# Starting out with mostly day trading



## undersc0re (Oct 7, 2017)

This will be my first venture into managing my own money as well as playing innthe stick market. I have some questions I am not exactly clear about. Firstly my plan so far will be to start off with $50,000 and buy 5 different types of stocks at $10000 worth each. I will try to day trade as long as I can pull at least $50 a day from each one, if I can not make a daily profit from one I leave it alone for days or weeks until I do....I will hopefully not have all 5 sitting there waiting weeks lol. I would like to use mainly high profile stable stocks like costco, google, amd, cn rail, ppg, etc...so I don?t lose all my money fast. 
I will use a bank, most likely Cibc which advertises a good rate per trade. Not sure what this type of trading strategy is called, but would love to give it a shot and eventually move it up to 10 different stocks at $10000 each.
Does cibc or some other provider allow you to trade in the american stock market while allowing you to always keep your account in Canadian funds to make it easier to keep track of accounting for cra. Also I assume this would be foreign investments?
I am now doing a lot of reading about this type of investing and everything is not super clear as it seems the answers are not always fully and clearly explained for everything when scouring the web.
Thanks for your time.


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## undersc0re (Oct 7, 2017)

I should add that it will be non-registered account, I realize I will have to add 50% of profits to my annual income, at least from what I have read so far.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

undersc0re said:


> I should add that it will be non-registered account, I realize I will have to add 50% of profits to my annual income, at least from what I have read so far.


Hopefully you've read that when a taxpayer is using day trading as a way to earn or substantially supplement their income, they may not be eligible to claim capital gains on those investment earnings. The profits may be considered income for tax purposes. You should investigate the rules around that situation.

ltr


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## investorted (Feb 27, 2017)

undersc0re said:


> This will be my first venture into managing my own money as well as playing innthe stick market. I have some questions I am not exactly clear about. Firstly my plan so far will be to start off with $50,000 and buy 5 different types of stocks at $10000 worth each. I will try to day trade as long as I can pull at least $50 a day from each one, if I can not make a daily profit from one I leave it alone for days or weeks until I do....I will hopefully not have all 5 sitting there waiting weeks lol. I would like to use mainly high profile stable stocks like costco, google, amd, cn rail, ppg, etc...so I don?t lose all my money fast.
> I will use a bank, most likely Cibc which advertises a good rate per trade. Not sure what this type of trading strategy is called, but would love to give it a shot and eventually move it up to 10 different stocks at $10000 each.
> Does cibc or some other provider allow you to trade in the american stock market while allowing you to always keep your account in Canadian funds to make it easier to keep track of accounting for cra. Also I assume this would be foreign investments?
> I am now doing a lot of reading about this type of investing and everything is not super clear as it seems the answers are not always fully and clearly explained for everything when scouring the web.
> Thanks for your time.


I think you should research into the companies before investing $10K just based on their 'high profile' status. Remember, even Everon was once a 'high profile' stock.


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

I don't think you have a clear understanding of day trading.

Day trading you need real time purchase and sell at times you are in and out of stocks in seconds.

You are likely talking about swing trading.

Because you aren't clear about this don't start buying stocks. You need to hit the books.


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## undersc0re (Oct 7, 2017)

like_to_retire said:


> Hopefully you've read that when a taxpayer is using day trading as a way to earn or substantially supplement their income, they may not be eligible to claim capital gains on those investment earnings. The profits may be considered income for tax purposes. You should investigate the rules around that situation.
> 
> ltr


I had no idea that 100% could be considered all taxable, I figured if I make 125,000 a year regular income that supplementing with investing making maybe (hopefully) 10,000 a year that it would just be taxable at 50%, I will investigate into that suggestion for sure.

Also doing it with many safe large stable companys I hope to not completely lose my shirt. 

I hope to do some quality reading and using practice trading accounts for the next 6-12 months to figure out some of the quirks, will stay away from shorting and margin trading.


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## undersc0re (Oct 7, 2017)

Oldroe said:


> I don't think you have a clear understanding of day trading.
> 
> Day trading you need real time purchase and sell at times you are in and out of stocks in seconds.
> 
> ...


