# Electrical bikes



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Now that the warm weather is here and my rusty manual bike doesn't seem to work properly, I'm considering getting an electrical bike. Has anyone here had experience with an electrical bike and if so, any suggestions for model and where to purchase here in hogtown, Toronto?


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

You could try this:

https://www.costco.ca/Urban-Ryder-Men’s-7-speed-Electric-Bicycle.product.100057971.html

Nice thing with it being costco is that you could try it out for a week and if you don't like it take it back. A bit of an abuse of their return policy but you should get something for that $55 membership fee.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Thanks, nice price there. So far smaller independents are ranging from $2K and up ... and no tryouts (which is okay with me).


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> Now that the warm weather is here and my rusty manual bike doesn't seem to work properly, I'm considering getting an electrical bike. Has anyone here had experience with an electrical bike and if so, any suggestions for model and where to purchase here in hogtown, Toronto?


Yes. I helped to buy an electric bike for a friend of mine last year in Toronto. It was shipped to Ottawa at extra charge of course.

The e-bike as it is referred to in Ontario, does not require a licence or insurance, only a helmet. It can be used on streets but not sidewalks as it can get up to speed up to 30kph. 

The model we chose was the Jenna by Daymak. it was around $1600 : $1199 plus 1 year warranty ($149) and delivery to Ottawa ($77).It has a speed throttle similar to a motorcycle, locking steering and comes with an anti-theft alarm and overnight charger. The pedals are necessary for regulations and
can assist in pedalling it home, but it takes a bit of effort to pedal it. The pedals cannot be removed
though due to current regulations.

There is no HST on e-bikes.

Dealer was : Bike and Forth 2810 Danforth Ave. 
around $1199 from what i remember.
http://www.daymak.com/pages/scooters/jena.php

E-bikes are similar to electric scooters. In traffic, you have to be aware of traffic situations and respond accordingly. Weaving around parked cars and drivers opening doors in front of you are the worst hazards. Some drivers are impatient and may pass you unexpectedly.

You should not just buy an e-bike and venture into traffic hoping for the best. Best to be aware of handling and braking situations/limitations with the e-bike and also get a rain suit,(like a two piece motorcycle kind) to keep in the seat compartment, in case of inclement weather).
It is strongly recommended to try the ebike first in a empty school parking lot and try some:

1: Figure Eights (left turn and then right turn (learn handling characteristics..it's a 65kg (143lbs)bike)
2. Emergency braking (use a couple of soup cans to indicate the rear bumper of the vehicle in front
of you. Acclerate to max speed and then apply brakes repeatedly until you can stop your-ebike
safely with some margin to spare. 

Here is a PDF on the Jenna that you may want to read first.
www.daymak.com/manuals/jena_manual.pdf

Bicycle safety and rules of the road.
www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/pdfs/cycling-skills.pdf


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## Lost in Space 2 (Jun 28, 2016)

I've been thinking of getting an e-bike as well, kind of lazy on the hills, if you do get one update us on how you like it


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

E-bikes should ride on the sidewalks. They can't keep up to traffic and cause dangerous situations when cars have to weave around them.

Cities pay a lot of money to widen roads for bike lanes, when it would be much cheaper and better to widen sidewalks on different routes.

We have bike lanes that cross over and back through busy car/truck/bus clogged traffic lanes.....accidents waiting to happen.

The arguments against riding on sidewalks are a joke. The law is that children under 10 can ride bicycles on sidewalks safely but adults can't ?

The law is all over the place. Have a broken pedal on your e-bike ? Now you are considered a motorcycle and subject to all kinds of charges.

I don't know about other Provinces, but in Ontario the laws are a mess.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> E-bikes should ride on the sidewalks. They can't keep up to traffic and cause dangerous situations when cars have to weave around them.


They are NOT supposed to be on sidewalks. If you hit a child, dog or a person (senior), be prepared to pay for any injury caused. Insurance is not compulsory on e-Bikes.

Ebikes can go up to 32Kmph on a full battery. That is well beyond the 3-5kmph walking speeds
of most people.
With confusion of which way the child. dog or senior will go, it will more than likely result in injury to someone if the wrong decision is made. 

E-bikes have to be in specified bike lanes or on the curb side lane, unless making left turns at intersections.
Traffic rules apply. if the e-bike rider makes a mistake that causes injury to themselves or others, it can be costly,
but that is no different than just riding an ordinary bicycle on the streets. 



> The arguments against riding on sidewalks are a joke. The law is that children under 10 can ride bicycles on sidewalks safely but adults can't ?


Children are not aware of traffic rules and can get injured very quickly on the street, so the sidewalk is the bestplace for them when they are weaving all over the place and not necessarily paying attention to what is before them.

