# Trading 101



## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

a few very simple techniques for the interested ones.
do ur own DD and always remember that the mkts can and will act irrationally
the guy needs some hair implant IMO though:tongue-new:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GBO7-7M5eQ


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Oh, look who is back?! 

Even with some of the basics mentioned in the video, this isn't trading 101. Learning trends/support & resistance, etc., takes experience!

Somewhere I read that rule #1 for traders was entering/exiting/escaping, and I know that your favourites are 'not entering' and/or 'escaping'. :biggrin:

Anyhow, you can't learn from books/videos alone; eventually one has to put into practice what has been learned, and unfortunately, it's the mistakes you'll make that will teach you the biggest lessons.

A trader101, should not even have to deal with major losses, and definitely not use margin. By starting small, his/her lessons will have been more valuable than costly, even with realized losses.

As Jack Schwager also says in below video, and what I came to realize early on due to volatility, is that there is more than a single strategy for success & for protecting one's investments [be it for short or long-term investments], but of course some here have ridiculed that approach. 

*'Successful traders are hard workers' *- that's a key message, ie: there are no free lunches, whether you're just a beginner or an experienced investor/trader. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7zVfhg9IBI


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

capital gains is unearned income

Iam not falling fot that one


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

You're not falling for what?


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

That there is no work to make money in the market.


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## TOMAN (Sep 10, 2012)

Thanks T.GAL for the interesting video. I see a few old folks in front rows. Are they more mature in terms of emotion management for day trading?

A few newbie questions:
(a) Any professional day traders here? 
(b) What software do you use for day trading?
(c) Are any discounted brokers that provide level 2 quot?
(d) Any recommendations for good day trading books?



Toronto.gal said:


> Oh, look who is back?!
> 
> Even with some of the basics mentioned in the video, this isn't trading 101. Learning trends/support & resistance, etc., takes experience!
> 
> ...


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

I haven't thought about the age/emotion question, but I would say not necessarily.

I don't think there are 'professional' traders here.

You say you're a newbie, so if you have not read any books yet, the Dummies Version is a good start. 

Level 2 quotes are provided by your broker, but you need a certain balance in your account to be given access.


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## TOMAN (Sep 10, 2012)

Thanks T.gal. Yes, I am reading "Day Trading for Dummies by Ann Logue 2007". My broker (CIBC Investor Edge) only provides level 1 quote by default. Maybe I have to call them to see if I am qualified. I assume there is additional cost.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> Oh, look who is back?!
> 
> Even with some of the basics mentioned in the video, this isn't trading 101. Learning trends/support & resistance, etc., takes experience!
> 
> ...


hehe
someone liked my return
anyhow.
the video and the thread was not really intended to give noobs here a fatal notion that trading based on charts and techniqiques only means all.
the charts are there for you to use but can be irrational like the mkts also.
as a chartist myself though and also as a futures trader , nothing is written in stone.
as we all know by now for example 9 hopefullly some of us) there is a massive amount of money from MM into oil.
the question is when are they going to unload and close those positions .
are they going to roll them /
one cannot look at the equities alone without looking at what is happening in the futures mkt.

the waltz is played for both and in the end we have the currencies just to make things murkier.
for the general public that saw my post about trading 101 puhleaze do not try those things without first understanding the mechanisms and the mkt irrational moves.
thks for the warm welcome:biggrin:


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

TOMAN said:


> Maybe I have to call them to see if I am qualified. I assume there is additional cost.


I'm with CM as well.

Yes, you have to call them. Active traders, who have x amount in their account and trade x amount per year, may also qualify to become a Premium Edge client.

If you qualify, no, there is no cost, or actually, yes, but you're paying it via your regular commissions! 

You will do some virtual trading first, right?

*TN:* I'm learning more & more about the futures market!


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Toronto.gal , spot on video
thenegotiator, wasnt to impressed with that video, simply develope a method that gives you an edge that fits your personality & simply buy & sell according to your method.

