# Pfizer vaccine question...



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm scheduled to get my first jab of Pfizer in a few days.
Others who've gotten it here lately are being given appointments -in August- for their second shot.
I think I read somewhere that Pfizer recommends the second shot be given within 21days to be fully effective?
So......where does that leave people like us?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

jargey3000 said:


> I'm scheduled to get my first jab of Pfizer in a few days.
> Others who've gotten it here lately are being given appointments -in August- for their second shot.
> I think I read somewhere that Pfizer recommends the second shot be given within 21days to be fully effective?
> So......where does that leave people like us?


Waiting.

Really I was concerned about this, but it seems that we'll be needing variant boosters in a few months anyway. There is basically no way we don't get several variants of interest or concern over the next few months.

1 dose gives a high degree of protection, 2 doses is better, but you're mostly protected from just the first dose, and the idea is to stop overloading the hospitals and having people die.


I was against the extended intervals for Pfizer & Moderna, since they never explicitly tested it (they did for AZ)

But I now think this was an acceptable gamble. Hopefully they keep the JNJ one shot for homeless and other hard to reach populations.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

jargey3000 said:


> So......where does that leave people like us?


A single shot of Pfizer provides significant protection, to the point it pretty much eliminates hospitalization and death. So as soon as you get the one shot and *wait 14 days* (for immunity to kick in) you have quite a bit of protection, at least for a while.

How long that is, that's still a bit unknown. The more solid protection comes with the second dose of course. The single shot will give you a lot of safety for the next month or two. But for the next four months? We don't really know.

The infectious disease experts I heard talk about this pointed out that delays between two shots are somewhat flexible, and a person's immunity does not suddenly disappear. It declines gradually.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Jargey, It leaves you just where the rest of us are. Part of a big experiment.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

agent99 said:


> Jargey, It leaves you just where the rest of us are. Part of a big experiment.


Yes, part of a big experiment, but better off than if we weren't vaccinating anyone.

If we only vaccinated 70 and 80 year olds with full doses, then we'd be depriving younger (WORKING) age people from any vaccination.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

From the horses mouth

_*Pfizer and BioNTech’s Phase 3 study for the COVID-19 vaccine was designed to evaluate the vaccine’s safety and efficacy following a 2-dose schedule, separated by 21 days. The safety and efficacy of the vaccine has not been evaluated on different dosing schedules as the majority of trial participants received the second dose within the window specified in the study design.*_

_*There are no data from this study to demonstrate that protection after the first dose is sustained after 21 days. *_


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eder said:


> From the horses mouth...


You're quoting Pfizer. Well that's all good, but Pfizer was also supposed to deliver us millions of more doses. They did not.

Why didn't they make good on their promise to deliver their product? If Pfizer fulfilled their contract, then we *would* be able to follow their directions.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Yes, part of a big experiment, but better off than if we weren't vaccinating anyone.


Experiment, sure, one could view it that way ... but one that appears to be working.
If you look at the new cases vs death rate for Canada the two have now detached by a great amount.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

cainvest said:


> Experiment, sure, one could view it that way ... but one that appears to be working.
> If you look at the new cases vs death rate for Canada the two have now detached by a great amount.


It's not as experimental as people seem to think. The BC CDC carefully monitored a few areas where they initially applied the single doses, and this data was shared with the world. Other medical researchers have been citing the BC data ever since, and the same thing has been tried elsewhere in the world.

I still remember watching the first press conference when BC presented the data on how effective a single dose was. The results were jaw dropping. At least before variants are involved, a single dose is known to halt outbreaks and stops hospitalizations.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

jargey3000 said:


> I think I read somewhere that Pfizer recommends the second shot be given within 21days to be fully effective?
> So......where does that leave people like us?


Yes jargey, as they say, "we're all guinea pigs now thanks to Justin Trudeau". The federal government forgot to read the label on the vaccine bottle that said 21 days between dose 1 and 2 and decided 4 months was a smarter route to take.

At the time when they revealed this population wide experiment you're about to take part in, Canada’s top scientist advised against extending the time between doses of the COVID-19 vaccines to four months in seniors. Meh, what could she know.

Of course you can find lots of article written on the subject. The younger crowd will try and convince you how smart it is to protect themselves and forget how vulnerable the older population is to dying from the virus, but ignore all that. Just sit and wait your 4 months. I'm sure it will all be fine.......

ltr


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> At least before variants are involved, a single dose is known to halt outbreaks and stops hospitalizations.


