# Wheel Lock Keys



## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

It seems to me that most cars sold have the wheel lock keys somewhere with the spare tire and jack. One could put it in the glove box or central console too. But these are limited and well-known locations. Wouldn't a wheel thief be willing to open the trunk (using a crow bar or through the window) and get the key to take the wheels? Is the lock itself enough of a deterrent? Or do you have a better hiding place for the key?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

If you're worried about it I'm sure you could find a good hiding place for it. BTW, those locking lug nuts can be defeated fairly easily so if a thief really wants your tires they'll be gone.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

The last couple of cars I bought, I demanded that the dealer take the locking lug nuts off and put normal ones. I think they're a waste of time, much more likely to cause a great inconvenience than to prevent one. Noone around here steals wheels -- that's something that happened in 1974 when "mags" were valuable. These days, who the hell would want a stock set of wheels from an F150 that didn't already have a perfectly good set?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Topo, are you worried you'll find your car looking like this?


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

james4beach said:


> Topo, are you worried you'll find your car looking like this?


Funny! I guess that is why every car I've bought (except for one) has the locks. Are they after the tires or the wheels? Maybe some fancy wheels?

I agree with the above posts that it is not very important nor effective, so one might as well keep the key handy for convenience.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Topo said:


> Funny! I guess that is why every car I've bought (except for one) has the locks. Are they after the tires or the wheels? Maybe some fancy wheels?


Like filling your tires with nitrogen. Good sales pitch I guess



Topo said:


> I agree with the above posts that it is not very important nor effective, so one might as well keep the key handy for convenience.


What good is a spare tire if you lock the wheels and leave the key at home?


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

m3s said:


> What good is a spare tire if you lock the wheels and leave the key at home?


Handy as in the glove box.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

My wife and I decided on a new car in 2015. An brand new entry level with steel wheels and plastic hub caps. I came down with a bad cold and my wife decided to go back to the dealership to finalize the purchase. I had done some research and found out the dealers cost. I think we decided to add $500 to that and make that our offer. My wife came back, happy as ever, exclaiming she got the price we wanted.

I took a look at the sales receipt and there was a fee.....I think it was $100 for the wheel locks and a fee of $500 for window etching (a form of theft identification). we picked up the phone and demanded a refund. They quickly obliged.

i do recall wheel thefts in the 1990s in my neighbourhood, they are a complete waste of money on steel wheels though.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Timely post in that the car we just bought came with the locking nuts. I too am asking myself are they worth using or not. I think I'll see what my mechanic thinks. We certainly don't live in a high crime area. The special wrench socket is currently kept beside the spare tire. It isn't difficult to access at all but also isn't difficult to find at all which leads me to Topo's question of what's the point if a thief can as easily access it as I can.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

gardner said:


> The last couple of cars I bought, I demanded that the dealer take the locking lug nuts off and put normal ones. I think they're a waste of time, much more likely to cause a great inconvenience than to prevent one. Noone around here steals wheels -- that's something that happened in 1974 when "mags" were valuable. These days, who the hell would want a stock set of wheels from an F150 that didn't already have a perfectly good set?


I stopped using mine, too. They are kind of pointless. If someone wants your wheels, the locking nuts aren't going to be that much of a deterrent. And if you have the other equipment you need for it, like jacks, etc. it's not hard to have a collection of the fairly small number of keys.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Money172375 said:


> I took a look at the sales receipt and there was a fee.....I think it was $100 for the wheel locks and a fee of $500 for window etching (a form of theft identification). we picked up the phone and demanded a refund. They quickly obliged.


No $200 for nitrogen filled tires and green caps??



andrewf said:


> I stopped using mine, too. They are kind of pointless. If someone wants your wheels, the locking nuts aren't going to be that much of a deterrent.


Youtube has many simple ways to defeat them. Looks easier to defeat them then to buy/carry multiple keys


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I doubt I would ever choose to buy them but when they come with the car anyway, I see no inconvenience in just using them. I think I will just leave them on as they are already there. Anyone have any practical reason for suggesting removing them rather than the question of is there any point to putting them on?

On a side note of some similarity, I always chuckle when people talk about putting locks on their luggage to deter thieves. They will of course deter some casual opportunist thieves but watch this video showing how easily they can be defeated.





Never pack anything you aren't willing to lose in a suitcase with a zipper is the lesson to learn.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> I doubt I would ever choose to buy them but when they come with the car anyway, I see no inconvenience in just using them. I think I will just leave them on as they are already there. Anyone have any practical reason for suggesting removing them rather than the question of is there any point to putting them on?
> 
> On a side note of some similarity, I always chuckle when people talk about putting locks on their luggage to deter thieves. They will of course deter some casual opportunist thieves but watch this video showing how easily they can be defeated.
> 
> ...


There is the risk of misplacing the special key, rare as it might be.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> There is the risk of misplacing the special key, rare as it might be.


They can get stripped much easier than regular lug nuts if one doesn't apply enough forward pressure.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> There is the risk of misplacing the special key, rare as it might be.


Our 2019 Subaru is in isolation during pandemic (no insurance). I can't take it to dealer for the service it is supposed to have every 6 months regardless of km driven (another peeve!)
I should do an oil change and rotate the tires. But then I will have to find that key. Never used it and no idea where it is in car!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

If it is sitting I'd be more worried about the battery than anything. I plugged mine into a 2amp trickle charger. I get slightly more tire wear up front from the steering and weight but AWD wears mostly even. I wouldn't worry about rotating tires every 6 months

Besides oil/oil filter at 2 years I'd look at air filter, cabin air filter (glove box) brake fluid. The air filters are easy to buy on amazon etc and change yourself because they are famously overpriced at dealer. Brake fluid you prob want to pay for but not really critical (most neglect it)


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I naturally rotate my wheels by swapping summer and winter.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I would worry more about my catalytic converter. Easy, fast, to boost. Can be done in minutes. Lightweight, easy to handle, takes up little room and has value to those who know where and how to dispose of it.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

cainvest said:


> They can get stripped much easier than regular lug nuts if one doesn't apply enough forward pressure.


And in areas where there is winter and road salt, the chances of corrosion freezing the lug nuts or lug bolts in place is considerable. The special key may not be able to apply enough torque to a corroded fastener to break it free. I used to have to put a 3 foot pipe on the lug wrench to get them free sometimes, before I started using anti-seize.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Careful with anti-seize on the lugs though it affects the torque. I put it between the hub and wheel and try to wipe it off the lugs. Even a tiny bit makes the lugs come off so easily


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

m3s said:


> Careful with anti-seize on the lugs though it affects the torque. I put it between the hub and wheel and try to wipe it off the lugs. Even a tiny bit makes the lugs come off so easily


Yup, anti-seize isn't meant for lug nuts/studs. Wire brush clean them and only apply anti-seize on the hub centric ring.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

Good to see I am not missing anything.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

My mom lost the lock key to remove the lug nuts a few different shops were going to charge her well over 100 dollars per a wheel. though eventually found a shop that took all 4 off for $10. The first thing I do is put on regular lug nuts to save money & inconvenience if they are lost. My bet in most areas in Canada more money is spent taking off the locking lug nuts then is spent on replacing tires & rims that are stolen.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

andrewf said:


> I naturally rotate my wheels by swapping summer and winter.


I swap winter and summer but even with AWD front tires will wear faster than the rear tires. I mark them and do the rotation when they go back on the next season.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I do 'random rotation'. No significant difference in wear.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

m3s said:


> If it is sitting I'd be more worried about the battery than anything. I plugged mine into a 2amp trickle charger. I get slightly more tire wear up front from the steering and weight but AWD wears mostly even. I wouldn't worry about rotating tires every 6 months
> 
> Besides oil/oil filter at 2 years I'd look at air filter, cabin air filter (glove box) brake fluid. The air filters are easy to buy on amazon etc and change yourself because they are famously overpriced at dealer. Brake fluid you prob want to pay for but not really critical (most neglect it)


The Subaru, like a lot of newer cars has a minimal battery to save weight. It runs down quite quickly because of the computer draw. When not in use, it is always on a smart charger (A C-TEk type - not a low cost trickle/maintenance charger that can damage a battery). My wife's Mercedes battery runs down too, but it lasts a long time without a charger.(It is also being stored)

Tires will get rotated eventually. Dealer service interval is 30k km and we are a long way from that! No harm in rotating earlier though. 

Oil/Filter schedule is every 10k km or 6 months whichever comes first. We have done 11k km in 18 months almost all on highway. Seems crazy to change oil/filter every 6 months if car doesn't get driven many km. Mercedes use 15k km or 1 year. I dunno, maybe these Japanese engines need extra care 

Re those cabin air filters. I change them once in a while on my wife's car - They always look clean when removed. They are cheap enough. The charcoal filters are more expensive. I actually changed both this Spring, but mainly because I was in under dash anyway, for work on the blower. (Those ones are not in the glove box area)


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

m3s said:


> Careful with anti-seize on the lugs though it affects the torque. I put it between the hub and wheel and try to wipe it off the lugs. Even a tiny bit makes the lugs come off so easily


Correct! Antiseize or even oil should not be used on lugs or studs. They should just be cleaned. I usually just use a rag, maybe with a little mineral spirits on it. If you don't do this, you can over-torque the studs. And you should be using a torque wrench set to the proper torque when tightening in a cross pattern. Otherwise, you can distort your brake disks. My older cars use 80-85 ft.lb. Haven't checked the Subaru spec yet!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

agent99 said:


> Mercedes use 15k km or 1 year. I dunno, maybe these Japanese engines need extra care


I think 1 year is more than enough especially w synthetic oil. That's what I go with during low mileage years. The km rule really depends city/highway/racing etc

I googled new Subaru battery to see if they switched to lithium and came across a Class Action Lawsuit for battery drain on the new Outback and Ascent


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

In rotating tires, be cognizant that some tires are directional.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> There is the risk of misplacing the special key, rare as it might be.


I suppose although I tend to be more towards the 'everything in its place' side of the scale than the 'now where did I put my car keys, glasses, etc. side that some scatter brains seem to fall on.

Misplacing it is not something I would consider very likely to happen.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> Misplacing it is not something I would consider very likely to happen.


Maybe not, but will your sister and brother in law know where to find it when they borrow your car to go visit friends? Does your teenage daughter know where it is to show the nice family that stops to help her out at the roadside after a flat?

In my view, the probability it could cause trouble is significant, while the probability it would prevent trouble is vanishingly small.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

gardner said:


> Maybe not, but will your sister and brother in law know where to find it when they borrow your car to go visit friends? Does your teenage daughter know where it is to show the nice family that stops to help her out at the roadside after a flat?
> 
> In my view, the probability it could cause trouble is significant, while the probability it would prevent trouble is vanishingly small.


Well, let's say you borrow it gardner and have a flat, where would you look for it after you realized it was required? Come on, I bet you will think of two places to look as most likely, the glove compartment and with the spare tire. If you do, you will find it quite easily. It is right beside the spare tire in plain view. 

I would say the probability of it causing trouble is no more likely than the probability it will prevent trouble. I would agree if someone said, both are not really significant. If they were not on the car when I bought it, I would not buy them but if they were on the car when I bought it, I would not get rid of them.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

m3s said:


> I think 1 year is more than enough especially w synthetic oil. That's what I go with during low mileage years. The km rule really depends city/highway/racing etc
> 
> I googled new Subaru battery to see if they switched to lithium and came across a Class Action Lawsuit for battery drain on the new Outback and Ascent


The km rule is not the problem . With us, it is the every 6 month service required to maintain the warranty. We are due for our 3rd service in 18 months and this time they want to do teh one that would normally be done at 30k km, when we have only done 11k km. 