 I will definetely hit the books and watch some you tube tutorials before fully jumping in...my plan is to slowly get into it well into next year. If I end up finding it is not for me I will just work a lot of overtime for the next 15 years. I might just scare myself out of it with the practice trading accounts.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

First off if you want to put 50,000 on the table for day trading your net worth should be @ least 2.5 million 

Would maybe take 10,000 of the 50,000 to trade then after you lost it all & realize what not to do. Your still going to have 40,000 left.

Need to study the market & based on your philosophy from study must find a method that gives you an edge that also fits your personality. (better get this one right or you have no edge)

Follow your method which should give you black & white parameters of when to buy & sell

When I read your post it seams you have the false impression individual stocks go up forever ?


Please understand

Putting to much on the table your finished before you even start as emotion will destroy you.

Day trading you most likely will get burned as to close to the market esp just starting out

Your going to have higher percentage of slippage from bid/ask spread per trade then if positioned trade

It is like a poker game not everyone can win the money will flow to the strongest player/players

Might want to consider to keep it simple & buy GICs interest rates should be heading higher & you will beat the pants off the average investor in stock market over the years.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Do you have any understanding of beta slippage ? If do not keep bet size same or increase it slowly it can eat your money as beta slippage alone can wipe out the day trader i.e., inverse ETFs & leveraged ETFs under perform do to beta slippage


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Don't do it. Day trading is a tough racket, almost impossible to make money. There have been times when certain stocks went up every day and never came down, like tech stocks in the late 90s. In such times some amateurs made fortunes in a couple of years - and lost it all in a couple of months when the market turned around.

Today it is practically impossible. The big banks and financial institutions closed their prop trading desks years ago because computer controlled algorythms whipped all the cream off the market and individual traders can't make money day trading anymore. Even with the full resources of the world's biggest most powerful institutions behind them.

Suggest you read How I Made $2,000,000 In The Stock Market by Nicolas Darvas and How To Make Money In Stocks by William O'Neill. They are probably the best resources to start with, when it comes to short term trading. Not day trading but trading in a time frame of months to a year or 2.


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## KelownaCondo (Oct 7, 2017)

Call me crazy but i do a little day trading........I only trade about 4-5 companies but i have researched them in and out.. Lets say Torc oil.... I buy 10k shares at $6.10 then sell at $6.17. You can loose at the same time. Everyone will tell you something different. People make a living at it.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

I think BAC can be rewarding for DT-ers...if you have a BIG chunk of change invested, AND can jump in & out almost minute by minute.....OR......it can kill you!


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Read the OP. 

_*"This will be my first venture into managing my own money as well as playing in the stock market.*_

And yet he proposes to start with day-trading. Like giving your toddler the keys to the Ski-Doo. An accident waiting to happen.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I've been out at the beach surfing for the last few days. I was thinking about this:

Some days are great for surfing, with ideal wave conditions, winds, and tides. Other days just suck, and on those days with poor conditions, no matter how good you are, or how hard you try, you won't succeed. You can't surf those waves.

Day trading is a similar game. When you trade during good conditions (strong bull market) it works out fine. But try the same activity under bad conditions such as a bear market + high volatility, and it's not going to work well -- no matter how hard you try.

The US stock market hasn't had those conditions for 6 years now. When it finally happens, it's going to be a bad day (or year) of surfing.


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## undersc0re (Oct 7, 2017)

I will admit I have no experience, I guess from the sounds of it I will not be able to trade by the minute as a beginner, and that trading by the minute is very important. Hopefully the trading practice accounts will show how that applies, I assume it means I personally see my stock bought at 1$ and then I see it up to $1.10 so i hit sell all and then the transaction for 100 shares at that time looks good but then it sells at .98 ? Not sure what you mean exactly but I will watch for those small changes that will hurt the real money pocketbook.
Is there anything else I should watch during the practice account trading that will come in handy? I get the feeling here that I should not gamble until I am a pro gambler...if that makes sense. What steps did you take to become or learn quickly to become a successful trader of some sort? I will also read a book or 2 suggested here and check out the tax advantages.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Paper trading no skin in the game making it a different game. When your money is on the line the game changes. Read any of the market Wizzard books by jack Swagar (sp?) & anything from Elliott wave.com


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

underscore, you sure you not some kind of marketer for the day trading industry?

i mean this is not the right forum for day trading. There are dedicated day trading forums, why not join em.

the locals here don't believe that novice investors with zero experience should jump w both feet into day trading by the minute.

