# T5008 and TDB8150



## InstantOats (Sep 6, 2014)

Hi all,

I'm using Simpletax and I'm wondering what would we put in T5008 box 20 for TDB8150, since there are no cap gains/lost or dividends and I got a T5 for the interest, what would the ACB be??

Also in Simpletax FAQ for T5008 it seems I may not even need to submit it since I have the T5?

TIA


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## canplay (Mar 1, 2017)

*T5008*

Did you receive a T5008 from TD? If you sold shares you would have, if not you won't get one. Now if you sell shares and get a T5008 you have to write in your adjusted cost base, which can be found on your investment statement from the month prior to sale, it will be your cost or book value.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

A T5 and a T5008 are for completely different things. T5s are issued for investment income (Schedule 4) and not cap gains from an asset sale. A T5008 is issued is there has been an asset sale and the data goes on Schedule 3.


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## InstantOats (Sep 6, 2014)

Thanks for the insight all. From doing some research, with TDB8150 being a high interest savings in a TDW, the income is classified as interest so even though I sold a bunch last year where my cash was parked, it was all return of capital as there was no value change thus there would be no ACB.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The effect is zero but not because of how you calculated it. Its unit price is $10, so its ACB is $10/unit based on your acquisition. But your sales price in 2016 is also $10/unit. Cap gains = $10 (Net Proceeds) -$10 (Adjusted Cost Base) = 0. So there is nothing to report on Schedule 3. 

The only thing you report is the T5 interest income on Schedule 4 (interest from Canadian sources Box 13 I suspect).


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

InstantOats said:


> ... From doing some research, with TDB8150 being a high interest savings in a TDW, the income is classified as interest ...


So far so good.




InstantOats said:


> ... even though I sold a bunch last year where my cash was parked, it was all return of capital as there was no value change thus there would be no ACB.


This suggests you need to review the different flavours of income paid and what happens with the ACB.


If what was paid was return of capital (RoC), one would be subtracting it from the ACB so that there *would* be a capital gain (CG), when selling.
http://howtoinvestonline.blogspot.ca/2010/07/return-of-capital-separating-good-from.html
http://www.taxtips.ca/personaltax/investing/taxtreatment/mutualfunds.htm

For example buy 1000 units for $10 a unit. ACB is $10,000. 
Get paid three units which is alleged to be "RoC" of $30 (3 x $10). This means subtracting it from ACB = $10,000 - $30 = $9970

When selling CG = Proceeds - ACB - sell commission. As pointed out by AltaRed in post #5, the unit cost is held at a flat $10.
CG = (1003 x $10) - $9970 - $0 = $10030 - $9970 = $60.


AFAICT, the factors that result in no capital gain are that it is not RoC, there's no buy/sell commission and the unit price is held constant at $10 a unit.


Cheers


*PS*

The tax tips link is good ... though it does repeat the myth that RoC is not taxable when it is always taxable as a capital gain. The only question is whether it is reducing the ACB which defers the CG tax to the sale or whether the ACB becomes negative resulting in the RoC payment being reported as a CG on that particular year's tax return.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The example works fine for an actual case where there is ROC. In the case of TDB8150, there is no ROC at all, and there is no share appreciation since purchase at $10, nor depreciation in the disposition (sale of units at $10). So no cap gain/loss either and no entries on Schedule 3.


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

There is an earlier thread that explains it clearly and simply: http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...x-calculations?p=217419&viewfull=1#post217419

(Although note that post #5 states the unit value at $1, where with TDB8150 it is always $10, but otherwise the principle and calculations are the same.)

Item #5 of TD's Terms & Conditions here describes the payments as interest, not capital gains or return of capital.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

^^^

Weird ... when I read post #5 this morning, it listed the unit price as $10 as well as fixed ... maybe an update happened at some point?


Either way, good to have an independent source that highlights the "interest, not CG or RoC".


Cheers


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Eclectic12 said:


> ^^^
> 
> Weird ... when I read post #5 this morning, it listed the unit price as $10 as well as fixed ... maybe an update happened at some point?
> 
> ...


GreatLaker meant post #5 in the linked thread...not this one.


