# Quebec Student Strike.



## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

> Rather, it is about how we distribute resources in a society. Much has been made throughout this business of Quebec’s “progressive” traditions, or the government’s alleged intransigence, as if this could explain the decision of individual demonstrators (a minority, to be sure) to beat people up or attack their property. No. It is learned behaviour. They do it because, experience has taught them, it works. Not only does it invite the admiration of certain radical professors and sections of the media. It confers power. It frightens others into doing what you want.


http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...e-in-quebec-a-premier-surrenders-to-mob-rule/

Usually being the logical sort, I just couldn't get the logic of the student's strike. The relatively piddly amount of additional money annually couldn't come close to loosing a school year and a corresponding year of full employment. This is even more so when educational tax deductions are factored in.

But that was the problem - I was looking at it logically. I've determined this isn't about tuition but ideology - basically how socialist the Quebec system should be. I've also determined that the leadership at many Quebec educational institutions have been complicit in ensuring that courses cannot continue from those who want them. For example, with today's technology, perhaps 80% or more of courses could have been offered over the internet. And apparently, the reason the police did not respond to some illegal blocking of access to educational institutions is because those institutions refused to call them.

Regardless of your feelings on free tuition - Is this the way that we want ideological issues settled? Should those who can simply cause the most disruption and intimidation have their way? Or is the electoral system a more proper forum?


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

I'm not sure how the electoral system could handle this decision, though, unless you mean by referendum. The people elected a party, the party elected a PM, and the PM made budgetary decisions. The students didn't agree with one of those budgetary decisions.

I agree that if the government caves, it sends a signal that students can get whatever they want by striking and protesting, which is not a signal the government wants to send. My father was always convinced that the U.S. Vietnam War was prolonged for years because the U.S. government didn't want to give in to the protesters and show them that they could change foreign policy by marching on Washington and performing acts of civil disobedience. If that's true (and I'm not saying it is, only that the argument is plausible), then the protesters share responsibility for many lives lost on both sides. But on the other hand, what else could they have done to show their disagreement? In the U.S. you're stuck with a president for four years, and wars aren't decided by referendum. You can write to your elected representatives, and I'm sure many people did, but when that doesn't change anything and you're passionate about the cause, I can see the argument for protesting. 

I've always been skeptical of the effectiveness of protest marches and demonstrations in bringing about change, at least in North America, but the last few years have provided ample evidence that it can be an effective tactic in other countries.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I haven't thought much of the student strike. In fact I was barely even aware that it was going on - Stanley Cup playoffs and all that. 

I thought this article was interesting though - definitely "anti-strike" which I tend to agree with.

http://www.givemebackmyfivebucks.com/2012/05/10/why-quebec-students-need-to-stop-striking/


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

It's also worth noting that if you go to any protest march or riot, you will find many participants who have only the most vague understanding of what they are marching for; many of them are not really in it for the cause, they're in it for the fight and the adrenaline rush, the experience of being part of something big, the power of collective action. I participated in Montréal's Earth Day march, the first time in my life I've ever been part of a protest march, and it was indeed an amazing experience. I can see how empowering it can be for people who otherwise feel powerless. But this was a peaceful march; an estimated 300,000 people (although official estimates range to less than half that amount...regardless, even 150,000 is impressive...even 30,000 would be impressive). People were protesting a lot of different things, but the overall gist was "we're fed up with Charest and we're fed up with Harper -- these politicians do not represent our views." 

The leaders of the student groups have been negotiating with the government and it seemed like they had reached agreement over the weekend, but they underestimated the anger and determination of their members, who are evidently not ready to compromise. How well they all understand the issues and the stakes is not clear, though.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

Rex Murphy gave a really good account of the Que student protests - see his account here (on right menu bar) 
http://www.cbc.ca/thenational/about/correspondents/rexmurphy/
He calls it a type of "mob rule" - & he's right IMO. The fact that they were potesting in their underwear seemed somewhat similar to the Doukhobors - but they are anything but pacifists. This is the type of politics that stokes the larger issues of nationalism - they want the Liberals out and their party in.


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

I'm on strike. I'm not going to accept the service I paid for.

Bunch of idiots. 

Like walking into McDonalds, ordering a Big Mac and paying for it, then leaving without taking it and declaring it a strike.

How can anyone take them seriously? Taxpayers already fund 80%+ of their tuition. 

Smoke bombs in the subways?

Would only be fair for the other 99% of Quebec residents to visit these students at home and subject them to the same treatment. 

They smash store windows? Store owner should pay that Gabriel What's his face a visit at home and show him how it's done.

The funny thing is, I truly believe that education should be free. Just not universally free. And it already is free where it counts. The best and brightest are given full scholarships, and even grants that result in more cash than is needed for tuition. Why should taxpayers subsidize those who scrape through high school, and aspire to mediocrity?


