# Personal debt of Canadians



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Once again, a report has come out showing 50% of Canadians are $200 away from insolvency. Insolvency meaning in this case, not being able to pay their monthly bills. https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/50-of-canadians-face-insolvency-amid-debt-hopelessness-survey-1.1376463

This is not new news by any means and has been discussed here before. It just makes me think there is something fundamentally wrong with our whole financial system. Why does our system allow so many people to get into such a situation? What encourages it, what discourages it? I have to think that a great deal of the problem is credit card debt. Should we have much lower limits on credit card debt perhaps?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Inflation is relentless. Wages haven't kept up. People acquired debt to cover the shortfall. Now the debt is an added burden further reducing their disposable income.

The problem will get worse until the wage stagnation problem is resolved. In the absence of price controls, wage stagnation is very problematic to a consumer spending driven economy.

Some people in higher income levels may have a spending problem, but for most people in the low to middle income the problem is an insufficient wages problem.

People can try to cut back on their dining out, purchases and disposable income spending, but we may be at the point where that low hanging fruit has been picked already.

The question is what can be done to increase wages, most notably in a world where competitor countries employees are paid a few dollars a day for their labor, and don't have the same level of fixed expenses of living in a cold climate in a country as big as Canada.

One solution that is being considered is a universal basic income, either in some new form or by increasing existing government programs.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> Inflation is relentless. Wages haven't kept up. People acquired debt to cover the shortfall. Now the debt is an added burden further reducing their disposable income.
> 
> The problem will get worse until the wage stagnation problem is resolved. In the absence of price controls, wage stagnation is very problematic to a consumer spending driven economy.
> 
> ...


It may be convenient to try and suggest there is one simple solution such as increasing wages but unfortunately, the problem exists even with people who have quite high incomes sags. People are simply spending money they don't have, regardless of how much money they have. That's what debt is, spending money you don't have.
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/pattie-...nancial-stress-doesn-t-discriminate-1.1376433

I could as easily say the answer is to not allow debt in the first place, that would eliminate the problem. But it would not be a realistic answer.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Inflation has actually been very low. Some products have never been less expensive to buy. Either because of supply, technology, or both.

We seem to live in an entitled society. Everyone wants it now whether they can afford it or not. Incredibly car loans are now being offered for seven years. Imagine, buying a product that depreciates 20-30 percent per year, has a higher cost of insurance, and paying interest on the loan for five or seven years? Really, how smart is that??? Or buying a vacation, consumer items, or just spending above your income and paying the credit card company 15-20 percent interest when the bank rate is 2 or 3 percent.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It has long been known that rising inflation causes financial stress for people on fixed incomes.

When wages are stagnant for the general population of workers, they are essentially living on fixed incomes as well.

Although overall inflation is rising slowly, the rise in fixed costs such as rent, food and utilities has been rising at a higher rate.

Big screen televisions are cheaper, but people don't buy them every month like they pay rent or buy groceries.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If it were not for consumer debt since 2008, we would still be mired in a deep recession. 

The stock markets would not have advanced as they have. Home prices would be nowhere near where they are today.

Businesses would have laid off or shut down. Unemployment would be high and dependency on government services would be much higher. The economic GDP would have declined.

There is a solution to over-indebtedness. It is within the bankruptcy laws. When people can't pay their debt they default on it and this is what keeps lenders awake at night.

Lenders stop lending. People escape their onerous debt and savers/investors get destroyed.........but the world resets and moves on.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

sags said:


> Inflation is relentless. Wages haven't kept up. People acquired debt to cover the shortfall. Now the debt is an added burden further reducing their disposable income.


Wow. That is a certainly a nice way of looking at it. In my opinion, those Canadians need to have their credit cards/lines of credit taken away from them, like matches would be taken from a child. They obviously have no idea what they are for. Of course there will be many exceptions, but the majority of the idiots in this group, thought that buying something or a lot of things, without a viable plan on how or ever paying it back, was OK. Only a child or an idiot would think like that. For some reason, they did not comprehend that if they spend more money then they make today, they MUST spend less money then they make in the future, to deal with it. That is a not a punishment it is a law of math.

Now, we are in a situation, where if we did cut off these people from their spending addiction, it would create a pronounced reduction in our GDP to the level that the cost to the entire country, might be too large. The Bank of Canada has to weigh the problem of keeping rates low and seeing this problem balloon further or making credit more difficult or expensive and seeing the economy crater. My opinion, is that the problem will not go away. A heroin addict rarely saves themselves. If the country has to go through a ringing out, then let's get on with it now, while the problem is smaller then it will be a decade from now.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Once again, a report has come out showing 50% of Canadians are $200 away from insolvency. Insolvency meaning in this case, not being able to pay their monthly bills.


I always wonder what these survey results actually mean ...

Does it mean 50% of Canadians are barely making ends meet based on their basic needs (food, shelter, etc) ?

Or is it 50% of Canadians are $200 away from insolvency after buying many wants (latest iPhone, car lease, vacation expenses, etc) ?

Big difference between the those ...


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Sags the consumer debt issue is an issue at ALL levels of income, not just those on a fixed income. Sure, there are people whose standard of living may be depreciating because of fixed or low incomes who supplement with consumer credit. I think the big problem is very simple as has been stated above. People are simply spending more that they make across all income levels.

We are in an age where many people focus on the monthly payment and/or the deferred payment schedule rather than the cost or the interest rate. People need to be responsible for their own actions. This big 'we' or 'they' excuse is more often than not nothing more that a big cop out to blame others for our own issues.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I remember when the wheels started coming off the US economy, and loan default rates started rising.

The Bush administration changed the bankruptcy laws to make it much more difficult to declare bankruptcy. They could see what was coming around the corner.

I wonder if Canada will change bankruptcy laws, as they are currently quite favorable to defaulting consumers.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Our economy is bases on consumer spending and debt. If people stop going in debt the powers that be panic. All the forces of persuasion, advertising etc. are aimed in that direction. Everything that can be done to make it easier to go into debt and stay in debt have been done. So why would it come as a shock that people are broke and in debt?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Not to mention central bank policy. These chronically low interest rates are meant to cause people to borrow and spend. It's also a way to prop up real estate, which is a pillar of the Canadian economy (RE accounts for a huge % of our GDP when you consider all associated industries including construction, banking, insurance).

I don't see any desire from central banks to curtail borrowing. They want people to borrow and they want to inflate home prices higher.

Corporations are arguably just as bad, as corporate borrowing is up tremendously during these post-recession years. Though personal debt is a concern, so is corporate borrowing.

Only time will tell if all of this is sustainable.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

I tell my kids.....”it’s not what you make, it’s what you spend.”