There are ways to turbo charge money management that give a position a positive curvature in regards to market movement using options. For every point the market moves in your direction more money is made then is lost when the market moves against your position point for point. (slippage from bid?ask spreads will be higher)

Of course if using this stratagy with in one's method does not give an investor an edge. No matter how one slices it, money management wont give an investor an edge because there is no edge.

I kinda think do to slippage from commision & bid/ask spreads it is harder to make it as a day trader then a position trader. Reason being over a longer time period the percentage move up or down tends to be larger then the percentage move up or down of a given day. The commision & bid/ask spreads would eat up a larger percentge of the move up or down because the move is smaller. There are methods out there that can be day traded & make money. It is also possible if in the future if wider bid/ask spreads become the norm the method could stop working.

Because day trading does not fit my personality, does not mean it does not fit someone elses.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

thenegotiator

I failed in my thinking your video was important in regards to understanding some of the nature that is needed for an investor to be successfull.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

There are a lot less winners in this game then I think most realize. Your playing against some of the richest most powerfull men in the world & not everyone is man enough to play fairly which adds chellange to the game. In a poker game money works it way to the most powerfull players. The markets will teach you things about yourself that you might not learn otherwise enjoy the journey.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

lone

my idea of the video was just to make new traders see that there is an imense amount of chart theories and also for people to realize that nothing is guaranteed in trading.
as an example and as an Ng trader .
in february the perspective of breaking new lows in the nymex has changed substantially.
we had a new inflow of money into the mkt .
therefore we are seeing a historical record in Oi in the MKT.
is it a trend changer?
we do not know yet.
in less than a month natural gas rallied 90 cents in the front month.
at the same time the further out contracts barely followed that move making spreads look completely out of whack.
the futures mkt is an absolute must know for stocks that have high volatility like gold/oil/silver and obviously natural gas.
in one month the mkt consumed an impressive amount of gas.
we are not sure if it is structural or just weather adjusted.
we have 2 camps now in a fierce debate and a massive amount of money on the long side.
i mean massive as historically massive.
it is difficult to comprehend why ABX is trading at these levels?
no.
is it difficult to comprehend why coal or steel companies are in the tank?
no.

i mentioned a long time ago that a healthy mkt NEEDS spec money on futures and short money on stocks.
are they both absent atm?

in the futures mkt i know they are ATM in certain commoditties.

the video is an ilustration from a series of videos that anyone can find online.
the problem for the trader ( either daytrader or swingtrader ) to try and get in and get out when they are on the right side of the trade.
anyway .
nuff rambling 
GL


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

lonewolf said:


> There are a lot less winners in this game then I think most realize. Your playing against some of the richest most powerfull men in the world & not everyone is man enough to play fairly which adds chellange to the game. In a poker game money works it way to the most powerfull players. The markets will teach you things about yourself that you might not learn otherwise enjoy the journey.


i absolutely agree with ya.
u and i do not move mkts.

i try to stay nimble on my end.
some lessons are only learned when u do it.
cheers


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I have a few trading rules for myself written down somewhere. For any time I'm going to place a large trade or make a significant move. Starts with the basic:

1. Never trade on an empty stomach
2. Have I slept enough and am I sharp enough to drive the 401 in heavy traffic?

Another rule I have is to avoid any market/exchange with poor liquidity or that lacks short sellers.

Following up on something thenegotiator said. I really don't feel like this is a healthy or normally operating market right now. For instance, where are the short sellers? Shorts are a critical element of healty markets and add balance, as well as liquidity in times of distress. But short sellers have been chased out of markets, because the SEC (and Europeans) outlawed short selling during the financial crisis. This taught market participants that even though you do your research and get a company's situation right (e.g. that the company is over-valued), the regulator can step in ... randomly ... and totally screw you out of your trade. How's that for an incentive to do your research and get the right trade!

