# Roofing job turns into a big dispute and a lien put on the house.



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Can this happen to you?

An Edmonton family says when they


> cancelled a job with a local contractor because of poor-quality work the company responded by placing a lien against their home for more than four times what
> they say they owe.
> Couple say say they can’t borrow any more money to make repairs or finish the job, and have been left with a yard full of debris.





> They hired RRR (roofing/renovation contractor) in April 2013 to clear an ice dam from their roof and then re-shingle it for a contracted price of $14,600.
> Initially satisfied with the work, they then hired the same company to remodel a bathroom and add an extension to the kitchen in their 80 year-old home.





> By late 2013, the couple said the ice-damming they had hired RRR to fix came back worse than ever, pouring water into disabled son's room.
> They told the company they wanted the roof and water damage fixed before the rest of the renovations were finished.
> The couple say they unsuccessfully tried to convince company owner to take responsibility for the damage caused by the new ice dam.
> They also hired an independent inspector to assess the roof and the renovations.





> In reviewing the roofing and renovation work the inspector hired, reported that the quality of the work was “less than acceptable and grossly overcharged.”





> He also questioned whether the addition’s floor could support the new weight of the modified roof but couldn’t reach a conclusion because there was no access built into the foundation.
> Soon after receiving the report the couple served notice to terminate the contract.
> 
> RRR responded by filing an affidavit for a builder’s lien, *swearing the company was owed $107,000 for work done and yet to be completed, and materials supplied and yet to be supplied*.
> ...


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I assume these people signed a contract and have the report from the other company. If they do, they should not be afraid of going to court.

Of course, there are many companies who'll bluff and assume you aren't willing to go to court. 

Then Outback steak house came to Canada, they sued a Canadian company with the name Outback Cafe (or something similar). Outback cafe had legally registered the name long before the big American chain came up to canada, and had only asked for $2,500 to change it's signs and menu. Outback steak house refused, saying even though it was in the wrong (and they acknowledged they were wrong), it had deeper pockets and could outlast the small cafe in court...

I remember this because the little cafe went to the media about it instead of court...outback cafe quickly paid the money to make the changes.

The legal system isn't about what's right or wrong, it's about who's got deeper pockets.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> Can this happen to you?
> 
> An Edmonton family says when they ....


 .. the initial contractor sounds unscrupulous and predatory. The first job (roofing) done should have come with a workmanship guarantee that they should honour. They should fix their damned lousy roofing work first before moving onto the next job, let alone putting a lien on this family's home. At an extortion price of $107K for invisible "work" done, I think this family has no choice but to seek out a lawyer and sue the contracting company first for damages, poor workmanship and the move onto damages to the house, mental distress, etc.

Maybe donald, the formum's roofing expert can weigh in on this situation. :biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> .. the initial contractor sounds unscrupulous and predatory. The first job (roofing) done should have come with a workmanship guarantee that they should honour. They should fix their damned lousy roofing work first before moving onto the next job, let alone putting a lien on this family's home. At an extortion price of $107K for invisible "work" done, I think this family has no choice but to seek out a lawyer and sue the contracting company first for damages, poor workmanship and the move onto damages to the house, mental distress, etc.
> 
> Maybe donald, the formum's roofing expert can weigh in on this situation. :biggrin:


From what I was able to gather with the story..initially the couple seemed satisfied with the roofing job and gave the contractor the go ahead with the renovations. 
After another winter, there was (apparently) another ice dam and that caused leaks inside.

They went into a dispute with the contractor as he was in the middle of the renovation job, and told him to stop work until the roof was repaired.

Whatever else transpired, we don't know from what is reported, suffice to say, they have a mess from the unfinished renovation and more than likely no other
contractor is willing to finish the job until the court case is settled.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> From what I was able to gather with the story..initially the couple seemed satisfied with the roofing job and gave the contractor the go ahead with the renovations.
> After another winter, there was (apparently) another ice dam and that caused leaks inside.
> 
> They went into a dispute with the contractor as he was in the middle of the renovation job, and told him to stop work until the roof was repaired.
> ...


