# Scholarship research - depressing



## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

I am currently researching scholarships for my daughter, and it is quite depressing. It appears that high school club membership, "community activism", and sports are more highly valued than personal motivation and academic achievment. She is an honour roll student and she has been personally motivated to complete high school in three years instead of four, while holding down two jobs for two years. She has worked since she was 12 years old, and currently works a minimum of 24 hours a week. She paid her own way to Europe with the school.

I guess working your butt off for years at student minimum wage while your friends are goofing off, and seeking an education in molecular biology and genetics isn't valued by our society. Even being a member of a minority doesn't seem to help.

Sad. Not sure how to break it to her without destroying some of her motivation to excel.


----------



## cashinstinct (Apr 4, 2009)

You need to play the game and pretend you care about others to get scholarships.

I got involved in stuff before University so I had other stuff to show than my academic achievement...


----------



## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

I had to explain this to a good friend of mine. It's not only about what you can do for yourself that is important, it's what you can do for others as well.

If you want help from others, shouldn't you be willing to help others as well? If you can ask for money I think it's important that you trade something you do have, whether it be time, kindness, etc.


----------



## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

RCB said:


> Even being a member of a minority doesn't seem to help.


It would be nice for her to be successful on merit, rather than a quota to be met by skin colour.


----------



## cashinstinct (Apr 4, 2009)

I am surprised it does not seem to help honestly... I remember many scholarships about 5-10 years ago I could not apply to because I was a male and not from a specific origin (only French Canadian).


----------



## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

jcgd said:


> I had to explain this to a good friend of mine. It's not only about what you can do for yourself that is important, it's what you can do for others as well.
> 
> If you want help from others, shouldn't you be willing to help others as well? If you can ask for money I think it's important that you trade something you do have, whether it be time, kindness, etc.


Gee, I would imagine a career in molecular biology and genetics would be helping others, wouldn't you? She has plenty of kindness, however she needs to use it at work as she must save for her post-secondary education.


----------



## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

jcgd said:


> It would be nice for her to be successful on merit, rather than a quota to be met by skin colour.


Yes it would, however it seems academic merit alone is not valued. As for skin colour, that doesn't come into play.


----------



## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

cashinstinct, i've tried to tell her that, but her response is that she doesn't have time. Quite honestly, the kid does need some down time. She's only 16 and has worked for four years already. She's crammed an extra 6 courses into two years of school (night school, summer school for two years), she now has her Gr. 12 year of heavy science and math courses, and still needs to pull off her 32 hours of volunteer time to graduate, and continue working. She's giving up Christmas and March Break to work and volunteer.

My point is it appears the harder she works, the less it's acknowledged. Social activism's fine, but when you want a loved one's illness reversed or life saved due to science, organizing car washes for Africa isn't going to do it for you. Car washes aren't curing Ebola.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Having sponsored scholarships, shouldn't it be the person funding the scholarship decision on what they are looking for in a recipient? If you feel that some group is being left out, feel free to step up to the plate and set up a scholarship...it's not hard.

There are many scholarships for the top academic students, perhaps you are not looking in the right places. Talk to the school, the one where I fund actually publishes a book of scholarships for students, it's quite thick.

There are also a lot of other ways for academics to make a lot of money for school...I recently attended a science fair where thousands of dollars were handed out to junior high and high school students, and that was only at a city level, the winners went off to the regionals, then the nationals, all with money prizes...


----------



## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> Having sponsored scholarships, shouldn't it be the person funding the scholarship decision on what they are looking for in a recipient? .


Most certainly, however, as I stated, the vast majority of scholarships I've come across during this very long day of research require an involvement in a specific sport, or involvement in a cause. That's what individuals have wanted to promote. A good portion of the remaining scholarships require one of those two, coupled with financial need. I cannot, for the life of me, find a definition of financial need from the school website.

Look, I'm not trying to be nasty, or undervalue sport or charity/humanity, or even people who initiate scholarships. It just seems there is a substantial imbalance, with less emphasis on academic achievement than I expected. We're faced with about $80,000 just for her undergrad degree, as we live 10 hours from her school of choice in southern Ontario. There is no option to live at home as we're in the northern part of the province, and we just got our first child through post-secondary education. We will help her all we can, but it won't be much being second in line.


----------



## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

What do you get for 80,000 ? Is that just the cost that is paid to the school or does that include cell phones, clothes, beer, car, housing, spring vacations ? 

If a speculator has to put down 80,000 on the table for just the school it is out of reach for most speculators that use sound money management to go to school. Betting more then 2% of ones portfolio one a speculative bet is just crazy. The so called financial experts that push going to school for the masses if the numbers are really as high as 80,000 are no experts @ money management.


