# Paradise Papers



## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

*The Paradise Papers - Tax Evasion by the Wealthy*

Oops, did I say 'tax evasion'? Surely I meant 'completely legal tax planning'.
Makes me want to puke.

We'll be reading lots about this file. Will the Feds do anything? Unlikely. Our best hope is that the IRS, who are more inclined to be sharks on these matters will followup. Of course that means any payments will stay south of the border.

_an investigation by the CBC, Radio-Canada and the Toronto Star has found that Bronfman and his Montreal-based investment company, Claridge Inc., were key players linked to a $60-million US offshore trust in the Cayman Islands that may have cost Canadians millions in unpaid taxes.
Offshore trusts can be perfectly legal. They are not subject to Canadian law so long as they meet certain conditions.
... for the Canada Revenue Agency, the most important rule for offshore trusts is that they really did have to be offshore — that's where the decisions, the so-called "mind and management," had to be made.
Yet the Paradise Papers — which contain more than 5,000 documents from the Kolber Trust file alone — reveal numerous examples where decisions were made and approved not in the Caymans, but in Canada.
There are memos seeking the "approval," "authorization" and "written confirmation" for business decisions from Montreal-based investment manager and accountant Don Chazan. The Paradise Papers also show there are phone calls and meetings in Montreal between Chazan and Jonathan Kolber.
Leo Kolber was a major Liberal Party fundraiser, and once jokingly referred to himself as the Bronfman family’s 'consigliere.'
Chazan also kept a set of Kolber Trust books in Montreal, two former colleagues told the CBC.
_

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/stephen-bronfman-trudeau-paradise-papers-1.4382511


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

*Billionaires' law firm helped wage 'Kill Bill' campaign to block offshore tax legislation*
_At issue was legislation first proposed by the federal government as far back as 1999 to tackle what was perceived to be gaping offshore tax loopholes exploited by wealthy Canadians.

Federal Finance Department officials stated that high net worth Canadian families were finding ways to "circumvent" the rules and "disguise" offshore transactions to avoid paying millions in tax back in Canada.
Davies Ward represented the Bronfman and Kolber families for years, helping them move money outside of Canada in the early 1990s and set up trusts in the United States and the Cayman Islands.

At the same time, Leo Kolber was a top fundraiser for the federal Liberal Party under prime ministers Jean Chrétien and Paul Martin, a role later assumed by Stephen Bronfman, his godson, in 2013. Kolber was also chair of the Senate committee on banking, trade and commerce.
A review of lobby registry records, parliamentary finance committee hearings and Hansards going back more than a decade shows that Davies Ward and numerous tax law and accounting firms were heavily involved in a campaign that delayed the passage of any such legislation by 14 years.

It was only in 2007, after Stephen Harper's Conservative government came to power, that a bill finally passed the House of Commons. The hallmark of that legislation was that all Canadian contributions to foreign trusts would now be taxed on their earnings.

But Davies Ward wasn't going to give up yet.
Together with other accounting and tax law firms, Davies Ward turned its attention to the Liberal-dominated Senate, which had agreed to hold its own hearings on the legislation.
The Senate spent nine months debating the new changes.
The proposals died on the order paper when the 2008 federal election was called.

In 2013, Parliament finally passed a version of the 1999 proposals. The new rules effectively tax Canadian contributions to offshore trusts retroactively to 2007. Parliament did, however, remove some of the farther-reaching aspects of the legislation that tax law firms had said were too broad and would have captured income from non-Canadian sources.
That year, a Davies Ward lawyer testified at the House of Commons finance committee that the legislation now met with the firm's approval. 

_

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/paradise-papers-offshore-bronfman-lobbying-1.4384912


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

It's all about power and politics you peons.

Power and Politics. 
View attachment 16802

Stephen Bronfman and Justin Trudeau

Now bend over and pay up.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

*Wealthy caught evading taxes........again.*

The Paradise Papers.

