# The official Dragon's Den thread



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

*The official Dragons' Den thread*

I am sure some of the fine folks of CMF enjoy the show - did anyone catch last night's episode? That guy selling that water to cure everything was hilarious, esp the way everyone reacted to him. LOL! Some of these people are obviously joking.

I loved the update with Kevin O selling those gloves on the shopping channel. He's all about making money, no doubt about that, and seems quite happy when involved in such things. Go figure. 

Discuss.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> I am sure some of the fine folks of CMF enjoy the show - did anyone catch last night's episode? That guy selling that water to cure everything was hilarious, esp the way everyone reacted to him. LOL! Some of these people are obviously joking.
> 
> I loved the update with Kevin O selling those gloves on the shopping channel. He's all about making money, no doubt about that, and seems quite happy when involved in such things. Go figure.
> 
> Discuss.


I love the show. But I don't watch it much these days what with this being summer and all. That episode you watched last night sounds like a rerun. It may not even be from the last season.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

You're right! Here's that pitch...

http://www.cbc.ca/dragonsden/pitches/himac-research.html


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

KO is one of the more renowned snake oil salesmen. But he is entertaining.

I like the Shark Tank where they take on other sharks.


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

My favorite part is seeing the valuations from company owners and how they differ from what the dragons are willing to offer.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

kcowan said:


> KO is one of the more renowned snake oil salesmen. But he is entertaining.
> 
> I like the Shark Tank where they take on other sharks.


I'm glad I'm not the only one. I'll say one thing for KO though. He isn't afraid to try anything. If you are pitching for capital for a snake oil company, KO is sure to sample your products and make up his mind (on the product). It bugs me no end that KO parlays his media persona into successfully selling some rather middling funds. 

It's a shame that Dragon's Den often descends into the 'KO and Friends' show. I, for one, would like to see more time given to Brett. Apparently, he asks sharp business questions which are typically edited out. Of course, this is TV we are talking about, so we can't expect too much.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Interesting discussion!

Yeah Brett isn't really an alpha male like KO. Even Mr. Boston Pizza seems to be the man of few words. He is usually out of deals.

And yes, Shark Tank is pretty good too. Seems to be a little more serious than DD.

What always disappoints me are the people who really put on great, personable presentations for ideas that might go somewhere but all the dragons turn them down. But I guess that's why I'm not up there with those 5 lol.

Did anyone see this pitch? What was your opinion of it?

http://www.cbc.ca/dragonsden/pitches/trader-2.html


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> Interesting discussion!
> 
> Yeah Brett isn't really an alpha male like KO. Even Mr. Boston Pizza seems to be the man of few words. He is usually out of deals.
> 
> ...


Thankfully I have no opinion on it.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Did anyone see it last night? Brett signed up for some kind of a deodorant spray thing for a 5% royalty on sales. Seems a bit fishy though. After kicking out that snake oil guy from before I thought they were surprisingly tolerant of this pitch.

http://www.cbc.ca/dragonsden/pitches/dr-mist.html


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## Viflux (May 2, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> Did anyone see it last night? Brett signed up for some kind of a deodorant spray thing for a 5% royalty on sales. Seems a bit fishy though. After kicking out that snake oil guy from before I thought they were surprisingly tolerant of this pitch.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/dragonsden/pitches/dr-mist.html


I think the deal was contingent upon evidence of the stated revenue/sales. It may seem like snake-oil, but if it's bringing in the kind of money the claimed, it could be worth investing in.

It was a really strange pitch though...especially the interaction of the daughter.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

This pitch aired last night. Did anyone see it? 

http://www.cbc.ca/dragonsden/pitches/keep-canada-slim.html


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> This pitch aired last night. Did anyone see it?


Yea, it had no hope.
Such products and strategies are dime a dozen.
However, I feel the dragons were too harsh on him.
He was not a charismatic presenter, granted, but he would have been the same if he did have a great product.
Maybe some of this is playing to the media/audience, too, but they were just brutal to him.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Gotta love those off the wall pitches.

Yeah I think the Dragons know they are celebrities and are providing entertainment. Kevin O dismissed somebody rather quickly yesterday saying something like "I'm out, bad idea, shame on you" all in the same breathe. Pretty funny. Even on the Lang and O'Leary exchange his comments can be pretty extreme, but definitely always entertaining. Last night he even said he would sue Arlene haha.

Someone speculated he may simply be an actor playing a part created by CBC. Not sure how true that is.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I have started to dislike Kevin's over-the-top persona on the L&O'LE. I don't know if he's trying to create a Donald Trump persona (his 'brand'), but he often says things that don't sound sincere just to shock Amanda/the audience. It might make good TV for occasional viewers, but it gets old if you watch him make outrageous/unintelligent comments nightly.


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## stardancer (Apr 26, 2009)

andrewf said:


> I have started to dislike Kevin's over-the-top persona on the L&O'LE. I don't know if he's trying to create a Donald Trump persona (his 'brand'), but he often says things that don't sound sincere just to shock Amanda/the audience. It might make good TV for occasional viewers, but it gets old if you watch him make outrageous/unintelligent comments nightly.


So have I. Last week when he was gone, I really enjoyed the guests in his place. I find that they gave personal opinions, but they also tried to back them up. Kevin seems to just shout out his opinions and gives no research or rationale to support them. It's getting old.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Did anyone catch the Den last night? I was surprised that the guy with the deck privacy screens ended up without a deal as it seemed like he was about to get some offers very close to the end. Here's the pitch I mean.

http://www.cbc.ca/dragonsden/pitches/privacy-wrap.html


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

Do you recall the numbers? Revenue numbers etc?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

He had about $20K in sales over the past year. Not huge but I think all this product needed was the right business savvy behind it.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I sort of remember that one. 

New season starts Sept 22!!


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

Asking $70k for 30% values the company @ $233,333 which means he was asking over 10 times sales. Did Kevin start screaming about valuation?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I think Kevin and Robert were both unable to grasp the valuation. I still thought they should have made a counter offer though, at least ONE of them. It seemed that when those two folded, everyone followed suit, but when they were interested, everyone was interested.

Good to know about the new season! I am looking forward to that. Will also watch for Shark Tank.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> ....Will also watch for Shark Tank.


As I understand it, Shark Tank was not renewed. They have one unviewed episode though.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Aw man. And I was just getting used to that one. Too bad.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Season 5 is upon us and is on tonight - don't miss it!

http://www.cbc.ca/dragonsden/s5.html


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

I watched an episode the other day where Jim (Boston Pizza) bought into the Waffle cart concept @ a valuation of 2 times sales! Great deal for both parties. With Jim's experience with franchises, the waffle company will probably do very well.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

FrugalTrader said:


> I watched an episode the other day where Jim (Boston Pizza) bought into the Waffle cart concept @ a valuation of 2 times sales! Great deal for both parties. With Jim's experience with franchises, the waffle company will probably do very well.



That was a good episode.

National Post did an article on the "Damn Heels" segment.

http://www.nationalpost.com/todays-paper/carpet+leads+gold+Damn+Heels/3583386/story.html


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Seriously you guys have no idea what a great idea "Damn Heels" is. 

I'll never forget the time I wore a nice pair of new open toed pumps to do a market survey for a building with an owner... I ended up with 2 inch blisters along both sides of both my feet. 

The ladies will get this one too... after I came home, I swore never to wear the damn shoes again. I put them in my closet (Could you throw out a brand new pair of shoes?) Later on in the year or even in a few years, I'll be going through my closet and WOW here's a pretty new pair of shoes... Why don't I wear these? HA HA 

And you thought your wife bought all those shoes because she just liked them? I have like 30 pairs of shoes in my closet, there are about 4 that I can actually wear in real life. The rest I can't bear to throw out because they are brand spanking new.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

So, what did everyone think? 