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## CrazyEights (May 17, 2016)

So in the case of the OP, because he received the T5008 as well, would he have to report the sale on both T5008 and schedule 3, or just one or the other? I ask, because i actually also got the same T5008 form for selling TD8150, but wasn't sure if i had to report it in both sections? seems a little much to be reporting in both sections.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

CrazyEights said:


> So in the case of the OP, because he received the T5008 as well, would he have to report the sale on both T5008 and schedule 3, or just one or the other? I ask, because i actually also got the same T5008 form for selling TD8150, but wasn't sure if i had to report it in both sections? seems a little much to be reporting in both sections.


You don't have to report it anywhere.

Also, what do you mean by "both sections"? Schedule 3 is to report capital gains on your tax return. T5008 is a form the bank gives you to help you fill out schedule 3. For any real (non-TDB8150) capital gains you just need to fill out schedule 3, using T5008 (or your trading summary) as a reference.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Agreed. I don't understand the comment 'in both sections'. The T5008 is for Schedule 3 only...and in the case of TDB8150, there is no cap gain or loss on the disposition...to nothing to include on Schedule 3.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

I believe most tax software offers the ability to enter T5008 information as well as other "tax slip" info. 
I ignore the T5008 inputs and report relevant data only to Schedule 3.
As we know, the T5008 lists the sale of high interest savings securities, even though they only have an interest income component to them.


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## CrazyEights (May 17, 2016)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> I believe most tax software offers the ability to enter T5008 information as well as other "tax slip" info.
> I ignore the T5008 inputs and report relevant data only to Schedule 3.
> As we know, the T5008 lists the sale of high interest savings securities, even though they only have an interest income component to them.


This answers my question and clarifies a lot. I guess i can ignore the portion of the T5008 with TDB8150 listed. I only say "both sections", simply because i thought whenever a T5008 was provided, you had to report it on the schedule 3 as you guys had suggested. But good to know that the T5008 is just as a reference for the schedule 3. Perhaps the form must have been provided to me from TD with TD8150 included because i had sold some portion of this High interest saving security the same year as another security.

But you all had indicated that because there was no capital gain/loss in it, the selling of TDB8150 looks like can be ignored on the schedule 3 or T5008.


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## InstantOats (Sep 6, 2014)

CrazyEights said:


> This answers my question and clarifies a lot. I guess i can ignore the portion of the T5008 with TDB8150 listed. I only say "both sections", simply because i thought whenever a T5008 was provided, you had to report it on the schedule 3 as you guys had suggested. But good to know that the T5008 is just as a reference for the schedule 3. Perhaps the form must have been provided to me from TD with TD8150 included because i had sold some portion of this High interest saving security the same year as another security.
> 
> But you all had indicated that because there was no capital gain/loss in it, the selling of TDB8150 looks like can be ignored on the schedule 3 or T5008.


From another forum, they suggest to input the info on Schedule 3 since you're selling a fund and supposedly they have heard CRA requesting additional info for disposition of interest bearing investment, ie GiC, etc. My T5008 only have sale of TDB8150, so to play it safe I did fill out Schedule 3 with cost and ACB equal so cap gain/loss = 0. I did delete the T5008 in Simpletax which autofill entered, instead manually added Schedule 3 to reflect the TDB8150 sale. Maybe I'm being paranoid :smile:


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

CrazyEights said:


> So in the case of the OP, because he received the T5008 as well, would he have to report the sale on both T5008 and schedule 3, or just one or the other?
> 
> I ask, because i actually also got the same T5008 form for selling TD8150, but wasn't sure if i had to report it in both sections? seems a little much to be reporting in both sections.


The T5008 "annual trading summary" I received last year had all sell and buy transactions for the year on it. This included the TDB8150 sales, which I did not include on Schedule 3, Part 3. I also received a T5 that included the TDB8150 interest which I did report. So far, no questions or followup from CRA.

This year the "annual trading summary" is not marked as being a T5008, which like previous years - includes all buys/sells for the year. A separate T5008 "Statements of Securities Transactions" that lists only the sells, including TDB8150 was also produced. My plan is to do the same as last year (i.e. skip schedule 3, part 3 and make sure T5 interest income is reported).


I will see how it goes.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

InstantOats said:


> From another forum, they suggest to input the info on Schedule 3 since you're selling a fund and supposedly they have heard CRA requesting additional info for disposition of interest bearing investment, ie GiC, etc.


Not sure why requests for more info on GIC's says anything about stock market traded HISA funds. 

I can understand why CRA would be asking for more info on GICs as I seem to run into many people who think the say five year GIC interest is only reported in year five, when the lump sum of capital plus five years worth of interest is paid to the investor. 

