# Ontario budget



## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

Henceforth, my family will use ALL available opportunities to starve the beast that is the Ontario government, including working less.

This government made my 20 year old daughter cry in frustration with their budget today. She is already asking why bother working hard if it's all going to be taken from her, and given to her lazy friends and their pot-smoking parents.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

RCB said:


> Henceforth, my family will use ALL available opportunities to starve the beast that is the Ontario government, including working less.
> 
> This government made my 20 year old daughter cry in frustration with their budget today. She is already asking why bother working hard if it's all going to be taken from her, and given to her lazy friends and their pot-smoking parents.


I already opened Ontario budget thread earlier...with similar sentiment 
mods, could you merge both threads?

btw, my 20 y.o son (3rd year university) was asking same question when Liberal-beasts won Federal election.... after graduation , he's seriously considering moving away from ON/Canada ... and I agree with him


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Such hard-working children you have....

I don't agree with free tuition for children from households earning under $50k. It would already be more than generous enough to do the following:
-offer full financing to students of tuition and perhaps even some living expenses
-finance at a rate of 0% real (ie, the interest equals the rate of CPI)
-make repayments due as a percentage of income earned above a certain threshold. Ie, 20% of income earned above $30k, until the loan is repaid.
-allow some provision for debt forgiveness after 15-20 years if a balance remains

Anything more than that is overly generous. People who attend post-secondary will tend to have higher life-time income. They can afford to pay their way, especially considering the cost of post-secondary is already subsidized significantly.


In terms of the moaning about tax rises... are we just talking about the 4.3 cents per litre in additional gas tax? It works out to $70 bucks a year for me. If your kids are going to quit work and live in your basement over $70 a year, I have to question their work ethic .


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Today I learned:

Ontario tuition fee increases are capped at 3% a year.
The cap expires in 2017.
Universities oppose the renewal of the cap (OBVIOUSLY).
If Liberals choose not to renew the cap, tuition fees will jump.

Today's budget is probably a step towards the uncapped fee increases.

My daughter starts university in September, mom and dad will be paying the full freight, so yeah... I am jumping for joy.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> In terms of the moaning about tax rises... are we just talking about the 4.3 cents per litre in additional gas tax? It works out to $70 bucks a year for me.


 If we retired it would be for us $5 bucks a year + free tuitions for our daughter 

This is how it works 4.3% her, another 3% there and another 4% over there ....and some health tax and so on .... but where those money going?! Hell knows! ... or maybe ***** Wynne knows?!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> My daughter starts university in September, mom and dad will be paying the full freight, so yeah... I am jumping for joy.


 This is what I;m freaking don't get in this province/country ..... when kids are 19 + , why parents still be financially responsible for them?! Not enough we pay the highest taxes, also we need to pay for our kids education, that also they (our kids) would pay the highest taxes?! This is fuc*** ridiculous!


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

andrewf, wevare a blue collar family.

Daughter just shy of 21, began working at 15 at a well known Math program. By 16, she was also working at Wally World. She was an honour student through high school. She was an honour student in an accelerated college program (2 years compressed into one calendar year, or three semesters). She had a full time job, although barely above minimum wage, upon graduating. She lived at home, and saved enough money working two jobs to pay her meager student loans shortly before graduation. She has now found that any admin office job cannot support her, and is planning to return this fall to obtain a BScN. IF she can get student loans.

Daughter, just turned 18. Has worked at the same Timmys since she was 14. Honour student in high school, left the hricks and mortar school to finish her last year through online courses through ILC, so that she could work full time nights at Timmys, to save for university. Graduating now, still honours student, accepted to a university with an entrance scholarship. Plans to continue working through university.

Their father, my husband, works two full days of overtime every week. This because we spent years barely scraping by, and have squat for pensions. This puts us over the Liberals new income amount for any kind of new grants for post-secondary education. That's fine, but at the same time, the Liberals are withdrawing the current 30% tuition grant for ALL students, and also cutting any tax credit for tuition and books. AND the family income cuts any student LOAN amounts drastically. AND we now get to pay for the kids with family incomes below $83,000 to go to school.

Yeah, there's no work ethic issue here. I can't imagine why any of us would be upset.

There is an upside. We carry big debt because I am a landlord to students. Since we are getting screwed so badly, and we have to pay for so many others to go to school, in addition to our own kids, we will increase student rents. Afterall, they have lots of money now, right?


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

gibor said:


> This is what I;m freaking don't get in this province/country ..... when kids are 19 + , why parents still be financially responsible for them?! Not enough we pay the highest taxes, also we need to pay for our kids education, that also they (our kids) would pay the highest taxes?! This is fuc*** ridiculous!


It's your choice. You can choose not to pay.


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## houska (Feb 6, 2010)

gibor said:


> [...] my 20 y.o son (3rd year university) [...] after graduation , he's seriously considering moving away from ON/Canada ... and I agree with him


Not trying to take cheap shots, but maybe some time away would help him clarify what's important to him? I went to grad school and then worked for a few years in the U.S., leaving Canada with a general sense that opportunity was stifled here but not really being able to articulate why. After 11 years away, I moved back, having realized I valued Canada's more tolerant society and social safety net far more than making a bit more net $. There are of course plenty of examples of waste, here, in other countries, and in the private sector too. And I had Canadian friends who also left and the last thing they'd do is come back. But for me, at least, seeing the other side has made be value more some of the tradeoffs we make here, and get less upset when I see some of the dirty underbelly too.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Fearless prediction:

Ontario tuition fees will skyrocket once the current cap expires. Low income families will get the just-announced subsidy, while the rest of us will pay a lot more.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

GoldStone said:


> It's your choice. You can choose not to pay.


No, there is no choice! I should pay in order my kids will get education!

I just feel sorry for our kids who enters universities, as there will be thousands of delinquent "students" who will study (most likely 1 semester) for free...
The fair system would be if all universities have an entry test, if student gets good marks - he/she studies for free, if not - pay for education..



> I went to grad school and then worked for a few years in the U.S., leaving Canada with a general sense that opportunity was stifled here but not really being able to articulate why. After 11 years away, I moved back, having realized I valued Canada's more tolerant society and social safety net far more than making a bit more net $


You are comparing Canda to US. There are many countries where " more tolerant society and social safety net " are better than in Canada



> Ontario tuition fees will skyrocket once the current cap expires. Low income families will get the just-announced subsidy, while the rest of us will pay a lot more.


 another reason to retire earlier and have low income until your kids in University  or make your kids to learn German where there is free universities for everyone


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

I have to laugh at Gibor who always always always complains about taxes, but doesn't want to support his own kids - he wants other taxpayers to support them. I always think that if he is so unhappy here, he should move somewhere else, but I think it's pretty clear he wouldn't be happy anywhere. Russia and Israel managed to get him to move on - what should we be doing to encourage him to deprive us of the pleasure ;-) of his company?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

When people with orientation like yours become vast majority :stupid:

P.S. Canada likes families like ours, as we pay in taxes 3-4 times more than average Canadian earns


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmmm...maybe I should raise student rent, but discount back to the norm for those students not eligible for the new, "taxpayers pay the whole shot for you" program. In solidarity with other hard-working parents and kids.

I am also telling my kids to get the hell out of this province upon graduating.