20+ years spent in retail banking....I have good insights into how people use money. Gone are the days where you could walk into the average school and see who had the “name brand clothes” and who had discount clothes. Walk into a school today....80+% of the kids are wearing brand name clothes that cost 3x as much. How many TVs did you have growing up? Now, every person in the house has their own “screen”. Social media has allowed us all to see how the “better” half live.....and we all want it. I had a friend complaining about money.....then he mentions that his family has a nice sit down breakfast at a restaurant once a week. That’s easily $200 month. As a banker, you see it all......$10 day coffee habits. $100 a week alcohol habits.....find a modern kitchen without stainless appliances......visit a parking lot and count the BWMs and Benzs. The list goes on and on. It may not always be about day to day borrowing....but the savings rates are brutal...people spend all that they make.....then the mid-term expenses creep in.....new car, new roof, vacation......and they start borrowing.

Another good lesson from my dad.....if you have $5000 and need a car....go spend $2000, not $10,000. Actually took this advice when my first new car was stolen....was handed a cheque for $15,000......went out and replaced my first “dream” car with a used Honda Accord.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

sags said:


> Inflation is relentless. Wages haven't kept up. People acquired debt to cover the shortfall. Now the debt is an added burden further reducing their disposable income.
> 
> The problem will get worse until the wage stagnation problem is resolved. In the absence of price controls, wage stagnation is very problematic to a consumer spending driven economy.
> 
> ...


Plenty of low hanging fruit still available. Let me know when the line up at Tim Hortons dies down. Or when you find a teenager without an iPhone.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

My spouse often comments on the words of a relative who always complains of having no money and always has plenty of consumer debt.

Those words...."I can't afford this but...." 

That but is the precursor to bringing our her credit card and buying something she does not need and cannot afford simply because she is depressed, feels some sort of entitlement, or feels the need to 'keep up' with her friends. She learned absolutely nothing from a bankruptcy at age 20 and wonders why going into retirement she has nothing but debt. She and those like her are just one reason why Canadian bank stock has always performed so well. 

Her situation, though lamentable, is completely of her own making. It comes down to choice.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

One of the big contributors to this these days, in my opinion, is social media, like Facebook. If you have a spending mentality, which I suspect is held by the majority of Canadians, seeing all your friends taking wonderful trips, buying cars, boats, clothes, and massive houses, as well as eating out at the best restaurants, and doing nice and spoiling things for their kids, would be very hard to ignore by someone who likes to spend.

The real cause is the lack of understanding debt, by these people, but sites like Facebook certainly help fuel it.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The US financial crisis was created in one evening when banks no longer trusted the credit trustworthiness of their financial counterparts.

Former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan said he sat in shock and horror and watched the world financial system seize up in a matter of minutes.

People will be forced to severely curtail their spending if wages don't start going up, and the results for the economy won't be pretty.

Be careful what you wish for........you just might get it.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

It was also caused by greedy people who purchased homes they could not afford, falsified income levels, signed up for balloon mortgages, and took mortgages at a level greater than the value of their homes. And of course.....took lump sum upfront money to buy that was one reason why the mortgages were at a higher value than their homes. Then the financial institutions, sensing a problem, bundled those mortgages into groups and flogged them to brokers who in turn flogged them to unsuspected investors. It was a house of cards that was partly attributable to very lax banking, mortgage, and investment rules/oversight.

Wages will go up with labour demand. They will not go up by magic or by legislation. If you expect them to rise suddenly then also expect an increase in consumer prices, and increase in inflation, and an increase in interest rates.

What do you think the effect of a sudden jump in interest rates will have on a population that is already over their heads in consumer debt? People will be forced to curtail their spending because they have been overspending for years and there is no longer anyone willing to risk giving them more credit.

People need to smarten up and live within their means, and put a little aside for the future. It is not rocket science.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

“More than 8 out of every 10 people who file insolvency are working; it’s not unemployment that directly causes most insolvencies, it’s cash flow.” Doug Hoyes, co-founder of Hoyes, Michalos & Associates, told Yahoo Finance Canada.

*“The issue is that expenses are rising faster than income, so people use debt to make ends meet.” *

Despite a tight labour market, *wages rose around 2.5 per cent in 2019. But that doesn’t keep up with food prices, which rose around 3.5 per cent.*

*It also doesn’t keep up with rising rent costs of about 9 per cent*, which is where 40 per cent of Hoyes’s clients’ income goes

Edit...I will go out on a limb here and say that Hoyes likely sees fewer home owners in his bankruptcy offices because they are using their homes to service their debts with HELOCs. 

This is substantiated by the cycle of debt the credit agencies such as TransUnion and Equifax have observed.

Borrow on credit cards...pay off credit cards with HELOC...remortgage to pay off HELOC...borrow on credit cards...pay off credit cards with HELOC....rinse and repeat.

Further evidence is the fact that a significant higher numbers of retirees still have mortgage debt despite owning their homes for decades.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

The issue with these reports is they only focus on debt vs income but do not consider net worth. Not all debt is bad debt. Its highly improbable that $200 will cause insolvency for so many people.

Just like any business, the more people are willing to pay, the more the banks are willing to lend. It's what generates profits and makes the economy roll.

Inflation or stagnant wages is not the problem. Inflation is relatively low so a stagnant wage has no impact here. 
But the latest iphone, recent car, lavish vacation, and whatever trend is out there that makes people rush to make sure they're not missing out.......THAT is the problem.

Don't blame the banks nor the government. Everyone is trying to make a buck. And if society cannot recognize that, then they should be educating themselves on managing their finances.

If everyone would be saving their money and living a frugal life, our country would be insolvent.....and $200 may be the trigger.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I agree there likely isn't a reasonable solution. Employers aren't going to voluntarily pay higher wages and the government likely doesn't want to get involved.

The "unreasonable" solution is that consumers will be faced with a choice of continuing to pay their debts and not eating or defaulting on their debt and reset their finances.

As the default rate rises, lenders will cut back lending and that in itself will force more people into default. It is a self fulfilling cycle that happened in the US financial crisis.

My best guess is that we are heading for a major financial systemic problem that will wreak havoc on investors and asset owners.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Plenty of greed here in Canada too. I'm currently in a condo building where it seems that someone buys & flips a property every few months. The unit above me has been bought & sold TWICE within 24 months.

This building is full of constant drilling, hammering, and plumbing work as everyone madly keeps renovating and making unnecessary changes. They buy units, spend tons of $ on kitchen "upgrades" and install whatever is in vogue that month, then try to sell it to the next sucker. This very moment I'm hearing some jack*** drilling and upgrading to some fancy new, high priced kitchen for cosmetic reasons.

Everyone in this building is flipping. Some people in this building own multiple units, as part of their "property investment" and flipping biz.

Each sucker is undoubtedly financing these purchases with debt. We have to realize this is now a significant part of the Canadian economy... kitchen and bathroom renovations. Handymen and trades people who are constantly employed by all of this. Real estate agents and middle men all benefitting from the velocity of money.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

james4beach said:


> We have to realize this is now a significant part of the Canadian economy...


