# Changes to TD Direct Investing accounts



## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

I just received this notice in the mail about coming changes (Sept) to TD DI accounts.

"Asset transfers to a related 3rd party TD DI account" currently free to $15 per request

I can't get my head around related 3rd party. Are they saying they'll now charge to transfer between TDCT and TDDI?


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

Perhaps something like a TDHW CAD cash account to TFSA?

Just guessing


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

^^^^

If you mean a TDW cash account to a TDW TFSA - that's all under the same roof so I'm not seeing a third party, related or otherwise. 

I'd also question whether a TDW cash account to a TD CT TFSA is also a related 3rd party.


Cheers

Cheers


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

Just to follow-up - got a response from TDWH:

"A related third party TD Direct Investing account is an account that is owned by an immediate family member or a corporate account where the client owns 100% of the corporation (either individually or with his immediate family). 

Transfers between a client’s trading account and an account owned by a related third party would be impacted. Transfers between a client’s trading account and bank accounts are not impacted."


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

^^^^^

... interesting.

Thanks for posting an update.


Cheers


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

This ticks me off. What happens when you're dealing with a deceased family members account? The estate departments are already such a huge pain to deal with. 


When you're parent dies and you try and transfer their assets to your account, they now ding you. Is it $15 per stock, or $15 per "request". Not exactly clear
If you get them to sell the assets on your behalf, and they charge you the brokerage rate. Which can be a lot of money, and can only be done at the market price, no limits allowed.
And the don't provide any way to directly access the account and sell them yourself at the Discount brokerage rates ($9.99)
Just went through this. I can honestly say I HATE dealing with the estate departments at all Financial Institutions.

Note to self: only die with cash in your bank account, no stocks


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

& wuz u wanting an obsolete-style printed statement in hard copy?

that'll be $2 per month, please, or a multiple of $2 per month depending upon how many account root-numbers you have among your household members.

don't like the TD's FX fees? if u complain, chances are good that they'll raise em!

oh, & no USD rrsp in 2013. This is not turning out to be the big green's finest summer.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Also if you try to buy something for your TFSA and the cash is not in the account, they reject the order with no notice. This just happened to me. Trying to buy a $25k convertible from Superior Plus. When I followed up, they apologized but sorry the offering is now full subscribed. The offer was placed on July 2 and the settlement is not until July 22. Tell me you have allocated it and I will make sure the money is there!

As it happens, the offering was oversubscribed so it was just as well. But they duck behind their computers whenever good judgement and a phone call would do.


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> & wuz u wanting an obsolete-style printed statement in hard copy?
> 
> that'll be $2 per month, please, or a multiple of $2 per month depending upon how many account root-numbers you have among your household members.


If it wasn't for printed statements, how can the executors of an estate get up to date info on the holdings? Once TDWH is notified, you can no longer access online (even if you knew how) and the estate dept is almost useless.

Thanks TDWH (And all the other ones charging for paper statements.)


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

BMO offers US$ RRSPs, but you can't do forex outside of business hours.

I've asked what their solution is for employed clients, they haven't responded yet...


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> oh, & no USD rrsp in 2013. This is not turning out to be the big green's finest summer.


Is this official? Has TD now postponed both the USD TFSA & RSP accounts for sometime in 2014?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Xoron said:


> If it wasn't for printed statements, how can the executors of an estate get up to date info on the holdings? Once TDWH is notified, you can no longer access online (even if you knew how) and the estate dept is almost useless.
> 
> Thanks TDWH (And all the other ones charging for paper statements.)


Sounds like a justification for printing out all accounts at year-end and storing them in the safe deposit box. What is really important is the account numbers and institutions, not the contents. In fact it could be an addendum to the will updated whenever and change occurs.

When my brother died, he had that addendum written out in his house. The reason I suggest the safe deposit box is that the death could have been from a fire or flood in his house.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Synergy said:


> Is this official? Has TD now postponed both the USD TFSA & RSP accounts for sometime in 2014?



high-ranking team manager told me this in may 2013. Apparently the word came straight from upper management levels in toronto. Nothing to be expected in 2013.

i've noticed that frontline representatives do not want to discuss, instead they fall silent. They have probably been instructed to fall silent.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Xoron said:


> If it wasn't for printed statements, how can the executors of an estate get up to date info on the holdings? Once TDWH is notified, you can no longer access online (even if you knew how) and the estate dept is almost useless.
> 
> Thanks TDWH (And all the other ones charging for paper statements.)



xoron it just occurred to me ... did you not mention that buying/selling/managing estate securities has to be done via telephone order at higher commish? did you not mention that there is zero online estate capability for executors?

i ask because one of the irrationalities in the new $2 per month statement printing fee is that it applies *only* to accounts that use the web. 

other accounts that still trade strictly by live phone order or by the telemax phone system will continue to receive printed statements with no fee. Surely an estate account (no web capability) would fall into this category?


