# Mass terrorist murder in London, Ontario



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The largest mass murders in our cities history happened last Sunday evening, in a islamaphobe terrorist attack.

Today, PM Trudeau came to London to pay his respects. I heard Doug Ford is also here.

We must root out anti-Muslim sentiment wherever it appears. It is ugly and dangerous.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Perhaps the driver had relatives in France, you will never know what was the reason.
A 19 tonne cargo truck was deliberately driven into crowdscelebrating Bastille Day on the Promenade des Anglais in Nice. The driver was Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel, a Tunisian resident of France. 87 people were killed. Police officials said he shouted “Allahu akbar” before he was shot by police.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes, a horrible terrorist attack in London. Police have to become much better at finding these terrorists before they commit mass murders.

We don't know all the details yet, but I wonder if the attacker might be a right wing extremist/ white supremacist. These kinds of attacks have been on the rise in US & Canada since about 2016-2017, largely targeting Muslim, Jewish, and black victims.



sags said:


> We must root out anti-Muslim sentiment wherever it appears. It is ugly and dangerous.


You don't have to look very far sags. It's repeated on message forums and back when we had a Hot Button section, was part of the recurring daily chatter.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

There is a great deal of hate and racism in Canada. People do not like to admit it. It is on and under the surface. It can be colour, race, faith, language sexual orientation...or a combination.. You name it. Seems to me to be rooted in fear and jealousy. 

I have seen enough of of in private by various white people who like to wear their Christianity on the sleeves. But it is more that a little hollow. They are the ones that want to limit immigration to, among other things, white Europeans, Christian faith...what euphemistically call 'western values. I believe it will take a generation to change.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

sags said:


> The largest mass murders in our cities history happened last Sunday evening, in a islamaphobe terrorist attack.
> 
> Today, PM Trudeau came to London to pay his respects. I heard Doug Ford is also here.
> 
> We must root out anti-Muslim sentiment wherever it appears. It is ugly and dangerous.


It's not clear to me that this was a hate crime or terrorist attack. People are jumping to conclusions, or exploiting the tragedy for political ends.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Yeah, it all makes absolutely no sense.
The witnesses did say that truck was revving up though. 
Either premeditation or complete panic, mistaking the pedals, etc. 
Hopefully more facts come out soon and if it was targeted he can rot in prison


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> It's not clear to me that this was a hate crime or terrorist attack. People are jumping to conclusions, or exploiting the tragedy for political ends.


We definitely have to see more details. An officer initially reported that the suspect was wearing a vest that appeared to be "like body armour", which I think is one reason many are suspecting this was a deliberate act of violence.

Then again, police have been known to make mistakes.

The description of the suspect as a "quiet, friendly, home-schooled Christian kid" does make me wonder what kind of values and influences (perhaps even internet radicalization) he might have been under. A religious person who is isolated from society in their formative years MAY not be open-minded to changes in society. For some parents, that's one point of home-schooling; to insulate the child from society's changing values.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The largest mass murders in our cities history happened last Sunday evening, in a islamaphobe terrorist attack.
> 
> Today, PM Trudeau came to London to pay his respects. I heard Doug Ford is also here.
> 
> We must root out anti-Muslim sentiment wherever it appears. It is ugly and dangerous.


How about we root out ALL RACISM?


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Neighbors of the guy said he was always spouting off some anti-Muslim sayings. 

He was also in conflict with his neighbors in the building because of his tendency for loud video games.

Police and witnesses say he was wearing body armor and a helmet of some sort.

I don't think there is any doubt that it was a deliberate attack on the Muslim family.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Neighbors of the guy said he was always spouting off some anti-Muslim sayings.
> 
> He was also in conflict with his neighbors in the building because of his tendency for loud video games.
> 
> ...


Yeah, sounds like an *******.

Assuming he did it, throw him out.

Also if the neighbours are complaining about 'loud video games' he's either a super *******, or they're being selectively quoted.
FYI Most serious gamers use headsets.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

If this little being isn't insane, then he's just pure evil. Labelling him as a "terrorist" doesn't justify that much hate to kill someone - here an entire family. And I'm sure he isn't going to be the last of his kind in that cult.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Wasn't he going to/from air-gun/paintball game? Aren't body armours used for those?
Figure we will find out soon enough. When you are a terrorist you don't hide your beliefs - you promote them. He will be given a day in court


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

The big concern here is that it is unlikely he will get a fair trial.
The Prime Minister himself came down and declared him guilty, the media is full of stories how hateful and evil he is.

For those who say it isn't terrorism, it most likely is.
If he drove his vehicle into them because they were muslim, it was a hate crime, and it was using violence to further a political agenda. 
We all pretty much agree this was "bad terrorism"

Remember, you have to commit "good terrorism" to get off without consequences.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

No worries.
It is Canada - human rights here are only optional. Including a right to fair and due process


----------



## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

Because they were Muslim, it's assumed to be anti-muslim terrorism. However, how would he have known their religion? They might have been Hindu, for all he knew. It's not clear what his _intent _was. Maybe he hates East Indians, and didn't realize they were Pakistani.
The real need is to root out all racism, as Matt said.


----------



## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Don't tell me the killer had a bad day.

Quebec has a law that forbids government employees from wearing religious symbols, Catholics are exempt.

And the Quebec Premier says there is no systemic racism.


----------



## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Perhaps the driver had relatives in France, you will never know what was the reason.
> A 19 tonne cargo truck was deliberately driven into crowdscelebrating Bastille Day on the Promenade des Anglais in Nice. The driver was Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel, a Tunisian resident of France. 87 people were killed. Police officials said he shouted “Allahu akbar” before he was shot by police.


If someone eats dogshit that doesn't mean you will have to eat it too.


----------



## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

andrewf said:


> It's not clear to me that this was a hate crime or terrorist attack. People are jumping to conclusions, or exploiting the tragedy for political ends.


If a Muslim had done a such thing, you would definitely call him a terrorist but now you are debating if it is a hate crime or terrorist attack because he is a white boy?


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> The big concern here is that it is unlikely he will get a fair trial.
> The Prime Minister himself came down and declared him guilty, the media is full of stories how hateful and evil he is.


I have exactly same opinion. "
Almost immediately


> PM have called the killings a 'terrorist attack'


 Really?! Not only without trail, even without investigation, after 1st questioning. 
After ...
_"There is evidence that this was a planned, premeditated act, motivated by hate. It is believed that these victims were targeted because they were Muslim," said Detective Superintendent Paul Waight of the London Police. "There is no known previous connection between the suspect and the victims." _

No doubt that Trudeau and his government are trying to fit it into their political agenda and limit freedom of speech


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Tostig said:


> Don't tell me the killer had a bad day.
> 
> Quebec has a law that forbids government employees from wearing religious symbols, Catholics are exempt.
> 
> And the Quebec Premier says there is no systemic racism.


All government employees should be banned from wearing religious symbols, like in QC and in France. Never heard that Catholics are exempt and what kind of "symbols" Catholic wear?!


----------



## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

Why does a terrorist need a fair trail when he killed four innocent people in brought daylight? He should be grateful that Canada doesn't have a death penalty and now tax payers will have to pay for his free lodging and food. Bring back death penalty in Canada.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> When you are a terrorist you don't hide your beliefs - you promote them.


Actually it's very weird that 20 yo guy didn't have any social media accounts...no Instagram, no Twitter, no FB.... Very strange for "terrorist"


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

scorpion_ca said:


> Why does a terrorist need a fair trail when he killed four innocent people in brought daylight? He should be grateful that Canada doesn't have a death penalty and now tax payers will have to pay for his free lodging and food. Bring back death penalty in Canada.


Are you seriously asking "Why does a terrorist need a fair trail "?! Wow! Without "fair trail" every guilty in ftal road accident can be called and sentence as a terrorist ..
Sorry, but in democratic country , even Adolf Eichmann had a fair trail!


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

scorpion_ca said:


> Why does a terrorist need a fair trail when he killed four innocent people in brought daylight? He should be grateful that Canada doesn't have a death penalty and now tax payers will have to pay for his free lodging and food. Bring back death penalty in Canada.


He need a fair trial to see if he actually is a terrorist who murdered 4 people.

maybe he fell asleep.
Maybe he sufferred a stroke. 
Maybe there was a mechanical failure. 
Maybe he's mentally ill. 

If you're concerned about the accused having a fair trial, simply to confirm he actually committed a crime, that's a big issue.


----------



## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

MrMatt said:


> He need a fair trial to see if he actually is a terrorist who murdered 4 people.
> 
> maybe he fell asleep.
> Maybe he sufferred a stroke.
> ...


Would you think the same way you are thinking now if he was a Muslim instead of a White boy?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> All government employees should be banned from wearing religious symbols, like in QC and in France. Never heard that Catholics are exempt and what kind of "symbols" Catholic wear?!


I'm okay with a ban on prominent or even visible religious symbols when you are working in a professional context on behalf of the government of Canada.
I do not think that government employees should promote religious or political (or many other) views, while operating in their official capacity as government employees.

I don't care if you're wearing magical underwear, as long as you don't display it.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

scorpion_ca said:


> Would you think the same way you are thinking now if he was a Muslim instead of a White boy?


Yes, of course.
Why would you even ask such a question?

The idea that everyone should be given a fair trial is a fundamental aspect of justice.
Our legal system has a lot of flaws, but it really is (or should be) an attempt to find justice.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Yes, of course.
> Why would you even ask such a question?
> 
> The idea that everyone should be given a fair trial is a fundamental aspect of justice.
> Our legal system has a lot of flaws, but it really is (or should be) an attempt to find justice.


100%!
As I mentioned before, even Adolph Eichmann "major organiser of the Holocaust " was giving fair trail , even though he just could've been killed in Argentina


----------



## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

MrMatt said:


> Yes, of course.
> Why would you even ask such a question?


The reason I asked that question is that I noticed previously when a Muslim killed, we call him terrorist right way but when a White person killed, we start to think maybe he was mentally ill like the way you are thinking now. It seems to me hypocrisy at its best.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

scorpion_ca said:


> when a White person


And “a white person” can’t be a muslim?


----------



## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

Ukrainiandude said:


> And “a white person” can’t be a muslim?


I think you got my point. There is no need for nit picking.

*This is the last post in this matter as it doesn't make sense to waste valuable time arguing with unknown people on internet. *


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The London Jewish community stands in solidarity with everyone in the community to demand an end to racist Islamaphobia.





__





Temple Israel of London







www.templeisraellondon.ca


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

scorpion_ca said:


> The reason I asked that question is that I noticed previously when a Muslim killed, we call him terrorist right way but when a White person killed, we start to think maybe he was mentally ill like the way you are thinking now. It seems to me hypocrisy at its best.


I am not thinking that, let me quote what I said in post #13.
"For those who say it isn't terrorism, it most likely is."

That being said, I STILL want him to have a fair trial. 
There is no conflict here.

I think everyone accused of a crime (or civil actions actually) deserves the right to a fair trial. 
Even people who are accused of very bad things are entitled to a fair trial.

If they actually did them a fair trial shouldn't be problematic to anyone. 
If you don't want this person to have a fair trial, are you that afraid he might not be found to have committed a crime?

Just to be clear I never thought he was criminally not responsible due to mental illness, or having a stroke etc. Just those are convenient examples of how he could possibly not be responsible.

Personally I think intentionally killing someone like this is a type of mental illness, however it isn't one that removes criminal liability (IMO).


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Who says he won't have a fair trial ?

He will have a fair trial but anyone who thinks he will walk out of a courtroom as a free man, has their head jammed way up their arse.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Who says he won't have a fair trial ?
> 
> He will have a fair trial but anyone who thinks he will walk out of a courtroom as a free man, has their head jammed way up their arse.


I'm concerned with the PM publicly proclaiming his guilt he'll have a strong argument that every potential juror is biased against him.

yeah, I don't understand why someone would be scared he's going to get off... the courts in Canada aren't that bad.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> Who says he won't have a fair trial ?
> 
> He will have a fair trial but anyone who thinks he will walk out of a courtroom as a free man, has their head jammed way up their arse.


PM saying that he is guilty of terrorist act even before terrorism charges are laid is exact opposite of fair trial. In fact, if it turns out this wasn't a terrorist act, you are looking at government being sued and taxpayers being forced to pay for it again.

I didn't see anyone advocating for him to walk free either.
If you kill someone, even by accident, you still go to jail.
If you kill someone intentionally, you still go to jail, just for longer time period.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I'm concerned with the PM publicly proclaiming his guilt he'll have a strong argument that every potential juror is biased against him.
> 
> yeah, I don't understand why someone would be scared he's going to get off... the courts in Canada aren't that bad.


If the case goes to trial, the prosecutors will open their case before the jury by proclaiming the defendant's guilt.

It will be the defence lawyer's job to force the prosecutor to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

It will be the jury's job for them to unanimously decide if the prosecution proved the defendant's guilt.

What Trudeau or anyone else said a year or two earlier is of no consequence.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> PM saying that he is guilty of terrorist act even before terrorism charges are laid is exact opposite of fair trial. In fact, if it turns out this wasn't a terrorist act, you are looking at government being sued and taxpayers being forced to pay for it again.
> 
> I didn't see anyone advocating for him to walk free either.
> If you kill someone, even by accident, you still go to jail.
> If you kill someone intentionally, you still go to jail, just for longer time period.


There are other options....For example,
If you kill someone and you are mentally sick . you are going to closed mental institution

P.S. Reading about thus guy, last option is rather possible








Christian terrorist who mowed down Muslim family ‘was laughing’ as he got out of blood covered truck


Killer is said to have told taxi driver to film his arrest




www.independent.co.uk


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Semantics. You can replace 'jail' with 'closed institution'. You get locked up anyway. And I don't really agree with that line of defense either. Believe it is abused. It is beyond the topic though.
PM is helping the defense and ultimately, as always will cost the taxpayers.

"Leah West, a professor at Carleton University’s Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, said to use a criminal term, like terrorism, without enough evidence, means there now may be pressure in the justice system to follow through with terrorism charges. "


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Regarding "fair trial" ... Do you realize how much pressure will be on the doctors who gonna do his mental evaluation after Trudeau made his verdict?! If doctors find him mental, Trudeau will look idiot.
Again, for Trudeau political agenda , it should be terrorist and preferable member of "right wing white supermatist organization"


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

gibor365 said:


> Regarding "fair trial" ... Do you realize how much pressure will be on the doctors who gonna do his mental evaluation after Trudeau made his verdict?! If doctors find him mental, Trudeau will look idiot.
> Again, for Trudeau political agenda , it should be terrorist and preferable member of "right wing white supremist organization"


Exactly. To make a statement as Trudeau did, without any information on the person's mental health or any knowledge of mechanical problems with the vehicle is unconscionable. It reveals how Trudeau reacts without thinking. Such a fool - you just don't do that as his positional influence has tainted any meaningful investigation and resolve.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Semantics. You can replace 'jail' with 'closed institution'. You get locked up anyway.


Only until the illness is addressed.
Vince Li was a free man less than a decade after cutting off someones head on a Greyhound bus.

Myself I think it's tricky.

I think it can be abused.
If the mental illness is real then they're really not responsible.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

scorpion_ca said:


> He should be grateful that Canada doesn't have a death penalty and now tax payers will have to pay for his free lodging and food. Bring back death penalty in Canada.


Homicide rate doesn't depend on death penalty or laws about weapon owning... In US , in many states there is death penalty and Homicide rate is 5.35, in Canada with no death penalty Homicide rate is 1.68, in Israel, with no death penalty and more than half of population having real weapon , Homicide rate is 1.36.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Here we go .....Hysteria is starting again








Halifax woman says London, Ont. attack shows how real Islamophobia is - Halifax | Globalnews.ca


Community organizer Masuma Khan said 'the kind of violence that Muslims face is justified based off of stereotypes of Muslims.'




globalnews.ca


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Only until the illness is addressed.
> Vince Li was a free man less than a decade after cutting off someones head on a Greyhound bus.
> 
> Myself I think it's tricky.
> ...


True. Until the illness is determined to be cured.
Anyway, separation of judicial from executive branch has clearly been violated by PM.
Hopefully the jury and legal system can put PM and his incompetence on ignore and follow the fair process. Don't need any cases of mistrial here


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

There have been a series of mass attacks over the years which give Muslims a good reason to be anxious. There is a pattern here

In 2017, a gunman killed 6 people and wounded 5 more in a Quebec City mosque attack
In 2017, a man in Oregon killed 2 people on a train who were trying to defend a woman from an Islamophobic attack
In 2017, a man in London UK drove a van into worshippers leaving a mosque, killing one
In 2019, an Australian gunman killed 51 people and injured 40 in Christchurch New Zealand, attacking mosques

That attack in Oregon hit close to home, because I frequently took this particular train. Every time the train stopped at the station with the murders, I thought of that MAGA white supremacist knifing the two men who were just trying to protect the woman. It caused me a lot of stress.