I've been very nervous in the markets ever since that short selling ban. I think it chased away a lot of small & large speculators. Those speculators were doing an important function: aiding efficient markets and doing price discovery. But today they won't be doing it because they know the regulator could come again randomly and force them to cover short positions. Instead, you have everyone piling on the long side of the market. The government stimulus further juices the long-only side.

Regulators have been doing more sorts of random stepping-in lately. During that 2010 flash crash there were wild price swings. There were speculators who made excellent trades, such as buying liquid large caps at 80% or 90% discounts. But the exchanges later broke many of the trades, and did so at an arbitrary 60% price level. Again, this screwed many totally legitimate speculators out of their profits. Another move that scared and chased away proper price discovery.

I used to do more short term trading and speculation. But I've stopped doing it after the short selling ban, and the Flash Crash nailed it... I'm not participating any more. The market is acting too weird, and the regulators do unpredictable things that (surprise surprise) tend to screw me out of profits.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

james.
bingo.
u nail it to the wall.
the lack of short sellers completely destroys liquidity in the mkt.
i am not talking about HFT that scalps pennies per millisecond.
i am talking millions or billions of dollars changing hands.
natural gas was strongly hit by position limitations which caused major conflicts amongst large trading houses like Centaurus with Arnie as what i would call the natural gas genius of the last few decades.
he closed his fund.
the lack of experienced analysts in the natural gas area due to layoffs is also another influence.
the mkt needs short sellers at all times to maintain liquidity.
u cannot have bulls only.
the futures mkts in general have also been affected but not to the same extent as the equities mkts.
it costs a lot of money to be short .
as for driving on the 401 lol , i think i should have left my desk empty today because i am in deep pain atm.
i was run over by a 48 wheeler .
is there anything like a 48 wheeler lol.
cheers.
good thinking brother


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> I have a few trading rules for myself written down somewhere. For any time I'm going to place a large trade or make a significant move. Starts with the basic:
> 
> 1. Never trade on an empty stomach
> 2. Have I slept enough and am I sharp enough to drive the 401 in heavy traffic?
> ...




another astonishing post from a strictly devout preacher who swears he's never owned anything but GICs & a tiny handful of basic etfs since the late 1990s ...

come clean, james4! what are you, some kind of proselytizer/advertiser for the etf industry?

if so, you shouldn't let your cover slip, the way you keep on doing ...


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

hmmm
it looks like i have been away from this board for wayyy too long.
interesting
i will keep my reply to the post though.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

humble_pie said:


> another astonishing post from a strictly devout preacher who swears he's never owned anything but GICs & a tiny handful of basic etfs since the late 1990s ...


I didn't say I only own GICs. I said that my exposure is substantially concentrated in cash and fixed income... this doesn't mean I never speculate. It means that any speculation I do is a tiny % of my total assets.

My experience in both speculative trading (stocks, futures, options, forex) and low-risk investments (cash, savings, GICs, bonds, and basic index ETFs) has lead me to believe that you're generally better off in the low-risk investments, especially in cash & savings.

And that's why I endorse those things. I think most investors should stick to cash, savings accounts and GICs unless they actually have so much money that they have excess amounts to put into stocks. And if they are going to get into stocks, I suggest they start with the index ETFs.

If the investor still has extra money, then they can go into riskier things (individual stocks, options gambling, etc) because that's money they can lose.

How many people actually have enough money to get to that level? Few, I think. How many people actually have 1 or 2 years of income in cash equivalent savings (let's say 200K cash, for a household). Sure, if you actually have 300K or 500K in liquid money, then by all means fulfill your cash & fixed income requirement and then extend into stocks & whatever.

Do YOU have 200K in cash & savings accounts? Probably not.... I would argue that you shouldn't be dabbling in any stocks or mutual funds until you have that kind of cash saved up.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

james4beach

Spot on post. The average investor would be better off if over thier life time they invested in the safest investments possible. Not everyone should play the market, the precise nature is needed to make money in the market, an investor needs to take the appropriate steps to gain the precise nature.
I do not want to be an average investor (invest how the average investor invests) one of the ways i do this is my money on the table is a smaller ratio of my total net worth then the average investor.

