# Some diet resources required



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I'm taking a good look at my diet and trying to:

a) figure out what I'm eating now
b) make some changes to increase protein (I don't think I'm not getting enough, but I'm not 100% sure) and reduce bread consumption (but not reduce carbohydrates necessarily).

The problem is that I don't know much about food types/composition so if someone says I need to eat more proteins or eat grains instead of processed breads, I don't know how to do that. 

I know some of you are into the diet/food thing, so I was wondering if anyone has recommendations for websites or books with the following info (or anything else you think might be useful):

1) How to determine what I'm eating now - ie if I track my intake for a week, I'd like to be able to know what percent is carbs, how much protein I'm eating each day etc.

2) Explanations and examples of different food types ie if I want more proteins - what kind of foods should I eat?

3) Actual food or recipe suggestions. So for example if I want to eat more protein at breakfast and no bread (unthinkable for me), what exactly should I eat?


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I like My Fitness Pal for tracking. It has both a website (myfitnesspal.com) as well as apps for iOS and Android. The apps are especially handy because they have a barcode scanning feature so if you're eating something packaged, you can just scan the barcode and it will recognize it - so all you need to do is put in how much of it you ate. 

Proteins = meat, beans, dairy, nuts
Carbs = sugars, grains (eg breads, cereals, etc), some veggies
Fats = nuts, oils
Fibre (this is a carb, but indigestible and helps your regularity) = veggies, whole grains (e.g. whole wheat bread)

There's obviously more to it than this, but this gives you the gist of it. The vast majority of foods are actually a combination of these macronutrients (e.g. peanut butter contains protein from the nuts, fat from the nuts & oil, and carbs from the sugar).


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Thanks for the info Spudd - I'll check out that site.



Spudd said:


> The apps are especially handy because they have a barcode scanning feature so if you're eating something packaged, you can just scan the barcode and it will recognize it - so all you need to do is put in how much of it you ate.


That would be convenient for those 7-11 meals. 



Spudd said:


> The vast majority of foods are actually a combination of these macronutrients (e.g. peanut butter contains protein from the nuts, fat from the nuts & oil, and carbs from the sugar).


Yeah, good point that most foods aren't in just one category. I guess that's where the education part comes in.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

My Fitness Pal gets a lot of good reviews. Other ones to check out: 

1. I've used Livestrong off and on when monitoring my diet and exercise; of course the shine has recently left the Livestrong name but the app and website are still pretty good ;-) 
2. Nutrimirror (http://www.nutrimirror.com) gets a lot of rave reviews from users.

The main hassle I've found with these kinds of sites is that if you do your own cooking and don't buy many prepackaged foods, it's not very easy or practical to use these apps. You can enter recipes and portions manually, but it takes a while, and I usually give up and just choose something from the database that seems close to what I made. 

In general, you have to understand that these apps and websites can give you only a general approximation: calorie counts are usually off by 20-50%, and there are similar ranges of inaccuracy for nutrients. You can find data for an apple, for example, but not all apples are the same: some are big, some are small, and all the nutrient and calorie information will vary by size and in some cases the variety of apple. And unless you weigh your portion sizes, your chances of accuracy are slim. I don't think precision is important in this stuff; mainly you just need ballpark estimates, and that's what the apps and websites will give you.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

I agree, My Fitness Pal is perfect for tracking not only calories but protein, carbs, vitamin and mineral intake. Spark People is another very similar site but I'm not sure they have the barcode reader yet or not. My husband found the barcode reader on My Fitness Pal very convenient.

Good luck and let us know what you decide. I'm waiting for a family issue to be done with soon then I plan to start tracking my food intake similar to what you are hoping to do.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Four Pillars said:


> 3) Actual food or recipe suggestions. So for example if I want to eat more protein at breakfast and no bread (unthinkable for me), what exactly should I eat?


If (as you say) you want to reduce bread but not necessarily carbohydrates, is your motivation to avoid gluten or is it to avoid processed simple carbs? If you want to avoid gluten that's one thing; if you want to avoid processed carbs you can eat whole wheat bread (easy to make your own with about 7 minutes of total effort, no bread machine required; look up my recipe in the recipes thread). 

