# No, immigration is not some magic pill for saving the economy



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Opinion: No, immigration is not some magic pill for saving the economy


‘When all you have is a hammer, all the world’s a nail’ appears to capture Canada’s immigration policy




www.theglobeandmail.com




Key point.
"Study after study after study shows that sudden expansions in immigration increase the size of the economy (the GDP) but don’t change GDP per person or the average wage – how well off people are. The research shows that immigration tends to lower wages for people who compete directly with the new immigrants (often previously arrived immigrants and low-skilled workers) and improves incomes for the higher skilled and business owners who get labour at lower wages. That is, it can be an inequality-increasing policy."


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Sure. So what do you suggest, ukrainiandude? Cut back by 50% the targets?

You know that in China, Japan those countries already make it difficult for anyone wanting to immigrate there. Japan has a high standard of living, though expensive for housing. Lousy situation still for university-educated local women who want to advance in the workplace.

Even though both countries having falling local birth rates for past decade and more. Then the culture is changing, where the elderly are not looked after as much as frequently as in the past. They have some looming problems in the next 15-20 years. Huge.

How are we going to deal with this, short of AI /robots for:

hospitality and restaurant industry, plus grocery stores
harvesting of fruits and veggies on large farms
health care
construction
Long haul truck drivers across Canada. There's a real shortage. More South Asian-Canadian drivers now....Most of them didn't show up at the truck convoy in Ottawa. They were probably dismayed by narrow-minded thinking. Self-driving trucks across Canada for thousands of km. will not solve the problem.
etc.
How about we reverse things for local women and reward them handsomely every year for producing a baby every 2-3 years? And forget about having them contribute to the local economy outside of home --as they are now.

And you know, 40% of graduating medical interns....are female in CAnada? It is the norm...it was for my sister's graduating class at U. of T. That's partially why some doctors don't want to work killer weekends or 10+ hr. long days.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

jlunfirst said:


> what do you suggest


Bring in one million immigrants annually, solve the labour shortage crisis, drive GDP and real wages into the ground and make immigration from Canada into the USA even more compelling.
The math behind this is simple
2013 Canada GDP $1,847 trillion $USD, population 35.08M that is $52,651 $USD per capita 
2021 Canada GDP $1,991 trillion $USD, population 38.25M that $52,052 $USD
2025 Canada GDP


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

GDP in 2021 would have been much higher were it not for the pandemic.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Pretty much the only argument for increasing population is that government services and government debt is constructed like a pyramid scheme where the base needs to continue to grow


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

damian13ster said:


> Pretty much the only argument for increasing population is that government services and government debt is constructed like a pyramid scheme where the base needs to continue to grow


YOu earn a high salary which is not the norm at all of Americans.
It isn't.

Meanwhile while visiting my Toronto sister and hubby, they also had his cousin from Washington DC. A lawyer (used be an engineer before returning for 2nd degree) working for federal govn't...sure he talks about his own care. ie. his hip surgery which was successful.

No, he doesn't sit there comparing systems. His family background was low income while his /our generation worked their asses off in school and careers to make it financially easier on selves.

Contrast against someone I know whose relative had cancer (in Boston). It costed the family $230,000 for care.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

damian13ster said:


> Pretty much the only argument for increasing population is that government services and government debt is constructed like a pyramid scheme where the base needs to continue to grow


And you're a CAnadian working in the U.S. for how many years? My best wishes.

I was just chatting with my 24 yr. nephew who, is visiting his Toronto family, works for Meta in San Francisco. He graduated from Uof W. He and GF are still stoked to be there, despite some job uncertainty. He's not certain about his job. She works for Stripe. 

I would encourage any recent graduate to go for jobs anywhere in the world that meets their needs. That's the best time in life to do it.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

I think your post belong to different topic so I won't reply to them here. I worked in US for 5 years, and moved there again after War Measures Act was introduced. Having polish heritage, after what we went through in 1981 in Poland, I leave the moment authoritarianism happens


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

damian13ster said:


> I think your post belong to different topic so I won't reply to them here. I worked in US for 5 years, and moved there again after War Measures Act was introduced. Having polish heritage, after what we went through in 1981 in Poland, I leave the moment authoritarianism happens


I have different opinion in terms of what Canada experienced was quite pale....vs. what goes on mainland China. Otherwise why were the HK Freedom protestors arrested etc.? Meanwhile China has just sent 70 fighter jets with the last 24 hrs. into Taiwan's zone.

The whole world's attention somewhere else now, not there.

I don't discount your in Poland experience at all.

I do think Canadian-born folks are more innocent. If it weren't experiences of my parents, my relatives, other friend's relatives in mainland China, I would be completely innocent...and clueless like some truck convoy protestors...over just a vaccine mandate. And CAnadians weren't even shut down from travelling outside their own city during covid, like Chinese were until recently.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

jlunfirst said:


> Contrast against someone I know whose relative had cancer (in Boston). It costed the family $230,000 for care.


Healthcare isn't free either way. Unless we just print CAD to pay for it?

The largest boomer generation of Canadians are heading into peak medical care age while millennial birth rates have plummeted. It is a pyramid scheme and we need young people to form a base of wage slaves to support all the social services we promised the boomers (rather they promised)

Canada is clearly using immigration to prop up the pyramid. Problem is the healthcare system is already stressed which just cause more healthcare workers to burnout. There's no real plan of action either. Canadian institutions will be in reconstitution for awhile now.

We will see how long printing fiat works. The pandemic was a small taste of what that causes


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The viable alternative is for people to pay for the healthcare and other services they expect to receive through higher taxes.

I would be happy to pay more taxes to sustain the benefits of being Canadian.

Raise the HST......increase income tax rates.....eliminate some tax deductions.


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## Gumball (Dec 22, 2011)

I dont understand why our government doesnt stop the hostility towards our oil industry and instead hash out a deal with our major oil companies where they levy any new drilling with a small fee per barrel of oil to support a infrastructure / health care fund. Kind of like a soverign wealth fund that some nations do...

I imagine these oil execs would appreciate that instead of the hostility they get from Mr silly socks and that greenpeace tree hugging kook stephen guilbeault... does that seem like a reasonable thing to do or am I off my rocker?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> The viable alternative is for people to pay for the healthcare and other services they expect to receive through higher taxes.
> 
> I would be happy to pay more taxes to sustain the benefits of being Canadian.
> 
> Raise the HST......increase income tax rates.....eliminate some tax deductions.