I would like to see Canada show data on breakthrough cases broken down to, post 14 days, hospitalized, ICU and deaths.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

_" Just sit and wait your 4 months. I'm sure it will all be fine......"
o_h yes, that's my plan 🤓


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

jargey3000 said:


> _" Just sit and wait your 4 months. I'm sure it will all be fine......"
> o_h yes, that's my plan 🤓


You are very likely to be strongly protected for the next 1-3 months, no problem. And it's also very likely that we'll have enough vaccine supply by that time to get you a second dose.

You don't have to hide indoors for the next 4 months.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

like_to_retire said:


> The younger crowd will try and convince you how smart it is to protect themselves and forget how vulnerable the older population is to dying from the virus, but ignore all that.


You think it's sensible to leave younger, working age people in mortal danger, just so that the elderly can get a second shot which only _marginally_ improves their safety?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Look at it this way - getting the first shot will give you an idea how receptive your body is to this new type of vaccine. 

If you react not so great, then 21 days is too short for the 2nd shot. If you don't react at all, then heck 4 months ain't so bad ... note, this is my opinion, far from the science.

Actually with the incoming supply of Pfizer, I think seniors will get their 2nd shot without having to wait "4 months = 16 weeks". 

I'm getting mine's first in a couple of weeks, just in time for the incoming supply ... I have waited long enough.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Eder said:


> From the horses mouth
> 
> _*Pfizer and BioNTech’s Phase 3 study for the COVID-19 vaccine was designed to evaluate the vaccine’s safety and efficacy following a 2-dose schedule, separated by 21 days. The safety and efficacy of the vaccine has not been evaluated on different dosing schedules as the majority of trial participants received the second dose within the window specified in the study design.
> 
> There are no data from this study to demonstrate that protection after the first dose is sustained after 21 days. *_


For all we know, it might be more effective. The trials didn't have the luxury of waiting four months for the second dose.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Beaver101 said:


> Actually with the incoming supply of Pfizer, I think seniors will get their 2nd shot without having to wait "4 months = 16 weeks".


We have already waited 2 months. No idea if we still have any protection. We assume not, and carry on as if we have not had a vaccination. Nobody is able to tell us otherwise because nobody knows.

The new supply of Pfizer will be aimed at those needing a first dose. What happens if the supply chain breaks again - will interval to 2nd dose be extended again?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

agent99 said:


> We have already waited 2 months. No idea if we still have any protection.* We assume not, and carry on as if we have not had a vaccination. *Nobody is able to tell us otherwise because nobody knows.


 ... I would agree and assume the same since as even the experts can't tell with a certainty.



> The new supply of Pfizer will be aimed at those needing a first dose. *What happens if the supply chain breaks again - will interval to 2nd dose be extended again?*


 ... to be honest, we are really at the mercy of the vaccine purchasers (procurers)/distributors (aka the 2 level of governments) who are at the mercy of the producers.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> You think it's sensible to leave younger, working age people in mortal danger, just so that the elderly can get a second shot which only _marginally_ improves their safety?


Maybe, remember some data shows the risk of death is many times higher.
90% protection for some might be the same as baseline for others, at that point it's a math question who benefits more.

It's not as simple as some would say. But I will say I am not in favour of this experiement, if only because the younger (<50) people running our lives are filling hospitals.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Pfizer is coming out with a pill this winter designed to cure Covid if a person contracts it. If it works there will no longer be any vaccines...in the USA anyways. Their laws read that no vaccines will be used for a disease that is treatable.



Pfizer testing a home-cure pill for COVID-19 that could be ready by end of year: CEO


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Eder said:


> Pfizer is coming out with a pill this winter designed to cure Covid if a person contracts it. If it works there will no longer be any vaccines...in the USA anyways. Their laws read that no vaccines will be used for a disease that is treatable.


Ther were reports in the news today where a healthy teenager from Alberta and a healthy father of 46 died suddenly, presumably from Covid. I doubt a pill would have helped them. No explanations yet except that perhaps the variants can act faster?



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/sarah-strate-alberta-teen-unexplained-death-after-covid-exposure-1.6008021











‘How tragic, how fast, how indiscriminate’: Healthy B.C. father, 46, dies of COVID-19 at home | Globalnews.ca


Melissa Hance is speaking out with a warning: it's not just the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions at risk of death from COVID-19.




globalnews.ca


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

agent99 said:


> Ther were reports in the news today where a healthy teenager from Alberta and a healthy father of 46 died suddenly, presumably from Covid. I doubt a pill would have helped them. No explanations yet except that perhaps the variants can act faster?


