# Pensions and Divorce



## Rebecca (Aug 10, 2014)

I hope that someone on this board has some information that I can pass along to my brother.

He is nearing retirement age and is wondering how and if his divorce in the 80's will affect his pensions and survivor benefits for his current wife.

He was married to his first wife in 1975 and they separated in 1981. They didn't bother divorcing until 1988 though, when my he decided to marry his current wife, whom he met in 1987. He no longer has any divorce paperwork, other than the certificate of divorce itself. There were no children or assets involved, and it was a very amicable, quick process. 

What he needs to know now though, is if the previous wife has any claim to his CPP or defined benefit pension, when he retires at 65 in 2020. Can she just walk back into his life and ask for a cut? Or do so retroactively if he decides to take his CPP early? There has been no commuication between the two since the divorce, and he doesn't even have a clue where she is.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

Off the top of my head yes, she can apply for her share, had a friend that found out the hard way.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

My brother's ex wife filed for her share of his pension about 6 years after divorce ,CPP and the military has a set formula based on the time of marriage etc if I recall correctly.


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## Dogger1953 (Dec 14, 2012)

Rebecca - I can't comment on his defined benefit pension, but there is no time limit for his ex-wife to apply for a CPP credit split. The split would only cover the 6 years of 1975-1980 though, so in a worst-case scenario his age-65 would be reduced by approx. $84 per month. The reduction would be less than that if his ex-wife had any earnings those years herself or if he's able to drop out some/all of those years under his general (17%) dropout when he applies for his CPP.

The effect of any CPP credit split is the month following receipt of an application, so he doesn't need to worry about retroactivity.


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## Rebecca (Aug 10, 2014)

Thank you all for your replies. 

Nice that there won't be a retroactive issue. 

And because she was definitely working during their marriage, I guess that the amount won't be much, because while he always contributed the maximum amount, and she didn't, at least she probably contributed half or more.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

This is why couples are supposed to have separation/divorce agreements to settle such issues, in writing, at the time. Did they file a DIY divorce?


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## Rebecca (Aug 10, 2014)

No, they each had a lawyer, but because it was so long ago, my brother doesn't remember much about it at all, and only has the divorce certificate itself, nothing about terms. They both had jobs, so both paid CPP, both had company pensions, but his contributions and pension were probably better than hers. He thought that everything about them was history (since they didn't have kids or property), until he read something recently about pensions being part of a couple's assets when they divorced. I wonder how these things were settled back in the 80's? Might it have been very different?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The lawyers in question (perhaps even the court) would still have a copy of the separation/divorce agreement terms, including division of property. Those things would have been agreed to at that time AND should have been implemented with paperwork. Your brother's CPP year by year earnings statement record should show what was divided back in those days.


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## Rebecca (Aug 10, 2014)

Thanks, AltaRed. I will tell him to look for the CPP statement records to see if anything is there and also to pull out the divorce document again to see if his lawyer's name is listed so that he can contact him (he doesn't remember the lawyer's name either!).


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If they both paid into CPP, they would have the right to claim a portion of each others, which simply wouldn't be worth the hassle or legal costs.

No property, no assets, no kids while married............it isn't worth worrying about.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Rebecca said:


> ... I wonder how these things were settled back in the 80's?


The guy in Ontario that I talked to was thankful his ex-wife was being reasonable. She was allowing him to gradually pay her for her share of his DB pension over time instead of demanding one lump sum. He said if she wanted a lump sum - it would have bankrupted him.


That said ... unless the lawyers are really shady, I expect one or both would have been familiar with the law at the time and built it into the settlement. I suspect the main risk is if the legislation was changed later and made retroactive.


Cheers


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## Rebecca (Aug 10, 2014)

sags said:


> If they both paid into CPP, they would have the right to claim a portion of each others, which simply wouldn't be worth the hassle or legal costs.
> 
> No property, no assets, no kids while married............it isn't worth worrying about.


It would be nice for him to know for sure though, so I'm guessing that he'll try to find the lawyer. But since they both paid CPP and both had DB pensions, hopefully he won't owe a lot anyway.