The proper way is to be report the year's worth of interest accrued in the current tax year, spreading out the interest over five tax years. 
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/ncm-tx/rtrn/cmpltng/rprtng-ncm/lns101-170/121/bnk-eng.html 

The down side is one has to fund the taxes without having been paid the interest yet while the upside is that the multiple year's worth of interest is not being taxed in one year.

Where there any posts regarding a HISA style MF fund instead of GICs?




InstantOats said:


> My T5008 only have sale of TDB8150, so to play it safe I did fill out Schedule 3 with cost and ACB equal so cap gain/loss = 0. I did delete the T5008 in Simpletax which autofill entered, instead manually added Schedule 3 to reflect the TDB8150 sale. Maybe I'm being paranoid :smile:


It should pretty much guarantee there are no questions later, unless there is some disconnect on the numbers or math.
At the same time, I have yet to see anyone post on CMF that they were asked about the missing Schedule 3, Part 3 entry for this type of investment.


Cheers


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

I suppose it would not hurt to report it on Item 3 of Schedule 3 which says:


> Publicly traded shares, mutual fund units, deferral of eligible small business corporation shares, and other shares
> *(Report capital gains (or losses) shown on T5*, T5013, T4PS, and T3 information slips on line 174 or line 176.)


There is no capital gain or loss on TDB8150 since the price is fixed at $10 so it seems unnecessary.

[sarcasm]But I guess there might be some under-worked CRA rep that would reject a return because $0 was not put in the box for the capital gain that was not received.[/sarcasm]:chargrined:


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

GreatLaker said:


> I suppose it would not hurt to report it on Item 3 of Schedule 3 which says:
> 
> 
> There is no capital gain or loss on TDB8150 since the price is fixed at $10 so it seems unnecessary.
> ...


Just for the record, I've never done that with all the buys and sells I have done on ISA type transactions and never been questioned.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Eclectic12 said:


> ... I can understand why CRA would be asking for more info on GICs as I seem to run into many people who think the say five year GIC interest is only reported in year five, when the lump sum of capital plus five years worth of interest is paid to the investor.
> The proper way is to be report the year's worth of interest accrued in the current tax year, spreading out the interest over five tax years.
> http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/ncm-tx/rtrn/cmpltng/rprtng-ncm/lns101-170/121/bnk-eng.html


On this subject, TDDI began reporting accrued interest on strip bonds in our unregistered account and issuing a T5 (for Sched 4 part II) in the 2015 tax year. Prior to this, we reported it without any supporting T5 or reporting from TDDI. 
The change results in a very wonky activity statement in Jan with multiple roc debit/accrued int credit entries.
I'm not sure if compound int GIC's in such an account were/are being handled in the same way.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Compound GICs with Scotia iTrade are being handled the same way. Ex had one of these and I've been reporting the annual accrual per the T5.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

AltaRed said:


> Just for the record, I've never done that with all the buys and sells I have done on ISA type transactions and never been questioned.


That's because they don't expect it to be reported on schedule 3. The only reason it's present on the T5008 is because it's a sale of a security. 

The only reporting is on the T5 slip of your tax program on box 13: Interest from Canadian Sources.

I suspect if a CRA rep saw it entered on schedule 3 they would just shake their head at the silliness.

ltr


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> Compound GICs with Scotia iTrade are being handled the same way. Ex had one of these and I've been reporting the annual accrual per the T5.


Automatic reporting through the T5 form should mean despite being unaware of the GIC tax implications, it is all being taken care of (unless the T5 is missed :biggrin: ).




like_to_retire said:


> ... I suspect if a CRA rep saw it entered on schedule 3 they would just shake their head at the silliness.


Maybe ... AFAICT, they can't complain about is as I have yet to see an official note that it can be skipped.


Cheers


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Eclectic12 said:


> Maybe ... AFAICT, they can't complain about is as I have yet to see an official note that it can be skipped.


I am not aware of an official note either. An ambitious person who wants to search https://taxinterpretations.com/ might find something.

However, just so you know. I've not been reporting ISA CAD purchases and sales for at least 7-8 years. Same with CAD Money Market mutual funds before that when I used them. I suspect CRA assessors are very familiar with them and CRA computers may automatically overlook them. Never been questioned. Note: It is a different story with USD ISAs and MMFs where a forex change may result in a cap gain or loss.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> A T5 and a T5008 are for completely different things. T5s are issued for investment income (Schedule 4) and not cap gains from an asset sale. A T5008 is issued is there has been an asset sale and the data goes on Schedule 3.


