# Proposed class action lawsuit against TD asset management



## latebuyer

Hopefully this hasn't been posted. If a duplicate, my apologies. There is a proposed class action lawsuit against td asset management for trailing commissions. Clients are being charged even if they use a discount brokerage. Since the trailing commissions are for advice and discount brokerages can't offer advice this isn't right.

If you've held a td mutual fund at td direct investing, there is a link to sign up to receive updates here:

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releas...sions-paid-to-discount-brokers-679152323.html

I actually held td monthly income here before so I was interested. I think Mawer funds have a trailing commission too but i'm not sure if that is included.


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## humble_pie

shouldn't the class be suing the broker though

the fund management company doesn't deal with any UBO, no matter whether they are clients of a discount broker or clients of the most expensive advisor in the world.

.


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## scorpion_ca

Does TDB8150 TD Investment Savings Account qualify for this class action? Regardless, I have signed up to receive more info. 

I was surprised to see in my December, 2017 statement that TDDI received trailing fees for that fund.


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## latebuyer

Good question. I found this in the terms and conditions of the hisa

Dealer Compensation
The Bank may pay, monthly or quarterly, compensation to your
Dealer at an annual rate of up to 0.25% of the daily closing balance
in the TD ISA

However, this is the disclaimer it says on a mutual fund

The trailing commission is an ongoing commission. It is paid for as long as you own the fund. It is for the services and advice that your representative and their firm provide to you.
TDAM pays the trailing commission to your representative's firm, including a discount broker. It is paid from the fund's management fee and is based on the value of your investment. The
rate is 0.00% to 0.50% of the value of your investment each year. This equals $0.00 to $5.00 each year for every $1,000 invested.

So it sounds to me that maybe it doesn't but worth trying.


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## AltaRed

All mutual funds except from the likes of Mawer, Beutal Goodman, Leith Wheeler and a few others pay trailer fees to the sales channel, except Advisor (F) class and some other (institutional?) classes, whether discount brokerage or full service. That includes 25bp for ISAs...yes indeed!

There have been representations made to CSC and OSC to make F class (0 trailer fee) available to DIYers with discount brokerage accounts. It has fallen on totally deaf ears. Canadians are generally f*cked relative to Brits or Americans on the fee issue.


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## OptsyEagle

They say advice and services. So they will consider providing the fund to you as the service as well as various other reporting tasks and provide you with an ability to see the daily values of your account, etc., etc., etc. 

I suspect the industry will fight this one, as opposed to simply paying the lawyers off with a small token payment, since it creates a precedence that I am sure they do not want.


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## latebuyer

That's a good point. I recall at one point I had what was classified as a td waterhouse account specifically for mutual funds (you couldn't trade stocks). Without these trailing fees, they would make no money as I had over the minimum requirement. They would have to find some other way to make up the fees if they couldn't use trailing fees.

Oops! Forgot about mers.


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## OptsyEagle

TD Waterhouse does not get the MER, TD Asset Management does. Of course the trailer fees are part of the MER but that is the fee that is currently in dispute.

In my opinion, this lawsuit has absolutely no merit We can argue all day long about how much a discount broker should get for a trailer fee but I don't think the argument for nothing is very reasonable. Your secure online accessed trading platform is not free and never will be.


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## AltaRed

Discount brokers don't get anything other than a commission for a stock purchase. Why should mutual funds be different?


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## latebuyer

I just reread the wording:
It is for the services and advice that your representative and their firm provide to you.
TDAM pays the trailing commission to your representative's firm, including a discount broker.

So you are right it specifies specifically TD Direct Investing who is offering services but not advice.

It seems to me the solution is to reword it. Right now it says the discount broker offers service and advice and they don't offer advice.


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## OptsyEagle

AltaRed said:


> Discount brokers don't get anything other than a commission for a stock purchase. Why should mutual funds be different?


As I said, we could discuss how much of a fee they deserve and never come to an agreement. I have always suspected that the stock trading business was set up as an almost loss leader to get at the other business. Primarily mutual fund trailers, high interest savings accounts, IPOs and of course day traders are great for the bottom line.

