# Getting a Second Degree, While Working - Advice?



## eulogy (Oct 29, 2011)

I've been thinking lately and the thought of getting a second degree has popped in my head. I currently have BscE (engineering) and I work as an engineer. 

I was thinking of getting a second degree in philosophy. This is something that is of interest to me. It's not something that will result in any sort of increased income or really much (if any) sort of help with pursuing a more profitable job. I just want to learn it because I'm interested in it. 

I'm under the impression that I won't have to do a ton of extra classes that fill in a 4 year program, as I've already completed a degree. (Something I'll have to research on my part.)

The thing about working full time is that most of the evening classes are related to business because that tends to be the niche that studies like that.

I'm just looking for some advice and perspectives of those that have done this before. I realize I could probably just buy books and read, but philosophy requires a little more dialogue and debate. This is something I can easily afford (debt free, lots of savings, live on less than 50% of my take home income).

Thoughts?


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Do it! Education doesn't always have to be an investment in human capital; it can also be a consumption good. (And you never know: contemplating the Stoics could make you more efficient at work.) 

The issue I have with viewing education as an investment is that it is often overvalued or improperly valued: not every degree has a positive financial payoff. Going into it viewing it as a consumption good is much better than the reverse.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Go for it! Education is never a waste.


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

Not much better than education for its own sake. And in philosophy no less. It sounds like you would get great satisfaction from doing it - so do! Enjoy!


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

Is there any way that you can write off books? tuition? Not sure how old you are, but if I recall correctly the gov't provides a tax credit for retirees to pursue education post-retirement. Great idea to pursue your passion.


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## eulogy (Oct 29, 2011)

Thanks for the opinions everyone. It does feel like something I should do. And it's somewhat more appealing to approach it for the degree, as it gives me something to aim for instead of taking random courses in philosophy for leisure. Also if I can complete the degree faster (by not having to take the filler courses) I would be pretty happy.

I'm 29, so I don't think I would get any real tax credits unless I went full time, which is sort of impossible with a full time job.

Has anyone done this while working full time? I imagine I could get to a few classes throughout the week and just stay later at work. It's harder with classes that are from 10am-2pm, since philosophy doesn't appear to be popular enough to get 6-9pm classes.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

If this helps (or not), working on my second degree as well. Got my B.Sc already, working on B.A in Health Admin. I work 50 hours per week at my job. Late-30s and have not done MBA (yet) since I enjoy other things in life too much to be in school FT for 2 years. That may change eventually, we'll see.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

eulogy said:


> Thanks for the opinions everyone. It does feel like something I should do. And it's somewhat more appealing to approach it for the degree, as it gives me something to aim for instead of taking random courses in philosophy for leisure. Also if I can complete the degree faster (by not having to take the filler courses) I would be pretty happy.
> 
> I'm 29, so I don't think I would get any real tax credits unless I went full time, which is sort of impossible with a full time job.
> 
> Has anyone done this while working full time? I imagine I could get to a few classes throughout the week and just stay later at work. It's harder with classes that are from 10am-2pm, since philosophy doesn't appear to be popular enough to get 6-9pm classes.


You get tax credits for part time studies as well. There's a set amount for books and months of part time studies. I forget the exact amounts, but the school will send you a T2202 come tax time. It's not as much as full time, but I've gotten back close to half my tuition costs back as tax credits when it is all said and done.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

The first step to become financialy independent is to learn how to think, i.e., distinguish truth from falsehood. If you can develope your mind into a powerfull weapon with the precise nature to become rich you will be able to become rich.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

eulogy

Just like this site offers a differnt path then school or books. There are some good sites out there for philosophy that allow for debate & very creative games that are played to cultivate thinking & truth that wont cost you a tuition fee.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

lonewolf said:


> There are some good sites out there for philosophy that allow for debate & very creative games that are played to cultivate thinking & truth that wont cost you a tuition fee.


