# Is the grass always greener on the other side?



## MasterCard (Aug 2, 2013)

I know this site is largely a forum for talk about financials and what-not.
But I'm hoping since we have some "experienced" people on this site, maybe we can get some good discussion going.

Anyway, I hear so much about how the quality of life is much better in Europe and blah blah blah.
Is this really true? Not Europe, but all these so-called "liveable places". Toronto, Vancouver, Sydney, blah blah.

I live/work in Toronto (well live in the suburbs but did work and studied in Toronto). 
Quite frankly - the GTA sucks.
It's cold 8 months of the year. We have horrible transportation systems, ungodly traffics jams (ever heard of the 401), you're priced out of the real estate market if you're single, vehicle insurance rates are brutal, let me know if you want more.
I'm 24 - and I really contemplate if I want to spend the rest of my life here...but is the grass greener on the other side?

Honestly, I'd love to live a nice quiet life in Florida.
Give me a nice condo, a car, and a decent job and year-round summer and you bet your bottom dollar I'm happy.
Isn't the RE market quite cheap down there too? 

It's not about Florida, but its about this supposed "quality of life" stuff I keep hearing all the time.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

IMO quality of life in Toronto does suck. But it really depends on what you want from your life.

In Ottawa it is colder and the transit is worse. But I don't mind driving and traffic is not that bad. But I can have a 3000 sq/ft home on 3 acres of land for less than $500k 15 min from work. To me that is quality of life.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

I lived in Toronto from 1996 to 2000. Had a horrible commute across 401. I hear it's much worse now.

I escaped from Toronto to Ottawa. It wasn't by accident. I targeted Ottawa in my job search. Ottawa is colder than Toronto, but it's much more livable in many other respects. This "qualify of life" stuff you hear about is absolutely true.


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## liquidfinance (Jan 28, 2011)

Quality of life is down to what you make of it. Your career choice will probably have a huge impact as well. 

I moved here in June 2012 from central England. My wife is Canadian and for us it was really a flip of the coin. Was she coming to the UK or would I come here. For me the quality of life is not really that much different. 

I would say Canada is around 20% more expensive on average given my circumstances. If I were from London then I guess it would be closer to par. 

The grass isn't always greener and what a place seems like on holiday will not be the same when it comes to living and working. 

To pick on a couple of points

Yes the traffic sucks - it does around the Greater London area or any other major city
Priced out of real estate if you're single - I think that's the same in any modern city.
Insurance is brutal here!

Nice Condo, car, job and year round summer - Yes I would love that. Often thought I could see myself on the south coast of Spain.


I think the key to quality of life comes from being able to break free of the rat race.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

If you're young without the obligations of a young family and mortgage, now would be the time to find out. Particularly if you can parlay it into added experience in your line of work. 
Once/if you have a family, then you have a responsibility to them. That might change where you can live or your flexibility in moving, schools, urban resources, staying connected with other family, etc. can all come into play. It doesn't mean life is grim though, in fact a lot of those annoyances you mention may become secondary when your young kids are the focus. 
At least that has been our experience.


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## the_apprentice (Jan 31, 2013)

I ask myself that same question every year. My parents are quick to tell me that the grass is not greener on the other side, which is the reason they immigrated to Canada in the first place. My family members in Europe work full-time hours which are comparable to the amount part-timers make here. As "bad" as you may think you have it there are many individuals I've met that would love to be in your position and that's how I look at it.

Nothing is perfect, if you're unhappy move elsewhere and try it out while you're young. Luckily I still live at home with my parents, otherwise I would have tried the move a while ago.


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

Lived in Vancouver til I was 36 and the boys were 6, 8, and 10. Had a successful career and up and quit after 18 yrs. Found a new job in Kelowna and quit my job, lost my pension, etc. Never looked back and ended up with a newer andlarger home, a ski condo, etc. and being more successful in one of the better places to live in Canada. Retired at 56. Often you just need the courage to do it.


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## Janus (Oct 23, 2013)

I think overall the quality of life in the GTA (and largely Canada as a whole) can be broken down as follows:

*Pros*:
- great post-secondary education
- affordable healthcare
- decent standard of living

*Cons*:
- embarassingly terrible public transit
- absolutely horrible weather 8 months of the year

To me, as someone without kids and who is mobile, the cons absolutely outweigh the pros (right now). But overall the things that people rave about in those "livable" places are all true. Australia is unbelievable - great weather, great economy, great people. Hong Kong is fantastic. New York is amazing. Vancouver is stunning... etc. etc. etc. it's all true, and never considering your options outside the GTA would be a mistake. An even greater mistake would be to live in the suburbs if you're young and committed to Toronto. The city still has a lot to offer, and you just can't enjoy it from Milton.

Florida is a hole in my opinion... it's great if you want to sit around and enjoy your retirement in a nice climate, but it's not a place for young people who want to work or do something with their lives. I'd advise abandoning the very dated Canadian view that the goal in life is to relax in Florida. The world has so much more to offer.

Sorry for the somewhat harsh response. But the grass is not always greener (people in Melbourne don't wish they lived in Toronto). I just have very opinionated views on this stuff! Get out there and explore, and if you decide Toronto is for you, make the best of it and get to know the city well. 

*Disclaimer*: I recently moved to Hong Kong.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Am I the only one who doesn't think the weather is that bad?


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

andrewf said:


> Am I the only one who doesn't think the weather is that bad?


I do chuckle when the Torontonian's complain about the cold and think that Muskoka is "The North"  Toronto is damn near as South as you can get in Canada.

For the record, I wouldn't be caught dead living in Toronto. It is simply outrageously expensive and far to busy for my liking! If you are not happy where you are in the GTA, then yes...the grass is MUCH greener anywhere else in Canada


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## alingva (Aug 17, 2013)

Food is definitely much much better in Europe. Quality of life depends on country. In general - countries that accept immigrants have much lower standards of living (France, UK, Germany, Holland, Denmark). Countries that do not accept immigrants (Norway, Finland, Switzerland) - have much higher quality of life. So if you are planning to immigrate - good luck just study arabic before that


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## alingva (Aug 17, 2013)

Janus said:


> *Cons*:
> - embarassingly terrible public transit
> - absolutely horrible weather 8 months of the year


I would add terribly not tasty and not healthy food, everything contains genetically modified corn


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## Westerncanada (Nov 11, 2013)

The more and more i go through life and meet people and relationships etc .. I truly believe it's the people your with that make 'quality of life' vs the place you are...


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## Janus (Oct 23, 2013)

Westerncanada said:


> The more and more i go through life and meet people and relationships etc .. I truly believe it's the people your with that make 'quality of life' vs the place you are...


