# 10% Return possible?



## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

I have a little bit of cash saved up and would like to make money on it instead of just sitting in the bank and getting 0.25%. After reading some books and using online calculators, I would like to know how realistic a 10% year after year is. I am 32 with 4 kids so I am not looking for anything risky. Just something conservative to grow. What is a realistic return one can expect?

Also, most of my cash is in US$. Most banks in canada will pay peanuts because its in US$. In the US some banks offer 2% in the money market accounts. 2nd is that CDIC does not insure US$. Taking those two into consideration, would you move your $$ accross the border? If so, would there be any legal/tax implications?

Thanks!


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## mario 1 (Nov 6, 2009)

Wouldn't we all love a risk free 10% return 
There is no such thing, unless it's someone trying to scam your money.
You could get a better rate than .25%, some smaller institutions offer as much as 2%., but that's about as high as you can go . With some risk appetite you
might consider blue chip dividend paying stocks or preferred shares, otherwise you're out of luck.
As far as the US dollars I don't think it would be worth going throw all that
trouble to get 2%, but I'm not that familiar with US dollar accounts.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

Not a good time to be selling US for CAD; may want to wait until / if the rate ex drops again for a bit, but it may not. If you did wait and ex rates did drop, you could make your 10% compared to todays ex rate with no risk other than you may be waiting a while and this would be a 1 time gain though. 

Assuming you have your $ converted to CAD, the only way I know of to get 10% returns is to look at trusts or REITs, but of which are riskly from the range of options perspective. REITs are likely better positioned because they do not have to change their company payout structure by the end of the year like non REIT trusts do.

For example, one REIT that has been raised recently is D.UN, paying 10%+ yield, but again, there is risk in buying any stock, and these are not 'blue chip'.

I guess if the markets are working the way they are supposed to, higher return == higher risk in general, so that is just a fact of investing.

leslie or another more experienced investor may be able to correct me on my comments and / or provide more details than the high level blah blah that my current abilities allow.


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## lb71 (Apr 3, 2009)

Unfortunately conservative investor and 10% returns do not go together. Unless you can handle the ups and downs of the markets, you will be stuck investing in GICs, and they top out at about 3.25% for a 5 year rate these days. You may be able to average a 10% return over a number of years, but you would have to be prepared to live through some bad years (eg, 2008). By definition, a conservative investor does not want a 2008 scenario in his portfolio.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

NEVER, put money in a bank that is not CDIC insured.

You are not given an interest rate commensurate with the risk of lending money to a highly leveraged institution. I couldn't care less if it is the Royal Bank or what not. Royal Trust was the 6th largest bank in Canada just before it went bankrupt in 1992. Washington Mutual in the US had been around for over 100 years and was the largest savings and loan company in the United States. 

If you have more than $100,000, think about opening a brokerage account that brokers deposits. Not only can you get a higher interest rate, but you can put 5 or 6, CDIC insured banks into one account, and a brokerage account has a CIPF guarantee of $1,000,000.

Good luck to you.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Try this link...provides some background on understanding the issues posed by seeking a risk-free 10% rate of return...


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## leslie (May 25, 2009)

I think the issue is decided by your reference to "a little bit of cash". Of course you want to make your saving 'work' for you, but that is not really the best attitude. When you strive for higher returns, you must also accept the possibility of loss. Statistical, historical averages mask that reality.

It is not the rate of return that matters when your savings are small. What matters FAR more is your additional savings. Discussion.

Even the most simple strategy of investing (passive indexing) does not guarantee returns. You must be reading in the papers all the moaning because US indexes have generated only 1% over the last decade. Your returns depend on your luck, your knowledge about investing, your willingness to devote time and effort, the economy , etc.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> Try this link...provides some background on understanding the issues posed by seeking a risk-free 10% rate of return...


Thanks for the link MoneyGal. I never realized there was once actually a "Free Lunch" to be had.

