# Going carless



## latebuyer (Nov 15, 2015)

I'm interested in hearing from people who have gone from 1 car to 0 car. How did you find it?


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I did this a few years ago when I moved to downtown Toronto (city core). First thing to note is that I've only lived carless in cities where I had excellent public transportation or excellent bicycling infrastructure.

I have been carless for 6 years now. When I need a car, I typically rent one (for a weekend trip) and I find that serves my needs. I don't find myself wishing that I owned a car. In fact it's pretty fun to just pick up a brand new car whenever I need one at a rental place, so I get to drive a variety of cars. I have a one week car rental coming up this week.

Earlier I did a total cost of ownership analysis and determined that I'm saving money by renting cars when I need them, even though this is a few hundred dollars of rentals a year. Cars depreciate rapidly and incur maintenance and insurance costs. In many cases you can rent brand new cars at places like Enterprise for $15 to $20 a day (all in), with fuel being the only extra cost. Make sure you use a credit card that has built in damage/collision insurance.

I have not used Zipcar or Car2Go yet but they seem like good ideas too, and my coworkers use them.

There is a downside to not owning a car of course. Convenience does suffer, slightly. I've had friends who live outside of town invite me to visit them last minute, and this might require a 30-45 minute drive ... impossible without a car, and you can't always get a rental at the last minute. This has caused me some inconvenience. However, I live in a city where Uber & Lyft are available so this has greatly mitigated this problem.

I continue to happily live carless. However this very much depends on what city I live in, and where I live within that city.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> I did this a few years ago when I moved to downtown Toronto (city core). First thing to note is that I've only lived carless in cities where I had excellent public transportation or excellent bicycling infrastructure.


It probably also matters where one has to go. Heading downtown to work via the subway was fine - crossing Toronto to see relatives who weren't close to a bus route would have been doable but would have cut down on the number of visits.




james4beach said:


> ... In many cases you can rent brand new cars at places like Enterprise for $15 to $20 a day (all in), with fuel being the only extra cost.


Odd ... I can recall taxes and if it was an airport, an extra fee thrown in.

BTW - I'm in San Francisco in a couple of weeks ... can you point me *anywhere* that this cheap a rental?
So far the range is $33 through $143 USD.





james4beach said:


> ... Make sure you use a credit card that has built in damage/collision insurance.


Just be aware of what they cover - a bungee cord where the hook on one end sinks into the tire causing a flat and the hook on the other end smashes the back turn signal lens plus marks the side of the car is not covered.


Cheers


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> Just be aware of what they cover - a bungee cord where the hook on one end sinks into the tire causing a flat and the hook on the other end smashes the back turn signal lens plus marks the side of the car is not covered.


I presume that you are talking about a freaky rental car damage situation here. Just like gouges,scratches and dings from other unexpected sources on the streets or highway, the CC collision damage coverage will NOT cover most of these situations. 
If you waive the rental agencies expensive collision waiver, you will be responsible for paying for ALL damages..even where there is a collision with another vehicle or a serious road accident. 

From the Capital One MC certificate of insurance information, I printed off. 
(I am renting a wheelchair van in September to travel from Ottawa to Toronto and WAS contemplating against the expensive Collision Damage waiver at $25 a day.)

"Elgibility" You are eligible for the Car rental collision/Loss Damage Waiver insurance when you rent most passenger vehicles on a daily basis"...you are provided with the same protection against losses arising from contractual liability assumed when renting and operating a rental vehicle as you would as if you had accepted the rental agency's collision or loss damage waiver..."

Apparently, according to MC customer service, vans are not covered under their CDW waiver. Iin their insurance facto, they include all sorts of exclusion to protect themselves.

So the jist of it is..if you never have to make a claim, then go ahead and use your CC and don't pay
extra for the CDW. 
However, if you do have to make a claim, you will be liable for any damages if they refuse to honour your claim.

In my case, the CDW with $500 deductible is $24.95, For $0 deductible it's $29.95 per day. 