I doubt TD makes very much on a stock/ETF account that doesn't have any mutual funds or HISA and only makes 3 or 4 trades a year. Actually I know they don't make any money on it.

So if they lose trailer fees on mutual funds I cannot imagine they would not need to charge something more for stock/ETF accounts. Just my opinion, of course.


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## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> ......... I have always suspected that the stock trading business was set up as an almost loss leader to get at the other business. Primarily mutual fund trailers, high interest savings accounts, IPOs and of course day traders are great for the bottom line.


Don't forget the rather large amount of commissions that the brokers get for GIC's. This has only been on yearly statements for the last year or so. It made my jaw drop the first time I saw how much it was on my account.

ltr


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## latebuyer

Off topic, but i'm afraid they'll raise commission fees with more millenials buying etfs. I don't remember the percentage buying etfs but it was quite large.


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## kcowan

Watch for the discount brokers to add some fees to buy and hold clients. TDDI gets nothing except $9.99 once in a while during rebalancing. They know but have just not decided how to charge us...yet.


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## AltaRed

Maybe, or maybe not. I doubt few DIYers with discount brokerage accounts hold much in the way of mutual funds with trailer fees in their accounts to begin with.


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## kcowan

I am talking about all holdings, especially individual stocks and ETFs. They hold all my money and cannot loan it out because it is not margined. I suspect they might introduce a charge for not allowing true margin accounts.


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## AltaRed

kcowan said:


> I am talking about all holdings, especially individual stocks and ETFs. They hold all my money and cannot loan it out because it is not margined. I suspect they might introduce a charge for not allowing true margin accounts.


Clearly they make no money off me. About $50 per year in commissions and even then, less than that since I get free use of their real time trading software at my level of holdings. I've never had a margin account and never would, partly for the reasons you mention.


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## like_to_retire

kcowan said:


> Watch for the discount brokers to add some fees to buy and hold clients. TDDI gets nothing except $9.99 once in a while during rebalancing. They know but have just not decided how to charge us...yet.


But they do get the continuous cash flow from HISA's and GIC's, and then trading commissions on top of that. A lot of people hold GIC's. It seems like it would be a tidy sum to me since those cash flows aren't a one time charge, it goes on and on.

ltr


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## AltaRed

Yes, I forgot! Scotia iTrade does get some revenue from GICs in my RRSP. That is a lucrative business.

Added: From my 2017 Cost Report from iTrade, $300 in 2017 for GIC puchases and $50 commission for 2 bonds. I have 10-12 entries in my RRSP ladder.


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## OptsyEagle

I believe GICs pay about 0.25% per year of term to the broker. So, compared to 1.0% per year for mutual funds, they are not overly lucrative, but revenue all the same.

I think the discount industry started to move towards "D" class funds. The d standing for discounted MERs. I know RBC has a lot of their own funds under d-class but another broker (I think itrade but not sure) has a slew of funds that are offered to their clients under the d-class that are not even Scotiabank funds. Not as cheap as F-class but I doubt they are going to want to offer funds at zero revenue. Even a trading commission is not enough. If one buys $20,000 worth of stock at $10 commission it is only 0.05%, not annually, but once with the happy thought that they may get the opportunity to make another $10 on the eventual sale. As I said, that is most likely a loss leader to get at all the other business and if you take away one of the more lucrative side businesses (mutual fund trailers) they will probably need to change their fee structure on most others.

Since I don't use mutual funds I am happy the way it is.


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## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> I believe GICs pay about 0.25% per year of term to the broker. So, compared to 1.0% per year for mutual funds, they are not overly lucrative, but revenue all the same.


If I consider an older retired person with a $2M portfolio and a [70 fixed/30 equity] allocation, and the fixed income all in GIC's (which is quite common), then the fee from those GIC's is $3500 a year. If they had bonds, then the broker would make money on the spread.