PS absolutely do not day trade with tiny little bundles of $10,000 each. Day traders move out after a penny or less, so you need thousands of shares, at least $100,000 worth, to make the effort worth considering.


.


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## jollybear (Jun 28, 2015)

james4beach said:


> I've been out at the beach surfing for the last few days. I was thinking about this:
> 
> Some days are great for surfing, with ideal wave conditions, winds, and tides. Other days just suck, and on those days with poor conditions, no matter how good you are, or how hard you try, you won't succeed. You can't surf those waves.
> 
> ...


James please try to consider this theory when referring to day trading. It absolutely does not matter if it`s a risk on (bull market) or risk off (bear market) for the day, month or year for professional day traders. Volatility and a proven edge is what`s needed to be successful. I can make (or lose) the same amount of money in a day shorting the market as I can going long. The ease of shorting markets is a major reason why serious traders are active in futures markets.

Investing the time in developing a proven edge, back testing, knowing what market conditions are most favorable for your edge and the psychology of trading real money as compared to paper trading are big hurdles and will weed out the majority that think you`ll become profitable overnight day trading. I`ve posted the link below to a site that`s more favorable to the subject.

https://futures.io/


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

I just remembered something very important. Before you start day trading you must read Flash Boys by Micheal Lewis.


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## blin10 (Jun 27, 2011)

I say do it, most likely you'll loose money but it will be the best lesson for you (you will see how it works with live money) that no book can teach you....


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Flash Boys will teach you some very important lessons you must know before day trading.


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## KelownaCondo (Oct 7, 2017)

undersc0re said:


> I will admit I have no experience, I guess from the sounds of it I will not be able to trade by the minute as a beginner, and that trading by the minute is very important. Hopefully the trading practice accounts will show how that applies, I assume it means I personally see my stock bought at 1$ and then I see it up to $1.10 so i hit sell all and then the transaction for 100 shares at that time looks good but then it sells at .98 ? Not sure what you mean exactly but I will watch for those small changes that will hurt the real money pocketbook.
> Is there anything else I should watch during the practice account trading that will come in handy? I get the feeling here that I should not gamble until I am a pro gambler...if that makes sense. What steps did you take to become or learn quickly to become a successful trader of some sort? I will also read a book or 2 suggested here and check out the tax advantages.


You have to sell your stock at a LIMIT and not at "Market rate". Set the sell limit price at the price for what you want to sell it at exactly...."market price" will sell it for what people are willing to pay for it...which would is really much lower


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## KelownaCondo (Oct 7, 2017)

humble_pie said:


> underscore, you sure you not some kind of marketer for the day trading industry?
> 
> i mean this is not the right forum for day trading. There are dedicated day trading forums, why not join em.
> 
> ...


Humble Pie is very right.... I try and trade with 40k+ per trade......Should i be doing this? Well who said i cant? Working well for me this year. Just focus on 5-6 stocks..master them.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

jollybear said:


> James please try to consider this theory when referring to day trading. It absolutely does not matter if it`s a risk on (bull market) or risk off (bear market) for the day, month or year for professional day traders. Volatility and a proven edge is what`s needed to be successful.


Maybe that's true for the very few expert day traders, but not for most day traders. Those people are one in a million, and if they're that good at trading, they probably will land jobs at investment banks or hedge funds.

Most day traders cannot survive bear markets.

I heard the same things back in 2000 and 2007. People said, I can profit as a day trader whether the market goes up or down. They were all wiped out by the bear markets.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

KelownaCondo said:


> You have to sell your stock at a LIMIT and not at "Market rate". Set the sell limit price at the price for what you want to sell it at exactly...."market price" will sell it for what people are willing to pay for it...which would is really much lower


 Could use market if touched order. Though not sure how many firms still offer market if touched


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Underscore if you really want to day trade check out InTheMoneyStocks.com one of the best track records around. Swing trade, day trade, options these guys are good


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## jollybear (Jun 28, 2015)

james4beach said:


> Maybe that's true for the very few expert day traders, but not for most day traders. Those people are one in a million, and if they're that good at trading, they probably will land jobs at investment banks or hedge funds.
> 
> Most day traders cannot survive bear markets.
> 
> I heard the same things back in 2000 and 2007. People said, I can profit as a day trader whether the market goes up or down. They were all wiped out by the bear markets.


