# Is the "honeymoon" over with the Ontario Liberal gov't (again) ?



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Saw a news clip of Andrea Horwath holding some kind of press conference, talking about the actions and the plans of the Liberal Wynne gov't and their plans
to sell off Hydro One to raise some money to pay off the debt they are getting themselves into.



> The government would sell the 60 per cent portion through an initial public offering. What the Province could make isn’t known, but Ms. Horwath said during the press conference the government would make $4 billion.





> The government of Ernie Eves tried to sell Hydro One in the early 2000s, but backed down because of public pressure. Ms. Horwath said public pressure is needed to stop the Wynne government.
> 
> People have to “stand up and have their say,” she said. “It’s the wrong choice by Kathleen Wynne and people will pay the price.”





> Money from the sale would be used to pay for some of the $130 billion the government wants to spend over the next 10 years on transit and infrastructure.
> 
> Ms. Horwath noted the *money from a Hydro One sale would only cover three per cent of the government’s costs*.


http://www.durhamregion.com/news-st...in-oshawa-to-raise-concern-of-hydro-one-sale/


So there you go..first they sell off Hydro One..up go the electricity costs again and again, high as they are already.

Premier Wynne will say.."what else can we sell?"
oh there's the LCBO.....ok how much can we raise if we privatize that?
"oh maybe 4 or 5billion, give or take a few"

Not enough says Premier Wynne..what else can we sell?"
Uh there's not a heck of a lot of provincial owned corporations to sell, Ms Wynne...
"But we are still short 120 billion in the provincial cookie jar..we need to raise 130 billion and it has been empty for a long time now!"
You can sell Provincial bonds to finance the infrastructure.
You can cut services (hospitals/schools and gov't) or raise taxes.

"Oh, I guess we will have to do that then...maybe Tim (Hudak) was right after all? "


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

I hate how these decisions to sell things get made, then the taxpayer is left with one less asset. It would be better imo to lease ownership for a period of time. Although contractually I am aware that can be easier said than done.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> So there you go..first they sell off Hydro One..up go the electricity costs again and again, high as they are already.


 and yes, it will go up, as Hydro 1 is a monopoly..... we don't have Hydro 2. Hydro 3 etc that will compete with each other ....

She can sell also some Highways , so ETR will be not only 407 , but some others....

I'd advise het to sell Parliament building in Toronto and move to a cheaper place


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

gibor said:


> and yes, it will go up, as Hydro 1 is a monopoly..... we don't have Hydro 2. Hydro 3 etc that will compete with each other ....
> 
> She can sell also some Highways , so ETR will be not only 407 , but some others....
> 
> I'd advise het to sell Parliament building in Toronto and move to a cheaper place


Ok Hydro One has not been the most efficient provincially owned corporation, and is still a dead weight in some ways from the breakup of that
inefficiently run "financial albatross" that was once Ontario Hydro. Nothing was done by the provincial gov't of many years to clean up the dead wood
(overpaid employees, many on the sunshine list back then) and the sheer scale of the waste. When they broke up Ontario Hydro into OPG (Ontario Power
Generation) and Hydro One (the distribution entity) millions of stranded debt was left for the taxpayers to pay..on their hydro bill..and we are
still paying that today.

Now Wynne, who was in McGuinty's cabinet, who cancelled the gas plants and cost us over $500 million (maybe more) wants to sell off 60 to 70% of
Hydro One..and retain 30% of the shares for...what? You cannot have much say if you are a minority shareholder. 



> We’ve seen this movie before. Mike Harris and Ernie Eves began to privatize and deregulate parts of Ontario’s hydro system in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Since then, Ontarians have seen their hydro bills skyrocket. On May 1, 2015, they went up again. Since 2003, bills have nearly quadrupled and according to data from Manitoba Hydro, Ontarians pay the highest bills in Canada. That’s not a fluke.





> The Liberals will say they need to sell Hydro One so they can build things like the 407 East. It’s just not true. T*his plan will pay for only 3 per cent of their transit and infrastructure promises*.


http://www.oshawaexpress.ca/viewposting.php?view=7963


Ok, so who then, is going to pay for the other 97%..the users and the taxpayers. 

