# Hotel detentions



## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

I saw an article this morning saying a judge would rule on the legality of these forced hotel detentions today. I haven't been able to find the original story or any further news on this matter. The Centre for Constitutional Freedoms had made an application to the court for an injunction. The lawyer for the Centre thought the judge had been receptive to their presentation. Did anyone else see anything on this matter?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> I saw an article this morning saying a judge would rule on the legality of these forced hotel detentions today. I haven't been able to find the original story or any further news on this matter. The Centre for Constitutional Freedoms had made an application to the court for an injunction. The lawyer for the Centre thought the judge had been receptive to their presentation. Did anyone else see anything on this matter?


Would be an interesting argument, I don't even have an idea how you could argue they're illegal under any law.
The constitution is very clear that this type of reasonable restriction is permitted.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Would be an interesting argument, I don't even have an idea how you could argue they're illegal under any law.
> The constitution is very clear that this type of reasonable restriction is permitted.
> [/QUOTE The Charter of Rights is pretty clear about a few matters like the right to legal counsel, the right to bail and judicial review and protections against arrest and confinement. I didn't say I wanted to argue these points and I simply asked whether anyone had come across any news on the judges ruling. If you have some news on this it would be appreciated. You have expressed your legal opinion. I would like to know what the court might say.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I guess the biggest reason the detentions are silly is that after 3 days whether you retest negative or positive you still return home to finish your quarantine. It is pure punishment for travelling, not an effort to control Covid.

Hopefully the judge throws these useless rules out, Hawaii has shown how travelling is safe. Meanwhile Canada goes medieval on its citizens for zero gain while the thousands of imported temporary workers from high risk countries do not have to put up with Trudeau's cockroach gulag.

When questioned by Michelle Rempel our Libs have been unable to explain how this program has had any merit. No surprise.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

I think that this is just "theater". 

The reality is the Federal government never took closing the borders or the quarantine seriously. They're just trying to blunt the critics.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> The reality is the Federal government never took closing the borders or the quarantine seriously. They're just trying to blunt the critics.


Yup, they should have closed all international airports for non-essential passengers except Alert and Resolute Bay.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Btw heres instructions to join the lawsuit if you are returning to Canada and not happy about being part of the 3 day Trudope gulag.

*To be considered for the action against the federal government on forced quarantine and PCR tests, *send us an email * <[email protected]>; with all of the following questions answered:*



Your name, address, phone number and email address
When do you expect to be traveling back to Canada?
When did you leave?
Have you already been taken into custody or subject to quarantine? Give us the details of what happened, where you were taken, how long you were held, and anything that was said to you.
Tell us about yourself and why you have traveled (or will be travelling), if it was for work, and who was traveling with you (ie, spouse, partner, children, parents).
Please tell us if you have any specific health, religious, family, lifestyle, or work concerns that would be affected if you were subject to federal mandatory quarantine (Examples: I am returning and have a surgery date. I have special dietary needs due to religion or allergies.)
Are you prepared to be part of our legal action, which means being named on our application and provide us with your written story in affidavit form telling of your experiences coming into Canada?
Do you understand that our services are free of charge and that we rely on private donations only?
PLEASE USE SUBJECT: *Join Travel Lawsuit*


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

The judge denied the injunction. Their will be a court hearing to decide the legality of the hotel detentions.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

What's the constitutionality of negligently importing and spreading a disease into your country especially when you already know the efforts being made to control it?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Eder said:


> I guess the biggest reason the detentions are silly is that after 3 days whether you retest negative or positive you still return home to finish your quarantine. It is pure punishment for travelling, not an effort to control Covid.
> 
> Hopefully the judge throws these useless rules out, Hawaii has shown how travelling is safe. Meanwhile Canada goes medieval on its citizens for zero gain while the thousands of imported temporary workers from high risk countries do not have to put up with Trudeau's cockroach gulag.
> 
> When questioned by Michelle Rempel our Libs have been unable to explain how this program has had any merit. No surprise.


Deterring travel is an effort to control Covid.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Eder said:


> Btw heres instructions to join the lawsuit if you are returning to Canada and not happy about ...


Not happy?

Sounds like a bunch of bad drivers not happy with stricter traffic enforcement .

Who cares about your victims if they get in the way of your right to be irresponsible.

If you're not happy with the 3-day wait for your test results, don't travel. Save your money.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Some of us have differing views...so far thats still OK in Trudeau's Canada. btw this law doesn't affect me personally but does affect many of my friends.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Tostig said:


> What's the constitutionality of negligently importing and spreading a disease into your country especially when you already know the efforts being made to control it?


You mean to say all the testing we have arrived with and vaccines we took still have us importing disease? I guess we are being lied to by scientists.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Other countries are lifting restrictions for people who've been vaccinated. There are discussions about vaccine passports. Most seniors returning from the USA will be fully vaccinated. According to the CDC people who have been vaccinated are not a risk of transmitting covid and are not asymptomatic. That appears to be the direction and position of the international community. Will be interested if this issue will be argued at the hearing.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Eder said:


> You mean to say all the testing we have arrived with and vaccines we took still have us importing disease? I guess we are being lied to by scientists.


Not lied to by scientists but by the deniers.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Eder said:


> Some of us have differing views...so far thats still OK in Trudeau's Canada.


Don't worry, He's working on that.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Don't worry, He's working on that.


I wouldn't want to return to the Harper days when you were an enemy of the state if you disagreed with him.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

zinfit said:


> Other countries are lifting restrictions for people who've been vaccinated. There are discussions about vaccine passports. Most seniors returning from the USA will be fully vaccinated. According to the CDC people who have been vaccinated are not a risk of transmitting covid and are not asymptomatic. That appears to be the direction and position of the international community. Will be interested if this issue will be argued at the hearing.


No one seems to want to respond to this reality. The CSA estimates 300,000 snowbirds went south this winter and I expect that almost everyone of them was fully vaccinated. The CDC says there is no need to quarantine a vaccinated person who might have been in contact with a person who had covid. If true should such individuals be subject to hotel detentions? if yes can we get a rational explanation.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

cainvest said:


> Yup, they should have closed all international airports for non-essential passengers except Alert and Resolute Bay.


Except most of the initial importation came from residents coming back from the US after spring break. Part of the problem was the non-enforcement of a strict quarantine like they did in New Zealand. But look at the push back with the half-hearted measure now after a year. Imagine trying to implement when the situation was no where near as dire.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Tostig said:


> I wouldn't want to return to the Harper days when you were an enemy of the state if you disagreed with him.


Sorry, it's Trudeau who wants to criminalize disagreement.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-misinformation-disinformation-law-1.5532325



Remember it is the Trudeau government that was spreading disinformation, while they were talking about criminalizing disinformation.
Specifically they didn't recommend masks and they also said there was no reason for travel restrictions.

Personally I'd rather a free debate where we can freely discuss and debate the issue, rather than criminalizing one side. But authoritarians like Trudeau are scared of the truth.
That's why they want to shut down debate, because they know their position can't stand scrutiny. "The debate is over" is code for "I know I'll lose if you get to talk."

However I'm open to learn, please support your claim that Harper deemed anyone an enemy of the state for disagreeing with him.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I don't travel during covid and don't do a lot of it when the world is not in a pandemic so I like to think my opinion on the matter is very unbiased. I look at the situation purely from a pandemic effort point of view.

In my opinion, if a person shows a negative PCR test OR a confirmation of proper vaccination they are infinitely safer then me or any of my Canadian neighbors, when it comes to covid safety.

As for interfering with travel to prevent variants, that is really just wishful thinking. We still need food and other goods, shipped into the country, provided to us by foreign citizen's and I have no doubt they are just as capable of bringing whichever virus is dominant in the world at the time, into our country. We cannot keep these viruses out with travel restrictions.

If any issue from travel interferes with our fight with the pandemic it almost always will be a result of specific travelers, NOT the travel itself. We need to keep in mind that if we prevent these specific bad covid citizens from traveling, just about every problem they can create in a foreign country, they can create staying in this country. So these restrictions don't do much to fight that problem. As for the snowbirds and that type of traveller, I am sure they can protect themselves just as well outside Canada as they can inside, and all they have to do to prove it to me is show a neg. PCR test or vaccination confirmation. We know they could not possibly have access to less vaccine wherever they are.

Anyway, the travel restrictions, from what I have seen is purely political. It was implemented to deal with the anger that Canadians had, that pretty much got overblown with our politicians that travelled. The politician's travel cases was specific to them. They needed to be held to a higher standard. That is a different issue, but it did get these other restrictions started. If no one wanted to get re-elected, I am pretty sure they would not have wasted the resources they are on most of these travel restrictions.

That is my opinion.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Will there be a standard government issued vaccination visa ? Will there be a registry ?

Who is going to track vaccinations, so they can be checked at the border ?

How do border agents check vaccine records from foreign countries ?

Vaccination letters etc. could be easily forged, so would there have to be an official passport ith holograms or something that was official documentation ?

Somebody from Asia showing up with a letter........pfft.......anyone can create one of those.

Frankly, I don't see how this "vaccine visa" idea could even get implemented.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

You have accurately summarized this situation.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

With a USA vaccination you receive a CDC vaccination card setting out the details of your vaccination. Each state maintains a registry for your vaccination. You can quickly get a copy of that registration and there are things on that document which makes forgeries a major challenge. Both of these document should adequately address any concerns about forgeries. Lets be clear the issue of forged documents isn't unique to vaccination documents.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I have mentioned previously that our government is delusional if they believe that our citizens will not ever need to prove vaccination. I don't have the solution but I think we all can see the problem.

I have mentioned quite a few times that at this time, this pandemic fight should be widely understood and can now be put into very simple terms. To fight the Covid-19 pandemic we should put our entire focus on two specific efforts:

*1) Stop unprotected indoor gatherings. This include social gathering, workplace gathering and gathering in vehicles.
2) Vaccinate as many people as possible as quickly as possible starting with the most vulnerable first.*

If any pandemic fighting efforts are brought up that do not relate to those two efforts, they are simply a distraction of the effort and attention that should be taking place instead.

Travel restrictions are one of the many distractions currently happening, in my opinion, that is getting in the way of the useful fight against this pandemic.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

OptsyEagle said:


> I have mentioned previously that our government is delusional if they believe that our citizens will not ever need to prove vaccination. I don't have the solution but I think we all can see the problem.
> 
> I have mentioned quite a few times that at this time, this pandemic fight should be widely understood and can now be put into very simple terms. To fight the Covid-19 pandemic we should put our entire focus on two specific efforts:
> 
> ...


