# Gas Hot Water tank



## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Just purchased a new hot water tank and now I'm double-thinking my decision.

Rheem Performance Platinum with a 12 year warranty. Energy Star. High efficiency
It has smart technology - but do I need it?
It needs to be plugged into the wall - for the Honeywell electronic ignition and the electric motor for the damper. Damper closes when the water is not heating, so it reduces the water from cooling too quickly. I guess this is what makes it high efficiency.

But what will happen in the event of a power outage? Will the thermostat turn off the gas? Will it be able to turn it back on? If the gas is still heating the water and the damper can't open, will it be dangerous?

Thinking of switching to the lower version. Performance Plus 9 year warranty. Not Energy Star. Medium efficiency.
No smart tech. Does not need to be plugged into the wall (I think). No damper. Less bells and whistles the better.

Now for the installation. Home Depot's installation contractor has very high ratings - for carpet cleaning. The latest review for hot water tank installation was five years ago. Their services included carpet cleaning, duct cleaning, dry vent cleaning, mattress cleaning and water tank installation. It doesn't look like water tank installation is their principle operation. I left an e-mail asking years of experience installing hot water tanks.

Furthermore, they gave me a quote for total supply and installation. I googled what the typical labour cost for installing a hot water tank so I was expecting something in the $300+ range. Factoring out the cost of the water tank I had already paid from the total supply and installation, it looks like their labour is around $500+.

So, your thoughts?
1)Smart Tech or no?

2) Other good reliable brands? My old water heater is a GE. Warranty for 12 years but lasted 22. Rheem's name keeps popping up when I google water heater brands.

3) Good reliable and experienced hot water tank installation contractors for Toronto area (east)?

Thanks.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

Buy a tankless water heater. Now, that's technology, and true energy efficiency.
Forget about the nineteen century water barrels - there is nothing "efficient" about them


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

smihaila said:


> Buy a tankless water heater. Now, that's technology, and true energy efficiency.
> Forget about the nineteen century water barrels - there is nothing "efficient" about them


I thought about that and spoke to someone before making the purchase.

Some of the cons are
1) need to upgrade your breaker box for a dedicated line to the tankless water heater.
2) too many people using hot water at the same time and nobody gets enough
3) I have 1/2in pipes. Eventhough it could work, 2) will be a problem.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Here's another strange phenomenon.
I've been trying to drain the old tank all day. I have shut the cold water supply going in. Using towels to soak up the wet carpet and then washing (in cold) and drying them. When I hear the rinse water turn on in the washer, also hear water entering the water tank. So somehow when the cold water is running somewhere, it's letting water into the tank too. The water inlet valve is totally shut tightly. I can stop the washer, but we can't stop brushing out teeth, flushing the toilet or washing the dishes. Doing any of those will start to fill the old water tank again.

Update: When a cold water tap is turned on somewhere, water in the hot water supply line leaving the tank drains into the empty tank.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

So some plumbing strangeness. Old tank valves can be cranky. Sit untouched for more than a decade, then we expect they work fine. How about the over pressure relief valve - does it lift open ok?

Then the bottom of tank drain sounds like open. 

Trying to think where other water s coming from - maybe a reverse osmosis or other water filter? They rely on incoming pressures, and have a downstream pressure tank that could push water backwards if incoming water pressure drops.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Tostig said:


> Just purchased a new hot water tank and now I'm double-thinking my decision.
> 
> Rheem Performance Platinum with a 12 year warranty. Energy Star. High efficiency
> It has smart technology - but do I need it?
> ...


Most new gas tanks require a power source. The high efficiency units tend to have a blower to emit flue gases.

does your current unit exhaust up a chimney or out a side wall through PVC?

installation Costs cover drainage and removal of the old tank, No?

when comparing costs for installation, be sure to compare costs for an electric tank install vs a gas tank install. I would think the cost for electric is lower, so don’t be put off by the quoted fee.

not sure you need a smart tank. As for the power outages you mention….the unit will likely not heat with the power off…..but really, that shouldn’t be a concern. How often does that happen? And yes, there are safety features built into it, that will fire it up right away once the power is restored. I’d buy the unit with the longest warranty on the tank itself. Although these days, who knows…..the power control board may quite before the tank ever leaks. Don’t expect to get 22 years out of the next unit.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

Is washing machine set to warm? If so the in machine mixing valve will push hot water out the cold line if no pressure on the cold side of the mixing valve. Bet that is where the water dripping to your tank is coming from


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

When I replaced my water tank I installed an electric. You only have to look at your gas bill and see that the carbon tax is now about 50% of the gas used and is slated to increase several hundred percent until 2030. No carbon tax on electric.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

like_to_retire said:


> When I replaced my water tank I installed an electric. You only have to look at your gas bill and see that the carbon tax is now about 50% of the gas used and is slated to increase several hundred percent until 2030. No carbon tax on electric.