I thought it was very entertaining. It was funny to watch Kevin try and negotiate with those teambuy people but in the end Jim got the deal for 35%. The cookie lady was excellent, loved her presentation and wit. The tub couple...ugh, everyone told them it was a bad idea and to stop. They didn't want to listen to that advice and still feel it's a good idea. The bump and die game was very well presented, but the dragons felt it was a bad idea. The wheelchair idea I thought was excellent, very well presented, but the dragons disagreed with the valuation. Not sure, I think they made a mistake turning that one down. The presenters reacted gracefully and kept their smile all the same. I don't think we've heard the last of them.

For the record, I don't always agree with the reactions of the dragons, but hey it's their money right?

Comments, discussion?


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## stardancer (Apr 26, 2009)

It's too bad about the wheelchair guys; I really liked them. But, the rules say you must get all that you ask for and no one was willing to put up a million.

I bet something will go down behind the scenes though; I thought all the dragons were very interested.

Sometimes the pitchers who get nothing get a lot from other sources. The exposure itself is priceless.


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm on the same boat, I liked the wheel chair guys, their product and their story, but at the end of the day, valuation is based on earnings and/or IP, and they had neither.

I liked the teambuy.ca guys as well but I don't recall what they said what their net earnings were. I think I heard numbers like $400k sales for last year? Jim paid $150k for 35%.


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## Kidbrosweets (Sep 3, 2010)

FrugalTrader said:


> I'm on the same boat, I liked the wheel chair guys, their product and their story, but at the end of the day, valuation is based on earnings and/or IP, and they had neither.
> 
> I liked the teambuy.ca guys as well but I don't recall what they said what their net earnings were. I think I heard numbers like $400k sales for last year? Jim paid $150k for 35%.


- they netted 10% 40k.

- I liked the wheelchair idea, i expect there is probably some wheeling and dealing behind the scenes on that one. 

- didn't really buy into the cookie lady, 5 bucks for a cookie?? but i guess the numbers were impressive.

-that bathroom toy, i felt bad for them since there was no way to convince them it was a bad idea. They will dig themselves into a huge hole.


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## Mockingbird (Apr 29, 2009)

FrugalTrader said:


> I watched an episode the other day where Jim (Boston Pizza) bought into the Waffle cart concept @ a valuation of 2 times sales! Great deal for both parties. With Jim's experience with franchises, the waffle company will probably do very well.


I've tried their waffle while back. Pretty tasty, but I thought $3.50 per half waffle was tad pricey.



FrugalTrader said:


> I liked the teambuy.ca guys as well but I don't recall what they said what their net earnings were. I think I heard numbers like $400k sales for last year? Jim paid $150k for 35%.


Few similar companies already exist here in Vancouver. So there will be a stiff competition here.
Here's an excerpt from Vancouver Sun (June 4, 2010) - write up on "Grooster", a new group-buying startup company.
_By the time of their launch, Vancouver consumers already had a choice of services, including WagJag (Thursday offering $30 worth of buying power at Jolly's India Bistro in Kitsilano for only $15), StealtheDeal.com($15 of movie rentals for $4 at North Vancouver's Odyssey Video) and Groupon.

StealtheDeal.comis a Canadian company, launched last October, expanding across the country with Montreal added last week.

Other companies following Groupon's lead include TeamBuy (available in Toronto but not yet in Vancouver), WebPiggy (available for Toronto buyers with Vancouver promised soon), Group Swoop (for San Francisco shoppers), TeamSave (Toronto only), Scoop St. (for New York City deals), LivingSocial (U. S. cities only so far with Toronto promised), SocialBuy (Los Angeles, San Diego and San Francisco), BuyWithMe (U. S. cities only), SwoopOff, (Los Angeles-based), My Daily Thread, (U. S. markets only) Wowcher (United Kingdom-based, offering U.K. cities).​_


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

Red Flag deals also started their "Deal of the Day" which is the same concept.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Episode 4 was on last night. Lots of strange pitches, though that Don Cherry guy was pretty good!

http://www.cbc.ca/dragonsden/s5.html


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Yeah last night's was pretty good.
I'm surprised the herbal tea chicks got their money.
The corporate training program guys were just pure con artists.
They were so like your typical corporate management stereotypes...full of the same cliches and BS.
I'm glad Kevin dumped on them.

This season I'm noticing that the Dragons are very reluctant to invest in "ideas" and plans that don't have a current sales & revenue stream set up.
This makes it harder for new entrepreneurs to seek funding through them.
I mean, if you already have a sales channel set up, already have revenue pouring in, already have a reasonable net worth for the business, why would you need these dragons...any bank will do a business loan for you.


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## PoorPablo83 (Feb 8, 2010)

FrugalTrader said:


> I watched an episode the other day where Jim (Boston Pizza) bought into the Waffle cart concept @ a valuation of 2 times sales! Great deal for both parties. With Jim's experience with franchises, the waffle company will probably do very well.


There was an article in our local paper about this one as the waffle guy is from Victoria. I must admit, they are damn good waffles! It was cool to see a local business not only on the show, but sealing the deal! I'm curious to see how his business will change or expand now.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

What happened yesterday?
Did I miss the show or did it not run?
I flipped through all the channels between 7:00 and 8:00 and it wasn't on anywhere (Bell Express Vu).


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I don't think it was on. I checked too.


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## Assetologist (Apr 19, 2009)

PoorPablo83 said:


> There was an article in our local paper about this one as the waffle guy is from Victoria. I must admit, they are damn good waffles! It was cool to see a local business not only on the show, but sealing the deal! I'm curious to see how his business will change or expand now.


I agree they are great waffles.

You should also check out West Coast Waffles on Broad St in Victoria.

The West Coast Original is amazing - cream cheese, salmon (lox), capers, onions and maple syrup.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Did anyone see it last night? I had never seen Jim so excited about making a deal. The monster truck was a no-go but those women who lost $800K in the past 4-5 years alarmed me the most. And they wouldn't listen to the Dragons who all told them to stop that poisonous business. Where the heck did they get that kind of money to throw away thusly?


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

yeah I watched it - good episode.
I think that breakfast cereal deal is perhaps the fastest and cleanest deal ever cut on the show.
The monster truck guy was hilarious.
I felt sorry for the woman who was $800K in debt because of that clothing business.
She should have given up a long time ago, or changed strategies.
With about $600K annual sales and no profit, a debt of $800K is way too much.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Very good episode.

Truck was interesting, but their revenues certainly didn't support the cash outlay and time. Expensive truck, gas, repairs etc - need some big $$.

Clothing company was a joke - how the heck do you have $600k in revenue per year and lose money? She said that most of the resulting debt was financed by her dad.

The vitamin E company was interesting - they had a great salesman if nothing else. I loved how the president shut down the offer in the end. 

The cereal part was neat - Jim didn't even try to bargain.


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## mario 1 (Nov 6, 2009)

Does Kevin ever invest in anybody? he seems to be a waste of space.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> She said that most of the resulting debt was financed by her dad.


Indeed the father is the one that invested over $700K, so no wonder she wanted to keep on going as it was not her own money which she lost!

I enjoy the show very much!


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## Lephturn (Aug 31, 2009)

If you guys like DD, you'll really like a much more reasonable startup show:

http://thisweekin.com/thisweekin-startups/

You can't beat free - weekly audio and video podcast. Yeah it's California based and heavily tech weighted but these are much more real startup stories and logs about venture and angel investing. Great stuff.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

mario 1 said:


> Does Kevin ever invest in anybody? he seems to be a waste of space.


He is there for pure entertainment and shock value.
I don't recall him investing much, if any at all.


