# Anyone else hate the new $20 plastic bills?



## carverman

Got a bunch of $50 bills mid last year. Had to count them twice and try to wrinkle them a bit so they didn't stick together.
Now same with the $20 bills that the bank machines are starting to dispense.

They won't fold easily and that clear area looks a bit hoky. Now you need to be really careful when handing clerk or waiter a $20 because there
could be two twenties there. Once you lose sight of those bills, you are SOL!

Wonder what they were thinking at the mint? I'm sure that the Americans won't have anything to do with our money either.


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## KaeJS

I find myself recounting almost endlessly. 

Quite the annoyance.


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## jcgd

I can't iron them like 50 Cent. Makes me less gangster.


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## andrewf

I think that they were thinking they could reduce counterfeiting.


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## Nemo2

I find them to be singularly unappealing.


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## bgc_fan

I like them. They stick the odd time, but not enough that I am inconvenienced by it. Ever since Australia started using polymer bills, I thought Canada should have done the same. I prefer them to the monochromatic US bills that take more time to ensure that I don't accidentally give a dollar bill instead of a twenty or vice versa.


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## Cal

I never carry cash anymore. Debit or CC for everything. If you are cash only you don't get my business.


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## carverman

jcgd said:


> I can't iron them like 50 Cent. Makes me less gangster.


No I suppose you can't iron them, they would probably melt and stick to the iron...but you should still be able to launder them...:biggrin:

That shiny part with the hologram of the peace tower and portrait of the Queen is interesting.
What I don't get is the three sets of 6 dots which are the braile identification for the blind. 3X6 =18? no?

Then there is this controversy:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...oreign-maple-leaf-irks-botanists.html?cmp=rss


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## OptsyEagle

I find them very hard to reproduce on my printer, as well. Quite annoying. LOL.


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## KaeJS

andrewf said:


> I think that they were thinking they could reduce counterfeiting.


People still do this? How?



Cal said:


> I never carry cash anymore. Debit or CC for everything. If you are cash only you don't get my business.


You got that right...


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## jcgd

I know I shouldn't, but I love cash. When I can physically look or feel how much I have left it helps me control spending. I've been using mostly cash only for the last month or so to help curb spending to pay off my debt. It also helps curb the spending of the GF because there is simply no money in the account to spend so debit is out. And I've forbidden any non essential purchases on the visa. I still allow gas, groceries, denist bills, etc. Just nothing that are wants and not needs. They must be paid for in cash.


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## uptoolate

I don't like the feel of them and I especially don't like how slippery they are. I don't carry a wallet and these bills have a nasty way of slipping out of pockets. I'm betting that we'll be finding them here and there on the ground much more frequently than the old notes. I still feel very nostalgic for the 1954 series and the bird series.


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## jcgd

Well lucky you. I haven't found any yet. Fingers crossed.

So they are sticky to themselves and slippery to everything else then? I've only had a few. My GF is a teller, she said the $50 bills aren't so bad, but the $20s are a pain. Maybe they get easier to work with as they get older?


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## Beaver101

Can't stand the new $20 polymer bills - they look and feel flimsy cheap, like playmoney. And speaking of sticky-bills, - just so happened I gave an extra $20 to the cashier at a local store but luckily she recounted the wad and gave the extra back. Now need to keep an eye out for "slippery" bills too ...lol. 

Re those 1954 and bird series old notes - should you use one at the bank, don't be surprised a younger teller will look at you funny. :rolleyes-new:


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## Daniel A.

Can't stand them !!!!

Bad enough the mint makes coins out of cheap iron crap!!!!!!!
I metal detect as a hobby.

What has me is that I can go metal detect in the UK and find hammered silver or hammered gold yet the crap here is won't last ten years in the ground.


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## indexxx

KaeJS said:


> People still do this? How?


Huge underground problem- with the proliferation of incredibly accurate home printers and the ability to buy almost any kind of paper online, it's a massive issue and always has been. My restaurant got a counterfeit $20 just two weeks ago, and I've seen many, many counterfeit bills come through the various bars I've worked in over the years- although I personally have never accepted one. It's relatively easy to pass one in a bar- dark, hyper, loud environment with a stressed-out busy server; they simply include it in the middle of a few legit bills when paying the tab and the server doesn't notice until they've gone.


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## Jim9guitars

Hey, I have no problems with the new bills, in fact, if any of you are that bothered by them you could send them to me! Also, I saw a sign on a tip jar at a restaurant that said "If you fear change, leave it here".


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## carverman

jcgd said:


> Well lucky you. I haven't found any yet. Fingers crossed.
> 
> So they are sticky to themselves and slippery to everything else then? I've only had a few. My GF is a teller, she said the $50 bills aren't so bad, but the $20s are a pain. Maybe they get easier to work with as they get older?


Just curious..what if you roughened them up slightly..with very fine sandpaper..or fine steel wool? 
I guess there will be some invention coming along where you can store them and count them out as you need them. 
The ATMs don't seem to have a problem giving you the exact change, so there must be a way. I suppose you could cut strips of printer paper
and stick between each $20 bill if you go out with a wad of 5 to 10 twenties to be on the safe side.

At least this way, the paper inbetween them will keep them from sticking. Doesn't have to be the same size as the bills, just large enough to reduce
the stickiness between each bill.

Hmm..got me thinking..what about a bill "fold"..(that's a misnomer with the new bills since they don't fold) with a thin plastic divider between bills so you
can slip them into these compartments individually?

I'll try and roughen one and see what happens.. I'll report back with my findings.


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## Spidey

I think they're cool. (Perhaps I'm easily amazed.) However, like others I only carry a minimum of cash - usually $40 at the max. Everything goes on my rewards credit cards - even small purchases.


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## carverman

Ok, well here's a simple solution to those sticky $20 bills that the ATM dipenses.

Take each bill and *reverse it onto the next bill* so that the *clear window with the holographs do NOT match up.* 

Also try and get the braille indentations (rows of bumps) on the same sides of the bills you are stacking together. 

I tried it and it certainly helps them from sticking and at the same time as you pull the $20 bill out of your wallet/purse, you will see the mismatched clear patches with holograms more easily to see that you have two $20 bills possibly stuck together.
If you do this to the entire stack, it should minimize that possibility entirely. 

I would think that the solution would be in a darkened room, such as a restaurant or bar is to pay by credit card. 
No mistake then of giving the server two $20s (or more... stuck together by mistake), and trying to reclaim YOUR error in paying
the server later on, 
which of course, once it leaves your eyes...any extra bill in the payment becomes the property of others to pocket, 
and deny... that you paid two $20 by mistake for a meal that was only less than $20/$40/$60 or whatever the total price of the meal.


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## Beaver101

*carverman:*


> Ok, well here's a simple solution to those sticky $20 bills that the ATM dipenses.
> 
> Take each bill and *reverse it onto the next bill* so that the *clear window with the holographs do NOT match up.*
> 
> Also try and get the braille indentations (rows of bumps) on the same sides of the bills you are stacking together.


... great idea, I kind of thought about that too after my incident yesterday but also thought of folding each bill up, then put a clip/elastic around the bundle. Voila, you have a bundle of "individual" bills to account for.



> *Indexx:* My restaurant got a counterfeit $20 just two weeks ago, and I've seen many, many counterfeit bills come through the various bars I've worked in over the years-


 .. so what did you do with these counterfeits, absorb the loss or take to the bank to report them? I have had the unfortunate experience of receiving a $5 fake bill that looked and feeled so real (yes, a $5 bill) as change back and was told by the local bank that I was out of luck - they could do nothing for me. Now I would rather get loonies and twoonies back as change despite the weight.


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## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> *
> .. so what did you do with these counterfeits, absorb the loss or take to the bank to report them? I have had the unfortunate experience of receiving a $5 fake bill that looked and feeled so real (yes, a $5 bill) as change back and was told by the local bank that I was out of luck - they could do nothing for me. *


*

I guess, you didn't check the $5 bill for the standard security feature. 
With the value so low...nobody pays too much attention when they get handed a counterfeit $5 along with some change. 

I would think that the restaurant owner would be out of luck as well. The counterfeit would be confiscated and you don`t get
any credit for it.*


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## Beaver101

No, I obviously didn't because it was slipped in with some other bills ($10) when I got the change back. All I took note was I got the "correct" change back with a "blue ($5)" and "purple ($10)" pieces of paper money because who would have expected getting a fake, especially on 5 bucks? I only became aware of the "fake" when I tried to spend it a retailer and the cashier noticed it. Oh well, a lesson learned - get loonies and twoonies instead or until the counterfeiters come up with fake loonies ... lol. Hopefully the new polymer notes will counter the counterfeit ones. Side note: The Vending Machine industry are having headaches with these new notes I read somewhere.