Once again the wealthy "job creators" are caught revealing their true intentions.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Yes, socialism is preferred. that way we can all be poor and miserable. Don't paint everyone with the same brush please.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

my god, if nothing else, the trump administration is going to be responsible for undoubtedly hundreds of political novels based on their shenanigans

so you have wilbur ross, the commerce secretary ... and 10th in line to be president of the united states under a designated survivor, terrorist attack scenario, in business partnership with the president of the country that is historically at least and nominally, our greatest enemy ... sheesh ... wowzer

what would ronnie reagan think ?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Queen of England is involved in a rent to own furniture company.................sheesh.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

The other thread:
http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/124298-Wealthy-caught-evading-taxes-again


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

With the mass immigration of Moslims into Europe the Queen of England will be booted out of the palace when the palace is turned into a Mosque


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Is anybody really surprised that the ultra rich hide their money in offshore tax havens?


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

olivaw said:


> Is anybody really surprised that the ultra rich hide their money in offshore tax havens?


It's the disgusting hypocrisy of Trudeau and his ilk with their talk of 'taxing the wealthy', and knowing that nothing will come of this that is most disappointing. When they say they plan to tax the wealthy, they mean those with high incomes who already pay their share of taxes but are easy targets for the CRA - they don't mean themselves and their buddies like bronfman: 
http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...-Evasion-by-the-Wealthy?p=1756570#post1756570


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Yet another massive insider leak of tax shelter details.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/topic/Tag/Paradise Papers



> Huge offshore data leak reveals financial secrets of global elite — from the Queen to former PMs


Some of it is interesting. There will be lots of outrage. Lots of public figures will be vilified. I wonder if it will make any difference. I rather think that, when the dust settles, most cases will wind up being entirely legal and unassailable.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Or this one: http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/124314-Paradise-Papers?p=1756866#post1756866


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## Lost in Space 2 (Jun 28, 2016)

In the case of Trudeau it's just another nail in the "tax the rich" coffin. As others have pointed out it won't cause him to lose the next election but it will make it harder to continue his agenda. 

Along those lines Trudeau was elected on a SJW platform and beloved of the millennials. Harper was obviously a dinosaur but I'm wondering is how the housing bust is going to play out on all of this.


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## Nerd Investor (Nov 3, 2015)

It's ridiculous that they chose to go after small businesses rather than attack something like this.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The business groups don't talk about this when they lobby for corporate tax cuts. We will create jobs they say............yea, in some offshore island guarding their money.


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## stantistic (Sep 19, 2015)

How about you folks getting together on this ?

The Paradise Papers - Tax Evasion by the Wealthy


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> When they say they plan to tax the wealthy, they mean those with high incomes who already pay their share of taxes


Well, of course. The main mechanisms we have for taxation are income tax, sales tax and property tax. We don't have a wealth tax and I wouldn't want us to have one. The main lever the feds have their mitts on is income tax, so of course "tax the rich" means "tax the high income earners".


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Nike sells a ton of shoes in developed countries and gets all it's work done in low wage impoverished countries.

Then they hide the billions of dollars so they don't pay taxes anywhere. Nike shoes should have a 10,000 % import duty on them.

They can sell their shoes in the countries they make them.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't feel outraged. These are just documents, kind of like dumpster diving or finding a stack of papers left accidentally at Kinko's.

To feel outraged, I'd have to know that there was wrongdoing. Is there? And where is the proof it was illegal?


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't feel outraged. These are just documents, kind of like dumpster diving or finding a stack of papers left accidentally at Kinko's.
> 
> To feel outraged, I'd have to know that there was wrongdoing. Is there? And where is the proof it was illegal?


I was listening to the CBC today and they said that while putting money in offshore trusts is not against the law here, if you do it, you must have the money managed offshore as well. Apparently the Bronfman trust papers that leaked contained evidence of money-management decisions being made from within Canada, which makes it illegal. They said the CRA are looking into it. 

There are a huge number of pages in these leaked papers, I expect it will be a while before we know what all is fine and normal and what is illegal.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

gardner said:


> Well, of course...