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> xoron it just occurred to me ... did you not mention that buying/selling/managing estate securities has to be done via telephone order at higher commish? did you not mention that there is zero online estate capability for executors?
> 
> i ask because one of the irrationalities in the new $2 per month statement printing fee is that it applies *only* to accounts that use the web.


So long story short, my Father in law had accounts at TD and RBC. With RBC DI, they would only:
1. Sell at market, and pay the full commission rate (a lot of $$$ on 1000's of shares of penny stocks). This had to be done in writing, to the estate department and they'd get to selling when they felt like it. Absolutely no control of execution price or time. 
OR
2. Transfer to an estate account (Takes quite a while, you need a probated will), during which time the value of those stocks can swing wildly.

With TDWH, we didn't even try to get them to sell the stocks, wasn't worth it. Essentially had to transfer the stocks to my wife's account (after the will was probabted). Now if the $15 applies to the account transfer request, then I can eat that cost. If it is $15 per stock, then that cost is a little more difficult to swallow. And my FIL had quite a few low value stocks (he'd been trading since the .com bust) and never bothered to clean out the old worthless shares.

So you can see where my frustration would come from. $15 to transfer an essentially worthless stock, then another $10 to get rid of it. And then pay another $2 so you have the privileged of getting the portfolio value monthly. 

And I'm not talking about a 7 figure account balance here. But it was significant enough to warrant care, but small enough that all these fees hurt what ends up being available to distribute to the beneficiaries. I can only image how much trouble this would be for people who know nothing about investing and the right questions to ask. And I'll say it again, most of the estate department(s) that I've dealt with are not all that helpful.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

kcowan said:


> Sounds like a justification for printing out all accounts at year-end and storing them in the safe deposit box. What is really important is the account numbers and institutions, not the contents. In fact it could be an addendum to the will updated whenever and change occurs.
> 
> When my brother died, he had that addendum written out in his house. The reason I suggest the safe deposit box is that the death could have been from a fire or flood in his house.


Why not just PDF electronic copies stored on a USB stick? There is no real justification for storing actual paper any more, just the capability to print if necessary. Like your bro did, I have a paper Word doc in an Estate file in my desk (and electronically) that is kept up to date with all the institutions and account numbers, etc.


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

Anyone can help me determine if the following transaction would be dinged a 15$ fee:

1234 Inc. have a TD brokerage account
1234 Inc. have a TD banking account

Transfer 1000$ from 1234 Inc. TD banking account to 1234 Inc. TD brokerage account


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

larry81 said:


> Anyone can help me determine if the following transaction would be dinged a 15$ fee:
> 
> 1234 Inc. have a TD brokerage account
> 1234 Inc. have a TD banking account
> ...


I would say no fee. You are transferring $$ from 1234 to 1234 - no third party involved. If 1234 to your personal account, then yes.


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## warp (Sep 4, 2010)

I can say that the service at BMO, where we have our accounts, has always been top-notch.

They are courteous, and always helpful.......(at least with me)

I used to deal with TD , before there were Do-it-yourself accounts.....and was not happy.

One problem is that all the choices have some good qualities, and features you might like, while all of them also lack something that another offers. Can't seem to get everything at any one broker.

Still I can recommend BMO Investorline without hesitation. In fact if you PM me, I will give anyone the number of a great BMO employee/Financial Planner who will take care of anything related to moving to BMO, or opening a BMO account.


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

Last week i received a mass mail by a local TDWH rep basicly saying:



> HELLO THERE, ANYONE WANT TO "UPGRADE" TO A MARGIN ACCOUNT !? CALL ME !!! BYE BYE


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

On a side note, has anyone else had the webroker page freeze on them this week. It goes to the main webroker page, but then freezes when I select anything.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

"Is this official? Has TD now postponed both the USD TFSA & RSP accounts for sometime in 2014?"

For real? I was waiting for this!

This is pissing me off.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

My Own Advisor said:


> "Is this official? Has TD now postponed both the USD TFSA & RSP accounts for sometime in 2014?"
> 
> This is pissing me off.




i've been mentioning this for a while now in cmf forum.

word of no-USD-rrsp came this past may from a hi-level PA manager. He was informed by toronto-based green nobs. Officially, the promised spring 2013 debut of USD rrsp has been delayed once again by build glitches. Nothing is expected for the rest of 2013.

i've suggested to em that TDDI should now give serious thought to exchanging US dividends paid into rrsps, rrifs & liras at rates that are close to bank of canada noon rates. Not surprisingly the suggestion has been ignored!

