# Norbert's Gambit: Not Waiting After Journaling Request?



## kreyszig (Jan 16, 2013)

Hi,

So I am trying gambitting for the first time (with Questrade). I bought DLR , I chatted with someone to have them journaled to DLR.U . Here is the reply I got:



> > I will submit a request for this, I will follow up with you via email as soon as this is done.
> 
> Could you tell me approximately how long it should take before you send me an email?
> 
> > You can expect this within 2-3 business days.


I had read here that I should be able to sell DLR.U within the same day I journal the shares: http://vixmoney.com/norberts-gambit-questrade

I am not sure to understand how this can be done if the journaling operation has not been performed? What are the implications of such an operation? Is it short selling? Thanks!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

krey what we in this forum don't know is exactly how questrade does their journalling.

we know intimately about td waterhouse & bmo investorline & by extrapolation roybank. I suspect scotia itrade runs like tdw. I'm pretty sure cibc & hkb don't offer online gambitting.

but questrade is a murky unlit gambitting swamp with no boardwalk. All we know is that it is possible to arb currencies at questrade. People have done it. They have managed to get their requests to questrade to journal a carrier stock (it doesn't have to be the DLRs) by phone, email, semaphore, carrier pigeon, mobile, morse code and/or the royal mail.

we don't know whether the instant journals are being done by some good-natured representative or other who just happens to take a phone call from an investor who happens to call at the right moment.

we don't know whether the slow procedure - like the one they indicated to you - is the standard procedure. Personally, i'd say that it is. It's also obvious that a representative can override the standard procedure & speed things up.

i am left wondering why some cmf member who is a questrade client with clout doesn't phone a senior manager over there & get all these details thrashed out. Other members have done this w other brokers & posted the results. The information thus gained has always been very helpful to many.


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## kreyszig (Jan 16, 2013)

Thanks. Well I guess that since I was exposed to the conversion rate when I actually bought DLR, it is not a big deal to wait 2-3 days for the journaling to take place (it would be different if I was trying to convert USD back to CAD though). However, from what that person says on that webpage:



> But I didn’t wait for the trade to settle, I did the buy, journal and the sell all on the same day.


It seems I might have the possiblity of selling DLR.U right away. I just don't know if this means that person did a short sell or not. When he says "I didn’t wait for the trade to settle", I am not sure what trading operation he is referring to. I think he means "converting" DLR to DLR.U? How does that differ from the journaling operation? Is journaling the request for the trade between DLR and DLR.U? So since I already made the request, can I consider that the journaling is done in my case, but I that I am still waiting for the trade to settle? I am a bit confused about the process/terminology... Thanks!


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## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

I requested a journal at Questrade on SLW from the TSX to NYSE via email. The 2-3 day timeframe is accurate. Although now it shows my ACB as the USD price when I did the journal which was much higher. Of course I have my own records, but still, a bit weird.


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## kreyszig (Jan 16, 2013)

Argonaut said:


> I requested a journal at Questrade on SLW from the TSX to NYSE via email. The 2-3 day timeframe is accurate. Although now it shows my ACB as the USD price when I did the journal which was much higher. Of course I have my own records, but still, a bit weird.


Thanks. SLW has a lot of volume compared to DLR... However, now that ETF pruchases are free with Questrade, I guess that you can save quite a bit when using DLR for gambiting, right?


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

OP, you fixed your exchange rate the moment you bought DLR. You are no longer exposed.


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## kreyszig (Jan 16, 2013)

GoldStone said:


> OP, you fixed your exchange rate the moment you bought DLR. You are no longer exposed.


Thanks. Yes I knew (see my second post)... It works better when converting CAD to USD though. For the other way, I would still have the control on the time to sell DLR, but I might have to hang on DLR for a while until the exchange rate becomes advantageous depending on what happens while I wait for journaling...


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## el oro (Jun 16, 2009)

OP, to answer your questions:

Journaling was when they swapped your DLR for the DLR.U. If you requested the journaling, you should just request them to sell the DLR.U right away, then you'll just be waiting for the trade to settle (3 days).


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## kreyszig (Jan 16, 2013)

$1600 Gold by 2011 said:


> OP, to answer your questions:
> 
> Journaling was when they swapped your DLR for the DLR.U. If you requested the journaling, you should just request them to sell the DLR.U right away, then you'll just be waiting for the trade to settle (3 days).


Thanks, but I tried that to sell DLR.U after I gave them a call, and their platform won't allows it because it considers the operation to be a short sell at this point...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

hmmmn perhaps it's a difficult point to convey ...

it appears that questrade is built on a mainframe that doesn't easily permit gambitting (only bmo & roybank do.)

in general, clients cannot instantly gambit on broker platforms built on such a mainframe. Usually it's the popular ISM system. Instead, clients have to phone their brokers to request an instant gambit or else they have to wait 3 days for the first purchase to settle, then request a journal.

note that phoning the broker for an instant gambit does not trigger the journal, which has to wait out the 3-day settlement period. What phoning broker for instant gambit does is allow a knowledgeable, willing representative to override the blockage on his system & execute a "naked short" on the opposite currency account, which does not yet hold the shares. The rep does this because he sees that the client has just bought the interlisted carrier stock in the original currency.

the rep does not short the stock in any account. Brokers do not want gambit stock to be shorted. They do not want short gambit positions to go on their overnight house short reports that they have to make to the exchanges. They do want to keep shortable stock for their true shorting clients. They do not want gambitters using up available pools of shortable stock.

the problem is that brokers on ISM system cannot support too many clients asking for instant gambits at low online commish, because these involve extra manual labour.