That whoosh is the point I was making going over your head.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

48% income tax would make anyone search for a way to keep from getting robbed by our government.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Being legal is what makes it so offensive. It is proof the wealthy own the politicians and demand they get special treatment.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Paradise papers show financing links between Jared Kushner and a Russian backed by the Kremlin.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

hey james, there are at least 3 threads which are essentially, nominally about the paradise papers, can you merge these ?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Combining them as we speak...


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I think I've now merged all Paradise threads into this one. Let me know if I've missed any other threads. We'll keep the thread here under General unless it spirals out of control into Hotness territory


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

Everyone from the Queen to Bono to Jared Kushner to Jean Chretien has been named in these Paradise papers. In other words, people with money. So far, I have seen no convincing evidence of illegality, only strategic financial allocation to avoid paying more taxes than legally necessary. You need serious money to be able to afford the expertise required to set these structures up, and to make the hassle worthwhile. Before I condemn these people, I want to see the results of reviews by tax experts and lawyers. If no laws were contravened, I don’t see anything wrong with it.


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## Koogie (Dec 15, 2014)

What a crock of ****. It might be "legal" thanks to bought and paid for politicians enacting bespoke laws for the helicopter elite but is it FAIR ? 
You know FAIRNESS.. it's all the rage when directed at pizza parlor owners, farmers and dentists. Less so for those with French chateaus and friends of the Aga Khan or Bronfmans....


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm with heyjude, I'm not convinced that I'm looking at anything illegal here -- some experts will have to weigh in and look at specific cases.

Is it "fair" that someone can hold $2 million in XIU shares, receive huge dividends, and not pay any tax? Should I be up in arms that people can do that?

Tax law is full of advantages for the wealthy. I'm not saying it's fine for them to have all these advantages but it's kind of murky what is right and wrong.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Koogie said:


> You know FAIRNESS.. it's all the rage when directed at pizza parlor owners, farmers and dentists. Less so for those with French chateaus and friends of the Aga Khan or Bronfmans




JEALLussssee! nightandday you TORTcher me!

it's the french castles, the aga khans & the phyllis bronfman lamberts who add sorely needed glamour to history

formula one, taittinger réserve, medici palaces, christian dior, chippendale, baccarat

it's said that the bronfmans donated hundreds of millions to israel via their trusts in the caribbean

only the frustrated jealous would want to dum-dum dazzling romance down into dull ETFs & dreary couch potatoes


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## spirit (May 9, 2009)

In our local paper there was an article saying that Cretien never had a bank account outside of Canada. Apparently, the Paridise article stated he had 100000 shares transferred to an offshore account. His story was that the law firm he worked at had 100000 shares given to the company, not to him personally. Time will tell.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

What about that geriatric hypocrite the queen. Lives on the generosity of taxpayers and decides to not even put it back into the British economy. 

Bono has been flying around begging for charity from every country on the planet to support his bogus schemes.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

And I'm with Koogie. It's not about being illegal (although it sounds like the Kolber Trust was run contrary to Cdn tax law), its not even about being fair, its about doing what is *morally right*.

People like the bronfmans and kolbers had the good fortune to grow up, live and prosper in Canada but have no compunction about moving money offshore to reduce the taxes they have to pay as Canadians to help support Canada.

Cripes, leo kolber was a senator and even accepted the Order of Canada but apparently didn't think there was anything wrong with keeping his money offshore to avoid/reduce paying taxes to Canada.

But wait, aren't they big philanthropists? Sure if donating money that would otherwise go to taxes anyway, and getting a building with your name on it in the bargain is philathropy and not egoism.

Now to throw them a bone, I do wonder how much 'choice' they feel they have, living in their oxygen-deprived world of big egos. Companies like Appleby exist to 'service' the wealthy with lawyering/accounting while lining their own pockets. Isn't that just what your supposed to do once you're in the upper echelons. What is there to talk about at the cocktail party if not the latest tax shelter that your accountant/lawyer has put you into.