Well I would not consider myself an expert day trader and my previous statement holds true for myself. I`m also well capitalized where I would not want to work for a prop shop, hedge fund or bank....why would I when I keep 100% of my profits (or loses) myself?

Day trading without a plan, risk management measures, using stocks that are illiquid, more than 1 cent bid/ask spread or do not have the ability to short is complete amateur hour, and yes 99.99% of those people lose money. For the folks that are willing to put in the time, effort and have the grit to become a profitable trader, they stand a chance. 

Think about your last sentence in your previous post James "They were all wiped out by the bear market" Why is that? How were their risk management skills? Were they taking trades larger than 5% of their account? Were they trading without stop losses? Were they able to read the context of the market and adapt their trading plan? Why weren`t they shorting indices in clearly a bear market and riding the trend when their trading edge appeared? Again you are talking about complete amateurs that have no idea what day trading involves. 

Let`s agree to disagree on the "trading" subject, I value your opinion on "investing" and appreciate your time and effort put forth on this forum.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

humble_pie said:


> u
> 
> 
> PS absolutely do not day trade with tiny little bundles of $10,000 each. Day traders move out after a penny or less, so you need thousands of shares, at least $100,000 worth, to make the effort worth considering.
> ...


 Humble high frequency traders maybe play price movement with in a penny. There are so many ways to play the game i.e., some day traders will play retracing of gaps which can have a lot larger price movement then a penny.

Im not really a day trader more of a position trader though have used price pattern & might only hold a position for less then a day as the price action tells me I m wrong so I exit my position


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## undersc0re (Oct 7, 2017)

Thanks for the tips and suggestions! I should probably read more before asking questions, but if I press sell market price on 500 shares of a very liquid stock is there a chance it could sit there while it drops in price until the shares can sell? Is that why it would be better to use a high volume stock? I assumed it would always sell within a minute especially the popular ones.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Yes if there is an air pocket

Underscore mistakes are easy to make if your trying to get orders in fast you can easily press a wrong number or an extra number & not notice the more you trade the less time you have to double check triple check you done everything right the higher the odds are of making a mistake a huge mistake can set you back.


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## undersc0re (Oct 7, 2017)

Do these trading books give you tips about things like that, also I watch one company that has thousands of employees with employee share matching, and it seems like whenever shares are doled out the share price always seems to go up before that happens lol, so would tips like that be in these books? If I do get into it I will try my best to not gamble and base my moves on past behaviour, but I already did some reading and the guy keeps repeating that stocks are hard to read for even the most avid trader and that it is like going to the casino. The traders learn what happens and take advantage of those moves and then because traders jump on the knowns it causes the knowns to quickly change, so its like you almost have to do the opposite lol, definetly a lot more to it than that, I assume there is a lot of insider information that is shared as well as it can be.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

underscOre it takes everybody time to learn to trade. If you are smart it could take 3 or 4 years. If not it could take 10 years, 20 years, some people never make it. Does this surprise you? How long do you think it takes to become an expert computer programmer, doctor, plumber etc?

Warren Buffet, and other very smart investors, say that if you don't want to put in the time to learn the markets and how to invest the best thing to do is buy index funds and go play golf. Just by buying index funds you will beat 85% of the mutual funds and hedge funds.

If you really want to learn, suggest you start with some books by Van K. Tharp. He is a psychologist who has made a study of successful traders for the last 30 years. What he found out is, they all share certain traits in common when it comes to their methods. Even though no two trade alike and they don't even trade the same things.

If you would rather play golf or go fishing I have some ideas of how to improve the results of indexing in a few minutes per week.


