# Teen day trader on Dragon's Den



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Tonight on Dragon's Den there was a fourteen year old day trader who achieved a 25% return last year. He only trades the time school ends until the market closes (about 1 hour). He started following the market at age 9. Unreal!  Everybody but Robert was interested. They offered him 50k. He said he had to ask his parents. 

Did anyone see this?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

This might be a good thing to discuss in our official Dragon's Den thread. 

Anyway, yes I saw most of the episode. There were some rather youthful, refreshing pitches there. I liked the headphones in cap idea, along with the nud snack and was also intrigued by the young trader. I will be interested to know if they can make a deal with him after doing their due diligence. Hats off to anyone who could bring in 25% over the past year.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

Was it the kid in Toronto Life last month?

http://www.torontolife.com/daily/informer/from-print-edition-informer/2011/12/15/q-and-a-julian-marchese/


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Yep it's the same kid. Cool kid, he's developed an algorithm to take advantage of the day traders... funny. At least that's what I got from it. 

Day traders all buy in the morning and sell before the end of the market. 

Good for him. Plus he put a computer in charge, which is also cool because he can take advantage of spikes in the market and doesn't rely on his emotions. 

My understanding is that he reverse engineered the program. Brilliant.


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## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

I've heard him speak about the Dragon's Den episode and about his formula.

He trades the futures and oil markets and his "system" is trading oil futures based on overbought and oversold indicators.

He also said that he never got the money from the Dragon's because it's caught up in the due diligence phase with CBC lawyers.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

londoncalling said:


> Tonight on Dragon's Den there was a fourteen year old day trader who achieved a 25% return last year. He only trades the time school ends until the market closes (about 1 hour). He started following the market at age 9. Unreal!  Everybody but Robert was interested. They offered him 50k. He said he had to ask his parents.
> 
> Did anyone see this?


Yes..this was a repeat from last season.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> This might be a good thing to discuss in our official Dragon's Den thread.
> 
> Anyway, yes I saw most of the episode. There were some rather youthful, refreshing pitches there. I liked the headphones in cap idea, along with the nud snack and was also intrigued by the young trader. I will be interested to know if they can make a deal with him after doing their due diligence.* Hats off to anyone who could bring in 25% over the past year*.


This was "on paper" with the s/w he set up for his computer system to do the "trading" while he was at school. 
The fact that he was a "wiz kid" helped, dressed in a suit and tie to impress the Dragons. 

Had he appeared in bluejeans and sneakers to do his pitch..the dragons, probably would have not
been impressed..so appearances are important on that show. Note that Kevin mentioned that a lot of day traders
got creamed in the 2008 recession, so impressive returns from one year do not always guarantee the same rate of return
in future years..just too many variables out there. However, it makes for good television. 

His trading philosopy was to sell when people are buying and buy when
people are selling..what's so special about that?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Abha said:


> I've heard him speak about the Dragon's Den episode and about his formula.
> 
> He also said that he never got the money from the Dragon's because it's caught up in the due diligence phase with CBC lawyers.


Not surprised. I don't know if the "pitch stars" get paid for appearing on DD by the CBC..but based on previous sessions of DD, a lot of the pitches they mention...are not worth airing for more than a casual side note mention by Diane Buckner. 

In other words..they accept all kinds of pitches and generally only air the more sensational ones..like the young whiz kids..or "healthy" ladies prancing around in underwear (to promote a line of underwear) or anything that is considered green.

Kevin O'leary's comments to some of the pitch people is downright insulting in some cases..ie: "I should squeeze your head
like a .....!"..and then.. the nonsensical banter that goes on between the dragons is considered to be more entertainment than some of the rather ridiculous pitches that they do air. 

I get a kick of of the "idiots" that borrow money from friends/family and mortgage their homes to try and sell some idea that has marketing flaws!
Why don't these "entreprenuers" investigate whether there is a market first and the costs of bringing any idea to market before committing several hundred thousand (in some cases)..for an idea that won't see the light of day.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

This kid must have really high emotional intelligence, bear markets expose you to a lot of depressing news and obviously stress, there's no way he's writing everything off as noise (re: dogcoms thread). He's obviously paying attention to OATs auctions and whatnot. If he sticks to this system he developed he can probably do well, all you need in this casino is discipline. A lot of people blow up because they don't follow discipline. Even if you have the programs doing your work, what happens when you start doubting the programs and turn them off to override them with your own decisions? Let winners ride and take losses quickly is easy to say but nobody's bulletproof. It's only the last trade that counts.

