# Thoughts on Drummond report



## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

I don't live in Ontario left in the seventies but I know over the years things have gone from bad to worse. The one that sticks out in my mind was the breakup of Hydro. It shocks me to see what people in Ontario pay for power.
16 billion deficit with no change in sight, total provincial debt 411 billion by 2018.
A change in government won't fix the problem so it looks like living in Ontario is about to get very expensive. What services are people willing to give up I would think start with user fee's and see what people pay for, that might get the ball rolling.

What has been the biggest change in the last ten years that put Ontario on this path? Does everyone want to much ?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Daniel A. said:


> I don't live in Ontario left in the seventies but I know over the years things have gone from bad to worse. The one that sticks out in my mind was the breakup of Hydro. It shocks me to see what people in Ontario pay for power.
> 16 billion deficit with no change in sight, total provincial debt 411 billion by 2018.
> A change in government won't fix the problem so it looks like living in Ontario is about to get very expensive. What services are people willing to give up I would think start with user fee's and see what people pay for, that might get the ball rolling.
> 
> What has been the biggest change in the last ten years that put Ontario on this path? Does everyone want to much ?


Yes everyone wants too much.
The problem with the current government is they never said no, and they embarked on many expensive programs that they couldn't afford.

I wonder if this was just a plan to scare people, so that the Liberals can "save us" from "Mike Harris" like cuts. He's the bogeyman they've been waving around for 3 elections, why stop now.


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## LondonHomes (Dec 29, 2010)

Daniel A. said:


> What has been the biggest change in the last ten years that put Ontario on this path? Does everyone want to much ?


The situation in Ontario is not as bad as you describe. If you compare Ontario to Michigan, Ohio or other North Eastern US states that had a similiar economic basis, Ontario comes out ahead.

As to the cost of power, all of the cheap sources have been used up (ie Niagara falls) and as the population continues to grow and demand more power in their daily life (Computers, PVRs, Ipads etc), we are forced to start using more expensive power so the cost rises.

As to the Drummond report. I think that their are some good ideas in it. I doubt that the government will implement them all. Some things will not be touched for election reasons (10% hydro reduction) and others because they makes sense long term (All day Kindergarten).

The biggest things to be addressed are getting the costs of health care down of course, but their didn't seem to be a magic bullet to do this in the report.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

This topic was discussed on the panel discussion on the Lang O'Leary Exchange last night.
Bill Robson quickly brought up the key issue - the 1,000 lbs. gorilla - the fact that majority of the provinces expenses are for wages, pensions, and benefits of the various levels of public sector.
Unless and until we address that core issue, nothing can change.
We can keep chipping away at the edges and nothing will change.

There are of course two ways of addressing that issue - the revenue side and the expense side.
They can keep squeezing the tax payers further and further to pay for all this insanity.
Or they can do something constructive about it.
So far the provincial and various municipal levels of govt. have taken the first approach.

Ontario is to Canada what Greece is to Europe.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

Glad we live in Alberta. Don Drummond is a capable, intelligent guy and it looks like he has come up with most of the good ideas. Too bad he isn't running the government.


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## Dave (Apr 5, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> Ontario is to Canada what Greece is to Europe.


I thought that the worst province by far in Canada was Quebec. It is sad to see that Ontario is going down in a similar path.

Dave

Disclaimer: I live in Quebec right now and can not wait to get out of here.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Most of Ontario's debt is the results of poor Federal policies and decisions.

Ontario would be fine if Harper quit making policy we have to pay for.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

sags said:


> Ontario would be fine if Harper quit making policy we have to pay for.


How about we first start by getting rid of those actually running Ontario for the last 8 years.
The captain of the Costa Ontarioaca.
Harper is the PM of 10 provinces and 3 territories.
It is hard to believe that he has got it in for one specific province, that too not Quebec.

Don't you think the provincial leaders have a lot to answer for first?