Why don't bars do this now? I guess Vegas comes pretty close.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

All the casinos provide discounted food. A discounted lunch, if not a free one.  But you pay in the end, which is the point of the saying, eh?


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## steve_jay33 (Aug 29, 2009)

Index Fund with a low MER. Least Risk and requires the least amount of knowledge. Not likely to get 10%.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

One option is a high-yield bond fund.
PHN has one of the best, however, the MER is higher than others at 1.47%.
This fund has returned over 16% last year.
Note that high-yield is an euphemism for "junk bonds".


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## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies.

I was not planning on switching to Canadian $$. I want to leave in US$ and hope it will pick up one day to 2005-2006 highs. What worries me is that my money is sitting in US$ in canadian banks and is not CDIC insured because it's in a foreign currency.

Do I really have to bring it over to USA just to be FDIC insured? If I open up an account at TD Waterhouse canada for example, do they have 1,000,000 coverage?


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

mcu said:


> I was not planning on switching to Canadian $$. I want to leave in US$ and hope it will pick up one day to 2005-2006 highs. What worries me is that my money is sitting in US$ in canadian banks and is not CDIC insured because it's in a foreign currency.
> 
> Do I really have to bring it over to USA just to be FDIC insured? If I open up an account at TD Waterhouse canada for example, do they have 1,000,000 coverage?


How much are we talking about here?
You say you have a "little bit of cash"...little bit can be $100, $1,000 or $1M depending on who you are.
If it is in the lower thousands and not hundreds of thousands, I would say you are worrying too much about the currency conversion.
USD is not going to get significantly stronger than CAD like it was 6+ years ago anytime soon (unless epoch-changing events occur).
If you are a Canadian, living in Canada and plan to live/work in Canada for the next little while, I suggest keep things simple and convert the cash.

I remember myself many years ago moving from the UK to the US and bemoaning the conversion from GBP to USD and again several years ago moving from the US to Canada and trying to eke out the best possible conversion rate.
In the end, a few bps doesn't really matter unless we are talking about hundreds of thousands.


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## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

we talking over 500k


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

mcu said:


> we talking over 500k


So way beyond the range of anything I've ever played with.
With that amount, you are better off diversifying i.e. not putting all your eggs in one basket - USD or CAD, or a specific stock.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

dear mrormrs emseeyou

something unreal about this thread.

you have 500k in a mattress bank account & you are worried about the one-half of one per cent and the insurance.
?
ps mind telling us how a 32-year-old with 4 kids obtained half a million USD.
?


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## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

By working hard and saving my money! Not blowing it on stupid stuff that most people do. Humble_pie you sound like a jealous *** with your last comment. Why would I like about my situation? This is exactly why i didn't want to give an amount in my original post.

What is the 1/2 percent I am arguing about? What about the insurance? 

I thought this forum was to get info and help each other, not judge others because they have managed to save more money than you have.

To all the others, I really appreciate all the info/suggestions so far.


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## tojo (Apr 20, 2009)

mcu said:


> we talking over 500k


If you are able to do this by 32 years of age, you should really tread carefully with this kind of money. You are in a position to set yourself up very well for the rest of your life. You may be risking too much in trying for a 10% annual gain long term. 

If you had said 10% for a $5000 or even $50,000 portfolio, then fine - a downturn in the market is likely recoverable with your future earnings and savings. But one bad year against a 1/2 million portfolio will wipe you out for a long time, and derail any future plans you may have.

What are your goals?

As a simplified example, if you want to retire in 20 years, say with an annual contribution of $20000 / yr towards your portfolio, you could end up with $2 million for your retirement with just a 5% (compounded) annual gain. This is much more possible, and considerably less risky than trying for 10% long term. Again, we don't know your situation, but ask yourself: What are my targets/goals? What sort of timing am I looking at? How much can I regularly contribute? What are my future needs? This will help you construct a savings/investing plan that will serve your future needs without unnecessary risk. 