That is the point of terrorism after all. It's someone with an ideology (in this case, white supremacy and trying to keep "white Christian nations" pure) who uses violence to force their ideology on society.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

gibor365 said:


> All government employees should be banned from wearing religious symbols, like in QC and in France. Never heard that Catholics are exempt and what kind of "symbols" Catholic wear?!


necklaces depicting the crucifixion or a Cross are popular. As are rosary bracelets.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

In 2017, the Conservatives and Bloc voted against a Liberal proposed anti-Islamaphobia law. Conservative leader Erin O'Toole voted against the law.

Now they make public statements against Islamaphobia. Maybe today they will support a new law.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> necklaces depicting the crucifixion or a Cross are popular. As are rosary bracelets.


Money, I'm not talking about necklaces . I also have a necklace with David Star under my shirt .... I'm mostly talking about attire...


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> In 2017, the Conservatives and Bloc voted against a Liberal proposed anti-Islamaphobia law. Conservative leader Erin O'Toole voted against the law.
> 
> Now they make public statements against Islamaphobia. Maybe today they will support a new law.


This is a ridiculous law!


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> In 2017, the Conservatives and Bloc voted against a Liberal proposed anti-Islamaphobia law. Conservative leader Erin O'Toole voted against the law.
> 
> Now they make public statements against Islamaphobia. Maybe today they will support a new law.


Yeah, that wasn't a law. Get your facts straight
Discrimination on base of religion is already illegal.

It was a motion to condemn. And motions to condemn are absolutely useless. 
Just ask Trudeau. He refused to condemn genocide of muslims


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Yeah, that wasn't a law. Get your facts straight
> Discrimination on base of religion is already illegal.


Exactly! So why to create specific law about Islamophobia?!

France , who had extreme wave of Islamic antisemitism last decade introduced a very good law *"On 20 February 2019, President Macron said that France would recognise anti-Zionism as a form of anti-Semitism. *"


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> There have been a series of mass attacks over the years which give Muslims a good reason to be anxious. There is a pattern here
> 
> In 2017, a gunman killed 6 people and wounded 5 more in a Quebec City mosque attack
> In 2017, a man in Oregon killed 2 people on a train who were trying to defend a woman from an Islamophobic attack
> ...


and how about





Antisemitism in Canada - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org









Antisemitism in 21st-century France - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




you can check other countries and will find a lot ...

Canada is also famous for signpost "No Dogs and Jews" that existed until late 50's..

_Statistics Canada found police-reported* hate crimes against Jewish people accounted for the highest number of religious-based hate crimes in the country in 2019 at 296 incidents, while religious-based hate crimes against Muslims tallied at 181.* ..._
2021 is going to beat all previous years, as only in May 2021, there were more anti-Semitic actions than for whole 2020


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

How about








List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel in 2021 - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





"Between 10-18 May, during the 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis, more than 3,440 rockets were fired toward Sderot, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Jerusalem and other communities. "

Where is the international outcry?


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> How about
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Internationally, including Canada (and my street!), we got violent pro-Palestinian rallies and antisemitism in action!


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

gibor365 said:


> Money, I'm not talking about necklaces . I also have a necklace with David Star under my shirt .... I'm mostly talking about attire...


You asked about symbols….I thought a cross or Star of David were perfect examples of a symbol.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> We definitely have to see more details. An officer initially reported that the suspect was wearing a vest that appeared to be "like body armour", which I think is one reason many are suspecting this was a deliberate act of violence.
> 
> Then again, police have been known to make mistakes.
> 
> The description of the suspect as a "quiet, friendly, home-schooled Christian kid" does make me wonder what kind of values and influences (perhaps even internet radicalization) he might have been under. A religious person who is isolated from society in their formative years MAY not be open-minded to changes in society. For some parents, that's one point of home-schooling; to insulate the child from society's changing values.


Did you miss that his friend and co-worker is an Iranian lapsed Muslim, and said that he never had a problem?

People are being very irresponsible, engaging in race baiting.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1402278025018937349


> "Our Canada is a place where you can't walk down the streets if you wear a hijab because you will be killed—this is our Canada. We can't deny it," says Jagmeet Singh re: London attack. "How many more families will be killed before we do something?" the NDP leader asks.


This idiot has no business getting anywhere near the PMO. If anyone had any remaining doubts.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

scorpion_ca said:


> If a Muslim had done a such thing, you would definitely call him a terrorist but now you are debating if it is a hate crime or terrorist attack because he is a white boy?


Uh... no? People looked at the ethnicity of the victims and assumed it was a hate crime and called it terrorism. We don't know anything conclusive about his motivations. Race baiting is not a good thing to engage in.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

scorpion_ca said:


> Would you think the same way you are thinking now if he was a Muslim instead of a White boy?


Muslim isn't a race, it's a religious affiliation. There are white Muslims. 

People are so damned muddled on this topic.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I'm concerned with the PM publicly proclaiming his guilt he'll have a strong argument that every potential juror is biased against him.
> 
> yeah, I don't understand why someone would be scared he's going to get off... the courts in Canada aren't that bad.


Yes, there is absolutely no risk he won't face full brunt of the law for his crimes.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> Regarding "fair trial" ... Do you realize how much pressure will be on the doctors who gonna do his mental evaluation after Trudeau made his verdict?! If doctors find him mental, Trudeau will look idiot.
> Again, for Trudeau political agenda , it should be terrorist and preferable member of "right wing white supermatist organization"


The standard for 'not criminally responsible' is very high indeed, and will just land you in a much-worse psychiatric facility.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> Here we go .....Hysteria is starting again
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Much hay is being made. This incident will be milked for all it's worth, reality be damned.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

It was a terrorist hate crime targeting a Muslim family.

PM Trudeau would have been advised by the investigating police, so he was accurate in his description of the attack.

_In an interview with Global News, Chief Steve Williams of the London Police Service was reluctant to disclose the evidence police had gathered, but said it was quickly apparent Nathaniel Veltman had targeted a Muslim family.

“It was pretty clear from the investigation that occurred immediately at the scene, and like I said, there’s a number of witnesses,” Williams said.
“Then obviously we, as you know, arrested the accused a short distance away and we recovered the vehicle.

“*So without getting into the details of what evidence came from all that, we were fairly comfortable at an early stage attributing this to being a hate-motivated crime, and as I indicated, this family was targeted because of their Islamic faith.”*_










Police tracing London attack suspect’s ‘online footprint,’ looking at terrorism charges, chief says | Globalnews.ca


“We really have to be careful with the terrorism charge," Chief Steve Williams told Global News reporter Jeff Semple.




globalnews.ca


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

After reading more context from the London chief of police, I am satisfied to take his word for it that they have good reason to believe it was a hate crime. The day it happened though, there seemed to be quite a fog of misinformation. 



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/london-muslim-family-attack-police-chief-explains-1.6059198



I still do not believe it is responsible to be whipping people into a frenzy and saying absurd things like it is not safe for Muslims to be on the street because they will be killed. I live in a community that is 12% Muslim--this statement is so bonkers I can't even seriously address that anyone believes my neighbours should be hiding under their beds. They have no more to fear that the rest of us did after the incel van attack in Toronto a few years ago. Pitting Muslim Canadians against t he rest of the country is not helpful. We should be expressing solidarity and support for the senseless tragedy, rather that fixating on the ultimately irrelevant workings of the perpetrator's mind.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> Did you miss that his friend and co-worker is an Iranian lapsed Muslim, and said that he never had a problem?


That doesn't mean anything


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> That doesn't mean anything


It would tend to put a damper on the idea he is a member of the London KKK.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> It would tend to put a damper on the idea he is a member of the London KKK.


I think it's pretty clear he's not that. But remember, terrorism in the modern age is a different beast. It can involve online radicalization and people can be (very quietly and privately) absorbing material from extremists, online.

Anyway, it's too early to know what really happened in this guy's case.


----------



## 307169 (May 24, 2015)

Maybe JT shouldn't comment, but it doesn't really matter. Ultimately, this case will be trial by judges alone as it is too public (all over the news), so there are no way to select an unbiased jury. This will happen no matter what politicians say.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> You asked about symbols….I thought a cross or Star of David were perfect examples of a symbol.


If you wear it under your shirt (that nobody sees - it's perfectly fine), but attire like burqa , turban or shtreimel etc should be banned


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Did you miss that his friend and co-worker is an Iranian lapsed Muslim, and said that he never had a problem?
> 
> People are being very irresponsible, engaging in race baiting.
> 
> ...


He is a real retard and I was shocked when he became the leader of 3rd biggest Canadian party... Does he knows at all how hijab looks like?!


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Muslim isn't a race, it's a religious affiliation. There are white Muslims.
> 
> People are so damned muddled on this topic.


Exactly! That what I wanted to write , but you were ahead of me . Religion and race are 2 completely different things! There are tons of black Christians and Jews and white Muslims. My friend, probably "the whitest guy" I know, South African Afrikaner (whose whole family was killed by ANC thugs) converted to Islam before getting married with his Tunisian wife


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> The standard for 'not criminally responsible' is very high indeed, and will just land you in a much-worse psychiatric facility.


andrew, I know very well what psychiatric facility is ... my point was different....


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I think it's pretty clear he's not that. But remember, terrorism in the modern age is a different beast. It can involve online radicalization and people can be (very quietly and privately) absorbing material from extremists, online.
> 
> Anyway, it's too early to know what really happened in this guy's case.


james , be realistic.... this 20 y.o. guy had no education, no any social media accounts, played "very loud" video games and worked part-time on eggs sorting facility //// Let's make him some commander of KKK or right wing terrorist organization.... (Hello Joseph Stalin LOL)


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> It was a terrorist hate crime targeting a Muslim family.
> 
> PM Trudeau would have been advised by the investigating police, so he was accurate in his description of the attack.
> 
> ...


There is significant difference between terrorism and hate-crime. So far there is a claim from chief of police that it is a hate-crime. Until the evidence is presented it isn't clear what it is, but there is no reason to not believe Chief Williams.
He didn't mention any evidence showing it is a terrorist attack though. Where did you get that idea from?


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I would only call it a terrorist attack if it turns out that he was ideologically motivated, such as MAGA / white supremacist internet content, or right wing extremism, and the American far-right.

I suspect that will be the case, but it remains to be seen. Police will have to inspect his computers, search his home, etc.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Exactly. Until they find evidence it was a terrorist attack, PM should keep his mouth shut on the subject not to interfere with judicial process


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Johnny_kar said:


> Maybe JT shouldn't comment, but it doesn't really matter. Ultimately, this case will be trial by judges alone as it is too public (all over the news), so there are no way to select an unbiased jury. This will happen no matter what politicians say.


Yeah, because that whole right to a jury trial shouldn't exist when the PM feels like spouting off.
Really what are your rights when people want to score political points.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Is it any different than when police hold a press conference about an arrest and lay out guns and ammunition etc on a table for the media to take pictures ?

Social media is here and people will talk about crimes on it. We have to deal with it now and juries do so all the time.

Describing the crime as a hate crime or a terrorist attack or both is highly subjective and left up to the police and prosecutors.

There have been many cases where people disagreed with the decision of the crown attorney on the laying of charges.

I think this is a terrorist hate crime because he targeted Muslims (hate crime) and he did it in a public place (terrorism).

Others can disagree on the designation, based on their own perception.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Personally, I am in favor of important trials being broadcast to the public.

If we are going to allow media to tweet and write about what happened in court......we should be able to judge for ourselves without the media's bias filtering the coverage.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I would only call it a terrorist attack if it turns out that he was ideologically motivated, such as MAGA / white supremacist internet content, or right wing extremism, and the American far-right.
> 
> I suspect that will be the case, but it remains to be seen. Police will have to inspect his computers, search his home, etc.


Or he could be a far left Nazi, who knows, that's what the trial is for.

Personally I think if you're trying to randomly kill people because of a religious, racial or political opposition to them it's a both a hate crime and terrorism.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Muslim women are coming forward and saying they are constantly being harassed or belittled for their form of dress.

I suspect the same happens to Asians, Jews, and even handicapped people as well. It happens to a lot of people who look "different".

The problem is there are politicians, leaders, and media who promote such feelings to pander for support among sub groups of voters.

Look no further than the Trump Republicans for evidence of that. As a society we need to be steadfast in calling it out, regardless of whom it is directed at.

Some people simply don't get that the "old ways" are no longer acceptable. What was acceptable in the past is not today.

We live.........and we learn.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The police are investigating the suspect's past social media and internet connections. Facebook removed his webpage soon after the incident.

There are many websites, including gamer chat rooms, that don't show up in internet search engines. Those sites block the search bots from crawling the sites.

Then there is the dark web........where all kinds of nefarious stuff is discussed. Most of us don't even know how to access such websites and have no interest in doing so anyways.

In short, we don't know yet if the suspect was known on some sites and will see if the police can dig them up if they are out there.

One problem is that other members of those kinds of websites or chat rooms aren't likely to come forward with information.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> As a society we need to be steadfast in calling it out, regardless of whom it is directed at.


Absolutely.
But some people steadfastly refuse to recognize racism even when it is put right in front of them.



> We live.........and we learn.


Hopefully you will learn too.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Then there is the dark web........where all kinds of nefarious stuff is discussed. Most of us don't even know how to access such websites and have no interest in doing so anyways.


There's also the public web and press releases.
Some people publicly tout all kinds of nefarious stuff.

You don't need to dig into the far reaches of the internet


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

sags said:


> Personally, I am in favor of important trials being broadcast to the public.
> 
> If we are going to allow media to tweet and write about what happened in court......we should be able to judge for ourselves without the media's bias filtering the coverage.


The court transcripts are available. Why does it need to be a television spectacle?


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Seems the perpetrator has some history of being medicated for mental health issues.





__





CTV News | Canada News | Top Stories


Canada news, COVID-19 news and headlines from around the world. Live breaking news, national news, sports, business, entertainment, health, politics and more from CTVNews.ca. Watch breaking news videos, from Canada, and around the world. Daily top stories and updated news headlines.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> The court transcripts are available. Why does it need to be a television spectacle?


Because most people are functionally illiterate, or don't want to bother reading.
Personally I prefer reading as it is WAY faster.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

It is expensive and cumbersome to acquire court transcripts, and it is impossible to judge the credibility of witnesses without observing them.

Court transcripts would also not be available until after the trial is complete, so they are reduntant except for the purposes of appeal.

As it stands today, we are reading transcripts in real time.........but unfortunately they are whatever the media decides to transcribe.

Court trial reporting by Twitter leaves a lot to be desired.

Incidentally, the courts are already open to the public. You just have to get there early and hope to claim a seat.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> It is expensive and cumbersome to acquire court transcripts, and it is impossible to judge the credibility of witnesses without observing them.


That's why we hire professionals to run trials.

Decisions are free, and include a decent summary of the case.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The suspect is being held in EMDC......and I bet he isn't laughing now.

_And I woke up and looked around me.....at the four grey walls that surround me._


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

andrewf said:


> Seems the perpetrator has some history of being medicated for mental health issues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’ll be used by his lawyers.


----------



## 307169 (May 24, 2015)

MrMatt said:


> Yeah, because that whole right to a jury trial shouldn't exist when the PM feels like spouting off.
> Really what are your rights when people want to score political points.


I am not excusing the PM, I am just stating the obvious. 
A private phone call by the PM to the friends and family of victims will be more helpful anyway.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

It is imperative that Canada's leaders stand up against racism and denounce violence.

All the party leaders were in attendance at the mosque vigil.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> That’ll be used by his lawyers.


Perhaps. Mental illness is not a 'get out of jail free' card.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

sags said:


> It is imperative that Canada's leaders stand up against racism and denounce violence.
> 
> All the party leaders were in attendance at the mosque vigil.


Show me anyone who is arguing otherwise. This is just grandstanding. I haven't seen a single person express support for the murderer in this case.

People who say that all Canadians are responsible for the acts of this one individual are engaging in the same pernicious tarring with a broad brush they complain about when Muslims are saddled with guilt by association for Islamic terrorist attacks. I bear no responsibility for the actions of this individual.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> Is it any different than when police hold a press conference about an arrest and lay out guns and ammunition etc on a table for the media to take pictures ?
> 
> Social media is here and people will talk about crimes on it. We have to deal with it now and juries do so all the time.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Describing the crime as a hate crime or a terrorist attack or both is highly subjective and left up to the police and prosecutors - not for politicians to try score points off of it.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

good article








AGAR: Hate the action, not the illness


Do we have sympathy for the mentally ill or not?




torontosun.com


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

If the sentiment in the article is accurate, perhaps we should be building more mental health facilities and closing down all the prisons.

Personally, I think the vast majority of people in prison have some mental issues or they wouldn't be there.


