# Ontario wants to double economic immigrants



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Ontario is asking Ottawa to double the number of economic immigrants to the province.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ont-economic-immigrants-1.5398392

It is clear that we need more immigrants and yet the topic of immigration can really set some people off on a rant. Is it just that they are too dumb to realize we need immigrants and can't see beyond the end of their own nose? 

https://business.financialpost.com/...s-why-canada-needs-immigration-and-more-of-it

I always find it ironic that people who are themselves the product of immigration (what Canadian isn't with the exception of indigenous people), want to close the door AFTER their own family has been let in.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I think it is bad timing for the request by Ontario for more "economic" immigrants.

A better option might be for Ontario employers to provide moving expenses to laid off workers in Alberta.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

How much money will they need to bring? I hope they are told the truth about housing costs in Canada.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> It is clear that we need more immigrants and yet the topic of immigration can really set some people off on a rant. Is it just that they are too dumb to realize we need immigrants and can't see beyond the end of their own nose?


What about all the expert predictions that AI will displace 50% of jobs? Now other experts are saying that we need even more people to fill all those jobs that won't cease to exist.

They both can't be right.


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## Tayls77 (Dec 10, 2019)

sags, 100% agree, brought a trade person in from somewhere in Northern Alberta. (can't recall which site he was at). Less money in Ontario but lots of work. Lets take care of ours first, then bring in others as needed. I have had four immigrants that were suppose to be trades people through various sponsored plans and only one worked out, our expectations and their knowledge base just were not the same.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Oh how the extreme views always come to the fore on this topic. Rape and bloodshed, yup that's all down to immigrants.

Sags, why should a worker in Alberta who actually grew up in Nova Scotia, get moving expenses when an immigrant doesn't get moving expenses, they have to pay to get here and are willing to do so? https://correresmidestino.com/how-much-does-immigrating-to-canada-cost/

I have little sympathy for workers in Alberta. Note, I did not say Alberta workers, I said workers in Alberta. The difference is that a great many of them are not 'native Albertans', they are from other provinces and moved to Alberta not because they wanted to live in Alberta but simply for the money. Alberta has always had a boom and bust economy based on oil, there is nothing new in that. I recognized 40 years ago that I would not want to work in Alberta under those circumstances. But I do understand a worker in say Nova Scotia who figures he can go to Alberta make good money for a while and then go home again later on. I don't think the taxpayer should pay for his move either way though.

Prairie Guy, AI cannot replace a framing carpenter employed by a house builder, or a plumber or an electrician, etc. etc. AI can do a pretty good job of replacing assembly line workers though but I don't see them on the Skilled Workers list, do you? https://www.immigration.ca/fast-track-high-demand-occupations


Tayls77, yes not all will work out but really, whose fault is that? If the government programs and the employers do not do a good enough job of assessing the fit of the immigrant to the position, that isn't on the immigrant. They don't know what is wanted of them, you do. Who should fit, 'our expectations and their knowledge base' together? I would suggest you have to communicate your expectations as much as they have to communicate their knowledge base. Of the two, I think it is the employer who has a better grasp of what is needed and should be figuring out how to screen potential workers to get it.

Also, lets' say you need a plumber and no one is applying for the job within Canada. So you bring in a UK Plumber. But their plumbing systems and building practices, etc. etc. are in fact quite different from Canada's. You can't hire a UK plumber and expect to get a Canadian plumber. That is in fact a common issue for immigrants, employers ask for 'Canadian experience'. In other words, they want to hire a Canadian qualified plumber and aren't prepared to invest the time and money to get a UK plumber qualified as a Canadian plumber. That isn't a question of their knowledge being the problem, it is the employer's expectations that are unrealistic and it is a common problem. 
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/canada-immigrant-job-experience-1.4818095

Why is it that someone who has taught say English Literature for 10 years cannot get a job teaching English Literature without 'Canadian experience'? Is it that their knowledge base is a problem? The Canadian government did their job in screening that person based on the person's knowledge of the type of work they were planning to do and that Canada needs but the EMPLOYER then puts various road blocks in the way. Road blocks that suit the employer. 'Oh no Canadian, no scratch that, no Provincial license to teach,no job. It doesn't matter if you are possibly the best English Literature teaching that has ever been born, it isn't about 'can you teach English Literature.' It is about do you fit OUR employment parameters to do so. Canadian employers and especially professional organizations have a lot to answer for in this regard.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

I don't trust the messenger. When you look at who is advocating for more immigration, it's groups like the Conference Board of Canada -- a corporate think tank. There are other groups such as the Century Initiative which are also composed almost entirely of corporate interests. It makes sense that corporations want to see high immigration because it depresses wages and ensures a steady stream of new consumers.