Maybe you should pay market rates for rent to start

You have a pension that goes up faster than inflation itself and rent capped at 2% increase

All these policies that made life easy for boomers will destroy the youth


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

No, corporate tax cuts is not some magic pill for saving the economy either.

Neither is budget cuts or infrastructure spending.

There is no ONE thing. It's a combination of a lot of things that includes factors outside the country.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

m3s said:


> Maybe you should pay market rates for rent to start
> 
> You have a pension that goes up faster than inflation itself and rent capped at 2% increase
> 
> All these policies that made life easy for boomers will destroy the youth


For someone who whines constantly about the government borrowing money, you don't seem to understand the other options.

Cut services or raise taxes. There is no magical internet money solution.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Gumball said:


> I dont understand why our government doesnt stop the hostility towards our oil industry and instead hash out a deal with our major oil companies where they levy any new drilling with a small fee per barrel of oil to support a infrastructure / health care fund. Kind of like a soverign wealth fund that some nations do...
> 
> I imagine these oil execs would appreciate that instead of the hostility they get from Mr silly socks and that greenpeace tree hugging kook stephen guilbeault... does that seem like a reasonable thing to do or am I off my rocker?


That is likely 50 years too late.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> For someone who whines constantly about the government borrowing money, you don't seem to understand the other options.
> 
> Cut services or raise taxes. There is no magical internet money solution.


You mean like printing CAD? That is literally the magic money solution

Unfortunately we promised too much to boomers (rather they promised to themselves) Now we have boomers collecting pensions that don't exist for younger people doing the same job earning less in real terms and paying higher cost of living

But inflation is good for GICs according to the boomers living in $1000/month rentals in a major city when the average rent is now $2.5k


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Sums it up. Majority of houses in my new development were bought by foreigners and I'm seeing a lot of middle aged immigrants looking for rentals/room mates


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

I believe it's primarily Canadians investing in 2nd /multiple properties ....more than we realize. 
*Refrain from *mixing immigration and price of housing together. It's a pile of self-interested Canadian real estate agents and CAnadian investors who want profit returns when they sell. Will Canada's ban on foreign home buyers make houses more affordable? Some experts have doubts | CBC News Don't ever tell me, none of us aren't like this for an investment property or even our own too-big home now.

Just to be clear about my position on this: I don't have a problem with the vacancy tax. Sure it's a headache to investors but those with enough money, should be able to make it work or have a local friend/relative do house-sitting.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

jlunfirst said:


> I believe it's primarily Canadians investing in 2nd /multiple properties ....more than we realize.
> *Refrain from *mixing immigration and price of housing together. It's a pile of self-interested Canadian real estate agents and CAnadian investors who want profit returns when they sell. Will Canada's ban on foreign home buyers make houses more affordable? Some experts have doubts | CBC News Don't ever tell me, none of us aren't like this for an investment property or even our own too-big home now.
> 
> View attachment 24050
> ...


Yes CBC is not biased at all. The data is very poor. It's not tracked at all

I know most of the houses in my new development are foreign owned because I asked who the landlord was when viewing. It's also very evident when I looked up the websites and used google translate

It's easy to buy things through a local manager/relative and it won't appear foreign on that dataset


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is no shortage of homes for sale. There is a shortage of qualified buyers who can afford them.

Maybe homes built by private industry are like super yachts and luxury vehicles......not everyone can afford one.

If that is the case, government should concentrate on building affordable homes and rental units and let private industry do what they do.

They are only interested in building increasing larger homes for higher prices and higher profit.

The real estate industry has a lot of mouths to feed that contribute nothing towards the actual building of a home.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

m3s said:


> Yes CBC is not biased at all. The data is very poor. It's not tracked at all
> 
> I know most of the houses in my new development are foreign owned because I asked who the landlord was when viewing. It's also very evident when I looked up the websites and used google translate
> 
> It's easy to buy things through a local manager/relative and it won't appear foreign on that dataset


My point is...it's Canadian real estate agents out for themselves.....to earn lots of money. Period. They encourage it, the bidding and all that. Yes, sure I live in a building where a few units are investments. Canadians....Caucasians by the way, living elsewhere.

3 units owned and occupied by working Canadians of Asian descent. One of them is....Me.

We're walking down a dangerous path. But go ahead.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Seems like a no brainer to have higher property taxes on 2nd homes

But then you also have flippers who buy a "primary residence" to renovate for exactly 6 months or however long they need to occupy to no be taxed as an investment or business.

So just tax everyone with property taxes. Or print more fiat


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

It is also common knowledge that Canadian real estate is used for money-laundering. 
The new rules are not very prohibitive as there are plenty of exceptions


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Mortgage Interest rates have become prohibitive at these prices, and more rate hikes are coming.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

damian13ster said:


> It is also common knowledge that Canadian real estate is used for money-laundering.
> The new rules are not very prohibitive as there are plenty of exceptions


True. Money laundering comes from worldwide through Canada...Russia, Middle East... We must remember this also.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

The foreign ownership data only looks at who is on the property title, but there are many other ways that foreign money gets into the market. Money laundering is only the most obvious way, but there are also students who are PRs or Canadian citizens who are buying homes with their parents money from overseas. This is very common in the Lower Mainland.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

m3s said:


> Sums it up. Majority of houses in my new development were bought by foreigners and I'm seeing a lot of middle aged immigrants looking for rentals/room mates


Thanks for sharing the link. It's been some time since I have watched a segment from Peter Ziehan. Not to generalize but I find his knowledge of global politics to be quite good from an American. I haven't got a chance to read his new book on globalization but have it on request from the library.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

londoncalling said:


> Thanks for sharing the link. It's been some time since I have watched a segment from Peter Ziehan. Not to generalize but I find his knowledge of global politics to be quite good from an American. I haven't got a chance to read his new book on globalization but have it on request from the library.


I recognized the voice as a guest from some podcasts and the name but just happened to come across this

He seems to understand Canadian demographics better than 99% of Canadians


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

People weren't forced to participate in the frenzy of bidding wars or putting 6 figure deposits on pre-construction homes, or waiving inspection, financing and all other conditions on the sale.

The sales offices were mobbed by people desperate to sign deals on a new house, any house, anywhere in the subdivision. Please take out money.

When they got in and signed a deal.....they cheered like they had won a lottery.

Canadians who bought homes for outrageous prices only have themselves to blame.

Did they actually believe it was normal to pay 2% mortgage interest rates or that homes routinely rise 30% in value every year ?

Their fear of missing out (FOMO) is going to be a financially painful lesson for them and it will hurt for a long time.