Alberta kicked out the corrupted PC gov't..maybe this is an indication that Ontario may also go this route?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Selling assets is like selling your furniture to pay one small bill.

It was Ontarians wanting a long list of services and benefits, but not wanting to pay for them that created this mess.

Every government for a long time has just run up the bills for another day.

"Another day" has arrived and people still believe they can get away with not raising taxes, simply by cutting public service jobs.

The savings on public service job cuts would be a drop in the bucket.

There is always the other option.

Peter Schiff says the US will never pay off it debtors. They could never afford to without putting the country into the abyss. If necessary, they will default on the debt.

I think a lot of governments are going to be faced with the "Greek" decision one day. Pay off the debt and suffer..........or screw the lenders.

If defaults happen, lenders won't lend to governments and there will be enormous problems.........but maybe that isn't a bad thing to start fresh.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

I feel tainted voting liberal after this decision to 'sell the furniture', but there really was no viable option imho.

The PCs rep, Hudak, did nothing but spout annecdotes in the debate, about people he'd talked to, and one of the basic cornerstones of his platform was based on bad math that a grade 5 child coulda figured out, and he refused to back down on it.

Seems trouble with the math is maybe an inherent issue with the PCs?

Time to step up NDP !!!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Time to step up NDP !!!


 It's time for PC to find good candidate and time for voters to think!


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

mrPPincer said:


> I feel tainted voting liberal after this decision to 'sell the furniture', but there really was no viable option imho.
> .
> .
> .
> Time to step up NDP !!!


I feel 100% the same way. I emailed my local MPP my opposition to the sale, not that it'll likely make much difference.

I'm in favor of new transit (which is where some of the proceeds will go), but not at any cost. This is just plain dumb. Clean up the mess, bring in new MGMT to Hydro One, run it efficiently. Just get it done and forget about the sale.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

got a majority, but the effin cowards are too scared to do the right thing and hike consumption tax to pay their bills until they get spending under control (if ever), instead they sell the future in an ill-advised attempt to save perceived future votes, eff them x10, never again.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mrPPincer said:


> got a majority,...... are too scared to do the right thing and hike consumption tax to pay their bills until they get spending under control (if ever), instead they sell the future in an ill-advised attempt to save perceived future votes,


Well said mrPPincer. It happened in Alberta...now will the unionists still support her in the next election?

With the latest back to work legislation (mind you they do have a point to try and save the school year for HS students), it seems to me, that the enthusiasm by the unions to vote in the (wolf in sheep's clothing? (or is it the sheep in wolf's clothing?), is fading fast. The grumbling has already begun..and it is only going to get worse as the opposition (NDP) stall or refuse to provide any assistance to current legislation being passed.

Having a majority, she can still ram legislation (according to her and her party's beliefs) that it is for the good of Ontario...eat it!...and let's not worry about what will happen 3-4 years down the road...we are driving this bus!..and we will drive it no matter what people think! 

Is this the current mindset of our Ontario Liberals? 

"The voters?...who cares about voters..I still got 3 more years in my mandate..and first we need to hold a yard sale to sell off assets belonging to the people of Ontario.."

"Who's complaining that things could get worse in the future if we go this route....hey..voters..I gave you beer available in grocery stores near you...just pay the extra tax..ok?"

"Oh yes, how about chipping in a few more bucks on your car licence sticker or personal licence,next time it gets renewed!"

"Health care?....who needs health care..we're cutting back the hospital budgets too...so what if they have to lay off more staff..not my problem!...see me running..I'm fit as fiddle...and maybe you should try running too!

"Teachers?...what are they asking for now?...no way! No giving in! Let them eat crow for all I care! I need to balance the budget in 2019 so I can show the voters that I keep my promises...squeeze the school budgets..shut down some schools..overcrowd others....build more portable units.."

"I am the pied piper of Ontario...let me lead the way..children follow......"