I guess it's admirable people this age are thinking big, personally I would never trade my youth for the kind of stress he's going to have to deal with though. My generation are going to be a bitter old bunch.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

carverman said:


> I get a kick of of the "idiots" that borrow money from friends/family and mortgage their homes to try and sell some idea that has marketing flaws!
> Why don't these "entreprenuers" investigate whether there is a market first and the costs of bringing any idea to market before committing several hundred thousand (in some cases)..for an idea that won't see the light of day.


Yes I often wonder how they select these businesses. Whenever the Dragons hear about significant investment already, they tell the pitchman to stop spending right away. That is good advice...

OTOH spending money on market studies is usually foolhardy. No consumer asked for an iPod until was invented. Same with iPhone. Even RIM failed to see the potential for a smartphone without a keyboard.

The day trading kid was probably eliminated during due diligence.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

ddkay said:


> This kid must have really high emotional intelligence, bear markets expose you to a lot of depressing news and obviously stress, there's no way he's writing everything off as noise


Or...

maybe it is because he is a kid and doesn't get caught up in all of this. It isn't his own life savings he is trading with, and even if it were, does he understand the responsibility of losing 40% of it and his dependents going on to eat rice and beans for the next 3 years?


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

carverman said:


> His trading philosopy was to sell when people are buying and buy when
> people are selling..what's so special about that?


Exactly, but how many [adult] investors do that?! You would be surprised at the answer!

Smart, smart boy; like my kid.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

ddkay said:


> personally I would never trade my youth for the kind of stress he's going to have to deal with though.


Many people [young & old], thrive on stress; I actually think he enjoys what he is doing & would not trade it for anything else.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

ddkay said:


> personally I would never trade my youth for the kind of stress he's going to have to deal with though.


Me either, ddkay.

He's 15. That was one of the best years of my life. 14-16 was awesome. After 16 it's just a crapshoot.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

ddkay said:


> This kid must have really high emotional intelligence, bear markets expose you to a lot of depressing news and obviously stress, there's no way he's writing everything off as noise ..


Read the fine print in the story. It was all a "paper" exercise. He never had any real money at risk, because he's not old enough to trade legally. So there's no stress.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> Read the fine print in the story. It was all a "paper" exercise. He never had any real money at risk, because he's not old enough to trade legally. So there's no stress.


DD is mainly entertainment value. I like the kids that appear to be succesful, and the scantily dressed women, and all the other "nut cases" as Kevin calls them. Doesn't really matter whether the whiz kid had a penny of his own
to invest in the stock market..the point is that he made the effort to set up a system on his own to track stocks and buy and sell to make virtual money at it. I'm sure he has his place in this world cut out when
he graduates with an MBA from some university..but in the meantime he's just a kid that the dragons see themselves in him..in their younger years.

I would venture that none of the Dragons were successful over night. 
Arlene, Kevin , Robert and even Jim had their ups and downs..and they have enough smarts to see potential without the typical stupid decisions of to selling the family farm to hatch an idea.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm sure kids that play hockey/piano, etc., feel stress too, but the point is that they are doing something they enjoy doing and are passionate about. 

Julian has been studying/reading about the stock markets since the age of 8; he's no ordinary kid, that's for sure.

From 2009:
http://www.thestar.com/article/695971


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

The kid is gonna get far in life, good for him, I think I saw him on bnn few weeks ago and his stock picks were KO, MCD and so on, very unlike any young investors who want to hit homerun before they learn to swing the bat.

Very impressive young man.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Would you say Mike Lazaridis thrives on stress? Most of the time he seems to be very Type B, very patient and relaxed, he'll take what he can get. Steve Jobs was the opposite, an overachiever and probably beat himself up for failing. That's what I meant about having high EI, knowing how to control your emotions is critical. It is pretty similar to competitive sports, the odds are stacked against you.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Paper trading != real trading. Even for computer programs. The boy would get creamed by the spread. 

I can gain 1000% in a year with a paper program because I know how to take advantage of its latency vs real market. For all paper program, the firm that offers it (for free) are financially obliged to offer it at a delay to their real platform where REAL money are being traded. Therefore, there will always be a delay when volatility spikes.