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

gibor said:


> When people with orientation like yours become vast majority :stupid:
> 
> P.S. Canada likes families like ours, as we pay in taxes 3-4 times more than average Canadian earns


Maybe some day you'll figure out that you are lucky to live in one of the best places in the world, and that a lot of people in other countries would give anything thing to have the opportunity you've been given. That's why there's so much immigration to Canada from Russia, and almost none in the other direction.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

RCB said:


> Hmmm...maybe I should raise student rent, but discount back to the norm for those students not eligible for the new, "taxpayers pay the whole shot for you" program. In solidarity with other hard-working parents and kids.
> 
> I am also telling my kids to get the hell out of this province upon graduating.


Excellent idea! Especially who knows what kinds of repaier you'll need to do after delinquent students


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## houska (Feb 6, 2010)

RCB said:


> Daughter just shy of 21, began working at 15 at a well known Math program. By 16, she was also working at Wally World. She was an honour student through high school. She was an honour student in an accelerated college program (2 years compressed into one calendar year, or three semesters). She had a full time job, although barely above minimum wage, upon graduating. She lived at home, and saved enough money working two jobs to pay her meager student loans shortly before graduation. She has now found that any admin office job cannot support her, and is planning to return this fall to obtain a BScN. IF she can get student loans.
> 
> Daughter, just turned 18. Has worked at the same Timmys since she was 14. Honour student in high school, left the hricks and mortar school to finish her last year through online courses through ILC, so that she could work full time nights at Timmys, to save for university. Graduating now, still honours student, accepted to a university with an entrance scholarship. Plans to continue working through university.


RCB, seems you've raised good kids, with a great work ethic to work. Congrats. And I recognize that the withdrawal of tuition grants and credits will hurt you and them.

But as a former university lecturer (now I run my own business), your description above is exactly why I think that *some* sort of answer like essentially free tuition for those who need it is a good idea. While individual situations vary, by and large I'd love to see 14 and 16 year olds reading books, playing sports or music or theatre, arguing politics with their friends, rather than working at Timmys . And college/university students studying and reflecting, as well as dating, socializing, etc. rather than rushing to multiple part-time jobs, squeezing in the required readings and the assigned homework in between. 

When I stopped teaching, I felt I was encountering 2 classes of students: some who had someone else foot the bill, and far too often didn't much care about benefiting from the education they were getting. And others, who sacrificed a lot, themselves and their families, so they could afford to be there -- and as a result were too tired, stressed, etc to truly benefit. I'm keen for us to try any way to get past this problem -- even if it means as a Province we need to invest additional real $$ in those students, $$ which may or may not come back as taxes on their higher future earnings, hard to tell.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

RCB, as a landlord, I am sure you know you can charge what the market will bear in rent. Unless you are underpricing your property, you can't just raise rents and keep it occupied.

gibor, I think the point is that you are constantly moaning about how terrible Canada and Ontario is as a place to live. You have multiple passports--why do you live here when you can escape to the greener pastures in Israel or Russia?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> That's why there's so much immigration to Canada from Russia, and almost none in the other direction.


 Majority (about 90%) of Russian immigrant you see in Canada, not from Russia, but from Israel  , but this is completely different story.... and this was in the past, who know ... maybe in 5-10 years immigration from Canada will be huge


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

Okay, so the deficit is $5.7B, but the DEBT will grow by $12B. How much debt do you think the government is adding when the deficit is advertised as $5.7B a year?

Especially when the $5.7B includes revenue from selling infrastructure (i.e. Hydro One) but excludes spending on some "infrastructure", whatever that is, good luck if you can find it.


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

Gibor, when you just make stuff up like that, no-one believes you or your crazy-*** predictions.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> your crazy-***


 it's more about you :biggrin:


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

andrewf said:


> gibor, I think the point is that you are constantly moaning about how terrible Canada and Ontario is as a place to live. You have multiple passports--why do you live here when you can escape to the greener pastures in Israel or Russia?


I don't think gibor would last too long in Russia: we know what happens to people who criticize the government there.


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

houska, I do see your point regarding stressed, over-worked students. There are a group of us families, however, that seem to be screwed by government policy no matter which way we turn. For years we just scraped by, struggling our way up the income ladder. Now that we are finally getting somewhere, through sacrifice and over-work, starting to save for retirement (at 50), the government does everything it can to shove our family right back down to the bottom again. As of next year, we won't even be able to get a tuition credit on income tax, after struggling to save a pittance to help our kids through school.

I will now be adding some new life instruction for my kids. Do absolutely EVERYTHING legal that you can to not pay tax, any kind of tax.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Davis said:


> I don't think gibor would last too long in Russia: we know what happens to people who criticize the government there.


Looks like you still live in "cold war" era or just brainwashed by local propaganda.... Now people who criticize the government are treated exactly the same like in Canada..


P.S> So, if andrew and Davis are happy with *****-Wynne budget -> be happy! many peoples are unhappy!


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

andrewf said:


> RCB, as a landlord, I am sure you know you can charge what the market will bear in rent. Unless you are underpricing your property, you can't just raise rents and keep it occupied.


This is true, but for a certain subset of students, what the market can bear is about to grow by leaps and bounds. I provide good quality homes for these kids, without raking them over the coals. Where I have previously kept rents in the fair and decent range, where I can still make a good income, I will now think hard about raising them closer to others who aren't quite so conscientious and decent. I'm going to need to just to help my own kids more.


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

gibor said:


> Looks like you still live in "cold war" era or just brainwashed by local propaganda.... Now people who criticize the government are treated exactly the same like in Canada..


No, I'm referring to credible sources like The Economist, which reported in 2013, "The first year of Vladimir Putin’s third presidential term has also been eventful: many protesters arrested, Alexei Navalny, an opposition leader, facing prison, and Memorial, a human-rights group founded by Sakharov, under assault with other NGOs."

And Amnesty International says: "Since Vladimir Putin came to power in 1999 there has been an increased crackdown on freedoms of expression, assembly and association in Russia. Putin’s 2012 landslide victory sparked even an even greater repression of rights following the large protests after his re-election."

This is not Cold War stuff, but current events.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

There are 2 evil forces @ work one the voters that want the welfare state & corporations that want the welfare state. It is the bankers that are winning right now with interest on the big deficits. The system is set up so we are slaves to the bankers who want us in debt. Get rid of the bankers ( someday they might be hung in the streets again) money should be borrowed from the tax payers interest free if needed. Right now there is a conflict of interest when the government is in bed with the banks so we spend money to go deeper in debt. What is next eliminate cash then go negative interest rates banker & government not good.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The question should be if bricks and mortar universities are still the best solution for post secondary education in today's technological world.

Quality educations are offered online by world class universities already, but often it is offered only as a non credit course. 

There isn't much difference between being sitting in a university ante-room watching a lecture on a television screen, than watching the same lecture on a computer screen at home.

I think public funds would be better spent increasing access to a broader network of free online post secondary education, than trying to figure out which of the 25% of Canadians who attend university should be subsidized.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

On the matter of increased taxes, the choice has always been to raise revenues or cut spending.

The resistance to spending cuts is much stronger than it is to taxes being raised.

Raise taxes and a few lobby groups and think tanks publish some articles in the media. Cut spending and the picket signs get dusted off and come out. Tales of woe fill the media from those most affected by the program cuts.