Agreed. Always complete the T5008 with any software tax filing. Then you determine capital gains (or losses) from there, and complete required Schedules.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Further to reporting T5008 info in your tax software or just using the info to complete the required Schedule 3:

_*Completing your income tax and benefit return - T5008 Statement of Securities Transactions*
This information slip does not have to be attached to your income tax return, but you have to keep it in case the CRA requests it. 
This information slip reports the amount paid or credited to you for securities you disposed of or redeemed during the year indicated. These transactions may be on account of income or capital...
If you are an individual having to file a T1 return, report transactions on account of capital on Schedule 3...
Box 20 – The amount in box 20 may or may not reflect your adjusted cost base (ACB) for the purpose of determining the gain or loss from the disposition of the security. You are required to make the adjustments, as needed, to the amount indicated in box 20, at the time of determining and reporting your gain or loss from the disposition._
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/t5008/t5008-16e.pdf

_*Can I use the Capital Gains & Losses section instead?*
If you prefer you can report your gain/loss/investment income in the Capitals Gains & Losses and/or Investment Income section (as the case may be). For capital transactions in particular, many users find it much easier to use the Capital Gains & Losses section than the T5008 section. From a NETFILE perspective there is no difference; exactly the same information will be transmitted to the CRA regardless of where you report it. Just be sure not to report dispositions in both sections._
https://help.simpletax.ca/questions/t5008-slip

_*How to report T5008 slip?*
T5008 slip is not used directly in tax return. you need to add form Schedule 3 in your tax return, and enter each stock/mutual fund transaction into an entry of field 131/132._
https://www.mytaxexpress.com/faq/index.php?action=artikel&cat=8&id=48&artlang=en


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Good references. I've found T5008 typically does not have any ACB. I enter the T5008 information even you don't have to; CRA has that on file.


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

I have received Trading Summary for TDB8150 and I didn't sell any TDB8150 in 2016. As a result, the Proceeds section is empty. My understanding is that I don't need to report this trading summary other than the interest I received from TD. Although I have not received any T5 from TD, I have found that interest amount when I used the CRA auto fill option.

I also received Summary of Trust Income (T3) as well as Statement of Trust Income Allocations and Designations- T3. Both have the same info and when I used Auto Fill option, Studio Tax has picked up the info which is similar to Statement of Trust Income Allocations and Designations- T3. 

I was wondering why I need Summary of Trust Income (T3) and Statement of Trust Income Allocations and Designations- T3 when both have the same info.


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

How do I delete this post?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> Agreed. I don't understand the comment 'in both sections'. The T5008 is for Schedule 3 only...and in the case of TDB8150, there is no cap gain or loss on the disposition...to nothing to include on Schedule 3.


I think all this confusion is coming from those who think TDB8150 (and other ISAs) are mutual funds. These are not mutual funds and they don't go on Schedule 3.

They are bank deposits, so all you're dealing with is interest income, which is reported in T5 slips anyway. See also: https://ads.scotiabank.com/frequently-asked-questions

TDB8150 is no more complex to report than a savings account at any bank is.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

As well, I don't think using tax software's autofill feature to pull T5008 data from the CRA into your tax form is a good idea - too much risk of unnecesary, incomplete or incorrect handling of the data. Complete Schedule 3 manually.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I agree, autofill might be problematic.

There were 3 securities that I only caught thanks to my manual records, that don't even appear in T5008. These were transfers out of the TFSA and their cost base was the value at time of transfer. They didn't show up on any T5008 or the transaction summaries from the brokerage.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Just spent an hour on the CRA website capturing my T5008 and other slip info. I'd forgotten what an utter piece of sh^t My Account website it is. A true embarrassment. I would never admit to having been involved in its design or development. Talk about a waste of tax payer dollars. 

Slow, clunky, poorly designed. Half the time you click the 'previous' screen button and nothing happens so you have to go back 'home' and start again; you have to enter the tax year each time you want to view a new slip and then wait while the screen refreshes before then choosing the tax slip type; there is no capability to download or save to pdf, so I print the screen to CutePDF Writer to create a pdf, but of course you only want to print page 2 each time because pages 1 and 3 are blank except for a bit of header-footer garbage. I could go on and on.

To top it off, it is hard to feel confident that a site this poor is safe from hackers. Think of it, everything including your personal and banking details are there. Some day I fear we'll be sorry for its existence.

