# Verifying PC promo interest payout



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm running a detailed calculation on my PC Financial accounts to verify that they have actually paid me the promotional interest promised under contract. They paid out my promotional interest, but it doesn't match my own calculation.

Perhaps the board can help me calculate this using some contrived numbers. As I understand: the savings account normally is paying 1.3%. In their most recent promotion, they said that the base amount is the sum across chequing and savings on March 21. From March 24 to June 30, they will pay 2.5% promotional interest on aggregate amounts exceeding the base amount.

How does one calculate this? Let's say

2014-03-21: chequing $2,000 and savings $18,000 meaning starting = $20,000
2014-03-24: chequing $5,000 and savings $25,000 and aggregate = $30,000

What's the correct calculation? Unfortunately I don't have the legalese handy. But it's non-obvious how to calculate this. PC is already paying regular interest each month on the savings account, so you can't double count that. For instance you _don't_ earn 1.3% on the 25k plus another 2.5% on the 10k of new deposits because that double-counts some of the savings balance.

Is this obvious to anyone? Because it sure is not obvious to me.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Here is the archived page showing their fine print
https://web.archive.org/web/20140411153114/http://pcfinancial.ca/debankify/

From their wording, it's not clear how they calculate the promotional interest that they paid out in July. I would be grateful if someone can show me using the example above


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

And here's my best guess, after trying my own account values in a spreadsheet. This value comes closest to what they paid me in promotional interest.

On any day the aggregate exceeds the base value, for instance 2014-03-24

additional promo interest = 
+ 1.3% daily int calculated on the 20k base value. So it's a _constant_ $0.712 on every such day.
+ 2.5% daily int calculated on the new deposits. 10k @ 2.5% = $0.685
- normal daily interest, which is 25k @ 1.3% = -$0.890

And they subtract the normal daily interest because you're already receiving that monthly. Basically in calculating promotional interest they seem to treat your aggregate as a single Interest Plus account, without distinguishing chequing.

Thoughts?


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

You are right, it isn't clear exactly how they calculate the bonus interest. The aggregate stuff seems to mostly be to prevent shifting cash to one account and then claim that the "new" money in that account counts for the promo interest.

I think your basic calculations are correct but it might be easier to think of the bonus interest as just being 1.2% on any amounts deposited after the promo began.

So in your example this would be $10k * 1.2% / 365 daily or $0.3288. From March 24 to June 30 is 7 + 30 + 31 + 30 = 98 days so you should have a promo interest deposit of about $32.21 (maybe 32.22 if they round up). This is assuming there were no other deposits or withdrawals between March 24 and June 30.


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## Butters (Apr 20, 2012)

Aug 08, 2014 INTEREST PROMOTIONAL INTEREST $35.92 

In march I probably had under 1,000 bucks in my accounts 
July 31st (when it ended because they extended it a couple times) I had just over 12,000


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

james4beach said:


> And here's my best guess, after trying my own account values in a spreadsheet. This value comes closest to what they paid me in promotional interest.
> 
> On any day the aggregate exceeds the base value, for instance 2014-03-24
> 
> ...


I am also a PC customer. Seems about right..But I saw that promotion as "smoke and mirrors" right from the start. 

You don't get as much as they advertise overall, because of the way they calculate the interest, and in the end, 
you get far less than what you expected from their advertising, 
especially, if you withdraw any of the money you put in during their promotional period.

Then when they send you the T5 slip, and claim it added to your other income, it could cut down the interest earned even more. 

Great scheme for them to raise lots of cash for their short term loans though.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

carverman said:


> ... You don't get as much as they advertise overall, because of the way they calculate the interest, and in the end, you get far less than what you expected from their advertising, especially, if you withdraw any of the money you put in during their promotional period.


Fair enough ...




carverman said:


> ... Then when they send you the T5 slip, and claim it added to your other income, it could cut down the interest earned even more.


Unless what's reported on the T5 does not match $ for $ what was paid - there's no issue here.
All taxable interest is eventually cut by the income tax owed (ex. 1.3% is paid but won't be the after-tax $ either).

At the end of the day ... more income earned means more taxes but also means more after tax dollars in the taxable account.


Cheers


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I ran calculations at the end of their latest promotion, September 6 - December 15.

I get a number that is much different than what they paid me in promotional interest. I calculated that they owe me $182 according to the contract, and they only paid me $144 which is substantially less than my estimate.

What do you think is my recourse? At this point I want to know exactly how they calculate the promotional interest in day-by-day accounting. Can someone else in this forum run a verification calculation on their own situation?


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Can someone else in this forum run a verification calculation on their own situation?


I did. Mine matched to a penny.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Here are my numbers. On September 24, I deposited $26,000. The balance dropped a bit later on as I paid bills, but it's safe to call it $25,500 still in new deposits (not interest, not shuffling, but totally new deposits) over the period September 24 - December 15.

I was careful to put that new $25,500 only in the chequing account to avoid the confusion caused by them paying out higher daily interest on the savings account.

That's a period of 82 days. At 3.1% interest that should result in 0.031*(82/365)*25500 = $178 interest.
But they only paid out $144


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Goldstone can you show me your methodology? Perhaps I'm still doing this wrong.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

1. Build a spreadsheet with three columns: Date, End of Day Balance, Daily Interest
2. Enter the date and the balance for each day of promotion.
3. Daily Interest calculation: (End of Day Balance) * *0.018* / 365
4. Sum the daily interest column.

*0.018* = 1.8%. That's the difference between promotional rate (3.1%) and regular rate (1.3%). They paid regular interest at the end of each month.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

That's not quite the right methodology for my case because I (deliberately) left all the new money in the chequing account, that does not receive interest. I did this to be able to verify the interest paid out on the new money, before it gets mixed up with interest already paid. i.e. since they pay zero interest in my chequing account, all the new money I put in there should be earning the promo interest.

I stopped at a PC Financial kiosk booth at Superstore, and the guy looked at the account with me and agreed that the interest doesn't seem right. I'll have to phone the call center


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Chequing account does pay interest. 0.25% between 10K and 25K. Not sure if that's enough to explain your discrepancy.

http://www.banking.pcfinancial.ca/mkt/bankaccounts/nofeebankaccount-en.html


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks goldstone. I did factor in the small amount of interest on chequing, but that wasn't the key --

Mystery solved. I'm pretty impressed with the phone reps at PC. It's been 9 years with them and they do a good job retaining me... their calculation was accurate. I was wrong.

The "offer period" was September 6 - Dec 15. Your "new deposits" figure, which they call qualifying balance, is calculated as the *average daily closing balance* during the offer period, that exceeds the starting value. So what's important are net new deposits, but averaged over the period.



> Here are my numbers. On September 24, I deposited $26,000. The balance dropped a bit later on as I paid bills, but it's safe to call it $25,500 still in new deposits


And that's where I tripped up my calculation. I thought I had $25,500 in new deposits. I neglected that the average starts from September 6, so for my account this has a whole bunch of zeros in the average (no new deposits until Sept 24). Thus my net new deposits figure wasn't $25,500 but rather $21,800. Ouch, much less. And voila, matches PC's calculation now.

* This is interesting because the way this is calculated, you don't earn the high interest on the daily balance (as would be intuitive) as we all thought by taking 3.1% / 365. Nope. Instead you're rewarded based on the qualifying balance which is calculated as an average balance Sept - Dec

Lessons learned, nuances of PC's promotions:


 You earn bonus on the average daily balance, so you must bring money in ASAP once the offer starts
 Though it covers a long period (Sept - Dec) you only get credit for new deposits made by a cutoff date, Sept 30 here
 Money you remove reduces the average balance you earn promo on

So to maximize the bonus interest earned, you must deposit money immediately or as close as possible to the start of the offer. And there's no point depositing more money beyond the end of the 'enrolment period' (September 30) since this puts a cap on your net new deposits.

_Optimal example_: offer period starts Sept 6. You immediately transfer in tons of cash on day one, like a one-shot transfer. Your average daily balance is now the highest it can be.

_Sub-optimal example_: it's the end of the month by the time you transfer in money. Your average gets dragged way down; you lose out much more than just the simple interest lost on those days.