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## Nerd Investor (Nov 3, 2015)

I'll second Van K Tharp. Then figure out what your methodology or "edge" is going to be. I'll also echo swing trading over day trading. That doesn't mean you couldn't occasionally buy and close in the same day but more likely you'll be looking at holding for a few days or a week or weeks (this really depends what time frames your trading and what your targets are). You also need to figure out a methodology that makes sense to you and learn it well. Since it sounds like you're going to be long only (and looking for a margin of safety by sticking to quality) you'll likely be buying pull backs nears support. Look to learn about price action (patterns, identifying strong support lines etc). Indicators that show a stock is short-term over sold. Avoid holding through earnings and major events. 

More important than all this though is to use a small portion of your account for this endeavor and be prepared to lose big. You mentioned paper trading for a while which is an excellent idea if you decide to push through with this.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

undersc0re said:


> Do these trading books give you tips about things like that, also I watch one company that has thousands of employees with employee share matching, and it seems like whenever shares are doled out the share price always seems to go up before that happens lol, so would tips like that be in these books? If I do get into it I will try my best to not gamble and base my moves on past behaviour, but I already did some reading and the guy keeps repeating that stocks are hard to read for even the most avid trader and that it is like going to the casino. The traders learn what happens and take advantage of those moves and then because traders jump on the knowns it causes the knowns to quickly change, so its like you almost have to do the opposite lol, definetly a lot more to it than that, I assume there is a lot of insider information that is shared as well as it can be.





insider information would be the last thing that would be shared, imho. Even the SEDI listings are not 100% reliable, although they have enough meat that they are always worth checking.

SEDI filing is voluntary. Many insiders file late, some simply don't file at all. Most file via secretaries or assistants who make mistakes.

if one looks at the post above, there is a lot of "magical" thinking. Somehow, the poster thinks, there is going to be a pattern that no one else has yet recognized. The party who can decode that pattern will get rich, goes the magic belief.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Nerd Investor said:


> . Indicators that show a stock is short-term over sold. Avoid holding through earnings and major events.
> .


 In my experience indicators must be used in conjuction of where price is in the price pattern i.e., momentum will be weaker in a fifth wave then in a third wave & momentum will usually be highest @ 3rd of a 3d & the higher the degree of the 3rd waves the stronger the momentum.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Not sure who is "selling" you the idea of day trading but its gambling in its purest form. Why would you want to gamble your hard earned money? With that mindset, would you consider buying $50,000 worth of lottery tickets? 

I'm not a pro day trader, but I know that you don't do it with an ipad logged into your discount brokerage account. The people I know have sophisticated computers running 24 hours a day and extensive and costly subscriptions to real-time stock quotes. Their rooms look like a replica of the NASDAQ trading floor. They are buying and selling the same stock within minutes and most of the time for fractions of a penny - yes fractions. A couple of seconds can cost them thousands of dollars yet their goal is to gain a couple of $100. All this cannot be achieved with your discount brokerage account - which most have a 15 minute delay with real-time quotes.

So unless you are prepared to invest in the right tools and research, day trading may not be for you.

Don't listen to the penny stock investor who quadrupled his investment - 9 out 10 times they eventually lose their gains. Its like the gambler who flaunts the few times he wins - but never talks about his losses.


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## undersc0re (Oct 7, 2017)

Mortgage u/w said:


> Not sure who is "selling" you the idea of day trading but its gambling in its purest form. Why would you want to gamble your hard earned money? With that mindset, would you consider buying $50,000 worth of lottery tickets?
> 
> I'm not a pro day trader, but I know that you don't do it with an ipad logged into your discount brokerage account. The people I know have sophisticated computers running 24 hours a day and extensive and costly subscriptions to real-time stock quotes. Their rooms look like a replica of the NASDAQ trading floor. They are buying and selling the same stock within minutes and most of the time for fractions of a penny - yes fractions. A couple of seconds can cost them thousands of dollars yet their goal is to gain a couple of $100. All this cannot be achieved with your discount brokerage account - which most have a 15 minute delay with real-time quotes.
> 
> ...



I have already gambled on 5 penny stocks at $1000 each years ago, they all went bankrupt! I will never gamble on that again, that is worse than going to the casino. I still think day/swing trading with different style stocks that are very secure is a lot better than $50,000 worth of lotto tickets lol. I was not going to pick 5 commodities, it was going to be costco, ppg, cnrail, amd, google...so hopefully they all don't tank at once and its a bit of variety. Commodities scare me. I am doing the practice accounts now, already I held onto one as it slowly dropped when I should have stopsell it at a certain price and took that money to use elsewhere, I am still holding onto it lol and it is way down! Lesson learned there as that money is not working for me right now. I probably won't get into this as I have trouble sleeping as it is! 