There's truth to that, but there are amazing people everywhere. It's a weird realization.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Speaking as someone who spent several years in southern Ontario and the GTA, I completely agree with the OP. He has seen the light. 

Don't be swayed by the rhetoric about "livable" communities or cities. This is often lumped in with other BS terms like "pedestrian friendly" and what not. Translation: they'll take away parking spots, increase rates for remaining spots, narrow the roads, lower the speed limits, add a bunch of crosswalks, bike lanes, bus lanes and of course luxury towers in the area. In other words, make life he-l for motorists while wasting taxpayer's money on projects that add no value.

That's the real meaning behind the rhetoric you speak of.

Yes, life IS greener on the other side. The smaller the city, the better. Avoid Vancouver, Calgary, GTA/southern Ontario (unless you do not work in the GTA) and Montreal for all the reasons you wrote above.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Don't be swayed by the rhetoric about "livable" communities or cities. This is often lumped in with other BS terms like "pedestrian friendly" and what not. Translation: they'll take away parking spots, increase rates for remaining spots, narrow the roads, lower the speed limits, add a bunch of crosswalks, bike lanes, bus lanes and of course luxury towers in the area. In other words, make life he-l for motorists while wasting taxpayer's money on projects that add no value.


No value, that is, except for people who decide to save a few hundred thousand dollars over their lifetimes by not owning a car or depending on one for transportation. Or people who actually like to walk or bike to get around instead of sitting in a car. Or people who would actually like to see fewer cars on the road because it might give them and their children a lower risk of developing heart disease, respiratory disease, or cancer (take a look at the stats for those diseases in areas near congested roadways).


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Am I the only one who doesn't think the weather is that bad?


I'm fine with the weather here. Not perfect, but ok with me.

Back to the OP - Toronto/GTA is a big place. If you are living out in the burbs and commuting downtown, then yes - that probably sucks. When they say a city is 'liveable' - they are referring to someone who actually lives in the city - not the burbs. If you choose to live in the burbs and do a long commute - you are giving up a lot.

In my opinion, job opportunities is the key draw for any area. I didn't really choose to live in Toronto - it was just the obvious choice if I wanted to get a job, start a career etc. Lots of friends here as well.

I bought a house when it was much cheaper to do so, and I agree with the idea that for a young person, buying a house downtown or close to it, might not be that realistic. That said, renting is still an option. If home ownership and a reasonable commute are the top priorities for you - then a smaller city is probably a good choice.

I think the key to enjoying living in a big city/small town/something inbetween is common sense and flexibility. If you live in a big city, then take advantage of what is available in your area. Same thing if you are in a smaller city. If you live in a colder area then buy a skidoo and take up ice fishing. Both are great fun.

Don't do a long commute - either work closer to where you live or move, so you are closer to where you work and see how that works out.

This reminds me I need to update the biking to work thread. 

As someone else mentioned - why don't you try different cities and see what happens? Or try different setups in your current city (ie live closer to work, accept the weather) etc.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

The only thing I can add to this is that whatever your gripes are about any place in Canada, the only place worse is just about anywhere else. Sure you can find spots in the world that fix any particular gripe you might have, ie: cost of living, crime, weather, etc., but when you put all the attributes together, I suspect Canada for a Canadian will win out everytime. To do an honest comparison you will need to add a few categories like, susceptability to major "act of god" dissasters, political oppression, civil wars, total lack of human rights, religious fanaticism, etc.

I am sure for everyone, like the OP that is thinking about getting out of this country, there are at least 100,000 people in the world, that would change places with you, at the drop of a hat.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

Indeed, if you're not going to enjoy what the city has to offer, you should consider moving out.

Example # 1: I was quite amazed that a major international film festival takes place in Toronto. I enjoyed a few good movies over the years, and consider it one of the good things that Toronto has to offer.

Example # 2: Finance HQ of Canada (at least for now). If you want a career in the finance sector, can't find a better place then Toronto.

Example # 3: Culture. Step outside, and you get to interact with every culture the world has to offer.

Example # 4: obligatory snip at crack cocaine and Rob Ford


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Can't tell if TRM is for real or elaborate satire.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I grew up in Calgary and Kitchener-Waterloo and lived in the third world for a while as an adult, then lived on a farm in a town of 1,000 for a decade. 

I love Toronto so hard. It also seems like a risk-mitigating move on my part to live here - there are a lot of jobs in my chosen field (finance). Moving to a small city with a short commute and lower costs means accepting certain risks: less potential career mobility, fewer jobs in general, likely a cap on expected earnings, lower expected career mobility. 

I biked to work today, FP; I want to know what update you are going to post in the biking to work thread!


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## LifeInsuranceCanada.com (Aug 20, 2012)

MoneyGal said:


> I grew up in Calgary and Kitchener-Waterloo and lived in the third world for a while as an adult, then lived on a farm in a town of 1,000 for a decade.
> 
> I love Toronto so hard. It also seems like a risk-mitigating move on my part to live here - there are a lot of jobs in my chosen field (finance). Moving to a small city with a short commute and lower costs means accepting certain risks: less potential career mobility, fewer jobs in general, likely a cap on expected earnings, lower expected career mobility.
> 
> I biked to work today, FP; I want to know what update you are going to post in the biking to work thread!


Agreed. How does Toronto not rate as one of the best places to live in the entire world? Or pretty much any place in Canada? Maybe Vancouver's better due to climate, but that's nitpicking. 

Toronto's not for me, I like rural/remote and I like the cold (so even where I am is too far south for my personal preferences). But on a realistic appraisal, Toronto's an outstanding place to live. 

I think you're right, this is a 'grass is greener' thing.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

LifeInsuranceCanada.com said:


> How does Toronto not rate as one of the best places to live in the entire world? But on a realistic appraisal, Toronto's an outstanding place to live.


+10!

I also love Toronto dearly, especially after having lived in other countries; one of them with better climate, but with one of the world's worst air. 

Fortunate enough to live in midtown, where I'm close to everything and almost sandwiched between 2 subway lines, so don't have any traffic problems.

Many Canadians don't appreciate how fortunate they are, but complaining takes less time I suppose.


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## Janus (Oct 23, 2013)

Toronto.gal said:


> +10!
> 
> I also love Toronto dearly, especially after having lived in other countries; one of them with better climate, but with one of the world's worst air.
> 
> ...


I generally agree, despite what I wrote before. To the OP, anyone who complains about Toronto to the extent you see here lives in the suburbs. Live in the annex, queen west, or any number of fun/interesting neighbourhoods and you'll fall in love with this weird little city of ours. Just don't spend an hour in a car twice a day and hate your life in the name of a few hundred extra square feet.