TDW solved this problem 2 years ago by electing to charge clients who phone to request an instant gambit journal a full agent-handled commish.

horizons beta helped to solve this problem 2 years ago by offering their pair of DLR products, which were designed to freeze the US exchange rate at the time an investor buys DLR on toronto (note: this currency freeze benefit does not work in reverse.)

from what i see in all the questrade remarks, i believe that questrade's official story is that clients must wait 3 days for the 1st or purchase leg of a currency gambit to settle. However some licensed questrade representatives are knowledgeable enough & good-natured enough that they will execute the instant sell side of an instant gambit if a client gets lucky enough to reach one of these reps by phone.

other clients who are not so lucky get told the 3-day story.

i further believe that, if questrade receives an ever-growing number of requests for live instant gambits, they will choose to standardize their protocol into one uniform approach, just as td waterhouse did 2 years ago.

one should keep in mind that virtual brokers solved this problem for themselves by refusing to do gambits, period.

in the meantime, it looks like it's every man, woman & pie crumb for itself at questrade ...


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Even going from USD to CAD with DLR is pretty low risk. 3 day currency fluctuations are usually low and mean reverting.


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## kreyszig (Jan 16, 2013)

Thanks humple_pie, your post was very enlightening! Maybe I will try to nicely ask for a naked short the next time...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

keep in mind that u can be as nice as pie but if the rep doesn't know how to do it or doesn't feel like doing it, then it'll be the 3-day dogtrot.

hint: do *not* send an online buy order before you contact the rep. You want to prepare the order, then find a rep who will agree to instantly sell, then release the buy order


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## kreyszig (Jan 16, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> keep in mind that u can be as nice as pie but if the rep doesn't know how to do it or doesn't feel like doing it, then it'll be the 3-day dogtrot.
> 
> hint: do *not* send an online buy order before you contact the rep. You want to prepare the order, then find a rep who will agree to instantly sell, then release the buy order


Thanks. What does it change to wait when using DLR though, since the conversion is done when buying DLR as opposed to when journaling to the US market?


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

I think it means 3 days out of the market. 
So you are converting currency to buy stock. IN three days, stocks go up 3%, while you waited for the trade to settle.

For a regular small purchase, this may not be a big deal. But for someone converting their entire account, or doing a fair amount of buying, this may be a lot.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

some will not want to wait out the 3 day delay (5 day delay at other brokers,) as jungle points out.

plus there is also the horizons betapro spread built into the DLRs. Last friday it appeared to be at least 30 basis points. If one were to exchange $20,000, one would pay horizons $60 for the privilege of using the DLRs plus 2 online commish at the broker plus waiting the 3-5 days.

for larger amounts, the horizons spread takes a bigger bite. At 50k, it becomes $150, for example, not including trading commissions.

there are accounts where the gambitter can instantly execute both his buy & his sell online, for a pair of low online commish. These accounts include all at bmo, all at roybank, plus tdw rrsp, rrif & tfsa.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Hey Humble does TDW make you wait 3 days to settle the trade for DLR? Can you buy and sell same day? 
I did not think of the spread risk for DLR... I will be converting $50K very soon and was going to use Questrade rsp.. but maybe TDW is better for the gambit? 
The funds are already in TD rsp.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Why do you need DLR?
I always perform Gambits with TD-T/TD-N , very liquid stock, and you don't have to wait , after you buy TD-T and sell TD-N , US$ virtually already in your US MM and you can the same day buy US stock with this MM money


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

After reading this thread : http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...ency-conversion-vs-quot-the-Gambit-quot/page2 

Sounds like I would be best just to keep the money in TDW and do the EASY gambit.. 

Would it be better to do with interlisted bank stock vs dlr? I _can not_ sell DLR.U on NYSE without getting rep to journal stock? But bank stock I can do online instant sell on NYSE without journal?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

jungle i do wish to be 100% clear because yours will be a large trade ... are all of these funds presently in tdw rrsp ? they are going to remain in rrsp ?

if so, the "instant" aspect of the gambit is a given. Instant gambits will work to a perfect T in rrsp at the good old td (note: the td rrsp trading platform is built differently from the cash/margin trading platform; unlike tdw cash or margin accounts, the rrsp/rrif/tfsa platform is able to handle a cascade of instant online gambit trades; pretty amazing.)

gibor is right. TD bank itself is a good interlisted carrier stock. Be sure to pick a day when earnings or dividends are *not* in the picture, as these can jiggle the price. Settle on a quiet lazy day with no bank news.

in tdw rrsp, you can buy fine on toronto. No problem. But a couple hints when you go to sell TD on new york a minute later.

- are u enrolled for automatic US washing ? if not, enroll now. You can still gambit before the auto-wash takes effect, but you will have to phone tdw before the day ends to get the laundry done.

- as you prepare your TD sell order in USD in rrsp, the tdw trade platform will show you a currency warning. Be sure you are selling from the US quote. Accept the warning (check it off) because the auto-washing is going to override it.

- scribble all USD figs down as you work. Quote, sell price you specify, commish, total proceeds. This is because the tdw system is going to flash each of these numbers only once; after that it will show you the converted canadian equivalent.