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## davext (Apr 11, 2010)

I actually like the O'Leary and Lang exchange though on CBC because he says things that no one from the CBC would usually say. 

The CBC mostly represents the opinions of the Left but O'Leary is clearly on the extreme right.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Yeah Lang-O'Leary is a good program.
I watch it only on the days Kevin is on.
Not quite the same when he's not around.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

It's difficult to watch daily at 7pm, but I do so early in the morning while catching up with other daily news. You're right Harold, not the same when Kevin/Amanda are not on.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I really enjoy the episodes when Dave Chilton is on. He and Amanda seem to generate a friendly sexual tension, whereas Amanda plays the role of appeasing the pit bull when Kevin is on.

Also I don't learn much from Kevin anymore.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I thought the show was 'ok' tonight. I liked the Suduko imitation, although I thought it was a bit odd that the guy was only looking for $50k.

Elvis was entertaining, which was the only reason he was on there.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I couldn't believe how much the dragons were fighting with each other to make an offer for that one guy for his puzzle. Jim was foaming at the mouth! Usually he is quiet and passes on the deals. He ended up getting $150K I believe.

Yes, the Elvis guy was entertaining. Loved the way he responded to Kevin's insult and the editing made us all feel like a confrontation was brewing "Kevin, for calling me a nutbar I have two things to say to you" DUN DUN DUN...hehehe. Then he pitches a nutbar as one of his products. Too funny.

Then there was that offer that Brett made which surprised everyone.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Yeah I was totally surprised that the health pills dude got anything at all. I was expecting him to get run over by the dragons any second.

The Lang-O'Leary show earlier was a little disappointing.
I think the bickering between Kevin and Amanda is getting annoying.
I don't know how much of that is real dislike vs. fake but it is starting to affect the quality of the show.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I agree. I still can't quite figure out if Kevin is acting or if he really believes what he says. "Government is evil, less taxes" vs. Amanda who is much further left.

I do like it when Kevin talks to some of these guests from the industry, presidents/CEOs of companies etc as he takes a respectful tone and seem to actually listen to them.

At least Kevin lets you get a word in edge-wise if you interrupt. Many people of his type tend to talk over you.

What did you think of Elvis, Harold?


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> What did you think of Elvis, Harold?


Not much, but then I'm not into the whole Elvis thing.
I thought he was perhaps a good performer, artist, etc. but I don't think it's a business.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

The puzzle guy was interesting. Yields must be very high indeed in that business. Due diligence will quickly prove (or disprove) that notion.

The pills guy is a typical TV huckster. Lots of money to be fleeced from suckers.


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## gleninagh (Jul 24, 2010)

*Kevin O'Leary*

despite his obvious fortune .. i think this guy is a self serving sham... on the show he gives a great pitch about only being in it for the money and its all about making money..etc .. nothing wrong with that...BUT.. i have some funds in an O'Leary fund and it is not exactly making money...it is in fact losing money.. no gains for over a year ... go figure !!


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Did anyone see it this week? The undergarment women (whew!) made a good pitch and spoke well, but had a really high valuation of like $500K on sales last year of $25K and projected sales this year of $50K. They spent a lot of time arguing about the valuation.

I missed some of the other pitches. Were there any more entertaining characters? Crump?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

gleninagh said:


> despite his obvious fortune .. I think this guy is a self serving sham... On the show he gives a great pitch about only being in it for the money and its all about making money..etc .. Nothing wrong with that...but.. I have some funds in an o'leary fund and it is not exactly making money...it is in fact losing money.. No gains for over a year ... Go figure !!


lol!


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

I watched the end of it, saw the def guy trying to sell the smoked salmon/sauce.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Did anyone see it this week? The undergarment women (whew!) made a good pitch and spoke well, but had a really high valuation of like $500K on sales last year of $25K and projected sales this year of $50K. They spent a lot of time arguing about the valuation.
> 
> I missed some of the other pitches. Were there any more entertaining characters? Crump?


Wasn't the best show ever - you didn't miss much.
I was really taken aback that Robert trumped Kevin and Brett's joint offer.
I think Robert could easily have done $200K for 20% instead of Kevin & Brett's $100K for 10%.
I think Robert over-valued this pitch. May have been a momentary competitive juice flowing through him.

The red neck fisherman was probably the most interesting character.
I'm glad the salmon guy got a deal.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

There was a really stupid pitch about a toilet paper holder. You could tell from the beginning that all the dragons thought this was a piece of crap. But KOL threw the gadget on the ground and said so, in a way that I thought was unnecessarily demeaning. True, some of these folks are living in their own fantasy world, but does he have to be so rude?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

heyjude said:


> ...True, some of these folks are living in their own fantasy world, but does he have to be so rude?


You have to appreciate that these guys spend their days dealing with multi-million dollar decisions. So they get insulted once in a while (although their tolerance is higher than mine would be). Maybe they get residuals!


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

heyjude said:


> There was a really stupid pitch about a toilet paper holder. You could tell from the beginning that all the dragons thought this was a piece of crap. But KOL threw the gadget on the ground and said so, in a way that I thought was unnecessarily demeaning. True, some of these folks are living in their own fantasy world, but does he have to be so rude?


Part of it is the "show factor". They have to add some color and shock into the show.
Who's going to watch 5 polite, reasonable, logical investors evaluate business ideas and financial statements?


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Just watched the episode - it was ok.

Salmon guy was interesting - glad they got a deal.

Kevin is a jerk - he is just there to give a clever little speech about why he doesn't like each business.

I can't believe they "followed up" with that crazy guy who wants to build the $1.4 billion dollar UFO hotel/centre. His original presentation was nuts - and if memory serves me - he said his day job was a real estate agent.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Did anyone catch it last night? Bzzzzz.


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

gleninagh said:


> despite his obvious fortune .. i think this guy is a self serving sham... on the show he gives a great pitch about only being in it for the money and its all about making money..etc .. nothing wrong with that...BUT.. i have some funds in an O'Leary fund and it is not exactly making money...it is in fact losing money.. no gains for over a year ... go figure !!



For his fund whether it goes up or down, he still takes his cut from the MER.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

All his funds have warrants too... they have a strike price of 12.00 and none of them seem to hit it either. I've been watching for a while.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Kevin strikes me as the type of guy that, if he lost his fortune, would end up with no friends. So it makes me think all his "friends" are not actually friends. I kinda feel a bit sorry for the guy.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I wonder if he had any friends in school. I find him pitiful. So I am glad he has lots of money. I think Amanda Lang handles him very well on the daily exchange on CBC NN. She is a class act!

But on the Dragon's Den, it would be very boring if he was the decider. I like the prairie entrepreneur and the chick from Calgary.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Did you guys see the ending of the latest show where the Dragons were shooting small rubber arrows at each other and Kevin ended up with one stuck right to his cheek? LMAO!


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I don't think I'm going to watch Dragon's Den anymore. I loved it last year (which was the first year I saw it), but I'm getting tired of watching so many stupid pitches where there either is no real business or no sales or whatever. 

I understand they need entertainment, but having idiots present some crazy idea and then Kevin makes fun of them, is only entertaining the first couple of times.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> I don't think I'm going to watch Dragon's Den anymore. I loved it last year (which was the first year I saw it), but I'm getting tired of watching so many stupid pitches where there either is no real business or no sales or whatever.
> 
> I understand they need entertainment, but having idiots present some crazy idea and then Kevin makes fun of them, is only entertaining the first couple of times.


It's the "15 minutes of fame" thing as well as venue for free advertising. More and more I think it doesn't matter what the dragons say and or do, if you can get on the show, and have any product at all, you can make some money. I enjoyed it more about the business and the plan.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I consider it a reality show where we get to understand just how finacially inept most of the population really is. I suppose anyone with good numbers and a track record would get funding from angel investors. So DD is a source of last resort.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Did anyone catch last night's rerun? It was the episode with the wheelchair and that squeeze toy to guide kids how to bath themselves. 

