# White House attacking city of Portland



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Bloomberg: Mayor of Portland Tear Gassed By Federal Agents : "Portland, Ore. (AP) -- The mayor of Portland, Oregon, was tear gassed by the U.S. government late Wednesday as he stood at a fence guarding a federal courthouse during another night of protest against the presence of federal agents sent by President Donald Trump to quell unrest in the city."

~~~

I find this rather disturbing, as someone with close ties to Portland. Trump's White House has sent federal police, even when the city *and state* have said the forces are not welcome and should be withdrawn.

This is a direct assault on his political enemies. Trump himself said he would be sending his federal forces into regions controlled by Democrats, and he's prepared a list of cities to launch assaults on. Maybe next, Trump will have the state governor shot? Or perhaps his next move will be to shoot the chief prosecutor of the state of Oregon, perhaps using some of those non-lethal, skull fracturing munitions.

This is one of the worst abuses of federal authority I have ever seen. This is a direct attack on the city, to intimidate and suppress dissidents. Right out of the playbook of a third world dictatorship. And we're not talking verbal or rhetorical attack. Trump has sent in specialized troops to "rough up" the city, and score political points with the far right base.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Trump's strategy here is absolutely classic: whipping up fear, and positioning himself as the strong man who can protect you. A great way to distract attention from his mismanagement of COVID-19 (an absolute catastrophe with a huge death toll). He's actually _trolling_ the city: he initiates conflict, and then spins the footage of the resulting conflict for his own political benefit.

As Trump Pushes Into Portland, His Campaign Ads Turn Darker
​The Trump campaign is spending millions on ads that promote a dark and exaggerated portrayal of Democratic-led cities, a tactic that reinforces his “law and order’’ campaign message.​​As President Trump deploys federal agents to Portland, Ore., and threatens to dispatch more to other cities, his re-election campaign is spending millions of dollars on several ominous television ads that promote fear and dovetail with his political message of “law and order.”​​The influx of agents in Portland has led to scenes of confrontations and chaos that Mr. Trump and his White House aides have pointed to as they try to burnish a false narrative about Democratic elected officials allowing dangerous protesters to create widespread bedlam.​​


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

The funny thing about his campaign message is that he is presenting himself as the only one to prevent/stop this from happening. However, it is happening on his watch right now. It's not some theoretical scenario. I'm not sure highlighting one's incompetence is the way to go, but Trump's different.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Why do police have multicam for domestic law enforcement anyway? They look like mismatched wannabee airsofters cosplaying as rogue special forces drop outs.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

m3s said:


> Why do police have multicam for domestic law enforcement anyway? They look like mismatched wannabee airsofters cosplaying as rogue special forces drop outs.


Those aren't the normal police are they? I get the impression they are the "federal" forces, who probably were given multi-cam. IIRC when they first showed up, they weren't wearing matching uniforms, just a mishmash of clothing.

Another photo with article about deployment. Portland officials decry aggressive tactics of federal agents in their city


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

James, why are protestors trying to destroy the courthouse?
Why is the city/state not protecting government property?

There is a serious problem as the US cities and states are stepping back from their responsibilities, leaving a lawless void.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

m3s said:


> Why do police have multicam for domestic law enforcement anyway? They look like mismatched wannabee airsofters cosplaying as rogue special forces drop outs.


Exactly this. It seems like power fantasy by people who missed their chance.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> James, why are protestors trying to destroy the courthouse?
> Why is the city/state not protecting government property?
> 
> There is a serious problem as the US cities and states are stepping back from their responsibilities, leaving a lawless void.


The solution is an unaccountable secret police that disappears people off the street without due process?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

The Dump's way of MAGA ... or more like sending the present USA to being the Un-united States of America ... into hell. 

It's going to be a sad future for the average American if the Dump's version of MAGA continues as if the pandemic crisis ain't enough.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> The solution is an unaccountable secret police that disappears people off the street without due process?


Of course not.
Do you have any evidence to support that is happening?


Specifically evidence on any of.
1. Unaccountable
2. Secret Police
3. Disappears
4. Due process.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Looks like some Americans approve

President Trump and likely Democratic nominee Joe Biden are now running neck-and-neck in Rasmussen Reports’ weekly White House Watch survey.


The latest national telephone and online survey finds Biden at 47% support among Likely U.S. Voters again this week to Trump’s 45%. Five percent (5%) prefer some other candidate. Four percent (4%) are undecided.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

All you've done james4beach is post on a topic that I'm sure you know will just bring the Trump supporters on this forum out to bash you and praise Trump. Why bother?

I think we have more than enough to deal with here in Canada without spending more time on the problems in the USA. I also think we give far too much coverage on Canadian news programs to the USA while not even mentioning things of importance that are going on in Canada.

This morning I was watching CTV news Toronto which gave plenty of time to Portland and Chicago while giving zero time to the Federal Court of canada decision that the 'safe third country' agreement was unconstitutional.








Safe Third Country Agreement ruled unconstitutional — here’s what could happen next - National | Globalnews.ca


In the decision released Wednesday, Justice Ann McDonald ruled the U.S. is no longer a safe country for refugees sent back from Canada due to the risk of imprisonment.




globalnews.ca





Should that not be more important to Canadians and our news media than something happening in the USA?


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

This introduction of Federal Authorities into Portland is only a beginning.
There are many millions angry unemployed.
Martial Law will be introduced immediately after the November presidential election. The anger is so huge on the streets that the Capitalist System itself is under direct threat.
Congress is going to cut unemployment benefits by 50% this week.
The protesters remember the 2 trillion dollar tax cut given to the Upper Class and they also remember the trillion dollar military budget.
I notice that other members within these forums mention or ask why the Canadian media would highlight the Portland protests as opposed to the safe third country' agreement being found unconstitutional?
I have noticed that what happens in America arrives in Canada within 5 years or less. 
We are going to be smothered with law and order propaganda within Canadian media as our ruling class prepare for placing the military on our streets. Canadian media will use all excuses to mention law and order rather than to talk about the inequalities within the Capitalist System.
I follow American news more so than Canadian news/trends because it is like being a futurist. Canada is the 51st American State. Americans own at least 75% of Canada or more. Canada does not fart without permission from America.

I should also mention that there is huge censorship happening on-line via U.S. tech companies and social networks. This is why these internet firms were allowed to remain private and not subject to FAA regulations.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

calm said:


> This is why these internet firms were allowed to remain private and not subject to FAA regulations.


The FAA regulates aviation in the US. I agree there is a void of regulation online but online companies would just flock to cyprus or panama etc


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> This introduction of Federal Authorities into Portland is only a beginning.
> There are many millions angry unemployed.
> Martial Law will be introduced immediately after the November presidential election. The anger is so huge on the streets that the Capitalist System itself is under direct threat.
> Congress is going to cut unemployment benefits by 50% this week.
> ...


So the Democrats and Republicans are secretly working together for this?
Trump "invades" by deploying police to protect Federal Buildings,
Democrats lock down states to drive high unemployement
Trump will Declare Martial law
Democrats will cut Unemployment

Seems like a lot of cooperation.
I think the simpler answer is that the people and the politicians are all a bunchof idiots who don't know what they're doing.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

m3s said:


> The FAA regulates aviation in the US.


FCC


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

The two political parties just play a game of musical chairs in order to give the illusion of a functioning democracy.
They claim to have different "Dreams" but read the policy platforms.
Was there ever a war or weapons system that Biden voted against?
What has Trump accomplished that was different than those before him? At the same time (this year) that Trump was talking "Buy America" he was buying all his hotel furniture and glassware (8 tons) from China.
Like all those before him ..... Trump talks about his "dreams" but the policies are identical to his opponents.
America is a corporation not a country.
China did not take American factories and jobs. U.S. capitalists begged China to take the factories and jobs and even financed the "theft".
The two political parties enjoy different "Dreams" but employ the same policies.


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## 5Lgreenback (Mar 21, 2015)

andrewf said:


> The solution is an unaccountable secret police that disappears people off the street without due process?


This is a problem everyone should be worried about.

When we allow the labelling of ANTIFA and anti-government folks on the right as "terrorists" we enable this type of state power and force over its own people. Terrorists don't have rights, or any reason needed to be detained nor rights/ability to defend themselves.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

If you are not a pure capitalist, you are a radical and not to be trusted.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

5Lgreenback said:


> This is a problem everyone should be worried about.
> 
> When we allow the labelling of ANTIFA and anti-government folks on the right as "terrorists" we enable this type of state power and force over its own people. Terrorists don't have rights, or any reason needed to be detained nor rights/ability to defend themselves.


Sorry, but ANTIFA is a terrorist group. Look at the definition of terrorism.
"the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."

This is nuts, we have government leaders interfering with law enforcement and openly supporting domestic terrorists.


The problem is that people are making up allegations of stuff without evidence.
Is there any documentation of these secret police disappearing people?
No, even the infamous clip, the police is clearly identified, with ID. Also several experts have suggested it looks more like they're extracting an undercover officer than actually arresting someone.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Those pro-government organizations which breach the law are said to have some bad apples and you can not tar and attack the organization with the same brush.

Anti-government protesters have some bad apples


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> Those pro-government organizations which breach the law are said to have some bad apples and you can not tar and attack the organization with the same brush.
> 
> Anti-government protesters have some bad apples


I'll believe that when they denounce the violence and extremists in their groups.

ANTIFA itself is a violent organization, it's not a few bad apples, it's the actual organization.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> ANTIFA itself is a violent organization, it's not a few bad apples, it's the actual organization.


Are you saying that these Portland protests are ANTIFA?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

m3s said:


> Why do police have multicam for domestic law enforcement anyway? They look like mismatched wannabee airsofters cosplaying as rogue special forces drop outs.


There's a good reason actually. America has made the military industry one of their largest industries. When the companies who produce all this equipment and technology don't have a war, they sell their stuff to domestic police. In fact, they get government stimulus to do it ... and therefore, many police across the US get billions of dollars of military equipment and toys for free:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/09/why-police-pay-nothing-for-military-equipment.html
How police departments got billions of dollars of tactical military equipment - Marketplace

That's how American police become military-like.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

calm said:


> Are you saying that these Portland protests are ANTIFA?


They are not. MrMatt just consumes a lot of right wing media, so he buys the false narrative they put out.

In the world of the American right, "Free speech" is only available to the right wing. No doubt you've seen those free speech rallies where American nut jobs march around with their guns and threaten the local population. They march onto campuses, down city streets, etc.

But when anyone else does it, they want to outlaw it. Well in Portland you're watching others, besides the far right, exercise free speech.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Setting aside the fact that an ANTIFA organization doesn't exist.

Here's a hint: ask yourself who the leader is. Without a leader, it's not really an organization, and neither is there an overall organized fashion of protesting. There are a number of protesters who call themselves ANTIFA, but there is no organization which is why calling it a terrorist organization just shows the stupidity of the whole thing. 

But then again, we're talking about people who use this site: Professional Protesters for Hire starting at $99!, as proof of professional protesters paid to incite violence. Hint: It's a satire site. 
https://mainernews.com/satirical-pr...-of-official-warnings-about-leftist-violence/


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Does anybody really think that jobs could be shipped off shore and that pension plans could be abandoned without realizing that you would need to impose military law?

This militarization of police has been well planned and purposeful.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> Are you saying that these Portland protests are ANTIFA?


Of course not.
But my issue isn't with the protests, my issue is with the violent riots.
It's been widely reported that there is some Antifa presence and activity at the riots.

My issue is that these protestors are not denouncing the violence in their midst.
If they simply marched, without defacing public property, without looting and torching, that would be fine, admirable even.

You even have people saying Antifa doesn't exist. You don't need a published org-chart to exist.
Pretending that there is no violence is very problematic.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

My collection : Your Local Police Force Has Been Militarized

I also have a collection dealing with Martial Law if you were interested.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Of course not.
> But my issue isn't with the protests, my issue is with the violent riots.


We would have to admit that a major majority of these protesters are non-violent.
I agree there are a few bad apples.
Why then are we using such violence against non violent protesters?
Do you think this is being done in order to discourage other people from protesting now or in the future?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> We would have to admit that a major majority of these protesters are non-violent.
> I agree there are a few bad apples.
> Why then are we using such violence against non violent protesters.
> Do you think this is being done in order to discourage other people from protesting?


Again, I have no issue with the protests.
I'm against the riots, violence and looting.

But I think the US has a bigger problem with poorly trained, poorly supervised, poorly paid police, and now they're poorly supported.

The best way to help the poor communities is to get the crime out of them.
I can tell you, I would not invest in a city that disbands their police force.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> You even have people saying Antifa doesn't exist. You don't need a published org-chart to exist.
> Pretending that there is no violence is very problematic.


It doesn't. ANTIFA as a terrorist group is a construction to justify an over-reactionary response. And yes, you do need an org-chart if you want to designate a group a terrorist organization, otherwise everyone and no one could be a member. If they want to specify a specific protest group, then sure. But really, if they want to designate ANTIFA as a terrorist group, they should also do the same for the Boogaloo movement which is just as vague. Boogaloo: The movement behind recent violent attacks


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

james4beach said:


> America has made the military industry one of their largest industries. When the companies who produce all this equipment and technology don't have a war, they sell their stuff to domestic police. In fact, they get government stimulus to do it ... and therefore, many police across the US get billions of dollars of military equipment and toys for free:


I know they get surplus equipment. They also repaint that equipment so that it is clearly police. Not desert tan etc

The Secretary of Defense is also concerned

SecDef Wants to Stop Federal Law Enforcement Agents Dressing Like US Troops


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I feel sorry for the average guy that owns a house and pays taxes in Portland .


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> They are not. MrMatt just consumes a lot of right wing media, so he buys the false narrative they put out.
> 
> In the world of the American right, "Free speech" is only available to the right wing. No doubt you've seen those free speech rallies where American nut jobs march around with their guns and threaten the local population. They march onto campuses, down city streets, etc.
> 
> But when anyone else does it, they want to outlaw it. Well in Portland you're watching others, besides the far right, exercise free speech.


Actually I consume a decent amount of media.
Not much of it is really "right wing", it's not like I'm watching Fox news, just mostly watching/reading CTV, National Post, CBC, Philip DeFranco. It's not like Tucker Carlson is even that interesting honestly.
Joe Rogan is also one of my favourites, he's a great interviewer, sure he had Ben Shapiro on(great interview BTW), but he's also had Bernie Sanders, Andrew Yang, Tulsi Gabbard and a lot of other people.

Heck he had the CEO Twitter to discuss tech censorship. I strongly suggest you watch Joe interview someone you're interested in.

I do have a question for you, what media are you watching? Does watching "right wing media" or "left wing media" create a problem?
Don't you think if you're only aware of one side of the debate you'll be misinformed.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

james4beach said:


> Bloomberg: Mayor of Portland Tear Gassed By Federal Agents : "Portland, Ore. (AP) -- The mayor of Portland, Oregon, was tear gassed by the U.S. government late Wednesday as he stood at a fence guarding a federal courthouse during another night of protest against the presence of federal agents sent by President Donald Trump to quell unrest in the city."
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


 The state caused the problem by over abusing its power. Lock downs are what caused the riots it was not race. The dem states do not care if they totally destroy their country to get rid of Trump. Who has been planting the skids of bricks in the cities? Trump told the people to liberate their states. If the people were smart they would have hung the senator & those supporting the lock downs & the scamdemic in the streets then return back to normal. All the Dem states are a complete mess even though they leach off of the other states.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Of course not.
> Do you have any evidence to support that is happening?
> 
> 
> ...


1. Unnamed police are unaccountable. Many examples of officers in generic uniforms who refuse to say even what department they are with much less their name.
2. See 1.
3. There are reports of people being grabbed off the street without being told they are under arrest. The officers have refused to say where they are taking people when they are being taken.
4. See 3. Many of these arrests are unconstitutional, and most have been released without anything more than misdemeanor charges. This behaviour is completely inappropriate.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Lol but the cops body slamming the French Tim Hortons guy for not wearing a mask was OK...such silly BS here.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Again, he was subdued for resisting police. If you think you can lay hands on a cop without consequence you are delusional.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> Again, he was subdued for resisting police. If you think you can lay hands on a cop without consequence you are delusional.


Right. Try grabbing a cop, and see what happens.

In Portland, it should be noted that protesters are generally doing nothing out of the ordinary when the police come and attack them. They might be marching and yelling but the police attacks (gas, rubber bullets) don't come in direct reaction to any particular aggression.

Even the Mayor (upon getting gassed) remarked that the protesters were doing nothing at the time the United States Government launched the gas attack.

What angers so many people in the US is that the police are carrying out unprovoked attacks. In fact, courts recently stopped the Portland police from using gas, because they were using it so frivolously and excessively.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> 1. Unnamed police are unaccountable. Many examples of officers in generic uniforms who refuse to say even what department they are with much less their name.
> 2. See 1.
> 3. There are reports of people being grabbed off the street without being told they are under arrest. The officers have refused to say where they are taking people when they are being taken.
> 4. See 3. Many of these arrests are unconstitutional, and most have been released without anything more than misdemeanor charges. This behaviour is completely inappropriate.


1. Show some evidence. As I've said before I've seen the video, and the officer was clearly identified with ID and CPB patches.
2. see above, show evidence.
3. They may have only been detained, not arrested. There is no obligation to tell people where you're taking them.
4. Do you have any evidence of this? Are you aware that police are allowed to detain you on probable cause while they investigate? If they've got enough to lay charges, being detained or arrested is completely acceptable.

It sounds like you've swallowed the left wing narrative.
But you've shown no evidence it's happening.

Do you really think it is unconstitutional to arrest or detain someone when they have probable cause? 
Interesting argument.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Do you even look for evidence that contradicts your preferred narrative? Your argument is an example you saw showed uniformed officers. That doesn't disprove that there were un-uniformed officers detaining people. 



https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/07/23/anonymous-federal-officers-portland/











Judge Andrew Napolitano: In Portland, actions of federal agents are unlawful, unconstitutional and harmful


Public dissent against the government is a core personal freedom. It is as American as apple pie. It was integral to the creation of our republic. Government repression of dissent is totalitarian. It is as un-American as the governments against which we fought world wars to preserve our core...




www.foxnews.com







https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/



Probable cause for getting shot in the face, requiring reconstructive surgery?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1282275808413966337


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Do you even look for evidence that contradicts your preferred narrative? Your argument is an example you saw showed uniformed officers. That doesn't disprove that there were un-uniformed officers detaining people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My "preferred narrative", how pejorative of you.

I agree with your article that the police, particularly some of the US police are overmilitarized.
However I haven't seen ANY evidence of unidentified officers. Even that photo was cropped to hide the ID.
I'm not saying there weren't unidentified officers detaining people, I'm saying that I haven't seen any evidence, and the people repeating these claims haven't provided any evidence.
Sorry, a headline making a claim isn't evidence. 

I'd like to point out you made 4 specific claims, I asked for evidence, and you didn't provide the evidence, and thew in an inflamatory video on use of force.

I'm sorry, but since nobody can produce evidence of what you claim, I simply don't believe it's widespread.

It's that simple, you're making these claims, and you're refusing to provide any evidence. Instead you link to opinion pieces, conveniently from a "news source" that just settled a massive claim for defaming a teenager. And follow up with a clip to try and change the topic.

The fact is pretty simple, there are some agitators trying to destroy property, and the government deployed law enforcement to protect it.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Unidentified Federal Agents Are Detaining Protesters in Portland


“It’s like stop and frisk meets Guantanamo Bay,” one Oregon attorney said.




nymag.com




What do you call this?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1283436911307218948








Unidentified Federal Officers Are Scooping Up Protesters In Portland. Are Other Cities Next?


Unidentified federal law enforcement officers are scooping up protesters in Portland and detaining them in unmarked vehicles. They were sent to quell protests, but many say their presence is only fanning the flames. We'll discuss the legality of a president using federal force in U.S. cities...




www.wbur.org













Mysterious Portland arrest video with unidentified police raises questions - CNN Video


A mysterious video of unidentified police arresting a protester and putting him in an unmarked vehicle has been shared widely online, including by a US senator who called it "authoritarianism." US Customs and Border Protection says the person detained in the video was suspected of assaulting...




www.cnn.com






What do you call this? Federal agents without insignia hauling people off the street in rented minivans. It could have been anyone! Would that guy have been within his rights to shoot these agents in self-defense? It could have been a kidnapping.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> What do you call this? Federal agents without insignia hauling people off the street in rented minivans. It could have been anyone! Would that guy have been within his rights to shoot these agents in self-defense? It could have been a kidnapping.


What do I call it?
Bad reporting.

It's funny, I fully expected you'd put this clip up. It's one of the most widely shared clips of "unidentified" police. I even mentioned that the most widely share video had been debunked. Did you even look at the video?
You can clearly see the agency identification patch on their left shoulder, and they're clearly marked as Police in bright yellow on front and back.


So you think it's okay to shoot uniformed law enforcement?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The bad reporting is in the coverage (especially by right wing media) of the Portland protests. Starting even a couple years ago, the right wing was trying to build a narrative of a "disaster" in Portland.

We even had people on this board talking about how insane / out of control the situation in Portland was. So I leaned out the window of my office and saw for myself... nope. Nothing out of control. Just a few people marching around and being loud. I repeatedly posted on this board, years ago, that I was more concerned about the police and what they would do, than any of the protesters. I lived just a few blocks away from where most of this is happening and in previous years, I really never saw anything too crazy happening. Just some loud protesters, and a ton of police dressed like soldiers.

That remains the case today. But the right wing keeps feeding a false narrative of a war zone, which is actually a war zone situation created by police. And now amped up by Trump, by sending in his secret police. He's doing this to disrupt the situation and amp it up.

What MrMatt types don't want you know is that it's specifically the responses from police, DHS cops, and federal cops which has amped up the situation. *The drama you see in the footage now is entirely in response to excessive police, and now, secret federal police.*

The police (in Portland), both local police and federal, are not help keeping law & order. Instead they have been routinely violating civil liberties, to the point where courts gave restraining orders against police to stop some of their actions.

Police are out of control.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> What MrMatt types don't want you know is that it's specifically the responses from police, DHS cops, and federal cops which has amped up the situation. *The drama you see in the footage now is entirely in response to excessive police, and now, secret federal police.*











Mayor's Call for National Guard Answered


Mayor Ted Wheeler and Oregon’s top federal prosecutor have asked Gov. Kate Brown to call up the Oregon National Guard to help police in the state’s largest city with protests that have spun into violence for three consecutive nights.




portlandobserver.com




Someone should tell the mayor.

I'm still waiting for someone to show evidence of these "secret police".
All I've seen is crappy video of uniformed law enforcement.


It's crazy, the media says one thing, and once you see the video it doesn't resemble what they just said.
Look in this thread with the 2 identified police detaining the man in black.
They're clearly identified, yet the "news" is reporting they are some sort of "unidentified secret police".


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

In Portland, people were trying to protest and express their freedom of speech. The full, militarized power of 3 levels of police (local, state, federal) have tried to deprive people of their rights, including doing ridiculous things like detaining journalists, legal observers.

Police are trying so hard to suppress the people. I admire the people of Portland who don't put up with this sh** and know their rights.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> What do I call it?
> Bad reporting.
> 
> It's funny, I fully expected you'd put this clip up. It's one of the most widely shared clips of "unidentified" police. I even mentioned that the most widely share video had been debunked. Did you even look at the video?
> ...


They're not uniformed. It doesn't say which department they represent.

I mean...






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OccuNomix LUX-PSP-YM/L Public Safety Police Vest, Medium/Large, Yellow/Navy: Sporting Goods: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific



www.amazon.com


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> They're not uniformed. It doesn't say which department they represent.
> 
> I mean...
> 
> ...


Actually it does, like in the video posted, you can clearly see they're wearing agency patches on their left shoulder.
That's my point, people keep saying "unidentified", but they're identified and in uniform.

It's really like people are operating in an alternate reality. Even people posting the videos are blind to the identification IN THE VIDEO!!


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Facts are not relevant to the narrative Matt...you're wasting your time.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1286718916102955008
Yes just peaceful freedom of speech...nothing to see here.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

What is so difficult about meeting these demands?

Portland protesters list their demands
July 23, 2020

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1286170974606389249


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Americans are seeing first hand what it's like in those "*** hole" countries where authoritarians and strong-men try to suppress the population.

Personally I don't think Trump can suppress this population. He is spinning it as a law and order issue (a manipulative, fake narrative) but here's what this really is: a young generation, and the poor, who have had enough of heavy handed police, being suppressed by police, and Trump's attempts at authoritarianism.

You can shoot more of these protesters, maybe try Martial Law, and demonize them all you want in the right wing media, for all the good it will do you.

Americans are a crazy bunch. I've got news for you ... they aren't afraid to die, and they WILL protest, fight police, and die in the streets. The poor / young / disenfranchised Americans have the numbers. There is an endless number of them, and even if the tanks start rolling out, it won't be enough to stop them.

Thing is, at the end of the day, the protesters have the moral high ground and they know it. They were protesting peacefully, and police kept using illegal practices to suppress them (this is documented in the court cases which have resulted in rulings against police). Trump is breaking more laws by sending federal police and having them grab people off the street. The protesters know their rights under the laws of the United States of America.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Federal officers have been sent out to protect federal property (a federal courthouse) when local and state officials failed to do their duty. Riots, looting, and destruction of property have been going on there for 7 weeks. Why try to spin this into something it isn't?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Federal officers have been sent out to protect federal property (a federal courthouse) when local and state officials failed to do their duty. Riots, looting, and destruction of property have been going on there for 7 weeks. Why try to spin this into something it isn't?


They are supposed to protect federal property. But that's not what they are doing; they have been seen grabbing people throughout the city. They are breaking the law, and this has been stated by the state's governor and the state's head prosecutor (Attorney General). Even the state's head prosecutor has told the federal police to leave.

Rioting looting etc has not been going on for 7 weeks. They were mostly peaceful protests, but you are hearing a false narrative from right wing media. The angry responses from protesters have been _in response_ to the illegal actions of police -- such as unprovoked tear gas and firing on peaceful protesters who were obeying laws.

The police's abuses over the last few weeks have been so severe that even the courts have put restraining orders on Portland Police. *The police are in the wrong.*

Rusty, the right wing media is lying to you, and you're believing it. The police have been breaking laws and attacking the protesters for many weeks now. That's why you see these angry reactions from people. The right wing media waits for the police to attack and provoke protesters, then is very selective about filming only this footage.

It's right wing propaganda... don't buy it. To gain an edge in life, you have to think independently and not just believe stories that are told to you, especially by people who have agendas.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Here's a letter from lawmakers to the head of the federal DHS, demanding he resign. (PDF)

_Quoting from this letter:_

​Your leadership of this Department has been rife with mismanagement, including inciting xenophobia and recently using federal agents to disrupt lawful, constitutionally protected protests. In particular, we cannot accept the Department’s recent use of unidentified federal agents, in military gear, patrolling the city of Portland, Oregon in unmarked vehicles, nor can we accept recent plans to expand this tactic to other American cities.​​. . . we have witnessed horrific scenes of federal agents, under your orders, *using force to break up peaceful protests while using police-state tactics to scare citizens and force the people of Portland to submit.*​. . .​The right to peaceably assemble and protest is protected by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. . . . The people of Portland were protesting police brutality, and you responded to them with further brutality … These are authoritarian tactics that go against the bedrock of our democratic principles.​

^ a good description of the abuses of police. These are peaceful protesters who are being attacked by police sent by the White House.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Yawn, 50+ days of riots, hundreds shot, 10's killed across the US, and people want to defund the police and let rioters burn down government buildings. Oh look, politicians making inflamatory statements for political gain!!
Say it ain't so!

If you're tearing down the fences around the courthouse, you're not a protestor, you're a rioter.
When it's been declared a riot, and you're ordered to disperse, you're a rioter.

I LOVE how you gave up even providing evidence of the "unidentified secret police".
Kind of hard when all the images online show uniformed and identified officers.

These politicians will play these silly games until the mob comes from them.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Matt, you claim that there is identification on those officers. Who are they? Their faces are covered, they don't display identification. There is a patch that I can't make out. Wearing camo like they are in a warzone is not an accidental choice.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

The very first protest I ever led was in Onaping Ontario in 1970.
During my lifetime I have never known any government (Ruling Class) to give the lower class anything unless there was a threat of violence.
Can anybody here in these forums show otherwise?


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

calm said:


> During my lifetime I have never known any government (Ruling Class) to give the lower class anything unless there was a threat of violence.
> Can anybody here in these forums show otherwise?


It's always been my observation that the lower income group enjoy most of the government programs, freebies, etc, along with low to no taxes compared to any other group. I don't think all that largess came from a threat of violence. It's simply the government trying to help these people. It's the higher income group that qualify for very few of these perks, and they are the ones paying for it. I can't think of any other way of doing it though.

ltr


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Matt, you claim that there is identification on those officers. Who are they? Their faces are covered, they don't display identification. There is a patch that I can't make out. Wearing camo like they are in a warzone is not an accidental choice.


While there are no doubt undercover officers and others acting without identification, I don't believe there are widespread actions of unidentified police.

I didn't claim that there is identification on 100% of officers everywhere at all times.
I did say I have not seen any evidence of this, and you've refused to provide any evidence.
The posted video to this thread, viewed well over 10M times, had uniformed officers, with clear markings.

Think about that, if it was a widespread practice to operate unidentified, don't you think that someone, somewhere, would be able to find a single instance?
I'm a bit skeptical, but the fact that to the best of my knowledge, nobody has provided evidence supporting that this happened even once.

So lacking any evidence, I find it hard to believe it's a widespread practice. It just doesn't add up.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

james4beach said:


> They are supposed to protect federal property. But that's not what they are doing; they have been seen grabbing people throughout the city. They are breaking the law, and this has been stated by the state's governor and the state's head prosecutor (Attorney General). Even the state's head prosecutor has told the federal police to leave.
> 
> Rioting looting etc has not been going on for 7 weeks. They were mostly peaceful protests, but you are hearing a false narrative from right wing media. The angry responses from protesters have been _in response_ to the illegal actions of police -- such as unprovoked tear gas and firing on peaceful protesters who were obeying laws.
> 
> ...


The right wing media sure did a great job of faking up photos and videos and reports on left leaning media outlets.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> The right wing media sure did a great job of faking up photos and videos and reports on left leaning media outlets.


First of all, images of people shouting and marching is NOT showing illegal activity. That's the kind of thing fearful suburban people are trained to think is "out of control" but it's actually legally protected protest activity under the law.

Cops and conservatives also like to believe these things are "out of control" but that's because they don't have a good grasp on civil rights and freedoms.

There is actually very little footage of violent and destructive acts done by the protesters. Things like setting fires, smashing property, or physical attacks. They have happened but there are very few instances of this. But it's dramatic, so the media puts it on a loop and plays it continuously ... *and that's what fools you.*

In fact, MUCH of that footage of crowd violence comes _after_ the police just illegally attacked the protesters. The footage is misleading; it shows the rare, occasional responses of anger from the crowd, but is not showing you how the police are abusing the people and breaking the law.


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## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

james4beach said:


> First of all, images of people shouting and marching is NOT showing illegal activity. That's the kind of thing fearful suburban people are trained to think is "out of control" but it's actually legally protected protest activity under the law.
> 
> Cops and conservatives also like to believe these things are "out of control" but that's because they don't have a good grasp on civil rights and freedoms.
> 
> ...


There are policemen filling up emergency rooms so something is happening. They aren't instigating the leftist mob throwing rocks,Molotov cocktails and other projectiles at them. The left wing media are under reporting the vandalism, looting, assaults etc. CHI is a war zone where 18 people were killed in one day. Policeman fought w left wing anarchists for hours to keep a monument of Christopher Columbus up only to have the useless Democrat mayor remove it the next day undermining them risking their lives.

NYC murders are up over 100% compared to the same month LY and that Democrat fool Deblasio wants to cut police funding. People are leaving NY in droves.

These Democrat mayors are not doing their jobs to protect their cities. Peaceful protest doesn't include taking over downtown cores and vandalizing private and public property and restricting others' movement. You never hear about the black lives that were lost in SEA and WAS due to the left wing mob, a student and a toddler. Left wing media didnt' cover either. Those black lives don't matter apparently


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

It is class warfare. Plain and simple.
It has only been 6 months since the working class (and their great grand children) agreed to bail out the upper class who were bankrupt. (And for the 2nd time in 10 years, I might add.)
And today, these same people who the working class bailed out are beating the working class senseless with batons, and all the while screaming law and order.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

calm said:


> It is class warfare. Plain and simple.
> It has only been 6 months since the working class (and their great grand children) agreed to bail out the upper class who were bankrupt. (And for the 2nd time in 10 years.)
> And today, these same people who the working class bailed out are beating the working class with the screams of law and order.
> The Working Class should of been given a debt jubilee.


I have no idea what you are talking about.

ltr


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

like_to_retire said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about.


Sorry, I am not a a teacher.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> There is actually very little footage of violent and destructive acts done by the protesters


But there is footage of them doing that. Also those are rioters, not protesters. Most people, even those who disagree with their insane protest, don't actually have a problem with peaceful protesters.

The thing is the claims of unidentified secret police lack evidence.

So here I have a few points that reinforce my views.
1. Some people insist on swapping out "protesters" and "violent rioters". They are two distinct activities, and should be handled differently. Even here James is trying to conflate the two.
2. There is clear evidence that there are some violent rioters causing significant damage and harm.
3. In some cases the local politicians have ordered their police to step back and let the rioters take charge.

I think the above is problematic.
We should not allow violent rioters to destroy cities and hurt people.

As far as the claim of unidentified 'secret police', sure it might be happening, but I haven't seen evidence of a single case, which suggests that it isn't likely all that widespread, if it is happening at all.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Social Control or Social Investment?


