# Financial Literacy & Education in Canadian Schools



## Ben (Apr 3, 2009)

How do you feel about the quality of financial education you received in school growing up? 

If you're anything like me, it was non-existent. We spend hours upon hours learning about the water cycle, but no time learning the basics of how to manage money responsibly, or even what interest was.

I did a quick search, and pulled up this. 

http://www.fcac-acfc.gc.ca/eng/default.asp

Seems a bit late in the game to be educating people through a website. Chances are, if you're actively searching for financial information, chances are you're not the one most in need of the information. It's those blissfully unaware that most need the help - the only way to reach those ears is while they are a captive audience in schools.

A link to a recent Globe story on the topic:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...30/BNStory/lifeMain/home?cid=al_gam_mostemail

I believe I heard some media coverage a few weeks back that Harper was planning some inititive in the area of financial literacy. What arenas are you aware of that are advocating change in the approach to Canadian financial literacy and education? Do you feel this should be a Canadian national priority for our governments?


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

Ben said:


> How do you feel about the quality of financial education you received in school growing up?
> 
> If you're anything like me, it was non-existent. We spend hours upon hours learning about the water cycle, but no time learning the basics of how to manage money responsibly, or even what interest was.
> 
> ...


If it wasn't for my parents, I would have learned very little about personal finance while I was younger. I believe they offered 1 business course going through high school which didn't touch on personal finance.

Personally, I would love to get involved with implementing a national financial education program.


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## Canadian Finance (Apr 3, 2009)

Hopefully one day there will be an actual personal finance class in high school, and make it mandatory. I think there are quite a few people who move on to college and get enticed by all the credit card offers as it seems like easy money.

I’m one of them, my credit was a mess 10 years ago and I think it made me a much more frugal and credit conscious person today. The “new me” never carries a balance on my credit cards and I have a credit score is now 750+.


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## Financial Highway (Apr 3, 2009)

I have been a big advocate for mandatory personal finance courses in high school. There is just a huge lack of financial education and it is never too early to learn about money management.


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## mfd (Apr 3, 2009)

If they want personal finance classes to work I think the focus should be on role playing scenarios and case studies. Really allow students to relate. It can't just be texts full of information because they already have access to that via the internet.


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## Alexandra (Apr 3, 2009)

I had no personal finance education whatsoever growing up, in school or at home. My parents were of the belief that discussing finances was a no-no. 


My husband is involved in a program called Junior Achievement where he volunteers to teach a 5th grade class for a half day about personal finances, credit cards, and savings.


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## Financial Highway (Apr 3, 2009)

Alexandra I think what your husband is doing is a great thing, I am hoping to be able to do something similar here, maybe not 5th but 8th or 9th grade.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

Like others, I picked up frugal financial habits from my parents. I didn't grow up in Canada but I do think that basic personal finance should be taught in schools. I'm skeptical that it would bring about any dramatic outbreak of financial prudence but even if only a small percentage benefit from such education, it would benefit our society at large. The reason for my skepticism is that we all know what is good for us: floss daily, eat vegetables, exercise regularly, save a bit of your income. At least for the vast majority, it is not the "knowing" part that is the problem; it is the "doing" part, IMO. Having said that there is no downside to teaching personal finance in schools and it is worth trying.


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## MTNG (Apr 3, 2009)

My financial education when I was growing up consisted of my father showing me his empty wallet and saying "This is how much money you can spend, because this is all there is"

I took a great interest in my financial education so I would never be like my parents.


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## Ben (Apr 3, 2009)

CanadianCapitalist said:


> At least for the vast majority, it is not the "knowing" part that is the problem; it is the "doing" part, IMO.


I wonder whether the knowledge really is as commonplace as enthusiasts such as ourselves would like to think. From inside this personal finance bubble, it is a little hard to imagine NOT having the understanding, but when I rewind my own experiences a few years, it wasn't until I took an Engineering Economics course in final year and first saw the concept of time value of money that things really clicked. That was the spark for the fire, for me. I would wager that a lot of people never get that spark. You could also wonder how we might be failing to provide some of the fuel for that fire as well, such as basic math skills around percentages/fractions/exponents.

I would love to be able to send a survey to the Canadian masses asking a range of fairly basic questions from the personal finance arena, and analyze the responses. I think there are some real holes in the basic financial literacy of our citizens.

