# Canada vs. U.S. funding for retirement



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

I'm sure there are loopholes and other exceptions to the rules in U.S.
Retirement in Canada vs. U.S.: What's the Difference? (investopedia.com) 

Let me make a huge broad sweeping statement which I don't have enough details to back up my personal observation on my American family relatives (ie.California):

Generally speaking the relatives up here in Canada for 2 generations (my parents' generation and my generation), are living longer than our U.S. relatives. Also up in Canada there are way more in my generation who have completed university or college education.

I am speaking for my own birth family, their spouses and children plus all my first and 2nd cousins and their children. We're talking about well over *65 *people living in southern Ontario for the past 95 years. Alot of my parents' generation in my extended family were adult immigrants into Canada in their early 20's and up.

My American relatives, approx. 30 that I know, it's not the same. But for education is also motivation of the adult child, not just opportunities, etc. Alot of my aunts and uncles lived to be only in their late 70's to early 80's. I really doubt their diet was super different from ours because starting to eat home cooked Asian meals over 60% of time or less, from babyhood and I, is not that simple "break" that habit and go full steam ahead to abandon it all. It doesn't work that way immediately for many folks that I know raised like me in Canada.

In CAnada, quite a number relatives are into their mid 80's and into their 90's. 

It wouldn't surprise me that my American relative's medical care might have not been good as ours. Due to the U.S. health care system and the reality some just were low-income. Same for my immigrant parents but they have benefitted from Canada's public health care system ....signficantly. They deserve it and contributed to the economy, including raising 6 Canadian born children.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

jlunfirst said:


> It wouldn't surprise me that my American relative's medical care might have not been good as ours.


It’s good if you are in good financial position. In Canada you got to wait (often in pain) and hope that won’t die before your turn to get medical care. In the USA if you got full health coverage you will get surgery tomorrow. 
I really feel sorry for communistic health care system that Canada got. It really doesn’t motivate people to get good care of their own health. 
I feel sorry for high earners in Canada because they pay literally half of income so people that haven’t paid a single penny in taxes are going to get the same service.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Ukrainiandude said:


> It’s good if you are in good financial position. In Canada you got to wait (often in pain) and hope that won’t die before your turn to get medical care. In the USA if you got full health coverage you will get surgery tomorrow.
> I really feel sorry for communistic health care system that Canada got. It really doesn’t motivate people to get good care of their own health.
> I feel sorry for high earners in Canada because they pay literally half of income so people that haven’t paid a single penny in taxes are going to get the same service.


Since U.S. seems so good to you, then be on an aggressive hunt to find a job there. One U.S. guy (retired high school teacher, therefore more adept and literate to plough through their system), on the forum, was having problems with a relative to get care because a major research and acute care hospital, John Hopkins Hospital was completely full because of respiratory cases this season. His only in, was his retired nurse sister who used to work here.

Majority of Canadians are not upper middle income and above. What I just said that for the majority of us, U.S. health care system ..we *could not* afford it. I don't care about those who are well off...which might mean some of us here in the forum. We're NOT the majority. We are literate, most likely post high school education.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

I just wanted to add that my parents' generation in my family in Canada started at the same base line as our American same generation family counterpart: All immigrated to North America as young adults in their early 20's, with the occasional older immigrant (a parent), in their 50's to each, CAnada and U.S.

Then each country's relatives, gave birth to and raised several children in Canada and U.S. Some families ranged from 7 children to 2 children each.

I'm just saying in Canada: we live a far better life based on these factors: more of us with Canadian university or college education, many with office/non-labour jobs or in professions, live abit longer, etc.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

And all my parents' generation, worked in restaurants and factories. Some couldn't speak/know much English. Yes, my family is the immigrant dream turned true..they (and same generation relatives) bought their own home, children are better educated and don't have back breaking labour jobs. 

Don't under-estimate adult children with better education/literacy: they are of assistance to the parents on financial, legal and health related matters: either with trained expertise or know better information sources/analyze opinions of experts and question them.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

jlunfirst said:


> Since U.S. seems so good to you, then be on an aggressive hunt to find a job there.


I agree. The constant complaining over the years by someone who thinks other places are so much better should probably vote with their feet and go to those better places. Most of it seems to be either an illusion and/or ideologically based, but there are probably some volunteers here who would happily help carry his bags to the airport.


----------



## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

Ukrainiandude said:


> It’s good if you are in good financial position. In Canada you got to wait (often in pain) and hope that won’t die before your turn to get medical care. In the USA if you got full health coverage you will get surgery tomorrow ...


Sure ... but then again, there's business men in Florida who were diagnosed two years late as their doctor was not allowed to order the test the doctor wanted. It seems they trusted the promo literature too much.



Ukrainiandude said:


> .... I really feel sorry for communistic health care system that Canada got. It really doesn’t motivate people to get good care of their own health.


What makes you think people in the US are more motivated that way?

I've got relatives in the US and Canada where there does not seem to be much of a difference for those who are are or are not motivated.




Ukrainiandude said:


> ... I feel sorry for high earners in Canada because they pay literally half of income so people that haven’t paid a single penny in taxes are going to get the same service.


They must be extremely high income earners. The last I ran the numbers, IIRC it was something like a $130K income earner that was paying about 32% for their average tax rate. Sure, some of the income was taxed close to 50% but it is pretty hard to get to a 50% tax rate for an average.

Cheers


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I


Ukrainiandude said:


> It’s good if you are in good financial position. In Canada you got to wait (often in pain) and hope that won’t die before your turn to get medical care. In the USA if you got full health coverage you will get surgery tomorrow.
> I really feel sorry for communistic health care system that Canada got. It really doesn’t motivate people to get good care of their own health.
> I feel sorry for high earners in Canada because they pay literally half of income so people that haven’t paid a single penny in taxes are going to get the same service.


Have you ever looked at the longevity tables in the US or Canada? Especially the infant mortality rate differences.

Clearly you are labouring under a very basic misunderstanding of our tax system. The difference between marginal tax rates and and average tax rates. You really cannot compare tax rates on income unless you have an understanding of US federal, state, and indeed municipal income tax structures., etc. Making very broad assumptions is very easy...until they are proven to be incorrect at best.

In my experience complainers spend far more of their time and energy complaining at the expense of using that time and energy to move forward in their careers and in their lives.


----------



## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

I've lived and worked in both, along with a few other countries. In my experience you pay more in direct taxes on income, consumption (GST) in Canada. Whereas in the US you end up paying indirectly (HOA, health care, insurance, transaction fees, etc) for a lot of things. Everyones experience is different I suppose and dependent on their circumstances, time of life.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Eclectic21 said:


> Sure, some of the income was taxed close to 50% but it is pretty hard to get to a 50% tax rate for an average.


Compared to 25% in Nevada.
Average tax in Canada is 38%
Average tax in the USA is 31%
Average tax in Ukraine is 19.5%
Average tax in Hungary is 18.5%
Average tax in russia is 13% WTF ?









$150,000 income tax calculator 2022 - Nevada - salary after tax


If you make $150,000 in Nevada, what will your paycheck after tax be? The Talent.com Online Salary and Tax Calculator can help you understand your net pay.




www.talent.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

ian said:


> In my experience complainers spend far more of their time and energy complaining at the expense of using that time and energy to move forward in their careers and in their lives.


For any self respecting immigrant Canada should not be then a transit point to more desirable locations. Once immigrant got Canadian passport, and cheaper Canadian education it makes no sense to stay in this harsh climate and fund Canadian free loaders with your taxes.
Again in the USA you will get the best treatment you can buy (insurance coverage of course), in Canada it doesn’t matter how much taxes you paid you will get the same treatment as someone who hasn’t paid a penny in taxes. Greatest equalizer


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Compared to 25% in Nevada.
> Average tax in Canada is 38%
> Average tax in the USA is 31%
> Average tax in Ukraine is 19.5%
> ...


You need to have a basic understanding of the respective tax codes. For instance...the treatment of capital gains on the sale of one's home. I have a friend who is about to realize $2M plus on the sale of his home. Zero tax. Not so if he was in the US, not buying but moving to rental or other accomodation.

There are also huge differences in property tax rates between states and between countries.

Colorado is in the process of enacting legislation to allow hospitals in Colorado to source drugs in Canada because of the significant difference in drug prices. They will the be eighth or ninth state to do so. US residents who happen to be insulin dependent make trips to Canada to buy insulin...often at one fifth of what they pay in the US.

All of these items, and others, factor into rate of taxation, cost of living comparisons between countries.

Comparing federal/state tax rates without taking into account other taxes or the tax code defining what and how much is subject to tax is misleading at best.

If you really want to save money on taxes I do not understand why you do not pick up sticks and move to the Ukraine or Russia. Just think of how much tax you could save...assuming of course that you could replace your income dollar for dollar so to speak. Then there is standard of living to consider. But no doubt, either might provide the less tax utopia that you appear to be promoting. Good luck with the move!

Do you really expect to obtain the same levels of freedom, security and Government services that you do in Canada?

So why make such a ridiculous and misleading comparison???


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Numerous detailed studies have been done comparing US overall tax burden (income both federal and state/provincial/municipal, property, payroll such as vacation credits, EI, state pension programs, etc, etc) and they are comparable. Comparable is the best one can say because it depends on wages/salary, and geographic location (state, province, municipality) and the returns one receives over time. States with zero or low income taxes like Texas have very stiff property tax rates and vice versa. It is likely Canada's tax system is more progressive, meaning lower income earners are better off in Canada than in the USA and vice versa for high 6+ figure salaries. It is an ideological argument more than anything and any one can spin the data (data mine) the way they want.

