# I-phones



## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

How many of you cmfers use a iphone?im thinking of picking one up in september when the iphone 5 is going to be lauched,lots of questions i have.

Are they worth it?
does anyone have any faults with there iphone?
Once a iphone user always a iphone users ie:you would never go back?


Right now i still have a older phone with basics,finally my plan is expiring with my cell phone provider.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Are they worth it? That depends, what does it mean to you, to own an iPhone? 

I'm a technical user so I buy my phone for functionality, not flashiness. Although all smartphones are basically overpriced accessories these days.

Maybe the biggest fault of the iPhone is that it's too popular. I can't tell you how many people I know that had their iPhones lost or stolen.

Why not Windows 7 Mango? Lots of Mango handsets are coming out this September by Nokia, HTC, Fujitsu Toshiba, etc. Being an early adopter is fun, and at least you feel like you're not following the crowd.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

I had one a few years ago and sold it, because it costs too much money. (data + phone)


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I have an iPhone 4, my husband has a Google Nexus S. 

I work for a company that develops apps for the iPhone (and for iPads, tablets and Blackberries); I'm not leaving the world of smartphones (and tablets) anytime soon.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Nope. Costs too much money and the providers are sharks, increasing prices, making you sign one-sided contracts etc. I can do all that stuff on my home computer or home phone. I place no premium on this type of luxury item. In fact the only time I've ever used this type of device is when* I* was being paid to do so.

Life is expensive enough as it is.


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

MoneyGal, what is your opinion on Apple vs Android?


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

For phones? I told you my household split. There are wars in the office about which is best, and each side has their strong proponents. There are as many Androids as iPhones in the office.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

I have a smartphone but use a voice-only plan and if I want data I use WiFi when it's available. And to be honest most of the time I don't carry my phone with me at all; I think it's healthy to have "unavailable" time. Nine months with an umbilical cord was enough for me, I don't need another one now as an adult.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I have an iPhone and I love it. 

That said, what I like is that I can connect to the internet - I don't really care if it's an iPhone vs Droid vs whatever.

As for how worthwhile they are - it really depends on your usage.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

First of all my iPhone bill is $30/month taxes and random fees all in. Data only, no contract, and yes it does text/voice/internet/voicemail whatever you want. Second I bought an iPhone 3Gs for $500 and sold it for $400, they have very strong resale I know several people who sold for the price they paid. It is by far the best money I've ever spent on an electronic device, and by far the most useful. I found it so useful I paid full price for the iPhone 4 (because I change countries more than the weather and need an unlocked-quad band dual voltage phone) I hate contracts - once you sign one you have no negotiation leverage for 3 years. If you're going to pay $100/month for some crazy reason, you might as well take the contract though

Once an iPhone user always an iPhone user is not true at all - I would easily get something else if it was better for me. iPhone is still a smoother all-around platform and has the most developer app support and quality control. Android devices tend to be all about bigger/faster/better specs which does not always make sense when you want to save battery and have mobility etc. Apple has more restrictions in order to maintain quality but you can always get around them if you need to. Eventually though I imagine Android will be just as refined as iOS and have more developers so it may be wise to just start with Android now. You can still use all the Google services on iPhone so I find it the best of both worlds. It just comes down to personal preference, I don't think you'd regret either (just don't get a BB)


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Can't live without it, I do all my work from it.


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## rookie (Mar 19, 2010)

i have a phone that costs less than 20$. not that i can afford a better one. i usually pick up my mobile 4-5 times a week and a couple of those are for charging it...


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

No use for one, and it's overpriced. What does it do that a PC can't?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

nathan79 said:


> No use for one, and it's overpriced. What does it do that a PC can't?


Some people have ditched PC's for mobiles already, which is more likely moving forward. A PC can't fit in your pocket nor does it have a GPS and accelerometer etc. A smartphone however, can do about everything a PC does you can even connect a keyboard and screen if you wanted. My laptop is deadweight on the road now


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Let's see your smart phone calculate digits of pi! 

Serious gaming would be a challenge too, slightly less facetiously. 

I suppose eventually smart phones might just be thin clients for your computing resources out in the cloud. That day is not quite here. Maybe another 10 or 15 years.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Let's see your smart phone calculate digits of pi!


There are some pretty serious scientific and engineering calculators available for the iPhone and iPad. Even the iPhone's built-in simple calculator becomes a scientific calculator when you turn it on its side.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

GPS is admittedly useful though I already have a stand-alone unit.

I have a very basic cell phone for talk and text. Some days I don't even turn it on.

I could certainly never replace my PC with a smart phone, mainly due to the fact that I need a lot of processing power. As for portability, I'm rarely away from a PC for long enough that I miss the connectivity.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

nathan79 said:


> I could certainly never replace my PC with a smart phone, mainly due to the fact that I need a lot of processing power.


The processing power of a modern smartphone like the iPhone or Android is pretty close to the processing power you could find in a PC just a few years ago; I think mode can chip in here on the specs, but the processors in smartphones are a lot more powerful than you'd think.

I have a hard time dealing with the small screen on an iPhone, but my iPad is becoming my laptop replacement and so far it has passed the test. I may get a small wireless keyboard to making typing faster/easier but the onscreen keyboard works well enough except for typing long documents.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

nathan79 said:


> I could certainly never replace my PC with a smart phone, mainly due to the fact that I need a lot of processing power. As for portability, I'm rarely away from a PC for long enough that I miss the connectivity.


I kind of doubt that. What did you do a few years ago when PC's were as slow as smartphones? The PC 8-core processors don't show much advantage even if you run every program on your PC at once. If you need such power, there will soon be cloud computing.

Most people don't need to be tied to a desk all day. Sure there will always be PCs, but more people will be better served by smartphones imo. For example you can have a cheap old PC with all your music/photos/data stored on it, and you can control/access it all on a smartphone anywhere in the house, or just anywhere online. So now, once the cloud is mainstream, how many people need that cheap old PC anymore?


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## rookie (Mar 19, 2010)

well its different strokes for different folks. smartphones already have dual cores and are moving towards quads. so not doubt about processing power. but if u are stuck in front of a PC all day and have a phone at ur desk, there is no real need for another PC in ur pocket. one thing a smart can never ever beat a PC on is the comfort of a keypad and a big viewing screen.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

rookie said:


> one thing a smart can never ever beat a PC on is the comfort of a keypad and a big viewing screen.


As you approach your desk the BT keyboard and peripherals of choice connect to your smartphone automatically. You plug in the screen

Voilà

A more realistic situation would be you sit down on the couch comfortably, call up a file to your TV from your smartphone and pick up the BT keyboard.

There is always a need for PC they just don't have to be the primary device anymore.


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## Elbyron (Apr 3, 2009)

The newest smartphones are just now beginning to get dual-core processors, a technology that appeared on the PC market in 2006 (so 5 years behind). However, they are now considerably better than the original dual-core processors, being smaller, more efficient, and using less power. 
I've found that since getting my smartphone (Android), I've been using my PC a lot less - especially when it comes to browsing the internet. The primary role of my PC is now gaming, which I don't do a lot of these days, so it mostly just goes unused. I agree with Brad about obsoleting the laptop: there's only a few advantages that a laptop has over a smartphone, but they don't make up for the fact that a smartphone can fit in your pocket!

I think the Android system is better than iPhone, but both have their pros and cons. Both have way more apps than blackberries or Windows phones, and I think Android has more good free apps than iPhone does, but of course that all depends on what I consider to be "good". You get a lot more customizability with Android, but most importantly, you get a much faster web browser. A recent study showed that the iPhone's browser was 52% slower than Android when tested with loading of real web sites (not silly benchmark stats). But there's one huge feature missing in all iPhones: lack of support for AWS networks - and that means you can't use them with the new discount providers. With Mobilicity and Wind offering unlimited talk, texting, and data for just $35 (or $26.50 with Mobilicity's multi-month discount), there's a lot of incentive to switch to them. Since Apple refuses to add AWS support, you can't have an iPhone with these great rates, and therefore, in my opinion, getting an iPhone is NOT WORTH IT, but Andriod is.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

The new version of Apple's iOS, which will be available in a few months, will allow iPhones and iPads to be "PC free." They won't need to sync to a PC for anything and can stand alone as their own devices. This is the first step toward them becoming PC replacements. For the iPad, you can use a bluetooth keyboard now and hook the iPad to a computer monitor to use it like a regular PC; I've tried it and it works well...I've also used it to watch movies on the larger screen of my monitor (it will also connect to HD TV).


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

brad said:


> There are some pretty serious scientific and engineering calculators available for the iPhone and iPad. Even the iPhone's built-in simple calculator becomes a scientific calculator when you turn it on its side.


How many millions of digits can it calculate in an hour? A desktop PC would blow the doors off in this test. Not the most practical application, of course. My point being that raw computational power is still a significant difference. Not to mention that smartphones cry (and suck their battery dry) when doing anything computationally intensive.


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## Charlie (May 20, 2011)

I have a blackberry, which is great for email.

I find the teenie screen maddening for internet. So I only use it for a couple of sites -- weather, headlines, and twitter (for which i'm not registered -- but I do check in on a couple of people frequently). Any site not formatted for mobile is too bothersome for me to read.

I think I'm way behind the curve. (which coincidentally is my blackberry model). These 'smart' phones are certainly the future. Pretty amazing capabilities. I just need to learn how to use them...


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

nathan79 said:


> No use for one, and it's overpriced. What does it do that a PC can't?


Fit in your pocket? Nobody will realize how much a smartphone can change the way you do things until they try it for a few weeks.


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

andrewf said:


> How many millions of digits can it calculate in an hour? A desktop PC would blow the doors off in this test. Not the most practical application, of course. My point being that raw computational power is still a significant difference. Not to mention that smartphones cry (and suck their battery dry) when doing anything computationally intensive.


That's not what need smartphones for though. The vast majority of people use it to check their e-mail, browse the web and access a few of their apps while they're on the road. A phone isn't as powerful as a computer, but a computer isn't as streamlined and accessible as a phone. They address entirely different markets and needs, so comparing them is a useless exercise.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I agree. I'm saying that most people probably aren't ready to toss their PCs just yet. Smart phones are handy, but they have serious drawbacks.