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> This topic was discussed on the panel discussion on the Lang O'Leary Exchange last night.
> Bill Robson quickly brought up...the fact that majority of the provinces expenses are for wages, pensions, and benefits of the various levels of public sector...
> We can keep chipping away at the edges and nothing will change.


It needs to be addressed. Even if they make wage freezes, and let inflation help out for a few years.

The profitablity/expenses of the LCBO alone are ridiculous. That alone is worth further investigation.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Recent justice changes have been implemented by the Harper Government, and they expect the Provinces to pay for the extra costs.

Changes to the OAS would mean extra costs to Provincial welfare programs.

Just 2 examples of what has been going on for decades.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Most of Ontario's debt is the results of poor Federal policies and decisions.
> 
> Ontario would be fine if Harper quit making policy we have to pay for.


That's blantant partisan blamemanship.

The minority governments of the past several years didn't force Ontario into a multibillion dollar deficit.

Harper didn't force McGuinty into the expensive labour contracts, unlimited health care spending and expensive programs like full day kindergarten or green energy.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

The OAS changes proposed haven't even been implemented yet.
This was announced barely 10 days ago.

The drunken pillage of Ontario finances has been going on for nearly 8 years now.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I was shocked to learn that prescriptions are fully covered for everyone 65+. I would imagine with the aging population that this is a huge hit to the Ontario budget. Although I myself will one day be 65+ I would still support having higher-income seniors pay their share for prescriptions.

They should of course try to add efficiencies in the government structure as well. When I went to get my passport a few months ago it was just ridiculous. You had to stand in a line to have someone pre-vet your paperwork, then someone else gave you something (I don't remember her purpose, but I remember she was sitting at a folding table in the pre-vetting room for some reason), and finally you took a number and waited for the real person to put through your application.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

Ontario's debt is expected to be close to 50% of it's GDP going forward second only to Quebec.
In low interest times that may seem manageable but a couple of point increase in the future is deadly.
Who will buy Ontario's bonds without a healthy premium when there are better choices. Growth is expected to be flat for a number of years.
Federal policies and decisions affect every province.

Government payroll seems like a good place to start cutting but private industry is already struggling and won't absorb the jobs.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Maybe Ontario can build a new oil pipeline from Fort Mac to Stephen Harper's office. Think about the millions of jobs that will create.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

Spudd said:


> I was shocked to learn that prescriptions are fully covered for everyone 65+. I would imagine with the aging population that this is a huge hit to the Ontario budget. Although I myself will one day be 65+ I would still support having higher-income seniors pay their share for prescriptions.
> 
> They should of course try to add efficiencies in the government structure as well. When I went to get my passport a few months ago it was just ridiculous. You had to stand in a line to have someone pre-vet your paperwork, then someone else gave you something (I don't remember her purpose, but I remember she was sitting at a folding table in the pre-vetting room for some reason), and finally you took a number and waited for the real person to put through your application.


Passports are a federal government job not provincial.
Prescriptions for over 65 are normal in BC PharmaCare.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Ontario public transportation: Electronic fares is passé. The most cost effective solution to letting millions of riders on per day is a couple of unionized employees standing with their arms out at the turnstyle collecting tokens & cash fare in a freezer bag because all the fare boxes are out of service.

Toronto is broke. Ontario is broke. But hey, at least the average property is worth half a milli.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Daniel A. said:


> Who will buy Ontario's bonds without a healthy premium when there are better choices.


Moody's has already placed Ontario on a credit watch.
Ontario's debt per capita is higher than the state of California, which is essentially considered bankrupt at this point and is surviving on life support by the US Fed.

This is Greece, sans the weather and the pretty women 



> Government payroll seems like a good place to start cutting but private industry is already struggling and won't absorb the jobs.


This is known as hidden unemployment.


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## lb71 (Apr 3, 2009)

Daniel A. said:


> What has been the biggest change in the last ten years that put Ontario on this path?