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## OhGreatGuru

People hate change.


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## indexxx

Beaver101 said:


> *carverman:*... great idea, I kind of thought about that too after my incident yesterday but also thought of folding each bill up, then put a clip/elastic around the bundle. Voila, you have a bundle of "individual" bills to account for.
> 
> .. so what did you do with these counterfeits, absorb the loss or take to the bank to report them? I have had the unfortunate experience of receiving a $5 fake bill that looked and feeled so real (yes, a $5 bill) as change back and was told by the local bank that I was out of luck - they could do nothing for me. Now I would rather get loonies and twoonies back as change despite the weight.


Yes, it's our tough luck and we absorb the loss. I keep a small contingency fund aside for such eventualities. All that happens if you take it to the bank is they pass it along as evidence but of course you'd have to catch the actual person passing the bills to get any recompense.


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## carverman

indexxx said:


> *Yes, it's our tough luck and we absorb the loss*. I keep a small contingency fund aside for such eventualities. All that happens if you take it to the bank is they pass it along as evidence but of course you'd have to catch the actual person passing the bills to get any recompense.


it's the classic case of being screwed twice. Once by the perpetrator (which can also be another merchant, who may have detected that the bill was a fake and gives it to some unsuspecting customer as part of the change. Rarely do people receiving the change examine it first before pocketing it......
and the banks and gov't screwing you again for being the unlucky recipient of a fake bill.

You expect people to be honest in counting out change. While it is also possible that some people may not know they have a fake bill until the bank tells you, some do know and not wanting to take the loss pass it off quickly like a hot potato.

There just isn't any justice in this one!:rolleyes2:

Of course, tourists are a fair mark travelling in foreign countries. In 1986, I spent several weeks in Istanbul on a training mission (won't get into that) and on my off days would walk around by myself looking at the various tourist attractions there. Once I stopped to buy a souvenier and got handed back Turkish Lira notes as change for my American dollars.

Not being familiar with foreign notes, I pocketted the change that the market dealer handed me and went on my way. Later
on, I got into a taxi and handed the taxi driver one of the larger denominations, expecting some change back.
He looked at the note, and told me something in turkish...I sign languaged that I was a foreigner and didn't understand
Turkish..he managed to say "Money no good!." Not being able to inquire why my money was no good and wanted to get a ride
back to my apartment again, I handed him an American $10 or $20 bill (can't remember). He gave me the change in Turkish lira.

When I got back with my Canadian friends at work, who were also living in Istanbul, I was puzzked and inquired what was
wrong with these bills that I got handed by the market vendor. They examined them and laughed and told me I had been
suckered by receiving "old money" which was worthless. The rate of inflation back then was so high that the Turkish
gov't had to print "new money" to keep up with inflation. Anybody that was stuck with the old money, if they didn't
exhange it for the new money at time of issue, was stuck with it..or..they could pass it off on the unsuspecting tourists.

I lost between $20 and $30 US then and was afraid of taking any more Turkish notes from there on.


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## andrewf

No, that's still only getting screwed once. If the bank ate the counterfeit currency, the perpetrator would not have screwed the merchant. Like it or not, this is the only tenable option. If banks accepted counterfeit currency, merchants would be exceedingly lax in accepting them. The risk of loss is needed to keep them vigilant.


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## mrPPincer

Beaver101 said:


> *carverman:*... great idea, I kind of thought about that too after my incident yesterday but also thought of folding each bill up, then put a clip/elastic around the bundle. Voila, you have a bundle of "individual" bills to account for.


I find those thin black stretchy hair bands are perfect for keeping a bundle of cash folded in half in your pocket, especially with these slippery new bills.
A one dollar packet at the dollar store is enough to keep you in money clips for a lifetime


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## carverman

andrewf said:


> *No, that's still only getting screwed once. *If the bank ate the counterfeit currency, the perpetrator would not have screwed the merchant. Like it or not, this is the only tenable option. If banks accepted counterfeit currency, merchants would be exceedingly lax in accepting them. The risk of loss is needed to keep them vigilant.


Ok, maybe it's a contradiction in terms? 

The real criminal is the counterfeiter..right?

The criminal passes the counterfeit bill usually to a merchant to buy something. 
The merchant is "screwed or /out of luck" by accepting the counterfeit bill without scanning or checking each bill. That's the first time.
(Some stores have bill readers and will scan $50 or $100 bills first, but few scan $20, so the chance of a counterfeit $20 being passed until detected
by the bank , is high..with the old paper bills).
The merchant not wanting to get stuck with loss, just passes on the fake bill to another customer. That's getting screwed twice. 

If the merchant deposits the fake $20 bill, then you are right...only one person/business gets screwed by the counterfeit bill.
However, if the person/business passes on the fake bill out of the till without checking of course, then the next customer gets screwed by the fake bill..or even the next occurance of the fake bill being passed on again.

So this is interesting: The mint didn't print the fake $20 bill, so they want nothing to do with it. The banks being owned by the gov't detecting the bill
want nothing to do with it. The counterfeiter (if he doesn't get caught) gets $20 worth of value or goods for the fake bill.
So who says..crime (counterfeiting) doesn't pay?:biggrin:


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## carverman

mrPPincer said:


> *A one dollar packet at the dollar store is enough to keep you in money clips for a lifetime :*)


So maybe that's where these counterfeit bills originate? ..at the dollar store. 
Dollar stores don't want them either..since most items they sell are $1,$2 or $1.50.:biggrin:


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## rian

I have all kins of problems with them, hard to count as the bills stick to one another.


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## andrewf

If the merchant passes it on (wittingly or unwittingly), they are not screwed. It cost them nothing.


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## Beaver101

Why would a merchant want to pass them on "wittingly" and put their reputation at stake, eg. accused of laundering money? 

*Carverman:* .. the dollar store joke ... lol!


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## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> Why would a merchant want to pass them on "wittingly" and put their reputation at stake, eg. accused of laundering money?


No, they would not be laundering money if it was an "honest mistake"..get it? If you didn't know the $5, $10 or $20 was counterfeit, it could be classified as an "honest mistake"..otherwise, you would need to say to the customer.."hold the fort (sir/madam), let me take a few minutes to examine each bill you are passing to me to see if it's genuine"..In doing so, you hold up the line of customers waiting behind you, and if they pay cash..they hold up the line as well,not to mention the sense of distrust you would pass on to each customer. Ie: "well I'm not shopping there
anymore..they think I'm a crook and trying to pass them counterfeit money!" Some stores do have a bill checker for $50 or higher denomination
and you put up with those, because it's the only way the store will take larger bills. 
Nobody really pays attention when receiving or handing out change with small bills these days. 

Now, whether the merchant (cashier/bargirl/etc etc) knew about it, they couldn't care less if the money went in to the till. The fake money could be handed out during the the course of other transactions during the day. Only after the close of business for the day, where the cash is counted for deposit, would somone have a chance to examine each bill as the bills are stacked together based on denomination for the nightly deposit.

That's why it is always wise to pay by credit card, although there have been instances of CC number skimming machines as well. 
Let's say you happen to have a counterfeit bill in your possession..because it was passed on to you as change in the order
of doing legitimate business..imagine how uncomfortable YOU would feel, if some clerk said to you.."I think that is a counterfeit bill.
I will have to call the store manager and maybe the police as well. Now you feel like a "criminal" even though there has been
an honest mistake made when you got the bill..unless you were dealing with a counterfeiter directly. 



> *Carverman:* .. the dollar store joke ... lol!


Thought you might get a kick out of that one.:biggrin:


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## carverman

indexxx said:


> It's relatively easy to pass one in a bar- dark, hyper, loud environment with a stressed-out busy server; they simply include it in the middle of a few legit bills when paying the tab and the server doesn't notice until they've gone.


Exactly. Even if you were able to discover the fake bill *before the patron left the restaurant*, what do you do..if it's an "honest mistake" and the patron got it from someone else, who got it from someone else?

Even if it was done on purpose..how do you treat the situation? Call the cops and have the guy arrested and prosecuted for passing
counterfeit money? If it's just one bill, $20 or under, do you take a chance that it was ONLY an honest mistake? 
Maybe the patron will take it back, say they are sorry and give you another legitimate bill for it, so you would need to be sure first and then try to talk to them in your office or somewhere where the matter can be discussed out of public earshot...I don't know.


