# Time of Use Electicity Blues



## Spidey

When Ontario has instituted a "time of use" policy with electricity, I was not particularly happy but I thought I could adapt. However, while I'm finding it might be okay of a childless couple, it is a major challenge for a family that has 5-6 loads of laundry per week. 

The less expensive time is between 7 p.m. and 7 a.m. Now unless one follows an extremely flexible schedule that leaves between 6 and 7 in the morning or 7 - 11 in the evening to use electricity. If someone puts a load of laundry in the washer at 6 a.m. that means it is ready for the dryer at the peak time of 7. (Sometimes I do use a line but it has been raining lately.) And then, of course, who is that ambitious at 6 in the morning? So what about in the evening?, you ask. At least 2 of my family members take their shower in the evening and for some strange reason don't seem to appreciate being intermittently scalded and frozen. (And of course this is an issue in the morning, as well.) We sometimes put a load in before going to bed but the noise is annoying. And perhaps I'm a little paranoid, but I don't particularly like leaving an appliance, especially the dryer, running while the family is sleeping. And if you can take a little more whining, after 7 in the evening tends to be relaxing time with the spouse to catch a hockey game, American Idol or the latest hijinks on the Big Bang Theory. It's not the most fun time to do chores. The dishwasher does have a timer, but it seems rare that the timing of it being full coincides with the end of the day; which leaves us with a choice of either doing the leftover dishes by hand or saving the dirty dishes for a later load. And as a recent stay at home spouse (a role-reversal that we are also adapting to), what am I supposed to do during the day? Relax with a book and then do the chores when the family comes home? 

Rant finished. How are you adapting (or not adapting) to time of use?


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## Spudd

Can your family members rearrange their usual habits to shower in the morning instead? That's the only solution I can think of for your laundry problem. The only other thing is there's a yellow zone where it's halfway as expensive - you could target for doing laundry in that zone instead of the red zone.

I'm half of a childless couple so for us it's been quite fine. We put the timer on the DW when it's full enough and run it during the night. For laundry we just save it for weekends. I don't let the TOU dictate any of my other usage.


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## MoneyGal

2 kids and two parents in my family. We try to target yellow-zone use but I don't really rearrange my schedule much. I do admit that I am often doing laundry in the wee hours on either side of midnight. We have full clothes-drying racks in the basement, so laundry is hung, not tumbled, rain or shine. 

I also did a full analysis of the TOU costs once they were implemented in my house and although I can't recall the specific cost per day based on my useage, I concluded it was NOT something I was going to stress about - it wasn't going to be worth caring about - because even if I shifted ALL consumption to the lowest-cost hours, it was still going to be only pennies per day that I'd gain in foregone costs.


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## andrewf

For like 50 bucks you can get a pressure balanced shower valve, which will eliminate any problems you have with temperature changes while in the shower/bath.


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## Jon202

I hope you're going on-line with Hydro Ottawa (myhydrolink) using their hourly info to see what your hour by hour usage and realizing what appliances are the heavy users and which aren't. 

With 2 young children, washing and (especially) drying clothes is the big one. Waiting until after 7 isn't a big deal since with supper, clean up, baths etc... there's no time anyway.

The next big user is the range/stove and frankly there's no way to shift that usage so that one we bite. A lasagna takes an hour to cook, so be it.


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## hboy43

Hi:

I don't imagine a washing machine load uses enough energy to care a hoot about. The dryer is the thing ...

We hang 365 days a year. Our close line hangs in the upstairs hallway which lofts over the wood insert fireplace. Likely dries faster indoors in the winter than outdoors in the summer. Desperately need the humidity too, leaky log house.

Another idea with shower temperature shocks is to set the hot water temperature at just about shower temperature so no cold is needed to be mixed in. The health freaks say this can breed bacteria, but I've been doing it for decades. Also probably doesn't work in houses with mechanical rather than organic dish washers.

hboy43


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## Karen

> For like 50 bucks you can get a pressure balanced shower valve, which will eliminate any problems you have with temperature changes while in the shower/bath.


My house is very bad for that, and I enquired about the valve you mentioned, Andrew. The plumber told me that, in order to install the valve, he would have to cut a hole in the wall of my walk-in closet, which is immediately behind the shower in my en-suite bathroom. The main bathroom shower is even more of a problem since it backs on to the family room brick fireplace. It's not a major problem since I live alone, so I decided against having it done.

I have wondered if the plumber was right, though -I thought I had read about a much simpler way of doing it that just involved installing a valve on the tap, but the plumber said that was not possible. Do you know if he was right?


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## DanFo

I've got electric heat so I'm pooched once we get TOU pricing next year..I'll probably live through one winter of it to see how bad it is ..then see what my options will be... I'll probably be putting a gas stove in the basement for heat.


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## OhGreatGuru

Spidey said:


> ...
> 
> The less expensive time is between 7 p.m. and 7 a.m. ...
> 
> ...At least 2 of my family members take their shower in the evening .... We sometimes put a load in before going to bed but the noise is annoying. And perhaps I'm a little paranoid, but I don't particularly like leaving an appliance, especially the dryer, running while the family is sleeping.
> 
> And if you can take a little more whining, after 7 in the evening tends to be relaxing time with the spouse to catch a hockey game, American Idol or the latest hijinks on the Big Bang Theory. It's not the most fun time to do chores. ...
> 
> Rant finished. How are you adapting (or not adapting) to time of use?


1. _"The less expensive time is between 7 p.m. and 7 a.m."_ It is also any time of day on weekends.

2._"At least 2 of my family members take their shower in the evening and for some strange reason don't seem to appreciate being intermittently scalded and frozen."_ I hope they are not in the shower all evening. There are technological solutions as noted above, but otherwise people will need to adjust their habits (It's a shock in North America where we have had flat rates forever, but the rest of the Western World has been on variable rate for a long time, because energy has always been more expensive outside of Canada/USA.) 

3. The main energy consumption for a washing machine is for heating the water. If you have a gas water heater I wouldn't worry much about what time you do your wash. If you have an electric water heater, consider cold water wash to save energy.

4._ "We sometimes put a load in before going to bed but the noise is annoying."_ Try to figure out why it is so noisy.

5. _"And perhaps I'm a little paranoid, but I don't particularly like leaving an appliance, especially the dryer, running while the family is sleeping."_ Yes, you are paranoid. Do you turn off your furnace, hot water heater, and refrigerator at night?

6. _"And if you can take a little more whining, after 7 in the evening tends to be relaxing time with the spouse to catch a hockey game, American Idol or the latest hijinks on the Big Bang Theory. It's not the most fun time to do chores."_ And were you previously doing laundry while making and eating dinner from 5 to 7? What's so difficult above moving a load of laundry from the washer to the dryer during commercials or between hockey periods? And you can sort and fold laundry in front of the TV.


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## Addy

I don't think it's a big deal for us to make the changes required to save money. We already set our dishwasher to come on in the wee hours (it has a 2, 4 or 6 hr delay) and I rarely do a load of laundry during the weekday daytime hours unless it's summer time and I want to hang the laundry outside in the sun. All my shirt and pants get hung to dry regardless of weather on an inside rack. My husband does his own laundry, generally in the evenings or weekends and he dries everything in the dryer. My daughters clothes, my underwear and any towels or other linens generally get dried in the dryer, but I will be more conscientious of when I run the dryer, and will try and convince my husband to work his laundry schedule around the cheaper times.

So there will be some changes needed, but not a whole lot of change.


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## Addy

I just typed up a table and will keep it on my fridge and in my laundry room. Feel free to correct me as I am rather tired, not a good time to decipher a pie chart!

**Note the peak / mid peak hours change as of November 1st every year!

Hydro Time-of-Use Hours

Summer (May 1 – Oct 31)
7 am – 11 am Mid-Peak (8.9¢/hr)
11 am – 5 pm Peak (10.7¢/hr)
5 pm - 7 pm Mid-Peak (8.9¢/hr)
7 pm – 7 am Off-Peak (5.9¢/hr)

Winter (Nov 1 – Apr 30)
7 am – 11 am Peak (10.7¢/hr)
11 am – 5 pm Mid-Peak (8.9¢/hr)
5 pm - 7 pm Peak (10.7¢/hr)
7 pm – 7 am Off-Peak (5.9¢/hr)


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## Dana

I sympathize with the OP on this topic. Intellectually I know (as MoneyGal pointed out) that in the grand scheme of things green vs. yellow vs. red time slots aren't going to have a monumental effect on my electricity bill, I still get anxiety when I have to use the dryer/dishwasher/oven during peak periods. It's in my nature to not pay more than absolutely necessary whenever possible. 