I won't get started now about the lobbying and buddy-buddy that exists between power and politics to protect those interests. That's a whole other rant.

So I remain thoroughly disgusted, not surprised but disgusted at these people who have no moral compass.

Perhaps we should all take comfort however in the fact that almost certainly we are paying less in 'fees' than these champions of commerce. At the end of the day, they're the suckers.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I'm disgusted that the tax rates are so high...why not lower them to like 30% and affluent people might not mind paying them rather than find exotic tax shelters...more tax for JT to give away to climate change schemes or whatever might raise his cred some more with the Euro trash elite.

Or maybe give more of this ....what a twit
https://www.canada.ca/en/economic-d...hotelcomplexwillbeabletogoaheadwithitspr.html

No wonder we don't like sending our money to Ottawa.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Eder said:


> lower them to like 30% and affluent people might not mind paying them


Rich folks hate paying taxes too, and have more tools to avoid it. It is not worth $100k in lawyers fees to reduce MY taxes by 2% but for these folks it could be a big win. Lowering tax rates and hoping that the super-rich rich folks will willingly pay is not realistic.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

james4beach said:


> Isomeone can hold $2 million in XIU shares, receive huge dividends, and not pay any tax? Should I be up in arms that people can do that?


...because of the dividend tax credit, you mean?

In this case what may be more unfair is the offshore holder of the XIU getting dinged with the 25% withholding tax that a resident would get an offsetting credit for.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Eder said:


> ... Or maybe give more of this ....what a twit https://www.canada.ca/en/economic-d...hotelcomplexwillbeabletogoaheadwithitspr.html
> No wonder we don't like sending our money to Ottawa.


_"Government of Canada provides $9,850,000 in funding for the Le Massif de Charlevoix Hotel - a repayable contribution, for the construction and development of the first Club Med resort in North America"_

Yup, I feel another heave rising in my throat. But surely the money will actually get repaid don't you think?
I'll refrain from further comment, we're tiptoeing in Humble's backyard :smile-new:


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gardner said:


> ...because of the dividend tax credit, you mean?


Yes. I'm just saying that some people may think it's unfair and outrageous that a multi millionaire would get tax-free income, whereas someone making the same employment income would pay significant tax.

$2 million x 2.6% eligible dividends = $52,000 income with zero tax (federal + Ontario)
But $52,000 employment income has over $11,000 taxes taken off it

(Counter-argument to what I'm saying is that corporations already pay tax, so in a way, you're double-taxed on dividends and the dividend tax credit is a way to undo this double taxation)


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> _"Government of Canada provides $9,850,000 in funding for the Le Massif de Charlevoix Hotel - a repayable contribution, for the construction and development of the first Club Med resort in North America"_
> 
> Yup, I feel another heave rising in my throat





Eder said:


> Or maybe give more of this ....what a twit
> 
> https://www.canada.ca/en/economic-d...hotelcomplexwillbeabletogoaheadwithitspr.html
> 
> No wonder we don't like sending our money to Ottawa.





bof, why so nasty against quebec?

just last month the exact same federal Ministry of Innovation, Science & Economic Development blew $9,500,000 on 2 companies in southern ontario, along with a similar amount across many smaller businesses in northern ontario.

$5,000,000 to Sodecia, london, ontario 

https://www.canada.ca/en/economic-d...manufacturerbuildsnewhotstampingfacility.html

$4,500,000 to Rowan Williams Davies Irwin, guelph, ontario

https://www.canada.ca/en/economic-d...guelph-based_firmrwdiexpandsandinnovates.html


i could go on listing all loans, grants & other economic incentive disbursements by the honourable Navdeep Bains, minister of ISED, across the entire nation if you like. The total amount to be spent across canada by the federal gummint would reduce the grant to build a new hotel in quebec's booming tourist charlevoix region to a comparative pittance.

please notice that quebecers like myself never speak so meanly about grants, aids & assistance rendered to other regions in canada. On the contrary, we are always very happy to see other regions thrive. Quebecers tend to be a bon vivant & cheerful lot.

on the other hand, it has to be sad, unhappy, bilious persons who would falsely pretend that a routine grant to a quebec economic project could be a unique or special consideration being made to quebec alone. Poor souls, no wonder their *throats* are *heaving*


.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

... which is why I said I would refrain from further comment - the Quebec example was not unique.