Adults, OTOH need to be aware of traffic rules. A mistake on a 10-speed in traffic can be deadly.
A mistake on a e-bike going 30km can also cause serious injury. Common sense and awareness of what's around you keeps you safe.

On motorcycles, being faster vehicles, SIPDE applies. On e-bikes you it helps to scan 2-3 seconds in front of you and get the "Big Picture" and take evasive action (swerving or braking) to avoid injury to yourself and others.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

E-bikes on multi-use pathways are a problem for me. I ride a bike all spring/summer/fall, and most of the time on a pathway. E-bikes travel far too fast (~30KPH) and continually weave in and out in a dangerous dance with all the other users of pathways. The rules for using e-bikes on pathways are confusing to say the least. Read the rules below for Ottawa.

Rules for Electric Bikes (“E-Bikes”).

They're too fast for the pathways, too slow for the road, and not allowed on sidewalks. They're an accident waiting to happen. I've little use for them.

ltr


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> E-bikes on multi-use pathways are a problem for me. I ride a bike all spring/summer/fall, and most of the time on a pathway. E-bikes travel far too fast (~30KPH) and continually weave in and out in a dangerous dance with all the other users of pathways. The rules for using e-bikes on pathways are confusing to say the least. Read the rules below for Ottawa.
> 
> They're too fast for the pathways, too slow for the road, and not allowed on sidewalks. They're an accident waiting to happen. I've little use for them.


Like everything else on the road these days, people have to use these things sensibly.
The scooter style e-bike (above) is still allowed on NCC pathways, just like my 4 wheel electric scooter that I use. (I am disabled/wheelchair). 

The user has to have it under control at all times. It has 3 speed selected by switch, so you don't have to go at 30kph in a congested pathway area. 
My scooter can go up to 14kmph, but i don't go at that speed when I see people ahead, especially walking dogs on the NCC pathways/nature trails. Like you say, it's probably an accident waiting to
happen when people don't control their pets.

Using the e-bikes on the streets, well just like riding a bicycle on the street, you have to be observant at all times to avoid collisions with cars. 
People ride their bikes on city streets, not on highways or multi-lane thoroughfares where speeds are much higher.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Whoever designed the bike paths in our city must have been drunk. They cross busy traffic lanes at intersections and some just stop at bridges and force the bikes to veer back into the traffic lanes. A "little here......a little there" bike lanes cause more problems than they solve.

In Ontario, mobility scooters have few restrictions. The government advises people to ride them on sidewalks. 

No age restriction, registration, licence, insurance or helmet required.

This model has a 3 hp German engine, travels 16 kms an hour and looks more comfortable than an e-bike.

It also has a bad weather top........kind of cool looking 3 or 4 wheelers.

http://www.scootercity.ca/product/sample-product-2-2/


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Hey Carver........if I already have a DTC is a mobility scooter tax deductible ?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> Whoever designed the bike paths in our city must have been drunk. They cross busy traffic lanes at intersections and some just stop at bridges and force the bikes to veer back into the traffic lanes. A "little here......a little there" bike lanes cause more problems than they solve.
> 
> In Ontario, *mobility scooters have few restrictions*. The government advises people to ride them on sidewalks.
> 
> ...


I have a Pride 4 wheel similar that I bought used about 5 yrs ago. It's a 24volt system with 2 x 50ah AGM batteries.
With the large 10inch wheels it is good for rougher nature trails as well. Being classified as a mobilty scooter, I am permitted to use it on sidewalks, inside stores etc. it has an automatic electric brake
that applies as soon as you take your hand off the forward/reverse paddles. It also has an anti-rollback
automatic brake. Very safe on sidewalks or in dept stores. 

3Hp at 24volt is about 2200 watts.

The e-bikes, I believe are restricted to a 500watt motor in Ontario and are not supposed to be used
on sidewalks.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> Yes. I helped to buy an electric bike for a friend of mine last year in Toronto. It was shipped to Ottawa at extra charge of course. ... post #4.


 ... wow, thanks for all that information - lots to absorb there. Still researching on model and best price. Since I'm looking into a lighter weight version (eg. from post #2) - pedal (?) and fly :biggrin: instead of the scooter-type version, some of that information doesn't apply. Now I'm debating on a foldable or not - easier to port up and into the house ... choices, choices, choices. But it's still alot of good information there and for one ... I had no idea there's no HST on e-bikes. What purchase doesn't have some sort of "T" these days. I can't think of any ...


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> Hey Carver........if I already have a DTC is a mobility scooter tax deductible ?


There is NO HST on mobilty vehicles for disabled in Ontario.

