# Boris & Brexit



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Early polls are showing Boris thumping everyone & on his way to a Conservative majority. 

He is leading in 368 riding....326 is needed for a majority.

I think the UK did the right thing, self determination on social issues as opposed to being brow beaten by Eurotrash. 
Congrats to the citizens of the UK.

Election 2019 Live: The Results | ITV Newshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBpXBxK1H2M


----------



## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Eder said:


> Early polls are showing Boris thumping everyone & on his way to a Conservative majority.
> 
> He is leading in 368 riding....326 is needed for a majority.
> 
> ...


Making a decision is easy. Living with the consequences is the part people have a tough time with.
SNP made big gains in Scotland. They want to have an independence referendum if Brexit goes ahead. The end of the UK.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

The wars were the end of the uk, they just have trouble admitting it.


----------



## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

Eder said:


> I think the UK did the right thing, self determination on social issues as opposed to being brow beaten by Eurotrash.


Your opinion is valid. The needless bigotry should be excised.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Maybe. I understand the social issues that seem to have hit the UK disproportionately, but UK economic, military and social presence on the world stage has been sliding for decades. The UK may need others more than others want the UK. Could also be the beginning of the end for the Union as well.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

As the European Union’s importance on the world stage grows, its politics are fragmenting: Smaller, more ideological parties, including populists and nationalists, have made gains and weakened the traditional, more centrist parties.

If the 5 EU globalist presidents aren't trash then I don't know who is. Good on the UK...self determination is a fundamental freedom easily squandered.


----------



## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

The pound is rallying on the news of Conservatives' win.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

As someone with a stake in this issue (income from UK subject to FX rates and a UK passport that till now has given me the right to live and work in all of the EU) and having been born there, I have watched this debacle(in my view) from day one.

The UK is not like Canada in that it is a Union of countries, not provinces. I don't know how many Canadians posting here can or do understand that fundamental difference. Brexit has divided the UK as nothing else has ever even come close to doing. Scotland in particular has long resented the typical English attitude in Westminster Parliament of ignoring the Scots, Welsh and N. Ireland people's wishes and making decisions based ONLY on England and the wishes of the English. That is what eventually led to both Scotland and Wales fighting for their own independent parliaments in 1999 (Scotland) and 2011 (Wales). Serious cracks in the Union.

If you look at the voting both in the original Brexit referendum and in yesterday's election, just how strong a difference there is in the wishes of the people of Scotland is, is extremely clear. Johnson in his speech today talked about 'one nation'. Unfortunately, the UK is NOT one nation and never has been. It is a UNION of several nations, all of whom see themselves as an individual nation.

The UK will now leave the EU, there is no question of that but the question that remains is what will happen within the UK? It is now almost inevitable that Scotland at least will fight to leave the UK and rejoin the EU. That conclusion was also made as clear as the UK leaving the EU, in this election.

When Scotland had it's referendum on independence in 2014, 55% voted no to independence with a record 84.6% voter turnout. Clearly, at that time, most Scots still wanted to remain part of the UK even if most were also unhappy with Westminster. In yesterday's election however, the Scottish Nationalist Party got 80% of all the Scottish seats. People like my brother-in-law who would never have voted for Independence, voted now for the SNP because they now see the only way to be in the EU is through independence from the UK and in particular, independence from England. It has become a question of making the best of a bad thing. The preference I am sure of most Scots would be to stay in the UK but ONLY if the UK remained in the EU. Take away that choice as is now going to happen and the only choice left is to leave the UK to rejoin the EU. I now see Scotland's leaving the UK and rejoining the EU as pretty much inevitable.

For Canadians who want to try and understand the fundamental difference between the UK and Canada in this regard, consider the difference compared to our own Quebec independence vote in 1995. They had a huge record voter turnout of 93.5% and a NO to independence only won with a vote of 50.58%. Now suppose that was Scotland in this Brexit situation and they have voted 80% to stay in the EU. Compare that to if 80% of Quebecers had voted to leave Canada. That would be the equivalent.