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## Beaver101

> Let's say you happen to have a counterfeit bill in your possession..because it was passed on to you as change in the order of doing legitimate business..imagine how uncomfortable YOU would feel, if some clerk said to you.."I think that is a counterfeit bill. I will have to call the store manager and maybe the police as well. Now you feel like a "criminal" even though there has been an honest mistake made when you got the bill..unless you were dealing with a counterfeiter directly.


 ... in my case, that's exactly how I felt - first felt embarassed, second, felt like a criminal. I was fortunate the store didn't call the cops (not sure if it worth their while to hold the line for 5 measly bucks) but even they did, I really didn't know (true honest mistake) and there was the possibility that I got the bill from that store (high volume supermarket of which I shop from just every weekend) anyways! And that's what I told the cashier - she just told me to give her a "legit" bill and take the fake one back and get lost. Now I'm wary about going back to that store -so there is a loss of business for them (consumer and merchant both screwed). I burned the damned "fake" bill - only time I got the chance to "burn" money ...lol!


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## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> I burned the damned "fake" bill - only time I got the chance to "burn" money ...lol!


:encouragement:

Probably just as well. If you had gone to a bank or the police, there may been a few questions and for $5 it wasn't worth your
time. If that's the worst incident of being an innocent victim in your life, count yourself very lucky. Lots of people get scammed
or get duped for a lot more. 

I've had my wallet stolen with a few $$ bills and CC as well as driver's licence and other identification
from a change locker at a municipal swimming pool a few years ago. The perp used a large screwdriver to break the combination lock.

I was surprised and shocked not only because someone could actually do it and get away with it..(no survellience cameras allowed
in a change room), but it was a lot of work to replace all my credentials. To make matters worse, and my spare house and vehicle key
was in my wallet, so not only did the thief have my name, address and credit cards but he also had a key to my place and vehicle.
I had to install an car alarm in my vehicle after that. 

Since then, I never have bought another combination lock for pool change lockers and I never leave my wallet or watch inside the
change room lockers. I use the small wallet lockers at pool side.


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## KaeJS

indexxx said:


> Huge underground problem- with the proliferation of incredibly accurate home printers and the ability to buy almost any kind of paper online, it's a massive issue and always has been. My restaurant got a counterfeit $20 just two weeks ago, and I've seen many, many counterfeit bills come through the various bars I've worked in over the years- although I personally have never accepted one. It's relatively easy to pass one in a bar- dark, hyper, loud environment with a stressed-out busy server; they simply include it in the middle of a few legit bills when paying the tab and the server doesn't notice until they've gone.


Wow. That's quite interesting.

I never knew it was such a big deal. I mean, I've never gotten a fake bill - so, I just assumed it was a non-issue.

I can see how handing it over at a bar or nightclub/taxi driver or whatever would be easy. Very interesting.

I wonder what the return would be on counterfeit money. Not only that, but how would anyone prove you made one? If you slipped a bill to someone, could you not just say the cashier at the corner store must have slipped it to you? or what about the cute girl at the grocery store? Maybe she slipped it to you when the two of you were flirting?


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## carverman

KaeJS said:


> Wow. If you slipped a bill to someone, *could you not just say* the cashier at the corner store must have slipped it to you? or *what about the cute girl at the grocery store*? *Maybe she slipped it to you when the two of you were flirting?*


Hmm..interesting KaeJs..I guess being a single male, you still have a roving eye for flirting. 
So in your case, maybe a waitress or cute cashier with ample cleavage on display could distract you enough to slip a counterfeit $20 into your change?:biggrin:


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## KaeJS

^ Not a chance.

Money comes first. :biggrin:


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## Beaver101

carverman said:


> :encouragement:
> 
> Probably just as well. If you had gone to a bank or the police, there may been a few questions and for $5 it wasn't worth your
> time. If that's the worst incident of being an innocent victim in your life, count yourself very lucky. Lots of people get scammed
> or get duped for a lot more.
> 
> I've had my wallet stolen with a few $$ bills and CC as well as driver's licence and other identification
> from a change locker at a municipal swimming pool a few years ago. The perp used a large screwdriver to break the combination lock.
> 
> I was surprised and shocked not only because someone could actually do it and get away with it..(no survellience cameras allowed
> in a change room), but it was a lot of work to replace all my credentials. To make matters worse, and my spare house and vehicle key
> was in my wallet, so not only did the thief have my name, address and credit cards but he also had a key to my place and vehicle.
> I had to install an car alarm in my vehicle after that.
> 
> Since then, I never have bought another combination lock for pool change lockers and I never leave my wallet or watch inside the
> change room lockers. I use the small wallet lockers at pool side.


 ... in my case, I didn't take the bill to the bank. I just went to the bank to enquire about what a consumer is to do in the event they receive a fake bill? Would the bank take it back, check into it, or maybe reimburse it? First, they responded "why are you asking?" looking at you with suspicions...then they told me "no, the bank doesn't not reimburse you for a fake bill". You go report it to the police plus you take the loss, essentially you do their work and you're on your own. 

Re your stolen wallet with IDs, house keys, ...man, that must have been a nightmare ... so sorry to hear about that. If there is any good out of that experience, it would been that it has heightened your awareness of identity fraud and making yourself a hard target for thieves next time (eg. securing your belongings, home, etc.). I also learned my lesson early in life when I had my wallet stolen in high school - in that case, it was my own fault for leaving it in the classroom portable to celebrate the last day of school elsewhere inside the school. I had my most prized fountain pen stolen (given to me by my favourite uncle) along with my lunch money, transit tickets, library card, school ID, etc. (but nothing as major as CC (didn't have one) or other IDs) and ever since I have been vigilant about looking after my stuff wherever I go.


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## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... You go report it to the police plus you take the loss, essentially you do their work and you're on your own.


Yes, being in possession of a single counterfeit bill means your were unlucky and have to take the loss. Whether you can be smarter next time is also
hard to determine. Certainly, one would be on their guard for a little while and accept each bill (back in change) with suspicion. Even if you report it
to the cops and they take it and give you a report..they do nothing about it.



> Re your stolen wallet with IDs, house keys, ...man, that must have been a nightmare ...


Yes, it was. Cost me money to replace my licence ($10), ownership ($10) from the MOT too.
Apparently the gov't doesn't sympathesize with you when you have a robbery of your purse or wallet. 

It takes a lot of phone calls to cancel cards. notify gov't agencies of missing id cards (OHIP, etc)and running around to the
various gov't agencies in Ontario to replace stolen id cards. For about a year, I was afraid of leaving home and almost installed a securitiy alarm service, in case the thieves came around to see what else they could steal. 

My fault for not being more cautious with securing my wallet, but I never dreamed that someone could actually break the combination lock. 
These were predators that hung around the change rooms and comprimised the locks with a 8 inch screwdriver or small tool to snap the lock.

Once the lock was snapped, it didn't work again, even if you spun the numbers and snapped it shut.
It was a hard lesson..but I recovered from it after a year or so.

I reported the theft to the municipal pool and filled out a theft report. They told me that they really couldn't do anything because they were not allowed to place security cameras in change rooms. 
I also called the cops and got a police report as well. Cops did nothing but the police report # was handy for phoning
my bank as I had bank access cards and I had to cancel those as well and get new ones re-issued, just in case.


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## indexxx

carverman said:


> Ok, maybe it's a contradiction in terms?
> 
> The real criminal is the counterfeiter..right?
> 
> The criminal passes the counterfeit bill usually to a merchant to buy something.
> The merchant is "screwed or /out of luck" by accepting the counterfeit bill without scanning or checking each bill. That's the first time.
> (Some stores have bill readers and will scan $50 or $100 bills first, but few scan $20, so the chance of a counterfeit $20 being passed until detected
> by the bank , is high..with the old paper bills).
> The merchant not wanting to get stuck with loss, just passes on the fake bill to another customer. That's getting screwed twice.
> 
> If the merchant deposits the fake $20 bill, then you are right...only one person/business gets screwed by the counterfeit bill.
> However, if the person/business passes on the fake bill out of the till without checking of course, then the next customer gets screwed by the fake bill..or even the next occurance of the fake bill being passed on again.
> 
> So this is interesting: The mint didn't print the fake $20 bill, so they want nothing to do with it. The banks being owned by the gov't detecting the bill
> want nothing to do with it. The counterfeiter (if he doesn't get caught) gets $20 worth of value or goods for the fake bill.
> So who says..crime (counterfeiting) doesn't pay?:biggrin:


As a merchant, I am required to call the police if I suspect a counterfeit bill. Doesn't do much good when the passer bolts on you- how many people are going to stand there and wait while you call Five-0 on them? The only thing is if you have security, you can hold the person until the fuzz arrives.


