# Women in the workplace



## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

I've been retired for over 14 years from a job with one of Canada's 3 largest insurance companies, and my oldest friend is also retired from a career in banking with one of the big six banks. I worked for 35 years at the same company and he put in 37 years. In looking back on my experience at work, and in discussions with him, with our 72 combined years of working in large corporations, we have come to the conclusion that women are a hugely beneficial influence in the workplace. 
I was complaining to him how my attitude towards my job was spoiled by having to report to one rude obnoxious arrogant individual, and he had similar experiences, all with male supervisors. He told me that finally his bank was shamed into promoting women into middle management positions, and he ended his career reporting to a female manager. He said that his attitude changed completely and he enjoyed the remaining years with the company. I never directly reported to a female supervisor, but I did work with women over the years in our department and on other projects, and I can say that I enjoyed working with women more than men. Whenever men are involved working together it always seems to degenerate into a testosterone fueled dick measuring contest. The “I know more than you so I win!” scenario always seems to play out. It was especially bad in an IT environment because the technology changes at such a fast pace. Anyway, I’m so glad to be out of that rat race. 
By the way, I'm completely against any form of quota based hiring or rewards system either based on gender or skin colour, although I do consider myself a feminist in that I believe women should be given equal opportunities and paid fairly.
I'm interested in hearing other's experiences.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There were an equal number of men and women at my workplace of 600 people.

Women added a lot to the workplace in a lot of different and unique ways. They made the working experience far more pleasant than it would have been with all males.

As for supervisors, both women and men can be dicks in middle management. It often depends on how upper management implements their benchmark metrics.

In almost all companies, management and employees are put into an adversarial position, and gender has little impact on that.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

One should not stereotype or generalize about any group, including women. I have run into some aggressive management type women over the years who intimidate everyone, including other women.

I continue to judge managers and everyone else on a case-by-case basis.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

I've worked in majority male and majority female workplaces.
I've also had male and female roomates throughout school

I think there is more overlap than generalizations, and sex/gender is irrelevant to most job tasks.

If there was anything I realized is that some women really don't like dealing with the cattyness in some female dominated environments.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

For the most part, a good colleague or supervisor is good no matter what their gender is. There might be some subtle differences but they are pleasant people to work with.

OTOH, a jerk is a jerk. Male jerks are more directly confrontational and loud and usually overreact to immediate events. Female jerks (at least the ones I have worked with) are more stealthy and indirect, but tend to gradually gnaw at your foundation. They could resort to elaborate slander themes, gossip, derision, etc. Neither type is good for workplace morale.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Women cost the pension funds more money since they live longer.

Years ago when women had more babies then today having to take time off work would have cost companies a fortune if they had a lot of women working for them.

From my experience when I was in the work force. Women would take more time off work then men for going to watch their kids take part in various activities with no regard if the company was able to run productively since the kids came first. The men the job came first during working hours the kids came second which was the complete opposite.

Some jobs women are better @ other jobs men are better @ 

Men & women are different political correctness often causes blindness to the truth.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

lonewolf :) said:


> Women cost the pension funds more money since they live longer.
> 
> Years ago when women had more babies then today having to take time off work would have cost companies a fortune if they had a lot of women working for them.
> 
> ...


Men and women might on average/extents perform certain jobs better or worse.

But I've discovered a disproportionate number of exceptional women working in male dominated fields.
I think that's because the ones that would have been average, typically self select out into another field.


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## Retail Investor (Jun 29, 2019)

A great mixture of both men and women creates the best working environment IMO. Having too many men compared to women can sometimes result in too much "locker room talk".


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

For what it's worth, I was hired at my current employer by a woman manager. She was probably the best manager I had out of the 7 I've had. I work in a male dominated field. Front-line workers are only ~5% female (a function of the physical demands/atmosphere). Management/administrative functions are closer to balance, requiring various mixes of engineering, business management, finance, IT and analytics. My department tends to hire people with engineering and adjacent backgrounds, which makes it harder to find qualified female candidates. As I hire people, I find myself putting my thumb on the scale in favour of female candidates (we would hire women in a toss-up). I'm not sure how I feel about that.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

According to 2016 a study by World bank 87% of teachers in North America were women. Women complain about not making as much as men. 

