# Anyone Know of Any Free Downloadable Design Software



## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I just want to build a small deck with stairs and was wondering if there is any basic design software out there, that preferably is free and downloadable, that people have used before. I can draw it on paper but some computerized help could come in handy as well.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

I think google sketchup is pretty powerful for what it is. Not a huge learning curve. Don't think it would do like stringer and joist design for a deck, but that shouldn't be hard.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

At one time I did deck design and sales part time. A long story and I won't go into here. The point is, I am familiar with deck design and have had exposure to several deck design specific software programs. Bottom line, I could design and draw with a pencil faster than with any program. I also found the software programs to have limitations that my brain did not have.

Rather than spend time and effort on any kind of CAD program, I would spend it on getting the actual design right. Most decks that I see are crap as far as the actual design is concerned. Take a look at the decks on this link for example: https://www.decks.com/pictures

The only one I consider good design on page 1 for example, is the 'Vermont Woods' deck. All the rest could have been better. Going through all the pages, few are what I would call a good design. Having designed and sold over 100 decks, I came to realize several things. You can design a deck that will cost more and some companies will do that to increase profit. You can design a deck that will cost less and some will do that to get an order. Neither of those methods will design the best looking deck however.

A deck will design itself if the designer simply looks at the site and what it tells you in terms of the house and the land. Railings and staircases are to be avoided whenever possible in a good design. If you take a typical back yard, it is usually a rectangle with a fence around 3 sides and the house on the fourth side. It's a fenced in 'box'. If you then build a rectangular deck with a railing around it, it is a 'box' inside a 'box'. A deck should be as near seamless a transition from inside the house to out in your garden as possible. Anything that interferes with that visually such as a railing is a bad thing.

If you look at that Vermont Woods deck example, there is only a railing to one side where there is an apparent height issue. But look at the rest of it, from the doorway out of the house there is a clear and open view leading the eye out into the garden.

The Vermont Woods deck example starts out level from the doorway, imagine it with steps instead leading down to the same size deck area all on one level. Not nearly as good a design as the two levels. Changing levels with one or two steps in between is far better than stairs to one level. Changing levels also allows you to avoid railings. You can drop a deck from doorway level down a level at a time for as many levels as needed and never have a stair at all. Changing levels also creates a more interesting design, one level is boring.

Most people underestimate the size of deck they require if it is anything other than just a landing outside a door with a staircase down to a lowever ground level. If you want to have a table and 4 chairs on it for example, you need an area 3X3 metres square. If you want to have a barbecue on it as well, you need to add at least another 1x2 metres. Otherwise you find yourself having to push the chairs in to walk around the table etc. The space is just too small. People often do this to 'save money'. Ending up with an area that is basically unusable for the intended purpose is a bigger waste of money. 

I could go on and on about deck design but I think that's enough to give you the idea that it is the design itself that matters, not how you do a drawing. So how dig a deck are you actually talking about and how much height is there from the house door level to the final ground level you want to reach? What do you then want to be able to do on that deck? When I was visiting home owners and designing decks, I often found that when they said to me something like, 'a small deck with stairs', they either meant they just wanted a landing off their back door with stairs down to their garden (and therefore, no deck at all) OR given what they wanted to be able to do on their deck, they needed more deck than they could afford.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

First thing to do, is to get a copy of your local municipal code for decks. Then get inspiration from deck sites. Or hire a contractor who knows what they are doing. Allow $25-$50/sq.ft depending on materials.

https://plans.decksgo.com/ 
https://www.decks.com/ 

Google deck plans

Many books on decks. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=decks&i=stripbooks-intl-ship&ref=nb_sb_noss_2

Just completing first stage of our 850 sq.ft deck rebuild. Original cost $10k 30 years ago!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Stores like Home Depot and lumber yards have software to design decks and calculate the materials needed.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

OptsyEagle said:


> I just want to build a small deck with stairs and was wondering if there is any basic design software out there, that preferably is free and downloadable, that people have used before. I can draw it on paper but some computerized help could come in handy as well.


