# Bitcoin



## fluidsix2017

Bitcoin is a great way to diversify a portfolio even if it's just in small increments.

Please contact for questions or details.


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## none

LIES!!!!!


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## marina628

I have some only because I was owed some money by a program who will only pay that way and every month they send me 1-2 coins since May 12016.Definitely not something I recommend for many people and if I didn't gamble I certainly would not have any.I have a feeling it will go in the 700 dollar range sooner than later and not buying into the hype it will be 2k or more in a year or so.


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## sags

Totally control by corrupt Chinese exchanges posting fake volumes and bids/asks for the coins doesn't bode well for the future.

Or the exchange claims it was hacked and disappears with everyone's money. There is a long list of those.

The underlying blockchain technology isn't as perfect as once touted either.

It has reached capacity and the length of time to "verify" transactions can take hours or days.

The "solution" of having vendors "trust" that people won't "double spend" their bitcoins is laughable in the business world.

Marina is right.........it is a big gamble, mostly on when to sell and get out.


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## marina628

I see it fell off the cliff today down to $811.00


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## lonewolf :)

Bitcoin is a hedge against government. Biggest threat to Bitcoin is government. There will be a war against Bitcoin & governments.


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## bobsyouruncle

While I don't understand it, not buying some when I was advised to do so 5-6 years ago is a mild regret of mine.


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## zylon

Everybody knows - charts don't mean chit.












> Bitcoin now entering uncharted waters in terms of price rise. Take profits and ease up. Better to be a day early than a day late.
> ~ @MarinKatusa May 23/17


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## marina628

I am holding 14 coins after selling 7 yesterday .I remember way back playing poker and could pick these up for under $10.00 each .


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## Johnred

Anyone into this alternative "ETH" that apparently uses different technology than the blockchain? Its all a gamble I know but gotta get in front of the curve haha.


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## james4beach

I feel like Bitcoin is kind of like a small cap stock. To me it's much more of a lottery ticket than a bona fide "new asset class". The overall capitalization is relatively small and there are disjoint trading markets.

Consider that is just one of many crypto currencies. Others -- such as Litecoin -- haven't moved in price for many years. There are whole bunch of these, Ethereum, Litecoin, Doge etc.

Which one is going to take off and rise like crazy? It's the same question as "which small cap stock will you gamble on". Bitcoin has done great, sure, but that's in hindsight. You should have also bought CCL.B five years ago, or CSU ten years ago. You would have made so much money if you bought CSU ten years ago!

But who cares? That's not how these things work. Some crypto currencies do well, others don't. Some of them will see their community collapse and become worthless. Some small cap stocks or penny stocks will do very well too.

I'm interested in bitcoin, and of course I wish I bought some earlier, but no more than I wish I bought CSU shares ten years ago. Shoulda woulda coulda.


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## indexxx

marina628 said:


> I have some only because I was owed some money by a program who will only pay that way and every month they send me 1-2 coins since May 12016.Definitely not something I recommend for many people and if I didn't gamble I certainly would not have any.I have a feeling it will go in the 700 dollar range sooner than later and not buying into the hype it will be 2k or more in a year or so.


Who would have thought...

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/cryptocurrency/btcusd


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## sags

Bitcoin is a classic "greater fool" scam based on fake market sales volumes and prices. The "markets" are in China controlled by a couple of people. A small number of people control the whole Bitcoin economy.

A fatal flaw in the blockchain that prevents timely verification of transactions as the blockchain gets longer, is ignored with people convincing themselves that no verification is needed for small purchases. Everything can be done on the trust system..........LOL.

When people say....._oh, it can be used for a cup of coffee which only cost $2_, they fail to recognize that businesses selling coffee rely on all those $2 sales to stay in business. They can't end their days with half the $2 transactions cancelled.

The bitcoin mania will collapse because there is nothing but air and wild speculation supporting it.

It could still run for quite a ways. How much did the price of tulips get to before that mania collapsed ?

A single tulip bulb valued in "barter" terms.

_A list of goods allegedly exchanged for a single bulb of the Viceroy

Two lasts of wheat 
Four lasts of rye	
Four fat oxen	
Eight fat swine	
Twelve fat sheep 
Two hogsheads of wine 
Four tuns of beer	
Two tons of butter	
1,000 lb. of cheese	
A complete bed	
A suit of clothes	
A silver drinking cup	_


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## new dog

Your right sags and the reason I have never bought any is because of the Buffett rule and that is I don't really understand it.


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## james4beach

The cryptocurrencies don't (yet) have the stability that would make them viable currencies.

One of those crypto currencies has quadrupled in price in the last week. What value does such a thing possibly have as a "currency" ?


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## zylon

Note to self: do not take financial advice from ModelPrice Guy.



> I know we had a discussion here about Bitcoin versus gold. Many here thought gold would outperform where I simply stated I would rather hold Bitcoin.
> ~Brian Acker (ModelPrice App on Facebook)


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## cannadispatch

fluidsix2017 said:


> Bitcoin is a great way to diversify a portfolio even if it's just in small increments.
> 
> Please contact for questions or details.


it is too volatile


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## forrory1

I came across Bitcoin a few years back and while I understood the risks involved (still very much the wild wild west) I also saw the opportunity for something like decentralized digital currency. I decided to spend the portion of my portfolio I dedicated to high risk/return investments on bitcoin (playing in the lottery also counts towards this). 

So I bought some with the intention of holding or as Bitcoiner would say "HODL". I've enjoyed watching the price movement day to day and following the developments/drama in the community over the years. It is much more exciting then the stock market most days. I still believe in the technology but I have lost a bit of hope in Bitcoin with all its current scaling/monopoly struggles.

Anyways while it's only a single digit % point of my portfolio it is my most successful "investment" to date. Makes me laugh.


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## marina628

I have seen some nice profits on bitcoin in past 13 months because I have a few places I gamble that take bitcoin and pay in bitcoin , without the gambling connection I would not be in that space.Recently though I bought Ethereum for under $30 a coin (less than 3 months ago) and today look at it.Personally I put a small amount in as many of these coins as I can figure out but I can afford to take the loss ,I have many friends in the gambling community that have paid off mortgages and retired on these coins.Probably a blessing that I am a gambler lol


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## marina628

Another one I have bought is Dash ,my $2000 is now worth over $14,000 https://www.worldcoinindex.com/coin/dash


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## nathan79

I used to mine Bitcoin in 2011-12. I still have them, but it's not enough to retire on. I was going to buy a bunch back in 2012 when the price was only $2 or $3, but I never got around to it. Yeah, I'm kicking myself now.


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## fatcat

its a mistake, in my opinion, to view bitcoin as an asset class though some argue that it is

rather, it is an emerging, not yet fully mature currency that will take time to stabilize and become widely useful to everyday people ... it's a little like the linux operating system, stable and secure in design and function but not user friendly 

so far the system problems have been with theft of coins by virtue of insecure exchanges but these are growing pains, the theoretical structure of the system, the blockchain, is to the best of my knowledge still rock-solid

it has *immense* potential to disrupt payment and banking systems worldwide

imagine if you could keep your liquid assets, your money, on a chipped card that you possesed and had no need at all for any bank, *no more banks .... who the hell doesn't like that idea* *?*


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## marina628

I look at this as penny stocks/gambling and certainly would not be counting on it to retire.My next Gamble is Digibyte current price is $0.065155 ,just bought 25000 coins for under $1700


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## nathan79

marina628 said:


> I look at this as penny stocks/gambling and certainly would not be counting on it to retire.My next Gamble is Digibyte current price is $0.065155 ,just bought 25000 coins for under $1700


Which exchange(s) do you use?


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## marina628

I transferred some Bitcoin into poloniex.com to buy the least known ones , I used exodus.io to buy Dash.


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## forrory1

fatcat said:


> ... it's a little like the linux operating system, stable and secure in design and function but not user friendly *no more banks *


*

I agree. I consider myself a tecksavvy person and still face a challenge with bitcoin wallets, keys etc. Linux never made it on to the desktop computer of every user worldwide but it does run just about everything else from servers directing internet traffic to supercomputers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage...ng_systems_used_on_top_500_supercomputers.svg

Being open source it's hard to know just how many devices run on some version of the linux OS.

I think the same will be true for bitcoin/blockchain, it will run in the background and change currency and assets exchange/possession. Will we be logging into bitcoin software itself... I doubt it. The end user applications/integration will get better. I wouldn't mind seeing out current banking systems pushed into the obsolete pile.*


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## sags

It sounds like it is a lot easier to put money into an exchange than it is to get money out of the exchange.

Some people have been waiting weeks to receive their cash.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/6fadzb/uncertainty_about_using_poloniex/


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## fatcat

there are different options for storing bitcoin, at exchanges or on your own server or completely offline (in your pocket or a safe deposit box or ??)

all present risk (there was the guy that threw away his old hard drive with a million dollars or more of coins on it) of one kind or another ... as does lending money to a bank as james will tell you

the success of bitcoin going forward will be based on the quality of the solutions to problems of security and ease of use

the catastrophes at exchanges should not be taken as indication of bitcoins utility which i think is huge ( by "bitcoin" i mean all blockchain based digital currencies not just the original ... and still king ... bitcoin)


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## Nelley

fatcat said:


> its a mistake, in my opinion, to view bitcoin as an asset class though some argue that it is
> 
> rather, it is an emerging, not yet fully mature currency that will take time to stabilize and become widely useful to everyday people ... it's a little like the linux operating system, stable and secure in design and function but not user friendly
> 
> so far the system problems have been with theft of coins by virtue of insecure exchanges but these are growing pains, the theoretical structure of the system, the blockchain, is to the best of my knowledge still rock-solid
> 
> it has *immense* potential to disrupt payment and banking systems worldwide
> 
> imagine if you could keep your liquid assets, your money, on a chipped card that you possesed and had no need at all for any bank, *no more banks .... who the hell doesn't like that idea* *?*


The problem I have with Bitcoin is I don't understand the premise and apparently nobody can simply explain-in this way it reminds me a lot of previous financial scams-not saying it is-just saying that anything that cannot be simply explained from the overview arouses suspicion. Example: we know where demand for Bitcoin comes from-people give currency and get Bitcoin. Where is the simple explanation for where Supply of Bitcoin is coming from and what is the control on dilution?


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## sags

The blockchain did show promise as a permanent ledger of transactions of all kinds, but the fatal flaw discovered is the reduced number of transactions it can handle and the time it requires to verify transactions. (as the blockchain stores increasing amounts of data)

Just as when a hard drive fills up with data, it takes longer for a computer to find stored data and perform functions.

The geek solution..........."we will figure it out later" just doesn't cut it in the real financial world.

The current speculative price of bitcoin is the dreamers convincing themselves they have discovered a quick path to easy cash.

Buy a bitcoin today and it will be worth $100,000 some day soon. Buy a few and retire. (HODL.....hold on for dear life)

Bitcoins are a millennials wet dream.


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## OnlyMyOpinion

fatcat said:


> its a mistake, in my opinion, to view bitcoin as an asset class though some argue that it is
> 
> rather, it is an emerging, not yet fully mature currency that will take time to stabilize and become widely useful to everyday people ... it's a little like the linux operating system, stable and secure in design and function but not user friendly
> 
> so far the system problems have been with theft of coins by virtue of insecure exchanges but these are growing pains, the theoretical structure of the system, the blockchain, is to the best of my knowledge still rock-solid
> 
> it has *immense* potential to disrupt payment and banking systems worldwide
> 
> imagine if you could keep your liquid assets, your money, on a chipped card that you possesed and had no need at all for any bank, *no more banks .... who the hell doesn't like that idea* *?*


Good summary. Would you say then that unless you are a user of btc, owning it is really just currency speculation? I've never been a currency speculator.

It appears that btc has user fees, and I fail to see why I would want to carry all of my 'cash' around in a 'wallet'. I find my no-fee credit card works just fine. I can lose it and get a replacement, they keep an eye on any suspicious transactions, I can get a spreadsheet summary of all of my transactions, etc. Meanwhile my money is actually invested, earning me a return until such time as I need to pay for my purchases.

Call me a dinosaur, but I don't think the banks and our currency system will be leaving earth before I do.


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## fatcat

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Good summary. Would you say then that unless you are a user of btc, owning it is really just currency speculation? I've never been a currency speculator.
> 
> It appears that btc has user fees, and I fail to see why I would want to carry all of my 'cash' around in a 'wallet'. I find my no-fee credit card works just fine. I can lose it and get a replacement, they keep an eye on any suspicious transactions, I can get a spreadsheet summary of all of my transactions, etc. Meanwhile my money is actually invested, earning me a return until such time as I need to pay for my purchases.
> 
> Call me a dinosaur, but I don't think the banks and our currency system will be leaving earth before I do.


yes absolutely, unless you are using bitcoin to move money and make purchases, you are simply speculating

but this isn't unsual, people make and lose fortunes speculating for an against various countries currencies everday

bitcoin and all of its blockchain crypto currency siblings are just one more option and i agree it will be a long time before we see banks dissappear

i can move money using bank interac email, paypal, wire transfer, apple pay and cash to name a few, bitcoin is just another option

money prefers to move quickly and cheaply and if it can move privately, so much the better, this is what bitcoin can offer, a more frictionless way to move cash

you buy my car and transfer coins instantly from your wallet to my wallet exactly as was done with cash but now is done electronically involving no middlemen or handling costs quickly and completely privately ... and more risk free than cash

i don't know how else to explain the advantages of this currency

it can be used in all kinds of other areas like media for example: https://blog.bigchaindb.com/blockch...stry-hard-just-like-the-internet-aef636ef8067

blockchain technology is going to have a massive disruptive effect in all kinds of ways


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## bootsnixon

For the sake of keeping this interesting conversation going, I would suggest that while your credit card is free to you, it is costing the merchant money. I believe most, not all, cryptocurrencies also have a finite number so you have less concern with inflationary loss of value to your money/wealth. You make good points about the suspicious transactions and the spreadsheet summary as does Sags about the increasing fees/time for bitcoin transactions. I can't help but agree though with Fatcat, in thinking crypto's have immense potential if the bugs can be worked out. The amount we pay to banks to store/transfer our money is high and if crypto's growing presense can help drive those fees down, it can only be a good thing. 
While reading through this forum, I saw a thread - Parking Money - about a person looking to hold some money for 5-10 years and then transfer to Euro's as they prepare for a move to Europe. While it's too early times to suggest this in that thread, I considered that cryptocurrencies could be a very good solution to that problem and could save them significant money in exchange fees and the like.


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## Johnred

I saw an article discussing what is going to happen once the final 21 millionth coin is mined and they made it seem like the network is going to collapse, Bitcoin network anyway. The miners would not justify the costs of the systems and the price will go to zero.

Is that accurate? I have never seen this discussed before and I'm somewhat bitcoin savvy for the past few years. They projected this to happen in 7 years.


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## nathan79

Johnred said:


> I saw an article discussing what is going to happen once the final 21 millionth coin is mined and they made it seem like the network is going to collapse, Bitcoin network anyway. The miners would not justify the costs of the systems and the price will go to zero.
> 
> Is that accurate? I have never seen this discussed before and I'm somewhat bitcoin savvy for the past few years. They projected this to happen in 7 years.


The final coin won't be mined until 2140. Assuming that Bitcoin still exists by that time, its expected that miners will profit mainly from transaction fees.

Here is a good read: https://news.bitcoin.com/what-happens-bitcoin-miners-all-coins-mined/


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## Johnred

Ok cool thanks for that read. 

Yeah the article read as if the writer seemed a bit biased and mad about the entire thing. So I wasn't sure if others have heard contrarian things.


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## gma

A good way to understand if bitcoin is the right investment for you in the current environment is to look at the volatility. Take the bitcoin price chart and zoom into periods where it has gone down. If that were to happen again, would you be ok with it? Would you be ok with not knowing why such a correction took place and why you suddenly have less money? I don't see bitcoin taking off until the volatility is in line with competing asset classes (real currency, gold, etc.)


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## marina628

Bitcoin has increased 400% in past 6 months so it has already taken off , the question now is should you take a chance it will continue to climb .Ethereum has increase 1100-1200% in 3 months but looks cheap compared to bitcoin.Personally I am taking most bitcoin profits and buying other coins with it but playing at a small level in big scheme of things.


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## fatcat

the article is written by the ceo of the company mentioned in the article so it should perhaps be seen as a promotion as much as a news piece

nevertheless this is an interesting and quick read of how the blockchain in going to disrupt the fine art world by allowing the company using it to sell fractional shares of high-value art on the open market thus giving portfolio managers and everyday people the chance to own and invest in partial shares of fine art ...

http://www.ibtimes.com/why-blockchain-future-investing-fine-art-2551733


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## zylon

http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-price-rises-but-retailers-wont-accept-it-7-2017


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## fatcat

bitcoin is still much too complex for the average person to use and that includes businesses unless they are motivated or have a product that is specially conducive to bitcoin

you can buy gold with bitcoin for example at silvergoldbull

when we talk about bitcoin, think less about the "coin" and more about the underlying algorithm, the blockchain

at the moment, bitcoin is primarily a speculative asset class like gold in a way, but the future of bitcoin and indeed a whole whack of competing digital currencies is based on the blockchain which is proving to be quite powerful ... so when you see "bitcoin" just substitute "blockchain"

and i think will be extremely disruptive in all kinds of ways


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## nathan79

Bitcoin is experiencing some growing pains right now, which is leading to higher fees and slower transaction times. Without getting technical, there has been some disagreement between the various players (programmers, miners, etc) on how best to rectify those issues... but in any case, changes to the underlying code will be deployed over the next few months, which should help ease the bottleneck and bring fees down. In the meantime, there is a lot of FUD going around, so there may be some good buying opportunities for those willing to take the risk.


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## lonewolf :)

If there is a main control switch to be able to shut down internet bit coin could run into problems.


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## fatcat

lonewolf :) said:


> If there is a main control switch to be able to shut down internet bit coin could run into problems.


pretty sure that most "traditional" mechanisms for moving money would go with it in that case


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## Tetsujin

What are your thoughts about Ripple? More than 60 international banks are under construction to support Ripple which started as open source in a non-centralized scheme. BMO, CIBC and RBC are between of all those big banks adapting to support Ripple and make transactions between banks and international transfers in seconds. 

And it is still at $US 0.18 or $CAD 0.22

Brief info from Wikipedia, but still not reliable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_(payment_protocol)


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## fatcat

Tetsujin said:


> What are your thoughts about Ripple? More than 60 international banks are under construction to support Ripple which started as open source in a non-centralized scheme. BMO, CIBC and RBC are between of all those big banks adapting to support Ripple and make transactions between banks and international transfers in seconds.
> 
> And it is still at $US 0.18 or $CAD 0.22
> 
> Brief info from Wikipedia, but still not reliable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_(payment_protocol)


on cursory glance it seems to have a huge problem which is that it isn't decentralized ... it's controlled by a single company



> XRP is surging alongside bitcoin and ether as well as smaller digital currencies like dash and monero. They're all benefiting from the growing interest in blockchain, a distributed electronic ledger that makes all transactions trackable. *Unlike other cryptocurrencies on the market, XRP is tied to — and majority-owned by — a single company.*
> 
> 
> That's led to concern among XRP investors and enthusiasts that Ripple will one day decide to capitalize on its massive stake and flood the market with currency. Some venture investors would surely welcome cashing in on some of that value after pouring about $94 million into the company.
> But for people with thousands (or millions) of dollars wrapped up in XRP, the fear of a sudden excess of supply has been unsettling, particularly considering the volatility of the currency. The price fell 13 percent late in the day on Thursday and double-digit daily moves are normal.


that seems a direct contradiction to the model and the value of a cryptocurrency


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## Tetsujin

fatcat said:


> on cursory glance it seems to have a huge problem which is that it isn't decentralized ... it's controlled by a single company
> 
> 
> 
> that seems a direct contradiction to the model and the value of a cryptocurrency


I made a huge typo mistake!

ERRATUM: 
It says: non-centralized
It should say: non-decentralized

You are right. It is not decentralized, however don't you think that for banks' good interest they will manipulate it with "the company" to compete with bitcoin increasing the price? I don't want to short it so soon, but at some point I still think that could be an opportunity to make some money even if it breaks the model of cryptocurrency. There is a risk on everything. That's my point of view.

Last month Ethereum went down to $0.10 in 3 seconds and then recovered to $344. Somebody shorted it to cash money too soon. People lost money with their outstanding limit orders but now is going down since then at $US 225 or $CAD284 and in a couple of days reached $US136. 

I am interested in bitcoin but the price implies too much risk now at that price. 

I don't know but I think that this is another gold fever.


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## fatcat

Tetsujin said:


> I made a huge typo mistake!
> 
> ERRATUM:
> It says: non-centralized
> It should say: non-decentralized
> 
> You are right. It is not decentralized, however don't you think that for banks' good interest they will manipulate it with "the company" to compete with bitcoin increasing the price? I don't want to short it so soon, but at some point I still think that could be an opportunity to make some money even if it breaks the model of cryptocurrency. There is a risk on everything. That's my point of view.
> 
> Last month Ethereum went down to $0.10 in 3 seconds and then recovered to $344. Somebody shorted it to cash money too soon. People lost money with their outstanding limit orders but now is going down since then at $US 225 or $CAD284 and in a couple of days reached $US136.
> 
> I am interested in bitcoin but the price implies too much risk now at that price.
> 
> I don't know but I think that this is another gold fever.


why not just go to the track ? ... at least you'll get some fresh air

i have zero interest in these technologies as investments since i really think they are the equivalent of the crap table

but the implications they have for disruption of much larger businesses are significant

if bitcoin wallets were simple to understand and maintain and businesses large and small started taking bitcoin, this would have a massive disrupting effect on banking

imagine being able to maintain your own stash of bitcoin without any need for banks and being able to just transfer coins form phone to phone and digitally over the net privately ... wow, this will be huge

at the moment it is still much, much, much too complex for the average person


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## nathan79

fatcat said:


> why not just go to the track ? ... at least you'll get some fresh air
> 
> i have zero interest in these technologies as investments since i really think they are the equivalent of the crap table
> 
> but the implications they have for disruption of much larger businesses are significant
> 
> if bitcoin wallets were simple to understand and maintain and businesses large and small started taking bitcoin, this would have a massive disrupting effect on banking
> 
> imagine being able to maintain your own stash of bitcoin without any need for banks and being able to just transfer coins form phone to phone and digitally over the net privately ... wow, this will be huge
> 
> at the moment it is still much, much, much too complex for the average person


Bitcoin is complex, but so is the workings of fiat and the banking system. I think the average person has no clue how any of it works (all they know is "the government prints money"). What matters to people is familiarity and ease of use. People are comfortable with fiat, and there is nothing easier than pulling a dollar bill out of your wallet, or using a debit card. Meanwhile, there are many different types of Bitcoin wallets, and many ways to acquire Bitcoins, some of which are more confusing than others. It's definitely a problem for widespread adotion, but I think these issues will sort themselves out over time. Years from now, currencies like Bitcoin will be very easy to use and exchange for dollars.


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## fatcat

nathan79 said:


> Bitcoin is complex, but so is the workings of fiat and the banking system. I think the average person has no clue how any of it works (all they know is "the government prints money"). What matters to people is familiarity and ease of use. People are comfortable with fiat, and there is nothing easier than pulling a dollar bill out of your wallet, or using a debit card. Meanwhile, there are many different types of Bitcoin wallets, and many ways to acquire Bitcoins, some of which are more confusing than others. It's definitely a problem for widespread adotion, but I think these issues will sort themselves out over time. Years from now, currencies like Bitcoin will be very easy to use and exchange for dollars.


i agree ... in time it will work out ... much money will be made and lost in cryptocurrencies


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## sags

Bitcoin has turned out to be pretty much useless, unless you are sending money to a dark web drug site.

I don't know why anyone would supply an unknown Chinese or Russian website with their banking information.

This is especially true given the long list of bitcoin exchanges and businesses that disappeared with people's money.


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## OnlyMyOpinion

Ok, if you like bitcoin I think you are going to love this opportunity. 
I received the email copied below earlier today. :eek2:

Anyone who wants to send me the personal information the email asks for, I will reply to it on your behalf. I would claim the money myself but I already have enough.  
I'm pretty sure this is legitimate ? 
---------------------------------------------------------
_Congratulation my fellow Lucky winner.
Our names are Richard & Angela Maxwell from Boston UK.

My wife and I won the Euro Millions Lottery of £53 Million British Pounds
and we have voluntarily decided to donate €1,000,000.00 (One Million EURO)
to 5 individuals randomly as part of our own charity project.

To verify our lottery winnings,please see our interview by visiting the
web page below:

www telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/11511467/Lincolnshire-couple-win-53m-on-EuroMillions

After a computer spin-ball,your email address was among the 5 random
emails which were submitted to us by the Google, Inc as a web user; if you
have received our email, kindly send us the below details so that we can
transfer your €1,000,000.00 (One Million EURO) in your name or direct our
offshore paying bank to effect the transfer of the funds to your
designated bank account in your own country.

Full Names:
Mobile No:
Age:
Full Address:
Occupation:

Send your response to our email [deleted]
Best Regards,
Richard & Angela Maxwell_


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## Brainer

Well, perhaps an enormous asteroid hitting the earth. You're forgetting that the Internet, and TCP/IP were originally designed to be fault-tolerant enough to withstand a partial nuclear war. So no, there is no kill switch.





lonewolf :) said:


> If there is a main control switch to be able to shut down internet bit coin could run into problems.


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## lonewolf :)

goggle search indicates in interest of U.S homeland security there is a main control switch. T or F don't know


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## nathan79

KAVABANGA said:


> Do you think a short on bitcoin is a good trade? Short from current level I mean.
> https://www.tradingview.com/chart/BTCUSD/hwvBAK6w-BTC/


It looks like the time to short was the beginning of July, but we're already above that level. As of now it looks like segwit will go ahead with minimal drama. There's also the recent bitcoin options approval, which could give it a lift: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-become-available-in-fall-after-cftc-approval


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## OnlyMyOpinion

KAVABANGA said:


> ... sorry guys for late updates...


Not to worry, I for one wasn't expecting any updates.
What does God have to do with bitcoin?
And who is Al and what does he have reconcile?


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## marina628

I just sold last of my bitcoin today and netted mid five digits,I decided to gift this to my oldest for RSP and tfsa because in reality these coins cost me nothing but a bit of time. I still have 62 other coins I have been putting smallish weekly deposits into and been trading on these accounts more or less for fun.This definitely turned out much differently than i thought a year ago but I don't want to risk what is life changing to my oldest and see it go to nothing which i believe can still be a real possibility.I currently play at one site which is making me around .5 -1 coin a month based on current values, I will switch these into other coins and not sell any of these.


----------



## sags

At $3400 USD each bitcoins have a market cap of $56,000,000,000............and have almost zero functionality.


----------



## sags

I gotta think up some scam...............sheesh.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

I think Bitcoin and the like will go down as the biggest pyramid scheme in history. Those who got in early are lucky. Those who are late to the party will loose everything.

There is a reason it is not going anywhere. Those who think that this can actually be currency are delusional. The idea of decentralization seems great. But there is always someone (or something) in control. Just look at the price fluctuations. Do you trust that "someone" to control your money?? 

My theory is that someone created this digital currency with the hopes that a government would snatch the idea, which obviously backfired. 

I find it funny that Bitcoin is not being viewed nor used as a currency but as an 'investment' instead.

I am not a gambler so I stay far from these schemes.


----------



## nathan79

sags said:


> At $3400 USD each bitcoins have a market cap of $56,000,000,000............*and have almost zero functionality.*


Not true, but I understand why you feel that way -- you live in a country with a strong central bank and low inflation. You might feel differently if you lived somewhere like Venezuela...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realsp...sis-is-a-case-study-for-bitcoin/#39e2c17219b2



> With the Venezuelan bolivar essentially worthless and supplies rapidly running out, Bitcoin is rising as an answer. According to Bitcoin brokerage Surbitcoin.com, the number of Venezuelan users skyrocketed, from 450 in August 2014 to more than 85,000 in November 2016.





> The fact that Bitcoin is not within government control scares nations with a strong central bank, but for nations with currency in disarray, Bitcoin is a relatively stable investment.


----------



## nathan79

Mortgage u/w said:


> I think Bitcoin and the like will go down as the biggest pyramid scheme in history. Those who got in early are lucky. Those who are late to the party will loose everything.


Substitute "Bitcoin" with "Vancouver Real Estate" and you could make the same argument, except I'd say there's a better chance of making money in Bitcoin right now.


----------



## sags

I think government created the bitcoin to entice and convince drug peddlers, gun sellers, terrorists and criminals that there was a foolproof way to move money anonymously, so they would use it and reveal themselves and their networks.

The NSA is more than likely the creator of bitcoin and there have already been arrests and convictions of criminals.

Who knows what other information the security agencies have gained for future reference.


----------



## marina628

I got introduced to bitcoin because of my online gambling ,it was definitely not something I viewed as an investment and mostly treated it like a hot potato ,could not get it out of my hands fast enough.But bitcoin converts to cash easy enough these days and there are actually credit cards you can load the cards on and spend although I personally have never used them.I also don't care about keeping my identity private so have linked my account to my wallets and pay taxes on anything I have to.


----------



## sags

I follow bitcoin news on some of the forums.

They are having a "love in" right now...............lol

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/


----------



## sags

Unfortunately, what I often see in the bitcoin message forums are posts from people currently living in poverty in countries around the world who are desperately hoping owning a few bitcoins will provide a better life in the future.

They are gambling everything they can put together on a hope and a prayer.

It is sad because I think the fortunes in bitcoin have already been made.


----------



## nathan79

sags said:


> Unfortunately, what I often see in the bitcoin message forums are posts from people currently living in poverty in countries around the world who are desperately hoping owning a few bitcoins will provide a better life in the future.
> 
> They are gambling everything they can put together on a hope and a prayer.
> 
> It is sad because I think the fortunes in bitcoin have already been made.


Possibly, but I believe it's inevitable that a global currency eventually goes mainstream. It may be Bitcoin, another crypto like Ethereum, or something not yet invented. Bitcoin is the leading contender, for now.


----------



## sags

Internet....computers....smartphones......not exactly the most reliable of devices or services for crypto-currencies to rely on.

Maybe someday, but there will have be major improvements in communication systems first.


----------



## fatcat

nathan79 said:


> Possibly, but I believe it's inevitable that a global currency eventually goes mainstream. It may be Bitcoin, another crypto like Ethereum, or something not yet invented. Bitcoin is the leading contender, for now.


right, we need to stop focusing on bitcoin and / or ethereum and start thinking abou the underlying technology and concept of the decentralized blockchain which has the potential to massively disrupt all kinds of businesses like art and music not to mention banking and the movement of money

as the world speeds up there will be a concomitant need for moving money faster and cheaper, that it can be private and uncontrolled by state actors, so much the better

bitcoin doesn't matter a hoot, it may last or it may fall to earth, but as you say, one of these will go mainstream and will begin to both widely adopted, easier to use and more secure ... thus is a certainty and a LOT of money will be made by those who know how to make this happen


----------



## Mortgage u/w

nathan79 said:


> Substitute "Bitcoin" with "Vancouver Real Estate" and you could make the same argument, except I'd say there's a better chance of making money in Bitcoin right now.


Since when did currency become an investment rather than a commodity? Do you buy other currencies simply to make a quick buck too? I understand your statement in a pure investment and speculative point of view. But I think you (and everyone else) are missing the point and objective of "currency" in general. Supporters are not viewing Bitcoin as a currency, but as a get-rich-quick scheme instead. So not only is Bitcoin just a digital code, it is no longer serving its intended purpose. "Invest" if you wish - but remember that you are gambling on an idea that has lost its purpose.


----------



## JWC

https://cointelegraph.com/news/legendary-bitcoin-trader-masterluc-predicts-15000-bitcoin-this-year

Pretty bold claim... $15,000 by end of year.


----------



## JWC

For those of you that buy/hold BTC, what service do you use/recommend?


----------



## new dog

Maybe we should be buying this crypto currency.

https://coinmarketcap.com/assets/fucktoken/

It is crazy and I have never heard about it until today.


----------



## sags

And then one day the internet exchange vanished with all the money...............poof.

But it is okay. Investors can call the RCMP and tell them a guy named Ivan in Bulgaria disappeared with their money.


----------



## Johnred

Buy Bitcoin, use trusted exchanges, keep only what u need to trade on the exchange.


----------



## Kuznec

sags said:


> And then one day the internet exchange vanished with all the money...............poof.
> 
> But it is okay. Investors can call the RCMP and tell them a guy named Ivan in Bulgaria disappeared with their money.


Sooner or later it will happen, then millions of indignant and deceived will begin to demand justice, only from whom?


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-41276348
Largest Chinese exchange closing. ..."worse than tulip bulbs"...


----------



## sags

Bitcoin has fallen from $4800 to $3000. It is going down as fast as it went up.


----------



## nathan79

Thinking of buying a bit more at current prices.

Sold some a while back and bought some other coins... Litecoin, Ether, etc.


----------



## forrory1

JWC said:


> For those of you that buy/hold BTC, what service do you use/recommend?


I recommend Coinbase. It is an American Bitcoin exchange company which for a time was operating here in Canada but has since pulled out. They follow all required FINTRAC regulation in the US.
As a Canadian you can still buy at Coinbase via credit card. There is 3% fee I believe but this beats the rates/price disparity on Canadian exchanges from what I've seen. We just don't have the market depth at this point.

Do not keep your coins on the exchange this is bad security practice. *If you do not own you own private keys to your coins you do not own your coins.*

Also enable 2 factor authentication on Coinbase and do not use SMS options as one of the factors use Google authenticator or Authy app.

HODL


----------



## forrory1

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> http://www.bbc.com/news/business-41276348
> Largest Chinese exchange closing. ..."worse than tulip bulbs"...


There is a lot of misinformation "FUD" floating around with regards to Bitcoin. Yes Chinese exchange were force by the government to shutdown operations (uninformed people panicked and the price dropped) while they put together a Cryptocurrency license at which point these exchanges will be able to apply for licences and able to operate within the law. Implementation of regulation is not a "Ban" even if the governments wished to ban Cryptocurrencies anything short of shutting down the internet would prove ineffective. Some countries have already embraced Cryptocurrencies such as South Korea, Japan and a few others. It will be interesting to see what Russia decides as this might be a way for them to skirt sanctions.

This technology has many uses as the banks have now started to admit... 
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/re...36414970/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

Personally I like the idea of having full control over my money. No central banks/Government control.

PS. Tulipmainia is fake news.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/there-never-was-real-tulip-fever-180964915/
https://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/10/economic-history


----------



## Eaglyeye

forrory1 said:


> I recommend Coinbase. It is an American Bitcoin exchange company which for a time was operating here in Canada but has since pulled out. They follow all required FINTRAC regulation in the US.
> As a Canadian you can still buy at Coinbase via credit card. There is 3% fee I believe but this beats the rates/price disparity on Canadian exchanges from what I've seen. We just don't have the market depth at this point.
> 
> Do not keep your coins on the exchange this is bad security practice. *If you do not own you own private keys to your coins you do not own your coins.*
> 
> Also enable 2 factor authentication on Coinbase and do not use SMS options as one of the factors use Google authenticator or Authy app.
> 
> HODL


Check out Quadrigacx its Canadian based. I think they charge less than 3% .


----------



## fatcat

forrory1 said:


> There is a lot of misinformation "FUD" floating around with regards to Bitcoin. Yes Chinese exchange were force by the government to shutdown operations (uninformed people panicked and the price dropped) while they put together a Cryptocurrency license at which point these exchanges will be able to apply for licences and able to operate within the law. Implementation of regulation is not a "Ban" even if the governments wished to ban Cryptocurrencies anything short of shutting down the internet would prove ineffective. Some countries have already embraced Cryptocurrencies such as South Korea, Japan and a few others. It will be interesting to see what Russia decides as this might be a way for them to skirt sanctions.
> 
> This technology has many uses as the banks have now started to admit...
> https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/re...36414970/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&
> 
> Personally I like the idea of having full control over my money. No central banks/Government control.
> 
> PS. Tulipmainia is fake news.
> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/there-never-was-real-tulip-fever-180964915/
> https://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/10/economic-history


good post thanks ... i like the idea of just printing out a paper wallet and keeping it secure ... not using an exchange is a smart idea ... understanding enough to control your own coins is key to using bitcoin

there was a time when using a modem was a magical, mysterious, complex process and now people hook themselves up on line with relative ease

the same kind of evolution will happen with bitcoin as the technical complexity works itself out for the average user


----------



## sags

I send Canadian dollars by email all the time for 50 cents a transaction. What problem do bitcoins solve ?


----------



## nathan79

sags said:


> I send Canadian dollars by email all the time for 50 cents a transaction. What problem do bitcoins solve ?


Yeah, but there's a pretty low limit on the amount, and it's useless for international transactions.


----------



## Johnred

fatcat said:


> good post thanks ... i like the idea of just printing out a paper wallet and keeping it secure ... not using an exchange is a smart idea ... understanding enough to control your own coins is key to using bitcoin
> 
> there was a time when using a modem was a magical, mysterious, complex process and now people hook themselves up on line with relative ease
> 
> the same kind of evolution will happen with bitcoin as the technical complexity works itself out for the average user


Another thing you can do is use a hardware wallet, they cost a bit but if you plan on holding a lot its smart. They're around $100 and offer extreme encryption.


----------



## boingboing

Nelley said:


> The problem I have with Bitcoin is I don't understand the premise and apparently nobody can simply explain-in this way it reminds me a lot of previous financial scams-not saying it is-just saying that anything that cannot be simply explained from the overview arouses suspicion. Example: we know where demand for Bitcoin comes from-people give currency and get Bitcoin. Where is the simple explanation for where Supply of Bitcoin is coming from and what is the control on dilution?


Overwhelmingly i think most people get involved with bitcoin because they just see it as a quick-cash scheme and nothing more. For me, i have been incredibly facinating by cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and Ethereum solely from a technical standpoint. I have invested but in a much different way. I just don't think most even know why bitcoin is even useful in this world and why it came to be in the first place. smh. I personally think its important to understand as much of this relatively nascent (and crowded) field before putting one's lifesavings. But then most are just looking to get in and out regardless of its impact on the world.


----------



## fatcat

boingboing said:


> Overwhelmingly i think most people get involved with bitcoin because they just see it as a quick-cash scheme and nothing more. For me, i have been incredibly facinating by cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and Ethereum solely from a technical standpoint. I have invested but in a much different way. I just don't think most even know why bitcoin is even useful in this world and why it came to be in the first place. smh. I personally think its important to understand as much of this relatively nascent (and crowded) field before putting one's lifesavings. But then most are just looking to get in and out regardless of its impact on the world.


two things, first, the blockchain has the potential to revolutionize the way things are bought and sold, allowing transparent, inexpensive exchange of ownership on a wide range of things .... like digital media as monegraph is doing https://monegraph.com/ or art https://creators.vice.com/en_uk/article/z4q7w5/a-new-model-for-selling

as to bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, the advantages are obvious, frictionless, virtually free and lightning fast exchange of currencies across all global boundaries with complete privacy and the ability to virtually become your own banker without the hassle of actual currency ... unlike paypal, bank e-transfer and things like square it’s a peer to peer currency which requires no intermediary

you can carry 10 dollars or a hundred million dollars on a usb stick in your pocket ... not sure what else you would want in a currency ? ok, maybe ease of use and absolute security which are not quite there yet, being your own banker has risks

as a speculative investment, it sucks ... as i say, why not go to the track and at least get some fresh air ?

don’t look at bitcoin, look at the blockchain, that’s where the value is


----------



## forrory1

Eaglyeye said:


> Check out Quadrigacx its Canadian based. I think they charge less than 3% .


I have tried this exchange. I've done back to back comparisons each time and Coinbase has always been cheaper. The price spread has been to great on Quadrigacx.



Fatcat: "don’t look at bitcoin, look at the blockchain, that’s where the value is"

While I agree that the real promise here is in the open source blockchain tech investing in blockchain is not so easy due to its open source nature. It is such a moving target in the sense that blockchains are popping up all over the place to do everything from share solar power, keep international contracts, store medical information to transfering ownership of items. Banks have private blockchains etc. Many businesses/governments will gain efficiency from the implementation of blockchains. 

How are we as investors to pick out which blockchain/company/government will benefit the most and come to market first? Maybe search out where the best developers are and which projects they are working on? 

Bitcoin core developers are currently considered the best in the world at the moment to my knowledge. They are working on scaling, securing, improving privacy and censorship of Bitcoin.

R


----------



## sags

The bitcoin developers are fighting over possible ways to prop up the blockchain so it continues to work. 

Big changes slated for Novermber and a "hard fork" in the blockchain to relieve lengthy delays in verification of transactions.

The flaws in the theory are evident.


----------



## forrory1

sags said:


> The bitcoin developers are fighting over possible ways to prop up the blockchain so it continues to work.
> 
> Big changes slated for Novermber and a "hard fork" in the blockchain to relieve lengthy delays in verification of transactions.
> 
> The flaws in the theory are evident.


I see a bit of misinformation here. 

Bitcoin core developers are not fighting and have actually been working together rather well towards common goals. That being said Bitcoin software is open source and anyone at any point is free to take the project in whatever directions they see fit. This is what you see happening.

There are groups within the bitcoin space who would like the protocol to function in a different manner or follow a different set of "rules" they have copied the code and modified it (poorly) to suit their interests.

Examples of this are BitcoinCash which upped the blocksize (transaction handling capacity) from 1MB to 8MB. The individuals responsible for this were mainly focused around miners and mostly located in China. Miners directly benefit from an increased block size as it allows them to collect more fees. If you look at BitcoinCash today you will see the transaction volume on that chain is well below requiring even 1MB capacity blocks. If fact there is some evidence that suggests some actors were actually spamming the original Bitcoin network with meaningless transactions in an effort to support their opinions that the network had reached capacity and required a blocksize increase to 8MB.

During this debate Bitcoin core devs has proposed a technical solution which instead of increasing the blocksize would allow for an increased number of transactions (density) to fit within the current 1MB block size. This solution also happened to disable an advantage Chinese miners had been suspected of exploiting leading to a 20% increase in profits over other miners (they have actually patented this technology calling it ASICBOOST).

Here is a link to the current pending transactions on the Bitcoin blockchain. With the scale set to 3 months you will notice large spike which are the suspected spam attacks on the network (Pre-fork) leading to delayed transaction times. By design you can look into these Bitcoin transactions and others have found that they were moving meaningless amounts of currency back and forth and originating from common addresses in an effort to raise the total fees. Also you will notice the lack of transaction delays/high fees today.
https://core.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#3m


The current proposed fork is called Segwit2X. It was an attempted compromise between Bitcoin groups which wanted blocksize increased to 8MB and Bitcoin core dev solution called Segregated Witness which allowed for more transaction capacity within 1MB blocks.
Problem was this agreement was made behind closed door without the technical input of the Bitcoin core development team. This agreement proposed the network upgrade to 2MB blocks and include Segregated Witness feature. With an implementation schedule broken down into a few stages. First Segwit would be voted and passed in Aug then implemented shortly after. With Segwit now live and working we are approaching the Nov date when the block size increase was scheduled for. Something the core devs never agreed to and something the network does not require (see above chart in link). Those who wish to implement this change will see themselves on another "fork" of the project. 

The point I am trying to make here along with giving some insight is that the development of Bitcoin by design is outsourced to all. By design the best solutions and ideas will be implemented and not that of CEOs or special interest groups who wish to control it. The core dev is compromised of computer scientists who are proposing technical solutions which the community/users are agreeing or disagreeing with.


SegWit 
I want to expand on SegWit a little more. The implementation of SegWit into the Bitcoin software allows for a host of new features like drivechains, sidechains and lightning network. This is important because it allows for the transfer of coins from peer to peer without requiring miners and transactions records in blocks on the main blockchain. Essentially Starbucks could has a private sidechain where by in store transactions are contained and processed immediately (for free) within their servers and later pooled then verified on the main blockchain. This removes the requirement for the main blockchain to scale to the degree of having to host all transactions occurring world wide. Which allows the hardware requirements for all computers hosting bitcoin software (running the network) to stay low (currently an old Pentium laptop with 150GB storage and 4GB RAM) this insures bitcoin stays decentralized and secure.

Starbucks costs to process 10 minutes worth of transactions at all their stores would costs $.25 USD in todays enviroment. Hench why miners did not want to see the feature implemented.

R


----------



## fatcat

mods, both this thread and the “who got in bitcoin early” thread are essentially talking about the same thing, which is a general discussion of bitcoin, can we get these two threads merged ?