We have been on TOU for about 18 months now and it has changed our habits a lot. It is almost unheard of for our dishwasher to go on before bedtime and instead of spreading our 7ish loads of laundry throughout the week, I do almost all laundry on weekends and try to do only one load of darks through the week. I have to block sizable time slots on weekends for folding, putting away and ironing. 

We purchased a new washer and dryer in January and they are HUGE so one load of darks is big and goes a long way, but I try to time that load so the dryer can start right at 7pm to take advantage of the TOU while still having laundry done before we go to bed. 

I also find I am more conscious of trying to use the smaller oven instead of the full size whenever possible (we have a double oven) and saving large meals that require the big oven for weekends/holidays when TOU is cheapest. 

I am not a fan of TOU, I don't know what a good alternative would be, but I wish there was an alternative.


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## HaroldCrump

The TOU billing is simply an ingenious money printing machine for the provincial govt.
It is a way to forcibly appropriate yet more hard earned money from middle class working families under the shameless excuse of "green" energy and environment friendliness.

We have discussed this extensively in the Energy Useage thread.

In brief, this has impacted us (and many families like ours) deeply.
My hydro bills have increased substantially (between 30% - 35%), esp. during the summer months.

In our family, we have been pretty frugal about energy useage.
We do all the usual song and dance about turning off lights, unplugging ghost power, deferring heavy hydro use until late night (such as laundary, dishwasher, etc.)

Yet, under the TOU we are paying substantially more, esp. when the summer heat hits and the A/C runs most of the afternoons.

The other factor is that soon after the introduction of the TOU, both the types of rates (TOU and flat) were adjusted in such a way that the lowest tier TOU rate was set _higher_ than the old flat rate.
So no matter what you do, which way you turn, whether you cook dinner at 7:00 pm or midnight, whether you do laundary at 2:00 am, it is guaranteed that you WILL pay more.

Here is a bill from this month:










As you can see, our consumption is in the lowest tier in our city.
Yet, my bills are about 35% higher than 2009 (prior to TOU).
During the summer, it's worse.

It is simply a punitive tax on middle class families where fixed monthly expenses form a significant % of monthly budget.
As a result of TOU and rate increases, suddenly in the summer of '09, I had a huge, gaping hole in my monthly budget that was unexpected, unplanned for, and impossible to fill.

And then everyone wonders why consumers are not spending money and stimulating the economy


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## kaleb0

Just a comment on the laundry part of things, two things I've been doing for a while just out of the want to develop frugal habits

1) (someone else mentioned this) we wash most all of our clothes with cold-water optimized detergents.

2) We almost never use a dryer, and dry our clothes either on a clothes line or (especially in the winter) in the winter we hang them on a couple of indoor clothes drying rack which
(Google search for *BAMBOO 2 Tier Drying Rack 3507201000 by Richards Homewares *)

I've done it like this for about 2 years and honestly not only am I happy with the money saved, I'm happy with the quality that it leaves my clothes in. 

The drying things by wire/clothes rack is something I picked up when I lived in Japan as almost no one there ever uses a clothes-dryer machine.


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## hystat

I have crunched the numbers for generating my own power at high-load-peak times (what industry calls "peak shaving"), or any time I want. 
If someone gave me a *free *diesel generator (high efficiency, modern unit) , and maintained it free of charge, and all I had to pay for was the fuel....

I still couldn't generate electricity anywhere near as cheap as OPG delivers it....

not even close, actually...
35 cents per kwh in fact, just for fuel

I haven't crunched all the numbers on the costs of operating a hydro dam or nuclear plant, but I'm not ready to cry mismanagement and political robbery yet...


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## Berubeland

I work from home a lot so it hurts. Most people leave home and consume less energy during this time. Really you have to moderate your behavior from 5-7 pm. 
It pretty much sucks. 

I always complain about the hydro bill, but I actually am using less as the little bar graph on my bill shows me, fact is though it doesn't matter because the rates have gone up. 

Sucks to be me!


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## CanadianCapitalist

TOU has been neutral for us. We always do laundry over the weekend or in the evenings anyway, so we even pay slightly less under TOU.


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## carverman

HaroldCrump said:


> The TOU billing is simply an ingenious money printing machine for the provincial govt.
> 
> As you can see, our consumption is in the lowest tier in our city.
> Yet, my bills are about 35% higher than 2009 (prior to TOU).
> During the summer, it's worse.


Don't forget that the HST added another 8% to the hydro bill after they
implemented it nearly a year and a half ago..although Premier Dad was
telling us they were give 10% discount on the consumption portion. 




> And then everyone wonders why consumers are not spending money and stimulating the economy


Because they are paying extra for gasoline, insurances, legal bills, electricity,
home heating these days, not to mention everything going up 4-5% a year
due to the ripple factor of taxes on fuel. 
Heck, it takes a quarter to get a gumball out of the machines these days.


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## carverman

hystat said:


> If someone gave me a *free *diesel generator (high efficiency, modern unit) , and maintained it free of charge, and all I had to pay for was the fuel....
> 
> I still couldn't generate electricity anywhere near as cheap as OPG delivers it....
> 
> not even close, actually...
> 35 cents per kwh in fact, just for fuel
> 
> I haven't crunched all the numbers on the costs of operating a hydro dam or nuclear plant, but I'm not ready to cry mismanagement and political robbery yet...


Rona was (or maybe still is) selling up to 8kw natural gas generators.
http://www.rona.ca/shop/~generator-...r-guardian-377771_generators_power-tools_shop

I looked at it briefly and asked the sales dude what it would cost to
install it at a home. He mentioned figure on $3k for the unit and up to
$3k for the installation, new wires/conduit, conversion for the electrical panel, extra gas line from gas meter and concrete slab to put it on. 
http://www.generatorguide.net/natural-gas-generators.html

So, in order to get off the grid and generate my own, it would cost me
$6K + hst up front ($780 to the gov't) to be able to enjoy the first
kwh from my own eqt rather than from the McGinty Gov't.

Not including occasional maintenance on the generating unit, (oil changes)
and possible replacement of the OHV engine that drives the generator (life expectancy of only 3000 operating hours) that would put the cost of generating maximum 700kwh over 60 days, ( approx 3000kwh per year average
consumption ) x 10 years to $0.03c per kwh + natural gas fuel costs. 
However, since there is 8760 hrs in a year, the engine may have to be replaced at
3 times a year?, so in the end, the cost of replacing the engine (or overhauling
it), pretty much eats up any savings you would realize from generating your
own. 

I don't know the consumption rate of the nat gas engine for a 8kwh generator
off hand on a hourly basis, but I suppose it would consume more energy during peak times and less during off peak such as midnight to 7am..but it would still have to run all the time, as the any devices used after midnight such as the fridge or freezer would still need electricity to run.

So with nat gas clean energy fuel consumption, I figure it would push the
cost of generating that kwh (over a ten year period) at 4 cents+.
Maybe after it was paid off, you might actually enjoy some savings on
your electricity bill compared to peak TOU rates..but only if the generator part lasts 20 years or more. 

You just can't win in this game.


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## HaroldCrump

CanadianCapitalist said:


> TOU has been neutral for us. We always do laundry over the weekend or in the evenings anyway, so we even pay slightly less under TOU.


How is that possible, unless the rates vary across cities/towns within the province?
I thought the rates were the same throughout.
The _lowest_ tier TOU rate is HIGHER than what the flat rate used to be when TOU pricing was introduced.
Assuming your consumption (KwH) is the same (i.e. you have simply moved your usage to "cheaper" time slots), you are paying more.

Leaving aside the effects of the temporary 10% sop (mostly offset by the extra 8% HST).


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## CanadianCapitalist

HaroldCrump said:


> The _lowest_ tier TOU rate is HIGHER than what the flat rate used to be when TOU pricing was introduced.


I would assume rates throughout Ontario are the same as well. With Ottawa Hydro RPP is 6.8 cents below threshold and 7.9 cents above threshold. Under TOU billing Off peak is 5.9 cents. 60% of our hydro usage is off-peak. A further 20% is mid-peak.


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## HaroldCrump

CanadianCapitalist said:


> With Ottawa Hydro RPP is 6.8 cents below threshold. Under TOU billing Off peak is 5.9 cents.


Right, and if I recall correctly, the RPP used to be 5.2 or 5.5 cents prior to the introduction of TOU.
The lowest tier rate when TOU was first introduced by 4.8 cents, however, within a few months (just in time for summer), it was raised to the 5.9 cents where it sits right now.

So yes, compared to an RPP customer today, you can pay less by shifting your usage timings.
Compared to the pre TOU rates, you are paying more.

There are three factors at play here - TOU, general rate hike & HST.
All three have combined to deliver a Rocky punch to the guts of middle class families trying to manage their budgets/expenses.