You could have eggs at breakfast to increase protein; if you want to keep calories down you could leave out the yolks. The low-carb folks have lots of yummy high-protein breakfasts that you could try, but some of them involve processed meats, which I try to avoid due to the suspected links to cancer, which of course are unproven but there are correlations. There are so many unprocessed alternatives that I don't feel like taking the risk.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Thanks for the comments - they are all very good.

Brad - I'm not planning to measure and count every bit of food I eat forever, but I'm hoping that if I do it for a while and make use of resources such as food websites, I'll learn more about food and get a better 'feel' for if I'm eating a proper diet.

I really don't know much now, so it would be a good way to learn, even if it's not that accurate.

As for motivation - I'm not trying to avoid gluten or calories. I do a lot of exercise/training and I need to learn more about eating in order to prepare better for workouts and just as importantly, be able to recover from workouts. 

Regarding the bread - I spoke to a nutrionist yesterday and she was the one who suggested that I avoid all breads (unless before or just after big workouts) and eat grains and get carbs in other ways. She also mentioned that things like whole wheat bread are better than white bread. I'm not sure how valid that advice is since a lot of people including nutritionists get their own biases going on certain foods.

That said I do eat a lot of white bread and can see the merits of reducing bread consumption on the merits of balance alone. Switching to whole wheat etc is an easy improvement as well.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

One thing I've done lately to increase protein in my diet is to make a bean dish once a week. Bean curries, bean soups, chili heavy on beans (you can still include beef/chicken for flavour), bean salads. I have it for lunch a few times a week. I like it because of the high satiety factor to last me from lunch to when I get home for dinner, which can sometimes be a long stretch.

I also like greek yogurt, which is relatively high in protein and pretty healthy (especially if you can go with unsweetened yogurt with fresh fruit/nuts).


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

White bread is good to avoid for lots of reasons; you get a lot more bang for your nutritional buck from whole wheat, not to mention a lot more flavour. The problem is that commercial bakeries can sell bread as "whole wheat" even if it contains only a small portion of it. That's one reason why I make my own: I know exactly how much whole wheat goes into my bread (it's not 100%, as I find that to be too heavy, and I like a good crust). 

Other grains are good, though: I love steel-cut oats for breakfast, although you need to soak them the night before unless you have time to cook them for 45 minutes in the morning (or you can use a rice cooker). Quinoa has lots of nutrients and some protein. We use a lot of spelt (farro) for salads and even as a crust for savoury pies. 

I would love to get most of my protein from beans, but my girlfriend reacts badly to beans (even with Beano added) so we can only eat them rarely. Like andrewf I eat Greek yogurt with fruit and nuts. In general we don't need much protein; here's what the Harvard School of Public Health has to say:

"There is no one-size-fits-all answer to that question, and research on the topic is still emerging. The Institute of Medicine recommends that adults get a minimum of 0.8 grams of protein for every kilogram of body weight per day—that’s about 58 grams for a 160 pound adult. In the U.S., adults get an average of 15 percent of their calories from protein; for a person who requires a 2,000-calorie-per-day-diet, that’s about 75 grams of protein. In healthy people, increasing protein intake to 20 to 25 percent of calories can reduce the risk of heart disease, if the extra protein replaces refined carbohydrates, such as white bread, white rice, or sugary drinks. Higher protein diets can also be beneficial for weight loss, in conjunction with a reduced calorie diet, although long-term evidence of their effectiveness is wanting.

For people in good health, consuming 20 to 25 percent of calories from protein won’t harm the kidneys. For people with diabetes or early-stage kidney disease, however, the American Diabetes Association recommends limiting protein intake to 0.8 to 1.0 gram of protein per kilogram of body weight (roughly 10 percent of energy intake), since this may help improve kidney function; in later stage kidney disease, sticking to the 0.8 grams per kilogram minimum is advisable. Consult a doctor or a registered dietitian for individualized protein recommendations."


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## cedebe (Feb 1, 2012)

I try to load up on protein in the morning so I do the following...