- as soon as you have snagged your USD proceeds from selling TD bank on new york, you can move on, in rrsp account, to buy US securities immediately. Again, scribble down all figs.

- after you've sold TD bank on new york & bought one or more US securities, there will probably be an amount of USD cash left over. This is the amount that will be autowashed into US MMF at the end of the day. On the other hand if u are not yet enrolled in autowash, you can do the calculations & launder these dollars into US MMF by yourself ... or ask a waterhouse rep to help you do it.

- the rrsp account will look funny for a day or 2 past settlement dates. Not to worry. This is just the washing machine spinning. In the end, everything will be squeaky clean.


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## blin10 (Jun 27, 2011)

I agree, i do it with RY-t, RY-n... ton of volume, sell/buy instant, use money right away... I don't get why people bother with DLR which has such a low volume



gibor said:


> Why do you need DLR?
> I always perform Gambits with TD-T/TD-N , very liquid stock, and you don't have to wait , after you buy TD-T and sell TD-N , US$ virtually already in your US MM and you can the same day buy US stock with this MM money


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

RY is also a good choice.

one should never odd-lot when gambitting. It's necessary to push those trades through as fast as possible. So RY with its $64 price can be more suitable for the total amount of money an investor has in mind than, say, TD with its 83-84 price.

whatever the carrier is, it should be a stock that is highly liquid in both markets & is also having a sleepy day.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> - the rrsp account will look funny for a day or 2 past settlement dates. Not to worry. This is just the washing machine spinning. In the end, everything will be squeaky clean.


That's right  First time I kinda got surprised, but after all settlements , I recalculated $$ and everything was correct. The point here that your FX rate will be locked for both buy and sell trades, but at the beginning it may show different rates. 
One more thing, as an example if after your TD buy/sell $10K should arrive into your US MM, but on the same day (let's say before settlement) you buy stock on US side for 8K, you will see in your US MM just 2K.
If this diference less than threshold like ($10K should arrive into your US MM, but on the same day you buy stock on US side for 9,950 (I don't remember , but something like $100), you won't see anything in you US MM , remainder will be moved to your CAD MM
If $10K should arrive into your US MM, but on the same day you buy stock on US side for $12K, first of all $10K will be taken from your "virtual" US MM and remaining 2K - from CAD Cash (obviously you should have this cash)


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> one should never odd-lot when gambitting. It's necessary to push those trades through as fast as possible. .


HP, actually today I tried uneven lot, didn't have any problems, everything got processed the same second with same price
TD-T 100 1:33:00 PM EST 19-Feb-2013 
14 1:33:00 PM EST 19-Feb-2013 

TD-N 114 1:34:00 PM EST


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

gibor said:


> That's right  First time I kinda got surprised, but after all settlements , I recalculated $$ and everything was correct. The point here that your FX rate will be locked for both buy and sell trades, but at the beginning it may show different rates.
> One more thing, as an example if after your TD buy/sell $10K should arrive into your US MM, but on the same day (let's say before settlement) you buy stock on US side for 8K, you will see in your US MM just 2K.
> If this diference less than threshold like ($10K should arrive into your US MM, but on the same day you buy stock on US side for 9,950 (I don't remember , but something like $100), you won't see anything in you US MM , remainder will be moved to your CAD MM
> If $10K should arrive into your US MM, but on the same day you buy stock on US side for $12K, first of all $10K will be taken from your "virtual" US MM and remaining 2K - from CAD Cash (obviously you should have this cash)



hmmmn

might we be saying here that the minimum to purchase US MMF in tdw rrsp is USD $100. So the gambit calculation should provide for enough USD to purchase everything in USD that investor wishes to purchase, plus it should leave at least $100 over for washing into USD MMF ...

if the remnant is less than USD $100, the big green has no choice but to convert the remnant back into CAD. Seems fair enough.


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## kreyszig (Jan 16, 2013)

blin10 said:


> I agree, i do it with RY-t, RY-n... ton of volume, sell/buy instant, use money right away... I don't get why people bother with DLR which has such a low volume


Are you saying that I won't have to wait for the trade to settle with Questrade if I go with RY or TD instead of DLR? The disadvantage I guess is that I will have to pay a trading comission twice instead than once since these are not ETFs...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

no krey he's saying that at his brokerage he can do the 2 gambit trades instantly online, one after the other. Probably bmo or roybank or tdw rrsp.

no matter what u use as the carrier stock, it's likely that at questrade you'll have to wait for settlement. Unless u happen to lock into that mythical extra-nice representative who knows what to do & is willing to do it 4 u ...


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## kreyszig (Jan 16, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> no krey he's saying that at his brokerage he can do the 2 gambit trades instantly online, one after the other. Probably bmo or roybank or tdw rrsp.
> 
> no matter what u use as the carrier stock, it's likely that at questrade you'll have to wait for settlement. Unless u happen to lock into that mythical extra-nice representative who knows what to do & is willing to do it 4 u ...


Thanks. This is what I thought. So I guess I will learn to wait three days. I am not doing active trading anyway, so going the DLR/DLR.U route with Questrade is the cheapest method for me because of the free ETF purchase


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanks for the great explanation guys.. and love humbles words, washing machine spinning and the big green, lol
I am just going to stick with TDW RSP since the money is already in there and Questrade seems to be not so easy with this process.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> if the remnant is less than USD $100, the big green has no choice but to convert the remnant back into CAD. Seems fair enough.