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## CanadianCapitalist

IMO, the issue then is not TOU. It is the general increase in utility rates and HST. If you look at the charts on this page, it is the off-peak TOU rates that are going up very sharply (as are RPP rates).


http://www.ontarioenergyboard.ca/OEB/Consumers/Electricity/Electricity+Prices


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## HaroldCrump

CanadianCapitalist said:


> IMO, the issue then is not TOU. It is the general increase in utility rates and HST. If you look at the charts on this page, it is the off-peak TOU rates that are going up very sharply (as are RPP rates).


TOU is not the *only* issue, but certainly *an* issue.
General rise in rates and HST are of course important factors as well.
While everybody across the board is impacted by the general rate hikes and HST, a subset of the consumers are impacted negatively by TOU.

Unless you can transfer almost ALL of your consumption to the lowest TOU tier, you will be paying more no matter what you do.
Even the slightest amount of usage during the mid and peak times will offset the benefits you get out of the lowest tier because of the excessively high rates in those two tiers.
The spread between the lowest TOU tier and the flat rate is 0.9c. however, the spread against the other two tiers are 2.1c. and 3.7c. respectively.

And if you baseline your bill against the spring/summer of '09 (barely 2 years ago), the difference is enormous.

Assuming most of us are good citizens and optimize our usage as best as we can, there is nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.
We are getting slaughtered at the altar of a rapacious and corrupt govt.


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## carverman

HaroldCrump said:


> Assuming most of us are good citizens and optimize our usage as best as we can, there is nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.
> *We are getting slaughtered at the altar of a rapacious and corrupt govt*.


So the general public is considered sacrificial lambs when it comes to 
electricity? Relax Harold, because it's going get even more expensive
in the next 5 years. The OEB sets the rates based on input from various
interested marketing parties and OPG. This is the entity we should be
complaining about rising electricity rates to.


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## HaroldCrump

carverman said:


> The OEB sets the rates based on input from various interested marketing parties and OPG. This is the entity we should be
> complaining about rising electricity rates to.


You mean the same OPG that constitutes more than 25% of the latest Ontario Sunshine List and where over 60% of the employees are part of the Sunshine list? 

*Ontario Power Generation says 7,786 of its 12,500 workers made the list last year.*
- _Source : The Canadian Press 3/31/2011_

Gee, I wonder where they are getting this money from?


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## andrewf

Hydro rates were being subsidized out of general government revenues before. That's wrong. The user should pay.

Now, perhaps OPG is inefficient. I am all in favour of contracting out generation to private firms, and indeed OPG has done this for some of its capacity (Bruce, for instance). But railing about corrupt government is just paranoid rambling. We're moving from you paying for my electricity use (through general revenue) to me paying for my electricity. You're welcome. Railing about the evils of government and TOU pricing takes the spotlight off the real problem: potential inefficiency in the operation of OPG and Hydro One.


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## HaroldCrump

andrewf said:


> Hydro rates were being subsidized out of general government revenues before. That's wrong. The user should pay.


Why doesn't the "user should pay" rule not apply to all other public services as well?
For instance, public transit?
Health care?


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## Eclectic12

andrewf said:


> Hydro rates were being subsidized out of general government revenues before. That's wrong. The user should pay.
> 
> Now, perhaps OPG is inefficient. I am all in favour of contracting out generation to private firms, and indeed OPG has done this for some of its capacity (Bruce, for instance). But railing about corrupt government is just paranoid rambling.
> 
> [ ... ]
> 
> Railing about the evils of government and TOU pricing takes the spotlight off the real problem: potential inefficiency in the operation of OPG and Hydro One.


Dealing with inefficiencies and past debt are the million dollar question. 

Several of the US states thought that opening up to a broader range of competition would be the universal fix-all. Instead they ended up suing some of the producers for manipulating the "free market" electricity supply.


Cheers


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## carverman

andrewf said:


> Now, perhaps OPG is inefficient. I am all in favour of contracting out generation to private firms, and indeed OPG has done this for some of its capacity (Bruce, for instance). But railing about corrupt government is just paranoid rambling. We're moving from you paying for my electricity use (through general revenue) to me paying for my electricity. You're welcome. Railing about the evils of government and TOU pricing takes the spotlight off the real problem: potential inefficiency in the operation of OPG and Hydro One.


Sorry, but I have to take sides with Harold on this one, Andrew.

No matter how inefficient (or conversely efficient) we can make OPG, or
even if the independent owned production such as Bruce Power, electricity is transportable energy that can be sold across the US border to the highest bidder.
The IESO sets the global spot prices.
http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/siteshared/electricity_bill.asp
This is the key factor that sets global spot prices on electricity. 

http://www.powerengineeringint.com/...tricity-prices-on-the-up-and-set-to-rise.html 

A while ago, BRUCE POWER was paid by the OPA *NOT to generate power under their contract prices*, in order to maintain electricity prices and not having a
huge surplus of electricity to deal with. 

Having a surplus generated capacity would have meant having to sell the excess generated electricity, or lower electricity prices...and of course the taxes/DRC that the Ontario gov't collects from each hydro bill.
It's that "giant sucking sound" reaching into our wallets! 

http://h1ripoff.blogspot.com/2010/09/bruce-power-got-millions-to-not-produce.html

*OPA paid Bruce generating 57.5 MILLION for 1.2 Terawatts of power that
was NEVER PRODUCED! *

Splitting up power production to independent producers will not make 
the kwh rate for Ontario consumers any cheaper..in fact, it will make
it more expensive, because the independent operators (windfarms or
whatever) can go to OEB and ask for a rate increase to protect their
huge investment.

Like I said..it's a no-win situation now..hydro rates will continue to rise,
no matter who is generating it.


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## DanFo

The power mix is changing ....the cheapest power is Hydro..then coal...then nukes..gas..wind then solar.....they're phasing out the cheapest sources and trying to replace it with more costly forms of generation....for each wind/solar farm they also need another source (gas plants lately) to replace the power when the wind/sun isn't available...Even with the new rates we are still better off than some of our neighbours price wise...for now at least.


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## realist

andrewf said:


> Hydro rates were being subsidized out of general government revenues before. That's wrong. The user should pay.


EXACTLY. We should pay the cost of electricity on the electric bill, not on our tax bills, and that price should reflect the REAL cost of the power. 

DanFO accurately points out that part of the cost increase is a shift from "cheaper" generation such as coal to nuclear and renewables, but fails to point out that coal is essentially "subsidized" by our taxes and health care costs, and nuclear is significantly subsidized by the tax payer. 

The subsidy for renewables would not be necessary/would be less necessary if the other power sources were not already subsidized.

Personally I would like to see legislation that requires all new buildings over a certain size to generate X% of their own power. CHP systems that generate both heat and electricity would make sense for most major buildings, as an example. This would also cost the tax payer nothing!


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## HaroldCrump

realist said:


> that price should reflect the REAL cost of the power.


How do you plan to calculate the "REAL" cost of power?


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## the-royal-mail

Public transit, bicycle lanes and healthcare are being subsidized out of general government revenues. That's wrong. The user should pay.


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## MoneyGal

Where is that popcorn-munching smilie when you need it.


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## carverman

DanFo said:


> The power mix is changing ....the cheapest power is Hydro..then coal...then nukes..gas..wind then solar.....they're phasing out the cheapest sources and trying to replace it with more costly forms of generation....for each wind/solar farm they also need another source (gas plants lately) to replace the power when the wind/sun isn't available...Even with the new rates we are still better off than some of our neighbours price wise...for now at least.


Legacy power plants like the dams are the cheapest form of electricity
producing forms. I read somewhere that the cost of producing a kwh
energy unit with existing hydro electric dams is somewhere around 1.2 cents/kwh.
The water behind the dams cost nothing in terms of energy required to
spin the turbines. 

Coal was the next cheapest, but because of the Ontario Gov'ts
decision for green power, these are being phased out and replaced
by Nat Gas which is a far more expensive way of producing electricity,
although granted, it is cleaner.

Nuclear is one of the most expensive ways of producing electricity because
of the high maintenance costs and fuel rod replacement and eventual
reactor shutdown for retrofits. 

Green Power (windfarms/solar) is the most lucrative for investors because
of the FIT prices paid to generators, although any new FITcontracts being
negotiated now, will much lower per kwh than when initially set up to
attract investment into the FIT program.

http://fit.powerauthority.on.ca/fit-price-schedule


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## HaroldCrump

carverman said:


> Green Power (windfarms/solar) is the most lucrative for investors because of the FIT prices paid to generators


Green power also enables the province to create subsidized jobs, thereby artificially boosting the employment numbers - a purely political strategy.

