# Diamonds Are Bullshit



## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Every couple about to be married should read this. Especially the bride.

Diamonds Are Bullshit


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Quote:

We like diamonds because Gerold M. Lauck told us to. Until the mid 20th century, diamond engagement rings were a small and dying industry in America. Nor had the concept really taken hold in Europe. Moreover, with Europe on the verge of war, it didn’t seem like a promising place to invest. 

Not surprisingly, the American market for diamond engagement rings began to shrink during the Great Depression. Sales volume declined and the buyers that remained purchased increasingly smaller stones. But the US market for engagement rings was still 75% of De Beers’ sales. If De Beers was going to grow, it had to reverse the trend.

And so, in 1938, De Beers turned to Madison Avenue for help. They hired Gerold Lauck and the N. W. Ayer advertising agency, who commissioned a study with some astute observations. Men were the key to the market:



> Since “young men buy over 90% of all engagement rings” it would be crucial to inculcate in them the idea that diamonds were a gift of love: the larger and finer the diamond, the greater the expression of love. Similarly, young women had to be encouraged to view diamonds as an integral part of any romantic courtship.


However, there was a dilemma. Many smart and prosperous women didn’t want diamond engagement rings. They wanted to be different. 



> The millions of brides and brides-to-be are subjected to at least two important pressures that work against the diamond engagement ring. Among the more prosperous, there is the sophisticated urge to be different as a means of being smart…. the lower-income groups would like to show more for the money than they can find in the diamond they can afford…


Lauck needed to sell a product that people either did not want or could not afford. His solution would haunt men for generations. He advised that De Beers market diamonds as a status symbol:



> ”The substantial diamond gift can be made a more widely sought symbol of personal and family success — an expression of socio-economic achievement.”
> 
> …
> 
> "Promote the diamond as one material object which can reflect, in a very personal way, a man’s … success in life."


The next time you look at a diamond, consider this. Nearly every American marriage begins with a diamond because a bunch of rich white men in the 1940s convinced everyone that its size determines your self worth. They created this convention - that unless a man purchases (an intrinsically useless) diamond, his life is a failure - while sitting in a room, racking their brains on how to sell diamonds that no one wanted.


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## bflannel (Apr 21, 2013)

True and easy to see. Convincing your spouse is one thing but having to convince all of her family and friends all the while not looking like a shmuck is even more difficult (I imagine).


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## LBCfan (Jan 13, 2011)

My bride got one in 1977. IIRC it cost about $200 while I made about $10K/yr. She still likes it. Of course, it's possibly (on a relative scale) she got something bigger than the rock.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

We decided together that having a big screen TV and sound system was far more useful then a ring that does nothing. She doesn't like wearing rings so it was a no brainer to have something we can look at and use on a daily basis.


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## atrp2biz (Sep 22, 2010)

My wife doesn't wear a diamond--actually, she doesn't wear any jewellery at all. At Christmas parties and other large social events, she will wear a zirconian ring just to avoid questions. 

I lost my first wedding ring. I think I lost it in an A&W parking lot in Red Deer during the Christmas holidays last year. I had lost some weight and was carrying my youngest to the vehicle and I noticed my finger was ringless after another hour on the road. My hands were cold and the ring must have just slipped off.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Does your wife realize the powerful side affects of zirconia ?

Zirconia took down Superman............the Man of Steel, for goodness sakes. 

It weakened him to the point of...............what ?............kryptonite...........oh............sorry, never mind.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I waited 20 years to get mine ,truthfully most married couples cannot afford jewelry expenses the first 5-10 years of marriage .


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

It's all psychological. 

The same as one who earns $100,000 per year feels more superior to a person who only earns $50,000 per year. If a women shows a 1 carat diamond ring to a friend who is only wearing a 1/2 carat diamond ring. She believes it proves that her husband loves her more then her friend's husband loves her friend. Kind of a "my husband is better then your husband, na, na, na , na, nah" kind of thing.

Pathetic ... but it is what it is.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

OptsyEagle said:


> Pathetic ... but it is what it is.