HP, as I said, I don't remember exact amount.... several months ago I bought and sold TD, and bought MCD the same day and it were suppose to be left some amount less than $100. As I did it than for the 1st time (the same day wash and buy) , I called rep and that what he told me. Interesting that after this I talked to another rep who didn't know this rule....and when i pointed on the 1st rep saying, 2nd rep double-checked and confirmed.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Jungle said:


> Thanks for the great explanation guys.. and love humbles words, washing machine spinning and the big green, lol
> I am just going to stick with TDW RSP since the money is already in there and Questrade seems to be not so easy with this process.


Jungle, truly, this is the best advantage of TDW over other dis. brokerages  unfortunately, it has some disadvantages comparing to my another brokarage Investor Edge.
In order to to "wash" I have to call then several times.....


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

gibor next time you end up with a remnant or a tail of US cash in tdw rrsp that is worth less than $100 you could try sweet-talking em into giving you the US MMF anyhow ...


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## kreyszig (Jan 16, 2013)

So I talked with someone at Questrade today. They told me that the reason why it is not possible to sell DLR.U from their platform is the fact that both DLR and DLR.U are on the TSE. They told me that calling them would not be necessary if I had used shares exchanged on two different markets to perform the Gambit.

Also they told me that they will sell DLR.U for me and that they have to sell it during the day (so no GTC combined with journaling). Does it make sense?

Thanks


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

Just did my first NG through RBCDI. Trial run of $25k bought DLR made the call to Royal Circle and within 60 seconds it was journalled to DLR.U and sold. Wow! Fantastic!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Ihatetaxes said:


> Just did my first NG through RBCDI. Trial run of $25k bought DLR made the call to Royal Circle and within 60 seconds it was journalled to DLR.U and sold. Wow! Fantastic!



hey taxes - next level: at roybank & bmo investorline, clients can gambit instantly online without phoning for journal.

just buy/sell online. Bing bang. Split second interval. System will be able to figure out exactly what goes where.

an exception might be the DLRs because they both trade on toronto stk exchange, unlike true interlisted gambit stocks that trade toronto plus an american exchange, usually new york. I'm not a roybank client so do not know a tiny detail like whether their platform does or does not require a manual journal of DLR to DLR.U.

in the next level, you could gambit a stock like roybank itself or td bank, thus avoiding the Horizons spread which is built into the pair of DLR etfs. It's not a big spread, something like 20 basis points i believe.


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

Thanks humble. Trying again today and will look at using RY.


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

Just did this again this afternoon with $100k and it worked seemlessly. First did $40k and called to make sure I knew how to do it online properly. The first girl I spoke to had no idea what I was trying to do and I told her I had no issues with her colleague the last time. She figured out who that was and got him on the line for me. Great guy based in Quebec who told me if everyone knew about this trick the bank would be losing a huge amount of exhange profit. So to sell it myself I had to pick my US RSP account (even though I had bought it in the Canadian account) but then kept the market CND and changed the symbol to DLR.U. Sold the $40k and then the $60k within a minute at $9.98.

Now ready to buy some more VTI and feeling better about the exhange rate I got!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

hey taxes that sounds great

but why are you using the DLRs? esp on 100k? it looks like the DLR spread is more than 20 basis points but even 20 basis pts, with a large amount like 100k, are like $200 literally thrown to the wind ...

keep in mind that on the reverse trip - when you are gambitting USD back into CAD - the DLRs will not work well because only DLR.U is pegged. This means that a gambit from USD to CAD via the DLRs will expose the trader to currency fluctuation. A gambit on the homeward journey might as well save the basis points & head straight for interlisted common stock instead.

also - for the record - at bmo any gambit will work instantly & perfectly in non-registered accounts as well as in reg'd. Apparently from what i've read roybank is the same. What's not to like.

i don't agree w your quebec friend, though. I don't think the gambit trade will make a dent in the big banks' huge FX profits, including what they pull in from their brokerage arms.

i do believe that gambits are self-limiting. They are tricky enough that only a small number of investors will take the trouble to get the hang of em plus scrape up the courage to do em, imho. The big banks have nothing to worry about here.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

When I garner up the courage to do a gambit I think I'm going to take some screen shots and post them to take the mystery out of it all.

It sounds easy at least.


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

Humble thanks for the feedback. I thought about trying it with a big bank stock but of course there is no guarantee that I would have done any better with a fluctuating stock price and if I put in a sell order and didn't get it could have sat on the stock and perhaps watched it dropping.

I'm happy with the end result which is all that matters (to me).

FYI it was 16 basis points if I am doing the math right (10.14/9.98)


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Ihatetaxes said:


> I thought about trying it with a big bank stock but of course there is no guarantee that I would have done any better ... I'm happy with the end result which is all that matters (to me)



taxes u are so right! i've never done an amount as large as 100k, if i did i'd probably sit down & think more conservatively about things including DLRs.

i'm very used to trading pairs in disparate markets, ie each leg has to be worked by hand. Usually these are options but some stock positions as well. Amounts of $$ involved are much smaller than 100k, though.

it's true there can be a moment after one has bought in one market when one's carrier stock might go in the wrong direction, ie it might start to drop just as one is needing to sell. Usually i peer at 1-minute charts with future-oriented settings like B bands.

there's no other way to say this & i know it might sound flippant. But it's fairly rare for me, in a pair trade, to have the unsold position still in my hands when a market starts falling or otherwise going against me. But those are the funnest moments! they are what adds spice to life, salt to an egg, colour to B&W.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

TD Waterhouse is still the easiest gambit right? 
I am doing one tomorrow in RSP. 
Kinda nervous with this stuff, but I know it's been done before.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Jungle said:


> TD Waterhouse is still the easiest gambit right?
> I am doing one tomorrow in RSP.
> Kinda nervous with this stuff, but I know it's been done before.