McGuinty. There is not a special interest group he won't say no to.

Interesting stat from the Drummond report. It will take a 17% cut in spending to balance the budget. Harris cut spending 4%, and well, we all know how fondly he was remembered.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

lb71 said:


> Interesting stat from the Drummond report. It will take a 17% cut in spending to balance the budget.


That stat is true within the context of the report, but misleading for the residents and tax payers.
It will require 17% cut in spending _assuming_ the tax hikes proposed in the report are _also_ implemented.
This includes more user fees, even higher hydro rates, more premiums and charges, etc.

What is the % of spending cut required to balance the budget without raising taxes further?
That will tell you how profound the problem is.


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## dogleg (Feb 5, 2010)

Sadly, how long do you think Drummond's report will be topical ? Look at Romanow's health care report that cost millions ; what became of it ? Look at the increases given to the doctors in Ontario and to the cops in Toronto for example .In my city the cops and firemen and city workers were given 3.5% annual increases for five years. Not bad ! They even gave the cops an annual retention payment when every new job posted receives over two hundred applications . Go figure. It is always easy to spend someone else's money. Do you think a minority government is likely to make these cuts ? I doubt it. Cheers.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

All of this is a result of MCG's governing by vote bank rather than by good fiscal management. Easily the worst premier that province has had since Rae.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Easily the worst premier that province has had since Rae.


Aww...you are too kind.
I'd rate him simply as the most corrupt, fiscally irresponsible and incompetent leader at any level (local, state/province, and national), in any country that I have lived in.

We are making history by living under his regime.
We can tell our grandkids.
Write books about it.


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

dogleg said:


> Sadly, how long do you think Drummond's report will be topical ? Look at Romanow's health care report that cost millions ; what became of it ? Look at the increases given to the doctors in Ontario and to the cops in Toronto for example.


True. How much did the doctors and cops get?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Harold, are you counting the BC premiers under that evaluation? Because I think several of them were worse than McGuinty.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

^ OK, good point.
No, I haven't have the [mis]fortune of living under the Campbell regime.
Do you reckon the province of BC will be the pioneers of the carbon tax?
Or will the honour go to Ontario?


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Or will the honour go to Ontario?


I'm guessing ON would be the winner.

How about running for office Harold? I would vote for you!


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I too would vote for Harold. I've seen his ideas and they are brilliant. Good job.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't understand the question, Harold. BC already has a carbon tax.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Drummond offers no real relief

Forget that it's Toronto Sun (I know that many people don't take it seriously, to put it mildly).

John Robson tells it like it is... our government is damn too bloated. Drummond report does nothing to address that. Tinkering at the edges is all we can expect out of it.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Robson doesn't feel brave enough to attack Drummond's character straight on, so he tries to hide it behind his reference to Mr.Drummond's past political service.

Robson should remember that Ontarians already had this discussion and bounced Tim Hudak's PCs, when it looked like he was a shoe in winner.

Cutting the civil service sounds like a great idea, until you have to wait 6 extra weeks to collect unemployment, or wait an extra 10 hours to see a doctor in the emergency ward, or can't close an estate because the CRA are a year behind in paperwork.

In Ontario, people would rather discuss how to raise government revenues than cut services.

Ontario could start by demanding their fair share of transfer payments from the Federal Government.

Ontario has been getting the shaft for decades............and still doesn't receive a full fair share.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

sags said:


> Ontario has been getting the shaft for decades............and still doesn't receive a full fair share.


Cry me a river! The big problem is that the ROC subsidizes Quebec. Other than that Ontario has made out extremely well in Confederation. Why have we built big pipelines to Ontario to carry cheap western crude and gas? And Freight rates to encourage raw materials to be shipped east so that finished goods can be shipped west? 

It is because the voters in Ontario carry the election. By the time the results in the west are counted, it is an afterthought.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Dave said:


> I thought that the worst province by far in Canada was Quebec. It is sad to see that Ontario is going down in a similar path.
> 
> Dave
> 
> Disclaimer: I live in Quebec right now and can not wait to get out of here.