Everyone enjoys their slice of the pie...........and want the pie to be taken away from someone else.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

sags said:


> The question should be if bricks and mortar universities are still the best solution for post secondary education in today's technological world.
> 
> Quality educations are offered online by world class universities already, but often it is offered only as a non credit course.
> 
> ...


I can't believe it. Canadian universities are heavily unionized. Are you arguing that we should eliminate well paying unionized jobs?

WOW

Someone hacked sags' account.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Don't worry Gibor..........Be happy.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> And Amnesty International says:


 Extremely credible organization :stupid:



> Criticism of Amnesty International (AI) includes claims of selection bias, ideological/foreign policy bias against either non-Western countries, or Western-supported countries and AI's policies relating to organisational continuity


 Wikipedia



> AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL: FAILED METHODOLOGY, CORRUPTION, AND ANTI-ISRAEL BIAS


http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/...d_methodology_corruption_and_anti_israel_bias

P.S. Maybe you will give as example of "cruel" Putin regime - "***** Riot"?!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pussy_Riot


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

And The Economist? Are you going to dismiss that as "Western propaganda against the Glorious Leader of the Russian people"? Would you really want to believe the Russian government over independent news sources?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

gibor said:


> Looks like you still live in "cold war" era or just brainwashed by local propaganda.... Now people who criticize the government are treated exactly the same like in Canada..


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Boris_Nemtsov
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko


Really? Really?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

RCB said:


> andrewf, we are a blue collar family.
> 
> Daughter just shy of 21, began working at 15 at a well known Math program ...
> Daughter, just turned 18. Has worked at the same Timmys since she was 14 ...
> ...


Frustrating ... and there definitely needs to be improvements.

On the other hand, if you/she are frustrated by funding other's educations, perhaps you could show your sympathy by sending me a cheque to help reimburse me?

As a single person, I'm pretty sure that some of the last several decades of education taxes paid have been used for their benefit. 


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

gibor said:


> ... You are comparing Canda to US. There are many countries where " more tolerant society and social safety net " are better than in Canada


That may be true ... but I believe of those who has left have chosen the closest, most similar county ... the US.

Some have written of their experiences where some moved back as they discovered that tax rates are the full situation, some wrote that the opportunities mean they won't move back but the standard of living was the same, some wrote that as soon as they were going to have children they were moving back and some wrote that they were never moving back as it was so much better.


As for the other countries, any thoughts on why so many choose the US instead of the better choices?
Is it lack of advertising by those countries?


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

RCB said:


> ... I am also telling my kids to get the hell out of this province upon graduating.


Gibor says there are many countries where "more tolerant society and social safety net " are better than in Canada.

I've asked him but maybe you could shed some light on where these countries are on the list for the kids.
Or perhaps when you'd consider them as well?


I am not trying to push you one way or the other ... just wondering what the criteria is and what would be the tipping point.


Cheers


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

To get this back on track a little. How does this budget affect your RESP strategy? My wife and I earn 70k a year (total) and have been socking money away each and every month for our two kids, aged 8 and 6, in RESP accounts.

Would I be better served to stop the RESP route and just start saving in my name in a mutual fund and hand over the cash? 

Are there any places to find details? Is this budget a disincentive to save for post secondary? Seems to be, but I can't find any answers.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

gibor said:


> Majority (about 90%) of Russian immigrant you see in Canada, not from Russia, but from Israel  ...


Interesting ... I had no idea that Grand father, grand mother, three great aunts and a bunch of their friends were now in such a minority.
Then again, I haven't been tracking it.




gibor said:


> ... maybe in 5-10 years immigration from Canada will be huge


Maybe ... but then again it was interesting to run into the doctor who left Canada for the green pastures of the US predicted he'd never be back butwas in less than two years. I am not sure if he considered anywhere other than the US.

I also have a relative who was extremely happy with what he was able to get in Chicago, where I cautioned him to check the total costs instead of looking at a few aspects. He was back in Canada in less than a year.


Time will tell.


Cheers


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

crazyjackcsa said:


> To get this back on track a little. How does this budget affect your RESP strategy? My wife and I earn 70k a year (total) and have been socking money away each and every month for our two kids, aged 8 and 6, in RESP accounts.
> 
> Would I be better served to stop the RESP route and just start saving in my name in a mutual fund and hand over the cash?
> 
> Are there any places to find details? Is this budget a disincentive to save for post secondary? Seems to be, but I can't find any answers.


What part of the budget is making you go down this line of thinking? I haven't had a chance to look at the budget in detail yet but I'm not aware of any RESP specific impacts.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

RCB said:


> ... I will now be adding some new life instruction for my kids. Do absolutely EVERYTHING legal that you can to not pay tax, any kind of tax.


Interesting ... this was one of my parent's messages, despite far less gov't taxes (i.e. no capital gains tax until 1972, no CPP).


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

sags said:


> The question should be if bricks and mortar universities are still the best solution for post secondary education in today's technological world.
> 
> Quality educations are offered online by world class universities already, but often it is offered only as a non credit course.


Maybe this is how broadly or doing an entire degree?

I can recall taking some for credit university courses over cable TV in the mid-80's but that might have been an exception. Most of my classmates thought I was crazy.


Cheers


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

sags said:


> Don't worry Gibor..........Be happy.


 Watch out below last time I herd the words don't worry be happy was in a song that became a hit before the 1987 crash.


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

gibor said:


> Majority (about 90%) of Russian immigrant you see in Canada, not from Russia, but from Israel  , but this is completely different story.... and this was in the past, who know ... maybe in 5-10 years immigration from Canada will be huge


I hate to ruin good Internet misinformation, but a simple check of the immigration numbers shows that both countries have provided around 2000-4000 immigrants per year over the last couple of decades, with Russia often 500-1000 above Israel. "90%" is obviously bogus; even if all Israeli migrants were somehow Russian pass-throughs you couldn't get to 50-50.


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

This is the "gibor research method": make something up, and then let someone else do the research to prove how wrong you are. 

I think we can conclude form this that anything gibor writes is wrong. You just have to Google it to find out what is right.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

0xCC said:


> What part of the budget is making you go down this line of thinking? I haven't had a chance to look at the budget in detail yet but I'm not aware of any RESP specific impacts.


Simple. The way byzantine rules were set up under the old system, if you weren't poor enough, you couldn't get any help. IE. "Bought a beater car because living at home was way cheaper? Too bad! If you're wealthy enough to own a car, you don't need the help!"

So potentially a young couple (we'll call them couple A) making 49k a year could scrimp, save, and sacrifice to build an RESP for their child. When it comes time for Jr. to go to school, Jr. has say $25,000 in that RESP. Then a nice, well meaning government person could tell them they don't qualify for the grant for college, because their parents sacrificed all those years and the RESP value precludes them from getting the grant. "You don't need the money! you already have enough saved up!" Doing the responsible thing was actually a detriment.

Couple B makes 49k a year. Doesn't do a damn thing, not bad people say, they just didn't scrimp and sacrifice. Jr. Gets a free ride for 3 years of college tuition.

Couple C makes 49k a year and slaps the same amount of cash as couple A not into an RESP but into a mutual fund. As Jr. goes off to school, they just hand over the cash. Jr. still gets the free ride.

