# Whatever happened to Mukhang Pera?



## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

Haven't heard from him/her for awhile?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

His last post was only 12 days ago.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Rumour has it that he has been busy advising Mr. Morneau on the new Federal Budget. Rumour also has it that since the beginning of the CMF, municipal, provincial and federal governments have been turning to the knowledgeable members of the forum for advice in all kinds of things.

But that's just a rumour. I can neither confirm nor deny the veracity of the information.


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> Rumour has it that he has been busy advising Mr. Morneau on the new Federal Budget.


Would that be advising in the capacity of advis*e*r or advis*o*r?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

GreatLaker said:


> Would that be advising in the capacity of advis*e*r or advis*o*r?


It would be in the capacity of a Professional Consult*a*nt. There is no adviser or advisor question to answer. No one worth their fee refers to themselves as an advisor or adviser, we are Professional Consultants, it says so on our business cards. 

Really GreatLaker, you need to get with the program. A Professional Engineer does not refer to him or herself as a technician. Same story with a Professional Consultant vs. a adviser/advisor. :cocksure:


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

Maybe he decided to take a little vacay. Weather has been a little off the last while out west. Sure been nice this week though.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

I am not sure why an engineer has to say 'professional' engineer.
Does anyone bill themselves as an 'amateur' engineer, consultant or what ever?
My Doctor does not call herself a professional doctor.
Isn't the title ' Engineer' or 'consultant' enough.


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## yyz (Aug 11, 2013)

Well a doctor can be a part of a practice. Myself I prefer one that's done practicing and is serious about it.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Pretty sure I saw him the other day, up in the top of a giant redwood, taking a deposition.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

twa2w said:


> I am not sure why an engineer has to say 'professional' engineer.
> Does anyone bill themselves as an 'amateur' engineer, consultant or what ever?
> My Doctor does not call herself a professional doctor.
> Isn't the title ' Engineer' or 'consultant' enough.


Doctors often put something to indicate their profession. There is a big difference between a Medical Doctor, a Dentist and a Dr of Roman History. (Even though they all might know more latin than any sane person would need)

Engineering is Provincially regulated. In Ontario you need to be an P.Eng. to call yourself an Engineer, but this is routinely violated.

Other jurisdictions are different (and it is P.E. in the US)


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

twa2w said:


> Isn't the title ' Engineer' or 'consultant' enough.


No the term engineer was already in use for everything from train drivers to bathroom cleaners. In doctors, the only abuses are PhDs who are not necessarily qualified to do anything.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

kcowan said:


> No the term engineer was already in use for everything from train drivers to bathroom cleaners. In doctors, the only abuses are PhDs who are not necessarily qualified to do anything.


I disagree. First, PhDs are entitled to use the term “doctor”. As in “I’m a doctor, just not the kind that will do you any good”. 

Second, a whole raft of healthcare professionals use the term “doctor” these days: optometrists, dentists, chiropractors, etc. I presume this is done with the support of their professional licensing bodies. The word “doctor” comes from the Latin verb “docere”, meaning to instruct, teach or point out. Therefore, it can be applied in any of these situations. 

Trust me, I’m a doctor!*

* A medical doctor, with a PhD, and I point things out!


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

twa2w said:


> I am not sure why an engineer has to say 'professional' engineer.
> Does anyone bill themselves as an 'amateur' engineer, consultant or what ever?
> My Doctor does not call herself a professional doctor.
> Isn't the title ' Engineer' or 'consultant' enough.


A professional engineer is registered in the province they do business and works in that specific field.
You could have an engineer, who works in a different field.
You could have an engineer-in -training (EIT) who is trained properly, but does not have the experience to be a professional yet.
You could have an engineer, who used to be a professional, but is now retired.

Additionally, a professional engineer has to be registered in that province to do that specific work, AND their employer also has to have a permit to practice engineering in that province.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ I like the fact that we're all Consultants here ... giving advice for free. :biggrin: 

Of course, this is off topic so the search for MP continues....


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm an engineer but not a Professional Engineer. I have a degree in engineering, and my job title contains Engineer, but as I don't have a P.Eng and am not accredited/licensed as a true engineer, I am not a Professional Engineer (P.Eng).

Actually it kind of bothers me, and I don't like how my coworkers also refer to themselves as "engineers" even though they never studied any kind of engineering and don't have degrees in engineering.

I've pushed my employer to refer to me as a Senior Research Scientist so that we don't corrupt the term engineer but these days it's popular for everyone to be an engineer.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The degree to which someone might differentiate between an Engineer and Professional engineer and object to someone using the term engineer to refer to themselves, has a lot to do with where they come from in my opinion. Come from in the sense of actual location in the world and also in the sense of their educational and career background. 

