# Border to Open Aug 9th



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Canada will finally open its borders, first to Americans, beginning August 9 | CNN


The long wait will soon be over for foreigners who have been banned from entering Canada for nearly 16 months.




www.cnn.com





Seems to be a bit premature considering what is now starting to happen in the USA with the variants. Even Wall St is concerned, it seems!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

agent99 said:


> Canada will finally open its borders, first to Americans, beginning August 9 | CNN
> 
> 
> The long wait will soon be over for foreigners who have been banned from entering Canada for nearly 16 months.
> ...


From this article is unclear if Canadians will be allowed to cross border in cars to US


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

The USA have not opened their border - yet. WH says it will open when their health people deem it to be safe to open.

Listening to CNN. Apparently a 145% increase in cases in USA, mainly due to the Delta variant, it just leaves me cold when I read we are opening. Albeit with fairly strict requirements. (Fully vaccinated and a recent negative test)

Can't imagine why Trudeau & co are doing this at this time.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

agent99 said:


> ...
> 
> Can't imagine why Trudeau & co are doing this at this time.


Business pressure. It's been going on since the first lockdown and travel advisory.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

August 9th is far enough away to judge if it is prudent at the time.

If the US continues on it's current trajectory, I doubt we will open the border.

There is also an undercurrent developing in the US where doctors are weary of having to treat those who refuse vaccinations.

They are also having a difficult time staffing hospitals as people are quitting or taking time off for stress.

A 4th wave could be worse than the others simply because everyone is worn out.

Let's hope the vaccines prove highly effective against the worst symptoms at least.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Should have never been closed in the first place. Get vaxxed, stop wringing your hands.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

⬆⬆⬆


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

Vaccines work. Time to open up. They are free and widely available here and in the US.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

agent99 said:


> Listening to CNN. Apparently a 145% increase in cases in USA, mainly due to the Delta variant, it just leaves me cold when I read we are opening. Albeit with fairly strict requirements. (Fully vaccinated and a recent negative test)
> 
> Can't imagine why Trudeau & co are doing this at this time.


I don't get it either. Seems like a very bad idea to me.

US cases are trending higher and they might start getting out of control, just like the UK is now experiencing. Generally speaking COVID rates are higher in the US than in Canada. Once we open the border, we're going to be importing more active cases into the country.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Tostig said:


> Business pressure. It's been going on since the first lockdown and travel advisory.


Exactly. This is corporate lobbying. It results in politicians making decisions in the best interests for businesses, rather than the public who they serve.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

doctrine said:


> Vaccines work. Time to open up. They are free and widely available here and in the US.


They do work, but are not 100% effective. Quite a number of cases of infections of those with two doses are showing up. Rare at the moment but partly because one can be infected, but have no symptoms. Yet still carry the virus. 
Right now, the vaccine clinics on both sides of border are empty. Large numbers of Americans (and some Canadians) refuse to get vaccinated. CNN covered this this evening. Many reasons: Ideology, religion, mistrust of science, poor experience with health system (mostly among black population), etc etc.
Less than 50% of Americans are fully vaccinated. Canada percentage is slightly higher. We were slow to start, but far more Canadians wanted to get vaccinated. Just think, about a month ago we were complaining about the delay in getting our second doses!
I saw nothing about what type of proof of vaccination Americans will be required to provide. Border agents will now also have to be Covid police. They need something concrete to go by.

PS: I actually WANT the border to be open. In past we have spent over 25% of the year in the USA. However, I want it to be safe to go back. But sadly, I don't see that happening any time soon.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

agent99 said:


> They do work, but are not 100% effective. Quite a number of cases of infections of those with two doses are showing up. Rare at the moment but partly because one can be infected, but have no symptoms. Yet still carry the virus.
> Right now, the vaccine clinics on both sides of border are empty. Large numbers of Americans (and some Canadians) refuse to get vaccinated. CNN covered this this evening. Many reasons: Ideology, religion, mistrust of science, poor experience with health system (mostly among black population), etc etc.
> Less than 50% of Americans are fully vaccinated. Canada percentage is slightly higher. We were slow to start, but far more Canadians wanted to get vaccinated. Just think, about a month ago we were complaining about the delay in getting our second doses!
> I saw nothing about what type of proof of vaccination Americans will be required to provide. Border agents will now also have to be Covid police. They need something concrete to go by.
> ...


Did anyone say they were 100% effective? They are far more than effective enough to stop mass death and hospitals from being overwhelmed even against the nastiest variants. I feel bad for anyone vaccinated who gets ill or sick from COVID because of the actions of selfish people who are not vaccinating. They will be punished though because vaccine passports are a thing and they can sit home and rot or be inconvenienced while other people get on with their lives. They are free and you can get a first shot anywhere in North America now by walking into clinics in almost every region, and 2nd shots in many places now too. Everyone I know in my family, friend, and work environment are vaccinated and we fully intend on living normal lives as such. I don't like the concept of vaccine passports for the record, but blame those who won't vaccinate for them. Or choose to live in lockdown land. Those are your options, because the government is in no rush to remove them and I don't blame them given the delta outbreaks.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

agent99 said:


> They do work, but are not 100% effective.