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

I don't know how the semester can possibly be saved at this point. And then how do they handle next year's inscription when there will be a new crop of students applying for the same curriculum? I think what I would do is give them one more week to return to classes or the semester would be lost. I would register the names of those who showed up to return to classes, even if protesting students made it impossible to continue with classes. Those students who were prepared to go to class would be placed at the top of the list for next year's courses along with new students. 

Sadly, if the protest continues into the next school year, more force will be required to protect the rights of those wishing to continue their education.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

It's easy to paint this simplistically and ideologically, but if you want to understand some of the nuances that make this conflict more than what it appears on the face of it, here's an essay by one of the strikers explaining why he or she rejected the government's offer. I have no idea whether this person's statements are valid, but this gives you a deeper look into how things appear from the students' point of view. 

http://montreal.mediacoop.ca/story/...ec-government-offer-and-continue-strike/10853


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

I went over the striker's points for why she voted against the government offer:

1) Government Insincerity & Incompetence - Is there anything the government can do to make her believe they are suddenly competent and sincere? Basically she is saying she will vote against any offer, that does not fully comply with student demands because she doesn't like this government. 

2) Negotiation Trickery and Public Opinion Wrangling - Ditto to my last point. There is always public opinion wrangling - that's politics 101. To decide to not accept any offer where such actions have occurred is to doom any opportunity for agreement. 

3) Government Priorities: Tax Breaks to Banks and Subsidies to Mining Corporations - Is it up to student's association to negotiate something as complex as tax policy? ISTM that they have somewhat overestimated their qualifications and mandates.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i found this student's resistance to the government's offer fairly reasonable. What he is saying is what many others have pointed out. Which is that the government didn't roll back the tuition hikes by even one penny. What the government offered was to look at other mandatory student expenses such as student association fees to see, on an annual review basis, whether student costs could be kept in line by cutting some of those other expenses. 

while quebec citiy did offer to cut the 2012/13 student costs in this manner, there is nothing binding upon the government to continue, so i can see why even non-militant students might reject the offer.

it seems to be lost to the rest of canada, but throughout their rallies & marches the students have been denouncing the privatization of medical care, the privatization of hospitals & the privatization of higher education in quebec. They have linked this to the Plan Nord of the charest government, which will spend billions to open quebec's pristine high northland to privately-controlled mining & forest product companies.

many citizens who are not students are gravely concerned with these exact same issues. Along with the crises in medical care & education, one could add the gas fracking issue. We want to see these issues discussed. It just doesn't occur to us to run around in our underwear.

the vast majority of protesting students have been remarkably pacific. Well-known Black Bloc professional anarchists joined themselves to the marching crowds of youths. For sheer violence, i for one thought that the actions of Black Bloc protesters at the 2010 G20 convention in toronto were far more dangerous & far more sinister than anything seen in quebec spring 2012. 

here is what this student says about the tuition hike being just the flashpoint to ignite a big inventory of troublesome issues that date back years:



> Jean Charest is handing out billions of dollars in public funds for his legacy project, Plan Nord, to build roads and extend power lines to open up northern Québec to the mining and forestry industry. The government's $277 million subsidy to extend route 167 north of Chiboubamau, that will lead nowhere other than a future uranium (Matoush project) and diamond mine (Foxtrot project) is just one example that would alone cover tuition increases ...
> 
> I voted against the government's offer and will continue to demonstrate my discontent in the street and elsewhere. I encourage all students, despite your position on tuition fees, to look past the tuition increase debate to see it as a symptom of a larger social malaise that needs realignment. I invite the 200,000 people who I walked with on March 22 to speak out against this "agreement". Show your support for the student movement, which is not comprised of unfocussed spoiled youth who want everything for free - as the government and some media like to portray them. It is a movement that believes, among other things, that having an educated and critical population is good for society. It would and will prevent self-interested governments from handing out public property that doesn't belong to them, over to private interests.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

> it seems to be lost to the rest of canada, but throughout their rallies & marches the students have been denouncing the privatization of medical care, the privatization of hospitals & the privatization of higher education in quebec. They have linked this to the Plan Nord of the charest government, which will spend billions to open quebec's pristine high northland to privately-controlled mining & forest product companies.


It seems as a bit of a hypocritical stance for the student leaders to denounce the privatization of higher education in Quebec when all 3 of them went to expensive private high-schools. Obviously they, or their parents thought the private option was the better choice but now seem to want to deny such options for others.

As for the rest of the points, of course students have a right to peaceful protest but is denying access to education the proper process to make these points? Is this a good way for democratic decisions to be made - a group of mostly teenagers, who let's face it lack significant life experience, causing the most disruption and aggravation possible to a majority who polls show appear to be more on side with the government? And is it even the most effective method -or is it likely to backfire? The Charest government appeared headed for certain defeat before the strike but their popularity has increased substantially since.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

It seems that money to support the students "strike" is starting to flow from unions and student associations in other parts of Canada. 