That doesn't even begin to get into purchasing power comparisons and life issues such as infant mortality, public safety and dietary health comparisons. There are numerous reasons for US actuarial age to be considerably less than that of Canada. What one decides to do (live) is highly dependent on an individual's priorities.

It is a totally useless argument.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Any one has numbers of how many people moved from Canada into the USA and visa versa? 
per 100 thousand people.
Ask yourself why Canada is so desperate and aggressive to intake and trick more people into the country?
Meanwhile in the USA there’s no deficiency of highly educated and experienced and willing to move to the USA. The USA/ Australia/ New Zealand can set the bar very high and get best of the best. Meanwhile Canada gets mostly people who are not welcome into the above listed countries.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

You are embarr


Ukrainiandude said:


> Any one has numbers of how many people moved from Canada into the USA and visa versa?
> per 100 thousand people.
> Ask yourself why Canada is so desperate and aggressive to intake and trick more people into the country?
> Meanwhile in the USA there’s no deficiency of highly educated and experienced and willing to move to the USA. The USA/ Australia/ New Zealand can set the bar very high and get best of the best. Meanwhile Canada gets mostly people who are not welcome into the above listed countries.


I do not understand what you are waiting for.

Pick one....US, Ukraine, Russia and go. You will be so much better off.

Don't forget to write and tell us all about it. How wonderful it is, and what an improvement you have experienced in your standard of living and level of contentment.

Or are you like many glass half full people, naysayers, and constant complainers.....the joy of complaining feeds your ego?


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Post #14 is yet more assertions, innuendo and personal bias. No facts. However, if the Dude is into sound bites pulled from the Internet, try Immigration to Canada vs the USA: Which is the Better Option?


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

AltaRed said:


> Post #14 is yet more assertions, innuendo and personal bias. No facts. However, if the Dude is into sound bites pulled from the Internet, try Immigration to Canada vs the USA: Which is the Better Option?


Seems to me that Ukraine and Russia are much better options for him given the level of taxation that he quotes. 

On the plus side to that I do not think that their respective immigration departments will have much of a backlog of those wanting to immigrate. He should get the green light to either country ASAP. I would avoid relocating to the Ukraine this winter though.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It is really just trolling for trolling sake. The thread has gotten extremely off topic and has become worthless.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

ian said:


> I would avoid relocating to the Ukraine this winter though.


You don’t have to tell. My parents and siblings all are living in Ukraine. In fact my brother and my sister in law just had a baby girl last week.
Despite the war no one expressed desire to relocate to Canada. I have suggested in the past.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

If NATO removes all funding to Ukraine, they will be flying Russian flags in a month.

Watch the US Congress. The Republicans are already setting up to stop the funding to Ukraine.

Here is what they are saying on conservative media and openly themselves.

The money is being siphoned off.

The US military needs the money.

Americans are going hungry.

The debt is too high.

Ukraine is corrupt.

And soon they will be holding hearings, as the far right push the more moderate Kevin McCarthy out of the Speaker job.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

I was surprised 1 aunt who immigrated to the U.S.when she was around mid 60's. Her son is there. Maybe she doesn't get along with daughter who immigrated and lives in Toronto for past 25 years. She has 2 adult children. Or maybe she heard about cold and snow..which for someone from southern China that could be a real turn off.

Anyway, getting back to my original post of my extended familial comparisons between Canada and U.S., it is of course highly biased. But nevertheless, because I know these people personally and how they evolved over the last few decades....it is incredible how they have evolved. 

I just would like to comment on the incredible Toronto medical expertise my family has benefitted since they also are fortunate to live in same city that has several specialized local public hospitals:
*my father had prostate cancer for 7 yrs. But he had a very quality life until final 6 months of life where he finally did get chemotherapy after seeing urologist, etc. at Princess Margaret Hospital, a major cancer research hospital. That was put off because you need to understand getting chemo in your 80's, is last desperate measure and chemo is a power chemical on a fragile, aging body. He was in pallative care at another hospital for 4 months where he died. In terms of cost: Not very much. I asked my siblings...there wasn't much, folks. My father was a restaurant cook before retirement. So low income all his working life.

*my great nephew had brain cancer and died at 3 yrs. old. He could not develop properly because the brain controlling those functions was consumed by the cancer. Numerous visits to Hospital for Sick Children, which is 1 of CAnada's top pediatric research and acute care hospitals. If there was a cost, it wasn't they couldn't cope. No, he died at home because that's what the parents wanted. the mother is a pediatrician.

There were some multi-hr. long waits in emergency ward for certain situations. However it was to those family members, a small price. 

I cannot begin to emphasize how important it is to live in an area in Canada in the last few decades of life, where your home is not hundreds of kms. away from an acute care hospital with some specialists.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

The simplest measure of quality of life is GDP per capita.
Of course there are other factors, but ultimately that's what matters. How much value is the country generating per person. Distribution is another thing. For that reason I believe poor and lower middle class (not homeless, those are screwed in Canada) have it better in Canada. Middle class and above generally have much more enjoyable life in the US, climate, cost of living, and strong economy being the biggest factors


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

damian13ster said:


> The simplest measure of quality of life is GDP per capita.
> Of course there are other factors, but ultimately that's what matters. How much value is the country generating per person. Distribution is another thing. For that reason I believe poor and lower middle class (not homeless, those are screwed in Canada) have it better in Canada. Middle class and above generally have much more enjoyable life in the US, climate, cost of living, and strong economy being the biggest factors


Well, honest the poor and lower middle class probably covers the majority of Canadians. Let's get real.
I agree the homeless are screwed, regardless of country.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Being in this forum and based on active participates, most likely we're middle class and upper edge on middle. Or highly literate lower class or had a blue collar /trades job that paid well. To participate in this forum and to write properly some detailed thoughts with coherence, does require some level of literacy.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

jlunfirst said:


> Being in this forum and based on active participates, most likely we're middle class and upper edge on middle. Or highly literate lower class or had a blue collar /trades job that paid well. To participate in this forum and to write properly some detailed thoughts with coherence, does require some level of literacy.


Sorry to judge....but I've worked for some employers, where some employees had to deal with members of the public who had tough time verbally expressing themselves (and these were English language full-on speakers) or writing in a logical, clear way.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

And please don't cut down further education after high school. I'm a strong believer it helps a person to even think better and in a more flexible way at any stage in life.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Perhaps it is worthwhile to look at StatsCan data (latest is 2020) for number of Canadians in $10k increments for some facts. I expected more of a bulge in the true middle class rather than how flat it is.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

AltaRed said:


> Perhaps it is worthwhile to look at StatsCan data (latest is 2020) for number of Canadians in $10k increments for some facts. I expected more of a bulge in the true middle class rather than how flat it is.


While true, some of my closest friends are like myself, middle income. I personally know a few others very well, who live at $30,000 income for 2 people. The couple is my age. And a sister who is probably earning no more than $45,000 as a receptionist or even a bit less. She is single and no children. Should I browbeat her to get a better job? No. She works in a well-known large pediatric hospital in patient-intake. 

I'm not taking a rosy blind outlook, simply because it has become alot tougher for next generations after boomers: costs of education, housing and necessities. Or course, given my background, myself /my siblings' success has stood on the shoulders of my immigrant low-income parents. I do think it's important the grandchildren / nieces /nephews/great xxxx be exposed in person (not Zoom) directly to the immigrant generation even if they can't understand Chinese.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

But overall the median income is not high. Which all of it is affected by unemployed, etc. Stats. Canada chart took awhile to dynamically generate for me. So I pasted image.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Middle class is a family with take home (net) income 100k+ per working family member ? 
I don’t know many middle class families in Canada. Do you?


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Middle class is a family with take home (net) income 100k+ per working family member ?
> I don’t know many middle class families in Canada. Do you?


I know some and they have additional education, on top of high school. Some have jobs that require the degree for the job skill set, while others like 1 sister does not. She did her degree in biology. I don't personally don't know anyone in the trades, where it may be possible to earn a $100,000+. 

My extended family has extremes....restaurant and factory workers all their lives, some like my sister receptionist, while others earning decent salaries in health care professions, etc. So far no one, homeless yet. That would be a family kinda nightmare, especially for any parent.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

This is what I mean: forum participants here aren't necessarily reflecting the net worth of majority of Canadians.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

I know this is a money forum with a tendency on technical /numeric questions. But money as a topic is so influential and broad in its reach/influence on social class, attitudes, behaviours, interpersonal relationships both business and deeply personal relationships.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

jlunfirst said:


> Well, honest the poor and lower middle class probably covers the majority of Canadians. Let's get real.
> I agree the homeless are screwed, regardless of country.


Well, they are screwed here because its damn cold! Better to be homeless in LA or San Diego 

But yeah, working poor and lower middle class is likely majority of Canada - which shows just how badly the country is mismanaged. You can see the divergence between real GDP per capita in US and Canada. The pie here is shrinking


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

GDP per capita is primarily a reflection of productivity, i.e. the value of goods and services generated. We simply don't have the number of higher end, higher valued goods and services that a number of other countries do. Until we scrap more of the lower end jobs by either automation or simply not doing them, and invest more in high end manufacturing and professional services, we will not increase our per capita GDP.

Canada appears to be 24th in the world this year versus US at 7th, GDP per Capita by Country 2022


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

AltaRed said:


> Canada appears to be 24th in the world this year versus US at 7th


The USA is a better economy = better living standards and better retirement


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It is a matter of perspective of where one is at in their life's journey. The economic opportunities are better in the USA during accumulation and the climate is better in a number of places (but not everywhere) but many aspects of the quality of life are not better stateside. It depends on what is important for each individual.