Speaking of pathetic .... Lets' not forget the "Two months salary guideline" for buying a diamond right.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

To me, the real sign of success is those who don't have to work for money, not those who work to show off success. I've found most truly rich people aren't the ones with the big mortgages, I mean houses, the huge credit card limits, I mean clothes and jewels, nor the fancy car loans, I mean vehicles.

Many of the rich people volunteer a lot, work in a job they love doing, when they want to do it, drive reliable vehicles, quality stuff and spend a lot of time with their families.


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## Taraz (Nov 24, 2013)

There's a simple solution to this - don't get married. Then you can live happily in sin with no ring, no wedding bill, and an an extra ~$30k plus returns in investments.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Crass thread title no?
One could easily substitute "Christmas" for "Diamonds", but in the same manner as Christmas, despite the marketing, manipulation and hype - most people find some meaning or value. A well cut diamond, sparkling on her finger or in gold around her neck is a beautiful sight.


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## Taraz (Nov 24, 2013)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Crass thread title no?
> One could easily substitute "Christmas" for "Diamonds", but in the same manner as Christmas, despite the marketing, manipulation and hype - most people find some meaning or value. A well cut diamond, sparkling on her finger or in gold around her neck is a beautiful sight.


A cubic zirconia (or even a rhinestone) is just as beautiful. If you have money to burn, by all means - buy diamonds (or super-yachts, or private jets, or fancy cars). It's just really sad when people go into debt or blow a big chunk of their savings to buy something like that.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

most people find some meaning or value-end quote.
Does anybody have any idea what goes on at diamond mines(google blood diamonds and the like)
I have to laugh at western women(the typical liberal chest pumping feminist save the whales)
Children get slaughtered and killed in these 3rd world diamond mines but who cares-show me the diamond.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I agree that diamonds are stupid, and I will avoid buying any.

My interpretation of diamonds: it's supposed to be an indicator that a man ("the provider") is able and willing to spend a bunch of $$ on a woman. The actual item is nearly meaningless, other than being shiny and expensive. The fact it's expensive is what is meaningful to some women.

I think gifts are fine, and I've bought nice silver jewellery for girlfriends before. But a big, ridiculously expensive diamond ring is way beyond just a classy gift for a gal you like. It's part of a world view:

Personally, I don't join this world view that a man is supposed to be the provider and that the woman is supposed to be the baby-maker, care-giver, and pretty arm candy. As a result I also reject the notion of the need for these kinds of things (diamond rings). For me, if a potential wife insists upon something like a diamond, it just shows me that our values don't align.

I expect a wife to provide for me just as much as she wants me to provide for her. I want an equal partnership. And honestly, even if I agreed to the old "man is provider" model, the women I've met in my dating years don't exhibit the kinds of old world charm, class, sweetness or delicateness that I would demand if we were operating under the old "man is provider" model.

Obviously there are some women who think they don't have to do the traditional lady-like things, but still expect men to provide for them in the traditional way. They may certainly find some men willing to engage in that warped arrangement, but I'm not the kind of sucker who will fall for that.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Taraz said:


> If you have money to burn, by all means - buy diamonds (or super-yachts, or private jets, or fancy cars).


I bought my wife an engagement ring back in the day. Can't recall what it cost. About 5 years later the diamond must have come out of it's setting while we were out sailing (on not exactly a superyacht). We searched everywhere for it including down in the bilge, without luck. When we eventually sold the boat, buyer got the diamond too. For all we know whoever now owns the boat still has my wife's diamond. 

We never thought to check if one of our insurance policies would have covered our loss. I any event, luckily my wife isn't into jewelry and didn't want a replacement. Nevertheless, she was given my mother's diamond ring. But she lost the diamond out of that too 

I am not concerned - I have lost a LOT more by buying shares in Shore Gold (which happens to be a diamond exploration company located in Sask.)


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Taraz said:


> There's a simple solution to this - don't get married. Then you can live happily in sin with no ring, no wedding bill, and an an extra ~$30k plus returns in investments.