Sketchup is a great program for designing a deck. I did a small deck - really just a back porch, but sketchup was invaluable in finding any errors in my design.

If you use it properly, it's quite an investment in time learning it though. That's the only downside.

It's so nice to do all the different layers (i.e. joists, beams, top boards, posts, measurements, etc), then you can hide a layer and make adjustments. It's so great to spin the finished product around in 3D and zoom in and find any problems. I was able to buy exactly the materials I required once the design was done.

ltr


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

sags said:


> Stores like Home Depot and lumber yards have software to design decks and calculate the materials needed.


This is true. They will do it for you. But there is a lot on the web if you just take time to look. For example: https://www.homestratosphere.com/deck-design-software/ I used a free program (I forget just which one), but it was kind of clunky. Ended up with squared paper and a pencil. I wanted to get deck done, not spend time on my computer


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

If you know AutoCAD, Draftsight is free compatible.

If you don't know AutoCAD, don't bother, it's horrible.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks guys. Looks like the pencil and paper is probably the most efficient system. It is a big enough problem just getting the online programs from crashing the computer. The next issue is most want to fix ones deck to some stencil design. For instance 10'x12' with no way to make it 10' x 11' 9". Last but not least is the issue of figuring out how to do something, no matter how basic that something might be.

I figured this but the problem with the pencil and paper is that the most used tool sometimes becomes an eraser. It is like the difference between doing ones taxes on paper or using software. Even if it was only one line that you made an error on, once corrected, the pencil and paper method forces you to go back and recalculate about 10 or 15 difference lines. A computer tax program does it all immediately upon the change/correction. Designing a small deck is a little bit the same.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

If it's a small deck do you really need software? Depending on the size you're probably looking at 2"x8" joists 16" on center, that can be sketched in a couple minutes. You don't need a detailed plan...you just need to know the number and length of boards and how many joist hangers to buy.

The hardest part if it's your first deck will be accurately laying out the stringers for the stairs.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

agent99 said:


> This is true. They will do it for you. But there is a lot on the web if you just take time to look. For example: https://www.homestratosphere.com/deck-design-software/ I used a free program (I forget just which one), but it was kind of clunky. Ended up with squared paper and a pencil. I wanted to get deck done, not spend time on my computer


Well yes and no as far as 'do it for you'. A program may be able to handle the actual drawing of a deck YOU design or it may not. But no program can design for you. The kind of clunky you describe is indeed usually the case. The limitations of the program don't match up with the non-limitations of your mind. That's why as I said, a paper and pencil and yes 'squared' (graph paper) are better. You can draw any shape to scale. Try finding a program that will let you design an S curve into your deck for example. Or an angle other than 45 degrees. https://www.gardenlifelogcabins.co.uk/blog/garden-decking-ideas-ideal-winter-gardening-project/ https://www.decks.com/pictures/p/8

The only program that I know of that can draw pretty much anything you can design, is as MrMatt suggests, AutoCAD. Most programs won't even let you choose to lay boards on a 45 degree angle. 

Always consider the direction in which you lay your deckboards. The eye will follow the lines of the boards and your feet will follow your eyes. In other words, you can 'direct' traffic on your deck depending on how you lay boards, horizontal, vertical or on a diagonal. Don't believe me? Click on the picture in the second row down in the following link, titled ' Custom deck in Morganville' and see where your eye goes automatically. You look at the big white house to the left, where the lines have led your eye. Question is, is that where you wanted me to look? https://www.decks.com/pictures/p/16 No program will tell you that design basic of decking.

Also, contrary to what many people think, laying the boards on a diagonal does NOT use more lumber. The square footage of your deck is what decides how much lumber you need to cover it, no matter how you lay your boards. Nor does it matter which way you lay your joists. 