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## Beaver101

indexxx said:


> As a merchant, I am required to call the police if I suspect a counterfeit bill. ... The only thing is if you have security, you can hold the person until the *fuzz* arrives.


 .. lol ... that's a new word (for me).



> *Carverman: *My fault for not being more cautious with securing my wallet, but I never dreamed that someone could actually break the combination lock.


 ... not your fault in your case ... like you said, who would have dreamed or expected this? 



> I reported the theft to the municipal pool and filled out a theft report. *They told me that they really couldn't do anything *because they were not allowed to place security cameras in change rooms.


 ... bogey boo that they couldn't do anything ... they could have put up a sign to "warn" people to secure their belongings (even there're lockers) or there is a high theft rate since this is a "public" facility that they're responsible for. How many more victims do they want?


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## Toronto.gal

carverman said:


> Once I stopped to buy a souvenier and got handed back Turkish Lira notes as change for my American dollars.....suckered by receiving "old money" which was worthless.


LOL, so you were a millionaire in the mid 80's. 

*Old Turkish Lira: *









*New Turkish Lira:*









Indeed inflation totally ravaged the old TL, but next time you go, make sure you get the yeni [new] lira.


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> .. lol ... that's a new word (for me).
> 
> 
> ... bogey boo that they couldn't do anything ... they could have put up a sign to "warn" people to secure their belongings (even there're lockers) or there is a high theft rate since this is a "public" facility that they're responsible for. How many more victims do they want?


Well there WAS a sign posted above the change rooms warning of possible theft (ring) going on. 
I was too naive/stupid to follow it. I should have left my wallet in my vehicle, or at the pool wallet lockers provided poolside..
but I didn't and it cost me big time! 
I never suspected that the lock itself would be jimmied..but that was my own fault for setting myself up..what can I say more.


----------



## carverman

Toronto.gal said:


> LOL, so you were a millionaire in the mid 80's.
> 
> 
> Indeed inflation totally ravaged the old TL, but next time you go, make sure you get the yeni [new] lira.


Yes, technically for about 2 months, I guess I was a millionaire in Turkish terms. 

I was given a weekly spending stipend by Nortel's subsidiary in Umranyie (suburb of Istanbul) during my technical instructor stint for 2 months. 
Conditions were deplorable as far as the classroom.,..no heat and it was winter! I received about 1 million new turkish lira back then for my food,
taxis and miscellaneous spending at the Turkish bazaar about every 2 weeks. 
I used some of it which I saved up by riding with friends into work and bought a leather coat, jacket and some silver rings..and some other souvenirs. 

The daily/weekly stipend was not really intended for such frivoulous spending, but nobody there (my bosses at work), asked for receipts on how the money was spent, so I skimped on food to save the TL (Turkish Lira) for spending money for booze and items at the Turkish bazaar. 

To save up all that spending money, I ate at the Netas cafeteria instead, which was another experience in itself..:rolleyes2:
they served mystery meat (goat?) stew..not even the resident Turkish cat in the cafeteria would touch that! 

Then there was this huge snowstorm in March (1986) the most snow in over 80 years...a franken snowstorm for them.:biggrin:
The entire city was crippled for about 5 -7 days. Since no public buses or private taxis could navigate 3 foot deep snow banks on the streets, we were
stuck in our apts and we drank (wine/beer and spirits) and played poker almost every day. We used our stipend Turkish lira for poker, since it wasn't
really costing us anything out of pocket. I even burned a 5 TL note....that was less than 5 cents back then, and they still printed it on paper..imagine!
I forget what I did with the obsolete TL, since I didn't want to take it back and have to declare it..since it was worthless at that point. 

BTW, It is illegal to burn currency in Turkey apparently, and my co-workers kidded me that I would go to jail if the Turkish authorities found out what I had
done. :biggrin:


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Well there WAS a sign posted above the change rooms warning of possible theft (ring) going on.
> *I was too naive/stupid to follow it.* I should have left my wallet in my vehicle, or at the pool wallet lockers provided poolside..
> but I didn't and it cost me big time!
> I never suspected that the lock itself would be jimmied..but that was my own fault for setting myself up..what can I say more.


 ... I think we all start out as that ... lesson learned and we get smarter! :encouragement: :chuncky:

Hmmm ... your stint in Turkey sounds interesting with revelations ... :biggrin:


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... I think we all start out as that ... lesson learned and we get smarter!


Yes, from that day forward, I never leave my wallet, watch or keys in the pool change room and I have this BIG Honking padlock that you would need
to use a cutting torch on. Overcompensation...maybe..but as they say..."fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice..shame on me!"




> Hmmm ... your stint in Turkey sounds interesting with revelations ... :biggrin:


Yes it was a trip of a lifetime as they say and all paid for by Nortel. I even cashed in my business class ticket for two economy tickets so that my ex (wife) could join me in Istanbul. Toured all the touresti spots in Istanbul..including Aya Sofia, the Blue Mosque (well outside anyway), the Bazaar, and other tours of the area.

Then I took 2 weeks vacation in between and we flew from Istanbul to Rome, (Coliseum/Trevi Fountain), then EuroRail to Florence, and Venice.
Then all the way by EuroRail pass to Luxembourg, where my old friend took us on a tour of Germany alone the Rhine. Toured some old German castles. Then by train back to Holland and spent a few days on a floating boat motel in Amsterdam. 

Ex flew back to Canada and I flew back to Turkey to continue with my training.

I wanted to take a tour to Ephesus, ( where Mary mother of Jesus lived out her last days), but the big snow storm in March put a stopper on that.:dejection:
That would also have been a trip of a life time, since there were other tourist sites along the Turkish (Greek?) coast that I wanted to see as well.



> A legend, which was first mentioned by Epiphanius of Salamis in the 4th century AD, purported that Mary may have spent the last years of her life in Ephesus. The Ephesians derived the argument from John's presence in the city, and Jesus’ instructions to John to take care of Mary after his death.


I never will have that chance again. Of course when I mentioned to my Nortel co-workers about the snow storm scuttling my plans to see all the old Greek
ruins there..they responded jokingly 'Why did you want to travel all the way there? This whole place (meaning the city of Istanbul) is in "ruins". :biggrin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephesus


----------



## lonewolf

carverman

I really like your ideas to help stop the bills from sticking togeather. Are you a skier ?


----------



## carverman

lonewolf said:


> carverman
> 
> Are you a skier ?


Not anymore..I used to be about 8 yrs ago..now I'm a "walker". :biggrin:


----------



## mark.goldmanning

*Absolutely hate them*

I haven't read the other 6 pages, so I don't know about the others experiences!

But I absolutely hate them!

I had around 20 sitting in my dashboard in my car, while I was at work.
It got to around 20 degrees Celsius, and BAM when I returned they were stuck to each other!

Luckily the bank said they had seen this before and replaced them.


Mark


----------



## carverman

mark.goldmanning said:


> I had around 20 sitting in my dashboard in my car, while I was at work.
> It got to around 20 degrees Celsius, and BAM when I returned they were stuck to each other!
> 
> Luckily the bank said they had seen this before and replaced them.
> 
> 
> Mark


You hate them so much you left 20 (20x20) = $400 in the dashboard of your car?
You are very lucky that the neither the windshield nor driver's window was smashed to relieve you of them.

I've heard of rumours of them melting in the hot sun and here is proof that they WILL melt and stick together.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...100-bills-melting-heat-reports-192741119.html

So the Mint/BOC is asking us to:

1. do not keep them near a heater of any kind
2. no displaying them in dashboards of cars or inside cars in the hot summer sun
3. no taking them to a hot beach ..so that you can buy a cool drink at the kiosk
4. no dropping leaving them in pockets of clothes running through the dryer after the wash
5. no leaving wallets in toaster ovens
6. and please..no folding or defacing them..thankyou! 