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## Rebecca (Aug 10, 2014)

Eclectic12 said:


> The guy in Ontario that I talked to was thankful his ex-wife was being reasonable. She was allowing him to gradually pay her for her share of his DB pension over time instead of demanding one lump sum. He said if she wanted a lump sum - it would have bankrupted him.
> 
> 
> That said ... unless the lawyers are really shady, I expect one or both would have been familiar with the law at the time and built it into the settlement. I suspect the main risk is if the legislation was changed later and made retroactive.
> ...


Do you know how much time had passed between their separation and when the wife came back to claim her share? I am hoping for my brother's sake, that all was done and dusted back when their divorce was finalized and their lawyers both agreed that it was a wash, based on the fact that they both had CPP and DB pensions to share.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

It sounded like it was while the assets were being split ... but it was in the late '90s and I wasn't that concerned about the details.


As I say .... I'm doubting that both lawyers would miss including DB pensions in the assets.


Cheers


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Rebecca said:


> No, they each had a lawyer, but because it was so long ago, my brother doesn't remember much about it at all, and only has the divorce certificate itself, nothing about terms. ...


As Altared suggests, go back to the lawyer(s) for copies of the divorce/separation agreements then. If lawyers were involved, it should all have been covered. 

I will refrain from commenting on the wisdom of an adult male who didn't keep the paperwork from his divorce and now "can't remember". His current spouse is likely concerned to have matters clarified before they get any unpleasant surprises in retirement.

If both parties were working and making the maximum CPP contributions, they may have agreed to waive splitting it.


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## dadaswell (Jan 6, 2016)

OhGreatGuru said:


> As Altared suggests, go back to the lawyer(s) for copies of the divorce/separation agreements then. If lawyers were involved, it should all have been covered.
> 
> I will refrain from commenting on the wisdom of an adult male who didn't keep the paperwork from his divorce and now "can't remember". His current spouse is likely concerned to have matters clarified before they get any unpleasant surprises in retirement.
> 
> If both parties were working and making the maximum CPP contributions, they may have agreed to waive splitting it.


If CPP credit was split in a divorce, when/how do I find out exactly how much my CPP will be? I am due to retire this year.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> ... I will refrain from commenting on the wisdom of an adult male who didn't keep the paperwork from his divorce and now "can't remember".


LOL ... though as one who has lost copies of info due to basement flooding or an electronic copy going bad, I'm all for backup plans.




OhGreatGuru said:


> ... His current spouse is likely concerned to have matters clarified before they get any unpleasant surprises in retirement.


While this is a possibility ... AFAICT, this is not indicated.
The wording says the brother (i.e. the husband) who seems to have discovered well after the divorce that the pension could be affected.


Cheers


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

Rebecca, you must allow for the possibility that he does not want to discuss a personal issue with you in detail.
.
"I don't remember", said three times, may be manspeak for "none of your business".


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

I believe under current rules the rights to CPP can't be traded in settlement.


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## Dogger1953 (Dec 14, 2012)

Daniel A. said:


> I believe under current rules the rights to CPP can't be traded in settlement.


You're partially correct. An agreement not to divide CPP credits will only be accepted by Service Canada if you live in a province that allows such a waiver. Presently, that includes only British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Quebec. On the other hand, there's nothing stopping people who live in other provinces agreeing that neither of them will apply for a CPP credit split. If one of them subsequently breaks that agreement and applies for a credit split, Service Canada will ignore the agreement and do the CPP split but the other spouse may then have some legal claim against the party that broke the agreement.


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## Rebecca (Aug 10, 2014)

wendi1 said:


> Rebecca, you must allow for the possibility that he does not want to discuss a personal issue with you in detail.
> .
> "I don't remember", said three times, may be manspeak for "none of your business".


LOL! He actually called me about this a few weeks ago when it first occurred to him. His wife isn't at all interested in retirement planning, but he knows that I am. And with regard to a man of his age not keeping track of paperwork, I agree that he was quite remiss on that front. 

I'm sure that he'll tell his current wife though, but wants to have more information before he does.


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