Our at time brand new Outback battery ran down after sitting for about 10 days, starting once then loading car with tailgate/doors open for an hour or two. Car would not start. Had to charge overnight before heading South in morning. Was more careful from then on. Battery on maintenance when stored. Otherwise run car enough to charge battery. I could see a problem for owners who take a vacation and leave car at airport or wherever for 2 or 3 weeks. We had that problem once with the Mercedes.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

The Law :

A few months ago a neighbour's garage was broken into and tools were stolen.
I watched the police investigate and go door to door asking for info.

I think that when somebody gets arrested for a property crime, they should offer complete immunity to the criminal if only they would provide the name of the person buying the stolen merchandise.

I believe that if we began to criminally charge the purchaser of stolen property, and not the criminal property crime would lessen quite a bit.

Perhaps not seeking to find who purchased the stolen property is because the purchaser is most likely a property taxpayer and thus paying the police salaries.

It is kind of like John's and Prostitutes.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

agent99 said:


> The km rule is not the problem . With us, it is the every 6 month service required to maintain the warranty. We are due for our 3rd service in 18 months and this time they want to do teh one that would normally be done at 30k km, when we have only done 11k km.


Ouch, Subie is really pushing the dealer service ... 6 months seems a little unreasonable.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

agent99 said:


> The km rule is not the problem . With us, it is the every 6 month service required to maintain the warranty. We are due for our 3rd service in 18 months and this time they want to do teh one that would normally be done at 30k km, when we have only done 11k km.
> 
> Our at time brand new Outback battery ran down after sitting for about 10 days, starting once then loading car with tailgate/doors open for an hour or two. Car would not start. Had to charge overnight before heading South in morning. Was more careful from then on. Battery on maintenance when stored. Otherwise run car enough to charge battery. I could see a problem for owners who take a vacation and leave car at airport or wherever for 2 or 3 weeks. We had that problem once with the Mercedes.


Why would you talk about only having done 11k as if that somehow was relevant to the time interval recommended by the manufacturer? The whole point of their being an X km OR Y time is because each has an affect on the vehicle that makes it wise to do what is suggested you have done. It is not a when 'both' are exceeded, do the service, it is when EITHER is exceeded do the service. 

Really, it isn't hard to understand, what it is, is hard to spend the money when you haven't exceeded both. It feels like somehow you are losing money. The solution to that is go out and drive more if you are running out of time to service but aren't near the km. to service number. If you work it right, you could get both to the max at the same time. LOL

Re batteries, if a vehicle is regularly left sitting and battery drain is an issue, it's easy to install a cut-off switch like this one:








Top Post Battery Master Cut-Off Switch | Princess Auto


Top Post Battery Master Cut-Off Switch




www.princessauto.com





I had one on a classic car years ago, like this one:








12V DC Keyed Battery Disconnect Switch | Princess Auto


12V DC Keyed Battery Disconnect Switch




www.princessauto.com





The difference is the first allows 'memory' settings to be maintained.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

agent99 said:


> We are due for our 3rd service in 18 months and this time they want to do teh one that would normally be done at 30k km, when we have only done 11k km.


Subaru Canada has nicely organized maintenance schedule Weird that every country has a different schedule (or maybe it's just the US because miles) I've noticed that different regions and dealers interpret and skip/add things. The Germans were extreme by the book while the Cdn dealers I've questioned clearly never read the book.

A lot of it is out of an abundance of caution but it's interesting they can threaten your warranty while at the same time ignoring things like running a special computer on the traction control system while flushing brake fluid. That sounded worthwhile to pay the dealer for but at least in Canada they do it just like I can at home (no computer)

I'm getting close to the big 10 year maintenance items but not even half way mileage wise. If not for winter I could probably just rent like james4beach


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

makes you wonder if changing oil as often as we do is necessary. 

i Follow most manufacturers recommendations....although I deviate at times. Honda calls for brake fluid to be changed every 3 years. I’ve only owned Honda’s and have never done it Except on my newest 2013 accord which has Historical brake caliper issues. If you don’t have proof of the fluid changes, they won’t honour the warranty on the calipers.

sold my 2000 accord in 2014. Never changed the brake fluid. New owner had it certified and theY said it needed new brake lines as they were showing some rust. Paid $500 for the repair which is about what I would have paid for 4 brake fluid changes. Although with brakes, Safety trumps cost.

our Hondas have oil life monitors. I’m coming up on one year without a change and it’s still at 70% life. Honda then says, you should change the oil once a year.

Wife’s Honda has a CVT. Our first care with this this. It called for a fluid change at about 85,000 km....seemed early but apparently fluid changes are even more critical on CVTs vs. Traditional automatics. 

my biggest beef with the Honda recommended service is their brake service recommendation. It runs around $250....probably every 2 years or 20-25,000 Kms. They basically want the brake slider pins to be cleaned and lubed to maintain equal pad degradation. It’s like $10 in parts and the rest is labour. Otherwise you’re looking at new rotors every 5 years or 60k.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> Subaru Canada has nicely organized maintenance schedule Weird that every country has a different schedule (or maybe it's just the US because miles) I've noticed that different regions and dealers interpret and skip/add things. The Germans were extreme by the book while the Cdn dealers I've questioned clearly never read the book.
> 
> A lot of it is out of an abundance of caution but it's interesting they can threaten your warranty while at the same time ignoring things like running a special computer on the traction control system while flushing brake fluid. That sounded worthwhile to pay the dealer for but at least in Canada they do it just like I can at home (no computer)
> 
> I'm getting close to the big 10 year maintenance items but not even half way mileage wise. If not for winter I could probably just rent like james4beach


LOL, I have one son who stopped owning a car a few years back as he lives in the city and actually used his vehicle very little. He now rents when he wants to and since he is saving a whole lot of money on not buying, maintaining and insuring a vehicle, he rents high end or classic vehicles since he says it still costs him less than owning. It wasn't about being able to afford to own, he could afford it, he simply decided to spend the money in a different way.

There are now quite a few third party services that connect renters to owners like Airbnb. For example:





Self Drive Car Rental, Toronto, Classic, Romantic: BookAclassic


BookAclassic self-drive classic car rental in Toronto. Experience sensational vehicles and cars. The largest selection of romantic, modern and vintage cars.




www.bookaclassic.ca





For a splurge check these cars out:





Exotic Car & Supercar Rentals







gtaexotics.ca


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Money172375 said:


> sold my 2000 accord in 2014. Never changed the brake fluid. New owner had it certified and theY said it needed new brake lines as they were showing some rust. Paid $500 for the repair which is about what I would have paid for 4 brake fluid changes. Although with brakes, Safety trumps cost.


Yea I think most people just check the fluid level. As long as there is enough fluid the brakes should work.. the brake peddle just gets mushy with old fluid. I'm a bit obsessive about the feel of brakes.. sometimes new fluid makes it worse with all the ABS/traction control if any air got in you have to try again



Money172375 said:


> our Hondas have oil life monitors. I’m coming up on one year without a change and it’s still at 70% life. Honda then says, you should change the oil once a year.


Seems more common than 6 months. Maybe it's because of the Subaru boxer engines and some of them known to be harder on oil. Most manufactures also recommend thinner oil for slightly better efficiency rather than an oil for best engine protection. I go with 1 year and better oil (Rotella T6)



Money172375 said:


> my biggest beef with the Honda recommended service is their brake service recommendation. It runs around $250....probably every 2 years or 20-25,000 Kms. They basically want the brake slider pins to be cleaned and lubed to maintain equal pad degradation. It’s like $10 in parts and the rest is labour. Otherwise you’re looking at new rotors every 5 years or 60k.


I clean and lube slider pins when I swap summer/winter wheels. Really if already taking the wheels off it's very little labour, brake part cleaner ($5) and anti-seize ($10 and lasts forever) Even so the harsh winter still ruins my rotors in about 5 years. Unlike the old days though rotors are cheap and very easy to swap now


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

m3s said:


> Yea I think most people just check the fluid level. As long as there is enough fluid the brakes should work.. the brake peddle just gets mushy with old fluid. I'm a bit obsessive about the feel of brakes.. sometimes new fluid makes it worse with all the ABS/traction control if any air got in you have to try again
> 
> 
> 
> ...


apparently brake fluid absorbs water (even in a sealed chamber?)....causing the fluids temp to change more rapidly.....who knows the truth...we all do what we’re accustomed to and what we want to spend....


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Never misplaced our key in 24 years. Always kept in the same place, in the car at all times.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

If you use a pressure bleeder, you should not get any air in. Any time I have wheels off and checking brakes, I pressure bleed. Easy to do. Replaces old brake fluid that makes brakes spongy and corrodes brake lines and calipers.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> apparently brake fluid absorbs water (even in a sealed chamber?)....causing the fluids temp to change more rapidly.....who knows the truth...we all do what we’re accustomed to and what we want to spend....


Not totally sealed. Reservoir at top is open to atmosphere through a vent. And, there are the flexible rubber brake lines. Water vapour in air can permeate those lines. And it does. Old fluid from bleeding will show much higher water content than new fluid. The fluid is very hygroscopic. Once a container has been opened, it should not be kept for long. It too will absorb moisture. I buy in small containers.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

agent99 said:


> Not totally sealed. Reservoir at top is open to atmosphere through a vent.


I've only ever seen sealed reservoirs.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

cainvest said:


> I've only ever seen sealed reservoirs.


You may have to look more closely. Unvented reservoirs with large spring loaded cap and diaphragm are not common these days.

This is the state of the art as described in a patent application for an improved system:



> Master cylinder reservoirs come in two major types. One type is the nonvented, and the other being the vented master cylinder reservoirs. In the nonvented master cylinder reservoir the reservoir is covered by a flexible diaphragm which provides a variable control volume to accommodate changes in the fluid level within the reservoir. Typically, the unvented reservoir has a diaphragm held in place by a large cap with a spring clamp. In an attempt to make the brake fluid reservoir more user friendly in maintenance, the reservoir was developed with a screw cap to make servicing the reservoir more convenient. However, the diaphragm within the screw cap did not in itself have enough displacement to accommodate the fluid changes with the reservoir. Therefore, the diaphragm and cap are vented. Care must be taken in vented reservoirs to provide a venting system which allows the reservoir to be vented while at the same time excluding the entrance of particles into the brake fluid. Previously such diaphragms had a slit, such as disclosed in Boyer, U.S. Pat. No. 3,070,058. However, it is important that the slit open whenever there is an excessive pressure or a vacuum within the brake fluid reservoir. Entrapment of lubricant upon the diaphragm can sometimes cause the diaphragm to inadvertently seal shut. Some leakage or loss of fluid always does occur sooner or later and, if the vent is kept closed, a vacuum will build up in the reservoir. This means, then, that an inadequate supply of brake fluid is soon provided in front of the master cylinder and that on pumping the brake pedal very little additional fluid is provided, causing the brakes to be soft and spongy. Sensor systems, that indicate when there is a leak in the system, require the system to vent properly to indicate that there is a leak. A non-vented system would not drain properly to give the desired response with sensor systems.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

agent99 said:


> You may have to look more closely. Unvented reservoirs with large spring loaded cap and diaphragm are not common these days.


I'm not sure about the newest versions but the venting doesn't interact directly with the brake fluid right? Isn't there is a rubber diaphragm_,_ seal or bellow between the air and the brake fluid?


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

cainvest said:


> I'm not sure about the newest versions but the venting doesn't interact directly with the brake fluid right? Isn't there is a rubber diaphragm_,_ seal or bellow between the air and the brake fluid?