----------



## Johnred

forrory1 said:


> I have tried this exchange. I've done back to back comparisons each time and Coinbase has always been cheaper. The price spread has been to great on Quadrigacx.
> 
> 
> 
> Fatcat: "don’t look at bitcoin, look at the blockchain, that’s where the value is"
> 
> While I agree that the real promise here is in the open source blockchain tech investing in blockchain is not so easy due to its open source nature. It is such a moving target in the sense that blockchains are popping up all over the place to do everything from share solar power, keep international contracts, store medical information to transfering ownership of items. Banks have private blockchains etc. Many businesses/governments will gain efficiency from the implementation of blockchains.
> 
> How are we as investors to pick out which blockchain/company/government will benefit the most and come to market first? Maybe search out where the best developers are and which projects they are working on?
> 
> Bitcoin core developers are currently considered the best in the world at the moment to my knowledge. They are working on scaling, securing, improving privacy and censorship of Bitcoin.
> 
> R





sags said:


> The bitcoin developers are fighting over possible ways to prop up the blockchain so it continues to work.
> 
> Big changes slated for Novermber and a "hard fork" in the blockchain to relieve lengthy delays in verification of transactions.
> 
> The flaws in the theory are evident.





forrory1 said:


> I see a bit of misinformation here.
> 
> Bitcoin core developers are not fighting and have actually been working together rather well towards common goals. That being said Bitcoin software is open source and anyone at any point is free to take the project in whatever directions they see fit. This is what you see happening.
> 
> There are groups within the bitcoin space who would like the protocol to function in a different manner or follow a different set of "rules" they have copied the code and modified it (poorly) to suit their interests.
> 
> Examples of this are BitcoinCash which upped the blocksize (transaction handling capacity) from 1MB to 8MB. The individuals responsible for this were mainly focused around miners and mostly located in China. Miners directly benefit from an increased block size as it allows them to collect more fees. If you look at BitcoinCash today you will see the transaction volume on that chain is well below requiring even 1MB capacity blocks. If fact there is some evidence that suggests some actors were actually spamming the original Bitcoin network with meaningless transactions in an effort to support their opinions that the network had reached capacity and required a blocksize increase to 8MB.
> 
> During this debate Bitcoin core devs has proposed a technical solution which instead of increasing the blocksize would allow for an increased number of transactions (density) to fit within the current 1MB block size. This solution also happened to disable an advantage Chinese miners had been suspected of exploiting leading to a 20% increase in profits over other miners (they have actually patented this technology calling it ASICBOOST).
> 
> Here is a link to the current pending transactions on the Bitcoin blockchain. With the scale set to 3 months you will notice large spike which are the suspected spam attacks on the network (Pre-fork) leading to delayed transaction times. By design you can look into these Bitcoin transactions and others have found that they were moving meaningless amounts of currency back and forth and originating from common addresses in an effort to raise the total fees. Also you will notice the lack of transaction delays/high fees today.
> https://core.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#3m
> 
> 
> The current proposed fork is called Segwit2X. It was an attempted compromise between Bitcoin groups which wanted blocksize increased to 8MB and Bitcoin core dev solution called Segregated Witness which allowed for more transaction capacity within 1MB blocks.
> Problem was this agreement was made behind closed door without the technical input of the Bitcoin core development team. This agreement proposed the network upgrade to 2MB blocks and include Segregated Witness feature. With an implementation schedule broken down into a few stages. First Segwit would be voted and passed in Aug then implemented shortly after. With Segwit now live and working we are approaching the Nov date when the block size increase was scheduled for. Something the core devs never agreed to and something the network does not require (see above chart in link). Those who wish to implement this change will see themselves on another "fork" of the project.
> 
> The point I am trying to make here along with giving some insight is that the development of Bitcoin by design is outsourced to all. By design the best solutions and ideas will be implemented and not that of CEOs or special interest groups who wish to control it. The core dev is compromised of computer scientists who are proposing technical solutions which the community/users are agreeing or disagreeing with.
> 
> 
> SegWit
> I want to expand on SegWit a little more. The implementation of SegWit into the Bitcoin software allows for a host of new features like drivechains, sidechains and lightning network. This is important because it allows for the transfer of coins from peer to peer without requiring miners and transactions records in blocks on the main blockchain. Essentially Starbucks could has a private sidechain where by in store transactions are contained and processed immediately (for free) within their servers and later pooled then verified on the main blockchain. This removes the requirement for the main blockchain to scale to the degree of having to host all transactions occurring world wide. Which allows the hardware requirements for all computers hosting bitcoin software (running the network) to stay low (currently an old Pentium laptop with 150GB storage and 4GB RAM) this insures bitcoin stays decentralized and secure.
> 
> Starbucks costs to process 10 minutes worth of transactions at all their stores would costs $.25 USD in todays enviroment. Hench why miners did not want to see the feature implemented.
> 
> R



Yeah I go back and forth between the Q and Coinbase but we can't sell on the latter. I do the trading on Bitfinex. Thanks for the tip on CB ending up being cheaper. I have been meaning to check that new one in Toronto called Coinsquare, updated website. Great write up explaining the fork to those who don't understand it and think its some sort failure. It couldn't be further off base.


----------



## Eaglyeye

forrory1 said:


> I have tried this exchange. I've done back to back comparisons each time and Coinbase has always been cheaper. The price spread has been to great on Quadrigacx.
> 
> R


Not sure if i am missing something here but here is what i found on Q' s website 

"Yes, we charge a 0.5% fee on all completed trades on the following order books BTC/CAD, BTC/USD, ETH/CAD, LTC/CAD & BCH/CAD. The fee on the ETH/BTC order book is 0.2%.

Note that the fee does not apply to open orders, and is only charged after a trade is executed."


----------



## forrory1

Eaglyeye Yes their advertised transaction fees are lower then Coinbase. But this is not the only factor to consider. In my experience if you try to place the same order amount in CAD Quadrigax and Coinbase I have noticed I get more BTC on Coinbase.

I have found this to because the price you can buy BTC is better on Coinbase. For example right now Quadrigax Buy price is $7190 CAD & Coinbase is $7075 CAD. You just pay more per BTC on Quadrigax. In the end your methods of funding accounts between the two also adds/saves cost.

R


----------



## Eaglyeye

forrory1 said:


> Eaglyeye Yes their advertised transaction fees are lower then Coinbase. But this is not the only factor to consider. In my experience if you try to place the same order amount in CAD Quadrigax and Coinbase I have noticed I get more BTC on Coinbase.
> 
> I have found this to because the price you can buy BTC is better on Coinbase. For example right now Quadrigax Buy price is $7190 CAD & Coinbase is $7075 CAD. You just pay more per BTC on Quadrigax. In the end your methods of funding accounts between the two also adds/saves cost.
> 
> R


You are correct, although i dont agree 100% as i know for a fact that you cannot sell any BTC if you are in Canada (not sure if this has changed) . So when you factor in the process of transferring out your btc and cashing it out elsewhere (adding withdrawal fees/commision) it might up end being higher then Quadriga . Also the funding is not too bad for Q , we can transfer upto 10k for as low as 35$ .


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Fees, commissions, $35/$10k? - do we know who is profiting from crypto transactions? 

With bank fees I can recoup as a shareholder. Wondering if that can that be done in the crypto world?


----------



## forrory1

Eaglyeye said:


> we can transfer upto 10k for as low as 35$ .


This is good to know!

True you can not sell on Coinbase as a Canadian since they pulled out of Canada. Might affect some people but personally I don't sell. I only HODL (Hold On for Dear Life).

PS to everyone.. Never store coins on any exchange unless transacting. Always hold your coins in wallets for which only you control the private keys. Not your keys = Not your coins.

R


----------



## Eaglyeye

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Fees, commissions, $35/$10k? - do we know who is profiting from crypto transactions?
> 
> With bank fees I can recoup as a shareholder. Wondering if that can that be done in the crypto world?


Well this 35$ fees is for the bank for wire transfer .


----------



## Eaglyeye

forrory1 said:


> This is good to know!
> 
> True you can not sell on Coinbase as a Canadian since they pulled out of Canada. Might affect some people but personally I don't sell. I only HODL (Hold On for Dear Life).
> 
> PS to everyone.. Never store coins on any exchange unless transacting. Always hold your coins in wallets for which only you control the private keys. Not your keys = Not your coins.
> 
> R


Good to know, will have to get my own wallet . Any recommendations ?


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Re wallet, go with good quality full grain leather. Everyone has their own preference. I like a pretty minimalist wallet, called a 'book' style I think (as opposed to 'billfold' style), room for some cash, a couple of credit cards and drive's licence. Others like a built in photo album, coin pocket, etc. "Are you happy to see me or is that your wallet".

View attachment 16561


What? Oh we're talking about digital wallets. Can we implant those under the skin yet?


----------



## fatcat

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Re wallet, go with good quality full grain leather. Everyone has their own preference. I like a pretty minimalist wallet, called a 'book' style I think (as opposed to 'billfold' style), room for some cash, a couple of credit cards and drive's licence. Others like a built in photo album, coin pocket, etc. "Are you happy to see me or is that your wallet".
> View attachment 16561
> What? Oh we're talking about digital wallets. *Can we implant those under the skin yet?*


of course .... https://news.bitcoin.com/bio-implantable-bitcoin-growing-popular/


----------



## Johnred

Eaglyeye said:


> Good to know, will have to get my own wallet . Any recommendations ?


I have a Trezor, its so encrypted you can have active malware on your computer and you'll be fine.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

​IBM debuts blockchain network for cross-border payments
http://www.zdnet.com/article/ibm-debuts-blockchain-network-for-cross-border-payments/


----------



## Mzeus

im totally agree with u​


----------



## fatcat

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> ​IBM debuts blockchain network for cross-border payments
> http://www.zdnet.com/article/ibm-debuts-blockchain-network-for-cross-border-payments/


great article, this is what people should be looking at, not the rollercoaster ride of bitcoin ... payments that used to take weeks are now cleared and settled ... in real time .... that’s the power that bitcoin exemplifies


----------



## james4beach

fatcat said:


> great article, this is what people should be looking at, not the rollercoaster ride of bitcoin ... payments that used to take weeks are now cleared and settled ... in real time .... that’s the power that bitcoin exemplifies


I think you meant "that's the power that blockchains..."

The IBM system is not based on bitcoin. By the way, bitcoin transactions take at least an hour to settle due to the slow process of inserting new entries into a distributed blockchain. Confidence that the payment is complete rises asymptotically and you probably must wait about an hour to be really sure that the transaction is good.

Otherwise, someone can double spend a bitcoin (cheat/steal) and it may take tens of minutes to discover that. Other blockchain technologies don't have this problem.


----------



## forrory1

http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-price-how-to-value-fundstrat-tom-lee-2017-10

One of the best interviews/explanations I've come across to date.

What are your thoughts on his comparison to gold? And the networks style growth of this (new?) asset class?

R


----------



## sags

Governments want to know where all the money located. They want to be able to tax the money. They "need" to know what the money is buying for security reasons.

Governments can and will shut down bitcoins if it wants to do so. All they have to do is declare bitcoins an illegal currency and forbid financial institutions to deal with it.

Governments maintain authority with laws, police, courts and prisons. 

Some people using bitcoins for illegal activities have already discovered how powerful the government is..........see Ross Ulbright and Silk Road.

Sentenced to life in prison and appeal denied.

https://www.wired.com/2017/05/silk-road-creator-ross-ulbricht-loses-life-sentence-appeal/

If the government declared bitcoins illegal.........would people dare to continue to use them ? 

I think not.


----------



## nathan79

sags said:


> Governments want to know where all the money located. They want to be able to tax the money. They "need" to know what the money is buying for security reasons.
> 
> Governments can and will shut down bitcoins if it wants to do so. All they have to do is declare bitcoins an illegal currency and forbid financial institutions to deal with it.


That would be a colossal mistake. If they forbid financial institutions from dealing with Bitcoin, any hope of actually collecting taxes from it would disappear. I think most governments see more logic in regulating Bitcoin exchanges, like Japan is doing. https://www.coindesk.com/japan-draft-regulation-bitcoin-exchanges/

Think about marijuana -- governments have wasted billions of dollars trying to prohibit its use. Now, with legalization they can actually collect taxes and bring the economy above ground rather than letting criminals run the show.

In terms of being able to trace money, cash is still a much bigger liability than Bitcoin. Should the government stop issuing cash? One doesn't need any financial institution to buy Bitcoin. You can buy them in person with cash.


----------



## nathan79

james4beach said:


> By the way, bitcoin transactions take at least an hour to settle due to the slow process of inserting new entries into a distributed blockchain. Confidence that the payment is complete rises asymptotically and you probably must wait about an hour to be really sure that the transaction is good.
> 
> Otherwise, someone can double spend a bitcoin (cheat/steal) and it may take tens of minutes to discover that. Other blockchain technologies don't have this problem.


That's only partially true. For most intents and purposes, one confirmation (about 10 minutes) is plenty safe for low-value transactions. Retailers may even accept 0-confirmation transactions for very small amounts (coffee, etc), or for trusted customers. For higher value transactions, one should allow 3 or more confirmations depending on risk tolerance. By this point, the chance of a double spend is negligible. After 6 confirmations, it's mathematically impossible to double spend unless one controlled 10% of the network hashrate.

One advantage of Bitcoin and similar payments compared to credit cards is that retailers have the money within an hour (as opposed to weeks for credit card payments), and there's no way for the customer to initiate a charge-back.


----------



## forrory1

sags said:


> Governments want to know where all the money located. They want to be able to tax the money. They "need" to know what the money is buying for security reasons.
> 
> Governments can and will shut down bitcoins if it wants to do so. All they have to do is declare bitcoins an illegal currency and forbid financial institutions to deal with it.
> 
> Governments maintain authority with laws, police, courts and prisons.
> 
> Some people using bitcoins for illegal activities have already discovered how powerful the government is..........see Ross Ulbright and Silk Road.
> 
> Sentenced to life in prison and appeal denied.
> 
> https://www.wired.com/2017/05/silk-road-creator-ross-ulbricht-loses-life-sentence-appeal/
> 
> If the government declared bitcoins illegal.........would people dare to continue to use them ?
> 
> I think not.



Drugs are illegal and harmful and yet they are widely available. In fact there are many stores operating outside the law in selling marijuana just around the corner. The war on drugs was/is a huge waste of money. Governments have learned this and started to change their tunes as decriminalization is now in progress.

If governments can shutdown Bitcoin why haven't they? How do you propose this could be done? The economic impact of shutting down the internet would greatly outweigh any benefit and throw a country into the dark ages. And ultimately shutting down the internet would not stop bitcoin as it can be broadcast via satellite (already in place) and radio waves.

Bitcoin adoption is well on it's way. Forward looking countries will adapt and prosper. Governments will find new ways to collect tax, this I can assure you of. I just hope it is a fairer/more efficient system then we have today.

R


----------



## fatcat

I’m


sags said:


> Governments want to know where all the money located. They want to be able to tax the money. They "need" to know what the money is buying for security reasons.
> 
> Governments can and will shut down bitcoins if it wants to do so. All they have to do is declare bitcoins an illegal currency and forbid financial institutions to deal with it.
> 
> Governments maintain authority with laws, police, courts and prisons.
> 
> Some people using bitcoins for illegal activities have already discovered how powerful the government is..........see Ross Ulbright and Silk Road.
> 
> Sentenced to life in prison and appeal denied.
> 
> https://www.wired.com/2017/05/silk-road-creator-ross-ulbricht-loses-life-sentence-appeal/
> 
> If the government declared bitcoins illegal.........would people dare to continue to use them ?
> 
> I think not.


bringing ulbricht as an argument against bitcoin is bizarre ... he was convicted of a range of crimes, he isn’t in jail because of bitcoin ... crooks use cash diamonds and gold to do business, you don’t see them being made illegal ... as to governments, as has been pointed out, many are embracing bitcoin, Japan being the best and most well known example, you need to some actual research, the blockchain is revolutionizing finance and all of wall street knows it and are jockeying to get in, jamie dimons self-serving bullshite notwithstanding ...


----------



## fatcat

great summary of the pros and cons of bitcoin ... the cons, while real, strike me as well outweighed by the pros, the exception being, losing your wallet, which unlike with cash or a bank account can be a life changing experience, though i think technology, experience and time will adequately deal with these risks

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/re...encies-grow-too-big-toignore/article36764807/

*the pros*
1: No barriers to access: "Developing countries with broken financial sectors are an obvious example and rich with potential. Venezuela and Zimbabwe are recent examples where economic crises have driven rampant adoption of cryptocurrencies by its citizens."

2: No central authority: "The owner has total control of their funds and (theoretically) no one is able to take it away from you or freeze your assets held in the account without consulting you."

3: Peer to peer: "Cuts out the middle-man (bank, lawyer, notary) and transaction fees are much smaller as a result."

4: Fast transactions: "Cuts out third parties (lawyers, banks) and therefore delays compared to traditional asset transfers."

5: Protection: "Cannot be counterfeited or reversed arbitrarily by the sender, as with credit card charge-backs. Likewise, whereas credit cards give the merchant access to a buyer's credit line, cryptocurrency allows the buyer to send to the merchant."

There's more, Ms. Trinh said, including the anonymity factor, and the fact that such currencies can skirt any capital controls. Blockchain technology, she added, "can have wider applications beyond moving money between individuals."

*The drawbacks:*

1: Many of us have experienced that "damn, I lost my wallet" moment. Don't rule out "damn, I lost the password to my wallet" if it's kept on, or lost by, an exchange.

2: Hackers can wreak havoc, for example through a denial of service attack or temporarily bringing down a site to "create panic selling" from which they can make a digital buck. There's also "robbing mining pools," Ms. Trinh said.

3: Because they are "borderless and largely unregulated," central banks can't control cryptocurrencies or manage exchange rates. (And President Donald Trump would have nothing to complain about.)

4: Crime is oft linked to them because of the anonymity that's also seen as a benefit.

5: They could bring instability as "their explosive growth attracts financial speculation." (Sort of like using Dutch tulips. Or detached homes in Vancouver or Toronto.)

6: They gobble up power: "Processing a bitcoin transaction is said to consume between 3,000-5,000 times as much energy as a Visa card transaction." (As opposed to the energy we spend trying to pay off our Visa card transactions.)


----------



## forrory1

fatcat said:


> *The drawbacks:*
> 
> 1: Many of us have experienced that "damn, I lost my wallet" moment. Don't rule out "damn, I lost the password to my wallet" if it's kept on, or lost by, an exchange.
> 
> 2: Hackers can wreak havoc, for example through a denial of service attack or temporarily bringing down a site to "create panic selling" from which they can make a digital buck. There's also "robbing mining pools," Ms. Trinh said.
> 
> 3: Because they are "borderless and largely unregulated," central banks can't control cryptocurrencies or manage exchange rates. (And President Donald Trump would have nothing to complain about.)
> 
> 4: Crime is oft linked to them because of the anonymity that's also seen as a benefit.
> 
> 5: They could bring instability as "their explosive growth attracts financial speculation." (Sort of like using Dutch tulips. Or detached homes in Vancouver or Toronto.)
> 
> 6: They gobble up power: "Processing a bitcoin transaction is said to consume between 3,000-5,000 times as much energy as a Visa card transaction." (As opposed to the energy we spend trying to pay off our Visa card transactions.)



1. If you actually hold all your own money in cash today and it gets "lost" you're in the same boat. This is why people use bank. This is easily solvent with a bank for cryptocurrencies. You actually have many many more ways to fully protect and back up your "Bitcoins" (Trustless solutions) then you do with traditional fiat currency. 

2: Hackers can wreak havoc on VISA, NASDAQ or any bank. Actually the centralize nature of banks and visa make their systems much more susceptible to DOS attacks. Currently you would have to flood close to 10,000 bitcoin nodes to DOS attack the bitcoin network and there are close to 100 000 private/pruned nodes. "There's also "robbing mining pools," Ms. Trinh said." this just makes me laugh and contributes nothing.

3. This is a feature not a "Bug". Moving on.

4. "Crime" favors cash to a much greater degree then bitcoin. Nonsense

5. Tulip mania never happened. Google is your friend.

6: This is getting tiring.

This is mostly FUD. Bitcoin has some hurdles and issues but these are not them. Anyways I came on here to give a quick update. 

Bitcoin new all time high $6450 USD, $8319 CAD.

:smile-new:

R


----------



## nathan79

Not a bad article.



> Sue Trinh, RBC's head of Asia foreign exchange strategy in Hong Kong


I wouldn't expect them to be unbiased, but at least she tried.

However, some of those "negatives" could equally apply to traditional currency, credit cards and banks.

2. Hackers can wreak havoc on credit card companies.

3. Of course a central bank would see that as a negative, but users of Bitcoin generally see it as a positive, and no one wants to see the value of their money drained by inflation.

4. Cash is still more widely used for crime, but no payment system is immune to criminal usage.

5. Indeed true, but the pace of growth and amount of volatility should slow down as adoption reaches critical mass.

6. Fair point, but I wonder if that calculation includes the energy used to build the infrastructure for credit card companies, their headquarters, etc. When you factor in banks, there's a huge energy expenditure in constructing their physical branches, which are also lighted and climate controlled. Then there is the human capital -- employees who consume energy driving to and from work.


----------



## fatcat

forrory1 said:


> 1. If you actually hold all your own money in cash today and it gets "lost" you're in the same boat. This is why people use bank. This is easily solvent with a bank for cryptocurrencies. You actually have many many more ways to fully protect and back up your "Bitcoins" (Trustless solutions) then you do with traditional fiat currency.
> 
> 2: Hackers can wreak havoc on VISA, NASDAQ or any bank. Actually the centralize nature of banks and visa make their systems much more susceptible to DOS attacks. Currently you would have to flood close to 10,000 bitcoin nodes to DOS attack the bitcoin network and there are close to 100 000 private/pruned nodes. "There's also "robbing mining pools," Ms. Trinh said." this just makes me laugh and contributes nothing.
> 
> 3. This is a feature not a "Bug". Moving on.
> 
> 4. "Crime" favors cash to a much greater degree then bitcoin. Nonsense
> 
> 5. Tulip mania never happened. Google is your friend.
> 
> 6: This is getting tiring.
> 
> This is mostly FUD. Bitcoin has some hurdles and issues but these are not them. Anyways I came on here to give a quick update.
> 
> Bitcoin new all time high $6450 USD, $8319 CAD.
> 
> :smile-new:
> 
> R


on 1) depending on how much you hold, i agree, if you are putting your life savings as some have, i would be concerned, there is the famous story of the guy who lost his hard drive with a million dollars worth of coins on it ... but yes, backup, backup and use good passwords, it is certainly doable 

on 2) maybe not so much, hackers can hack but i have yet to see anything like a large scale attack on a world class bank, bitcoin is distributed and as you say, redundant so maybe call this one a draw

on 3) a feature or bug depending on whether you are a central banker or a fan of cryptocurrencies

on 4) also a draw, bitcoin is moving up the ranks quickly as a better option for crime as criminals get more techy, and they are getting more techy thats for sure, cash is too bulky still and crims would love a good option, especially for cross border crime

on 5) who cares

on 6) baloney ... all kinds of useless activities eat up huge amounts, bitcoin is not to blame here


----------



## marina628

I thought I was a genius when i cashed out at $4000 usd lol .I think I am going to let my bitcoin I get from playing online sit for the next while in case it does go to that $10,000 level by year end.I did manage to cash out via coinsquare but it took 8 days.


----------



## sags

A bird in the hand Marina ? Grab the cash before it all collapses ?


----------



## sags

Governments can't shut down bitcoins ?

Ask Paul Manafort and his buddy if the US government cares about them not declaring money............LOL


----------



## Johnred

No, a gov cannot shut down BTC. Exchanges yes. Gains are taxed as capital gains.


Also, this is some good news. Just announced today.

Bitcoin is spiking to a record after CME Group Inc.(NASDAQ:CME) said it’s planning to launch Bitcoin futures as the move could open the way for investors who have been standing on the sidelines as Bitcoin soared over 500% YTD.

The cryptocurrency marked a high at 6,416.39 after the CME said it will start offering trading the derivatives in the fourth quarter.

Futures will be settled in cash based on a Bitcoin index that CME started calculating in November.

The move comes after the Chicago Board Options Exchange (NASDAQ:CBOE) said in August it’s exploring Bitcoin derivatives opportunities, while the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) in July registered cryptocurrency trading platform LedgerX as the first federally regulated cryptocurrency derivatives exchange and clearinghouse.


----------



## tavogl

marina628 said:


> I thought I was a genius when i cashed out at $4000 usd lol .I think I am going to let my bitcoin I get from playing online sit for the next while in case it does go to that $10,000 level by year end.I did manage to cash out via coinsquare but it took 8 days.


Can you link your coinsquare accout to you bank account? how much do they charge for withdrawing?


----------



## sags

The guy that stole customer bitcoins has gained $700 million from the price increase.

https://www.mtgoxlegal.com/2017/10/27/press-release/


----------



## forrory1

fatcat said:


> on 1) depending on how much you hold, i agree, if you are putting your life savings as some have, i would be concerned, there is the famous story of the guy who lost his hard drive with a million dollars worth of coins on it ... but yes, backup, backup and use good passwords, it is certainly doable


Context there is that he mined those coins for basically nothing and when he tossed the computer in the garbage they were still worth nothing. Fast forward years later to today and that hardrive is worth about 64 million CAD.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/27/hard-drive-bitcoin-landfill-site

R


----------



## forrory1

sags said:


> The guy that stole customer bitcoins has gained $700 million from the price increase.
> 
> https://www.mtgoxlegal.com/2017/10/27/press-release/


"As is traditional with assets in a Japanese bankruptcy, customers had their bitcoin claims valued in yen, at the market rate of the day the exchange closed. On February 24th, 2014, one bitcoin was worth 50,058JPY (~$480)

Since then, the value of bitcoin has increased more than 12 fold, and Mt Gox is technically no longer insolvent.


"customers will get back just 8% of the current value of their bitcoins. Mr Kobayashi announced that in this unprecedented case, in which the bankrupt company has become technically solvent, the law states that the surplus funds, which could be over $700m, should be returned to the shareholders. The largest shareholder, Tibanne Co. Ltd, is a company wholly owned by Mr Karpeles who ran Mt Gox, and failed to prevent numerous thefts"

Sounds like the fiat system screwed some people here.

"The unprecedented rise in bitcoin’s value this year has highlighted the inflexibility of the arcane Japanese bankruptcy statutes, which sit uncomfortably with its progressive legislation on cryptocurrencies such as bitcoin. In March the Japanese government passed laws to recognise bitcoin as a legal method of payment."

R

Ps, New all time high = $6635 USD, $8555 CAD


----------



## forrory1

sags said:


> Governments can't shut down bitcoins ?
> 
> Ask Paul Manafort and his buddy if the US government cares about them not declaring money............LOL


"Paul Manafort has been accused of illegally hiding payola from Vladimir Putin’s former puppet regime in Ukraine. He’s charged with evading taxes, failing to disclose that he was working as the agent of a foreign power and hiding overseas bank accounts. His associate Richard Gates has also been charged.

So far these are only allegations.

The only reason special counsel Robert Mueller was able to file the indictment was because he was able to follow a money trail through the international banking system that allegedly connects Ukraine to Manafort.

But in the future, anyone who wants secrecy can just avoid the banks, with their pesky records and regulations, altogether. Instead they can use digital currencies to transfer wealth wherever they want, no questions asked.

Bitcoin’s digital ledger..."


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/p...g-himself-why-he-didnt-use-bitcoin-2017-10-31

R


----------



## sags

I think people misunderstand. The government doesn't "want" disclosure of financial dealings..............it "demands" it.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

From the bizzare world of bitcoin, the unnecessary currency:

_*One Bitcoin Transaction Now Uses as Much Energy as Your House in a Week*_
_Blockchain is inefficient tech by design, as we create trust by building a system based on distrust...
At a minimum, worldwide Bitcoin mining could power the daily needs of 821,940 average American homes. Put another way, global Bitcoin mining represents a minimum of 77KWh of energy consumed per Bitcoin transaction...

In the context of climate change, raging wildfires, and record-breaking hurricanes, it's worth asking ourselves hard questions about Bitcoin's environmental footprint, and what we want to use it for. Do most transactions actually need to bypass trusted third parties like banks and credit card companies, which can operate much more efficiently than Bitcoin's decentralized network? Imperfect as these financial institutions are, for most of us, the answer is very likely no._

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ywbbpm/bitcoin-mining-electricity-consumption-ethereum-energy-climate-change


----------



## tavogl

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> From the bizzare world of bitcoin, the unnecessary currency:
> 
> _*One Bitcoin Transaction Now Uses as Much Energy as Your House in a Week*_
> _Blockchain is inefficient tech by design, as we create trust by building a system based on distrust...
> At a minimum, worldwide Bitcoin mining could power the daily needs of 821,940 average American homes. Put another way, global Bitcoin mining represents a minimum of 77KWh of energy consumed per Bitcoin transaction...
> 
> In the context of climate change, raging wildfires, and record-breaking hurricanes, it's worth asking ourselves hard questions about Bitcoin's environmental footprint, and what we want to use it for. Do most transactions actually need to bypass trusted third parties like banks and credit card companies, which can operate much more efficiently than Bitcoin's decentralized network? Imperfect as these financial institutions are, for most of us, the answer is very likely no._
> 
> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ywbbpm/bitcoin-mining-electricity-consumption-ethereum-energy-climate-change


and still, its up to $ cad 8800


----------



## fatcat

you have to crush about 20 tons of ore to get an ounce of gold worth 1300 USD ... bitcoin will get harder and harder to mine as the number in circulation approaches 21 million

exactly as gold will become more expensive and harder to mine as we get closer to pulling all available gold out of the ground


----------



## nathan79

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> From the bizzare world of bitcoin, the unnecessary currency:
> 
> _*One Bitcoin Transaction Now Uses as Much Energy as Your House in a Week*_
> _Blockchain is inefficient tech by design, as we create trust by building a system based on distrust...
> At a minimum, worldwide Bitcoin mining could power the daily needs of 821,940 average American homes. Put another way, global Bitcoin mining represents a minimum of 77KWh of energy consumed per Bitcoin transaction...
> 
> In the context of climate change, raging wildfires, and record-breaking hurricanes, it's worth asking ourselves hard questions about Bitcoin's environmental footprint, and what we want to use it for. Do most transactions actually need to bypass trusted third parties like banks and credit card companies, which can operate much more efficiently than Bitcoin's decentralized network? Imperfect as these financial institutions are, for most of us, the answer is very likely no._
> 
> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ywbbpm/bitcoin-mining-electricity-consumption-ethereum-energy-climate-change


It wouldn't matter if there were fewer transactions made, because the amount of energy consumed by mining is unrelated to the number of transactions. In fact, the network is more efficient on a per-transaction basis when every block is completely full of transactions.

In other words, your decision to use or not use Bitcoin has minimal impact on the energy consumption of the network. It's only if you choose to mine that you're consuming excessive energy.

Scaling solutions like SegWit and the Lightning Network https://lightning.network/ will eventually allow for a virtually unlimited number of transactions, with no additional mining required.


----------



## fatcat

forrory1 said:


> Context there is that he mined those coins for basically nothing and when he tossed the computer in the garbage they were still worth nothing. Fast forward years later to today and that hardrive is worth about 64 million CAD.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/27/hard-drive-bitcoin-landfill-site
> 
> R


yeah, to me,the real story there is not the lost hard drive but that he mined the coins ... on his freaking laptop ... 7500 coins !!!


----------



## sags

The world already moves trillions of dollars digitally. There is no need for bitcoins to move money.

Moving money electronically isn't always perfect, as currently demonstrated by TD bank email transfer problems.

Moving money by email isn't always perfect either, as currently demonstrated by Rogers Yahoo email problems.

Cash is still king.


----------



## forrory1

sags said:


> Cash is still king.




I heard landlines worked great. My smart phone is pretty awesome though.

R


----------



## Danny

Anyone here have an account or any experience with Coinbase. (where you can buy and sell crypto)


----------



## sags

There are lots of people on bitcoin forums complaining they lost their money on the sketchy bitcoin exchanges. 

Unregulated, fake markets, crooks and criminals, innocent newbies ready for fleecing..............what could go wrong ?


----------



## sags

The only thing the bitcoin enthusiasts talk about on their forums is how much bitcoins are worth, how much they will be worth some day and how to secure them.

There is virtually no discussion on any real world use of bitcoins. That would probably be because there isn't any real world use.

It is a pretty good sign of a speculation bubble when all people talk about is the rising price.

I have read some stories about people taking out mortgages, credits line and maxing out credit cards to buy bitcoins.

This scam isn't going to end well for some people.


----------



## new dog

I agree sags, it is all about rising prices. Of course they can go on rising for awhile or they could start heading to zero.


----------



## nathan79

Good video on CBC website this evening. http://www.cbc.ca/news/bitcoin-s-wild-ride-1.4385112


----------



## fatcat

sags said:


> The only thing the bitcoin enthusiasts talk about on their forums is how much bitcoins are worth, how much they will be worth some day and how to secure them.
> 
> There is virtually no discussion on any real world use of bitcoins. That would probably be because there isn't any real world use.
> 
> It is a pretty good sign of a speculation bubble when all people talk about is the rising price.
> 
> I have read some stories about people taking out mortgages, credits line and maxing out credit cards to buy bitcoins.
> 
> This scam isn't going to end well for some people.


you seem to be the self appointed president of the i-hate-bitcoin club ... so, let me get some clarification, when you use the term “bitcoin”, are you talking about the actual crypto currency “bitcoin” or the blockchain or crypto currencies in general, because they are 3 separate and distinct things ... what are you referring to when you use the term ”bitcoin” ?


----------



## marina628

tavogl said:


> Can you link your coinsquare accout to you bank account? how much do they charge for withdrawing?


It cost me $4.00 to withdraw $400 Canadian to my TD bank account and the process took 8 days .I have used Coinbase to purchase using credit cards without issue but you cannot cash out with a canadian bank account .I use bittrex ,coinbase and blockchain on a regular basis and have a Trezor wallet.


----------



## Danny

Marina 628, i am going to send you a private message regarding a question on coinbase.Hope thats ok with you.


----------



## sags

Bitcoin and the blockchain are different but depend on each other. Without the reward of bitcoins, miners wouldn't spend the time or money to verify transactions.


----------



## james4beach

I think the interest in speculation and momentum riding far exceeds any real interest in using this as a global payment method. Why would anyone pay (spend) their bitcoin if the price is going to double in a few months? You'd have to be stupid to spend bitcoins on any goods or services.

Bitcoins are clearly on a strong momentum run here. Lots of people experiencing 'fear of missing out' and piling in. Look at these moves
+60% in one month
+630% year to date
+884% in one year


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Remind me again what assets or income are behind that growth, that I should have invested my money in?


----------



## new dog

It is supposed to be a currency I think, but I can't see it being that because it really isn't accepted by any major government as payment for taxes or services. It is also far to volatile to be used as a currency.


----------



## nathan79

james4beach said:


> I think the interest in speculation and momentum riding far exceeds any real interest in using this as a global payment method. Why would anyone pay (spend) their bitcoin if the price is going to double in a few months? You'd have to be stupid to spend bitcoins on any goods or services.
> 
> Bitcoins are clearly on a strong momentum run here. Lots of people experiencing 'fear of missing out' and piling in. Look at these moves
> +60% in one month
> +630% year to date
> +884% in one year


There have been two major corrections so far this year. One in June and another in September. After each correction, the price rallied to increase about $2000 above the previous all-time high. We're currently more than $2000 above the previous high, so odds are in favour of another correction soon.


----------



## james4beach

I really see this the same was as any other small cap, or even an obscure commodity. Bitcoin isn't rallying like this because of some fundamental thing, and no matter what thing rallies, there's always a "story" behind it. Bitcoin isn't the first thing with a story about being revolutionary, ground breaking, transformational, or changing the way we think about everything.

The only real story here is that bitcoin is a thing that is in a strong uptrend. People have made fortunes riding the wave of a small cap stock, or commodity as well. Go long soybeans during a soybean bull market and you can make lots of money! I knew a guy who made some money on sugar futures.

I have no position in bitcoin because I don't make a habit of riding speculative uptrends. Some people do, though, with successful results. But you have to apply technical analysis to know how to get in & out.

I think it's fine to speculate, as long as you don't buy the BS story that it's some transformational thing and is rising because it's changing the world. Just recognize it's driven by speculative inflows and people chasing the price. The same is true for many stocks.


----------



## lonewolf :)

Apparently out of all the bubbles that modern man has ever been able to track in terms of percentage gain Bit coin holds number 1 spot. The only good thing about the rally in bitcoin for the longs is they can trade Bitcoins for dollars. 

If Bitcoin becomes a major form of money Bitcoin was not really a bubble. Though if does not become major currency it means bubble spirits are @ most extreme ever which would indicate a very large fractal in the markets when it turns will be very negative in the opposite direction then the speculative up.


----------



## fatcat

sags said:


> Bitcoin and the blockchain are different but depend on each other. Without the reward of bitcoins, miners wouldn't spend the time or money to verify transactions.


no, they do not depend on each other at all, bitcoin depends on the blockchain but the blockchain as a linked and open ledger does not in any way need bitcoin ... chickens don't need eggs but eggs need chickens ... the blockchain is the chicken and bitcoin is the egg

you have spent countless hours posting what really amounts to fear, uncertainty and doubt without ever giving the impression that you actually know the difference between bitcoin, the blockchain which is what bitcoin is derived from / based on and the other cryptocurrencies so let me ask you what is your beef really with, bitcoin the cryptocurrency, cryptocurrencies in general or the open ledger called "blockchain" ... all are very different

bitcoin gives every impression of perhaps being a bubble just based in the charts and the mania that often surrounds really interesting and "hot" technology ... 

other cryptocurrencies come and go (there are over a 1000) but the concept of cryptocurrencies and a whole host of other things like media and art that will use the blockchain as ledger to facilitate easy, fast and secure exchanges of assets is certainly here to stay

take some time to understand the differences before you post so goddamn much uninformed f.u.d


----------



## james4beach

On a technical basis, some of the other cryptocurrencies like Monero are far more interesting. Unlike the others, Monero guarantees privacy. This is incredibly novel and presents many advantages.

Bitcoin just has the advantage of being first to the party. In many ways it's not particularly impressive. Transactions have become quite slow, and you actually have to wait up to several hours to be certain that a transaction has "cleared" and that a payment is legitimate.


----------



## fatcat

james4beach said:


> On a technical basis, some of the other cryptocurrencies like Monero are far more interesting. Unlike the others, Monero guarantees privacy. This is incredibly novel and presents many advantages.
> 
> Bitcoin just has the advantage of being first to the party. In many ways it's not particularly impressive. Transactions have become quite slow, and you actually have to wait up to several hours to be certain that a transaction has "cleared" and that a payment is legitimate.


indeed, it only has the advantage of name recognition and pride of place ... it is the kleenex of tissue papers ... exactly as you say, it isn’t completely private, it is possible to suss out the origin of transactions ... as the technology matures i can see bitcoin being passed by a technology with better privacy, speed and so on ...


----------



## nathan79

Bitcoin is constantly being improved. It's possible to add many of the features of the other cryptos. There are also services like Bitmixer that can make transactions more private, for those who need it. 

I think the biggest threat to Bitcoin right now is the potential scaling difficulties. If the Lightning Network implementation is delayed for long or has technical flaws, we could be stuck with increasingly slower and more expensive transactions.


----------



## nathan79

james4beach said:


> Transactions have become quite slow, and you actually have to wait up to several hours to be certain that a transaction has "cleared" and that a payment is legitimate.


Yes, and no. Provided you pay the correct fee, your transaction should be included in the next block (average 10 minutes). You really only need three confirmations to be virtually certain that a transaction is good. For small transactions, one confirmation is sufficient. For large sums you might want to wait for six confirmations, even though the chance of anything going wrong after four or five confirmations is vanishingly small.


----------



## sags

People miss the fact that the bitcoin blockchain is a decentralized ledger. Random individual miners are paid bitcoins to maintain the blockchain on their computers.

Yes, a blockchain could be used for any data storage, but who would maintain the blockchain and verify transactions ? 

If you pay specific people to do that........you are no longer decentralized, and the blockchain would be nothing more than a data list.


----------



## sags

Without multiple random verification people would put companies out of business. The "double spend" rate is low now because people don't think they will get away with it.

Are people dishonest ? Do they download movies and music from torrent sites ? What do they save on a song.........$1 ?

It doesn't look like there is a consensus for the bitcoin fork decision. In a decentralized system solution stalemates are a big problem.


----------



## kenshin

james4beach said:


> I think the interest in speculation and momentum riding far exceeds any real interest in using this as a global payment method. Why would anyone pay (spend) their bitcoin if the price is going to double in a few months? You'd have to be stupid to spend bitcoins on any goods or services.
> 
> Bitcoins are clearly on a strong momentum run here. Lots of people experiencing 'fear of missing out' and piling in. Look at these moves
> +60% in one month
> +630% year to date
> +884% in one year


that is exactly what creates a bubble, i never buy any stock ( bitcoin isn't exactly a stock but you know what i mean) based on the fear of missing out, if i missed the boat so be it, their thousands of others. Just want to make sure the ones i do buy are near certain.


----------



## sags

If I am wrong on bitcoin and it continues as a great success, a few people would hold vast amounts of anonymous wealth.

The government would not be able to tax or follow the path of this great amount of wealth.

Satoshi is reported to have mined 1.2 million bitcoins. He would be the world's first Trillionaire and none of it is traceable to him.

(possible tax avoidance, terrorist funding, criminal activity) .....like that is going to be allowed by governments.

If it is okay with the US government........why did they arrest and charge Paul Mannafort for not reporting his money ?


----------



## new dog

Mark Cuban figures FANG stocks will crush Bitcoin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Evz7kfNC1i8


----------



## kenshin

his largest holding is amazon?... ya i don't see to much upside in amazon vs the potential downside. Especially if the market takes a dump, a pe of 270 will hurt them quite alot


----------



## sags

james4beach said:


> I think the interest in speculation and momentum riding far exceeds any real interest in using this as a global payment method. Why would anyone pay (spend) their bitcoin if the price is going to double in a few months? You'd have to be stupid to spend bitcoins on any goods or services.
> 
> Bitcoins are clearly on a strong momentum run here. Lots of people experiencing 'fear of missing out' and piling in. Look at these moves
> +60% in one month
> +630% year to date
> +884% in one year


How many people do you reckon are paying taxes on those gains ?


----------



## fatcat

sags, that human beings cheat, lie and steal has ... nothing ... to do with the potential of the the blockchain to cut out the middleman in the transfer of assets ... nothing ... forget bitcoin, put it out if your mind and read about the potential of the bitcoin to disrupt, and i mean seriously upend and reconfigure all kinds of domains within which human beings buy and sell things


----------



## sags

Some companies are looking at the "technology" but none have said they are the least interested in the actual block chain.

There is a question of security. Would Amazon want to use a public blockchain for data storage and allow their competitors to know all about their business ?

I doubt it, but these are the kinds of "real world" questions that bitcoin supporters don't seem to want to answer.

"Somebody will figure it out later."...........isn't good enough.


----------



## fatcat

sags said:


> *Some companies are looking at the "technology" but none have said they are the least interested in the actual block chain.*
> 
> There is a question of security. Would Amazon want to use a public blockchain for data storage and allow their competitors to know all about their business ?
> 
> I doubt it, but these are the kinds of "real world" questions that bitcoin supporters don't seem to want to answer.
> 
> "Somebody will figure it out later."...........isn't good enough.


where do you get this stuff ? ... "not the least interested in the blockchain" ? ... seriously

provenance https://www.provenance.org is using the blockchain to establish the authenticity of top brands products

ujo https://ujomusic.com is using the blockchain to help artists and musicians sell their work

ipfs https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/...y-file-system-wants-to-create-a-permanent-web is using the blockchain to create greater redundancy and decentralization to effectively make the internet more immune to censorship and to prevent what effectively is the disappearance of knowledge

colony https://colony.io is using the blockchain to help startups manage large projects efficiently

slockit https://slock.it is using the blockchain to help people rent, sell or share things without needing a middleman

plex.ai https://angel.co/plex-ai is using the blockchain to help insurance companies better assess risk management

i could go on all day, these above are a fraction of people interested in the blockchain which is inspiring all kinds of ideas and innovation ... most of which will fail but some won't and those are the ones you want to find

you really ought to take the time to know more about this subject before posting such uninformed and clueless comments


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> How many people do you reckon are paying taxes on those gains ?


Very few, but the feds have started going after them.


----------



## sags

LOL......startup web companies that don't have enough capital to buy a decent .com domain name.

These companies live on venture capital and municipal handouts. We have several of them in our city. 

When the free money and rent runs out........they have to find real jobs.


----------



## sags

IBM is advertising it's "cloud blockchain". Does it have anything to do with bitcoins, miners or the bitcoin blockchain ? I doubt it.


----------



## lonewolf :)

james4beach said:


> Very few, but the feds have started going after them.


 If there was trust in government Bitcoin might not have survived. In US 20% of population pays 95% of the taxes, Based on 2010 number the bottom 40% pay NEGATIVE 9%. The government & the unproductive want the rich to keep paying more. Once you make 20,000 annual in the US it does not make any sense to keep working taxes & medical insurance makes it unproductive. Better off to find a low cost area to live & be frugal.

Bitcoin & floating cities will help keep the government & unproductive from leaching off the productive.


----------



## johnwing1

*Why is bitcoin going 3% up each day?*

Why is bitcoin going 3% up each day?


----------



## sags

Some people would rather hold bitcoin than US dollars...............for speculative reasons, I presume.

There is also the psychology of gambling involved. Why do people gamble every day when they know the odds are stacked against them ?

They believe that "this time.........this pull of the slot machine, this deal of the deck, this purchase of bitcoins" is their time to get rich.


----------



## 30seconds

There is another fork coming up called Segwit2x. It is happening on November 16th. Based on the other forks (bitcoin gold and bitcoin cash) people see it as getting free money. You are now seeing everyone running towards bitcoin which then gets on the news, which casues the price to go up, which makes more people interested... and they cycle continues. 

IMO ETH (ethereum) is the way to go. ETH is usable where Bitcoin is now "a store of value" since the transaction time is to slow. Bitcoin cash also has some good potential imo.


----------



## james4beach

30seconds said:


> IMO ETH (ethereum) is the way to go. ETH is usable where Bitcoin is now "a store of value" since the transaction time is to slow. Bitcoin cash also has some good potential imo.


ethereum's popularity is vastly overstated. About 70% of the ethereum activity out in the world is done by mixers and money laundering operations, according to research we do at my firm.

That makes it doubtful that there's much legitimate use of ethereum. Also, once law enforcement cracks down on the money launderers, the price might crash as all that volume disappears.

I'm not saying that ethereum doesn't have a future, though, but this is the current situation.


----------



## verticalguy

The 1xxx% return question is, if bitcoin is a bubble or if there's a real use case, besides crime, which is not sustainable long-term as law enforcement smartens up. At the moment most people buy to "hodl", which is also not sustainable. The one field I believe bitcoin could be adopted soon is the adult industry. Bitcoin solves the most important issues for customers, like anonymity. Some sites are making baby steps towards adoption and are testing the waters. I assume that if the erotica industry adopts it, bitcoin are here to stay.