The DTC is not necessary I believe, to buy one tax free as long as your doctor issues a prescription for one which is then submitted to CRA for the tax year.

It can be used just like a wheelchair to be submitted to CRA. 



> Scooter — the amount paid for a scooter that is used in place of a wheelchair.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/tax-time-medical-expenses-to-consider-1.1112685

Wheelchair (and scooter batteries) is used a mobilty aid, are also allowed under the current CRA medical expense rules,
but these items as replacements are NOT tax free.

Batteries on average, depending on use, have to be replaced about every two years, but it also depends on the longest distance you want to travel in one day before recharging. If you travel 10km or more
perday, every day for the spring/summer/fall, you may have to replace them more often.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... wow, thanks for all that information - lots to absorb there. Still researching on model and best price. Since I'm looking into a lighter weight version (eg. from post #2) - pedal (?) and fly
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## DealClaimer (Apr 1, 2016)

I have been wanting to get an e-bike but my partner thinks that this is not so safe after all. I have tried discussing how much of a convenience it would be to get one which I can use for work, ( I live in Langley by the way).


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

sags said:


> E-bikes should ride on the sidewalks ...
> The arguments against riding on sidewalks are a joke.
> The law is that children under 10 can ride bicycles on sidewalks safely but adults can't ?



Do you have a reference to the law that says it is legal for *anyone* to ride on the sidewalk?



> They don't understand that *their bicycle is a vehicle and a vehicle is designed to ride on the roadway*, he said.
> In fact, he said, many cyclists, including most under age 16, don't know the rules of the road as governed by the Ontario Highway Traffic Act and the Ottawa Traffic and Parking bylaw.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-sidewalk-cyclists-face-fines-1.955804




sags said:


> The law is all over the place ... I don't know about other Provinces, but in Ontario the laws are a mess.


I have yet to find a reference to the alleged exemption.

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/bicycle-safety.shtml
http://www.walkandrollpeel.ca/cycling/where-legal.htm


Cheers


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

You have to look under municipal bylaws for your community.

In your link, it says children under 10 should not ride on the road.

_Say "no" to under 10
Children under 10 years of age should not ride their bikes on the road. Most children at this age have not developed the necessary motor skills and judgment to ride safely in traffic without adult supervision._

_According to City of Mississauga and City of Brampton by-laws, bikes with wheels greater than 50 cm (20 inches) in diameter are not permitted on city sidewalks unless:
The sidewalk is part of a bicycle path, or the rider is directly crossing a sidewalk.
Most children's bikes have wheels small enough to be allowed to cycle on sidewalks.
These by-laws allow children to cycle on the sidewalk until they develop the skills to handle themselves safely in traffic.
_
http://www.walkandrollpeel.ca/cycling/where-legal.htm#sidewalk

In Toronto, their bylaw allows children 14 and under to ride on the sidewalk.

_Toronto City Council has adopted a staff report recommendation that Toronto's sidewalk cycling bylaw shall stipulate "no person age 14 and older may ride a bicycle on a sidewalk". The fine for an adult who rides a bicycle on a sidewalk shall be $60. The intent of this bylaw is to allow young children to cycle on the sidewalk while they learn to ride. This is a Toronto Municipal Code bylaw and so rules will vary in different communities across Ontario._

http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=2bfaa19cdcef7410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

Just yesterday I had to drive across town. I went up the busiest road in city.......2 lanes going each way and it was raining.

There was a long line of vehicles trying to get around a cyclist chugging up a steep hill. Cars weaving out into the other crowded lane to pass him then and back in again. There was nobody on the sidewalks on either side of the road. According to the MTO, drivers are allowed to cross a solid yellow line to weave around bicycles, but all the liability for an accident is on them. The fact there is an exemption to cross a solid line shows there is a problem with slow cyclists impeding traffic.

To combine bicycles with cars, trucks, and buses on busy roads is a very bad idea. The roads weren't designed for bicycle lanes.

Children can ride on sidewalks safely with pedestrians but adults can't manage it ? That makes no sense.

As far as I am concerned, paying a $40 - $60 bylaw fine would be preferable to being run over by a vehicle.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Riding on the sidewalk is actually more dangerous for cyclists because cars coming out don't expect fast-moving vehicles on the sidewalk. Little kids learning to ride don't move as fast as adult cyclists. Also, my brother was struck by a car while riding on the sidewalk when we were kids, so even for kids it's not necessarily ideal. Then you add in the danger to pedestrians from cyclists trying to weave around them or being taken by surprise when a pedestrian steps to the side right in front of them. 