If you read the description I posted, it explains it. One type would have slit in the diaphragm. It acts as a check valve. There is always air above the fluid in the reservoir. As the fluid gets hot, it expands and compresses that air. Some air would escape through the slit/ vent. Opposite also happens. Fluid &air cool causing small vacuum . That opens vent and air comes in. Same if there is any leakage from calipers. My guess is that most of the moisture enters through the rubber brake lines. It does get in over time.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

agent99 said:


> If you read the description I posted, it explains it. One type would have slit in the diaphragm. It acts as a check valve. There is always air above the fluid in the reservoir. As the fluid gets hot, it expands and compresses that air. Some air would escape through the slit/ vent. Opposite also happens. Fluid &air cool causing small vacuum . That opens vent and air comes in. Same if there is any leakage from calipers. My guess is that most of the moisture enters through the rubber brake lines. It does get in over time.


I read it, just not sure what types are used most often today. Also, that is only one patent, other methods may be used by differrent makers. The old spring clamp type are very old, haven't seen those except on classic cars. My motorcycles still used a sealed diaphragm type.

Regardless, brake fluid should be swapped out for best performance when the service is due. Also, using a fluid that has a higher wet boiling point will retain better performance for a longer time.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

As brake pads wear the piston extends and more brake fluid goes into the lines and new air into the reservoir. Probably atmospheric changes as well

Brake fluid is not expensive to change yourself more of just a hassle and potential for mess


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

While I understand why some people choose to do their own oil changes, etc. I've always had all my car maintenance done by a reliable mechanic. I do so for 2 reasons, first I recognize that they know more than I do. I might miss for example some fine metal shavings in transmission fluid that they spot and know what that indicates.

Second, I value my time and that becomes especially more valuable as I get older. Spending my time doing a 'chore' is not best use of my time and as long as I can afford to pay someone else to do anything I consider a chore, then that is what I do. it really depends on what an individual considers 'fun to do' vs. a 'chore to do'. I don't personally see any fun in doing an oil change.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Cooking your own food takes time and I would also consider it a chore. I do like to know exactly what I'm eating and the sense of accomplishment from cooking my own food. Plus most of the hassle is learning a dish at first and after that you may realize it's just faster/easier/better to make it yourself in the comfort of your own home.

If you drive even 10 mins to the mechanic, wait even 5 mins before they start you will waste more time changing your oil than I do. They will not care if all the old oil drips out or what goes in. They are paid by the job and will likely cut many corners because you will never know. They are often not very knowledgeable or experienced on your particular vehicle at all

I mean I get why people don't work on their own vehicles but unfortunately this has made it very easy for them to offer poor service for very high cost. At $100/hr shop rates I would be better to hire a house cleaner at min wage and learn some basic mechanics (90% of vehicle maint is very very basic) Not many people can value their time at $100/hr


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> While I understand why some people choose to do their own oil changes, etc. I've always had all my car maintenance done by a reliable mechanic. I do so for 2 reasons, first I recognize that they know more than I do. I might miss for example some fine metal shavings in transmission fluid that they spot and know what that indicates.
> 
> Second, I value my time and that becomes especially more valuable as I get older. Spending my time doing a 'chore' is not best use of my time and as long as I can afford to pay someone else to do anything I consider a chore, then that is what I do. it really depends on what an individual considers 'fun to do' vs. a 'chore to do'. I don't personally see any fun in doing an oil change.


Doing your own work isn't for everyone but it can save you a whole lot of money over the years and, generally, you know the job is done right and what exact parts/fluids were used.

Another big potential savings is knowing that a job is coming up (brakes,oil,etc) and getting the parts on sale. A couple of months back they had synthetic oil on sale plus a rebate. So instead of paying $55 for 5L I got it for $17 each and the same for a pail of Rotella T6, $160 regular got it for $106. My last strut/shock replacement was done during a "buy one get one free" deal so that was an easy $350 savings on parts.

Time wise it can be a savings DIY if you're required to leave your car somewhere for the work to be done.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Come on people, anyone can self-justify their actions. I don't get poor service from uncaring and unqualified mechanics. I wrote 'reliable mechanic' for a reason. You can't then attempt to refute what I wrote by going on about a bad mechanic.

I don't waste more time taking my vehicle to a mechanic than it takes someone else to do their own oil change. That's ridiculous to suggest. If you want me to refute it I will. All I do is phone my local garage and arrange an appointment. On the designated day at the arranged time, they come and PICK UP my vehicle and later return it. So an oil change takes me about a 2 minute phone call max. Can you change your oil faster than that?

And yes m3s, I value my time at more than $100 an hour. I used to sell my time at over $300 an hour and that was 30 years ago. Now my time is worth even more since I have even less of it left. Do you really want to argue that your time is worth less than a mechanics time? You aren't valuing yourself very highly then are you.

Doing your own work isn't saving you money, you are just spending that money elsewhere probably. If you have a more limited amount of money to spend, then I can see that mattering to someone but if you have more than enough money for both, it's irrelevant. I don't do without a vacation in order to pay for car servicing. I can afford to do both. Saving money servicing your own car only matters if you can't afford to pay someone else and I included 'afford' in my response above for that reason.

It doesn't save you time to DIY if you have to leave your car somewhere cainvest. Are you trying to suggest that while your car is in the garage you sit home twiddling your thumbs till you get it back? 

All you guys are doing is self-justifying doing it yourself. I can as easily self-justify having others do it for me. What really matters as I tried to indicate is whether you enjoy your time spent doing it or not. Is it a chore or fun? If it is fun for you then fine, it's worth your time to do it yourself and if it isn't fun it is not worth your time to do it yourself UNLESS you can't AFFORD to pay someone else to do it.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Doing your own work isn't saving you money, you are just spending that money elsewhere probably.


lmao, so it's impossible to save money because you're going to spend it anyways ... how'd you think up that gem?



Longtimeago said:


> It doesn't save you time to DIY if you have to leave your car somewhere cainvest. Are you trying to suggest that while your car is in the garage you sit home twiddling your thumbs till you get it back?


Obviously it takes away my ability to drive somewhere doesn't it? This is my high driving season, among other things, I'm out fishing or riding 3-5 times a week so the last thing I want is my vehicle sitting at a garage.



Longtimeago said:


> All you guys are doing is self-justifying doing it yourself. I can as easily self-justify having others do it for me. What really matters as I tried to indicate is whether you enjoy your time spent doing it or not. Is it a chore or fun? If it is fun for you then fine, it's worth your time to do it yourself and if it isn't fun it is not worth your time to do it yourself UNLESS you can't AFFORD to pay someone else to do it.


Nothing wrong with having others doing the work for you, just saying there are really good benefits to doing that work yourself. Also, even if it's a chore doesn't exclude you from doing it yourself. I guess you have someone to do all your simple (not fun) chores around the house for you. 

Another point, how do you know if your mechanic is good? I know people that keep on going back to bad shops saying stuff like "I trust them" and "They always give a me good deal" etc. In reality they are getting shoddy work, crappy parts and paying more in the end than going to a stealership.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

It is relatively easy for us to evaluate our mechanic. First of all he was recommended by several other long time Toyota owners. Second, after relying on him for 20 plus years we have not had one breakdown. We frequently drive from Calgary to Vancouver and back. We like our vehicles to be in top running condition. Do not want to be stuck in the boonies. Not only that, on those numerous occasions when we got our oil changed at a Toyota dealership, along with the usual list of mtce items and pricing, we took that list to our mechanic. He told us what on that list had to be done along with an accurate quote. He did the same for us on our Honda.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Do your own servicing, no one cares if you do. While you're doing it, I'm doing something more enjoyable with my time and you can 'take that to the bank.'

Quite frankly, anyone I hear of doing their own oil changes is someone I immediately label as a 'cheapskate.' There is no pleasure to be derived from doing an oil change, you're just too cheap to spend the money having someone do it. That's the bottom line.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

I do them on my bike, boat, pwc. The labour costs and wait times (especially for the water craft) are outrageous. I did them on cars in the past...it seemed like the savings were better in the past...but maybe I’m wrong. I remember oil was $1 litre and the filter was like $5. 

synth/semi-synth Oil now is what...at least $5-10 litre and a o filter is probably close to $15. My dealership charges $58 I think for a change. Sure I could find it cheaper elsewhere. 

by the way....a lot of oil 50% off this week at Canadian tire in Ontario..


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> I do them on my bike, boat, pwc. The labour costs and wait times (especially for the water craft) are outrageous. I did them on cars in the past...it seemed like the savings were better in the past...but maybe I’m wrong. I remember oil was $1 litre and the filter was like $5.
> 
> synth/semi-synth Oil now is what...at least $5-10 litre and a o filter is probably close to $15. My dealership charges $58 I think for a change. Sure I could find it cheaper elsewhere.
> 
> by the way....a lot of oil 50% off this week at Canadian tire in Ontario..


Yes, it is all about 'saving money' Money172375 but people absolutely do not want to admit that is their prime motivation. Like I said, cheapskates trying to hoard a buck. Instead they try to tell me they can do a better job than my mechanic can and spend less time doing it than I do having my mechanic doing it. Who do they really think they are kidding? They sure aren't kidding me.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

I used to genuinely enjoy it. But getting under the car And storing a bunch of used oil Is not my cup of tea. I enjoy working on the small boat outboard. It’s at the perfect height and easy. Only 1 litre of oil. The pwc is a pain in the butt, but the dealer wants $120 and 1 week. plus I don’t have trailer lights. Costs me about $50. Only did it once, I’m sure this year will be easier. The bike is relatively easy.

i find the automobile oil change industry is pretty competitive. Honda will match any comparable price. I do hate the cross-sell.......it’s always something. Just ask for an written estimate and then get my brother to have a look. He’s a Honda tech.....although an hour away.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> While you're doing it, I'm doing something more enjoyable with my time and you can 'take that to the bank.'


I changed the oil in my bike today in less time than you spend typing


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

m3s said:


> I changed the oil in my bike today in less time than you spend typing


lol, so glad I didn't have a mouth full of coffee reading that! 
I could probably get a new top end in my 2 stroke done with the amount of typing LTA does each morning.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Do your own servicing, no one cares if you do. While you're doing it, I'm doing something more enjoyable with my time and you can 'take that to the bank.'
> 
> Quite frankly, anyone I hear of doing their own oil changes is someone I immediately label as a 'cheapskate.' There is no pleasure to be derived from doing an oil change, you're just too cheap to spend the money having someone do it. That's the bottom line.


Don't get upset LTA, we know "work" or "chores" are tasks that only lesser people do in your eyes.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

I could afford to pay someone, but I still choose to do the majority of my own repairs and maintenance. I wouldn't call it fun, but that's no different than a lot of other chores like vacuuming, cooking, or painting the front door. We each have to decide which things we're willing to do vs. paying someone else to do them for us. I'd probably rather do an oil change than cook dinner, but that doesn't mean I'm going to eat at a restaurant every night.

Doing my own maintenance and repairs probably saves me about $500 a year. Invest that amount every year for 30 years and I could probably retire a year sooner. Not bad value for a few hours of work every six months, IMO.

If you prefer not to do your own work that's fine, there's no need to bend over backwards to justify it. That's just the norm... not everyone has the time or the aptitude.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> Quite frankly, anyone I hear of doing their own oil changes is someone I immediately label as a 'cheapskate.' There is no pleasure to be derived from doing an oil change, you're just too cheap to spend the money having someone do it. That's the bottom line.


I shingled my house a couple weeks ago...shingling is 99% unskilled grunt labour and 1% semi-skilled labour. I saved $3,000 for 2 days of work but I guess that makes me a cheapskate.