I agree with Dave here. Quebec should blow up before Ontario. It is implementing stuff that Ontario should implement, so Ontario can have a glimpse at how each policy works.

I took a look at Quebec's government balance sheet out of curiosity when they announced the coming 3% consumption tax. Then promptly got the hell out of there.

On further thought, everyone who was part of my entrepreneurial circle and non French speaking got out of Quebec as well (I was the last batch). They left for various different reasons, but you can also see it as the province isn't offering an attractive enough business environment for them to stay anymore. The French speaking entrepreneurs I know are mostly in business that are location based, therefore cannot move. So this might be a thing to come for Ontario.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

I know Don Drummond quite well. He is a very ethical, hard working guy that I respect very much. He is pragmatic and practical. In all the years I have known him he has never espoused a political position although I suspect he may be slightly left of centre but not much.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

sags said:


> Robson doesn't feel brave enough to attack Drummond's character straight on, so he tries to hide it behind his reference to Mr.Drummond's past political service.


Robson's reference to Drummond's past political service is actually a compliment to Drummond. Robson acknowledges Drummond's credentials as a deficit slayer at the federal level.

You don't feel strong enough to counter Robson's arguments about government bloat. So you resort to misrepresenting Robson's position. Straw man argument at its best (or worst).



sags said:


> Robson should remember that Ontarians already had this discussion and bounced Tim Hudak's PCs, when it looked like he was a shoe in winner.


Actually, we didn't have a chance to have this discussion. Voters didn't know the true shape of province finances before Drummond's report.

Aside from that, our bloated public service knows who butters their bread. I bet the vast majority of Ontario public servants voted for "tax and spend" McGuinty. Yet he only squeaked in by a single seat. 

I wonder what would it take to vote McGuinty out. A crisis of Greek proportions?



sags said:


> Cutting the civil service sounds like a great idea, until you have to wait 6 extra weeks to collect unemployment, or wait an extra 10 hours to see a doctor in the emergency ward, or can't close an estate because the CRA are a year behind in paperwork.


Yeah, yeah, the life as we know it will cease to exist the moment we cut one precious civil servant. I wonder how we survived 8 years ago before McGuinty got elected. Life must have been absolutely terrible back then. After all, Ontario program spending was 44 billion dollars below its current level.

Why is it always okay to expand public spending? But never okay to contract it? Forget about contracting. Why is not okay to freeze it?



sags said:


> In Ontario, people would rather discuss how to raise government revenues than cut services.


Agree with you there. Ontarians love new taxes.


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## Brad911 (Apr 19, 2009)

I thought most of the report was appriopriate and objective. Some the recommendations won't be implented (reality & political suicide), but they asked him to find savings and he did. You can't fault him & his team for pointing out the obvious.


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## Ethan (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't understand why anyone is hung up on Mr. Drummond's $1,500/day salary. Thats a bargain for someone with his CV. Try getting a lawyer or CA for less than that.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

kcowan said:


> Cry me a river! The big problem is that the ROC subsidizes Quebec. Other than that Ontario has made out extremely well in Confederation. Why have we built big pipelines to Ontario to carry cheap western crude and gas? And Freight rates to encourage raw materials to be shipped east so that finished goods can be shipped west?
> 
> It is because the voters in Ontario carry the election. By the time the results in the west are counted, it is an afterthought.


Alberta and BC benefitted greatly from confederation, too. Alberta was desperately poor until oil was discovered there. 

And the complaint about elections being decided in Ontario before the polls close in BC is absolute nonsense. This favourite complaint drives me nuts. Every riding counts the same, why should it make any difference which order they are counted in. Would it make people in BC feel better if the ballot boxes in Ontario remained sealed until the result from BC were tabulated? Or should Ontarians not receive as much representation as their population warrants? Which is it? Neither make sense to me.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Brad911 said:


> Some the recommendations won't be implented (reality & political suicide)


All the fee and tax increases will be implemented (and then some).
Many of the service cuts will be implemented.
Almost no changes to the outrageous public sector monstrosity will be implemented.