I participated in such debates a few years ago at U of T. I must say that I learned an incredible amount!


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## Rainey (Mar 18, 2012)

Why not go for a Masters? 
Requires less time, and would likely mean a more mature environment. 18 year old first years are...18. Something that may be a bit tiresome in a philosophy program. You may have to take a couple of qualifying courses, but your experience will help on admissions.

I take it you're not doing this for career advancement, but don't discount how impressive it when someone has the guts and the curiosity to leave their comfort zone. An MA on top of your undergrad suggests development. A second BA (may) suggest boredom.

Myself, I went the Masters route and enjoyed it immensely. The letters themsleves have probably been useful in my career, but not as much as the rich and challenging interaction with my classmates and professors. Something much more likely in a post-grad environment.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Great advice!


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## lifeliver (Aug 30, 2010)

I studied Philosophy as an undergrad and I highly recommend it if you have interest in the subject. My suggestion would be to find a university class schedule and simply sit in some of the lectures without actually paying the tuition. You should be able to do this with 1st and 2nd year courses as they are quite large. After this if you really feel that it is worth your $$$ to get a full degree then you can take the plunge.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

In the future it would not surprise me if an expensive degree is on a resume it will be viewed by more & more employers as an indication of how impractical the person is that spent money on something that could have been done a lot cheaper. 

If on the internet a course can be taken for free or for a lower cost then going to the bricks & mortar school might make a practical employer less likely to hire the person that paid a lot for thier degree. Iam not an employer but if I was one & had to decide between 2 people equaly qualified candidates I would go with the one that took the most practical path to get thier degree then the one that was not efficient & spent not only time & energy for understanding & learning but waisted resources to come up with the money for the course.


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## eulogy (Oct 29, 2011)

Thanks for chipping in everyone. It is very helpful.



bgc_fan said:


> You get tax credits for part time studies as well. There's a set amount for books and months of part time studies. I forget the exact amounts, but the school will send you a T2202 come tax time. It's not as much as full time, but I've gotten back close to half my tuition costs back as tax credits when it is all said and done.


Well this is good to hear. It makes the decision a lot easier when it comes to the financial side of it.



lonewolf said:


> Just like this site offers a differnt path then school or books. There are some good sites out there for philosophy that allow for debate & very creative games that are played to cultivate thinking & truth that wont cost you a tuition fee.


Maybe this is what I need. Maybe this is the equivalent of wanting a big expensive powerful car and instead of buying it, maybe taking one for a test drive (or renting) is good enough to eliminate the craving. I'm not sure. Definitely hitting up some sites in the meantime won't hurt.



Rainey said:


> Why not go for a Masters?
> Requires less time, and would likely mean a more mature environment. 18 year old first years are...18. Something that may be a bit tiresome in a philosophy program. You may have to take a couple of qualifying courses, but your experience will help on admissions.
> 
> I take it you're not doing this for career advancement, but don't discount how impressive it when someone has the guts and the curiosity to leave their comfort zone. An MA on top of your undergrad suggests development. A second BA (may) suggest boredom.
> ...


In all honesty, I have no desire to get my masters. I'm not even really craving the the idea of school, classmates or anything like that. I just have a genuine desire to learn this. I thought MoneyGal said it best, education as a "consumption good". I do have other career development moves, which are much more targeted to the industry I am in and the direction I'm trying to drive my career. But this is a move to learn, for just the sake of learning. I don't expect any financial pay out from it (other than the thinking side of things that comes with philosophy, which could help me).



lifeliver said:


> I studied Philosophy as an undergrad and I highly recommend it if you have interest in the subject. My suggestion would be to find a university class schedule and simply sit in some of the lectures without actually paying the tuition. You should be able to do this with 1st and 2nd year courses as they are quite large. After this if you really feel that it is worth your $$$ to get a full degree then you can take the plunge.