 ... let's see how the judge rules but I'm willing to bet it'll be in favour of the family. The roofing job should have come with a guarantee of some sort (and not 1 year) even though the family was satisfied with what was thought to be "good" work. Turns out it was shoddy or defective work otherwise, why would a new roof leak? Who in their mind would be happy to pay $14K to replace/repair a roof only to see it leaks and then allow another job (even though a different one) to be continued? The contractor should be thinking about their own business "reputation" first instead of holding this family's home hostage.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... let's see how the judge rules but I'm willing to bet it'll be in favour of the family. The roofing job should have come with a guarantee of some sort (and not 1 year) even though the family was satisfied with what was thought to be "good" work. Turns out it was shoddy or defective work otherwise, why would a new roof leak? Who in their mind would be happy to pay $14K to replace/repair a roof only to see it leaks and then allow another job (even though a different one) to be continued? The contractor should be thinking about their own business "reputation" first instead of holding this family's home hostage.


I'll play the devil's advocate here Beav. The "couple" are two women (starts with the "L'word). The roofer did offer a guarantee on his work. The roof leaked because of an ice dam buildup.
I had a similar issue myself this winter in Ottawa after 4 feet of snow accumulation on my flat+ mansard roof. During the thaw (that would be yer Toronto ice storm), the snow on the flat
roof partially melted and I had a 4-5 foot icle (kid you not) hanging off the flat portion of my roof, that crashed down and broke the plastic rain gutter at the bottom of the roof.
It was because of an ice dam on the flat roof. 

My New roofing job (mansard shingles + foam insulation) begins next week. The roofing company I hired is an established company in Ottawa, member of the BBB and comes with liability
insurance, so I know that even if they are a "bit more expensive on the quote" than a "fly by night" roofer that guarantees their roof for 25 years, but nowhere to be found after 1 year,
I can still call them back to "make it right" after next winter. 

Most "roofers" are in there to make a fast buck and then disappear. Some of them even advertise on Kijiji...because it's a free or low cost ad. You can't take a chance on a a roof that
will cost thousands to replace and then another thousand or two to repair, if something is not done correctly.

I don't know the full story on these two and their relationship with the roofing contractor..but if he was a "handyman" type of contractor, that could do your roof + remodel your
kitchen and bathroom..I would be concerned. Generally a "jack of all trades", is a "master of none".


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Caverman,

I think you need to look up the definition of devil's advocate. Nothing that you brought up in your statement has any bearing on the case.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

People wonder why there is regulation after regulation after regulation..............

Well, here is the reason.

It should always be expected, human nature being what it is........that in every instance there will be some unscrupulous people preparing to take advantage of any gaps in regulation..........be it consumer protection, environment protection, worker protection, investor protection......a very lengthy list of protections.

De-regulation has consequences.....that don't surface until there are a myriad of problems which force consideration on re-application of the regulation.

Licensing of trades.........falls in the same category, and caution should be exercised with claims that licensing shouldn't be required.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> People wonder why there is regulation after regulation after regulation..............
> 
> 
> 
> ...


..and Hudak wants to de-regulate the trades by closing down the certification process....if that happens..watch the roofing scams start to increase.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

They need to see a lawyer at this stage. Something they probably should have done before trying to cancel the renovation contract. It does sound like there is bad workmanship involved. But I fear their lawyer is going to tell them that poor performance of the roofing contract was not, by itself, grounds for canceling the second and separate renovation contract. If wonder if they had household insurance? If they did, their insurer could have sued the contractor for the roof failure.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> T poor performance of the roofing contract was not, by itself, grounds for canceling the second and separate renovation contract. If wonder if they had household insurance? If they did,* their insurer could have sued the contractor for the roof failure.*


???...the roof didn't fail. It was an ice dam that caused leakage under the shingles somewhere and some water dripped into the ceiling of the son's room. I would suspect that they
didn't pay attention to snow buildup on the roof during the winter. I had a lot of snow build up on my flat roof in Ottawa and that was starting to cause huge icicles on my roof in December.
Fearing more snow in Jan/Feb, I called in a experienced and insured roofing company to shovel my side and the neighbours side, since it is a semidetached with a common flat roof.
Cost me $200 + Gst...same for the neighbours. Didn't have any problems after that.