It's actually very tricky, overall. The complexity of this is somewhat turning me off from shuffling my money around to chase promotions. But yeah, if you get the money in FAST and EARLY, it works out well.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

Thanks for sharing your observations James, this is a valuable nuance that had slipped under the radar for me and probably everybody else too, bottom line.. PCF can be tricky, example, sometimes you have to apply for the teaser rates and sometimes you don't.

I like to use their bonus rates because I put the funds in my chequing account & like the fact that I can then write a cheque in any situation which calls for quick access to cash, say a downturn in the markets or whatever.

This time though I used the Tangerine one because I hadn't removed all the interest from the PCF acct in time for it to not be new cash.
But the Tangerine teaser rate is better anyways in that the bonus cash is deposited monthly and compounded (at their usual rates), whereas the PCF bonus interest is not paid out until after the bonus period ends.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes I agree it's really excellent that you get the same bonus in the chequing account. Like you, I keep the funds in chequing and it's the best of both worlds: instantly available and still earning the high interest


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

A new PC Promo has started, 2.6% interest for amounts in excess of the *March 31 balance.*

Take note of my calculations above. These promotions pay you much less than you think unless you immediately transfer in a whack of money, very close to the start.

Every day that ticks by brings down your average balance calculation. There's also little point to transferring in "more" after a few weeks. I'd say, if you can transfer in a lot TODAY then by all means do it. If not, no point.


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

Really, a new PCF promotion? 

Edit:
Sorry, I couldn't resist. The point james4beach makes about how the interest is calculated is a good one though. I have this feeling that unless there are big changes in the amount deposited it isn't too big of an issue. Maybe over the weekend I will run some numbers to see if I can confirm that.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4 scoot on over to the tangerine thread nearby, you'll find us OCD types obsessing over the farthings, the centimes & the drachmas, including penny calcs for PCF ...

re drivIng to the PCF ATM to deposit a paper cheque, surely that negates the whole point? now it's necessary to subtract the cost of gas, idk about parking. Plus PCF is only in a few provinces, not everybody lives in YYZland.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

Hey James, I think we're safe as long as we put the money in during the 'enrolment period' on this one, and don't add any afterwards (assuming a zero start balance).

The terms & conditions on this one specify a difference between the 'enrolment period' and the 'offer period'.
The interest is calculated across the entire 'offer period':



> 1. The President's Choice Financial® promotional interest offer (the "Offer") is available to all Eligible Accounts between April 1, 2015 and June 30, 2015 (the "Offer Period").





> 3. The special annual interest rate of 2.6% is a combination of the regular annual interest rate set by President's Choice Financial payable on an Eligible Account balance, plus promotional interest ("Promotional Interest") that is calculated during the Offer Period.


Seems ok to me, but please correct me if you still think I'm wrong; I plan to move a whack of money over next week. (hate all these gobbledeegook T&Cs that seem to change every time but I guess it's part of the game).


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Take note of my calculations above.


james, so if I understand your calculation above....the picture as following...
Promotion is 90 days, from Apr 1 to Jun 31.
If I deposit 100,000 on Apr 1 -> I get truly 2.6% , than means around $650
However, if I deposit 100,000 on May 1 -> because my money will be there only for 60 days and promotional interest is 1.55% , instead of $258 (full 2.6%), I'll get only $172 ) + I get regular 1.05% interest for 60 days period ($175) and total real interest I get = ($172 + $175) = $347 , meaning 2.08%?

If so the case , *PCF is very smart into tricking people!*

mrPPincer,


> that is calculated during the Offer Period.


 - imho, this the catch! later you deposit money from Apr 1 , less will be your promotional interest.... 

From my calculation if you deposit on May 1 , you real interest will be only 2.08%, if you deposit on Apr 20 -> real interest will be 2.25% , (in other words they calculate what is your average balance for 90 days period)....
Thus, if you deposit money after Apr 20, transfer doesn't make sense if you have 2.1% in Tangerine....
but it always good to have opened PCF amount, so for the next promotion, you will be able to transfer money immediately


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^


> ... *If so the case , PCF is very smart into tricking people*!


 ... that or PCF has become smart in picking up on depositors in tricking them/gaming the systems. :wink:


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

surely everybody understands that 2.60% means 2.60% _annualized_ ... of course days lost get subtracted ... hello! are we all back in grade six?


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

They claimed 2.6% so if they're paying less they should expect a class action suit imho.

Sure, I understand that if there are days of zero balance during the enrollment period, or even afterwards, the interest rate should be multiplied by that zero for that day/days, but I don't see anywhere in the T&Cs that they can pay a lower rate of interest on qualifying balances..

If it is in there it's hidden very well, in which case they should still be vulnerable to a class action suit, (which would probably be more damaging for PR than anything).

edit.. 2.6% annualized


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

humble_pie said:


> surely everybody understands that 2.60% means 2.60% _annualized_ ... of course days lost get subtracted ... hello! are we all back in grade six?


Yeah, so the question that I think is the question to ask is whether "average daily balance" is all that different from "interest calculated daily and paid monthly". I will assume that Tangerine doesn't count the monthly interest they pay as part of the eligible balance but that isn't clear to me either.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

True about annualized interest, maybe that is where some of the discrepancy is? Because PCF is not letting the bonus interest compound; they pay it out after the 3 month period is over.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

HP did you read the details that James4Beach posted? This is not just confusing annualized percentage rate...

It's saying that if you miss say 1/5 of the days within the promotional period of 3 months then you only get paid bonus interest on 4/5 of your deposit for 4/5 of the promotional period, because it's the average deposit during the whole period that qualifies. Double Whammy! This is a much weirder, worse, and sneakier offer than your run of the mill promotional interest rate program...

Thanks James, I was thinking about opening a PCF account for this promotion specifically, but since I'm not a current account holder and I'm sure it would take a week or more to get funds into the account even if I called right now, it sounds like I'll be getting hosed anyways. Looks like I'll just be back to parking my money at CDF earning 1.75% until the next tangerine promotion gets announced.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> "average daily balance" is all that different from "interest calculated daily and paid monthly





> Because PCF is not letting the bonus interest compound; they pay it out after the 3 month period is over.


 Exactly! 
Thanks james for pointing this out!

I have to give credit to PCF/CIBC... not many people will move All money into PCF on the first week of promotion.... thus PCF will attract a lot of people from Tangerine, but on average they will give much smaller interest rate than 2.1% from Tangerine  To summirize, PCF/CIBC outsmarted Tangerine!
So, buy CIBC stock!


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

I'm still not so sure there's a problem, the compounding over 3 months should not amount to much, definitely not half a percent (annualized).
If PCF is actually paying significantly less than what they claim it has to be about more than just the difference in the compounding I think.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

The point is , if you deposit money on May 1st, you expect to get 1.55% promotional (2.6% total) for May and June. In reality, you will get only 66% of 1.55% promotional for May and June (because you didn't have money there on April), so total 2.08 interest


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

peterk said:


> HP did you read the details that James4Beach posted? This is not just confusing annualized percentage rate...
> 
> It's saying that if you miss say 1/5 of the days within the promotional period of 3 months then you only get paid bonus interest on 4/5 of your deposit for 4/5 of the promotional period, because it's the average deposit during the whole period that qualifies. Double Whammy! This is a much weirder, worse, and sneakier offer than your run of the mill promotional interest rate program



i suppose you're right :biggrin: drat those OCD farthing/drachma paranoid tea leaves :tongue-new:

do you think we should report it to the mounties & call for the F-18s to bomb PCF HQ :eek2: they are so much more Evil than those naughty canadian lady senators :hopelessness:


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

peterk said:


> It's saying that if you miss say 1/5 of the days within the promotional period of 3 months then you only get paid bonus interest on 4/5 of your deposit for 4/5 of the promotional period, because it's the average deposit during the whole period that qualifies. Double Whammy! This is a much weirder, worse, and sneakier offer than your run of the mill promotional interest rate program...


I've read the terms and conditions multiple times now, and it seems to me if they're doing the above it's definitely illegal as well as really sleazy, but who am I to say, I'm no lawyer


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

The Tangerine promotional interest payments don't compound either. You only get compounding on the regular 1.05 rate.