It is perfectly possible to have engagement rings and to get married without enormous expenses. Marriage (IMHO) and a wedding should be about love and the creation of a special union, not about a gaudy and boastful display of wealth to try and make other people jealous and show female friends how full-of-money your new husband is.


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## Moneytoo (Mar 26, 2014)

It wasn't customary back home to buy engagement rings, so we bought plain gold wedding bands (mine is so wide and unfashionable, but still fits - so I wear it sometimes, still on the right hand: https://www.mytriorings.com/cultura...idal-rings-on-the-left-or-the-right-hand.html )

For my 30th anniversary, we found a beautiful ring with 3 small diamonds that my husband bought for me - as a birthday gift (I didn't have any real jewelry before it) I loved it so much, would often stare at it and play with the sparkles. Still wear it often - on the fourth finger of the left hand. A few people asked about it, I said it's my 30th anniversary gift.

And when we vacationed in St. Marten, we bought a diamond necklace (because everybody was saying that diamonds are dirt cheap there - and it did cost only a bit more than the ring, about 2.2K USD) I wore it a few times, mostly for Christmas parties. Everybody was sure that it was cubic zirconia lol 

But, then again, we didn't even have a proper wedding - as we both couldn't understand why waste so much money to entertain people we're not close with for one day... But I don't think our daughter would want to elope - the marketing is strong here, starting with Disney movies. So yeah, she'd expect a proper engagement ring - with a silly sparkly diamond


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

But the only choices aren't between eloping and having a big fancy wedding.

People still do small weddings. There is such a thing as a modest, small/private wedding.


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## Moneytoo (Mar 26, 2014)

Yeah my close friend had one, on the beach - I wasn't invited, but the pictures were beautiful... lol

Anyways, I personally don't think diamonds are more of a bullshit than say granite countertops...


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I think granite countertops are bullshit too!


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I got man made quartz counter tops for a good price that don't need to be sealed like granite does. I far prefer it over the cheap laminate counter tops.


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## LBCfan (Jan 13, 2011)

Maybe it's time to grow up, act like adults and do whatever you damn well please. You want a diamond, buy one. You don't, then don't.

Please don't tell the rest of the world what to do. They are, well some of them are, responsible adults.


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## Moneytoo (Mar 26, 2014)

I think we should dig deeper as the root of all evil is St. Valentine's Day. Once you bought that rose, box of chocolates or a teddy bear and took her out - that's it, you're screwed for life! lol


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## LBCfan (Jan 13, 2011)

Moneytoo said:


> ... that's it, you're screwed for life! lol


Well it was many years ago, but I'd argue it was being screwed on this night.


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## Moneytoo (Mar 26, 2014)

LBCfan said:


> I'd argue it was being screwed on this night.


Ok then - teddies are a boy's best friends lol:


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

LBCfan said:


> Maybe it's time to grow up, act like adults and do whatever you damn well please. You want a diamond, buy one. You don't, then don't.
> 
> Please don't tell the rest of the world what to do.


Here Here!!:applouse::applouse:


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## tinypotato (Jul 27, 2010)

Your money, do what you want with it. As long as you don't go asking for a tax-funded bailout later, it's none of my business.

For people who don't like spending on "stuff"; don't. Simple as that. If it makes you happy to not do it...don't

However, it doesn't make people who DO buy stuff bad people. Just as it doesn't make you a better person for NOT buying stuff.

If people derive happiness from their actions and aren't harming others...that's fine

(now someone will reply with their high-horse response about blood diamonds)


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> I agree that diamonds are stupid, and I will avoid buying any ...
> But a big, ridiculously expensive diamond ring is way beyond just a classy gift for a gal you like ...
> For me, if a potential wife insists upon something like a diamond, it just shows me that our values don't align ...


While I understand the general argument ... this seems like too much of a black & white stance.

This seems to be saying that *any* diamond is going to throw a wrench into the relationship. After watching my co-worker spend 1% of his salary on a diamond engagement ring his bride loved (and factoring in everything else she does for him), I am not sure that such a black & white stance makes sense.

Or perhaps it has been easy for you to find gals who have a similar view on diamonds.




james4beach said:


> ... I expect a wife to provide for me just as much as she wants me to provide for her. I want an equal partnership ...


