# Moderna or Pfizer?



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

I just booked to get my shot. They say it will be either Moderna or Pfizer.
Any consensus on which, if either, is considered, the better one".?


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Both good.


----------



## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

jargey3000 said:


> I just booked to get my shot. They say it will be either Moderna or Pfizer.
> Any consensus on which, if either, is considered, the better one".?


We are getting ours today! Pfizer we think it will be but would certainly take either. No opinion other than my wife's comment that Pfizer seems to be more reliable on getting shipments out, so likely higher probability of successfully receiving the second dose.


----------



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

sidenote: I've a friend who's on the fence about getting the vaccine. His argument:
"Well, if everybody else gets it, I won't need to, will I?"


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Don't know. We did not know what we would get until we showed up for our appt. at the pharmacy. Turned out to be Pfizer. 

Just thankful to get the jab...whatever it turned out to be. 

Daughter and husband get theirs today. They seem to know that it will be Pfizer.


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

jargey3000 said:


> sidenote: I've a friend who's on the fence about getting the vaccine. His argument:
> "Well, if everybody else gets it, I won't need to, will I?"


That's likely true providing .....

They don't get covid before everyone else is vaccinated.
Most people are not thinking the same thing.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

jargey3000 said:


> sidenote: I've a friend who's on the fence about getting the vaccine. His argument:
> "Well, if everybody else gets it, I won't need to, will I?"


Tell your friend to get all their affairs in order, because if they end up in the hospital and get put on a ventilator they will be put into an induced coma and about half of the patients don't wake up again.


----------



## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

jargey3000 said:


> sidenote: I've a friend who's on the fence about getting the vaccine. His argument:
> "Well, if everybody else gets it, I won't need to, will I?"


Tell them there's no chance of anything close to "everybody" getting it. 

In the central Vancouver Island area where we live, I no longer admit to having been vaccinated. I am tired of being looked upon as an object of pity, as in "Oh, you poor child. You got sucked in. You have signed your own death warrant. We all thought you were smarter than that." This comes from people of all ages, including those I would expect would want "the jab" (a loathsome term).

One couple I talked to (87 and 84 years old) pretty much told me I was crazy for giving in. They claimed to have done many hours of due diligence research and would never allow any of the vaccines anywhere near them. Another couple, mid-70s, said much the same. Someone I hardly know, but who I met while he was on vacation in BC two years ago, called me from Regina urging me not to be vaccinated since doing so would be inimical to my health.

We are all being bombarded on a daily basis with material such as shown in the photo. In the Philippines, where vaccines of Chinese origin are being rolled out at a glacial pace, polls suggest that close to 70% of the population will politely decline. I would guess that, in the end, no more than about 5% of world population will be vaccinated.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Nice picture....

Give them a bong, sandals, "peace out" t-shirts, bongo drums, and a 30 pound bag of Oreo cookies and they can contemplate the world 🤡


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Mukhang pera said:


> In the central Vancouver Island area where we live, I no longer admit to having been vaccinated. I am tired of being looked upon as an object of pity, as in "Oh, you poor child. You got sucked in. You have signed your own death warrant. We all thought you were smarter than that." This comes from people of all ages, including those I would expect would want "the jab" (a loathsome term).


Really? I'd gladly discuss with those that would say "you got sucked in". 



Mukhang pera said:


> We are all being bombarded on a daily basis with material such as shown in the photo.


I'm never bombared by that type of fake news ... guess I'm not looking for it either. I guess if you talk to people that reject science ... sure, they'd probably think those things ... and the world is flat too!


----------



## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

cainvest said:


> Really? I'd gladly discuss with those that would say "you got sucked in".


I have tried discussion and given up. It's an issue like politics or religion. No way to convince anyone of anything. Only serves to generate hostility.



cainvest said:


> I'm never bombared by that type of fake news ... guess I'm not looking for it either. I guess if you talk to people that reject science ... sure, they'd probably think those things ... and the world is flat too!


I find it unavoidable. If one reads on a variety of internet fora, one comes across all variety of opinions, whether one agrees with them or not. Not reading or watching anything, or talking to anyone, is a way, I suppose, guaranteed to prevent one from being exposed to fake news. Living in splendid isolation has some merit.


----------



## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

how come no one ever questions the maker of the flu vaccine or the contents of it?


