# Canada Post domestic postage soared from $0.63 to 0.85 to $1 in 2014



## MoreMiles

This is a 59% increase ($0.63 to 1.00) in one year!

Guess what?! They have quietly eliminated all the "Permanent" stamps from the online store. All the domestic stamps are given 63 cents value now... sneaky, eh? So you cannot even stock up. They used to have this coil of 5000 domestic "P" stamps, designed for business use. It is gone and replaced with 0.63 cent stamps.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/canada-post-to-phase-out-urban-home-mail-delivery-1.2459618


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## liquidfinance

Next the will be following in the foot steps of Royal Mail and become a public company.


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## wendi1

It was only a matter of time. We have been subsidising this service with our taxes for too long.

The postie used to check on my Grandmother if her mail hadn't been taken in from one day to another... guess that's going, too.


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## Butters

not a penny has come from tax payers,

im going to check costco for a roll of 100 P stamps, they might still have them! fingers crossed!


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## Butters

seriously though, if anyone finds a store still selling P stamps, they are going up in value almost 100%

you can put stamps on a package to send parcels

half price parcel shipping would be nice 

let me know which stores may still have

I havent checked staples, but Shoppers drug marts don't have P stamps anymore either


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## fatcat

i don't think the cost increase will happen until march 2014

this had to happen, delivery to clustered mailboxes is 100% more efficient (though certainly not as secure)

those guaranteed pensions are killing the postal service (not to mention automated bill pay, email and text messaging)


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## My Own Advisor

These Canada Post changes are inevitable.


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## the-royal-mail

Issuance of P stamps is suspended until further notice, ie. until after the dust settles on all the price increases next year.


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## MoneyGal

...I actually just discovered a stash of permanent stamps in my house the other day. Felt like I'd won a tiny lottery!


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## MoneyGal

My Own Advisor said:


> These Canada Post changes are inevitable.


http://www.thestar.com/business/201...ns_it_will_need_cash_due_to_pension_woes.html

_Canada Post warns it will need a significant cash infusion by the middle of next year to meet pension payment obligations estimated at $1 billion.

“Based on our current financial projections, we believe we are going to require additional liquidity by mid-next year,” said Canada Post spokesman Jon Hamilton. “We’re talking to the shareholder, the government, about options to address the challenge.”

Hamilton had no specifics about what that might entail, whether it would be increased borrowing or a subsidy, though Hamilton said Canadians have made it clear they don’t support such government subsidy.

The warning about a cash shortfall was tucked inside the corporation’s third quarter earnings, which were released Thursday. The Canada Post segment lost $129 million, before tax, in the third quarter, an improvement from last year’s $161 million, in the same period.

The improvement was attributed to labour savings, as the company adopts changes to delivery methods, including having one carrier deliver both parcels and letters in a small van.

For Canada Post, the obligations of the pension plan are a growing concern, in part due to low interest rates. While the plan has assets with a market value of $17 billion, its pension solvency deficit – the amount needed to meet obligations if it were wound up – is estimated at $5.9 billion as of the end of 2012._


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## HaroldCrump

The real deficit is $6B as of end of 2012 (stated within the body of the article above).
I read another estimate that it will balloon to nearly $8B by the end of this year.

Their compensation program is out of control.


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## MoneyGal

There's an important distinction between a solvency deficit and a current deficit. CP has both. 

Solvency deficit: if the plan was wound up today, this is the size of the deficit. However, so long as the plan is not actually being wound up, this is more of an indicator of pension plan health that can be corrected over time (with investment returns, changes to the plan, and changes in interest rates). 

Current deficit: "We don't have enough money to pay the pension cheques that we expect to go out [by mail? by EFT?] in 2014." 

Both are problems but a current deficit is ... scary.


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## HaroldCrump

Canada Post is also under a Pension Holiday right now, isn't it?
That is probably making the solvency deficit worse, as per MG's definition above.

Federal governments, past and present, use pension holidays as a quick fix band aid to pension problems.
It is the easiest way to kick the can down the road.
All the major crown corps. have had pension holidays, some are still under.
VIA Rail, Air Canada, and of course CP.

No govt. addresses the fundamental problem of over-compensation (i.e. over-compensations w.r.t. revenues of the crown corp).


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## andrewf

Saw a news piece that mentioned the head of CP is named Deepak Chopra. I did a double take.


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## travelgeek

MoreMiles said:


> Guess what?! They have quietly eliminated all the "Permanent" stamps from the online store. All the domestic stamps are given 63 cents value now... sneaky, eh? So you cannot even stock up.


Costco still has them, for now.


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## Butters

travelgeek said:


> Costco still has them, for now.


Woo hoo, I'm going to buy 2 rolls!!!

You know if the stamp goes up to 1 dollar

Our 60-63 cent investment will be worth 1 dollar in 4 months... and we can use stamps to pay for shipping!



Canada Post always loses money in the third quarter, but doubles it profit in the 4th quarter
They are delivering over a million parcels a day now (5 or 6 days in the past month)
They will be fine

(only year of loss in almost 20 years-2011-created by pay equity payout[women making less per hour than men] and the lockout) 

And honestly, cutting service, cutting jobs, increasing stamps(which will in turn loose more cilents)
HOW WILL THAT SOLVE ANYTHING?????

They need to adapt, like other post offices across the world,
They have the largest RETAIL OUTLET COVERAGE IN ALL OF CANADA
They can put ATM's in there, take after the PC Financial model, and make BILLIONS... their outlets hit area especially the reserves who have no BANK IN SIGHT, and they have to go to Direct Cash, and pay 20% of their cheque just to cash it!!!!!

They could put cell phone towers on all their outlets and have the biggest range, and best coverage

In france, they have mail men stop in and check on the health of seniors

There are many changes Canada Post could be doing, but instead cut service to Canadians, and cut hard working jobs... it's not good for Canada


Read up on all the thefts from community mail boxes, seniors won't even be able to go to the end of the street to get their mail


There used to be a time where a person's day wouldn't start, until they saw the mailman... now they are out delivering until 8pm, not because they want to, but because they cut so many jobs and divided the work on the employees who still work there and have families to support

The employees often get denied overtime, consulted in meetings, harassed and bullied over various things... its a toxic enviroment

18 out of 20 employees trained quit within the first year, turnover is huge now

MAIL DOESNT GET DELIVERED ALL THE TIME, if your mail man calls in sick, they try to staff it, but often times they dont have enough people, and mail doesnt get delivered...

Talk about the rural delivery agents on contracts, they get paid peanuts, and their mail service is down the tube now


Canada Post only cares about cutting jobs and screwing over people


Canada Post CEO Deepak Chopra still gets his bonus every year, what is it like 200,000 dollars? even in the 1 year they announced losses, he makes more money than Stephen Harper

All management got bonuses too
http://www.thestar.com/business/201..._7402_employees_despite_financial_losses.html


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## MoneyGal

Ummmmm. Canada Post is funding its *current* pension obligations using a $2.5B line of credit advanced by the federal government, which is calling the line in April 2014. 

Directly from the postie union: http://www.cupw.ca/index.cfm/ci_id/14967/la_id/1

_The Canada Post pension plan has a $6.5 billion solvency deficit, caused in part by the consistently weak interest rate. Canada Post has informed members and the union it will soon max out on the $2.5 billion letter of credit it has been using to fund this deficit. The Conservative government has informed Canada Post that it will not extend a further letter of credit. Therefore, Canada Post will have to start making special payments of $100 million per month out of its operating budget to cover the solvency deficit as of May-June 2014. Given the magnitude of the deficit and required payments, this could eventually render the corporation insolvent._


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## Ihatetaxes

Glad I have moved to 100% e-invoices with my business and we just sent out a few thousand email happy holiday cards (first year to not mail out paper cards). We donated the money we saved to Sick Kids.


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## fatcat

looks like large mailers and those who follow guidelines for efficient mailing will be able to get pricing at 75 cents or even lower so perhaps not as big a hit to large and regular mailers


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## MoreMiles

fatcat said:


> looks like large mailers and those who follow guidelines for efficient mailing will be able to get pricing at 75 cents or even lower so perhaps not as big a hit to large and regular mailers


I think you need one of those postage printing machine with fluorescent pink ink to get that 75 cents rate. By the time you pay for the machine rental and ink cartridge, it's not worth it for most small businesses unless you mail like 1000 letters per month. The stamp coils will be 85 cents. I bought a coil box today, with 1000 stamps, and just saved $250. I will probably need more but the store clerk did not feel comfortable selling me $2000 worth in one shot.


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## Mall Guy

Does this mean I can get rid of the mail box on my house, thereby leaving nowhere for all the flyers and junk mail ???


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## AltaRed

Mall Guy said:


> Does this mean I can get rid of the mail box on my house, thereby leaving nowhere for all the flyers and junk mail ???


The junk mail and flyers currently delivered by your letter carrier will be delivered with your mail in the community box. That is, unless you put a sticker just inside your community box that says 'No unaddressed mail' . I have done this for years and it cuts down on the crap considerably.


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## Plugging Along

Just came back from Costco. They actually were handing out flyers that they had the permanent stamps. They were flying off the shelves


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## FrugalTrader

Just bought a roll from Costco!


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## MoreMiles

We are sure these "Permanent" stamps are grandfathered in domestic rate permanently, hence the name, right? If there is no expiration date, then now is the time to hoard as much as you need for the foreseeable future. If you have a small business and need to mail reports (eg, lawyer, doctor, insurance agent) to your clients on a regular basis, this is a huge difference.


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## MrMatt

I buy a lot of stuff off ebay from China.
I can get the item, including shipping for less than a $1.

It's sad that shipping alone makes doing this type of business uncompetative.


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## Koala

Mall Guy said:


> Does this mean I can get rid of the mail box on my house, thereby leaving nowhere for all the flyers and junk mail ???


I don't have one. When we moved in the house didn't have one, and the pile of flyers we get once a week is often dumped on everyone's step anyway. Some junk mail still goes in the postal box, but not all of it comes from the postal workers.


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## Xoron

Plugging Along said:


> Just came back from Costco. They actually were handing out flyers that they had the permanent stamps. They were flying off the shelves


I'm guessing that it's not a sweet of a deal as you think. My guess is that Canada Post will make the "P" stamps worth 0.63 and you'll have to add additional postage to make it up to a $1. Didn't they say that the P stamps were gone and now they're back to the $ valued stamps?


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## MoreMiles

Xoron said:


> I'm guessing that it's not a sweet of a deal as you think. My guess is that Canada Post will make the "P" stamps worth 0.63 and you'll have to add additional postage to make it up to a $1. Didn't they say that the P stamps were gone and now they're back to the $ valued stamps?


Their product description is a binding contract... so when a "Permanent" stamp is not permanent in domestic value any more. They open themselves up for class action law suit. They also promise a refund of the prevailing domestic rate, either 63 or 85 cents, so its product-owners have nothing to worry.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitch...post-stops-selling-permanent-stamps-1.2461524

So they have actually stopped the sale of all Permanent stamps regardless of the stock level.
The online store products were removed first. The Postal Outlets, including pharmacies, got the memo later that day and were prohibited to sell them. The authorized stamp resellers got the same memo, but a couple of days later.

This is my own personal experience. I went to a local stamp reseller here in GTA after posting this message. I was able to buy 10 rolls yesterday. When I went back this morning asking for more, they told me that they were instructed last night to stop selling them. They may lose their authorized reseller status if they don't comply. I guess those very same stamps will be put back in the market in April, at 85 cents each. For those who got some before they pulled the product, congratulation. Your product is worth more in about 3 months.


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## praire_guy

Why the rush to stock up on p stamps? 

Who actually mails anything these days?


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## fatcat

one would have thought they might have printed a few million rolls and actually _encouraged_ people to buy them
it would give them a much needed quick cash infusion


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## the-royal-mail

$60B worth of goods were shipped from eBay sellers in 2012. That's who "actually mails anything these days". 

Anyone able to find P stamps at today's price will see a significant return on their money once the P value increases next year.


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## brad

Sometimes I wonder if the postal service in the United States is being propped up by Amazon.com, which uses USPS for shipping parcels. Amazon is huge down there, much more so than here (in part because they have about 300 times more products and types of products for sale than Amazon.ca does, although Amazon.ca is starting to catch up a little in that department).


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## SpendLessEarnMore

hopefully I'll get less junk mail after March 1.

But most of my mail comes from banks, utilities and businesses. Can't remember when I ever received a personal mail if any.


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## MoreMiles

SpendLessEarnMore said:


> hopefully I'll get less junk mail after March 1.
> 
> But most of my mail comes from banks, utilities and businesses. Can't remember when I ever received a personal mail if any.


I don't like junk mails either. But that brings in a major part of current revenue to Canada Post at this time. Without them, there is really no mail left, as people don't write personal mails any more and businesses are all switching to e-invoicing and online communication. So Canada Post loves junk mails.

The question is, is it ok for a country not to have ANY postal service these days? With FedEx/UPS and Email, some people would argue Canada Post is no longer needed. If there is not enough business to sustain it, just like Blockbuster and Rogers Video, follow the technology and let them close.


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## fatcat

MoreMiles said:


> With FedEx/UPS and Email, some people would argue Canada Post is no longer needed. If there is not enough business to sustain it, just like Blockbuster and Rogers Video, follow the technology and let them close.


none of the package delivery guys can deliver small items or offer the wide coverage that canadapost does, they can't even come close and a large percentage of the population doesn't even use computers regularly

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...canada-posts-delivery-change/article15891186/


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## Butters

Do you know how many ppl still mail cheques? I see like at least 20 a day. I get close to 1000 letters a day for the 500 houses i deliver. I also deliver about 600 flyers a day which canada post gets 12 cents each and i get 2 of that 12 cents, but no added time value. The only ppl that can afford to mail flyers are pizza and real estate. I also deliver 15 small packages roughly 8 bucks each
And 15 parcels a day roughly 20 each
Now that it's Xmas I'm doing 40 parcels a day 
Plus the magazines

They make lots of money don't kid yourself, they can still afford to pay all management bonuses. 

Yes I am a mail man. And honesty I fell like I make less wages than all you CMF ppl. And it's hard out there. 

For workers it sucks to lose 8000 jobs, but this new method will be significantly reduce injury. 
3 years ago they spent billions of dollars on machines to sort ONLY letters. The made a new method to carry 2 bundles
1 the letters from the machine that we are disciplined for if we touch or try to merge
2 the magazines and other non machineable letters

Injury rates went up 1800%

An arbitrator Burkett deemed the 2 bundle method unsafe 3 years after (stupid courts) everyone's been hurt. Saying it reduces the field of vision. ( FYI his ruling came out like 2 months ago. So this is why the switch to cmb)

My arm is so messed up from holding the mail so retarded. Other guys have carpal tunnel, so many problems. 

So at least the CMB will reduce injuries I'm happy for that
The company will make more money and still be around I'm happy for that

But I'm considering working in the health field. Like the reh fit center in winnipeg. A job i would love, for 9 dollars less an hour. And part time. But after I pay off my house I can afford to slash my wages in half and enjoy life

The supervisors treat us like crap. It's such a toxic place. The only good part was walking outside in the fresh air feeling like your part of the community. Now that they are taking away the fun of the job, it's not worth it to work there anymore imo



People love mail, 63 cents to send anything to Yukon or Nova Scotia. 

Wedding invites
Lots of stuff, it's not going away anytime soon. 

US tax payers pay to have that service
Canada Post is self sufficient. 
It's not going away


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## the-royal-mail

^ *EXCELLENT* post. All the haters should re-read the above. There is a lot of rhetoric and misconception out there on this topic. Even when it comes to electronic payments, a lot of people selling stuff do not want to pay Paypal fees for instance, and they demand that buyers pay them fraudulently with "personal payments" (to avoid fees) or else send a personal cheque or money order in the mail. This is a very common request online. I get several pieces of mail per week and I send a lot of mail as well. To sign up with RBC DI recently I had to print, sign and mail in forms in a $1.34 envelope. I recently sold some items recently and while the payments came via Paypal (I don't mind paying the fees for my convenience and for the buyer's protection) the two items had to be sent by mail. How would this of been possible otherwise? Who wants to pay a $25 courier charge to send a few sheets of paper across the country? As well, a lot of products we all buy in various stores are shipped in and many of those products come via the Royal Mail. Agree with the above a strong, central postal system is essential for the common good. Online shopping as we know it from huge websites like eBay and Amazon would change dramatically without easy access to economical shipping methods offered by the post office.


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## MrMatt

the-royal-mail said:


> $60B worth of goods were shipped from eBay sellers in 2012. That's who "actually mails anything these days".
> 
> Anyone able to find P stamps at today's price will see a significant return on their money once the P value increases next year.


I find it odd that I routinely buy items, shipped from China for around a dollar.
I can't send a letter to China for that price, and for some items, I couldn't even send them as a letter for the price I paid.

Shipping is a major part of online shopping, and Canadians are at a HUGE disadvantage.


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## HaroldCrump

*@SheaButter*, while your post is an admirable and spirited defense of the postal workers, it does not help address the fiscal solvency problems of the corporation.
How do you propose the fiscal problems be addressed?

The federal govt. should completely write off the current LOC in April 2014?
A Canada Post bailout, like the auto sector bailout?
The rate hikes and service cuts not enough? There should be more?

And how do you suppose the $6B pension deficit be addressed? (actually, that number is from the end of 2012, it's closer to $8B now per latest estimates).
Do you expect the tax payers to plunk down $8B to write off that liability (like they did in the UK for The Royal Mail)?
Incidentally, $8B happens to be nearly half the current federal deficit.



SheaButters said:


> The supervisors treat us like crap. It's such a toxic place.


Hmm....that does not reflect well on the whole unions-for-workers, Proletariat-of-the-world-Unite argument.
sags, take note :rolleyes2:



the-royal-mail said:


> How would this of been possible otherwise? Who wants to pay a $25 courier charge to send a few sheets of paper across the country?


But TRM, $25 is indeed the _*true cost*_ of sending those "few sheets of paper across the country".
There is no difference between what you are calling "courier" and Canada Post.

In the case of courier, you are paying directly.
In the case of CP, you are paying indirectly via subsidies, deficits, and implicit govt. guarantees.

There is nothing magical in Canada Post that allows them to deliver something for 63c. which costs a private company $25.
The "magic" is the pixie dust sprinkled by the taxpayers via federal govt. LOC and an $8B pension guarantee.


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## praire_guy

That's not what I meant. 
I rarely ship anything, or send a letter. Not talking about ebay sellers and buyers. 

Nobody sticks two hundred stamps on a parcel so no need to stock up. 

If your that concerned about postage going up you have have much bigger financial problems. IMO


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## Retired Peasant

SheaButters said:


> Do you know how many ppl still mail cheques? I see like at least 20 a day.


Ummm, how do you know?:tongue-new:


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## Retired Peasant

Only 1/3 of Canadians will be affected by this change. I was surprised to read that rural mail delivery (boxes at the end of the driveway in farm country) will not be affected. My father has one, and he'd be just as happy to get delivery twice a week.


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## MoreMiles

In my opinion, unions bring a brainwashed mentality... a unbelievable sense of entitlement in any work environment.

Yes, CP executive may overcharge $500,000 to $1 million in bonus at the top, let's say you have 20 high executives, it's $20 million. Right now, pension deficits is $6,000 million (ie, $6 billion).. if you overpay a postal worker $20,000 per year in comparison with private sector workers, then at 10,000 employees across the country, you are overpaying $200 million per year.
So stop making excuses on how your executives get overpaid, it's the general worker that is the problem.

Postal workers don't know how good they have it. They should work in private sectors with no pension or right to strike, and see it.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...s_strike_deal_despite_lack_of_arbitrator.html

Do people have short memory? Postal workers went on strike in 2012 demanding for more pay... now, they say there is not enough money to pay for those raises.

Yup... keep striking, general public will simply get very negative about CP workers and have no sympathy whatsoever next time you claim how poor your work life is.


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## fatcat

Retired Peasant said:


> Ummm, how do you know?:tongue-new:


because many cheques come still in windowed envelopes that make them easy to spot

i have a lot of respect for the posties who work hard and do a good job but the way we communicate and do business is changing and the numbers just don't add up especially defined benefit plans (which must be honored)

my big concern in cities is how are they going to deal with security at these boxes ? ... if they figure that out i think its a good move overall

the stamp price rise just has to happen if you are losing volume of mail year after year


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## Ihatetaxes

Canada Post just delivered a package to me today. I was shocked to see a postal worker on a Sunday and after 30 cm of snow our road hadn't been plowed yet so he could have just said forget this.


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## Cal

Given Canada Posts current financial situation, who would consider buying them and taking on those financial commitments?


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## HaroldCrump

Cal said:


> Given Canada Posts current financial situation, who would consider buying them and taking on those financial commitments?


The way it would work is that the taxpayers will write off most of the Canada Post debts, and esp. the pension deficits.
Once the balance sheet has been unburdened and relatively cleaned up, some private sector entities (private capital, hedge funds, public corporation, etc.) will agree to buy it up (or buy parts of it).

That is what was done in the UK with the privatization of the Royal Mail.
The David Cameroon administration is claiming the privatization as a success, however, the British tax payers ended up eating the pension liabilities before the IPO.
The UK Royal Mail pension liabilities just prior to the IPO were £37.5B.

In the case of Canada Post, chances are that the tax payers will be shafted with the loss of a fully drawn LOC and $8B in pension deficits.
Even then, only the profitable parts may be sold off and the unprofitable parts retained with the Crown Corp. and continue to burden the tax payers moving forward.

This is what it feels like to the tax-payers...


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## Homerhomer

fatcat said:


> my big concern in cities is how are they going to deal with security at these boxes ? ... if they figure that out i think its a good move overall


We have had that for a long time and they are actually more secure than your mailbox, at the very least they are locked and the built is pretty solid (not sure how difficult it would be for the locks to be broken but I am assuming not that hard though), and they are located where there is a bit of a traffic so being spotted there would be pretty easy.

I actually don't mind that at all, less people walking though my property.


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## AltaRed

fatcat said:


> my big concern in cities is how are they going to deal with security at these boxes ?


I agree with Homerhomer. I've never heard of break-ins at the community boxes. I've felt that my mail delivered via them for many years is more secure than delivery to an open mailbox hanging outside my front door that anyone coming to the door can access. I've had the benefit of both types of service over the years and community boxes are no big deal. Much ado about very little.


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## bgc_fan

fatcat said:


> because many cheques come still in windowed envelopes that make them easy to spot
> 
> i have a lot of respect for the posties who work hard and do a good job but the way we communicate and do business is changing and the numbers just don't add up especially defined benefit plans (which must be honored)
> 
> my big concern in cities is how are they going to deal with security at these boxes ? ... if they figure that out i think its a good move overall
> 
> the stamp price rise just has to happen if you are losing volume of mail year after year


Security is not a big deal, although some bring up possible one-stop shopping for ID fraud, but it is more secure than a regular mailbox.
A bigger issue about urban areas is where to actually place these boxes. There is generally not too much space next to the sidewalk, or real estate to accommodate the amount of boxes required by the population density in some areas.


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## AMABILE

how much is it going to cost to install these
community boxes and all the keys ?


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## SpendLessEarnMore

what if you lost your mailbox key?


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## crazyjackcsa

SpendLessEarnMore said:


> what if you lost your mailbox key?


Seriously? Then you never get mail, ever again. It just sits there, forever and ever.


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## the-royal-mail

Note that there is a theft and security problem with community mailboxes. Of course, the PO doesn't advertise this fact.

Also, those who like these, please supply your address and we will install one of these in your front yard. Enjoy the constant lineup of cars parking and stopping in front of your house along with all the associated flyers and litter.


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## Four Pillars

crazyjackcsa said:


> Seriously? Then you never get mail, ever again. It just sits there, forever and ever.


Please be serious! If you lost the key then you just would move to another house where they haven't lost their mailbox key.

Of course, the lack of your own mailbox key might severely dampen the value of your house when selling, but that's the way it goes.


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## brad

I guess its time to do a photo essay of the charming variety of mailboxes installed on houses and apartments here in Montreal before they disappear. Although I wonder how long it'll take for people to realize that those mailboxes no longer serve a purpose and can be removed? Will people find another use for them, such as filling them with dried flower arrangements?


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## Beaver101

> *bgc_fan*: Security is not a big deal, although some bring up possible one-stop shopping for ID fraud, but it is more secure than a regular mailbox.
> A bigger issue about urban areas is where to actually place these boxes. *There is generally not too much space next to the sidewalk, or real estate to accommodate the amount of boxes required by the population density in some areas. *


 ... apart from vandalism, the perfect gift for graffiti punks also. Hope the bright-head(s) at CP got all this figured out. :rolleyes2:


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## Mechanic

Got a couple of extra rolls of P stamps from Costco on Saturday. Don't do a lot of mailing anymore so they should last a while.


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## SpendLessEarnMore

crazyjackcsa said:


> Seriously? Then you never get mail, ever again. It just sits there, forever and ever.


that's what I thought. Sure with rural community mail boxes it's easy to keep track of everybody's key but in a city of millions how quickly will they be able to find your replacement key after going through the security checks. You can go weeks without mail that might be important to you. 

If that was the case I'd just get a chisel and pry open my mailbox to get to my mail.


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## fatcat

Four Pillars said:


> Please be serious! If you lost the key then you just would move to another house where they haven't lost their mailbox key.
> 
> Of course, the lack of your own mailbox key might severely dampen the value of your house when selling, but that's the way it goes.


i think it will work like this: the house will be $143.89 and the mailbox key $650,000.00


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## kcowan

For 7 months every year, we transfer our mail to a PO box in Laredo Texas and it gets forwarded to a box in Mexico. We do not miss the home delivery in Canada. And once a week is plenty because we have gone electronic with everything we can.

As a bonus, we can get stuff delivered to the Texas box from online retailers in the US.


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## Butters

You guys TOTALLY have it wrong

Letter carriers job is super hard, since we got the new cars, and new workload with said cars, you won't see any of us at the golf courses... instead, winter like this, you'll see us delivering until 8pm, they give us head lamps to finish the job... are you serious?







I would rather do a full marathon 5 days a week! how many of you complainers have done even 1 marathon?
We don't make loads of money, I used to work at Costco, almost the same pay.. You don't even need grade 12 to work there.... more opportunity to move up, they dont have a union

How many of you make more than postal workers? How many of you have been injured at work?


In new area's your right they charge a small fee for the key box



and here's the catcher.... TAX PAYERS HAVE NEVER PAID A PENNY TO POSTAL WORKERS UNLESS YOU BOUGHT STAMPS OR SENT PARCELS

Canada post is self sufficient...

The pension stuff you here is bullcrap, they just use that fund as a line of credit, they dont put in their share of the funds, etc....
They always pay the pension when they need, its another ploy to get you guys upset

Canada post is changing to boxes to STAY SELF SUFFICIENT

In 5 years from now, you will see the sortation of letters get privatized, another 8k jobs cut

and in another 5 years after than, you will see them drop to 3 days a week

They will continue to remove all outlets, until people wait in line for 2 hours to pick up a parcel at the shoppers drug mart 10$ an hour understaffed employee

They will do that so that tax payers do not have to pay in tax to the post office


Service is being cut, good canadian jobs are being lost

Why doesn't Canada Post do what Presidents choice financial does? Throw an ATM in all their outlets
Canada Post has more outlets than any other retail store in Canada
They could put cell phone towers on all their stores and have the largest coverage...

They have some good choices to utilize their network and trust, but instead just cut cut cut


Anyways, all you guys can stop talking about Canada Post in the Frugality Forum....

Go buy a roll of 100 P stamps from Costco if they still have, I got myself 200


----------



## Just a Guy

The obvious question... If it's so bad, and Costco was/is better, why are you doing it? Is someone forcing you to keep your job?


----------



## Butters

Both are equal, I wanted earlier hours, I like being outside. Canada Post is good for now. I have a degree, I'll update it in a couple years and use it to work at a job I love for less money.





http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...payers-needs-a-reality-check/article15981676/


----------



## Just a Guy

Gee, you and I have different definitions of "good". If I don't like something I'm doing, I find a way to change it. I suppose getting injured changed my priorities, but even before, I wouldn't do something that gave me so many complaints...


----------



## james4beach

I was not aware of any of this Canada Post news. I was at the post office today mailing a letter and asked why the permanent stamps disappeared from the shelves... the employee tipped me off about all this Canada Post craziness so I read the news when I went home.

My first reaction: WTF? Ending home delivery? (And yes I do still send/receive postal mail... I'm in my 30s, not an old man.)

This is a service the government is supposed to provide. It's not meant to be profitable any more than the passport office is meant to be profitable.


----------



## james4beach

MoreMiles said:


> Do people have short memory? Postal workers went on strike in 2012 demanding for more pay... now, they say there is not enough money to pay for those raises.


Bless the unions. Bless them for looking out for workers, when nobody else will.

The postal workers union did exactly the right thing in 2012. This current situation proves it. Reality: if the management (i.e. Harper government) wants to cut wages and jobs, which they most certainly do, they're doing it no matter what. The only thing protecting those postal workers was the action of their union.

Had the workers not fought for higher wages, their jobs would have been cut/endangered in any case. At least now they've protected themselves a bit more... certainly much better than taking no union action.

Harper's regime is anti-workers with a focus on lowering wages.


----------



## SpendLessEarnMore

what happens if you finish your route in 4 hours?

I guess my cousin had it easy as a postal mail lady. She would finish her route in 4 hours or less and get paid the full 8 hours. This is in Ontario btw. And she was doing her real estate agent gig on the side. This was 5 years ago but since than she's had 3 kids so no longer working as a mail lady. Is the job getting tougher each year?


----------



## Longwinston

james4beach said:


> I was not aware of any of this Canada Post news. I was at the post office today mailing a letter and asked why the permanent stamps disappeared from the shelves... the employee tipped me off about all this Canada Post craziness so I read the news when I went home.
> 
> My first reaction: WTF? Ending home delivery? (And yes I do still send/receive postal mail... I'm in my 30s, not an old man.)
> 
> This is a service the government is supposed to provide. It's not meant to be profitable any more than the passport office is meant to be profitable.


Ridiculous. Canada Post is a wholly owned government corporation like Petro Canada was. It is not a branch of the government.
Home delivery has ended for 2/3 of the population of Canada already and we manage fine, thank you very much. You will have to walk to get your mail.. The sun will still rise the next day.
Canada Posts pension is almost bankrupt. They have to do something. Canada posts is taking out debt just to service current obligations, clearly not sustainable.


----------



## AltaRed

james4beach said:


> This is a service the government is supposed to provide. It's not meant to be profitable any more than the passport office is meant to be profitable.


Government has no obligation to provide a postal service nor should taxpayers be on the hook for deficits. At most, it should be a not-for-profit monopoly or duopoly. Services should generally be user pay where reasonably practical to do that. I suspect the passport office MAY BE breakeven, i.e. the reason for the fees charged. Canadians who do not travel abroad should not be paying to run the passport office through their taxes.


----------



## james4beach

Well the first question is, is this a service we need in the country (I would say yes).

Canada would be the only G7 country to cut urban home mail delivery. I think that's nuts


----------



## m3s

bgc_fan said:


> A bigger issue about urban areas is where to actually place these boxes. There is generally not too much space next to the sidewalk, or real estate to accommodate the amount of boxes required by the population density in some areas.





the-royal-mail said:


> Also, those who like these, please supply your address and we will install one of these in your front yard. Enjoy the constant lineup of cars parking and stopping in front of your house along with all the associated flyers and litter.





SpendLessEarnMore said:


> that's what I thought. Sure with rural community mail boxes it's easy to keep track of everybody's key but in a city of millions how quickly will they be able to find your replacement key after going through the security checks. You can go weeks without mail that might be important to you.





SheaButters said:


> They will continue to remove all outlets, until people wait in line for 2 hours to pick up a parcel at the shoppers drug mart 10$ an hour understaffed employee


It's as if Canadians are the only people in the world replacing mail with email. Why not look at what others have tried so far to modernize and what could be done even better? Canada Post reminds me of YLO - aware of the internet, but completely inept to adapt at all. There are so many possibilities with the technology out there today. And yet Canada is going with archaic keys?.. Why do we need keys at all?

When I get a parcel in Germany, it goes to an electronic mailbox in a parking lot that is unlocked with an email/smartphone code... I can pick it up on the way home or when I get groceries. Nobody is home to receive parcels anyways. Deutsche Post sold off their post offices long ago and shifted towards e-commerce. I'm sure many other countries have different solutions besides keyed PO boxes..

Put electronic boxes in gas stations or grocery stores etc - win win as it brings customers in, no additional staff required, open 24/7, secure etc etc... Lots of flexibility with these and with smartphones/sms/email they can be tailored to the users preferences and realtime alerts etc. Maybe make a web site and app with preferences for crying out loud. Use the internet..

There is lots of potential to improve e-commerce deliveries. UPS and Fedex are horrid in most of Canada (have to drive far after 3 failed deliveries). Reduce home deliveries. Instead put Canada Post workers on shift to have parcels delivered overnight like in the US. People shop on Sunday in Canada, it's not a sacrilege anymore. Capitalize on modernizing the e-commerce market before someone else does.

I suspect Canada Post will suffer a slow death instead.


----------



## the-royal-mail




----------



## Longwinston

james4beach said:


> Well the first question is, is this a service we need in the country (I would say yes).
> Canada would be the only G7 country to cut urban home mail delivery. I think that's nuts


Well if you would like it still, you can have it. Send via a courier company. They still do home delivery.


----------



## AltaRed

james4beach said:


> Well the first question is, is this a service we need in the country (I would say yes).
> 
> Canada would be the only G7 country to cut urban home mail delivery. I think that's nuts


Over 2/3 of Canadians already get their mail in a form other than home 'front door' service and have for a very long time. Smaller towns never ever had door to door delivery (at least since I was born in the 1940s).


----------



## Four Pillars

AltaRed said:


> Over 2/3 of Canadians already get their mail in a form other than home 'front door' service and have for a very long time. Smaller towns never ever had door to door delivery (at least since I was born in the 1940s).


There you go. Some of the naysayers here seem to think that the group mailbox is a brand new idea or something.


----------



## marina628

My parents in Newfoundland have to drive about 1 mile down the road to go into the post office to open their mail box ,never had door to door delivery and never will.I moved in 2010 and we have to drive up the road to a community box to get our mail so it does not affect us ,trust me folks within a month you guys will get use to going down the street to get the mail and maybe lose a little weight in the process


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## brad

Four Pillars said:


> There you go. Some of the naysayers here seem to think that the group mailbox is a brand new idea or something.


Yeah, and I'm not sure the statement that Canada would be the only G7 country without urban home mail delivery is accurate. We go to France every couple of years and they have the community mailboxes there, at least in all the towns and small cities I've been to. Maybe it's different in Paris; I've been to France about six times now but still haven't set foot in Paris!


----------



## Butters

Canada Post's Deepak Chopra says seniors want exercise from picking up mail.

how insulting


----------



## GoldStone

SheaButters said:


> how insulting


Much less insulting than your union's strike.


----------



## Dmoney

SheaButters said:


> Canada Post's Deepak Chopra says seniors want exercise from picking up mail.
> 
> how insulting


What do seniors do to get groceries? Clothing? Their hair cut? Go to the doctor? Do their banking? 
Is it not plausible that whoever assists them with these day to day tasks can help them get their mail once a week? 
If it is the government's responsibility to ensure that seniors all receive their mail to their door, why isn't government responsible for getting everything else to their door?


----------



## Butters

GoldStone said:


> Much less insulting than your union's strike.


We had a rotating strike, ie. 1 city didnt work, it only affected like 1% of the mail stream... It was like 1 day in Winnipeg, 1 day in Hamilton, etc...

didnt last very long before...

THE CORPORATION LOCKED US OUT, they actually escorted me out of the building, locked the doors and shut her down.

THE GOVERNMENT decided the mail service was an *essential* service and forced us back to work




and DMoney, to say "seniors WANT something..." its just insulting
I am not questioning anything about how they get their mail


----------



## james4beach

I don't agree with that reasoning.

It's hard for many seniors to do all these things. Just because the other 9 things are hard to do, doesn't mean the 10th item might as well become harder too. It just adds to the burden for people with mobility problems. Not to mention the pain of going outside in -20C or -30C to go fetch the mail. Living in Canada isn't like living in Florida


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## james4beach

SheaButters said:


> THE CORPORATION LOCKED US OUT, they actually escorted me out of the building, locked the doors and shut her down.
> 
> THE GOVERNMENT decided the mail service was an *essential* service and forced us back to work


There ya go. It's an essential service. Now suddenly it isn't any more? Oh no wait... it's just management (Harper) using the term loosely as a tool for negotiating wages.

Shea you folks have a good union and I think it's a wonderful thing. The rest of us should be so lucky (but we're not)


----------



## GoldStone

^ The service is essential. Delivering to the door is not.

I get my mail at CMB. It's such a trivial chore. The whole discussion is much ado about nothing.


----------



## AltaRed

james4beach said:


> I It's hard for many seniors to do all these things. Just because the other 9 things are hard to do, doesn't mean the 10th item might as well become harder too. It just adds to the burden for people with mobility problems. Not to mention the pain of going outside in -20C or -30C to go fetch the mail. Living in Canada isn't like living in Florida


Nothing but flimsy excuses. The mail can be retrieved at the same time as running other errands... once or twice a week perhaps. Not only that but one's own mail can be mailed in the convenient slot at the same time. How about that for community service! That is what we all do. Much ado about nothing.


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## Butters

That is true...

I'm more sad that 8000 good canadian jobs are being lost

and the fact that they are going to build the routes to over 1000 houses each, I like sorting my 550 houses, and delivering them

more houses, means more parcels, and more flyers things we aren't given enough time values for

it is still going to take us 10 hours to complete the work when we have 6 sets or more of flyers (i've made it up to 18 sets before) that we get no time value to deliver (only a 5 minute "prep value", but at least we will have energy at the end of the day



Like I said before, 3 years ago in Winnipeg they started this modernization, by cutting all parcel drivers, and giving the letter carriers cars and having one agent do both your mail and parcel

the added a sortation machine, which does about 80% of the letters, and less sorting time, means more time on the street

you still have to sort 20% of letters, and all the magazines

now your forced to deliver 2 bundles of mail (which was deemed unsafe 3 years later by an Arbitrator [and hence the new changes now] ) , and 3 bundles for your 1/3 flyer selection


So, 3 bundles, more houses to deliver... injuries went through the roof

So when the arbitrator demanded Canada post do a full assessment of the 2 bundle delivery method, Canada Post says its unsafe and try to change to CMBs.... CMB and the job cuts aren't final yet

They should just admit they are wrong with the 2 bundle delivery system, allow us to have 1 bundle(safer) and be happy with the thousand job cuts on parcel drivers and less inside workers from technology


So for people like my brother who worked for 10 years, never to be injured at work, in the new system got injured 3 times in the past 2 years doing an unsafe method... twisted ankle, small things, on workers comp only for a couple weeks at a time, making LESS Money on Workers comp... and that ligament he tore, will never be 100%

I think CMBs will be safer, than their stupid 2 bundle system


But, I honestly just wish they gave us like 700 houses, and only cut say 5000 jobs and made our job more fair, more realistic... I don't want to be out delivering until 8pm every monday because the weekend mail

and I also wish they could do something about those 1 dollar items you can buy from china on ebay which always come as signature items... because then we wont be able to safe drop them in the CMB, have to drive to your door, again where we wont be getting full credit for work we must do

We used to be like 72,000 employees, we will be down to 45,000 when this is all over
someone has to pick up that slack... all of our jobs will have almost doubled

i can go on for days, but gtg... have a good night peeps


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## MoreMiles

Yellow Pages and Block Busters also used to have thousands of employees. It's simply technology that eliminated jobs, not greedy executives. You kept talking about it's unfair to carry 2 bundles. I am sorry to tell you it's like hearing a furniture mover complaining it's unfair they have to carry heavy 2 piece sofa. Well, from an outsider point of view, I say you can always quit and do something else. Not everyone has the physical capacity to be an NHL athlete or construction worker. Same thing with carrying postal letters, some people are just too thin or small for it. You don't expect they give you only 100 envelopes, weighing less than 5 pounds only to deliver, do you?