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Causalien said:


> Paper trading != real trading. Even for computer programs. The boy would get creamed by the spread.
> 
> I can gain 1000% in a year with a paper program because I know how to take advantage of its latency vs real market. For all paper program, the firm that offers it (for free) are financially obliged to offer it at a delay to their real platform where REAL money are being traded. Therefore, there will always be a delay when volatility spikes.


Doesn't matter, the kid is 15, achieved plenty, is smart beyond his years and I would bet my money on him being very successfull in life. 

I bet you don't know of many kids his age that appear in business section of print media, tv shows and so on, really the fact that this is paper money versus real is absolutely irrelevant.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

That kids impressive,what kid gets into the stock market before age 10?(in any facet)Though i agree its a different ball game if he was trading real $$....id liken that to playing a golf game with buddies vs teeing it up in a real golf tournment,night & day.(a 5ft putt is no gimmie all of a sudden,& your knees are knocking)

You make a good point ddkay,investing reminds abit like golf actually you have 18 holes ahead of you,you take one shot @ a time,course mangement,risk-reward,your not on a team,your playing against yourself,and if you have a bad hole you have to dust yourself off and go to the next tee box and put it behind.Even taking on a growth stocks reminds me of say a par 5 and you have to carry a water hazard 250yrds out....is the wind @ your back?Can you excute your swing?I relate investing very much to sports.

Defence always wins championships,fundamentals always "wins" in the long-term....I read a good article over @ seeking alpha and one of the writers explianed how he builds he portfolio like he is constructing a football team,made total sense....appl and goog are like your crosbys and ovechkins(growth stocks)fts,bce,enb are like your scott stevens and sayne corsons not flashsy but there the one to take you to the top.(those rookie draft picks....untested....just like new companies)Were all like general managers....ya just hope you dont end up being a harold ballard lol


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## atrp2biz (Sep 22, 2010)

The goal is to be Billy Beane.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Homerhomer said:


> Doesn't matter, the kid is 15, achieved plenty, is smart beyond his years and I would bet my money on him being very successfull in life.
> 
> I bet you don't know of many kids his age that appear in business section of print media, tv shows and so on, really the fact that this is paper money versus real is absolutely irrelevant.


That's true, I didn't think of it this way. Getting famous for trading at 15 will help his acting career later on.


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Causalien said:


> That's true, I didn't think of it this way. Getting famous for trading at 15 will help his acting career later on.


Acting career huh.

What were your achievements at 15?


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Not too many people know exactly what they want to do since they were 10. Rare breed, for sure. Even if managing money doesn't work out other options are available, he's got street cred now and time is on his side. If the objective is financial freedom there are many means to that end.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I wonder if that kid views working @ goldman sacs one day the same as a kid growing up dreaming of the nhl......Or a step further and dreaming of being the next tepper or something.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Speaking of 15 year olds financial geniuses, this guy just popped in my head, obviously a lot more shady means to an end lol.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Lebed


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

donald said:


> I wonder if that kid views working @ goldman sacs one day the same as a kid growing up dreaming of the nhl.....


I still do. Not particularly for Goldman Sachs.....
But you're damn right I dream of being some Corporate CEO instead of some stupid hockey player. 

As for the kid, he's intelligent. Obviously it's different with paper money/your own money, but no big deal.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I read a awesome article about traders @ goldman,from the outside it sounds sexy but it seems like(maybe i was reading it wrong)its almost like going into a "hell" You live for your yr end bonus,egos,politics,24/7 work,constant pressure......You'd have to be built a special way for that lifestyle....imagine how ''dead'' money would feel to you dealing with funds like that day in and day out.


Kaejs your probably the next ceo of bmo in 25yrs....we @ cmf just don't know it yet..lol....One day some guy will be saying Kaejs over @ bmo makes 20mm a yr over a watercooler.....If you could work anywhere what place would you choose?You rather run a company than be @ a trading desk in a dream job sceniro?


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Homerhomer said:


> Acting career huh.
> 
> What were your achievements at 15?


I was something else at 15. 

I don't think his algorithm is viable in the real world. And I am serious about his acting career. He's great at pitching, which is a rare feat that usually requires training for programmers that can develop such algorithm.

