# Are You Receiving Value For the Fees Which You Are Paying?



## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

I don't know if I will receive any responses to this topic but I would be interesting in hearing from any of you who are currently using an advisor or professional money manager to handle your portfolio.

These are not easy times to be an investor and it must be harder than ever to receive value for the high management fees that you usually pay to have 'professionals' manage your account(s).

I thought that it might be interesting to learn of your experiences in having someone else make the investment decisions for you rather than go the DIY route.

Are you generally satisfied with the results from delegating such decisions to others? Does your manager consistently outperform the various indexes over time? Do you plan to stick with your current advisor or are you considering dumping him or her and going a different route.

Most people on this forum are likely DIY investors but I would be interested in hearing the experiences of others who delegate the management of their portfolios to other so-called experts.

Any thoughts or experiences?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I think I am going to be the outlier here. My name is Plugging Along, and I pay someone else to manage my part of portfolio.

However, I am not trying to break this addiction, and plan to stay with him. 

I have someone I trust as my FP (and he is not even hourly based). I know is getting paid well by us, but I am okay and satisfied with it.

My reason for paying someone else is I sleep better at night, that's worth a lot for me. I tend to be overly risky with my money, take gambles often (some paid off, some haven't). My planner is a very conservative and balances my high risk tendancies. I have my non registered accounts as DIY, but my registered accounts with him. He does alot of my research for me, and will look into the different options and alternatives. For me, that's part of the value I see. Even in my non registered accounts, when I ask him for advice or information he will provide it.


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## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

Say an investor had whittled his choices down to two--seek out a fee-based advisor to manage his portfolio or just invest in a 'Couch Potato' portfolio such as the model portfolios at www.canadiancouchpotato.com

Generally speaking, which route would you choose.

Many people on this forum started with an advisor (myself included) but ended up dissatisfied and switched to the DIY approach but, now that I am into my retirement years, I am actually thinking of going back to the professional management route even with the added fees that would involve.

Has anyone else out there done the same and with what results? I guess that a lot of it depends on how successful you are in finding a good manager who earns the fees that you pay him by consistently beating the the underlying indexes.

This also assumes that you are an investor who does not, for whatever reasons, want to get into the individual stock-picking game.

In other words, do you believe that the 'Couch Potato' method of investing will still outperform most professional money managers over the long term even in the current economic environment.

Or, putting it another way, is buy-and-hold, as a viable investment option, dead?


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

i choose an advisor with a well known, old independent investment firm for both my sister and my elderly aunt and they have both been treated very well
their advisor is straightforward and a very decent guy to work with, his company is conservative and they have none of their own products to push
he definitely does not do any churning and as i say, has no bias or axe to grind or products to sell
i haven't tracked their fees (i get my aunt's statements but don't bother to tote things up, since he done so damn well for her) but i know they are around 1%
for many people that is the best 1% you will ever pay
just find an advisor with an _independent_ well established company and avoid any of the big banks brokerage arms

those of us who manage our own portfolios save money in many ways but pay in other ways
like, a) we bear the burden of worry and monitoring to make sure we are on the right track and this is a constant process and b) we miss opportunities based on our emotional bias and fear, we don't make moves that we should because we behave irrationally about our money, more and more i realize this is a huge problem for independent investors, keeping irrational decisions to a minimum


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## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

Investment returns are generally so meagre these days that it makes any fees more of a consideration. That said, a one percent fee seems reasonable for results that consistently beat the underlying indexes over the long run. I do agree with the premise of using a fee-only advisor. 

Does anyone know a website that lists independent, fee-only advisors?

Here is the story of one investor who decided to dump her advisor and go the DIY route.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...becomes-her-own-money-manager/article4445937/


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## Lephturn (Aug 31, 2009)

Belguy said:


> Investment returns are generally so meagre these days that it makes any fees more of a consideration. That said, a one percent fee seems reasonable for results that consistently beat the underlying indexes over the long run. I do agree with the premise of using a fee-only advisor.
> 
> Does anyone know a website that lists independent, fee-only advisors?
> 
> ...


You should only do it yourself if you have some interest, inclination, and the time to do so. That said, the availability of very low cost ETFs allows an individual investor to construct a very well balanced and diversified portfolio which requires very little time or research to manage.