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

calm said:


> Sorry, I am not a a teacher.


And yet, you continue to try and school us.

ltr


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

I contribute "views" and I don't give exams afterwards.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Jimmy said:


> You never hear about the black lives that were lost in SEA and WAS due to the left wing mob, a student and a toddler. Left wing media didnt' cover either. Those black lives don't matter apparently


That's because they don't fit the narrative.
Look at the CNN exchange between Don Lemon and Terry Crews. He basically said as much.

For those who are interested some "Right Wing Media" has compared Don Lemon 2020 with Don Lemon 2013, just to show how fast the narrative has shifted. 


You want to keep Black people down, you spread crap like this.








Smithsonian Race Guidelines: Rational Thinking & Hard Work Are White Values


A graphic displayed in the guidelines, entitled "Aspects and Assumptions of Whiteness in the United States," declares that rational thinking and hard work, among others, are white values.




www.newsweek.com





If you reject the scientific method, the protestant work ethic and future orientation, you will likely be less successful.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

calm said:


> I contribute "views" and I don't give exams afterwards.


So the 'views" are just your skilled interpretations of events and we're to accept this all as gospel.?

ltr


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

The media is constantly talking about how law enforcement is handling this protest.

Why doesn't the media talk about what the protesters are demanding?
Why isn't the media insisting on negotiations and with regular updates to meet the demands of the protesters?

Why is the media debating "Social Control" and not "Social Investment"?


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## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

MrMatt said:


> That's because they don't fit the narrative.
> Look at the CNN exchange between Don Lemon and Terry Crews. He basically said as much.
> 
> For those who are interested some "Right Wing Media" has compared Don Lemon 2020 with Don Lemon 2013, just to show how fast the narrative has shifted.
> ...


Don Lemon took that picture IQ test that Trump took and called a rhino an elephant. Tells you all you need to know about the IQ of CNN reporters.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Jimmy said:


> Don Lemon took that picture IQ test that Trump took and called a rhino an elephant. Tells you all you need to know about the IQ of CNN reporters.


Did you see any photos of the CHAZ "garden"?

I can't believe anyone is taking these idiots seriously.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> You want to keep Black people down, you spread crap like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*"The chart came from a 1978 book, “White Awareness: Handbook for Anti-Racism Training” by Judy H. Katz, according to the museum. It lists about 50 attributes white people used to describe their culture. These attributes, it said, “have been normalized over time and are now considered standard practices in the United States. And since white people still hold most of the institutional power in America, we all have internalized some aspects of white culture, including people of color.”*


Hmm, so it's not really what you're trying to imply.

The chart is based on a survey of white people, hence the values shown are assumptions that white people made about "white culture".

The scientific method, work ethic, etc are "white values" according to _white people_. But everyone, including people of colour, have internalized some of these beliefs. Okay, I'm no expert, but that seems reasonably likely to be true.

I believe the intent of the chart was to first of all show that these assumptions exist, and secondly to make people realize the flaws in them. Unfortunately, it was met with the predictable outrage from all sides because both liberals and conservatives tend to react without actually putting things into context.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Protestantism’s troubling history with white supremacy in the US 
By Tiffany Puett 
July 16, 2020








Protestantism's troubling history with white supremacy in the US


White supremacists feed off a narrative of America being white and Protestant. The Church’s history in the US is enmeshed with racist ideology.




theconversation.com


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

I thought this was a pretty good interview ....

Police reform
On the show this week, Chris Hedges talks to activist and writer Philip McHarris about the latest calls for police reform in the US.
RT - On Contact
Host Chris Hedges interviews Philip V. McHarris
July 19, 2020
(YouTube Video)


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Did you see any photos of the CHAZ "garden"?
> 
> I can't believe anyone is taking these idiots seriously.


I watch CNN but not in primetime. The lineup of hosts spend too much time giving speeches and then lecturing the viewers. Then the CNN website grabs a soundbite and says.......Don Lemon says this or Anderson Cooper says that etc. I'm not interested in the talking host's opinion on anything.

If you watch CNN.........watch Dana Bash, John King, Wolf Blitzer. They are the news people not opinion hosts.

By the same token, I don't watch Fox primetime either. They are just as bad or worse. They do have good daytime news people though.

The best news. source on TV is still the CBC. There are lots of good news sources online or on the radio.......like POTUS, NPR, or Politico.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

nathan79 said:


> Hmm, so it's not really what you're trying to imply.


I'm implying that labelling those items as "white culture" is 
1. Racist
2. Incorrect
3. Ignorant
4. Damaging to other races.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> I'm implying that labelling those items as "white culture" is
> 1. Racist
> 2. Incorrect
> 3. Ignorant
> 4. Damaging to other races.


That's exactly the entire point. Your anger is misdirected at the creators of the chart for simply highlighting those assumptions. The entire point is to spur discussion and make people reevaluate their beliefs regarding these values.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> The best news. source on TV is still the CBC. There are lots of good news sources online or on the radio.......like POTUS, NPR, or Politico.


Agree, CBC is very good. We're lucky to have such a great national broadcaster which has real journalists.

Also: NPR, BBC, ABC (Australia) and I used to regularly read DW (German)


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Portland protesters love a good fence.

This is an example of the skewed picture of reality that people like MrMatt get. He thinks he's looking at violent protesters tearing down fences to attack federal agents.

In reality, the fence is *illegal. *It was put up without proper permits, and this is public property. The protesters are quickly dismantling this fence, and intend to protest right at the building's steps, on public property -- as is their right under the law.

In fact, The City of Portland demanded federal authorities remove the metal fence and concrete barriers, saying it is illegally installed.

Why do the federal police feel such a compulsion to break the law? Why can't they respect the laws of the United States of America?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

@MrMatt and @m3s , as military guys, you will appreciate this.

Here is Chris David, a 53 year Navy veteran, who was in Portland. He went there to remind the officers of their oath. You can see him standing in front of police (likely federal) motionless. He is not attacking them or lunging at them.

In response, the police beat him with a metal baton. They strike him repeatedly and break his hand in two places. Then they pepper spray him at point blank range.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1284726088187310080
This is WHY the public anger exists. These kinds of abusive, psychopathic police are the reasons the crowds grow. There is no such thing as "Antifa" or "radical leftists". The 53 year old white Navy veteran certainly isn't one of those. The police have beaten up other veterans as well.

The problem is that the police do not appear to be working for the people. They appear to be _against_ the people.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

> In reality, the fence is *illegal. *


Please cite a source. 
I do believe that police have the authority to temporarily restrict access to an area as part of active police activities.
Have you ever seen tape "Police Line Do not Cross". I always thought that there was some legal authority there, but I'm not a lawyer.




james4beach said:


> This is WHY the public anger exists.


Yes, it's one of the reasons, and a justifiable one at that.



> These kinds of abusive, psychopathic police are the reasons the crowds grow.


Yes.



> There is no such thing as "Antifa" or "radical leftists".


No, those absolutely exist, and documentation and evidence exists.
If you have a group, identifying themselves as Antifa, and flying an Antifa flag, it is pretty hard to argue they don't exist.

You seem to have some sort of bias, where you think I'm some sort of pro-government Trump supporter.
Absolutely not, I simply think there are political forces at play, and the government and media are both trying to spin false narratives on what is happening.

Believe it or not, I actually care about the people, and I think the truth is part of this.

Are things looking like they're getting worse? 
Yes.
Are the false reports on what is happening contributing to the problem?
Yes.

When I say false reports, you can pick either political angle, there are clearly false reports being presented in the media as fact.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Another day and the media still does not discuss why the protests are happening and no discussion of negotiations with the protesters.
The protesters are not demanding social control. They are demanding social investment.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> Another day and the media still does not discuss why the protests are happening and no discussion of negotiations with the protesters.
> The protesters are not demanding social control. They are demanding social investment.


They'are actually demanding the destruction of western civilization.
The fact that they rioted after Chauvin was charged with murder shows it's not about seeking justice.
The fact that they've shot and killed more people in the past month than the police do in a year, show it's not about Black Lives. Don Lemon said so on CNN.

There are protestors who want to address the issues, but the extremists are hijacking these movements, and unfortunately I think they're going to drown out the reasonable voices who are actually trying to make things better.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Let's pretend that 10 percent are extremists and hijackers. (bad apples)
Does that prevent negotiations?
How does one destroy western civilization with a protest?
I think that the intransigence is with the Ruling Class who refuse to negotiate and make social investments.
Congress is not a crime-free zone and nor are protests. Every organization has bad apples.
Negotiations need to take place while we continue to deal with bad apples.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> Let's pretend that 10 percent are extremists and hijackers. (bad apples)
> Does that prevent negotiations?


Yes, have you seen the video of journalists interviewing protestors to ask them what they want, and someone will come by and just scream and interrupt the discussion?



> How does one destroy western civilization with a protest?


They don't.
It's the riots and violence, when you torch a courthouse, you're not really pushing for justice.
Threats and intimidation on public officials.



> I think that the intransigence is with the Ruling Class who refuse to make social investments.


I disagree. I think the problem is we have generations of people told they'll never amount to anything no matter how hard they try. So they don't.
We have governments systematically attacking families, with predictable results.
Yet people keep voting in politicians promising more and more destructive policies, then getting upset that the predicted outcome ACTUALLY HAPPENED!!



> Congress is not a corruption-free zone and nor are protests. Every organization has bad apples.


I agree. That's why I don't want these organizations running my life.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

.
Are a majority of protesters peaceful?
Just like the Congress, there are a small minority who are criminals.
Should we ignore Congress and beat them senseless because of a few bad apples in their midst?

The Ruling Class are using any excuse to ignore them.
It is the refusal to negotiate in good faith that will result in more destruction.
And the Ruling Class know this all too well.
I think the Ruling Class are refusing to negotiate in order to discourage protests and to have it appear to be dangerous to peacefully protest.''
Showing protesters have no "value".
Have the media endlessly talk about it so that the viewing public become impatient and want to "Move On" to another crisis.

The Ruling Class use this non negotiate stance time after time.
Think back to the Occupy Wall street protests and the protests in Fergusson.
The same tactics were used by the Ruling Class. Time after time the Ruling Class claimed that the protesters were just too violent and unworthy of any recognition.

It is because of this and my 72 years of life experience that I have come to realize that the Ruling Class will never give the Lower Class anything without the threat of violence.

This frustration of not negotiating will have the protesters need to abandon "Marching in Formation" and simply wander the city aimlessly and commit acts of civil disobedience. The Ruling Class would be unable to control a protest that does not maintain the usual "March" down main street.

If I was the protest leader, I would give the Ruling Class about a 10 day window to set up a negotiating time table.

Rather than a protest "March or Parade", I would choose a specific and definite date and where each individual protester would choose a time and place to commit an act of civil disobedience anywhere within the city in order to show the tremendous power and support which they as a group have and enjoy.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> .
> Are a majority of protesters peaceful?
> 
> If so, then the Ruling Class are using any excuse to ignore them.
> ...


Counter example.
The Queen gave Canada independence, and Canada issued no threat of violence.
Canada gave women the vote, I don't recall a threat of violence.
Your claim of "never" is provably false.

The reality is that the protesters are asking for some reasonable things and some crazy things.
The politicians are listening to some of those items, some of the reasonable things have happened as have some of the crazy things.

In my decades of experience, I've found that open and honest debate causes change and progress.
To use your words, the ruling class knows this, which is why they're attacking free speech.

I think that it is not correct to conflate the protesters and rioters/agitators.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Please cite a source.
> I do believe that police have the authority to temporarily restrict access to an area as part of active police activities.


I cited it in the very post you responded to, it was the link at the top of my post. Here's an additional source that's even more clear:



> PORTLAND, Ore. — The City of Portland Thursday demanded federal authorities remove a metal fence and concrete barriers it says were illegally installed around the federal courthouse in downtown Portland.
> 
> “The structures are both unpermitted and represent a hazard to the traveling public,” Chris Warner, director of PBOT, wrote in a letter to the U.S. General Services Administration.
> 
> Warner said the fence needs to be removed promptly, and if it isn’t, the city will consider fines and potential legal action.


When will the federal police learn to obey the law? Why do Trump's goons have such a disrespect for law and order? They put up illegal structures, block public access, snatch people off the streets when it's not their jurisdiction, beat up 53 year old military veterans who are standing peacefully...

IMO much of this unrest relates to the economic desperation happening right now (probably a Depression). Americans were largely willing to put up with police abuses and brutality for decades. But it's a game changer when suddenly, everyone is unemployed.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I cited it in the very post you responded to, it was the link at the top of my post. Here's an additional source that's even more clear:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, it is clear that the mayor wants to direct the actions of Federal Law Enforcment.
I do not believe that a city mayor has the authority to direct such activities.

Please cite the law that gives the Mayor of Portland authority over Federal Law Enforcement. 


Please cite proof that.
1. The structures are illegal. 
2. The Federal government clearly has the authority to block access to federal facilities.
3. Please provide evidence that anyone was snatched out of their jurisdiction. As far as I know Federal officers have jurisdiction across the US, and I believe all these activities occurred within the US. In the cases I'm aware of the detentions were in connection to crimes committed against federal property and agents.

Quite simply you're making a lot of unfounded allegations, which you won't back up.
I think this will follow the same pattern of the unidentified law enforcement detaining people, the claim was repeated, but no evidence has yet been presented.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Counter example.
> The Queen gave Canada independence, and Canada issued no threat of violence.
> Canada gave women the vote, I don't recall a threat of violence.


.
The Queen could not afford and it was too burdensome to govern colonies which were so far away.
A British governor-general represented British interests within Canada, essentially filling the shoes of the sovereign.

The role of violence in winning votes for women








The role of violence in winning votes for women (and men) | Letters


Letters: Andy de la Tour, Mark Bostridge, Jinty Nelson, Mike Gavin, Joe Collier and Mary Routh on the suffragette movement and the extension of the franchise in 1918




www.theguardian.com


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Yes, it is clear that the mayor wants to direct the actions of Federal Law Enforcment.
> I do not believe that a city mayor has the authority to direct such activities.
> 
> Please cite the law that gives the Mayor of Portland authority over Federal Law Enforcement.
> ...


Here's a letter from the city to the federal government (U.S. General Services Administration). I presume that the city's lawyers know what they are doing.



http://www.portland.gov/sites/default/files/2020-07/pbot-director-warner-to-gsa-region-10-administrator-atwood-2020-07-23.pdf?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery



You might also recall that Americans don't like seeing the federal government trample over local jurisdictions. Your right wing buddies down south have been screaming their heads off, for years, about unwelcome federal power in their states. In fact, even in Canada, I recall you expressing many times that you want the federal government to "leave you alone".


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> .
> The Queen could not afford and it was too burdensome to govern colonies which were so far away.
> A British governor-general represented British interests within Canada, essentially filling the shoes of the sovereign.


The GG is not British.
In anycase you only need 1 point to prove the never false.



> The role of violence in winning votes for women
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Canada had a different experience, many Canadian Women already had the vote while they were still fighting about it in the UK.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

I read your reply


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Here's a letter from the city to the government. I presume that the city's lawyers know what they are doing.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.portland.gov/sites/default/files/2020-07/pbot-director-warner-to-gsa-region-10-administrator-atwood-2020-07-23.pdf?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery


They definately know what they're doing, they're playing a PR game.
Again, what authority does the City have to direct Federal law enforcement?


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

james4beach said:


> You might also recall that Americans don't like seeing the federal government trample over local jurisdictions.


Federal property isn't a local jurisdiction.

You've been proven wrong repeatedly and keep on posting falsehoods and misinformation and you refuse to either retract your comments or correct them. Why are you acting like a troll?


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> They definately know what they're doing, they're playing a PR game.
> Again, what authority does the City have to direct Federal law enforcement?


You would never talk like this if a liberal / left wing government was trampling on the local territories of conservative areas. If that happened, you would be screaming about an improper and unwelcome federal presence.

You are a person who does not like federal powers trampling on YOU... and have stated so before. Surely you understand why it's even more unacceptable in the US.

Let's say that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is elected president some day. And then some rural area, the kind of place near and dear to your heart, is unable to control some of their locals. So AOC sends in the federal police to occupy that zone, overruling local laws, local sheriffs, even overruling the state.

Would you really be comfortable with that? I'm going to guess "no".



Prairie Guy said:


> Federal property isn't a local jurisdiction.


The federal police area way off the federal property, they are detaining people in the streets, shooting them in the streets, and spraying chemical weapons into the streets -- outside of federal property.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> You would never talk like this if a liberal / left wing government was trampling on the local territories of conservative areas. If that happened, you would be screaming about an improper and unwelcome federal presence.
> 
> You are a person who does not like federal powers trampling on YOU... and have stated so before. Surely you understand why it's even more unacceptable in the US.
> 
> ...


Yawn, again, you made claims, and when you realized you can't back them up, you ditch them.

I don't like any Government powers trampling on people in General. I've never suggested this was appropriate.
My personal comfort is irrelevant, are they acting in accordance with applicable law? If so, I might not like it, but we're supposed to be a country of laws. 


Again, here you go, ditching your last set of unsubstantiated claims. It's not surprising that you've refused to back up any of the claims I disputed.
The Federal police are engaging in law enforcement activities within their jurisdiction.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Yawn, again, you made claims, and when you realized you can't back them up, you ditch them.
> 
> I don't like any Government powers trampling on people in General. I've never suggested this was appropriate.
> My personal comfort is irrelevant, are they acting in accordance with applicable law? If so, I might not like it, but we're supposed to be a country of laws.


I defer to experts in this field, and have previously posted letters from Congress where lawmakers have told federal departments to withdraw from these operations. I think I posted that in this very thread.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

....It was the city’s worst-kept secret, an unspoken understanding between the local narcotics unit and people on the streets they policed.
If you run from the cops, a former narcotics officer with the Springfield Police Department told federal investigators, you “get a beat down.”
Perhaps most striking was the brazenness with which members of the unit carried themselves, with one narcotics detective telling a 15-year-old suspect being questioned about a stolen vehicle that “I could crush your [expletive] skull and [expletive] get away with it” — even as surveillance cameras rolled.
‘One of the worst police departments in the country’: Reign of brutality brings a reckoning in Springfield
Long before a scathing report from the Justice Department, Springfield police exhibited a shocking brutality
By Dugan Arnett and Laura Crimaldi
July 25, 2020








‘One of the worst police departments in the country’: Reign of brutality brings a reckoning in Springfield - The Boston Globe


An explosive report released earlier this month by the US Department of Justice, which details deep dysfunction within the department, has brought the national conversation on police brutality to the doorstep of Springfield.




www.bostonglobe.com


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I defer to experts in this field, and have previously posted letters from Congress where lawmakers have told federal departments to withdraw from these operations. I think I posted that in this very thread.


People said stuff, they have no evidence, you have no evidence, but TRUST US, we're THE GOVERNMENT!

Sorry when various parts of the government are arguing about stuff, I want to see the evidence, otherwise I question all of it.

Oh, and just a reminder, Congress does not have the authority to direct law enforcement. There's that whole "Separation of powers" thing in the US.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> ....It was the city’s worst-kept secret, an unspoken understanding between the local narcotics unit and people on the streets they policed.
> If you run from the cops, a former narcotics officer with the Springfield Police Department told federal investigators, you “get a beat down.”
> Perhaps most striking was the brazenness with which members of the unit carried themselves, with one narcotics detective telling a 15-year-old suspect being questioned about a stolen vehicle that “I could crush your [expletive] skull and [expletive] get away with it” — even as surveillance cameras rolled.
> ‘One of the worst police departments in the country’: Reign of brutality brings a reckoning in Springfield
> ...


Aren't you glad the Federal Government investigated?
I'm sure that James thinks they were trampling on the rights of those officers.

Maybe what we need to do is improve police training and oversight?


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Maybe Trump and The Clowns made this decision to distract everybody.
Trump was playing the Godfather on the world stage while badmouthing just how horribly China was beating the protesters in Hong Kong. Many times Trump has made proclamations about the right to peacefully protest in Venezuela.
Remember Ukraine with Obama?
Victoria Nuland even delivered cookies and sandwiches to the protesters in Ukraine. The city center in Ukraine was on fire, but America said the protesters were peaceful.

Just think how laughable Trump would look as comparisons are made to where Trump supported the protestors in Hong Kong just a day/week earlier?
Many acts of violence took place during the protests in Hong Kong. Remember the protestors in Haiti?

Trump sends in some troops and the media manufactured a controversial topic or issue in an attempt to camouflage any hypocrisy.

And then the topic becomes State Power and not about the right for peaceful protest.

In America, the pictures and images show the violence, .... and that is what the viewer remembers. Generally speaking the "Process - State Rights" voice-overs are barely heard. And the media will say they "Reported", and never had the time to make comparisons, they were too busy reporting process.

...... After all ..... We Are A Country Of Laws.

Hong Kong protests: Are police using excessive force?
Victor Gao defends police tactics in Hong Kong and China’s detention of Muslim Uighurs.
November 23, 2019








'Full of arrogance': Trump angers China by signing bills backing Hong Kong protesters


Beijing says ‘US plot doomed to fail’ after legislation approved that threatens sanctions if officials abuse human rights




www.theguardian.com


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Aren't you glad the Federal Government investigated?


-
Yes. I am glad to read that Trump got involved.
I posted the article link in order to show that police violence stories never end. More evidence of racism.

This is what needs to be negotiated.

An understanding what is meant by De-Fund the Police.

The cost of one police man is too prohibitive. Cops get paid tons of money and a Communist Style benefits plan.

I would think that any city could cut the amount of policemen by 25 percent and still be able to control real crime.

Replace the 25 percent reduction with social workers. 
Have the social workers live in the community.
Example:
Chicago has 12 thousand officers.
Terminate 3 thousand.
Hire 3 thousand social workers.
Community Centers become "Social Centers".

Police Rescue and not Police Force.

Social Investment and not just Social Control

What is wrong with that demand?


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

calm said:


> What is wrong with that demand?


It won't work. 

Most of police calls are taking care of crazy people. Yeah, let's send in a small 25 year old female social worker to take care of that.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> -
> Yes. I am glad to read that Trump got involved.
> I posted the article link in order to show that police violence stories never end. More evidence of racism.


No, it's evidence of police violence.



> This is what needs to be negotiated.


Discussed, not "negotiated".


> An understanding what is meant by De-Fund the Police.


There are multiple interpretations.
The reality is that the government is, rightly, generally prohibited from interfering with the lawful acts of citizens.
If they're violating laws, that's the role of law enforcement.

The idea of sending non-law enforcement to enforce laws seems odd. Specifically in many areas much of the law enforcement powers are restricted to Police/Sheriffs/Peace officers etc.



> The cost of one police man is too prohibitive.
> 
> Cops get paid tons of money and a Communist Style benefits plan.


Cops get good benefits, and they're fairly compensated.



> I would think that any city could cut the amount of policemen by 25 percent and still be able to control real crime.


In my staff Police typically don't respond to property crime and don't have regular patrols in most neighbourhoods due to lack of staff.



> Replace the 25 percent reduction with social workers.


Social workers?
Do you think social workers can do anything about the guys breaking into cars, assaulting people walking down the street, and disregard for traffic laws?



> What is wrong with that demand?


What will it accomplish?
Will it take the guns out of the criminals hands?
Will it stop the theft and destruction of property in a community?

Lets say you live in Chicago, and there is a shooting, exactly what do you expect a social worker to do?
What about the guy breaking into houses in MY neighbourhood? Is a social worker going to investigate and arrest them?

Do you know what would help in Chicago?
Double the amount of police officers.
Get the drugs out of there, make schools safe for learning.
Make the streets safe so people can get to work and companies and jobs will locate in the neighbourhoods.
Get them interacting with the people so they understand those police just want people to be safe, and want them to go about their lives.

Also increase police supervison to monitor for bad behaviour.
Provide increased training so that they know how to de-escalate situations.

As Jocko Willinik (former Navy Seal) said he thinks they should spend at least 20% of their time on training.
They should have at least a few days, ideally a week a month on reviewing de-escalation techiniques and other things.[/quote][/quote][/quote]


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, let's send in a small 25 year old female social worker to take care of that.


That is a stereotype of a social worker.
They are very professional and are trained well in their craft.
A multitude of "Social" issues can be handled very easily by a social worker.
I think we could probably hire 2 social workers for each police man who was terminated.
------
Why are we expecting "Perfect Results" ?
Try and imagine some success?
It is not the end of the world if there are a few instances where the new system needs to be tweaked.
Policing was invented in order to prevent slaves from running off.
Cowboys and *****'s are over.
People don't want John Wayne when a counsellor is required.
Police create mental homes called jails and the cost is 50 per prisoner each year
Things are changing.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> That is a stereotype of a social worker.
> They are very professional and are trained well in their craft.
> A multitude of "Social" issues can be handled very easily by a social worker.
> I think we could probably hire 2 social workers for each police man who was terminated.
> ...


What types of Social issues do you think could be handled by a social worker?
Honestly I'd imagine there aren't many calls where a law isn't being broken where state interference is justified.

Are you actually suggesting that Government officials should be allowed to come and interfere with the lawful activities of citizens?


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

calm said:


> Why are we expecting "Perfect Results" ?
> Try and imagine some success?
> It is not the end of the world if there are a few instances where the new system needs to be tweaked.


What I imagine is some young girl with all sorts of wonderful social worker ideas to help people, and then gets smashed in the head with a baseball bat by an idiot wired on crack. These are the types of calls police respond to every day, and find that someone on crack has the ability to lift a truck when they're stoned and it takes 4 officers to subdue the guy. Then the next day they are criticized for their actions.

ltr


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

About the guy breaking in to your house when you are not home.

When he gets caught, he needs to be offered a deal. He needs to tell the cops who bought all the stuff he stole.
f it were not for people who own houses themselves buying hot stuff, Break and Enter crimes would generally not happen. Police don't like charging the guy who purchased the hot stuff because he pays property taxes and which pay the policeman's salary.
A high school kid who steals tools/lawnmowers from a garage is not selling it at school. He is selling it to storefronts or homeowners.
Give the thief immunity if they rat out the buyer.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> About the guy breaking in to your house when you are not home.
> 
> When he gets caught, he needs to be offered a deal. He needs to tell the cops who bought all the stuff he stole.
> f it were not for people who own houses themselves buying hot stuff, Break and Enter crimes would generally not happen. Police don't like charging the guy who purchased the hot stuff because he pays property taxes and which pay the policeman's salary.
> ...


I buy stuff and sell stuff in the secondary market all the time. 
I don't actively search for stolen items and they typically aren't.
I think a strong secondary market for used items is good for everyone.

Buyer, seller, environment.

If the buyer of stolen items knows, sure bust him, but also get rid of the criminal breaking into houses. Why offer him immunity, maybe cut his sentence by 10-20%, but immunity? that's crazy.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

okay .... no immunity. But a trade off.
I know an owner with a 2nd hand tool store in Toronto. I know all about "Secondary Markets" and how many times the cops check out the operations.
All the owner needed to do was promise the cops to rat out any suspicious person he saw and they would never harass him.
There was one instance where the guy who lost his tools had to get some reeplacement tools so he could work. And he recognized his stolen tools on the shelf. The owner was a true capitalist who just made some "Mistakes". (Not crimes. Innocent Mistakes. He forgot to check.) He used to laugh at people who actually shined their tools and worshiped chrome.

I guess if it was left up to you as to negotiations you would be Okay with the cops continuing tear gassing and beating down protesters rather than to give these new ideas or demands a try?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> I guess if it was left up to you as to negotiations you would be Okay with the cops continuing tear gassing and beating down protesters rather than to give these new ideas or demands a try?


I do not think the police should be tear gassing and beating any protesters at all. This is not acceptable.
I've been 100% consistent in that. 
What was the purpose of assigning such an abhorrent opinion to me?
Is your position so weak you have to drop to unfounded personal attacks?

The politicians can investigate these ideas if they want. 
I think the demands should be categorically rejected. These unelected mobs have no authority to make demands, if they have concerns they should work through the respective community representatives, that's how democracies work.

The ideas can be considered, and with elections coming up, I'm certain that people will be debating and discussing them. 

But the example in Minenapolis is astonishing example of what happens when you just start tearing down the system.
A small portion of the nearly half million residents were at protests calling for defund the police. In fact I'm not aware if anyone has done numbers to determine if the actual residents want to defund the police.

They are massively defunding the police, crime skyrockets, and now they apparently have armed citizen patrols trying to enforce public safety. What scares me more than official police with problems is untrained and unaccountable citizen groups stepping in to fill that void.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> I do not think the police should be tear gassing and beating any protesters at all. This is not acceptable.
> I've been 100% consistent in that.
> What was the purpose of assigning such an abhorrent opinion to me?
> Is your position so weak you have to drop to unfounded personal attacks?


Maybe what I should of said or more properly said was that you seem to be happy with the status quo.
No real need or urgency to negotiate unless the protesters walk away?
That the idea itself (social workers) will not work.
Okay ..... I got that.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> I do not think the police should be tear gassing and beating any protesters at all. This is not acceptable.
> I've been 100% consistent in that.


Thanks for that, MrMatt.



MrMatt said:


> The politicians can investigate these ideas if they want.
> I think the demands should be categorically rejected. These unelected mobs have no authority to make demands, if they have concerns they should work through the respective community representatives, that's how democracies work.


I completely agree that decisions have to be worked through the representative. It's a democracy, and that's how it works -- absolutely agree.

But I also think those large groups of protesters are the citizens, the voting people. After some years, they could have power and _be_ the government. Especially the cohort of young Americans who are growing up with this kind of shocking education in how much the police hate them, and just how little govt & police care about their interests.

They won't forget that and neither COVID-19, COVID-20, nor police can kill off those young people. And beating them down only strengthens their numbers, as you can see in the numbers showing up for protests.

I think it would be smart to start listening to them.

The problem is that when a significant, powerful demographic of citizens is ignored and trampled on for a long time, the possibility of a *severe backlack and over correction exists*. I don't know about you, but I don't want a massive over-swing in values.

I think it's wiser to realize what the people want and be amenable to change. The alternative is that they will come after you, HARD.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> I remember the huge story which happened in Yellowknife NWT.
> 
> Maybe what I should of said or more properly said was that you seem to be happy with the status quo.
> No real need or urgency to negotiate unless the protesters walk away?
> ...


You're talking about negotiate like we're in some 2 party hostage situation.
The concerns and ideas are raised, now it's time for democracy to figure out what to do.
We can't simply let a small noisy majority dictate the direction of our society, that's undemocratic.

I'm not happy with the status quo, I want things to be better.
My issues is that the protestors are advocating for actions that will make the problem worse. 
It's really that simple, they have some good ideas and some bad ideas, we should reject the bad ones. I agree with them on the good ones.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Thanks for that, MrMatt.
> 
> I completely agree that decisions have to be worked through the representative. It's a democracy, and that's how it works -- absolutely agree.
> 
> But I also think those large groups of protesters are the citizens, the voting people. After some years, they could have power and _be_ the government. Especially the cohort of young Americans who are growing up with this kind of shocking education in how much the police hate them, and just how little govt & police care about their interests.


I agree, however these protestors are only a small number of citizens.

I agree, growing up with the shocking "education" in how much the police hate them is a HUGE problem.
Particularly since as a rule, it simply isn't true

I do agree that the Government doesn't care about their interests, look at leaders like Trudeau and AOC, they're actively pushing destructive policies that hurt people. 
I hope they wake up and see they're being played.



> They won't forget that and neither COVID-19, COVID-20, nor police can kill off those young people. And beating them down only strengthens their numbers, as you can see in the numbers showing up for protests.
> 
> I think it would be smart to start listening to them.
> 
> The problem is that when a significant, powerful demographic of citizens is ignored and trampled on for a long time, the possibility of a *severe backlack and over correction exists*. I don't know about you, but I don't want a massive over-swing in values.


I agree, but I see this severe backlash and overcorrection is happening now.
We've done a lot of good work promoting democracy and purging racism from our society, and we've accomplished so much.
But now the authoritarian left is really going nuts, they're blatantly racist and undemocratic, I'm very concerned for the future if we continue on this path much longer.



> I think it's wiser to realize what the people want and be amenable to change. The alternative is that they will come after you, HARD.


I agree, unfortunately I don't even think they realize what they're doing.
Sure there are lots of self serving people pushing racism and divisiveness for political gain.

But I think the vast majority are just going along with a soundbite.
They think BLM, which is a good idea, and ignore the fact that BLM founders/leadership are apparently Marxists intent on destroying the country.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I think there are a lot of interests mixed up together in these crowds. But at its core, I think it's an uprising of the poor.

They've been screwed over for the last 40 to 50 years, and that anger is boiling over. That extends to white people, black people, left-leaning, *right-leaning*, all of them. If they become coherent and focused, watch out -- they are coming to take back what's theirs.

_Edit:_ I suspect this also explains the media focus on racism and especially right-vs-left. I think these are divide-and-conquer tactics to prevent these masses from realizing that they are all poor and have a common goal.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I think there are a lot of interests mixed up together in these crowds. But at its core, I think it's an uprising of the poor.
> 
> They've been screwed over for the last 40 to 50 years, and that anger is boiling over. That extends to white people, black people, left-leaning, *right-leaning*, all of them. If they become coherent and focused, watch out -- they are coming to take back what's theirs.


I think it's an uprising of greed and ignorance being exploited by political leaders.
That isn't to say that there isn't systematic oppression, there more certainly is, but again I think it is from the government trying to create a dependent underclass that will support them regardless of their other flaws.