----------



## Nemo2

MoreMiles said:


> Yellow Pages and Block Busters also used to have thousands of employees. It's simply technology that eliminated jobs, not greedy executives. You kept talking about it's unfair to carry 2 bundles. I am sorry to tell you it's like hearing a furniture mover complaining it's unfair they have to carry heavy 2 piece sofa. Well, from an outsider point of view, I say you can always quit and do something else. Not everyone has the physical capacity to be an NHL athlete or construction worker. Same thing with carrying postal letters, some people are just too thin or small for it. You don't expect they give you only 100 envelopes, weighing less than 5 pounds only to deliver, do you?


+1


----------



## PuckiTwo

SheaButters said:


> Canada Post's Deepak Chopra says seniors want exercise from picking up mail. how insulting


Senior here - I don't find it insulting. If people would go out more we wouldn't have so many obese. What a great opportunity to socialize at the community mail box[/QUOTE]



SheaButters said:


> We had a rotating strike, ...............................


That's one too many. We have to stop going on strikes and becoming productive instead - otherwise Canada goes the way of Greece



SheaButters said:


> I'm more sad that 8000 good canadian jobs are being lost.....


I am sure, we will pay for their pensions, health insurance and other perks forever. 



MoreMiles said:


> Well, from an outsider point of view, I say *you can always quit *and do something else.


Agree 100%

*Edit: *I live in a tiny town with mail delivery! Our mailman arrives with TAXI!, does a relative small loop, is finished in 3 hours and then is being picked up by a taxi again. Every day!!! And we all pay for it. It's stupid, 200 metres away is a community mail box for sending mail, a mail box for delivery could be easily added. The towns in the close neighbourhood don't have house delivery - and their seniors manage.

*2nd Edit:* Forgot to mention when he (the mailman) leaves the taxi he first does leg stretches on the nearest lamp post (no kidding). Probably got cramped in the taxi. Then he starts his route.


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## Homerhomer

If I had a job that requires no skills or education, was very well compensated for it, and had a pension nobody in the private sector gets I would be upset too.
But since it's not the case for me and I enjoy my community mail box, as it's been said many times here, much to do about nothing.


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## Retired Peasant

Rural delivery here. I do not need 5 day a week delivery of mail especially when most of it is junk. Once a week would suit me just fine - 80% reduction in staff for rural delivery!


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## Butters

How many times do I have to say this. Canada Post is self sufficient. In fact Canada Post has made money for the government 17 of the past 18 years.

Tax payers have paid 0 dollars for Canada Post workers. 

And will likely never pay.


----------



## Homerhomer

SheaButters said:


> How many times do I have to say this. Canada Post is self sufficient. In fact Canada Post has made money for the government 17 of the past 18 years.
> 
> Tax payers have paid 0 dollars for Canada Post workers.
> 
> And will likely never pay.


Author of this article disagrees with you, the payments from federal government already have been made to cover the pension and where do you think the payments will come from to cover the estimated 6 billion pension deficit?

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/1...lion-in-unfunded-federal-pension-liabilities/


----------



## MoneyGal

I don't understand how anyone can make the argument that Canada Post is self-sufficient when current obligations are being met by debt. http://www.cupw.ca/1/4/6/8/1/index1.shtml


----------



## AltaRed

Because arguments by vested interests do not necessarily contain facts.


----------



## Butters

You guys are blind. Canada post uses the pension as a line of credit. They don't put in their portion etc. they have changed the pension for all new hires, Canada post will be fine. 

They also raised the pension contribution last summer and again this fall. 11% more we pay now. 

Seriously pension will be fine Canada post might look shaky that's what they want you to think they will be fine


The conservative govt is putting us against each other and deleting the middle class. Rich and poor.


----------



## SpIcEz

_(hand wave) These aren't the droids you are looking for!_

Honestly, I'm sorry if I don't take your unreferenced statements as fact (about CP being just fine...).

6 billion dollar deficits, don't just fix themselves.


----------



## HaroldCrump

SheaButters said:


> You guys are blind. Canada post uses the pension as a line of credit. They don't put in their portion etc. they have changed the pension for all new hires


Have you considered the possibility that the pension might actually be _unaffordable_ for Canada Post?
That they can't pay the employer share for the pension perhaps because they simply can't... 



> They also raised the pension contribution last summer and again this fall. 11% more we pay now.


Why aren't you paying 100% of your pension?
Why are you demanding that the tax-payer pay into your pension?
You wanna retire at 52....you pay for it.



> The conservative govt is putting us against each other and deleting the middle class. Rich and poor.


Public sector corporations like yours are increasing the tax burden for the "middle classes".
Harper govt. has, if anything, tried to _reduce_ the tax burden on the middle classes by introducing programs such as TFSA, reducing the GST, and other tax credits.

You truly care about the middle classes...well, stop demanding more handouts from the tax payers and pay 100% into your pensions.
Just like the rest of the workers pay 100% of their RRSP contributions, if any.


----------



## marina628

One of my tenants is a letter carrier for CP ,we met her for a late lunch today at 2pm .She was already done her work for the day and after lunch with us was going xmas shopping ,I think there is room for her and others like her to do more .I know that my incoming mail has cut back significantly and even my spam/flyers are coming to my email as business get smarter and rather send emails than pay per piece to mail to homes.Canyon Creek keeps emailing me $10 coupons that use to be sent to my home 3-4 years ago.


----------



## MoneyGal

marina628 said:


> One of my tenants is a letter carrier for CP ,we met her for a late lunch today at 2pm .She was already done her work for the day and after lunch with us was going xmas shopping ,I think there is room for her and others like her to do more .I know that my incoming mail has cut back significantly and even my spam/flyers are coming to my email as business get smarter and rather send emails than pay per piece to mail to homes.Canyon Creek keeps emailing me $10 coupons that use to be sent to my home 3-4 years ago.


100 million years ago I did a graduate degree with not one but several posties. They were done their daily routes in 3-4 hours, leaving lots of time to study and attend classes, and no need for any pesky funding applications. I also lived in a house owned by posties, I was surrounded by letter carriers for some reason and NOT ONE of those guys (all men in my personal example) put in anything close to a 40-hour week.


----------



## GoldStone

SheaButters said:


> How many times do I have to say this. Canada Post is self sufficient.


Pay attention to what *your own union* has to say about this matter.

*Canada Post Pension Plan: Letter to Members, Fact Sheet and Q&A*

Your union wrote:



> *The problem*
> 
> The Canada Post pension plan has a $6.5 billion solvency deficit, caused in part by the consistently weak interest rate. Canada Post has informed members and the union it will soon max out on the $2.5 billion letter of credit it has been using to fund this deficit. The Conservative government has informed Canada Post that it will not extend a further letter of credit. Therefore, Canada Post will have to start making special payments of $100 million per month out of its operating budget to cover the solvency deficit as of May-June 2014. Given the magnitude of the deficit and required payments, this could eventually render the corporation insolvent.


----------



## Butters

GoldStone said:


> Pay attention to what *your own union* has to say about this matter.
> 
> *Canada Post Pension Plan: Letter to Members, Fact Sheet and Q&A*
> 
> Your union wrote:


That's old news now...

They got an extension, they good until like 2019

Go look before 2008 crash, Canada Post pension was in a surplus

Again... Canada Post takes money out of the pension fund, doesn't match its portion...



The union has been trying to talk to the corporation on long term ways to fix their financials, but Canada Post does not want to talk




I don't even care to defend anything, anymore on this site...

I will admit the job 3 years ago, yes you could finish early

But since the major cities got the little cars, its a different story

If you think the job is easy, go apply



Anywho my last post here..



This is supposed to be about buying Perm Stamps because the prices should be going up....


----------



## fatcat

great article about people shipping packages across the border to the USA in order to save money by having them shipped BACK to canada because canadapost is so expensive: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...ackage-takes-to-be-delivered/article16095271/


----------



## nathan79

fatcat said:


> great article about people shipping packages across the border to the USA in order to save money by having them shipped BACK to canada because canadapost is so expensive: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...ackage-takes-to-be-delivered/article16095271/


As expensive as Canada Post is, they're still cheaper than the likes of UPS and Fedex. Why aren't those companies stepping up to provide a cheaper option?

For receiving parcels, Canada Post can't be beat. If I miss the delivery attempt, the parcel is waiting just down the road at my local post office, rather than a UPS depot 50 km away.


----------



## kcowan

Has everyone in the GTA been getting postal service?


----------



## MoneyGal

Do you mean during the ice storm and its aftermath? We got mail yesterday (during no power) and today (power has been restored)


----------



## fatcat

nathan79 said:


> As expensive as Canada Post is, they're still cheaper than the likes of UPS and Fedex. Why aren't those companies stepping up to provide a cheaper option?
> 
> For receiving parcels, Canada Post can't be beat. If I miss the delivery attempt, the parcel is waiting just down the road at my local post office, rather than a UPS depot 50 km away.


i disagree, in victoria, UPS and fedex will make 3 delivery attempts and will work with you if they are in the field and you call them

purolator makes 1 delivery attempt and if you aren't home they send the package to their office which means i have to drive across town to get it

i wonder when UPS and FEDEX are going to step up and try be more aggressive also


----------



## marina628

UPS left 4 packages outside my house in last couple weeks which surprised me ,one was expensive gift basket with two bottles of wine ,think we got home just in time to make ice wine from the grapes in the basket lol


----------



## sags

The Post Office has a "duty" to deliver the mail, and do so regardless of the weather or profitability of doing so.

Do people really believe that a private corporation would feel the same obligation to customer service?

I expect privatized mail service would be less dependable, more expensive, and the customer service would be as good as with Rogers or Bell..........LOL...............

Some "services" just aren't profitable........nor should we expect they would be.

Art galleries, parks and gardens, museums, community arenas and swimming pools come to mind.


----------



## kcowan

fatcat said:


> purolator makes 1 delivery attempt and if you aren't home they send the package to their office which means i have to drive across town to get it


Yes if they would use the same depot as the Post Office, it would be more convenient for me. I don't know why they are not trying to compete with the other carriers?

As for regular delivery from the PO, we are paying a premium price for 3 days a week now and part time on those days. No wonder they cannot compete!


----------



## Homerhomer

fatcat said:


> i disagree, in victoria, UPS and fedex will make 3 delivery attempts and will work with you if they are in the field and you call them
> 
> purolator makes 1 delivery attempt and if you aren't home they send the package to their office which means i have to drive across town to get it


Well in Ontario they operate under different rules, FedEx absolutely didn't care when I am going to be available to receive a package and gave me an option to drive 60km one way to pick it up, and I am not in the middle of nowhere, what a joke.
Not to mention the exuberant brokerage fees UPS and FedEx has on international packages.

I will take Canada post any day.


----------



## sags

Warren Buffet.........brilliant investor many believe.

A couple of little known facts.........

When he looked at "Sweets" candy as a purchase, he saw an immediate opportunity to raise prices and therefore revenues.

Rather than raise prices "before" the holidays........he raised them immediately after. His reasoning was that people won't remember what the prices were a year later.

When he bought the old GM Diesel plant in London, he made pension guarantee promises......and then sold the company to Caterpillar who closed it.

The point being.......Warren Buffet comes across as a friendly old grandpa..........and he seems a charitable and decent guy.

But, he is a capitalist and they all think the same way.

Squeeze out more profit..........period.

If Canada Post was eliminated or sold to private enterprise...........the new owner would have the same goal.

Fewer employees, less regular service, higher prices............would all be part of the mix.

As they say........be careful of what you ask for.............you just might get it.


----------



## carverman

MoreMiles said:


> This is a 59% increase ($0.63 to 1.00) in one year!
> 
> Guess what?! They have quietly eliminated all the "Permanent" stamps from the online store. All the domestic stamps are given 63 cents value now... sneaky, eh? So you cannot even stock up. They used to have this coil of 5000 domestic "P" stamps, designed for business use. It is gone and replaced with 0.63 cent stamps.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/canada-post-to-phase-out-urban-home-mail-delivery-1.2459618


Blame it on CEO Deepak CHOP-ra. He's an account and only thinks about the bottom line and getting rid of the CUPW union. By gradually eliminating door to door, he will get rid of the letter carriers and continue to operate CP in a profit mode. He's making over $500K a year + bonuses...the bonuses depend on how much profit CP makes.
Of course this will be done on the backs of seniors that can't "get the exercise they need " as Chopra is suggesting, because many have mobility problems and unable to walk the block or so, in below freezing temperatures, ice storms, snow storms and other natural occurrences. 

Chopra wants to continue turning a profit to justify his salary and collect his bonuses. Maybe they are in cahoots with the Harper gov't to force seniors to leave their homes to collect their mail, thereby be exposed to the elements, slip and fall, break bones, then expire faster because the hospitals won't be able to handle them lying around for months on end waiting for broken bones to heal. 
Instead...the health care workers will push a few Morphine pain killer needles into these poor incapacitated seniors to "speed them on their way" and
help out the gov't of NOT having to pay out CPP and OAS pensions for many years of the seniors natural lives.

I have a movie called "Soylent Green" with Charleton Heston. In the plot the futuristic gov't takes all the seniors who are no longer able to contribute
to society and takes them to "processing factories" called "vacation villas". In the movie, bus loads of seniors going into these vacation villas-processing facilities and at the other end trucks are loaded with Soylent green crackers coming out to be distributed to the hungry masses....


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## kcowan

When we moved into our penthouse, we used 1904 as the apartment number because that is the buzzer number, even though it was Ph4. Canada Post made us change it to 4-street address. Then we had a Purolator shipment and they would not deliver to that address. We had to pick the package up at the depot. We were very frustrated given that they are owned by CP.

UPS and FedEx had to problem with the CP address.


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## fraser

I completely understand Canada Post's dilemma. No doubt they could streamline and improve some operations however their real problem is volume.

We get very little mail by post. And we mail virtually nothing-maybe five letters a year. We have moved everything possible to email and we pay electronically. The only thing that comes delivered is Government correspondence (tax, vehicle registration etc) and a few statements that are required to be sent hard copy. We just got back from three weeks of vacation. Our mail slot consisted of five or six statements, one Christmas card, a calendar from Telus, and absolutely piles of junk mail flyers. 

It will only get worse. I applaud Canada Post for starting the discussion even though the timing (at Christmas) stinks. The US postal service is a complete mess-deficits that are skyrocketing and their hands are tied with regard to services, prices, etc. Better to face the music now and make changes. After all, would we rather be facing massive operating deficits for Post Canada for five or six years in the future rather that dealing with it now?


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## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Blame it on CEO Deepak CHOP-ra. He's an account and only thinks about the bottom line and getting rid of the CUPW union. By gradually eliminating door to door, he will get rid of the letter carriers and continue to operate CP in a profit mode. He's making over $500K a year + bonuses...the bonuses depend on how much profit CP makes.
> Of course this will be done on the backs of seniors that can't "*get the exercise they need " as Chopra is suggesting*, because many have mobility problems and unable to walk the block or so, in below freezing temperatures, ice storms, snow storms and other natural occurrences.
> 
> Chopra wants to continue turning a profit to justify his salary and collect his bonuses. *Maybe they are in cahoots with the Harper gov't to force seniors to leave their homes to collect their mail, thereby be exposed to the elements, slip and fall, break bones, then expire faster because the hospitals won't be able to handle them lying around for months on end waiting for broken bones to heal.
> Instead...the health care workers will push a few Morphine pain killer needles into these poor incapacitated seniors to "speed them on their way" and
> help out the gov't of NOT having to pay out CPP and OAS pensions for many years of the seniors natural lives.*


 .. that was an absolute asinined comment made by a "CEO" ... and the stupidest idea of using community mailboxes for a major city such as TO. Can't wait to see how and where they are going to put these massive mailboxes ... on the streets? Hey, hey, hey party-time for vandalism and graffiti!!!! Rent private storefronts? Would that ever save money...LOL. I wonder where is CP planning to allocate Mr. Chopra's :apathy: mailbox? 

With your second comment, I wouldn't be surprised that's being done now in hospitals ... so what has Harper learned from the Senate scandal? :rolleyes2:


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## Brian Weatherdon CFP

Not saying the post office always gets the mail thorugh (!!) but it's worth realizing postage costs less of a day's wage than it did 200 years ago. And thankfully we have so many more choices in how to communicate and send things. My budget for stamps is down at least 60% in the past 3 years. So as another writer mentioned, this truly became inevitable. 
Warm wishes everyone!
BW


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## lb71

I'm sympathetic to those who will lose their jobs at Canada Post. However, this will not be the first or last company forced into change or obsoletion due to changes in technology. 

However, what I find curious is why does it still cost me the same amount to mail a letter across the city as it does to mail it across the country.


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## Cal

In some of the planned developments the mailboxes at the ends of the streets aren't too big at all, and for the most part there is no graffiti. I hope the city of Toronto can do half as good a job with the placement of these mailboxes as they have done in the burbs.


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## Beaver101

Wish the citizens of TO and CP much luck with these community mailboxes. 

But this still does not solve the problem for people with limited mobility (seniors, disabled, sick) in accessing their mail easily or freely as before.


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## lb71

Beaver101 said:


> Wish the citizens of TO and CP much luck with these community mailboxes.
> 
> But this still does not solve the problem for people with limited mobility (seniors, disabled, sick) in accessing their mail easily or freely as before.


Currently, about two thirds of the country receives their mail in these community mailboxes. I have to believe there are a few seniors and disabled people living in those areas. So either (1) CP figured out a solution to help those in need (eg, weekly delivery to their home), or (2) CP has left those in need to find their own solution (eg, have a friend pick up their mail). If the latter, then the one-third will have to suck it up like the rest of the country.


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## bgc_fan

As an aside, I wonder if mailboxes would be removed with the community mailboxes. Considering that there would be much more community mailboxes (where you can drop off mail), it kind of eliminates the need for stand-alone mailboxes.


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## Nemo2

bgc_fan said:


> As an aside, I wonder if mailboxes would be removed with the community mailboxes. Considering that there would be much more community mailboxes (where you can drop off mail), it kind of eliminates the need for stand-alone mailboxes.


Mailboxes? You have mailboxes? We know of only one 'near' us...otherwise we have to go to the drugstore Post Office.


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## AltaRed

bgc_fan said:


> As an aside, I wonder if mailboxes would be removed with the community mailboxes. Considering that there would be much more community mailboxes (where you can drop off mail), it kind of eliminates the need for stand-alone mailboxes.


If you are referring to those red boxes where you can deposit mail, then yes. There will be no need for them any more in residential areas since the community mailboxes already have a slot for depositing items to be mailed.


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## Butters

I definitely think that the number of Street Letter Boxes will be reduced. They have already been reducing them for years.
BUT, there will still be a need to have some in heavy business area's such as down town.
Haven't you seen down town area's where they have 3 red street letter boxes side by side? There is so much mail that it fills up 2 and they need to place a third one.
Some business overflowed my box today, and it isn't even in a business area...

Remember, this isn't set in stone yet! Parliament still has a few more weeks before they are back in the office.
They screwed up big time by advancing all this "modern post" stuff (adding the cars)



In other news, edmonton, the University area // Argyll area
We have probably just over 100 routes

about 7 people quit last week, more to come this week
They have like fresh new guys off the street, supervisors have been going down to Labour Ready handing out applications to join



around 10 routes never went out friday (including mine, i called in sick)

Monday I delivered mail until 8pm because I had so much

19 routes did not get delivered yesterday (monday), they moved a bunch of people off their routes to do the 2 days of mail.

And of course there is still mail just sitting around the office not being delivered... they'll be playing catch up for awhile

The past 2 weekends they have offered saturday double time to deliver routes that haven't gone out

There's so much work, but no one to work it... we are all burnt out... no one wants to work for the 2 tier wage system, and the workload is so high the job is unrealistic... generally 18 out of a class of 20 quit within the first month


If only they could go back to the old system... 3-5 years ago... I NEVER saw mail sitting around being undelivered.... if a carrier got bit by a dog en-route, the other employees would finish his work... things got done, moral was high
Now, wow... I can't even explain how bad moral is

But, I've been keeping quite, getting my route done and not worrying about everything happening... bringing home the monies


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## SpIcEz

SheaButters,

Is this something thats happening localy in your area or accross the country, because I havent heard anything to this extent in Quebec and mail is being delivered quick and on-time here.

Is it possibly a local management problem in Edmonton?

BTW, I do some security contracts in the Labrador Area regularly and work 10 hour days for 19-21 days in a row, and I see some guys working even harder at 12 hour days. We are all very happy to be working and all work hard and bring back the bacon home. I'm sure things are the same in Fort Mc Murray and other mining or energy areas.

I have a hard time when people complain that there is no work, or say there is too much work when I see people flying to no where land to bring back money to the family home and not complain. This isnt directed at you, but it just a general observation lately with those out of work here in Montreal or overworked... it irritates me.


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## the-royal-mail

Enjoy your tidy new mailboxes as we all race to the bottom:


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## lb71

the-royal-mail said:


> Enjoy your tidy new mailboxes as we all race to the bottom:
> 
> View attachment 377


It's unfortunate that so many people feel it's OK to just throw their junk on the ground. 

This could have been prevented by placing a garbage bin next to the mail boxes.


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## Spudd

I saw in the news yesterday that about 50 customers in Thornhill had no mail for about 2 weeks over the holidays. Their mail carrier was on vacation and Canada Post didn't assign anyone to take his place!


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## Homerhomer

lb71 said:


> It's unfortunate that so many people feel it's OK to just throw their junk on the ground.
> 
> This could have been prevented by placing a garbage bin next to the mail boxes.


It could have been prevented by people not being bleeping pigs. I just don't get it, don't they live in the area where their mail box is, do they like to live like pigs, I guess the answer is yes.

Nothing like this happening around my community mailbox, we all take the garbage with us and put it into recycling bin, it doesn't require any effort and very little common sense. I don't think what's pictured is that common, at least I hope not.


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## Butters

happening in Winnipeg too

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/chill-cited-in-postal-delays-239005411.html

In Fort McMurray they make about 300k in parcels or something, and they contracted out their parcel delivery there for 500k... they are taking a loss because everyone else makes more and no one will work for Canada Post starting wage, so they had to find a creative way to pay more

*edit they are hiring Letter Carriers in almost every city... anyone need a job  the training is an easy 2 weeks of pay, after that... good luck!


one thing I want to add to the stamp debate...
when you pay your 63 cents, that ensures that if you wrote the address wrong, Canada Post will return that piece of mail to your door... if your return address isnt on it, they have a top secret area where it goes, and they open it up and try to find where its going


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## Homerhomer

lb71 said:


> Currently, about two thirds of the country receives their mail in these community mailboxes. I have to believe there are a few seniors and disabled people living in those areas. So either (1) CP figured out a solution to help those in need (eg, weekly delivery to their home), or (2) CP has left those in need to find their own solution (eg, have a friend pick up their mail). If the latter, then the one-third will have to suck it up like the rest of the country.


Exactly, how we managed to live with community mailboxes is beyond comprehension ;-)

Much to do about nothing, pages and pages of wasted cyberspace discussing it.


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## AltaRed

Homerhomer said:


> Much to do about nothing, pages and pages of wasted cyberspace discussing it.


Could not say it better myself.


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## Nemo2

Homerhomer said:


> It could have been prevented by people not being bleeping pigs. I just don't get it, don't they live in the area where their mail box is, do they like to live like pigs, I guess the answer is yes.


When I lived on Salt Spring Island I took to carrying a garbage bag around so I could pick up litter when I walked my dog.........soon gave THAT up......someone dumped an entire bag of garbage by the community mailbox.....I took it home and called the Island Trust (local 'government')........bottom line, I had to truck it into town, (no garbage pickup), and I had to pay for it to be hauled away.........decided then that if 'they' wanted to live like pigs I'd let them.


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## Nemo2

Just received a, somewhat heat sensitive, package (ordered online) by mail.......had been monitoring its progress via the online tracking system (which is excellent, just like that used by UPS, et al).......it was scheduled to be delivered tomorrow but being a sceptical individual I checked & rechecked.......suddenly it registered as 'delivered'.....sure enough it's in the mailbox..............Ring the *&^%$ doorbell ferchristsakes!

(Along the same lines a friend in BC advised that a Christmas card was returned.......we live in a small, 50 unit, condo townhouse complex with the same street number and different unit numbers.......my friend had neglected to include the unit number.

Now, my last name is quite rare and we've been getting mail here for 4 1/2 years.......Look up the *&^%$ unit number! Sheesh.)

Give me UPS any day.


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## HaroldCrump

Yes, it is a ghastly sight, people leaving unwanted junk mail on the ground.

But why is Canada Post depositing junk advertising flyers in our mailboxes to begin with?
Is this their bright idea to raise revenues?
If so, why are they losing so much money?

The mailboxes are for delivering addressed mail, not junk advertising flyers.
If they want to increase advertising revenue, they can sell ad space on the mailboxes themselves, just like towns and municipalities sell ad space on bus stops and buses.

What that picture above shows is a response to a stupid action by Canada Post.


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## Four Pillars

HaroldCrump said:


> But why is Canada Post depositing junk advertising flyers in our mailboxes to begin with?


+1

No kidding! This should be illegal. Why do you think they call it 'junk' mail???


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## Xoron

Four Pillars said:


> +1
> 
> No kidding! This should be illegal. Why do you think they call it 'junk' mail???


You know:
https://www.canadapost.ca/cpo/mc/personal/support/helpcentre/receiving/admail_stop.jsf?ssl=1


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## the-royal-mail

LOL @ Harold's comments. Ad mail revenue is HUGE for the Royal Mail. They would be in a much worse position if they were not doing that. They are very aggressive about it and marketers have found it to be more effective than email spam because we are forced to handle it and filter through it to get to our real mail, whatever that may be. A lot of people do not know that you can opt out of this waste of paper by calling the 1800 number and requesting to be removed from the list. Also, put a note on your mailbox with something like "no flyers" or the like. I have done so and now I only get relevant mail.

That said, it took me several signs and phone calls and calling a supervisor before they finally stopped depositing all that junk in my mailbox. I suspect at least some of the discarded admail shown above was by frustrated people. CP won't add garbage cans because they do not want to be responsible for maintaining/emptying them as well as the fire risk. These outdoor mailboxes are not the utopian wonder everyone thinks they are. Practical experience is much different than the official rhetoric spewed by spin doctors.


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## HaroldCrump

There are other ways of increasing revenues, instead of dumping junk advertising inside people's mailboxes.
They can sell adspace on the mailboxes themselves, just like bus stops.
Even on the mail trucks, like buses.
They have premium real estate - they can spin off the real estate into a REIT just like many top Canadian retailers have done, such as Canadian Tire and Bay.

Or, of course, they can reduce cost...


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## Homerhomer

the-royal-mail said:


> These outdoor mailboxes are not the utopian wonder everyone thinks they are. Practical experience is much different than the official rhetoric spewed by spin doctors.


What are you talking about? Millions of people use it for years in this country, and it works well, do you not read anything other than your union propaganda?

Here is the practical experience.
On my way from work I stop by my community mailboxes to pick up mail, there is no garbage around, I take the paper spam with me and deposit into my blue bin. I have less strangers walking through my property, less people walking on the grass. My community mail box is locked so it is slightly safer and having an open one attached to my house.

What doesn't work?


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## Four Pillars

Whether the community boxes work or are the best solution is really irrelevant. CanPo needs to make cuts and this is one of them. 

Not really much room for discussion.


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## Beaver101

Four Pillars said:


> Whether the community boxes work or are the best solution is really irrelevant. *CanPo needs to make cuts and this is one of them. *
> Not really much room for discussion.


 .. how about starting with Mr. Chopra's salary first?


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## Nemo2

We just received a package, (ordered online, and shipped by Canada Post in this instance)..........our doorbell is maybe 1' from our externally mounted mailbox.......is it really asking too much for them to give the bell a quick ring? They don't have to hang around, just press the button and depart.

Service, service, service.......from our experience the couriers have them beat almost every time.


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## Mechanic

After picking up my parcel at the post office and paying the $5 gst and noticing the handling fee had skyrocketed to $9.95 (not sure but I think it was $5.95 last time) The lady and I were talking about increases in rates. I said I should be ok for a while as I still have a couple of rolls of the P stamps and she tells me there is going to be approx 22 cents extra required with them, I think she said effective March. So much for that good idea of stocking up, lol.


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## Beaver101

Mechanic said:


> After picking up my parcel at the post office and paying the $5 gst and noticing the handling fee had skyrocketed to $9.95 (not sure but I think it was $5.95 last time) The lady and I were talking about increases in rates. I said I should be ok for a while as I still have a couple of rolls of the P stamps and *she tells me there is going to be approx 22 cents extra required with them, I think she said effective March*. So much for that good idea of stocking up, lol.


 ... are those P stamps 22c extra now or March? If they are still the old price, would be a good idea to grab a roll or 2 now, if you think you'll be needing them. Why pay more later?


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## underemployedactor

I just received a Christmas card in the mail yesterday, postmarked December 17. Felt like Christmas all over again.


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## Beaver101

Nemo2 said:


> We just received a package, (ordered online, and shipped by Canada Post in this instance)..........our doorbell is maybe 1' from our externally mounted mailbox.......is it really asking too much for them to give the bell a quick ring? They don't have to hang around, just press the button and depart.
> 
> Service, service, service.......from our experience the couriers have them beat almost every time.


 ... you wouldn't happen to have a big dog around? j/k. 

Now sure what's with CP's service lately - scrunched up my magazine subscription through the mail slot and just left the regular-sized letters at the door step. Indications of things to come?


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## Beaver101

^^ LOL! Think of it as early delivery for 2015 Christmas...kidding of course.


----------



## Mechanic

Beaver101 said:


> ... are those P stamps 22c extra now or March? If they are still the old price, would be a good idea to grab a roll or 2 now, if you think you'll be needing them. Why pay more later?


I don't know if they are selling them right now or not. I bought mine in December from Costco, even payed extra tax, as I was in BC at the time. The way she was telling me was that I would have to buy extra stamps to put on mail, in addition to the P stamp. If they are still selling them, then I don't see how they would know what I paid for them, will have to check next time I go in.


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## Mechanic

Maybe it's not a Canada Post charge ? It's a CBSA form, could be their charge. I see them on TV, they like to get their "fees" and there is sure a pile of goods coming in. $10 on each is a nice catch.


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## lb71

Mechanic said:


> ...she tells me there is going to be approx 22 cents extra required with them, I think she said effective March. So much for that good idea of stocking up, lol.


I think they are stuck with accepting permanent stamps without additional payment. According to Canada Post's website:


> So if you buy a PERMANENT stamp today, you can still use it in at any time in the future—no more 1 cent stamps when the postal rates increase.


http://www.canadapost.ca/cpo/mc/personal/productsservices/atoz/permanentstamp.jsf


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## carverman

LOL! As soon as CP announced that the rate was going up on March 1, 2014, all those P stamps that were at my Postal Kiosk were recalled...not available.
Unlike their "snail mail" moniker..they jumped the gun at that one. You would have thought that they would have made the P stamps available to Feb 28..
but of course, this would mean less money in the CP CEO's bonus this year.


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## sbakar

Although the Permanent stamps were very nice, it was hard to see even a while ago how Canada Post could justify their issuance in the face of rising costs.

SNB


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## Beaver101

3 years to re-think of community mailboxes for dense urban areas ... http://www.thestar.com/business/2014/01/29/urban_areas_will_be_last_to_get_community_mailboxes.html ... should be enough time for Mr. Chopra to re-think this brilliant idea .. provided he's still around. Can't wait for CP to seek the affected "customers?" on feedback ... :disgust:


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## Leading Edge Boomer

I am a senior and send hardly any mail . I do as much as I can electronically. Many do, which is why the PO is in trouble.

So a dollar an envelope will have no effect on my bottom line. On top of that I discovered a stash of stamps that I forgot about. I may never have to buy a stamp again.


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## AltaRed

Beaver101 said:


> 3 years to re-think of community mailboxes for dense urban areas ... http://www.thestar.com/business/2014/01/29/urban_areas_will_be_last_to_get_community_mailboxes.html ... should be enough time for Mr. Chopra to re-think this brilliant idea .. provided he's still around. Can't wait for CP to seek the affected "customers?" on feedback ... :disgust:


The process CP proposes is precisely the strategic implmentation I would have done if I was running CP. The most expensive door-to-door deliveries are areas of least density. Many more steps (carriers) per mailing address than dense urban areas. All those expensive, exclusive areas, and postwar suburbs from the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's should be dealt with first. So applying the classic 80/20 rule, start where the hemorrage is the worst and work toward the centre.


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## Beaver101

Leading Edge Boomer said:


> I am a senior and send hardly any mail . I do as much as I can electronically. Many do, which is why the PO is in trouble.
> 
> So a dollar an envelope will have no effect on my bottom line. On top of that I discovered a stash of stamps that I forgot about. I may never have to buy a stamp again.


 ... yes, all the more power to you that you're capable of doing as much mail electronically as you can and forever not having to ever buy a "Canadian" stamp but there are plenty of seniors who very much rely on CP for their direct home mail delivery along with housebound folks (disableds) who could severely be affected. I'm not a senior nor am I disabled but I don't have such a self-centre view in regards to "saving" a few bucks at the expense of customers (and workers) and not where the real fat is.


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## Beaver101

AltaRed said:


> The process CP proposes is precisely the strategic implmentation I would have done if I was running CP. The most expensive door-to-door deliveries are areas of least density. Many more steps (carriers) per mailing address than dense urban areas. All those expensive, exclusive areas, and postwar suburbs from the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's should be dealt with first. So applying the classic 80/20 rule, start where the hemorrage is the worst and work toward the centre.


 ... yes, you would since this century's motto is "pay more and get less"... if this is such a precise strategic implementation to save money, how about Mr. Chopra lead by example and have his salary cut by a measly 20%? I haven't heard about that strategy, why? Also, why does the customer always have to feel the pain or do with less at the end? 

Also, in the event that the change won't be implemented for the urban areas due to a negative backlash, don't ***** why you have to pick up your mail from the corner box and that the urban folks don't or why there are 2 tiers of service.


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## AltaRed

The change will continue in dense urban areas as well. I believe it will never be reversed because it makes no ecoomic sense. 

It is just there is not nearly as much money being lost delivering door to door in dense urban areas (much of the deliveries are to apartment and townhome boxes already anyway) AND CP has to figure out how to place the superboxes most appropriately. Also, why not pace the change with letter carrier retirements as much as possible? Win-win for everyone, especially the taxpayer. Two thirds of Canadians already get their mail from boxes. Let's not sweat the small stuff.

I have had both types of service.... to the door and superboxes over the years. It really is no big deal (I actually prefer superboxes since I can mail my snail mail at the same time).

Door to door mail delivery in Canada was an oxymoron to begin with. That practice was simply a carryover from Britain where it was more efficient to deliver mail door to door with narrow rowhouses with front doors on the street. It never was efficient to continue that practice post-war in Canada particularly when suburbia took off. CP should have made these changes 50 years ago.


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## Butters

_I actually prefer superboxes since I can mail my snail mail at the same time_
Leave it on top of your mail box, most letter carriers like myself will pick it up and mail it for you. I deliver mail to a few businesses, the school gives me letters every day, its not my job to pick up the letters, but I do... my job actually has me going to clear the red box at 5pm, so its all the same


the CEO of Canada Post made a report showing no parcel growth, and losses of 1 billion dollars by 2020.
In the first year Canada Post has already made 300 million more than what his report showed, along with a 11% parcel growth
Watch the NDP video below to see him stick up for us with facts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4HdVtNtuUA

so do you really think if there numbers are already off by 300 mil, that in 6 years they will be accurate?


Canada Post just paid the government 250 million dollars. That money goes back into the system and helps pay for government things (health care) and saves a few dollars for all of us tax payers 


Canada Post is an extremely profitable company.... How many company stocks do you own, where in the past 2 decades they'd only had 1 bad earnings year (due to the lock out[or strike as most of you assume] and a 300 million dollar gender lawsuit[they paid females less money]) and to make the earnings look worse, they block a whole block in downtown vancouver
If you were the government you would have made over 2 billion dollars in dividends... 


Being an employee, I can see why they want to make the changes, half the carriers get injured from trips and falls.... injuries have gone up 1800% since they increased our routes by sorting our letters and added those cars
I would like to see a new study down on all the incoming slips and falls to seniors... but hey, if they break a hip that's just 1 less person the government needs to worry about (yes this is extremely rude, but its the CEO/Gov't saying that not me)


At Canada post, 5 years ago when I started (and longer as my brother would back this) The place was great, mail got delivered every single day... if someone got sick, or something, 3 guys would split his work and the mail went out.
in 2008 there was a huge meeting, canada post paid an expert on privatization, to evaluate the company, he said, the company is fine, leave it the way it is....
not listening to 3-4 years ago they spend 2 billion dollars for machines that ONLY SORT MAIL (which they admit is declining... strange) and added the cars in winnipeg, and the UNSAFE 2 bundle deliver method (machine letters // manually sorted magazines/oversized letters), all the employees walked off the job 1 day.... they all got a 5 day suspension (waived for operations requirements) but that's where things started, injuries went up

Canada post continued to roll this system throughout the country, and instead of saving millions in all the jobs they cut by having machines, and increasing the routes (decreasing carriers) they paid that money out in injuries

Also to note Canada Post settles a labour dispute (with the help of the conservative government) unfairly, and has a 2 tier wage system
Now any time any 25 dollar an hour employee makes any common mistake, he is suspended usually 5 days, and replaced by an 18 dollar an hour employee (or the route is uncovered and mail doesnt get delivered)

An arbitrator (Burkett) 3 years after all the injuries ordered canada post to do a full assessment of the 2 bundle delivery method
said it increased slips, trips and falls mainly because it blocks vision

After the arbitrator decision Canada Post didn't want to roll back all the money they wasted on machines to only sort mail, and now not get the full value for it, as they would start having to hire carriers to sort it so their jobs would be safer....

So Canada Post is choosing to cut service, by turning everything into super boxes, and there is no need to walk unsafely with 2 bundles of mail now!