Ok, enough chatter from sad, unhappy, bilious, falsely pretending me.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

My point was why do we care if some didn't pay their share of taxes when the government disrespects our money that they decide to use it to build a Club Med. Why raise our taxes when the government will only be satisfied with infinite money. Makes me sick with the contemptuous waste at the expense of our hard work.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I think the money is hidden because it is terrorist money. It might not be, but we should seize it all just to be on the safe side.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I think that there is a huge difference between using every possible means to shelter income and lower the tax burden and violating the income tax act.

Tax avoidance vs. tax fraud.


Not certain how anyone can say that all of those named have broken any Canadian tax laws. Nothing wrong with being wealthy, nothing wrong with trying to minimize your tax liability no matter what income level you are at.

No doubt some are on the wrong side of our tax regime. But certainly not all. Hopefully they will be audited, re-assessed, fined,,, whatever.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I think it is not illegal but it is unethical. We have lawyers to deal with the legalities but we rely on politicians to deal with unethical activities. I think politicians do not understand their role. e.g. it is unethical to finance a Club Med anywhere.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> ... which is why I said I would refrain from further comment - the Quebec example was not unique.




it was totally unique. The new hotel in charlevoix quebec was deliberately cherrypicked from a vast list of loans, grants, subventions & other financial assistance granted to startup businesses by federal minister Navdeep Bains all across canada. Transparently, the isolated example was handpicked in order to be as insulting as possible. 

as for Eder, one has no idea why he goes on about "our" taxes & "our" tax money. He has repeatedly told cmf forum that he does not reside in canada, is not a canadian income taxpayer. He says that he lives on a yacht that he keeps in southern waters for the greater part of the year.


.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

kcowan said:


> I think politicians do not understand their role. e.g. it is unethical to finance a Club Med anywhere.




you might have something there. Club Med was founded as a french business. 

kcowan himself presumably stays in french hotels when he vacations every year in france, as he likes to tell us he does.

what with french chateaux, french hotels & kcowan himself co-habiting with the enemy, it's clear that we izz doomed.

sags is right, there's nothing left to do except seize all their money.

.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

In Canada, the General Anti-Avoidance Rule makes it illegal to exploit legal tax loopholes.

http://barretttaxlaw.com/general-anti-avoidance-rule-gaar/

General tax avoidance isn't a criminal offense, but the CRA can apply the appropriate taxes, interest and penalties.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I do not think that it is unethical. It is good business, personal and commerical, to use every legal means possible to reduce taxes.

The issue is not that people, corporations, or trusts can do it.

The issue is that it is permitted in the tax code. 

It is hardly reasonable for someone who knows otherwise, not to take advantage of it and reduce their tax burden. That is what the regulation was put in place in the first place. It is the tax code that may not be reasonable. Perhaps the focus should be on this...the source of the issue.

There seems to be a dislike of wealthy individuals who manage their affairs in an efficient way. What on earth is wrong with being successful and wealthy?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

ian said:


> There seems to be a dislike of wealthy individuals who manage their affairs in an efficient way. What on earth is wrong with being successful and wealthy?



some people get truly, madly, deeply jealous, is what's wrong


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> it was totally unique...


I meant that it was not unique in the sense of being an example of Federal largesse directed towards Quebec. It was not an example of favoritism towards Quebec. I was in short, trying to side with 'you'.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I am thriled to pay more taxes so rich people can hide their money from the tax man. Isn't everyone ?


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

ian said:


> I do not think that it is unethical. It is good business, personal and commerical, to use every legal means possible to reduce taxes....
> There seems to be a dislike of wealthy individuals who manage their affairs in an efficient way. What on earth is wrong with being successful and wealthy?