The parents who encouraged their kids to abandon all common sense and buy homes they couldn't afford, and even took out second mortgages and HELOCs on their own homes to give their kids the down payments (which their kids couldn't even manage to save up on their own) ........shame on them too.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Some old people are really clueless to reality

They bought houses in their 20s for peanuts too

Hypocrites


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I remember a get together with my brothers and sisters and they all told me how their kids bought huge new homes or traded up a suitable home for a much larger one.

When I mentioned the fact that interest rates would inevitably go up and that would drive up their payments.....they said....you are nuts if you think the government will ever allow that to happen.

They smiled and laughed and said their kids were making all kinds of "free money" because they were lucky enough to buy a home.

They said........too bad your son didn't buy a home because now he is locked out. Guess who is crying the blues now ?

Maybe the parents will chip in a few thousand a month and pay off their own HELOC as well.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

All these immigrants who came to Canada and bought over priced homes are now facing big losses.

From what I have read, the immigrant buyers have disappeared from the market. The speculators are trying to rent condos to cover 30% of their costs.

There are tens of thousands of condos being built in Toronto with no buyers. It is going to be a catastrophe for a lot of developers and builders.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

m3s said:


> I recognized the voice as a guest from some podcasts and the name but just happened to come across this
> 
> He seems to understand Canadian demographics better than 99% of Canadians


I remember reading the Accidental Superpower a few years ago.

Teaser Videos - Zeihan on Geopolitics


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

sags said:


> People weren't forced to participate in the frenzy of bidding wars or putting 6 figure deposits on pre-construction homes, or waiving inspection, financing and all other conditions on the sale.
> 
> The sales offices were mobbed by people desperate to sign deals on a new house, any house, anywhere in the subdivision. Please take out money.
> 
> ...


I think we need to be careful of other family situations, where ie. a millenial couple right now, or millenial single solo person. genuinely does want to buy home and the homes are very expensive in the 3 big Canadian cities. And these folks have jobs where they live and are required to work on-site or work part-time on site. So it's not about moving to a smaller community where it's cheaper real estate. It's not that simple at all.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

m3s said:


> I recognized the voice as a guest from some podcasts and the name but just happened to come across this
> 
> He seems to understand Canadian demographics better than 99% of Canadians


He sometimes seem to talk a bit too much in broad strokes. Often when he speaks of the US, he seems to mean North America (incl Canada and Mexico). Demographic trends aren't all that different between Canada and US. Canada has more skilled immigration, the US has more undocumented immigration.

Canada's immigration policies have helped the GTA become one of the preeminent tech hubs in North America. Tech industry employment is on track to surpass SF next year.









Toronto-Waterloo Tech Workforce Expected To Surpass Silicon Valley In 2023 - Slashdot


Thanks in part to Canada's immigration policies, the tech sector in the Toronto Waterloo Corridor will soon have more workers than the San Francisco Bay area. The Record reports: During 2021, the San Francisco Bay area added 14,000 jobs, increasing total tech employment there to 378,870. During...



news.slashdot.org


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

andrewf said:


> He sometimes seem to talk a bit too much in broad strokes. Often when he speaks of the US, he seems to mean North America (incl Canada and Mexico). Demographic trends aren't all that different between Canada and US. Canada has more skilled immigration, the US has more undocumented immigration.
> 
> Canada's immigration policies have helped the GTA become one of the preeminent tech hubs in North America. Tech industry employment is on track to surpass SF next year.
> 
> ...


My nephew lives in San Fran, CA and working for Meta (after graduating a yr. ago. He also did a co-op work term there) and is a U of W graduate, doesn't know about the future his job. He knows various Meta mates who were recently laid off.

If U.S. prospects aren't there, he also knows his Canadian tech. future...is best to return to the GTA /Golden Horseshoe Triangle. He grew up in Toronto.

Right now, he's somewhat intoxicated with living in a foreign country, the famed Silicon US Valley area. His gf has full-time job at Stripe down there, and graduated in same yr, same university as he. He's only 24 yrs. old. We would be all like him @his age: enjoying the good life.

Cheaper (though getting expensive) to get a place in Guelph, Cambridge or K-W. All good communities.. I'm biased. I grew up in K-W. I found it more interesting than London.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

andrewf said:


> He sometimes seem to talk a bit too much in broad strokes. Often when he speaks of the US, he seems to mean North America (incl Canada and Mexico). Demographic trends aren't all that different between Canada and US. Canada has more skilled immigration, the US has more undocumented immigration.
> 
> Canada's immigration policies have helped the GTA become one of the preeminent tech hubs in North America. Tech industry employment is on track to surpass SF next year.
> 
> ...


I know an IT guy who moved his family (wife, 2 young teen boys) from CAlgary to Texas. They were only there for under 2 yrs.

He actually returned to our organization. He and wife didn't like certain things (not sure what), and the fact that gun culture was much stronger there. The children are born in Calgary. He recently told me his wife was pursuing her university pharmacy degree here for credentials in Canada...it was a long time dream of hers. He had been working for our organization for at least 12 years before the trek to Texas.

So all the respondents in this forum talk about themselves driving the job/home relocations....but if they are married, there is always the other spouse to consider in life and financial planning.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

jlunfirst said:


> Right now, he's somewhat intoxicated with living in a foreign country, the famed Silicon US Valley area. His gf has full-time job at Stripe down there, and graduated in same yr, same university as he. He's only 24 yrs. old. We would be all like him @his age: enjoying the good life.


Spent extended time there working

California is on another level climate wise. The air doesn't hurt your face for 5 months of the year. They do have the fire problems now. Still Toronto you get all the traffic and cost without all the cool stuff California has to offer from surfing to skiing. Not the same league at all. San Fran is a cesspool of homeless drug addicts now - not that Vancouver is much better

And meanwhile all the Californians are moving to Colorado, Texas and Florida.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

We don't have enough homes, food and jobs for the people we have, and you want to bring in 1.5 million more people, house them and pay them minimum wage. Our government needs to wake up. Take care of the people we have and stop trying to please our landlords and business owners.
The government isn’t doing this too benefit Canadian’s. They are doing this to benefit large corporations. They are bringing people to work jobs for wages that Canadian’s won’t work for.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Column Highlights of a Quebec specialist