I have a decade before my first Jr. goes off to school, so I need to know: Did RESPs just get deincentivized?


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I never got a chance to listen to the budget. 

Were there any tax credits for a white, middle class male between 40 and 55, with no kids, dual income, and in pretty good health? Just wondering.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> That may be true ... but I believe of those who has left have chosen the closest, most similar county ... the US.
> 
> Some have written of their experiences where some moved back as they discovered that tax rates are the full situation, some wrote that the opportunities mean they won't move back but the standard of living was the same, some wrote that as soon as they were going to have children they were moving back and some wrote that they were never moving back as it was so much better.
> 
> ...


Actually i know more families that moved to Australia and EU than to US. Also you're talking about past... nobody knows what will be in the future 
P.S. I'm personally not moving to any other country any time soon.... we paid enough huge taxes to Canada/ON in 17 years we live here... so would like to get something back... but my kids have their choice, if they immigrate from here, we wouldn't stop them


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Davis said:


> And The Economist? Are you going to dismiss that as "Western propaganda against the Glorious Leader of the Russian people"? Would you really want to believe the Russian government over independent news sources?


Is it really independent?! So, in some articles, some authors criticized , however the y criticized not only him


> The Economist frequently accuses figures and countries of corruption or dishonesty. In recent years, for example, it criticised former World Bank president Paul Wolfowitz; Silvio Berlusconi, Italy's Prime Minister (who dubbed it The Ecommunist);[50] Laurent-Désiré Kabila, the late president of the Democratic Republic of the Congo; Robert Mugabe, the head of government in Zimbabwe; and, recently, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, the president of Argentina.[51] The Economist also called for Bill Clinton's impeachment and, after the emergence of the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse,[52] for Donald Rumsfeld's resignation. Though The Economist initially gave vigorous support for the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, it later called the operation "bungled from the start" and criticised the "almost criminal negligence" of the Bush Administration's handling of the war, while maintaining, as of April 2008, that pulling out in the short term would be irresponsible.[53] In the 2004 U.S. election, the editors "reluctantly" backed John Kerry.[54][55] In the 2008 U.S. election the newsmagazine endorsed Barack Obama, while using the election eve issue's front cover to promote his candidacy.[56] In the 2012 U.S. election, Barack Obama was again endorsed: the editorial said that they preferred Obama on the economy, foreign policy and health care, but criticised him for running a negative campaign against Romney and for a "poor appreciation of commerce".[57]


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

gibor said:


> Canada likes families like ours, as we pay in taxes 3-4 times more than average Canadian earns



no, we don't. We don't want your taxes or your money or your complaints or your lunatic rants.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> hate to ruin good Internet misinformation, but a simple check of the immigration numbers shows that both countries have provided around 2000-4000 immigrants per year over the last couple of decades, with Russia often 500-1000 above Israel. "90%" is obviously bogus; even if all Israeli migrants were somehow Russian pass-throughs you couldn't get to 50-50


 I'm talking from my personal experience at work, attending "Russian" supermarkets etc... 
Russian who immigrated after 1992 hold Russian passports, and I'm not sure if they are considered like immigrants from Israel or Russia... (for example US for green card processes consider immigrant by place of birth and not by place they live/apply)


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> no, we don't. We don't want your taxes or your money or your complaints or your lunatic rants.


who are "we"?! yourself and Davis :stupid: 
and we don't want bigot France immigrants like you!


----------



## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

Not sure about the Ontario budget, I dont live there, seems quite insurmountable now. Its bigger than californias debt with 1/3 as many people.

I know I do get sick to my stomach and almost cry when I see mcginty or wynn on tv. Nasty pair to say the least.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> I know I do get sick to my stomach and almost cry when I see mcginty or wynn on tv. Nasty pair to say the least.


I personally have "allergy" on those pair and on guy below


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

gibor said:


> who are "we"?! yourself and Davis



lol how many cmffers keep openly inviting you to leave canada .each:


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> lol how many cmffers keep openly inviting you to leave canada .each:


maybe 5 :stupid: ...really big number... I openly invite you (and them) and also all Trudeau/Wynne supporters to leave Canada, so we can have a normal government/country/province


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## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

I watch Ontario degenerate under Liberal rule with sorrow, and I'm also perplexed. No matter how big the scandal, or mismanagement of finances, even after countless catastrophic boondoggles, or even out-rite criminal activity, *they keep getting elected.*

My question for members of this forum who live in Ontario: How is that even possible? Who votes for these clowns?


----------



## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

They have opposition that doesn't know how to run a campaign.

First, Bob Rae scorched the earth in Ontario for a generation so they really aren't in the race for probably another 10 years, maybe 15. Then the PC's under Hudak announced that they would gleefully hand out pink slips to government workers. That pretty much put the final nail in the coffin of that campaign. The Liberals win by default.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

pwm said:


> My question for members of this forum who live in Ontario: How is that even possible? Who votes for these clowns?


It might actually now be everyone on the take and trying to strip the carcass before it goes down and maybe gets bailed out by feds anyway. That mentality is seeping in from Quebec and the surrounding area.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

gibor said:


> Actually i know more families that moved to Australia and EU than to US. Also you're talking about past... nobody knows what will be in the future


In the future, Canada could have all the anti-Trump Americans moving in.
http://fortune.com/2016/02/18/canada-island-welcomes-americans-trump/


Regardless - Stats Canada says that in 2000 to 2004 the USA was the main place for Canadians to migrate.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-008-x/2008001/c-g/10517/5004368-eng.htm

A US think tank says


> The vast majority of Canadian migrants settle in the United States, with others settling primarily in the United Kingdom (94,000), Australia (47,000), and Italy (27,000), according to mid-2013 estimates by the United Nations Population Division.


Without more recent numbers or a more comprehensive reporting system, it is hard to see what the current situation is.


BTW ... from what my Australian in-laws describe for the Australian tax system and cost of living as of March 2015, those moving to Australia to get away from the Canadian flavour might not end up in a better situation.

Wiki seems to agree.


> Because reductions of means tested benefits are additive, they can lead to a very high effective marginal tax rate of tax. For example, a person with children earning $95,000 would be taxed at a marginal rate of 39% including medicare, and lose 30c per extra dollar earned from the FTB-A benefit, *an effective marginal tax rate of 69%.*
> 
> If other means tested allowances are payable (e.g. child care benefits, superannuation co-contribution, payments for a disability etc.) *then the effective rate can be over 100%.*


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_Australia


Cheers


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> My question for members of this forum who live in Ontario: How is that even possible? Who votes for these clowns?


Live here 17 years , but cannot understand it! 
The only reason I can think about is a significant number of sexual minorities, Toronto is gay capital of NA and vast majority of them vote liberals..



> BTW ... from what my Australian in-laws describe for the Australian tax system and cost of living as of March 2015, those moving to Australia to get away from the Canadian flavour might not end up in a better situation.


 i know several families who moved to Australia and "tax system" wasn't the reason at all.... cannot tell reason on this forum as I can be banned (censorship)


Just checked wiki and looks like Aus has lower taxes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_taxes_in_Canada (look at comparison part)

Single no children	Married 2 children	

Australia	28.3%	16.0%
Canada 31.6% 21.5%


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

Once again gibor forms his opinions on anecdotal observations instead of facts and evidence. Gays are a small minority of the population in all but one or two downtown ridings. I wish we had the sort of power that gibor imagines we have. I think the province would be better off for it, but alas we don't. It is heterosexuals that elect the Liberals, and the Conservatives and the New Democrats. And it always will be because they are 90-95% of the population. You can't beat that for voting power.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

gibor said:


> Live here 17 years , but cannot understand it!