----------



## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

One year (2013 numbers)

7300 tuition and fees
7000 residence
5000 meal plan (mandatory)

She's paid for her own cell phone since she got it, I've never seen a bill. No car, doesn't include a trip home at Christmas, or any other trip. She thinks beer is gross, drunk or stoned kids stupid. (She's half Amy, half Bernadette.) We may be able to get the housing and food costs down after first year, but the first year she'll only be 17, and we don't like the idea of sending a 17 year old girl off on her own 10 hours away, so residence is in order.


----------



## cashinstinct (Apr 4, 2009)

Honestly, she probably would have had more luck in scholarship search by doing school on the regular schedule (no one year early) and being involved in stuff / sports.

I am sure she can still find scholarships though with just a little activity that takes little time. I did not have to do a lot combined with grades.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Well, did you get a government cheque each month for having kids? Most families in need do, it's a couple hundred bucks (more than $2500 a year) I believe...had you put away $2500 of it each year into an RESP, the government would also have given you another $500/year minimum (there are also other one time payments). Had you just invested in GICs, by my calculations, 17x$3000/ year, you would have had $51,000+ by now at no real cost to yourself...

Not criticizing your lifestyle here, just pointing out a possible missed opportunity.

Next thing, at least when I went to school, is a part time job...or several (personally I had three going to school), or taking a year off and saving (shouldn't be too hard for her from the sounds of it). Maybe the delayed gratification will make her appreciate it more...

To me, this thread is sounding a lot like an "expected entitlement" rant like the "screwed generation" one. In the long run, I doubt working a year or two to afford university would cause much harm...at this age, and I know they hate to admit it despite how they act, she has a lot of maturing to do. I don't mean that as a knock either, but she's very young and will be completely different in 10-15 years.

I do understand where you are coming from, all my kids are bright, and are in a special school for the gifted...but, while I do expect them to go on and do well, I don't expect their lives will be easy...I grew up never qualifying for many grants or scholarships not being a minority, or whatever, so I don't think much has changed.

Apply for student loans, then appeal and get some of the bursaries that come with the loans. There are options out there, but remember society has already been subsidizing her for her primary education and will (to a lesser extent granted) continue to do so for post secondary...teach her to appreciate what she's been given, not to resent the fact that they aren't picking up even more of the tab.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

The challenge is there are a lot of academic kids around that do well in school. How well they do in school, is not necessarily an indication of how well they do in life, or if they will necessarily help others. There are doctors who JPEG in the profession because they want to help others, there are some that do it strictly for the money. Just because you child wants to go in microbiology, it doesn't mean that she will go on for her phd and research the cure for cancer. Though, I certainly hope she does. 

First, I would considered why your daughter is going to finish her high in a year less. Though it is motivating for the student,universities don't care. I know because I was able to graduate high school a year early. I used to think it was such a great idea to be first, because it meant being best, and then you get in university and you see adult students, students who took a few extra years, or time off. They are all there so it doesn't matter. The advice given to my nieces and nephew was to spread out their university by a year, so they could find time to do school well, and volunteer. You daughter is doing a lot, but some of it doesn't matter to the universities or the scholarship providers. 

In terms of community service, this is as important as academics for some employment and scholarships. The person who is more likely to work better in a team and front a cause is the one that volunteers her time. I did of community and volunteer work since grade 7 and have continued pretty through high school, university, and as a adult. In many cases, it has been that that has gotten my foot in the door, especially in the beginning. I have beat many others who are much smarter and academic than myself. I look for it when I hire people too. I want the person who get involved and engaged not because money is involved, but because that is the type of person they are. Also, what kind of work is a teen going to have that really relates to their future career. Fast food, retail, babysitting, some manual labour, maybe a summer office job, etc, it all looks the same after a while. 

Finally, even if you daughter doesn't meet all the criteria, she should apply. A large percent of scholarships un granted, and some will relax some if criteria and will still give it out. My girl applied for a tonne of scholarships and recieved some very odd ones because no ones else applied. 

Your daughter still has a lot of time, so have her get out and do some community service, and keep applying.


----------



## Butters (Apr 20, 2012)

My girlfriend got a considerable amount last year and this year. She almost makes more than me!!

She doesn't volunteer. Just gets A+ in everything.

She knows how to fill out those forms and takes her time with them. Gets denied about 75% of the time but the other 25% she gets lucky.