This is in fact a form of hidden unemployment caused by the government investing tax-payer dollars into capital inefficient industries, which would otherwise not have occured in an efficient capital allocated market.


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## carverman

HaroldCrump said:


> Green power also enables the province to create subsidized jobs, thereby artificially boosting the employment numbers - a purely political strategy.


Nothing wrong with creating a few new jobs. Heck the farmers can quit
their money losing family farms and rent out their land for 20 years or
so to the windfarm entrepreneurs and probably make more renting the
land than what they get for farm produce these days. 



> This is in fact a form of hidden unemployment caused by the government investing tax-payer dollars into capital inefficient industries, which would otherwise not have occured in an efficient capital allocated market.


Goverments don't care about efficiency or how tax payers money is spent.
They just do it and run up big deficits, which then they have to create
new taxes to feed the deficits. Just when we think we have had enough
taxes and rate hikes..on the count of 3, lets all bend over for 3 levels
of gov't to ....

BTW..I just received my latest TOU Ottawa Hydro bill..it went down from the
previous bill that was the beginning of TOU charges in my area.
The dollar value is the total bill including a delivery/regulatory charges/DRC and
of course McGuinty's infamous HST on electricity and home heating, which includes "Premier Dad's" 10% reduction for clean energy ($8.07)

NON-TOU hydro bills
===============
Apr-May 539 adjusted KWH ...$81.70 (all usage at 0.064 & 0.068 rate)
Jun-July 581 " KWH ..$87.27 (6.17kwh/day off [email protected] for all usage)
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First bill using actual TOU calculations:
============================
Aug-Sep 410 " " ........$68.87 (4.71kwh/day off peak @0.059kwh

Of course in the summer months, I can't control the central air running in the
afternoon on those scorcher days, and in the heating season the furnace fan
running, but other than that, I now think about off peak usage for some of
my more discretionary electrical use.


----------



## HaroldCrump

Let us not forget that the weekday off peak rate used to start from 9:00 pm.
It was only due to the large public outcry that Premier Dad extended that to 7:00 pm.
7:00 pm is *not* off-peak, neither in summer nor winter.
Also, the 10% discount expires in a year.

These are all handles and levers that they built into the system to manipulate our monthly bills vis-a-vis their tax revenues.
When they want more $$, the 10% discount will be gone.
Want more $$, the time slot will be extended to 9:00 pm again.

And perhaps most importantly - regardless of all these discounts and time slot shenanigans, there is only one known and confirmed fact : the base rates (TOU as well as RPP flat) are going up, up and up.


----------



## andrewf

HaroldCrump said:


> Why doesn't the "user should pay" rule not apply to all other public services as well?
> For instance, public transit?
> Health care?


Reducing congestion is a public good. The right to not die for lack of financial resources is part of the Canadian social contract. The right to subsidized electricity is not. Why should we subsidize electricity, and not food, which is far more essential for human life?


----------



## andrewf

carverman said:


> Splitting up power production to independent producers will not make
> the kwh rate for Ontario consumers any cheaper..in fact, it will make
> it more expensive, because the independent operators (windfarms or
> whatever) can go to OEB and ask for a rate increase to protect their
> huge investment.
> 
> Like I said..it's a no-win situation now..hydro rates will continue to rise,
> no matter who is generating it.


I'm not one to defend the feed in tariff for renewables. It's a pretty badly designed system for achieving its stated goals, regardless of whether those goals are worthwhile.


----------



## HaroldCrump

andrewf said:


> Reducing congestion is a public good. The right to not die for lack of financial resources is part of the Canadian social contract. The right to subsidized electricity is not.


I see, so socialism for you, and capitalism for me.
How very convenient.

Also, if you have been following my monthly hydro consumption and bill charts, it should be very clear who is subsidizing who.

Speaking of electricity and food, right now these commodities are being leveraged as _reverse_ subsidies by your government.
i.e. inflated tax revenues from these are being used to pay for other, even more inefficient, uses of capital.
By artificially preventing the efficient allocation of capital, then racking on additional fees, taxes, charges, etc. on top of already inflated prices makes for a very convenient money printing machine.

Have no fear, my friend, of your government subsidizing electricity and/or food - it is electricity and food (among other things) that is subsidizing other "social" objectives.


----------



## hystat

carverman said:


> So with nat gas clean energy fuel consumption, I figure it would push the
> cost of generating that kwh (over a ten year period) at 4 cents+.


just for the fuel, you would pay almost 10 times that amount 

running the generator 24/7, you'd probably be looking at $1/kwh or more on average

internal combustion engines are very inefficient prime movers for generating... 1/3 of the heat energy of the fuel goes out the exhaust, and another 1/3 goes out the radiator...
the remaining 1/3 turns the crankshaft

cogeneration would increase efficiency by capturing some of the exhaust heat energy and radiated energy for home heating, but initial unit cost would go way up as well as maintenance costs


----------



## carverman

hystat said:


> just for the fuel, you would pay almost 10 times that amount running the generator 24/7, you'd probably be looking at $1/kwh or more on average.
> internal combustion engines are very inefficient prime movers for generating... 1/3 of the heat energy of the fuel goes out the exhaust, and another 1/3 goes out the radiator... the remaining 1/3 turns the crankshaft.


Yes, I am familiar with the inefficiences of the internal combustion engine,
even with modernization they can't seem to approach 50% efficiency.

My nat gas contract (5yr) is for 29.9c a cubic meter, add to it all the
surcharges + hst; its closer to 40cents a cubic meter loaded cost.
I know from monthly gas charges in mid winter how expensive that is, and
my 15 yr old furnace is only mid efficiency at best.

The 4c per k/h cost was just an approximation of the cost of the nat gas
8kw generating unit prorated over 10+ years, assuming that it would finally
pay for itself in 10 years time. This is* without the fuel charges *or from what the specs mention, the expected 3000 hr life of the small inefficient engine that drives the 8kw generator. 

The sad reality of this product is, that unless it's a farmer that has nat gas on his property buying it as backup, or some other temporarily installation
(such as construction site), it definitely is not an economical way to generate.

Assuming here the generator consumes 1 cu ft of nat gas in an hour, running at
3 to 4 kwatts output, (about half it's rated output), it would cost me 44c/4kw or about 11cents per kwh for just the nat gas fuel!

Add to that a *possible engine replacement *every 4 months..well maybe a bit longer, say 6 month, at a cost of $600 + hst (x 2)..I would need to add
another $1356 for replacing the two engines that will wear out each year.
So we need to add another 0.45c to the initial cost of purchase/ the fuel to run it it, and scheduled downtime maintenance..it's closer to 56 cents a kwh!

I haven't even considered the downtime of the generating unit for scheduled
maintenance oil changes or swapping out engines every 6 months.

I would also have to buy a spare engine and have that on hand in case a swap is needed due to mechanical breakdown..or buy a second unit..or go back on the grid......there are just too many possible headaches,

not to mention that Hydro Ottawa would still send me a $25 bi-monthly bill for the meter even if I turn off the breaker that connects me to the power grid.



> cogeneration would increase efficiency by capturing some of the exhaust heat energy and radiated energy for home heating, but initial unit cost would go way up as well as maintenance costs


That may be a possiblity for the future but they would have to build a heat
exchanger into it, and the other problem is that it takes up a fair amount of space
in the basement to have it work as a exhaust heat exchanger with some
kind of direct exhaust bypass in the summer months.. and then there is the
constant noise.


----------



## Financial Cents

Waiting until after 7 PM to do laundry, run dishwasher, is not a big deal around our house. 

Our bills have gone down because of it. Less complaining when I'm saving more of my money


----------



## carverman

Financial Cents said:


> Waiting until after 7 PM to do laundry, run dishwasher, is not a big deal around our house.
> 
> Our bills have gone down because of it. Less complaining when I'm saving more of my money


It's too soon to tell yet with my electricity charges on TOU, but with the
billing of Aug/September, it appears to have gone down a bit. Of course,
the 10% provincial discount helps too.

I'm definitely more concious of running high consumption appliances (stove
wash machine/dryer/vacumn) during peak hours now, but I'm not going
to get paranoid about it and have to put off meal times to off peak just
to save a few cents with the oven or stove top elements. 

I just signed up with Ottawa Hydro to MYHYDROLINK account and it is
pretty cool.

I can log in and tell at a glance how much power I'm using on 
an hourly/daily/weekly or monthly basis. 

The bar graph indicators are set up as GREEN (off peak) YELLOW (mid-peak) and RED (on-peak).
It gives me a summary of the actual electricity cost used on an hourly
basis as well..if I want to see it that way. 

So far, I'm mostly in the green..except during meal cooking on my stove at
5pm (which is still in the peak period). I eat when I'm hungry and prefer
not to have to wait to cook until after 7pm on Mon-Fri. 

