# Any pilots here or persons with ETOPS knowledge



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

My flying curiosity hit me today. Does this flight from Germany to Canada head north to Iceland and Greenland to maintain contact with possible airports in case of emergency? ETOPS Rule?

Or possibly weather related.

Plane is twin engine.

thanks










Or is it weather related?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Shortest distance between 2 points due to curvature of earth. If you check a FRA to YYC flight, it curves even further north.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> Shortest distance between 2 points due to curvature of earth. If you check a FRA to YYC flight, it curves even further north.


Hmmm….need to understand/visualize this more. Why then, not a more perfect (smoother) arc?


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

This is from another site which shows the route. Not sure if it’s just a representation or the actual “normal” route. I see a smooth equal arc here….but nowhere near Iceland and Greenland as shown above on a live flight.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Money172375 said:


> Hmmm….need to understand/visualize this more. Why then, not a more perfect (smoother) arc?


I should have mentioned there are also other effects. 1. jet stream effects at the different latitudes. 2. The skies are busy. The routes flown are known as OTS (Organized Track Structure I think) where pilots fly 'highways in the sky' to help keep keep planes separated in busy skies not entirely covered by radar. There are probably a few other minor things too. It all means the routes are not always the 'shortest' distance between two points. Sorry for not including that in my prior post.

Added: I've flown Calgary to Europe and/or Vancouver to Europe a number of times. The planes are often well over the Arctic....Arctic Islands even. It does NOT have to do with needing to fly closer to possible landing spots.


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## Flugzeug (Aug 15, 2018)

I’m ETOPS qualified. There are many factors included in a flight plan. Some of them AltaRed has mentioned.

Cost and efficiency, winds and the jet stream (these move North and South depending on the season), weather. Also things like ETOPS. If a certain aircraft system is not operational it could affect ETOPS and change the routing. Also if an ETOPS alternate has poor weather below a certain level making it not suitable to be used as an alternate this could affect the routing as well.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Flugzeug said:


> I’m ETOPS qualified. There are many factors included in a flight plan. Some of them AltaRed has mentioned.
> 
> Cost and efficiency, winds and the jet stream (these move North and South depending on the season), weather. Also things like ETOPS. If a certain aircraft system is not operational it could affect ETOPS and change the routing. Also if an ETOPS alternate has poor weather below a certain level making it not suitable to be used as an alternate this could affect the routing as well.


So in the flight track in post #1……is it routine to fly that far north over Iceland and Greenland, or could that image Be inaccurate?


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## Flugzeug (Aug 15, 2018)

Yes that is quite common. My last two flights to and from Frankfurt crossed over Greenland like the image from post #1. The image from post #4 is just generic.


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

Image 1 is likely quite accurate with regard to Iceland and Greenland. The data that feeds into the tracking in Image 1 is from ground based radios that receive signals from transponders on actual aircraft. You can build/buy a receiver for a surprisingly small amount of money. Hobbyist have done so around the world. They connect them to personal computers that upload continuous feeds that detail all the aircraft overflying them. The companies that operate the website you looked at send kits out to anyone interested that happens to live in an area that's a blank spot in their feeds. Greenland has good coverage, as does Iceland.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Covariance said:


> Image 1 is likely quite accurate with regard to Iceland and Greenland. The data that feeds into the tracking in Image 1 is from ground based radios that receive signals from transponders on actual aircraft. You can build/buy a receiver for a surprisingly small amount of money. Hobbyist have done so around the world. They connect them to personal computers that upload continuous feeds that detail all the aircraft overflying them. The companies that operate the website you looked at send kits out to anyone interested that happens to live in an area that's a blank spot in their feeds. Greenland has good coverage, as does Iceland.


ADS-B receivers have been loaded on Iridium NEXT satellites now. Not sure how many airliners have ADS-B yet though as I'm more involved in space stuff

There wouldn't be any hobby receivers or internet along that flight route.. but those web sites have the flight plan anyways. You can even see most of the military aircraft around Ukraine though as they are not covert and I imagine there are hobby receivers there

The Atlantic routes can be very dynamic. We used to stop in Iceland. I visited Iceland Oceanic and they had some crazy stories from the 2010 volcanic eruption


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

If you have a GPS receiver on your phone you may enjoy playing with that during a flight. I use the "GPS Test" app and also Google Maps.

During the flight, leave Airplane mode on (this keeps mobile transmitters off), but some phones allow you to enable the GPS receiver. If you have a window seat, you can usually get a GPS signal; the GPS Test app helps diagnose this and show the status.