I think discount brokers do quite well.

ltr


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## christinad

I think i read somewhere that there are a lot more people with stocks then etfs in a discount brokerage. The stock people are subsidizing the etf people. Having said that i was appalled to learn on my end of year statement that i spent 139.00 on trades.

I was looking at my statement and i had 20.00 in trailing commissions i assume for a beutel goodman mutual fund i hold. Thats not a lot but i only hold 10,000 so it could add up.


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## AltaRed

christinad said:


> The stock people are subsidizing the etf people.


An ETF trades like a stock with the same commissions except with a few brokerages like iTrade that trade certain ETFs free....or Questrade(?) that has commission free purchases? That is not much of a subsidization in the overall scheme of things.


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## christinad

I wish i could find the article. What i meant is if more people are trading stocks TD is making more commisions off them. As well, certainly etfs arent't day traded like stock s are i assume.


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## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> I believe GICs pay about 0.25% per year of term to the broker. So, compared to 1.0% per year for mutual funds, they are not overly lucrative, but revenue all the same.


I know we're discussing fees and commissions, but I wonder if the GIC is more highly prized over mutual funds by the investment arm of the brokerage. 

The GIC is committed 5 year money that the brokerage only needs to pay ~ 3% to the holder, yet they can then commit those funds to investment at a much higher return over the full 5 years. With a mutual fund or HISA, the holder can ask for the money back tomorrow.

ltr


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## AltaRed

The brokerage has nothing to do with the GICs. They simply are the custodian and they collect a commission from the issuer to handle the transaction. The brokerage has nothing to do with HISAs either. The only thing the brokerage can take advantage of is spare cash sitting in your account earning nothing for you.


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## like_to_retire

AltaRed said:


> The brokerage has nothing to do with the GICs. They simply are the custodian and they collect a commission from the issuer to handle the transaction. The brokerage has nothing to do with HISAs either. The only thing the brokerage can take advantage of is spare cash sitting in your account earning nothing for you.


That wouldn't be the case for TD GIC's I suppose.

ltr


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## AltaRed

like_to_retire said:


> That wouldn't be the case for TD GIC's I suppose.
> 
> ltr


TD DI is just the custodian of TD GICs. It would be TD Mortgage, TD Bank, or any of the other TD issuers that re-invest the money you paid for those GICs.


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## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> If I consider an older retired person with a $2M portfolio and a [70 fixed/30 equity] allocation, and the fixed income all in GIC's (which is quite common), then the fee from those GIC's is $3500 a year. If they had bonds, then the broker would make money on the spread.
> 
> I think discount brokers do quite well.
> 
> ltr


I don't think moving the account size up to an "above average" size is a proper way to decide whether a fee level is appropriate or not. The bottom line is that a discount broker makes 0.25% per year on GICs and currently make 1.0% of mutual funds and as I said, almost nothing on stocks and ETFs.

I am sure if everyone of their customers promised to deposit $2,000,000 into their accounts, they might be willing to lower their percentage fee.


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## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> I know we're discussing fees and commissions, but I wonder if the GIC is more highly prized over mutual funds by the investment arm of the brokerage.
> 
> The GIC is committed 5 year money that the brokerage only needs to pay ~ 3% to the holder, yet they can then commit those funds to investment at a much higher return over the full 5 years. With a mutual fund or HISA, the holder can ask for the money back tomorrow.
> 
> ltr


Yes. We are talking about the broker not the bank. The broker makes 0.25% per year. The bank makes over 2% or more each year. These days they are making as much or more then the person who supplies the money. Funny how no one ever complains about that but that 1% trailer seems to get in everyone's crow, everytime. I guess it is because the mutual funds have to disclose their take and the banks are allowed free enterprise. Buyer beware. You are required to look a little harder to figure out how much they are taking.


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## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> I don't think moving the account size up to an "above average" size is a proper way to decide whether a fee level is appropriate or not. The bottom line is that a discount broker makes 0.25% per year on GICs and currently make 1.0% of mutual funds and as I said, almost nothing on stocks and ETFs.


