# Summer gas prices



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This is starting to look ugly. Vancouver now has (I believe) the highest gasoline prices ever on record at $1.59

By not raising interest rates to where they should be, the Bank of Canada weakened the CAD, which drives up the price of these commodities. At the same time we're getting a bullish phase in commodities (oil, gasoline). From what I can tell, gasoline prices in Canada quite accurately track the US-traded gasoline contract (NYMEX RBOB). There are local tax effects but the general price movements are based on the commodity price, and therefore the USD/CAD exchange rate has a big effect.

What do you think... will gas prices keep rising into the summer? Or is this a blip?

The Bank of Canada could alleviate this by raising rates and strengthening the CAD.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I believe there is also uncertainty because of the pipeline dispute which is causing BC to pay more. Uncertainty is always an excuse to raise prices.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Last week in Vancouver we paid $1.50. We paid $ .90 CAD in Bellingham (it was $1. CAD in closer to the border). We paid $1.15 in Calgary, but it was $1.22 when we came home this week.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Portland Oregon gas prices are 3.60 USD per gallon right now = $1.22 per L. That's about the same as Calgary and Winnipeg today.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Report I read says $2 by summer for Vancouver. Highway robbery- literally.


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

I think prices are going up with the summer driving season. 
These prices initially weren't a complete sticker shock to me since I regularly bought 94 octane in the past when I fiddled with my old car's turbo boost. I'm just glad I got rid of that money pit. 
I'm guessing our next car (hopefully 10+ years down the road) is going to be a hybrid/electric.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

Oil supplies are dwindling, the oil price is increasing, the Canadian dollar is falling, taxes are rising, regulation is increasing. 

Is there any factor working to decrease gasoline prices? 

Is there a single political party out there with a policy to lower gasoline prices?

Does anyone care?

Prepare to pay more.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

here you go james http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/poloz-senate-bank-economy-1.4635747?cmp=rss

if rachel notley gets her way then vancouverites will be driving to bellingham to get their gas in long lines i am sure ... though it looks like her bill to stop the flow of gasoline may not be constitutional

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...s-border-alcohol-ruling-could-hit-alberta-in/

but then, wouldn't stopping the flow of alberta's oil also be deemed unconstituional ?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

We're going to be in a world of trouble if this central bank recklessness with 0% interest rates (1.25% is still zero) finally sparks some real inflation and drives commodities up. I'm surprised all their activities so far have not induced inflation. Hopefully my gold will protect me.


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## new dog (Jun 21, 2016)

Of course we are also in the change over season for refineries from winter to summer which doesn't help.

However this will hopefully be good for people living in the lower mainland on how much we need energy. This is also bad for the NDP because people are not liking how the NDP doesn't seem to care about consumers hurting from high prices. This is also how the NDP always goes down in the end as the real world bites tax buyers in the *** and voters realize you need an economy that produces something. Voters also get the clear message that giving away money for nothing, has a cost to it.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I still don't understand the rationale for blaming specific political parties for prices which come from the large, North American commodities market. The US gasoline spot price is up more than 30% (in USD) over the last year. Of course the price at the pump in Canada will go up too.

In the last 3 months: spot gasoline NYMEX RBOB is up 10%. The USD is up 4%. Therefore the spot gasoline price in CAD is up 14%.

And I don't recall anyone crediting a political party when the gasoline spot price plummeted. For a long time we had extremely low prices at the pumps.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Right James. I checked the gas prices in Sumas, WA compared to Abbotsford, BC... and the difference is only $15-20 CAD on a 60 litre fill up - that's a completely normal difference. So it's not the NDP or Alberta causing this. It's the weak dollar and other factors you mention.


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## new dog (Jun 21, 2016)

The NDP is creating uncertainty on this issue and uncertainty is always an issue with stocks and the stock market. I should add their friends as in environmentalists and such also add to this uncertainty.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

doctrine said:


> Oil supplies are dwindling, the oil price is increasing, the Canadian dollar is falling, taxes are rising, regulation is increasing.
> 
> Is there any factor working to decrease gasoline prices?
> 
> ...


Agreed. Apparently nobody wants Canada to be self-sufficient in oil and have pipelines built. Insane.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

My Own Advisor said:


> Agreed. Apparently nobody wants Canada to be self-sufficient in oil and have pipelines built. Insane.


Insane is right. We read of countries like Norway with their big sovereign fund, good standard of life where the countries riches in oil are celebrated by citizens. 

Here for some bizarre reason many of us are opposed to utilizing the natural resource treasures the world needs and we are blessed with. 

This country needs a huge reset button. 

Re gasoline costs I watched a industry watchdog about 2 weeks ago say prices would be approx 35 cents/l higher this summer than they were then.


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## new dog (Jun 21, 2016)

Gasoline prices seem to get people angrier then anything else. A huge price shock is what is needed, making this the biggest issue out there and the voting public will demand answers as well as solutions. Otherwise we are going to continue getting this slow burn that people eventually adjust to and nothing gets done.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Last time the gas prices were this high oil was at ~$100 a barrel and we are not even at $70 now .... someone is making a good profit here!