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Mortgage u/w said:


> how come no one ever questions the maker of the flu vaccine or the contents of it?


Because they've been around for so long, nothing new about them.


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Mukhang pera said:


> I have tried discussion and given up. It's an issue like politics or religion. No way to convince anyone of anything. Only serves to generate hostility.


I guess it would get tiresome if it happened often. I personally don't know anyone who is against it but have no doubt some strangers would be.




Mukhang pera said:


> I find it unavoidable. If one reads on a variety of internet fora, one comes across all variety of opinions, whether one agrees with them or not. Not reading or watching anything, or talking to anyone, is a way, I suppose, guaranteed to prevent one from being exposed to fake news. Living in splendid isolation has some merit.


Sure some are against it, always happens but I see the vast majority as pro-vax.


----------



## d00little (Jul 2, 2017)

cainvest said:


> Because they've been around for so long, nothing new about them.


The type of vaccine may be the same, but the vaccine is updated every year, so it's really a new vaccine. There are also different vaccine manufacturers, but nobody cares.


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

d00little said:


> The type of vaccine may be the same, but the vaccine is updated every year, so it's really a new vaccine. There are also different vaccine manufacturers, but nobody cares.


No, not really ... "the mixture" is targeted to the strains believed to be most prevalent for that year but the underlying vaccines are well established.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Mortgage u/w said:


> how come no one ever questions the maker of the flu vaccine or the contents of it?


They do all the time, even health professionals.

It's actually in their (Ontario nurses) contract that they don't need to get a flu shot, or even wear a mask. Take a note of the date, 1 year before COVID19, the nurses union was fighting against vaccinations and masking.

""A group of hospitals in Toronto, Canada, must abandon a policy of forcing healthcare workers to wear surgical masks during the flu season if they have not received the vaccine, an arbitrator has ruled.

The Ontario Nurses Association successfully argued that the requirement was unreasonable, illogical, and a breach of its collective agreement. That agreement stipulated that no nurse could be forced to accept the flu vaccination."









Flu vaccination: Toronto hospitals cannot implement staff “vaccinate or mask” policy, says ruling


A group of hospitals in Toronto, Canada, must abandon a policy of forcing healthcare workers to wear surgical masks during the flu season if they have not received the vaccine, an arbitrator has ruled. The Ontario Nurses Association successfully argued that the requirement was unreasonable...




www.bmj.com




I've heard a lot of nonsense from "health professionals" and "experts", which is why I don't automatically accept whatever they say.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

It is a choice. Make your choice. Live with the consquences.

No different than anything else in life.

I have a niece whose husband does not believe in covid. Thinks it is a hoax. Devours all the facebook conspiracy theory nonsense....right down to world Government and mark of the devil stuff. Don't care about his opinion but he does try to spread it about and convince others about it.

He needs to visit some of the GTA ICU's or speak with someone on an ICU team.


----------



## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

cainvest said:


> Because they've been around for so long, nothing new about them.


Actually, its new every year......yet no one bothers to question it because we no longer have headlines about it in the media. Remember H1N1?? Well, I invite you to google Flu Vaccine strain and the first strain will look very familiar.

Now that Covid is the hot topic, all the skeptics are out again.

You either believe in your government and health officials or you don't. 

New flu vaccine strains are developed on a yearly basis - takes just about the same time to develop as it did for the COVID19-SARS strain we're all talking about.

Developing the vaccine is the easy part. I like to believe the Covid vaccine was developed before the media got a hold of the story. What takes time is the trial and approval. The approval was fast tracked. The trial was not. WHO, FDA etc, would never approve a medication if the proper tests and procedures were not followed.

So is it safe? About as safe as any other vaccine ever developed.

my 2cents.


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Mortgage u/w said:


> New flu vaccine strains are developed on a yearly basis - takes just about the same time to develop as it did for the COVID19-SARS strain we're all talking about.


No, new flu strains really don't happen often but which flu strains take hold for a given year does. Each year they take a "best guess" as to the dominate strains coming and mix the shot to target those strains. Normally the yearly shots cover three or four strains, depending on which shot you get.