Another thing that is differnt is I approach investing objectively, not subjectively, Having black & white parameters of when to buy & sell. I try to be scientific with my investing I do not view it as an art.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Do YOU have 200K in cash & savings accounts? Probably not.... I would argue that you shouldn't be dabbling in any stocks or mutual funds until you have that kind of cash saved up.


i guess this rule pushes most cmf forum members right out of the picture


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

Jeez, if I invest everything at 1-3% return per year I'm only going to have a decade or so where I'll have more than the $200k to invest at a higher rate of return. The only way I'm going to make a decent nest egg on cash and GICs if is inflation goes nuts and I can get a few GICs at 12% or so for 20 years. 

It's going to be a really crappy retirement for me if I take no risk. Personally, I think not having enough money from not taking risks at all is a BIGGER risk than being in stocks.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4, you stated several times that you have owned 90% GICs plus 10% basic equity etfs since the late 1990s. You also claimed to have enjoyed "stellar returns" from this ultra-cautious portfolio of roughly 15 years' duration.

what i find is that your messages are highly contradictory & therefore confusing. 

on the one hand you tell people they should eschew banks & invest in exceptionally conservative couch potato portfolios such as the one you claim to be your own, with 90% in conservative or guaranteed fixed income & only 10% in equity etfs.

on the other hand you also say you are a heavy short-term speculative trader. You have recently discussed complex option strategies & offered a number of sophisticated day-trading tips to cmf forum.

me i am just a dumb crumb who finds that finance is difficult & complicated. Managing investments is challenging. A great deal of the work consists of detecting & avoiding trouble, imho.

part of this trouble is caused by chimera who are not what they seem to be, imho. Doublespeak in finance may be omni-present but it is always hard to deal with. Doublespeakers also tend to stand out from a crowd, so that's why i've wondered what it is that you actually practice, as opposed to what you preach.

.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> i guess this rule pushes most cmf forum members right out of the picture


Yes, the absolute majority on the forum + the greater number of Canadians, that fall in the lower/average & upper middle class categories.

The real danger is financial illiteracy.

This is a money forum after all, people don't come to learn about GICs, or to be encouraged to spend as little time as possible on their investments.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

This is a money forum after all, people don't come to learn about GICs, or to be encouraged to spend as little time as possible on their investments.[/QUOTE]

Toronto.gal : I appriciate your posts due to your understanding regarding investing & your word wizardy to cultivate understanding for the reader.

Investors have to get close to the market but not to close, If they are not close enough they will get burned, If they get to close they could be burnt to a crisp even faster.

Close enough to do research, develope a philosophy, a money management strategy then a method to invest that fits thier philosophy on the market & based on sound money management. The order of doing this most investors get wrong they first try to develope a method before they develope a philosphy & money management plan.

An investor does not want to get to close that they seek the thrill of gambling.

Since time & energy which I value highly is in limited supply I like to use it wisely & to the best of my ability to spend the precise amount of time & energy in all my endeavors, including playing the market to be the most productive as possible to come in contact & or possession of that which I value.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

lone.
i think T.gal does have a point somehow.
most people may feel that i do have a bias in regards to her comments.
that is not the case.
the case is that she does have the guts to go against the grain.
what is an investor per se in ur opinion?
lets take the great buffet.
he did not start his glorious and impressive career buyng blue chips.
on the contrary.
in his primordial years he traded highly volatile stocks.
not sure about penny stocks but highly risky companies.
obviously as he made his millions along his career the potential to move money had a much greater magnitude.
i for one cannot consider myself an investor at all.
i take high risks in several areas of the commodity area.
i ventured some tech stock trading and succeeded in shorting FB.
was I lucky ?
maybe . maybe not.
for sure i did some homework before shorting that puppy.
there were indications IMO that would lead the stock back to the 25 bux area.
i had to cover my bets and stayed with my thesis on that short.
i think that we are a tiny drop in the ocean as we all know it .
nevertheless risk is something that u have to take in order to make money.
one of the fellows in my small group of NG traders decided to stay on the sidelines for the time being.
why?
because the mkt is out of whack .
the NG curve is completely distorted.
the spreads went haywire etc..... the list is long.
i decided to try and see if my own thesis will prevail in the end.
call me stubborn ... and yes I may loose money on this trade that i am going through.
therefore i think that posting what u bought and so on and so forth sometimes is irrelevant IMO.
the question is always Why are u buying or selling any financial instrument.
either it is futures ETFs equities whatever.
just to end my thinking when u enter a trade how much tenacity does one have to stay in the trade when one believes in his thesis
anyway.
nuff rambling right?
GLTA