The Dragons liked the first idea but couldn't get past the valuation. Does anyone know if these guys went any further with the idea since this episode first aired? It's a really good idea and they were good guys. 

The second idea was loathed by all of the Dragons. They urged the couple to stop their bad idea due to so many issues, chiefly of which was the idea to get an electronic toy near a bathtub with a child in it. The couple didn't like the advice given.

And then there was the cookie lady. She was good and ended up making a deal.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

how about putting this thread under General Discussion. It has nothing to w investing as the retail investor or even the accredited investor knows the term.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I didn't realize it was a re-run.
They have been advertising an all new season.
BTW, it seems that the TeamBuy.ca guys are already active.
I have not used it but some friends have reported using Team Buy Oakville.
The idea seemed very similar to Groupon.
I believe Jim invested as a way to drive down his advertising and customer acquisition costs for his franchises like Boston Pizza and Mr. Lube.
I see no other reason for the high valuation for an idea and market like this.

Ideas and businesses like this are crap shoot, for the most part.
99% of them disappear without a whimper and you never know which one sticks and becomes a big name.
Look at social media and what Facebook did to it.
Years before Facebook even came into being, lots of others had started on the same track.
Yahoo had very nice networking capabilities build into their portal, email and messenger.
Micro$oft did some of it with their MNS network, Passport ID and Live links.
None of them had even an iota of success compared to what Facebook did.

So you never know.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

I saw the cookie gal & then realized it was a repeat & did not watch further.

Last weekend I was at The Bay buying perfume and noticed the 'Afghanistan Orange Blossom Eau de Parfum.' Nice success story!

http://www.marketwire.com/press-rel...-Legal-Flowers-Eaux-de-parfum-Now-1393628.htm


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> Last weekend I was at The Bay buying perfume and noticed the 'Afghanistan Orange Blossom Eau de Parfum.' Nice success story!


That's awesome!


----------



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Brett Wilson is leaving! 

Fire up google for details.


----------



## kubatron (Jan 17, 2011)

has anyone noticed these people shoot the episodes in 1 or 2 days - as they always wear the same thing? or do they always wear the same thing and come back over and over?


----------



## lewin (Jan 10, 2011)

kubatron said:


> has anyone noticed these people shoot the episodes in 1 or 2 days - as they always wear the same thing? or do they always wear the same thing and come back over and over?


I heard they wear the same clothes so the producers can edit the pitches into any order, even if they're filmed on different days.


----------



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Did anyone catch last night's episode? There were some very interesting pitches shown.

http://www.cbc.ca/dragonsden/s5.html


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Yeah, last night's was pretty good.
That first dude selling designer glasses seemed a smooth seller more than anything else.
It was ironical that he came asking for $500K when he had that exact amount as debt...and planned to use the equity to get even more debt.
I didn't understand the last investment (the tree seeds).
Seemed like a low margin low volume investment...more emotional/ethical than anything else.
Brett and Jim will probably get the money back easily but wonder how much it will grow.

And next week's preview seemed smashing as well.

Does anyone know when is the last eposide with Brett?
He's supposed to be leaving the show and being replaced.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Does anyone know when is the last eposide with Brett?
> He's supposed to be leaving the show and being replaced.


The last episode is next week, so I gather March 30th is his last appearance. I'm really sad to see Brett go as I liked his compassionate side and oh, let's not forget he is the most handsome Dragon too! 

“there are three ways to contribute,” he 
says of his approach to giving, “the first is 
time, the second is money and the third is 
a combination of the first two; I call that 
leadership.”

"Will the 30 investments I’ve made all work out? Absolutely not. I suspect I’ll write off four or five in the next year because they’re stumbling. But there’s four or five that could become iconic brands in Canada because of the power of the entrepreneur. Any one of those top-five investments will pay for all 30. So I take a portfolio approach."

http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/03/14/...leary-and-what-he-thinks-of-the-bachelorette/

Nice man!


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Did anyone watch the season finale last night?
It was awesome, IMO!
Every single pitch got a deal.
Arlene was pretty pissed off towards the end and had every reason to be, IMO.
Although some of it may be deliberate television drama.
I sometimes wonder whether the show is as extemporaneous as it appears.
Nice concluding show, nevertheless.


----------



## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

I caught bits and pieces of the episode. Yep, some of that tension in the show may have been manufactured by editing. Still, it was a very good show. Not sure I'll watch it next season because Brett was my favorite dragon.


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> Did anyone watch the season finale last night?
> It was awesome, IMO!
> Every single pitch got a deal.
> Arlene was pretty pissed off towards the end and had every reason to be, IMO.
> ...


Very good episode.

I haven't watched the show as much this year, mainly because I got tired of the high percentage of silly presenters. I understand they want to add some humour, but I don't need to see three or four presentations where there is no doubt they won't get any money.

Last night had 100% serious entrepreneurs which is what I like.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

oh, I like the silly presenters.
I like this show for its entertainment quality 
If the majority of pitches were serious and valid and got their deals, the Dragons won't remain Dragons for very long.
Brett was already complaining that this season has been very expensive for him.


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> oh, I like the silly presenters.
> I like this show for its entertainment quality
> If the majority of pitches were serious and valid and got their deals, the Dragons won't remain Dragons for very long.
> Brett was already complaining that this season has been very expensive for him.


I don't mind the entertaining ones (ie Elvis, Don Cherry impersonator). 

What I don't like are the pathetic, sad ones. Ie someone who has been trying to sell their board game for 12 years, mortgaged the family's future and only sold 3 copies so far.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Yeah those are indeed sad cases.
Proves how product ideas are just hit or miss most of the time.
One guy ends up chasing a pipe dream for years for some silly tool or silly board game, while another becomes a millionaire selling a slightly less silly tool or slightly less silly board game.
How do you know?


----------



## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> What I don't like are the pathetic, sad ones. Ie someone who has been trying to sell their board game for 12 years, mortgaged the family's future and only sold 3 copies so far.


Did you say Bulletball?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOOw2yWMSfk


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Yes, some of the people truly are crazy with their ideas. I like to hear everyone out first and let them make their pitch, of course. I appreciate the idiots and good pitches alike.

I see Shark Tank has been on the past few days with Robert and Kevin from DD. I thought ST was cancelled? I may have seen a re-run.


----------



## clovis8 (Dec 7, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> I see Shark Tank has been on the past few days with Robert and Kevin from DD. I thought ST was cancelled? I may have seen a re-run.


Nope season two is on ep 3.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I like Shark Tank. It seems that the wacko and pathetic cases do not make it past the editors, unlike DD. Plus Kevin does not dominate a much.


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Argonaut said:


> Did you say Bulletball?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOOw2yWMSfk


Wow - what a downer.

Dude is nuts.


----------



## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I wonder how many people said that about Thomas Edison as he was trying his 5999th filament in the lightbulb 

"Before I got through," he recalled, "I tested no fewer than 6,000 vegetable growths, and ransacked the world for the most suitable filament material."
"The electric light has caused me the greatest amount of study and has required the most elaborate experiments," he wrote. "I was never myself discouraged, or inclined to be hopeless of success. I cannot say the same for all my associates."
"Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration."

Too bad the Bulletball was such a dud...


----------



## Betzy (Feb 7, 2011)

So who is going to replace Brett?
How many episodes are in the season, seems like it just started...?