Is anyone aware of any data/studies that have been conducted on assessing financial literacy levels in Canada? Are there groups doing research in this area?

And I'm interested in Alexandra's reference to the Junior Achievement program. I've dug up the Canadian site for this program, and it looks like there are a wide range of possibilities for how you/we can perhaps make a difference in the education of our youth. It appears there may be an opportunity to get involved in some in-class outreach, if you have the inclination and the time.

http://www.jacan.org/programs.cfm


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## mfd (Apr 3, 2009)

MTNG said:


> My financial education when I was growing up consisted of my father showing me his empty wallet and saying "This is how much money you can spend, because this is all there is"
> 
> I took a great interest in my financial education so I would never be like my parents.


Hahah Awesome. Now that's a finance lesson I want to pass on to my kids


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## fifi (Apr 3, 2009)

CanadianCapitalist said:


> At least for the vast majority, it is not the "knowing" part that is the problem; it is the "doing" part, IMO. Having said that there is no downside to teaching personal finance in schools and it is worth trying.


An interesting topic for me...
1. Teachers are bound by a legal document in what they teach (ie the curriculum). As provinces cram more and more into what they need to teach students, and how, teachers have less and less time to explore some of these other issues (such as money in a more contextual sense) in anything but a superficial or simplified manner. If we are to advocate for change, we need to lobby provincial MLA's for changes/additions to the curriculum.
2. There are some course "options" that deal with money, and some schools allow for more flexibility around option course development. However, many teachers are not comfortable enough with the intricacies with money management to both develop and teach a course on their own, or even to integrate it with their subject matter. Again, support is needed from the province to either fund teacher professional development (as needed) or to have some of the provincial curriculum developers focus more on curricular development for teachers to use as a guideline.
3. Working with junior high students with a variety of socio-economic backgrounds, it is surprising to see the lack of understanding of basic finances from almost all students that I have worked with. I would argue that students need the "knowing" part as well, but that really "knowing" comes from "doing". Like most of us know, experience and wisdom account for a lot.
4. Teachers are offering students more and more choice and flexibility in projects these days. If your child is interested in finances, have them bring it up with their teacher and develop some kind of project together, most likely to be integrated with something they are currently doing in school (if they are working on various types of graphing, have them track and graph some stocks; if they are working on early settlement of the land, have them work on bartering and trade issues of the time, or some companies that have been around for over 100 years and how they have evolved/managed to stay afloat). 

I think that teachers, as well as most adults and people, really have very limited knowledge of finances--and for many that's ok, with the other stuff they have going on in their lives. To offer some kind of financial foundation in school for all students would be fantastic, and I agree should be there. If you REALLY believe in it strongly, contact your MLA, or slip it in with discussions with your child's teacher.

fifi


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## Alexandra (Apr 3, 2009)

*Junior Achievement*

Here's another link for those of you in Central Ontario:

http://www.jacentralontario.org/

Here's the details on the experience from my husband:

Basically, you apply online and they contact you. My husband had to do a one-hour training course at Junior Achievement. They gave him the course material, and also an outline as to how to run the class, but my husband added his own point-of view and his own sense of fun. For instance, he bought Nerf footballs, and when the kids wanted to answer a question, he chucked the football at them. They caught it, answered the question, and then tossed it back. He bought prizes for them, and had little made-up pop quizzes so he could give them out. The kids and the teacher had a great time...the class can be as fun as you make it. the class was actually a full-day, not a half-day as I first thought.

JA are looking for people who can talk in front of others, and for people who have some career or life experience to talk on the subject of finances. And, as my husband put it, they are looking to weed out "creepy people" so that is why they will meet with you in person for the training course.

They assigned him a school and class - you will have no choice in that regard (i.e.: you will not be able to teach your 11-year old son's class). According to the website, they are desperately looking for more course instructors, so for those of you who want to give back to the community, here's your chance!

One caveat: Two times, my husband came down with the flu after teaching the course. As he puts it, those classes are petri dishes for germs ;-). So make sure you wash your hands frequently and get your flu shot!


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## lister (Apr 3, 2009)

Basically nothing in school. There was one business course and one economics course in high school. Neither touched on personal finances. I wish there were courses available back then to take rather than having to take some of the ridiculous mandatory courses which were useless. If I knew then what I know now I would have taken better care of my finances through my 20s and would have had more freedom to do what I wanted now. Ah well.

The only thing I learned from my parents is what NOT to do.