> Who is covered:
> The covered card cardholder and those designated in the rental agreement as authorized drivers.
> *Excluded rental vehicles:*
> All trucks, pickups, *full-size vans *mounted on truck chassis (including, but not limited to, Ford EconoVan), cargo vans, campers, off-road vehicles, and other recreational vehicles.
> ...


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

carverman said:


> I presume that you are talking about a freaky rental car damage situation here ...


If running over a bungee cord so that it sticks in the tire and is whipped around is "freaky" then yes.




carverman said:


> Just like gouges,scratches and dings from other unexpected sources on the streets or highway, the CC collision damage coverage will NOT cover most of these situations ...


When I called they said that if a collision had put the cord into the tire, it would be covered. As there was no other vehicle involved then no dice. 




carverman said:


> If you waive the rental agencies expensive collision waiver, you will be responsible for paying for ALL damages..even where there is a collision with another vehicle or a serious road accident.


?? 

Damages *from a collision* are covered so unless there something like reckless driving or driving under the influence or buying the rental agency insurance to negate it.




carverman said:


> So the jist of it is..if you never have to make a claim, then go ahead and use your CC and don't pay
> extra for the CDW. However, if you do have to make a claim, you will be liable for any damages if they refuse to honour your claim ...


And that's any different than if the rental company claims one was driving under the influence etc?


Cheers


----------



## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

**


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Mukhang pera said:


> I have rented cars and trucks many times over the years and have generally relied on my cc insurance for cars. It usually won't cover trucks, even light trucks.


And it won't cover vans either. I tried to explain to the MC customer service person,that it was a Dodge Caravan modified with
a ramp for wheelchair passenger use, but they didn't understand that and quoted me the standard disclaimer.
"exceptions'..I gave up. 

I don't want any hassles with damage to the van on the highway (due to road debris puncturing a tire)
or a deer jumping across in front of us. Without the CDW it could cost me THOUSANDS if it's a serious 
loss of control crash.
With the $500 deductible CDW, it's $24.95 per day. With $0 deductible it's only $5 a day more. 
It's cost me enough already to rent the van...I don't even want to pay for dents or scratches. 

In case of an road incident, the last thing I want is for Hertz to charge me thousands for repairing a $60K -70K
custom built Savaria van, while I try to sort it the details over the phone with MC insurance on the rental and the incident.



> *Coverage limitations:*
> We will pay the lesser of the following:
> a)
> The actual repair amount:
> ...


There seems to be enough exclusion fine print to convince me that they would try and weasel out without paying. 

I just don't need that kind of headache. right now. Yes, it's going to cost me a bit over a $100 for the CDW for the weekend rental, but it'speace of mind.... and if something should happen where the wheelchair van is not driveable to complete the journey,
it IS Hertz's responsibility to me as a paying customer to arrange for my wheelchair transportation to where I'm going and to get me home safely again. It's not as though I can jump into any rental car , and there is my
expensive $5k wheelchair that I need to get transported along with me. 

I'm sure that Mastercard "insurance" couldn't care less for any inconvenience..assuming I wasn't even injured in an accident. 



> By the time of my next episode with rental car damage, I had perfected my technique. My CIBC cc provided rental car insurance. I totalled a Budget Rent-A-Car vehicle. CIBC never even called me to ask "What the hell happened?" It just paid for a new car.


Well "your mileage may vary" as they say...in your case it was a car..in my case it is not a car, but a van and they 
(Capital One MC), are telling me it is NOT covered under their insurance umbrella policy...
so that is point that could be argued in court. I just don't want any hassles.


----------



## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Depends where you live. If you live in a decent urban centre there are lots of car share choices that work great. Also, car rentals are pretty cheap too and much cheaper than owning (depending how often you rent of course).

If you live in BC - i can give you my MODO code which will get you $25 towards some car sharing.

I like it. I save tons of cash although I may buy a car in a few months for no reason really to just spend some money.


----------



## Bowzer (Feb 25, 2015)

I was carless in downtown Toronto for 13 years. I rented cars as needed, and used car sharing services as stuff came up.