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

mrPPincer said:


> I'm still not so sure there's a problem, the compounding over 3 months should not amount to much, definitely not half a percent (annualized).
> If PCF is actually paying significantly less than what they claim it has to be about more than just the difference in the compounding I think.


I think the compounding over the two monthly payouts that will qualify (May 1 and June 1) won't be that big a difference.



peterk said:


> It's saying that if you miss say 1/5 of the days within the promotional period of 3 months then you only get paid bonus interest on 4/5 of your deposit for 4/5 of the promotional period, because it's the average deposit during the whole period that qualifies. Double Whammy! This is a much weirder, worse, and sneakier offer than your run of the mill promotional interest rate program...


This is the heart of the issue. My question is do you really only get 4/5ths of the bonus for 4/5ths of the period? I need to take a look at the fine print but I would assume that because they do "average daily balance" that means that the daily interest rate should be calculated as (2.5%/365)*91 (April = 30 days, May = 31 days, June = 30 days = 91 days total).

Edit: The "fine print" page here: http://www.banking.pcfinancial.ca/mkt/common/promos/non-registered-2015-spring-en.html does not talk about average daily balance. I think the CSR mentioned that when I signed up by calling in. Now I need to check the email they sent me...


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> I was thinking about opening a PCF account for this promotion specifically, but since I'm not a current account holder and I'm sure it would take a week or more to get funds into the account even if I called right now, it sounds like I'll be getting hosed anyways. Looks like I'll just be back to parking my money at CDF earning 1.75% until the next tangerine promotion gets announced.


 Wait! Tangerine already announce 2.1% promotion 
I already opened PCF account yesterday.... tomorrow will deposit some cash (cheque), will do deposits until Apr 20 (this will my deadline)  
But in any case, it's ggod to have PCF account active, in order to use 100% next promo...


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> This is the heart of the issue. My question is do you really only get 4/5ths of the bonus for 4/5ths of the period?


 This is how I understand it... and this is why they paying you promo rate after promo if finished and not monthly like Tangerine



> doing the above it's definitely illegal as well as really sleazy


 sleazy, but not illegal  they have this condition in fine print


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

tomorrow is a national banking holiday


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

Ok, so here is the section that is interesting, I added the bold emphasis:


> .	The Offer applies to all net new deposits made during the Enrolment Period to Eligible Accounts, not to exceed the lesser of (i) $500,000 in the aggregate, across all of an account holder's Eligible Accounts; and (ii) the aggregate net new deposits to Eligible Accounts made during the Enrolment Period, *and is calculated based on the portion of the Eligible Account's average daily closing balance during the Offer Period that exceeds the closing balance as at March 31, 2015 (the "Additional Balance").* The daily closing balance in any Eligible Account opened during the Enrolment Period will be deemed to be $0.00 until the date a deposit is made in the Eligible Account. If an Eligible Account is overdrawn as at March 31, 2015, the March 31, 2015 closing balance is deemed to be $0.00. Promotional Interest will not be paid on funds that are transferred from an existing Eligible Account to another existing or new Eligible Account.


There isn't anything there on exactly how the interest is calculated, just what the calculation is based on.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

gibor said:


> sleazy, but not illegal  they have this condition in fine print


Not as I read the fine print..

I think two problems with James' calculation were 1. he did not subtract the 0.25% basic interest in his chequing account from the then 3.1% total (including promo and basic) because he didn't know his chequing account paid interest when he did the calculations.
2. he didn't factor in that the 3.1% was an annualized 3.1%, which is less than 3.1% divided by 365 multiplied by the number of days.
3rd factor might be that PCF may not have counted the first day when the funds were deposited or the last day when they were removed, but not sure about that.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> tomorrow is a national banking holiday


It will still show up in his account because he's using the local ATM.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

to paraphrase everyone else on here ... i don't know ... i'm not sure ... it will have an ATM date stamp ... but will an account officially record the transaction as of the machine receipt ... idk ... national bank holidays are normally respected ... but i'm no lawyer ... how do you yourself truly know for sure ...


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

PCF is being very tricky, but the terms and conditions for the current offer do say that interest is calculated on "*average daily closing balance*".

Yes if your new money is only there for 4/5 of the period, you only get the 4/5 of the bonus. Bonus interest is only calculated on your average balance, counting from the start of the period. Thus the only way to get a good result from the PCF bonus is to transfer in money immediately at the start.

The intuitive thing we all assume, but is not true, is that you'd get the high interest on every day your balance exceeds the starting balance. This is NOT what happens! They use several paragraphs of tough-to-parse legal text to obscure this. A lawyer might argue the contract is written to be deceptive.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

mrPPincer said:


> Not as I read the fine print..
> 
> I think two problems with James' calculation were 1. he did not subtract the 0.25% basic interest in his chequing account from the then 3.1% total (including promo and basic) because he didn't know his chequing account paid interest when he did the calculations.
> 2. he didn't factor in that the 3.1% was an annualized 3.1%, which is less than 3.1% divided by 365 multiplied by the number of days.
> 3rd factor might be that PCF may not have counted the first day when the funds were deposited or the last day when they were removed, but not sure about that.


In my detailed calculations I did all of that. I made a detailed spreadsheet and I certainly knew it was annualized. The answer was provided by CIBC / PCF, they told me how it was calculated, and using their methodology (which I explained here) it exactly matched the actual interest I got.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

If I recall correctly I've deposited via ATM with other banks on non-business days and logged in immediately afterwards to see it there.. 
don't remember if I did so with PCF (CIBC)


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

mrPPincer said:


> I've deposited via ATM with other banks on non-business days and logged in immidiately afterwards to see it there..
> don't remember if I did so with PCF (CIBC)


It should be! As far as you press "deposit" on ATM, your cheque amount automatically reflected on your account


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

To make it easier to read, here is the trimmed relevant text from the terms & condition (my link on page 2 of this thread) that shows how interest is only calculated on the average:



> [Bonus interest] is calculated based on the portion of the Eligible Account's average daily closing balance during [April 1 - June 30] that exceeds the closing balance as at March 31, 2015


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

Ok James, thanks, I take your word for it then.
The wording is definitely written to be deceptive then imo..

I guess I'll stay with Tangerine for this one, (maybe put a few buck into PCF as another test).


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

As I understand what you quoted James, they do not specifically say they are doing the sleazy move that it appears they are doing..

OFC bonus interest is based on daily closing balances..
They also say the interest rate is 2.6% annualized


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

afaik the chartered schedule 1 banks respect bank holidays according to the bank act ... transactions placed or attempted on a bank holiday are duly recorded on the next official banking day.

who knows what rules the non-charter online banks follow.

btw if banking 24 hours/7 days a week/365 days a year works so perfectly, why did gibor state in an earlier post that he always avoids interbank transactions across weekends ...


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

mrPPincer said:


> Ok James, thanks, I take your word for it then.
> The wording is definitely written to be deceptive then imo..
> 
> I guess I'll stay with Tangerine for this one, (maybe put a few buck into PCF as another test).


From my calculation.... you will get interest better than in Tangerine , if you deposit money into PCF before Apr 30.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> btw if banking 24 hours/7 days a week/365 days a year works so perfectly, why did gibor state in an earlier post that he always avoids interbank transactions across weekends ...


gibor stated it ONLY for online transfers between banks and NOT on depositing cheque/Cash via ATM


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

gibor said:


> From my calculation.... you will get interest better than in Tangerine , if you deposit money into PCF before Apr 30.


hmm, thanks, maybe I will reconsider.. Tangerine link not active yet so I have time to decide.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

gibor said:


> gibor stated it ONLY for online transfers between banks and NOT on depositing cheque/Cash via ATM



don't forget to subtract cost of driving round-trip special to the ATM machine including management time estimated at $100/hr plus cost of gas ... think i said this b4


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

mrPPincer said:


> hmm, thanks, maybe I will reconsider.. Tangerine link not active yet so I have time to decide.