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## wealthycanuck (Apr 7, 2009)

Ben said:


> but when I rewind my own experiences a few years, it wasn't until I took an Engineering Economics course in final year and first saw the concept of time value of money that things really clicked. That was the spark for the fire, for me. I would wager that a lot of people never get that spark.


That's funny because I had the very same experience. I took so much math in school as an Engineer but the most practical learning came from that course.


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## Ben (Apr 3, 2009)

wealthycanuck said:


> That's funny because I had the very same experience. I took so much math in school as an Engineer but the most practical learning came from that course.


It's almost enough to make you wonder, when you see how many of the bloggers are engineers by training (CC, MDJ, Free at 45, etc)... Maybe we have uncovered the holy grail of personal finance freedom - take Engineering Economics 101!


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## lb71 (Apr 3, 2009)

I remember in high school, those students in the "basic" stream learned to fill out tax forms in math class, while those in the "advanced" stream did not. (Those terms are no longer used.) I guess it was on the premise that those in the advanced stream could figure out how to do their own taxes. But I doubt very much those in advanced could, especially those that did not pursue math past grade 10 and could not add two numbers together without a calculator.


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## daveking (Apr 3, 2009)

Investor Education is a good site as well. I like it because it is unbiased. They are not trying to push any products on you.

"_The Investor Education Fund was established by the Ontario Securities Commission, the province's securities regulator, and is funded by OSC enforcement settlements. It operates separately from the OSC with its own Board of Directors_."

http://investored.ca


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## ghostryder (Apr 5, 2009)

Alexandra said:


> My husband is involved in a program called Junior Achievement where he volunteers to teach a 5th grade class for a half day about personal finances, credit cards, and savings.


I haven't done the DWS program but I have been doing the ESIS program with grade 10 &11 students.


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## refutor (Apr 5, 2009)

Ben said:


> ...such as basic math skills around percentages/fractions/exponents.
> ...


maybe the place to be teaching personal finance is in high school math?


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## Preet (Apr 3, 2009)

I checked out the Junior Achievement site for Ontario and was surprised to find that one of the courses they offered was a five week stock picking competition. This is evidence that we REALLY need to increase the financial literacy in Canada - if the volunteer educators who are trying to do the right thing are using the wrong tools and potentially only presenting one side of the investing world - this is not as helpful as it is certainly intended to be.

Perhaps that is more reason to get involved, because it is a great initiative.


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## ghostryder (Apr 5, 2009)

refutor said:


> maybe the place to be teaching personal finance is in high school math?


Well I sure wish I had learned time value of money concepts in school. In fact it is something I like to touch on if I have time when I do the ESIS program with high school students. Most are astounded at how interest can pile up on debt.


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## Ben (Apr 3, 2009)

Preet said:


> I checked out the Junior Achievement site for Ontario and was surprised to find that one of the courses they offered was a five week stock picking competition. This is evidence that we REALLY need to increase the financial literacy in Canada - if the volunteer educators who are trying to do the right thing are using the wrong tools and potentially only presenting one side of the investing world - this is not as helpful as it is certainly intended to be.
> 
> Perhaps that is more reason to get involved, because it is a great initiative.


I also was thrown off by the content of the program. Stock picking is probably the last element of personal finance that should be taught. There are countless other topics of personal finance that need to be learned first.


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## Robillard (Apr 11, 2009)

I agree. Stock picking should be one of the lowest priorities. Unfortunately, it is one of the only "sexy" topics in personal finance. It is hard enough to keep students' interest on these topics as is. 

I remember doing a mock version of the Toronto Star stock picking challenge once or twice when I was in high school. I learned a few things from the exercise despite the short time frame. In particular...
- In a short time frame, a portfolio chosen at random was not much worse than one chosen by the so-called experts.
- Never pick a stock because it is all over the news (like Bre-X).
- If it's cheap, there's usually a good reason.


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## Hampton N/S (Apr 3, 2009)

Financial Literacy is one of my new "hobbies".

The Financial Consumer Agency of Canada has some great info on Financial Literacy, including survey results.
http://www.fcac-acfc.gc.ca/eng/default.asp

There have been two conferences in Canada, and the report from the second one is just released March 2009.