----------



## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

I moved off-topic political posts to the Politics thread


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Thought this should be shared (even it's behind a paywall). I admire Mr. Bennett's (surprising) frankness on this issue. But at the end of the day, nothing changes despite the multiple calls to "action"... yup, action of the lips.

‘White supremacy is as old as Canada’: How a history of hate set the stage for the London attack

*



'White supremacy is as old as Canada': Southwestern Ontario's long history with racism set the stage for attack

Click to expand...

*


> By Alex BoutilierOttawa Bureau
> Wendy GillisStaff Reporter
> Alyshah HashamCourts Reporter
> Sat., June 12, 2021 :
> ...


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Legal question:
if there is no terrorism charge, when Justin Trudeau is sued for slander, are the taxpayer responsible for payment of the penalty, or is he reliable as individual?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Legal question:
> if there is no terrorism charge, when Justin Trudeau is sued for slander, are the taxpayer responsible for payment of the penalty, or is he reliable as individual?


No slander suit.
The accused is poor and mentally ill, he has no chance at defending himself, let alone launching a suit against someone rich and powerful.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> Thought this should be shared (even it's behind a paywall). I admire Mr. Bennett's (surprising) frankness on this issue. But at the end of the day, nothing changes despite the multiple calls to "action"... yup, action of the lips.
> 
> ‘White supremacy is as old as Canada’: How a history of hate set the stage for the London attack


Trudeau is the most powerful racist in the country, and he's making it worse.
Also i think he's from Montreal, not SW Ontario.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Trudeau is the most powerful racist in the country, and he's making it worse.
> Also i think he's from Montreal, not SW Ontario.


 ... I'm not sure Trudeau is the "most powerful" guy in the country, let alone being a racist. So please explain how he is a racist. 

I don't care where he is from, as I'm sure there're racists in all corners (city/town) of this country. Just (far) more so in some corners than others. The news article explained it.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... I'm not sure Trudeau is the "most powerful" guy in the country, let alone being a racist. So please explain how he is a racist.
> 
> I don't care where he is from, as I'm sure there're racists in all corners (city/town) of this country. Just (far) more so in some corners than others. The news article explained it.


Trudeau is implementing systematic racial discrimination nationwide, and putting millions of taxpayer dollars behind it.
Nobody else can do that.
Also as the PM, he is in a position to steer public opinion and policy, both of which he is using to push racial division and discrimination.

That is why I suggest he is the most powerful racist in the country.
Can you identify a more powerful racist in Canada?


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Terrorism charges can be filed separately or at a later date, and may not comprise the original charges for the trial of the accused.

Given the penalties that the accused is facing and the overwhelming evidence, it may not be in the government's interest to pursue any additional charges.

Terrorism charges may apply but never be filed, due to the extra cost for which there would be no appreciable gain.

The suspect is going to spend the rest of his life in prison anyways.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

That doesn't excuse PM behavior.
Given his overall and evident lack of intelligence, I simply want to know whether I am, as a taxpayer, responsible not only for his economic ineptitude, but also liable to compensate victims of his potentially criminal behavior.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> *Trudeau is implementing systematic racial discrimination nationwide*, and putting millions of taxpayer dollars behind it.
> Nobody else can do that.
> Also as the PM, he is in a position to steer public opinion and policy, both of which he is using to push racial division and discrimination.
> 
> ...


 ... please support that claim.

Add answer to your *question*: Yes, my boss.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

damian13ster said:


> That doesn't excuse PM behavior.
> Given his overall and evident lack of intelligence, I simply want to know whether I am, as a taxpayer, responsible not only for his economic ineptitude, but also liable to compensate victims of his potentially criminal behavior.


That is your view but I don't think it carries much weight with other Canadians.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... please support that claim.
> 
> Add answer to your *question*: Yes, my boss.


Here ya go, just one example of millions of dollars in nationwide systematic racial discrimination.





__





Black Entrepreneurship Loan Fund - Canada.ca


On May 31, the Black Entrepreneurship Loan Fund started accepting applications from Black business owners and entrepreneurs. It seeks to address the specific systemic barriers Black business owners have too often faced when seeking financing. It also demonstrates the Government of Canada’s...




www.canada.ca





Now can you suggest another Canadian racist with this type of power? Or do you accept that is Trudeau one of the most powerful racists in the country?


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> That is your view but I don't think it carries much weight with other Canadians.


It isn't a view. It is a legal question that has an actual, objective answer. As a taxpayer, am I liable for Prime Minister's criminal actions, and settlements with his victims.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

_It seeks to address the systemic barriers to black business owners have too often faced when seeking financing._

There are no systemic barriers for financing experienced by white business owners, and never have been.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

damian13ster said:


> It isn't a view. It is a legal question that has an actual, objective answer


The question is based on false assumptions that most Canadians wouldn't support.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> _It seeks to address the systemic barriers to black business owners have too often faced when seeking financing._
> 
> There is no systemic barriers for financing experienced by white business owners.


Just as there are no legal barriers for other races.
If the problem is that there are crimes being committed, why don't we address that?

The solution to racism isn't more racism.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> The question is based on false assumptions that most Canadians wouldn't support.


It isn't - the question is purely legal one. Hence the use of 'a Prime Minister' vs 'The Prime Minister' - yes, I didn't have to ask that question with previous prime ministers, since this is the first one that has ethic violations in the history of the country, but the question itself is of a legal matter, and the answer is not dependent on who sits in the office.


If a crime is rising in your neighborhood, it is smart to evaluate your risk.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Here ya go, just one example of millions of dollars in nationwide systematic racial discrimination.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 ... there you go, attempting to twist things around. So who was Trudeau being racists against with this loan to Black people? White people?



> Now can you suggest another Canadian racist with this type of power? Or do you accept that is Trudeau one of the most powerful racists in the country?


 ... I accept neither. As added in my previous post, my boss is the most powerful racist to me. And she lives in Pickering.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

damian13ster said:


> It isn't - the question is purely legal one. Hence the use of 'a Prime Minister' vs 'The Prime Minister' - yes, I didn't have to ask that question with previous prime ministers, since this is the first one that has ethic violations in the history of the country, but the question itself is of a legal matter, and the answer is not dependent on who sits in the office.
> 
> 
> If a crime is rising in your neighborhood, it is smart to evaluate your risk.


Incoherent rambling doesn't qualify as the legal basis for a lawsuit.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> So who was Trudeau being racists against with this loan to Black people? White people?


?
He's discriminating by race. He's treating people differently because of their race. That's the definition of racism.

I'd argue he's being racist to everyone.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> Incoherent rambling doesn't qualify as the legal basis for a lawsuit.


Trudeau is a lucky man then!


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

They filed terrorism charges.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> They filed terrorism charges.


Let's hope they were filed for good reason and not because of a pressure.
“In this case, there’s a strong argument to make that there’s a public interest in charging terrorism,” she said. 
Still didn't find any links to any terrorist organizations. Ultimately it will still be a major jail time, but being acquitted from terrorism sounds much worse than 'didn't pursue the charges because he was going away for life anyway'


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Let's hope they were filed for good reason and not because of a pressure.


Public pressure is a good reason when you're a populist like Trump/Trudeau.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Public pressure is a good reason when you're a populist like Trump/Trudeau.


Yes, for Trump/Trudeau. Not for Canadians. Narcissists do tend to care about noone but themselves though.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Trudeau is implementing systematic racial discrimination nationwide, and putting millions of taxpayer dollars behind it.
> Nobody else can do that.
> Also as the PM, he is in a position to steer public opinion and policy, both of which he is using to push racial division and discrimination.
> 
> ...


This is a political tangent....


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> This is a political tangent....


The initial post was a call to wipe out a single form of racism.
"We must root out anti-Muslim sentiment wherever it appears. It is ugly and dangerous."

I think we should wipe out ALL racism.
Anti Muslim sentiment is a problem, but it is a small part of the larger issue of racism in Canada. 
Realitically if we got rid of 100% of all anti muslim sentiment, we'd still have a large racism problem.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

So Trudeau was right as per usual, and those who fretted and wept over his use of the word "terrorism" were wrong.....as per usual.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> So Trudeau was right as per usual, and those who fretted and wept over his use of the word "terrorism" were wrong.....as per usual.


How do you figure?
Innocence until proven guilty isn't a thing anymore in Canada?
So far only thing we know is he tied prosecutors' hands. Whether prosecutor will manage to still pull away a win is a question we won't find the answer to in couple of years.
What if the charges were introduced only because of political pressure and they will end up in acquittal? 
Then instead of having a murderer put away for hate crime you will have him put away for murder and acquitted from terrorism charge.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

This kid should get a minimum of first degree murder, put away for life. If he's lucky, he can go into a mental institution for life. Already his parents were indicative that he was a "combative (aka problematic)" kid. If he's not lucky, then it's first degree cold-blooded hate-motivated murders. The terrorism charges brought in only muddies the water.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> This kid should get a minimum of first degree murder, put away for life. If he's lucky, he can go into a mental institution for life. Already his parents were indicative that he was a "combative (aka problematic)" kid. If he's not lucky, then it's first degree cold-blooded hate-motivated murders. The terrorism charges brought in only muddies the water.


There is also the fact that he was diagnosed as mentally ill.

I wonder if his defence will be that they failed to properly treat his mental health issues, and as such he's not criminally responsible.
Maybe he'll be out within a decade like Vince Li.

Remember most cases of vehicular murder end up with a slap on the wrist.
This loser might be out in only a year and a half.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-jacob-simmons-1.6061134



Personally I think murderers should get the death penalty.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> There is also the fact that he was diagnosed as mentally ill.
> 
> I wonder if his defence will be that they failed to properly treat his mental health issues, and as such he's not criminally responsible.
> Maybe he'll be out within a decade like Vince Li.
> ...


 ... maybe if they can prove it. But keep in mind, he was mentally stable to have a job. Unfortunately as much as you wish on the death penalty, there ain't one in Canada. And even then I would think death penalty should be reserved for cold-blooded intentional murder.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... maybe if they can prove it. But keep in mind, he was mentally stable to have a job. Unfortunately as much as you wish on the death penalty, there ain't one in Canada. And even then I would think death penalty should be reserved for cold-blooded intentional murder.


I think all murders should be executed.

I think this case is going to get really messy, and the politicians made it worse, but "never let a good crisis go to waste"


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The accused will plead guilty and spend the rest of his life in prison...........the end.

His only other option is to spend the next couple of years in solitary confinement with nothing but his own thoughts to keep him occupied.

And then he goes to prison for the rest of his life anyways.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> The accused will plead guilty and spend the rest of his life in prison...........the end.


You got tomorrow's Lotto Max numbers?


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Why.......you think something magical is going to happen to save him ? Maybe an alien spaceship will come down and beam him up ?

The guy has zero chance of not being convicted. He is being housed in a house or horrors in solitary confinement

There will be no chance of a plea bargain. If the guy has one brain cell left......he will opt to go Federal prison asap.

Mr. Matt already has the charges reduced to vehicular manslaughter as a possibility.....LOL....as if that is going to happen.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> Why.......you think something magical is going to happen to save him ? Maybe an alien spaceship will come down and beam him up ?
> 
> The guy has zero chance of not being convicted. He is being housed in a house or horrors in solitary confinement
> 
> There will be no chance of a plea bargain. If the guy has one brain cell left......he will opt to go Federal prison asap.


He has zero chance of not being convicted of murder.
He has non-zero chance of not being convicted of terrorism, considered they didn't find any activity linking him to any terrorist organization or ideology.
You have to understand that each charge is considered separately. You can be convicted of one, and acquitted of the other.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

But if he pleads not guilty to any of the charges his situation won't change, so there is no point to pleading to some and not all the charges.

If he goes to trial, he will have a long uncomfortable wait and be found guilty anyways. It is his choice though........if he can find a lawyer to represent him.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

He will be given a representation. Another human right that you are completely ignorant of.
His situation can change. There is a huge difference between involuntary manslaughter, manslaughter, and terrorism. 
I am sorry, but until new facts come out I will not be continuing this conversation.
You continue to ignore facts, you are ignorant when it comes to human rights, you promote racism, and you pick a small part of someone else's response, completely ignoring facts and points that directly contradict your imagination.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> He has zero chance of not being convicted of murder.
> *He has non-zero chance of not being convicted of terrorism, considered they didn't find any activity linking him to any terrorist organization or ideology.*
> You have to understand that each charge is considered separately. You can be convicted of one, and acquitted of the other.


Exactly like during Stalin's USSR... find mental guy who did stupid things and appoint him as some imperialist spy or member of some imaginary terrorist plot


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I think all murders should be executed.
> 
> I think this case is going to get really messy, and the politicians made it worse, but "never let a good crisis go to waste"


Strong disagree from me, here. 

Executions in general are a complete shitshow, as demonstrated in the US. It costs more, and we run the risk of wrongfully executing innocent people. I would call that murder, and the blood is on all our hands.

Any penalty applied out of a sense of vengeance is barbaric. Stick that in your cultural practices hotline and smoke it.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Strong disagree from me, here.
> 
> Executions in general are a complete shitshow, as demonstrated in the US.


I don't think the US does this particularly well, but let me provide a counterpoint.



> It costs more,


It costs more because the defence gets better funding, and they work harder to ensure that they are guilty.
We "save money" by not giving people second rate defences if they're "just" getting life in proson.



> and we run the risk of wrongfully executing innocent people.


We run the risk of locking innocent people away for years or their entire lives.
This is actually more likely because we "save money" by not doing our best to ensure they're guilty.



> I would call that murder, and the blood is on all our hands.


I would call locking an innocent person away a barbaric punishment. Does it matter if they sit in solitude for decades before they die, are we less at fault for stealing their lives?



> Any penalty applied out of a sense of vengeance is barbaric.


I don't see it as vengence, I see it as justice and helping society move past the events and heal.



> Stick that in your cultural practices hotline and smoke it.


Tell that the victims families, as they look on with the killers smirking at them during their hearings and they fight decade after decade to keep them locked up.

Get rid of the killer and help the victims families heal.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Locking away an innocent person can be fixed to some degree.
Murdering innocent person can't.
There are extremely few completely black and white cases in the legal system. Death penalty for those can definitely be discussed, but any, tiniest shred of uncertainty would imho make death penalty damaging to the legal system.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I don't see it as vengence, I see it as justice and helping society move past the events and heal.


How does murdering someone help society move past something? Emotional comfort is a terrible reason to kill someone.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> How does murdering someone help society move past something? Emotional comfort is a terrible reason to kill someone.


Guess you didn't care that Paul Bernardo is having a parole hearing. 
But you know lets drag up that horror every few years, because to put him away for good would be "barbaric"


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Guess you didn't care that Paul Bernardo is having a parole hearing.
> But you know lets drag up that horror every few years, because to put him away for good would be "barbaric"


Do you think there is any risk of him being released? He has been given dangerous offender status and is unlikely to ever be released, because he is considered a risk to the community.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> How does murdering someone help society move past something? Emotional comfort is a terrible reason to kill someone.


Not to mention the mistakes that are made. The United States has executed countless innocent people... I can't think of anything more horrific.

The non-zero possibility of wrongful conviction makes me completely opposed to the death penalty.



MrMatt said:


> Guess you didn't care that Paul Bernardo is having a parole hearing.


Bernardo & Homolka committed their crimes when I was a kid, and not too far from where I lived. When I got older and really understood the crimes, I almost puked. Even all these years later, just typing this out has given me a bit of nausea and unsettled me before bed. I'm going to have to go listen to some music.

Despite all that, I would not support the death penalty for either one. It's too dangerous to give the state that kind of power.

And kudos to the journalists who continue to track Homolka (aka Teale) and publish her current location, fresh as of Dec 2020. She was volunteering at an elementary school for a while.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Bernardo and Homolka........Michael Rafferty and Terrie Lynne McClintick......and many others are in prison for horrific crimes.

It is incomprehensible to believe those people didn't have mental issues to commit those crimes, and shows how high the bar is for the London accused to "get off" with some claim of mental "issues".

I think that defense is a non-starter, given the guy went to work, drove around for awhile, ran over the family, and then drove down the road for quite a ways before pulling into a shopping mall parking lot, parking his truck and then telling a cab driver that he just killed some people.

As to mechanical failure in his truck.......he drove out of town to work and back, to the scene of the crime on the busiest road in London, and then drove a distance before stopping and confessing to the cab driver. Who knows what he has told police when getting arrested and in jail.

I think it likely he pleads guilty to all charges.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Bernardo and Homolka........Michael Rafferty and Terrie Lynne McClintick......and many others are in prison for horrific crimes.
> 
> It is incomprehensible to believe those people didn't have mental issues to commit those crimes, and shows how high the bar is for the London accused to "get off" with some claim of mental "issues".
> 
> I think that defense is a non-starter, given the guy went to work, drove around for awhile, ran over the family, and then drove down the road for quite a ways before pulling into a shopping mall parking lot, parking his truck and then telling a cab driver that he just killed some people.