----------



## cablex

From https://www.coingecko.com/en we can see how all the coins stack up
ETH has lost steam because its price went up too much due to hype early this year alongside with the ICO wave and boom.
However as BTC moves from 1000 to 7000, I also tend to think that Ethereum has a higher potential.
The Bitcoin hard fork is coming, and i think its going to be a key event that will affect the market price of all coins, expect red. thats my view


----------



## forrory1

Update, 2x camp has called off their fork since they do not have consensus. 

Bitcoin seems to be working. No one is in control. Anyone can propose change but without consensus no change will happen. Bitcoin emerges stronger from this onto face the next challenge. 

Price jumped on this news yesterday then settled down. New all time high $10110 CAD per Bitcoin.

R


----------



## sags

Less than 100 bitcoins for $1,000,000 Canadian............:triumphant:


----------



## fatcat

i like that they said they were defaulting to community consensus in their decision ... thats smart


----------



## tyhatts

Whats a decent amount of Bitcoin to purchase per week ?


----------



## sags

Higher transaction fees and longer wait times are the future for bitcoin without a hard fork.

It will never be accepted by the mainstream if it takes hours to verify a transaction unless an outrageous fee is paid.


----------



## sags

A real life comparison :

*Western Union*

_I just had to western union €92 to turkey, paid £5 fees, it took half an hour, and it won't arrive until tomorrow. 
_
*Bitcoin*

_Imagine he's sending 92 euros in half an hour. As of right now that'd be a fee somewhere around 10 euros to have a good chance of getting it included in a block in that timeframe. The person on the other end then needs to send it to an exchange or some other method to cash it out, so that's another 10 euro transfer fee, another half-hour wait (plus six confirms), then another fee for the trade, and possibly another fee for the withdrawal.

Forget £5, I'd be surprised if you'd get any change out of £25._


----------



## new dog

None of it makes any sense to me as far as price goes. Bitcoin should be a place to store money and move it to complete transactions from what I understand. Instead it looks more like a very hot stock without the value of the companies product or service underneath it. It has lost its purpose as a transfer of money to pay for product or services

A bitcoin should be 1 dollar for each coin as an example. It should only go up to match the devaluing of a dollar per as seen in inflation or future inflation. Some have said this is what we are actually seeing with Bitcoin.


----------



## fatcat

new dog said:


> None of it makes any sense to me as far as price goes. Bitcoin should be a place to store money and move it to complete transactions from what I understand. Instead it looks more like a very hot stock without the value of the companies product or service underneath it. It has lost its purpose as a transfer of money to pay for product or services
> 
> A bitcoin should be 1 dollar for each coin as an example. It should only go up to match the devaluing of a dollar per as seen in inflation or future inflation. Some have said this is what we are actually seeing with Bitcoin.


right dog, bitcoin is a mania at present, ripe for a fall i think ... no cryptocurrency will gain wide usage until it has price movements in line with major fiat cirrencies which is to say relatively slow and predictable

it is supposed to be a currency, a way to move money and to store money like a chequing account, it could be considered another asset class but as a speculative investment it is right up there with penny stocks, high risk

often the very first entry in a brand new field fails and its the second or third try that gets it right, i would not be surprised to see bitcoin tank bigtime ... though name recognition is a huge advantage


----------



## new dog

Aren't the risks greater for merchants. If a merchant accepts Bitcoin he is risking volatility for just holding it over a short period of time. Also wouldn't it mess up his or her books and also trying to make it whole with the tax system and regulations.


----------



## james4beach

There's lots of talk at work about getting in on the bitcoin craze. People saying they want to put a few hundred $ into it, clearly many people with "fear of missing out".


----------



## fatcat

its a house of cards at this points ... sheer crazy speculation

i am listening to an audiobook version of “american kingpin” by nick bilton about the silk road which was the online drug website started by ross ulbricht 

entirely and completely made possible only by bitcoin, without bitcoin it would have never happened

a highly recommended and gripping story


----------



## james4beach

Monero is actually far superior as far as illicit money transactions. Those truly can't be traced.

In any case, this is actually a pretty exciting thing to live through. History has had a few major bubbles, they don't really come too often (huge % gains and huge amounts of money).

Tulip Mania 1600s
South Sea Bubble 1700s
Japanese real estate 1980s
Tech bubble 1990s

And now bitcoin & friends, though it's not quite yet at those previous levels (and not sure it will ever reach them). But still, over $200 billion invested in just the last couple of years! Imagine if this bubble grows into the trillions $.


----------



## lonewolf :)

Bitcoin is saving lives in Venezuela written recently by Cassy Research

Venezuela Inflation rate is estimated to hit 2,800% next year, the economy is in shambles people are using Bitcoin to buy food & medicine for survival.

Zimbabwe abandon their currency as it became worthless hitting 79.1 billion in Nov 2008 so they abandoned the currency & started using the US dollar & African Rand. Has not fixed the countries problem unemployment is @ 90% there is not a lot of US currency to function. According to Bloomberg 1 bitcoin in Zimbabwe will set you back $13,000 US almost double that of the international market.

Above info from Cassy research, below my thinking

The strong out performance in one location could be a sign of a top i.e., broad based rallies are sign of strength. I think deflation first then if inflation leads to hyper inflation Bitcoin might be worth having. Though Bitcoin could be a mother of scams to steal money by the powers that be.

The stock market is putting in a mother of a top that should correct down to 1000 in DJI speculation needs to be sky high to put in this size of a top which can be seen in Bitcoin speculation. Though if we get hyper inflation Bitcoin or similar might be used though would not trust Bitcoin being hacked.


----------



## james4beach

lonewolf :) said:


> Bitcoin is saving lives in Venezuela written recently by Cassy Research


But so are USD, EUR, CHF, CAD, AUD, JPY, gold...

Nothing unique about bitcoin there. Any of the above are a more stable store of wealth than the Venezuelan bolívar. The above are also more stable than bitcoin as a store of wealth.


----------



## lonewolf :)

Bitcoin can be broken down further which would allow for more transactions is probably why they are doing it. I know I would rather have a bag of silver dimes then nickles & quarters as would have more transactions. As the old US & Canadian dimes were smaller


----------



## sags

james4beach said:


> Monero is actually far superior as far as illicit money transactions. Those truly can't be traced.
> 
> In any case, this is actually a pretty exciting thing to live through. History has had a few major bubbles, they don't really come too often (huge % gains and huge amounts of money).
> 
> Tulip Mania 1600s
> South Sea Bubble 1700s
> Japanese real estate 1980s
> Tech bubble 1990s
> 
> And now bitcoin & friends, though it's not quite yet at those previous levels (and not sure it will ever reach them). But still, over $200 billion invested in just the last couple of years! Imagine if this bubble grows into the trillions $.


The market cap is nowhere near the actual "real" dollars invested into bitcoin. Millions of them were mined for a penny or two.

The "price" is what someone pays for a tiny fraction of a bitcoin....ie 1/10,000th of a bitcoin for $1 makes a whole bitcoin worth $10,000 times that much ?

It has been well documented that the volume on the exchanges couldn't possibly be real and are manipulated. Many of the "sales" are fake churning.

Criminals can do whatever they want in an unregulated industry.........lol.


----------



## nathan79

It's the same if you invest $1 in a stock and the price goes to $20. You still only invested one dollar, but the market cap is 20 times higher.

On fake sales... I don't doubt there are some shady exchanges, but I would need to see evidence that this happens on a scale large enough to matter.

But if you right, and there isn't much money in Bitcoin, then I wonder what happens if the "real" money pours in.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Not sure why 'real' money would ever pour in. Its not like its an investment.


----------



## james4beach

How is it any less of an investment than a tech stock or some arbitrary small cap stock? The total market capitalization of bitcoin is $136 billion with nearly $4 billion in daily volume. That's already far bigger and far more liquid than most stocks.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Stocks buy you a piece of the company, for better or worse. What do you own with bitcoin - a currency, one backstopped by who or what?


----------



## sags

On the stock market, you buy 1 full share in a company for a price, usually in lots of 100 or more.

Bitcoin prices are set for full coins, half coins, quarter coins............right down to tiny bits of 1 coin.

Imagine what Apple stock might be "worth" if people could buy 0.00099 of 1 share like Bitcoins.

If you watch the ticker you will see prices posted with 0.000 as the volume.

http://bitcointicker.co/


----------



## sags

Maybe I am wrong and bitcoins were the best solution to not working ever invented.

Let the computer "mine" bitcoins for nothing and sell them for tens of thousands. Millionaires, billlionaires and Satoshi......the world's first trillionaire.

Who would have thunk it ?


----------



## nathan79

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Stocks buy you a piece of the company, for better or worse. What do you own with bitcoin - a currency, one backstopped by who or what?


Here's a good video on the topic of what gives money value and how it relates to Bitcoin (long video, I linked to the most relevant part): https://youtu.be/ONvg9SbauMg?t=1589


----------



## fatcat

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Not sure why 'real' money would ever pour in. Its not like its an investment.


it is arguably currency speculation ... george soros famously made a billion dollars betting against the british pound ... 

though there are no metrics, no central bank, no inflation, no worker productivity, no interest rates etc, nothing to measure the value of the "currency" bitcoin against, so it really is pure speculation


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

nathan79 said:


> Here's a good video on the topic of what gives money value and how it relates to Bitcoin (long video, I linked to the most relevant part): https://youtu.be/ONvg9SbauMg?t=1589


This guy didn't drink the cool aide, he made it and handed it out. None of his spiel changes the fact that bc has no inherent value when we are comparing it to the ownership of shares in a company.


----------



## nathan79

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> This guy didn't drink the cool aide, he made it and handed it out. None of his spiel changes the fact that bc has no inherent value when we are comparing it to the ownership of shares in a company.


LOL... you were comparing it to currency a minute ago. Keep changing the topic. Many companies don't have value, either.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

nathan79 said:


> LOL... you were comparing it to currency a minute ago. Keep changing the topic. Many companies don't have value, either.


I still am, its a currency with no inherent value. 
Many? companies don't have value? Perhaps the ones you invest in. Something to work on there.


----------



## nathan79

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> I still am, its a currency with no inherent value.
> Many? companies don't have value? Perhaps the ones you invest in. Something to work on there.


Oh, a personal attack. Why you don't you just admit you have no clue how Bitcoin works, or what a gives a currency value?


----------



## forrory1

We seem to be stuck 2 years in the past here still talking about ponzi schemes/foil hats and the like while governments and banks have changed their tune and adoption is on its way. Crypto currencies are a reality.

Part of the problem is people keep trying to fit Bitcoin into an existing box. When it doesn't fit it is deemed poor @ being X or Y. The world has never had a decentralized form of programmable value exchange. Our existing asset classes and valuation metrics don't apply here. We need new models and new thinking. This whole idea of trying to value Bitcoin as a company is obviously wrong (market cap :stupid. 

What metrics factor/capture network style growth pattern?

How can we gauge value of something that acts like a commodity yet whose utility is constantly morphing and isn't correlated with known markets? Is it the cost of electricity or is it a function of moore's law and the block reward?

How can we determine where on the growth pattern we are? What growth pattern are we likely to follow (S-pattern)?

What place does Bitcoin have in a Canadians investment portfolio?

Canadian tax implications?

Is Bitcoin the token most likely to succeed/best for Canadians?

I have yet to find this conversation online yet I have no doubts it is the conversation being had behind closed doors.

R

Ps. New all time high Nov 21, $8375 USD or $10621 CAD


----------



## off.by.10

forrory1 said:


> We seem to be stuck 2 years in the past here still talking about ponzi schemes/foil hats and the like while governments and banks have changed their tune and adoption is on its way. Crypto currencies are a reality.


Perhaps they are, perhaps they're not. But either way, why Bitcoin specifically? What's to stop governments and banks from simply backing a different crypto currency in the future? People seem to confuse all the various concepts too easily. Just because cryptocurrency might (or not) be the future and blockchains are finding lots of uses does not mean Bitcoin will still be significant 20 years from now. There is nothing backing it which could not be backing something else on short notice. It is, in fact, already happening with the forks being done.

It's like equating "electric cars" and Tesla. Most people agree electric cars are the future. That does not mean Tesla won't be bankrupt 20 years from now if the competition picks up their pace.


----------



## sags

True.....first is not always enduring, especially in the tech world. Remember MySpace, Netscape, Tandy computers, Atari..........?


----------



## cablex

$8000 is the new support level https://www.coingecko.com/en/price_charts/bitcoin/usd unbelievable and shocking 

Since price discovery and fundamental is what we are discussing
I shall be leaving this here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-Vjgx75GXQ


----------



## Eclectic12

forrory1 said:


> ... Part of the problem is people keep trying to fit Bitcoin into an existing box ...
> We need new models and new thinking ...
> 
> What place does Bitcoin have in a Canadians investment portfolio?


Those that love it have a fair amount, those that aren't sure have little to none.




forrory1 said:


> ... Canadian tax implications?


It's taxable where depending on hobby or business, it is taxed as a capital gain or income (similar to day trading stocks).

The part that is clear for Americans is mining them is income. CRA has been wishy washy as the article found for this thread in the taxation section say that the mining part is only partially defined.
http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/125050-Bitcoin-and-taxes


Cheers


----------



## sags

When the time suits them...........the real financial powers will pull the plug on bitcoins and down the drain it will go.


----------



## forrory1

sags said:


> When the time suits them...........the real financial powers will pull the plug on bitcoins and down the drain it will go.


Interesting, who are these financial powers exactly? And how might they pull this plug? Why haven't they?

Looks to me like they are trying to play catch up now that they've realized the path we're on.

R


----------



## forrory1

sags said:


> True.....first is not always enduring, especially in the tech world. Remember MySpace, Netscape, Tandy computers, Atari..........?


While this is true it is also interesting to note that these were all "closed source" projects. What significance will open source have in this case. 

Could new tech developed on a competing coin be easily be incorporated? Could they even ignore copyright laws? Worked for BitTorrent. 

R


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

*Be careful out there kids. You are having currency sex with no protection.*

November 3, 2017. Bitcoin scams 'getting more sophisticated' as value of cryptocurrency tops $9,200
November 3, 2017. Australian Trader Loses AU$1,600 to Hackers in a Bitcoin Scam
November 14, 2017. Market manipulation 101': 'Wolf of Wall Street'-style 'pump and dump' scams plague cryptocurrency markets
November 20, 2017. Initial Coin Offering-Backed Startup Confido Goes Dark After Getting $374,000 From Investors
November 22, 2017. South Korean Police Bust $38 Million Bitcoin Ponzi Scam


----------



## marina628

I know people who have $500,000 -$600,000 usd in bitcoin and never used any bank or credit card to get them ,totally anonymous.This is one reason why it is going to be difficult to 'pull the plug' or tax , my own accountant looked at me like I have two heads because I told her I have profits from Bitcoin to declare in 2017 and fellow bitcoin owners laugh at me for doing so.


----------



## Danny

Marina628 just curious how would they acquire the cryptocurency without using any banking or credit card. Would this occur by them selling something in exchange for the currency.


----------



## new dog

Isn't this like Al Capone or something marina? I think the authorities are onto this and are just holding back for now.


----------



## sags

Declaring bitcoin profits in the wrong column may be a mistake in the application of legal tax avoidance.

Hiding the profits from bitcoins would be tax evasion and subject to civil and criminal penalties.


----------



## sags

This reminds me of when I was speculating on domain names. The CRA wanted any profit to be declared and taxes paid but would not allow losses be declared.

I suspect they will take the same approach to bitcoins. If you make a profit they want a cut. If you lose money.........it sucks to be you.


----------



## marina628

Bitcoin has been in the gaming sector for years ,casinos have been offering bitcoin as an option to get paid winnings for along time ,in fact at least 2 years ago one of the bigger brands went bitcoin only.That is how i got my first coins playing poker online ,in fact if I didn't gamble online I definitely would never have gotten any coins.How deep online gambling is connected to bitcoin is probably something the main stream media and institutional investors may not be comfortable with.People who live in countries where it is illegal are now making anonymous accounts ,depositing and winning bitcoin and the casinos themselves never know who they so how are governments suppose to find out and tax them.Google Bitcoin Casinos and you will see a huge factor in the popularity of crypto currencies in this niche.Remember guys I was in this when they were $3-$10 a coin.


----------



## marina628

sags said:


> This reminds me of when I was speculating on domain names. The CRA wanted any profit to be declared and taxes paid but would not allow losses be declared.
> 
> I suspect they will take the same approach to bitcoins. If you make a profit they want a cut. If you lose money.........it sucks to be you.


You are bringing me back to the old days 2006/2007 when you could buy a pr7 on snap names for$4000 andflip it for $10,000 over night lol


----------



## fatcat

Danny said:


> Marina628 just curious how would they acquire the cryptocurency without using any banking or credit card. Would this occur by them selling something in exchange for the currency.


just use cash https://localbitcoins.com


----------



## Danny

Thanks Marina628. That makes sense on how people could acquire some without using bank account or visa.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

One of bitcoin's original premises was that it was anonymous. We've seen that didn't turn out to be true. 
So it is safe to assume that police and taxation resources still go into tracking and identifying users of cryptocurrencies. Like moths to a light, it attracts nefarious global interests so it is a natural place to look, well worth their effort.
I'd be assuming its on the radar, not the other way. 
There's a reason Marina is as successful as she is - because she is smart!


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Careful kids: Bitfinex and Tether.
https://www.thestar.com/business/we...er-large-bitcoin-exchange-draws-warnings.html


----------



## marina628

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> One of bitcoin's original premises was that it was anonymous. We've seen that didn't turn out to be true.
> So it is safe to assume that police and taxation resources still go into tracking and identifying users of cryptocurrencies. Like moths to a light, it attracts nefarious global interests so it is a natural place to look, well worth their effort.
> I'd be assuming its on the radar, not the other way.
> There's a reason Marina is as successful as she is - because she is smart!


I am sure it is still possible to remain anonymous with bitcoin and am sure even my own in Blockchain was until I decided I would like to get cash in my hands for it .Then you have no choice but open wallets like Kracken,Coinbase ,coinsquare etc and definitely they have all my ID on hand.


----------



## sags

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Careful kids: Bitfinex and Tether.
> https://www.thestar.com/business/we...er-large-bitcoin-exchange-draws-warnings.html


Sorry we got hacked and all your money is gone. We are no longer in business. Have a great day !


----------



## forrory1

sags said:


> Sorry we got hacked and all your money is gone. We are no longer in business. Have a great day !


Yes this exactly.

Vs. our current situation "Thank you very much everyone for the bailout I am really enjoying my new yacht and offshore accounts. -Signed Banksters.


----------



## zylon

You heard it here first:
*@ 14:10* "_(Toronto) is pretty much unlivable now, with below zero temperatures being the norm in the winter"_.
~Clueless Interviewer

Nov 27, 2017 - When Bitcoin is Outlawed, Only Outlaws will have Bitcoin

https://youtu.be/zGIDKonhUf4?t=13m55s


----------



## sags

The only thing I wonder is when the bitcoin bubble bursts.....will it be with a whimper or a bang. 

Will it be a spectacular overnight implosion down to $0, or a torturous steady drip down ?

With the bitcoin price at $10,000 USD..........it looks like the end is drawing near.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> With the bitcoin price at $10,000 USD..........it looks like the end is drawing near.


Why would that mark the end?


----------



## forrory1

sags said:


> The only thing I wonder is when the bitcoin bubble bursts.....will it be with a whimper or a bang.
> 
> Will it be a spectacular overnight implosion down to $0, or a torturous steady drip down ?
> 
> With the bitcoin price at $10,000 USD..........it looks like the end is drawing near.



Thought you might enjoy the endless hours of reading... https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoinobituaries/


Personally I'm still waiting for this online bookstore nonsense to implode. Who possibly needs books delivered the same day via drone? Governments will never allow it and what about the birds...

R

PS. Bitcoin price All time high $9941 USD, $12800 CAD


----------



## sags

People will only be able to afford pitifully small shavings of a bitcoin that are not worth the time or effort to speculate with.

Do "new" people really want to go through all the documentation hassle to buy .0099 of 1 bitcoin ?

Without the new people............the speculation ends and it is all over.

Netflix has a documentary called Boom Bust Boom on it about financial bubbles. It is very informative. All the warning signs are present in bitcoins.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Without the new people............the speculation ends and it is all over.


The same is true for the stock market, though.


----------



## sags

forrory1 said:


> Thought you might enjoy the endless hours of reading... https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoinobituaries/
> 
> 
> Personally I'm still waiting for this online bookstore nonsense to implode. Who possibly needs books delivered the same day via drone? Governments will never allow it and what about the birds...
> 
> R
> 
> PS. Bitcoin price All time high $9941 USD, $12800 CAD


It is a normal consequence in every speculative bubble that the people inside the bubble lose all objectivity.

Bitcoins.............perform what vital function that makes them worth $10,000 ?


----------



## sags

And so it begins.............

https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/me...mbat-money-laundering-and-terrorist-financing


----------



## forrory1

sags said:


> People will only be able to afford pitifully small shavings of a bitcoin that are not worth the time or effort to speculate with.
> 
> Do "new" people really want to go through all the documentation hassle to buy .0099 of 1 bitcoin ?
> 
> Without the new people............the speculation ends and it is all over.
> 
> Netflix has a documentary called Boom Bust Boom on it about financial bubbles. It is very informative. All the warning signs are present in bitcoins.


I can't tell if this is a serious statement or not. Bitcoins are divisible as you are well aware. I just fail to understand your logic on how that impacts someones ability to speculate? Better divisible then dilute-able I think. 

Documentation hassle? You don't need to book and appointment and then wait 3-5 businesses days as is standard with most finance related things today. You just install an app, my grandmother who doesn't speak English is excellent at this. 

I will take your tip and do some research on Netflix tonight.

R


----------



## nathan79

sags said:


> The only thing I wonder is when the bitcoin bubble bursts.....will it be with a whimper or a bang.
> 
> Will it be a spectacular overnight implosion down to $0, or a torturous steady drip down ?
> 
> With the bitcoin price at $10,000 USD..........it looks like the end is drawing near.


You'd like that, wouldn't you? 

The price of one whole Bitcoin really has minimal impact on people's desire to speculate.

Since Bitcoin is divisible to eight decimal places, .0099 Bitcoin is 990,000 Satoshi (the base unit of Bitcoins)

One share of BRK.A currently costs $280,700 USD... does that stop people from buying BRK.B ($186.85)?


----------



## Pluto

Seems like bitcoin is moving toward a climax top. Eventually it will take the elevator down. Last ones in get eaten for desert.


----------



## Pluto

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-chance-of-a-bitcoin-crash-is-greater-than-80-2017-11-27


----------



## sags

Over $11,000 USD and climbing. $17,000 USD in Zimbabwe............lol.


----------



## sags

nathan79 said:


> You'd like that, wouldn't you?
> 
> The price of one whole Bitcoin really has minimal impact on people's desire to speculate.
> 
> Since Bitcoin is divisible to eight decimal places, .0099 Bitcoin is 990,000 Satoshi (the base unit of Bitcoins)
> 
> One share of BRK.A currently costs $280,700 USD... does that stop people from buying BRK.B ($186.85)?


The Wall Street sharks have entered the market and are pushing the price up in a classic pump and dump. 

A market of purchases of tiny amounts of bitcoins, makes it relatively cheap to manipulate the price continually upwards.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

^ LOL. I read that as well. How much it is worth depends on the exchange and country. Sensible borderless, global currency eh.
So I'm thinking of chartering a plane and all of us bitcoin millionaires can fly over to Zimbabwe to cash in as billionaires instead. Picking up an easy 70% is worth it no?


----------



## hboy54

Hi:

For some reason the "reply with quote" button is not working for me, both on my cell phone, and desk top machine. Might be a problem that is not at my end. So cut and paste will have to do ...

Quote Originally Posted by sags View Post
Without the new people............the speculation ends and it is all over.
The same is true for the stock market, though.

Really?! James, you place the stock market in the same category as bitcoin? There is no difference in say OSB Norbord making a useful product, namely oriented strand board, and bitcoin that is ... what exactly? You see something with bitcoin, but all I see is pretend and make believe. Now pretend and make believe can occasionally make people much money, see say pet rocks circa late 1975, but surely the stock market is a wee bit more deterministic, no?

hboy54


----------



## off.by.10

Hey, we've found at least one use for bitcoin: entertainment 

But yeah, I agree that most of it is just people who want very badly something to be true, reality be damned.


----------



## forrory1

Starting to look like a trend/race towards mass adoption.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/nasdaq-plans-to-launch-bitcoin-futures-in-first-half-2018-1511968313

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ming-this-year-but-date-not-set-idUSKBN1DL1QP


New all time high $11441 USD, $14700 CAD.

R


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

forrory1 said:


> Starting to look like a trend/race towards mass adoption.
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/nasdaq-plans-to-launch-bitcoin-futures-in-first-half-2018-1511968313
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ming-this-year-but-date-not-set-idUSKBN1DL1QP
> New all time high $11441 USD, $14700 CAD.
> R


Hmm, mass adoption by the futures market eh.
That's just speculating on the speculators. Says nothing about its utility. 
What I want to know is if I can still get north for $17,000 for my bitcoins in Zimbabwe? We're just boarding the plane to fly there now.


----------



## james4beach

hboy54 said:


> Really?! James, you place the stock market in the same category as bitcoin?


They're similar in many ways. The stock market in the short term (say 10 years or less) is just a gamble and doesn't have much to do with economic or corporate fundamentals. Look at (Shiller) P/E for example. The multiple on US stocks has increased from 20x in 2010 to currently over 30x. People are chasing returns, there hasn't been any serious correction in a long time, people are now expecting very high rates of forward returns. I think it's a mistake for any investor to underestimate how much of the stock market is driven by psychology, greed, and speculation.

Could the US (Shiller) multiple increase to above 40x ? Maybe! Look at the thread someone posted just a few hours ago: Will the S&P 500 double in 2018?

Myself, I think many of us lie to ourselves about stock investing. We pretend stock investment is about fundamentals but I think it's much more about speculation. It's just a traditional/approved kind of speculation. When something like bitcoin comes along, it's much more clearly speculation.

The stock market is even full of derivative/offshoot speculation. The futures market is huge, with everyone from small gamblers to institutions taking positions in index futures. Options gambling is huge too, just look at SPY options. During the last few years, there's been a massive amount of speculation on volatility, with fortunes made in "inverse volatility" bets like XIV ... creating rates of return very similar to bitcoin.

In the LONG term however (which I'd say is 20+ years) I suspect the fair value of bitcoin is 0 whereas the aggregate value of the stock market will very likely rise. In this respect, stock investment is absolutely different than a short term speculation hype.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Wasn't part of the attraction of bitcoin the idea that it circumvented the evil central bankers and big banks and offered a currency 'for the people'?
Interesting then to read that 88% of all bitcoin is controlled by _less than[/] 1% of the world's bitcoin miners.
We know easily who runs the banks and what their renumeration is. 
Anybody know who the 1% bitcoiners are? Anything on SEDAR? Didn't think so._


----------



## sags

The difference between stocks and bitcoins is that stocks represent the value of companies who have assets........cash reserves, buildings, products...........etc.

Bitcoin has.............................?


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

I mean what could go wrong....
https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/201...us-subpoenas-cryptocurrency-transaction-info/


----------



## nathan79

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Wasn't part of the attraction of bitcoin the idea that it circumvented the evil central bankers and big banks and offered a currency 'for the people'?
> Interesting then to read that 88% of all bitcoin is controlled by _less than[/] 1% of the world's bitcoin miners.
> We know easily who runs the banks and what their renumeration is.
> Anybody know who the 1% bitcoiners are? Anything on SEDAR? Didn't think so._


_

There are certainly some "whales" out there, but perhaps not quite as many as it seems. 

A number of the larger addresses are actually exchange wallets, which hold many different people's bitcoins. Most exchanges control multiple addresses with large numbers of coins. 

In addition, there are roughly 1 million bitcoins that were mined by Satoshi (bitcoin's creator) when he first launched the network. These coins are spread across several thousand addresses holding approx. 50 BTC each. It's unknown whether he still possesses the private keys to these addresses (or is still alive), since no coins have ever been spent from any of them. 

Of course, Satoshi would not be the only person to have once controlled a large number of coins, only to have lost them. This occurred frequently in the early days of the network, mostly due to lax security practices and the very low initial value of the coins. Some people even deleted wallets holding hundreds of bitcoins, which were only worth a few dollars at best.

Last I checked, you only need about 15 bitcoins to join the 1% club. Not a trivial amount of money, but hardly unattainable._


----------



## nathan79

sags said:


> The difference between stocks and bitcoins is that stocks represent the value of companies who have assets........cash reserves, buildings, products...........etc.
> 
> Bitcoin has.............................?


It feels pointless to reply since you're obviously entrenched in your views, but maybe someone will get something out of these articles...

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/why-bitcoin-has-value-cm733313
https://www.wired.com/story/bitcoin-has-no-intrinsic-value-neither-does-a-dollar1-bill/
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/11/how-bitcoins-became-worth-10000/


----------



## forrory1

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Interesting then to read that 88% of all bitcoin is controlled by _less than[/] 1% of the world's bitcoin miners._


_

Your understanding of what role miners have within bitcoin is incorrect if you believe they "control" bitcoin. 

Miners are hired labor in a free market. They control nothing.

R_


----------



## off.by.10

forrory1 said:


> Your understanding of what role miners have within bitcoin is incorrect if you believe they "control" bitcoin.
> 
> Miners are hired labor in a free market. They control nothing.


Ever heard of unions? Have you seen what happens in France when the "hired labor" is unhappy about a decision?

The miners do have some control. They can choose to implement (or not) new features of the protocol. Kind of like that "hired labor" choosing to go work for someone else. And because of bitcoin's insane architecture, those miners now use custom hardware which can't be replaced without a huge capital outlay. Kind of like a highly specialized labor force.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Sorry in advance for my 'dumb' questions.

When a consumer buys bitcoin, I assume its bought as a commodity on the stock market?
If so, who does that money go to?

And what good is a 'currency' if its worth 11000:1 - how practical is it in circulation?


----------



## TomB16

off.by.10 said:


> But yeah, I agree that most of it is just people who want very badly something to be true, reality be damned.


Isn't that the definition of a currency? Paper or plastic is only as "real" as people believe it is, also.


----------



## nathan79

Mortgage u/w said:


> Sorry in advance for my 'dumb' questions.
> 
> When a consumer buys bitcoin, I assume its bought as a commodity on the stock market?
> If so, who does that money go to?
> 
> And what good is a 'currency' if its worth 11000:1 - how practical is it in circulation?


It's traded on exchanges just like stocks. You can only buy if someone else is selling. Most people then withdraw the money to their personal wallet. You can also buy them in person with cash, or from a special Bitcoin ATM which are located in some malls and convenience stores.

Since Bitcoin is divisible to eight decimal places, you could simply move the decimal to the left. 1/1000th of a bitcoin is called a milli-bitcoin (mBTC), 1/100,000 is called a micro-bitcoin (μBTC). You can also have balance displayed as the value in dollars. Most wallets offer these features.


----------



## nathan79

off.by.10 said:


> Ever heard of unions? Have you seen what happens in France when the "hired labor" is unhappy about a decision?
> 
> The miners do have some control. They can choose to implement (or not) new features of the protocol. Kind of like that "hired labor" choosing to go work for someone else. And because of bitcoin's insane architecture, those miners now use custom hardware which can't be replaced without a huge capital outlay. Kind of like a highly specialized labor force.


Anyone who runs a full node controls Bitcoin. That's typically miners, but regular users can also run full nodes by downloading the blockchain with Bitcoin Core wallet (must open port 8333 to perform as a full node).


----------



## new dog

John McAfee upped his wager to 1 million dollars from 500,000 dollars by the end of 2020. I guess he had better be right and it is not in a bubble or he will be having his dick for lunch.

https://www.marketwatch.com/(S(rnrs...jon-mcafee-ramps-up-his-nsfw-wager-2017-11-29


----------



## new dog

John McAfee upped his wager to 1 million dollars from 500,000 dollars by the end of 2020. I guess he had better be right and it is not in a bubble or he will be having his dick for lunch.

https://www.marketwatch.com/(S(rnrs...jon-mcafee-ramps-up-his-nsfw-wager-2017-11-29


----------



## new dog

And then there is Katy Perry meeting with Warren Buffett asking about Bitcoin. Of course Buffett figures it has no value and is in a bubble. Also you would have to think it is getting to an end of its bubble if Katy Perry is Talking about it.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/29/kat...t-apparently-gabbed-about-cryptocurrency.html


----------



## sags

This...........John McAfee ?

http://www.newsweek.com/john-mcafee-says-belize-government-trying-kidnap-him-720189


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Ha ha, oh gawd yes. Poor San Pedro will never be the same.
This is an endorsement to be taken seriously :->
And in spite of flopping in 2016, I think he will successfully become President in 2020. 
After Trump it's the natural progression of wingnuts.


----------



## forrory1

Miners don't control bitcoin read it on forbes. Ignore the FUD.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ktorpe...tcoin-isnt-controlled-by-miners/#51abfdd4de3c


Welcome PwC!
https://www.wsj.com/articles/pricewaterhousecoopers-accepts-fee-in-bitcoin-1512036992


On Nov 29th Bitcoin hit a new all time high. Centralized exchanged started to experience their websites crashing from the shear volume of users. Coinbase the largest US exchange stated they saw 8 times the volume of users compared to their previous record set in June 2017.

R


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Finally I understand what cryptocurrencies are all about! 
It turns out they are for buying-selling-tradig-breeding crypo kitties: https://bitcoinist.com/cryptokitties-game-dominating-ethereum-blockchain/ 
It all makes sense now, and seems like such an eminently sensible and cute thing.
View attachment 17065


----------



## new dog

Not only that OnlyMyOpinion but it is a great place to hack as well. 62 million dollars or 4700 bitcoins were stolen from NiceHash. So if governments or nobody is there to back you up then I suppose your finished if you stored your coins at NiceHash.

https://www.coindesk.com/62-million-gone-cryptocurrency-mining-market-nicehash-hacked/

One can try to say it is free from banks or governments but so is any compensation.


----------



## nathan79

new dog said:


> Not only that OnlyMyOpinion but it is a great place to hack as well. 62 million dollars or 4700 bitcoins were stolen from NiceHash. So if governments or nobody is there to back you up then *I suppose your finished if you stored your coins at NiceHash*.


Well, that goes back to Bitcoin 101... don't store a large amount of coins on any site, including NiceHash, mining pools, and exchanges. These are not bank accounts -- they're not meant for long term storage. While these services can hold your coins as a convenience, you shouldn't rely on them to hold more than you are willing to lose. There are plenty of good wallets available, but I recommend a hardware wallet or a paper wallet.

As I say this I currently have about 2.5% of my crypto spread across two exchanges -- a manageable level of risk for me, but everyone has a different risk tolerance.


----------



## fatcat

nathan79 said:


> Well, that goes back to Bitcoin 101... don't store a large amount of coins on any site, including NiceHash, mining pools, and exchanges. These are not bank accounts -- they're not meant for long term storage. While these services can hold your coins as a convenience, you shouldn't rely on them to hold more than you are willing to lose. There are plenty of good wallets available, but I recommend a hardware wallet or a paper wallet.
> 
> As I say this I currently have about 2.5% of my crypto spread across two exchanges -- a manageable level of risk for me, but everyone has a different risk tolerance.


i think that to hold coins in any way other than a hardware or paper wallet is a mistake ... this is one of the large hurdles, aside from complexity, that is holding bitcoin back, the possibility of losing or having coins stolen and sole-ownership is the answer ... along with obsessive-compulsive backing up


----------



## nathan79

fatcat said:


> i think that to hold coins in any way other than a hardware or paper wallet is a mistake ... this is one of the large hurdles, aside from complexity, that is holding bitcoin back, the possibility of losing or having coins stolen and sole-ownership is the answer ... along with obsessive-compulsive backing up


For large amounts, definitely. But for smaller amounts I wouldn't hesitate to use any of the major software wallets (Core, Electrum, Mycelium, etc). With proper security practices they can be quite safe. 

We have a ways to go, but things are improving. I remember when the Bitcoin Core wallet didn't even have encryption. Anyone could steal your private key if they got access to your computer.

I would like to see hardware wallets come down in price so they become more practical for everyday users.


----------



## james4beach

The other danger with leaving them at an exchange is once the feds nail them for tax evasion, your coins could be confiscated.


----------



## forrory1

james4beach said:


> The other danger with leaving them at an exchange is once the feds nail them for tax evasion, your coins could be confiscated.


Unless you never sold so no capital gains... or you can just pay your taxes. I don't see how this is any different than fiat cash. :confused-new:

Price update all time high $15898 USD, $19200 CAD

R


----------



## sags

IBM is advertising their "blockchain" in the cloud. No mention of bitcoins needed.


----------



## sags

james4beach said:


> The other danger with leaving them at an exchange is once the feds nail them for tax evasion, your coins could be confiscated.


Citing "suspected terrorist activities" gives the government a lot of leeway in freezing accounts and the general public supports them without question.


----------



## My Own Advisor

How on earth do you buy this stuff? People can't be buying 1 unit or a handful for $12,000 each???

Crazy....

Why buy something where it's value changes by 10-20% in a day??


----------



## Mortgage u/w

My Own Advisor said:


> Why buy something where it's value changes by 10-20% in a day??


Because they are heavy gamblers


----------



## marina628

Mortgage u/w said:


> Because they are heavy gamblers


Yup and now at over $15,000 usd I am looking like a genuis lol
It is not just about bitcoin though I have been in 42 coins since most are up 500 -1300% ,have a feeling in 6 months 25k will come , I am now playing a game called let it ride .


----------



## nobleea

"More worryingly, Bitcoin's energy demands are set to explode.

"As bitcoin grows, the math problems computers must solve to make more bitcoin get more and more difficult," which means more processing power is needed, Holthaus wrote.

And he made a startling forecast: Without a significant change in how transactions are processed, bitcoin could be consuming enough electricity to power the U.S. by the middle of 2019.

Six months later, that demand could equal the world's power consumption."

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/07/technology/bitcoin-energy-environment/index.html?iid=hp-toplead-dom


----------



## tygrus

Only a matter of time before the govts ban it. They arent going to let a currency they dont control rise up. I would buy the counter trade - US dollars and gold cause when this thing blows up.


----------



## nathan79

nobleea said:


> "More worryingly, Bitcoin's energy demands are set to explode.
> 
> "As bitcoin grows, the math problems computers must solve to make more bitcoin get more and more difficult," which means more processing power is needed, Holthaus wrote.
> 
> And he made a startling forecast: Without a significant change in how transactions are processed, bitcoin could be consuming enough electricity to power the U.S. by the middle of 2019.
> 
> Six months later, that demand could equal the world's power consumption."
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/07/technology/bitcoin-energy-environment/index.html?iid=hp-toplead-dom


More balanced article: http://www.wired.co.uk/article/how-much-energy-does-bitcoin-mining-really-use


----------



## nathan79

From the link I posted above 


> Bevand notes that at his figures, mining eats up around 4TWh annually, less than the energy used by Christmas lights in the US by a third.


Guess we should ban Christmas lights? lol

I do think we need to address the reduce electricity use of Bitcoin, but it helps to put things in perspective. When you really think about it, a large percentage of global electricity is used for relatively frivolous activities.

How much electricity is used for sporting events, casinos, concerts, movie theaters, restaurants, decorative lighting (including Christmas lights), and other unnecessary things? Since we're talking about electricity use, that doesn't even factor in people driving their SUVs to football games, air travel, or unnecessary car trips, which all consume huge amounts of energy.

Of course, I understand that people pick on Bitcoin because it's something new, and many of those people already have agendas or are looking for ways to dismiss it.


----------



## MoneyCanada

sags said:


> IBM is advertising their "blockchain" in the cloud. No mention of bitcoins needed.


Bitcoin isn't synonymous with Blockchain. Blockchain is a revolutionary mean of de-centralization of software while Bitcoin is a currency developed on the Blockchain. Somehow, the more Blockchain is a part of tech world, the higher the BTC goes but I am not sure it will stay like this forever. This is why I personally added ETH to my investment portfolio, I know it is technologically superior, more modern and has more functionality in relation to Blockchain.. and has bigger upside.


----------



## My Own Advisor

marina628 said:


> Yup and now at over $15,000 usd I am looking like a genuis lol
> It is not just about bitcoin though I have been in 42 coins since most are up 500 -1300% ,have a feeling in 6 months 25k will come , I am now playing a game called let it ride .


How are you buying this Marina?
Are you doing this through an ETF?

https://www.etftrends.com/etf-resume.php?quote=arkk


----------



## MoneyCanada

james4beach said:


> But so are USD, EUR, CHF, CAD, AUD, JPY, gold...
> 
> Nothing unique about bitcoin there. Any of the above are a more stable store of wealth than the Venezuelan bolívar. The above are also more stable than bitcoin as a store of wealth.


Sorry for chiming in so late. I think you're wrong. If economy collapses to an extent there's a hyperinflation like you see now in Venezuela, you completely lose trust in banks and governments. If you were to tap into an USD account and was able to purchase it (many governments limit FX transactions at times of crisis), it may very well be confiscated later on in the future, or lost, or something along these lines. Gold is indeed a physical asset but it sounds a bit old-school to move around with a large sack of gold on your shoulders. And then you have BTC which [is now difficult to purchase but upon regulation will be] accessible. And anonymous. Can't be stolen, can't be confiscated, can't be taxed. 

If what's happening now in the crypto markets will lead to a market cap of trillions of dollars or more, it means BTC is here to stay. If it is driven completely by speculators and will never be used as a real mean of payment, it will devalue to nothing.

PS was invited to buy bitcoin at $3 a pop back in the day and said that it sounds too speculative. I think what I learnt from it is that if you have an opportunity to buy something for peanuts that can turn into a giant (even if it has slim chances of actually making it, or so I thought circa 2010-2011), just put $100 in and forget about it, worst case scenario you lost a small portion but if you lose out on the opportunity you will forever live in remorse


----------



## MoneyCanada

new dog said:


> John McAfee upped his wager to 1 million dollars from 500,000 dollars by the end of 2020. I guess he had better be right and it is not in a bubble or he will be having his dick for lunch.
> 
> https://www.marketwatch.com/(S(rnrs...jon-mcafee-ramps-up-his-nsfw-wager-2017-11-29


I bet Jon McAfee has loads of coins and that's utter personal interest there.


----------



## sags

Bitcoin is the reward for miners to authorize transactions on the blockchain. 

How is blockchain going to be de-centralized if there is no payment to independent miners ?


----------



## nathan79

sags said:


> Bitcoin is the reward for miners to authorize transactions on the blockchain.
> 
> How is blockchain going to be de-centralized if there is no payment to independent miners ?


Not sure I understand the question. No one said anything about getting rid of mining completely. Maybe you are talking about what happens once all the Bitcoins have been mined? If so, the miners will still get paid by the transaction fees, which should be higher by then, assuming there will be more transactions.

How about creative uses for Bitcoin mining, such as heating homes?

https://www.rt.com/business/408556-siberia-bitcoin-mining-energy/


----------



## sags

I can look back and see a lot of things I should have bought to make easy money. Looking forward isn't as clear.


----------



## nathan79

My Own Advisor said:


> How on earth do you buy this stuff? People can't be buying 1 unit or a handful for $12,000 each???
> 
> Crazy....
> 
> Why buy something where it's value changes by 10-20% in a day??


You can buy as little as you want... .01 or even .00000001

Although having a whole Bitcoin does put you in an increasingly exclusive club, it's no more necessary than buying an entire bar of gold.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

I still don't entirely understand this digital currency - if that is what it still is.

Are people just buying the wave or buying with hopes this currency can actually buy you something else?


----------



## My Own Advisor

nathan79 said:


> You can buy as little as you want... .01 or even .00000001
> 
> Although having a whole Bitcoin does put you in an increasingly exclusive club, it's no more necessary than buying an entire bar of gold.


I didn't know you could buy such a low partial share/unit of Bitcoin. Is there no ticker symbol for it? 

Not that I'm buying any....just curious...

I need to read up on this stuff...I really don't understand how such a currency can rise so high, so fast, and it has no real currency denomination.


----------



## forrory1

sags said:


> Bitcoin is the reward for miners to authorize transactions on the blockchain.
> 
> How is blockchain going to be de-centralized if there is no payment to independent miners ?


I like how you are looking 120+ years into the future on this. 2140 is the year bitcoin mining will stop paying miner and they will have to rely on network fee. 

I wonder how much the USD monetary base will grow by 2140 considering the rate the FED has been printing paper money at.

Bitcoin price all time high $19697 USD, $25262.78 CAD

R


----------



## FI40

sags said:


> I can look back and see a lot of things I should have bought to make easy money. Looking forward isn't as clear.


Exactly. A friend lamented recently "if only I knew about bitcoin when it was around $10 or so, I'd be rich". I told him I knew about it when bitcoins were worth about that much, and I didn't buy any. His response was "You knew about it??!! Come on, it was only $10! I can't believe you didn't buy a few!" I had a 2-part reply:

1. A millibitcoin (not sure if that's the proper term) is around $10 right now. You are aware bitcoins exist. Go ahead and buy one, maybe it'll be worth 10k one day. What's so special about the unit?

2. It's easy looking back. I'd love to retroactively buy lottery tickets too, that'd be a pretty good way to make money if it were possible. Unfortunately though I don't have a time machine so I need to make the best decision I can with the information available.


----------



## james4beach

How exactly do you sell bitcoin and get cash proceeds?

One of my coworker has been trying to sell some of his (significant) bitcoin holdings and he tells us that it's been extremely painful. Exchanges have daily withdrawal limits, others won't complete his request, others won't verify his identity to finalize cash transfers out.


----------



## james4beach

marina628 said:


> It is not just about bitcoin though I have been in 42 coins since most are up 500 -1300% ,have a feeling in 6 months 25k will come , I am now playing a game called let it ride .


I suggest that you try selling some of them, just to make sure you have worked out the procedure of how to turn a "coin" into CAD.