Thomas Sowell writes about this extensively, I suggest you listen to his interviews, he's been remarkably insightful over the decades.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Jimmy said:


> Don Lemon took that picture IQ test that Trump took and called a rhino an elephant. Tells you all you need to know about the IQ of CNN reporters.


It's a dementia test, not an IQ test.


----------



## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

andrewf said:


> It's a dementia test, not an IQ test.


So Lemon is low IQ and demented.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

I just heard a comment on CPAC and a parliamentary hearing ...... Before Covid-19, "62 percent of police calls in Peel Region are about mental health issues." (Many more now because of Covid-19.)
That is why there are demands to De-fund Police and hire Social Workers.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

For many Americans, the Second Amendment is a defense against their own government



> "The 2nd Amendment to the Constitution isn’t for just protecting hunting rights, and it’s not only to safeguard your right to target practice," *Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas*, said in a fundraising letter for his 2016 presidential campaign. "It is a Constitutional right to protect your children, your family, your home, our lives, and *to serve as the ultimate check against governmental tyranny — for the protection of liberty."*
> 
> Conservative blogger Erick Erickson said the Second Amendment, "contrary to much of today’s conversation, has just as much to do with the people protecting themselves from tyranny as it does burglars." And Erickson believes that is the main reason gun control advocates don't understand the need for high-capacity semi-automatic firearms
> . . .
> ...


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

And that's exactly why the Dems want to take away guns...they can't take control of armed citizens. The very first thing all dictatorships do is take away the guns to prevent people from fighting back.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> I just heard a comment on CPAC and a parliamentary hearing ...... Before Covid-19, "62 percent of police calls in Peel Region are about mental health issues." (Many more now because of Covid-19.)
> That is why there are demands to De-fund Police and hire Social Workers.


Source? That sounds made up.
Please define "police call"
People call 911 because their pizza is late.

Secondly maybe they need to have an emergency number that is not police?
Wait, we do, if it was merely a health issue, they could call an ambulance.

Otherwise, if there are no laws being broken, and there is no health problem, why is the government getting involved?

Finally I'm all for hiring people to deal with other problems, but I am against defunding the police until we get an adequate level of law enforcement.
We have insufficient police to enforce laws, and they aren't getting the training they need.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Oh, and regarding the unproven accusations in Portland, we have an answer. 
The injunction was rejected, in part due to lack of evidence proving the allegations.

So not only were you unable to provide evidence, the state AG was also unable to provide the evidence.
Maybe the actions you're claiming simply aren't all that widespread.

From a summary article.
"He also said that the state did not present evidence of any official orders or policies behind the seizures, nor any evidence that they are in widespread use."


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

MrMatt said:


> What scares me more than official police with problems is untrained and unaccountable citizen groups stepping in to fill that void.


You mean like these peaceful NFAC protesters in Kentucky?

_"Hundreds of armed, predominantly Black, activists demanded justice for Breonna Taylor during demonstrations Saturday in her Kentucky hometown that drew counter-protesters from a white militia group". 









Black armed protesters march in Kentucky demanding justice for Breonna Taylor


A group of heavily armed Black protesters marched through Louisville, Kentucky on Saturday demanding justice for Breonna Taylor, a Black woman killed in March by police officers who burst into her apartment.




www.reuters.com




_


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> You mean like these peaceful NFAC protesters in Kentucky?
> 
> _"Hundreds of armed, predominantly Black, activists demanded justice for Breonna Taylor during demonstrations Saturday in her Kentucky hometown that drew counter-protesters from a white militia group".
> 
> ...


3 members of armed militia injured in shooting at Breonna Taylor protest
"3 members of armed militia injured in shooting at Breonna Taylor protest
A militia member apparently accidentally discharged their weapon."

If you're shooting people at your protest, you're not "*peaceful*"


It's one thing to be criminally incompetent as above, but there was also the case where it is alleged that CHAZ "security" murdered that kid. That's the REALLY scary one.

PS, it's not an accidental discharge, it's a negligent discharge.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Source? That sounds made up.


I posted the comment or information here within minutes of hearing it. (10 hours ago)
I visited the CPAC website this morning to see if I could find the video, but could not "easily" find it.
I am not sure if it was a Senate or Parliamentary hearing.
I was surprised too and thought it was a high number.
In my search for inormation, I did find this, but for 2017.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

ABC news spinning the violent riots:

"Protestors in California set fire to courthouse, damaged a police station, and assaulted officers after a peaceful demonstration intensified."

A "peaceful demonstration intensified" 🤣 🤣


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

If tensions and anger (plus resentment) escalate on the American Stage, we could have large "Gangs" (Wearing middle class suits) of unemployed folks looking for scalps.

Millions and millions of protesters who own no property and with less than 1 thousand dollars in the bank are cheering the protesters on. They are just loving it. Revolution is in the air and not just tear gas.

Those who own property are using any excuse to use military force against those with pitch forks. Those who own property are more concerned about State's Rights,

The Ruling Class are trying to buy time so that they can get the ducks in order.

The Ruling Class can fight small fires and perhaps control the streets for a few more months, but the human energy needed to shield against pitch forks is huge.

Sooner or later ....... Somebody has to win .

Negotiate and sue for peace.

How much energy is the Ruling Class prepared to spend?

We already know that the stock market does not need workers. The Ruling Class could just simply block all roads leading to the White House and sit tight. The stock market would be booming as more people stayed home under military rule. The more unemployment, the higher the markets rise.

The Ruling Class can all stay at the beach because they own the printing press.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> Sooner or later ....... Somebody has to win .
> 
> Negotiate and sue for peace.


You're right, and democracy and western civilization won.

If they don't stop it will end badly for them.
Once the food trucks will stop coming they'll starve themselves out in a few weeks.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

You reply with the "Democracy" claim.
It is all the fault of protesters.
They need to work within the system ...... not riot.
These ideas have been around since Occupy Wall Street Protests. (10 years)
Millions and Millions of the Under Class are totally angry and just as determined to get social investment today as the Upper Class was to get their tax cuts before Trump left office.

Lets pretend that there are 10 million "Totally Committed" protesters. Now imagine that 250 thousand are mental cases and totally disallusioned with the Capitalist System?

It is going to be a rough ride. That is why I always talk about negotiation.
Refusing to negotiate is just a brutal power play by the The Ruling Class.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> You reply with the "Democracy" claim.
> It is all the fault of protesters.
> They need to work within the system ...... not riot.
> These ideas have been around since Occupy Wall Street Protests. (10 years)
> ...


No, the problem is the rioters.

The ideas have been around a lot longer than the Occupy Wall Street Protests.
They were dumb ideas then, and they're dumb ideas now.

Are you actually suggesting that 3% of the US population should be able to tell the other 97% how to live?

There is negotiation, it happens in the Congress and Senate, as well as at the state and city level.
That's our democratic system, that negotiation IS happening.

The problem is these losers don't like that their idea were rejected.

They're not asking for social investment. They're demanding a total destruction of modern civilization. They are just starting with the destruction of the democratic process.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

It is more than 3 percent of the population which support these protests.
At least 40 percent and growing.

The Secret Shame of Middle-Class Americans
Nearly half of Americans would have trouble finding $400 to pay for an emergency. I’m one of them.
By Neal Gabler
May 2016 Issue








The Secret Shame of Middle-Class Americans Living Paycheck to Paycheck


Nearly half of Americans would have trouble finding $400 to pay for an emergency. I’m one of them.




www.theatlantic.com





Ain't the Capitalist System just great ?


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Americans are always said to be a "Smart People".
All Russia had to do was spend a hundred thousand dollars on advertising at Facebook and Trump was elected.

Americans being so smart that 40 or 50 million people have less than 400 bucks in the bank ..... are you suggesting that these people "Voted" for a tax cut for the rich rather than give it to those with no money themselves? How smart is that?

Are you telling me that democracy works for them?

There are 150 million workers in America. Are you suggesting that more half of them voted "Democratically" to bail out the banks in 2007 or bail them out again this past April?

Are you teling me that Americans are so smart that they always vote against their own interests?

Or does Democracy give a louder and more meaningful vote to the Upper Classes and property owners?

Property owners always vote for their own interests but when poor people do it, it is called Communism. Radical and against American "Values".


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> It is more than 3 percent of the population which support these protests.
> At least 40 percent and growing.
> 
> The Secret Shame of Middle-Class Americans
> ...


Yeah it IS great. That's the thing you're missing.

The big problem is that people are financially irresponsible.

Over 85% of Americans have an income higher than the global average. 


Oh, if even an elite award winning author such as Neal Gabler can't figure out how to save $400, it's seems very likely that there is a serious financial literacy problem.
Which isn't surprising, if they were even slightly literate, they'd understand how stupid their occupy and socialist ideas are.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

calm said:


> Ain't the Capitalist System just great ?


Communism fails every time, so Capitalism is the only system left.

ltr


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Most poor people are poor because they were financially irresponsible?
It is all their fault. 
Oprah Winfry got popular using that propaganda.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

like_to_retire said:


> Communism fails every time, so Capitalism is the only system left.


.
My view:

Socialism must be an Okay system when we realize that the Capitalists find it such a threat to their very existence.

So what if another country on the globe wants to enjoy a Socialist form of government? What harm does it do to outsiders?

But, each time any attempt is made at introducing socialism, the Capitalist's go on the attack and encourage a coup. Sanctions are imposed and the media demonizes or ridicules the socialist leadership.

If a socialist system was doomed to failure from the start, then why don't the Capitalists just sit back and watch it collapse on it's own?

The truth must be that Socialism is a successful system and it is only that the Capitalists are deathly afraid of a competing system, so they gotta nip it in the bud and demonize it before it's contagion.

The irony is .... that the Capitalists have a "Socialist" military establishment and where every soldier's fortune is based upon socialism from craddle to grave .... and they use these "Socialist" soldiers to attack "Socialism" itself.

I chuckle aloud at the irony as I watch the military and police establishment stand at the barricades defending Capitalism or dropping bombs to promote Capitalism, while the military and police themselves are/enjoy the purest form of socialism in the universe.

The difference between the NDP and the other two major political parties is that when the NDP introduce a social program and write the cheque, 100% goes to the citizen ...

When the other two parties write the cheque, it is given to corporations first and they take a 25% cut as management fee.

The Liberals and Conservatives then ask the corporations for a 10% refund of monies given to corporations as management fees in the form of campaign contributions.

The NDP always invests the full dollar into social programs and the Liberals and Conservatives offer only 75 cents after management fees.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> Socialism must be an Okay system when we realize that the Capitalists find it such a threat to their very existence.


Dictatorships must be an okay system when we realize that the Democrats find it such a threat to their very existance.

The problem with Socialism isn't as much that it's a threat to Capitalism, it's that it's always resulted in extreme pain and sufferering to the people.

The only reason I'm a fan of Capitalism is because it's the best system we've found yet.

I was a big fan of Incandescent lights, until we developed LED lights, now I'm a big fan of LED lighting.

You come up with a better system than Capitalism, I'll be glad to move to it.
Socialism however is arguably one of the worst and most evil systems ever created.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

The U.S. Capitalist System is not exact - true "Text Book Capitalism"
The Socialism that I envision is not an exact - true "Text Book Socialism"

You seem to say that the present "System" is suitable. Nothing to get upset about.
Maybe you could handle some minor-minor tweaks?
But don't rock the boat because you are doing Okay. (Tax Cuts Included.)
It is not that you are greedy.
You just like the "Game" called Capitalism.

when the Lower Class ask for social investment, they are greedy Communists.
And worse ..... Uneducated Greedy Socialists.

I think that this is a Perfect Storm event.
I think there is going to be a huge upheaval.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> The U.S. Capitalist System is not an exact true "Text Book Capitalism"
> The Socialism that I envision is not an exact true "Text Book Socialism"
> 
> You seem to say that the present "System" is suitable. Nothing to get upset about.
> ...


No, I'm saying that the current system is the best we've been able to come up with so far.
Present a better one, and I'll be glad to switch, present a worse system and I'll reject it.
It could use some major tweaks.
Don't sink the boat, I'm okay with rocking it a bit.

Of course I "like" capitalism, it's responsible for raising the quality of life of billions of people around the world.
Think about that, billions of people have better lives today due to capitalism, don't you like that?

You seem to want a system you can't describe.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

like_to_retire said:


> You mean like these peaceful NFAC protesters in Kentucky?
> 
> View attachment 20402


I've seen groups like this (right wing militias) marching through the streets of Portland when I lived there. Groups of white men carrying guns, in camo gear, dressed like a military platoon.

America is a crazy place. Groups of white armed militias march around. Groups of black armed militias march around too.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Please spell out for me, because I don't understand. What bothers you about this group?


*THEY SHOT 3 PEOPLE!!!!*


See Post #133 in this thread








White House attacking city of Portland


I remember the huge story which happened in Yellowknife NWT. Maybe what I should of said or more properly said was that you seem to be happy with the status quo. No real need or urgency to negotiate unless the protesters walk away? That the idea itself (social workers) will not work. Okay ...




www.canadianmoneyforum.com


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> No, I'm saying that the current system is the best we've been able to come up with so far.
> You seem to want a system you can't describe.


.
I can handle a life within a Capitalist System. I don't know or I can't really compare any other country which practices Socialism ..... Probably because the American Capitalists bombed the countries back into the Stone Age.

These protesters are not asking to toss out the system.
The protesters are not suicidal. They are not out to destroy the Capitalist System.
They are asking for a few tweaks.

Another day, and I keep asking why the media is not talking about negotiating these "Tweaks".

Who are the campaign fundraisers who sent Trump money this past week which would suggest they approve of Cops Beating Poor People.
These Corporations and financiers should be exposed and ridiculed.

Who are encouraging these military raids?

A Democracy where the U.S. Capitalist's are funneling billions into this election cycle though Anonymous Pac's, and then complain that some person might vote with a fraudulent name.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> .
> I can handle a life within a Capitalist System. I don't know or I can't really compare any other country which practices Socialism ..... Probably because the American Capitalists bombed the countries back into the Stone Age.
> 
> These protesters are not asking to toss out the system.
> ...


Yes they are out to toss out the system.
Founders of BLM specifically have come out claiming they're Marxists.

Rioting in the streets isn't the place to have these discussions.
The elected representatives should debate and negotiate among themselves.

History shows us when they're pushing good ideas, like civil rights, peaceful protest can work.

The real "problem" these protestors have is that their ideas are bad.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> THEY SHOT 3 PEOPLE!!!!


You're misrepresenting it. You're trying to make it sound like they went out and attacked, shot at people.

Not true.

One of them accidentally discharged the weapon, and people inside the same group were hurt. Everyone injured was also part of NFAC.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> You're misrepresenting it. You're trying to make it sound like they went out and attacked, shot at people.
> 
> Not true.
> 
> One of them accidentally discharged the weapon, and people inside the same group were hurt. Is that not the case?


I am not "misrepresenting it".

One of them discharged a firearm at a protest hitting 3 people.
I do not believe in "accidental" discharge, at best this was grossly negligent.

On the AR-15 or AK47 platform firearm, the safeties are designed such they're hard to accidentally disengage.
Also unless you're planning on discharging, there really is no reason to go in with a cocked rifle, with the safety off.

As they say "play stupid games, win stupid prizes"

If you did this in the military, you'd be charged, I know a guy who did this with blanks during training, and was rightly brought up on charges.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

james4beach said:


> You're misrepresenting it. You're trying to make it sound like they went out and attacked, shot at people.
> 
> Not true.
> 
> One of them accidentally discharged the weapon, and people inside the same group were hurt. Everyone injured was also part of NFAC.



James, James, James. You have nothing here to hang your hat on that NFAC are just a nice group of well intentioned peaceful protesters looking to negotiate. Oh gee, one of them accidentally discharged their weapon, OK no problem. 

Let's look at a picture of the group in Kentucky again. If I saw that on my street, what would I think. Stop defending them.










ltr


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

calm said:


> Americans being so smart that 40 or 50 million people have less than 400 bucks in the bank ..... are you suggesting that these people "Voted" for a tax cut for the rich rather than give it to those with no money themselves? How smart is that?


Actually, under Trump taxes went up for the rich and the middle and lower classes got a tax cut. You don't know that. You must have listened to the media. How smart is that?


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The US is buried under socialism, so it a real hoot when the capitalists rag on about how bad it is.

The Fed is buying US debt by the Trillions of dollars. Social Security, Medicare, food stamps, stimulus packages, are all examples of socialist policies.

People who rave on about how bad socialism is don't even know it is already propping up a failing capitalist system that would collapse without it.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> James, James, James. You have nothing here to hang your hat on that NFAC are just a nice group of well intentioned peaceful protesters looking to negotiate. Oh gee, one of them accidentally discharged their weapon, OK no problem.
> 
> Let's look at a picture of the group in Kentucky again. If I saw that on my street, what would I think. Stop defending them.
> 
> ...


Good.......people aren't relying on the US government to defend them anymore. 

The right wing zealots won't be able to show up armed at peaceful protests to bully and intimate unarmed people anymore.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

sags said:


> Good.......people aren't relying on the US government to defend them anymore.


OK, so now we know SAGS supports untrained citizens in large packs with automatic weapons in the streets, that seem to have a proclivity of shooting each other in the foot.

ltr


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

like_to_retire said:


> Let's look at a picture of the group in Kentucky again. If I saw that on my street, what would I think. Stop defending them.
> 
> View attachment 20408


Are you kidding me? I watched armed right-wing militias march down Portland streets on more than one occasion when I lived there. The media never even covered it.

The first time I saw the white guys marching with guns, I turned to a stranger on the street and actually asked: "WTF is this? WTF is going on?"

On one occasion, armed right wingers brought their rifles downtown, and some of them set up a vantage point on a rooftop -- near my office -- with their weapons. Basically a sniper position.

I posted at CMF at the time and most of you right wingers laughed at me. You said I'm over reacting, it's no big deal.

So.... why is it scary when black people do the same? You're only reacting like this because they are black.

I'll tell you the same thing that CMF'ers told me when I told you about white guys marching with guns: *it's no big deal, don't over react. This is their right.*


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> Good.......people aren't relying on the US government to defend them anymore.
> 
> The right wing zealots won't be able to show up armed at peaceful protests to bully and intimate unarmed people anymore.


Black protesters have a far better reason to march around with guns than white militias (who do it all the time).

I'm not a fan of guns, but the USA does allow it and it's their constitutional right. I posted earlier to remind everyone that Ted Cruz says Americans need guns to keep an oppressive government in check.

Ted Cruz would approve and cheer on these black protesters and their right to bear arms. Police which break laws, which violate civil liberties, and which are operating without any accountability, plus a federal government which is over stepping its role and suppressing dissenters is *EXACTLY* why Americans are supposed to have guns.

The NRA says so. Ted Cruz says so. Republicans say so.

Hell, I'll bet that Mr Matt's circles say so too... except they were envisaging white conservatives holding the guns, not black men.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

james4beach said:


> So.... why is it scary when black people do the same? You're only reacting like this because they are black.


Really, I don't mention the color of anyone in my posts. It's you that seems to mention it time and time again. I just talk about citizens with guns and that scares me.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Black protesters have a far better reason to march around with guns than white militias (who do it all the time).
> 
> I'm not a fan of guns, but the USA does allow it and it's their constitutional right. I posted earlier to remind everyone that Ted Cruz says Americans need guns to keep an oppressive government in check.
> 
> ...


I'm all for protestors exercising their constitutional rights.

However you asked what I thought about that group. Remember your question.


> "Please spell out for me, because I don't understand. What bothers you about this group?"


I told you, I don't like the fact that that group shot 3 people.
That's it.
It's nothing political
It's nothing racial.
It's the simple fact that they shot people. 

I didn't say anything about the NFAC march near Atlanta, WHERE THEY WEREN'T SHOOTING PEOPLE.

Now james, your statements are very clearly an accusation that I, or those I associate with are racist.
I've never made a racist statement on this forum, and since you have absolutely no evidence to support this slur against me, I think such a personal attack is unwarranted in a civil discussion.

That being said, I think the troubling thing is that you actually think everyone is racist.
You post a group that is shooting people, but assume that we're all judging them on based their race, rather than their actions.

I'll tell you something that the racist left simply doesn't understand. Most people don't care about race, we care about their actions.
Just like a thief thinks everyone else is a thief, and a liar thinks everyone else is a liar.
I think the reason you think everyone is racist, is because you're projecting. You see a photo of a person and you see their race first, not that they're an individual person, who should be considered on their own.

Now I'm not blaming you, but your unconscious bias is impairing your ability to function in society. You don't even seem to realize that you're seeing race first and foremost, and are unable to see the person.

I do hope you seek some sort of help to come to grips with your racism.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> I'm all for protestors exercising their constitutional rights.
> 
> However you asked what I thought about that group. Remember your question.
> 
> ...


And yet, when there were armed right wing militias marching through Portland (they've done this for several years), and then going off to also beat up some people in skirmishes on the side ... silence.

so:

(A) Armed white militias marching through Portland, setting up sniper positions on building roof tops, and beating up residents of the city: silence.

(B) Armed black militias marching around, accidentally discharging their weapons and injuring some of their own -- and you show up with something to say.


I wrote about (A) many times on this board. All I heard from conservatives at CMF were laughs, saying it was no big deal, nothing to see. Virtually no media coverage of it either. These two cases (A) vs (B) are quite comparable in how frightening it is for the population but I am pointing out that _right leaning conservative at CMF_ do not think much of (A) but certainly think something of (B).

MrMatt: would you like me to pull up some of the old threads and remind you what you, Eder, and various other conservatives wrote back then?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> And yet, when there were armed right wing militias marching through Portland (they've done this for several years), and then going off to also beat up some people in skirmishes on the side ... silence.
> 
> so:
> 
> ...


You didn't ask me about A, so I didn't comment on A. 
You did ask me about B so I commented on B. 

I disapprove of anyone physically attacking anyone. 
We both know you're not going to pull up anything that racist I said.
1. You're too lazy to back up your other claims with evidence. 
2. It's not there.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Prairie Guy said:


> Actually, under Trump taxes went up for the rich and the middle and lower classes got a tax cut. You don't know that. You must have listened to the media. How smart is that?


.
Reduction in corporate tax rates from 35-20%


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> James, James, James. You have nothing here to hang your hat on that NFAC are just a nice group of well intentioned peaceful protesters looking to negotiate. Oh gee, one of them accidentally discharged their weapon, OK no problem.
> 
> Let's look at a picture of the group in Kentucky again. If I saw that on my street, what would I think. Stop defending them.
> 
> ...


This is a consequence of gun worship in the US. I think this is crazy.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Here's a good video from PBS:
How Fascism Works: A Warning for the U.S. | Amanpour and Company

The guest points out that DHS is a national institution that was originally intended to protect the country from bad foreigners. When that same institution is turned on the domestic population, and used for political purposes by the leader (that's Portland) then you have a really big problem.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Look, James tries to change the topic again. I knew he wouldn't back up the lastest batch of false accusations either.
The sad reality is that there are legitimate issues and concerns.

However as those protests shift to violent mobs and rioting, support for the protests, and the issues they're raising falls.

The reality is
1. The city & state governments are not stopping violent riots.
2. The city & state governments defunding and/or pulling back their police, which is resulting in massive crime spikes.
3. The Federal governments deployments are legal.
4. False accusations of Federal behaviour are being promoted on line and in mainstream media, but there is NO evidence they're actually happening.

There appears to be an effort to inflame tensions and hurt people.
It isn't facist to suggest it's bad to burn down buildings and shoot people.

The type of false accusations that people like James make only server to further divide us.
He's accuse law enforcement of attacking cities.
He's slandered concerned people of being racist, for the great crime of not seeing things his way.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The cities have their own city police, State police and National Guard to call upon if needed.

They don't want or need the Trump administration sending in federal law enforcement. It would be different if the cities and States asked for help.

They aren't and this is all political posturing for Trump to appear as a "law and order" leader, to deflect from his failures of leadership on other issues.

James is questioning the unheard of political use of law enforcement into areas they weren't invited, and he is right in doing so.

Alt right groups are infiltrating peaceful protests trying to stir up public animosity. It isn't working so Trump sent in the troops.

Trump continues his descent in the polls. Safe haven Republican States are now favoring Joe Biden. Americans have awoken and want Trump gone.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

calm said:


> .
> Reduction in corporate tax rates from 35-20%


People forget or don't know that years ago corporate and wealth tax rates were much higher than today, and yet economies and societies prospered.

It is a fairly recent phenomena that tax rates have been lowered to today's low levels.

They have been lowered too much by business friendly politicians collecting political contributions, and governments are starved for revenue.

Governments have been incurring debt to make up the shortfall. This cannot continue and tax rates must increase and loopholes closed.

It is absolutely ridiculous that some of the most prosperous corporations pay little or no taxes at all.

Both US politicial parties are guilty, because politicians from both have been on the corporate dole for decades and do their bidding.

These protests are about systemic racism, but they are also about inequality and the wealth divide. Fix it.........or watch society crumble.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The cities have their own city police, State police and National Guard to call upon if needed.


Yes, and it's irresponsible that they haven't used them.



> They don't want or need the Trump administration sending in federal law enforcement. It would be different if the cities and States asked for help.


They aren't protecting Federal property, so the Federal government has to.



> They aren't and this is all political posturing for Trump to appear as a "law and order" leader, to deflect from his failures of leadership on other issues.


Ok



> James is questioning the unheard of political use of law enforcement into areas they weren't invited, and he is right in doing so.


Since when do police need to be "invited" to do their job in their jurisdiction.



> Alt right groups are infiltrating peaceful protests trying to stir up public animosity. It isn't working so Trump sent in the troops.
> 
> Trump continues his descent in the polls. Safe haven Republican States are now favoring Joe Biden. Americans have awoken and want Trump gone.


That's because Joe is in hiding.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

calm said:


> .
> Reduction in corporate tax rates from 35-20%


That just brought corporate taxes in line with most the rest of the world to provide a level playing field. Corporations are not "rich people".

He also reduced taxes for the lower and middle classes, and drastically lowered the federal property tax exemption which made the rich pay more.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> These protests are about systemic racism, but they are also about inequality and the wealth divide. Fix it.........or watch society crumble.


I agree, they're about ignorance and jealousy and greed.
They're blaming a system they don't understand for things that aren't happening, based on a misinterpretation of the outcomes.

I don't think they have any intent on educating themselves.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

james4beach said:


> Here's a good video from PBS:


-
JASON STANLEY: So, it turns out what really takes genius and strength is democracy, not fascism. How much genius and strength does it take to say, the immigrants are coming for your women, you have to protect your women? How much genius does it take to repeat these old tropes of American racism that black men on streets threaten your wives and daughters? That doesn’t take genius. That just takes repeating narratives that are deeply familiar. I think what takes genius and what takes strength of character and intelligence is saying, OK, I want this, you want something else, let’s compromise. That takes genius and strength of character. The analogy we need to draw and is repeatedly done in the literature on fascism from Hannah Arendt to the Frankfurt School, is between a mob boss and a fascist leader. Remember, fascism is about — about loyalty and power. So the mob boss repeatedly puts their family members, friends and business associates into positions of power, because any competent person is a threat to them. Reality is a threat to them. It’s all about loyalty. So, how much of an evil genius do you really need to be to be a mob boss?








How Fascism Works: A Warning for the U.S.


Jason Stanley is a professor of philosophy at Yale University, and in his new book "How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them," he explores the inner mechanics of fascism and the forces that drive dictatorships. Stanley joins Hari Sreenivasan to explain his concern at signs of fascism on...



www.pbs.org


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> -
> JASON STANLEY: So, it turns out what really takes genius and strength is democracy, not fascism. How much genius and strength does it take to say, the immigrants are coming for your women, you have to protect your women? How much genius does it take to repeat these old tropes of American racism that black men on streets threaten your wives and daughters? That doesn’t take genius. That just takes repeating narratives that are deeply familiar. I think what takes genius and what takes strength of character and intelligence is saying, OK, I want this, you want something else, let’s compromise. That takes genius and strength of character. The analogy we need to draw and is repeatedly done in the literature on fascism from Hannah Arendt to the Frankfurt School, is between a mob boss and a fascist leader. Remember, fascism is about — about loyalty and power. So the mob boss repeatedly puts their family members, friends and business associates into positions of power, because any competent person is a threat to them. Reality is a threat to them. It’s all about loyalty. So, how much of an evil genius do you really need to be to be a mob boss?
> 
> 
> ...


You're arguing against statements nobody is saying.
Nobody said immigrants are coming for your woman or that black men are out threatening wives and daughters.

Sure there are racists who believe that, but it's not even close to a mainstream opinion.

Now if you're talking about illegal immigrants and the issues there, Trump made statements echoing the claims of Amnesty International.
Sexual assault of migrants from Latin America to the United States - Wikipedia
"Amnesty International reported in 2010 that the proportion of women and girls who are sexually assaulted over the course of their journey might be as high as 60%."

Don't you find it at least a little troubling that women and girls are subject to that level of sexual violence?
If you don't think a 60% rate of sexual violence against women is a serious problem, YOU are the problem.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Got no money for Social Investments .....

Coronavirus relief package For Israel .....

Tweet:
By Anthony Wier
"$686 million in the coronavirus relief package to buy F-35’s. $1.1 billion for a P-8. $243 million for missile defense radars. $66 million for hypersonic missile defense. Scientists worry about airborne transmission of the virus—but I don’t think that’s quite what they meant."
July 27, 2020

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287894773601316864


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> Got no money for Social Investments .....


The only people advocating to cut social investment are these protestors.

Cue the alternative definition of "defund"


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Racists don't like to be called out on their racism. It hurts their credibility when they seek to convince others of the rightfulness of their ideology.

They hide behind a telephone pole..........but we can still see them.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Racists don't like to be called out on their racism. It hurts their credibility when they seek to convince others of the rightfulness of their ideology.
> 
> They hide behind a telephone pole..........but we can still see them.



The racists are literally rioting in the streets in Portland and several other cities.


If they're trying to hide, they're doing a very bad job.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

I know that the media talks about racism all the time ......
But when I look at the protesters I am not looking at the colour.
I am looking at how determined these human beings all seem to be.
In this instance, I could care less about what colour/race/religion the protesters are.
Are we next going to discuss if the blouse matches the skirt?
I want to hear about negotiating the demands.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> I know that the media talks about racism all the time ......
> But when I look at the protesters I am not looking at the colour.
> I am looking at how determined these human beings all seem to be.
> In this instance, I could care less about what colour/race/religion the protesters are.
> ...


?? What does their colour have to do with them being racist?

Are they advocating for racist policies, if so, they're racist.
If they're taking actions to hurt a particular race, they're racist.

When they demand actions that are inherently racist, and only serve to harm minorities, that's racist.

To be fair, they also have a lot of other bad ideas that aren't racist.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

If it were not for the commentary in TV Land, I would never consider the protesters to be racist.
I do see some idiots. But they come in all colours.
Do the protesters look racist to you or just determined?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> If it were not for the commentary in TV Land, I would never consider the protesters to be racist.
> I do see some idiots. But they come in all colours.
> Do the protesters look racist to you or just determined?


"Look Racist", no, how can you tell if someone is racist by looking at them?

Pushing an agenda that will result in disproportionate harm to the black community, absolutely.
The biggest threat to the black community today is the messages and policies being pushed by these protestors.

As far as media, you have CNN denying that BLM is even about saving black lives.

Again, they do have some good ideas, and everyone agrees with the good ideas.
They have some debatable ideas, and some VERY bad ideas.

The worst idea is "defund the police"
You have to be a special kind of stupid to think it's a good idea to let lawlessness reign.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

We wear different lenses in our glasses I guess.
Maybe if the cops keep beating protesters we all could be wearing "Contact" lenses.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

calm said:


> We wear different lenses in our glasses I guess.
> Maybe if the cops keep beating protesters we all could be wearing "Contact" lenses.


I still think cops should be careful about beating and gassing so many people. Whether it's local police or federal police, they are all over-stepping their authority and are failing to be accountable.

The people may therefore seek ways to make them accountable. The jobs of police, the *pensions*, etc are all ultimately in the public hands and I think the police should think a bit harder before biting the hands which feed them.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> We wear different lenses in our glasses I guess.
> Maybe if the cops keep beating protesters we all could be wearing "Contact" lenses.


Please don't conflate the peaceful protestors with the violent rioters.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Please don't conflate the peaceful protestors with the violent rioters.


Why are you so committed to this lie? The peaceful protesters are getting abused by police. People who are just standing, yelling, and exercising their constitutional rights are being gassed and beaten by police.

The violence just about entirely originates from the police.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

james4beach said:


> The people may therefore seek ways to make them accountable.


This "Crowds" in different cities around the country todayu are so much larger than those that I remember in the 60's and 70's.
The "Crowds" brought the country to it's knees in the Nixon era.
Because of the huge size of these protests happening today, negotiations will need to happen quickly.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Why are you so committed to this lie?


What lie?
That while there are violent rioters, there are also peaceful protesters?
Sorry, I reject the idea that they are all violent rioters.

I believe that many protesters are attempting to engage in legitimate peaceful protest, and that police violence against those people is wrong. I am sorry you disagree.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Lots of non-rioters on the receiving end of unwarranted police violence. There was the video of a young man shot in the face with a 'less lethal' round for standing still while holding a speaker, requiring facial reconstructive surgery. Where are the assault charges?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Lots of non-rioters on the receiving end of unwarranted police violence. There was the video of a young man shot in the face with a 'less lethal' round for standing still while holding a speaker, requiring facial reconstructive surgery. Where are the assault charges?


Did you see the cop shooting people standing on their porch a month ago.

The whole situation is a mess.
There are problems with some police, but there are also problems with the activists and rioters.