Congratulations for such a remarkable savings at a young age....but be careful and don't put it on the line with one bad investment decision.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Whether you can keep that much money in the US or not depends on your status in the US.
Are you a dual citizen or US Green Card holder?
Do you file US taxes?
If not, it may be problematic to keep that much cash in the US.
The post Patriot Act monitoring is very rigid and it's getting worse every day, but I'm sure you already know this.
Don't hold your breath waiting for pre-2005 exchange rates.


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## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

Thanks tojo! This is exactly what I am trying to avoid. Making some dumb investment mistake and risk all I have worked hard for. In 2002 just shortly after we got married I had saved up about 70k and lost it all in the stock market. I was left with debt. It was very dumb on my part to have put everything in, but I guess it was an expensive tuition. I managed to get myself back up, by working 18-20 hour days, but now I am kind of burnt out. So I can't say for sure how much longer/more I can contribute.

My dream was to be able to make a 30k salary from my saving within the next 5 years and still being able to retire or die with a decent amount of cash to leave to my kids. I thought 10% was risky, but when I read this book by Robert Allen, I was amazed how much a difference it made from 6 to 10%.

It would be nice if I didn't have to work or If I can stop working full time and just take a little part time job fo 25-30 hours week. This will allow me to spend the time I want with my kids and wife.

So what is a realistic, safe %? 4-5%? After taxes, what are we left with since its interest income?

Feel free for anymore suggestion on what I can do to protect my family and at the same time increase the value of our savings

THANKS!


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## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

I am Canadian and was afraid of that also.I was also afraid that we might not see pre-2005 rates anytime soon. Think we will ever see them again? Hoping history will repeat itself  I don't have any immediate need for it right now anyway


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

mcu said:


> Thanks tojo! This is exactly what I am trying to avoid. Making some dumb investment mistake and risk all I have worked hard for. In 2002 just shortly after we got married I had saved up about 70k and lost it all in the stock market. I was left with debt. It was very dumb on my part to have put everything in, but I guess it was an expensive tuition.


So in or around 2002 - 2003, you had no savings and were in debt.
Which means in about 7 years, you have managed to amass $500K USD?
Wow - it is either a tremendous achievement or you are trolling here.
I find it difficult to believe that you managed that simply on overtime pay, given that tax rates in the US aren't all that low once you get in to $100K+ income brackets.
And you have obviously not worked 20 hr. days for 7 years straight.

So if a significant portion of your increase in net worth is from investment returns, then you are beating the likes of Warren B. and Peter L. and certainly don't need to be seeking advice here on getting a measly 10% return.

In fact, _you_ should be teaching the rest of us mortals how to make that kind of wealth in 7 years.


> but when I read this book by Robert Allen


OK, now I'm begining to suspect this is spam, soliciting or trolling.
I think you need to come clean....


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## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

Here we go again! Yes I worked 20 hours/day for past 7 years. The bad thing of owning a business. I was making 200k/year. After taxes, expenses, etc, I am left with this. Why is that so hard to believe? Economy has killed my business and I am looking to see if i can make my life from what I have saved


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## mario 1 (Nov 6, 2009)

There is one way around your problem.
You can open a cash optimizer account with Scotia I-trade.
The rates are .50 for US dollars, but you are covered by
the Canadian Investor Protection Fund (CIPF) up to a million dollars
including US dollars.
Plus you have the ability to buy mutual funds and other investments
in the plan if you so chose.
Other brokers might offer the same thing, make sure to do your homework first.


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## msimms (Apr 17, 2009)

Take a few years to research on how to invest it and then decide. Don't rush it. Plenty of time.


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## DrStan (Apr 5, 2009)

Amassing this kind of money in a few short years is far from impossible. I have done the same, and I am the same age as the poster (only half the kids, though). I have done it with two parental leaves and at disadvantageous Canadian tax rates. A lot of evening and weekend work, though. So yes, it can certainly be done. 

