# Heat Pumps and Natural gas



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

According to this article, new home heating with Natural Gas will no longer be allowed in Vancouver - it has it's own building code it seems.

We had all-electric heating and had the choice between NG and Heat Pump 10 years ago. We went with the central Misubishi back then and despite electricity costs not increasing as much as we anticipated, the system with it's associated insulation upgrades has now paid for itself. It works just fine down to -23C in our home. System does need to be properly sized for the space to be heated.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/natural-gas-weaning-column-don-pittis-1.6233011


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

Heat pumps are almost always at least a little more expensive than natural gas, which is really, really cheap for heating, even at current prices. You also have the advantage of billions of dollars of infrastructure already in place. In the future, the cost tradeoff will likely sway between artificially increasing the price of natural gas through carbon taxes and/or government restrictions on production, and the increasing cost to expand the electrical network to accommodate a wave of electric cars and electric heating.

If the government throws enough money at rebates, however, they may swing the calculation the other way and perhaps quite substantially. They could also really hammer down on carbon taxes, but there are enough people dependent on natural gas for heat that there is political risk if it goes too far. You already see this in some countries in Europe like Spain and France where they are panicking to drop taxes on home heating, lest the masses revolt.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

If everyone goes heat pumps, then there will be a big strain on generation, despite everyone's best efforts. 

But building envelope improvements will have a very positive effect regardless of the heat source, heat and ac seasons


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Tight building envelopes while very energy efficient are also very unhealthy environments no matter what type of heat exchanges are incorporated.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It would be heresay I think to eventually phase out NG in Western Canada by edict, notwithstanding we have some air headed politicians in places like Vancouver who have not thought out the consequences. More dams and more transmission lines are what I see being needed in Northern BC. AB has a bigger problem. No hydro sites, so their base load would have to come from nuclear power I imagine.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Ponderling said:


> If everyone goes heat pumps, then there will be a big strain on generation, despite everyone's best efforts.
> 
> But building envelope improvements will have a very positive effect regardless of the heat source, heat and ac seasons


What you say is valid. Heat pumps should go hand in hand with greatly improved building envelope design. Much better insulation than current standards and reduced leakage. The link that I posted, I believe proposes that for new construction in Vancouver. Why not in other jurisdictions? Initial focus there is on new construction and on easily converted existing homes. 

The Canadian Home Builders Association is actively promoting Net Zero homes: Net Zero Homes

In the right locations, the Net Zero homes may not _need_ a heat pump! 

It will be just as hard to wean homeowners from NG as it will be to move ICE car owners to EVs. But it does need to happen.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

agent99 said:


> It will be just as hard to wean homeowners from NG as it will be to move ICE car owners to EVs. But it does need to happen.


Likely true. Home owners may get "power anxiety" instead of "range anxiety". Having a small fuel based electric generator for emergencies at a home isn't much of a problem. Of course for those in more northern areas solar isn't really an option.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

"Tight building envelopes while very energy efficient are also very unhealthy environments no matter what type of heat exchanges are incorporated".

While my house built circa 1967 is old enough to not need one, I found working air to air heat exchanger ( has a small amount of fan shake from someone dropping it on the curb i think) on the curb in a newer home area, and brought it home and installed it in a non standard way. 

Cold air from outside to the cold air return of the furnace. Warm air intake is from intakes on the end of the old school photography hobby home basement darkroom. The sink in my darkroom needs a smelly chemical baths sometimes air exhaust, so heck, he heat exchanger makes the situation better. I only run the exchanger when the darkroom has stuff in the processing sink

Plus there is enough leakage even when not running to provide make up air when a big suction happens inside. With tighter windows and doors, and sealed rigid foam wrap on the second floor, make up air becomes important when we get the odd Friday night in winter urge to run the not make up air inherent open fire box wood fireplace. Before this exchanger, there where times when the naturally vented water heater B vent would become the make up air supply, and that is not a good situation if the water tank burner is on. 

Of course the next planned iteration with still keeping a home fire source an option and tightening our envelope is our plan to move to a hearth insert sealed fire box. It will have a coaxial vent that provides its own combustion air source.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

My house my choice of heating it? Or what is the point of calling it my house. Free country no more. In China you can still heat your house with coal.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Ponderling said:


> While my house built circa 1967 is old enough to not need one


We don't have any air to air exchanger. Not having a furnace, we don't develop much suction pressure in house either. The heat pump air handler doesn't draw in outside air. Our air changes would be from chimney effect. 