One of the country’s foremost immigration experts believes the provinces, especially B.C. and Ontario, need more control over where permanent and temporary newcomers arrive in the country.
Anne Michèle Meggs, former head of planning for Quebec’s immigration ministry and a widely cited left-wing analyst, says Ottawa’s approach to migration is “out of control” and has extremely little co-ordination with most provinces.
Quebec is the sole province with significant powers over immigration, but in any given year it accepts only about one-eighth of all arrivals.
Meanwhile, Ontario and B.C., which have meagre influence over migration, together absorb more than two thirds of newcomers.
Ottawa’s top-down changes — which now bring in more guest employees and working foreign students per year than permanent residents — have the strongest impact on services provided by provinces and municipalities.
It’s creating chaos for the provinces. As well as for would-be permanent immigrants, who face long wait times, and temporary migrants, who often live precariously and are exploited by bosses.
Meggs recognizes Immigration Minister Sean Fraser’s announcement last week to offer work permits to spouses and children of temporary foreign workers was done in the name of keeping families together, but she’s concerned it’s another one of Ottawa’s “ad hoc measures” to bring in low-skilled workers to fill low-paid jobs.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602321526090522625


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Canada is pushing its tech sector into a race to the bottom*
When the country sells itself as a purveyor of cheap tech labour instead of a leader of global innovation, colonialism is the inevitable result








Opinion: Canada is pushing its tech sector into a race to the bottom


When the country sells itself as a purveyor of cheap tech labour instead of a leader of global innovation, colonialism is the inevitable result




www.theglobeandmail.com





old but valid points


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

You could email something similar to MOP


I hope this email finds you well. My name is X and I am writing to you as a constituent of Y. We need to have a conversation about immigration. Canada just posted record population growth with a total of 822,866 international migrants over the last 12 months. That figure includes immigrants and non-permanent residents like students. I understand that this was done in order to stabilize our population pyramid and I agree that immigration will provide growth to our economy for decades to come.

However, I'm concerned that the capacity of Canada to absorb international migrants is straining. The CMHC reported on April 21, 2022 that rental affordability is set to decline due to increasing rental demand and low stocks of rental housing. This is despite the Bank of Canada hiking mortgage rates to ~6%.

Temporary foreign workers

I understand the need to use TFWs to help Canadian farmers harvest their crops. 10,000 farm workers were brought in during Q2 2022, out of a total of 45,000 TFW approvals. However, TFW positions appear to mostly appear in underpaid difficult jobs like cooks, truck drivers, fish processing workers, food service workers... This suppresses wages for low-income Canadian citizens. It also disincentivizes business from investing in technology, as there are less pressures from labour costs.

International students

The dramatic increase in international students has been a great success of Canadian universities. However, the capacity to absorb these numbers is straining. I think the main beneficiaries (Universities and Governments) should be forced to fund the residential housing for international students in a way that minimizes strain on the rest of the Canadian population. Letting international students work over 20 hours a week also provides another source of cheap labour for Canadian business.

There needs to be a recognition that these policies have costs on low-income Canadian working class citizens. There also needs to be an expansion of public infrastructure to support this population growth.

In summary I think we should:


Lower non-farm TFWs
Force beneficiaries to pay for international student housing
Examine Canada's physical capacity to absorb these high numbers
Reduce our immigration targets with a focus on quality over quantity
Invest in infrastructure to support our growing population
I would appreciate it if you could please consider my thoughts on this matter. Thank you for your time and consideration.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Different parts of Canada also have different attitudes towards immigration. 
When the government announced its aggressive targets of up to 500,000 new immigrants a year, the province of Quebec, which gets to set its own immigration limits, said it would not take in more than 50,000 a year. That would mean that Quebec, which has 23% of the country's population, would only be taking in 10% of the country's immigrants. 
Quebec Premier Francois Legault said he is concerned more immigrants would weaken the French language in the province.
"Already at 50,000 it is difficult to stop the decline of French," he said.
And while it's true that Canada may have more room to grow, some places are still feeling the crunch. Major cities like Toronto and Vancouver - where about 10% of the population currently lives - have affordable housing crises. 
In a poll of 1,537 Canadians conducted by Leger and the Association of Canadian Studies, three out of four said they were somewhat or very concerned about the affect the new plan would have on housing and social services. Almost half, 49%, said the targets were too high, while 31% said that they were the right number.








Canada: Why the country wants to bring in 1.5m immigrants by 2025


Some Canadians are concerned the country's aggressive immigration targets are too high.



www.bbc.com


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> We don't have enough homes, food and jobs for the people we have, and you want to bring in 1.5 million more people, house them and pay them minimum wage. Our government needs to wake up. Take care of the people we have and stop trying to please our landlords and business owners.
> The government isn’t doing this too benefit Canadian’s. They are doing this to benefit large corporations. They are bringing people to work jobs for wages that Canadian’s won’t work for.


Future CPP contributions and health care funding have to come from somewhere to fund an aging, retired demographic. I don't have any data on what immigrants are coming and what skillsets they have or which sectors they are working in despite education and experience. I do know that there is still a shortage of skilled trades workers in this country even with the housing slowdown. Construction is more than just housing. I am also not sure what proportion of immigrants are using Canada as a temporary base or if they have longer term ambitions of staying in Canada. Again, I don't have any data on this claim either. Ideally, immigrants that are going to increase GDP, start and raise families as has been done wih previous generations is what is needed.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

The USA got 14% of immigrants while Canada got 25% and growing 
The USA got more baby boomers too.
Data from the U.S. Census Bureau show that there are 76.4 million baby boomers.
Guess what
Right now, the latest data shows that we have over 10 million jobopenings in the U.S.—but only around 6 million unemployed workers.

Why the USA isn’t going all crazy on immigration??????

So I call it all BS. That Canada with its less than 1 million jobs is in labor crisis


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The data shows population declines, despite the immigration.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

_Right now, the latest data shows that we have over 10 million job openings in the U.S.—but only around 6 million unemployed workers. _

To be considered "unemployed" people need to be collecting EI benefits and searching for work, hence the mismatch in numbers.

The US is a big, diverse country and it could be that many people who aren't working live in geographical areas with few jobs available.

There may be lots of jobs available in Seattle or Miami.......but not so much in rural Kansas or Mississippi.

There is likely a mismatch in skills as well, as the source of employment opportunities continue to evolve.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Well, they did have well over 2mln people walk across the border, so they aren't going crazy on legal immigration.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The US has a southern border problem they have never properly addressed, because their political system is in gridlock.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

sags said:


> The US has a southern border problem they have never properly addressed, because their political system is in gridlock.


Maybe they have addressed it. Just give 'em all a free ride to Roxham Rd. Problem solved.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

sags said:


> The US has a southern border problem they have never properly addressed, because their political system is in gridlock.


The Democrats want the border open because they think illegal aliens will vote for them. The Republicans want it open because they're stupid.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

HappilyRetired said:


> illegal aliens will vote


Can they vote ?


