# T.TPH Temple hotel inc



## lostwords

Has anyone here has a position in this stock? Nice yield. It has hotels in remote area and recently buying hotels in Ontario.


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## Butters

doctrine recently bought this!



May 20th he posted
Temple Hotels (TPH.TO) and Noranda Income Fund (NIF.UN) both announced Q1 results last week that disappointed investors. It figures that, after following these companies for a couple of years, that I make a purchase decision right before their first poor results in a while. However, both appear to be one-time effects.

For TPH, Jan-Mar could not have been a good period for the hotel business with all of the very cold weather. I think the outlook is good with both an uptick in economic activity (especially in Alberta) and a lower Canadian dollar which will be at least a small boost for tourism. I’ll continue to hold TPH as long as the 12 month trailing FFO payout ratio remains below 100%, which will account for seasonality.




Feb 2nd he posted
Today I’m taking a look at Temple Hotels, ticker TPH on the TSX. I’ve been running some screens on high yield companies and TPH has been coming up, warranting some further analysis.

Temple Hotels has been around as a REIT since 2006. They started out owning a group of hotels in Fort McMurray, Alberta, but they have been since expanding nationally. In December 2012, Temple converted from a REIT to a corporation. I am interested in real estate corporations because they pay dividends that are eligible for the federal tax credit.

TPH is expanding rapidly, so there is some flux to the quarterly reports due to equity issues and revenue growth.
Financials

Market Capitalization: $230 M
Revenue: $143 M
FFO: $25 M
Net Earnings: $4.6 M
P/E: 35
P/FFO: 7.6

While the net earnings aren’t great, the FFO and A/FFO, typical measurements in the real estate industry, are very good. Their acquisitions are providing them with cap rates of 10%, which is nearly double what most commercial and residential companies are managing (5-6%).

The book value per share works out to $3.58 (versus market price of $5.71). However, TPH is clear that the current appraisals of their hotel properties are $640M versus a $550M carrying value. Currently, they are only depreciating their assets, not adding the unrealized appraised gains. Adding the $90M delta gives a book value of $6.60 a share, which is a 15% discount that is more consistent with the more undervalued REITs in the market today.

While acquisitions are coming rapidly for Temple (5 hotels in the last year, bringing their total to 26), same hotel revenue growth was also very good at +10%. With the Canadian dollar dropping in value, I feel there is a certain short-term tourism benefit coming that could help their bottom line even further this year.
Dividend Analysis

Current yield: 9.5%
FFO Payout Ratio: 63% (down from 124% in 2012)
A/FFO Payout Ratio: 72% (down from 95% in 2012)

Here is some of the distribution history for Temple:

2007: $0.64/share (as a REIT)
2008: $1.10/share
2009: $0.50/share (dividend reduced)
2010: $0.40/share
2011: $0.42/share (dividend increased)
2012: $0.50/share (conversion to corporation, second dividend increase)
2013: $0.54/share

Distributions were cut, but not eliminated, in the 2008-09 recession. They have increased from $0.033 to $0.04 in 2011 and to $0.045 in 2012. Two increases in 3 years on a company with a 9.5% yield will always get my attention. The stock price has also increased by 50% in the same time period.

As a corporation, Temple will have to pay tax on their earnings. They have $13M in a tax liability that seems very manageable at the moment, especially with up to $90M in unlocked property value.
Recent Company Actions

Temple has recently completed a major equity issue for $57M in shares (this is included in the $230 market cap). This is enough cash to allow them to purchase a number of additional hotels. The issue was at $5.74 a share. They are getting great interest rates on their property mortgages and there is also a lot of interest in the equity issues.

The low net earnings is a bit of a concern, but it is clear to me that they are not appreciating the value of their properties and are choosing to depreciate them instead. The value could be unlocked in the future if they decide to sell any of the properties or if they do a major refinancing to gain cash through mortgaging a higher value property. This seems to be a fairly tax efficient strategy as they won’t have to pay taxes on the gains immediately.
Conclusions

Temple Hotels has definitely moved to the top of my watch list. The risk to the company is a major economic downturn – hotels are a cyclical business. But that just might make them even more of a buying opportunity in the future.


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## doctrine

Still holding. Had a nice 5-6% return over 6 months. I think they'll do well; the economy is growing, the Cdn dollar is down (tourism up), and their cap rates are fantastic, on average 10%. Wouldn't be surprised to see a hike in distributions in the next 6-9 months despite the 9.3% yield.


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## martinv

I purchased shares in Temple Hotels Inc. on June 4/2014. It was on my watch list for a long time.
The dividends are eligible for the federal dividend tax credit which is important for any shares held outside of RRSP/TFSA etc.


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## Quotealex

Speaking of TPH, anyone know how to track this stock in the Google's spreadsheet? I've tried "TPH.TO" but it doesn't seem to work!


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## lostwords

Quotealex said:


> Speaking of TPH, anyone know how to track this stock in the Google's spreadsheet? I've tried "TPH.TO" but it doesn't seem to work!


Have u tried tse:tph?

Thank you all for your responses. I might take a small position. Also looking at t.tbe and t.am.


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## martinv

Under my Google Finance portfolio it shows as TSE:TPH
Haven't tried the Google spreadsheet though.

edit. Sorry there "lostwords", just noticed you already had this!


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## Quotealex

lostwords said:


> Have u tried tse:tph?
> 
> Thank you all for your responses. I might take a small position. Also looking at t.tbe and t.am.


Nope it doesnt work neither.


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## londoncalling

lostwords said:


> Have u tried tse:tph?
> 
> Thank you all for your responses. I might take a small position. Also looking at t.tbe and t.am.


Out of curiosity why Automodular (t.am)?


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## lostwords

Saw an article about it on globe. Sorry can't provide link on my cell phone. 
Am has a nice yield. It has set cash as side in case it would liquidate after ford (their only client) contract expired.


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## londoncalling

For a bit of CMF history on Automodular

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/12178-Automodular-(TSE-AM)?highlight=automodular

now back to Temple discussion


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## humble_pie

back to Temple indeed, hoping to contribute my 2 cents.

the way i see it, there's nothing to be gained by re-inventing the wheel. There are plenty analysts who sift continuously through the financials. A dumb crumb like myself can't hope to compete. There are always others who do a far better job.

here in cmf forum, doctrine is an outstanding analyst who is much appreciated.

fatcat has also mentioned how one can piggyback part of the way with these analysts.

so here are my paltry 2 cents from a different approach. I always look at the quality of management. What have they been doing with their lives? what are their leadership experiences to date?

plus the big letters, T & C. Are management & direction Trustworthy? are they Competent? because if they're not T & C, there's no point buying their stock.

i especially do this with small microcap companies, since these tend to have smaller markets, therefore more risk, therefore i'm mindful of the periods when they could fall upon hard times. Such times are precisely when investors must call upon the T & C in management, since they will be the ones best able to survive & adapt in a harsh climate.

temple's president is a gentleman named Arni Thorsteinson.

_Arni C. Thorsteinson , CFA 
President 

[email protected]

Arni Thorsteinson is President and principal of Shelter Canadian Properties Limited. He has over 45 years of experience in real estate development and finance. Arni is a founder of Lanesborough, Huntingdon, Temple and White Rock Real Estate Investment Trusts, which are listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange. He is lead Director of Onex Corporation and Bird Construction Company. Arni also serves on the Boards of the Friends of the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, the Michaëlle Jean Foundation and Historica Canada. 

Arni obtained his Chartered Financial Analyst designation in 1974 and also holds Bachelor of Commerce (Honours) and Doctor of Laws (honoris causa) degrees from the University of Manitoba._


ooh. What a rock. Diamond quality all the way. I even go for his charities. Thanks everybody in this thread for this valuable headsup!


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## humble_pie

... & the icing on the cake

seems that arni thornsteinson bought something like 200,000 shares so far in 2014, evidently (see chart) more in 2013 that i didn't dig up ... i haven't seen an insider trading report this green for a long time


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## martinv

Bought some more Temple Hotels Inc. TPH today.


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## humble_pie

yea i talked myself into buying yesterday.

small, appealing company running smoothly in its niche. Did you read how, after acquiring some hotels recently in the maritimes, they noted how many are old family businesses coming up for sale soon because the original owners now wish to retire? ding! ding! shades of ACQ.


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## dubmac

humble_pie said:


> yea i talked myself into buying yesterday.


I spent some time today having a look at TPH.T. SP seems to hold steady between 5.40 - 6.20. Yield is 9.45%. PE is 572. Clearly a high yield stock. I like the fact that they have hotels in Ft Mac - I expect that to be a hot spot for some time.
I need a l'il feedback from those that hold it, I'd appreciate any info.

Did you purchase it expecting growth?....or to accumulate monthly distributions (with no growth in SP)?


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## humble_pie

black mac i think u are right, it's a yield play. But isn't that what the hostelry biz is all about? take in wayfarers overnight, charge em extra for supper & ale & stabling the horse overnight, tuppence here & a farthing there, day after day after day ... 

if the holding works out i'm planning to move it into the tfsa next january, the account has grown to a size where i'm looking to hold more conservative things such as stable hi-yields & for these i'd forego the possibility of large capital gains in the tax-free ...


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## Hawkdog

I originally bought TPH as a play on the oil sands due to its presence in Fort Mac, its great they have branched out into other markets. The SK especially, it can be impossible to get a room in Saskatoon.


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## londoncalling

Impossible and overpriced.


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## humble_pie

londoncalling said:


> Impossible and overpriced.



lol glaxo is so wonderfully transparent, squeaky clean, honourably behaved & cheaply priced?


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## martinv

dubmac said:


> Did you purchase it expecting growth?....or to accumulate monthly distributions (with no growth in SP)?


For both yield and growth. Not looking for a high flyer here, just competent management and a 5 to 10 year time horizon.


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## KaeJS

Hm...

I'm thinking I might buy into this. But I think I am going to wait for 5.65. I don't think I can justify buying at almost 5.80. I want it for the yield AND the trade.


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## londoncalling

humble_pie said:


> lol glaxo is so wonderfully transparent, squeaky clean, honourably behaved & cheaply priced?


I should clarify Humble my comment was not about Temple it was in regards to finding a hotel room in Saskatoon(where I live ) which is nearly impossible and the rates are over priced (Have you compared the rates to other cities of the same size?) IMO. As a consumer that sucks, but as a shareholder that is great! 

As GSK is concerned: Transparent? not historically speaking. Squeaky clean? definitely not. Honourably behaved? again definitely not. Cheaply priced? I think so (could go lower but I dipped in a toe anyways). This is where I am hoping there has been over reaction. Also hoping there will be changes to the board (rumoured Bank of Scotland member may be headed there. Wether this is good bad or true needs to be investigated further)

I bought INNvest reit when I knew very little about investing. At the time, I was essentially flipping a coin b/w INN and TPH. Now that I know a teeny tiny bit more than a little about investing I have spent the past while considering either picking up temple(doctrines blog lit a spark but this thread started the fire) with some of my cash position or swapping INN for TPH. So far I like what I see. The comparison to ACQ definitely peaked my interest.

Cheers


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## lostwords

KaeJS said:


> Hm...
> 
> I'm thinking I might buy into this. But I think I am going to wait for 5.65. I don't think I can justify buying at almost 5.80. I want it for the yield AND the trade.


I am on the same boat. Just waiting to get in


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## doctrine

If they're still on the acquisition warpath, they may do an equity issue soon. If you look at 2013, they raised nearly $100M through equity issues and convertible debentures. Based on their cash remaining at Q1 ($28) and subsequent acquisitions since then, they must be running low on ammo. An issuing may provide a short term buying opportunity. The good news for existing shareholders is that most of their cash is now put to work and earning money.