I also suggest asking someone in the world of startup incubators on what they think of Dragon's Den.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

like the dark side of the moon, it's what you don't see in the julian marchese story that smells of cheese that's gone a bit off.

the media coverage of this teen prodigy is massive. It's obvious there's been a top-notch - read expensive - publicist at work. For more than 2 years now, dapper young marchese has been shopped around to all the major media in toronto. They all fell for the story. Never mind the business story aspect, it's a killer human interest story in its own right.

here's the Star piece that started the marchese urban legend september 19, 2009:

http://www.thestar.com/business/investing/article/695971

marchese is a 2008 product of Online Trading Academy's 7-day day-trading course. His OTA is the toronto affiliate of a multinational day-trading teaching operation. Fees are high, $5,500-6,000 & up.

my money says that OTA is the publicity-paying promoter in the marchese marketing campaign. What better way to advertise the idea that mega bucks can be snapped up relatively easily from day trading than a 14-year-old mascot all decked out in his cute little suit & tie.

& there's more. OTA toronto is hooked up with questrade. They are right there on the questrade website. That's questrade the broker with the cheap 4.95 commish for small lots of shares, something that is so irresistibly appealing to the novice-investor-young-investor crowd.

anyone who googles online trading academy will find websites stuffed with harsh criticisms. Here is a link to just one, at Elite Trader, a well-known website that is affiliated with interactive brokers. There are 43 pages in this single elite trader link, nearly all slamming OTA 7-day training courses as expensive scams.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=182218&perpage=6&pagenumber=1

one thoughtful poster in this long string of criticisms of OTA writes that the new breed of day-trading trainers all peddling their pseudotechnikkogibbero lingo are nothing more than the old real estate hucksters who've seen the green in the fast-growing DIY investment movement.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

There used to be a French fund - algodeal.com - I mentioned here a few months ago. They crowdsourced algo's, but you had to give up your rights to the code. If it proved to be profitable enough they loaded you up. They went bankrupt a few months ago, I don't know the details.

Anyway, if this kids code can be used in the real world, he could try pitching to funds like James Simons RenTech, they specialise in this stuff and are very good with compliance unlike the corrupt guys that run MF Global or LTCM etc.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Nice investigation humble, Jules posts as himself on the ET forums. You don't need to convince me OTA is a scam, only sheeple pay for education you can get for free and unrecognisable accreditation.

Anyway I'm reading through this now, no conclusions yet... http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=217800&perpage=6&pagenumber=1

Edit: lol he basically calls OTA a scam himself on page 12 and page 20. This kid is way ahead of the pack, he might not know everything but he knows a lot for his age, he probably even knows more than me, that isn't saying much though because I've only been studying the technical/quant side of things 6 months. Skillfull programming also takes a very long time, it's generally not something anyone can pick up easily in a couple of years, it takes a really long time. I wouldn't write him off yet.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Homerhomer said:


> Doesn't matter, the kid is 15, achieved plenty, is smart beyond his years..... .


That's it!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

stress for this young man is not going to come from any financial occupation, it's going to come from the stage mother & father who are pitching his image & have been since he was a pre-teen. Pressure like that on a growing adolescent can easily misfire imho. Child stars often don't do well in adulthood.

it's in the parents' networks - contacts, friends, acquaintances, backgrounds, relationships, histories - that a journalist would look for the story's infrastructure. I'd do it, but hey i'm not c blatchford & they don't pay me 250k a year.

if master marchese is slamming OTA now one can assume that the original pact broke down & the Family Inc moved on to other partnerships some time ago. Noteworthy that not a single offer to buy or fund the trading protocol has come thru any due diligence yet.

speaking of day-trading promoters, whatever happened to cmf forum's very own master of languages. Do you think he got fazznicked. Assuming, that is, that he ever actually owned a stock.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> speaking of day-trading promoters, whatever happened to cmf forum's very own master of languages. Do you think he got fazznicked. Assuming, that is, that he ever actually owned a stock.


He was treated so warmly here, mostly for his textese, spelling or whatever, any wonder he's gone?!


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Read the link. The results are from backtesting... It's even worse than I thought. Excuse me for my pessimism, but there's just too many young geniuses with an algorithm these days. 

7 days is too short for viable training in my opinion because it is not enough to train discipline and only enough time to hammer into its students the workings of 1 algorithm. The only ones I would suggest are the 1 year courses at about 3 classes per week and 3 hours per day.

There's been an explosion of these courses that I think the price of the truly great courses are also levitated to heaven's level by the fraudsters.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

Every financial institution has computer alogorithms that they use. 'The Quants' was a great book about some of them.