I doubt very much that you would be able to file a claim for an ice dam..and if you do with the way insurance companies are these days...watch your premiums go up at renewal and
in some cases..if you make a claim (even a small one), they refuse to sell you insurance because in their eyes, you are too much of a risk.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Since I don't have access to the full article, I'll have to say that the ice dam is the fault of the roofer. From the snippets, it would appear they actually redid the roofing instead of just replacing the shingles. Insufficient ventilation or insulation would lead to an ice dam.


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## lb71 (Apr 3, 2009)

carverman said:


> The "couple" are two women (starts with the "L'word).


Why does this matter?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

lb71 said:


> Why does this matter?


Just some extraneous information.:biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

bgc_fan said:


> Since I don't have access to the full article, I'll have to say that the ice dam is the fault of the roofer. From the snippets, it would appear they actually redid the roofing instead of just replacing the shingles. Insufficient ventilation or insulation would lead to an ice dam.


Yes it could very well be..but the roofer would not be directly responsible for the insulation. Snow melt runs under the shingles or finds it way under a flashing, I would think. 
Don't know what kind of roof it was or what they did when they redid the roof, so it's all speculation at this point.
http://homerepair.about.com/od/exteriorhomerepair/ss/Ice-Dam_2.htm


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

everything is speculation, i had a issue with a roof i did last year(vaulted ceiling-a frame)everything was in accordance.The homeowner had ice damming and was aggressively on me.I went to his residence and his ridge vent was buried in snow!the ridge that ran across the roof ridge the whole run of the house,the problem:it needed to be cleared so the air could vent and not be trapped in the attic(hot air with no place to go and common physics of science dictates hot moist air turns into liquid,anybody interested in science knows natures principles-man CAN not change science)all it took was clearing the vent.
Moral of the story-if you live in canada have your roof serviced once or twice a year(200 bucks)to insure everything is as it should be!
Often homeowners fail to account for the role they play(example would be getting a landscaping company to lay new sod but the homeowner fails to cut and water said sod and than blames the landscaping contractor.Who is really at fault?who has wrong expectations?


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

And carv,from a roofing contractors perspective when you break down everything a 12k roof is not 'pure' profit....a breakdown on the job- that would give you a clear picture of what the profit comes out to- would likely shock you.
The materials are easily half the price(6k)than you got a crew of say(3 men)lets say 2 days(each averaging 30 a hr(no mention of workers comp/insurance/tool upkeep)let's say 9 hrs each day=18 for 2 days(each man gets 540)x 3=1620
6000 +1620=7620 now the sales rep for the roofing company gets a 10% cut of each job he sells 10% of 12k=1200---7620+1200=8820.....company still has to pay cut to government on sales(lets not forget!)we will leave this out of the math i am giving you rough rough calculations off a napkin here.
1200-8820=3180 of pre tax profit for the owner(gst is likely in that as well)so back another 5% out and than said company who is running above board and has warranty for 5 yrs will spend another few hundred on routine call backs(a blow off or Clearing vents etc)
Roofing is cut throat and is not all gravy money i can assure you of that....Most companies are running at around 20% profit on each job and that is in a perfect case.....does this seem like gross pricing to you?for the job creator in the economy?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

donald said:


> And carv,from a roofing contractors perspective when you break down everything a 12k roof is not 'pure' profit....a breakdown on the job- that would give you a clear picture of what the profit comes out to- would likely shock you.


Donald..no arguments from me.