Yeah, I don't know if the fee level is appropriate or not. I sure don't know what an average portfolio size is. It was just an example to show that I think the brokers do quite well with the fees they're charging. I think retired people populate their portfolios with GIC's at a much larger percentage than with mutual funds. I would think as people age, they feel they need to increase their fixed income. That increase likely comes with the purchase of more GIC's. That's good for the brokerage.

Sorry if I don't know the average portfolio size. It was just an uneducated guess. I don't have knowledge of a lot of examples to work from.

ltr


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## OptsyEagle

It's difficult to say about profitability. Remember, no matter how big your account is the broker needs to provide absolute security to your accounts. That requires an extensive online security network, also a secure feed to the various stock exchanges, a feed to the mutual fund companies, even a feed to the banks for GICs. All of these need not only to be of the highest security, but anything the customers uses directly, it needs to be very user friendly and without error. From there you can start to see the kind of technology costs they must bear.

Next you have to supply statements, record keeping and the ability to make deposits and withdrawals and once in a while you need someone to answer the phone when your customer calls.

Lastly, you need a compliance department. You also need a legal department because about every 10 to 15 years you usually are required to write a cheque for $50 million or so to either the OSC for some fine or to a bunch of lawyers who drum up some way to make themselves some money. In either case, these costs need to be paid for.

Now that being said, once you spend the money to create the above, how costly is one more account. Probably not all that costly and therefore the fees from it start to increase the bottom line nicely but is that the proper way to look at fees. Obviously not.

Anyway, I don't own or work for a discount broker, but I like to think I have a fairly open mind about the true costs of the services I require. I am not sure everyone does though. People can quickly forget, when they log on to their accounts, without the help of anyone at the broker, how much money and work someone at that broker did to allow them to "Do It Themselves".


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## AltaRed

Off-tangent and not related to this thread, but LTR brought up an interesting question. I wonder what the bell curve looks like for size of non-reg and RRSP/RRIF accounts. Tightly guarded secret I imagine.


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## like_to_retire

AltaRed said:


> Off-tangent and not related to this thread, but LTR brought up an interesting question. I wonder what the bell curve looks like for size of non-reg and RRSP/RRIF accounts. Tightly guarded secret I imagine.


My original response to OptsyEagle wasn't without at least a cursory thought process (although I guess Optsy thought I was exaggerating to the extreme). It wasn't my intention.

I figured there were a bunch of outliers in the retired crowd that had portfolios below a million, and a bunch of rich guys above 3 million, but the majority must be in-between 1 and 3 million? 
I just picked 2 million as an average. Is it really so far out of line?

And then I picked a conservative 70% fixed income / 30% equity allocation as an average for the older retired crowd. An aggressive allocation of 30% fixed income / 70% equity is for the younger crowd, and the balanced 50% fixed income / 50% equity is for those approaching retirement and those in retirement that are a bit more aggressive. 

Who knows, maybe I'm way off base here, but I don't feel 2 million is too far off the discount brokerage portfolio size for those retired and living off their investments. Maybe Optsy has inside information he can share with us?

ltr


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## AltaRed

I suspect the average (i.e. peak on the bell curve) account (setting aside TFSAs for the moment due to short history) is only low 6 digit. Assuming most Canadians have preferentially saved via RRSPs...... https://www.quora.com/How-much-do-Canadians-have-in-their-RRSP

The outliers are those of us with significant non-reg accounts. Have no idea if these are the 1%ers, or 10%ers, or?


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## fireseeker

These data are American, and for brokers, but it suggests client accounts are on the smaller side:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lawrencelight/2013/09/11/myth-financial-advisors-are-only-for-the-rich/#240494265255


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## like_to_retire

AltaRed said:


> I suspect the average (i.e. peak on the bell curve) account (setting aside TFSAs for the moment due to short history) is only low 6 digit.


Well, there's some sort of disconnect there. Low 6 figures = $250,000 times 4% = $10,000 yearly income. Really - that's what the average is retiring on?

ltr


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## MrMatt

They tell you how much in fees they're charging you, it's up to you to decide if that is worth it or not.