> In recent weeks, two Ontario locals of the Canadian Union of Public Employees gave a total of $30,000 to the Quebec student movement.
> 
> The local representing some workers at University of Toronto contributed $20,000, while the local at McMaster University gave $10,000.
> 
> ...


http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...th-day/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I heard on French radio that the amount donated, from unions and student's associations outside Quebec, is now over $60,000. This raises a couple of questions. Would Quebec unions or associations be likely to support movements in other parts of Canada? Is this a proper use of union or student association funds? I also have concerns that some groups seem intent on spreading this movement beyond Quebec borders and some small protests have already occurred in cities such as Toronto and Vancouver. Would you like to see this movement spread?


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

_two Ontario locals of the Canadian Union of Public Employees gave a total of $30,000 to the Quebec student movement_

^ I see that now tax payer's money is being channeled into this.
Just perfect.
What else is next?

BTW, just a couple of months ago, some clown from the same organization referenced above was on the Lang O'Leary TV show and went on and on about how the public sector workers union supports community development and champions good social causes.
I see how that makes sense now indeed.


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## upstream (Mar 22, 2012)

"The Child Kings" is absolutley appropriate title for these fools. Thier acting out like a two year old is the furthest thing from an honest protest. They make Quebec look bad. I'm happy that they can be arrested for being criminals and fined now at least.

I absolutley disagree with the notion that higher education should be free. It would be treated like this all the time if there was no sacrifice to get in. What are the rioting Child Kings sacrificing for thier idiotic idea of a cause? Other peoples money, other actual students futures for which they sacrificed, tax payer money, public security, public peace. 

I hope as a result of the new laws the identified, criminalistic, Child King rioters and public abusers involved here can be barred from admission into Canadian higher education facilities without fear of some inanne legal reprisals for the educators. I do think the majority of these life destroying zombie lemmings think they are just doing what some pop culture niche thinks they aught to without understanding a thing themselves. And as such they may eventually grow up, but not all. They should suffer some consequence for thier terrible actions.

Jail them. Fine them. Ban them. Cudos to the students in thier midst with the integrity to continue with thier education despite the attack of the immoral "Child Kings".


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The bigger question is why does it cost so much for an education?

It is entirely possible to "educate" people through online courses and interactive DVDs. It is not only possible, but recent studies have shown it is more effective as a one on one educational model, than stuffing 5,000 students into halls to observe the professor of the class on a television monitor. Contact between professors and students is almost non existent.

The whole Canadian education system is rotten to the core.

I read a report yesterday that almost 50% of Canadian university students can't complete Grade 6 level math, and have to take remedial courses.

Pat the kids on the head, tell their parents they are "special", and move them down the education conveyor belt............has been the standard procedure for quite some time.

Everyone "should" have free education...........because it should cost next to nothing.


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## martinv (Apr 30, 2009)

You are right Sags. Have a look at this: http://singularityhub.com/2012/01/2...olutionize-university-education-with-udacity/ 

and this: http://www.khanacademy.org/ 

Interesting changes, one could say revolutionary.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

sags said:


> The bigger question is why does it cost so much for an education?
> 
> It is entirely possible to "educate" people through online courses and interactive DVDs. It is not only possible, but recent studies have shown it is more effective as a one on one educational model, than stuffing 5,000 students into halls to observe the professor of the class on a television monitor. Contact between professors and students is almost non existent.


^^ that's the ignorant sheep that the media loves to feed. 

you need to talk to some of the graduates from the programs I teach in. 

Students do not want to learn from DVD's. They want humans. Ask them.

Free education is everywhere. I have had many students leave my program with $ in their pocket and no debt.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

*"Casseroles/Pots & Pans"*




*Night Train/Train du Nuit*


" tu diras que c'est l'instinct " 
.


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## Jim9guitars (May 5, 2012)

I'm just a blue collar truck driver that joined this forum out of financial desperation that it might give me some way to get ahead but I can understand where these students are coming from. Not one of them might be able to put it into coherent sentences but I think the term "overall frustration with the current government" (federal mostly, even though all the press keeps pointing at the Provincial scene) is what I feel is the prime mover. It really is getting harder everyday to make ends meet down here, and it's not just the students living on Kraft Dinner that are feeling it.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

Jim9guitars said:


> I'm just a blue collar truck driver that joined this forum out of financial desperation that it might give me some way to get ahead but I can understand where these students are coming from. Not one of them might be able to put it into coherent sentences but I think the term "overall frustration with the current government" (federal mostly, even though all the press keeps pointing at the Provincial scene) is what I feel is the prime mover. It really is getting harder everyday to make ends meet down here, and it's not just the students living on Kraft Dinner that are feeling it.