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I agree. I'm saying that most people probably aren't ready to toss their PCs just yet. Smart phones are handy, but they have serious drawbacks.


I agree, but most people do not need to calculate numbers to 1000s of digits or do anything requiring too much processing power. Think about what most people do on their computers - music, youtube, facebook, and simple productivity exercises involving word/excel/powerpoint. A smartphone is capable of handling that, with the only drawback being screen size. Tablets have very good processing power and solve the problem of screen size. They could probably replace traditional computers for a good chunk of people today. This is actually being evidenced by the explosive growth of tablets and stagnation of PC growth.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

All of this presumes everybody wants to be mobile and to have their devices be mobile. Based on how dangerous drivers have become, I also think it's a bad idea to invent more devices that could further distract motorists. 

I also do not wish to pay for expensive connections and bogus plans. My internet costs right now are under control and provide for the operation of my PC, which like my telephone, is used in the safety and privacy of my home. My pockets are already full of keys, wallet, pen/paper and everything else. I don't need more expensive ewaste junk. I didn't buy palm pilots and I won't be buying these.

All this stuff represents an environmental catastrophe.


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

the-royal-mail said:


> All of this presumes everybody wants to be mobile and to have their devices be mobile. Based on how dangerous drivers have become, I also think it's a bad idea to invent more devices that could further distract motorists.
> 
> I also do not wish to pay for expensive connections and bogus plans. My internet costs right now are under control and provide for the operation of my PC, which like my telephone, is used in the safety and privacy of my home. My pockets are already full of keys, wallet, pen/paper and everything else. I don't need more expensive ewaste junk. I didn't buy palm pilots and I won't be buying these.
> 
> All this stuff represents an environmental catastrophe.


But someone who has a phone and no car (I'm assuming you have a car, may be wrong) would likely be far more environmentally responsible than you. Individual preferences will vary, but the trend is definitely moving towards mobility. Just like landline telephones turned into cordless phones and cell phones, wired internet has moved to wi-fi and now mobile internet. Anything can be dangerous if used improperly - I don't think that's a good excuse to not innovate and push the boundaries. It's human nature.


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## MoneyMaker (Jun 1, 2009)

i love my iphone... i find myself using my PC less and less out of the workplace..


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Thank-you for the insights and comments re:smartphones.

I think im favouring the i-phone,i know alot of people that have them and they all love theirs.

Seems to me apple is the king of quality,i know thats debatable.

I was also reading apple may surpass exxon as the worlds biggest company,and it has a legit chance of becoming histories first ever trillion dollar company(market cap)......i wonder if its smarter to buy appl stock.

This is abit of course but anybody think appl stock will be +450 a share at the end of the yr,hey royal maybe you should buy the stock instead?lol


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

donald said:


> Seems to me apple is the king of quality,i know thats debatable.


I have owned Apple products since the mid-1980s and I have to say that Apple's quality control is in fact very spotty. All but one of the Macs I've owned either came with hardware problems out of the box or developed problems within the first two years. Some of the problems were so glaring that it's clear there was no QA at the factory: a laptop whose lid wouldn't stay latched shut, for example; another laptop whose keys weren't attached properly and fell out.

My current MacBook Pro, which I bought in 2008, is the only Mac I've owned that hasn't given me a problem. I've also had no problems with my two iPods (a classic and an iPod Touch) or my iPad, so maybe Apple's doing better in this regard now.

As for stock, personally I wouldn't buy Apple stock (but then again I don't buy any single-company stocks), at least not now. The time to buy will be after the next big dip in price, e.g., if bad news is announced about Steve Jobs's health. I'm optimistic about Apple's post-Jobs future, although I am pretty sure Android will quickly surpass the iPhone as the more popular platform if it hasn't done so already.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Ya,im so tempted to step out and get apple stock thou,you think andriod has already surpassed them?

The thing i keep reading over and over again is apples corporate culture is unmatched in terms of the best and brightest seek out employment with the company,is this true you think?

The creativity and Iq power @ apple is very high.
I wonder if apple is going to stand the test of time,is steve jobs really the driving force?Is most of there products steve jobs brian child?Is he what greatzky was in edmonton in the 80s?

I cant imagine he carries that much weight...maybe he does thou.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I was looking @ standards and poor,if you invested 10k in 2006 by january 2011 that 10k would amount to 55k today,that was what apple was trading at in january so now it might be more like 70k.

I wonder if there still going to grow,or if most growth is behind them already.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

andrewf said:


> How many millions of digits can it calculate in an hour? A desktop PC would blow the doors off in this test. Not the most practical application, of course. My point being that raw computational power is still a significant difference. Not to mention that smartphones cry (and suck their battery dry) when doing anything computationally intensive.


*CLOUD COMPUTING* Google it. Input crazy MatLab formula into smartphone - many computers in cloud go to work in harmony - smartphone displays end results without sweating a drop..



the-royal-mail said:


> All of this presumes everybody wants to be mobile and to have their devices be mobile. Based on how dangerous drivers have become, I also think it's a bad idea to invent more devices that could further distract motorists.
> 
> All this stuff represents an environmental catastrophe.


We've gone over this a million times and I agree in general but it doesn't apply to iPhones. Smartphones are less wasteful than a PC and iPhones are less wasteful than any electronics out there imo. I don't know of any iPhones thrown out to date, you'd obviously give it to someone for gaming or at least the iPod etc. They are all being reused over and over and over, just look at craigslist/ebay etc. If iPhones are ewaste, so is everything else so you might as well move out of civilization now

As for brad's anecdotes on Apple quality I don't doubt it, but if you compare to Android devices the iPhones are made of high quality material and work at a slightly higher quality by the nature of a closed system (software designed for only 1 device and software that goes through quality control acceptance) I don't know of any broken iPhones that weren't dropped very very hard. For laptops according to warranty stats Sony does make the most reliable laptops ahead of Apple.


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

brad said:


> I have owned Apple products since the mid-1980s and I have to say that Apple's quality control is in fact very spotty. All but one of the Macs I've owned either came with hardware problems out of the box or developed problems within the first two years. Some of the problems were so glaring that it's clear there was no QA at the factory: a laptop whose lid wouldn't stay latched shut, for example; another laptop whose keys weren't attached properly and fell out.
> 
> My current MacBook Pro, which I bought in 2008, is the only Mac I've owned that hasn't given me a problem. I've also had no problems with my two iPods (a classic and an iPod Touch) or my iPad, so maybe Apple's doing better in this regard now.
> 
> As for stock, personally I wouldn't buy Apple stock (but then again I don't buy any single-company stocks), at least not now. *The time to buy will be after the next big dip in price*, e.g., if bad news is announced about Steve Jobs's health. I'm optimistic about Apple's post-Jobs future, although I am pretty sure Android will quickly surpass the iPhone as the more popular platform if it hasn't done so already.


You said this $60-70 ago...I now have a good buffer in my shares for any momentary downturn. Apple is in fact very undervalued by an endless amount of analysis. Take a look at the site below for some interesting approaches:

www.asymco.com

Android may surpass in terms of market share, but Apple currently making *2/3 of the profits of the entire mobile phone industry* and growing. As an investor I look at the bottom line. Apple has also successfully litigated HTC regarding Android-related patents, and is targeting Samsung next. That could be two huge Android vendors either eliminated or paying Apple huge licensing fees. Also consider Google and China aren't exactly best buddies, and China is the next area of massive growth in the industry.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

One thing too,apple has got a HUGE free cash flow,apple has more money than some countries have in gdp,thats what ought to scare the **** out of there competitors!nobody can hold a candle,they are so flushed!!.

Going forward thats where i think they have a moat thats almost impossiable to penetrate!Its hard to find problems with apple across the board.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Google and Microsoft also have large cash piles. Cash is not really a strategic asset in tech.

I would not be bragging, as an Apple shareholder, about how much unproductive cash the company was hoarding on its balance sheet. That is a massive drag on returns.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

With cash you have lots of options and lots of flexibility. Cash that isn't at risk of erosion by volatile stock markets is very productive in my mind.

I'm still not buying any of their junk/ewaste though. Looks like there a lot of hamsters caught in their planned-obscolescene consumer wheel. Not me.

However, if they had to pay the environmental cost of all their stuff that ends up in landfills and adding disposal e-waste expense, I don't think they would be sitting so pretty then.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I hear you andrew.Came across this today released 14hrs ago through the business wire_After the us treasury released financial figures regarding the possessions of the us federal government,apple inc reserve of cash officially surpassed the cash reserve held by the us government which numbered @ approximently 73.7 billion while apple inc held 76.4 billion garnered from its massive sales.

How can you ignore that! Microsoft and google are 30-40 billion below apple inc.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Pretty scary if you ask me when a corporation has more reserve than there own government!!!.


Steve jobs is now what john d rockerfeller was in his day with standard oil.It cant be good when apple inc is that powerful,maybe obama and the boys of congress should talk to apple...


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

If Apple doesn't start deploying that cash, holding AAPL stock is eventually going to asymptotically approach owning a money market fund. I'm not a fan of companies sitting on giant piles of cash earning 1%, all while tied to their management discretion and risk of loss.


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Google and Microsoft also have large cash piles. Cash is not really a strategic asset in tech.
> 
> I would not be bragging, as an Apple shareholder, about how much unproductive cash the company was hoarding on its balance sheet. That is a massive drag on returns.


This is a common complaint about Apple, and shows a lack of understanding of the company. Apple's cash is an extremely important asset. It allows them to make massive orders for key components, both driving down the unit cost as well as controlling the market. It allows them to make acquisitions that make sense to the company. The Nortel patents cost Apple around $2 billion - it's a drop in the bucket for them but wouldn't be for most companies. If we have another broad market crash, Apple has an opportunity to acquire companies that support their business model for pennies on the dollar - who else would be in that position? It will allow them to to a stock buyback if the stock suddenly drops precipitously due to Jobs' health or other unforeseen events. Finally, the amount of cash Apple has is highly correlated to the share price, more so than almost any other metric (R^2 of ~0.9). I'm all for Apple to continue hoarding cash and deploying it only as required. After all, I think they've proven that they are one of the best managed companies on the planet, so taking advice from incompetent analysts or people who think they know better than Apple is probably not a good idea. 