Also, who knows when new Tangerine promotion will start?! It can be Jul 1 or Aug 1 on new money only....so when PCF/Tangerine promotion ends, i will just park cash in PT


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> don't forget to subtract cost of driving round-trip special to the ATM machine including management time estimated at $100/hr plus cost of gas ... think i said this b4


No worries! Superstore with PCF ATM machine is located exactly on my route from work to home (I need to drive additional 20 meters ) and in any case every Saturday I'm shopping in this Superstore


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

Humble, dunno where gibor lives but CIBC has an ATM in many/most small towns all across Canada, I have one three blocks away, a few minutes walking distance.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

use of cibc ATMs is serendipity for PCF clients

however other virtual banks don't have good ATM access

tangerine has better now that scotia bought them, idk about PT & oaken, not to speak of the provincial credit unions, ATMs in manitoba are a long long drive

my point was & remains that folks using a sched 1 chartered bank as their bank hub for virtual bank accounts are going to run smack into the national banking holiday tomorrow. Transactions not processed by cutoff tonight will show on monday i do believe.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

In regards to the manitoba CUs, they have ATM agreements with other CUs across the country, & CUs are common in many areas, I have one of those a few blocks away as well


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> do you think we should report it to the mounties & call for the F-18s to bomb PCF HQ :eek2: they are so much more Evil than those naughty canadian lady senators :hopelessness:


Haha, yes sometimes it seems a bit trifling to earn an extra 0.3% or whatever for 2 or 3 months only. Maybe 50 or 100 bucks gained all in all, but I'd still say it's better than nothing, so long as it doesn't consume too much of your time.. Aren't you the vocal one on here about the F-18 worthiness of the those sneaky evil brokers that charge 2% currency conversion on a USD->CAD dividend payment of 3%? That's only a 0.06% issue! :biggrin:


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

details please, about all the manitoba credit union hookups that you say are working reliably across canada these days ...

generally speaking banking is a federally regulated industry. This would include provincial cross-border issues for local financial institutions. I'm not sure about provincial credit unions. We're back to i'm not sure, idk, i'm no lawyer.

in any event i have difficulty believing that, right now, manitoba credit unions (plural) have easy ATM connections with networks of credit unions all across canada ...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

peterk said:


> Aren't you the vocal one on here about the F-18 worthiness of the those sneaky evil brokers that charge 2% currency conversion on a USD->CAD dividend payment of 3%? That's only a 0.06% issue! :biggrin:



the broker hidden FX issue is billions of dollars charged by all brokers against nearly all clients without telling them properly. It's been going on for more than 20 years. 

the issue is much bigger than a few fairly new virtual banks recently being coy about their promotions.

just with respect to the dividends, the brokers are charging 1.50% of actual cash or DRIP dividends paid by 21 canadian companies, nearly all of them giant well-known corporations whose shares are held by millions of unsuspecting canadians. It's not a 0.06% issue, i've no clue where you're getting that figure.

dear boy you should be thanking me that i've worked so hard to publicize this issue, here in this forum :biggrin:

the campaign has paid off, 2 discount brokers tell me that they're now getting noticeable numbers of calls from clients who ask that their potash, magna, goldcorp, thomson shares, etc be journalled to USD account. The brokers are not even always sure why they are getting these calls ... but they are getting them.

evidently it's talked about at the big green that a next software step will be to enable clients to select the account in which they wish their shares to be held. This will be a real breakthrough.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> details please, about all the manitoba credit union hookups that you say are working reliably across canada these days ...
> 
> generally speaking banking is a federally regulated industry. This would include provincial cross-border issues for local financial institutions. I'm not sure about provincial credit unions. We're back to i'm not sure, idk, i'm no lawyer.
> 
> in any event i have difficulty believing that, right now, manitoba credit unions (plural) have easy ATM connections with networks of credit unions all across canada ...


There's two CU networks, THE EXCHANGE® or the ACCULINK® ATM network, details in link below;
https://www.creditunionsofontario.com/surcharge-free-atm-network
I currently have accounts with 3 manitoba online CUs, Hubert, Implicity, and Accelerate.
When I make an ATM deposit at any of them (thru my local CU ATM) I can go home, log in and see the money here in my home province (not manitoba).


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

neat! what does the (not manitoba) detail mean, though


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

lol you might be able to guess my current home province by looking at the linked page


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i see what you mean, i had first read your sentence somewhat differently, it's all just a question of semantics

the way i'd understood your sentence initially was that there was an ontario receipt or version showing the transaction, but the official manitoba-based account showed the transaction as pending somehow but *not* completed yet ...

ya'll realize that most of these networks don't work in quebec, the AMF has these archaic medieval rules here, rules having to do with language & residency.

i thought i glimpsed that PCF does not carry on business in quebec or the maritimes, though? only in certain provinces from ontario westward


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

Ah yeah, I see the source of confusion after re-reading it.

Some of the online banks operate in quebec and some don't, I think all the main ones are ok in the maritimes.

Of the online banks some do operate there, incl. Accelerate, Achieva, ICICI, Implicity, Maxa, Oaken, Outlook, People's Trust, Tangerine.
Ones that don't operate in quebec are Bridgewater, Canadian Direct, Canadian Tire, Hubert, PCF.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

*Not sure if that only means Quebec residents not being allowed to have an account with those online banks, & the ATMs still work for people passing through, but it seems like that would be the case though.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

was drining home, stopped at PC ATM and deposited cash around 7.30pm....logged in now and I see this money on mu account.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I had some ridiculously bad timing. I just transferred 10k into PCF at the end of March. It was an electronic fund transfer but I'm pretty sure the time stamp showed it arriving before March 31.

sigh.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I had some ridiculously bad timing. I just transferred 10k into PCF at the end of March. It was an electronic fund transfer but I'm pretty sure the time stamp showed it arriving before March 31.
> 
> sigh.


than transfer to Tangerine....2.!% much better than 1.05%


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

mrPPincer said:


> Ah yeah, I see the source of confusion after re-reading it.
> 
> Some of the online banks operate in quebec and some don't, I think all the main ones are ok in the maritimes.
> 
> ...



one or 2 on your list that "do" are actually operating in quebec somewhat dodgily, without the required license from the AMF du quebec.

although individual network transactions for these accounts flow OK, it's kind of a landmine issue that might blow up some day. Who would get blamed are not the individual quebec residents who had opened accounts with the non-licensed virtual banks. It's the banks themselves that would be penalized, i do believe.

there are very high costs associated with running an above-the-board licensed quebec financial operation. All documentation has to be translated into french. All services have to be available in both languages. The enterprise has to maintain a salaried physical office in the province.

a small out-of-province business can often see, readily enough, that it will never obtain enough market from quebec to justify those high costs, so what it does, sensibly enough, is avoid quebec.

as for the dodgy net-based few that operate here in the grey zone, not saying any more ...

i'd like to add, though, that i'm sure that out-of-province visitors to quebec are fully served at ATMs & even in branches or offices when these are available. What the AMF du quebec seeks to prevent are financial accounts held by permanent residents of quebec with insitutions that are not licensed by the AMF.


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

Ok, I am trying to make sense of some of the numbers james4beach presented for the Sept-Dec 2014 promotion. That promotion was a 3.1% rate until December 15, 2014 for new deposits between September 6, 2014 and September 30, 2014. That is 100 days total if funds were deposited on September 6. Unfortunately james4beach didn't make a contribution until September 24, missing out on 18 days. Also james4beach made a contribution to a chequing account to make the promotional interest payment a little easier to figure out (a greater portion of the 3.1% would have been promotional interest).

So in james4beach's case we have:
Deposit on Sept 24 (roughly $25,500)
Days of promotion left: 82
Days of promotion missed: 18
Interest paid out: $144
Interest calculated by james4beach: $178
Average daily balance james4beach was told by PC Financial: $20,800

If I run the calculations I get an average daily balance of $20,900 (($25,500*82+$0*18)/100=20900) which is pretty close.
If I calculate (3.1%-0.25%)/365*100*20800 I get $162.41 which doesn't match up with james4beach's $144 (the -.25% is taking off the interest rate in the chequing account that is the regular rate and doesn't count for the bonus). Using the full 3.1% I get $177.59.

Also if I calculate $25,500 * (3.1% - 0.25%)/365*82 I get $163.26. $25,500 * 3.1%/365*82 = $177.59

So I don't understand where the $144 comes from. Running the calculation backwards with that $144 number I get and average daily balance of around $18,442 using the 3.1%-0.25% rate or $16954 using the full 3.1% rate.