No offense ... but does this mean the starting point is to compare salaries to make sure it can be somewhat close to 50/50?
Feel free to no answer if you wish but as most of the couples I know have vastly different salaries - how does one go about trying to even the contributions up?


Cheers


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I feel like anything it should go more by ones strengths and weaknesses. One person provides most of the earned money, the other takes care of the kids, cleans and takes care of that end. If this is not even enough then it will be a more of a mix or whatever. At my house I am useless when it comes to buying clothes for anyone or doing laundry and putting it away for everyone. We both work and both clean but I handle the finances, insurance, automobile and house repairs.

I don't think one can actually say what really is even or equal in a relationship.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eclectic12 said:


> No offense ... but does this mean the starting point is to compare salaries to make sure it can be somewhat close to 50/50?
> Feel free to no answer if you wish but as most of the couples I know have vastly different salaries - how does one go about trying to even the contributions up?


Hi Eclectic12, re-reading my posts I agree with you and think my stance seemed too black and white. After all, I _have_ bought jewelry for girlfriends and plan to buy more. It can be a nice gift so there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

About the salaries. My hope is to find a girlfriend who earns a similar salary. Most of my female friends earn as a high a salary as I do, so I think it's possible.

In my volatile line of work, my average salary over the years hasn't been too high. Currently I gross 150K but the average in my working years has been 65K and that's my best guess for "next year". There will be stretches of time when I have zero income. It should be possible to find a girlfriend with that kind of salary or approximately that much, after adjusting for benefits.

For example, all I need is a wife with a government job earning 50K and then she and I would more or less be equal income earners, once you adjust for volatility, pensions and benefits.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

I thought maybe it was too black & white ... :biggrin:

The big deal from my perspective is to be oh so close but let what may be a small difference prolong the search.


Cheers


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I paid $275 for my wife's engagement ring 44 years ago. Birks threw in a free wedding band and an attractive silver case (not sure what happened to that). Does not sound like much but I was a poor university student at the time. And it came with a lifetime of 'free cleaning' and a trade back offer.

Never bothered to upgrade it. Spent our money on houses, kids, wine, and travel instead....not necessarily in that order either. 

So, it turned out to be a great investment for me.


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## Curiouscreature (Jan 3, 2016)

Similar situation but not quite 44 years ago (congratulations for that long marriage!). I spent 8K on a ring for my wife 12 years ago. Still wears it to this day daily, and still loves it, just meant scrimping for year. If it is a choice of putting money towards a house, retirement investment, I agree that those may have been smarter use of the money, but I don't feel the return on investment has been terrible in an intangible way. As someone who has been married a long time, and has gone through ups and downs, I can tell you with some credibility, that putting the money into something that is just material (ie) stereo/tv will be a far worse return on investment. After 10/15 years, and the shininess of those things are long gone, and bitterness of that investment vs getting that ring could creep in.

If you have a spouse that truly doesn't care, great, but if there is any doubt, the investment is worthwhile if you are in it for the long haul...I've made much worse investments through my life.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I am gong to chime in. I admit it, I really like shiney blingy things. However, I am still rather practical. 

Before getting engaged, my spouse knew I liked really nice diamonds. I knew a lot about Damond's, and we would window shop for fun. We went into Birks, and I picked out the most beautiful Canadian diamond. They wrote the amount on a card, and slid the card to him. He barely flinched, and asked if we could get a luxury SUV instead, a big TV and a lesser diamond, as it would cost the same. 

I didn't crack a smile, and said, but what IF the thing I REALLY wanted (he was the one that wants the SUV and TV). He said if that's the only thing I really wanted, he would make it happen but it might take longer. He was sincere. I said, don't you dare get that ring. Something more reasonable is totally fine, but still we are not getting the TV or SUV.

A couple of years later, he bought me a very nice diamond, less two months salary, but something That was high sloth but smaller with the intent of upgrading. Again, when I was going to have my first child, we talked about upgrading  as a 'push gift'. Again, I picked out a really nice diamond. Again, he agreed even though it was not practical work a new mouth to feed and mat leave. Again, I said thanks, but got myself a nice purse instead. Same thing happened with the second child, but no purse. 