They never be 100% effective , no vaccine is 100% effective... another option to live forever in lockdown


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

doctrine said:


> Did anyone say they were 100% effective? They are far more than effective enough to stop mass death and hospitals from being overwhelmed even against the nastiest variants.


Enough to stop hospitals from being overwhelmed? We don't know. That's a huge leap. We really don't know how effective they will be against newer variants. Also, until now, everyone was being very cautious, wearing masks, and not in high risk settings. Going forward, people are going to be spreading the virus to each other much more readily... because people's behaviour has changed!

Caution would be prudent, especially since new variants can pop up any time, and we really don't know how solid the vaccines under these conditions where everyone is engaging in high risk activities again. We are in uncharted territory.

I have no problem with Canada opening up domestically, but now opening international is an unnecessary and dangerous wildcard to add on top of this.

The correct thing to do would be to proceed with domestic re-opening, *see how that goes for a few months* and confirm that our hospitalizations aren't running away, and then gradually re-open international travel.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

We'll see the results in hindsight and by that time abit too late. Oh well.

It's interesting to see our borders are being opened to the Americans and yet the Americans are not reciprocating according to the article(s) above and below. That may be a good thing. All the reasons for "Canadians" to vacation and shop at home !!!!

Fully vaxxed U.S. citizens can enter Canada Aug. 9, rest of world Sept. 7



> _WASHINGTON - Fully vaccinated U.S. citizens and permanent residents will be allowed into Canada as of Aug. 9, joined by the rest of the world Sept. 7, federal officials announced Monday as the country prepares to lower border barriers that were erected to limit the spread of COVID-19.
> 
> *However, the United States is not currently planning to reciprocate by easing travel restrictions on would-be Canadian visitors hoping to go south of the border.
> 
> ...


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

doctrine said:


> Or choose to live in lockdown land. Those are your options, because the government is in no rush to remove them and I don't blame them given the delta outbreaks.


Don't know who you are preaching to here or why. This is about us allowing Americans into Canada when they have ever increasing new outbreaks of Covid. Preach to them, not us.


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## Kilbarry20 (Aug 19, 2020)

“The long wait will soon be over for foreigners who have been banned from entering Canada for nearly 16 months.”

This is a highly misleading headline. What is missing are the attendant conditions to enter. That is, what American family is going to cross to see Niagara Falls and have a snack, a Beer, go to the Casino for a day... at an additional cost of $400 per person for 2 tests?

And vice versa for Canucks going to fill their face with Chicken Wings?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOBODY!

There is no significant change here- whatsoever! A completely false announcement.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^


> This is a highly misleading headline. ...


 ... not quite, it would depend who is reading it. For some, it's status quo. And there would be some Canucks (likely a minority) who can't wait to will their face with Chicken Wings! And this urge for those wings was like months ago, not just now with this headline.

Plus Americans don't mind spending $400 (drop in the bucket) to do all the above + spread (or share) their love (aka virus) for us Canucks.


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## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

It is strange that the Americans are not reciprocating with opening the land border since it was them doing the bitching and complaining about Canada dragging its feet with respect to coming up with a border reopening plan.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Patience grasshopper...the political theatre dictates that Canada moves first then in a great act of condesention the USA will reluctantly open her thighs/err borders.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

diharv said:


> It is strange that the Americans are not reciprocating with opening the land border since it was them doing the bitching and complaining about Canada dragging its feet with respect to coming up with a border reopening plan.


The speculation is the diplomatic awkwardness of potentially having different rules for the southern border than with the northern border. They may not want to be 'discriminating' towards Mexico which, as I understand it, has really botched its vaccine roll out. I don't mind. Let fully vaccinated and negative PCR test Americans come north and spend their money. It's no big deal if the USA keeps the land border shut to Canadians for awhile longer. Who wants to go south of the 49th this time of year anyway?

There is some risk of Americans being carriers as they come north but the percentage would be incredibly small (double vaccinations plus negative PCR test). The risk is minimal for fully vaccinated Canadians anyway. Both USA and UK results are showing a very small percentage of double vaccinated covid cases showing up in hospital and that is really what the vaccination program is about to begin with. Like having a mild cold or flu.

Besides Canadians were far too early in dropping the mask mandate by a least a month. We need a higher percentage of double vaccinated folks to keep transmissiibility low. We continue to wear our masks when in indoor settings and will continue to do so for at least another month or so. The vast majority have ditched their masks. Shame on them.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

If the border was closed for real how variants from India got into Canada? It was not closed, it was restricted.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> If the border was closed for real how variants from India got into Canada? It was not closed, it was restricted.