This lets you see ground speed as well, sometimes I've seen *over 900 km/hr* which I think is about the cruising speed of a 777 or 787. But I mean, really think about this. You're in a craft, powered by multiple jet engines, blasting through the atmosphere at 900 KPH. It's mind-blowing.

Also fun to watch the boost in speed when the pilot encounters a bit of weather or something and tries to get past it, or changing altitudes.

The app will also show your altitude and I think it's kind of fun to watch the altitude change during descent.

With Google Maps, you can zoom out on the map of the earth and with GPS, see your current location. I've enjoyed doing this over the Pacific. I'm sure you can see the same things on the seat-back TVs, but I find it pretty amazing to see the same data through GPS directly.


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## YeahYeahYeah (11 mo ago)

Considering that a number of other aircraft are flying a similar route, it’s likely not an ETOPS issue. IRCC, the Atlantic track routes change several times a day to account for atmospheric conditions and traffic congestion mostly.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

YeahYeahYeah said:


> Considering that a number of other aircraft are flying a similar route, it’s likely not an ETOPS issue. IRCC, the Atlantic track routes change several times a day to account for atmospheric conditions and traffic congestion mostly.


Typically taking advantage of jet streams or the rare avoiding things like volcanic ash from iceland


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This may interest people interested in aviation, though I should warn you, the content of this program can also be terrifying if you are afraid of flying.

YouTube: Mayday Air Disaster

These are full episodes of a non-fiction series about air disasters, which goes into detail for the crash investigations. It's made in Canada by Cineflix (Montreal & Toronto) and has received numerous awards. The quality is tremendous. Some of the recreations make my jaw drop.

A few episodes I liked,

Gimli Glider part 1 (the famous 1983 crash near Winnipeg)
Gimli Glider part 2
Engines Stuck on Full Throttle
The Heathrow Enigma part 1
The Heathrow Enigma part 2


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

My wife had a family member who was a flight attendant on the Air Transat flight which ran out of fuel on the way to Europe. Mayday also did an episode. The pilots made an error (can’t remember if it was their decision or an error in the manual). The pilot also had a checkered past, but was hailed a hero. I think the flight stands as a record for the longest un-powered glide in commercial aviation.

great series. I’ve just started watching a Netflix doc on Boeing and it’s 737 Max issues.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Money172375 said:


> great series. I’ve just started watching a Netflix doc on Boeing and it’s 737 Max issues.


They should make a doc about how Boeing gets most of the government money from NASA and yet SpaceX is somehow lightyears ahead at half the cost

Boeing lost its way somewhere. I can only imagine corporate greed



> NASA awarded Boeing a higher-value contract — $4.3 billion compared to SpaceX’s $2.5 billion. Seats on Starliner are also more expensive: A 2019 report from NASA’s Office of Inspector General calculated the estimated average cost per seat to be $90 million for Boeing and $55 million for SpaceX.
> 
> But perhaps the most major difference between the two capsules is that, so far, only Dragon has successfully flown humans and cargo to the ISS. It made its first crewed flight in November.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

m3s said:


> They should make a doc about how Boeing gets most of the government money from NASA and yet SpaceX is somehow lightyears ahead at half the cost
> 
> Boeing lost its way somewhere. I can only imagine corporate greed


The doc on Netflix puts the recent downturn blame on the McDonnel Douglas merger. Feedback from techs on the floor became routinely ignored and share price and shareholder value were at the forefront.


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## YeahYeahYeah (11 mo ago)

What’s the name of the Netflix doc? Asking for an Aviation Porn friend 🙂


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Money172375 said:


> great series. I’ve just started watching a Netflix doc on Boeing and it’s 737 Max issues.


I'd love to watch that. What is the documentary called?


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Downfall The Case Against Boeing. Keep in mind I am inGermany….perhaps the library is different.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I've watched most of the Mayday series, some episodes twice. I find them fascinating. The new Downfall documentary on Boeing is on my list to watch, even as it will likely raise my blood pressure 30 points. Corporate greed and a compromised FAA makes for bad outcomes.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

The curvature of the earth routing seems to be used generally on long hauls, for what I can see. I used to think that, to fly to SE Asia from Vancouver, one would fly south, if anything, maybe passing over Hawaii, for shortest route. Instead, the route goes far north, over the Aleutian Islands are carrying on north, before heading south over parts of Russia, China, Korea, Japan, before getting to SE Asian countries. I only started to catch on when planes started to install those screens on all setbacks which can display route and flight details.