I teach university coroporate finance and I use many personal finance issues to discuss the time value of money etc. Our university also offers personal finance courses. 
I have made a proposal to the Dean of our faculty to take a "Financial Literacy" course to the public - and we will hope to in the coming school year.
Also, I have contacted our prov and fed reps to ask what each govt is doing to improve financial literacy in our communities. 
It's great to teach it in school so we can improve the generations ahead, but I also feel we need to get to the parents. Those most "hurt" by poor financial decisions need solutions and options put before them that will work in their home and community.
As I am able to move forward on this I will post updates.


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## Hazelnut (Apr 10, 2009)

lister said:


> Basically nothing in school. There was one business course and one economics course in high school. Neither touched on personal finances. I wish there were courses available back then to take rather than having to take some of the ridiculous mandatory courses which were useless. If I knew then what I know now I would have taken better care of my finances through my 20s and would have had more freedom to do what I wanted now. Ah well.
> 
> The only thing I learned from my parents is what NOT to do.


It's still pretty much the same - there are a couple of classes now called "Math in the Workplace" but these are geared toward students heading to the workplace, not college or university. There is nothing in place for those that will hopefully have a really good income someday.

My childhood experience with $ was watching my dad count out his weekly pay package into my mother's hand every Friday. Then she would hand him back $20 for his personal spending. Neither of them finished highschool but they were really good with money. 

My first job was with the Royal Bank for 14 years and that's where I gained my money knowledge. They offered a lot of free courses on accounting and such and paid a bonus of $100 when I completed them (which was why I really took them) but they really did help a lot.


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## Jon Chevreau (Apr 4, 2009)

I've commented on financial literacy a few times on my blog, such as here:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/.../10/financial-literacy-christmas-edition.aspx

Generally, when we baby boomers went to high school, there was no personal finance instruction whatsoever. That's changed now. My daughter last year took a Math for Personal Finance course from the Ottawa Carleton Internet School and I was surprized how useful it is. Mind you, it's got a fair bit of math, as it relates to interest rates, mortgage amortizations, annuities etc.

I'd argue such a text should be twinned with something less daunting, ideally a "story" like David Chilton's The Wealthy Barber or indeed with my own financial novel, Findependence Day. See www.financialpost.com/fd. Either book or others like them can get them interested in the topic in a non-threatening manner, then if they get "hooked" they can go to the textbooks for the detail. 

And of course, this excellent new financial forum will also be helping the cause of financial literacy in Canada, as does www.investored.ca

Congratulations to the people who launched CMF (my abbreviate term for Canadian Money Forum.) It's rapidly becoming the premier financial discussion forum in Canada!


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

Jon Chevreau said:


> And of course, this excellent new financial forum will also be helping the cause of financial literacy in Canada, as does www.investored.ca


Great website! I've bookedmarked it!


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## Shayne (Apr 3, 2009)

Looking back at high school I believe I learned how to cut some material from a pattern and use a sewing machine to make a pair of shorts for myself. Interestingly enough I have not made any of my own clothing since. 

I would think that some place in Home Ec, Lifeskills or Algebra certain financial principles would be covered.

About a month ago I pulled the 14 year old boy from the PS3 for long enough to show the results of abusing a credit card, making extra mortgage payments and the power of compound interest. Let's just say it held his attention and he has committed to start investing 20% of his summer employment income. 

Wishing I knew as much at 14 as I knew now!


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## Jon Chevreau (Apr 4, 2009)

The Investor Education Fund just released two new cartoons (3 or 4 minutes each) aimed at informing and entertaining teens about how credit cards such money out of them; and the difference between "money-losing" frivolous consumption and "money winners" like stocks, bonds and mutual funds.

Details on my blog today:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/wealthyboomer/default.aspx

This was also "tweeted" a few minutes ago.

http://www.twitter.com/jonchevreau


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## Jon Chevreau (Apr 4, 2009)

Nice to see that Ontario plans to integrate financial literacy programs into its grade 4 to grade 12 curricula starting in September 2011.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...cy-into-schools-from-grade-4-to-grade-12.aspx


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## specialk (Jul 14, 2009)

I think this has already been touched on here, but I love the idea of financial education in schools, but on the other hand, I am leery about teachers who know little of the subject, teaching my kids about it. Not to mention, a course designed by government. Will there be a chapter in there called "If you don't have enough money, just print more and spend it anyway" ??


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

specialk said:


> I think this has already been touched on here, but I love the idea of financial education in schools, but on the other hand, I am leery about teachers who know little of the subject, teaching my kids about it.