I lived in an extremely walkable neighborhood (I think it was rated 99% walk score), and most everything I needed was a walk away. 

If I still lived there I'd probably still not have a car. Wasn't a bad way to go about things and the money savings obviously is immense.


----------



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> I have rented cars and trucks many times over the years and have generally relied on my cc insurance for cars ...
> 
> Well, being an articled law student, I was not about to take any crap from Mr. Francoeur. I sued him and Host in Provincial Court and won ...
> 
> ...



another wonderful story .each:

the tongue is mightier than the sword
or was it the pen
never mind
_lacrimae rerum_


.


----------



## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

**


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I lived in north Toronto for several years without a car. On the subway line, which was great, also within walking/biking distance of work (but would take bus/subway in bad weather or if I felt lazy). I rented cars for out-of-town trips and used Zipcar from time to time for in-town trips where a car was more convenient (e.g. airport dropoffs/pickups). It saved a TON of money. Would highly recommend if you live in a place where it's convenient.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

all well and good. Latin translations for those of us that never took Latin in skool...:biggrin:

lacrimae rerum : tears for things : pity for misfortune; also : tears in things : tragedy of life

mirabile dictu: strange to say, wonderful to relate.

but for me..I still prefer this mock latin phrase:
Illegitimi non carborundum : Don't let the bastards grind you down


----------



## 319905 (Mar 7, 2016)

And then there's the one that's been etched into my brain since what ... Grade 11 ... semper ubi sub ubi


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

rikk2 said:


> And then there's the one that's been etched into my brain since what ... Grade 11 ... semper ubi sub ubi


 mother used to say...wear clean ones..in case you are in an accident, but in most accident cases, the para medics always like to cut away those good blue jeans....
and maybe even other " ubi sub ubi."

then there is "semper fidelis", the US marine motto...and in case of ex's (like mine), you can add "Non" to it.:biggrin:

Who got us started on these old latin phrases anyway? :biggrin:


----------



## bds (Aug 13, 2013)

While I do have a cheap, old vehicle for weekend trips, I commute to work and do most errands on my bike. Nothing beats the feeling of flying past gridlocked traffic and getting home in half the time for free, while improving my health.


----------



## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

We live too far out of town to go without a car. Do we need two? Maybe not - when we're not working we could likely get away with one. Until then, we'll own two cars.


----------



## latebuyer (Nov 15, 2015)

Thanks for the responses. I'm in the burbs and will have to check whether zip car or modo is here. I would miss my car. I have a 1990 toyota corolla and feel pretty attached to it.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I think my example rental car prices were too low. Looking back at my Toronto rental logs, the all-in price was around $30 to $35/day. Still I consider that very reasonable... think of the cost of one taxi ride.



Eclectic12 said:


> BTW - I'm in San Francisco in a couple of weeks ... can you point me *anywhere* that this cheap a rental? So far the range is $33 through $143 USD.


Unfortunately no... I travel to SF a lot and have seen the same thing. Sometimes a trick is to rent at a facility away from the airport as it may save a lot. I just rented in San Diego for 60 USD/day including 3rd party liability insurance. You need to get this in the US, because Americans can sue for just about anything. Without the 3rd party insurance the price would have been around 48 USD/day. If you have an existing auto policy you may not need this, but be very careful... this is a litigious society.

Pulling up a rental car quote for downtown Toronto right now I see a price of $33/day, all-in after taxes & fees. Seems to match my logs of what I paid for rentals a few years ago.



> Just be aware of what they cover - a bungee cord where the hook on one end sinks into the tire causing a flat and the hook on the other end smashes the back turn signal lens plus marks the side of the car is not covered.


I've had pretty good results with my credit card insurance. In particular my CIBC Platinum Visa - with RSA (Royal Sun Alliance) insurance - really saved the day once. My parked car was hit by a driver in broad daylight and caused thousands of dollars in damage. The credit card took care of all of it.