Very significant. Add to that the worst culprits, our Federal, Provincial and Municipal governments and I would hate to see how much of our GDP, last year, was all paid for with debt.

As many of you know, I would love to see the government deficits eliminated, but no matter how bad I think it is, I am well aware that to remove it within a time frame of less then 10 years, would create such economic upheaval, that the resulting loss of tax revenue would probably end up increasing the deficit. The same analogy would hold true with our buying addicted citizens. We need to curb their addiction, but we need to do it slowly so as, not to add to their and our problems, in a greater extent, then what would result if we just let them overdose on spending.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

sags said:


> .... The "unreasonable" solution is that consumers will be faced with a choice of continuing to pay their debts and not eating or defaulting on their debt and reset their finances.


For those that can't cut costs ... sure.

I see many who have a lot of room to cut before coming near the "eat or pay debt" decision.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Plenty of greed here in Canada too. I'm currently in a condo building where it seems that someone buys & flips a property every few months. The unit above me has been bought & sold TWICE within 24 months.
> 
> This building is full of constant drilling, hammering, and plumbing work as everyone madly keeps renovating and making unnecessary changes ... Some people in this building own multiple units, as part of their "property investment" and flipping biz.
> 
> Each sucker is undoubtedly financing these purchases with debt ... kitchen and bathroom renovations. Handymen and trades people who are constantly employed by all of this ...


Maybe it's a local thing or there's something specific to that building?

Around here, people are complaining about how it's all but impossible to get handymen and trades people in for renos that are long over due (i.e. ten or more years ago was the last reno). As well, I had to do my own dry wall to sell my house in 2003 as it as too small a job for anyone who bothered to bid on it.



Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

sags said:


> The US financial crisis was created in one evening when banks no longer trusted the credit trustworthiness of their financial counterparts ...


The problems others had noted but nothing was done about came to roost that one evening.

The lead up for things like deregulation, banks that kept to more conservative underwriting caving to match those running wild with sub-prime mortgages, investment banks ignoring those internally flagging the conflict of interest etc. etc.




sags said:


> ... Former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan said he sat in shock and horror and watched the world financial system seize up in a matter of minutes.


Interesting considering Greenspan told the House oversight committee that:
a) he regretted his opposition to regulatory curbs on certain types of financial derivatives which have left banks on Wall Street and in the Square Mile facing billions of dollars worth of liabilities.

&

b) he made a mistake in presuming that the self-interests of organisations, specifically banks and others, were such that they were best capable of protecting their own shareholders and their equity in the firms.



Cheers


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

sags said:


> The "unreasonable" solution is that consumers will be faced with a choice of continuing to pay their debts and not eating or defaulting on their debt and reset their finances.


Nonsense. 

Take a look at the waste that every millennial thinks is a "must have for basic living today" compared to the previous generation. 

No wonder they're in debt.

"Oh wait, my charging station for my six i-pads isn't working", and "my GoodFoods order for dinner is late again"......

Sheesh. People do not understand what living with their means is all about. In fact, neither does the present Liberal government.

ltr


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Some people will always be in debt because that's how they're wired. One of my friends built more house than he could afford when he was 43. After 10 years of living pay cheque to pay cheque and approaching retirement (govt job) he realized he couldn't pay the mortgage on his retirement income and still eat.

So, he sold the house and made a small profit. You would think that he'd be happy to finally have his head above water. Nope...he immediately retired 2 years early and took a 10% penalty on a reduced pension (not enough years). Then, he sold a perfectly good paid off 8 year old Toyota Rav with low mileage and bought a $65,000 Jaguar E-Pace. He now lives in an apartment and the rent and car payment take up 80% of his monthly income. Yes, 80%.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

A lot of judgmental people here, and it seems that most of the people think that it's a millennial or gen-x issue. 
It would be worthwhile to actually take a look at the data to put some perspective on it. https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/MNP_Debt_Index-2020-01-20
If you take a look at the summary table you'll see the breakdown into the 18-34, 35-54, and 55+ data. https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default...-01/mnp_debt_index-tables_1-2020-01-20-v1.pdf

A quick summary
18-34: 57% 
35-54: 50% 
55+: 44%.

So, any insight on why 44% of the 55+ cohort are in this situation? These are the people who are nearing retirement or retired. This was the generation that prides itself on buying the cheap homes. So unlike the other ages, they shouldn't have the excuse of mortgage payments.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

There are these ads on TV for CHIP reverse mortgages that make me cringe. Anyone seen these?

Two seniors are sitting discussing renovations to their home. They talk about the reverse mortgage and the money it unlocks (they're trying to imply FREE MONEY)... one of the seniors responds, "let's get a hot tub".

The other responds: "why not TWO" ?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I agree those CHIP ads should be outlawed. The whole point of CHIP is to allow seniors to be able to stay in their houses longer after their savings run low. Not to fund toys.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> There are these ads on TV for CHIP reverse mortgages that make me cringe. Anyone seen these?


I have, at least a one of them is funny ... the parents say there are moving in with their kids into their one bedroom condo. 

Of course these are no worse than the CIBC ad showing people consolidating their debt so they can get a home theater right away.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

They are all focused on 'spending'. Sad state of affairs all around.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> They are all focused on 'spending'. Sad state of affairs all around.


Remember ... you're richer than you think!


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

A solution is universal income for everyone. The government can just take out debt to do it. Interest rates are low and the debt is not that high compared to other countries.. And people can buy what they need to live. In a few years or maybe a decade, the government might have trouble paying the debt but they can just cancel it. The government can also invest a lot of money in renewables at the same time and once all the windmills and solar panels are built, those debts can also be cancelled or ignored by law. This is a pretty simple solution and solves poverty and climate change at the same time.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

cainvest said:


> Remember ... you're richer than you think!


I still love that slogan.

When I was working in Toronto a few years ago, I dropped into a Scotiabank. Their "advisor" was trying to convince me that I could easily afford a $1 M property and large mortgage. Within just a few months of that meeting, I had lost my job due to worsening business conditions.

And a few months after that, I left the country in search of work.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

bgc_fan said:


> A lot of judgmental people here, and it seems that most of the people think that it's a millennial or gen-x issue.
> It would be worthwhile to actually take a look at the data to put some perspective on it. https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/MNP_Debt_Index-2020-01-20
> If you take a look at the summary table you'll see the breakdown into the 18-34, 35-54, and 55+ data. https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default...-01/mnp_debt_index-tables_1-2020-01-20-v1.pdf
> 
> ...


It has never been a millennial problem, it is a human problem. It just seems to hurt Millennials a bit more because it prevents them from buying houses, etc, whereas the older people probably already have houses (mortgaged to the hilt). The millennials are also the youngest members of this group with credit, so we look at them as children with a problem. It is a little more politically correct to try to help them, then the others.

It is a psychological defect in many humans (savers have a few hangups as well, I can add from experience). It combines instant gratification, envy, self esteem and a few other things, that a human with a credit card cannot seem to fight. Give a recovering addict a bag of heroin and a needle and ask them to act responsibly and you will get the same result. 