And who didn't make money investing in 2008 until now.

Having said that....I hope this kid does well in this future investing career, and has lots of success. He definitely has initiative. And seems to be very well spoken.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

For some reason he only backtests on 3 or 4 years of data when it should be standard to use like a hundred years, preferably more. Most responses on ET are very elaborate and helpful, for example they tell him where he might be wrong, suggest avoiding curve fit etc. If he hadn't thrown $15K out the window for that OTA junk he might have been a few steps closer to his goal. Goldman shut down their 'Global Alpha Quant Fund' this past September because they got wiped out in the summer so again nobody's bulletproof, and these programs don't usually run in isolation someone monitors them, bad discretionary judgement can be at fault sometimes as well.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Backtesting 100 years is expensive on computer time at the granularity needed for near real time amount of second by second data. The longest I've run is 5 years at hourly intervals and it took an average computer nowadays 15 minutes.

I think firms balk at the price necessary to purchase 100 years of such data, but I am just commenting from my own observations. I am not sure if second by second data is even available for 100 year old stocks.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

VC and angel investing is a bit like the movie industry. 7 out of ten of your carefully selected projects will bomb, 2 will barely breakeven, and 1 might return 10x your investment. A lot of funds do quite poorly.

I remember watching this episode a few months ago and thinking that the Dragons were crazy for investing in a teenage algo trader. Trading itself is a zero-sum game, and there are few inefficiencies that don't get squeezed out shortly after they are identified.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

cal of course we wish the talented young man well. But he's still a child.

it's the greedy adults exploiting & manipulating a child as an appealing mascot that capture one's attention.

we have perfectly lovely stage moms & perfectly lovely hockey moms. Sometimes they even get into fistfights over their little prodigies.

are we witnessing the birth of a new class of moms, the aitch eff tee moms. Like his hft mom sits beside him & the official story is she's the one who pushes the send key because he's still a minor ... lol.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

It's not all on the moms. Dad has some responsibility too, even if it's just looking the other way.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

And: the generic problem with aftcasting / backtesting is that the past does not provide us with a sufficiently diverse set of information to test possible future outcomes. 

Also, the data on stock market returns declines in quality the further back you go. Here's one standard piece on this issue: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124725925791924871.html


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

In general, I think the exploitation side of all this & other cases, is pathetic, if not criminal. I was simply admiring the ambition, intelligence & drive of this teenager.

A 15 year old, is of course a child, but as the Dragons themselves often say [all middled aged], they were not that savvy at similar age. Today's youth have greater [technical & other] advantages/abilities that many of us did not have at that age.

Some gifted 15 year olds get into university even. Example below is not rare these days:

'' The fact that a 15-year-old student's idea is being taken up by Stanford University will definitely inspire other students. It's wonderful,'' she said. Sarojini has been a topper in class and though she loves science, she neither wants to become an engineer nor a doctor. '' I may become a scientist but I have yet to plan,'' she said."

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2009-10-16/news/27649822_1_idea-pulse-students


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> Some gifted 15 year olds get into university even. Example below is not rare these days...


Wanna bet there's examples right on this forum? [must dig out university enrollment forms]


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

I can think of at least 5, including..... never mind.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I was the same age as a kid who skipped 3 grades in elementary school (I had a similar opportunity around the same time). He was not well-served by that age difference when he went to high school. Many bright children are socially awkward if not severely challenged. Dumping an 11 year old child in high school was cruel and unusual.

I think there are better ways to enrich a bright child's education that merely trying to get them to complete high school at 14 or 15.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Ahh Andrew F, as a mom of a bright kid and smarty pants myself I can assure you there are no easy answers. 

As I note with my son in JK who has already surpassed by far the SK kids in his class according to his teacher, I have to deal with that question in real life. 

My son is socially deficient, but part of that is that he does not speak the same language as his same age peers. He's trying to speak to them and they are trying to speak to him but there is no understanding from both directions. He doesn't understand why they don't want to build elaborate lego contraptions or talk about patterns and listen to ABBA. They think he's annoying. I am very sad to report that after 6 months in school he doesn't have one friend.  so the whole idea of sending him to school to socialize him doesn't seem to be working either. 

My niece who was just here visiting and him had a blast but she's 12. There's another kid he plays with that's 8. 