Some people can't seem to understand that there is bad behaviour from BOTH SIDES, but that there are mostly good well intentioned people on both sides.
Instead they want to make broad generalizations like one side is all right or wrong, when it's really way more complicated than that.

If you think it's okay for police to walk out and shoot protesters, you're wrong.
If you think it's okay to burn down the courthouse, you're wrong.

If you think it's okay to peacefully protest, you're right.
If you think it's okay to arrest people attacking police officers, you're right.

The real problem is the extremists who refuse to accept reality and want to pretend it's a single binary situation, one side's right, one side's wrong. 
That's the BIG problem.
I've even been slammed for watching "right wing media", yeah I do, I also watch "left wing media", I'm actually trying to understand what's going on.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> Lots of non-rioters on the receiving end of unwarranted police violence. There was the video of a young man shot in the face with a 'less lethal' round for standing still while holding a speaker, requiring facial reconstructive surgery. Where are the assault charges?


Right. The man standing still with a boom box, shot in the head, fracturing his skull. (_article & video_)

The Navy veteran standing still, when police started beating him with metal batons and pepper spray. (_video_)

The Mayor of Portland, standing in a crowd and observing that the crowd was doing nothing -- no offensive movement at all -- when police gassed them.

As these incidents pile up, people realize that these aren't violent protesters or anarchists. Instead they are regular citizens, doing the honourable (and legal) thing by protesting. But they are being attacked and suppressed by police.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> As these incidents pile up, people realize that these aren't violent protesters or anarchists. Instead they are regular citizens, doing the honourable (and legal) thing by protesting. But they are being attacked and suppressed by police.


Some are, some aren't, there's evidence of both.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Some are, some aren't, there's evidence of both.


There definitely are some violent and nasty troublemakers out there.

But let's also be clear: chanting slogans is not violence, and yelling and marching is not violence either. I've seen some media coverage that called the protests violent / out of control, while showing behaviours on video which are perfectly legal and protected.

What's illegal and must be stopped are things like: setting fires and injuring officers with projectiles.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> There definitely are some violent and nasty troublemakers out there.
> 
> But let's also be clear: chanting slogans is not violence, and yelling and marching is not violence either. I've seen some media coverage that called the protests violent / out of control, while showing behaviours on video which are perfectly legal and protected.
> 
> What's illegal and must be stopped are things like: setting fires and injuring officers with projectiles.


I agree. That's what I've been saying THE WHOLE TIME. 
I also draw a distinction between the first group, peaceful protesters, and the violent rioters (not protesters) in the second.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288148113157435396


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

“Anarchist” Is Not An Insult

"....He’s got a lot of nerve, that guy. He’s a head of state. Or, in more accurate English, a second-rate mafia don, chieftain of an overgrown street gang with delusions of grandeur."

"....Trump and his ilk steal more wealth, destroy more property, and kill more of the people they claim to serve in any given week than all the anarchists in history combined. Then they try to shift the blame onto their victims and onto the anarchists who stand up for those victims."

“[W]hether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain — that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist.”

By Thomas L. Knapp
July 27, 2020








“Anarchist” Is Not An Insult


“These are anarchists, these are not protesters,” US president Donald Trump said on July 20th, defending his decision to unleash Department of Homeland Security hooligans on anti-police…



thegarrisoncenter.org


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> “Anarchist” Is Not An Insult
> 
> "....He’s got a lot of nerve, that guy. He’s a head of state. Or, in more accurate English, a second-rate mafia don, chieftain of an overgrown street gang with delusions of grandeur."
> 
> ...


Okay, that's a blatant troll, I'm not playing.
You're on ignore. bye


----------



## 5Lgreenback (Mar 21, 2015)

Theres plenty of blame on both sides. Plenty of the "peaceful" protesters are taunting the police non stop. Lots of "peaceful" protesters were chanting "ACAB- All Cops Are Bastards" as well as throwing projectiles at police. I

The MSM coverage of this is awful, their narrative is clear, the protesters and rioters are to be portrayed as the good guys and the victims at all costs. 

I can sympathize with the protesters and can understand their frustration. But this movement has been hijacked by extreme left ideals that use "racism" as they're cover to tear down a society and enforce child like identity politics power structures. They have a history of destroying anyone who dares to question the movement or its motives, particularly liberal intellectuals. IE Brett Wienstien and the Evergreen college incident.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

I thought that the “Anarchist” Is Not An Insult was a pretty good commentary.
It was entertaining. It was straight forward.
I only wish I could of expressed myself that well.
That is why I posted the commentary.
I guess I could of read the article and then reworded the thoughts or pretend they were mine, but that would be like cheating.








“Anarchist” Is Not An Insult


“These are anarchists, these are not protesters,” US president Donald Trump said on July 20th, defending his decision to unleash Department of Homeland Security hooligans on anti-police…



thegarrisoncenter.org


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

“Defendant Shall Not Attend Protests”: In Portland, Getting Out of Jail Requires Relinquishing Constitutional Rights
A dozen protesters facing federal charges are barred from going to “public gatherings” as a condition of release from jail — a tactic one expert described as “sort of hilariously unconstitutional.”

“Those terms were given to me after being in a holding cell after 14 hours,” Bailey Dreibelbis, who was charged July 24 with “failing to obey a lawful order,” told ProPublica. “It was pretty cut-and-dried, just, ‘These are your conditions for [getting out] of here.’
“If I didn’t take it, I would still be in holding. It wasn’t really an option, in my eyes.”

Over the past week, the federal government has sharply increased the number of protesters it’s charging with federal crimes — often for petty offenses that are classified as federal misdemeanors only because they occur on federal property. Court documents reviewed by ProPublica show that over a third of the protesters are charged with “failing to obey a lawful order,” which 14 protesters were charged with between July 21 and July 24 alone.
By Dara Lind
July 28, 2020








“Defendant Shall Not Attend Protests”: In Portland, Getting Out of Jail Requires Relinquishing Constitutional Rights


A dozen protesters facing federal charges are barred from going to “public gatherings” as a condition of release from jail — a tactic one expert described as “sort of hilariously unconstitutional.”




www.propublica.org


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Antifa is trying to kill feds. Petty.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288062611410391040


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

calm said:


> “Defendant Shall Not Attend Protests”: In Portland, Getting Out of Jail Requires Relinquishing Constitutional Rights
> A dozen protesters facing federal charges are barred from going to “public gatherings” as a condition of release from jail — a tactic one expert described as “sort of hilariously unconstitutional.”


This is Trump's federal government trying to illegally suppress dissent. In theory, the laws of the United States should be preventing that kind of suppression of individual freedoms. In practice, we'll see.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> This is Trump's federal government trying to illegally suppress dissent. In theory, the laws of the United States should be preventing that kind of suppression of individual freedoms. In practice, we'll see.


Please provide evidence. But we all know you won't.
You've been making wild claims for days, and refused to back any of them up.
Federal law enforcement is trying to protect Federal buildings.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

james4beach said:


> This is Trump's federal government trying to illegally suppress dissent. In theory, the laws of the United States should be preventing that kind of suppression of individual freedoms. In practice, we'll see.


Trump is desperate to do anything to turn the election around. Adding to his desperation is his delusional mindset and visions of self grandeur.

In the middle of a COVID crisis, he is trying to force a new FBI building being built in Washington across the street from his hotel........so no hotel competitors can ever build there. He has lost all concept of time and space and is living inside his own head. He goes golfing and rails on about Dr. Fauci being more popular than he is. He says wear a mask........don't wear a mask. He is back to the hydro miracle drug nonsense. I think he is close to a total mental breakdown.

The Republicans are peeling away from him as the end draws nigh. He likely will become more confused and erratic as they continue to abandon him.

Trump lives in fear of the day after he leaves the protection of the Presidency, and he likely has good reason to.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Please provide evidence. But we all know you won't.
> You've been making wild claims for days, and refused to back any of them up.
> Federal law enforcement is trying to protect Federal buildings.


Here's your evidence, smart guy.



> One video shows the protester holding a speaker while standing across the street from the courthouse between two parked cars.


Federal law enforcement is acting beyond the boundary of the federal buildings. That includes shooting tear gas into the streets, which affects residents far beyond the federal building. In this case they shot a man in the head. He was standing on a city street, across the street from the federal building.

Clearly, a man standing across the street is not anywhere close to putting the federal building in danger. He's not lighting a fire at its base, he's not hurling bricks at the windows. He's playing music and standing motionless across the street.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

More cops have died in the riots than people by cops. More innocent people have been killed by Antifa and BLM than innocent people by cops.

james can't find any footage of those incidents because he's too busy hiding under his desk from imaginary white supremacists while alt-left Antifa terrorizes the entire town and kills innocent people with full support from Democrat mayors and governors.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Here's your evidence, smart guy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You've posted that video before, did you even watch it?
Your summary doesn't match the article summary or what happened.

They're defending the court house. That building in the background COURTHOUSE!
You can argue it's excessive force, but that's a different argument.

He wasn't just playing music, he allegedly threw tear gas at the police, sure looks like that's what he did.
Guess what, it's a bad idea to throw **** at police.

How many days has it been, and you've shown no evidence to back up your claims.
Here you have a person throwing tear gas at police at the courthouse, and getting shot with less lethal weapons.
Big hint, don't throw **** at cops.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Back to why NFAC Kentucky is scary.
The leader doesn't know what he's doing.







So yeah, I'm against a group that
1. Doesn't know how their guns work.
2. Shoots people.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Push back starting..Residents are driving Black Lives Matter protesters out of Springfield, Oregon.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288697651941146626


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

A mere 6% of Portland’s population is black. Yet the killing of George Floyd inspired a nearly all white cohort in that city to take to the streets.
Waging a sustained attack against this system and all of its manifestations of injustice ..... say good-bye to establishment notions of what is acceptable and what is not.

Help Me Find Trump’s ‘Anarchists’ in Portland
The president has his politically driven narrative. And then there’s reality.
I’ve been on the front lines of the protests here, searching for the “radical-left anarchists” who President Trump says are on Portland streets each evening.
I thought I’d found one: a man who for weeks leapt into the fray and has been shot four times with impact munitions yet keeps coming back. I figured he must be a crazed anarchist.
But no, he turned out to be Dr. Bryan Wolf, a radiologist who wears his white doctor’s jacket and carries a sign with a red cross and the words “humanitarian aid.” He pleads with federal forces not to shoot or gas protesters.
“Put your gun barrels down!” he cries out. “Why are you loading your grenade launchers? We’re just standing ——”
By Nicholas Kristof
July 29, 2020








Opinion | Help Me Find Trump’s ‘Anarchists’ in Portland (Published 2020)


The president has his politically driven narrative. And then there’s reality.




www.nytimes.com


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Warning, may upset people without a sense of humour, or understanding of facts.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

calm said:


> I’ve been on the front lines of the protests here, searching for the “radical-left anarchists” who President Trump says are on Portland streets each evening.


You must live next to james who hides under his desk from mythical white supremacists while terrorist Antifa took over several city blocks for weeks. And yet you somehow couldn't find them.

You already told us that you deliberately inciting illegal walkouts and fraudulently used union money to buy alcohol because you were incapable of performing your job. I guess it stands to reason that your incompetence extends beyond that and it's possible that you could stand right next to a rioting Antifa thug with a bomb and be completely unaware of what's happening.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Prairie Guy said:


> You must live next to james who hides under his desk from mythical white supremacists while terrorist Antifa took over several city blocks for weeks. And yet you somehow couldn't find them.


The writer at the NYT said that, not me.
I just posted the link with some highlights.
------
I got consent to buy that booze for the union members.
I had it stored for an upcoming union hall party, but I needed to haul it out earlier than I had planned.
It was all done legal.
Not to worry.
I was a very competent union man.
They used to keep a score board in the lunch room and about who won grievances and I won every grievance I submitted. We used to laugh and laugh about it.

I only accepted genuine grievances. I was not into defending the indefensible and spending union funds recklessly.

I did not get paid to lose. I refused to lose. I would orchestrate an illegal walkout if necessary just to win. I don't waste my time piddling around.

I was a good union type of grievance lawyer.
You would only wish you had a guy like me on your side or representing you.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

I was a good worker too.
I operated the largest Koepe mine hoist in North America.
Pipe Lake, Manitoba. (1970)
45 hundred feet per minute.
CN Tower is only 12 hundred.
Usual speed of man hoist travel in mine is 18 hundred.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

One-third of all black men in America are classified as ex-felons.








Study estimates U.S. population with felony convictions - UGA Today


New research led by a University of Georgia sociologist on the growth in the scope and scale of felony convictions finds that, as of 2010, 3 percent of




news.uga.edu





.... tens of millions of second-class citizens, most of whom are poor people of color, who have been stripped of basic civil and human rights and are subject to legalized discrimination for life.

This hell was constructed by corporate billionaires and their lackeys in the two major political parties who betrayed the working class and working poor to strip communities of jobs and social services, rewrite laws and tax codes to amass staggering fortunes and consolidate their political and economic power at the expense of the citizenry.

While they were fleecing the country, these billionaires, along with the politicians they bought and owned, including Joe Biden, methodically built brutal mechanisms of social control, expanding the prison population from 200,000 in 1970 to 2.3 million today and transforming police into lethal paramilitary forces of internal occupation. 

But the social hell of urban America is the great destroyer of dreams. It batters and assaults the children of the poor. It teaches them that their dreams, and finally they themselves, are worthless. They go to bed hungry. They live with fear. They lose their fathers, brothers and sisters to mass incarceration and at times their mothers.

They are repeatedly evicted from their dwellings; the sociologist Matthew Desmond estimates that 2.3 million evictions were filed in 2016 — a rate of four every minute. One-in-four families spend 70 percent of their income on rent.

This social hell is relentless. It wears them down. It makes them angry and bitter. It drives them to hopelessness and despair. The message sent to them by the dysfunctional schools, the decrepit housing projects, the mercenary financial institutions, gang violence, instability and ever-present police abuse is that they are human refuse.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> One-third of all black men in America are classified as ex-felons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Think about that, so many convicted criminals. These are actual crimes, not just parking tickets.

It's not discrimination to treat someone different because of their actions.


The problem is the massive amount of crime being committed.
The victims of that crime are likely in their same neighbourhoods.

Stop committing crimes and the problems will go away.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

The reason for all these criminal records is mostly because the cops (and the Ruling Class) set out to tar and feather every black person they saw with a criminal record.

Whites have always feared minorities because they appear to act in a tribal fashion. (Somewhat like Jewish Folks have been accused of.)

The description of "Tribal" means that they are organized as a group and when people are organized like (the Chamber of Commerce or AIPAC) they become a dominant force or a very influential lobby group. They may hire only among their own tribe as an example.
Everything was done to cause the destruction of any tribal organization by blacks and minorities in order to prevent them from enjoying any success as a group or tribe.

If we agree that some cops have been racist in the policing over the past 50 years, why should we not believe that many people with felony records are innocent and that the cops lied in court?

We, as a society don't like to admit it, but we have treated minorities very badly.

We blessed them with a criminal record and forced them into a leper colony of "Tainted" human beings.

We treated the minorities like Hitler treated the Jewish Folks.

G.O.P.'s Southern strategy
"You start out in 1954 by saying, “Ni-g-g-er, Ni-g-g-er, Ni-g-g-er.” By 1968 you can’t say “ni-g-g-er”—that hurts you, backfires.
So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Ni-g-g-er, ni-g-g-er.”"
--Lee Atwater, interviewed By Alexander Lamis, explaining the evolution of the G.O.P.'s Southern strategy, 1981--
Lee Atwater - Wikipedia

“The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”
--John Ehrlichman 1994--

Here we are 80 years after the Hitler-Trip and Jewish Folks are still entering courthouses across this universe and insisting on justice and the “Right-Of-Return” of stolen artifacts, property and jewels confiscated by Hitler and The Clowns.

Never once did I hear any Jewish Person suggest that the “Facts Had Changed On The Ground” or that it happened too long ago, and thus the Jews we’re not entitled to compensation for losses incurred under Hitler.

Jewish Folks demand that we recognize the pain that they endured with Hitler and The Clowns. They even had laws passed in Congress this past year where it is now a criminal act to speak rudely of Jewish Folks and that we must always remember the pain that Jewish Folks experienced.

Minorities deserve the same treatment.

Blacks need or are demanding the same identical treatment that our society gave the Jewish Folks.

Jewish owned JPMorgan Chase & Co owned and received thousands of slaves as collateral before the Civil War. The early American banking system was once dominated by Jewish Folks and who promoted slavery.

"Between 1831 and 1865 two of Jewish owned JPMorgan Chase & Co banks - Citizens Bank and Canal Bank in Louisiana - accepted approximately 13,000 enslaved individuals as collateral on loans and took ownership of approximately 1,250 of them when the plantation owners defaulted on the loans.

You would now think that they would be the first to line up (use their inordinate amount of political power) and demand reparations for the Black Folks today.


----------



## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

sags said:


> He goes golfing and rails on about Dr. Fauci being more popular than he is.


The herd is dumber then the dumbest person in it. You have to be dumb to be the leader of the herd. The sheep believe what ever comes out of Gates henchman Fauci 's butt


----------



## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

sags said:


> Trump lives in fear of the day after he leaves the protection of the Presidency, and he likely has good reason to.


 Fear does not have Trump smothering his breathing in Gates underwear


----------



## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

The goal is to kill the economy to lower CO2. Why do you think there are skids of bricks put out to destroy property ? The powers that be do not want the police to stop the destruction of the economy. Trump is our strongest defensive player against Gates & his henchman


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> The reason for all these criminal records is mostly because the cops (and the Ruling Class) set out to tar and feather every black person they saw with a criminal record.


No, it's because they commit more crimes.
The data is clear, heck look at the murder rate, that's a darn hard one to fake.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

So you are saying that black people commit more crimes because of their skin color ? That is about as racist as it gets.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> So you are saying that black people commit more crimes because of their skin color ? That is about as racist as it gets.


I did not say that.

It's pretty clear though, if you commit a crime, you are more likely to have a criminal record.

If you notice a lot of criminal records in a group, odds are that group commits more crimes.

I have never made the claim that this is a racial issue.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

I think that at least a minimum 40% of petty criminal records were instigated by racism within society as a whole.

I quite understand people wanting to ignore such horrible facts.

But I don't think that people can truthfully deny the facts.

It was the "Agenda" of the ruling class.

The comments made by the G.O.P.'s Southern strategy.
Lee Atwater spelled it out as I mentioned on page 11.

Political parties (Lawmakers) deliberately set out to tar and feather black folks.

It can not be denied.

And John Ehrlichman who was a Nixon top guy made the same type of statements.

Why can't we believe the words of these 2 Ruling Class members?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> I think that at least a minimum 40% of petty criminal records were instigated by racism within society as a whole.
> 
> I quite understand people wanting to ignore such horrible facts.
> 
> ...


You're going to blame Nixon?
A guy who's been dead for decades, and was out of office before most of the country was Born?


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> You're going to blame Nixon?


Yes ..... This Agenda took place generation after generation.
The racist policy was a matter of law over decades and decades.
The laws still remain on the books today.

The culture within law enforcement is quite dominant and it was set out by the top law and order people within governments at every level.

The Nixon and Republican party strategy was to tar and feather the black man.

This racism did not happen overnight. It took effort and planning and using the law to make it so.

I think you are only pretending not to see this as fact.

It would be like you telling me that the Jewish Folks (who only represent a mere 2% of the population) hold such a dominant position in the financial system and politics because of good luck or happenstance.

Blacks and minorities (who represent 45% of the population) are not the poorest among us because of bad luck or happenstance.

It is by design.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> Yes ..... This Agenda took place generation after generation.
> The racist policy was a matter of law over decades and decades.
> *The laws still remain on the books today.*


Please support this claim.



> It would be like you telling me that the Jewish Folks (who only represent a mere 2% of the population) hold such a dominant position in the financial system and politics because of good luck or happenstance?


No, it's hard work and good choices.
It isn't like it's their skin colour, which varies BTW.



> Blacks and minorities are not the poorest among us because of bad luck and happenstance.


Or skin colour.
There are many groups of dark skinned people who are doing just fine, if not better than average.




> It is by design.


I agree that the racist left is systematically trying to exploit racial division.
Racism is a sad fringe ideology that the leftists are trying to revive for political gain.


But mainstream society rejected racism years ago, it's just silly old people like you who even care about this crap.
The simple reality is most people think racism is a waste of energy, if not outright counterproductive.

I've hired people of all different races, religions and genders.
As a practical matter, I always hired the best possible person, because I wanted to get the job done.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Please support this claim.


Do some research.
I gave you facts and I then expressed my opinion of why I think these facts or situations happened.


----------



## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

The political correct thing to do is view everyone the same & pretend their is no difference between sex & race. In the 2020 Olympics there were suppose to be 35 swimming events. When I googled the number of blacks that won gold medals in swimming over the years I could only find 2 blacks that won gold.

Though when it comes to the 100 meter dash I cant remember the last time a white person won.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

When I lived in the North West Territories, I noticed that Indigenous People had great ability in mechanics.
They repaired and operated lots of major heavy equipment while building the highway system.

The system of government was very racist.
The rules were that all bars and booze outlets had to close between 4 and 7 because the "Natives" needed to be pursuaded to go home and eat. Just before closing the bars, they would sell cases of beer and the "Natives" sat on the hotel steps and drank between 4 and 7.

Mines used to hire natives just to say they met the quota to qualify for government hand outs. Many Natives just wandered aimlessly around the mine site and without actual jobs.

I had trouble keeping the tissue paper supplied in the public washrooms because on cold winter days it was packed tightly and lighted up to warm the hands as the Natives walked across the frozen lake on the way to the reservation after the bars closed.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> Do some research.
> I gave you facts and I then expressed my opinion of why I think these facts or situations happened.


I've done research, your making claims that are not supported by the facts.
The situation literally does not exist.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> When I lived in the North West Territories, I noticed that Indigenous People had great ability in mechanics.
> They repaired and operated lots of major heavy equipment while building the highway system.
> 
> The system of government was very racist.
> ...


Please explain how the government was racist?
Were the laws only applicable to a particular racial group?

There is nothing wrong with a government restricting the sale of alcohol.
Most of the world has restrictions on alcohol sales.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

I am not into arguing my VIEWS and thoughts.
Thank you for asking me though.
Here is the deal ...... Read my views ..... and if you disagree, I can handle that.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> I am not into arguing my VIEWS and thoughts.
> Thank you for asking me though.
> Here is the deal ...... Read my views ..... and if you disagree, I can handle that.


You spout lies and nonsense.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> You spout lies and nonsense.


There is no doubt that you that hold opinions and views which you have been persuaded of after a lifetime of experiences.

It is the same with me. I do not carry some kind of reference book around with me just in case somebody asks for proof towards an opinion or view that I hold.

How can I prove an OPINION? An opinion which I arrived at while experiencing life itself?

If you write an opinion here and I do not agree with your opinion, I don't ask you for proof because I know it is only an opinion of yours.

Give me the same courtesy.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

I am listening to the Congressional hearings with Dr. Fauci and The Boys.

It sounds to me there is a law in many cities about "Distancing" ...... some mention that city could arrest people on the street just for not "Distancing".
-----
I think it is a bit awkward to "Distance" when marching in a parade-like fashion down the street.

Maybe the city cops arrest people for not keeping their distance while participating in a protest?

In a large city where maybe 10 thousand people are protesting, and if they had to keep their "distance", the cops would need to shut down all through traffic for miles.
It would be the cops shutting the city down because half the downtown core is besieged by "Distanced" protesters.

Worse Case Scenario .....
It seems to me that every person (whether protesting or not) who were not "Distancing" on the street are subject to arrest.

Police like protests happening on Main Street in any city.
They are simple to control.

The main street in any city is almost wall to wall buildings on both sides of the street.
The street is actually a concrete tunnel of sorts.
And the moment you step off the sidewalk you are on "Private Property".
Once a protester enters into the "Tunnel" ..... very hard to get out.
Police can "Kettle" any area of the tunnel at any time.
-------
I don't understand why the cops are unable to grab any protester who is damaging property.

Are the cops too afraid?

Let the cops "Pretend" that it is a "Drug Raid". When an undercover officer messages the SWAT team who are housed inside the Federal building, and details the exact location of the "Vilolence" then send a "Uniformed Team" in. Make sure the SWAT team is wearing cameras which will show the raid was necessary and proper.

If you can send a team with such precision to get Osama bin Laden and The Clowns, then surely to God the cops set up a raid just out side the front door.

Why don't the cops use undercover people wearing a camera so that they can publicize the footage of the violence. The undercover cop could then stick some small tracker onto a protester clothing.
Maybe the protester has a cell phone and the undercover cop can research cell phone towers for location and identify phones nearby?
The cops even have "Fake Cell" towers that soak all the information up.
You would not believe the technogy that is available to the cops.
If you own a cell phone they know more about you than your own mother does ..... and in five minutes flat.

There are tons of options for the cops ......

But they are all pretending to be afraid and claim that none of their training would ever prepare them for this protesting event.

The cops need the violence to justify the control measures.

The best trained para-military force in the world and yet they are acting "Afraid".

Why is the media able to find and film the violence and not the cops?
Maybe the SWAT team should just look around for Television lights and check that area out?

Nobody would complain about SWAT events, if the cameras proved the neccessity of a 10 man team or less ...... and arresting 3 or four guys damaging property.

All they are doing is performing a firecracker show every night and amusing the TV-Land viewers.

Edit: Maybe Interested:
I added a text document of stuff that I have read/collected about Cell Phone Tracking. I am definitely not a Geek. I am into surveillance tactics only.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

A contact in Portland tells me that the city is about to start fining the federal police for each 15 minutes that their fence illegaly blocks public paths.

There is also now talk that the federal police are going to withdraw from Portland.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

How Portland's Racist History Informs Today's Protests
The average household income in Portland is $90,382 with a poverty rate of 14.90%. The median rental costs in recent years comes to $1,187 per month, and the median house value is $383,600. The median age in Portland is 36.9 years, 36.9 years for males, and 37 years for females. For every 100 females there are 97.9 males.
-----
Portland - Population is 600 thousand
According to the most recent ACS, the racial composition of Portland was:
White: 77.10%
Asian: 8.06%
Black or African American: 5.76%
Two or more races: 5.51%
Other race: 2.13%
Native American: 0.75%
Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander: 0.69%




__





Portland, Oregon Population 2022 (Demographics, Maps, Graphs)






worldpopulationreview.com




----
NPR - All Things Considered
Host Ari Shapiro interviews Lisa Bates
July 30, 2020
(Flash Audio)








How Portland's Racist History Informs Today's Protests


Oregon was founded on white supremacist principles. But it also has a long history of anti-racist protests, says Lisa Bates, who teaches urban studies at Portland State University.




www.npr.org


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> A contact in Portland tells me that the city is about to start fining the federal police for each 15 minutes that their fence illegaly blocks public paths.
> 
> There is also now talk that the federal police are going to withdraw from Portland.


That's been claimed earlier.

I'd be very curious what grounds they have to interfere with law enforcement activities.


The reality is if there weren't rioters attacking the courthouse, there'd be no reason for them.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Two months since the riots, and still no “National Conversation”
Of the dozens and dozens of randomly-selected black Americans that I have so far spoken to across the United States, only two expressed what one might call a “positive” view of the riots, and they were both young men. Everyone else I have encountered is unabashedly scornful of rioting, and many even express apprehensions about the basic logic of a movement referred to as “Black Lives Matter,” which incongruously appears to them to have caused increased suffering in their predominantly black neighborhoods.
By Michael Tracey
July 26, 2020








Two months since the riots, and still no “National Conversation”


We are now approaching two-month mark since the riots that erupted across the United States in late May and early June. There is a…




medium.com





‘Racism is structural, and state neglect can be as deadly as state abuse. It does not always take a knee on the neck to kill someone. Poverty, overcrowding, and unequal access to healthcare can be fatal.’








The Guardian view on Black Lives Matter worldwide: a common cause | Editorial


Editorial: An American death has sparked global protest and confronted other countries with uncomfortable truths




www.theguardian.com





"We insisted on reserving the right to bomb *******."
==David Lloyd George (British prime minister, 1916-1922)==








Britain's Empire: Resistance, Repression and Revolt by Richard Gott – review


Richard Drayton endorses a portrayal of violence at the heart of British colonialism




www.theguardian.com





Sand and Desert Ni-g-g-ers:

The UN Sanctions Regime In Iraq’, Hans von Sponeck, former UN Humanitarian Coordinator for Iraq, wrote that during ‘phase V’ of the Oil-For-Food programme, 

.... From November 1998 to May 1999, each Iraqi citizen received a food allocation worth $49, or 27 cents per day. 

.... ‘the UN was more humane with its dogs than with the Iraqi people’: each UN dog was allocated $160 for food over the same period.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Comment from an Asian on a forum tonite:


hong kong people re saying "you can't kill us all" and seeing what is happening to Uyghurs, they are starting to doubt that. 
Portland people are just people who didn't **** in years with low IQ trying every stupid ways to busy themselves


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Eder said:


> Comment from an Asian on a forum tonite:
> 
> 
> hong kong people re saying "you can't kill us all" and seeing what is happening to Uyghurs, they are starting to doubt that.
> ...


I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.
Though I don't see any of these protestors in Portland moving to China or North Korea anytime soon.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

MrMatt said:


> I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.
> Though I don't see any of these protestors in Portland moving to China or North Korea anytime soon.


Yeah, if any of that lot had to experience being a citizen in North Korea or China they'd get to see what real problems were.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, if any of that lot had to experience being a citizen in North Korea or China they'd get to see what real problems were.
> 
> ltr


Well, it's a double edged sword.
I'm glad that we live such privileged and prosperous lives that most literally can not conceive or comprehend how much worse it could be.
It's very unfortunate that they're spending all this energy to destroy our society, but again, their ignorance is due to our wonderful success.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

You see injustice. You want to do something to bring light on the subject in a busy world, so you organize a peaceful protest.

The media starts to report it, and then the crazies move in and turn the protest into a violent one or take it totally off the rails.

Some of the crazies are paid to do it, while others are just crazy. There is a long history of companies and powerful people paying people to infiltrate otherwise good organizations. Crazy people will aways find a "cause" as an excuse to unleash their destructive side.

The most effective way to disrupt an organization or progress is to join it and destroy it from the inside by your actions.

I think we are seeing some of that in recent protests.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> You see injustice. You want to do something to bring light on the subject in a busy world, so you organize a peaceful protest.
> 
> The media starts to report it, and then the crazies move in and turn the protest into a violent one or take it totally off the rails.
> 
> ...


I agree, and that's why most people are okay with the protests, but not okay with the violence.
There was a protest where they kicked out troublemakers, unfortunately one of them came back and shot people.

It's a hard balance.

That being said, some of these groups are also pushing bad and harmful ideas.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

American Exceptionalism

What is happening in Portland is also an example of American exceptionalism. When the US does something wrong, it needs to be pointed out, yet we ignore when our allies do it and when we do it abroad. Israel regularly targets medics during demonstrations.

For months when Palestinian protesters were there at the border wall in Gaza demanding to be able to go home the IDF or Occupation army with their snipers took aim and successfully shot medics, identified journalists, people running back, and of course anyone with a rock that couldn’t even reach them. US media looked and looks the other way.
By Myles Hoenig
July 31, 2020
(PDF Document)


https://www.icc-cpi.int/CourtRecords/CR2020_01746.PDF


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.
> Though I don't see any of these protestors in Portland moving to China or North Korea anytime soon.


Why would they move to China? These are proud Americans who believe in freedom and their constitutional rights. The protesters in Portland are some of the only people who are actually stepping up for their core American values -- independence and freedom from government oppression.

We have American and Canadian military people who've fought around the world, supposedly in defence of these kinds of freedoms.

Portland/Oregon residents are actually standing up for those rights on home soil and they should be applauded for it. I am still waiting to hear Eder and MrMatt express their gratitude to them. Without citizens standing up for these rights, we all are in danger of governments that get out of hand. This is how the people keep power-hungry despots in check.

But Oregonians aren't waiting around for some Canadian nobodys on message boards to praise them. They know their rights and they know what it means to be American, even if Trumpers and Republicans don't.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

deleted


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Why would they move to China? These are proud Americans who believe in freedom and their constitutional rights. The protesters in Portland are some of the only people who are actually stepping up for their core American values -- independence and freedom from government oppression.
> 
> We have American and Canadian military people who've fought around the world, supposedly in defence of these kinds of freedoms.
> 
> ...


I've already said, in this thread.

I'm okay with the protesters, good for them.
I'm against the violent rioters, bad for them.

In fact I've been rather consistent that there are two different acts here, and they elicit 2 different responses.

If you're attacking the courthouse, you're not a peaceful protester.

As far as gratitude, that's an interesting one. I'm not grateful for people pushing bad ideas.
I'm willing to accept protesters and people pushing bad ideas, that's part of the deal with free speech.

I don't have to be grateful for people pushing nonsense. They're literally flying the Soviet flag, they are grossly misinformed on the impact of the agenda they're promoting.

The reality is that while there are bad cops out there, look at the Vegas shooting/execution. They're the minority, we need to do more to weed them out. 

I want more police, more funding, more training and more supervision.
More support units and more liaisons with special services and alternate intervention strategies.

In the Floyd case they've already charged the responsible officer, overcharged IMO, which will cause a huge mess when the verdict is released. I think the real problem is that the Chauvin had a history of problems that should have been dealt with earlier. It was really more of a case of improper supervision that allowed him to remain on the force.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

I think that it is "Violent" and cruel when the Economic Terrorists allow a "Culture" of extreme inequality to permeate and infect communities and livlihoods.