What province are you in?


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Money172375 said:


> What province are you in?


Ontario


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

like_to_retire said:


> Ontario


I think you’ll still be ahead with gas. Electricity prices are also bound to rise. Gas also heats faster meaning less run time. At current rates, gas is way more cheaper to operate.


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## spiritwalker2222 (Nov 7, 2017)

Don't get tankless, waste of money and water (have to run taps longer).


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

spiritwalker2222 said:


> Don't get tankless, waste of money and water (have to run taps longer).


agreee. Mixed feedback from people who have them. Source water is too cold in Canada. 
the heat pump models thst capture heat from the surrounding air might catch on. I’d consider one if my tank was in an unfinished basement….they tend to make the room a few degrees colder.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Tostig said:


> I thought about that and spoke to someone before making the purchase.
> 
> Some of the cons are
> 1) need to upgrade your breaker box for a dedicated line to the tankless water heater.
> ...


We love our tankless. We got it about 5 years ago. It's freaking cold where are I am much of the year too. It takes about 45 seconds from the further pipe in our house to warm up enough, it's a little more water, but the cost savings for heat went down immediately each month I think. We were just using the colder water to help water plants.

The piece we love about tank less, is that you never run out of hot water. You are right that multiple people using hot water at the same time can be a problem, but that can be easily worked around. We hardly ever had more than one person showering at the same time anyways, but we did have a problem with everyone wanting to take a long shower or bath and then running out of hot water. Now, one person can run a hot bath, and while soaking another can use another shower. Same with laundry and the dishwasher, we always did that at different times anyways. It used to be a problem where someone would do their laundry while having a shower, and the next person had cold water. We had dual hot water tanks before the tankless.

One con is the descaling of the tank, so that's a little bit of pain (we hate maintenance), but we do it yearly, and found you can even hire some apparently to do it for you.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Ponderling said:


> Is washing machine set to warm? If so the in machine mixing valve will push hot water out the cold line if no pressure on the cold side of the mixing valve. Bet that is where the water dripping to your tank is coming from


We always wash in cold.
The good news is that there was no leak throughout the night. My worse fear was that the backward flow from the hot water outlet would overflow the drain bucket but that didn't happen. When I got up this morning used only the cold water tap for brushing teeth, and I had a glass of water boiled from last night to splash on my face. All my morning routine with only the cold water. And yup, the drain bucket started to fill again, but not much.

I'll have to remember to ask the installer about this.


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## spiritwalker2222 (Nov 7, 2017)

Plugging Along said:


> One con is the descaling of the tank, so that's a little bit of pain (we hate maintenance), but we do it yearly, and found you can even hire some apparently to do it for you.


The tankless we have tells us when to descale. It hasn't told us to do that yet and it's 4 years old.

Our natural gas usage (family of 3) to heat the hot water in our old house with a tank was $6 per moth. Don't see much of, if any ROI for a 3K tankless system.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

I got a new gas water tank a couple of years ago. I talked to a few gas/HVAC outfits and all of them advised against high efficiency water tanks. They said the advantage was minimal and costs of units and installation excessive. They looked at tankless but the area I had to work with was not convenient for the units and their venting needs and I would have needed to increase my gas feed pipe. I wound up with a regular "standard efficiency" natural draft tank and it works great.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

spiritwalker2222 said:


> The tankless we have tells us when to descale. It hasn't told us to do that yet and it's 4 years old.
> 
> Our natural gas usage (family of 3) to heat the hot water in our old house with a tank was $6 per moth. Don't see much of, if any ROI for a 3K tankless system.


I don't if our tells us or not. I know my spouse had does it every couple of years. I thought it was supposed to be yearly, and he misses often, but am not sure. We had two smaller tank water heaters before. We were replacing one every 6 years or so(I think about $500-600 a time, plus install usually around $150). I think we found about $15 difference per month when we first installed in (based at that time 3 adults, and 2 kids). Our tankless was net about $3000 including some government rebate plus costco cards. 