For example, in the UK, a whole raft of people refer to themselves as 'engineers'. Construction industry workers or maybe a machinist in a factory as examples. They really use the term engineer, very loosely. To someone like me, hearing that is laughable. They have no degree in any kind of Engineering, ie. civil, mechanical, chemical and electrical are the basic 4 degrees that qualify as far as I am concerned. Nowadays of course many derivatives have been added to list of degrees you can get from a University, like aerospace engineer or computer science engineer etc. 

Take a look at this list and you will see the title 'engineer' being used for someone who repairs electric motors or fixes industrial manufacturing machines for example.
https://www.reed.co.uk/jobs/engineering-jobs
They aren't in fact engineers, they are simply technicians or even simply a mechanically inclined handy-man if I was being really nasty. I've met quite a few when I was living in the UK who called themselves engineers and I just laughed. They play very fast and loose with that title.

A P. Eng. (Professional Engineer) in Canada on the other hand has a degree in Engineering and has gone on to work for a company entitled to practice engineering in that province as nobleeaa writes. After 2 years (in Ontario for example) that person can then apply to be accredited as a P. Eng. It does seem though that as james4beach says, here in Canada, the term engineer is becoming pretty abused as well. But even then, I don't think you will find many daring to refer to themselves as a P. Eng. or Professional Engineer. That would be a step too far indeed.

I once cut a fishhook from a guy's thumb. I guess that makes me a surgeon.
I write comments here and they are read by the public. I guess that makes me a published author.
Anyone who is not a P. Eng. and refers to themselves as an 'engineer' is in my books in the same league. Lying.

A Professional Consultant on the other hand is not a regulated field such as exists with P. Eng. in Engineering. A Professional Consultant and a Consultant are interchangeable terms in that regard. But going back to adviser vs advisor, no self-respecting Consultant whether they called themselves just a Consultant or Professional Consultant, would ever refer to themselves in regards to 'job title' as an advisor or adviser. A Professional Consultant does far more than just give advice. The advice is the easy part. Determining the real problem is where the experience and knowledge base of a Professional comes in. Here is a simple but reasonable description.
https://work.chron.com/professional-consultant-9684.html

So, what's in a title some are asking. Well, a whole lot if you are one of those who has actually EARNED the right to use the title. I spent 25 years first in my education, then working in different industries, then on additional education before finally in my last few years of working for a living, feeling I had earned to the right to use the title Professional Consultant and provide services to companies who wanted the advice of a 'professional'. I would not take kindly to being compared to a 'Financial Advisor/er' who tells you where to park your RRSP money.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> I'm an engineer but not a Professional Engineer. I have a degree in engineering, and my job title contains Engineer, but as I don't have a P.Eng and am not accredited/licensed as a true engineer, I am not a Professional Engineer (P.Eng).
> 
> Actually it kind of bothers me, and I don't like how my coworkers also refer to themselves as "engineers" even though they never studied any kind of engineering and don't have degrees in engineering.
> 
> I've pushed my employer to refer to me as a Senior Research Scientist so that we don't corrupt the term engineer but these days it's popular for everyone to be an engineer.


Many people in companies do not understand the importance and PERCEPTION that a title conveys james4beach. One company I worked with hired me as a salesperson and gave me business cards with the title Technical Representative on them. Their thinking was that their salespeople sold things by solving the customer's technical problem for which the company's products could provide a solution. There is some logic in that. But I argued that in fact what happened when I or any other salesperson called on a potential customer was that it could give the PERCEPTION that we were trying to hide what we were there to do, hopefully SELL something. I finally convinced them to go with a compromise and all salespeople's business cards were changed to read, Technical Sales Representative. A much more HONEST title. Technically trained to figure out the problem and then expected to sell a product that solved the problem. 

That company was very heavily Engineering dominated with all top management coming from an Engineering background. They didn't like the sound of the word 'Sales' at all. No surprise there, many people don't. So they were in fact trying to HIDE what they saw negatively but weren't smart enough to understand that their customers weren't that stupid as to believe the salesperson wasn't there to sell something if they could and that leaving sales off their business cards was anything other than a pathetic attempt to avoid saying so.

Misuse of a title can be damaging rather than giving the more positive impression expected. Titles can matter psychologically in what they convey as much as what they may convey in any other way. For example, PhD to me immediately conveys an image of someone whose feet do not touch the ground. In other words, they live in a very tiny, confined world of their own and often have little or no understanding of reality, practicality and the 'real' world around them.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

If someone calls them selves an engineer I look for the ring...no ring no engineer.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eder said:


> If someone calls them selves an engineer I look for the ring...no ring no engineer.


Ok well then I guess I'm an engineer.


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## hboy54 (Sep 16, 2016)

Eder said:


> If someone calls them selves an engineer I look for the ring...no ring no engineer.


The ring is a Canada only thing, obtained upon paying $5 (price from about 27 years ago) after getting a B. Eng. degree. 

In conversation, I always say I have an engineering degree, but am not a professional engineer.

My father was a P. Eng. but did not have an engineering degree, but rather a Ph.D. in physics.