Very tragic. It's important that anyone with COVID monitors their conditions carefully, especially breathing and oxygen. Take a look at the experience of a CMF forum member who recently caught it and did in fact have breathing problems... a very dangerous situation.

I strongly suggest that everyone buys a pulse oximeter, measure your oxygen and know what your normal is. If you are diagnosed with COVID and see your oxygen declining as described here, do not hesitate or wait it out ... call 911 or get to a hospital ASAP (walk into Emergency or Urgent Care)

The oximeter is a cheap device you can get for $40 to $60 and clips onto your finger.

If you're low on oxygen, or having trouble breathing, don't hesitate to go to a hospital. They are quite good at treating COVID and keeping people alive. Of the 4 people I personally know who caught COVID, two of them were admitted to hospital, and recovered quite well after brief treatment.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Eder said:


> Pfizer is coming out with a pill this winter designed to cure Covid if a person contracts it. If it works there will no longer be any vaccines...in the USA anyways. Their laws read that no vaccines will be used for a disease that is treatable.
> 
> 
> 
> Pfizer testing a home-cure pill for COVID-19 that could be ready by end of year: CEO


Uhm what? No Hep A/B vaccines allowed? That sounds like, as they say, 'fake news'.

Regardless, hopefully the new treatments are safe and effective. I heard of one treatment that is available now to treat symptoms, but only works well for mild to moderate cases and needs to be administered at a hospital, so it is of limited use in our present crisis.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

A 13 year old died in Ontario. Mother was already in hospital. Father didn’t take daughter to hospital as he feared she would be transferred to a hospital farther away. Apparently she deteriorated quickly. Saw an another story….maybe it was the Alberts one…..young person was talking one minute and unconscious 10 mins later. Crazy.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Money172375 said:


> A 13 year old died in Ontario. Mother was already in hospital. Father didn’t take daughter to hospital as he feared she would be transferred to a hospital farther away. Apparently she deteriorated quickly. Saw an another story….maybe it was the Alberts one…..young person was talking one minute and unconscious 10 mins later. Crazy.


These are really concerning stories. The Alberta one was the death of a 17 year old, linked above and here it is again. Even more strange, the test for COVID came back negative. They are retesting and seeing if they find COVID.

The teen's lungs were severely infected and the hospital believes she had blood clots in the heart/lungs. Sure seems like COVID, even though the test is negative.

This makes me wonder how many other deaths due to COVID might have been missed.

Reminder, again... get your hands on a pulse oximeter. Know what your normal oxygen level is.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

jargey3000 said:


> I'm scheduled to get my first jab of Pfizer in a few days.
> Others who've gotten it here lately are being given appointments -in August- for their second shot.
> I think I read somewhere that Pfizer recommends the second shot be given within 21days to be fully effective?
> So......where does that leave people like us?


 Jargey google Michael Yeadon former VP of Pfizer he has some very interesting info regarding the vaccines


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

When we got our second dose of Pfizer after 42 days, our reaction was stronger, arm pain headaches and low level nausea for a day. Experts say that can indicate immunity kicking in.

Anyway, we are totally protected now for nearly 2 weeks and there is a feeling of relief. Still wear masks and stay to outdoor restaurants but there is less paranoia when we encounter unmasked pedestrians on the streets.

We are awaiting our official vaccine passports from the government showing the dose numbers that we received. This should help us with our European travel next year.


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## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

I received my second dose of the Pfizer vaccine almost two weeks ago. The second day after I received the second dose, I experienced minor nausea, sore arm and sleepiness. I do feel a sense of relief but will even feel better when my wife will receive her second dose some four months after the first dose.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

kcowan said:


> When we got our second dose of Pfizer after 42 days, our reaction was stronger, arm pain headaches and low level nausea for a day. Experts say that can indicate immunity kicking in.
> 
> Anyway, we are totally protected now for nearly 2 weeks and there is a feeling of relief. Still wear masks and stay to outdoor restaurants but there is less paranoia when we encounter unmasked pedestrians on the streets.
> 
> We are awaiting our official vaccine passports from the government showing the dose numbers that we received. This should help us with our European travel next year.


FYI, don't back off from masks and other measures. Pfizer is appearing to be significantly less effective against some of the variants.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

We seem to be pretty safe in PV. There are few tourists outside of Americans and mostly vaccinated. But we always intended to remain masked to protect others.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Wifey had no ill effects on 2nd dose of Pfizer...I had no effects on either dose of Moderna.