If you're going to do that could you do me a solid and take screen shots of each step and post it? (but omit acc details of course). That would be really helpful.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

none said:


> If you're going to do that could you do me a solid and take screen shots of each step and post it? (but omit acc details of course). That would be really helpful.


Call customer support to enable auto-wash.
Buy 100 shares of TD on Canadian exchange.
Wait for the fill.
Sell 100 shares of TD on US exchange.

Why do you need the screenshots? It's a regular buy and a regular sell. Nothing fancy.

*** TD is just an example. You can use any interlisted stock.


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

Horizon have a nice little guide:
http://www.horizonsetfs.com/Pdf/Education/Converting Currencies Using ETFs.pdf


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

Key is to get the autowash enabled. Only allowed in registered accounts I believe. If you are in taxable, you will have to call for journaling. I use TDW and my understanding is that there are easier places to gambit but you have to deal with who you use. I find the most annoying thing about TD is their handling of the balances after you have done the gambit. It takes 4 or 5 days before things look normal and their handling of the currency conversions make it look even stranger. As well, you have to check some boxes regarding 'inadequate balances' and 'having to sell prior to settling' but you don't really have to do anything as Goldstone suggests above. You can even buy your USD target stock/ETF immediately after the sell side is filled but again, it looks more complicated than it needs to be (seems to me anyway!). It has always worked out in the end.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

why so irritable, uptoolate? would you rather that tdw reconfigure their registered account trading platform so that currency gambits can *never* be carried out?

it's already been explained hundreds of times why the tdw software works the day it does. Because. it's. built. on. the. legacy. ISM. mainframe. leased. from. IBM. which. was. never. designed. for. canadian. rrsps. although. it. is. the. best. broker. architecture. that. is. available.

all other brokers using ISM - by far the majority of brokers - face the same obstacles. This why they cannot easily build a USD rrsp on ISM. The exceptions (bmo, roybank) are using another mainframe system, ADP, which in my experience may not be as reliable as the popular IBM workhorse.

the very slight effort which a tdw client has to make to gambit his reg'd account currency from CAD to USD or back again is related to the ISM interface. Most people don't complain, though. Most people are grateful that the opportunity even exists.

furthermore, registering for autowash or not does not matter a tinker's tit. Gambitters who are not yet registered simply have to wash their own MMF trades by hand, that's all. These can be slightly tricky to figure out on the US side, since it's necessary to pin down the USD amount that is to go into US MMF exactly.

long before tdw introduced their "autowash" feature in reg'd accounts, though, i & many others used to hand-launder any buying or selling of MMFs that was necessary. Any person can still "wash" all their own laundry pursuant to any gambit trade, if they wish.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Did a first time gambit today in rspX2. Auto wash is on both set up.. "view activity" is messed up ..rep on the phone said they will adjust the "net amount" after trades settle and excess $USD washes. 

For example: 

Bought 414 [email protected] (TSE) = 25,278 - 9.99 trade = 25,268
Sold 414 [email protected] (NYSE) = 24,984 - 9.99 trade = 24,974
______
View activity says net amount of sale is $24,850.32 ? $123.68 is missing. 

I bought US stocks right away and here is another wonky example
52 [email protected] - 9.99 commission= $4284.12 

View activity says net amount is $4416.05? Showing it cost 131.93 more? 

For two rsps, I should be left with $2519.59 in $USD cash.. the system would not allow me to buy more stock with this. I guess it's using the calculations above and thinks no more cash is left?


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Yup, it takes a few days for everything to come clean in the wash.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

jungle hard though this may be to believe, everything is just fine!

i know i know it looks like the washing machine has broken down & is terminally stuck on spin cycle. But here's the thing: the system is showing you all activities in canadian dollars, exchanged at today's rate, which is quite punitive for CAD.

the tdw agent to whom you spoke was right. Everything will, eventually, come out clean in the autowash. In the end, your excess USD will end up in exactly the right number of US MMF units.

to take your example of the USD 24,974 proceeds from selling 414 sh RY on new york: the tdw system has applied today's sell rate of roughly .995 which produces roughly 24,850 in CAD. That is what you are seeing, but it's sort of an illusion. The autowash is going to undo this. What you will have, in a few days time, are the US equities you were able to purchase today, plus the excess USD from 24,974 nicely socked away in the correct number of USD MMF units.

a waterhouse rep, upon hearing of your concerns, suggests that you could buy the remaining US security on your shopping list with your remaining USD, if you would like, by phoning a representative. Explain how the system is blocking you from purchasing your full shopping list online until after the laundry has been fully washed, dried & folded. He said the agent can place the order for you & should give you the web commish on this final agent-handled purchase.

all in all, i am thinking your situation looks good. Yes it is tricky, i agree, to read the waterhouse screens & statements & keep on realizing that the US dollar reality in the rrsp is different from the canadian figures that are shown. But you can do this!