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

My Own Advisor said:


> Agreed. Apparently nobody wants Canada to be self-sufficient in oil and have pipelines built. Insane.


?? ... Canada has refined more oil than it uses for years.

Pipelines, other than the ones proposed for export - might help with dealing with the regional shortages but either way, the stats say we already are self-sufficient with a distribution problem instead of a refining volume problem.


Cheers


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## new dog (Jun 21, 2016)

Cainvest I am sure there is profit being made here but there are still all these other issues going on that has just snuck up on us and bit in. I am sure all the things like electic12 just said and issues that probably needed addressing many years ago is now becoming very noticeable. Vancouver especially needs a long term plan on energy and transportation like mass transit and such that will put us in a good position in the longer term.

I would think good long term planning in most cities is actually what needs to be focused on. Unfortunately no one cares much for the long term and it is only short term pain that gets all the attention. It is the same with money and investing with most people usually more concerned about today and don't seem to think about the future very much.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

cainvest said:


> Last time the gas prices were this high oil was at ~$100 a barrel and we are not even at $70 now .... someone is making a good profit here!


Those are USD. In canadian dollars, oil is not much cheaper now than it was 5 years ago.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

Keep in mind our oil is sold at a discount around 25.00


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## WGZ (Feb 3, 2017)

RBull said:


> Insane is right. We read of countries like Norway with their big sovereign fund, good standard of life where the countries riches in oil are celebrated by citizens.
> 
> Here for some bizarre reason many of us are opposed to utilizing the natural resource treasures the world needs and we are blessed with.
> 
> ...


Exactly this. We're spoiled, a long time living sheltered by the biggest superpower the world's ever known (the U.S.) while in our comfortable soap bubble lives.

There's countries that in a second would kill to have the amount of resources and vast land our country has, and yet we squander it because this country is divided by groups with conflicting interests, and no government or political party that has any beliefs or policies based in reality.

The lowest military funding of the G7 - 0.6% of the GDP? Guess we don't need national defense either. If we were to be invaded and occupied, they'd probably just waltz in and establish base camps in all our useless waste of money hockey arenas.

An absolute joke this country is, it's actually embarrassing to even say I'm from here knowing how pathetically weak it is. Everything it needs to be powerful and prosperous, and yet it gets squandered. Political parties, news media, and government that spends more time virtue signalling than doing anything actually meaningful and productive.

Police forces here sure are well equipped to eagerly hunt us down to give us fines though. And yeah, siphon more out of taxpayers who are becoming increasingly pissed off.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

When does the new carbon tax kick in?


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Vancouver prices break all-time record for North America:

https://globalnews.ca/news/4176371/vancouver-gas-price-record-2/


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

If someone is convinced that gas prices will be going higher this summer, they could buy UGA (an ETF that tracks gasoline) as a hedge. Just beware that it does not perfectly track the raw commodity. UGA is up 38% from a year ago.

That would be speculating on commodity prices though.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

No better investment than just watching BC wallow in their own hypocrisy. Priceless...


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

james4beach said:


> If someone is convinced that gas prices will be going higher this summer, they could buy UGA (an ETF that tracks gasoline) as a hedge. Just beware that it does not perfectly track the raw commodity. UGA is up 38% from a year ago.
> 
> That would be speculating on commodity prices though.


My comment would be that it's getting late for the trade. Oil prices usually peak out around June, and that's only really 4-5 weeks away. Gas prices are probably already at about the highest they will be until summer.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

> Insane is right. We read of countries like Norway with their big sovereign fund, good standard of life where the countries riches in oil are celebrated by citizens.
> 
> Here for some bizarre reason many of us are opposed to utilizing the natural resource treasures the world needs and we are blessed with.
> 
> This country needs a huge reset button.





WGZ said:


> Exactly this. We're spoiled, a long time living sheltered by the biggest superpower the world's ever known (the U.S.) while in our comfortable soap bubble lives.
> 
> There's countries that in a second would kill to have the amount of resources and vast land our country has, and yet we squander it because this country is divided by groups with conflicting interests, and no government or political party that has any beliefs or policies based in reality.
> 
> ...


Norway has extremely high taxes. Alberta could have a had a sovereign wealth fund, but they thought keeping taxes low was more important. So you could say they squandered it, but really they just did what voters wanted... which was keep taxes low and use oil revenues to make up for it.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

doctrine said:


> My comment would be that it's getting late for the trade. Oil prices usually peak out around June, and that's only really 4-5 weeks away. Gas prices are probably already at about the highest they will be until summer.


Yup, and prices should come down once those refineries in WA ramp up production after their scheduled maintenance is complete.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

nathan79 said:


> Norway has extremely high taxes. Alberta could have a had a sovereign wealth fund, but they thought keeping taxes low was more important. So you could say they squandered it, but really they just did what voters wanted... which was keep taxes low and use oil revenues to make up for it.