With that kind of nest egg, you will be able to build a portfolio of dividend-paying stocks that should sustain a 5% yield. 10% is frankly impossible for a conservative investor. There should be room in there for higher-yielding stocks, but definitively look at stocks with a history of dividend growth. Considering your age, buying companies that will likely increase dividends over time (such as utilities) could help sustain you over a number of years. There should also be some fixed income if you intend to withdraw some money from the nest egg in the next couple of years. Nothing worse than having to sell at depressed prices.

All the analysts are yapping about the higher interest rates coming next year and beyond. This could allow you to purchase a few bonds at more interesting yields than right now. 

All in all, I'm not sure $500k or anything within that range can be enough to sustain a family with 4 kids from investment returns alone. It may be worth it to slog along for a few more years and continue building the portfolio.


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## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

Congrats to you also DrStan. I am glad to hear others have done the same. What kind of goals have you set so far in terms of investing/returns? Is retirement coming soon for you or long time ahead?


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## tojo (Apr 20, 2009)

DrStan said:


> Amassing this kind of money in a few short years is far from impossible. I have done the same,


I agree that this is not impossible. I have seen examples of this myself and they are typically the “millionaire next door” type, i.e. modest individuals with modest homes that are paid off quickly, simple cars and vehicles (often used), simple lifestyles etc. What they all have in common is the ability to control their expenses and track their everyday spending – to be able to keep what they’ve earned and accumulate some pretty impressive savings.

For the OP, your first priority should be the well-being of your family. You can do this and still look forward to a nice early retirement so long as you remain sensible in your goals and protect the nest-egg you have amassed. I’m not in a position to tell you what to do, but consider switching careers that will allow you to spend time with your family and still take in a decent enough salary with benefits to care for them. You can continue to grow your substantial savings with a more conservative outlook, while ensuring the well being of yourself and your family.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.


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## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

Thanks Tojo. Yes this is exactly what I plan on doing. I have already taken a break from my work for paternal leave and I do plan on switching the career. It's going to be a killer going from a huge salary to maybe 30-40k/year, but it's a compromise I am willing to take in order to enjoy my time with the family. I have seen so many people leave this world at a young age so we never know what life has in store for us.

I guess I will take your suggestions and take the time to invest properly. I would be very happy with a 4-5% yield. Are any others here making this now with dividend paying stocks or bonds?


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## DrStan (Apr 5, 2009)

mcu said:


> Congrats to you also DrStan. I am glad to hear others have done the same. What kind of goals have you set so far in terms of investing/returns? Is retirement coming soon for you or long time ahead?


Yup, it's possible. I have some contract income besides my regular job and have been able to save every penny I have ever earned that way. To me, that is absolutely key, even though it has required a lot of hard work. The goals are fluctuating, because so much depends on how much contracts will bring per year. My wife and I also have "regular" jobs with defined benefit pension plans that should provide a healthy retirement income. 

I am a strong, strong believer in passive income from dividends. Every time we put $1,000 away, I always think "At 5%, this will provide $50 a year for the rest of our lives with zero additional working effort". It's strangely motivating. 

We do plan on retiring early, but so much is uncertain... the markets probably won't provide large returns in the next few years. Right now, we have fully maximized our RRSPs, RESPs ($2500 per child per year), TFSAs and we have a healthy non-registered account. Considering our age, we have a very high risk tolerance, so all investments are individual dividend stocks (REI.UN, ENB, NA, BMO, etc.) and ETFs (XIU, XIN, XSP, etc.) 

We are concentrating on building our investments in order to provide as much income as possible, and replace part of our working income.
We would like to retire at age 50/52... and my projections are for about $90K in net income in today's dollars at that time, based on a 5% investment return and 3% inflation. Should be plenty.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

mcu said:


> I guess I will take your suggestions and take the time to invest properly. I would be very happy with a 4-5% yield. Are any others here making this now with dividend paying stocks or bonds?


