# Landlord refusing to replace



## SecretHero (Nov 7, 2011)

Hi Everyone,

I live in an apartment complex and have been renting same unit just over 8 years.
When I moved in carpet was not new and high traffic areas were already in bad shape.
I asked property management back than to get it replaced but it was never done. 
I did my best to keep it clean with deep steam cleaners every year and covered bad areas with Persian rugs last 8 years.

Now, the carpet in living room is completely worn and coming out. I’ve been asking our new property management to get it replaced (at least living room area) last 3 months. 
It was decided that if I get a new carpet my rent will rise because my rent is not as high as other renovated units. 
I was also given other option. I can move to one of the renovated unit and off-course my rent will go up.
By the way my rent has been (last 2 years) increasing higher (3.11%) than the allowed guidelines. I have no problem with that. 
Apparently Board can allow landlords to increase above limits if there were upgrades done in the building (e.g. new water heater for build…). 

I don’t want to move to a new renovated unit and I also don’t want my rent to go up because I asked for a new carpet. I know landlords suppose to replace/fix normal wear and tear.

So before I get legal counseling, any thoughts? Is it legal property management to increase rent if a new carpet or whatever replaced?

Thanks!
SH


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

As a long time landlord if I had a tenant that stayed 8 years, kept the place clean and in good repair and paid the rent on time I would not only buy new carpet I would throw in a big screen TV.

The property management company must be run by morons. Most of them are.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Our landlord does a terrific job of maintaining their rental townhomes, but they are getting outdated (1960s) and they are upgrading the interiors to more modern.

The rent is upgraded as well for the new units, but they allow people to upgrade themselves if they wish to keep their rents down.

So..........we replace everything cosmetic ourselves. Our rent today is only $70 a month more than it was 10 years ago. We pay $1030 for a 3 bed/3 bath unit in a nice complex and back onto a small park.

We have spent about $3000 in 10 years, so it works out to less than $20 a month and we can pick what we want. 

We found maple hardwood under the old carpet and just cleaned it up, replacing the carpet on the stairs and a hallway only. Everything else is hardwood.

It was a small area and we bought the best quality carpet, which cost about $1800 installed.

Our neighbors are paying $200 - $300 a month more for their upgraded units, so one way or the other they are paying, but don't get to choose what they want.

If you plan on staying for a few years, it might be an idea to do it yourself if you can afford it and the landlord will allow it.

There are tenants who have lived here for 30 years or more, and have upgraded their places to the point they would be unrecognizable from the original.

One neighbor told us she lived here for 40 years and her rent had "doubled" over time. I was thinking her rent was probably around $300 a month 40 years ago........so $600 is pretty darn good.

It was after she told me that, when we decided to do our own upgrading a little every year.

After putting up Christmas lights, running the lights through the porch light........I discovered it was pretty rusty and wobbly. We called about it and they had it replaced with a new one within an hour.

I think it is better to work with the landlord (if they are reasonable) than taking legal action etc..........especially if you intend to stay for a long time.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I don't really understand why you feel entitled to have upgrades. If you don't like the place, or the conditions, you are free to move. 

Not every landlord out there is making a killing off the backs of their tenants, many "investors" overpay for properties, don't understand all the costs involved, and find themselves losing money.

Even if they don't, there are many bad tenants out there who trash places and leave...not having any assets of their own, so the repairs come out of the pocket of the landlord.

The best landlord/tenants are the ones who understand that this is a business. The landlord will value a good tenant and do things to keep them and a tenant will understand that the landlord isn't their mother who gives them everything they think they deserve, so they keep their demands reasonable. 

The last couple of decades have been really hard to find properties which could even cash flow (though, if you cook your numbers enough, you can pretend otherwise). 

Personally, I always purchase properties which allow me to keep the tenants in nice places, at reasonable prices. Of course, I still run into people who want changes made, or special treatment...I tend to pass on renting to them. I've had many long term tenants, some of whom have made improvements on their own, who I try to keep happy, but that doesn't mean my costs don't increase (things like property taxes, insurance, contractors, etc.). They all seem to want a piece of the pie and, unfortunately, the tenant is the one who will pay in the end.

BTW, the same thing happens with government services...we all want "free" health care, "free" education, etc. But we complain about high taxes...guess what, the two are related, and the government only has one real source of income...and they borrow even more in the tax payer's name.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Justaguy he is not talking about upgrades. He is talking about replacing carpet that was second hand when he moved in 8 years ago. This falls under the heading of normal repairs.