You harp a lot here complaining about Canada and how it is better in many other places, more so than most. I fail to understand why you continue to remain miserable remaining in Canada. Perhaps it is time to suck it up and tone down your whining? Or vote with your feet.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

AltaRed said:


> You harp a lot here complaining about Canada and how it is better in many other places, more so than most. I fail to understand why you continue to remain miserable remaining in Canada. Perhaps it is time to suck it up and tone down your whining? Or vote with your feet.


I am not miserable, but I feel cheated, underpaid and I am wasting my earning potential while staying working in Canada.
I will move, don’t you worry. I just don’t make impulsive decisions and I don’t enjoy moving in the middle of the winter.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

AltaRed said:


> GDP per capita is primarily a reflection of productivity, i.e. the value of goods and services generated. We simply don't have the number of higher end, higher valued goods and services that a number of other countries do. Until we scrap more of the lower end jobs by either automation or simply not doing them, and invest more in high end manufacturing and professional services, we will not increase our per capita GDP.
> 
> Canada appears to be 24th in the world this year versus US at 7th, GDP per Capita by Country 2022


Precisely, and GDP per capita appears to have peaked in Canada in 2013. Since then it has been in a downtrend/stagnant as brain drain progresses and private investment in the country drops.
It really is hard to envision the country being better off than it is economically in 10 years, unless oil and lumber shoot up 100% in price. Hard to come up with a different scenario in which Canada will begin trending in right direction


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

We are not supposed to get political in Money forums/threads, so I won't do that here, but I agree long term Canadian government policy has been hazardous to our longer term economic health. We have constrained any ability to get big projects off the ground such as LNG and we have placed high burdens on the cost of operating business and industry in Canada.

Somehow we don't know how to combine compassionate social policy with strong economic policy like northern Europe has, e.g. Scandinavia as a particular regional example. I don't particularly want us to be in the top 5 (GDP/capita) with societal behaviours of the type that exist in Singapore or the USA (as examples), but there is no particular reason why we cannot be a top 15 (GDP/capita) country if we had proper leadership.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Nothing political here. Simply investments have dropped, real GDP growth stopped, and economic prospects of the country are very poor over a next decade or two, unless there is massive, sustained commodities boom (which might, or even is likely to happen). 

For that reason one has to rely solely on their own savings for retirement in order to be safe - but with the massive cross-border mobility and rapidly changing workplace it is the case for significant portion of people anyway.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Our investment portfolio along with CPP (and any other annuity based pension) is what we all count on for our retirement plan anyway. Most of my investments are in ex-Canadian equities/ETFs with my Canadian stocks primarily blue chip multi-nationals with a majority ex-Canadian content (telecoms excepted of course).

I've never had much of anything in Canadian stocks with exclusive, or primarily operating, in Canada. The few that I have held over time have not done all that well. I still prefer to live here though on an overall pro/con basis.

Besides, unless one makes the move ex-Canada before they have acquired much in the way of appreciated assets, the deemed disposition of assets will incur excessive cap gains taxes with a departure. The market value of my non-registered capital assets is more than double its cost basis. I couldn't permanently move now if I wanted too.... and I don't for family reasons anyway.


----------



## OneSeat (Apr 15, 2020)

AltaRed said:


> ..........with societal behaviours of the type that exist in Singapore or the USA (as examples) .......... ....


Just to be clear, what are you referring to here?


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

OneSeat said:


> Just to be clear, what are you referring to here?


A multitude of things such as 'dog eat dog', expectations of long work weeks, lack of statutory vacation time, social support for the disadvantaged, gender parity in the workplace. In essence, societal violence, social discourse tendencies.

One anecdote: When I was an ex-pat, comparable American peers in the mother ship tended not to take their full annual vacation entitlement which was 2 or 3 weeks depending on service, while me, as a company Canadian employee had 6 weeks and there was no way I was going to give any of them up.... even if I did work 45-50 hr work weeks the other 46 weeks of the year. Quality of life didn't seem to be as important to them as to me.


----------



## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> One anecdote: When I was an ex-pat, comparable American peers in the mother ship tended not to take their full annual vacation entitlement which was 2 or 3 weeks depending on service, while me, as a company Canadian employee had 6 weeks and there was no way I was going to give any of them up.... even if I did work 45-50 hr work weeks the other 46 weeks of the year. Quality of life didn't seem to be as important to them as to me.


Quality of life means something different in the US vs Canada. In the US, the focus of quality of life is in "work and achievement" and it is more akin to constant competition. The 18 hour work day is common among the most successful. Failure isn't frowned upon, but lack of effort is. If your going to fail, fail like a Texan and do it big. IMO, Canadians see competition as less important, and cooperation more important.


----------



## OneSeat (Apr 15, 2020)

- replying to AltaRed -

Well - so much of that depends on the nature of the work, the employer and the employee that the specific country involved is incidental and therefore any such summaries are hyperthetical. There are even variations from village to village.

".... had 6 weeks (vacation) and there was no way I was going to give any of them up"
Did you have that choice?


----------



## Faramir (11 mo ago)

Ukrainiandude said:


> It’s good if you are in good financial position. In Canada you got to wait (often in pain) and hope that won’t die before your turn to get medical care. In the USA if you got full health coverage you will get surgery tomorrow.
> I really feel sorry for communistic health care system that Canada got. It really doesn’t motivate people to get good care of their own health.
> I feel sorry for high earners in Canada because they pay literally half of income so people that haven’t paid a single penny in taxes are going to get the same service.


I agree and there are problems with these casual observations. I don't think there is a difference between USA and Canadians as far as how many go to university. In general we are told there is a huge productivity problem in Canada.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

afulldeck said:


> Quality of life means something different in the US vs Canada. In the US, the focus of quality of life is in "work and achievement" and it is more akin to constant competition. The 18 hour work day is common among the most successful. Failure isn't frowned upon, but lack of effort is. If your going to fail, fail like a Texan and do it big. IMO, Canadians see competition as less important, and cooperation more important.


That is a fair assessment given my 10 years of exposure to the US work environment.


----------



## Faramir (11 mo ago)

sags said:


> If NATO removes all funding to Ukraine, they will be flying Russian flags in a month.
> 
> Watch the US Congress. The Republicans are already setting up to stop the funding to Ukraine.
> 
> ...


When I think Ukraine I just see Zelensky shoveling a bunch of money into Hunter's hat. Maybe Zelensky should have not have been putting all his eggs in the Democrat Party basket. He chose badly.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

OneSeat said:


> - replying to AltaRed -
> 
> Well - so much of that depends on the nature of the work, the employer and the employee that the specific country involved is incidental and therefore any such summaries are hyperthetical. There are even variations from village to village.
> 
> ...


Certainly. As I said, an anecdote in our office environment with ex-pats from a variety of countries.

Yes, I could have just let anything more than statutory requirements for vacation time fade into the sunset. There was no pay out for time not taken, but the minimum required by law had to be taken in our company. That should always be the case to avoid companies putting pressure on employees to take money in lieu of vacation... kind of what Musk might likely (try to) do.


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> GDP per Capita by Country 2022


Thanks for sharing the link to GDP. I think that GDP growth or decline is a great bell weather of what a country can do for its citizens. How they allocate the benefit of that production is a totally different scenario and quite subjective.


----------



## OneSeat (Apr 15, 2020)

londoncalling said:


> Thanks for sharing the link to GDP. I think that GDP growth or decline is a great bell weather of what a country can do for its citizens.


Agreed. And basically the same balance should be used for all (senior) management remuneration.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

GDP per capita is a good indicator but it can be misleading. As an example, a significant portion of Canada's GDP is tied up in housing output similar to some other countries like Australia, New Zealand and some others I cannot recall right now. Some of that output is important but so is GDP associated with value added industrial and professional services output that may have more sustainability. Anyways, this is getting off-topic to the main thrust of the thread.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Interesting bits from Reddit 
Graduating soon in the healthcare field, I was pretty much set on working in Canada but due to the deterioration of healthcare in Ontario coupled with the fact that Canadian hospitals have absolutely 0 drive to recruit me (no incentives, unresponsive management, delayed interviews), I have to start considering US jobs seriously as well. I'm debating between a few offers, here's a snapshot:

Offer 1: Canada, GTA: $50CAD/hr starting, $66CAD/hr in 5 years, 1.5x for OT, DB pension (HOOPP), 3-4 weeks vacation

Offer 2: USA, NY State, low cost of living area: $65USD/hr starting. $77USD/hr in 5 years, 1.5x for OT, 403 b 50% match up to 5% of my salary contribution (I'm not sure if I'm reading this part correctly), 5-6 weeks vacation, likely a small signing bonus but haven't discussed yet

#####
Having worked in the states myself I will throw in a few points to consider

10 years of work in the US and you will qualify for US social security. So if you do decide to go try to stay for at least 10 years to get the 40 credits you need to qualify. I was there for 12 years and I will get over $2k usd a month when I retire.

Things are cheaper in the US generally

US healthcare is actually very good IF you get a GOOD insurance plan PAID FOR BY YOUR EMPLOYER

Taxes are less , live in one of the 7 states that have no state income tax and that’s even better

Interest on your mortgage is tax deductible in the US so more savings if you want to own your home.

####

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/comments/zn5xnq


----------



## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> 10 years of work in the US and you will qualify for US social security. So if you do decide to go try to stay for at least 10 years to get the 40 credits you need to qualify. I was there for 12 years and I will get over $2k usd a month when I retire.