----------



## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

cashinstinct said:


> Honestly, she probably would have had more luck in scholarship search by doing school on the regular schedule (no one year early) and being involved in stuff / sports.
> 
> I am sure she can still find scholarships though with just a little activity that takes little time. I did not have to do a lot combined with grades.


Yes, I would agree she did us no favour by graduating high school a year early. That's one year less we and she have lost to saving, especially being the second child to hit post-secondary education in a short time.


----------



## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

SheaButters, thanks.

Plugging Along, she was set on course to finish early by the school. For 8th grade she attended a 7/8 program in a new high school that has a "reach ahead" program, that encouraged bright students to take Gr. 9 courses over and above the Gr. 8 courses. For her it seemed a natural progression from there. She also was the lower grade in many split classes, so most of her friends were a grade above, now she will graduate with them.

I will encourage her to apply to as many as possible that we can find. I will also encourage her to think long and hard about her upcoming volunteer hours. She had wanted to volunteer at our hospital, however that requires a 6 month commitment that would conflict with her work schedule. I get that she should be well-rounded. She is, it's just these last two years have been very tight for time. She gave up soccer to work to save for school, and had previously been involved in martial arts, we just didn't realize how many scholarships were tied to sport. Like many kids, once high school and jobs hit the scene, participation in sport drops.


----------



## el oro (Jun 16, 2009)

When your daughter is applying to various university programs, ensure that you fill out those profiles that determine admission scholarships. There are university wide and program specific scholarships at admission, some of which are based solely on academics. I applied to six universities/program combinations since I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do at the time yet and was offered scholarships from certain programs automatically (some offered none). If I remember correctly, engineering offered better money than science or business. Then, depending on the program, there are scholarships offered after each year. You can potentially receive annual scholarships exceeding tuition each year this way.

The challenge in competing on academics is that there are a lot of kids whose parents insist or forbid their high school children to work, so that they can focus on their studies. A lot of these same parents put their kids into after-school programs where you learn things years before they are taught in the classroom. These kids can coast through school while getting A++ and have plenty of spare time.


----------



## Taraz (Nov 24, 2013)

Which province are you in? Alberta has the Rutherford scholarships, which most honors students can get (you need >80% in key subjects in high school). 

Really, it sounds like your daughter has her act together. If she's been working since she was 12, and now working 24 hours a week, can't she affort to pay for university? (Also, has she tried to get a job that pays more than minimum wage?)

Specific programs also have scholarships (for instance, I got a $500 scholarship to be a female honours student in engineering at the U of A). 

Have you thought about trying to fund her school with crowdsourcing (like kickstarter)? Some people seem to be having success with What does she want to do / research after she gets her degree?


----------



## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

I do not buy the "no-time" card. I am no super star and was certainly not a A+ student --- but I did manage a part-time job at 25hrs, paying for my own cell phone, car, and insurance, I partook in flying on weekends, the cadet program (band, drill, rifle teams, and volunteer work for anything and everything!), volleyball, rugby, martial arts, jazz school band, and pulled up high 80's in U courses and STILL has a social life. That being said, because I chose a career in aviation, I was not privy to the waterfall of money that is thrown out to post secondary students. Heck, I could not even get a student loan! I spent north of $50 000 out of pocket, with no scholarships and paid out of my own, young, shallow pockets. All while friends were coasting on OSAP, and student loans with deferred interest, and partying it up like rock stars. 

Now, on the other side of the table, when I am holding review boards for potential scholarship candidates; We (I) look for well-rounded applicants that are not just academics and workaholics. You must be an "everything-aholic".

Follow the advice above. Get involved in everything. Get rid of the "can't" and "no time" attitude. Apply for what you want, not what you think you an get.


----------



## Namael (Jul 14, 2013)

As someone who just finished my university career in biology and life sciences, and just finished a professional program (I am now 28), I can hopefully give you some advice as I have learned it.

1) Almost all scholarships, regardless of criteria, require "Financial Need"
2) "Financial Need" is really just a fancy term for OSAP. If you have not applied for OSAP and have not been assessed by OSAP, you will not qualify for any of these scholarships. If you cannot qualify for OSAP, then you are not considered in financial need. Also, anyone out of high school is income tested based on their parents income for the first 4 years out of high school. If you can qualify for OSAP, take the money, even if you don't need it, and just stick it in a non-interest bearing chequeing account. The fact that you have taken OSAP will open many more scholarship opportunities during your daughter's university career.
3) All scholarships require either a) involvement in student government or student organization, b) involvement in a specific area (usually whatever the organization paying the scholarship deems important), c) involvement in sports and school based activities. Very few will require academic excellence, and if they do, those ones are few and far between. 
4) Going to university in any science related field (physics, biology, and chemistry) will yield you a useless piece of paper. Nobody cares about bachelor's degrees in these fields. You need to do something with it, like apply to a professional field afterwards (doctor, dentist, pharmacist, optometrist, etc), or work on a Ph.D in a needed research area. 