I went back about 5 days to see my daily TOU consumption

Weekends: (off peak)
Sat Oct15 8.71kwh (electricity usage cost= .56c)
Sun Oct 16 8.66kwh (cost= 49c)
------------------------------
Mon Oct17 9.82kwh (cost = 79c)
Tue Oct18 9.39kwh (cost= 73c
Wed Oct19 8.40kwh (cost= 66c)
Thu Oct20 8.79kwh (cost=69c)
Frid (Oct21 (no data yet) 

This site calculated estimate of $0.79 is *only the energy charges at the 3 different tiers.*
If I take my last bill $68.87/410kwh adjusted consumption, I get about 16.8c/kwh loaded cost.


Ok, so examining my REAL cost on Monday Oct 17:
The actual REAL cost for Monday Oct 17 is 9.82kwh x 16.8cents/kwh (loaded cost) = $1.65.


----------



## Spidey

I agree that this will have little impact on most duel income families because they will, for the most part, be working or commuting during the time when the most expensive rates are in effect.

The people who will likely be hurt the most by TOU are the people who can least afford it - single income families with young children and seniors.

For one thing, both of these categories are home during the day and unless they decide to spend their time in the dark with TV and appliances off, they will be using electricity during peak times. 

For a spouse at home with young children, it is just not practical to try to save laundry, etc. for a time when they are also dealing with getting the children settled down for the night and also the time when, after being in the company of children all day, they probably desire spending some quality time with their spouse.

And many seniors just do not have the energy to tackle chores late into the evening. 

At the very least, I think the lowest charge period should be increased by an hour on each end - 6:00 p.m. to 8:00 a.m. But then, that would probably allow too many people to conform.


----------



## MoneyGal

It's true, after working out of the house all day I usually prefer to do laundry over spending time with my spouse OR my children.


----------



## Spidey

MoneyGal said:


> It's true, after working out of the house all day I usually prefer to do laundry over spending time with my spouse OR my children.


Good point and it made me smile (perhaps because for some people it would be the case). However, the fact remains that, as a double-income working family, the time of use likely has little effect on you, since you probably have no choice but to use off-peak hours. So TOU is basically equivalent to a tax on single-income families or retirees.


----------



## carverman

Spidey said:


> And *many seniors just do not have the energy* to tackle chores late into the evening.
> 
> At the very least, I think the lowest charge period should be increased by an hour on each end - 6:00 p.m. to 8:00 a.m. But then, that would probably allow too many people to conform.


This is my problem..I just don't have the energy in the 'off peak' periods to
do all that..I just do it as required.
I'm not thinking about the cost of electricity by itself but the cost on my health, when I have to do household chores after 7pm. 

The off peak rate (Mon-Fri , holidays excepted) is great for that single swing shift worker who comes home at midnight and doesn't feel tired enough to do all the household chores.


----------



## realist

HaroldCrump said:


> How do you plan to calculate the "REAL" cost of power?


Actual Cost to Produce without taxpayer subsidies + Costs of dealing with emissions and waste products + cost of delivery = Price 

Would be a good start


----------



## realist

HaroldCrump said:


> I see, so socialism for you, and capitalism for me.
> How very convenient.
> 
> Also, if you have been following my monthly hydro consumption and bill charts, it should be very clear who is subsidizing who.



Actually it should be very clear that your power bill should be even higher if taxes weren't subsidizing it, which was the whole point.

Comparing electricity consumption to health care as a public good is a straw man, and it makes me sad if any of you actually believe that is true.

As for public transit,I am all for a user pay system... with the same for roads and highways of course, right? Bottom line there are areas in which having commonly funded programs and infrastructure is beneficial to society. 

In the case of electricity, reduced prices to the consumer lead to increased consumption and costs to the public as a whole.


----------



## andrewf

HaroldCrump said:


> I see, so socialism for you, and capitalism for me.
> How very convenient.
> 
> Also, if you have been following my monthly hydro consumption and bill charts, it should be very clear who is subsidizing who.


I already said you're welcome. By raising hydro rates, you are no longer subsidizing my consumption. And socialism for me? I don't use either transit or health care, or at least I'm in the bottle decile of consumption for both. I'm sorry. If I had to pick between universal medical insurance and subsidizing electricity for people who blast their A/C all summer, I'm going to pick people not dying. Good to know that you're on the side of cheap A/C.



> Speaking of electricity and food, right now these commodities are being leveraged as _reverse_ subsidies by your government.
> i.e. inflated tax revenues from these are being used to pay for other, even more inefficient, uses of capital.
> By artificially preventing the efficient allocation of capital, then racking on additional fees, taxes, charges, etc. on top of already inflated prices makes for a very convenient money printing machine.


This is a bunch of barely meaningful gobbledygook. I'm guessing you only complain about certain kinds of socialism, right? Socialist roads are just fine, right?



> Have no fear, my friend, of your government subsidizing electricity and/or food - it is electricity and food (among other things) that is subsidizing other "social" objectives.


Offered without substantiation. Do you have any idea how much money is provided in farm subsidies? It's well over $50 billion a year, world-wide. You're in full 'get off my lawn you darned kids' mode.


----------



## andrewf

Spidey said:


> I agree that this will have little impact on most duel income families because they will, for the most part, be working or commuting during the time when the most expensive rates are in effect.
> 
> The people who will likely be hurt the most by TOU are the people who can least afford it - single income families with young children and seniors.


If we're worried about the poor, let's give them some money and let them decide whether they should keep their hydro consumption where it is or whether they can conserve and spend that money elsewhere. I see no reason to give everyone cheap power to help out the few poor that need it. That's wasteful.

Isn't there already a utility tax credit for seniors, anyway?


----------



## andrewf

carverman said:


> This is my problem..I just don't have the energy in the 'off peak' periods to
> do all that..I just do it as required.
> I'm not thinking about the cost of electricity by itself but the cost on my health, when I have to do household chores after 7pm.
> 
> The off peak rate (Mon-Fri , holidays excepted) is great for that single swing shift worker who comes home at midnight and doesn't feel tired enough to do all the household chores.


Is it that big of a burden to do your big energy consuming chores on the weekend, carver?


----------



## HaroldCrump

realist said:


> Costs of dealing with emissions and waste products


How do you plan to calculate that?


----------



## HaroldCrump

andrewf said:


> I already said you're welcome. By raising hydro rates, you are no longer subsidizing my consumption.


The point is that even the most efficient users of electricity have seen their bills skyrocket.
I'm all for removing subsidies, I don't disagree with that.
But there are gazallions of other subsidies we can target as well.
This is selective socialism.

The issue with the current hydro rate situation is NOT about whether we should/shouldn't have subsidies.
Making it a subsidies issue is taking the discussion in a different direction.

Your subsidies (real or imaginary) could have been removed without adding on TOU, DRC, HST and all the other - what's the word...ah, yes - gobbledygook - on to our bills.

The real gobbledygook is how your government is leveraging essential goods and services as an ATM machine to line their pockets and sell favors to their pet interest groups.

How come they don't show the same capitalist spirit when it comes to trimming their budgets?


----------



## carverman

andrewf said:


> Isn't there already a utility tax credit for seniors, anyway?


Yes. It was introduced in the 2010 taxation year, but I couldn't use it because you have to be 65+ to use it. I filled out the application forms (ON BEN) with my return back in March, and should be eligible this year for an Ontario property and energy tax credit as well as the "over 65" age amount credit.


----------



## carverman

andrewf said:


> Is it that big of a burden to do your big energy consuming chores on the weekend, carver?


Not at all, especially in the fall/winter/spring months when I am at home pretty
much most of the time. As a single senior, I do my laundry chores early on the
weekend, so it's cheaper for me to run the washer/dryer now than it ever has
before TOU or the HST.

I run power tools on the weekend as well. So for me, about the only way
I get into the red zone tier is, if I run the oven for an half an hour to bake
a frozen pizza, or a roast before 7 pm on weekdays.

Most of the time I use my microwave which is a lot more efficient and faster at at heating water and cooking.

This year I switched to more energy efficient fridge as well, since I can't
control when it wants to run during the day. As far as running A/C in the 3 hot summer months, I use it sparingly in the day and run it more in the evening
to avoid the highest tier as much as possible. Sometimes in those very
high humidity summer days, it runs from noon to 11 or 12pm, but those
days are few.

I also have a gas fireplace upstairs in my living quarters, so I run it more for
heating than estetics. The fan on the fireplace consumes far less power 
(about 60watts) than the 1/2 horsepower furnace fan, at 370 watts.
(1hp = 746 watts) and 1kw = 1.34 horsepower
If my 1/2hp furnace fan runs for 3 hours (on/off) over the 24hr day,in the coldest winter months, it will consume over 1 kwh . 