Really, is that any different than any other class in high school? More than likely, the teacher will follow whatever material is handed to them. Maybe something as simple as having the Wealthy Barber as reading material would be a place to start.

Anyway, it's a good idea, though I would have thought something like this would be easily covered in home economics or classes of that sort.



specialk said:


> Not to mention, a course designed by government. Will there be a chapter in there called "If you don't have enough money, just print more and spend it anyway" ??


I believe that's an advanced economics course, I'm sure certain people in the government have taken it.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

Concerning the complaint about the poor state of financial/personal financial training that our kids get in the system..... and the statistic that only 11% OF ALL WORKING CANADIANS HAVE A WRITTEN FINANCIAL PLAN.

Here is my anecdote.... (BTW, I author personal financial planning software, so this is near and dear to my heart)

I was born in 1941. My mother was born in 1917 in Vancouver, and was a product of our education system circa 1930 or so.

Many years ago, she showed me one of her old HIGH SCHOOL HOME ECONOMICS textbooks which was concerned with personal financial planning.... it had three detailed numeric tables...

-present value tables
-sinking fund tables
-mortgage/ annuity tables

She walked me through various exercises... one of them was as follows:

"You have $X already saved in your retirement fund, you are currently saving $Y per year and will continue saving $Y until you retire, and finally... when you retire, how much income can you look forward to in retirement?"

She showed me the methodology (using those three tables) and how you would determine an optimum amount to save in order to achieve a particular retirement income level.... tweaking the planned retirement age, interest rate assumption and retirement goal.

You could work backwards... determining how much you would need to save annually in order to reach a desired retirement income level. There were a variety of methodologies.

It was tricky, but eminently do-able.

Here is the punch line.... this was in a 1930 high school home ec class... attended by girls!!!

Oh, and by the way.... in 1930 there were no computers, let alone computers in classrooms. 

Can you imagine giving the above exercise to a current high school graduate?

I like to relay this anecdote whenever I get frustrated with the current lack of basic financial planning skills in the population.

I sure wish I had held on to my Mother's old Home Ec text.


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

Unfortunately my wife and I don't have a written financial plan. We do, however, update our income statement and balance sheet regularly.


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## specialk (Jul 14, 2009)

bgc_fan said:


> Really, is that any different than any other class in high school? More than likely, the teacher will follow whatever material is handed to them. Maybe something as simple as having the Wealthy Barber as reading material would be a place to start.
> 
> Anyway, it's a good idea, though I would have thought something like this would be easily covered in home economics or classes of that sort.
> 
> ...


Haha good points. Touche


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## specialk (Jul 14, 2009)

steve41 said:


> Concerning the complaint about the poor state of financial/personal financial training that our kids get in the system..... and the statistic that only 11% OF ALL WORKING CANADIANS HAVE A WRITTEN FINANCIAL PLAN.
> 
> Here is my anecdote.... (BTW, I author personal financial planning software, so this is near and dear to my heart)
> 
> ...


Wow. That's interesting. I just finished all of that as the very first thing you learn on the path to the CFP designation. The real kicker is, I am using an 80$ financial calculator to do it. They didn't have those either.


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## Jon Chevreau (Apr 4, 2009)

Still more on financial literacy: Visa revamps its site devoted to financial literacy:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...visa-revises-its-financial-literacy-site.aspx


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

I think more financial education is better than less. So overall I think it's a move in the right direction.


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## Jon Chevreau (Apr 4, 2009)

I see IFIC has joined the FinLit (Financial Literacy) party but in my blog yesterday and column today I question its sincerity:

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/business/There+many+sides+debate+over+finlit+value/3026367/story.html


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

There is one culprit that no one seems to want to identify... creating what seems to be a simple plan... _" I have $x in my RRSP, gross salary $y, plan to retire at age z. What will my lifestyle (after tax-after inflation) look like pre and post retirement, how much should I save, and once retired, withdraw, such that I make it out to a certain age and (just) die broke?"_... turns out to be an extremely complex calculation.

What has happened is that there are a whole bunch of programs out there (both homegrown and commercial) most of them spreadsheet-based, and virtually none of them give consistent answers when fed the identical data.

Ask yourself.... if I submit the same T4 data to my T1 or Quicktax program, I will get the same tax owed calculation. If I enter the same annuity or NPV parameters into my HP or Casio financial calculator, I will get the same results. The basic laws of income tax (T1 rules) and the laws of compound interest and inflation are cast in stone, so the question arises.... why can't these financial planning programs agree?