They didn't misrepresent anything, and they don't know what type of advise your broker is providing. 

Also some brokers refund those trailing commissions to you.

I guess I really don't understand this suit.


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## AltaRed

LTR, you might be surprised many are living on CPP and OAS, and perhaps a DB pension for those lucky enough to have been part of a DB plan. Plug in 65+ here https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl...[1]=2.8&pickMembers[2]=3.1&pickMembers[3]=4.1 and you get average of $37.2k and median of $26.9k. Clearly some HNW individuals like some of us DIYers here push the average up well above the median.

Maximum CPP + OAS is $20,649.96 for 2018 forming the bulk of that median/average number.


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## OptsyEagle

Yeah. What you need and what you have will usually be different numbers. I think the majority of retired Canadians do not live solely on their savings. 

Keep in mind that wealth in a society is always pyramid shaped. I can't say the ratio but I suspect you will find that there are at least a 1000 people with $10,000 to invest for every person with $100,000 to invest. There are probably 10,000 people with $100,000 to invest for every person with $1,000,000 to invest and so on.

If our society did not have this pyramid type system of wealth, then there would be no wealth at all for anyone. Money is only as good as its ability to convince someone else to do something for you or give you something that is theirs. That is all wealth is and will ever be. If everyone had that $2,000,000 to invest, it would not be worth much.

So with all that said, the wealthy customers subsidize the customers with much less money. It has pretty much always been this way. Some firms, who have done that analysis on profitability of different account sizes, have tried to entice the wealthy to them, with special deals etc., but at the end of the day, there just is not enough of them to make it work.


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## kcowan

My point was that I think many clients subsidize the brokers. I buy stocks and hold them and I buy bonds and Convertible Debentures at IPO. I think I am minimizing my fees. Granted the bond issuers pay them at IPO but I don't. I am just musing that I might be in for some further fees. I am probably their worst client even though my portfolio is very large?


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## james4beach

AltaRed said:


> All mutual funds except from the likes of Mawer, Beutal Goodman, Leith Wheeler and a few others pay trailer fees to the sales channel, except Advisor (F) class and some other (institutional?) classes, whether discount brokerage or full service. That includes 25bp for ISAs...yes indeed!
> 
> There have been representations made to CSC and OSC to make F class (0 trailer fee) available to DIYers with discount brokerage accounts. It has fallen on totally deaf ears. Canadians are generally f*cked relative to Brits or Americans on the fee issue.


I'm just digging up old threads here. Wanted to bring attention to the fact that this class action has now been certified against TD. The broker tried to have the case dismissed, but this was very recently dismissed by the court. As the kids say, "S*** just got real"

This document is actually a good read, from Justice Belobaba of the Ontario Superior Court of Justice:


https://www.siskinds.com/cmsfiles/PDF/Securities/MutualFunds/TD-Cert-Decision-and-Order.pdf



This could be pretty huge. Maybe there will be a big settlement. TD has collected a significant amount of trailing fees from @AltaRed , myself and many other CMF'ers over the years.


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## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I'm just digging up old threads here. Wanted to bring attention to the fact that this class action has now been certified against TD. The broker tried to have the case dismissed, but this was very recently dismissed by the court. As the kids say, "S*** just got real"
> 
> This document is actually a good read, from Justice Belobaba of the Ontario Superior Court of Justice:
> 
> 
> https://www.siskinds.com/cmsfiles/PDF/Securities/MutualFunds/TD-Cert-Decision-and-Order.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> This could be pretty huge. Maybe there will be a big settlement. TD has collected a significant amount of trailing fees from @AltaRed , myself and many other CMF'ers over the years.


You're complaining about fees you willingly paid.
The only TD funds I have are eFunds for a reason.