Planters and benches along an edge can also be used quite often in place of a railing. You don't need a railing if the 'drop' is 2 feet or less but even stepping backwards off a 2 foot drop and landing on the back of your head can do damage to you obviously. Having a planter or railing that you back into instead and that hits you above your knee level will stop that from happening. Again, a program cannot suggest you do that for safety.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> Also, contrary to what many people think, laying the boards on a diagonal does NOT use more lumber. The square footage of your deck is what decides how much lumber you need to cover it, no matter how you lay your boards. Nor does it matter which way you lay your joists.


While I agree that it takes the same square footage of boards to cover a deck regardless of whether they are laid straight or diagonal, it is more likely that there will be some extra waste generated when laying boards at a 45. That being said, a small amount of waste is a small price to pay for the look you want.



> Planters and benches along an edge can also be used quite often in place of a railing. You don't need a railing if the 'drop' is 2 feet or less but even stepping backwards off a 2 foot drop and landing on the back of your head can do damage to you obviously. Having a planter or railing that you back into instead and that hits you above your knee level will stop that from happening. Again, a program cannot suggest you do that for safety.


Planters and railings are a good way to add variety rather than just have a railing all around. Full width stairs are another option, especially if you want to maintain an unobstructed view.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Prairie Guy said:


> While I agree that it takes the same square footage of boards to cover a deck regardless of whether they are laid straight or diagonal, it is more likely that there will be some extra waste generated when laying boards at a 45. That being said, a small amount of waste is a small price to pay for the look you want.
> 
> 
> 
> Planters and railings are a good way to add variety rather than just have a railing all around. Full width stairs are another option, especially if you want to maintain an unobstructed view.


When you lay boards on the diagonal, the cut offs become usable as you near a corner and need smaller and smaller lengths. On an average size deck, you end up with very little waste at all. Usually just a small pile of little triangular pieces. More important is to realize that the longest board you can buy needs to fit the maximum diagonal length you will need. If not, you end up with 'splices' which should be avoided at all costs. 

The same is true if just laying the boards straight. ie. if you have a deck area of say 20 x 14 feet, then you should only buy 14 foot boards and lay them in line with the 14 foot side as you cannot buy boards 20 feet long and would need to 'splice' if laying in line with the 20 foot side. If you want to lay diagonally on the same size deck, you would need a 16 foot board and could then lay them diagonally from the 14 foot side if you see what I mean. A 14 foot board would be too short for the maximum diagonal. Splicing truly is a cardinal sin of deck design.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

I agree, paper and pencil may be sufficient for a simple deck. 
As others have noted, Sketchup and Sketchup Pro for blueline-type drawing output. Podium plugin does amazing 3d/lit renderings.

I'm helping with a to-the-studs reno these days based on design with the above.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> If it's a small deck do you really need software? Depending on the size you're probably looking at 2"x8" joists 16" on center, that can be sketched in a couple minutes. You don't need a detailed plan...you just need to know the number and length of boards and how many joist hangers to buy.
> 
> The hardest part if it's your first deck will be accurately laying out the stringers for the stairs.





Longtimeago said:


> Having a planter or railing that you back into instead and that hits you above your knee level will stop that from happening.





Prairie Guy said:


> Planters and railings are a good way to add variety rather than just have a railing all around. Full width stairs are another option, especially if you want to maintain an unobstructed view.


If you incorporate planters, make sure to design them adequately for the extra weight and drainage. Raise them off the deck for best effect. These are part of the design, not added later.

My son just replaced his deck with Duradack and expanded the stairway. It made a huge difference in esthetics.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> I agree, paper and pencil may be sufficient for a simple deck.


When I started my engineering career, ALL drawings were done with pencil and paper. The paper was tracing paper (or mylar or vellum) so that copies could be made on a blue-print machine. Not long before that, the drawings were made using pen and ink. Our final year design project had to be done in ink. Even today, some Architects still use pen and paper. 

Just saying that it doesn't matter what tools you use to prepare a design. Same input required. It's the thought that goes into the design that counts. Autocad itself doesn't have any smarts.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

OptsyEagle said:


> I just want to build a small deck with stairs and was wondering if there is any basic design software out there, that preferably is free and downloadable, that people have used before. I can draw it on paper but some computerized help could come in handy as well.