I will look into index funds, I was looking into them last year, but I think I may read a lot more about them and see if that might be an alternative.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

undersc0re said:


> I still think day/swing trading with different style stocks that are very secure is a lot better than $50,000 worth of lotto tickets lol.


Of course, statistically, you loose money (fairly quickly) with lottery and gain money (slowly) with stocks. What I expect will happen is that you'll make money as long as the market moves up on average, but less than if you'd just bought an index ETF.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

The most important thing is to figure out your own strengths and weaknesses and find a method that works for you. In my case, I really don't like investing that much. I'm not very smart, or well educated. Somewhat math challenged. Scared to death of losing money. Lazy. So I had to find a method that did not take much mental or physical effort and gave good returns on a long term hold without watching the markets like I have a temperature of 103 and the rent due Tuesday. It took a few years but I think I have found something that works.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

undersc0re said:


> I was not going to pick 5 commodities, it was going to be costco, ppg, cnrail, amd, google



re GOOGL, $10,000 CAD = 8 (eight) shares of GOOGL. This quantity is not really enuf for day trading.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

I will repeat that day trading is suicide but if you want to indulge in short term trading look for a few active stocks that you find predictable. A few years ago I made some good trades in Tesla because it tended to trend strongly, up or down, for weeks or months at a time. There are other stocks that can be somewhat predictable. As far as anything can be predictable in this game.

Now I look for stocks in a strong up trend that could be good for 50% a year or more. Investor's Business Daily has a list of them.


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## hboy54 (Sep 16, 2016)

I day traded once. Harvested a bit in EMA that flash crash Monday 7 or 8 years ago from $26 to $28, something like that for a total gain of $2400 on 2000 shares.

Even that is a loser move for it sits around $48 these days, plus all the dividends if I had just held. That would be something like 12% PA give or take.

Some can learn from others. Some have to urinate on the electric fence to see for themselves.

Hboy54


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

It's part of the journey. We all start out thinking we can make a fortune overnight. If you look at a few charts it looks so simple. Just buy at the bottom, and sell at the top. It is simple but it is not easy. Eventually you figure out something that works for you. If I can help some other sucker shorten the journey why not.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Before you start trading you MUST watch this video. Sums up a lot of things you need to know about trading and making money. Everyone should watch it before they trade. How professional traders make money and why retail traders almost never do. And why everything the average retail trader 'knows' is wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7G0OfJUON8


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Everyone should watch it before they trade. How professional traders make money and why retail traders almost never do. And why everything the average retail trader 'knows' is wrong.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7G0OfJUON8


Thanks for posting this. I watched the whole video -- this is vital background to have and great advice. I strongly recommend that anyone who's trading (including options) watches this.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This one is a really good video to watch, for anyone trying to start out with active trading. He goes through the mistakes he made and how he ended up losing $75,000 trading. Something kind of funny though, he thinks it was an Act of God that made WYNN gap up 25% the day after he capitulated and sold his entire position (he capitulated precisely at the bottom).

It wasn't an Act of God, it was an Act of Wall Street. There's a reason this kind of thing tends to happen "miraculously" over and over again. They're crooks. The algorithms move the market and bait traders in a way to extract maximum profit from retail traders. Plus, of course they can all see his (and thousands of other) traders' stop prices. The big players push the price around in order to herd the cats, bait them, and then rip them off. Over and over again, every day 

Anyway, it's that kind of naïveté that causes novice traders to lose money, virtually in every case.


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## zylon (Oct 27, 2010)

> Some can learn from others. Some have to urinate on the electric fence to see for themselves.
> 
> Hboy54


Agree with that.
It's extremely difficult to learn from other people's mistakes.

*To o/p I say;*

Go for it; but in case things don't work out as planned, please set a max-loss-limit. When that limit is reached, stop and rethink the plan.

The max-loss-limit should be low enough so that you don't require professional medical assistance, but high enough so that you remember it for the rest of your life.