Last I checked, Norway doesnt have an equalization program for deadbeat provinces like Quebec who then block access to world markets for the product. $11 billion dollars a year times 50 years equals a pretty nice sovereign wealth fund.


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## new dog (Jun 21, 2016)

https://globalnews.ca/news/4176371/vancouver-gas-price-record-2/

It is hilarious the way BC people pay attention and are showing more support for pipelines after gas prices rise substantially.

If gas prices were low and environmentalists are saying we should get rid of fossil fuels and reject all pipelines then people are all for it. Once prices rise enough and people realize they have to pay for it their opinion changes. So many dumb people living in Vancouver.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

People who complain about gasoline prices compared to some other place in the world ignore the fact that much of the retail price is taxes. See this article on that subject. http://theprovince.com/news/canada/...sive/wcm/8049826f-50c3-4d06-950b-0a3f3b0e8f79

Vancouver apparently has a 17 cents/litre municipal tax on gasoline to pay for public transport.

The effect of CDN/US exchange rate on cost of oil and refined products is ignored.

Simple inflation is ignored, so comparing prices to what they were 10-20 years ago is irrelevant unless you adjust for CPI.

Due to a lack of refining capacity in BC, and a shortage of pipeline capacity from Alberta (isn't that ironic), BC is having to import gasoline from the US to meet peak demands. See http://www.oilsandsmagazine.com/news/2016/3/03/why-vancouver-desperately-needs-a-new-oil-refinery for an article on this.


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## new dog (Jun 21, 2016)

Taxes, Canadian dollar to US dollar, lack of refineries and inflation are very big factors for sure. The carbon tax fraud is also a factor. Of course you need to go back 15 years or so to where adding refinery capacity might have made sense but people only think of the now so here we are.

Water is another issue as Vancouver enters restrictions when a bigger then enormous amount of water is spilling into the ocean. Something is wrong with this picture.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Ford in the US announced they aren't going to manufacture cars anymore. Everyone is buying SUV, crossovers and trucks.

Our son traded in his 2 year old truck for a new SUV. He broke even on his truck and the dealer is sending it to the US. 

Bottom line.........the Americans at least don't seem too disturbed about gas prices.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I should note though, that I remember a time in my past when I was sitting with other GM employees listening to the head executives tell us that big trucks were the big thing and they didn't care about small car design because few people wanted them and there was no profit in them. GM put all their efforts into big vehicles..............and then gas prices spiked and GM couldn't give big vehicles away.

This is eerily similar to getting back to those days of big vehicles, big prices and big profits. I hope it doesn't end the same way.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

Why should BC worry about gas prices? I thought they are all transitioning to the post fossil fuel age where everyone commutes on bikes and has solar panels in the part of the country with the least amount of sun and sing kumbya up in the trees?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

new dog said:


> Taxes, Canadian dollar to US dollar, *lack of refineries* and inflation are very big factors for sure ...


It's where the refineries are located, what they handle and what transportation is available that is the problem as Canada has refined more than is used for years.




sags said:


> Ford in the US announced they aren't going to manufacture cars anymore. Everyone is buying SUV, crossovers and trucks ...
> Bottom line.........the Americans at least don't seem too disturbed about gas prices.


Is this a surprise when a Niagara Falls NY gas station will take delivery of gas from Canada to sell for $0.885 a litre where costs $1.29 in Niagara Falls Canada?
If you are in Texas, you may be looking at $0.754 a litre. If in California, it's $1.04 a litre.


Cheers


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

The OP started with a story about prices in Lower mainland BC. Once upon a time BC had 4 refineries, now they only have 1. They have been importing refined products from Alberta, but now due to limited pipeline capacity they are having to buy some from the US. And then there are the taxes.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

new dog said:


> Taxes, Canadian dollar to US dollar, lack of refineries and inflation are very big factors for sure. The carbon tax fraud is also a factor. Of course you need to go back 15 years or so to where adding refinery capacity might have made sense but people only think of the now so here we are.
> 
> Water is another issue as Vancouver enters restrictions when a bigger then enormous amount of water is spilling into the ocean. Something is wrong with this picture.



The oil companies shut down two refineries in BC many years ago to consolidate production elsewhere it had nothing to do with the people of BC.

Water is not an issue in Vancouver we have three major sources the cost of treating the water and delivering it is the issue.
This year we have a snow pack sitting at 150% its important for flood control to release.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

tygrus said:


> Why should BC worry about gas prices? I thought they are all transitioning to the post fossil fuel age where everyone commutes on bikes and has solar panels in the part of the country with the least amount of sun and sing kumbya up in the trees?


LOL.:biggrin-new:


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## KaoruChiwa (May 21, 2017)

omg so expensive


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Canadians are buying more trucks and SUVs as well. The sales outnumber small cars 2-1.

The new SUVs are more fuel efficient than years ago, and people are willing to pay more for the gas to have more room, comfort and safety.