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Can they vote ?


In California they are automatically added to the voter roll when they get a driver's license. Some of them do vote.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

OTTAWA - 
A new poll suggests the vast majority of Canadians are worried about how the federal Liberal government's plan to dramatically increase immigration levels over the next few years will affect housing and government services.
75 per cent of poll respondents agreed that they were very or somewhat concerned that the plan would result in excessive demand for housing as well as health and social services.








Canadians divided on Ottawa's plan to admit more immigrants: poll


A new poll suggests the vast majority of Canadians are worried about how the federal Liberal government's plan to dramatically increase immigration levels over the next few years will affect housing and government services.




www.ctvnews.ca


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

londoncalling said:


> ... I don't have any data on what immigrants are coming and what skillsets they have or which sectors they are working in despite education and experience.


Types of Immigrants









Industrial Sector Info









Employment Rate













londoncalling said:


> ... I do know that there is still a shortage of skilled trades workers in this country even with the housing slowdown ...


I am not sure why housing/construction is top of the list for skilled trades. I know a fair number of nurses, RPNs, IT systems administrators, accountants and IT network specialists who are recent immigrants.

Cheers


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Eclectic21 said:


> Types of Immigrants
> View attachment 24063
> 
> 
> ...


Personal story:
I worked for 3 years in Metro VAncouver for a major engineering construction project: construction of the Golden Ears Bridge (4 or was it 6 lane road bridge with bike lanes) and 5 highway approaches to it. It was a venture comprised of Bilfinger Berger, a global German engineering firm and Chm2hill, the American engineering firm.

I worked for the German firm, who was the primary lead design-build firm. Yes, the firm hired German engineers from Bilfinger, some with international experience. It didn't make much sense to ..me. Knowing CAnada has a pile of P.Eng engineers plus recent graduates. Plus the German firm did hire temporary foreign worker labourers from: Thailand, Panama, etc. after making their case the federal authorities. Of course, yes, these foreign workers were paid less than Canadians of which some of the trades are unionized here.

Yes some of the workers...who were engineers from their respective countries (Germany, Philippines) after the project, became permanent residents with their families and now live in Metro Vancouver. I don't know if they are working as engineers now.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

jlunfirst said:


> Plus the German firm did hire temporary foreign worker labourers from: Thailand, Panama, etc. after making their case the federal authorities.


Companies love cheaper foreign labour. They are always lobbying the government to get cheap workers.

From their perspective it's better in many ways. People on foreign visas or limited permits will not stand up for their rights and probably don't even know their rights. So you can easily exploit them and take advantage of them. They won't "talk back" and some are afraid to lose the income and have to return to their countries.

This makes them a convenient kind of indentured labourer.

Big companies like Intel make heavy use of this. Where I was living in America, Intel had hired a huge numbers of engineers and technicians from India. They too will not ever "talk back" and won't show assertiveness. If you ask them to work excessively, they will suck it up and do whatever they are told -- yes boss, whatever you'd like boss.

Many of those Indian workers are desperate to immigrate to America and are terrified of losing their jobs and having to return to India. That desperation gives the employer some extra power over these kinds of employees.

In contrast, domestic workers (Canadians or Americans) are a real nuisance. They know their rights under the law. They "talk back" to you. They say "no". If you mistreat them, they'll go to a regulator or to a lawyer. If you do something wrong, they might even go to the cops. They don't have any real desperation or big fear of losing their jobs.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

james4beach said:


> Companies love cheaper foreign labour. They are always lobbying the government to get cheap workers.
> 
> From their perspective it's better in many ways. People on foreign visas or limited permits will not stand up for their rights and probably don't even know their rights. So you can easily exploit them and take advantage of them. They won't ever "talk back", will not ever be assertive, and some are afraid to lose the income and have to return to their countries.
> 
> ...


Totally true about not knowing labour and safety law in Canada(which is provincially regulated), as well as not questioning boss, in order to protect their eligibility for permanent residency. and that extends into housing situations, ie. lousy /unsafe accommodations.

However, I do wish to be careful not to slag immigrants for every freakin' problem that's in our face. And right now, we are talking about immigrants who are skilled, contribute to economy. In general, there are more immigrants who have a set of skills, higher education than ie. 70-100 years ago. We really need to be careful...because the stories of educated immigrant taxi drivers are often quite true.

Or they speak English well, have western manners, etc. Just talk to any South Asian-Canadian taxi cab driver....which I do...for past few yrs. Yea, they speak up for their rights: I see signs in the car: no abuse, etc. Some with plastic protective shield behind their seat. Good for them.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Quebec is a good example of a wise immigration policy. The housing is reasonably priced because of this and health care system isn’t overwhelmed. And guess what, no labor crisis in Quebec either and economy is growing too. Offering good wages too. 
Why should not this be Canada wide ?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

jlunfirst said:


> However, I do wish to be careful not to slag immigrants for every freakin' problem that's in our face


Just to be clear about what I meant. I'm not blaming immigrants for any of what I wrote. I'm blaming the companies who take advantage of and sometimes exploit new immigrants or people hoping to get PR.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Quebec is a good example of a wise immigration policy. The housing is reasonably priced because of this and health care system isn’t overwhelmed. And guess what, no labor crisis in Quebec either and economy is growing too. Offering good wages too.
> Why should not this be Canada wide ?


Because of Quebec's language preference law for French, then there's just less folks going there. The Quebec human rights tribunal doesn't have a good reputation among the allophones (language other than English or French) there and visible minorities.

The reality is English language is the global business power language. Even publishing in academic journals..a researcher is at a distinct advantage to become fluent in English and publish in English to reach a worldwide academic audience.

It has been shown every few decades in Canada's history in the past 150 yrs., that it's easy to lay the blame on immigrants for: job competition, salaries, price of housing, etc. They are very easy targets.

Also people have to remember, alot of immigrants aren't rich enough to buy a home right off the bat. It takes a few more years to get established in Canada with a job, language, etc. I realize many folks here don't have parents who are immigrants and haven't lived the acculuration process.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

jlunfirst said:


> then there's just less folks going there


No labor crisis? Housing is cheaper. Higher wages. So less immigration is a good thing.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

james4beach said:


> Just to be clear about what I meant. I'm not blaming immigrants for any of what I wrote. I'm blaming the companies who take advantage of and sometimes exploit new immigrants or people hoping to get PR.


Sure, you can blame the companies, but it's the government that let's excessive immigrants into Canada.

But the government can do no wrong in you eyes.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

james4beach said:


> ... In contrast, domestic workers (Canadians or Americans) are a real nuisance. They know their rights under the law ...