I think that only james4beach can shed some light on where I might have some of these calculations wrong. They mentioned that after calling into PCF they managed to get their calculations to match up with the interest they were actually paid.

Edit: (updated Edit: read further in this thread for details but it seems like no one else had interest paid out that was as far off as james4beach's interest was. So the speculation about counting days where the balance was above the baseline balance is probably incorrect).

I can get the $144 number by doing what others have suggested in this thread: taking the average daily balance and multiplying that by the daily interest for the number of days that the balance was above the baseline balance. So in this case $20,800*(3.1%-0.25%)/365*82 = $144.86.

That is pretty slimy but it also implies that you can manipulate things to your advantage. If they are only counting days where the balance was above the baseline and you don't have a large lump sum available early in the promotion but you will later all you need to do is keep your balance above the baseline by even $1 for that day to count in the final calculation.

I think this is probably worth a phone call to get them to explain this explicitly (that interest is calculated on the average daily balance above the baseline over the entire period but only paid for days that the balance was above the baseline). It could also be worth a formal complaint because it is very misleading. (link for future reference: http://www.fcac-acfc.gc.ca/Eng/resources/lodgeComplaint/Pages/Complain-Outilder-1.aspx?CHPID=102)


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

mrPPincer said:


> There's two CU networks, THE EXCHANGE® or the ACCULINK® ATM network, details in link below;
> 
> https://www.creditunionsofontario.com/surcharge-free-atm-network
> I currently have accounts with 3 manitoba online CUs, Hubert, Implicity, and Accelerate.
> When I make an ATM deposit at any of them (thru my local CU ATM) I can go home, log in and see the money here in my home province (not manitoba).



i gazed somewhat idly at a couple manitoba CUs in your list (longer list upthread) & my attention was drawn to Accelerate. 

not only did they have one of the highest rates for a plain vanilla (no promo) savings account - the rate was 1.95%frf - but it seems they're from the mennonite community. This rates them high in my book.

the unsung mennonite community in canada has given us some great public-minded civic leaders - the late Arthur Kroeger comes to mind - plus i believe it was the mennonite community in ontario that pioneered the very first suite of socially responsible investment funds, many years ago.

i haven't been able to find Accelerate or its parent on the AMF directory of licensed financial institutions. However, this is meaningless because the directory is notoriously glitchy. I'll ask the AMF next week, they have better internal search tools & will be able to pick up a listing. In the meantime, my belief is that, being a mennonite organization in its debut, Accelerate has done everything by the book.

serendipity is hearing that there are some CU links across canada. Previously - it was some years ago - i'd only heard of manitoba credit unions being used by a quebec businesswoman & what she said at the time was that the connection via canada post only was quite awkward & tiresome, although she was very happy with the service.

it's like using your chartered bank's LOC to obtain free chequing & other bank services, a tip from cmf members that was explored recently. Now manitoba credit unions that can be easily accessed are another useful tip in cmf forum.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> taking the average daily balance and multiplying that by the daily interest for the number of days that the balance was above the baseline balance.


 yeap, looks like another "catch"  and if you cannot deposit big amount right away, deposit $1... I wasn't sure, but in any case deposited $5 bill on Apr 1...


> probably worth a phone call


 you can try , but from my previous experience with all Canadian institutions, they will just read you Terms and Conditions and won't give you any explanation beyond it... or you need to ask to speak directly with regional sales manager


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

What I don't understand... why PC declared May 15 deadline?! Hence later you deposit, less interest you get....

Also, I'm wondering , if it's make difference on which account (checking or saving ) better to have money?
Apparently, 2.6% applicable to both... if money on Saving , you get fixed 1.55% (assuming you hold money for full period), if on Checking -> promotional rate may vary from 2.55% to 2.1% depends on $ amount...


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

gibor said:


> yeap, looks like another "catch"  and if you cannot deposit big amount right away, deposit $1... I wasn't sure, but in any case deposited $5 bill on Apr 1...


If this is how they're playing, I decided to do the same.

Turns out the local CIBC ATM only allows withdrawals, so today I drove to the next town and deposited $300 cash just to get the ball rolling, (and yes it was there when I got home and logged in just now) 
Better two days late than a week or so, probably worth the gas if it means I get close to the full 2.6% on total deposits by doing so.

We'll see.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Turns out the local CIBC ATM only allows withdrawals


I had the same issue with CIBC ATM, I was told by CIBC stuff that this is new ATM where you don't need envelope, but deposit cash directly....so I went to PC ATM (and it's raelly close ). When I talked to PCF regarding CIBC ATM, rep said that very soom PCF will be able to deposit also into new CIBC ATM


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'll try to remember to do this, I have a detailed spreadsheet on my computer for that December promotion.

But I've already "voted with my wallet" on this issue and am not rushing to transfer money to PC just for the promos


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

mrPPincer said:


> Turns out the local CIBC ATM only allows withdrawals, so today I drove to the next town and deposited $300 cash just to get the ball rolling, (and yes it was there when I got home and logged in just now) .


Today is a statutory holiday. Is your deposit dated Apr 3 (today) or Apr 6 (Monday)?


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

dang.. Apr 6 (Monday)


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

monday after the bank holiday, didn't folks drive this way already?

(subtract cost of gas from promo reward)


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

yep :frown:

still, the link from Tangerine won't be set up for a couple business days and then there's the likely 2 days in transit, so I would have likely made an ATM deposit anyways in order to start PCF counting the days for their whacky system.

car battery was dead too so with any luck running the car recharged it to salvagable condition (fingers crossed).


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

no matter what, it's a fun sport & the thread teaches everybody

me i am just sitting at the orange citrus like a bump on a log


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

mrPPincer said:


> dang.. Apr 6 (Monday)


interesting....I deposited on Friday after banks got closed (7.45pm) and transaction indicated Apr 2


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

gibor said:


> interesting....I deposited on Friday after banks got closed (7.45pm) and transaction indicated Apr 2


April 2 was thursday, understandable mistake if you forgot, if friday was an early weekend for you 
My paper ATM slip indicates friday Apr03/15 16:09, but the PCF banking site has it post-dated for monday April 6th.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

Thanks for the heads up on the new promo. Tangerine is maxed so I figure why not play the game to it's fullest! The lady at the pavilion was quite nice and she was well aware of the "promotion" chasing game. She actually provided me a few tips - using a joint account to capture the new promo rates as they become available, etc.

Considering it could take up to 7 days for my void cheque to be cleared and according to all the previous posts (rate calculations), it looks like I ought to head over to the ATM on Sunday or Monday in order to make my deposit.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Sorry folks it looks like I deleted my verification spreadsheet, after I was satisfied with PC's explanation... I probably should have kept that


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Do you mind sharing those tips?!


> using a joint account to capture the new promo rates as they become available, etc.


 what is the difference between joint and individual in this case?


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

I didn't pay much attention at it doesn't apply to me but she suggested setting up a "joint account", that way when the new promo is introduced you can transfer the funds to the joint account holder and take advantage of the new promo rate without having to add new money. She told me that she knows a few people that do this and they're able to stay in the promotions with no new money by simply transferring the money from one account holder to the other. This would however not work if both account holders are doing the promo at the same time!

I'm not familiar with joint accounts and how they work so perhaps someone else could shed some light on this.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Sorry folks it looks like I deleted my verification spreadsheet, after I was satisfied with PC's explanation... I probably should have kept that


It's ok, I have some numbers from the same PCF promo period, but I have little experience using spreadsheets, I can do xirr but that's about all I've used them for so far.

@OxCC, would you be interested in running a calculation on these numbers for comparison?

Dec 19, 2014 INTEREST PROMOTIONAL INTEREST $382.75 $382.75

Dec 11, 2014 MISCELLANEOUS PAYMENTS Hubert In MTA $57,773.31 $0.00

Nov 28, 2014 INTEREST $17.52 $57,773.31

Oct 31, 2014 INTEREST $18.30 $57,755.79

Oct 15, 2014 ABM WITHDRAWAL $500.00 $57,737.49

Oct 14, 2014 ABM WITHDRAWAL $500.00 $58,237.49

Sep 30, 2014 INTEREST $9.96 $58,737.49

Sep 19, 2014 EFT CREDIT Hubert MTA $8,300.18 $58,727.53

Sep 12, 2014 EFT CREDIT Hubert MTA $49,857.35 $50,427.35

Sep 11, 2014 ABM DEPOSIT $570.00 $570.00


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

PCF chequing acct. interest rates are/were:

On the portion of balance between: Annual Interest Rate (%)
$0.00 - $1,000.00 0.05
$1,000.01 - $5,000.00 0.10
$5,000.01 - $10,000.00 0.15
$10,000.01 - $25,000.00 0.25
$25,000.01 and up 0.50


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

I will try to run the numbers later today.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

Thanks!