Meanwhile he hasn't learned anything new at school in months. Next year is Early french immersion at least he's learn one thing. 

As a parent watching the entire thing unfold is very difficult. 

Deciding between advancement or same age peer groups is hard. I wish there were a bunch of weird smart little kids I could get my son to play with so he would have a friend or two.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

That would feel lonely @ that age.Who could a kid relate too if he/she is that much more gifted than 99% of peers....it would be tough i would imagine.

I always think of matt damon in the movie good will hunting when i think of whiz kids......he could of cared less about his gift with numbers and ran circles over his profs like it was a joke to him.

That was one of the best movies of all time imo.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

Vector Vest keep running an ad w a kid from Markham that apparently uses it. Not that I am interested in their ad or believe in their product, but what is up w kids these days.

And yes, I am aware that statement makes me sound old.


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## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

This kid is everywhere.

With all this self promotion, one has to wonder if he has any time to actually make some trades.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...short-term-investing-approach/article2294586/


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Alright it's getting a bit silly now, OTA is mentioned again in that G&M piece it's hard not to suspect they paid for it. Just ignore anything on that site that says "Special to The Globe and Mail", Canadian media are sellouts.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't think it's simple either, Rachelle. At least you live in Toronto, with a high population density. Those gifted kids are out there... you might be able to prowl the internet looking for some support groups or something. Maybe check out Meetup. If there isn't a group for parents of bright kids, maybe you could start one. 

When I was that age, we didn't have internet access, but I did have access to an encyclopedia, and I read a lot. I can only imagine what my childhood would have been like with something like wikipedia.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Causalien said:


> I don't think his algorithm is viable in the real world. And I am serious about his acting career. He's great at pitching, which is a rare feat that usually requires training for programmers that can develop such algorithm.
> 
> I also suggest *asking someone in the world of startup incubators on what they think of Dragon's Den*.


It's cheap entertainment. In the first season, the dragons were a bit more serious about things..now it's bickering amongst each other, Kevin insulting the pitch "stooges"...the ones with the financially bad ideas, (although 1 out of 5 probably has a viable idea), lots of extra eye candy (girls parading around in skimpy underwear), and supercalifragalisticexpealadocuous "behind the scenes" stuff, and of course the ridiculous "loser-half baked ideas, doggy books, personal time planners etc....even if I'm not a successful dragon, I would be showing 50%-75% or even more.." don't let the door slam on yer a*s on the way out! 

However, the 1%ers..there are a few...like the kid that invented that unicycle motorcycle, and the wine maker in Niagara, and this whiz kid...who has the makings, even at his tender age..of a financial guru..like Kevin...and that's why Kevin was so impressed by him...the kid kinda mirrors Kevin himself... pinstripe suits and expensive $250 Italian ties...the only thing
the kid hasn't acquired yet is the cynical/scathing opinions of everyone.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> I
> 
> When I was that age, we didn't have internet access, but I did have access to an encyclopedia, and I read a lot. I* can only imagine what my childhood would have been like with something like wikipedia.*


You would have probably spent 99% of your waking time on the computer, 
instead of going out to play catch... or pickup hockey with the rest of the kids?


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

With Khan academy properly funded now. My guess is that the percentage of young whiz kids are only going to increase once the business model is proven to work and knowledge can be spread to everyone.

Maybe whiz kids are going to be our next social phenomena that's going to cause a lot of headaches. Intellectually superior, but socially... I am generalizing of course.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

hey cause i looked up the Khan academy, never heard of it before.

from their website i thought to myself, hmmmn who's paying for this ?

then i looked a bit further & discovered that big subventioners are the bill & melinda gates foundation, plus google. There are several other significant donors.

so i'm wondering, is this for real ? it's an amazing concept. It totally offsets greedy slophouse purveyors of "online education" such as OTA, with their 7-day wonder $7,000 teaching modules.

please tell us more about Khan, cause. The good things on this planet need more light shone on them


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Imagine if tomorrow Khan Academy charged you a generous $30,000 per video. LOL. Salman enjoys giving educational talks and, god bless, when he started out wasn't really expecting anything back, but when you are helpful to such a large audience someone is eventually bound to give back just out of appreciation. Albeit it seems like Jimmy Wales is begging these days.