Wow. It did take (before the recent change) 39 years to get maximum CPP and its only 1,253.59 ('22). Sounds like everyone should take a tour south for at least 10 years....


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It does not work that way. 40 credits is the minimum at which one gets benefits. It takes a lifetime (35 years) of working (420 months) to get maximum benefit. Lots or resources on the net to do calculation estimates but this one is as good as any. How to Calculate Your Social Security Benefits | The Motley Fool


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> It takes a lifetime (35 years) of working (420 months) to get maximum benefit.


It's not only the working years but also how much you've paid into it one has to look at. If one is paying more yearly % of their wage it should pay out more in retirement.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

cainvest said:


> It's not only the working years but also how much you've paid into it one has to look at. If one is paying more yearly % of their wage it should pay out more in retirement.


Yes, as the link outlines. In our case for CPP, it is YMPE. For Social Security it is AIME. The point really is the system is not a lot different, just that maximum annual contributions and payouts are different.

For example, if one retires at full retirement age in 2022, maximum benefit would be $3,345 a month, and if one retires at age 62 in 2022, maximum benefit would be $2,364 a month.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Sorry...really, my extended family in Canada for last 90 years across 65+ relatives, are far better off here rather than my American relatives. My American relatives are good people, none are druggies, etc. Just so to give a common starting point in terms of our individual personalities and behaviours that influence our life choices.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

AltaRed said:


> It does not work that way. 40 credits is the minimum at which one gets benefits. It takes a lifetime (35 years) of working (420 months) to get maximum benefit. Lots or resources on the net to do calculation estimates but this one is as good as any. How to Calculate Your Social Security Benefits | The Motley Fool


Earn 40 credits to become fully insured
In 2022, the amount needed to earn one credit is $1,510. You can work all year to earn four credits ($6,040), or you can earn enough for all four in a much shorter length of time. *If you earn four credits a year, then you will earn 40 credits after 10 years of work*.


https://www.ssa.gov/myaccount/assets/materials/eligibility-for-benefits.pdf


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

That is what I said... 40 credits to get retirement benefits. I worked not quite long enough (10 years) to get 40 credits. I am quite aware how this works and how it can also coordinate and integrate with CPP if one didn't work long enough in Canada to get full CPP service. 

THe US SS system requires 420 credits and high enough income over 35 years of AIME to get full retirement benefits. Anything less than 420 credits (35 years) reduces the retirement benefit. It is not difficult to understand.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

My buddy who moved to the US said that the main difference for him was the cost to and ease to acquire things plus he did not develop deep friendships like he had in Canada. He did buy a gun though! He went in the 80s and is still there.

I declined several offers to move there.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Well this video with over 25 million views may herald that the eventual decline (which might happen in our lifetime) of the USA (I don’t believe it won’t touch Canada) and emerging of new global superpower with new reserve currency. Similar things happened to Dutch gulden and british pound.


----------



## Faramir (11 mo ago)

AltaRed said:


> That is what I said... 40 credits to get retirement benefits. I worked not quite long enough (10 years) to get 40 credits. I am quite aware how this works and how it can also coordinate and integrate with CPP if one didn't work long enough in Canada to get full CPP service.
> 
> THe US SS system requires 420 credits and high enough income over 35 years of AIME to get full retirement benefits. Anything less than 420 credits (35 years) reduces the retirement benefit. It is not difficult to understand.


Yes my wife only has 10 working years in the USA, which I understand to mean she will get 10/40 or 1 quarter of the measly amount handed out for social security. Much more of an income based system than CPP. CPP is sort of a welfare/retirement benefit. For instance theoretically you can work one day your whole life and have one CPP deduction and still get the minimum, which is around $250 I think these days.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Well this video with over 25 million views may herald that the eventual decline (which might happen in our lifetime) of the USA (I don’t believe it won’t touch Canada) and emerging of new global superpower with new reserve currency. Similar things happened to Dutch gulden and british pound.


I don't look at YouTube videos (for the most part) but I subscribe to his written materials, including his digital book. His macro principles are hard to argue with, it being common sense and human history, The question is the depth and timing of the fall of the US superpower. It will be well past my best before date.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

AltaRed said:


> I don't look at YouTube videos (for the most part) but I subscribe to his written materials, including his digital book. His macro principles are hard to argue with, it being common sense and human history, The question is the depth and timing of the fall of the US superpower. It will be well past my best before date.


Alot of Americans don't quite see the world economic downfall of their country's prominence --yet. They do see real economic and political threats from ie. China. That's what they do understand. Some thoughtful Americans know that their presence as tourists, may be resented / they are innocent targets in certain countries. (same for Canadians but abit different in terms of negativity).


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

jlunfirst said:


> Alot of Americans don't quite see the world economic downfall of their country's prominence --yet.


That is because they are so economically dominant by a country mile yet, by a combination of GDP per capita (7th) and total GDP ($23T vs China $18T). China's GDP may actually level off rather than continue to increase exponentially given the threat their increasingly powerful industries are to their autocratic rule. I think the real threat comes from the enemy within, i.e. social warfare as a result of extremism and increasing physical violence.


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

I am not sure if/when China will take over as the next great empire. I believe that the US is in decline and there is a chance that it will implode. The system is broken and when the masses rise up the elite will relocate. It has never been easier for the ruling class to move on than ever before. A lot of people are predicting that many of the world's current systems are about to go through a major change. I don't think change happens as dramatically as we would like to pinpoint. Yes there are monumental moments and events but a lot of the changes are more organic and build upon the previous. Only time will tell.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Revolutions are most likely to happen for economic reasons.
There is currently few countries with stronger economy than US and within next decade it is hard to envision a scenario in which US will lose the relative strength of the economy it has now. On the contrary, as globalization starts to recede and more manufacturing will be done in US, it can have two-fold effect: 1) the trade deficit will be lower, making US less reliant on foreign investment in financial assets 2) inflation will be higher, and as we have seen inflation usually leads to flight to US dollar anyway


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

The US building walls to prevent immigrants entering their country.
Canadian governments ready to kiss everyone‘s arse trying to attract and retain as many immigrants as possible.
all you need to know about both countries health system, and living standards.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Ukrainiandude said:


> The US building walls to prevent immigrants entering their country.
> Canadian governments ready to kiss everyone‘s arse trying to attract and retain as many immigrants as possible.
> all you need to know about both countries health system, and living standards.


We have a big problem in certain sectors, Ukrainandude of getting workers to fill certain jobs. Right now. After some Canadians just don't want to work in certain sectors in big numbers to fill the gaps...hospitality industry and health care sector has alot of burnt out people.

Most Calgarians who vacation often enough in Banff and Lake Louise area see often those come in to fill the jobs in hotels, restaurants from overseas or other part of Canada (looking for outdoor sports if they find personal time). It's ongoing big problem ..

And of course because of health care sector is another challenge with burnt out people.

But I believe your mind is already made up about Canada a long time ago. So enjoy your holidays.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

jlunfirst said:


> But I believe your mind is already made up about Canada a long time ago.


It’s simpler than that. Merry Christmas to you too!


----------



## Italicum (Feb 10, 2017)

To each their own. Personally, GDP growth at PPP, productivity or generally economics are important (and yes we could do better with our natural and human resources) but secondary to vastly more important aspects that make for civilized, happy lives. I thank heavens for having landed here, rather than south of the border over 40 years ago from western europe (I guarantee i would have left the US if i did not). I had numerous better paid opportunities in US, especially during the .com boom years which i turned down. I don’t only look at what is most convenient for me but rather what is best for the entire community/country i live in. Very generally speaking from my standpoint, Canadian society is far saner, safer and just than that in the US.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Based on what?


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

I find it a little pointless actually trying to convince those who felt Canada was overall better than U.S. Or think U.S. is best spot to live permanently (vs. working 

I am living and as well many family members better overall in life quality in Canada than our American family members. I just found out a cousin's son (who is in mid-30's) is on Ontario's sunshine govn't employee lists for salaries over $100,000. Good for him, considering the reality he immigrated @10 yrs. old AND was put back 2 grades. He came from a poor family..father as a cook and dishwasher in Chinatown Toronto.

I don't know why. He wasn't a misbehaving boy either. Despite all that and long journey onward he graduated from Ryerson (now Metro Toronto University) and landed IT job. He is married with 2 kids.

There's lots of stories like this in my extended family. Lots. All except for 1 child, went to public schools in Canada. Most likely my extended family would be poster child(ren) for immigrant parents --> with high achieving adult children. Myself and siblings would be part of those stories.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

True; however single most objective measure of well-being that we have right now is real GDP.
All the other factors, outside of extreme cases such as Afghanistan, are completely subjective and hearing about them from people who never lived in both countries (let alone in multiple locations in those countries) is a bit laughable.
As you can imagine living in New York and Montana is about as different than living in Toronto vs Nunavut when it comes to cultures. 
That's why it is really hard to compare countries on other factors than how much value they produce between all of their inhabitants and factors of production.


----------



## Italicum (Feb 10, 2017)

Edit: this is a comment to post #74.

Based on what is most evident if one thinks about the level of aggressiveness in society, compassion, care, tolerance, greed, the delusion of thinking that we live in a vacuum, separate from the community and the environment we live in. Granted, everyone needs a level of economic comfort to satisfy basic needs but beyond that, i believe and suggest the aspects that i mention are truer measures of what deliver a happy life. But again, to each their own. Everyone is entitled to think otherwise.