It wasn't closed, really. All kinds of people who either have family connections, or are students, were always able to enter Canada.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> The speculation is the diplomatic awkwardness of potentially having different rules for the southern border than with the northern border. They may not want to be 'discriminating' towards Mexico which, as I understand it, has really botched its vaccine roll out. I don't mind. Let fully vaccinated and negative PCR test Americans come north and spend their money. It's no big deal if the USA keeps the land border shut to
> 
> Besides Canadians were far too early in dropping the mask mandate by a least a month. We need a higher percentage of double vaccinated folks to keep transmissiibility low. We continue to wear our masks when in indoor settings and will continue to do so for at least another month or so. The vast majority have ditched their masks. Shame on them.


Not in Ontario. The masks is still mandatory here


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Should have been that way in BC and AB as well. Maybe 10-20% masks in supermarkets and big retailers. More staff wearing them than customers. 

Better statistics in some smaller establishments and some still requiring them.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Meh. R values still below 1, ICUs empty. 80-90% without masks since July 1 clearly not hurting Alberta.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I prefer to listen to Bonnie Henry than Alta Red on masking.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> Should have been that way in BC and AB as well. Maybe 10-20% masks in supermarkets and big retailers. More staff wearing them than customers.
> 
> Better statistics in some smaller establishments and some still requiring them.


I don't agree it should be mandatory... If not, I'd remove it right away... Masks bother me ... my glasses become foggy and it's difficult to breathe... In Ontario you cannot enter any indoor venue w/o mask.... crazy! And we have just 120-130 cases per day for 15M.
many, esp Chinese, are wearing masks outdoors, even in big Provincial Parks....even when boating in the lake 
For students who supervise kids in summer camps in those parks - also mandatory to wear masks....I feel sorry for them ..
All public indoor sport programs are closed... freaking tired of it


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

My wife still wears a mask and face shield at work and when shopping.

People give her odd looks, but she says it is better to be safe than the alternative.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

That's the nice thing. She is free to do that. Always was and always will be. It's a choice.
Whatever Albertans are doing is clearly working looking at ICU and hospitalizations.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Yea, it is okay for her maybe.

But what about a retirement home where some employees refused to be vaccinated, don't wear a face shield, and pull down their masks ?

Of course, the residents and their families aren't informed on who is or isn't vaccinated, so they really don't have any choice.

In the US companies can legally require employees to be vaccinated. In Canada, the employers can't.

There is a big question going forward on this issue. What jobs could or should require full vaccinations ?

Should an OR/ER nurse be required to be fully vaccinated ? What about a server in a restaurant ? What about a worker in an LTC home ?

After waiting all this time to get her hair cut, my wife finally got an appointment.

While there the hairdresser disclosed she didn't believe in vaccines and wasn't vaccinated at all.

My wife says she won't be going back to her. She wonders if the woman has told any of her other clients.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Regardless, Interior Health in BC has the highest new active case rate in BC with half* of all new active daily cases with less than 20% of the provincial population. Clearly the ******** don't yet get it. We will continue to mask within public indoor spaces. Despite being fully vaccinated, we have immunocompromised family members and we owe it to them, at least until the case counts do down significantly. We are the guinea pigs for BC.

* Between Monday and Tuesday, 37 new active cases in the Interior (out of 76 province wide) in a population of 800,000 out of 5.2 million in BC. And the numbers are increasing this past week, since the mask mandate was lifted circa July 5th. I expect the active new case counts to continue to rise in the Interior. It is flat out tourist season here, hotels are full in many places and everyone is going a bit nuts.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Am I the only one that finds it funny that supposedly the US border states were pushing for Canada to reopen the border, which is going to be Aug 9th, but they've continued to extend their border restrictions to Aug 21st? US extends Mexico, Canada border restrictions through Aug. 21 despite Canada's plan to allow fully vaccinated Americans


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

bgc_fan said:


> Am I the only one that finds it funny that supposedly the US border states were pushing for Canada to reopen the border, which is going to be Aug 9th, but they've continued to extend their border restrictions to Aug 21st? US extends Mexico, Canada border restrictions through Aug. 21 despite Canada's plan to allow fully vaccinated Americans


See post #21. The issue is most likely the southern border. The G&M had some discussion on that I think today. 

Added: Eventually Mexico, if not already, will be more important to the USA than Canada. On a GDP basis, Canada is #10 in the world while Mexico is #15. If Mexico gets its poo together, its sheer population base has the opportunity to put Mexico into the top 10.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> Added: Eventually Mexico, if not already, will be more important to the USA than Canada. On a GDP basis, Canada is #10 in the world while Mexico is #15. If Mexico gets its poo together, its sheer population base has the opportunity to put Mexico into the top 10.


Your are right! What I see is that they have developed as a dependent culture. Even their fuel has to be refined in Texas. They export fruit and vegetables, and manufacturing developed by the US.

When a sector gets successful, the mobs move in to demand a piece of the action (e.g. avocados) so everyone stays below the radar.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> See post #21. The issue is most likely the southern border. The G&M had some discussion on that I think today.
> 
> Added: Eventually Mexico, if not already, will be more important to the USA than Canada. On a GDP basis, Canada is #10 in the world while Mexico is #15. If Mexico gets its poo together, its sheer population base has the opportunity to put Mexico into the top 10.