The road is the safest and best place for cyclists. Ideally, a bike lane will make it easy to share the road between cars and cyclists, but if none is available, the cyclist has the right to use the traffic lane. I understand it is annoying for cars but it's the best option available.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The DIY e-bike..........

View attachment 14666


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Could a generator not be hooked up to an e-bike so it is constantly recharging the battery ?


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

yes - it's called a motorcycle


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> Y
> To combine bicycles with cars, trucks, and buses on busy roads is a very bad idea. The roads weren't designed for bicycle lanes.


Unless the city or municipality is setting aside bike lanes by painting them as such, like in many parts of Ottawa.
Children can ride on sidewalks safely with pedestrians but adults can't manage it ? That makes no sense.



> As far as I am concerned, paying a $40 - $60 bylaw fine would be preferable to being run over by a vehicle.


Well, you have a point there. Children are generally allowed because the child if under 12 or 14 doesn't always know the safety rules of the roads for bicycles..neither do most adults for that matter. 

The problem also lies with drivers who don't look in their mirrors before opening car doors, causing an accident for the unexpecting bicyclist and serious injury. 

Who is at fault in this case..the car driver or the bicyclist?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

none said:


> yes - it's called a motorcycle


Good one!:glee:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> Could a generator not be hooked up to an e-bike so it is constantly recharging the battery ?


I was looking into a silent generator for my scooter (24v x 50ah) batteries to charge while I drive it on the nature trails up to 30km each way, but so far unsuccessful unless I want to use small solar panel and the problem with those is that the charge rate over a 2hr excursion isn't enough to replace what charge is being used up by the motor which can be up to 50amps periodically starting up
or going up a hill. 

The wall mounted charge is good for 8amps and take a few hours to recharge a 75% depleted battery (about 6 hrs or so).

As yet, minature standalone generator that is silent and can fit onto the back of the e-bike is not available as yet. one that could run on alcohol would be best to recharge the batteries on the go, but I haven't seen one available yet.
The solar panel type wattage is insufficient to allow decent recharge rates and be portable at the same time and then there is the problem of rainy or cloudy days.

Carrying a second spare battery may be the only viable solution.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

carverman said:


> ... The problem also lies with drivers who don't look in their mirrors before opening car doors, causing an accident for the unexpecting bicyclist and serious injury.


Sometimes ... I have had cyclists in the middle of the road where there was no need to be there or swerving madly to race through slow moving traffic as if they were indestructible.


In some cases, it was similar to the pedestrian who avoids looking around while crossing when the cross walk signal was partially through a change or gone red.


Cheers


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> Sometimes ... I have had cyclists in the middle of the road where there was no need to be there or swerving madly to race through slow moving traffic as if they were indestructible.


Therein lies the problem with both sides of the coin. Cyclists do not have to take any training or safety lessons after buying a bike at CTC or any other store. Some don't even bother with a helmet since it is not compulsory, and they feel safe riding without one.

The driver's these days can be distracted by many things, not just texting. Some drivers are inattentive by nature and not always tuned in to look for a bicycle or even a pedestrian. Lots of collisions happen this way because the driver of the car "just didn't see him", and this is exacerbated during evenings or mornings with sunrise/sunset glare into the drivers face, 
or at night if the bicycle rider still happens to be out for some reason.

A bicycle is no match for a 3000kg car at speed and occassionally in my area I hear of fatalities with bicycle riders of being hit while bicycling on the shoulder of the highway (on the paved part of the shoulder) found in the ditch by a passerby. 

The car coming up didn't see the rider, or allow enough space on passing (or drunk)..the same issue as with motorists injuring or killing policemen stopped to talk to a car driver.

It's just the luck of the draw.



> In some cases, it was similar to the pedestrian who avoids looking around while crossing when the cross walk signal was partially through a change or gone red.


Not being attentive to their surroundings or looking into an iphone while walking across an intersection can get them into serious trouble. 

You can't fine people for being stupid.


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## Lost in Space 2 (Jun 28, 2016)

carverman said:


> Therein lies the problem with both sides of the coin. Cyclists do not have to take any training or safety lessons after buying a bike at CTC or any other store. Some don't even bother with a helmet since it is not compulsory, and they feel safe riding without one.
> 
> The driver's these days can be distracted by many things, not just texting. Some drivers are inattentive by nature and not always tuned in to look for a bicycle or even a pedestrian. Lots of collisions happen this way because the driver of the car "just didn't see him", and this is exacerbated during evenings or mornings with sunrise/sunset glare into the drivers face,
> or at night if the bicycle rider still happens to be out for some reason.
> ...


Waterloo region is spending something like a billion dollars on a LRT imagine if they spent that on bicycle infrastructure!!!! Specifically separate bike lanes, spce is certainly not an issue


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