----------



## Italicum (Feb 10, 2017)

damian13ster said:


> True; however single most objective measure of well-being that we have right now is real GDP.
> All the other factors, outside of extreme cases such as Afghanistan, are completely subjective and hearing about them from people who never lived in both countries (let alone in multiple locations in those countries) is a bit laughable.
> As you can imagine living in New York and Montana is about as different than living in Toronto vs Nunavut when it comes to cultures.
> That's why it is really hard to compare countries on other factors than how much value they produce between all of their inhabitants and factors of production.


GDP is what we have….to compare the economic standing of countries. Very much imperfect to measure societies. Fair enough if you find it a bit laughable to think beyond that yardstick.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Italicum said:


> GDP is what we have….to compare the economic standing of countries. Very much imperfect to measure societies. Fair enough if you find it a bit laughable to think beyond that yardstick.


Think about it? For sure. Believe that you have knowledge on it while not living in significant amount of diverse places on both sides of the border - laughable.
If you found a good place for you - awesome! Thinking that the place is objectively better for anyone else though - laughable.

The topic is ' Canada vs US funding for retirement' which is a question directly tied to economic standing of countries


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

I just finished talking to my 24 yr. old nephew who has been working in San Francisco in an IT job (actually it's Meta) and living with also his GF who also has a job with Stripe. I doubt I would even get a proper assessment from him on differences between the 2 countries since they are both CAnadian university grads. from Uof W engineering co-op programs.

A bit young and not yet experiencing all things in a career/life ..yet. I hope the best for him since he has given me some stories of the layoffs he sees around him. He's not certain, stalling him but knows Canada is still place to return. It helps alot to have grown-up in already Canada's biggest city to compare against another American city where they are now in terms of quality of life.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

jlunfirst said:


> salaries over $100,000. Good for him,


Is this take home estimate or pre taxes ? imo it’s not prudent to estimate one‘s income in virtual dollars,
because virtual salary over 100k might sound a lot (in fact it isn’t with this inflation) but it is a lot less exciting because virtual 100k is around 60k in take home money.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Is this take home estimate or pre taxes ? imo it’s not prudent to estimate one‘s income in virtual dollars,
> because virtual salary over 100k might sound a lot (in fact it isn’t with this inflation) but it is a lot less exciting because virtual 100k is around 60k in take home money.


Of course from the sunshine list (are you familiar with it?), it's pre-tax. Alot of places when public sector posts to world, don't mention post-tax. His wife works as a CPA. I actually found out by accident she and I were both working in the national headquarters office for same big global accounting and tax firm. But on different floors, in different depts. She was just starting her career.

Do you have children? Just askin' if this is being factored for yourself on big move to U.S.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

jlunfirst said:


> being factored for yourself on big move to U.S.


The move won’t happen overnight, I don’t like to act on impulse. I plan and prepare every single step well ahead.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Since I do hang out at American dominant forum of people who generally try to care about their health and fitness. In today's comments about retirement, from a guy and wife with 3 grown children. They recently moved from Nebraska to Arizona and got full time jobs.










Below she is my age @63, single and working as a property manager for several 55+retirement residential bldgs. in Michigan. She lives in her own condo:








Another great guy, with wife where she is now experiencing some health problems. They live in Maryland:








Below, he is a CPA and lived only 30 km. from international border, in NY. He has some major heart problems.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

If medical coverage in the USA was nearly as bad as it sounds we would see herds of Americans trying to get into Canada to benefit from Canadian “supreme health insurance“.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

All of the above are Americans who must have find ways to get their employer cover their health care insurance/costs. Otherwise, they can't afford it themselves. They just CAN'T. 
You need to be wealthy as an American to get health care fast and best care. This is the message I've gotten repeatedly over the years, with these ordinary Americans from all over their country

We're forgetting some poorer Americans simply just don't even go to the doctor...at all, because they can't afford it. 

True where I work now, I do know employees who are engineering their retirement date, so that they can have their surgeries, expensive dental care covered now/before they retire. But honestly, I think alot of Canadians aren't over maneouvring their retirement except maybe dental costs.

Of course, if one is young, alot of us never cared much about health care at the time.

My comments are for only participants here who continuously think it's wonderful south of us.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Ukrainiandude said:


> If medical coverage in the USA was nearly as bad as it sounds we would see herds of Americans trying to get into Canada to benefit from Canadian “supreme health insurance“.


Our challenge is the wait lines. Everybody wants top tier surgery in the U.S. Then pay for it. Alot of money. 

Oh yea: You might too innocent, younger and don't have children or family members who have had cancer and other major health problems. I have a 1 yr. old great-niece who has harelip and mild cleft palate development. So she will require surgery next yr. on her entire jaw, lower face, etc...at Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto. The parents have been in and out of hospital with the child. The baby spent several months in the hospital as a newborn. She will probably need 2nd surgery later in life.

This is after their lst child...was diagnosed with brain cancer @ 1 yr. old. Several times in hospital for stays of several months, medical specialists, etc. My sister, a receptionist saw them several times / month. Child died at 3 yrs. old and did become developmentally disabled. 

I think the costs were some drugs, a wheelchair-like child buggy, etc. That's all.

My father died from prostate cancer...he saw a number specialists, had treatments. He had a high quality of life for 7 yrs. before administered chemo in final 4 months of his life. This was deliberate because chemo is toxic and too powerful on an aging body. He died in pallative care in St. Michael's Hospital. No, there weren't costs.

For Canada: Towards latter stage in life, it's better to live in a bigger city with a teaching acute care hospital. Save yourself all the transportation and hotel costs. I met a woman in Vancouver who flew down herself for breast cancer treatment. She lived in northern BC --Fort St. John. She had to stay in hotel.

Why don't you ask someone how much it costs to deliver a baby in a U.S. hospital? After all, that definitely is not a situation that should happen often at home.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Where are they looking for healthcare insurance?
I pay for healthcare insurance, dental, social security, taxes, and all of that works out to 28% of gross income. 
And income is a bit above national average.

There is many people who simply choose not to get insured - same way as those who had no flood insurance in Houston during Harvey and wanted a bailout. They simply underestimated risk and chose not to get insured, saving money until there was a need (and then saving money overall since they got bailed out)


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> I pay for healthcare insurance, dental, social security, taxes, and all of that works out to 28% of gross income.
> And income is a bit above national average.


In Canada I pay extended health insurance, group insurance, union dues, taxes, ccp, ei, pension and all of that works out to 41.5% of gross income.
And income is 40% above national average.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

damian13ster said:


> Where are they looking for healthcare insurance?
> I pay for healthcare insurance, dental, social security, taxes, and all of that works out to 28% of gross income.
> And income is a bit above national average.
> 
> There is many people who simply choose not to get insured - same way as those who had no flood insurance in Houston during Harvey and wanted a bailout. They simply underestimated risk and chose not to get insured, saving money until there was a need (and then saving money overall since they got bailed out)


My family members don't have extra health care insurance, damian in the examples I gave above. They are all Canadians. It *IS* our Canadian public health insurance and care system. The last for cleft palate is a situation...NOW. I'm not making up any of this.

There are certain things do cost. An ambulance ride is not free under our regular public health care system. My $500.00 deductible from plan covered it. Probably on top of being an out of province patient. Physiotherapy, dental work, custom orthotics not covered by our public health care.

I will affirm this personal experience:

I had a concussion and bike collision in VAncvouer a few yrs. ago. I was/am an Albertan resident. So I did have my employer extended health care insurance which probably allowed me to stay overnight in emergency ward along with 15 other patients in semi-privacy. I had an MRI, drug drip which I think was related pain killer. I was examined by a neurosurgical medial intern before release. I did not receive any other bill for out of pocket costs.

Then I had to have doctor visits every 2 wks. with family doctor to check on my progress. About a total of 6 doctor visits. That part was completely part of our public health system.
I was on medical/disabilty leave for 5 months because I was dizzy, etc. I had to learn to walk again during the lst wk. post accident.

Never take your good health for granted. I am in excellent shape in my age bracket. Every single Canadian close friend and family member I've known in past 40 years, experiences at least 1 major injury/condition during their working life where they can't work or are partially disabled for a few wks. These are family members and good friends who are not overweight, eat well and try to keep reasonably health. They have no allergies, not diabetic, no pre-conditions. I'm referring to a circle of 30 people that I know personally.

We are all mortal and human.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

I'm intrigued the amount of effort, struggles that American members where I've hung out for past few years, with their private insurers. And I've heard it direct from CAnadian employees who worked in the U.S. for a few years and returned. That's part the U.S.'s cost ...it's all about money with private insurers. Very simple.

I knew a guy who was a nurse in Seattle and then switched jobs there. Anyway he was paying $300.00US monthly US health care premiums (20 yrs. ago), just to be in his employer's plan. He returned to Vancouver, partially for personal reasons. He is single and no children.

The Michigan woman has life long eczema. Then she has another terrible rash from unknown source for a month. She didn't want to visit an allergist becuase the visit would cost her $400.00. She has some sort employer's plan but probably not extensive. She is also single and no children.


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

If I was self insuring, it is likely I would have better coverage and a lower deductible, than if I was single. Perhaps my thinking is atypical. Very subjective but I do not hear much grumbling from my US relatives that have children but I certainly do from those who are DINKs or single.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

This is was in Jan. 2022 from Michigan single patient:










Below from a woman in her 50's a mountain biker. She's had multiple sclerosis for last 15-20 yrs.Her hubby is a full time nurse. It is her that is commenting about the U.S. health care system. Her cost discussion is on the MRI. She lives in Oregon.