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## AltaRed

I've not had mutual funds* that pay trailer fees for a very long time. The discussion, including representations I (and a number of conscientious portfolio managers) have written to OSC and CSC over the last 10 years, is that since discount brokerages cannot provide advice, there is zero reason for mutual fund companies to pay trailer fees to discount brokerages. F class funds normally only sold through investment advisors to clients should also be available to DIY investors. It is the investment advisory industry that has resisted the change, e.g .the IG group, Raymond James, etc, etc.

The industry responded by making D class funds available more broadly to discount brokerages to try and deflect the target on their backs but that really is not good enough. Until trailer fees stop entirely for DIY investors at discount brokerages, we will not have won the battle.

* The exception still being ISAs sold as mutual funds....which still pay a 25bp trailer fee. We should be able to buy F class ISAs. I have eliminated this as much as possible by having no cash in taxable accounts ISAs. All such cash is at online digital banks. It is only in registered accounts where that is not practical.


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## GreatLaker

MrMatt said:


> ...
> The only TD funds I have are eFunds for a reason.


I believe a trail commission is paid to dealers for TD eSeries mutual funds. 

P.31 of the Simplified Prospectus states that a 0.25% trail commission is payable on all eSeries index funds.
Prospectus (td.com)


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## MrMatt

GreatLaker said:


> I believe a trail commission is paid to dealers for TD eSeries mutual funds.
> 
> P.31 of the Simplified Prospectus states that a 0.25% trail commission is payable on all eSeries index funds.
> Prospectus (td.com)


Yes, e-series have low fees, that's why I use them.


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## AltaRed

There are, of course, some mutual fund families like Mawer who do not pay trailer fees at all. Mawer, as an example, still calls them Class A so as not to run afoul of the 'triggers' at dealers (such as discount brokerages).


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## AltaRed

MrMatt said:


> Yes, e-series have low fees, that's why I use them.


I think it is more a case of low MER, not necessarily trailer fee.


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## MrMatt

AltaRed said:


> I think it is more a case of low MER, not necessarily trailer fee.


Trailer fee is included in the MER.

I agreed to pay <0.5% MER for the fund, they provided the fund for the agreed MER.
Sure they paid the listing institution trailer fees to cover whatever costs/profit they have, that's really none of my business.

But they were completely above board on what they were charging me, and I consented.

I paid for a product/service, and paid the agreed fee. That should be the end of the story.


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## AltaRed

What is your point? It should be your business as to why an 'advisory fee' is being paid to a discount broker which is prohibited by law to provide advice to clients.

Everyone is agreeing to whatever MER the funds advertise when they are bought. Management fees, commissions by asset managers, trading expense ratio, trailer fee, all which make up the MER. That is not the issue.

The issue is that if there were no trailer fees paid by those e-series funds, they would have even lower MERs. That is what the class action suit is all about (points 5 and 6 in the Background section of the litigation).


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## MrMatt

AltaRed said:


> What is your point? It should be your business as to why an 'advisory fee' is being paid to a discount broker which is prohibited by law to provide advice to clients.
> 
> Everyone is agreeing to whatever MER the funds advertise when they are bought. Management fees, commissions by asset managers, trading expense ratio, trailer fee, all which make up the MER. That is not the issue.
> 
> The issue is that if there were no trailer fees paid by those e-series funds, they would have even lower MERs. That is what the class action suit is all about (points 5 and 6 in the Background section of the litigation).


My point is we all agreed to pay the fees, now a bunch of whiners are going back on their agreement.


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## Thal81

This trailing commissions are defined in the various eSeries fund facts documents as follows :

"More about the trailing commission
The trailing commission is an ongoing commission. It is paid for as long as you own the fund. It is for the services and advice that your representative and their firm provide to you.
TDAM pays the trailing commission to your representative's firm, including a discount broker. It is paid from the fund's management fee and is based on the value of your investment. The rate is* 0.00% to 0.25%* of the value of your investment each year. This equals $0.00 to $2.50 each year for every $1,000 invested."

So, basically we should not be paying this if we're not receiving advice (which we don't, either by holding through TDAM directly or via a discount broker). However, TDDI and other brokers need an incentive to offer these products, because you know, they need to pay their bills too. Do they get any other type of compensation?