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## Jon_Snow (May 20, 2009)

I live in one of the most "liveable" cities in the world (according to all the published lists), a certain western Canadian metropolis... the very minute I no longer need my city based income, I'm outta here. 

I find city living repugnant, where some others find it exhilarating.

I will admit that Canadian big city life is likely better than 90% of the other places out there.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> I biked to work today, FP; I want to know what update you are going to post in the biking to work thread!


I can't find the damn thread....

I biked today. Getting colder for sure with a decent head wind (if you commute westward in the morning as MG & I do). Hopefully that wind will hang around and push us home.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Jon_Snow said:


> I find city living repugnant, where some others find it exhilarating.


As a "country mouse" myself it took me a long time to warm up to living in a city. I still can't say I love it, but I love many things about it. I need my daily dose of nature; when I lived in Vermont I hiked in the woods for an hour or two every day, before and after work, and fell asleep listening to barred owls and coyotes. My first night here in the city I tried to sleep amid the sound of car alarms and freight trains, and my "daily dose of nature" consisted of walking on a path around the city dump. I figured I'd made the biggest mistake of my life. But in some ways the city is the best place for a nature lover to live: if you truly love nature the kindest thing is to not live in it. And my environmental impact is far lower here than it ever was when I lived in the country. Cities have incredible efficiencies, not just in transportation but in the distribution of products and services, energy use, etc.; my carbon footprint here is about 1/10 of what it was in Vermont.

See http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/environmental-advantages-cities for example.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Four Pillars said:


> I can't find the damn thread....
> 
> I biked today. Getting colder for sure with a decent head wind (if you commute westward in the morning as MG & I do). Hopefully that wind will hang around and push us home.


OMG that was my thought the entire ride in. A slightly tough one! I need to figure out a way to warm up in the mornings (not temperature wise); my inbound commute is all slightly uphill. That evening commute almost makes up for it though!


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

Speaking of grass being greener...... I am looking out at my lawn trying to decide if it needs a last cut. Anyone out there east of Hope BC having the same dilemma?


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Florida is great...for three weeks in the winter. You can keep it the rest of the time.

We travel fairly extensively. It is always so good to come back to Canada, even to Toronto though it is no longer our home and we would never move back. You only get to realize just how valuable a Canadian passport is when you travel to other countries. We keep looking for a second home. Everywhere we look comes up short.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I have lived in Toronto, Vancouver Island, Metz France, Ottawa, Toronto, Sarnia, London, Edmonton, Toronto, Vancouver, Puerto Vallarta. I like them all, each for different reasons. I split time between PV, West Van, and Europe now retired.

My main point was that I moved whenever the opportunity looked good. Do not pass up a chance to experience the world. No decision is irreversible. And no place is perfect.


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

For the record, my sister lives in California, and claims to "miss the seasons".

Gah.

I would not live in Toronto unless I had to. But not because of the winter (I am in Ottawa, which is truly cold). Have a look around. There are many nice places to live.


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## Sammi (Nov 12, 2013)

To be honest, out of the places I have traveled, I have yet to find a place better than Toronto. I have no idea why I want to stay but I do. Public transit is a joke so I am taking something that works for me; living very near subway (walk to subway) and 30min subway ride to work vs driving/commuting or taking Go Train.

Places like Hong Kong is unbearable to live. Cute to visit. Public transit craps all over Toronto but the small spaces, wet feeling and the weather is unbearable to me.

Japan is great but I don't see myself living there.

Hawaii is amazingly beaufitul but I don't think they have it all for me. 

Etc


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I have spent a lifetime living multi-years in places like Edmonton, Calgary, GTA, St John's, Oklahoma City, Northern Virginia (Washington DC), Houston, and Anchorage. Of all of them, Northern Virginia was the best from a cultural and climate perspective, but difficult traffic and congestion wise. Houston was by far the least expensive with plenty of culture and other things to do, and great access to just about anywhere. St John's, Edmonton and Toronto were the very worse places to live (in that order).

After all that, I ultimately retired in the greater Kelowna area of BC (about 180,000). It has the right mix of things to do, vinyards and wineries, orchards, boating, adequate commercial and retail options, manageable traffic, and reasonable health care... with a climate that overall may be the absolute best in Canada. If one needs a big shopping or culture fix, Vancouver is 4 hrs away. The primary downsides are somewhat grey skies (but much less than Vancouver) in the valley bottom in winter (but great skiing up in the mountains in the sunshine), and air travel connections (Kelowna International does not have nearly the options Vancouver or Calgary has). Perhaps a total of 30-50 cm of snow along the valley (lake) bottom, almost all of which is in December and January, and which melts within days or a few weeks. Recent retirees on our street this past year have come from Alberta, Saskatchewan, and GTA. Most people here are from somewhere else.


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## Hawkdog (Oct 26, 2012)

kcowan said:


> I have lived in Toronto, Vancouver Island, Metz France, Ottawa, Toronto, Sarnia, London, Edmonton, Toronto, Vancouver, Puerto Vallarta. I like them all, each for different reasons. I split time between PV, West Van, and Europe now retired.
> 
> My main point was that I moved whenever the opportunity looked good. Do not pass up a chance to experience the world. No decision is irreversible. And no place is perfect.


+1 I have not met very many people who changed their jobs and regretted it, in fact most find it a breath of fresh air.

I have never spent any length of time living in a big city, i have travelled to quite a few though, some of my favourites not in Canada are Sidney Australia, Lisbon Portugal, and Auckland NZ. 
City I didn't much care for are in South America, Bogota Colombia for one although I loved rural Colombia

It all really depends on what you like. If you like skiing/boarding, fishing, mtn biking and want to be close, like less than 20 minutes you probably won't like Toronto. 
If you like noise, traffic, fine dining and shopping you probably love Toronto.

Personally, I think large cities are great, to visit.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Hawkdog said:


> 1. didn't much care for *Bogota*, Colombia..
> 2. If you like *noise, traffic, fine dining and shopping* you probably love Toronto.


*1.* You probably would have enjoyed San Andrés Island better, which is much more than a beach & sand paradise!
*2.* You left out a lot, eh, like the rich theatre scene, which is just behind that of New York.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_in_Toronto


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Hawkdog said:


> If you like noise, traffic, fine dining and shopping you probably love Toronto.