> The materials are easily half the price(6k)than you got a crew of say(3 men)lets say 2 days(each averaging 30 a hr(no mention of workers comp/insurance/tool upkeep)let's say 9 hrs each day=18 for 2 days(each man gets 540)x 3=1620
> 6000 +1620=7620 now the sales rep for the roofing company gets a 10% cut of each job he sells 10% of 12k=1200---7620+1200=8820.....company still has to pay cut to government on sales(lets not forget!)we will leave this out of the math i am giving you rough rough calculations off a napkin here.
> 1200-8820=3180 of pre tax profit for the owner(gst is likely in that as well)so back another 5% out and than said company who is running above board and has warranty for 5 yrs will spend another few hundred on routine call backs(a blow off or Clearing vents etc)
> Roofing is cut throat and is not all gravy money i can assure you of that....Most companies are running at around 20% profit on each job and that is in a perfect case.....does this seem like gross pricing to you?for the job creator in the economy?


Uh..no argument from me. My roofing job is about 11K (Hst included). The roofer I selected mentioned he has gang of 10 experienced and (insured) roofers. He expects about 2 days 8am-8pm.

The reason is that the old plywood has to come off to get at the loose fit batts and replace those with 3" of styrofoam and 1 inch of Tiger foam..that is extra as they normally don't do insulation
at the same time and don't carry the specific products in stock, so I had to buy these on my own..about $4K + taxes. 

He is charging extra labour to install the insulation (by the hour) and estimated about 6 hrs..but not sure if these 6 hours are within the roofing schedule or extra. He is also installing new bluewood
plywood throughout my side, ice dams, flashing and painted window flashings to eliminate the paint peel on the recessed window wells where snow sits during the winter, eliminating the
necessity to ever paint again,,which is not only costly for me, but it doesn't last that long.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

The reason a lot of roofing companies shut down is not due to being a crook,the really reason is it is a low barrier business and often a new roofing contractor comes to learn that he is going broke because he has no grasp on how to operate a business,the craftsman that is a good roofer and tries his hand(that is why 8 out of 10 roofing contractors fail within the first 5 yrs)And to make matters worse joe six pack canadian does not want to pay for a reputable roofing contractor that is legal(aka a tax payer)so you have a under ground unregulated roofing economy that is caused mostly from the public(the truck and ladder guy that comes in at 8k on 12k)and has zero idea what the hell he is doing)But the homeowner chooses that by in large because he does not want to pay for a professional roofer(his buddy's nephew that is 20 yrs old will do)


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

donald said:


> T does not want to pay for a reputable roofing contractor that is legal(aka a tax payer)so you have a under ground unregulated roofing economy that is caused mostly from the public(the truck and ladder guy that comes in at 8k on 12k)and has zero idea what the hell he is doing)*But the homeowner chooses that by in large because he does not want to pay for a professional roofer(his buddy's nephew that is 20 yrs old will do)*


LOL! I found out the hard way with a bit of landscaping and interlock on my steps and walkway. 
Found "cheap landscaping" on Kijji. Guy shows up with very light tin trailer with one wheel wobbly (broken spring) , and gives me a verbal estimate..ya no problem, about 2 days and $600. 
Fortunately not trusting these guys completely, I had bought all my own materials, interlock, stone dust, GRA and 4x4 landscape lumber.

First day he shows up with 2 guys that dug up everything, left piles of dirt everywhere, but at least stacked the old patios stones in my back yard, He was going to remove them at the end of the job.

Second day, he didn't show up.
Third day he shows up by himself and tries to do an uneven interlock with no mechanical tamper...reject!

I was going to fire him right on the spot, but he calls me back and assured me he had found an experienced interlock guy...ok I give him one last chance.