My explanation for the recent statistic that only 13% (IIRC) of working/retired Canadians has a written financial plan is because of the above-mentioned confusion. The financial advisor simply doesn't want his client phoning him back to explain errors and discrepancies in his cash flow forecast.

This is especially important because more and more, financial/investment decisions are dependant on income tax (TFSA vs RRSP vs nonreg, RRSP meltdown or not?, leveraging or not? ...etc) The advisor, faced with the reality that most of the cash flow forecasting programs & calculators don't agree with each other, simply avoids using them.

Just my opinion.


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## Ben (Apr 3, 2009)

http://www.td.com/economics/special/ca0610_literacy.pdf

TD Economics has issued a report today titled "Dollars and Sense: The Urgent Need for Lifelong Financial Literacy."

I haven't read it yet, but I bet you it is fairly interesting (if you are a personal finance nuthead common in these here hallowed haunts).

Happy Canada Weekend! Forecast is terrific here in Ontario.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

This is great - I must have missed this thread before. It's almost like the gov't has been lurking here.


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## jamiechese (Jul 13, 2010)

Ben said:


> How do you feel about the quality of financial education you received in school growing up?
> 
> If you're anything like me, it was non-existent. We spend hours upon hours learning about the water cycle, but no time learning the basics of how to manage money responsibly, or even what interest was.
> 
> ...


I was searching the forums for something else but came across this thread and felt that it would be a good idea to bring it back up. 

I am 18 and just recently graduated high school in July...now I have to admit I cant be happier to get out of the shitstorm high school was. Although I have to admit this thread sparked an interest and I feel I need to comment on it.

Regarding how schools approach finance and personal financial independence truly is NON EXISTENT. Yes, there are a few accounting and business courses you can take throughout gr 9 - 12 although they barely even delve into the world of finance AND THE ARE OPTIONAL. 

Honestly I think our government should be stepping in and saying..."our men and women of the future need to realize how important it is to know how to at MINIMUM manage their own money and be prepared for the future". I have my own theories on why they don't do this...(in banks pockets as they love people who make min payments, total incompetency of the govt etc etc).

It really is a extremely serious problem and I honestly think that kids even at age 15 need to realize how money works and why its so important to know more about it.

I am very thankful I took ALL available business courses (No accounting which I regret) available in my highschool career and to be honest it is what opened my eyes to financial freedom and the realization that its a good thing to know even a little about the complicated financial world.

Now I would like to address any parent who still has kids in high school. My recommendation is get them to take any and all business courses (usually they are considered optional/"elective" courses). Now most kids dont like the idea of taking business courses but at least get them to realize how important it is to know at least a bit about business/finance.

Note: I was kind of all over the place and repeated a few things in my post but I just cant express enough disgust for our high schools in the fact that they really DO NOT prepare any child for the real world. As well as expressing the importance for children to learn about money and how our government blatantly refuses to fix or even acknowledge there is a problem.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

jamiechese said:


> ...Note: I was kind of all over the place and repeated a few things in my post but I just cant express enough disgust for our high schools in the fact that they really DO NOT prepare any child for the real world. As well as expressing the importance for children to learn about money and how our government blatantly refuses to fix or even acknowledge there is a problem.


Until you go to a technical school, education is never about practical training. Even things like shop and PE are optional. What you are asking for is revolutionary. Even home economics is no longer offered.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Ben said:


> How do you feel about the quality of financial education you received in school growing up?
> 
> If you're anything like me, it was non-existent. We spend hours upon hours learning about the water cycle, but no time learning the basics of how to manage money responsibly, or even what interest was.


That's what I found weird when I was in high school. Those setting up to go to university were ignored. I guess the assumption was they were learning it on their own.

Those setting up to graduate did a little better as their math courses used examples such as filing out a tax return. I didn't pay attention at the time so I'm not sure how extensive the education was.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

CanadianCapitalist said:


> ... but I do think that basic personal finance should be taught in schools. I'm skeptical that it would bring about any dramatic outbreak of financial prudence but even if only a small percentage benefit from such education, it would benefit our society at large. ...
> 
> At least for the vast majority, it is not the "knowing" part that is the problem; it is the "doing" part, IMO. Having said that there is no downside to teaching personal finance in schools and it is worth trying.