Actually I'd fix that up a bit

0.5) Block non-essential international travel. The third wave is significantly influenced by the variants, which wouldn't be here in these numbers if they closed the borders.
If we're going to have a lockdown, we should have actually locked down.


I agree that there will be pressure to provide documents to government officials on demand.
People always seem to think of good reasons to allow a police state, I do believe that the average person is well meaning.
The problem is that when you give government power, someone will abuse that power.
I do not think it is acceptable for a government official to have the ability to arbitrarily interfere with the exercise constitutionally protected rights.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

zinfit said:


> With a USA vaccination you receive a CDC vaccination card setting out the details of your vaccination. Each state maintains a registry for your vaccination. You can quickly get a copy of that registration and there are things on that document which makes forgeries a major challenge. Both of these document should adequately address any concerns about forgeries.


Since we know other documents have been forged despite security features, I'm not so sure concerns about forgeries have been adequately addressed.

And does this mean that other countries will have access to the state registries, should they question the document being presented?

Keep in mind that with the rise in social media, people are posting pictures of their vaccination cards despite personal info being on it to the point that the FTC and the BBB are putting out warnings to avoid this.. It suggests that compared to other documents, forgers have an easy source of a good chunk of what they need.


Cheers


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Actually I'd fix that up a bit
> 
> 0.5) Block non-essential international travel. The third wave is significantly influenced by the variants, which wouldn't be here in these numbers if they closed the borders.
> If we're going to have a lockdown, we should have actually locked down.
> ...


S far in 2021 we have had extremely restrictive travel requirements and the variants are here and expanding. These variants are a case of the covid 19mutating into different forms. It is much more complicated that shutting down borders.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

There are people who have obtained fake PCR test results. Those people have been tracked and are facing some very serious legal consequences. The USA registers can't be accessed on line by border agents. In terms of USA vaccinations there is a pretty strong system in place. I have doubts about what is happening in Canada. Are people being given a certificate and are the provinces registering each vaccination? In the long term it might become a problem for Canadian travellers wishing to go south or elsewhere.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

zinfit said:


> There are people who have obtained fake PCR test results. Those people have been tracked and are facing some very serious legal consequences. The USA registers can't be accessed on line by border agents. In terms of USA vaccinations there is a pretty strong system in place. I have doubts about what is happening in Canada. Are people being given a certificate and are the provinces registering each vaccination? In the long term it might become a problem for Canadian travellers wishing to go south or elsewhere.


Sorry a misquote border agents can access the state registry system.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> S far in 2021 we have had extremely restrictive travel requirements and the variants are here and expanding. These variants are a case of the covid 19mutating into different forms. It is much more complicated that shutting down borders.


The foreign variants can be traced to those countries.
We did not effectively quarantine people coming from those countries. B.1.1.7 aka the UK variant is spreading quite rapidly.








Cases of COVID-19 variants on the rise in Canada, fuelling concerns over third wave


The number of cases of variants of concern in the country is rising, Canada's chief public health officer said Monday as provinces ramped up their vaccination programs in the hopes of heading off a possible third wave of COVID-19.




www.ctvnews.ca





Yes it is "more complicated", but if we can't get the simple stuff right, are we going to get the complicated stuff done?

Even now (or at least recently) there are reports that people are walking past police to leave the airports and not going into quarantine.
Maybe it got better, but Trudeaus government has been lying to us for a year, I'm not suddenly going to start believing him.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> The foreign variants can be traced to those countries.
> We did not effectively quarantine people coming from those countries. B.1.1.7 aka the UK variant is spreading quite rapidly.
> 
> 
> ...


agreed keep it simple. People who have been vaccinated aren't the problem. In fact vaccination is the solution not the problem.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> agreed keep it simple. People who have been vaccinated aren't the problem. In fact vaccination is the solution not the problem.


Sure
and the government permitting the import of the foreign variants is also part of the problem.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> There are people who have obtained fake PCR test results. Those people have been tracked and are facing some very serious legal consequences. The USA registers can't be accessed on line by border agents. In terms of USA vaccinations there is a pretty strong system in place. I have doubts about what is happening in Canada. Are people being given a certificate and are the provinces registering each vaccination? In the long term it might become a problem for Canadian travellers wishing to go south or elsewhere.


Yes, isn't this fraud?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Sure
> and the government permitting the import of the foreign variants is also part of the problem.


They were never going to be able to seal the border. The most they could do is require supervised quarantine in hotels. But essential workers cross the border every day (or society would grind to a halt) and if the US is allowing travel it would not be very effective. It is just a matter of time.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> They were never going to be able to seal the border. The most they could do is require supervised quarantine in hotels. But essential workers cross the border every day (or society would grind to a halt) and if the US is allowing travel it would not be very effective. It is just a matter of time.


True, but they could have dramatically reduced it.
Windsor is performing horribly because of the insane number of cross border workers. There are a huge number of health care workers who commute.

But many other areas don't have daily commuters, and honestly nobody is doing a daily commute to the UK.
They should have had a supervised quarantine from the start, or at least after the first wave when this was manageable.

I'll admit that I think Trudeau failed to handle this crisis (and governing in general) in almost every way. I've been very critical, and I think his complete failure to even make a good faith attempt to enforce the quarantine was grossly negligent.

I think they could have easily done much better, and think that they were in many ways actively working to make things worse.

Just to be fair, I detest Trudeau, but if you look back, I did comment that I thought his simple, short briefings during the early stages were a good idea and well executed. So as much as I think he is a horrible failure, I won't claim he did everything wrong. He just did a lot wrong, and likely contributed to the death of many citizens.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

andrewf said:


> Yes, isn't this fraud?


Yes


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

zinfit said:


> Sorry a misquote border agents can access the state registry system ...


A Canadian border agent has online access to each state's vaccination database?
Do you a reference for that?


That's incredibly quick, given each state is likely to do their own thing in terms of software and remote access capability. Plus it's likely not something that was on the radar as a need.


Cheers


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> Sorry a misquote border agents can access the state registry system.


Can you substantiate this claim?


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

andrewf said:


> They were never going to be able to seal the border. The most they could do is require supervised quarantine in hotels. But essential workers cross the border every day (or society would grind to a halt) and if the US is allowing travel it would not be very effective. It is just a matter of time.


There is a lot of pressure on Biden here in the USA to open the Canadian border to vaccinated people & those that have already had Covid. The Mexican border has never actually closed to travellers.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Eder said:


> The Mexican border has never actually closed to travellers.


Is this statement false then?

The United States will temporarily limit inbound land border crossings from Canada and Mexico to “essential travel”.
Travel Restrictions - Fact Sheet | U.S. Embassy & Consulates in Mexico


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Can you substantiate this claim?


First hand experience. I was vaccinated in Texas and the immunization form I filled out disclosed who had access to my record. It included border agencies and public health agencies. The form was a CDC approved form and i expect it is standard with the other states. Friends in Arizona indicated the same process.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

zinfit said:


> First hand experience. I was vaccinated in Texas and the immunization form I filled out disclosed who had access to my record. It included border agencies and public health agencies. The form was a CDC approved form and i expect it is standard with the other states. Friends in Arizona indicated the same process.


I have both documents. I made photo copies. The state registration record when photo copied misses a lot of stuff including the State of Texas imprint . Anyways I will not put at risk my ability to travel, the risk of a criminal conviction with serious fines and jail term in an attempt to use fake documents. Eventually a protocol will be established to obtain a vaccine passport much like the regular passport. I have both documents and I believe they should be sufficient. I suppose there is a risk that some AO will try to fool with a fake document. I don't think that should become the basis or we will create a red tape nightmare. We have to be able to move forward unless we want to live in a permanent lockdown hermit society. The vaccines are extremely protective and effective . I believe the total number of people in the big four clinical trials was 150,000 and only one person was hospitalized. The Israeli real time experience only reinforces the success of the vaccines.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Is this statement false then?
> 
> The United States will temporarily limit inbound land border crossings from Canada and Mexico to “essential travel”.
> Travel Restrictions - Fact Sheet | U.S. Embassy & Consulates in Mexico


Yes.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

cainvest said:


> Is this statement false then?
> 
> The United States will temporarily limit inbound land border crossings from Canada and Mexico to “essential travel”.
> Travel Restrictions - Fact Sheet | U.S. Embassy & Consulates in Mexico


I winter just north of the Mexican border. American snowbirds travel to border towns on a regular daily basis. May-be the border agents accept dental work and medical drugs as essential travel? Anyways the border crossings are busy both ways. Mexican citizens have been crossing the border to get vaccinated and to shop . The parking lots have numerous Mexcan licence plated vehicles.Its one thing to have a directive and its another thing to try to enforce them. The biggest issue here is the tent camps created to house and deal with the many thousands of illegal migrants and refugees who have show up in the USA.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

zinfit said:


> ... I suppose there is a risk that some AO will try to fool with a fake document ...


I think it's more like when. Fake negative covid tests have been reported on sale in at least five countries where multiple countries report detecting fake test results that travelers presented.

It's supply, demand and potentially cheaper prices.


Cheers

*PS*
The fake CDC cards are reported to be on sale for $20 with the blank ones going for $5.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

zinfit said:


> First hand experience. I was vaccinated in Texas and the immunization form I filled out disclosed who had access to my record. It included border agencies and public health agencies. The form was a CDC approved form and i expect it is standard with the other states. Friends in Arizona indicated the same process.


So you know who could access your record but how easy and whether it is being accessed is less clear.
By any chance was CBSA on the list?


Cheers


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

The descriptions were general in nature but wide enough to include our border agencies. I got mine by requesting it at my county office.they printed it out in minutes.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

zinfit said:


> I winter just north of the Mexican border. American snowbirds travel to border towns on a regular daily basis.


My old travelling group just crossed into Tecate with 22 motor homes & 5th wheels last week... wagon train bound for Santispac beach near Mulege. No one needed to stop. They had all walked in the day before to get their tourist cards.

For any thinking on travelling to Hawaii it looks like vaccinated Canadians will be able to enter test and quarantine free in May.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Eder said:


> My old travelling group just crossed into Tecate with 22 motor homes & 5th wheels last week... wagon train bound for Santispac beach near Mulege. No one needed to stop. They had all walked in the day before to get their tourist cards.
> 
> For any thinking on travelling to Hawaii it looks like vaccinated Canadians will be able to enter test and quarantine free in May.