Most Canadians think immigration is already too high. When you consider the pressure on our housing market, education, hospitals, and other infrastructure it's not hard to see why people feel that way.

I wonder how they plan to keep these "economic immigrants" in Ontario? We already have scams like the Quebec Immigrant Investor program, which funnels overseas money into Vancouver's housing market. Most are barely paying any income tax, despite owning multi-million dollar homes.

I would also be skeptical about the future labour market for all these immigrants. I believe that there where be a wave of automation in the wake of the next recession. There will be plenty of unemployed Canadians needing to retrain, so we won't need these immigrants.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Alberta workers...........come on down to Ontario where the bluebirds sing and flowers line the roadsides.

Heavy equipment operator jobs are paying $45 an hour in Toronto. Seek out the union seal of approval.


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

don't see this happening under a Ford leadership. Unless he means USA immigrants? :excitement:


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

^???

It is Ford's Minster Vic Fedeli who, on behalf of the Ford Government, wants this.

There is in fact a shortage of skilled worker...in certain highly skilled trades.

Tradespeople can easily get themselves from one part of the country to another. But some do not for different reasons. We knew of single tradespeople and college grads who were working low end, low paying jobs in Peterborough and area who would not move to Alberta even when offered high paying job in their field. Did not want to move away from moma and their high school/college drinking buddies. They seemed content to earn $14 plus it gave them the opportunity to complain about their lives and blame their situation on everyone else...including the Government.

Besides, immigration is good for our economy. These target folks are self starters, they are motivated to move their lives forward. Not complacent nor do they take things for granted like some of our own. No sense of entitlement either. We need ambitious, go forward folks. They create jobs.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Why do we need economic immigrants when we have an unemployment rate of 5.9%? GM shut down their Oshawa plant today adding 3000 more to the unemployment rolls. As others have pointed out, this seems to be another ploy to beat down the working class and force them to accept low wages and bad working conditions or replace them with immigrants that will.

And, I don't wish to be mean but when I read the crime news these highly educated, ambitious, well behaved, hard working immigrants you speak of seem to be conspicuous by their absence.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

It is really simple. The unemployment numbers are not split out job skills. 

There are some serious shortages of highly skilled people. Employers are actively looking overseas to fill these positions. Highly trained and/or highly educated. Clearly, the Government is doing this at the behest of industry. In some instances the reason is straightforward. Baby boomers are retired and there are not enough skill people in certain jobs to replace them.

As an example, there is a huge difference between the skills of someone on an assembly line Oshawa and a highly trained, highly skillled tool and die maker with extensive computer skills and experience. In at least one hospital that I know of is actively searching overseas for neurosurgeons. There are shortages of skilled people in selective segments of the IT industry. The list goes on. Simply do a google and see what pops up.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> Why is it that someone who has taught say English Literature for 10 years cannot get a job teaching English Literature without 'Canadian experience'? Is it that their knowledge base is a problem? The Canadian government did their job in screening that person based on the person's knowledge of the type of work they were planning to do and that Canada needs but the EMPLOYER then puts various road blocks in the way. Road blocks that suit the employer. 'Oh no Canadian, no scratch that, no Provincial license to teach,no job. It doesn't matter if you are possibly the best English Literature teaching that has ever been born, it isn't about 'can you teach English Literature.' It is about do you fit OUR employment parameters to do so. Canadian employers and especially professional organizations have a lot to answer for in this regard.


 Yes the Employer is not pulling their weight. The employer has no right to make money unlike the employee that will get paid @ least min wage, stat holiday pay for no work done, The employer is just bad they only provide work for those that are not productive enough to work for themselves.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> Prairie Guy, AI cannot replace a framing carpenter employed by a house builder, or a plumber or an electrician, etc. etc. AI can do a pretty good job of replacing assembly line workers though but I don't see them on the Skilled Workers list, do you? https://www.immigration.ca/fast-track-high-demand-occupations
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 The chain saw replaced Paul Bunyan. The Framing carpenter is no match for 3D printing


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> Oh how the extreme views always come to the fore on this topic. Rape and bloodshed, yup that's all down to immigrants.