The great thing about cities, though, is that they can accommodate a wide range of interests and lifestyles. We live on a very quiet street in Montréal, go out to eat once or twice a month and splurge on a fancier restaurant once every year or two, and rarely go shopping except to buy things we actually need. We've been to about four movies, three concerts, one opera, and two plays in the 12 years I've been living here. We spend most of our time at home or in our garden. Given that we take advantage of so little of the city's conventional offerings, you might think we'd be better off living in the country but we love the convenience, access to good ingredients for cooking (including fresh produce grown here in the city itself), no need for a car (we're joining a car-share service and getting rid of the car altogether), etc.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

As has been pointed out. It's all perception. You can't move to a different place and expect it to be automatically "better" because the biggest factor in that determination hasn't changed (you).

I've travelled across Canada and the U.S. and lived in a handful of different place in Canada. All I could tell you is that everbody thinks their town, city, street, whatever, is the greatest in the world. Or they hate it and it's the worst. I'd suggest that in the developed nations, it's all pretty much the same. 

The best thing you could do is figure out what you want in a place to live. City or town or rural. Then the climate, hot, cold, wet or dry. 

Some places are more expensive, and others are cheaper. But there's no point saving lots of money and not being happy.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

If you bought 10+ years ago, Toronto's housing costs were not particularly exorbitant. This reads a little like, "should a person with my preferences and in my economic situation stay in Toronto or move elsewhere?"

I really enjoyed the Econ 101 class I took a *million* years ago which pretty persuasively demonstrated that moving to an area with low housing costs is *more* risky economically than moving to a place with higher / rising housing costs.


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## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

kcowan: You mentioned Metz. Was that with the RCAF? I was there from 62 to 63. My father was stationed there when it was 1st Air Div Headquarters.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

OP if you are young and able, definitely try moving around. Everyone likes different things and deciding where to live is so complex based on your lifestyle, job etc etc. You clearly won't know yourself what you like until you've tried it. (I'm guessing Florida is not the place for you!) You could look for a job that needs people to travel a lot for work. Not only will you get to try other places for free, but financially you save a small fortune at the same time. If you can get certain work experience in Toronto first it could do good for you elsewhere. By the same token, international experience can really boost the resume as well.

If 2-4 months counts as "living" then I've lived in more places than I care to type. Every single one of them was great for a few months, but certain ones I could stay a lot longer. I'm excited to get back to Canada for the nature (and winter sports actually) but I will miss a lot of things in Europe as well. I can't really fathom just spending the rest of my life in Canada though. It was a great place to grow up, it's an amazing place to be from (thanks mostly to stereotypes) and it's the familiar place I will always come back to. There is just so much more you can only experience by living in other places, like different work cultures and outlooks on life.

Just be flexible and keep an open mind. You won't see the other side of places if you have crazy expectations or focus on the way you perceive things should be done. Lots of people moved to or want to move to Canada, but many people don't want leave their own country either. Of course all the ones who moved to Canada will say it's better, but if they were happy before they wouldn't have moved in the first place... Just try to see the good in other countries instead of convincing yourself that one is simply "above all the rest" That way of thinking imo is no different than all the other socially conditioned isms.


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## Taraz (Nov 24, 2013)

The biggest factor would be the income to cost of living ratio, IMHO. If you can make your Toronto wages and find a cheap place to live with the features you like (warm weather, bike lanes, beaches, city life, whatever), go for it. Don't forget to factor in health care costs and possibly higher property taxes if you're living in the states.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

Canadians can't just move to Florida and start working. That's not an option at all unless you have dual citizenship or some letters after your name in a field where a thousand Americans aren't already lined up for the next job.
For me, Toronto was the place to go to get valuable training and experience in my field. As soon as the opportunity arose, I bailed and I think that move probably saved my life. Stress related illnesses killed all my ancestors. Aside from the occasional concert, a big city really stresses me out and doesn't have anything I enjoy. 
My blood pressure climbs like mad ( I have never actually measured it  ) when I have to go south of the 401. I could care less about the great restaurants. I like good food but always lose my appetite when I smell big city sewers. 
Since moving to the country, human poop is all I can smell now when I go into a big city. I suppose if I lived there again I would become less aware of it.


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## Siwash (Sep 1, 2013)

Ag Driver said:


> I do chuckle when the Torontonian's complain about the cold and think that Muskoka is "The North"  Toronto is damn near as South as you can get in Canada.
> 
> For the record, I wouldn't be caught dead living in Toronto. It is simply outrageously expensive and far to busy for my liking! If you are not happy where you are in the GTA, then yes...the grass is MUCH greener anywhere else in Canada


Toronto's weather is better than pretty much anywhere in Canada.. I was in Winnipeg in late APril and t was between -10 and -15 the entire week I was there… ice and snow still everywhere…it was in the upper teens in T.O. and mostly sunny when I left and came back… no thank you… Vancouver over the March Break.. rained everyday.. My cousin lives in NFLD and it snows or rains 14 months out the 12 months

Traffic is bad and transit sucks, but the inner city has some great neighbourhoods.. and the best dining perhaps in North America. Add tons of festivals and theatre, shopping.. it's not that bad…


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## Itchy54 (Feb 12, 2012)

Fun reading everyone's ideas. I have lived in many places thanks to my Dad in the Armed Forces: Ottawa, PEI, Fontainbleu France, Toronto, St Hubert PQ, Comox Bc...then on to Vancouver (university), Back to Comox, Squamish, Terrace BC, Lillooet BC (this place got my heart...), Fort St John (horrible) and now Kamloops (my second Favourite)

What I learned about myself. I hate winter. I hate rain all the time. I like mountains. I love clean air. I hate shopping. Having a good hospital close is a must. Stable economy is important (sorry my beloved Lillooet, you have nothing like that any more...so sad).

Some people are cut out for city living. I am not. Some are cut out for country living. Not me, I need to be able to get groceries when needed and be able to get to the gym every day.

it does depend, of course, on the person. I can, and have, found the good in every place I have lived but there are places I would never go back to. I think we found just the right spot here in Kamloops. Victoria might be better, certainly better winters. Hmmmm, got me thinking....


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

The grass is not greener. Just different. 

I've lived and worked in a lot of different countries and I love staying in Vancouver or go somewhere cold occasionally which is a weird thing to say, but the cold triggers a different state of mind. I always prefer being somewhere cold if I have a large programming project that will take 6 months. 

A lot of Europeans are now escaping to Canada because the tax there is too high. Florida has a lot of moisture problems and fungus, before long you'll be complaining about being too hot and humid or the people. 

But there will be a place that suits your temperament, you just have to try and find it. A new trend that I've been seeing is that there's this new breed of people who are permanently travelling to different countries while working at the same time. Not tied down by location for their jobs and searching, like many others, for the place that suits them just right. It takes effort to build a life like this, but it is not impossible, especially as Canadians we are blessed with the possibility of multiple citizenships. Not everyone in the world can do the same.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

First winter storm is coming to Ottawa. Up to 25cm of snow is expected in the next 48 hours.

