# Why are teachers so frugal?



## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

I've always wondered this. Why are teachers so frugal. It's more than a coincidence, they must share a personality trait or something. 

Where I work, (a building that hosts large conferences for all types of professions, business, etc), teachers are the only group of adults that will sit on a carpet in a circle and share one large pizza, because the food service or restaurants are expensive. 

Or ordering from the kids menu and splitting the meal, between each other..

I read the millionaire next door and they also found that teachers are exceptionally frugal and good savers. What gives? Any teachers here?


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

I think it may have to do with the facts that 1) teachers are generally underpaid, and thus learn how to make do with less in their personal lives, and 2) teachers frequently have small budgets to work with in their jobs, and thus again learn how to make do with less.


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## spirit (May 9, 2009)

*I agree*

I waitressed all through high school and university.After I had taught for 2 years I decided to get a "real" job as a waitress again and leave my job behind when my shift was over . But I missed the fact that teaching was a calling and not just a job so I went back for 30 more years. Still teaching. I too agree that teachers can be stingy. I always tip well because I know how others need to make a living. In my job we need to keep track of any papers we use for our classroom. Two years ago I had to sign out for a box of paper clips. No joke. Due to budget cutbacks some teachers pay 300- 400 out of pocket for classroom supplies that make our classrooms more enjoyable. I have to account for all my marks, not only to my administrator but to my students and parents. My job is very public since everyone in my classroom can discuss what goes on there with their parents, other students etc. and they do. Very high public position to the community. But it is also very isolating because we rarely get to work with our peers and trouble shoot a problem at source. We need to get information on our breaks, after school, before class and always in a rush because of the bell. Lunch hours are spent supervising, assisting students, coaching etc. I know many teachers who can't wait to retire so they can go to the bathroom when they want or get a 1/2 hour to sit and have uninterrupted lunch. I cannot ask my colleague a question "right now" because I need to teach and cannot leave my class or do not want to interrupt their class. So when we get a chance to meet at a convention quite often that is the only time we can connect to get information about "everything" and not be scrutinized for any and every comment we make. Pizza on the floor in a community is not just about cost. I am not complaining about my profession. I still love it after 30 plus years. Just trying to give a reason why we do some of the things we do. That does not forgive us for not noticing that tipping is standard practice and other workers depend on it. PS If you have ever read the book Up the Down Staircase it describes exactly what I am talking about. There is a reason why over 50 % leave teaching in the first 5 years. Terrible statistic of all the professions.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

You guys must know different teachers than I do. Before I got married I dated a teacher and hung around with many of them. I also currently know a few teachers (including my sister-in-law). I definitely don't consider them to be a frugal bunch. And they don't really have to be, considering the pensions they will get.

I would also question the underpaid part -- not saying they don't deserve it, just saying I don't consider them poorly paid. Most teachers I know earn eighty to ninety something per year. Considering they get the entire summer off, plus a couple of weeks at Christmas, another week at March break, several professional development days and a benefit package that is probably worth another $10,000 - $20,000, I would say they are fairly compensated.


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## LLmoney (Mar 3, 2010)

Agreed .. teachers in ontario at least are definitely not underpaid.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Spidey said:


> Most teachers I know earn eighty to ninety something per year.


Wow, maybe teachers in Canada are a lot better compensated than in the States. When I lived in Vermont and Massachusetts I worked with and was friends with dozens of teachers, and I don't think any of them (including some who'd been teachers for 30 years) pulled in more than $40K. And none of them really had their summers off, as they were busy preparing for the next year's classes and had lots of paperwork, reports, schedules, training, etc. to complete; at best they took off the last half of July and first half of August. During the school year, most of them worked 12-hour days and typically worked weekends correcting papers, and when the students had vacation weeks the teachers were frequently at school for meetings or training.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

More on teacher salaries:

This chart shows the range of average teacher salaries by Canadian province:

http://resource.educationcanada.com/salaries.html/

It's not entirely clear how old these data are, though; it seems they might be for 2004 or thereabouts.