1% is actually a very good rate - you may need over a million (or over 2.5 million) to get that kind of rate. Even with that, some of these companies will be investing a portion of the money in funds which also have a MER. I think that's pretty crazy, but it's what I've seen. They tend to choose these funds for emerging markets - places where they feel specialized knowledge and active management are better than passive.

Years ago I worked for Investors Group - so I've seen the fund industry in Canada from the other side. Personally I think back-loaded funds that lock investors in and include a penalty for early withdrawal should be illegal after seeing how this works from the inside, but the fund industry in Canada is extremely powerful so that is unlikely to change. Even the lack of clarity with how they report performance and fees is atrocious - but they all do it.

Nobody cares more about my money than I do. Nobody cares more about my family than I do. To me that means I need to spend time reading and researching a bit each month, learning about financial products, and managing my own funds. Even if I paid somebody to do it, I don't think they can do as good a job as I can. That may be hubris - but the investment advisor and fund industry is completely hamstrung by rules, size, and self interest to the point that I think a reasonably intelligent person (with the right emotional disposition) can do better than the pros. Note the "with the right emotional disposition" - that's really important. You need to be able to act systematically and rationally to manage money safely - not everybody can execute with that level of emotional detachment. If the money is too important to you it is extremely difficult to be successful. I have rules in place - when things happen in my life that are very emotional I must not trade. That means I exit all short term positions and I may only leave long term positions in place if they are fully automated and hedged - IE I have puts on them out at least 3 months. When life gets emotional we can't trade well.

Belguy, I think given your situation this is the challenge for you. The ups and downs of your portfolio really matter to you at this point - and that means you care too much. That's due to your situation, and it means that having someone else manage your funds might be the right choice. You should certainly spend some time researching, speaking with some advisors, and work out something that's going to be the best choice for you both financially and emotionally.


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## martinv (Apr 30, 2009)

Interesting. I did have an adviser once, years ago. Ask yourself what business is that really decent friendly person in. Sales, and they make their living from commissions. The more commissions the greater their income.
Here is a simple example; a $500,000 portfolio ( an arbitrary number) with 2.5% in total fees, which is probably low = 12,500 every year. Over 10 years which isn't very long you are looking at $125,000 and I haven't even shown compounding interest or investments of the $125,000. Personally, I would rather pay myself the $125,000. My fees are $9.99 per trade a few times per year. If they do make you more than the $125,000 then terrific, you have done well, but how many do?


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## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

I thought that this column on Couch Potato investing might be of interest to some:

http://www.moneyville.ca/article/1231372--15-years-on-passive-portfolio-still-paying-off

Any thoughts?


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## Lephturn (Aug 31, 2009)

Belguy said:


> I thought that this column on Couch Potato investing might be of interest to some:
> 
> http://www.moneyville.ca/article/1231372--15-years-on-passive-portfolio-still-paying-off
> 
> Any thoughts?


Yep - it only works if you can keep from getting too emotionally involved and pulling the plug at the wrong time. If you build a portfolio like that you need to systematically rebalance as planned and stick to that discipline no matter what. If you can do that and basically ignore it otherwise, you'll do well. If you are too emotionally involved in it and worry about it too much it may not be worth it and you may pull the plug at exactly the wrong time. If you can construct a portfolio like this and know that you can safely meet your needs in retirement it likely works well for you. If you are not sure if in the end it will meet your needs you may need to try something else.


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## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

Yes, I pretty much know the drill but two factors are making it more difficult at this time. They involve the uncertain world economy, including the mess in Europe and the potential U.S. fiscal cliff, and the resulting wobbly stock markets caused by this overall uncertainty.

My theory is that, if you are young, you don't need to concern yourself which such relatively short term factors and might even consider them as a buying opportunity. However, when you are retired and ready to convert your RSP to a RIF and begin making withdrawals from it, it does make a difference.

That said, 40 per cent of my portfolio is in fixed income and 10 per cent in a HISA and so I would not be needing to withdraw funds from my equity investments for a few more years and so maybe it has become a bigger concern than it needs to be.

Any thoughts on the 'Couch Potato' investment suggestions mentioned in the above link?