I have also been on flights where to flight crew has announced a course change, saying things such as "The headwinds on our present course really suck. We're going to chuck this flight plan and head north, south (or as the case may be), where rumour has it that there are 150 mph tailwinds and we can save some time and look like studs to our employer by conserving some expensive fuel." Well, I may have taken some liberty with the wording, but such was the gist.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> I've watched most of the Mayday series, some episodes twice. I find them fascinating. The new Downfall documentary on Boeing is on my list to watch, even as it will likely raise my blood pressure 30 points. Corporate greed and a compromised FAA makes for bad outcomes.


Do you recall any that stand out? I've only watched a few from the youtube channel, really loving these.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

james4beach said:


> Do you recall any that stand out? I've only watched a few from the youtube channel, really loving these.


I find that they all stand out. I have watched a number of em'. Can't recall a fave. But, as Alta says, they are fascinating.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I don't have a fav for the same reason Mukhang mentioned. I watched them all originally on Discovery Channel (I think). I will have to backtrack about how many I've seen as I don't think I have seen more than 100 of the 180 episodes so I need to get busy and find more.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

There are some with a Canadian connection. The Air Transat one ran out fuel over the Atlantic. Air Franch which ran off the runway in Toronto. I got stuck in the highway traffic with that one as everyone slowed to see the accident.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I just watched this Mayday episode (on youtube), Air France 296. The brand new A320 was flying over an air show as a promotion for Airbus.

The second video below has original footage of the 1988 crash from a few angles.

Who does air show stunts when fully loaded with passengers??


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Flightradar24 on Twitter: "#LY29 exited Ukraine airspace shortly after entering en route from Tel Aviv to Toronto. https://t.co/HQgDgOIf2s The flight often passes through the far western portion of Ukraine. #LY5 also routing around Ukraine. https://t.co/QYLuNPe16m" / Twitter


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> I don't have a fav for the same reason Mukhang mentioned. I watched them all originally on Discovery Channel (I think). I will have to backtrack about how many I've seen as I don't think I have seen more than 100 of the 180 episodes so I need to get busy and find more.


Here's one I liked: Engines Stuck On Full Throttle


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I stumbled across this fascinating video, an Airbus A319 flight through Nepal (great view of Mt Everest) and an approach into Paro, Bhutan.

The pilot says a quick prayer as he weaves through the valleys.


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## OneSeat (Apr 15, 2020)

An arm's-length friend visits Bhutan every year - combination of work and pleasure. He just loves the place. Is also fascinated by the last leg of the journey! Thanks for posting - great video.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

OneSeat said:


> An arm's-length friend visits Bhutan every year - combination of work and pleasure. He just loves the place. Is also fascinated by the last leg of the journey! Thanks for posting - great video.


Glad you liked it. Very neat that your friend actually goes there... must be quite an experience.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Here's an interesting example of an accident during takeoff, resulting in a fire and evacuation. The video creator describes the emergency procedures behind the scenes and also plays the radio communications with ATC.

It's informative too. *Don't* try to get items out of the overhead bins. Listen to the cabin crew and follow their exact instructions.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Here's an interesting example of an accident during takeoff, resulting in a fire and evacuation. The video creator describes the emergency procedures behind the scenes and also plays the radio communications with ATC.
> 
> It's informative too. *Don't* try to get items out of the overhead bins. Listen to the cabin crew and follow their exact instructions.


My wife’s cousins was a flight attendant on the Air Transat flight that ran out of fuel. He said that when they landed, an evacuation was ordered. Nobody knew the level of danger or risk of what was happening at the time. Unfortunately, some passengers wanted to get their bags and this caused delays and other risks. The attendants had to physically grab some passengers and “throw” them out of the plane. Of course, afterwards, some of these passengers filed grievances and raised a stink.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ I would be interested in knowing the actual answer to:

Did your cousin grab her bag(s) like her purse? If it's a him, how about his fannypack? No fannypack? Then what about his wallet with his IDs/passport or were they already in his pockets on his body?

My guessing answer is: yes. And so there you go.

Also, shouldn't a flight attendant's first job in that situation was not cause alarm or panic as that seems to be what he/she was doing. As you've stated, the plane was empty of fuel and was on ground already. Was it gonna to blow up soon? Or was there a smoke coming from somewhere? I'm sure she/he could have done better in "telling the passengers not to grab their bags". No wonder the passengers filed grievances. The emergency service there sucked.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ I would be interested in knowing the actual answer to:
> 
> Did your cousin grab her bag(s) like her purse? If it's a him, how about his fannypack? No fannypack? Then what about his wallet with his IDs/passport or were they already in his pockets on his body?
> 
> ...