You must be in special circles.

I know of many Canadians who put up with company practices that were illegal, at multiple companies I worked for. There were some who fought it but in no way, shape or form were they the majority. Most shrugged their shoulders, bitched and kept working for the company.

I'm not saying it is on the same level as a foreign worker who can be deported at any time for petty things including injuries at work. 


Cheers


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

HappilyRetired said:


> Sure, you can blame the companies, but it's the government that let's excessive immigrants into Canada.


So for the Canadians I worked with where the company cancelled their banked over time without pay or lieu time (for one co-worker a typical month was to lose twenty hours) or the one that was fired for having a heart attack at work - I guess the company has no responsibility then?

Cheers


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Eclectic21 said:


> So for the Canadians I worked with where the company cancelled their banked over time without pay or lieu time (for one co-worker a typical month was to lose twenty hours) or the one that was fired for having a heart attack at work - I guess the company has no responsibility then?
> 
> Cheers


You're arguing with me on something that I didn't say.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Ukrainiandude said:


> No labor crisis? Housing is cheaper. Higher wages. So less immigration is a good thing.


Ukrainiandude, I'm sorry we just aren't getting enough Canadians to work in the farm fields, restaurants, health care, etc. The other option is for Canadians to produce more babies. Unless we are willing as consumers to pay MORE for restaurant meals, groceries (not pay the CEO/senior management), etc., the wages will be as is. Switzerland has expensive/higher cost stuff...because they can't grow/produce it themslves anyway. 

Here's Japan in same problem as us. Not enough babies and overcrowding. Here is aslocountry with a high standard of living, but not necessarily fair working conditions. the culture works *people hard: * Japanese families reportedly set to receive 1 million yen per child for moving out of Tokyo (msn.com) Japan is known to limit immigrants of any type. But they might have to rethink this.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

jlunfirst said:


> we just aren't getting enough Canadians


All I am saying Canadian government should implement Canada wide the same immigration policy (bringing the same percentage of immigrants to general population) used by Quebec.
Quebec has growing economy, no labor crisis and good wages. At the same time housing is affordable and climate is relatively mild.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Ukrainiandude said:


> All I am saying Canadian government should implement Canada wide the same immigration policy (bringing the same percentage of immigrants to general population) used by Quebec.
> Quebec has growing economy, no labor crisis and good wages. At the same time housing is affordable and climate is relatively mild.


At this time, I'm sure there are some great jobs in Quebec. Go forth, Ukrainiandude. Do you speak French well? Otherwise, one's future might be a bit more limited working there. Premier Legault has made it clear, fears of some francophones for loss of cultural identity (or is it loss of political leverage?) due to language loss. Maybe some forum members who worked in Quebec can share their experiences on local language requirements and career advancement, while living and working in Quebec.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Japan should be a warning to all the western upside down populations that something is wrong

Way too late at this point anyways


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

jlunfirst said:


> At this time, I'm sure there are some great jobs in Quebec. Go forth, Ukrainiandude. Do you speak French well? Otherwise, one's future might be a bit more limited working there. Premier Legault has made it clear, fears of some francophones for loss of cultural identity (or is it loss of political leverage?) due to language loss. Maybe some forum members who worked in Quebec can share their experiences on local language requirements and career advancement, while living and working in Quebec.


There are American companies in Quebec. English speaking working environment. I personally know people with zero French (may have picked a few words spoken French while living there) working for several years in Quebec already.
Therefore your concerns are unfounded.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

jlunfirst said:


> At this time, I'm sure there are some great jobs in Quebec. Go forth, Ukrainiandude. Do you speak French well? Otherwise, one's future might be a bit more limited working there. Premier Legault has made it clear, fears of some francophones for loss of cultural identity (or is it loss of political leverage?) due to language loss. Maybe some forum members who worked in Quebec can share their experiences on local language requirements and career advancement, while living and working in Quebec.


I'm a French-speaker and I live in Montreal, Quebec. My current client is one of the big Canadian names. Founded and headquartered in Montreal. The team I'm working with hired undergraduates in Montreal. Many of them are immigrants. They studied in English at Concordia or McGill. They speak only English (and their native language which is not French). Almost all of my meetings are in English because you could have 9 French-speakers and 1 English-speaker and we'll all start speaking English. Actually, the requirement for the job was to be fluent in English (not French, that's only bonus points), because they have a lot of employees in Ontario.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

MrBlackhill said:


> I'm a French-speaker and I live in Montreal, Quebec. My current client is one of the big Canadian names. Founded and headquartered in Montreal. The team I'm working with hired undergraduates in Montreal. Many of them are immigrants. They studied in English at Concordia or McGill. T*hey speak only English (and their native language which is not French). Almost all of my meetings are in English because you could have 9 French-speakers and 1 English-speaker and we'll all start speaking English. Actually, the requirement for the job was to be able to speak English (not French, that's only bonus points), because they have a lot of employees in Ontario*.


I'm not surprised...as I said for the rest of Canada, even though we are officially by law, for certain govn't services, English and French, the power business language in Canada and globally, is English. So the few Quebeckers, that we read about in the news, who want more French spoken in Quebec for service delivery in Quebec, are probably minority in reality?

I know people will argue vociferously with me, about dominance of Spanish language. My response would be: um....really? I think in Asia (which is a huge amount of increasingly educated folks), the preferred European language for those living in Asia, who want to / need to learn for global competitiveness and maximum career opportunities is.....English for past decade or so. This will continue. It was pretty obvious to me, when we went vacationed there.

Similarily in the Chinese community in Quebec, I'm aware enough immigrant parents want their child to become more fluent in English.

Nevertheless, I'm always impressed to meet some trilingual Canadians from Montreal: Chinese dialect, English and French. (Of course trilingualism often isn't equal fluencies in all.)


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Opinion: Canadians are right to worry about immigration levels *
Almost half of Canadians think Ottawa's target of 500,000 immigrants a year is too high, poll finds

In Switzerland during the 1970s an economic boom led to labour shortages and immigration was liberalized. It turned out that the need to produce housing infrastructure and public services for these immigrants actually worsened the labour shortage. The silent majority of Swiss citizens organized and took advantage of the opportunity to get government policy changed by demanding a public referendum that ultimately ended the liberal immigration policy.









Opinion: Canadians are right to worry about immigration levels


Canadians are worried that Ottawa's ambitious immigration target of 500,000 newcomers a year will overwhelm the housing market. Read on.




financialpost.com


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

jlunfirst said:


> So the few Quebeckers, that we read about in the news, who want more French spoken in Quebec for service delivery in Quebec, are probably minority in reality?