He was previously diagnosed with mental illness BEFORE the crime. 
If he was actively seeking treatment to address his illness it's hard to argue that he had criminal intent.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The fact he has been treated for mental illness does not mean he will 'get off' on a 'not criminally responsible' ruling. IANAL, but I would be surprised if he were.

The fact that he drove off for a while before turning himself in might just be shock. I am reminded of people who commit suicide by jumping in front of a subway train. Or murder by pushing someone else. Sometimes that is just a momentary ideation that someone may have thought of dozens or hundreds of times but actually acted on in a split moment. I think the idea that this is some political/terrorist act seems rather unlikely based on what has been shared. Maybe the police investigation has turned up more damning and conclusive evidence to justify treating this as a terrorist act.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> The fact he has been treated for mental illness does not mean he will 'get off' on a 'not criminally responsible' ruling. IANAL, but I would be surprised if he were.


I agree, just pointing out that there are a large number of factors to be considered.
FYI the reported post arrest behaviour (spouting gibberish, acting erratically etc) is (to my understanding) suggestive of a mental illness or other type of impairment.

All I am saying is that we need to ensure that the situation and evidence is evaluated fairly.
If it was an intentional act, I want the death penalty.
If it was a transitory issue (ie stroke, mental illness, vehicle malfunction etc) I want the issue addressed so that nobody else suffers unfairly.

Lets just give him a fair trial, and treat him fairly. I don't want revenge, I simply want to be clear about my disapproval of the act, and ensure society is protected in the future. This includes all those suspected of crimes.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> If it was an intentional act, I want the death penalty.


You will be disappointed.

I think you should examine why you thirst for someone's blood. It isn't out of any desire to protect anyone, just out of vengeance.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> You will be disappointed.


Of course I will.



> I think you should examine why you thirst for someone's blood. It isn't out of any desire to protect anyone, just out of vengeance.


sorry, when you execute a killer they can't hurt anyone ever again in any way, and their death can help bring a sense of closure to the victims.
Why you want to let them to continue to hurt others,?
I don't understand. Don't you have any empathy ?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Of course I will.
> 
> 
> sorry, when you execute a killer they can't hurt anyone ever again in any way, and their death can help bring a sense of closure to the victims.
> ...


Oh I'd just like to point out that in Canada those sentenced to life do get released to hurt people again.
Let alone the crimes they may commit in prison, or the emotional damage knowing that they're living their life and may one day be free.









Why life in prison rarely works out that way in Canada


With 22 per cent of paroled murderers having their parole revoked over a 14-year period, the system is flawed




www.theglobeandmail.com




"However, given that 22 per cent of paroled murderers had their parole revoked over a 14-year period, it is not at all clear that the system is working well."

They let out too many murderers, and more than 1 in five go on to commit more crimes.

I say that when the evidence is strong enough, end the problem and get rid of the killer. We don't need these people.
yes it's harsh, but I care 1e6 more times about the victims than the murderers.

It's no seeking blood, it's protecting society and providing closure to victims.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Too many falsely convicted people to even consider capital punishment.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Too many falsely convicted people to even consider capital punishment.


How many falsely convicted people do we have for first degree murder?

Why aren't you concerned about those suffering in prison for decades for crimes they didn't commit.
I think that's 

I have an idea, lets do a better job making sure people are guilty,
lets ensure people get adequate legal representation at trial.

Lets make sure, even in an "open and shut" case, like this incidient in London, we work to give the accused a fair trail.

Oh wait, politicians have to make their stand and taint the jury pool, a "fair trial" is just too much to ask, why even bother with a trial?

You're denying the right of someone to a fair trial, then using that as an excuse to not execute dangerous killers.
I know it's cheaper to give them second rate legal defense and have them serve life in prison, than to give them a proper (or at least better funded defense) and use the death penalty.

Don't forget Epstein was executed without trial.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Don't forget Epstein was executed without trial.


You're getting into conspiracy theory, here.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> You're getting into conspiracy theory, here.


Sure
But I put the murder of Epstein conspiracy somewhere between Wuhan accidental research lab release and Wuhan accidental biological weapon release conspiracies.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is no way to differentiate an "open and shut" case from every other conviction, as they are all based on a finding of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

When capital punishment is an option, who will decide the evidence proves guilt beyond any possibility of innocence ?

As acknowedged by the justice system, that would be a standard impossible to reach.

Benjamin Franklin stated it as: "it is *better 100 guilty* persons should escape than that one *innocent* person should suffer".

Imagine if the guilt finding of that one innocent person resulted in their execution.

As a just society we can't open that pandora's box.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

If Epstein was murdered in prison, it wasn't society responsible for his death.

I posted the accused in London should plead guilty because it is likely the best result for him. The evidence is overwhelming and his is currently being held in a detention center with a horrific history of killings, beatings, and all kinds of security of inmates problems. It should have been torn down and replaced years ago, as has been recommended numerous times by audits and coroner inquiries.

At least in a federal prison, the accused would have some semblance of a humane existence. It wouldn't be great......but a lot better than where he is.

Where he resides now and perhaps for a few years (if he goes to trial), it is far from humane.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

What evidence? Was there any provided at all for terrorism?


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> What evidence? Was there any provided at all for terrorism?


No one here doesn't need any evidence if our dictator decided that this is "terrorism"


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> If Epstein was murdered in prison, it wasn't society responsible for his death.
> 
> I posted the accused in London should plead guilty because it is likely the best result for him. The evidence is overwhelming and his is currently being held in a detention center with a horrific history of killings, beatings, and all kinds of security of inmates problems. It should have been torn down and replaced years ago, as has been recommended numerous times by audits and coroner inquiries.
> 
> ...


If Epstein was murdered the US government is responsible.
They locked him, unsupervised in a room until his end, tasked tired overworked untrained people to supervise, then made false records leading up to, and after his death.

And nobody was held accountable.

heck if it was suicide they're STILL responsible for putting him in a position where it was likely, and failing to properly monitor the situation.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Benjamin Franklin stated it as: "it is *better 100 guilty* persons should escape than that one *innocent* person should suffer".


I agree with the concept of the quote.

However if you let 100 guilty people escape, they'll likely cause far more than 1 innocent person to suffer.
Most serious crimes are committed by people who committed many other crimes. It's unusual for someone to only commit a single serious crime and then stop. They are either stopped, or they commit more crimes.

So let those hundred guilty lose and you'll have hundreds or thousands more innocent people suffer.
I'm not saying, "who cares" if we catch an innocent person, I am saying we need to do a better job of establishing guilt.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

So stop with catch and release BS. 
But I am with Ben Franklin here. You don't sacrifice innocent life. Would you be willing to be the one to die on the death row without committing a crime so that 100 others don't get out?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> So stop with catch and release BS.
> But I am with Ben Franklin here. You don't sacrifice innocent life. Would you be willing to be the one to die on the death row without committing a crime so that 100 others don't get out?


Would you be willing to be the one to spend the rest of your life in prison, because the government didn't allow you to have a proper defense?

The biggest reason a death penalty case costs more than it costs to keep someone in jail for life is they spend all those millions on getting the trial right.
1%, maybe not. 0.1%. 0.01% 0.001%
yeah at 0.001% I'd take that bet, that's 1 in 100k, I took the AZ vaccine.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The terrorism charges were added to the list of charges quickly after the attack.

Those charges allows the police to investigate contacts that the accused had online, and anyone who promoted what he did can be held accountable.

Part of the anti-terrorism act is that anyone who counsels or promotes terrorism is also subject to the law.

It will be interesting to discover if the accused was in contact with other people or groups.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Would you be willing to be the one to spend the rest of your life in prison, because the government didn't allow you to have a proper defense?
> 
> The biggest reason a death penalty case costs more than it costs to keep someone in jail for life is they spend all those millions on getting the trial right.
> 1%, maybe not. 0.1%. 0.01% 0.001%
> yeah at 0.001% I'd take that bet, that's 1 in 100k, I took the AZ vaccine.


Versus being executed? Yes.
You came up with those odds by yourself and stated conclusion based on them 
But I understand. We simply differ here. I am not willing to get executed after false accusation so that other criminals might not get away


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Versus being executed? Yes.
> You came up with those odds by yourself and stated conclusion based on them
> But I understand. We simply differ here. I am not willing to get executed after false accusation so that other criminals might not get away


Okay, given that no matter how certain you are, you do not feel we should deprive someone of their life, I would suggest imprisoning them is nearly as bad, ans should also be restricted.
In fact, why have any laws at all.

I think we should do better to ensure that we only convict the guilty.
But with politicians interfering with criminal trials, and people suggesting that we don't really need fair trials, (post #21)I find that concerning.

We need to better, we need to get rid of criminals, but make sure we don't hurt innocent people in the way. This also has to be balanced with the fact that letting criminals roam free will hurt more people.


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

The difference is that if someone is falsely imprisoned, the chance that they could be exonerated and released is still there. If someone is falsely executed that's final.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_Veltman, who *has no criminal record and no known link to any extremist group*, told the court via video link that he does not have a lawyer. - _the court will be interesting ....I wish it would be shown live on TV!

P.S. I bet that this mental guy wouldn't distinguish between Pakistani, Indian or Punjabi families.... but Trudeau is playing Islamophobia card now


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The police said they have evidence that they won't be releasing to the public.

They said he committed hate crimes directed at Muslims.........so that is the definition of Islamaphobia.

The terrorist charges gives the police wider powers of investigation into possible contacts with individuals and hate groups.

Facebook immediately took down his webpage, so he did have an online presence there and likely in other places.

His ISP will provide lots of information to police.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The police said they have evidence that they won't be releasing to the public.
> 
> They said he committed hate crimes directed at Muslims.........so that is the definition of Islamaphobia.
> 
> ...


What information do you think his ISP will provide? 

They don't actually log the sites you visit, and even if they did they can't see what you're actually doing there. 

Almost everything is encrypted these days. You don't get a good search ranking unless your site is encrypted.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> The police said they have evidence that they won't be releasing to the public.
> 
> They said he committed hate crimes directed at Muslims.........so that is the definition of Islamaphobia.
> 
> ...


You said it was strong evidence. I thought you must have seen them to gauge their effectiveness.
Hate crime doesn't equal terrorism. Two different crimes.
Facebook didn't take down his profile immediately. When I looked it up it was still there.
Like the police have said - there was nothing there to indicate any motivation or connections with any known terror groups.

Few will argue here that he committed a crime. There is no evidence known to public yet though that the crime was terrorism.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Few will argue here that he committed a crime. There is no evidence known to public yet though that the crime was terrorism.


Confucius: “*It's* very *difficult to find* a *black cat in a dark room*, especially if there is no *black cat*”.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Few will argue here that he committed a crime. There is no evidence known to public yet though that the crime was terrorism.


The Ryerson riots and damage were clearly terrorism, but nobody cares.
They were literally violence to achieve political change.
They wanted to remove of the statue, and they succeeded, using violence.

The van attack was likely a hate crime, but terrorism is a stretch.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think we should retire the term Islamophobia. It is a misleading catchall. What we're talking about is anti-Muslim hate crime. It shouldn't get mixed up with merely being critical of Islam (which is not even necessarily bigotry) or discrimination against Muslims. Kind of like how shooting up a gay nightclub is not merely 'homophobia'.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I think we should retire the term Islamophobia. It is a misleading catchall. What we're talking about is anti-Muslim hate crime. It shouldn't get mixed up with merely being critical of Islam (which is not even necessarily bigotry) or discrimination against Muslims. Kind of like how shooting up a gay nightclub is not merely 'homophobia'.


I agree and was talking about this term many times.....Islamophobia it's when people are scared of Islamists! This is perfectly normal to be scared as Islamists killed in terror attacks many thousands infidels (even including muslims).
Otherwise , criticizing HAMAS, Islamic Jihad and other terrorist's organization may be considered as "Islamophobia"


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Calling anything anti -muslim Islamaphobia is just a tool to silence critics.

There are legitimate criticisms of Islam, just as there are legitimate criticisms of pretty much every other culture or religion.

Confusing phobia with hate is just a tool they use.
It's one thing to have an extreme fear, it's another to have an irrational fear. it's another to hate, and act on it.

For example, I have an extreme fear of X, but it's a legitimate and reasonable fear. Not a phobia
I have extreme irrational fear of Y, that could be a phobia.
I hate Z.. not a phobia.

Honestly I think if people are actually scared of something, like Islam, there is nothing wrong with it, maybe people should talk and understand why? Is it the way they treat women? Is it the clothing? Is it that they don't eat bacon?


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

So........anti-Semitism would fall into the same category ?

If people criticize Israel's policies on the Palestinians, Jewish groups are quick to call it anti-semitism.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Calling anything anti -muslim Islamaphobia is just a tool to silence critics.
> 
> There are legitimate criticisms of Islam, just as there are legitimate criticisms of pretty much every other culture or religion.
> 
> ...


My understanding that fear and phobia are synonyms... 

We are disgusted how they treat women or their burqas and so on, but we scared of terrorist attacks they constantly performed.

Just one of thousands massaqure








Dolphinarium discotheque massacre - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> So........anti-Semitism would fall into the same category ?
> 
> If people criticize Israel's policies on the Palestinians, Jewish groups are quick to call it anti-semitism.


Absolutely irrelevant ! You are so anti-Semitic that always bring this topic!
If I criticize Liberal's policies on Canadians, Trudeau cult is quick to call me anti-Canadian


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> So........anti-Semitism would fall into the same category ?
> 
> If people criticize Israel's policies on the Palestinians, Jewish groups are quick to call it anti-semitism.


It matters what the policy is.

But if you're going to criticize that they response to a terrorist attack, well many people would consider it unacceptable to deny ones right to self defence. That could be considered anti-semitism.

If you criticize other aspects, for example ritual genital mutilation of children, I don't think that's particularly anti-semitic, or islamaphobic for that matter.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Or.....that both anti-semitism and Islamaphobia exist.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Or.....that both anti-semitism and Islamaphobia exist.


They do exist, but it reasonable criticism isn't anti semetic or islamaphobic.

I think that Islams treatment of women is or should be unacceptable to most Canadians. That's not Islamophobic, I simply believe men and women should be treated equally.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Guess you didn't care that Paul Bernardo is having a parole hearing.


He's been denied.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> He's been denied.


It would be better to simply dump him in a deep dark hole and leave him there.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Better yet, amend the law first to allow him a parole hearing every decade or so instead of once every 2 years. I agree with the victims' families that "time does not heal" for them.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> It would be better to simply dump him in a deep dark hole and leave him there.


We should be emulating Bernardo?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> We should be emulating Bernardo?


No, I'm suggesting that he should simply be dealt with in a fair and just manner.


----------



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

MrMatt said:


> It would be better to simply dump him in a deep dark hole and leave him there.





MrMatt said:


> I'm suggesting that he should simply be dealt with in a fair and just manner.


He is. Effectively he is out of circulation permanently, but the system is still looking in on him and evaluating the situation once in a while. I am confident this is how the system should work.

Literally burying him in the ground -- maybe with a bullet in his head -- is not a reasonable policy for a civilized country, or even Canada, to pursue.


----------



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

MrMatt said:


> What information do you think his ISP will provide?
> 
> They don't actually log the sites you visit, and even if they did they can't see what you're actually doing there.
> 
> Almost everything is encrypted these days. You don't get a good search ranking unless your site is encrypted.


If there were folks communicating using a forum, it would be necessary to go to the ISPs to divine the (approximate) identities of the parties to that communication, based on the time and IP addresses of the posted communications. Emails to/from someone may be traceable, in part, using IP addresses and MTA logs that might reside with the ISP.

If the police were looking into me and thought they wanted to go after MrMatt, based on our interaction here, they could use a set of warrants to get the posting data from Canadian Money Forum, then after MrMatt's ISP, based on the IP address he posted from and, maybe, track him down.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gardner said:


> If there were folks communicating using a forum, it would be necessary to go to the ISPs to divine the (approximate) identities of the parties to that communication, based on the time and IP addresses of the posted communications. Emails to/from someone may be traceable, in part, using IP addresses and MTA logs that might reside with the ISP.
> 
> If the police were looking into me and thought they wanted to go after MrMatt, based on our interaction here, they could use a set of warrants to get the posting data from Canadian Money Forum, then after MrMatt's ISP, based on the IP address he posted from and, maybe, track him down.


If you had access to the forum, you could trace that.
For email, does anyone use their ISPs mail server anymore?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gardner said:


> He is. Effectively he is out of circulation permanently, but the system is still looking in on him and evaluating the situation once in a while. I am confident this is how the system should work.
> 
> Literally burying him in the ground -- maybe with a bullet in his head -- is not a reasonable policy for a civilized country, or even Canada, to pursue.