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

no humble i think it is the best thing since sliced bread - better in fact. irritation is in the eye of the beholder and as a someone who doesn't use margin and has always been taught to be wary of debt - seeing significant negative balances in accounts is.... well it's irritating. i quite understand legacy systems - working day to day with the limitations imposed by several old systems - it doesn't mean i have to like it. i know that the banks are very cash strapped and that's why i don't call them and complain about it.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

recently forum member goldstone voiced a concern that the new tdw USD rrsp - if & when it debuts - may not allow the kind of instant online gambit trading that investors presently enjoy in the big green's current online rrsp version.

instead, its gambit possibilities will resemble those in non-registered accounts. Investors will have to phone a licensed representative for the sell side & pay an agent-handled commission.

no one really has any idea what a green USD rrsp account would look like, or how it would function. Certainly, FX fees on USD dividends would be a thing of the past & this would be a welcome development. But the trade-off might be the end of fast, easy, inexpensive online currency gambitting.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanks for the reassurance everyone, especially humble. This was a first time..I knew the usd was hiding behind the screen, but I was afraid I screwed something up and ate their high conversion fees. Also kinda scary they show balances converted in CAD..but just for account display. 

BTW the rep said they are looking at the fall now for usd in rsp..however it may come sooner.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

jungle not only did you not screw anything up but you did do something very positive that i'd love to mention to any onlookers who might be preparing for their first big green spring fling.

what jungle did was scribble down & keep a perfect record of every single US dollar figure that he saw as the gambit windows sped by.

it's important to do this because the appearance of these USD figures is so brief. They will appear once & once only. Instantly, the system will grab them & begin the process of reporting them as canadian dollar figs.

the gambitter needs this detailed USD record because it's the only way he can check later, when the clean laundry is delivered, that all of his sundry items & miscellaneous linens were, in fact, returned to him.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> recently forum member goldstone voiced a concern that the new tdw USD rrsp - if & when it debuts - may not allow the kind of instant online gambit trading that investors presently enjoy in the big green's current online rrsp version.
> 
> instead, its gambit possibilities will resemble those in non-registered accounts. Investors will have to phone a licensed representative for the sell side & pay an agent-handled commission.
> 
> no one really has any idea what a green USD rrsp account would look like, or how it would function. Certainly, FX fees on USD dividends would be a thing of the past & this would be a welcome development. But the trade-off might be the end of fast, easy, inexpensive online currency gambitting.


Right you are forum member humble_pie. each: I _am_ concerned they might go that route.

What's my level of concern, on a scale 1 to 10? About 2. I can move the account to BMOIL if the new rrsp is not to my liking. Bonus offer: free Level II quotes for 5-star members.

You say BMOIL platform isn't as stable as TDW? That's fine, I don't trade rrsp often enough.

But that's just idle speculation. Let's wait and see what the new USD rrsp looks like. It should be here any day... or month... or quarter... :rolleyes2:


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i don't mind when a corporation towards which i am favourably disposed makes an occasional mistake in its strategic planning, as long as it's not a fatal mistake.

i think that tdw did make a mistake in strategic planning at the highest level when it decided a number of years ago to invest its energies in global trading, failing to understand at that time how the vast majority of its clients were going to want USD rrsps.

looking on from afar, i believe that tdw thought it would acquire a new mainframe that would support USD rrsps when it purchased Think or Swim a number of years ago. Then i believe that the big green spent a couple of years tinkering with the architecture before eventually concluding that TOS was never going to adapt to all the requirements of canadian registered plans.

oh, dear. Next - looking on from afar - i believe that tdw flirted with the idea of importing Trade Architect as its mainframe from its US cousin td ameritrade. This time, the experimentation romance seems to have been briefer, say less than a year. But, again, the relationship failed when it came down to the crucial rrsp hurdles.

by this time, roughly 5 years had passed & the clamour from clients demanding USD rrsp was getting louder by the day. In fact it had reached uproar levels.

next, tdw decided it would be able, after all, to develop a USD rrsp modification from its existing legacy mainframe, the one they had leased from the beginning from IBM. This is the chapter in the story that they are working on right now. There are fleeting hints - but only hints & only fleeting - that they might be successful. Still, the anticipated launch date keep on getting pushed out later & later.

i for one have never been able to understand why tdw serves as the scapegoat for the entire field of canadian brokers who have to deal with the same issue, namely, they are not able to develop USD rrsps because they, too, are leasing the same mainframe system from IBM. One rarely hears about cibc, itrade, hsbc or natbank investor clients who dump bitterly on their discount brokers for lack of a USD rrsp. But one sure does hear about it for the big green!

i think goldstone's idea of just moving one's rrsp to bmo or roybank is a fine idea. I will probably do this myself if the day ever comes that i cannot tolerate tdw's FX fees on my poor old US dividends for one more minute.

i certainly do empathize with the representatives at all the non-USD-rrsp brokers who have had to listen to so many clients' complaints & rants on this issue for so many years now. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that they've all had training sessions in how to let the rants slide politely off their backs like water from a duck.

much better, i think, is goldstone's idea. When you can't stand it any longer, just pack up the rrsp & walk it quietly over to bmo or roybank or questrade. You feet will send the message.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

For a bank of that size and caliber, it's rather disappointing they can't even have live display of cash balance, buying power, or show/hold USD in registered accounts. This is why the gambit is so scary for first timers. You can't even see the USD, until it washes 3 days later. 