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## Dr_V (Oct 27, 2009)

brad said:


> 1) teachers are generally underpaid


Effective September 2009, typical elementary and high school principals in Toronto will make between $106k and $115$ per year. This also comes attached with an excellent pension and benefits package (by industrial standards), and "nearly-impossible-to-fire" job stability. Regular teachers can earn up to $91k (depending largely on years of service), and receive similar benefits. Teachers are typically required to work 192-194 days per year (reference). It's worth noting that the typical school day ranges between 330 to 345 minutes across Canada, which translates into <= 6 hours of instructional time per day, with most classes sizes consisting of 20 or fewer students.

For comparison, a tenured associate professor of electrical engineering with a PhD (which generally requires 10-12 years of university education) and 10 years of professorial or industrial experience at a Canadian university will generally make in the neighbourhood of $110k, with 2-3 weeks' of vacation, and requirements to "publish or perish" -- that is, if you can't achieve tenure within a few years of being hired, you're fired. Work days are generally assumed to be 8 hours per day (though, in reality, often much more, since research never really "stops", particularly for untenured profs), and it's not uncommon to have classes of 100 or more students. (I have personally seen classes upwards of 300 students.) Note that co-op universities, like Waterloo, teach courses _all year long_.

So I wouldn't really say that elementary or secondary teachers are "underpaid" -- I think that they have a very nice compensation package for the amount of education/experience which they possess, and for the amount of time that they're performing their work.


K.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

*Thank you* to Dr. V.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Wow, it really is different in Canada, or at least in Toronto (it's clear that teacher salaries vary by province and even by towns/cities within provinces). Median salaries for K-12 school teachers in the US are around $40K according to PayScale (http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary), but they vary widely by state: the median in California is about $70K, for example.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I am reluctant to drag out an anecdote to prove a point, but until recently I was on the board of directors of my kids' daycare, which is located in a public school in Toronto. 

Last year, we wanted to expand the daycare and we needed to meet with the principal. With one thing and another, we ended up scheduling one meeting at the end of June. 

We were told in no uncertain terms that the principal would be completely unavailable in July and August - not answering e-mails or phone calls and completely unreachable, even for a signature on a document she'd previously approved. "This is a 10-month job, not a year-round job," was the party line. 

(Editing to add: not that I'm proving a point, or that I *have* proved any point. I'm just trying to say that I know an anecdote has only limited power.)


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

In contrast, I lived for a few years with a schoolteacher in Vermont, who not only paid for many of her classroom supplies out of her own pocket, but who was pretty much always on the job when school was in session (nights and weekends included) and then after school was closed spent about three weeks in meetings, training sessions, and completing paperwork before she could take any time off. She would take a few weeks off in July and early August but was always back in the saddle by mid-August preparing for the beginning of classes. She earned $35K, although in Vermont that's not a bad salary.

I guess the system allows for people who want to treat teaching as a 10-month job, but I don't think most good teachers see it that way.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Both my mom and my sister were/are teachers. I don't really see them as being very frugal it's just that they make very good money. Like in any profession there are those that are more committed then others. We are all familiar with the scenario where there are people who get ready to leave work at 4:30 and hit the door at 4:59 and there are people who leave when their work is done. 

Their pension plan is also exceptional as well as their sick benefits. 

It seems to me that in the case of my mom and sister the hardest part of the job is the politics that goes on behind the scenes. That and the policy of transferring teachers around every few years. Not such a big deal here in Toronto District school board where it means a longer commute but up North the school board goes from North Bay to Timmins it means either ending up with extra houses or buying/selling one every few years. 

Another thing I find a bit weird about their work is that if they choose to do university courses they get paid extra. For instance both my mom and sister have Master's degrees which they did through correspondence which increased their pay. I'm not sure what the point is in paying them more, my mom taught French in a school of 300 kids pretty much the entire time. Most other jobs just don't do this certainly none I've ever had.


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## ghostryder (Apr 5, 2009)

Dr_V said:


> Teachers are typically required to work 192-194 days per year (reference).