One of the problems with pencil and paper designs is that you end up with a lot of compromising and time wasted when you actually start doing the work. 

If software had been used to reveal all the design problems, a lot of grief could be saved. 

Simple things like not considering that a 2x4 and a 2x6 are actually widths of 3-1/2" and 5-1/2", while 2x8 and 2x10 are 7-1/4" and 9-1/4". This makes a huge difference, particularly on a large deck.

I know when I designed my back porch using sketchup, I entered the exact wood measurements, and it made it so much more accurate and easy to spot areas where I would have problems.

The time taken to use software to lay down a design is paid back during construction phase.

Attached is the simple side yard porch I built using a basic double beam on post design, with cantilever joists from a ledger bolted to the foundation.

The first pic shows the finished product, and the second shows the underlying foundation.

There were absolutely no surprises in the construction phase as they were all vetted in the software. 

















ltr


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Nice job on the deck LTR, although I might have blocked off the side of the steps as well.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Prairie Guy said:


> Nice job on the deck LTR, although I might have blocked off the side of the steps as well.


Good eye Prairie, I just hadn't put it on yet when I took the pic.

ltr


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

like_to_retire said:


> *If software had been used* to reveal all the design problems, a lot of grief could be saved.


Puzzled - You had design problems and grief because you didn't use software? 

A good carpenter could probably knock that landing together in an afternoon without a design  

Did you have to meet code for that landing? Usually you do and a design of some type has to be presented for approval. It does have to show how footings will be supported (below frost level here) as well as details of railings, posts etc. Hand sketches are usually OK but so are computer designs 

Our deck has two sections. One 37ftx14ft and one 14ftx14ft with interconnecting walkway and a ramp. Originally built by carpenters from our simple dimensional sketch. No problems. They do this sort of thing every day. 

After 30 years, I tore old deck apart and have rebuilt larger section with a few upgrades. Also using aluminum balusters - Snap'n lock type Almost complete. Hope to get it stained this coming week. Then move on to side deck.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

agent99 said:


> Puzzled - You had design problems and grief because you didn't use software?


Yeah, pencil and paper just didn't work for me. A lot more eraser than pencil. So much easier with software.



> A good carpenter could probably knock that landing together in an afternoon without a design


I'm not a good carpenter. 

ltr


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, pencil and paper just didn't work for me. A lot more eraser than pencil. So much easier with software.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you design on paper, design with centerlines or edges of support boards. Then draw in the board thickness as required.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

like_to_retire said:


> One of the problems with pencil and paper designs is that you end up with a lot of compromising and time wasted when you actually start doing the work.
> 
> If software had been used to reveal all the design problems, a lot of grief could be saved.
> 
> ...


Oh my, the only good thing I can say about your steps (it's not a porch, just a landing with steps) is that it is functional. It is in no way a good design.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

kcowan said:


> If you incorporate planters, make sure to design them adequately for the extra weight and drainage. Raise them off the deck for best effect. These are part of the design, not added later.
> 
> My son just replaced his deck with Duradack and expanded the stairway. It made a huge difference in esthetics.


The word 'esthetics' and the product Duradeck do not belong in the same room or in reference to the same deck. Duradeck is about as esthetically unappealing as you can get on a deck. The whole point of a WOODEN deck is to see the WOOD. Covering it with a rolled vinyl product that looks like roofing material is beyond words.

When I first moved to BC some years ago, I encountered this product and was horrified to see decks being covered in it. Fortunately, it has not made as much headway in the East as it has in the West. I'm sorry kcowan but I have to say, really, it sucks compared to a well designed deck with the wood being a key part of the design. It's only feature is less maintenance but it cannot compete in esthetics at all.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

LTA, you are assuming a nice 'wood' look which I agree has its place. 
But neither Optsy or Keith actually mentioned 'wood' as the look they were after.
Duradeck certainly has application, good esthetics and practicality in the right setting.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> LTA, you are assuming a nice 'wood' look which I agree has its place.
> But neither Optsy or Keith actually mentioned 'wood' as the look they were after.
> Duradeck certainly has application, good esthetics and practicality in the right setting.


