# Have you changed from 2016 to 2020



## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

I appreciated that few if any CMF's are eligible US voters but everyone regardless seems to have an opinion on the Presidential election.

Not interested in having this thread as a back and forth slamming each other but would like to hear from anyone who has changed their thinking from 2016. Would you have voted D in 2016 and this time R, or visa versa R in 2016 and D this time? If so tell us why. Lets hear from _only those who have changed_ AND allow them to tell us why without being slammed.

I will not be commenting further as my own vote would not have changed.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

I would not have voted in the last election.
If I could, I'd likely vote Trump, for the same reason as most, the opposition is just horrible.

Someone like Yang would have been nice, but you have only the choices in front of you.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

No, If i could have voted in 2016 & 2020 would vote Trump both times.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm not a US voter, but lived there throughout nearly all the Trump years. I've been working and hanging out with American conservatives while all this happened.

The main thing I've learned by interacting with American conservatives is just how dramatically they have changed since about 2015. In these years, right-leaning Americans seem to have suffered a rapid deterioration. They've become crazier, less grounded in reality, and more cult-like.

Many of them have lost their minds. It makes me wonder if Canadian conservatives will follow the same fate (I hope not).

Back in 2015 and 2016, American conservatives had reasonable things to say. They initially had a healthy distrust of many politicians including Trump. But some really weird stuff started happening around 2016-2017 ... a huge growth in the far-right, their media outlets, conspiracy theories, etc. And I started seeing people in real life repeat all the garbage being published by the far-right media. What was initially a healthy distrust of politicians turned into a pure MAGA cult. Today, these people mindlessly praise their king.

IMO right wing extremists have taken over America and are now firmly in control. There's an ecosystem of conspiracy theories and right-wing propaganda networks that keeps it all alive. One major driver is Fox News, a far-right propaganda machine which brainwashes mostly elderly viewers. There's also a large network of online far-right (originally called alt-right) conspiracy web sites which circulate nutty stories.

What I experienced first hand living in the US was witnessing a radical shift. The right wing moved so far to the right (extremism) that it has basically become unrecognizable by traditional American values and western norms. For example, these days you will find many Republicans saying that Trump should seize power any way he can, in complete violation of American values (democracy and fair elections).

I also started seeing something unimaginable: gangs of *armed* right wing extremists started showing up in my city and marching around in the streets in a show of force. That's pretty much when I decided that I have to get out of the USA... it's too crazy for me.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

In 2016 I thought Trump was a blowhard with no political experience who would make a terrible President. He has done a better job than I expected. I wish the Democrats had a better candidate. As Bill Maher said some time ago, all the Dems need to do to win, is nominate someone less crazy than Trump. Too bad they don't have anyone like that.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

james4beach said:


> I'm not a US voter, but lived there throughout nearly all the Trump years. I've been working and hanging out with American conservatives while all this happened.
> 
> The main thing I've learned by interacting with American conservatives is just how dramatically they have changed since about 2015. In these years, right-leaning Americans seem to have suffered a rapid deterioration. They've become crazier, less grounded in reality, and more cult-like.
> 
> ...


James where are these right wing extremists taking over control? I have seen videos of left wing BLM and Antifa thugs rioting, burning, looting and setting up so called autonomous zones in Us cities but never heard of any right wingers doing the same. Example, Seattle, Portland, Milwaukee, and possibly Baltimore and San Francisco. Where are the right wing autonomous zones?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> James where are these right wing extremists taking over control?


They control nearly all aspects of government. White House, Justice Department, etc.

The president and his White House staff are sitting there re-tweeting right wing extremist content. These guys *are the extremists*: they run the country. They already won, and now they're just trying to cling to power.

It's why the white supremacists, KKK, neo Nazis, and armed militias are so happy with Trump. This is _their guy, _and he's in charge.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> He has done a better job than I expected.


Exactly.... and he's done it while being continually hounded from all sides, from day one, from every source, with false accusations. Anyone else would have buckled under the stress, instead he has excelled.

I'm truly surprised he's accomplished so much over his term.

ltr


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Well thread quickly derailed ...maybe try again next week after the election lol...but I agree this year candidates are just as bad as 2016. I guess the USA wanted to be like Canada and make their election a clown show.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> They control nearly all aspects of government. White House, Justice Department, etc.
> 
> The president and his White House staff are sitting there re-tweeting right wing extremist content. These guys *are the extremists*: they run the country. They already won, and now they're just trying to cling to power.
> 
> It's why the white supremacists, KKK, neo Nazis, and armed militias are so happy with Trump. This is _their guy, _and he's in charge.