Personally, I think immigrants tend to have larger families and it may also be a factor.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/small-cars-trucks-suvs-1.4644725


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

^ I wonder if part of that can be attributed to the rising cost of insurance. In the past, many families would own two vehicles. It's logical to have a small, fuel-efficient car for your daily commute or getting groceries and truck for when you need to haul something. But with the cost of insurance going through the roof, many find it hard to justify owning more than one vehicle. Even though modern trucks and SUVs are getting more efficient, they are never going to be as efficient as an equivalent small sedan. So you can thank insurance companies (and accident prone drivers) for contributing to climate change by making it cost prohibitive to drive the appropriate vehicle for each situation.


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## tored (May 15, 2018)

Holy smokes. That would convert to about $6/gallon for US drivers. US drivers would go crazy at $6/gallon


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Earlier people were complaining about high gas prices... how about now? I see the national average is way down. From the gasbuddy chart, today's average Canadian price is now *lower than during all of 2012, 2013.*

I really don't see how gas prices are hurting anyone if we've gone 6 years with no price increase. Negative rate of gas price change, less than the inflation rate. See https://www.gasbuddy.com/Charts

In Winnipeg, the price is around $1 /L which is the same as 2009 ... that's nil change at the pumps over 9 years!!

And in BC: I'm curious to hear if people still want to scapegoat the NDP for this. Since the NDP was apparently responsible for the high gas prices, then clearly they must now be responsible for the low gas prices -- right?

Only the NDP could accomplish this, keeping gas prices low, virtually unchanged over 6 years for the good of consumers and hard working taxpayers.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

Right. Gas is still $1.30-$1.40 a liter in BC. Is that cheap? BC NDP and Greens have been constantly increasing gasoline taxes. That is why it is 20-30% more expensive than the rest of the country. They are still responsible for the high gas prices, even if they are down because oil is down 25% in 6 weeks.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

doctrine said:


> Right. Gas is still $1.30-$1.40 a liter in BC. Is that cheap? BC NDP and Greens have been constantly increasing gasoline taxes. That is why it is 20-30% more expensive than the rest of the country. They are still responsible for the high gas prices


Using the gasbuddy chart, here is the 2 year price change per province. Going from west to east, 2 year price change:

BC +23%
AB +35%
SK +31%
MB +25%
ON +15%
QC +13%
Average of AB,SK,MB,ON,QC = +24%

BC's gas prices increase of +23% was less than the +24% average of the other provinces, *and significantly less increase than neighbouring provinces.*

On what basis are you claiming that the current government is responsible, when the BC price increase was relatively less than the neighbouring provinces? If anything it looks like the current government has depressed the price of gasoline.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

james4beach said:


> In Winnipeg, the price is around $1 /L which is the same as 2009 ... that's nil change at the pumps over 9 years!!


Last time I looked, regular was $1.03/L in Kingston, On. So almost same. But today, $1.15/L ?????? 
Contact in Oklahoma said price there was $1.99/gal a few days ago That's about C$0.68/L

James, maybe try this. Assume an owner uses ~2000L of fuel per year or 40L per weekly fillup. Look up historical prices and calculate Total cost he would have paid for fuel if he or she filled up once a week. Then calculate the average. Would that be higher or lower than $1/L?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> ... I really don't see how gas prices are hurting anyone if we've *gone 6 years with no price increase* ...


Trouble is ... I have to buy when I need gas so I can't cherry pick the times when the prices are lower than the ones you are choosing.

Case in point ... while it's great to buy now for $0.94 / L, as little as six weeks ago, it was more like $1.27 / L that had to be paid.




james4beach said:


> ... In Winnipeg, the price is around $1 /L which is the same as 2009 ... that's *nil change at the pumps over 9 years!!*


If there's been no change, I wonder who the people who paid $1.29 through $1.35 over several years can complain to?


As I say ... looking at selected points where the price varies above and below may skew one's estimation of cost.


Cheers


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

doctrine said:


> Right. Gas is still $1.30-$1.40 a liter in BC. Is that cheap? BC NDP and Greens have been constantly increasing gasoline taxes. That is why it is 20-30% more expensive than the rest of the country. They are still responsible for the high gas prices, even if they are down because oil is down 25% in 6 weeks.


Constantly? I think they increased the carbon tax by one cent... you know, the same carbon tax the Liberals introduced and increased to 7 cents/litre before the NDP even came into power.

115.9 at Costco in Abbotsford... not bad. If you're in Vancouver and still paying 1.40, then blame Translink and the mayors council for your high gas taxes, not the NDP.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

Wow, thanks everyone. You have convinced me I should be thanking the NDP government for paying $1.40 a liter for gas, because I could be paying much more. You know, like the $1.03 in Ontario, or $0.99 in Alberta. Thanks NDP!


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

doctrine said:


> Wow, thanks everyone. You have convinced me I should be thanking the NDP government for paying $1.40 a liter for gas, because I could be paying much more. You know, like the $1.03 in Ontario, or $0.99 in Alberta. Thanks NDP!


It was $1.44 in Campbell River 2 days ago, down from a recent $1.49. Thanks NDP!