I don't know how anyone can say Duradeck is esthetically pleasing. But then, people also buy plenty of things that are ugly and not at all esthetically pleasing. It's called having 'bad taste' vs. having 'good taste'. Let's face it, there are plenty of people who have bad taste in many things.

I think a fair comparison to Duradeck would be linoleum flooring in a kitchen. Functional yes, but hardly the best looking flooring is it. Duradeck is functional and yes, in some applications can make sense. For example an outdoor seating/eating area of a restaurant where having something you can just mop clean at the end of a day is important but if you want a nice looking deck area, it is bottom of the list for looks. I've designed restaurant decks and my go to for that application is composite deck boards. You maintain the looks while still having a deck you can just mop clean and requires very little maintenance. Composite is actually the best all round decking material but the problem is it is quite expensive. Where someone can afford it however, it would always be my first recommendation.

Strictly speaking the word we are talking about is actually 'aesthetics' with an 'a' and it is defined as, "a set of principles underlying and guiding the work of a particular artist or artistic movement. ie.
"the Cubist aesthetic"

Aesthetics is a philosophical term and by extension you can apply it to something like decking as easily as you can to many other things that are visual. You look at a deck and you say, 'that's a nice looking deck' or you say, 'that deck looks like crap', or, 'that deck looks like a definite DIY job that was never designed by a good designer.' It's no different than saying, 'that's a good looking house' or 'that dress looks good on her' etc. etc.

In decking their are principles of good design just as the definition of aesthetics requires. Here is a decent explanation of decking principles. https://www.decksgo.com/free-deck-design.html

What should be a simple principle to understand is that putting the equivalent of linoleum over plywood is not good deck design. So when you say OnlyMyOpinion that neither Optsy or Keith actually mentioned 'wood' as the look they were after, what you are saying to me is that maybe 'good deck design' is not the look they were after. I hope that is not the case in fact.

If purely functional and low cost were all that mattered, then when like_to_retire was in need of some steps from the back door, he could just have stacked up some old wooden pallets or some concrete building blocks. Obviously when someone doesn't do that, they are trying to have something that 'looks good'. Duradeck, never.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Take a look at all of the deck images on this page and imagine all of them as wooden decks. That's the look some guys would have sold you. 
It's important to make sure you know what kind of look (esthetics) *you* want to end up with. Otherwise you risk hiring some wannabe who will sell you what they want, and you're the one stuck with it. I've spoken with and dismissed more than a few of them over the years.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> Oh my, the only good thing I can say about your steps (it's not a porch, just a landing with steps) is that it is functional. It is in no way a good design.



beauty is in the eye of the beholder though

to my eye, this (below) is a graceful, beautifully executed small back porch. The joist exposure shows excellent design imho.

of course i'm no judge & me i would not be able to even build a birdhouse. But i have seen plenty of so-called professional-built decks that were cruder & sloppier than this minimalist little piece of alright.

the only detail i wonder about is the foundation. Here in quebec we're accustomed to building wooden porch & deck structures on top of concrete bases/supports, which themselves are elevated at least 5-8 centimetres above earth level, in order to protect the wood from rotting prematurely.

under posts we will usually install sonotubes. I had to learn this the hard way. Have a sweet wedding-cake victorian verandah across the front of the house but when it was renovated the carpenter cut the tops of the sonotubes at ground level instead of leaving them higher. He attached proper supporting posts but of course soil & plant debris soon moved in. I learned my lesson.





like_to_retire said:


> Attached is the simple side yard porch I built using a basic double beam on post design, with cantilever joists from a ledger bolted to the foundation.
> 
> The first pic shows the finished product, and the second shows the underlying foundation.
> 
> ...