Does that include marking and lesson planning on weekends? What about extra-curricular involvement, band, sports etc?




Dr_V said:


> It's worth noting that the typical school day ranges between 330 to 345 minutes across Canada, which translates into <= 6 hours of instructional time per day,


Plus lunchtime and recess supervision. At my son's school there is supervision starting 30 min before school starts too. Band, sports, parent-teacher meetings.....



Dr_V said:


> with most classes sizes consisting of 20 or fewer students.


Most? That link indicates K-3. And I wish class sizes were that small where I live. The only classes that are <20 are usually Kindergarten.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I think teachers in Ontario are overpaid.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I'd mind less if they did full-year teaching. Of course, if we were to introduce that, they'd probably want a 25% raise.


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## Dr_V (Oct 27, 2009)

ghostryder said:


> Does that include marking and lesson planning on weekends? What about extra-curricular involvement, band, sports etc?


Nope, it doesn't include those things. I was speaking specifically to the _legal requirements_ of the job. Note, further, that teachers are not required to partake in extracurricular activities and are not _required_ to supervise band or sports. (In fact, one of my teacher friends refuses to do these things, and works a pretty straightforward 8am to 3:20pm day.)



K.

p.s. I don't have anything against teachers -- my mom taught grade 7-8 for 32 years, my dad taught for 15 years (until he died of cancer), and my grandmother taught for 40 years. That said, I find myself looking at what an average teacher and principal make, and then contrast these with what an average university prof makes, and find myself wondering why there isn't more of a discrepancy.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> We were told in no uncertain terms that the principal would be completely unavailable in July and August - not answering e-mails or phone calls and completely unreachable, even for a signature on a document she'd previously approved. "This is a 10-month job, not a year-round job," was the party line.


Not that this debate is on topic, but I personally don't have a problem with what the principal stated above. They're right. If they're not being paid for it, they cannot be expected to do any work related to it. Just because a person CAN monitor various work-related communications mediums does not mean that they SHOULD. When they're away it means that they're away. Unreachable. If businesses and colleagues want people to be reached then those groups need to provide on-call pay or pay the worker for being available 24/7. The contract of the principal in question does not provide for this type of pay.


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

In my experience most teachers are not frugal, they spend as fast as they earn.

In my experience also most teachers put in an average work day. Show up an hour before the kids, stay for an hour or so afterwards. Every school has at least one teacher who practically lives at the school, and a few that race the kids to the parking lot to go home.

Yes most of them have the "I am not getting paid in the summer so I dont care" attitude, but hey, would you work if you were not getting paid?

I feel teachers are reasonably compensated, BUT when you factor in they only work just under 9 mos in the year, they are grossly overpaid.

That being said, I hold the same opinion of teachers as I do government DB pension:

If you think teachers are better off, then quit your job, get a degree and start teaching.

Bottom line is I am happy where I am at, so I really couldn't care less what happens to other people.

Look out for number one because nobody else really will look out for you.


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

It takes a special kind of person to be a good teacher. It really is a labour of love. A really good teacher is priceless and can make a huge difference in your child's success and happiness at school. That being said, there isn't enough money in the world to convince me to spend 6 hours per day 5 days per week with 20-30 elementary school-aged children and I applaud those that do and do it well.


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## mork (Apr 3, 2009)

Hmm.. I know quite a few teachers. None of which are frugal. They are all well paid and have plenty of toys/cabins/boats etc to keep themselves busy during their nice long summers off.

If I was to do it all over again, I would definitely consider becoming a teacher. Not only does it pay well with unbeatable perks and excellent benefits, but I imagine playing a role in shaping the future generations could be a very fulfilling job.

However, if one was to rate/compare teaching to other professional jobs based on qualifications, job-demands, work-life balance, stress/pressure, hours, etc.. I think you would find that teachers are indeed overpaid. Of course, findiing a teach that would agree with that statement would be difficult.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

(Sorry to be getting back to this post so late but) The Royal Mail, I hear you. I don't have a problem with saying that people should not be "expected" to work outside their normal working hours/days. 