So now you are ok with 4 - 5% return, down from your earlier 10% expectations?
4 - 5% is very achievable in a conservative manner.
A dividend ETF like XDV would do that.
You could split your allocation between XDV and XBB.
The US portion could go into one of the Vanguard ETFs that mirror the S&P500 and the MS international indexes.
5% should be very realistic, unless the worl economy goes into a prolonged tailspin.
Good luck and congratulations on an solid financial situaiton.


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## stinsont (May 29, 2009)

mcu, I am not so unlike yourself - 36 w/ 2 kids. I sold my business which put me in a solid financial position. I have two portfolios. 1 that I let the pros handle and am satisfied with market gains and another that I manage and am not satisfied with market gains.

I am not a pro investor but really do enjoy the challenge. In my 2nd portfolio I like to look at steady stocks that pay dividends. Stocks that are 'less' likely to take a big capital hit such as utility/telcom stocks that have predictable revenue streams - as an example I hold AT&T low volatility and pays a nice dividend.

If you are willing to do the work I would (and do) invest in stocks instead of EFT's as my feeling is that the gains are potentially bigger (so is the risk so homework is necesary).

Also, do yourself a favor and contribute into your TFSA's.


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## lb71 (Apr 3, 2009)

mcu said:


> we talking over 500k


With that kind of portfolio, spend some money and seek professional help. No point in you trying to figure things out on your own, since it is obvious you do not know what to do and are not comfortable investing.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

My mom retired because she had a brain tumor. Due to the nature of her disease and the prolonged recovery period my parents hired a financial advisor to manage their portfolio. By one year later they had lost $100,000 of $600,000. That's when my parents figured there was no way they could do worst. 

This was with Scotia McLeod. They also really enjoyed the fact that they kept collecting the management on the original balance managed rather than the actual balance.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

lb71 said:


> With that kind of portfolio, spend some money and seek professional help. No point in you trying to figure things out on your own, since it is obvious you do not know what to do and are not comfortable investing.


I'd refine this by suggesting that if you are going to seek professional help, and not do a coach potato strategy or something that does not require a lot of knowledge, then you need to seek 'very good' professional help. But how does one go about doing that?

My problem is that when ever I have seeked professional help it has either become clear from the first meeting, or clear from my returns, that the help was not really any help (the professional was just pushing what their company told them to push) and I would have been better of going a passive coach potato approach.

500K sounds like a lot, but as some other member pointed out, you likely need 1 - 2 M + to get the attention of a professional who is really going to tend to your money more than you would yourself. At 500K, you are going to get bank advisors with some fancy title and very little time or interest in actually truely managing your portfolio. 

My experience at least.


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## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

Well this is exactly how I feel also. I have tried advisors at my bank that supposedly are the best at what they do, and I found that none of them was in it for my best interest. They all tried to push products that I believe made them more money. At the end I ended up losing enough with them and many sleepless nights. 

I just found out that my brokerage account that I used in the past covers me for up to 1 million, so I will transfer my money back into that and keep in the a money market, but the minute I called to ask, the guy is already trying to get me to invest again! 

Since the money is insured up to 1 million....would most of you feel comfortable enough to keep it all with one bank/brokerage?


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

mcu said:


> Well this is exactly how I feel also. I have tried advisors at my bank that supposedly are the best at what they do, and I found that none of them was in it for my best interest. They all tried to push products that I believe made them more money. At the end I ended up losing enough with them and many sleepless nights.
> 
> I just found out that my brokerage account that I used in the past covers me for up to 1 million, so I will transfer my money back into that and keep in the a money market, but the minute I called to ask, the guy is already trying to get me to invest again!
> 
> Since the money is insured up to 1 million....would most of you feel comfortable enough to keep it all with one bank/brokerage?


If you want 0 risk (guaranteed principle ), the only options I know of are GICs or savings accounts. even a money market fund is not guaranteed principle is it? 