Their real problem is that way too many people can actually handle credit responsibly, and since it can provide a real benefit to those who can use it wisely, we cannot simply outlaw it, like we do life destroying drugs. Some day we will look at it like alcohol, which has the same issues between those who can use it wisely and those who simply cannot. Identify it as a disease, create an industry of professional phsychologists who are trained in it and do our best to fix it. First, we must admit that we have a problem, just like the alcoholics do.

When a person files for bankruptcy, it is a pretty good sign they have this defect. Why in the world we would ever give them more heroin, sorry, give them more credit, I have no idea. Bankruptcy would be the perfect time to do the pscho analysis to see if they are the rare case, where just bad luck happened or if they are a debt addict. But we don't do that. Another mystery of the mind.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

bgc_fan said:


> A quick summary
> 18-34: 57%
> 35-54: 50%
> 55+: 44%.
> ...


Look at my comment just above yours. Some people are just wired that way. I remember paying off my house and the most common question that people asked me was "are you going to look for a bigger house?"...as if everyone's goal after finally being mortgage free was to buy a larger house.

Why would anyone want to take on a 30 year mortgage when they're 43 as my friend did? He could have sold the almost paid off house he was in at 43 and upgraded to a slightly better part of town and been debt free at 55 when he was eligible for retirement.

Some people think they deserve more...I'm happy with "enough" and being debt free.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> There are these ads on TV for CHIP reverse mortgages that make me cringe. Anyone seen these?
> 
> Two seniors are sitting discussing renovations to their home. They talk about the reverse mortgage and the money it unlocks (they're trying to imply FREE MONEY)... one of the seniors responds, "let's get a hot tub".
> 
> The other responds: "why not TWO" ?


A buddy from The Sunshine Coast Comes down to PV but still records for Canada Direct. Two flavours: invest with me and get 7.3% to 7.7% annual returns on you safe investment, and take out a CHIP on you house. He owns his waterfront home outright but still gets residuals from these ads. Nice guy though. Just doing a paid gig: Bill Good


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> I'm happy with "enough" and being debt free.


Agreed. I had a rather traditional 60's-70's childhood. My approach to managing finances derives from my parents - and to some degree, grandparents. Schools don't do much to help with fiscal managment - long gone are the days of courses like "home economics". Who would have expected, in 1968-70, that we paying cell phone bills, buying goods and groceries on-line, etc. IMO, the best approach to help our kids is to model good, sensible fiscal (not cheap) management. (example: we own one car, it is a 2008 Forester. We take care of it, and it, us. We bike everywhere).


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

bgc_fan said:


> A lot of judgmental people here, and it seems that most of the people think that it's a millennial or gen-x issue ...


Maybe they think it's showing up in spades with the younger folks versus close to completely absent in the boomers and older?




bgc_fan said:


> ... So, any insight on why 44% of the 55+ cohort are in this situation? These are the people who are nearing retirement or retired. This was the generation that prides itself on buying the cheap homes. So unlike the other ages, they shouldn't have the excuse of mortgage payments.


Those that spend more than they make aren't limited to one age group?

There's lots who don't want to talk about financial matters and take on debt they shouldn't.

My sister's co-worker went from one day complaining how despite a much larger income between the two of them working - they couldn't meet all the expenses, including mortgage. About a week later she was talking about how they'd both bought new vehicles.



So yes, it's not limited to one age group.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> Look at my comment just above yours. Some people are just wired that way. I remember paying off my house and the most common question that people asked me was "are you going to look for a bigger house?"...as if everyone's goal after finally being mortgage free was to buy a larger house ...


Interesting ... this was a close second to my most common question about retiring the mortgage ... "how did you do it"?
Most tuned out at the boring answer.


Cheers


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

OptsyEagle said:


> It is and has never been a millennial problem, it is a human problem. It just seems to hurt Millennials a bit more because it prevents them from buying houses, etc, whereas the older people probably already have houses (mortgaged to the hilt). The millennials are also the youngest members of this group with credit, so we look at them as children with a problem. It is a little more politically correct to try to help them, then the others.
> 
> It is a psychological defect in many humans (savers have a few hangups as well, I can add from experience). It combines instant gratification, envy, self esteem and a few other things, that a human with a credit card cannot seem to fight. Give a recovering addict a bag of heroin and a needle and ask them to act responsibly and you will get the same result.
> 
> ...


I agree completely that the real issue is that far too many people simply cannot handle debt responsibly and the analogy of someone who has an alcohol or drug problem is quite apt. There are many contributing factors such as 'entitlement' and easy access to credit, etc. but the basic problem remains that they just don't understand that you cannot spend money you don't have and expect to somehow miraculously continue to do that while at the same time having to pay the previous debts you have incurred. 

As with alcohol or drugs, there should be concerted effort by government at all levels as well as schools and the financial industry to EDUCATE people about spending and debt. There does seem to be a move on the part of schools to start including money management in the curriculum.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/inv...classes-welcomed-in-schools-experts-suggests/

Of course while that would help in the future, it will not do anything for the older generations who are already in trouble. When I first read that 25% of Canadian retirees go into retirement with debt hanging over their head, I was flabbergasted. 
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canadians-retirement-debt-1.4547125

I am old enough to remember when people 'saved up' to buy something. I used to go to a friend's house every week to watch Superman and Gunsmoke on their tv because we did not have one in our house. We got one when my parents had saved enough to buy one and not until, even though you could get one on a 'time payment plan' from the TV store with no interest payments! 

Maybe what we need is for everyone to go through a Depression like people in the 1930s did. Many lessons were learned from that time period by ordinary people. One of those was, 'clean your plate' meaning don't waste food. Of course it also presumes that there is no more food on your plate than you need. Cleaning your plate when in fact there is more than you need, just means getting fat. That's not the intent of 'clean your plate' at all.

We waste an average of $1500 of food per household in Canada. Learning to manage money is not just about not taking on unnecessary debt, it is also about spending the money we have wisely. https://globalnews.ca/news/2952243/food-waste-5-graphics-that-show-just-how-much-food-we-throw-away/ I doubt there are very many people at all who could not learn to spend less if they were forced to do so, without any actual suffering having to be incurred. As has been said, no one 'needs' the absolutely latest and greatest iPhone every time a new one comes out.

Apple (as an example only) cannot force anyone to buy a new smartphone. It is always up to the consumer to make that decision. I continue to believe that the people always get what the people deserve. If someone finds themselves going into bankruptcy as a result of their overspending, that's what they deserve. It has NOTHING to do with anyone else.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eclectic12 said:


> Interesting ... this was a close second to my most common question about retiring the mortgage ... "how did you do it"?
> Most tuned out at the boring answer.
> 
> 
> Cheers


Similar to my answer to people who asked, 'how did you retire so early?' My answer was that I simply spent less than I earned and invested the difference wisely. Easy answer, not so easy for many people to do.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I think a person's first credit card should come with the following stipulations:

1) all outstanding balances must be paid in full, each month, for the 1st 3 years.
2) during that time, no other credit cards can be issued to that person.