Edit: Here's some quick info I found, 

*It’s a common misconception that a new strain of flu develops every year.*
_The fact is there are already over 60 known flu viruses that have been identified and the predominance of one or any of them changes from year to year. Every year in January, teams at the World Health Organization (WHO) analyze data submitted from health authorities in various countries to determine which flu strains are the most common or widespread at that point. This information is then used to develop the seasonal influenza vaccine—composed of two strains from the A type and one strain from the B type—that will be widely distributed later that year in November. Despite the 10-month lag, the flu strains which are active in January are usually still predominant in November, a fact which counters the common argument that a vaccine “based on last year’s flu won’t help me this year.”
*Occasionally, a new flu strain will appear, such as the H1N1 strain in 2009*
This causes a higher-than-normal incidence or severity of flu. The H1N1 strain is still active and it makes up part of the flu vaccine developed for this coming year.
The fact that the flu changes from one year to the next is not a cause for concern, especially if you get vaccinated. Plus, getting your flu shot every year helps you increase your immunity to a number of different flu strains and not just the three most common strains that are active this year._


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Mukhang pera said:


> ... Tell them there's no chance of anything close to "everybody" getting it.


Sad but true. 




Mukhang pera said:


> ... We are all being bombarded on a daily basis with material such as shown in the photo. In the Philippines, where vaccines of Chinese origin are being rolled out at a glacial pace, polls suggest that close to 70% of the population will politely decline. I would guess that, in the end, no more than about 5% of world population will be vaccinated.


At least in the Philippines there have been vaccine scandals so for better or worse, there is a basis for being hesitant.

Canada, OTOH AFAICT has only had a few bad batches of vaccine.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Mortgage u/w said:


> how come no one ever questions the maker of the flu vaccine or the contents of it?


Interesting as I have people telling me on a regular basis how the flu vaccine is a money grab by the makers.
They also usually say they get the flu the few times they have taken the vaccine.



Cheers


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> Interesting as I have people telling me on a regular basis how the flu vaccine is a money grab by the makers.
> They also usually say they get the flu the few times they have taken the vaccine.


Most of the time people say "I got the flu" they likely just got a cold. Most people don't understand that they're different viruses.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest said:


> That's likely true providing .....
> 
> They don't get covid before everyone else is vaccinated.
> Most people are not thinking the same thing.


All the clinical trials indicate that some vaccinated people can still get infected by the virus. Infected people have some chance of infecting others. So I would not say that everyone else being vaccinated is great protection. Some immunocompromised people may have to bear that cross, though.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

jargey3000 said:


> sidenote: I've a friend who's on the fence about getting the vaccine. His argument:
> "Well, if everybody else gets it, I won't need to, will I?"


I had someone say the same thing. I told them that the person who gets the vaccine can still get covid and spread it, but will not die. If they don't get the vaccine, others can still spread it to them and their outcome can still be the same. So if they want to wait, I am happy to take their vaccine. It's only hurting them.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Essentially no difference between vaccines


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Essentially no difference between vaccines


Do you have a link to the actual study. I think that is really good data.
It's important that all the vaccines seem to have similar rates. I think it's interesting that the mRNA's have such a large interval, it is possible with more data they could be even more similar.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Do you have a link to the actual study. I think that is really good data.
> It's important that all the vaccines seem to have similar rates. I think it's interesting that the mRNA's have such a large interval, it is possible with more data they could be even more similar.


Here you go.








Risk of rare blood clotting higher for COVID-19 than for vaccines | University of Oxford


COVID-19 leads to a several-times higher risk of cerebral venous thrombosis (CVT) blood clots than current COVID-19 vaccines.




www.ox.ac.uk


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Here you go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great, thanks. This is important and there's another interesting bit buried in here:

Among Pfizer/Moderna vaccinations, CVT occurred in 4 in a million
Among AstraZeneca vaccinations, CVT occurred in 5 in a million
Those are practically the same rate.

For this particular, dangerous kind of blood clotting, the risk of AZ appears to be about the same as the Pfizer shot. There is a misconception that AZ is somehow more dangerous... not true.

All of my older family members have already had the Pfizer shot. All of my friends who are doctors have gotten Pfizer. *The danger with AZ is really not any different*.


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Great, thanks. This is important and there's another interesting bit buried in here:
> 
> Among Pfizer/Moderna vaccinations, CVT occurred in 4 in a million
> Among AstraZeneca vaccinations, CVT occurred in 5 in a million
> ...


If the above is true then why the 55+ age limitation?