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

lonewolf said:


> I try to be scientific with my investing I *do not view it as an art*.


Why not? That element is present as well.

You might be taking the definition of 'art' too literally perhaps.

The definition of 'art'  in this context, is simply having learned to do something well, whether the elements are scientific or not btw, so it's a science + art, as there are non-scientific elements in investing. For example, would you say that learning to save is scientific? It's part of an investing strategy, no? And anyone can do this without reading any books, even when math/numbers are involved, it's no brain surgery. It has also been said that investing/savings = a 'lost art' for many [not referring to those genuinely unable to save], which simply means that they haven't mastered the challenge [art] of savings.

Would you say that controlling one's emotions is scientific? I suppose you could find a math component, but you know where I'm going with this. Speaking of science, remember who said: *'Practicing physicians, among whom I still count myself, have a richly deserved reputation as miserable investors.'?* And why? As per the author, because docs don't believe investing is scientific; as per MHO, it's simpler than that even, it's because they don't have the time to learn it well enough [with exceptions].

*Bernstein's 4 Pillars of Investing:* Theory/History/Psychology/Business.

Most of the investment strategies/theories per se, are naturally scientific, but how is it that we don't all implement these in the same manner, even when following the same theories? Because some have implemented/learned said theories better than others, hence the 'art' part.

*TN:* if we cared about what 'most people' think, you/I/others, would have left this forum long ago after having been insulted. I'm here simply to help {members/non-members} & learn, not to make friends [that's just a bonus], nor care what most here think of me.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

TN: if we cared about what 'most people' think, you/I/others, would have left this forum long ago after having been insulted. I'm here simply to help {members/non-members} & learn, not to make friends [that's just a bonus], nor care what most here think of me. 

i agree with ya.
why do we post things then when we do not get proper answers?
is it time to stop placing questions and ideas?
u know how i trade i know how u trade .
it all makes sense to both of us at least right?
maybe we should give it a break then since the answers and the insults are not making our wallets fatter right?
:encouragement:


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

The negotiator

I dont like wearing the shackles of watching every tic by tic movement after I put my money on the table. I place the trade then I dont care & enjoy the day. I want to be out enjoying life not riding the emotional roller coaster wacthing every tic by tic movement. I post here to see my thoughts in print regarding the market to study my thoughts & look for contradictions within my thinking. Iam very close to finishing running the numbers to finish fine tuning my system which @ that point I will most likely stop posting.

It amazes me who the masses look to as super heros in finance

I dont view Buffet & the goverment sachs gang as men to look up to. Was there inside info when someone loaded up on Goldman before the Goverment handout? I agree with Martin Armstrong with his view of Buffit & the Goldman gang.

After Goverment Sachs & Clintons white water I dont view the Clintons as super heros.

I dont view Donald Trump as a Real Estate hero to look up to after not being responsible for the debt he owed & declared bankruptcy

I have no respect for those that cheat in the game. I have respect for those that are man enough to play fair weather they win or lose.


Toronto.Gal

Your right having an eye for pattern recognition could be viewed as an art.