With so many women teachers getting benefits such as months of paid holidays, high number of sick days, working 9am - 3pm, paid stat holidays. 93% of women are nurses. 

Men on the other hand are not as smart as women & do not seam to go for the government jobs with the high pay & benefits that are paid regardless of how well you perform. On average women based on performance probably get paid more then men.

The focus on women being under paid is all smoke in mirrors for the real problem of the tax payers paying a fortune to teachers & other government jobs regardless of performance.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

lonewolf :) said:


> According to 2016 a study by World bank 87% of teachers in North America were women. Women complain about not making as much as men.
> 
> With so many women teachers getting benefits such as months of paid holidays, high number of sick days, working 9am - 3pm, paid stat holidays. 93% of women are nurses.
> 
> ...


The US isn't Canada.
US Teachers (and Law enforcement) make relatively poor wages compared to Canada.

Nursing is a highly educated well paid but kinda often crappy job. 
I actually think they're underpaid

People who complain about the gender wage gap simply can't do math.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

pwm said:


> I've been retired for over 14 years from a job with one of Canada's 3 largest insurance companies, and my oldest friend is also retired from a career in banking with one of the big six banks. I worked for 35 years at the same company and he put in 37 years. In looking back on my experience at work, and in discussions with him, with our 72 combined years of working in large corporations, we have come to the conclusion that women are a hugely beneficial influence in the workplace.
> I was complaining to him how my attitude towards my job was spoiled by having to report to one rude obnoxious arrogant individual, and he had similar experiences, all with male supervisors. He told me that finally his bank was shamed into promoting women into middle management positions, and he ended his career reporting to a female manager. He said that his attitude changed completely and he enjoyed the remaining years with the company. I never directly reported to a female supervisor, but I did work with women over the years in our department and on other projects, and I can say that I enjoyed working with women more than men. Whenever men are involved working together it always seems to degenerate into a testosterone fueled dick measuring contest. The “I know more than you so I win!” scenario always seems to play out. It was especially bad in an IT environment because the technology changes at such a fast pace. Anyway, I’m so glad to be out of that rat race.
> By the way, I'm completely against any form of quota based hiring or rewards system either based on gender or skin colour, although I do consider myself a feminist in that I believe women should be given equal opportunities and paid fairly.
> I'm interested in hearing other's experiences.


Funny how people see things differently. I couldn't care less about an individual manager regardless of gender. Either they worked with me, got out of my way or got run over. The competitive environment you describe is of course hell for some people who cannot or will not compete. It is a place to rise to the top for those who do.

I recall being frustrated once while working on a large project (it was common for a sales cycle from a customer's initial intent to do something, through to placing an order, to take as much as a year or more) which would represent as much as a third of my entire year's work. The customer wanted a product that did not yet exist and my 'employer's' answer was basically, 'we can't do that'. My response was 'we will do that by the time we have to deliver it.'

In my frustration one day, I made a comment out loud to a fellow salesperson just as a Vice President of the company was walking past. My comment was, 'I'm gonna put a big poster up on that wall that reads, think small and conform.' The VP gave me a dirty look but said nothing. Around 18 months later, I had that VP's job. Tell me 'it can't be done' and you get run over.

The idea of working for 35 or so years with one company and still reporting to anyone boggles my mind. To be there after 35 years, I would have to expect to be the CEO by that time. I don't mean that in any insulting way, I just think it indicates a difference in how people see what they do. I never 'worked for' anyone in my life, I always knew I was working for me and I was my own boss. If I had allowed a 'manager' to manage me, that would have been a failure on my part as far as I was concerned.

I couldn't care less about a manager or their gender. All I ever expected from them on my way up, was to keep crap out of my way and let me do what I was being paid to do, make the sale. When I became a manager myself, I used to tell 'my' salespeople, do whatever you want, work whatever hours you want, make a deal on a golf course on a Wednesday afternoon, I don't care as long as you don't do anything illegal or immoral. All I want to see is the sales number you produce. 