The issue with this is that if you are making 1 - 2 % on your whole portfolio, you are really loosing $ over time when you factor in inflation I would think.

Maybe buying federal gov bonds is 0 risk too, but what are they paying?


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## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

Yea...I understand. I have a lot of homework to do. I know they way it is now, making 1/2 or 1% I am losing money every year because of inflation. This is why I am looking for solutions.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

mcu said:


> Yea...I understand. I have a lot of homework to do. I know they way it is now, making 1/2 or 1% I am losing money every year because of inflation. This is why I am looking for solutions.


You /could/ go with a pure govt. bond fund like XGB.
The majority of constituent bonds are rated AAA or AA.
You will not lose money with this.

Returns are low right now (obviously) but over the long run this fund returns more than 4.5%.

Other option is to buy govt bonds (called Canadas) directly at your brokerage.
You could create a ladder of govt. bonds using zero coupons.
These are very liquid bonds and come as close to a CDIC insured savings account as anything can.
You will not lose capital.
Unless YTM becomes negative at some point in our economic cycle, you will not lose money.
And if YTM is ever 0 or negative, we can safely say that return on your bond will be the least of your worries ;o)


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## lb71 (Apr 3, 2009)

ssimps said:


> 500K sounds like a lot, but as some other member pointed out, you likely need 1 - 2 M + to get the attention of a professional who is really going to tend to your money more than you would yourself. At 500K, you are going to get bank advisors with some fancy title and very little time or interest in actually truely managing your portfolio.
> 
> My experience at least.


Hmm. Never having used one, I would have thought that a 30 year old with half a million dollars to invest would have gotten the attention of a few people. I would avoid the bank guys too and try to find a fee based independent advisor. My concern is that mcu has no idea what to do. Asking for help on a forum such as this is a good start, but not the solution. He needs to talk to someone and do more homework. Given his situation I would suggest he pay for some help.


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## lb71 (Apr 3, 2009)

mcu said:


> I just found out that my brokerage account that I used in the past covers me for up to 1 million, so I will transfer my money back into that and keep in the a money market, but the minute I called to ask, the guy is already trying to get me to invest again!
> 
> Since the money is insured up to 1 million....would most of you feel comfortable enough to keep it all with one bank/brokerage?


Just to be clear, that $1 million dollar "insurance" does not protect you against investment losses, but against the brokerage becoming insolvent. 

There is no guarantee that investing in a money market fund will preserve your capital.


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## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

I don't mind paying for help or guidance, but how do I chose the right one?


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## lb71 (Apr 3, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> You /could/ go with a pure govt. bond fund like XGB.
> The majority of constituent bonds are rated AAA or AA.
> You will not lose money with this.


That is not a guarantee. Chances are small, but it could happen. If you invested today and rates start ramping up over the next year or so, you would suffer a loss if you had to sell.



> Returns are low right now (obviously) but over the long run this fund returns more than 4.5%.


Past performance does not predict future returns. Do not invest in this fund expecting a 4.5% annual return.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

lb71 said:


> That is not a guarantee. Chances are small, but it could happen. If you invested today and rates start ramping up over the next year or so, you would suffer a loss if you had to sell.
> 
> Past performance does not predict future returns. Do not invest in this fund expecting a 4.5% annual return.


Of course it's not guaranteed - nothing other than GICs and savings accounts are.
But if the OP wants to do better than that, govt. bonds are next in line.
If ETF is still to risky, then buy the govt. bonds directly thorugh the brokerage and hold them to maturity.
Unless the central govt. of Canada defaults on it's loan, he will not lose his capital.


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## mutant guppie (Jan 13, 2010)

*why be conservative?*

why 10%? You can do a lot better than 10%. Don't let those other people tell you what you're possible of. If there's one thing that's repeated in all this advice it's that it takes risk to get somewhere and pay the bills.