I am now registered with Ottawa Hydro TOU, I will be able to monitor how much the furnace is using with my daily graph analysis.

Overall, I think I'm fairly energy conscious these days when it comes to electricity
and nat gas usage. Certainly the current TOU (Ottawa Hydro calculator) bar graphs shows me more in the green and yellow zone than red.


----------



## HaroldCrump

andrewf said:


> whether they can conserve and spend that money elsewhere





> people who blast their A/C all summer


Can't you understand that most people ARE conserving, most people are NOT "blasting" their A/Cs all summer?

Such people only exist inside your head.

You, and those like you that are crying "burn 'em", are talking about ordinary, responsible, sensible people for the most part.

Sure, there may be a few people that "blast their A/C all summer", but is your government willing to hang everybody out to dry just to punish those small handful?
Is that the plan?

The point of my posting the usage details was : no matter how much you optimize, you are screwed.

What do you suggest I do?

I am in the bottom 1% of consumption in my city, and this is while being a single income household with a stay at home parent, and kids.
My bills have increased nearly 40% since the lethal combination of high rates + TOU + HST etc. was introduced by your vindictive government.
What do you suggest I do?


----------



## the-royal-mail

Harold, there's no point in trying to reason with socialists.


----------



## hboy43

carverman said:


> That may be a possiblity for the future but they would have to build a heat
> exchanger into it, and the other problem is that it takes up a fair amount of space
> in the basement to have it work as a exhaust heat exchanger with some
> kind of direct exhaust bypass in the summer months.. and then there is the
> constant noise.


It is my understanding that house level CHP devices already exist in Europe.

Like water usage charges being phased in some years ago, the utility will never see itself with lower revenues, so if consumption drops in half, the price will double. One can only gain on a relative basis, if my cost goes down, it means someone else's must go up.

hboy43


----------



## Eclectic12

HaroldCrump said:


> Can't you understand that most people ARE conserving, most people are NOT "blasting" their A/Cs all summer?
> 
> Such people only exist inside your head.
> 
> [ ... ]
> 
> What do you suggest I do?
> 
> I am in the bottom 1% of consumption in my city, [ ... ]
> My bills have increased nearly 40% since the lethal combination of high rates + TOU + HST etc. was introduced by your vindictive government.
> 
> What do you suggest I do?


Hmmmm ... Weird how I was renting a room from a family that only exists in andrewf's head!

I've also had neighbors complain about how their friends keep their homes too hot in winter and two cold in summer for their comfort.

However - I'm not sure about who outnumbers whom, without better info.


Cheers


----------



## andrewf

the-royal-mail said:


> Harold, there's no point in trying to reason with socialists.


Do we have any socialists here?


----------



## andrewf

HaroldCrump said:


> Can't you understand that most people ARE conserving, most people are NOT "blasting" their A/Cs all summer?
> 
> Such people only exist inside your head.


This is flat wrong. I know of a counterexample, and I live in the same building as them.



> You, and those like you that are crying "burn 'em", are talking about ordinary, responsible, sensible people for the most part.


Burn 'em? I don't think asking people to pay for what they use is a big burden.



> Sure, there may be a few people that "blast their A/C all summer", but is your government willing to hang everybody out to dry just to punish those small handful?
> Is that the plan?


Wait, I thought you just categorically asserted that no such people exist? And hanging out to dry is a good way to save energy. Great idea!



> The point of my posting the usage details was : no matter how much you optimize, you are screwed.
> 
> What do you suggest I do?


Piss and moan on the internet in hopes that someone will take pity and pay your bill for you. How's that working out for you?



> I am in the bottom 1% of consumption in my city, and this is while being a single income household with a stay at home parent, and kids.
> My bills have increased nearly 40% since the lethal combination of high rates + TOU + HST etc. was introduced by your vindictive government.
> What do you suggest I do?


I know, you want free hydro. You have some bizarre fixation on it, despite how little you use. I frankly don't get it. I'm surprised you're not also ranting about how they downsized your ketchup bottle by 15 mL.


----------



## carverman

hboy43 said:


> Like water usage charges being phased in some years ago, the utility will never see itself with lower revenues, so if consumption drops in half, the price will double. One can only gain on a relative basis, if my cost goes down, it means someone else's must go up.
> 
> hboy43


Inflation is added in each year to the cost of commodities such as energy in
any kind of form. Water is a local municipality issue and the cost of pumping,
treating and supplying it through a town or city infracture involves costs as
well. 

To have that water available at your taps 24/7 requires a network of
water towers and pumps to pressurize it. Water mains also break due to frost heaves in wintertime and sometimes have to be replaced as the infrastructure
becomes too old and incapacitated for the current demand.

Sewage treatment has gone up a lot..because anything we drink eventually ends up in the sewers as well. That requires a huge infrastructure to treat before the water can be released back to the environment. 
These days municipalities are charged with heavy fines if untreated sewage finds it's way into the rivers. 
Most of us still remember what happened in Walkerton Ont. a few years ago. 

As far as electricity rates, it's hard to say if conservation and lower consumoption will drive down future kwh pricing. I tend to agree that it won't. Industry and retailers use a lot of electricity. New home construction adds more people onto the grid each year, so conservation by someone at one end means more power is available to provide to new homes, business construction,and other infrastructure
such as street and road lighting.

If the generating capacity is exceed at any given time, the power has to come from somewhere, otherwise we have blackouts. Nobody wants that after what happened in Ontario in 2004. Whether OPG has to build more generating capacity to provide future needs, or import it at very costly prices from other generators, the spot market price increases on electricity, from day to day, pretty much sets the pace for future electricity increases ....as North America becomes more electrical "power hungry" each year, inspite of conservation efforts.


----------



## JA2285

I know my dishwasher, washer and dryer all have timer options.. Just set them late. I run our dishwasher when i go to bed anyways..


----------



## Financial Cents

JA2285 said:


> I know my dishwasher, washer and dryer all have timer options.. Just set them late. I run our dishwasher when i go to bed anyways..


We do the same. Built-in TOU  What's the issue on this post again?


----------



## realist

andrewf said:


> If we're worried about the poor, let's give them some money and let them decide whether they should keep their hydro consumption where it is or whether they can conserve and spend that money elsewhere. I see no reason to give everyone cheap power to help out the few poor that need it. That's wasteful.


Exactly. If we are worried about seniors or low income people being able to afford their heat and electricity bills, keeping the price low for *everybody* is a very inefficient way of addressing that issue.

I have no problem with my taxes paying to keep Granny's heat and lights on. I am not a fan of helping the guy with a 4000 square foot house save a few bucks.


----------



## Spidey

I suspect that most of the people who see no problem with this are either without dependents or mostly commuting and working during the peak hours. We're talking about a family lifestyle issue here. It is extremely difficult to be non-productive when one is home all day and then save the chores for later in the evening. As for subsidies for poorer folks, there are none as of yet but such types of benefits usually only apply to very low incomes. I suspect even a one income earner making even 40 k with a spouse and kids at home wouldn't qualify. And my elderly mother's electricity costs have increased significantly and there's been no subsidies that I've heard of to help her out. 

So yes people can work around this, but it negatively affects family life and disproportionately affects the routine and electricity costs of stay-at-home parents.


----------



## MoneyGal

It isn't that I "see no problem" with this. 

I do see what I perceive as a small problem that isn't worth my worry. And I do see that organizing my behaviour to reduce the impact of TOU charges is within my control, so if I care, I can minimize the impact. 

Given that I do have children, and do all the laundry in this household, I just find your argument weak. You have the choice to do laundry either during the day, or during the evenings -- like everybody else. In fact, stay-at-home parents have *more* choice than working parents do, because you can physically choose to do laundry at more hours than I can. 

As for doing laundry at non-peak hours, I have exactly as many of those hours available to me as you do. If you don't choose to do laundry in off-peak hours, that's fine. But it isn't a special tax set up to disrupt your lifestyle. It just means that like working parents, you are going to be spending some of your evenings and weekends doing laundry - or paying a small additional sum for the luxury of having the choice to do laundry during the day.


----------



## andrewf

Spidey said:


> I suspect that most of the people who see no problem with this are either without dependents or mostly commuting and working during the peak hours. We're talking about a family lifestyle issue here. It is extremely difficult to be non-productive when one is home all day and then save the chores for later in the evening. As for subsidies for poorer folks, there are none as of yet but such types of benefits usually only apply to very low incomes. I suspect even a one income earner making even 40 k with a spouse and kids at home wouldn't qualify. And my elderly mother's electricity costs have increased significantly and there's been no subsidies that I've heard of to help her out.
> 
> So yes people can work around this, but it negatively affects family life and disproportionately affects the routine and electricity costs of stay-at-home parents.