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Centralized negotiations with the Province was a Mike Harris PC government initiative and it has been a total failure.

The government should restore negotiations back to the local school boards and let them to cost their programs through local municipal tax assessment.

As one parent noted on a radio talk show, "the working conditions of the teachers is the learning conditions for our kids."

Let the local community and parents decide what kind of education system they want.

The teachers have suggested a system that ties wage increases with the cost of living. That would remove wages and benefits from the negotiating table.

Corporate labor lawyer Howard Levitt, representing the conservative right wing doesn't agree with that, and he doesn't agree with mandatory arbitration either.

He advocates ordering the teachers back to work. removing the right to strike, and lowering their pay to "the same as private industry" whatever that means.

If Leavitt represents the Ontario Conservative policy..............they have no hope of winning in Ontario, regardless of what Wynne does for the next 4 years.

The Conservatives just don't understand the dynamics at play.

In the same radio show, many parents expressed the belief that governments don't value teachers highly enough, and that teachers should be among the highest paid professionals in Ontario. They want our system to compare to the best education systems where teachers are highly trained, highly regarded and highly paid.

On education, there seems to be a disconnect between what Ontarians want and what their government thinks they want.

Maybe we are entering a new future world, where more of our individual dollars are going to be directed to educating our kids, providing health care for our citizens, and providing safe food and drinking water..................and less of our incomes will be left to spend on IPhones, data plans, and cheap crap from China.

It is after all..............a matter of priorities.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

I haven't been following the details, but I'm surprised people here would be complaining about cutting spending, albeit it is for hospital budgets and education. I thought people here complained about the fact that the hospitals should be cutting administrators/clerical workers and that teachers should be happy to get what they get.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

bgc_fan said:


> I haven't been following the details, but I'm surprised people here would be complaining about cutting spending, albeit it is for hospital budgets and education. I thought people here complained about the fact that the hospitals should be cutting administrators/clerical workers and that teachers should be happy to get what they get.


Well they are not cutting any administrators..the cuts affect the lower levels (nursing, and maintenance...the people that clean the rooms and corridors and keep the hospitals germ free)...

The CEOs get pay increases and additional benefits..arrive at their parking spots in expensive cars, wearing expensive suits...



> He is also eligible for an additional 25 per cent of his base salary if he and the hospital met certain goals and objectives. How much of that salary < the ceo> will earn won't be determined until the fiscal year is completed on March 31.
> 
> But if he were to get the full 25 per cent, it would push his salary to $647,125.
> 
> ...


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-hospital-exec-salaries-disclosed-1.1180570


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

carverman said:


> Well they are not cutting any administrators..the cuts affect the lower levels (nursing, and maintenance...the people that clean the rooms and corridors and keep the hospitals germ free)...
> 
> The CEOs get pay increases and additional benefits..arrive at their parking spots in expensive cars, wearing expensive suits...
> 
> ...


For the Ottawa Hospital, there are a total of 87.96 full-time equivalent position cuts:
25.83 - vacant, 13.56 - unionized admin, 13 - non-unionized admin, 32.57 - other health professionals (social, nutritionists, physio), 3 - nurses

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-hospital-announces-more-cuts-to-balance-budget-1.3090568

Then again, it is probably up to the individual hospitals to determine where to cut.

I'm not a big fan of incentive pays or extra bonuses in the public sector like that, but it is probably comparable to what is available in the private sector.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

I thinks it's about to get ugly..?

The ETFO are NOT happy and are planning revenge for the next school year I'm sure. 

Ms Wynne and her minister better get the message *soon*, that the unions are not going to back down.

I think she needs to take a different approach.. because this all could come crashing around her head..if she P*sses off the
teachers it will not go well for Ms Wynne...and this is a repeat of what happened under Mr. (No new taxes-read my lips) McGuinty...

....as they say the " the green apple doesn't fall far from the Liberal tree" 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...trike-action-to-escalate-union-says-1.3092840

The victims caught between a rock (Liberals) and a hardplace (unions)..will be the kids.


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