Iceland has done likewise.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

I am in a conflict of interest position. I am in the USA. I expect to return around May 1. If the hotel detention policy remains in effect I will fly to a border location and do a land crossing. I do believe that tough requirements on in coming flights is warranted. Just wished they changed the restrictions for people who have been vaccinated and have verified proof of such vaccination.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> I am in a conflict of interest position. I am in the USA. I expect to return around May 1. If the hotel detention policy remains in effect I will fly to a border location and do a land crossing. I do believe that tough requirements on in coming flights is warranted. Just wished they changed the restrictions for people who have been vaccinated and have verified proof of such vaccination.


Shouldn't you still need to quarantine in a hotel if you cross at land?


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Shouldn't you still need to quarantine in a hotel if you cross at land?


there is no hotel quarantine with a land crossing. Just a requirement to quarantine at home and submit a PCR swab at day 10.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> there is no hotel quarantine with a land crossing. Just a requirement to quarantine at home and submit a PCR swab at day 10.


Crazy, didn't realize that even a year later they still aren't enforcing the mandatory quarantine.
I can't wait for Trudeau to get out of office.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Crazy, didn't realize that even a year later they still aren't enforcing the mandatory quarantine.
> I can't wait for Trudeau to get out of office.


There is a second PCR test at the border. The home quarantine does come with surveillance. An official might come for a actual check. Phone calling is utilized. So it is far from a loose arrangement. The penalties for non-compliance are not minor. Of coarse none of this applies to the thousands that cross the border everyday for moving materials, food, products ,etc back and forth between the two countries.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

I note that 1% of the incoming airport travellers have tested positive. I think it was about 270 in total[ remember the current daily average is about 3500 for positive domestic cases] . I wonder how many of the 270 had been vaccinated. I am betting the number is a big zero.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Hawaii is up to over 25,000 people/day landing with a valid Covid test. There has been almost no cases of tourists landing with Covid although a few of them caught Covid at their resort. They have hard stats since October.

Just shows how silly Trudeau's gratuitous posturing by punishing retirees is. I agree, I can't wait for Trudeau to be out of office as well.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Eder said:


> Hawaii is up to over 25,000 people/day landing with a valid Covid test. There has been almost no cases of tourists landing with Covid although a few of them caught Covid at their resort. They have hard stats since October.
> 
> Just shows how silly Trudeau's gratuitous posturing by punishing retirees is. I agree, I can't wait for Trudeau to be out of office as well.


I love it. MrMatt hates Trudeau because the border is still too porous. You hate Trudeau cause it’s too impermeable.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> I love it. MrMatt hates Trudeau because the border is still too porous. You hate Trudeau cause it’s too impermeable.


Interesting, so which one of us is the partisan hack?

I keep forgetting the right wing position, am I supposed to be for the Authoritarian Government? or against it? As a textbook liberal, I'm so confused.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Seeing as only 1/3 of Canadians voted for our child emperor it would not be unusual for 2 out of 3 Canadians to look forward to his resignation for any reason. 
Its hard to believe any people are in favour of abusing elderly vaccinated Canadians entering Canada with a clean Covid test to boot. Amazing crowd mentality.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Shouldn't you still need to quarantine in a hotel if you cross at land?


It's clearly states in the "rule" that 3 day at hotel quarantine, applies only to Air travellers


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Crazy, didn't realize that even a year later they still aren't enforcing the mandatory quarantine.
> I can't wait for Trudeau to get out of office.


I also can't wait, but for a opposite reason


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

zinfit said:


> I am in a conflict of interest position. I am in the USA. I expect to return around May 1. If the hotel detention policy remains in effect I will fly to a border location and do a land crossing. I do believe that tough requirements on in coming flights is warranted. Just wished they changed the restrictions for people who have been vaccinated and have verified proof of such vaccination.


If person who returns to Canada is vaccinated, it's idiocy to make him stay 3 days in hotel as well as quarantine at home!
AFAIR, 3 days hotel quarantine should end Apr 21, however, most likely it will be extended.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

I note that CDC says their is no need for flying restrictions for vaccinated people. Since I will be travelling back to Alberta in May I hope health Canada and Trudeau will lift these requirements for vaccinated Canadians.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Don't hold your breath...you must be punished for living your life. On the bright side Kenney has shown to actually follow Covid science rather than bowing to the hystericals so perhaps you'll get lucky. I would count on flying to Great Falls, grab a quick Covid test at CVS then Uber to Sweetgrass...tell the grandkid he's off the will unless he picks you up at the Canadian side.

You can cross without the test...border guard may stammer a bit & threaten fines but nothing comes of it.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eder said:


> Don't hold your breath...you must be punished for living your life.


Stop being so selfish. Your desire to have fun isn't the only thing that matters.

There are people around you (the rest of society) including working-age people like me, who are in more danger now, and *our lives matter more than your desire to have FUN*. Get used to the restrictions.

You shouldn't have been traveling in the first place. The rule set by government was very clear: don't travel unless it's absolutely necessary. You violated the rule and chose to travel for fun & leisure.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Eder said:


> Don't hold your breath...you must be punished for living your life. On the bright side Kenney has shown to actually follow Covid science rather than bowing to the hystericals so perhaps you'll get lucky. I would count on flying to Great Falls, grab a quick Covid test at CVS then Uber to Sweetgrass...tell the grandkid he's off the will unless he picks you up at the Canadian side.
> 
> You can cross without the test...border guard may stammer a bit & threaten fines but nothing comes of it.


Will wait and see. Canadian policies more often then not are based on fear and hysteria. It will be hard to leave Texas and get back to a county dominated by controls , lockdowns and fear.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Stop being so selfish. Your desire to have fun isn't the only thing that matters.
> 
> There are people around you (the rest of society) including working-age people like me, who are in more danger now, and *our lives matter more than your desire to have FUN*. Get used to the restrictions.
> 
> You shouldn't have been traveling in the first place. The rule set by government was very clear: don't travel unless it's absolutely necessary. You violated the rule and chose to travel for fun & leisure.



Enough with the silly attempt of travel shaming. Travel advisories & recommendations have been in place for decades. I violated no rule as you say. And further I have lessened the danger to Canadian citizens by removing myself out of country as well as conserving precious vaccines so you can perhaps get your earlier. So your life is entirely unaffected other than for the better by my decision. You should thank me and all other snow birds for their service.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

james4beach said:


> Stop being so selfish. Your desire to have fun isn't the only thing that matters.
> 
> There are people around you (the rest of society) including working-age people like me, who are in more danger now, and *our lives matter more than your desire to have FUN*. Get used to the restrictions.
> 
> You shouldn't have been traveling in the first place. The rule set by government was very clear: don't travel unless it's absolutely necessary. You violated the rule and chose to travel for fun & leisure.


I don't live in North Korea or other such places . I am in charge of my own health. When I return to Canada I will be among the safest and healthiest people in Canada. Health Canada has made one blunder after another. I know you are part of the Trudeau cult but I am not one. I will not take any guidance from the worst PM in Canadian history.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Eder said:


> Enough with the silly attempt of travel shaming. Travel advisories & recommendations have been in place for decades. I violated no rule as you say. And further I have lessened the danger to Canadian citizens by removing myself out of country as well as conserving precious vaccines so you can perhaps get your earlier. So your life is entirely unaffected other than for the better by my decision. You should thank me and all other snow birds for their service.


Couldn't state it any better. Based on conversations with the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms 270 incoming travellers have been tested as positive. How many were snowbirds who had been vaccinated? surprise, surprise they match the Pfizer data 100% the answer is zero. These restrictions and impositions are political and punitive when it comes to snowbirds. I don't think the boy king has given much consideration as to how these 300,000 selfish snowbirds will vote in the next election.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

james4beach said:


> Stop being so selfish. Your desire to have fun isn't the only thing that matters.
> 
> There are people around you (the rest of society) including working-age people like me, who are in more danger now, and *our lives matter more than your desire to have FUN*. Get used to the restrictions.
> 
> You shouldn't have been traveling in the first place. The rule set by government was very clear: don't travel unless it's absolutely necessary. You violated the rule and chose to travel for fun & leisure.


Yes and was fully vaccinated and had a much healthier and pleasant experience then the snowshovellers back home who spent a winter as lockdown hermits. Enlighted self interests a good thing and resentment and being judgemental is a bad thing.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Eder is correct, fully vaccinated snowbirds saved hundreds thousands of vaccines to poor Canada 

Our friends who are planning to come back from Florida, told me that now there is Limo service from the border to Toronto .


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Ewww........you could get the cooties from all the other passengers who coughed, hacked and spewed their virus all over the back seats !


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Tucker Carlson: COVID internment camps, coming soon to a country near you


'Tucker Carlson Tonight' host Tucker Carlson reacts to Canada's forcing citizens to quarantine in 'government facilities'




www.foxnews.com


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Some have stated that the snowbirds are a selfish lot. First things first we have a pretty open border arrangement with the US. I have relatives and friends in the US and I received a BA degree from a USA university. When I retired in 2008 I made a decision to have a dual residence. 7 months in Canada and 5 months in the USA. I bought a home in Texas and have used it for 13 years. I want to spend those months in the USA because I have meaningful relationships and contacts in the US. I do resent people who are quick to describe my spouse and myself as a selfish, self centred people. I feel sorry for people who make those sorts of judgements. I know a large number of snowbirds . Who are they? by and large they are retired and seniors. By and large they are middle class people who raised good families , paid their taxes and played by the rules. Most have never committed a crime or committed serious offences. I am not asking for sympathy but do not believe being described as a pariah or an extremely selfish person is a deserved description. Only someone who is a member of the Trudeau cult could think that way. Snowbirds aren't close to being elitists and they don't like lectures from Trudeau types who say do as I say rather than what I do.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Are snowbirds really middle class? i Don’t think many middle class folks have homes (and often cars) in foreign countries. I think my neighbour said his Florida condo costs him around $10,000 year to keep. Seems like a lot of disposable income for a place you spend less than half the year. 

the virus arrived here from travel, and when the do not Travel guidance was issued, it still led to more travel and foreign mutations which are driving cases now. I’m over it now, but those who travelled will continue to face some matter of backlash.

I had family who travelled earlier this year, and they tried to make the point that they were “essential”. Ya, your job HERE might be essential, but travelling to Florida was not essential.