So I guess you could say that if I were your manager pwm, then yes, all I would have been interested in was how long was your dick. Meaning how high was your productivity and yes, if it were too low, you would have been history. That of course never bodes well for the average or below average. It rewards who merits reward, only.

The view for a 'high flyer' is different than the view of a non-high flyer don't you think. You have thoughts about good and bad managers, I have no thoughts about them other than stay out of my way. None of them had anything to do with my career path, that was all down to me alone.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> The idea of working for 35 or so years with one company and still reporting to anyone boggles my mind. To be there after 35 years, I would have to expect to be the CEO by that time. I don't mean that in any insulting way, I just think it indicates a difference in how people see what they do. I never 'worked for' anyone in my life, I always knew I was working for me and I was my own boss. If I had allowed a 'manager' to manage me, that would have been a failure on my part as far as I was concerned.


Not everyone wants to move into upper management, I declined years ago and stayed in my position because I enjoy it. Also, 3 CEO's later and I'm still here lol. 

As far as women, men, etc ... don't matter to me. Some people are good to work with, others not so much.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Not everyone wants to move into upper management, I declined years ago and stayed in my position because I enjoy it. Also, 3 CEO's later and I'm still here lol.
> 
> As far as women, men, etc ... don't matter to me. Some people are good to work with, others not so much.


I agree not everyone wants to move up in a company. I recall many years ago telling a guy, 'be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.' Some years later I ran into him again and he reminded me of what I had said to him. He had been promoted and did find it was not to his liking.

It all depends on how you view 'work' cainvest. For me it was a means to an end, early retirement. That meant that for me, it was all about earning as much as possible in as little time as possible. I was not interested in staying in a job because I 'enjoyed' it. While I did enjoy what I did (sales), I also knew what the real goal was and that meant moving up the ladder as quickly as possible.

One of those 3 CEOs you are still there after cainvest could be someone like me who came, made their FU money and left. Meanwhile you are still working and still don't have your FU money.

While I enjoyed what I did to make money, I enjoy not having to work at all, far more.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> One of those 3 CEOs you are still there after cainvest could be someone like me who came, made their FU money and left. Meanwhile you are still working and still don't have your FU money.
> 
> While I enjoyed what I did to make money, I enjoy not having to work at all, far more.


Only one of the three CEOs (2 men, 1 women) had FU money but he did long before he took the job. I crossed FU money line a while back but still enjoy working.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Only one of the three CEOs (2 men, 1 women) had FU money but he did long before he took the job. I crossed FU money line a while back but still enjoy working.


If you have your FU money and are still working, I suggest you seek professional counselling. I have to say I never believe people who try to tell me that.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> If you have your FU money and are still working, I suggest you seek professional counselling. I have to say I never believe people who try to tell me that.


lol, I know you don't get it and that's alright ...
Maybe this will work for your mindset, it's like getting paid for going hiking in the Swiss Alps ... would you quit that job?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I had a great employer. Worked 10/12 hour days. Lots of travel. Great people to work with. Lucrative, especially in my last 10 years, with first rate benefits for my family.

But am I glad I left at 59, eight years ago. Do I miss those quarterly calls for revenue, profit, headcount reductions etc. etc.? Or would I rather be retired. Spending time with my spouse, traveling when and where we want with zero time or financial constraints? No early or late calls to bridge the time zones, no early or late flights, etc. etc. Do I miss those? No. 

Did I leave money on the table as some might suggest. Yes...but that is better than leaving time on the table as a number of my since deceased colleagues have done. It is after all, only money.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> lol, I know you don't get it and that's alright ...
> Maybe this will work for your mindset, it's like getting paid for going hiking in the Swiss Alps ... would you quit that job?


Actually cainvest the answer is yes I would and did quit that job. 