I've had many $5k losses, the details of which are hazy and fading. But the one $60k loss dwells at top of mind every time I log into my brokerage account. A lesson well worth the price.

Pay the tuition as soon as possible; then the real experience can begin.


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## undersc0re (Oct 7, 2017)

Great videos and thanks for the suggestions! I have a question in these practice trading accounts I use big name stocks with large volume, twice now I sold at market price and they sat there all day until the end of the day and then sold, thankfully they went up in value a bit, just wondering why this would happen.


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## jollybear (Jun 28, 2015)

undersc0re said:


> Great videos and thanks for the suggestions! I have a question in these practice trading accounts I use big name stocks with large volume, twice now I sold at market price and they sat there all day until the end of the day and then sold, thankfully they went up in value a bit, just wondering why this would happen.


That doesn`t make sense if you are trading stocks with high liquidity and large volumes. If you are serious about day trading and back testing a system you need to penalize yourself the bid/ask spread when analyzing results. Many simulators (practice accounts) will fill your order as soon as your limit order is hit which may not be realistic in live trading.


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## undersc0re (Oct 7, 2017)

Ya, I know the spread penalty, just can not figure out why twice now I put market sell orders in the morning and they would not execute until pretty much market close time....


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

undersc0re said:


> Ya, I know the spread penalty, just can not figure out why twice now I put market sell orders in the morning and they would not execute until pretty much market close time....


Probably just because it's a paper trading account and they don't care about executing your orders quickly. In real life they would sell instantly.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

In any kind of stressed market (high volatility, quote problems, insanely high order volumes) you can encounter problems that delay and cause fills to take much longer. This hasn't happened for a few years so it's easy for people to forget what this feels like. People using fake, paper trading accounts will never experience this.

"Technical problems" with the US quote system actually occur quite frequently, and have happened even after the 2008 crash. This has been a recurring problem that should not be taken lightly. You can get stale quotes, tickers that don't update, or failure of multiple electronic markets to centrally report quotes.

Imagine you're day trading a security and only expected to hold it for a few minutes. The price starts gapping down as stops are hit and the broad market starts moving sharply lower. You panic for a moment, and just that moment of hesitation has already put you far behind in the lineup to sell, behind all the robot algorithms and more experienced human traders.

Now by the time you sell, there is no liquidity for your security, so your order sits there doing nothing. You revise the order, still no fill. All the while, the price keeps moving lower.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

undersc0re ,

I would encourage you to day trade. The reason is it will give you experience that will never leave you. but my best advice is to use an amount of money that is small relative to your financial resources. I know several people who took a course and then became very confident they would be millionares in short order. My suggestion to start with small amounts was met with anger and off they went and lost big time. they were delusional. Its much better to smash ones delusions with small amounts of money. 

Another suggestion that comes to mind is this book:
https://www.amazon.ca/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...argid=kwd-298811827867&ref=pd_sl_98n3vnwu6p_b

Its an entertaining story that reportedly is about Jessie Livermore. In the beginning, apparently as a teen, and in his 20's, he was good enough at trading to survive. He'd trade to by his food and pay his rent each day. As he matured he traded less, and went for larger longer moves. Ultimately he made big money - in the millions - and of course, lost it all too. Apparently he had an issue with managing risk, but essentially my point here is less trading and longer moves was an improvement over day trading. 
He was a pioneer of trading techniques and lots of his ideas are still in use.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Pluto said:


> I would encourage you to day trade. The reason is it will give you experience that will never leave you.


No question about that. It will be memorable.



> but my best advice is to use an amount of money that is small relative to your financial resources.


Also very good advice! Don't commit all your money.

Here's how it goes for any new active trader ...

Less than 1% will turn out to have the skills and knack to actually trade well. These people will make money, and will continue making money over the years. What a lucky situation to be in! If they're really good at it, they might even pursue this as a career, and could potentially land a lucrative trading job at a hedge fund or investment bank.

The other 99%+ will lose money, though they may have periods where they make some money. After the failure in trading (which could take 5+ years to realize) you will probably step away from stocks and investing, because of getting burned. A few years later you will come back to it and find success with more traditional indexing and couch potato approaches. And some people never come back, for example if they destroyed all their capital, or got so severely burned and emotionally scarred that they swear off investing forever.