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## gibor365

What is current TPH AFFO payout ratio?


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## doctrine

For all of 2013, it was 76%. Q1 was higher (170%) but it is pretty obvious that was because of the poor weather in the winter. Q2 should be back on track.


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## gibor365

What do you think about RMM.UN (Retrocom Real Estate )? Similar industry, but lower beta, better fundamentals and yield.... at 52 weeks low and oversold...


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## doctrine

It's not the same industry at all in my opinion, RMM.UN is in plazas and other commercial rental real estate. TPH owns and operates hotels. TPH also has significantly higher (30-40%) operating income per share from a fundamental perspective, which is what interests me in them.


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## londoncalling

placed an order to buy TPH for tomorrow


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## humble_pie

london! thankx for explaining, who knew it was the room rate in saskatoon! 

it seemed so unlike you to speak that way about a stock. But now we're back to normal. Best wishes for temple & glaxo.


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## londoncalling

I agree. Sometimes people may have heard what they think I said but they weren't listening to what I thought I meant I told them. Or something like that. :friendly_wink:


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## Beaver101

Any difference between tph and inn.un - the latter seems to be exposed to a whole chain of hotels?


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## martinv

I try to obtain info from many sources and then stir/sift etc.
Here is some info from Morningstar showing fund and institutional ownership of TPH;

BURGUNDY CANADIAN SMALL CAP	1,902,200	4.71	0	0	2.09 31/07/2014 
BURGUNDY CANADIAN EQUITY 774,700	1.92	0	0	1.41 31/07/2014 
BURGUNDY PARTNERS EQUITY RSP	196,400	0.49	0	0	0.93 31/07/2014 
BURGUNDY FOUNDATION TRUST	167,100	0.41	0	0	0.32 31/07/2014 
iShares S&P/TSX SmallCap	49,755	0.12	64	0.13	0.15 31/07/2014 
Exemplar Yield Series L 31,300	0.08	0	0	1.97 31/07/2014 
Jov Canadian Equity Cl 28,000	0.07	0	0	3.31 30/06/2014 
BURGUNDY PENSION TRUST	26,800	0.07	0	0	0.40 31/07/2014	

Burgundy Asset Management Ltd.	6,891,200	17.14	6,891,200	New	0 31/12/2013
BlackRock Asset Management Canada Ltd	49,755	0.12	64	0.13	0.15 31/07/2014
Arrow Capital Management Inc	31,300	0.08	0	0	1.97 31/07/2014
Leon Frazer & Associates Inc 28,000	0.07	0	0	3.31 30/06/2014
Lightwater Partners Ltd 13,000	0.05	13,000	New	10.87 31/05/2013	

Of course this may not be complete and might have changed by now but I believe it is of some interest.


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## humble_pie

martinv said:


> Of course this may not be complete and might have changed by now but I believe it is of some interest.



definitely of interest. Burgundy is a new name to me but leon frazer's ryan bushell is a respected dividend analyst. Frazer has what appears to be a token position (28,000 shares) but that conservatism in a microcap would be standard in a leon frazer dividend portfolio.

on another matter, for anybody looking to get into TPH today, may i say watch out & don't let the price bid up on your starting position! there seems to be a little herdlet of cmffers developing in temple, just as a favourite herdlet developed in chemtrade.

.


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## londoncalling

Yes CMF can be a market mover/maker. :biggrin: Not only low volume CHE.UN but also low volume AM. Sold INN today. Order in for TPH may have to raise my bid. Cheers!


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## londoncalling

INN fell today to close @ 5.59. Selling on quarterly release paid off. : ) Now to get an order filled of TPH


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## gibor365

Just checked TPH 11:30am....after 2 hours of trading volume is 0 !!! Is it common for this stock?


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## HaroldCrump

It is not uncommon for small cap REITs to trade thinly.
Charts show that just in the last 1 month, there have been days when it has traded only 5K - 6K shares for the whole day.


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## HaroldCrump

I do see 5,900 traded this afternoon on the main board.
There is some trading going on in the alternative exchanges too.
See below. Perhaps your trading platform is not able to retrieve this information.


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## gibor365

yes, I can see only TSX , volume is 9.0K as per 12.50pm


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## dubmac

if you want in at around 5.60 - better take notice - price just dropped 2.5%.


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## doctrine

You've got some volume now if that's what you're looking for. Results were okay - payouts back below 100%, always important for a 9.6% yield stock, and likely could have been even better given a lot of recent acquisitions hadn't closed yet (6 acquisitions since the end of Q1, a 23% increase in size essentially given they ended Q1 at 26). Q3 likely to be very good. Their strategy of diversifying geographically really paid off, as everything outside Fort Mac was positive while Fort Mac itself was down. That is interesting, and suggests that the gas pedal may be coming off the oil sands with WTI below $100. Going to hang on.


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## gibor365

Initiated small position


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## humble_pie

LOL i was going to write that we'd be lucky if the doctrine would weigh in with his opinions on temple's financial results announced last night but here he is already (upthread) with the goods.

optimists could say Yea temple expanded & diversified their hotel chain across canada in the nick of time.

pessimists could say Ouch it's downtime for hotel profits in fort mac while the pipeline issues get resolved.

from temple's financial news release yesterday:

_Operating income increased by $1.27 million or 9% during Q2-2014, compared to Q2-2013, comprised of a $2.81 million increase in operating from "new hotel properties" (eight hotels acquired during 2013 and two hotels acquired in Q2-2014) and a $1.54 million decrease in operating income from the "same property" portfolio. The decrease in operating income from the same property portfolio is mainly due to a decrease in occupancy levels and reflects the continuation of a lower demand hotel market in Fort McMurray as a result of what is expected to be a temporary slowdown in oil sands developments. Operating income increased by $3.76 million in Q2-2014, compared to Q1-2014.

_


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## HaroldCrump

Most stocks providing services of some form or another in the oil sands sector are getting clobbered.
Look at what happened to Horizon North Logistics (HNL) last week, and to Badger Daylighting (BAD) this week.
In the case of HNL, something else may be afoot...


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## martinv

Bought some more today @5.60. Still going down but pleased enough with the 5.60 figure. "Be greedy when others are fearful" or something like that.


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## KaeJS

martinv said:


> Bought some more today @5.60. Still going down but pleased enough with the 5.60 figure. "Be greedy when others are fearful" or something like that.


I have an order for 5.60.
I have not yet been filled.

Good job, martinv.


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## gibor365

KaeJS said:


> I have an order for 5.60.
> I have not yet been filled.
> 
> Good job, martinv.


My order filled at $5.61 , if until EOD it will drop more, will buy more as I all my trades for one stock will result in one trading fee


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## KaeJS

gibor said:


> My order filled at $5.61 , if until EOD it will drop more, will buy more as I all my trades for one stock will result in one trading fee


Lucky you.
Mine would cost multiple fees. Are you with CIBC?


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## gibor365

KaeJS said:


> Lucky you.
> Mine would cost multiple fees. Are you with CIBC?


Yeap KaeJS, with CIBC, pay 6.95 if I even buy/sell same stock even 10 times during the say  however, the truth is , 3 is the maximum buys of 1 stock I did (BBD.B) - like averaging down on the same day  Should be perfect for you if you like swing trading


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## KaeJS

I know... I love CIBC for that reason. That's why I had a good guess. :wink:

I am with Questrade, so I would have to pay extra. I don't really want to change my order from $5.60, but at the same time, I don't think it will hit $5.60 again today.

We will see.

Maybe with some luck it will come back down to $5.60, or with tomorrow being a Friday and the negative news still lingering, we could see another 1% drop tomorrow in stock price.

Let's see what happens. Current Bid/Ask is 5.63/5.64


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## gibor365

My original bid was also for 5.60, but when I checked and saw that like 300 bids for 5.60 and just 2 asks for 5.61, decided to buy 1st trenche at 5.61


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## KaeJS

That was a great call, gibor. :encouragement:


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## KaeJS

I just got filled at my original $5.60 order. :biggrin:


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## londoncalling

Also filled today at 5.70 and 5.61. Already full position and averaged down... Seems to be a CMF holding. Cheers.


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## liquidfinance

Small holding filled at $5.63. I'm sure that I should have done a little more research but if management is endorsed by Humble and Doctrine seems ok with them then that's enough of a buy for me. 

Good luck all.


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## Gabs

Have a small position looks like I should have bought more yesterday - congrats to all who went in on the dip


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## lostwords

Finally take up a small position at $5.63. I was trying to get in at $5.75 a few days ago but it wouldn't budge.


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## gibor365

TPH sharehiolders.... are you DRIPing stock? I didn't intend to DRIP, but noticed that they offer DRIP 5% discount....


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## 604_Snooze

Did you guys have this in your TFSA?


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## GOB

For me it's not a large enough holding to justify the added headache of ACB tracking with a DRIP. 5% discount is attractive though.


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## Jon_Snow

Glad I stuck with INN.UN. :biggrin:


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## mrPPincer

It's 4% not 5 according to their site,
http://www.treit.ca/drip.asp


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## gibor365

GOB said:


> For me it's not a large enough holding to justify the added headache of ACB tracking with a DRIP. 5% discount is attractive though.


 I don't care about ACB as hold it in RRSP


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## GOB

Then go for it!

I avoid putting Canadian dividend paying stocks in my RRSP or TFSA because you lose the benefit of the tax-advantaged dividend. Much better to put US stocks, bonds or REITs in there, which have no tax benefits.


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## gibor365

"Then go for it!" - Already went  Call yesterday and setup DRIP

GOB, we have only 6 registered accounts and we have enough contribution room to keep desired allocation equities vs cash .... so I don't see sense (for us) to have non-reg account


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## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> Call yesterday and setup DRIP


And you'll receive the discount from your particular broker [I mean they will honour it], but for those that may be buying just to DRIP/get the discount, you should first check with your broker, as not all seem to do same.

Btw *gibor*, did u find time to clear your inbox yet? [Thanks for the freebie info. btw, but yes, I had been aware for several years, in fact.]


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## blin10

you people need to be more careful with buying companies like this.. I often see somebody recommends something and people pile on... this company is paying out almost 10% divi, and has negative earnings per share, with a markets cap around 230mill


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## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> Btw *gibor*, did u find time to clear your inbox yet? [Thanks for the freebie info. btw, but yes, I had been aware for several years, in fact.]


jUST DID


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## Beaver101

blin10 said:


> you people need to be more careful with buying companies like this.. I often see somebody recommends something and people pile on... this company is paying out almost 10% divi, and has negative earnings per share, with a markets cap around 230mill


  ... blin, why don't you just tell it like it is ... pumpies and dumpies here ... :barbershop_quartet_


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## GOB

blin10 said:


> you people need to be more careful with buying companies like this.. I often see somebody recommends something and people pile on... this company is paying out almost 10% divi, and has negative earnings per share, with a markets cap around 230mill


And they are expanding, seem to be well managed and have a P/B of around 1.6. I'll take my chances on this.