Another rebuttal to issuing dividends and the like is that Apple's cash is sitting all around the world. To issue dividends they would have to bring it back to the US and suffer a large tax hit. Would not be good overall. 

Regarding "massive drag on returns"...get real. Take a look at Apple's performance. Their cash position has a lot to do with it. The largest tech company on the planet is growing at 100% and you're complaining about a drag on returns?










If Apple continues from here with no growth, they will have around $150 billion within two years (assuming no dividends/acquisitions etc). Their share price if the trend in the above chart continues? $812. 

I don't mind cash...

Above chart is from www.asymco.com


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

They have $25 billion is short term and another $25 billion in long term holdings. The remaining $26 billion is not really accessible to the business like receivables, inventory and plant/equipment. All 3 classes will grow as the top line grows. Would you like them to be buying up other companies? That could attract antitrust attention, distracting them from focusing on their core business.


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

the-royal-mail said:


> With cash you have lots of options and lots of flexibility. Cash that isn't at risk of erosion by volatile stock markets is very productive in my mind.
> 
> I'm still not buying any of their junk/ewaste though. Looks like there a lot of hamsters caught in their planned-obscolescene consumer wheel. Not me.
> 
> However, if they had to pay the environmental cost of all their stuff that ends up in landfills and adding disposal e-waste expense, I don't think they would be sitting so pretty then.


Short of ceasing operations, Apple are doing their part environmentally. If every company had to pay for their "e-waste" Apple would actually have an even greater competitive advantage because they are among the industry leaders in environmental standards. The vast majority of their products are highly recyclable (glass, metal)

http://www.apple.com/environment/


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

According to Google Finance, at the end of June they had $28.4 billion in cash and cash equivalents. Another $11.47 billion in net receivables. They have another $47 billion in 'long term investments', in addition to plant and equipment. 

I don't think Apple needs to have $75 billion between cash and cash equivalents and 'long term investments' (let me guess, bonds with maturities >1 year). They need to it to get good prices on components? That is baseless spin. Saving it for an acquisition? What would they acquire? Apple is not in the habit of making large acquisitions, and large acquisitions tend to be value-destroying.

If Apple is such a great investment, and undervalued by the market, the management should put their money where their mouth is and buy back stock at these bargain basement prices. It would be a much better investment than paying a 50% premium for what, Netflix? And much, much better than sitting on US treasuries earning a negative real yield.


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

andrewf said:


> According to Google Finance, at the end of June they had $28.4 billion in cash and cash equivalents. Another $11.47 billion in net receivables. They have another $47 billion in 'long term investments', in addition to plant and equipment.
> 
> I don't think Apple needs to have $75 billion between cash and cash equivalents and 'long term investments' (let me guess, bonds with maturities >1 year). They need to it to get good prices on components? That is baseless spin. Saving it for an acquisition? What would they acquire? Apple is not in the habit of making large acquisitions, and large acquisitions tend to be value-destroying.
> 
> If Apple is such a great investment, and undervalued by the market, the management should put their money where their mouth is and buy back stock at these bargain basement prices. It would be a much better investment than paying a 50% premium for what, Netflix? And much, much better than sitting on US treasuries earning a negative real yield.


They don't need to have it. But every other company on earth would love to have it. What is baseless about cornering the component market? Why do you think Apple has such high margins, while other competitors struggle? Tablets and phones are generally priced around the same retail-wise.

http://t-gaap.com/2011/3/16/apple-corners-the-market-for-high-end-ipad-components?site_locale=en

While Apple is undervalued, a stock buyback should be reserved for a large sudden drop in price to bring it back up, not after a 25% run-up. The uncertainty around Steve Jobs is very real in the eyes of many shareholders and I would not be surprised at a large dip when he is no longer running the company. The possibility of another recession-like crash in the markets would be another opportunity. While most companies are too eager to spend cash or issue it as dividends, Apple is basically using it as a giant safety net. That is actually very reassuring for me as an investor, and I am more than happy with 100% growth...

I don't know why people are so gung-ho for dividends. I have my dividend stocks but they are stable income plays. Apple is a growth stock. Look at what happened to Microsoft since they started issuing dividends. Could they have made better use of their cash? Probably.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

GOB, that post has two glaring statistical faux-pas.

-That a linear regression has an R^2 of 0.9 is no proof of causation, as you imply.
-You cannot use a regression to extrapolate outside of domain of the independent variables.

Otherwise, you could draw a beautiful line to 2050 showing Apple being worth 80% of global GDP. And if all it needs to raise its share price is more cash in its coffers, they should be raising debt and equity like crazy. Why wait two years to have $150 billion in cash? They could raise as much in a week or two and get there overnight.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I do agree with you that their anticompetitive behaviour around component procurement practices should be drawing the attention of antitrust regulators.


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

andrewf said:


> GOB, that post has two glaring statistical faux-pas.
> 
> -That a linear regression has an R^2 of 0.9 is no proof of causation, as you imply.
> *-You cannot use a regression to extrapolate outside of domain of the independent variables.*
> ...


I agree that correlation is not causation, but I was pointing out that it seems to be the most correlated number. It may or may not mean something in the future, and will obviously not hold if they raise cash in other ways than pure earnings. You're deliberately misconstruing the meaning behind why I posted that. 

All in all, I have given several reasons why having a large amount of cash on hand is a good thing for a thriving company such as Apple and you have failed to provide much on the other side. What about when interest rates inevitably rise and they start making 4-5% on their cash? That could be $5 billion a year in pure risk-free profit - not a bad idea in my opinion. Your assertion that a tech hardware company doesn't need cash is rather naive, I think. You also glossed over the entire safety net issue which is a key reason why I invest heavily in Apple (and many others, I imagine). You seem to be a "what can you do for me now" type of investor while I look at the long term. A small dividend for such an explosive growth company means nothing to me and it would simply be reinvested losing tax along the way. We'll see how Apple does over the next few years. Nothing is for sure, but I'm quite confident in my position.

P.S. Not sure what you mean about the bold, as I imagine extrapolation is the whole point of establishing an accurate equation for established data points. I've used extrapolation in virtually all of my lab research to model future behavior/results...


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

I just have a generic Android smart phone it seems to do everything I need it to do.. The people I know with iphones all love them but I can't ever seeing myself relying so much on a phone in my day to day life as much as the people with the iphones seem too do. i guess it does say something of their capabilities


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

DanFo said:


> I just have a generic Android smart phone it seems to do everything I need it to do.. The people I know with iphones all love them but I can't ever seeing myself relying so much on a phone in my day to day life as much as the people with the iphones seem too do. i guess it does say something of their capabilities


That's pretty offensive. Maybe you're just a luddite?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

GOB said:


> That's pretty offensive. Maybe you're just a luddite?


+1

My abilities are just fine.. an iPhone only force multiplies my abilities to what no one could possibly do as efficiently without one

I laugh at all these people's stigmas against those who use an Apple product to a point they become exactly what they're against - people who shop based on brand


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

I had to look up Luddite.....Not sure what I said was very offensive just pointed out the iphone can do a lot (replace remotes, control your computer/garage doors etc) but I'm not against technology..it's just why would I shell out the extra money for an iphone to gain a bunch of features which I wouldn't use very much if at all and in a year or two the current model although probably still functional will be outdated. My android phone was free..still has gps/camera/internet which is about all I will use it for anyway


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Your phone was NOT free. You will pay for it a few times over.


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

let me put it this way......It cost me $200 less then the iphone would have on the same company plan


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

DanFo said:


> I had to look up Luddite.....Not sure what I said was very offensive just pointed out the iphone can do a lot (replace remotes, control your computer/garage doors etc) but I'm not against technology..it's just why would I shell out the extra money for an iphone to gain a bunch of features which I wouldn't use very much if at all and in a year or two the current model although probably still functional will be outdated. My android phone was free..still has gps/camera/internet which is about all I will use it for anyway


This part was offensive, implying that iPhone users are not intelligent enough to do things themselves and must rely on their phone (makes no sense, by the way) Perhaps you didn't mean it that way but it's certainly how it comes across:



DanFo said:


> I can't ever seeing myself relying so much on a phone in my day to day life as much as the people with the iphones seem too do. i guess it does say something of their capabilities


As for the free part, I paid $200 all-in for the iPhone 4. If I use it for the length of my three year contract, that's a grand total of under $6 per month. That's certainly a better use of my money than buying a Starbucks coffee or paying three times as much for name brand clothing, both of which offer very little if any improvement over alternative options.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> an iPhone only force multiplies my abilities to what no one could possibly do as efficiently without one


An iPhone is now a radioactive spider? When is the graphic novel coming out?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Steve Jobs is probably paying Steven King to keep the release date and details under wraps  Force multiplier is a military term for something that 'drastically multiplies the effectiveness of an item or group'


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

I should have worded that differently wasn't meant to imply that all or even only iphone users... just that I know so many smartphone users that keep all their data in the phones so when the battery dies or they can't find them they're (I won't say not capable) but inconvienienced...... but I agree with your point... for me personnally the iphone offers no advantages over any generic smartphone so why would I pay the extra money?


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

DanFo said:


> I should have worded that differently wasn't meant to imply that all or even only iphone users... just that I know so many smartphone users that keep all their data in the phones so when the battery dies or they can't find them they're (I won't say not capable) but inconvienienced...... but I agree with your point... for me personnally the iphone offers no advantages over any generic smartphone so why would I pay the extra money?


That's fine. In your case you shouldn't. But many people feel it's worth the small added expense and I don't think they should be looked down upon for that. To me, there are so many more useless things that people waste their money on (clothes, furniture, lavish houses, dining out every day etc etc.), but I don't think that they are less intelligent than me for doing so.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

My smartphone holds important backup data in my pocket in case my home computer is destroyed/stolen etc - it's synced by an app. Really everyone should have everything backed up in 2 physical locations (or in the cloud) but I haven't gone that far

For me that extra bit of money paid for itself several times over with all the devices it replaced or money it saved etc


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

GOB said:


> I agree that correlation is not causation, but I was pointing out that it seems to be the most correlated number. It may or may not mean something in the future, and will obviously not hold if they raise cash in other ways than pure earnings. You're deliberately misconstruing the meaning behind why I posted that.


Cash on the balance sheet won't increase shareholder value in and of itself. Glad we cleared that up.