----------



## sags

Yup.....bitcoin went from $16,000 to $19,700 in a few seconds and then dropped to $16,000 and Coinbase's servers crashed.

There are 200,000 transactions frozen in place and people have been waiting for weeks to get their money out.

The online gaming site Steam has withdrawn all support from bitcoin. It cited volatility and high fee costs as the reasons.

This is purely speculative, has no intrinsic value and will crash to zero.


----------



## nathan79

james4beach said:


> How exactly do you sell bitcoin and get cash proceeds?
> 
> One of my coworker has been trying to sell some of his (significant) bitcoin holdings and he tells us that it's been extremely painful. Exchanges have daily withdrawal limits, others won't complete his request, others won't verify his identity to finalize cash transfers out.


I've had no trouble selling... can't really speak to withdrawing funds though, since I reinvested the proceeds into other coins.

I know you dislike Quadrigacx, but they offer free EFT withdrawals for up to $100,000. It does take 7 days, however.


----------



## james4beach

I'm definitely going to wait for friends to tell me first hand experiences of successfully withdrawing money, before I go and entrust thousands of $ to a company in the Bahamas that may or may not pay me out the cash.


----------



## AltaRed

Pfffffffffffffffft! The Dutch tulip speculative bubble of 1637, except I could actually do something with the tulip bulbs.


----------



## indexxx

Not knowing anything about Bitcoins, I was looking around for some info and found this video- it's pretty interesting.


----------



## crgf1k

FI40 said:


> Exactly. A friend lamented recently "if only I knew about bitcoin when it was around $10 or so, I'd be rich". I told him I knew about it when bitcoins were worth about that much, and I didn't buy any. His response was "You knew about it??!! Come on, it was only $10! I can't believe you didn't buy a few!" I had a 2-part reply:
> 
> 1. A millibitcoin (not sure if that's the proper term) is around $10 right now. You are aware bitcoins exist. Go ahead and buy one, maybe it'll be worth 10k one day. What's so special about the unit?
> 
> 2. It's easy looking back. I'd love to retroactively buy lottery tickets too, that'd be a pretty good way to make money if it were possible. Unfortunately though I don't have a time machine so I need to make the best decision I can with the information available.


Right, and if someone wanted to get in on the "ground floor" of a cryptocurrency, there are currently 1324 different ones to choose from.


----------



## james4beach

Talking more with people at work today, there are several stories about people who wanted to sell their coins but could not. This is clearly an illiquid market that might be easy to get into, but hard to unload big positions for several reasons.

The story my coworker told today about his experience really opened my eyes. He hopped from one exchange to the next, encountering road blocks at every turn. Hidden daily withdrawal limits (not advertised on their web sites), system glitches, and other factors that stopped him from being able to sell-to-cash.

This price might be skyrocketing because it's currently very easy to get money into the system, but very hard to liquidate back to dollars.


----------



## nathan79

The volume was nuts today, so yeah I'm not surprised to hear there were problems. This kind of exponential growth puts a lot of strain on exchanges and the whole bitcoin ecosystem.

The withdrawal limits vary a lot depending on the method, and they do seem to fluctuate. 

This is what Quadrigacx is offering me at the moment:



HTML:


 	                        Transaction Limits 	        24hr Limit 	        Time Frame 	     Fee 	
Rapid Bank Transfer 	        Min $1,000CAD - Max $5,000CAD 	$5,000CAD 	    Next Business Day 	    5% 	
Express Bank Transfer 	        Min $500CAD - Max $100,000CAD 	$100,000CAD 	Within 3 Business Days 	    2% 	
Interac e-Transfer 	        Min $100CAD - Max $5,000CAD 	$10,000CAD 	Within 2 Business Days 	    2% + $5CAD 	
Cash Delivery 	                Min $500CAD - Max $5,000CAD 	$10,000CAD 	Within 3 Business Days 	    2% + $20CAD 	
Direct Bank Transfer / EFT 	Min $50CAD - Max $20,000CAD 	$100,000CAD 	Within 7 Business Days 	    Free 	
Bank Wire                       Min $100CAD - Max $500,000CAD 	$500,000CAD 	Within 10 Business Days     Free 	
Crypto Capital 	                Min $500CAD - Max $500,000CAD 	$500,000CAD 	Next Business Day 	    Free 	
Voucher                         Min $10CAD - Max $3,000CAD 	$3,000CAD 	        Instant 	    Free


----------



## peterk

Can I buy Puts yet?


----------



## nathan79

peterk said:


> Can I buy Puts yet?


You can trade futures coming Monday http://cfe.cboe.com/cfe-products/xb...n-futures&utm_medium=vanity-url&utm_source=na


----------



## sags

People won't be able to trade anonymously though.

Will the government allow losses to be claimed ? There could be some big losses generated either way when people deal in futures.


----------



## Pluto

james4beach said:


> Talking more with people at work today, there are several stories about people who wanted to sell their coins but could not. This is clearly an illiquid market that might be easy to get into, but hard to unload big positions for several reasons.
> 
> The story my coworker told today about his experience really opened my eyes. He hopped from one exchange to the next, encountering road blocks at every turn. Hidden daily withdrawal limits (not advertised on their web sites), system glitches, and other factors that stopped him from being able to sell-to-cash.
> 
> This price might be skyrocketing because it's currently very easy to get money into the system, but very hard to liquidate back to dollars.


very interesting. This seems to be a clue. Lots of anguish around the corner for bitcoin holders.


----------



## sags

The good news is it won't be a systemic problem because bitcoins aren't part of the financial system.


----------



## zylon

*Benzinga*

The guys spend about ten minutes talking about bitcoin,
and Joel describes what happened when he decided to sell.

https://youtu.be/wjPYkKNplwU?t=3m14s


----------



## sags

With 100,000 transactions waiting to be authorized, people have to bribe the miners with a higher fee. Low fee transactions don't get verified.

One guy wanted to sell $4500 worth of bitcoin. The fee was $1300. He turned it down so now he waits. 

People have been waiting for a week. Imagine having to bid a high fee to have every debit transaction approved or having to hang around the store for a week.


----------



## nathan79

sags said:


> With 100,000 transactions waiting to be authorized, people have to bribe the miners with a higher fee. Low fee transactions don't get verified.
> 
> One guy wanted to sell $4500 worth of bitcoin. The fee was $1300. He turned it down so now he waits.
> 
> People have been waiting for a week. Imagine having to bid a high fee to have every debit transaction approved or having to hang around the store for a week.


That's weird, because he could send it right now for about $22 and get confirmed in the next block (10 minutes). You could probably even squeak in under $20, but it might take several blocks (a few hours) to confirm.

Current fees and confirmation estimates here: https://bitcoinfees.earn.com/

(106,220 Satoshis = about $22 CAD)

There's no question these fees are still on the high side for lower value transactions, but scaling solutions are in development. Unfortunately, you can't rush them out without extensive testing.


Edit: Just wanted to add that fees are based on the size of the transaction in bytes, not the value of the transaction.


----------



## sags

Teslas, Lambos, luxury homes, million dollar donations..........what a wonderful new exciting way to earn money bitcoin has created.

And some people said money can't be printed out of thin air........LOL.


----------



## tavogl

I lost only a few hundred bucks with nicehash, I used to mine with them so I would hold a small amount of bitcoin every week... o well, lesson learned.


----------



## sags

180,000 unconfirmed transactions waiting.

Someone else said it is because so many people are involved who can only afford "dust" (tiny fractions of a bitcoin) and with each transaction requiring the same effort, they don't want to pay the fees.


----------



## new dog

Bitcoin can be whatever price it wants to be but will there really be an exit for most of the people to cash out into.


----------



## zylon

Catherine Austin Fitts has a take on bitcoin that I haven't heard before.



> *@28:50* It is much cheaper to run the price of cryptocurrencies and bitcoin up and get every software developer in the world figuring out how to do that, as opposed to hiring them all and paying them to do it. You're going to get there much faster.


- starting at bitcoin segment.
https://youtu.be/wcOM1e9blBI?t=27m30s


----------



## sags

Apple has applied for some patents for some kind of block chain type data record system.

Apple doesn't pay bitcoin miners or developers. Apple forces others to pay them.


----------



## nathan79

zylon said:


> Catherine Austin Fitts has a take on bitcoin that I haven't heard before.
> 
> 
> 
> - starting at bitcoin segment.
> https://youtu.be/wcOM1e9blBI?t=27m30s


Her argument basically amounts to a massive conspiracy theory.


----------



## fatcat

she's blowing it out her *** ... aside from the fact that she's a long time member of the royal-family-are-lizards nutters she completely misunderstands bitcoin, which by definition is as transparent as any currency could possibly be ... bitcoin is harder to manipulate than the us dollar

sure, the us government could be mining coins secretly but i doubt it

like alex jones and david icke, these people have narratives and they have to force every financial phenomenon so they fit their tiny conspiracy boxes


----------



## zylon

fatcat said:


> she's blowing it out her *** ... blah blah blah


And you're not full of **** !


----------



## fatcat

zylon said:


> And you're not full of **** !


depends on who you ask ... layful:


----------



## james4beach

Bitcoin futures started trading today. The price of the futures contract soared 25% and triggered two trading halts -- meant to calm down out-of-control contracts. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-trading-opens-bringing-crypto-to-wall-street

_Now they've really done it._

The derivative allows larger, more leveraged trading that doesn't even require real bitcoin transactions to occur. Ether upon ether. The CEO of Interactive Brokers argued (unsuccessfully) that bitcoin contracts shouldn't be permitted on systems that trade other derivatives, due to fear of contagion.

The big problem I see is arbitrage and tracking. The bitcoin market is not liquid or reliable enough to settle large trades, so it's not feasible to arbitrage giant futures positions to bitcoin exchanges. I don't see any reason that the futures will track the bitcoin price found at various exchanges.

Large bitcoin transactions take _hours_ to successfully "clear". How exactly are billions of notional $ in bitcoin futures supposed to be arbitraged to actual bitcoins?

This is gonna get crazy.


----------



## sags

I believe I read they are not allowing people to short bitcoins, and one question was who is taking the other side of the trades.

Arbitrage is almost impossible, except for insiders...(those who own and operate the exchanges and can approve their own transactions instantly). 

Imagine insiders of other exchanges, or perhaps family members each owning an exchange......working together to arbitrage bitcoins. The sky is the limit.



Here is a true story from me........judge it for yourself.


_We bought our last couple of vehicles from a young salesman. Every once in awhile we see him again to check out deals or when the car is in for maintenance.

They had a couple of Corvettes in the showroom and I asked the salesman if they sold many at those prices.........$100K and up.

He said that as a matter of fact he had just sold one to a young guy who was making a killing in bitcoins. He had also bought a pickup truck for his dad at the same time.

The guy had created some trading software for the bitcoin exchanges and instead of being paid a fee he agreed to a tiny amount from each trade.

It had started slow but now he is making millions every month._


----------



## sags

Q) How much did you pay for the car you bought on the weekend for 1 bitcoin ?

A) Either $19,000, $13,000 or $16,000.

Q) Wow..........a bad, good, or mediocre price then.


----------



## sags

After reading a number of articles in financial sections, it struck me that they all talk about how much Bitcoin is worth or has risen the past months.

None of the reporters seem interested in asking the simple question..........what function do bitcoins perform that makes them worth anything ?


----------



## Mortgage u/w

sags said:


> After reading a number of articles in financial sections, it struck me that they all talk about how much Bitcoin is worth or has risen the past months.
> 
> None of the reporters seem interested in asking the simple question..........what function do bitcoins perform that makes them worth anything ?


That's because we all know the answer already. Nothing.


----------



## james4beach

I looked into these futures a bit more, and I think the CBOE futures "settle" with an auction at the Gemini exchange. The Gemini exchange is owned by the Winklevoss twins, the guys who hold something like $3 billion of bitcoin between them.

It looks pretty obvious to me that the futures are a way for the Winklevoss to dump their bitcoin onto the public. Their wealth is trapped in bitcoin (which they can never dump using the regular bitcoin market), so they created their own exchange, and then helped create this contract to aid them in getting rid of their assets and realizing their wealth.

Futures and bitcoin are unregulated, so what could be happening is that Winklevoss & wealthy friends are manipulating the market price (painting the tape etc) and pushing the bitcoin price way up. Pump it big time, then bring the futures online. Get the excitement going so that the world starts buying up the futures.

Now they can sell some of that $3 billion in bitcoins to the public.


----------



## andrewf

Bitcoin has some uses, but they are dwarfed by the speculative bubble it finds itself in now.


----------



## BoringInvestor

james4beach said:


> I looked into these futures a bit more, and I think the CBOE futures "settle" with an auction at the Gemini exchange. The Gemini exchange is owned by the Winklevoss twins, the guys who hold something like $3 billion of bitcoin between them.
> 
> It looks pretty obvious to me that the futures are a way for the Winklevoss to dump their bitcoin onto the public. Their wealth is trapped in bitcoin (which they can never dump using the regular bitcoin market), so they created their own exchange, and then helped create this contract to aid them in getting rid of their assets and realizing their wealth.
> 
> Futures and bitcoin are unregulated, so what could be happening is that Winklevoss & wealthy friends are manipulating the market price (painting the tape etc) and pushing the bitcoin price way up. Pump it big time, then bring the futures online. Get the excitement going so that the world starts buying up the futures.
> 
> Now they can sell some of that $3 billion in bitcoins to the public.


Interesting, and if it's true and that's how they're dumping their coins, smart play on their part.


----------



## andrewf

Why would they not be able to sell their bitcoins directly?


----------



## sags

J4B description sounds like a crime waiting to happen.


----------



## sags

My son played online poker for months for free and finally won some tournaments and money to enter a real money tournament.

He was doing fine and went all in while holding a full house. He lost and 2 seconds later they were dealing another hand. He sat there busted and stunned.

Yup.........that is what is going to happen to the bitcoin millionaires who don't cash out in time.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Why would they not be able to sell their bitcoins directly?


The real bitcoin market doesn't have the liquidity to absorb someone dumping many millions $ worth. Also, single transactions take _hours_ to clear.



sags said:


> J4B description sounds like a crime waiting to happen.


This is just my understanding of it, it might all be completely legit, but the Winklevoss exchange (Gemini) is closely linked with the new futures contracts. And AFAIK there are no laws that would prevent someone from manipulating the price of bitcoin, painting the tape, or cornering the market. It is not a commodity.


----------



## sags

I don't really understand the complexities of the futures markets, but some may enjoy this discussion about the bitcoin futures market.

Gemini is mentioned as a possible problem of price manipulation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7j4dqt/confused_on_how_bitcoin_futures_work_be_confused/

Or this.......which is really complicated.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/7ixkxk/bitcoin_spot_and_futures_markets_101/


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> The real bitcoin market doesn't have the liquidity to absorb someone dumping many millions $ worth. Also, single transactions take _hours_ to clear.
> 
> 
> 
> This is just my understanding of it, it might all be completely legit, but the Winklevoss exchange (Gemini) is closely linked with the new futures contracts. And AFAIK there are no laws that would prevent someone from manipulating the price of bitcoin, painting the tape, or cornering the market. It is not a commodity.


BTC transacted 1.3$ billion in the last 24 hours. It might take a while, but it is not impossible to sell $3 billion of BTC.


----------



## Greyhound86

james4beach said:


> I looked into these futures a bit more, and I think the CBOE futures "settle" with an auction at the Gemini exchange. The Gemini exchange is owned by the Winklevoss twins, the guys who hold something like $3 billion of bitcoin between them.
> 
> It looks pretty obvious to me that the futures are a way for the Winklevoss to dump their bitcoin onto the public. Their wealth is trapped in bitcoin (which they can never dump using the regular bitcoin market), so they created their own exchange, and then helped create this contract to aid them in getting rid of their assets and realizing their wealth.
> 
> Futures and bitcoin are unregulated, so what could be happening is that Winklevoss & wealthy friends are manipulating the market price (painting the tape etc) and pushing the bitcoin price way up. Pump it big time, then bring the futures online. Get the excitement going so that the world starts buying up the futures.
> 
> Now they can sell some of that $3 billion in bitcoins to the public.


Sorry for a long response. Futures are complicated. 

I’m not defending the twins or their exchange or the futures market

But I don’t think they can get rid of the coins through the futures market. There is no physical way to settle the future contracts. The futures contracts are settled in cash based on the closing price of bitcoin on the Gemini exchange, not by delivery of the physical product. 

If I buy a futures contract for Wheat , for example, and hold the contract until expiry, the seller will contact me and ask where I want my Wheat stored. The seller can physically get rid of his Wheat that he has in store at the delivery point specified by the exchange running the futures market. 

This won’t happen under the bitcoin futures contract. If I buy some bitcoin futures contracts and hold them to expiry, no one will deliver me my bitcoin (or the password or whatever to access them). Instead my broker will either debit or credit my account in cash for the difference in the price I bought the contract for and what the closing price was. 

So given that, I don’t think the Twins can get rid of their coins through the futures market. There is no physical delivery upon settlement. They have to sell them through their own Gemini exchange or one of the other crypto exchanges. 

However the futures can be used to lock in a price.


----------



## BeautifulAngel

I found this video on YouTube about Bitcoin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHtilrc4zLQ


----------



## nathan79

I don't believe the Winklevii are planning on selling their coins. They have gone on record as predicting the market cap is going to surpass 1 trillion. Why would they dump their coins if they thought that? Perhaps they will sell a percentage of their holdings, but they don't need the futures market to do that. It would be fairly easy to make a script that places sell orders for smaller amounts of coins every hour over a period of days or weeks until they sold the amount they wanted to sell.


----------



## marina628

sags said:


> With 100,000 transactions waiting to be authorized, people have to bribe the miners with a higher fee. Low fee transactions don't get verified.
> 
> One guy wanted to sell $4500 worth of bitcoin. The fee was $1300. He turned it down so now he waits.
> 
> People have been waiting for a week. Imagine having to bid a high fee to have every debit transaction approved or having to hang around the store for a week.


I'm calling crap on this because I have sold $15,000 + of bitcoin in a single transaction just last week and my fee from blockchain was under $13.00 Every time I have moved my coins there is always 70k -100k in unconfirmed transactions and the longest I ever waited was 3-4 hours and that was about a year ago.Selling is easy to do with coinsquare ,here is my steps , go to blockchain or your walletofchoice and send to a coin square wallet ,convert your coins to CAD.They will hold your funds for 24 hours then after this time you can do the withdraw to your bank account.Local companies may fleece you but coin square charged me $4.00 both times I made my withdraws.


----------



## sags

Too soon Marina..........bitcoin is $17,020 and rising....................to da moon !


----------



## marina628

I receive bitcoin every month and gambling as in playing poker using bitcoin so for instance this week I won about 30k Canadian dollars ,I have an amount I am comfortable with keeping in cryptocurrencies when I exceed that amount I withdraw.


----------



## forrory1

marina628 said:


> I'm calling crap on this because I have sold $15,000 + of bitcoin in a single transaction just last week and my fee from blockchain was under $13.00 Every time I have moved my coins there is always 70k -100k in unconfirmed transactions and the longest I ever waited was 3-4 hours and that was about a year ago.Selling is easy to do with coinsquare ,here is my steps , go to blockchain or your walletofchoice and send to a coin square wallet ,convert your coins to CAD.They will hold your funds for 24 hours then after this time you can do the withdraw to your bank account.Local companies may fleece you but coin square charged me $4.00 both times I made my withdraws.


Yes I personally watched 2 friends both sell a few thousand worth of BTC on Friday. They both fully recouped their initial investments and kept all the remaining BTC.

I have noticed a lot of misinformation on this board. Main stream media is not where you want to be getting your "research from" "I heard this EXPERT say" is how it usually starts. CNBC had Roger Ver on last night... It was laughable. He was claiming $100+ fees while I had just sent a transaction for pennies and don't know anyone who was ever paid anymore over $25 for a transaction of the highest priority. 

Because you understand stocks and bonds does not mean you understand a new technology the world has never seen before. These EXERTS have been calling for a Bitcoin crash since bitcoin hit $2 lol Seem they are the same group of people who said the internet would only be used by pedophiles. 

The lighting network is now live on the TESTNET and MAINNET of Bitcoin in Alpha mode. This layer 2 technology allows instant transactions with insignificant fees and increased animosity and is said to be scaleable to millions of transactions/s. It is planned to be rolled out 1st quarter of 2018. Who would of thought software/technology could get better? 

Todays price of Bitcoin has these factors priced in by those who know. The price of stocks reflects futures earnings does it not? Interesting how people will not make that comparison but then go on to make apple to oranges comparisons by the bushels. How do you value monetary sovereignty?

I have yet to hear a good argument against the idea of separating money and governments. I'm confident this board can provide a few.

R


----------



## sags

Money won't be separated from government, because it is the government who guarantees the currency must be accepted as legal tender by everyone.

_Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." _

Society wouldn't function very well if there were a myriad of currencies used by the citizens, so government dictates the currency that is the legal tender.

By contrast, nobody has to accept bitcoins as legal tender.


----------



## forrory1

sags said:


> Money won't be separated from government, because it is the government who guarantees the currency must be accepted as legal tender by everyone.
> 
> _Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." _
> 
> Society wouldn't function very well if there were a myriad of currencies used by the citizens, so government dictates the currency that is the legal tender.
> 
> By contrast, nobody has to accept bitcoins as legal tender.


Maybe you missed the part about Bitcoin not having to ask for permission first. Uber, Airbnb (very successfully)... choose to ask for forgiveness then permission. Or maybe you miss that fact that the whole world is not government by the United States. Russia & China would like to see reserve currency that is not the USD. Japan already dicates bitcoin as legal currency. 

But please try again.

R


----------



## fatcat

forrory1 said:


> How do you value monetary sovereignty?
> 
> I have yet to hear a good argument against the idea of separating money and governments. I'm confident this board can provide a few.
> 
> R


money supply, controlled by a central bank is intimately tied to the economy of a nation state

this is exactly why britain didn't adopt the euro, they wanted to control their money supply


----------



## forrory1

fatcat said:


> money supply, controlled by a central bank is intimately tied to the economy of a nation state
> 
> this is exactly why britain didn't adopt the euro, they wanted to control their money supply


I do not doubt governments desire to control their own money supply. What I doubt is their ability control the economy using the money supply. I don't have to list all the examples where poor government decisions (or greed) have led to collapses also the pending collapse some users on here keep calling for. 

R


----------



## fatcat

forrory1 said:


> I do not doubt governments desire to control their own money supply. What I doubt is their ability control the economy using the money supply. I don't have to list all the examples where poor government decisions (or greed) have led to collapses also the pending collapse some users on here keep calling for.
> 
> R


i think you are concentrating on the occasional fallen tree and missing the fact that the forest is still standing ... independent-apolitical central banking works better than any alternative that i am aware of though it isn't perfect


----------



## nathan79

I could envision a future where people keep their savings in bitcoin and only exchange to CAD (or other national currency) when necessary. Stores don't have to accept bitcoin, but they will if they see that a lot of people are using it. It's similar to credit cards in that regard. Stores hate dealing with them -- they particularly hate the fees -- but they value their customers. Bitcoin will also have utility for micropayments once lightning network is live.

If you keep your cash in a chequing account, it's basically guaranteed to lose half of its value in 30 years. You can try to get savings rates that matches inflation, but that usually involves wasting your time chasing promotional savings rates. Even if you do manage to beat inflation, you still have to put up with the bank's rules and limitations on what you can do with your money. With bitcoin, you control your money. In 30 years it might be worth less, the same, or possibly a lot more.


----------



## fatcat

we are all talking about the bitcoin of 2018 ... the bitcoin of 2025 will be a different animal

it will be both more secure and much easier to use .... this is a solvable problem, 

remember dial up modems and getting on the internet in 1995 ? ... this is the same thing

bitcoin offers a way to move money ultra-fast, ultra-cheap and mostly privately

everyone who has any substantial amount of money wants these things

we are all sick of having banks and money conduits siphon off slices of our money when we want to deploy it and move it

bitcoin or a competitor, likely several competitors, will succeed because the market wants them to


----------



## sags

What value would bitcoins preserve if they have to be exchanged for dollars to purchase anything ? They could always be worth more or less dollars.

Looking at it from another angle.........who would be buying bitcoins if the number of dollars they are worth wasn't going up ?

People are buying bitcoins because of the dollars...........not the bitcoins.

When bitcoins can be transferred and then goods and services can be paid for in bitcoin.........it is revolutionary.

Right now......it is nothing but a complicated email transfer that still involves the banks because even the exchanges have bank accounts.


----------



## nathan79

Yes, right now it is difficult to value things in bitcoin due to the volatility, but I see no reason why that would always be the case. Volatility decreases with adoption. 

There is a paper on this subject. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2961405 It's a bit technical, but there is a graph of bitcoin's volatility on page 46.

The writer concludes


> However, the volatility levels have historically been trending downward
> and if Bitcoin were to follow the same trend as it has been for the previous six
> years, it would reach the volatility levels of fiat currencies approximately in
> 2019-2020. However, the absence of a central bank that acts as a minimizer of
> the systematic risk and a stabilizer of the exchange rate means that Bitcoin
> might never reach the volatility levels of stable fiat currencies. Nonetheless,
> volatility will surely approach the fiat levels when the traded daily volume
> is sufficient. If Bitcoin approaches the volatility levels of fiat currencies, it
> will satisfy the criteria of being a functioning currency and therefore, will be
> ready for mass adoption.


----------



## sags

It makes as much sense for bitcoins to be "worth" $400,000 as $40. People just conjure up what they think it is worth.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rfect-bubble-possible/?utm_term=.e3a0e0e64e68


----------



## nathan79

Frank Drebin said:


> You control your money? You are putting a lot of trust in the "hodl" model, are you not? You trust those 1000 wallets with control of your 40% of your currency/value? I'd rather lose 50% over 30 years (who does that anyways, you can get GIC's that basically pace inflation) over losing it in half a day or less.


How many of the 1000 wallets are actually exchange wallets holding bitcoins for thousands of different people? Anyway, how is that so much worse than fiat money, where millionaires and billionaires control the vast majority?

Some people would rather not lock their money in GIC's, or maybe they want the potential of increasing their money and they don't want to invest in stocks.


----------



## forrory1

Call it conjuring or free market. Fact is there are exchanges all over the world trading in many currencies and now even futures contracts on wall street and yet the price trend remains. Real people in the millions around the world are buying+trading+selling and spending bitcoin everyday and the trend towards mass adoption continues to grow ever faster after 9 years. Some stocks/ETFs don't even last that long.

What commodity/asset/store of value has ever exists which is finite in quantity yet the total supply is known quantity along with supply curve. It can not be counterfeited or controlled is immune to political pressure and can travel at the speed of light. Exists everyone and nowhere at the same time. And it's programmable. What is that worth?


R


----------



## sags

Having bitcoin transactions approved has turned into a bidding auction of who pays the highest fees. Pay up or sit and wait.

Poor system = transactions are NOT lined up by time date. They are lined up by the amount of fee paid.

So yea..........just hang out at the gas station, grocery store, coffee shop a few days until the transaction clears.........LOL.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7jd9za/that_feeling_when/


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> It makes as much sense for bitcoins to be "worth" $400,000 as $40. People just conjure up what they think it is worth.


It might get to $400,000 but there is a ceiling of sorts, looking at total market value. With a circulating supply of around 16,737,862 units, that would put total bitcoin market cap at around $7 trillion. The total value of all gold ever mined is $7.5 trillion. So that seems like it might be a practical maximum.

So perhaps the most that bitcoin could possibly increase is about 20x to 25x max from here. In other words the 70x increase that was seen in the last couple of years cannot be repeated.

Now it becomes a question of whether you're willing to risk money in the faint hope of 20x increase, when you might very likely lose 90% or more of your capital, potentially with big tax or other trouble along the way depending on how government regulates this.

Compare that to other high stakes bets you can make, such as buying out of the money call options on the stock market. You could for example buy a March 2019 call option on SPY at strike 305 for $1.60. If the US market goes up 20% over the next 15 months, then this call option will be worth at least $15 and probably much more.

That would be at least a 10x return, but with no tax/regulation danger, nor the danger of theft or other "exotic" problems such as the bitcoin network collapsing under a scaling problem, major flaw, schism, or government outlawing it due to rampant money laundering problems and use by terrorists.

As the bitcoin price keeps rising, it won't be long before its potential upside no longer creates a good risk/reward situation. That point is not far away.


----------



## 319905

^ My simple thinking ... along the rewards line of thinking ... when there's no longer an acceptable profit in it for the guys (I refuse to call them miners ... my grand dad was a miner) with the big machines to maintain the transactions (block chain) the whole thing will come to a halt. Valve/Steam where most of my PC games reside has stopped accepting bitcoin the reasons posted are transactions have become too expensive ... up to $20 they quote ... and the face value is just too volatile causing real headaches settling with customers. I'll still stick with eventually there'll be no money to be made in maintaining the transactions ... but humans are a crafty bunch so you never know ...


----------



## sags

Is it too late for us to get rich the easy way by picking up a few bitcoins ?

Perhaps not.....If every satoshi becomes worth $1.......a bitcoin would be worth $100,000,000.

A couple of those and everything would be...............alright, alright, alright.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

forrory1 said:


> Fact is there are exchanges all over the world trading in many currencies and now even futures contracts on wall street and yet the price trend remains. Real people in the millions around the world are buying+trading+selling and spending bitcoin everyday and the trend towards mass adoption continues to grow ever faster after 9 years.


If all these 'real people' jump off a bridge, should we all follow?

Just because the mass is following, it doesn't make them wiser.


----------



## forrory1

Mortgage u/w said:


> If all these 'real people' jump off a bridge, should we all follow?
> 
> Just because the mass is following, it doesn't make them wiser.


Jumping off a bridge or securing their life savings. Depends on personal situations I guess.

I'm still waiting for the big crash so I can buy in.

R


----------



## Mortgage u/w

forrory1 said:


> Jumping off a bridge or securing their life savings. Depends on personal situations I guess.
> 
> I'm still waiting for the big crash so I can buy in.
> 
> R


You can gamble some of your money if you want - there is no harm in that, but I wouldn't classify bitcoin as a 'securing life savings' vehicle.


----------



## forrory1

Mortgage u/w said:


> You can gamble some of your money if you want - there is no harm in that, but I wouldn't classify bitcoin as a 'securing life savings' vehicle.


Just hope/pray your government doesn't turn on you then. Real people around the world right now... this is their only option. Nice we can use it to speculate. 

This technology goes far beyond speculation and avoiding taxes. Billions of real people don't have access to banking. Try securing your life saving then, in your mud hut.

R


----------



## FI40

Greyhound86 said:


> Sorry for a long response. Futures are complicated.
> 
> I’m not defending the twins or their exchange or the futures market
> 
> But I don’t think they can get rid of the coins through the futures market. There is no physical way to settle the future contracts. The futures contracts are settled in cash based on the closing price of bitcoin on the Gemini exchange, not by delivery of the physical product.
> 
> If I buy a futures contract for Wheat , for example, and hold the contract until expiry, the seller will contact me and ask where I want my Wheat stored. The seller can physically get rid of his Wheat that he has in store at the delivery point specified by the exchange running the futures market.
> 
> This won’t happen under the bitcoin futures contract. If I buy some bitcoin futures contracts and hold them to expiry, no one will deliver me my bitcoin (or the password or whatever to access them). Instead my broker will either debit or credit my account in cash for the difference in the price I bought the contract for and what the closing price was.
> 
> So given that, I don’t think the Twins can get rid of their coins through the futures market. There is no physical delivery upon settlement. They have to sell them through their own Gemini exchange or one of the other crypto exchanges.
> 
> However the futures can be used to lock in a price.


Just want to mention, if I was a Winklevoss and had zero scruples this is what I would do: try to track the trading volume/activity using all that juicy exchange data they have and determine when the current craze is starting to falter a bit or slow down, then sell hard into their exchange and others while simultaneously shorting a ton of BTC contracts on CBOE. Very risky strategy as the market cap of bitcoin is much larger than their stake, but the potential rewards are enormous as they could precipitate a hefty correction or crash. They would liquidate a lot of their spot position at fairly high prices and then afterward settle up on massively lucrative futures positions.

But if they own it not for speculation reasons or don't want to be accused of manipulating it they would never do this. It's pretty far fetched.


----------



## james4beach

They (Winklevoss) would be lunatics to not at least liquidate $1 billion of their ~ $3 billion exposure. Make no mistake, they're already selling into the strength. Just a question of how hard they're selling.


----------



## nathan79

Maybe they are lunatics then, I'm pretty sure they are long term holders (they've said so multiple times).

I'm pretty sure they still have over 50 million dollars, so it's not like they're hurting for money.


----------



## nobleea

People seem to be confusing the ability of BTC (or any other crypto) to be a useful currency with what it's worth.
Bitcoin would be just as useful as a currency at 25cents per bitcoin as it would be at 25K/BTC.

The fact that the price keeps on rising on speculative investment means nothing for its ability to be a useful currency. In fact, it's the exact opposite.


----------



## TomB16

I work in a huge organization. Every third cube or office I walk past, I hear "blah, blah, blah... BitCoin... blah, blah, blah...."

Everyone is getting rich quick off BitCoin. Well, everyone except me. lol!


----------



## fatcat

nobleea said:


> People seem to be confusing the ability of BTC (or any other crypto) to be a useful currency with what it's worth.
> Bitcoin would be just as useful as a currency at 25cents per bitcoin as it would be at 25K/BTC.
> 
> The fact that the price keeps on rising on speculative investment means nothing for its ability to be a useful currency. In fact, it's the exact opposite.


please explain ... the volatility of btc makes it unfit to be a viable currency ... it certainly has the potential but no more than many other cryptos

why would you use it as an actual currency if it rising to dizzying heights, by definition, a currency must be in circulation and though plenty of places take bitcoin, i suspect few are spending relative to the amount in circulation



> A currency, in the most specific use of the word, refers to money in any form when in actual use or circulation as a medium of exchange,


----------



## nathan79

nobleea said:


> People seem to be confusing the ability of BTC (or any other crypto) to be a useful currency with what it's worth.
> Bitcoin would be just as useful as a currency at 25cents per bitcoin as it would be at 25K/BTC.
> 
> The fact that the price keeps on rising on speculative investment means nothing for its ability to be a useful currency. In fact, it's the exact opposite.


In order to be a currency it must have the capacity to transfer value. If a bitcoin was only worth 25 cents, there would not be enough bitcoin supply to serve a large economy.

Let's say the average person carries $100 CAD in their wallet... converted to bitcoins at 25 cents equals 400 bitcoins. There are only about 17 million bitcoins in existence so far. To calculate the number of users, we take the 17 million and divide by 400, which equals 42,500 -- the population of a small town.

The only way to create more capacity, aside from increasing the value, is to create more bitcoins. The supply of bitcoins is capped at 21,000,000, so the value of each coin will necessarily have to increase if it's to become a widely used currency.


----------



## sags

Bitcoins joins the other crazy stuff.........tulips, south sea trading company, dot com frenzy, cabbage patch dolls, comic books and sports cards, and pet rocks.


----------



## Butters

I think the value of bitcoin lies in the devices to mine it.

You can use bitcoin to purchase many things... inducing the devices to mine it. So people are mining it, then buying better components and mining more, etc...

It's reached the point where you need the best of the best to mine it, and hope your power consumption doesn't pull down your profits.


But given that, the people that have bitcoins aren't really selling it, more so re-investing to the point where they can't drip it anymore, and there's no new products to re-invest it. So they are sitting on it... The majority of coins are held by a select few. And I'd also bet that many of the bitcoins have lost their passwords.

In terms of global wealth bitcoin is still a pixel on your screen compared to real estate, gold, and other government backed currencies.


----------



## forrory1

james4beach said:


> They (Winklevoss) would be lunatics to not at least liquidate $1 billion of their ~ $3 billion exposure. Make no mistake, they're already selling into the strength. Just a question of how hard they're selling.


On Gdax exchange (Coinbase) I have seen multiple times now a single huge sell order of 1000 BTC @ $17250 ($17.2 Million USD) and the latest one of 1250 BTC get posted and slowly bought up over the course of hours. I haven't check other exchanges but others agree this seems like a pattern.

There is also an early adopter on Reddit handing out 5000+ BTC to any registered charity posted by users which he then has vetted. 

Made a comment here yesterday... then this article was posted.
https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2017/12/13/world/americas/ap-lt-venezuela-bitcoin-boom.html

R


----------



## new dog

Any business that takes bitcoin in return for goods and services at this point should stop taking them. The risk to their business is to great and they should be accepting only normal sorts of payments going forward.


----------



## forrory1

new dog said:


> Any business that takes bitcoin in return for goods and services at this point should stop taking them. The risk to their business is to great and they should be accepting only normal sorts of payments going forward.


That is a good idea from a risk point of view. Considering most business that do accept Bitcoin it does not account for a high % of their income. 

In the past businesses which accepted Bitcoin often didn't bother convert back to $s for the reasons I mentioned about. Reports online from these business expressing how happy they are as price climbs. 

Important to note that many business which do accept Bitcoin do so through a service like Bitpay. The never have a currency risk as Bitpay converts their sales to $ at transaction time.

R


----------



## new dog

So they are really just doing a normal payment as the bitcoin is accepted and changed.

However even with the quick change is there still a chance that a big sudden drop in bitcoin could result in far less cash being received as the business thought they would get? As well isn't there high fees for changing bitcoins to cash? How about Bitpay itself could it be caught in some sort of hack causing problems for the exchange?


----------



## Almosretired13

Who is investing in Bitcoin in this forum, what do you think about the future of cryptocurrency ?

Almo


----------



## spdr1812

Went on Coinbase and bought the same small amount of BT, ET, and LT .. not enough to even bat an eye if went to 0 but something to get me interested and watching the action . Couple of newbie questions after all this serious talk ..
- looks to me like my sad fractions of coins are in a wallet already ? havent configure the "vault" yet .. are they safe , and whats the vault for .
- not looking to retire next week but if i did wanted to cash out, how do i do so ?
- i dont see any bid/ask optins , is it always market price ?

I'm actually leaning towards some of the more legitimate blockchain companies as far as investment , but figured get some crypto to see how it works .


----------



## Greyhound86

The bitcoin ETF GBTC is trading at a 90% premium to its underlying value...Crazy

At one point last week it was trading at a 17% premium to NAV


----------



## nathan79

Greyhound86 said:


> The bitcoin ETF GBTC is trading at a 90% premium to its underlying value...Crazy
> 
> At one point last week it was trading at a 17% premium to NAV


Can you put that in a TFSA? If one was extremely bullish, there could be some tax savings in the event Bitcoin hit 100K or something. Pretty crazy, though. And of course, if Bitcoin drops you lose that contribution room.

Edit: not even sure the tax savings at 100K would be worth this.


----------



## marina628

I need to share my pain with you guys , on March 27 I had 61.668 Bitcoin and I sold almost half for $49951.08 between May 27 and June 3 and I felt like I did great since my average cost was under $700.I have done the math so many times on the what ifs . I sold off more when it hit 4k in September , 9.6 coins to be exact .So i figure I lost over 1 million USD in past 6 months if I hung on ,for that reason I am buying back $200 a week of bitcoin til day I die


----------



## nathan79

marina628 said:


> I need to share my pain with you guys , on March 27 I had 61.668 Bitcoin and I sold almost half for $49951.08 between May 27 and June 3 and I felt like I did great since my average cost was under $700.I have done the math so many times on the what ifs . I sold off more when it hit 4k in September , 9.6 coins to be exact .So i figure I lost over 1 million USD in past 6 months if I hung on ,for that reason I am buying back $200 a week of bitcoin til day I die


I did something similar, though not as bad... I sold 20 BCH (Bitcoin Cash) when they were worth $400. They're up to $2700 as of a few minutes ago. That's $46,000 I left on the table (Yeah, I know that's pocket change compared to a million bucks.)

For all of the time I've spent reading charts and trading various alt coins, I'd be better off if I'd just held my BTC and BCH. I still haven't touched my BTG (Bitcoin Gold) from the recent fork.

By the way, have you claimed your BCH or BTG yet?


----------



## andrewf

Greyhound86 said:


> The bitcoin ETF GBTC is trading at a 90% premium to its underlying value...Crazy
> 
> At one point last week it was trading at a 17% premium to NAV


Arbitrage opportunity (buy bitcoin, short this fund)?


----------



## james4beach

marina628 said:


> I need to share my pain with you guys , on March 27 I had 61.668 Bitcoin and I sold almost half for $49951.08 between May 27 and June 3 and I felt like I did great since my average cost was under $700.I have done the math so many times on the what ifs . I sold off more when it hit 4k in September , 9.6 coins to be exact .So i figure I lost over 1 million USD in past 6 months if I hung on ,for that reason I am buying back $200 a week of bitcoin til day I die


Marina, don't feel bad. To begin with, you had a PROFIT and any speculator who makes a profit on a speculation/gamble is already a winner.

I have one coworker who once owned, and then lost (due to MtGox theft) a huge number of bitcoins. He "would have" had millions of $ if he still owned them today. I've been wondering if he's incredibly angry or upset that he "lost" millions of $, but it doesn't seem to bother him much. He realizes that he's been gambling on this, and he's happy to have booked a profit at all. He says it's a gamble and he got lucky, the price went up, but also had some misfortune along the way.

Think of this... you also didn't buy AMZN for $16, or CCL.B for $3. It happens and there are endless "opportunities" that all of us missed out on. _In hindsight_.


----------



## marina628

Think of this... you also didn't buy AMZN for $16, or CCL.B for $3. It happens and there are endless "opportunities" that all of us missed out on. _In hindsight_.[/QUOTE]
Nope $10,000 cad got me 7 shares of Amazon last year LOL .


----------



## indexxx

nathan79 said:


> Can you put that in a TFSA? If one was extremely bullish, there could be some tax savings in the event Bitcoin hit 100K or something. Pretty crazy, though. And of course, if Bitcoin drops you lose that contribution room.
> 
> Edit: not even sure the tax savings at 100K would be worth this.


No, it's traded on the pink sheets. Not eligible to hold in a registered account. Went up over $700 a share today- over 28%. Add that to the gain on Friday of around $300 and that's a grand in two trading days. Insane.


----------



## accord1999

james4beach said:


> I have one coworker who once owned, and then lost (due to MtGox theft) a huge number of bitcoins. He "would have" had millions of $ if he still owned them today. I've been wondering if he's incredibly angry or upset that he "lost" millions of $, but it doesn't seem to bother him much. He realizes that he's been gambling on this, and he's happy to have booked a profit at all. He says it's a gamble and he got lucky, the price went up, but also had some misfortune along the way.


The MtGox bankruptcy is still an ongoing case, made vastly more interesting by the fact that MtGox actually still has 202,000 bitcoins, now worth several billion dollars and whether the creditors have a claim to all of it, or just the amount that makes them whole in yen equivalent value of their bitcoin balances at the time of the bankruptcy.

http://fortune.com/2017/12/13/bitcoin-mtgox-bankruptcy-creditors/


----------



## james4beach

accord1999 said:


> The MtGox bankruptcy is still an ongoing case, made vastly more interesting by the fact that MtGox actually still has 202,000 bitcoins, now worth several billion dollars and whether the creditors have a claim to all of it, or just the amount that makes them whole in yen equivalent value of their bitcoin balances at the time of the bankruptcy.
> 
> http://fortune.com/2017/12/13/bitcoin-mtgox-bankruptcy-creditors/


Oh wow, _that is_ interesting. I had no idea so many coins were still in play. What a freaking nightmare.


----------



## sags

As Warren Buffet says........people clamoring to get into bitcoin is driving up the price. Think of what happens to the price when they all want to sell.


----------



## james4beach

Bitcoin Cash has been adopted by Coinbase today, causing the price to soar. BCH was 2,200 just 24 hours ago and is now trading at 9,500 on GDAX for a more-than-4x increase in a single day.

The price history on GDAX shows severe illiquidity and volatility. Look at these crazy jumps! Down 30% for one trade, then up 50% for another small trade *all within the same one second* of trading. Screen shot attached.


----------



## Oldroe

Marina could you expand on how you win bitcoin playing poker.

Seems to me you are paying real money to win bitcoin. Makes my hair stand up when they want real money and pay fake money.


----------



## spdr1812

Can you do limit buys on Coinbase , i dont see the option , just market price orders ?


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Looks like buying/selling crytocurrency is the modern form of gambling.....


----------



## sags

Mt. Gox was originally an online gaming site that offered tokens for extended play.


----------



## nathan79

james4beach said:


> Bitcoin Cash has been adopted by Coinbase today, causing the price to soar. BCH was 2,200 just 24 hours ago and is now trading at 9,500 on GDAX for a more-than-4x increase in a single day.
> 
> The price history on GDAX shows severe illiquidity and volatility. Look at these crazy jumps! Down 30% for one trade, then up 50% for another small trade *all within the same one second* of trading. Screen shot attached.
> 
> View attachment 17282


It originally wasn't going to be offered until January. There have been some accusations of insider trading by people who knew about the early roll out. 

In any case, Bitcoin Cash has been heavily manipulated from the beginning. It doesn't help that its spokesman Roger Ver is willfully deceptive, claiming it's the "real" Bitcoin. A lot of new users are even conned into believing that bitcoin.com is the official site of bitcoin. (Bitcoin technically has no "official" site, but the open source project is on bitcoin.org.)

Bitcoin Cash certainly has utility, but so do a plethora of other coins. Litecoin is actually faster, has less centralization/manipulation, and a better dev team. Bitcoin Cash is really just capitalizing on the bitcoin name.

Bitcoin Cash only hit $3,600 yesterday on Poloniex, though it's been as high as $4,211 this morning. Meanwhile Bitcoin is trading at $16,750 after briefly falling to $15,550 yesterday.


----------



## sags

The shepherds are shearing the sheep...........LOL.


----------



## ian

Reminds me of Bre-EX and a few others. The winners will be those who get in and get out quickly with some profit.


----------



## Frank Drebin

spdr1812 said:


> Can you do limit buys on Coinbase , i dont see the option , just market price orders ?