Letting him continue to live is an insult to his victims.
We just have a different view, I understand yours. But I think it's okay to kill bad people.


----------



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

MrMatt said:


> If you had access to the forum, you could trace that.


Canadian Money Forum knows dick all about me. The only thing they know for sure is the IP address I come from, at any given moment. Everything else is, for all they know, fake/disposable/abandoned.



> For email, does anyone use their ISPs mail server anymore?


Maybe not, but gmail, yahoo, etc also only really know the IP address folks are coming from, and only the ISP knows where/who _that_ really is.

It's all likely grasping a bit, since a really organised conspiracy would use TOR and VPNs via Sri Lanka and all that sort of stuff. If the police find co-conspirators, they're going to be teens in their mums' basements. But I still want them caught and charged.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gardner said:


> Canadian Money Forum knows dick all about me. The only thing they know for sure is the IP address I come from, at any given moment. Everything else is, for all they know, fake/disposable/abandoned.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a reason that governments run so many Tor nodes


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Well, you run into a problem Matt when your definition of 'bad' is different than definition of 'bad' of those who make decision about the killing.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Well, you run into a problem Matt when your definition of 'bad' is different than definition of 'bad' of those who make decision about the killing.


Of course, that is true.

But we actually do agree in many cases. I think we agree in more cases than we disagree.

Most agree that killers like Bernardo are bad. So lets act.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Really do not understand the bloodthirst.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Really do not understand the bloodthirst.


I really don't understand your apathy and lack of empathy.

I am not at all bloodthirsty, perhaps you're lack of understanding is the label you have chosen to apply.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Of course, that is true.
> 
> But we actually do agree in many cases. I think we agree in more cases than we disagree.
> 
> Most agree that killers like Bernardo are bad. So lets act.


What about the cases you disagree with?
What if authorities decide that you deserve to die if you disagree with them?
What if authorities decide that you deserve to die if you are of certain nationality, race, religion, belief system?

Not like it hasn't happened before. You can't give the authorities too much power because they abuse it. That's why having constitution written on a toilet paper and human rights being optional in Canada allows government to create internment camps that would never be accepted in developed country.
Giving authorities power to end your life just because they themselves decide it is justified is a terrible idea.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> What you are suggesting is actually giving them more power and giving them ultimate control over your life - a control over when a life can be ended.


They already have this power.
They already use this power.
They've found a few hundred of the thousands of native children they murdered. There are thousands more cases.

I want them held accountable.


I also don't want people like Paul Bernardo around anymore.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

David Milgaard - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org









Steven Truscott - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org








__





List of 10 high-profile wrongful murder convictions in Canada


TORONTO — The federal government is moving forward with the creation of an independent review commission to consider claims of wrongful convictions. Here are…




nationalpost.com


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

An Alberta minister's 25 year old daughter was attacked in downtown Calgary, in broad daylight. Another racial attack.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/minister-of-community-and-social-services-rajan-sawhney-attack-1.6081490


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Right wing hoodlums who likely cry all the time about their "rights" to harass, demean, and bully other people with their words and actions.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

A Muslim Somali migrant in Germany killed 3 and wounded 5 in a spree knife attack. All the victims were women. Reportedly, he was saying "Allahu akbar" during the attack.









German knife attack: Three dead and five wounded in Würzburg


A Somali man arrested after the attack had been mentally unstable recently, police say.



www.bbc.com





Of course, the other similarity with the attack in London is that both men were reported to be suffering from mental illness. I think much hay could be made out of both being hate crimes (one anti-Muslim, the other Islamist misogyny) or we could treat them as the more isolated acts of violence by disturbed individuals that they likely are.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> I think much hay could be made out of both being hate crimes (one anti-Muslim, the other Islamist misogyny) or we could treat them as the more isolated acts of violence by disturbed individuals that they likely are.


All terrorist attackers are disturbed and mentally ill. A normal person does not go out killing people. So one can't just wave away an incident because the attacker has mental problems.

This is a tough one. I think we have to watch for trends and patterns, where several attacks have similar characteristics. It's a tough call though, for sure.

There is already a well established pattern of white supremacist / white nationalist attacks in the US and Canada: They carry out violent attacks both against visible minorities/immigrants, and against government figures.

There is a MO or pattern. They have anti-immigrant ideology, or believe in the superiority of white European Christians, or believe their nation is under attack by non-whites.

I suspect (but don't know for sure) that the London attack fits into this category. The Calgary incident definitely does.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

james4beach said:


> An Alberta minister's 25 year old daughter was attacked in downtown Calgary, in broad daylight. Another racial attack.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/minister-of-community-and-social-services-rajan-sawhney-attack-1.6081490


 ... I'm not surprised these kind of occurrences will only increase with copy cats and status quo lame laws.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> A Muslim Somali migrant in Germany killed 3 and wounded 5 in a spree knife attack. All the victims were women. Reportedly, he was saying "Allahu akbar" during the attack.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that's the real issue, the reality is that overt attacks are fortunately rare, we should simply try to stop all crimes and violence, and improve our care for the mentally ill.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> There is a MO or pattern. They have anti-immigrant ideology, or believe in the superiority of white European Christians, or believe their nation is under attack by non-whites.


You're confusing the issues. it isn't anti-immigrant, or even anti white.
Islam (like most religions) has some problems, and some adherents are particularly racist and sexist.
This is concerning to some people, and I think more should be done to address this.

It is not "phobic" to be concerned about the second rate treatment of women in Islam.


We need to figure out how to separate the discussion between legitimate concerns about something, and hateful rhetoric, and violence.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

_It is not "phobic" to be concerned about the second rate treatment of women in Islam. _

No it isn't, but it is phobic to only concentrate on the Islam religion. Islam isn't the only religion that promotes the second rate treatment of women.

Many religions were founded on the concept that women were not created equal to men, but were created to be "helpers" and "companions" and thus should be subservient to the men. The original tenents of most religions was that men ruled over the earth and everything contained therein.

Many religions continue to practice inequality today. How many female Popes have their been ? How many high ranking bishops ? How many "elders" in some churches are women ? How many religions don't allow women to become ministers, pastors, or priests ? How many churches tell women what is appropriate for them to wear ? How many tell women that control over their own bodies is a mortal sin ?

I think religion can be a good thing for communities and people, but it was founded in the ancient past and is badly out of date.

Society has advanced. Religions...........not so much.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> _It is not "phobic" to be concerned about the second rate treatment of women in Islam. _
> 
> No it isn't, but it is phobic to only concentrate on the Islam religion. Islam isn't the only religion that promotes the second rate treatment of women.


Most American Mosques are still gender segregated. That's a problem.

I don't think other religions in Canada are still as blatantly discriminatory.
Regarding your other questions, I don't know, my church doesn't discriminate by gender at all, it's a non issue.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> All terrorist attackers are disturbed and mentally ill. A normal person does not go out killing people. So one can't just wave away an incident because the attacker has mental problems.


So you think 9/11 was executed by 17 irrational mentally ill people who managed to plot and execute their plan over many months?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> So you think 9/11 was executed by 17 irrational mentally ill people who managed to plot and execute their plan over many months?


He's unable to understand that evil people simply exist.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

At the very least, it is a different kind of mental illness that leads people to commit apparently unpremeditated attacks like this London attack or the attack in Wurzburg than the kind of mental illness required to say, coordinate a carefully planned attack like 9/11, or engage in medical experimentation on people in concentration camps like the Nazi regime did. The latter is perhaps not mental illness, but the consequence of adopting evil ideology and taking it to its rational conclusion.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> So you think 9/11 was executed by 17 irrational mentally ill people who managed to plot and execute their plan over many months?


That was a serious, organized terrorist attack funded by Saudi wahhabists, who are a powerful force with massive financing. There hasn't been another attack like that.

Who else has been charged with terrorism in Canada over the last 20 years? How about that white kid from Winnipeg who made himself a jihadi and then tried bombing a shopping mall in London Ontario. Or how about that mentally ill, drug addict couple that the RCMP elaborately tried entrapping into conducting a crime.

Or how about that other mentally ill homeless guy, who once tried robbing a McDonalds with a sharpened stick (yes seriously) who then went to kill people in Ottawa... remember the one? Where we said what a terrible *terrorist* attack it was?

So let's be consistent here. We talked for YEARS about how all these people were terrorists, and people at CMF foamed at the mouth with anger for the muslims and terrorists. Boy, were Canadians scared about all these serious terrorists.

And now a similarly mentally ill white guy is doing similar attacks, and .... nah that's not terrorism. He's just a white guy having a bad day!

But I'm hardly surprised to hear you guys post stuff like this. What else would I expect from an older white crowd? The white guy isn't a terrorist, he just has personal problems.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Does it make it more tragic or somehow elevate the murder of that family in London if we call it terrorism? 

Would you call the knife attack in Wurzburg terrorism? I'm not sure I would, on the face of it.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I just think we should be consistent. We've called many mentally ill people in Canada "islamic terrorists", including white kids who spent too much time on the internet.

Do you not recall how quick the media / government / Harper were, to always call these people terrorists and demand the harshest justice?

Seems a bit hypocritical to me, as a society.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> That was a serious, organized terrorist attack funded by Saudi wahhabists, who are a powerful force with massive financing. There hasn't been another attack like that.


I think my point is that terrorism is a political act of violence. It stands to reason that one must be reasonably of sound mind to engage in it. So I wholeheartedly disagree that terrorists are all mentally ill. That fails to understand the phenomena.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> I think my point is that terrorism is a political act of violence. It stands to reason that one must be reasonably of sound mind to engage in it. So I wholeheartedly disagree that terrorists are all mentally ill. That fails to understand the phenomena.


Then you must disagree with some of the terrorism labels (including government charges of terrorism) that occurred over the last 20 years.

For example, that drug addict couple were minding their own business, when the RCMP tried to convince them to carry out a violent attack. They were not part of a political movement. And the media and Harper government definitely celebrated it as a dangerous terrorist plot thwarted.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The point I'm trying to make is that Canada really is not under much threat of terrorism, and has NEVER been ... that is the conclusion if you *correctly* apply terrorism labels.

Many muslims have been unfairly called terrorists in Canada, and I don't recall the media or CMF ever rushing to their defence for fairness.

Gee I wonder why? Anyone want to guess? Boy are we generous and forgiving when a white guy lays out the bodies on the pavement.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> The point I'm trying to make is that Canada really is not under much threat of terrorism, and has NEVER been ... that is the conclusion if you *correctly* apply terrorism labels.
> 
> Many muslims have been unfairly called terrorists in Canada, and I don't recall the media or CMF ever rushing to their defence for fairness.
> 
> Gee I wonder why? Anyone want to guess? Boy are we generous and forgiving when a white guy lays out the bodies on the pavement.


Last year you were going crazy suggesting that we're nearing disaster with right wing terrorism.

What muslims are being unfairly called terrorists? 

Right now the terrorists in Canada are those destroying statues and burning churches.


I'm pretty strong against terrorists, far more than the current Government.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Then you must disagree with some of the terrorism labels (including government charges of terrorism) that occurred over the last 20 years.
> 
> For example, that drug addict couple were minding their own business, when the RCMP tried to convince them to carry out a violent attack. They were not part of a political movement. And the media and Harper government definitely celebrated it as a dangerous terrorist plot thwarted.


Honestly, I have no recollection of this case. I suppose if part of the entrapment is radicalization to a political cause, a subsequent act could be one of terrorism.

The incel van attacker in Toronto was not a terrorist. Just a spree killer. FLQ, IRA, Timothy McVeigh bombers were terrorists. If it makes you feel better, they are all white. Well, I guess if you believe Armenians are white (I honestly get confused by some of the edge cases, and race is an inherently silly idea).


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Many muslims have been unfairly called terrorists in Canada, and I don't recall the media or CMF ever rushing to their defence for fairness.


I defended Omar Khadr. It seemed to me he was more a victim of an abusive family, which lead him to kill an American solider in a combat situation. Of course, casual observers can never really know the mind of people in situations like this. People were advocating leaving him to rot in an American extrajudicial gulag, which I don't think any Canadian should be subjected to.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> The point I'm trying to make is that Canada really is not under much threat of terrorism, and has NEVER been ... that is the conclusion if you *correctly* apply terrorism labels.
> 
> Many muslims have been unfairly called terrorists in Canada, and I don't recall the media or CMF ever rushing to their defence for fairness.
> 
> Gee I wonder why? Anyone want to guess? Boy are we generous and forgiving when a white guy lays out the bodies on the pavement.


Terrorist or not--they are murderers. I think you're getting overly hung up on the terrorism term. It may come to light that the London truck attacker had premeditatedly decided to kill muslims as a political act. Usually to have the desired effect, a terrorist would reveal that fact more obviously (manifesto, claiming of responsibility etc.). But based on what has been revealed thus far, it seems more likely he is a disturbed individual who might have hateful feelings towards Muslims. And he's a multiple murderer who should be prosecuted to the full extent possible.

Everyone trying to elevate this attack to the level of terrorism is essentially seeking to make it a terrorist attack if not in fact, but after the fact. They are encouraging muslims to cower in fear. Promulgating that narrative when unsupported by facts is a kind of terrorism.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> Terrorist or not--they are murderers. I think you're getting overly hung up on the terrorism term. It may come to light that the London truck attacker had premeditatedly decided to kill muslims as a political act. Usually to have the desired effect, a terrorist would reveal that fact more obviously (manifesto, claiming of responsibility etc.)


All good points. Sorry, not replying too much... it's way too hot over here.


----------



## 307169 (May 24, 2015)

It makes me wonder what is the purpose of labelling something/someone as a terrorist or a terrorist attack. If someone has intention to kill and succeed in it, he/she is a murderer. If he/she fail, it is attempted murder. 

I see the label terrorist or terrorist attack to not be very useful.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

We should be suspicious of the use of the term 'terrorism'. It is often used to justify reduction in civil liberties. It's been 20 years since 9/11, and we are still living with much of the security theatre put in place as a result. Most of it completely useless. The only really essential rule was on locking cockpits. And the new understanding that no amount of hostage taking on the rest of the aircraft could justify unlocking the door for the pilots (assumption being that unlocking the door means everyone dies).


----------



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

andrewf said:


> We should be suspicious of the use of the term 'terrorism'. It is often used to justify reduction in civil liberties. It's been 20 years since 9/11, and we are still living with much of the security theatre put in place as a result. Most of it completely useless.


I am highly suspicious of special "terrorism" powers as well. In the specific case at hand, I understand that terrorism charges are more of a tool to enable/simplify rooting out possible co-conspirators. While I would want co-conspirators to be found and held to account, I am uncertain what special powers the terrorism charges enable, and can't be sure I am happy with THOSE.



> The only really essential rule was on locking cockpits. And the new understanding that no amount of hostage taking on the rest of the aircraft could justify unlocking the door for the pilots (assumption being that unlocking the door means everyone dies).


I was okay with this new rule until Germanwings Flight 9525 and now I think the strong locking door is also a liability.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I defended Omar Khadr. It seemed to me he was more a victim of an abusive family, which lead him to kill an American solider in a combat situation. Of course, casual observers can never really know the mind of people in situations like this. People were advocating leaving him to rot in an American extrajudicial gulag, which I don't think any Canadian should be subjected to.


I agree, but the abuse that Omar Khadr was subjected to was religious in nature. His family appears to be religious extremists.
however I am not sure how to address this, as I'm against the systematic removal of children to address cultural differences. This doesn't work well.

As far as terrorism, I think the burning of churches in BC, and toppling of statues across the country are clearly terrorism, but there is no way the government will step up.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Maybe they should eliminate all the terms and just go with "hate crimes" and "hate speech" as the criminal offenses, to top up the punishment.

It could be "hate murder" or "hate speech"......with the word "hate" preceding the crime to denote a more severe charge.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> We should be suspicious of the use of the term 'terrorism'. It is often used to justify reduction in civil liberties. It's been 20 years since 9/11, and we are still living with much of the security theatre put in place as a result. Most of it completely useless.


I agree 100%. This whole thing was a farce... 9/11 was a very serious attack but Canada (and even the US) just has not faced that many terrorist incidents over the years. There have been a few for sure, but it just was not a significant threat.

Things like all these new travel restrictions, monitoring, no-fly lists have turned into a big nuisance and disaster. Many visible minorities (sometimes Muslim but often even Indian!) have suffered a decline in their freedoms and quality of life, all due to this paranoia about terrorism.

There have been huge changes to our justice system, circumvention of due process, circumvention of normal procedures that our liberties depend on. We now have secret courts where the media gets locked out, and even defence counsels don't have access to the government evidence being used against them!