No. English is the business language when going international. Big cities are concentrated in international business. Montreal is a business city where all the knowledge of English is concentrated, but outside of Montreal it drops a lot.

On the island of Montreal:

48% speak French at home
24% speak English at home
In Quebec city CMA:

95% speak French at home
1% speak English at home
Outside of census metropolitan areas:

92% speak French at home
4% speak English at home
Similar picture when it comes to knowledge of English.



jlunfirst said:


> I know people will argue vociferously with me, about dominance of Spanish language.


English is obviously the most influential language. But Spanish has the second most native speakers. Interestingly, French has very few native speakers, but it's an influential second language spread all around the world, making it rank in the top 3.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Opinion: Canadians are right to worry about immigration levels *
> Almost half of Canadians think Ottawa's target of 500,000 immigrants a year is too high, poll finds
> 
> In Switzerland during the 1970s an economic boom led to labour shortages and immigration was liberalized. It turned out that the need to produce housing infrastructure and public services for these immigrants actually worsened the labour shortage. The silent majority of Swiss citizens organized and took advantage of the opportunity to get government policy changed by demanding a public referendum that ultimately ended the liberal immigration policy.
> ...


We're comparing apples to cherries....both equally good fruit but on totally different scales and depth. Switzerland is geographically a TINY country with limited natural resources, not a large, diverse manufacturing base, etc. Canada in terms of what it does and its potential is on a totally different scale..and also geography.

Switzerland the great tax shelter/haven for the more monied folks, who created their wealth outside of Switzerland.

I wish I truly understood why this bothers you so much? Do you just want to win an argument and create alot more resentment towards immigrants who are coming here anyway?

I feel very much some folks here are also just engaging in a theoretical argument and all of this is turning very inward.

Meanwhile I have an 88-yr. mother who raised 6 university-educated children all gainfully employed in Canada (except 1 died) except she still doesn't know much English (and has gr. 10 education). My siblings run around helping after work. Did our family lower the wages of others?


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

jlunfirst said:


> I wish I truly understood why this bothers you so much?


Canada should except the same percentage of immigrants to population as Quebec. That’s all.
Quebec has no labor crisis, growing economy, good wages and affordable housing.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

jlunfirst said:


> Nevertheless, I'm always impressed to meet some trilingual Canadians from Montreal


Missed that part of your post.

There's a lot of trilinguals in Montreal, but also all around the world. I think many English-speakers don't get how lots of people speak multiple languages. It's estimated that 13% of the world's population is trilingual. That's 1 in 8. Now go in metropolitan areas and that's even more, much more.

Many of my colleagues speak:

Arabic, French & English
Spanish, French & English
An Eastern Europe language, French & English
I was born in Quebec in a family of farmers who speak only French, yet here I am now speaking 3 languages (French, English, Spanish) and learning a 4th one (German). And my wife was born in Canada from French-speaking parents, yet she speaks 5 languages (French, English, Portuguese, Spanish, Japanese).

It took me 1 year to learn Spanish as a hobby using free resources. It's the easiest language for French speakers. German is harder, but at least there's so many words similar to English.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

MrBlackhill said:


> Missed that part of your post.
> 
> There's a lot of trilinguals in Montreal, but also all around the world. I think many English-speakers don't get how lots of people speak multiple languages. It's estimated that 13% of the world's population is trilingual. That's 1 in 8. Now go in metropolitan areas and that's even more, much more.
> 
> ...


My partner was German...immigrated as a young boy. So I agree, it's a harder language to pick up (to me) than French. Even he complained some ridiculousness for some German words for a super long word to convey a noun. I never absorbed much, I just know how to recognize spoken German when I hear it..vs. Russian, Czech, etc. When we travelled in Europe, if he failed to speak German accurately, he tried as last resort, to French. His German was always better than French, he could read some basic German.

He didn't absorb anything from me since I've lost alot of fluency in my Chinese dialect, even though I didn't learn English until kindergarten, yet born, raised in CAnada. I can only speak/understand basic...which can create serious challenges in family communication with mother, other relatives. I understand how some francophones in Quebec feel about preservation of language since it is directly tied to identity. It's also cool to think automatically / abit differently because of linguistic structures / words that aren't easily translatable to 2nd language.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Germans and Italians have inverted pyramids which means the tax base and productivity will get destroyed this decade.

Canada will probably not look the same in a few decades but if it doesn't bring in enough immigrants to build a tax base of workers it will suffer the same fate.

Unfortunately the elders did not maintain an environment where people wanted to have children


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

m3s said:


> Unfortunately the elders did not maintain an environment where people wanted to have children


Spot on. I'd say the global economic system is not offering an environment where people want to have children.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Still, there is an easy solution here - and only problem is that it isn't politically popular.
Decouple retirement from population growth. Government services don't have to be designed as a pyramid scheme


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

damian13ster said:


> Still, there is an easy solution here - and only problem is that it isn't politically popular.
> Decouple retirement from population growth. Government services don't have to be designed as a pyramid scheme


It's not politically popular for people who expected those benefits

Unfortunately they also happen to be the larger bulk of the upside down pyramid and majority rules whether it is sustainable or beneficial in the long term

The minority propping up their benefits are feeling the weight


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

damian13ster said:


> Still, there is an easy solution here - and only problem is that it isn't politically popular.
> Decouple retirement from population growth. Government services don't have to be designed as a pyramid scheme