i'm also informed that lo-level green nobs are preparing to rebut the claims frequently made in this forum - by many posters including CC himself - that the big green is charging FX fees on several different types of US dividends. In certain cases, even double-dipping & charging FX fees twice upon the same US DRIP dividend. 

as we all know, these claims have been well documented in cmf forum. Several posters have even provided numerical analyses of FX spread rates that they have personally been charged on US dividends in tddi accounts. Nevertheless, the big green is said to be presently preparing rebuttals & denials.

i for one am keeping in mind that TDDI is only one among the majority of canadian brokers who, as best they can, whenever they can, are opportunistically charging concealed FX fees. It's not just Teddy that is practicing these surreptitious acts. Alas, with only a few exceptions, all canadian brokers are so practicing.

the exceptions are few but extremely interesting imho. They are the new gold standard bearers. If we in this forum toil onwards, is it possible that we might succeed in convincing the entire canadian brokerage industry to improve itself in similar fashion?

one exception has recently been uncovered by cmf member m3s, who used to have another username here. The exception is Questrade, which has paid m3s one potash dividend in rrsp that was exchanged into CAD at bank of canada rate for the record day. It is impossible to do better than BOC rate. It's the gold standard. Thank you for your research, m3s!

the other exception are some licensed representatives at BMO investorline, who are taking the trouble to caution clients how they must instruct bmo to place US stocks - also USD dividend paying canadian stocks - in the US side of all accounts chez BMO, even including their famous USD rrsp. This is because the default locator for all stocks, including US stocks, will be the canadian side of the account. This is just a system thing, we all know about system things.

i've noticed that some BMO agents are troubling to warn clients that they might have to deliberately disrupt the default locator in order to get the right stocks over to the US side of an account. In any event BMO clients do have to check their accounts to make sure which currency side of their accounts holds each stock (don't worry, u only have to check once)

i was grateful to the bmo agent who recently explained this to me - he is not the first one who did so - & i asked him to please speak to his team manager about this & to please make sure that all their personnel are trained to care for clients with the same thoughtful detail. I mentioned how much clients these days are appreciating this transparency & this honesty.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Thanks humble.

Just very frustrated. I've been holding on, but I'm not sure if I should anyhow. I like DRIPping my US stocks but it is costing me money. Needless to say, I don't like that. I guess the only alternative I have is to not DRIP any U.S. holdings, get the money, and make purchases when cash amount hits a decent threshold. Then, TDW gets my $9.99.

What's worse?

Getting losing ~2% on fx fees or paying about $10 every 2 months? Both have some pain associated with them.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

My Own Advisor said:


> Just very frustrated ... I like DRIPping my US stocks but it is costing me money. Needless to say, I don't like that. I guess the only alternative I have is to not DRIP any U.S. holdings, get the money, and make purchases when cash amount hits a decent threshold. Then, TDW gets my $9.99.
> 
> What's worse?
> 
> Getting losing ~2% on fx fees or paying about $10 every 2 months? Both have some pain associated with them.




on double-dipping any US dividends, one would be paying close to 3% round trip, as CC recently observed when he conducted his impromptu one-day broker survey (did u see it? we were all asked to obtain our brokers' spread rates on a particular morning & post em up here.)

in came rates for tddi formerly tdw, rbc ds, scotia itrade & bmo. They were, perhaps not surprisingly, similar. RBC appeared to offer the best rates but always-accurate sampson, who was the rbc reporter, had a couple of nano-details that he wanted to check further.

i do believe that one can suggest to one's broker that USD dividends paid into rrsps, rrifs & liras should be converted into canadian at close to bank of canada rates. As Questrade is already doing, as m3s has shown us (for various reasons i think the Questrade approach is going to be permanent or at least semi-permanent, yay m3s).

i do believe one can communicate to one's broker that *not* FXing dividends paid into clients' retirement accounts is simply the good-business-practice, ethical, canadian thing to do.

i myself have finally lost patience with the ISM-stumped brokers, who are the majority. I've written about the ISM challenge countless times. How the ISM legacy mainframe, which is leased from IBM, is a flawless workhouse but it has turned out to be impossibly difficult for building canadian rrsps. I've explained about this feature, asked in the past for patience with the ISM brokers.

but recently i've come to believe that all these brokers - including tddi - should now develop alternative solutions. One solution would be to curtail the rampant FXing of different kinds of USD dividends, at least in retirement accounts.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Yeah, just re-read the posts, thanks humble. 

Just frustrating...

I can try and lobby for this, "suggest to one's broker that USD dividends paid into rrsps, rrifs & liras should be converted into canadian at close to bank of canada rates" but no guarantees they'll actually do it. Worth a try...email and phone calls coming soon.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

wonderful, advisor.

not only no guarantees, but i'd say almost no chance of success!

still, a beginning must be begun somewhere. If enuf clients keep on suggesting, some tiny cluelet about what clients are truly concerned with might possibly get through to the big nobs.

just some teensy cluelet that perhaps they should stop fiddling all their new fees while Rome burns ...