Now suppose Ontario said to Quebec under those circumstances, 'no you aren't leaving Canada because the rest of Canada has voted not to let you leave.' That is what Scots see today. It's really just the reverse situation. Scotland wants to stay in the EU and the rest of the UK is saying, 'no we will not let you.' Canada did not tell Quebec, 'no you can't leave', against a majority of Quebecers wanting to leave. Imagine if we did. 

Who here is old enough to remember the FLQ? If you aren't, it was our own home grown terrorist organization in Quebec who perpetrated many acts of violence in the 60s in support of Quebec independence. So much for 'Canadians talk out their differences, not resort to guns like the Americans', we hear so much about. Who is to say what the Scots will do if England and Westminster attempt to stop them from having another independence referendum as Johnson has said he will not agree to? Is the UK headed for blood in the streets? Who knows.

What I do know is that this isn't ended yet. There isn't now going to be a nice calm negotiated agreement with the EU and everyone in the UK will get back to 'business as usual.'


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I watched the map in this link last night develop as the hours went by.....to see how the constituencies changed https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/g...ituency-result-who-won-latest-updates-1340046 It is a heck of a visual to see the fracturing of the Union.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Scotland looks like Alberta was voting. Good on them...they should be independent from England.


----------



## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

The best place for a referendum on Scottish independence is England, not Scotland. There's your problem.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

nobleea said:


> Making a decision is easy. Living with the consequences is the part people have a tough time with.
> SNP made big gains in Scotland. They want to have an independence referendum if Brexit goes ahead. The end of the UK.


Northern Ireland will be out as well. We'll see if there is a resumption of violence.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eder said:


> Scotland looks like Alberta was voting. Good on them...they should be independent from England.


Eder, do you work at sounding foolish or does it come naturally?

Scotland should stay in the UK and the UK should stay in the EU, THAT is what should happen but idiots who don't realize that are the reason why the UK got into this mess in the first place. It is NOT in the interest of the UK to try and go it alone in a world market. They are stronger as part of the EU. It is not in the interest of Scotland to go it alone either, they are stronger as part of the UK AND the EU.

It's very simple, there a little guys and big guys, which do you want to be? People need to learn to see beyond the end of their own nose.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

doctrine said:


> The best place for a referendum on Scottish independence is England, not Scotland. There's your problem.


Please explain that statement, assuming it was actually a serious statement and you were trying to communicate something.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I guess your opinion is different than mine. The UK shouldn't stay in the EU...the election result clearly shows that. Scotland shouldn't stay in the UK...election result clearly shows that. The Brits are wise to abandon that sinking ship.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Eder said:


> I guess your opinion is different than mine. The UK shouldn't stay in the EU...the election result clearly shows that. Scotland shouldn't stay in the UK...election result clearly shows that. The Brits are wise to abandon that sinking ship.


Election results are simply a representation of voter emotions with a recency bias of experience and media/leadership propaganda. They may ultimately be the right thing for self-determination, but often are just another set of lemmings looking for a different cliff to fall off of. While I think the EU is a bureaucratic mess of 28 (soon to be 27) unwieldy entities who can't agree on where to steer the ship, or able to decide on what paper to put in the toilet, there is value in being part of a major bloc. The Brits simply think they can have their independence and favourable trading status at the same time. Unfortunately, small entities generally get left behind and relatively ignored in the world order. 

The good news is the UK is ready to give change a try and the EU itself is being put on notice that it may well have gone 'too far' in both size (entities) and oversight. The worst that can happen is the UK breaks up and/or becomes a former shell of itself when business flees. That may not be a bad thing in shaking the sheets clean.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eder said:


> I guess your opinion is different than mine. The UK shouldn't stay in the EU...the election result clearly shows that. Scotland shouldn't stay in the UK...election result clearly shows that. The Brits are wise to abandon that sinking ship.