----------



## gleninagh (Jul 24, 2010)

*Kevin O'Leary*

personally i believe this guy is a shister.. he may have gotten lucky selling his business at the right time for a ridiculous amount of money... i have stock in an O'Leary fund that has grown by about 0.33% over two years .. and this is the guy how worships money?...lol


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Does anyone know what's up with Kevin these days?
He appears to have dropped out of the Lang-O'Leary show.
Amanda has given up making excuses for him since last week.

The most recent news report I can dig up is from about a month ago on how the CBC had to publicly apologise for his whacko comments around shooting a certain under-performing CEO.
Maybe CBC's cutting him loose and not renewing his contract?

The show is not quite the same without him, although Som and Preet do the best they can.
Regardless of his antics, I liked to hear his views on certain things.


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

O'Leary is entertaining in a Don Cherry sort of way.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I like Som Seif*. He adds intelligent commentary. As long as they keep Amanda, the show will be successful. A little bit goes a long way with Kevin.

Wack the CEOs who do not perform
Buy Gold
Invest in BRIC bonds
Government is evil

Is there any other message? 

(* Som was a headliner in Biz Skule in September 2010.)


----------



## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

gleninagh said:


> personally i believe this guy is a shister.. he may have gotten lucky selling his business at the right time for a ridiculous amount of money... i have stock in an O'Leary fund that has grown by about 0.33% over two years .. and this is the guy how worships money?...lol


Why in the hell do you own an O'leary fund investment.

I don't care how much you are down, pull your money out ASAP


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Mr. Wonderful was back today.
And rightaway, up to his usual antics.
I think he was making a point to CBC and his critics by over-using "shoot".
He must have used that word a dozen times during the program - shoot the journalists, shoot the Google CEOs and so on.
Quite an entertaining show this evening.
And Amanda was looking resplendent


----------



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Did anyone see it this week? Season 6, Episode 7.

http://www.cbc.ca/dragonsden/pitches.html

I especially liked this idea, figured you guys would have a few comments to add to this one. Harold? To.gal, KaeJS?


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Yeah, I have been watching the new season.
This week's episode was great too.
I think the quality of the business deals is better so far this season.
The young entrepreneurs episode a couple of weeks ago was great too.


----------



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Harold, what did you think of the boardroom idea? No commute!


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Harold, what did you think of the boardroom idea? No commute!


Yeah it would work great for those that live and work downtown.
The size of the boardroom would be about the average size of a 1 bdr. apartment downtown


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

It could make our streets bicycle-free! Population density!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Some of the deals the dragons get are, I think, steals. Like the deal they managed to cut on Balzac's coffee a few years ago. They got a big chunk of a growing company at a P/E of 3 or 4. I was amazed that the owner went for it.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

^ that's why they are known as the Dragons 

Similarly, there were some really dubious deals (IMO) that the dragons have signed up for.
I suspect most of those deals are small "play money" for these guys and/or they do it to generate some tax losses for themselves.


----------



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Just a reminder of the existence of this thread. 

What did everyone think of the Ford race car sponsorship idea last night?

Nice to see the ideas by bright minds.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

The Pitch on BNN serves up two investable businesses each time, each with their 90 second elevator pitch. Not as entertaining a DD but all the businesses are closer to becoming investable than those on DD.


----------



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Did anyone catch it last night? 

That one guy had a rather unusual presentation about creating a central online forum for debating all sorts of issues and the system would present ads to posters depending on what sorts of things they debate. The presentation wasn't very convincing and no one offered anything.

Then there was that woman with the healthy cereal and granola snacks. Her valuation was way too high and yet she still managed to get an offer from Jim that I thought was quite good. But she didn't want to give away 40-50% of her business so she turned down the offer. Too bad. I think she should have taken that offer.


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Then there was that woman with the healthy cereal and granola snacks. Her valuation was way too high and yet she still managed to get an offer from Jim that I thought was quite good. But she didn't want to give away 40-50% of her business so she turned down the offer. Too bad. I think she should have taken that offer.


It was a great offer. I suspect she didn't really go on the Den to do a deal - more for the publicity.


----------



## rd_aaron (Jun 24, 2011)

Four Pillars said:


> It was a great offer. I suspect she didn't really go on the Den to do a deal - more for the publicity.


The publicity totally works. We've purchased something that was on DD before.. some "Holy Crap" cereal. I've also googled a few of the other business on there.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I saw last night's episode.
I didn't think Jim's offer was _that _ great in fact.
I understand the 50% ownership part, that's fine.
But the amount of money being offered for 50% was low.
If she wanted Jim's partnership, IMO, she should have given up 50% but asked for a little more money.

Those online debating forum guys were a joke.
The last thing we need is yet another ho-hum "social media" website with more popup windows, scrolling ads, rotating banners, etc.
Eugh!


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> Then there was that woman with the healthy cereal and granola snacks. Her valuation was way too high and yet she still managed to get an offer from Jim that I thought was quite good. But she didn't want to give away 40-50% of her business so she turned down the offer. Too bad. I think she should have taken that offer.


You are right. She was a fool for turning down the 40% offer from Jim.
The products would have done well, and she would have, too, regardless of the 10% she owed to her mother.

Also, may I add, that she is _absolutely gorgeous_. That's like the woman of my dreams. What was her pitch again?


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

KaeJS said:


> Also, may I add, that she is _absolutely gorgeous_. That's like the woman of my dreams. What was her pitch again?


Agreed. But Kae - are you willing to overlook the fact that she has a kid?


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> Agreed. But Kae - are you willing to overlook the fact that she has a kid?




That's a lot of overlooking.

But, I'm pretty sure she doesn't have kids. Where did you read this? 

The product is called "Mom's Healthy Secrets" because of her mother, not that she, herself, is a mother. Because I don't think she is....


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

KaeJS said:


> That's a lot of overlooking.
> 
> But, I'm pretty sure she doesn't have kids. Where did you read this?
> 
> The product is called "Mom's Healthy Secrets" because of her mother, not that she, herself, is a mother. Because I don't think she is....


I thought she said she was a mom, but I might have misunderstood if she was talking about her mom.


----------



## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

Slightly off tangent, but what's up with CBC turning itself into a Kevin O'Leary channel? He's on Dragon's Den and Lang and O'Leary and now has some show called Redemption Inc. What's next? The National with Kevin O'Leary?


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I've actually watched all the Redemption Inc episodes so far.

It's a bit of a cheesy background with the ex convicts and all that, but it's interesting, nonetheless.

Personally, I'm a huge Kevin O'Leary fan. I'd love to meet him some day.

From CBC's point of view, he probably pulls in a lot of viewers because of his attitude/personality. Even the people that hate him want to watch him.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

CanadianCapitalist said:


> Slightly off tangent, but what's up with CBC turning itself into a Kevin O'Leary channel? He's on Dragon's Den and Lang and O'Leary and now has some show called Redemption Inc. What's next? The National with Kevin O'Leary?


The latest issue of the Canadian Business magazine called him _CBC's cartoon capitalist_.

I agree, there is a bit too much of KOL on TV these days.
I suppose membership of O'Leary funds must be going down these days - he has too much time on his hands.


----------



## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> The latest issue of the Canadian Business magazine called him _CBC's cartoon capitalist_.


That's a brilliant tag line. It's ironic that CBC, which is usually thought of as leftist has jumped into bed with someone like KOL.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> I've actually watched all the Redemption Inc episodes so far.
> 
> It's a bit of a cheesy background with the ex convicts and all that, but it's interesting, nonetheless.
> 
> ...


I agree with every word above, except I only watched 1/2 an episode of Redemption Inc. [not my cup of tea], no matter how much I like uncle Kevin.

Not sure that I would watch Dragons' Den without him [unless he was replaced with hot Brett Wison]  

And The Lang & O'Leary show is not as 'informative' without Kevin, LOL [j/k Harold, I know you have the hots for Amanda].


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> [j/k Harold, I know you have the hots for Amanda].