I can also change the oil in my car but choose not to. The money saved by shingling my house will pay for 20 years of oil changes.


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## dotnet_nerd (Jul 1, 2009)

Money172375 said:


>


That video was great. It should be a Honda commercial.

Not to be outdone by Toyota. This 3-part BBC series is amusing to watch as well...


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Prairie Guy said:


> I shingled my house a couple weeks ago...shingling is 99% unskilled grunt labour and 1% semi-skilled labour. I saved $3,000 for 2 days of work but I guess that makes me a cheapskate.
> 
> I can also change the oil in my car but choose not to. The money saved by shingling my house will pay for 20 years of oil changes.


Whether it's shingles (or other home repairs), auto repairs/maintenance, landscaping, painting ... all that saved money goes into the bank. Over the years this can all add up to a significant amount of cash and you know exactly how well each job was done.

If I won a multi million dollar lottery I'd still do my own oil changes, probably wouldn't shingle my own roof though.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> I changed the oil in my bike today in less time than you spend typing


Doubtful, I type at 75 wpm. It took me 10 seconds to type this.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Don't get upset LTA, we know "work" or "chores" are tasks that only lesser people do in your eyes.


Not 'lesser people' cainvest, just less fortunate people who either can't afford to pay or are cheapskates. You probably do your own laundry and house cleaning too.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

nathan79 said:


> I could afford to pay someone, but I still choose to do the majority of my own repairs and maintenance. I wouldn't call it fun, but that's no different than a lot of other chores like vacuuming, cooking, or painting the front door. We each have to decide which things we're willing to do vs. paying someone else to do them for us. I'd probably rather do an oil change than cook dinner, but that doesn't mean I'm going to eat at a restaurant every night.
> 
> Doing my own maintenance and repairs probably saves me about $500 a year. Invest that amount every year for 30 years and I could probably retire a year sooner. Not bad value for a few hours of work every six months, IMO.
> 
> If you prefer not to do your own work that's fine, there's no need to bend over backwards to justify it. That's just the norm... not everyone has the time or the aptitude.


Yes you are offering a more reasoned approach nathan79 but still making assumptions. For example, you suggest you save $500 which you could invest for 30 years etc. However, I would suggest that IF I were to take the time you spend doing those things to save $500, I could earn more in that given amount of time which I could then invest and make even more money than your $500 could make you. What you are assuming is that your time is worth less than $500.

As I see it, people want to insist on 'bending over backwards' to justify their DIY. I agree not everyone has the aptitude to earn more in an hour than they can save by DIYing. LOL


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Prairie Guy said:


> I shingled my house a couple weeks ago...shingling is 99% unskilled grunt labour and 1% semi-skilled labour. I saved $3,000 for 2 days of work but I guess that makes me a cheapskate.
> 
> I can also change the oil in my car but choose not to. The money saved by shingling my house will pay for 20 years of oil changes.


Yup, doing your own shingling is for cheapskates Prairie Guy. That's a thankless job that I would never do myself. Thank goodness I can afford not to without even given the cost a second thought. Coincidentally, we had it re-done just last year. Saved a ton of time over doing it myself. Time is worth more than money.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Not 'lesser people' cainvest, just less fortunate people who either can't afford to pay or are cheapskates. You probably do your own laundry and house cleaning too.


For sure I do my own laundry and house cleaning along with many, many other things. 

Just for fun LTA, come down off your throne and do a little work, like a simple oil change ... you'll experience a new feeling you've likely never had in your life ... pride in a job well done.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Whether it's shingles (or other home repairs), auto repairs/maintenance, landscaping, painting ... all that saved money goes into the bank. Over the years this can all add up to a significant amount of cash and you know exactly how well each job was done.
> 
> If I won a multi million dollar lottery I'd still do my own oil changes, probably wouldn't shingle my own roof though.


You really don't get it do you cainvest. The money goes in the bank. OK, where does the time go? Your assumption remains that the money is worth more than your time. That means you are putting a $ value on your time. So how much is it? $100 an hour, $1000 a day, how much? At what number will you decide that your time is worth more than the money? 

Last year, one of my sons was talking to me about replacing the deck boards on their backyard deck. The frame was good, he just wanted to rip up the old deck boards and replace them. He had a quote for around $5k (plus new board cost) to do it. He was thinking of doing it himself instead. I asked him how many days he figured it would take him to pry screwed down deck boards up with a crowbar, etc. There is no easy and quick way to remove screwed down decking. Then of course you have to have someway to dispose of the old boards; buy and transport the new boards; and finally, cut and install the new boards. Given the size of his deck, I estimated it would take him a good 7 full days to do all of that. The professionals on the other hand would have 2 people who would rip the old boards off and throw them in their truck in a day. They would then arrive the second day with the new boards on their truck and probably be finished installing them by the end of the third day, job done.

So do the math, if they do it in 3 days for $5k that's $1666 per day for 2 people. Even if he could do it in 6 days (double the time for 2 people) and even ignoring his cost to get rid of the old boards, have the new boards delivered and the sheer hard physical labour of doing it himself, that would mean he valued his own time at $833 per day. That's a significant number for most people and if that is all you looked at you could conclude it was worth the time and effort to do it yourself.

But what about the time? If he could do it in 6 days, that really means 3 weekends. What is the value of 3 weekends that you lose? Can you put a dollar value on that? It's like 'missed opportunity cost' Here is how you have to think about that:
"_The concept of opportunity cost may be applied to many different situations. It should be considered whenever circumstances are such that scarcity necessitates the election of one option over another. Opportunity cost is usually defined in terms of money, but it may also be considered in terms of time, person-hours, mechanical output, or any other finite resource."_
Taken from here: Opportunity Cost.
Now apply that to what you might do with 3 weekends. Suppose you decided to spend a weekend with your family lazing by your backyard pool and barbecuing, just enjoying some 'quality family time' together. How much is that worth? Can you put a dollar value on it? Suppose you spend the second weekend on a 'weekend getaway', just you and your spouse. How much is that worth in dollars to you? Suppose you spent your 3rd weekend going fly fishing on your favourite river with a couple of buddies. What's the $ value to you of that? You might save $5k by doing it yourself but you will lose the time to do things like those. 

I'd rather have the 3 weekends than the $5k savings. The only reason to not do so for me would be if I couldn't afford the $5k or I was just a cheapskate.

My son had the professionals do it by the way. He could afford it.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> For sure I do my own laundry and house cleaning along with many, many other things.
> 
> Just for fun LTA, come down off your throne and do a little work, like a simple oil change ... you'll experience a new feeling you've likely never had in your life ... pride in a job well done.


Your attempts at insulting remarks are pathetic cainvest. What are you, 13?

I take pride in being intelligent enough to know my time is worth more than just money.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Here's the thing, both sides have their views, but neither is really truly right or truly wrong. It really comes to priorities and personal preference.
Personally, I lean towards having someone else doing things like car maintenance, or home renovations simply because I'm not that handy. When it comes to car maintenance, my feelings are pretty much: well, I paid tens of thousands for a car, why not spend the extra $50 to have someone change the oil and filter rather than do it myself and risk doing something wrong and somehow damaging the car? Whereas someone who has some more experience may also pick up other signs of possible issues that I wouldn't pick up on, so that they can be addressed before they become major issues. At the end of the day, it's an extra $100/yr, or $2k over the lifetime of the car (assuming you keep it for 20 years). Likewise for home renovations, unless I'm living in a fixer-upper, the likelihood of my doing something like that again is minimal, meaning that I'd spend a lot more time at a lower quality than someone who is experienced. If it's a one-off thing, I don't see the personal benefit.
That said, I understand why some people like to do things themselves. I don't think they're necessarily cheapskates, but it's not something that I'll personally do. 
You can say that I'm burning money, but then again, I'm not spending money on things like smoking, alcohol, or Starbucks, so what difference does it make?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Your attempts at insulting remarks are pathetic cainvest. What are you, 13?
> 
> I take pride in being intelligent enough to know my time is worth more than just money.


Ouch 13 ... I was going for under 10 so you wouldn't have trouble understanding.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

It is getting pretty expensive to replace a roof. If you had the knowledge and ability to do it, I would think it is likely worthwhile to do oneself. There is a bit of technique to install a roof properly, which you might screw up if you do yourself but then an installer might screw up as well. I imagine it is a job with high turnover among the grunts.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

bgc_fan said:


> Here's the thing, both sides have their views, but neither is really truly right or truly wrong. It really comes to priorities and personal preference.
> Personally, I lean towards having someone else doing things like car maintenance, or home renovations simply because I'm not that handy. When it comes to car maintenance, my feelings are pretty much: well, I paid tens of thousands for a car, why not spend the extra $50 to have someone change the oil and filter rather than do it myself and risk doing something wrong and somehow damaging the car? Whereas someone who has some more experience may also pick up other signs of possible issues that I wouldn't pick up on, so that they can be addressed before they become major issues. At the end of the day, it's an extra $100/yr, or $2k over the lifetime of the car (assuming you keep it for 20 years). Likewise for home renovations, unless I'm living in a fixer-upper, the likelihood of my doing something like that again is minimal, meaning that I'd spend a lot more time at a lower quality than someone who is experienced. If it's a one-off thing, I don't see the personal benefit.
> That said, I understand why some people like to do things themselves. I don't think they're necessarily cheapskates, but it's not something that I'll personally do.
> You can say that I'm burning money, but then again, I'm not spending money on things like smoking, alcohol, or Starbucks, so what difference does it make?


If you listen to the DIYers here bgc_fan, they all do a better job than the professionals do. Yeah right.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> It is getting pretty expensive to replace a roof. If you had the knowledge and ability to do it, I would think it is likely worthwhile to do oneself. There is a bit of technique to install a roof properly, which you might screw up if you do yourself but then an installer might screw up as well. I imagine it is a job with high turnover among the grunts.


As I wrote above, andrewf, it can seem that way if you do not take into account 'lost opportunity cost' and look ONLY at $ values. It also assumes that the $ value you give to your own time even if you ignore lost opportunity costs, is lower than what you would pay someone else to do the job.

If you value your time at $100 per hour and would have to pay a roofer $200 per hour and can assume you would do as good a job, then yes, it might make sense to do it yourself. I just don't know of any roofers, auto mechanics, landscapers, etc. whose time is worth more than mine. Do you think their time is worth more than your time?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

LTA, any money you save is after-tax. So if your time is worth $100, it is worth doing work yourself if you can save ~$50/hr paid to someone else.

It is also demonstrably true that the vast majority of people don't value their time at $100/hr, because only a tiny fraction of the population have incomes of $200k+/year.

You also seem to be forgetting that there is significant time involved in bringing your vehicle to a shop. I swap my own tires because I can get it done in less time than it would take to arrange an appointment (difficult during season change), load my tires in the car, drive to the shop, wait for someone else to do it, and drive home and take my tires out of the car. Even though I am not as fast as someone who does it for a living.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> If you listen to the DIYers here bgc_fan, they all do a better job than the professionals do. Yeah right.


Ignorance is bliss isn't it LTA. 
Without the knowledge of how to do the work you wouldn't know if your so called "professional" does a better job or not.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Ignorance is bliss isn't it LTA.
> Without the knowledge of how to do the work you wouldn't know if your so called "professional" does a better job or not.


Sure, I have no doubt you can do a better job of anything you DIY than a professional can cainvest. You're no doubt an expert at many things (in your own mind anyway) and the saying, 'jack of all trades, master of none' does not apply to you.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Wow, some people go to extreme measures to calculate the benefits of paying for all services vs DIY. Its a very strange way of approaching scenarios. I am curious to know how busy some people are that their time is worth so much $$. For me, stating that their time is worth money is just a lame excuse to cover the fact they are either incompetent, lazy or envious of others. 