That's a good idea. Gives a nice hands on encounter, to get a taste for what it is like. 



lonewolf said:


> In the future it would not surprise me if an expensive degree is on a resume it will be viewed by more & more employers as an indication of how impractical the person is that spent money on something that could have been done a lot cheaper.
> 
> If on the internet a course can be taken for free or for a lower cost then going to the bricks & mortar school might make a practical employer less likely to hire the person that paid a lot for thier degree. Iam not an employer but if I was one & had to decide between 2 people equaly qualified candidates I would go with the one that took the most practical path to get thier degree then the one that was not efficient & spent not only time & energy for understanding & learning but waisted resources to come up with the money for the course.


I agree with you. The thought has occurred, but this isn't something that will go on my resume. But I have similar thoughts. At least in my industry, a Masters would be negative to neutral in value for me. I had an interview with the boss for a new guy looking for a job. He just moved a few months ago to Canada from Spain. He had 9 years of University of education, Masters and very little industry experience. We both concluded "career student" and a candidate that is most likely to cut and run.

I get that. And maybe a free course would be fine. I've looked at MIT's Open Courseware and maybe it's worth going through a few of them.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Try Coursera as well - here's a link to the open Humanities courses. https://www.coursera.org/courses


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

eulogy said:


> I've been thinking lately and the thought of getting a second degree has popped in my head. I currently have BscE (engineering) and I work as an engineer.
> 
> I was thinking of getting a second degree in philosophy. This is something that is of interest to me. It's not something that will result in any sort of increased income or really much (if any) sort of help with pursuing a more profitable job. I just want to learn it because I'm interested in it.
> 
> ...


How about a P.Eng first ... http://www.peng.ca/english/profession/bodies.html


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## eulogy (Oct 29, 2011)

MoneyGal said:


> Try Coursera as well - here's a link to the open Humanities courses. https://www.coursera.org/courses


Thanks, there is a lot of good courses there as well.



rikk said:


> How about a P.Eng first ... http://www.peng.ca/english/profession/bodies.html


This is something that doesn't really require any more education to receive. I would have actually had the practice exam completed if my father didn't pass away in January.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Personally, I don't understand the desire for formal recognition in this case. Personally, I spend several hours every week learning new things, have been doing this since I was in school. I've even taught courses at schools that provide degrees or diplomas in the topics. I found it ironic that I helped certify students when I didn't have the certification myself, just the knowledgebase. 

Since I've always been self employed, the paper recognition never mattered to my employment prospects, but this didn't stop me from learning. I've taken specific courses, self taught, or joined groups to learn new skills. Avoided paying fees for filler courses, or topics that weren't of interest. 

I enjoyed learning philosophy, and found it quite useful in business but, that being said, I don't think you'd need a degree in it. Learn it yourself, for fun.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

eulogy said:


> This is something that doesn't really require any more education to receive. I would have actually had the practice exam completed if my father didn't pass away in January.


My condolences ... 

I mentioned it because I started on it, similar events, time passed, decided was of no value ... what I was interested in though was everything from processors right through to project management ... even completed a few math courses offered by Waterloo, very interesting ... guess I'm saying what others are saying ... consider just taking particular courses of interest. Also, it's difficult to complete a program over time ... courses are not available when you need them (prerequisites), curriculum changes ... fwiw.


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## eulogy (Oct 29, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> Personally, I don't understand the desire for formal recognition in this case. Personally, I spend several hours every week learning new things, have been doing this since I was in school. I've even taught courses at schools that provide degrees or diplomas in the topics. I found it ironic that I helped certify students when I didn't have the certification myself, just the knowledgebase.
> 
> Since I've always been self employed, the paper recognition never mattered to my employment prospects, but this didn't stop me from learning. I've taken specific courses, self taught, or joined groups to learn new skills. Avoided paying fees for filler courses, or topics that weren't of interest.
> 
> I enjoyed learning philosophy, and found it quite useful in business but, that being said, I don't think you'd need a degree in it. Learn it yourself, for fun.