I guess you don't have to work at sounding foolish Eder, it must come naturally.

Voter opinion is NOT a clear indication of what is best for a country. They are only an indication of what a majority of voters consider to be best for them personally. Often, they see only in the short term and even then, often they are wrong.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I guess you don't have to work at sounding foolish Longtimeago it must come naturally. (see how easy and impersonal cheap insults are?)

Voter opinion is not important...only votes are. Stamping your feet at the UK election outcome is pointless.


----------



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

my understanding is that britain will depart the EU in january but will then spend all of 2020 trying to hammer out a trade deal with the Union it has just thumbed its nose at.

some wit pointed out it took canada seven long years to negotiate a trade deal with the EU, why would england think it can accomplish the same within 11 months?

i suppose it's even possible that boris johnson could fail. No trade greement in sight by december 2020. England already suffering as head offices move out. Another election & johnson is no longer PM ... england then tries to rejoin the Union ...

lewis carroll understood british dithering so well. Will-you-won't-you-will-you-won't-you-won't-you-join-the-dance-said-the-whiting-to-the-snail.

really, what's an ambitious scottish sturgeon going to do. She certainly isn't going to put up with floating around.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> my understanding is that britain will depart the EU in january but will then spend all of 2020 trying to hammer out a trade deal with the Union it has just thumbed its nose at.
> 
> some wit pointed out it took canada seven long years to negotiate a trade deal with the EU, why would england think it can accomplish the same within 11 months?
> 
> ...


Yes Boris expects to do in one year what took Canada seven years to do and by the way, all the EU trade deals with other countries that exist will of course no longer apply to the UK either so trade deals with many countries will also have to be negotiated. 

I do note humble_pie as a side note, one word you have used is indicative of one of the major reasons why Scotland gets annoyed with the perception of what the UK is. You wrote, "why would england". England is NOT the UK, it is only one part of the UK and when 'England' is used as if it were a synonym of 'UK', it annoys the hell out of most Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish.


----------



## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

I thought this story is a nice update on Brexit and Boris: https://www.businessinsider.com/bor...hicken-promise-trump-brexit-terrifying-2020-2

My take on the pro-Brexit argument is that the EU was controlling standards for goods across the EU. Kind of makes sense if you want a chicken sold in England to be be the same quality as the chicken sold in France. So that was seen as a loss of sovereignty.

Now that the UK is out of the EU and is looking for free trade partners, the first choice is the US. But it looks like the price for that is that the UK would have to drop their standards for chicken as the US use chlorinated and acid washed chicken, which is banned in the UK.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

How chickens are processed will be the least of the problems people in the UK will have to deal with in any trade agreement between the UK and the USA under Trump. You can bet any deal Trump signs will NOT favour the UK at all.


----------



## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

No doubt. I just find the whole situation amusing as one of the complaints about being in the EU is that they have to conform to EU regulations, of which they have influence, but now they'll have to conform to US regulations, of which they have little influence.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

bgc_fan said:


> No doubt. I just find the whole situation amusing as one of the complaints about being in the EU is that they have to conform to EU regulations, of which they have influence, but now they'll have to conform to US regulations, of which they have little influence.


The Brits tend to know how to do it to themselves.... Sometimes the only way to learn is the hard way. 

They are forgetting they don't have the economic clout to dictate standards and will have to accept what both the EU and the USA wants.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> Voter opinion is NOT a clear indication of what is best for a country.


That sums up the entire Democrat mindset...people weren't "smart" enough to vote for them so they have to try to overturn the election. Some liberal elites have even said out loud the elites should decide instead of regular people.

The reality is that people were smart enough to NOT vote for them and they don't like it.


----------



## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> The Brits tend to know how to do it to themselves.... Sometimes the only way to learn is the hard way.
> 
> They are forgetting they don't have the economic clout to dictate standards and will have to accept what both the EU and the USA wants.