I agree entirely with you on the above. 

But when that individual goes the extra step of moving their money to an offshore tax haven to shelter it from taxes while still enjoying the benefits of being a citizen of Canada - an ethical line has been crossed. They are evading part of their responsiblity as a citizen of Canada. Should the wealthiest be exempt from fully contributing simply because they can afford to? 
If our tax system is somehow unfair - then let's fix it, not shift assets offshore.
If we don't like how tax dollars are being spent - then let's fix that too.

Taken to the extreme, if a significant number of us chose to move our assets to the Caymans or Jersey, what tax base would be left to run the country and support us? Now, if you are moving both your money and yourself offshore I say 'good on you', send me a postcard.

It reminds me of the (illegal) underground economy. Pay me under the table for that work and we both appear to benefit so what's the big deal. 'Everyone' does it. But let a substantial part of the economy work 'under the table' and things begin to fall apart and we face the challenges of Greece. 

The moral obligation to fund your country's programs is important. Sidestepping this by using the services of the Appleby's of the world may be portrayed as simply good planning, but IMO you are prostituting yourself. You are not a Canadian worthy of respect, and certainly not one worthy of an Order of Canada.

I have more than enough wealth so I don't think my opinion comes from jealousy or envy but from a sense fairness. The rest of us pay our fair share of taxes and support our country by doing so. It irks me that others move their assets offshore and reduce their share while continuing as Canadians.

I'm not wading into bonafide corporations like the Nike's and Apple's of the world here - way too complex. It does seem from reading about their 'tax planning' that they are shirking some of their corporate responsibility though, to the beneift of shareholders. It doesn't look like the market today has any concerns though.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Ethics is a very murky area. I suspect many individuals would be quite surprised at the business ethics of many of companies that they hold equity positions in either directly or indirectly through mutual funds.

The only solution to this is to fix the tax system. Shaming someone or some company or appealing to them on the basis of ethics simply does not work. Goodness, there has been enough written about the ethics of the mass of equity positions held by faith based organizations. Besides, corporations have a duty to their shareholders who may or may not be Canadian citizens.

The way to fix this is through a review and a change in the tax code.

The entire ethics discussion could include such things as Canadian companies offshoring jobs to save money, or the Canadian legal, accounting and financial institutions that operate branches in those tax havens specifically for the purpose of enabling these transactions to be made in an efficient manner. There is more than one large and well respected Canadian financial institution that has been busted for knowingly laundering drug money through their off shore subsidiaries.


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

sags said:


> I am thriled to pay more taxes so rich people can hide their money from the tax man. Isn't everyone ?


LOL. 

But we don't need to pick on the 1% in Canada. We don't have the type of wealth disparity that they have in the US and less developed countries. 

So lets chill and read silly newspaper articles about politically motivated faux outrage. 

http://nationalpost.com/news/politi...pocrisy-following-paradise-papers-revelations


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> as for Eder, one has no idea why he goes on about "our" taxes & "our" tax money. He has repeatedly told cmf forum that he does not reside in canada, is not a canadian income taxpayer.
> 
> 
> .


I have paid more than my fair share for years. Now my kids are paying 40% so JT can build Club Meds etc. Shameful.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

sags said:


> I am thriled to pay more taxes ...



what a neat new word in the vocab. Is it "thrilled" or is it "riled"

the fact is it's one of those ambidextrous one-size-fits-all grey-shady bi-tranny kinds of words

these days, a lot of the folks in cmf forum are all riled up about how bad they get treated in canada

once in a blue moon something does go right for them, though, so briefly they're able to lighten up for the thrill


.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Taken to the extreme, if a significant number of us chose to move our assets to the Caymans or Jersey, what tax base would be left to run the country and support us? Now, if you are moving both your money and yourself offshore I say 'good on you', send me a postcard



there's a member of this thread who's done just that. I don't see you asking for a postcard though. Strangely enough, i see you taking his part, here in this thread ...