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

doctrine said:


> Wow, thanks everyone. You have convinced me I should be thanking the NDP government for paying $1.40 a liter for gas, because I could be paying much more. You know, like the $1.03 in Ontario, or $0.99 in Alberta. Thanks NDP!


No provincial government is going to give you a tax break on gas. Were the BC Liberals offering to reduce the carbon tax in 2014 when gas was at record highs of 1.50 a litre? (By the way that's $1.59 adjusted for inflation)


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

doctrine said:


> Wow, thanks everyone. You have convinced me I should be thanking the NDP government for paying $1.40 a liter for gas, because I could be paying much more. You know, like the $1.03 in Ontario, or $0.99 in Alberta. Thanks NDP!


If you have a political leaning that requires you to blame them, then you're going to find a way to blame them no matter what they do.

As I showed you, gas prices in BC have gone up relatively less than other western provinces. I agree that the overall tax level is higher in BC gas (that part is obvious), but I don't see any evidence that it has gotten significantly worse in the recent year or two.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

nathan79 said:


> No provincial government is going to give you a tax break on gas. Were the BC Liberals offering to reduce the carbon tax in 2014 when gas was at record highs of 1.50 a litre? (By the way that's $1.59 adjusted for inflation)


No, but you must know that the previous Liberal government applied 100% of the carbon tax to personal and corporate tax reductions.

One of the very first moves by the NDP government was to remove the revenue neutral provisions, turning the carbon tax into a true tax that would no longer be refunded to taxpayers. They immediately started increasing the carbon tax, as well as the personal income tax rates, the corporate tax rates, and about a dozen other new taxes or "revenue-generation streams". 

Therefore, there is a very real increase to the tax and the tax burden on BC taxpayers. If you agree with the NDP spending more money, you may be on board, but you cannot say with a straight face that the NDP are somehow in any way shape or form responsible for decreasing the price of anything.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I thought BC had some of the lowest personal income taxes in Canada for the middle class. Using https://simpletax.ca/calculator and inputting 80k gross employment income,

BC: 60,750 after tax income
AB: 59,416
SK: 58,133
MB: 56,466
ON: 59,524
QC: 55,254

In fact, in this sample BC has the lowest personal income taxes. doctrine you sure seem to have a lot of complaints, despite BC having less gasoline price increases than average, and having lower personal income taxes (for middle class) than average.

It looks to me that, compared to other provinces, that middle class people in BC have had a better time both on taxes & gasoline


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

Your statistics are amusing. Because of the now-dead revenue neutral carbon tax, that gap was actually higher and it is now only going in one direction, and doesn't account for all of the new non-income taxes that have been introduced and are not accounted for in your chart. We also have many more years of NDP tax increases ahead of us, whereas in some places, such as Ontario, the taxes are going down. Just because it's "not as bad" as other places, is no reason to sit back and take the beatings with a smile. It was better. It is getting worse. This is just the beginning.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Maybe BC currently has lower income tax, but in the years I have been here, all governments - SoCred, NDP, Liberal, whatever, have all been astute at finding more ways to tax and to extract more. So I won't blame NDP for anything, because any other government would be just as bad and taking care of themselves and their close allies. It is why I refuse to vote in elections. Nothing will change. Why let those gangsters think I approve of any of them? Sure, they can tinker with taxes - lower one and create or raise another, but no government ever takes less.

Let's take just one of hundreds of examples of how governments in BC have really cashed in at the taxpayers' expense. The property transfer tax.

When I first started doing conveyancing in BC, that tax was calculated on the purchase price thus:

1/10 of 1%, plus the number of 10,000s divided by 2, plus $19.

So, for my first Vancouver house purchase for $70,000, I paid:

1/10 of 1% = $70.00
plus 7 ÷ 2 = 3.50
plus $19 = 19.00
Total..... 82.50

Fast forward to today. That same house is assessed by the province at $2.4 million.

The transfer tax is now:

1% on the first $200,000 = $2,000
2% on portion greater than $200,000 and up to and including $2,000,000 = $36,000
3% on the excess of $400,000 = $12,000

Total tax = $50,000. 

That's quite a jump from 1976. I have not taken the time to check on the BoC inflation calculator, but I think $50,000 today is more than $82.50 in 1976, when adjusted for inflation. The tax under the original formula would be 1/10 of 1% = $2,400, plus 240 ÷ 2 = $120 + $19, for a total of $2,539.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Taxes across the entire west coast, including the US, are up over the last few decades. It's not BC specific.

Higher general levels of taxes are due to so many other effects, such as infrastructure needs, effects of population growth, and strong public systems and social services. There is a reason BC, and further south, WA, OR, CA are very nice places to live and work. One of the reason all these places are great to live in that the populations, through taxes, maintain their societies very well and are willing to provide public services that benefit life.

Mukhang pera, you're a highly educated lawyer. Surely you know the kinds of things those tax dollars are paying for, and surely you know that the tax increases aren't specific to BC.