What helped me along was that when I was in college, living on my own at the ripe old age of 17, my father gave me a credit card. It had his name on it and I simply signed his name when I used it. I don't know if they even had the ability to have a card issued on one account, in the name of another, back then. Anyway, since I felt a lot safer having the credit card, any time I used it, I would inform my father AFTER the cheque was in the mail to him. I knew that if I went crazy with it, he would simply take it away and I would not have that safety net. 

So, at a young age, the only time I ever used it was when I was absolutely sure I could pay off the balance before the end of the month. If I couldn't I would use any other method to obtain money BEFORE I would use the card, since it was that valuable to me.

Of course, when you live on your own at age 17 you learn that the financial safety money provides is WAYYYYYY more important then the stuff it buys. I suppose some of those lessons were unique to my particular situation at my particular age.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Some advice that I got early on

-it is not what you earn, it is what you save

-never finance an asset that depreciates


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

I remember a time that the use of credit was a stigma, a tacit admission of financial failure. Even the law didn't allow credit to be used for groceries at the time. This would be 50's, early 60's.

That has completely flipped. Now, you get strange looks when you use cash, it's a stigma, a tacit admission of bad credit.

So, in that environment, it's easy to see how people just use their credit cards without thinking about whether or not they'll be able to pay it when the bill comes... After all, they believe that since the statement says "minimum payment due", that's all they need to pay.

Anyone remember 'layaway'? Is that still a thing? You put money each month towards a purchase that the store held for you; then you got the item once you paid in full. Not even any interest paid, IIRC.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

OptsyEagle said:


> I think a person's first credit card should come with the following stipulations ...


Great idea ... but with lenders falling over each other to grab market share, I doubt it's going to happen.

The whole granting of a CC was a farce for me. First it was the letter saying I'd proven through my credit history that I could handle it so return this form and one will be issued. I took too long to confirm I would use it correctly so the return form triggered a letter that the offer had expired, attached is the form if I was still interested.

Despite being offered one, the form was rejected with a letter saying after review, I had too much credit already!!

A short walk down to the university to get the student CC application and voila, I'm credit worthy of a CC again.

The kicker for me was that it was the FI for all the stages!!??!!


BTW ... my sister received an Amex card in the name of her cat, a few years later.




OptsyEagle said:


> ... I don't know if they even had the ability to have a card issued on one account, in the name of another, back then.


IIRC my father opened the CC account then had a second CC issued with my mom's name on it in the '80s or so.


Cheers


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The inability to pay for groceries with a credit card was still alive and well into the '70s I believe, maybe even longer. Can't remember when we actually started to use a credit card for groceries.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I think there was a dumb law back then that said that you cannot force a person into bankruptcy if they used debt to acquire a necessity of life. Food was on that list and hence banks wouldn't allow the use of their cards in food stores. I suspect that law was changed a few decades ago. It was a stupid law.

Credit cards are wonderful to pay for an item where it is above $100 but that you don't really know the final cost until you are at the check out. They are also great to allow you access to many thousands of dollars quickly for emergencies, without the risk of carrying around thousands of dollars in cash.

They are a means to facilitate a transaction, NOT to pay for one. They are not money in the bank. They are not a sign that you can pay it off or the bank would not have given you the credit limit they gave. They should only be used when you know you can pay off the entire balance when the bill comes in. If not, you cannot afford whatever it is that you intend to buy. It is all quite simple.


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## prisoner24601 (May 27, 2018)

Hmmm, if I was a company that offered bankrupcy and consumer trustee services for a fee (MNP Ltd.) I might pay IPSOS for a survey to drum up some business from worried folk! 

I think the definition of insolvency used in the MNP survey may give some indication of a problem but maybe not $200 away from crisis. From the Government of Canada website https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/bsf-osb.nsf/eng/br01861.html they list these danger signals that you have a debt problem which seem like more accurate indicators to me:

Recognize the danger signals

You have a debt problem, or are going to have one, if:

you continually go over your spending limit or you use your credit cards as a necessity rather than a convenience
you are always borrowing money to make it from one payday to the next
you pay only interest or service charges monthly and do not reduce your total debt over many months
creditors pressure you for payment, have obtained a wage garnishment, threaten to sue or repossess your car, furniture or television, or hire a collection agency to recover the money for them
utility companies cut off service because your bills have gone unpaid


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Stagnant wages eroded by inflation is the well documented problem.

_As PressProgress reported previously, despite Finance Minister Morneau bragging about average Canadians getting ahead, the Bank of Canada has noted Canadians’ average wages are stagnant.

And, median hourly wages have done even worse. PressProgress reported, with 5.2% inflation from September 2015 to September 2018, real median wages actually fell 0.3%._

*2017 figures show*:

_Average incomes rose just 2.8% in two years.

Incomes of the top decile rose nearly 5%.

The top 10% took in a quarter of all growth, while the bottom 40% took in only one-fifth of all growth.

Pre-tax inequality figures the highest since 2010, after tax inequality figures up as well.

*Since the 1980s, majority of population’s incomes stagnated or fell, while top 1% and 0.1% of earners had their incomes grow at a staggering rate.*_

https://pressprogress.ca/new-data-s...-even-as-the-canadian-economy-boomed-in-2017/


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

OptsyEagle said:


> Credit cards are wonderful to pay for an item where it is above $100 but that you don't really know the final cost until you are at the check out. They are also great to allow you access to many thousands of dollars quickly for emergencies, without the risk of carrying around thousands of dollars in cash.
> 
> They are a means to facilitate a transaction, NOT to pay for one. They are not money in the bank. They are not a sign that you can pay it off or the bank would not have given you the credit limit they gave. They should only be used when you know you can pay off the entire balance when the bill comes in. If not, you cannot afford whatever it is that you intend to buy. It is all quite simple.


Credit cards are a great convenience for those of us that don't carry a balance. And they're necessary in some cases...try booking a hotel without one.

I'm a points whore....every single thing I can put on my card goes on it from $2 burgers to my monthly phone and cable bill. This year I'll get $600 or so cash back and have no annual fee. I pay no interest as I pay it in full every month.


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## CPA Candidate (Dec 15, 2013)

I don't take surveys like this very seriously because where are the actual recorded bankruptcies if so many are that close to the edge?

https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/bsf-osb.nsf/eng/br04177.html#table1

Actual consumer bankruptcies decreased to 54,344 in the 12 month period ending Nov 30, 2019, from 55,381 in the 12 month period ending Nov 30, 201, a decrease of 1.9%. 

Consumer proposals were up 17% though.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Consumer proposals are far less onerous and have replaced bankruptcies. There is quite a variance among Provinces as well. People in Saskatchewan must be in good financial shape.