The conservatives are not only backing this, but they are the ones who have friends that are going to be buying some of the profitable area's of the company (privatization) ... ie delivery to urban area's
and now the unprofitable area's will remain a part of the crown corporation, which WILL LOSE MONEY AND BE SUBSIDED BY TAX PAYERS ie. the delivery of letters to small area's like NWT, yukon, maritimes


You're going to get what happened to CN Rail.... 
And Harper backing them up
http://www2.macleans.ca/2014/01/08/...-safety-record-amid-latest-burning-derailmen/

but truth is, they've had more derailments recently then ever before... only 47 dead, but who cares they are french quebecs...(not my rude comment)

but you know what, the guy at the top of CN Rail is making over 40 million dollars!
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/top-c...rker-s-salary-by-lunchtime-on-jan-2-1.2481494

That's pretty good right? and all you stock holders on here are happy about your 5 thousand dollar gains that stock has made for you... i'd feel bad if one of you were related to one of those quebec'ers killed



So, 4-5 years ago, all my got delivered, canada post was profitable.. turnover very low, moral very high

now, mail sits sometimes for a couple days, service is reduced they can not commit priority items before noon the next day anymore (routes are too long and items never get there in time), employees are punished/hurt, moral all time low, over 50% of new employees quit within the FIRST MONTH, although they are still profitable


they still have 1 more hoop to jump before CMB's start rolling in, but as you can see they aren't waiting for that approval, and have already been hiring CMB installers and getting the ball rolling

my prediction, in 5 years they will make some other bullshit and say they only have to deliver every second day...

then in 5 years from that, they will contract out all routes, contract out various jobs, and basically make it privatized... with maybe the exception of some non-profitable area's in which case they will pour onto the backs of tax payers, and whoever buys the profitable urban delivery, etc will be millionaires making what you make in a year, in 1 day....

tons of good paying canadian jobs gone, lots of injured seniors

at least rick mercer understands...
http://www.carp.ca/2014/01/23/89531/



*edit* anyone got a job for me  I'll need a new one in 10 years!

I have lots more to say, but I work late hours as it is, (got 80 hours overtime on my OWN ROUTE since september )
and i don't feel like wasting more time talking about something none of you care or understand

but if you do talk about Canada Post, please have some knowledge straight before you debate it

and enjoy your expensive letters, greatly reduced service and reduced economy for canadians... all of which is unnecessary but what can you do... conservatives have a majority


----------



## HaroldCrump

SheaButters said:


> Canada Post just paid the government 250 million dollars.


Awesome !
Now when are you guys paying the rest of the $5.9 billion back into the insolvent pension?


----------



## Toronto.gal

SheaButters said:


> I don't even care to defend anything, anymore on this site...Anywho my last post here......


You posted this in 2013.


----------



## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> You posted this in 2013.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcSTYEBEA48 ?


----------



## Butters

HaroldCrump said:


> Awesome !
> Now when are you guys paying the rest of the $5.9 billion back into the insolvent pension?


if they had to pay out the entire pension in 2012 when they did that chart, yes they are only at 75%
...but people die early, and various things like that
after a solid year of market performance, and increased contribution, they are more then fine

PLUS the company doesn't put in their value... i said before, they use it like a line of credit
its fine...

Canada Post has never borrowed a penny from tax payers, nor will they anytime soon


----------



## Four Pillars

Seriously Shea - nobody cares. It's nothing personal, but nobody really wants to hear about anyone's problems at work. 

Take a look around - is anyone else on here complaining about layoffs or whatever at their job?

As TGal quoted so well the other day - if you tell people your problems, 20% don't care and 80% are happy you have them.


----------



## Butters

I'm not complaining about layoffs. 

I'm trying to resolve misconceptions. 

There are no layoffs at Canada post, they simply won't fill jobs as ppl retire or quit. 

In our collective agreement we have job security. 

If you paid attention they said 6-8k jobs lost, but 15k turnover. So they will continue to hire. 


But you're right no one cares.

I just don't like all these misconceptions.


----------



## carverman

SheaButters said:


> Canada Post is an extremely profitable company.... How many company stocks do you own, where in the past 2 decades they'd only had 1 bad earnings year (due to the lock out[or strike as most of you assume] and a 300 million dollar gender lawsuit[they paid females less money]) and to make the earnings look worse, they block a whole block in downtown vancouver
> If you were the government you would have made over 2 billion dollars in dividends...
> 
> *So Canada Post is choosing to cut service, by turning everything into super boxes, and there is no need to walk unsafely with 2 bundles of mail now!*
> and enjoy your expensive letters, greatly reduced service and reduced economy for canadians... all of which is unnecessary but what can you do... conservatives have a majority


Well said. I always thought that this "evolution" within the CP business strategy and practices was to eliminate the Postal Union. Chopra's huge (and unpublished) bonus comes from how much money he can save by chopping services while increasing profits. That's what's it all about now. 
The move to online ordering and parcel delivery has increased 10 fold in the past 5 years, especially when big box stores have special deals with CP and can even offer "free delivery" over a certain dollar value of the order.

With email and paperless bills causing the volume of mail to shrink, CP is now seeing letter delivery as a money losing proposition. Since they have to pay the
union letter carriers respectable wages, (you mentioned $25 an hour), they want to eliminate this by phasing out the letter deliveries to the doorstep. 
The letter carrier increase in injuries from slips and falls, increased CP workman's comp payments, as well as other benefits to letter carriers and related workers cuts into CP profitability margins.

But...OTOH....as Canada's population ages, (and I am one that is over 65 and disabled right now), and winters such as we have experienced this winter, it is very difficult for seniors to walk that block (or two) to the supermailboxes without slipping and falling also. If more of us seniors get injured picking up our mail..the cost of those injuries has to be then passed on to the Provincial health care systems, and that will increase their already rising costs...but this doesn't worry the Feds, because they hope that most of us die off before they have to pay us the CPP/OAS pensions..already raised to age 67 for the new generation of seniors.:rolleyes2:


----------



## carverman

BTW..what is the new postal rate for March 1, as I have to mail a letter after march 1, and so far I only have the 63c stamp. Do I have to buy a book of 37 cent stamps by the end of February? ....or is there a grace period for x days? 

If I mail a letter after March 1 with only on 63c stamp, will CP return the letter with stamped insufficient postage to me?

I hope that my faux pas won't cut into Deepak Chopra's hundred thousand bonus.

EDIT: ok the new postage rate is effective march 31st (April 1st)...85c for a standard letter up to 30grams and 1.20 if it's 31 to 50grams.
Canada Post will make a profit ripping off customers who just happen to be over 30grams, but I suppose if you drop the letter in the maibox
with 85c worth of stamps...that's a (63c + 20c+2 cent stamp), they are not going to weigh it again to see how much you are over..
only if you mail at the postal kiosks.

Nickel and diming at it's finest....thanks Deepak Chopra! Now I have to keep track of the 10c + 20c + 5c+ 2c stamps....as well as the 63c + 85c + 1.00+ (eventually)

and to make matters worse..all the MPs can mail their junk mail to you postage free..now is that right?


----------



## Nemo2

Since, apparently, the (vast) majority of falls sustained by seniors take place _within_ the home, then perhaps having to go outside to the supermailboxes, and thus away from the place of most danger, should be considered life saving rather than threatening?


----------



## carverman

Nemo2 said:


> Since, apparently, the (vast) majority of falls sustained by seniors take place _within_ the home, then perhaps having to go outside to the supermailboxes, and thus away from the place of most danger, should be considered life saving rather than threatening?


I fall inside and outside the home occasionally. I have a power wheelchair upstairs, but still using a walker as long as I can..but just barely now.
Can't get up anymore if I should fall, so provided I don't knock myself out or break any bones, I have to crawl to a chair or sofa to get myself up. 

In 3 seasons, my scooter would take me over to the mailbox...but winter is really bad as the snow banks get higher and the streets are not cleared that 
much on residential streets (cost saving for the city), so I can't use my scooter in the winter months.


----------



## Beaver101

^^ You got a point so according to the Chopra's theory that seniors "need" the exercise and a blast of fresh rich oxygenated cold air during winter and during that point, a slip or fall while trying to retrieve your mail from the super-box is a cause for a lawsuit. Maybe not at CP but if on city's property? Oh, who is going to call the ambulance in the meantime?

Why can't CP just reduce the number of days of delivery plus Chopra's salary for a change to "save" money? Better yet, just get rid of the entire CP corporation from top to bottom and let citizens figure out their own method of delivery. That would save Billions$$$$!


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ^^ You got a point so according to the Chopra's theory that seniors "need" the exercise and a blast of fresh rich oxygenated cold air during winter and during that point, a slip or fall while trying to retrieve your mail from the super-box is a cause for a lawsuit. Maybe not at CP but if on city's property? Oh, who is going to call the ambulance in the meantime?


I suppose if I can even get to the supermailbox in my scooter after a snow storm...(maybe I should just wait and let the mail just pile up in my supermailbox in the winter months?), I may be able to retrieve my mail..but it looks like I will have to depend on a neighbour, once my temporary tenant finds his own place. I'm not looking forward to this!!
Years ago, you could find a young boy that would shovel your walkway and do odd chores for you, but now they are not interested in doing any odd jobs..they just walk around with their hoodies and cell phones texting. 



> Why can't CP just reduce the number of days of delivery plus Chopra's salary for a change to "save" money? Better yet, just get rid of the entire CP corporation from top to bottom and let citizens figure out their own method of delivery. That would save Billions$$$$!


The mail system has to be secure (free of fraud..especially on sensitive mail like government cheques etc..). On rural delivery, they do have contractors to deliver the mail to the mailboxes (those people that are allowed to drive on the wrong side of the road on the shoulder), but in the city, there needs to be more security 
for the mail..at least I think.


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> BTW..what is the new postal rate for March 1, as I have to mail a letter after march 1, and so far I only have the 63c stamp. Do I have to buy a book of 37 cent stamps by the end of February? ....or is there a grace period for x days?
> 
> If I mail a letter after March 1 with only on 63c stamp, will CP return the letter with stamped insufficient postage to me?
> 
> I hope that my faux pas won't cut into Deepak Chopra's hundred thousand bonus.
> 
> EDIT: ok the new postage rate is effective march 31st (April 1st)...85c for a standard letter up to 30grams and 1.20 if it's 31 to 50grams.
> Canada Post will make a profit ripping off customers who just happen to be over 30grams, but I suppose if you drop the letter in the maibox
> with 85c worth of stamps...that's a (63c + 20c+2 cent stamp), they are not going to weigh it again to see how much you are over..
> only if you mail at the postal kiosks.
> 
> Nickel and diming at it's finest....thanks Deepak Chopra! Now I have to keep track of the 10c + 20c + 5c+ 2c stamps....as well as the 63c + 85c + 1.00+ (eventually)


 ... I gather you don't have the "P" stamp but an actual 63c dominated stamp. Just to save yourself the aggravation - stick two 63c stamps and stuff the envelope (you can only stuff so much into a letter-sized envelope though) to make up for the extra weight postage. I'm not sure if this is still available but at one point you could print your own stamps from the CP website - pre-paid and then print - maybe worth a look? 

For the info, today is the last day of this weekend - can get 10% off stamps at Rexall Phamacy (and not sure if there's a limit) but will buy only if it's the "P" version.


----------



## RBull

I'm all for keeping Canada a revenue machine for Canadians. I can't see how anyone can argue against rates rising to reflect the realities of costs today along with declining snail mail volume. Also it makes a lot of sense to have consistent service (super mail boxes) throughout the country. 

Sheabutters, you make Canada Post to be a terrible employer. Sounds simple enough to choose another employer if you are that disgruntled and at odds with your employers actions and vision.


----------



## Nemo2

@ Carverman: While I sympathize, and am perhaps able to empathize to some small degree, with your situation,.......(after being knocked down and run over by a large City of Ottawa truck a number of years ago I spent some time _hors de combat_.....one foot will never be quite the same), I have neighbors older than my 71 years who remain active and who are, and likely will be for some time, quite able to pick up their own mail, (and their own groceries, etc, etc, etc).

But the reality is that no matter what is done, and by whom, someone somewhere will be, or will consider themselves to be, at a disadvantage, and it is economically impossible to cater to everyone's desires, and attempts to do so are often (generally?) cost ineffective*.

(*I see, primarily but not exclusively, government buildings that have, at some considerable expense, instituted wheelchair ramps.......but I notice very few wheelchairs.........in fact it would probably be cost effective to have staff members come _to_ those individual(s) outside the building rather than modify the structures.)


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> I suppose if I can even get to the supermailbox in my scooter after a snow storm...(maybe I should just wait and let the mail just pile up in my supermailbox in the winter months?), I may be able to retrieve my mail..but it looks like I will have to depend on a neighbour, once my temporary tenant finds his own place. I'm not looking forward to this!!
> Years ago, you could find a young boy that would shovel your walkway and do odd chores for you, but now they are not interested in doing any odd jobs..they just walk around with their hoodies and cell phones texting.
> 
> 
> 
> The mail system has to be secure (free of fraud..especially on sensitive mail like government cheques etc..). On rural delivery, they do have contractors to deliver the mail to the mailboxes (those people that are allowed to drive on the wrong side of the road on the shoulder), but in the city, there needs to be more security
> for the mail..at least I think.


 ... my post #174 was meant for Nemo2 but that's okay you responded. 

Let your mail pileup in the supermall box during the winter months? No, I wouldn't want to do that if the mail requires an urgent or time-restricted response - just 1 off many from the top of my head - e.g. property tax bills and no I'm not signing up for "pre-authorized" payments as if I can't wait to depart with my monies and pay for other bills. 

In your case, it's harder since you really need to rely on someone to help you on this, whether a neighbor or a hire. But even I don't, I resent having to have to go to a "supermailbox" of which at this point, I don't know where in downtown Toronto they're going to put all these superboxes ... out on the streets? in a store front, government building? Would creep me out to having to retrieve my mail if it's out in the streets at night, nothing to say how "ugly" they're going to look. 

Ever seen the CP mailboxes where you dump your mail in - they now have their own logos all marked on there - why? Because they were being graffiti and there is nothing, absolutely nothing they can prevent the graffiti so they put their own lovely artwork on there instead so it's all camouflaged ... 

More security of CP like sensitive mail? Not sure how secure they can since I get mail from addresses unknown and sometimes my neighbour's?


----------



## Beaver101

Nemo2 said:


> @ Carverman: While I sympathize, and am perhaps able to empathize to some small degree, with your situation,.......(after being knocked down and run over by a large City of Ottawa truck a number of years ago I spent some time _hors de combat_.....one foot will never be quite the same), I have neighbors older than my 71 years who remain active and who are, and likely will be for some time, quite able to pick up their own mail, (and their own groceries, etc, etc, etc).
> 
> But the reality is that no matter what is done, and by whom, someone somewhere will be, or will consider themselves to be, at a disadvantage, and it is economically impossible to cater to everyone's desires, and attempts to do so are often (generally?) cost ineffective*.
> 
> (*I see, primarily but not exclusively, government buildings that have, at some considerable expense, instituted wheelchair ramps.......but I notice very few wheelchairs.........in fact it would probably be cost effective to have staff members come _to_ those individual(s) outside the building rather than modify the structures.)


 ... let's face it, it's a make-shift project of Mr. Chopra trying to justify his corporate "strategy" aka "humongous" salary .. yes CP can't continue as a money-losing entity but until Mr. Chopra's have his salary cut first before cutting off services to his "customers(?)", will then I believe the super-mailboxes is the way to go. Otherwise Chopra better come up with other ideas of cuts...


----------



## Nemo2

Are we unanimous that it's an "Imperfect World", and likely to remain so in perpetuity? :wink:


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... I gather you don't have the "P" stamp but an actual 63c dominated stamp. Just to save yourself the aggravation - stick two 63c stamps and stuff the envelope (you can only stuff so much into a letter-sized envelope though) to make up for the extra weight postage. * I'm not sure if this is still available but at one point you could print your own stamps from the CP website - pre-paid and then print - maybe worth a look? *


No way, will I give that "fat corporate bum" another 63c of what is left of my already reduced Nortel pension on an envelope. If it takes a bunch of odd looking stamps to make up the correct postage..that's what I will do. 

I'm not about to lose a few cents of what is left of my reduced monthly pension on a corrupt gov't and their minions!
Deepak Chopra (CP) wants us to print our own stamps? I think there were a lot of counterfeit stamps around when this offer was made. I would gladly
print a stamp with his face on it with a Hitler hairdo and mustache. 



> For the info, today is the last day of this weekend - can get 10% off stamps at Rexall Phamacy (and not sure if there's a limit) but will buy only if it's the "P" version.


I doubt that you will find any more of those "P" stamps. "Chop-ra" had all the postal kiosks pull those as soon as the announcement was made last fall.


----------



## carverman

Nemo2 said:


> (*I see, primarily but not exclusively, government buildings that have, at some considerable expense, instituted wheelchair ramps.......but I notice very few wheelchairs.........in fact it would probably be cost effective to have staff members come _to_ those individual(s) outside the building rather than modify the structures.)


I want those greedy "b*st*rds" on Parliament hill and sitting in their Ivory towers at Canada Post place at Confederation heights to deliver my mail to my door in January when it's 22 below.
I paid taxes all my life, now when I'm barely able to get around, corporate and gov't greed is slowly eroding what services we used to have. 
I sympathesize with our veterans too...they fought for Canada, many were injured, now the Harper gov't wants to leave them out in the cold by 
closing all the regional veterans affairs offices and wants to service them from Service Canada kiosks.


----------



## Nemo2

^ And none of this is because our tax generating labor-intensive manufacturing base has eroded; inflated government employee/teachers/etc salaries/pensions are helping to siphon off available funds.......(while some are focused on eliminating oil sands production that would serve to further negatively impact jobs/finances)?


----------



## carverman

Nemo2 said:


> ^ And none of this is because our tax generating labor-intensive manufacturing base has eroded; inflated government employee/teachers/etc salaries/pensions are helping to siphon off available funds.......(while some are focused on eliminating oil sands production that would serve to further negatively impact jobs/finances)?


Yes, you have a point there..but inflation is constant, and eventually it all catches up...that's why our dollar has sunk to the lowest it has been in many years and continues
on it's downward slide...that means of course goods and food will cost more if imported from the US.



> Canada’s dollar had its worst start to a year since at least 1972 amid speculation the central bank may favor cutting interest rates and as a selloff in emerging markets sent investors to the haven of the U.S. dollar.
> 
> The currency weakened past C$1.12 to the greenback for the first time since July 2009 as data showing a fifth month of economic growth failed to stem speculation the Bank of Canada will ease monetary policy. The loonie, as the currency is called, has lost 1.5 percent since the central bank reduced its inflation forecast last week and cited the currency’s strength as a headwind to non-commodity exports.


----------



## AltaRed

It seems to me most of the complaining in this thread is from people who have never experienced using community boxes. Over the past 30 years (or more), I have lived in a variety of homes and places where I have had door delivery sometimes, and community mailbox delivery other times. I am mostly indifferent to which method I prefer, with a slight preference to community mailbox delivery. Most recently, I have picked up my mail from a community mailbox now for about 8 years (two different cities). Pickup is convenient to me and it has been plenty convenient to every neighbour I know, elderly or not.

No one needs to pick up their mail every day. Once a week is plenty for most folk, perhaps twice a week is optimum. Nothing is more time sensitive than that. I pick up my mail 1-3 times a week depending on whether I am walking that direction, or I am driving by on my way home. Elderly neighbours with mobility problems pick up their mail the same way... most often on their way home from being out 1-2 times a week. In the extreme case of bad weather, mail might sit there for a week OR a neighbour picks up the mail for them. 

In other words, I know of no senior/disabled person who is not out of the house at least once a week, either on their own, or driven by a relative or neighbour or taxi for other reasons... and when the mail cannot be picked up on their way home.

I have said before and will repeat for the whiners. I know people who have lived in small towns or rural areas their entire lives and have never had door delivery of mail. Always picked up at the central post office. They have done just fine for generations. 

I will repeat.... much ado about nothing.


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> No way, will I give that "fat corporate bum" another 63c of what is left of my already reduced Nortel pension on an envelope. If it takes a bunch of odd looking stamps to make up the correct postage..that's what I will do.
> 
> I'm not about to lose a few cents of what is left of my reduced monthly pension on a corrupt gov't and their minions!
> Deepak Chopra (CP) wants us to print our own stamps? I think there were a lot of counterfeit stamps around when this offer was made. I would gladly
> print a stamp with his face on it with a Hitler hairdo and mustache. *LOL! :encouragement:*
> 
> I doubt that you will find any more of those "P" stamps. "Chop-ra" had all the postal kiosks pull those as soon as the announcement was made last fall.


 ... just got back from Rexall and lucky me, managed to snag 3 packs! Staff had to look all over the store for these (they had plenty of the 63c denomination ones but like you said, these are either either gone or going fast.) If you want, pm me and I'll send you a pack.

Too bad CP hasn't put in the supermailbox otherwise I have a potential good reason to send them a lawsuit as I fell enroute getting these stamps - thank god, no broken bone but what an icy mess out there today, damn ... an extra load for the laundry.


----------



## Beaver101

^^ *AltaRed: *Yes, much ado about nothing so what're you doing in this thread if you're so satisfied with the service you're getting? :rolleyes2:


----------



## RBull

AltaRed said:


> It seems to me most of the complaining in this thread is from people who have never experienced using community boxes. Over the past 30 years (or more), I have lived in a variety of homes and places where I have had door delivery sometimes, and community mailbox delivery other times. I am mostly indifferent to which method I prefer, with a slight preference to community mailbox delivery. Most recently, I have picked up my mail from a community mailbox now for about 8 years (two different cities). Pickup is convenient to me and it has been plenty convenient to every neighbour I know, elderly or not.
> 
> No one needs to pick up their mail every day. Once a week is plenty for most folk, perhaps twice a week is optimum. Nothing is more time sensitive than that. I pick up my mail 1-3 times a week depending on whether I am walking that direction, or I am driving by on my way home. Elderly neighbours with mobility problems pick up their mail the same way... most often on their way home from being out 1-2 times a week. In the extreme case of bad weather, mail might sit there for a week OR a neighbour picks up the mail for them.
> 
> In other words, I know of no senior/disabled person who is not out of the house at least once a week, either on their own, or driven by a relative or neighbour or taxi for other reasons... and when the mail cannot be picked up on their way home.
> 
> I have said before and will repeat for the whiners. I know people who have lived in small towns or rural areas their entire lives and have never had door delivery of mail. Always picked up at the central post office. They have done just fine for generations.
> 
> I will repeat.... much ado about nothing.


100% agree. Had home delivery for approx 10 years. After that a community or super mail box. I have witnessed the exact thing you mention with others in the same situation. No biggie whatsoever. Why aren't the whiners fighting for those who don't have home delivery? Are they the only ones important enough to deserve it?


----------



## Beaver101

^ Because you as a non-whiner says "no biggie whatsoever" ... so you be a sheeple and just take it. And why are you whining now about "others" as being so important enough to deserve it? Does it bother you that the now-whiners don't want this service taken away? You had your chance to whine and you chose not too so too bad. 

And soon to be a 3rd tier of service all introduced to you by your competent strategist CEO Chopra...:rolleyes2:


----------



## SpIcEz

Beaver101

How about you have some respect for others giving their opinions. Who made you king of the hill and sole owner of the "truth" and "righteous" comments?

People who are happy with their service are coming in here and commenting because CP is a crown corporation and if its loosing money and those like you want to keep a loosing business giving the same services for same price, who do you think will have to pay for all that? That's right, every tax payer in Canada.

So you have your opinion and others have theirs, have a debate... but good god man, learn to respect others.


----------



## AltaRed

Beaver101 said:


> ^^ *AltaRed: *Yes, much ado about nothing so what're you doing in this thread if you're so satisfied with the service you're getting? :rolleyes2:


Someone has to counterbalance/set the record straight from all the fearmongering from the entitlement crowd.... Touche!


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> Too bad CP hasn't put in the supermailbox otherwise I have a potential good reason to send them a lawsuit as *I fell enroute getting these stamps* - thank god, no broken bone but what an icy mess out there today, damn ... an extra load for the laundry.


Why o Why, did you decide to negotiate icy side walks for couple packs of "P" stamps? Is your health and bones not more important than the money saved???
umm.lets see ..63c "P" stamps x10 = $6.30 x 2 = $12.60 + Hst.
If you had ordinary 63 cent stamps like I have..that's the same amount + 22c per envelope mailed after march 31st.to stick next my 63 cent stamp at the new rate of 85c.
I sent my temporary tenant out to the CP kiosk yesterday for some of these additional stamps because with the propoganda from CP on the increased mail rates
85 to $1, I decided to stockpile on some stamps.

so we got: 10 x 25 ($2.50) these have some kind of moth on them
10 x 10 ($1.00) looks like a dragon fly on these
10x 2 c (0.20) looks like the monarch butterfly caterpillar on these

This combo ($3.70 + tax) should last me for at least 10 mailings at 85 (63+ 10 + 10 + 2) and eventually later on $1 postage 63 + 25 + 10 + 2

Yes, I know there is a lot more licking, since these are not self sticking...and you have to allow for the extra stamps "foot print" on the envelope for 4 stamps instead of one "P" ..but 
for $3.70+ .48 ($4.18). (ok $8.36)...you risked falling and seriously hurting yourself....was it worth it?


----------



## RBull

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Because you as a non-whiner says "no biggie whatsoever" ... so you be a sheeple and just take it. And why are you whining now about "others" as being so important enough to deserve it? Does it bother you that the now-whiners don't want this service taken away? You had your chance to whine and you chose not too so too bad.
> 
> And soon to be a 3rd tier of service all introduced to you by your competent strategist CEO Chopra...:rolleyes2:


First off, making a clear decision to not whine and agree with the decision of the management of CP and the government does not make me a sheeple. It makes perfect sense.

If you actually read my statement carefully it was in no way whining. I asked legitimate questions which you ignored and instead attempted to portray it as whining. 

Its worth noting that in the next line you say I had my chance to whine and didn't take it. That is a contradiction and it's apparent you don't know what you are talking about. 

I don't care what the whiners say because i know they are not going to get their way anyhow, and I believe this is the right thing. 

Chopra isn't "my" competent strategist. Chopra is Canada Posts CEO. I'm perfectly fine with the service at CP, and like I said earlier I'm all for making it a cash cow. 

You can disagree with my position all you want. Just don't go around distorting what is being said.

BTW, too is spelled to. Your credibility around here certainly hasn't risen any further with this kind of post.


----------



## Beaver101

SpIcEz said:


> Beaver101
> 
> How about you have some respect for others giving their opinions. Who made you king of the hill and sole owner of the "truth" and "righteous" comments?
> 
> People who are happy with their service are coming in here and commenting because CP is a crown corporation and if its loosing money and those like you want to keep a loosing business giving the same services for same price, who do you think will have to pay for all that? That's right, every tax payer in Canada.
> 
> So you have your opinion and others have theirs, have a debate... but good god man, learn to respect others.


 ... yes, learn to respect others including "whiners" so please have another look at the title of the thread. Does that sound like a thread for happy and satisfied CP posters/customers? 

And nobody made me king of the hill and sole owner of the "truth" and "righteous" comments -that's your perception.

Oh, yes no doubt, taxpayers like you and me and every other CP customers can continue keeping up with its CEO's performance bonus for "pay more and get less".


----------



## Beaver101

AltaRed said:


> Someone has to counterbalance/set the record straight from all the fearmongering from the entitlement crowd.... Touche!


 ... so what is so "fearmongering" about this whole issue? So seniors are part of the entitlement crowd too? Guess this change has no effect on you or anyone you know of, thus, all is good with much ado nothing to do for you.


----------



## Beaver101

RBull said:


> First off, making a clear decision to not whine and agree with the decision of the management of CP and the government does not make me a sheeple. It makes perfect sense.
> 
> If you actually read my statement carefully it was in no way whining. I asked legitimate questions which you ignored and instead attempted to portray it as whining.
> 
> Its worth noting that in the next line you say I had my chance to whine and didn't take it. That is a contradiction and it's apparent you don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> I don't care what the whiners say because i know they are not going to get their way anyhow, and I believe this is the right thing.
> 
> Chopra isn't "my" competent strategist. Chopra is Canada Posts CEO. I'm perfectly fine with the service at CP, and like I said earlier I'm all for making it a cash cow.
> 
> You can disagree with my position all you want. Just don't go around distorting what is being said.
> 
> BTW, too is spelled to. Your credibility around here certainly hasn't risen any further with this kind of post.


 ... no, I don't know what I'm talking about and you know what you're talking about since your position is that you "agree with the decision of the management of CP and* the government *... since it makes perfect sense" and the fact that "I don't care what the whiners say because i know they are not going to get their way anyhow, and I believe *this is the right thing*." for "making it a *cash cow*." of which you're all for ... okay, let's see in a few years. 

And no I didn't distort what you were saying with "are others being so important enough to deserve it?" as whining - if that's not whining , that heck wasn't a compliment. 

So to is spelled too, at least I didn't put a "2" there. And you have the most credibility here with "I'm perfectly fine with the service at CP". 
Good for you. In closing, we can agree do disagree.


----------



## OurBigFatWallet

If you have any permanent stamps make sure you save them. They're only going up in price. Unfortunately Costco to sell a roll of 100 for $60 but they got pulled from shelves


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Why o Why, did you decide to negotiate icy side walks for couple packs of "P" stamps? Is your health and bones not more important than the money saved??? ...you risked falling and seriously hurting yourself....was it worth it?


 ... yes, it was worth it - hey it's still a few bucks saved. I didn't expect to fall - it was an accident and I'm fine but I don't think I would if I was a senior. Okay, I see you got this your postage shortage taken care of ... hmm, those lower denomination stamps sound (moth, butterflies?) sound interesting ... will check them out at a CP kiosk when opened.


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> Okay, I see you got this your postage shortage taken care of ... hmm, those lower denomination stamps sound (moth, butterflies?) sound interesting ... will check them out at a CP kiosk when opened.


Yes, I was kind of surprised as well..they look kinda "cheap" (pun intended) for what used to be nice stamps in the the heyday of the Canadian Postal service.
These were stamps worth collection and philatelists use to prize them and in some cases they were worth a lot of money over the years..but now..
we got the Canada Purse era with Deepak running things...instead of 10c butterflies and 2c worms..they should have him on a $1.00 stamp..with
the new motto.."less for you is more for me"











> Due to Deepak Chopra losses at Canada Post, all Canadian astronauts will now have to walk to the International Space Station





> The good news for seniors, however, is that this is only the first of several government changes to ensure they get their health.
> Public transit stations will now be located no less than one kilometre from any residential area and all family doctor offices are now accessible only via rope ladder.
> Dear seniors, you are welcome. Sincerely, Canada.


----------



## westcoast

*Thoughts on Canada Post*

I have used an Community box at the end of my street for 25 years and it works well. I do wonder about the feasibility of installing the same kind of boxes in urban areas. I do not know where so many boxes will be installed. I am not sure, in a city like Vancouver were land prices are so high, how Canada Post will find the property to install boxes. I am also sure the city will not give up valuable property for free.

To save money I would much prefer that Canada Post go to delivery three days a week.

I have a hobby that involves the mailing of packages and parcels. The cost of sending a parcel is high and going higher to the point were I am considering not bothering. I am sure others feel the same way, with the result that Canada Post will receive less money.

It is indisputable that mail volume (letter mail) is down and that is unlikely to change. The future money is in the delivery of parcels and packages from on-line shopping. However, I do not think Canada Post is capturing enough of this market - probably because they charge so much. I think they need to go after this market by giving discounts to the retailers. If a mailing a package normally costs $12 and Canada charges the retailers $4 they should be able to make a profit, as they have the network, the outlets, trucks, sorting facilities in place. They should act more like the airlines that fill the seats with lower prices, rather than get zero $$ for an empty seat. Canada Post must have unused capacity in a network that already exists. Fill the trucks and take the $4 rather than zero dollars.


----------



## RBull

Beaver101 said:


> ... no, I don't know what I'm talking about and you know what you're talking about since your position is that you "agree with the decision of the management of CP and* the government *... since it makes perfect sense" and the fact that "I don't care what the whiners say because i know they are not going to get their way anyhow, and I believe *this is the right thing*." for "making it a *cash cow*." of which you're all for ... okay, let's see in a few years.
> 
> And no I didn't distort what you were saying with "are others being so important enough to deserve it?" as whining - if that's not whining , that heck wasn't a compliment.
> 
> So to is spelled too, at least I didn't put a "2" there. And you have the most credibility here with "I'm perfectly fine with the service at CP".
> Good for you. In closing, we can agree do disagree.


I am looking forward to Canada Post positioning itself to run more efficiently and preparing for changes with lower snail mail demand, and charging more for it. 

When I stated you did not know what you were talking about it referenced the obvious contradiction in that specific statement and not everything you had said. 

As to you not distorting what I said: you have quote marks in your last post that aren't what I said....this is what I actually said: "Why aren't the whiners fighting for those who don't have home delivery". "Are they the only ones important enough to deserve it".
These are legitimate questions aimed at getting at the exclusive motives of the whiners. You have chosen to dodge the questions and completely missed the point I was making with them. I was actually questioning those who believe they should retain home service why they seem to be silent on the fact the majority of the country hasn't had this service for many years. If you see this as whining so be it. It isn't, as I'm perfectly happy with my rural box service and have been rather entertained by this coming change of affairs.

Forget it on the spelling. It's also obvious you aren't going to get it.


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> yes, i was kind of surprised as well..they look kinda "cheap" (pun intended) for what used to be nice stamps in the the heyday of the canadian postal service.
> These were stamps worth collection and philatelists use to prize them and in some cases they were worth a lot of money over the years..but now..
> We got the canada purse era with deepak running things...instead of 10c butterflies and 2c worms..*they should have him on a $1.00 stamp..with the new motto.."less for you is more for me"*
> 
> View attachment 410


 ... LOL! :highly_amused: And the next day after you purchase one, CP will require you to put an additional 50c stamp to send a letter across town ... hey, gotta keep up with the yearly performance "bonus".


----------



## Beaver101

RBull said:


> I am looking forward to Canada Post positioning itself to run more efficiently and preparing for changes with lower snail mail demand, and charging more for it.
> 
> When I stated you did not know what you were talking about it referenced the obvious contradiction in that specific statement and not everything you had said.
> 
> As to you not distorting what I said: you have quote marks in your last post that aren't what I said....this is what I actually said: "Why aren't the whiners fighting for those who don't have home delivery". "Are they the only ones important enough to deserve it".
> These are legitimate questions aimed at getting at the exclusive motives of the whiners. You have chosen to dodge the questions and completely missed the point I was making with them. I was actually questioning those who believe they should retain home service why they seem to be silent on the fact the majority of the country hasn't had this service for many years. If you see this as whining so be it. It isn't, as I'm perfectly happy with my rural box service and have been rather entertained by this coming change of affairs.
> 
> Forget it on the spelling. It's also obvious you aren't going to get it.


 ... no I don't care to get it as your post is pretty convoluted too.


----------



## OurBigFatWallet

Did I hear correctly that UPS is owned by Canada post?


----------



## Nemo2

OurBigFatWallet said:


> Did I hear correctly that UPS is owned by Canada post?


Purolator.


----------



## RBull

Beaver101 said:


> ... no I don't care to get it as your post is pretty convoluted too.


Twist away. My post is very straight forward. 

The statement about you not getting it relates to your spelling. 

If you can't provide any meaningful response to my posts why don't you just leave them alone? I'm done wasting my time explaining my ideas to someone who obviously isn't interested in engaging in a sensible communication.


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... LOL! :highly_amused: And *the next day after you purchase one, CP will require you to put an additional 50c stamp to send a letter across town* ... hey, gotta keep up with the yearly performance "bonus".


I wouldn't be surprised if that could happen. In the US, they do put famous personalities on certain issues of their US postage. 
In Canada, these days, just about anything can end up on a stamp..maybe...including the CEO of the new "Evil Empire".
The CEO of CP makes over $500K a year + bonuses based on performance (in CP's case...it's what can be chopped in terms of letter carriers and their pension benefits. 



> Chopra is paid between $440,900 and $518,600 a year in salary, *the highest range for governor in council cabinet appointments*. Canada Post’s 2012 annual report says the board of directors and senior executives received a combined $10 million in total salary, short-term benefits and retirement benefits. Another $2 million was paid out in “termination benefits.” Chopra wouldn’t specify, however, about what his total compensation was in salary and other benefits.
> Canada Post is hoping its five-point plan for overhauling operations will save the company between $700 million and $900 million a year, once fully implemented.


CP wants to save between $700 million and $900 million a year? Chop Chopra and all those other overpaid executives at CP. 

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/12/1...te-your-friendly-neighbourhood-mail-deliverer


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if that could happen. In the US, they do put famous personalities on certain issues of their US postage.
> In Canada, these days, just about anything can end up on a stamp..maybe...including the CEO of the new "Evil Empire".
> The CEO of CP makes over $500K a year + bonuses based on performance (in CP's case...it's what can be chopped in terms of letter carriers and their pension benefits.
> 
> CP wants to save between $700 million and $900 million a year? Chop Chopra and all those other overpaid executives at CP.
> 
> http://www.torontosun.com/2013/12/1...te-your-friendly-neighbourhood-mail-deliverer


 ... unfortunately, that's not going to happen if there are enough supporters that agrees with Chopra's brilliant "strategist's" plan to eliminate letter carriers entirely and replace with them with those super-mailboxes to "save" money for their annual fat bonuses and salaries and the perks alike. It's going to cost CP heck alot more to install and maintain those super-mailboxes especially in major cities, never mind about "thinking" about their customers' needs. 

Just think of e-Health and the too-many-to-count boondoggle spendings ...:rolleyes2:


----------



## fraser

We get very little surface mail, not counting junk mail. We prefer to get our mail electronically. Apparently this is true for a majority of Canadians.

And this is the trend in Canada. The salaries of Canada Post executives may or may not be in line with industry but this is a red herring. The real issue is that the business of the post office has, and will change dramatically.

The real question is do we want this to continue to be a user pay system or do we want it subsidized by tax revenues. And if it is the latter, how much of a deficit funding is acceptable?


----------



## Nemo2

^ +1


----------



## Beaver101

*Canada Post targets super-mailbox thieves with bait mail* http://ca.news.yahoo.com/canada-post-targets-super-mailbox-thieves-bait-mail-131714291.html 



> Canada Post says it is expanding the use of so-called bait mail in hopes of stopping mail theft in problem areas, such as Surrey, B.C.
> 
> The Crown corporation says problems with community mailboxes, also known as super mailboxes, are rare across the country, but acknowledges incidents of theft and vandalism are troubling in parts of B.C.'s Metro Vancouver and Fraser Valley. ...


lol ... another brilliant strategy in saving customers' money. :rolleyes2:


----------



## Beaver101

*Super mailbox theft means residents drive 20-km for pick-up* http://ca.news.yahoo.com/super-mailbox-theft-means-residents-drive-20-km-135746696.html


> A resident in Surrey, B.C., says his mail delivery has been suspended and he has had to drive to pick up his mail after his community mailbox was broken into more than a week ago.
> 
> Bob Stirling has been getting his mail from a community mailbox, or super boxmail, for more than a decade without any problems. Earlier this month, however, his box was targeted by thieves.
> 
> A few days later, he and his neighbours received a handwritten note from Canada Post telling them they had to pick up their mail in Cloverdale — nearly 20 kilometres away.
> 
> "What if you had to take a bus that far? That would be a half-day process," said Stirling.
> 
> To make matters worse, Stirling says Canada Post will not tell him or his neighbours if they have actually received any mail, or when their regular mail delivery will resume. ...