Canada is already much further down this path than many countries. The only way to really do this is to grow CPP even further, to eventually provide fully sufficient income replacement in retirement. Currently with the expansion, it is designed to replace 33% of income to 82k. Contributions would have to rise even further to provide, say, 50% replacement. Even then, I worry that longevity risk (that lifespans begin to grow faster than assumed in the actuarial models) is significant.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Liberals bring in influx of immigrants without a plan to support them *
Canada's record immigration targets would be great news, if not for the fact that we’re not well equipped to accept them
That’s a 6.4 per cent increase over 2021 — and this year aims to admit 465,000 new residents, which will be another 7.7 per cent increase over 2022. These numbers don’t include temporary foreign workers or international students, which are also rising at record rates.
Immigration isn’t inherently good for a country, or even for immigrants, in and of itself. Positive outcomes for all parties require careful planning and a sense of realism. Unfortunately, it appears the Liberals have neither.
Our health-care system ranks poorly against peer countries and seems to be only getting worse. We can barely even care for sick children in our major urban centres, let alone rural areas. Family doctors are practically the new Polkaroo.
Our housing situation is dismal. We don’t have enough homes, and the ones we do have are exorbitantly expensive and out of reach for all but the very wealthiest young Canadians and newcomers.
It seems like we have shortages of every type of basic infrastructure and service, from transit to schools and childcare spots.
International students are frequenting food banks, living in crowded and often unsanitary rooming houses and even driving five hours –– each way –– to attend classes.
At a certain point, we will get diminishing returns. While more immigrants mean more tax dollars, we don’t get to just take from them without giving anything back. They, too, require doctors, affordable homes, schools and passports in a timely manner. They use subways and parks and, eventually, long-term care homes.
By failing to invest heavily in infrastructure and government services, the Liberals are exacerbating resource scarcity and intensifying competition for fundamental goods and services.
Historically, this never ends well. Eventually, people look for someone to blame for their declining quality of life, and that group tends to be newcomers.
To be clear, such scarcity isn’t the fault of immigrants. It’s the fault of governments that either failed or didn’t bother to properly plan to support their targets. Yet that will be of little consolation if Canadians’ historically welcoming nature begins to take a turn.








Sabrina Maddeaux: Liberals bring in influx of immigrants without a plan to support them


Canada's record immigration targets would be great news, if not for the fact that we’re not well equipped to accept them




nationalpost.com


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

andrewf said:


> Canada is already much further down this path than many countries. The only way to really do this is to grow CPP even further, to eventually provide fully sufficient income replacement in retirement. Currently with the expansion, it is designed to replace 33% of income to 82k. Contributions would have to rise even further to provide, say, 50% replacement. Even then, I worry that longevity risk (that lifespans begin to grow faster than assumed in the actuarial models) is significant.


One has to raise retirement age significantly.
Either officially (not going to happen as you automatically get voted out)
or unofficially (inflation eats away the benefits and people still have to work until 75 because they can't afford to retire on CPP/OAS).

Or overhaul entire system and decouple it from population growth and inflation


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

damian13ster said:


> One has to raise retirement age significantly.
> Either officially (not going to happen as you automatically get voted out)
> or unofficially (inflation eats away the benefits and people still have to work until 75 because they can't afford to retire on CPP/OAS).
> 
> Or overhaul entire system and decouple it from population growth and inflation


Canada has gone with option 3

Defund healthcare and encourage medical assistance in death

Forget about exporting LNG to Europe that's not ESG


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

_Historically, this never ends well. _

That would be factually incorrect. It has always ended well with every wave of new immigrants.

The same conservative anti-immigrant rants were used against past immigrants, including the Syrian refugees that conservatives claimed would cause all kinds of disruption.

Trudeau managed the situation seamlessly, with the assistance of many Canadians who stepped up to support the new arrivals.

I think it has more to do with the ability of the government in power than problems with immigration.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If housing for immigrants is a great concern, I have posted previously on how to address the housing shortage, in the same way it was accomplished in the past.

Garth Turner discussed the tried and true solution on a recent blog post on his website. Past generations knew how to fix problems instead of complaining endlessly.

_Then those who are pushing for construction at all costs (like Mr. Trudeau & Mr. Ford) should have a look at (a) what Canada did when we were in a similar pickle and (b) how we can corral the expectations kiddos have today.

After the Second World War (when we still trusted Russians) the Dominion had a big housing problem. Tons of soldiers settling down. No place to go since pre-war the economy had been in the dumpster and construction was sparse. Besides, during the war thousands had flocked to the cities to work in munitions factories. The need for housing was unparalleled.

When hostilities broke out the feds quickly created The Wartime Housing Corp., which erected scads of single-family houses – framed in wood, two bedrooms, 1.5 storey, unfinished basement, one bathroom, no garage – in cities across Canada to rent to wartime trades workers desperate for accommodation.

When victory came, the pattern was repeated. *More than a million “Victory Houses” were constructed*, creating permanent rental homes for veterans who were later able to buy them for between $6,000 and $7,000 with the agency (which became CMHC) providing financing.

*The key was simplicity, standardization, pre-fabrication and modesty. Many of these homes were thrown up in 36 hours with lumber produced to standardized lengths and widths so it could be shipped anywhere to build copies of the same design.*

Of course, thousands still stand. Families live in them yet. Take a look around you._



_Says Toronto architect Catherine Nasmith: *“It’s the first mass-produced idea of the first little house, on a little lot, with a little garden. It’s a pretty big idea.”*

And it is. So what’s stopping this from happening today? And would people buy a modest little house that has zero pretentions, displays no wealth and does nothing but keep you safe? After all, at 900 square feet, a Victory House is barely bigger than a condo, with two bedrooms up and three or four little rooms below. It is efficient, practical – *and would likely cost less than $200,000 to raise, plus land.*

Now contrast that with what builders are building, and buyers buying.

The size of the average Canadian home is now exactly twice that of a Victory House, at 1,800 square feet. In BC and the GTA, typical houses are greater than 2,000 feet. Growth has been exponential since the 1970s, when the average was just over a thousand feet. We have the third-largest homes on the planet (after the US and Australia), and the second most space allocated, per person (620 feet)._

Victory — Greater Fool – Authored by Garth Turner – The Troubled Future of Real Estate


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

sags said:


> If housing for immigrants is a great concern, I have posted previously on how to address the housing shortage, in the same way it was accomplished in the past.
> 
> Garth Turner discussed it on a recent blog post on his website.
> 
> Victory — Greater Fool – Authored by Garth Turner – The Troubled Future of Real Estate


The best way to fix a problem is to prevent the problem in the first place. For example, high blood pressure due to obesity? Lose weight instead of taking blood pressure pills.

Too much immigration and not enough homes? Stop or reduce immigration.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

sags said:


> If housing for immigrants is a great concern, I have posted previously on how to address the housing shortage, in the same way it was accomplished in the past.
> 
> Garth Turner discussed the tried and true solution on a recent blog post on his website. Past generations knew how to fix problems instead of complaining endlessly.
> 
> ...


While such homes may be cheap to construct initially, that pattern of development consumes a lot of infrastructure (road, sewerage etc.) per dwelling.

It's also nice and all that the house might cost $200k (doubtful), but with land in the GTA selling for well over a million per acre, 900 sqft bungalows on a quarter acre would not be all that affordable. Low-rise development is a way to build a lot of affordable housing, but it's going to be in the form of townhouses, stacked towns, etc. This form is already quite popular in the GTA. We just need to make it easier and legal to build duplex and triplex forms like those seen in Montreal, to provide a different option for rental accommodation.


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