The thing that concerns me is the opportunity cost when going through that journey. There's probably a stretch of 10 or 15 years where you're effectively forfeiting your indexing returns.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Reminiscences of a Stock Operator well deserves its reputation as a classic. The story of Larry Livingstone thought to be a roman a clef of Jesse Livermore. He starts out as a clerk in a brokerage office chalking prices on big blackboards that lined the walls of the office. For fun he would try to remember prices, and guess which way they would go. After a while he got pretty good so he tried his hand in a nearby bucket shop and made $6.32 on his first trade. This was in the 1890s and he was earning about $10 or $15 a week as an office clerk.

He day traded in the bucket shops until he made enough to get in on the big game - the New York Stock Exchange. That is where he made, and lost, several fortunes. He was known as 'the boy plunger'. If he was strong on a stock he would bet every cent he had. This is why he made money so rapidly when he was on a roll and lost it so rapidly when his luck turned.


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## kenshin (Nov 4, 2017)

undersc0re said:


> This will be my first venture into managing my own money as well as playing innthe stick market. I have some questions I am not exactly clear about. Firstly my plan so far will be to start off with $50,000 and buy 5 different types of stocks at $10000 worth each. I will try to day trade as long as I can pull at least $50 a day from each one, if I can not make a daily profit from one I leave it alone for days or weeks until I do....I will hopefully not have all 5 sitting there waiting weeks lol. I would like to use mainly high profile stable stocks like costco, google, amd, cn rail, ppg, etc...so I don?t lose all my money fast.
> I will use a bank, most likely Cibc which advertises a good rate per trade. Not sure what this type of trading strategy is called, but would love to give it a shot and eventually move it up to 10 different stocks at $10000 each.
> Does cibc or some other provider allow you to trade in the american stock market while allowing you to always keep your account in Canadian funds to make it easier to keep track of accounting for cra. Also I assume this would be foreign investments?
> I am now doing a lot of reading about this type of investing and everything is not super clear as it seems the answers are not always fully and clearly explained for everything when scouring the web.
> Thanks for your time.



From the way you worded your question, I highly doubt you understand what day trading is all about. Day traders buy and sell stock very fast, usually within the same day, they do it based on technical analysis, and usually it requires a big selection of stocks since your looking for a clear trend signal and momentum. Personally I don't do day trading, i'll do a few days sometimes if i see a clear indication or reversal, but i usually dislike doing even that and only do it with a very small amount of my total portfolio.

If you want to day trade i suggest taking a class for it and learning the fundamentals behind it, very risky business thou


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## kenshin (Nov 4, 2017)

undersc0re said:


> I will admit I have no experience, I guess from the sounds of it I will not be able to trade by the minute as a beginner, and that trading by the minute is very important. Hopefully the trading practice accounts will show how that applies, I assume it means I personally see my stock bought at 1$ and then I see it up to $1.10 so i hit sell all and then the transaction for 100 shares at that time looks good but then it sells at .98 ? Not sure what you mean exactly but I will watch for those small changes that will hurt the real money pocketbook.
> Is there anything else I should watch during the practice account trading that will come in handy? I get the feeling here that I should not gamble until I am a pro gambler...if that makes sense. What steps did you take to become or learn quickly to become a successful trader of some sort? I will also read a book or 2 suggested here and check out the tax advantages.


If you want to sell a stock at a certain price you have to place a limit order instead of sell at market price, same thing for buying.

FYI paper trades are not the same as trading on the real market. And if you don't even understand how to do limit orders, don't even consider day trading, also penny stocks are highly volatile, and in the real market they might have liquidity issues.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Pluto said:


> undersc0re ,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Livermore found he would lose money when he was around other people as their ideas would effect his thinking. Livermore used a limo back & forth to work so he would not be exposed to people to keep his thinking from bending. 

Livermore was an independent thinker so he found it hard to get along with people as he did not have as large of a tendency to herd to fit in as he understood the dangers


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## undersc0re (Oct 7, 2017)

Well, in the end I have a diversified porfolio of bluechips with good dividends, tried my best to pick them in past and future as I go when they are near 52 week lows....thx for the advice.


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