These OTA folks are just sleazy sales folks preying on people and brainwashing them into "you get what you pay for". Thankfully they are outnumbered by far more influencing people that believe in democratizing knowledge. Everything they have freely available at a public library or on the internet.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

little bear you're not suggesting that khan academy will attract its clients, users & patrons first, then start charging them later, like $30,000 for a small library, are you ?

did not think you were so suggesting but just want to confirm ...

in its own haphazard chaotic higgledy-piggledy way, cmf forum also provides a democratization of knowledge, don't U think.

i like chaos myself


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Salman believes in the open source philosophy so I seriously doubt that day would ever come


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Causalien said:


> *Maybe whiz kids are going to be our next social phenomena that's going to cause a lot of headaches. Intellectually superior*, but socially... I am generalizing of course.


Deutschland! Deutschland..uber alles...we are superior over all!

Not that long ago..somebody was touting the horn about his "master race"
too!
What about the rest of the school dropouts with no jobs and no prospect
of jobs?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Khan did a TED Talk a while back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTFEUsudhfs


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## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

He did a Reddit AMA too.

What a guy. He should win a Nobel for his efforts. 

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ntsco/i_am_salman_khan_founder_of_khan_academyama/


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> hey cause i looked up the Khan academy, never heard of it before.
> 
> from their website i thought to myself, hmmmn who's paying for this ?
> 
> ...


The guy is genuine. I've been following him since he started with 10 videos of first year engineering classes, then some videos on the basis of finances during the 2008 crisis. 

It was a one man operation with a website that looked like Craigslist and he sustained himself from encouragements from early adopters like us who cheered him on. Bill gate's children uses Khan and are one of the first big backers early on (not monetary at the beginning). Having Bill's endorsement sealed his rise to fame in the tech industry and the videos expanded into all sorts of classes related to tech. I stopped checking last year and went back after they got funding. The expansion in topic afterwards is mind blowing.

Children of people in the tech industry (generalizing early adopters) who uses Khan faces problems in classes because they are usually far more advanced than their peers. It's not unusual that I hear these kids tackling calculus while still in highschool. And this is only 6 years after founding. When most people only started hearing about it in 2008 and a structured way of learning developed (i.e. easier courses to build the foundation leading up to college level classes). Imaging a kid born today that is motivated that gets to hook up to Khan academy since the beginning of his education. I will expect grade 6 kids to tackle calculus in about 10 years now that this name is out there.

Although it's great, Khan needs to steer the ship in the correct direction once money gets involved. I am not sure what will happen once they start charging and needing to self sustain. If it's like wikipedia, it'll just be annoying for about 2 months in a year asking for donations, but still annoying (Khan doesn't have the stare of death, so I don't know how he's going to force us to donate). I think Stanford's business model will be viable. Their recent test of online AI class is a big success and I learned a lot from participating. They are thinking to charge people to get a certificate at the end of a course (Maybe to take the test to get certified) while offering the classes for free. This is possible because overhead is minimal in online classes, but it does make one question the future prospect of teacher's jobs.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Causalien said:


> This is possible because overhead is minimal in online classes, but it does make one question the future prospect of teacher's jobs.


There is no doubt that Khan has a tremendous storehouse of intellectual property. I think teachers need to delegate to Khan what is done well there and then focus on filling the gaps.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

cause + others, thank you so much for the info.

(sidebar topic: cmf forum's uber-gracious 7-day-trading wonder seems to have had a fazzectomy.)


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I went over to website and checked out a video on evolution. My son was watching too. Awesome. 

As someone who's always just loved to learn "stuff" for no better reason than to know it, I'll be going over there. I rejoice to no longer have to look for used university text books at the nearest Value Village

You know if you really think about education it's kind of broken. After a certain point you have to pay to learn, in my case the teacher really slows you down, then after a certain period of time you take a test to get a paper.

I can assure you that smart people will love this... Now if only we could get tests and papers. And I'm not talking about the fake paper degrees you get on the internet. After all why on earth should you spend 4-5 years in school to get talked at about something you already know.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

If people only paid for testing/exams, schools would make a lot less money. The way it is now, most students don't do any due diligence, if they figure out they don't like what they picked a week or two later, it's likely past any reasonable refund period so no matter what the school makes a handsome profit and the student is likely to tough out the rest of the boring course and teacher or else their grades get hammered.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Khan Academy is great. My only gripe is that they didn't use a professional voice actor. His voice is okay for shorter periods, but to listen to it for hour after hour, they should have gone with professionals.


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