That's pretty much what I get from the post-Brexit interviews. The pro-Brexit supporters pretty much state that they expected that they would be treated the same as before as they thought the UK economic benefits to other countries were too good to pass up. And then they found out what happens when they were no longer part of the EU.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> The Brits tend to know how to do it to themselves.... Sometimes the only way to learn is the hard way.
> 
> They are forgetting they don't have the economic clout to dictate standards and will have to accept what both the EU and the USA wants.


Maybe they don't want people they didn't elect making decisions for them. It's not always about the money.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Prairie Guy said:


> Maybe they don't want people they didn't elect making decisions for them. It's not always about the money.


Prairie Guy, it doesn't matter what they want, there is no way the UK is going to come out ahead in any trade deals and they are ALL about the money. When for a simple example, they find out that the price of that nice cheese from an EU country they like is going to now cost them 50% more to buy, the ordinary person will realize what Brexit really means to them.

The people in the UK don't realize how much of what they consume comes from outside of their little island. But they are going to discover it real soon. They have been in the EU since 1973, the majority of the population was born after that. Basically, anyone born after the Boomer genaration. Most of them don't even know how much of what they consume is domestic vs. imported.

When your grocery bill goes up say 25%, then try and tell me 'it's not always about the money.'


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It may, or may not, be worth it to 'feel' independence in sovereign issues like foreign policy and immigration, but it will cost more in jobs and standard of living than they ever thought. Plus it is really mostly the English and Welsh that have imposed this stiff upper lip stubbornness on the nation.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> Maybe they don't want people they didn't elect making decisions for them. It's not always about the money.


The EU wasn't even voting on some laws.
The bureaucracy would write a bill, then they'd pass it into laws without even counting votes. 
It was a significant controversy, particularly in the UK, which is, in general far more concerned with wayward governments than certain EU countries.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> It may, or may not, be worth it to 'feel' independence in sovereign issues like foreign policy and immigration, but it will cost more in jobs and standard of living than they ever thought. Plus it is really mostly the English and Welsh that have imposed this stiff upper lip stubbornness on the nation.


Imposed it? It was a democratic vote with a majority in spite of most of the media against it. 

It's just like how Quebec imposed us with another term of Trudeau except that in our case he had the full backing of the media for him and covering for him instead of against him.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> It may, or may not, be worth it to 'feel' independence in sovereign issues like foreign policy and immigration, but it will cost more in jobs and standard of living than they ever thought. Plus it is really mostly the English and Welsh that have imposed this stiff upper lip stubbornness on the nation.


Or they know how much it will cost and want to do it anyway.

Part of the motivation for Brexit was that condescending attitude from the EU elites. One thing they really don't appreciate is being talked down to.

Just like many Canadians hate the elitist "I know better" attitude of some other political leaders.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

I see Boris & his partner have announced a pregnancy and an engagement. That's the modern world for you!


----------



## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)




----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> Or they know how much it will cost and want to do it anyway.
> 
> Part of the motivation for Brexit was that condescending attitude from the EU elites. One thing they really don't appreciate is being talked down to.
> 
> Just like many Canadians hate the elitist "I know better" attitude of some other political leaders.


Clearly, you are not aware of the English elitism attitude towards the rest of the UK. Or are you one of those who think 'UK" and 'England" are synonyms. 

While the majority of Scots (55%) voted against independence from the UK in their Referendum of 2014, the majority voted against leaving the EU (62%). As a result, Scots who were not in favour of leaving the UK are now shifting over to being in favour of leaving the UK in order to then rejoin the EU.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...ish-independence-yes-leads-remainers-increasi

In N. Ireland, the feelings are much the same. Brexit may well lead to the break-up of the UK. What people who are not Brits have to realize is that Brits do not think of themselves as Brits first. They are English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish FIRST and Brits second. They see themselves as countries, not provinces like Canada or states like the USA. So decisions IMPOSED on them by the English MrMatt do not sit well at all. And yes, AltaRed is right, IMPOSED is the word they will use if you ask them about it.