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

humble_pie said:


> the only detail i wonder about is the foundation. Here in quebec we're accustomed to building wooden porch & deck structures on top of concrete bases/supports, which themselves are elevated at least 5-8 centimetres above earth level, in order to protect the wood from rotting prematurely.
> 
> under posts we will usually install sonotubes. I had to learn this the hard way. Have a sweet wedding-cake victorian verandah across the front of the house but when it was renovated the carpenter cut the tops of the sonotubes at ground level instead of leaving them higher. He attached proper supporting posts but of course soil & plant debris soon moved in. I learned my lesson.


Yeah, since this "landing" is above asphalt, I only extended the sono-tubes about 2" higher than the asphalt. Nothing ever gets in that area because of the skirt. I dug the cement support posts to 4 feet deep and reinforced with rebar. A metal u-bracket is mounted into each cement support to hold the 4x4.

ltr


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Take a look at all of the deck images on this page and imagine all of them as wooden decks. That's the look some guys would have sold you.
> It's important to make sure you know what kind of look (esthetics) *you* want to end up with. Otherwise you risk hiring some wannabe who will sell you what they want, and you're the one stuck with it. I've spoken with and dismissed more than a few of them over the years.


Your intent with your first sentence is not clear to me OnlyMyOpinion. Are you saying someone wold sell you a wooden deck rather than a Duradeck and that would be bad? Or are you saying the Duradeck photos do not look as good as a wooden deck would and it is the Duradeck someone would try to sell you? It's not clear to me which one you are saying you would favour.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> beauty is in the eye of the beholder though
> 
> to my eye, this (below) is a graceful, beautifully executed small back porch. The joist exposure shows excellent design imho.
> 
> ...


The quality of the construction is not the question humble_pie. It is the aesthetics of the finished product I am talking about. Yes, it looks well built but it that doesn't make it aesthetically pleasing.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

If he could move it to my place and perhaps raise it a foot or so, I would take it in a heart beat. It looks good to me.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Your intent with your first sentence is not clear to me OnlyMyOpinion. Are you saying someone wold sell you a wooden deck rather than a Duradeck and that would be bad? Or are you saying the Duradeck photos do not look as good as a wooden deck would and it is the Duradeck someone would try to sell you? It's not clear to me which one you are saying you would favour.


LTA, I was suggesting that not all decks are suited to being built with an exposed 'wood' look. You may or may not agree with me. I was also pointing out that a person should decide on the look they want and not be sold something different. This is particularly the case when you are having someone else do the install or reno. 
Of course there are some people who are not very particular or knowledgeable about what they want who will be quite happy with whatever is installed.

Added: for example we tore a raised wooden deck off the front of our place a number of years ago and replaced it with a ground level interlocking brick patio with an aluminum post / frosted glass screen. Larger area, no maintenance, better privacy, modern look that ties into raised flower beds, etc. People have noted how much better it looks, but you might not agree.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> The quality of the construction is not the question humble_pie. It is the aesthetics of the finished product I am talking about. Yes, it looks well built but it that doesn't make it aesthetically pleasing.




i was indeed talking about the indisputable aesthetic appeal of that well-designed back door number. It may be small, but it's elegant.

here is what i said, in praise of its aesthetic appeal:

_"graceful"

"beautifully executed"

"excellent design"

"minimalist little piece of alright"_


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

_Added: for example we tore a raised wooden deck off the front of our place a number of years ago and replaced it with a ground level interlocking brick patio with an aluminum post / frosted glass screen. Larger area, no maintenance, better privacy, modern look that ties into raised flower beds, etc. People have noted how much better it looks, but you might not agree._

I think that would look much better than any deck I could imagine.

In one of our homes, we put in a huge two tier deck with a latticed privacy fence surrounding a big swimming pool area and after awhile you get tired of looking at that expanse of wood.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

For anyone thinking about a new deck, this link describes various options available for deck materials.

https://www.decksgo.com/deck-materi...824dd7ad907e7680f8914173f9191b1c0223e68310bb1

We replaced our 30 yr cedar with pressure treated. If it lasts for 30 years, that will be more than long enough for us! 
The original cedar had deteriorated while the underlying pressure treated was still as good as new after 30 years. 