After the crash of 1929 the president never looked to a group of artists to do the research as to what caused it & if it was preventable, he went to the scientist who then formed "The foundation of the study of cycles"

When they came to the conclusion the crash was a natural event & caused by cycles I have heard it say they were viewed as good scientist. When ever they mentioned that the cycles were linked to astro physics they were viewed as a bunch of idiots.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

thenegotiator

Iam not good with words & will often use investor when I should use trader & vise versa.

I think Iam most likely more of a trader.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

lone
i am a trader.
as for buffet and the ones u mentioned they are neither my heroes nor the gangsters.
more inclination in my view to gangsters in wall strret.
nevertheless they move mkts.
we do not and u do not want to get caught on the wrong side of the trade.
i am affirming to ya as a trader that GS knows jack about storage or power burn and more items about natural gas.
nevertheless the money follows their trail . and it is big money.
in the end that same ignorant money looses on certain things that they have no clue about.
the game played out there is not fair at all.
but in the end who said that fairness is part of the game right?
i do not even know what u are trading .
as for each tic of the mkt .... well when i daytrade i watch every tick of the mkt otherwise i would have my arse handed over to me in a platter.
post what u trade and maybe we can talk about it.
are u long something?
are u short something?
what have u done lately.
as for wording ... do not worry ... i am not sensitive at all.
this board is ultra sensitive which IMO there is no reason to be.
.
GL


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

lonewolf said:


> 1. I place the trade then I dont care & enjoy the day.
> 2. It amazes me who the masses look to as super heros in finance
> 3. I dont view the Clintons as super heros.
> 4. Your right having an eye for pattern recognition could be viewed as an art.


*1.* There are times trades need ur attention and times they don't.
*2.* Indeed, and not just in finance.
*3.* But it's not impossible that there will be another President by that name. :rolleyes2:
*4.* It's more than that, for if it were just that, everyone would take classes and all would be equally successful.

*TN:* I actually prefer a sensitive board. 

And to be fair, some here had something to do with my fat wallet, lol, ie: i have learned good lessons from some here, including you! Thanks.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

[post what u trade and maybe we can talk about it.
are u long something?
.
GL[/QUOTE]

thenegotiator

upcoming seasonal trade that I will place with small % of money in account that I will not watch the market ahead of time before trade is placed, while trade is on & before I sell.

The black & white parameters of this trade is very simple buy market on open on April 12 sell on market on close May 9 
buy SWN market on open sell May 9 close 25years data
88% wins
average profit 11%
risk/reward 1:4.1
average daily profit .43%
biggest profit 42%
average draw -3%
max draw -16%
total wins 22 
total losses 3
trading days 20

The black & white parameters I have in place for my short trade on the spx & or spy is to short with the use of options when the dow touches the upper line of the jaws of death pattern & to exit position based on an astro alignment.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Try to decipher unusual indicators!!!!....I had bought lufk(lufkin industries)And from my study i know low volume = low risk when a stock is advancing but it is way below avg volume(Bullish)I knew from various reading texas is booming and i knew the street was bullish on oil service providers and tried to tie the story together and bought shares in lufkin(ceo earnings call was horrid he made it sounds things were not good)Anyways the stock got hit hard on cyprus and it moved down more than 4% again extreme low volume!I puked up my 150 shs........Bought @ 67ish [email protected] 64 and change......This week i spit out my coffee when i looked @ it....Ge bought lufk and it surged to 88......I was right but wrong!I dont know what is worse-losing money on a trade traditionally or losing before a big fing move!


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> *1.* There are times trades need ur attention and times they don't.
> *2.* Indeed, and not just in finance.
> *3.* But it's not impossible that there will be another President by that name. :rolleyes2:
> *4.* It's more than that, for if it were just that, everyone would take classes and all would be equally successful.
> ...


T.gal.
np.
we all learn something anywhere right.
i also learned things from . like i will never another tech stock ever again lol:biggrin: .
simply not my area.
as for a sensitive board ... by all means but ... oh my tough crowd.
maybe i am part of this tough crowd also.
like i said before i think to dogcom way back when there is always a bid and an ask.
GL
i am leaving

the board will be back to a sensitive stage.... guaranteed:02.47-tranquillity:


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

donald said:


> This week i spit out my coffee when i looked @ it....Ge bought lufk and it surged to 88......I was right but wrong! I dont know what is worse-losing money on a trade traditionally or losing before a big fing move!