Perhaps, but the point is that the governments (US, and Canada) should have worked this out ahead of time so that it could have been better coordinated. As it is, Americans are fine to enter Canada as of 9 Aug if they meet the double vaccination and negative PCR test standard, but Canadians will have to wait until at least 21 Aug. It's actually somewhat detrimental to the US border town economies. At any case, those same border states are now going to try to pressure the US government after we've already said we would open.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I think Canada likely knew USA would march to their particular drum. Personally, I don't care if the USA won't let us in for awhile longer this time of year and I am not particularly concerned about US border businesses. That is their problem. 

Since the USA really doesn't much care about how they impact anyone else, as in holding up our pipelines and imposing tariffs on various products on a whim, why should we give a poo about them? People are making way, way more out of this than is merited.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

AltaRed said:


> ... It's no big deal if the USA keeps the land border shut to Canadians for awhile longer. Who wants to go south of the 49th this time of year anyway?


<insert tongue in cheek>
Probably the Canadian politicians who didn't make the trip to their US property yet.
<remove tongue from cheek>

One of my friends went down about two weeks ago to get engaged and married. 

There's couples with one partner in Gatineau QC and the other in Albany NY. Not quite as exotic as the couple I read about years ago where one had a company in Canada and the other in Mexico so they split the travel time by living in the US!!

There's also geographic oddities such as Point Roberts, Washington where some Canadians with property, boats and animals are petitioning to enter (4,417 signed so far).

And then there's the run of the mill family visits (I can think of about ten people, without sweat).


Cheers


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Okay, there may be 1 in 1000 who have real reasons to go south.

Spouse's relatives are one of those with property in Point Roberts. They don't seem terribly upset about not having seen it since March 2020. It's the price one pays to have property in another country. They already have known the risks of being denied entry for any reason at all by CBP, or even for no reason at all. Imagine the USA suddenly denying entry to Canadians into perpetuity!

DIL has been waiting to see her siblings from stateside for well over a year now. Now they will be coming this way a few days after opening in August. We will have a party. There really is no crisis, just inconvenience.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

I was out a restaurant yesterday in Ontario. Every table was filled. Of course, no masks required once you sit down and are stationery side the table next to you. But if you get up to leave or use the washroom, mask needs to go back on. I guess it’s the only solution, but feels weird being maskless for 90 mins in an indoor setting, yet I need to wear a mask grocery shopping or paying for gas.

either way, i‘ve been out twice for indoor dining since ontario reopened. Our city has probably had less than 10 cases in 2 weeks. There appears to be a lot of pent up demand For dining. If cases remain low, it bodes well for a strong economic recovery…..maybe too strong?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^


> If cases remain low, it bodes well for a strong economic recovery…..maybe too strong?


 ... I don't see it being "too strong" at all. Certainly not with "cases still remaining low". We would be "very" lucky to see a "strong" economic recovery meaning like back to what it was before (aka the "norm"), if there're next to nothing cases.

Right now with the Reopening of such venues (especially indining), it's "pent-up" demand. It'll revert back to the "norm". Human habits are hard to die.



> But if you get up to leave or use the washroom, mask needs to go back on. I guess it’s the only solution, but feels weird being maskless for 90 mins in an indoor setting, yet I need to wear a mask grocery shopping or paying for gas.


 ... don't blame you for feeling weird but weird looking too, to me. Servers need to have to their mask on while patrons don't (while eating of course), all within the same place/time. How practical is that? This is my observation from take-out.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Beaver101 said:


> ... don't blame you for feeling weird but weird looking too, to me. Servers need to have to their mask on while patrons don't (while eating of course), all within the same place/time. How practical is that? This is my observation from take-out.


Maybe not practical, but can make some intuitive sense. The patrons are generally sticking with their own bubble at the table so they aren't going to interact that closely with other patrons. Servers, on the other hand are going from table to table, so if they get infected, they'll likely spread it around different bubbles and you can get multiple outbreaks.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Staff in service businesses are, for the most part, feeling vulnerable with unmasked customers and some of them 'thank' me for still wearing a mask indoors when I chat with them in the aisles or at the cashier. They are wearing masks to try and protect themselves from the 'unwashed' 20% of so who still are not vaccinated and almost certainly unmasked. I don't blame them.

Some personal service businesses like hairdressers, dentists, massage therapy, etc. are still requiring masks to enter their businesses and I support that 100%. It is respectful and courteous to others. I will likely continue to do that until our regional new active daily case count drops to less than one per 100,000 population. Right now, we are running closer to 5 new cases per day per 100,000 population and that does not include those not being tested.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

I get the feeling, watching how people are acting, that many think the pandemic is over. In our area, it is essentially or at least, it is taking a summer break!. Just one active case at present among the 200,000+ population covered by the health unit. Surrounding health unit counts also in low single digits. So, not surprising we are letting our guards down.

However, only 1/2 Canada's population have received two doses of a vaccine. Restaurants and other public places are opening up. And now we will allow travellers from other countries to once again visit. Have we waited long enough? Somehow, I don't think so.