> All in all, I have given several reasons why having a large amount of cash on hand is a good thing for a thriving company such as Apple and you have failed to provide much on the other side.


You made a point about having vast piles of cashing helping keep component costs down. How exactly does this work? Why do they need $70 billion for this and not the $15 billion they have in accounts payable? You asserted this without any rationale for why a company spinning out cash needs to hold onto it to negotiate good terms.



> What about when interest rates inevitably rise and they start making 4-5% on their cash? That could be $5 billion a year in pure risk-free profit - not a bad idea in my opinion.


I think if people wanted a money market fund, they could buy a money market fund. Wrapping a money market fund inside a risky technology business does not add value to a money market fund.



> Your assertion that a tech hardware company doesn't need cash is rather naive, I think.


When should they ever return cash to shareholders, in your book? I didn't say that tech companies don't need working capital. I said they don't need to hold vast sums beyond what could reasonably be expected to be needed in operating the business.



> You also glossed over the entire safety net issue which is a key reason why I invest heavily in Apple (and many others, I imagine).


If Apple is a well-run business, why do they need to hold onto $75 billion (and soon to be $150 billion) as a 'safety net'? Do the managers expect that they will make such a disastrous move that could harm the solvency of the company to the tune of $75 billion? That's a no-win question: either yes or no, and the answer should be to return the money to shareholders.



> A small dividend for such an explosive growth company means nothing to me and it would simply be reinvested losing tax along the way.


They could buy back 20% of the company's common shares. That is not a 'small dividend'. A share buyback would amplify returns for remaining shareholders, tax-free/tax-deferred.



> P.S. Not sure what you mean about the bold, as I imagine extrapolation is the whole point of establishing an accurate equation for established data points. I've used extrapolation in virtually all of my lab research to model future behavior/results...


A relationship that might appear linear in a part of the domain may not turn out to be linear outside the domain. An example is a sigmoidal function. If you fit a linear regression to the centre part of the function, you can get a high R value, and still be terribly wrong in drawing a straight line rising to infinity.










You can use a regression to develop a hypothesis of what the out of domain relationship will be, but you should not be confident that your hypothesis is necessarily correct. At least, don't bet any lives on it.


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Cash on the balance sheet won't increase shareholder value in and of itself. Glad we cleared that up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not going to reply to everything because it's clear we're going around in circles.

Component costs: They make extremely large purchases in the billions of dollars. If they had less cash on the books they may not be as confident in making these deals or have the influence on the bidders to lower their prices. Look at Warren Buffett and the no-brainer deals he made a couple of years back. It's because of his wealth and power that he was able to get those deals.

A well managed company is not immune to the whimsical nature of the stock market. You, me and anyone playing the markets should be aware of that. As I stated before, Apple is growing explosively, share price has appreciated 25% in a matter of weeks. Now is NOT the time to do a buyback. There are risks to Apple's market valuation that management cannot control - namely the broader markets and Jobs' health, or the public's perception of his health and its effect on the company. A buyback is not necessarily a sure-fire method of increasing shareholder value, either. The two tech companies that stand out as ones that regularly buy back their shares are CSCO and MSFT - how are they doing?

No disastrous internal move is necessary for there to be a time in the future where $75 billion of cash can be deployed with greater effectiveness than issuing a dividend or buying back shares at this point. I guess it depends on your investing philosophy - to me, Apple's cash offers current investors a lot of downside protection in an extremely volatile economic and political environment. Apple plays on the safer end with their cash - I'm ok with that 

Regarding the regression model, I agree and I am not projecting Apple to infinity but only a couple of years into the future. With the earnings growing as they are, I don't see an issue with this. At this stage, a linear model is probably the best fit for near-term projections. Do you disagree? I never said it was more than a hypothesis, or that it was sure thing. In fact, given Apple's fundamentals, one could postulate that if the relationship were to be broken it would break to the upside in terms of share price in the near future (on the left-hand side of the graph you posted).


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

If government ever gets around to closing those darned tax loopholes and make corporations pay what they ought to, full marginal tax rates, current share prices aren't justified because you'd have to add billions to liability. Policy decisions drive market direction more than market fundamentals.

Relatively speaking no one can argue that Apple is not succeeding.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

So Apple's shares are a worse investment than T-Bills, according to the management.

Is there a cash hoard that would make you clamour for a share buyback? If in 5 years, they had $300 billion in cash on their balance sheet, would you still be advocating that they must hold onto every dollar?

As far as Apple's valuation, no, I do not expect it to increase linearly, much less exponentially. Apple gained $120 billion in market cap in the last year. I don't expect it to be worth nearly a trillion dollars in 5 years, if that rate of valuation increase were to continue linearly. I don't invest in this space directly, so we'll see.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Also on the topic of Apple quality. Apple is pro at industrial design but suck at practical design. You don't need to look further than the connectors that commonly fray and break off the cable because there's no strain relief.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

But it's pretty! Isn't that what matters?


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Sure if you have no problem spending $80 for a new cord when it breaks


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Who pulls their cables that hard? Teach your kids some manners, or thank your parents for not teaching you? I've never frayed any cable, you must fray non-Apple ones as well? iPhone cables are pretty tough, and the brick lets you use the 1 cable to charge/sync into 110V/220V/computer/car without extra cables

$80? Like an HDMI cable, they can be found for dollars...


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

$80 http://store.apple.com/ca/product/MC556LL/B

Not necessarily, they usually use proprietary connectors on one end so you can't just use any cable. Even if you could use any cable, your setup looks ghetto'd and goes against at least one principal you bought their product to begin with - perception of good design.

Read the reviews on that MagSafe page, it's got a 2/5 and everyone is talking about the cable fraying.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

That's at the Mac store.... that's like getting your BMW serviced by BMW.. who does that?  This is capitalism the marketeers have to earn their keep

Google it. $30 USD = what $29 CAD. No brand is perfect, like I said I don't shop or expect any brand to be perfect like people seem to do.

Name any brand and I'll show you something stupid they've designed...


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

If you don't shop at the Apple store it's the same or even more expensive?

$80 + 10% discount http://www.compu2000.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=12436
$90 http://www.sigelectronics.com/Apple-i/Apple-Accessories/Apple-MacBook-Air-45W-MagSafe-Power-Adapter

Unless you're talking about one of the weird fakes you find on eBay/Amazon that will probably void your warranty if you plug them in


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Yes and if I work on my car it voids the warranty too right? That's what they want you to think anyways


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

As long as the fake matches the original chargers voltage it's fine, but how many people are competent enough to know that? Pretty few.

That's why Apple's a generally a good stock to own, but not generally a good brand to own.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Another example of where using the product as intended results in cable fraying


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

One thing to keep in mind is its just not apple inc hoarding cash,its all the majors in every sector thats thriving because there sales are coming from over seas and when converted into us dollar and the conditions of the us dollar there us revenue is multiplying @ a fast rate.

In the american business climate know company wants to move further and spend inside america because of the current situation at hand,the us government is forcing companies to frezze up!its just not conducive to spend right now in the uncertianty,if america was in a boom,government was stable,unemployment was functioning @ a nominal rate companies would free up there purse strings,its not just apple!look @ the lastest earnings of alot of companies crossing many sectors,the us majors are all hoarding,its the government there in thats the cause,thats my opinion.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm not a fan of Apple to be honest, but this thread is about iPhones and it doesn't mean crap if some of their cables fray. I've never heard of someone complain of a frayed iPhone cable

I buy product by product not brand and the iPhone is a good product imo. The fact that we've dug down to cables fraying on certain products is saying something about how high a pedestal you've put your expectations for the brand

Personally I rewire lamps and car wires etc etc all the time. Takes me less than 5 mins...


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I've never had a cable fray on me like that, so that is suggestive of poor design, or form over function.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

This is what happens when the people vote for ophrahs favorite!im not against obama but he is a main street president not a wall street president and this is what happens!No government should be weaker in reseverse than a corporation practising in there country,when that happens its a sign its slipping into a 2nd world country.

I hope obama heads the warning of the american bankers,they wrote a letter all signed,bank of a,jpm,wells fargo ect all telling the admin if they default america is fu8ked!


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> I'm not a fan of Apple


lol thanks for the full disclosure, you gotta admit you did sound like a hard core Apple apologist 

It happens with the iPhone/iPad/iPod USB sync cords too, but less common since the cords are stationary (only connected to charge overnight) unlike certain devices (mac laptops) you use while plugged in and regularly move the charger to x different outlets throughout the week to stay mobile

and yes I also admit to having over the top standards sometimes


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I've never had a cable fray on me like that, so that is suggestive of poor design, or form over function.


It's all starting to make sense now. If you are going to judge the quality of a company's products based on a couple of pictures (which anybody can product if they abuse the product enough) over consistent overall positive feedback from consumers (http://www.dailytech.com/Survey+Apple+Smokes+the+Competition+in+Quality+Reliability/article20280.htm) then it's clear you seem to have a personal vendetta against Apple. Wow, there are some pictures fo frayed cables on the internet, so clearly Apple has a major QC problem!

As for your question about at which point they should start giving their cash back to the shareholders, the answer is I don't care, as long as I continue to be rewarded with a rapidly increasing share price.

The fact that you don't invest in this space speaks volumes. Would it be at all possible that Apple, probably the most successful company of the last decade, may know more about their operations and how to effectively handle their cash than you? Think about it. I'd rather Apple earn money on their money than issue dividends just to have a few bandwagon investors jump on board. Dividends do not add real value to the company. 

Do you have a personal emergency fund? I hope you do. The bigger it is, the more secure you are. Why do people advocate personal savings yet want businesses to spend every penny of their earnings? In both cases, future income is expected, but **** happens.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Another pet peeve (personal experience):

If you want to get your iPhone contacts into anything else, you need to plug it in and sync with that annoying iTunes

IF you want to get your Android contacts into anything else, just go to Google.com/contacts -> Click export -> Done.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

GOB said:


> It's all starting to make sense now. If you are going to judge the quality of a company's products based on a couple of pictures (which anybody can product if they abuse the product enough) over consistent overall positive feedback from consumers (http://www.dailytech.com/Survey+Apple+Smokes+the+Competition+in+Quality+Reliability/article20280.htm) then it's clear you seem to have a personal vendetta against Apple.