I just was surprised to hear that so bluntly from a principal - I don't know what school principals' contracts say, but I haven't really heard teachers/principals' salaries discussed as 10-month salaries, you know? 

On a different topic (hey, I am taking narcotics for pain control right now, my mind is wandering) I sometimes think if I had to do it all over again I'd become a mail carrier (and speaking of The Royal Mail). I went to grad school with a letter carrier who was free to study whatever he wanted without any concerns about his future employability or worrying about getting funding, because he'd been a letter carrier for over a decade at that point. He had a "good route" and was done his work in just under 4 hours per day, leaving plenty of time for school stuff. My landlord at the time was a letter carrier too, and he said the same thing many times over - "when you have enough seniority, the amount of time you have to work goes way down." 

Not to start a war here though. I don't know whether you are a letter carrier! 

I have also thought (not seriously) about starting a very high-end laundry service, because I am kind of obsessed with textiles and fabric care.


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## davext (Apr 11, 2010)

Teachers aren't being paid THAT much. I know a lot of people who get paid more than teachers but teachers get the last laugh with their pensions.


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## stinsont (May 29, 2009)

our newspaper reports many teachers are making over $100k. I would have to think they are paid very well - we don't see too many employers paying $100k+.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I'll say another thing about teachers - they are the biggest complainers! 

Both my parents and sister are/were teachers and I don't think I've ever heard the whining that went on when various teachers would gather...


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## stinsont (May 29, 2009)

stinsont said:


> our newspaper reports many teachers are making over $100k. I would have to think they are paid very well - we don't see too many employers paying $100k+.


...further to my prior post. teachers are paid well, have great pensions and have the summer off (+ March break, Xmas, Easter .....etc etc) - presumably to spend the money they made all year teaching.

sounds like a good gig to me.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

My daughter is a teacher, and I made a mental note of the cars in the teacher's parking lot.... Given the fact that they are all earning in excess of $80K, and that some are married to teachers as well, the cars in the lot were pretty tame. I get the feeling that, while they could afford more luxurious vehicles, it would be a bit unseemly if the parents saw the teachers' lot filled with upscale cars. It might even be an unwritten rule amongst the staff to downplay any outward signs of wealth. Just a theory.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

stinsont said:


> sounds like a good gig to me.


I think if you tried it, you'd find out that it's not as sweet as it sounds. I've known a lot of teachers over the years (I used to work at an organization that gave scholarships to teachers and I placed hundreds of teachers on research expeditions, plus I taught at museums and nature centers where I worked with schoolteachers and their students all day long). 

Teaching is hard work, and there's a lot more to it than just standing up in front of a class for a few hours a day. There's an awful lot of administrative paperwork and reporting, required training and refresher courses, curriculum updates, public scrutiny, meetings with parents, dealing with discipline issues, etc. It may sound like you have a lot of time off, but none of the teachers I've known had as much time off as their students: during many of the "school vacation weeks" teachers are required to be in school for meetings, training, or planning sessions. 

This is all based on my experience in the US, maybe it's different in Canada, and maybe I just happened to be exposed mostly to dedicated teachers who did more than the basic requirements.


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## redwoodave (Apr 14, 2010)

*I am a teacher in Ontario*

You're right, many teachers are frugal - many are not though.

We have a range at my school - from nice new cars, big houses, boats, trips every march break to penny pinchers who wear the same clothes every day and ride their bike to school.

If you want to know exactly how much teachers make, you can find many of our collective agreements (with salary grids) are posted online:

http://www.nearnorth-osstf.org/Teachers/TBUContract_2008_2012.pdf
Toronto Schools
KPDSB

Not too many teachers have cracked the 100,000 mark yet - those that have are taking addition duties (night school, department head) to push them over the mark. In my relatively small board, there is only one teacher who made the ontario sunshine list.