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## blin10

GOB said:


> And they are expanding, seem to be well managed and have a P/B of around 1.6. I'll take my chances on this.


negative earning per share with 10% dividend is well managed? good luck


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## humble_pie

blin the only other 2 stocks that have attracted a sustained buzz here on cmf forum were ACQ & CHE.UN.

both of these were fabulous runaway successes that delivered enormous wealth to many happy & delighted forum members, who shared their knowledge across several years.

in the case of ACQ (whose shares i've never owned), the forum enjoyed the benefits of views from a number of expert members.

you'd want to keep in mind who-all is analyzing winning microcaps. All the parties discussing ACQ & chemtrade had spotless, long-term, hi-quality reputations for financial savvy here on cmf forum.

it's the tiny number of newcomers with no rep or history on cmf who occasionally show up here, then start pushing a one-sided story about an unheard-of stock whose price has already gone to the moon, who are the true pumpsters.

tell-tale indicators are 1) charts showing that the target stock has already peaked or is peaking; & 2) such pumpsters are unable to discuss negative aspects in any rational manner, but instead turn vitriolic with rage when questioned.

par contre, a principal spokesperson who has tended to favour ACQ went on record here recently as saying - when the share price weakened - how he welcomes pro-and-con discussion, including the airing out of negative concerns. This kind of open-mindedness, this kind of impartial seeking for truth, is a sign of true strength in an analyst.

overall, historically in cmf forum there have been astonishingly few pumpster dumpsters. I'm not going to mention them. They were pretty despicable. One was real funny, though. It was an american male who thought he'd try to throw us off the track by calling himself Lucy. Usually one can smell these guys quite easily.


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## doctrine

Well, to each their own, but I like that they've paid dividends non-stop since the IPO in 2006, are paying 35% more dividends than just three years ago and have a _lot_ of unrealized capital gains (nearly as much as their market cap - value investors, take note). Their average cap rate is double that of the larger REIT market. A lower Canadian dollar, which is being encouraged by the BoC and GoC, is very positive for TPH. Macro and micro trends are lining up well. They could also be a takeover target - this is a hotel company. 

You might say "Well, with all that good news, why isn't it trading higher?" - it has been trading higher; 70% return over the last 3 years, and closer to 200% if you go back 4 years.

I don't think it will see ACQ-like gains, but it might see CHE.UN-like gains. Really, this is a steal under $6 in my opinion - even $8 would be fair.


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## GOB

blin10 said:


> negative earning per share with 10% dividend is well managed? good luck


Your problem is that you are only looking at yield and EPS on their own, and are not even considering why they are what they are. Doctrine has laid out a pretty convincing case for good future prospects, and more importantly for me, an excellent current valuation regardless of what the EPS is at this moment.


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## humble_pie

doctrine said:


> ... I don't think it [TPH] will see ACQ-like gains, but it might see CHE.UN-like gains. Really, this is a steal under $6 in my opinion - even $8 would be fair.



you're quite right ... i didn't mean to suggest in any way that ACQ & chemtrade are comparable as stocks either to each other or to temple reit. All 3 are very different animals.

i was only seeking to address a couple of accusations upthread that illegal pumpers are at work on TPH here in cmf forum. I mentioned the 2 successful stocks as examples of benefits that had already been shared by well-known forum members with impeccable long-term rep.

i like to give credit where credit is due so - just as ACQ was actually pioneered by optsy eagle (although in another forum i believe) (someone repeated optsy's ideas to launch the ACQ thread here in cmf) - & just as chemtrade was launched by liquidfinance - here we will have lostwords to thank if TPH thrives.


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## dogpower

I appreciate the counter arguments that people are offering regarding this stock. I've been following this stock as well and have been thinking of picking up some shares.


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## mrPPincer

TPH has been bouncing around $5.60 all day today.

I sold my riocan in my non-registered and bought slightly less, but still enough to drip, in the TFSA 3 weeks ago (@26.85 & 26.78 so trading costs were covered by the difference).
I harvested some of the dripped divies with the intention of diversifying into a little TPH.

Since then I've had a bid in for a tiny position (a fraction of a percent of my portfolio) in TPH, & it just kicked in today at $5.60.

I'm a little late to the party, missed one dividend of $0.045, but them's the breaks 

It's in the TFSA because I didn't want to keep track of all the drips for such a small amount.
Speaking of which, I like that 4% discount (I have enough to drip 2 shares).


----------



## MrCarter

*Temple*

Built a position in TFSA over the last few months, 

Curious what the experts (doctrine, humble) think about the declining US Dollar helping their hotels moving forward?


----------



## Butters

Hey,
Is the drip discount 4% or 5?

Can someone help me with this drip example


TPH is at 5.54

A 8.84% yield

Let's say you do a full drip
If you held this for a year, and let's say it stayed flat for a whole year at 5.54$/share

Would you be up 8.84%(yield) plus the 4% discount for a "total share stock" profit of 12.84%??

So let's say 1000 shares now you have 1128.4 shares after a year?
Or it would actually be slightly more because each month you'd start dripping more(compound)

With royal bank DI is there any fee to set up a full drip?

How about a fee with synthetic. 



The initial paperwork and costs about drip I still don't understand. 


Thanks in advance for the input, I will also accept private messages on this complicated subject!


----------



## banjopete

SheaButters said:


> Hey,
> Is the drip discount 4% or 5?
> 
> Can someone help me with this drip example
> 
> 
> TPH is at 5.54
> 
> A 8.84% yield
> 
> Let's say you do a full drip
> If you held this for a year, and let's say it stayed flat for a whole year at 5.54$/share
> 
> Would you be up 8.84%(yield) plus the 4% discount for a "total share stock" profit of 12.84%??
> 
> So let's say 1000 shares now you have 1128.4 shares after a year?
> Or it would actually be slightly more because each month you'd start dripping more(compound)
> 
> With royal bank DI is there any fee to set up a full drip?
> 
> How about a fee with synthetic.
> 
> 
> 
> The initial paperwork and costs about drip I still don't understand.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for the input, I will also accept private messages on this complicated subject!


I can't speak for RBC DI but typically with the banks there is no fee to start a synthetic drip you merely need a share of the company you wish to drip. Once the dividends paid are enough to purchase a whole share, it'll occur automatically for you, if the dividends you receive are less than that amount it will go to your cash holdings. The full drips are definitely more work to get started with, and require you to figure out how the systems work but there are many resources to help with that but no real substitute for just diving in and seeing for yourself. It's an old school system though so be forewarned.


Sorry for the divergence, TPH is getting cheaper and cheaper, just curious if there is any press for it. It seems like it's flying well below any radars.


----------



## mrPPincer

gibor said:


> My order filled at $5.61 , if until EOD it will drop more, will buy more as I all my trades for one stock will result in one trading fee


Hey gibor, you might wanna double-check your records on that.
I just finished doing multiple trades, five in total, in buying two stocks today and noticed that CIBC IE did charge the $6.95 commish on each one.

I then phoned in and the agent said that they have changed the policy because too many people were day trading too much.
They will charge the one commish if the order is for one large block of shares and it gets filled in parts throughout the day, but not for separate orders any more.

He did talk to his supervisor and they will do a one-time reversal on the 3 extra fees.


----------



## gibor365

Too bad if they did it... i didn't buy/sell same stock same day for some time, but before , when you buy more than once , they will charge 6.95 for every trade, but the next day were removing other fees except one...


----------



## gibor365

gibor said:


> Too bad if they did it... i didn't buy/sell same stock same day for some time, but before , when you buy more than once , they will charge 6.95 for every trade, but the next day were removing other fees except one...


btw, had limit order 4.40 and missed by 1 cent


----------



## Synergy

gibor said:


> btw, had limit order 4.40 and missed by 1 cent


I think you meant $5.40?


----------



## KaeJS

I think he meant $5.40.

I am considering adding to my position in the 30's if it gets there. The 30's seems to be a support line if you look at the 1 year chart.


----------



## gibor365

Synergy said:


> I think you meant $5.40?


yes


----------



## martinv

I had a limit order today for 5.40 as well but missed by one cent.


----------



## liquidfinance

KaeJS said:


> I think he meant $5.40.
> 
> I am considering adding to my position in the 30's if it gets there. The 30's seems to be a support line if you look at the 1 year chart.



I need to learn to be more patient. I pulled the trigger when really I knew I should have held back.


----------



## KaeJS

^ You'll be alright.

Keep in mind that TPH Paid out dividends today for those people who were shareholders of record on August 31!


----------



## gibor365

liquidfinance said:


> I need to learn to be more patient. I pulled the trigger when really I knew I should have held back.


you never know when you should pull trigger  some stocks I bought in right times, but some ... didn't pull the trigger, missed couple of cents for my limit buys for MG, CKI, CSE and missed huge gains


----------



## mrPPincer

BTW, kinda offtopic, but I mentioned upthread that I did 5 purchases w CIBC IE today; they were all of US-traded securities in US$ from my CAD$ TFSA, all at different times, but the forex rate on each of the 5 was precisely 1.105.

The US$ today closed at C$1.1050!!
gotta love CIBC IE, they did not charge me anything for the conversion!

What a refreshing break from the big green, I'm really glad i made the move, for that reason as well as the reduced commision from $9.99 (TD) to $6.95 (CIBC).


----------



## gibor365

mrPPincer said:


> BTW, kinda offtopic, but I mentioned upthread that I did 5 purchases w CIBC IE today; they were all of US-traded securities in US$ from my CAD$ TFSA, all at different times, but the forex rate on each of the 5 was precisely 1.105.
> 
> The US$ today closed at C$1.1050!!
> gotta love CIBC IE, they did not charge me anything for the conversion!
> 
> What a refreshing break from the big green, I'm really glad i made the move, for that reason as well as the reduced commision from $9.99 (TD) to $6.95 (CIBC).


Completely agree  Had same feeling when switched to CIBC my last account, but like holding TD stock, they charge too much and it's good for TD profit and dividends..... I noticed big difference in FX rate between TD and CIBC about 3 years ago when bought 2 US stocks same day in CIBC and TD , published it on this forum, but HP as a big TD supporter started bullshiting me, than I thought she is smart, so didn't switch account to CIBC right away


----------



## Avaron

2% drop today on tph and has dropped some the last few days but then so has the markets, lol, hope this one stays ok, but luckily don't have a lot of money in it as most of my cash is in registered accounts in index etfs while I got a couple of individual stocks in the non registered side of things.


----------



## cashinstinct

Avaron said:


> 2% drop today on tph.


Reits are dropping in general for the last few days, simply look at XRE, ZRE or VRE REITs index ETFS.

I am not invested in REITS yet, might buy some this fall (it's part of my allocation plan, but I never did buy yet... laziness/lack of attention to portfolio).

Yield is now 10% on Temple ($0.045 monthly... so should be $0.54 annually distribution on $5.37 price)... I don't want to chase yield though, but it's certainly interesting.


----------



## doctrine

Added 650 shares @ $5.30. Expecting a good Q3, a full quarter with a lot of new acquisitions reporting.. I'm intrigued by the recent performance of HLC. Something like that could happen here..if not, happy to keep collecting.


----------



## gibor365

doctrine said:


> Added 650 shares @ $5.30. Expecting a good Q3, a full quarter with a lot of new acquisitions reporting.. I'm intrigued by the recent performance of HLC. Something like that could happen here..if not, happy to keep collecting.


I also expect ... added @ $5.29 
P.S> doctrine, I miss your blog


----------



## liquidfinance

I'm not adding just yet but as this is a small cap stock and so I expect it to have a certain degree of volatility. Look at google and you see reported negative earning. You see a yield of 10%

A yield of 10% a many will think it can not be sustained and the negative earnings will reinforce that view. Then we have had the general selling pressure in REITS the past few days.


----------



## gibor365

liquidfinance said:


> I'm not adding just yet but as this is a small cap stock and so I expect it to have a certain degree of volatility. Look at google and you see reported negative earning. You see a yield of 10%
> 
> A yield of 10% a many will think it can not be sustained and the negative earnings will reinforce that view. Then we have had the general selling pressure in REITS the past few days.