Don't know if you read your own link but it's not a personal vandetta, there's always areas they need to work on if they want higher customer satisfaction. Wasn't Steve Jobs response to last years iPhone 4 antenna problem "you're holding it wrong"? Even the author of this article questions the survey's methodologies (perception of quality vs experience of quality).

Apple's only average scores were related to *the company's deftness at replacing failed notebook components*, *and *in two areas pertaining to *serious problems with the iPhone*, the latter perhaps stemming from the iPhone 4's well-publicized antenna issue that resulted in dropped calls for some users.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

For anyone else interested in investing in this space here's my top three worthwhile resources:

http://www.digitimes.com/ (Newsfeed for supply chain disruptions, inventories, popular vendors etc) 
http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/ (OmniVision (NASDAQ:OVTI) image sensors are Apple's favourite and are going into the iPhone 5, probably a $50 stock if the economy holds up this fall)
http://www.tuaw.com/ (Everything Apple)

If you're really serious about investing in the mobile/tech space you'd need access to the Taiwan exchange though.

Also I agree with GOBs point about dividends, dividends are for sleepy companies that forgot how to innovate. CSCO only issued them recently, succumbing to shareholder demand, otherwise they were going to dump the stock - no good reason to hold it anymore.


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

ddkay said:


> Don't know if you read your own link but it's not a personal vandetta, there's always areas they need to work on if they want higher customer satisfaction. Wasn't Steve Jobs response to last years iPhone 4 antenna problem "you're holding it wrong"? Even the author of this article questions the survey's methodologies (perception of quality vs experience of quality).
> 
> Apple's only average scores were related to *the company's deftness at replacing failed notebook components*, *and *in two areas pertaining to *serious problems with the iPhone*, the latter perhaps stemming from the iPhone 4's well-publicized antenna issue that resulted in dropped calls for some users.


The point is no product is perfect, especially in the tech field. When you produce millions upon millions of devices, there will be problems. A large part about satisfaction is the frequency of these problems and how well they are dealt with. Apple beats the competition on both counts. Using the excuse that people will give Apple good grades because they are "loyal" is bordering on ridiculous. Apple is growing so quickly that most consumers are relatively new and far from loyal. I would consider myself loyal to Apple, but only until they stop producing fantastic products. I certainly wouldn't give them a good score if I had terrible experiences with their products. You also need to question where this loyalty comes from? People are usually loyal to things that they've had a positive experience with, implying some sort of quality, wouldn't you think?


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

In other news, Foxxconn is replacing 1 million of its employees with robots by 2014. Suicides, who need 'em.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

GOB studies have been done by behavioural psychologists and neuroscientists, brand loyalty/fanatacism is a work of extremely effective marketing (and yes part of that is above average to excellent customer service) and akin to religion. To elaborate my last point in parenthesis, I would be less peeved if my cord frayed and the Apple service desk gave a free replacement if I brought in the original as proof. They do give free replacements of USB sync cords, but not the $80 laptop MagSafes. So depending what kind of customer you are, you may or may not experience the fate of paying for a new cable. Check out the book Buyology by Martin Lindstrom.


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

ddkay said:


> GOB studies have been done by behavioural psychologists and neuroscientists, brand loyalty/fanatacism is a work of extremely effective marketing and akin to religion. Check out the book Buyology by Martin Lindstrom.


What you are implying is that Apple can sit back on their laurels, not produce anything new and innovative and rake in money from "brand loyalty". Why don't they just do that then? It's a lot easier than continuously innovating and pushing the boundaries of the industry. Of course that has no impact on their success right?

On the other side of the fence, there are people so vehemently biased against Apple that they refuse to try any of their products and chalk up anybody using them as idiots or fanatics. 

Brand loyalty does not explain why Apple products are always ranked at or near best in class - keep in mind many of the entities would have bias towards non-Apple products e.g. PCMag

Innovation, quality products AND effective marketing have made Apple what it is today. Take any one of them out and it wouldn't be the same.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

GOB said:


> It's all starting to make sense now. If you are going to judge the quality of a company's products based on a couple of pictures (which anybody can product if they abuse the product enough) over consistent overall positive feedback from consumers (http://www.dailytech.com/Survey+Apple+Smokes+the+Competition+in+Quality+Reliability/article20280.htm) then it's clear you seem to have a personal vendetta against Apple. Wow, there are some pictures fo frayed cables on the internet, so clearly Apple has a major QC problem!
> 
> As for your question about at which point they should start giving their cash back to the shareholders, the answer is I don't care, as long as I continue to be rewarded with a rapidly increasing share price.
> 
> ...


A cable shouldn't fray like that. Leave it to you to blame my feelings about Apple rather than their design.

Does it speak volumes that I don't invest in that space? I hold primarily broad index ETFs. I own Apple, Google, RIM, etc. indirectly through VTI/XIU. I'm not a voting shareholder, so Apple is free to ignore me. 

Companies (and governments for that matter) are not people. If they were, Apple (and other tech companies like it) would be the equivalent of the crazy old granny with a mattress full of $5 bills. Chew on that! 

You're throwing up a strawman. I'm not saying that they should be returning to shareholders every dollar of their earnings. You are saying they should not return any money to shareholders, despite the fact they clearly have enough to meet their obligations and they have much more scheduled to roll in. I'm the voice of moderation here! You also keep throwing up the strawman of dividends, when I've always said they should be buying back shares. According to your nifty chart, their share price is going to be $800 in a year or two, so wouldn't they be crazy not to buy their own shares when they have a surfeit of cash?

It doesn't make much difference. I will watched bemusedly as Apple becomes a money market fund that happens to make phones.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)




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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

andrewf said:


> A cable shouldn't fray like that. Leave it to you to blame my feelings about Apple rather than their design.
> 
> Does it speak volumes that I don't invest in that space? I hold primarily broad index ETFs. I own Apple, Google, RIM, etc. indirectly through VTI/XIU. I'm not a voting shareholder, so Apple is free to ignore me.
> 
> ...


I can make any cable fray if I wanted it to. Your assumption about the quality of a company's products based on a couple of pictures of frayed cables is laughable.

I've mentioned enough reasons for having a lot of cash on hand. Who knows, maybe they will issue a buyback in the near future. There are reasons, especially in today's environment to err on the side of caution.

My main point is I don't think anybody is more qualified to make the right decisions about the company than Apple itself. Perhaps you can say that about any company, but Apple has put on a performance that has hardly ever be seen before. I trust that they have legitimate reasons for doing what they do. Do you not agree with this?

Keep mocking me about the $800 call. It was merely a projection based on a single chart. I never said it will happen, though I think there is a good chance of it.

If Apple can be a money market fund and keep growing as they do, I have absolutely no problem being invested in them.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Way to be ignoramus, cable fray is a publicly acknowledged issue, as seen in thousands of product reviews and Apple dedicating a support page to the topic http://support.apple.com/kb/TS1713?viewlocale=en_US



> Under continued use the cable may discolor and the rubber molding may become deformed. Another indication of possible strain relief is intermittent connectivity.


How about this, cleaning your power connector because there's dirt in between, seriously? Why? This is such terrible design, they have publicly acknowledged but don't bother to fix because it makes their products unique.


> To clean the DC plug on either the computer or the power adapter, disconnect the adapter from the wall outlet and/or remove the battery from the computer. Remove debris gently with a cotton swab or a soft bristle toothbrush, which provide the strength, flexibility, and precision for this task. Be careful not to get any cotton fibers stuck in the pin receptacle. You may use isopropyl alcohol to aid in cleaning the connectors as well. Be sure the connectors are dry before using the computer or adapter after cleaning.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

And hundreds of YouTube videos on how pathetic they are too. Look at this! You could start a fire with this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jOf4Beapkg

I'm not trying to bash Apple - I love my iPad, I loved my Mac Mini, and I loved my iPhone, but some of their stuff genuinely sucks.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

GOB said:


> I trust that they have legitimate reasons for doing what they do. Do you not agree with this?
> 
> [...]
> 
> If Apple can be a money market fund and keep growing as they do, I have absolutely no problem being invested in them.


Maybe, maybe not. I can't imagine what legitimate reason they need to keep even what they have in cash on hand, much less the projected doubling of that figure. I generally don't trust management blindly. Management does what is good for management. Usually this is also what is best for shareholders, but it is not necessarily so. Maybe this is Steve's empire building. Who knows. They sure aren't saying. When there is a divergence in what is best for management and what is best for shareholders, sparks fly.

Problem with the Apple Money Market Fund is that you have to buy the MMF if you want to buy Apple. I don't personally hold any MMFs, so I'm being forced to hold MMF through AAPL through VTI that I otherwise would not hold. And if they just pile up their cash hoard, eventually Apple becomes 50, 75% cash by value, etc., or they screw up big and put a lot of value at risk that could have been saved.

You mentioned having an emergency fund. They're great. You should have one. You shouldn't lend it to your friend in exchange for an IOU whenever he feels like giving it back to you, no matter how good with money he is. If you're going to have your capital in an emergency fund, it better be _your_ emergency fund, and not someone else's. You're taking equity risk for money market returns.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

A lot of tech giants are over capitalised, it's not really bragging rights as much as it is industry standard that comes with expectations of rapid growth and rare but large opportunities to capitalize. Though a lot of analysts covering Apple have said they only need less than half of what's on their books.

Jobs answered this question at a shareholders meeting last February http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aJgDQ606o_Lw

Feb. 25 (Bloomberg) -- Apple Inc. Chief Executive Officer Steve Jobs said he prefers holding on to the company’s cash hoard for potential acquisitions and “bold” investments, rather than paying dividends or buying back stock.

“We know if we need to acquire something -- a piece of the puzzle to make something big and bold -- we can write a check for it and not borrow a lot of money and put our whole company at risk,” Jobs said today at Apple’s shareholder meeting. “The cash in the bank gives us tremendous security and flexibility.”


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

ddkay, I hope that cartoon is supposed to be making fun of Gates but I'm not sure? The guy who barely innovated a thing he didn't copy from someone else? Recycle bin LOL did you see a Mac computer before Windows?