Our fireplace chimney is closed off and we worked hard at eliminating openings around light and other ceiling fixtures. We passed the energy audit! As it is, the house is old enough to have it's own natural venting! (late 60s for the newest part, pre 50's for original part). Our test ACH number was 6.5 which is quite high by current standards. But this is based on the door fan test with 50Pascals differential pressure (which we don't have).

Covid has resulted in increased energy usage for us - We have not been able to turn down the heating and head South for 3 months!


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

We have a newer build with increased air sealing, and a proper HRV. The concept that a leaky house is better for indoor air quality and energy consumption has been thoroughly debunked by scientists and building science experts.
Our blower door test was 0.80ACH which is not passiv house standards, but close. The HRV is on 20 mins/off 40 mins and is also interconnected with the bathroom fans. Indoor humidity is consistent and at the proper range. Cooking smells and smoke from cooking mistakes dissipate quickly.

There was an auto humidity run option on the HRV that I had to turn off (turns HRV on full time if humidity is above XX%, 50% in our case). That only works well if the humidity outdoors is below 50%, but sometimes in the spring it is not, so it just brings more moist air in.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

I read the UK is firing a coal fired generating plant back up. Renewables aren't keeping up with demand ? I am hoping to build a new home at some point and will likely go back to NG for heat, cooking, water heat, etc. as I find my current all electric home utilities to be substantially more expensive than my last place with NG and electric. I see big increases coming for electrical infrastructure costs as household demand increases. There isn't the infrastructure to support bigger demand for everyone to have EV charging, along with more construction and the costs will be borne by end users.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

The UK did bring a stand by coal plant on line recently. They do still produce some electricity from coal, but not much - something like 2%.

Part of the reason, was apparently because of the shortage of NG and it's skyrocketing price. No idea what long term forecasts here are for consumer NG. Always a big unknown.









UK fires up coal power plant as gas prices soar


An old coal plant has had to be brought back online after a spike in the price of natural gas.



www.bbc.com


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## jmarks (Feb 14, 2012)

agent99 said:


> According to this article, new home heating with Natural Gas will no longer be allowed in Vancouver - it has it's own building code it seems.
> 
> We had all-electric heating and had the choice between NG and Heat Pump 10 years ago. We went with the central Misubishi back then and despite electricity costs not increasing as much as we anticipated, the system with it's associated insulation upgrades has now paid for itself. It works just fine down to -23C in our home. System does need to be properly sized for the space to be heated.
> 
> ...


How effecient is your heat pump?


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

jmarks said:


> How effecient is your heat pump?


Efficiency, unlike a furnace, doesn't mean much with a heat pump. 

Performance is usually quoted at COP (Coef of Performance). For our unit, this is quoted at 3.66 at 8C, 2.06 at -8C and 1.82 at -15C. It will still provide heat down to -23C in our case before it needs supplemental heat. This depends on the home design. 

Here in Southern Ontario, we seem to average a COP of about 2.0 for our winters. This means that the unit has 200% efficiency on average. For every one Kwh you put in, you get two out to heat your house. In comparison, with gas you put 100BTU in and get about 92BTU out for 92% efficiency. Of course gas is still cheaper.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

agent99 said:


> Efficiency, unlike a furnace, doesn't mean much with a heat pump.
> 
> Performance is usually quoted at COP (Coef of Performance). For our unit, this is quoted at 3.66 at 8C, 2.06 at -8C and 1.82 at -15C. It will still provide heat down to -23C in our case before it needs supplemental heat. This depends on the home design.
> 
> Here in Southern Ontario, we seem to average a COP of about 2.0 for our winters. This means that the unit has 200% efficiency on average. For every one Kwh you put in, you get two out to heat your house. In comparison, with gas you put 100BTU in and get about 92BTU out for 92% efficiency. Of course gas is still cheaper.


What unit do you have? Cost? hiw old is it? I have an 11 year old HP. All my neighbours are on propane. My costs actually seem pretty close to theirs. I seem to have less maintenance/routine costs for annual cleaning and inspection which I hear is a must for propane fuel with its high water content.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> What unit do you have? Cost? hiw old is it? I have an 11 year old HP. All my neighbours are on propane. My costs actually seem pretty close to theirs. I seem to have less maintenance/routine costs for annual cleaning and inspection which I hear is a must for propane fuel with its high water content.


We have a Mitsubishi central Zuba. Other than me changing filters it has required zero maintenance in the 10 years it has been in service. It replaced our baseboard heating and our central A/C.


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