I agree it won't be applied by everyone in the class but for those willing to learn, the impact will be huge.

I disagree about the "knowing" part. It's one thing to hear at a high level "don't spend all your money" but when your parents pay the whole load and then some with no strings attached, the need to do (or for that matter learn about finances) does not exist. Then later when the need presents itself, the "doing" is much harder because:
a) there are so many ways to lose sight of how they got there.
b) there are years of habits that have to be overcome.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Ben said:


> I wonder whether the knowledge really is as commonplace as enthusiasts such as ourselves would like to think. From inside this personal finance bubble, it is a little hard to imagine NOT having the understanding, but when I rewind my own experiences a few years, it wasn't until I took an Engineering Economics course in final year and first saw the concept of time value of money that things really clicked. That was the spark for the fire, for me. I would wager that a lot of people never get that spark. You could also wonder how we might be failing to provide some of the fuel for that fire as well, such as basic math skills around percentages/fractions/exponents.


Agreed ... I also think part of the problem is that if this isn't taught at home or discovered by an inquisitive mind, by the time reality sets in, the person affected does not have the same time to learn available and is likely not learning as quickly/effectively as they used to.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

lb71 said:


> I remember in high school, those students in the "basic" stream learned to fill out tax forms in math class, while those in the "advanced" stream did not. (Those terms are no longer used.) I guess it was on the premise that those in the advanced stream could figure out how to do their own taxes. But I doubt very much those in advanced could, especially those that did not pursue math past grade 10 and could not add two numbers together without a calculator.


My experience was similar - though with more time, I remember some of the advanced math classes teaching formulas to calculate financial items like how much to invest now at a set interest rate/payment schedule to end up with a future value. However, it was out of context so it didn't really mean a lot in the big picture.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

fifi said:


> An interesting topic for me...
> 
> 2. There are some course "options" that deal with money, and some schools allow for more flexibility around option course development. However, many teachers are not comfortable enough with the intricacies with money management to both develop and teach a course on their own, or even to integrate it with their subject matter. Again, support is needed from the province to either fund teacher professional development (as needed) or to have some of the provincial curriculum developers focus more on curricular development for teachers to use as a guideline.
> 
> ...


Some really good points ...

For number 2, as much as broad based support would be better, I'm thinking the challenge is not as great as it seems. For starters, if the aim is for the basics of personal finance, I'm sure I could fill a year without much trouble. That's without any prior finance training.

Then too, there may be other teachers with the expertise who could help out. I think of the school board whose business teachers founded the credit union. Within a few years, they were buying a six million dollar building in the heart of the city, renting out all but two floors. I'd have to check the timeline but I seem to recall they paid if off in six years. Not bad for a group that the general public at the time was referring to as "those who can't do - teach".

For number 3, given all the comments on this thread and a pretty consistent experience, I'm not sure where the surprise is coming from. Regardless of how much easier it is today to get information, say from the internet, if there isn't a perceived need motivating the learning - why would the situation have changed?

Then too, I'd think those in the lower socio-economic may believe they'll never have money and those in the middle have too many other fun things to do. The bottom line is that I'm not seeing why today would be different from yesterday.


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## spirit (May 9, 2009)