P.S. I have a spousal RRSP contribution slip recieved by mail from TD Waterhouse but it does not appear on either my or my spouse's 'My Account'. I wonder if that is normally the case?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I didn't have any problems with it. I used the 'previous' button on their web site to keep going back to the main T5008 listing (not the browser button). And if I want to save a copy of the screen, just use Chrome's print function which can save PDF. Going through 15 entries of T5008 took me less than 5 minutes.

But this info entirely duplicates what the brokerages already sent me in their T5008s so I don't see the point of grabbing copies from CRA. Either way, you have to make sense of the data yourself. For example on a few of my stock trades where there were multiple fills, there are separate T5008 entries shown (e.g. sell 500 shares filled as 300 shares and then another 200 shares).

This won't make sense if you automatically enter it into tax software; have to figure out all your ACB and capital gain/loss on your own. TD's T5008 also does not include commission in the sale/proceeds, whereas iTrade's does. Can't use the information verbatim, I don't think.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> I didn't have any problems with it...


I'm using Firefox, print is in upper right drop-down but pretty well the same I think. Mine did hang when clicking their previous button, it was very frustrating. Oh well, the rant at the time helped me feel better.

I agree with all your points about duplication, breakdown of sell orders, autofill, acb, etc. But I've still become a convert of making sure I have everything the CRA has before I start our taxes. The easiest way to do that is create a 'from CRA' folder and save it for later referral.
I found for example that they have my five T3 reporting cos but TDDI has only made three available so far. Presumably the last two will show up in their edocs shortly.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> I think all this confusion is coming from those who think TDB8150 (and other ISAs) are mutual funds. These are not mutual funds and they don't go on Schedule 3 ...


For some ... probably.

In my case, as I knew it was a savings account - the confusion was why it was showing up at all on the T5008 ... but I learned to ignore it. :biggrin:
I simply report the interest for the T5 slip I didn't get as I am under the minimum for a T5 form to be gereated.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> ... There were 3 securities that I only caught thanks to my manual records, that don't even appear in T5008.
> These were transfers out of the TFSA and their cost base was the value at time of transfer. They didn't show up on any T5008 or the transaction summaries from the brokerage.


??? ... the T5008 is for taxable events. Why on earth would one expect a non-taxable event on it?

My withdrawal of cash from a TFSA has to be manually added back as contribution room the following year but I don't expect that to show up on taxable form either.
(I get it from the TFSA account monthly detail line items ... which is where I'd expect the transfer out value to be for the in-kind withdrawal.)


Cheers


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I think TDDI is making a mistake by adding the ISA to the T5008. It wouldn't be the first time a broker screwed up the T5008.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> I think TDDI is making a mistake by adding the ISA to the T5008. It wouldn't be the first time a broker screwed up the T5008.


??? ... other threads have other brokers doing the same so it does not appear to be TDDI specific.


Personally, I suspect it's the cost to adjust the code to track the HISA's to filter them out ... it likely would cut into bank profits. :biggrin:



Cheers


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

I think the issue is our assumption of what the T5008 is supposed to contain. It is not restricted to Schedule 3 type events.

The CRA describes thus: _Traders or dealers in securities have to file a T5008 information return to report purchases of securities as principal for their own account, and sales of securities they make as an agent or nominee, for any vendor. Issuers of securities and their agents or nominees use this information return to report redemptions, acquisitions, or cancellations of securities. 
You have to report all security transactions falling under any section of the Income Tax Act not specifically excluded under subsection 230(3) of the Income Tax Regulations, even if no tax arises as a result of the transaction. _

In addition to 'ISA' (TDB8150 investment savings acc), my T5008 shows matured strip bond values. They have no capital gain/loss component, only interest that has been reported on an accrued basis.

Finally did our taxes yesterday. I continue to ignore the T5008 form in my tax software and just complete Schedule 3.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Interesting, maybe I have made some wrong assumptions about T5008.

I generally ignore it as well. In all these years, my tax returns have never depended it on because my own records are better. I just do a quick check to make sure that everything on the T5008 (of any importance) is covered by my own capital gain/loss listing.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I always compare the data on the T5008 against my own records for accuracy. All CRA has is what is reported on the T5008.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

+1 ... if I skipped the comparison to the T5008, I would lose out on the chance to find issues.

My numbers matching the broker's T5008 numbers (for what is there) is always a good confirmation.


Cheers


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