Doing some rough math, if our tankless water heater last 20+ years,
Tank water heater costs - $120 /year (took an average of the costs for replacement amortized) X20 years = 2400
Water saving = $180 year X 20 = 3600
Savings with tankless is about $3k over 20 years, (I know it doesn't factor in the time value of money)
For our water usage, the breakeven was about 10 years. which was just around when I see our kids moving out out. So it will be a little less of a saving then. For us, it was a better choice. We have three people that like to take long hot baths. I sometimes take two baths in a day. It was more the knowing we will never run out of hot water. Less arguments for two teens who seem to live in the bathroom.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

gardner said:


> I got a new gas water tank a couple of years ago. I talked to a few gas/HVAC outfits and all of them advised against high efficiency water tanks. They said the advantage was minimal and costs of units and installation excessive. They looked at tankless but the area I had to work with was not convenient for the units and their venting needs and I would have needed to increase my gas feed pipe. I wound up with a regular "standard efficiency" natural draft tank and it works great.


We've decided on the standard efficiency gas water tank. The high efficiency tank needs to be within 18 feet of an electrical outlet for the motorized damper and the electronic ignition. And it's got wifi capabilities. I don't need those bells and whistles.

The installation contractor, or should I say, sub contractor has 15 years of hot water heater installation experience.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

I think I figured out why there is water draining from the hot water line into the tank.

In bathroom and kitchen faucets, dishwashers and washers, the hot and cold come out of the same port. Normally, the hot water line would be filled with pressurized hot water. Now that I've drained the tank, the hot water line is empty. So when the cold water is running, some of the flow bleeds past the valve inside the faucet and into the empty hot water line all the way back to the water tank. Doesn't happen when the toilet flushes because there is no hot water going there.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> I don't if our tells us or not. I know my spouse had does it every couple of years. I thought it was supposed to be yearly, and he misses often, but am not sure. We had two smaller tank water heaters before. We were replacing one every 6 years or so(I think about $500-600 a time, plus install usually around $150). I think we found about $15 difference per month when we first installed in (based at that time 3 adults, and 2 kids). Our tankless was net about $3000 including some government rebate plus costco cards.
> 
> Doing some rough math, if our tankless water heater last 20+ years,
> Tank water heater costs - $120 /year (took an average of the costs for replacement amortized) X20 years = 2400
> ...


What do you think caused the failure on your old tanks after 6 years. I’ve never had a Unit fail. Ours always lasted 10+ years, then we moved.

our current unit is electric. Built in 2009. I’m thinking of changing it soon, as we don’t have a floor drain in our finished basement.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> What do you think caused the failure on your old tanks after 6 years.


With two units, one changed every six years means they're lasting 12 years if their demise is equally alternating.

I'm getting at least 15+ years out of my regular gas models.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Tankless are overrated.

New HW tanks are more efficient and don't lose that much heat. Shut off the breaker and you still have warm water a day or 2 later. Plus in winter, and "lost" heat helps warm up your house so it's recovered.

I have electric HW tank. When it fails I'll replace it myself and save the labour. Quick release fitting and/or Sharkbite and it will take less than an hour.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

HappilyRetired said:


> New HW tanks are more efficient and don't lose that much heat.


Not really for the cheap ones. Energy star at a minimum for "somewhat" good.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> What do you think caused the failure on your old tanks after 6 years. I’ve never had a Unit fail. Ours always lasted 10+ years, then we moved.
> 
> our current unit is electric. Built in 2009. I’m thinking of changing it soon, as we don’t have a floor drain in our finished basement.


we had two smaller tanks, each tank would be replaced at 11-12 years old individually, but just how the timing was,we alternated changing them that worked out to a new tank every 5 or 6 years.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Tostig said:


> Just purchased a new hot water tank and now I'm double-thinking my decision.
> 
> Rheem Performance Platinum with a 12 year warranty. Energy Star. High efficiency
> It has smart technology - but do I need it?
> It needs to be plugged into the wall - for the Honeywell electronic ignition and the electric motor for the damper. Damper closes when the water is not heating, so it reduces the water from cooling too quickly. I guess this is what makes it high efficiency.