Suppose someone loves painting pictures. A friend sees a picture they have painted of their dog or their house or whatever and says to them, 'hey, that's really good, will you paint me a picture of my dog?' So they paint it for them. Then someone else sees that and asks to have a painting done, then someone else and someone else. At some point, it goes from being something you do because you enjoy it, to being WORK. I have in fact gone through that kind of scenario several times.

Hiking in the Alps is indeed something I really like doing and never tire of. But I have also at one point been paid to guide trips (as a sideline so to speak) and did indeed quit after it was no longer fun. It's the same as the bar I owned in Greece, it was fun the first year, OK the second year and just work the third year. I sold out to my business partner. It was the same when I got involved in making menus for restaurants in Greece. A fun and creative thing to do for a while and then just work. The same when I designed and sold decks in the UK. Fun to do until it no longer was.

The thing is that all are fun when you do them just for your own enjoyment but once you start getting paid to do them, they INVARIABLY involve other people and as soon as you involve other people in what you do, they rapidly become far less fun and far more like WORK. When I hike with my wife, we do what we want but even involving just that one other beloved person means that sometimes I have to do what she wants and not just what I want. When I guided hiking trips in various places for pay, I had to deal with people who would say, 'the pace is too fast' while at the same time someone else was saying, 'the pace is too slow' for example. The ONLY time you can truly just do what you want is when you are on your own.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> I had a great employer. Worked 10/12 hour days. Lots of travel. Great people to work with. Lucrative, especially in my last 10 years, with first rate benefits for my family.
> 
> But am I glad I left at 59, eight years ago. Do I miss those quarterly calls for revenue, profit, headcount reductions etc. etc.? Or would I rather be retired. Spending time with my spouse, traveling when and where we want with zero time or financial constraints? No early or late calls to bridge the time zones, no early or late flights, etc. etc. Do I miss those? No.
> 
> Did I leave money on the table as some might suggest. Yes...but that is better than leaving time on the table as a number of my since deceased colleagues have done. It is after all, only money.


The two most common reasons I have observed for people not retiring early when they could have ian are 'position power' and 'more'. For some people, it is no longer the money that holds them but their 'position' and what it means to them. No longer being able to maintain an elite Frequent Flyer status for example and being given preferential treatment when travelling is a simple example. Recognition in a given circle as being 'someone'.

For others it is an inability to define their number that they will be satisfied with. I knew someone who kept insisting he intended to retire, he just needed one more year to build up his capital a bit 'more'. He died in harness as you say some you knew did.

Time is one thing you cannot bank. Once it is gone, it is gone forever. I have tried to explain to some people how what you can do in 1 year before age 60 may take you several years to do after that age. The older you get, the higher the difference. What my wife and I did in the years between her retiring (I already was) at age 52 and her reaching age 62, would I think now take us at least twice as long to do if we even could still do them all.

But at the same time, I have met people who really have very little in terms of interests outside of their work and their families. They have never developed any interests and can't see that they are missing out on anything by spending their time working. Ignorance is bliss as they say.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Interesting topic. My favorite boss was a woman. that's cause she was level headed, treated people with respect, and had clear achievable goals. Some men were good as well. I don't think that women are inherently better at it. the worst workplace terrorist in my experience was a woman, an extreme whiner, complainer and ranter. Very viscous. 

On another aspect, I recall seeing a documentary (fifth Estate?) on women working for the fire department. some women were complaining about harassment. However, one female fire fighter who was interviewed gave a clue as to what it is about: the smallest weakest female fire fighter got the worst of it. She implied it isn't about them being female its about being too weak to do the job.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Hiking in the Alps is indeed something I really like doing and never tire of. But I have also at one point been paid to guide trips (as a sideline so to speak) and did indeed quit after it was no longer fun.


I didn't say anything about being a guide, just hiking!


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

I work with 98% women. I keep getting "encouraged" to hire more men by management (female) and our female staff. Historically the women have been pretty hard on each other at times and for some reason they tended to get along better with male co-workers.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Synergy said:


> I work with 98% women. I keep getting "encouraged" to hire more men by management (female) and our female staff. Historically the women have been pretty hard on each other at times and for some reason they tended to get along better with male co-workers.