You seem to think that slightly right of center is "right wing extremist". 

There is outrage when an progressive pro-woman candidate gets nominated for the Supreme court (Kavanaugh), or a working mom gets nominated for the Supreme Court (Barett).

The real extremists are stuff when they think that AOCs Green New Deal is moderate idea, or that systematic racism is a good idea.

I'm not defending the ills of the US political system, of the rampant disfunction, but when you're presented with 2 bad choices, you choose the lesser evil.
Trump isn't even much of a republican anyway.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The Trump administration and Republicans are very far right in global terms, among democratic western countries.

Present-day Democrats seem about center but Obama & Biden were right of center, so I'm not at all convinced Biden is "left wing".









Opinion | What Happened to America’s Political Center of Gravity? (Published 2019)


The Republican Party is farther right than U.K.I.P. and France’s National Rally, according to an analysis of their platforms.




www.nytimes.com





According to its 2016 manifesto, the Republican Party lies far from the Conservative Party in Britain and the Christian Democratic Union in Germany — mainstream right-leaning parties — and closer to far-right parties like Alternative for Germany, whose platform contains plainly xenophobic, anti-Muslim statements.​


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Would not have voted for Trump in 2016 or 2020.

I would not support a Party or it’s leader that openly and frequently not only promotes voter suppression but admits that the practice of voter suppression is the key to election of many of their candidates.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> The Trump administration and Republicans are very far right in global terms, among democratic western countries.
> 
> Present-day Democrats seem about center but Obama & Biden were right of center, so I'm not at all convinced Biden is "left wing".
> 
> ...


You realize that graph shows the DNC has swung far left right?

Sorry, Racism isn't "far right", it's a whole other axis.
I don't know any Conservatives that are racist. 

When you want to ask "who is racist", which party is advocating for systematic racism... That's your answer.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

To answer the OP's question.

I would have voted Democrat in both US elections, so no change for me.

The two parties are so wide apart on the issues, it is doubtful I could ever vote for a Republican, given their ideology.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

I don't know why there is so much attention paid to the American presidential election, when we have our own corrupt PM destroying Canada.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

A vote for Trump is a vote for liberty & freedom a vote for Biden is for New world order. This election is not about Trump verses Biden or Democrat verses Republican. I will always vote for liberty & freedom & if need be I will die & kill to protect freedom & Liberty.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Mechanic said:


> I don't know why there is so much attention paid to the American presidential election, when we have our own corrupt PM destroying Canada.


A Biden win is an indication to the dictators of the world to keep doing what your doing the people want you to lead & they will follow.
A Trump win gives the signal to the dictators the people do not want you to take away their freedom.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Mechanic said:


> I don't know why there is so much attention paid to the American presidential election, when we have our own corrupt PM destroying Canada.


Because US politics invades Canada


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Eder said:


> Well thread quickly derailed ...maybe try again next week after the election lol...but I agree this year candidates are just as bad as 2016. I guess the USA wanted to be like Canada and make their election a clown show.


 ... elect Hitler and then you won't have a clown show. 

Actually you might, considering the current POSTUS was in the entertainment business, trying to make it real ... can't wait for the finale "YOU'RE FIRED!!!!" That would make a NICE CHANGE FROM 2016 (staying on topic).


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

ian said:


> Would not have voted for Trump in 2016 or 2020.
> 
> I would not support a Party or it’s leader that openly and frequently not only promotes voter suppression but admits that the practice of voter suppression is the key to election of many of their candidates.


Once again the media has convinced you the opposite of the truth. Let Joe Biden explain.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

james4beach said:


> They control nearly all aspects of government. White House, Justice Department, etc.
> 
> The president and his White House staff are sitting there re-tweeting right wing extremist content. These guys *are the extremists*: they run the country. They already won, and now they're just trying to cling to power.
> 
> It's why the white supremacists, KKK, neo Nazis, and armed militias are so happy with Trump. This is _their guy, _and he's in charge.


I see the Speaker of the House, Congress, the FBI, CIA etc etc etc fighting Trump every step of the way with most of them led by holdover Obama and Clinton supporters.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> Because US politics invades Canada


I think that invasion has gone overboard. The Canadian media has done that. I would understand the news networks covering election night, but all CTV, CBC and Global main networks are also?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Once again the media has convinced you the opposite of the truth. Let Joe Biden explain.