I can only say you must be EXTREMELY lucky in your tenants if you think the OP is being unreasonable. I have had a new tenant move into a newly renovated unit, which he told me was the nicest apartment he ever lived in, and in a month the carpet was ruined. It was heavy duty commercial carpet guaranteed against wear for 15 years. But not guaranteed against having cigarette butts ground into it and being walked over with greasy boots. The tenant was a great guy, always paid the rent on time, but worked as a garage mechanic.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I think you read my posting a little too literally, I was being fairly sarcastic. Too many people get into being a landlord and can't make money at it because they don't know what they are doing and lose money. 

Of course, I also know tenants who've moved into "less desirable" neighbourhoods and then complained to their landlord that they see drug users and/or prostitues in the area...as if the landlord could do something about it.


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## SecretHero (Nov 7, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> As a long time landlord if I had a tenant that stayed 8 years, kept the place clean and in good repair and paid the rent on time I would not only buy new carpet I would throw in a big screen TV.
> 
> The property management company must be run by morons. Most of them are.


Yes, rent was paid on time every time. I also never caused any troubles (noise etc...). 
I fixed all small things myself. Only major repair was done on bathroom tiles because it was falling off. And that was done when first moved in.


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## SecretHero (Nov 7, 2011)

sags said:


> Our landlord does a terrific job of maintaining their rental townhomes, but they are getting outdated (1960s) and they are upgrading the interiors to more modern.
> 
> The rent is upgraded as well for the new units, but they allow people to upgrade themselves if they wish to keep their rents down.
> 
> ...


Well, this is an apartment complex. Most people usually stay 1 or 2 years. There are only few that have been living here longer than that. I would definitely do the upgrades myself if i was to live in a town house like you do. $1030 for a 3 bed/3 bath is really good by the way.
Where do you live?


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## SecretHero (Nov 7, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> I don't really understand why you feel entitled to have upgrades. If you don't like the place, or the conditions, you are free to move.
> 
> Not every landlord out there is making a killing off the backs of their tenants, many "investors" overpay for properties, don't understand all the costs involved, and find themselves losing money.
> 
> ...



I completely understand that it is a business and landlords need to make money too.
I have no problem with that. In fact I wish nothing but success in their business. 

I am not sure what made you think that I am asking for “free” upgrades because I deserve it (?) 
I wasn’t given a brand new unit when first moved in. Things will get worn and torn in years. As I mentioned above only replacement was done on bathroom tiles when I first moved in. That’s it. Nothing else.

I am not happy about moving my stuff away either while the carpet is being replaced (if it gets replaced). It is at a point there is nothing I can do to keep it covered unless I get larger Persian rugs. It is completely worn out. Each time I vacuum it the surface comes out. If you place a heavy object on it, it cuts through the carpet. It is more like cardboard. My guess is it is well over 12-13 years old and not heavy duty carpet. I did my best to keep the place nice and clean. 

Since you are a landlord let me give you an example that will make you think.
The unit across the hall had 5 different tenants. Each time a new one moved in it had to be re-painted. The carpet was changed 2 times and last one was hardwood floor. 
It probably had stoves and counters replaced during that time too (plus other minor stuff).

To me it sounds like landlord is taking advantage.

I know I am free to move to somewhere else but I like the location. It is close to everything I need. BTW since I’ve been here we had 4 different owners and 2 different property managements so I know who has been moving along.

So my question was, aren’t the landlords obligated to replace the carpet if it’s in a bad shape (due to health and safety concerns)?

Thanks again!


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## Joe Black (Aug 3, 2015)

I noticed nobody answered the actual question about what legal grounds the OP has against the landlord. My quick Google search indicates that the landlord is responsible for maintenance and repair, although it is not clear to me if carpets would fall under this category (although apparently "flooring" is, so probably the answer is yes). If this is in Ontario, it would appear that the "legal" route is to bring the matter to the Landlord And Tenant Board:

http://settlement.org/ontario/housing/rent-a-home/tenant-rights-and-responsibilities/what-can-i-do-if-the-place-i-rent-needs-repairs/

As per the website, the board might order the landlord to make the repairs, or some other solution.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

From my experience as a landlord it is easier to update a unit when the tenants leave so probably the fact this tenant has been there a long time is the reason the carpets have not been updated.The management has said they can change the carpets but the rents will go up.I know in Ontario when the landlord spends money on renovations they can apply for a increase above the guidelines.So let's assume the OP wants to stay for another 5 years he may find it is more cost effective to pay the carpet costs from his own pocket than end up paying $30-40 a month extra by having the Management pay for it.If you want to file papers to try to force the carpet repair you will likely lose any 'good will' from the landlord and rent will go up anyway.Just my two cents


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Marina is right, trying to replace flooring when someone is living there (and the place is full of furniture) is very difficult. You did move into the place, and got lower rent, because the place was in poorer condition than other places.