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

I participated in the last PCF promotion that ran from Sep 6, 2014 to Dec 15, 2014.

Promotion details are available here:
https://www.highinterestsavings.ca/...financial-launches-3-1-new-net-deposit-promo/

I had zero balance at PCF on Sep 5. My balance remained at zero from Sep 6 to Sep 16.

I made my first transfer in on Sep 17. I made multiple additional transfers and deposits between Sep 17 and Sep 23.

I placed all funds in the Interest Plus savings account. It paid regular interest (1.3%) at the end of each month, plus bonus interest (1.8%) at the end of promotion in December.

I have a tracking spreadsheet to verify the bonus interest. I explained my methodology upthread, in post #12:



GoldStone said:


> 1. Build a spreadsheet with three columns: Date, End of Day Balance, Daily Interest
> 2. Enter the date and the balance for each day of promotion.
> 3. Daily Interest calculation: (End of Day Balance) * *0.018* / 365
> 4. Sum the daily interest column.
> ...


In other words, I used the common-sense method to calculate the bonus. I didn't bother to do the hokey-pokey with the average balances.

*My calculation matched the actual bonus I received to a penny.*

I am not convinced that PCF is doing anything nefarious. I'm too lazy to check other posters' calculations. I know that PCF didn't cheat me. I got the exact amount I expected to get.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

GoldStone said:


> In other words, I used the common-sense method to calculate the bonus. I didn't bother to do the hokey-pokey with the average balances.
> 
> *My calculation matched the actual bonus I received to a penny.*
> 
> I am not convinced that PCF is doing anything nefarious. I'm too lazy to check other posters' calculations. I know that PCF didn't cheat me. I got the exact amount I expected to get.


Using your method .... IF you deposit 100K from day1 -> you get in interest $640, if you keep in Tangerine until deadline May 12 and then deposit into PCF -> $587, if you leave money in Tangerine -> you get $518

So, looks like in any case if you depositl money into PCF before deadline, you get higher interest....

To be on save side, I deposited small amount of cash on day 1 (so my balance will be always above baseline) and will deposit big cash until deadline.... 
Do you guys deposit into PCF more than 100K CDIC insurance? I;m planning to... don't believe PCF will go bankrupt until June 30  especially if CIBC owns it


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I was not smart enough to deposit (transfer) $1 on Apr 1 so the clock will start ticking on Apr 6th for me when the first of the big transfers takes place. I would not have an issue putting in more than $100k in PCF for 3 months, though I won't since I can take advantage of the BMO Savings Builders Account promo for 2.5% more easily (direct transfer of BMO IL HISA money over to the BMO's Builder account for its promo).


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> I was not smart enough to deposit (transfer) $1 on Apr 1 so the clock will start ticking on Apr 6th for me when the first of the big transfers takes place.


I'm not convinced that Apr 1 deposit is necessary. As I explained in my previous post, the last PCF promo didn't penalize me for making a "late" first deposit. I can't comment on what happened to other posters, and I'm not here to defend PCF. All I know is that *my* bonus interest was exactly as I expected... right to the last penny.


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

mrPPincer, I can't seem to get any numbers that match the interest you were paid out.

The closest I can get is using the average daily balance and then multiplying that daily balance by the 96 days that the balance was above the balance on September 5 (which was 0 in your case). But in that case, my calculations come up with interest of $375.93, $6.82 less than you were paid. I suspect that you were actually paid interest of around $6.43 on December 31 which would bring this calculation very close.

If I use the average daily balance multiplied by 3.1%/365 * 100 (for the 100 days of the promotion) and then take out the interest that was paid (and the calculated Dec 31 interest) I get $387.06 interest.

Both of those calculations include the interest paid as a new deposit but excluding that should only make about 20 cents difference.

These calculations seem to contradict what Goldstone has reported. Without getting confirmation of the calculation details directly from PCF I am just speculating and reverse engineering the calculations and I may have done any number of things wrong. I didn't do the calculation the same that Goldstone did. I might try to do that later.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

Dec 31, 2014 INTEREST $5.85 $388.60

sorry, forgot to include that 

Thanks for looking into this OxCC

edit: I didn't get new money into the account until Sept 11, that's 5 days late,
then I withdrew all on Dec 11, so including Dec 11-Dec 15, that's another 5 days of zero balance,
for a total of 10 days, right?

So if the promo period was Sept 6 - Dec 15 inclusive, that's 101 days, looks like I was only in for 90 days, not 96, does that help?


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

Ok, simple calculation with the calculator, total interest paid (regular plus promo) =$434.38
3.1%/365*91 days= 0.007728767..

Average balance PCF presumably used should then roughly (ignoring compounding & annualization) =$434.38/0.007728767..
=$56,203.01

I'll add the balance for each of the 91 days and divide by 91 and see if it matches, next post


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

The number that makes things the closest is 96 days of daily interest on the average daily balance over the whole 100 days. But you pointed out an error in my calculations, I was thinking that it was taking off the 5 days days at the beginning of the promo. I actually used the 4 days at the end by accident.

It could be that Goldstone's calculation will make the numbers line up exactly but because of that tiered interest on the chequing account it is very painstaking to figure out the exact interest. Let me see if I can do that calculation. Ok, if I do that calculation I get the same as the average daily balance * daily interest rate - "regular" interest paid calculation.

Looking a little bit closer at my numbers above I said $387.06 for the average balance * 3.1%/365 * 100 days minus the interest that was paid, taking the $5.85 off of that we get really close to the $382.75 actually paid. The problem is I can't reproduce that number now and I can't remember how I got it earlier today. It should be the same as Goldstone's calculation but it isn't.

Here are some of my numbers:
I get an average daily balance of $51,271.42. 3.1% interest over 100 days gives $439.28 in interest. $45.78 in regular interest plus $5.85 = $51.63 was paid out. So $439.28-51.63 = $387.64, or $4.89 under what you were actually paid. Also, that $439.28 in interest comes out the same as Goldstone's method to 7 decimal places.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

I didn't get cheated

Going by closing balances;

$570 (for one day, initial deposit), plus
$50,427.35*7 (7 days) plus
58,727.53*11
58,737.49*14
58,237.49*1
57,737.49*16
57.755.79*28
57,773.31*13
----------------
=5,172,139.64

5,172,139.64 / 91 days 
= $56,836.70 average dollars in the account per day for 91 days, including the regular interest payments.



Average daily balance = $56,836.70
Daily interest, 3.1%/365*91 days * $56,836.70 = 439.28
Actual interest paid = $434.38

So I was paid $4.90 less than I would have.

434.38/439.28*3.1% = 3.06542% actual interest 
or 1.115/100ths less than when calculating without factoring in annualization.


edit 2: The 3.06542% is an annualized number..
3.06542% / 12 = 0.25545% per month
multiply 1 by 1.0025545 12 times and you get 3.1%, problem solved.


*Done!* g'night all, happy easter / passover


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

Yeah, based on those numbers I get 434.37 total interest over the 90 days which is pretty close to your actual (the extra cent you got was probably from having the $382.75 in the account for the last 16 days of December). So the thing I was missing before was the average balance over 90 days, not 100 days.

The only thing I see wrong with your numbers is that there should be 16 days for the 57737.49 balance, not 15. That change gives an average balance over 90 days of 57468.24 and interest of 439.27 for those 90 days.

I don't think we had enough information to do this calculation on james4beach's numbers.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

^you're right, but that make it 91 days, so I'll redo it and edit the above post for 91 days, thanks


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

0xCC, how did you calculate 434.37 total interest over 91 days? If there's an equation that actually calculates 434.37, that would be promising, but I can't replicate that.