> The moral obligation to fund your country's programs is important. Sidestepping this by using the services of the Appleby's of the world may be portrayed as simply good planning, but IMO you are prostituting yourself. You are not a Canadian worthy of respect, and certainly not one worthy of an Order of Canada



surely you are not calling for the iron prison of currency control laws plus restrictions on foreign travel for canadian citizens? where are you heading with this, another Gulag state?





> I have more than enough wealth so I don't think my opinion comes from jealousy or envy but from a sense fairness. The rest of us pay our fair share of taxes and support our country by doing so. It irks me that others move their assets offshore and reduce their share while continuing as Canadians.



there have been snowbirds, artists fleeing to live in mexico or morocco or ibiza or cyprus, flown taxpayers or their assets domiciled in tax havens dotted around the planet, for at least a century. More or less since the arrival of personal income taxation, if you think about it.

i'm curious to know what you suggest doing about these migrations? they are massive. they are ongoing. they are probaby permanent.

surely the only alternative is a sealed prison state, soviet style.





> I'm not wading into bonafide corporations like the Nike's and Apple's of the world here - way too complex. It does seem from reading about their 'tax planning' that they are shirking some of their corporate responsibility though, to the beneift of shareholders. It doesn't look like the market today has any concerns though.



why not wade? their stories are wonderfully entertaining. There's a marvellous article in the NYT about how Apple didn't come home when washington got ireland to quash all those lovely tax privileges Apple had been enjoying in low-tax Eire.

did Apple come home? nossir, they paid a king's ransom to baker & mcKenzie, world's largest law firm & lately the employer of madame Christiane Lagarde, the elegant lawyer who currently heads the World Bank. Apple probably paid Baker enough money to govern italy for an entire year.

baker & its armies of contacts engineered a brand new offshore environment for the innovative phone company, not in california which was washington's intent, but in jersey. Tax haven jersey, a medieval french-norman island just off the coast of france, whence sailed Jacques Cartier on his voyage to discover china by sailing westward (the seagoing explorer did OK though, as a consolation prize he discovered montreal & got to spend his first winter icebound in port royal, sick unto death with scurvy & having his life saved by the mohawk of hochelaga, who cured the scurvy-stricken crew with vitamin C from pine needles)

but i digress. Today, Apple is sitting pretty in bucolic jersey, next to the red-cheeked apple orchards & the famous jersey cows. Somebody should tell donald trump that apple is not coming home again, not ever in trump's lifetime.


onlyMO if there's one thing that quebecers understand properly, it's that there's no point getting into a self-righteous swivet over sin. Sin has been around since adam & eve in the garden of eden. Sin is downright naughty. Actually, a bit of sin is quite a lot of fun, explained the hochelaga mohawk to jacques cartier. Helps to break up the long cold winter, said the mohawk. Why not put on this bon'homme Carnival costume & go dancing, they said.


EDIT: sorry my geography is a little off. Jacques Cartier sailed from saint-malo, a french-normand town on the coast of brittany just across from jersais. 


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Dear Humble,
I don't get what you say anymore,
I fear that I've been lost offshore.

Somewhere between the cows of Jersey,
And your friend Jacques Cartier's scurvy.

If I can just wait a bit more for JT's pot,
My head will be chill about all this rot.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

BMO involved in illegal activity and they knew it and tried to cover it up.

They had a subsidiary offshore that did nothing..........absolutely nothing.

No meetings, no office, no phones, no people, no customers, nothing but an illegal tax evasion scam. Not tax avoidance.......tax evasion.

What do they do ? Fly 6 executives to the island a couple times of year to hold meetings and voila.............it is deemed CRA legal. 

When the execs balked at attending the meetings, the solution was to reduce the board of directors so fewer people had to attend.

That type of criminal planning usually invites criminal charges when caught. We shall see what happens.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

^^


sags all the banks are doing this

not just canadian banks. All banks. Have you ever been to the bahamas? in nassau it's not an issue of global warming plus rising ocean levels. That place is drowning in wall-to-wall banks.