BTW, Our American friends are in process of finding out, as are the Brits.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

agent99 said:


> I get the feeling, watching how people are acting, that many think the pandemic is over. In our area, it is essentially or at least, it is taking a summer break!. Just one active case at present among the 200,000+ population covered by the health unit. Surrounding health unit counts also in low single digits. So, not surprising we are letting our guards down.
> 
> However, only 1/2 Canada's population have received two doses of a vaccine. Restaurants and other public places are opening up. And now we will allow travellers from other countries to once again visit. Have we waited long enough? Somehow, I don't think so.
> 
> BTW, Our American friends are in process of finding out, as are the Brits.


I have to point out though, our fully vaccinated rate is higher than the US and UK when they started opening up, or before the increase in new infections. In the UK, case loads started climbing at the end of May/beginning of June and they only had 38% fully vaccinated. US cases are starting to climb earlier this month when their percentage was around 46%. We're a little better now at 52% with no spike yet. If we take precautions, we may still have a fourth wave, but maybe not as sharp. In the UK, they may be seeing the top of their peak, while the US's cases are still rising. Maybe by end of Aug/beginning of Sept we'll know whether a fourth wave will be avoided, or if it will hit.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

All of us, i.e. the UK, USA, Canada and others will have new spikes for being premature with 'optional' masking. There is no doubt in my mind about that. The question is, what rate of hospitalization and deaths will result? Very few from the fully vaccinated, immunocompromised individuals aside, but there will be a disproportionate number of the 'unwashed' who do end up in hospital and die, and the bigger issue may be the <12 group who will be going back to school right about the time of another peak. Oh joy!


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> All of us, i.e. the UK, USA, Canada and others will have new spikes for being premature with 'optional' masking.


The question is what you mean by premature. Do you mean we need 90% full vaccination before dropping the mandated masking? Or is 70% enough? 

There's no real correct answer, it's all about risk analysis. Personally, I'm fine with wearing a mask indoors when shopping etc, due to the large amount of people you get into contact with. Maybe part of the health and safety guidelines would mandate mask wearing for servers and similar workers. That's not much more than the hygienic requirements to wear hairnets and the like as cooks.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Sure it is based on probablities but modeling I have read about is suggesting 80+% for the new Delta variant for first dose and not far behind for 2 doses. It is very much tied to transmissibility and infectious (viral) load. And particularly when we now know the main vehicle for transmissibility is airborne, i.e. indoor spaces and quality of HVAC systems.

Keeping the mask mandate to the end of July could have made a difference to holding down the increases in new daily active cases that are now occurring in a number of locations. I see potentially an explosion in daily case counts in our highly tourist oriented location, even if we are 80+% in 1st dose and circa 50% in 2nd dose.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> Sure it is based on probablities but modeling I have read about is suggesting 80+% for the new Delta variant for first dose and not far behind for 2 doses. It is very much tied to transmissibility and infectious (viral) load. And particularly when we now know the main vehicle for transmissibility is airborne, i.e. indoor spaces and quality of HVAC systems.


Personally, I think the government should provide some support for businesses to upgrade HVAC systems, but that's another issue.



AltaRed said:


> Keeping the mask mandate to the end of July could have made a difference to holding down the increases in new daily active cases that are now occurring in a number of locations. I see potentially an explosion in daily case counts in our highly tourist oriented location, even if we are 80+% in 1st dose and circa 50% in 2nd dose.


It may help. Although based on the fact that Alberta opened up pretty early in July and there hasn't been an explosion of cases is a good sign. Unfortunately, based on the current trends, it looks like we'll peak in the mid-70%... assuming everyone who got their first dose gets the second one. Given that supply isn't an issue, everyone who wants the first shot, has the opportunity and since it has been a while, the 1st dose isn't budging much.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The last holdout in my extended family capitulated today and got her first dose (AB). So there are stragglers who will still get on board. There could be another bump if there are real restrictions about going certain places without being double vaccinated. BC is just over 80% for first dose and am guessing it won't get much higher at least not until a fourth wave of the unwashed.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Why stop there? Why not just shoot people on the spot if they aren't vaccinated? That will surely increase uptake of first doses to 100%!
It is not like anyone gives a **** about human rights, privacy, medical intervention, etc.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

bgc_fan said:


> Servers, on the other hand are going from table to table, so if they get infected, they'll likely spread it around different bubbles and you can get multiple outbreaks.


Servers are exposed to a huge number of strangers each day. Similar to other store employees.

I hope that employees are smart enough to keep wearing masks, whenever they are working indoors.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

agent99 said:


> I get the feeling, watching how people are acting, that many think the pandemic is over.
> . . .
> BTW, Our American friends are in process of finding out, as are the Brits.


Exactly. Many people think it's over, or they never really cared, and now they can return to all the activities they always wanted to do anyway.

When I look at the bars and restaurants around where I live, it's bedlam. Everyone drinking, laughing, shrieking and spitting at each other.