We may have a series of errors that are over-correcting one with another. For instance the monthly compounding rate above is not right. If doing it that way you must do 1.031^(1/12) ... that again throws off your interest total even more. And why monthly compounding? Why not daily compounding? We really have too many fudge factors here and small choices, each of which can push the result a few dollars either way. It's very hard to tell what's right.

Spreadsheet, and you can download using File | Download As
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KxzvJXaesmhWmpYvahlkdni2xp7fGG6l1EiZn4k7L4g/edit?usp=sharing

^ I've used a spreadsheet to at least calculate some of these things, like daily compounding rate, accurately (a spreadsheet will use many decimal places internally even though it just displays a couple). Leaving aside Goldstone's method (since we can't calculate that tiered regular interest), the way I see it we currently have two different methods:

*Method #1* -- which you guys are working on here -- is an average daily balance only for the days with non-zero new deposits. We have 91 days here. i.e. no penalty for late deposit. You're also assuming daily interest uses a compounding rate, not just 3.1%/365. When I use the daily compounding rate, calculated precisely as 1.031 to the power of 1/365, I get a result within $1.76 of actual.

*Method #2* -- what I think PC is describing as the average over the whole 100 day period -- has a lower average balance but more days of daily interest, and I'm using 3.1%/365. I get a result within $0.55 of actual, which seems closer.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> For instance the monthly compounding rate above is not right. If doing it that way you must do 1.031^(1/12) ... that again throws off your interest total even more. And why monthly compounding? Why not daily compounding?



James, to get an annualized 3.1% for a monthly compounding product you get a number lower than 3.1% / 12.
It just so happens that the actual interest payments were less by that amount (possibly a little less but that would be attibuted to the compounding of the small amount of regular interest in months 2 &3.

I used the interest I got and compared it to the one I calculated for a 3.1% (lump-sum-end of-year-3.1) payment and calculated to see if that worked out to the same amount for 12 compounded payments and it did.

Why use monthly compounding? 
Because the regular interest is compounded monthly.

(Even though the special interest is actually compounded only after 3 months, but that number (the 3.1% annual, adjusted down to 3.06542% annualized for annualization of monthly payments) seems to be the number PCF is using from my reverse calculations).


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

To sum up the last few messages, we have no evidence that PCF is cheating its customers. We can quibble about different calculation methods, but that's just splitting hairs. They all come to within a few dollars of each other.

James, you wrote this back in December (post #8):



james4beach said:


> I ran calculations at the end of their latest promotion, September 6 - December 15.
> 
> I get a number that is much different than what they paid me in promotional interest. I calculated that they owe me $182 according to the contract, and they only paid me $144 which is substantially less than my estimate.


James, you are the only poster seeing such a large discrepancy between the estimate and the actual. Me thinks you should go back to your records and verify them again. Chances are there is an error hiding in there somewhere.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> ... I can take advantage of the BMO Savings Builders Account promo for 2.5% more easily (direct transfer of BMO IL HISA money over to the BMO's Builder account for its promo).



this is the information jewel that got lost in the blizzard of nano-calculations upthread.

parties who have electronic connection to or close to BMO network can fund this appealing 2.50% promotional account without having to drive to ATMs in next towns or parking to deposit tiny cheques.

seems to require a branch visit to open a SB account, though


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> seems to require a branch visit to open a SB account, though


Not if you are already a BMO IL client with a linked chequing account (which comes with the BMO IL account if one wants it). I opened a SB account in 5 minutes online yesterday.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

mrPPincer said:


> James, to get an annualized 3.1% for a monthly compounding product you get a number lower than 3.1% / 12.
> It just so happens that the actual interest payments were less by that amount (possibly a little less but that would be attibuted to the compounding of the small amount of regular interest in months 2 &3.
> 
> I used the interest I got and compared it to the one I calculated for a 3.1% (lump-sum-end of-year-3.1) payment and calculated to see if that worked out to the same amount for 12 compounded payments and it did.
> ...


Fair enough, but can you share how you calculated the daily interest? The monthly compounding rate is calculated as
1.031 ^ (1/12) ... Do you then divide this number by 31?



> To sum up the last few messages, we have no evidence that PCF is cheating its customers. We can quibble about different calculation methods, but that's just splitting hairs. They all come to within a few dollars of each other.


GoldStone, you're right: the calculations for mrPPincer look right, no matter which method is used -- as seen in the spreadsheet I posted. And yours clearly match up as well.

I seem to be the only one who has seen a significant mis match. Perhaps I missed some factor.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Too many calculations over here  . I just calculated that transfering money until deadline May 15 will give me more..... by how much?! I'll see....


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> Not if you are already a BMO IL client with a linked chequing account (which comes with the BMO IL account if one wants it). I opened a SB account in 5 minutes online yesterday.



online it is! done & done

except it took this poor dumb crumb 15 minutes, i don't really use this bank account so i had to exhume the numbers & the password from the code mortuary where i store such things each:


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Fair enough, but can you share how you calculated the daily interest? The monthly compounding rate is calculated as
> 1.031 ^ (1/12) ... Do you then divide this number by 31?


I did not calculate the daily interest per se, I did calculate roughly the annualized rate, 

All my work is pretty much in post 103 above, I just figured it out as I went, with a pocket calculator and a pen & paper.

But as a mental exercise (I need all I can get)..

The annualized rate was not 1.031 divided by 365 multiplied by 91 multiplied by average balance.
The number that calculation gave me was a control number which I used to find the annualized number (which was 1.0306542)

For a simpler formula to find your actual annualized rate you could reverse my math above (my reverse math lol)



> Average daily balance = $56,836.70
> Daily interest, 3.1%/365*91 days * $56,836.70 = 439.28
> Actual interest paid = $434.38


^this, the middle sentence, but we'll use algebra to take out the rate, and use the formula to find the actual rate instead of an annual 3.1

Translates to R (rate) divided by 365 multiplied by D (number of days with a balance) multiplied by AV (average balance over that number of days [but for a more accurate number do not include any regular interest paid as i did) equals TI (total interest paid, regular plus promo).

R / 365 x D x AV =TI
R /365 = TI / (D x AV)
R = (TI x 365) / (D x AV)

So if I have that right,
Actual annualized rate you are getting paid equals (365 xTotal Interest paid in dollars) divided by (number of days with a balance multiplied by average balance over those days)

Lets see if this works plugging in my numbers 
R = (TI x 365) / (D x AV)
R = ($434.38 x 365) / (91 x 56,836.70*) 
R = 0.030654373.. yep 

*note.. the 56,836.70 is a bit high because it includes a tiny amount of regular interest from my chequing acct. but I don't want to recalculate excluding that right now.

But say as a guess it is closer to $56,815 without basic interest,
plugging in that number..
R = ($434.38 x 365) / (91 x 56,815.00)
R = 0.030666081..

So the actual annualized rate I received is probably closer to 3.0666%

Proof that 3.030666% annualized for 12 monthly compounded payments is better than 3.1% at year's end is simple.
Taking 0.030666 and dividing it by 12 (for monthly compounded interest paid at end of each month)
you get 0.0025555 which is the monthly interest payment.

Plug 1.0025555 into the memory of a hand calculator, then enter one and multiply that by memory-recall 12 times, and you get 1.0311, 3.11%

__________


Edit: was thinking about this at work yesterday, the total interest was accrued over 91 days (including some compounding of the less the 0.5% basic interest), so the most accurate calculation for figuring annualization would be to figure for a quarterly payment.

So using that approximation above, $56,815 average balance, which would result in an actual rate of 3.0666%, dividing that by 4 gives 0.0076665.
1 compounded by 1.0076665 four times results in an annualized rate of 1.03102%, so it seems that PCF holding the promo interest unil the end of the promo is not costing us anything.

I will re-calculate to find the actual average balance without the basic interest on the weekend, I bet it's pretty close to my guess though.

(I understand it's counting pennies but it is interesting to me, people think they're losing something when PCF holds the special interest until the end of the promo, but it seems when they say annualized the mean exactly that.. we really aren't losing anything).


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> the broker hidden FX issue is billions of dollars charged by all brokers against nearly all clients without telling them properly. It's been going on for more than 20 years.
> 
> the issue is much bigger than a few fairly new virtual banks recently being coy about their promotions.
> 
> ...