 LTA if you want to live in a sh t hole maybe go to California where human sh t has now become a problem on the streets from mass immigration. Canada does not really have a boarder people from backwards countries can just walk across. There is a reason some backwards countries are a mess if they bring their backward ways here do you really think it will make Canada prosperous ?

If the Jolly Green Giant was to pick you up & drop you in some of these backwards countries i.e., the middle east the people their would literally kill you. Major brain wave invite them here.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The closing of GM Oshawa includes a lot more than unskilled "assembly workers". Auto assembly plants are full of skilled trades needed to keep the plant functioning.

The list from the factory floor includes........electricians, fork lift mechanics, painters, millwrights, welders, plumbers.......

The list from the front offices includes........engineers, accountants, lawyers, public relations administrators, nurses, safety experts, robotic technicians, and top level plant managers.

Then there are the Tier II supplier plants that will also be affected, which also employ a large number of trades people. I believe they employ 7 workers in support of each assembly job.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

lonewolf :) said:


> Yes the Employer is not pulling their weight. The employer has no right to make money unlike the employee that will get paid @ least min wage, stat holiday pay for no work done, The employer is just bad they only provide work for those that are not productive enough to work for themselves.


Yes....and if it were not for all those employees working for the owner, they wouldn't make any money either.

It is a balance and all employees usually ask for is a "fair day's pay for a fair day's work".


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I have no doubt that there are/were many skilled workers at the GM Oshawa and feeder plants.

That does not change the reality. Canada currently has a shortage of skilled workers and professionals in certain sectors, certain occupations. And the shortage is expected to get worse. This is no doubt the reason for Vic Fedeli's request. Other Provinces are doing the same. It is a concern that has been moving up the chain from business to Government for some time. The writing has been on the wall for 5-8 years, longer in some sectors., People chose to ignore it.

It is no secret. It is a result of our changing economy and the massive baby boomer retirement numbers-current and forecast over the next five years.

My spouse had very delicate neurosurgery early this year. The surgeon, one of the best in the city, immigrated to Canada from 'the middle east'. We were very thankful that he did. His assisting surgeon was of South Asian 
heritage.

https://www.bdc.ca/en/documents/analysis_research/labour-shortage.pdf

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...ed-workers-is-hurting-growth/article37848454/

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/bus...-shortage-but-which-skills-and-where-lack-of/

https://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/local-chamber-acts-to-address-skills-mismatch


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The rhetoric doesn't match the reality. Unless a person is a member of a trades union, the wages will be low and the work seasonal.

The jobs being created in private industry are invariably low paid service sector jobs, and are often part time or contract work. 

There is a good reason these employers continually struggle to find and retain workers.

Skilled trades is a broad category and isn't the same as "professionals" such as a doctor. 

I think if there was further examination, many of the requests for foreign labor is coming from the usual suspects.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

I read in the Economist that immigration to Canada (numbers of immigrants) will exceed those entering the US.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I am not opposed to immigration, but it seems that any time the natural labor conditions may restore the equilibrium between wages and labour, employers want the government to provide them with foreign workers. Wages have fallen well behind where they should be in 2019 and are the main reason that Canadians are so deeply indebted.

I would not oppose bringing in more doctors or other specified professions or skilled trades, but to bring in low paid contract service workers to keep wages low......sorry.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I agree, foreign workers are used to depress wages.

I've seen this first hand in the US, most clearly at Intel (just because I know the situation well). What happens is that Intel aggressively hires technical workers from India, and they're in the US on visas. These people are paid very well so that's not a problem in itself, but the issue is more subtle: the Indian workers are desperate to keep their jobs. There is the implied threat of being fired, losing the visa and being sent back to India.

Intel, and many other big corporations, love having that threat hanging over the heads of foreign workers. It results in a more obedient and compliant workforce who asks fewer questions and demands fewer rights. They're just happy to be in the Americas, and are quite afraid of losing their jobs.

Whenever I hear of businesses complaining that "they can't find enough qualified workers in the country and need more foreign workers", I know they're just trying to find more desperate people that they can exert more control over.

In other words, they say "qualified" but they really mean "desperate and obedient".

American/Canadian citizens, domestic workers, are less afraid of losing their jobs. This makes them more bold, and they can freely demand more.