- have a protein beverage.. nothing fancy, just brown rice protein powder mixed with a bit of water and almond milk
- have one of three breakfast spreads* on one piece of Finn Crisp bread and one piece of Ryvita crisp bread (wheat-free and low calorie)

* I rotate the breakfast spreads weekly. One is a mock tuna made with chick peas, one is lentil-based, and the 3rd is just egg salad. If either the tuna or the lentil spread sounds appealing, I can post the recipe.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

For the 2 million years of our existence, there were no carbs..... fruit, grains.... nada. We ate critters. Saturated fat and protein. Go 'paleo'!


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I agree with myfitnesspal. I have been using it for over a year now, and it has helped me lose over 60 lbs. it's great for tracking. I don't track too carefully, bu it gives me an idea if I am way over or nder in an area. I do recommend just for an awareness standpoint to measure out and track your food quite tightly. I was really amazed at what was a serving size, and what I was actually eating. It helped me gage my quantities. I still measure when I am feeling I am straying.

My goal was and still weight loss, and I worked with a medical team that specializes in weight loss and nutrition. So what I do may not be right for you. 

I aim for much higher protein as I found it kept me fuller, and to be honest he less refined carbs I ate, the less I want them. My diet is about 35% protein, and I am not working out much if any at all right now. 

Things I tend to eat a lot of which have protein include eggs, egg whites, lean meats, and sometimes not as lean meats, Greek yogurt, which actually has become my replacement for sour cream , mayonnaise, dips, etc, beans, and chickpeas. I have been makin hummus, and roasted chickpeas, or roasted kidney beans, they are crunchy like nuts. It's, and really good. 

I have tried to reduce my white flour and refined sugars in take by switching to whole wheat, and brown rice. I also eat a lot of steel cut oats. I don't limit myself to fruits and veggies, and this has been my thing to increase my intake again. My oal is to become a leaner, bu not totally clean eater. I like sweets a little too much to give them up. 

You can also check out cleaneatingmag.com. Hey have great ideas for recipes ha are healhy, and they are quite tasty.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

steve41 said:


> For the 2 million years of our existence, there were no carbs..... fruit, grains.... nada. We ate critters. Saturated fat and protein. Go 'paleo'!


During most of that time, people also involuntarily fasted for days or even weeks because critters aren't always easy to catch. The role of fasting in our evolutionary history is responsible for the current popularity of fasting diets, but even though fasting was a key feature of true paleo diets you don't see a ton of support for it among the paleo crowd. I think this is because advocates of the paleo diet are drawn to it primarily because they like to eat meat, and the paleo diet provides a logical argument to support their desire to eat meat. And through confirmation bias they assemble hundreds of studies and anecdotes to support the efficacy of the paleo diet, while rejecting evidence to the contrary as "bad science."

You can see similar confirmation biases in most other diet movements: low fat, low carb, Mediterranean, Okinawan, whatever. The "Blue Zone" studies, which look at the populations around the world with the highest proportion of individuals over the age of 100, find that in all those places people live on diets of mostly grains, vegetables, and fruit, with very little meat. 

I think the ultimate take-home message when you look at all of these diets and their supporting evidence is this: humans as a species are adaptable and can draw nutrients and calories from a wide range of foods. But individual humans vary widely in their tolerances and responses to different foods. That's how you can have someone like Karen, who's a diabetic, achieving impressive results in her bloodwork by eating a very low-carb diet rich in protein and fat, while my friend Pierrick, who's not a diabetic, gets scolded by his doctor every time he comes back from France because his cholesterol and blood pressure go through the roof. And it's not because he's eating more baguettes -- he keeps a food diary, and the only differences is that in France he's eating more foie gras, meat, and cheese.

My guess is that almost any diet, as long as it's not too extreme and unvaried, is likely to work for most people. But I think it's important to experiment, because we're all different. Eventually we'll probably be able to use genetic tests to give us clues to the diets that are most likely to work for us individually: what works best for me won't work best for you.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

steve41 said:


> For the 2 million years of our existence, there were no carbs..... fruit, grains.... nada. We ate critters. Saturated fat and protein. Go 'paleo'!