Sorry to hear Donald. 

How long ago did you buy the LUFK shares, current or previous year? The bigger mistake might have been in your entry price, which may have made u impatient, is that why you sold when you were down just -4%, ie: was it an emotional decision to sell? 

I have GE shares, long-term hold for 3+ years now, and this is another case of having paid more than a fair price for an acquisition IMO. LUFK received a premium of almost 38%, and as a result, it rose by almost as much on Monday as u mentioned. Anyway, you didn't lose much, so you should not be in so much pain, but I understand the disappointment of having had the acquired company in your portfolio!


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

T-gal,I am by & large a dividend/passive/investor but do allocate some $ to trading(getting my feet wet)Day trading is out(doesn't fit my personality)And so i feel the most comfortable swing trading(looking for cyclical cycles or a string of quaters)

I bought a couple mths ago-lost confidence in the trade so it was emotions(cyprus reared it's ugly head and it threw me off---rookie move)was concerned on a big broad sell off.

Did my homework(my own way)Identified a ''hot'' region(texas)identified a ''hot'' space(oil service space)Looked @ chart(looked good)I was reading a trucker's forum(it has 60,000+ members)and they have zero reason to bullshit.......texas keep coming up-what loads they were delivering-what companies they were carrying for--which lead me to lufkin(one of the biggest employers down there)......3 things screwed me-cyprus---a ''bad'' ceo earnings call(F-me it was positive but the analysit that was covering and the ceo was down talking(were not positive)and then there were HUGE volume oddities(wasnt acting like the peers in the group/competitors)and wasn't acting normal with general market moves.(did not no how to interpert)

One thing i have learned is when ceo report--get in when they talk down(but number's are good)get out when they are all out bullish(this happens @ cat all the time---every quater for 2 yrs i listen.....one last push so the boys can collect)

There was some serious munipulation in lufk i thought(look @ the volume chart in early march and how the stock was acting)Anyways i lost out--would of gained roughly 28.00 a share on 150 shs if i would of had the confidence to stay with it


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

donald said:


> 3 things screwed me-cyprus/a ''bad'' ceo earnings call/HUGE volume oddities


You forgot the 1st on that list, yourself! 

Judging the premium GE paid for Lufkin, I say that you definitely did your research well & picked a winner.

I don't know Lufkin well [wish I had], but given I'm a GE shareholder, I'm about to find out. However, even without knowing much about the former, why I concluded that GE had paid a hefty premium, was because Lufkin's 52 week low was $45 & just this past Nov. the shares fell below $50, hmmmm, why didn't GE make a move on the company then, instead of when they were at $63.93, and near a 2013 high I wonder [it's not as though they make such decisions overnight]. Had they made the move 6 months earlier, and paid a premium on the closing price of Nov. for example, GE could have saved quite a bit. But you don't care about any of that since Lufkin is what made you spit your coffee, LOL.

Anyhow, speaking of price, I noted that Lufkin started the year @ $57+ & it rose steadily since, so you actually bought high @ $67ish, that's why I was wondering whether that fact had made you impatient/scared when the shares had dropped 4%, ie: had your entry price been a factor in your decision to sell? Had you bought in the mid $50's just a month earlier, would you have sold @ $64ish when Cyprus made you uneasy? [at that point you would have been up around 10%], or would you have felt more confident holding? That is why entry price is so important, ideally one that gives you a bit of downside protection. 

The huge volume oddities had also been a big sign that big things were to come! 

You were protecting yourself from further losses, and nothing much wrong with that either, so live & learn. Had you been confident enough with your pick, the slight drop would not have bothered you.

Anyone who's been in the market long enough, has had same disappointment as you!