Obviously that is not something that employers enjoy.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Yup.......since when are Conservatives eager to bring in immigrants ?

The last time I remember is the Harper government using false data to bring in foreign workers. That sham was exposed and closed due to the public outrage.

It looks like Conservatives want to set it up again.


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

sags said:


> Yup.......since when are Conservatives eager to bring in immigrants ?
> 
> The last time I remember is the Harper government using false data to bring in foreign workers. That sham was exposed and closed due to the public outrage.
> 
> It looks like Conservatives want to set it up again.


Exactly. That's what I ment in post #10.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

dubmac said:


> I read in the Economist that immigration to Canada (numbers of immigrants) will exceed those entering the US.


There must be some cavaet missing or some misunderstanding.

The Homeland Security web site says that in 2017, there were 1.1 million immigrants to the US where Canadian immigration was reported to be about 272K. The increased Canadian target of 340K leaves a lot of buffer, unless one believes US immigration is going to crash dramatically.


Cheers


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Eclectic12 said:


> There must be some cavaet missing or some misunderstanding.
> 
> The Homeland Security web site says that in 2017, there were 1.1 million immigrants to the US where Canadian immigration was reported to be about 272K. The increased Canadian target of 340K leaves a lot of buffer, unless one believes US immigration is going to crash dramatically.
> 
> ...


Might be referring to economic migrants? I think we bring in more than they do, but not sure.
Maybe it was referring to immigrants as a % of the population in which case, we're about double what the US does.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> There must be some cavaet missing or some misunderstanding.
> 
> The Homeland Security web site says that in 2017, there were 1.1 million immigrants to the US where Canadian immigration was reported to be about 272K. The increased Canadian target of 340K leaves a lot of buffer, unless one believes US immigration is going to crash dramatically.
> 
> ...


oops the article refers to the resettlement of refugees.

Dec 7th - 13th, Britian's Nightmare beofre Christmas Edition. p. 35. United Sates Refugees Policy - denying opportunities costs.
_
"America did not settle a single refugee in October. In November it admitted under 1,500, the fourth lowest totla for that month since the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks. A new federal cap imposes a limit of 18,000 to be resettled next year, down from 85,000 in 2016. Canada now welcomes more than its more populous neighbour"_


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

dubmac said:


> oops the article refers to the resettlement of refugees.
> 
> Dec 7th - 13th, Britian's Nightmare beofre Christmas Edition. p. 35. United Sates Refugees Policy - denying opportunities costs.
> _
> "America did not settle a single refugee in October. In November it admitted under 1,500, the fourth lowest totla for that month since the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks. A new federal cap imposes a limit of 18,000 to be resettled next year, down from 85,000 in 2016. Canada now welcomes more than its more populous neighbour"_


Actually, that provides a good example of many people not understanding the difference between an immigrant and a refugee. I have noticed news readers frequently using the wrong terms when referring to various groups of refugees and immigrants. Not that I expect news readers to be any more knowledgeable than the average Canadian even though in their job, they should be.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> Actually, that provides a good example of many people not understanding the difference between an immigrant and a refugee. I have noticed news readers frequently using the wrong terms when referring to various groups of refugees and immigrants. Not that I expect news readers to be any more knowledgeable than the average Canadian even though in their job, they should be.


The most abused wrong term (lie) is "undocumented immigrant". They are not undocumented immigrants, they are illegal aliens.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Aliens are foreign to this earth.... from infinity and beyond.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> Aliens are foreign to this earth.... from infinity and beyond.


Yes they are. There are also human illegal aliens. As per Webster dictionary:

Definition of illegal alien
: a foreign person who lives in a country without having official permission to live there


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

"Illegal Alien" is in the Webster Dictionary because it was an often used term that was considered acceptable language in the past.

Today, it is considered an affront to immigrants/refugees and it's use is banned in some places like New York City, where the fine is up to $250,000.

Society used to use a lot of words that are no longer considered socially acceptable, including the "N" word. They are contained in Websters for historical reference only.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/******


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Yes sags..we all know the left likes to ban words they deem inappropriate or just inconvenient for their agenda. Immigrants and refugees shouldn't find the term illegal alien inappropriate because they don't fall under that category. The N word has been unacceptable for decades, so not sure why you feel it necessary to bring that up unless you're trying to make your weak argument stronger.

Maybe New York city can sue Webster. I'd love to see how that plays out in court :biggrin:


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