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## scomac (Aug 22, 2009)

WE have a portion of our investment portfolio under professional management. This was done initially as a form of insurance should it have proven out that I was completely ill suited to managing investments on my own. Once it became clear that this wasn't going to be an issue, I gnashed my teeth for a couple of years fretting over investment returns from our managed money. It wasn't that returns were bad, just not as good. Then I had an epiphany. What if something happened to me? My wife had no interest or inclination to DIY. Who could she depend on to do it for her?

All of a sudden, the reason for having a professional advisor became crystal clear. It's not about the investment returns as long as they are within reason (ie. a benchmark of indexes minus the costs, give or take a factor for noise). It's about the relationship; having someone you can trust that will look after all the other issues above and beyond simple money management. We have been clients of our current advisor for over 10 years and have no intention to switch. We even have a succession plan in place for when our advisor retires.

Most of my wife's personal investments are under the care of our advisor as well as a portion of our joint investments. Our advisor is well versed in what I am doing on my own with respect to my DIY efforts and the investments are selected to provide a complement with the total picture in mind. We are paying about 1.75% for mid 6 figures under management. These fees are neither outrageously expensive nor cheap. If all you ever do is focus on the investment returns, most likely you will be dissatisfied. You must consider the entire suite of services that you are taking advantage of for the fees paid. If you don't make use of these things, then it is too much strictly for money management.


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## PuckiTwo (Oct 26, 2011)

Lephturn said:


> I've seen the fund industry in Canada from the other side. Personally I think back-loaded funds that lock investors in and include a penalty for early withdrawal should be illegal after seeing how this works from the inside, but the fund industry in Canada is extremely powerful so that is unlikely to change. *Even the lack of clarity with how they report performance and fees is atrocious* - but they all do it.


Lepthurn, thks for that comment. Less than 3 yrs ago our FA sold us back-loaded IA Clarington funds with the promise of a 10% return. Now, when going step by step through the securities he sold us and had to learn that after working through the complexities of the fund distributions that real return taking into account changes in market value and return of capital is actually quite small. We couldn't believe it and thought we made a mistake. Your comment confirms our findings.


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## Lephturn (Aug 31, 2009)

scomac said:


> ...
> Most of my wife's personal investments are under the care of our advisor as well as a portion of our joint investments. Our advisor is well versed in what I am doing on my own with respect to my DIY efforts and the investments are selected to provide a complement with the total picture in mind. We are paying about 1.75% for mid 6 figures under management. These fees are neither outrageously expensive nor cheap. If all you ever do is focus on the investment returns, most likely you will be dissatisfied. You must consider the entire suite of services that you are taking advantage of for the fees paid. If you don't make use of these things, then it is too much strictly for money management.


Very wise advice there scomac. Great comment. It is about far more than strictly the fees. I would rather find a fee-only planner to work with in this regard, but that is very difficult to find in this country.


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## Lephturn (Aug 31, 2009)

PuckiTwo said:


> Lepthurn, thks for that comment. Less than 3 yrs ago our FA sold us back-loaded IA Clarington funds with the promise of a 10% return. Now, when going step by step through the securities he sold us and had to learn that after working through the complexities of the fund distributions that real return taking into account changes in market value and return of capital is actually quite small. We couldn't believe it and thought we made a mistake. Your comment confirms our findings.


I am going to assume those 10% return "promises" were never made in writing - and that if you look at the paperwork you signed it talks about how you were advised that there were no guarantees - losses are expected - etc.

That said - 3 years ago eh... (counts backwards) -TSX 3 year chart-. Mid 2011 you would have been in good shape overall. Yes the fees are high, but it's not like you bought it a year EARLIER than that, which would have been rough.


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## PuckiTwo (Oct 26, 2011)

Lephturn said:


> 1. I am going to assume those 10% return "promises" were never made in writing - and that if you look at the paperwork you signed it talks about how you were advised that there were no guarantees - losses are expected - etc.
> 
> 2. That said - 3 years ago eh... (counts backwards) -TSX 3 year chart-. Mid 2011 you would have been in good shape overall. Yes the fees are high, but it's not like you bought it a year EARLIER than that, which would have been rough.