Shows up at the beginning of the following week with 2 guys (Russian immigrants= very cheap labour), and these guys dig up the 16 inch granular A, that my cement contractor had tamped down last fall to accept the interlock...and started to lay them with a trowel and a rubber hammer to tap in the bricks.. I warned them all right then that if theire was a dip in the 10x 8 interlock in front of my garage..I would reject it...they left a big mess (arrived at 10am and finshed at 4pm). 
They swept in this sand-screte mixture between the bricks. It rained...BIG PUDDLE IN THE MIDDLE and it's not draining!

I am FURIOUS..call up the landscaper and FIRE HIM..NO PAYMENT, because he left piles of gravel everywhere, didn't do any of the landscaping lumber, and it cost me $300 to call in a guy with a truck and trailer to dispose of the mess on my driveway.

Then this "landscaper" guy calls me up and demands $250 for the hours he had spent "preparing for the interlock"..I told him no way, but felt sorry for the 3-4 days he spent messing around..not for him.but for his immigrant labourers,
so I gave him a final payment check for $250 and then called two pro landscapers for a quote on what it would cost to do the job properly.
They came and laughed..and told me in a nice way.."well you get what you pay for".
The estimate I got was for $1600..Hst included, 
This week my friend and I, did the landscape 4x4 frame around the flower bed properly. He did the manual labour and I supervised.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

The thing i don't get about people's logic(not directed at you carv by the way)Is a person will have a expensive asset(house)that costs them 500k and they cinch on a few thousands dollars(extra,with protection etc,legal services ect) to save and will opt hiring handyman off kijji 
The only reason kijji works is because the public seeks it out.
There is nothing stopping anyone from placing a ad on such websites.
If you ever notice(homes on homes disasters for example)OFTEN it becomes clear that the homeowner is at the very least to blames(example hiring a roofer to renovate a entire house)often you can spot the reg flags(you should be)


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

donald said:


> The thing i don't get about people's logic(not directed at you carv by the way)Is a person will have a expensive asset(house)that costs them 500k and they cinch on a few thousands dollars(extra,with protection etc,legal services ect) to save and will opt hiring handyman off kijji
> The only reason kijji works is because the public seeks it out.
> There is nothing stopping anyone from placing a ad on such websites.
> If you ever notice(homes on homes disasters for example)OFTEN it becomes clear that the homeowner is at the very least to blames(example hiring a roofer to renovate a entire house)often you can spot the reg flags(you should be)


Donald, I normally don't skimp on hiring good contractors. Unfortunately with my disabilty I can no longer do the work at my house that I did back 10-15 years ago. I am practically in a wheelchair now.

With my Nortel DB pension in process of wind up, I thought that I could get by "on the cheap; with these Kijiji advertiser "cheap landscaper". There is no way, I would take a chance on roof or any
structural part of my house..but again..I live in a working mans neighbourhood, where the houses are listed for $289-290K tops. If I had a million dollar house like the rich folks in the GTA,, I would
only hire pros with a good reputation. 

Ok I lost this time, fortunately it cost me only $550 (debris removal and final payment) to get this joker to go away, I will NEVER repeat the same mistake again!

My first pro quoted me $5600 (Hst included( no wood step framing..all stone the way it should be..but with the roofing/insulation costs, I decide it was too much.

Now the second quote, the contractor who will provide new levelling and asphalt on ONE HALF (MY HALF) also put in a quote for $1600 for the interlock and he's got the job as I want the asphalt
and the interlock to match up perfectly.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

one word.....references


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Eder said:


> one word.....references


Yes. But it's hard to find references for advertisers on Kijji. It's a free-for-all, fly-by-nighters, work-under-the-table and pay no HST (BTW, in Ontario, even as a registered business, if
your yearly receipts are under $30k, you don't have to register for a HST number..so this encourages a lot of "pay-me-under-the-table",and I will give you a 15% discount on my VERBAL estimate.
No paperwork = no paper trail. 