Proving the place is a health and safety concern can be a double edged sword, so I'd be careful about going that way. You were offered a nicer place, but refused because it would cost more, don't like your place, but don't want to move, sounds like you want your cake and eat it too. Nicer place, lower rent.

Suing your landlord won't exactly put you into his good books either. Have you suggested sharing the costs? Perhaps he buys the flooring, you install it? Instead of attacking, look for compromise. Have you tried having the place professionally cleaned? A quality carpet cleaning company can do amazing things to carpets. 

As I said, personally I wouldn't have a place in that condition to begin with, but the road you are contemplating isn't a wise one to travel.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

So what? Carpet companies put new carpet in houses and apartments that are occupied all the time. How they handle it is up to them. This does not confront the landlord.

After all the unreasonable posts I have seen from tenants, it feels good to back up a tenant for a change. As far as I am concerned the OP is entitled to new carpet after 8 years with no increase in rent and if he lived in a building of mine he would have gotten it by now.

I'm also surprised that the concept of keeping a good tenant happy seems to go over everyone's head. If you want to crab about the bad ones how about showing some appreciation for the good ones?


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## Joe Black (Aug 3, 2015)

marina628 said:


> From my experience as a landlord it is easier to update a unit when the tenants leave so probably the fact this tenant has been there a long time is the reason the carpets have not been updated.The management has said they can change the carpets but the rents will go up.I know in Ontario when the landlord spends money on renovations they can apply for a increase above the guidelines.So let's assume the OP wants to stay for another 5 years he may find it is more cost effective to pay the carpet costs from his own pocket than end up paying $30-40 a month extra by having the Management pay for it.If you want to file papers to try to force the carpet repair you will likely lose any 'good will' from the landlord and rent will go up anyway.Just my two cents


Is replacing something that has deteriorated to virtually nothing a "renovation"? Seems to me it is just regular maintenance.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> So what? Carpet companies put new carpet in houses and apartments that are occupied all the time. How they handle it is up to them. This does not confront the landlord.
> 
> After all the unreasonable posts I have seen from tenants, it feels good to back up a tenant for a change. As far as I am concerned the OP is entitled to new carpet after 8 years with no increase in rent and if he lived in a building of mine he would have gotten it by now.
> 
> I'm also surprised that the concept of keeping a good tenant happy seems to go over everyone's head. If you want to crab about the bad ones how about showing some appreciation for the good ones?


So, buy his place and renovate it then, it sounds like there has been a lot of transition in ownership.

Face it, you and I know nothing about this situation other than the tenant is unhappy. I've never met a tenant who claims they are a "bad" tenant, for all we know, he may have trashed it himself over the years, as we can't even approach the original owner. Remember how None also claimed to be an excellent tenant, and then went on to discuss with pride how he made life hell for his landlord... Not all bad tenants are ones who make noise...keeping quiet doesn't mean he's good.

You and I both would treat a tenant better than this, especially a good tenant...maybe this isn't such a good tenant and the landlord want him to move of his own accord...in Ontario it is pretty hard to get rid of bad tenants. I suspect that there is more to this story than we are getting from the one complaining...I could be wrong, it could be a series of bad landlords...but the entitlement attitude and not looking for solutions has me suspicious, and I expect there is more to the story. 

As I said, I've never met anyone who admits to being a "bad" tenant, but I've seen plenty in my day.


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

SecretHero, I'm an Ontario landlord. In my opinion, this is a wear and tear issue for your unit only, and should not justify an increase in rent. Also in my opinion, without pictures, this could become a liability issue for the owners. If the carpet has deteriorated to the point that the backing is breaking down in high traffic areas, it could very well become a tripping hazard. Hard to know without seeing it, but you may want to present them with that issue.

Should they replace it, and attempt a rent increase, you may be able to fight it and win before the adjudicating body for your province. 

That said, as a landlord I prefer to do all changes (wouldn't call this a reno) between tenants if it involves tenant co-operation such as clearing a room. With an empty unit, in general, it is less expensive as contractors can work faster, less hassle with legal notice, etc.

Good luck.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Hi All, 

Happy New Year! 