Remember dear citizens, keep your new polymer money in a cool dark airconditioned place..
like bank vaults where the banks can make a profit from these bills or bars etc..:biggrin:



> Nicolas Billard's son put eight of the new $100 bills - his Christmas bonus - into a chocolate tin behind a couch near a heater. When he went to retrieve them to deposit in the bank, they'd shriveled.


"


> When the teller counted the money out, right away (I) noticed that this one had a crack or something where it was folded," Shepard told CTV News.
> When the teller handed him the money, two of the plastic $100s with cracks in them ripped even more. So Shepard decided to conduct his own little stress test.
> He placed one of the damaged bills under a can of pop. When he pulled on the other end of the bill, it ripped in half.
> "It's similar to thin tin foil or plastic food wrap," he said. "You pull on it but as soon as it's got a mark or tear on it, it just peels apart."


----------



## OhGreatGuru

OTOH, I wonder how many of the old paper bills got destroyed in the laundry every year?


----------



## mark.goldmanning

carverman said:


> You hate them so much you left 20 (20x20) = $400 in the dashboard of your car?
> You are very lucky that the neither the windshield nor driver's window was smashed to relieve you of them.


LOL yeah I guess it was a little foolish, but I though might as well as my $500 GPS was there too. :tongue-new:


----------



## My Own Advisor

The most I carry in my wallet is about $20 or $30. Everything goes on CC.


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## james4beach

I hope the new Canadian polymer notes are as good as the Australian ones, but I suspect they aren't up to that standard. Those Aussie notes can really take abuse (and water, and heat)... and they don't stick together either. When the Canadian ones came out I was excited because I had been so impressed with the Australian ones.

So far I haven't had a problem with the Canadian polymer 20s, but these reports about melting worry me.

Easy solution, if you need to keep it in a cool place... load up your bank safe deposit box with them. It's not like the cash would earn you any interest at the bank anyway  Oh man, the banks really hate people hoarding cash in the boxes.


----------



## lonewolf

James4beach

It is against the law to take money out of circulation. Keeping money inside a safety deposit box is not safe because it is against the law. Start getting a few runs on the banks & it will be interesting if the goverment steps up to the plate & starts confiscating.


----------



## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> I hope the new Canadian polymer notes are as good as the Australian ones, but I suspect they aren't up to that standard. Those Aussie notes can really take abuse (and water, and heat)... and they don't stick together either. When the Canadian ones came out I was excited because I had been so impressed with the Australian ones.
> 
> So far I haven't had a problem with the Canadian polymer 20s, but these reports about melting worry me.
> 
> Easy solution, if you need to keep it in a cool place... load up your bank safe deposit box with them. It's not like the cash would earn you any interest at the bank anyway  Oh man, the banks really hate people hoarding cash in the boxes.


The funny thing is that they are the same polymer material which makes this all the more strange. It may be the actual bill making process that is at fault.


----------



## carverman

lonewolf said:


> James4beach
> 
> It is against the law to take money out of circulation. Keeping money inside a safety deposit box is not safe because it is against the law. *Start getting a few runs on the banks & it will be interesting if the goverment steps up to the plate & starts confiscating*.


I hope you were just joking there.
So all the little children out there are deemed to be criminals, keeping pennies, nickels, dimes, quarters, loonies, twonies and maybe "paper money" in their piggy banks?

AFAIC ...If I get the money legally by working for it, or any other legal means and decide to stick it in a place for safekeeping in my house or
even in a safety deposit drawer in a bank..it is nobody's business but my own. The gov't can run their presses overtime and print more plastic money to
make up for the money that is not in circulation presently, 

So are you saying that Canada is becoming a police state? 
Do I expect the ARCYMP to kick down my door in the middle of the night because I am "hoarding" some money in my
house in a piggy bank or in a shoe box under my bed? Give me a break!:rolleyes2:


----------



## lonewolf

carverman

No joke Prechtor (an american) warned his subscribers a while back not to keep any money in safety deposit boxes. I wanted to see if this applied in Canada. A few years ago I went to a bank & asked if I could use a safety deposit box to store cash in. The teller told me I could & that older people did it alot. I asked her if she was sure about it because I herd it was against the law. She asked the other tellers none of them knew she went to the back to find out 10 minutes or so latter she comes out & tells me that it is against the law to keep money in the safety deposit box but also says it would most likely be okay because a lot of people were doing it.


----------



## carverman

lonewolf said:


> carverman
> 
> she comes out & tells me that it is against the law to keep money in the safety deposit box but also says it would most likely be okay because a lot of people were doing it.


Ok, so somewhere there is a law on the books that it is illegal to hoard cash in a safety deposit box . If the gov't (who..the ARCMP?) ever find out, they will force you to
open the safety deposit box and confiscate your money in there..hmmm.. definitely sounds like Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia to me if that should ever happen.

Besides how do they get around from the laws for theft? Especially inside a bank...where any kind of theft is punishable by law. Ridiculous..don't you think? 

The gov't "steals" enough of our money by taxation already...do they need to raid our safety deposit boxes too?

However, the saving grace with this law is that most Canadians are so in debt these days that they don't own any spare cash and can't afford safety deposit boxes
to put the cash in.


----------



## andrewf

I've never heard of a law against hoarding cash. Has anyone even verified that such a law exists? Keep in mind that there is a lot of BS on the internet, especially in the gold hoarder/survivalist community.


----------



## carverman

andrewf said:


> I've never heard of a law against hoarding cash. Has anyone even verified that such a law exists? Keep in mind that there is a lot of BS on the internet, especially in the gold hoarder/survivalist community.


I've never heard of it either..not to say that this kind of stupid law exists somewhere on the books. I always have some cash hidden in my home for situations where I need to pay for something or service by cash and can't use a CC. 
To me it's a system of convenience, as I don't need to go to a bank machine each time and withdraw $60-$100 each time. 

If I got a large sum of money in bills, more than likely I would deposit it since I don't have a bank vault safety deposit box right
now. If I did, I would only keep documents that were necessary to be kept there in case of fire. 

I wouldn't keep cash in a safety deposit box, because it is very inconvenient. You have to access during banking hours only...so it's got nothing to do with keeping the cash money out of circulation. Very few people would do this anyway. 

So besides this..what other definition of hoarding is there?
Maybe keeping cash stuffed in a mattress or shoe box..ok...I suppose if you don't trust banks..but then again... if there is a fire or theft..it's your loss!


----------



## Beaver101

Law or no law -serioulsy who the heck wants to hoard these new polymer notes of ours? They stick, they melt, they feel cheap, they sucks. I couldn't wait to get rid of mines once I got a handful of them (all the more reason to "spend" now :biggrin. I would rather hoard (re-read: add to my collection) the old bills instead. :biggrin:

Btw, there is a law "according to the TTC" that you cannot give more than 25 loonies as payment for any purchases (and not that I have ever used anything remotely close to that many loonies as payment.) Ever heard of this ridiculous law (or is there really one)?

*Update:* this one should probably go under the Penny topic thread but I'm too lazy to look for it tonight - tomorrow is the last day the Mint will stop producing the penny - and merchants (McDonald's for sure) will start rounding up or down to the next 5c.


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> *- tomorrow is the last day the Mint will stop producing the penny - and merchants (McDonald's for sure) will start rounding up or down to the next 5c.*


*

Correction Beav. Feb 4 is the last day the mint distributes pennies to the banking institutions. They stopped minting pennies last year to make room for those polymer notes.

Pennies are still legal tender for many years to come. The only time rounding off to either the "nearest nickel value" up or down is when the pennies are still used to pay for goods.

The gov't has given some guidelines to merchants such as if the sale amount is 97c then round off to 1.00, 
If the sale value is 91 to 92 cents then round off to .90c. 

While this makes sense as far as being fair and not ripping off the consumer, it's just too complicated for cashiers to think about that when handing back change to the consumer,not to mention that 2 or 3 pennies over the course of the years CASH transactions can result in a significant loss for some businesses, so more than likely the "rounding off" price adjustments will be to the next highest nickel value as a rule. 

Electronic transactions and POS (point of sale) amounts will remain the same as they are now. If you buy $20.01 worth of gas at the pump and pay by CC or DB card, the 1 cent is still charged as it is now.*


----------



## andrewf

Registers will tell cashiers exactly what to do. They punch in the amount received from the customer, it says how much change to give.