This is one of the things I disliked the most about Harper, as he started eagerly adopting the PATRIOT Act kind of stuff. He even tried changing the fundamental rights and definitions of citizenship, mimicking the Bush-era paranoia.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

All governments have authoritarian tendencies. It is up to citizens to draw a line. We have been doing terrible job at that.
Once government and authorities manage to take power once, they never give it back. They aren't going to give it back after this massive social experiment either. They checked how far they could push it, and without citizens pushing back, they found there is literally no limit to their power over an individual.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

damian13ster said:


> All governments have authoritarian tendencies. It is up to citizens to draw a line. We have been doing terrible job at that.


And where were you back when they were trying to round up all the Muslims, and all the police and intelligence were spying on them 24/7?

Were you speaking up in defence of muslims and visible minorities then? Or were you watching Fox News and The Rebel, and joining the lets-beat-up-on-the-muslims bandwagon?


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

james4beach said:


> And where were you back when they were trying to round up all the Muslims, and all the police and intelligence were spying on them 24/7?
> 
> Were you speaking up in defence of muslims and visible minorities then? Or were you watching Fox News and The Rebel, and joining the lets-beat-up-on-the-muslims bandwagon?


I was 9 during immediate aftermath of 9/11....... Will admit that at that stage I wasn't fully aware of what was going on and how the rights are being violated.
I am now though and I will defend every single individual's freedoms and human rights. Every single one.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Maybe they should eliminate all the terms and just go with "hate crimes" and "hate speech" as the criminal offenses, to top up the punishment.
> 
> It could be "hate murder" or "hate speech"......with the word "hate" preceding the crime to denote a more severe charge.


How about we take race and religion out of it, and just say "murder".

The problem with "hate speech" is we can't agree on what it is. Some people have claimed that "All lives matter" is hate speech, or "It's okay to be white". Both completely true, but some idiots think they're "hateful".

You know what, the thousands of indigenous bodies they're digging up (there are more) matter, and they're not black.
All lives matter.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Hate crimes and speech flourish in the darkness and light must be focused on them for society to unequivocally state that it is unacceptable in any form.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> All terrorist attackers are disturbed and mentally ill. A normal person does not go out killing people. So one can't just wave away an incident because the attacker has mental problems.


Wow! You are so naïve!!! Do you really think that tons of Islamic terrorists , include suicide bombers, are mentally ill?! Or you are suggesting that Islam making them mentally ill?!


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> *The point I'm trying to make is that Canada really is not under much threat of terrorism, and has NEVER been .*.. that is the conclusion if you *correctly* apply terrorism labels.
> 
> Many muslims have been unfairly called terrorists in Canada, and I don't recall the media or CMF ever rushing to their defence for fairness.
> 
> Gee I wonder why? Anyone want to guess? Boy are we generous and forgiving when a white guy lays out the bodies on the pavement.


Really?! 
Do you think 2006 Ontario terrorism plot - Wikipedia is a fake?!


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> How about we take race and religion out of it, and just say "murder".
> 
> The problem with "hate speech" is we can't agree on what it is. Some people have claimed that "All lives matter" is hate speech, or "It's okay to be white". Both completely true, but some idiots think they're "hateful".
> 
> ...


I'd call it genocide ....
Just imagine what noise Trudeau and other Liberal World would make if thousands of unmarked grave of palestinian children (that previously were taken from parents by force) would be found in Israel!!!! But with Canada it's just fine... we still stay the most democratic dictatorship.

P.S. The funny part....when we were taught in Soviet union schools about crimes committed against First nations, we thought it's a propaganda and now we see that it was true! Amazing!


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> I'd call it genocide ....
> Just imagine what noise Trudeau and other Liberal World would make if thousands of unmarked grave of palestinian children (that previously were taken from parents by force) would be found in Israel!!!! But with Canada it's just fine... we still stay the most democratic dictatorship.
> 
> P.S. The funny part....when we were taught in Soviet union schools about crimes committed against First nations, we thought it's a propaganda and now we see that it was true! Amazing!


We were taught this in Canada too, but I guess most people don't remember high school. 
I'm actually finding this interesting, I see friends from HS post how shocked and appauled they are that this happened, they were in the same class as me when we went over this in class. They've personally known for decades. I was sitting beside them in class when it was up on the chalkboard.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> I'm actually finding this interesting, I see friends from HS post how shocked and appauled they are that this happened


It's systemic racism in Canada. That's why people seem so shocked about all the murdered First Nations children.

On one hand, we never learned it in high school. On the other hand, kids I knew from high school used to constantly tell racist jokes about aboriginals. Some of them went driving through the poor parts of town to laugh and throw pennies at First Nations people. It sounds horrific but I'm not joking... this is what children were doing.

(In Thunder Bay there was a case where a man threw a trailer hitch at two First Nations women who were walking, killing one of them.)

Those children from my highschool have grown up and some of them now work for the city, and work in businesses where they hire or manage people. Want to guess whether they are racist towards First Nations people?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> It's systemic racism in Canada. That's why people seem so shocked about all the murdered First Nations children.


Why are they shocked? This was going on for the last hundred years! It was taught about in school.



> On one hand, we never learned it in high school.


But we did, that's my point. We WERE taught this in high school
I was actually sitting in the same physical classroom with these people in high school when we had those lessons.


It's right in there in the cirriculumn today, and it has been in there for decades.


http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/curriculum/secondary/canworld910curr2018.pdf




http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/curriculum/secondary/canworld910curr2013.pdf


It was there in 2018, it was there in 2013, I remember it from decades ago.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about my lived experience.
I went to an Ontario public school, and I was taught about the abuses in residential schools in high school. As were the people I went to high school with, who are now posting on Facebook like "nobody ever told me".

They did tell you, you just didn't listen.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> I went to an Ontario public school, and I was taught about the abuses in residential schools in high school.


Interesting. I was in Manitoba in highschool and I don't think we learned this. Or maybe it was a very brief topic.

As far as how the First Nations were generally abused and brutalized by the English... that's something I mainly learned from my family.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Why would government want to tell you they committed genocide (together with church and other organizations that ran the schools)?
Maybe then you might start asking why human rights are optional and would rather have human rights, such as not being interned without due process written in stone and not have them legally violated by unilateral decision of the government?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Interesting. I was in Manitoba in highschool and I don't think we learned this. Or maybe it was a very brief topic.
> 
> As far as how the First Nations were generally abused and brutalized by the English... that's something I mainly learned from my family.


Well it was a relatively brief topic in my class as well, but my point is that it was taught.
More importantly it was taught to the exact same people on Facebook saying they were never taught this.
Also I know they were taught because they still had good attendance at the start of high school. Remember, I'm talking about specific individuals I personally know. 
From my personal experience, and the fact that it has been part of the curriculum for many years.. I would suggest most people in Ontario were at least taught it (Canadian History is mandatory in Ontario). 

Honestly I think most people go through the world in a haze of ignorance and obliviousness, and are constantly shocked by reality.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Why would government want to tell you them committed genocide (together with church and other organizations that ran the schools)?
> Maybe then you might start asking why human rights are optional and would rather have human rights, such as not being interned without due process written in stone and not have them legally violated by unilateral decision of the government?


Why do you think I'm such a strong defender of human rights? 
Our government is better than most, and even we have a long history of human rights violations.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

I wouldn't argue it is better than most, especially among developed world. I think you will find that majority of governments didn't commit genocide. You will also find that majority of the countries have constitutions that protect the human rights from those in power, and not let those in power decide unilaterally whether human rights apply or not.

Canada has a certain reputation on the world stage, but it is completely undeserved based on how they treat aboriginals and how human rights are optional in it.

For those reasons I will stand alongside everyone fighting for human rights. Glad there are more people like that!


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> I wouldn't argue it is better than most, especially among developed world. I think you will find that majority of governments didn't commit genocide. You will also find that majority of the countries have constitutions that protect the human rights from those in power, and not let those in power decide unilaterally whether human rights apply or not.
> 
> Canada has a certain reputation on the world stage, but it is completely undeserved based on how they treat aboriginals and how human rights are optional in it.
> 
> For those reasons I will stand alongside everyone fighting for human rights. Glad there are more people like that!


Name a country that doesn't have a genocide on their hands, go back I'd think most have one of some sort.
The G7 are definitely not perfect here.

Name a country where those in power can't decide human rights don't apply in a particular case.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Don't have to look far. Country I was born in - Poland. There is plenty in Europe too. United States is also decent at it. Not familiar with constitutions of many other countries than that.
Also, residential schools were still active in 1996. You don't have to go back to middle-ages to find time when Canadian government committed genocide.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Residential school system was definitely covered in my high school history. I thought history in general was very poorly taught. It focused a lot on dumb chest-pounding battles in WWI as 'birth of the nation' and spent very little time on things since WW era or much nuance on the formation of Canada. The dynamics of pre-confederation Canada are actually pretty interesting. The natives are definitely not a monolith, as they are sometimes portrayed to be. They had their own geopolitical wrangling.

While residential schools were covered, and the fact that it was a racist system rife with abuse with the intent to forcibly assimilate natives, it was definitely not discussed that there were masses of deaths at them. I have to wonder if these deaths were even recorded anywhere. It was somewhat common practice to have unmarked graves but records of who was buried where. It sounds like at least some of these deaths were unrecorded, which leads to the question of how much was the result of murder or criminal neglect.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

damian13ster said:


> Don't have to look far. Country I was born in - Poland. There is plenty in Europe too. United States is also decent at it. Not familiar with constitutions of many other countries than that.
> Also, residential schools were still active in 1996. You don't have to go back to middle-ages to find time when Canadian government committed genocide.


While the last school closed in 1996, to claim that genocide was occurring in '96 is to stretch the truth to breaking.

And, I would not say that residential schools were really genocide (as in Dachau) as that is a real thing that has a real meaning. It was definitely systematic abuse and an attempt at cultural annihilation. There is a difference between trying to destroy a culture and trying to kill the individual.

Genocides in NA came earlier, between biological warfare and Indian wars.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> It's systemic racism in Canada. That's why people seem so shocked about all the murdered First Nations children.
> 
> On one hand, we never learned it in high school. On the other hand, kids I knew from high school used to constantly tell racist jokes about aboriginals. Some of them went driving through the poor parts of town to laugh and throw pennies at First Nations people. It sounds horrific but I'm not joking... this is what children were doing.
> 
> ...


james, you are talking about different things..... one thing to laugh and tell jokes, another thing to take kids from parents, sterilize them and kill them.... This is exactly what did Nazis to Jews


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> We WERE taught this in high school


 You were taught about killing thousands of kids and hiding their graves?! My kids recently graduated from high school and they didn't learn it


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> You were taught about killing thousands of kids and hiding their graves?! My kids recently graduated from high school and they didn't learn it


Please advise what province isn't teaching this is.
Ontario definitely is. (I've posted links to the cirriculumn)


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Teachers have a lot of leeway to skim over certain parts of the curriculum. My grade 10 history teacher neglected to cover anything post-WWII.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Honestly, I don't understand the reason to cover so little content, when you can present information like this in under and hour and give a lot of pretty rich contextual history and make it at least engaging/amusing:


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Please advise what province isn't teaching this is.
> Ontario definitely is. (I've posted links to the cirriculumn)


Ontario! My son graduated from IBT school. daughter from best Catholic school in Peel .... don't care what is in "cirriculumn" , but they didn't teach this "dark" part of Canadian history (as well as they didn't teach about Jews Holocaust survivals who was put into interim (concentration) camps together with Nazi criminals of War and so on) .... they were taught that "First nations weren't treated too nicely" ...
And how they could've learn it when unmarked graves of killed kids were discovered NOW?!


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> Ontario! My son graduated from IBT school. daughter from best Catholic school in Peel .... don't care what is in "cirriculumn" , but they didn't teach this "dark" part of Canadian history (as well as they didn't teach about Jews Holocaust survivals who was put into interim (concentration) camps together with Nazi criminals of War and so on) .... they were taught that "First nations weren't treated too nicely" ...
> And how they could've learn it when unmarked graves of killed kids were discovered NOW?!


I think your kids went to a crappy schools if they refused to follow the curriculum. 

These aren't the first unmarked graves where they dumped native bodies. 
They killed thousands of kids and discarded the bodies and conveniently "lost" the records. There were lots of "runaways" who were never found. The only part of this that is "news" is that someone found them. Everyone who was paying attention knew they existed.

They've been teaching this in schools for decades, or would be if the teachers were doing their jobs right. I've provided documentation that this is covered in the mandatory cirriculumn.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

andrewf said:


> While the last school closed in 1996, to claim that genocide was occurring in '96 is to stretch the truth to breaking.
> 
> And, I would not say that residential schools were really genocide (as in Dachau) as that is a real thing that has a real meaning. It was definitely systematic abuse and an attempt at cultural annihilation. There is a difference between trying to destroy a culture and trying to kill the individual.
> 
> Genocides in NA came earlier, between biological warfare and Indian wars.


If you don't consider destroying a culture by abuse and death a genocide then we simply have different goalposts.

Rome statute of the International Criminal Code:
Article 6 - *Genocide*
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its *physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.*

This is exactly what Canadian government did.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

'In part' renders a definition meaningless. Every murder is a genocide.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

andrewf said:


> 'In part' renders a definition meaningless. Every murder is a genocide.


'Deliberately inflicting on the *group*

Wasn't aware you won't read entire article. No, not every murder is genocide.

Taking children away from specific group, forced sterilization, physically beating the culture out of the children and killing many in the process - that's genocide.

If you find Rome statute and International Criminal Code meaningless then I am less and less surprised with Canadians being fine without having human rights protection


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> I think your kids went to a crappy schools if they refused to follow the curriculum.


On the opposite, my kids went to the best schools available! My son went to IBT program of Graydon Gordon and later he got double degree at Laurier and Waterloo , from day 1 works in solid Private Equity company and earning triple gidits.
My daughters after Gonzaga at 3rd year at Western and accepted to Ivy Business school (the best in Canada).
But, yes, if you want to teach your kids real history, you should do it! I remember what they learn about WWII LOL. They read one book about Canadian pilot (my coworker told me he had same experience 30 years ago ) ... So , kids get impression that Canada won WWII ....


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> If you don't consider destroying a culture by abuse and death a genocide then we simply have different goalposts.
> 
> Rome statute of the International Criminal Code:
> Article 6 - *Genocide*
> ...


Again , completely agree with this statement!
On the other hand , Canada recognizes *Holodomor* as a genocide LOL ... Only people who didn't live in communist camp can be brainwashed like this


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

It's a muddled definition if changing custody of children is classed as equivalent to nazi death camps. Actually killing people is much worse than removing children by force and putting them in schools with the goal of assimilating them. Both can be bad, while acknowledging one is worse!


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

I am not sure if one of the listed things have to happen, two out of three, or all three.
Canadian government hit the jackpot - they got them all. They abused, killed, sterilized, and interned kids against they will just for being natives.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> Again , completely agree with this statement!
> On the other hand , Canada recognizes *Holodomor* as a genocide LOL ... Only people who didn't live in communist camp can be brainwashed like this


Intentionally starving a population is not genocide?


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> It's a muddled definition if changing custody of children is classed as equivalent to nazi death camps. Actually killing people is much worse than removing children by force and putting them in schools with the goal of assimilating them. Both can be bad, while acknowledging one is worse!


I'm not sure at all that the goal was assimilating them. How come that we have thousands of unmarked children graves (and who knows how many more we gonna find)?! And what about sterilizing girls?! As a Jewish, I feel that what was done with First Nations is very similar to what Nazis did with Jews! When I first met and talked with First nations people, i was surprised why they don;t identify themselves as Canadian and don't recognize Canada as a country at all ...... but now I understand it very well


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Intentionally starving a population is not genocide?


Intentionally ?! Really?! First of all , Ukraine was rules by Ukrainian communists. The famine was everywhere.
_The *Russian famine of 1921–22*, also known as the *Povolzhye famine*, was a severe famine in the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic which began early in the spring of 1921 and lasted through 1922.

This famine killed an estimated 5 million people, primarily affecting the Volga and Ural River regions,[1] and peasants resorted to cannibalism._

*Povolzhye famine is not Ukraine, this is middle of Russia! 








Russian famine of 1921–1922 - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





There wasn't any intention to kill ONLY Ukranians!*
Actually, this is how my mom's family moved to Siberia, they were living in Volga region and moved east to avoid famine.

P.S. btw, *Felix Dzerzhinsky* , Head of Cheka , was one of the major murderers was ... from nobel Polish family !
_The Cheka became notorious for mass summary executions, performed especially during the Red Terror and the Russian Civil War.[24][25] The Cheka undertook drastic measures as thousands of political opponents and saboteurs were shot without trial in the basements of prisons and in public places.[26] Dzerzhinsky said: "We represent in ourselves organized terror—this must be said very clearly,"[27] and "[The Red Terror involves] the terrorization, arrests and extermination of enemies of the revolution on the basis of their class affiliation or of their pre-revolutionary roles."_


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> *Don't have to look far. Country I was born in - Poland*. There is plenty in Europe too. United States is also decent at it. Not familiar with constitutions of many other countries than that.
> Also, residential schools were still active in 1996. You don't have to go back to middle-ages to find time when Canadian government committed genocide.