My guessing answer is no.

can you imagine the panic onboard when everything goes silent and you’re gliding for extended minutes? And you’re over the Atlantic. I’m not sure anyone (other then the pilots) knew the plane was out of fuel.

the plan landed with enough force to blow the tires And damage the airframe. Inflatable emergency slides were deployed for passenger exit. It must have be terrifying. I’d rank the attendants priority is to ensure passenger safety ahead of keeping people calm. I suspect there were numerous calls to evacuate and leaves bags behind. If I was on that flight, I’d be running for the doors.

I’m gonna add “airlines” to my list of industries that beav hates.

Does a customer ever bear responsibility for their actions or is it always the fault of the “evil” corp?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> My guessing answer is no.
> 
> can you imagine the panic onboard when everything goes silent and you’re gliding for extended minutes? And you’re over the Atlantic. I’m not sure anyone (other then the pilots) knew the plane was out of fuel.
> 
> ...





Money172375 said:


> My guessing answer is no.


 ... why don't you ask your cousin for the "real" answer than our guesses.



> can you imagine the panic onboard when everything goes silent and you’re gliding for extended minutes? And you’re over the Atlantic. I’m not sure anyone (other then the pilots) knew the plane was out of fuel.


 .. and so what purpose does it serve the pilots for telling the passengers "our plane is out of fuel and we don't know what's gonna to happen"? It's like telling the passengers them pilots don't know what to do there. Besides, you stated in your post that the plane has "landed with its fuel tank empty" or did the pilot announced that the plane was landing on empty fuel tanks? There's a BIG difference between those 2 scenarios. The first one would have given you mass hysteria, grabbing bags are the last thing the attendants have to worry about. Someone could have been having a heart attack upon hearing "we're CRASHING!" because what else does an airplane without fuel do? Down down down. No?



> the plan landed with enough force to blow the tires And damage the airframe. Inflatable emergency slides were deployed for passenger exit. It must have be terrifying.


 ... you didn't state that - or was I suppose to guess or am familiar with aviations disasters scenarios?



> I’d rank the attendants priority is to ensure passenger safety ahead of keeping people calm. I suspect there were numerous calls to evacuate and leaves bags behind.


 ... don't disagree with this and based on your additional details that the tires were blown with air-frame damaged, then there's a potential fire hazard in which case the attendants should've told the passengers then when landed. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't but you certainly didn't. And so I based on the attendants didn't do a thorough job of calming the passengers first.



> If I was on that flight, I’d be running for the doors.


 ... well, there you go, people panick (which I would think includes you) but then they would want to grab their belongings if and while they can before heading for the exit. And I can picture that scenario of "calmness" NOT.

Let me put it this way, even when the flight is uneventful (aka "normal"), the minute the plane lands and even without the seatbelt signs being off, people start preparing to un-board. They start unbuckling and then as soon as the attendant ain't watching they would be grabbing their overhead bins as they want to get out the plane ASAP to go to their next business meeting!!!! Don't tell me you have never seen this kind of behaviour - considered the "norm" these days - even years ago.



> I’m gonna add “airlines” to my list of industries that beav hates.


 ... if you say/want to but it doesn't change my perception the "banks" are number 1 on my list of the "evil" corps (btw, nicely put - your words). 



> Does a customer ever bear responsibility for their actions or is it always the fault of the “evil” corp?


 ... why are you so (overly) zealous? Or is it your modus operandus that the customer is guilty until proven innocent? Why don't you try to put yourself in the victim's shoes for once? I gather you were never one in the first place. And these complaints are too difficult to tackle - you know, just pick the lowest hanging fruit "to do the job". Typical "company " man.


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## YeahYeahYeah (11 mo ago)

If that was the case that there was no chance of the aircraft catching on fire then just leave the bags. They can be retrieved later


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

the worst of a plane crash with any type of warning is the waiting part. Unless you are one of the people preparing for the landing in which case there is typically no time for idle thoughts.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Money172375 said:


> The attendants had to physically grab some passengers and “throw” them out of the plane.


I think that's reasonable. Every second counts.