After decades of pre-election ranting "I can't stand ... " (insert your choice of Davis, Harris and McGuinty here) where the premier/party being ranted about were promptly re-elected ... I have long since given up. After the election, someone voting in favour is extremely hard to find.




gibor said:


> i know several families who moved to Australia and "tax system" wasn't the reason at all.... cannot tell reason on this forum as I can be banned (censorship)


That is good then ... they won't be disappointed. No need to go into details, I was only repeating what my in-laws outline.




gibor said:


> Just checked wiki and looks like Aus has lower taxes
> Single no children	Married 2 children
> 
> Australia	28.3%	16.0%
> Canada 31.6% 21.5%


I have no idea where the problem is with the comparison. All I can tell you is that they were married with two kids where what they described was nothing like 16%. 

His comment was that between the high taxes/cost of living, it was almost impossible to get ahead (his words). He also commented that it makes no sense that Australia has so much ocean but sushi is beyond the family budget, except at special occasions.

His description of the costs made it more understandable for some of the way I've seen Australians operate in other countries.

Cheers


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Davis said:


> Once again gibor forms his opinions on anecdotal observations instead of facts and evidence. Gays are a small minority of the population in all but one or two downtown ridings. I wish we had the sort of power that gibor imagines we have. I think the province would be better off for it, but alas we don't. It is heterosexuals that elect the Liberals, and the Conservatives and the New Democrats. And it always will be because they are 90-95% of the population. You can't beat that for voting power.


How many of yours , you should know better  Whatever you say , but Toronto is gay capital of NA and there are many gays who won't tell it in public ... there are also their family members ... so they can influence elections


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> That is good then ... they won't be disappointed. No need to go into details,


 I didn't  but you understand what i mean 



> I have no idea where the problem is with the comparison. All I can tell you is that they were married with two kids where what they described was nothing like 16%.
> 
> His comment was that between the high taxes/cost of living, it was almost impossible to get ahead (his words). .


This is probably just individual impression lol

Before I ran some numbers, i also though that US taxes are much-much less than Canadian, and on opposite Israeli are much much higher than Canadian (taking in consideration what a huge amounts are spent to defect Israel).
However, taxes in Israel similar or probably even lower than here.... max tax at 50% for salaries 270K+, max tax on interest/CPG is 32%... (probably they don't waste money on "climate change" and foreign aid )...



> He also commented that it makes no sense that Australia has so much ocean but sushi is beyond the family budget, except at special occasions


 we have the biggest lakes in the world and couple of oceans.... check how much cost live bass in RCSS  ... definitely much beyond many families budget lol


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## LBCfan (Jan 13, 2011)

To return to the topic, I don't much care. I don't live in Ontario (thankfully).


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

gibor said:


> Is it really independent?! So, in some articles, some authors criticized , however the y criticized not only him


Can you please cite your sources when you quote other parties?


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

lol @ gay conspiracy running Ontario...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

By any metric Ontario is doing well.

The debt to GDP is well within the normal range. The economy is rebounding from a deep recession. Ontario is the most diversified economy in Canada and is the engine that drives the Canadian economy.

People would do well to take right wing media and lobby groups wailing with a truckload of salt. When a Liberal government is doing well..........they are unhappy, and these days they have much to be unhappy about.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I disagree that Ontario can be complacent about its fiscal situation. It needs to reduce its debt:GDP.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Can you please cite your sources when you quote other parties?


quote I gave is from wikipedia ...search and enjoy reading


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Davis said:


> I don't think gibor would last too long in Russia: we know what happens to people who criticize the government there.





gibor said:


> Looks like you still live in "cold war" era or just brainwashed by local propaganda.... Now people who criticize the [Russian] government are treated exactly the same like in Canada..



the globe's Mark MacKinnon reports today from moscow on extensive but heavily-suppressed russian opposition to vladimir putin:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...n-vladimir-putins-stronghold/article28937616/


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## LBCfan (Jan 13, 2011)

sags said:


> By any metric Ontario is doing well.
> 
> .... and is the engine that drives the Canadian economy.
> 
> ....


Ya, surviving (like Quebec) on transfer payments and debt. Gimme a break.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

^^

speaking of transfer payments, didn't alberta (on its knees) receive $250,000,000 from the federal government only a few days ago?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

gibor said:


> I didn't  but you understand what i mean


Not really ... but knowing they weren't expecting a deal on taxes/cost of living is all that is relevant to my concern.




gibor said:


> This is probably just individual impression lol


It is a possibility ... but I doubt it for two reasons.

The first reason is that he had a lot of specific complaints about both the tax system and the cost of living stuff. Most people I know who are working off impressions don't have that much detail to discuss.

The second is probably more important ... he lived/paid US taxes for several years as a single person then about another six years with family, before they all moved to Australia (him home, the rest a new home).


Cheers


----------



## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> ^^
> 
> speaking of transfer payments, didn't alberta (on its knees) receive $250,000,000 from the federal government only a few days ago?


Well it was a payment to compensate for drop in GDP. The fun part about how equalization works, is that Ontario will soon become a have province due to the drop in the oil producing provinces.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

humble_pie said:


> speaking of transfer payments, didn't alberta (on its knees) receive $250,000,000 from the federal government only a few days ago?


All those boom years, and Alberta didn't even save for the future. They should have set aside money from royalties for their rainy day fund (like Norway did with oil revenues ... Norway's fund is $32 billion)

Very sad. The Alberta boom-bust cycle is inevitable and highly predictable.


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

james4beach said:


> All those boom years, and Alberta didn't even save for the future. They should have set aside money from royalties for their rainy day fund (like Norway did with oil revenues ... Norway's fund is $32 billion)
> 
> Very sad. The Alberta boom-bust cycle is inevitable and highly predictable.


Actually, Alberta started the Heritage Trust Fund back in the 1970s to save a portion of the oil royalties. They stopped paying in during the oil collapse in the 1980s. It looks like they kicked in a bit during surplus years 2005-2008. The fund is now at around $18 billion, and fed $1.4 billion of investment returns into general revenue last year.

Norway's "oil fund" runs around $US 800 billion, I believe, not $32 billion. That's about the same size as the top 10 public pension plans in Canada _combined_ (CPP, Caisse, OMERS, Ontario Teachers, etc). Those Norwegians own lots of stuff!


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

You're right, I was way off on the size. It's something like $825 billion US or *well over $1 trillion CAD.* Their population is 5 million people.