My point was, for me, it was important enough knowing that my spouse was willing to spend the money on something that would make me happy even if he didn't agree with it. That he would see that money and savings was only a part of the equation, but rather it needed to be balanced with other intrinsic value. 

I am actually the practical one between the two of us, and for me knowing that I can buy the diamond, and my souse would not make a stink about means more than the diamond itself. I still look at the big sparkly diamonds, and my spouse reminds me I can get one if it makes me happy, and that in itself is good enough. 

Sometimes the diamonds is the value of what it represents.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

What are resale prices for diamonds like? Can they be sold on the secondary market for close to original purchase price? This article suggests that you lose 80% of its value!
http://www.marketplace.org/2013/02/22/business/diamonds-are-not-jewel-investment

Gold and silver jewelry retains its value quite well. Given the choice I think I'd rather get jewelry that retains its value instead of making the money disappear in a "poof"


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## cn_habs (Oct 27, 2015)

Plugging Along said:


> I am gong to chime in. I admit it, I really like shiney blingy things. However, I am still rather practical.
> 
> Before getting engaged, my spouse knew I liked really nice diamonds. I knew a lot about Damond's, and we would window shop for fun. We went into Birks, and I picked out the most beautiful Canadian diamond. They wrote the amount on a card, and slid the card to him. He barely flinched, and asked if we could get a luxury SUV instead, a big TV and a lesser diamond, as it would cost the same.
> 
> ...


I understand your point but it's just proof that De Boers was simply a marketing and brainwashing genius as many other precious medals retain value and last longer than diamonds.

That "Diamonds are forever" line is such a load of human-made BS.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Plugging,a suv(mid range) and a TV(a decent set-up yrs ago)is combined easily 45K
If I am not a multi-millionaire and my soon to wife seriously implied I get that for her I am serious I would tell her to pound sand and shake of the bullshit Disney princess notion that flooded her mind
This **** the diamond industry did is combined with what Disney has done has done imo
This ridic notion of a male striving for a women
I have never put a women on a pedestal above me(I did when I was younger and learned fast to never be that way every again lol)


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Rings have zero to do with marriage
I have only ever seen them as 'social' currency amongst women
To invoke who is the superior of their social circle and environment
Make no mistake women secretly love competing with other women esp in covert ways like diamonds
period


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

donald, yes that (as you describe) is a concern of mine and _for some women_ ... that's what's happening.

But there's also another side, that jewellery is simply a beautiful thing. I've seen a lot of jewellery that looks attractive on a woman. And many precious stones for example are desirable and attractive things.

There's nothing wrong about someone wanting to have an attractive stone or jewel, or enjoying it because it's rare or valuable. Thinking about this I am reminded of my aunt. *She loves precious stones*. But it's not men who buy them for her ... in fact she finds them herself, hunts and finds great deals second hand or in private deals. And buys them for herself.

And yes the stones are beautiful. I've seen opal, garnet, and many pearls and they're all beautiful. No question they are desirable items.

So yes attractive stones and gems can be beautiful and desirable items. For myself, the part that gives me trouble is the bragging rights or social status, or "display of husband's wealth"... which _diamonds in particular seem to exemplify_. That strikes me as tacky.

Would I buy my girlfriend an attractive stone or beautiful piece of jewellery? Sure. But I won't buy a diamond, since it's been marketed as a show of a husband's wealth, at ridiculous price tags. I find that tacky and crass. I'd rather buy her something that is beautiful for the sake of being beautiful.