The fact that a cable design is the only straw we can pick on Apple speaks volumes for their material. If people used their plastic Android devices as much as Apple iPhones and iPods they'd surely wear out as well. All cables are susceptible to dirt give me a break. I still use my rugged waterproof Garmin outside for a reason, and the military is developing their own smartphones for the same reason. They're not built for that kind of dirt/water and abuse, unless you want them to cost more??


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

The cables are a design flaw, that could be completely prevented if they used a strain relief boot and made the cord a little thicker... The laptop I use now is made in China by a Chinese company (Lenovo), and I don't need to clean the power connector because there's crud inside or reset the pins because the pins are stuck. I don't need to unplug/plug it in a special way, and I don't get sparks flying when I use it in bed no matter how much pull pressure there is. Yes, this factored into my decision not to buy a Mac laptop. If I have to pay the "Apple premium" for last generation hardware, I have high expectations for product quality.

The only other physical issue with Apple hardware is spotty quality control. A few years ago 1st gen iPod Nano's batteries began overheating and exploding, iPhone 3GS were overheating and blowing up. This is obviously a little harder to control, but it's not an inherent design flaw limited to Apple products like the cable fray, it happens to every manufacturer and it's just a tragedy occuring from using bad battery suppliers.

Like I said, the cable fray happens to the USB sync cable on iPod/iPad/iPhone devices too, but it's less common because it's pretty uncommon to use the devices while they're plugged in. There's few situations that expose the USB cables to stress, the average person charges them overnight on the wall charger or beside their computer (almost completely stationary) and uses the devices wirelessly for 10 hours or so during the day.


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Maybe, maybe not. I can't imagine what legitimate reason they need to keep even what they have in cash on hand, much less the projected doubling of that figure. I generally don't trust management blindly. Management does what is good for management. Usually this is also what is best for shareholders, but it is not necessarily so. Maybe this is Steve's empire building. Who knows. They sure aren't saying. When there is a divergence in what is best for management and what is best for shareholders, sparks fly.
> 
> Problem with the Apple Money Market Fund is that you have to buy the MMF if you want to buy Apple. I don't personally hold any MMFs, so I'm being forced to hold MMF through AAPL through VTI that I otherwise would not hold. And if they just pile up their cash hoard, eventually Apple becomes 50, 75% cash by value, etc., or they screw up big and put a lot of value at risk that could have been saved.
> 
> You mentioned having an emergency fund. They're great. You should have one. You shouldn't lend it to your friend in exchange for an IOU whenever he feels like giving it back to you, no matter how good with money he is. If you're going to have your capital in an emergency fund, it better be _your_ emergency fund, and not someone else's. You're taking equity risk for money market returns.


Money market returns...funny stuff. Now you're just trolling. Any chart will tell you otherwise. Apple has made me a lot of money and will likely continue to do so. Greatest money market fund in history.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

The cash on Apple's sheets has been a drag on their shares, any serious investor would be concerned about it (and they have been, constantly asking about it at shareholder meetings). Travel Zoo or Baidu or Netflix or F5 Networks would have made you a lot of money too. The market price has less to do with fundamentals and more to do with central bank policy decisions that began after the dot-com bubble burst (super low interest rates and injecting QE every time the market looked distressed) so the market only went in one direction - up. The market acts like a drug addict, perking up every time Bernanke mentions the possibility of more QE. This is why there's been a two-tier recovery. That money had no velocity, it hasn't made its way to businesses that are readily spending by opening positions and hiring people, it's all stuck in the bubbly stock market and it's probably going to evaporate within the next few months if Bernanke has bad news (no QE3) at Jackson Hole.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

My goodness iPhone 3Gs's were blowing up and yet I used _a used one_ for years and sold it to someone who still uses it, and none of my friend's blew up either? How is it these bombs are still allowed on planes and in crowds? 

Apple products are under the microscope while there are way too many Android devices to scrutinize their design flaws in as much detail


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

mode3sour said:


> My goodness iPhone 3Gs's were blowing up and yet I used _a used one_ for years and sold it to someone who still uses it, and none of my friend's blew up either? How is it these bombs are still allowed on planes and in crowds?
> 
> Apple products are under the microscope while there are way too many Android devices to scrutinize their design flaws in as much detail


Exactly. Every company has problems with their products when made in such massive scale. People envious of Apple's success like to focus on their faults and dismiss things such as consistent top rankings in quality and service because fanatics are artificially giving them high marks. Yeah, great argument. 

http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/14/rim-recalls-at-least-900-faulty-blackberry-playbooks-here-are-t/

http://pocketnow.com/windows-phone/new-htc-7-trophy-screen-defect-reported-recall-planned

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2009/05/27/samsung-issues-jitterbug-recall/

http://www.portableplayersworld.com/view/101514/Suit_Takes_Aim_At_Microsoft_For_Zune_Defect

These took about one minute combined to find. Looks like Apple isn't the only tech company to make faulty products. What a surprise!


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I must be unique. I hold 300 shares of Apple and do not own or use any of their products. Never have. But I recognize a superior company with a consistent strategy. I think their cash position is somewhat high but not enough to sell their stock!


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## PoorPablo83 (Feb 8, 2010)

As for the original question on this thread:

Donald, you're a contractor right? Over the last couple years (especially since iPhone 4) I've noticed most contractors around here switching to the iPhone to replace the briefcase/clip board/massive paper pile in their truck. I had an ancient Sony phone for years and swore I would never buy in to the hype of the smartphone. Once that phone kicked the dust, I ended up going iPhone and I don't regret it one bit.

It really has helped me organized my work and organize all my side jobs, and it's fun to use. There are also a surprising amount of construction related apps for it too. I bought an Otterbox case for it as I hear they are the most durable, and it's been dropped a few times, and even survived being in my pocket while vibrating a 44m concrete pour... if that doesn't vouch for the durability of an electronic device, I don't know what will. The camera is so good on it we often use it to take pictures of things like perimeter drainage before we backfill or rebar layout in our formwork before we button up our forms to show building inspectors/structural engineers if they are running late or something.

As for the general Apple quality debate, I can only say my 3rd gen iPod nano (the best!), macbook, and iphone 4 have been nothing but rockstars for me. I am unfairly rough with my electronics and all these devices have far exceeded my expectations for quality. I even buy Apple products off their refurbished section of the apple store with no worries about quality. My ipod has been through hell and back getting dropped out of a moving vehicle, surviving being doused in sweat every summer training for 1/2 marathons, being stepped on, etc... the thing is around 4 years old and it still does what I want it to. Im only pissed that the new iPod nanos no longer have a click wheel. Major step back IMO.

My macbook along with it's power cord, is routinely shoved sans case in a back pack with other books and other things, and I have never seen any sign of wear in the cord, and it's a 2006 model.


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## cannew (Jun 19, 2011)

In Canada the data plans and long distance plans can become expensive. That's why I have a Verizon phone(s). We have two phones which cost $123.00 per month with 700 min of long distance minutes (which I have rarely gone over). There are no roaming charges whether I'm in Canada or US. In Dec my 2 year term expires and I'll probably upgrade to an Android smartphone. It will cost me $50 each for the phones and an additional $20 per month for unlimited data plan. Wish an Canadian provider would offer the same cost.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

GOB said:


> Exactly. Every company has problems with their products when made in such massive scale. People envious of Apple's success like to focus on their faults and dismiss things such as consistent top rankings in quality and service because fanatics are artificially giving them high marks. Yeah, great argument.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/14/rim-recalls-at-least-900-faulty-blackberry-playbooks-here-are-t/
> 
> ...


Wow! Selective reading.



ddkay said:


> This is obviously a little harder to control, but it's not an inherent design flaw limited to Apple products like the cable fray, *it happens to every manufacturer* and it's just a tragedy occuring from using bad battery suppliers.


I'm not criticising one-off factory defect incidents, I'm criticisng inherent design flaws that Apple has no intention to fix.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/hvuhg/apple_why/c1yuah6

The short summary:
Apple engineers explained exactly how to make reliable cables
Apple Industrial Design gets the final say
Apple deliberately chose to make unreliable cables because they like the way it looks



> THE most powerful division at Apple is Industrial Design. For those of you unfamiliar with the term industrial design, this is the division that makes the decisions about the overall look and feel of Apple's products. And when I say "the most powerful", I mean that their decisions trump the decisions of any other division at Apple, including Engineering and Customer Service.


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

ddkay said:


> Wow! Selective reading.


Exactly my point, buddy...

You're harping on one issue (of a peripheral, no less) and acting like no other company has any design flaws or flaws of any kind.

If the cable frayed during normal use (which is not easy to do), I wouldn't be surprised if Apple gave you a new one without any hassle, so the point would be moot. Try getting anything fixed with any other vendor, no matter whose fault it is.

I've frayed several sets of earbuds that were not made by apple - some cheap, some expensive. Winding a cable up too tightly is going to eventually cause problems, "design flaw" or not. The technology simply isn't there at the appropriate price point at the moment.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

PoorPablo83 said:


> My macbook along with it's power cord, is routinely shoved sans case in a back pack with other books and other things, and I have never seen any sign of wear in the cord, and it's a 2006 model.


The strain relief change happened across their product line in 2009, so older models have relatively more reliable cables

http://i.imgur.com/yAywo.jpg


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

GOB said:


> Exactly my point, buddy...
> 
> You're harping on one issue (of a peripheral, no less) and acting like no other company has any design flaws or flaws of any kind.


I never said any other company never has design flaws. I'm specifically not buying the Nokia E6-00 released last month because of a design flaw - the notification light is buried under the d-pad making, it's too thin and too dim.

The fact is Apple only has one tablet, one smartphone. When they make design flaws, it effects millions of customers. Compare that to other handset makers, that have dozens of products for selection, and the failure rate is relatively low across the entire product line.



> If the cable frayed during normal use (which is not easy to do), I wouldn't be surprised if Apple gave you a new one without any hassle, so the point would be moot. Try getting anything fixed with any other vendor, no matter whose fault it is.


It is extremely easy to fray the cable, you've obviously never used a macbook long enough to judge for yourself, or bothered to read the user reviews. Macbook, amazing computer, but the charger is garbage.

Getting a replacement is not as easy as you think, you have to lie to customer service and say the purchase was made less than 2 months ago for Apple Care to replace it. Even then it's at their own discretion, it musn't look like "user abuse".


