his watch. So part of me says who cares as long he enjoys, get it fixed. 

Interesting suggestion with your son. For me, I would never consider selling it if my dad gave it to me because it is a memory of my dad. That's like the jewelry I have from my mother. It's so much easier making decisions based on the numbers but these sentimental, intangible things are hard to classify. 

Thanks again for the links and thoughts. If I ever make decision, I will post.


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