----------



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

OP HERE....deleted


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

cainvest said:


> If the above is true then why the 55+ age limitation?


All the vaccines so far can cause blood clots including Pfizer & Moderna. Of course you have over 50x as much chance of contracting AIDS in the future than a blood clot from recieving a Covid vaccine...something lost on our alarmist media.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Eder said:


> All the vaccines so far can cause blood clots including Pfizer & Moderna. Of course you have over 50x as much chance of contracting AIDS in the future than a blood clot from recieving a Covid vaccine...something lost on our alarmist media.


Well, it doesn't really matter what the media thinks in this case. Regulators are preventing pharmacies from administering AZ to people outside this age range. Frankly, I think they should relax that and maybe have an additional health warning for people under 55 to cover informed consent. There are anecdotes about people under 55 begging for a vaccination and pharmacists having to turn them away.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Well, it doesn't really matter what the media thinks in this case. Regulators are preventing pharmacies from administering AZ to people outside this age range. Frankly, I think they should relax that and maybe have an additional health warning for people under 55 to cover informed consent. There are anecdotes about people under 55 begging for a vaccination and pharmacists having to turn them away.


How do you address "informed consent" when people are unable to understand the information they're given?


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Describe it in plainer language, what the risk is? There is a very slightly elevated risk of blood clots, but it is much lower risk than other common alternatives and lower risk of blood clots than if you don't get vaccinated and risk infection. The government is being paternalistic and making the decision about whether to use the AZ vaccine for people.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Describe it in plainer language, what the risk is? There is a very slightly elevated risk of blood clots, but it is much lower risk than other common alternatives and lower risk of blood clots than if you don't get vaccinated and risk infection. The government is being paternalistic and making the decision about whether to use the AZ vaccine for people.


the AZ is media hype and ignorance run amok.
The risk from AZ & JNJ is statistically the same as from Moderna & Pfizer.
It's slightly elevated from normal risk.

It's orders of magnitude lower than the risk from birth control pills, and it's thousands of times lower than the risk of dying from COVID.
The person who discovered it has been unequivicable that it is a small risk and should cause no hesitation.

I think this shows a problem, if scientists share data, it will be misused and taken out of context. I don't think the solution is to not share data, and some people, even "experts" remain stubbornly on the wrong side of the data.
No solution, just an observation.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Maybe people are aware of the "low risk" and choose not to accept even that small level of risk when they can reduce the risk to zero by not taking it.

I waited for Pfizer and got the first shot today. People have to protect themselves until they get fully vaccinated and the AZ vaccine has other problems.

It is far less effective than the MRNA vaccines, especially with only the first dose.

As far as I am concerned the AZ vaccine is like wearing Saran Wrap as a condom. It might work.....but I wouldn't want to rely on it.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

AZ now available to 40+ in Ontario.


----------



## leoc2 (Dec 28, 2010)

Money172375 said:


> AZ now available to 40+ in Ontario.


Here is a link:








Province expected to open AstraZeneca to 40+


Read the full story and comment on Tbnewswatch.com




www.tbnewswatch.com


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> AZ now available to 40+ in Ontario.


You can't book an appointment. if you're 40


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

The provincial website now has a 40+ dropdown which leads you to the pharmacies that have it and their respective booking portals. I'm sure they'll update their sites today. Shoppers, Costco, Rexall etc


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> The provincial website now has a 40+ dropdown which leads you to the pharmacies that have it and their respective booking portals. I'm sure they'll update their sites today. Shoppers, Costco, Rexall etc


Can't wait, this is a no brainer for those who qualify.


----------



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

as I mentioned, my notice said I would get either Moderna or Pfizer. 
I dunno why.....but I think I'd rather get Pfizer....


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The US has more vaccine than demand for it. I suspect they will allow Pfizer to ship more vaccine to Canada shortly.


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> The US has more vaccine than demand for it. I suspect they will allow Pfizer to ship more vaccine to Canada shortly.


As of last week, Pfizer already shipping an extra 8M more doses to Canada.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The US has more vaccine than demand for it. I suspect they will allow Pfizer to ship more vaccine to Canada shortly.


It's more complicated than that.
Many doses were manufactured under federal order, which means they can't just ship them somewhere else.
Ideally they'll get it sorted out soon, there is a lot of money for the US if we can open our border.


----------