You could also not sweat it too much. If you really want to use hydro during the peak, go for it. If I were home during the day, I wouldn't spend hours waiting for slightly cheaper hydro.


----------



## kcowan

The rates are going up for everyone. The TOD issue is just a red herring. If you optimize your usage, you will get rates similar to what you are getting today. Most people will pay more.

I think it is an attempt to move power to pay-as-you-gobasis rather than leaving another legacy for the next generation to absorb. (The capital investments needed for new plant.)


----------



## andrewf

^ Bingo. I'll note as a young person, I'm in favour of paying for the capital costs up-front, rather than being stuck with the bill for the boomer's power plants (along with all the other bills they racked up).


----------



## MoneyGal

Andrew - have you seen the stuff on "Generation Squeezed" from UBC?


----------



## Berubeland

As someone who manages two buildings that currently use electric heat, the high cost of heating is a problem. We don't pay the electricity but I can assure you that when the hydro comes around to shut off the hydro, there are 4-5 people who actually get disconnected every single month. 

These are working people for the most part, and because it's all two or three bedrooms they have kids as well. 

I was looking for a program to change heat source in our building, but I couldn't find any. Conversion to gas is unaffordable for us. $500,000 is too much we just can't afford it.


----------



## andrewf

Doesn't that drive down both the value of the property and the rents it can fetch?


----------



## carverman

Berubeland said:


> As someone who manages two buildings that currently use electric heat, the high cost of heating is a problem. We don't pay the electricity but I can assure you that when the hydro comes around to shut off the hydro, there are *4-5 people who actually get disconnected every single month. *


People have to start keeping a budget and micromanage their finances better,
even if they are behind on electricity payments. The power utility doesn't
come around and padlock their hydro meters right away. They are sent
second and maybe third notices first. If they are proactive and call their
utility, and are willing to pay something, the utililty isn't going to shut off their hydro if they are honestly trying to address the deliquent bills. 

IMO, this is typical of the "welfare mentality".. just blow the paycheck 
at once on car payments,car insurance, smokes, booze and eating out...and of course, pay the rent because they don't want to be thrown out on the street.

Pay those big cell phone/internet bills because they don't want to be cut off...
and hmmm...what's left over at the end of the month? ....maybe some food for the kids?..and oh yes... that big hydro bill..we'll defer it to the next two months. 

If high heating bills are an issue, then they should think about the pre-authorized equal billing plan that just about every utility offers instead of the "pay as you use it" plan.


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## carverman

andrewf said:


> Doesn't that drive down both the value of the property and the rents it can fetch?


There are 100% baseboard heated homes in my area. While some owners
have chosen to spend over $10K or more to convert to gas furnaces for
heat/hot water, the cost for most homeowners is just not practical..
at least not yet.
However, inspite of higher heating costs, these homes are still selling quite 
well, it doesn't appear to have deterioted the selling price..at least not so far.

If gas is available on the street, the utility will install a gas meter for just
the hot water tank. Gas baseboard heaters are an alternative to replacing
2 or 3kw baseboard heaters, but I'm not sure on what the cost of retrofit
would be for each room in the house as the contractor has to run in 
3/8 inch diameter copper gas pipes, so that would be drilling through
floors and routing the gas pipe inside?? the walls. 

Because of safety regulations on gas, I believe that the copper gas pipes
(like I have for my add-on gas fireplace), have to be run externally on the
surface of the walls, marked every 2 feet with stickers signifying "NATURAL GAS", so they are readily visible to homeowners/contractors, and less prone to being damaged by drilling through or somebody cutting into the drywall. 

Unlike electrical wiring that trips the breaker (if short circuited when cut into, the gas pipe will leak into the house until it is shut off at the shutoff valve...dangerous in that case! 

This is the way my gas fireplace installation was done, with a shutoff valve
and a 3/8" copper pipe run on the outside of the garage wall. In my case
the only place the copper gas pipe is visible is on the inside of the garage.

However, it is an alternative to electric baseboards, if the regulations allow it
on old construction.


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## MoneyGal

The true cost of conversion is really the non-furnace costs - furnaces wear out and have to be replaced. People who heat with natural gas do not escape the cost of purchasing and installing furnaces.


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## Dana

Berubeland said:


> As someone who manages two buildings that currently use electric heat, the high cost of heating is a problem. We don't pay the electricity but I can assure you that when the hydro comes around to shut off the hydro, there are 4-5 people who actually get disconnected every single month.


Berubeland, did the law recently change in Ontario that the cost of Electric heat can no longer be borne by the tenant, but must be in the Landlord's name? Is that only for new tenancies or is it retroactive for existing tenants?

I do not purchase units with electric heat because of the high tenant turnover it seems to cause.


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## stardancer

Not sure if the ON law has changed; at least I haven't heard. 

When my tenant moved out, hydro put the account in my name; the reason the lady gave was that that apartment was on record as having electric heat so the hydro could not be turned off completely, even though the main heat source is gas. Now my mother lives in that apartment so I just left the account in my name.


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## carverman

MoneyGal said:


> The true cost of conversion is really the* non-furnace costs? *
> 
> - furnaces wear out and have to be replaced. People who heat with natural gas do not escape the cost of purchasing and installing furnaces.


My gas furnance is 16 years old and is going strong. No signs of "wearing out".
So far I've haven't had to replace even one part on it and I don't have
a maintenance contract on it either. 

Yes, the conversion costs are expensive in electrically heated homes. 
To install a forced air gas furnace, you need to install air plenums and run those to upstairs bedrooms/bathrooms. That is an expensive undertaking for 2 storey homes!
Not as expensive on one level bungalows, as most of the ducting can be
done at basement level.

True cost of conversion from electric heating to gas would take about 10-15 
years before any savings would be realized in cost of electricity over gas
and cost of conversion to gas. And you can't have central air with baseboard
heating, so you have to use floor models A/C units that exhaust through windows.


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## Spidey

andrewf said:


> You could also not sweat it too much. If you really want to use hydro during the peak, go for it. If I were home during the day, I wouldn't spend hours waiting for slightly cheaper hydro.


I've decided to accept this advice.

It seems that one thing there is general agreement on, amongst the proponents and opponents of TOU, is that most of us will not or can not change our routine very much. We may run the odd timed appliance over-night but I would guess that those so-inclined were already doing that. And considering that most people cannot postpone dinner preparation until after 7:00, heating an oven or stove will always fall within the most expensive time category. 

All of which seems to confirm the allegation that TOU is really a sneaky way to increase electricity rates rather than an actual attempt to improve conservation or change electricity patterns. Probably a more effective, honest, straight-forward and less costly approach would have been to forgo installing expensive TOU meters and simply raise electricity rates. But then I guess the real intent would have become too apparent.


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## HaroldCrump

Spidey said:


> All of which seems to confirm the allegation that TOU is really a sneaky way to increase electricity rates rather than an actual attempt to improve conservation or change electricity patterns. Probably a more effective, honest, straight-forward and less costly approach would have been to forgo installing expensive TOU meters and simply raise electricity rates. But then I guess the real intent would have become too apparent.


Thank you, thank you for stating this so clearly.
Even with the substantially higher RPP flat rates compared to the year before, many of us would have been better off.


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## carverman

Spidey said:


> All of which seems to confirm the allegation that TOU is really a sneaky way to increase electricity rates rather than an actual attempt to improve conservation or change electricity patterns. *Probably a more effective, honest, straight-forward and less costly approach would have been to forgo installing expensive TOU meters and simply raise electricity rates. But then I guess the real intent would have become too apparent*.


You are being cynical my forum friend. Raising the RPP would penalize everyone regardless of what time of day they used hydro. 
With TOU you are given a choice. You don't want to use the heavy appliances during peak times? ..send out for food and see what that will cost you!

Or, you can start thinking about how much it will cost to turn on that
stove top burner or oven, and think about microwave something because
you are hungry and do the bulk of the cooking after 7pm. If you can't
pay the current TOU rates and quit complaining. 

Unlike the old Ontario Hydro that wasted taxpayers money left and right
and carved themselves (I like that expression ) HUGE fat pensions
from their gross mismanagement..the new split up electricity entities
are into the game to MAKE money, not to sell it at a loss.

IF you were a generator hooked up to the grid, you would be wanting the
best price for each kw you produce to offset your costs and make some
kind of living from it. If not..you would not be in business for very long
as a generator of electric power!


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## MoneyGal

carverman said:


> My gas furnance is 16 years old and is going strong. No signs of "wearing out".
> So far I've haven't had to replace even one part on it and I don't have
> a maintenance contract on it either.


I'd say I was posting under the influence but I don't even drink. 