I've been at it for 6 years now, and have taken courses to reach "level 4". My salary is around 68,000 - next year 74,000 and at the end of this contract 80,000. By the time I hit the top of the grid (year 10, level 11) it'll likely be over 100,000. (94,000 right now - it all depends on who's running the government of the day)

It's odd that an earlier poster said that a principal refused to come in over the summer - principals are generally on a different schedule than teachers, and they don't get as many holidays as we do.

As far as the gig itself, it's a decent enough way to make a living - you are definitely a public figure as was mentioned below - esp. if you live in a small town. Every teenager you encounter (working in stores or out in public) will know who you are. 

You have to be careful to remember that it's "just a job" - I've worked hard to cut back on the amount of myself that I put into it, because a school will suck away your entire life if you let it.

Any questions about the job itself, feel free to ask.


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## stinsont (May 29, 2009)

brad said:


> I think if you tried it, you'd find out that it's not as sweet as it sounds.....Teaching is hard work, and there's a lot more to it than just standing up in front of a class for a few hours a day. There's an awful lot of administrative paperwork and reporting, required training and refresher courses, curriculum updates, public scrutiny, meetings with parents, dealing with discipline issues, etc. It may sound like you have a lot of time off, but none of the teachers I've known had as much time off as their students: during many of the "school vacation weeks" teachers are required to be in school for meetings, training, or planning sessions.


I know a lot of teachers too - and I know they spend the majority of the summer golfing.

I don't doubt it is hard work. All I am saying is they are compensated well.


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## Alexandra (Apr 3, 2009)

It's a pretty useless exercise to pick a group and make an all-encompassing statement about them. I am sure we all know an example of a frugal teacher, and one who is not, or a teacher who treats their job as a vocation while others are there for the union benefits. 

As a group, teachers are pretty much like everyone else.


Next topic: Why are all engineers so rude?


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## Ben (Apr 3, 2009)

Alexandra said:


> Next topic: Why are all engineers so rude?


We were born this way - it's not our fault. 

And even if teachers are frugal, I think engineers may be "frugaler".


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

Alexandra - I'll bite...do you have some anecdotes? Women engineers or just the men?


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

Maybe teachers and engineers are frugal because they understand the math and can calculate compound interest.


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## redwoodave (Apr 14, 2010)

It is possible that teachers appear frugal because there is generally very little pressure to "keep up with the joneses" in the workplace.

Teaching is one of the few careers where being a shabby dresser/socially awkward/out of style/eccentric will not hurt your career prospects in the least (after you get your first job, of course). It is all about you and the students in the classroom - if they learn from you and you can manage a classroom effectively, you can have a long happy career with regular pay raises without really ever having to conform to a corporate culture.

Nobody really cares what you drive, where you live, etc (coworkers and students alike)

Just an idea..


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## randomthoughts (May 23, 2010)

I think you really do have to distinguish between teachers in the States and Canada. There's a really wide salary difference. Teachers here in Canada (and I have teachers in the family) are very well compensated, especially when it comes to summer breaks and benefits.

Likewise, the teachers I know are anything but frugal, though I guess it depends on standards. The teachers in my frugal family are the least frugal of the family. But they're also the most frugal of the teachers outside of the family.

I imagine teachers in the States might be less frugal than 'poor'.


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## Gagafan (May 22, 2020)

I live in a small coastal community in BC and for most of my life (I’m now 50) have heard stories about “cheap” school teachers. I have friends, a couple, who were both teachers in my home town and just a few years ago I actually asked him, what might this “stereotype” be all about? He wasn’t aware of it? He wasn’t aware of any of it. He too certainly has his ways with money. Usually if I can’t pin point it exactly, I just refer to these people as being funny about money! 