I find it degrading when someone calls others out as "cheap". My definition of "cheap" is when someone tries to benefit off the back of someone else; example: borrowing money and not paying it back or not paying their fair share in a group outing. 

Choosing to DIY can at most be considered frugal. I think DIY brings a great sense of pride and will also ensure the work is done well or acceptable to your own standards. It also shows a DIYer has more talent than someone who hires so-called professionals to do their chores. Not all professionals are pros and no guarantee their work is better than a DIYer.

I applaud all those who are handy and not afraid to take on chores that others view as unconventional. And good on you for saving a few extra dollars. I always enjoy having a conversation with a DIYer to learn what they have done. Could you imaging a conversation with someone who speed-dials for help all the time?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Sure, I have no doubt you can do a better job of anything you DIY than a professional can cainvest. You're no doubt an expert at many things (in your own mind anyway) and the saying, 'jack of all trades, master of none' does not apply to you.


Nope, not all things and sometimes not better (or faster) than a pro ... I'll gladly admit that.
I certainly do better than many of what you call "pros" out there. How many oil change places have ruined the oil pan threads or shops have over-torqued wheel lug nuts not to mention skipping the prep-work so your wheel don't sieze on?

I know you'll continue to ignore the benefits of DIY so I won't go on about it.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mortgage u/w said:


> Wow, some people go to extreme measures to calculate the benefits of paying for all services vs DIY. Its a very strange way of approaching scenarios. I am curious to know how busy some people are that their time is worth so much $$. For me, stating that their time is worth money is just a lame excuse to cover the fact they are either incompetent, lazy or envious of others.
> 
> I find it degrading when someone calls others out as "cheap". My definition of "cheap" is when someone tries to benefit off the back of someone else; example: borrowing money and not paying it back or not paying their fair share in a group outing.
> 
> ...


Mortgage u/w, why concentrate only on the 'how much is your time worth' and totally ignore the lost opportunity cost I wrote about.

You tell me how you would choose between some DIY work and as I wrote earlier, "_Now apply that to what you might do with 3 weekends. Suppose you decided to spend a weekend with your family lazing by your backyard pool and barbecuing, just enjoying some 'quality family time' together. How much is that worth? Can you put a dollar value on it? Suppose you spend the second weekend on a 'weekend getaway', just you and your spouse. How much is that worth in dollars to you? Suppose you spent your 3rd weekend going fly fishing on your favourite river with a couple of buddies. What's the $ value to you of that? You might save $5k by doing it yourself but you will lose the time to do things like those."_

How would you choose between doing those things vs. paying someone to do some work that would give you the time to do those things? The choice is not just about my time is worth $X vs. their time is worth $Y. The choice is also about lost TIME just to save some money. 

Under what circumstances would you give up those 3 hypothetical weekends in order to save some money DIYing a project? I suggest the only circumstances would be if you could not afford to pay for the work or were just someone who valued money more than their time.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Nope, not all things and sometimes not better (or faster) than a pro ... I'll gladly admit that.
> I certainly do better than many of what you call "pros" out there. How many oil change places have ruined the oil pan threads or shops have over-torqued wheel lug nuts not to mention skipping the prep-work so your wheel don't sieze on?
> 
> I know you'll continue to ignore the benefits of DIY so I won't go on about it.


LOL, not one has ever 'ruined the oil pan threads' or 'over-torqued wheel lug nuts' on any car I have owned in the 55 years of my owning cars. 

Only someone with no real basis for an argument tries to hang their hat on one far fetched example.

How many DIYers have done exactly what you say COULD happen if a professional does the work? Are you going to try and suggest it is less likely with DIYers? Hilarious.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> LOL, not one has ever 'ruined the oil pan threads' or 'over-torqued wheel lug nuts' on any car I have owned in the 55 years of my owning cars.
> 
> Only someone with no real basis for an argument tries to hang their hat on one far fetched example.
> 
> How many DIYers have done exactly what you say COULD happen if a professional does the work? Are you going to try and suggest it is less likely with DIYers? Hilarious.


Yes, I'm sure your life has never encountered problems with other peoples work. Go read on car forums on how often this has happened or even shops putting the wrong oil in a car. I'm sure you think your single experience speaks for the world.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> Mortgage u/w, why concentrate only on the 'how much is your time worth' and totally ignore the lost opportunity cost I wrote about.
> 
> You tell me how you would choose between some DIY work and as I wrote earlier, "_Now apply that to what you might do with 3 weekends. Suppose you decided to spend a weekend with your family lazing by your backyard pool and barbecuing, just enjoying some 'quality family time' together. How much is that worth? Can you put a dollar value on it? Suppose you spend the second weekend on a 'weekend getaway', just you and your spouse. How much is that worth in dollars to you? Suppose you spent your 3rd weekend going fly fishing on your favourite river with a couple of buddies. What's the $ value to you of that? You might save $5k by doing it yourself but you will lose the time to do things like those."_
> 
> ...


DIY does not deprive you of anything. DIY is not a burden but rather a pleasurable task that I as said, provides a great sense to pride and accomplishment. There is enough time in the day to DIY and enjoy family time. To tell you the truth, some great memories of my family were during a DIY project.

My point is not to overdo everything. There are certain things to be left to the real pros. But nothing wrong with picking up a wrench from time to time and enjoy the outcome.....all the while sipping on a beer with the family and admiring your work.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Canadian Tire did not put the incorrect oil in my car. They failed to replace any of the oil they drained. Fortunately I make a habit of checking my oil after each oil change.....before leaving the shop.

Our next and last experience was when I asked them to replace a front light on my spouse's car. When I picked it up they said I needed new breaks. Also said that if it was his wife's car he would not let her drive it before the brakes were done. That statement was the tip off for me. I did not just fall off the pumpkin truck as they say..

I said no thanks, got the car and surprise surprise the headlight had been installed but not connected properly. Back into the shop. Oh, and the brakes. Took the car to our mechanic. He did the inspection, laughed, and told us that the service reps at Canadian Tire often do this because they are on commission.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Yes, I'm sure your life has never encountered problems with other peoples work. Go read on car forums on how often this has happened or even shops putting the wrong oil in a car. I'm sure you think your single experience speaks for the world.


No, my single experience does not speak for the world nor does the single experience of anyone who has encountered a problem. The objective view would be how many of all people who had an oil change done in a garage had a bad experience vs. a good one and then compare that to how many DIYers got it wrong when they did their own oil change vs. how many got it right. 

That would be the only way to determine the 'odds' of having it done vs. doing it yourself being a better bet one way or the other. You want to suggest DIYers would get it wrong less often than professionals would. On what evidence do you suggest that? I certainly know of no DIY type of work where it is commonly known that DIYers do a better job than professionals. I would suggest to you that it is commonly known though that DIYers often get it wrong.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

ian said:


> Canadian Tire did not put the incorrect oil in my car. They failed to replace any of the oil they drained. Fortunately I make a habit of checking my oil after each oil change.....before leaving the shop.
> 
> Our next and last experience was when I asked them to replace a front light on my spouse's car. When I picked it up they said I needed new breaks. Also said that if it was his wife's car he would not let her drive it before the brakes were done. That statement was the tip off for me. I did not just fall off the pumpkin truck as they say..
> 
> I said no thanks, got the car and surprise surprise the headlight had been installed but not connected properly. Back into the shop. Oh, and the brakes. Took the car to our mechanic. He did the inspection, laughed, and told us that the service reps at Canadian Tire often do this because they are on commission.


These are perfect examples where someone who is handy and takes pride in understanding car mechanics will never be fooled by a "professional".

Those who tend to always hire help because their time is too valuable will view this Canadian Tire shop as the greatest thing because they "took care" of their car and saved them a bundle of "valuable time".


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> Canadian Tire did not put the incorrect oil in my car. They failed to replace any of the oil they drained. Fortunately I make a habit of checking my oil after each oil change.....before leaving the shop.
> 
> Our next and last experience was when I asked them to replace a front light on my spouse's car. When I picked it up they said I needed new breaks. Also said that if it was his wife's car he would not let her drive it before the brakes were done. That statement was the tip off for me. I did not just fall off the pumpkin truck as they say..
> 
> I said no thanks, got the car and surprise surprise the headlight had been installed but not connected properly. Back into the shop. Oh, and the brakes. Took the car to our mechanic. He did the inspection, laughed, and told us that the service reps at Canadian Tire often do this because they are on commission.


LOL, the only mistake I see in all of that ian is that you took your car to a Canadian Tire and a mechanic you did not know and trust. Why would you do that? Had you just moved to a new area and had no neighbours or locals you could ask for a recommendation to a good mechanic?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> No, my single experience does not speak for the world nor does the single experience of anyone who has encountered a problem. The objective view would be how many of all people who had an oil change done in a garage had a bad experience vs. a good one and then compare that to how many DIYers got it wrong when they did their own oil change vs. how many got it right.
> 
> That would be the only way to determine the 'odds' of having it done vs. doing it yourself being a better bet one way or the other. You want to suggest DIYers would get it wrong less often than professionals would. On what evidence do you suggest that? I certainly know of no DIY type of work where it is commonly known that DIYers do a better job than professionals. I would suggest to you that it is commonly known though that DIYers often get it wrong.


So why did you even bother to say it has never happened to you ... by your own reasoning it is not relevant!
Since you have little or no knowledge of the DIY crowd why do you even bother to suggest you know about them?

I do discuss things with many other DIY people and generally it comes out as a job well done but of course, not always.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> LOL, the only mistake I see in all of that ian is that you took your car to a Canadian Tire and a mechanic you did not know and trust. Why would you do that? Had you just moved to a new area and had no neighbours or locals you could ask for a recommendation to a good mechanic?


And your neighbors/locals never gave you bad advise in your world right? lmao.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Yes, just moved. Plus......I do not go to my mechanic for oil changes or for simple things like headlight replacement (if I cannot do it myself). Not worth his time. He is strictly mechanical. My colleagues with the same brand of imports gave me the name of a great mechanic. Been with him for 20 years. Was with the last one in Vancouver for about as long.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mortgage u/w said:


> These are perfect examples where someone who is handy and takes pride in understanding car mechanics will never be fooled by a "professional".
> 
> Those who tend to always hire help because their time is too valuable will view this Canadian Tire shop as the greatest thing because they "took care" of their car and saved them a bundle of "valuable time".


Absolute nonsense. Yet another perfect example of someone taking one piece of 'anecdotal evidence' and trying to hang their hat on it as if it were a 'general' fact.

When we moved to the small town we now live in, we needed to find (over a period of time obviously), a mechanic, an electrician, a plumber, a painter, a renovation contractor, a driveway installation contractor, a roofer, etc. We've used all of them since moving here and not ONE has disappointed us. All of them were recommended to us by local acquaintances.

Not long after we moved here we had a raccoon family make a home in our chimney. I was picking up a package at the local post office and the woman asked, 'how's it going, getting settled in'? I answered, 'not bad but we now have a raccoon family in the chimney.' She then said, 'oh, you should call John out at the golf course, we will take care of that for you.' Then she went and looked up the phone number and wrote it down for me.

I called John and he came over and set a couple of traps. He caught 4 ***** over 2 days and took them all away to let loose off in some local woodland. When I asked him how much I owed him, he said, 'how does $10 sound?' Ten dollars to remove 4 ***** including 4 trips back and forth! I couldn't pay him that little. I paid him $10 PER **** and still considered that a low cost.