No, what makes it high efficiency is it sucks all the heat out of the gas, which is why it need a fan to exhaust it. 
Go touch your exhaust pipe, it's not not.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> No, what makes it high efficiency is it sucks all the heat out of the gas, which is why it need a fan to exhaust it.
> Go touch your exhaust pipe, it's not not.


Nope, high efficiency is still pretty poor (.67) and doesn't mean they are power vent (exhaust fan) style.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Nope, high efficiency is still pretty poor (.67) and doesn't mean they are power vent (exhaust fan) style.





cainvest said:


> Nope, high efficiency is still pretty poor (.67) and doesn't mean they are power vent (exhaust fan) style.


 source?
Conventional sits that low, but high Efficiency are typically closer to .90.





High-Efficiency Condensing Gas Tank Water Heaters | A. O. Smith


Shop high-efficiency condensing gas tank water heaters by A. O. Smith. Our most efficient gas tank water heater for your home. Easy installation, highly efficient, long lasting and engineered for reliability.




www.hotwater.com





Furnaces are higher, but arguably if your heating bill is low high vs mid is a bit of a trade off.
My last house had a dual burner and we found running the small burner continuously was WAY more comfortable, with no significant increase in cost.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> source?
> Conventional sits that low, but high Efficiency are typically closer to .90.
> 
> 
> ...


Advertising is my source. Check the home depot website, they state models with .67 as high efficiency .. I believe the minimum rating to get energy star rating.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

Money172375 said:


> What do you think caused the failure on your old tanks after 6 years. I’ve never had a Unit fail. Ours always lasted 10+ years, then we moved ...


Good question.

For me it's been an electric that was going strong after ten years (it came with the house with no indication I can remember of age), gas with power vent that was going on seventeen years (sold with house) and the gas one just replaced that had fifteen years on it.


Cheers


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Let me throw an octopus onto the ice and offer that electric can be an excellent option for some.

While they typically have longer recovery than gas and operational costs are always higher, I offer that people don't calculate operational costs fully.

In the case where the furnaces have been converted to high efficiency, which is pretty much everybody, an electric water heater will allow for sealing of the chimney. Having a four inch permanent hole in your roof, designed to exhaust hot air, has to cost something.

... And, electric heaters are cheap as chips.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

TomB16 said:


> And, electric heaters are cheap as chips.


In addition, as I pointed out upthread, there's no carbon tax on electricity bills. Wait until the carbon tax increases a few hundred percent on gas and we'll see what people have to say about gas being cheaper than electric water heaters. 

ltr


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Most competent DIYers can replace an electric HW tank themselves saving more money. Plus in many cases moving away from under the chimney that a gas HW tank required allows you to situate the tank in a more convenient location, freeing up basement space and/or placing it directly under bathrooms and kitchens shortening the time required to get hot water to the tap.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

In MB the average household hot water costs per year are,

Gas (.67 EF) $162
Electric $330

MB has one of the lowest kWh rates, some other provinces are 25-100% higher. Gas costs likely vary by province as well.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Those numbers seem low but, OK.

That is an annual saving of 168. How much do you think your heating bill would increase if you cut a 4 inch hole in your ceiling to the outdoors? In the case of a chimney, it's worse than a hole because it is higher than your ceiling, is kept warm, and is designed to updraft at all times.

A gas power vent heater will also increase heating cost because it is going to exhaust a lot of combustion air, causing the same volume of makeup air to be brought in from outdoors. It will be a lot less than a standard efficiency heater, though.

The high efficiency heater has the advantage of not requiring heated combustion air so it is directly comparable to an electric heater.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Returned our Rheem hot water tank. Cancelled our installation appointment.

We now have tankless and a new furnace. Waiting for Monday to install the heat pump.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

TomB16 said:


> Those numbers seem low but, OK.


Yes, likely the electric will be in the $400-$600 range per year for other provinces, our electricity is cheap here.



TomB16 said:


> That is an annual saving of 168. How much do you think your heating bill would increase if you cut a 4 inch hole in your ceiling to the outdoors? In the case of a chimney, it's worse than a hole because it is higher than your ceiling, is kept warm, and is designed to updraft at all times.


Good question, might be a study on chimney losses but I haven't seen it. A lot of that would depend on the house and what type of climate you live in.



TomB16 said:


> A gas power vent heater will also increase heating cost because it is going to exhaust a lot of combustion air, causing the same volume of makeup air to be brought in from outdoors. It will be a lot less than a standard efficiency heater, though.