Still, I wouldn't go back to Toronto unless I absolutely had to. An occasional snow storm is a minor nuisance compared to ungodly traffic jams in T.O. This thread brought back the memories of my daily 401 commute. <<<shudder>>>

I love Toronto traffic... said no one ever.


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## Janus (Oct 23, 2013)

Sammi said:


> Places like Hong Kong is unbearable to live. Cute to visit. Public transit craps all over Toronto but the small spaces, wet feeling and the weather is unbearable to me.


Unbelievably misinformed - I imagine you've been to Central, wandered around TST, went for a few drinks in Lan Kwai Fong and called it a day? Hong Kong has such a huge amount of quality of life factors over and above Toronto. When you've been on a Sunday junk, or done night-hiking on victoria peak, then feel free to pass judgment on quality of life in Hong Kong. I have rugby practice tonight... outdoors... on an oceanside field. There is so much more to offer in HK than you think.


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## Siwash (Sep 1, 2013)

Actually, I think Cdn cities in general are WAY over-rated… Sorry Vancouver, but I never understand how it and Toronto and Mtl rank in that annual poll as top liveable cities… Must be a Cdn-made survey.. 

if you've traveled you know canada is a really "small" place..


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## MasterCard (Aug 2, 2013)

GoldStone said:


> First winter storm is coming to Ottawa. Up to 25cm of snow is expected in the next 48 hours.
> 
> Still, I wouldn't go back to Toronto unless I absolutely had to. An occasional snow storm is a minor nuisance compared to ungodly traffic jams in T.O. This thread brought back the memories of *my daily 401 commute.* <<<shudder>>>
> 
> I love Toronto traffic... said no one ever.


That highway is the world's largest parking lot. From hell.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Causalien said:


> A lot of Europeans are now escaping to Canada because *the tax there is too high*


Ha, _that _is hilarious.
It aint much better this side of the pond, innit mite?


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## Janus (Oct 23, 2013)

MasterCard said:


> That highway is the world's largest parking lot. From hell.


Agreed. So why do so many people resign themselves to hating 2 hours of every weekday for the rest of their working lives? It boggles my mind.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Janus said:


> Agreed. So why do so many people resign themselves to hating 2 hours of every weekday for the rest of their working lives? It boggles my mind.


Plenty of reasons. Not all of them hate it for one. Maybe they are living at home in the burbs and saving lots of money and getting home cooked meals? Extended family - a lot easier to deal with kids if you have grandparents nearby. Can't afford the house they want closer to work?

I think it mostly boils down to a lot of good paying jobs in downtown T.O. and people live where they can so they can get to those jobs. Some people are ok with downtown living (and small houses etc), others wants the 4 bedroom house and monster lawn and are willing to trade time for that. 

I've met a (fairly small) number of people who live in different cities (ie 1.5 hour-2 hour drive from T.O.) and rent apartments downtown for during the week. They want to live where & how they want to live - even if they only really 'live' there on weekends. Kind of nutty in my opinion, but hey - if it works for them, then that's their choice.


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## Janus (Oct 23, 2013)

Four Pillars said:


> Plenty of reasons. Not all of them hate it for one. Maybe they are living at home in the burbs and saving lots of money and getting home cooked meals? Extended family - a lot easier to deal with kids if you have grandparents nearby. Can't afford the house they want closer to work?
> 
> I think it mostly boils down to a lot of good paying jobs in downtown T.O. and people live where they can so they can get to those jobs. Some people are ok with downtown living (and small houses etc), others wants the 4 bedroom house and monster lawn and are willing to trade time for that.
> 
> I've met a (fairly small) number of people who live in different cities (ie 1.5 hour-2 hour drive from T.O.) and rent apartments downtown for during the week. They want to live where & how they want to live - even if they only really 'live' there on weekends. Kind of nutty in my opinion, but hey - if it works for them, then that's their choice.


All fair points - I've got nothing against commuting if you actually are fine with it. I'm talking more about those who despise it, but consciously trade 2 hours of misery every day for a larger house - which to me seems like a lousy tradeoff. Time is the most precious thing we have.


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## blin10 (Jun 27, 2011)

Janus said:


> All fair points - I've got nothing against commuting if you actually are fine with it. I'm talking more about those who despise it, but consciously trade 2 hours of misery every day for a larger house - which to me seems like a lousy tradeoff. Time is the most precious thing we have.


seems pretty fair trade off to me, rather drive for an hour then live in a 1000 sq.ft. shithole with a bunch of druggies... to each its own


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

blin10 said:


> seems pretty fair trade off to me, rather drive for an hour then live in a 1000 sq.ft. shithole with a bunch of druggies


That's a false dilemma, also called false dichotomy, black-or-white thinking, the either-or fallacy, the fallacy of false choice, the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses, the fallacy of the false alternative or the fallacy of the excluded middle. :biggrin:

In other words, you don't have to choose between two miserable options. Better alternatives exist.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> Ha, _that _is hilarious.
> It aint much better this side of the pond, innit mite?


Ha. Yeah, well tell them that but fact of the matter is, they are here, in Vancouver so we must have something better. 

2 hours commute per day isn't that bad. I remember living in Montreal, I was on the island and my commute is 2 hours per day due to the snow. Summer? 30 minutes per day. I think it was the commute that made me start taking the subways so I can get to work refreshed instead of stressed out. Plus don't need to shovel snow every morning and night.


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## Islenska (May 4, 2011)

C'mon you guys Northern Manitoba is the only spot to live in Canada......

Seriously I enjoy it here in the boonies, the trick is to get away, which we do quite often (2 sons in Winnipeg), and some really hot locale during winters. Beyond that it is country living at its best, right now I'm gearing for some ice fishing and revving up the Ski-Doo, also 5minutes to work and the city (town) lights. Everyone knows a pile of people and there are no strangers.


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## Janus (Oct 23, 2013)

blin10 said:


> seems pretty fair trade off to me, rather drive for an hour then live in a 1000 sq.ft. shithole with a bunch of druggies... to each its own


... or a beautiful apartment 10 minutes from work shared only with one's girlfriend. haha... Honestly I think this takes the cake for most ignorant thing seen on this forum so far. 

Enjoy the winter driving this season, mate.


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## blin10 (Jun 27, 2011)

Janus said:


> ... or a beautiful apartment 10 minutes from work shared only with one's girlfriend. haha... Honestly I think this takes the cake for most ignorant thing seen on this forum so far.
> 
> Enjoy the winter driving this season, mate.


what's ignorant is your statement "So why do so many people resign themselves to hating 2 hours of every weekday for the rest of their working lives? It boggles my mind. "... i work from home, so no driving for me, but thanks...