The system has "Poisoned" citizens in a very "Violent" fashion.

50 million or more needing food stamps shows the Gold Medal of violence being applied by the Economic Terrorists.

And the Ruling Class created this "Violence", beginning with Ronnie Ray-Gun.
And the "Trickle Down Clowns".

The Economic Terrorists (and their para-military forces) have violently created this continent of bitterness and would now beat-in the heads of citzens because it all happened "Unconsciously" and unintentionally.

Economic Terrorists are claiming that Inequality happens and persists because of an "Unconscious Bias". (Kinda' like how racism happened.)

Nobody saw or recognized how violently and relentlessly citizens have been "Beat Down with Trickle Down".

Don't ask the protesters to cool their jets.

Demand that the Economic Terrorists now fostering this "Anger" quit being so violent themselves.

Edit:
"People are mostly done thinking about what divides us, and are gearing up to fight instead. "


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Lawsuit alleges Black Lives Matter protesters are being priced out of civil rights; cost of protective clothing too high

A group of protesters has sued the Seattle government, arguing that “unmitigated police violence” has imposed a monetary cost on their right to demonstrate freely, forcing them to buy expensive gear to safely confront the cops.

Filed by five plaintiffs who took part in ongoing protests in Seattle, the suit seeks a temporary restraining order barring the city’s police department from wielding force and crowd control munitions on demonstrators, alleging heavy-handed police tactics have made “safe protest prohibitive,” as “one needs an exceptional amount of protective gear to enjoy that freedom.”

“Because the Seattle Police Department has acted above and outside the law in dispensing its unbridled force, and the city has failed to prevent [the] same, the… effect is to establish a de facto protest tax,” ....
----
"Individual protesters subjected to SPD’s unabated and indiscriminate violence now must purchase cost-prohibitive gear to withstand munitions – even when peacefully protesting – as a condition to exercising their right to free speech and peaceable assembly."
August 03, 2020








Protesters sue Seattle, claim they need ‘expensive’ protective gear to safely protest


SEATTLE — A lawsuit filed Monday against the city of Seattle argues protesters' constitutional rights have been violated by the police department's "indiscriminate" use of chemical and less-lethal crowd control tactics, which have forced demonstrators to buy "expensive" protective gear in order...




www.kiro7.com


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

The "Anger" on the street is huge.

No more respect and no more trust towards authority figures .....

The host actually encourages those who support the health officials to Take It To The Streets.

Get out on the street and support or confront the opposition.

Public Health & The Pandemic
Public health officials are leaving their jobs amid death threats, political fights
New York City’s health commissioner resigned on Tuesday, the latest in a wave of public health officials around the country who have resigned, retired, or been fired amid unprecedented pressure since the pandemic began. Senior national correspondent Kate Snow talked to four officials about the troubling trend.
NBC - Today
Correspondent: Kate Snow
August 05, 2020
(Flash Video)








Public health officials are leaving their jobs amid death threats, political fights


New York City’s health commissioner resigned on Tuesday, the latest in a wave of public health officials around the country who have resigned, retired, or been fired amid unprecedented pressure since the pandemic began. Senior national correspondent Kate Snow talked to four officials about the...




www.today.com


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

This lawsuit against the NRA is an attempt to "Bankrupt" the NRA.
New York has a lot more money than the NRA has.
And this lawsuit created (will continue to create) enough legal work for clerks and lawyers ..... a bail-out for the industry.

Government has a "Lifetime" and is going to bury the NRA in paperwork and destroy the "Myth".

They are not going to take guns off the street, they are just going to quit selling ammunition suited for these guns. Ammunition will have ID chips as part of the chemical gunpowder compound.

New York is also promoting and staffing patrols on the borders.
S\topping traffic and demanding to know .....
Where you are from? ..... Where are you going? And wear this tracking device.

Trump can easily take control of these "Check Points".
The Patriot Act allows Federal Troops to operate any of these highway inspections.

If you are a protester ....... if you carried a cell phone to any protest, you will be hassled.

It may be a possibility that if the virus "Appears" to be out of control is intentional, there may come a time where Trump hires the National Guard to carry out the Test/Trace program and also the new vaccination program.

The American military can not continue living in cramped barracks. If a sports player living in a "Bubble" can't avoid an infection, we know that America needs to have most soldiers return from foreign shores and to families and communities within the country.

The virus being out of control may have the public pleading Trump to "Hire" some military resources and get control.

It makes no sense that a country with the brains to organize a moon landing, and dream about Mars ...... But is unable to "Organize" a national effort to get control of this contagion.

The more I see this "Out Of Control" scenario has me believe this could be quite intentional.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

O’Keefe vs FBI: Denied Constitutional Right to Bear Arms

Project Veritas Founder James O'Keefe III (born June 28, 1984) is an American conservative political activist and provocateur.
August 06, 2020
(YouTube Video)


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Looks like Portland had record shootings and murders in July.
I guess it's also Trumps fault that violent crime is at multi-decade highs.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Because of this virus the CIA has lost the supply chain out of Afghanistan supplying heroin to American cities.
Millions of heroin addicts are in desperate need of a fix.
Violence will happen in all major population centers.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Minneapolis Announces Plan To Replace Police Officers With Thousands Of Heavily Armed Social Workers

....The mayor outlined a plan that dramatically restructured the municipality’s approach to public safety, replacing its nearly 850 police officers with a similar number of social workers, who would be dispatched to city streets and have at their disposal firearms, bulletproof vests, tear gas, armored vehicles with gun turrets, and other tools to enhance their service to the community.

....“We have heard your call,” Frey added, “and rest-assured: The next time you contact the authorities, a licensed professional equipped with empathy, emotional intelligence, active listening skills, and a whole lot of firepower will be headed your way.”
August 06, 2020








Minneapolis Announces Plan To Replace Police Officers With Thousands Of Heavily Armed Social Workers


MINNEAPOLIS—In an effort to regain the community’s trust and better allocate city resources, Mayor Jacob Frey announced Thursday that Minneapolis would dismantle its current police force and replace it with a new bureau of heavily armed social workers, effective immediately.




www.theonion.com


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Ketamine that’s injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

Police stopped Elijah McClain on the street in suburban Denver last year after deeming the young Black man suspicious. He was thrown into a chokehold, threatened with a dog and stun gun, then subjected to another law enforcement tool before he died: a drug called ketamine.

Paramedics inject it into people like McClain as a sedative, often at the behest of police who believe suspects are out of control.

On Monday, it will have been a year since McClain, 23, was stopped by officers responding to a 911 call about a suspicious person wearing a ski mask and waving his arms. Police put him in a chokehold twice and multiple officers pressed their body weight into him.

Paramedics were called and injected McClain with ketamine, but they incorrectly estimated his weight, giving him more than 1.5 times the dose he should have received. He got 500 milligrams because they thought he weighed 220 pounds, but he was only 140 pounds and should have received 315 milligrams.

By Patty Nieberg
August 22, 2020








Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny


DENVER (AP) — Police stopped Elijah McClain on the street in suburban Denver last year after deeming the young Black man suspicious...




apnews.com












Death of Elijah McClain - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## robfordlives (Sep 18, 2014)

Trump has extended an olive branch to Ted Wheeler in Portland for Fed assistance again. Thank god as people are fed up! Restore law and order!!!


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

And to think it is only 600 kms from Portland to the Canadian border and peace in the valley.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

robfordlives said:


> Trump has extended an olive branch to Ted Wheeler in Portland for Fed assistance again. Thank god as people are fed up! Restore law and order!!!


They don't want law and order, or economic growth.

They want pain and despair and suffering, so they can blame Trump and hopefully get power.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Trump has been president for almost 4 years.

This civil unrest is happening on Trump's watch.

What is Trump doing about it but complaining?

Trump claims to be "Powerless" and must be invited in by the State. And Trump is going to be just as powerless after the election.

This rant by Trump about law and order is a joke because Trump is begging to be invited to a protest.

These issues have been the fuel of protests since Occupy Wall Street. (September 2011)

Every dime the Economic Terrorists grabbed with the recent bail-out should be seized immediately,

The Financial Parasites should get on their knees and beg for help like they are demanding the Lower Class do.

Who gave the Wall Street Terrorists the money to open up shop after the collapse of 2007-2008?

When Wall Street took the bail-out, they made certain promises to the Lower Class. Wall Street promised a more equitable distribution of wealth and power.

And today these same Clowns of Wall Street are paying cops to beat people senseless.

Capitalism is Godless and without conscience.

I am thinking that the only thing saving the Upper Class at this moment in time is "Religion". 

At the moment, Poor People have reached for a crutch named "Religion". Those living "God's Plan". Most Poor People are praying for relief rather than fighting for relief.

The Upper Class must negotiate with the protesters or finance higher police budgets and larger bullets.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Why did the white nationalists Proud Boys go to Portland, where they weren't invited and don't belong ?

It is pretty clear that the strategy for the alt right is to travel around and cause disruption at protests so the right wing media can blame the protestors.

I would guess by the most recent poll numbers where Biden is beating Trump like a dusty old carpet.......they aren't fooling many Americans these days.

The Fox News Trumpsters are pulling their hair out. They see what is coming.......a Democratic sweep of the White House, Senate and House.

I watched some Fox last night, and they weren't even showing the convention speeches of the lesser knowns.

They were raving on about Obama and Hillary Clinton for goodness sakes.

Rough times ahead for the Republicans, but they did it to themselves.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

The very purpose of a protest is to cause disruption in order to gain media attention. Disruption has your voice magnified by the media. Otherwise, you are just a cockroach.

The more groups which show up to protest the protest is disruption at its best.

It is when there is a protest and no media turns up that would worry most.

It seems like that if you have a protest and no media shows up, the protesters run out and buy some lighter fluid.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> They don't want law and order, or economic growth.
> 
> They want pain and despair and suffering, so they can blame Trump and hopefully get power.


Ridiculous and clueless assessment, basically another far right conspiracy theory.

I lived in Portland for over 5 years


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Ridiculous and clueless assessment, basically another far right conspiracy theory.
> 
> I lived in Portland for over 5 years


What are they even rioting about?
They want crime?

I listened to an NPR show, and they were simultaneously/alternately complaining about a lack of investment in neighbourhoods, and gentrification. These activists literally don't have a plan forward.

Sorry, but when I look at the riots and crazy crap going on, I don't get their gameplan.
It really doesn't make sense.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Look at the craziness of the Blake shooting.

Guy with warrants for violent crimes, including weapons, assaulting officers and domestic violence.
Police try to detain him, he resists, they Taser him, he still gets up and goes to his vehicle.
We don't know if he was reaching for something, but even then, you can't let people with warrants for violent crimes, and domestic violence simply drive away with a car full of kids.

Of course this is somehow, "bad policing".
Exactly what would you have done?

Hope he didn't fight off police to go to his car and get a gun? Maybe everything will work out fine?
Taser him again?
Pepper spray and likely get the kids?
Let him drive away with the kids?

How are you supposed to deal with violent suspects who have previously assaulted police and their family?

Response? Burn the city down and call for holding the Police "accountable".
You know what is going to happen? Police are going to stop going to these communities, leaving people like Blake free to abuse and assault their families and communities.

Letting criminals run rampant through Communities of Color is systematic racism, and EXACTLY the policies that the left is pushing for.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

There must to be a way to perform "Social Control" without using deadly force.

It seems that everybody is in a hurry and need to get the incident controlled so they can move on to the next incident. 

What was the urgency where deadly force needed to be even considered?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The witness said the police had Blake in a headlock on the ground and were punching him in the ribs.

He staggered to his feet and tried to move away and the female officer tasered him.

He limped around to the other side of the truck and one cop shot him 7 times in the back at close range as he opened the door.

The bullets caused horrific damage.....severed spine, damage to organs.

How about... don't punch someone in the ribs when they are on the ground ? Let them lie there, handcuff them and then stand them up ?

How about if absolutely necessary, you shoot him in the leg or butt ?

The police officer escalated it right to lethal force. The question isn't Blake's background or problems. It is the use of lethal force by the police officer.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The witness said the police had Blake in a headlock on the ground and were punching his ribs. He staggered up and tried to get away and the female officer tazed him.
> 
> He went around to the other side of the truck and one cop shot him 7 times in the back at close range. The bullets caused horrific damage.....severed spine, damage to organs.
> 
> ...


Well if you saw the other video, you can see they had him on the ground and he was resisting.

Yeah, they were trying to position his arms for handcuffs.
He was resisting, so they put him in a headlock and tried to move his arms
He still resisted, so they hit him in the ribs to try and get the cuffs on.
He still resisted, so they tasered him.
He then moved to his car, not clear why. 
If he was going for a weapon, unfortunately shooting was the only option.
The kids were right there, the police were right there.


This "shooting in the leg" thing is the thing of movies. If you use lethal force, you should ONLY do so when there is an imminent threat to life. Shooting someone in the leg isn't necessarily going to stop them immediately.
If you have time to do anything other than shooting, you should do that first.

Shooting should be an absolute last resort after ALL other options are done.
If they had time to shoot him "in the leg", they should have tried to Taser again.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

If we took away the guns...... what would or what options did the cops have after tasering the guy and he began running to his vehicle?

If we had an unarmed social worker (as BLM have requested) responding to this call, how would the incident been handled differently?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Also, they're investigating, like they do all officer involved shootings.

Why do politicians need to pile on that the police should be "held accountable", that is obvious, is there anyone advocating that they shouldn't be accountable?

But back to my point, what is the purpose of the protests?

Something bad happened, they're investigating to find out what happened.
Isn't that how justice should work? What do the protestor/rioters want?
It seems they don't want the investigation, or accountability. They just want to burn down their city.

If the police didn't respond, the other people there would have remained at risk and may have been hurt. Is that what we want? Violent guys like Blake walking around with impunity?
Don't you care about all the people who are a victim of his crimes?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The escalation to lethal force is the problem. The cops aren't trained to shoot people to stop them. They are trained to shoot people to kill them.

If the cop couldn't shoot the guy in the *** from 2 feet away (the cop had hold of the guys shirt), he shouldn't have a gun.

The cop panicked and started firing off rounds. The kids were in the car and the bullets could have caromed around and hit them.

One of the bullets hit the guy's arm and shattered the bone. This cop was just blasting away. An example of why gun's are dangerous in the wrong hands.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> The escalation to lethal force is the problem. The cops aren't trained to shoot people to stop them. They are trained to shoot people to kill them.
> 
> *If the cop couldn't shoot the guy in the *** from 2 feet away (the cop had hold of the guys shirt).
> 
> ...


 ...


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

It seems to me that from beginning to end, everybody was in a rush to contain or control the incident. Routinely using violence to throw the guy to the ground and tasering him.

It is as though the cops feel the need to hurry through the incident because there were other calls waiting for service.

What was the urgency? Why the rush to gain total surrender of the suspect?

The very first thing that cops do is shout orders of surrender.

The cops don't want to talk. Don't want to negotiate. The cops want compliance and control as a drill sergeant may demand and at any cost.

The streets are not a military barracks. The streets are a community.

What would of happened if a social worker had of been the first responder and had began negotiating and sought deescalation?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Actually they are trained to shoot to stop, and that's what they did.
If you didn't notice, once the threat was neutralized, they stopped shooting, and called for medical aid.
They didn't kill him.
They proceeded through proper escalation on use of force, from verbal, to physical, to taser to gun.

Again, what should they have done?
Let him get a gun from the car?

Really when someone has a warrant for a violent felony, and you have him in your hands, should you arrest them, or just let them drive away with a car full of kids?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Question during police training........

Trainer ...........You have a suspect with a criminal history and he is resisting arrest. He attempts to get in a vehicle where there are 3 kids. How do you respond ?

Cop trainee.........I shoot him in the back 7 times.

Trainer.........Huh ?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Question during police training........
> 
> Trainer ...........You have a suspect with a criminal history and he is resisting arrest. He attempts to get in a vehicle where there are 3 kids. How do you respond ?
> 
> ...


You have a suspect with outstanding warrants for violent offenses, and previous weapons charges and he is resisting arrest.
After trying to use force and a taser, he continues to resist, and grabs a gun inside a vehicle with children, while refusing to comply.

I shoot him until he can be disarmed and call for medical treatment, then comply with the investigation.

Sounds good to me.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

What was the hurry?

The shooting of Blake on Sunday happened quickly, with less than three minutes elapsing between the time the first officer arrived and shots being fired....

The police radio dispatch and timeline does not mention that anybody knew who Jacob Blake was or that he had a criminal record.

Blake had a warrant issued for his arrest stemming from a domestic case in May.

-- A neighbor sees Jacob Blake barbecuing outside his apartment at 2805 40th St. 

-- Officers are sent to Blake’s address for a complaint of “family trouble.” A dispatcher notifies officers that a woman called police and said Blake “isn’t supposed to be there and he took the complainant's keys and is refusing to give them back.”









Jacob Blake was shot less than 3 minutes after Wisconsin police arrived at the scene, according to dispatch audio


The shooting of Jacob Blake on Sunday by Kenosha, Wisconsin, police happened quickly, according to dispatch audio.



www.usatoday.com


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> What are they even rioting about?
> They want crime?


They are voicing their discontent with excessive force from police (which has been a problem for a long time in Portland), as well as voicing their displeasure with the Trump white house.

The message is, in fact, a combination of different complaints. It's not crystal clear. That's what you get in a free society where people can protest and voice their criticisms of police & government structures ... in a free, democratic society, you have to put up with that.

I thought you were a right winger who loves Free Speech. Isn't that what you types are always going on about? How great free speech is?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

I'm not really a "right winger", I just believe in human rights and fairness and liberal values

If anything I'm pretty much a textbook liberal.
*"Liberalism* is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law.[1][2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support free markets, free trade, limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion."

Everyone already agrees that excessive force is bad and needs to be addressed.
What's the point of rioting?

I understand that they hate Trump, but sometimes in a democracy this happens. 
What is going to happen if/when Trump wins a second term?

I'm okay with free speech, it's the violence and rioting that I disapprove of. It isn't "speech" when you start looting, burning down buildings and killing people.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> I'm okay with free speech, it's the violence and rioting that I disapprove of. It isn't "speech" when you start looting, burning down buildings and killing people.


They have been peacefully protesting since the time of Occupy Wall Street in 2011.
Protesters should protest peacefully for another 10 years?

It seems to me that the Upper Class like things just the way they are and are refusing to negotiate.

Refusing to negotiate brings forth a violent response and the Upper Class pretend that they need protect the community ..... when in fact it is the Upper Class who are using violence against the protesters to protect the Upper Class and not the community itself.

No doubt, the Upper Class who direct the Non-Negotiate stance do not even live in the community.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> I'm okay with free speech, it's the violence and rioting that I disapprove of. It isn't "speech" when you start looting, burning down buildings and killing people.


There isn't too much in the way of 'violence and rioting'. The right wing media plays that up to make people like you freak out.

You are being manipulated and brainwashed by the right wing media machine, @MrMatt. Trump in particular is trying to play up the drama, specifically to scare conservative snowflakes into cowering in their suburbs. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. Don't fall for it! You're smarter than that.

Don't be a snowflake. Protests, with a bit of chaos, is healthy American behaviour. Remember, people like you (in the military) have gone around the world and died to bring the joy of protests and liberty to other countries.

You have to accept a bit of a mess when you have *liberty* and democracy. That comes along with liberty.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> There isn't too much in the way of 'violence and rioting'. The right wing media plays that up to make people like you freak out.
> 
> You have to accept a bit of a mess when you have *liberty* and democracy. That comes along with liberty.


There is "too much" in the way of violence and rioting.
We're at what 30 killed and over 700 million in property damage with what were initially the George Floyd riots.
Also when your political movement kills dozens, it's not "a mess", it's something much worse.


But what do you think, how many deaths are "too many"


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

calm said:


> They have been peacefully protesting since the time of Occupy Wall Street in 2011.
> Protesters should protest peacefully for another 10 years?
> 
> It seems to me that the Upper Class like things just the way they are and are refusing to negotiate.
> ...


They are trying to suppress anti-government voices. Plain and simple.

Authoritarian regimes around the world do this all the time. Americans usually criticize it and say those other countries need liberty and freedom. Often they even fly in troops, like @MrMatt , to bring that liberty and freedom to the backward societies which lack it.

Americans are exercising their liberty and freedom. This isn't that hard to understand, unless of course you've been brainwashed by the billionaire elites running Fox News.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Also when your political movement kills dozens, it's not "a mess", it's something much worse.
> But what do you think, how many deaths are "too many"


You're right, the American far right has killed far too many people. That includes the police, most of which are right-leaning. There's heavy membership of police and *military* within those far right boys clubs. The far right in the US has killed hundreds of people over the last few years. And in Canada, one of their goons (see the story) tried attacking the Prime Minister with a weapon recently.

Another one of these far right nuts, another military guy, tried fleeing Manitoba and was caught in the US, probably while trying to meet up with his fellow extremists.

There is now coverage in the media about how these far right groups and militias are gaining power in Canada. Something I've warned about for years. These are very dangerous people. That includes places like Rebel, which encourage this kind of right wing violence and radicalism and even list a US domestic extremist among their alumni.

So yeah, political movements which make a routine of killing people are not valid movements. The US far right is a dangerous, extremist movement.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> They are trying to suppress anti-government voices. Plain and simple.
> 
> Authoritarian regimes around the world do this all the time. Americans usually criticize it and say those other countries need liberty and freedom. Often they even fly in troops, like @MrMatt , to bring that liberty and freedom to the backward societies which lack it.
> 
> Americans are exercising their liberty and freedom. This isn't that hard to understand, unless of course you've been brainwashed by the billionaire elites running Fox News.


It isn't free speech to kill people.

I'm glad Blake isn't going to rape again. Go protest for rapists, and against the brave men trying to stop them.
There is something seriously wrong with that.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

The Canadian government has Gagetown where they teach a young and innocent 18 year old human mind in the acts of Killology.
Isolation for 6 months "Basic Training".
Killing another human being is totally against human nature.
Psychological changes need to happen with the new recruit or they will be excommunicated and discharged.





Dave Grossman (author) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Is anybody with a degree in Killology angry with the government? 

Maybe some Killology Students thrive on Violent Heroism and love militarism and protests?

You don't want these guys joining "QAnon".


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> It isn't free speech to kill people.
> 
> I'm glad Blake isn't going to rape again. Go protest for rapists, and against the brave men trying to stop them.


Sometimes I wonder if _you_ might be a far right goon yourself, especially when you post this kind of bizarre far right nonsense, repeated straight from their propaganda outlets. I actually think you have been radicalized by the far right media. And you're a military member too... sad.

You've been posting far right propaganda for a long time on this board. You recently got banned for posting some of the crazier new Q Anon conspiracy theories.

You know, the military has started looking into this condition. You should try staying off their radar; this is a public board, and they might be aware that they have another one of their rogue members showing signs of radicalization.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

I don't know about a rape charge. Perhaps true?

Records reveal Blake was arrested in 2013 in Round Lake Beach and criminal trespass to a vehicle.

Arrested in 2012 in Zion, Ill. for domestic battery, endangering the life and health of a child and driving under the influence.

Blake is currently facing a rape charge in Kenosha.
A warrant was issued for Blake’s arrest on July 7 on felony 3rd degree sexual assault, disorderly conduct and criminal trespass, all related to domestic abuse.
3rd Degree Sexual Assault




__





Wisconsin Circuit Court Access







wcca.wicourts.gov


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Sometimes I wonder if _you_ might be a far right goon yourself, especially when you post this kind of bizarre far right nonsense, repeated straight from their propaganda outlets. I actually think you have been radicalized by the far right media. And you're a military member too... sad.
> 
> You've been posting far right propaganda for a long time on this board. You recently got banned for posting some of the crazier new Q Anon conspiracy theories.
> 
> You know, the military has started looking into this condition. You should try staying off their radar; this is a public board, and they might be aware that they have another one of their rogue members showing signs of radicalization.


Killing people isn't free speech. << how is that "far right nonsense"

Yes I think rapists should be killed or castrated. Yeah, that's pretty extreme, but I don't like rapists.
Again being anti-rape isn't some "far right" position. Unfortunately it does seem to be more of a center-right position, but I'm not shy to say I'm against rape.

I just googled Q anon, that's hilarious. Sounds like they are the political incarnation of flat earthers,.

Radicalization? That racism is bad? Again Iagree that this is a right wing position, but it's one I hold strongly and proudly.

I got banned because I said some of Joe Bidens behaviour around young girls was inappropriate. There is video of this. To be fair I used rather harsh words to describe his behaviour, but I don't think anyone should be subjected to unwanted intrusions into their physical space, particularly minors.


If you're against violence, racism, and sexism, that's good, and it's not, or at least I hope not, a "far right" position to be for racial and sexual equality.

So if you're going to sit there and call me "far right", I'd at least appreciate a single position that's far right?


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Jacob Blake: More Info :

One of the matters the cops may have wished to speak to Blake about was his open warrant for felony sexual assault. But in 2020, if he’s not interested, a Black man doesn’t have to discuss his warrant with nobody.

So, Blake fell to brawling with the police. Eventually he was tased, but without apparent effect. When he got up, a policeman pointed his gun at the 29-year-old security guard to encourage him to desist. But instead of complying, he strode around to the driver’s side of his vehicle, as the police shouted to him to “Drop the knife!” He opened the door and reached in, at which point the cop grabbing his shirt shot him seven times. (Remarkably, he isn’t dead, so far.)

Whether Blake really had a knife in his hand (the video is fuzzy) or a gun inside his car, or was just trying to make his getaway, is not known at this time.

Five years earlier, Blake had been involved in a similar resisting-arrest incident in which, after pulling a gun in a bar dispute, he was pulled over and charged the police. Back then, it turned out that he did have a gun in his SUV.

Fortunately, the police in 2015 brought along Dozer, Racine’s most celebrated police dog, who sent Blake to the hospital with a bite wound.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Orlando and Milwaukee Boycott NBA Playoff Game.

This action by the NBA is so gigantic. A huge moment in time that we will all remember for ions and ions.

It is like somebody fired a cannon in the main public square of every American city. Everybody has heard the message.

Like hearing Martin Luther King with the I Have A Dream Speech.

I'm thinking that the media is going to totally destroy the reputation of Jacob Blake. The less pity Joe Public has towards Jacob Blake the less impact the NBA boycott will gain.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Yesterday, a right wing extremist (Kyle Rittenhouse) took an illegal gun to one of the Wisconsin protests, shot into the crowded street and killed 2 people. He shot one person in the head, another in the chest, and shot a third person who survived.

Another horrendous far right attack, more people dead. This just keeps happening... the radical right has killed so many people in various countries.

Guys like Rittenhouse used to regularly come to the streets of Portland. On more than one occasion, I saw armed men (militias) wandering the streets near my office. I posted about it in the past, commenting that it's just a matter of time before they open fire and kill residents ... as Rittenhouse did yesterday.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Oh......it gets worse than that.

There is video of the police mingling and encouraging armed militia types and offering them water bottles, with police telling them how much they appreciate them helping out.

This 17 year old (illegal to carry a gun at that age), was also filmed walking down the street with his weapon towards police, while people were screaming that he had just shot people, and the police just let him walk on by. It is reported he is a Trump supporter and came in from another State.

When the Sheriff was interviewed and asked about the incident, he smirked and said they give water bottles to lots of folks.

It all seems so surreal when watching from a distance. Are they all idiots or something ?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> Oh......it gets worse than that.
> . . .
> It all seems so surreal when watching from a distance. Are they all idiots or something ?


We saw this in Portland too. It's why people are so angry at the police. The police are (not so secretly) sympathetic to the far right. Some of their members are even in this movement, for example the militias and clubs. Trump also commented, accurately, that he has lots of support among police and military.

When I lived in Portland, there was an incident where armed right wing radicals, people like Kyle, set up sniper positions on rooftops. Near my office. The police saw this stuff and let it happen. It's because they feel a brothership with these goons.

So when unarmed "liberals" and "blacks" protest, or speak up against the police, you gas them or shoot them in the head. But when a white right winger comes down the street brandishing his *illegally owned* automatic weapon, fresh from killing 2 people in the street, you wave to him and tell him to have a nice day.

That is LITERALLY what happened, and the footage is clear as day. Go check it out, it's jaw dropping.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Watching the videos of that 17 year old kid, and looking at him walking along looking behind him and all around and then looking at his photos, I can't help but feel so badly for him despite what he did. He is a kid.........but will be tried and convicted as an adult. He will go to adult prison for the rest of his life, where he will be housed with the worst kind of criminals. As he walked along the street he had no idea of what was going to happen to him.

His life is another one wasted in this incident, and for what ? There are pictures of him in the front row of a Trump rally in 2020 and the White House simply disavows any responsibility and expresses support for the "fast action" of the police. Not a word about this kid's future or how he arrived at where he did to commit these terrible crimes. They could care less about the kid or protestors killed. 

What about the kid's family ? His mother and father ? What a tragedy all around.

I don't know what the answer is, but the US has to address the rampant violence that permeates their society. 

Every society has problems with violence, but the US stands out from most others.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> We saw this in Portland too. It's why people are so angry at the police. The police are (not so secretly) sympathetic to the far right. Some of their members are even in this movement, for example the militias and clubs. Trump also commented, accurately, that he has lots of support among police and military.
> 
> When I lived in Portland, there was an incident where armed right wing radicals, people like Kyle, set up sniper positions on rooftops. Near my office. The police saw this stuff and let it happen. It's because they feel a brothership with these goons.
> 
> ...


Someone has an illegal weapon and commits a crime, maybe the POLICE should ENFORCE THE LAW. Oh wait, we defunded them and told them to stand down.

Oh, and what footage are you talking about, you didn't provide a link.


You keep saying Far right, like it has some meaning.
Can you define it? (doubt it)
People have called those calling for marijuanna legalization, and universal health care and universal basic income "far right".
It's just an overused attempt a slur that has no meaning. You stand up against racism and racists, and they call you "far right".
The political discussion has fallen apart



But yes, this is the world the rioters want, they want to defund the police and leave it to the community to sort out.
Well people are listening, and stepping up to defend their communities. Like the rioters want.
But now that it's happening, they realized maybe it is a bad idea. Crime in the defund police areas is skyrocketting. Maybe we should come up with rules for behaviour (laws) and create a system to enforce them (justice system).

It's insane that these rioters are trying to destroy civilization, then act surprised when bad things happen.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

During the news conference with the police yesterday, they all said that an "Independent" investigation by a separate police force would take place.

In the next breath he was almost in tears explaining just how close "Brothers and Sisters" are and he was so proud that all police forces stepped up to help the local police.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

People need to stop resisting arrest. It does not excuse excessive use of force, but people really should not be surprised that failure to comply with police orders results in force being employed. It doesn't matter if the stop was justified or the orders were lawful or not-- sort that out later.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> People need to stop resisting arrest. It does not excuse excessive use of force, but people really should not be surprised that failure to comply with police orders results in force being employed. It doesn't matter if the stop was justified or the orders were lawful or not-- sort that out later.


The police were called to arrest someone who was causing a domestic disturbance
He had warrants out for his arrest, including apparently sexually abusing someone.
He had previously assaulted police.

He resisted arrest, and was armed with a lethal weapon, which he refused to drop.

I'm not sure what else would be requried to consider this justified. The police really had no other options.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

I think that this guy was in the middle of a family breakup. It had been going on for months.

His world was crashing around him.
He was not really functioning properly.

He shows up and starts the bar-b-q and pretends to be a Daddy in front of his kids.

Maybe the police had reason to be afraid and might of known that Jacob Blake was an Emotional Basket Case in the midst of restraining orders and stuff.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

My statement is more general. You see too many of these situations stemming in part from people resisting arrest. Sometimes the police are in the right and sometimes they are not. George Floyd likely would not have ended up on the ground with an officer's knee on his neck for nearly 9 minutes if he had not been resisting. It does not excuse the nature of the force that was used, but if you watch the body cam footage leading up to the incident, you can clearly see he was acting erratically and not complying with police orders (he was resisting getting into the vehicle). He did seem to either have mental health issues or was intoxicated.

I can also understand the flip side of this situation. When you are stopped by police repeatedly at much higher rates than most, I can understand how the frustration can make one want to resist. But you can be right and still end up dead.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> I can also understand the flip side of this situation. When you are stopped by police repeatedly at much higher rates than most, I can understand how the frustration can make one want to resist. But you can be right and still end up dead.


I think you're missing and important part of the inequality which black people and minorities are speaking up against.

The police react very differently to white vs black and brown people. Consider the white shooter who just killed two people. He had an automatic weapon, was approaching police with it (after just killing two people), and holding his hands up ... somewhat. He held them up a bit, then he goes back down and touches the weapon. He kept walking and moving.

If this 17 year old was black, approaching police with an automatic weapon, still walking, they would have screamed at him to STOP, and then filled his body full of bullets and he would have been killed from a distance. He wouldn't have even had a chance.

The white man sauntered by, with the weapon dangling, even touching it.

That's why people protest. The entire perspective of police is completely warped to begin with -- they are racists.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ I don't disagree with any of that. But resisting police is a recipe for having force used against you. Stop doing it.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I think you're missing and important part of the inequality which black people and minorities are speaking up against.
> 
> The police react very differently to white vs black and brown people. Consider the white shooter who just killed two people. He had an automatic weapon, was approaching police with it (after just killing two people), and holding his hands up ... somewhat. He held them up a bit, then he goes back down and touches the weapon. He kept walking and moving.
> 
> ...


It wasn't an "automatic weapon" it was a semi auto hunting rifle.

Also the only video out there is that he shot at people attacking him, several with weapons, one of them with a handgun.