We started going to restaurants, stores, even the China Town gong show. We only wear masks where required now, I'll be happy to throw them away permanently in the future.

We believe that the vaccine will keep us safe. I doubt the CDC is lying to us.


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## s1231 (Jan 1, 2017)

perhaps, public should be aware of this.
(keep eyes on some side effects of the vaccines 1~10? years).
---
*



*WKMG News 6 ClickOrlando Mar 29, 2021
They’re called COVID-19 breakthrough cases -- people who have been fully vaccinated yet still contract the virus more than 14 days after their second shot.

---








Pentagon Tracking 14 Cases of Heart Inflammation in Troops After COVID-19 Shots


The heart condition is a complication of a coronavirus infection but also is being investigated for any link to the Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines.




www.military.com




26 Apr 2021
Military.com | By Patricia Kime
The Defense Department is tracking 14 cases of heart inflammation, or myocarditis, in military health patients who developed the condition after receiving either the Pfizer or Moderna COVID-19 vaccine.
The rare disorder, usually caused by a virus, has been linked to COVID-19. But following a number of reports from Israel of patients developing the inflammation in conjunction with receiving vaccines, the Israeli Health Ministry is exploring a possible link, Israel's Channel 12 reported Friday, according to the Jerusalem Post.

According to reports, Israel is exploring any link between myocarditis and the Pfizer vaccine. Of more than 5 million vaccines administered in Israel, 62 cases of myocarditis were recorded days after vaccination. Most were seen in men under age 30; 56 of the 62 cases occurred after the second vaccine dose.

Military myocarditis patients are being advised not to exercise for three to six months; to limit carbohydrates and sugar to reduce inflammation; and to restrict themselves to no more than one alcoholic beverage a day.
"No PT, exercise, marching or drill for the next six months," according to one service member's discharge instructions.

As reported by Channel 12 and the Jerusalem Post, the Israeli Health Ministry estimates that one out of every 20,000 young men developed myocarditis after COVID-19 vaccination.
"It is likely that the onset of myocarditis is associated with receiving the vaccine (especially the second dose)," the report notes.

The CDC recommends that patients contact their doctor after receiving the vaccine if redness or tenderness worsens at the vaccine site after 24 hours or if "side effects are worrying or do not seem to be going away after a few days."
Graves said the military patients all experienced chest pain 12 to 96 hours after vaccination.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

s1231 said:


> As reported by Channel 12 and the Jerusalem Post, the Israeli Health Ministry estimates that one out of every 20,000 young men developed myocarditis after COVID-19 vaccination.
> "It is likely that the onset of myocarditis is associated with receiving the vaccine (especially the second dose)," the report notes.


The source from Israel that I read said it numbers in "tens of incidents" among more than 5 million vaccinated. But yes, heavily concentrated in young people.

Note however that it's usually not fatal, and goes away naturally. It's not nearly as severe (or fatal) as that special blood clot linked to AZ.

I do agree with you though, that long term health side effects are of course a concern. On the other hand we have to make decisions based on the immediate (significant) risk posed by COVID.

Let's take 30 years olds for example. The Canadian case fatality rate from COVID is roughly 0.04% at this age. That means that if you had 5 million people infected with COVID, roughly 2000 deaths would occur. That is far worse than "tens of incidents" of a condition which people usually just bounce back from.

Here's something to think about. If you left Canadians aged 20-40 unvaccinated, that's roughly 10 million people and maybe 3/4 would catch COVID (it's inevitable). Many of those conditions would be mild, but we'd expect to see roughly 3,000 deaths as a result.

And several thousand more could have long-lasting harm from COVID such as damage to their hearts, lungs, and maybe brains. We're truly in a very difficult situation. All evidence still says that vaccination is the right move.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

im wondering if those reports (above) would show a higher rate from Moderna, or from Pfizer?
It'd be nice to know.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Well the Israeli reports would be Pfizer and I think most of the US issues are from Moderna but they may have some Pfizer as well.

In the end it really does not matter. I doubt anyone is going to get their hands on much Moderna since it is in very short supply and most provincial governments are starting to worry about acquiring enough to 2nd dose those who already received 1 dose. So any new comers are probably going to get access to either Pfizer or Astrazeneca. JNJ will go to specific groups due to its unique 1 dose quality.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Our next door neighbor just got their first shot.......Moderna, a couple of days ago. Their second dose is scheduled for August.


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