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## Janus (Oct 23, 2013)

blin10 said:


> what's ignorant is your statement "So why do so many people resign themselves to hating 2 hours of every weekday for the rest of their working lives? It boggles my mind. "... i work from home, so no driving for me, but thanks...


Aptly dodged my quip - well done.  

I stand by my statement - people have choice, and I said "so many", not "all". But I digress, as we've gotten off topic.


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## the_apprentice (Jan 31, 2013)

Everyone's situation is different and it's easy to judge looking at it from one perspective. Nothing is perfect, and there are pros and cons to each. I personally refuse to drive longer than 30 minutes, but like blin10 said, "To each his own".

Fun fact: The average commute in Toronto is just over 30 minutes.


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## Sammi (Nov 12, 2013)

2 hrs is nothing. I used to live in Mississauga and it took almost 3 hrs a day to get to my office downtown. From driving to the Go Train, taking the Go and then walking to my office from Union. I couldn't picture myself doing this for the next 30 years so I sold my house and moved to North York where I have a 2 min walk to the subway and then a 35min subway ride to work.

Totally worth it.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

pwm said:


> kcowan: You mentioned Metz. Was that with the RCAF? I was there from 62 to 63. My father was stationed there when it was 1st Air Div Headquarters.


Yes it was an air force posting. Lived 'on the economy' in an apartment on Moselle Island. Hardship allowance and cost of living made it 4x more lucrative than being a graduate engineer in France. Plus we got to shop in the US PX in Germany and at their gas stations throughout Germany. Worked in a chateau on a hill. Those were the days!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Causalien said:


> The grass is not greener. Just different.
> 
> A lot of Europeans are now escaping to Canada because the tax there is too high. Florida has a lot of moisture problems and fungus, before long you'll be complaining about being too hot and humid or the people.
> 
> But there will be a place that suits your temperament, you just have to try and find it.


In another forum a Belgian recently opened a long thread about moving to Florida. The Americans tore Florida to shreds and begged to trade places with him. Seems Europeans want to move to US because it's different and vice versa. Lots of Americans are moving to the beaches of Spain, Portugal, Croatia, Greece etc etc etc. However if you are getting nowhere in a country with dirt low wages, of course you would beg to get into Canada and work the many min wage jobs the Canadian millennials won't touch. Same thing in Germany.. the immigrants start at the bottom while Germans are moving anywhere else. Experienced westerners are moving to the exact same countries the immigrants came from and living better because of the low cost of living. My friend moved from a great job on Bay street to Seoul working joke hours for 6 months a year still makes enough to live a life he could never have imagined in Toronto. He says more Canadians would be moving if they knew what's out there. Some countries are better for people in different positions etc. Globalization is slowly equalizing the world.. and people who are able to move in either direction can take advantage I think.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> Many Canadians don't appreciate how fortunate they are, but complaining takes less time I suppose.


When you posted this, I thought you were making some extra assumptions about the OP. But considering that the only response they have left on this interesting thread is yet another complaint about the traffic, I'm thinking you hit the nail on the head.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

Sammi said:


> 2 hrs is nothing. I used to live in Mississauga and it took almost 3 hrs a day to get to my office downtown.


I live in s/w Mississauga. Bought here after returning from working in subtropical Brisbane Australia. 

I had the benefit of a strong idea I would be offered to chance to buy into the firm I work for a few years after my return to the GTA, and since then I have.

I live about a 3 minute car trip from work, including dropping my son at his school in the morning (no traffic lights even). In nicer weather it is a very pleasant 12 minute bike ride, a lot of it even on a dedicated bike path. 

Prior to living where I do now, while working for the same company I lived at the bottom end of the 427 off Browns Line.
The commute was 16km, but against the main commuting flow, and was rareley congested.

I know a lot of peiople are not tied to the same employer long term.

But if you are, why not move closer? 
My wife went back to work after our kids got older. Prior to kids she worked downtown. Now she drive 15km out to an offuce in Oakville.
Maybe $10,000 less a year than downtown, but she is out the door at 7:30 and home by 5:20 and that includes a stop at the health club and rounding up the youngest one at school on the way home.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

I guess the takeaway from this thread is that "liveable" is an extremely subjective quality.

Those big cities can be great if you can afford a decent piece of real estate, don't need a car, don't mind crowds and noise, etc. Rural areas are fine if you don't mind using a car to get anywhere, and don't mind everyone knowing who you are.

I like small cities, personally (around 100K people). Big enough to allow me to keep my anonymity, yet small enough to avoid most of the big city issues, and cheaper.


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## Hawkdog (Oct 26, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> *1.* You probably would have enjoyed San Andrés Island better, which is much more than a beach & sand paradise!
> *2.* You left out a lot, eh, like the rich theatre scene, which is just behind that of New York.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_in_Toronto


I will do some research on San Andres Island, but I really liked Colombia.
I did a 2 week birding tour through the coffee region of Colombia, Bogota and Cali were just starting and ending points. Not really a person who likes sitting around on the beach, i sunburn in seconds.
I like this sort of thing: http://www.tranquilobay.com/ (Panama) and recommend the place, it was great.

Yes, I left out the rich culture of TO, like the rich theatre scene, but I figure those are things you do when you visit the big city. But hey we have culture here in Smithers, Alex Cuba lives here and the company I work for has hired him to do the music at our last 2 xmas functions 

As previously mentioned we Canadians have it good, whether its the big city or the small town.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Even within cities, quality of life varies a lot. I agree that commuting on the 401 is not ideal--so I don't do it.


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## Sammi (Nov 12, 2013)

Ponderling said:


> I live in s/w Mississauga. Bought here after returning from working in subtropical Brisbane Australia.
> 
> I had the benefit of a strong idea I would be offered to chance to buy into the firm I work for a few years after my return to the GTA, and since then I have.
> 
> ...


Yeah I am tied to my work long term so that is why I sold my home and moved much closer to work. I don't like living downtown so that is why I chose North York. 

My family still lives in Mississauga and I love it dearly so I go back to visit


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

I wish my commute was a little longer. I only have time to listen to two or three songs, and the car is barely warmed up by the time I get to work. I wouldn't mind a 20-30 minute commute; it's when it gets longer than 30 minutes that I might have second thoughts.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

25-minute bike ride is the perfect length for me! I have had three jobs in the last decade and they've all been about 25 minutes' ride from my house. It's a criterion in job searching for me


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ Depends on the kind of commute. I wouldn't mind a 30 minute commute in clear traffic. My current commute of driving through suburbia 10 km in 15 mins with 24 (I counted) traffic lights between me and work can be a bit grating. Especially the intersections that take several cycles to get through. I would bike, but I don't want to die.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

My criterion is also paired with the criterion I deployed in choosing my house, which was "less than 10 minutes' walk from 24-h public transit and situated on local bike paths"

My commute is 90% in marked bike lanes. No dying.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> My commute is 90% in marked bike lanes. No dying.