BTW a us money market order was put in both RSP accounts, but still not settled. My cash balance is very close to my calculations, maybe off by $5-10 or so. But I am still not used to the way TDW displays US holdings and US cash.. they are showing it converted to CAD which I am not factoring. 

Also the cost prices in my account activity were adjusted to USD amount..
for example, JNJ above is no longer [email protected] - 9.99 commission= $4416.05 (WRONG)
JNJ is now [email protected] commission = $4284.12 (correct) 


But my wife's is still showing the wrong stock totals, I guess in CAD dollars? Cash balance looks good though. 

Also looks like the took all the commissions out of the US cash after the gambit.. not the CAD cash.. not sure how to figure that out. Would prefer they do not touch the US cash... lol


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Jungle said:


> BTW a us money market order was put in both RSP accounts, but still not settled.


MMFs transactions will settle on the same day as the stock transactions.



Jungle said:


> Also looks like the took all the commissions out of the US cash after the gambit.. not the CAD cash.. not sure how to figure that out. Would prefer they do not touch the US cash... lol


You pay $9.99 CAD to buy/sell Canadian stocks; $9.99 USD to buy/sell US stocks. In other words, the commission currency matches the currency of transaction.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

GoldStone said:


> You pay $9.99 CAD to buy/sell Canadian stocks; $9.99 USD to buy/sell US stocks. In other words, the commission currency matches the currency of transaction.


True, but I kind of agree with Jungle's observation too.
If your commission tier with the broker is $9.99 a trade, it is CAD, not USD.
They could still take it out of the US$ cash, but it should be equal to $9.99 CAD, not USD.
So, it could be $9.97 or $10.01, whatever that works out to be.

If, somehow, the USD appreciates significantly in the next few months/year, you could be paying say $12 CAD a trade.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> If your commission tier with the broker is $9.99 a trade, it is CAD, not USD.
> They could still take it out of the US$ cash, but it should be equal to $9.99 CAD, not USD.
> So, it could be $9.97 or $10.01, whatever that works out to be.



i for one would not agree with this commission criticism. The issue of US commissions on US stock & US option trades is a separate issue from currency gambitting & imho it should have a thread of its own, no?


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

I always thought that 9.99 is either CAD or USD, depending on the exchange. I can't find it in their fine print.

Of the 100,000 things that concern me as an investor, the difference between 9.99CAD and 9.99USD just isn't one of them.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

GoldStone said:


> Of the 100,000 things that concern me as an investor, the difference between 9.99CAD and 9.99USD just isn't one of them.



that's it. Folks who want to complain about commish could move to questrade or IB or haha virtual brokers (which btw sure chose the right name for itself.)

anyhow this is not a thread about commish complaints


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## valueindexer (Jun 17, 2011)

So I just did this for the first time at both TD and Questrade this month... what's this about being able to do it at TD without calling in (I called for both)? Is it like RBCDI where you can just do it all yourself, or do you stil have to send an email to get the shares journaled?

I also noticed that both systems do a horrible job of displaying balances if you have had any account activity in the last week. One is currently displaying a total balance that is twice what it really holds (if only). Even for an account where I only traded in CDN$ it doesn't display accurate information at first. At this point I just laugh and refer to my own spreadsheet. Apparently they're designed to provide market data and execute orders, not tell you what just happened. Guess it keeps the phone reps from getting bored


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

For TD RSP, you don't have to call in to journal the shares. You can just buy on TSE and sell it right away on NYSE.
Non-reg requires a phone call. 

This is why I liked TDWH for the initial lump sum conversion. Cause waiting three days for Questrade to journal while sitting in cash is too risky for my liking.


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## eulogy (Oct 29, 2011)

Well based on the instructions in this thread I'm going to give this a try for my RRSP. I already have autowash set up.

I hope I don't get confused as I don't want to be out of the market for longer than I have to. I just set up a sell of all my mutual funds now. I'll know exactly how much that will be in dollars tomorrow. I'll buy TD or whatever, sell on NYSE.

And at that point, another buy for what I'm looking to buy in US dollars.

Hopefully it all works out.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

If you are nervous about it (I was the first time) you can call in and have a broker walk you through it. If it's with TD they probably won't even charge you 45 for the trade = they'll just verbally walk you through it as you click things.

I figure they are all for this as this allows them to keep the 'CAN only' RRSP where they nail you on exchange with dividends. The bank still wins big.


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## eulogy (Oct 29, 2011)

I'm not too worried about the steps. It's all pretty straight forward. The nervous part is waiting the three business days to see it all work out. If I hit a road block, I'll call them though. Never know what kind of prompts I'll see when buying/selling.


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## eulogy (Oct 29, 2011)

Well, I went through with it. Everything is in the auto-wash, so hopefully it all works out in the end.

Sold TDB911,909,900 and added $4530 into my RRSP for a total of $19676.01 to convert.

Bought TD on TSX, 228 units, [email protected] and [email protected]

Sold TD on NYSE, 228 units at 82.57 for a total of $18815.97.

Cost 9.99 CDN and 9.99 US.

Immediately bought 390 units of VXUS.

Woo. Hopefully it's good in three business days.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

eulogy said:


> Woo. Hopefully it's good in three business days.



it'll be perfect. Next thing you know, you'll be teaching this in the forum.