 ... guess this is just the beginning ... more to come, stay tuned. :frown:


----------



## HaroldCrump

Canada Post new rate hike effective from today:

_The cost of mailing a first-class letter within Canada went up to 85 cents today — a 35 per cent jump from the 63 cents it cost yesterday.
But the 85-cent rate is only available if stamps are purchased in a pack. If you want to buy just one stamp, it will cost $1._

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/cost-to-mail-a-letter-soars-35-1.2592565

In other news:
*Canada Post worker accused of stealing from Burlington depot*

_A former Canada Post employee is facing theft charges after items disappeared from a Canada Post depot in Burlington.
Halton police say parcels were stolen from the depot on Guelph Line near Upper Middle Road, but did not say when the items were stolen._


----------



## Butters

HaroldCrump said:


> Canada Post new rate hike effective from today:
> 
> _The cost of mailing a first-class letter within Canada went up to 85 cents today — a 35 per cent jump from the 63 cents it cost yesterday.
> But the 85-cent rate is only available if stamps are purchased in a pack. If you want to buy just one stamp, it will cost $1._
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/cost-to-mail-a-letter-soars-35-1.2592565
> 
> In other news:
> *Canada Post worker accused of stealing from Burlington depot*
> 
> _A former Canada Post employee is facing theft charges after items disappeared from a Canada Post depot in Burlington.
> Halton police say parcels were stolen from the depot on Guelph Line near Upper Middle Road, but did not say when the items were stolen._



There is still a 30 day grace period

Businesses have options for 75cents or lower


----------



## carverman

SheaButters said:


> There is still a 30 day grace period


Didn't hear about the 30 day grace period. I have to mail in a home insurance policy cancellation next week, so  I was about to add another 22cents in lickem stamps with the 63cent stamp.
But as long as they still deliver for 63 cents to April 30th, I refuse to pay CP the extra postage as they are playing games with people that have to mail envelopes already..
$1 if you buy the stamp by itself or 85c per stamp if you buy them in packs of 10 ..a whopping saving of $1.50 +gst.


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Didn't hear about the 30 day grace period. I have to mail in a home insurance policy cancellation next week, so I was about to add another 22cents in lickem stamps with the 63cent stamp.
> But as long as they still deliver for 63 cents to April 30th, I refuse to pay CP the extra postage as they are playing games with people that have to mail envelopes already..
> $1 if you buy the stamp by itself or 85c per stamp if you buy them in packs of 10 ..a whopping *saving of $1.50 +gst*.


 ... actually, it's more if you go from $.63 to $.85 only or $2.31 (GST included) per book of 10 stamps..so even the $.85 per stamp increase (actual increase is 35% - and who gets such obscene percentage wage increase these days?) is hefty let alone the $1.00 cost per stamp. 

To make up for the nickel and dimes denomination requirements, I'm going to break out my pennies jar to buy them. :biggrin:


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... actually, it's more if you go from $.63 to $.85 only or $2.31 (GST included) per book of 10 stamps..so even the $.85 per stamp increase (actual increase is 35% - and who gets such obscene percentage wage increase these days?) is hefty let alone the $1.00 cost per stamp.


Does that $1 individual stamp include GST? You mean CP is giving us a 5 cent break by including GST? The 35% increase is to pay for all those super mailboxes they plan to install
from coast to coast over the next 5 years. 



> To make up for the nickel and dimes denomination requirements, I'm going to break out my pennies jar to buy them. :biggrin:


It is still legal tender, so they have to accept them.


----------



## Nemo2

carverman said:


> It is still legal tender, so they have to accept them.


Not so fast:

http://www.mint.ca/store/mint/learn/faqs-businesses-6900006#.UzxaXPldU2M



> Are businesses required to accept pennies after February 4, 2013?
> 
> While businesses do not have a legal obligation to accept any particular Canadian coins or bank notes in a retail transaction, the penny will continue to be legal tender like all other Canadian coins, and* businesses may accept the coin as a means of payment if they so choose*.


http://www.thewhig.com/2013/02/12/businesses-not-required-to-accept-pennies



> With the recent demise of the penny, many Canadians may be looking to unload their loads of copper coins.
> 
> However, businesses are not required to take the penny as payment, according to a spokesperson of the Royal Canadian Mint.
> 
> And that’s something the majority of people likely don’t realize
> 
> With The Royal Canadian Mint phasing out the penny, people have been trying to dispose of them, sometimes through collection campaigns but also through using them at business. But businesses do not have accept any kind of currency they do not want, explained Alex Reeves, manager of communications at the mint.


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> *Does that $1 individual stamp include GST? You mean CP is giving us a 5 cent break by including GST? * The 35% increase is to pay for all those super mailboxes they plan to install from coast to coast over the next 5 years.
> 
> It is still legal tender, so they have to accept them.


 ... no, I was making a rate differential compare between the 63c and 85c stamps booklet with the GST included ... and not on the individual $1 stamp since no one would be able to "save" anything there. If I was to make a compare with the $1 stamp, then the increase would be 39% - highway robbery!


----------



## Beaver101

Nemo2 said:


> Not so fast:
> 
> http://www.mint.ca/store/mint/learn/faqs-businesses-6900006#.UzxaXPldU2M ...


 ... well, well, well, wouldn't it be funny that CP refuses to accept 10 pennies for two of their 5c stamps which are presumably to be legal?

Ah, I wouldn't worry about pennies not being accepted - I have had the experience to be told you can't use more than 25 loonies to buy a metro transit pass because of some currency "law". :rolleyes2:


----------



## fatcat

30 day grace period ? ... huh ... ?
i paid a buck each for letters and the new rate for usa and foreign
there is no grace period


----------



## Butters

if you had the old 63 cent stamp, they will still accept them for another 25 days now, is what I meant, throw your 63 cent stamps on envelopes and put them in the red box.... you got a few weeks left
of course if you go to the store they will twist your arm to buy the full stamp price

its funny how you guys are talking about 10 cents, because Canada Post will RTS any stamp 11 cents or over and ask you add 11 cents and remail it... but 10 cents or less goes through the system

at the start of this thread i mentioned costco still had permanent stamps
100 stamps for 59 dollars, those P stamps are now worth 85cents each...
stamps can also be used to mail parcels
i bought 200


Those CMBs aren't going to cost abnormal amounts of money, and will save HUGE on injuries

CMBs are Canada Post's way of having less injuries, bottom line
The fact that they will be able to cut 7000 letter carriers is just bonus
The new stamp price, bonus

and those Bonuses, will be going to the 20+ vice presidents and the CEO
Don't forget, even in the only year Canada Post lost money in the past 2 decades, they still got their bonuses


----------



## fatcat

and you buy all the stamps you want on ebay for a 10-20% discount if you want to buy older small denomination stamps and cover your envelope


----------



## carverman

SheaButters said:


> its funny how you guys are talking about 10 cents, because Canada Post will RTS any stamp 11 cents or over and ask you add 11 cents and remail it... but 10 cents or less goes through the system


So are you saying that if I put a 10cent stamp on an envelope it will get delivered each time? Must try that on a "test letter" .


----------



## bgc_fan

carverman said:


> So are you saying that if I put a 10cent stamp on an envelope it will get delivered each time? Must try that on a "test letter" .


I think he means if the difference in postage is less than 10 cents. i.e, you put 75+ cents it'll go through the system.


----------



## gibor365

My son filling out taxes for a 1st time. CRA forces him to send paper return, but Canada Post telling that CRA official envelop is oversized and charges him $2.05 for stamps! My som has $0 income and $0 refund, but he should pay $2.05?! So, one government office forces him to pay to another government office! Ridiculous!!!


----------



## Spudd

I think you live in Mississauga right? 

http://search.hipinfo.info/record/OAK1537


----------



## gibor365

Spudd said:


> I think you live in Mississauga right?
> 
> http://search.hipinfo.info/record/OAK1537


to drive there will cost more


----------



## Homerhomer

gibor said:


> My son filling out taxes for a 1st time. CRA forces him to send paper return, but Canada Post telling that CRA official envelop is oversized and charges him $2.05 for stamps! My som has $0 income and $0 refund, but he should pay $2.05?! So, one government office forces him to pay to another government office! Ridiculous!!!


Raising hell over $2.05!!!!!!! Why not use regular size envelope and pay a buck or whatever less? Or wait until you happen to be by the cra office in the next few months?


----------



## DesignerDee

Funny, I sent my paper return, with several slips and forms and it was only 1.20$ me thinks he was had!


----------



## gibor365

Homerhomer said:


> Raising hell over $2.05!!!!!!! Why not use regular size envelope and pay a buck or whatever less? Or wait until you happen to be by the cra office in the next few months?


The point is not about $2.05! CRA deadline is end of April , my son studies and leves in Waterloo and most likely neither me not my son won't be in next few months close to CRA office.... The other question, why CRA distribute NON "regular size envelope "


----------



## gibor365

DesignerDee said:


> Funny, I sent my paper return, with several slips and forms and it was only 1.20$ me thinks he was had!


That what I thought  so asked him if he had $1.50 ... he walked to local Post office and 10 min aafter called me that they ask for $2.05, so I should've drive to give him more change....
The question is: IF CRA won't allow online return and they WANT this return filled, why students should pay for postage AT ALL?!

P.S> CRA is most ridiculous organization I ever encountered in my live , living in 3 different countries !


----------



## Tightwad

MoreMiles said:


> This is a 59% increase ($0.63 to 1.00) in one year!


Well that is pretty close to the 0.9% cost of living increase on my pension that the federal government is telling me it is. :rolleyes2:

I just won't mail anything, so there!!!

And I'll just buy more in the US and send it to my holding facility in the US. The savings on GST more than pays for my fuel many times over on top of the huge savings on the actual purchase. Business up here just can't figure the simplest of things out, so there, they lose again.


----------



## the-royal-mail

^ there is no shortage of individuals who like repeating the fake inflation numbers despite a constant stream of evidence (such as moremiles posted) to the contrary. 

The real inflation happening now is real and devastating to middle class pocket books.


----------



## fraser

This really is not difficult. No one is forcing you NOT to Efile. The site is just closed for a few days. What is the big issue with that?

If you are expecting a refund, you will receive it much faster by efile along with direct deposit ( BIL had his refund deposited in 2 1/2 weeks) than you will by snail mail.

And if you have to pay...what is the big rush. It is not due until April 30, perhaps a little longer if CRA decides to extend the deadline.

Don't sweat the small stuff. We have filed, re-filed, and have been audited a few times. Never had an issue with CRA or CRA folks.

I am OK with the Canada Post price increase. I mail about 2 letters a year. Everything else is email. I do not want to subsidize Canada Post through my taxes either.

And the upside for me....it just may reduce the amount of junk mail letters that we get.


----------



## gibor365

fraser said:


> This really is not difficult. No one is forcing you NOT to Efile.


Yes, they are! If you filling your 1st time return (as my son did) , you MUST send paper return


----------



## fraser

Even so, it is hardly the end of the world.


----------



## Butters

The 63 cent stamp grace period has been extended until may 31st. 

Use your stamps up!!!


----------



## Beaver101

SheaButters said:


> *The 63 cent stamp grace period has been extended until may 31st*.
> 
> Use your stamps up!!!


 ... who says this? don't see it on CP's website :confused2:


----------



## HaroldCrump

This is classic case of _insider trading_ :biggrin:


----------



## Beaver101

Hmmm???... how slippery of SheaButter .... 

Good one though HaroldC!


----------



## Butters

It's on our info screens at work. I'll try to take a picture later tonight.


----------



## MoreMiles

Cool so would it work if I get 20 cents x 3 and 3 cents x 1?


----------



## Butters

MoreMiles, its more geared to the people that have booklets of 63 cent stamps left... says 1 single 63 stamp

At the start of this thread a few of us went to Costco and bought the P stamps


----------



## Beaver101

Thanks for the headsup /screenprint! ... is CP's top brass planning to keep this a secret? You don't have to answer if you don't want to.


----------



## smihaila

IMHO Canada Post is a lazy, greedy and inefficient company. They are increasing the pricing almost year over year, albeit the quality of service is degrading.
They are now "proposing" to cease sending letters and parcels to your door (if your neighbourhood still happens to not have those "communist boxes").

They should take a look at their United States Postal Service counterpart. They are an example of hard working people. And oh, did I mention that USPS (along with other private companies as well) works on Saturday too? That's what I would call a great service!

Shame on you, greedy and lazy Canada Post!


----------



## the-royal-mail

^ You mean the same USPS behind the following headline?

*U.S. Postal Service loss hits $1.9 billion
*_"The U.S. Postal Service, which does not receive taxpayer funds, has said it could require a massive bailout from the taxpayers in excess of $50 billion by 2017 if Congress fails to act"_

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/09/us-usa-postalservice-results-idUSBREA480IF20140509

Yeah, what an inspiration.


----------



## bgc_fan

The USPS does have some differences as they are regulated by Congress but aren't funded. Looking at the article, they want to go to 5 day delivery to cut costs but need Congress approval. The main problem they have is the payments into the retiree health fund that is hitting the bottom line. That's not too different to the pension issue with Canada Post. However, it doesn't say how much of the loss is due to these retiree health fund payments. It could be operating at a profit.


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## HaroldCrump

The kind of "retiree" benefits that used to be offered by public sector entities (whether Canadian crown corps or USPS-style entities) will bankrupt any business over time.
Esp. a declining business like postal services.

The UK has recently privatized the Royal Mail.
That is one way to go i.e. offload the responsibility away from the tax-payer shoulders, and let private shareholders fight it out with the unions (as long as there are no implicit tax-payer guarantees or backstops).

Providing non profitable services (like our own Canada Post and VIA Rail) as a social service collectively by the tax-payers is a fine idea to begin with, however, over time, it becomes nothing more than a feeding ground for entrenched and entitled unions and lobby groups.
It has happened in almost every case.


----------



## Tom Dl

the-royal-mail said:


> ^ You mean the same USPS behind the following headline?
> 
> *U.S. Postal Service loss hits $1.9 billion
> *_"The U.S. Postal Service, which does not receive taxpayer funds, has said it could require a massive bailout from the taxpayers in excess of $50 billion by 2017 if Congress fails to act"_
> 
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/09/us-usa-postalservice-results-idUSBREA480IF20140509
> 
> Yeah, what an inspiration.



Aren't they gouged by the government, and would get on dandy with their accounts if that were not so. Seem to remember something to that effect.


----------



## smihaila

the-royal-mail said:


> ^ You mean the same USPS behind the following headline?
> 
> *U.S. Postal Service loss hits $1.9 billion
> *_"The U.S. Postal Service, which does not receive taxpayer funds, has said it could require a massive bailout from the taxpayers in excess of $50 billion by 2017 if Congress fails to act"_
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/09/us-usa-postalservice-results-idUSBREA480IF20140509
> 
> Yeah, what an inspiration.



I haven't looked into their financial details, so I can't comment on that. I was just taking note, as a Canadian currently relocated to US, on how good their postal service is. And I can honestly, say, it's GREAT! You can see their small and versatile cars moving all the time. Including early mornings. Sometimes I wonder - they may be visiting the mailboxes even three times per day.


----------



## blueeyetea

HaroldCrump said:


> Providing non profitable services (like our own Canada Post and VIA Rail) as a social service collectively by the tax-payers is a fine idea to begin with, however, over time, it becomes nothing more than a feeding ground for entrenched and entitled unions and lobby groups.
> It has happened in almost every case.


I guess universal service to all Canadians at the same price means nothing to you? If privatization would work, it would have been done a long time ago, unfortunately, takers are only interested in the markets where they can turn a profit. The rest of the country that are losing money would remain with the Government. 



HaroldCrump said:


> Providing non profitable services (like our own Canada Post and VIA Rail) as a social service collectively by the tax-payers is a fine idea to begin with


Canada Post isn't funded by tax-payers. For quite a number of years, it actually paid a dividend to the Government.


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## HaroldCrump

blueeyetea said:


> Canada Post isn't funded by tax-payers. For quite a number of years, it actually paid a dividend to the Government.


If they are so wildly profitable, why are they having to raise rates? And cut services?

So...basically, you are saying that they have to raise rates and cut services so that they can make more profits, so that they can pay more dividends back to...us?


----------



## smihaila

blueeyetea said:


> I guess universal service to all Canadians at the same price means nothing to you? If privatization would work, it would have been done a long time ago, unfortunately, takers are only interested in the markets where they can turn a profit. The rest of the country that are losing money would remain with the Government.


On the same page here - lots of things have been done in the name of the sacrosanct idea of "de-regulation" and privatization of public infrastructure. That didn't bring value but just destroyed value. Look at the public transit system - it's lame - because the Mr. Capital guys (aka the greedy banksters) wanted us to all drive cars, just to create a market for it. 



blueeyetea said:


> Canada Post isn't funded by tax-payers. For quite a number of years, it actually paid a dividend to the Government.


+1. So this is another reason to consider the USPS doubly better example than CPost.


----------



## Butters

Canada Post has 18 of the last 20 years profitable... don't believe me go look it up

During the last rotating strike, which lead to the companying LOCKING us out, and the company also paid a lawsuit that year for paying females a lower wage 33 years ago. They lost money...

And just this past year, Canada Post lost 250 million or so, but since they own a nice steak in puralotor and a few other companies, they ONLY lost 29 million in 2013. They however, had enough money to pay all their management bonuses, including about 7000 supervisors and these 22 Vice Pres guys made 300k each in bonuses.

So my ongoing joke at work, is they lost 29 million, but paid 30 million in bonuses.

The truth of the matter is they are fudging the numbers and making these look crappy so they can go ahead with their box idea. Which is a service cut to Canadians. And they also increased the priced.. double whammy.

They have many other problems, for example in my office, they came to restructure the area (they previously did it 2 years ago) so they hired about 20 people off the street for 17 bucks an hour a 2 week block to count mail to and check our volumes
They also hire additional supervisors that bounce town to town and they are the ones in charge of cutting the routes
in our office these supervisors spent close to 6 months working on our office and were not able to cut any full time jobs. So they basically paid probably the equivalent of 6 full time carriers 1 year salary, to cut no jobs...
They have ran out of options to cut our jobs

you can read up about all that jazz here...
http://www.canadapost.ca/cpo/mc/aboutus/corporate/postaltransformation/news.jsf

one key point ill highlight is _Delivery agents will spend less time inside preparing their mail and more time outside delivering both mail and parcels
_

The place is so toxic now, hardly anyone wants to work there now at the new lower tiered wage, the turnover rate is in the 60% nationwide, and 95% here in edmonton
Why do you think Fort Mac is the first place to get boxes? Why do you think they wanted to charge an addition 5$ rate for parcels to Fort Mac?
Did you know they hired an outside company to deliver parcels in Fort Mac for DOUBLE THE PRICE Canada Post receives? The contract was something like 600k dollars to deliver 300k of parcels


What they should be doing, is offering more services to Canadians.
Canada Post is the largest Canadian brand, and has the most outlets in all of Canada.
How easy would it be to do the Presidents Choice///Tangerine banking. Throw a ATM in all of their outlets... they have so many rural postal outlets, but those towns have no banks in them. 
Use their name that already has the trust.
Similarly they could throw a cell phone tower on each of their stores and have the widest cell phone network in Canada


I could go on for hours about how in 2008 they had a huge meeting and the global guys told Canada Post not to change anything. That it was profitable.
Since then, they have bought/leased nearly 50k ford transits
Built huge buildings everywhere... those are 2 great places to hide their money and "claim losses"
The old plant in Winnipeg was several stories, the new one at the airport is 1 story, its huge, they bought a whole block downtown vancouver, they built several new depots here in edmonton

Our old CEO tried to privatize Canada Post, failed, and moved to Royal Mail
The newer CEO is from pittney bowes, the largest privatized mail company in the world

They want to do it here, but in Canada they can't because there are too many rural places, and as soon as they change some things, it will greatly affect the service and price anyone outside of a major city gets.
Lots of people rely on Canada Post, don't think of just yourself.


I'll close this out by saying I usually deliver 

10 parcels a day roughly 20$ each
600 letters, now 75cents-$1 each
200 magazines, cost unknown?
1000 flyers a day, Canada Post profits 8 cents each on these

so I deliver at least $700 a day, and I don't make nearly half of that. Times what 40,000 carriers?
So on most days Canada Post makes 20 million profit a business day (excluding their land/gas and transport/machine costs)... in December it's triple that


I've worked there almost 6 years now, my brother closer to 15 years, and the place has really gone down hill.

Before, if someone got bite by a dog, or called in sick... whatever happen other guys would step up and cover his route

Now, they can't hire(correction KEEP) enough staff, and mail will sit a day or two before it gets delivered


----------



## blueeyetea

HaroldCrump said:


> If they are so wildly profitable, why are they having to raise rates? And cut services?


I didn't say they were wildly profitable, so quit attributing words I don't actually say, ok? 

For a company that size Canada Post has been breaking even, and over the years, have managed to pay the Government a dividend. Go look it up in past annual reports. The numbers are right there. 

Canada Post is raising rates, but not cutting services. Yes, door-to-door delivery will stop, but considering 1/3 of Canadians are getting that service, and other 2/3 not, it's not as big a deal than some people make it out to be, because they'll still get their mail delivered every day. The difference is that some will now have to walk a block to pick up their mail. 

Which brings me to the fact that lettermail volumes have gone down, while the obligation to deliver mail and the associated costs have remained the same. Don't blame Canada Post because Canadians communicate and pay their bills by other means than putting them in the mail. The Government has mandated Canada Post to remain self-sufficient without subsidies from taxes, which should be music to your ears. However, there is still the reality that mail volumes will continue to go down, and Canada Post still has to make-up for the short-fall in revenues, so they raised the rates of stamps. 



HaroldCrump said:


> So...basically, you are saying that they have to raise rates and cut services so that they can make more profits, so that they can pay more dividends back to...us?


I repeat, when Canada Post turned a profit it paid a dividend to the Government or, as you say, to you the taxpayer from their profits. I don't know what the Government wants in case Canada Post turns a profit again. Privatize and sell it maybe?


----------



## blueeyetea

smihaila said:


> +1. So this is another reason to consider the USPS doubly better example than CPost.


I'm not quite following the reasoning that USPS is better than Canada Post when USPS suffered a loss of $15.9 billion in 2012 and $5 billion in 2013.


----------



## gt_23

SheaButters said:


> Canada Post has 18 of the last 20 years profitable... don't believe me go look it up


I never mail anything anymore, but was really shocked when I went to mail a parking ticket (maybe 5 km max) and the clerk asked for $1.15...what a joke.

The reality is that this so-called turnaround attempt, by doubling the cost of a stamp, will only accelerate CP's decline. The same day this was announced, the company I work for launched a team to figure out how to get clients to go paperless or e-statements. On millions of envelopes a year, its not insignificant for CP.

CP needs to be privatized yesterday.


----------



## fraser

I have no issue with Canada Post. Mail volumes, especially first class letter, have and will continue to decrease significantly. 

How many Christmas cards do you get in the mail? Some of my providers charge as much as $5. per month for a hard copy bill in the mail vs a ebill.

How many bills to you pay online? How many do you mail? Huge decrease over the years. I bought 10 stamps over a year ago. I still have 5 left. 

No wonder revenue is down. This is not attributable to labour costs. It is a business volume issue. The choice is straightforward. Change the business model. But make no mistake, either postage goes up or Canada Post will have to be subsidized by the gov't. I prefer the former to the latter.

We get so little important mail (it is just about all on line) that we would be fine with three day a week delivery. We get more junk mail than anything else.


----------



## blueeyetea

SheaButters said:


> And just this past year, Canada Post lost 250 million or so, but since they own a nice steak in puralotor and a few other companies, they ONLY lost 29 million in 2013. They however, had enough money to pay all their management bonuses, including about 7000 supervisors


Yes, because those bonuses are part of the pay packages that gets announced at the beginning of the year and what goals need to be reached. 

I've seen quite a number of these comments on bonuses from CUPW people recently on other boards, and I wonder why they would begrudge those bonuses to those who have earned them. A CUPW employee gets is paid an hourly rate (a very good one), plus overtime. And what about that householder bonus for delivering junk mail? Is that still around? 

If pay for performance bonuses were were such a good deal, CUPW would have offered to lower the hourly rate of existing employees and replace the different with pay for performance. 



SheaButters said:


> The truth of the matter is they are fudging the numbers and making these look crappy so they can go ahead with their box idea. Which is a service cut to Canadians. And they also increased the priced.. double whammy.


How is that possible, considering Canada Post is audited by the Auditor General of Canada and numbers can be made available upon request via the Access to Information Act? 




SheaButters said:


> The place is so toxic now, hardly anyone wants to work there now at the new lower tiered wage, the turnover rate is in the 60% nationwide, and 95% here in Edmonton


Where do you get these numbers and what do they represent? People who leave occupied what jobs: full time, part time employees, terms, casuals? The lowest tier is paid what, $19/hour? 

Hasn't Edmonton been experiencing job growth in the last couple of years? That turnover wouldn't have to do with access to better jobs nearby? 



SheaButters said:


> Did you know they hired an outside company to deliver parcels in Fort Mac for DOUBLE THE PRICE Canada Post receives? The contract was something like 600k dollars to deliver 300k of parcels


You don't have access to the sales numbers of the mail that's in the truck, nor the delivery contract, nor the invoices from the delivery company, so how do you come to that conclusion? 



SheaButters said:


> How easy would it be to do the Presidents Choice///Tangerine banking. Throw a ATM in all of their outlets... they have so many rural postal outlets, but those towns have no banks in them.


Ummm, Tangerine is owned by Scotia Bank, and President's Choice Bank is CIBC. Canada Post isn't a bank. What point would there be to offer banking services? To attract more traffic to the post office so that they sell more stamps or parcel services? How is Canada Post to cover the cost of the banking service? With fees per transaction? How well would that compete with free service? 



SheaButters said:


> Similarly they could throw a cell phone tower on each of their stores and have the widest cell phone network in Canada


To what end? This wouldn't be free because they have to bid for wireless markets, and they don't have the expertise in comparison to the wireless companies that already exists. Canada Post couldn't even make a go of celling prepaid cell phone cards. 



SheaButters said:


> I could go on for hours about how in 2008 they had a huge meeting and the global guys told Canada Post not to change anything. That it was profitable.


Who are the global guys? Why would they tell Canada Post not to change anything? 

Since then, they have bought/leased nearly 50k ford transits
Built huge buildings everywhere... those are 2 great places to hide their money and "claim losses"
The old plant in Winnipeg was several stories, the new one at the airport is 1 story, its huge, they bought a whole block downtown vancouver, they built several new depots here in Edmonton[/quote]

Where are you getting your information, because from the looks of it, it's not very reliable. The Ford transits are for letter carriers, so how could there be 50K trucks for 40,000 employees? Your numbers aren't computing. 

Canada Post hadn't invested in new equipment or processing facilities since the 1970s. Everything was breaking down and residing in prime real estate location in downtown areas. They sold that real estate and built closer to the airports where land is cheaper. They didn't buy a whole block in Vancouver, Canada Post sold a new block and built a new one by the airport as well. 



SheaButters said:


> I'll close this out by saying I usually deliver
> 
> 10 parcels a day roughly 20$ each
> 600 letters, now 75cents-$1 each
> 200 magazines, cost unknown?
> 1000 flyers a day, Canada Post profits 8 cents each on these
> 
> so I deliver at least $700 a day, and I don't make nearly half of that. Times what 40,000 carriers?
> 
> So on most days Canada Post makes 20 million profit a business day (excluding their land/gas and transport/machine costs)... in December it's triple that


Well, ok, if you make $24/hour, that's $180 for a 7.5 hour day? Add 33% for your benefits, so that goes up to $234. If you use the Ford Transit above, add the cost of the vehicle, the gas and maintenance to the $234. If you don't use a Ford transit, you get around to your routes how, by bus, or taxi? Another cost. What about the cost of having that mail picked up and brought to the plant for processing? And the equipment that's used to process the mail? And the overhead on the facility to houses that equipment? And the planes the mail from Toronto and Montreal arrived on? And the truck and driver that ferried the mail from the airport to the plant? It all costs money. 

And the mail you think brings $700/day. How many of the parcels of that are from big businesses, like Amazon, for example, who don't pay the full rates because they get discounts for higher volumes of mail they hand over to Canada Post? How many letters actually have an $0.85 stamp, and don't come from large mailers like utility companies that also get a discounted rate? 

Do you see how fast the profit you think is coming could be shrinking? 



SheaButters said:


> Now, they can't hire(correction KEEP) enough staff, and mail will sit a day or two before it gets delivered


That, I don't believe. Edmonton might be an isolated case. There are too many young people in Canada looking for jobs and would be happy to land a job at Canada Post.


----------



## blueeyetea

gt_23 said:


> The reality is that this so-called turnaround attempt, by doubling the cost of a stamp, will only accelerate CP's decline. The same day this was announced, the company I work for launched a team to figure out how to get clients to go paperless or e-statements. On millions of envelopes a year, its not insignificant for CP.
> 
> CP needs to be privatized yesterday.


Your company wants to go wireless or to e-statements to save money, not necessarily related to the hike in stamps. It's just good business to reduce costs as much as possible, and these days, it's via electronic services. 

So there you have it. Mail volumes are going down, stamp prices are going up to compensate, and the other side of the coin, company like yours are taking away business because it's cheaper to send an e-statement. 

Tell me. How would a private company reconcile all this and make a profit? Oh, and don't forget, the private company can't pick and choose which markets to service, and must provide services to all Canadians at the same price.


----------



## blueeyetea

fraser said:


> .We get so little important mail (it is just about all on line) that we would be fine with three day a week delivery. We get more junk mail than anything else.


Delivery to three days a week would certainly bring down costs, but to remain competitive, Canada Post has to provide the same level of service than other comparable delivery businesses, which is Monday to Friday.


----------



## gt_23

blueeyetea said:


> Your company wants to go wireless or to e-statements to save money, not necessarily related to the hike in stamps. It's just good business to reduce costs as much as possible, and these days, it's via electronic services.
> 
> So there you have it. Mail volumes are going down, stamp prices are going up to compensate, and the other side of the coin, company like yours are taking away business because it's cheaper to send an e-statement.


Read carefully, while they probably would have got to this eventually it didn't become a priority until they were faced with increased costs due to the price (tax) hike.



blueeyetea said:


> Tell me. How would a private company reconcile all this and make a profit? Oh, and don't forget, the private company can't pick and choose which markets to service, and must provide services to all Canadians at the same price.


First off, I haven't spent a great deal of time thinking about this, or seen CP's financial statements, but here goes: A good share of the cost to deliver most Gov't services is labor....probably true for CP. Private companies tend to pay for labor what labor is actually worth, unlike in Gov't or Gov't-protected situations. Delivering and sorting mail is at best semi-skilled labor, maybe in the $15/hr range and probably not near so generous benefits.

I'm not denying that the demand is and will continue to shrink for letter mail, however, lots of private companies make a profit in mature and shrinking industries every single day. The universal postal box idea was probably a good move and should be accompanied with a mass elimination of headcount if it wasn't already planned - this was a good operational move. However, the price increase will only serve to accelerate volume declines and the evolution of e-statements as consumers perceive an extreme drop in value (no more door to door) with a huge increase in price at the same time.

Not to make this political, but this is a fundamental difference between Liberals and Conservatives: Liberals like to pick the winners and losers and anoint certain companies, individuals, industries, etc. Conservatives don't waste their time or effort on this and tend to focus on new market opportunities and growth. A privatized CP would likely have to find new products and services to market, and I don't pretend to know what those are at the moment. But this is how most companies operate and evolve: more profitable segments tend to offset the less profitable or more mature ones, and if certain markets (such as that for letter mail) eventually vanish, those growth segments will ensure their continued survival.

So to summarize, a private CP should at least start with the following 3 things (Gov't sucks at all 3 btw):

1) Reduce labor costs to market rates - and this is the all-in cost of labor (wages, benefits, vacation, etc.), not what the employee gets paid. I would think this would be at least a 20-30% reduction.
2) Focus on operational improvement and efficiencies - such as the postal box idea, this removes a lot of required labor. Probably more network/distribution optimization is in order too.
3) Invest in marketing and innovation - to find new market opportunities that can leverage CPs existing capabilities, thereby reducing average unit costs and ensuring sustainability. Understand what your consumers want and need and how much they are willing to pay for it. Raising your prices in huge 40% jumps will only remove demand for your product and force your customers to become somebody else's customer.

The problem with Gov't and Gov't corps is that they forget about the demand side. They are really good at spending money, but often forget where it comes from as revenues seem to flow endlessly. However, if you neglect the customer long enough, as soon an alternative is available, you will eventually feel the pain, as CP is currently.


----------



## MoreMiles

You are wasting your time arguing with Canada Post employees here. They already got this unchangeable belief that all the lost money is due to greedy executives. The reality is, how many unionized employees are there vs. how many executives are there in Canada Post? Then anyone with a basic math skill will understand that the issue is related to massive labour cost to a high number of overpaid employees.

Let's face it. Bringing some paper from one location to another one (ie, letter carrier) is not exactly rocket science. You just need basic literary skills (ie, elementary school level) to understand the address words. That's it. So it should be a minimum wage type of job with no benefit, like $11 per hour. I will tell you many new grads will line up to do such job if it is available, as it requires no science background, professional certification, etc. It is an entry-level job, period.

Why would you pay such employees close to $20 with pensions? Why would these employees still strike every few years, and claim "we were locked out".... Pluueeze... it's like you argue with your spouse and threaten to divorce, and only come home every second day, then you complain your spouse "locked you out totally" until a mediation negotiation is completed. 

We have outsourced many call centre jobs to Asian countries. One day, there will be a way to outsource these delivering jobs too. Maybe with unmanned drones delivering, with drivers located in India... It's coming soon, look at http://eater.com/archives/2014/05/22/watch-a-drone-deliver-a-pizza-in-mumbai.php

At that time, the overpaid employees can all be fired. Yes, I support Conservative idea of firing 100,000 employees. And I am glad that I am not alone.


----------



## MoreMiles

blueeyetea said:


> There are too many young people in Canada looking for jobs and would be happy to land a job at Canada Post.


+1
Privatize Canada Post, fire everyone making more than $15 /h, reset the labour structures, and use entry-level carriers.

Remember newspaper carrier? They have made it very clear it's a entry-level job even a teenager can do, so its delivering cost is controlled. Teenagers delivery paper before going to schools. Amusement parks use students to operate too. Canada Post should have taken the same approach in my opinion.


----------



## gt_23

MoreMiles said:


> +1
> Privatize Canada Post, fire everyone making more than $15 /h, reset the labour structures, and use entry-level carriers.
> 
> Remember newspaper carrier? They have made it very clear it's a entry-level job even a teenager can do, so its delivering cost is controlled. Teenagers delivery paper before going to schools. Amusement parks use students to operate too. Canada Post should have taken the same approach in my opinion.


I think the problem is (and Gov't realize this) the only way they can keep the UE rate down is by hiring these ppl themselves. The USA has the military to keep ppl working, Cda has an oversize civil service.


----------



## gt_23

MoreMiles said:


> You are wasting your time arguing with Canada Post employees here. They already got this unchangeable belief that all the lost money is due to greedy executives. The reality is, how many unionized employees are there vs. how many executives are there in Canada Post? Then anyone with a basic math skill will understand that the issue is related to massive labour cost to a high number of overpaid employees.
> 
> Let's face it. Bringing some paper from one location to another one (ie, letter carrier) is not exactly rocket science. You just need basic literary skills (ie, elementary school level) to understand the address words. That's it. So it should be a minimum wage type of job with no benefit, like $11 per hour. I will tell you many new grads will line up to do such job if it is available, as it requires no science background, professional certification, etc. It is an entry-level job, period.
> 
> Why would you pay such employees close to $20 with pensions? Why would these employees still strike every few years, and claim "we were locked out".... Pluueeze... it's like you argue with your spouse and threaten to divorce, and only come home every second day, then you complain your spouse "locked you out totally" until a mediation negotiation is completed.
> 
> We have outsourced many call centre jobs to Asian countries. One day, there will be a way to outsource these delivering jobs too. Maybe with unmanned drones delivering, with drivers located in India... It's coming soon, look at http://eater.com/archives/2014/05/22/watch-a-drone-deliver-a-pizza-in-mumbai.php
> 
> At that time, the overpaid employees can all be fired. Yes, I support Conservative idea of firing 100,000 employees. And I am glad that I am not alone.


I guess I thought that they were capable of objectivity. 

100k jobs will just dial-us back a few years. It won't right-size and certainly won't swing Ont to surplus by itself.


----------



## blueeyetea

MoreMiles said:


> You are wasting your time arguing with Canada Post employees here. They already got this unchangeable belief that all the lost money is due to greedy executives. The reality is, how many unionized employees are there vs. how many executives are there in Canada Post?


But you can't help wasting your time expressing your prejudiced opionion, can you? The reality if you don't know what employees at CP believe or what they think. You're assuming way too much. 



MoreMiles said:


> You just need basic literary skills (ie, elementary school level) to understand the address words. That's it. So it should be a minimum wage type of job with no benefit, like $11 per hour...


Why? What about the blow to the economy when good paying jobs disappear? These overpaid people also put money in the economy and their communities - heck, they might even contribute to pay your salary. What if we told you that cutting off these overpriced employees might influence a reduction in your salary and benefits in the future? 



MoreMiles said:


> Why would you pay such employees close to $20 with pensions? Why would these employees still strike every few years, and claim "we were locked out".... Pluueeze... it's like you argue with your spouse and threaten to divorce, and only come home every second day, then you complain your spouse "locked you out totally" until a mediation negotiation is completed.


Do me a favour, know what you're talking about. CUPW went on strike and they were also locked out. So, to be more accurate with your example, the husband left the house and came home to find the locks changed. The Government stepped in to force both sides to get back to the table. 



MoreMiles said:


> Yes, I support Conservative idea of firing 100,000 employees. And I am glad that I am not alone.


No, it's just another example you don't think very far ahead if you think 100,000 out of work wouldn't affect the economy and, indirectly, you.


----------



## SpIcEz

I'm not going to go ahead and agree that those 100 000 jobs all deserve to be cut and that everyone without an education should be paid $11 dollars an hour.

However, the union speech of people who make more money, contribute more to the economy is tired.

Its true, to a certain degree. And massive government cuts will affect the economy, BUT IT HAS TO BE DONE.
We are no longer living in the 1960's where governments create useless jobs to pretend they are doing something, because we have soooo much money.

ENOUGH. Government jobs are jobs create TO service the people. The people are tax payers. And no, in my opinion, the taxes that people pay with government jobs do not count, because it was government money to begin with.

If your job is not essential, if you cannot be recycled elsewhere, and if the job is way overpaid because of unfair union gangster negotiations holding the Canadian taxpayers hostage, I say, OUT, kick that job to the curb, CUT that salary, attrition the **** out of that division, WHATEVER IT TAKES.

People who don't have those fat *** pensions, who create the REAL wealth in Canada and pay the taxes SHOULD NOT CARRY THE BURDEN of those working in unnecessary or overpaid jobs. Look in Quebec, the government unions are asking for a 4% increase for 3 years (16%). THEY ARE FRAKKING INSANE. They fudge statistics and compare their salaries to equivalent municipal jobs. Municipal jobs are even MORE over paid.

Look, I dont know much about CP and the salary structure, I cant directly talk about that, I can say if there is a union, they are overpaid, because that is the way it is in Canada, unions abuse employers and taxpayers, even when those employers or taxpayers are generous.

But I do agree, that any union employee has this beliefs that if a few VPs didint get a bonus, the bottom line of the company would be completely different, which is ridiculous.


----------



## HaroldCrump

SpIcEz said:


> However, the union speech of people who make more money, contribute more to the economy is tired.


_*Of course*_ that rhetoric is balderdash.
If that were true, governments around the world will be able to create infinite amounts of GDP by giving everyone a free desk job and highly paid salaries.
Keep increasing salaries...GDP keeps going up.


----------



## blueeyetea

SpIcEz said:


> People who don't have those fat *** pensions, who create the REAL wealth in Canada and pay the taxes


Who creates the REAL wealth in Canada, do you think? Just like the US, salaries for the middle class and below have remained stagnant or gone down in Canada, while executive pay have steadily gone up. 

They might be creating wealth, but they're keeping it to themselves. 