For the most part that is the way I was thinking. I was just looking for classes that I could take on the subject and saw the degree. I already have a degree and _should_ be able to avoid all the filler courses, so that's what sort of peaked my interest. I'm one of those people that think I might as well earn something if I'm going to do it. Will I need a philosophy degree? Not that I can see. But than again, my mind changes a lot too. I don't know. I'm still inclined to think if I'm putting in my dues, I might as well get something.

Right now I decided to try the free route and take some of the free courses online. I'm going to mimic the undergrad courses to see how it goes and when I can't mimic them I'll just get their syllabus and pick up the text they're going through.



rikk said:


> My condolences ...
> 
> I mentioned it because I started on it, similar events, time passed, decided was of no value ... what I was interested in though was everything from processors right through to project management ... even completed a few math courses offered by Waterloo, very interesting ... guess I'm saying what others are saying ... consider just taking particular courses of interest. Also, it's difficult to complete a program over time ... courses are not available when you need them (prerequisites), curriculum changes ... fwiw.


Thanks. Peng is on my agenda and always has been. It's sort of my escape into doing my own work without the need of a boss.

And I realize it's tough going through another program especially when you're working full time. It's actually part of the reason I created this thread because I'm not really sure how tough it would be to do it.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

eulogy said:


> I'm still inclined to think if I'm putting in my dues, I might as well get something


You will get the knowledge, no matter what. No missing piece of paper will ever change that. 

Funny how so many people fall for the marketing of one of the oldest "big businesses" in the world...everyone complains about the banks, but no one blames the "dealers of knowledge". If you don't buy our paper, everyone will think you're stupid...

Just goes to show how a good pr department is important...threaten to cut their money and everyone screams "murder". In reality, they are in the business of selling degrees, not knowledge. The degree is just one of their waysof maximizing revenues. 

If you got 100% on every course, but failed to take some required joke course like engineering English, are you really less of an engineer than the guy who surfed the curve and has a degree? Think about that the next time you cross that bridge...


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

Just a Guy said:


> You will get the knowledge, no matter what. No missing piece of paper will ever change that.
> 
> Funny how so many people fall for the marketing of one of the oldest "big businesses" in the world...everyone complains about the banks, but no one blames the "dealers of knowledge". If you don't buy our paper, everyone will think you're stupid...
> 
> ...


OT: Well, there are some employers that really want to see that piece of paper (the ones that build those bridges you reference also like to see that P.Eng); the guy that surfed the curve need not apply.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

The guy who surfed the curve has the paper...employers seldom pull the transcripts.


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## eulogy (Oct 29, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> You will get the knowledge, no matter what. No missing piece of paper will ever change that.
> 
> Funny how so many people fall for the marketing of one of the oldest "big businesses" in the world...everyone complains about the banks, but no one blames the "dealers of knowledge". If you don't buy our paper, everyone will think you're stupid...
> 
> ...


I can't say I agree with you. My piece of paper has opened me up to a world of opportunity. The knowledge actually doesn't play much of a role. The paper matters. The question about getting 100% on all my courses but missing an insignificant filler course, what does it matter? Well, I don't get a piece of paper. I don't get recognized BY APEGA. I don't have the right to legally practice. I'm not allowed to call my self an engineer. I can not legally validate my knowledge to a client. And the same follows true for doctors, lawyers, etc. 

I know philosophy falls into a different category. Even though I may have fallen for the "marketing" it has paid out a much higher return then I ever put into it.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

eulogy said:


> My piece of paper has opened me up to a world of opportunity.


^ I totally agree with this.
The "paper" has opened many doors for me.
It allowed me to work abroad in 4 countries, and earn respect that is otherwise not possible.

Corporate employers the world over still want to look at "the paper" while offering jobs.
Local, small business employers can perhaps be indifferent to paper, but most multi-national corporations have strict rules around minimum educational qualifications required for a position, verification of credentials, references, etc.