Just this morning on the news I listened to a Canadian news program where in talking about the Coronavirus situation 'in the UK', what was in fact being reported was an aspect of the situation in ENGLAND only. It just shows how the difference between the 'UK' and 'England' does not exist in the minds of people outside of the UK. 

If you want to know how the average English person sees themselves MrMatt, I always recall meeting an Englishman in a bar in Greece who in conversation said to me, 'I'm not British, I'm English.' I replied, 'that's not what your passport says you are'. He got quite upset and insisted he had an English Passport! So I bet him some money and told him to go to his hotel, get his passport and bring it back to settle the bet. Ne never returned of course since he would have seen that he had a British Passport. That was in the days of the old passports obviously. Photo here: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rows-over-traditional-british-passport-colour


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Clearly, you are not aware of the English elitism attitude towards the rest of the UK. Or are you one of those who think 'UK" and 'England" are synonyms.
> 
> While the majority of Scots (55%) voted against independence from the UK in their Referendum of 2014, the majority voted against leaving the EU (62%). As a result, Scots who were not in favour of leaving the UK are now shifting over to being in favour of leaving the UK in order to then rejoin the EU.
> https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...ish-independence-yes-leads-remainers-increasi
> ...


I'm only vaguely aware of the very significant divisions that the UK has. 
I'm sure considering history, the Scots and Welsh may prefer the completely unaccountable elites in Brussels as opposed to the somewhat more, but still mostly unaccountable elites in London.

It doesn't make sense to me, I'm very much for local distributed power. 
Ie as much power and authority as possible should be given to those closest to the issues at hand. Ideally to the level of the individual.

The whole desire for some massive distance world government to rule us all is inherently distasteful to me.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> The whole desire for some massive distance world government to rule us all is inherently distasteful to me.


That's what the left wants...one government to rule the world. That's why they hate Brexit...they are taking a step away from unaccountable bureaucrats. That's also why they hate Trump...he is a nationalist and they can't have that so they with the help of the media they attempt to portray nationalism and loving your country as racist or supremacist.


----------



## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Prairie Guy said:


> ... That's also why they hate Trump...he is a nationalist and they can't have that so they with the help of the media they attempt to portray nationalism and loving your country as racist or supremacist.


You love your country == You are a patriot
You hate the other guys == You are a nationalist
You love your country and hate the other guys == You are ........ a Trumpist?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Parkuser said:


> You love your country == You are a patriot
> You hate the other guys == You are a nationalist
> You love your country and hate the other guys == You are ........ a Trumpist?


You love your country, and want the best for every single person in the world. I think that makes you alt-right these days.


----------



## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> I'm only vaguely aware of the very significant divisions that the UK has.
> I'm sure considering history, the Scots and Welsh may prefer the completely unaccountable elites in Brussels as opposed to the somewhat more, but still mostly unaccountable elites in London.


Ah yes, the common populist refrain. If you believe that anyone who is elected to parliament is an elite, then by your circular reasoning, no one represents the common person.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48198648

You must be a fan of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez since she is as far from elite than everyone else in the US house of representatives.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ Elites are just anyone in power who you disagree with.


----------



## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

andrewf said:


> ^ Elites are just anyone in power who you disagree with.


Experts working for the government == faceless elites
Journalists not parroting your propaganda == enemies of the people


----------



## BoringInvestor (Sep 12, 2013)

Prairie Guy said:


> That's what the left wants...one government to rule the world. That's why they hate Brexit...they are taking a step away from unaccountable bureaucrats. That's also why they hate Trump...he is a nationalist and they can't have that so they with the help of the media they attempt to portray nationalism and loving your country as racist or supremacist.


Who advocates for one world government?
I haven't heard a single Canadian politician advocate for this.

Have you?
Who?
What did they say?


----------