As long as more credit is available, people will make use of it before they will file a bankruptcy or consumer proposal.

If they are screwed, it makes no difference to them if they owe $30,000 or $75,000, and they might as well withdraw cash advances or fill up the freezer before they file.

When the lenders cut off further credit, that is when the defaults will go through the roof.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I think insolvency is different than personal bankruptcy, though a prolonged state of the former (cash in red) can lead to the latter.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

I shake my head in disbelief when people talk about retiring but still have debt, even a mortgage. I have been debt averse for several years and have even got one of my kids on the same kick now. The way people accept debt is likely why credit card and finance companies fare so well. Yes, I have a credit card and use it to pay for everything because it pays me. It gets paid off every month though so I don't have to pay interest.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> The inability to pay for groceries with a credit card was still alive and well into the '70s I believe, maybe even longer. Can't remember when we actually started to use a credit card for groceries.


In the 70s in Alberta, only Woodwards cards were accepted for their own grocery purchases. So we shopped there for convenience credit.

I vaguely recall that we could use Chargex by around 1980. That was truly liberating since Woodwards was not the only grocery store in town.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> Stagnant wages eroded by inflation is the well documented problem.
> 
> _As PressProgress reported previously, despite Finance Minister Morneau bragging about average Canadians getting ahead, the Bank of Canada has noted Canadians’ average wages are stagnant.
> 
> ...


You want to keep banging on about wages not being high enough sags but you also continue to ignore the fact that the problem of debt is not confined to those with low wages.

So while low wages are no doubt ONE problem that applies to those on low wages, it says nothing to why someone earning $50k plus per year still end up with a debt problem. The fact is that people simply spend more than they earn, REGARDLESS of how much they earn. Someone with $100k+ income with a big house, 2 new cars and a boat in the drieway can still be only $200 away from not being able to pay their monthly bills if they lost their job tomorrow.

The issue of debt vs. income has TWO sides sag. Try to look at the other side. If someone learns to live WITHIN their income and living within your income includes setting aside some savings, then they do not have a problem, EVER. The problem ONLY arises when someone does not live within their income. 

How many students going to university and living away from home, manage to live quite happily with an old banger of a car (if any car at all), eat pot noodles or Kraft dinners and buy a 6 pack of beer for a night of partying? No doubt, many of them get by on under $20k per year. There is no reason why they could not continue to do that regardless of how their income increases over the years. But what happens is that their EXPECTATIONS of how they should be living increase over time. That is as it should be in principle but not to the level they expect so quickly. They want a house, a new car, the latest iPhone, etc. NOW and to do so, they spend more than they earn. That's call going into debt. Just because someone can qualify for a car loan does not mean they can actually AFFORD a car loan. People don't seem to understand the difference.

Take two average people earning more or less the same wage of any level. One tells you they are just making ends meet and the other tells you they are managing to put some money into savings, however much. It doesn't take a genius to figure out which one is doing a better job of managing money. Your answer is to pay the first one more and you think that will solve the problem. But it will NOT, it will only give them more money to MISMANAGE.

Managing spending so that you live within your income is the solution to the problem of going into debt.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> I think insolvency is different than personal bankruptcy, though a prolonged state of the former (cash in red) can lead to the latter.


That is correct AltaRed but some people don't seem to understand the difference. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/insolvency.asp

Someone can be 'insolvent' (unable to pay their debt obligations) while at the same time still having a positive net worth. Bankruptcy is when legal proceedings are started to get payment for a debtor or get the insolvent individual (or company) a fresh start. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bankruptcy.asp

If for example someone were insolvent, sold their house and used the cash to pay off all debt, they might still have some money left in their hand. Having discharged all their debt, they would have no need to go into bankruptcy to start over but they would have done so because they were INSOLVENT.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mechanic said:


> I shake my head in disbelief when people talk about retiring but still have debt, even a mortgage. I have been debt averse for several years and have even got one of my kids on the same kick now. The way people accept debt is likely why credit card and finance companies fare so well. Yes, I have a credit card and use it to pay for everything because it pays me. It gets paid off every month though so I don't have to pay interest.


I look at a credit card as a way to MAKE more income Mechanic. Many years ago I took a 'correspondence course' in Money Management. For those not old enough to know what a correspondence course was, you got sent material to study and do a written test on; you mailed (snail mail) your test back to be marked and commented on. Next month you got another chapter of the course to study and do a test on and so it went on until you finished the course.

In that course, it taught me to see a credit card as a means of generating income. There is no doubt a revolutionary thought for many people. The principle is simple and obvious if you know to look for it. You buy an item using your card and are not expected to pay for it until a due date some time later. It could be as much as 55 days or as little as 21 days. But however many it is, you can be earning daily interest on your money sitting in your bank account for each of those days. You are in fact getting FREE credit for each of those days and earning interest at the same time because of that.
https://www.thebalance.com/billing-cycle-960690

So while Prairie Guy for example recognizes that he can earn $600 a year from points by using a card, he could also figure out how much interest income is being earned on top of that. Nowadays with interest rates being so low, it will not amount to a great deal per year but however little it is, it is income being earned from using a credit card.

When I first learned this, interest rates were much higher than today and because of this I also learned to look at HOW a bank pays me interest. If a bank was paying 12% annual interest, did they calculate it once a year, once a quarter, once a month or daily? Is it calculated on the lowest monthly balance or on the daily balance? It makes a difference in the actual amount you will earn obviously. So what was wanted was a daily interest account that was calculated and paid monthly. That then meant that the few dollars that was deposited into your account each month as a result of this was then sitting there ready for the magic of 'compound interest' to go into affect. Compound interest being yet another thing that many people don't understand.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There are statutory limits on how much "equity" a bankrupt can retain and rules on who is considered "insolvent".

_To be eligible to file bankruptcy in Canada you must be an insolvent person which means you:

* *owe at least $1,000 in unsecured debt,
*are unable to pay your debts as they come due or
*you owe more in debts than the value of the assets you own*, and
*you must either reside, do business, or have property in Canada._

_Under Ontario law, certain assets are exempt from seizure by a bankruptcy trustee in an Ontario bankruptcy. The rules regulating bankruptcy exemptions in Ontario say that in an event of a personal bankruptcy you are permitted to keep the following:

*unlimited clothing
*$6,600 for a motor vehicle (car, truck, etc.);
*$13,150 worth of furnishings and appliances;
*$11,300 worth of tools of the trade (equipment that you use to earn a living);
*Most pension plans, certain types of life insurance policies, and RRSPs (excluding recent contributions)._

_Under Ontario law, *if the equity in your home does not exceed $10,000*, all you need to do to keep your home is maintain the mortgage payments. Your mortgage lender cannot foreclose on your home just because you went bankrupt. Some other provinces have similar exemptions that allow you to keep a certain equity in your house, you can research other Canada laws around bankruptcy and home equity here.
_
All "household" income above a statutory level is considered surplus and must be paid to the trustee. The bankrupt must also file monthly income/expense sheets to the trustee.

https://www.hoyes.com/personal-bankruptcy/


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Wage stagnation is at the core of the problem and creation of debt flows from there for many people. 