Doesn't everyone?


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Nope.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> [j/k Harold, I know you have the hots for Amanda].


Don't even go there


----------



## canadian_investor (Jul 4, 2011)

i have been watching this show for a long time now and i have to admit i don't understand the whole valuation game that the dragons play with the business folks.
the dragons, and mostly kevin o leary, keep valuing the business based on p/e ratios, p/s ratios etc. and other traditional metrics used for mature, listed companies.

_but these are upstarts, venture businesses_.

most of them do not have any sales. most are still home based businesses, most have very little sales, most entreprenuers are not paying themselves a salary yet.

so these metrics are not going to be relevant.

the pitch is for the idea, not for the income statement and the balance sheet.
if they had solid income statements and cash flows and balance sheet, they would simply go to the nearest bank for a business loan.
why would they come to the dragon's den?

i am not saying a business should not be evaluated based on numbers.
but imo these guys are comparing apples to oranges.

i don't get it.


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

canadian_investor said:


> i don't get it.


Very easy to understand.

The dragons already _have_ money. They are already rich.

Once you are rich, you have more to lose, so you need to stop being a risk taker. They don't invest in anything that has the slightest possibility of _losing_ money.

Just put yourself in their shoes. If you had all this money, would you make a risky bet? Of course not. There's no need. You're already rich.

Essentially, the dragons are just like vultures. They wait for the people with good ideas and good products that are already making sales and then they just offer cash to make some profit.


----------



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

LOL hey, I like Amanda too. Smart woman, though sometimes she doesn't like to hear the truth and has to deal with it on the show. And that's when it becomes testy.


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

^ As I said,

Who _doesn't_ like Amanda? 

(P.S. TRM, did you notice I didn't use the quote feature? )


----------



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Did anyone see it last night? Seemed to be a recap of some of their most memorable episodes. I hadn't seen the one where Robert ripped up that $200K cheque after being insulted in due diligence by that teacher. Wow.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Did anyone see it last night? Seemed to be a recap of some of their most memorable episodes. I hadn't seen the one where Robert ripped up that $200K cheque after being insulted in due diligence by that teacher. Wow.


Yeah, they had showed that earlier in the season.
The full recording of that prof. challenging Robert, Jim and Kevin is longer and quite surprising.


----------



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I guess my question is what was the prof trying to prove? Was he looking for fame? Why did he go for the throat and start a fight like that? It looked like he wanted to start teaching the dragons something on the board room white board - I thought WTF, this isn't his classroom, the boys had gotten the cheque, they should have taken it and ran!


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

It was fun reminiscing the 'sex, drugs and rock n' roll' episodes. :highly_amused:


----------



## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

Also, next season, Robert will be replaced by Dave Chilton, the Wealthy Barber.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

I like Dave! But too bad the show is not replacing him with a woman [like Amanda; pretty/smart, but not rich enough]. 

Should be another fun/successful season no doubt.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> I guess my question is what was the prof trying to prove? Was he looking for fame? Why did he go for the throat and start a fight like that? It looked like he wanted to start teaching the dragons something on the board room white board - I thought WTF, this isn't his classroom, the boys had gotten the cheque, they should have taken it and ran!


He was playing a business professor, that's all.
He thought he would "teach" the dragons a thing or two about business.


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> I like Dave! But too bad the show is not replacing him with a woman [like Amanda; pretty/smart, but not rich enough].
> 
> Should be another fun/successful season no doubt.


I would love to see Amanda Lang on there. Or any other show for that matter.

I only watched half the show yesterday - I found it quite boring.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

^ Looks like the Amanda Lang fan club is growing 
I called dibs on CMF first, at least 2 years ago


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> too bad the show is not replacing him with a woman [like Amanda; pretty/smart, but not rich enough].


^ This and....



Four Pillars said:


> I would love to see Amanda Lang on there. .


^ This.


----------



## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

I look forward to David Chilton on the next season.


----------



## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

I know that Chilton is well off, but I did not think he is affluence is anywhere near the level to be a dragon. When I've heard him interviewed, he has described his fairly modest and middle-class style lifestyle. Perhaps he's worth more on paper.


----------



## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

Spidey said:


> I know that Chilton is well off, but I did not think he is affluence is anywhere near the level to be a dragon. When I've heard him interviewed, he has described his fairly modest and middle-class style lifestyle. Perhaps he's worth more on paper.


Dave does live very modestly. But consider:

1. The barber books are self-published. 
2. The original barber book sold 2million copies in Canada alone.
3. The book was also a best seller in the US.
4. Dave also co-published the cooking book phenom Looney Spoons.
5. Dave is a big star in the speaking circuits.

Put it all together and I wouldn't be surprised if Dave turned out to be the biggest of the dragons next season.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Chilton does a great job when he replaces KO on LOLX. Seems to come across as genuine. I hope he gets a word in against KO's babbling.

I thought the season finale was boring. I would have liked to see some stats on the deals by participant and success rates. Also the ones that got away.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Dragons' Den is back, starting Wednesday, September 19th at 8 p.m., with new Dragon David Chilton!

http://www.cbc.ca/dragonsden/2012/08/dragons-den-returns-wednesday-september-19th.html


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

On a related note, my husband saw Robert driving in his Ferrari with the top down yesterday.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Do you think he bought it new or used? :biggrin:


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Just a reminder that the new season starts tonight.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

So, what's the verdict?
I watched the show and overall, not a bad start.
Chilton seems like a great personality but I got the feeling he was throwing his money away too much.
He jumped at 3 or 4 deals just during the first episode.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Remember that the segments are not in chronological order. They may have deliberately picked segments where Chilton featured prominently for the first episode.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Remember that the segments are not in chronological order. They may have deliberately picked segments where Chilton featured prominently for the first episode.


So they wear the same clothes every time? Eww..


----------



## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

I liked the tension (probably manufactured through editing) between Chilton and O'Leary. It's nice to see the show giving the spotlight to another dragon for a change. It was becoming too much of an O'Leary and friends show.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Yup, the tension is definitely manufactured because it works!

I missed the 1st 1/4 of the show, but the best IMO, were the luggage boys, and were they not from Waterloo, where Chilton lives? No wonder he was so protective of them at first. 

The aerospace pitch was the strangest. 

For those that can't get enough of Mr. Wonderful, he's now daily on CBC at 6:30 p.m. for a 1/2 hour edition of The Lang & O'Leary Exchange.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> So they wear the same clothes every time? Eww..


Well, they probably have many copies of the same outfit.

Whenever they are taping Dragon's Den, KO'L shows up to the Lang and O'Leary Exchange in his DD get-up. One year it was a black suit with a black tie, day after day. It seemed like they taped over several weeks.

Personally, I'm not a KO'L fan--he doesn't add much information to LOLX, just lots of noise. I watch news programs for insight and information, not the same rant about taxation, evil unions, government auto-bailouts, investing in Brazilindiachina, 1/3 of all government spending is waste (as if it is a law of physics). Even when I agree with him, I find him irritating because he's just repeating the same arguments. Then he badgers guests, asks them leading questions ("Don't you agree that I am correct on issue X?"). He's a waste of airtime on LOLX. His schtick is more appropriate on DD.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Personally, I'm not a KO'L fan--he doesn't add much information to LOLX, just lots of noise. I watch news programs for insight and information, not the same rant about taxation, evil unions, government auto-bailouts, investing in Brazilindiachina, 1/3 of all government spending is waste (as if it is a law of physics). Even when I agree with him, I find him irritating because he's just repeating the same arguments. Then he badgers guests, asks them leading questions ("Don't you agree that I am correct on issue X?"). He's a waste of airtime on LOLX.