SpIcEz said:


> Government jobs are jobs create TO service the people. The people are tax payers. And no, in my opinion, the taxes that people pay with government jobs do not count, because it was government money to begin with.


This is just an argument I just don't understand. People are hired to do a job, for which they got educated, and are qualified, and just because it's paid with taxes, they should just roll over and work for peanuts because, OMG, people pay taxes. Taxes that go towards services and benefits that Canadians demand. 



SpIcEz said:


> Look, I dont know much about CP and the salary structure, I cant directly talk about that, I can say if there is a union, they are overpaid, because that is the way it is in Canada, unions abuse employers and taxpayers, even when those employers or taxpayers are generous.


But we are talking about Canada Post, whose salaries are not paid with taxes. Anyone not using the service doesn't contribute to the salaries.


----------



## fraser

Fat *** pensions? Do you know what the average pension at Canada Post is? I don't, but I would never assume that the majority of their ees have pensions that could be considered fat *** pensions. I did know a letter carrier who retired a number of years ago. His DB pension certainly was not fat *** but perhaps he was in the minority.


Nor do I have access to their financials along with a comparison of their costs, including their labour cost, against similar best in class operations. So I cannot really judge them on this.


----------



## gt_23

blueeyetea said:


> This is just an argument I just don't understand. People are hired to do a job, for which they got educated, and are qualified, and just because it's paid with taxes, they should just roll over and work for peanuts because, OMG, people pay taxes. Taxes that go towards services and benefits that Canadians demand.


I don't think anyone is arguing they should work for free but it's well documented that on average Gov't workers from entry level to mid-mgmt earn more than similar positions in the private sector. This is particularly troubling given the over-supply of qualified labour for Gov't positions. If supply is plentiful, then wages ought to be lower than they are.

I think the other important factor to consider as a taxpayer is the cost of the employee, not their salaries. Consider a Gov't worker earning $100k salary. This salary alone is higher than it ought to be based on their skills and responsbilities. However, they also have generous employment and retirement benefits that cost their employers at least an additional 50% of their base, effectively costing the taxpayer $150k. In the private sector, all else being equal, their salary and gross-up would be lower, they would have moderate to little job security, and they would likely be required to work ever-increasing hours.

This is the grievance that many Canadians have with Gov't workers - they continue to work harder for less, so the latter can work less for more.


----------



## Nemo2

blueeyetea said:


> Taxes that go towards services and benefits that Canadians demand.


Be interesting to check the correlation between the 'demanders' and the 'payees'.


----------



## bgc_fan

gt_23 said:


> I don't think anyone is arguing they should work for free but it's well documented that on average Gov't workers from entry level to mid-mgmt earn more than similar positions in the private sector. This is particularly troubling given the over-supply of qualified labour for Gov't positions. If supply is plentiful, then wages ought to be lower than they are.


I'm a little tired of this beating up on public servants and misinformation like this. You have to judge my a positional basis. For examples, those clerks that you see manning the desks are probably CR classifications, probably no more than CR-02 making a max $38K. Is that a lot? You tell me if you would be willing to put up with people with bad attitudes demanding things just because they believe they have the right to. And there's nothing secret, all the pay scales are available on-line: http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/coll_agre/rates-taux-eng.asp 



> I think the other important factor to consider as a taxpayer is the cost of the employee, not their salaries. Consider a Gov't worker earning $100k salary.


Take a look at the Ontario sunshine list and tell me who there doesn't deserve their salary. It all depends on their classification, but you'll find the majority to be somewhat specialists (legal, police, doctors) and some of the managers/directors. There may be the odd teacher, but the majority of the education ones are principals and higher up on the chain.
http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/salarydisclosure/pssd/


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## blueeyetea

HaroldCrump said:


> _*Of course*_ that rhetoric is balderdash.
> If that were true, governments around the world will be able to create infinite amounts of GDP by giving everyone a free desk job and highly paid salaries.
> Keep increasing salaries...GDP keeps going up.


You’re just being silly. It’s not that much different than when the Governments pumps dollars into the private sector via contracts it grants to boost the economy.


----------



## blueeyetea

gt_23 said:


> I think the other important factor to consider as a taxpayer is the cost of the employee, not their salaries. Consider a Gov't worker earning $100k salary. This salary alone is higher than it ought to be based on their skills and responsbilities.


And at what profession does someone earning $100K salary without being educated and years of training? Crown attorneys? Border guards? RCMP officers? Internal Auditors? Scientists? Lab technicians? IT Specialists? Doctors? Managers?

Granted, they might earn a bit more than the private sector, but depending on the year and economic situation, the situation has been reversed often where the private sector workers were earning more. 

Clerks at the bottom of the rung aren’t pulling $100K/year, even if those job haven’t been contracted out yet. (I’m just thinking out loud and think of the clerk who verifies my tax return every year. How much would my SIN be worth to him if he only earned $8/hour.)

Then there are positions like deputy ministers who have good salary, but at that level of skill and expertise, they’d earn a lot of in the private sector. Just look at a crown corporation. The CEO of Canada Post may be earning $700K a year, but how does that compare to compensation of CEOs at companies in Canada and US with revenues of $7.5 billion? 



gt_23 said:


> However, they also have generous employment and retirement benefits that cost their employers at least an additional 50% of their base, effectively costing the taxpayer $150k.


Fifty percent sounds high. I’ve heard 33% is used when calculating budget forecasts. 



gt_23 said:


> In the private sector, all else being equal, their salary and gross-up would be lower, they would have moderate to little job security, and they would likely be required to work ever-increasing hours.


That’s not necessarily true that comparable jobs are all lower in the private sector than the Government, or that it’s always been that way. I personally have friends who do the same work I do in the private sector make more money with better benefits, and a pension. 



gt_23 said:


> This is the grievance that many Canadians have with Gov't workers - they continue to work harder for less, so the latter can work less for more.


People in the private don't work more for Government employees to work less! Come on. That is just not true. They work more to earn more money, period. 

Those same Canadians believe they don’t need unions to negotiate better working conditions, wages and benefits, and businesses take advantage in kind. Yet, it’s the Government worker who is used as the scapegoat.


----------



## blueeyetea

Nemo2 said:


> Be interesting to check the correlation between the 'demanders' and the 'payees'.


Well, as an individual, probably not much until you need something like getting a tax refund or collect unemployment cheque. Collectively, a lot that you wouldn't trust the private sector with. Collecting taxes, policing, food safety regulations, agriculture research, CPP payments, international trade, governance over natural resources are some that I can think of off the top of my head.


----------



## Nemo2

Meanwhile...back O'Bourke:

http://www.theage.com.au/national/australia-post-to-axe-900-jobs-20140607-39q4s.html



> Australia Post is in financial crisis, with 900 job cuts to be announced this week and more pain to follow unless urgent action is taken.
> One of Australia's oldest companies, Australian Post is expected to lose billions of dollars over the next decade due mostly to its failing letters business. Its 32,000 employees are expected to be told of the job cuts on Tuesday, with 70 per cent of the jobs to go in Melbourne, where the head office is located. Another likely casualty of the crisis is every-weekday home delivery of standard-priced mail. If Australia Post wins approval to change government regulations, standard mail will be delivered only two or three days a week instead of five.
> The Sunday Age has been told that private modelling has estimated Australia Post will lose $7.1 billion through to 2022-23 if the business continues on its current path. Losses in the letters delivery business alone are forecast to be $12 billion over the same period.


----------



## Beaver101

Nemo2 said:


> Meanwhile...back O'Bourke:
> 
> Australia Post is in financial crisis, with 900 job cuts to be announced this week and more pain to follow unless urgent action is taken.
> One of Australia's oldest companies, Australian Post is expected to lose billions of dollars over the next decade due mostly to its failing letters business. Its 32,000 employees are expected to be told of the job cuts on Tuesday, with 70 per cent of the jobs to go in Melbourne, where the head office is located. Another likely casualty of the crisis is every-weekday home delivery of standard-priced mail. *If Australia Post wins approval to change government regulations, standard mail will be delivered only two or three days a week instead of five.
> *The Sunday Age has been told that private modelling has estimated Australia Post will lose $7.1 billion through to 2022-23 if the business continues on its current path. Losses in the letters delivery business alone are forecast to be $12 billion over the same period.


 ... at least the AP is willing to consider (actually implement) a 2-3 days delivery week instead of 5 while our CP won't even consider a 1 day delivery but to implement those stupid ugly super-boxes which will actually cost more to install and maintain (nothing to say about the bigger problem of security issues) .. nice way to keep the customers happy and keep using the remaing services, if any. :emptiness:

From the same link:


> *Australia Post chief executive Ahmed Fahour had been warning colleagues *and the government of the company's impending financial crisis unless urgent action was taken. Mr Fahour, who has been chief executive since 2010 *and was paid $4.8 million last year*, said in a speech last month: ''The unfortunate reality is that our regulated letters business is now bleeding money - as the community shifts away from letters and towards digital forms of communication.
> 
> ''If we wait another 12 months, it might be too late as the large losses from the letters will overwhelm the organisation.''
> 
> *He added, ominously: ''There is less business, so it's harder to feed so many mouths.'' *


 ... funny, he doesn't see that his $4.8 millions feeds *one* VERY BIG mouth. :rolleyes-new:


----------



## fraser

Put all of the salary stuff to the side.

The issue for Canada Post is very straightforward...REVENUE. People are not using the post like they used to.

What will drive the solution will be revenue, not salary. Wages will come later. 

Focusing on wages will not solve the Canada Post challenge.


----------



## Beaver101

> fraser said:
> 
> 
> 
> Put all of the salary stuff to the side.
> 
> *The issue for Canada Post is very straightforward...REVENUE. People are not using the post like they used to*.
> 
> What will drive the solution will be revenue, not salary. Wages will come later.
> 
> *Focusing on wages will not solve the Canada Post challenge.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> ... in this case then, CP should just close shop and go the way of the dinosaurs. Not sure why they need to bleed themselves to death slowly by job cuts. Maybe this is the best solution that "top-paid brass" can come up with?
Click to expand...


----------



## gt_23

Beaver101 said:


> ... in this case then, CP should just close shop and go the way of the dinosaurs. Not sure why they need to bleed themselves to death slowly by job cuts. Maybe this is the best solution that "top-paid brass" can come up with?
> 
> 
> 
> I think most businesses would try to innovate themselves into a new segment before throwing in the towel, though even if they do, there is no guarantee of success. CP ought to hire some expensive consultants to tell them where to look - I'm sure Ms. Wynne could refer her friends at McK.
Click to expand...


----------



## gt_23

blueeyetea said:


> Clerks at the bottom of the rung aren’t pulling $100K/year, even if those job haven’t been contracted out yet. (I’m just thinking out loud and think of the clerk who verifies my tax return every year. How much would my SIN be worth to him if he only earned $8/hour.)


I don't think anyone who references bloated Gov't wages and lazy workers is referring to clerks earning minimum wage. The term is usually used as a generalization for the groups of teachers, cops, firefighters, doctors, transit workers, bus drivers, etc...who make up the bulk of Gov't employees. Perhaps I should have been explicit in this.



blueeyetea said:


> Then there are positions like deputy ministers who have good salary, but at that level of skill and expertise, they’d earn a lot of in the private sector. Just look at a crown corporation. The CEO of Canada Post may be earning $700K a year, but how does that compare to compensation of CEOs at companies in Canada and US with revenues of $7.5 billion?


In Canada at least, most CEOs don't earn $7.5M, but rather a salary of $500k-$1M. The rest is made up of variable compensation tied to financial performance and options which become worthless if the company doesn't profit over the short, medium, and long term. Canada Post is losing money and the plan that your $700k p.a. CEO has implemented will not likely turn that around (for reasons given above). He ought to feel guilty for taking even that sum from the taxpayers of Canada and other CP stakeholders.



blueeyetea said:


> Fifty percent sounds high. I’ve heard 33% is used when calculating budget forecasts.


I have no idea what the actual is, but there is no way it is 33% unless you exclude the DB pension. At the firm I work for, the extras cost 32%, and that is for a DC pension and modest benefits: basic health/dental @ 80% coverage, etc.



blueeyetea said:


> That’s not necessarily true that comparable jobs are all lower in the private sector than the Government, or that it’s always been that way. I personally have friends who do the same work I do in the private sector make more money with better benefits, and a pension.


We all now those who are exceptions to the rule. However, there have been many studies on this topic, just Google "public sector wage gap Canada." Not only does the gap exist, its growing bigger y/y.



blueeyetea said:


> People in the private don't work more for Government employees to work less! Come on. That is just not true. They work more to earn more money, period.
> 
> Those same Canadians believe they don’t need unions to negotiate better working conditions, wages and benefits, and businesses take advantage in kind. Yet, it’s the Government worker who is used as the scapegoat.


Actually they do work much harder. Perhaps you can arrange a job-shadow with a small business owner. In large corporations, there is so much competition these days (job safety is a myth in the private sector), you have to continuously work harder and longer (for the same salary) to prove your worth.

Finally, wrt your final comment, roughly 20% of Canada's workforce is self-employed. Millions more work for small businesses. Despite your assertion, there is really little practical likelihood of unionization for these people. Even if they did unionize, private sector managers are unlikely to make the kinds of concessions that politicians have with public sector unions.


----------



## Belguy

Some say that people aren't using Canada Post as often as they used to. I know that I'm not. Have you noticed the cost of first class postage lately? It seems that their objective is to just price themselves into oblivion. It seems like a mighty strange business model to me but what do I know?


----------



## HaroldCrump

gt_23 said:


> I'm sure Ms. Wynne could refer her friends at McK.


Fortunately Ms. Wynne doesn't have an iota of say on Canada Post matters.


----------



## HaroldCrump

blueeyetea said:


> And at what profession does someone earning $100K salary without being educated and years of training? Crown attorneys? Border guards? RCMP officers? Internal Auditors? Scientists? Lab technicians? IT Specialists? Doctors? Managers?


Umm....bus drivers in union infested transit sectors, such as TTC, GO Transit, etc.
Including over-time, of course.

There a study a few years ago that showed the total compensation (including lifetime pension) of a fully tenured, unionized TTC driver was comparable to that of a doctor running a private practice.



> Fifty percent sounds high. I’ve heard 33% is used when calculating budget forecasts.


So you are admitting that public sector employees are overpaid by 1/3rd? :biggrin:



> People in the private don't work more for Government employees to work less! Come on. That is just not true. They work more to earn more money, period.


That is patently false.
The average working hours in the public sector is far lower than the private sector.
Add up all the vacation time, sabbaticals, "sick" (sic !) days, WLB days, etc. and the typical public sector paper-pusher is working barely 1,500 hrs. a year vs. over 2,000 hrs. for the average private sector worker.


----------



## blueeyetea

gt_23 said:


> most CEOs don't earn $7.5M, but rather a salary of $500k-$1M.


Let’s compare apples with apples. Name me one company or two in Canada with revenues of 7.5 billion dollars with a CEO that earns 700K or less. 



gt_23 said:


> I have no idea what the actual is, but there is no way it is 33% unless you exclude the DB pension. At the firm I work for, the extras cost 32%, and that is for a DC pension and modest benefits: basic health/dental @ 80% coverage, etc.


How do you figure that it can’t be 33% because of a DB pension? The employer contributes to the plan based on a percentage of the employee’s salary. If it’s a 50/50 split 7% of salary is put into the plan on behalf of the employee, just like the employee is contributing 7% out of this paycheque. If the split is 40/60, well then pension contribution is 10% of salary from the employer compared to 7% from the employee. That goes for both defined contribution and defined pension. 

Along with vacation, health benefits, and other payments the corporation does on the employee’s behalf, benefits are calculated as representing 33% of salaries. In other words, if someone is paid $50K a year, it means the cost of his benefit will be $17K a year, representing a total of $67K. 




gt_23 said:


> We all now those who are exceptions to the rule. However, there have been many studies on this topic, just Google "public sector wage gap Canada." Not only does the gap exist, its growing bigger y/y.


There is a gap, but why is it necessarily the fault of a Government worker? It wouldn’t be because employers in the private industry don’t want to pay better wages and benefits? Or that employees accept what they are given? 

Wages for the average worker in the last 20 years have stagnated at the same time corporate profits and CEO compensation has gone up, way up. Why haven’t that profitability been trickled down to the average worker? If it had, then there's a real possibility that the wage gap between public and private workers wouldn't exist. Now, how is the Government employee to blame for this? 



gt_23 said:


> Finally, wrt your final comment, roughly 20% of Canada's workforce is self-employed. Millions more work for small businesses. Despite your assertion, there is really little practical likelihood of unionization for these people. Even if they did unionize, private sector managers are unlikely to make the kinds of concessions that politicians have with public sector unions.


Well, self-employed, means self-employed, as in they are in complete charge of what they do with their day. They decide the hours they work, what to charge, what they are paid, the prices they sell their products and services. I’m not sure why you bring them up, since they’re not in a position of being taken advantage by an employer.



gt_23 said:


> Millions more work for small businesses. Despite your assertion, there is really little practical likelihood of unionization for these people. Even if they did unionize, private sector managers are unlikely to make the kinds of concessions that politicians have with public sector unions.


Says who? A union could be formed to represent every worker in the fast food industry, or the retail industry. How does it work for the trades like mechanics and electricians? Don’t they have an association/union that dictates a set hourly rate?


----------



## blueeyetea

HaroldCrump said:


> Umm....bus drivers in union infested transit sectors, such as TTC, GO Transit, etc.
> Including over-time, of course.


Yes, including overtime. Remove the overtime and how much do they get – a lot less at around $60K. 



HaroldCrump said:


> So you are admitting that public sector employees are overpaid by 1/3rd?


Are you admitting that you’re overpaid if I tell you your benefits cost your employer a _minimum_ of 20% of your salary? Just because you don’t see it, it doesn’t mean they come free.

Benefits as a percentage of salary is a common way for an employer to figure out his overhead. 

http://www.bdc.ca/EN/advice_centre/...an_resources/Pages/compensation_benefits.aspx

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/benefits-percentage-wages-14587.html



HaroldCrump said:


> That is patently false.
> The average working hours in the public sector is far lower than the private sector


I was responding to, and I quote: “this is the grievance that many Canadians have with Gov’t workers – they continue to work harder, so the latter can work less for more. Private sector workers work for employers that demand more out of them, not so that Government employees can work less. There’s no relation between the two. 

And as an aside, I worked in the financial and banking industry for 10 years, and work hours were from 9 to 5 – so you can stop generalizing that all private industry workers have such a rough deal in terms of how many hours they work. Like anything else, it varies. 



HaroldCrump said:


> Add up all the vacation time, sabbaticals, "sick" (sic !) days, WLB days, etc. and the typical public sector paper-pusher is working barely 1,500 hrs. a year vs. over 2,000 hrs. for the average private sector worker


Specifics please, because you’re mixing things up, as usual. What are WLB days? Oh, I looked it up, Work-Life Balance days – they don’t exist as a benefit, although some entities have switched to “personal” days that replaces sick leave and are considered a cheaper alternative. Those days are either used, or paid out if not. 

Sabbaticals are standard in the teaching industry for research, not Government, unless you mean leave without pay, which is, well, without pay – so why should it count? 

Vacation and sick leave are benefits, in line with employers of the same size – so again – why make it such an issue? Someone starting to work and getting 3 weeks vacation a year against the mandatory 2 weeks isn’t that much of a stretch.


----------



## HaroldCrump

blueeyetea said:


> Yes, including overtime. Remove the overtime and how much do they get – a lot less at around $60K.


Generous overtime is part of the unionized deal.
OT rates are higher than normal pay, sometimes as much as double.
OT also counts towards pension entitlement calculations (which should not be the case).

Standard working hrs. are kept artificially low, and OT is baked into the calculations.



> I was responding to, and I quote: “this is the grievance that many Canadians have with Gov’t workers – they continue to work harder, so the latter can work less for more. Private sector workers work for employers that demand more out of them, not so that Government employees can work less. There’s no relation between the two.


I didn't say that part, but I believe it is related in the sense that the tax burden borne by private sector tax-payers is higher _because_ of the over-compensation of public sector.
Theoretically, reducing the compensation levels in the public sector should lead to a lesser tax burden for everyone.



> And as an aside, I worked in the financial and banking industry for 10 years, and work hours were from 9 to 5


Yup, that is how I came up with the numbers in the last para.
2,000 working hrs. a year is a standard rough calculation basis in the private sector.



> What are WLB days? Oh, I looked it up, Work-Life Balance days – they don’t exist as a benefit, although some entities have switched to “personal” days that replaces sick leave and are considered a cheaper alternative. Those days are either used, or paid out if not.


WLBs are in addition to sick days, and often in addition to standard vacation days.
Which level of govt. or agency has merged vacation and sick days?
There is a huge raging controversy regarding sick days in the public sector.

Most govt. jobs (provincial, federal, agencies, and crown corps.) have layers upon layers of non-working time.

Are you saying that standard working hrs. in the public sector are the same as private sector?


----------



## gt_23

HaroldCrump said:


> Fortunately Ms. Wynne doesn't have an iota of say on Canada Post matters.


I wasn't implying this...it was a cheap shot at the Liberals who spend all kinds of money on consultants to develop strategies that never get executed.


----------



## gt_23

blueeyetea said:


> Let’s compare apples with apples. Name me one company or two in Canada with revenues of 7.5 billion dollars with a CEO that earns 700K or less.


That's what I was attempting...apples to apples. You were talking about CEOs earning $7.5M salaries, yet as I already stated, their salaries are much lower than that. Is the $700k a salary? Furthermore, the majority of CEO comp is long-term and tied to earnings and stock performance, not revenues, which brings us back to my original critque of your assertion: Canada Post is losing money, the other companies are profitable. Why would you pay the CEO of a money-loser the same as money-maker?



blueeyetea said:


> How do you figure that it can’t be 33% because of a DB pension? The employer contributes to the plan based on a percentage of the employee’s salary. If it’s a 50/50 split 7% of salary is put into the plan on behalf of the employee, just like the employee is contributing 7% out of this paycheque. If the split is 40/60, well then pension contribution is 10% of salary from the employer compared to 7% from the employee. That goes for both defined contribution and defined pension.
> 
> Along with vacation, health benefits, and other payments the corporation does on the employee’s behalf, benefits are calculated as representing 33% of salaries. In other words, if someone is paid $50K a year, it means the cost of his benefit will be $17K a year, representing a total of $67K.


This is pointless to argue, as neither of us know the true figures and we're just speculating. However, even if you consider the Future Value of a Teacher's pension, in some cases it the contributions required today would be nearly as much as their annual salary. 



blueeyetea said:


> There is a gap, but why is it necessarily the fault of a Government worker? It wouldn’t be because employers in the private industry don’t want to pay better wages and benefits? Or that employees accept what they are given?
> 
> Wages for the average worker in the last 20 years have stagnated at the same time corporate profits and CEO compensation has gone up, way up. Why haven’t that profitability been trickled down to the average worker? If it had, then there's a real possibility that the wage gap between public and private workers wouldn't exist. Now, how is the Government employee to blame for this?


I never said it was their fault and I think most people would gladly except a Government job if given the chance. But just because it wasn't their fault that things are the way they are doesn't meet they can't or shouldn't change.

The absence of a trickle-down effect to private sector workers is not related to Government wages. IMO, this has been caused by an over-supply of qualified labour/workers (look at post-secondary completion rates to see why). The phenomenon is simply the labour market doing what it ought to do. Even in the public sector there is a huge over-supply of qualified workers (how long are the waitlists for teaching, firefighting and police jobs?), but protectionist policies have kept wages increasing at artificially higher rates to the point where wages are now just too high for the skills required to perform the job.



blueeyetea said:


> Well, self-employed, means self-employed, as in they are in complete charge of what they do with their day. They decide the hours they work, what to charge, what they are paid, the prices they sell their products and services. I’m not sure why you bring them up, since they’re not in a position of being taken advantage by an employer.


I think this comment shows your naivety when it comes to the private sector. I don't know too many self-employed or small business owners that can simply "set the hours they work." While its true they can probably come and go as they please, many work around the clock to keep their businesses afloat. They are their businesses. In additon, they don't "set their own prices," the market for their products/services does that. It's not as if a small business owner can simply increase his prices by 50%, take all of that increase as profit, and work fewer hours as a result.

Your comment illustrates a fundamental characteristic of Gov't workers and politicians: they have no concept of "the customer" and believe revenues can be increased as simply as turning the dial to the right.


----------



## MoneyGal

gt_23 said:


> Your comment illustrates a fundamental characteristic of Gov't workers and politicians: they have no concept of "the customer" and believe revenues can be increased as simply as turning the dial to the right.


:eagerness::eagerness::wink:

Goes with the refrain, "If the benefits are so good, why don't you get a government job?"


----------



## gt_23

MoneyGal said:


> :eagerness::eagerness::wink:
> 
> Goes with the refrain, "If the benefits are so good, why don't you get a government job?"


Well....when I was a couple years out of school, I applied for an analyst job with the Ontario Gov't. I wasn't really interested in working for the Gov't, but the midpoint on the payscale was $80k and similar jobs in the private sector were paying $60k.

The last time I checked the "competition" before the deadline there were over 300 applicants. Evidently, one must be in the 99th percentile just to get an interview...thank goodness we have our best and brightest "serving" us so selflessly.


----------



## Butters

Anyone can get a job at Canada Post, they post positions all the time, they can't keep people around... smaller cities would be hard to get a job though.

starting wage is like 18 bucks an hour now... puralotor, fedex, etc... all pay around the same, *if not more*

We had a big power point meeting about our financials, never had that in my 6 years of working there
They said we are now a parcel delivery job now, that sometimes delivers letters


----------



## HaroldCrump

MoneyGal said:


> Goes with the refrain, "If the benefits are so good, why don't you get a government job?"


In other words, _Let them eat cake_ [circa 1782]


----------



## blueeyetea

HaroldCrump said:


> Generous overtime is part of the unionized deal.
> OT rates are higher than normal pay, sometimes as much as double.
> OT also counts towards pension entitlement calculations (which should not be the case).
> 
> Standard working hrs. are kept artificially low, and OT is baked into the calculations.


A bus driver doesn't decide to work overtime on a whim - it's scheduled by his supervisor and/or their boss. In Ontario, by law, hours above 44 hours are paid time and 1/2 - yes, in the private sector as well. 



HaroldCrump said:


> Which level of govt. or agency has merged vacation and sick days?
> There is a huge raging controversy regarding sick days in the public sector.


Canada Post for one. Look up the agreements for CUPW and UPCE. They get 7 days personal leave. They either use them or they get paid out in cash. 




HaroldCrump said:


> Are you saying that standard working hrs. in the public sector are the same as private sector?


Yes. They work a 7.5 hour day = 37.5 hours a week.


----------



## MoneyGal

This NEVER gets old, I swear. NEVER. 

So do you mean to say that posties are limited to a total of seven days of sick, vacation and "personal" days per year? Do tell.


----------



## SpIcEz

blueeyetea said:


> They get 7 days personal leave. They either use them or they get paid out in cash.


Thats an extra weeks vacation. Use it or paid in cash. VERY few private sector employees get that FREEBIE.

Many people I know in the public sector (here in Quebec) after only a few years of service have 4 weeks vacation, 7 days sick leave, 7 days personal days. All can be used or paid in cash at the end of the year or accumulated year over year.

THAT IS 6 WEEKS VACATION.

Find me a private sector job in Canada that pays 6 weeks vacation in a year after only a few years seniority.


----------



## blueeyetea

gt_23 said:


> That's what I was attempting...apples to apples. You were talking about CEOs earning $7.5M salaries, yet as I already stated, their salaries are much lower than that. Is the $700k a salary?


I wasn’t talking of CEOs earning $7.5M in salaries. I was asking you to name one company in Canada with revenues/sales of $7.5 billion that paid their CEO $700,000. 



gt_23 said:


> Furthermore, the majority of CEO comp is long-term and tied to earnings and stock performance, not revenues, which brings us back to my original critque of your assertion: Canada Post is losing money, the other companies are profitable. Why would you pay the CEO of a money-loser the same as money-maker?


That’s what CEO’s want us, the general public, to believe, when research by economists is starting to show that the compensation they receive versus the perceived value they bring to the company just isn’t there. Not enough room to get into it, but you can listen to Thomas Picketty talk about it on CBC’s Sunday Morning at the link below

http://www.cbc.ca/thesundayedition/shows/2014/05/25/piketty/



gt_23 said:


> Canada Post is losing money, the other companies are profitable. Why would you pay the CEO of a money-loser the same as money-maker?


I’ve already said he’s earning less than other companies that are making more in revenues. Just like other CEO, his bonus is tied to profits, which he didn’t get last year. 



gt_23 said:


> This is pointless to argue, as neither of us know the true figures and we're just speculating. However, even if you consider the Future Value of a Teacher's pension, in some cases it the contributions required today would be nearly as much as their annual salary.


You brought it up and you’re talking about an event that hasn’t materialised. 

The future value of pensions is a problem today because current low markets return dictate how expensive it would be do buy annuities to current employees, which would require special payments to the fund as a whole. It’s an entry on the books that isn’t attributable to individual employees, so it’s not factored in as benefit payment. 

Five years ago and before, market returns were responsible for the plan having a surplus where there was no need to make special payments. That surplus was also not attributable to individual employees. 




gt_23 said:


> I never said it was their fault and I think most people would gladly except a Government job if given the chance. But just because it wasn't their fault that things are the way they are doesn't meet they can't or shouldn't change.


But you are using the gap between private and public sector employees are a reason for the change. I’m reading that the reason that public sector employees should earn less is because private sector employees earn less. It’s always “well, I don’t get that, why should they?” The question to ask is: why am I paid less than a government employee? 



gt_23 said:


> IMO, this has been caused by an over-supply of qualified labour/workers (look at post-secondary completion rates to see why). The phenomenon is simply the labour market doing what it ought to do.


Yes, something I agree with, but it’s also because businesses are failing to invest in new ventures and their workforce. They’re too busy cutting costs by moving their operations to India and China. I know it’s more complicated that that, but still. 



gt_23 said:


> but protectionist policies have kept wages increasing at artificially higher rates to the point where wages are now just too high for the skills required to perform the job.


In the last contracts I’ve seen, a 3 to 4% increase over 3 years is barely in line with the rate of inflation, and it’s been going on for years, so I don’t know where you get the idea that wages have increased at high rates. 

A driver at Purolator, FedEx, or UPS earns close to what a CPC driver does. Same skill set, approximately same pay. By your definition Purolator, FedEx or UPS employees shouldn’t be entitled their generous wages as well. 



gt_23 said:


> I think this comment shows your naivety when it comes to the private sector. I don't know too many self-employed or small business owners that can simply "set the hours they work." While its true they can probably come and go as they please, many work around the clock to keep their businesses afloat. They are their businesses. In additon, they don't "set their own prices," the market for their products/services does that. It's not as if a small business owner can simply increase his prices by 50%, take all of that increase as profit, and work fewer hours as a result.


Why are they in business for themselves, if not to be their own boss and not answer to anybody when it comes to the work they do and how they conduct business? That they work around the clock is in direct relation to the contract they’ve negotiated and agreed to. 
Self-employed and small business owners are subject to market forces, certainly, but their working relationship with whomever they’re doing business with is entirely different than the employer/employee one. 



gt_23 said:


> . It's not as if a small business owner can simply increase his prices by 50%, take all of that increase as profit, and work fewer hours as a result.


And you call me naïve. The prices are set by the market, but he can nickel and dime his employees to minimum wage while distributing the profits via paycheques to his wife and kids, who don’t work there, among other things. 

The chances of a self-employed or business owner being exploited are practically non-existent compared to an employee working for a salary in a business. I’m not saying the self-employed or business owner doesn’t have work obligations, but no one will make him start ½ hour early without pay by threatening to fire him. There’s a big difference in the power one has over the other. The self-employed or business owner doesn’t need the protection of a union. His employees does. 



gt_23 said:


> Your comment illustrates a fundamental characteristic of Gov't workers and politicians: they have no concept of "the customer" and believe revenues can be increased as simply as turning the dial to the right.


You’ve lost me there. Are you trying to say that Government workers and politicians don’t know how businesses works?


----------



## blueeyetea

MoneyGal said:


> This NEVER gets old, I swear. NEVER.
> 
> So do you mean to say that posties are limited to a total of seven days of sick, vacation and "personal" days per year? Do tell.


They get vacation as per their seniority. They no longer accumulate or get sick leave. Instead they get seven days of personal leave a year.


----------



## blueeyetea

SpIcEz said:


> Thats an extra weeks vacation. Use it or paid in cash. VERY few private sector employees get that FREEBIE.


I worked in the private industry and I was entitled to 5 days paid sick leave a year. Those same companies are still around with the same policy. 



SpIcEz said:


> THAT IS 6 WEEKS VACATION.
> Find me a private sector job in Canada that pays 6 weeks vacation in a year after only a few years seniority.


Go work at Bell. I have relatives who do and with their seniority they get even more.

What's stopping you from negotiating more vacation time and sick leave at the next job you apply for instead of just saying yes to what they give you? Just like the next guy working with you might be earning a few thousands dollars more because he asked, it's entirely reasonable to ask for more vacation if you've been in the workforce for a number of years. I've seen it done and accepted.


----------



## MoneyGal

I should make a Bingo card.


----------



## Butters

Costco is just as good as Canada Post
they did make more wage tiers about 7 years ago, so it takes longer to make top wage... but pretty similar... 7 days off, after 2 years you get 3 weeks vacation actually get your 4th vacation week faster at costco.. bonuses at costco... company matching 50% up to 1000 dollars in RRSP, free to buy costco stock  4$ an hour premium sunday

Fedex, puralotor, UPS, air canada, manitoba hydro, there are tons of jobs that pay similar, with equal benefits.... not to mention anything with oil in alberta or fire fighting up north, but thats government



We had a meeting about our finances, they now call us drivers, that SOMETIMES deliver letters


----------



## SpIcEz

blueeyetea said:


> What's stopping you from negotiating more vacation time and sick leave at the next job you apply for instead of just saying yes to what they give you? Just like the next guy working with you might be earning a few thousands dollars more because he asked, it's entirely reasonable to ask for more vacation if you've been in the workforce for a number of years. I've seen it done and accepted.


First off, I get what you are saying, actually I AM the one who tells others "Why didint you negotiate?" I do every time. 37 years old, 11 years industry experience, but only 5 at this place. 4 weeks vacation, plus I'm in sales, so my schedule is my own and I work from home 20% of the time.

My point is, those benefits you've described above are most likely at big shops (Bell as you mentioned) or Unionised shops.

Seriously, when people in the public sector, point to the "private sector" and mention Bell, Automotive workers (Ford, GM, etc...), Mining operations, Oil in Alberta... that's when I get REALLY pissed off.

You nitpick highly unionised areas and compare yourselves only to them, but not the average worker.

I seriously feel like some of you replying here need a slap up side the head so you can come back to reality where most Canadians live.

There are 3 Classes of people (ok probably more, but lets keep it simple):

1. Rich
2. Unionised workers (private or public) living very well with lots of security and no worries
3. Average worker, manual, sales, clerk, doesnt matter (these are the ones working hard and paying for the 2 above classes)

I give up. Keep living in unicorns and fairy dust land. I just hope it doesnt hurt you too much when your bubble pops and you loose your pensions and all benifits out of NOWHERE. Because RIGHT NOW, your dream land, is bleeding the rest of us DRY.


----------



## gt_23

SpIcEz said:


> There are 3 Classes of people (ok probably more, but lets keep it simple):
> 
> 1. Rich
> 2. Unionised workers (private or public) living very well with lots of security and no worries
> 3. Average worker, manual, sales, clerk, doesnt matter (these are the ones working hard and paying for the 2 above classes)


I think it's more like:

1. Rich: don't need to work, can live off invested capital
2. Governing Class: administrators (public and private) and Gov't workers; generally have pensions, job security, etc.
3. Working Class: can be white/blue collar, self-employed, small biz owners; generally no pensions, little job security, etc.
4. Poor: subsistence provided via 1-3 above

Canada used to have a "middle class" somewhere between 2 and 3 above, but it has been eroding with the size of Government and administrators (i.e. "overhead") in private firms. I think that most Canadians probably sit in Class 3 today.


----------



## blueeyetea

SpIcEz said:


> My point is, those benefits you've described above are most likely at big shops (Bell as you mentioned) or Unionised shops.


No, the point is that you complained that 



SpIcEz said:


> THAT IS 6 WEEKS VACATION.
> Find me a private sector job in Canada that pays 6 weeks vacation in a year after only a few years seniority.


And examples of companies in the private sector that offered good pay and benefits were provided, which you didn’t like, so now you’re ranting about the “average worker” versus employees in big companies in the private sector. Case in point: 



SpIcEz said:


> You nitpick highly unionised areas and compare yourselves only to them, but not the average worker.


You admit to negotiating your current working conditions, so I don’t see how you can justify your rant. You get 4 weeks of vacation after five years with your current employer and call yourself an “average worker”. Compared to a fast food worker, your working conditions are a lot better than what they have to suffer through. Using the logic you’re following, the disparity between them and you should be equalized by downgrading your pay, hours, and vacations entitlements to match theirs.


----------



## HaroldCrump

blueeyetea said:


> Using the logic you’re following, the disparity between them and you should be equalized by downgrading your pay, hours, and vacations entitlements to match theirs.


You can cherry pick examples of unionized and regulated companies to "prove" that average benefits in the private sector are similar to the public sector.
Your objective is to prove in a perverse way that, ergo, public service workers are not being over-compensated.

In the private sector, wages and benefits of workers are supported by the profitability of the underlying business, and the skill level required for the job.
I don't know what line of work SpIcEz is in (and I won't speak on her behalf), but chances are she is not a fast food worker, as you put it.

In the public sector, the compensation package is determined, not by market conditions, but by collective bargaining.
This is a highly rigged and perverse means for setting compensation of public service workers.

There is no justification for administrative, paper-pushing workers to be unionized, including teachers.
I don't even see the need for bus drivers, train drivers, cops, nurses, etc. to be unionized.
The average, private sector tax-payer is up against a behemoth union that is working against public interests.

Those salaries and benefits should be set by open market hiring policies.


----------



## gt_23

HaroldCrump said:


> In the public sector, the compensation package is determined, not by market conditions, but by collective bargaining.
> This is a highly rigged and perverse means for setting compensation of public service workers.


As in a gun to your head.

The public vs. private total compensation gap has been well documented from a number of different sources, soon to grow larger in Ontario over the next 4 years.


----------



## blueeyetea

HaroldCrump said:


> In the public sector, the compensation package is determined, not by market conditions, but by collective bargaining.
> This is a highly rigged and perverse means for setting compensation of public service workers.


And where are you getting your information that compensation packages aren’t set by market conditions? Wage increases haven't gone up that much, with years in between when salaries have been frozen. Benefits have been cut and are continuing to be cut. Security of employment have been removed. Permanent positions have gone down to be replaced by less secure temporary contracts. Sick leave is on the way out. It's all about saving money and downgrading compensation. 



HaroldCrump said:


> In the private sector, wages and benefits of workers are supported by the profitability of the underlying business, and the skill level required for the job


And how has the private sector improved Canadian’s lives in the last twenty years, hmmm? CEO compensation and corporate profits have gone steadily up while salaries have remained the same for over 20 years. Where is all that money flowing to? It’s not research and development. It’s not investment in the workforce. (No, they leave the training to the school system, universities and colleges, subsidized by you, the taxpayer.) 

Interest rates have been at an all-time low for the last ten years, yet, there hasn’t been any investments to stimulate the economy and/or elevate Canadian’s standard of living. Everything is about cutting costs, moving labour off shore for the sake of more profits and share prices that do nothing for the economy. 