This issue is a little strange, but here's my take on it. I'm a property manager in Ontario that has managed buildings so I may have a good take on the subject. 

The tenant is required to keep their unit in good condition. This specifically includes wear and tear of their apartment. For instance when you moved in the paint was new, but now it is not. If you do not like it, you would have to paint it yourself. Now let's say there is a leak upstairs and a hole is made in the drywall, the landlord is required to repair that. The standard for that repair is actually only to primer. 

For your carpet, the requirement is that there be no tripping hazards, in one building I was working in "repairs" were accomplished multiple times with the use of somewhat matching duct tape to prevent tripping hazards. This is "legal" 

Many people would be shocked with how low the standard for maintenance actually is. 

The theory is that the owner rents the apartment and the tenant uses it up and must therefore improve the wear he has put on it, or move and pay more rent elsewhere for a updated place. 

Bottom line is that renovations cost money and ultimately the tenant has to pay the costs of that improvement either through increased rent or by paying for it themselves. Landlords do not improve units during the course of the tenancy even if that tenancy is 30 years. 

It is also legal to do as your landlord has done and offer to upgrade your unit in exchange for higher rent. 

For those who would say well he doesn't own the place why would he improve the unit? First of all he lives there and he gets to use/enjoy that upgrade. Second, it costs money and time to move. Third if he is paying $300 less an month than a similar unit, that's $3600 per year that could be spend on improvements to his unit, that he gets to determine what colour, and what style etc. From a commercial landlord's perspective if he moves out, and they renovate and raise the rent $300 that is worth $60,000 in increased value for the building at a 5% cap rate. 

In property management we have a name for tenants that pay low rent and don't move. These people are not good for business over time. Your costs increased over time such as property taxes, garbage removal, utilities and the rents have not kept up. Every building has a few apartments where people are paying 50% or even less of market rent. They are called entrenched tenants and there is nothing you can do even though that apartment costs you money every month. 

To be honest, I have no idea why more people can't figure this out, do the math and do the improvements. The landlord is not going to do them, is not required to do them and wants you to leave in some cases because you're getting a steal.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

Well said, Berubeland. There is a cost to everything, including living at a standard you desire, and it increases with inflation. If the landlord's costs are increasing faster than the tenant's controlled rent, over time, even a "good" tenant will generate less pretax profit. Eventually the rental becomes a drain on finances. I know one landlord who has properties in foreclosure for this reason. It may suit the landlord if that tenant leaves and the rent clock can be restarted at a more realistic level. The OP may wish to consider whether he prefers the hassle of moving, or the hassle of paying for his new carpet.


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## SecretHero (Nov 7, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> So, buy his place and renovate it then, it sounds like there has been a lot of transition in ownership.
> 
> Face it, you and I know nothing about this situation other than the tenant is unhappy. I've never met a tenant who claims they are a "bad" tenant, for all we know, he may have trashed it himself over the years, as we can't even approach the original owner. Remember how None also claimed to be an excellent tenant, and then went on to discuss with pride how he made life hell for his landlord... Not all bad tenants are ones who make noise...keeping quiet doesn't mean he's good.
> 
> ...


If I wanted to give hard time to landlord don’t you think I would’ve done it by now instead of waiting very long time for them to come back to me with a BS answer? 
I would’ve walked with a “pride” long time ago if I was the tenant that you think I am.

Collecting rent for 8 years and assuming nothing will be broken is absurd. 
I know some landlords will do anything to avoid making any repairs and use band-aids to keep the cash flow as high as possible. I’ve seen it.

This landlord (property management) probably has 20-30 high and low-rise apartments in the city and I don’t think they care about relationship that they have with tenants.


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## SecretHero (Nov 7, 2011)

Berubeland said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Happy New Year!
> 
> ...


Thanks Berubeland.
I think you are on to something.
I believe these people want me move out so that they can renovate the unit and bring it up to same standards as other units and then rent it higher. Or hand over building to a different investor. I am not sure.

It’ll cost them well over $30 000 to renovate my unit. New floor, walls, electrical installs, counter, Stainless steel appliances, new bathroom etc…the list goes on.

The difference between my rent and the renovated unit is around $175.
$115 difference + electricity (around $40) + indoor parking $20.
I don’t pay electricity it is included in the rent but new tenants get 1 month free rent. 

As I mentioned in above posts my rent has been increasing 3.11% (more than normal amount) each year. Eventually it’ll catch up to what others are paying. Assuming their rent increase is less than mine.