What's the alternative to paying high taxes? Try the US midwest, which generally is pretty inexpensive and also has low property taxes. But... here's the important part... look carefully and you'll notice that people flee the midwest, and go to ... you guessed it ... nicer places such as the coasts.

When you're living in a nice place, you're going to get high taxes. Those taxes pay for important things that you want and need. These politicians you flippantly refer to as gangsters have worked hard to help keep the province working well, providing all kinds of public systems. They have helped shape your province and helped make it a good place to live.

Big picture, my impression is that Canada overall, and BC, provide great value for the taxes paid. Many Canadian provinces have tax levels that are quite low (BC, AB, ON) even versus the US, and yet provide amazingly high levels of public services and systems. I have friends and family across these provinces, and also within the US. To me, it's no contest... Canada is kicking *** on value provided for tax levels. In fact I will be leaving the US and returning to Canada partly due to this reason; I've seen both, and Canada wins.

Complaining about taxes is a popular pastime, especially for conservatives. How about spending some time recognizing the benefits of living in a place that's well maintained and very nice, supported by taxes? How about recognizing that a big reason your home(s) have risen so much in value, making you exceedingly rich, is that you live in a well-functioning, well-managed province with a solid economy and low crime rate, with many desirable aspects that are supported by taxes?


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

james4beach,

I was not at all suggesting that BC is alone in the tax-gouging business. It is endemic to all levels of government in every province and the federal government. I mentioned BC in particular because you suggested that BC income tax is a bargain. I'll accept that as true, but what counts is the overall tax burden for citizens. If BC cheaps out on income tax, it will make it ip elsewhere.

I'll accept that we have to pay for government services, infrastructure, etc., but what gets my goat is waste and politicians lining their own pockets at taxpayers' expense. There are endless examples of this, most of which are probably hidden from taxpayers. Take, for eg. the $10 million payouts to the likes of Omar Khadr. How about the recent revelation about Adrienne Clarkson? How about politician's wages, benefits and pensions compared to the average worker? I am sure taxpayers know very little about government waste and profiteering. When a tidbit comes to light, we grumble and then get back to the business of earning money to support it all.

You speak of "amazingly high levels of public services and systems", but are they all that amazing compared to when you were a kid? Certainly not compared to when I was a kid. I grew up in Ontario in the 1960s. It was a prosperous and optimistic time. Universities were being built, expanded and funded at a prodigious rate. Anyone who wanted to to university could go, and getting a good job at the other end was a given. Families were able to live well on a single income. Governments were able to provide student loans and grants and one never heard of someone graduating with anything more than a modest debt. My law school tuition was about $700 a year. I could comfortably earn sufficient at a summer job to pay my tuition, rent, food and all other living expenses, including my car, without having to consider a part-time job during the academic year. I recently looked online and was astonished to see that the tuition cost at my alma mater has ballooned to $30,000! That cost, by itself, would be difficult to fund from most summer jobs. If our politicians have worked to hard, as you say, why is it many young Canadians won't have the same opportunities that I did? Why will they have to do as you did and flee to the US to get a job?

When I was a kid in the 60s, lotteries were illegal. Now governments love them. They are cash cows. But where does all that new money go? When I started out in law practice, if I sent out a bill for $1,000, it was $1,000. Now, with PST and GST it's $1,120. All kinds of good and services that were never taxed are now larded with tax. That $2.4 million Vancouver house purchase of which I spoke, if a new house, now attracts GST of $120,000 in addition to transfer tax of $50,000 for $170,000 total tax, compared to the formula in place before, with total taxes of $2,539. Where does it all go? I don't seem to recall taxes on such things as restaurant meals, hotel rooms of movie tickets when I was a kid. Maybe my memory is faulty.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

That's very interesting, that lotteries were illegal back then. That means this is an entirely new revenue stream.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> ... what gets my goat is waste and politicians lining their own pockets at taxpayers' expense. There are endless examples of this, most of which are probably hidden from taxpayers. Take, for eg. the $10 million payouts to the likes of Omar Khadr. How about the recent revelation about Adrienne Clarkson?




but what is new about omar khadr & adrienne clarkson though? 

those are run-of-the-mill stories. Clay tablets thousands of years old exist which complain about graft & corruption among the ancient ruling sumerian priest sects. Cave men probably complained that the alpha male controlled the forest & wouldn't let them collect branches to use as clubs unless they gave him women or food. There have been complaints about taxes ever since. History has witnessed entire revolutions over taxes.

before clarkson in canada it was the senators-mike-duffy-pamela-wallin-patrick-brazeau scandal. At a previous point in recent history it was mila mulroney & her under-the-table billings when she left 24 sussex drive, not to speak of brian mulroney with his alleged swiss paybacks. 

alas grift, graft & lining the pocket are facts of life, at all times, in all cultures. IMHO we in western democracies should cheer for the free press which regularly, reliably, unfailingly & accurately supplies us with the news that Another Graft is Exposed.

.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> ... the alpha male controlled the forest & wouldn't let them collect branches to use as clubs unless they gave him women or food...