Agreed- I've been dabbling in nutritional studies for over 20 years and my personal conclusions are in favour of the hunter-gatherer diets; we have not evolved much from a biochemical standpoint since we became **** Sapiens- it should therefore follow that our optimal diet be that of our direct forebears. Two books that shed a lot of light on this are:
The Palaeolithic Prescription, 
http://www.amazon.com/The-Paleolithic-Prescription-Program-Exercise/dp/0060916354
and Wheat Belly.
http://www.amazon.com/Wheat-Belly-Lose-Weight-Health/dp/1609611543

I've heard that Against the Grain is also very good but have yet to read it.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

indexxx said:


> we have not evolved much from a biochemical standpoint since we became **** Sapiens- it should therefore follow that our optimal diet be that of our direct forebears.


While I agree that this makes perfect intuitive sense, there are a few problems with this argument:

1. Evolution occurs in the context of an environment, and today's living environment bears little resemblance to that of our forbears. How can we be sure a diet that served us well under that environment will serve us under this one?

2. While some people lived into their 90s even in prehistoric times, in general the average life expectancy back then was less than half what it is today. That's not due to diet, but rather because of factors such as diseases, infections, and accidents. But the point is that most prehistoric people didn't live long enough to develop the conditions that tend to occur increasingly after age 40, like heart disease, cancer, and Type 2 diabetes. So those of us following a paleo diet are performing an experiment on ourselves that couldn't be performed by our forbears because most of them didn't live long enough. I know some did, just as some multi-pack-a-day-smokers today live to be 100, but the average life expectancy was low compared with today. So we cannot say that a paleo diet, followed over a modern lifetime, has no risk. We won't know that for sure until about 100 years from now when we can look back at the current crop of paleo eaters and determine their ultimate fates.

The Blue Zones study attempts to address this problem by studying the diets and lifestyles of populations around the world today in which a much larger than average portion of the population lives to 100 years and beyond. But even that doesn't necessarily translate to our cultures and lifestyles, because most of us don't live in those environments either, nor do we share those populations' genetics.

My diet philosophy is simple: eat a little of everything and not too much of anything. It's the "balanced portfolio" approach to eating.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't think it's accurate to say that **** sapiens ate exclusively meat. Humans are omnivores, and ate whatever they could find and digest. That certainly would include fruits and nuts.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Yeah, it's like the old myth that wolves only hunt sick and weak prey animals, thereby improving the overall health of the herd. When you talk to wolf biologists you learn that wolves are opportunists, just as humans have always been -- they will eat whatever they can get. Sure, if they're stalking two moose, one of which is limping or otherwise obviously ailing, they'll go for that one, but they spend plenty of time chasing and killing perfectly healthy animals. The wolves don't read textbooks; they don't follow the rules we've invented to describe their behaviour.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Ahhhh, the good ol' paleo days....


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

indexxx said:


> we have not evolved much from a biochemical standpoint since we became **** Sapiens- it should therefore follow that our optimal diet be that of our direct forebears.


I also have major problems with these statements. 

First, what is the evidence that there has been little evolution in our underlying biochemistry. Without looking at enzyme kinetics, expression and activity levels, we have no assessment of whether our 'biochemistry' has changed.

Second, physiology is inherently adaptable. Humans like all critters are adaptable and as brad mentions, extremely versatile and capable of adjusting to difficult scenarios, like fasting, or variation in diet. Obviously key nutrients are critical during development, but when mature, adult humans can tolerate nutrient deficiencies for extended periods.

Third, you assume our ancestors had an optimal diet. There is no reason to believe this. Contrary to this, as mentioned by brad, lifespans were ridiculously short. We don't know if that is because they were eaten by dinosaurs, or malnourished.

Anecdotes are anecdotes, not evidence.

I also do the balanced approach. I think the easy way to go about it is the balanced diet, like the balanced portfolio. Mix into this a good level of exercise and you'll be healthy. Modern day assessments of weight and fat levels (BMI) are beginning to be shown to be somewhat arbitrary. A recent meta-analysis has shown that being technically overweight may be 'healthier', all other variables aside.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

andrewf said:


> One thing I've done lately to increase protein in my diet is to make a bean dish once a week. Bean curries, bean soups, chili heavy on beans (you can still include beef/chicken for flavour), bean salads. I have it for lunch a few times a week. I like it because of the high satiety factor to last me from lunch to when I get home for dinner, which can sometimes be a long stretch.
> 
> I also like greek yogurt, which is relatively high in protein and pretty healthy (especially if you can go with unsweetened yogurt with fresh fruit/nuts).