I'm in a similiar situation, 30's, kids, let go in the bust in late '08 etc. and have gone the other way with my investments without advice from the 'pros'. And you know what I discovered? Skies the limit. Better than 10%, better than 90% better than what the pro's have done last year, including the small few who made money. Don't buy into that crap of returns for 'long term planning'. 
It never served anyone but the banks.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

mutant guppie said:


> Skies the limit. Better than 10%, better than 90% better than what the pro's have done last year


Cool!
Care to share your investing stories and strategies.

Thanks


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## stinsont (May 29, 2009)

I think it is going to be tougher to turn a profit in 2010 than it was in 2009. I had a return of 35% in my US stocks in 2009. But the bulls ran the show most of the year and the DOW rose +60% from the low. This is not going to happen again - would be nice but unlikely.

Point is that it was easy to pick stocks in 2009 and make $$. Will not be as easy in 2010.


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## mutant guppie (Jan 13, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Cool!
> Care to share your investing stories and strategies.


You've already heard the cliche many times I'm sure. I'm retired now. It doesn't take 30 years of investment time to get to a point where you can retire. I did it in 4. From your other posts, you're a healthy skeptic, but seem to resent the ones who have found other ways of investing and got there in shorter time....


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## mutant guppie (Jan 13, 2010)

stinsont said:


> Point is that it was easy to pick stocks in 2009 and make $$. Will not be as easy in 2010.


Yep, it'll be a bit tricky finding those lil ponies with heart, just be sure to stop out when it show's signs of the V U W formation, supposedly in the last half of the year.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

mutant guppie said:


> You've already heard the cliche many times I'm sure. I'm retired now. It doesn't take 30 years of investment time to get to a point where you can retire. I did it in 4.


My congratulations.
And all I'm asking you for is to share some ideas, investing strategy and approaches.
I'm not resenting your success at all, in fact, celebrating it with you.
And since you decided to share your success with all of us on this forum, I think we deserve to know a little bit of how you did it in 4 years.

Thanks


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## mutant guppie (Jan 13, 2010)

*how it was done*

Mix in some ambition, corporate resentment, and breathing out of the box every now and then, and taking that first deep breath before jumping in.

Lets get to it. Read alot of books, made some mistakes. Have a few degrees/ diplomas so no minimum wage job here, although I did have one at one time and it taught me something that I still do to this day. Never stopped learning, and stopped relying on corporation.

dollars in. 

I left a management job and used the settlement + stock (after a 3: 1 split) to fund a new house in booming alberta without IRD in the contract. Projection works i.e. find a guy in your area 5, 10 years older and see if that's where you'd like to be. 

Found solid contract work, and in my spare time found a piece of land (foreclosure). Once the properties were ready, they were flipped for 6 figures total. Liked the expeience and found more properties in bc, ont and flipped that too without realtor. Then put the $$ to use trading the TSX. At the time I liked resources and tech and surfed the volatility looking for lows and highs. So do that for a few years and fast forward to 2008. At the height of the recession, I pulled the cash out and had the presence of mind to wait. The more I waited, the more the market fell. Once it looked stable, I went back in for some range bound trading if I could see a sin wave pattern. I pulled out too if it looked bad before my stop.

By the end of 2008 work was drying up and the companies were asking for reduced wages so I left that too. 

Dollars out 

no credit card/ credit line debt
fee free banking
no vacation
dumped girlfriends who didn't have a handle on spending or asked to borrow money, or were still living with parents or went on vacation.
no gifts, movies, dvds or stupid teenage walmart purchases
ttc to get around. have 13 year old used japanese car now.
no cable tv ( it makes people lazy and stupid)
no monthly payments except for utilities
negotiate purchase price of the properties
negotiate rate with banks
negotiate work with contractors
seat sales on westjet

johnny walker blue label to take the edge off.