I keep bringing this up, but I never get an answer. What’s your theory on all of this, apart for banishing unions? It’s not like the capital to invest hasn’t been available. There’s even an argument to be made that the inflated compensation in the private sector to their top brass is stifling the economy. Just look at the banks. All major banks posted profits close to $2 billion each for the 1st quarter of 2014, yet lending practices to stimulate the economy haven't been loosened. 

I’m not against companies in the private industry who pay what they can afford, but they seem to forget they are also entities with social responsibilities to society and to their employees. When business goes up and profits come in, they have a tendency not share the extra wealth with their workers. We’re at a period in history where it’s about the benefits and profits flowing to the top and staying there, while exploiting their labourers. Walmart is an extreme example of this, with a good portion of their workers in the US having to rely on social assistance and food banks to get by. The Walton family are billionaires because they exploit their workers and suppliers. Union busting at it’s best! 

Is that really what you think is better for Canada? 



HaroldCrump said:


> There is no justification for administrative, paper-pushing workers to be unionized, including teachers.
> I don't even see the need for bus drivers, train drivers, cops, nurses, etc. to be unionized.
> The average, private sector tax-payer is up against a behemoth union that is working against public interests.


Well, you would think so, considering you’re so entrenched in your opinion that it’s a waste of tax payer’s money that you’re blind to any other reason. 

According to you, they should do like the private industry and convince their employees they should be so grateful for their jobs, it’s an affront to common sense they should even be paid. Oh, why not go ahead and just privatize the whole thing. It would be interesting to see all those sectors run by the private industry. 

There’s a reason why they’re called public sector. It’s so that everyone has access to them, whether they can afford to or not. If it was left to profit seeking private sector they’d cut everything that doesn't bring a profit. 



HaroldCrump said:


> Those salaries and benefits should be set by open market hiring policies


And how would that improve to the economy? The majority of Canadians are already working by open market policies and companies have taken advantage. They’ve kept salaries at the same level for the last 20 years on top of cutting back on benefits like pensions. 

What about their responsibility to pay a living wage where someone has enough money to cover their basic needs, own a house, and save for retirement? 

On the other hand, why do you think CEO compensation have gone so high in the last thirty years? The rise of their compensation above and beyond the average worker is in direct relation to when policies changes to make their compensation public. The publication created a benchmark that every CEO began comparing themselves to. Not to be outdone by someone else, they began demanding better packages for the themselves.


----------



## Beaver101

Update: 



> *Canada Post will make home delivery exemptions *
> 
> Canadians will still be able to get letters delivered to their homes – but only if they have a doctor’s note ....
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/canada-post-will-make-home-delivery-exemptions/article20054805/


 . .. another inane idea of its brilliant management. :rolleyes2: :rolleyes2:


----------



## carverman

blueeyetea said:


> And how has the private sector improved Canadian’s lives in the last twenty years, hmmm? CEO compensation and corporate profits have gone steadily up while salaries have remained the same for over 20 years. Where is all that money flowing to? *It’s not research and development. It’s not investment in the workforce. * (No, they leave the training to the school system, universities and colleges, subsidized by you, the taxpayer.)


I am with you on this one. Corporations are no longer interested in training their employees and the colleges and universities are out of touch with the reality of today. The other problem is that except for heavy industry where the labour in manufacturing cannot be directly exported to Asia, the jobs that the past generations had, are drying up fast. Almost everything is made in China or else where in consumer goods.

Automobiles are an exception, but even those still manufactured in NA, Canada especially, are being reduced as far as models and old plants are being slowly made obsolete throwing any non-pensionalble workers into a dire economy that hasn't seen any expansion for quite a while. Eventually the Asian manufactures will force the big three to
make some serious economic decisions..but as long as they are still turning a profit..they will continue. 

Corporate greed, especially in upper management is more common these days. An example is my former employer Nortel (Networks) where upper management, CEO + CFO and other high level division managers in the chain of command, with stock options and salaries + performance bonuses; took a well rounded balanced former communications company, who spent a good percentage of their profits at one time on R&D, down the slippery slope
towards bankruptcy in 2009. 

As the economy weakened from 2003 onwards, and US orders dried up slowly, and orders on the books were
cancelled, the directors and the *upper management decided to play a game to fool investors and make their bottom line look better than it was..to still collect their huge multimillion dollar bonuses.*

After the deception was discovered, the stock plummeted fast to penny stock..signalling the end of what was once "the Canada goose that laid the golden eggs"..and throwing thousands of high tech workers out of work. 

There were attempted lawsuits against the CEO and CFO, but none were successful..they played the game very well and even though the
investors sued some former Nortel executives for attempted fraud..in the end the lawsuits were not successful.

I do pity the next generation coming into the work force. Sure there will be always room for professionals, but the majority of them will have trouble finding jobs now and in the future. 



> Interest rates have been at an all-time low for the last ten years, yet, there hasn’t been any investments to stimulate the economy and/or elevate Canadian’s standard of living. Everything is about cutting costs, moving labour off shore for the sake of more profits and share prices that do nothing for the economy.


There is a point where all this cost cutting to maximize profits will backfire and stagnate the economy even lower than it is now.


----------



## AltaRed

Beaver101 said:


> Update:
> 
> . .. another inane idea of its brilliant management. :rolleyes2: :rolleyes2:


It is terrible PR but some method is necessary to separate the truly needy from the lazy. I, as a taxpayer, should not have to subsidize the capable.


----------



## Beaver101

It is more than just terrible "PR" by getting the truly needy to obtain doctors' notes ($) for mail-delivery. Hope you read the news piece. CP bloated management has to do alittle more work on this. 

Hate to break the bad news but all taxpayers are now subsidizing plenty of "capables" - on government payrolls.


----------



## Nemo2

Reminds me of my younger days........"Nemo can't pick up his mail today. Signed: _My Doctor._"


----------



## AltaRed

Beaver101 said:


> Hate to break the bad news but all taxpayers are now subsidizing plenty of "capables" - on government payrolls.


Yes we are but taxpayers have to say enough is enough sometime. I am even an advocate of severely reducing OAS thresholds so that clawback happens much sooner. Those earning $71k or more do not need any social welfare. Time to stand up and be counted.


----------



## Beaver101

Nemo2 said:


> Reminds me of my younger days........"Nemo can't pick up his mail today. Signed: _My Doctor._"


 ... I bet 'cause Nemo is out fishing (or sailing?) for the day. :biggrin:


----------



## Beaver101

AltaRed said:


> Yes we are *but taxpayers have to say enough is enough sometime*. I am even an advocate of severely reducing OAS thresholds so that clawback happens much sooner. Those earning $71k or more do not need any social welfare. *Time to stand up and be counted*.


 ... how?


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... I bet 'cause Nemo is out fishing (or sailing?) for the day. :biggrin:


How can he when he spends most of his day with quoting and replying on CMF? It can be a full time job, you know.:biggrin:


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... how?


Should be quite simple actually..just submit a form to Service Canada that you feel that the gov't is paying too much benefits when your household
income exceeds $71k. Oh..you were looking for a means to report your retired friends and neighbours from collecting OAS? 
I'm sure there must be a snitch line somewhere to report these abusers. 

OAS Benefit: 
This figure is also adjusted each year for inflation. For every dollar ($1.00) of income above the threshold, the amount of basic OAS pension reduces by 15 cents. *For example, if your taxable net income was $70,000, then you would be above the clawback threshold by $2,332 which in turn would mean that you would lose $349.80 per year of OAS or $29.15 per month.* If you qualified for the maximum OAS, you would be losing just under 9% of your OAS pension income. Here’s some clawback amounts at different income levels:

Lets see here...you collect OAS and winter in Florida...
Income clawback OAS
$69,562.00	$0.00 $6,481.44
$70,000.00	$65.70	$6,415.74
$75,000.00	$815.70	$5,665.74
$80,000.00	$1,565.70	$4,915.74
$85,000.00	$2,315.70	$4,165.74
$90,000.00	$3,065.70	$3,415.74
$95,000.00	$3,815.70	$2,665.74
$100,000.00$4,565.70	$1,915.74

Who says "crime" doesn't pay?:biggrin:


----------



## AltaRed

I think Beaver was talking in the broader sense, e.g. excessively high public service wages, too many public service jobs - period (think lottery commissions, gaming commissions, gov't liquor store cashiers, gov't owned highway maintenance organizations, letter carriers, all which should be out-sourced, etc.), too many loafs on the payroll and lack of chucking the deadwood, too many senior bureaucrats, executives and managers, too much performance pay for salaried folk just showing up to work and having a pulse, contract increeases exceeding inflation. The list goes on. Think about it.....why do we have so much of our activities managed and carried out by the civil service?

One has to become an activist and use all the tools in that tool drawer to start putting the heat on. Media attention, petitions, sit-ins, letters to the editor/MP/media, blogs, social media, etc, etc. It is time for the private sector to get angry.

Added: Not to appear that I am picking on wages and salaries specifically (though a huge component of the spending ledger), think also of the waste in the procurement processes in the last 20 years for military equipment. If a publicly traded company screwed up as bad as Ottawa has on these files, the CEO and others would be fired, stock would have plummeted and the company likely taken out in an acquistion.


----------



## carverman

AltaRed said:


> too many loafs on the payroll and lack of chucking the deadwood, too many senior bureaucrats, executives and managers, too much performance pay for salaried folk just showing up to work and having a pulse, contract increases exceeding inflation. The list goes on. Think about it.....*why do we have so much of our activities managed and carried out by the civil service*?


Let me guess...hmmmm?..because the govt now is the biggest employer of "deadwood", those that don't have the skills to work anywhere else in the private sector..because they are: unskilled, lazy, just want to collect a paycheck and a pension later, and generally..comfortable in their own little environment with the "walls" they have built around themselves.....but..OTOH..
they go out and spend that gov't paycheck on all sorts of consumer goods..houses, cars, fridges, flat screen tvs, furniture for your house..and an ottoman..
"If I had a million dollars..... (If I had a million dol-lars)"

"If I had a secure government job, 
I'd buy you a house .......(I would buy you a house)
If I had a cushy gov't job..... (If I had a cushy gov't job)
I'd buy you furniture for your house
(Maybe a nice chesterfield or an ottoman),
If I had that steady paycheck.... (If I had that steady paycheck)
I'd buy you a Toyota (a nice reliable automobile)
If I had good gov't jo-o--ob ....I'd buy your love!"



> One has to become an activist and use all the tools in that tool drawer to start putting the heat on. Media attention, petitions, sit-ins, letters to the editor/MP/media, blogs, social media, etc, etc. It is time for the private sector to get angry.


You want to help to kill what's left of the "artificial economy" in Canada, by "firing" all the silly service workers, most of the military (who stand around just drinking Tim Hortons and our tax dollars), clean out the prisons, (cost us about $75K or more to keep each prisoner in max security...and they do NOTHING to contribute to the economy...at least the seniors collecting that big gov't pension AND OAS, 

....buy groceries, cars, vacations, home improvements, golf stuff, go shopping, go lawn bowling,
pay for pre-arranged funerals and, eventually leave some of their estate to the gov't in the form of probate fees.

You want to cut them off from their "God given right" of collecting OAS?..why we need to stand up out of our wheelchairs and shake our canes angrily at you for even suggesting such a draconian thought! :biggrin:











> Added: Not to appear that I am picking on wages and salaries specifically (though a huge component of the spending ledger), think also of the waste in the procurement processes in the last 20 years for military equipment. *If a publicly traded company screwed up as bad as Ottawa has on these files, the CEO and others would be fired, stock would have plummeted and the company likely taken out in an acquistion*.



I guess we all should be happy you weren't elected King then..it could mean the end of Canada as we know it. :biggrin:


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> How can he when he spends most of his day with quoting and replying on CMF? It can be a full time job, you know.:biggrin:


 .. oops, I should have said " ... Nemo *was* out fishing (or sailing) ... " since he said "Reminds me of my *younger* days ..." . Guess who was playing hokey ... and working harder now than he was back then. :biggrin:


----------



## Beaver101

AltaRed said:


> I think *Beaver was talking in the broader sense, e.g. excessively high public service wages, too many public service jobs *- period (think lottery commissions, gaming commissions, gov't liquor store cashiers, gov't owned highway maintenance organizations, letter carriers, all which should be out-sourced, etc.), *too many loafs on the payroll and lack of chucking the deadwood, too many senior bureaucrats, executives and managers, too much performance pay for salaried folk just showing up to work and having a pulse, contract increeases exceeding inflation. The list goes on.* Think about it.....why do we have so much of our activities managed and carried out by the civil service?
> 
> One has to become an activist and use all the tools in that tool drawer to start putting the heat on. Media attention, petitions, sit-ins, letters to the editor/MP/media, blogs, social media, etc, etc. It is time for the private sector to get angry.
> 
> Added: Not to appear that I am picking on wages and salaries specifically (though a huge component of the spending ledger), think also of the waste in the procurement processes in the last 20 years for military equipment. If a publicly traded company screwed up as bad as Ottawa has on these files, the CEO and others would be fired, stock would have plummeted and the company likely taken out in an acquistion.


 ... bingo!


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Should be quite simple actually..just submit a form to Service Canada that you feel that the gov't is paying too much benefits when your household
> income exceeds $71k. Oh..you were looking for a means to report your retired friends and neighbours from collecting OAS?
> I'm sure there must be a snitch line somewhere to report these abusers.


 ... no retired friends nor close neighbours to report for that matter. One neighbour is a partying bunch ... the other one, a couple of working stiffs with elderly parents and kids to support (or is it the other way around) :confused2:? 

I am definitely sure that table will not apply to me when it comes to my turn to collect in a few decades so no worries here. :smilet-digitalpoint


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## HaroldCrump

carverman said:


> but..OTOH..they go out and spend that gov't paycheck on all sorts of consumer goods..houses, cars, fridges, flat screen tvs, furniture for your house..and an ottoman..


It doesn't work like that, carver.
Doling out big, fat paychecks and pensions for unproductive work via deficit financing does not create organic, long-term growth for the economy.
Perhaps that is one reason why most of the Western "welfare state" economies are languishing, such as France, Spain, and even ours to some extent (although we are arguably slightly better off).

If this logic were true, all governments around the world could simply hire all the unemployed people, give them handsome salaries, and they would spend it on consumer goods and boost the economy.
It is no more than a Ponzi scheme.

Keynes' depression-era mantra of the government hiring unemployed people to "dig holes and fill them up" does not work.



> I guess we all should be happy you weren't elected King then..it could mean the end of Canada as we know it


I disagree...we need better accountability in the public sector.
The whole sector has become a cushy, comfortable, old boys club.
No political party dare rattle the cage.

The unions have worked out a collective bargaining system that ensures them steady, above-average raises, iron-clad protection against demotions or layoffs, a predictable and steady growth path regardless of performance, etc.
The whole system is symbolic of a big fat, happy, panda basking in the sun by the river all day long.


----------



## Beaver101

Feedback from the President of CMA:

http://www.thestar.com/business/2014/08/14/doctors_urge_canada_post_to_drop_doctors_note_requirement.html ... 

as if doctors have nothing to do ...
as if privacy is not a concern ...
as if security is not a concern ...

CP's bloated management needs to work alittle harder ...


----------



## Nemo2

Beaver101 said:


> Nemo *was* out fishing (or sailing) ... " since he said "Reminds me of my *younger* days ..." . Guess who was playing hokey ... and working harder now than he was back then. :biggrin:


Working? Something I never aspired to as a lifelong occupation, and undertook as little as possible.......as one of my former bosses once said..."You don't do much, but what little you DO do, you screw up".


----------



## blueeyetea

AltaRed said:


> Added: Not to appear that I am picking on wages and salaries specifically (though a huge component of the spending ledger), think also of the waste in the procurement processes in the last 20 years for military equipment. If a publicly traded company screwed up as bad as Ottawa has on these files, the CEO and others would be fired, stock would have plummeted and the company likely taken out in an acquistion.


I would bet there's as much waste in the procurement processes of the private sector than the public sector. And I might add, senior execs in the private sector are in a much better position to influence the company to hand over contracts to their friends. 

The reason you know about the military contract, it's because of the Access to Information Act that the Government is subject to. Any Canadian Citizen can look through the Government Books and request information and see contracts, with some exceptions. That kind of information in a private company, whether good or bad, is inaccessible by the public, so there's no way to know unless it gets revealed through a court case.


----------



## blueeyetea

AltaRed said:


> The list goes on. Think about it.....why do we have so much of our activities managed and carried out by the civil service?


Because what economics call the cost disease. There's no profit in it and they can't get any more efficient then they already are. Most of the economy of scales have been achieved by now. Take your pick of industry handled by a Government, and you'll find that people working in these industries can't be replaced by machines and robots (yet). Go ahead and try to shift those jobs to the private sector, see what happens. All they'd do is cut services to cut costs. 

Police, fire brigade, teachers, health care, and educated civil servants are expensive and their salaries will keep going up if you want an adequate level of service. You can't cut back on policing if you don't want crime to go up. You can't cut education services if you want your workforce to stay employed. You can't cut healthcare if you don't want more people to die. Stop paying those workers what they're worth, and they'll all move to the private sector because the pay is better. Who will be left to do the work? Uneducated, unskilled workers who will settle for cheaper wages because they can't get a better job. Really, that's what you'd prefer?


----------



## HaroldCrump

blueeyetea said:


> That kind of information in a private company, whether good or bad, is inaccessible by the public, so there's no way to know unless it gets revealed through a court case.


And there should not be a way to reveal the information either.
A private company is, well, private.

Publicly traded corporations have open books, and are required to report a whole bunch of information to the regulators such as the OSC and SEC (for cross-listed companies).
All that information is accessible for free.

Private and public corporations are not tax-payer funded, therefore, no one has the right to demand their books (other than shareholders and regulators).
Govt. agencies and departments are tax-funded therefore the public has full right to know everything.



> The reason you know about the military contract, it's because of the Access to Information Act that the Government is subject to. Any Canadian Citizen can look through the Government Books and request information and see contracts, with some exceptions.


Yeah, well, the Access to Information Act does not prevent fraud, misappropriation of public funds, and other such crimes.
When in trouble, the rogue bureaucrats and officials simply destroy the evidence.
For instance, we still don't know who deleted the e-mails pertaining to the gas plants.


----------



## blueeyetea

HaroldCrump said:


> It doesn't work like that, carver.
> Doling out big, fat paychecks and pensions for unproductive work via deficit financing does not create organic, long-term growth for the economy.
> Perhaps that is one reason why most of the Western "welfare state" economies are languishing, such as France, Spain, and even ours to some extent (although we are arguably slightly better off).


Quit saying that the work is unproductive. The same happens in the private sector, you just don't know about it. If you knew anything about working in the Government, you'd know that the work is at a level of scrutiny unparalleled in the public sector. That's what Canadians want, and that's what they get, but it comes at a cost. To say you want more accountability in the public sector is laughable considering you resent having to pay for it. 

The reason why economies are languishing are because the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, wiping out the middle class where the potential for economic growth is the strongest. The wealth is staying at the top and not being redistributed with the result that it doesn't stimulate the economy. Case in point: taxes for corporations in Canada have gone from 90% in 1992 to 15% in 2010. Salaries in real dollars for individuals have remained the same during the same period. How else do you explain this? Who is to blame for such a situation? 



HaroldCrump said:


> The whole sector has become a cushy, comfortable, old boys club.
> No political party dare rattle the cage.
> 
> The unions have worked out a collective bargaining system that ensures them steady, above-average raises, iron-clad protection against demotions or layoffs, a predictable and steady growth path regardless of performance, etc.


Quit putting it at the feet of union workers only. The only reason you're blaming this on unions is because you're comparing it to what's happening in the private sector, which, according to you, should be a model for the public sector. The private sector isn't working any better with salaries not going up in over 20 years. 

The problem is the reverse. Corporations and the private sector aren't stepping up to their social responsibility of providing workers with good working conditions and living wages. How many full time jobs were created in the last year compared to part-time? How many of these part time jobs were created to prevent the qualification for benefits? That wouldn't have anything to do with keeping profits at the top, now would it? The downside is that the Canadian people are accepting these conditions, and again, put the blame on civil servants for economic problems. 

Funny that political parties aren't rattling that cage either.


----------



## blueeyetea

HaroldCrump said:


> And there should not be a way to reveal the information either.
> A private company is, well, private..


I'm not saying they shouldn't stay private. I was responding to the comment " If a publicly traded company screwed up as bad as Ottawa has on these files, the CEO and others would be fired, stock would have plummeted and the company likely taken out in an acquistion". The chances of the general public being aware of a company mishandling of a contract and a CEO getting fired over are is very slim. It never happens unless there's a court case. 



HaroldCrump said:


> Yeah, well, the Access to Information Act does not prevent fraud, misappropriation of public funds, and other such crimes.
> When in trouble, the rogue bureaucrats and officials simply destroy the evidence.


Why are you bringing this up? People are human. Don't insinuate that the private sector is immune to such shenanigans. It's probably worse because their actions can't be scrutinized in as much detail.


----------



## HaroldCrump

blueeyetea said:


> I'm not saying they shouldn't stay private. I was responding to the comment " If a publicly traded company screwed up as bad as Ottawa has on these files, the CEO and others would be fired, stock would have plummeted and the company likely taken out in an acquistion". The chances of the general public being aware of a company mishandling of a contract and a CEO getting fired over are is very slim. It never happens unless there's a court case.


That is not true at all.
AltaRed's statement specifically mentioned publicly traded company.
Their financial records are open to the public.
Incompetence does get out, and management does get fired.

Yes, there are highly publicized, outrageous accounting scandals like Enron, WorldCom, Calpine, etc.
But that is not limited to the private sector.

And it does not take a lawsuit or a parliamentary inquiry to uncover incompetence, accounting irregularities, etc. in publicly traded corporations.

Whereas, in the public sector, everything needs to be investigated by the AG, a committee, the RCMP, etc.

The market imposes more accountability on public companies than do the tax-payers on their elected officials and paid bureaucrats.



> It's probably worse because their actions can't be scrutinized in as much detail.


In the case of public corporations, it can be, and often is.
There are scores of instances where a financial journalist, an analyst, or even a layperson uncovered fraud/accounting issues among companies, and it was dealt with swiftly and brutally.

People are human when it comes to govt. bureaucrats and politicians, but are not human when it comes to private businesses?


----------



## HaroldCrump

blueeyetea said:


> Quit saying that the work is unproductive.
> ...
> Quit putting it at the feet of union workers only.


Work that is grossly overpaid by society is indeed unproductive and does not create long term growth for the economy and society.
Esp. when it is funded via high taxation, deficits, and public debt.

The rate of growth in the Sunshine list, for example, or the overall growth in the public sector workforce vis-à-vis the growth rate of the GDP or even inflation is neither productive nor sustainable.
The Sunshine list has been growing at 5x times rate of GDP growth (which already includes govt. spending btw).
The salaries on the list has been growing at much higher rates than inflation.

Our job numbers are showing that public sector hiring is feverishly trying to replace private sector hiring.
The govt. is trying desperately to keep the unemployment numbers low by hiring in the public sector to offset private sector job losses, not reckoning that perhaps maybe these things might just be related.

For instance, in Ontario, the govt. has been hiring like drunken sailors about to set sail on a treasure hunting quest, while the private sector growth is almost non existent.
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/09/private-public-sector-wage-gap-growing

In case you have followed the recent changes to pension entitlement being introduced in Quebec, here is what they are saying:

_The Association of Suburban Muncipalities on the Island of Montreal said that according to its analysis, the average municipal worker is earning at least a third more than his provincial counterpart.
Trent said the salaries of unionized city workers are 18 percent higher than that of civil servants, and that when benefits are taken into account the total remuneration is 38 percent higher._

Property taxes have increased significantly and residents are not ready to pay any more.

This is just one of many examples.

You cannot have a lopsided social structure where one group becomes primarily rent seekers.



> The reason why economies are languishing are because the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, wiping out the middle class where the potential for economic growth is the strongest.


So we need to manufacture a "middle class" by creating layers upon layers of govt. jobs?
The so-called Keynesian approach of hiring govt. workers to dig holes and then fill them up.

We need to further increase the rate of progressive taxation, and re-distribute that to artificially create a "middle class".

If you want to lament the absence of a "middle class" (which I don't agree with, btw), you have to look into why working jobs are going overseas.
Why North America (this is true for the US as well, although less so), is left with only two types of jobs - govt. jobs, and low wage, low skill retail jobs.
At least in Canada, we thankfully have better paid resource sector and financial sector jobs.

But many other jobs are service sector or govt. jobs of various kinds.

That is a structural problem, which cannot be fixed by simply hiring more and more govt. workers and paying them far above average compensation, and retiring them off at age 52 with 70% lifelong pensions.


----------



## fraser

I applaud Canada Post for dealing with this issue BEFORE they incur significant losses like the US Postal Service is now facing.

I have no problem with increasing the price of stamps or reining in home delivery. I do not want to pay $3. for a stamp so I will just have to use a community mail box for pickup. Just like many other Canadians already do and have done so for years. Nor do I want Canada Post subsidized by the Federal Government. User pay is fine with me.

I have no problem with Canada Post asking for an physicians letter. How else can it be done.....on the honour system? If that was the case, everyone would call in with a tale of woe and ask to be exempted. A physician's not is required for all other programs, insurance, etc. so why not this.

The financial woes of the post office operation are NOT going to get any better. They will worsen as even more people/businesses turn to a paperless environment. Those $5 charges for hard copy bills are moving people away from mail in droves. Junk mail does not pay the freight. I cannot think of one important piece of mail that I get that is not, or could be, delivered much faster and in a much less expensive manner
via the web. Granted, not all provinces are there yet with networks and this is not a possibly. for some people in rural or remote areas. They already have to leave their homes to get snail mail.

It is very easy to take pot shots at Canada Post executives, employees etc. when it comes to salary, benefits, work ethic etc. but those pot shots will not make the basic problem, REVENUE go away nor do they do anything to address that real issue. Our postal delivery person works hard and has to put up with a lot of snash from her customers-and their assorted pets. I would not want her job.


----------



## AltaRed

HaroldCrump said:


> That is not true at all.
> AltaRed's statement specifically mentioned publicly traded company.
> Their financial records are open to the public.
> Incompetence does get out, and management does get fired.


These companies then fail....or succumb to acquisitions. We do not have the same opportunity with public sector monopolies. There are likely a few essential service public services worth keeping in the taxpayer funded sector but most services could be accomplished via competitive bidding in the private sector.


----------



## blueeyetea

HaroldCrump said:


> The rate of growth in the Sunshine list, for example, or the overall growth in the public sector workforce vis-à-vis the growth rate of the GDP or even inflation is neither productive nor sustainable.


The sunshine list is in Ontario versus the rate of GDP – where are the numbers showing the comparison? Public sector growth versus GDP – where are the numbers showing that as well. 

Comparing salary growth versus the GDP means what exactly? The GDP is comprised of many things apart from salaries. What will you use next as justification? Comparing salaries in the public sector to the growth of car sales? So what? It’s completely meaningless. 

And if you’re on the subject of the sunshine list, you should at least realise that it is for people working for the Ontario Government that make more than $100,000 a year. There is no such list in existence for the private sector. At the same time, it’s not that hard to imagine someone earning more than $100,000. Yes, even in the private sector. 



HaroldCrump said:


> Our job numbers are showing that public sector hiring is feverishly trying to replace private sector hiring.


So, what you’re saying is the private sector isn’t hiring, so the Government is coming up behind handing jobs to keep the economy going?



HaroldCrump said:


> The govt. is trying desperately to keep the unemployment numbers low by hiring in the public sector to offset private sector job losses, not reckoning that perhaps maybe these things might just be related.


And you’d rather want more people on the unemployment line instead?

Again, you’re pointing the finger in the right place – the private sector not holding up their end, despite access to cheap capital that could foster growth in the economy. 



HaroldCrump said:


> For instance, in Ontario, the govt. has been hiring like drunken sailors about to set sail on a treasure hunting quest, while the private sector growth is almost non existent.


Yes, exactly. So, why is the private sector not hiring? Do you have an answer for that? 



HaroldCrump said:


> http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/09/private-public-sector-wage-gap-growing


That article is completely biased by right-wingers with no source to their data, complete with a reference to the poor business owner who eked out a living in GTA to fuel the flame against public sector workers. 

No mention that the majority of public sector workers are professionals with university educations who earn more. Compared to a pool of workers that include minimum wage fast food workers and clerks at Walmart, yes, the average salary will certainly be higher, but it’s missing part of the picture. An accountant in the private sector isn’t earning that much less than an accountant in the public sector. 



HaroldCrump said:


> So we need to manufacture a "middle class" by creating layers upon layers of govt. jobs? .


No. The private sector has chipped away at the middle class by letting salaries stagnate, with a preference to a transient workforce that will accept work for less than a living wage. The economy isn’t doing well because private sector workers aren’t spending into the economy. 



HaroldCrump said:


> We need to further increase the rate of progressive taxation, and re-distribute that to artificially create a "middle class"..


You’ll have to explain that one. You’ve lost me. 



HaroldCrump said:


> If you want to lament the absence of a "middle class" (which I don't agree with, btw), you have to look into why working jobs are going overseas.


And why don’t you agree about the absence of middle class? 

It is being eroded, according to economists. Middle class in the early 1970s meant a family of four, with one parent working, the other one at home who could afford a house, a car, and one or two family vacations a year. Nowadays, two parents need to work and they may not have access to a house and vacation.


----------



## blueeyetea

HaroldCrump said:


> That is not true at all.
> AltaRed's statement specifically mentioned publicly traded company.
> Their financial records are open to the public.
> Incompetence does get out, and management does get fired.


Really? Give me an example apart from getting annual reports? 



HaroldCrump said:


> Yes, there are highly publicized, outrageous accounting scandals like Enron, WorldCom, Calpine, etc.
> But that is not limited to the private sector.
> People are human when it comes to govt. bureaucrats and politicians, but are not human when it comes to private businesses?


You're the one that brought up fraud and corruption, insinuating it's more prevalent in the public sector than it would be in the private sector. I'm setting the record straight. People being human, it's bound to happen everywhere, in all sectors. 



HaroldCrump said:


> And it does not take a lawsuit or a parliamentary inquiry to uncover incompetence, accounting irregularities, etc. in publicly traded corporations.


And what does it take? You can't just ask a private company, or publicly traded corporation, to hand over their files on a certain contract, or their accounting books, to see if there's any wrong doing. They'll laugh at you and tell you to take a hike. The only way you'll get access is by court subpoena. 



HaroldCrump said:


> Whereas, in the public sector, everything needs to be investigated by the AG, a committee, the RCMP, etc.


Not necessarily. That's where the Access to Information Act comes in. You, as a private citizen, can request files and do your own investigation. 



HaroldCrump said:


> The market imposes more accountability on public companies than do the tax-payers on their elected officials and paid bureaucrats.


No they don't. If a private company does an internal audit on how contracts are handed out to company suppliers, the public doesn't get to read that report. They won't even know an audit was performed. The Government has an obligation to release all audits they perform. Not the same kind of transparency at all between the two. 



HaroldCrump said:


> In the case of public corporations, it can be, and often is.
> There are scores of instances where a financial journalist, an analyst, or even a layperson uncovered fraud/accounting issues among companies, and it was dealt with swiftly and brutally.


Yes. It's because of whistleblowing and/or access to insider information. It's not because the company handed over documents via official channels at the request of the journalist. Listen to journalist reports and they'll say how they got their information. They'll also go back to the company for comments on the information they uncovered, so it's obvious they didn't get their information by reading the annual report that complies with SEC regulations. [/QUOTE]


----------



## Butters

Canada Post second quarter profits 62 million
parcels up 11%

none of the suggested community mail boxes are switched over yet
if this was a public traded company...


proves the cuts are not necessary
http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1403578/canada-post-62-million-profit-proves-cuts-are-unnecessary

Again, Canada Post has never borrow a penny from the tax payers


----------



## doctrine

$50M a quarter is just great. And with a $6B pension shortfall, it should only take 30 years to catch up on it.


----------



## Butters

They will start profiting more. They still plan on cutting 6-8 thousand jobs with the boxes. 

The company doesn't add their portion into the pension those numbers are fudged. And not every letter carrier will retire "today". the pension contribution rates have been increased twice in the past year. As well as they are trying to change the structure of the pension. 

New employees don't get that pension. They also get 8 dollars less an hour and have a 97% turnover rate here in Edmonton. Over 60% nationwide. So much so they have changed the hiring procress from 2 weeks of training to 5 weeks and to slowly get then into the workforce. 

Remind you the turnover before 2008 was less than 10%

They have given the government 2 billion dollars in the past 20 years as part of their profits for being a crown corporation. 

They will be very profitable. 

And if they make it private it will be extremely profitable by cutting our wages even further.
the CEO will be making 80million a year instead of his 800k salary (with bonuses)


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## Beaver101

News update: 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/winnipeg-startup-seeks-to-fill-at-home-mail-delivery-void-left-by-canada-post/article20949913/ ... great business opportunit(ies) for the private sector.


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## the-royal-mail

Save home delivery for all!


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## Beaver101

^ :confused2: ... is that a cry, a declaration or a protest?

PS: Since you're "the-royal-mail", any special delivery privilege or tip? :biggrin:


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## HaroldCrump

I want to bring back milk home-delivery.
We should create a federal crown corporation for organizing this.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Okay, so the-royal-mail is a relic ... poor postman ... :grey:


----------



## the-royal-mail

What a great idea, Harold.

Milk delivery is something we lost and would be a very popular service if it were returned. Just look at how aggressively everybody bolts for the milk coolers at the grocery store. Demand is very high, as it is with royal mail parcel delivery.


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## Beaver101

Can CP go into solvency when all is said, do and done?

http://www.thestar.com/business/2014/10/16/postal_workers_go_to_court_to_save_home_delivery.html ....


----------



## Addy

the-royal-mail said:


> What a great idea, Harold.
> 
> Milk delivery is something we lost and would be a very popular service if it were returned. Just look at how aggressively everybody bolts for the milk coolers at the grocery store. Demand is very high, as it is with royal mail parcel delivery.


When we lived in Winnipeg (up until 3 years ago) I found out Dairyland (or its equivalent in Winnipeg) delivered but would not deliver to my neighbourhood... too inner city for the likes of the drivers or perhaps they had products stolen (or customers say it was stolen!) too often.

Another reason I like large urban centres, so easy to have groceries delivered. I order a fair bit online from walmart.ca because it's convenient for a busy, working, single mom (temporarily single due to hubby working) and would love to get fresh produce and milk delivered but it doesn't happen in the small town we live in. 

Edit to add - and I pick my mail up at the most once a week. Community mailboxes are a pain in the arse.


----------



## Beaver101

*Bedford woman shocked her mail key opens neighbour's mailbox*

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/bedford-woman-shocked-her-mail-115302244.html



> A Bedford, N.S., woman has questions for Canada Post after she discovered the keys for her new community mailbox open not only her own mailbox, but at least one of her neighbour's as well. ...


... is this how the secure the new superboxes are? OMG.


----------



## HaroldCrump

Our mailman (or mailwoman) routinely delivers other people's mail in our mailbox.
Most of the mail appears to be bank statements, credit card statements, credit card offers, and equally sensitive material.
Sometimes the house number is same as ours, sometimes it's off by a digit or two.

I usually walk over to the correct house and give it to them.

I am not sure what is the reason for the de-motivation of the postal workers.
Maybe they are sub-contractors, and not paid enough.
But whatever the reason may be, mail delivery personnel's job performance clearly leaves much to be desired.

I don't know how much more we need to pay in postage costs and taxes in order to ensure accurate service.


----------



## the-royal-mail

A friend of mine down east said for a while it looked like his mail had been stuffed in his mailbox with a plunger. He also said it seemed like the parcel delivery man tried to attempt delivery when he was not a home so that he could leave the stupid card and cause my friend to have to truck down to the stupid pharmacy to pick up later. I am sure the posties get kickbacks for the number of cards delivered as that helps the pick-up points profit from the added foot traffic. It's probably easier for them because then they can just leave a card in mailbox instead of lugging heavy boxes.

The high costs of parcel post (still cheaper than the couriers etc though) have curtailed my online buying and selling activity on ebay. Cheaper to have junk shipped from China than from Canada!


----------



## Butters

Worst thing is they gave the contract to build CMB to a US company....

http://www.canadapost.ca/cpo/mc/aboutus/corporate/postaltransformation/news.jsf#machineable
_Because more mail will be sorted by the equipment in the plants, delivery agents will be able to leave the depot and begin their deliveries earlier._
Anyways, the machine almost all of our letters now. So the only chance we have to double check the letter is in front of your doorstep.

The sub contractors are definitely not paid enough, some of them are making less than minimum wage, I have no idea why they do it.

At Canada Post we have to attempt every parcel to the door. The time could vary, but I'm sure your letter carrier doesn't try to pick the perfect time when you're not home. We get no such kick backs for delivering parcels to the pharmacy, in fact the pharmacy actually charges Canada Post $1 per item.
China has made some crazy agreement with Canada Post, 90% of their crap is signature, I hate it! They opened that new plant in BC just for china products


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## blueeyetea

HaroldCrump said:


> I don't know how much more we need to pay in postage costs and taxes in order to ensure accurate service.


Canada Post has been self-funded since the early 1990s. This is one area where the argument of taxpayers being gouged doesn't apply.


----------



## blueeyetea

SheaButters said:


> Worst thing is they gave the contract to build CMB to a US company....


Well, Canada Post contracts are subject to NAFTA, so it's not like they have a choice in refusing bids that meet the requirements.


----------



## HaroldCrump

blueeyetea said:


> Canada Post has been self-funded since the early 1990s. This is one area where the argument of taxpayers being gouged doesn't apply.


Uh huh, yeah, of course.
And their pension plan is 100% funded as well.
And the federal govt. never granted them a pension contribution holiday, either.


----------



## blueeyetea

HaroldCrump said:


> Uh huh, yeah, of course.
> And their pension plan is 100% funded as well.
> And the federal govt. never granted them a pension contribution holiday, either.


And your taxes are paying for this yet? 

CPC is continuing to pay contributions to the plan. A contribution holiday is only possible when there's a surplus. And yes, it also got a reprieve until 2017 on covering the deficit calculated on paper if the pension plan was wound up today. Once your taxes start paying for any of this, you'll have something to complain about. Until then, you don't.


----------



## the-royal-mail

Are stamps going up again?


----------



## Beaver101

Why not, since CP' executives' salaries, bonuses and perks most certainly will.


----------



## the-royal-mail

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-post-posts-13m-profit-in-3rd-quarter-of-2014-1.2850799

The change to community boxes should be halted immediately. There are theft problems with these.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...d-thousands-of-times-records-reveal-1.1413809

Perhaps Shea Butters can chime in with some additional information.


----------



## christinehenry

*OMG... Canada Post domestic postage soared from $0.63 to 0.85 to $1 next year*

This is what happens on a sinking ship. Instead of competing with cheaper and cheaper forms of communication like email, text messages and less expensive forms of package delivery like fedex and ups, Canada Post is authoring its own demise. The higher the price, the less people will use it. Period. There are just too many cheaper, quicker and more effecitve means to send messages now.


----------



## the-royal-mail

>This is what happens on a sinking ship. 

Sure are bringing in a lot of profit for a sinking ship!

>Instead of competing with cheaper and cheaper forms of communication like email, text messages 

You just bought a collectible from me on ebay. OK I'll email or text it to you. You're ok with that?