I'm optimistic about the vaccines, but it's really too early to call this "done". My hope is that hospitalizations stay somewhat low in the coming months, and I am even considering resuming my international travel, but IMO it's too early to make those decisions. We really first have to see what happens in cold & flu season.

I am flying domestically in a few weeks, finally able to visit some family, but that's as adventurous as I will get for now.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Why stop there? Why not just shoot people on the spot if they aren't vaccinated? That will surely increase uptake of first doses to 100%!
> It is not like anyone gives a **** about human rights, privacy, medical intervention, etc.


 ... why the need to resort to violence? The unvaccinateds need coddling and here's the evidence in Canada & the USA:

New City of Regina vaccination pop-up clinics offer free Queen City Ex tickets | Globalnews.ca 

How to Get the Best COVID-19 Vaccine Freebies and Incentives, from Food to Money to Sports Tickets

Free exhibition tickets, free foods, free alchohol, scholarships, prizes and hell even a $5M lottery. And not just the USA but in Canada as well... free $$$$ for the whimps to get a wash...months ago. Too many to list.

You can call these incentives as a bribe if you want. But then the "cry" here about human rights, privacy, medical intervention, etc. being trumped over shows it's nothing but Troll 'R Us exercise (aka too much time on hands with nothing better else to do).


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Servers are exposed to a huge number of strangers each day. Similar to other store employees.
> 
> I hope that employees are smart enough to keep wearing masks, whenever they are working indoors.


That's why I was proposing that employees of that type are probably best served by wearing masks. However, I'm sure there are going to be some pushback from some.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... why the need to resort to violence? The unvaccinateds need coddling and here's the evidence in Canada & the USA:
> 
> New City of Regina vaccination pop-up clinics offer free Queen City Ex tickets | Globalnews.ca
> 
> ...


Carrot is much different than a stick.
I don't want my tax money used as bribes, but still rather see them as a bribe to citizens to get them vaccinated (if it's tiny stuff like you mentioned) then bribes to Aga Khan, SNC Lavalin, or We Charity so don't mind it at all.
Stick is unacceptable though as it requires people to disclose private medical records to pretty much everyone, discriminates against those who can't get vaccinated for religious or medical reasons. In short - it violates basic rights.

So yeah, carrot is fine by me ethically. Government wastes much bigger amounts in stupider ways.
Stick - absolutely unacceptable as it violates human rights.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Exactly. Many people think it's over, or they never really cared, and now they can return to all the activities they always wanted to do anyway.
> 
> When I look at the bars and restaurants around where I live, it's bedlam. Everyone drinking, laughing, shrieking and spitting at each other.
> 
> ...


So are the customers un-vaccinated or a mixture ? I am wondering how many vaccinated people want to be surrounded by those who aren't.

Personally, unless a restaurant or pub requires a vaccination.......I won't be going in.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Interesting that Hilton hotels will no longer offer daily cleaning of rooms. They say they can't find enough housekeepers to do the work.

Not surprising given the low pay for the level of risk. I suspect a lot of employers are going to be in the same situation.

Our son stays at a Hilton in Toronto when working there and says the service is well below par these days.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

sags said:


> So are the customers un-vaccinated or a mixture ? I am wondering how many vaccinated people want to be surrounded by those who aren't.


Apparently 100 members of the USA Olympic team are not vaccinated. The percentage that are is quite high at 83%, but apparently no checks were done to be sure athletes had answered accurately. Also not clear if that means partly or fully vaccinated.

You would think the olympics would have required teams to be vaccinated. But Japan itself has low degree of vaccination and population is apparently averse to vaccinations of all types.

Could not find equivalent info on Canada's team


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

agent99 said:


> Apparently 100 members of the USA Olympic team are not vaccinated. The percentage that are is quite high at 83%, but apparently no checks were done to be sure athletes had answered accurately. Also not clear if that means partly or fully vaccinated.
> 
> You would think the olympics would have required teams to be vaccinated. But Japan itself has low degree of vaccination and population is apparently averse to vaccinations of all types.
> 
> Could not find equivalent info on Canada's team


Wow, that's crazy.

I did see something about one athlete who said he was waiting until after the Olympics to get vaccinated because he didn't want to take any sick days while he was in the intense training phase leading up to the Olympics. But I think that was probably a crock - I can't imagine that a rest day a few months ahead of time would harm your training that much.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It was reported on the news that about 500 Americans have already been turned away at the border due to suspected fake vaccine records.

The CBP has only the answers to questions and their intuition to guide them.

There are sites on the internet that offer fake vaccination records.

Some form of acceptable documentation is going to be necessary.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

sags said:


> It was reported on the news that about 500 Americans have already been turned away at the border due to suspected fake vaccine records.


Border is only supposed to open on Aug 9th. Perhaps that is why they were turned away


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> So are the customers un-vaccinated or a mixture ? I am wondering how many vaccinated people want to be surrounded by those who aren't.
> 
> Personally, unless a restaurant or pub requires a vaccination.......I won't be going in.