This is good. That nutritionist mentioned beans and greek yogurt as being good protein sources.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

@Brad - Thanks for the suggestions. I'll look into steel cut oats.

I agree the numbers I've seen for recommended protein intake are not consistent.

@cedebe - They don't, but post the recipes anyway. Mock tuna = muna??

@PA - Thanks for the suggestions.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Why do you think you aren't getting enough protein? The amounts listed on that Harvard site are actually quite low when considering an 'average' North American diet. I personally have a strong taste for umami so we consume alot of these types of meals, very satisfying.

I love meat, but we don't eat large portions of it. We do often eat beans (chick peas, kidney, navy), lentils and tofu. Those can be in curries, baked, stewed, vegetarian chilis are popular here, very balanced meal (tomatoes, kidney beans, celery, carrots, sometimes other beans and lentils). We'll also make chickpea curries alot (with cauliflower, and a simple masala mix - or any premade curry powder mix works). My son loves baked beans so we will parboil navy beans then mix in some tomatoes and maple syrup.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Sampson said:


> Why do you think you aren't getting enough protein?


I don't know if I'm getting enough or not. I just want to see if I am getting enough or if I need to make changes. 

Yesterday I started trying to estimate the amount that I ate and the numbers look pretty good, so it's very possible that there is no problem in that regard.

Nonetheless, I need to learn more and make sure I know what I am eating. 

I'm also trying to eat a more balanced diet ie more fruits/vegetable/nuts which were not all that common in my diet previously.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

And we have evolved, some. Most mammals don't continue to produce lactase to be able to digest lactose, and thus eat milk/dairy into adulthood. This seems like a pretty clear adaptation to a herder/livestock keeping lifestyle which has only happened relatively recently.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

We do alot of the 'one pot' style meals, probably because it is easiest with the young kids around. Stews, soups and curries, you can hide just about anything you want in there, lots of veggies, beans, and other healthy grains, barley, brown rice etc. Just find a 'flavor' the family enjoys and load up all those 'forgotten' food groups into mix.

For fruit, since we give our older son a few portions of fruit following every meal, some often 'falls of the truck' for mom and dad.


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## PuckiTwo (Oct 26, 2011)

Four Pillars said:


> 1) Explanations and examples of different food types ie if I want more proteins - what kind of foods should I eat?
> 2) Actual food or recipe suggestions. So for example if I want to eat more protein at breakfast and no bread (unthinkable for me), what exactly should I eat?


*Some Breakfast Ideas - Protein*
FP, I do low carb but don’t do laborious tracking per apps or otherwise. Some dead simple protein breakfast suggestions I like: 

- 3-6 smoked salmon slices, rolled and filled with feta or goat cheese + sprouts, plus 1/2 English cucumber on the side
- 4-6 slices roast beef, brushed w a tiny bit wasabi or horseradish, some feta or goat cheese, + sprouts, roll up
- Scrambled eggs w onions, tomatoes (both chopped) + sliced mushrooms. Heat olive oil in pan, fry a 1/2-1 small chopped onion, handful of mushrooms, beat 3-4 eggs with full cream or almond milk (don’t use real milk*). Pour in pan make scrambled eggs. Add tomatoes, salt/pepper/chives
- Omelett: recipe like a regular omelett but add cubed prosciutto and sliced mushrooms. as a side use cucumber, radish. 

Here is a recipe forum with some good protein breakfast ideas: www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/recipe-f...42651-breakfast-ideas-instead-bacon-eggs.html

If you change from carbohydrate-rich to protein-focussed (as mentioned upthread) cut out all refined flour, noodles, white rice, sugars, potatoes.. Not all carbs are bad, bad is sugar found in many carb-rich foods: 1 cup of milk contains 12 g of carbohydrates of which 12 g of sugar. It’s better to replace with almond milk (1 cup contains 1 g of carbs of which 1 g is sugar. Nutritional value see food packaging. (in Canada we are very lucky to have such a complete list in nutritional values on each packaging). Stay away from any processed food as it most likely is full of carbs (and other nasty things). Dried beans/lentils are a good source of protein but only in moderation, they contain high amounts of purines which cause gout in some people.