>and less expensive forms of package delivery like fedex and ups

Anyone who ships stuff knows this is simply not true. Those couriers are VERY expensive, which is exactly why most people use the royal mail to ship their online purchases as well as sales. Most people do not live near an outlet to ship items via couriers and most online buyers are not willing to pay the high price. As well, most people are not at home during the day to be able to receive such shipments which do not have access to our standard mailboxes. So now we have to get in our car and drive across the city all the way to the airport. As well, what you say does not work for people who live in rural areas. Shall I go on?

> Canada Post is authoring its own demise. 

Thank you for the useless rhetoric, but the contents of the article reveal the exact opposite is occuring. They have had a very successful two quarters.

>The higher the price, the less people will use it. Period. 

If you had bothered to read the article and report, you would know this is not black and white as you suggest.

>There are just too many cheaper, quicker and more effecitve means to send messages now. 

Except that the vast majority of volume at the royal mail is not messages, but packages. Or should we be emailing and texting those?


----------



## HaroldCrump

Canada Post has yet to pay up for its pension deficits.
Those profit numbers do not include any accounting for that.

At the beginning of 2014, the solvency deficit was about $6.5B, expected to grow to $8B by the end of 2014.
They are still under a contribution holiday, which is being extended by the federal govt. every 6 months.

Those profit numbers are all fake, smoke & mirrors.
If the corporation is true cash flow positive, they should start re-allocating those "profits" into the pension plan instead of declaring fake profits to facilitate more management bonuses and benefits for their union.

Or, reduce future benefit promises (oh my, the horror !)

In addition to the contribution holiday, they have a $2.5B LOC from the federal govt.
Take that away and their solvency deficit might actually be a current deficit.


----------



## Beaver101

the-royal-mail said:


> http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-post-posts-13m-profit-in-3rd-quarter-of-2014-1.2850799
> 
> *The change to community boxes should be halted immediately. There are theft problems with these.*
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...d-thousands-of-times-records-reveal-1.1413809
> 
> Perhaps Shea Butters can chime in with some additional information.


 ... can't wait for these superboxes on the streets of Toronto ... not.


----------



## warp

Harold:

ALL public sector unions make me sick...( and I think you share that view )

They are overpaid, under-worked, and over-perked. The Pension liabilities for these leeches is a dirty little secret that no-one, especially politicians, wants to talk about. They will Bankrupt this country if left unchecked.

The only public service union members who deserve these ludicrously generous pensions are the firefighters.
All the others should have to save for their retirements like the rest of us.


----------



## Butters

Canada Post won't stop with the boxes.... there biggest problem is their letter carriers getting injured... 1 Letter carrier delivers to 600 houses, now that 1 letter carrier will drive to boxes and touch 1200 houses, those 1200 residents will do the walking, and for most perhaps it won't be a big toll on their body, but for the handicap and elderly, it might. An elderly falls in winter and gets a broken hip, now that will come out of your tax dollars. In Winnipeg there is a guy who is charging $20 a month to drive your mail from the CMB to your doorstep Mon/Wed 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...native-to-canada-post-home-delivery-1.2788795

Theft, among many other issues have been brought up before the company, but they continue to push their train along without consulting anyone... 

honestly you should see the crap we get in trouble for these days, it's a sad place to work, I put in my bid for part time and have started school again 
this one letter carrier torn his knee... he was an active guy, and it is very sad to see... the company brings him in for 1 hour a day to sit there and watch safety videos on repeat and put stickers on things. after his hour he comes over and chats with me, and the supervisor goes up to him and says "it's 9:10am, what are you still doing here, you were finished work at 9:00, please leave now you are disrupting other people trying to work" and they literally walk him out of the building.... thats just 1 story...
girls that get pregnant and during their 7-8 months can't walk anymore, same story, the company makes them go on disability leave (we have to pay $60 for a note, and first 5 days are "waiting peroid" aka time without pay) (ShortTerm Disability is only 70% of regular pay) CPC gives them 1 hour of work (to show they are accommodating them and they are showing up to work so it doesnt hurt their numbers)
its all pathetic

our jobs aren't finish at noon and go home anymore... We are out past 6pm, its getting dark out, company just gives us headlamp and says it's safe to work
it's 13KM of walking carrying on average 20 pounds of mail, up and down stairs.... i said before, I'd rather run a marathon every day than deliver the mail
We are working the full 8++++ hours, and we get creamed out if we try to put in overtime, and denied!!! I had the biggest target on my back, I just gave up, I go in do the job go home, very unhappy like all the rest...
They are running the place to the ground...


and regarding the pension, or other crap.... *WHEN HAS CANADA POST EVER USED TAX PAYERS DOLLAR?* Canada Post has actually given CANADA 2 billion dollars in the last 20 years because its a crown company, including $250 million last year, when it claimed to have lost money (mostly due to acquisition of a city block downtown vancouver for a new plant), and also paid managers/supervisors bonuses (again).

Canada Post is VERY profitable. Parcels are at record numbers. We are no longer a letter carrier that delivers mail, but we are a parcel driver with some letters. We all have cars now, we all deliver parcels.

and if we are overpaid, come work for us.... in Edmonton, tafter 1 month of work only about 10% (which is better than last year since they ease them into it for a month now, instead of 2 weeks of training) they are CONSTANTLY hiring, come apply!

you guys have such stubborn mindsets you can't even open your eyes. Go do the job for a day

*below are paid by your tax dollars...*
Politicians, yes they are overpaid, talk too much, etc..
Police - well they are too aggressive and don't really serve and protect us... they are driven by revenue, and stupid paperwork... arrogant too, and some are abusive
Fire Fighters - well there is good and bad stuff about them too... they get lots of time off, 4 days on 12 hours, 4 days off... ability to sleep, they cook themselves, they all have gyms inside their hall too....
but they do report to car accidents and the very very very odd fire.
I personally know 2 fire fighters and they say they have the best job ever... neither has been in a real fire.

you don't see me saying mailman is the best job ever... but if you asked me 4 years ago before we got the cars i would have said yes.


----------



## carverman

SheaButters said:


> Canada Post is VERY profitable. Parcels are at record numbers. We are no longer a letter carrier that delivers mail, but we are a parcel driver with some letters. *We all have cars now, we all deliver parcels*.


Maybe so, but I'm still tracking down a parcel that was claimed to be delivered by CP . When I inquired with the tracking number yesterday, it said "parcel successfully delivered".yesterday . Sure successfully delivered but where? 

It wasn't delivered to my doorstep. I checked yesterday and today and even my neighbour checked around. 
So today, I called CP customer service and asked them to track down what happened to my parcel. 

Good thing my power wheel chair batteries still have a bit of remaining life in them.:biggrin:


----------



## HaroldCrump

SheaButters said:


> and regarding the pension, or other crap.... *WHEN HAS CANADA POST EVER USED TAX PAYERS DOLLAR?*


You keep saying that...have been saying that since the beginning of the thread, in spite of several people having presented clear evidence to the contrary.
The contribution holiday, the federal LOC, the massive pension deficits, etc. are all clear evidence that CP is clearly dependent on tax-payer subsidies.

As for the working conditions, sure we can believe you.
You are working there, and assuming you are not flat out lying about it, it's plausible that conditions are bad.
But that is a different matter than the under-funded pensions issue.


----------



## nathan79

carverman said:


> Maybe so, but I'm still tracking down a parcel that was claimed to be delivered by CP . When I inquired with the tracking number yesterday, it said "parcel successfully delivered".yesterday . Sure successfully delivered but where?
> 
> It wasn't delivered to my doorstep. I checked yesterday and today and even my neighbour checked around.
> So today, I called CP customer service and asked them to track down what happened to my parcel.
> 
> Good thing my power wheel chair batteries still have a bit of remaining life in them.:biggrin:


The same thing happened to me, except with UPS. And that wasn't the first time they've screwed me over. I once caught them intentionally altering (increasing) the declared value on customs documents so they could charge me a higher brokerage fee. When I asked what the hell they were doing, they actually said it was completely legal to change the value if the stated value "appears" low. Totally unbelievable.

I've had hundreds of parcels delivered with Canada Post, and never an issue. Not only do they have the best prices but they have convenient locations, which is more than you can say about UPS, Fedex, and other couriers. I have had good results with Fedex, though.

It's a shame to hear of the issues at Canada Post, though.


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Maybe so, but I'm still tracking down a parcel that was claimed to be delivered by CP . When I inquired with the tracking number yesterday, it said "parcel successfully delivered".yesterday . Sure successfully delivered * but where*?
> 
> *It wasn't delivered to my doorstep.* I checked yesterday and today and even my neighbour checked around.
> So today, I called CP customer service and asked them to track down what happened to my parcel.
> 
> Good thing my power wheel chair batteries still have a bit of remaining life in them.:biggrin:


 ... so what happens if CP "lost" your parcel (hopefully not)? Since I'm assuming your order is for new wheelchair batteries, will the vendor be re-sending another (of course item has to be insured) in your case? 

What I have noticed over the past few years for "parcel/registered mail" deliveries, only 1 (and the "last" one) notification is given if the recipient is missed (ie. not home or available to sign) despite CP says the recipient is given a first, second and last notification? Unless you're sitting by the door, sipping a beer, looking out for the mailman on your delivery, the odds of you having to go to the post office kiosk to pick up your special delivery are very good, 99% of the time. So maybe this was already a signal years ago that those super-dumbo-boxes was the future way of mail-delivery. How shrewd of CP management. :rolleyes2:


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... so what happens if CP "lost" your parcel (hopefully not)? Since I'm assuming your order is for new wheelchair batteries, will the vendor be re-sending another (of course item has to be insured) in your case?


Well so far we are not sure yet. Sufficient time has to elapse for CP to investigate what happened to the order that was claimed to be delivered successfully. 
This is the first time this has happened as I have previous orders for battery replacements that arrived
at my doorstep.

There was a tracking number associated with my order. The vendor was notified yesterday and I got a ticket number from the vendor.

The vendor has notified CP for a investigation from their end. 
I also phoned CP, gave them the tracking number and details and they gave me a reference number yesterday.



> What I have noticed over the past few years for "parcel/registered mail" deliveries, only 1 (and the "last" one) notification is given if the recipient is missed (ie. not home or available to sign) despite CP says the recipient is given a first, second and last notification? Unless you're sitting by the door, sipping a beer, looking out for the mailman on your delivery, *the odds of you having to go to the post office kiosk to pick up your special delivery are very good, 99% of the time. So maybe this was already a signal years ago that those super-dumbo-boxes was the future way of mail-delivery. How shrewd of CP management.* :rolleyes2:


Beav, in the past my orders were just drop shipped. No additional insurance was purchased, and I since I was paying for the battery shipment (usually 2 heavy batteries), I was given a choice on how much to pay for shipping.

CP is the cheapest, so up to now, I just prepaid the shipping for CP along with my order. 
I could have specified UPS ground (3-8 business days) or UPS express (2-3 business days, which is a bit more expensive). 

In previous orders over the last 3 years, I have used both UPS ground and CP , and never had any problems with my battery orders going astray. 
However from now on for my battery orders, I will only use UPS 

I checked my mailbox yesterday..so far no 'pickup at postal kiosk card"...so it is a bit of a mystery. I have no way of getting to my postal kiosk right now..but next week, depending on what I hear back..I will check with the postal kiosk.

However, this is not very good service from CP, for instance; with a registered letter that you have to sign for,
if you are not home or unavailable at the time, they do leave a card in your MB , 
but it doesn't look like this is the case with drop shipments?

This is not very good service from CP, especially when they install the community MB in my area next year I believe.
In the winter months it is not going to be convenient for me to get to my community MB, and something like replacement batteries to keep me mobile needs to be fast and reliable.

BTW; I was home, but my front gate was partially closed, so maybe it did end up in the kiosk...so far no postal card
as of this morning (29th) and the shipment was claimed to be delivered successfully at 2:10 pm on the 27th.


----------



## Butters

The letter carrier probably made a mistake and dropped it on the next block over or something silly. 
We make mistakes too. 

 if it was delivered successfully canada post it's very likely canada post no longer has that item. Wether the neighbour turns it back or you find it hidden in your BBQ in the summer is a good question 

Having an item require a signature ensures a carrier will collect it or send it to the shoppers drug mart. $2 cost or so
There are other options too, like send to Shoppers. Do not safe drop. Etc. 

Sorry for the hassle. Complain Its likely canada post will just eat the loss of the item. Perhaps by that time your neighbour will give you the parcel and you'll have 2


----------



## Beaver101

SheaButters said:


> The letter carrier probably made a mistake and dropped it on the next block over or something silly.
> We make mistakes too.
> 
> if it was delivered successfully canada post it's very likely canada post no longer has that item. Wether the neighbour turns it back or you find it hidden in your BBQ in the summer is a good question
> 
> Sorry for the hassle. *Complain Its likely canada post will just eat the loss of the item.* Perhaps by that time your neighbour will give you the parcel and you'll have 2


 ... in costs cutting times now by CP, this is hardly called "efficiency". 

Says it ends up the case CP does have to eat for the loss of the item, isn't there a cap on the amount of the item? If I recall from a couple of years ago, the maximum claim was $100 only (and that was with insurance). 



> *carverman: * ...
> 
> I checked my mailbox yesterday..so far no *'pickup at postal kiosk card"...*so it is a bit of a mystery. I have no way of getting to my postal kiosk right now..but next week, depending on what I hear back..I will check with the postal kiosk. ...


 ... might not be a "card" but a "tag (like a Do Not Disturb sign)" hanging on your doorknob so unless you open your door and check on the knob, you won't be able to see this kind of pick-it-up-at-the-postal-kiosk "notification".


----------



## RBull

SheaButters said:


> Canada Post won't stop with the boxes.... there biggest problem is their letter carriers getting injured... 1 Letter carrier delivers to 600 houses, now that 1 letter carrier will drive to boxes and touch 1200 houses, those 1200 residents will do the walking, and for most perhaps it won't be a big toll on their body, but for the handicap and elderly, it might. An elderly falls in winter and gets a broken hip, now that will come out of your tax dollars. In Winnipeg there is a guy who is charging $20 a month to drive your mail from the CMB to your doorstep Mon/Wed
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...native-to-canada-post-home-delivery-1.2788795
> 
> Theft, among many other issues have been brought up before the company, but they continue to push their train along without consulting anyone...
> 
> honestly you should see the crap we get in trouble for these days, it's a sad place to work, I put in my bid for part time and have started school again
> this one letter carrier torn his knee... he was an active guy, and it is very sad to see... the company brings him in for 1 hour a day to sit there and watch safety videos on repeat and put stickers on things. after his hour he comes over and chats with me, and the supervisor goes up to him and says "it's 9:10am, what are you still doing here, you were finished work at 9:00, please leave now you are disrupting other people trying to work" and they literally walk him out of the building.... thats just 1 story...
> girls that get pregnant and during their 7-8 months can't walk anymore, same story, the company makes them go on disability leave (we have to pay $60 for a note, and first 5 days are "waiting peroid" aka time without pay) (ShortTerm Disability is only 70% of regular pay) CPC gives them 1 hour of work (to show they are accommodating them and they are showing up to work so it doesnt hurt their numbers)
> its all pathetic
> 
> our jobs aren't finish at noon and go home anymore... We are out past 6pm, its getting dark out, company just gives us headlamp and says it's safe to work
> it's 13KM of walking carrying on average 20 pounds of mail, up and down stairs.... *i said before, I'd rather run a marathon every day than deliver the mail*
> We are working the full 8++++ hours, and we get creamed out if we try to put in overtime, and denied!!! I had the biggest target on my back, I just gave up, I go in do the job go home, very unhappy like all the rest...
> They are running the place to the ground...
> 
> 
> and regarding the pension, or other crap.... *WHEN HAS CANADA POST EVER USED TAX PAYERS DOLLAR?* Canada Post has actually given CANADA 2 billion dollars in the last 20 years because its a crown company, including $250 million last year, when it claimed to have lost money (mostly due to acquisition of a city block downtown vancouver for a new plant), and also paid managers/supervisors bonuses (again).
> 
> Canada Post is VERY profitable. Parcels are at record numbers. We are no longer a letter carrier that delivers mail, but we are a parcel driver with some letters. We all have cars now, we all deliver parcels.
> 
> and if we are overpaid, come work for us.... in Edmonton, tafter 1 month of work only about 10% (which is better than last year since they ease them into it for a month now, instead of 2 weeks of training) they are CONSTANTLY hiring, come apply!
> 
> you guys have such stubborn mindsets you can't even open your eyes. Go do the job for a day
> 
> *below are paid by your tax dollars...*
> Politicians, yes they are overpaid, talk too much, etc..
> Police - well they are too aggressive and don't really serve and protect us... they are driven by revenue, and stupid paperwork... arrogant too, and some are abusive
> Fire Fighters - well there is good and bad stuff about them too... they get lots of time off, 4 days on 12 hours, 4 days off... ability to sleep, they cook themselves, they all have gyms inside their hall too....
> but they do report to car accidents and the very very very odd fire.
> I personally know 2 fire fighters and they say they have the best job ever... neither has been in a real fire.
> 
> you don't see me saying mailman is the best job ever... but if you asked me 4 years ago before we got the cars i would have said yes.


Have you ever ran a marathon?


----------



## Butters

Yes I have, also did a half ironman triathlon last year  that was pretty tough!
Could definitely train up and be a ultra marathoner if it meant getting paid well, but maybe just a half marathon 5x a week to start 


Have you ever ran a marathon? arent we getting a little side tracked?



Beaver, we usually stick the Card For Pick Up in the mailbox.... but it would also show on his tracking it was at the Shoppers... which it doesn't... it says... delivered... so it was delivered somewhere and Canada Post no longer has it..... like I said before


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> Says it ends up the case CP does have to eat for the loss of the item, isn't there a cap on the amount of the item? If I recall from a couple of years ago, the* maximum claim was $100 only* (and that was with insurance).
> 
> ... might not be a "card" but a "tag (like a Do Not Disturb sign)" hanging on your doorknob so unless you open your door and check on the knob, you won't be able to see this kind of pick-it-up-at-the-postal-kiosk "notification".


Beav, no tag on my doorknob either. So far the battery package has NOT turned up this weekend. Perhaps if the package
was delivered to another number on my street , I understand it may take a few days for the package to be either personally
delivered by the wrong recipient or returned to CP as "not at this address", then mysteriously turn up on my door step. 
I do not believe any of my neighbours took it either as it is not something that most people can use. 

I have had mail erroneously delivered to me with the same house number but another street next to me in previous years.
I either personally delivered the letter to the intended mailbox in the next street or if I didn't have time, write 'not at this
address' and drop it into the most convenient letter box.

Not sure if this was a sorter problem at the main distribution CP warehouse or what, but the Postal code was definitely different, yet the mail was still erroneously was dropped into my mailbox...so reading and checking the postal code may not be a priority.

I often wonder if the delivery people even know the postal code...they probably go by street name and house number.

The value is under $100, but it was not insured, but in any case, I already declared that with CP when I called them. 
We will see if the package turns up this week at my doorstep.


----------



## carverman

SheaButters said:


> The letter carrier probably made a mistake and dropped it on the next block over or something silly.
> We make mistakes too.


It's a very good possibility, or a different street in my neighbourhood and the same house number as mine too. 
Not sure if it would be a letter carrier, probably a special package delivery CP truck that usually pulls up in front of my house, and brings the package up to my doorstep. 
With HEAVYbatteries, I don't believe the regular post man is required to deliver these packages, but I am not
sure.



> if it was delivered successfully canada post it's very likely canada post no longer has that item. Whether the neighbour turns it back or you find it hidden in your BBQ in the summer is a good question


I'm hoping to get it before next summer..LOL! If it doesn't show up, and CP won't reimburse the sender, I'll reorder from the sender again and this time I will use UPS express service. If my wheelchair/stairchair batteries die..I'm really stuck. So far that hasn't happened, but then I don't want to cut it too close either. 



> Having an item require a signature ensures a carrier will collect it or send it to the shoppers drug mart. $2 cost or so
> There are other options too, like send to Shoppers. Do not safe drop. Etc.


Yes that is an option..I have a postal kiosk closeby, where some of my packages (or registered letters) , are delivered when a signature is required and I'm not around to answer the door when the postperson comes to deliver.



> Sorry for the hassle. Complain Its likely canada post will just eat the loss of the item. Perhaps by that time your neighbour will give you the parcel and you'll have 2


It is possible. I will call my postal kiosk this morning and see if the "postmistress' (not sure if that is PC these days?) can find it amongst the other parcels...worth a shot.


----------



## Nemo2

No wonder the rates have to go up......we just ordered something online......sent from Stoney Creek (259 km West of us) via Canada Post.......according to our tracking report it's now in Ottawa, (270 km _East_ of us).

Stoney Creek to Ottawa 521 km + Ottawa to Belleville 270 km = 791 km........since Stoney Creek is only 259 km from here, we seem to have a surplus of 532 (unnecessary?) km.

As a friend in Saudi commented about something....."I must've been here too long...that makes sense to me".


----------



## Beaver101

Look @ it this way, U're getting ur money worth since gas prices are getting cheap, gotta burn the extra fuel!


----------



## carverman

SheaButters said:


> Ybut it would also show on his tracking it was at the Shoppers... which it doesn't... it says... delivered... *so it was delivered somewhere and Canada Post no longer has it.*.... like I said before


Yes, that seems to be the case here. :biggrin: I verified with the shipper that the name, address and POSTAL CODE
was correct.



> 2014/11/27	14:10	OTTAWA	*Item successfully delivered	*
> 08:58	OTTAWA	Item out for delivery
> 06:13	OTTAWA	Item processed at local delivery facility ( Learn More) The item has arrived at the destination facility for final sorting before delivery. (Look for an "Out for Delivery" scan today or tomorrow to know when delivery will occur. You can also sign up for email notifications.)
> 00:32	OTTAWA	Item processed at local delivery facility (Learn More) The item has arrived at the destination facility for final sorting before delivery. Look for an "Out for Delivery" scan today or tomorrow to know when delivery will occur. You can also sign up for email notifications.
> 2014/11/25	18:44	STONEY CREEK	Item picked up by Canada Post (Learn More) Item picked up by Canada Post — We have picked up the item from the shipper and it is en route to a processing facility.
> 
> Shipment picked up by Canada Post — We have scanned shipping documents and picked up items from the shipper. They are en route to a processing facility. Keep checking Track for updates.
> 12:17	BURLINGTON	Electronic information submitted by shipper.


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> Look @ it this way, U're getting ur money worth since gas prices are getting cheap, gotta burn the extra fuel!


LOL! I guess they are not going to reduce the fuel surcharges because the oil prices could go up someday.


----------



## carverman

Nemo2 said:


> No wonder the rates have to go up......we just ordered something online......sent from Stoney Creek (259 km West of us) via Canada Post.......according to our tracking report it's now in Ottawa, (270 km _East_ of us).
> 
> Stoney Creek to Ottawa 521 km + Ottawa to Belleville 270 km = 791 km........since Stoney Creek is only 259 km from here, we seem to have a surplus of 532 (unnecessary?) km.
> .


Hmmm? Stoney Creek..that's down Hamilton way...wait a minute..so was my online battery order! 
Yet the vendor is in Buckhorn Ont, (Batterybuyer) and that's between Bobcaygeon and Lindsay
......ok I'm really confused with the way CP distribution is going these days...they seem to send it all over Ontario
..no wonder the deliveries are getting messed up! :nightmare:



> 2014/11/25	18:44	STONEY CREEK	Item picked up by Canada Post (Learn More) Item picked up by Canada Post — We have picked up the item from the shipper and it is en route to a processing facility.


At least it's not going all the way to TimBuktu and back.


----------



## Beaver101

U guys should ask Shea Brother - what's with this all- over- the- map delivery and false "it's delivered!" Tracking systems? Did the process and systems get outsourced?


----------



## Nemo2

Back when I lived on Salt Spring Island, (and the details here might be slightly mixed up, but the premise is valid), one of the residents was apparently confused as to why it took so long to deliver on-island mail, (i.e. letters mailed on Salt Spring to be delivered on Salt Spring), so he ran a test.......took the ferry over to either Nanaimo or Victoria (forget which) and mailed a letter to Salt Spring...on the same day he mailed a letter locally.

Off-island mail was delivered first.

Seems that on-island mail was shipped out (again, Nanaimo or Victoria), sorted, shipped back, re-sorted, delivered....the grand tour.

Problem was rectified - on-island mail was thenceforth sorted on island.......but the troubling thing was that, for the eons that this had apparently been going on, no postal employees clued in or acted.


----------



## Butters

Beaver101 said:


> U guys should ask Shea Brother - what's with this all- over- the- map delivery and false "it's delivered!" Tracking systems? Did the process and systems get outsourced?


it's the machines!
if they read a postal code wrong or something boom sends it whenever it wants... hardly anything is done manually anymore... I get about 2 parcels a day on my cart that don't belong in the area I deliver too... as well as about 6 letters in the machine (one to russia today, thought about taking a plane to go deliver it!)
in Edmonton here the managers cranked up the speed of the packet sorter and it broke, they are taking people off the street to scan barcodes and put items into the different areas... zero knowledge all machine
It costs Canada Post about 3 cents a MACHINEABLE letter to mail it including EVERYTHING
It costs about 20 cents to do it manually, but that knowledge has dried up, so probably 60 cents because it would take 3x longer to look everything up
*edit, my point is the accuracy isn't there anymore



A link about some of the truths of Canada Post.... however none of you will read / believe it because your opinion is set in stone
http://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/4307214-canada-post-s-invented-crisis/;send=false


----------



## carverman

SheaButters said:


> it's the machines!
> *if they read a postal code wrong or something boom sends it whenever it wants... hardly anything is done manually anymore.*..
> in Edmonton here the managers cranked up the speed of the packet sorter and it broke,
> 
> *they are taking people off the street to scan barcodes and put items into the different areas... zero knowledge *


*LOL!...This reminds me that I haven't posted any "fly on the wall" parodies lately..
*
*Fly on the wall: Canada Employment office*
--------------------------------------------

*Interviewer*: So your welfare/EI has run out? According to our questionnaire..you seem to have some difficulty interpreting the questions and writing the answers on our standard questionnaire . We need to determine how to match your skill set to the jobs in our job bank...hmmm..let's see...car salesman (no)...store clerk (no)...mall security (no).....oh wait..you are in luck...under Ontario's "Workfare" program, *Canada Post is looking for temporary workers for their new "state of the art" expanded package delivery system.*

*Applicant*: er..I really don't know..how much..does it pay?

*CE Interviewer:* it's minimum wage to start.*.but there is great potential for promotion, once you pass the probationary period *of employment..of course.:biggrin:

*Applicant:* My last job was working in a fish packing plant..so I guess I'll give it a try then.
*CE interviewer*: You'll do just fine then!

*CP PACKAGE SORTING TERMINAL:*
CP MISSION STATEMENT
-----------------------------------
"A modern state of the art collection/sorting/dispatching facility computerized for efficiency to eliminate full time positions, and compartmentalized to consolidate parcel shipments effectively all over Canada ( and elsewhere) to minimize shipping costs and maximize profits. 
*
Floor Supervisor:* Hey you! You starting this morning? 

*CP job hopeful: * Yes, Canada Employment told me to report at 8:00am sharp..where shall I start?

*Floor Supervisor:* have you ever operated our *CP Automatic Package scanner/sorter 2000*?

*Job hopeful:* No I don't have any knowledge in that, but on my last job...I did operate a fish canner for a few hours when the regular operator got sick

*Floor Supervisor: *Good then!. you are experienced!, you can start with this one..here is the console..watch the screen and check the first 3 digits of the postal code that the scanner reads..for postal code YOW...*press this button for conveyor left*, and for postal code YYZ.... press this button for conveyor right...got it? 

Now don't get them mixed up because they go directly into the big mail containers.

*Job hopeful*: ya..I think so...when is our first break?

*Floor Supervisor*: 10:00am sharp...but don't leave your machine even for a minute unless your (CE manpower) replacement has showed up... otherwise the lines will jam up!

10:am..break whistle blows....

*Job hopeful:* This is a worse place to work in than the fish canning plant!...I really need that coffee break...and my replacement (from manpower) hasn't showed up yet....I'll just put the machine on automatic.........

*10 minutes later...Big parcel jam!!!!.*..CP employees rush to clean up packages being tossed willy-nilly all over the place, dropping parcels intended for YOW into cart YYZ and others into cart FUBAR...packages on the floor,
packages under the conveyors...

After a mad rush to get the line working again...

*Floor supervisor:* Whew...Had to fire the new guy! These packages are so mixed up now, we don't have a clue on their original destination in the sorters. Now I have to sit down at my console, scan all tracking numbers that came up on that machine and mark these.."Delivered Successfully' for the next few hours..... 
...then at the end of the day, submit my report to CP management... to get my monthly bonus. 






> It costs Canada Post about 3 cents a MACHINEABLE letter to mail it including EVERYTHING
> It costs about 20 cents to do it manually, but that knowledge has dried up, so probably 60 cents because it would take 3x longer to look everything up
> 
> *edit, *my point is the accuracy isn't there any more*


----------



## Beaver101

... Lol!!!


----------



## Nemo2

Mailed a package to Orillia......Fuel Surcharge of 13%.......at a time when oil is lower than it's been for years....still, if it's being routed via Saskatoon I guess that's not _too_ bad.


----------



## carverman

Nemo2 said:


> Mailed a package to Orillia......Fuel Surcharge of 13%.......at a time when oil is lower than it's been for years....still, if it's being routed via Saskatoon I guess that's not _too_ bad.


I doubt that CP is going to remove their fuel surcharges any time soon...unlike the airlines and their fuel surcharges where travellers can protest. The problem also now is the sinking Canadian dollar that makes any kind of imports very expensive.

CP is setting up state of the art processing centers in order to take on the package business. This latest one is near Vancouver airport. So part of the reason the mailing costs have gone up...somebody has to pay for all this. 



> The new state-of-the-art facility combines the two plants and can sort 12,000 packets, 10,000 parcels and more than 41,000 letters per hour on approximately 30,000 feet of conveyors. A parcel can make a full trip on the multi-layered conveyor system in just under 3 minutes.





> Six-headed scanners read barcodes and hand written addresses to allocate each mail or parcel a specific roadmap on the conveyor system. The system is heavily dependent on machines and computers while staff working at the plant perform limited sorting duties and troubleshooting.





> Canada Post is also expected to reduce its workforce by between 6,000 to 8,000 positions or approximately 12 per cent of its total employees. An additional 15,000 staff are expected to retire or leave the crown corporation on their own will.


http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/09/...million-processing-centre-yvr-airport-photos/


----------



## carverman

Well this is bizarre! 
CP again is saying that they delivered my batteries yesterday "successfully"..but obviously not at my address.

I just don't understand what is going on here...surely they just scan the package that should have my postal code.
If it was delivered to Ottawa..what is it doing back in Mississauga? 


*2014/12/04	16:19	MISSISSAUGA	Shipment picked up by Canada Post* Learn More Item picked up by Canada Post — We have picked up the item from the shipper and it is en route to a processing facility.

Shipment picked up by Canada Post — We have scanned shipping documents and picked up items from the shipper. They are en route to a processing facility. Keep checking Track for updates.	

*12:12	OTTAWA	Item successfully delivered* 
*09:02	OTTAWA	Item out for delivery*

*07:13	OTTAWA	Item processed at local delivery facility* Learn More The item has arrived at the destination facility for final sorting before delivery. Look for an "Out for Delivery" scan today or tomorrow to know when delivery will occur. You can also sign up for email notifications.

*2014/12/03	03:01	MISSISSAUGA	In transit Learn More The item is travelling to its destination.* It will remain in this state until it arrives at the final processing location. Typically, the final processing scan occurs on the expected delivery date or the day before at the local delivery facility. Check this date to know when we will attempt delivery.

*00:33	MISSISSAUGA	Item processed* 
*2014/12/02	22:44	MISSISSAUGA	Electronic information submitted by shipper.*


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Well this is bizarre!
> CP again is saying that they delivered my batteries yesterday "successfully"..but obviously not at my address.
> 
> I just don't understand what is going on here...surely they just scan the package that should have my postal code.
> *If it was delivered to Ottawa..what is it doing back in Mississauga? ... *


 ... huh? that is bizarre and the tracking details are so totally :confused2:

Perhaps SheaButters - a postal veteran can further explain or help here? I hope your existing wheelchair batteries still have juice ... is CP aware of your situation or the urgency for the new batteries for your wheelchair or do they not care?


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... huh? that is bizarre and the tracking details are so totally :confused2:
> 
> Perhaps SheaButters - a postal veteran can further explain or help here? I hope your existing wheelchair batteries still have juice ... is CP aware of your situation or the urgency for the new batteries for your wheelchair or do they not care?


Well here is my rant..again...
Somehow I doubt it...even CP can't figure out what went wrong with this shipment. 
As "SheaButters", our "inside man" on CMF, formally of CP would say...


> it's the machines!
> if they read a postal code wrong or something boom sends it whenever it wants... hardly anything is done manually anymore..


I just find it to understand in this day of automated efficiency as CP is setting up at enormous expense to get rid of the Postal Union and the benefits/pensions they are obligated to pay that their package service.... in spite of automation....is not getting as efficient as they hoped. 

The delivery people now carry hand held scanners and even POS terminals to record CC numbers for taxes payable...its ALL AUTOMATED NOW...
except of course the physical driving to the address and the driver bringing the package to the correct address, ringing the bell. 

*Here is the chronological order of shipping events:*
This order was placed on the 22nd of Nov .
First notification of delivery Nov27th...'item successfully delivered" but no package.
Lots of phoning to CP Customer Service....given "reference numbers" for the phone calls...etc..etc..
Yes, we are sorry aboutthat..looks like your shipment went 'astray" so we (CP) is "investigating"

(Second attempt to deliver same shipment)



> Dec 3rd, item picked up in Mississauga and in transit....





> Dec 4th:
> 07:13	OTTAWA	Item processed at local delivery facility
> 09:02	OTTAWA	Item out for delivery
> 12:12	OTTAWA	Item successfully delivered


Dec 4th...tracking notification that "item was successfully delivered"...but no package at my doorstep, and no pickup slip
in my mailbox.. to where in Ottawa was it delivered?

Dec 5th...


> 2014/12/04	16:19	MISSISSAUGA	Shipment picked up by Canada Post


So am I to believe it travelled all the way from Mississauga to Ottawa, 'successfully delivered' and then back again to
Mississauga to be "picked up again".

If that is the case then CP has just wasted MILLIONs on their new automated package delivery system.....no wonder
we are being charge more for stamps and shipping these days...and so much for Postal Codes. 

"it's the machines!
if they read a postal code wrong or something boom sends it whenever it wants... hardly anything is done manually anymore.."


----------



## Beaver101

^ According to the tracking details with this 2nd order/shipment, the package essentially went from CP's Ottawa processing center to being delivered to somewhere (received) in Ottawa, and then it somehow was transported to Mississauga - why? if it was indeed successfully "delivered"? Doesn't make sense here and also with the first shipment re-routed to StoneyCreek????

Re the feedback:


> "*it's the machines*!
> if they read a postal code wrong or something boom sends it whenever it wants... *hardly anything is done manually anymore*.."


 ... I do not disagree that anything is done manually anymore but with all that $$$$ invested in the automation and the machine not being able to even read addresses properly, isn't that really sad of the whole idea by management? Also, machines don't invent or program themselves, humans do. 

In your case, I think it's about time CP do some "manual" intervention now to locate and grab your package or did they tell you to try again - a 3rd time shipping?

What a joke - CP's management should be proud of their automation achievement and all the $$$$ they saved from this for their annual bonuses and merit salary increases. :rolleyes2: :rolleyes2:


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ^ According to the tracking details with this 2nd order/shipment, the package essentially went from CP's Ottawa processing center to being delivered to somewhere (received) in Ottawa, and then it somehow was transported to Mississauga - why? if it was indeed successfully "delivered"?
> 
> Doesn't make sense here and also with the first shipment re-routed to StoneyCreek????


It's still the SAME shipment...stuck in limbo and going around in circles. I don't understand how it ended up in Mississauga again unless the wrong receipient put back in the post again.."return to sender"...so of course it couldn't go directly to me because that would be too easy..it had to go back to the originating sorting center, not the receiving center because there is no human intervention any more to put it on the local delivery truck to deliver it locally to the correct address.
This is my take on it.

Stoney Creek => Mississauga => Ottawa => wrong recipient? .....delay... recipient returns shipment => Ottawa distribution center=> back to Mississauga => back to sender? ..to start shipment over again.

Obviously you can't just "throw a wrench into the CP automated "process flow' when it comes to mail, it would jam up their process, which is designed to 'successfully deliver" the mail, whether to the correct address.. or not.

In other words, you cannot just take a package that was in their "outbox" and just put it back in their "inbox"...it has to go back to where it came from and start over again.:biggrin:
This would be my view on it. What they are lacking is Artificial Intelligence. 




> In your case, I think it's about time CP do some "manual" intervention now to locate and grab your package or did they tell you to try again - a 3rd time shipping?


This has nothing to do with me right now..I am not even in their radar..their state of the art automated machines are taking care of my shipment. I'll give them until Dec 12, and then put in a new order but have it sent by UPS.


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> *It's still the SAME shipment...stuck in limbo and going around in circles. *I don't understand how it ended up in Mississauga again unless the wrong receipient put back in the post again.."return to sender"...so of course it couldn't go directly to me because that would be too easy..it had to go back to the originating sorting center, not the receiving center because there is no human intervention any more to put it on the local delivery truck to deliver it locally to the correct address.
> This is my take on it.
> 
> *Stoney Creek => Mississauga => Ottawa => wrong recipient? .....delay... recipient returns shipment => Ottawa distribution center=> back to Mississauga => back to sender? ..to start shipment over again*.
> 
> Obviously you can't just "throw a wrench into the CP automated "process flow' when it comes to mail, it would jam up their process, which is designed to 'successfully deliver" the mail, whether to the correct address.. or not.
> 
> In other words, you cannot just take a package that was in their "outbox" and just put it back in their "inbox"...it has to go back to where it came from and start over again.:biggrin:
> This would be my view on it. *What they are lacking is Artificial Intelligence. *
> 
> This has nothing to do with me right now..I am not even in their radar..their state of the art automated machines are taking care of my shipment. I'll give them until Dec 12, and then put in a new order but have it sent by UPS.


 ... okay, got that it's the same shipment ... looks like CP is playing *merry-go-around *with your shipment :rolleyes-new: ...oh boy! I think you should apply for a work at home IT or delivery-design-software-engineer (can't think of exact term atm) position at CP since you know how the work flows better than they do!

I don't agree that CP's management is lacking A.I. but that of "human" intelligence. They're too reliant on automation or that A.I. of machines to see even common sense ... scary times much predicted by Dr. Stephen Hawkings that A.I. will take down the human race ... oops ... better not elaborate on this off topic with inappropriate A.I. language before I get an infraction/warning from the new moderator(s). :biggrin:

So what happens if December 12 comes and your new wheelchair batteries are not here ... will you be okay?


----------



## fraser

We are doing more and more on line shopping. Seven orders in the past six weeks.

What is VERY noticeable to us is that we get better tracking, more consistent and usually faster delivery when UPS (air or ground) is used. Our Future Shop and Chapters orders by CP are touch and go for delivery. Our Costco and Amazon UPS orders have excellent tracking and are delivered as per the tracking schedule. What we really like to see in the AM when we are expecting a delivery is to see that reference 'loaded on the truck for local delivery'. That way we absolutely know that it is coming on the day.