 1. Actually, we have it in writing by email as ........_"recommend a dividend fund.Like IA CLARINGTON Can Dividend Growth ,which has great holdings and pays 10% a month......" _. I assume that our FA included RoC and all in the 10% and we were stupid enough at that time not to check it.
2. The funds were bought in March 2010 - according to your comment ..."would have been rough"...... 
Thks a lot for yr comment.

*Edit after posting:* Interestingly, we did not get any documents to sign and requested them a few months ago when we started to check the whole portfolio and found them missing. It's too late now anyway.


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## martinv (Apr 30, 2009)

Everyone has different ideas on this which is what it is all about.
I still have difficulty with the thought of paying and adviser $1,000 each and every month to manage $500,000 (2.5%). Even at 1.75% it is $729 each month.
In some locales in Canada that would be a mortgage payment towards a house or condo.
If I need tax advice, I see my accountant. if I need law advice,I see my lawyer.
Note, the $500,00 is not my investment portfolio (only an example), I just thought that many nearing retirement would have that built up over the years. Yes, some less, some more.
Of course, I complain about my $80.00 per month TV bill for 250 channels of nothing. Enjoying the Olympics though!


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

scomac said:


> ...Most of my wife's personal investments are under the care of our advisor as well as a portion of our joint investments. Our advisor is well versed in what I am doing on my own with respect to my DIY efforts and the investments are selected to provide a complement with the total picture in mind. We are paying about 1.75% for mid 6 figures under management. These fees are neither outrageously expensive nor cheap. If all you ever do is focus on the investment returns, most likely you will be dissatisfied. You must consider the entire suite of services that you are taking advantage of for the fees paid. If you don't make use of these things, then it is too much strictly for money management.


We have the same strategy. The problem is that the advisor retired and we have yet to bond with the new guy. So far we have made no rash decisions but are considering moving the investments to our DIY account. Again, leaving it there is a form of life insurance. But we already have a whack of life insurance. That is another story for another day.

So I am thinking of just leaving instructions for managing a couch potato portfolio in the even of my death. DW does enjoy picking stocks but has all the problems with doing so. So I am planning on leaving a small discretionary portfolio of play money to satisfy her...


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## RedRose (Aug 2, 2011)

No FA here, as advised by several of you here to DIY and save the fees.
I am surprised to see you have FA.
We did have a FA at RBC that managed our Mutual Funds and took lots of MER and another fee so the fund hardly grew with the 2008 dip.
I am just about to set up a DIY portfolio with dividend paying blue chip type stocks. 
I will not take too much in risks or volatility types and will be happy with a yeild of 4 or 5%
Does this seem feasible to you all?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

RedRose said:


> No FA here, as advised by several of you here to DIY and save the fees.
> I am surprised to see you have FA.


The FA only handles 15% of our combined portfolio. Mainly Europe and BRIC. I do not spend enough time on those to make wise choices so I outsource.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

RedRose said:


> No FA here, as advised by several of you here to DIY and save the fees.


With all due respect, I think you are mistaken. Many members hinted that you might be better off with a good investment advisor. DIY investing is best suited for those who are willing, able and have the right temperament. If you are lacking in any of these requirements, you will likely be better off with a *good* advisor. If you are unable or don't know to (a) develop an investment plan appropriate for you and (b) stick to that plan in good and bad markets, you are setting yourself up to lose far more in your investments than the fees a good advisor might have charged you. Yes, fees are important but only if you can invest intelligently in the first place. Just my 2 cents.


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## scomac (Aug 22, 2009)

kcowan said:


> The FA only handles 15% of our combined portfolio. Mainly Europe and BRIC. I do not spend enough time on those to make wise choices so I outsource.


Approximately 35% for us. That maybe shocking to some, but it isn't about the expertise or lack there of as much as it is about planning for the future. The side benefit is that certain services that would have to be purchased on a strictly DIY basis are provided as part of the package.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

scomac said:


> Approximately 35% for us. That maybe shocking to some, but it isn't about the expertise or lack there of as much as it is about planning for the future. The side benefit is that certain services that would have to be purchased on a strictly DIY basis are provided as part of the package.