I’m not saying you are a criminal. Do what you want and deal with how people react. 
people are upset because this is a global crisis where the stronger we are together, the faster it will be over.

my family’s travel served one good purpose for me, I no longer need to tiptoe around them with how I handle my “less than perfect” environmental choices. Hey, if it’s not against the law, why do I need to recycle? Or buy sustainably? Or Drink bottled water. I’m loving the six internal combustion engines I own. I guess I can litter too, since my town doesn’t have a litter bylaw. I’m not a criminal.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Much of this US/Canada travel could be called essential, if you want, but it's a judgement call. For example most of my business connections are in the US. I could be bringing in more money if I was travelling to the US right now for meetings. I can easily justify it as "essential business". But I judge it to be too dangerous, both to myself, and society.

So I *choose* not to travel to the US, because that's the sensible thing to do. It's stupid to even travel outside your province right now, let alone another country!

I want to see the government limit both foreign and domestic, inter provincial travel. We need to isolate these provinces more. For heaven sake, we've got the Brazilian P1 variant on the loose in BC, and now Alberta has picked it up and brought it to AB.

The government isn't doing enough to protect us from a deadly threat. I want to see inter provincial travel shut down, and all foreign travel halted except the most essential. Currently we have tons of loopholes allowing all kinds of foreign travel into Canada.


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## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

My wife and I owned a condo in Phoenix for ten years. We sold last fall and are happy we did. Why did we sell? Age - I’m almost 80. Financial - our out of pocket cost was $20,000 annually. Main reason - lack of US leadership in dealing with the pandemic which translated into careless behavior of Americans. Also, disorganized private health system. I am no fan of JT and I feel he was slow in requiring testing of international arrivals. I do agree with his current policy which does have the effect of restricting non essential travel.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Theres a lot of pressure from interest groups on Biden to open the land borders to Canadians...will most likely happen in the next couple of months. (Mexico is already open)


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Well let's get some answers to one basic question. Should incoming travellers who have been fully vaccinated be subject to the hotel detention? If your your answer is yes kindly provide a scientific rational.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Are snowbirds really middle class? i Don’t think many middle class folks have homes (and often cars) in foreign countries.


 Be surprised, but they are! A lot of snowbirds even a low class, like my mom's senior house Polish grandma ....she is going to FL every winter for many, many years....she doesn't have any home there, and just working as babysitter there... driving alone or with some other guys...


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

zinfit said:


> Well let's get some answers to one basic question. Should incoming travellers who have been fully vaccinated be subject to the hotel detention? If your your answer is yes kindly provide a scientific rational.


This is the point....there is no any "*scientific rational", just jealousy that some can get out of Canada and live life!*


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Chew on this . A few days ago it was reported to a parliamentary committee that under the current travel restrictions 270 incoming travellers have tested positive. A lawyer with the Justice Center for Constitutional law says none of these people were vaccinated. The 270 was 1% of the incoming traffic. I see that we have something like 6000 people testing positive on a daily basis . What is happening with these people. The said 270 were sent to government quarantine facility. From what I can see this daily group are just being told to go home and if their situation deteriorated they should phone hotline. Shouldn't there be a consistent approach? Is this a consistent approach? You have to be a Liberal politician to argue there is a difference.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> Be surprised, but they are! A lot of snowbirds even a low class, like my mom's senior house Polish grandma ....she is going to FL every winter for many, many years....she doesn't have any home there, and just working as babysitter there... driving alone or with some other guys...


The ones in Mesa and Apache Junction are called trailer trash by the local Americans.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> few days ago it was reported to a parliamentary committee that under the current travel restrictions 270 incoming travellers have tested positive.


 I bet they didn't come from US or UK , but from some shithole


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

zinfit said:


> The ones in Mesa and Apache Junction are called trailer trash by the local Americans.


I have no idea when my mom's neighbor/friend stays every winter for so many years .... but I'm surprised that so many Canadians jealous that she escapes Canada for 6 months in the winter  and in summer she's here , in Milton, taking care of her huge greenhouse and she's 76


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

zinfit said:


> The ones in Mesa and Apache Junction are called trailer trash by the local Americans.


How about Quartsite... guzzled many a brew in Silly Al's lol









My rig is in the background somewhere .


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Are snowbirds really middle class? i Don’t think many middle class folks have homes (and often cars) in foreign countries.


 and how about cottages in Muskoka?! Do you know that now in order to buy more or less normal cottage, you have to pay from 2M and up?! It's 10 times more expensive that small house in FL or big house in TX


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

zinfit said:


> A few days ago it was reported to a parliamentary committee that under the current travel restrictions 270 incoming travellers have tested positive. A lawyer with the Justice Center for Constitutional law says none of these people were vaccinated. The 270 was 1% of the incoming traffic. I see that we have something like 6000 people testing positive on a daily basis . What is happening with these people


Is this true? This is horrifying... where are they going?


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

james4beach said:


> Is this true? This is horrifying... where are they going?


The government officials gave this answer to a parliamentary committee . Under the current rules they say a person who tests positive will be subject to government detention.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

I was checking the ArriveCan site to review the requirements. They have a section saying your privacy. They say they will not gps or tracking software to track your location. Given all the other violations of people's rights under the Charter this seems incredibility stupid. I could give them my cell phone number and basically do what I wanted. This whole process is a gong show par excellence.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

My lawyer friend with the Justice Centre gave me a list ion things that have happened at the Toronto airport hotels. The rooms are dirty and haven't been cleaned. Even bedding has not been changed or made. 2 cases of sexual assault. Situations were travellers received no food for 24 hours. In some cases the door locks have been disabled and security people enter with no notice. In another hotel there was no security and the people being detained would meet in the morning in the breakfast room to get breakfast and to socialize..All without any supervision. Is this superior to a home quarantine ? It is clear to me that this process is about punishment and has little to do with public health protection.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

I can see about 300,000 snowbirds actively campaigning against Trudeau in the next election. A high percentage are from Quebec . This is a election gift for the CPC.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

We will never see statistics on how much Covid has been carried by returning snowbirds because Trudeau controls the media and Statscan. We all know the answer intuitively: close to zero. The gulag will continue because of ignorance already demonstrated on this thread.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I don't have an issue with travelers. I have stated my opinion on overreaction with regard to the degree of restrictions already. That said, the concept that Canadians might completely lose their mind, was certainly a risk that every person should have understood before they decided to leave the country.

Now, many have valid reasons to leave. If I had property in another country, I would probably be there ensuring its upkeep as well. But with that said, seeing the situation unfold, as could easily have been predicted in advance, I would have taken it as just another risk, that I would have needed to plan to deal with, if it arose...and it did.

Wrongly, the majority of Canadians are blaming all traveler's for the variants coming to Canada. They are wrong. Those viruses would have made it to our shores one way or the other. But again, with that said, until the threat of these variants are eliminated, this environment will not change. The threat of these variants can only be eliminated with vaccine. There is no other solution. So until Canada is vaccinated to a level of at least 50% to 60% of its population, I doubt there will be much movement in removing any travel restrictions.

Right or wrong, it is what it is. The risks in a pandemic come from BOTH the virus and the various reactions of the people dealing with it. Both can be very dangerous and both are very difficult to control. To evaluate one risk without evaluating the other, is simply a mistake made.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Is there ever a better time to travel than during a global pandemic ?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If the snowbirds find the accommodations not up their standards, they should send a sternly worded letter to the CEO of the hotel, so that action can immediately be taken to rectify the situation.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

OptsyEagle said:


> I don't have an issue with travelers. I have stated my opinion on overreaction with regard to the degree of restrictions already. That said, the concept that Canadians might completely lose their mind, was certainly a risk that every person should have understood before they decided to leave the country.
> 
> Now, many have valid reasons to leave. If I had property in another country, I would probably be there ensuring its upkeep as well. But with that said, seeing the situation unfold, as could easily have been predicted in advance, I would have taken it as just another risk, that I would have needed to plan to deal with, if it arose...and it did.
> 
> ...


I agree polling is with the government .They aren't interested in the facts like an extremely low risk with fully vaccinated people. The Liberals know it is good politics. My biggest fear is that the banker mentality will carry on beyond full vaccinations. The fear mongers won't want any relaxation until there are zero cases. Even if it reaches a stage were it isn't among the top hundred health risks. Clearly with these restrictions over the past 2 and 1/2 months travellers have had a negligible impact on the 6000 plus Canadians testing on a daily basis. Sure there is a chance a variant can come with a traveller but the experts say that the mutations of the virus will happen travel or no travel. Clearly this current wave hasn't much of a connection to travel. Especially with snowbirds who are fully vaccinated.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

The problem is that I have noticed that when people suffer they seem to get some form of relief if they can find someone else to point their fingers at to blame. Whether that person or those persons are truly to blame does not seem to be all that important to them. It seems to be an instinctive thing. Another human characteristic and not one of the better ones.

All I can say to travelers is that it could have been a lot worse. If one of these variants had of started killing very young Canadian children, in very large numbers, for example, I would bet none of you would even want to come back to this country. The outrage and blame would have been quite difficult to bear. The term sociopath would have obtained a whole new Canadian name. A person with that type of mental illness would now been referred to as simply a snowbird. That is how bad things can get when fears and irrational anger take hold of people. That is a pandemic.

That is how bad things could have got. It does not make it right. It just is.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The virus arrived in Canada.......and in our city, from foreign travelers.

To presume that somehow that danger no longer exists is a somewhat dubious presumption.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We know that fully vaccinated people can still get infected and spread the virus, so the vaccines have for the most part only changed the degree of illness suffered by those who are vaccinated.

It doesn't protect other people who are not vaccinated and come into contact with them.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Interesting read from a Canadian psychologist .









The Parasitic Mind: How Infectious Ideas Are Killing Common Sense: Saad, Gad: 9781621579595: Books - Amazon


The Parasitic Mind: How Infectious Ideas Are Killing Common Sense: Saad, Gad: 9781621579595: Books - Amazon



www.amazon.com





Once these mind viruses take hold of one’s neuronal circuitry, the afflicted victim loses the ability to use reason, logic, and science to navigate the world. Instead, one sinks into an abyss of infinite lunacy best defined by a dogged and proud departure from reality, common sense, and truth.









The "Mind Viruses" Creating Social Justice Warriors | David Gordon


Listen to the Audio Mises Wire version of this article. The Parasitic Mind: How Infectious Ideas Are Killing Common Senseby Gad Saad.




mises.org


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Eder said:


> Interesting read from a Canadian psychologist .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you think only the left are susceptible, maybe you have a 'mind virus' of your own.