Interesting note, I think all the people he shot had previous convictions for violent crime.

The kid was there to protect the community, and offer medical aid, he cut short interview earlier to render aid.

Sorry, armed mob attacks an EMT offering medical aid, shooting back is self defense. It's pretty darn clear cut. The NYT analysis is pretty nice, when someone starts shooting, you're allowed to shoot back in self defence. When someone hits you with a weapon, or points a gun at you, you can shoot back.

That's what people are seeing, we have dangerous mobs of criminals, who dont' want justice.

Chauvin was charged isn't that justice?
Blake was a clean shoot, but they riot anyway, why?
They're angered about Rittenhouse, but why, that was CLEARLY self defense.

They don't want justice, they just want to loot and riot. Don't they care about people and their community?


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

When the Occupy Wall Street protests were happening, many people ranted on about violence and the inconvenience of bringing downtown New York to a standstill.

It seems every time a protest happens, the pro-Capitalists bury the demands of the protesters with complaints about violence, inconvenience, and whatever. 

I think that all this complaining about violence is purposeful and intentional and allows the Pro-Capitalists to ignore the demands of protesters. It also justifies the Pro-Capitalists paying the police to continue beating protesters rather than to negotiate.

The Pro-Capitalists are hiding behind the protester violence and refusing to negotiate in good faith with the residents of the community.

Imagine if we branded all the Capitalists as being violent after they invested in bomb making industries and one bomb went astray or off target and killed innocents?

Inequality and racism causes much more violence within communities than isolated protester violence has.

I sure wish people would be just as angry with Inequality and Racism than they seem to be with protester violence.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> It seems every time a protest happens, the pro-Capitalists bury the demands of the protesters with complaints about violence, inconvenience, and whatever.
> 
> I sure wish people would be just as angry with Inequality and Racism than they seem to be with protester violence.


I think everyone who isn't a sociopath should be angry with violence.

I agree, the increase in racism is a HUGE problem. I can't believe how flagrant racism is actually being promoted by these groups, and the mainstream opinion seems to be that racism and sexism are good. 

I'm glad to see that more people are deciding enough is enough, stop the racism, stop the violence.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> I think everyone who isn't a sociopath should be angry with violence.


I would say that most everyone is disappointed with the violence.
Why not direct our "disappointment" and energy towards dealing with inequality and racism instead of rants against the violence taking place?
I think that hiding behind the violence as an excuse not to act against racism and inequality is causing more harm to our society than the protester violence.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> I would say that most everyone is disappointed with the violence.
> Why not direct our "disappointment" and energy towards dealing with inequality and racism instead of rants against the violence taking place?
> I think that hiding behind the violence as an excuse not to act against racism and inequality is causing more harm to our society than the protester violence.


The people who are being violent are the ones perpetuating racism and inequality.

The violence breeds more inequality.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

You Know In Your Heart That the Day of Real Resistance Is Coming

You know in your hearts that only a Sixties Style Movement will address this situation.
You know in your hearts that electeds are impotent or bought, and elections alone will never be enough.
You know in your hearts that the day of Real Resistance is coming. How about now?




__





DownWithTyranny!: You Know In Your Heart That the Day of Real Resistance Is Coming







downwithtyranny.blogspot.com




----
The nation may not be to that point yet, but it’s not far away. That’s why big-media outlets like the New York Times want to paint these protests, all of them, as either “chaotic” or left-wing-violent only, and why they hide the state violence that incites and encourages those violent responses. A real left-wing movement — a 1960s-style revolt, a real rising of the people — is the stuff of nightmares for editors at the Times, and many of its readers as well.
By Yves Smith
August 28, 2020








You Know In Your Heart That the Day of Real Resistance Is Coming | naked capitalism


First demonstrations across the US, now a guillotine in front of Jeff Bezos' house. Is this more #Resistance or a system-breaking resistance?




www.nakedcapitalism.com


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

It isn't peaceful protestors who are causing the violence and destruction. 

It is now a tactic of the alt right to integrate themselves into a protest and create violence.

The leftist groups then push back to protect themselves and the violence then becomes the story rather than the underlying issues for the protest.

When the Republican convention features a pair of gun toting citizens pointing loaded weapons at peaceful protestors passing by..........it shows the problem runs deep into politics.

Trump has encouraged this type of violence throughout his election run and Presidency. It should come as no surprise that some have responded to it.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Americans are waiting for the November election, assuming that Joe Biden will win easily.

If Trump tries to steal the election...........we haven't seen anything like what is going to happen.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

I think that police are going to be treated quite differently now.
Police should of remained neutral during this election campaign.
They are now "Republican" police ..... "Trump Police".

Policing is now a "Religion" and not a community service.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> It isn't peaceful protestors who are causing the violence and destruction.


I agree, it's the violent rioters.



> It is now a tactic of the alt right to integrate themselves into a protest and create violence.
> 
> The leftist groups then push back to protect themselves and the violence then becomes the story rather than the underlying issues for the protest.


I say the police should arrest the violent rioters, regardless of their political views.
I don't know what you consider alt-right.



> When the Republican convention features a pair of gun toting citizens pointing loaded weapons at peaceful protestors passing by..........it shows the problem runs deep into politics.


Peaceful protesters don't break and enter onto private property. 
They were trespassing criminals who were told to leave private property.
Did law enforcement arrest the tresspassers, or the homeowners LEGALLY protecting their property.

The problem is these leftist politicians are encouraging this violence, they have politicized justice.
Criminal acts are being permitted if not encouraged, as long as you're on their side, and that is the BIG problem.

I'm also glad Blake isn't going to hurt any more people.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

NBC ---- Address by Martin Luther King III
A very good speaker ..... He did us proud!

Just listen to the grievances ....... and the media is saying that these protests are just minor disruptions within our societies.

From chains to .....

"A Knee on the neck of Democracy."

"Enough Is Enough"

He did me proud.

The huge crowds in Washington show how much force it will take to control the unrest across the country. The crowds in Washington represent how much support BLM has across the country.

This is not 5 or 6 kids standing around on street corners causing this turmoil.

That means lots of Social Control work for "Non-Lethal" force by the cops.

Time to negotiate?
Are we going to endlessly complain about violence in an attempt to discredit the movement and ignore the grievances? These grievances have been screamed about for 50 years. I was born in 1948 and I have heard these same grievances for my complete lifetime.

And the only reply that the Capitalists can muster is that the "Radical Left Terrorists" are trying to take and destroy everything you own.

The U.S. Capitalists are demanding the protesters just quit complaining and accept that life does not take a Village, but it takes a Pillage instead.

For 50 years I witnessed the racism and where Blacks were treated like the Jewish Folks were in Germany. Jewish Folks have been in courtrooms across the universe, demanding redress for the exact same crimes committed against them by Hitler and The Boys.

Minorities in America suffer the same predjudice that the Palestinian People are. Palestinian People are being treated like second class citizens in their own land. The holocaust carried out against the People of Palestine happened on my watch and I feel responsible for it happening. (I was born 1948)

The battle rages onward.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> NBC ---- Address by Martin Luther King III
> A very good speaker ..... He did us proud!
> 
> Just listen to the grievances ....... and the media is saying that these protests are just minor disruptions within our societies.
> ...


So proud you can't provide a link?


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> So proud you can't provide a link?


It was a live broadcast on NBC that I was watching in real time as I composed my thoughts in the post. (still in progress)

Here is a small clip from the event on YouTube.
Martin Luther King III


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> It was a live broadcast on NBC that I was watching in real time as I composed my thoughts in the post. (still in progress)
> 
> Here is a small clip from the event on YouTube.
> Martin Luther King III


Pretty lame political speech IMO, he ain't his daddy.
Didn't even denounce all the violence.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

"Trayvon Martin was killled in February 2012 .... What has America done since that sad day to make lives better and safer for the victims of our police — and the victims of the economic system that creates police victims?

The whole police shtick is tired & perverted. I’m sure my future grandkids will ask, “in cops & robbers, who are the bad guys?” & we can all see, the answer isn’t the robbers. At least they don’t pretend to be saviors while robbing you.

The rich get the poor to kill each other, while they steal both of them blind.

"I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half."
--Jay Gould, 1886--

FBI warned of white supremacists in law enforcement 10 years ago. Has anything changed?
In the 2006 bulletin, the FBI detailed the threat of white nationalists and skinheads infiltrating police in order to disrupt investigations against fellow members and recruit other supremacists. The bulletin was released during a period of scandal for many law enforcement agencies throughout the country, including a neo-Nazi gang formed by members of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department who harassed black and Latino communities. Similar investigations revealed officers and entire agencies with hate group ties in Illinois, Ohio and Texas.
By Kenya Downs
October 21, 2016








FBI warned of white supremacists in law enforcement 10 years ago. Has anything changed?


In 2006, the FBI warned that white supremacists infiltrating local and state law enforcement posed a threat to national security. Some are asking, what's been done to curb the trend in the decade since?




www.pbs.org


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> "Trayvon Martin was killled in February 2012 .... What has America done since that sad day to make lives better and safer for the victims of our police — and the victims of the economic system that creates police victims?
> 
> The whole police shtick is tired & perverted. I’m sure my future grandkids will ask, “in cops & robbers, who are the bad guys?” & we can all see, the answer isn’t the robbers. At least they don’t pretend to be saviors while robbing you.
> 
> ...


Well a few things.

1. Trayvon Martin wasn't killed by police, in fact he was actually shot in self defence by a Person of Color.
2. Canadian police are FAR better supervised than typical US police, but we should do better.
3. The economic system we have now isn't perfect, but it's better than the systems that came before. Nobody is proposing a better system. Compared to facism, or communism, our current system is orders of magnitude better.

The crazy thing with the recent protests is that so many have died, so many people are having their cities destroyed, and they were precipitated by events that aren't even good examples of unaccountable police behaviour.
Floyd OD'd on drugs, and Chauvin is still being charged for his part.
Blake was an armed offender with a history of assaulting police, and outstanding warrants, who resisted arrest, and was only shot after TASERs didn't work twice.

As far as the rise in white supremacy, yes, and the Left is institutionalizing it. They're actually pushing for racial quotas, because they believe that other races simply can't make it on merit.

Anyone who thinks performance or merit is racist, is racist.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

The more protests happening inside America, the more prestige America loses on the world stage. Each time a head of a protester is bludgeoned and viewed in TV-Land across the universe, has America in decline on the world stage.

If anything, I think America is going to be shamed to the negotiating table with the protesters.

There are just too many heads to bash, too many bones to fracture, and yet still say your hands are not bloody with shame on the world stage.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> 1. Trayvon Martin wasn't killed by police, in fact he was actually shot in self defence by a Person of Color.
> -


I knew the Trayvon Martin story quite well ......I was making the point that it was 8 years ago. (2012)

The reason that the RCMP became an important and indispensable asset to the Federal Government was because they "Excelled" at beating unemployed protesters in Winnipeg. Before that they were nobodies.


https://www.cbc.ca/history/EPISCONTENTSE1EP12CH3PA2LE.html


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> Americans are waiting for the November election, assuming that Joe Biden will win easily.


But sags, I heard Biden is an extreme leftie ... lol, these Republicans are out of this world.

US Democrats barely even qualify as left wing. Both political parties in the US are right and pro-corporate; the choice is between moderate right (D) and far right (R).

The Democrats are pretty good for the average millionaire and the Republicans are pretty good for the average billionaire.

One day they're going to get a new political force that is going to unseat these guys. Do you know that America used to have top marginal tax rates around 90% for the very rich? It will come back, one day.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> 1. Trayvon Martin wasn't killed by police, in fact he was actually shot in self defence by a Person of Color.


I don't know how you can defend Zimmerman. He was a neighbourhood busybody with power fantasies who stalked a teen and when confronted killed him. All I can say is that it's too bad Martin wasn't carrying a gun to kill Zimmerman in self defense. But that is just the insanity of US gun laws in stand your ground states that you are better off killing people before you get killed. All you need is to say you felt threatened.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I don't know how you can defend Zimmerman. He was a neighbourhood busybody with power fantasies who stalked a teen and when confronted killed him. All I can say is that it's too bad Martin wasn't carrying a gun to kill Zimmerman in self defense. But that is just the insanity of US gun laws in stand your ground states that you are better off killing people before you get killed. All you need is to say you felt threatened.


I never defended Zimmerman, just relayed the findings of the courts.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Last night, a caravan of pro-Trump vehicles drove through Portland to intimidate and harass the residents. The MAGA people doing this live outside of Portland, either in suburbs or rural areas. So they aren't residents... they come to the city to cause trouble and have been doing this for years.

One of the groups present was, as usual, Patriot Prayer. They are an armed gang who have been coming into Portland for several years, always with the intention to intimidate the residents, and often to pick fights. Patriot Prayer are the guys who set up a sniper position on a rooftop near my old office back in 2018.

OPB reports that the Trump trucks fired paintball guns and what's believed to be pepper spray at residents. What a horrible sport ... driving into the city to assault and intimidate residents for ideological reasons.

The reports coming out now say that one of the Patriot Prayer members has been shot and killed. This is a tragic escalation of violence.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> OPB reports that the Trump trucks fired paintball guns and what's believed to be pepper spray at residents. What a horrible sport ... driving into the city to assault and intimidate residents for ideological reasons.


That's why people are angry at the rioters, and the failure of state and local governments to enforce the law. 
It's getting to the point of being out of control, did you see the Rittenhouse shooting?
A kid is cleaning graffiti and providing medical aid.

At some point they decide to start shooting at him, so he returns fire and takes off, they chase him down the street and start attacking him. From the news report you'd think that he was the instigator.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

You have a completely twisted sense of cause & effect. In both the case of Rittenhouse and last night's Portland shooting, it's aggressive right-wing radicals who are coming to the city to *cause* trouble. They are the instigators. Rittenhouse literally drove from one state to the other with camo gear and a semiautomatic weapon.

In Portland, this MAGA convoy was driving through the city, shooting paint balls and pepper spray at people. Many of them are armed with guns too. The Proud Boys gangsters have been causing trouble like this for years... assaulting people in Portland. They organize the transportation (always starting from rural areas and sometimes other states), load up weapons, and go to Portland.

So while they were driving around town, shooting paint balls and assaulting the residents of Portland in a show of far-right force, it seems that somebody shot one of the Proud Boys gangsters.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Rittenhouse drove to a neighbouring city, cleaned graffiti and provided medical assistance to protestors and those who needed it. I want that kind of "troublemaker".

Later, someone decided to start shooting at him, he returned fire and ran away from the armed people assaulting him.
He only shot at people who were actively assaulting him, after they attacked him. It's interesting that (to the best of my knowledge) all the people who got shot while attacking him had previous charges for violent offenses. 

I don't know about what Portland incident you're talking about. In case you didn't know, Portland is a rather large city and has a lot going on, and you've got to be a bit more clear about what specific incident you're talking about.

Well I think Portland wants to defund the police, it does open up the space for troublemakers, look at the number of murders and rapes in CHAZ/CHOP.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is no evidence that Rittenhouse was ever shot at. There is no evidence that he ever provided medical aid to anyone.

Rittenhouse is no boy scout. There is video out now showing him assaulting a girl by punching her in the head from behind. This is your boy !


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/awfuleverything/comments/iiz38q


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Jacob Blake's mom says violence doesn't reflect her son
Julia Jackson, whose son Jacob Blake was shot by police as he tried to enter a SUV, called for healing and condemned violent protests during a news conference, saying "violence
-----------------
Transcript:








Jacob Blake Family Press Conference Transcript August 25


Ben Crump: (01:41) Good afternoon. I'm attorney Ben Crump, along with attorney Patrick Savi and attorney Patrick Savi, jr. Attorney B Ivory Lamar, attorney Tar




www.rev.com




CNN - The Lead
August 25, 2020
(Flash Video)








Jacob Blake's mom says violence doesn't reflect her son - CNN Video


Julia Jackson, whose son Jacob Blake was shot by police as he tried to enter a SUV, called for healing and condemned violent protests during a news conference, saying "violence doesn't reflect my son."




www.cnn.com


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Rittenhouse ......


> "Look at this boy. Imagine what kind of vile poison has been poured into his young mind for years by some of the wealthiest, most powerful people in the land -- indeed, the world. Rupert Murdoch, first and foremost. Donald Trump. The Mercers. The Sinclairs. The DeVos clan. The Kochs. The whole network of extremist billionaires funding hate groups and "think tanks" churning out justification for the domination of society by rapacious, unaccountable elites. The Falwells and Robertsons and other con artists growing rich on the utter perversion of the religion they falsely profess. The social media networks that have gleefully and profitably let floods of hatred and lies stream across the globe, day in, day out. The Republican Party – all of them, even the "moderates" like Lamar Alexander or Susan Collins, who have sat by silently as a gangster and his goons took over the US government, who have supported the gangster and Murdoch and the Kochs and the Mercers and all the rest.





> This boy – living, like so many, in a violent, hate-soaked, hallucinated reality created, for profit, by the rich and powerful – is fully responsible for the evil he has committed. But I tell you this. Rupert Murdoch is also responsible for these murders. Donald Trump is also responsible for these murders. Lamar Alexander is also responsible for these murders. All those who have weaponized and/or monetized hatred and ignorance; all those who have profited from the denigration and destruction of the very notion of the common good, of human commonality, of the inherent worth of every single human being; all those, throughout "respectable" society, who looked away while these tides of hatred were rising, fuelled by the rich and powerful -- oligarchs and corporations who bribe and fund and call the tune for both parties – all of them are also responsible for these murders.





> The murderous rot in this country starts at the top, and it has spread all the way down, into the very minds of our children. We are in a much darker and more dangerous place than most of us can bear to contemplate (myself included). But we must brace ourselves, for we have not yet, even now, seen the worst of what's to come. We must be ready, with eyes open; we must be steadfast, even with despair battering our hearts. And, heeding the words Bob Dylan sang 40 years ago, we must fight, always, to strengthen the things that remain."







__





Kenosha Goddam: The Rot at the Top Goes All the Way Down - Chris Floyd - Empire Burlesque - High Crimes and Low Comedy in the American Imperium


This is the boy who drove hundreds of miles to a town he didn't live in, joining many other armed extremists from outside, with the specific intent of confronting American citizens protesting the shooting of an unarmed man seven times in the back,




www.chris-floyd.com


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

But the Republicans have to elevate Rittenhouse to martyr for the cause, defending liberty and fighting against crime........to justify their agenda.

If they condemn him they also contemn all the culpable parties, admit that guns in the hands of citizens is a terrible idea, their policies seriously flawed, and their ideals compromised by malicious minds.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

The Social Fabric of the U.S. Is Fraying Severely, if Not Unravelling
Why, in the world’s richest country, is every metric of mental health pathology rapidly worsening?
----
One question posed by researchers was whether someone has “seriously considered suicide in the past 30 days”— not fleetingly considered it as a momentary fantasy nor thought about it ever in their lifetime, but seriously considered suicide at least once in the past 30 days. The results are staggering.
....
For Americans between 18-24 years old, 25.5 percent — just over 1 out of every 4 young Americans — said they had. For the much larger group of Americans ages 25-44, the percentage was somewhat lower but still extremely alarming: 16 percent. A total of 18.6 percent of Hispanic Americans and 15 percent of African Americans said they had seriously considered suicide in the past month. The two groups with the largest percentage who said yes: Americans with less than a high school degree and unpaid caregivers, both of whom have 30 percent — or almost 1 out of every 3 — who answered in the affirmative. A full 10 percent of the U.S. population generally had seriously contemplated suicide in the month of June.
Intercept- System Update
Host Glenn Greenwald
August 28 2020
Transcript:








The Social Fabric of the U.S. Is Fraying Severely, if Not Unravelling


Why, in the world’s richest country, is every metric of mental health pathology rapidly worsening?




theintercept.com




(YouTube Video)


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> There is no evidence that Rittenhouse was ever shot at.


Don't trust your lying eyes, just listen to the media.

You did watch the video, right?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Yeah, when I want to do volunteer work I also lock & load my semiautomatic rifle and make sure I take enough ammo.

Get real. That's not volunteer work, that's itching for a massacre. Trump has been energizing his cult supporters and motivating them to go looking for a war. This is basically what I warned about one year ago in this post.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

To be blunt: the far right (MAGA) cult members *want* to provoke Americans. They want fights, especially public fights.

Portland streets were calm recently until far right activity picked up within the last 2 weeks. Last night they rolled a fleet of vehicles into the city, harassing and assaulting residents... this is done to look for a fight. It's not altruism, patriotism, or volunteer work.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Yeah, when I want to do volunteer work I also lock & load my semiautomatic rifle and make sure I take enough ammo.


And when I peaceful protest I take a gun with me and try to murder someone. The mistake they made was thinking that by outnumbering him 3 to 1 that they would have gotten away with it.



> Get real. That's not volunteer work, that's itching for a massacre. Trump has been energizing his cult supporters and motivating them to go looking for a war. This is basically what I warned about one year ago in this post.


The Democrats heartedly support the riots and violence, and and in fact, actively encourage it. It's not Trump's fault that Democrat cities run by Democrat mayors and Democrat police chiefs let local terrorists loot, burn, and murder innocent people.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

That speech by the mayor of Portland just gave the election to Joe Biden. The mayor sounds "Sincere" and Trump sounds like a show boat.
The speech given by the mayor was just devastating against Trump.

Edit: 6pm
'It's you who have created the hate': Portland mayor blasts Trump
Mayor Ted Wheeler of Portland, Oregon, excoriates President Donald Trump during a press conference addressing a shooting at a protest that left one person dead.
CNN - NewsRoom
August 30, 2020








1 person is dead after a shooting during protests in downtown Portland | CNN


A person was shot and killed in downtown Portland Saturday night after an evening of violent clashes between Trump supporters and protesters denouncing police brutality.




www.cnn.com




(Flash Video)








Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler blasts Donald Trump: It's you who have created the hate - CNN Video


Mayor Ted Wheeler of Portland, Oregon, excoriates President Donald Trump during a press conference addressing a shooting at a protest that left one person dead.




www.cnn.com


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## 5Lgreenback (Mar 21, 2015)

Portland streets were calm until recently? Nightly riots for 3 months straight, I guess you could call that calm.
.
The latest- a "trump supporter" was virtually executed in the streets of Portland. In the video you can hear a man say "we got a trump supporter here" as someone walks up to him, shoots him twice, and runs away.

The mainstream spin, however, is just calling it a clash between two groups of people and trying to frame it as an altercation that went wrong. 

There was no altercation. It was a cold blooded execution and if the victim was considered to be BLM or radical leftist member you could bet the media would be calling for blood and framing these events very differently.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

In the 1960's and 70's and when there were protests, the media did the same thing that they are doing today.

It was all about the violence and the bombings and the killings.

In the 60's the media never explained how our society could function properly and gainfully when millions of black people were on food stamps.

The media likes the "Lawyer Game" and not the "Economic Game".
The Lawyer Game allows the media to chat on about Rights.
The media wants everybody to know that you got the Right To Complain.
That is all.

The U.S. Capitalists are all screaming .....

You don't have a "Right" to live a life above the poverty line, .... But you do have the "Right" to complain about it.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> There is no evidence that Rittenhouse was ever shot at. There is no evidence that he ever provided medical aid to anyone.
> 
> Rittenhouse is no boy scout. There is video out now showing him assaulting a girl by punching her in the head from behind. This is your boy !
> 
> ...


No evidence, except that pesky video.

The New York Times reviewed video and put together a timeline, not sure if they're now ALT-RIGHT, or not, but the evidence is there.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

One Author's Argument 'In Defense Of Looting'

"a new energy of resistance is building across the country." Now, as protests and riots continue to grip cities, she argues that looting is a powerful tool to bring about real, lasting change in society. The rioters who smash windows and take items from stores, she says, are engaging in a powerful tactic that questions the justice of "law and order," and the distribution of property and wealth in an unequal society.

VICKY OSTERWEIL: When I use the word looting, I mean the mass expropriation of property, mass shoplifting during a moment of upheaval or riot. That's the thing I'm defending. I'm not defending any situation in which property is stolen by force. It's not a home invasion, either. It's about a certain kind of action that's taken during protests and riots.

Looting is a highly racialized word from its very inception in the English language. It's taken from Hindi, lút, which means "goods" or "spoils," and it appears in an English colonial officer's handbook [on "Indian Vocabulary"] in the 19th century.
By Natalie Escobar
August 27, 2020








One Author's Controversial View: 'In Defense Of Looting'


In her provocative book, writer Vicky Osterweil argues that looting is a tool to bring about change in society.




www.npr.org


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Rare Footage of the 1965 Watts Riots
55 Years After Riots, Watts Neighborhood Still Bears Scars

The violence reflected pent-up anger over an abusive police force, a problem that has ebbed but not entirely faded, according to those who live in Watts.
From the Archives: Rare footage of the 1965 Watts Riots in Los Angeles. The riots started after white CHP officer performed a traffic stop on a African American driver as crowds watched. The incident exploded, leading to six days of riots. More than 30 people died and there was 40 million dollars worth of damage in Los Angeles. 
NBCLA
By Brian Melley
August 1965
(YouTube Video)


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Trump is definitely the most dangerous western politician I've ever seen.

He's encouraging more violence. In the wake of yesterday's Portland violence, he has tweeted about 90 times today (!!) encouraging brave MAGA people who are fighting. He's retweeted footage of them firing paintballs at the crowds (assault) and repeated theories that the liberals are plotting a coup against him.

This guy does not want to calm things down or end violence. *He's directly inciting violence... he loves it.*

I didn't know that western politicians were capable of this kind of thing.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

calm said:


> Rare Footage of the 1965 Watts Riots
> 55 Years After Riots, Watts Neighborhood Still Bears Scars


As you point out, this certainly isn't the first time there have been significant protests against actions of the state. But in 1965, do you think Lyndon B Johnson voiced encouragement for both factions to assault and fight each other?

Did he praise the actions of one side of the conflict and encourage them to do more of the same? It's possible he did, I don't know, but I doubt it ... because only an insane man would do that to his own country.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Trump is definitely the most dangerous western politician I've ever seen.
> 
> He's encouraging more violence. In the wake of yesterday's Portland violence, he has tweeted about 90 times today (!!) encouraging brave MAGA people who are fighting. He's retweeted footage of them firing paintballs at the crowds (assault) and repeated theories that the liberals are plotting a coup against him.
> 
> ...


We've had months of BLM and the Left rioting and looting calling to destroy the country.
Politicians and major companies are falling for it, and letting them go ahead with their destructive agenda.

Ordinary Americans don't agree, It's time they stand up and defend their country. The companies and politicians need to understand that ordinary people don't support them

Most people thought that the leftist extremists would tire themselves out,but it seems months in that they have no intention to do so.
It doesn't matter that they're defending criminals and rapists, but despite their best efforts, the truth is coming out and people are angry.

We don't want violent rapists (like Blake) out free on the streets terrorizing families. Ordinary people want criminals like that in jail. Any person who is protesting the Blake shooting is part of the problem.
We had an armed violent criminal, with outstanding warrants, resisting arrest, and still they act like the cops were wrong.

I've asked, in this thread, how anyone would have handled the Blake incident differently, and nobody has an answer. 

The real question is what is the leftist end game, no police, just a lawless criminal utopia?
There was a golden opportunity after the Floyd shooting to discuss reform, but I don't hear about any constructive measures.
They've gotten so extreme that they've simply walked away from common ground with ordinary people.

What ordinary people want is fair and accountable law enforcement. But we do want our laws enforced.
It is becoming increasingly clear that the far left has a different vision.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

james4beach said:


> But in 1965, do you think Lyndon B Johnson voiced encouragement for both factions to assault and fight each other?


I might be wrong, but I think that Nixon called pro law and order the "Silent Majority".


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

80 percent of the hospitality sector within all major cities has collapsed into bankruptcy.

In New York City only 10 percent of office workers have returned to the towers because they are all working from home. The mayor may need to outlaw working from home because there is too much vacant office space now.

Millions and millions of minority workers (The Service Sector) are demanding to be "Rescued" just like Warren Buffett and Bill Gates were made financially whole with the recent bail-out.

Billy and Warren did not need to get down on their knees and beg to be bailed out. Billy and Warren threatened everybody with the "End of The World".

Trump is just stalling the spending so that Republicans can look good during the mid-term elections of 2022.

Trillions of dollars will need to flow into States and Cities and social programs and it will be the Democrats who will be blamed for rising deficits and taxes.

Trump mouthing-off is making the cost of such economic redistribution very costly as city councils budget for policing. It is pretty hard to reduce police budgets when there are riots taking place.

Trump has refused to bail out cities and states but is near bankrupting them with policing costs. As I recall the first responders at the World Trade Center wqrked a whole lot of overtime. The union contract allowed the cops and firemen to retire using the last year earnings as pension payments. City cops are going to rack up a ton of overtime and then retire as early as possible.

Biden is going to spend 5 Trillion dollars on day 1 to meet the minimum demands from Poor People.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> No evidence, except that pesky video.
> 
> The New York Times reviewed video and put together a timeline, not sure if they're now ALT-RIGHT, or not, but the evidence is there.


If such a video existed of people shooting at Rittenhouse, the right wing websites would be showing it already.

Instead they are claiming that the guy holding the skateboard had a dangerous weapon, and the other guy had his gun out and might have shot Rittehouse. (he didn't). At that point Rittenhouse had already killed someone, and had no claim of "self defense" available to him.

These protestors were chasing down a murderer who was still in possession of the murder weapon.

They could have legally killed Rittenhouse to stop him from possibly killing others.

The facts as they exist will determine Rittenhouse's fate, not the facts as you wish they were.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> If such a video existed of people shooting at Rittenhouse, the right wing websites would be showing it already.
> 
> Instead they are claiming that the guy holding the skateboard had a dangerous weapon, and the other guy had his gun out and might have shot Rittehouse. (he didn't). At that point Rittenhouse had already killed someone, and had no claim of "self defense" available to him.
> 
> ...


You have your narrative, and I honestly don't think any amount of evidence will convince you.

Just because he killed the first person who attacked him doesn't mean he magically loses the right to self defence for all subsequent attackers.

It's clear in the longer video, he's fleeing, he isn't a threat to any of those people, he isn't even looking at them.
They attacked him, it's again self defense.
There simply isn't any argument to be made that the pursuers were in fear for their life, until after they attacked him. At which point they did the right thing, and backed off.


As far as killing him to prevent future crimes, no, this isn't Minority report, and you're not allowed to pre-emptively execute people because they might commit a crime in the future.

The reality is that Kyle was fleeing a dangerous situation and was attacked by a mob, many of whom have criminal records for violent offenses. They were the instigators you're blaming for bringing violence.

It's really sad that the biggest villian the left can find is some teenage kid who was scrubbing graffitti by day, and fighting off violent criminals at night.


----------



## 5Lgreenback (Mar 21, 2015)

MrMatt said:


> You have your narrative, and I honestly don't think any amount of evidence will convince you.
> 
> Just because he killed the first person who attacked him doesn't mean he magically loses the right to self defence for all subsequent attackers.
> 
> ...



The mainstreams twisting of this incident is appalling and its plain for anyone to see who is willing to look beyond it. 

As much as I don't like Trump, I can only laugh at the irony when the media claims he is the reason for the division and violence in America. They really need to look in the mirror..


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> The reality is that Kyle was fleeing a dangerous situation and was attacked by a mob, many of whom have criminal records for violent offenses. They were the instigators you're blaming for bringing violence.


No, the reality is that Kyle suited up like a soldier, took an automatic weapon onto the street with the expectation of getting into a fight and with the expectation of shooting people.

I realize you're a military guy @MrMatt so maybe this isn't obvious to you. But to us civilians, suiting up like a soldier with guns & ammo to head into a city where you have no business, *is an act of hostility*. The moment Kyle set foot on that street, he was a threat to the public.

Just like the convoy of MAGA people driving into Portland. They also went there with the expectation of getting into fights and in fact, the man that was shot and killed can be seen with a gun holster on him. He also went into Portland looking for a fight. You can see in the photos he's suited up like a soldier as well.

Trump's gang has been doing this same thing for years now. These people are instigators and belligerents... they are not seeking peace, not doing volunteer work.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

A question for @MrMatt and @Prairie Guy , since they are showing surprising sympathy for what MAGA people are doing.

As a civilian, on a non-official basis, not under government command ... if YOU believed there was out-of-control crime in a city, would you dress up like a soldier, and take a weapon with you (any kind of weapon), and go on a "mission" into the city to solve that crime or get the bad guys?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> No, the reality is that Kyle suited up like a soldier, took an automatic weapon onto the street with the expectation of getting into a fight and with the expectation of shooting people.
> 
> I realize you're a military guy @MrMatt so maybe this isn't obvious to you. But to us civilians, suiting up like a soldier with guns & ammo to head into a city where you have no business, *is an act of hostility*. The moment Kyle set foot on that street, he was a threat to the public.
> 
> ...


Well
He didn't suit up like a soldier.
He didn't have an automatic weapon

Yeah, I agree, going to a violent area armed is a bit hostile, but burning down a city is hostile too.
As the saying goes "play stupid games, win stupid prizes"


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Well
> He didn't suit up like a soldier.
> He didn't have an automatic weapon


Being a smart guy again. Yes he effectively was suited up like a soldier, as was the guy shot in Portland. I know it's not up to your true military standards, but it's the same idea. They have camo gear, holsters, etc.

And Kyle had a military-style weapon. That thing _looks_ like the kind of weapon that ISIS terrorists walk around with when they're on the rampage.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> A question for @MrMatt and @Prairie Guy , since they are showing surprising sympathy for what MAGA people are doing.