Now if you want to try and hang your hat on anecdotal evidence Mortgage u/w, try telling me how a professional 'fooled' me with those *****.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> Absolute nonsense. Yet another perfect example of someone taking one piece of 'anecdotal evidence' and trying to hang their hat on it as if it were a 'general' fact.
> 
> When we moved to the small town we now live in, we needed to find (over a period of time obviously), a mechanic, an electrician, a plumber, a painter, a renovation contractor, a driveway installation contractor, a roofer, etc. We've used all of them since moving here and not ONE has disappointed us. All of them were recommended to us by local acquaintances.
> 
> ...


You could throw in all the examples in the world that support your theory. I think everyone else clearly understands.

So in your specific example, yes, I too would have hired someone to get the raccoons out. But what if they charged you $1000 per critter? 

You see, not all examples end in the same manner. They can all have different outcomes depending your experience. Just as we are all taking "one piece of anecdotal evidence", you are too.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> So why did you even bother to say it has never happened to you ... by your own reasoning it is not relevant!
> Since you have little or no knowledge of the DIY crowd why do you even bother to suggest you know about them?
> 
> I do discuss things with many other DIY people and generally it comes out as a job well done but of course, not always.


Cainvest, I never said I have no DIY knowledge or experience. What I said was I use professionals when I determine it is not worth my time to do it myself. I have done my fair share of DIYing over the years but only things that I liked to do or that I could do even if I didn't want to do them but could not afford to hire someone to do them when I was young and had less income.

I have seen a lot of DIY jobs as I suspect you also have yourself where they jobs were so obviously DIY jobs that they had to be ripped out and replaced by professionals. I had to remove and replace all the baseboards in the house we now live in. Why because the DIYer who did them, did a lousy job. Like butting two pieces at a corner instead of mitering them. I replaced them myself because I consider it an easy job to do and I enjoyed doing it. Yes, I know the satisfaction of a job well done. That doesn't mean I choose to do every job I am capable of doing though.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mortgage u/w said:


> You could throw in all the examples in the world that support your theory. I think everyone else clearly understands.
> 
> So in your specific example, yes, I too would have hired someone to get the raccoons out. But what if they charged you $1000 per critter?
> 
> You see, not all examples end in the same manner. They can all have different outcomes depending your experience. Just as we are all taking "one piece of anecdotal evidence", you are too.


Funny how mine are positive experiences though Mortgage u/w while others are negative experiences. I've never as far as I know been ripped off by any contractor I have ever worked with and yet others seem to be saying that is likely to happen to them if they don't DIY something.

No one tried to ask me for $1000 to remove some *****. Maybe there is a reason why my experiences are the way they are and other people's experiences are the way they are.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> Funny how mine are positive experiences though Mortgage u/w while others are negative experiences. I've never as far as I know been ripped off by any contractor I have ever worked with and yet others seem to be saying that is likely to happen to them if they don't DIY something.
> 
> No one tried to ask me for $1000 to remove some *****. Maybe there is a reason why my experiences are the way they are and other people's experiences are the way they are.


I think your missing the point but it’s ok. 

Bottom line, don’t knock DIYers or dare call them cheap. It’s got nothing to do with saving time or trying to save money. There will always be good and bad experiences in both scenarios whether you do it yourself or not.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Cainvest, I never said I have no DIY knowledge or experience. What I said was I use professionals when I determine it is not worth my time to do it myself. I have done my fair share of DIYing over the years but only things that I liked to do or that I could do even if I didn't want to do them but could not afford to hire someone to do them when I was young and had less income.
> 
> I have seen a lot of DIY jobs as I suspect you also have yourself where they jobs were so obviously DIY jobs that they had to be ripped out and replaced by professionals. I had to remove and replace all the baseboards in the house we now live in. Why because the DIYer who did them, did a lousy job. Like butting two pieces at a corner instead of mitering them. I replaced them myself because I consider it an easy job to do and I enjoyed doing it. Yes, I know the satisfaction of a job well done. That doesn't mean I choose to do every job I am capable of doing though.


Yes both "so called pros" and DIYers are able to do good or bad work. DIY puts most things in your control so generally no surprises afterwards, you know when something is messed up.

The end point being DIY can save you money, time and give you a quality outcome. Whether or not the time spent on the job is worthwhile is up to you.

Oddly enough, I just got back from across the street as my neighbor was having his roof done by a local guy. Got to see his (and his crew's) work first hand and did some "shop talk" with him. He's giving me a quote today.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mortgage u/w said:


> I think your missing the point but it’s ok.
> 
> Bottom line, don’t knock DIYers or dare call them cheap. It’s got nothing to do with saving time or trying to save money. There will always be good and bad experiences in both scenarios whether you do it yourself or not.


If you took the time to look at how this issue developed on the thread Mortgage u/w you would see that it was DIY proponents who attempted to say that it was BETTER to DIY rather than hire someone to do the job for you. I don't think it is me who missed the point at all.

DIY has ONE supposedly clear advantage and that is about MONEY. But in not wanting to admit that, some try to suggest it is about doing a better job and avoiding unscrupulous auto mechanics etc. That's just nonsense, we all know why people DIY some things like oil changes. It isn't because they get enjoyment out of doing an oil change or any great sense of satisfaction at a 'job well done'. It's about money and not spending it.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Every 2 years I have my riding mower serviced. As per my usual procedure, the first time I did, asked around locally and was soon given the name of a local farmer who is also a qualified Small Engine Mechanic and supplements his income with that.

He arrives with a trailer, drives my mower onto it and off he goes. A couple of days later he returns with it and I pay him $100.

For that he changes the oil and filter, lubricates it (which requires dropping the mower bed off to get at some lube points), puts in a new spark plug, sharpens the blade, re-installs and levels the mower bed and finally gives it a nice wash.

I could do it myself and did do that the first time it needed done after I bought it. Go and buy oil, filter, lubricant, grease gun. Drop and remove the mower bed and then re-install and level it and finally give it a wash. Took me a day, several barked knuckles, some cursing and finally came to an end. Did I feel I was a hero for having been able to do it myself? No, I felt I had simply completed a darned crappy chore.

Is my time better spend doing something else for a day? Absolutely. Is my $100 well spent? Absolutely.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> DIY has ONE supposedly clear advantage and that is about MONEY. But in not wanting to admit that, some try to suggest it is about doing a better job and avoiding unscrupulous auto mechanics etc. That's just nonsense, we all know why people DIY some things like oil changes. It isn't because they get enjoyment out of doing an oil change or any great sense of satisfaction at a 'job well done'. It's about money and not spending it.


Sure it can be about money but your blanket statements about it being "only about money" are completely wrong. Those so called nonsense things do happen, as already mentioned in this thread. Can be also about time, pride in the job, using specific products or parts you want, doing it a certain way a shop may not and the list goes on. There are so many things that can come into play, it definitely can be more than just money.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Every 2 years I have my riding mower serviced.


I'm just shocked you have a riding lawn mower ... who actually uses it?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> I'm just shocked you have a riding lawn mower ... who actually uses it?


The 'lawn boy', just like the 'pool boy' uses the pool vacuum cleaner. Why would you ask such a silly question?

As for something being just about money cainvest, tell me what else doing your own oil change is about?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> The 'lawn boy', just like the 'pool boy' uses the pool vacuum cleaner. Why would you ask such a silly question?


Just wondering why the capital expense when lawn services have their own equipment.



Longtimeago said:


> As for something being just about money cainvest, tell me what else doing your own oil change is about?


I have, along with others, given you other reasons for DIY oil changes.

Another DIY example came up yesterday on my dirt bike ride. First ride this year on one of my bikes and had a slight bogging when cracking the throttle. Sure, could have waited and brought it to the shop but instead I adjusted the accel pump timing myself, problem solved. So both time and money saved there.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Just wondering why the capital expense when lawn services have their own equipment.
> 
> I have, along with others, given you other reasons for DIY oil changes.
> 
> Another DIY example came up yesterday on my dirt bike ride. First ride this year on one of my bikes and had a slight bogging when cracking the throttle. Sure, could have waited and brought it to the shop but instead I adjusted the accel pump timing myself, problem solved. So both time and money saved there.


As a modestly philanthropic kind of person cainvest I like to try and help others. I do not employ a lawn service to cut the grass, I employ a local student. Our current student helper (who we employ for other chores as well as lawn mowing) has been working for us for 4 years now. As he is due to graduate from university after this upcoming student year, we will no doubt lose him and have to find another for next year, just as we found him after losing a previous helper 4 years ago.

We do use a local professional lawn service for weed spraying as that requires more uncommon equipment, chemical mixing, PPE, etc. to be done safely and according to specific standards by law.

As for 'other reasons' for DIY oil changes, you may have given some but that doesn't make them true. People do oil changes to save money. End of story.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> As for 'other reasons' for DIY oil changes, you may have given some but that doesn't make them true. People do oil changes to save money. End of story.


Of course money is a factor for DIY and just because you choose to ignore the other reasons for oil changes doesn't make them false. The true end to the story.

Also did a DIY haircut yesterday before my ride, once again both time and money saved. You still waiting for your hair to be cut or did you let the local student give it a shot?


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

DIY haircuts might actually be one of the best examples of saving both time and money. You can cut your hair in about 15 minutes for near $0 (maybe a buck if you count the investment in trimmer, etc)... vs. making an appointment, driving there (gas cost + time), sitting in the waiting area, getting the haircut, paying the bill (min. $25 plus tip), and then driving home.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

nathan79 said:


> DIY haircuts might actually be one of the best examples of saving both time and money.


Yeah, let's take a picture of the DIY haircut and put it beside a picture of the salon haircut.

Whoops.

ltr


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, let's take a picture of the DIY haircut and put it beside a picture of the salon haircut.
> 
> Whoops.
> 
> ltr


lol, if you can't figure out how to use a hair trimmer properly then please go to a barber.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

cainvest said:


> lol, if you can't figure out how to use a hair trimmer properly then please go to a barber.


Yep, for sure, I agree. Those that enjoy a buzz cut, then a hair trimmer works great. 

For those that normally get an actual "hair cut" - not so much.

ltr


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

It depends on the person, their hairstyle and their skills with a trimmer and scissors. A helper (spouse, etc) could also make the difference between a poor job and one that looks good.

There's also genetics to consider... for a lot of us guys over 30, there's noticeably less hair that needs to be cut. No amount of "salon styling" will hide that fact, and will often have the unintended consequence of making it look even worse.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

nathan79 said:


> for a lot of us guys over 30, there's noticeably less hair that needs to be cut. No amount of "salon styling" will hide that fact, and will often have the unintended consequence of making it look even worse.


Yeah, I can't really agree, along with most everyone else. I can always tell when someone is doing their own hair. Embarrassing to say the least - they just don't know it.

Anyway, two days ago my hairdresser phoned me and said they were finally opening up, and asked if I would like an appointment. Of course I would. She went over all the COVID-19 requirements set out by the government, and next week I will be getting my first haircut in about 5 months. 

Yep, I'm over over 30, and in fact, I'm in the age 70 crowd, but I still don't want to look like a homeless person.

I will look so much better than anyone here at CMF who thinks they can cut their own hair.

ltr


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

like_to_retire said:


> I will look so much better than anyone here at CMF who thinks they can cut their own hair.


No doubt due to your stunning good looks though, nice hair is just a bonus right?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

nathan79 said:


> It depends on the person, their hairstyle and their skills with a trimmer and scissors. A helper (spouse, etc) could also make the difference between a poor job and one that looks good.
> 
> There's also genetics to consider... for a lot of us guys over 30, there's noticeably less hair that needs to be cut. No amount of "salon styling" will hide that fact, and will often have the unintended consequence of making it look even worse.