Come on folks, these are college educated American folks who aren't clueless and read. This MS woman, also cashed some FANG stocks so that she and hubby could build their home this year. Yes, this is very recent info. Despite their "wealth", she still is very careful when /how to use their health care system despite having private insurance.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Well, I live there. So do my coworkers. One that has serious health issues and so does their son. 
The difference is - the kid feels bad so they go to a hospital and within 3h they get comprehensive testing started. 
I ask why go if it is most likely stomach bug (turned out to be gastrointestinal issues) - the answer: because it is all paid for and we prefer to be safe and careful. Can you imagine that in Canada? You would be waiting 72h in ER and then 8 months in line for testing in non-life threatening situations.
Deductible: 500USD per year. Co-pay, up to 1000USD per year. Knowing what plan he is on - he pays 34% of his gross income for all of insurance, taxes, social security, et al and has all 4 members of his family insured on his plan.

Your examples are people who decided to cheap out on their insurance plan so they can save 100$/month on choosing cheaper plan and then complaining when their risk didn't pay off.

Yes, you have a choice for insurance plan. If you choose to take more risks and save more money - you get worse service. If you choose better plan - you get better service. That's natural.

In Canada you pay significantly higher portion of the income for terrible service or don't get access to healthcare at all. And you can't opt out.

From healthcare perspective, if you select good plan, US is the better country for middle class and above. Canada is better country for unemployed and working poor.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Thx for the example. It's not clear how much the employer is paying for his family's plan.

This is the American thread.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

It is clear because when choosing health plan for next year I saw all the options that splits the payment and shows you how much you pay and how much the employer does.
If I remember correctly (could be 10% off) he pays around 210/month and his employer pays 210/month for a total of 420/month for his family plan.
As a comparison, I pay around 120/month and employer pays 120/month.
I chose higher deductible though

So his full coverage is around 5k per year. His effective tax rate (including mandatory contributions, insurance etc.) is still lower than his tax rate (including mandatory contributions) would be in majority of provinces in Canada.
Of course there is a salary under which fees would be higher for healthcare plan than tax rate in Canada, but that is fairly low and also doesn't take into account terrible healthcare you get in Canada (if you actually get it)

Ultimately, all it comes down to is choice. If your friends take a gamble on their health and it doesn't pay off - they have to pay up. If they pay more up front, then deductible will be low or 0


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

damian13ster said:


> It is clear because when choosing health plan for next year I saw all the options that splits the payment and shows you how much you pay and how much the employer does.
> If I remember correctly (could be 10% off) he pays around 210/month and his employer pays 210/month for a total of 420/month for his family plan.
> As a comparison, I pay around 120/month and employer pays 120/month.
> I chose higher deductible though
> ...


thx for the info.

So you're going to stay in U.S. permanently? That's what it sounds like. Since I am in a family of siblings and relatives in health care (2 physicians- 1 family and emergency medicine, 1 pediatrician 3 pharmacists (1 sister, 2 cousins), etc., my strongest advice:

Don't retire in a remote (romantic) area of Canada --unless you are willing to pay for transportation and hotel costs to get treatment at major research and acute care hospital with medical physician specialists. Canada is a huge country.

My 84 yr. ex nurse cyclist friend, had to visit a patient on Saltspring Island many years ago. He was spinal cord injured, permanently wheelchair bound and living solo. Not sure, if he had means to get other type of care or if he was just being incredibly stubborn to his detriment. For sure Saltspring is not the place. Rehabilitation medicine for spinal cord injured is only found in certain hospitals across Canada, most primarily in big cities. I worked in such a hospital (library) in Toronto for 3 yrs.

We've had great care damian. Yes, sometimes it's getting past the queues. Then it suggested if you have a family doctor, and it's a cold. Use them, not ER.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

No clue. This is simply comparison of medical and retirement systems between two countries.
There is over 200 countries in the world - where I feel like living in couple of years - I can't tell yet


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

damian13ster said:


> No clue. This is simply comparison of medical and retirement systems between two countries.
> There is over 200 countries in the world - where I feel like living in couple of years - I can't tell yet


I'm not interested in retiring in a country where I am completely disconnected from family and friends. And my family is in another province, with friends scattered across Canada. So it's not as if I live in a tight little enclave of everyone in same city.

Happy to travel/visit. Just not live anywhere permanently now but Canada. No, I don't feel "narrow" nor my background. My mother tongue is not even European. I did have an interview 2 decades ago, in California where I was flown over there. I probably wouldn't stayed there permanently but would have been an interesting experience. Now, interview, would be virtual.

Since that interview that didn't work out, I've had some amazingly different job experiences. Just so blessed and lucky. Some jobs changed parts of me / accentuated skills I didn't know I had.


----------



## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

Ukrainiandude said:


> If medical coverage in the USA was nearly as bad as it sounds we would see herds of Americans trying to get into Canada to benefit from Canadian “supreme health insurance“.


Not really ... there are a lot of Americans who I have met, including relatives who refuse to consider moving outside the US. IIRC, a recent study had 80% live within 100 miles of where they are born, with 60% within ten miles.

I know a few who came to Canada and have said they would never leave because of how much things like the cost to deal with medical issues. Insulin being one of them ... Search for cheaper medication takes U.S. caravan to Canadian birthplace of insulin

There are also a few dual citizens who have said similar. For co-worker, that his employer was changing employers five or more times a year (with different deductibles, paperwork and having to track which one to send the receipts to) is another important factor.


Don't forget there are misrepresentations of the two systems regularly printed. The Tampa Tribune published a Q&A that said years ago that I could not pick my doctor in Canada. It also claimed that the three week Christmas ban on elective surgery in Toronto was because of how bad the Canadian medical system was. Dad killed himself laughing as he worked in admitting for Toronto General when the Canadian system was private and there was a two week shutdown as no patient or doctor wanted at Christmas a procedure that could be delayed!!!








Why Americans Have Been Deceived About Canada's Health Care System


For decades, the health insurance industry has been scaring Americans about Canada's health care system. We hear from a whistleblower about his role in the disinformation campaign.




www.npr.org






Cheers


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

The net immigration numbers for US and Canada are hard to come by, but not impossible.
There is more Canadians living in US than Americans living in Canada.

Of course the numbers are skewed by mess of an immigration system that US has, making it hard to relocate permanently unless you decide to walk across the southern border


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Eclectic21 said:


> Not really ... there are a lot of Americans who I have met, including relatives who refuse to consider moving outside the US. IIRC, a recent study had 80% live within 100 miles of where they are born, with 60% within ten miles.





damian13ster said:


> The net immigration numbers for US and Canada are hard to come by, but not impossible.
> There is more Canadians living in US than Americans living in Canada.
> 
> Of course the numbers are skewed by mess of an immigration system that US has, making it hard to relocate permanently unless you decide to walk across the southern border


Anecdotally having travelled extensively throughout out the US, the 20% that reside 100 miles from their birthplace tend to have moved repeatedly to other states for employment opportunities or advancement. Unsurprisingly they also tend to live in bigger urban centres. Conversely most of the Americans that live here in Canada already have ties to the Maple Leaf. I know of a handful of people that have come to Canada from the US without family already here. 

I would be curious to see how the numbers would vary as a percentage of population. Ex. what percent of US residents are Canadian and vice versa. I imagine the number of Canucks south of the 49th would still be larger. Also, there are the Hollywood and Snowbird factors to consider.


----------



## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

damian13ster said:


> ... Of course the numbers are skewed by mess of an immigration system that US has ...


Don't forget that early in the 19th century, there was little hinderance to moving in either direction. Then the US in 1965 restricted Canadian immigrating while Canada waited until 1976 to enact similar restrictions.

1910 had the US counting 1.2 million residents born in Canada (about 1.3%). In 1911 Canada counting over 300K residents born in the US (about 4.1%). Over the next fifty years, 2.3 million Canadians moved to the US while 1.2 million moved to Canada.

The US restrictions cut the flow of Canadians to less than half. Until the Canadian restrictions were implemented, Canada was in the unusual situation of being net positive (i.e. more Americans moved to Canada than Canadians moved to US). The Vietnam war draft likely was a factor in this.

Canada's restrictions cut the flow of Americans by about two thirds.



https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/1990/demographics/p23-161.pdf




Canadians in the US as a percentage are described as of 1960 to be about 10%, dropping in 1990 to 4% and in 2019 down to less than 2%.









Canadian Immigrants in the United States


The United States and Canada share the world's longest land border and similar cultures. But Canadians account for a tiny and shrinking share of all U.S. immigrants. Canadian immigrants tend to have higher educations and be older than other immigrant groups. This Spotlight explores the history...




www.migrationpolicy.org






One source says one million Americans in Canada. If so, that would put the percentage at 2.8%.


Cheers

*PS*
The big influxes of Americans to Canada seem to be the 100K or so Loyalists during the revolutionary war. Over ten years, 240K are reported to have come to avoid the draft.


----------



## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

londoncalling said:


> ... Conversely most of the Americans that live here in Canada already have ties to the Maple Leaf. I know of a handful of people that have come to Canada from the US without family already here.


It's more like a 50/50 split for me ... not that I ask everyone I meet. 



londoncalling said:


> ... Ex. what percent of US residents are Canadian and vice versa. I imagine the number of Canucks south of the 49th would still be larger. Also, there are the Hollywood and Snowbird factors to consider.


The question is what does one base the percentage on.

Does a Canadian who is there for four months on vacation or working count? How about the thousands of nurses who cross to the US at Windsor for their work and then cross back?

Does the American class instructor count for a week, month or six months?

Do those who are in both countries for parts of the year count in each country?