We also had a great stock broker. He never promoted anything he did not personally know. He was an engineer. He invited us to meetings with their CEOs. When he retired in 2009, we were unable to find a replacement.


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## blin10 (Jun 27, 2011)

and what if something happens to your adviser and you get stuck with a new guy who not as good? if something happens to you, your wife can still login to your portfolio online, it's not like money disappear, she might not be able to find good companies to invest in but I mean your investment will still be there and she can sell if she needs funds... wow 1.75% on half a mill, that's like $750/month on 500k portfolio, not to rain on your parade but what a rip off in my opinion... that's a lease payment on a nice bmw right there



scomac said:


> WE have a portion of our investment portfolio under professional management. This was done initially as a form of insurance should it have proven out that I was completely ill suited to managing investments on my own. Once it became clear that this wasn't going to be an issue, I gnashed my teeth for a couple of years fretting over investment returns from our managed money. It wasn't that returns were bad, just not as good. Then I had an epiphany. *What if something happened to me? My wife had no interest or inclination to DIY. Who could she depend on to do it for her?*
> 
> All of a sudden, the reason for having a professional advisor became crystal clear. It's not about the investment returns as long as they are within reason (ie. a benchmark of indexes minus the costs, give or take a factor for noise). It's about the relationship; having someone you can trust that will look after all the other issues above and beyond simple money management. We have been clients of our current advisor for over 10 years and have no intention to switch. We even have a succession plan in place for when our advisor retires.
> 
> Most of my wife's personal investments are under the care of our advisor as well as a portion of our joint investments. Our advisor is well versed in what I am doing on my own with respect to my DIY efforts and the investments are selected to provide a complement with the total picture in mind. We are paying about 1.75% for mid 6 figures under management. These fees are neither outrageously expensive nor cheap. If all you ever do is focus on the investment returns, most likely you will be dissatisfied. You must consider the entire suite of services that you are taking advantage of for the fees paid. If you don't make use of these things, then it is too much strictly for money management.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

blin10 said:


> and what if something happens to your adviser and you get stuck with a new guy who not as good? if something happens to you, your wife can still login to your portfolio online, it's not like money disappear, she might not be able to find good companies to invest in but I mean your investment will still be there and she can sell if she needs funds... wow 1.75% on half a mill, that's like $750/month on 500k portfolio, not to rain on your parade but what a rip off in my opinion...* that's a lease payment on a nice bmw right there*


Yes, but methinks a freshly-widowed spouse would benefit not quite as much from a BMW lease payment as she might from knowing that a competent advisor is standing by with a thoughtful and well-executed plan to get her through the coming months and years, and reduce the number of decisions she needs to make at a time when she might not want to take those things on.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

I think perhaps a better solution is to educate your spouse. This may not be a viable solution for everyone but my spouse is probably almost as interested in investments as I am. Furthermore, we discuss every trade and she needs to understand the rationale for me to proceed. When you consider the fees you would have to pay for such dubious comfort surely, you should at least try this approach. I am starting with my daughter's investing education now. Otherwise some FA will be making a ton off of her when we are gone.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Square Root said:


> Otherwise some FA will be making a ton off of her when we are gone.


And so will the auto mechanics, electricians....


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## blin10 (Jun 27, 2011)

nobody knows that... if he's gone, advisor can be gone later as well, and the new guy can screw her up big time...



MoneyGal said:


> Yes, but methinks a freshly-widowed spouse would benefit not quite as much from a BMW lease payment as she might from knowing that a competent advisor is standing by with a thoughtful and well-executed plan to get her through the coming months and years, and reduce the number of decisions she needs to make at a time when she might not want to take those things on.


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## PuckiTwo (Oct 26, 2011)

Square Root said:


> I think perhaps a better solution is to educate your spouse. This may not be a viable solution for everyone but my spouse is probably almost as interested in investments as I am. Furthermore, we discuss every trade and she needs to understand the rationale for me to proceed.