Very likely power vent will be much better, the air exchange only occurs when running.



TomB16 said:


> A gas power vent heater will also increase heating cost The high efficiency heater has the advantage of not requiring heated combustion air so it is directly comparable to an electric heater.


By high efficiency I gather you mean direct vent? Yes, no air exchange there.

In the end one has to look at all costs,

installation
required modifications
heater price
longevity
energy use


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> Let me throw an octopus onto the ice and offer that electric can be an excellent option for some ...


True ... though of those I have talked to, it's usually Quebecers that it works for.




TomB16 said:


> ... In the case where the furnaces have been converted to high efficiency, which is pretty much everybody, an electric water heater will allow for sealing of the chimney. Having a four inch permanent hole in your roof, designed to exhaust hot air, has to cost something ...


Possibly ... but if one already has the PVC pipes for the furnace, why wouldn't the gas water heater use the same pipes?




TomB16 said:


> ... And, electric heaters are cheap as chips.


YMMV ... I've seen as small a difference as eleven percent more to as much as one hundred percent more for the gas water heater.


Cheers


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

HappilyRetired said:


> Most competent DIYers can replace an electric HW tank themselves saving more money. Plus in many cases moving away from under the chimney that a gas HW tank required allows you to situate the tank in a more convenient location, freeing up basement space and/or placing it directly under bathrooms and kitchens shortening the time required to get hot water to the tap.


Where the home owner does it ... maybe. 
The electric HW tanks I have seen or owned have all been close to the furnace, no matter where the kitchen/bathrooms are.

Pretty much the same for the gas HW tanks, which I've seen to share the venting, whether it's a chimney or PVC piping.


Cheers


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> How much do you think your heating bill would increase if you cut a 4 inch hole in your ceiling to the outdoors?


Why would I want to cut a 4 inch hole when I already have a furnace and gas HW tank without the four inch hole in the roof?

Cheers


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

cainvest said:


> By high efficiency I gather you mean direct vent? Yes, no air exchange there.


No. I mean high efficiency. Most people call power vent heaters high efficiency but that is not the case. A high efficiency natural gas device has an inlet for combustion air, piped from outside, as well as an outlet for flue gasses.

Power vent = 1 pipe to outside
High efficiency = 2 pipes to outside

Natural gas requires 10 parts air to 1 part gas for combustion.

In the case of a power vent heater, combustion air comes from the house but the house air needs to be replenished and that is coming from outside.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

TomB16 said:


> No. I mean high efficiency. Most people call power vent heaters high efficiency but that is not the case. A high efficiency natural gas device has an inlet for combustion air, piped from outside, as well as an outlet for flue gasses.
> 
> Power vent = 1 pipe to outside
> High efficiency = 2 pipes to outside


The term "High efficiency" is so misused it really has no meaning for hot water heaters.

Direct vent = two pipes (intake and exhaust)
Power vent = one pipe (exhaust)


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

cainvest said:


> The term "High efficiency" is so misused it really has no meaning for hot water heaters.


The term is still used at my suppliers. The public, however, seem to think any gas appliance that vents out the side of the building is high efficiency.

Meanwhile, in SK, I believe we can still put a simple aluminum plug in the chimney. It's been some years since I worked HVAC service but I've seen houses recently with an Al plug in the chimney.

Perhaps the unused chimney will require different treatment, in other provinces.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

TomB16 said:


> Perhaps the unused chimney will require different treatment, in other provinces.


If it's not used you can do whatever you want with it.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

Tostig said:


> I thought about that and spoke to someone before making the purchase.
> 
> Some of the cons are
> 1) need to upgrade your breaker box for a dedicated line to the tankless water heater.
> ...


I don't think the reasoning #2 above is true. It may be some scare tactic from hvac contractors who are still proponents of ancient North American water barrels.
Maybe they lack specialized training in installing tankless.

I had a Rinnai, made in Japan, rated at 200K BTU, with solid gas line, and it was able to produce at least 8 gallons/minute hot water (at nominally-set water temp). Condensing model, with at least 98% efficiency. Never had an issue with it.
Inability to accommodate multiple points of consumption, is on contrary, a problem with the water barrels.