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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Dear Humble,
> I don't get what you say anymore,
> I fear that I've been lost offshore.
> 
> ...




tellement mignonne, ta poésie


history is divided on what cured jacques cartier's crew of serious scurvy during his first icebound winter in the new world. The official story goes that it was vitamin C infused from pine needles, prepared & offered to the ailing french sailors by the host mohawk people. However the revisionist school says they were cheered up by a taste of the local sin.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

You can include in that group of facilitators one of Canada's leading CA firms.......with a special emphasis on their Victoria/Vancouver operations.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

BMO didn't bother to even pretend they were doing business there. They operated out of a mailbox at the lawyers office.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

sags said:


> That type of criminal planning usually invites criminal charges when caught. We shall see what happens.


Actually what they did is legal...but the CRA invoked a section of the Income Tax Act called the general anti-avoidance rule that invalidates tax-minimizing schemes that "comply with the letter of the law" but thwart its spirit or purpose.

BMO is going to court to defend themselves.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> kcowan himself presumably stays in french hotels when he vacations every year in france, as he likes to tell us he does.
> 
> what with french chateaux, french hotels & kcowan himself co-habiting with the enemy, it's clear that we izz doomed.


I think you are confusing the two issues. I have no problem with Club Med. I have a problem with our tax dollars being used to finance them.

(Even though I voted Liberal to get rid of Harper, I now realize that it was my mistake!)


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Eder said:


> Actually what they did is legal...but the CRA invoked a section of the Income Tax Act called the general anti-avoidance rule that invalidates tax-minimizing schemes that "comply with the letter of the law" but thwart its spirit or purpose.
> 
> BMO is going to court to defend themselves.


You are noting a different case that is before the tax court. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bmo-tax-avoidance-cra-court-1.4389774

In the Paradise Papers emails from worried BMO executives discuss how to make the scheme "appear" legal and hoping "time would run out" on criminal prosecution.

BMO executives have been busy as beavers.............


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

sags said:


> BMO didn't bother to even pretend they were doing business there. They operated out of a mailbox at the lawyers office.




sags would you be able to take a google tour of the world's tax havens. They should all be google earthed by now.

andorra, for example. I've never been to andorra. I only know 2 people who have ever been to andorra. They didn't go there for the banking, one rode a mountain bike along the spanish/french border & the other went to ski the pyrenees.

but i'm willing to bet that if one throws a stone in any direction from the central square in the capital city of andorra la vieja, the stone will hit a canadian bank or bank affiliate.

sags are you not the cmffer who has posted that beautiful video of a flashcrowd symphony orchestra playing Beethoven's Ninth in the central square in beautiful downtown andorra la vieja?

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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

IF the Government is really serious about this they will do threee things. First off is major fines for the individuals and corporate taxpayers. Second, major fines, possibly incarceration for any individual or company involved in facilitating the transaction. Third-attach significant CRA and enforcement resources to outing these folks and the CP staff to prosecute the individuals who benefit and the individual(s) facilitators.

You can be assured that the latter will never happen. Legal firms, financial firms, banks, and accountants are making far too much money in fees and commission to make this happen. Their respective lobby groups are strong. It never becomes a burning issue political issue for very long and never during an election so a public groundswell of pressure is highly unlikely.

This is not a Liberal issue. It is a greed issue. Greedy people who want to protect and enhance their financial positions do this regardless of their political stripe.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I think what would be really great with the Panama & Paradise papers is to do some analysis to just figure out what the effective tax rates is for some large corporations.

We have large corps that use offshore vehicles to avoid paying domestic taxes. Fine, I'm not saying it's illegal, but let's quantify it. Let's figure out what the ACTUAL taxation burden on corporations are.

I think we'll find that corporations pay extremely low tax rates, net of everything. And this will be great news for the country because it means (1) corporations already are well positioned under current tax regimes (2) we don't need more corporate tax cuts


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