*Financial literacy in schools(long post)*

Now some words from the other side. I am a high school teacher who works mainly with the non university stream students. Great kids most of them, hard working but not necessarily at abstract subjects. When I was teaching them math (my area of interest is English, social but new teachers fill the voids in the timetable) we spent all our time on basic financial literacy while the university bound students focused on higher level thinking skills such as algebra. I remember my own high school teacher telling us what we were learning would someday be obsolete but not the skills we were developing, logical thinking, process development etc. Mostly I still agree with him.
Today my teaching assignment involves students who need to meet certain credit requirements to get their high school diploma. They come to me so we can fill in the gaps and I have a choice of 20 subjects they can take. They are "option courses" and were getting mostly outdated. This year we ordered new resources that were just developed. It takes years to reformat adult level topics for students to be successful in. Everything needs to include repetition, building of concepts, quizzes, research assignments, evaluation standards, vocabulary development etc. But they are here and hopefully students will want to take them. I compete with band, sports, welding, art, Spanish, German, mechanics, carpentry,home ec. cosmetology, photography, computer literacy, leadership etc. If you were 16 ask yourself honestly what would you take, one of those or math type courses in financial literacy. As a parent what would you want your child NOT to take in order to take one of my courses. Now for the good part. Here is a list of some of what I offer
Personal taxation
Accounting, cycle 1 and 2
Accounting prep
Personal Financial Management
The Business Organization
Business in the Canadian Economy
Business in the Global Marketplace
Promotion Sales Techniques
Distributing Goods and Services
Forensic Science
Personal Psychology
Abnormal Psychology
Note the last 3. These courses are just becoming available in my classroom and most students want the last 3. I am advocating for the others but students and parents have the right to choose. Rightly so. 
So, my advice is.. noone looks after your money as well as you do. Teach your children the values you most want them to have by modeling them yourselves. We are trying in the schools but we also need your help to let your kids know that the future will be more complex and they need financial literacy skills in order to be successful. But they are kids and have their own ideas too. Thanks for listening. Sorry if it sounds like a lecture but my students are dealing with issues that I can only shake my head at. Parents deployed in the military coming back with mental and physical injuries, friends committing suicide, parents, friends and themselves with addiction problems, cyberbullying. The list goes on. I really admire them and hope we can give them some of the tools they need to be successful.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Wow! Reading these comments I'm suddenly aware that my financial education in school may have been a bit more privelaged than the rest.
I remember in grade 7 doing an exercise where we were given an "income" and had to create a family budget. We then took it home and tried to do a real budget with our parents income. Another where we had a fake car auction to try and teach us not to overpay for things. In grade 8 we designed and priced our dream home, in grade 10 history we discussed the great depression and did a stock picking contest which resulted in us losing all our money in 1929. And in grade 11 math we covered an entire unit on the basics of savings, bonds, interest rates and all the personal fiance F|P|A formulas. 
The only thing I really think we could have used was some schooling on taxes, and perhaps a good personal finance/budgetting refresher in grade 11/12.

Of course despite all this I find a great majority of my friends are fairly clueless about saving and spending money...


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

I remember in grade nine, we were tought vaugly about the stock market and even had to pick stocks from The Toronto Star, to learn about investing. This was from a special course that was only offered to us (at the time) in all of ontario. 

However, I don't really think it had any effect on my personal money or investing habits, as back then, I was too immature to act upon the stock market or money investing.


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## Jon Chevreau (Apr 4, 2009)

Some may find the little story here amusing, in response to IFIC's forum next week supposedly devoted to boosting the nation's financial literacy:

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2010/11/26/ific-and-financial-literacy-the-sequel/


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Jon Chevreau said:


> Some may find the little story here amusing, in response to IFIC's forum next week supposedly devoted to boosting the nation's financial literacy:
> 
> http://opinion.financialpost.com/2010/11/26/ific-and-financial-literacy-the-sequel/


Very good!


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## The Financial Blogger (Apr 4, 2009)

Alexandra,
Fortunately there are some programs out there. Unfortunately not enough. There was only one Economic course in High School but it was more about the economics of countries than personal finance. I think it should be a priority in education.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I had an economics course in high school and loved every minute of it. It was real life, down to earth type stuff. The most memorable items were taxes and the gov't.

The tax message was that if you are at all not sure about how to do your own taxes, don't take chances and don't sluff it off. Go to an accountant or other tax professional, pay them the $50 to get it done properly. Don't mess with Revenue Canada. Pay someone who knows what they're doing, that way you can sleep well at night.

The gov't thing was basically that you should save your own money as much as possible, don't waste, save for retirement. YOU CAN'T TRUST THE GOVERNMENT TO TAKE CARE OF YOU. Wise lesson that has served me well in life. If more people would be taught this in high school, I think our society would be better off. Every day I watch the news and see people who expect the gov't to take care of them. In many cases this is warranted but in many cases, all the lobbying and protesting in the world may not get you the same results than if you simply got a good education went to work and earned your own money to pay for the things you need and want.


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## Lephturn (Aug 31, 2009)

Every child with a high school education should be prepared for, take, and pass the Canadian Securities Course - along with many of the great suggestions above in this thread.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Jon Chevreau said:


> Some may find the little story here amusing, in response to IFIC's forum next week supposedly devoted to boosting the nation's financial literacy:
> http://opinion.financialpost.com/2010/11/26/ific-and-financial-literacy-the-sequel/



Next we will have TREB teaching people about the pitfalls of home ownership!

Of course, in schools, we can rely on teachers to impart the value of a DB pension in financial planning!


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