Now that's a legacy. Bravo to the Norwegian people and their brilliant politicians for thinking ahead to the future and helping Norway, instead of just enriching multinational energy companies and CEOs. INCREDIBLE! Imagine if Alberta and Canada had accomplished anything close to this as part of our enormous commodities and resource boom.

http://credbc.ca/norways-oil-gas-policy/


> How does Norway have so much money when it has less oil than Canada?
> 
> In 1990, the Norwegian government set up a sovereign oil fund, the Government Pension Fund Global, as a place to store the profits from its oil riches and save for future generations. *The fund is largely financed by high oil taxes (oil companies are taxed up to a whopping 78% on their profits from Norway oil)*, and the government only spends 4% of the fund’s assets per year. In January 2014, the fund’s value exceeded 5.11 trillion crowns ($905 billion USD) making it worth a million crowns per person, or about $177,000 USD per Norwegian. By January 2015, it will be worth over one trillion dollars. In addition, Norway has no government debt or deficit, and education is free from pre-school through post graduate university.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Well this sucks!



> Annual deductibles will rise for some Ontario seniors above a low-income threshold, with a jump to $170 from $100. Co-payments for those seniors will rise to $7.11 per prescription.


and home heating and electricity rising too....I hope Wynne and Desousa freeze in their homes. What a bunch of hypocrites!

http://www.thestar.com/news/queensp...rios-fight-against-global-warming-walkom.html

This extra "$5" fee the Fibeerals want to charge on nat gas will just be wasted along with a lot of the extra revenue they want to collect on the carbon taxes.

Remember Bob Rae's tire recycling tax in the 80s...collecting $5 per tire and wasting it..non of the money the NDP gov't collected went towards actual recycling.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Our health plan pays the deductible. Maybe the pharmacies should pay for those who don't have a plan. 

They are private businesses making money off the public health care system, and it may be time for them to contribute as well.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

sags, let me know when you start working for free. Time for you to contribute.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> This extra "$5" fee the Fibeerals want to charge on nat gas will just be wasted along with a lot of the extra revenue they want to collect on the carbon taxes.
> 
> Remember Bob Rae's tire recycling tax in the 80s...collecting $5 per tire and wasting it..non of the money the NDP gov't collected went towards actual recycling.


 those bastards always do it! I also read article that money from Ontaio Health tax spent on other than Health purposes


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> it plans to rejig the Ontario Drug Benefit program in a way that hikes co-payments and deductibles for seniors earning more than $19,300, while giving a break to those who earn less.


 what a BS! Seniors with lower income are not paying for drugs at all already! ..so what "break" they talking about?!




> The proposed tax hikes for carbon-emitting products, such as gasoline and home heating fuel, are part of Ontario’s effort to combat global warming.


What "global warming" they are talking about?! Looking at 2014 and 2015 winters in Ontario , they already won this combat !


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

And according to gibor, it snowed yesterday therefore the next Ice Age has just begun...


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## The_Tosser (Oct 20, 2015)

LBCfan said:


> Ya, surviving (like Quebec) on *transfer payments* and debt. Gimme a break.


ding ding ding, rofl.

This entire thread and its participants are funny as hell.

This guy comes closer than any of you, but just like the rest of you can't see it's the only possible solution and in fact thinks it too is a problem, rofl. You can't make this **** up. lol :stupid:

What exactly is it that allows for 100% ignorance of economics among effectively all Canadians? 

Let me ask you geniuses this. 

Where else would the 'money' come from but from the Federal sovereign "printing press"?

Here's the problem. You all fail the very first step. You don't understand sovereign money creation, therefore you're all immediately in the ditch piling stupid on top of ignorance in your quest to find your own dick. You're literally the dumb sheep you claim everyone else is. What do you think the odds are that total ignorance is going to hit upon the correct solution to money 'users'?

No need to answer, I already know.

Carry on, rofl. :hopelessness:


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

gibor said:


> what a BS! Seniors with lower income are not paying for drugs at all already! ..so what "break" they talking about?!


Where are you getting your info? The ONT Drug Benefit up to now, had a $100 mandatory deduction per year, that the first few prescriptions had to satisfy before the $4.11 co-pay kicked in. There is also a prescription filling fee. The new budget has raised the deductible to $170. in august.



> Higher drug prices for middle-income seniors: In August 2016, the government will raise the minimum income required for low-income seniors to receive drug benefits, to $19,300 for single seniors and $32,300 for couples.
> *But in order to fund the program, the government is raising the deductible on the Ontario Drug Benefit Program for seniors above those thresholds to $170 from $100. Co-payments will increase to $7.11 from $1*.





> What "global warming" they are talking about?! Looking at 2014 and 2015 winters in Ontario , they already won this combat !


The severity of our winters based on the jet strem (polar vortex) and el nino/elnina ocean currents don't have that much effect on the steady erosion of Arctic glaciers that have receded back from where they where in the 70's. 
Carbon monoxide from vehicles, heating and industry are responsible for raising the earth's temperature a couple of degrees each decade.

Ms Wynne and Mr.Trudough have convinced themselves that the cap and trade for the carbon footprint in Ontario is a good way to raise revenue desperately needed to stop digging a deeper financial hole in Ontario's deep doodo financial mess......only time will tell if that ever comes about...
....in the meantime..hit the smokers and drinkers (sin taxes)and drivers for gasoline, license fees etc etc..nickle and dime where it is possible.


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

The Ontario Drug Benefit deductible and clambering have not been increased for 20 years. 20 years! Do you know any thing else that has been fixed that long? CPP and OAS are indexed to inflation. GIS has been increased by more than inflation. 

The Ontario Health Premium will raise $3.6 billion in 2016/17, and the Ontario government will spend $51.8 billion on health care. To make it perfectly clear to gibor, $51.8 billion is more than $3.6 billion. (I'm sure than other readers will have picked up on that already.)


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## bass player (Jan 27, 2016)

carverman said:


> Carbon monoxide from vehicles, heating and industry are responsible for raising the earth's temperature a couple of degrees each decade.


Lol...10 degrees since 1965?? Where do you pull those imaginary numbers from?


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

andrewf said:


> sags, let me know when you start working for free. Time for you to contribute.


Nope..........can't work for free. We worked and contributed for a combined 85 years and now enjoy the "fruit salad" of our lives (thanks to Ben Carson for the quote).

I like the idea of the pharmacies paying the yearly senior fee. Some already pay the co-pay premiums. They can always opt out of providing drugs to seniors to avoid paying the $170 fee, if they so choose.

Anything else the different levels of government can give to seniors, is whip cream for the fruit salad.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Davis said:


> The Ontario Drug Benefit deductible and clambering have not been increased for 20 years. 20 years! Do you know any thing else that has been fixed that long? CPP and OAS are indexed to inflation. GIS has been increased by more than inflation.
> 
> The Ontario Health Premium will raise $3.6 billion in 2016/17, and the Ontario government will spend $51.8 billion on health care. To make it perfectly clear to gibor, $51.8 billion is more than $3.6 billion. (I'm sure than other readers will have picked up on that already.)


Whatever the new deductible is..I will gladly pay it..I'm on prescribed meds for the rest of my life, 
and I'm glad at least that the ODB/Trillum takes some of the sting out of buying drugs on a fixed pension budget.

Gibor..what does Russia cover for their seniors/ Nothing probably!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If you buy the drugs at Shoppers Drug Mart through the senior's plan, do they give reward points for the purchase and can you use the points to pay the $170 yearly fee ?

If not........maybe they should. Same with the other big pharmacies. with customer reward cards.