I've followed Gad Saad for years. I don't think this is a particularly novel idea, I'd say it was originally popularized by Richard Dawkins. I became aware of Gad Saad because of his opposition to anti-free speech protests on university campuses disrupting and otherwise trying to deplatform speakers with whom they disagree.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I definitely think it affects left & right leaning followers...peer pressure is rampant.
Gad Saad is not alone or unique other than he is a Canadian like Peterson...I enjoy them both.

He does a good job explaining opinions in this thread.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eder said:


> Once these mind viruses take hold of one’s neuronal circuitry, the afflicted victim loses the ability to use reason, logic, and science to navigate the world. Instead, one sinks into an abyss of infinite lunacy best defined by a dogged and proud departure from reality, common sense, and truth.


This has been a horrible problem among the right wing in the last few years, especially with Trump & the alt-right encouraging loony thinking (and Trump being the poster child for it).

Facebook in particular is responsible for spreading a huge amount of disinformation, conspiracy theories, and providing a dangerous echo chamber for right wing people.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

*internment camps is just a beginning.... soon everyone who doesn't share Liberal "values" can spend their time in "mental hospital" - Canada is becoming new Soviet Union*


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> We know that fully vaccinated people can still get infected and spread the virus, so the vaccines have for the most part only changed the degree of illness suffered by those who are vaccinated.
> 
> It doesn't protect other people who are not vaccinated and come into contact with them.


No vaccine give you 100% safety, inferior AZ that Canada trying to inject to their people (as they got this garbage 1.5 from US) is about 70% efficency... so even if everyone gets vaccine "people can still get infected and spread the virus", so you suggest that Trudeau-hotel-internment camps should exist for good?! Welcome Liberal dictatorship!


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> If the snowbirds find the accommodations not up their standards, they should send a sternly worded letter to the CEO of the hotel, so that action can immediately be taken to rectify the situation.


Not sure of your point. Is the Trudeau government not responsible for the hotel detentions?


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> No vaccine give you 100% safety, inferior AZ that Canada trying to inject to their people (as they got this garbage 1.5 from US) is about 70% efficency... so even if everyone gets vaccine "people can still get infected and spread the virus", so you suggest that Trudeau-hotel-internment camps should exist for good?! Welcome Liberal dictatorship!


The Israeli/Pfiser data coming from millions of vaccinations is saying that transmission is reduced by 97%. Essentially the possibility of being asymptotic after vaccination is almost impossible. They have thousands upon thousands of PCR tests to prove their point. The CDC on the relevant data says vaccinated people do not need to be quarantined even if they have been in contact with covid infected people. Why don't people want to accept this good news and continue to repeat the false information about fully vaccinated people being a source for spreading covid. It is simply wrong and very misleading to repeat that nonsense.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

here is the study


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> *internment camps is just a beginning.... soon everyone who doesn't share Liberal "values" can spend their time in "mental hospital" - Canada is becoming new Soviet Union*


Or like Gaza, right gibor!?


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## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

zinfit said:


> Not sure of your point. Is the Trudeau government not responsible for the hotel detentions?


The traveler picks the hotel. In Calgary, prices range from $800 to $1,300 for one person.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Numbersman61 said:


> The traveler picks the hotel. In Calgary, prices range from $800 to $1,300 for one person.


Some travel insurance policies also cover this cost.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_"Canada — the land mass directly to our north and our single largest trading partner, with whom we share the longest international border in the world — took a dramatic move toward legitimately dangerous authoritarianism. "

On Monday, the country’s prime minister, Justin Trudeau, outlined his government’s new corona regulations. Canadians hoping to return to their country must be tested before and after takeoff, he said, adding: "If your test results come back positive, you’ll need to immediately quarantine in designated government facilities. This is not optional."

"Designated government facilities." When this happens in other countries, and it does, we call those internment camps. Because this is Canada we’re talking about, a place we assume is passive and polite and Anglo to the point of parody, no one thinks to use that term. _


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_Suddenly, Canada is a flagrant violator of the most basic human rights. Fail a COVID test and they’ll lock you up without trial. Go ahead and try to disobey. According to the Canadian government, anyone who attempts to avoid detention in a government internment facility could face a million-dollar fine and three years in prison. 

*This is Justin Trudeau’s Canada. It’s funny, Trudeau always seemed like a cheerful idiot, wearing weird costumes and yammering on about diversity. Who knew he was Mussolini?*_


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Or like Gaza, right gibor!?


*By 22 September 2005, Israel's withdrawal from the entire Gaza Strip to the 1967 Green Line*, and the eviction of the four settlements in Samaria, was completed. In June 2007 Hamas took over the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority. Don't care what "camps" Hamas setting up ... But it's nice that you compare Liberals with Hamas! Way to go!


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Not trolling here........If a majority of the population agrees with a policy, then is it always right to enact that policy?


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Money172375 said:


> Not trolling here........If a majority of the population agrees with a policy, then is it always right to enact that policy?


The German people in the 1930s were very supportive of Hitler's policies. I thought this government said they would decide policy based on the science. May-be we have a avenue for big reforms.. Abolish Parliament and make our decisions based on direct democracy. You might like that system its not my cup of tea. I recall a quote from Churchill it said some thing like this" the most damning argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter" I wish PSA would be transparent with their testing on travellers. They should be able to provide the following on a weekly and gross basis 1. the number of snowbirds who entered Canada, the number that tested positive, the number who were vaccinated and the number of vaccinated people who tested positive. I am convinced that the government doesn't want to reveal this information as they would find it embarrassing. If the main objective is punishment for breaking a non-existent law just say.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> Not trolling here........If a majority of the population agrees with a policy, then is it always right to enact that policy?


I read somewhere that "democracy is not to do what majority wants, but to give equal rights to minorities" or it's going to be The *tyranny of the majority* ) is an inherent weakness to majority rule in which the majority of an electorate pursues exclusively its own objectives at the expense of those of the minority factions.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Money172375 said:


> Not trolling here........If a majority of the population agrees with a policy, then is it always right to enact that policy?


No, democracy is not a matter of two wolves and a sheep voting on what is for dinner.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> _"Canada — the land mass directly to our north and our single largest trading partner, with whom we share the longest international border in the world — took a dramatic move toward legitimately dangerous authoritarianism. "
> 
> On Monday, the country’s prime minister, Justin Trudeau, outlined his government’s new corona regulations. Canadians hoping to return to their country must be tested before and after takeoff, he said, adding: "If your test results come back positive, you’ll need to immediately quarantine in designated government facilities. This is not optional."
> 
> "Designated government facilities." When this happens in other countries, and it does, we call those internment camps. Because this is Canada we’re talking about, a place we assume is passive and polite and Anglo to the point of parody, no one thinks to use that term. _


People will write books about the evils of the great Canadian Covid Internment Camps of 2021. Family members kept from other family members for literally dozens of hours, confined to a room with two queen beds, a TV and room service. 

Go ahead and eat this crap up gibor. I'm sure you think it is just as bad as the Nazi ghettos during WW2.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Benny was a smart dude...we need people like him today.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> People will write books about the evils of the great Canadian Covid Internment Camps of 2021. Family members kept from other family members for literally dozens of hours, confined to a room with two queen beds, a TV and room service.
> 
> Go ahead and eat this crap up gibor. I'm sure you think it is just as bad as the Nazi ghettos during WW2.


Please don't insert words into my mouth ! I've never compared Canadian Internment Camps to Nazi ghettos during WW2. But Internment Camps are Internment Camps and it's " legitimately dangerous authoritarianism "


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I agree that requiring Canadians to pay money & be detained for days against their will should incur repercussions, hopefully mini Mussolini will end up having to resign or at least send more CERB to basement dwelling voters.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Can we agree that restrictions should be based on the science. If so what is the purpose of a hotel detention for a fully vaccinated person? oh by the way what is the government doing with the 6000 plus who test positive on daily basis? are they put into giovernment detention centres?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> Can we agree that restrictions should be based on the science. If so what is the purpose of a hotel detention for a fully vaccinated person? oh by the way what is the government doing with the 6000 plus who test positive on daily basis? are they put into giovernment detention centres?


yes it should be based on science, but since Trudeau hasn't done that from the beginning, why would he start now?

We implemented a mandatory quarantine for travellers, they don't like it, they can wait. 
They had more than enough time to return earlier.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> Can we agree that restrictions should be based on the science. If so what is the purpose of a hotel detention for a fully vaccinated person? oh by the way what is the government doing with the 6000 plus who test positive on daily basis? are they put into giovernment detention centres?


Can we agree that anyone caught falsifying vaccination records should be charged with fraud, and prosecuted to the full extent of the law? And anyone breaking quarantine as per the quarantine act be punished harshly, in accordance with the risk to which they are putting the community?


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Does Fox also think that New Zealand and Australia are dangerous authoritarians for running their quarantine hotels?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Everyone can see youtube videos about mess happening in "quarantine hotels ".... there are much more chances of spreading virus there


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Can we agree that anyone caught falsifying vaccination records should be charged with fraud, and prosecuted to the full extent of the law? And anyone breaking quarantine as per the quarantine act be punished harshly, in accordance with the risk to which they are putting the community?


Those actually finished their vaccine should have no reason to quarantine. I agree about the records thing...I'll be laminating my CDC card as in America passport ID's won't fly....look at their reaction to requiring ID to vote lol.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

A buddy of mine (Special forces) recently went to Australia to do some consulting with their military...he said he was in a motel for 2 weeks living on cheese sandwiches...when finally let out he got to work only 8 days when all of Queensland was locked down again for only 4 Covid cases. He flew home at that point.

I think Australia will have lock downs forever. Maybe some Canadians want to live that way...


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

andrewf said:


> Can we agree that anyone caught falsifying vaccination records should be charged with fraud, and prosecuted to the full extent of the law? And anyone breaking quarantine as per the quarantine act be punished harshly, in accordance with the risk to which they are putting the community?


That is the law.I guess repeating that fact helps.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> That is the law.I guess repeating that fact helps.


Many people here wailing about the government executing their powers under the quarantine act.

Law and its enforcement are separate things. Canada has in many ways been too lax in enforcing the law and leaving loopholes for some to exploit. See Eder's comment about the border being open. This is basically true. The government was asking people not to travel. Many people did anyway. Then people start moaning about the government adding friction to the process because they didn't go along with the government's request to minimize travel.