It's not exactly true, 
*Devastating research by Warsaw-based group indicates ordinary citizens played a role in hundreds of thousands of deaths — significantly higher than previous estimates, Arriving amid a polarizing debate in Poland over a law that limits rhetoric on Polish complicity in the Holocaust, the study suggests Poles bore partial responsibility for hundreds of thousands of deaths of Jews in the Holocaust — a figure that is significantly higher than previous estimates. *









Poles fatally betrayed most of country’s Jews in hiding from Nazis, study claims


Devastating research by Warsaw-based group indicates ordinary citizens played a role in hundreds of thousands of deaths — significantly higher than previous estimates




www.timesofisrael.com





And I bet , you remember Polish leader Gomulka, when Jewish were escaping from Poland to Dubcek Czechoslovakia 
*In 1967–68 Gomułka allowed outbursts of "anti-Zionist" political propaganda,[2] which turned into an anti-Semitic campaign, pursued primarily by others in the Party, but utilized by Gomułka to retain power by shifting the attention from the stagnating economy. Many of the remaining Polish Jews left the country. *


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

So it wasn't nazis who committed genocide after all? It was a country they attacked and where they built the camps?
You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.
My immediate family were killed by nazis for hiding jewish people during the round-up.
They entered a house, and I am here only because in commotion a crib with my grandfather was knocked over, causing him to hit his head and pass out so he wasn't noticed. His sisters and brothers, parents, and grandparents were shot on the spot. My family were willing to risk their lives to help, and paid dearly for it.
I can understand why other families wouldn't take that risk. And saying you are not willing to have your entire family murdered on the spot to save a stranger is equivalent to committing holocaust is absolutely despicable.

You also don't know **** about Soviet occupation times. Until events with Solidarity and fall of Berlin Wall, Poland was under occupation. Every single leader was appointed, approved, and controlled by the soviets. Did soviet appointed government use anti-Semitic rhetoric? Yes. Did it lead to genocide? No. Jews didn't run away, weren't prosecuted, weren't killed, weren't interned. Same reason they are now leaving France, yet no one (rightfully so) claims France is in the process of committing genocide. It is exactly the same as politicians now in Canada promoting racism to stay in power. Wrong? Yes. Evil? Yes. Genocide? No.

Don't talk about things you have zero knowledge about.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

I have more knowledge about this piece of history that you can think, I know that many Poles were saving Jews, but many collaborated with Nazis. And I posted above article about it. Much worse situation was in Ukraine, you should know about Bandera, Shukhevych (both awarded "Hero of Ukraine" , Ukrainian SS divisions and so on.



> Jews didn't run away


 Actually , yes, they did !

P.S. btw, huge respect to your family for hiding Jewish people!


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_there is no evidence for Stalin's intention to kill the Ukrainians deliberately. The Holodomor "was a foreseeable byproduct of the collectivization campaign that Stalin forcibly imposed, but not an intentional murder. He needed the peasants to produce more grain, and to export the grain to buy the industrial machinery for the industrialization. 
The only countries that have recognized the Holodomor as an act of genocide: Argentina, Australia, Canada, Colombia, Ecuador, Estonia, Georgia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Mexico, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Ukraine, and the Vatican. _


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

182 unmarked graves found near former residential school outside Cranbrook, B.C.


Another Indigenous community in B.C. says ground-penetrating radar has found human remains near a former residential school.




bc.ctvnews.ca





_In a statement released Wednesday, the Lower Kootenay Band said remains of 182 people were found in unmarked graves close to the former St. Eugene's Mission School near Cranbrook. 
The announcement comes just over a month after the Tk'emlups te Secwepemc First Nation announced the remains of 215 children were found buried on the site of a former residential school in Kamloops. 

Weeks later, the Cowessess First Nation said 751 unmarked graves were found near a former residential school in Saskatchewan. _

And how much more will be found in the future?! Ridiculous!


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> And how much more will be found in the future?! Ridiculous!


Thousands.
I agree it's ridiculous that people are shocked by facts that were taught to them in school.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Thousands.
> I agree it's ridiculous that people are shocked by facts that were taught to them in school.


If you are referring to me, I graduated from high school and University in Soviet Union  .... They mentioned us about extremely cruel treatment of Fist nations in NA, but , as i said, I thought this is communist' propaganda...
And this is really ridiculous how they teach it in Canadian schools.... As per comments I've seen on different platforms, vast majority had no idea about this genocide. Or maybe 1 thing is theory and other thing when you can see those unmarked graves.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> If you are referring to me, I graduated from high school and University in Soviet Union  .... They mentioned us about extremely cruel treatment of Fist nations in NA, but , as i said, I thought this is communist' propaganda...
> And this is really ridiculous how they teach it in Canadian schools.... As per comments I've seen on different platforms, vast majority had no idea about this genocide. Or maybe 1 thing is theory and other thing when you can see those unmarked graves.


Well I pointed out that it is in the cirriculumn and decades ago I was taught about the abuses in the system.
Also my history teacher was an older lady, who retired by the time I finished high school. She wasn't some young social activist, she was a old school teacher.

I think the people who are "shocked" are being purposely ignorant of the facts they were provided, until it became politically popular to be shocked by them.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Well I pointed out that it is in the cirriculumn and decades ago I was taught about the abuses in the system.
> Also my history teacher was an older lady, who retired by the time I finished high school. She wasn't some young social activist, she was a old school teacher.
> 
> I think the people who are "shocked" are being purposely ignorant of the facts they were provided, until it became politically popular to be shocked by them.


I just asked my daughter again (she graduated 3 years ago from the best Catholic school in Peel with amazing marks). She said that the only thing they learn - that there were residential schools for First nations' kids. That's it! Nothing about abducting, sterilizing, killing, unmarked graves etc


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The high school curriculum mentions the residential schools in passing, but it is doubtful that people knew about all the missing children buried on the school grounds or the conditions that the children were living under.

That is why it is a such a horrific revelation today. It reminds me of the Ontario psychiatric hospitals and what went on inside them before they were closed.

A Catholic priest in Toronto just resigned after giving a sermon lamenting that the "good things" about residential schools aren't discussed enough.

He is one brain dead preacher. Hopefully in his next career he will be kept well clear of children or vulnerable people.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> I just asked my daughter again (she graduated 3 years ago from the best Catholic school in Peel with amazing marks). She said that the only thing they learn - that there were residential schools for First nations' kids. That's it! Nothing about abducting, sterilizing, killing, unmarked graves etc


Okay, so she got an overly sanitized and unrealistic description of what happened.

That isn't the mark of a first rate school.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> I have more knowledge about this piece of history that you can think, I know that many Poles were saving Jews, but many collaborated with Nazis. And I posted above article about it. Much worse situation was in Ukraine, you should know about Bandera, Shukhevych (both awarded "Hero of Ukraine" , Ukrainian SS divisions and so on.
> 
> Actually , yes, they did !
> 
> P.S. btw, huge respect to your family for hiding Jewish people!


Well, your response and the article you posted indicate otherwise.

1. Article is on a topic completely unrelated to genocide
2. The statement you pasted here was out of context, used solely for gaslighting
3. The number is literally pulled out of the ***. There is no substance to it.
4. The penalty for hiding a person of jewish faith was death. Not only to the person. Not only to the entire family of the person, but for the entire building!
5. The author believes that if you didn't sign-up to become a martyr and you didn't sacrifice lives of entire community to save someone, then you are nazi collaborator. That is absolutely ludicrous. By that standard we are all collaborators in genocide as we do have knowledge of genocide happening all over the world and we are doing nothing about it.
6. The person my family hid literally put everyone in the building in mortal danger and ultimately led to them being killed by the nazis. By the author's logic, the jewish friend who did nothing wrong but tried to save his life was a nazi collaborator by leading them to kill entire building worth of people?
Again - that is ludicrous.
7. Poland had highest % of our population killed by Nazis in the entire world!, yet you accuse in the nation conspiring with Nazis in genocide - ridiculous. 

I really hope you taking sentence out of context from article talking about completely different problem and using it to argue that nation committed genocide is pure oversight and ignorance, rather than vile intent.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

I don't want to argue with you about tis topic,,,, just small remark regarding 
7. Poland had highest % of our population killed by Nazis in the entire world!, - you just didn't mention that _It is estimated that the Germans *killed* between 1.8 and 1.9 million non-Jewish *Polish civilians during World War II*. In addition, the Germans *murdered at* least 3 million Jewish citizens of *Poland*. At least 98 percent of Jews in Poland at the time were killed _
So, when you are talking about "highest %" - it's not relevant


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

It is very relevant. We don't separate citizens by religion. They were Polish citizens. They were part of Polish nation. Their death from hands of the Nazis is mourned exactly the same as Polish citizen of any other religion. Poland was literally a country in Europe with highest amount of Jews. Surely those Jews didn't choose a nation to live in where they were on a verge of genocide by said nation?
Also, your numbers are off by at least 1 million. Your numbers are backwards. 3 million non-Jewish citizens of Poland were killed. But that is absolutely irrelevant. Simply shows that your sources are wrong and you should always double check what you base your knowledge on.
There is general consensus among scholars that, unlike in Western Europe, Polish collaboration with the Nazi Germans was insignificant.

The imposition of the death penalty for Poles aiding Jews was unique to Poland among all German-occupied countries, and was a result of the conspicuous and spontaneous nature of such an aid.[78] For example, the Ulma family (father, mother and six children) of the village of Markowa near Łańcut – where many families concealed their Jewish neighbors – were executed jointly by the Nazis with the eight Jews they hid.[79] The entire Wołyniec family in Romaszkańce was massacred for sheltering three Jewish refugees from a ghetto. In Maciuńce, for hiding Jews, the Germans shot eight members of Józef Borowski's family along with him and four guests who happened to be there.[80] Nazi death squads carried out mass executions of the entire villages that were discovered to be aiding Jews on a communal level.[35][81] In the villages of Białka near Parczew and Sterdyń near Sokołów Podlaski, 150 villagers were massacred for sheltering Jews.[82]

The Polish government and its underground representatives at home issued declarations that people acting against the Jews (blackmailers and others) would be punished by death. General Władysław Sikorski, the Prime Minister and Commander-in-Chief of the Polish Armed Forces, signed a decree calling upon the Polish population to extend aid to the persecuted Jews; including the following stern warning.[157]

- Any direct and indirect complicity in the German criminal actions is the most serious offence against Poland. Any Pole who collaborates in their acts of murder, whether by extortion, informing on Jews, or by exploiting their terrible plight or participating in acts of robbery, is committing a major crime against the laws of the Polish Republic. 

The crime of aiding Nazis was punishable by death.

Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust - Wikipedia

And you have absolutely no argument. You are wrong. It is as simple as that. Historians confirm that, witnesses confirm that, victims confirm that. Numbers confirm that. Jews confirm that. Poles were the single nation that helped most Jews avoid death during holocaust. Another undeniable fact. Hell, we were the ones who alerted the world of what is going on and pleaded British and Americans to stop it. Our general literally volunteered to be taken prisoner in Auschwitz so he can report on the conditions there and alert the Brits in 1941. Unfortunately they dismissed those reports.

Your ignorance is absolutely despicable. Shame on you
You are basically a flat-earther of holocaust history


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

My numbers aren't backward! It's quote from Polish Victims.

I know that many Poles were hiding Jews, and also many Poles were collaborating with Nazis. 
_Despite severe penalties, more Christian Poles have been recognized as Righteous Among the Nations—those who risked their lives to aid Jews—than citizens of any other country in Europe.* But many others supported and enabled Germany in its campaign to exterminate the Jews.*
The Truth About Poland's Role in the Holocaust 

It is very relevant. We don't separate citizens by religion. They were Polish citizens. - _It doesn't matter if you separate or not. The fact is that majority of killed civilians in Poland were Jewish people. So, you count them to claim that Poland had the highest % of casualties in the World?! 
The same Soviet propaganda was talking about Belorus , that every 3 Belorussian was killed, not mentioning that vast majority of killed civilians were Jewish.
Your ignorance is absolutely despicable. Shame on you.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Just read an article below from Washington post that supports my view ... sure you can tell that the facts listed there are lies 


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/02/02/yes-some-poles-were-nazi-collaborators-the-polish-parliament-is-trying-to-legislate-that-away/


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

You aren't addressing any of the facts present. Clearly, the total estimates vary, especially given that Soviets were behind most of those reports.
These provide that over 3 million non Jewish Poles died:
Poland's Population balance 1939-1950
Keegan, John _The Second World War_ 1989 
Poland. Bureau odszkodowan wojennych(BOW), Statement on war losses and damages of Poland in 1939–1945. Warsaw 1947 
Messenger, Charles _Chronological Atlas of World War Two_ 1989 
Richard C Lukas _Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles Under German Occupation 1939-1944_ 1986 

You pick one statistic where sources clearly vary, and don't address anything else.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> Just read an article below from Washington post that supports my view ... sure you can tell that the facts listed there are lies
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/02/02/yes-some-poles-were-nazi-collaborators-the-polish-parliament-is-trying-to-legislate-that-away/


I read that. This doesn't negate anything that I have said.
Yes, there were individuals who collaborated. That doesn't amount to genocide.
The penalty instated by Polish government for those individuals was death penalty.
There are people who break the law.
If Israeli national commits murder, I am not going to state that nation of Israel committed genocide.
You are arguing that Polish nation committed genocide during holocaust - that is blatantly false, blasphemy, and disingenuous.
If you are saying that there were Polish individuals that committed a capital crime - there is no argument there.
Individuals committing capital punishment crime is not a genocide


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Well I pointed out that it is in the cirriculumn and decades ago I was taught about the abuses in the system.
> Also my history teacher was an older lady, who retired by the time I finished high school. She wasn't some young social activist, she was a old school teacher.
> 
> I think the people who are "shocked" are being purposely ignorant of the facts they were provided, until it became politically popular to be shocked by them.


I have to say I am one of those shocked. I was born and raised in Canada but was truly grateful to be in this great country due to my immigrant parents. I did extremely well in school. The facts that I remember being taught was there were residential schools that were created to help the Indigenous assimilate to the European culture and give their people a better education. Some ran away because they didn't want to be assimilated. I was taught that some choose to take this education, while others decided to remain on there own remaining land. That was the gist of it. There was a little that the cultures didn't mix, but other than that, it was a blip in my education. 

My kids now are learning a lot more, and am embarrassed to say, I didn't know why. I can tell you that I am most definitely ignorant, but its not because I choose to ignore the facts. I was ignorant and still am, but becoming a little less through my own research. I can totally understand why this is so shocking for so many of us. 




MrMatt said:


> Okay, so she got an overly sanitized and unrealistic description of what happened.
> 
> That isn't the mark of a first rate school.


I think most schools sanitized it. As a side note, the failed newly drafted proposed Alberta curriculum made references that the residential schools where a place parent SENT their kids. In 2020, there was no mention that the kids were ripped away from their family and culture. There was more in the curriculum about Gangues Khan than the horrors on our own soil.  

It is no surprise there is so much sterilization. Look who has been in charge. It has only been due to the recent events that I have begun to understand systemic racism and the impacts.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> I have to say I am one of those shocked. I was born and raised in Canada but was truly grateful to be in this great country due to my immigrant parents. I did extremely well in school. The facts that I remember being taught was there were residential schools that were created to help the Indigenous assimilate to the European culture and give their people a better education. Some ran away because they didn't want to be assimilated. I was taught that some choose to take this education, while others decided to remain on there own remaining land. That was the gist of it. There was a little that the cultures didn't mix, but other than that, it was a blip in my education.


Well honestly I think that is the well meaning white supremacist thought pattern.
They're different, obviously we can do better.
Even now large numbers of "white people" are pushing to "help", even when it's not wanted, or runs counter to the needs of the group they're "helping"

The racism needs to stop.


My education was much more nuanced.
The reality though is child abuse was rampant at the time, the idea that children were people with rights is a relatively new concept in any case. It's still legal to beat your kids in Canada TODAY!!!



> My kids now are learning a lot more, and am embarrassed to say, I didn't know why. I can tell you that I am most definitely ignorant, but its not because I choose to ignore the facts. I was ignorant and still am, but becoming a little less through my own research. I can totally understand why this is so shocking for so many of us.


Thousands of children "went missing" at the residential schools, and First Nations have been complaining about the abuses for decades.
I think that it's at best a willful ignorance.
Maybe your teachers choose to gloss over it.

There were good schools and positive experiences, but it's politically unacceptable to say this.



> It is no surprise there is so much sterilization. Look who has been in charge. It has only been due to the recent events that I have begun to understand systemic racism and the impacts.