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## RUSH2112 (Mar 25, 2012)

*Liberal Propoganda*



sags said:


> By any metric Ontario is doing well.
> 
> The debt to GDP is well within the normal range. The economy is rebounding from a deep recession. Ontario is the most diversified economy in Canada and is the engine that drives the Canadian economy.
> 
> People would do well to take right wing media and lobby groups wailing with a truckload of salt. When a Liberal government is doing well..........they are unhappy, and these days they have much to be unhappy about.


The above comments are typical Liberal propaganda from a member of society out to justify his/her entitlement.

I would bet your a member of the "Sunshine list" and never been to a Salvation Army.

A true follower of the desperate Kathleen Wynne who buys votes via the Ontario government bank account.

By the way, your portion of the debt, via Liberal corruption is $21,635.00

http://www.debtclock.ca/provincial-debtclocks/ontario/ontario-s-debt/


----------



## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

Rush, you do realise that the debt has been created by successive Tory, Liberal, NDP, Tory and Liberal governments, don't you? Sure the current lot has increased the debt, but every party has added a bunch to it.


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## RUSH2112 (Mar 25, 2012)

Davis said:


> Rush, you do realise that the debt has been created by successive Tory, Liberal, NDP, Tory and Liberal governments, don't you? Sure the current lot has increased the debt, but every party has added a bunch to it.


Yes, I do realize that and there is good, manageable debt and bad debt.

Paying off unions and cancelling gas plants, the latter almost one billion dollars, is not good debt.

Trudeau and Wynne have done more do divide this nation than Obama has done in eight years.


----------



## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Davis said:


> Rush, you do realise that the debt has been created by successive Tory, Liberal, NDP, Tory and Liberal governments, don't you? Sure the current lot has increased the debt, but every party has added a bunch to it.


Ontario Debt-to-GDP










Source: Ontario Financing Authority

1990-1995: NDP
1995-2003: PC
2003-2016: Liberals

If you squint really hard, you will notice that the facts don't square with your claim.


----------



## RUSH2112 (Mar 25, 2012)

GoldStone said:


> Ontario Debt-to-GDP
> 
> Source: Ontario Financing Authority
> 
> ...


Nice try, not buying it.


----------



## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Talking about pharmacies and Ontario drug benefit for seniors. 

The moment I turned 65 my pharmacist wanted to deliver my maintenance drugs (1xcholesterol and 3xhigh blood pressure) every two weeks to my home for free. I refused because I think this means he would charge the province (or maybe my insurance? – my final co-pay is peanuts) every two weeks $10 per each drug (dispensing fees $80/month). Instead I am picking them up every two months ($20/month).

The pharmacy is a one person operation and I always get a good service from him. But I very rarely see anybody there. So on one hand I would not like to see him close, I bet there are many people who require such free home delivery service. On the other hand, not everybody has additional insurance covering the co-pay, and I am allergic to unnecessary overcharging.

The question is: maybe I do not have it right? Should I go for a “free home delivery”, if a small pharmacy cannot survive without increased charges? 
Or maybe I have it right and he is making a killing by overcharging? (Mind you, this I doubt.)


----------



## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

GoldStone said:


> If you squint really hard, you will notice that the facts don't square with your claim.


I fail to see how your facts which are debt:GDP ratios refute the OP comment regarding debt. I am reasonability sure David's assertion is accurate. Having said that, it does not really provide much defense to what the Ontario liberals have done and continue to do to the citizens of this province.

Hboy43


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Where are you getting your info? The ONT Drug Benefit up to now, had a $100 mandatory deduction per year


 This is for seniors with annual income above 16K or so, if it's less, senior pays up to $2 max, sometimes doesn't pay at all..



> Lower income seniors can apply to have their deductible waived and only have to pay up to $2 each time they fill a prescription for an approved product. This is called the “Seniors Co-Payment Program”. You have to apply to qualify for the lower ODB fees. If you don’t apply, you will have to pay the higher fees.


http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/programs/drugs/programs/odb/opdp_after65.aspx


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

RUSH2112 said:


> Trudeau and Wynne have done more do divide this nation than Obama has done in eight years.


Very true!


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

carverman said:


> Gibor..what does Russia cover for their seniors/ Nothing probably!


Have no idea! I lived there when it was CCCP and than medications for everyone were extremely cheap.
However can give you some info about Israel, from my personal experience , drugs (as well as dentist services) there cost about 10-30% of the cost of the same drugs in Canada.
No wonder that as per Bloomberg, Israel is in 7th place among Most efficient healthcare in the world ... and Canada is on modest 21th place

http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/best-and-worst/most-efficient-health-care-2014-countries


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

hboy43 said:


> I fail to see how your facts which are debt:GDP ratios refute the OP comment regarding debt. I am reasonability sure David's assertion is accurate. Having said that, it does not really provide much defense to what the Ontario liberals have done and continue to do to the citizens of this province.
> 
> Hboy43


You are arguing a technicality. Davis effectively asserted that all three parties are equally irresponsible. Debt-to-GDP chart refutes his stance. The chart shows very clearly that PC government was the only administration that managed to keep Debt-to-GDP constant. In fact, they managed to reduce it, albeit by a small amount.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

GoldStone said:


> Ontario Debt-to-GDP
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We should really be factoring in what happened from a broader macroeconomic perspective. Both tick ups in debt to GDP were triggered by large recessions that hit Ontario fairly hard. Not to say that Ontario can ignore its debt level, but that the relative performance of each party is skewed by the circumstances they found themselves in. The PCs governed through a period of very strong economic performance in Ontario driven by the low Canadian dollar and buoyant US economy. This is the same time frame where the federal Liberals were able to close a large deficit and reduce Canada's debt:GDP dramatically.

Here's a good chart for context:


----------



## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

^

The PCs governed during the downloading era. Chretien/Martin balanced the budgets on the back of the provinces. Factor that in as well.


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

RUSH2112 said:


> By the way, your portion of the debt, via Liberal corruption is $21,635.00
> 
> http://www.debtclock.ca/provincial-debtclocks/ontario/ontario-s-debt/





Davis said:


> Rush, you do realise that the debt has been created by successive Tory, Liberal, NDP, Tory and Liberal governments, don't you? Sure the current lot has increased the debt, but every party has added a bunch to it.





GoldStone said:


> Ontario Debt-to-GDP
> 
> If you squint really hard, you will notice that the facts don't square with your claim.





GoldStone said:


> You are arguing a technicality. Davis effectively asserted that all three parties are equally irresponsible. Debt-to-GDP chart refutes his stance. The chart shows very clearly that PC government was the only administration that managed to keep Debt-to-GDP constant. In fact, they managed to reduce it, albeit by a small amount.


Goldstone, if you recast someone's argument as something that it isn't, it is easy to dismiss it. We're talking about debt, not the debt-to-GDP ratio. 

Ontario's debt was about $30 billion when Bill Davis (PC left office). It rose over $35 B by the time David Peterson (Liberal) left office in 1990, and to $90B by the time Bob Rae (NDP) left office. It rose over $132 B during the Harris (PC) years, and is now over $300B.