Unfortunately, society does not value science based programs. You really have to do it because you want too. I know a lot of people who have done a bachelors, masters, and Ph.D, who now make less than people in construction and finance who only have high school degrees. So I get where your anger is coming from. Hope this information helps!


----------



## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

Namael said:


> 1) Almost all scholarships, regardless of criteria, require "Financial Need"


Definetely not true



Namael said:


> 3) All scholarships require either a) involvement in student government or student organization, b) involvement in a specific area (usually whatever the organization paying the scholarship deems important), c) involvement in sports and school based activities. Very few will require academic excellence, and if they do, those ones are few and far between.


Also not accurate. There are ample scholarships, grants and bursaries based on academic excellence.



Namael said:


> 4) Going to university in any science related field (physics, biology, and chemistry) will yield you a useless piece of paper. Nobody cares about bachelor's degrees in these fields. You need to do something with it, like apply to a professional field afterwards (doctor, dentist, pharmacist, optometrist, etc), or work on a Ph.D in a needed research area.


What did you expect, a job? It has nothing to do with society, individuals coming out of university are simply not "trained" for any particular employment. Most people I know consider university a stepping stone. If you expect to get a job straight out of univ, you're misguided and should have gone to college.

Additionally, for some people it's not all about the money. Some people have a genuine interest in what they're studying and a "real" job ($$) is often the last thing on their minds.

To the OP: There are scholarships available for minority groups. Additionally, many minority groups have an easier time securing employement - the OPP, etc.


----------



## Namael (Jul 14, 2013)

Take a look here:

https://uwaterloo.ca/student-awards...current-undergraduate-students/general-awards

Tell me how many are based on academic excellence alone. Also, every single one of them requires financial need. 

It makes no sense for funding to go to someone without financial need. The whole point of these awards are to help those who would not otherwise be able to attend university without financial help. 

I'm pretty sure most people go to university in hopes of getting a career, even if it's in research.


----------



## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

Namael said:


> Tell me how many are based on academic excellence alone. Also, every single one of them requires financial need.


When did I ever say that eligibility was based on "academic excellence alone", I DID NOT! As you can see from the list, in order to apply you often require a "minimum" GPA, hence re-enforcing the inaccuracy of your prior comments -"very few will require academic excellence".



Namael said:


> It makes no sense for funding to go to someone without financial need. The whole point of these awards are to help those who would not otherwise be able to attend university without financial help.


I completely disagree. There should be some scholarships set aside for those with financial need, many are. However, I feel it's also important to offer awards, grants, scholarships, etc. based on excellence in academic, sport, community involvement, etc., irrespective of financial need. Just my opinion.


----------



## nahc (Feb 22, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> I used to think it was such a great idea to be first, because it meant being best, and then you get in university and you see adult students, students who took a few extra years, or time off. They are all there so it doesn't matter. The advice given to my nieces and nephew was to spread out their university by a year, so they could find time to do school well, and volunteer. You daughter is doing a lot, but some of it doesn't matter to the universities or the scholarship providers.


I disagree. There are numerous advantages of graduating early (almost 4 years for me). 
1. If you are female, you get to start on a family early. Women having babies after age 35 is bad for mother and baby from a biological perspective. Yes, I am female and understand this is sexist, but life isn't fair. This is imperative if you are female, want a professional career (eg, medicine or business isn't very forgiving of time lapses) and some babies.
2. More years of income and more years to develop your career or retire early. More time to do what you want. Overall, more $$ or time.
3. Impressive feat, especially when you are in an interview setting. This I used to my advantage on numerous occasions.

Disadvantages:
1. People don't take you quite seriously. You get over it. A respected and famous surgeon (Dr Carol Swallow, the lady who operated on Andrea Bargnari) taught me this phrase when challenged about my age: "Do you want the oldest or the best?" She also graduated extremely early and is thankful that she did so.
2. It's harder to do and maintain excellence. In university, I averaged 80% more hard science coursework than the average person in my program.
3. You get shafted by those RESP saving plans (which taught me to always do the self-directed version).

Scholarships are not based on financial needs, bursaries are. There are scholarships for academic merit alone, but you better be extremely "pointy" in one subject (ie, you placed first in the Ferme math contest, etc). Otherwise they are looking for well rounded individuals because "high academic achievement" is a dime-a-dozen. That's why they look for something else, especially in programs like medicine, etc.