You get the hang of using trimmers after a while and in the beginning a helper is a plus or at least someone that'll tell you the truth lol. I've always liked short hair, kind of a long military cut so it's super easy for me to do.

Also going to a hairdresser doesn't mean you'll walk out being happy or the "new style" you wanted looks good to you. Hear that much, much more from women than men though. One male friend had his barber retire and went to a new place ... wow, that was a mistake.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> You really don't get it do you cainvest. The money goes in the bank. OK, where does the time go? Your assumption remains that the money is worth more than your time. That means you are putting a $ value on your time. So how much is it? $100 an hour, $1000 a day, how much? At what number will you decide that your time is worth more than the money?


I saved $3,000 for 2 days of work. Plus I enjoy doing my own projects and I'm fit enough to spend a day on the roof without being sore the next day. Therefore, $3,000 in my pocket is a win for me. Others might prefer to pay someone to shingle their house and that's perfectly fine.



> Last year, one of my sons was talking to me about replacing the deck boards on their backyard deck. The frame was good, he just wanted to rip up the old deck boards and replace them. He had a quote for around $5k (plus new board cost) to do it. He was thinking of doing it himself instead. I asked him how many days he figured it would take him to pry screwed down deck boards up with a crowbar, etc. There is no easy and quick way to remove screwed down decking. Then of course you have to have someway to dispose of the old boards; buy and transport the new boards; and finally, cut and install the new boards. Given the size of his deck, I estimated it would take him a good 7 full days to do all of that. The professionals on the other hand would have 2 people who would rip the old boards off and throw them in their truck in a day. They would then arrive the second day with the new boards on their truck and probably be finished installing them by the end of the third day, job done.
> 
> So do the math, if they do it in 3 days for $5k that's $1666 per day for 2 people. Even if he could do it in 6 days (double the time for 2 people) and even ignoring his cost to get rid of the old boards, have the new boards delivered and the sheer hard physical labour of doing it himself, that would mean he valued his own time at $833 per day. That's a significant number for most people and if that is all you looked at you could conclude it was worth the time and effort to do it yourself.
> 
> ...


I could afford to pay someone too. But, if it's just pulling up deck boards and replacing them that's just a day for me, or 2 days if it's a very large deck.

As to family time...that's covered too. Suppose I help my brother build a deck or replace a roof. The family gathers and brings food. A few of us do the work while those who are unskilled, too young, or who shouldn't be on a roof help out by fetching tools, cleaning up, watching the kids, making lunch, etc. My elderly parents relax on a lawn chair in the shade. So, there's is no lost weekend when we take on a project, in fact, it's the opposite. A project is a chance for a family gathering.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

People can self-justify anything and that is what many here are doing with suggestions like DIY haircuts or oil changes. I have no problem with that, but when it then moves on to comments like, "_Also going to a hairdresser doesn't mean you'll walk out being happy or the "new style" you wanted looks good to you._", that's when people have moved from simply self-justifying what they do, to implying what they do is BETTER than the alternative.

If someone wants to do a DIY haircut that's fine, go ahead but do NOT try to suggest you will do a better job. I do not think there is any question as to which way results in more obvious bad haircuts.

As it happens, my wife has her first appointment with her hair STYLIST on Wednesday. Suggesting to her that she DIY it or have me DIY it for her would be met with gales of laughter or perhaps a look of horror.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> People can self-justify anything and that is what many here are doing with suggestions like DIY haircuts or oil changes. I have no problem with that, but when it then moves on to comments like, "_Also going to a hairdresser doesn't mean you'll walk out being happy or the "new style" you wanted looks good to you._", that's when people have moved from simply self-justifying what they do, to implying what they do is BETTER than the alternative.
> 
> If someone wants to do a DIY haircut that's fine, go ahead but do NOT try to suggest you will do a better job. I do not think there is any question as to which way results in more obvious bad haircuts.


Never suggested DIY was better, you're the one making that statement. Just stating a fact that someone going to a hairdresser/barber may not always end up happy with the result.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Never suggested DIY was better, you're the one making that statement. Just stating a fact that someone going to a hairdresser/barber may not always end up happy with the result.


You state one side and conveniently ignore the other side. THAT is in fact implying your way is better.

Yes, a hairdresser may give you a bad cut but why don't you balance your 'statement of fact' by adding that it is however less likely than a DIYer giving themselves a bad cut. Or would you like to try and argue that a DIY haircut is LESS likely to result in a bad cut?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> You state one side and conveniently ignore the other side. THAT is in fact implying your way is better.
> 
> Yes, a hairdresser may give you a bad cut but why don't you balance your 'statement of fact' by adding that it is however less likely than a DIYer giving themselves a bad cut. Or would you like to try and argue that a DIY haircut is LESS likely to result in a bad cut?


Nice try but no, how'd I ignore the other side?
Both can have positive and/or negative outcomes. As to the percentages, fill your boots if you want to figure that one out.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Nice try but no, how'd I ignore the other side?
> Both can have positive and/or negative outcomes. As to the percentages, fill your boots if you want to figure that one out.


Oh come on cainvest. Do you really want to try and say it isn't obvious which way would result in more poor haircuts? Do you really need some statistical study to tell you the answer to that question? Now you are simply trying to deny the obvious.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Oh come on cainvest. Do you really want to try and say it isn't obvious which way would result in more poor haircuts? Do you really need some statistical study to tell you the answer to that question? Now you are simply trying to deny the obvious.


I don't really care about the stats, all I need to know is this DIY saves me both time and money.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Longtimeago, I feel you are stereotyping people who DIY as incompetent folks and automatically assume paying someone guarantees better results. This is completely false. And its not only about saving money - I think that's been debated and proved to be false as well.
I could go on to provide many more examples....but you'll just justify it with your own example and ignore mine.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Everyone does what they feel makes sense for them. No one is imposing you to change your ways.....but please do not make inaccurate assumptions.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> I don't really care about the stats, all I need to know is this DIY saves me both time and money.


I guess that means you couldn't find a way to dispute that DIY will result in more bad haircuts.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mortgage u/w said:


> Longtimeago, I feel you are stereotyping people who DIY as incompetent folks and automatically assume paying someone guarantees better results. This is completely false. And its not only about saving money - I think that's been debated and proved to be false as well.
> I could go on to provide many more examples....but you'll just justify it with your own example and ignore mine.
> We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Everyone does what they feel makes sense for them. No one is imposing you to change your ways.....but please do not make inaccurate assumptions.


Umm, no, I do not think I am stereotyping DIY people Mortgage u/w. If you read this latest DIY haircut exchange of comments I think it is quite clear what I am saying. Some DIYers may do a good job and some may not, I am not suggesting all fall into the 'may not' category at all.

But what I am saying is if someone wants to say, 'you could get a bad haircut from a hairdresser', then it is fair to say that you could get a bad haircut from a DIY job and that the PROBABILITY of which will result in more bad haircuts should be quite obvious to anyone with half a brain. Or as I asked cainvest and I will ask you now, do you want to try and dispute that?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> I guess that means you couldn't find a way to dispute that DIY will result in more bad haircuts.


lmao, why would I look ... I know it works for out great me.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> But what I am saying is if someone wants to say, 'you could get a bad haircut from a hairdresser', then it is fair to say that you could get a bad haircut from a DIY job and that the PROBABILITY of which will result in more bad haircuts should be quite obvious to anyone with half a brain. Or as I asked cainvest and I will ask you now, do you want to try and dispute that?


I dispute that by saying that people that continue to use a trimmer to cut their their own hair are happy with the result.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> Last year, one of my sons was talking to me about replacing the deck boards on their backyard deck. The frame was good, he just wanted to rip up the old deck boards and replace them. He had a quote for around $5k (plus new board cost) to do it. He was thinking of doing it himself instead. I asked him how many days he figured it would take him to pry screwed down deck boards up with a crowbar, etc. There is no easy and quick way to remove screwed down decking.


Yes there is. Use a drill. It would take 2 -4 hours. I've done it several times.



> Then of course you have to have someway to dispose of the old boards


Put them by the road...someone will come by and take them. I have a 100% success rate using that method.



> buy and transport the new boards; and finally, cut and install the new boards. Given the size of his deck, I estimated it would take him a good 7 full days to do all of that.


Laying new boards on existing framing is easy. Even an average DIYer can do that quickly. I just built a 12'x12' deck. Screwing down the decking took 2 hours.



> So do the math, if they do it in 3 days for $5k that's $1666 per day for 2 people. Even if he could do it in 6 days (double the time for 2 people) and even ignoring his cost to get rid of the old boards, have the new boards delivered and the sheer hard physical labour of doing it himself, that would mean he valued his own time at $833 per day. That's a significant number for most people and if that is all you looked at you could conclude it was worth the time and effort to do it yourself.


The math for me is that it's probably 2 days of work, $5000 saved. That's over $300 an hour tax free. Screwing down deck boards is not sheer hard physical labour...you're just putting in screws. My non-handy spouse helps me and she has no experience with that type of work.



> But what about the time? If he could do it in 6 days, that really means 3 weekends. What is the value of 3 weekends that you lose? Can you put a dollar value on that? It's like 'missed opportunity cost' Here is how you have to think about that...
> 
> I'd rather have the 3 weekends than the $5k savings. The only reason to not do so for me would be if I couldn't afford the $5k or I was just a cheapskate.​I'd rather have the 3 weekends than the $5k savings. The only reason to not do so for me would be if I couldn't afford the $5k or I was just a cheapskate.


Invite a couple friends and some family over. Spend a few hours laying deck boards on a Saturday and then fire up the barbeque, feed everyone, and have a couple cold ones. 3 "lost" weekends turn into a nice get together with the satisfaction of a job well done.



> My son had the professionals do it by the way. He could afford it.


I could have afforded to have someone build my deck too. But I enjoy doing my own projects, I take pride in my work, and I really like the fact that 2 days of doing something fun saves me $2000 - $3000.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Feels like learned helplessness is the problem here.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

andrewf said:


> Feels like learned helplessness is the problem here.


It could be that or it could be that some people think that manual or physical labour is beneath them.

I take pride in my DIY skills...it's not just money saved, it's the satisfaction of a job well done. I can show people our new deck or our new ensuite and after they tell us how nice it looks I can proudly say "I did ALL of that myself".


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

DIY haircut have some differences from DIY vehicle maint

First it's harder to cut your own hair than work on your own vehicle. Even hair cutting pros I know have another pro do their hair (I suppose likely cut each other as a trade/favour) Does the Honda mechanic take his Toyota to the Toyota dealer for routine maint? I doubt it

Second you are present for the entire haircut performance by the nature of it being attached to your head. They have incentive to provide whatever extra service, smile or rub they can for the tip. You aren't even permitted to witness the mechanic and you pay him by the job regardless if he cuts corners to finish it in half the time

There is no incentive for a mechanic to do the simple extra things that any DIY will. Pro mechs mess up all the time just because the incentive is to be fast and they can always make an excuse if they mess up because non-DIY vehicle owners likely won't know a head gasket from an axle boot

Also I estimate I've saved $5k on haircuts not to mention the time and aerodynamic gains. Efficiency


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I am a huge believe in MYOB. If someone wants to cut their own hair, change their vehicle oil, do repairs and painting around the house...whatever who am I to even care let alone try to discern their motivation or calculate their savings or lack thereof.

Not my business. Don't care. don't need to know. Don't need to judge them or their motivations. Good luck to them. I have no doubt that many will be very successful and that it will be viewed by them as a good experience. Each to his own.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Prairie Guy said:


> Yes there is. Use a drill. It would take 2 -4 hours. I've done it several times.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Umm, not all decks are created equal Prairie Guy. First of all, a simple 12X12' platform is not the kind of deck I am referring to. That might satisfy you and all you have to do is buy some 12' boards and screw them down. 