The anecdotes of high wages earners who are in financial trouble, would represent a very small minority of the population. 

More likely, they are included in the 50% of people who don't have financial problems paying their monthly bills.

High wage earners have enjoyed disproportionately large income increases, compared to everyone else.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I disagree.

People are responsible for their own debt. New cars, two cars, furniture, name brand clothing/shoes, vacations, deluxe cell phones and cell phone plans all on credit. Not to mention buying larger homes than they can afford.

This practice of pointing a finger at employers, Government, credit providers, banks etc. is grossly misplaced. 

Just go into a Best Buy on the weekend or see how many people are driving those big, recent model SUVs.

People can better themselves and move forward. I think the immigrants and refugees in this country do that far better than some born in Canada because they realize that Canada offers incredible opportunities to those willing to sacrifice and work hard.

I left high school and work on the railway for a year. Then decided to go back to school and university because I realized that it was a dead end trap of a job. Same with my sister. Married, divorced with small child. She did exactly the same. A few years of university at Concordia, then moved to Vancouver with her son to get her B ed. at SFU. Taught fine arts at the senior high level after grad. It was tough going but she realized that the opportunity was there for someone willing to stretch, to sacrifice, and to work hard. 

If neither of us had done this we both could have been sitting back today blaming everyone for our situation. Let's see....we could blame the Government, Trudeau, immigration, employers, inflation, unions, or the elites. Lots of people to blame except perhaps ourselves.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

With the exception of truly low income people as defined by StatsCan, virtually everyone else can live within their means. Buy 3 yr old used vehicles rather than new, keep that iPhone 4 rather than a new iPhone10 and use a bare minimum talk/text plan. There are many ways to live within one's means at a wide variety of income levels. We all did when we had too when we were young.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> With the exception of truly low income people as defined by StatsCan, virtually everyone else can live within their means. Buy 3 yr old used vehicles rather than new, keep that iPhone 4 rather than a new iPhone10 and use a bare minimum talk/text plan. There are many ways to live within one's means at a wide variety of income levels. We all did when we had too when we were young.


Exactamundo as they used to say AltaRed. But it is always easier and human nature to blame someone else. The problem remains with expectations and a sense of entitlement as to what they SHOULD be able to afford but cannot.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I used to be debt adverse, until an unexpected injury almost destroyed me financially because I was...now I have a healthy 7 figures of debt,backed by 2-3x that in assets, all making me a healthier 5-6 figure monthly income...debt is a tool, used properly you can build amazing things, used improperly it can get you hurt.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Canadians have an income problem, not a debt problem.

https://boomerandecho.com/canadians-have-an-income-problem-not-a-debt-problem/

One example:

The median after-tax income for Canadian families is $71,700.

Meanwhile, the average house price in Canada is $512,501. That’s an incredible 7x income! 

For reference, the typical rule of thumb for housing affordability is 2.5x income. That means Canadians should be buying homes worth $179,250.

Good luck finding a home for $179,250.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Anecdotes are interesting. How about some that show people's cost of living remaining the same year over year or declining, just like their incomes.

How about examples of home prices going down. Rental rates going down. Groceries going down. Utilities going down. Insurance going down. Transportation costs going down.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

One way to solve the income problem is to mandate automatic cost of living increases.

Since some say there is no inflation so there is no reason for them to object to wages rising with inflation.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

People aren’t legislated against making more money, if I want an increase in my income, I buy a few more investments and increase my income, not all money has to come from government handouts or a paycheque.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> Canadians have an income problem, not a debt problem.
> 
> https://boomerandecho.com/canadians-have-an-income-problem-not-a-debt-problem/
> 
> ...


Well, if you want to live in Vancouver or Toronto, good luck. But there are plenty of affordable homes for people all across the country.

Owning a house isn't a right. If you can't afford one in your location of choice, then either rent or move elsewhere.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> One way to solve the income problem is to mandate automatic cost of living increases.
> 
> Since some say there is no inflation so there is no reason for them to object to wages rising with inflation.


Your solution for everything is more government control. History has proven that theory has a 100% failure rate.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> Well, if you want to live in Vancouver or Toronto, good luck. But there are plenty of affordable homes for people all across the country.
> 
> Owning a house isn't a right. If you can't afford one in your location of choice, then either rent or move elsewhere.


That isn't a logical solution as every city needs service workers to keep the city functioning. If people can't afford to live there and have to move away, it creates a big problem.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> That isn't a logical solution as every city needs service workers to keep the city functioning. If people can't afford to live there and have to move away, it creates a big problem.


Actually that would solve the problem, wages for those workers would rise there if they can't find people to work.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have had low inflation for the past six or seven years. The debt load has increased substantially over the period. 

Blaming the consumer debt issue on inflation is about the same as blaming it on the tooth fairy.

The person to blame for excess consumer debt is the person looking back at them in the mirror.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Actually that would solve the problem, wages for those workers would rise there if they can't find people to work.


According to the economists that should already be happening due to labor shortages and low unemployment numbers, but it isn't and they don't know why exactly.

Some do blame a structural change in corporate mentality that positions shareholder value and executive compensation much higher than employees or customers. 

Since the recession, it goes against the grain of the current corporate culture to give employees higher wages, rather than pay higher dividends or executive bonuses.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> Since the recession, it goes against the grain of the current corporate culture to give employees higher wages, rather than pay higher dividends or executive bonuses.


Well dividends and/or bonuses won't happen if your company doesn't have employees.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I remember a time when employees were gathered into the meeting area and praised for a fine job of meeting goals and benchmarks. 

There would be company sponsored lunch and perhaps a small appreciation gift. There were congratulations all around.

It all changed and employees would gather to be told....._you did okay, but we need to do a lot better_ and that would be that.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Well dividends and/or bonuses won't happen if your company doesn't have employees.


Or customers.....and sometimes companies do drive themselves right out of business.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

The missing equation to why we haven't hit a recession yet is the lack of wage increases. Until the economy can sustain such a move, then I'm ok with the status quo.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Isn't it interesting that Bernie Sanders has a huge lead over Joe Biden and the others in conservative Iowa of all places ?

Socialism catching on farm country. Who would have thought it possible ?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Sags, like most commies, found it easier to hold out their hands than actually solving the problems personally.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Just a Guy said:


> Sags, like most commies, found it easier to hold out their hands than actually solving the problems personally.