We found that the quality of PT deck boards at the big box stores was poor. You really need to pick them out. But we needed over a hundred and had to have Lowes choose and deliver. We took some back and should have returned even more.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> i was indeed talking about the indisputable aesthetic appeal of that well-designed back door number. It may be small, but it's elegant.
> 
> here is what i said, in praise of its aesthetic appeal:
> 
> ...


Yes, you did and you are entitled to your opinion. Unfortunately, while you like it, it does not conform to principles of deck design that it would need to to be aesthetically pleasing as a DECK. As I wrote earlier: In decking their are principles of good design just as the definition of aesthetics requires. Here is a decent explanation of decking principles. https://www.decksgo.com/free-deck-design.html

It's a landing and a staircase, it isn't a deck at all. It's a well build landing without a doubt but that does not make it aesthetically pleasing even as a landing. Here is a back door deck that is aesthetically pleasing. 
https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/253186810276207444/

When it comes to 'landings', the design principles are not the same as for a deck. If I were building a landing in that location (looks like a side door leading out onto an asphalt driveway, for starters, I woudn't even be building in wood. Wood simply doesn't 'fit' aesthetically given the location and purpose. It should in fact be a stone or brick landing to 'fit' in aesthetically. Something like some of these: https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/250372060507432452/

If we can't even agree on what a 'deck' is vs. a 'landing' and that to be aesthetically pleasing the principles of good design differ between the two, then many people will continue to think that what they believe is aesthetically pleasing as a landing or a deck is, when in fact it is not so by definition of the word 'aesthetics'. But, just as some people have no dress sense and no doubt think the clothing they wear looks great, while clothing designers cringe when they see them, some people will continue to think their landing looks great. Tacking a wooden landing that leads to an asphalt driveway, onto the side of a brick house is NOT aesthetically pleasing, trust me.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> _Added: for example we tore a raised wooden deck off the front of our place a number of years ago and replaced it with a ground level interlocking brick patio with an aluminum post / frosted glass screen. Larger area, no maintenance, better privacy, modern look that ties into raised flower beds, etc. People have noted how much better it looks, but you might not agree._
> 
> I think that would look much better than any deck I could imagine.
> 
> In one of our homes, we put in a huge two tier deck with a latticed privacy fence surrounding a big swimming pool area and after awhile you get tired of looking at that expanse of wood.


First, you cannot compare a patio to a deck any more than you could compare a deck to a grass lawn. Each differs, it's apples and oranges. I have no problem with a nice patio where appropriate. But if we are going to start with the premise of someone who has decided to build a deck, we can't then go off onto patios. A patio will look better than a deck in the right setting. A deck will look better than a patio in the right setting. Apples and oranges.

As for your deck with a latticed privacy fence sags and getting tired of looking at it, what were you looking at? I suspect it was the fence, not the deck. I would never surround a pool with a latticed privacy fence. I would never use lattice with a deck for anything. There are a lot of assumptions people make about deck design that come from what they see around them, not from good design. Most decks in N. America are in fact poorly designed. You see 99 poorly designed decks and assume some 'norms', like the use of lattice which I see as a total no no. When I see raised decks for example with lattice used to close them in below, I see bad design. While I suspect most people simply see them as 'normal.' 

My preferred compulsory fence around a pool is either simple chain link or wood but with the entire fence hidden behind shrubs, etc. You see no 'fence' at all. It's all flowers, shrubs and trees. It is also at a decent distance from the pool. Most pools in my opinion are located in an area that is too small and as a result are not aesthetically pleasing. Want to have a pool, have an area of your property that is at least say a quarter acres in size, fence that area and hide the fence behind plantings. Now you have some of these:
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...jAhWCPM0KHVQvBWIQsAR6BAgHEAE&biw=1366&bih=657

It's the size of the area and the VISIBILITY of the fence that is the problem. Result, bad aesthetics in pool design.


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