Asking the current regime (McG & Duncan) to make these changes is like putting the fox in charge of the hen house.
Or the alcoholic to run the bar.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Germany is cutting solar-power subsidies because they are expensive and inefficient

Drummond made the same recommendation.
Will McGuinty implement it? (and effectively admit his own mistake)
Can he actually get us out of the long-term feed in tariff contracts?


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

It is not just Germany.
The Netherlands is now stuck with these huge offshore wind farms they created.
The projects have been an absolute financial hog, not the mention an ugly monstrosity.
At this point, they will _pay_ to make the problem disappear.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Kcowan is of course right on and we out west have been badly ripped off by the easterners over the decades. Albertans have taken the worst of it and it is just a simple fact. We don't cry about it very much out west which we should probably do and that is our problem such as it is. 

On the report Diane Francis of the Financial Post was mentioning that the budget deficit should be capped with agreed upon emergency measures and the public should have to vote if they want to go further into debt to pay the demands of teachers or whoever. This would take the decision out of the politicians hands and then the union will have to come up with budget cut ideas putting the decision more on them. I may have said it wrong but this might be a good idea.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

dogcom said:


> the public should have to vote if they want to go further into debt to pay the demands of teachers or whoever. This would take the decision out of the politicians hands


But DG, the people of Ontario _have_ voted for precisely that - and as recently as 4 months ago.

The people have voted for the status quo to continue (i.e. more and more debt/deficit for outrageous benefits and palm greasing of special groups).

The current administration's policies have been voted for not once, not twice, but three times over a period of 8 years.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

If the people did vote for it then I suppose they have themselves to blame for the problems that come with to much debt and deficits. Maybe what is needed is a better sales job and better wording like having the deficit from higher teacher pay put on the teachers for example to find the cuts so everyone looks at them instead of the politicians.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Most recent labour data in Ontario:

http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/labr66g-eng.htm

Total employment: 6.75m

Public sector employment: 1.33m (includes all 3 levels of government)

Public sector share: *19.7%*

No wonder McGuinty won 3 times in a row. Public sector employees must be loving his policies. 19.7% voting as a block is more than enough to sway the elections.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

Ethan said:


> I don't understand why anyone is hung up on Mr. Drummond's $1,500/day salary. Thats a bargain for someone with his CV. Try getting a lawyer or CA for less than that.


No kidding. His fee is laughable. I read that he worked many more days than he charged for as well.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

GoldStone said:


> No wonder McGuinty won 3 times in a row. Public sector employees must be loving his policies. 19.7% voting as a block is more than enough to sway the elections.


Esp. when you consider that overall voter turnout was barely 36%.
You also need to include the quasi public sector and private sector unions, who have a direct line into the premier's office.

Not to forget the huge propaganda campaign on the eve of the elections by the teachers' and public sector boards to support the MCG campaign.
Some of our good friends are teachers, and they were told at their union meetings to vote for MCG.
I forget the exact amount contributed by this group, but it was over $2M.
There were huge advertising boards along the Go Transit and TTC lines with their election propaganda.
VoteForChildren.org or something like that.


The last thing we need is for out of control spendthrift governments to tell us how to raise our kids, and what is good for us and what is not.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I doubt Tim Hudak's initial double digit popularity at the beginning of the election campaign was the result of public service workers support.

His epic failure was due to his own supporters reaction to some of his proposed changes.

PCs were left pondering what could have been.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

sags,

Tim Hudak is a non-issue.

Stop looking for a bogey man. Or a straw man.

Look at YOUR man. Dalton _"spend money we don't have like a drunken sailor"_ McGuinty.

He is the one responsible for putting us in the deep hole.


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