If you can’t live w/o breads then replace the store-bought ones with something more complex than the ones from refined flour, e.g. spelt or rye. Spelt is an ancient more complex form of wheat. If you don’t bake yourself find a good artisan bakery in Toronto that specializes in using such flours. Check these out "The Best bread in Toronto link": www.blogto.com/toronto/the_best_bread_in_toronto/ (not all of them have what you want - you need to do DD as in Investing).

However, when you reduce yr carbs yr body will likely respond with cravings which you should counteract for 1 week low carb, not more than 20 g carb/day (call it “induction) with high proteins. Good are all kinds of meat (beef, turkey, chicken, fish of all kinds). Good oils (cold pressed virgin olive oil, grapeseed oil, etc), full cream, cheeses, nuts (esp. walnuts, hazelnuts, almonds).Butter. Lots of vegetables. For the 1st week cut back in fruit as they have a higher sugar content. 1st week no alcohol.

Your body needs to adapt to less carbs. But don’t go hungry. Eat 3 x day plus 2 snacks in between. It seems a lot of fat in this 1st week but it’s ok, after one week you slowly ease into a regular diet with complex carbs ( such as mentioned above natural rice, good breads) fruits, lean meats, lots of vegetables etc. The idea is 2/3 vegetables 1/3 protein.

That’s my take on it. Pucki


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

@Sampson - The 'one pot' idea sounds good.

@Pucki - Thanks. I'm not necessarily looking to reduce carbs. Once I figure out how much of different things I'm eating, then I'll perhaps cut down if I'm eating too much of any one thing. It's my opinion (not backed up by facts yet) that I'm eating too much carbs since I love snacking on carbs...

I have made changes regarding white bread (which I love) and eating more proteins and veggies/fruits. We do have rye bread and I'll check out the spelt stuff.

Your breakfast suggestions sound lovely for any meal.


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## PuckiTwo (Oct 26, 2011)

Four Pillars said:


> ...... I'm not necessarily looking to reduce carbs. Once I figure out how much of different things I'm eating, then I'll perhaps cut down if I'm eating too much of any one thing. It's my opinion (not backed up by facts yet) that I'm eating too much carbs since I love snacking on carbs...


It's my understanding that if you don't cut back in carbs but add more protein you gain weight. The body takes the easy stuff (sugar and simple carbs) first and stores it as fat. Less carbs/more protein makes the body work harder to break the food down which results in increased energy. (that may be too simplified). 
Apparently, equal carbs/protein is also hard on digestion as carbs are processed differently than proteins. There is a theory that one should eat carbs separately from proteins, but I don't want to confuse you in the beginning.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

If you don't cut back in carbs, but add protein, you'll gain weight because you're simply eating more calories. I don't buy the carbs/protein being hard on digestion thing. I'm no expert but it doesn't make sense to me based on what I do know.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

The stupidest thing we ever did was to demonize saturated fat. Guess what coincided with our skyrocketing rates of type II diabetes and obesity?.... you guessed it, the beginning of the lo-fat/no-fat dietary push. We got rid of fat in our diets and substituted carbs. Result.... an unprecedented spike in obesity which continues to this day. So dumb.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I don't plan to add to my total intake so any increase in protein will be compensated for by a decrease in something else.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

(waving) hello bean-lovers whatever happened to the rest of the fact ? beans alone lack the essential amino acid methionine & are not complete proteins.

grains lack the essential amino acid lysine.

only when eaten together can humans assimilate whole proteins from legumes plus grains or rice.

cedebe's legume spreads on whole grain crackers illustrate this nicely. Sampson started out above w beans alone but when he got to his soups & stews he added barley & other grains, so the total pot chez sampson offers balanced protein.

all indigenous diets feature variations of the beans/rice-or-grains pair. Even Peanut butter on whole grain bread is a variation.

related factoid: many people say that quinoa offers a complete protein, but i've seen a few studies that it doesn't. So for me, there's a question mark over quinoa. I for one don't treat quinoa as a complete protein.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> all indigenous diets feature variations of the beans/rice-or-grains pair.


Because it is such a simple but delicious combo.