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

https://twitter.com/#!/search/apple charger broke
https://twitter.com/#!/search/mac charger broke
https://twitter.com/#!/search/iphone cord broke

14 tweets about broken chargers / cords since July 25

It's just an isolated problem is it?.. I don't understand how you refuse to acknowledge the scope of this problem. I hope you never have to work in customer service.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Poorpablo:ya a few reasons i want to get a smartphone is directly related to the contracting business,right now i have a standard plain jane sanyo with basic talk,text,its has a durable rubber cover and the phone is slightly bigger with bigger buttons,its not a delicate phone which is all a plus when i am on site and in the elements of site.

Im wanting one needed one because of how fast things have even changed in the last few yrs,most quotes are done now via email,id like to get specs forward to me,i need the capacity for a lot of data input for various things(you know what thats like with old fashion paper and pen,its the shits taking notes,phone numbers,details on paper for the obvious reason)

Id also like it for pics and im not tech saavy but im told you can get 2 iphones to give you a live feed,so i can walk one of my guys through something if he gets stuck on saying back framing issues,and i dont have to cordinate driving there for a 5 min explanation to get them unstuck.

And of course i want to just simply join the world and be able to access the internet during the day,Im of the thought a smartphone is almost becoming a standard "tool" to be able to conduct business properly now,thats the way things are going,im also in the camp of smartphones are eventually going to take over,the world operates on the fly now and your doing yourself a dis-service if your conforming,stricly my opinion thou,and relating to my needs in my life and the life style i have.

What are some good apps your finding relating to contracting you find is a major benefit?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

"OP, don't buy an iPhone because Apple laptop charges break" This is brand shopping because the charger is irrelevant to iPhones. If a single Android device sold as many we'd have lots of tweets about their issues as well


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

donald said:


> And of course i want to just simply join the world and be able to access the internet during the day,Im of the thought a smartphone is almost becoming a standard "tool" to be able to conduct business properly now,thats the way things are going,im also in the camp of smartphones are eventually going to take over,the world operates on the fly now and your doing yourself a dis-service if your conforming,stricly my opinion thou,and relating to my needs in my life and the life style i have.


This is true. The funny thing is the people who don't see it yet are using computers when maybe they should dig out their typewriters and mail us all a letter via royal mail


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

ddkay said:


> https://twitter.com/#!/search/apple charger broke
> https://twitter.com/#!/search/mac charger broke
> https://twitter.com/#!/search/iphone cord broke
> 
> ...


14...out of millions that are sold each quarter. It may or may not be a widespread issue. Singling Apple out because "so many millions of people are affected" is stupid. Like any other company, they can make mistakes. The fact that so many people own Apple products does not make them immune to the odd screwup. Bottom line is it's a cable/charger - not such a big deal to me. 

I can acknowledge issues with no trouble. What annoys me is when they are taken overboard, just because it's Apple. Just like the iPhone 4 antenna - are most people aware that all phones suffer attenuation when held by the antenna? And some of them even have specific spots that they instruct the user not to touch? Probably not. (There are plenty of Youtube videos proving this). But because it's Apple, the issue becomes overblown. And the iPhone 4 has gone on to become the 5th best selling phone in history in just over one year's time...seems like it was really a legitimate cause for concern.

Edit: This is hilarious and proves my point completely. 

HTC chargers: https://twitter.com/#!/search/htc charger broke
Samsung: https://twitter.com/#!/search/samsung charger broke
RIM: https://twitter.com/#!/search/blackberry charger broke

Considering how many more Apple products are out there for people to complain about, the above is pretty telling, isn't it? Looks like there are "inherent design flaws" in many more chargers than just Apple's


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Those are NOT inherent design flaws. Those are incidental design/manufacturing flaws that slipped through because of equally bad quality control, but not PLANNED failure component failure. For example the blackberry charger issue is likely the Cradle making poor contact with the charging contacts on the phone after wear and tear. If you have a blackberry that charges via USB the contacts aren't exposed to the element and tend to last longer.

Apple knows about strain relief issues (I've already linked to their support page). Industrial Design doesn't give a damn enough to anything to prevent it in future releases. Apple is all form over function. That's Job's motto, no other company operates this way.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Haha so RIM takes the cake on most twitter posts about broken chargers in the past week. Don't even have to go per capita on this

Samsung and HTC make top notch hardware. Korea is the new Japan IMO. Apple is however a full package software/hardware designed for each other. Samsungs will always have better specs but specs aren't everything, bigger and better isn't always best but it's what consumers shop for



ddkay said:


> Apple is all form over function. That's Job's motto, no other company operates this way.


Please, so the others are specs over function then.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> Please, so the others are specs over function then.


Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but with every manufacturer I can think of, it doesn't take 3 years plus to address an issue in the next iteration after hundreds of thousands of customers have complained.


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

ddkay said:


> Those are NOT inherent design flaws. Those are incidental design/manufacturing flaws that slipped through because of equally bad quality control, but not PLANNED failure component failure. For example the blackberry charger issue is likely the Cradle making poor contact with the charging contacts on the phone after wear and tear. If you have a blackberry that charges via USB the contacts aren't exposed to the element and tend to last longer.
> 
> Apple knows about strain relief issues (I've already linked to their support page). Industrial Design doesn't give a damn enough to anything to prevent it in future releases. Apple is all form over function. That's Job's motto, no other company operates this way.


So all the other companies that make these cables are just ignorant about strain and relief issues? And we are how many years into this era of computing? Give me a break, seriously. If Apple can have the same (or fewer) number of defects per unit AND have superior design, then clearly they are better. Case closed.

You are just going on about an ALLEGED choice that Apple made based on the post of an anonymous "ex-employee". He may or may not be an ex-employee and he may or may not have enough knowledge on the matter to be representing it accurately. Perhaps Apple made several prototype designs and concluded that the additional quality (if any) was too marginal to sacrifice the design? Perhaps some might not agree with that decision, but it may not have been as easy as you are making it out to be, and like it or not, design is an important part of Apple products and a major reason they are doing so well. 

I just showed you how all cables virtually "function" the same. If Apple's motto is form over function, then every other company's motto is ugly, inefficient design over that exact same function, since they are all prone to failure. Seems like an easy choice to me.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

It's the aesthetics of a product that people obtain a sense of quality and a sense of experience. A lot of thought goes into the choice of colour and the form of their products. Think about the uniform whiteness, the glossy surfaces (around the same time all those glossy LCD screens starting coming out - humans are attracted to reflective materials). Think about when Apple started marketing the iPod, the first people they gave the products to were celebrities, musicians (Moby). So when teenagers saw their idols on TV with their iPods it became the first prominent icon for music players. Their objective wasn't to make run-off-the-mill music player, their objective was to create a [different] product with a unique user expereince. And they've succeeded with that, wildly. I'm not bashing their success.

Find me more than one video on YouTube of another manufacturer's power cable failing this way - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lZSB4OzyAo

You can't. No one is picking on Apple for their success, they are criticised on this particular issue for cheaping out on important components at the expense of minimalist design. I respect them for taking risks like that on the software front (HTML5 over Flash). Some things to this day still annoy savvy customers, like FairPlay DRM. But is just inexcusable to take risks on mandatory physical components, like power cables!!

When you buy an iPhone, you're buying into the Apple image, the Apple personality. It's what makes customers so complacent. And to say Apple fans aren't fanatical is like denying the Earth is round. That's the center point of their success.


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## PoorPablo83 (Feb 8, 2010)

Donald:

The main app I use is just an hours tracker where you can add different jobs, your wage, tax/deductions etc. It's essentially a time card, but it's pretty handy when you're jumping from job to job during the day or have several jobs on the go. There are quite a few available, some free, the paid ones are pretty cheap though. With some of them you can keep track of employee's hours, and you can export all the data to your computer or you can email it to whoever does your books come pay day. Pretty handy. 

There are construction calculators and estimating apps (not really too useful... being able to estimate kind of comes with the territory!  ) and even some suppliers have apps, although they are mainly the bigger box stores like HD or Rona. I believe you can look them all up on itunes or the apple store before you get the phone and get a feel for them.

The feature I like most is just having the GPS, internet, email all there. If I need to find a product from an obscure supplier or something, I can quickly search for them, find their hours, call, and have directions to them. I also like having a 'note pad' feature so at the end of the day i can jot down whatever I need to pick up for the next morning and have everything organized in one place.

If you have a macbook you can sync your phone with it which is handy for transferring contacts, files, and most importantly for me, my calendar. It's nice entering your schedule into your computer at home and having it come up on your phone when you're out on the job.

Most of these features aren't exclusive to the iPhone, so you may find a phone you like better. I just got my phone a couple months ago and haven't even scratched the surface with it's capabilities... I'm going to have to really sit down one weekend and figure out all the cool stuff one can do with it!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

As a frugal person I had the same mindset as you. I was given an iPod and I was like "arhh I don't want to be one of those people" But guess what it's not about looks, it was hand down better than other mp3 players

I'm the biggest fan of Google and I actually wanted the Nexus One and I wanted the Galaxy S instead of iPhones. When I did my research, iPhones just offered more *function* to me

To me, the minimalist design means it's solid and it fits easily in my pocket/lays flat on a table etc and it's compatible with more accessories (it slides flat into a solid holder that no curvy phone could do). *This is function over form*. I see it the other way around, how much money does Samsung/HTC etc spend to pointlessly redesign new shapes for the hundreds of models they design? Only to make them look "different" and "not Apple" How much does that curved screen cost to make? It really doesn't bother me that my phone doesn't curve with my face lol

Don't kid yourself, Samsung and friends care about form just as much. My sense of quality is not based on aesthetics. It's based on aluminum and flat being a better design than curvy plastic


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

PoorPablo you should check out the theodolite app. If you ever need a picture stamped with all the sensory data (time, GPS, accelerometer etc) or if you ever want to quickly triangulate a measurement it's quite handy. I wouldn't use it for building something but it's great for quick estimates


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

ddkay said:


> It's the aesthetics of a product that people obtain a sense of quality and a sense of experience. A lot of thought goes into the choice of colour and the form of their products. Think about the uniform whiteness, the glossy surfaces (around the same time all those glossy LCD screens starting coming out - humans are attracted to reflective materials). Think about when Apple started marketing the iPod, the first people they gave the products to were celebrities, musicians (Moby). So when teenagers saw their idols on TV with their iPods it became the first prominent icon for music players. Their objective wasn't to make run-off-the-mill music player, their objective was to create a [different] product with a unique user expereince. And they've succeeded with that, wildly. I'm not bashing their success.
> 
> Find me more than one video on YouTube of another manufacturer's power cable failing this way - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lZSB4OzyAo
> 
> ...