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## SecretHero (Nov 7, 2011)

RCB said:


> SecretHero, I'm an Ontario landlord. In my opinion, this is a wear and tear issue for your unit only, and should not justify an increase in rent. Also in my opinion, without pictures, this could become a liability issue for the owners. If the carpet has deteriorated to the point that the backing is breaking down in high traffic areas, it could very well become a tripping hazard. Hard to know without seeing it, but you may want to present them with that issue.
> 
> Should they replace it, and attempt a rent increase, you may be able to fight it and win before the adjudicating body for your province.
> 
> ...


Site Admin to came and took the pictures. She was also concerned but she is not the one that decides if it gets fixed or not. So they have the pictures.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

There's no way that the renos would cost $30,000. Buildings do not pay retail prices for construction. I get brand new stainless steel appliances for 2K, set of large front loader washer dryer... $1400 with delivery, retail price on sale at Future shop for $2400. 

Paint a three bedroom townhouse including the paint, under $1000. 

So no way they're spending that, not in rental housing.


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## SecretHero (Nov 7, 2011)

Berubeland said:


> There's no way that the renos would cost $30,000. Buildings do not pay retail prices for construction. I get brand new stainless steel appliances for 2K, set of large front loader washer dryer... $1400 with delivery, retail price on sale at Future shop for $2400.
> 
> Paint a three bedroom townhouse including the paint, under $1000.
> 
> So no way they're spending that, not in rental housing.


How about floors? Replacing whole electrical cables & connections? Walls, new bathroom, tiles, fixtures..


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I routinely Reno my properties...$5000 in materials, most of the time significantly less, will redo anything from the studs up (interior only, which includes cupboards, fixtures, and appliances). That's with 15mm laminate flooring too, not the cheap stuff.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

My Husband and I sold a house in 2015 ,it was a beautiful 4 year old home when we bought it and we assumed existing tenants , in the 6 years they lived there ,we put in new driveway ,new deck gave them gift cards ,always did anything they asked.We had not been in the home the last 3 years because there was never any issues ,they seemed very happy even came into our home etc.We asked them for $100 increase in rent after 5 years of paying $1100 plus utiltiies for a newer detached home in Oshawa .I have to admit we were probably the worst 'investors ' as we put huge chunks of money down and didn't do the leveraging most landlords do so we were happy with $1100 when similar homes are renting for $1600.
They fought us on the $100 dollars to the point we had enough and after we won we decided to sell the home anyway.Our Berubeland from this forum assisted us with getting the home sold and these guys out and she can confirm we had to strip the house back to the plywood ,their dog was using the carpets for bathroom ,there was this mysterious substance on all surfaces that to this day we can only guess at.They had estimated 1000 holes in the window sills , probably his attempt to install a security system.These A1 tenants wrecked the place and there were locks on the bedroom doors including two split doors which indicated either somebody locked themselves in and another person kicked in the doors as they were split.We ended up replacing all flooring , two doors , had to put in a new patio door as their big dog jumping on it broke the seal ,paint and plaster so many coats .My husband and our friend did all the work so no labor costs and we spend $9720 in receipts excluding the $1900 cash we paid the friend.
My daughter just moved from an apartment building in Toronto and for over a year the hot water ran to point there was so much steam in the kitchen the ceilings were peeling , 4 forms later and still nothing done , she would get a small shock if she touched the tap when doing dishes so she was doing her dishes in her bathtub in a big tub .She left and they increased the rent by $54 a month .There are some shitty landlords out there for sure but if the big stuff is maintained probably 'decor stuff is small price to pay if you are able to find an affordable place to live.
We pay $1550 plus hydro ,cable and internet for a 635 sq ft condo now as I was not going to pay for another **** hole while my daughter is studying.


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## MMcLaurent (May 1, 2015)

This is a disgusting way to treat loyal custom. I would move out of the complex completely and live somewhere that you will be looked after.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Ok go to any service provider and ask for champagne dreams on your beer budget. I can tell you've never been party to building budgets where we actually have to pay for all those things tenants want with actual money. To continue to provide service, we must make harsh decisions so that we don't go bankrupt. 

The margins in buildings are very thin, similar to grocery stores we make the difference between the cap rate and the mortgage rate, maybe a couple percentage points. 

There are no shortage of great ideas from tenants, I've been hearing them for years. The only problem comes when the landlord says ok we'll do whatever improvement you want but you'll have to pay for whatever your heart desires. Then the landlord is a greedy *******. 

I'd rather not have to make those hard decisions, I'd love to renovate every suite but I can't afford to do it.


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