It's definitely money well spent, which has paid for itself many times over.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I think there's a material difference between a PEng and an undergraduate philosophy degree. And I am sympathetic (as someone working in a regulated profession) to the function of certificates, degrees and licenses as economic moats. But even if an undergraduate degree is little more than a moat (and maybe not a very good one at that), that doesn't mean it has no value, either in the eyes of the degree-holder or the others. 

Recent Bloomberg article on this point: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-20/why-barbers-should-buy-stocks.html


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Oops, perhaps I should clarify - my degree is not in philosophy ;o)
(that being said, I have read and analyzed my fair share of Hegel)

I didn't realize that the preceding discussion is about a philosophy degree.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I agree with Harold's and euology's comments about the value of education. When I add up the annual salary I have collected since graduation, this is CLEARLY the best investment ever made. It has opened up doors for me that would have otherwise never been opened.

Of course, the subject matter of the diploma is very important. I look at the economy and the job ads out there and what I'm seeing is demand for nurses, doctors, project managers, engineers, accountants and the like. All of these are skilled professions which require various types of specific diplomas. I personally don't see the value in spending time and money on things like philosophy. What business is looking for people with such a diploma? How many such jobs can there be?


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

OK, but if it isn't an "investment," but a consumption good, then obtaining a second degree/taking eligible post-secondary education courses is a tax-preferred expenditure - like a gun collecting or scrapbooking hobby, but encouraged by way of incentives built into the tax system. If you don't need it to "pay off," what's the harm? None.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

The acquisition of knowledge/learning is indeed a never ending process & one that enriches one's life. Learning isn't necessarily synonymous with [structured] education, and it does not end with any degree.

I finished my degrees long ago, but I'm still learning about everything. I have always been interested in languages for example, but I did not study them in a structured setting. However, nothing prevents me from learning them now!


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## eulogy (Oct 29, 2011)

Some people have chipped in without really reading my intentions. The goal is to learn philosophy. I understand that I'm probably not going to receive any financial rewards for doing this nor do I expect any financial gains. Nor do I feel like the cost of doing this is going to slow down my momentum of savings and things like that.

I understand that I could pick up some books, read and learn. That has worked quite well for me with personal finance. I believe a big reason for being able to do it this way is mainly because I have an objective means of determining whether I'm doing it right (ie: my finances improve). Philosophy doesn't seem like the topic that you just pick up some books and read. I know there's a lot to be read in the subject, but there is more to it than that, in particular, the thinking side of it. I need to be able to understand and make the arguments. I can follow along on a course syllabus at a University, but when I write a 20 page essay on Stoicism how do I know if I'm objectively right? Am I out in left field? Am I focused on the wrong things? Do I just flat out not get it? Or do I understand it perfectly? I don't know. I'm the student and the person marking it.

I don't _need_ to take a structured education to dabble in philosophy, but if I genuinely would like to learn a significant amount on the subject, it's definitely a good option. The structure provides a game plan, objectives and the inevitable things that occur when you're under the gun with deadlines (essays, assignments, in class discussions, defending myself, etc). It's pretty much guaranteed that I wouldn't be writing a 20 page essay on Stoicism if I was flying solo on this because I'm the one that marks it. I can understand why some people wouldn't want to do it this way probably cause you're not that interested in the subject to fork out for it. Structure is something that works for me. It pulls me through the subjects I'm interested in and pulls me through ones I don't even know about. 

And I'm still of the opinion that if I'm going to take a genuine stab at learning philosophy and I'm going to put in the work, I might as well get a prize. The analogy that keeps popping into my head is a runner. Why pay money to run in a marathon when you could just run around the block? The goal, the aim, the focus, the event, the prize (even if it's just a certificate saying you finished).