> 
> As a civilian, on a non-official basis, not under government command ... if YOU believed there was out-of-control crime in a city, would you dress up like a soldier, and take a weapon with you (any kind of weapon), and go on a "mission" into the city to solve that crime or get the bad guys?


Question for you

If there were people destroying the city and attacking innocent civilians, yet the state and city government refused to charge anyone with crimes, would you support this, or would you call for law enforcement.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Being a smart guy again. Yes he effectively was suited up like a soldier, as was the guy shot in Portland. And Kyle had a military-style weapon. That thing looks like the same weapon that ISIS terrorists walk around with when they're on the rampage.


Style, as in black and scary, sure. 
Automatic, nope.
So are we considering the appearance of the weapon, or the actual functionality?


"like a soldier", well he wasn't in any sort of uniform.
Looks like he was wearing work boots, black pants, a T shirt and a backwards white baseball hat.
Not a particularly "military" look that I'm aware of.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Question for you
> 
> If there were people destroying the city and attacking innocent civilians, yet the state and city government refused to charge anyone with crimes, would you support this, or would you call for law enforcement.


I would leave the job to the people who are delegated that responsibility. The government. I absolutely would NOT try to "take the law into my own hands".

If I had the same feelings as you, I would also take into account the possibility that I am falling victim to propaganda that has a political agenda which is not showing me a true view of what's going on. Something that you are not considering. Protesters do have a right to protest, and just because they occasionally get out of hand does not mean the cities are being destroyed.

What will destroy the city, however, are gun fights in the street started by MAGA gangsters, which is now what we are starting to get. This is a far worse situation than having a few protests, which would have eventually run out of steam on their own.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

james4beach said:


> I would leave the job to the people who are delegated that responsibility.


But I thought the cry of the crowd was to defund those that are responsible? I understood that we now don't require police, and that the citizens can police themselves. We only require social workers.

ltr


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

like_to_retire said:


> But I thought the cry of the crowd was to defund those that are responsible? I understood that we now don't require police, and that the citizens can police themselves. We only require social workers.


The question was posed to me, and I gave you my answer. Leave it to the government.

I don't know what the crowd wants. I'm telling you my answer.

If you don't like what the government is doing, vote in a new one. This is pretty much democracy 101.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> The question was posed to me, and I gave you my answer. Leave it to the government.
> 
> I don't know what the crowd wants. I'm telling you my answer.
> 
> If you don't like what the government is doing, vote in a new one. This is pretty much democracy 101.


The state and city governments have abdicated their responsibility.
Police are arresting people, and the prosecutors are dropping charges.

They don't like what the government is doing, they're protesting, you have violent protesters for druggies and rapists like Floyd and Blake. Well now you have protesters for law and order. 
Sure they might get a bit out of hand.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> The state and city governments have abdicated their responsibility.


Funny, so your people (American right) think it's state's responsibilities on just about everything... except on crime, apparently.

This is the state and city's decisions to make. Nobody has abdicated their responsibility. The hypocrisy of the American right wing is unbelievable.

So nope. This isn't for Trump, or his goons to decide.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

James.........now you know how some put their pickup trucks to good use.

Drape them with American flags, load up the pickup bed with a cadre of quasi-wanna-be military types wearing Army surplus camo outfits, while clutching paintball guns and cruising the streets looking for someone to blast with patriotic colors of red, white and blue.

Just some good ole boys.....out protecting the city don't you know.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> James.........now you know how some put their pickup trucks to good use.
> 
> Drape them with American flags, load up the pickup bed with a cadre of quasi-wanna-be military types wearing Army surplus camo outfits, while clutching paintball guns and cruising the streets looking for someone to blast with patriotic colors of red, white and blue.
> 
> Just some good ole boys.....out protecting the city don't you know.


Thing is sags, they don't like the city. They *hate* the city. I know full well that they aren't trying to "protect" anything. They are going to the city to intimidate and hurt residents.

By the way, are you aware that black Americans have been buying guns in record numbers recently? This is exactly why. They know that the white rural folks are coming, armed, to rough them up.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Funny, so your people (American right) think it's state's responsibilities on just about everything... except on crime, apparently.
> 
> This is the state and city's decisions to make. Nobody has abdicated their responsibility. The hypocrisy of the American right wing is unbelievable.
> 
> So nope. This isn't for Trump, or his goons to decide.


Nope, the states responsibility is to fairly enforce the law. Handling crime is arguably their #1 job.
That's what they're not doing.

I guess they do have the choice to not enforce the law, which they're doing, with predictable results.

One thing they can't do is enforce the law unfairly, they can't say "oh you're protesting for cause A, that's ok, you're protesting for cause B, we have to charge you".

No they're going to the cities to counter-protest.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Good recap of the Portland situation in this newscast. Trump is using authoritarian (perhaps fascist) tricks, inciting conflict in Portland, to help with his election.

First, sending in his federal police once tensions were easing, to whip things up in to a frenzy again. This generates footage and a narrative that he uses for re-election, which non-critical thinkers like @MrMatt eat up.

Next, when tensions eased again, he encouraged militias (gangs) to go into Portland. These gangs came armed with weapons, and incite more violence. This creates more great footage and helps Trump's narrative.

As I said in my very first post, Trump is repeatedly attacking Portland.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Good recap of the Portland situation in this newscast. Trump is using authoritarian (perhaps fascist) tricks, inciting conflict in Portland, to help with his election.
> 
> First, sending in his federal police once tensions were easing, to whip things up in to a frenzy again. This generates footage and a narrative that he uses for re-election, which gullible people like @MrMatt eat up.
> 
> ...


Yawn, the Federal police were protecting federal property.
You haven't provided any evidence that he is encouraging militias to go into Portland to incite violence. You never do, because it isn't there.

Yup, the narrative that riots are bad, how dare he!


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Yawn, the Federal police were protecting federal property.


No, they weren't. They were there to incite violence and to provoke a response, because Trump is trolling the liberals. He wants them to respond, and they do -- it's going perfectly for Trump.

If the liberals in the city were smart, they would ignore all these provocateurs (the DHS police, and now the MAGA gangs) but Trump understands human behaviour and weaknesses.

Of course his real strength is that Trump understands human anger and rage. He's going to make a good dictator. By 'good' I mean that he knows how to play it well. My guess is that he refuses to accept the election, doesn't leave, and gets his MAGA gang to back him up -- as I predicted in the related Investment thread.

At that point the USA becomes a real dictatorship under fascist rule, and guys like you keep cheering, ignorant of how you are supporting the downfall of our western values.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> No, they weren't. They were there to incite violence and to provoke a response, because Trump is trolling the liberals. He wants them to respond, and they do -- it's going perfectly for Trump.
> 
> If the liberals in the city were smart, they would ignore all these provocateurs (the DHS police, and now the MAGA gangs) but Trump understands human behaviour and weaknesses.
> 
> ...


Yeah, you've been saying that for weeks, never provided evidence, but hey facts don't matter. 

If the Liberals were smart, they'd be Conservative, or at least stop burning down their own cities.

The thing is that the defund protestors are actually demanding a lawless society. The majority of the country knows that this is a BAD idea. How many deaths and how much damage have been caused by defund protests? You never said how many is too many. I don't think anyone should be dying in these protests, but as dozens die it's time for this nonsense to stop.

My guess is that the left doesn't accept the election, and the riots get even worse.

Sorry when people burn down a city to protest the lawful shooting of an armed violent rapist, there is something seriously wrong with society. You never talked about how you would have arrested Blake for his outstanding violent crime warrants.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> We even had people on this board talking about how insane / out of control the situation in Portland was. So I leaned out the window of my office and saw for myself... nope.


So are you in Portland or Canada?


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

These skirmishes which we are calling riots is going to double and perhaps triple in intensity over the next 18 months minimum.

I am thinking that "Normal" does not happen for at least another 18 months.
So, we got skirmishes happening for the next 18 months minimum.

The Ruling Class are working overtime to maintain control and knowing full well that it is going to become much more tense within all major cities.

At the moment these riots are infantile.

The Ruling Class are threading water and gathering "Intelligence".

We are all Suspects.
We are all subject to coercion and bribery.

We as a society know that all individuals using a computer or i-Phone are being surveilled and a record of all "Private" activity is being collected and stored by the Ruling Class. This information is much more valuable than DNA itself.

We all have said something "Electronically" which we wish had not happened. (An e-Mail to Mother, Your love life.) It is going to be very easy for the Ruling Class to get or find collaborators and agent provocateurs.

During these recent protests, the Ruling Class is not stopping or frisking.
They are taking pictures and film and using Photo Recognition which is more valuable than your fingerprint. I am quite sure that law enforcement is collecting all media film as well.

At the moment, while waiting for the implementation of martial law, the Ruling Class are collecting a total profile of all individual protesters and their contacts. (Violent and Non-Violent Protesters or Community Leaders.)

When the American military begins to patrol they will be given intelligence.
The military will see you appear on the street and know you just as though they were family.

If you are ever arrested and taken downtown for questioning, law enforcement will know more about you (and your friends) than your own mother.

The Buck Stops Here:

I figure that if the Ruling Class "Guided" 5 Trillion dollars towards Poor Folks, these confrontations would lessen considerably. 
It is not an accident that crime rates are high within "Poor" communities.

When Trump steps out and screams about law and order, he is really saying that he is not going to bail-out the Poor Folks.

Poor Folks agreed to bail-out the Rich Folks and today the Rich Folks are using the bail-out money to beat and bludgeon Poor Folks.

Poor People need 10 Trillion and The Ruling Class are offering a dollar - Ninety Eight.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Well
> He didn't suit up like a soldier.
> He didn't have an automatic weapon
> 
> ...


If a black guy wearing the same attire and carrying the same weapon were strutting down a leafy white suburban street, do you think police would be called? How do you think they would react?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Yawn, the Federal police were protecting federal property.
> You haven't provided any evidence that he is encouraging militias to go into Portland to incite violence. You never do, because it isn't there.
> 
> Yup, the narrative that riots are bad, how dare he!


Can you show us Trump vociferously condemning their vigilantism? Silence is complicity.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> Can you show us Trump vociferously condemning their vigilantism? Silence is complicity.


andrewf if only it were silence. Trump tweeted praise for them _after_ the gang went to assault Portland. He explicitly defended Kyle. So Trump is now explicitly encouraging MAGA vigilante and gangster attacks:

Source 1, Source 2, and Source 3



> A pro-Trump caravan of trucks drove into downtown Portland on Saturday to clash with Black Lives Matter protesters there, leaving one person, who was wearing the insignia of far-right group Patriot Prayer, dead.
> 
> *Trump cheered on a caravan of his supporters that rolled into Portland on Saturday as “GREAT PATRIOTS,*” even after video showed them driving into protesters, hurling tear gas and shooting them and a New York Times reporter with paintballs.


The leader of a nation calling his armed supporters who just carried out an organized assault on a city "great patriots" is the worrying part. He re-tweeted a video of the MAGA gang firing paintball and tear gas at residents of the city, which is also an endorsement of the organized assault.

Defending the MAGA shooter after his rampage is obviously worrying.

So Trump is not being silent. He's encouraging the MAGA gangs, praising them for what they've been doing, encouraging them to do more.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Can you show us Trump vociferously condemning their vigilantism? Silence is complicity.


I haven't seen anyone condemn Black Lives Matter. Silence is complicity.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Trump is encouraging the riots because he refuses to bail-out the State governments and major cities. He is going to leave that deficit spending to the newly elected president.

Money needs to be flooded into these communities just like money was flooded into the stock markets.

Trump is purposely creating the violence and the stress and then the U.S. Capitalists are rushing in with eviction notices when 60 percent have not paid rent since March.

By refusing to funnel money into the poor inner cities immediately, Trump hopes to benefit from the civil unrest.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> I haven't seen anyone condemn Black Lives Matter. Silence is complicity.


Actually, the Democrats have been openly encouraging riots. Only in the last couple days when the polls show that it doesn't help their chance in the election have a few of them made a token effort to finally speak up.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

calm said:


> Trump is encouraging the riots because he refuses to bail-out the State governments and major cities. He is going to leave that deficit spending to the newly elected president.


Why would the feds bail out cities that have openly refused to stop looting, rioting, and arson? They, not Trump have encouraged the riots by doing nothing and letting it happen non-stop for weeks on end. It's a local problem that should be solved with local funding.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I haven't seen anyone condemn Black Lives Matter. Silence is complicity.


You must have your ears closed. I have heard lots of condemnation for rioting.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Prairie Guy said:


> Actually, the Democrats have been openly encouraging riots.


Exactly.
Both political parties gain from this civil unrest.
The same people who finance Trump's campaign also finance the Biden campaign.
If the financiers who prop up the campaigns were not liking what they were seeing, they would quit financing the campaigns.
The 2 parties have a monopoly on power.
-----
It is not Democrat or Republican.

It is U.S. Capitalists .... who are hiding behind a political party apparatus which suits their lifestyles and social circles.

The U.S. Capitalist had no problem and no regrets bailing out Wall Street with multiple trillions, but today they are spitting in the eyes of the People on Poor Street.

Fear not ..... This is the "Argument" which is coming to a street near you.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Police Across Canada Are Using Predictive Policing Algorithms, Report Finds
Police across Canada are increasingly adopting algorithmic technology to predict crime. The authors of a new report say human rights are threatened by the practice.
By Nathan Munn
Septemeber 01, 2020








Police Across Canada Are Using Predictive Policing Algorithms, Report Finds


Police across Canada are increasingly adopting algorithmic technology to predict crime. The authors of a new report say human rights are threatened by the practice.




www.vice.com





Why Police Unions Are Not Part of the American Labour Movement
By Paul F. Clark 
August 25, 2020








Why police unions are not part of the American labor movement


George Floyd’s death has thrust police unions into the spotlight amid a growing recognition that they are not part of the U.S. labor movement but a narrow interest group pursuing their self-interests.




theconversation.com


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

calm said:


> Police Across Canada Are Using Predictive Policing Algorithms, Report Finds
> Police across Canada are increasingly adopting algorithmic technology to predict crime. The authors of a new report say human rights are threatened by the practice.


Yeah. I recently rejected a job along these lines. Some city police were hoping I could improve their data analytics. Yeah, no thanks.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

A short list of Democrat politician's and celebrities calling for violence:


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

In TV-Land they are saying that police departments of surrounding cities and counties of Portland are refusing to assist Portland. Claims that it is the fault of Portland politicians.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Why bother risking your life to arrest a violent offender if Portland lets them out of jail the very next day? VP Kamala proudly raised funds to bail out arsonists, looters, and violent offenders, many who went on to re-offend. 

The left let it go on far too long and has now lost control of the situation. No one believes them anymore when they blame Trump other than a few far left that will never be convinced.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The "left" was never situated "in charge" of the situation.

The protests are a reaction to the continuing police shooting and killing of black men, and the treatment of minorities by society in general.

They are the result of decades of politicians from all parties content to offer their "thoughts and prayers" and then walking away.

The problems can no longer be swept under the rug today with the promise they will be dealt with tomorrow. Tomorrow is here.

All politicians must embrace changes and enforce them where necessary, or the situation will continue to deteriorate.

Leadership begins at the top, and if Trump can't or won't lead, Americans will have to elect the Biden/Harris ticket.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

If a Democrat mayor, a Democrat chief of police, a Democrat DA, Democrat state reps, and Democrat unions are not in charge in those cities, then who is in charge?


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

sags said:


> The "left" was never situated "in charge" of the situation.
> .


The Left and the Right is just a figment of imagination.
Does anybody remember where the leaders of both the Democratic Party and Republican Party both agreed to join forces if need be when trying to destroy Bernie Sanders?

For every day the Ruling Class stall out and refuse to call the Senate back to provide money to Poor People, they are probably saving billions of dollars,

Congress is making it look like "Hard Work" to accomplish the transfer of trillions to the Lower Class. (It is just a keystroke on a computer.)

The stall is purposeful and the costs of stalling are not prohibitive at this moment in time.

Each month Congress stalls probably saves the printing of a trillion dollars.
And that is what this is all about.
The Senate will only return to act when the financial cost of stalling becomes too great.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

50 million Americans are food insecure and the politicians are talking Law and Order.
---------
Protest is worldwide ....

Yellow vests movement
From Wikipedia
The yellow vests movement or yellow jackets movement
Is a populist, grassroots protest movement for economic justice that began in France in October 2018. ....
The protesters have called for lower fuel taxes, a reintroduction of the solidarity tax on wealth, a minimum-wage increase, the implementation of Citizens' initiative referendums, among other things. 
On November 29, 2018, a list of 42 demands was made public....








Yellow vests protests - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Extinction Rebellion
From Wikipedia
Extinction Rebellion were established in the United Kingdom in May 2018 ....
Campaign group Rising Up!.
In November 2018, five bridges across the River Thames in London were blockaded....
In April 2019, Extinction Rebellion occupied five prominent sites in central London: 








Extinction Rebellion - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

A very interesting police method ......

Targeted
Pasco’s sheriff created a futuristic program to stop crime before it happens.
It monitors and harasses families across the county.
Pasco County Sheriff Chris Nocco took office in 2011 with a bold plan: to create a cutting-edge intelligence program that could stop crime before it happened.
By Kathleen McGrory and Neil Bedi
September 03, 2020




__





Pasco’s sheriff created a futuristic program to stop crime before it happens. It monitors and harasses families. | Investigations | Tampa Bay Times







projects.tampabay.com


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

If reformers hope to succeed in curbing overpolicing, they will first have to overcome the challenge of underpolicing, which has often allowed officers to exercise an effective veto on reform.

What Can Mayors Do When the Police Stop Doing Their Jobs?
In cities across the country, leaders face a phenomenon encountered in Baltimore and Chicago: officers slowing their work in the wake of high-profile episodes of police violence. Reporter Alec MacGillis asks: Will the result be different this time?
----
The protests flared into rioting and looting. Soon afterward, the city’s chief prosecutor announced criminal charges against the officers involved in the arrest. The officers’ colleagues responded by pulling back on the job, doing only the bare minimum in the following weeks. In the resulting void, crews seized new drug corners and settled old scores. Homicides surged to record levels and case-closure rates plunged. “The police stopped doing their jobs, and let people **** up other people,” Carl Stokes, a former Democratic city councilor in Baltimore, told me last year. “Period. End of story.”
By Alec MacGillis
September 03, 2020








What Can Mayors Do When the Police Stop Doing Their Jobs?


In cities across the country, leaders face a phenomenon encountered in Baltimore and Chicago: officers slowing their work in the wake of high-profile episodes of police violence. Reporter Alec MacGillis asks: Will the result be different this time?




www.propublica.org


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> You must have your ears closed. I have heard lots of condemnation for rioting.


I haven't heard a single leftist politician, or more than a handful of corporations condemn BLM.

I've heard more people condemn All Lives Matter, than Black Lives Matter, and that's a problem.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> andrewf if only it were silence. Trump tweeted praise for them _after_ the gang went to assault Portland. He explicitly defended Kyle. So Trump is now explicitly encouraging MAGA vigilante and gangster attacks:
> 
> Source 1, Source 2, and Source 3
> 
> ...


He should defend Rittenhouse, he was acting in self defense.

Of course he endorses MAGA, that's Trumps slogan.

Once the MAGA caravan was assaulted with weapons, which you can see being thrown in the video you linked to, I think their choice of paintballs wasn't unreasonable.
I think we should be all glad they didn't feel it was necessary to respond with a gun.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> He should defend Rittenhouse, he was acting in self defense.
> 
> Of course he endorses MAGA, that's Trumps slogan.


Rittenhouse went armed into the streets, wielding a gun. Other people were defending themselves from him (the attacker). As they should! When you see a terrorist coming down the street with a huge gun, dressed in camo gear, you must fear for your life.

Rittenhouse threatened and attacked the public. The public took various steps to defend themselves from this danger, violent attacker.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Once the MAGA caravan was assaulted with weapons, which you can see being thrown in the video you linked to, I think their choice of paintballs wasn't unreasonable.


I don't know why you keep defending these goons. The MAGA caravan was in the process of attacking the city... they rolled into town with weapons, to intimidate and rough up the city.

Just like Rittenhouse, they were armed and violent attackers, invaders. Extremist nuts.

Everyone who encounters Rittenhouse or the MAGA caravan has very good reason to be scared, as they are under assault by violent attackers. But in MrMatt's world, someone who is under attack should just roll over and accept it ... I guess?


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I haven't heard a single leftist politician, or more than a handful of corporations condemn BLM.
> 
> I've heard more people condemn All Lives Matter, than Black Lives Matter, and that's a problem.


BLM != rioting

Many 'leftist' politicians have condemned rioting and violence. Why do you think they should condemn BLM as a whole (frankly nuts). Has Trump even condemned 'BLM' per se? Maybe you should holla at your boy on that topic.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> Many 'leftist' politicians have condemned rioting and violence. Why do you think they should condemn BLM as a whole (frankly nuts). Has Trump even condemned 'BLM' per se? Maybe you should holla at your boy on that topic.


MrMatt sounds to me like a closet MAGA guy. He pretends that he sees the flaws in Trump, perhaps for the sake of fitting in on the board and not identifying himself as a total nut. But he always turns around and repeats the far-right propaganda. He has this 180 view on reality that's at the core of the cult, too. You know, "up is down". The armed man who's menacing the crowd is the hero and victim, that kind of nonsense.

The armed vigilantes with weapons rolling into town, to intimidate and assault the residents, are the heros and victims too.

If he isn't already on board with MAGA, he's certainly watching enough Fox News (or wacky internet sites) to get to that point.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> BLM != rioting
> 
> Many 'leftist' politicians have condemned rioting and violence. Why do you think they should condemn BLM as a whole (frankly nuts). Has Trump even condemned 'BLM' per se? Maybe you should holla at your boy on that topic.


BLM != rioting I know that.
That's why when I asked if you'd condemn BLM, and you condemned rioting I asked a second time.

Quite honestly this is going nowhere, you're okay with a bunch of racial antagonists, and socialists and that's the problem. 

The think with MAGA is that they're a bit nuts, but they're not the racists calling for defunding of the police. 
Sure they shouldn't roll into town in an armed convoy, but the pro-Blake rioters shouldn't either.
I don't think they should inflame tensions, but letting the pro-criminal protests/riots continue without opposition isn't good.

As far as being armed, the pro-criminal rioters have guns, the police aren't stopping them, it would be even more foolish NOT to be armed.

The really crazy thing is that, as much as it isn't good that Blake got shot, the police in that case were pretty much perfect.
They used every means at their disposal, only resorting to lethal force when he posed a threat. 
My question for the pro-Blake people, what kind of world do you want to live in? One where violent criminals and rapists are free to terrorize families, and the police aren't allowed to intervene? Because that's what it looks like.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

In the 30's Most Germans were peaceful but only a few made all of them Nazis, same with the Russians .
At 9/11 there were 300 000 peaceful Muslims living in the US but it only took a few of them to kill 3000 people. 
If 'true' the 'peaceful majority' is a fallacy thus irrelevant
--El Zorab, September 04, 2020--

Political Violence Demonstrations & Strategic Developments in the U.S. In the US
(May 24 - August 22, 2020)

A report produced by the Armed Conflict Location and Event Data Project (ACLED) found that of the 7,750 protests linked to the Black Lives Matter movement that took place in the US between May 26 through August 22, only 220 were not peaceful. The report further states that for those considered "violent," the upheaval was “largely confined to specific blocks, rather than dispersed throughout the city."

Demonstrations & Political Violence In America:
New Data For Summer 2020
ACLED data show that while more than 90% of demonstrations since GeorgeFloyd's killing are peaceful, they're increasingly met with violence by government forces, non-state groups, and counter-demonstrators across the US.
----
More than 93% of BLM demonstrations have been peaceful, yet 42% of population believe that protestors are trying to incite violence or destroy property.
"Research indicates that this disparity stems from political orientation and biased media framing"
--Melissa Gira Grant--
----
Right-wing groups have organized about 360 demonstrations in opposition to Black Lives Matter, often under the banner of “Blue Lives Matter.” Some demonstrations were also organized in support of President Donald Trump or Confederate statues. 
----
This adds to recent findings from the Centre for Analysis of the Radical Right, which identified nearly 500 incidents of vigilantes or far-right activists confronting Black Lives Matter demonstrators since May.
Those incidents include 64 cases of simple assault, 38 cases of vigilantes driving cars into demonstrators, and nine times that shots were fired at protesters.
----
At least six left-wing protesters have been shot during the demonstrations, three of whom died.
----
Political Violence Demonstrations & Strategic Developments in the U.S.
(May 24 - August 22, 2020)
The Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project (ACLED)
September 04, 2020








Demonstrations and Political Violence in America: New Data for Summer 2020


Preliminary analysis of key trends from May to August.




acleddata.com




(PDF Document)


https://acleddata.com/acleddatanew/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/ACLED_USDataReview_Sum2020_SeptWebPDF.pdf


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Not suprised


*'You're Not Allowed To Film': The Fight To Control Who Reports From Portland









'You're Not Allowed To Film': The Fight To Control Who Reports From Portland


Both sides are getting their information through purposely bottlenecked media reports, and the results are predictably distorted and dangerous.




reason.com




*


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> ----
> At least six left-wing protesters have been shot during the demonstrations, three of whom died.
> ----


Half the shootings were simply Rittenhouse acting in self defence? That seems hardly an indictment of "right wing violence"
The protestors have killed dozens.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Eder said:


> Not suprised
> 'You're Not Allowed To Film': The Fight To Control Who Reports From Portland



Because police are grabbing all the film and using facial recognition.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Sure they shouldn't roll into town in an armed convoy, but the pro-Blake rioters shouldn't either.


I completely agree that NO group should be doing this kind of thing


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> Because police are grabbing all the film and using facial recognition.


I'm not as concerned about the police arresting people for crimes, than then one sided reporting on the "peaceful" riots.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> At least six left-wing protesters have been shot during the demonstrations, three of whom died.
> ----


*An 8-year-old girl killed in a drive-by shooting was one of 53 people shot in Chicago over holiday weekend*









An 8-year-old girl killed in a drive-by shooting was one of 53 people shot in Chicago over holiday weekend


An 8-year-old girl was among 53 people shot during a violent holiday weekend in Chicago, according to police officials.




www.cnn.com






I saw that headline and it's really sad.
All these people are fired up about police violence and "right wing" violence against the rioters.

It looks like it's safer to be a left wing rioter, dealing with "right wing extremists", than to simply live in Chicago.
Over a whole summer of rioting, Chicago has almost 10x the shootings in a single weekend.

That really nuts, it shows the lack of perspective on these issues. 
If these groups really cared about the people, they'd be working on the actual problems in the communities. Stop standing up for dirtbags like Jacob Blake, and instead work on protecting the families from those dangerous criminals.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

The left is more upset about an attempted murderer who was killed in self defense than a 5-year old child that was executed in broad daylight.

Only some lives matter.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

A list of the people murdered by looters and rioters in anti-police "protests":

1. Javar Harrell
2. Dave Patrick Underwood
3. Chris Beaty
4. Dorian Murrell
5. Italia Kelly
6. Marquis M. Tousant
7. Marvin Francois
8. John Tiggs
9. Jose Gutierrez
10. Victor Cazares Jr.
11. David Dorn
12. Horace Lorenzo Anderson
13. Tyler Gerth
14. Antonio Mays Jr.
15. Secoriea Turner
16. Jessica Doty Whitaker
17. Aaron Danielson


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

andrewf said:


> ........ Why do you think they should condemn BLM as a whole (frankly nuts)........


BLM rioters smashing up restaurants, chasing off scared guests in Rochester, NY







ltr


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Trudeau government will be announcing policies to address inequality and racism in Canada to avoid such reactions of frustration to systemic problems.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The Trudeau government will be announcing policies to address inequality and racism in Canada to avoid such reactions of frustration to systemic problems.


No he won't.

He's going to engage in a bunch of race baiting and big spending promises to fix a problem he doesn't understand.


I'm betting that his "plan" will literally be systematic racism. By that I mean he will create a policy that discriminates on people by their race and ethnic origin. 

I wouldn't be surprised if he lauds race base quotas, like those being introduced at many large corporations.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Trudeau is going to call an election so that he has majority rule.
He knows full well that he soon will need to bring the military onto major city streets.
Everybody is hiding behind "Racism" when in fact the protests are really about "Inequality".


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Not everyone hides behind racism, only the left does. They can't win a debate with facts so they scream racism as a distraction. Why do you keep falling for it?

There has always been inequality, what the left really wants is equal outcome, not equal opportunity. They think that a loser living in their parent's basement deserves the same lifestyle as someone who works 12 hours a day. That's not equality...it's pure greed and laziness.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> Trudeau is going to call an election so that he has majority rule.
> He knows full well that he soon will need to bring the military onto major city streets.
> Everybody is hiding behind "Racism" when in fact the protests are really about "Inequality".


Some people do more stuff of value, and get bigger rewards for it.
The surgeon who fixes my heart should get paid more than the guy making coffee at Timmies.

Until you make those two types of work, there will be and SHOULD BE inequity.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Leadership Bio:

Alicia Garza
Co-founding the international Black Lives Matter movement
Alicia Garza is an American civil rights activist and writer
From Wikipedia








Alicia Garza - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Alayh Eastmond
Team Enough


https://twitter.com/aalayaheastmond










Executive Council — Team ENOUGH


Team ENOUGH’s youth-led Executive Council has proven skills in organizing, policy-making, and advocacy. These young leaders oversee the goals and values of Team ENOUGH. Learn more now!




www.teamenough.org




----


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

It seems to me that these BLM issues began with the same "Intensity" as the Christie Pits Riot .....

The Protesters around America are chasing down anybody who even smells of wealth.
Unlike Gemany in 1933, the Protesters of today don't care what religion the Rich Folks attend.
----

Christie Pits Riot
In this inaugural episode we discuss the legacy of The Christie Pits Riot of August 1933. As the largest riot in Toronto’s history, this event stands as a watershed moment in Canadian-Jewish history, and should be regarded as a great act of anti-fascist resistance. Today, echoes of this history can be seen in rising tides of fascist violence, the bizarre relationship between Canadian police and Nazism, and the courageous efforts of protesters in the Black Lives Matter Movement.
We learned a great deal from reading Cyril Levitt and William Shaffir’s book The Riot at Christie Pits, and we recommend you do the same.
----
The Christie Pits riot occurred on 16 August 1933 at the Christie Pits (Willowvale Park) playground in Toronto, Ontario. The riot can be understood in the context of the Great Depression, anti-semitism, "Swastika Clubs" and parades and resentment of "foreigners" in Toronto, and the rise of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis in Germany in 1933.
The riot, which lasted six hours, broke out after a quarter-final baseball game at Christie Pits between two local clubs: Harbord Playground, consisting predominantly of Jewish and Italian players, and St. Peter's, a baseball team sponsored by St. Peter's Church, a Catholic church at Bathurst and Bloor.
The night of the riot was the second game between Harbord and St. Peter's. Two nights earlier, at the first game of the series, a swastika had been displayed. Police were warned in writing that there could be trouble at the second game, but those warnings were ignored.
After the final out of the second game, Pit Gang members displayed a blanket with a large swastika painted on it. A number of Jewish boys and young men who had heard about the previous Swastika incident rushed the Swastika sign to destroy it, supporters of both sides (including Italians who supported the Jews) from the surrounding area joined in, and a fight started.
The Toronto Daily Star described the event the next day:
"While groups of Jewish and Gentile youths wielded fists and clubs in a series of violent scraps for possession of a white flag bearing a swastika symbol at Willowvale Park last night, a crowd of more than 10,000 citizens, excited by cries of 'Heil Hitler' became suddenly a disorderly mob and surged wildly about the park and surrounding streets, trying to gain a view of the actual combatants, which soon developed in violence and intensity of racial feeling into one of the worst free-for-alls ever seen in the city. Scores were injured, many requiring medical and hospital attention ... Heads were opened, eyes blackened and bodies thumped and battered as literally dozens of persons, young or old, many of them non-combatant spectators, were injured more or less seriously by a variety of ugly weapons in the hands of wild-eyed and irresponsible young hoodlums, both Jewish and Gentile."
No one was killed in the riot. There was criticism of the police for not being ready to intervene, as they had been during previous potential problems in the Beach area.
After the riot, Mayor Stewart warned against displaying the swastika and there were no further riots.
The riot revealed the xenophobic attitudes toward Jews and other non-Anglo immigrants (such as Italian immigrants) among some Anglo Canadians. Jews represented the largest minority in Toronto in 1933 and were thus a target of xenophobic residents. The event had some parallels to the 1875 Jubilee riots, an outbreak of Protestant–Catholic sectarian violence in Toronto and Anti-Greek Riots which previously occurred in the city in 1918.
Socialist Project - The Scarlet Standard
Host
August 12, 2020
(Flash Audio)

__
https://soundcloud.com/user-993506728-729436721%2Fepisode-1-the-christie-pite


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

calm said:


> Leadership Bio:
> 
> Alicia Garza
> Co-founding the international Black Lives Matter movement
> ...


She describes herself as a trained Marxist, works for the US communist party and has called for a direct overthrow of the US government.

Wikipedia left that stuff out.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Trudeau's victory interrupted Harper's steady march to turning Canada into the US and creating Portlands all over Canada.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Trudeau's victory interrupted Harper's steady march to turning Canada into the US and creating Portlands all over Canada.


Portland is only happening because the US Federal government is respecting the authority of the State government.

The Portland riots are about overthrowing the US government. They're not about actual policy positions.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> Portland is only happening because the US Federal government is respecting the authority of the State government.