Wow, what field of work is that?

I think having a good mix of men & women helps workplace culture. So does having a mix of younger and older workers.


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## Foxx88 (Aug 1, 2019)

No kidding ... and there are also some aggressive management type men out there. It's not about women or men, it's about people.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> I didn't say anything about being a guide, just hiking!


Now you are just being unrealistic cainvest. Tell me just how you would get paid to hike without having to provide something in return for being paid. I once got paid to stay in hostels but in return, I had to write reviews on them for the website that was paying me. There is always a quid pro quo when you are paid cainvest. Or can you think of why someone would pay me to hike without expecting anything in return? I'm all ears on that one.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Foxx88 said:


> No kidding ... and there are also some aggressive management type men out there. It's not about women or men, it's about people.


Got it in one Foxx88. It is ALWAYS about people. All work involves other people. I laugh when someone says, 'it's just business, it's not personal'. There is no such thing, all business is personal, it affects you personally. 

Questions about women in the workplace vs. men are just nonsense. But they provide a topic for people to post about and like most threads in a forum, that's all that is required really. It's a form of entertainment where we get to participate. Why else post here at all?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

It has just occurred to me that pwm and this thread should be reported to the mods as being sexist and discriminatory, against MEN. In the OP, pwm is clearly saying women are better to work with. How about if I were to say women are worse to work with than men. That reverse view would quite likely be jumped on as sexist would it not? We aren't allowed to 'pick on' women but it's OK to pick on men?

It's interesting how pc views only apply to some groups and not to others. LOL


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> It has just occurred to me that pwm and this thread should be reported to the mods as being sexist and discriminatory, against MEN. In the OP, pwm is clearly saying women are better to work with. How about if I were to say women are worse to work with than men. That reverse view would quite likely be jumped on as sexist would it not? We aren't allowed to 'pick on' women but it's OK to pick on men?
> 
> It's interesting how pc views only apply to some groups and not to others. LOL


^
I have some sympathy for that view, but I don't support reporting to the mods. Freedom of expression is important too, and suppressing expression can be counter productive to dialogue. 

Misandry has been politically correct for some decades now. The feminists successfully played the victim thereby achieving the perception of moral superiority. Hence misandry was/is perceived to be justified. I never really understood the either/or, us vs them, gender war mentality that feminists fostered. The best I could determine is the feminists adopted a Marxist class warfare framework which never really fit well.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Synergy said:
> 
> 
> > I work with 98% women. I keep getting "encouraged" to hire more men by management (female) and our female staff. Historically the women have been pretty hard on each other at times and for some reason they tended to get along better with male co-workers.
> ...


Within the Financial Services Sector.

I completely agree with having a diverse workplace. I would include having a mix of individuals with different interests, etc.

I helped out with recruitment for a professional college back in the day. Having institutional diversity was very important for a variety of reasons.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Now you are just being unrealistic cainvest. Tell me just how you would get paid to hike without having to provide something in return for being paid. I once got paid to stay in hostels but in return, I had to write reviews on them for the website that was paying me. There is always a quid pro quo when you are paid cainvest. Or can you think of why someone would pay me to hike without expecting anything in return? I'm all ears on that one.


Just trying to get a point across, doing something you like and getting paid for it without all the negatives you seem to come up with.
Of course you'll say jobs like this don't exist.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Just trying to get a point across, doing something you like and getting paid for it without all the negatives you seem to come up with.
> Of course you'll say jobs like this don't exist.


I don't have a problem with anyone trying to get a point across cainvest but the point should be practical/realistic don't you think? I won't say jobs like this don't exist but I will say tell me what jobs, point out the people who are examples of what you are suggesting.

As I have said, I have had jobs that I liked, right up until I no longer liked them enough to continue with them. I have never had a job that I would rather continue with than go and do something else with my time even if it was just for a change. 

If someone says to me they 'love their job and will never stop' etc. I call BS.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> If someone says to me they 'love their job and will never stop' etc. I call BS.


That might be true ... the "will never stop" part. I think in the person's current time frame they likely believe that.