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

eulogy said:


> And I'm still of the opinion that if I'm going to take a genuine stab at learning philosophy and I'm going to put in the work, I might as well get a prize. The analogy that keeps popping into my head is a runner. Why pay money to run in a marathon when you could just run around the block? The goal, the aim, the focus, the event, the prize (even if it's just a certificate saying you finished).


This won't be your average 10K marathon ... I'll check back in a few years, see how that 2nd degree in Philosophy while working full time is progessing ... best of luck ... and fwiw, an analogy is not a proof ... enjoy the day :encouragement:


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## eulogy (Oct 29, 2011)

rikk said:


> This won't be your average 10K marathon ... I'll check back in a few years, see how that 2nd degree in Philosophy while working full time is progessing ... best of luck ... and fwiw, an analogy is not a proof ... enjoy the day :encouragement:


Oh I know they're not related 

I guess my point was that there's a lot of things we all do that could be done cheaper or for free, but does that make it any better? I could read a book about Thailand or visit it. Ones cheaper than the other.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

eulogy said:


> Oh I know they're not related
> 
> I guess my point was that there's a lot of things we all do that could be done cheaper or for free, but does that make it any better? I could read a book about Thailand or visit it. Ones cheaper than the other.


You're breaking up (insert noisy sounds) ... adios, and ... enjoy the day! Speaking of Thailand ... you should go, and sure, read the book first, especially if you can get it free ... say at the library ... free is sometimes much much better :encouragement:


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

10k is not a marathon. And the reason you pay the money for official race is to get the swag. T-shirt etc. ;P


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

Four Pillars said:


> 10k is not a marathon. And the reason you pay the money for official race is to get the swag. T-shirt etc. ;P


Exactly nthego:


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Plus it just sounds a lot better

"I finished the ScotiaBank Toronto 10k race" vs "I went for a 10k jog" 

"I have a degree in philosophy" vs "I dabble in philosophy"


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## eulogy (Oct 29, 2011)

rikk said:


> You're breaking up (insert noisy sounds) ... adios, and ... enjoy the day! Speaking of Thailand ... you should go, and sure, read the book first, especially if you can get it free ... say at the library ... free is sometimes much much better :encouragement:


I also have money saved for a 'round the world' trip. It's on the agenda! :encouragement:



> I don't get a piece of paper but I did get comments like ... "geez yer retiring already ... lucky you ... you're what 52, 54?" Nice ... quality of life for some, piece of paper for others ...


At the rate I'm going, I'll be able to retire sometime in my mid 30s. I literally need to find something to spend my money on


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

rikk said:


> This won't be your average 10K marathon ... I'll check back in a few years, see how that 2nd degree in Philosophy while working full time is progessing ... best of luck ... and fwiw, an analogy is not a proof ... enjoy the day :encouragement:



A marathon isn't 10km. That's a 10k. A marathon is 42.2 km or 26.2 miles. Nothing else is a marathon.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

RBull said:


> A marathon isn't 10km. That's a 10k. A marathon is 42.2 km or 26.2 miles. Nothing else is a marathon.


Meant tongue in cheek ... won't be a "10K marathon" ... "cake walk"


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Thanks for the explanation. Still doesn't make sense to me though. I guess as a marathoner for years I heard too often a run of any distance being called a marathon -even from beginning runners. LOL 



rikk said:


> Meant tongue in cheek ... won't be a "10K marathon" ... "cake walk"


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## eulogy (Oct 29, 2011)

Thanks for the inputs everyone. I think the plan now is to dabble and take a few first year courses to see how I like it. And go from there.


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## bettyboop (Dec 13, 2011)

I have taken a couple courses through here, 

https://www.coursera.org/


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## lightreddish (Mar 21, 2013)

bettyboop said:


> I have taken a couple courses through here,
> 
> https://www.coursera.org/



Courses is a great idea. You can do learning and work at the same time and plus, you can take part in different debates. I think it is interesting!


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I'm doing the Coursera course on behavioural finance! Starts next week.


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