We have an infection budget (amount of exposure that can be supported while keeping infection rate stable/declining) that we can spend in different ways. One way is to keep travel unrestricted and convenient. One way we can spend it is being able to keep kids in school. Or have patios open (with associated intoxication and indoor exposure using the facilities). Or keep essential workplaces like factories and warehouses operating at capacity. If we spend in one area, we have to cut back in others or we blow out our ICU capacity and people start dying.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> The government was asking people not to travel. Many people did anyway


 and first of all , the top government officials were travelling ...  Hypocrisy!!!
A list of politicians who travelled abroad despite pandemic-era advice to stay home 
and how many travelled , but didn't get caught?!


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

It is about logical balance. The government imposes restrictions. If they are effective, the electors support them. If they prove totally ineffective, a knowledgeable electorate will,punish them. What the snowbird ban is proving is that the electorate are ignorant sheep.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

kcowan said:


> It is about logical balance. The government imposes restrictions. If they are effective, the electors support them. If they prove totally ineffective, a knowledgeable electorate will,punish them. What the snowbird ban is proving is that the electorate are ignorant sheep.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

The Justice Centre for Constitutional Law reported another crazy border situation. A mother, a grandmother and 4 young children returned to Canada by land. They encountered some vehicle problems so upon their arrival their test results were 2 hours outside the 72 hour requirement. The agents told them they had zero tolerance for non-compliance and placed them in detention and gave them tickets for $18,000. Fortunately the crown attorney dropped the charges at the steps to the court. In some ways I wish it had went before a judge .A judge with some sense of justice and common sense would have made the governments actions extremely painful for the government. This whole process has become a ridiculous gong show. If the public supports this sort of crap I fear for the future of this country.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

andrewf said:


> Many people here wailing about the government executing their powers under the quarantine act.
> 
> Law and its enforcement are separate things. Canada has in many ways been too lax in enforcing the law and leaving loopholes for some to exploit. See Eder's comment about the border being open. This is basically true. The government was asking people not to travel. Many people did anyway. Then people start moaning about the government adding friction to the process because they didn't go along with the government's request to minimize travel.
> 
> We have an infection budget (amount of exposure that can be supported while keeping infection rate stable/declining) that we can spend in different ways. One way is to keep travel unrestricted and convenient. One way we can spend it is being able to keep kids in school. Or have patios open (with associated intoxication and indoor exposure using the facilities). Or keep essential workplaces like factories and warehouses operating at capacity. If we spend in one area, we have to cut back in others or we blow out our ICU capacity and people start dying.


depending on which section he was is charged under the Criminal Code contemplates jail up to a maximum of 10 or 14 years. So forging or using fake documents is not considered a minor offence. I am no fan of Trudeau's generous views on sentencing but there is little that I can do about that. It was basically the wise people in Ontario, Atlantic Canada and Quebec who gave this guy the keys to power.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> and first of all , the top government officials were travelling ...  Hypocrisy!!!
> A list of politicians who travelled abroad despite pandemic-era advice to stay home
> and how many travelled , but didn't get caught?!


Orwell had a term for this he called it "doublespeak" . For Orwell it meant a government taking two totally opposite positions at the same time and making the people believe both were the truth.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

zinfit said:


> Orwell had a term for this he called it "doublespeak" . For Orwell it meant a government taking two totally opposite positions at the same time and making the people believe both were the truth.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Had a session with a Texas medical doctor specialists today. He asked when I was heading home and I told him my plans[ land crossings]. He asked me why I wasn't flying and I described the current situation. He didn't say a word and his face and expressions came across clearly he couldn't understand why fully vaccinated people were being subject to such treatment. His head was going back and forth from one side to another. I am sure Trudeau's quarantine policies for vaccinated travellers will win him the Nobel Prize in medicine for 2021. I do say it is easy to spot the Liberal diehearts on this forum . They spin themselves crazy trying to defend the in defensible.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

zinfit said:


> Had a session with a Texas medical doctor specialists today. He asked when I was heading home and I told him my plans[ land crossings]. He asked me why I wasn't flying and I described the current situation. He didn't say a word and his face and expressions came across clearly he couldn't understand why fully vaccinated people were being subject to such treatment. His head was going back and forth from one side to another. I am sure Trudeau's quarantine policies for vaccinated travellers will win him the Nobel Prize in medicine for 2021. I do say it is easy to spot the Liberal diehearts on this forum . They spin themselves crazy trying to defend the in defensible.


I can see I made another major violation I have decided to avoid the long waits with our beloved healthcare system and I am buying medical services in the hell hole named Texas. I like irritating Liberals while I drink a really good wine that costs 1/2 the price of the same product in our beloved nation of Canada. I wonder when it was the last time that a big shot Liberal travelled to the USA for health care?


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

deleted


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Not really an issue for me. We are crossing the border in the vehicle of friend. We will be doing the 14 lockdown and stay at home thing for 14 days and that looks like that is what most Canadians will be doing. Only difference I will be a lot more protected than almost every Canadian with my double dose of Moderna.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

zinfit said:


> Not really an issue for me. We are crossing the border in the vehicle of friend. We will be doing the 14 lockdown and stay at home thing for 14 days and that looks like that is what most Canadians will be doing. Only difference I will be a lot more protected than almost every Canadian with my double dose of Moderna.


 I don't know of one Texan snowbird who has flown into Canada . Some have used their beater car to drive home or have flown to a US border town and arranged a land border crossing. I have snowbird friends in Arizona and they paint the same picture. If the object of the hotel detentions was to punish Canadian snowbirds the plan has failed miserably.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> I don't know of one Texan snowbird who has flown into Canada . Some have used their beater car to drive home or have flown to a US border town and arranged a land border crossing. I have snowbird friends in Arizona and they paint the same picture. If the object of the hotel detentions was to punish Canadian snowbirds the plan has failed miserably.


Because Trudeau never wanted to actually close the border, but he had to at least pretend to do something.
So he put forth an obnoxious broken policy so he can say he did something, but really accomplish nothing.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Will be returning to Canada shortly . Now it is the USA issuing high level warnings about travel to Canada. I am leaving Texas which has a daily covid test count of about 2480 per day and declining and I am going to Canada were the daily case count is going up and has been as high as 9800 cases per day. I will be returning being much better protected against covid then almost every other Canadian in my age group. There are thousands of free testing locations in Texas. You just go on line and pick your time for testing. I will be getting a PCR test on the morning when we begin out trip back to Canada.Because of Trudeau's restrictions my plan on returning to Canada has changed and my cost to back home will be much less ten I expected in the fall. So much for the boy king's advice on public health.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

zinfit said:


> Will be returning to Canada shortly . Now it is the USA issuing high level warnings about travel to Canada. I am leaving Texas which has a daily covid test count of about 2480 per day and declining and I am going to Canada were the daily case count is going up and has been as high as 9800 cases per day. I will be returning being much better protected against covid then almost every other Canadian in my age group. There are thousands of free testing locations in Texas. You just go on line and pick your time for testing. I will be getting a PCR test on the morning when we begin out trip back to Canada.Because of Trudeau's restrictions my plan on returning to Canada has changed and my cost to back home will be much less ten I expected in the fall. So much for the boy king's advice on public health.


should mention the PCR test just like the vaccination was free of charge.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Some statistics as of this morning:

35-36% of Americans have had at least one dose.
19-20% of Canadians have had at least one dose.
Active new case rate per 100k population is almost exactly the same in both countries, albeit USA rate is now declining... for the moment, while the Canadian rate is climbing.....for now.


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## nortel'd (Mar 20, 2012)

zinfit said:


> Will be returning to Canada shortly . Now it is the USA issuing high level warnings about travel to Canada. I am leaving Texas which has a daily covid test count of about 2480 per day and declining and I am going to Canada were the daily case count is going up and has been as high as 9800 cases per day. I will be returning being much better protected against covid then almost every other Canadian in my age group. There are thousands of free testing locations in Texas. You just go on line and pick your time for testing. I will be getting a PCR test on the morning when we begin out trip back to Canada.Because of Trudeau's restrictions my plan on returning to Canada has changed and my cost to back home will be much less ten I expected in the fall. So much for the boy king's advice on public health.


My twin sister and her husband spent from the end of November until April 04 at their McAllen, Texas winter residence. 
They returned to their Canadian home on April 09 with 14 days of supplies, safe, sound, and fully vaccinated with Moderna to help protect themselves against Covid-19.
I am attaching part of my sister's email she sent to all her family and friends to announce their return to Canada...(I have edited some names and times.).

_"We got our PCR tests done at Walgreens drug store in Westerville, Ohio - no cost. Results came via email in a timely fashion. HUBBY received his results in 30 hours, mine came after 48 hours. I can not explain the difference in the arrival of the test results but I got to worry for an additional 18 hours.
The trip from Westerville Ohio to our home in SOUTH EASTERN, Ontario, Canada was without mechanical incident- thanks be to God! Except we had to cross the Canada/USA border.
We crossed at the Peace Bridge at late afternoon on April 9, 2021. The border crossing had two lanes open for cars and three cars in the lineup. The official at our booth took our passports and asked where we had been and why so HUBBY told him we are residents of Texas and have a winter home in Texas and we spend our winters in Texas. Then he asked why we were crossing into Canada and we told him we are Canadian citizens and have a home in  SOUTH EASTERN and we are going there.
We showed him our negative Covid-19 test results and he asked what kind of test it was - PCR test and then he asked where it was taken so I said Walgreens. Maybe he was asking for a city or town???
He then asked if we filled in the ArriveCanada App for returning travelers and I said no - we could not make it work, and it was my understanding that we could make a verbal declaration. So he said "Ok - then I have to cite you for non-compliance regarding the quarantine, isolation and other obligations order" At that point he read us the citation and had us make the following verbal declaration - " We acknowledge that we must quarantine for the next 14 days to prevent the potential spread of Covid-19."

He asked what we had on board - 14 days worth of food, 5 liters of wine - for friends and family and some trinkets.
He then provided us with 4 PCR test kits and sent us to some Red Cross workers further up the row to help us take the first Covid-19 test, collect the results and give us instructions for the test we have to send in on day 10 of quarantine. It all took 10 to 15 minutes and then we were on our way. No cost, no fuss, no muss, no bother.

Except no one mentioned your obligation to call a Public Health Agency of Canada toll-free number and submit the required information every day for the next 14 days. Or that you will be visited by a screening officer or a law enforcement officer to verify your compliance during your 14 day quarantine. Damn that means we have to put clothes on and comb our hair!