I was thinking about how to project the break-even costs of moving to natural gas. When you are comparing moving to natural gas against the costs of natural gas, you have to include the capital costs of the furnace as a cost for the natural gas owner. As in: if you move to natural gas, periodically you will have to buy a new furnace, and that has a cost - it isn't a "new" cost borne only by the person who converts to natural gas.

I'm not sure that thought is any clearer now. 

When I replaced my furnace last year, it was 26 years old.


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## andrewf

Toaster ovens are a great alternative to using your oven. That said, electric stoves don't use that much electricity.

I think there are plenty of people who can and have modified their behaviour in response to TOU rates. But we're both speculating. We'd need to see a study of consumption patterns before and after the implementation of TOU to know what effect it has. One thing we do know is that demand for electricity is not insensitive to price, so I think the conclusion that TOU has no effect on consumption patterns is dubious.


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## MoneyGal

andrewf said:


> One thing we do know is that demand for electricity is not insensitive to price, so I think the conclusion that TOU has no effect on consumption patterns is dubious.


This whole thread provides evidence of this. 

Also: crockpots are a great way to get a hot meal at low electricity cost. I turn on my oven ONCE during the week, and that's when I cook my meals for the week on Sunday. It happens to be a low TOU cost, but it works out well for my schedule as well. I can't even imagine cooking whole meals (in the oven) during the week.


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## HaroldCrump

andrewf said:


> One thing we do know is that demand for electricity is not insensitive to price, so I think the conclusion that TOU has no effect on consumption patterns is dubious.


To do that correctly, you need to de-couple base price increases and TOU.
They are very different issues.
Demand may be inelastic for one but not the other, or some combination.
What is hard for many households is not any one isolated factor, but the fact that multiple, killing factors were rammed down our throats at the same time - significantly higher base rates, TOU, HST and of course the immortal DRC, which is probably going to outlive us all.


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## OhGreatGuru

carverman said:


> There are 100% baseboard heated homes in my area. While some owners have chosen to spend over $10K or more to convert to gas furnaces for heat/hot water, the cost for most homeowners is just not practical... at least not yet.
> However, inspite of higher heating costs, these homes are still selling quite
> well, it doesn't appear to have deterioted the selling price..at least not so far.
> 
> ..


I believe the rate structure for TOU is set so that constant-use loads such as electric heating are revenue-neutral, particularly since peak heating demand is at night in our climate. So the rising cost of electric heating is not really related to TOU, it's related to general increases in the cost of electricty. People with electric heating need to look at either reducing heat loss or changing to alternative energy sources. Frankly, with the likelihood that gas prices will soar again once the US economy recovers, making improvements in the building envelope are probably a better long-term solution.


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## andrewf

^ I generally agree. Although, I think natural gas prices will stay low unless there is a moratorium on hydraulic fracking. There is just so much shale gas out there.


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## mind_business

*Electricity Time-of-use Billing*

I'm just curious how many others are already on TOU billing or about to be, and how this will affect your electricity usage habits. I'm also interested in hearing about some other ideas people have done to change their usage habits.

Time-of-use (TOU) billing in our area is about to begin May 23rd. We live in SW Ontario and we're with Energy+.

Our prices will be as follows:

On-peak times: 11.7 cents per kWh
Mid-peak times: 10.0 cents per kWh
Off-peak times: 6.5 cents per kWh (7pm to 7am weekdays & all day Weekends and Holidays)

We have been preparing for this change by doing laundry in the evenings (there's only two of us so it doesn't take too long). We typically keep our thermostat temp at 18 degrees in the winter and 24 degrees in the summer (with central A/C). 

Some other things we're considering is charging our laptops, cameras and cell phones during the evenings only. Turning off our modem and router when not in use (we currently leave them on 24/7). I'm sure there's much more we can do. I look forward to seeing your guy's responses for additional tips.

Not sure if this topic has already been discussed, I couldn't find one ... but I'd be surprised if it hasn't already been discussed. If so, admin please add mine to the original thread.


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## HaroldCrump

We have discussed this topic several times.
Search this section (Frugality) for keywords like TOU, hydro rates, etc.
In particular there was one thread (I think called Energy Usage) dating back to 2009 when the TOU tax grab was first introduced in Ontario.


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## MoneyGal

What HC said. In my own case I costed out the time of use difference and I largely ignore it. The bigger costs on my monthly bill are not impacted by TOU rates.


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## Ihatetaxes

We are on it and the only real conscious change is to do more laundry on the weekend and run the dishwasher at night rather than in the morning on weekdays. It won't get me to change thermostat settings especially with air conditioning and my pool pump runs 24/7 all summer sucking back the juice.


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## MoneyGal

Ihatetaxes said:


> We are on it and the only real conscious change is to do more laundry on the weekend and run the dishwasher at night rather than in the morning on weekdays. It won't get me to change thermostat settings especially with air conditioning *and my pool pump runs 24/7 all summer sucking back the juice*.


That must be some nice van. Or are you heating up the whole river?


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## OhGreatGuru

I think pool pumps run continuously for filtration & to maintain water quality, not necessarily because one is heating the pool. But it's a good question if they really have to. I took a recent vacation to Florida, and the backyard pool system automatically shut down overnight.


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## Ihatetaxes

Guru has it right, it's the filtration pump and it runs all the time because there is a grade between pump and pool and on a timer there is a chance it can lose the prime if shut off overnight. It's a 1.5 HP pump and I would guess it costs me $100 month in the summer. Heater is natural gas and uses about $50-100 month leaving the temp set at 85 all summer with no thermo blanket as they are a pain in the ***. Pool gets used almost every day for 4 plus months and the entire cost for the summer is about the same as one weekend at Great Wolf Lodge so great return on investment for my family. Would never move to a house without a pool.


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## leoc2

OhGreatGuru said:


> I think pool pumps run continuously for filtration & to maintain water quality, not necessarily because one is heating the pool. But it's a good question if they really have to. I took a recent vacation to Florida, and the backyard pool system automatically shut down overnight.


I use a timer on my pool pump so that it runs 10 hours a day with 1/3 of that time is during peak hours and 2/3 of the time is during off peak hours. The solar blanket works well with the occasional use of gas heater to guarantee a comfortable swim for planned social events.


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## Mensa

I have two Hydro One (Ontario) accounts on tou. What I've noticed is that each account has the same percentage on use spread over the three tiers. The breakdown goes: 19% use at peak, 19% at mid-peak and 62% off-peak. The breakdown is the same each and every month. What I find odd about this is that neither of these accounts is for a household. One is for water pumps and disinfection equipment for 96 households. The other is for a meter which sees less than 1 kWh of use a day.

I can't help but wonder how it is that my tenants (most of whom are retired) all use 62% of their water overnight, which is what makes the pumps run and sucks the electricity. Surely more than 38% of the water I supply is used between 7am and 7pm? I also can't reconcile the comparison between the accounts. The 1 kWh/day meter has to do with a television feed for my tenants. Now THAT one I can see being used in the evenings more than the day. So why would the percentage breakdowns be the same, month in and month out?

It's just all too mysterious for me.


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## Tom Dl

andrewf said:


> ^ I generally agree. Although, I think natural gas prices will stay low unless there is a moratorium on hydraulic fracking. There is just so much shale gas out there.


If they keep up the fracking, they will develop the infrastructure to sell it to the world. Right now, the fact that this is an NA market is a terrible tragedy from the industry. They no more want to have gas to heat Canadian homes than they want a made in Canada oil policy. So buckle up.

As far as TOU is concerned, it seem pointless for most people. The difference of a few cents a KW is pennies, the larger heating appliances are probably 1-2 KW, but everyting else is so low, and we are only talking about the marginal price, that I can't see responding to it.

Does anyone know what happened to the plan to ban incandescent lights?


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## andrewf

Mensa said:


> I have two Hydro One (Ontario) accounts on tou. What I've noticed is that each account has the same percentage on use spread over the three tiers. The breakdown goes: 19% use at peak, 19% at mid-peak and 62% off-peak. The breakdown is the same each and every month. What I find odd about this is that neither of these accounts is for a household. One is for water pumps and disinfection equipment for 96 households. The other is for a meter which sees less than 1 kWh of use a day.
> 
> I can't help but wonder how it is that my tenants (most of whom are retired) all use 62% of their water overnight, which is what makes the pumps run and sucks the electricity. Surely more than 38% of the water I supply is used between 7am and 7pm? I also can't reconcile the comparison between the accounts. The 1 kWh/day meter has to do with a television feed for my tenants. Now THAT one I can see being used in the evenings more than the day. So why would the percentage breakdowns be the same, month in and month out?
> 
> It's just all too mysterious for me.


All weekend and holidays are also off-peak.


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