 .. this scenario of knowing who is vaccinated or not amongst a group of people (strangers) is no different than being in a supermarket or a public transit vehicle so no need to restrict yourself to enjoying life, particularly the basic necessity of one (eg. foods). You can still order your meals as take-out which is what I do. Helps the businesses abit too.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

agent99 said:


> Apparently 100 members of the USA Olympic team are not vaccinated. The percentage that are is quite high at 83%, but apparently no checks were done to be sure athletes had answered accurately. Also not clear if that means partly or fully vaccinated.
> 
> You would think the olympics would have required teams to be vaccinated. But Japan itself has low degree of vaccination and population is apparently averse to vaccinations of all types.
> 
> Could not find equivalent info on Canada's team


Olympics are attended by almost 200 different nationalities.
Not all of them even had access to the vaccines yet. So should olympics only be for rich countries?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ 2024 Olympics should have been postponed as long as necessary or held when the pandemic is over. But then there's too much $$$$ at stake. I'm just waiting for the headliine of "First ever successful Olympic held in a pandemic!" Like a first for everything. Good luck to all the participants/athletes. If I'm not mistaken, Canada has the biggest team(s).


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Stop complaining and simply enjoy the entertainment.
Those people devote their entire lives for that one single shot at glory, recognition, and financial stability. Entire lives! And you selfishly want to take it away from them.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Stop complaining and simply enjoy the entertainment.


 .. not complaining as that is not my type of entertainment. 



> Those people devote their entire lives for that one single shot at glory, recognition, and financial stability. Entire lives! And you selfishly want to take it away from them.


 ... how sincerely sympathetic and unselfish of you here. No need for me to take anything away from them ... it's their choice to participate and try not catching Covid there and making it home.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> .. not complaining as that is not my type of entertainment.
> 
> ... how sincerely sympathetic and unselfish of you here. No need for me to take anything away from them ... it's their choice to participate and try not catching Covid there and making it home.


I believe people should have opportunity to chase their dreams and go after the goal they have worked for their entire lives. And if they choose not to do it then it is THEIR decision.

You want to STOP them from being able to chase their dreams and effectively destroying everything they worked for their entire lives. And you want the decision to be enforced on them by others, rather than leaving it to the very people affected.

Which approach is the selfish one?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Spudd said:


> Wow, that's crazy.
> 
> I did see something about one* athlete who said he was waiting until after the Olympics to get vaccinated because he didn't want to take any sick days while he was in the intense training phase* leading up to the Olympics. But I think that was probably a crock - I can't imagine that a rest day a few months ahead of time would harm your training that much.


It's actually make sense! It's also not one "rest day"... My wife (who is very serious in sport - she spends every day 2+ hours in our home gym + biking etc) got fever and huge tiredness for 3 days after every dose... and to miss 6 days - it's a lot... you also never know about possible complications...

btw, our pregnant friend (she is on 9th months) also decided not to get vaccine as there were no real studies if it's ok for pregnant


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> I believe people should have opportunity to chase their dreams and go after the goal they have worked for their entire lives. And if they choose not to do it then it is THEIR decision.


 ... that's what I said, it's their choice.



> You want to STOP them from being able to chase their dreams and effectively destroying everything they worked for their entire lives. And you want the decision to be enforced on them by others, rather than leaving it to the very people affected.


 ... just how am I stopping them? 



> Which approach is the selfish one?


 ... stop pretending you're defending other people and upholding their rights. Unless you walked their miles, you're just a keyboard troll.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> *^ 2024 Olympics should have been postponed as long as necessary or held when the pandemic is over*


That's how


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> That's how


 ... did I stop them? Or you just being pretentiously sensitive here?


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

No. Luckily you don't have the power to do so. You expressed sentiment that they should be stopped


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

damian13ster said:


> Olympics are attended by almost 200 different nationalities.
> Not all of them even had access to the vaccines yet. So should olympics only be for rich countries?


No, but do you think they should be held at all if they can't be held in way that is safe to all?

They don't have to vaccinate the whole country in order to send a vaccinated team who have all tested negative.

Even in Canada, Pfizer donated additional vaccines so young Canadian athletes, who otherwise wouldn't have qualified, could be vaccinated.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> No. Luckily you don't have the power to do so. You expressed sentiment that they should be stopped


 ... and so?


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Your sentiment is incredibly selfish if it leads you to conclusion that people should be stripped of their dreams, have everything they worked for their entire lives taken away.

You lack simple empathy - of being able to put yourself in their shoes


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

agent99 said:


> Border is only supposed to open on Aug 9th. Perhaps that is why they were turned away


Apparently not closed entirely. It will be an issue going forward.

_In an email to Global on Tuesday, the CBSA added that 591 travellers arriving in Canada (237 travellers by air and 354 by land) were referred to the Public Health Agency of Canada for “issues related to their proof of vaccination.” This includes people whose proof of vaccination needed further verification, or if they did not meet required criteria, like vaccine date or vaccine type. Note that these numbers are between July 5, when proof of vaccine became required for Canadians and permanent resident travellers, and July 18.