A lot of that is a put-on show for the sake of TV controversy and entertainment.
Specifically on the LOLX, we need someone to offset the out-there champagne socialism of Amanda Lang.
And someone to offset her unbearably good looks.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> A lot of that is a put-on show for the sake of TV controversy and entertainment.
> Specifically on the LOLX,
> we need someone to offset the out-there champagne socialism of Amanda Lang.
> And someone to offset her unbearably good looks.


Brilliant post Harold. :applouse:


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Agree that Amanda has some socialist instincts, and makes emotional appeals. On balance, she's more level-headed than Kevin. Usually the guest hosts are a better counterpoint to Amanda. But gawd forbid financial news didn't involve several bouts of terse arguments each episode.


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## stardancer (Apr 26, 2009)

RE Lang and O'Leary Exchange: I am at the point that if O'Leary is on, I don't watch. If it's Amanda alone or with a guest host, I will, because I can actually learn something.

I still won't miss Dragons Den however. It's not all KOL, and I really like the others. Good personality balance. I try to guess if the pitch will get a deal or not and why before it happens.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

It seems to me (i have no idea though)that the wealthy barber is the ''poor'' man of the bunch?Just from a outside prospective(i realize he has done well)but he can't be anywhere close to the others or in the same league.(he is a odd choice imo)

Some of the ideas that come through there screening is ridiculous.....the guy that wanted to fly,lol.....they should drop that slap-stick.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Actually star, KOL and Lang are ideaologically opposite. That's sort of the point of having them both on. Notice sometimes when Lang isn't on, Diane Bucker will sit in her place and play the same leftist role that Lang always does. I think that's the theme of the show.

Speaking of ridiculous ideas, I think these people should pitch their products on DD. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAQjF5RPgbg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUbWjIKxrrs


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Kevin isn't even a proper conservative. He's more of a teabagger "Keep your government hands of my medicare". Or "I was on welfare, I was on foodstamps and nobody helped me out!"

I'd rather have more thoughtful conservatives on like Andrew Coyne.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Good article on Mr. O'Leary in the Globe today.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...just-plays-one-on-tv/article4564334/?page=all

I think I've read most of it before (ie he's not a billionaire), but a good read nonetheless.


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## JimmyAAA (Mar 28, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Kevin isn't even a proper conservative. He's more of a teabagger "Keep your government hands of my medicare". Or "I was on welfare, I was on foodstamps and nobody helped me out!"
> 
> I'd rather have more thoughtful conservatives on like Andrew Coyne.


Nah, he is strictly a capitalist. The only politics he cares about are what affects the bottom line. That will usually put him the conservative camp. But if you could prove that welfare moms would buy his products more than any other group and the profit would outweigh his higher taxes, he would be a died in the wool socialist.


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## groceryalerts (May 5, 2009)

JimmyAAA said:


> Nah, he is strictly a capitalist. The only politics he cares about are what affects the bottom line. That will usually put him the conservative camp. But if you could prove that welfare moms would buy his products more than any other group and the profit would outweigh his higher taxes, he would be a died in the wool socialist.


I am growing tired of this show. They don't show serious established businesses and many do it for the PR and are never funded. Also, why would anyone give these "dragons" so much equity is beyond me. Do you think anyone in Silicon Valley asks for so much?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Check out 'The Big Decision'. They used Arlene and Jim to do more long form pitches, and with established businesses. It was interesting. 

I wish they wouldn't show the really wacky, ill-prepared ones. They are boring. Like the guy who wanted to make a suit to jump out of a plane, and pitched on the basis of a model he made out of cardboard and felt.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

I don't know about others but I'm not sure about David Chilton as a Dragon - I know that he must be well off but he just doesn't seem rich enough. Too bad Brett Wilson left - he was the perfect counter-balance to Kevin. Zig Ziglar sometimes says that you can judge a "big man" by how he treats "little men". Brett Wilson provided a good example that you can be wealthy without being insensitive.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Check out 'The Big Decision'. They used Arlene and Jim to do more long form pitches, and with established businesses. It was interesting.
> 
> I wish they wouldn't show the really wacky, ill-prepared ones. They are boring. Like the guy who wanted to make a suit to jump out of a plane, and pitched on the basis of a model he made out of cardboard and felt.


Very much agree on both points.

Big Decision was excellent.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Som seif imo would be perfect for this show(even the timing)Id love to see him in the den,and go at it with jim,ko and company.They do need to revive the show.K.o is a lot tamer in shark tank(which is a better show)

I always wonder how much the dragons really make off there ''investments"?wonder what the failure rate is(with them on board)Im thinking the investments are secondary to the ''fame" they get from being on tv and the contracts they sign with cbc-wonder what the dragons make per episode?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Did anyone catch last night's new episode?

Also, please note that reruns are also on CBC at 4PM. I've been watching some of those as well and can see I missed quite a few older episodes. There were a lot of nutbars in the past, not so much these days.

Love Dianne Buckner - she's perfect as host of that show.

The main problem I see with the pitches these days is the valuations are way too high.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I saw the show yesterday.
I thought the Wealthy Barber made a bad deal on that pet hotel.
I didn't think it was worth a deal, and certainly not at the valuation he gave them.

The other deals were ok.

I agree about Dianne Buckner - she is well suited to the Dragon's Den.
She ought to stay there, and stay out of the Lang O'Leary Exchange.
Leave that to the professionals.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> I agree about Dianne Buckner - she is well suited to the Dragon's Den. She ought to stay there, and stay out of the Lang O'Leary Exchange.
> Leave that to the professionals.


LOL, but you're right.

I think TRM watches the reruns for Dianne & not for missed episodes.  

I missed the show last night, so can't comment on the pitches.


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## Echo (Apr 1, 2011)

I don't get how a start-up with a few thousand bucks in sales can turn around and say they're worth a million bucks. Clueless.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Yesterday I saw one of the most fascinating episodes ever. Has anyone else seen this one? I know it's a rerun but it's my first time seeing the pitch for Higher Vibrations Holistic Healing & Wellness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpMU7dMrRg4

I am fascinated and blown away by how this ends, wow.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

This rerun was on yesterday. Has anyone seen this episode?

http://www.cbc.ca/dragonsden/2012/09/wizofbiz-1.html

Thoughts?


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Yeah, I saw it last season as well as yesterday.
A very funny pitch.
Like the dragons, I couldn't figure out exactly what they are selling.

I think it would have helped if they had shown a demo. of the web site.
Like put it up on the screen and show how a typical small business owner will request services, review, and pay for it.
If a website is all you got, at least show a demo of it.


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## Harp (Jul 18, 2012)

I was going to start a new thread but thought I would just tag onto this one.

I just recently started watching both Dragons Den and SharkTank and LOVE IT! I literally am watching reruns from like 2009! 

My question is more about Dragons Den - how does the valuations work? I know if someone is asking the Dragons for, say $100,000 and a 40% stake in the company then they are valuing the entire company @ $250,000. But what does that valuation include? All the assets and debt of the company?


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Harp said:


> But what does that valuation include?


Valuation is in the eye of the beholder, to plagiarize a popular phrase.
In the case of small, private, sole proprietor, startup businesses like the ones on Dragon's Den, that is very true.
Each of the Dragons may use whatever valuation metric or mechanism they like to use.
It is all a negotiation game.

There can be many ways to value a business.
A quick and crude way is the market cap (which won't work for private businesses, only public).