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## PDLD (Jan 3, 2014)

hboy54 said:


> The ring is a Canada only thing, obtained upon paying $5 (price from about 27 years ago) after getting a B. Eng. degree.
> 
> In conversation, I always say I have an engineering degree, but am not a professional engineer.
> 
> My father was a P. Eng. but did not have an engineering degree, but rather a Ph.D. in physics.


Actually, it isn't unique to Canada (I always thought it was too). I've met at least 1 or 2 American engineering school graduates who wore one. Worn on the pinkie finger, and very similar to my own 37 year old ring.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Oddly enough, just "Engineer" used on it's own implies "Professional Engineer", at least among professional engineers in Canada.

If one is in some other career that is commonly referred to as some engineering field, then they better be calling themselves a "Power engineer" or "train engineer" or whatever other job-titles there are. If they are just calling themselves "engineer" without any adjective, they could get in trouble.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I know non-engineers who just made rings out of old nuts that they drilled out. The ring is as meaningless as anything else, they can’t prevent anyone from wearing one.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

The ring is a status symbol...very embarrassed for any that would wear one without earning it.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

The ones I knew did it because the egos of the engineers went too far, so everyone in the companies wore one so they weren’t looked down upon. 

To me, status is earned through deeds not jewelry. If you squeaked through school by cheating and poor grades, no ring would make me respect you. You can generally tell who earns respect...I know plenty I do respect who don’t wear rings. Status symbols (not just for engineers) are usually required by people who lack the self confidence or ability.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Wearing a fake iron ring (that one didn't earn legitimately) is a kind of fraud, in my opinion.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

“Sometimes A ring is just a ring”

- Freud.


“No one really cares what you think”

- life.


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

Now that Mukhang Pera has resolved the adviser/advisor dilemma and set all the associated class action lawsuits in motion, I heard that he needed a new challenge so he has been hired as a consultant by all the professional engineering associations across Canada to define who can officially use the term "Engineer" and who can wear the official iron ring. 

I am an Enguneer
I are a Enginear
I is an Enganeer
I'm good at math


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

and then there are all the P. Eng. people who have long since ceased doing any engineering. When I retired, the APEO tried to get me to continue to pay for "retired" status.

And many of my classmates were employed at Ontario Hydro doing technicians jobs. I am confident that MP can clarify this for us.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

GreatLaker said:


> Now that Mukhang Pera has resolved the adviser/advisor dilemma and set all the associated class action lawsuits in motion, I heard that he needed a new challenge so he has been hired as a consultant by all the professional engineering associations across Canada to define who can officially use the term "Engineer" and who can wear the official iron ring.
> 
> I am an Enguneer
> I are a Enginear
> ...


 ... real good one! :encouragement:


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Maybe he’s bottling his secret tenants sauce and setting up a distribution network...


Or maybe his keyboard broke from extensive use.


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

Beaver101 said:


> ... real good one! :encouragement:


And then there is the confusion among consultant / consultent / consultont.

None of which should be confused with consoltant, which is a contract human resources position with that consoles employees while offering outplacement services after their job has been terminated.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

I think the "Ph" in Ph.D. is short for Philosophy. 

http://www.neuwritewest.org/blog/2014/6/23/a-brief-history-of-the-phd


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Then there is the old joke: 'A weak ago I culdn't spell Injerneer, now I are one.'

I always find that joke a bit of a possible truism in that I used to work with a P. Eng. who could not in fact spell very well or string a coherent sentence together in writing. 

As for the ring, I have no right to wear one but I do have the right to wear an earring in my left ear. I don't wear one since I'm of a generation that considers a man wearing an earring as somewhat suspect. And no, you don't earn the right to wear one by being on a cruise ship. You EARN one by rounding Cape Horn on a boat with sails and being a working member of the crew.

I heard another rumour that MP is off trying to earn his earring. I guess no one told him that you can't earn one on your 'stinkpot' (true sailor's name for those in power boats vs. sail boats).


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Now that I think about it, Sags has been queit a while now too...maybe they ran off together.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Contrary to some posts above, in Canada it is not necessary to have a degree in engineering to be a ' professional' engineer and hold the p.eng designation. At least in some provinces. Nor is it necessary for a firm to be registered to employ engineers as engineers, at least in some provinces.
This may be different if they are consulting engineers or are holding out as an engineering practice. 
A young fellow I know quite well works for a financial firm as an EIT, is supervised by an engineer, but the firm is not registered as an engineering firm in any way.
This is the case in both Aberta and BC. Pretty sure Morgan Stanley and Microsoft are not registered with either province as engineering firms.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

Pluto said:


> I think the "Ph" in Ph.D. is short for Philosophy.
> 
> http://www.neuwritewest.org/blog/2014/6/23/a-brief-history-of-the-phd


BS: We all know what that means.
MS: More of the Same.
PhD: Piled Higher and Deeper.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

^
Good one.


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