The CBSA would not say how many individuals were suspected to be carrying forged vaccine cards, if any.

“I think there’s a good reason to worry, but I’m not at all surprised,” said Karen Wendling, an associate professor at University of Guelph who often discusses medical ethics.
“From a Canadian perspective, we can be worried that there are going to be non-vaccinated Americans trying to cross the border.”_










Are fake vaccine cards being used to enter Canada? | Globalnews.ca


Fake vaccine cards and passports are emerging for sale on the web. Canadian border agents say they're aware.




globalnews.ca


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I will be surprised if they manage to complete the Olympics, as one expert in Japan said there is a lack of safety protocols and athletes are mixing with each other and the general population. He said Japan had over a year to prepare and failed to do so.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Your sentiment is incredibly selfish if it leads you to conclusion that people should be stripped of their dreams, have everything they worked for their entire lives taken away.
> 
> You lack simple empathy - of being able to put yourself in their shoes


 ... ... spare me. The very people who make this kind of statement are the only ones who can practice it so are you talking about yourself?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> I will be surprised if they manage to complete the Olympics, as one expert in Japan said there is a lack of safety protocols and athletes are mixing with each other and the general population. He said Japan had over a year to prepare and failed to do so.


 ... like I said in my earlier post. Wish them luck and that they come home "safely". I don't think it was a good idea to send them over and with the most athletes.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

It's being reported that interior BC now has triple the positivity rate as the rest of BC. And COVID cases are rising throughout BC, but most strongly in the interior.



sags said:


> It was reported on the news that about 500 Americans have already been turned away at the border due to suspected fake vaccine records.


Of course people are going to enter Canada with fake records. If we even demand records from them. If just asked to confirm they are vaccinated, everyone is going to say yes.

Remember that there is a strong overlap between the kinds of people who don't care about public health, and who are willing to lie or forge documents for selfish reasons. We are soon going to be getting un vaccinated visitors from all over the world coming into Canada, and bringing new virus strains too by the way.

It's bad enough we're next door to the US. For example one of my friends, a young woman who has not yet received her second dose (because the province doesn't let her yet!) is now travelling to the US midwest, a COVID hot spot. She will then travel back to Canada. So here is a single vaccinated person who can pick up the virus and bring it back, right into her university residences.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

We in the interior have had a disproportionate positivity rate in BC for the entire month of July. It will most likely only get worse with tourist season in full swing. I assume rates will double or triple through to the end of August. Just too many people partying and gathering unmasked in groups. For the most part, staff are still masked but it must be extremely disheartening having to deal with the selfish and inconsiderate. Some are doing their part by remaining masked in indoor settings.

It is pretty clear by the nature of some posts here who are incredibly selfish and inconsiderate of the community they participate in. That is the nasty side of libertarianism unfortunately. Not a lot can be done about it except to keep one's distance.

Added: FWIW, we make the assumption that the unmasked around us are not vaccinated unless we know differently. We continue to take the necessary precautions. At least for the next 4-6 weeks until we see how this unfolds. Our first dose vaccination rate is just over 80% and 2nd dose is now over 55% with 60-65k vaccinations given per day in a population of 800,000 in Interior Health spread from the AB border to as far west as Kamloops, Merritt and Princeton. The actual hot spots vary geographically every week.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Here is Saskatchewan, Costco, superstore, Walmart, Dollorama, Coop don’t require any masks or social distance, masks are worn by personnel and some odd customers.
I got mine first shot of Pfizer, but it all was poorly organized so couldn’t get the second one in time specified by manufacturer or CDC, so decided to live with one shot for now. 
Honestly should not bother with vaccines at all. Don’t plant to travel in the next twelve months. Don’t really care if border is opened or closed. 
In twelve months this hysteria will be over, hopefully.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Ukrainiandude said:


> In twelve months this hysteria will be over, hopefully.


More likely another variant that will require another shot to keep hospitals from going over capacity. That is where I would put my money at the moment.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

I don't know. People are stupid enough to accept it for 18 months, they just might be stupid enough to accept it for 30 months.
I think news cycle is slowly getting tiresome for most and more and more people stop living in fear. Numbers are trending in right direction. i think it will take less than 12 months for majority of population to simply stop caring.
Of course there will always be few of those making semi-circles around others, wearing gloves and masks, but that is their right


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I don't worry about Americans entering Canada...I'm vaccinated so have nothing to worry about if I come in contact with a person suffering from Covid. I look forward to no longer reading case numbers as a measure of Covid but rather hospitalizations. I think we should be publishing hospitalizations of all contagious diseases going forward to perhaps give us some perspective.
To this date I know no one that has had Covid unless we include media people like Tom Hanks & Trump.
I keep a mask in my pocket in case I run into some Karens in places but am enjoying shopping & eating out without feeling like a leper.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Ukrainiandude said:


> In twelve months this hysteria will be over, hopefully.


Hope you are still around to enjoy it.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

agent99 said:


> Hope you are still around to enjoy it.


Hopefully won’t get hit by a car, meteorite or a lightning strike.


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