I doubt that retail investors have huge influence on the stock.... mostly institutions who doesn't look just on google finance front page


----------



## robfordlives

Someone mentioned that weather played a part in the relatively poor Q2. I have abit of an issue with that as an explanation. The work in Fort Mac does not stop even if it is -50 up there. It's not like it's a tourist destination up there and is weather dependent. Yes I know they have other locations...but again, same concern with Saskatchewan properties - reason vacancy rates are so low in Saskatchewan is work related, nothing to do with weather good or bad. As someone else noted, Holloway had a better quarter and dealt with the same weather

Also someone mentioned the dropping US $ was good for the hotel industry in Canada. Again...yes agree if it is tourist based but this would not be a help for operations in Fort Mac. Travel would not be affected on multi billion $ projects due to a few cents drop in the dollar.


----------



## martinv

Added today @ 5.36.missed yesterday @5.30 but pleased enough.


----------



## Jon_Snow

Just sold my 1000 shares of INN.UN (30% profit).

Tell me again why I should consider TPH? Looks like the proverbial falling knife... but that 10% dividend. Will re-read thread now. Been selling some winners and about to do some shopping.


----------



## Synergy

Jon_Snow said:


> Looks like the proverbial falling knife


That's why I'm on the sidelines and watching from a distance. I can't pull the trigger on this one. Won't they cut that dividend?


----------



## robfordlives

Someone earlier in thread mentioned the cold weather affecting their Q1 results negatively. How would that be the case when they are primarily in Fort Mac and Saskatchewan which is driven by industry demand and not tourist demand. Multi million/billion dollar projects are not delayed due to 'cold weather'. That excuse for poor results seems dubious. Did not affect Holloway and they went through the same winter.

Someone else mentioned the low CDN $ being of benefit. Sure....if demand was primarily tourist driven....but again $ has minimal impact on industry driven demand.


----------



## cashinstinct

Falling more than other REITS.

Now around $5.11.

I have no REITS in my portfolio, so I am watching Reits falling and choosing an entry point.


----------



## Butters

It was on BNN Friday
The guy strictly looked at the chart, noticed it hit a 52 week low and said "run away"

The stock has been beat up

What we need is some good news

And I'm sticking with it hoping it's coming.

When do they report their next quarter results?


----------



## Jon_Snow

Very glad I didn't bite on this one. Yikes.


----------



## doctrine

I see some interesting intra-day action here. I wasn't watching, but $5.05 has my eyebrow raised. I am definitely considering adding another bite, especially if it drops below $5. Q3 report isn't for another 5-6 weeks likely. There is no bad news for this company, and a falling Canadian dollar is positive, as is record heavy oil prices in Alberta.


----------



## Gabs

On Sept 26th, Bill Carrigan on bnn took a swipe at the stock telling folks to run away. So that might of encouraged some folks to sell. Holding and looking forward to Q3.


----------



## liquidfinance

Yeah. I'm holding on. I am considering adding although I will likely wait until the results are out. 

What was the basis behind the run away remarks from Bill Carrigan? Any fundamentals or just the ugly chart?


----------



## al42

Technicals... Here's the gist of it.

Bill Carrigan 

You have a base in 2010, then a run up and then flat to now. He does not want the recent low to be violated. He would run away.


----------



## liquidfinance

al42 said:


> Technicals... Here's the gist of it.
> 
> Bill Carrigan
> 
> You have a base in 2010, then a run up and then flat to now. He does not want the recent low to be violated. He would run away.



Thanks Al


----------



## HaroldCrump

I don't have a position in this, but regarding negative news, won't the recent threats by Petronas & Statoil to cancel projects/investments affect the future prospects of this company?
Several large capex projects in the oil sands have already been put on hold, large energy companies are making noises about cutting back their capex in that region, if either Petronas or Statoil pull the plug, other large investors might follow suit.

All of that will surely affect the occupancy rates of these hotels, B&Bs, extended stays, etc. that this company owns, no?


----------



## humble_pie

HaroldCrump said:


> All of that will surely affect the occupancy rates of these hotels, B&Bs, extended stays, etc. that this company owns, no?



i am thinking of getting one of those chinese built-to-the-floor peasant beds called a kang. So there wouldn't be any way to hide underneath.

evidently kangs are cast iron & have a small stove somewhere in their depths.

during the day, one rolls up one's bedroll & fires up the kang. It's used for cooking & heating the tiny one-room house, which is all that one can afford after dow hits 1000.

at night the coals will have died down to low embers so the farther end of the kang is pleasantly warm for sleeping on.

one could have egg-laying hens, a green vegetable garden with swiss chard, an apple tree, a pear tree, even a goat on a thatched roof if one were sufficiently ambitious. Pah. Who needs stocks.


----------



## doctrine

IMO, TPH doesn't need growth to sustain itself. It will be just fine with the economy trucking along as it is. 2-3% growth is gravy. Some projects coming off Alberta might mean 3.5% growth instead of 4.0% growth. Alberta heavy oil spot prices closed last week 28% USD higher than a year ago. Doesn't seem to me to be a major concern. Q3 will tell all though. But do you really think everyone is going to pull out of Alberta with WCS at 28% higher levels, and news like Suncor shipping oil to Europe via rail to the St. Lawerence?


----------



## HaroldCrump

humble_pie said:


> i am thinking of getting one of those chinese built-to-the-floor peasant beds called a kang. So there wouldn't be any way to hide underneath.


That would leave no room to store the guns & ammo.
You'd need those for sure...to protect the hens & the goat ;o)


----------



## Butters

Well. 5 weeks to wait then

Seems like this will be dropping more on that 30 second technical review by some guy who hasn't looked at any fundamentals. 


If it goes to 4.40 or so in the next 3-4 weeks and has no bad news I will triple my position.

If not I'll hold out for a year and collect my dividend and be ahead 


I think if it hits a 10% yield more people will sell. 
Ahh you're right liquid. .0.045 x 12 
Globe and mail app has it at 9.68
What are your thoughts on it? Wait 5 weeks for some news?


----------



## liquidfinance

The yield is currently 10.89%


----------



## Synergy

liquidfinance said:


> The yield is currently 10.89%


Closed at 10.95%. Perhaps investors are getting concerned over a dividend cut and this keeps driving the stock lower?


----------



## londoncalling

Fell over 4% today. Ouch. Still holding. Deciding on wether or not to add


----------



## lostwords

londoncalling said:


> Fell over 4% today. Ouch. Still holding. Deciding on wether or not to add


same here.. it dropped 12% since my last purchased.


----------



## humble_pie

i am sorry if there are some short-term flippers on here because i'm thinking they won't be happy.

i'm thinking that some data has been leaking out to the effect that room occupancy has been down & earnings could disappoint.

there is the dilution effect of the share offering last december/13. Just under 10 million new shares were issued, raising some $55M for the company, which they used to buy 6 new hotels in central & eastern canada plus 2 in their traditional stomping grounds of northwestern canada.

dividends on those extra 10 million new shares have to be paid out. Meanwhile one or more of those hotels is under long-term renovation & room occupancy will be impaired for 3 years. The other 7 would have likely needed some kind of occupancy-reducing refurbishment.

bref, it could be as long as a couple of years before earnings from the 8 acquisitions show up, assuming tourist & travel conditions remain stable.

here are the hotel locations by province: BC 1; AB 13 with 8 in fort mac; SK 4; MB 1; ON 7; NS 3; NW territories 2. That is a proportion of just under 30% in the northern cities of fort Mac & yellowknife.

i have a long time frame for investments, so i for one don't mind waiting a couple of years to see results from the expansion. The dividend makes the waiting tolerable imho.

however i'm not planning to buy more shares, not even on any further drop, & i can well understand that some might be looking to move out after only a few weeks.

advienne que pourra! good luck to everybody


----------



## Canuck

lostwords said:


> same here.. it dropped 12% since my last purchased.


same, bought in Aug for $5.64


----------



## Butters

It's under small caps to watch today

Temple Hotels Inc. announces intention to internalize management
Press release from CNW Group
Wednesday, October 01, 2014


----------



## bmoney

I own at much higher levels than today, they have a nice portfolio of properties, but something stinks. The stock has been dropping precipitously for the last few weeks with no news. The largest institutional holder is Burgundy, I think they held around 400k-500k shares. With such high volume of late I'm wondering if someone is shorting, there aren't enough institutional holders to explain the trading volume.


----------



## dubmac

humble_pie said:


> i have a long time frame for investments, so i for one don't mind waiting a couple of years to see results from the expansion. The dividend makes the waiting tolerable imho.


me too...I'm a little disppointed, but heck - it's the stock market! I'm holding..& not adding. I'll leave this one alone and let time roll on.


----------



## Hawkdog

I picked up 500 more shares on Friday (another 22 bucks in divis), this is way oversold. Great candidate for a nice bounce back -


----------



## the_apprentice

32 shares @4.79. I had the extra cash sitting in my RRSP's from dividends, thought I'd make use of it.


----------



## cashinstinct

the_apprentice said:


> 32 shares @4.79. I had the extra cash sitting in my RRSP's from dividends, thought I'd make use of it.


I hope you don't pay too much commission on each trade!


----------



## mrPPincer

Even if the_apprentice paid $10 in trading costs, the overall cost was still only about $5.1 per share, or if with CIBC DI's $6.95/trade it works out to $5 per share.


----------



## the_apprentice

I have a few shares that were DRIP'd and I sold my position while the dividend was in limbo. Thought I'd add to my total monthly dividends. Commission was indeed $9.95.

I'm sure the more senior members are reading this and shaking their heads.


----------



## cashinstinct

Still watching on the sidelines for this stock. $4.37 this morning. 52 week low now $4.34...

If they can keep monthly dividend steady, yield is 12.36% now...


----------



## Edgar

cashinstinct said:


> Still watching on the sidelines for this stock. $4.37 this morning. 52 week low now $4.34...
> 
> If they can keep monthly dividend steady, yield is 12.36% now...


It's worth noting that 25% of the property is in Fort McMurray, so if this oil scare is legitimate, or has some sort of effect on oil production, the REIT could go down even further.


----------



## bmoney

Edgar said:


> It's worth noting that 25% of the property is in Fort McMurray, so if this oil scare is legitimate, or has some sort of effect on oil production, the REIT could go down even further.


It's worth noting there has been massive insider buying (public market buys) recently from various company directors.


----------



## londoncalling

I am not an insider but I bought more today @ 4.28. have to see why the massive drop. most likely I am a little early on my fall purchases. may have get more cash in the equity account


----------



## Hawkdog

I bought a little early but have been dripping for awhile now. Good sign - re insider buying

Insidernews ‏@Canadianinsider 2m2 minutes ago
Tumbling Temple Hotels had the most CEO public market buy filings yesterday. Stock is up 1.7% right now: http://stks.co/d17n9 $TPH.CA


----------



## bmoney

I did a bit of research on the CEO; he runs a REIT called Huntingdon Capital which was acquired by Slate Properties in August this year for about 20% premium to the stock price at the time.


----------



## Edgar

bmoney said:


> It's worth noting there has been massive insider buying (public market buys) recently from various company directors.


Noted 

Also, is there a media source for this. I feel like it is something I should read.


----------



## bmoney

Edgar said:


> Noted
> 
> Also, is there a media source for this. I feel like it is something I should read.


I use TDW and they have a service called INK that publishes insider transactions for nearly every stock on a regular daily basis.


----------



## martinv

Order filled @ 4.36. Averaging down......way down. Kind of scary buying in this market especially when the mind isn't that sharp in the heat of Baja!


----------



## Jon_Snow

martinv said:


> Order filled @ 4.36. Averaging down......way down. Kind of scary buying in this market especially when the mind isn't that sharp in the heat of Baja!