Kudos to you. That is an excellent approach. I had not much interest in finances until we retired. Since 2008/2009 and some expensive mistakes by the then FA later I knew that I had to learn about investing. There is always the possibility that something happens to my spouse and I need to be prepared for it. It is not easy but I see it as a new challenge in retirement and can only encourage anybody who is not versed in their own financial matters to learn about them. Experience has shown us that FAs make mistakes too and control is better than absolute trust.



blin10 said:


> and what if something happens to your adviser and you get stuck with a new guy who not as good? i


Not only with a new advisor. The existing one, no matter how good he may be now, may also slack off when he experiences that he deals with an unknowledgable person. 



RedRose said:


> No FA here, as advised by several of you here to DIY and save the fees.
> I am surprised to see you have FA. We did have a FA at RBC that managed our Mutual Funds and took lots of MER and another fee so the fund hardly grew with the 2008 dip. I am just about to set up a DIY portfolio with dividend paying blue chip type stocks. I will not take too much in risks or volatility types and will be happy with a yeild of 4 or 5%. Does this seem feasible to you all?


Rose, I followed somewhat your original thread and if I were you I would be scared to manage the whole portfolio by myself. Dividend paying blue chip stocks with a yield of 4 or 5% can also dip and stay down for a long time. It helps to have a good FA with a reasonable fee who sets up your asset allocation and makes suggestions which stocks/ETFs or whatever is appropriate for your situation. You don't have to leave every decision to the FA. You can still do your own due diligence and check out the securities he/she advises you on. This way you learn and the more you learn the more independent you become from the FA. I also wanted to throw our FA over board but now as I am learning I appreciate more what he did - though not everything. At the same time I am moving cautiously some of the securities out of his reach into DIY - but it took me quite some time.


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## scomac (Aug 22, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> Yes, but methinks a freshly-widowed spouse would benefit not quite as much from a BMW lease payment as she might from knowing that a competent advisor is standing by with a thoughtful and well-executed plan to get her through the coming months and years, and reduce the number of decisions she needs to make at a time when she might not want to take those things on.


Well put. It seems as though some folks can't possibly fathom that investing is simply not something that engages some folks. As I mentioned upthread, a succession plan was already in place in the eventuality that our current advisor was no longer practicing. In the mean time, I will continue to manage the bulk of our assets. As a further contingency, our oldest son is managing his own investment program so my wife will have a sounding board to bounce recommendations off of. In the end,the most important consideration is that her needs are met. This is far more valuable than a BMW lease payment to both her and me.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

my wife has minimal interest in finances aside from saving. As a result her contributions go to fixed income and mine goes to equities. We plan to give our son the financial literacy that my wife never received and my parents stopped enforcing when I became a teen. He is only 2 years old but watches Cramer with me regularly (I only watch it as entertainment and not for information but do learn the odd thing on occasion) when I need a chuckle. He knows who Cramer is as well as Gail. Both of us come from families that did not have a lot of money so we understand the need for frugality even though we don't always practice it diligently. Full knowing, that my wife currently shows little interest in DIY I plan to prepare my son to be able to handle these needs if he is a suitable age if and when the time comes. More importantly, I think giving him financial literacy is more important than funding his education(give a man a fish vs teach a man to fish). If this should occur before, he and I are ready, I do have plans in place that will enable her to manage a couch potato portfolio. She could easily manage it. For the time being she has little desire to do the DD required to hold equities. However, she does show inklings of interest and feel that overtime she may try dunking her toe into the DIY waters. She is currently working on a business degree to increase her probability of upward movement in her current position. She has the abilities to DIY but as long as I am around she will really let me do most of that area of our finances.

I am not sure if this was the intent of this thread but its current discussion has made me aware of the need to make sure that everything is in place in the event of a premature and untimely death.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

kudos to square root, scomac & london for thoughtful, respectful, caring & democratic plans & arrangements for wives & children to carry on financially if gawd forbid anything should happen to themselves.

one can see how each has taken into affectionate consideration the learning circumstances for the heirs & legatees. In some cases good advisors will play an important role. As scomac says, not everyone is interested in managing their own portfolio. Having another strong family member ready to play a consulting role is an excellent idea imho. Governance by family committee may be slower & more cumbersome, but there's less chance that a major shock will occur.

finance-proofing all the family members is not just a great idea, it's crucial imho. I had never heard of - nor would i even think of - a 2-year-old being entertained by Cramer but the idea is adorable. I guess to a toddler cramer looks the same as he does to an adult. A noisy clown-like human being who shows wacko pictures.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> ...I guess to a toddler cramer looks the same as he does to an adult. A noisy clown-like human being who shows wacko pictures.