Before buying, make sure you have an account you can transfer to to sell. Coinbase doesn't allow selling in Canada (imagine that!).

AFAIK its just market orders with insanely high fees. Perfect for newbs to throw some money into the market.


----------



## marina628

Oldroe said:


> Marina could you expand on how you win bitcoin playing poker.
> 
> Seems to me you are paying real money to win bitcoin. Makes my hair stand up when they want real money and pay fake money.


Been playing real money Poker online since 2004 .


----------



## spdr1812

Frank Drebin said:


> Before buying, make sure you have an account you can transfer to to sell. Coinbase doesn't allow selling in Canada (imagine that!).
> 
> AFAIK its just market orders with insanely high fees. Perfect for newbs to throw some money into the market.


Thanks for info , thats the thing i didnt know about before buying on CB , the selling issue . The fees are fine , less than my individual trades on Inv Edge so that wasnt an issue for me .

So how can i sell cause i sure dont want to fully ride this s#$%show out forever ...


----------



## Oldroe

I know you have been playing successful for years. What I don't understand is CAD to play tournament and win bitcoin.?


----------



## TomB16

fatcat said:


> as to bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, the advantages are obvious, frictionless, virtually free and lightning fast exchange of currencies across all global boundaries with complete privacy and the ability to virtually become your own banker without the hassle of actual currency ... unlike paypal, bank e-transfer and things like square it’s a peer to peer currency which requires no intermediary


If BitCoin had been around in 2000, there would be no PayPal.


----------



## sags

Thus far 99% of all bitcoin transactions is either buying or selling them. That is a pretty useless activity considering the energy consumption involved.

The price will rise as long as people are willing to pay. When bitcoins stop going up and people start to unload..........KABOOM.


----------



## sags

The price has fallen a bit and people are waiting to see what happens with transaction times and fees.

It is a ridiculous situation right now with 3-4 hour waits and very high fees. Bitcoin's share of the market is falling as people use other coins.


----------



## Frank Drebin

spdr1812 said:


> Thanks for info , thats the thing i didnt know about before buying on CB , the selling issue . The fees are fine , less than my individual trades on Inv Edge so that wasnt an issue for me .
> 
> So how can i sell cause i sure dont want to fully ride this s#$%show out forever ...


I have a quadrigacx account and a kraken account, which both allow selling to USD. Kraken took me about 3-4 days to get approval before I could transfer my BTC over and then sell to USD.

I'm with sags on this, the whole thing is ridiculous but I had to dip my toes in ($250) out of morbid curiosity.

Or, find a good friend with a selling account that you can transfer your BTC to and he/she can sell for you. Capital gains might be a thing there. A lot more knowledgeable posters here than me on the subject for sure. But I still can't believe you can only buy not sell on coinbase. Sketchy as all hell if you ask me.


----------



## Frank Drebin

sags said:


> The price has fallen a bit and people are waiting to see what happens with transaction times and fees.
> 
> It is a ridiculous situation right now with 3-4 hour waits and very high fees. Bitcoin's share of the market is falling as people use other coins.


Dogecoin has tripled in the last week.

Dogecoin!


----------



## Frank Drebin

I didn't have a lot of skin in the game back in 09 but I reckon the discipline required not to sell when the market is crashing has to be similar to the discipline required to stay away from cryptos when gains are everywhere.


----------



## sags

After touching $20,000 days ago, bitcoins have lost more than $4000 in value and the slide slowly continues.

As it tumbles further down, more people are involved in "losing" money and start to panic. 

Once panic selling starts the exits will fill quickly. These exchanges can't handle much traffic, so prices could drop hundreds or thousands of dollars while waiting in the queue.

The question soon becomes..........how much money is one willing to lose to sell at any cost.


----------



## nathan79

Frank Drebin said:


> I didn't have a lot of skin in the game back in 09 but I reckon the discipline required not to sell when the market is crashing has to be similar to the discipline required to stay away from cryptos when gains are everywhere.


I keep 90% of my coins offline, so it's easier to maintain discipline. Whenever I think "maybe I should sell a few", I usually reconsider before I actually follow through. Been involved since 2011.


----------



## nathan79

sags said:


> After touching $20,000 days ago, bitcoins have lost more than $4000 in value and the slide slowly continues.
> 
> As it tumbles further down, more people are involved in "losing" money and start to panic.
> 
> Once panic selling starts the exits will fill quickly. These exchanges can't handle much traffic, so prices could drop hundreds or thousands of dollars while waiting in the queue.
> 
> The question soon becomes..........how much money is one willing to lose to sell at any cost.


Meanwhile, the long term holders are waiting for the dip and swooping in to pick the discounted coins. I predict that a month from now the price will be back above 18K.


----------



## Frank Drebin

nathan79 said:


> I keep 90% of my coins offline, so it's easier to maintain discipline. Whenever I think "maybe I should sell a few", I usually reconsider before I actually follow through. Been involved since 2011.


Good for you, your discipline has paid off so far. I think I heard about bitcoin back in 13 or 14. Thought the same thing about it then as I do now. Had I been a bit more open minded I'd probably have a few more dollars to my name right now. I know I would have never held from $600 to $20k though, I just don't believe in it like most of the holders do.

Dont you think this past years bubble where it essentially went mainstream will be harmful to it's reputation and acceptance? If this thing doesn't continue on it's skyward trajectory there are going to be a lot of ma's and pa's dumping it and never coming back, and the institutional money will never play a game that they can't win, as the whales in the crypto world have already been established.


Idk, to me this seems like peak coin. Maybe it will hit $100k, I doubt it but who knows.


----------



## nathan79

Frank Drebin said:


> Good for you, your discipline has paid off so far. I think I heard about bitcoin back in 13 or 14. Thought the same thing about it then as I do now. Had I been a bit more open minded I'd probably have a few more dollars to my name right now. I know I would have never held from $600 to $20k though, I just don't believe in it like most of the holders do.
> 
> Dont you think this past years bubble where it essentially went mainstream will be harmful to it's reputation and acceptance? If this thing doesn't continue on it's skyward trajectory there are going to be a lot of ma's and pa's dumping it and never coming back, and the institutional money will never play a game that they can't win, as the whales in the crypto world have already been established.
> 
> 
> Idk, to me this seems like peak coin. Maybe it will hit $100k, I doubt it but who knows.


Is it really mainstream? It definitely seems that way to us because we're paying attention, but I don't know anyone in real life who actually owns any. I agree that some people will jump ship, but others will enter to take their place, and some will regret jumping ship and re-enter. It's hard to pin exact numbers on this kind of thing.

I really think the technology is still in its infancy. I'm waiting to see what happens next year with scaling, the Lightning Network in particular. If scaling issues are solved, there could be a huge rally. I don't know about 100K, but if it eventually becomes widely usable, I wouldn't write it off.


----------



## Frank Drebin

nathan79 said:


> Is it really mainstream? It definitely seems that way to us because we're paying attention, but I don't know anyone in real life who actually owns any. I agree that some people will jump ship, but others will enter to take their place, and some will regret jumping ship and re-enter. It's hard to pin exact numbers on this kind of thing.
> 
> I really think the technology is still in its infancy. I'm waiting to see what happens next year with scaling, the Lightning Network in particular. If scaling issues are solved, there could be a huge rally. I don't know about 100K, but if it eventually becomes widely usable, I wouldn't write it off.


Its more mainstream then it's ever been. Anyone can buy ETH, BTC or LTC with ease (providing they can get approval through coinbase or similar). The bitcoin ticker is scrolling along beside CAD-USD on yahoo finance. I mean, its not being sold as an option to mutual funds by your neighborhood banker, but anyone who pays attention to the financial markets knows its a thing, and how to at least buy it.

Its the buzz where I work. The guy who lost $100k on sure thing investment scam a decade ago was talking about throwing $20 grand into Bitcoin. Or Litecoin. Or Ethereum. He wasn't sure. The signs are all there. There is dumb money in the market.

I want to make this clear - I'm not mad or jealous of anyone who got in early on this. In fact I'm envious of your ability to spot something like this so early and presumably stake a decent investment into it, and hopefully I can learn from this whole crypto thing to benefit myself the next time something big like this comes around. I do think its foolish not to take profits here though.

The risk-reward ratio is just waay out of whack for me. It might double or triple from here, it may also drop down to a grand or less. But I'm a guy who will probably never own an individual stock in my life - my risk tolerance is just low. I hate losing money.


----------



## jimmiegr

*Bitcoin will go up again*

I'm sure Bitcoin will go up again in less than a month


----------



## sags

Bitcoins aren't what they were envisioned though. A few mining farms in China control the hashrate and therefore control bitcoins.

Exchanges shouldn't even exist in a peer to peer system. They have become the central banks of bitcoin and make all the rules, charge whatever fees they want........not good.


----------



## sags

North Korea hacked the South Korean exchange Youbits. They are gathering bitcoins to spend anonymously.

Other governments are watching and it might well spell the end of bitcoins. Terrorist organizations are not going to be allowed a method of moving money anonymously.


----------



## james4beach

I just bought some bitcoin at 15,390 USD... net fees worked out to 4.5%.

_Pulls up a chair to the casino table_


----------



## new dog

I think since the futures just started there will probably some sort of pump and dump from here so it will probably pay off in the short term James.


----------



## 319905

james4beach said:


> I just bought some bitcoin at 15,390 USD... net fees worked out to 4.5%.
> 
> _Pulls up a chair to the casino table_


A lot of red out there at the moment ... https://coinmarketcap.com/all/views/all/ ... (can't help but take a look when I pause XCOM2 WOTC on my way to the kitchen for another CC and water). And then there's the more timely ... https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/?symbol=BTC.CB= ... for BTC, ETH, ... fwiw. Ok, back to battling the aliens ...


----------



## nathan79

Frank Drebin said:


> Its more mainstream then it's ever been. Anyone can buy ETH, BTC or LTC with ease (providing they can get approval through coinbase or similar). The bitcoin ticker is scrolling along beside CAD-USD on yahoo finance. I mean, its not being sold as an option to mutual funds by your neighborhood banker, but anyone who pays attention to the financial markets knows its a thing, and how to at least buy it.
> 
> Its the buzz where I work. The guy who lost $100k on sure thing investment scam a decade ago was talking about throwing $20 grand into Bitcoin. Or Litecoin. Or Ethereum. He wasn't sure. The signs are all there. There is dumb money in the market.
> 
> I want to make this clear - I'm not mad or jealous of anyone who got in early on this. In fact I'm envious of your ability to spot something like this so early and presumably stake a decent investment into it, and hopefully I can learn from this whole crypto thing to benefit myself the next time something big like this comes around. I do think its foolish not to take profits here though.
> 
> The risk-reward ratio is just waay out of whack for me. It might double or triple from here, it may also drop down to a grand or less. But I'm a guy who will probably never own an individual stock in my life - my risk tolerance is just low. I hate losing money.


I respect your position, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that it's mainstream.

In my view, Bitcoin is where the internet was in about 1995, shortly after the world wide web was developed. Most people had heard about it back then, but only about 14% of people had actually used it. It had only recently stopped being the sole domain of geeks. You still had to use a dial-up modem, so it was incredibly slow. You couldn't download large files, watch videos, or do most of the things we take for granted today. It was not until around 2000 that the internet surpassed 50% adoption. Even then, most people still used dial-up, and there was no YouTube or social media.

Most technologies follow similar adoption curves. Think about television, cell phones, and video games. We might still be five years away from Bitcoin (and cryptocurrencies in general) becoming a mainstream thing. It could happen more quickly or more slowly, since there are a lot of variables involved. Of course, I could be wrong... not saying I have a crystal ball.


----------



## spdr1812

Frank Drebin said:


> I have a quadrigacx account and a kraken account, which both allow selling to USD. Kraken took me about 3-4 days to get approval before I could transfer my BTC over and then sell to USD.
> 
> I'm with sags on this, the whole thing is ridiculous but I had to dip my toes in ($250) out of morbid curiosity.
> 
> Or, find a good friend with a selling account that you can transfer your BTC to and he/she can sell for you. Capital gains might be a thing there. A lot more knowledgeable posters here than me on the subject for sure. But I still can't believe you can only buy not sell on coinbase. Sketchy as all hell if you ask me.


Thanks for the reply Frank , any input helps


----------



## nathan79

Most crypto's seeing double digit corrections today, except for Ripple which is up more than 20%. Bitcoin off 16% today, and 28% off Sunday's all-time high. That seems like a lot, but Bitcoin has been much more volatile historically.

Bitcoin Cash one of the biggest losers, down at least 40% since yesterday's all time high (and this is supposed to be superior to Bitcoin -- lol).


----------



## james4beach

rikk2 said:


> A lot of red out there at the moment ... https://coinmarketcap.com/all/views/all/ ... (can't help but take a look when I pause XCOM2 WOTC on my way to the kitchen for another CC and water). And then there's the more timely ... https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/?symbol=BTC.CB= ... for BTC, ETH, ... fwiw. Ok, back to battling the aliens ...


Omg my bitcoin investment is crashing! Went as low as 13,000. I think I've lost $10 so far (ten dollars).

Personally I'd love to see a good crash so this thing can wipe out all the weak hands and latecomers, so we can see where it's really going to go.


----------



## Ihatetaxes

james4beach said:


> Omg my bitcoin investment is crashing! Went as low as 13,000. I think I've lost $10 so far (ten dollars).


So you bought less than $100 worth?


----------



## hboy54

james4beach said:


> I just bought some bitcoin at 15,390 USD... net fees worked out to 4.5%.
> 
> _Pulls up a chair to the casino table_


This is too funny. James see me as the ultimate gambler with my high stock asset allocation.

My wife and I actually went to Casino Rama the other week. The bus and buffet for $12 deal. I was bored by 15 minutes after lunch, but my wife did manage to gamble away a whole $9 LOL.

The truth is that I am as far away from being a gambler as is likely possible. Some, like James, see gambling where there is any chance of loss. I see gambling when the expected value of an adventure is under unity. My stock adventures have EV of well over unity.

Hboy54


----------



## sags

$11.900 now and dropping. Big quantities are being offered for sale and it takes a lot of sales to gobble them up.....so the whales are selling to the minnows.


----------



## Frank Drebin

Damn. I didn't think it would happen so soon. Apparently Mr. Eatmyowndick has been tweeting a "coin of the day" which would result in a 20%-30% bump go no other reason than his tweet. Bubble?

It's "burst-coin" today if anyone is interested (serious). I'm not sure of he's aware of the irony.


----------



## FI40

sags said:


> $11.900 now and dropping. Big quantities are being offered for sale and it takes a lot of sales to gobble them up.....so the whales are selling to the minnows.


Just curious is there a good way to see something like the level 2 quotes I see for stocks on the exchange, with the bid/offer and quantity?


----------



## sags

There is this one.........and there are more exchanges listed across the top of the website.........coinbase, kraken etc.

http://bitcointicker.co/


----------



## nathan79

FI40 said:


> Just curious is there a good way to see something like the level 2 quotes I see for stocks on the exchange, with the bid/offer and quantity?


https://poloniex.com/exchange#usdt_btc

Scroll down the page and you can see buy/sell orders & market depth.


----------



## zylon

I have no interest in owning, or even researching bitcoin or othercoin.

But I seriously hope that many people, either young or old, make thousands and millions in this adventure.
Then, I hope they pay taxes on the gains.

Have heard the theory that the reason USA did so swimmingly during the Clintoon era was because of all the tax revenue flowing in from dotcom profits. Don't know how factual that is, but sounds good to me.

Wishing all *coin* investors a top-tax-bracket-year 2017, 18 and beyond.


----------



## marina628

It is a buying day for all coins today


----------



## nathan79

^ I expect a lot of people are trying to get money onto exchanges so they can buy. If you already had money on the exchange then you're ahead of the crowd. Should see a larger increase in prices in a few days as the bulk of that money flows in.


----------



## jargey3000

marina628 said:


> It is a buying day for all coins today


ME?.... I'm going _ALL IN!_ on this one! This is the BIG ONE 'LIZABETH!..... will hit $50000 in '18!!!


----------



## jargey3000

marina628 said:


> I have some only because I was owed some money by a program who will only pay that way and every month they send me 1-2 coins since May 12016.Definitely not something I recommend for many people and if I didn't gamble I certainly would not have any.I have a feeling it will go in the 700 dollar range sooner than later and not buying into the hype it will be 2k or more in a year or so.


...above quote on this thread...from January of this year...


----------



## jargey3000

question: can you actually hold a bitcoin in your hand...like you can a loonie or a greenback? (I'm serious here)


----------



## nathan79

^ Yes, back when the value was lower you could buy physical ones as collectibles. Look up Casascius Bitcoin on eBay... highly collectible now, especially "loaded" ones (most were redeemed).


----------



## Thal81

Bitcoin never cease to entertain. The crash will just intensify, since those who bought recently are the casual investors who did so based on media hype, and they will sell in panic at a loss. Imagine if you bought at 19k USD last week... ouch


----------



## Thal81

For those who think today's buying day... Please remember that the price of bitcoin is based on nothing but rarity and hype. There's no company making tangible products or contributing to the economy in some way behind this asset. The price could still drop to 0 because it's all vaporware... literally. All it takes is one good hack or one first world country to ban it, then it will quickly be over.


----------



## james4beach

Ihatetaxes said:


> So you bought less than $100 worth?


Yes, I bought 100 CAD worth. I want to experiment with sending the bitcoin to my own wallet and storing it in paper/hardcopy form.


----------



## james4beach

FI40 said:


> Just curious is there a good way to see something like the level 2 quotes I see for stocks on the exchange, with the bid/offer and quantity?


Yes, at GDAX. You can even see it without logging in, just go to the GDAX web site and navigate to one of the pairs such as BTC/USD.

On the left you will see the order book, the buy (bottom) and sell (top) orders lined up.


----------



## james4beach

lol Coinbase posted this notice: "Due to today's high traffic, buys and sells may be temporarily offline. We're working on restoring full availability as soon as possible."

Now I'm down $16


----------



## new dog

There should be a nice bounce back rally at some point if you have the guts to play it. There should be a lot of people who were looking for a nice correction in order to get in but it will probably be like most bubbles and it will continue the crash after they have got in.

However as I said above we do have that futures thing to consider so the gamers will be in full force to play this.


----------



## Frank Drebin

james4beach said:


> lol Coinbase posted this notice: "Due to today's high traffic, buys and sells may be temporarily offline. We're working on restoring full availability as soon as possible."
> 
> Now I'm down $16


You'll be down another $20 or so if you decide to move that bitcoin to another wallet.


----------



## james4beach

Frank Drebin said:


> You'll be down another $20 or so if you decide to move that bitcoin to another wallet.


Not from what I've read. It's free to transfer BTC from Coinbase to GDAX, and then free to send to a private wallet
https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinBeg...x/how_much_does_it_cost_to_send_bitcoin_from/


----------



## james4beach

Frank Drebin said:


> You'll be down another $20 or so if you decide to move that bitcoin to another wallet.


Wow, with the exception of free internal coinbase/GDAX transfers, you're right ... these transfer fees are insanely high!

As an experiment I tried putting in the bitcoin address for donating to Archive.org. If you try to send $30 with of bitcoin, the network fee (compensation to intermediate nodes) is another $30. That doubles the cost of the payment! -- more info in this article

*Current fees to transfer/send money via bitcoin are around $30 flat* and still rising...

Haha! This thing is totally useless as a payment system. There is no way in hell this is any better than sending wire transfers between legitimate banks, which costs around $50, with the legitimacy and safety of banks.


----------



## Frank Drebin

james4beach said:


> Wow, with the exception of free internal coinbase/GDAX transfers, you're right ... these transfer fees are insanely high!
> 
> As an experiment I tried putting in the bitcoin address for donating to Archive.org. If you try to send $30 with of bitcoin, the network fee (compensation to intermediate nodes) is another $30. That doubles the cost of the payment! -- more info in this article
> 
> Haha! This thing is totally useless as a payment system. There is no way in hell this is any better than sending wire transfers between legitimate banks.


I have a wallet on my phone with the equivalent of ~$10 USD (well more like 6 or 7 now) of Bitcoin on it, I think it's essentially lost forever because I can't afford to do a transaction with it.


----------



## james4beach

Frank Drebin said:


> I have a wallet on my phone with the equivalent of ~$10 USD (well more like 6 or 7 now) of Bitcoin on it, I think it's essentially lost forever because I can't afford to do a transaction with it.


Sorry to hear that, but all of this is kind of funny. What an elegant payment system at $30 a transaction. Way more expensive than a credit card fee. Along with the bloated bitcoin blockchain filled with garbage, huge delays to clear a payment, and these high fees... I can't imagine how bitcoin can be viable.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/bitcoin-fees-rising-high/


----------



## spdr1812

With Coinbase my eqaul parts of BT , ET and LT are in their own "wallets" on the site . Is it at least safe while i gaze at in longingly until someday when i can use it . Still havent wrapped my head around that part yet ..


----------



## forrory1

james4beach said:


> Wow, with the exception of free internal coinbase/GDAX transfers, you're right ... these transfer fees are insanely high!
> 
> As an experiment I tried putting in the bitcoin address for donating to Archive.org. If you try to send $30 with of bitcoin, the network fee (compensation to intermediate nodes) is another $30. That doubles the cost of the payment! -- more info in this article
> 
> *Current fees to transfer/send money via bitcoin are around $30 flat* and still rising...
> 
> Haha! This thing is totally useless as a payment system. There is no way in hell this is any better than sending wire transfers between legitimate banks, which costs around $50, with the legitimacy and safety of banks.


Sending BTC from Gdax to any address is free.

R


----------



## forrory1

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ktorpe...focused-on-cheap-transactions/3/#6e1fc636c947

"all blockchains face the same realities when it comes to the ability to process a specific number of transactions per second. Bitcoin has large fees because it is the most trusted and long-lasting cryptocurrency network." 
Blockchains don't scale by design. They are designed to be decentralized and secure. Other tech has been built to allow scaling, this is how a properly engineered system is built. You don't compromise you core features, you develop new tech instead. Software development is a constant evolution eg Windows 95 - Windows 10. 

Lightning network is now live on the main Bitcoin net. I have used it on the Bitcoin test net and it is instant with no fee. You simply open/fund a payment channel after creating a compatible wallet and then can make payments which are instantly confirmed. 

This is bleeding edge tech and if anyone here would like to try it on testnet here are the steps/links:

download compatible android wallet https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=fr.acinq.eclair.wallet&hl=en 

load wallet with free testnet bitcoins https://testnet.manu.backend.hamburg/faucet

open a payment channel with a lightning node https://explorer.acinq.co/#/n/0338f57dd251f2edab6f51ab3b0b7368bf9e5483d97b4393a1d1424fbbeccb5a66

execute transactions here https://lightning.bitrefill.com/steam-eur-voucher/ here https://starblocks.acinq.co/#/ and here https://yalls.org/ 

R


----------



## MrMatt

forrory1 said:


> Sending BTC from Gdax to any address is free.
> 
> R


Gdax has to pay the satoshis for the transaction, I don't imagine they can afford to do that for free.

My opinion, bitcoin isn't a great currency.
Fees are too high, and it isn't anonymous, but it could be a good crypto reserve since it has "trust"

Faster Lower fee coins make sense as a currency. (Dogecoin, though initially a joke does have very low fees)
Anonymous currencies (Monero) have a place, but bitcoin litecoin etc aren't.

Etherum has potential because of the applications you can build on it, but I'm not too sure what's really going on there.


I see a market with a few serious coins.
Bitcoin will be the high value reserve currency.

A low fee coin will emerge.
An anonymous coin will emerge.


The interesting spot is the blockchain applications.


----------



## forrory1

MrMatt said:


> Gdax has to pay the satoshis for the transaction, I don't imagine they can afford to do that for free.
> 
> My opinion, bitcoin isn't a great currency.
> Fees are too high, and it isn't anonymous, but it could be a good crypto reserve since it has "trust"
> 
> Faster Lower fee coins make sense as a currency. (Dogecoin, though initially a joke does have very low fees)
> Anonymous currencies (Monero) have a place, but bitcoin litecoin etc aren't.
> 
> Etherum has potential because of the applications you can build on it, but I'm not too sure what's really going on there.
> 
> 
> I see a market with a few serious coins.
> Bitcoin will be the high value reserve currency.
> 
> A low fee coin will emerge.
> An anonymous coin will emerge.
> 
> 
> The interesting spot is the blockchain applications.



This view is shortsighted. Bitcoin has high fees because it is in demand. Other coins will suffer same fate if volume moves over to them. Blockchains don't scale. Software development is a process. Lightning is on the main net now addresses these issues. Software will continue to mature and evolve.

Stop looking at the current state of things and look into the future. Like stocks current price is a future valuation.

R


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

forrory1 said:


> ... Like stocks current price is a future valuation.


Like stocks? So owning a bitcoin is some how compable to owning a share in a company with assets, cash flow and earnings?
What is the price of bitcoin a future valuation of? 
More reminiscent perhaps of the pre-Christmas mania for Cabbage patch dolls in 1983 (except you still end up owning a doll).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtDrfwtF5Tw


----------



## sags

Goldman Sachs or somebody might come up with a crypto-currency, but from what I have read the big players are going to continue to use the US dollar and plan to further develop the email transfer system and other transfer systems.

The big complaint among consumers is the 3-5 business day wait for transactions to clear, but that is purposefully designed so the banks can gather interest from the "float". 

The float is the money the bank has withdrawn from one account before they deposit into another. They gain interest on hundreds of millions of dollars every day.

They could develop an instant system immediately, but don't really want to. (Internal transfers have recently become instant and the fees are low)


----------



## fatcat

forrory1 said:


> This view is shortsighted. Bitcoin has high fees because it is in demand. Other coins will suffer same fate if volume moves over to them. Blockchains don't scale. Software development is a process. Lightning is on the main net now addresses these issues. Software will continue to mature and evolve.
> 
> Stop looking at the current state of things and look into the future. Like stocks current price is a future valuation.
> 
> R


^this ... my god, do we now expect everything to happen over a long weekend ? 

remember dial up modems ? ... it takes time to build these systems but they will arrive and we are absolutely going to get stable systems of moving money that are much less expensive and much faster than the big banks offer

or maybe the big banks will step up to the plate and find ways to offer competitive products

the more interesting question question is: with the arrival of fintech and the blockchain, at what point do we think about dumping our big bank stocks ?


----------



## sags

We don't always solve our problems. We still bury radioactive material so we can pretend it doesn't exist.


----------



## Ag Driver

Deleted


----------



## peterk

Ag Driver in the cockpit :biggrin:


----------



## Ag Driver

Deleted


----------



## forrory1

sags said:


> We don't always solve our problems. We still bury radioactive material so we can pretend it doesn't exist.


Help me see the correlation between radioactive nuclear half-life decay and software updates.

R


----------



## james4beach

Today, Kodak (that nearly bankrupt company) announced they were creating a new crypto currency, causing the stock to suddenly spike about 120%

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:KODK

They are going to create the *KodakCoin*. The stock price _more than doubled_, and is up even further after hours.

KodakCoin!!!


----------



## fatcat

james4beach said:


> Today, Kodak (that nearly bankrupt company) announced they were creating a new crypto currency, causing the stock to suddenly spike about 120%
> 
> http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:KODK
> 
> They are going to create the *KodakCoin*. The stock price _more than doubled_, and is up even further after hours.
> 
> KodakCoin!!!


this looks actually very smart and is a prime example of the value of the blockchain 

photographers are constantly having their work ripped off and reused so this looks to be a very good way to protect intellectual property



> The blockchain technology of KODAKOne will provide a digital ledger of rights ownership where photographers can register work to license through KODAKCoin transactions. The platform will protect the IP of registered images, monitor the web to detect unlicensed use, and manage post-licensing compensation.


----------



## forrory1

fatcat said:


> this looks actually very smart and is a prime example of the value of the blockchain
> 
> photographers are constantly having their work ripped off and reused so this looks to be a very good way to protect intellectual property


KodakCoin = Pets.com

No need for a branded coin with an attached ToS. Bitcoin 2nd layer fills this use case.

R


----------



## sags

forrory1 said:


> Help me see the correlation between radioactive nuclear half-life decay and software updates.
> 
> 
> The "someone will fix it later" reasoning.


----------



## fatcat

forrory1 said:


> KodakCoin = Pets.com
> 
> No need for a branded coin with an attached ToS. Bitcoin 2nd layer fills this use case.
> 
> R


i suspect you are underestimating the both the power of the kodak brand to photographers and the draw of a readymade solution by a company they trust ... i think we will see a lot more of these proprietary niche offerings and it will be good for bitcoin and the crypto's generally


----------



## james4beach

fatcat said:


> this looks actually very smart and is a prime example of the value of the blockchain
> 
> photographers are constantly having their work ripped off and reused so this looks to be a very good way to protect intellectual property


No, it's pure bubble insanity. The idea has some merit but is clearly riding a wave of popular enthusiasm for the buzzwords. It absolutely does not justify a *quadrupling* of the stock price within 2 days.

fatcat you've been doing this long enough, you should be able to spot a clear bubble when you see it. Crypto currencies are a good idea and yes, block chains are useful (we use them at my work)... but this has become over exuberant.

Similarly there were many interesting tech companies in 1999 with great ideas, and some of them have changed the world, but the _overall mood of the entire industry was bubbly_. Same thing is going on here -- it doesn't mean crypto currencies will disappear, it just means people have become insane about it. Prices are disconnected from reality and running away to extremes.

Did I mention that I own some bitcoin? I had a fear of missing out. Exactly what happens during a bubble.


----------



## fatcat

james4beach said:


> No, it's pure bubble insanity. The idea has some merit but is clearly riding a wave of popular enthusiasm for the buzzwords. It absolutely does not justify a *quadrupling* of the stock price within 2 days.
> 
> fatcat you've been doing this long enough, you should be able to spot a clear bubble when you see it. Crypto currencies are a good idea and yes, block chains are useful (we use them at my work)... but this has become over exuberant.
> 
> Similarly there were many interesting tech companies in 1999 with great ideas, and some of them have changed the world, but the _overall mood of the entire industry was bubbly_. Same thing is going on here -- it doesn't mean crypto currencies will disappear, it just means people have become insane about it. Prices are disconnected from reality and running away to extremes.
> 
> Did I mention that I own some bitcoin? I had a fear of missing out. Exactly what happens during a bubble.


james, i agree completely that cryptos are in a bubble ... clearly ... they are made out of thin air ... there will be a correction

but the kodak initiative is different

if you know anything about photographers, you know they complain constantly and endlessly about people ripping off their work ... and people do rip off their work .... a blockchain with kodaks name on it to provide a chain of ownership is a very smart idea and i think has a good chance of suceeding

but yeah sure, anything that has block chain or cryptocurrency is going nuts and it all will correct


----------



## Frank Drebin

james4beach said:


> No, it's pure bubble insanity. The idea has some merit but is clearly riding a wave of popular enthusiasm for the buzzwords. It absolutely does not justify a *quadrupling* of the stock price within 2 days.
> 
> fatcat you've been doing this long enough, you should be able to spot a clear bubble when you see it. Crypto currencies are a good idea and yes, block chains are useful (we use them at my work)... but this has become over exuberant.
> 
> Similarly there were many interesting tech companies in 1999 with great ideas, and some of them have changed the world, but the _overall mood of the entire industry was bubbly_. Same thing is going on here -- it doesn't mean crypto currencies will disappear, it just means people have become insane about it. Prices are disconnected from reality and running away to extremes.
> 
> Did I mention that I own some bitcoin? I had a fear of missing out. Exactly what happens during a bubble.


Guilty as well! The whole thing was driving me crazy so I said to myself I'd put in enough $$ into it that if I lost it all I'd be happy that my money went away, as long as the bubble did too. How dumb is that?!

It was interesting to hear the quote from Jackson Palmer, Dogecoin's creator when Dogecoin (yes Dogecoin) reached 1B market cap.



> I have a lot of faith in the Dogecoin Core development team to keep the software stable and secure, but I think it says a lot about the state of the cryptocurrency space in general that a currency with a dog on it which hasn't released a software update in over 2 years has a $1B+ market cap.


----------



## sags

These aren't currencies. They are tokens like those used at arcades to play games and win prizes.

The blockchain doesn't require any tokens. Companies can pay people to maintain their own blockchains.


----------



## kac147

How would you determine the value of the cryptocurrency since it is only a tool to transfer money? Cryptocurrency does not like real currency because currency is supported by the country who owns it, and you can determine the value of it based on the country's economic.


----------



## nathan79

kac147 said:


> How would you determine the value of the cryptocurrency since it is only a tool to transfer money? Cryptocurrency does not like real currency because currency is supported by the country who owns it, and you can determine the value of it based on the country's economic.


Short answer: The value is what the market dictates (people hate this).

Longer answer: You can't, but you can use some basic logic to draw some conclusions...

For example, there are roughly 16.8 million bitcoins in existence, and there are roughly 7 _billion_ people on Earth. How many of those people own bitcoin, and how much value in bitcoin does the average person hold?

Let's estimate that 100 million people on Earth (about 1.4% of the population) hold some amount of bitcoin. I fully admit I'm pulling that number out of my ***, but I'm just using it for simplicity and to illustrate a point. (If you really wanted to research it, I'm sure there are better estimates out there.)

16.8 million bitcoins divided by 100 million people = 0.168 bitcoins per person. 

Let's pretend for a moment that 1 bitcoin = $1. Using the above figures, that means the average bitcoin holder has less than 17 cents worth of bitcoin they can transact with.

What if our average bitcoin holder wants to buy a cheap used car worth $2,000, and the seller wants to be paid in bitcoin? How is he going to come up with 2,000 bitcoins, when there is such a small supply of coins relative to the number of users? He would first need to find someone willing to sell 2,000 coins, and then he would have to compete with other potential buyers. The demand for bitcoins would quickly outstrip the supply, and the price of each coin would rise.

Now, let's say that demand pushed the price of 1 bitcoin all the way up to $15,000. Ridiculous, right? But remember, we already calculated that the average holder only has 0.17 bitcoins. All of a sudden, that $2,000 used car only costs about 0.13 bitcoins. The average bitcoin holder can now afford to buy that car without buying anymore coins. In fact, he has money left over. The value of bitcoin might even drop a little, provided the number of users doesn't increase.

So, there are three key variables: number of users, embodied value, and available supply.


----------



## sags

Bitcoin has no embodied value. There is no asset or government backing the coin. Bitcoins solve no immediate need for people. (like housing)

Available supply has nothing to do with value. My grandson can finger paint the only painting of it's kind in the world but scarcity doesn't make it valuable.

Lastly, what people will pay for it. That IS the value of bitcoins and can change on a moments notice because there is no underlying value.

When the only thing making something value is the belief it will become more valuable..........that is a bubble known as the greater fool bubble. 

It's success depends on finding someone who thinks it is worth more than you do. Like all bubbles it will come to a sudden and magnificent end.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

^+1 :loyal:

SAGSCOIN, IT'S ALL I SHOP WITH!

View attachment 17618


GET YOURS TODAY!


----------



## cablex

Bitcoin value is derived from the removal of trust to transact and decentralized management of supply
Both are strong hedge compare with current incumbant financial instruments and assets
They are new novel technology and scenario that we havent seen before.... 
Price seem to stable above CAD $15000 for a while now, the new normal it is https://www.coingecko.com/en/price_charts/bitcoin/cad


----------



## kac147

I understand that it will be the new normal of currency in the future. However, I don't think the government will let it become the major currency if there are not too many people have it. Until there is enough supply, it will not replace the real currency. And if the supply goes up, the price will drop.


----------



## fatcat

kac147 said:


> I understand that it will be the new normal of currency in the future. However, I don't think the government will let it become the major currency if there are not too many people have it. Until there is enough supply, it will not replace the real currency. And if the supply goes up, the price will drop.


bitcoin or some other crypto is going to breakthrough and offer speed, security and low cost, when that happens, it will put pressure on government to either offer a similar product or to get out of the way of the crypto

people want to be able to move their money quickly, cheaply and securely and if possible, privately, if that can be attained it will be up to government to accommodate _us_ since lets face it, we, are the government


----------



## Frank Drebin

fatcat said:


> bitcoin or some other crypto is going to breakthrough and offer speed, security and low cost, when that happens, it will put pressure on government to either offer a similar product or to get out of the way of the crypto
> 
> people want to be able to move their money quickly, cheaply and securely and if possible, privately, if that can be attained it will be up to government to accommodate _us_ since lets face it, we, are the government


>99% of the general population has no interest in moving money privately. I still don't see how crypto has any advantage over fiat for the layman. Security? I'll take my bank and CC insurance anyday over crypto's "security". I can buy something on amazon or from a seller in Portugal off ebay instantly.

And what exactly is wrong with inflation and a depreciating dollar? You can hedge against that with real estate, the stock market, etc. With a fixed supply currency like gold or bitcoin all you do is encourage hoarding, which essentially would bring our entire economy to a halt. How on earth could you get a mortgage with bitcoin? Who would lend it?

I have no idea when this is going to pop, I've got some skin in the game thinking it might go a bit longer, but bitcoin in no way is the currency of the future.

TL;DR - If you don't buy bitcoin, It will not affect your future. Even if it goes to 1M per coin. Unless you are interested in buying steroids or LSD on the black market, then you might be able to buy more.


----------



## kac147

One question I would ask is:
Are you buying bitcoin because it will be the future currency (buy and hold) or are you buying it because someone will pay higher driving up the price so you can make money of it?


----------



## sags

Bitcoin was $19,500 and now it is $13,500 for a $6,000 loss (30%) in a month.


----------



## fatcat

Frank Drebin said:


> >99% of the general population has no interest in moving money privately. I still don't see how crypto has any advantage over fiat for the layman. Security? I'll take my bank and CC insurance anyday over crypto's "security". I can buy something on amazon or from a seller in Portugal off ebay instantly.
> 
> And what exactly is wrong with inflation and a depreciating dollar? You can hedge against that with real estate, the stock market, etc. With a fixed supply currency like gold or bitcoin all you do is encourage hoarding, which essentially would bring our entire economy to a halt. How on earth could you get a mortgage with bitcoin? Who would lend it?
> 
> I have no idea when this is going to pop, I've got some skin in the game thinking it might go a bit longer, but bitcoin in no way is the currency of the future.
> 
> TL;DR - If you don't buy bitcoin, It will not affect your future. Even if it goes to 1M per coin. Unless you are interested in buying steroids or LSD on the black market, then you might be able to buy more.


let me try again, first i agree with you that moving money privately doesn't matter to most but moving money quickly and cheaply and anywhere you want does ...

at the moment there is no way to accomplish all 3 of those goals, paypal and etransfer have limits on amounts, wire transfers can only be initiated at banks and take hours or days etc etc ... all of these systems have huge limitations 

all of the current systems skim off the top, they all take a slice for the service of moving your money (as do the cryptoexchanges)

what crypocurrencies promise is the ability to move money anywhere in the world, in any amount, immediately, for very low cost

do they do that now ... no ... not even close

will they do it in the future, yes, absolutely ... this is precisely where their value lies

bitcoin and other cryptos merely give the user another option, thats all

and in the meantime put pressure on banks to become more efficient and less expensive and thats all to the good


----------



## cainvest

fatcat said:


> let me try again, first i agree with you that moving money privately doesn't matter to most but moving money quickly and cheaply and anywhere you want does ...
> 
> at the moment there is no way to accomplish all 3 of those goals, paypal and etransfer have limits on amounts, wire transfers can only be initiated at banks and take hours or days etc etc ... all of these systems have huge limitations
> 
> all of the current systems skim off the top, they all take a slice for the service of moving your money (as do the cryptoexchanges)
> 
> what crypocurrencies promise is the ability to move money anywhere in the world, in any amount, immediately, for very low cost
> 
> do they do that now ... no ... not even close
> 
> will they do it in the future, yes, absolutely ... this is precisely where their value lies
> 
> bitcoin and other cryptos merely give the user another option, thats all
> 
> and in the meantime put pressure on banks to become more efficient and less expensive and thats all to the good


Crypto will never succeed unless banks and gov support it, both not likely to ever happen.


----------



## nathan79

sags said:


> Bitcoin has no embodied value. There is no asset or government backing the coin. Bitcoins solve no immediate need for people. (like housing)


Seriously, did you even read my post? Come on.

Embodied value is whatever value people are putting into it. I'm not sure why I'm wasting my time here, but maybe this will make more sense...

Let's say 100 people use bitcoin, and each of them wants to move $168,000. Since there are 16.8 mil bitcoins, the math works out perfectly, and they can send their money at 1:1 value. Now, lets say the number of bitcoin users increased tenfold to 1,000, and those users all want to send the same amount of money. There are two possible solutions: increase the bitcoin supply 10X (mathematically impossible) or increase the price of each bitcoin by 10X.


----------



## fatcat

cainvest said:


> Crypto will never succeed unless banks and gov support it, both not likely to ever happen.


huh ? banks don't need to support cryptos for them to succeed, cryptos can and do operate entirely free from banks

and governments can surely make them illegal but governments can be changed and cryptos will never be fully stopped for person to person transactions


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## olivaw

I plan to stay away from bitcoin for three reasons: 

1) Tulips. They were in limited supply too. Undoubtedly, tulip growers dedicated land and resources that might otherwise be used for food production to tulip bulbs but that didn't give them intrinsic value. It was a supply and demand bubble that could only be sustained by an increasing number of people trying to get in on the action. 

2) It is unproductive to consume vast quantities of electricity to solve relatively arbitrary algorithmic problems. That is how Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are created. Bitcoin mining consumes *more electricity than many countries*. 

3) If I am dealing with somebody who insists on being paid in bitcoin, I am probably dealing with somebody that I don't want to be dealing with.


----------



## sags

Trillions of dollars are moved every day in the financial markets, without the need for any crypto currency.

What would bitcoin add to that dynamic ? If it isn't needed.........what is it worth ?

https://www.quora.com/How-much-volume-is-traded-per-day-in-the-forex-market


----------



## Frank Drebin

fatcat said:


> let me try again, first i agree with you that moving money privately doesn't matter to most but moving money quickly and cheaply and anywhere you want does ...
> 
> at the moment there is no way to accomplish all 3 of those goals, paypal and etransfer have limits on amounts, wire transfers can only be initiated at banks and take hours or days etc etc ... all of these systems have huge limitations
> 
> all of the current systems skim off the top, they all take a slice for the service of moving your money (as do the cryptoexchanges)
> 
> what crypocurrencies promise is the ability to move money anywhere in the world, in any amount, immediately, for very low cost
> 
> do they do that now ... no ... not even close
> 
> will they do it in the future, yes, absolutely ... this is precisely where their value lies
> 
> bitcoin and other cryptos merely give the user another option, thats all
> 
> and in the meantime put pressure on banks to become more efficient and less expensive and thats all to the good


So...what if interac removed the limit on their e-transfer (say secured against bank balance) and removed fees? Same for paypal? Perhaps a paypal level 2 account where your transfers are secured against some sort of equity? 

There are some cryptos that transfer nearly instantly and fee-less (Raiblocks/XRB) right now. I believe its ran and developed by a half dozen guys. Market cap of ~3Billion or so. Bought some with USD 2 weeks ago, its worth 33% less today. But no fees!


----------



## cainvest

fatcat said:


> huh ? banks don't need to support cryptos for them to succeed, cryptos can and do operate entirely free from banks
> 
> and governments can surely make them illegal but governments can be changed and cryptos will never be fully stopped for person to person transactions


If banks/FI's don't support crypto then how do the majority of people transfer money to it? 
Do you think people will opt to get paid (if possible) via direct deposit to Bitcoin instead of going their bank? 
People also won't like untraceable transactions, no verification of payment is bad thing in legal cases.

Sure crypto's will exist, mainly for illegal activities and gambling on them but that's just my opinion.


----------



## nathan79

olivaw said:


> 2) It is unproductive to consume vast quantities of electricity to solve relatively arbitrary algorithmic problems. That is how Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are created. Bitcoin mining consumes *more electricity than many countries*.


The more important purpose of mining is to secure the network with proof of work. The creation of bitcoin is a reward for securing the network. There are also a lot of problems with the energy consumption argument. I'll just link this video, because they go over it in quite a bit of detail: https://youtu.be/Geiwb63nMYw?t=7m37s


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Sorry, I have yet to be convinced that our current system & choices are broke and need fixing. 
Day to day, I can buy, sell, transfer and pay online instantly, anywhere, at no or nominal cost. Larger amounts I can move by adding a 5 minute phone call (which I consider a prudent security measure), well over $1MM to third parties in the past year, securely and without grief. 
Clearly I don't speak for everyone but I simply have no need for a cryptocurrency.


----------



## Frank Drebin

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Sorry, I have yet to be convinced it's broke and needs fixing. Day to day, I can buy, sell, transfer and pay online instantly, anywhere, at no or nominal cost. Larger amounts I can move by adding a 5 minute phone call (which I consider a prudent security measure), well over $1MM to third parties in the past year, securely and without grief.
> Clearly I don't speak for everyone but I simply have no need for a cryptocurrency.


This. I don't get it. I haven't been woke yet, so to speak.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

^ Revised my first sentence above. Hopefully clarifies.


----------



## marina628

I am buying Cryptocurrency to make money not to avoid banks or pay taxes ,today I bought DOGE ,WAVES,SIA,ETH,OMG,PIVX,NEO ,WTC,KCS,ZRX,ICON to add to what I already have.As stated before I was forced into bitcoin in May 2016 when I was owed money from a poker room and they would only pay that way ,now anyone can go back and see there are more 600%+ ROI in 2017 than even a -1%.I advise anyone who dips into this to only put in what you can stomach to lose and spread yourself over at least 10 coins .SAG anyone who bought bitcoin at 20k would not be selling it now .


----------



## nobleea

There seems to be ads for some new crypto coin of some sort every day now.
I would guess there's more crypto currencies out there than there are real currencies.
We're in the late stages of the mania now. But bubbles always last longer than you think they will.


----------



## sags

There is no doubt criminals have done very well with bitcoins.