I find it's not the heat but the tequila... Or maybe it's the combination of both! I will be in the Baja in a matter of a few weeks!


----------



## bmoney

I doubled down on TPH today, I was going to wait until earnings, but I don't think Arni would spend 120k of his own money to acquire more shares if he knew they were going to miss this quarter. The saga continues...


----------



## mrPPincer

I doubled down today too. 
Still a very small position for me; the least I have in any individual stock. I could add a little more if it drops significantly more but today's sale made me happy.
Premarket bid was at $4.14 so I matched that and went to work. Got a partial fill at 9:35 AM at the current all-time low.


----------



## doctrine

For what it's worth, I'm holding on to all of my shares. I don't think the dividend is going anywhere, and there's no reason to think Q3 is going to be off track either, although we'll find out in 3-4 weeks for sure.


----------



## Butters

bmoney said:


> I doubled down on TPH today, I was going to wait until earnings, but I don't think Arni would spend 120k of his own money to acquire more shares if he knew they were going to miss this quarter. The saga continues...



I think he spent more than that, 60,000 shares that site says

but totally agree with you!!! anything under 5 bucks still a discount!


----------



## bmoney

Does anyone want to guess at why Arni keeps loading up on shares? TPH recently annoucned the internalization of the property management, the current property management services are being provided by Arni's other company Shelter Properties which if I recall correctly they charge 1-1.5% of revenue. Why would Arni cut himself out of the loop? Thinking out loud here, but if I were looking to sell TPH down the road I would want to ensure the company was turnkey for the buyer. Building internal management distances Arni from the on-going operations and reduces cost. Thoughts?


----------



## martinv

If I have this correct, earnings release today?


----------



## al42

martinv said:


> If I have this correct, earnings release today?


Q3

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/news-sources/?date=+20141110&archive=cnw&slug=C4397


----------



## bmoney

Another crappy quarter, 2 cents loss, big decrease on same hotel properties - yes mostly Fort Mac. Not sure how the dividend will be sustainable. 4 new hotels acquired, management is pushing off profit expectations to 2015 when the acquistions can begin to materially add to the bottom line. 

How much do you trust Arni?


----------



## bmoney

Down 8% what a dog, this will be dead money for awhile.


----------



## doctrine

It looks like the 8 Fort McMurray hotels accounted for most of the bad results - occupancy down to 62% from 83% a year ago.


----------



## lostwords

I got in at $5.65.. sigh...


----------



## bmoney

This company stinks, and is starting to look like a one trick pony. A dive in occupancy of one region that represents 20% of the hotel portfolio should not be driving earnings negative for 2 quarters, that means their recent acquisitions are not very profitable; despite the growth they cannot make up the shortfall. All we can hope for is that Fort Mac picks up (not likely soon) or that the acquisitions begin to bear fruit. Either way I'm not hopeful they can maintain the dividend quarter after negative quarter. I'm not thrilled management gives practically zero guidance in the MDA, they hadn't even posted the financial results on the website had to go to sedar.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

I don't own this stock because I am a little skeptical when it comes to stocks with high paying yields.
So what is everyone hoping for with this stock? That it soars? Keeps high yield? Not sure I understand this company....they keep acquiring hotels but no profits....?


----------



## GOB

The flip side of it is how much further below 62% can/will occupancy go? Their new acquisitions seem to have the best occupancy rates of their portfolio, so that could be a good sign. Their major renovation at Saskatoon Inn is pretty much complete and that also affected occupancy rates significantly.

Still a lot of question marks and it does hinge too much on Fort Mac, but I wouldn't call this company dead just yet.


----------



## bmoney

They were doing fine then hit a rough patch with a bad quarter earlier this year, a bear market in energy was not on the radar. Some of us felt the market over reacted, there is also huge insider buying and juicy yield. The hope was business would normalize and with all the acquisitions it would start to increase free cash flow and we get paid to wait; so far it hasnt panned out entirely that way. I can only surmise that management is trying to grow their way out of the problem, but they're keeping their lips sealed.


----------



## londoncalling

GOB said:


> The flip side of it is how much further below 62% can/will occupancy go? Their new acquisitions seem to have the best occupancy rates of their portfolio, so that could be a good sign. Their major renovation at Saskatoon Inn is pretty much complete and that also affected occupancy rates significantly.
> 
> Still a lot of question marks and it does hinge too much on Fort Mac, but I wouldn't call this company dead just yet.



I saw traffic at the Saskatoon in take a major hit during the renos. Several hotels are being built near the airport and on the outskirts of the city but getting a room is at least a year away for most of them. Renos have a quicker turnaround time. Hotel rates in Saskatchewan are high margin due to lack of hotels. I do expect traffic in Fort Mac to taper as oil prices fall. I do know some people that work in Fort Mac and so far the labour force has not taken as big a hit, if any, as the price of oil. Not sure how long the delay is for decreased production following decreased price. Don't like the 8% drop in share price. I hope they don't axe the divvy or my switch from INNvest to Temple will be a bad move.


----------



## bmoney

Hey Doctrine, curious what your thoughts are...


----------



## blin10

just as I thought this company will be in a toilet... it will take a while to sort everything out... why would anybody buy this when there are a dozen of high quality reits available (like rei, hr, etc)


----------



## bmoney

blin10 said:


> just as I thought this company will be in a toilet... it will take a while to sort everything out... why would anybody buy this when there are a dozen of high quality reits available (like rei, hr, etc)


Well, I'm fine with being wrong sometimes you can't pick the winning horse all the time. It just kills me to see a 25% loss on an investment I've held for probably 2-3 months, and practically zero visability. I've never held a stock with such poor performance during a bull market. COS I'm down maybe 9% net of dividends this year, all my other holdings are nicely in the black.


----------



## GOB

blin10 said:


> just as I thought this company will be in a toilet... it will take a while to sort everything out... why would anybody buy this when there are a dozen of high quality reits available (like rei, hr, etc)


Because there was (and still is) a higher yield and higher growth potential. Not everything works out, and the story isn't over quite yet. You've been wrong on a few stocks yourself. 

I have some stable REIT holdings as well. This was more of a speculative play with small money for me. So far it hasn't worked out...oh well.


----------



## doctrine

I'm still holding my shares, although clearly the market disagrees with me. TPH's properties are carried on the books at substantial discounts to market value - liquidation value is well in excess of $7 a share, maybe even as high as $9. I guess we'll see where it goes.


----------



## GOB

Does that value per share include the recent share dilution?


----------



## doctrine

Yes - their last major issue was 11 months ago, not that recent really. It did take them 6 months to deploy all the cash, which did hurt per share results throughout the year.


----------



## GOB

Good to know - thanks. I feel okay holding this.


----------



## PuckiTwo

- Too many fingers in the pie! Shelter Canadian Properties, Temple Hotels, Atlific Hotels Ltd., Ocean Properties Ltd. and former and changed Centennial Hotels. Temple holds 3 hotels in Nova Scotia, all in Halifax, all former Centennial (one of the directors is from Centennial). 
- Accommodation occupancy rates for Halifax: YTD 62%, July 69%, Aug 74%, Sep 75%. Don't have the figures from the other provinces yet. 
- If you can't make money in high season you probably missed the boat
- Except for the Fort McMurray properties of which I don't know anything, there should be still a good month of October/maybe part of November (convention business), maybe Christmas and then Canada tourism goes into a deep freeze until March/April). 
- Atlific manages quite a lot of hotels in Canada but on a comparative basis prices are high (that is wholesale prices)
- Interesting that there is no Quebec property in their portfolio, wonder what that means


----------



## PuckiTwo

Forgot something in my post 165: the Hiltons and Holiday Inns and Radissons and Days Inns etc. that give their name to the different properties in the portfolio also want some of the pie. So, you have two, three, four, five? layers of owners-propertymanagers-marketing-companies, etc. that all want to earn from the one hotel listed. That CAN be done - but only in locations in which high prices are acceptable. Many of these hotels aren't.


----------



## eddyo

I don't see any dividend info on their website for October. Is it because it hasn't been updated yet or because there isn't one??


----------



## PuckiTwo

eddyo said:


> I don't see any dividend info on their website for October. Is it because it hasn't been updated yet or because there isn't one??


If you go on their website into Press Releases, then under "Current Press Releases, 2nd from top is as of Oct 20, 2014 "Temple Hotels Inc. Announces October 2014 Monthly Dividend"


----------



## yyz

I don't know if I remember a dividend being "paid" on a Saturday before which they say is going to happen this month.


----------



## bmoney

doctrine said:


> I'm still holding my shares, although clearly the market disagrees with me. TPH's properties are carried on the books at substantial discounts to market value - liquidation value is well in excess of $7 a share, maybe even as high as $9. I guess we'll see where it goes.


I suspect the properties are carried at lower than FMV because TPH has been depreciating the buildings to reduce their tax liability. Many of these acquisitions are fairly recent and occupancy rates in the same property portfolio are down, that does not lend to increases in fair value. Were the properties sold, I would imagine there will be a large CCA recapture and capital gains taxes. I doubt the breakup value is $7-$9 a share, the market is not so kind as to offer this opportunity at 50 cents on the dollar; I would bet Arni would sooner take the company private if that were the case.


----------



## eddyo

PuckiTwo said:


> If you go on their website into Press Releases, then under "Current Press Releases, 2nd from top is as of Oct 20, 2014 "Temple Hotels Inc. Announces October 2014 Monthly Dividend"


Got it, thanks.


----------



## bmoney

This decline can be described as precipitous, another 5%? Geez...can you pick a worse stock? Time to forget I bought this POS and check my statement again in 6 months, hopefully my TPH holdings will still buy something meaningful.

This should be a lesson to anyone reading, a financial message board can cost you money.


----------



## bmoney

Hey fellas, I may have stumbled on to something interesting.

Burgundy Asset Management is listed as an insider in TPH

So I went SEDI to see what they have been up to:

4 entries:

Score Media Inc. 2011-12-13 - 2012-08-31
Pethealth Inc. 2014-02-24 - 2014-09-02
Softchoice Corporation 2013-02-06 - 2013-04-22
Temple Hotels Inc. 2014-06-25

Check the names and dates, I dare you


----------



## doctrine

I don't think the dividend is going anywhere. Expect a full dividend declaration next week for November.


----------



## GOB

bmoney said:


> Hey fellas, I may have stumbled on to something interesting.
> 
> Burgundy Asset Management is listed as an insider in TPH
> 
> So I went SEDI to see what they have been up to:
> 
> 4 entries:
> 
> Score Media Inc. 2011-12-13 - 2012-08-31
> Pethealth Inc. 2014-02-24 - 2014-09-02
> Softchoice Corporation 2013-02-06 - 2013-04-22
> Temple Hotels Inc. 2014-06-25
> 
> Check the names and dates, I dare you


Very interesting!


----------



## GoldStone

bmoney said:


> Hey fellas, I may have stumbled on to something interesting.
> 
> Burgundy Asset Management is listed as an insider in TPH
> 
> So I went SEDI to see what they have been up to:
> 
> 4 entries:
> 
> Score Media Inc. 2011-12-13 - 2012-08-31
> Pethealth Inc. 2014-02-24 - 2014-09-02
> Softchoice Corporation 2013-02-06 - 2013-04-22
> Temple Hotels Inc. 2014-06-25
> 
> Check the names and dates, I dare you


Burgundy is a value shop. If you own a number of companies trading below intrinsic value, odds are that some of them will be taken out. It doesn't mean that *every* company will be taken out, though.

SEDI shows 11 holdings where Burgundy is an insider or used to be an insider. Not all of them got acquired.