I'm curious. You have a job, but you still feel the general sense of frustration. Perhaps you can elaborate. What would you like to see different? What would make things better? It may be more appropriate to continue such comments in the thread, "Do young adults have legitimate grievances?" (lower down on this page), if you fall into that (young adult) category.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

It would be pretty risky, but I think Jean Charest's best move would be to call a snap election and make it a de facto referendum on the tuition-fee hike. This would allow the Liberal party to hopefully calm the protests and potentially focus on a single issue instead of their scandal plagued record. After all even if they settle it, the Party Quebecois will likely reverse the decision later. Better to get it over with.


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## Jim9guitars (May 5, 2012)

Spidey said:


> I'm curious. You have a job, but you still feel the general sense of frustration. Perhaps you can elaborate. What would you like to see different? What would make things better? It may be more appropriate to continue such comments in the thread, "Do young adults have legitimate grievances?" (lower down on this page), if you fall into that (young adult) category.


I am in my 50's, I entered the workforce in the late 70's. I made more money per hour during the 80's than I do now, and back then I was guaranteed a 40 hour week. Eveything, and I mean everything, costed far less then, houses, rentals, cars, gas, I had money left over each month and contributed to RRSP's. Now I get sent home if there's not enough work on a given day, on top of getting less per hour. Events beyond my control, and certainly not exclusive to me alone, have caused me to cash out most of my RRSP's and I am finding myself short of money at the end of each month. Employers, including big government used to hire people into full time jobs with benefits for everything they needed, now most of that work is done by contract, which comes with no benefits, less pay, and the contractor gets a cut to boot. My father worked at the same company for 40 years, the most I've gotten is 16 years at one company. I am currently at the 4.5 mark where I work now. No stability.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Spidey said:


> It would be pretty risky, but I think Jean Charest's best move would be to call a snap election and make it a de facto referendum on the tuition-fee hike.


But the whole point is that this has never really been about the tuition fee hike: it's the tuition fee hike in the context of the Charest government's overall budget and political priorities. The students are using the tution hike as a focal point for a much broader protest against the Charest government's policies and priorities. If you go to the protests these days, you'd hardly know there was a tuition hike; it's not on the placards and few are talking about it. That's why the McLean's cover story, for example, is so sensationalist, inaccurate, and divisive. Of course the students aren't striking over $325, nor are they a bunch of lazy kids who simply want to preserve their entitlements. The strike is their expression of a much broader and deeper discontent with the direction that Charest is taking Québec, and they saw it as the most effective way of forcing change without sitting around and waiting for the next election.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

Jim9guitars said:


> I am in my 50's, I entered the workforce in the late 70's. I made more money per hour during the 80's than I do now, and back then I was guaranteed a 40 hour week. Eveything, and I mean everything, costed far less then, houses, rentals, cars, gas, I had money left over each month and contributed to RRSP's. Now I get sent home if there's not enough work on a given day, on top of getting less per hour. Events beyond my control, and certainly not exclusive to me alone, have caused me to cash out most of my RRSP's and I am finding myself short of money at the end of each month. Employers, including big government used to hire people into full time jobs with benefits for everything they needed, now most of that work is done by contract, which comes with no benefits, less pay, and the contractor gets a cut to boot. My father worked at the same company for 40 years, the most I've gotten is 16 years at one company. I am currently at the 4.5 mark where I work now. No stability.


Jim - Being in my 50s and recently laid-off, I can relate somewhat to what you are saying. I thought that this topic may be of interest, so I created a new thread - "The disappearing mid-level job market and the plight of workers", with your quote at the beginning.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

brad said:


> But the whole point is that this has never really been about the tuition fee hike: it's the tuition fee hike in the context of the Charest government's overall budget and political priorities. The students are using the tution hike as a focal point for a much broader protest against the Charest government's policies and priorities. If you go to the protests these days, you'd hardly know there was a tuition hike; it's not on the placards and few are talking about it. That's why the McLean's cover story, for example, is so sensationalist, inaccurate, and divisive. Of course the students aren't striking over $325, nor are they a bunch of lazy kids who simply want to preserve their entitlements. The strike is their expression of a much broader and deeper discontent with the direction that Charest is taking Québec, and they saw it as the most effective way of forcing change without sitting around and waiting for the next election.


I agree with you that the student strike has morphed into a broader social movement. However, whether quitting class, and particularly attempting to prohibit others from doing so is the right arena for this movement is another question. That's where I think if Charest plays his cards right he could suspend the tuition hikes until the next mandate, call an election for August and frame the big question of the election campaign to be a mandate to continue with the tuition increase - something that polls show the majority to be in favor of. It would take some master maneuvering to dipsy-doodle around the other problems that have plagued the Charest government, but other political parties (eg. McGuinty's Liberals) have been very successful by focusing the electorate on a single issue.


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