Take a look at the first two pictures here: Here Comes the Sun: 4 Tips for a Beautiful Deck This Summer - BeautyHarmonyLife
The first is about the size of my son's deck and the second is like the more modern style of the deck only his is integrated to one side of his pool vs. the photo showing a deck integrating around a large tree.

Now tell me how you would remove the boards with a drill when in fact screws that have been in for years often will simply not unscrew and often trying to do so simply results in the screw heads breaking off leaving the screw still in the wood but headless. The ONLY way to remove the boards is to use a crowbar to lever them off and then go back and remove all the screws (about half of them) that were left in the studs rather than pulled up with the deck boards.

Then tell me how quickly you could put the new boards on when the boards are laid on the diagonal, meaning each has to be cut to size. My own deck is about 5 metres x 8 metres (16x26') and is on 3 levels with all 3 levels laid in a different diagonal to the adjacent level. All the outside edges of the levels have a 'frame' (like a picture frame) board around them so that you do not see any cut board ends. Here is a video of what I call a deck and while you can and I have done such decks as a DIY project, you don't do them in 2 days.





As for the $5k I mentioned, that was not including new decking, only the labour and transportation to remove the old and put on the new. My 6-7 day estimate to DIY it, is far from unreasonable. So yes, you could DIY it and save money but the real issue is how do you want to spend your time. You may think it is just a backyard barbecue with family or friends to replace some deck boards but I can assure you that that is not the case with all decks. Your 12x12' simple little platform yes, decks like the above, no.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

like_to_retire said:


> Anyway, two days ago my hairdresser phoned me and said they were finally opening up, and asked if I would like an appointment. Of course I would. She went over all the COVID-19 requirements set out by the government, and next week I will be getting my first haircut in about 5 months.
> 
> Yep, I'm over over 30, and in fact, I'm in the age 70 crowd, but I still don't want to look like a homeless person.


.

OK, just returned from getting my first haircut after a hiatus of about 5 months.

Man, I look good. In fact, I look around at all you guys and girls with your shaggy gray mops and think you better make an appointment pretty soon before the next wave shuts all the hair salons back down.  If not, don't hold out your hands, because someone will think you're homeless and will put a few quarters in it...........

ltr


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

like_to_retire said:


> .
> 
> OK, just returned from getting my first haircut after a hiatus of about 5 months.
> 
> Man, I look good.


I'll be watching for your picture on the cover of GQ.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> So yes, you could DIY it and save money but the real issue is how do you want to spend your time.


How's that go again .. penny saved is a penny earned.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Don't you guys ever give up?


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> Umm, not all decks are created equal Prairie Guy. First of all, a simple 12X12' platform is not the kind of deck I am referring to. That might satisfy you and all you have to do is buy some 12' boards and screw them down.


It's a little more than a platform of 12' boards screwed down. It's just one part of a 2 level 650 square foot deck and is sized specifically to fit a gazebo that's 139" square. 



> Take a look at the first two pictures here: Here Comes the Sun: 4 Tips for a Beautiful Deck This Summer - BeautyHarmonyLife
> The first is about the size of my son's deck and the second is like the more modern style of the deck only his is integrated to one side of his pool vs. the photo showing a deck integrating around a large tree.
> 
> Now tell me how you would remove the boards with a drill when in fact screws that have been in for years often will simply not unscrew and often trying to do so simply results in the screw heads breaking off leaving the screw still in the wood but headless. The ONLY way to remove the boards is to use a crowbar to lever them off and then go back and remove all the screws (about half of them) that were left in the studs rather than pulled up with the deck boards.


A deck that big would take me and 2 others a half day to rip apart.



> Then tell me how quickly you could put the new boards on when the boards are laid on the diagonal, meaning each has to be cut to size.


Diagonal isn't hard, I've done it several times. You run the boards a little long then cut off with a saw.



> My own deck is about 5 metres x 8 metres (16x26') and is on 3 levels with all 3 levels laid in a different diagonal to the adjacent level. All the outside edges of the levels have a 'frame' (like a picture frame) board around them so that you do not see any cut board ends.


I do the same...picture framing and sometimes a board in the middle for longer spans (at GF cottage for a 24 foot span) so there is not butt joints. I have 3 adjoining decks totaling 650 sq ft. all with picture framing and no end cuts.



> As for the $5k I mentioned, that was not including new decking, only the labour and transportation to remove the old and put on the new. My 6-7 day estimate to DIY it, is far from unreasonable. So yes, you could DIY it and save money but the real issue is how do you want to spend your time. You may think it is just a backyard barbecue with family or friends to replace some deck boards but I can assure you that that is not the case with all decks. Your 12x12' simple little platform yes, decks like the above, no.


As stated earlier, I have more than a simple 12x12 platform. My point was that on that one section which I just added it only took me 2 hours to lay the deck boards. A larger deck of up to 600 sq ft would take me a day to lay the deck boards....I'm talking about just laying the deck boards, not building the framing.

I'm assuming you don't know very many people with DIY skills or you wouldn't be so skeptical of what can be done. I shingled my house 2 weeks ago...1300 square feet of roof...bungalow, not steep. It took me and a friend 3 hours to rip off the old roof, pull nails, and lay down water barrier. The next day I started laying shingles alone at 8:00 AM, my brother and his wife came to help at 11:00. We worked until 5:00 and it was done.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Prairie Guy said:


> It's a little more than a platform of 12' boards screwed down. It's just one part of a 2 level 650 square foot deck and is sized specifically to fit a gazebo that's 139" square.
> 
> 
> A deck that big would take me and 2 others a half day to rip apart.
> ...


I've been building decks since I was 16 and helped my Father build a deck onto our cottage. Over the years I have built over a dozen decks for myself and for friends and family. While living in the UK, I fell into a part time job designing and selling decks. Over 4 years I designed and sold perhaps 200 decks. While designing decks is easy for me and building them is something I already had experience with, nevertheless, the professionals I worked with still taught me a lot more about decks than I already knew.

DIY is all about saving money. I have no problem with anyone who wants to do that but I take exception to the belief that DIYers can ALL do as well as the professionals in ANY example of DIYing, whether it be decks, haircuts, roofing or whatever.

If I were to do my own oil change on a car I would say I was a novice DIYer in that regard. But I can read and follow instructions and have no doubt I could do an oil and filter change satisfactorily. When it comes to decks, I would say I would fall near the professional end of the DIY through Professional spectrum and it IS a spectrum. Looking at a deck built by a DIY novice deck builder there is no doubt at all that you would be able to see it was done by a DIY novice. Looking at a deck built by a professional it would also be quite obvious that it was built either by a very experienced and therefore near professional, or by an actual professional. I don't think anyone can question the veracity of that. If you looked at 100 decks you would have no problem picking out which were done by the average DIYer vs. a professional. It is ONLY those done by the 'top end' of DIYers that you would be unable to say were definitely built by a DIYer. That would represent what percentage of DIY deck builders do you think? 10%? 50%? I would suggest to you it is certainly not a majority of DIYers. The majority will build a deck that you can tell was built by a DIYer.

So you are wrong in thinking I 'don't know very many people with DIY skills'. I know as many as anyone else probably does but I also know that MOST aren't as good as they THINK they are and that very few can do as good a job as a professional can. Simple common sense should tell us that the word 'professional' means what it means.

Do whatever you want as a DIYer to save money. Nothing wrong with that but do not think that everything you do as a DIYer will be as good as if it were done by a professional and that MORE IMPORTANTLY when you choose to DIY something, that it does not come at some other cost such as a poorer job or lost time. At my age in life, every day lost actually matters to me. Or look at it this way, I have more money than time now. When I was 30, that was absolutely the other way around and I wouldn't even have thought about hiring someone to build a deck, why would I, I could 'do it myself' for less cost. The cost for me to do it now though Prairie Guy is far too high a cost for me to be willing to pay. Not a cost in $, a cost in time.

Time is one thing you cannot bank. Money is easy to replace, time is irreplaceable.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

agent99 said:


> Don't you guys ever give up?


Evidently not


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> DIY is all about saving money. I have no problem with anyone who wants to do that but I take exception to the belief that DIYers can ALL do as well as the professionals in ANY example of DIYing, whether it be decks, haircuts, roofing or whatever.


My roofing skills are professional level. My deck building skills are highly competent DIY...but that's good enough for me.



> The majority will build a deck that you can tell was built by a DIYer.


I agree.



> Do whatever you want as a DIYer to save money. Nothing wrong with that but do not think that everything you do as a DIYer will be as good as if it were done by a professional and that MORE IMPORTANTLY when you choose to DIY something, that it does not come at some other cost such as a poorer job or lost time. At my age in life, every day lost actually matters to me. Or look at it this way, I have more money than time now. When I was 30, that was absolutely the other way around and I wouldn't even have thought about hiring someone to build a deck, why would I, I could 'do it myself' for less cost. The cost for me to do it now though Prairie Guy is far too high a cost for me to be willing to pay. Not a cost in $, a cost in time.
> 
> Time is one thing you cannot bank. Money is easy to replace, time is irreplaceable.


I enjoy building decks and DIY is one of my hobbies so it's not "lost time" for me. I'm also retired and can build at my leisure rather than cramming it into time off from work.

But I get your point as there are some jobs I can do but choose to pay someone else to do them. I shingled my house because it's a low slope bungalow that I knew could be done easily and quickly. There was some rotted decking to replace and I was also planning on removing some sheathing to gain access to the attic to deal with an exhaust fan duct that would have been almost impossible to get at from inside as it was so close the low edge of the roof. After the roof was stripped I was able to take care of this at my leisure.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Found out oil changes for my car have risen from $58.88 (pre-pandemic) to $79.99 now.
reminded me of this thread.

I‘ve Never Done an oil change on my current vehicle. Picked up 2 jugs of synthetic Costco Kirkland oil for $50 (Gets good reviews) and a filter for $10. So it should cost me $35.

i have a feeling the frustration won’t be worth the $50 savings. Lol


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Money172375 said:


> Found out oil changes for my car have risen from $58.88 (pre-pandemic) to $79.99 now.
> reminded me of this thread.
> 
> I‘ve Never Done an oil change on my current vehicle. Picked up 2 jugs of synthetic Costco Kirkland oil for $50 (Gets good reviews) and a filter for $10. So it should cost me $35.
> ...


You also need a socket set and an oil filter tool and a large oil change pan to catch the old oil.

Then you need to dispose of the old oil properly.

I did it my whole life until I got around age 65 and gave up and decided to simply pay whatever they charge.

ltr


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

like_to_retire said:


> You also need a socket set and an oil filter tool and a large oil change pan to catch the old oil.


You can use a socket on some oil filters. 

Princess Auto has a nice oil drain pan with pour spout.








15 Litre Oil Drain Pan | Princess Auto


15 Litre Oil Drain Pan




www.princessauto.com







like_to_retire said:


> Then you need to dispose of the old oil properly.


Many recycle depots take oil.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

like_to_retire said:


> You also need a socket set and an oil filter tool and a large oil change pan to catch the old oil.
> 
> Then you need to dispose of the old oil properly.
> 
> ...


Yes, I did for them about 20 years, but gave it up 6 years ago. Still have all the necessary tools.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Money172375 said:


> Yes, I did for them about 20 years, but gave it up 6 years ago. Still have all the necessary tools.


OK good. Put those tools away and get your wallet out. Then relax on the couch because you've worked hard enough through your life..

ltr


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