> 
> The Portland riots are about overthrowing the US government. They're not about actual policy positions.


I'm pretty sure they Democrats were hoping Trump would step in so they could have another Kent State or at least accuse him of overreaching his authority. He didn't fall for it and now they're stuck with a lot of upset citizens and some huge bills to clean up the mess.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> I'm pretty sure they Democrats were hoping Trump would step in so they could have another Kent State or at least accuse him of overreaching his authority. He didn't fall for it and now they're stuck with a lot of upset citizens and some huge bills to clean up the mess.


Funny thing, it's almost like they put some thought into the US Constitution.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

I don't think that the BLM person is asking to rob people blindly.

I think she might be protesting for a larger percentage of the budget being directed towards the Poor Folks in the large cities.

I am sure that this BLM person is well educated and researched and she would recognize that this is not a perfect world. 

She is not asking for anything "Extreme".

Just look at the huge crowds displaying Black Lives Matter,

Black Lives Matter as a brand name is huge.

The Federal Government has to make a choice of investing into American cities or the unrest will grow.

The anger on the streets will double each month.

Police control might be able to get to Christmas Time if the Federal Reserve fails to act.

But come the spring time, all hell would break loose.

I think that at least 10 trillion dollars will be needed to maintain control of large North American cities.

I think that if push comes to shove the protesters win.

It is very important that the protest movements are fighting amongst themselves which results in the population being thankful that the military arrives to neutralize both sides.

The Ruling Class are going to starve the large cities of cash and add another line for people at a food bank. The more desperate the Poor Folks become the more violence they will express.

The Ruling Class know full well that if this unrest between the Left and The Right continues at this pace or intensity, the military will be walking the streets by the new year.

And ..... the military will be "Invited" in to the city by the protesters themselves.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> I don't think that the BLM person is asking to rob people blindly.
> 
> She is not asking for anything "Extreme".


1. The founders claim to be "trained Marxists". So they're asking to rob people in full view, not blindly.
2. They are calling for the destruction of the western nuclear family, that's pretty extreme. 
I actually understand that, strong families built a strong society, and that's incompatible with their dystopian vision for the future.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

calm said:


> Just look at the huge crowds displaying Black Lives Matter,
> 
> Black Lives Matter as a brand name is huge.


Yes, they're huge. In fact, BLM has raised 10's of millions, probably hundreds of millions. And all they've done is riot, commit violence, and demand the police be defunded. They haven't sent even one black kid to college or bought a single black mother a home.

So tell us...what are they doing with their hundreds of millions of dollars to help black people? Are they willing to open the books?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> Yes, they're huge. In fact, BLM has raised 10's of millions, probably hundreds of millions. And all they've done is riot, commit violence, and demand the police be defunded. They haven't sent even one black kid to college or bought a single black mother a home.
> 
> So tell us...what are they doing with their hundreds of millions of dollars to help black people? Are they willing to open the books?


Naw, they're too busy destroying things and killing people. 
If they try really really hard, they're hoping to say that things got worse "under Trump".


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> No he won't.
> 
> He's going to engage in a bunch of race baiting and big spending promises to fix a problem he doesn't understand.
> 
> ...


Yup, systematic racism, courtesy of Trudeau.

Trudeau announces cash for loans, support to Black Canadian entrepreneurs


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Prairie Guy said:


> Yes, they're huge. In fact, BLM has raised 10's of millions, probably hundreds of millions.


And the Ruling Class militarized the police departments. (and what did that accomplish?)

I think that BLM have accomplished a lot. The protests have worldwide attention, 

They are forcing the U.S. Capitalists to grow a conscience and agree to channel 10 Trillion Dollars into large cities immediately.

The U.S. Capitalists are angered about property damage and looting.

How about that person with a wife and child at home having to line up at a Food Bank? 

And there are 50 million Poor Folks using food banks "Minimum".

That is gonna take lots of tear gas.

And all this pain is about 10 Trillion dollars and a Klick on a computer screen, or in exactly the same way the Markets were Bailed out.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> And the Ruling Class militarized the police departments. (and what did that accomplish?)
> 
> I think that BLM have accomplished a lot. The protests have worldwide attention,
> 
> ...


When the protestors and leftist destroy the businesses and chase out investment, things will only get worse.

The same people calling for investment, and integration, are the ones chasing out businesses, and opposing "gentrification"


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

10 Trillion is what it is gonna cost ......


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

And so far no one can name a single black person helped by BLM in spite of their massive bankroll. Not one.

Perhaps they're just paid terrorists?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> And so far no one can name a single black person helped by BLM in spite of their massive bankroll. Not one.
> 
> Perhaps they're just paid terrorists?


Well, they're stopping gentrification (ie investment) in their neighbourhoods. soo... wait that's a bad thing.
Well some police departments are being defunded/disbanded, so that leaves less resources to send police to get guys like Blake off the street... oh wait, he was a violent rapist....

Uhh Colin Kaepernik got a big payout!
See if it helps just one person...


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Yeah we get it @Prairie Guy and @MrMatt . If you're an authoritarian white guy, protesting for the rights of [poor] black people seems pretty stupid.

But it only seems that way to you because you are authoritarian white guys. The rest of society understands pretty clearly why it makes sense for downtrodden people to protest against an abusive government which actively harms them.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Yeah we get it @Prairie Guy and @MrMatt . If you're an authoritarian white guy, protesting for the rights of [poor] black people seems pretty stupid.
> 
> But it only seems that way to you because you are authoritarian white guys. The rest of society understands pretty clearly why it makes sense for downtrodden people to protest against an abusive government which actively harms them.


I think abusive government which is actively harming people is bad.
I just think it's dumb to burn down your city and kill people.
I think it's bad to rape and assault people, I want those people locked up in jail. Apparently millions of people disagree.

You seem to be in this divisive, "us vs them" thing.

You can be for police and government accountability, and be against rioting, and be against racism all at the same time. I am

What I don't understand is people like James, who are for rioting, for racism, and against government accountability. Nobody understands why you hate people so much.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Yeah we get it @Prairie Guy and @MrMatt . If you're an authoritarian white guy, protesting for the rights of [poor] black people seems pretty stupid.


They're literally doing the exact opposite of that.
When they hold Jacob Blake as an example of a fine family man and a good guy, it's a spit in face to the victims of his crimes.
I care about those poor black people, who are victims of criminals like Jacob Blake, victims who get no support, and no help, and nobody cares about them. While a celebrity criminal like Jacob Blake gets millions.

What about the victims rights to justice? To be free from violence and rape from Jacob Blake and those like him?
When you protest the Kenosha police, you're saying those victims don't matter, and you don't care about them.

Too many people idolize this destructive thug culture. 
Rape culture is calling to defund the police when they try to take a rapist off the streets.

If you stand with these defund protestors, YOU are part of the problem.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

A convicted violent sex offender receives more sympathy from james than a 5-year old child who was executed in broad daylight.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

These protesters are the Service Economy.
They got the Upper Class by the curlies.

These Protesters made sure everybody got to work everyday and had a place to eat lunch and perhaps pick up your dry cleaning and direct you to the social night clubs.

It is these protesters who actually rule the roost of the Service Economy.

They could shut down any place at any time, and maybe even burn it to the ground.

The Ruling Class can maybe spend 50 million in tear gas shells and ready the sonic weapons knowing that each month of delay has all the politicians looking "Strong and Resolute".

Congress can claim that they are "Working Hard" trying to find the money and all it really is a blurp on a computer screen just like they did with the banks in 2007-08 and the rescue of the Money Markets just 6 months ago.

The same people who were just rescued 6 months ago are agreeing to buy more tear gas rather then visit the Federal Reserve.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

calm said:


> The Ruling Class can maybe spend 50 million in tear gas shells and ready the sonic weapons knowing that each month of delay has all the politicians looking "Strong and Resolute".
> . . .
> The same people who were just rescued 6 months ago are agreeing to buy more tear gas rather then visit the Federal Reserve.


It might just be a matter of time before protesters go after the companies producing the munitions. I don't imagine people are too thrilled with the companies which manufacture gas that's used to attack and suppress citizens.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

QAnon Key Figure Revealed as Financial Information Security Analyst from New Jersey

A Logically investigation identifies a key QAnon figure as New Jersey resident Jason Gelinas. The investigation ties QAnon properties to a company owned by Gelinas, an information technology specialist who has held prominent positions at both Credit Suisse and Citigroup.
September 10, 2020








QAnon Key Figure Revealed as Financial Information Security Analyst from New Jersey


A Logically investigation identifies a key QAnon figure as an information technology specialist from New Jersey who has held prominent positions at both Credit Suisse and Citigroup.




www.logically.ai


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

"American oligarchs celebrate their wealth:

America’s 400 richest are worth a record $3.2 trillion, up $240 billion from a year ago, aided by a stock market that has defied the virus.

The multi-trillion-dollar CARES Act passed in March, was the equivalent of 15 percent of the country’s gross domestic product.
-----
It would take the median American, who earns $33,000 per year, 97 million years to earn as much as is controlled by the wealthiest Americans. 
----
Consider what $3.2 trillion could pay for in a year:
Added up, the wealth of just 400 people could pay for an entire year of public education, health care, nutrition and disaster relief for millions of Americans." 
----
The Protesters want to be bailed out too. 

A Debt Jubilee.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm,
You're confusing wealth with income.

The problem is that if Elon Musk wasn't a multi billionaire, there'd be no Tesla or SpaceX.
If Jeff Bezos wasn't a billionaire, there would be no Amazon.
Brin & Page -> Google
Jobs -> Pixar & Apple.

Quite simply, without their vision, and their ability to say "no I'm doing it my way", that wealth they have would have simply never been created or grown to that level.
They actually CREATED value, lots of it, and they will pay massive income taxes on it (when they sell).

The world is better off when people own the fruits of their labour.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> calm,
> You're confusing wealth with income.


I just listed the Forbes 400 wealth numbers.
The income was to give an example of just how much 3.2 trillion dollars really is. .
-------------
The Forbes 400 were bankrupt when the virus arrived in North America.

The Service Sector employees (and the grandkids agreed to bail the Forbes 400 out and to borrow 3.3 Trillion with promises of "Infinity".

These Forbes 400 gotta step up now and bail the Service Sector out.

What does one Trillion dollars look like?





What does one TRILLION dollars look like?


Award winning HTML and Javascript tutorials. You'll find easy to learn material on HTML, tables, forms, frames, javascript, style sheets and a whole lot more.



www.pagetutor.com


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> I just listed the Forbes 400 wealth numbers.
> The income was to give an example of just how much 3.2 trillion dollars really is. .
> -------------
> The Forbes 400 were bankrupt when the virus arrived in North America.
> ...


Your response actually reinforces my point.

You're confusing wealth and income.
So what, you steal all the work that the 400 richest have built over their lifetimes, spend it, then what about next year? 
The 400 richest are gone.
The 100k richest? 200k richest? seize every penny and spend it.
The next year? The million richest?
If you keep taking everyones money every year, you'll run out pretty darn quickly.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I spoke with a friend in Portland on the phone. We had a lengthy conversation, catching up on work and life.

I asked him for his first hand account of the "situation" in Portland with the protests. This guy lives and works very close to all of it, so he's been seeing it. Here's what he said:

The media coverage is a joke, completely skews and misrepresents what has been happening in Portland. Yes there were large demonstrations, initially with lots of people. These were typical protests and reasonable demonstrations. However the media has been overly dramatic, focusing on any footage of something dramatic and chaotic, and putting that on the airwaves. It is not representative of what's really been happening on the streets. Typically, the protests have been normal and peaceful.

So the media has been falsely reporting about crime and violence, when in reality very little of that exists. They paint a picture that makes it look like the city is being destroyed, when it really isn't. *Mostly, all is well in Portland.*

The initial large number of demonstrators have just about disappeared. The people who remain on the street are anarchists and troublemakers. Everyone else has left. So these kids (the anarchists) are picking fights with police and generally being a nuisance. They aren't black, they aren't BLM, and they are not protesting for any cause.

~ ~ ~ ~

That's what the eye witness says. It very much agrees with what I experienced in past protest periods myself (back in 2018, 2019). Basically, not much happens on the streets, but the media plays it up and scares the living daylights out of @MrMatt and other conservatives with their fictional stories about "antifa" and violent BLM. Total fabrication. The Republicans and conservatives in general want to believe that liberal cities are a disaster, and media feeds that perception with their false reporting.

Here in the real world, the protests are large, but mostly peaceful. There is a very small amount of violence and destruction, which isn't a big deal at all. The city continues to function normally and there is nothing like the disaster that Republicans want you to believe. It's a false narrative.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Your response actually reinforces my point.
> 
> So what, you steal all the work that the 400 richest have built over their lifetimes, spend it, then what about next year?


.
The money that they had worked for over a life time had disappeared the day that the virus arrived in North America.

All those Forbe's 400 Guys were bankrupt and the Poor Folks (and grandkids) agreed to borrow unlimited trillions to make them whole again.

The Poor Folks are not asking for any money that the Forbes 400 have in their pockets. They are asking to be bailed out just like the Forbe's 400 were bailed out.

And if the Forbe's 400 don't agree to bail the Poor Folks out, then the Poor Folks have every legal right to just go and take it from them because it is taxpayer money they got as a bail-out.

It was the Poor Folks who agreed to pay more taxes for the next zillion years so that the Forbes 400 could be bailed out.

Now, it is time to bail out the Poor Folks in the same way that the Forbes 400 got bailed out.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

james4beach said:


> I spoke with a friend in Portland on the phone. We had a lengthy conversation,


The Ruling Class are building the case for Martial Law.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

calm said:


> The Ruling Class are building the case for Martial Law.


That sounds plausible. My friend commented how, even when he tells people what he sees with his own eyes, those people still ignore him and believe the media's narrative.

I experienced the same thing at CMF. Over the last couple of years, I wrote first hand accounts of what happens in Portland. People mostly ignored me and chose to believe the media's version of reality. The media is a powerful force.

In one funny exchange I remember, @MrMatt or @Eder posted something about Portland's downtown being a disaster war zone. Republicans have been painting this false narrative for a long time.

I was living there at the time. I stepped out of my downtown office, walked around (saw nothing) and came back and wrote at CMF that it totally is not a disaster war zone. In fact there was nothing happening that I could see at all. And @MrMatt or @Eder insisted again that the city is a war zone.

Who are you going to believe: MrMatt (based on what he's seeing from Fox News), or me (who reports directly what he sees)?

Another example is Sweden. The right wing media machinery is always reporting of supposed disasters in Sweden, chaos and destruction, riots. It's a whole lot of bullshit. I've asked friends in Sweden and learned that it's totally fictional... it's not real.

Beware of this stark difference between perception and reality, and beware of the false narratives that appear in the media.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

I keep suggesting that there is no way that America can survive this virus without enduring a huge economic depression. (30% unemployment.)

The downtown core of every large city has been economically decimated. Office towers are no longer prime real estate with the work at home model. Restaurants and bars and wedding halls situated in the inner city core are bankrupt because pedestrian traffic disappearing and virus precautions.

There is no way that The Ruling Class will agree to bail-out the Lower Class for the next 18 months "Minimum". (Probably 24 months at least.)

I think it would cost a trillion dollars per month just to pay 50 million unemployment benefits and to finance large city and State social services.

They can bail-out the unemployed or put soldiers on the streets.

I think they have chosen the military route.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

james4beach said:


> *Mostly, all is well in Portland.*


Mostly, all was well in air travel Sep 11, 2001 too. 99.99% of flights arrived safely with 0 fatalities.

Mostly, all the buildings did not burn down in the Minneapolis riots either. After all ,1500 buildings is just a fraction of the hundreds of thousands of homes and residences.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> So the media has been falsely reporting about crime and violence, when in reality very little of that exists. They paint a picture that makes it look like the city is being destroyed, when it really isn't. *Mostly, all is well in Portland.*


There are hundreds of millions of police civilian interactions, the vast majority are just fine.
In fact there are so few actual negative interactions, they're holding up Jacob Blake as something to protest.

Police interactions are mostly fine, it's just being spun by race baiters.
Thomas Sowell actually comments on why they do this in his 2016 book on wealth and poverty, it's eerily insightful.

The problem is the bad response to bad behaviour.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Can we not just agree that there is huge dissatisfaction in America and the protests indicate that millions of people are challenging government authority?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> Can we not just agree that there is huge dissatisfaction in America and the protests indicate that millions of people are challenging government authority?


I think we agree on that.

I just think that
1. Some of the things they are demanding are bad.
2. Some of them are misbehaving.

If they weren't asking for stupid things I'd have no problem with their demands, I even support the more reasonable proposals, ie better oversight, improved training etc.
If they weren't criminals torching buildings, and threatening people, I'd have no concerns there either.

Also the officer in the Floyd death should be investigated or charged, but first degree murder is overreach
The officers in the Blake death should be commended for their excellent behaviour. If they're charged, it's a travesty.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

calm said:


> Can we not just agree that there is huge dissatisfaction in America and the protests indicate that millions of people are challenging government authority?


Completely agree. The sudden surge in joblessness added a huge extra stress on existing dissatisfaction.

At its core, I don't think this is about race. If poor whites weren't brainwashed by the Republicans, I think they would actually be shoulder to shoulder marching and protesting with everyone else because they actually have the same gripes: they are poor, have no future, and don't get the social services they need.

I think that both Democrats and Republicans fuel this divide (left vs right, race issues) as a way to prevent Americans from organizing. A combined, coherent movement of all poor people (all races) would be enough to be a serious political force. They would start taking back what's theirs and dramatically raise taxes on the wealthy, which is obviously what (D) and (R) are trying to prevent at all costs.

The (D) and (R) parties are not very far apart in reality. Both represent rich elites and are very pro capitalist.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

The Ruling Class have played this game of Musical Chairs for a lifetime. 

In a Capitalist System everybody is told or convinced into voting against their own interests.

Propaganda:

Trump’s law-and-order campaign relies on a historic American tradition of racist and anti-immigrant politics
--
Republican Gov. Calvin Coolidge
While it did not have much political purchase during the early part of the century, the phrase “law and order” was used by Republican Gov. Calvin Coolidge of Massachusetts in a 1920 speech to rally opposition to labor union organizers.








From the Archives 24: Calvin Coolidge, Law & Order (1920) | Ipse Dixit


Listen to From the Archives 24: Calvin Coolidge, Law & Order (1920) from Ipse Dixit. On March 2, 1920, in New York City, Governor Calvin Coolidge of Massachusetts recorded a speech titled "Law and Order" for the Columbia Graphophone Company's "Nation's Forum" label. Coolidge recorded 7 takes...




shows.acast.com




----
In 1964, Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater took up the law-and-order banner in his campaign against President Lyndon Johnson.








The Goldwater Campaign


In the South, Barry Goldwater had made it possible for people to hold great rallies or carnivals of white supremacy.




www.newyorker.com




Goldwater linked the problem of crime with the prevalence of public welfare programs and decried “the growing menace in our country … to personal safety, to life, to limb and property, in homes, in churches, on the playgrounds, and places of business, particularly in our great cities.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/daily/may98/goldwaterspeech.htm


----
In the 1988 presidential race, GOP candidate George H.W. Bush stressed law and order in his campaign against Massachusetts Gov. Michael Dukakis.








George H. W. Bush: Campaigns and Elections | Miller Center







millercenter.org




----
Four years later, Arkansas Gov. Bill Clinton, the Democratic candidate for president, tried to make law and order a pro-Democratic issue. He argued that Bush had not kept his promise to control crime and said, “We cannot take our country back until we take our neighborhoods back.”
“I want to be tough on crime and good for civil rights,” Clinton said. “You can’t have civil justice without order and safety.”








THE 1992 CAMPAIGN: The Democrats; Clinton, in Houston Speech, Assails Bush on Crime Issue (Published 1992)







www.nytimes.com




----
In 2016, Trump ran just such a campaign. He cited rampant lawlessness and “race riots in our streets on a monthly basis” as reasons to “change our leadership immediately.”








America Is Broke, Says Donald Trump


The US, which has USD 20 trillion in debt, over USD 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities and a massive trade deficit of almost USD 800 billion a year, is "broke," and the world's biggest economy can no longer create "high-paying jobs," the Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump said today.




www.ndtv.com




By Austin Sarat
September 08, 2020








Trump’s law-and-order campaign relies on a historic American tradition of racist and anti-immigrant politics


President Trump’s law-and-order campaign rhetoric has been compared to Richard Nixon’s and George Wallace’s similar themes in 1968. But such appeals go much further back, to the US in the early 1800s.




theconversation.com


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> If they weren't criminals torching buildings, and threatening people, I'd have no concerns there either.
> Also the officer in the Floyd death should be investigated or charged, but first degree murder is overreach
> The officers in the Blake death should be commended for their excellent behaviour. If they're charged, it's a travesty.


That stuff is just background noise.
That kind of stuff is just incidental for about 3 and a half days.

The crowds are getting larger.
The support is at least 60% of population. 
They want to be heard.

How long can the government control this movement for change?

It is as if a completely new political party has been created and it is challenging the existing parties.

In the 1960's and '70's the students took over college campuses and university properties. But this virus has most colleges closed.

So now it seems that young people are "Owing" small Protest Areas on Main Street instead of colleges like 1970's.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Not Portland but also a sh_t city...

Some protesters chanted "we hope they die," the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office said on Twitter.









L.A. protesters try to break into hospital where two officers are in critical condition after 'a cowardly' point-blank shooting


The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department shared video of the shooting that shows a person open fire through the passenger-side window of the patrol car in Compton.




www.newsweek.com





At least the perpetrators life matters right?


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Completely agree. The sudden surge in joblessness added a huge extra stress on existing dissatisfaction. At its core, I don't think this is about race. If poor whites weren't brainwashed by the Republicans, I think they would actually be shoulder to shoulder marching and protesting with everyone else because they actually have the same gripes: they are poor, have no future, and don't get the social services they need.


It's mostly white Democrat voters protesting, not Republicans. And they have been brainwashed by the left media and the Democrat party.

Almost all Republicans, most moderate Democrats, and most black people want the police forces to remain intact. It's only the alt left and a few communist Democrat politicians who want to defund the police.

And if you want to defund the police, you are alt left and/or marxist.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Deleted, going to wait for more info on a breaking news story


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

How the Supreme Court Dropped the Ball on the Right to Protest
Over the years, courts have carefully updated our speech protections while mostly ignoring the freedom of assembly. Now they may have a chance to change that.
By Kia Rahnama 
August 17, 2020








How the Supreme Court Dropped the Ball on the Right to Protest


Over the years, courts have carefully updated our speech protections while mostly ignoring the freedom of assembly. Now they may have a chance to change that.




www.politico.com





‘The Court Has Refused to Fashion Concrete Legal Standards About the Rights of Protesters’
FAIR - CounterSpin
Host Janine Jackson interviews Kia Rahnama
September 11, 2020
Transcript:








'The Court Has Refused to Fashion Concrete Legal Standards About the Rights of Protesters' - FAIR


"Most Americans believe that they have a very robust right to protest...but the courts haven't felt that way necessarily."




fair.org




(.MP3 Format)


http://www.fair.org/audio/counterspin/CounterSpin200911Rahnama.mp3


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

I thought that this article was quite interesting as to how the government is monitoring the protests.

How the Police Use AI to Track and Identify You

While protestors marched through the city demanding justice for George Floyd and an end to police brutality, Minneapolis police trained surveillance tools to identify them. With just hours to sift through thousands of CCTV camera feeds and other dragnet data streams, the police turned to a range of automated systems for help, reaching for information collected by automated license plate readers, CCTV-video analysis software, open-source geolocation tools, and Clearview AI’s controversial facial recognition system. High above the city, an unarmed Predator drone flew in circles, outfitted with a specialized camera first pioneered by the police in Baltimore that is capable of identifying individuals from 10,000 feet in the air, providing real-time surveillance of protestors across the city.

By Bryan McMahon
October 03, 2020








How the Police Use AI to Track and Identify You


Modern technology has enabled the development and deployment of the pervasive and precise surveillance that may be slipping out of the control of the public.




thegradient.pub


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

calm said:


> How the Police Use AI to Track and Identify You


This has been going on for some time. Just like the Chinese are doing, police in US & Canada have cameras set up all over public demonstrations, and record faces of people who come close. I try to stay away from ALL public demonstrations, and if I have to go close to them, I turn my head away from the event so that my back is facing police... my best attempt at avoiding being recorded.

The problem is where that data goes. We don't exactly know, but as I understand it, the data is retained for the longer term. My guess is that people who are identified as protesters end up in government or national security databases and are then tracked. This could have life-long consequences, nothing to do with the specific protest that was occurring.

There's a long history of this of course. The RCMP was actively spying on students and youth protesters for decades (1950s, 1960s, 1970s). Cops have always hated protesters and demonstrations. Remember, the RCMP (intelligence agency) even had a file on Rob Rae from his early days.

Many young people have been adapting to this by wearing masks at protests (long before COVID). Unfortunately the young people probably aren't aware that digital recording methods have superior ways to identify them. An example would be "gait analysis" which can help identify someone even if their face is obscured.

We're truly in 1984 type of territory here (Big Brother is watching you) and it's never been seen before in history. All of these tech tools will be used to suppress dissent and legitimate protest for the next 50+ years.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Facial recognition from a drone 10 thousand feet in the air is quite surprising to me. I was quite aware of the other technologies, but surveillance that recognizes an individual from such a distance is chilling.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I previously worked as a consultant for the government. This is when I learned about some of the things the government is up to.

I quit that job due to ethical concerns about how the government and police are leveraging tech to violate civil liberties and democratic principles.

As a result I walked away from a 200K salary + bonuses that would have probably made me a very rich man in 10 years.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Trump just walked away from "Stimulus" talks.
Says no action til after election.
There is presently a riot on Wall Street and will soon be on Main Street.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Rittenhouse drove to a neighbouring city, cleaned graffiti and provided medical assistance to protestors and those who needed it. *I want that kind of "troublemaker".*
> 
> Later, someone decided to start shooting at him, he returned fire and ran away from the armed people assaulting him.


Notice how @MrMatt and @Eder too, in another thread, _immediately_ came to the defense of this right wing terrorist, Kyle Rittenhouse. As soon as Rittenhouse shot and killed two people, MrMatt and Eder were here calling him a good guy.

How can seemingly normal people like MrMatt and Eder so confidently defend violent extremists? Let's look back at this example.

Right wing media and propaganda outlets paint guys like Rittenhouse as regular guys, but they are not. If you consume too much right-wing media, you will be oblivious to the fact that many of these people *are driven by extremist ideology. *After Rittenhouse killed two people, he was spotted at a bar where he was drinking with Proud Boys. He was flashing the "***********" hand sign (link to news item).










Look how much fun he's having with his *********** extremist buddies! This was *after* he killed two people. His t-shirt reads: "Free as F***"

I can forgive MrMatt and Eder as we didn't know at the time that Rittenhouse was hanging out with white supremacists and believed in the supremacy of white people. This is new information that just came out. But there were clues even then, since he was in a white militia.

But with this new information, with the benefit of HINDSIGHT, let me explain to the board why it was pretty clear this Rittenhouse guy was a violent extremist who went looking for trouble.

He suited up like a soldier, playing 'army man'. He took an illegal firearm as he travelled a long distance... he went to a city where he doesn't live to confront black protesters. He wasn't trying to defend himself, but rather, was on a "***********" mission. He went *hunting* for black people and their liberal supporters.

Far-right extremists tend to have one these motivations

kill/attack blacks, Jews, Muslims, non-whites [Rittenhouse, Roof, Tarrant, Bissonnette, etc]
attack liberals who support above groups [Rittenhouse, attacks on Portland, MAGA insurrection]
take down the government [MAGA insurrection, Timothy McVeigh]
flex ***********/supremacy, control the nation [MAGA, Nazis]
Rittenhouse was aiming to either confront or attack black protesters in another city. If not intended as a direct attack, it was clearly looking for trouble or hoping for a fight. He shot and killed 2, wandering the streets with his rifle and shooting at the public.

So the next time some armed lunatic sends bombs, or guns down people in the streets, I sincerely hope that @MrMatt and @Eder won't jump to defend them or call them good guys, like they did with Rittenhouse.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Notice how @MrMatt and @Eder too, in another thread, _immediately_ came to the defense of this right wing terrorist, Kyle Rittenhouse. As soon as Rittenhouse shot and killed two people, MrMatt and Eder were here calling him a good guy.
> 
> How can seemingly normal people like MrMatt and Eder so confidently defend violent extremists? Let's look back at this example.
> 
> ...


I stand against violence, however I do believe in the right to self defense.

It appears to be a case of self defense, he was assaulted, he defended himself and ran away.
He attempted to turn himself in to the authorities.
He called 911.

The issue here is that we see different facts, lets have the court case figure it out.

Based on the information available, I don't think he is a terrorist, therefore I don't think I'm defending a terrorist.

I understand that based on the information available you think he is a terrorist.


That being said, I do think we need more people willing to clean graffiti and offer medical aid to protestors.
I support the right to protest, and I think it's good to have people ensuring that they are doing so safely, providing medical aid is part of that. 

So yes, I support these two acts, don't you want more people like this?
1. Providing medical assistance
2. Cleaning grafitti.

It seems that the whole disagreement is if it was self defence, or a terrorist attack. I think that's for the court to decide.
I think it's okay to have an opinion.
For example I think in the Rittenhouse case it was clearly self defence.

I also think you're being quite inflammatory.
I don't call you a terrorist supporter for supporting and defending BLM riots, because it isn't polite and doesn't contribute to the discussion.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Just for those who forgot what started this thread, go ahead, look at post #1.



james4beach said:


> This is one of the worst abuses of federal authority I have ever seen. This is a direct attack on the city, to intimidate and suppress dissidents. Right out of the playbook of a third world dictatorship. And we're not talking verbal or rhetorical attack. Trump has sent in specialized troops to "rough up" the city, and score political points with the far right base.


Trump sent Federal Law Enforcement to protect a Federal Government Building.

James called this out as "abuse of federal authority".

Protestors were ordered to disperse by law enforcement and tear gas was used.

Goes on from there.
Go ahead, read the thread, who's standing up for rioters?
Who's decrying the use of law enforcement to selectively remove the most egregious offenders?

I don't think violent riots should be permitted, irrespective of political affiliation.
These riots in Portland should have been shut down, as should the capital building riot/insurrection.

I don't believe Trump deployed the National Guard to stop Portland riots, but they're in the Capital buildings today.
I'm glad they're FINALLY taking these violent acts by large mobs seriously.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Whoa........one conspiracy theory at a time please.

Let's deal with what is in front of us now, and worry about the past in the future.

Trump incited a riot. Some of his associates and family incited a riot. Some politicians assisted in the riot. People were killed and hurt in the riot.

So now.......we deal with them first and then discuss prior mistakes later.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Whoa........one conspiracy theory at a time please.
> 
> Let's deal with what is in front of us now, and worry about the past in the future.
> 
> ...


Then why are you posting this to the Portland Riots thread?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Because you jump from thread to thread spreading conspiracy theories and fake facts. You are busier than a banana vendor at a monkey convention.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Because you jump from thread to thread spreading conspiracy theories and fake facts. You are busier than a banana vendor at a monkey convention.


Name 1 fake fact or conspiracy theory.
To be clear I'm using the following definition of "conspiracy" 
"a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful."


By definition the public campaign website of a political candidate, or bills voted on by parliament or congress are not secret, and therefore not conspiracies.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Wow, @MrMatt is sticking with the white supremacist! Even after it's revealed that the kid is a member of the movement, and associates with violent extremists (Proud Boys).

In case you didn't catch this point, Rittenhouse has been revealed as a white supremacist (I'm posting on this topic because this news just came out). He is very likely an extremist. How can you say it's OK for an armed white supremacist to go to another city and start shooting at the public?

It's clearly not self defence, when an armed extremist goes to a distant city he has no business in, _to face groups he sees as his enemy_, then shoots and kills those people. That's an attack.



MrMatt said:


> That being said, I do think we need more people willing to clean graffiti and offer medical aid to protestors.
> I support the right to protest, and I think it's good to have people ensuring that they are doing so safely, providing medical aid is part of that.


Nobody should be going to a protest, giving medical aid (or whatever) while carrying an automatic weapon in "ready-to-shoot" posture. That's insanity. The presence of the weapon is incredibly aggressive and threatening.

Maybe you are unable to see how unacceptable this is because you were in the military and saw things like this. Those were in war zones or battle training. We don't live in a war zone.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Rittenhouse doesn't have much of a legal defense, so it may be they think his only chance is to present himself as a loyal MAGA member and hope to convince at least one juror to refuse to convict him...regardless of the evidence.

Given the current state of politics in the US, it may actually work. A hung jury is likely the best outcome they can hope for.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> Because you jump from thread to thread spreading conspiracy theories and fake facts. You are busier than a banana vendor at a monkey convention.


 ... ouch!


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Wow, @MrMatt is sticking with the white supremacist! Even after it's revealed that the kid is a member of the movement, and associates with violent extremists (Proud Boys).


The proud boys are problematic, but the leader isn't white, which is interesting for an allegedly white supremacist group.

Yes, apparently the OK sign is "white supremacist"

Personally, I think he shouldn't have been there, nobody should have, but nobody should have been rioting either.

But that being said, if you attack someone with a gun, you might get shot.


My "support" of Rittenhouse is simply a viewing of the evidence available at the time. It wasn't political then, and isn't now.


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## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

Closing thread, political bickering and impasse


----------