And so begins the next 14 days of quarantine."_


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> Some statistics as of this morning:
> 
> 35-36% of Americans have had at least one dose.
> 19-20% of Canadians have had at least one dose.
> Active new case rate per 100k population is almost exactly the same in both countries, albeit USA rate is now declining... for the moment, while the Canadian rate is climbing.....for now.


Care to back up that claim with a source?

According to the government of Canada we're well behind those numbers.





__





COVID-19 vaccination coverage in Canada - Canada.ca


COVID-19 vaccination coverage across Canada by demographics and key populations. Updated every Friday at 12:00 PM Eastern Time.




health-infobase.canada.ca


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Covid Tracker says *7,198,857* Canadians have received at least one dose of an approved COVID-19 vaccine which is about 19% of 37 million Canadians (18.94% if you want 2 decimal points). 

Daily new cases per million shows Canada at 207.3 and USA at 206.7. It appears Canada crossed with USA on Apr 9th

I have no skin in this game (beauty contest) either way.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

AltaRed said:


> Some statistics as of this morning:
> 
> 35-36% of Americans have had at least one dose.
> 19-20% of Canadians have had at least one dose.
> Active new case rate per 100k population is almost exactly the same in both countries, albeit USA rate is now declining... for the moment, while the Canadian rate is climbing.....for now.


the daily case count in Texas is under 2500 and trending lower. The Canadian daily case count looks like 8000 to 10,000 and climbing.Without checking I believe the Texas population is about 30 million and the Canadian population is around 38 million. The Canadian trend is going up. According to Dr Scott Gotlieg the USA vaccination rate is 4 million per day and will soon hit 5 million. The JNJ vaccine in now fully in the system and they believe then can provide 100 million doses before June 1. All people over 16 who want to be fully vaccinated will be complete by June 1.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Comparing one state to all of Canada is data mining to make a point because it is apples and oranges. Comparing nation totals on a per capita basis is the real measure.

I agree the Canadian trend is going up faster than the USA trend is. Canadian rates of new cases per day per million people is now slightly higher than that of the USA per my prior post. We all know Canada's vaccination rate was far too slow out of the gate for a number of both valid and incompetent reasons, all well articulated by many. They are paying the price now with an explosion of new variant infections. The USA overall is also seeing an increase but not by much. Some states are doing well while others like Michigan are doing horribly. Variations just like the 13 or so jurisdictions in Canada.

The good news is Canada's vaccination rate has really started to motor along. The G&M today reported we have moved up to 27th among 84 countries in our inoculation rate with a population over 1 million. That is a significant improvement from about 40th less than a month ago but still, I believe, 6th among the G7. We have a ways to go. Dispensing through pharmacies as well as vast vaccination centers is helping. Supposedly, anyone who wants a vaccination will be able to have one by June 30th, although I doubt they will meet that target.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

AltaRed said:


> Comparing one state to all of Canada is data mining to make a point because it is apples and oranges. Comparing nation totals on a per capita basis is the real measure.
> 
> I agree the Canadian trend is going up faster than the USA trend is. Canadian rates of new cases per day per million people is now slightly higher than that of the USA per my prior post. We all know Canada's vaccination rate was far too slow out of the gate for a number of both valid and incompetent reasons, all well articulated by many. They are paying the price now with an explosion of new variant infections. The USA overall is also seeing an increase but not by much. Some states are doing well while others like Michigan are doing horribly. Variations just like the 13 or so jurisdictions in Canada.
> 
> The good news is Canada's vaccination rate has really started to motor along. The G&M today reported we have moved up to 27th among 84 countries in our inoculation rate with a population over 1 million. That is a significant improvement from about 40th less than a month ago but still, I believe, 6th among the G7. We have a ways to go. Dispensing through pharmacies as well as vast vaccination centers is helping. Supposedly, anyone who wants a vaccination will be able to have one by June 30th, although I doubt they will meet that target.


nonsense. Comparing a large country with a 330 million population to a country with 38 million with most of them living stretched along a 3000 mile border makes little or no sense. Not long ago when Texas had a terrible record it was the poster child for Canadians doing comparisons. When the numbers drastically change it becomes data mining. The USA and Canada are very different countries . First the climates are significantly different. Te US has a very large African population , a giant sized Hispanic population and large population of illegal immigrants.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> nonsense. Comparing a large country with a 330 million population to a country with 38 million with most of them living stretched along a 3000 mile border makes little or no sense. Not long ago when Texas had a terrible record it was the poster child for Canadians doing comparisons. When the numbers drastically change it becomes data mining. The USA and Canada are very different countries . First the climates are significantly different. Te US has a very large African population , a giant sized Hispanic population and large population of illegal immigrants.


These comparisons are misleading because we are at different places in the COVID waves. Canada is going to be peaking in most regions soon, Texas is in a lull. Call me when the body count is even half that in the US and talk to me about competence.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

andrewf said:


> These comparisons are misleading because we are at different places in the COVID waves. Canada is going to be peaking in most regions soon, Texas is in a lull. Call me when the body count is even half that in the US and talk to me about competence.


And I don’t think the variants have really taken hold in the US as much as they have here. Some states are starting to see the power of the variants....the next few weeks will obviously tell us more....but there are still a lot of people down there without vaccines.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

andrewf said:


> These comparisons are misleading because we are at different places in the COVID waves. Canada is going to be peaking in most regions soon, Texas is in a lull. Call me when the body count is even half that in the US and talk to me about competence.


Will you be getting a Canadian developed and manufactured vaccine or vaccines developed and manufactured by American corporations like Pfizer, JNJ or Moderna.? I forgot the non-American participant in " Operation Warp Speed" Astrazenenca. For Liberals you have to exclude vaccines from the conversation when we are talking about Liberal competency.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Money172375 said:


> And I don’t think the variants have really taken hold in the US as much as they have here. Some states are starting to see the power of the variants....the next few weeks will obviously tell us more....but there are still a lot of people down there without vaccines.


Michigan is a case in point, maybe better compared to Ontario across the river. The comparisons are silly at the best of times....except when one really wants to data mine to be partisan about it.

We are bumbling along and Canada is maybe a month behind the 8 ball and is paying the consequences right now because of it, but this too will pass. The conversation will likely be quite different come early/mid May when we get a much higher vaccination rate. I also suspect by the Fall, Canada will be in a better place than the USA for ideological reasons. There are estimates that upwards of 30% of Americans will never get vaccinated, much of it for ideological reasons, not cultural nor race reasons. Maybe Canada will be similar but I suspect the percentage who don't vaccinate will be smaller.

Much of this 'point in time' commentary seems to be a waste of time. It is time to start enjoying the good weather, getting outdoors, and continuing to be disciplined about the protocols.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> Michigan is a case in point, maybe better compared to Ontario across the river. The comparisons are silly at the best of times....except when one really wants to data mine to be partisan about it.


I worked very closely with the Michigan office with my former employer.

Culturally they are both very similar, and shockingly different to Ontarians. 
I find they're a bit more "extreme" in their attitudes, Ontarians are more mellow/middle of the road.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> I worked very closely with the Michigan office with my former employer.
> 
> Culturally they are both very similar, and shockingly different to Ontarians.
> I find they're a bit more "extreme" in their attitudes, Ontarians are more mellow/middle of the road.


Fair enough. It has been over 30 years since I've spent time in Michigan which I thought had more cultural similarities to ON...as compared to Wisconsin for example. 

I think the key point is to avoid data mining/cherry picking to support arguments. This whole pandemic thing is an amoeba that has shown itself over the past year to morph every month or so.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

AltaRed said:


> Comparing one state to all of Canada is data mining to make a point because it is apples and oranges. Comparing nation totals on a per capita basis is the real measure.
> 
> I agree the Canadian trend is going up faster than the USA trend is. Canadian rates of new cases per day per million people is now slightly higher than that of the USA per my prior post. We all know Canada's vaccination rate was far too slow out of the gate for a number of both valid and incompetent reasons, all well articulated by many. They are paying the price now with an explosion of new variant infections. The USA overall is also seeing an increase but not by much. Some states are doing well while others like Michigan are doing horribly. Variations just like the 13 or so jurisdictions in Canada.
> 
> The good news is Canada's vaccination rate has really started to motor along. The G&M today reported we have moved up to 27th among 84 countries in our inoculation rate with a population over 1 million. That is a significant improvement from about 40th less than a month ago but still, I believe, 6th among the G7. We have a ways to go. Dispensing through pharmacies as well as vast vaccination centers is helping. Supposedly, anyone who wants a vaccination will be able to have one by June 30th, although I doubt they will meet that target.


Data mining? in my case. I spend 5 months in Texas and 7 in Canada so the comparison is far more revenant then a comparison with the entire US.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Hotel detentions continue to be prudent, since as we learn more about variants & vaccines, it looks like a vaccinated person is not totally out of the woods. They might still get sick, and they might transmit the virus.

I want to see quarantines and detentions stepped up. It's good that we're locking people in hotels already, but we also need to start limiting inter provincial travel.

Australia aggressively limited travel between states, to limit the scope of outbreaks. Canada made a huge mistake by not doing the same.

We have to prevent inter provincial travel or step up quarantining, meaning we don't just TRUST people to stay home and isolate. We already know people don't.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Hotel detentions continue to be prudent, since as we learn more about variants & vaccines, it looks like a vaccinated person is not totally out of the woods. They might still get sick, and they might transmit the virus.
> 
> I want to see quarantines and detentions stepped up. It's good that we're locking people in hotels already, but we also need to start limiting inter provincial travel.
> 
> ...


Do you believebthatbvaccinatedbpeople should be treated exactly the sambas unvaccinated?


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

james4beach said:


> Hotel detentions continue to be prudent, since as we learn more about variants & vaccines, it looks like a vaccinated person is not totally out of the woods. They might still get sick, and they might transmit the virus.
> 
> I want to see quarantines and detentions stepped up. It's good that we're locking people in hotels already, but we also need to start limiting inter provincial travel.
> 
> ...





kcowan said:


> Do you believebthatbvaccinatedbpeople should be treated exactly the sambas unvaccinated?


Australia and Israel have basically banned all incoming travel and have done so for many, many months . Recently based on the data and the science they have lifted the band for people who have been vaccinated. I think Trudeau would do better on banning all incoming travel from Brazil and India and including any citizens from those countries. Vaccinated snowbirds are not the problem.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I want to see quarantines and detentions stepped up. It's good that we're locking people in hotels already, but we also need to start limiting inter provincial travel.
> 
> Australia aggressively limited travel between states, to limit the scope of outbreaks. Canada made a huge mistake by not doing the same.