So, all things being equal, if we have to choose between two on line vendors for a product, the vendor who uses UPS, etc. vs. CP/Purolator will win out. If the price of the book is the same, Amazon wins over Chapters because of the UPS factor. Sent a toy to our Grandson in Ft. MacMurray two weeks ago.. Ordered from Amazon, delivered via UPS on the third day. It was a 5Kilo item in a fair sized box. Saved us paying postage to get it from our house to his or from paying for an extra bag on AC.

Several months ago I had to send some documents from Calgary to Toronto and another envelope to New York for guaranteed delivery within 2 days. FedEx won out because the depot was close, the price competitive, and my past experience with them was stellar. CP did not make the cut. They were slightly cheaper and nearby however I was happy to pay the slight upcharge from CP rates because I KNEW the envelopes would get to their respective destinations on time with a high degree of certainty. And both did.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> ... So, all things being equal, if we have to choose between two on line vendors for a product, the vendor who uses UPS, etc. vs. CP/Purolator will win out. ...


 ... agree. Good to know which vendor(s) uses the most effective courier, thanks. 

In summary, I think UPS is best, followed by FedEx and poor CP the last (if all avoidable). Sad.


----------



## carverman

Yes, I got a new thread deleted today and it was about cell phone batteries...you just never know these days. 


> So what happens if December 12 comes and your new wheelchair batteries are not here ... will you be okay?


I don't trust CP with this shipment any more. I will be ordering a new set on Dec12th and making sure it is sent by UPS.
So far the original set are working and I will have to get a friend or neighbour to help me put the new ones in.


----------



## blueeyetea

HaroldCrump said:


> Canada Post has yet to pay up for its pension deficits.
> Those profit numbers do not include any accounting for that.


A deficit showed up in the liability section of the annual report in 2013. So, what are you going on about? Plus, it doesn't have to pay for the deficit until 2017, if it still exists. That was the whole point of the reprieve from the Government.



HaroldCrump said:


> At the beginning of 2014, the solvency deficit was about $6.5B, expected to grow to $8B by the end of 2014.
> They are still under a contribution holiday, which is being extended by the federal govt. every 6 months.


Where are you getting that information? How can CPC have a contribution holiday when there is have a solvency deficit? Maybe you're confusing terms? 

Canada Post is making contributions on the employees behalf as part of their payroll process. As for reimbursing the solvency deficit - yes, they did get a reprieve from the Government and haven't paid it yet. Remains to be seen if they will have to. 



HaroldCrump said:


> Those profit numbers are all fake, smoke & mirrors.
> If the corporation is true cash flow positive, they should start re-allocating those "profits" into the pension plan instead of declaring fake profits to facilitate more management bonuses and benefits for their union.
> 
> 
> HaroldCrump said:
> 
> 
> 
> Canada Post, as a public entity, has to follow rules and regulations about reporting their financial information, which gets audited by the Office of the Auditor General. How can they fake numbers that are available to the public via to the Access to Information Act?
> 
> In an annual report, a statement of income isn't the same as statement of cash flow. You should educate yourself on the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> HaroldCrump said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or, reduce future benefit promises (oh my, the horror !)
> 
> 
> HaroldCrump said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even if Canada Post could, it can't right now. Not until the rules and regulations governing the pension plan can be changed, and that would also affect employees of the Government of Canada - since most Canada Post employees made contributions before the plan got segregrated from the Government fund in 2000.
> 
> 
> 
> HaroldCrump said:
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to the contribution holiday, they have a $2.5B LOC from the federal govt.
> Take that away and their solvency deficit might actually be a current deficit.
> 
> 
> 
> Where is that listed? In the 2013 Annual report, on page 111, section entitled Loans and Borrowings there are 4 items:
> 
> Series 1 - bonds maturing July 2040 $488 - carrying value
> Series 2 - bonds manutring July 2025 $498 - carrying value
> Non-redeemable bonds maturing on various dates from 2014 to 2015 $55 million carrying value
> Finance lease obligations, maturing in 2014 $74M.
> 
> Other liabilities at the end of 2013 was for $1,521 with the bulk comprising trade and other payables, plus salaries and benefits.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## blueeyetea

HaroldCrump said:


> You keep saying that...have been saying that since the beginning of the thread, in spite of several people having presented clear evidence to the contrary.
> The contribution holiday, the federal LOC, the massive pension deficits, etc. are all clear evidence that CP is clearly dependent on tax-payer subsidies.


What evidence? Where is there money being exchanged between Canada Post and the Government? 

There is no contribution holiday - unless you mean funding the solvency deficit. There is no LOC from the Government, unless, you mean the reprieve on funding the solvency deficit. This reprieve is all about the Government avoiding picking up CPC's obligation to fund the deficit.


----------



## fraser

A letter of credit is meaningless unless it is exercised/used.

Canada Post is, and has been profitable.

Yes, the service could be better. And yes, Canadians like to poke fun, complain etc. at organizations such as Canada Post, Air Canada, CBC. It is our nature.

If you want to see a real, very desperate situation then take a look at the financial situation of the US Postal Service. In comparison, it will make the Canada Post.
look like a shining star.

We do not want to be there.


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> So what happens if December 12 comes and your new wheelchair batteries are not here ... will you be okay?


UPDATE: December 23, 2014. 
Canada Post couldn't find my shipment, even though they claim it was successfully delivered. These are
sealed lead acid batteries...the vendor reversed the charge on my CC to reimburse me.

The subsequent order to the same vendor that was *supposed to be delivered by Fedex,* never got shipped apparently, although a tracking number was issued by email. Got a refund on that one as well.

Found the same batteries in Ottawa, albeit a little bit higher in price, got them delivered and installed the same day.

So far, my shipments by CP even from the US have been on time and delivered to my door.

The mystery with the first battery order may never be solved. 
The second order, the vendor messed up. Won't deal with them again.


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> UPDATE: December 23, 2014. ...
> 
> Found the same batteries in Ottawa, albeit a little bit higher in price, got them delivered and installed the same day.
> 
> So far, my shipments by CP even from the US have been on time and delivered to my door.
> 
> The mystery with the first battery order may never be solved.
> The second order, the vendor messed up. Won't deal with them again.


 ... okay good to know this problem has been resolved. :encouragement:

I was thinking where your first battery might have ended up at CP - the NorthPole ... Santa's elves might have borrowed it for the boss' sled since your delivery was supposed to be before Christmas. :biggrin:


----------



## Beaver101

*Thieves crack Canada Post 'superboxes' in Surrey, B.C.
*

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/thieves-crack-canada-post-superboxes-in-surrey-b-c-1.2226329



> The end of Canada Post's door-to-door service has introduced a new problem in Surrey, B.C.: a rise in community mailbox break-ins.
> 
> Thieves have apparently figured out how to break into Canada Post's supposedly high-security "superboxes," leaving residents' mail vulnerable.
> 
> *Surrey resident J.P. says her community mailbox has been broken into three times since autumn, with the latest break-in coming on Wednesday. The multi-compartment mailbox was still broken and taped up on Saturday.
> *
> "It's terrifying for some people, especially the older people in our community," Parker told CTV Vancouver on Saturday.
> *
> She said she plans to buy a separate, private mailbox so her personal information will not be stolen*. ...


 .. I wonder if it would be cheaper to constantly fix or replace these superboxes versus a one day door-to-door delivery, nothing to say about the efficiency of mass-thefts given all the boxes are in one place and the ugly works of vandalism. :rolleyes2:

And now if everyone gets their own private mailbox or have no mail for delivery, what will these superboxes become? Useless dumb dumps?


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> *Thieves crack Canada Post 'superboxes' in Surrey, B.C.
> *
> 
> .. I wonder if it would be cheaper to constantly fix or replace these superboxes versus a one day door-to-door delivery, nothing to say about the efficiency of mass-thefts given all the boxes are in one place and the ugly works of vandalism. :rolleyes2:
> 
> And now if everyone gets their own private mailbox or have no mail for delivery, what will these superboxes become? Useless dumb dumps?


The private mailbox at a postal station requires to pay a $150 + taxes fee every year,
and a key deposit but at least there is some security.

My street is being converted to community mailboxes this fall and I'm concerned when I hear about incidents like these.
Don't know what they were looking for, but I would have an issue with privacy and identity theft if this is going to be the case.
If your mail gets stolen (lets say any CRA documents or T4/T5s from banking institutions) it could present a serious problem.

Not only do you have to request duplicate receipts and slips, but what is to prevent some thief from stealing your personal information and SIN and filing a bogus tax return to claim some refund? 

While it may be a money saving move for CP, it could cause all kinds of headaches for people that still get any official mail or receipts, amd if people have to resort to renting secured mailboxes, another money
maker for CP.

The CRA tax forms are available at any post office kiosk or online. 

If CRA accepts the bogus return in your name and issues a refund to the identity thief...how are you going to deal with that?
At least in my case, the tax refund is deposited into my bank account directly, so they wouldn't get at the refund through a check from CRA.


----------



## fatcat

carverman said:


> The private mailbox at a postal station requires to pay a $150 + taxes fee every year,
> and a key deposit but at least there is some security.


not if you get a crooked clerk at the pmb ... these are $10 an hour workers, not union postal workers



> If CRA accepts the bogus return in your name and issues a refund to the identity thief...how are you going to deal with that?
> At least in my case, the tax refund is deposited into my bank account directly, so they wouldn't get at the refund through a check from CRA.


of course you should do direct deposit

it is a huge mistake to think that paper and postal delivery is safer than online

online business with an up to date pc and anti-virus and password protection programs is infinitely more secure than paper ....

have your bills delivered online and paid online too, this kind of news is just going to kill the postal system bit by bit


----------



## carverman

fatcat said:


> not if you get a crooked clerk at the pmb ... these are $10 an hour workers, not union postal workers
> 
> it is a huge mistake to think that paper and postal delivery is safer than online


There is far less chance of a crooked postal clerk stealing your mail in a secure postal area, than on the street at night where thugs can break into the boxes. 



> have your bills delivered online and paid online too, this kind of news is just going to kill the postal system bit by bit


I already do, but special mail such as T4s/T5s is still sent by regular mail. It would be great if the financial institutions started to send these forms online to your email account, but they don't yet.

I would agree that over the years, erosion of revenue (at least in the cities and urban areas) will cause them to raise their postal rates to the point that their competition for alternative package deliveries will become more popular. 

Perhaps the letter mail may have to be sent by CP, but with postal rates continuously rising, the other delivery services may be an option.
However, CP could buy them out to eliminate their competition, so there may not be much choice.


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> *There is far less chance of a crooked postal clerk stealing your mail in a secure postal area, than on the street at night where thugs can break into the boxes. *


... + 1 given security cams at the kiosk/store/station.



> I already do, but *special mail such as **T4s/T5s is still sent by regular mail*. It would be great if the financial institutions started to send these forms online to your email account, but they don't yet.


 ... at least RRSP receipts are now available online as "duplicates" ... and pray that the financial institution doesn't get hacked.



> I would agree that over the years, erosion of revenue (at least in the cities and urban areas) will cause them to raise their postal rates to the point that their competition for alternative package deliveries will become more popular.
> 
> Perhaps the letter mail may have to be sent by CP, but with postal rates continuously rising, the other delivery services may be an option.
> *However, CP could buy them out to eliminate their competition, so there may not be much choice*.





> ...My street is being converted to community mailboxes this fall and *I'm concerned when I hear about incidents like these*.


... have you written to CP to voice your concern or at least fill in the online feedback? I did for both - and I'm not counting on getting a response back from the bright bulb-heads at CP. :rolleyes2:

*CP is doomed*.


----------



## m3s

CP will be fine. Internet shopping is booming

Many Canadians and people around the world have been using community mailboxes for decades.

Check your metathesiophobia


----------



## fatcat

carverman said:


> There is far less chance of a crooked postal clerk stealing your mail in a secure postal area, than on the street at night where thugs can break into the boxes.


my point was less to argue the security of a pmb versus street box and more to argue the safety of online vs physical



> I already do, but special mail such as T4s/T5s is still sent by regular mail. It would be great if the financial institutions started to send these forms online to your email account, but they don't yet.


that is a function of big financial institutions moving like icebergs but it will certainly change ... all of your forms will be online and downloadable or even just pluggable directly into your online tax form

i sell on ebay and use canadapost a lot ... they are flatly uncompetitive for all but the largest mailers

people are making a good living driving packages over the border into the usa and mailing them *back* into canada from the united states rather than use canadpost, that alone should tell you that something is wrong .... very wrong

canadapost charges like $13.00 to mail a $13.00 paperback across the country where you can do it for about $4.00 in the usa

purolator is a distant third when it comes to package delivery quality

canadapost is *doomed* ... and it can't come too quickly for me


----------



## Beaver101

Here we go again with another one . .. moving from west to east, this time in Halifax

*
Canada Post community mailbox security concerns raised again*

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/canada-post-community-mailbox-security-201335060.html



> W. and D. L of suburban Halifax say they were locked out of their community mailbox, but could open their neighbour's with their key — the latest postal service security concern in Nova Scotia.
> 
> The couple, residents of Lower Sackville, along with many other Canadians last summer stopped receiving home mail delivery, with Canada Post's switch to community mailboxes.
> 
> On Monday, *W.L. found his key wouldn't open his mailbox*.
> 
> "It's been so cold lately, I thought for the moment it was frozen. So I went home and go some de-icer. Put de-icer in the lock and nothing happened. It was loose and I could tell that it wasn't frozen and I tried all the other boxes.
> 
> "I knew there were problems with Canada Post and I had heard there were problems with the locks, so I said, 'I'll just try around and see what happens,'" said L., who said that's when *he discovered his key opened his neighbour's mailbox.* ...


 ... the manufacturer of these boxes must be happy with the business. :joyous:


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> .
> ... have you written to CP to voice your concern or at least fill in the online feedback? I did for both - and I'm not counting on getting a response back from the bright bulb-heads at CP. :rolleyes2:


Yes, I did, but they really don't care about feedback, as they are going ahead anyway.


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Yes, I did, but they really don't care about feedback, as *they are going ahead anyway*.


... that's why I say/repeat CP is doomed. :biggrin: 

Okay, in all seriousness, wouldn't you have to submit (or sign up or how/what/when?) a doctor's note ($) for an exception for door delivery in your case?


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... that's why I say/repeat CP is doomed. :biggrin:
> 
> Okay, in all seriousness, wouldn't you have to submit (or sign up or how/what/when?) a doctor's note ($) for an exception for door delivery in your case?


It's not going to happen. If I can't get to the community mailbox with my scooter due to snow storm etc, I'll have to rely on a neighbour and give him the key. 
I'm also doing some serious thinking this year of selling the place within 5 years,(if I make it that long), and moving into a wheelchair friendly apartment then. It was suggested by the rehab doctor 4 years ago, but
I've managed to keep going in my own house up to now..but it's becoming more and more difficult every
year though as the legs are getting weaker.

Right now, I've moved my MB to in front of my garage, so I can pick up my mail easier from my garage 
with my walker,and not take a chance slipping and injuring the one foot that still keeps me going. 
If I fall and injure or break that foot..I am IN SERIOUS TROUBLE..living alone.


----------



## m3s

fatcat said:


> i sell on ebay and use canadapost a lot ... they are flatly *uncompetitive* for all but the largest mailers
> 
> people are making a good living driving packages over the border into the usa and mailing them *back* into canada from the united states rather than use canadpost, that alone should tell you that something is wrong .... very wrong
> 
> canadapost charges like $13.00 to mail a $13.00 paperback across the country where you can do it for about $4.00 in the usa
> 
> purolator is a distant third when it comes to package delivery quality
> 
> canadapost is *doomed* ... and it can't come too quickly for me


If Canada Post is uncompetitive why don't you use the competition instead of shipping from the USA? Can't really compare US/Canada.. we all know they have Mexican min wage and no sales tax. I'm surprised you can sell anything on eBay from Canada when it is surely cheaper online in the US.. especially considering you pay someone to drive it to the US to ship back into Canada. You must know that UPS is the worst in that scenario?

Amazon.ca is shipping with Canada post within Canada. Anyone who knows anything about shipping to Canada from the USA is shipping with Canada Post. Most Canadians won't touch a retailer who says otherwise for fear of the infamous UPS brokerage fee that costs more than the item itself. And Purolator is a distant 3rd? So who is first? We need electronic mailboxes and drones already.. US has same day delivery in most cases now.

I actually like the community mailbox because they come with a lock and a parcel lockup. All the more reason to shop online with Canada Post.. as the others always waste 4 additional days trying to deliver parcels and then I have to drive out of my way to some industrial warehouse to find out there are additional fees for the service. Canada Post is far better for online shoppers.


----------



## nathan79

m3s said:


> Amazon.ca is shipping with Canada post within Canada. Anyone who knows anything about shipping to Canada from the USA is shipping with Canada Post. Most Canadians won't touch a retailer who says otherwise for fear of the infamous UPS brokerage fee that costs more than the item itself. And Purolator is a distant 3rd? So who is first? We need electronic mailboxes and drones already.. US has same day delivery in most cases now.


I ordered two CDs from Amazon.ca on Monday evening, got the shipped notification yesterday, and they were delivered to my door at 9:30 am this morning, all the way from Ontario. This was the FREE shipping option.

The competition is no better, and in many cases worse than Canada Post.


----------



## fatcat

m3s said:


> If Canada Post is uncompetitive why don't you use the competition instead of shipping from the USA? Can't really compare US/Canada.. we all know they have Mexican min wage and no sales tax. I'm surprised you can sell anything on eBay from Canada when it is surely cheaper online in the US.. especially considering you pay someone to drive it to the US to ship back into Canada. You must know that UPS is the worst in that scenario?
> 
> Amazon.ca is shipping with Canada post within Canada. Anyone who knows anything about shipping to Canada from the USA is shipping with Canada Post. Most Canadians won't touch a retailer who says otherwise for fear of the infamous UPS brokerage fee that costs more than the item itself. And Purolator is a distant 3rd? So who is first? We need electronic mailboxes and drones already.. US has same day delivery in most cases now.
> 
> I actually like the community mailbox because they come with a lock and a parcel lockup. All the more reason to shop online with Canada Post.. as the others always waste 4 additional days trying to deliver parcels and then I have to drive out of my way to some industrial warehouse to find out there are additional fees for the service. Canada Post is far better for online shoppers.


at least fedex and ups will make multiple delivery attempts and if you just miss them and call in they will often come back if they are in the neighborhood

purolator makes 1 try and then you have to drive to _their_ warehouse, no thanks


----------



## m3s

I have called some of them before to get a parcel left unattended but this is hit or miss and not ideal. Canada Post will either lock it in the community mailbox (reasonably safe as I don't live in a bad neighbourhood.. people literally don't lock doors) or if it's big they leave it at the corner store.. few blocks away instead of 30 min drive to the industrial sector

I've been ordering more and more from amazon.ca with the free shipping now that CAD is weak. They still charge sales tax so the cost is a wash, but their selection is catching up with the US finally and the shipping is quick and free with automatic email tracking/updates. AliExpress also has free shipping to Canada from China.. haven't tried that

The reason milkmen are going out of business is that more women work now. UPS and Fedex seem completely oblivious to this phenomenom


----------



## nathan79

UPS has been very inconsistent for us. They don't always make three attempts to deliver, sometimes they just leave the package on the doorstep. We've also had them lose packages or deliver them to the same house number on a different street. Just the other day we had a neighbour bring us a package that was left at his house.

I've had very good results with Fedex, but it's quite pricey.

We're very active internet shoppers, and I've sold quite a bit on eBay in the past. Canada Post has always been the most reliable and most reasonably priced for most situations. Hundreds of transactions and never had them lose a package.


----------



## carverman

nathan79 said:


> UPS has been very inconsistent for us. They don't always make three attempts to deliver, sometimes they just leave the package on the doorstep. We've also had them lose packages or deliver them to the same house number on a different street. Just the other day we had a neighbour bring us a package that was left at his house.
> 
> I've had very good results with Fedex, but it's quite pricey.
> 
> We're very active internet shoppers, and I've sold quite a bit on eBay in the past.* Canada Post has always been the most reliable *and most reasonably priced for most situations. Hundreds of transactions and* never had them lose a package*.


It happened to me before Christmas..actually the last week of November. CP claim my battery order was delivered,
but IF it was delivered, it was not to my doorstep. 

I called the shipper, who launched an investigation, after about 2 weeks and a few phone calls/emails later,
CP re-imbursed the shipper for the lost order, who in turn re-imbursed my CC. Shipment never showed up to this day.

I had to get the batteries locally because I didn't trust CP at that point and the batteries were on their last.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Interesting: *Postal workers union says ending home delivery is unconstitutional* The union's court filing is signed by six other organizations representing retired and handicapped citizens. The groups say eliminating home delivery discriminates against the elderly as well as people with mental and physical handicaps because it limits their access to a public service.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/postal-workers-union-says-ending-home-delivery-is-unconstitutional-1.2263433
I'm not pro-CP, but it does make me wonder how many seniors still living at home depend on home delivery. I suppose if they aren't mobile and depend on family or someone else for groceries and other outings, they can arrange for them to pick up their mail for them as well. I.e. we can't afford and shouldm't expect a gov't that tries to do 'everything' for us?


----------



## carverman

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> The groups say eliminating home delivery discriminates against the elderly as well as people with mental and physical handicaps because it limits their access to a public service.
> but it does make me wonder how many *seniors still living at home depend on home delivery. I suppose if they aren't mobile and depend on family or someone else for groceries and other outings, they can arrange for them to pick up their mail for them as well.*


I am in that "boat". Losing my mobility means that I can't just jump in my power wheelchair and head off in winter weather to collect mail at a community mailbox easily.
I will have to depend on a neighbour or friend to collect it for me in wintertime.

Fortunately, most of my mail is now converted to online statements, but some mail in tax season such as T4s/T5s are still delivered to my mailbox.


----------



## Toronto.gal

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> I suppose if they aren't mobile and depend on family or someone else for groceries and other outings, they can arrange for them to pick up their mail for them as well.


A community service run by volunteers, similar to Meals on Wheels, could help also.


----------



## Beaver101

Toronto.gal said:


> A community service run by volunteers, similar to Meals on Wheels, could help also.


 ... great idea! Another item to put on my retirement to-do-list.


----------



## kcowan

One of the problems is the laws that make mail notification essential for certain corporate obligations. This is preventing me from getting to all-electronic.


----------



## carverman

Another consequence of community mailboxes...

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/mail-carriers-edge-montreal-dozen-attacks-since-january-180053139.html



> One man usually distracts the carrier while the other approaches from behind and demands the keys, said Duguay, the local president of the Canadian Union of Postal Workers.
> *The assailants then use the keys to steal credit cards, passports and other important documents.*
> 
> "With the keys, they can r*etrieve the mail that's either in the grey boxes or in a series of letter boxes,*" he said in an interview.
> Some of the keys also provide access to apartment buildings.





> What we're telling our members is to not resist,* to hand over the keys and call the police as quickly as possible*," he added.
> "We're asking our members not to take any chances with their safety."


So it's not a case of "yer money or yer life"...it's we want your keys please!"


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Another consequence of community mailboxes...
> 
> So it's not a case of "yer money or yer life"...it's we want your keys *please*!"


 ... say please? when 



> ... Some Montreal letter carriers are on edge after *several armed attacks involving two men who use knives and scissors* to steal keys to mail boxes.


Poor postal -guy/gal. 



> *Canada Post is adamant about moving ahead with plans to gradually reduce home mail delivery despite court challenges and calls for a moratorium by some mayors*.
> 
> Jacques Cote, who's responsible for the file, told The Canadian Press this week the Crown corporation has no choice but to go that route because of a continuing drop in letter volume.
> 
> *He also said Canada Post is ready to defend its position all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada.*
> 
> "We think we're on solid footing and that *our position is legal*," Cote added.


 ... will be interesting to see if the SCOC will see this as constitutional. Nothing to say about the absolute arrogance of CP's brass. :rolleyes2:


----------



## MrMatt

carverman said:


> Another consequence of community mailboxes...
> 
> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/mail-carriers-edge-montreal-dozen-attacks-since-january-180053139.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So it's not a case of "yer money or yer life"...it's we want your keys please!"



How is taking the delivery bag from the guy at the postal box any different from taking it from the same delivery guy as he walks door to door?


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> How is taking the delivery bag from the guy at the postal box any different from taking it from the same delivery guy as he walks door to door?


 ...huh? These thugs didn't want the postal delivery guy his bag of letters. They wanted the "keys to the super-mail-boxes" from the postal delivery guy so they can help themselves to the contents in those boxes at their convenience. 

I'm sure Mr. Carver-man will also provide you with his answer to your question in due time. :biggrin:


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ...huh? These thugs didn't want the postal delivery guy his bag of letters. They wanted the "keys to the super-mail-boxes" from the postal delivery guy so they can help themselves to the contents in those boxes at their convenience.
> 
> I'm sure Mr. Carver-man will also provide you with his answer to your question in due time. :biggrin:


No, I won't. it was self explanatory.


----------



## Beaver101

^ OK, you're correct. But I thought your answer would be more interesting. :biggrin:


----------



## Beaver101

This could also fall under the Scams Alert thread but as the target is CP's customers, here it goes,

*Canada Post scam sends out suspicious emails of missed delivery*



> Canada Post has issued a warning against a sophisticated scam that is mimicking its email and branding.
> 
> L.G., who lives in the Lower Mainland, says she was the target of one of those email scammers.
> 
> "It said that there was a delivery that was unsuccessful and that if I wanted to attempt to be sent again, that I should click onto the link that they had which would give me an electronic delivery card," she said.
> 
> G. was suspicious because she has been home all Tuesday morning and couldn't have missed a package.
> 
> While she didn't click on the link, she says it was tempting, because *it looked official *except for the fact that it had also been addressed to two other people. ...


https://ca.news.yahoo.com/canada-post-scam-sends-suspicious-044020163.html


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> This could also fall under the Scams Alert thread but as the target is CP's customers, here it goes,
> 
> *Canada Post scam sends out suspicious emails of missed delivery*
> 
> 
> 
> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/canada-post-scam-sends-suspicious-044020163.html


I would have moved that to* "phishing scams"...I think we need a new category as CP is not the only ones affected with
fraudulent emails asking the receipient to click on a link supplied.*
*
As soon as they do..the chance of getting a virus, or a trojan..hijacking your computer is pretty much guaranteed.*

THESE PHISHING EMAILS ARE BECOMING MORE AND MORE FREQUENT NOW. ..EVEN SOME FROM LEGITIMATE BANKS.


----------



## heyjude

Canada Post's service continues to deteriorate.

Recently I had a package "delivered" by Canada Post. In other words, the tracking log showed "attempted delivery, nobody home". Did they ring the doorbell? NOOOO, that would have been too much trouble. Was I out? No, I was at home waiting for the delivery. It was a big box. If I didn't own a car it would have been a challenge to get it home from the Canada Post shop.

And then there's the sheer carelessness. Four long term residents in my building have had their properly addressed mail dumped in the "return to sender" box. Some of it was time sensitive mail, like T5s. Grrrrr!


----------



## kcowan

There is another hole in their service. You can request a temporary change of address online. The only safeguard is that they send a postcard with the details to your home. They make the assumption that your mail never gets misdirected. Some mailings slip through as well even though redirected.


----------



## Beaver101

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/canada-posts-super-mailboxes-spur-090000966.html
*
Canada Post's 'super' mailboxes spur growing backlash*



> *The backlash against Canada Post is growing, with four mayors in the greater Montreal area joining the legal battle against the Crown corporation's decision to phase out urban home mail *delivery by 2018.
> 
> Montreal Mayor Denis Coderre says he and the mayors of Laval, Longueil and Westmount are frustrated with the "cavalier" approach of Canada Post to complaints about community mailboxes since the plan was announced in December 2013.
> 
> *They'll be joining a union lawsuit before the Federal Court aimed at overturning the post office's decision *to replace door-to-door delivery with so-called "superboxes."
> 
> Here are some of the efforts underway to fight Canada Post. ...


 ... yep, Canada Post's ever-so-brilliant management sending themselves to __fill in the blank ____ .:biggrin:


----------



## Beaver101

*Canada Post to keep door-to-door delivery in downtown core 

As Canada Post draws up initial plans to end door-to-door home mail delivery, it says it will likely keep it in downtown core.*

http://www.thestar.com/business/2015/06/12/canada-post-to-keep-door-to-door-delivery-in-downtown-core.html

^ ... the fruition of CP's management's brilliant plan ... and more to come. :stupid:



:victorious: for downtown TO though.


----------



## carverman

> Residents who live in Toronto’s downtown core will likely get to keep door-to-door home delivery because they represent few addresses, Canada Post says.


So this can be considered discrimination by CP and someone should launch a class action lawsuit and take it to the SCC. What a messed up Corporation.
I guess there is no sidewalk space there for their super mailboxes?


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> So this can be considered discrimination by CP and someone should launch a class action lawsuit and take it to the SCC. *What a messed up Corporation.*?


 ... you said it - it IS one holy-messed up corp(?)? Now the rest of the province or even other sections of the city is going to hate (downtown) Toronto.




> I guess there is no sidewalk space there for their super mailboxes?


 ... no space for those fugly boxes. And even there was sidewalk space available, city owns it and not leasing .. who is going to maintain them? with all the overflowing flyers garbage, nothing to say about vandalism, and graffiti (major problem for the city) also.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> it IS *one holy-messed up corp*(?)? Now the rest of the province or even other sections of the city is going to *hate (downtown) Toronto*.


 ... and downtown Montreal. At least downtown TO won't be alone on this. :biggrin:


*
Canada Post says community mailboxes not possible for most of downtown Montreal*

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/canada-post-says-community-mailboxes-153954209.html



> *Downtown Montreal will be mostly exempt from Canada Post's plan to ditch door-to-door delivery *and erect community mailboxes later this summer.
> 
> A Canada Post spokesperson told Daybreak host Mike Finnerty on Wednesday that the makeup of Montreal's downtown core makes it difficult to change the area's mailing system.
> 
> "A lot of downtown Montreal will actually not be converted because it's mostly businesses, apartment complexes and there is very little door-to-door delivery," said Canada Post spokesperson Anick Losier.
> 
> "The Plateau is a great example and* there's no space on the Plateau*." ...


----------



## Cal

Some parts of Ontario will be giving Canada post more business with having to mail out report cards....


----------



## Beaver101

^ Postage increase can't arriver faster with this mid-summer advance announcement.

*Canada Post to hike stamp prices to 90 cents next year. *

http://www.thestar.com/business/2015/07/09/canada-post-to-hike-stamp-prices-to-90-cents-next-year.html



> Canada Post to hike stamp prices to 90 cents next year
> 
> *Blaming a steep drop in mail volumes*, Canada Post says it has to raise domestic stamps to 90 cents, up from 85 cents.


 ... yeah, yeah, yeah, excuse, excuses, excuses ...


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Postage increase can't arriver faster with this mid-summer advance announcement.
> 
> ... yeah, yeah, yeah, excuse, excuses, excuses ...


Good news for me. CP does deliver. I ordered two new batteries from Saskatchewan on Monday (6th) and they arrived at my doorstep today (9th in the AM) ..installed already..and free shipping too!


----------



## MrMatt

I have had a superbox for 5 years now, and it's great.
Most people don't get door to door delivery anyway.


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Good news for me. CP does deliver. I ordered two new batteries from Saskatchewan on Monday (6th) and they arrived at my doorstep today (9th in the AM) ..installed already..and *free shipping too*!


... I presumed the mail-order seller/retailer has paid for the delivery charges. Why wouldn't CP deliver if they haven't imposed those stoopid boxes for your community yet?


----------



## Cal

I don't even need my mail delivered daily, I would be fine with Mon/Wed/Fri delivery for regular postal service to save them some $$.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I think a lot of mail recipients would be satisfied with just once a week delivery than wasting a ton of $$$ purchasing, installing and maintaining those stooped fugly boxes and paying those fataxx executives. 

Not enough good news about CP NOT!:

*Ottawa gardener wants to return community mailboxes to sender.*

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/ottawa-gardener-says-return-to-sender-on-canada-224045894.html


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ^ I think a lot of mail recipients would be satisfied with just once a week delivery than wasting a ton of $$$ purchasing, installing and maintaining those stooped fugly boxes and paying those fataxx executives.
> 
> *Ottawa gardener wants to return community mailboxes to sender.*


Just say how you feel Beav. :biggrin:

They are being installed on my street now..fortunately, it's on a cul-de-sac that my back yard happens to border on,
and I use this street to get into my back yard with my scooter.

I installed a remote opener battery operated pedestrian gate, so I can get into my back yard with my scooter, so I can visit my community mb every day during the 8 months it will be accessible for me.

I don't get much snail mail these days, but once or twice a week, I may get a letter, or bill that I haven't had time to convert to online billing because so far..at least
there has been no incentive for me to convert, but it looks like I will have to do that before this winter.

I should be able to access my community MB from mid march to end of November, so it's the winter months....where we get substantial snowfalls where I will have to get a friend or neighbour to check it. 

I guess, like everything else these days...we will get used to getting our own mail..but I will miss the convenience of having it delivered to my
mb at my doorstep. 

Like everything else these days, we pay more and get less.


----------



## Beaver101

Got to salute this guy :encouragement:
*
Edmonton senior digs in to stamp out Canada Post community mailbox
*https://ca.news.yahoo.com/edmonton-senior-digs-stamp-canada-141932631.html



> Ken Pudetz is staging a sit-in against Canada Post.
> 
> Alone. In his own front yard.
> 
> The 76-year old is upset - he says he's too old to get angry - about a decision to put a community mailbox in front of his Mill Woods home. ...
> 
> ...
> Pudetz said many people on his street don't want community mailboxes.
> 
> "*The whole thing is so stupid*," he said. "And my neighbours are very angry. I don't get angry ... because I'm too old for angry."
> 
> His fight isn't with postal workers, whom he calls "a class to themselves."
> 
> "God bless the post office," he said.
> 
> As a young man, he lived in a small town and actually worked sorting mail … for Canada Post.
> 
> "I used to take mail out of the bags and put it into little pigeonholes for all the little communities down the railroad tracks. And was it ever hard work. It was so hard, I enlisted in the armed forces."
> 
> *But he still thinks community mailboxes are stupid. ...
> 
> *


----------



## Beaver101

*Canada Post suspends community mail box program, affecting 460,000 homes*
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/canada-post-still-erecting-lock-boxes-despite-liberal-164307487.html

Saving lots of money! I wonder if any heads are ever going to roll at CP :rolleyes2:


----------



## sags

Good..........Canada Post is making a nice profit and provides a decent living for a lot of fellow Canadians.


----------



## RBull

Canada Post should just go ahead as planned. The original rationale for going to community mailboxes hasn't changed. 

Yes, good news CP is making money, so they don't need to seek taxpayers money for anything.


----------



## fraser

I don't care if they carry on as planned or switch to three day delivery. Just as long as they do not rely on a government subsidy.

Clearly a change in their business model is required. Just look at the financial mess that the US Postal Service is in thanks to political interference. Second only to their Social Security funding fiasco.


----------



## HaroldCrump

sags said:


> Good..........Canada Post is making a nice profit and provides a decent living for a lot of fellow Canadians.


Governments provincially and federally are destroying equally decent living jobs for a lot of other fellow Canadians, while creating public sector/crown corp. jobs for their unionized donors & supporters.
Just this week, Shell withdrew $2B in capex funding in the oil sands because of the inertia in pipeline development.
In the last 6 - 8 months, many energy companies have reduced their earnings forecasts due to the corporate tax hike.

This is manufacturing redux...energy servicing capital is pouring into Mexico, while fleeing Canada.
The Mexican govt. has been opening up the energy sector and have made it clear that foreign capital investment is more than welcome.
They need billions in capex, just like Canada does.

We lost the manufacturing war with Mexico, and now it seems we may lose the energy war too.
Govt. can keep celebrating how many well-paying public sector jobs they are creating...after a while, all foreign capital would have flown and all that is left will be a lot of paper-pushing govt. jobs, with no money to fund it.


----------



## fraser

It is great to say we should maintain home delivery but in the same breath we know that we have to pick some less than pleasant options..

-increased postage fees
-government subsidies
-reduced delivery days

...and there are no doubt more. 

One thing is very clear. First class mail is declining. Mail revenues will go one way, costs the other. Something has to give.


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## nathan79

I feel that the best compromise would be to focus on parcel delivery and reduce lettermail to 2 or 3 days per week delivery.

One thing I don't understand about the community mailboxes is how few spaces they have for parcels. Internet shopping is only going to increase.


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## AltaRed

nathan79 said:


> One thing I don't understand about the community mailboxes is how few spaces they have for parcels. Internet shopping is only going to increase.


The new style boxes are wider and lower than the original style to accommodate many typical 'smaller' parcels. To the extent there is not enough room OR the parcel is too big for the bigger parcel boxes, there is a card in your personal box to pick it up at your nearest postal station.


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## Beaver101

*Canada Post's new community mailboxes frozen shut on P.E.I.* 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-community-mailboxes-canada-post-1.3334494

:rolleyes2:


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## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> *Canada Post's new community mailboxes frozen shut on P.E.I.*
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-community-mailboxes-canada-post-1.3334494
> 
> :rolleyes2:





> Canada Post is taking the blame, saying the new boxes have a different lock design that is more susceptible to freezing.


You would have thought that they had some real brains working there to ensure that the new mailboxes were tested in freezing rain environment..but Noooo...CP is just a dumb Crown
Corporation that is only interested in making a profit.

Back in September, the key insertion tumbler on mine got stuckr when they first installed these things. 

The key would not go in..had to go back into the garage and get some WD40 to spray the key slot, after which the key went in all the way and rotated the lock to open the box door.:rolleyes-new:


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## Beaver101

https://ca.yahoo.com/news/canada-post-replacing-defective-community-134230262.html



> Canada Post is changing thousands of defective locks on new community mailboxes after it received complaints from residents across the country unable to access their mail last winter.
> 
> *The Crown corporation's massive overhaul of locks is taking place across Quebec and also in other provinces such as Newfoundland, Ontario and Prince Edward Island, Radio-Canada has learned.
> *
> *"We won't disclose the numbers, but we are changing the locks in areas where problems occurred last year," said Phil Legault, a spokesperson for Canada Post.
> 
> *The initiative comes after residents complained of having to wait days and sometimes weeks before they could retrieve their mail because their community mailboxes were frozen shut.
> 
> Canada Post accepted blame last year, saying the lock design on new boxes is susceptible to freezing when the cold weather sets in.
> 
> *About 50,000 locks needs to be changed in the region of Saguenay*, according to information obtained by Radio-Canada. ...


... the news that keep on giving. :watermelon:


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## Beaver101

Wow, so much mooola saved and converted to dung now ...

*Liberals to scrap community mail box conversions, but won’t restore door-to-door
The move by the federal Liberals means Canada Post won’t realize savings it estimated at $350 million annually from converting the remaining 4.2 million addresses across the country that still get mail dropped at their doorstep.*

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/01/24/liberals-to-roll-out-long-term-plan-to-reform-canada-post.html

:sorrow:


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## milhouse

Just to comment on the original topic, I'm pretty happy I bought a coil of those P stamps from Costco years back.


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## Koogie

milhouse said:


> Just to comment on the original topic, I'm pretty happy I bought a coil of those P stamps from Costco years back.


Why ? You can still buy permanent value stamps.


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## bgc_fan

Koogie said:


> Why ? You can still buy permanent value stamps.


It is the price. A few years ago they were 0.63 or so, now they are 0.89 or so at Costco, or $1 at the post office now.


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