(aside to all) always scribble down all USD figures - prices, commissions, etc - as they flash in front of your eyes while gambitting in tddi rrsp. They'll only flash once as USD figs. After that, the system will swallow em up & convert em to CAD.

in the end, you'll be able to see from your scribbled USD figs that all the laundry got washed & ironed properly.


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## eulogy (Oct 29, 2011)

It's exciting and nerve racking at the same time lol.

Judging by the numbers it worked out quite well. Noon exchange rate was 1.0425. My numbers worked out to 1.0462.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

In order to get US$ in TDW , I was buying TD on TSX and selling right away TD on NYSE... I usually did it in quiet afternoons during my "lunch break"  ... Now, company I'm working blocked financial websites, so I cannot do it anymore... I was thinking if at night time I will place market buy for 100 shares for next day on TD:TSX and the same time market sell for 100 shares on TD:NYSE.... How dangerous to do it? 
Please note that I hold on my account TD:TSX and don't want to touch it.... only to convert to US$ new acquired 100 shares..


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## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

Hi gibor, 
Your company sucks.  
I don't think I like what you're proposing. Do you ever get a day off of work? I would rather do it at home, during trading hours.


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## icon (Nov 25, 2013)

Do you have a smartphone? You could use the TD mobile app to do the trade. Personally I'd execute it during market hours too.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

avrex said:


> Hi gibor,
> Your company sucks.
> I don't think I like what you're proposing. Do you ever get a day off of work? I would rather do it at home, during trading hours.


i know  What can I do...we got sold to some stupid Indian company some time ago ....


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Do you have an iphone? You can buy sell stock via the TD bank app (which includes TD waterhouse accounts). I've never done it but that sounds better than the alternative.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

none said:


> Do you have an iphone? You can buy sell stock via the TD bank app (which includes TD waterhouse accounts). I've never done it but that sounds better than the alternative.


I don't have iPhone and not planning to have it.... imho - doesn't worth it


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## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

Use TalkBroker instad of WebBroker? Call in the trades on your lunch hour.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

lightcycle said:


> Use TalkBroker instad of WebBroker? Call in the trades on your lunch hour.


Interesting idea! Didn't think about this one.... Is anyone ever used it? 
On the other hand probably I can call TDW rep and placed same market trades? 
Are trades gonna be also 9.99?


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## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

gibor said:


> Interesting idea! Didn't think about this one.... Is anyone ever used it?
> On the other hand probably I can call TDW rep and placed same market trades?
> Are trades gonna be also 9.99?


Never used it before.

http://www.tdwaterhouse.ca/document/PDF/tdw-talkbroker-db-eng.pdf

Doesn't look too complicated. Let us know how it goes!


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## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

"Please say your order"
"Buy 100 shares of TD Bank"
"Please confirm you want to buy 100 shares of Google"
"NO!"
"Order confirmed. Buying 100 shares of Google at Market Order... Transaction completed."
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

don't even think of gambitting via talk order systems


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

lightcycle said:


> "Please say your order"
> "Buy 100 shares of TD Bank"
> "Please confirm you want to buy 100 shares of Google"
> "NO!"
> ...


Very likely scenario with my English accent  Tried several times to have my voice print, theit soft DOESN'T understands me 

HP, what about calling rep and doing those 2 tramsactions right away?


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## icon (Nov 25, 2013)

gibor said:


> On the other hand probably I can call TDW rep and placed same market trades?
> Are trades gonna be also 9.99?


If you have the rep place the trade(s) you'll likely be charged the full service commission. Anytime I've done an instant gambit (by calling them to request the journal) they have charged me the full service commission on the 2nd trade (the sell) even though I've placed the buy myself via Webbroker. Others have had better luck, but I think the norm is for them to charge full service commission for any trades placed by reps.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

gibor i think it would be a good idea - given your work situation plus no smartphone - to use the tddi Telemax system. This system utilizes the dial pad of a regular phone. You can place trades, get quotes & account information, even call up & edit the quote portfolios that you have already created in webbroker.

telemax is faster & more accurate than the rather silly talk/voice modality. It's easy to learn. Once you know telemax, you can check or trade your account anytime, in real time, while you are at work.

what i'm not sure of - what i tend to doubt - is whether telemax can take the Sell side order in a gambit pair in an rrsp. It's true that webbroker can do this perfectly in tddi rrsp; however some memory fragment is telling me (maybe i read it here in cmf) that telemax cannot take gambit sell side orders. It is, after all, not exactly the same interface as webbroker.

if that's the case, the cheapest gambit you could do in rrsp would be:

- set up your buy order in telemax but don't send it;
- get a licensed rep on the phone;
- explain to him what you're doing so he can set up the sell side order;
- then send your buy order for low electronic commission;
- immediately he will sell for the regular agent's phone commission.

it's possible an agent might be sympathetic to your circumstances (cannot get Telemax to execute the sell order) & he might offer you the electronic commish for the sell ... good luck ...

EDIT: drat, i just realized that the above procedure works for webbroker but through the telemax phone system it would require 2 separate phone lines, one connected through telemax, the other to the live agent.

hmmmn. There could be a delay, especially if one were to buy via telemax, then phone again to a licensed rep to do the sell side. Not sure what the best workaround for this would be ...

EDIT # 2: en tout cas, for gibor or any other td client whose workplace blocks internet connection, the Telemax system is a workable alternative. At the user end (in the workplace) it's silent, unobtrusive, will never be noticed.


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