Cheers


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Eclectic21 said:


> It's more like a 50/50 split for me ... not that I ask everyone I meet.
> 
> The question is what does one base the percentage on.


A wonderful example of how our personal experiences can skew our mindsets. Two individuals with very dissimilar results from our highly scientific research. 😜 

That is a great but impossible question to provide an answer to which everyone would agree. I concede the data from migrationpolicy.org to be much closer to reality than my own findings (for now)







 From a strictly numerical perspective I expected there to be more Canucks relocating south than Americans moving north.


----------



## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

For recent years, 2018 seems to have been around an exceptional time with more moving to Canada. But yes, most of the time, more move to the US.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/08/23/canada-us-immigration-data-republican-presidents/




Cheers


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

I'm not convinced many Americans know anything / much about Canada. So they wouldn't even think of Canada. Alot of people don't want to relocate very far...so don't even talk about another country, even if it's English-speaking also. Of course, it depends on their state, its size and economy.

THough the Internet provides so much more information about countries world-wide, it's matter if non-citizens/non-residents even know which major sources of news/information to read. I can envision alot of Americans not even trusting to read Canadian federal govn't information about residency, tax, our laws (ie. guns), etc.

We have to remember there is a much larger voice south of us, that doesn't believe /doesn't trust govn't ...at all. Zero. Not even basic stuff like property tax, etc. I'm not sympathetic for such folks, when the fire dept. is supposed to respond to their burning property, police, etc.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

For Canadian retirees that leave CAnada and live in U.S. permanently: perhaps it's already personal American connections there already that's a big draw plus. The other reason that helps a whole lot is: they have sufficient money to retire there and live there permanently. More money than average Canadians and I don't think this forum is representative of the majority. 

Of course, I know Canadian employees here in my organization, who have long-time vacation homes in Montana, Arizona, etc. ....because they earn decent salaries. Same thing, when I lived and worked in Ontario for Canadians I knew who went to Florida: They have money and retired from decent paying jobs.

They aren't working 4 decades full-time in restaurants, grocery stores..unless the rare one is savvy with a side hustle/investing.


----------



## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

jlunfirst said:


> I'm not convinced many Americans know anything / much about Canada. So they wouldn't even think of Canada ...


I can remember thinking the idea of Americans showing up at the Canadian border in July with skis was an urban myth when I was in high school.

Then my two sisters were hired at a tourist place in Niagara Falls, Canada. They complained that there were being asked several times a week, "we came from the US to ski - where's the snow?".

The time that had them the most puzzled was the couple who said they were from New York state!!!



Basically, from the Americans I have interacted with, there are pockets of people who are interested beyond US borders. For many, the attitude is that the US is the best so learning about anywhere else is a waste of time. This was somewhat the American who was insisting Greenland was a closer neighbour to the US than Canada.


Cheers


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I believe the bigger problem is two fold. People on both sides of the border who do not plan and save for retirement. Especially early retirement brought on through medical issues or layoffs/downsizing.

People are entering retirement with record amounts of consumer debt and mortgage exposure.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Eclectic21 said:


> I can remember thinking the idea of Americans showing up at the Canadian border in July with skis was an urban myth when I was in high school.
> 
> Then my two sisters were hired at a tourist place in Niagara Falls, Canada. They complained that there were being asked several times a week, "we came from the US to ski - where's the snow?".
> 
> ...


I heard another story of occasional person coming from Bellingham, WA to go skiing or expect snow in Vancouver....well you MIGHT get snow 100 km. north of VAncouver in Whistler, BC.

When I was in San Francisco 3 decades ago, a cousin asked me if Winnipeg was close to Toronto (which is where my mother and I came from at that time.) 

I totally agree that many even nice Americans, just aren't interested in spending much effort to learn about Canada. Certainly I don't get the impression it's in any mandatory school curriculum. The other forum where I hang out that's dominated by more open-minded Americans (even if some have guns), probably only 30% have even visited Canada. These are people mid 40's to 70's ...which is sufficient life experience. Less than 3 have actually been in more than 1 province.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

More payroll deductions in Canada. 
it is easier to fund your earlier retirement if you pay less in taxes isn’t it?

Canada Pension Plan premiums will go up by 7.3 per cent, which could cost up to $255 per person annually.

Employment Insurance premiums are set to increase by up to 5.2 per cent.
Higher payroll deductions
Canada Pension Plan (CPP) contributions and employment insurance (EI) premiums are increasing in 2023, meaning less take-home pay for Canadian workers.
The employee and employer CPP contribution rates will increase to 5.95 per cent in 2023 from 5.70 per cent in 2022, the Canada Revenue Agency announced in November.
That means the maximum employee contribution to the CPP plan for 2023 will be $3,754.45, up from $3,499.80 in 2022. 
In a separate notice, the federal government said that changes to employment insurance rates will result in workers paying a maximum annual EI premium of $1,002.45 in 2023, compared to $952.74 in 2022. 
The Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses says the CPP and EI contribution increases mean that every Canadian worker will see up to $305 less in annual take-home income next year.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Ukrainiandude said:


> More payroll deductions in Canada.
> it is easier to fund your earlier retirement if you pay less in taxes isn’t it?
> 
> Canada Pension Plan premiums will go up by 7.3 per cent, which could cost up to $255 per person annually.
> ...


I've been unemployed 3 different times over the last 40 yrs. Each period ranged from 3 to 18 months. I don't begrudge paying into EI. Like some folks here, I've personally have known people laid off permanently, in the oil and gas resizing in Calgary. Bad things can happen to good people.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

CPP rates are increasing. But...CPP payouts are also increasing.

I paid EI since I started working part time at 16. I was never unemployed.

Only took EI once and that was after I retired early when my position was eliminated at age. Even then I had to wait 23 months before I started to collect. And when I did it was subject to an incremental tax rate of 39% (Alberta).

I am very thankful and feel very fortunate that I was never in a position in my working life where I had to claim EI.

Never resented paying EI, CPP, or income tax for that matter. Just look around and see what we have in Canada compared to many other countries.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

ian said:


> Only took EI once and that was after I retired early when my position was eliminated at age. Even then I had to wait 23 months before I started to collect. And when I did it was subject to an incremental tax rate of 30% (Alberta).
> 
> I am very thankful and feel very fortunate that I was never in a position in my working life where I had to claim EI.
> 
> Never resented paying EI, CPP, or income tax for that matter. Just look around and see what we have in Canada compared to many other countries.


You must have had a severance payment which prevented from starting EI. I started EI after 4-5 wks. unemployed. I can't remember.

I never got severance at any time, since my unemployment each time, was due to personal decisions of relocating to a different Canadian city. Yes I've been a risk-taker....career-wise and finance-wise. Though at the time, I didn't see it that way since I did worry about finding next job.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

ian said:


> I paid EI


How can you get this sum back? Or it went down the drain?


ian said:


> Just look around and see what we have in Canada compared to many other countries.


Well roads are much worse compared to the USA or Europe. Infrastructure very undeveloped compared to China or Japan 
military is very weak compared to the big brother 
health care system very inefficient, someone who paid hundred thousand in taxes will get the same delayed (sometimes questionable quality) care as the person who paid zero taxes. 
Too sum up if I have a choice, I would not pay a dime for this management.


----------



## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

jlunfirst said:


> ... When I was in San Francisco 3 decades ago, a cousin asked me if Winnipeg was close to Toronto (which is where my mother and I came from at that time.)


I don't see that as a US thing though.

I have been asked by friends of my UK hosts if I was willing to drive to Vancouver from Hamilton to check on their friend.
Other friends when shown a map of the route to drive from Hamilton to the Tampa area estimated it was a four hour drive!!!


All this comparison reminds me of how LA stood out when I was on training courses. At courses for work in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Washington DC, San Franciso and Chicago - no one reacted when mentioning using the subway or metro.

In LA, by about the third bar on the second night in town, my co-worker and I were making a game of working into the conversation that we were using the metro. All were responding with "LA has a metro? Oh ya ... how is it? I have never ridden it."

Part of what we found funny was that the metro had been around just under thirty year.


The language use led to a misunderstanding.

My co-worker who is from Montreal wanted to take a different bus back from Rodeo Drive. When getting on, he asked the bus driver whether the route went past a subway station. The driver seemed to be familiar with the route yet took a long time to think about it. She said at a certain intersection, at stop x, get off, cross the street to catch bus ### and get off. The subway would be less than half a block away, on the west side of the street.

When we sat down, my co-worker said the instructions were too complicated and we should ride until we saw a metro station.

I said I was confused why he called it the subway when it is called a metro. It was also strange that someone so familiar with the route would have to take so long for a question that likely is asked.

I went to the front to ask the driver whether this route went past a metro station. She immediately named four metro stations this route would pass. She added "but then you will miss out on the subway and won't be able to get your sandwich!!!".

I found it hilarious that a guy from Montreal would use "subway" when LA uses "metro" and that the bus driver had to think so long to figure out a way for us to get a sandwich.


Cheers


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

So funny ...on mix-up metro vs. subway. But good to know!!


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)




----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

It often comes down to how much you keep versus how much you earn. Just think of the wasted after tax dollars that go out the door on consumer credit interest charges.


----------



## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

jlunfirst said:


> For Canadian retirees that leave CAnada and live in U.S. permanently: perhaps it's already personal American connections there already that's a big draw plus ...


I know far more snowbirds who rent/own in the US. Those moving there that I know are working types.




jlunfirst said:


> ... They aren't working 4 decades full-time in restaurants, grocery stores..unless the rare one is savvy with a side hustle/investing.