I've come across a few people that love their jobs, a few of those jobs I'd like to do myself! Say I retire tomorrow and spend time on one of my hobbies ... and few weeks go by and someone says to me "hey, pass along your ideas and I'll pay you for them!". Now either way I'm going to continue with my hobby ... so do I take, say 30 minutes a week, explaining to him (which I would enjoy) what I did to make money or just say no?

BTW, say your job was to hike trails in the alps and write a report on the trail conditions on CMF once a week ... there, your perfect dream job!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> That might be true ... the "will never stop" part. I think in the person's current time frame they likely believe that.
> 
> I've come across a few people that love their jobs, a few of those jobs I'd like to do myself! Say I retire tomorrow and spend time on one of my hobbies ... and few weeks go by and someone says to me "hey, pass along your ideas and I'll pay you for them!". Now either way I'm going to continue with my hobby ... so do I take, say 30 minutes a week, explaining to him (which I would enjoy) what I did to make money or just say no?
> 
> BTW, say your job was to hike trails in the alps and write a report on the trail conditions on CMF once a week ... there, your perfect dream job!


There are plenty of things someone could think of that sound good 'if you say it fast enough' as the saying goes. Try thinking through whatever idea you have in practical terms as to what is likely to happen.

So I get paid to write trail reports as you suggest. OK, I write say half a dozen and the buyer is happy. There's just one thing, 'can I add a bit more humour into the descriptions' or 'be a bit more serious', or 'shorten or lengthen them to 2000 words each'? I've been paid to write a couple of times cainvest. Once doing reviews of hostels as I mentioned and another time for an update on an island for Lonely Planet guide books. Writing always involves an 'editor' who makes requests/demands of the writer. That's just one issue there are others you can probably anticipate if you think about it in practical terms. What if your successful? The work grows in scope which means more time is required.
What whatever it is you are doing needs to be repeated? Repetition leads to boredom. What if it is time sensitive? There is a deadline by which you must deliver 'it'. The list goes on. Take any idea you have and think through the practical issues that can arise and you will find that it turns into WORK even if it started out as something you really enjoyed doing. That is my first hand experience from having done several such things as I have already mentioned. It always somehow manages to turn into work.

I actually see nothing wrong with starting such things. I have done so obviously but I have also always stopped doing them after a period of time. How long a period of time will vary but at some point when it transitions to work, it's time to stop. The difference between someone doing that and the average person who has to work for a living of course is that someone who has FU money is free to stop whenever they want.

Since I retired I have probably 'fallen into' a dozen things for which I was paid. I enjoyed doing all of them initially otherwise I would not have done them. But as I said, when someone tries to tell me they love their work and never want to stop, I call BS. They just haven't got to the point of it having just become work yet.

There are all kinds of things people can think of as their 'dream job' cainvest but they all turn into work. A good example of such a job many people think of is travel writing. Ah, to get paid to travel, what could be better than that? How many early retirees do you think have dreamed about that in their future. Read this article by a writer who describes some of the realities of the job. https://www.pitchtravelwrite.com/travel-writing-reality-check.html
And here's one that includes bloggers and influencers, both more recent additions to writing. https://www.https://www.pitchtravel...0/travel-writing-blogging-influencer-secrets/


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

I understand your points LTA, things can change that put the work more into the dislike category and will make you want to leave it all behind. Guess it's really an attitude thing, some think a couple of bad trees ruins the forest kind of thing.

And yes, having financial independence (FU money) only makes things better, just knowing you can walk at any time if you so desire.



Longtimeago said:


> Since I retired I have probably 'fallen into' a dozen things for which I was paid. I enjoyed doing all of them initially otherwise I would not have done them. But as I said, when someone tries to tell me they love their work and never want to stop, I call BS. They just haven't got to the point of it having just become work yet.


Well good to hear you accept that people can enjoy work and you have done so yourself. And sure, I'll accept that it may not last forever and there may come a point in time when you want to stop and move on.

Guess we only disagree on how long one can like their work and that they "might" not want to ever stop because they enjoy it.


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