----------



## gibor365

doctrine said:


> I don't think the dividend is going anywhere. Expect a full dividend declaration next week for November.


 but 4% DRIP discount can go


----------



## martinv

I still think the drop in share price is partially related to the plunge in oil prices which happened very quickly. TPH appears to trying be diversify away from its dependency on Ft. McMurray. I bought TPH this Summer mainly for the dividend although a slight increase in share price would be nice.
Even a 50% dividend cut would still yield about 6% which is better than my HISA of 1.05%.
I don't see any fundamental change in the company at this time. Will be interesting to see how this works out for me in one to five years time.


----------



## martinv

Appears that the November dividend is on track, no change. Just in time for Xmas.
Temple Hotels Inc. ("Temple") (TSX: TPH) announced today that it has declared a dividend in the amount of $0.045 per share for the month ended November 30, 2014. Payment will be made on December 15, 2014 to the shareholders of record at the close of business on November 30, 2014.


----------



## el oro

FYI

http://ici.radio-canada.ca/regions/...ray-fermeture-camp-travailleurs-petrole.shtml
If I'm understanding this correctly, one of the large work camps north of Fort Mac has just recently closed down. They had/have a lot more suites than all of TPH's Ft Mac hotels combined.

Also, the CEO has been on a buying spree in the open market over the past week.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Nice to hear a turnaround story on hotel REITs .. .http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/investment-ideas/book-a-stay-in-your-portfolio-with-hotel-reit-innvest/article21853687/ ... in this case, INN.un.


----------



## yyz

Temple Hotels Inc. ("Temple") (TSX: TPH) announced today that it has reduced its monthly dividend to $0.025 ($0.30 annualized) from the previous level of $0.045 ($0.54 annualized).


----------



## mrPPincer

Thanks for the info yyz.

Closed at a 52 week low of $3.07 yesterday, should be interesting to see how low it will go now, anybody care to hazard a guess?

IMHO nobody could have predicted such a sudden and steep decline in oil prices, & if they sustain indefinitely who knows how much more pain is to come down the road.

My dividend yield on cost per share is still 6.3% annually after the dividend cut, still not bad for a risky speculative stock I guess.
I have no plans to buy any more, aside from drips, or to sell, but I see the CEO is still accumulating shares.


----------



## bmoney

This stock is a dog. Burgundy ceased to be an insider at the end of Dec, which says to me that a reputable value manager like Burgundy sees no value in TPH. I'm beginning to think about taking my lumps on this and moving on. It will be a few years before we see a recovery, and with recession risks in Canada greater today than last summer, it could be a rough ride down. Insider buying has ceased. Does anyone see any bright spots? I'm ready to jump ship.


----------



## fcyloh82

I'm also in same boat - I'm worried that because oil companies in the area have reduced their 2015 CAPEX with its effect rolling out starting mostly in 2016, this stock may have further downside. Upside is where I'm not sure about and would appreciate any insight into this.


----------



## Jon_Snow

I actually let some CMF "locals" convince me to buy some of this way back. Let me just say, I'm a lot more discerning now when I see an obscure company pumped up around here. :upset:


----------



## Butters

I think they had good intentions though

This company looked like it was coming around again, acquisitions outside of alberta to diversify...
increased its dividended a few times

it was a logical gamble that didn't pan out because of oil

the CEO thought so too, he put lots into this guy and is sitting in red like all of us, expect we are in the thousands and he is in the millions

I don't think it was pumped at all, none of us really saw this oil thing coming, its like if you bought any oil stock and lost 50%...


----------



## fcyloh82

Well, we all did hazard a risk with this purchase, but the sudden steep decline in oil wasn't quite predictable.


----------



## dubmac

Jon_Snow said:


> I actually let some CMF "locals" convince me to buy some of this way back. Let me just say, I'm a lot more discerning now when I see an obscure company pumped up around here. :upset:


Me too. I will do more Due diligence before buying...any stock...again!


----------



## Toronto.gal

Jon_Snow said:


> I actually let *some CMF "locals" convince me to buy some of this way back.* Let me just say, I'm a lot more discerning now when I see an obscure company pumped up around here. :upset:


If you're pointing fingers at who I think you are [or anyone else for that matter], I believe you're being totally unfair, especially as such a member has contributed a great deal to this forum.

The truth of the matter is that you [like others], bought this stock because you were primarily seduced by the fat/insane 10% dividend yield; you said so yourself [post 101]. Tequila could have also played a factor in your decision, as u sometimes buy from Mexico. 

At the end of the day, your mistakes/successes are your own; and to be fair, you have attributed some of the latter to this forum also, but those, too, belong to you!


----------



## dubmac

I agree T.gal. I own this failure. I'll deal with it.


----------



## humble_pie

for shame! what due diligence, precisely, do you 2 guys think you could have possibly unearthed, way back when, that would have told you exactly when & by how much the price of oil was going to plummet?

please show me where your own due diligence proved that the very future of the tar sands might be imperilled ...

btw ya'll so smart, ya'll were shorting oil stocks way back then?


----------



## bmoney

Speaking only for myself, I got seduced by the yield, their rapid acquisitions, the insider buying and the thesis of continued growth in the oil patch. I've actually stayed in a few hotels in their portfolio and know some of their locations in Ontario. My initial concern is the conflict of interest inherent between Arni's management company Shelter Properties and Temple, he's double ending the deal as shareholder/employee of Shelter and Temple, but I'm willing to turn a blind eye if the company was well run and they sure had some good intentions, but it's unlikely these properties are going to be growing anytime soon, certaintly not from tourism as these are mostly hotels geared for business travellers. The problem as I see it, they have not been able to generate a profit for a few quarters and it looks like they may not generate a profit anytime soon. As much as I like owning stocks trading at a discount, I'm not sure that anyone would be looking to acquire a hotel portfolio at this stage, that could mean further write-downs of the fair market value of assets and additional debt unless by some miracle things improve. I find it hard to find hope, outside of a possible rebound of investment in the oil patch in 2016.


----------



## dubmac

bmoney said:


> Speaking only for myself, I got seduced by the yield,.


me too. I checked the chart as well & saw the stock seemed to fluctuate between 5.50 to 6 for 2013 and 2014 & somewhat expected the same pattern in the future. Alas, oil dropped, and with it TPH. I underestimated the extent to which TPH was linked to the price of oil.


----------



## dubmac

bmoney said:


> Speaking only for myself, I got seduced by the yield,.


me too. I checked the chart as well & saw the stock seemed to fluctuate between 5.50 to 6 for 2013 and 2014 & somewhat expected the same pattern in the future. Alas, oil dropped, and with it TPH. I underestimated the extent to which TPH was linked to the price of oil. By no means could I, or most people, have predicted the drop in oil.


----------



## humble_pie

Jon_Snow said:


> I actually let some CMF "locals" convince me to buy some of this way back. Let me just say, I'm a lot more discerning now when I see an obscure company pumped up around here. :upset:




surely you didn't really mean this, jon snow? it's so unlike you.

an accusation of pumping stocks is harsh, especially when the accusation is 100% unjustified. Stock pumping is an illegal activity. A criminal action, i believe, although seldom prosecuted.

a number of longtime cmffers posted cogent reasons, several months ago, why they thought temple was looking good. All the reasons made sense at the time. None of the posters were, or are, stock pumps.

are you planning to also go after the folks who posted about ACQ, jon snow? or canadian oil sands? or your favourite CPG? those stocks, too, were looking good, once upon a time. The parties who wrote enthusiastically about them - once upon a time - were not stock pumps either. They were knowledgeable cmffers who were sharing their strategies. This is what a forum is supposed to do.

i used to believe it was an unspoken civility around here that members with established profiles, plus demonstrably nothing to sell, could share a few of their strategies without being accused as criminals ...


----------



## PuckiTwo

^ ^ ^

and..... isn't the forum there to voice opinions? Whithout being accused later on that this opinion one followed as one's own choice didn't work out as one would have liked to?

Let's be glad that there are expert opinions, that we can voice opinions, that we have free speech and that what we are saying and writing is not being/getting monitored. That we have people who have opinions and voice them. We need to let these opinions flow as freely as they come in – noticing what they are – opinions.

Opinions on CMF are like reading hundreds of different analysts, financial papers and other means of publicity and different cultural viewpoints. All opinions together form a picture in one's mind of which you build your own further steps = Due Diligence! That's what we all have to do ourselves. 

It is not so long ago that CMF went through a challenging time because some people thought they had to put CMF's incredible diversity into boxes (and sort out the opinions which didn't fit). Strong CMFers helped to reverse it. I am thankful for this. 

Re: Temple Hotels: I also fell for the stock – although I should have known better. The hotels in Nova Scotia made me suspicious – and that there was no hotel in Quebec on their list. In NS they suddenly seem to offer lower rates than before (hearsay). Which surprised me as I knew the management company as fairly high priced. There seemed to be a Maritime group around Burgundy – but I could be wrong about that. I posted my concerns (too late) about this upthread in posts 165 and 166.

I also got blinded, bought 100 @ 5.77. I pushed my concerns to the back of my mind, the high dividend seemed to be sustainable and the fact that the group's majority of hotels was out west serving the oil fields, a business I know nothing about. 

From a tourism industry viewpoint Canada has been in the doldrums for many years - there are major shifts in what tourists do. Traffic from the US has dropped considerably over years - infrastructure and marketing quite frankly - suck.


----------



## dubmac

humble_pie said:


> a number of longtime cmffers posted cogent reasons, several months ago, why they thought temple was looking good. All the reasons made sense at the time. None of the posters were, or are, stock pumps.
> 
> i used to believe it was an unspoken civility around here that members with established profiles, plus demonstrably nothing to sell, could share a few of their strategies without being accused as criminals ...


FWIW, I don't think that TPH was pumped. TPH is a yield play- it had what looked like a good relatively stable history of serving up regular distributions. But I do feel a little foolish, perhaps wreckless is a better word, for diving in. On reflection, I perhaps should have tempered my enthusiasm - perhaps bought fewer shares more gradually. Hotels, (like taxis etc), it would seem, are under considerable pressure given the new "apps" (Uber) - heck many folks I know are renting rooms off of craigslist when they travel to cdn cities. 

The cmf'er who provided much of the information performed a service in offering up a good assessment of what was then a good company - can't blame anyone for the unexpected turmoil in the market.


----------



## Jon_Snow

I think my choice of words, accusing others of "pumping", may have been a bit off base. The choice to buy this was my own. This stock didn't pass my "smell" test, but I bought it anyway. I should have stuck with my "gut". I agree humble, the analysis by CMF'ers in this thread was well thought out and well intentioned.

Didn't mean to ruffle feathers, if any were ruffled...

Anyway, there are so many good things happening in my life, investing wise and in general, that ol' TPH's struggles are really of no consequence.


----------



## humble_pie

there's an excellent long article on the future of oil price posted by Optsy Eagle this am. If this link doesn't work, the message is over on the COS thread.

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...il-Sands-(COS)?p=565954&viewfull=1#post565954

i'm not sure i agree with author jeremy grantham's projected dates - ie in 3 years this will happen, in 8 years that will happen, etc - but different scenarios are well laid out in the article. My takeaway is that the author says fracking over-production is key, not a saudi or anti-russia conspiracy. Shale drillers & producers will be OK in the short term but accrued problems will likely surface this coming summer, he says.

the tar sands & the bakken are epicentres of this story. So a business consisting mostly of hotels & other accommodations for shale workers cannot escape being vulnerable.

what drew me to the bakken story years ago was a tiny newspaper filler paragraph about how the town of weyburn saskatchewan had witnessed the biggest rise in housing prices seen that year anywhere in canada. Looking to see what was happening in weyburn led to a gigantic new deposit of light sweet crude, deep underneath farmer Bakken's fields, with an unheard-of company named crescent point beavering away drilling the properties.

perhaps it's time now to start watching housing prices in beautiful downtown weyburn once again, are they spiralling down ...

_Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits and 
Are melted into air, into thin air: 

And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, 
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve 
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, 
Leave not a rack behind._


----------



## GOB

I've been accused of being a pumper on AAPL by a very senior poster here. As if a nobody on a little Canadian message board can move a $700B stock. People need to careful about what they say lest they drive away some quality posters.


----------



## el oro

After posting upthread in November about the massive work camp closing, I took a good look at TPH. This could have been a game changer. The profit margins on the Fort Mac properties were huge and therefore critical to company performance. I looked into the room availability of the Ft Mac properties, in particular their long-term stay hotel. All had vacancies for the foreseeable future... not a good sign. One of their properties is 100% leased out to one of the major oil companies until 2018 and I wouldn't bank on a renewal. There was no way I was picking this up at ~ $3.75 vs other opportunities.

Your upsides are:
-Much lower heating costs this winter, which were significant a year ago. Much lower nat gas and warmer winter overall.
-Borrowing costs remain rock bottom
-Hope that oil prices recover

It sounds like a lot of folks here are holding on for upside #3. I think there are better ways to play the oil recovery. The oil cos benefit directly from rising prices. Hotels? Not so much. The slowing industry growth and cost discipline that will come as a result of this downturn will ensure recovering oil does not instantly trickle down. jmo


----------



## humble_pie

GOB you were never a pumper! 

in reality there are astonishingly few pumps on cmf forum. The last professional pump we ever saw had named himself Lucy. He was an american masquerading as Lucy, allegedly a female real estate agent in the GTA who knew all about stocks as well. Couple years ago.

Lucy started out sedating/seducing cmf with his/her profound knowledge of blue chip dividend stocks. By & by, he/she taxiied off through canadian penny stocks into promoting some sensationally crazy US pink sheets. I remember a pink sheet tied up with hong kong/Macau gambling casinos, asian betting rings ...

nobody fell for Lucy's pitch, though, so before long he/she disappeared.


----------



## al42

Reply from Arni to email...

Thanks for your question. I believe we are being devalued based on our energy market exposure in Alberta and Fort McMurray in particular. Despite weakness in the oil patch our other geographic markets are doing well. We believe we will be able to demonstrate year over year earnings growth by the last half of 2015 due to a full year contribution from the six hotels acquired mid year 2014. Compared to other Canadian hotel entities (Inn Vest & Holloway) we are undervalued at 5.7 x AFFO multiple on trailing earnings.
-- 

Arni C. Thorsteinson
President


----------



## bmoney

Thanks al42 that's really helpful!


----------



## Butters

Down 20% no news, 168,000 volume

Arni selling yet?

Oops meant 10% finger slipped

Down 10% today


----------



## al42

SheaButters said:


> Down 20% no news, 168,000 volume
> 
> Arni selling yet?
> 
> Oops meant 10% finger slipped
> 
> Down 10% today


Yup..something very bad going on here. it was down over 5% yesterday as well!


----------



## Mitchell Silverhar

Earning friday... maybe the reason..


----------



## gibor365

Maybe be insiders know that we don't? Like dividend suspension?


----------



## al42

gibor said:


> Maybe be insiders know that we don't? Like dividend suspension?


I have to agree...smells like a leak of information. Dividend suspension would be a kick in the pants though.
Especially after January's 45% cut!!


----------



## gibor365

got reply from TPH


> WE have no logical explanation to what is happening with Temple's stock price. Dividends were NOT cut again.
> 
> We are reporting our 2014 results at the close of trading today.


----------



## mrPPincer

almost tempted to buy a little more.. almost
I'm pretty sure I can resist the impulse


----------



## al42

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/news-sources/?date=+20150311&archive=cnw&slug=C8867


----------



## gibor365

al42 said:


> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/news-sources/?date=+20150311&archive=cnw&slug=C8867


I actually expected worse results... interesting what will be market reaction tomorrow...


----------



## bmoney

I would not add here, and I don't care if the stock goes up or down tomorrow. It's going to take 1-2 years to recover from this mess. Also some of the gains are paper gains from appreciation of properties. I was looking at their Q3 results last night, I applied a 10% discount to the fair market value of their hotel assets and backed out all their debt came to a book value around $2.40. They use external management through Shelter and they have negative cash flow. This is either a crappy business or crappy businesses cycle. Arni was quoted in a trade paper a few days ago, and he seems to be of the opinion that this is a cyclical downturn, the man has 40 years experience so what do I know, other than the pain of being a TPH shareholder and having a 60% paper loss.


----------



## londoncalling

I am always surprised that the investment community and the world in general have a hard time understanding that commodities are super cyclical. TPH should survive in the long term. They are not a ft mac 1 trick pony. I am also sitting on a unrealized capital loss nearly 60% on this and some other energy plays as well. However, I can shrug it off because combined TPH and energy amount to a 2.8% capital loss on overall portfolio excluding dividends. An asset allocation that is both globally diversified and underweighted in energy in comparison to the Canadian market seems to have paid off for me in this instance. Also, I have time on my side. May add to some energy plays after q1 reports are done. I also have time horizon that will make this seem like more of a missed buying opportunity than a panic mode of 60% paper loss. My current fear is a takeover of some of these riskier plays by a bigger fish. Currently holding on Temple. Have enough Reits for now.

Cheers


----------



## martinv

Finally, a few good days for TPH.. I haven't been posting much of late as I have been watching my oil related stocks crash and burn these past 6 months. No one too blame but myself. Thought I was picking decent dividend paying companies but ouch it hurts. Felt like I was a deer in the headlights.
The problems started when I began a smaller cap dividend portfolio last summer. LRE, TPH and 3 oil service companies were unfortunately all bought at their peak. ( should have stuck with the banks!)
In any event, oil has moved up some and perhaps in a few years this may still work out.
For good news, PM (Prism Medical ) and SIS ( Savaria ) have done quite nicely these past 6 months.


----------



## bmoney

The news driving the stock is that Morguard has been accumulating shares since November and now owns a 10% stake.


----------



## humble_pie

all true, as bmoney says. Morguard corp disclosed this am that its beneficial ownership in Temple hotels has now risen to 10.8%.

the company said that during the period 18 november14 - 5 may/15, it bought nearly 4,000,000 shares of TPH common at prices averaging $3.50/share.

in addition, morguard bought a half-million $$ of TPH convertible bonds during the same period. The bonds are convertible iinto TPH common at prices ranging from $5.82-$8.00.

the TPH dividend yield is currently 11.50%. Feeling my way here, but to me the morguard decision to focus so heavily on purchasing the riskier common shares rather than the more secure convertibles demonstrates confidence in continuation of the TPH common share dividend.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/153...d-convertible-debentures-of-temple-hotels-inc


----------



## bmoney

I own Morguard NA REIT and I think they are a very well managed company, albeit undervalued since the CEO owns a majority share. This is positive news and could lead to a possible buyout down the road (something I've alluded to before) as TPH is an easy take over target for a company of Morguard's size. Now hopefully it gets back up to $5 so I can stop looking at that ugly loss on my statement.


----------



## humble_pie

eek, $5?

arni who bought so much TPH north of $5 during 2014 would be crushed. Plus why did morguard load up on debs convertible at $5.82-8.00 if they were entertaining any notion of taking over at $5 ...


----------



## bmoney

My guess is that the bonds have recourse over the assets of the corporation, and Morguard would be in a position to scoope up those assets at a discount in a worst case scenario. Best case scenario they could convert debt to equity, or continue to collect interest. I'm not totally sure but I don't think Morguard would accumulate shares in TPH because they like owning the stock, I think there's an acquisition here.


----------



## gibor365

> could lead to a possible buyout down the road


 it would be great if Morguard buys TPH north of $5


----------



## bmoney

A buyout goes a long way to explain why Arni was loading up on shares and trying to setup internal management. He is a seasoned businessman and investor. With each accreditive acquisition TPH becomes more attractive as a take over target, particularily if it's turn key. Large companies like Morguard would sooner acquire a 100MM company than a 20MM company, in this case bigger is better, there are less pieces for a suitor to have to stitch together.


----------



## martinv

gibor said:


> it would be great if Morguard buys TPH north of $5


Yes, but for me it would have to be way, way North.
My buy prices started at 5.75 down to 4.36. 
The 1.70 would have been a terrific investment..... in hindsight!
I did buy it mainly for the dividend income though and was hoping for a modest share gain over a number of years.
Will see how this all plays out.


----------



## gibor365

> Yes, but for me it would have to be way, way North.


 The Norther, the Better  My average price is also pretty high, but at list I was DRIPping shares with discount they offer....


----------



## lostwords

ugh.. all the gains for the last week or so is slowly disappearing


----------



## al42

Really bad qtr...Dividend slashed from 30 cents to 10 cents per year!!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/news-sources/?date=+20150512&archive=cnw&slug=C5139


----------



## bmoney

A dog. Hoping for a buyout.


----------



## al42

Kind of explains the sell off yesterday and today.The market always seems to know before the bad news is released!!


----------



## londoncalling

I can say with strong conviction that my move to switch from INNvest to Temple was definitely a bad decision. Still think this company is not as tied to energy as we are led to believe.


----------



## bmoney

The recent acquistions are performing well, but the old hotel properties in Fort Mac are performing terribly - no surprises. The problem is that the Fort Mac properties are also the most profitable ones.


----------



## apatel

humble_pie said:


> all true, as bmoney says. Morguard corp disclosed this am that its beneficial ownership in Temple hotels has now risen to 10.8%.
> 
> the company said that during the period 18 november14 - 5 may/15, it bought nearly 4,000,000 shares of TPH common at prices averaging $3.50/share.
> 
> in addition, morguard bought a half-million $$ of TPH convertible bonds during the same period. The bonds are convertible iinto TPH common at prices ranging from $5.82-$8.00.
> 
> the TPH dividend yield is currently 11.50%. Feeling my way here, but to me the morguard decision to focus so heavily on purchasing the riskier common shares rather than the more secure convertibles demonstrates confidence in continuation of the TPH common share dividend.
> 
> http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/153...d-convertible-debentures-of-temple-hotels-inc


When I look at the trades done by Morguard on Insider Activity, I think the avg price is $2.50 not $3.50 as mentioned in the press release


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## mrPPincer

bmoney said:


> This should be a lesson to anyone reading, *a financial message board can cost you money*.


^Probably my absolute favorite quote from the entire interwebs  :encouragement:


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## martinv

Some news today.
http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/154...fied-independent-directors-to-the-board-of-te

"Centennial Group Announces Campaign for Immediate Change at Temple Hotels Inc., Nominates Five Highly Qualified, Independent Directors to the Board of Temple"

Interesting, hope it ends well instead of badly!


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## lostwords

Temple Response: http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/154...ment-in-response-to-centiennial-group-limited

Sold all my position at $2.60.


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## Freedom48

martinv said:


> Some news today.
> http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/154...fied-independent-directors-to-the-board-of-te
> 
> "Centennial Group Announces Campaign for Immediate Change at Temple Hotels Inc., Nominates Five Highly Qualified, Independent Directors to the Board of Temple"
> 
> Interesting, hope it ends well instead of badly!



So this release states "and the dividend to be cut twice in the past 18 months". I only see it being cut once in the last 18 months from 4.5 cents to 2.5 cents. Has another cut been announced?