How dare you provide a complete, in context video of Biden saying something bad.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

As Trump said, the electoral college is a travesty and the US is not a democracy. 









Donald Trump blasted the electoral college in 2012, before it gave him the presidency


"The electoral college is a disaster for a democracy."




www.businessinsider.com


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Trump may not have agreed with the electoral college but he campaigned accordingly. Hillary didn't campaign wisely and then she complained about something that had been in place for 150 years.

It's not Trump's fault Hillary was an idiot.

Did you have a point?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> As Trump said, the electoral college is a travesty and the US is not a democracy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So?

If you want to win the presidency, you have to win the Electoral college. If you don't lie that, change the rules.

You can say that Hilary would have won if it was just popular vote. However, in that alternate reality they would have run different campains.

Also, I think there is a HUGE problem with the lack of national voting standards in the national election.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> How dare you provide a complete, in context video of Biden saying something bad.


Clearly that is not complete and in context. 









Joe Biden admits to voter fraud? This video was taken out of context







observers.france24.com


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Spudd said:


> Clearly that is not complete and in context.


Prove it.


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## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

*Note to all forum participants:*

To help counteract confusion and disinformation during the coming days, I request that you only post/cite news from major media outlets.

If I see posts containing disinformation, I will moderate them or take actions against users if they are repeatedly doing this. Hostile posts or support for violence will not be permitted.

@MrMatt you have made some off the wall, false assertions in a recent post above. I have moderated your post. If you continue to spread disinformation you will be permanently banned.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Wow...this forum thinks its twitter? lol.


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## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

Eder said:


> Wow...this forum thinks its twitter? lol.


What I describe are standard moderation practices. Actually, moderation at CMF has been very light so far.

You are also welcome to find an unmoderated forum if you prefer that kind of thing.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> So?
> 
> If you want to win the presidency, you have to win the Electoral college. If you don't lie that, change the rules.
> 
> ...


Trump agrees, Hillary should have won. And in the unlikely chance that Trump wins in 2020, it will be despite garnering millions fewer votes.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Apparently Donald Trump, Mark Zuckerberg, Michael Cain, and Julie Andrews found some time to make a show produced by Trey Parker and Matt Stone.


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## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

andrewf said:


> Apparently Donald Trump, Mark Zuckerberg, Michael Cain, and Julie Andrews found some time to make a show produced by Trey Parker and Matt Stone.


So that everyone is clear: this is a satirical video made by the South Park creators, which uses 'deep fake' technology to create fake video of various celebrities. The people named above (other than Parker & Stone) had no involvement with this.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

moderator2 said:


> *Note to all forum participants:*
> 
> To help counteract confusion and disinformation during the coming days, I request that you only post/cite news from major media outlets.
> 
> ...


I honestly couldn't guess what claim is "off the wall". 
Almost every every single claim has been backed, from a reputable source or the original source material.

While other posters lie continously, did James ever back up his "unidentified police" claim? Nope.
I even showed the identification patches IN HIS VIDEO proving him wrong.
But that disinformation stands.

I've been repeatedly accused of being a white supremacist right wing extremists, with no evidence, yet those users keep spouting lies, nonsense and disinformation with impunity.

But that's fine, political discussions are clearly not wanted here.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

moderator2 said:


> *Note to all forum participants:*
> 
> To help counteract confusion and disinformation during the coming days, I request that you only post/cite news from major media outlets.
> 
> ...


You refuse to answer the question. Which media sources do the mods approve of?

Also, how do you determine which posts contain misinformation?


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

And why doesn't James just moderate under his regular alias?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Anyone lacking the judgement and ability to research the validity of sources, probably shouldn't be posting information from unknown and unverfied sources.

There are other forums if people don't like the rules of this forum.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> Anyonre lacking the judgement and ability to research sources, probably shouldn't be posting.
> 
> There are other forums if you don't like the rules.


Does that apply to you too?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Yes, but I don't post from unverified sources, and often check the information on numerous media sources before posting.

One clue to an unverified source is when no other media will allow it on their websites, which is something the purveyors of disinformation complain about.

They complain loudly about "censorship" and talk nonsensical rhetoric about "free speech" rights infringements that don't exist.

As PM Trudeau said the other day......the protection of freedom of expression is not unlimited.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Eder said:


> And why doesn't James just moderate under his regular alias?


I don't know about you but I put him on ignore when he was doing that! And I will not hesitate to do it again but I agree with Mr Matt. I think we have another biased moderator showing up.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> Prove it.


Did you see the link I included in my post that had the full interview video embedded within it?


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