LOL. Ahh yes, the good old days. :tongue-new:


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

humble_pie said:


> but what is new about omar khadr & adrienne clarkson though?
> 
> those are run-of-the-mill stories.


True, nothing new at all. Those kinds of things are repeated over and over and over. Nothing ever changes. It does not matter what party or politician you vote for. The abuse goes on and we just accept it as how it is. 

The media exposes only a tiny fraction of the wasted, converted and misappropriated funds I am sure. Much remains hidden. The odd snippet comes out, we tut-tut about it for a moment, then it is quickly forgotten. Politicians are accustomed to this complacence. On last night's news it was said that the statue of John A. Macdonald was removed from Victoria City Hall simply on the whim of the mayor, with no one really consulted. The cost to the Victoria taxpayers was $30,000. A mere bagatelle, no doubt. Who cares about $30,000, even though it's more than some make in a year? 

Years ago, I worked for a BC government administrative tribunal. We had 2 floors leased in a downtown Vancouver office tower. The Bill Bennett government decided that as many government offices as possible should be housed in government-owned buildings. The government had such a building nearby.  Two floors of that building were renovated to accommodate our offices. We vacated the perfectly appropriate space we had, when 18 months remained on the lease. The government (taxpayers) had to buy out the lease. The whole 2 floors of office furniture and apparatus were moved over a weekend. Wonder what that cost. We were in our new quarters for only a month when we were told that the government was terminating our program and giving the work back to the courts. It was all part of the Bill Bennet "restraint" program that was intended to put on a show that the government had reduced the number of public servants on the payroll. Many who were terminated received severance packages and were then immediately re-hired as "independent contractors". It all cost more - a lot more - but, for awhile, there was an appearance of less government. 

I have strong ties to Norway and have spent time there. Norway enjoys a very high per capita income partly due to state-controlled North Sea oil and natural gas resources. A century ago around the time that it declared independence from Sweden in 1905, Norway was one of the poorest countries in Europe. Politicians in Noway are not saints, but at least they have steered the country to prosperity and it has been ranked the world's most prosperous nation for years. 

Canadians have been told for as far back as I can remember about how great our country is. It has a vast land mass and unlimited resources that should be the envy of the world. Then why ain't we rich? Why, instead of managing our resources as Norway has, do we end up fractured, with governments suing each other over whether to build a pipeline, etc. When I was a kid, my dad used to say that Canadians are "hewers of wood and drawers of water". Not much has changed. That's why our best and brightest will continue to desert Canada for better opportunities.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

james4beach said:


> That's very interesting, that lotteries were illegal back then. That means this is an entirely new revenue stream.


Not only that, but our government does not even have the good sense to collect capital gains tax on such an easy target. They would rather chase someone who held onto a property for 25 years and call any increase in selling price a "capital gain" when, in fact, there is no gain at all. But we accept that without question.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> I have strong ties to Norway and have spent time there. Norway enjoys a very high per capita income partly due to state-controlled North Sea oil and natural gas resources. A century ago around the time that it declared independence from Sweden in 1905, Norway was one of the poorest countries in Europe. Politicians in Noway are not saints, but at least they have steered the country to prosperity and it has been ranked the world's most prosperous nation for years.
> 
> Canadians have been told for as far back as I can remember about how great our country is. It has a vast land mass and unlimited resources that should be the envy of the world. Then why ain't we rich? Why, instead of managing our resources as Norway has, do we end up fractured, with governments suing each other over whether to build a pipeline, etc.




ah, Norway. Lightbulb. How did the norwegians accomplish so much? how did they raise up children who were able to achieve a fine standard of living for all norwegians? plus these same sons & daughters of the kingdom were able to build the world's biggest sovereign fund, thus assuring norwegian prosperity for generations to come?

the key is children & youth imho. MP you have a unique vantage point in cmf forum. You have a teenager, you're involved in his education & you know Norway. Even better, you understand fishing & forest products economies, which norway had in abundance before Lady Luck gave the country a north sea oil economy. Might one task you with coming up with an analysis of how Norway did it? even better, some recommendations how canada could graft a few of the norwegian successful strategies onto the maple leaf?

it might turn out that isolation & distance from a gigantic, overbearing, invasive neighbour next door allowed norway to get on with its state-building in peace


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm not sure I agree with this assessment of government waste. Omar Khadr for example: the payout for him, and others who were wronged by the government, is a penalty for the government violating citizens' rights and breaking the law. The payout should be painful to the country, because like all penalties, it is a mechanism that helps us (as a country) prevent future violations of rights & freedoms.

Those kinds of things are not waste. Rather (like settlements for wrongful convictions), they are corrective actions on the path to improving and strengthening the country. The Americans, for example, don't acknowledge mistakes they make in wrongful convictions, or wrongful state executions. They have never acknowledged the mistakes they've made as they tortured detainees and committed war crimes in the middle east. They make no apologies for drone strikes on civilians, etc.