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> RBC appeared to offer the best rates


Not that it matters for the USD dividends since they allow US funds to be held anyway.

It obviously depends on account size and fees, but anyone with $50k of US dividend stocks is probably best suited just opening a new account at BMO or RBC and waiting until the big green eventually catches up.

$50,000 US dividend stock portfolio yielding 4% = $2,000, 3% return trip FX fee = $60 / year. Not a tonne, definitely an annoyance, and I know how cheap we CMF'ers are with the fees. Hundreds of dollars after a few years.


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## fersure (Apr 19, 2009)

Humble_pie,
Thanks for your clear explanation for all the challenges with Big Green. I am having similar challenges with TDW (lack of a US$ RRSP/TFSA, still doesn't have no fee etfs) and now significant delays in distributions appearing in my accounts. TDW is getting really hard to love.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

fersure said:


> Humble_pie,
> Thanks for your clear explanation for all the challenges with Big Green. I am having similar challenges with TDW (lack of a US$ RRSP/TFSA, still doesn't have no fee etfs) and now significant delays in distributions appearing in my accounts. TDW is getting really hard to love.


BMO allows USD, but they only allow forex during business hours. I asked about their solution for employed clients and so far no response.
Scotiabank doesn't have USD, but for a fee they'll give you a "no/low spread" exchange rate.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> BMO allows USD, but they only allow forex during business hours



now i'm curious - what kind of "forex" does bmo allow, please?

i have a bmo account & to best of my knowledge they don't offer forex trading.

there is currency arbitrage aka gambit trading & this works exceptionally well on bmo website, also roybank website. However, at every broker, gambit trades require that both markets for the interlisted carrier stock be open. Toronto on one hand. Plus the appropriate US market on the other hand.

gambit trading is not forex trading, it's arbing a stock between 2 different markets ...


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## BigMFfan (Feb 23, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> now i'm curious - what kind of "forex" does bmo allow, please?
> 
> i have a bmo account & to best of my knowledge they don't offer forex trading.
> 
> ...


BMOIL allows you to buy/sell US/CDN dollars at the "market rate" (updated a few times a day) +/- 1.6 points -- i.e., if the "market rate" is 1.02 CDN to 1 USD, you can buy USD for 1.036 -- much better to do the Gambit than this -- unless you want to covert only a small amount of money.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

BigMFfan said:


> BMOIL allows you to buy/sell US/CDN dollars at the "market rate" (updated a few times a day) +/- 1.6 points -- i.e., if the "market rate" is 1.02 CDN to 1 USD, you can buy USD for 1.036 -- much better to do the Gambit than this -- unless you want to covert only a small amount of money.



definitely not forex trading ... i believe it's 160 basis pts so not attractive at all ... also one would have to know what their idea of "market" is ... is this bank of canada rate or XE.com (which would be very close to, or the same as, BOC rate) ... or is this some internal bank of montreal treasury floor "market" exchange rate ...


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## warp (Sep 4, 2010)

From my understanding BMO will not let you drip US stocks...while RBC, ( where I used to also have accounts) , will.

This goes back to my earlier comment about each brokerage having some things you want, while not having other things you may want, but which are avaliable at another broker, who is missing another feature you want. You can't seem to get everything that is good and desireable in one place.


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## BigMFfan (Feb 23, 2013)

warp said:


> *From my understanding BMO will not let you drip US stocks*...while RBC, ( where I used to also have accounts), will.


This is true, and a sore point with me....


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## BigMFfan (Feb 23, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> definitely not forex trading ... *i believe it's 160 basis pts *so not attractive at all ... also one would have to know what their idea of "market" is ... is this bank of canada rate or XE.com (which would be very close to, or the same as, BOC rate) ... or is this some internal bank of montreal treasury floor "market" exchange rate ...


Thanks re. the correct way to express this, I wasn't sure. I'm also not sure what the rate is that BMO uses as its base. I just know you pay about 160 basis points more than the CAD/USD rate they show on their _Markets Today - Real Time Market Watch _table. When you click the link in that table, it brings you to something called _Canadian Dollar per US Dollar (XDC: Index Quote)_.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

TD has lost most of our business now and we have one account left to transfer. . I am very happy with Questrade and their service has improved too. Proper USD accounts can hold USD cash, free ETF buying, $4.95 trade, mobile app, live chat, love it. I don't even care for the charts and advanced platforms. They have a simple platform just for basic trading. Perfect for our needs. Drips show up next day, usually no delays with account activity. 

We even got a free IPAD for switching and they covered the transfer out fees so far.. I think they brought that promo back too.


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