I was travelling in the South Pacific and bought a black pearl for my girlfriend. A shop in Canada confirmed it's real, and I had it mounted on a silver necklace. Not particularly expensive, but definitely a rare item... only grown in the South Pacific islands around Tahiti. Exotic and beautiful. Heck, I kept one black pearl for myself because it's neat.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

James-I googled 'why do women hate each other'
I got 130 000 000 hits in 0.2 search.
and I know 99% of people googling said question is female asking this
I was dating a women not long ago(a 30 yr old women)
she worked in a office(ratio of 75% females)
about once every 2 weeks she would pissed off(verge of crying)
'mean girls' is not just something women out grow
I work in construction so my work environment is void of this
Why you think there is a mental health crisis now
largely women/women dynamics unfolding in the work place


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

donald I understand that, but I also assure you that both men and women simply like the look of certain precious objects and this doesn't necessarily have any animosity or competition in it.

Myself for instance. I love the look and feel of a gold bar. Ever held real, pure gold? It's mesmerizing. And a Maple Leaf gold coin ... nothing short of a piece of art.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I know what your saying James but I took this topic of diamonds from the lens of-$$$
Of course gold is beautiful!

I don't know what the 'rules' are(1 month or 2? of salary?)
So if I make 80-90k(this is my salary by the way)
I have to spend around what 12k or so on a ring?

If my soom to be wife's best friend's husbands make 250k a yr and spends 35k on a ring
Who's ring is going to look better?
Am I suppose to be in this wired dynamic where I feel threated by my girlfriends husband?(of course not,i already know he is wealthier ,good on him-after dinner lets have some rums and play cards and that is that)
Something tells me my girlfriend and her friends prob struggle with this ring dynamic)
Why do I have to be a part of this somehow

besides if I have a 400k portfolio with stocks(generated from my salary)and my liquid net worth is double than my girlfriends husbands
than maybe girl is richer anyhow
This game of engagement rings is stupid af!


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

> Strange game.
> The only winning move is not to play.



Who says that because others are being silly, you/I/whoever has to play as well?

As I say, it is tough enough to find someone compatible with similar values to share the rest of one's life with. If a reasonably priced diamond makes then happy, then I don't see it as an issue. If it's a crazy one or the competition is clearly the motivation ... then it's time to re-assess, IMO.


Or to put it another way ... the choices discussed seem to be all black or white where I've known many who don't fit either.


Cheers


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

james4beach said:


> donald, yes that (as you describe) is a concern of mine and _for some women_ ... that's what's happening. ...
> 
> So yes attractive stones and gems can be beautiful and desirable items. *For myself, the part that gives me trouble is the bragging rights or social status, or "display of husband's wealth"... which diamonds in particular seem to exemplify. That strikes me as tacky.
> *
> ...


 ... would it sound tacky if your g/f (or future wife) goes and tell her g/f (or the wives-club) that her b/f (or future hubby) has a $X millions stock portfolio that's going to be shared? :biggrin:


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## AaronJBoxer (Apr 1, 2015)

Brilliant read. Very interesting.


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## MDavey (Jan 15, 2016)

Great read.

In my opinion, I'd rather spend that $30k-$130k wedding price and invest in a house or your future or something! As for the diamond... same thing, it's more the principal of love than the cost of love! 

I've had this talk with too many girls - you can usually tell who's in it for the money or not!


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## ykphil (Dec 13, 2009)

I don't care whatsoever about diamonds but I love people who have money to spare on diamonds, the bigger the better...Thanks to them I have a good job


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

MDavey said:


> ... In my opinion, I'd rather spend that $30k-$130k wedding price and invest in a house or your future or something!
> As for the diamond ... same thing, it's more the principal of love than the cost of love!


Wow ... last wedding I was at was around $12K, all-in.
From what I understand, all the diamond rings involved worked out to 2.9% of his salary.

I suppose he could have redirected to shave the mortgage down by 4.5% off the house. I don't believe it was needed as the house was paid off in five years.


Cheers


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## kewlthing (Jan 30, 2010)

I may be wrong on this too, but I believe this lust for shiny things (particularly diamonds) is a North American, white people, thing. I don't thing regular people in other countries have this issue. Is this a concern in Japan, Sweden, or Peru for example. Maybe someone can enlighten me on this.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

My friend is from Japan and her diamond is 4 caret an even with a jeweler friend must be North of $100,000 ,if you enjoy beautiful things and can afford them why not purchase expensive diamonds ,just don't pay retail please lol


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