So clearly it does not exist just because of the McGuinty/Wynne Liberal government, but because all parties have increased the debt. As far as "effectively asserted that all three parties are equally irresponsible", no, I didn't. I wrote "every party has added a bunch to it". If I were to write "Goldstone effectively argued that black is white and day is night", then I too could make snarky comments about the facts not supporting your arguments. But I don't find that sort of approach to result in a useful discussion of issues.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

RUSH2112 said:


> By the way, your portion of the debt, via Liberal corruption is $21,635.00
> http://www.debtclock.ca/provincial-debtclocks/ontario/ontario-s-debt/


So sorry ... but at least two other gov'ts put their share in. The Liberals may be worse but they are not alone.

Personally, I find the debt claims confusing ... not so long along there were headlines about how Ontario's was supposed to be double California's yet California's debt clock says they are still in the lead. 
http://www.usdebtclock.org/state-debt-clocks/state-of-california-debt-clock.html

Another claim was that the per person number was five times Ontario's yet my math says half.


The spending/wastage does need to be dealt with but the numbers are all over the map.


Cheers


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The other thing I noticed is that Ontario raises more revenue that California (division of revenues federally vs sub-national is more balanced in Ontario), so some of the fear mongering is unwarranted. Of course, I am of the opinion that Ontario needs to get its debt under control. I just don't agree we are verging on a Greece situation.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

The trend is the wrong way so something has to change ... maybe use the $1 billion for eHealth for something other than underused computers plus mostly consultant salaries for 300+ and less than 30 civil servants but not much progress? Or other such stuff.

Then too, consider that usually when there are huge claims, there is usually some twist by whomever is trying to shift the thinking. Cavaet Emptor applies to what shows up in the media.


Using California as an example again, part of what my Californian relatives complain about is the state employees. I've seen some bad things here in Ontario, but I don't recall fired police chiefs working for less than three years then collecting their pension at 98% of salary while working for another city.

Last I checked, Ontario university head coaches weren't being paid a salary of $3.3 million or $2.0 million or even $800K. (In something like 22 of 50+ states, the highest paid state employee is the football head coach).


California also seems to suffer from similar spin doctors as their numbers are all over the map ... depending on the presenter's pitch.


The problem I have is jumping to do something based on incomplete or spun info seems to me that one is likely to jump from firing pan to the fire instead of a more reasonable solution.

Cheers


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

E-Health was a good idea, but somebody really screwed up the implementation of the program.

I was in the doctor's office today, and needed some information from previous emergency room visits. Sorry, says the doctor's office........we don't have any of that on file.

My doctor retired and a new one took over the practice. No records for a lot of things that were dealt with at specialists or the hospital.

People move, doctors retire, ........there should be a consistent and up to date medical file for everyone, so it can be called up at the hospital or doctor's office.

Every appointment with every different doctor or specialist, a patient has to put pen to paper and fill out all their medications etc.

It is more of a "hit and miss" system of record keeping, than it should be.

Think about travel insurance. Today a person has to fill out the questions and is denied if they miss something.

It would be so much easier just to print off a file and give it to them.......and they wouldn't have grounds to refuse to pay.

Think about being sick or involved in an accident and not being able to respond to questions. Would family or friends be able to provide all the information ?

Everything should be available from one central source, that is easily accessible to those with patient permission.

Every part of the health care system is a castle with it's own moat. We can do better than that.........it is 2016 after all.

I give the Liberals high marks for trying to provide a solution, but zero marks on implementing it.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

sags said:


> E-Health was a good idea, but somebody really screwed up the implementation of the program.


Likely it depends on the point of view ... the 300+ consultants or the VPs being flown in from Alberta or the top person being paid $300K+ for about ten months then a severance of $300K+ probably loved it.




sags said:


> I give the Liberals high marks for trying to provide a solution, but zero marks on implementing it.


The first round of $1 Billion was started under the Harris Conservatives then continued on under the McGuinty Liberals.

More electronic records are in use than the auditor's report in 2009 but recent reports makes it sound like the progress is still sub-par and the costs are still off the charts.


It would have been better if they'd applied what they learned but it sounds like the upper management at Orng are having similar issues as former Ornge CEO Chris Mazza is to be paid $9.3 million over six years in severence, never mind the financial irregularities and corruption allegations alleged.


Lots of places that money can be better spent.


Cheers


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Davis said:


> Goldstone, if you recast someone's argument as something that it isn't, it is easy to dismiss it. We're talking about debt, not the debt-to-GDP ratio.
> 
> Ontario's debt was about $30 billion when Bill Davis (PC left office). It rose over $35 B by the time David Peterson (Liberal) left office in 1990, and to $90B by the time Bob Rae (NDP) left office. It rose over $132 B during the Harris (PC) years, and is now over $300B.
> 
> So clearly it does not exist just because of the McGuinty/Wynne Liberal government, but because all parties have increased the debt. As far as "effectively asserted that all three parties are equally irresponsible", no, I didn't. I wrote "every party has added a bunch to it". If I were to write "Goldstone effectively argued that black is white and day is night", then I too could make snarky comments about the facts not supporting your arguments. But I don't find that sort of approach to result in a useful discussion of issues.


All fair points. Let's talk about debt rather than debt/GDP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_government_debt

PC government (1995-2003)

1994/1995 debt: 90.7B
2002/2003 debt: 132.6B

An increase of 41.9B over 8 years, or *5.2B/year* on average.


Liberal government (2003-2016)

2002/2003 debt: 132.6B
2016/2017 debt: 308.3B

An increase of 175.7B over 13 years, or *13.5B/year* on average.


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

So we can agree that the debt is not the sole responsibility of the Liberals, as Rush stated then. I don't dispute that the Liberals have increased it faster. Part of that is because they have governed later, and so part of the faster growth comes from higher prices and larger population. The other part of it comes from the Liberals being more willing to spend. It is interesting that in the recent by-election the Tories were focus their attacks on Liberal cuts to health care, and not on the deficit. I guess they figure that Ontarians are not interested in austerity these days.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Another big factor is that the PCs didn't govern during a deep recession. There was a very mild one in 2001.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Another big factor is that the PCs didn't govern during a deep recession. There was a very mild one in 2001.


and on other hand you (all Liberals supporters) complain on mild federal PC debt who govern through big recession! Hypocrisy in action!

P.S. Until Liberals will rule on Fed and ON level, our economy will be in deep ****


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Was it a mild deficit? It was $150+ billion.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Davis said:


> ... Part of that is because they have governed later, and so part of the faster growth comes from higher prices and larger population. The other part of it comes from the Liberals being more willing to spend ...


I'd throw in a good chunk of the $1 billion for eHealth, $1 billion (or was it more) for the electricity plants etc. as well. I'd have to check how the previous gov't scandals did ... though I seem to recall Davis' "just about to step down, I'll put in what I have opposed" move of extending funding to Catholic school system as having a large price tag attached to it.




Davis said:


> ... It is interesting that in the recent by-election the Tories were focus their attacks on Liberal cuts to health care, and not on the deficit. I guess they figure that Ontarians are not interested in austerity these days.


Which seemed to be part of the problem with their campaign strategy ... Hudak and/or his team seemed to think the population at large wanted change so a so-so campaign was all that was required.


Cheers


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## RUSH2112 (Mar 25, 2012)

Approximately 16 press releases by the Wynne government on February 25 alone, all patting her on the back for a job well done.

No wonder the province is on the brink of economic collapse.

Joseph Goebbels would be proud.


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

Sure, there's a causal relationship between press releases and economic collapse. Sure.


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