----------



## hboy54

nobleea said:


> There seems to be ads for some new crypto coin of some sort every day now.
> I would guess there's more crypto currencies out there than there are real currencies.
> We're in the late stages of the mania now. But bubbles always last longer than you think they will.


It is funny that there are likely great numbers of people who would not have considered investing in "risky" mining or oils shares a few years back, stuff based in physical utility to humans, but cryptocurrency makes sense to them. And so far they are being handsomely rewarded, much better than I am investing based in the reality of physical human usefulness. Will it last? Time will tell.

hboy54


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

marina628 said:


> I am buying Cryptocurrency to make money not to avoid banks or pay taxes ,today I bought DOGE ,WAVES,SIA,ETH,OMG,PIVX,NEO ,WTC,KCS,ZRX,ICON to add to what I already have.As stated before I was forced into bitcoin in May 2016 when I was owed money from a poker room and they would only pay that way ,now anyone can go back and see there are more 600%+ ROI in 2017 than even a -1%.I advise anyone who dips into this to only put in what you can stomach to lose and spread yourself over at least 10 coins .SAG anyone who bought bitcoin at 20k would not be selling it now .


Wow, quite the crypto-stable you have built up Marina. Based on your past endeavors & successes, I think you have a unique ability to know when to hold 'em and know when to fold them, that most of us don't possess. Good luck :applouse:


----------



## james4beach

marina628 said:


> I advise anyone who dips into this to only put in what you can stomach to lose and spread yourself over at least 10 coins


What platform are you using? You mentioned 11 crypto coins in your post. One of my big problems with this category of instruments is the difficulty of trading these, safely. The coin exchanges have been extremely flaky and frequently disappear. Coinbase is an exception, but only supports BTC, BCH, ETH, LTC. QuadrigaCX also seems popular in Canada but also supports the same 4 coins. I have doubts about QuadrigaCX since it operates out of the Bahamas and I have concerns about their compliance with Canadian tax laws.

Is there a reliable exchange where someone can buy those 11 crypto coins? The diversification doesn't do you any good when the exchange goes "poof". And moving 11 coins to your own private wallets is _way too much_ extra work. It requires careful management of several pieces of software including managing your crypto keys. Even as a computer security who works with crypto keys on a daily basis, I would find this way too much work, and too easy to screw up.


----------



## fatcat

i agree with everyone who says cryptos are in a bubble ... every innovation goes through stages of collapse and rebuilding

i disagree with those who say cryptos are mere fluff and serve no purpose, they have persevered for a reason, people want easier, faster and cheaper ways to move money

if government and traditional banks can find ways to do it then cryptos may fade though i don't think they will disappear completely ... science fiction writers have told us that for years

a much better way to look at cryptos is as an expression of the power of the blockchain which truly does have the potential to revolutionize the way an infinite number of things are bought, sold, exchanged and owned


----------



## fatcat

james4beach said:


> Today, Kodak (that nearly bankrupt company) announced they were creating a new crypto currency, causing the stock to suddenly spike about 120%
> 
> http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:KODK
> 
> They are going to create the *KodakCoin*. The stock price _more than doubled_, and is up even further after hours.
> 
> KodakCoin!!!


an example of someone who misses completely the use and power of the blockchain, with regard to the kodak initiative

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/glo...kest-links-in-the-blockchain/article37593355/

the writer says:



> There are other problems, too. While the blockchain may note who owns an image, it doesn't guarantee someone can't copy it and use it illegally. If a photographer wants payment and the user won't pay, they still have to go to court to seek compensation. So what's the advantage of a blockchain again?


but he misses completely the power and use of establishing first ownership/creation that is viewable and visible worldwide ... this alone is a huge thing for settling subsequent ownership claims

sure people can copy the work and you may still have to sue them but an agreed upon reference that establishes creation/ownership is huge and the courts will likely support it

this will make it much more difficult for people to steal intellectual property and lets face it, ip is the future


----------



## lonewolf :)

Some calls for Bitcoin to reach 4 trillion latter this year as it follows the path of the hyper inflation of the German currency during the Wiemar republic


----------



## sags

What do KodakCoins do ? What do any of these coins do ?


----------



## olivaw

nathan79 said:


> The more important purpose of mining is to secure the network with proof of work. The creation of bitcoin is a reward for securing the network. There are also a lot of problems with the energy consumption argument. I'll just link this video, because they go over it in quite a bit of detail: https://youtu.be/Geiwb63nMYw?t=7m37s


Interesting video Nathan. Fair point about securing the network. 

I wasn't convinced that the cost of plastic cards, bank managers driving to work etc. need to be added in to the cost of traditional currency to get a fair comparison. Those costs would still be incurred if cryptocurrency became a currency because people want credit cards, bank loans, and all those other bank services. 

Matt Weinberger opines that bitcoin is a long way from being a real currency because of the $40 to $45 transaction fee. *I tried to buy $1 of bitcoin from a Las Vegas ATM — and it just proves how far bitcoin is from replacing regular money* I am not familiar enough with that market to know if his experience is typical but $40+ per transaction seems like a deal breaker.


----------



## nathan79

olivaw said:


> Matt Weinberger opines that bitcoin is a long way from being a real currency because of the $40 to $45 transaction fee. *I tried to buy $1 of bitcoin from a Las Vegas ATM — and it just proves how far bitcoin is from replacing regular money* I am not familiar enough with that market to know if his experience is typical but $40+ per transaction seems like a deal breaker.


That's true, and unfortunately, that is very typical. Bitcoin is not practical for small payments right now. For that I would use Litecoin, Raiblocks, etc.

There actually was a major upgrade to Bitcoin called _segregated witness_, which in theory doubles the number of possible transactions (reducing fees), but unfortunately not many companies or wallets are supporting it yet.

There are more upgrades in the pipeline. The biggest one is called Lightning Network, which is a layer the sits on top of the blockchain. It will allow for a virtually unlimited amount of transactions, with minimal fees. The only transactions that are recorded on the blockchain are the opening and closing of a lightning channel. (Think of opening a channel like funding a bank account, or buying a prepaid credit card -- you can keep using the funds for purchases until they are exhausted.)


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> What do KodakCoins do ? What do any of these coins do ?


You can trade them for other coins, or items or services, just like other currencies.

I'll post a question to you "What good is a Euro or CAD$?"


----------



## Frank Drebin

James, binance has a fantastic exchange with a very easy to use mobile app. I'm not sure how many coins it has but it has most of the "hot"alts like neo or icx, and xrb is getting listed shortly.

Again it's money I'm willing to lose so i keep it on theexchange. Google auth makes it fairly safe but if i had 5figures or more id use a wallet.


----------



## cablex

Market going bonker all-red today https://www.coingecko.com/en, anyone has any idea?


----------



## sags

People trying to get out while they can........at $11,700 a lot of people are losing money and it isn't fun anymore.


----------



## andrewf

Apparently South Korea is talking about banning cryptocurrencies.


----------



## marina628

It goes without saying there are many manipulations in this crypto world , I use bittrex ,binance ,kracken ,blockchain ,coinbase and coinsquare.Last count i have 81 different coins now ,yesterday I sold $1600 in bitcoin to buy more altcoins ,it's still fun for me because I am making money .


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## Frank Drebin

marina628 said:


> It goes without saying there are many manipulations in this crypto world , I use bittrex ,binance ,kracken ,blockchain ,coinbase and coinsquare.Last count i have 81 different coins now ,yesterday I sold $1600 in bitcoin to buy more altcoins ,it's still fun for me because I am making money .


You're not making money the last two weeks, especially in alt coins.


----------



## nathan79

Yeah, anyone who bought in the last couple weeks is likely down.

Ripple (XRP) has lost 66% of its peak value. I already owned some, but my break even price is only about $0.25.

My general rule is to avoid any coin that is being heavily pumped, so I didn't put anything into XRP during the last few weeks. I also didn't put anything into Tron (TRX), which is down nearly 80%.

I have no idea how much further these are going to drop. Ripple might be fine tech, but I never really saw the case for the XRP coin itself. As for Tron, there wasn't much there at all in my view.

With the drops almost across the board, this could be a time to buy some coins that actually look promising.


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## marina628

Daytrading you can make money on these things .


----------



## TomB19

This is the Canadian money forum, not the Canadian investment forum. Still, it should be pointed out that block chains are not investments. Some of these are legit currencies. As such, they are assets but they are volatile, non-productive, assets.

Any crypto currency that is finite is a direct redistribution of wealth. A Bitcoin is worth exactly what someone will pay for it, minus the transaction fees, of course.

For those who win the poker game, I congratulate you.

Let's be clear. The only money that comes out of Bitcoin and the like is money that has previously gone into it. Even at that, there is significant overhead.

There is nothing wrong with speculation, including on crypto currencies, but it is straight up gambling.

Consider a productive assets like a distributing company. If it is a good business, it will give you back (over time) the money you paid for it and you will still own a piece of the business. That is because the asset is producing something.

You can over pay for a productive asset and it will correct itself over time.

If you had bought gold in 1980, you would still be waiting for the price to get back to what you paid for it, you would have 35 years of lost opportunity, and you would have 35 years of inflationary erosion.

Whereas, if you had paid double retail for Exxon in 1980, you would be a pretty happy individual today, despite oil stocks being significantly off today.

Ok. Back to the poker game.


----------



## marina628

nathan79 said:


> Yeah, anyone who bought in the last couple weeks is likely down.
> 
> Ripple (XRP) has lost 66% of its peak value. I already owned some, but my break even price is only about $0.25.
> 
> My general rule is to avoid any coin that is being heavily pumped, so I didn't put anything into XRP during the last few weeks. I also didn't put anything into Tron (TRX), which is down nearly 80%.
> 
> I have no idea how much further these are going to drop. Ripple might be fine tech, but I never really saw the case for the XRP coin itself. As for Tron, there wasn't much there at all in my view.
> 
> With the drops almost across the board, this could be a time to buy some coins that actually look promising.


On July 12 I made these purchases
Ripple .18 cents
Lisk $1.69
Stratis $3.40 
Factor $16.30 
Iota .21
auger $18.26
Bitshares .13
Nem .13
Eos $1.76
Nxt .09
PIVX $1.80
Steem $1.24
litecoin $46.89
zcash $190.24

Steem was the weirdest one because early 2017 you could buy it in am make 25% by afternoon and sell only to do same day after day after day.On December 17 I sold alot of these coins above and took profits ,I currently own 106 different coins and have about 15 spreedsheets to track my accts ,yes I have it spreadover that many exchanges now lol


----------



## TomB19

By the way, this line of reasoning is why I'm bullish on real estate. Specifically, real estate that is a productive asset.

People who worry that r-e will go down 5-10% next year are probably not investors.

Investors have long time horizons of many years.

What real estate is going to be worth less 10 years from now? What productive asset is going to be worth less 10 years from now?

Investors have a high chance of success on the long term. Speculators do not.


----------



## marina628

I think most know you don't plan your retirement or kid's resp on this ,most people I know who have money in this are playing with house money now ,none of us got in bitcoin even at $2000 a coin.My girlfriend bought $70 in bitcoin sold it for $300 and bought a purse that she will have to enjoy a long time.Now she is very happy


----------



## james4beach

marina628 said:


> Daytrading you can make money on these things .


Only when it's going up.

It's no different than the stock market. It's all fun and games, day trading, scalping, range trading etc during the bull market. However in the bear market everyone will get destroyed, no matter how cute their strategy.

I have no problem with speculation, though. I think I currently have around $60 in bitcoin... big deal.


----------



## marina628

If you spend as much time as i do studying these coin patterns you can buy a coin that dropped 20% today and in a few days or as less than 1 day they go up 20%+ .A Friend of mine told me to buy Walton last week I snoozed a few days and he made 90%.


----------



## marina628

I should point out that I do not have a day job anymore so alot of free time on my hands


----------



## james4beach

marina628 said:


> If you spend as much time as i do studying these coin patterns you can buy a coin that dropped 20% today and in a few days or as less than 1 day they go up 20%+ .A Friend of mine told me to buy Walton last week I snoozed a few days and he made 90%.


That strategy completely fails if that coin never goes up again.

I'm just saying that people have said the same things about stocks. Back in the late 1990s, day trading was very popular and people had all kinds of strategies to exploit the patterns in stocks. This worked until the overall market turned down, and kept going down. I underestand that the crypto coins have shown certain patterns, but these patterns don't have a long history. We're talking only a couple years of history.

I still maintain that if you want to do speculative trading in securities, you're better off in something liquid and with a long established history like stocks/futures/FX. Personally I speculatively trade the AUD/CAD pair, as well as some small cap stocks. At least you can use well established brokers, have CIPF insurance, and don't have to worry about tax uncertainties or the danger you may be dealing with an international criminal money laundering syndicate.

Nothing wrong with speculating in crypto currencies but don't fool yourself into thinking any of these trading strategies are solid, or that the coins won't simply keep going down and never recover. What I'm hearing from the crypto currency crowd is very similar to what I used to hear from tech stock gamblers and day traders.


----------



## nathan79

marina628 said:


> On July 12 I made these purchases
> Ripple .18 cents
> Lisk $1.69
> Stratis $3.40
> Factor $16.30
> Iota .21
> auger $18.26
> Bitshares .13
> Nem .13
> Eos $1.76
> Nxt .09
> PIVX $1.80
> Steem $1.24
> litecoin $46.89
> zcash $190.24
> 
> Steem was the weirdest one because early 2017 you could buy it in am make 25% by afternoon and sell only to do same day after day after day.On December 17 I sold alot of these coins above and took profits ,I currently own 106 different coins and have about 15 spreedsheets to track my accts ,yes I have it spreadover that many exchanges now lol


106... wow, that's an impressive amount. I have about 25.

I hold BTC, LTC, ETH, XMR, XRB, BURST, DGB, XRP, XEM, STR, BTS, SC, DOGE, FTC, VTC, DASH, IOTA, VIBE, DRGN, FUN, OMG...

Sold my BCH but still have the other Bitcoin forks.


----------



## lonewolf :)

james4beach said:


> That strategy completely fails if that coin never goes up again.
> 
> I'm just saying that people have said the same things about stocks. Back in the late 1990s, day trading was very popular and people had all kinds of strategies to exploit the patterns in stocks. This worked until the overall market turned down, and kept going down. I underestand that the crypto coins have shown certain patterns, but these patterns don't have a long history. We're talking only a couple years of history.
> 
> I still maintain that if you want to do speculative trading in securities, you're better off in something liquid and with a long established history like stocks/futures/FX. Personally I speculatively trade the AUD/CAD pair, as well as some small cap stocks. At least you can use well established brokers, have CIPF insurance, and don't have to worry about tax uncertainties or the danger you may be dealing with an international criminal money laundering syndicate.
> 
> Nothing wrong with speculating in crypto currencies but don't fool yourself into thinking any of these trading strategies are solid, or that the coins won't simply keep going down and never recover. What I'm hearing from the crypto currency crowd is very similar to what I used to hear from tech stock gamblers and day traders.


 Exactly

My guess is @ least 90% of those buying bitcoin will lose money. It does not matter the table that is played on the money @ the poker table works it way to the strong players.

This thread is getting a lot of attention of late Bitcoin might have topped out & the weak hands will continue to buy all the way down then capitulate @ the bottom or Bitcoin might become one of the currencies that has becomes worthless.


----------



## james4beach

I first bought some BTC at around 15K USD. Just bought some more at 11K USD.

I'm not bothering diversifying since these coins all seem to have very high correlations, and this is just a stupid gamble anyway. So far I have lost a total of $36 on my speculation.


----------



## lonewolf :)

J4B that is the best way to play very little on table if bitcoin becomes the currency of choice in the future you will be very rich if not very little money lost.


----------



## marina628

james4beach said:


> I first bought some BTC at around 15K USD. Just bought some more at 11K USD.
> 
> I'm not bothering diversifying since these coins all seem to have very high correlations, and this is just a stupid gamble anyway. So far I have lost a total of $36 on my speculation.


That's the difference in us , I got in very early my ETH average cost is under $30 even with the fall today it is up 3300% for me.I thought bitcoin was overpriced at $800 obviously I was wrong .


----------



## TomB19

I'm one of the few old dudes who thinks Bitcoin is here to stay. I believe it can have a useful purpose.

I would like to do all online transactions in a crypto currency, if I could. It would democratize a mechanism that is currently owned by PayPal.

... But I see no purpose in speculating on the currency, other than excitement of gambling. It's a far better bet than a casino or lottery but I don't do that, either.

So, if people just use crypto-of-the-day as a wire service, the native value of the currency will equal the dead pool divided by the circulation. In other words, it will fluctuate with use and time, since all dead pools grow over time.

The currency needs speculators to stabilize it.

As money drains out of economies, into crypto currency, it will be re-introduced through the process of quantitative easing. Government's will say they won't do it but, obviously, they will. In effect, this will be a dark pool of (at least some) government money.

In an interesting way, it's an international money leak.


----------



## fatcat

i don't think that people necessarily want crypto's or bitcoin in particular

what they want is a currency that will give them: global reach, unlimited transaction amounts, extremely low costs and speed

this what the cryptos promise, but haven't yet delivered on, whoever does that will win the day

if the banks can step up and work with governments, they can win but generally the belief is that they simply can't or won't work together like this due to bureaucracy and national interests

and so we have cryptos that are speaking for us, the investors and money movers ... bitcoin is a third way, outside of government and will be useful if it fails but moves the process along to something we all can use

moving money is still expensive, slow and a major hassle, both in really large amounts and really small amounts


----------



## sags

Banks would want to offer money transfers cheap because.................?


----------



## sags

It looks like the bitcoin bubble is bursting. The price is dropping and people are trying to sell large quantities but there are no buyers for large amounts.

Somebody had 103 for sale. They are worth a million less a month ago. That must sting a little.


----------



## kac147

I thought the bubble will go a bit longer. We will see.


----------



## forrory1

TomB19 said:


> I'm one of the few old dudes who thinks Bitcoin is here to stay. I believe it can have a useful purpose.
> 
> I would like to do all online transactions in a crypto currency, if I could. It would democratize a mechanism that is currently owned by PayPal.
> 
> ... But I see no purpose in speculating on the currency, other than excitement of gambling. It's a far better bet than a casino or lottery but I don't do that, either.
> 
> So, if people just use crypto-of-the-day as a wire service, the native value of the currency will equal the dead pool divided by the circulation. In other words, it will fluctuate with use and time, since all dead pools grow over time.
> 
> The currency needs speculators to stabilize it.
> 
> As money drains out of economies, into crypto currency, it will be re-introduced through the process of quantitative easing. Government's will say they won't do it but, obviously, they will. In effect, this will be a dark pool of (at least some) government money.
> 
> In an interesting way, it's an international money leak.



At TomB19: Owning Bitcoin which is truly finite is equal to owning real estate on the blockchain. Bitcoin is the only means of payment for having your transaction record on the blockchain. This can be transfer or wealth, ownership, or proof of something else yet to be invented/unrealized use case.

Also at some point we are not looking at the price of BTC going up but the value of USD falling as quantitative easing continues.


All: Investing in cryptocurrecies is the equal of investing in PRE-IPO stocks/companies. Most do not have proven/functioning use cases yet. Most do not turn a profit. Rarely does the public get first crack at investing PRE-IPO.

Ps. I own one type of crypto coin. Enjoy the fire sale today.

R


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> It looks like the bitcoin bubble is bursting. The price is dropping and people are trying to sell large quantities but there are no buyers for large amounts.
> 
> Somebody had 103 for sale. They are worth a million less a month ago. That must sting a little.


Any bitcoin "investor" should be prepared for this kind of volatility, it's still nothing. The 200 day moving average for bitcoin is down near $5,000. If looking at bitcoin the same way as stock/commodities technical analysis, it could easily decline to around $5,000 and potentially stabilize there, and this would still be considered a long term uptrend.

I'm just saying, this recent decline doesn't even violate the long term uptrend.


----------



## sags

If you look at the all time charts of bitcoin, it was around $1000 and then went parabolic to $20,000. It is now following the same slope on the downside and I am thinking will fall to $1000 again.

http://bitcointicker.co/ Click on all time chart.


----------



## kac147

The current position is plunging below the lower Bollinger Bands, and Bollinger Bands start to expanding which would show a period of downside for a while.


----------



## nathan79

fatcat said:


> i don't think that people necessarily want crypto's or bitcoin in particular
> 
> what they want is a currency that will give them: global reach, unlimited transaction amounts, extremely low costs and speed


Well, I can use Litecoin right now and get all of those things. What cryptos haven't proven to do is scale themselves up to wide adoption. They work efficiently until they reach the limits of their coding, then they become slow and expensive.

Blockchains simply don't scale well. If you attempt to scale them too large they become bloated and centralized, because fewer people want to run a node when they have to download terabytes of data. Once Bitcoin becomes centralized, it loses the trust-less aspect of its design.

That doesn't mean we should get rid of blockchains; it means we need to build layers on top of them -- much like HTTP is a layer on top of TCP/IP. This is why Lightning Network is so promising, because it promises to reduce the load on the blockchain, while increasing speed, lowering fees, and preserving all of the features of Bitcoin. There are also things we can do to improve blockchains, such as make transactions more compact so they take up less space.

Bitcoin's blockchain will eventually grow to be terabytes of data, but by the time that happens storage and transfer of that amount of data will be trivial.

The other major issue is volatility, which will only be solved by wide adoption. Compared to the forex market, cryptos are very thinly traded and prone to large fluctuations in value. There is also much uncertainty regarding government regulations. Every time news of a possible government ban/regulation comes out, it can have large effects on the price. I think this should be less of an issue in the future as governments sort out how they're going to deal with Bitcoin and other cryptos.


----------



## nathan79

sags said:


> If you look at the all time charts of bitcoin, it was around $1000 and then went parabolic to $20,000. It is now following the same slope on the downside and I am thinking will fall to $1000 again.
> 
> http://bitcointicker.co/ Click on all time chart.


That seems highly unlikely to me. There are tons of buyers between 8 and 9K.









(Not making any predictions.)


----------



## james4beach

nathan79 said:


> Bitcoin's blockchain will eventually grow to be terabytes of data, but by the time that happens storage and transfer of that amount of data will be trivial.
> 
> The other major issue is volatility, which will only be solved by wide adoption.


I agree that bitcoin blockchain is getting huge and will get much larger, but as you mention, disk storage & network transfer speeds will probably keep up with this. That in itself isn't a show stopper.

Bitcoin is also far ahead of the other crypto coins because there is now a legitimate futures market, both in CME and CBOE. This should do wonders to add stability and market efficiency. The futures are very young but as trading in that space continues, people will take far-ahead futures positions. Price discovery will improve, uncertainty will reduce, volatility will reduce.

My only real concerns are the (1) electrical power usage and (2) high transaction fees. I can see these being true show-stoppers. They would not kill bitcoin, but they would put a ceiling on the possible price... and maybe that's a good thing. Maybe approaching the limits of electrical power use will start to really smooth the price and stabilize it, eliminating the desire to speculate on huge price increases that are clearly impossible.


----------



## Frank Drebin

nathan79 said:


> That seems highly unlikely to me. There are tons of buyers between 8 and 9K.
> 
> View attachment 17657
> 
> 
> (Not making any predictions.)


Do those buy/sell walls mean_ anything_? Can they not be removed in an instant?


----------



## nathan79

Frank Drebin said:


> Do those buy/sell walls mean_ anything_? Can they not be removed in an instant?


They could be, it depends on the volume of orders. It's more useful as a measure of confidence.


----------



## indexxx

The Winklevoss barbies have lost about 600 million in two days.


----------



## james4beach

indexxx said:


> The Winklevoss barbies have lost about 600 million in two days.


I doubt it. Remember, they went to a ton of work to create a new bitcoin exchange (Gemini) and then talk the CBOE & CME into creating bitcoin futures that settle to Gemini. I'm sure the whole reason they did that was to use futures positions to lock in their tremendous gains, for exactly this reason. _You need futures_ or options to create hedges like that, so they made it happen. They created the infrastructure.

I'll bet that one of the first things they did was to sell hundreds of millions$ worth of Bitcoin futures at the crazy high price. They basically went to all this effort... creating exchanges, schmoozing with futures exchanges, marketing the futures... to lock in their massive gains.


----------



## Frank Drebin

Those Winklevoss twins and whoever else run this market are brilliant. Illegal in a regulated market but its amazing to see these calculated shakedowns/crashes and how fast they recover. You would have to think that as more people people pile into the cryptocurrency scene governments would have to step in and regulate this?


----------



## TomB19

I thought being outside of government regulation was the whole point of Bitcoin?


----------



## Frank Drebin

TomB19 said:


> I thought being outside of government regulation was the whole point of Bitcoin?


IDK, maybe they'll stand by while the public gets taken for billions of dollars in scams such as Bitconnect/Tron or the insider trading that goes on with Bitcoin. "Buyer beware".

https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/18/16905040/bitcoin-crash-cryptocurrency-value-ethereum-regulation


----------



## lonewolf :)

Listened to an audio on the internet lately where there was a conference on cryptocurrency. To attend this year had to pay in cash to get in the door unlike other years Bitcoin was not accepted.

Can not buy much with Bitcoin it first has to be sold for cash then use the cash.


----------



## james4beach

An update from my friend who's still trying to sell $150,000 worth of bitcoin. It seems he was able to sell the coins, but the problem is that *he can't withdraw the cash* from the exchange.

The one exchange he's trying, which is a big one, does not respond to his support requests, and his wire transfer attempts fail. I don't want to name the exchange because I don't want to spark withdrawals that might hurt my friend's ability to withdraw. He's tried multiple exchanges and has had endless problems. He describes it as a "nightmare".

$150,000 ... that he can't get his hands on! _He wants his money._

If he's having trouble with this, so is everyone else. This is an interesting situation with tons of people with notional, paper/electronic wealth, that they are not able to turn into real cash. Complain about stocks and bonds if you want, but they're liquid, and the broker can get the cash to me awfully quick.


----------



## olivaw

^Good warning James. Are any of these private cryptocurrency exchanges guaranteed by anything resembling deposit insurance?


----------



## doctrine

These exchange companies simply don't have any capital requirement. Most of Bitcoin is created wealth, not deposited wealth. No one deposited $200 billion in Bitcoin. I doubt it's more than a few billion worldwide. And there is no requirement for the exchange to keep the money. Deposit insurance? Laughable.

Just think. If you mined or bought 10,000 bitcoins 5 or 6 years ago, who in the hell would give you $100 million US dollars in cash? Do you think Quadriga has that kind of cash laying around?


----------



## james4beach

olivaw said:


> Are any of these private cryptocurrency exchanges *guaranteed by anything resembling deposit insurance?*


LOL !

There's a great irony here. Part of the pitch of crypto currencies was that we can't trust banks and governments... they are crooked and print money out of thin air, etc.

Now what we have with crypto currencies and their exchanges is, effectively, a fractional reserve banking system. Except there's no capital, no liquidity, no access to the central bank, no deposit insurance. And this is somehow better than traditional banks?

The exchanges are the weak point of this entire scheme. You can trade those bitcoins and dogecoins all you want electronically, and that's great, but what happens when I want my cash? Well, good luck.


----------



## 30seconds

As an experiment I will try to remove some ETH. Currently it is in coinbase so I will move it to Quadrigacx and let you know how it goes. Im going to do a minimal amount since its a long term hold for me. I hold the majority of my ETH in a cold storage wallet.


----------



## Frank Drebin

doctrine said:


> These exchange companies simply don't have any capital requirement. Most of Bitcoin is created wealth, not deposited wealth. No one deposited $200 billion in Bitcoin. I doubt it's more than a few billion worldwide. And there is no requirement for the exchange to keep the money. Deposit insurance? Laughable.
> 
> Just think. If you mined or bought 10,000 bitcoins 5 or 6 years ago, who in the hell would give you $100 million US dollars in cash? Do you think Quadriga has that kind of cash laying around?


Exactly. Its all just numbers on a screen right now. Which for the true believers isn't a bad thing I guess because one day I'll be paying for my kids college tuition in satoshis, not dollars.


----------



## Frank Drebin

30seconds said:


> As an experiment I will try to remove some ETH. Currently it is in coinbase so I will move it to Quadrigacx and let you know how it goes. Im going to do a minimal amount since its a long term hold for me. I hold the majority of my ETH in a cold storage wallet.


I can report back if you don't want to. I cashed out some ETH to CAD via Quadriga express bank transfer mid day on the 16th. The E transfer wasn't working due to high volume. I'm expecting it by tomorrow? Pray for me.


----------



## 30seconds

I am genuinely curious my self haha. Fingers crossed


----------



## Frank Drebin

30seconds said:


> I am genuinely curious my self haha. Fingers crossed


Well I'm wary of a lot of things in crypto world but I'm sure lots of people have cashed out 4-5 figs without issue. Still, would be nice to see it.


----------



## fatcat

james4beach said:


> LOL !
> 
> There's a great irony here. Part of the pitch of crypto currencies was that we can't trust banks and governments... they are crooked and print money out of thin air, etc.
> 
> Now what we have with crypto currencies and their exchanges is, effectively, a fractional reserve banking system. Except there's no capital, no liquidity, no access to the central bank, no deposit insurance. And this is somehow better than traditional banks?
> 
> The exchanges are the weak point of this entire scheme. You can trade those bitcoins and dogecoins all you want electronically, and that's great, but what happens when I want my cash? Well, good luck.


inherent in the design of the system is that with wide adoption there will be no need to withdraw your money ... 

once again james i would say that bitcoin is still in its infancy ... 

look at the last even 20 years of technological development ... what could you do on a phone in 2005 for example compared to what can you do on a phone today ? ... these systems take time to mature

you seem to expect it be slick and seamless overnight


----------



## Frank Drebin

fatcat said:


> inherent in the design of the system is that with wide adoption there will be no need to withdraw your money ...
> 
> once again james i would say that bitcoin is still in its infancy ...
> 
> look at the last even 20 years of technological development ... what could you do on a phone in 2005 for example compared to what can you do on a phone today ? ... these systems take time to mature
> 
> you seem to expect it be slick and seamless overnight


The lambo dealership better accept bitcoin is what you're saying


----------



## fatcat

Frank Drebin said:


> The lambo dealership better accept bitcoin is what you're saying


the newport beach california one does

http://spendbitcoins.com/places/c/car-dealers/


*Lamborghini Newport Beach*

Accessories, Auto Parts & Supplies, Car Dealers
1425 Baker St
Costa Mesa, California 92626
United StatesLamborghini Newport Beach is extremely proud to be the only Lamborghini factory authorized dealer for Orange County. ...and accepts bitcoins! Our mission has always been to offer the best selection of new and pre-owned vehicles in the nation. Our team combines over 75 years of experience with Lambor...


----------



## cainvest

fatcat said:


> the newport beach california one does
> 
> http://spendbitcoins.com/places/c/car-dealers/
> 
> 
> *Lamborghini Newport Beach*
> 
> Accessories, Auto Parts & Supplies, Car Dealers
> 1425 Baker St
> Costa Mesa, California 92626
> United StatesLamborghini Newport Beach is extremely proud to be the only Lamborghini factory authorized dealer for Orange County. ...and accepts bitcoins! Our mission has always been to offer the best selection of new and pre-owned vehicles in the nation. Our team combines over 75 years of experience with Lambor...


lol, I'd like to see the small print on that sales agreement when buying with bitcoin.


----------



## fatcat

i put an ad on craigslist and noticed this little tidbit:

View attachment 17666


----------



## 30seconds

Update 1. 20 hours. Still waiting for my ETH to move from my vault to the wallet on coinbase. It usually does not take this long


----------



## marina628

james4beach said:


> An update from my friend who's still trying to sell $150,000 worth of bitcoin. It seems he was able to sell the coins, but the problem is that *he can't withdraw the cash* from the exchange.
> 
> The one exchange he's trying, which is a big one, does not respond to his support requests, and his wire transfer attempts fail. I don't want to name the exchange because I don't want to spark withdrawals that might hurt my friend's ability to withdraw. He's tried multiple exchanges and has had endless problems. He describes it as a "nightmare".
> 
> $150,000 ... that he can't get his hands on! _He wants his money._
> 
> If he's having trouble with this, so is everyone else. This is an interesting situation with tons of people with notional, paper/electronic wealth, that they are not able to turn into real cash. Complain about stocks and bonds if you want, but they're liquid, and the broker can get the cash to me awfully quick.


James where does your friend live? For Canadian residents you need to go to coinsquare to cash out to a bank.


----------



## 30seconds

marina628 said:


> James where does your friend live? For Canadian residents you need to go to coinsquare to cash out to a bank.


Have you had experience with Quadrigacx? How does it compare to coinsquare


----------



## nathan79

30seconds said:


> Update 1. 20 hours. Still waiting for my ETH to move from my vault to the wallet on coinbase. It usually does not take this long


That must be an issue on Coinbase's end, because it shouldn't take more than a few minutes. The ETH network is not very congested right now. https://ethgasstation.info/

It was super slow a couple of weeks ago. I had to set my "gas" to 40 Gwei just get processed within an hour.


----------



## 30seconds

nathan79 said:


> That must be an issue on Coinbase's end, because it shouldn't take more than a few minutes. The ETH network is not very congested right now. https://ethgasstation.info/



Absolutely! It is generally never this slow. Still shows the process though.


----------



## Frank Drebin

Still waiting from quadriga. 3 days to the hour right now.


----------



## marina628

30seconds said:


> Have you had experience with Quadrigacx? How does it compare to coinsquare


No I don't use them at all.


----------



## Frank Drebin

Update my funds showed up this morning from quadriga. Little over the three days advertised.


----------



## tavogl

Coinsquare works like a charm.


----------



## forrory1

30seconds said:


> Update 1. 20 hours. Still waiting for my ETH to move from my vault to the wallet on coinbase. It usually does not take this long


Transfers from Coinbase vault to coinbase wallet are 48hr time delay by design. This is the main security feature behind the vault design, not a bug.

https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/1612208-the-coinbase-vault-




I was moving Bitcoin around last night. Transaction fees are low, it cost me a $1.50 to move much more money then my bank would allow.


Lightning Network is in Alpha mode on the main net and growing fast. Transactions settling instantly with fees at fractions of a penny USD per transaction. Real purchases being made 

http://lnstat.ideoflux.com:3000/dashboard/db/lightning-network?refresh=5m&orgId=1

R


----------



## james4beach

I think this guy's articles are spot on:

Why you can’t cash out - Why Bitcoin’s price is largely fictional

Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme! It just works like one


----------



## nathan79

james4beach said:


> I think this guy's articles are spot on:
> 
> Why you can’t cash out - Why Bitcoin’s price is largely fictional
> 
> Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme! It just works like one


He may have a few good points, but he comes across as very biased (and a bit angry). I can see that he's using this blog to promote the book he wrote, which mostly rails against Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies.

I'm not saying don't listen to him at all, but if you should balance his opinion with some from the other end of the spectrum. Look up some of Andreas Antonopoulos's videos on YouTube, for example.


----------



## Frank Drebin

Interesting piece on tether and the state of the market. If you find yourself having a hard time believing that this market is real, it's because it probably isn't.

https://news.bitcoin.com/tether-printing-press-in-high-gear-issuing-400-million-in-four-days/


----------



## off.by.10

lol the exchanges are printing their own money now? And there are fools accepting it? This is all so fascinating to watch


----------



## sags

Bitcoins are like Trump..........signs of the times.

Wealth disparity has made people desperate for solutions. It is the main topic at Davos among the world's political and economic leaders.

The latest Oxfam report is pretty dire.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/22/wef...t-1-percent-get-82-percent-of-the-wealth.html


----------



## olivaw

CNBC: *Researchers find that one person caused bitcoin to spike from $150 to $1,000 in 2013* 

The person behind the scheme used two bots to manipulate the price and acquire 600,000 bitcoin. Researchers were able to find it after the 2014 Mt.Gox hack and data dump. IMO, this doesn't prove that BTC is a sham, but it does demonstrate what happens when there is nobody in charge.


----------



## james4beach

I'd go a bit further. Yes I agree bitcoin is a sign of desperation (people need high returns because they will never retire) but also is a sign of fearlessness, forgetting what risk and losses are like.

It's not a coincidence that marijuana stocks started exploding higher around the same time bitcoin did. Check out the charts, it's quite interesting. In Q4, both marijuana stocks and bitcoin enter a manic phase. Our broker phone systems go down under the load of new retail investors opening accounts to buy pot stocks.

There's complacency and lack of fear in the stocks too, but stock investors have already been "in" for the last few years. What we're seeing now with MJ+BTC are the most marginal, late stage buyers.

But yes I do agree that underlying all of this is a general desperation for high returns. Central banks have robbed savers of the ability to earn a decent safe return with historically low interest rates. Wages are low, and retirement is impossible for most people. Even buying a home is impossible.


----------



## nathan79

Good point James. Low interest rates are really one of the worst things to happen to responsible people.

Low interest rates are only good for those who have the cash flow to service high amounts of debt. If someone can afford to pay a mortgage on a million dollar home at 2.5% interest, they probably think low interest rates are a great thing. For everyone else it's a negative thing because it's only raises the underlying price.

With 400K in cash I could buy a house outright 10 years ago; today I can't even qualify for a mortgage on the same house, even though my income is higher.


----------



## peterk

^^

Better than a credit crunch and depression...At least I can _make_ money to save at low interest rates...


----------



## olivaw

A lot of people predict that markets will collapse when interest rates increase but we don't yet know if it is going to happen that way. If the predictions are true, the interest rate driven collapse of BTC and real estate will probably bring down share prices too.


----------



## james4beach

peterk said:


> Better than a credit crunch and depression...At least I can _make_ money to save at low interest rates...


Except that this game the Federal Reserve (and other CBs) are in, continuously blowing new bubbles, just inevitably leads to excesses and then contractions.

They are not eliminating the business cycle, they're just dialing up the amplitude of the oscillations. Instead of mild growth followed by mild contraction, we get periods like this (crazy high growth & asset inflation) followed -- inevitably -- by sharp contractions or even crashes.

Look at 2008 for example. There were huge excesses before that, and it would have been natural to have several years of contraction and cooling. This would have corrected the dangerous psychology of people and stopped recklessness. Instead they pumped trillions of$ into global credit & money systems. Stocks started rallying like crazy after just a year, business activity picked up.

And nobody learned any lessons. It only reinforced the dangerous psychology, that there is no risk. The bankers continued to doing exactly what they were doing before and investors are taking on just as much risk as they did pre-2008. Very dangerous.

When this thing blows up I really hope everyone remembers that Sir Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke caused this to happen.


----------



## olivaw

james4beach said:


> When this thing blows up I really hope everyone remembers that Sir Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke caused this to happen.




*If*, not when. Nobody can predict the future of the markets. We expect that there will be a stock market correction or crash one day. We can't possibly know the timing or the scope of it.

Best strategy is to ignore all the noise and stick to your asset allocation strategy like glue.


----------



## james4beach

olivaw said:


> *If*, not when. Nobody can predict the future of the markets. We expect that there will be a stock market correction or crash one day. We can't possibly know the timing or the scope of it.
> 
> Best strategy is to ignore all the noise and *stick to your asset allocation strategy like glue.*


I agree 100%. I've chosen my asset allocation specifically so that I can invest the same way, consistently, whether we're in a bull or bear cycle.


----------



## sags

The inevitable that has to happen is that at some point the lenders have to start saying "no" to people.

Nothing like people flush with credit and borrowed money to grease the wheels of free enterprise and quell any complaints of wealth inequality.............at least for a time.

Bitcoin and Trump are part of the mirage. They too shall pass.


----------



## peterk

james4beach said:


> Except that this game the Federal Reserve (and other CBs) are in, continuously blowing new bubbles, just inevitably leads to excesses and then contractions.
> 
> They are not eliminating the business cycle, they're just dialing up the amplitude of the oscillations. Instead of mild growth followed by mild contraction, we get periods like this (crazy high growth & asset inflation) followed -- inevitably -- by sharp contractions or even crashes.
> 
> Look at 2008 for example. There were huge excesses before that, and it would have been natural to have several years of contraction and cooling. This would have corrected the dangerous psychology of people and stopped recklessness. Instead they pumped trillions of$ into global credit & money systems. Stocks started rallying like crazy after just a year, business activity picked up.
> 
> And nobody learned any lessons. It only reinforced the dangerous psychology, that there is no risk. The bankers continued to doing exactly what they were doing before and investors are taking on just as much risk as they did pre-2008. Very dangerous.
> 
> When this thing blows up I really hope everyone remembers that Sir Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke caused this to happen.


Sure that might all be true...but if it didn't happen that way you and me could very well have been jobless dudes for the past 9 years, so I'm glad. Perhaps when the crash inevitably comes, we'll be far enough along with life to be able to weather the storm. There's something to be said for delaying bad times as long as humanly possible. Guys who had the exact same life/education as me, but 3 years later, got slammed with the commodity crash... Timing is everything.


----------



## james4beach

An interesting piece of info. Apparently the credit card companies are starting to charge cash advance fees when someone buys bitcoin. Previously it was just a regular purchase.

Coinbase announcement:


> We’re writing because you have a credit card on file and want to inform you of a recent change that may increase the cost of purchasing digital currency with a credit card.
> 
> Recently, the MCC code for digital currency purchases was changed by a number of the major credit card networks. The new code will allow banks and card issuers to charge additional "cash advance" fees. These fees are not charged or collected by Coinbase. These additional fees will show up as a separate line item on your card statement.
> 
> Coinbase does not know whether or not your card issuer collects these fees, nor do we know how much they might collect. As a result, we would strongly suggest switching to a debit card or bank account as your primary payment method.


----------



## SixesAndSevens

james4beach said:


> An interesting piece of info. Apparently the credit card companies are starting to charge cash advance fees when someone buys bitcoin. Previously it was just a regular purchase.


makes total sense to me....if bitcoin is a currency then buying bitcoin is a cash advance.


----------



## james4beach

SixesAndSevens said:


> makes total sense to me....if bitcoin is a currency then buying bitcoin is a cash advance.


Similar to stocks, this is effectively a tightening of margin (withdrawing credit) from bitcoin speculators.


----------



## sags

Bitcoin tumbling down to $8700. Capitulation may be soon.


----------



## james4beach

Total crash under way. We might have to start worrying about contagion to other assets. What happens at a brokerage where people are holding bitcoin futures at 20:1 leverage and are sitting through this 50% decline?

For someone at Interactive Brokers, that means that IB will immediately (today) start liquidating their S&P 500 futures, commodity futures, etc.

The CEO of Interactive Brokers actually voiced this concern when bitcoin futures were created.


----------



## SixesAndSevens

james4beach said:


> We might have to start worrying about contagion to other assets.


it seems some of the capital is flowing back into gold.
gold is above $1,350 now USD$


----------



## new dog

James do you really think there are that many people under water in the way you described in Bitcoin?

I think another big problem will be with businesses that accepted Bitcoin for payment but didn't turn it back to cash.


----------



## james4beach

new dog said:


> James do you really think there are that many people under water in the way you described in Bitcoin?
> 
> I think another big problem will be with businesses that accepted Bitcoin for payment but didn't turn it back to cash.


Most people tend to buy near peaks (same as any market), so absolutely at the moment many people are under water.

I'm down about 30% from my average entry point. Not a big deal for me, but for people who actually put significant money in it...


----------



## doctrine

Bitcoin falls in the camp of "if your cabbie tells you about it, you're probably too late". I heard cabbies telling me their friends were borrowing money for bitcoins in Nov and Dec. And almost everyone I know has some. And they all have it, not to hedge inflation, or gold alternative, to buy things or to transfer money, but because they think it will go up. That pretty much tells you all you need to know. Didn't touch this one bit. If I was thinking about it, I would just use straight technical analysis and wait for a clear bottom, otherwise avoid.


----------



## sags

Buy bitcoins with imaginary money........and surprise surprise...........the price goes up.

http://fortune.com/2018/02/01/bitcoin-price-below-9000/


----------



## new dog

I have to admit though it went up many times higher and longer then I could have ever imagined.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

doctrine said:


> ... If I was thinking about it, I would just use straight technical analysis and wait for a clear bottom, otherwise avoid.


I don't see what's to analyse or what's to cause a bottom? This isn't like an investment with underlying assets, real estate, or cash flow. Pull back the curtain and poof, nothing there.


----------



## new dog

I agree there is not a lot to go on for TA. In fact Bitcoin could be deemed irrelevant and just go away like disco did in the 80's.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

new dog said:


> I agree there is not a lot to go on for TA. In fact Bitcoin could be deemed irrelevant and just go away like disco did in the 80's.


What? Disco is dead? 
Hmmm, maybe that's why Value Village wouldn't take my bell bottom pants and paisley shirts?
Stayin' alive, stayin' alive, hoo, hoo, hoo, hoo ....:afro:


----------



## marina628

I may be one of the longest bitcoin on this forum and I have to say until about August/September 2017 things appeared very 'normal ' but what have occurred last 6 months I cannot make sense of .I have made alot of cash on this but nothing compared to my friends , I have 3-4 friends who live in GTA who have cashed out over 1 million each and moved on.This is a bitcoin thread but there is probably more interest in other coins right now , yesterday one of my die hard bitcoin friends suggested to me that bitcoin may go to zero and another coin will be the main stream coin ie bitcoincash .I made 30% this week trading and did my weekly bitcoin $200 purchase .For the bitcoin /coinbase issue if you are using a credit card I certainly hope you are not carrying balances .


----------



## nathan79

My view is that if you invested in Bitcoin because of the technology, you should stay invested. Nothing has fundamentally changed. If anything, it continues to improve. Upgrades like segregated witness are being adopted and fees are coming down (currently only a few bucks on average). More upgrades to improve capacity and speed are in the pipeline. Lightning Network is beginning to move from testnet to mainnet.

If you invested for FOMO or get rich quick reasons, you gambled. That's fine... you didn't invest more than you could afford to lose (right?). Now would be a good time to read up on what you invested in, to determine whether you want to stay invested. If you've done your research and it still makes no sense to you, go ahead and sell... or keep gambling and see if it goes back up. Your choice.