Nothing better than a So Cal surfer's diet. Rice, beans, sometime fried egg and possibly bacon on top. After a really good work out, you discover whatever satiates the bodies desires, probably has a wide complement of essential nutrients.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I've heard the "complete protein" thing is a myth. Yes, you need all the amino acids, but you don't need them all in every meal. If you have beans at one meal, and rice at the next, you're still good to go (even if you separate by a day or two). 

In other beans & rice related topics, gallo pinto from Costa Rica is my #1 favourite beans & rice dish. They serve it for breakfast there. So yummy.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Spudd said:


> I've heard the "complete protein" thing is a myth. Yes, you need all the amino acids, but you don't need them all in every meal. If you have beans at one meal, and rice at the next, you're still good to go (even if you separate by a day or two)


no, not a myth

yes humans need all the amino acids

yes legumes lack methionine & grains lack lysine, so they need to be combined

nobody said or even mentioned a single meal

my prof used to suggest within one day or 8-10 hour maximum span of time

waiting 2 days or even 1 day is waiting too long because digestion/assimilation of the one will be finished while the other won't yet even be present.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Yes, a myth. A quick google confirms this. The first link below even contains info on studies where they fed people only one type of food for long periods of time, and they were fine. 

http://www.vegsource.com/articles/ProteinRequie.htm
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/vegetarians-need-to-combine-proteins-myth-or-fact.html


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## stardancer (Apr 26, 2009)

One of my favourite ways to get more protein is to throw in a handful or two of edamame. You can find it in the frozen veg section. Goes great in casseroles and other one pot dinners, of course in stir fry, and as an add-in to green salads and cole slaw.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Spudd said:


> Yes, a myth. A quick google confirms this. The first link below even contains info on studies where they fed people only one type of food for long periods of time, and they were fine.
> 
> http://www.vegsource.com/articles/ProteinRequie.htm
> http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/vegetarians-need-to-combine-proteins-myth-or-fact.html



no, not long periods of time. Extremely short periods of time as far as dietary testing is concerned. Maximum 60 days. 

plus look at your bibliography. Those studies are antiquated. Their pub dates range from 1955 to 1988, ie the most recent citation is 24 years old. The oldest, well over half-a-century.

no one could call one isolated 1971 study a myth-buster when it involves a mere 6 males who ate rice or chicken rice over 59 days. Fifty-nine days is *not* a "long period of time," whatever you might want to call it. This study is another oldie-but-never-goldie, published 42 long years ago.

_10.Lee, C., Howe, J.M., Carlson, K. and Clark, H.E. (1971). 'Nitrogen retention of young men fed rice with or without supplementary chicken', Am. J. Clin. Nutr., 24, 318-323. _

other studies in your citation are of subjects fed mixed legumes/grain diets, not grain-only diets or legume-only diets. All studies were short-term & lasted 59 or 60 days. Subjects were tested for nitrogen at the end of each study period but not, apparently, at any follow-up date. These are flimsy studies imho. How could it be possible to draw any long-term conclusions.

my take on cmf forum in general - where people have always been interested in delicious healthy food - is that folks are looking for lifelong improved eating habits, not skewed or bizarre 59-day rice-only diets.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I'm not saying you should only eat rice. I'm just saying that combining proteins in vegetarian food is unnecessary. Just eat a variety of food and you will be fine.

Honestly, I feel this was an unfair attack. It's clear I wasn't recommending a rice-only diet and you are just being argumentative.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Humans are more robust than that. I don't think every meal needs to be a perfect balance of optimal nutrition.

And yes, that was a totally unfair attack. A strawman argument, certainly.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

with all due respect, Spudd, you are clearly the attacker & the arguer here.

what i'd posted was a reminder (waving) about a fact that every dietician & every nutritionist in north America practices & teaches. That beans & grains each lack one essential amino acid but together a human being can metabolize a complete protein from them.

promptly you surfaced & scoffed at this as a "myth."

won't you please read your own messages. You obviously have not read the dated articles in your own links, because they don't back up or coincide with your statements in the least.

if your issue is nothing more than that beans & grains don't have to be combined in one meal, i couldn't agree more. Most people know that already. I can't imagine why you would choose to go to war over such a nothing. This is certainly a new side of Spudd that nobody was expecting !


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