Please do more research, and don't trust shady hvac guys who may be after a quick buck, and lame installs (for example, if they tell you that they prefer to use the yellow "gas tite" type of "pipe", instead of black iron pipe, run, don't walk!)


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

spiritwalker2222 said:


> Don't get tankless, waste of money and water (have to run taps longer).


That's bull. The place where I'm currently renting, has the feudal ancient water barrel. And even with it being set for maintaining a hotter water temp (it has a control dial), my wait time for getting the water from cold to lukewarm, at the ground floor (the barrel is in the basement), is longer than what a tankless can typically does.

I'm actually missing my Rinnai tankless water heater that I had installed in Waterloo, ON.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

Money172375 said:


> agreee. Mixed feedback from people who have them. Source water is too cold in Canada.


Sorry, that's a BS argument. Too generalizing. If the water was so cold as you seem to say, then hey, it may be closer to freezing point, and freezing your pipes, even with your main heat on in the house .

You need a professional company to install it (one that may be into commercial installs, not residential), if not doing it yourself. And you need solid gas throughput and pressure at your house connecting point. So that it can achieve 200K BTU for real.

At the last place where I was having it, Waterloo, ON (installed by Connestogo Mechanical), I can sure you that the winters were loooong and frigid (-25 ... -30 degrees Celsius mid January), and I never had issues with my tankless.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> We love our tankless. We got it about 5 years ago. It's freaking cold where are I am much of the year too. It takes about 45 seconds from the further pipe in our house to warm up enough, it's a little more water, but the cost savings for heat went down immediately each month I think. We were just using the colder water to help water plants.
> 
> The piece we love about tank less, is that you never run out of hot water. You are right that multiple people using hot water at the same time can be a problem, but that can be easily worked around. We hardly ever had more than one person showering at the same time anyways, but we did have a problem with everyone wanting to take a long shower or bath and then running out of hot water. Now, one person can run a hot bath, and while soaking another can use another shower. Same with laundry and the dishwasher, we always did that at different times anyways. It used to be a problem where someone would do their laundry while having a shower, and the next person had cold water. We had dual hot water tanks before the tankless.
> 
> One con is the descaling of the tank, so that's a little bit of pain (we hate maintenance), but we do it yearly, and found you can even hire some apparently to do it for you.


A smart move to make with tankless, in areas with water hardness, is to feed the whole water pipes from the same water softener. I actually fed also my hydronic heating system's water feeder, so that all my wall tall (modern, low-tem operating) Aluminum radiators were having their water circuit fed also with softened water. Worked nicely. No scaling problems.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

spiritwalker2222 said:


> Our natural gas usage (family of 3) to heat the hot water in our old house with a tank was $6 per moth. Don't see much of, if any ROI for a 3K tankless system.


Is the 3K figure you're quoting just the price of the physical device, or is it including the installation?

The one I had around 2010, I bought it myself for $950 and about 1K more to have it installed. The installation cost included also bringing in a 1/2'' gas line to the newly bought gas range in the kitchen, plus a BBQ gas line outside.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

HappilyRetired said:


> Tankless are overrated.
> 
> New HW tanks are more efficient and don't lose that much heat. Shut off the breaker and you still have warm water a day or 2 later. Plus in winter, and "lost" heat helps warm up your house so it's recovered.
> 
> I have electric HW tank. When it fails I'll replace it myself and save the labour. Quick release fitting and/or Sharkbite and it will take less than an hour.


Sorry, but your post had simply made me laugh. Is a HW tank using a condensing, 2nd-stage remnant heat recouping technology, which makes a 98% thermal efficiency easily achievable?
Besides being able to provide unlimited volume of hot water, a good tankless can last 15-20 years easily. How long does the feudal, 19-century water barrel last, with it's "Magnesium sacrificial anode" (what a bunch of mumbo-jumbo crap)? 8-10 years maybe, before it leaks?

And regarding "Shut off the breaker and you still have warm water a day or 2 later. Plus in winter, and "lost" heat helps warm up your house so it's recovered.": The question is, what the heck does one actually intend to heat here? The water or the environment? It's like saying that ... keeping you car running all night long in your garage, so that you can enjoy it warm in the morning to drive to work, is the intended (wasteful!) purpose... LOL so hard....


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

Tostig said:


> Returned our Rheem hot water tank. Cancelled our installation appointment.
> 
> We now have tankless and a new furnace. Waiting for Monday to install the heat pump.