Sometimes it DOES WORK OUT though ..and lets face it..none of us want to pay any more taxes than we absolutely have to. :biggrin:


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Yeah but carv you answer the question yourself-'It's hard to find references for advertisers on kijji'
which means-don't use kijji!!(this in itself is a red flag)would anyone hire a mechanic off kijji?(then would would anyone hire a roofer)The roofers that are worth having do not hang around kijji
Second reg flag is 'receipts under 30k)do you want this guy?30k and under in receipts is a sign you are dealing with a risky company.
The best way to find a roofer is from trusted friends family or business network(like eder says)People that give out a reference without anything to gain from it.
Kijji is good for a place to buy used items under 100 dollars not to find a roofer to bid on a 7500 hundred dollar roof.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

donald said:


> Yeah but carv you answer the question yourself-'It's hard to find references for advertisers on kijji'
> which means-don't use kijji!!(this in itself is a red flag)*would anyone hire a mechanic off kijji?*


Funny that you would mention that Donald..we just did that a week ago. My friends 2002 Mazda protege was oveheating. It was diagnosed at a local garage as a possible stuck thermostat and
a crack in the rad tank at the top. He paid $40 + taxes for the diagnoses and used Loctite weld to fix the crack on the rad tank at the top. 
Tried driving the car around the block, it started to overheat.temp on the temp guage in the red.
So having some previous shade tree mechanic skills, I decided that the alumuminum rad these cars use was blocked (corrosion inside the water tubes), because he use the "el cheapo" recycled 50-50 coolant mix at CTC..as they say..you get what you pay for these days.

The same shop that did the diagnosis wanted $500 +taxes to replace the rad and another $100+ taxes to do a reverse flush on the block and heater core. 
He doesn't have that kind of money now, and the car is worth less than $1000 now. 

So I go online and find a replacement rad reasonably cheap + shipping on Ebay. Get it delivered in 5 days. Now we need a mechanic because
he doesn't know how to do it, and I can't do it any more.(.although I have changed rads in my younger years on my old Detroit iron chevs/pontiacs).

I found an ad on Kijjii for car repairs, and the guy (working at a local rad/brake shop) said he would do it for $140 cash. 
I asked him if he was a certified mechanic and he said he was, and he was moonlighting taking on these driveway repair jobs to make extra money,
cuz he had a baby on the way.

Fair enough, I decide to give him a try, he showed up and did the rad and thermostat swap, applied new Japanese car -aluminum rad compatible coolant. 
No leaks and the car is no longer
overheating..saved about $200 in the end over the local shop.





> The best way to find a roofer is from trusted friends family or business network(like eder says)People that give out a reference without anything to gain from it.
> Kijji is good for a place to buy used items under 100 dollars not to find a roofer to bid on a 7500 hundred dollar roof.


Where did you read that I hired a roofer on Kijji? The roofers I hired (online and coming in tomorrow to start with the insulation ). is well known established company that has been in
business for 20 years, fully insured and has lots of online references from satisfied customers. I have a proper estimate and brochures of the certanteed shingles, the ice shields
and all the things they use as standard for any roof. The job including the taxes is nearly $11,000. 

The insulation upgrade is extra from the roof estimate and since he can't estimate how much the labour will be..it's by the hours spent. I bought all the materials.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I was speaking broadly carverman.Just in case somebody thinks kijji is a good idea(M.O,esp applying my own knowledge of knowing this type of businesif anybody is reading this at the point or its just you and i lol)
Online is good(though even than some guys are slow to adapt,being trades guys for years and being stubborn because knowbody did that 8 yrs ago and further back)
Good luck with your roofing job


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Though i am surprised they gave you the opportunity to buy the material!(can be a iffy sign)Most contractors don't like/need to do that because they want their rebates and perks from their sales guys at supply house(that is a nice break because at least you can use your visa for points)
They also don't like it because they don't have control if there is a material problem(they have the ability to remedy a material problem fast and easy if something would occur)
normal homeowners or retail guys that don't know people very well in the roofing business(suppliers)usually have a hell of time,you will be calling some 'head' office in the states flaying around lol-serious


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