So that's how I retired in my 30's.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

mutant guppie said:


> Mix in some ambition, corporate resentment, and breathing out of the box every now and then, and taking that first deep breath before jumping in.
> 
> Lets get to it. Read alot of books, made some mistakes. Have a few degrees/ diplomas so no minimum wage job here, although I did have one at one time and it taught me something that I still do to this day. Never stopped learning, and stopped relying on corporation.
> 
> ...


So, because it is related to another thread, would you say you made most of your $ from working hard and saving your earnings, or from investing your money, or both. Do you have any sense of what % your worth is from each?

Again, congrat's on a 'job' well done.


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## mutant guppie (Jan 13, 2010)

ssimps said:


> you made most of your $ from working hard and saving your earnings, or from investing your money, or both ...


Thanks...

Cash did come from work, but with a twist. I was aggressive with my career. If I didn't get my bonus/raise and exceeded my goals year after year then I'd sit down with my uppers and review my performance and scrutinize their evaluations with a sharp pencil and move on to a 360% review from there ... specifically how their own decisions impacted my performance. If it still didn't change I'd give two weeks notice and take my 4 week vacation. Glad I left the 37.5 hours/ week ontario circus.

As for the savings it was always used to grow itself. The ratios are 1:2.5:4
contract work:realestate investment:trading for 2009, using my last contract from 2008 as base.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

mutant guppie said:


> Thanks...
> 
> Cash did come from work, but with a twist. I was aggressive with my career. If I didn't get my bonus/raise and exceeded my goals year after year then I'd sit down with my uppers and review my performance and scrutinize their evaluations with a sharp pencil and move on to a 360% review from there ... specifically how their own decisions impacted my performance. If it still didn't change I'd give two weeks notice and take my 4 week vacation. Glad I left the 37.5 hours/ week ontario circus.
> 
> ...


Interesting, thanks!


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## steve_jay33 (Aug 29, 2009)

That is interesting.
Mind if I ask what line of work you are in. 

On the original question.
50% of portfolio managers do not beat the market
50% do...and usually not by much.

You have a 1/2 chance of picking a portfolio manager who will beat the market average in the long term. Why take the risk, invest in a low MER index fund and save yourself the trouble.


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

mutant guppie said:


> Mix in some ambition, *corporate resentment*, and breathing out of the box every now and then, and taking that first deep breath before jumping in.
> 
> Lets get to it. Read alot of books, made some mistakes. Have a few degrees/ diplomas so no minimum wage job here, although I did have one at one time and it taught me something that I still do to this day. Never stopped learning, and stopped relying on corporation.
> 
> ...


You, Sir, are pure class, and my new idol

It's been a long week and I need to take the edge off and now I'm craving blue label


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## mutant guppie (Jan 13, 2010)

steve_jay33 said:


> * Mind if I ask what line of work you are in. *
> 
> Background is in engineering technology and worked with a lot of trades. And yourself?
> 
> *Why take the risk, invest in a low MER index fund and save yourself the trouble *.


I focused on the rewards and something like xfn would take to long to get to where I wanted to go. So I found something faster.


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## mutant guppie (Jan 13, 2010)

high octane said:


> You, Sir, are pure class, and my new idol
> 
> It's been a long week and I need to take the edge off and now I'm craving blue label


I'm glad someone thinks so lol.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

You have a gift as some people do and do well in the areas of your gift so good for you. For other people who are gifted in other areas they need to be careful of those gifted in money. An example would be if I was a great speed skater could I teach you on the internet to do the same.

For the other people they need to keep it real for them and not go outside of their comfort zone to try to be you. They do not have the DNA or the gift you do so they need to do their homework.


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

mutant guppie said:


> I'm glad someone thinks so lol.


Drank a quart of Black label in your honor. Had to google Blue Label... damn! That is something to work towards


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## steve_jay33 (Aug 29, 2009)

My comment of "Why take the risk, invest in a low MER index fund and save yourself the trouble " was for the original thread poster mcu.

Anyone who has the time and determination to invest in individual stocks, I would do that.


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