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

The thing that is funny isn my buy and hold portfolio i have had(obviously)large drops beyond 4% but it doesn't bug me(i'm in for income and hopefully capital app)In my trading(which is new)i don't view it the same(2 different mindsets)I keep reading over and over again(TRADING)CUT YOUR LOSSES QUICK---my exact threshold for the trade was exactly 4% lol and i bailed.
I realize 67 was in the 52 week high side but thought at the time it could be a good entry(and it was)No way did i know about about GE obviously.

I'm riding wynn and jpm(both high-net worth names) in my trading acct right now---both are good so far(jpm is finally out of there funk and it looks like i got in on wynn perfectly so far(right be for rbc ect upgraded macau....both(2 me)also thinking vegas will see some of the huge gains directly from the market in the vip)look like good swing trades,time will tell.Tgal on swings what % do you look for to take profits---5%move--10--15--20?do you swing or day trade?both im guessing.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Buying is always the easy part, isn't? It's far more difficult trying to figure out when to sell/take a loss, etc., but that gets easier with experience, and until you get that, managing risk & learning price movements are more important. 

Cutting losses is important, as is protecting your profits btw, and there is definitely a time for defensive & offensive selling. I mostly trade what I hold long-term, so it's a little easier in that regard.

As per % of profits that I take, it depends on various factors, like momentum, etc. 

At times I may exit prior to reaching my goals & not talking about cutting losses, but if for example, there were a better place for my money, like gold on Friday, lol.

Good luck with Wynn/JPM & balance of your holdings. nthego:


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> Buying is always the easy part, isn't? It's far more difficult trying to figure out when to sell/take a loss, etc., but that gets easier with experience, and until you get that, managing risk & learning price movements are more important.
> 
> 
> If your method is thought out in its entirety before hand, when to sell is as simple as following your method.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> You forgot the 1st on that list, yourself!
> 
> Toronto.gal spot on comment,please do not play on the table Iam playing. Those are words a strong player would use.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I'll findout with jpm(if things get weak in the market and i lose my focus i can turn the name into a dividend payer/long term hold)I'm just thinking it is cheap compared to the money centers(c,gs ect)I know jpm is going hard for private wealth mangement and wanting to take more share there away from the regionals and they also of course have their hand in equities and chase with the housing ''boom''.....I thought cyprus/diamond drama/drew ect ect was a great pull back to get in.It seems like jpm aint getting the respect like the others and they haven't with share price in the last year(11% or something like that)Wynn samething,could go long(wynn treats shareholders well(specials and a good yield)I'm looking for @least a 10-15% from jpm(+2% right now)and wynn for a 25%(up 7% right now)I'll have to see how it pans out-wynn moves like crazy when it breaks down or breaks out.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

lonewolf said:


> 1. If your *method is thought out in its entirety* before hand, when to sell is as simple as following your method.
> 2. please *do not play on the table Iam playing.* Those are words a strong player would use.


*1.* I guess I have to do more thinking, LOL.
*2.* What table? Are you calling me the weakest link? :concern:

*Lonewolf: *guess who i thought of while listening to this video today? I so love the song & video as well. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi6s2DdBCwY

*Donald:* I bought C way back, in the $3 range, before the reverse split. Still holding and on the + side now, but not by much. Don't follow the ones u mentioned, but good luck!


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Taking responsibility is a sign of a strong link.

Up thread someone gave reasons why thier trade failed. The market is always right it is the trader that fails. They gave several reasons without listing they failed.

Not a lot of people pick up on those little details & I dont want you to empty my pockets by being on the otherside of my trade. (was joking around)


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

lonewolf said:


> Toronto.gal said:
> 
> 
> > You forgot the 1st on that list, yourself!
> ...


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

well
dunno who should i address.
as usual i will re post my original video for everyone to see.
look again at the video at 3 minutes and onwards
maybe just maybe the bald guy may not be so stupid right?
but just like many other videos and techniques like i said before that are out there in several sites. he is not the only one right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GBO7-7M5eQ
again GLTA


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