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Correction Beav. Feb 4 is the last day the mint distributes pennies to the banking institutions. They stopped minting pennies last year to make room for those polymer notes.
> 
> Pennies are still legal tender for many years to come. The only time rounding off to either the "nearest nickel value" *up or down *is when the pennies are still used to pay for goods.
> 
> The gov't has given some guidelines to merchants such as if the sale amount is 97c then round off to 1.00,
> If the sale value is 91 to 92 cents then round off to .90c.
> 
> While this makes sense as far as being fair and not ripping off the consumer, it's just too complicated for cashiers to think about that when handing back change to the consumer,not to mention that 2 or 3 pennies over the course of the years CASH transactions can result in a significant loss for some businesses, so more than likely the "rounding off" price adjustments will be to the next highest nickel value as a rule.
> 
> Electronic transactions and POS (point of sale) amounts will remain the same as they are now. If you buy $20.01 worth of gas at the pump and pay by CC or DB card, the 1 cent is still charged as it is now.


 .. got it, thanks for the correction Carverman. 

Going to be fun initially for the both consumers and merchants http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...ust-to-life-without-the-penny/article8155151/ ...


----------



## lonewolf

Carverman

Just like the law for speeding is not enforced if it is only broken by a small amount i.e., 1 or 2 KMs over the speed limit. Perhaps they treat the safety deposit boxes the same way. If someone has a few billion in the boxes they might be more inclined to enforce it ?

The only reason I would ever keep money in a safety deposit box is in case of a banking failure. Perhaps the law wont be enforced if & when a banking failure occures & it will have been a wise move by some but it would be a mistake to think that that money is 100% safe. During a banking failure I kinda think would be the precise time it is enforced.


In a way I kinda wish they would get rid of all physical money. The reason being not everyone pays thier share of taxes when physical money exsists i.e., contractors gives discount for cash deals so they dont pay as much income tax & the buyer pays no HST. It would not surprise if in the future if physical money becomes illegal. I think digital money bitcoin or something similar will be the money of the future.


----------



## carverman

lonewolf said:


> The only reason I would ever keep money in a safety deposit box is in case of a banking failure. Perhaps the law wont be enforced if & when a banking failure occures & it will have been a wise move by some but it would be a mistake to think that that money is 100% safe. *During a banking failure I kinda think would be the precise time it is enforced.*


When in Canada has there ever been a banking failure of such magnitude that the gov't/RCMP would be examining all the safety deposit boxes of Canadians?
I believe if that ever happened, it would be a landmark case and the gov't would lose. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms applies.
If I earned or received the money legally and paid my income taxes on it, I have the FREEDOM to stuff it into a safety deposit box, or mattress, or shoebox or a hole in the wall.


----------



## Beaver101

lonewolf said:


> .... * The only reason I would ever keep money in a safety deposit box is in case of a banking failure.* Perhaps the law wont be enforced if & when a banking failure occures & it will have been a wise move by some but it would be a mistake to think that that money is 100% safe. During a banking failure I kinda think would be the precise time it is enforced.


 ... the safety deposit box would be the last place I would keep my money in, in the event of a bank failure. Can you get the money out faster than the failure process? Besides, safety deposit boxes are not exactly that "safe" with an inside job.


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... the safety deposit box would be the last place I would keep my money in, in the event of a bank failure. Can you get the money out faster than the failure process? Besides, safety deposit boxes are not exactly that "safe" with an inside job.


Yes, you are correct there. We all remember seeing that scene in It's a wonderful life"..where all the clients pound on George's bank door..demanding their money, when the evil Mr. Potter (moneylender) forces his bank to become insolvent. 

If a bank ever goes bankrupt, they would lock the doors and turn off any electronic access to your money, online and ATM...so in that case the little known law about hoarding cash becomes a moot point anyway..when you are financially bankrupt from the actions of the bank.

Scary scenario..but I don't think we have anything to worry about there..in Canada there is the CDIC deposit insurance to protect at least $100K of your money..provided of course they don't go bankrupt as well.


----------



## kcowan

Of course, like any other insurance company, there is a period of due diligence by the insurer to adjudicate claims. So you better have some money stashed under the mattress to keep you going for a few months. In our case, it is a Mexican bank account.


----------



## Nemo2

kcowan said:


> it is a Mexican bank account.


Is that like a Chinese Fire Drill? :wink:

(I imagine that if a large Canadian bank goes under, its Mexican counterpart might already be El Muerto?)


----------



## carverman

Nemo2 said:


> (I imagine that if a large Canadian bank goes under, its Mexican counterpart might already be El Muerto?)


There was only one case of a bank failure in Canada in recent times. The Western Bank in Alberta going under in 1967. 
Canadian banks are better managed and with the CDIC, the chance of your life savings as deposits being wiped out is virtually nil.


----------



## james4beach

lonewolf said:


> It is against the law to take money out of circulation. Keeping money inside a safety deposit box is not safe because it is against the law. Start getting a few runs on the banks & it will be interesting if the goverment steps up to the plate & starts confiscating.


lol! OK, so is granny's shoe box full of cash at home also illegal? How about the piggy banks (heaven forbid anyone hoards cash). Maybe the cash in my wallet is also illegal if I don't spend it fast enough?

Besides, I'm not taking money out of circulation. I'm just keeping it more accessible to myself. I wouldn't have to put money in a safe deposit box if Scotiabank was actually capable of producing the cash I demand for withdrawal. Ever tried walking up to a teller and withdrawing $5,000 ? Try it some day. Hell, try withdrawing $10,000 and don't be surprised if the police show up. You would think a crime is being committed.

When I go to my home branch and ask to withdraw as little as $2,000 - it's an ordeal. Identification, second identification. A few questions about my recent transaction history. Then they check in the back and say, I'm sorry we don't have that much cash available. Could you please call ahead next time you want to withdraw?

That's why I keep some cash in my box.

And obviously you don't tell the bank you're keeping cash in the safe deposit box. It's none of their business. And if it really is illegal to do? Then I'll buy a safe and install it at home. Either way, you can't trust a Canadian bank to produce any meaningful amount of cash upon request.


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> Btw, there is a law "according to the TTC" that you cannot give more than 25 loonies as payment for any purchases (and not that I have ever used anything remotely close to that many loonies as payment.) Ever heard of this ridiculous law (or is there really one)?
> 
> 5c.


Yes there is one. I can't find it but I did work in retail before and hat was what we were told on more Han one place. Also, it is not just loonies, it is loose coins. A retailer does not have to accept more than 25 loose coins in one transaction. 

However, if they are rolled, they are supposed to accept them. I remember when I was in dispute with a bus rental company, and they were being jerks, ended up paying my full fine ($300+). In mostly pennies. Was told that they wouldn't accept it, but because it was rolled they had too. It was really heavy. I also made sure that the last 25 coins were loose. I did have some print out to show them the law because I knew they would fight it.


----------



## carverman

james4beach said:


> Either way, you can't trust a Canadian bank to produce any meaningful amount of cash upon request.


I have noticed that on occassion in the local branch I deal with as well. Tried to get a few $100 bills once, to avoid the big wad of $20 bills dispensed from the banking machines when I withdrew $1000 for a trip. The teller told me..oh we don't carry that much $100 bills in our bank..could you come back in 2 days time and we will have it for you? All I wanted was TEN $100 bills! Same with US cash going on a trip into the US. "Give us your US cash order and pick it up in 2-3 days.":rolleyes2:

Not sure if they keep their teller tills or vaults low on purpose to avoid robberies, but it's a mystery why banks don't keep too much cash on hand.
Maybe because it's mostly all electronic transactions these days and the security armored vehicles only come around to load the ATM machines with cash, so they don't have to keep much in their tills these days.


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> Going to be fun initially for the both consumers and merchants http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle8155151/


It appears that the gov'ts or businesses could get a bit of a windfall on the "rounding out" practice where cash is still used.
Lets say you buy an item for a dollar (at the Dollar Store) and the total amount of the sale is $1.00 + 13cents HST.

Are they going to round it off in your favour to $1.10 (one loonie and ten cent piece?)...no because gov't won't want to lose their 3 cents of tax on that transaction and the store is not going to take a loss of 3 cents on the sale to pay the 3 cent tax to the gov't...so they will round it off to $1.15.
Now who winds up with the extra "profit" on that cash transaction? Not you likely.


----------



## andrewf

Several retailers have said that will always round down in the customer's favour (for cash transactions). So, 1.01, 1.02, 1.03, 1.04 round to 1.00.

Home Depot and Loblaws are two that I'm aware of, I'm sure others will follow suit.

Also, the government will only ever get the 13% owed. The rounding comes from the retailer.