Good Madam, I am sorry I was egging you on :biggrin:. I know it's a big issue for the industry that affects many more people compared to this poor-clarity-of-interest-rate-promotions-at-small-time-banks topic. On an individual investor basis though it's still a miniscule amount. 0.06% (for example) is 2% skimmed off a 3% dividend. That's a massive $30/year on a $50,000 holding. Comparatively, one's hopping around between banks could see their $50,000 cash deposit receiving an extra $250 (0.5%) or more in interest.

If and when I have large enough holdings in these special companies that it's costing more than a few bucks/year in hidden conversions, I may take interest in calling my broker to see what I can do about this. In the mean time I must let you ballers who are losing big bucks to this broker scheme keep the fight alive. It is good to hear that brokers are responding and company policy change may be effected for your efforts. I DO thank you.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

mrPPincer said:


> I will re-calculate to find the actual average balance without the basic interest on the weekend, I bet it's pretty close to my guess though.


Going by closing balances over the 91 days (minus any interest);

$570 (for one day, initial deposit), plus
$50,427.35*7 (7 days) plus
58,727.53*25
58,237.49*1
57,737.49*57
----------------
=5,171,024.12

5,171,024.12 / 91 days

= $56,824.44 average dollars in the account per day for 91 days, including the regular interest payments.

So using R = (TI x 365) / (D x AV)

where actual annualized rate equals (365 x Total Interest paid in dollars) divided by (number of days with a balance multiplied by average balance over those days);

R= (365 x 434.38) / (91 x $56,824.44)
R= 0.030660986

Figuring annualization for four compounding periods (91 days)
0.030660986 / 4 = 0.007665246
1 compounded by 1.007665246 four times = 1.031015328

3.1015% annualized, even counting the fact that they don't pay the bonus interest until after the promo period is ended, so it actually *was* better than their advertized 3.1%


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Did anyone else not receive their bonus interest from the last promo?



> 1. The President's Choice Financial® promotional interest offer (the "Offer") is available to all Eligible Accounts between April 1, 2015 and June 30, 2015 (the "Offer Period").
> 
> 3. The special annual interest rate of 2.6% is a combination of the regular annual interest rate set by President's Choice Financial payable on an Eligible Account balance, plus promotional interest ("Promotional Interest") that is calculated during the Offer Period.



I'm wondering if I did something wrong...

I deposited $9000 on April 6th and transferred it back to Tangerine on July 3rd. Should I not have received the bonus?

What does the bonus interest look like on my statement?



> Jul 06, 2015 EFT DEBIT Tangerine $9,000.00 $789.72
> 
> Jun 30, 2015 INTEREST $8.44 $9,789.72
> 
> ...



Note: I already had $765.70 in my account at the start of the promo.

Edit: I can already see that the math doesn't add up, and there should be a separate line item for "BONUS INTEREST".


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It was paid July 9th and called Promotional Interest.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

I got 1 amount as promotional interst ... didn't calculate if amount was right


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Guess I have to contact them.

Let this be a heads up to everyone... I'm sure I'm not the only one affected.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

nathan79 said:


> Guess I have to contact them.
> 
> Let this be a heads up to everyone... I'm sure I'm not the only one affected.


Did you actually enroll in the last promo? 

Making a deposit is not enough. You have to call PCF to enroll. They confirm the enrollment by email.

Sometimes you can enroll online, if you see the promo invitation when you log in. More often than not, you don't get an invite. You have to call in that case.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

GoldStone said:


> Did you actually enroll in the last promo?
> 
> Making a deposit is not enough. You have to call PCF to enroll. They confirm the enrollment by email.
> 
> Sometimes you can enroll online, if you see the promo invitation when you log in. More often than not, you don't get an invite. You have to call in that case.


I didn't enrol (to my knowledge), but I read the promo on their site and it didn't mention enrolling, only having an eligible account. I have an "Interest Plus Savings Account", so I definitely met the criteria laid out in the terms. I can't remember if I clicked through something on their site or not.

I've never had to enrol on Tangerine, either.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

GoldStone said:


> Did you actually enroll in the last promo?
> 
> Making a deposit is not enough. You have to call PCF to enroll. They confirm the enrollment by email.
> 
> Sometimes you can enroll online, if you see the promo invitation when you log in. More often than not, you don't get an invite. You have to call in that case.


I agree... eligibility can be tricky. I recall having to phone in for 'enrollment' and having it confirmed by email. PCF promos are seldom automatic, at least in recent times. Crazy the hoops some of these institutions make depositers jump through.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

nathan79 said:


> I didn't enrol (to my knowledge), but I read the promo on their site and it didn't mention enrolling, only having an eligible account. I have an "Interest Plus Savings Account", so I definitely met the criteria laid out in the terms. I can't remember if I clicked through something on their site or not.


See the first post here:

https://www.highinterestsavings.ca/...-interest-until-june-30-2015-on-new-deposits/

It quotes the terms & conditions:



> 2. To participate in the Offer, an Eligible Account holder must enroll or accept the Offer between April 1, 2015 and May 15, 2015 (the "Enrolment Period") by accepting the online banking invitation, calling 1-866-747-8129 or visiting an in-store President's Choice Financial pavilion or hub to speak with a customer service representative.


 


nathan79 said:


> I've never had to enrol on Tangerine, either.


Do you see 3% in your account info? If not, you are not enrolled.

ING/Tangerine offers used to be automatic, extended to all clients. Now they are playing the same hide & seek game as PCF.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

GoldStone said:


> See the first post here:
> 
> https://www.highinterestsavings.ca/...-interest-until-june-30-2015-on-new-deposits/
> 
> ...


I guess I missed that somehow. Maybe they're counting on people missing it.

With Tangerine, I clicked the banner when I was logged into my account. It took me to the Summer Saving Sale page, then I clicked the button that says "Move My Money". Does that mean I'm enrolled?


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

As per Goldstones comment, got the PCF promo only after asking on day of deposit then moved the funds to Tangerine beginning of July. Interesting I got the new promo email invite while my wife did not and had to call to request it.


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

nathan79 said:


> I guess I missed that somehow. Maybe they're counting on people missing it.
> 
> With Tangerine, I clicked the banner when I was logged into my account. It took me to the Summer Saving Sale page, then I clicked the button that says "Move My Money". Does that mean I'm enrolled?


With Tangerine to find out what special offers you are getting, login to your account, click on the savings account to see your transaction summary. In the upper right there is an "Account Info" button. Click that. It will tell you your current interest rate and any special offers you are getting (including a link to the terms and conditions under "Learn More").


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

nathan79 said:


> I didn't enrol (to my knowledge), but I read the promo on their site and it didn't mention enrolling, only having an eligible account. I have an "Interest Plus Savings Account", so I definitely met the criteria laid out in the terms. I can't remember if I clicked through something on their site or not.
> 
> I've never had to enrol on Tangerine, either.



Do you have more than one PCF account? The bonus interest from all accounts is only deposited in one account so if you have more than one non-registered/non-TFSA account (like maybe a joint account) make sure to check that account for the interest as well. Also, if you have more than one account and you withdrew more from one account than you put into the other account you wouldn't get any bonus interest. The bonus interest is calculated based on your account balances across all of your accounts.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

0xCC said:


> With Tangerine to find out what special offers you are getting, login to your account, click on the savings account to see your transaction summary. In the upper right there is an "Account Info" button. Click that. It will tell you your current interest rate and any special offers you are getting (including a link to the terms and conditions under "Learn More").


Here's what it says under my account on Tangerine:



> Your current interest rate: 1.05%
> 
> Special offer: Earn 3% interest until Nov 30, 2015 on new deposits to your Tangerine Savings Account from July 2 to September 30. Learn more


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

0xCC said:


> Do you have more than one PCF account? The bonus interest from all accounts is only deposited in one account so if you have more than one non-registered/non-TFSA account (like maybe a joint account) make sure to check that account for the interest as well. Also, if you have more than one account and you withdrew more from one account than you put into the other account you wouldn't get any bonus interest. The bonus interest is calculated based on your account balances across all of your accounts.


Nope, only one account. I guess I screwed up.. my fault for not reading the fine print closely.


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