*edit*: If you hold eSeries through a TD mutual funds account, you can see the dollar amount of those commissions at the end of each quarterly statement. Looking at old statements, it seems the percentage hovers around 0.12%, give or take. I don't see similar info on TDDI monthly statements.


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## MrMatt

Thal81 said:


> This trailing commissions are defined in the various eSeries fund facts documents as follows :
> 
> "More about the trailing commission
> The trailing commission is an ongoing commission. It is paid for as long as you own the fund. It is for the services and advice that your representative and their firm provide to you.
> TDAM pays the trailing commission to your representative's firm, including a discount broker. It is paid from the fund's management fee and is based on the value of your investment. The rate is 0.00% to 0.25% of the value of your investment each year. This equals $0.00 to $2.50 each year for every $1,000 invested."
> 
> So, basically we should not be paying this if we're not receiving advice (which we don't, either by holding through TDAM directly or via a discount broker). However, TDDI and other brokers need an incentive to offer these products, because you know, they need to pay their bills too. Do they get any other type of compensation?


You get services from your broker, the website, authentication, statements.
It is paid from the trailer fee, as disclosed.

There are brokers who will refund some of the trailer fees back to you if you want, you can use these brokers.
No basically you should be paying it, because you agreed to pay it as a condition of the purchase.


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## AltaRed

Thal81 said:


> *edit*: If you hold eSeries through a TD mutual funds account, you can see the dollar amount of those commissions at the end of each quarterly statement. Looking at old statements, it seems the percentage hovers around 0.12%, give or take. I don't see similar info on TDDI monthly statements.


All brokerages and advisor channels must disclose fees they have received from third parties as part of CRM2 disclosures, at least once a year. Some brokerages might do it on a quarterly basis, but they have to do it at least annually (either as part of the December statement, or via separate document).


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## AltaRed

MrMatt said:


> My point is we all agreed to pay the fees, now a bunch of whiners are going back on their agreement.


That is true but the issue is of much broader concern (across the industry) in terms of how retail investors at large are getting ripped off for services they never received. The advisory channel is supposed to use F class, or similar, products so that there is no double dipping, i.e. advisors getting paid as % of AUM plus collecting trailer fees from products they sell. If one is DIY, there is no advice being given. Hence there should not be an embedded fee for advice that cannot be given and DIY investors should have the same access to F class funds as advisors. Activism is necessary to rid the system of double dipping, parasitical behaviour, etc.


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## MrMatt

AltaRed said:


> That is true but the issue is of much broader concern (across the industry) in terms of how retail investors at large are getting ripped off for services they never received. The advisory channel is supposed to use F class, or similar, products so that there is no double dipping, i.e. advisors getting paid as % of AUM plus collecting trailer fees from products they sell. If one is DIY, there is no advice being given. Hence there should not be an embedded fee for advice that cannot be given and DIY investors should have the same access to F class funds as advisors. Activism is necessary to rid the system of double dipping, parasitical behaviour, etc.


Yes, also clients should demand it.
Finally a lot of people would rather pay 0.25% in trailer fees than cut a check for $100/yr in monthly statements.


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## james4beach

I received a response from the law firm about whether ISAs would be included in this class action:

"We appreciate your inquiry, but our current mutual fund class action does not cover Investment Savings Accounts."

Oh well.


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## james4beach

AltaRed said:


> Activism is necessary to rid the system of double dipping, parasitical behaviour, etc.


A quick update. The class actions against both TD and BMO have been certified.

Here's the certification order for the BMO class action (somewhat recent). This is a very wide scope:

"All persons, wherever they may reside or be domiciled, who held or hold, *at any time on or prior to May 18, 2021*, units of a BMO Mutual Fund through a Discount Broker"









Mutual Fund Trailing Commissions Class Action - Siskinds Law Firm


Information regarding the mutual fund trailing commissions class action.




www.siskinds.com


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## latebuyer

I received a notification of certification for the td lawsuit. There is just an opt out form if you don’t want to participate.


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