I hate those bike lanes - I have my hands on the brakes all the time.

I prefer to ride down to the lake to take advantage of the trails where the main hazard is rabbits. Surprisingly enough, I saw three on my way home last night.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MG, I totally understand. Biking downtown is different than biking on six lane suburban roads with 70-80 kph speed limits and lots of transport trucks, concrete trucks, dump trucks, etc. Where I live does have a beautiful bike path extended east west that I would happily use. I'm not aware of anything similar north-south.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> It's a criterion in job searching for me


It's also a top criteria of house searching for me. Originally because an extra 30 min commute would be an extra hour wasted ever day.. but then I lived so close that I prefer a leisurely bike ride (no sweaty spandex warrior and no getting in a hot/cold car for 10 mins) Before I always wanted to live outside of a small city where I had no neighbours behind me but now living in the heart of town and 5 min walk to a whisper quiet train is pretty convenient. For $100 I can be just about anywhere in Europe on a whim and not have to find parking for the car. In Canada I'll go back to the no neighbors behind me criterion though, the infrastructure in many Canadian cities is now getting really neglected (decades behind in maintenance, roads crumbling apart and overcrowded etc) and I prefer to only venture in there when required. I find the nature view is always cheaper and lower taxes, and much less traffic. I like my cheap manual transmissions.


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

andrewf said:


> ^ Depends on the kind of commute. I wouldn't mind a 30 minute commute in clear traffic. My current commute of driving through suburbia 10 km in 15 mins with 24 (I counted) traffic lights between me and work can be a bit grating. Especially the intersections that take several cycles to get through. I would bike, but I don't want to die.


That was my exact commute for the last 5 years but I now have 20 km total most of it on the highway plus 7 traffic lights which takes 16-20 minutes. I far prefer the highway even if its slow over red light to red light madness. Helps that my car has radar cruise control and just follows the car in front without having to touch brake or throttle. Makes rear ending the car in front impossible even if I get distracted.


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## MasterCard (Aug 2, 2013)

What's the job market like in South Florida?
What types of fields/careers are in-demand or at least sustainable in that realm of the world?


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Lots of people ride bikes to work here!
I don't(can't)contractor.
One of my biggest pet peeves though in life is the biking community.
Do you people know how hazardous you are!
There is a smugness I find bikers have and boy do they cause havoc on a 2 line road(you block just enough of the line that a driver in a car can not pass around you without the risk of swiping the car in the next lane and or one one decides to be a hero on a bike and drives in the center with cars behind!(30km below speed limit)
I get the bike movement but man does it boil my blood.it is like a rudeness(like a bike commuter is a special kind of snow flake)
Just this week I almost took out a guy driving his bike on a main road(our streets are covered in ICE)
Am I the only one?Not trying to sound like a jerk but I don't get it(just don't bike on the street)can not stand it.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

m3s said:


> It's also a top criteria of house searching for me. Originally because an extra 30 min commute would be an extra hour wasted ever day.. but then I lived so close that I prefer a leisurely bike ride (no sweaty spandex warrior and no getting in a hot/cold car for 10 mins) Before I always wanted to live outside of a small city where I had no neighbours behind me but now living in the heart of town and 5 min walk to a whisper quiet train is pretty convenient. For $100 I can be just about anywhere in Europe on a whim and not have to find parking for the car. In Canada I'll go back to the no neighbors behind me criterion though, the infrastructure in many Canadian cities is now getting really neglected (decades behind in maintenance, roads crumbling apart and overcrowded etc) and I prefer to only venture in there when required. I find the nature view is always cheaper and lower taxes, and much less traffic. *I like my cheap manual transmissions*.


Also a built-in anti-theft device! (We only drive standards)


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

donald said:


> Do you people know how hazardous you are!


Are you kidding me? Bikes are hazardous to car drivers? Lol - that's new one.



donald said:


> you block just enough of the line that a driver in a car can not pass around you without the risk of swiping the car in the next lane and or one one decides to be a hero on a bike and drives in the center with cars behind!(30km below speed limit)


Then don't pass. Wait until there is an opening and then pass or switch lanes. That's called good driving.

It doesn't matter if it's a slow cyclist/slow driver/parked car etc - treat them all the same and don't hit them or get yourself into an accident. It's not that hard!

If it's legal for a cyclist to be on a road then us drivers (yes, that's right - I own a car as well as a bike) have to share the road with them regardless of how we feel about it.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

donald, bikes and cars can easily share the road without much issue if everyone is a little mindful and courteous. I think both the motorists and cyclists are to blame for smugness in NA. Here the oncoming cars are very good at reading the situation and squeezing over and/or adjusting speed slightly, while the bike is also aware of a passing car and squeezes over a bit as well. In NA everyone drives as if they are at least twice as wide as they actually are and get upset if they have to adjust cruise control, put down their Timmies, or stop texting because a little bike is on the road.. Our roads have more than enough space for both.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

You're supposed to treat bikes like there is a car shaped box around them. Same goes for motorcycles. On busy streets, I just slow down and follow until I can change lanes.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Mike,a few days ago a clown(obvious to traffic)just about caused a accident at a major intersection while doing his hands signals on roads covered in ice!
Get off the road!i see these guys in the winter and I just shake my head,IMO anybody who rides a bike in winter on major road ways is a idiot period!i don't feel like this needs a lot of explaining.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

donald said:


> Mike,a few days ago a clown(obvious to traffic)just about caused a accident at a major intersection while doing his hands signals on roads covered in ice!
> Get off the road!i see these guys in the winter and I just shake my head,IMO anybody who rides a bike in winter on major road ways is a idiot period!i don't feel like this needs a lot of explaining.


I think you are talking about something different - did the rider fall down on the ice? 

If so, common sense has to be used - bikes just don't work on slippery conditions.

Winter doesn't automatically mean ice - last winter, there weren't very many slippery days.

Whenever we got some snow, I usually just rode on the sidewalks (illegal I know, but there were almost no pedestrians and I stay out of their way). No way I'm riding close to cars in slippery conditions. I might wipe out and the cars can lose control at any time.

Not all cyclists follow my line of thinking however.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Green light with a yield to the left and a late hand signal,I just about pushed him and his bike up the shoulder and into the traffic sign.
At the next light he made it clear he wasn't happy I laid on my horn.
Go eat another granola bar.