I've had other damage as well, which a credit card also took care of. So far I am 2/2 for credit cards paying rental car damage.

There are other cases of damage that I filed claims for, but the rental car company just dropped and "absorbed". One was tyre damage in Australia, another was highway debris damage in Washington state, and another with some minor scratches. Just because the rental car place files a damage report doesn't mean you will get a bill.

Perhaps it helps to be an Enterprise Plus member? Most of these cases were with Enterprise, and I feel like they've treated me very nicely and even absorbed the costs and never billed me. Perhaps it's superstition at this point but I always rent with my two tried-and-true cards (CIBC Platinum Visa & TD US$ Visa) and always at Enterprise when I can.

You must be very careful about the TYPE of vehicle. As mentioned in this thread, vans can be excluded. Also excluded are vehicles that seat more than a certain number of people (like a giant SUV ... beware!). Vehicles above a certain MSRP are also excluded. Just rent standard, low cost passenger vehicles and you'll be OK. If the rental place springs some kind of luxury or high-end car on you, don't take it.

I carry a print-out of the insurance contract. I find they spell this stuff out reasonably well, including exclusions. It really is worth making a phone call to the insurer to run through your understanding of the credit card insurance.


----------



## NorthKC (Apr 1, 2013)

When I was living in the North, I had a great transit system. Most routes ran from 6am-10pm 6 days a week with the college buses running till 11:30pm running every 30-45min and got to most places within 20-30min. Most places that I needed to go was within 5-10min walk from the bus stop. I did this during university and for a few years afterwards. Yes, it required some planning but usually worked out. Maybe once every two months, I took a cab because I got to the transfer too late to catch the last bus of the night but it never cost me more than $10.

Now that I'm living down south, the bus system is very weird. If I was to take the bus to work, it takes me 45min minimum just to get to the terminal then walk another 10min to get to work and this is being 5km away. If I wanted to go grocery shopping, it would take me an hour even though it's only 5km away from me. So, I just drive my car and walk/bike when I have no other commitments to get to. Many routes run every hour unless you catch the express bus every 15min from 5:30am-7:30am and 3-4pm. Not doable since I woke from 8:30-5.


----------



## tendim (Nov 18, 2010)

We have a car in the family, but it is only used on weekends now, mainly to help the parents (they are in car free households) move stuff around / go shopping. Public transit for getting to and from work, even though a one way commute is upwards of an hour and twenty minutes. Needless to say, I get a lot of reading done.

Like others have said, public transit is key to making this work, or be within walking/biking distance of everything you need.

I couldn't make the cost/benefit of a car sharing program work, but it is a demand problem: the amount of time I needed it (i.e. demand) did not make it cost efficient relative to owning our vehicle outright as we do now.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Keeping a car is the cheapest transportation for the two of us, and is the most convenient.

We could get rid of our last car but then......... why would we want to.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This carless guy (me) is taking another weekend trip to the sea! I booked the car today, two days before I need it. 3 day car rental at $39/day after all fees & taxes, including extra 3rd party liability insurance in the US.

This is slightly on the high side as my average rental cost here is $35/day.

Compare this to the cost of car ownership, remember insurance is just $1000-$1500 a year. This has been estimated in this article which gives an average figure of $8700 a year in the US. Let's say you bought a cheap car ... such a thing would still cost you (optimistically) around $3000/year, by my rough estimate.

That works out to 86 rental car days (25% of the year), even at the relatively high prices of full rentals. Currently I spend around $1,000/year on car rentals.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

My current spend on car ownership is about as follows:

-$1300 insurance
-$1600 fuel
-$2500 depreciation (10 year straight line)
-$400 maintenance and repairs

So, approximately $5800. There are many people paying much more than that. If you can rent for $35/day, that's 166 days a year of rental. Of course, you have to pay for fuel still.

This is why it should be obvious to everyone that more and more people (I would say most urban/suburban residents) will go carless and use ridehailing services like Uber, especially once full automation is achieved. It's also going to transform cities, since the need for parking will be much reduced.


----------