----------



## kcowan

james4beach said:


> Either way, you can't trust a Canadian bank to produce any meaningful amount of cash upon request.


Cash in the vault is idle float and, adding up all their branches, it is something they work to minimize. That is just good cash management. It is the same with retailers. They are much more keen to give cashback on a purchase late in the shift.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> *Several retailers have said that will always round down in the customer's favour *(for cash transactions). So, 1.01, 1.02, 1.03, 1.04 round to 1.00.
> 
> *Home Depot and Loblaws are two that I'm aware of, I'm sure others will follow suit.*
> 
> Also, the government will only ever get the 13% owed. The rounding comes from the retailer.


 ... for a limited-time, of course.


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... for a limited-time, of course.


yes, wait a few years, until the gov't decides the nickel is too expensive to make and eliminates production.
At least in the US, they won't go for this kind of artificial gov't saving..they want their money untouched, including the paper $1 bill.


----------



## andrewf

I'm sorry, I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theory. 

I don't know where you get the idea that retailers want to transparently screw their customers or that eliminating the penny will have any impact on prices. It's just flat out wrong.


----------



## andrewf

You're actually in favour of paper $1 bills? You really have no idea how disgusting those things are (you know how they are used, I mean)?


----------



## bgc_fan

carverman said:


> yes, wait a few years, until the gov't decides the nickel is too expensive to make and eliminates production.
> At least in the US, they won't go for this kind of artificial gov't saving..they want their money untouched, including the paper $1 bill.


Too late.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...-off-ndp-mp-pat-martin-sets-sights-on-nickel/


----------



## andrewf

You can't get rid of the nickel without replacing the quarter with the 50 cent piece. Reason being that to have a well-ordered coin system, every unit can be subdivided by those of lesser value. This allows those giving change to use a greedy algorithm for determining how many of each coin to give as change while minimizing the number of coins given. The 50 cent piece is still minted, but not commonly circulated. 

Personally, I'd be fine with getting kid of the dime instead.


----------



## Beaver101

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...-polymer-bank-notes-poll-finds-204327213.html ... some poliing news on this ...lol.

And in the meantime, low-income Canadians continue to hoard and count their pennies...lol.


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## carverman

andrewf said:


> You're actually in favour of paper $1 bills? You really have no idea how disgusting those things are (you know how they are used, I mean)?


Yes, I've seen them mutilated and dirty, crumpled and full of germs...but give the new plastic money a chance and I'm sure we will see some abuse on them as well including carrying all sorts of germs..c-difficle...flu virus...etc. New money is the same as old money..it gets dirtier as time goes on..but I suppose, *you can launder it* if you wish. Same with the coins...how many times has that nickel, dime, quarter, loonie/toonie been handled by dirty hands? 

Of course snorting coke is going to be much harder, because this new plastic money can't be rolled up into a tube to stick in
yer nose! The mint should have attached plastic straws to each plastic bill for that purpose. 



> Whatever the case, money is very very dirty and you should have knowledge of exactly what kind of bacteria is on your money and how to avoid getting sick from handling dirty money. Even illegal drug residue can exist on money for a long period of time.





> SNORT
> To insufflate, that is, breathe in a line of powdered solid through a straw up one's nostril.
> 
> Usually applied to cocaine or ketamine.
> and in Canada, since they introduced those pocket bulging...loonies and toonies....*He had to roll up a 5 dollar bill to snort his
> cocaine.*


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## Beaver101

Maybe this thread can move up to the Frugality tips section now based on this study http://www.thestar.com/business/2013/04/02/new_money_people_spend_less_if_theyre_using_clean_crisp_bills.html ... would this study apply to you? I know it wouldn't for me since I couldn't hardly wait to get rid of these new plastic bills the minute they land in my hand ... love to break the $20s and $50s and then getting my money stretched this way ... :biggrin:

I wonder if the spending-less effect is the same on getting a new plastic credit card though?


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## NorthKC

I agree that I have to be a little more conscious of the $20 bill. $50 and $100 bills doesn't seem to be as bad as the $20. 

The only plus side to the $20 bill? I'm seeing a lot of these bills in the washing machines at my apartment building left behind by countless people! I've collected over $100 so far.


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## kcowan

NorthKC said:


> The only plus side to the $20 bill? I'm seeing a lot of these bills in the washing machines at my apartment building left behind by countless people! I've collected over $100 so far.


This must imply that they float out of pockets during the cycle. Definitely an advantage!


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## Ponderling

I'm used to them from living in Oz for four years back from 99 to 03. 

All plastic bills, no pennies. Lot more use of debt cards, less cash. 
Interesting identiy requirements to establish a bank account to combat fraud that we could make use of here too. 
Also now no more person cheques- all electronic fund transfer to minimize fraudulent transactions.


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## Beaver101

Sure is an advantage to the finder ... lol! Hmmm.... now I got to keep my eyes open at the laundromat also ... :biggrin:


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## machv5

Yes all the plastic money sucks. It doesn't fold right and unfolds even worse. Once it gets a small split it can tear completely just by taking it out of your pocket or wallet. It will work its way out of pockets like your watch pocket on jeans every time (I luckily found the 2 $50 bills only due to cherry blossoms hiding it one time, after that last time I no longer put larger bills into that pocket). The newer ones stick together, now these bills have been out a while look how people have adjusted their mannerisms to account for it especially when giving out bills as change in a grocery store. Sadly the bills sticking together thing hasn't resulted in any windfalls from bank machines. I have yet see the result from one going through the dryer and this dread has caused me to now triple check pockets. I still feel uneasy about finding what resembles a tourists keychain in my clean laundry ad trying to convince a bank teller it was once a $100


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## machv5

*car*

Oh and I can no longer make cool origami out of them either


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## indexxx

I can't stand them. As a bar manager, I count thousands of dollars in cash daily, and these bills are a total pain. They stick together all the time, if they get a bit wet or sticky they are just a nightmare. Any crease in them and they mess up the cash drawers. I never noticed these issues with plastic bills from other countries- either I wasn't paying attention or it's a different formula for the material.


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## carverman

indexxx said:


> Ithese bills are a total pain. T*hey stick together all the time, if they get a bit wet or sticky they are just a nightmare.* Any crease in them and they mess up the cash drawers. I never noticed these issues with plastic bills from other countries- either I wasn't paying attention or it's a different formula for the material.


Hmmm..I suppose this adds a new meaning to "laundering money"? How do you clean them?

These new polymer bills besides sticking together when new or wet, collect germs and viruses from affected people handling them over the years these bills are supposed to be serviceable.

Once creased, they seem to upset the pile of non creased bills in a cash drawer (non conformists),
and you can't iron these as easily as paper money even if they are still being laundered. 

They also look "cheap" even at face value, but supposedly harder to counterfeit, and how can you tell a counterfeit from a real one when they both look so cheap? :biggrin:
Also, some claim that these bills have a habit of floating out of pockets in a wash/dry cycle, thereby providing a "windfall" for those that might use the laundry afterwords. 

Another begging question: Do they stick to the dryer when heated up?


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## uptoolate

They definitely work their way out of pockets (and not just in the laundry!). No money in jeans' back pockets anymore. Deep in the front only!


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## dogcom

Saw one while driving a few weeks ago and discovered it was 2 twenties instead when I picked them up. They where wet so I went to Tim Hortons and took them out as they had dried up and discovered I had found three twenties. I know I was driving but I can almost see everything on the road like nails and bolts but especially money. I have also found a two hundred dollar bills while driving. Of course I make sure it is safe to stop or go around and park until I can pick it up.


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## james4beach

I suspect the formulation can be improved. I loved the plastic bills in Australia


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## lonewolf

I think the day is coming that physical money will be banned to try to stop all the cash transactions that go on under the table to avoid taxes.


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## Beaver101

dogcom said:


> *Saw one while driving *a few weeks ago and discovered it was 2 twenties instead when I picked them up. They where wet so I went to Tim Hortons and took them out as they had dried up and discovered I had found three twenties. I know *I was driving but I can almost see everything on the road like nails and bolts but especially money. I have also found a two hundred dollar bills while driving*. Of course I make sure it is safe to stop or go around and park until I can pick it up.


... amazing ... and now which road were you driving along? :biggrin:


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## Beaver101

uptoolate said:


> They definitely work their way out of pockets (and not just in the laundry!). N*o money in jeans' back pockets anymore.* Deep in the front only!


 ... doesn't people keep their bills in their "wallet" anymore or maybe the wallet is all worn from carrying those loonies, and twoonies?