Of course, why do you think that giving authorities free reign to do what they want without repercussions is a bad idea.
That's why it is so terrifying that Trudeau is intent on silencing dissenting opinions.
Why do you think they seal most aspects of government actions against families? 
They're still seizing kids from families, and most provinces have given authorities immunity. Throw a gag order on the parents and you've got the ideal situation.

This is going on today. But most people will dismiss the criticism, "oh they're a bad person", rather than listen to the concerns.

That's why they want to silence an opposition. If people actually spoke freely about the problems, and issues they wouldn't be able to bury it.

Things like this is why I want dialog, and I also want to stop Trudeau and his white supremacist agenda.
He's dumping billions into programs promoting systematic racism, and that's a problem. It's the same logic that led to the worst abuses in Canadian history, and people refuse to see it.

This time they're going to have to admit to something, finding hundreds of bodies (we know there are thousands) has forced their hands.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> I read that. This doesn't negate anything that I have said.
> Yes, there were individuals who collaborated. That doesn't amount to genocide.
> The penalty instated by Polish government for those individuals was death penalty.
> There are people who break the law.
> ...


Sorry, I’ve never said the Poland committed genocide during Holocaust, you misunderstood me... I just was telling that some Poles collaborated with Nazis during Holocaust


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> Sorry, I’ve never said the Poland committed genocide during Holocaust, you misunderstood me... I just was telling that some Poles collaborated with Nazis during Holocaust


The post you were replying to and disagreed with stated that nation of Poland didn't commit genocide. 
Not that there isn't a single murdered, racist, or anti-Semitist in the entire country. Such claim wouldn't be true about any single country, religion, state, or race in the world.

That clears it up then!


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> The post you were replying to and disagreed with stated that nation of Poland didn't commit genocide.
> Not that there isn't a single murdered, racist, or anti-Semitist in the entire country. Such claim wouldn't be true about any single country, religion, state, or race in the world.
> 
> That clears it up then!


AFAIR, somebody posted that practically every country in the World has some “dark past”.... you replied that Poland doesn’t... Then I replied that Poland also is not saint 😁...and gave some examples... 
Obviously if Poland or Ukraine wouldn’t even exist, German Nazi would still set Holocaust


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> AFAIR, somebody posted that practically every country in the World has some “dark past”.... you replied that Poland doesn’t... Then I replied that Poland also is not saint 😁...and gave some examples...
> Obviously if Poland or Ukraine wouldn’t even exist, German Nazi would still set Holocaust


This is exact post that reply was to. Genocide is clearly stated there:

Name a country that doesn't have a genocide on their hands, go back I'd think most have one of some sort.
The G7 are definitely not perfect here.

Name a country where those in power can't decide human rights don't apply in a particular case.


So I gave example of a country that doesn't have a genocide on their hands. And there is plenty more.

Just because Canadian government committed genocide, doesn't mean that majority of others did.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

I agree with statement that practically every country has some “dark past”, some darker than others.... and i was shocked discovering that Canada , not long time ago, was doing to First Nations, what Nazis did to Jewish..I wouldn’t be surprised if Nazi War criminals (that were welcomed into Canada those times) were employed by those schools. ...earlier I was shocked discovering how antiSemitic was Canadian government by treating Holocaust survivors...


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> I agree with statement that practically every country has some “dark past”, some darker than others.... and i was shocked discovering that Canada , not long time ago, was doing to First Nations, what Nazis did to Jewish..I wouldn’t be surprised if Nazi War criminals (that were welcomed into Canada those times) were employed by those schools. ...earlier I was shocked discovering how antiSemitic was Canadian government by treating Holocaust survivorst he did ...


Not so fun fact I learned, Hitler based the concentration camps on what he learned from the residential schools. Horrifying fact my kids learned at school that I did not.

i assure you I never learned this at school


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> Not so fun fact I learned, Hitler based the concentration camps on what he learned from the residential schools. Horrifying fact my kids learned at school that I did not.
> 
> i assure you I never learned this at school


I though you are joking..... but I googled it and here we go ... the 1st hit








Hitler's love of the Wild West may have inspired concentration camps


Adolf Hitler admired camps where Indigenous Americans were contained in the hope of erasing their identity, an author has claimed in a book about camps set up in Canada.




www.dailymail.co.uk




Indeed, even before reading this article, I've noticed many similarities....
_'Where the Nazi camps lasted a little more than a decade, Canada’s continued for almost 150 years.' _
P.S. As I mentioned before, we learned it briefly in Soviet Union school, but wrongly I attributed it to Soviet Propaganda


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> The post you were replying to and disagreed with stated that nation of Poland didn't commit genocide.
> Not that there isn't a single murdered, racist, or anti-Semitist in the entire country. Such claim wouldn't be true about any single country, religion, state, or race in the world.
> 
> *That clears it up then!*


OK....That clears it up then! I've never assumed that Poland is responsible for Holocaust ..... and comparing to "Ukrainian and Lithuanian auxiliaries" (who killed tons of Jews as well as Poles) , Poland was an angel!


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> I though you are joking..... but I googled it and here we go ... the 1st hit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought my kid was being dramatic and did a little fact checking. Residential schools may have I posted Hitler. My heart sinks just writing that. 

I was speaking to a collegue from India. He also shared his views on the colonization of India, and the treatment of the Indians by the British. There are a lot of similarities too. Not the same death, but considering them savages and lesser. 

The racist needs to end. However, I am just beginning to understand how deep systemic racism is and touches any society that has been colonized. I used to think all this politica or ect ness was just crap and raising a bunch sensitive snowflakes. I am beginning to see that is said by those that wrote the rules, adathose sentsitive snowflakes,and have been burying things deep down inside. i Have been thinking this through woth my socially aware kids, and starting to rethink a lot of things I grew up with.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> I thought my kid was being dramatic and did a little fact checking. Residential schools may have I posted Hitler. *My heart sinks just writing that. *


Believe my, mine too!
Just read




__





The Final Solution - Which Government Used the Term First?


The final solution. Who used it first?The Nazi Party of Germany or Duncan Campbell Scott, Deputy Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, Canada?




www.ictinc.ca




_“The final solution”
Question - who used the term first?
The Nazi Party of Germany or Duncan Campbell Scott, Deputy Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, Canada?
The Nazi Party of Germany termed its policy of extermination of Jewish men, women and children during World War II as the Final Solution to the Jewish Question.
Duncan Campbell Scott used the term in 1910 to describe the goal of the Department of Indian Affairs in dealing with the Indian Problem._


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Plugging Along said:


> I was speaking to a collegue from India. He also shared his views on the colonization of India, and the treatment of the Indians by the British. There are a lot of similarities too. Not the same death, but considering them savages and lesser.


It's a key trait of European colonization of other countries, just a mind set of the Europeans (British, French, Spanish, and others). They viewed people in these other lands as savages or inferior to the great _Christian_ Europeans.

European colonial pursuits were *inherently* racist. Just about everyone in the world knows this ... people in North America, South America, Africa, India, the middle east ... all of these people experienced invading Europeans who waved around their "racial superiority" and beat the locals over the head with it.

You can look anywhere in the world and you see the same thing, whether it's Brazil or Australia. The white Europeans saw themselves as the superior race. Then they used force (violence) to dominate those they saw as inferior -- really anyone with darker skin -- taking their land, resources, and completely destroying their society.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

As they say in war......to the victor go the spoils.

The US invaded China to ensure access to cocaine. Japan invaded China. The British and US invaded Iran and other Arab nations to access the oil.

The US tried to invade Canada, but we pushed them back and burned the White House and Capital buildings in Washington DC to the ground.

The US tried to invade Cuba but it ended up a disaster in the Bay of Pigs debacle.

It s all well documented, but that was then and now is now.

You can't change or rewrite history. All you can do is recognize the past and move forward.









Burning of Washington - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

Why would anyone expect a Catholic school to teach about the atrocities committed by the Catholic church; of course it was sanitized.
I also find it interesting that people's 'history' only goes back to colonization. There were plenty of atrocities happening before colonization - don't see anyone apologizing for that.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> It's a key trait of European colonization of other countries, just a mind set of the Europeans (British, French, Spanish, and others). They viewed people in these other lands as savages or inferior to the great _Christian_ Europeans.
> 
> European colonial pursuits were *inherently* racist. Just about everyone in the world knows this ... people in North America, South America, Africa, India, the middle east ... all of these people experienced invading Europeans who waved around their "racial superiority" and beat the locals over the head with it.
> 
> You can look anywhere in the world and you see the same thing, whether it's Brazil or Australia. The white Europeans saw themselves as the superior race. Then they used force (violence) to dominate those they saw as inferior -- really anyone with darker skin -- taking their land, resources, and completely destroying their society.


Part of it was the far more effective culture and technologies.
You have to remember there were also well meaning people (racist or not) who wanted to share their better ways with these people.

While there were clearly bad actors, It wasn't all evil intent.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Retired Peasant said:


> Why would anyone expect a Catholic school to teach about the atrocities committed by the Catholic church; of course it was sanitized.
> I also find it interesting that people's 'history' only goes back to colonization. There were plenty of atrocities happening before colonization - don't see anyone apologizing for that.


Catholic church and Canadian government.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Catholic church and Canadian government.


Obviously! Catholic church wouldn't be able to do it w/o Canadian government!

james, you are talking about colonization times , but Canadian genocide was even in 1960's!


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


Yes, so why don't you denounce ALL RACISM?

"Good racism", is still racism, and still wrong, no matter your intentions.


----------



## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

damian13ster said:


> Catholic church and Canadian government.


Well, we were discussing the curriculum, so why would you expect the Catholic schools to teach about the atrocities committed at residential schools run by them?


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Retired Peasant said:


> Well, we were discussing the curriculum, so why would you expect the Catholic schools to teach about the atrocities committed at residential schools run by them?


It's not only Catholic schools, my son graduated from IBT program at Graydon Gordon and they didn't learn about this genocide... and looking of other CMF members replies, except Matt , same was a situation in other schools.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> It's not only Catholic schools, my son graduated from IBT program at Graydon Gordon and they didn't learn about this genocide... and looking of other CMF members replies, except Matt , same was a situation in other schools.


Honestly I'm shocked that the teachers aren't following the curriculum. 
I am truly grateful that I actually went to a first rate school. 

I know the teachers unions are bad, but I didn't think that they were participating in systematic racism like this.

I think it would be politically bad for Doug Ford to do it, but I think we need an inquiry why so many teachers are able to get away not teaching according to the cirruculumn.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Yes, so why don't you denounce ALL RACISM?
> 
> "Good racism", is still racism, and still wrong, no matter your intentions.


I do, but your contention that white people are discriminated against is not worthy of consideration.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Honestly I'm shocked that the teachers aren't following the curriculum.


simply because the teachers are humans and they teaching as per their agenda.... you can teach anything in specific perspective


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I do, but your contention that white people are discriminated against is not worthy of consideration.


Why is it always about white people to you?
I simply think nobody should be treated differently because of their race, I reject ALL racism.

You don't. You think some racism and discrimination is OK.
You're wrong.

Yes I know that you claim that as long as it "only' discriminates against whites, asians, and indigenous people, it's "not really racism".
Or it "helps black people" it isn't racism.

Yes it is, if it's discriminating based on race, it's racism, and it's hurting people.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is no discrimination against white people.......end of story.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> There is no discrimination against white people.......end of story.


That is simply not true. 
You can discriminate against any group, and there is discrimination against every group.

At this point, I don't know if you're brainwashed or a troll.

Plus it doesn't matter, ALL RACISM is wrong.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> That is simply not true.
> You can discriminate against any group, and there is discrimination against every group.
> 
> At this point, I don't know if you're brainwashed or a troll.
> ...


He's brainwashed troll LOL


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> There is no discrimination against white people.......end of story.


There are a lot of white Muslims.... so there is no discrimination against Muslims!


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> That is simply not true.
> You can discriminate against any group, and there is discrimination against every group.
> 
> At this point, I don't know if you're brainwashed or a troll.
> ...


You claim anything that enables people of color is discriminatory against white people. Such a ridiculous claim isn't worthy of debate.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> He's brainwashed troll LOL


Who's being racist "for your own good", that's the worst kind of racist.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> You claim anything that enables people of color is discriminatory against white people. Such a ridiculous claim isn't worthy of debate.


No, I'm claiming anything that discriminates based on race is racial discrimination.

I don't care who it is discriminating for or against, it doesn't matter.
I think treating all people fairly and equally as individuals, irrespective of race, enables EVERYONE.

If you treat all people fairly that enables all people. ALL PEOPLE.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

All lives matter.....all racism is wrong......are simple minded slogans created by those who desire to retain the status quo and to belittle the concerns raised by the legitimate protest groups who suffered from systemic racism.

Groups that never suffered from systemic racism don't need protection from something that never happened to them.

_If you treat all people fairly that enables all people. ALL PEOPLE._

Therein lies the crux of the problem. All people weren't treated fairly and initiatives had to be implemented to correct for that reality.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> All lives matter.....all racism is wrong......are simple minded slogans created by those who desire to retain the status quo and to belittle the concerns raised by the legitimate protest groups who suffered from systemic racism.
> 
> Groups that never suffered from systemic racism don't need protection from something that never happened to them.
> 
> ...


But you're the one arguing not to treat all people fairly today.
You, SAGS are the one saying we should treat people differently?

When does it end? What day do we finally say "we should treat everyone fairly today".

I say that day is here, it is now, treat people equally today.

Yes "all racism is wrong", it's a simple truth.

I don't want the status quo, I'm actively against it. The real question is why aren't you?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Groups that never suffered from systemic racism don't need protection from something that never happened to them.


Just to be clear, I'm not demanding "protection" from racial discrimination.

I'm arguing that the government should not create and promote systematic racism.
It was wrong yesterday, it is wrong today, and it will be wrong tomorrow.

That's something white supremacists like you don't seem to understand, RACISM IS WRONG.


I think Al Sharptom said it best.





Equality TODAY, not tomorrow sags, TODAY!


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

You have a lot of patience Matt. He is hopeless. Ffs, on a financial forum where people might actually have math skills, his contribution to politics section has zero value on policies, zero insight on actual results, but a lot of reference to hairstyle. 
Save your time


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> There are a lot of white Muslims.... so there is no discrimination against Muslims!


It's true that there are white Muslims, but they still face discrimination. I have coworkers who are white, but born in Muslim countries, who have been pulled aside when crossing through the US/Canada border and interrogated by US authorities -- sometimes for hours!

It's plain discrimination and Muslims have been suffering from it for a long time. In the US and Canada, authorities have routinely spied on and targeted Muslims in their surveillance activities.

It's even worse in China, where Muslims are rounded up and sent to forced labour camps. In Myanmar and Sri Lanka, various groups in power have attacked Muslims and in Myanmar they are slaughtering Muslims for sport.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

If you see getting interrogated when crossing a border discrimination, then I have been discriminated against in 7 countries on 4 continents..... There is racism, but you can't attribute everything to it.
Unless you can prove that they were interrogated because they are muslim, it wasn't racism and shouldn't be used as an evidence of such.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Muslim is a religion.....not a race.

I think it was Mr. Matt who initiated the mass confusion among the stalwart defenders of white priviledge.

Maybe not.......it is hard to tell. He bounces his theories around more than bingo balls.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

His opinion is pretty consistent: racism is wrong. Quite simple, and frankly one I agree with


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Authorities spy on somebody not because he/she is Muslim, but because they suspect him/her for terrorist activity.
When crossing Canada/US border, sags’ dad wasn’t allowed at all to enter States. As per sags, he was going to attend church , not Mosque lol.. Consider it as discrimination of Whire Christians.
My mother-in-law was interrogated for 6 hours on US/Canada border , because she had Israeli passport (with valid US Visa). She was 70 that time. We should’ve be with her (with kids) and were put in tiny room where tons of other people and I even wasn’t allowed to go outside for smoke or buy food.
I was fired from my 1st job (government one) , because in last 5 years I was living in Israel....
So, please cut BS about Muslims discrimination


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

And James, why you are giving China as an example!? There are many cases like in China... in South Africa , for example, there is discrimination (even genocid) against White and Jewish... There are bunch of Arab countries where Jewish cannot even land for layover ...
We are talking here about developed countries


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Muslim is a religion.....not a race.
> 
> I think it was Mr. Matt who initiated the mass confusion among the stalwart defenders of white priviledge.
> 
> Maybe not.......it is hard to tell. He bounces his theories around more than bingo balls.


Yes, Islam is a religion, not a race.
There are white Muslims, who are discriminated against.
Therefore there are white people who are discriminated against.

I don't see how I initiated mass confusion, but I really don't care about "white priviledge"

I'm not really pushing many theories, but in this thread it's really simple "racism is bad".

You're the one who seems confused, you claim some is good, and some is bad, and sometimes discrimination isn't discrimination because of some bizarre logic that discriminating by race isn't discriminating by race in some cases.


----------