Sure they exist, but the implication that Apple's quality is substandard and the fanatics are boosting their ratings is patently absurd. There are plenty of people who simply use Apple products because it works the best for them, and aren't fanatical in any sense of the word. My intention is not to be sexist here, but take the average woman. She will want to use the computer that meets her needs and causes the fewest problems (this applies to a lot of men too, myself included). If that's an Apple, she'll buy a Mac. If not, she won't. She doesn't care about the technology field or the company as long as what she uses works. I do agree that aesthetic appeal plays a part, but there is also no denying that Macs are generally easier to use with fewer problems. This would be reflected in quality and satisfaction surveys - not because they are "fanatical".

I would say the center point around Apple's success is creating consumer loyalty through exceptional design, ease of use and customer support on all their products. If that loyalty makes somebody a fanatic in your eyes, then so be it. I think it's entirely justified - people will keep buying what works for them and gives them positive experiences.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

There's also the matter of Apple steadfastly refusing to make modestly priced computers/phones. The hypothetical woman in your example better be upper middle class, or she won't be able to afford her computer that just works. 

Of course, that is entirely deliberate. Has nothing to do with margins, and more to do with keeping the brand 'aspirational'. If they do eventually start making reasonably priced devices for developing markets, don't expect them to go on sale in NA.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Bottom line is apple is the "sexy" in the smartphone market,however it was done or if they deserve it or not does not matter,there the "it"

Take me for example,im not a tech guy,i dont know sh*t about smartphones but i do know apple and so does nearly everyone.

There whole story has everything,they are ranked #1 company in the world.2 they have a ceo that is ranked #1 3 Pop culture is whole heartly behind them,you get the point.

They have to do very little now,they crossed the tipping point,they have a cult following,People want to be seen with apple products,the symbol of apple says the same thing as the symbols of lexus for example,or gucchi(there competitors dont have this branding)

People want to be associated with apple . its that simple,that aint going to change anytime soon.Doesnt matter if they have faulty cords,or any technical crap.


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

andrewf said:


> There's also the matter of Apple steadfastly refusing to make modestly priced computers/phones. The hypothetical woman in your example better be upper middle class, or she won't be able to afford her computer that just works.
> 
> Of course, that is entirely deliberate. Has nothing to do with margins, and more to do with keeping the brand 'aspirational'. If they do eventually start making reasonably priced devices for developing markets, don't expect them to go on sale in NA.


A lot of people are willing to pay a small premium for something that works better. Especially if it's something they use for hours each day. I think Apple's business model is just fine, since Macs growth has been consistently greater than PC growth for several years. Yes, some of that is due to their small market share, but that's not the whole story. I don't see their phone price as a problem since they are selling out every one they can make - without stooping to BOGO offers and such like competitors do.

Consumers that are too price sensitive will not go for Macs - that's fine. Nobody can appeal to the entire market.


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## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

kcowan said:


> I must be unique. I hold 300 shares of Apple and do not own or use any of their products. Never have. But I recognize a superior company with a consistent strategy. I think their cash position is somewhat high but not enough to sell their stock!


You and me both pal. I own tons of shares as well and I've only bought 3 products from them.

1. *Ipod Nano 2nd Gen* (Bought it but it broke in the first year )

2. *Ipod Nano 3rd Gen* (For myself to use at the gym and replaced the broken 2nd Gen)

3. *Iphone 4* (for my ex girlfriend)

As to the massive amount of negativity surrounding their cash reserves, long term shareholders aren't complaining. Look at other Tech giants and for the sake of this argument let's throw in RIMM as well. 

I'm going to pick on RIM here. They have around 3 billion in cash, no debt and they are failing on every level. Shareholders have been suffering for many quarters now and that cash is essentially doing nothing.

Apple has 76 billion in cash, no debt and is just sitting on all that cash. Shareholders on the other hand are buying themselves top hats and monocles and laughing all the way to the bank. 

Who cares what they do with the cash as long as they are executing on all cylinders. 

This is a stock that has so much room to grow it's scary. Nobody should be scared off because of its high share price. Just close your eyes and imagine it being a $40 stock. Can't allocate a lot to it? Then buy 5, 10 or 25 shares and just sit back and watch your profits grow.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The "wait until they screw up, then try to save the cash" attitude is not a good idea. I won't have any sympathy for shareholders who hold this view.


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

andrewf said:


> The "wait until they screw up, then try to save the cash" attitude is not a good idea. I won't have any sympathy for shareholders who hold this view.


And likewise, I won't have any sympathy for people who hold off on investing in Apple and missing their almost inevitable returns simply because they have "too much cash". I consider Apple among my safest long term investments, their cash hoard being part of the reason.


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## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

I think Apple stock is safer than gold. I'm not kidding 

If I had to make a decision barring some unforeseen market event and I had to liquidate one of the two positions, I'd get rid of gold in a heartbeat. 

Everyone views investments differently so this may seem absurd to some of you.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Not to detract from the whole "AAPL" conversation up there.

But, I got a 3G, then a 3GS, and now have the 4.

I would never go to something else. The iPhone is too convenient. If you don't have an iPhone, you might as well just not even bother with a SmartPhone.

The only thing that the iPhone lacks is the ability to customize, which, I'm sure is coming right around the corner. AAPL knows what they are doing. The only thing that Google has over AAPL is its third party and customization features. AAPL can implement that in a second if they want to.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

KaeJS said:


> The only thing that the iPhone lacks is the ability to customize, which, I'm sure is coming right around the corner.


It depends on what you mean by "customize." One of the major keys to Apple's success is its iron-fisted control over both hardware and operating system software, which ensures that everything works and everything is compatible. Once you open things up, it starts looking like the PC world.

This is part of what has kept Apple small in comparison to Microsoft, but it is also a major key to its success and I don't see them abandoning that strategy anytime soon. They abandoned it briefly in the early 1990s when they allowed Apple clones to come onto the market, but that didn't last long.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> The only thing that Google has over AAPL is its third party and customization features. AAPL can implement that in a second if they want to.


Well, Google does have the whole search/places/maps/gmail etc but blocking those from iPhone would be against their whole "freedom of information" moto. Google maps gets accessed in nearly all the best iPhone apps haha


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## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

http://i.imgur.com/VGjru.jpg


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I'm sure there is some room for customization, but I agree that Apple's whole strategy is a locked down ecosystem.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Nice day to be a appl shareholder,up nicely,so many are calling appl to 450-500 a share at yrs end,some are saying in 36 mth it will be north of 800 a share.

The appl story,how can you bet against it?very hard.


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## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

donald said:


> Nice day to be a appl shareholder,up nicely,so many are calling appl to 450-500 a share at yrs end,some are saying in 36 mth it will be north of 800 a share.
> 
> The appl story,how can you bet against it?very hard.


Yeah I saw those too. I read a very promising research report today indicating that Apple is absolutely obliterating Nokia and RIM in handset sales and that it is likely to pick up going into Q4


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Ahba,did you catch the news about fords 1 mil re calls?I know i picked up you had a sizeable positions,will that matter any?ford is a hard stock to read,up abit today,investors seem to absoultly hate (f) i dont really get the story behind it!

Ford has alot going for them from everything i scam,cant believe its trading in the 12s

This is way off topic of apple,but its hard to imagine f is going to stay in the basement much longer,do you like apple over ford for a long?


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Abha said:


> Yeah I saw those too. I read a very promising research report today indicating that Apple is absolutely obliterating Nokia and RIM in handset sales and that it is likely to pick up going into Q4


I wouldn't mind a link to this report, if you'd care to share it. 

I monitor (not too closely) relative sales of handheld devices as part of my professional role. 

One other piece of data to add to the feed is the requests our clients present for mobile apps: who wants what developed, on what platform? Apple wins on that metric by a very long shot.


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## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

@donald I intend to double my position somewhere around $12.00 - 12.50.

Here's a fluff piece by Barrons but in any case I really have a lot of faith in this company. If the market was even slightly positive this would be in the 15's

http://online.barrons.com/article/S...L_qtlatestnews_latestnews#articleTabs=article


@moneygal I'll see if I can get you a PDF copy. Here's an excerpt:

Via Morgan Keegan

Q2 was a “fascinating” quarter for mobile phone sales, not just because Apple (AAPL) toppled Nokia (NOK) for the first time as the number one smartphone vendor by units.

Some of the broader industry stats are startling.

“Overall unit growth was down sequentially and only up 3% Y/Y, which is literally recession territory,” units have never fallen in a Q2 in any year. Even though revenue was up 52% and Ebitda doubled as pre-tax profit margin hit an all-time high of nearly 17% as greater numbers of smartphones drove up prices and margins.

Apple raked in two thirds of the total industry profit, and is set up for a good second half as some consumers who sat on the fence get lured in by new unveilings, such as the expected next version of the iPhone.


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## realist (Apr 8, 2011)

the-royal-mail said:


> I didn't buy palm pilots and I won't be buying these.


I don't disagree with your broader points about cost, or particularly the environment, but comparing a Palm Pilot to an iPhone is a bit like comparing a bicycle to a Mercedes!


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## messageman (Aug 23, 2011)

*iPhone - yes or no?*



donald said:


> How many of you cmfers use a iphone?im thinking of picking one up in september when the iphone 5 is going to be lauched,lots of questions i have.
> 
> Are they worth it?
> does anyone have any faults with there iphone?
> ...


Worth it? To me yes! For many, many reasons.
Faults? Have called people by accident because I never backed out of the dialing screen...my fault!
Never go back? ...to what? Android phones are having "virus" issues. Also, we are Apple/Mac lovers and the iPhone is the logical choice. I have an iPhone 4...may upgrade to iPhone5...maybe! More likely to buy and iPad3 or what ever they will call it. (iSlate?)


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