One of my co-workers at Coke in the '80's said he would only stop studying and take a job if it paid him eighty thousand a year. His long time, over the school year gig at Dominion grocery store paid more per than the union job at Coke.


Cheers


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Situations can be very different. One of my peers was a senior IT director responsible for a number of large US states in the NE. He was laid off at 55 in a restructure. His severance was about 30 percent of the amount that would be typical in Canada . Essentially the same position, same tenure, etc.

His big worry was not being terminated. It was the medical benefits. His wife was 53. She had cancer. Her medical bills for each of the two previous years were $1M USD. He anticipated that this would be the case for another 2 or 3 years.

His search was for a position with an employer that had the same gold standard med benefits as his previous employer. Position or salary was secondary. He told me that he had already started to transfer assets to his children two years ago and would continue to do so because he was concerned that med expenses could bankrupt him. He said that if he went bankrupt he would be subject to a 5 year 'lookback' period and was planning for that just in case.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

ian said:


> Situations can be very different. One of my peers was a senior IT director responsible for a number of large US states in the NE. He was laid off at 55 in a restructure. His severance was about 30 percent of the amount that would be typical in Canada . Essentially the same position, same tenure, etc.
> 
> His big worry was not being terminated. It was the medical benefits. His wife was 53. She had cancer. Her medical bills for each of the two previous years were $1M USD. He anticipated that this would be the case for another 2 or 3 years.
> 
> His search was for a position with an employer that had the same gold standard med benefits as his previous employer. Position or salary was secondary. He told me that he had already started to transfer assets to his children two years ago and would continue to do so because he was concerned that med expenses could bankrupt him. He said that if he went bankrupt he would be subject to a 5 year 'lookback' period and was planning for that just in case.


If one has understood key details from above case, was his wife's cancer treatment and care was covered by a U.S. private insurer's health care plan provided by the employer with her treatment @U.S. hospital?

Is he/family American or Canadian ex-pat?


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

jlunfirst said:


> If one has understood key details from above case, was his wife's cancer treatment and care was covered by a U.S. private insurer's health care plan provided by the employer with her treatment @U.S. hospital?
> 
> Is he/family American or Canadian ex-pat?


American. Heath care costs covered by his employer plan. Hospital, physician, pharmacy, tests. the lot. 

This was 12 years ago. There have been changes in US Healthcare since then. My understanding was that he was able to find employment, and thus coverage, within a year.

I remember him telling me at the time that medical costs were the number one cause of US personal bankruptcies at that time. No idea if this is so.

We have met many Americans during our retirement travels. Some of the those who retired early tell us that they pay anywhere from $1100 month for a single to $1700 or more for a couple. Again, I have no knowledge of how this works.

I did have US colleagues who wanted to retire early as we did, had the resources to do so in their mid to late fifties but were unwilling to do so because of the financial risk in no longer having employer provided medical coverage. Over the past few years we have met Americans in that age group who have told us the same thing.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

ian said:


> American. Heath care costs covered by his employer plan. Hospital, physician, pharmacy, tests. the lot.
> 
> This was 12 years ago. There have been changes in US Healthcare since then. My understanding was that he was able to find employment, and thus coverage, within a year.
> 
> ...


And as I have said, I participate daily on another Internet forum for cycling and other topics: dominated by *80% Americans ages 49-78 of which 90% are male....for the past 5 years and more. Well over 40 regular participants from all regions of U.S.. 

Only 4 Canadians (B.C., 2 Ontario and Alberta) are active participants. * Probably over 100 silent trollers.

These Americans who do read, try like us here to look after themselves. Though cycling, is the common base, we talk more about news, our lifestyles, habits, food (some incredible cooks, foodies), health of ourselves and loved ones, cost of bikes, equipment.....and specific health care costs, treatments they get. It is super interesting and fun. There are several forum members who really want to retire, but it is the health care privat insurance benefit they want to hang on with her employer. ie. Retirement at 67-70. We have some members who currrently have: cancer (leukemia of blood), skin cancer, multiple sclerosis, heart problems, etc. I have read complaints about being double, even triple billed or overlapping costs between 2 bills..that ordinary Americans must personally fight/waste alot of personal time resolving matters. Here's a 76 yr. member who has cancer, a comment he made in 2021. He lives in Pennsylvania. 

**********It's VERY well-known among many ordinary Americans they absolutely must eyeball their invoices and track it/keep copies. Because it's very costly and so easy to be double-billed, etc.











_David Cutler on trimming U.S. healthcare costs | Harvard Magazine_
_Warren Buffett called medical costs the “tapeworm of American economic competitiveness.” Oncologists have invented a term, “financial toxicity,” to consider along with biochemical toxicity in deciding on the appropriate treatment._

Oncology is the study of cancer. So that supports your friends' desperate hunt for a employer private health care plan to cover his wife's cancer. And cancer is common. There's alot on "Net. I think it's more useful to look at articles what Americans have to pay out of pocket monthly premium just to be insured.. I agree there's great variation.

I know of some Canadians who lived and worked in the U.S. for a few years. They complained the headaches of arguing with insurer over the bills. It is every single itemized amount which ordinary layperson wouldn't necessarily decipher which presents potential for price gouging, masking, etc.

Of course, U.S. doctors would get paid alot more. Their system allows it. 

As I said in my family:

my Toronto father had prostate cancer. He was seen by specialists at Princess Margaret Cancer Hospital in Toronto, etc. Controlled for 6 yrs. until near the end. Chemo was last resort near the end because it is too powerful on a frail body of 85 yrs.
my great nephew had brain cancer. He had enough scans, treatments. But could not be saved. Died at 3 yrs. old. He was treated at Canada's top pediatric hospital: Hospital for Children in Toronto.

Above families were not bankrupted by specialist visits, diagnositics, etc. and doctor specialist appoints, etc. went on for several years.


----------



## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

ian said:


> ... I remember him telling me at the time that medical costs were the number one cause of US personal bankruptcies at that time. No idea if this is so.


A 2015 Harvard study put medical expenses as the cause for 62% of bankruptcies. 


Cheers


----------



## Calgary_Girl (Apr 20, 2011)

My MIL (an American) passed away in March 2022 from Ovarian and Breast cancer at the age of 70. I loved her but she was definitely not a planner and she died penniless and with no assets. She had no health insurance (which is probably why she avoided going to the doctor even when symptoms started) and we had to send her money for a couple of months to pay for chemo treatments until she could enroll in Medicaid for low income seniors. She passed fairly quickly and didn’t suffer for very long but towards the last couple of months there was talk about putting her in State-run hospice at a cost of a few thousand USD/month. Luckily it never came to that but I couldn’t help thinking in the back of mind “who is going to pay for this because she has no assets to sell?” 

My husband is American by birth but has had dual citizenship for the past 20 years. He is grateful that we don’t have to worry about medical bills in Canada.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Calgary_Girl said:


> My MIL (an American) passed away in March 2022 from Ovarian and Breast cancer at the age of 70. I loved her but she was definitely not a planner and she died penniless and with no assets. She had no health insurance (which is probably why she avoided going to the doctor even when symptoms started) and we had to send her money for a couple of months to pay for chemo treatments until she could enroll in Medicaid for low income seniors. She passed fairly quickly and didn’t suffer for very long but towards the last couple of months there was talk about putting her in State-run hospice at a cost of a few thousand USD/month. Luckily it never came to that but I couldn’t help thinking in the back of mind “who is going to pay for this because she has no assets to sell?”
> 
> My husband is American by birth but has had dual citizenship for the past 20 years. He is grateful that we don’t have to worry about medical bills in Canada.


I'm sorry to hear this sad story, CG.

Ukrainiandude should talk up with you folks...not us. We keep explaining the U.S. health care system works best for the wealthy. 

When I was at a conference in Maryland, an American woman, an educated professional and working for the U.S. federal govn't (National Institute of Science and Technology) told us (most were Americans, except me the only Canadian) when she was doing her master's in university, she didn't have any health insurance.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Calgary_Girl said:


> My MIL (an American) passed away in March 2022 from Ovarian and Breast cancer at the age of 70. I loved her but she was definitely not a planner and she died penniless and with no assets. She had no health insurance (which is probably why she avoided going to the doctor even when symptoms started) and we had to send her money for a couple of months to pay for chemo treatments until she could enroll in Medicaid for low income seniors. She passed fairly quickly and didn’t suffer for very long but towards the last couple of months there was talk about putting her in State-run hospice at a cost of a few thousand USD/month. Luckily it never came to that but I couldn’t help thinking in the back of mind “who is going to pay for this because she has no assets to sell?”
> 
> My husband is American by birth but has had dual citizenship for the past 20 years. He is grateful that we don’t have to worry about medical bills in Canada.


I have a long-time close friend and buddy I knew from university in Ontario. She is concerned about her early 30's niece who is married to American who has a long-term disease which he is unable to work. He tends to be bedridden. I don't know what this chronic disease is but he's had even when he was a student at Wilfred Laurier University in Waterloo when they were both students.

So they married in the U.S. and living there in Tennessee for past 5 years or so. My friend's sister, the mother and her hubby, are very concerned that she is "trapped" there. She has a work visa, which needs to be renewed. The couple subsists on her lower wages for crafts, etc. I'm not clear who, if anyone, is paying for his care or what. Innocently (to me) they were trying to apply for him to immigrate into CAnada.

Last month, I told my friend with an Internet link to Immigration Canada's web page, that all applicants must submit to a medical test, administered by a physician, as one of the immigration application requirements. And I said to her, he would not be priority for immigration to Canada, if he has overtly long-term disease that disables him from any future employment, requires medication, etc.


----------