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## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Hmmm..I suppose this *adds a new meaning to "laundering money"? *How do you clean them?
> 
> These new polymer bills besides sticking together when new or wet, collect germs and viruses from affected people handling them over the years these bills are supposed to be serviceable.
> 
> Once creased, they seem to upset the pile of non creased bills in a cash drawer (non conformists),
> and you can't iron these as easily as paper money even if they are still being laundered.
> 
> *They also look "cheap" even at face value, but supposedly harder to counterfeit, and how can you tell a counterfeit from a real one when they both look so cheap? :biggrin:*


 ... LOL! And I second this cheapie new counter-feit proof-money despite we had them for a year. Now it makes the old bills feeling fake on handling. 



> Also, some claim that these bills have a habit of floating out of pockets in a wash/dry cycle, thereby providing a "windfall" for those that might use the laundry afterwords.
> 
> Another begging question: Do they stick to the dryer when heated up?


 ... I have yet to find a nickel in the laundromat that I use, let alone these plastic cheapies! I have not attempt this dry-your-wet-polymer-bills experiment but it sounds like dogcom did and it was okay. Maybe the hand-dryer is no-where as hot as a clothes-dryer. If the latter can kill bed-bugs, I suppose it can kill the bill too. :biggrin:


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## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> .
> ... I have yet to find a nickel in the laundromat that I use, let alone these plastic cheapies! I have not attempt this dry-your-wet-polymer-bills experiment but it sounds like dogcom did and it was okay.


I did the money laundering experiment on 5 twenties I had. Wet them all under the tap and shook them off..yes
they stick together like..well use whatever coined expression you are familiar with.:biggrin:

However, once they are dried off with a simple paper towel, they resume their previous shape and count out easily,
so I really don't know what the complaint with these..LOL!

If I have more than a couple twenties in my wallet, I try to flip them over, so the clear window on one bill is at one end and the other bill's clear window is at the other end of the "stack" of bills. 

Now static could have an effect on these sticking together, but I don't have any mechanism to charge them with
static electricity.



> Maybe the hand-dryer is no where as hot as a clothes-dryer.
> If the latter can kill bed-bugs, I suppose it can kill the bill too. :biggrin:


Tried that with a hand held dryer on high heat..1200watts...the $20 bill flapped around a bit but showed no signs of any melting or other adverse effects. As soon as I removed the heat, it went back to its original folded crease.
I guess the moral of this story is' the polymer bills will survive just about any kind of abuse, save
a big fire...and so can the bed bugs...LOL!


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## Beaver101

You had to actually try the home-DIY-money-laundering experiment on these cheapies, eh? And "5" twenty notes too?! :highly_amused:

Okay, so the hand held dryer had no effect on damaging the polymer bills - how about try "ironing" them? I would use a $5 instead if you're really tempted to prove these polymer bills will survive any kind of abuse (barring an inferno). :biggrin:





> If I have more than a couple twenties in my wallet, I try to flip them over, so the clear window on one bill is at one end and the other bill's clear window is at the other end of the "stack" of bills.


^ On a serious note, I agree your simple non-sticking-bills method works well. A plastic band or clip of some sort holds the stack well together. Just don't let the entire stack slip through the pocket though!


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## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> Okay, so the hand held dryer had no effect on damaging the polymer bills - *how about try "ironing" them? I would use a $5 instead if you're really tempted to prove these polymer bills will survive any kind of abuse* (barring an inferno).


Beav; everyone knows that when you are ironing delicate things, you should place a tea towel over the piece of fabric to be ironed..especially if it is made of delicate threads such as nylon or silk. 
Secondly, you shouldn't really dry iron. If you use the steam setting, the steam moisture prevents hot spots
and takes out the wrinkles faster at the same time.

I doubt that I would ever have to iron plastic money though, as these polymer bills don't wrinkle up in the same way as the old paper bills used to..where people would wrinkle them up on purpose. 





> Just don't let the entire stack slip through the pocket though!


That's why it is called "pocket money". :biggrin:


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## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Beav; everyone knows that *when you are ironing delicate things, you should place a tea towel over the piece of fabric to be ironed..especially if it is made of delicate threads such as nylon or silk. * Secondly, you shouldn't really dry iron. If you use the steam setting, the steam moisture prevents hot spots
> and takes out the wrinkles faster at the same time.


...true, but these bills are not considered "delicate" things. Weren't they meant to take abuse so as to "last" forever (well, almost)? :biggrin: I have dry -ironed stuff such as pillow cases, so I need /can use them asap. 



> I doubt that I would ever have to iron plastic money though, as these polymer bills don't wrinkle up in the same way as the old paper bills used to..where people would wrinkle them up on purpose.


...perhaps you don't crease your bills but I know some people (including guys) do - fold them like into 2 cm x 2 cm note size so to cram several in their change pouch or wallet. I tried it and they still retain their crinkles - so far no tears in the notes yet. The cashiers might not like them as someone above also said. :biggrin:

When these polymer notes first came out, I heard they melted under heat radiators and in the microwave in an attempt to dry them. Now these would not be unusual /extreme methods of drying stuff.


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## Beaver101

Not sure if this news piece should go under Mr. Spock passing or this polymer note thread. But here goes anyways, 

*Bank Of Canada Angry Over Spock Banknotes*

https://uk.yahoo.com/movies/canadian-bank-angry-over-banknotes-defaced-with-mr-112685325246.html



> *Canadian fans of the late Leonard Nimoy have angered the Bank of Canada by *defacing their $5 notes in tribute to Mr Spock.
> 
> The image of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, who was the seventh prime minister of Canada from 1896 to 1911, has long been altered to look like Nimoy’s iconic Star Trek character. ...
> 
> Spokeswoman Josianne Menard has urged *Trekkies to curtail the ‘spocking’ their $5 notes.*
> 
> *A statement read: “It is not illegal to write or make other markings on bank notes. However, there are important reasons why it should not be done.*
> 
> “*Writing on a bank note may interfere with the security features and reduces its lifespan. Markings on a note may also prevent it from being accepted in a transaction.*
> 
> “Furthermore, the Bank of Canada feels that writing and markings on bank notes are inappropriate as they are a symbol of our country and a source of national pride.
> 
> “*Canadians can help keep their bank notes in good condition so they circulate longer (e.g., by placing them in a wallet and avoiding defacing, misusing, stapling, creasing or crumpling them).*”


 ... these polymer notes are priceless afterall. :biggrin:


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## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> .
> When these polymer notes first came out, I heard they melted under heat radiators and in the microwave in an attempt to dry them. Now these would not be unusual /extreme methods of drying stuff.


urban legends I would think. Who would want to lose $20 in that kind of experiment...or see if the bill catches fire by match or candle.

People, who resort to these things have nothing better to do with their lives...instead of destroying money, they should be out making money.


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## Beaver101

carverman said:


> urban legends I would think. *Who would want to lose $20 in that kind of experiment...or see if the bill catches fire by match or candle*.
> 
> People, who resort to these things have nothing better to do with their lives...instead of destroying money, they should be out making money.


 ... I don't think it was intentional ... the bills got wet somehow and they were just trying to dry them the quickest way.


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## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... I don't think it was intentional ... the bills got wet somehow and they were just trying to dry them the quickest way.


Normally, a room radiator isn't going to get hot enough to melt this kind of polymer especially on the dashboard of a car or in a can (as was reported) next to a radiator..
in both cases it was very risky in terms of losing that money.



> The Bank stands by its statements made this summer that *polymer bank notes cannot be affected by the types and levels of heat as has been suggested in last summer's news reports,* and has seen no evidence to the contrary," Harrison said.
> 
> He noted the bank had performed "extensive and rigorous tests" prior to issuing the notes, including exposing them to extremes of *140 C* and -75 C.


FYI ..140C is 284 degrees F. BTW...Paper money will burn at 451F or 232C. 

I think if the interior of a car or the space around a radiator (which is below 100C..the boiling point of water) gets that hot, you would have some serious fire issues..and that is another matter entirely.

Sure, the polymer bill, if exposed to open flame or a butane blowtorch..will melt and burn up.


> Disposable butane lighters ignite at a temperature of 77 degrees Fahrenheit. *The temperature a butane flame could reach if it did not lose any heat -- called the adiabatic temperature -- is 4,074 degrees *F, but most butane flames actually burn at temperatures closer to 3,578F degrees due to their interaction with the surrounding environment.


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