Ontario just started doing this. Only "essential" travel across provincial borders is allowed now. However, they haven't restricted air travel, so I don't really see the point.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Spudd said:


> Ontario just started doing this. Only "essential" travel across provincial borders is allowed now. However, they haven't restricted air travel, so I don't really see the point.


They can't restrict air travel, that's federal jurisdiction.

The incompetence at the federal level is astonishing. Though the AG released a scathing report on Dr Tams incompetence, and she's still in charge.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Spudd said:


> Ontario just started doing this. Only "essential" travel across provincial borders is allowed now. However, they haven't restricted air travel, so I don't really see the point.


Yeah, this is the kind of half-a**sed measure Ford is always doing.

He makes a big show of it (saying he'll restrict inter provincial travel) and then leaves giant gaps in the policy. Like flying! Or he says there will be a shutdown in businesses, but then leaves all kinds of non essential businesses open. And covid spreads like wildfire in workplaces.

And puts out extremely confusing rules and guidelines that nobody can really follow.

Ford's government has been an absolute disaster here. Incompetent and dangerous.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Creating a police state is hardly how to control Covid or most Canadians for that matter.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Yeah, this is the kind of half-a**sed measure Ford is always doing.
> 
> He makes a big show of it (saying he'll restrict inter provincial travel) and then leaves giant gaps in the policy. Like flying! Or he says there will be a shutdown in businesses, but then leaves all kinds of non essential businesses open. And covid spreads like wildfire in workplaces.
> 
> ...


Giant gaps, like air travel that he's legally not allowed to stop.
If you want air travel restricted, like I've been arguing for since March 2020, you need to get Trudeau to take this seriously.
He isn't, heck even after the AG tells him Dr Tam is doing a very bad job, she's still there.

But don't worry, Trudeau will send in the Red Cross to inject the vaccine we don't have.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Eder said:


> Creating a police state is hardly how to control Covid or most Canadians for that matter.


That's something that Ford has said from the beginning, we simply don't have the police, or willingness to become a police state.

When he tried to give the police the authority to randomly stop people, they refused it.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

I just returned to Canada the land of fear and government control. There was 5 snowbirds packed in one vehicle. Three were winter Texans fully vaccinated and the other two were friends who winter in Mexico. They flew to Seattle got a test at the airport and rented a car for travel to Great Falls Montana. The Other three travelled from Texas in a beater and we picked these folks up in Great Falls. They were in their 50 s and while waiting for our arrival got their first dose of the Pfizer vaccine from the CVS pharmacy. We were the only vehicle at the Coutts border crossing . The border agents was terrific. He reviewed our ArriveCa answers. He quizzed me on some of our answers. He asked why I answered certain questions the way I did and I explained that the questions were ambiguous . He agreed with me and we both agree that the questionnaire left a lot to be desired. Anyways he treated each of us in a very respectful way. He did get the vaccination information from each of us. If they have been doing this with the thousands of returning snowbirds they should be able to evaluate how safe and effective the vaccines are. I expect that have had zero cases of covid with the returned snowbirds. The gal doing the PCR test was an amazing gal. Now we must give the government lackeys a daily report. We will expect a visitation or two and numerous phone checks. I intend to have some fun with the phone calls. I only gave them one phone number. A friend who arrived earlier says he gave 2 phone numbers and that was a mistake. In some instances they were getting two phone calls at the same time. Interesting that with the emphasize on security and safety they make it clear that don't track the phones. In other words I could go to a store or visit friends and they wouldn't know it. I said originally that Trudeau's travel restrictions for vaccinated snowbirds was a gong show and was based on politics not science. Other countries are eliminating travel restrictions for vaccinated travellers [Australia, Israel and others] and Trudeau carries ion with the gong show.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Why bother returning to Canada to a gong-show then considering all the hassles you have to go through. Lots of fun and all games, correct?


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

We should expect our government to recognize that vaccinated Canadians are the solution and should not be required to quarantine. Seems our child PM doesn't believe in Vaccines.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Why bother returning to Canada to a gong-show then considering all the hassles you have to go through. Lots of fun and all games, correct?


Health coverage is about the only reason I experienced the gong show. The trip just confirmed how incompetent this government is.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Making it easier for Canadians who travelled during covid is not a good idea politically. Rightly or wrongly, most Canadians want it to be made even more difficult for people to enter Canada......Canadians or anyone else.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

james4beach said:


> Hotel detentions continue to be prudent, since as we learn more about variants & vaccines, it looks like a vaccinated person is not totally out of the woods. They might still get sick, and they might transmit the virus.
> 
> I want to see quarantines and detentions stepped up. It's good that we're locking people in hotels already, but we also need to start limiting inter provincial travel.
> 
> ...


Conspiracy theorists think they can stop a virus by closing down boarders.


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## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

My friend and his wife went Phoenix for their shots. Returned to Calgary and booked into Airport Marriott- total non refundable cost was $2,600 (including $600 food credit). Test results were negative so they could return home after first day to complete quarantine of 14 days. He used up the food credit with takeout.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I think Trudeau is petulant because Canadians went south and got fully vaccinated and he is continuing to act like the child star he is. At a cost to all Canadian taxpayers.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

kcowan said:


> I think Trudeau is petulant because Canadians went south and got fully vaccinated and he is continuing to act like the child star he is. At a cost to all Canadian taxpayers.


Couldn't agree more. The entire Cabinet and Trudeau are acknowledging that they are in active negotiations with the major countries and the EU on adopting a vaccine passport system to free or eliminate travel restrictions for vaccinated travellers.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

We'd like to book vacation in Caribbean... In you opinion when this totalitarian act will be lifted (or it will be for good as a nice source income for Trudeau)?


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

gibor365 said:


> We'd like to book vacation in Caribbean... In you opinion when this totalitarian act will be lifted (or it will be for good as a nice source income for Trudeau)?


They might continue to play games opening & closing boarders to create a market for killer jabs for the drug dealers. Working towards injected micro chips for total control. The weak sheep will hail their Hitler. the strong will not conform & risk death, prison & or fines by the tyrants & the Gestapo

Using history as a guide the same pattern forms over & over.

The leaders hide behind their armies

Some people will try to reason with the dictators & masses to stop the bloodshed ( which almost never works)

If the police & or army continue to go against the people & back the tyrants it will not be resolved without bloodshed of the people.

The army & police might fight each other as one tries to protect the tyrants.

Eventually the corrupt are killed by the masses. Once the masses lose everything they lose it.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

This situation is becoming clearer and clearer . People who have proven full Mrna vaccination should not be facing any restrictions. Yes we can find an anomaly or a freak outlier but the evidence is overwhelming on the level of protection. I have seen reports from strong sources saying 99.5% of the USA covid hospitalizations are with unvaccinated people. The Israel data is showing Mrna vaccines are f very effective in controlling the delta virus. May-be Trudeau is upset because he has the Astrazenca vaccine?


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

zinfit said:


> This situation is becoming clearer and clearer . People who have proven full Mrna vaccination should not be facing any restrictions. Yes we can find an anomaly or a freak outlier but the evidence is overwhelming on the level of protection. I have seen reports from strong sources saying 99.5% of the USA covid hospitalizations are with unvaccinated people. The Israel data is showing Mrna vaccines are f very effective in controlling the delta virus. May-be Trudeau is upset because he has the Astrazenca vaccine?


I'm not sure what you're upset about now, since the hotel quarantine and even the home quarantine have now been lifted for fully vaccinated people. Can you clarify?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Fully vaccinated foreigners are not allowed in.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Spudd said:


> I'm not sure what you're upset about now, since the hotel quarantine and even the home quarantine have now been lifted for fully vaccinated people. Can you clarify?


They still require two PCR tests and a period of home quarantine until the second test turns up negative. Fully vaccinated non-Canadians are still subject to the insane hotel detention regime. At some point people must quit being selfish and appreciate that thousands of Canadians who are dependant on the tourist, hotel and transportation sector have been taking it on the chin for 18 months. Enough is enough


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Foreign travelers are bringing the variants with them. 

A few days or weeks after the variants are discovered in another part of the world they show up in Canada.

Even testing is useless, as travelers test negative before boarding the plane and then test positive when they get here.

Unless we close the borders to foreign travel we need to maintain a quarantine period.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

zinfit said:


> They still require two PCR tests and a period of home quarantine until the second test turns up negative. Fully vaccinated non-Canadians are still subject to the insane hotel detention regime. At some point people must quit being selfish and appreciate that thousands of Canadians who are dependant on the tourist, hotel and transportation sector have been taking it on the chin for 18 months. Enough is enough


There are still 2 tests required, true (one before crossing the border and one upon entry). But you don't have to quarantine at home until the 2nd test returns negative.




__





COVID-19: Travel, testing and borders - Travel.gc.ca


COVID-19 border measures have ended as of October 1, 2022 for all travellers entering or returning to Canada by air, land or sea.




travel.gc.ca





As our vaccination program is still ongoing I don't see a problem with that. Once everyone who wants vaccinations has them, then that would be the time to stop the testing, in my opinion.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Keeping variants out is a pipedream. We can only hope to slow them down, but once our population is substantially vaccinated it's not clear to me that delaying the arrival of variants makes a big difference. Except maybe to buy time to understand if new, truly dangerous (for vaccinated individuals) emerge.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

andrewf said:


> Keeping variants out is a pipedream. We can only hope to slow them down, but once our population is substantially vaccinated it's not clear to me that delaying the arrival of variants makes a big difference. Except maybe to buy time to understand if new, truly dangerous (for vaccinated individuals) emerge.


Agreed. Many of the Asian countries concentrated on keeping variants out. They were partially successful but their problem now is they are away behind on vaccinations and have little or no herd immunity.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

The most recent data for positivity rate on covid testing at land crossings for 2021was .02% . During the last wave the domestic positivity rate on such testing was reaching the 10% range.. The CBA failed to identify and collect data on Canadian snowbirds who were fully vaccinated. I suspect if they had the number of positive tests for that group might be 1 in a 100,000. Talk about using a hydrogen bomb to kill a mouse.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I would love to see the costs of Arrivcan, Switch and Flyclear which we used plus our costs of Antigen and PCR tests in MX and US before crossing. Ridiculous costs for little benefit! And our extra hotel stay.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Covid theatre to appease retards.


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