As for scholarship/minorities/etc. My brother graduated first in class in all of UBC Engineering and was student treasurer, numerous awards for Taekwondo, piano and community service (he spent nearly all of his free time working with the poor and drug addicts of the downtown east side). Before his valedictorian speech, the dean came up to him and apologized for not awarding him the top scholarship (the one with the most $$)-- it went to a girl. Because she was the girl with the top marks. How is this fair? 

I also know that professional schools (medicine, dentistry) actively discriminate against Asians and East Indians (because they are over-represented), and now since the entering class is 60%+ female, likely the female gender as well.

Just shrug it off. If your daughter is smart, scholarship or not, debts or not, young or not, she'll be fine.


----------



## banjopete (Feb 4, 2014)

I'd say keep looking, there are many many scholarships offered from many schools. If you're limiting your school choices to a single place you're also limiting the possibilities of perhaps better funded scholarships and programs elsewhere. I'll second the reward purely on merit as BC also offers a UBC scholarship for students who achieve a better than 80% grade average through their 11th and 12th if I recall correctly from many years ago. Many programs also have awards for top students and awards based on their in school performance once they get into it, not solely pre-school ones. Many athletic programs also offer additional money to student athletes. Your employer might offer something, or your trade union, or your community social groups. You could also leverage volunteer experiences into requests for scholarships with smartly worded letters requesting such a thing. I wouldn't worry, there are many avenues once need creeps in, until then she's not the first student to embark on what can be an expensive and fun experience without the funding in place. Student loans, from the government, and LOC from banks are widely available and serve as great learning tools for debt and debt payment too.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

McDonald's offer scholarships to their employees.


----------



## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

RCB said:


> One year (2013 numbers)
> 
> 7300 tuition and fees
> 7000 residence
> ...



The real cost is 7300 everyone needs food & shelter.

Was listening to internet radio & apparently the kids in some of the 3rd world countries are getting a better education then the kids in North America with spending a lot less money. When the productive are taxed to pay for all the social programs in Canada it is not the best incentive to be productive & get an education. The kids now days have it to easy. The kids in the 3rd world countries are not bused to school they walk because they want to be there. Here if the buses are shut down do to weather or what ever the kids do not want to be @ school so they do not even bother walking. Here if the teachers go on strike the parents do not get together to teach the kids, the parents & kids have no incentive.

All funding should be cut off for furthering education Anyone that really wants to go to school should be able to work & come up with 7300 for tuition & fees. If they have to earn the money they are more likely to get something out of it. The way the system is set up now a lot of kids go to just party as the tax payers pay the bill to educate students that are to lazy to do it on their own.

Throwing all this money @ education does not make education better. It just makes no financial sense for kids to go to school to try to achieve financial independence & learn from an education system that waists money hand over fist.


It is hard to be independent when the focus is on learning instead of thinking.


----------



## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

lonewolf said:


> The way the system is set up now a lot of kids go to just party as the tax payers pay the bill to educate students that are to lazy to do it on their own.


Agreed, a good portion of students waste a lot of time and money and end up with a costly "experience". I don't however think cutting off funding is the best solution.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Online education is expanding rapidly, and many high level schools are offering programs and course studies already.

Even the highest regarded schools like MIT are embarking down the online road.

It is an option for parents and students to think about in the future.


----------



## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Sags excellent point

When trying to get a job the day is coming when the smart student that knew how to get the education in a more practical way i.e., less money is going to get the job over the kid that spent money hand over fist to get a degree. Why not hire someone that is good with money rather then someone who is not. If a business is in business to make money why hire someone who is not good with money. On line education would also be an indication that the employee does not need hand holding & can work independently.


----------



## protomok (Jul 9, 2012)

How about applying to a school that does offer scholarships based on academic excellence? Some excellent schools like Carleton give you automatic scholarships if your grades are high enough...regardless of how much volunteering she chooses to do.


```
Entrance Scholarships (2014/2015)
Number of Scholarships &            Value	  Admission        Average
Unlimited @ $16,000	$4,000 x four years	Renewable*	95 – 100%
Unlimited @ $12,000	$3,000 x four years	Renewable*	90 – 94.9%
Unlimited @ $8,000	$2,000 x four years	Renewable*	85 - 89.9%
Unlimited @ $4,000	$1,000 x four years	Renewable*	80 – 84.9%
```
http://carleton.ca/awards/scholarships/entrance-scholarships-for-new-students/


----------