Covariance said:


> the worst of a plane crash with any type of warning is the waiting part


I think there are a few things a passenger can be doing with this spare time (the waiting). Study the location of each emergency exit, and visualize the process of moving to them. Study each exit location, in case one is unusable. Close your eyes and repeat the visualization, simulating a smoke-filled cabin. Stay alert and keep your ears open to listen to instructions. Make sure your ID is on you for logistical purposes.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I think that's reasonable. Every second counts.
> 
> 
> 
> *I think there are a few things a passenger can be doing with this spare time (the waiting). Study the location of each emergency exit, and visualize the process of moving to them. Study each exit location, in case one is unusable. Close your eyes and repeat the visualization, simulating a smoke-filled cabin. Stay alert and keep your ears open to listen to instructions. Make sure your ID is on you for logistical purposes.*


 ... lol! I was gonna to address that previously. "The study of the procedures in the event of an emergency evacuation or crash" - you know reading those emergency cards behind the seats or alternatively viewing and listening to that video BEFORE the take-off. 

Based on my observations even from years ago, I would say 9 out of 10 doesn't bother. They're too busy either checking/viewing/yapping their cellphone, working on their computer (until told (repeated) to shut off during takeoff) or settle-in to doze off. When the plane crashes, oh well. Not every flight has a Captain Scully.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Beaver101 said:


> or settle-in to doze off


I think this is an important one: don't sleep during the 5 or maybe 10 minutes of take-off, or when landing. Those are when most crashes happen. So you really want to be awake and alert during take-off and landing.

I used to sometimes listen to music, or doze off, during those parts of the flight but stopped doing that after watching enough Mayday episodes.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

james4beach said:


> I think that's reasonable. Every second counts.
> 
> 
> 
> I think there are a few things a passenger can be doing with this spare time (the waiting). Study the location of each emergency exit, and visualize the process of moving to them. Study each exit location, in case one is unusable. Close your eyes and repeat the visualization, simulating a smoke-filled cabin. Stay alert and keep your ears open to listen to instructions. Make sure your ID is on you for logistical purposes.


One tip I was taught was to count the number of seats between you and the exit. A cabin filled with smoke at night, or a cabin without lights would make an exit quite challenging if you can’t see the exit door.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ So how do you "count" the number of seats to the exit if you can't see the seats themselves? Pretend you're blind and fumble/touch your way out? And what are those glow-in-the-dark reflectors on the floor for?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I think this is an important one: don't sleep during the 5 or maybe 10 minutes of take-off, or when landing. Those are when most crashes happen. So you really want to be awake and alert during take-off and landing.
> 
> I used to sometimes listen to music, or doze off, during those parts of the flight but stopped doing that after watching enough Mayday episodes.


 ... I never sleep during take off or landing - mainly because I can't. I'm either reading those emergency cards or watching a video and after those, I have my eyes closed and say a prayer or 2.


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

another tip: keep your seat belt on, even if loosely, and only remove when actually out of the seat. Also, know how to quickly undo it. Especially if flying in float planes.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Covariance said:


> another tip: keep your seat belt on, even if loosely, and only remove when actually out of the seat. Also, know how to quickly undo it. Especially if flying in float planes.


That's a really good one. There are occasionally incidents of extreme / surprise turbulence on flights. It catches everyone by surprise, passengers can get injured. Even flight attendants can get caught by this and go flying... really dangerous.


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

james4beach said:


> That's a really good one. There are occasionally incidents of extreme / surprise turbulence on flights. It catches everyone by surprise, passengers can get injured. Even flight attendants can get caught by this and go flying... really dangerous.


Ya, been on a couple of flights (TransPac and over Indian Ocean seem to be the worst) with severe and sudden turbulence that required passenger(s) to deplane on a stretcher. Some pretty crazy negative Gs. 

And, strangely I've been on three flights were the emergency exit door started to leak air (none opened). Two diverted and landed. One of them, we descended to low levels, pilot inspected, and then announced it was safe and we would proceed to as planned. Everyone sat there for 2.5 hours and hoped he was correct while it hissed away.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

Money172375 said:


> My flying curiosity hit me today. Does this flight from Germany to Canada head north to Iceland and Greenland to maintain contact with possible airports in case of emergency? ETOPS Rule?
> 
> Or possibly weather related.
> 
> ...


I think others have addressed your original query. All I wanted add is that I find the most interesting aspect of ETOPS is the rules surrounding passenger recovery once an A/C has diverted and landed in a remote airfield. Sending repair technicians and a spare engine etc as well as sending another airplane to pick up passengers.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This is a great story on Mayday about a Swedish flight in 1991.

Want to see what happens when both engines on a jet fail (and _disintegrate in flames_) in the air, and the plane has no power at all ... not even electrical. I don't want to spoil the story but it's a happy outcome.


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