Yes it might give the lad some early experience on how you go about finding people whose advice you trust!


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## martinv (Apr 30, 2009)

I can fully appreciate the need and desire to plan for the the financial future of those you leave behind. Don't forget the role of your lawyer and accountant in this.
Getting back to the original question about value for money, what does your adviser really do for his $750-$1000 per month for the $500,000 portfolio?
I am not being facetious, it is a serious question. Just don't see a lot of answers.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> kudos to square root, scomac & london for thoughtful, respectful, caring & democratic plans & arrangements for wives & children to carry on financially if gawd forbid anything should happen to themselves.


thank you for the kind words HP



humble_pie said:


> I had never heard of - nor would i even think of - a 2-year-old being entertained by Cramer but the idea is adorable. I guess to a toddler Cramer looks the same as he does to an adult. A noisy clown-like human being who shows wacko pictures.


Well said... LOL I can't be too hard on Mr. Cramer though as if it wasn't for his antics I may not have found an outlet for my dissatisfaction in FAs fleecing us sheep and making the move to DIY. I realize that he himself is a wolf in sheep's clothing and no different than the rest of the talking heads and advisers he perpetrates to protect us from but he does make me laugh none the less on the rare occasion that I watch his show.


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## Financial Cents (Jul 22, 2010)

I don't pay any fees other than commission fees for my purchases, probably $100 or so per year. 

I would like to suggest, over time, as more people take control of their personal finances - the majority of investors shouldn't pay any more than that as well for their ETFs, unless like CC said earlier, those individuals are not willing to learn or put it a few hours per year to monitor their investments. 

If that is the case, then a fee-only-advisor is the way to go for those in that camp.


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## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

How difficult can it be to Google 'Best etfs 2012' or similar and put together a respectable, low fee portfolio and avoid paying higher fees for questionable added value?

I'd stick with the Vanguard offerings as much as possible based on my experience. Three to five ETF's should provide ample diversification and then trade only for rebalancing purposes.

You could do worse and it's not rocket science.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

a better choice than 'Best etfs of 2012' would be 'Lowest MER etfs' as they all pretty much have the same holdings. Probably the easiest is to hold a Canadian, US and emerging markets in the correct allocation. Studies have shown that proper allocation does more for performance than the holdings themselves when it comes to baskets of funds. Of course the biggest drag is cost of purchase, holding and selling. To save on further costs do not trade to rebalance but use further contributions to rebalance. Mind you this would not apply to those in retirement such as Belguy as they are no longer in the accumulation stage.


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## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

I am still trying to accumulate big gains for my portfolio (but without much luck!).:crushed::apologetic::05.18-flustered::nightmare:


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## RedRose (Aug 2, 2011)

The discussion on here, actually happened to me.
I was left with financial decisions and such. 

It has taken me a little over a year to get to this point of investing.
I see buying and selling is not rocket science and with a little guidance from those that are familiar with all this.
I can see how I could develop an income stream from the Capital.

Using a FA it could cost 10K a year for the same stocks or etfs that I would choose anyway.
Is that worth it over 20 years? I don't think any of us have $200,000.00 to give away over our Senior years.


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## martinv (Apr 30, 2009)

martinv said:


> I can fully appreciate the need and desire to plan for the the financial future of those you leave behind. Don't forget the role of your lawyer and accountant in this.
> Getting back to the original question about value for money, what does your adviser really do for his $750-$1000 per month for the $500,000 portfolio?
> I am not being facetious, it is a serious question. Just don't see a lot of answers.


Sometimes what is left unsaid is most interesting. No replies as yet.....


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

martinv said:


> Sometimes what is left unsaid is most interesting. No replies as yet.....


I think the vast majority of regular posters in here don't have an advisor. You are asking this question in the wrong place.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Uh, I went back and re-read the first page of this thread and there were two responses on that page alone. :rolleyes2:


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## martinv (Apr 30, 2009)

Sorry, I will just go back to whatever it was I was doing.


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