The sell-off has been market-wide. Most coins have dropped more than Bitcoin. It's okay to diversify, but I'd caution against moving large amounts to some other coin, unless you really understand that coin and believe in the technology. I highly doubt coins like Bitcoin Cash (BCH) will have any future once the Lightning Network becomes widespread on Bitcoin.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

So am I invested in bitcoin - the technology company? 
I haven't been able to find their annual reports.
If it does continue to drop, can I at least grow flowers with it?

View attachment 17873
View attachment 17881


----------



## jargey3000

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> So am I invested in bitcoin - the technology company?
> I haven't been able to find their annual reports.
> If it does continue to drop, can I at least grow flowers with it?
> 
> View attachment 17873
> View attachment 17881


(I "get" it OMO.....nice one...)


----------



## KaeJS

BTC and Cryptocurrency is becoming too big of a thing to just "go away".
The futures, Blockchain ETFs, and the ratings are encouraging cryptocurrency to stay in our economic system. The media attention also makes it more plausible and seem normal.

Do I believe in cryptocurrency? No.
But I do mine $100/day of the stuff.

Why not? You'd be stupid not to.

For those in the know, I own:

BTC
ETH
SC
LUX
ETN


----------



## james4beach

KaeJS said:


> BTC and Cryptocurrency is becoming too big of a thing to just "go away".
> The futures, Blockchain ETFs, and the ratings are encouraging cryptocurrency to stay in our economic system. The media attention also makes it more plausible and seem normal.
> 
> Do I believe in cryptocurrency? No.
> But I do mine $100/day of the stuff.
> 
> Why not? You'd be stupid not to.
> 
> For those in the know, I own:
> 
> BTC
> ETH
> SC
> LUX
> ETN


Mine? You mean trade, right? I agree it's definitely interesting as a trading instrument.

Or do you mean actual crypto coin mining, as in you're using electric power to do mining?


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Gottcha: 
1. Big things don't go away
2. Anyone of us who have not invested in the hardware needed to 'mine' are stupid
3. Those in the know, know you're right.


----------



## new dog

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> What? Disco is dead?
> Hmmm, maybe that's why Value Village wouldn't take my bell bottom pants and paisley shirts?
> Stayin' alive, stayin' alive, hoo, hoo, hoo, hoo ....:afro:



I haven't seen this comment until now but I think we may be wrong on Staying alive because it is still a hit. It will probably still be a hit brought up from time to time, while Bitcoin is just a memory.


----------



## marina628

Not sure if i shared this with you guys but I have a few servers on a rack in Montreal and one of them got hacked in November and somebody was mining bitcoin on my server .I was surprised to learned this big company does not monitor for these things or add extra costs.Long story short , we blocked off some ports and I scrubbed the server as it was not important for us but now am wondering if i should use the sucker for mining as in 10 days they mined .15 bitcoin and that was on restricted access.


----------



## nathan79

^ Dang, that must be one powerful server. What kind of hardware are you running in that thing?

I think what really happened is they installed software that hijacked other remote computers to mine for them. There are scripts you can install on websites that use the viewer's CPU and GPU to mine covertly. If installed on a site that gets a fairly high amount of traffic, it can be lucrative. Several sites have been caught doing this, and it's generally frowned upon. 

Almost all legitimate Bitcoin mining these days is done with specialized ASICs. I gave up CPU and GPU mining years ago simply because it wasn't worth it for a couple bucks a day. When I hear someone talking about making ~$100 a day, I'm skeptical, because I know that's only possible with a massive amount of hardware.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> When I hear someone talking about making ~$100 a day, I'm skeptical, because I know that's only possible with a massive amount of hardware.


 versus from post #600:



> ...Do I believe in cryptocurrency? No.
> But I do mine $100/day of the stuff.
> 
> Why not? You'd be stupid not to. ...


... so who do we believe? in this cryto$$$making machine named BITCOIN? bit of a coin or cornbits?


----------



## Beaver101

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> What? Disco is dead?
> Hmmm, maybe that's why Value Village wouldn't take my *bell bottom pants and paisley shirts?*
> Stayin' alive, stayin' alive, hoo, hoo, hoo, hoo ....





OnlyMyOpinion said:


> So am I invested in bitcoin - the technology company?
> I haven't been able to find their annual reports.
> *If it does continue to drop, can I at least grow flowers with it?*
> 
> View attachment 17873
> View attachment 17881


 ... ROFL!!!


----------



## sags

When I can fill in the blank I will reconsider bitcoins to be viable.

_I need to buy some bitcoins because.............?
_


----------



## marina628

nathan79 said:


> ^ Dang, that must be one powerful server. What kind of hardware are you running in that thing?
> 
> I think what really happened is they installed software that hijacked other remote computers to mine for them. There are scripts you can install on websites that use the viewer's CPU and GPU to mine covertly. If installed on a site that gets a fairly high amount of traffic, it can be lucrative. Several sites have been caught doing this, and it's generally frowned upon.
> 
> Almost all legitimate Bitcoin mining these days is done with specialized ASICs. I gave up CPU and GPU mining years ago simply because it wasn't worth it for a couple bucks a day. When I hear someone talking about making ~$100 a day, I'm skeptical, because I know that's only possible with a massive amount of hardware.


We have 2 servers this one is a secondary server Dual Intel Xeon E5-2630 V3 it cost us around $800 a month .Yes they installed some program and it was sending coins to their address.The only reason I caught it is that is is hosting one of our forums and it was running like crap .We literally discovered the bitcoin thing as we were dealing with my husabnd's brother dying so it was not top on the list that week.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> When I can fill in the blank I will reconsider bitcoins to be viable.
> 
> _I need to buy some bitcoins because.............?
> _


 ... let me help you with the blanks,

... it's hip. Even saying "bitcoins, bitcoins, cornbits,.. " sounds like poptart music.
... it makes me look up to date with technology. I mean, "Hey, I get to "mine" bitcoins, can you do that?"
... it makes me sound intellectually smart too. As you can see bitcoin uses AI (or is it IA eventually for me?), blockchain, blab, blab, blab,. high tech gizmos terms, etc.
... But best of all, bitcoins can make me RICH overnight while I'm sleeping! No work required ... ,maybe dreaming counts as work?


----------



## nathan79

^ Sounds like middle-aged people mocking computers and the internet in the 90's. Now most of them are on Facebook... lol.

Of course, there are still some elderly people who are not online. I expect it will be the same with cryptocurrencies in 20 years.


----------



## nathan79

sags said:


> When I can fill in the blank I will reconsider bitcoins to be viable.
> 
> _I need to buy some bitcoins because.............?
> _


I'm buying a used car, and the seller accepts cash or cryptocurrencies. Since I don't like carrying large amounts of cash, Bitcoin makes more sense. It's more secure and doesn't need to be counted.

Even if the seller accepted a bank draft, I would have to accompany them to the bank to prove it's not fake. Bitcoin is faster and easier.


----------



## jargey3000

new dog said:


> I haven't seen this comment until now but I think we may be wrong on Staying alive because it is still a hit. It will probably still be a hit brought up from time to time, while Bitcoin is just a memory.


Sorry, but no discussion of disco hits is complete without mentioning Donna Summer. "I Feel Love". my friend
Or, one of my favs "Disco Inferno" ...burn that mother down...
man, I had the moves, back in '77 !!! i'm not 'jive talkin' either, my man! get down!


----------



## Beaver101

nathan79 said:


> ^ Sounds like middle-aged people mocking computers and the internet in the 90's. Now most of them are on Facebook... lol.
> 
> Of course, there are still some elderly people who are not online. I expect it will be the same with cryptocurrencies in 20 years.


... and I guess those who buys into bitcoins now will be as perpetually young as the currency-flavour of the day in the future. 

Btw, why do we need bitcoins when we already have a sub cashless society with credit cards, wire-transfers, and the likes systems, etc.? Or tell me it's legal tender already? Or is it a make-shift project for another $$$-making scheme.


----------



## nathan79

Beaver101 said:


> ... and I guess those who buys into bitcoins now will be as perpetually young as the currency-flavour of the day in the future.
> 
> Btw, why do we need bitcoins when we already have a sub cashless society with credit cards, wire-transfers, and the likes systems, etc.? Or tell me it's legal tender already? Or is it a make-shift project for another $$$-making scheme.


Wire transfers are slow and expensive, credit cards are expensive for merchants. If you need more reasons: https://www.weusecoins.com/why-use-bitcoin/

Another emerging use case is for "micropayments" which will be enabled by Bitcoin's Lightning Network.

It's also important to remember that all use cases for any new technology aren't immediately obvious. The internet was around for several years before the world wide web was developed, and then we were still many years away from things like YouTube, Facebook, etc.


----------



## sags

I use email transfers all the time. They are fast, secure and cheap.

For me to have to buy the bitcoins for a transaction would be creating unnecessary requirements.

Bitcoins also require precise accounting for taxation purposes.


----------



## nathan79

Interac e-transfer is not a bad product, but fairly limited in how much you can send and where.


----------



## Frank Drebin

The more and more time I spend reading about bitcoin and cryptos in general, the more convinced I am that this is the biggest dupe of our generation. Its being sold as something that it (blockchain) will change the world like the internet did. The possibilities are so vast but no one can think of one real world example of what could possibly happen besides inventing currencies and hoping to get in early before "mass adoption"

There is nothing that bitcoin can offer now that is advantageous over fiat. And for all the advancements that bitcoin has planned for the future, the traditional banking system will also be making innovations. Take email money transfer for example.

Crypto is about inventing currencies, getting in on the ground floor, and trying to promote mass adoption. Nothing more.


----------



## james4beach

Frank Drebin said:


> Crypto is about inventing currencies, getting in on the ground floor, and trying to promote mass adoption. Nothing more.


It's also an attempt by millennials to get rich, against seemingly endless obstacles the modern economy presents (no job security, no pensions, unaffordable housing, and automation).

The current excitement in crypto currencies is really about desperation IMO. A millennial says to themselves: there is no way I will ever afford a home or retire. At least if I try this route, I have a chance of ending up with some real money.

And I somewhat agree with them. The average millennial household that might earn 60K income in full time work (if they're lucky enough to find any) and who buys a 600K home can't possibly build enough wealth for a comfortable life or retirement. The equation has no solution.

Crypto currency gambling offers a hope. And if their coins crash & burn? Big deal... they're not any worse off.

I don't agree with this logic but I think this might be what people are thinking. I think they will be worse off once they lose money in crypto currency gambling.


----------



## 319905

One picture, ten thousand words ... https://coinmarketcap.com/charts/


----------



## forrory1

sags said:


> I use email transfers all the time. They are fast, secure and cheap.
> 
> For me to have to buy the bitcoins for a transaction would be creating unnecessary requirements.
> 
> Bitcoins also require precise accounting for taxation purposes.


If you have to create a bank account to send EMT it would take you days.
Blockchain is the best record keeping software I've used. You can't plug numbers and falsify entries. I can see every transaction I ever made and the exact time (so can everyone else). No paper record keeping required on my end (What year is it?). Not to mention how do prove your paper records are accurate?

Email money transfer today costs $1.50 vs Bitcoin sent over the last week cost less than 5 cents for high priority.
Email money transfer could take an hour or 2 before you get an email vs Bitcoin you'll see the transaction the memory pool in seconds.
Email money transfer has limit of $3000 weekly? vs Bitcoin no limit ever. What kind of car are you buying for 3k?
Email money transfer is reversible for up to a week? or more? vs Bitcoin impossible to reverse (trustless). I wouldn't accept EMT from anyone I didn't trust/know.
Email money transfer requires other parties bank support EMT, no credit unions no outside Canada transfers vs Bitcoin which knows no boarders, transactions can be made to a piece of paper etc
Email money transfer security vs Bitcoin security..... the list goes on. Probably why banks are jumping on the blockchain tech. 


This logic is akin to the following statements made in the past.
Why would we ever need light bulbs? Candles work.
Cars? Horses eat hay.
TV? Radio is great.
Email? We have paper mail.
Cell phones? I got a phone at home.
24/7 internet connect? See every home internet/phone service sold today.
Pace makers, personal computers, smart phones, streaming media, baby monitors, seat belts, airbags.

If the "kids" are using it along with a few billionaires/funds investing in it there might be something there you aren't seeing yet.

Progress. It will happen with or without you.

R


----------



## hboy54

Saying that blockchain is potentially useful does nothing to convince me that bitcoin has a value greater than zero. Plus most of the advantages you listed are not technology weaknesses of other payment methods, they are current policy weaknesses and policy can be changed.

Hboy54


----------



## Frank Drebin

forrory1 said:


> If you have to create a bank account to send EMT it would take you days.
> Blockchain is the best record keeping software I've used. You can't plug numbers and falsify entries. I can see every transaction I ever made and the exact time (so can everyone else). No paper record keeping required on my end (What year is it?). Not to mention how do prove your paper records are accurate?
> 
> Email money transfer today costs $1.50 vs Bitcoin sent over the last week cost less than 5 cents for high priority.
> Email money transfer could take an hour or 2 before you get an email vs Bitcoin you'll see the transaction the memory pool in seconds.
> Email money transfer has limit of $3000 weekly? vs Bitcoin no limit ever. What kind of car are you buying for 3k?
> Email money transfer is reversible for up to a week? or more? vs Bitcoin impossible to reverse (trustless). I wouldn't accept EMT from anyone I didn't trust/know.
> Email money transfer requires other parties bank support EMT, no credit unions no outside Canada transfers vs Bitcoin which knows no boarders, transactions can be made to a piece of paper etc
> Email money transfer security vs Bitcoin security..... the list goes on. Probably why banks are jumping on the blockchain tech.
> 
> 
> This logic is akin to the following statements made in the past.
> Why would we ever need light bulbs? Candles work.
> Cars? Horses eat hay.
> TV? Radio is great.
> Email? We have paper mail.
> Cell phones? I got a phone at home.
> 24/7 internet connect? See every home internet/phone service sold today.
> Pace makers, personal computers, smart phones, streaming media, baby monitors, seat belts, airbags.
> 
> If the "kids" are using it along with a few billionaires/funds investing in it there might be something there you aren't seeing yet.
> 
> Progress. It will happen with or without you.
> 
> R


Snake oil? Let me buy some.

Increase limits and exposure, while reducing fees of EMT.

Last week I sold a car for one bitcoin, now I need two bitcoins to buy that car back. 
Accidentally sent BTC to the wrong address? Whoops gone forever.


This is a great vid, the poor guy is almost crying as a devoted holder of Bitcoin. Watch from about 1hr8mins on. In about 10 minutes he tears bitcoin apart to shreds. (Warning:Language)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX1BjDHhuVk&feature=youtu.be&t=4092

*It will never work, and its not the world changing technology you pretend its going to be*

If anyone wants an interesting read, _Attack of the 50 foot Blockchain_ by David Gerard is great.


----------



## forrory1

hboy54 said:


> Saying that blockchain is potentially useful does nothing to convince me that bitcoin has a value greater than zero. Plus most of the advantages you listed are not technology weaknesses of other payment methods, they are current policy weaknesses and policy can be changed.
> 
> Hboy54


I'm not trying to convince anyone here of anything. Everyone here drives cars, uses light bulbs, is connected to the internet with a personal computer or smartphone and uses email. Only time will tell if this tech is adopted and successful. 

Policy change... that's a whole bucket of worms I rather not open.

I was only returning responses to the recurring statements posted here regarding why Bitcoin is useless/not required. 

For example one of the favorites is price fluctuation. I failed to see why an item whose price is in flux is rendered useless? This is called price discovery it happens when things are new/changing and/or the impacts of which are not fully understood. I am willing to pay a different amount for an item then someone else based on what I perceive as value. This is a technology that is in development making statements regarding current issues which are being address (have known solutions) is the equivalent of "gasoline is dangerous" or "seat belts" are inconvenient.


Frank Drebin is referring to it as Snake Oil... "a product, policy, etc. of little real worth or value that is promoted as the solution to a problem" Better call your bank and warn them about the snake oil they are trying to implement. 

R


----------



## Frank Drebin

forrory1 said:


> Frank Drebin is referring to it as Snake Oil... "a product, policy, etc. of little real worth or value that is promoted as the solution to a problem" Better call your bank and warn them about the snake oil they are trying to implement.
> 
> R


Yep. Bitcoin is trying to replace fiat money and all of the headaches associated with it. There are solutions within the fiat environment, we don't need to invent a new currency to fix these problems. 

It is absolutely useless at its original purpose (peer to peer electronic cash) and its new made up purpose (store of wealth, digital godl) because of its wild relationship to the worlds stable currencies. It is a speculative commodity, worth only what you are able to sell it for.


----------



## forrory1

Frank Drebin said:


> Yep. Bitcoin is trying to replace fiat money and all of the headaches associated with it. There are solutions within the fiat environment, we don't need to invent a new currency to fix these problems.
> 
> It is absolutely useless at its original purpose (peer to peer electronic cash) and its new made up purpose (store of wealth, digital godl) because of its wild relationship to the worlds stable currencies. It is a speculative commodity, worth only what you are able to sell it for.


Fiat Money - Investopedia
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fiatmoney.asp
Fiat money is currency that a government has declared to be legal tender, but it is not backed by a physical commodity.

If fiat is so great why are governments around the world moving towards completely digital money? Let's not talk about the value of the falling dollar, or the propensity/whim of governments to keep their "promises". After all that is all fiat is correct? A promise from the (US) government with 47 years of experience. Fiat is the best solution we had to date and before that it was the gold standard. This is the evolution of money. 

To me there is an obvious advantage/value of a truly digital decentralized programmable currency based on consensus rules over todays fiat environment. If bitcoin is superior to what it replaces it will overcome. If not it will fail. Bitcoin is in it's 9th year of living in the wild online not protected by policy or law and continues to grow. 

R


----------



## peterk

forrory1 said:


> Fiat money is currency that a government has declared to be legal tender, but it is not backed by a physical commodity.


Like some lump of shiny rock? or a computer algorithm that requires the continues operation of a vast network of interconnected electrical systems?

Fiat is backed by the 2nd most powerful thing in the world, military might, and the most powerful thing in the world, the consensus of the people.


----------



## forrory1

peterk said:


> Like some lump of shiny rock? or a computer algorithm that requires the continues operation of a vast network of interconnected electrical systems?
> 
> Fiat is backed by the 2nd most powerful thing in the world, military might, and the most powerful thing in the world, the consensus of the people.


So a government will use military might against it's people? 

Governments should fear their people not the other way around.

Maybe you grew up in a different time...
R


----------



## cainvest

Since Bitcoin (or others like it) can't be used as a currency in everyday use there is no point in having it except to gamble on it's potential value.


----------



## peterk

forrory1 said:


> So a government will use military might against it's people?
> 
> Governments should fear their people not the other way around.
> 
> Maybe you grew up in a different time...
> R


Oh of course not, wars have _never_ been started over control of the money system before.... :rolleyes2:
And I said the 2nd most powerful thing, didn't I.

Sure it's possibly crypto could usurp the power of money, via the will of the people....I'd expect a GD war over it though. It ain't just going to happen nicely because of the enlightened understanding of a few computer nerds who think it's a swell idea.


----------



## Frank Drebin

forrory1 said:


> Fiat Money - Investopedia
> https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fiatmoney.asp
> Fiat money is currency that a government has declared to be legal tender, but it is not backed by a physical commodity.
> 
> If fiat is so great why are governments around the world moving towards completely digital money? Let's not talk about the value of the falling dollar, or the propensity/whim of governments to keep their "promises". After all that is all fiat is correct? A promise from the (US) government with 47 years of experience. Fiat is the best solution we had to date and before that it was the gold standard. This is the evolution of money.
> 
> To me there is an obvious advantage/value of a truly digital decentralized programmable currency based on consensus rules over todays fiat environment. If bitcoin is superior to what it replaces it will overcome. If not it will fail. Bitcoin is in it's 9th year of living in the wild online not protected by policy or law and continues to grow.
> 
> R


I'm of the opinion that a dollar isn't an investment, or an asset. Its simply a means of exchange.

50 years ago someone might have been working for $1.00 an hour. They might have been able to buy a loaf of bread for 30c. 
Today, a person might work for $10.00 an hour, and they might be able to buy a loaf of bread for $3.00.

All that dollar does is allow that person to exchange their 18 minutes of work for a loaf of bread.

The biggest benefit that fiat has, is that it has an agreed value. We can agree that my $1.00 today will have a similar purchasing power 6 months down the road. We also agree that my $1.00 will have less purchasing power 10 years from now. It does not have to be backed by anything of value, it just has to have stable value. Which the government does by regulating the money supply.

The gold standard was abandoned my most countries during the great depression. Why? Because people were hoarding wealth, increasing the deflationary effects. Same goes for bitcoin. It will never be a currency. How can a deflationary currency encourage lending, spending and investing with a growing population?

How am I supposed to get paid in bitcoin? Progressively less satoshis every month? How are you going to structure a loan in bitcoin?

Bitcoin is not growing as a currency. It is getting increased exposure, which is due to its rise in its speculative value.

Let me ask you this, what percentage of your annual spending last year was done in bitcoin?


----------



## cablex

people hoard wealth because they dont want to consume
forcing people to consume wont end well either


----------



## Frank Drebin

If you want to save while protecting your purchasing power there are very secure ways of doing that. GIC for example.


----------



## new dog

forrory1 said:


> So a government will use military might against it's people?
> 
> Governments should fear their people not the other way around.
> 
> Maybe you grew up in a different time...
> R


Governments say that you must pay your taxes,fees,fines using their fiat currency so you need that currency. You don't however need Bitcoin unless you want to speculate in it.


----------



## forrory1

new dog said:


> Governments say that you must pay your taxes,fees,fines using their fiat currency so you need that currency. You don't however need Bitcoin unless you want to speculate in it.


This is FUD.

https://www.coindesk.com/swiss-city-bitcoin-payments-government-services/

Arizona state bill 1091, sponsored by Republican state Senator Warren Petersen and co-sponsored by three other GOP legislators, would allow Arizona residents to pay their state income taxes using cryptocurrencies.

The text of the bill, which was introduced on Jan. 9, states that, in addition to physical checks, the State of Arizona will accept income tax payments made through a “payment gateway, such as bitcoin or other cryptocurrency, using electronic peer-to-peer systems.”

R


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## sags

Bitcoin price has collapsed to $6400...........from $20,000. Every dollar decline envelopes more people into incurring losses.

Credit card companies will no longer allow bitcoin purchases. They say customers bought bitcoins hoping to sell for a profit.

The people now owe more than the bitcoins are worth plus high interest charges. The banks are concerned that people cannot repay the debt.


----------



## forrory1

Frank Drebin said:


> I'm of the opinion that a dollar isn't an investment, or an asset. Its simply a means of exchange.
> 
> The biggest benefit that fiat has, is that it has an agreed value.... Which the government does by regulating the money supply.
> 
> The gold standard was abandoned my most countries during the great depression. Why? Because people were hoarding wealth, increasing the deflationary effects. Same goes for bitcoin. It will never be a currency. How can a deflationary currency encourage lending, spending and investing with a growing population?
> 
> Let me ask you this, what percentage of your annual spending last year was done in bitcoin?


Yet people "invest" in the US dollar why? Because it's safer then their countries crummy currency. It is the "best" option today.

"Agreed value." Who has agreed to this value and who possesses the power to change the agreed value?

Credit cards and Heloc encourage spending. Consumers don't have an issue with spending it's the other way around. You're focusing on problems we don't have today and what if's. This is fear of the unknown. What is known are the current problems with our system.

Taking the control of money away from banks/governments is a long term positive as is increased transparency. Bankster bailouts, bank deposit levys, hyperinflation and governments weponizing on the financial system have no positives. Banks should go back to being banks and protecting our deposits.

In the age of information/technology money should flow freely as it is just information and information wants to be free. Money gram, international wires and 5 business day waits will fade into history. 

I don't have a % for you but tips, amazon, Expedia, newegg also between friends we use bitcoin to balance our bills. I have also gifted it. I have no problem spending Bitcoin as I just rebuy what I spent. Bitcoin is not a perfect technology yet, or a functioning currency but to saying it never will be is just opinion.

SEC to meet with congress today to talk about regulation of cyprto. I don't see a ban in the cards which leads me to believe they see some use in the technology. 

R


----------



## forrory1

sags said:


> Bitcoin price has collapsed to $6400...........from $20,000. Every dollar decline envelopes more people into incurring losses.
> 
> Credit card companies will no longer allow bitcoin purchases. They say customers bought bitcoins hoping to sell for a profit.
> 
> The people now owe more than the bitcoins are worth plus high interest charges. The banks are concerned that people cannot repay the debt.


FUD.

I still buy bitcoin via credit card. My credit card still allows it... VISA. Bitcoin is volatile, yes sir! Bitcoin is in price discovery this is expected and has been seen many times in the past, nobody is surprised except the delusional. 

I am more concerned with my stock portfolio currently. The most stable economy/market is the world just dropped by a % never before seen. losses are now in the trillions and nobody has a good reason for it.

R


----------



## Frank Drebin

forrory1 said:


> Yet people "invest" in the US dollar why? Because it's safer then their countries crummy currency. It is the "best" option today.
> 
> "Agreed value." Who has agreed to this value and who possesses the power to change the agreed value?


The entire world agrees to the value of stable currency. You and I agree that if a bottle of pop costs $2.00 today, it is very likely to cost that in 6 months. And while I don't have power to change the value of my currency (the government does) I have even less power controlling the value of my bitcoin, as it is controlled by the major stakeholders/whales.



forrory1 said:


> You're focusing on problems we don't have today and what if's. This is fear of the unknown. What is known are the current problems with our system.


I actually think that is the case for bitcoin. Its a solution running around looking for a problem.



forrory1 said:


> In the age of information/technology money should flow freely as it is just information and information wants to be free. Money gram, international wires and 5 business day waits will fade into history.


 Yep, and technologies like paying with your phone and email money will replace them. Whats stopping banks from using the blockchain for fiat?


forrory1 said:


> I have no problem spending Bitcoin as I just rebuy what I spent.


. So you're not spending it. You're pretending to spend it, because you replace it later.



forrory1 said:


> SEC to meet with congress today to talk about regulation of cyprto. I don't see a ban in the cards which leads me to believe they see some use in the technology.
> 
> R


I don't see bans either. I have no problems with the technology existing, I have a problem with the corrupt markets creating a false demand and hype. If you want to continue the cycle of buying and "spending" bitcoin so you can pretend its a currency thats fine with me. If there is a vendor that accepts cans of soup as payment, that doesn't mean that cans of soup are a currency. 

Cryptos will be around forever as a niche market, its biggest customers will be for those that want to move money around without the government knowing, but there will always be speculation in the space.

Regulations will hopefully eliminate all of the stuff that brought bitcoin to the public eye, like the Willy/Marcus bots, tether injection, spoofing, wash trading, etc.


----------



## nathan79

forrory1 said:


> FUD.
> 
> I still buy bitcoin via credit card. My credit card still allows it... VISA. Bitcoin is volatile, yes sir! Bitcoin is in price discovery this is expected and has been seen many times in the past, nobody is surprised except the delusional.
> 
> I am more concerned with my stock portfolio currently. The most stable economy/market is the world just dropped by a % never before seen. losses are now in the trillions and nobody has a good reason for it.
> 
> R


I'm pretty sure sags is a communist. He will go to great lengths to list a myriad of problems with Bitcoin, no matter how minor or solvable they may be. He's been at this for years now. At the same time he ignores all of the shortcomings of the traditional monetary system... and yet he complains about bank bailouts... lol.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Bitcoin price has collapsed to $6400...........from $20,000. Every dollar decline envelopes more people into incurring losses.


7,200 in current trading. That's -65% from the previous peak, obviously a sharp decline but I'm not sure I'd call it toast yet. This thing has always been volatile.

As for the credit cards, that whole thing smells a bit dirty to me. For Visa & Mastercard, bitcoin represents a threat because it's an alternate payment mechanism. By taking these steps they can directly harm a competing payment system, so I think the motivations are about far more than fear of bill non-payments.

They would love to destroy crypto currencies if they can.


----------



## sags

Satoshi.............come back and save bitcoins. It has fallen down and can't get back up.


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## sags

Satoshi owns 10% of all the bitcoins. What kind of a currency can it be when 1 person owns 10% and a handful of others own another 10% ?


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## james4beach

I'm not saying Bitcoin is viable as a payment mechanism (it isn't) but the technology will improve.


----------



## Frank Drebin

james4beach said:


> 7,200 in current trading. That's -65% from the previous peak, obviously a sharp decline but I'm not sure I'd call it toast yet. This thing has always been volatile.
> 
> As for the credit cards, that whole thing smells a bit dirty to me. For Visa & Mastercard, bitcoin represents a threat because it's an alternate payment mechanism. By taking these steps they can directly harm a competing payment system, so I think the motivations are about far more than fear of bill non-payments.
> 
> They would love to destroy crypto currencies if they can.


I think most reasonable crypto traders can see the logic in banning CC payments. You can't buy any other type of security with a credit card.


----------



## Frank Drebin

sags said:


> Satoshi owns 10% of all the bitcoins. What kind of a currency can it be when 1 person owns 10% and a handful of others own another 10% ?


Richard Heart (longtime bitcoin bull) basically tears apart bitcoin from about the 1:00 mark to about 1:25. From the current state of the market, to its usefulness, to the behavior of its holders

warning: language

https://youtu.be/w8_1JFE_9dI?t=3509


----------



## sags

Talking to bitcoin fans is like talking to people involved in tax avoidance scams. They are blind to the truth.


----------



## off.by.10

Yeah, bitcoin is like a religion. There's no point in arguing with them as they left rational tought behind a long time ago. It's a fun experiment to study though, on many different levels.


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## forrory1

sags said:


> Talking to bitcoin fans is like talking to people involved in tax avoidance scams. They are blind to the truth.


SEC and CFTC chairman don't share your thoughts. Unless they were lying to the senate yesterday and the senate is a bunch of fools who believed them. 

Looks like some smart people in power have recognized the legitimacy of Bitcoin and it's tech. Regulation will come to protect the ignorant from themselves and fraudsters. The government that gives value to your currency has no dismissed this technology but is choosing to embrace it. This will welcome many more investment dollars.

Bitcoin up 40% from its low.


SAGS you still using gold to buy things?

R


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## Frank Drebin

If the sec/ctfc can bring some legitimacy to the markets i can definitely see cryto growing organically. Stuff like wash trading, manipulation, spoofing etc. And even if tether is legit (i don't think they are) regular audits should be a normal occurrence.

Basically, a fair and transparent market place needs to be established to determine real interest. Right now it's all price chasing and FOMO that's driving the market, not demand for its actual utility, which the sec guy and i are still confused on if there is any.


----------



## Frank Drebin

Now here is a thought: the usa has conceded that crypto won't go away. 

What if they developed a crypto to replace paper cash? Untraceable like cash but (actually) backed by the usd? 

If every country was to to the same, what would that do to the crypto markets?


----------



## forrory1

Frank Drebin said:


> Now here is a thought: the usa has conceded that crypto won't go away.
> 
> What if they developed a crypto to replace paper cash? Untraceable like cash but (actually) backed by the usd?
> 
> If every country was to to the same, what would that do to the crypto markets?


This is a likely scenario. I would see that as a step in the right direction for the USD. I think creating USD Coin would help keep USD as the world reserve currency.

USD Coin would be a direct challenge to Bitcoin as a currency absolutely. Bitcoin might be pushed even further towards Gold 2.0 status. This is because I couldn't see the US Gov. creating USD Coin as a deflationary currency and exchange from Fait USD to USD Coin would be much easier. Also USD Coin would have instant legitimacy.

They could save a lot of money not having to run the US Fed Mint! 

I wonder if they would keep it open source (NSA wouldn't like that). Would it be Mine-able? How would they secure the chain? It would be a high risk target for attack by other nations....

I think for other countries is would just provide and easier way to move out of your host countries currency. Many counties have crappy currency with terrible inflation stability. 

R


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## Frank Drebin

forrory1 said:


> This is a likely scenario. I would see that as a step in the right direction for the USD. I think creating USD Coin would help keep USD as the world reserve currency.
> 
> USD Coin would be a direct challenge to Bitcoin as a currency absolutely. Bitcoin might be pushed even further towards Gold 2.0 status. This is because I couldn't see the US Gov. creating USD Coin as a deflationary currency and exchange from Fait USD to USD Coin would be much easier. Also USD Coin would have instant legitimacy.
> 
> They could save a lot of money not having to run the US Fed Mint!
> 
> I wonder if they would keep it open source (NSA wouldn't like that). Would it be Mine-able? How would they secure the chain? It would be a high risk target for attack by other nations....
> 
> I think for other countries is would just provide and easier way to move out of your host countries currency. Many counties have crappy currency with terrible inflation stability.
> 
> R


Interesting times for sure. I was just thinking more than likely in 10-15 years from now wallets will be obsolete.

Credit payments through your phone
Digital identification
Digital cash

You may be wondering why I seem to attack bitcoin so much, here's my reasoning.

It basically started out in the dark web, and was primarily used to purchase illicit goods and services.
It has been involved in many scams and hacks where bitcoins were essentially stolen

This leads me to the conclusion that a large percentage of bitcoin holders (early adopters) are people that sell drugs, hack exchanges, run ponzi's, steal etc.

In a world where bitcoin rules, these people are kings of the world. I'll take the devil I know over the devil I don't.

Whats your thoughts on this?


----------



## nathan79

Frank Drebin said:


> It basically started out in the dark web, and was primarily used to purchase illicit goods and services.
> It has been involved in many scams and hacks where bitcoins were essentially stolen
> 
> This leads me to the conclusion that a large percentage of bitcoin holders (early adopters) are people that sell drugs, hack exchanges, run ponzi's, steal etc.
> 
> In a world where bitcoin rules, these people are kings of the world. I'll take the devil I know over the devil I don't.
> 
> Whats your thoughts on this?


It started out as a bunch of nerds mining bitcoins with their CPUs and GPUs. (I know, I was one).

Of course, people using the dark web saw the potential and adopted it as their currency of choice. But there's no evidence they comprise more than small percentage of users. 

It's like saying that because some banks were caught laundering money, that most people in the banking industry are money launderers. It's falsehoods based on anecdotal evidence and designed to spread fear.


----------



## forrory1

Yes, I have similar thoughts. Bitcoin seems to be have been developed with great intentions but throughout its journey some nefarious characters have jumped on board. Bitcoin got dragged through the mud and is only now washing off these stains. Regulations and mainstream adoption will help with this (KYC rules etc).

Last article I read on this issue stated 1% of Bitcoin transactions today are illicit in nature. Who knows...
https://news.bitcoin.com/new-resear...it-funds-less-than-1-of-bitcoin-transactions/ 

Digital ID... We need this badly. Our passports are paper, lose it on vacation and you're living a nightmare. Pretty sure everyone is tired of memorizing/forgetting passwords and pin codes. Only to have online services operated by professional (enterprise grade security) get hacked (yahoo, equifax, election hacking etc) and compromise all our personal information. I would like to be in control of my Digital ID and revoke the rights to it from services I no longer use or trust.
https://www.ibm.com/blockchain/identity/

Being involved with Bitcoin I've noticed is just how bad cyber security is. Highest level of security can only be had with PAPER or air-gapped computers. We need a different approach such as open source hardware, serious encryption and two factor authentication. We need world-class and planetary-grade security moving forward.

I've wondered about early adopters who hold 1000s of coins. Who are these people, most will not be independently wealthy without Bitcoin. I feel these coins will make it back to the market as millionaire are created and the fear of losing your new found wealth over comes their desire to HODL. 

Now the 1 Million coins held by Bitcoins creator/creators... These coins have never been touched. Keys could be lost, owner could be dead or just not interested in being a billionaire (maybe the first trillionaire). Maybe they are waiting and will donate it all to a greater cause. 

R


----------



## sags

Oh I see now.........terrorism, criminal activity and tax evasion don't matter to governments anymore.


----------



## sags

Who are all the legitimate retailers accepting bitcoin as payment ?


----------



## sags

How does anonymous and non refundable work in the real world ?

Try opening up a retail store and telling customers they can never get a refund and see what happens.


----------



## sags

All of the blockchain's problems are going to be "fixed" by third party applications which removes all the promise of bitcoin security.


----------



## Frank Drebin

sags said:


> Who are all the legitimate retailers accepting bitcoin as payment ?


Doesn't matter. "Bitcoin accepted here" is just an advertisement to promote bitcoin. No one uses it.

I've gotten into hockey games with a donation to the food bank in lieu of admission. That doesn't make Kraft Dinner a currency now does it?

Even the bitcoin enthusiasts don't use it as a currency, they pretend its a currency by "spending" it only to replace the satoshis they spent.


----------



## james4beach

If you want some entertainment, go on youtube and search for something like "bitcoin is the future" and find the videos pumping the bitcoin story. I almost laughed all the way through one of them.

There actually is something interesting about bitcoin, but the way these young men pitch it is just hilarious (and misleading). In one video they were talking about how it's the future of micropayments... oh really? With the $10 to $20 transaction fees? And then the video will talk about keeping the government out of our pockets, because if we want to do international weapons deals or drug trades, that's our right and the government has no right to stop us.

Funny stuff. Oh, I found the video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pWblf8COH4&feature=youtu.be

(I own a small amount of bitcoin as a technical trade)


----------



## Frank Drebin

https://www.rbc.ru/society/09/02/2018/5a7d41c79a79471e96ee2fc0

Heres an article in Russian saying 100k bitcoin siezed from another Ross Ulbrich type character, running an underground marketplace.



> In the US, Medvedev is considered one of the creators of the Internet site Infraud, whose name derives from her slogan In Fraud We Trust ("We believe in fraud"), the investigation against which is conducted by the FBI.
> 
> US law enforcement agencies believe that it was used to trade stolen credit card data, fake identity cards, stolen financial information and other illegal goods.


When Mt.Gox was hacked, over 650,000 btc that were stolen were never accounted for. That's like 3% of the entire supply.


But your right Nathan, there is no way to prove that large sums of bitcoin are in criminals hands, and I'm probably just spreading fud.


----------



## new dog

Head of the world bank says cryptocurrencies are like a ponzi scheme.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-are-like-ponzi-schemes-world-bank-chief-says


----------



## nathan79

The vast majority pretty much are. There are over 1500 different coins and tokens. A few dozen of those might last beyond five years.


----------



## cablex

Globally there are over tens of thousands of stock tickers to trade especially list like https://www.coingecko.com/en/ico
ICO or tokens are as such because its a global market and majority are securities looking as people take the old model to make it work with crypto.
Conslidation will happen and we will see more creative use of financing and utilities.


----------



## cainvest

nathan79 said:


> The vast majority pretty much are. There are over 1500 different coins and tokens. A few dozen of those might last beyond five years.


Kind of reminds me of the dot.com bubble from 1999, big hype without anything really good or worthwhile behind it.


----------



## nathan79

cainvest said:


> Kind of reminds me of the dot.com bubble from 1999, big hype without anything really good or worthwhile behind it.


Well, it was a period of rapid innovation and speculation, which is the same thing that is happening now in the blockchain space. The amount of innovation that went on behind the scenes is an often overlooked part of the dot com bubble.

The main difference here I think is scale -- a lot more money went into the dot com bubble.

Of course the bubble will eventually deflate and everything will drop, but just like with the dot com crash I think the money will gradually flow back into the strongest players in the space; eg Google, Microsoft, eBay etc. Some think this is already starting to happen... while others argue that blockchain itself is a fad. Time will tell who is right.

Good video... Blockchain or Bullshit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMEOKDVXlUo


----------



## Beaver101

As if the whole Bitcoin gizmo is not enough of a $$$-making scheme (or scam?), another shameful use. Talk about adding further insult to injury.

*‘I should be a smart guy. I wasn’t.’ How the CRA tax scam keeps duping us
How did Tom Kane end up at a Bitcoin machine pumping in $5,000 to send to a scam artist? The answer helps explain one of the most effective ways Canadian victims get bilked.*

https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2018/02/09/i-should-be-a-smart-guy-i-wasnt-how-the-cra-tax-scam-keeps-duping-us.html



> ... That began a horrible day that ended with Kane standing at the back of a variety store on Queen St. E. near Parliament, *pumping 50- and 100-dollar bills into a Bitcoin machine, money destined for who knows where*. ...


----------



## nathan79

^ Those types of scams predate Bitcoin. They often ask for credit card, bank info, Western Union, etc... some even ask for gift cards... lol.


----------



## james4beach

What happened to all the posts and excitement about bitcoins? It sure got quiet in this thread. For anyone who was excited about bitcoin when the price was $18,000 ... surely you would be even more excited today when the price has come down to $8,000

By the way, I was at a technical conference a couple months ago. One guy presented an interesting theory that I think is plausible. He says that the crypto currency complex is a giant pump & dump exercise. He thinks that the leaders of the area decide on a current crypto currency to hype up. They buy some. Then they engage in heavy marketing and spam (message forums, social media, etc) to pump up excitement for the new crypto currency, selling against the rise. And then they jump to the next crypto currency and repeat the process, again using marketing to pump the interest in the next one.

Those following the craze get pulled along from one coin to the next, probably ending up with dozens of weird little coins.


----------



## nathan79

^ You're late, it already got down to 6K in early Feb. 

I do find it funny that no one commented between then and when it rebounded to ~12K, but now that it's down to 8K I guess the bears will come out again. :glee:


----------



## off.by.10

james4beach said:


> What happened to all the posts and excitement about bitcoins?


The new excitement is theft of mining rigs  Happened in iceland about two weeks ago. Also last monday near Quebec city.


----------



## marina628

Maybe they are all too rich to post now this thread is 14 months old and we all know what the entry point was back then .I am still buying as I posted in previous threads $200 a week in bitcoin but focusing on other coins and trades.


----------



## Ag Driver

Deleted


----------



## james4beach

Ag Driver said:


> I was up $100 in it's peak, and now I'm down $100.
> 
> I have never once purchased a lotto ticket in my life, so this is my version of gambling.


I'm down $78 on my bitcoin.


----------



## marina628

I am up $11008 USD since feb 1 on a $18,000 bankroll.


----------



## tavogl

james4beach said:


> What happened to all the posts and excitement about bitcoins? It sure got quiet in this thread. For anyone who was excited about bitcoin when the price was $18,000 ... surely you would be even more excited today when the price has come down to $8,000
> 
> By the way, I was at a technical conference a couple months ago. One guy presented an interesting theory that I think is plausible. He says that the crypto currency complex is a giant pump & dump exercise. He thinks that the leaders of the area decide on a current crypto currency to hype up. They buy some. Then they engage in heavy marketing and spam (message forums, social media, etc) to pump up excitement for the new crypto currency, selling against the rise. And then they jump to the next crypto currency and repeat the process, again using marketing to pump the interest in the next one.
> 
> Those following the craze get pulled along from one coin to the next, probably ending up with dozens of weird little coins.


There are "Pump and Dump" groups all over the internet, this happens all the time with smaller coins and ICOs for sure.


----------



## Blisken

*Not For Me*

I don't think I could ever jump in to something that appears to be an investment of hype. When big tech companies such as Facebook and Google begin to block ads relating to crypto, it just further suggests that there must be a problem. I strongly believe that crypto is past its success days.


----------



## Chompers

*We're just getting started!*



james4beach said:


> What happened to all the posts and excitement about bitcoins? It sure got quiet in this thread. For anyone who was excited about bitcoin when the price was $18,000 ... surely you would be even more excited today when the price has come down to $8,000
> 
> By the way, I was at a technical conference a couple months ago. One guy presented an interesting theory that I think is plausible. He says that the crypto currency complex is a giant pump & dump exercise. He thinks that the leaders of the area decide on a current crypto currency to hype up. They buy some. Then they engage in heavy marketing and spam (message forums, social media, etc) to pump up excitement for the new crypto currency, selling against the rise. And then they jump to the next crypto currency and repeat the process, again using marketing to pump the interest in the next one.
> 
> Those following the craze get pulled along from one coin to the next, probably ending up with dozens of weird little coins.


We're still here, i'm actually excited we were able to correct down to $6k. For that one guy at the convention to not entirely understand the technology and say that it is simply a result of some misconstrued "Pump and Dump" schemes is a bit ignorant. 100% Crypto is full of these schemes, but the underlying technology behind BTC, the blockchain is where the value is. Many first mover institutions (Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, IBM, Deloitte, PWC) have moved into this space to utilize the technological innovations that the blockchain provides. XLM, ICX, NEO, ETH all provide many different use cases. ETH is currently utilizing smart contracts inside of the Government of Canada's NRC IRAP programhttps://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/government-of-canada-exploring-the-potential-of-blockchain-technology-670113383.html

In response to an earlier post regarding BTC vs. the dot.com bubble, we are in a different array of times. Dot.com was solely focused in the US, BTC is being invested into on a Worldwide scale. The semantics behind the BTC vs. Dot.com bubble are fairly different imho.

BTC to $6k is nothing to worry about for the majority of technical investors. Anything that has returned a 2500% ROI is bound to go down into an correction, this is just the first correction finishing off a Wave 1 formation, I firmly believe and stand by that we will hit anywhere from $30-50k in the coming year or 2. 

Conclusively, this is a massive technological paradigm shift into a new era. The types of technology coming to light have a profound variety of use cases that can reduce a lot of overhead expenditure in many business sectors. Adoption will take time, nonethless, We will be seeing this technology active in our institutions in the next 5-10years if not earlier as institutions are already running this technology. The recent regulatory meetings from the SEC, Congress viewings, and G20 shows that we're acknowledging the technology and society is wanting to learn how current businesses are implementing it.

Additional reading - US Congress report from March 2018 hearing regarding Crytocurrencies and its current stance:
https://dailyhodl.com/2018/03/19/us-congress-releases-extraordinary-report-praising-cryptocurrency-and-blockchain-technology/


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

You are confusing a technology (blockchain) with a speculative investment (BTC and other so-called crypto-currencies). There is no reason to believe bitcoin will fare any better than those many extinct dot.com companies.
Btw, your link doesn't work.