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## Hawkdog (Oct 26, 2012)

andrewf said:


> You're supposed to treat bikes like there is a car shaped box around them. Same goes for motorcycles. On busy streets, I just slow down and follow until I can change lanes.


People are supposed to do the speed limit and stop when the light is red to, some days they appear to optional rules.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

Tele-commuting! What ever happened to that concept? My commute consists of getting up, turn left to the kitchen to fire up the kettle.... back to the bathroom for my shower etc. Back to the kitchen to make the coffee, thence to my workplace.... the livingroom to fire up my 2 computers. Whew! I am tired just thinking about it


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## blin10 (Jun 27, 2011)

donald said:


> Mike,a few days ago a clown(obvious to traffic)just about caused a accident at a major intersection while doing his hands signals on roads covered in ice!
> Get off the road!i see these guys in the winter and I just shake my head,IMO anybody who rides a bike in winter on major road ways is a idiot period!i don't feel like this needs a lot of explaining.


don't get me started on those bike idiots... seems like around here they don't care too much when they're riding, cars are invisible to them.. I agree, you need to be complete moron riding a bike in a busy area while doing hand signals... sometimes I think to myself, "most of them ride bikes to exercise, but they're running huge risk getting hit by a car (when 1000's of cars pass by them behind their back, doesn't take much for someone not to pay attention)"


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

I ride a bike myself (and drive as well), and I have to admit that some of my fellow cyclists seem to be insufficiently frightened.

But you automobilists can kill us much more easily than we can kill you. Please be careful (especially of the dumbass kids with earplugs on - they are so vulnerable).


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

wendi1 said:


> (especially of the dumbass kids with *earplugs on*).


Indeed!

And not only cyclists, but every single day, I see pedestrians [young and not so young], crossing the streets without paying any attention to drivers, but very focused on their iGadgets.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Glad I am not alone blin.
I believe in risk/ratio's-meaning if you enter into a situation/environment where there is obviously a disadvantages(ie: riding a bike in winter)accept it and know you are likely in the wrong and a nuisance.(don't be surprised or ask for special treatment)
I'll never forget(about 5 yrs ago)I went on a ski trip(we were ski-ing on a black diamond run)A mother with her son and daughter were ''hanging'' on a plateau where 2 runs cross,i was clipping @least 50Km/hr,i came into the opening and a 8 year old boy was standing there!I body slammed him!I hammered him!(safety was dispatched from the resort)AND I was the big bad jerk!My buddies still laugh/bug me about it(mother and boy were crying,mother was yelling at me,it was her boy or the forest and I had 4 seconds)anyways,you put yourself in a environment where your asking for trouble-take ownership and don't cry!M.O
Sometimes in society the ''victim'' gets blurry!


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I don't care if a idoit rides his bike but I won't feel sorry or take responsibility if he gets injured or killed


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

You're a class act donald. Welcome to my ignore list...


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Whatever four pillar,its a forum........grow thicker skin bud,my comments shouldn't get you in a knot,you that sensitive?It is my opinion!
news flash,people have different thoughts on things!
you a cry baby?


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

donald said:


> Whatever four pillar,its a forum........grow thicker skin bud,my comments shouldn't get you in a knot,you that sensitive?It is my opinion!
> news flash,people have different thoughts on things!
> you a cry baby?


I don't think it's that Donald. I think the issue he has with you is that you're an idiot.


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## blin10 (Jun 27, 2011)

none said:


> I don't think it's that Donald. I think the issue he has with you is that you're an idiot.


why is he an idiot ? his logic seems to be spot on in my opinion... sometimes I wonder how some people survive in this world with no brains (in general)


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## MasterCard (Aug 2, 2013)

Thread derail....


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I am a idiot?because I think one is a idiot for riding a bike on a major street in winter?
Think about it.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

donald said:


> I am a idiot?


Yes.

*an


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## blin10 (Jun 27, 2011)

none said:


> Yes.
> 
> *an


sorry to say this but it seems like you are who's the idiot... we are not in school writing English tests here


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

C'mon guys. Can we cool down a bit and avoid calling people names?


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Yeah. what's with the forum today? Everyone seems to be pretty grouchy. 

Winter setting in maybe?


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

blin10 said:


> sorry to say this but it seems like you are who's the idiot... we are not in school writing English tests here


That is obvious.


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## blin10 (Jun 27, 2011)

none said:


> Yeah. what's with the forum today? Everyone seems to be pretty grouchy.
> 
> Winter setting in maybe?


you called someone an idiot and now saying what's with the forum? lol


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Blin is right none,english class is out.I wrote my post because I knew I would draw 1 or 2 in(you and pillar's it turns out)
think about it,your EASYEEEE.
I am long cat,ichan,gm---+2k today in my trading acct,stocks are like people,they can be played.
All about emotions none.
I aint dumb pal,i can assure you that.Money doesn't care who you think you are.
You stood tall till cc called you out-That is all one needs to know about you----weak backbone.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

^ what the hell did I just read?


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

That is the point none,lets just leave it alone and go back to talking about what is better-Toronto or van co co or even saska bush.where is the green grass?


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## Canadian (Sep 19, 2013)

If there was one city with the greenest grass, wouldn't we all live there?


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Canadian said:


> If there was one city with the greenest grass, wouldn't we all live there?


It's called California. 

(which I know is not a city but do I ever miss it)


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

eder grass looks good


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## Canadian (Sep 19, 2013)

none said:


> It's called California.
> 
> (which I know is not a city but do I ever miss it)


What part of California, though? LA and San Fran are great for visits. I have a friend who lives in San Diego and she absolutely loves it. A lot of the Californian cities have more cons than pros in my mi- oh look, we've talked ourselves back into a circle :tongue-new:


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Haha,

yeah, I'm talking about San Diego & Santa Barbara. If I could live there (job) I would do it in a second, What a place!


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I think riding a bike anywhere is California is a fool's errand. And lovely green grass under the sprinklers, otherwise brown.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

I think riding a bike anywhere in Canada is a fools errand -- have you been outside lately. Blech!


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

kcowan said:


> ... And lovely green grass under the sprinklers, otherwise brown.


 ... well I did read about the California city that when the housing crisis hit, they started painting the vacant house's grass so it would appear green. As I recall, the environmental groups didn't like it ....


Cheers


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

There's a house in Cobourg that has artificial grass; looks quite out of place in late winter.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> ... well I did read about the California city that when the housing crisis hit, they started painting the vacant house's grass so it would appear green. As I recall, the environmental groups didn't like it ....Cheers


I believe it was green vegetable dye (because paint would kill the grass).


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