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## Franky Jr

Yeah they cut it recently from a monthly 2.5cents to a quarterly 2.5cents. Pretty massive, between the 2 cuts the dividend is down 81.5%. 
I'm bleeding bad on this one but you're buying these hotels right now way below book, so I don't know if I want to hang around or not. They carry lots of debt.


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## bmoney

I'm praying Morguard takes a seat on the board, this could be a turn around story, but I am not looking to add anything here. Already in the hole for 2.5k on this loser.


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## dubmac

lostwords said:


> Sold all my position at $2.60.


me too. I'm out.


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## el oro

Franky Jr said:


> Yeah they cut it recently from a monthly 2.5cents to a quarterly 2.5cents. Pretty massive, between the 2 cuts the dividend is down 81.5%.
> I'm bleeding bad on this one but you're buying these hotels right now way below book, so I don't know if I want to hang around or not. They carry lots of debt.


P/B can be hazardous to your financial well-being when looked at in isolation (ie. value traps). Companies that generate low or negative return on capital deserve to trade well below book, whereas those with consistently high return on capital deserve to trade at multiples to book.

There are better places to be, imo.


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## londoncalling

Only time will tell. I agree that P/B(or any other) is a poor metric to use as a sole determinant for stock selection. Perhaps you could share where these better places to be are as I have some capital to deploy. I still think TPH has some great properties and will bounce back(if only I knew when :biggrin. Perhaps dollars would be better allocated elsewhere but I am content to hold this for awhile. 

Cheers


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## bmoney

So both Morguard and Burgundy are >10% shareholders, and we now have a board of directors with majority control compared to management. 

What are both Morguard and Burgundy seeing that collectively compel them to control >25% of TPH common stock?


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## gibor365

Morguard Corporation (TSX: MRC) announced that it has acquired, 986,473 common shares ("Common Shares") of Temple Hotels Inc. ("Temple Hotels") (TSX: TPH), through the facilities of the Toronto Stock Exchange and alternative Canadian trading platforms between May 8, 2015 and June 10, 2015, at a weighted average price of approximately $2.48 per Common Share. The Common Shares acquired by Morguard represent approximately 2.4% of the issued and outstanding Common Shares of Temple Hotels, bringing Morguard's ownership to 12%.
Read more at http://www.stockhouse.com/news/pres...tion-in-temple-hotels-inc#iCjHZbEQLLAHryf6.99


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## londoncalling

hence the 10% increase in SP


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## bmoney

I'm smelling a takeover/sale. Morguard is loading up. Public companies don't ordinarily accumulate a 15% stake in a $100MM business because they are looking for cap-gains. My feeling is there is significant land value or certain hotels properties may be more profitable conversions to residential or office (hence Morguard making an accretive acquisition). Burgundy has a history of picking up deep value stocks that are turn-around and sold, check on SEDAR.


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## humble_pie

then there's Centennial sniffing in there too


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## apatel

*Temple Hotels Inc. sell Hotel Saskatchewan for $38 million*

Winnipeg, Manitoba, July 6, 2015 – Temple Hotels Inc. (“Temple”) (TSX: TPH) announced
today that it has agreed to sell Hotel Saskatchewan (the “Hotel”) in downtown Regina, SK for
$38 million, subject to the customary closing adjustments. The sale price is net of all costs
associated with renovating and rebranding the Hotel as an Autograph Collection by Marriott. The
224 room full-service Hotel was acquired by Temple in April 2014 for $32.8 million.
The sale is expected to result in net cash proceeds to Temple of approximately $17 million, after
the repayment of the existing first mortgage loan in the approximate amount of $20.9 million.
The net cash proceeds will be used to repay other debt and for working capital purposes. No
brokerage commission is payable on the transaction.
The sale is scheduled to close on September 1, 2015


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## gibor365

I have very small position in TPH, today in my holdings together with TPH, I see same number of shares of TPH.RT RTS Temple Hotels exp. 10/29/2015 ... What is it?


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## yyz

Those are the rights offering.

http://www.templehotels.ca/pdf/september.16.2015.pdf


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## gibor365

yyz said:


> Those are the rights offering.
> 
> http://www.templehotels.ca/pdf/september.16.2015.pdf


 I don't want to buy more shares and now THP.RT is trading at $0.12 , so if I don't do any actions what gonna be on Oct 29 ? Can I just sell THP.RT before?


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## yyz

Sure you can sell them before.
Basically the rights will be priced approximately tracking the share price.So as of Fridays close the share price was $1.26
Now $1.10 plus 1.133 rights would = 1 share and that would be $1.23596 ,a bit under the current share price.If you don't exercise your rights then your shares become diluted by the new shares that will be created by those who do exercise their rights.


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## gibor365

Wondering what other TPH holders gonna do?


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## yyz

If you read the release it already says that some of the big shareholders are planning to exercise their options in full and may obtain more.


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## gibor365

yyz said:


> If you read the release it already says that some of the big shareholders are planning to exercise their options in full and may obtain more.


I meant on CMF  ... small shareholders


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## mrPPincer

Well, that's a pain, I have no spare cash in my TFSA brokerage account right now even if I did want to exercise the rights, which means they'd expire worthless and the value of my shares will be diluted by that much more.
I'll be selling mine (trading costs @ 10%ish assuming they're worth 70-80 bucks total)


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## gibor365

> I'll be selling mine (trading costs @ 10%ish assuming they're worth 70-80 bucks total)


 I'm in very similar situation , trading fee will be about 10-12% of proceeds


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## humble_pie

the value of the shares is going to be diluted by all the new shares issued pursuant to exercise of rights. Could be a near-doubling in shares outstanding.

it's a fairly ugly force majeure by management. They want their cash. The last similar deal we heard about in cmf forum was Turquoise Hill, the miner with assets in mongolia. I don't remember what cmf member thomps did, but he said he could definitely feel the force.


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## GOB

Glad I got out of this dog a while ago. Going to stick with what I know despite the risk of not diversifying much.


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## liquidfinance

GOB said:


> Glad I got out of this dog a while ago.


I will second that.


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## dubmac

liquidfinance said:


> I will second that.


Heck..why not...I'll "third" that.


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## londoncalling

I am still a stubborn holder (see thread about biggest loser/biggest mistake this year) but only as a small amount of portfolio. Read a thread about averaging down. Here on CMF. My guess is the price will slowly creep down to the price of the right offering. If share price pops unexpectedly in the next while I will exercise. If not I will sell or let them expire. Down a ways, don't see much need add here. Don't like the dilution and expect it to have a negative effect in the short term. Long term I am unsure. Learned that I like my RIET allocation simple and plain. Just run of the mill REITs. No hotels, medicals etc.


Cheers


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## eddyo

I've read the Press Release but don't fully understand it. Being a shareholder located in Quebec, am I excluded from the Rights Offering??


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## humble_pie

eddyo said:


> I've read the Press Release but don't fully understand it. Being a shareholder located in Quebec, am I excluded from the Rights Offering??



as a quebec resident, you're not eligible to receive rights.

the rights that would have been assigned to you had you lived in another part of canada, will be sold on your behalf by the "qualified shareholder." This is the CST trust company. They will work in tandem with your broker, any funds payable to yourself from such sale will turn up in your account in due course.

keep in mind that you cannot control the date of such sale. Also, if you have few rights, the CST & broker fees for the above transaction may exceed the actual proceeds of the sale, in which case, alas, you will not receive anything.

you can see all this on page (iii) of the front matter in the prospectus that was/should have been mailed to you.

what remains to do is contact your broker & make sure they are on the same page as the above. Initially you may find resistance from novice or new representatives, but persevere. Good luck.


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## eddyo

Thanks for the info.

I checked my account and I recently received shares labeled TPH.RT.TO. So if I understood correctly, I cannot sell these shares myself, instead they will be sold on my behalf eventually and if anything remains after the transaction costs, I'll receive it in my account as cash.


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## gibor365

> they will be sold on my behalf eventually


 how eventually?! On which date? And if trading fees will be greater than proceeds?


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## Butters

im not in this one
but i had some rights before and to keep it simple

1) use the rights
2) sell the rights (transaction fee)
3) let the rights expire (do nothing)


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## gibor365

SheaButters said:


> im not in this one
> but i had some rights before and to keep it simple
> 
> 1) use the rights
> 2) sell the rights (transaction fee)
> 3) let the rights expire (do nothing)


But if your proceeds greater than trading fees, why let it expire?


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## humble_pie

(message for eddy) what a confusion! imho if you are resident in quebec you should not have received the rights!

it's possible i'm wrong! it's possible your broker made a mistake!

at this point you should check with the broker. Check all details, because (maybe i'm wrong again) if you really are the proud owner of those rights & if you'd wish to exercise them, you'd need to fill out & file a thing called a certificate of beneficial ownership & get that to the broker ... soon ...

happy confusion ... i am so very sorry if i'm not being helpful ... tis the best that a poor crumpet can do ... me i never rec'd any rights & broker says they are going to sell rights equal in number to rights i would have received if i dwelled in, say, godbehere nfld or diggetywash ns ...


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## eddyo

No worries...I appreciate the input. 

I'm gonna give my broker a call and see what they say.


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## mrPPincer

this just keeps getting better and better, I got a part-fill @ $0.11 sometime at 3:53 PM while I was out working on the fence, now I'll have two trading fees to extract a lousy $60 or so.. :hopelessness:


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## bmoney

Morguard has been actively buying up rights, personally I will be selling mine. Management can dilute me all they want, I don't care anymore, I've written off the position as a loss. Arnie has been a destroyer of capital, he, and the rest of management can eat it and sink their own cash into this pit. Maybe it will give them more motivation to turn things around. Personally I hope it goes belly-up and Arnie losses his shirt on the million plus shares he already owns and the management fees too. FU


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## londoncalling

sold my rights @.12
better than expiring

Cheers


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## Tourist9394

What does everyone think of this stock? Will there be further rights offering? There is morguard, burgundy and Centennial interested in this. Recently cut the quarterly, these is significant interest in the land


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## londoncalling

Recently suspended dividend. Long term may save the company. Short term not what investors look for in a REIT

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/31369-Dividend-distribution-cuts-2015/page5


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## humble_pie

londoncalling said:


> Long term may save the company.



gawd save the company since nothing else will .:biggrin:


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## Tourist9394

I am in the real estate industry, should I tell mainland chinese housewives to sink their house cash into this a plan a corporate takeover?:biggrin: I've been looking at this for 2 years, never brought in once, their jewel is the Westminster quay.


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## AltaRed

Tourist9394 said:


> their jewel is the Westminster quay.


Not a good idea to stay at the Westminster Quay then - especially if the owner is going bankrupt? That was going to be an obvious choice given proximity to my sister-in-law.


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## Tourist9394

How low can they go? 50 -60 cents? I am seriously considering a position now.


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## el oro

50-60 cents.. or zero.


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## Daddyo

The stock price was about 78 cent last night and when I checked today it's at $4.20. 

What gives?? I'm not going to get my hopes up as I'm sure the increase is related to some kind of error.


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## dubmac

looks like they amalgamated shares (?) or reduced the number of shares by a factor of 6.


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## Daddyo

does that mean the amount of shares I have are reduced to 1/6 of the original amount. So if i have 6 shares originally, now I have 1?


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## mrPPincer

Daddyo said:


> does that mean the amount of shares I have are reduced to 1/6 of the original amount. So if i have 6 shares originally, now I have 1?


Yes


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## gibor365

It's funny , as my CIBC RRSP account showed that TPH jumped 473%


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## londoncalling

Up 22% today 

http://www.templehotels.ca/pdf/TPH-creditfacilityFeb23-18.pdf


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