Yep, and the socialist expectation of company sponsored lunches and appreciation gifts, along with congratulations all around. Thank you comrades.

ltr


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> Yep, and the socialist expectation of company sponsored lunches and appreciation gifts, along with congratulations all around. Thank you comrades.
> 
> ltr


Is a totally adversarial concept better ? I don't know......maybe ask the Ontario government and the teachers how that is working out.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Socialism and other radical political and economic ideas were very popular in rural areas way more than 100 years ago. Populism, the Grange, Free Silver, later Social Credit, the New Deal, farmers' Co-ops and so forth. Country and small town people have always been deeply suspicious of big banks, monopolies, trusts, and capitalism in general. It is the coastal sophisticates who are the late comers to these ideas.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Heaven forbid people actually earned more money, just hand it over instead, works well in Russia, Cuba, North Korea, China...

No poor or bread lines there...paradise by comparison.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

sags said:


> ....maybe ask the Ontario government and the teachers how that is working out.


Yep, the Ontario teachers union is on strike, and they tell us it's solely for the children. Well, if it's for the children, why aren't they in the classroom?

ltr


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

What do teachers actually teach anymore? Reading? Nope according to stats Canada literacy in Canada is below 60% and falling. Writing? Nope cursive writing, grammar and spelling are all gone. Arithmetic? Not without a calculator. Self esteem, you bet they all expect high paying jobs, yet can’t even sign their names. 

Well prepared for the real world. 

Leave them on strike, it’s for the good of the children they aren’t teaching anymore


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> Leave them on strike, it’s for the good of the children they aren’t teaching anymore


LOL!


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Just a Guy said:


> What do teachers actually teach anymore? Reading? Nope according to stats Canada literacy in Canada is below 60% and falling. Writing? Nope cursive writing, grammar and spelling are all gone. Arithmetic? Not without a calculator. Self esteem, you bet they all expect high paying jobs, yet can’t even sign their names.


They're teaching my grand-kids about the climate emergency.

ltr


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## potato69 (Mar 21, 2018)

Ok Boomer.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

potato69 said:


> Ok Boomer.


OK Zoomer, your Mom's a boomer................ have some respect.

ltr


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## potato69 (Mar 21, 2018)

Earn some and you'll get it. You don't get it just because you're not dead yet.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

potato69 said:


> Earn some and you'll get it. You don't get it just because you're not dead yet.


And you don’t get much for reading memes for your news

There are at least 20 end of the world events I’ve lived through and I’m not a boomer.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

potato69 said:


> Ok Boomer.


It wasn't funny (or relevant) even the very first time.


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## potato69 (Mar 21, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> And you don’t get much for reading memes for your news
> 
> There are at least 20 end of the world events I’ve lived through and I’m not a boomer.


And you seem to have learned nothing. That’s unfortunate for you.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I learned that the world is full of chicken littles, unfortunately it’s also filled with more fools who still believe them, despite a track record of always being wrong


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I can't speak for other geographical areas but Ontario's education curriculum is far more difficult than it was when I went to school.

Our grandson is learning French and basic algebra in Grade 5. He is learning about the world around him. Our education system produces some world leading doctors and professionals.

Our city is home to a private Japanese speaking high school, large community college, and a world class university with students coming from around the world.

Talking to our grandson is like talking to an adult. He is always asking questions about history, current events, and his personal finances. 

It is easy to bash teachers, but I think they are doing an outstanding job and support their efforts to keep classroom sizes at a level where the kids can learn.

After campaigning and winning the election on a platform of no cuts to the public service, the Ford government is cutting all over the place and hoping nobody notices.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

potato69 said:


> And you seem to have learned nothing. That’s unfortunate for you.


We sure this isn't a bot? potato...famine...communism...Russia?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Bots are programmed to sound intelligent so they are believable...


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

OptsyEagle said:


> I think a person's first credit card should come with the following stipulations:
> 
> 1) all outstanding balances must be paid in full, each month, for the 1st 3 years.
> 2) during that time, no other credit cards can be issued to that person.
> ...


Get off the high horse. There are people who know to use a credit card wisely, and yes, even their first one.
More people should learn to live within their means, true. But not have forced down their throats more canadian socialism.

And ... death to all banksters and their "fractional reserve system" scam.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

like_to_retire said:


> Yep, and the socialist expectation of company sponsored lunches and appreciation gifts, along with congratulations all around. Thank you comrades.
> 
> ltr


And I bet that you personally enjoy being told, all the time, that "you did almost okay, please do better next time" 
Also, where the heck are those DB private pension plans. We always get the short end of the stick - DCBPs as if each individual has the knowledge, and the economies of scale, to fit into the shoes of a ... real pension plan administrator.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> What do teachers actually teach anymore? Reading? Nope according to stats Canada literacy in Canada is below 60% and falling. Writing? Nope cursive writing, grammar and spelling are all gone. Arithmetic? Not without a calculator. Self esteem, you bet they all expect high paying jobs, yet can’t even sign their names.
> 
> Well prepared for the real world.
> 
> Leave them on strike, it’s for the good of the children they aren’t teaching anymore


Couldn't agree with you more. All the "k-12" education in both Canada and U.S. is crap. And strangely enough, the Canadian teachers (as opposed to their US counterparts) are paid royally.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I can't speak for other geographical areas but Ontario's education curriculum is far more difficult than it was when I went to school.
> 
> Our grandson is learning French and basic algebra in Grade 5. He is learning about the world around him. Our education system produces some world leading doctors and professionals.
> 
> ...


Must be nice, I'm in Ontario and the schools are a disaster.
Lots of kids are having trouble with basic reading and math.

I think the education system ends up with world leading experts in spite of the system, not because of it.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Sags can’t understand basic finances like UBI is unaffordable, I pity his grandchild.

He was taught just hold out your hand and demand more, not exactly a strong foundation.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> Must be nice, I'm in Ontario and the schools are a disaster.
> Lots of kids are having trouble with basic reading and math.
> 
> I think the education system ends up with world leading experts in spite of the system, not because of it.


My cousin pulled his 15-year old daughter our of school 3 years ago when her teacher told her that Trump had killed more people than Hitler. In spite of several complaints the teacher is still employed and free to push her agenda on all of her students.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Prairie Guy said:


> My cousin pulled his 15-year old daughter our of school 3 years ago when her teacher told her that Trump had killed more people than Hitler. In spite of several complaints the teacher is still employed and free to push her agenda on all of her students.


Sounds like a good teaching opportunity to me. Time to do a Google search and find out if it is true or not (it's not). This leads to a discussion of why the teacher is lying and what she is trying to pull. And further, to the fact that you can trust nothing they tell you and need to do your own research to come somewhere close to the truth. And in the meantime why you have to go along with their obvious lies if you want to graduate, but you must surely never trust them.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Interesting that the former chairman of psychiatry at Duke University that made this claim can be found by Google.
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/...rump-may-be-responsible-for-many-more-million


It seems that Canadian content isn't Google accessible. 



Cheers


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

And if you need another reason to be skeptical of the education system, convicted murderer and terrorist Omar Khadr will be the keynote speaker at Dalhousie University.


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