We just have to look to the Americans to see what happens in those cases. Their justice system is still out of control, with far too many people incarcerated. Their standing in the world has deteriorated, as the world no longer believes Americans practice freedom & justice. They have fuelled anti-western movements of all kinds, including terrorism, that respond to these events. Even American people are losing faith in their government and military, seeing them as corrupt wrongdoers.

It's worked out very badly for US, and we don't want that. Canada has done the right thing by apologies for mistakes and injustices, and taking ownership. Yes, that means penalties, but the penalties are good. We are an honest and just nation.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Okay j4b. Sorry I mentioned our pal Omar. You have taken up the cudgel on his behalf before. Maybe all of us should be required to send him a cheque for 10% of our net worth. We should be made to feel the lash. 

In any event, the $10 million green poultices applied by the federal government to those who feel wronged is nothing in the overall scheme of things. I stand by my comments in general about government waste. Or am I dead wrong in the other examples I gave? Am I way out over my (Norwegian) skis?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I agree with you that there's some government waste. I'd like to see continued strong accountability, auditing, and push-back from opposition parties (which is their job). I think it's a great idea to look at Norway and other successful Scandinavian countries for guidance and ideas on how to do things properly.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Wow, talk about thread drift;-) 
One difference between Canada and Norway, is that the provinces own the resources. Any of our provinces could have done the same as Norway. Alberta started but got sidelined.

Norway and the other finno-scandian countries have been much more socialist and seem to have developed a comfort with more state control and taxes.

I think it would have been difficult to develop that same mindset being so close to the USA. Although we are certainly further along that pathway than the USA.

Norway is also a little two faced. They brag about the development of hydro electric and how clean their envronment is and how much they tax ICE vehicles and the high numbers of electric cars they have( given the government subsidies half the cost) but no one mentions they got all that because of selling oil.

BTW I am not sure how old MP is but lotteries started in Canada in 1969 in Atlantic Canada. I do vaguely remember the first Lotto - Canada and how excited people were. 

I think with omar that it was the amount that pissed people off, given we did not do the detention and tortureing.
Was he really treated worse than the first nations kids forced into residential school by our own government? Raped, beaten, at a far younger age, and never a shot fired etcetc. The payouts were pretty measly considering the devastation. Anyway one could go around in circles on that arguement.

Back to gas. Priced at 98.6 today in Calgary at Costco. First yime under a buck in a while.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

Norway owns all the resources. They don't have a federal government taking money and redistributing it to Poland. The rest of Canada does not have the natural resources of Alberta, or rather, are mostly unwilling to exploit them, but happy to take the royalties.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Mukhang pera said:


> Canadians have been told for as far back as I can remember about how great our country is. It has a vast land mass and unlimited resources that should be the envy of the world. Then why ain't we rich? Why, instead of managing our resources as Norway has, do we end up fractured, with governments suing each other over whether to build a pipeline, etc. When I was a kid, my dad used to say that Canadians are "hewers of wood and drawers of water". Not much has changed. That's why our best and brightest will continue to desert Canada for better opportunities.


 The problem is Canadians do not own unlimited resources that right goes to the first nations.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Gasbuddy now shows the Canadian average at 108.5. On this 10 year chart, I added a red line to show the current price. Looks like great news: the current price at the pump is almost right on the 10 year average.

It's worth celebrating. If you fill up today, you can take comfort knowing that this really is about the average price of the last decade.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I just filled up in Winnipeg at 88 cents/L, plus another 9c/L with PC points. Unbelievable! Is anyone getting a cheaper price anywhere?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Don't know about summer but we paid 88.9 for regular two days ago.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> Don't know about summer but we paid 88.9 for regular two days ago.


I didn't know what thread to use for gas prices. Curious, which province was that?


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I just filled up in Winnipeg at 88 cents/L, plus another 9c/L with PC points. Unbelievable! Is anyone getting a cheaper price anywhere?


Gas prices are merely $1.35 a liter in lovely Vancouver and Victoria. Thanks to taxes mostly. Getting expensive to drive out to the pipeline protests.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Gas was 88 at Costo (okotoks, alberta). Up to 91.3 in Calgary this morning. We typically gas up at Co-Op. We typically get a 6 cent a litre rebate at the end of the year. Plus the one percent rebate from our credit card.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

doctrine said:


> Gas prices are merely $1.35 a liter in lovely Vancouver and Victoria. Thanks to taxes mostly. Getting expensive to drive out to the pipeline protests.


That's an enormous difference versus AB & MB. wow

Today it went up to 89 in Winnipeg.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I thought that gas was going up this weekend. It was 85.7 at Costco Okotoks (alberta) this morning. I paid 88.9 at that location a few days ago.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

Gas price fixing is so blatant it's disgusting. The government should have stepped in a long time ago but they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

The government did step in to fix the price. They added 40% in taxes. More, in some places. How much do you think gasoline should cost? I pay $1.38 a liter in British Columbia. In Europe last summer, I paid about $2.25 a liter. The governments over there really like to fix the price.


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