Excellent choice! Congrats for the wise purchase decision!


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

cainvest said:


> The term "High efficiency" is so misused it really has no meaning for hot water heaters.


Sorry, I beg to differ. Being able to extract all the heat, from both the combustion fuel, and the hot exhaust by condensing it and extract even more energy out of it, can offers significant efficiency, like 98%.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

smihaila said:


> Sorry, I beg to differ. Being able to extract all the heat, from both the combustion fuel, and the hot exhaust by condensing it and extract even more energy out of it, can offers significant efficiency, like 98%.


Uhhh sure ... has nothing to do with my statement that "high efficiency" is a misused term. I've seen HWHs rated at .67 that claim high efficiency.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

cainvest said:


> Uhhh sure ... has nothing to do with my statement that "high efficiency" is a misused term. I've seen HWHs rated at .67 that claim high efficiency.


Ah, I see now where you're coming from. Yes, that's a good point.


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## spiritwalker2222 (Nov 7, 2017)

smihaila said:


> That's bull. The place where I'm currently renting, has the feudal ancient water barrel. And even with it being set for maintaining a hotter water temp (it has a control dial), my wait time for getting the water from cold to lukewarm, at the ground floor (the barrel is in the basement), is longer than what a tankless can typically does.
> 
> I'm actually missing my Rinnai tankless water heater that I had installed in Waterloo, ON.


LOL, how are you supposed to take cold water, heat it and expect it to get to your tap faster than a tank with hot water that is waiting. Maybe your new location has a longer run?

P.S. We have the top of the line Rinnai (well at least 4 years ago). It has performed as it should, but that is not [my] ideal.


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## spiritwalker2222 (Nov 7, 2017)

smihaila said:


> Is the 3K figure you're quoting just the price of the physical device, or is it including the installation?
> 
> The one I had around 2010, I bought it myself for $950 and about 1K more to have it installed. The installation cost included also bringing in a 1/2'' gas line to the newly bought gas range in the kitchen, plus a BBQ gas line outside.


tankless only, not including installation.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

smihaila said:


> Besides being able to provide unlimited volume of hot water, a good tankless can last 15-20 years easily. How long does the feudal, 19-century water barrel last, with it's "Magnesium sacrificial anode" (what a bunch of mumbo-jumbo crap)? 8-10 years maybe, before it leaks?
> 
> And regarding "Shut off the breaker and you still have warm water a day or 2 later. Plus in winter, and "lost" heat helps warm up your house so it's recovered.": The question is, what the heck does one actually intend to heat here? The water or the environment? It's like saying that ... keeping you car running all night long in your garage, so that you can enjoy it warm in the morning to drive to work, is the intended (wasteful!) purpose... LOL so hard....


Replace the anode rod and a regular HW tank can easily last 15 years. Or longer.

In winter any "lost" heat from a HW tanks warms up the house. Where else do you think the heat goes? It doesn't magically disappear. Every BTU that escapes the tank is one less BTU that the furnace has to create. So it's recovered and not completely wasted. This is basic physics.

Your comparison to running running a car all night is completely wrong and actually, quite foolish.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

HappilyRetired said:


> ...
> 
> In winter any "lost" heat from a HW tanks warms up the house. Where else do you think the heat goes? It doesn't magically disappear. Every BTU that escapes the tank is one less BTU that the furnace has to create. So it's recovered and not completely wasted. This is basic physics.
> 
> ...




Water tanks are usually placed near the furnace where waste heat heats up the furnace room and maybe the floor planks just above. Unless there is a specific delivery system to utilize waste heat for the rest of the house, the path of least resistance heat transfers into the chimney flue and out the house.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Tostig said:


> Water tanks are usually placed near the furnace where waste heat heats up the furnace room and maybe the floor planks just above. Unless there is a specific delivery system to utilize waste heat for the rest of the house, the path of least resistance heat transfers into the chimney flue and out the house.


For gas tanks yes. Not for electric though.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Tostig said:


> Water tanks are usually placed near the furnace where waste heat heats up the furnace room and maybe the floor planks just above. Unless there is a specific delivery system to utilize waste heat for the rest of the house, the path of least resistance heat transfers into the chimney flue and out the house.


Not for a powervent. They use a fan because it isn't hot enough for the exhaust to rise by itself. Mine is exhausted through a horizontal plastic pipe.


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