Then there is Enterprise Value:
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/enterprisevalue.asp

Then there is the Discounted Cash Flow Model, preferred by value investors such as Warren Buffet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discounted_cash_flow


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Kevin o is leaving the den(for shark tank,full time-joining robert h)and bruce is leaving also.
I don't know but my guess is put a fork in it,it's done!Like him or hate him kevin ''made'' the show and carried it(jmo)
I don't know the new dragons but this seems like the beginning of the end,maybe i am wrong,maybe it still has legs but id hate to see cbc play it out like nbc did when trumps show ran it's course and it almost got embarrassing to watch the obvious demise.
Only a touch over a mill in viewership per ep/shark tank-8 mill per ep.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

I think you're right.
O'Leary and others don't want to be has-beens and hangers-on IMO.
WHen you consider the fact that the show has been so successful, it could well be that the only way from here is down (that is, lower ratings).
How "fresh" can a show like that remain from season to season - the smart ones will get out when they aren't type-cast and predictable as dragons.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Yeah,that's the thing,dragon's den is a reality show and reality shows peak or hang-on to a slow death.
prime time tv needs something new and fresh(every few yrs) and i think the public is likely starting to get tired of watching a eccentric mompreneur pitching this/that and the other ect.
I noticed the cbc is trying to spin the shows theme into a antiques roadshow meets dragon's den-Four rooms,this show to me at least is a tell tale sign that the end is near,for dragon's den(trying to catch new magic?)
Cbc has also lost strombo and obviously hockey night in canada,tough days ahead i suspect for cbc--
I wonder how much longer kevin o is going to be headlining with lang on that show,i see he seems to getting a lot more air on cnbc these days,and likely wants it that way.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

Vikram is a dragon now
http://www.hindustantimes.com/punja...j-to-enter-dragon-s-den/article1-1195420.aspx


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## Harp (Jul 18, 2012)

Yeah with Bruce and Kevin leaving my time watching the show has come to an end. Sorry but their 2 replacements just don't cut the mustard for me.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Did anyone catch last night's interesting update episode? I found it interesting and amusing. Kevin invited the inventor to his cottage for some quality wine and burned the DAY TRADER board game while providing evil laugh. Bruce was surprised by the guy with the solar farm in Welland who made $5M. I was very moved by the 82 year old who got to see his saw horse invention at Home Depot. A very feel-good show, nice to see how these lives have been positively affected by the show.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

It was a re-run of Wed's show.
This was the season finale, I believe.

I found KOL's charade of burning the board game hilarious, and quite unnecessary.
I mean, the bottle of wine that he opened is probably worth more than the entire assets of the board game company.

Also, there was an update on the female perfume entrepreneur from a couple of seasons back on the LOLX last week.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Anyone caught the new season of Dragons' Den last night? 

I liked the 2 new Dragons, and did not miss Mr. Wonderful at all [to my surprise].


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Toronto.gal said:


> Anyone caught the new season of Dragons' Den last night?
> 
> I liked the 2 new Dragons, and did not miss Mr. Wonderful at all [to my surprise].


 .... no? But I thought he was the most popular or "watched" guy on the show :biggrin: ... but again, I don't watch DD so what do I know?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> Anyone caught the new season of Dragons' Den last night?
> 
> I liked the 2 new Dragons, and did not miss Mr. Wonderful at all [to my surprise].


KOL is spending more time at Shark Tank these days.

Watched it, but.thought it was a bit boring..even with new people. Jim looked very tired.
The two new guys ​Vikram Vij and Michael Wekerle seemed more serious on the first episode.

KOL who mostly played the "class clown was usually outspoken and "to the point", usually insulting
the ones pitching for some funding, what he thought about their proposals...a cruel form of rejection, but entertaining.."squash you like a bug"..etc.

Then there were the "rejects" (the edited pitches) that were put on for entertainment value, and of course the "eye candy" girls...:biggrin:

With the budget cuts at the CBC, it is doubtful that DD will continue after this one, but it remains to be seen.

Some other long time series on the CBC are now in their final season...Republic of Doyle.


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## dotnet_nerd (Jul 1, 2009)

How does the accounting work for the capital investment on this show?

Take a simple example. Suppose the valuation is agreed to be $500,000 and the shark offers $100,000 for a 20% stake. In a regular corporation, the owner(s) would sell 20% of the shares and pocket the $100,000. (And can now benefit from the capital gains exemption on the sale of shares of a privately owned company)

But on the show the money is staying in the business. So the shark isn't really putting in $100,000 rather $80,000. Because the money is going into the bank account that he now owns 20% of.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

It was alright.
I thought Vij way overpaid for the first deal.
And that book reader guy has got to be the worst screw-up ever in Dragon's Den.
He went from 2 sets of very generous offers, but left with nothing because he got too cocky & insolent.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Oh man that book reader guy... during the preview snippets when Chilton says "you insulted my friend" I was thinking "oh geez what off the cuff comment did the dragons overreact to this time?" But the guy was so hilariously rude to Arlene. And he seemed very put together and spoke well during his pitch...

Sometimes though I wonder if those outrageous situations on the show are evil genius on the part of the contestant. Shrewd businessmen with no intention of making a deal - only angling themselves to make sure their pitch gets a full 10 minute segment and not just a 20 second highlight clip, or cut out completely...


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## CPA Candidate (Dec 15, 2013)

dotnet_nerd said:


> How does the accounting work for the capital investment on this show?
> 
> Take a simple example. Suppose the valuation is agreed to be $500,000 and the shark offers $100,000 for a 20% stake. In a regular corporation, the owner(s) would sell 20% of the shares and pocket the $100,000. (And can now benefit from the capital gains exemption on the sale of shares of a privately owned company)
> 
> But on the show the money is staying in the business. So the shark isn't really putting in $100,000 rather $80,000. Because the money is going into the bank account that he now owns 20% of.


I wouldn't assume any of the people on the show have a corporation set up, they probably just a proprietorship.

If it were a corporation, the proportional stake taken in the company would probably be achieved by issuing new shares if it were indeed equity financing. So if there were 100 shares outstanding and a 20% stake was taken, then would issue 25 shares for cash (25/125 is 20%)

On your last point the problem is you are thinking of equity as being "spent".


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

There is also a due diligence phase, and if any of the claims (mostly sales claims) are not verified, the deal is either cancelled or modified.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I want that food that Vij was shown preparing in the introduction to the show.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

I have to say, that I like Mike Wekerle. I feel like he is going to make some wild offers.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Interesting episode last night. I like Arlene's outfit. The den is much quieter now that Kevin has been replaced by Mike, the man of many words. I was so happy that former steel worker from Hamilton got a deal for his food truck operation. I was astounded at the amount of revenue such trucks can bring in. I was a bit disappointed that the sun visor idea was shot down. I know exactly what he means. That low sun is a real pain and having to keep the entire visor down makes it impossible to see at times. At least with some tweaks on his invention we would be able to just block out the sun itself. Good idea.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I think Vij is an excellent addition to the den.
But the show just feels dull & insipid with KOL gone.
I am not sure what to make of Werkele just yet...he looks like a loose cannon.

I feel next season Jim might bow out as well...he is looking out of sorts.
That "billion-dollar bomb" was clearly a staged stunt...


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> 1. The *den is much quieter* now that Kevin has been replaced by Mike, the man of many words.
> 2. I was so happy that former *steel worker from Hamilton got a deal for his food truck operation.*
> 3. At least with some tweaks on his invention we would be able to just block out the sun itself. *Good idea.*


*1.* Indeed quite bloodless.  But to my surprise, I don't yet find the show boring without Mr. W. I do wish he had been replaced with a Michelle though.
*2.* I was thrilled as well! I thought the poor guy would have cried if VV had not come to his rescue. 
*3.* He invested $75K in his invention, and likely won't abandon it; we might even see a surprising update.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Now my other 2 fav. dragons are leaving. 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...st-star-to-leave-dragons-den/article22984091/


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## JordoR (Aug 20, 2013)

Arlene, David, and Jim are the only ones that I liked on the show (and VV to a lesser extent) without them I don't see myself watching the show anymore.


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