The person in this forum who spoke of the group of teachers sharing one plate of food at a convention, is what made me decide to log in and share my two cents. In the 90’s one of our local hotels offered free nachos in the pub on Fridays between 5pm and 6pm (or something) to entice folks in for a cold one after work. My friends and family would go occasionally. Every single time, there were the teachers, maybe a group of 10-15 sharing a pitcher of tap beer and taking advantage of the free nachos on Fridays. We always had to chuckle. I worked in healthcare and sure, there are frugal docs there too! There’s one in every crowd but I have to say there is something to this perception about the teachers. I’ve always wondered why? Could it go back to the days when they had no paid time off and no unions or federations to ensure they were compensated for? You think they’d be over that by now? 🤷🏽‍♀️


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I really begin to wonder what teachers actually teach. Kids today can’t read, write, or do math without a calculator. They know nothing about making money outside of a job, then again neither do teachers as they get a huge pension and don’t need to worry about retirement.

why do we spend so much on teachers who can’t be fired and aren’t even teaching the basics anymore? It’s at least 25% of the provincial budgets


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

I've been teaching for 26 years. I really enjoy the life; some summers I've worked to put more away, others I don't. I've managed to get some world traveling done through the pro-d program(s), and planned a trip, (paid for by students), to Galapagos Islands for 2 weeks following in Darwin's footsteps. Frugal? I'd say more like finding value for the time that you spend in your occupation.
I do OK salary-wise, but, throw in a family and bills, and that salary (like anyone else's I suppose) gets spread thin.
One person above said that teachers often have an understanding of math, and the significance of compound growth - I agree. Good (maybe successful is a better word) teachers are often very good at planning - it's a skill that is in every teacher's wheel-house - at if you need to plan, you often need to budget (time and money).

* I should add that teacher's pensions in the US have been hammered by hedge fund managers - read this as an example.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Teachers are cheap? 

I know lots of teachers with a couple earning $200k+ and still live paycheque to paycheque.

Maybe there are _some _teachers that are really cheap. Perhaps they hate the job and are only doing it for the money, so are hoping to accelerate their retirement.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

andrewf said:


> I know lots of teachers with a couple earning $200k+ and still live paycheque to paycheque.


Where do teachers make $200k and at what grade level?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Check out the Ontario sunshine list. A couple earning $200k is two teachers earning $100k each.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

andrewf said:


> couple earning $200k is two teachers earning $100k each


Nvm. When I read you the first time, I read it as a couple of teachers earning $200k each instead of a couple who earned $200k in total.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Definitely true.
The reason? I'd hazard a guess:

- Lower middle class or middle class upbringing with good quality, cheap parents. Very few poor kids with bad parents or upper middle class kids with rich parents (not prestigious enough) become teachers.

- Zero professional interaction with the private sectors of the economy where displays of success are more important. Their boss is the government and union, their clients are children. Zero reason to display any signs of wealth for professional/financial gain.

- Large pension and benefits contributions that reduce take home pay to only OK amounts (with total compensation being extremely generous).

- Very into international travel during their extended vacation periods, meaning less money for cars and restaurants.

- Have above average # of children themselves, with more spending money going towards stuff/activities for their kids.

- Extremely Liberal personalities, and less interested in participating in opulent display of financial success. May experience guilt in earning/spending too much.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

randomthoughts said:


> I think you really do have to distinguish between teachers in the States and Canada. There's a really wide salary difference. Teachers here in Canada (and I have teachers in the family) are very well compensated, especially when it comes to summer breaks and benefits.
> 
> Likewise, the teachers I know are anything but frugal, though I guess it depends on standards. The teachers in my frugal family are the least frugal of the family. But they're also the most frugal of the teachers outside of the family.
> 
> I imagine teachers in the States might be less frugal than 'poor'.


I didn't even know that you could bring treads that are 10 years old. This is the oldest I have seen in a long. 

Just like any other profession, there are frugal teachers and non frugal teachers.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

Teaching, particularly for those who are good at it, is a calling. The reward comes through the "flow" (concept from Mihaly C). Most teachers do not find ostentatious displays of wealth or wasteful spending rewarding. I think that is an enviable position to be in.

I don't know why that is not true for doctors, lawyers, businessmen, etc. Perhaps teachers are more selfless.


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## latebuyer (Nov 15, 2015)

I would definitely not describe my sister as frugal and what i don't understand is why a couple who are both teachers need to run a line of credit when they don't have to save for retirement. Still i wouldn't want to be a teacher durin covid 19. It sounds like a real mess.


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