----------



## Chompers

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> You are confusing a technology (blockchain) with a speculative investment (BTC and other so-called crypto-currencies). There is no reason to believe bitcoin will fare any better than those many extinct dot.com companies.
> Btw, your link doesn't work.


Updated link, should be working now. You are also confusing the underlying technology that BTC provides that many cryptos rely on. BTC paved the path to Blockchain 1.0 (BTC), 2.0 (smart contracts - eth), and 3.0 (Tangle - Iota). As many of these evolve, BTC in turn evolves as well. Developers are currently testing the newer iterations of the blockchain into BTC, lightening network is being tested to heavily decrease the transaction speeds in the blockchain.

In response to your dot.com sentiments, BTC may fall as many other dot.com companies, but the likelyhood of this coming to revelation is very minimal if you understand the technology behind BTC. It won't crash, but I can guarantee you there will be another so called crypto-currency taking its place in the next 10 years.


----------



## sags

Who cares about bitcoins ? Money transfers instantly all over the world now without them.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Chompers said:


> Updated link, should be working now.


No, but that's ok 



> You are also confusing the underlying technology that BTC provides that many cryptos rely on.


No. Do you mean that you think buying bitcoin is somehow an investment in blockchain technology? BTC has no hold on the technology.



> ... lightening network is being tested to heavily decrease the transaction speeds in the blockchain.


Why would they be trying to decrease transaction speeds? I think you mean _increase_?



> ... BTC may fall,... but the likelyhood of this coming to revelation is very minimal if you understand the technology behind BTC...


You likely mean likelihood? I'm not sure what 'coming to revelation' means. Do you mean 'the likelihood of this happening'? I'd prefer to save 'revelation' to describe the awakening that will occur when people realize that BTC was a bad investment.


----------



## Chompers

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> No, but that's ok
> *Works fine here.*
> 
> No. Do you mean that you think buying bitcoin is somehow an investment in blockchain technology? BTC has no hold on the technology.
> *Once again, you fail to understand the technology and how it impacts the current Crypto ecosystem which is what my point alluded to earlier. Think of BTC as Gold, Eth as Silver to put it in easier terms.
> Right now Cryptocurrencies are pegged to BTC, therefore any reactionary price increase/decrease affect Cryptocurrencies. Once we establish a disconnect, Cryptocurrencies will be independent of BTC*
> 
> Why would they be trying to decrease transaction speeds? I think you mean _increase_?
> *I did mean increase, my apologies for the type-o.
> *
> You likely mean likelihood? I'm not sure what 'coming to revelation' means. Do you mean 'the likelihood of this happening'? I'd prefer to save 'revelation' to describe the awakening that will occur when people realize that BTC was a bad investment.
> *Likelihood is a far better term than revelation. Please explain how BTC is a bad investment. Enlighten me. You've been saying this with no pointers as to why, simply it's a bad investment. *


You can see my responses in bold. We have different viewpoints on the matter. The point of the matter is the conversation in regards to BTC and its current technological ecosystem (not my grammatical use of words). 
Judging by your past comments, you do not understand the technology, therefore that increases your speculation on BTC as a investment which is completely understandable.

Here's the working link from the post last page, edited my original comment to include the Government of Canada exploring the potential of Blockchain technology:
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/government-of-canada-exploring-the-potential-of-blockchain-technology-670113383.html


----------



## off.by.10

Chompers said:


> Think of BTC as Gold, Eth as Silver to put it in easier terms.


 So you want to believe. Does not make it fact. And when you start using this kind of vocabulary:


Chompers said:


> Conclusively, this is a massive technological paradigm shift into a new era.


Well... let's just say that history is littered with the remains of once new paradigms. But you deserve an award for stuffing so many buzzwords in a sentence. :biggrin:


Chompers said:


> Please explain how BTC is a bad investment.


Fine, I'll start with two simple points:
- It does not generate any income.
- It could be trivially replaced by something else in its market, dropping its value to zero.


----------



## Chompers

off.by.10 said:


> So you want to believe. Does not make it fact. And when you start using this kind of vocabulary:
> Well... let's just say that history is littered with the remains of once new paradigms. But you deserve an award for stuffing so many buzzwords in a sentence. :biggrin:
> 
> Fine, I'll start with two simple points:
> - It does not generate any income.
> - It could be trivially replaced by something else in its market, dropping its value to zero.


Your post made me laugh! I do tend to throw in too many buzzwords :biggrin:, I guess that's just how my brain thinks. In terms of not generating income, BTC does not generate income currently because it's an open source project. The blockchain is where the value proposition comes into play. BTC introduced it, Ethereum is utilizing the blockchain and incorporating smart contracts into its usage which is its value proposition/income generation. The Government of Canada is testing the ETH blockchain in the article i linked above. As an example in the article above, income is generated through the Gov't of Canada purchasing of Ether tokens back into the network to run their respective smart contracts/Daaps platform to achieve consensus. That is it's value proposition, reducing the data transfer protocols and building consensus into the blockchains, in turn, this eliminates a lot of technical overhead.

The hard part of BTC being trivially replaced, is although new innovations to the Blockchain are coming out, the open source development Worldwide is adding these working proven ideas back into the BTC framework. The blockchain BTC relies on essentially gets updated through multiple iterations including these groundbreaking developments


----------



## off.by.10

Chompers said:


> Your post made me laugh!


Glad it works both ways  The cryptos are still nothing like an income generating security. And that's fine, currency is not supposed to be income generating. Nor is it supposed to be an investment for that matter. It's meant to be used for exchange. BTC was good at that, for a while. Not anymore.



Chompers said:


> The hard part of BTC being trivially replaced, is although new innovations to the Blockchain are coming out, the open source development Worldwide is adding these working proven ideas back into the BTC framework. The blockchain BTC relies on essentially gets updated through multiple iterations including these groundbreaking developments


It may seem hard now but I'm sure it could happen if someone came up with a new currency which fixes some of BTC's major problems. There is no fundamental reason to keep piling blocks onto the BTC blockchain. It's only inertia. New tech could very well start from scratch. In fact, I'm fairly certain it will have to in order to fix some of the problems.


----------



## Janus

If a person truly understands something, they can explain it simply - like to a 5th grader. Investing in the stock market for instance can be explained in such a way.

I've never heard anything about the case for investing in bitcoin that wasn't in the form of someone just stumbling their way through buzzwords, and really struggling to find a point of clarity. For the record I've got nothing against the technology which seems cool.

My cousin asked me in late december if she should put a decent amount of her money into cryptocurrencies. I said to her "I'm the idiot that's been insisting on not buying them the whole way up, so what the hell do I know... but no. Don't invest in something that has no intrinsic value." It feels good to be even slightly vindicated.


----------



## sags

How could the creator of the blockchain not realize that it wouldn't scale enough to be useful ?


----------



## Chompers

sags said:


> How could the creator of the blockchain not realize that it wouldn't scale enough to be useful ?


The Government of Canada is testing etheruem smart contract utilizing blockchain technology, along with IBM, Deloitte, PWC, and AliBaba. There's cleary a use for the blockchain in many different industries, one in particular getting a lot of attention in the space is Supply Chains.
https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/pages/operations/articles/blockchain-supply-chain-innovation.html


----------



## sags

Those aren't blockchains the way you think of them. Those are data bases owned and operated by the individual business entities.

The information will be private and subscription based. IBM already advertises their "cloud blockchain" which is a fancy name for cloud data storage.


----------



## james4beach




----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Sorry James, when I try to play it says 'this video is not available'. 
Perhaps viewable in the US but off-limits to us Canucks in the lumber camps?


----------



## james4beach

Oh no... maybe it's geographically restricted. Is anyone able to see this?


----------



## MrMatt

Janus said:


> If a person truly understands something, they can explain it simply - like to a 5th grader. Investing in the stock market for instance can be explained in such a way.
> 
> I've never heard anything about the case for investing in bitcoin that wasn't in the form of someone just stumbling their way through buzzwords, and really struggling to find a point of clarity. For the record I've got nothing against the technology which seems cool.
> 
> My cousin asked me in late december if she should put a decent amount of her money into cryptocurrencies. I said to her "I'm the idiot that's been insisting on not buying them the whole way up, so what the hell do I know... but no. Don't invest in something that has no intrinsic value." It feels good to be even slightly vindicated.


Bitcoin is easy. 
I have something, there is only a limited amount of it, since the quantity is limited the price will have to go up.
This forgets that it is trivial to make pretty much the same thing, often called alt-coins, which are just like bitcoins, but with a different name.
The uniqueness of bitcoin is it is the most common and therefore the most resistant to attack.

Etherum and other smart contracts are a bit more complex, but basically "you can build applications on this, but you have to pay for the service with this etherum stuff".
Its actually theoretically useful for something, rather than just trading because someone else will want it.
Someone can still copy it, but being large it is also resistant to attack.

Iota, see blockchain with a dramatically different technology. Same problem, why buy iota instead of just making your own? It's not even popular enough to resist attack.


----------



## Spudd

james4beach said:


> Oh no... maybe it's geographically restricted. Is anyone able to see this?


Here's a version viewable in Canada (at least I'm assuming this is the same video):


----------



## james4beach

It's too bad the short version doesn't show some of the amazing segments. Here's another video that has some of it.

Look at this con artist!


----------



## new dog

It seems tax selling is also becoming a problem for Bitcoin but it may be close to running its course.

Someone posted on Reddit that they triggered a $50,000 tax bill by selling Bitcoin last year. He is now in a bit of a mess with the IRS and needs a tax lawyer to navigate through it. 

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018...-irs-50k-i-dont-have-because-i-traded-cryptos


----------



## sags

As far as I know the tax man considers bitcoins the same as comic books, sports cards or domain names.

If you sell and make a profit they want their slice. If you sell and lose.........sorry, no capital losses for you.


----------



## new dog

In the beginning it was probably a good risk to take buying Bitcoin. Today, not only do you have to take the speculative risk but the added tax risk as well, like you mentioned Sags.


----------



## sags

Bitcoin price down to $6700 now. Steadily drifting down, down, down.

People have to be getting tired of buying and watching their money drain slowly away.


----------



## nathan79

sags said:


> Bitcoin price down to $6700 now. Steadily drifting down, down, down.
> 
> People have to be getting tired of buying and watching their money drain slowly away.


The correction was to $6100 at the beginning of February. It rallied and then corrected again in March, but it's still about $700 above the February low. Actually, it's been pretty flat since the end of March. There's currently not enough sell pressure to bring it back to the panic sell-off low of February. That could change, or it could go up - who knows.


----------



## james4beach

I'm trying to trade this with traditional technical analysis... I don't really care that it's bitcoin, could be a small cap stock for all I care. My reading agrees with you nathan79. Generally it's been flat for a while now. This is probably a very interesting point for it. I don't *yet* see a definitive bursting of the bubble and I think it could go either way:

A - bubble has burst: the selling continues, breaking below $6000 ish and totally violating the 200 day moving average. No technical hope of recovery, everyone dumps, it's all over.

B - bubble keeps going: price just wiggles sideways for a while, finds a support level and stabilizes, new buying starts and the price rockets higher. Violently so, probably benefiting from squeezing the shorts who are (probably) piling into futures.

Currently I think there's a slightly higher probability of B, but I would never - EVER - bet any serious money on it.


----------



## james4beach

Greyhound86 said:


> The bitcoin ETF GBTC is trading at a 90% premium to its underlying value...Crazy


GBTC is down 86% since we had this discussion on 2017-12-18

I guess it turns out that buying a much-hyped asset of questionable intrinsic value at 90% premium is... a bad idea? Who would have guessed!

Bitcoin is down 10% today by the way


----------



## fatcat

james4beach said:


> GBTC is down 86% since we had this discussion on 2017-12-18
> 
> I guess it turns out that buying a much-hyped asset of questionable intrinsic value at 90% premium is... a bad idea? Who would have guessed!
> 
> Bitcoin is down 10% today by the way


part of the problem is that we never adequately clarified the debate ... some of us were talking about the blockchain which is robust and healthy and others were talking about rank speculation on cryptocurrency that never amounted to anything different from going to the neighbourhood dog track

the blockchain is going to revolutionize and disrupt countless industries whereas cryptocurrency is still trying to prove its worth


----------



## james4beach

I ran into a bitcoin ATM today, and it allows selling bitcoin and receiving cash. So I pulled up a quote.

To withdraw $100 cash, the ATM wanted a payment of 0.00811 bitcoin. At the current market value, that's worth 10,075 * 0.00811 coins * 1.3318 exchange rate = $109

That's really not bad, a 9% fee. Considering how illiquid bitcoin is, and the fact this ATM is anonymous, this is kind of impressive. And this is a very small dollar amount.

Imagine you have a ton of money stored in bitcoin. When the other options are (a) not accessing your money or (b) getting on law enforcement's radar, in comparison - paying a 9% fee to anonymously cash it out in small units may be a pretty good service


----------



## james4beach

fatcat said:


> it is supposed to be a currency, a way to move money and to store money like a chequing account, it could be considered another asset class but as a speculative investment it is right up there with penny stocks, high risk


On this topic of bitcoin, or crypto currencies, as a potential "asset class" -- are they legitimate enough to deserve some % weight in asset allocation?

I'd say no. So far, the "markets" for these have been heavily rigged. In the past it was revealed that a large % of trades on the crypto exchanges were wash trades to push prices around, something that is illegal in the stock market. And now there are claims being made that a lone entity (one owner!) caused the entire 2017 price surge:

Lone Bitcoin Whale Likely Fueled 2017 Price Surge, Study Says

These things (bitcoin & friends) are clearly not ready for prime time. They can't be taken seriously as an asset class, not when the prices in their market appear to be bogus, and the entire market is whipped around by a small number of large holders. Compare that to stocks, with several hundred years of price history, and gold with several _thousand_ years of pricing history. The asterisk on gold is that there's so much history for it that it stretches longer than all fiat currencies, which seems to throw people off when they have a dollar-centric view of the world.


----------



## gardner

james4beach said:


> are [ crypto-currency ] legitimate enough to deserve some % weight in asset allocation?


Agreed: NO.

I think that they are a fad at the moment. They are very risky in as much as they evade transparent legal oversight and where oversight exists, it has the effect of diminishing the value of the units. I predict that the US govt will eventually move to outlaw use of cryptocurrency on some trumped up association with crime or terrorism and it will effectively go away. Maybe 10 years.


----------



## m3s

USD has been one of the world's major reserve currency and as such gives the US govt a lot of power and control. Of course the US govt doesn't like crypto currency

Meanwhile China, Russia, EU etc like the idea of getting away from US jurisdiction and controlled currency. Adoption of crypto is happening around the world and even within US where multinational companies also are not fans of US govt control. Current US govt is definitely pushing the rest of the world away

Not to mention all the countries with unstable currency who have far less confidence from their citizens. I would argue this could be the TSN turning point of the great US empire.


----------



## MrMatt

Crypto Currency is still a bit new.
I still don't see the advantages of bitcoin yet.
The near complete lack of privacy is a huge problem.

What happens when your coins are determined to be "proceeds of a crime", and they're suddenly nobody accepts them.


Much better to go to a privacy coin like Monero, or wait for them to fix the fungibility problem with bitcoin.


----------



## marina628

Bitcoin fell off the cliff over night if anyone cares...


----------



## sags

marina628 said:


> Bitcoin fell off the cliff over night if anyone cares...


Make sure sound is on.

[video]https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/fhg2ud/sound_on/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x[/video]


----------



## marina628

wow at one point today it was at $4046.


----------



## m3s

Late last night I happened to see ETH below $100 so I DCA'd some more and within minutes it was up 20% and another 10% by morning. The blockchains are struggling to keep up w the volume it was like 1am and coinbase pro was slow and reporting "degraded service" Crazy times


----------



## m3s

At $125 USD ETH has fallen back a few months

Also at $125 USD VTI has fallen back a few years

More to come but it is interesting to see how digital currency is reacting with the market


----------



## calm

In 2018 I puirchased 60 thousand CloudCoins at 2.5 cents each





Cloudcoin – Home







cloudcoinconsortium.com


----------



## undersc0re

Do the exchanges such as a Canadian exchange like coinsquare share any information with the government of Canada about customers. Also does the government require any amount made in crypto to be shared with them like you would a gain from stocks and is it only %50 capital gains? I somehow doubt there are t5’s or any such thing provided....lol.


----------



## m3s

Many well known business accept crypto now.. Therefore CRA considers it either income or capital gain depending if you are trading it or accepting it as payment

My exchange provides tax forms. I don't know about coinsquare. You're better off to learn to calculate capital gains yourself. And yes the government knows about crypto..


----------



## calm

My 60 thousand CloudCoin cost me around 15 hundred Canadian. (2 and a half cents each.)
I purchased them with the same gusto as if had purchased Bingo cards.
I intended to sell them if/when they hit 5 cents.
Some days I got really high with the thoughts the coins might hit 10 cents.
Ah ..... but today they are still only worth 3 cents each. (3 years later.)

I realized that the owner/inventor was not really into CloudCoin and was only into it just to finance his need or desire to invent/build an inventory system for valuable items/products or collections such as baseball cardsor designer purses and the like. The costs of lawyering to create "value" or "money" and the government regulations are just too prohibitive.

The government can arrive on the scene anytime and destroy the owner. This year or anytime into the future, the legal networks of capitalism will hold you and your reputation hostage with threats.

He was a heck of a good salesperson.

But, like everything else (including gold) yuh gotta pay capital gains when all is said and done plus exchange fees.


----------



## alexincash

calm said:


> My 60 thousand CloudCoin cost me around 15 hundred Canadian. (2 and a half cents each.)
> I purchased them with the same gusto as if had purchased Bingo cards.
> I intended to sell them if/when they hit 5 cents.
> Some days I got really high with the thoughts the coins might hit 10 cents.
> Ah ..... but today they are still only worth 3 cents each. (3 years later.)
> 
> I realized that the owner/inventor was not really into CloudCoin and was only into it just to finance his need or desire to invent/build an inventory system for valuable items/products or collections such as baseball cardsor designer purses and the like. The costs of lawyering to create "value" or "money" and the government regulations are just too prohibitive.
> 
> The government can arrive on the scene anytime and destroy the owner. This year or anytime into the future, the legal networks of capitalism will hold you and your reputation hostage with threats.
> 
> He was a heck of a good salesperson.
> 
> But, like everything else (including gold) yuh gotta pay capital gains when all is said and done plus exchange fees.


So true with what you said regarding the government. Some cryptos can just become legally irrelevant while others flourish based on govt plans


----------



## calm

No matter who you are ...... the first thing they do is bankrupt you in legal fees.
That is why the Upper class is lawyer stacked.
If you find a lawyer with one Phd after his name, the government will find another with 2 Phd's after the name.
Edit: 4:30pm
CloudCoin inventor always talked about cryptocurrency but his real aim was to have a database for anything valuable. If a baseball card went up for sale, you could check the CloudCoin database and know in seconds if it was legit. This guy or database is going to track everything valuable and to make sure that the item is not counterfeit.
He had no intention of inventing a coin. Both databases require say thing.
So, he used the CloudCoin sales to finance his real objective of a tracking tool (Authentication) for valuables. He invested nothing towards testing the waterways of cruptocurrency.
The CloudCoin owner hired computer programers and paid them with CloudCoin to create the RAIDA inventory blockchain systerm. The paid programers then went and sold them to me and a zillion others.


----------



## james4beach

John McAfee, the famous crypto currency promoter, is having quite the year. Remember when I said that the entire crypto coin space is full of shady people?

(1) He's been arrested and faces up to 30 years in prison for tax evasion

Prosecutors say he didn't file taxes from 2014-2018 despite making millions of $ from promoting cryptocurrencies and doing consulting work (which he did very publicly). They allege that he hid the funds in cryptocurrency exchange accounts, real estate, and yachts. McAfee has bragged about not paying taxes and saying that he doesn't have to.

(2) The SEC sued him for promoting coin offerings with misleading statements

This lawsuit came shortly before the tax evasion arrest. Basically he's been promoting all kinds of crypto junk, with huge conflicts of interest and misleading the public.

(3) He promised to eat his own body parts this year

McAfee said that if bitcoin doesn't reach 500,000 by the end of 2020, he'll eat one of his most beloved body parts.


----------



## m3s

This is a very tiny footnote of both John McAfee and cryptocurrency

ICOs basically paid John McAfee in cryptocurrency to promote their scams

He's just selling his notoriety and that's been going on for years


----------



## calm

Wasn't McAfee a CIA contractor at one point?


----------



## sags

Tax evasion. The US always gets them on tax evasion. Of course many don't get caught, so the US takes their revenge out on the ones that do.

McAfee should consider a lengthy prison term an extended vacation to an all inclusive resort with disappointing culinary skills and lackuster amenities.

And for the first little while.........he will be the entertainment. But the good news is he could be out before he is 100.


----------



## bgc_fan

I thought one of the attractions of bitcoin was that it was out of reach of the government. Apparently the US government just seized $1B worth of bitcoins.








Record $1 billion worth of bitcoin linked to the Silk Road seized by U.S. government


One billion dollars worth of bitcoin linked to the Silk Road was seized by the Justice Department this week.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## nathan79

bgc_fan said:


> I thought one of the attractions of bitcoin was that it was out of reach of the government. Apparently the US government just seized $1B worth of bitcoins.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Record $1 billion worth of bitcoin linked to the Silk Road seized by U.S. government
> 
> 
> One billion dollars worth of bitcoin linked to the Silk Road was seized by the Justice Department this week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


Looks like the hacker who stole the coins from Silk Road agreed to forfeit them... bet they made some kind of deal.









US Seizes Previously Undetected Silk Road Bitcoins Worth Over $1 Billion – News Bitcoin News


The U.S. government has seized over $1 billion in bitcoin from previously undetected transactions associated with the Silk Road marketplace and is now seeking the forfeiture of the cryptocurrency.




news.bitcoin.com


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> I thought one of the attractions of bitcoin was that it was out of reach of the government. Apparently the US government just seized $1B worth of bitcoins.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Record $1 billion worth of bitcoin linked to the Silk Road seized by U.S. government
> 
> 
> One billion dollars worth of bitcoin linked to the Silk Road was seized by the Justice Department this week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


Yes and no.
They can't forcibly take bitcoin.

But they can blacklist them, or force you to hand over bitcoin.


----------



## m3s

bgc_fan said:


> I thought one of the attractions of bitcoin was that it was out of reach of the government. Apparently the US government just seized $1B worth of bitcoins.


To convert USD to BTC in the US you need to provide US government ID. There are tax forms. There is still a lot of regulation to work out where applying fiat rules just makes no sense.

Governments are always slow - an example given was how the US government required transport companies to have a veterinarian on staff long after "horseless carriages" were invented

Canada is in the dark ages when it comes to digital assets.


----------



## KaeJS

Help me make up my mind...

I have known about Bitcoin since 2014 and I have avoided it. I used to be a miner, but I sold my coins as soon as they were mined because I didn't believe in cryptocurrency.

So... Here we are in 2021 and cryptocurrency is still alive and well. I am actually considering taking a position in both BTC and ETH.

The market seems off the rails and nothing makes sense. But maybe this is going to be the new norm?

Am I foolish to start a position when BTC is around 40k? Nobody knows the future, but it seems like memestonkz and crypto is all the rage. I just feel like there is no reason it won't continue to be all the rage...

What's going to stop BTC from rising?


----------



## MrMatt

With ETH transaction fees at $20, something needs to get fixed.


----------



## m3s

@KaeJS There's a lot going on right now both good and bad

US OCC approved US banks to hold, trade, connect, transact crypto payments etc (see PayPal, Square)
US SEC chair has a decent understanding of blockchain tech (taught it at MIT)
US institutions are buying BTC as a hedge against inflation and for asset diversity

BTC halving event every 4 years just sparked another bull run (last halving was 2016, 2017 bull run and 2018 crash) If this cycle continues we could see mania in 2021 with a crash in the fall or 2022. However now we also have inflation, more institutions getting in and more clarity for regulations etc

I stake ethereum but the transactions fees are a major problem. Ethereum is going through a major upgrade from mining to staking. ETH is also about to hit the futures market tomorrow (some believe this is price manipulation that crashed BTC in 2018)

Cardano just launched smart contracts on its mainnet and announced partnerships with several African governments for ID and loans. Having hands on with both ethereum and cardano, the latter is far more advanced and has more potential imo.

If anything I would look into emerging networks. BTC doesn't have the potential of staking and smart contracts


----------



## james4beach

KaeJS said:


> The market seems off the rails and nothing makes sense. But maybe this is going to be the new norm?


Very hard to know. For all we know, this could be a fad during bubble times.



KaeJS said:


> Am I foolish to start a position when BTC is around 40k? Nobody knows the future, but it seems like memestonkz and crypto is all the rage. I just feel like there is no reason it won't continue to be all the rage...
> 
> What's going to stop BTC from rising?


I'm surprised to hear you say that you don't see any reason it can't continue to be all the rage.

Here are some possible things that could happen, some scenarios. I think all of these are strong possibilities.

1. it could turn out that bitcoin is really just a huge pump & dump scheme. Some early holders established positions, and then aggressively marketed it through social media. It sort of takes off, keeps being very popular through social media and recruiting new people. You will notice that crypto currencies are almost exclusively marketed through shady social media mechanisms. Then the large initial holders start selling out of their positions, dumping their coins onto the market. After that point the coordinated pumping stops, and it either crashes in price, or the price kind of does nothing from that point on.

2. it could be highly correlated with stocks. I think BTC really is like an "unregulated stock"... it's something people trade for fun, and gamble in, without constraints of the usual stock market. Bitcoin crashed along with the stock market in March. So it could have the behaviour of any other gambling stock, kind of like a dot com bubble stock. That would suggest it has a limited lifetime. It might be strong as long as the current stock market bubble is strong, but if that bursts, then it's the end of the fun.

3. it could still around forever like a commodity. For this I think of platinum. This is an extremely rare metal that has limited supply. Bitcoin has limited supply. But just because something has limited supply, doesn't mean the price has to go up steadily over the long term. Here's a chart of platinum that I think could be Bitcoin's future. It's not terrible, and it still has value as the years go by, but platinum has actually underperformed stocks and bonds. So it's a reasonable investment, but hasn't been a great investment.

4. the government(s) turn on it. Crypto currencies will be next to useless if the government(s) come down hard on them. They need exchanges to operate, and if the government bans them then people will want to sell and get out.

I hold $600 of bitcoin.


----------



## m3s

The difference between palladium and something like BTC is metcalf's law. The network effect. Gold and bonds also crashed with stocks but they all recovered differently

Crypto currency is booming the most in country's that ban it. Kind of like how american's buy more guns when Obama thinks about banning them or how prohibition turned out. Like how girls raised in sexually repressive religions turn out quite the opposite. People don't like to be controlled

The crypto space has developers who believe in the utility and also the speculators. You see the same types of speculators in everything - real estate, stocks, precious metals etc


----------



## nathan79

KaeJS said:


> ... Here we are in 2021 and cryptocurrency is still alive and well. I am actually considering taking a position in both BTC and ETH.


Figure out how much you want to allocate, then either buy lump sum or dollar cost average. Dollar cost averaging might be a good strategy since the market is near record highs, but it could end up going much higher. I have no opinion on the next 1-3 years, but I think it will be much higher in the longer term.

I suggest the majority (80-90%) should go into Bitcoin. If there is a crash, Bitcoin tends to hold its value the best. ETH is also a decent choice, but it's slightly more risky. What I would NOT do is try to pick the "next Bitcoin"... that's pure gambling. Most coins and tokens will lose more than 90% of their value in a severe bear market.

Just for fun, check out CoinMarketCap's historical snapshots: Check Cryptocurrency Price History For The Top Coins | CoinMarketCap


----------



## Argonaut

IMO governments should step in and kill Bitcoin. It has an intrinsic value of zero. No wait, it has an intrinsic value of *less than* zero.
Why? Because it wastes an unbelievable amount of energy. Bitcoin mining emits more CO2 per year than 1 million transatlantic flights. It uses more electricity than entire countries like Switzerland, Ireland, and Hungary.
If governments are really serious about climate change (they're not, they just try to get votes)... then they should kill Bitcoin as fast as they can.


----------



## m3s

Argonaut said:


> If governments are really serious about climate change (they're not, they just try to get votes)... then they should kill Bitcoin as fast as they can.


I agree 100%. This is a senseless waste of energy

This is a major reason I prefer proof of stake networks such as cardano over proof of work networks such as bitcoin. Ethereum is in the middle of transitioning from mining to staking (no easy feat) Bitcoin will never transition

Imagine how much energy is used digging up and storing precious metals in vaults. This should also be illegal. At least crypto mining can be co-located with renewable energy sources like in Canada and Iceland

How much energy and oxygen do central banks use anyways?


----------



## cainvest

Argonaut said:


> IMO governments should step in and kill Bitcoin.


Right after Tesla buys $1.5 Billion of it?


----------



## wayward__son

m3s said:


> Imagine how much energy is used digging up and storing precious metals in vaults. This should also be illegal. At least crypto mining can be co-located with renewable energy sources like in Canada and Iceland
> 
> How much energy and oxygen do central banks use anyways?


great questions. i will go another step and ask if Argonaut would like to share any views on the environmental, social and economic costs of the petrodollar system.


----------



## MrBlackhill

cainvest said:


> Right after Tesla buys $1.5 Billion of it?


I'm wondering what does $1.5B of Bitcoin truly means to Tesla... Its market cap is over $800B. That $1.5B is almost nothing. That's about the same as me buying $200 of Bitcoin, haha... Small money.

Elon Musk is just playing around with the market hype.

Am I wrong?


----------



## nathan79

Whenever someone brings up the energy usage argument, I immediately suspect they're being disingenuous. Surely they are aware that the carbon footprint of gold mining is astronomical, not to mention the environmental destruction. The entire banking system also has a massive carbon footprint, as well as a large physical footprint when you consider all of the office buildings and bank branches that are needed.

The biggest roadblock for proof of stake is security concerns. There have been some interesting developments that could eventually solve these concerns, but Bitcoin can't afford to take that kind of a risk.


----------



## m3s

MrBlackhill said:


> Am I wrong?


Elon Musk could be messing around but why would a publicly traded company's board of directors vote for it?

Look up Michael Saylor's corporate strategy for digital assets that is gaining a lot of traction with US institutions. He compares it to how businesses in countries with weak currencies use USD.

Not really rocket science. Diversify assets while keeping your expenses in the weaker currency


----------



## cainvest

m3s said:


> Elon Musk could be messing around but why would a publicly traded company's board of directors vote for it?


Maybe a first step towards them accepting it on car purchases or other services?


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## m3s

nathan79 said:


> The biggest roadblock for proof of stake is security concerns. There have been some interesting developments that could eventually solve these concerns, but Bitcoin can't afford to take that kind of a risk.


True. PoW has a 10 year track record while PoS is still very new.

Understanding how PoS could work became my pandemic hobby. It combines my interests in tech and finances. I feel like blockchains and smart contracts will be the biggest advancement of the coming decade.

Last decade we got social media and the sharing economy. This will blow that away


----------



## Spudd

cainvest said:


> Maybe a first step towards them accepting it on car purchases or other services?


They did say they will be accepting it for car purchases in the future.


----------



## james4beach

m3s said:


> Elon Musk could be messing around but why would a publicly traded company's board of directors vote for it?


Likely because Elon Musk has too much influence over them, which is something that violates an SEC agreement.

Musk was supposed to step down as Chairman and there were supposed to be new safeguards to prevent him from influencing the management too much.


----------



## m3s

SEC already regulates many publicly traded companies that hold crypto assets. They have several crypto IPOs coming as well

OCC already approved US banks to hold, trade, connect with blockchains and there are already several crypto exchanges chartered as US banks with many in the works

TSLA far from the first institution to buy BTC it's just the first mega tech company. I notice that Canadians lag behind with adopting changes like with amazon, Tesla etc

Why ARK Innovation closed out all BTC from its ETF


----------



## sags

As institutions invade the bitcoin space they will slowly take over control.

They will determine the price point to "take profits". If a black swan type of event happens.........they will dump everything and collapse the price overnight.

If I owned a lot of bitcoins I would fear venture companies and hedge funds jumping in. Those funds don't HODL.

I thought bitcoins were conceived as a decentralized alternative to financial institutions......and now they are being occupied by them.

It isn't a good idea to sleep with the lions you have been teasing.


----------



## sags

Do you watch CNBC ? Bitcoins are all day every day........only pumpers invited. Venture funds, hedge funds, are all jumping in and pumping.

Musk, Saylor, Scaramucci, .........Jim Cramer ? Seriously, this is NOT what bitcoin supporters should want.

These guys tell everyone after they buy.......but don't tell anyone before they sell.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Do you watch CNBC ? Bitcoins are all day every day........only pumpers invited. Venture funds, hedge funds, are all jumping in and pumping.
> 
> Musk, Saylor, Scaramucci, .........Jim Cramer ? Seriously, this is NOT what bitcoin supporters should want.


Yup. CNBC has turned into bitcoin central. Even Bloomberg is running a lot of wacky bitcoin content.

Wall Street and hedge funds are all over bitcoin. And why wouldn't they be? This is the wild west of markets. It's a NEW market. That's the kind of environment Wall Street thrives in.

The bitcoin believers and libertarians have handed Wall Street a wonderful new tool, and now Wall Street is going to do the same thing they used to do with stocks before stronger regulations came in. They're going to pump & dump this thing, dupe investors, collude, fix prices, paint the tape.

Wall Street is busy at work, ripping off small guys. What I love about this is that Wall Street's guests can also push the same narrative, about this being a brave new world in finance and markets, a new paradigm, even a way for small people to take back their power and become super rich ... lol. While saying this, they are trading against you.


----------



## sags

Quite a scathing opinion of bitcoins by Economics Professor Nouriel Roubini.









Don't fall for the bitcoin bubble, even the Flintstones had a better system, warns economist Nouriel Roubini


Economics professor Nouriel Roubini has a warning for bitcoin enthusiasts.




www.marketwatch.com


----------



## sags

Maybe when Doctor Doom warns against buying bitcoins..........it is time to start buying ?

Bitcoin is defying all logic and economics. It just keeps going up and up like the little engine that could.

Roubini does bring up some interesting points.....most old arguments but a new one is that if bitcoin miners had to pay carbon taxes they would lose money.


----------



## nathan79

The fact that his nickname is Dr. Doom should probably tell you something. I understand that guys like that can be tempting to listen to, but they usually end up being wrong more than they're right. I expect that he'll continue to be wrong, but keep on believing he's right. Those types always do.


----------



## james4beach

I would take Bitcoin more seriously if I didn't see spammers and con artists pumping it all over social media and Youtube. Because of the people I see promoting it, I can't shake off the feeling that it's all just a big scam.


----------



## m3s

The scammers exist because the majority just want to FOMO in on a quick buck without researching anything

Take away the scammers, speculators, FOMO investors and maybe it would be less volatile. But all markets behave about the same it's just amplified. I expect more and more FOMO investors in the coming months.

Price will probably go parabolic and then crash like 2017. 4 year cycle right on queue with the BTC halving


----------



## newfoundlander61

Just came across this today. Under the ticker *BTCC*, the fund *will begin* to *trade* on Feb. 18 and invest directly in bitcoin, allowing retail investors to access the cryptocurrency without the need for a digital wallet.

Purpose Bitcoin ETF | Cryptocurrency & Bitcoin | BTCC


----------



## m3s

So 1% fee per year to a trust a centralized agent to buy/hold BTC for you? Kind of defeats the purpose

Meanwhile in Miami


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360069847971954690


----------



## newfoundlander61

No Bitcoin for me, not my style or risk tolerance.


----------



## sags

How in the world does an employer pay in bitcoins ?

By the time the wages were calculated, paid out and recalculated into dollars by the bank to pay bills........it could have gained or lost value.

Works out great if bitcoins go up 20% by payday and you gain. Not so good if they drop 20% or collapse to 0% by payday.

_Sorry I can't pay the mortgage. My bitcoins went down............_


----------



## sags

I think we have entered the realm were people, businesses, or cities that are heavily indebted believe they can buy bitcoins and then pay off all their debts when it goes_ "to _the moon"_. _Young people already believe they can buy bitcoins and never work in their lives.......just drive Lambos and live in mansions.


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## m3s

Yea Janet Yellen should just print more USD right

Because 1 USD always equals 1 USD


----------



## sags

m3s said:


> Because 1 USD always equals 1 USD


Yes, but it will buy less goods......as it happening right now with rising prices on assets and commodities.

MMT addresses the problem of too much money in circulation by withdrawing some of it from the economy through taxation.

For all intent and purposes, the government can take the tax money and burn it in a barrel. The goal is a properly balanced money supply.


----------



## m3s

sags said:


> Yes, but it will buy less goods......as it happening right now with rising prices on assets and commodities.


So you understand that fiat will likely decrease in value by design but yet don't see that crypto will likely increase in value by design

The difference is only that you measure value in USD. There is no guarantee we will always measure value in USD. Saying 1 USD is always 1 USD is psychological

This is like measuring a meter with a measuring stick that is constantly growing. Therefore 1 meter is always 1 meter only if the length of 1 meter stays constant....


----------



## MrMatt

m3s said:


> Yea Janet Yellen should just print more USD right
> 
> Because 1 USD always equals 1 USD


1 Doge = 1 Doge. That's been a meme since inception.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I think we have entered the realm were people, businesses, or cities that are heavily indebted believe they can buy bitcoins and then pay off all their debts when it goes_ "to _the moon"_. _Young people already believe they can buy bitcoins and never work in their lives.......just drive Lambos and live in mansions.


They also believe that they can do that by being a pro gamer, or a youtuber, or instagram star.

They don't realize it's really hard work.

Also paying in bitcoin with the high transaction fees is dumb. Litecoin has been stable, and their transaction fees are miniscule (as intended)


----------



## m3s

MrMatt said:


> 1 Doge = 1 Doge. That's been a meme since inception.


----------



## MrMatt

Of course "they" can't just create more doge unless everyone agrees to create more doge


----------



## m3s

I didn't agree to create more USD


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Of course "they" can't just create more doge unless everyone agrees to create more doge


People can create more of any kind of crypto currency. There are at least 4000 crypto coins out there, and new ones pop up every few days.

There is unlimited supply of crypto coins. They are created out of thin air, and there is no limit to how much can be created.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> People can create more of any kind of crypto currency. There are at least 4000 crypto coins out there, and new ones pop up every few days.
> 
> There is unlimited supply of crypto coins. They are created out of thin air, and there is no limit to how much can be created.


No, they can't "create more of any kind of crypto currency".
They can create a new one, but you can't simply create more bitcoin or ethereum out of thin air.

That's the problem with fiat currency someone can simply decide to give themselves more.

That can't happen in cryptocurrencies, without 
1. It being public that the new currency was created.
2. Everyone agreeing to use the new currency.

Sometimes people accept the changes and move forward with the new version, sometimes people reject the changes and stick to the old version, sometimes people are divided, and you end up with 2 currencies, one under each new set of rules.

This has happened many times.
What's really important is that you don't have to decide to accept the changes put forward.

With fiat currencies, you have no choice, there is no line saying "this is the new version of the Dollar after we inflated the money supply by adding $1T dollars".
With crypto currencies, we know that, and we have that choice to accept or not.

Could you imagine if when the government went to add money, people could simply say "nope, not accepting those new dollars". It would totally change how currencies work. Which again is the point.


----------



## sags

If the general thesis is that bitcoin is going to replace global currencies.........governments might have something to say about that.


----------



## m3s

Biden is ancient years old and yet even the US has green lit BTC for US banks and companies

I suspect governments in the free world to support it more and more as the boomers fade out of power

Do you think Canada will follow China and ban it or follow the US? What is clear is that Canada won't lead


----------



## sags

It is hilarious that bitcoin pumpers rejoice at governments becoming more involved.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> It is hilarious that bitcoin pumpers rejoice at governments becoming more involved.


Well the Government action can be
ignore and leave it in a legal grey area.
Ban
Allow.

So yeah, allowing it is good. Myself I don't want the governments to have control, they mess up almost everything they get their hands onto.


----------



## cainvest

m3s said:


> Do you think Canada will follow China and ban it or follow the US?


I think many countries will decide based on the pros/cons. If there is lots of corruption associated with it then they'll likely ban it's use.


----------



## m3s

There's lots of corruption going on already @cainvest so why don't they focus banning corruption instead

If anything fiat facilitates corruption more than a digital traceable medium of exchange in the first place..


----------



## cainvest

m3s said:


> There's lots of corruption going on already @cainvest so why don't they focus banning corruption instead


I'm no digital currency expert ... how would you suggest they do that?


----------



## m3s

cainvest said:


> I'm no digital currency expert ... how would you suggest they do that?


Corruption existed long before digital currency and will continue to exist even if you manage to ban digital currency..


----------



## cainvest

m3s said:


> Corruption existed long before digital currency and will continue to exist even if you manage to ban digital currency..


Well you suggested they focus on banning corruption (maybe just limiting it?) so again, how do you suggest they do that? 

I gather having all governments monitor all transactions would not be an acceptable solution to those holding digital currency.


----------



## m3s

What? All the popular digital currencies are public ledgers that are very easy to trace by anyone

The misconceptions really show how much more potential there is as public knowledge improves


----------



## cainvest

m3s said:


> What? All the popular digital currencies are public ledgers that are very easy to trace by anyone
> 
> The misconceptions really show how much more potential there is as public knowledge improves


Ok, I wasn't aware of that. So one can not create an anonymous bitcoin wallet?


----------



## m3s

They are pseudonymous like your username/email. Not hard to link to other info and most governments require ID to be recorded when exchanging fiat and crypto. The most popular privacy chain is way down the list. I can see governments having an issue with a privacy chain

Ideally a more advanced ID system would allow users to control their own ID and for services/regions to require a certain level of ID for taxes and legalities. This is already in research and development at world class universities. Governments are already signing up to use it

I'm afraid Canadians are living in the dark ages when it comes to how fast things are developing. It's not clandestine dark web it's open source and more transparent than most governments and companies are. It's major companies, universities and governments


----------



## cainvest

m3s said:


> They are pseudonymous like your username/email. Not hard to link to other info and most governments require ID to be recorded when exchanging fiat and crypto.


Well since one can create anonymous wallets and some governments don't require ID to convert to fiat that presents a big problem.


----------



## m3s

cainvest said:


> Well since one can create anonymous wallets and some governments don't require ID to convert to fiat that presents a big problem.


My cash wallet is anonymous

I guess we should ban cash


----------



## cainvest

m3s said:


> My cash wallet is anonymous
> 
> I guess we should ban cash


I would agree with that ... I so rarely use cash it wouldn't effect me.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> No, they can't "create more of any kind of crypto currency".
> They can create a new one,


That's what I meant. It's trivial to create a new, competing crypto currency.

Doesn't matter if they can't create new bitcoin. They can create something better. Bitcoin is already clunky, useless for payments, too heavily involved in criminal activity, and it's pretty clear it has no real future.

Because crypto coins in general are created out of thin air, there is an unlimited supply of crypto coins. Not sure why you'd want to invest in an asset class where there is unlimited new creation, and each creation is just a figment of people's imagination. I could sit down this afternoon and create a new crypto coin.


----------



## m3s

james4beach said:


> I could sit down this afternoon and create a new crypto coin.


You could create a new fiat currency too. There are thousands of fiat currencies. How does that dilute CAD or USD


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> That's what I meant. It's trivial to create a new, competing crypto currency.
> 
> Doesn't matter if they can't create new bitcoin. They can create something better. Bitcoin is already clunky, useless for payments, too heavily involved in criminal activity, and it's pretty clear it has no real future.
> 
> Because crypto coins in general are created out of thin air, there is an unlimited supply of crypto coins. Not sure why you'd want to invest in an asset class where there is unlimited new creation, and each creation is just a figment of people's imagination. I could sit down this afternoon and create a new crypto coin.


Well that's like company stock, or dollars, or any other currencies.
I can print off how ever many Mattbucks, or James4beach stock that I want.
Doesn't mean anyones going to trade their CAD$ or Google Stock for them.

Unless you give me a compelling reason to buy James4Beach-coin/stock/dollars, I'm not going to.

Lets say you buy company stock, like Tesla.
What are you actually buying? Maybe a tiny fraction of a car company, but also a whole bunch of bitcoin, and every year your share shrinks by some magical percentage, depending how much new stock they want to issue.



Again today bitcoin mainline doesn't' appear useful for those specific tasks, but buying a coffee isn't the intended use case for bitcoin.
Buying a cup of coffee with bitcoin is like buying a cup of coffee with a gold bar, or hammering a nail with a screwdriver.
If I wanted to buy a cup of coffee, I'd use litecoin.


As far as "heavily involved in criminal activity", so are US & Canadian dollars.
I'd actually suggest there is more criminal activity linked to handfuls of cash than the entire cryptospace as a whole.


so I'll circle back.
You can create a new cryptocurrency that's "a lot like" bitcoin or whatever.
But just because you create a competitor, doesn't mean it's going to be successful, or even diminish the value of the existing solution.
But YOU can't just make more bitcoin. Which again is the point.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> That's what I meant. It's trivial to create a new, competing crypto currency.
> 
> Doesn't matter if they can't create new bitcoin. They can create something better. Bitcoin is already clunky, useless for payments, too heavily involved in criminal activity, and it's pretty clear it has no real future.
> 
> Because crypto coins in general are created out of thin air, there is an unlimited supply of crypto coins. Not sure why you'd want to invest in an asset class where there is unlimited new creation, and each creation is just a figment of people's imagination. I could sit down this afternoon and create a new crypto coin.


It's trivial to create a new competing search engine company.

Doesn't matter if they can't create a new Google. They can create something better. Google is already clunky, useless for X, and it's pretty clear it has no real future.

Because companies and code are created out of thin air, there is an unlimited supply of search engines. Not sure why you'd want to invest in an asset class where there is unlimited new creation, and each creation is just a figment of people's imagination. I could sit down this afternoon and create a new search engine.

Yes, and it's worked out very well for Bing.
I imagine your new crypto coin will be less successful than bing (or duckduckgo, or any of the other not google search engines)

What about domain speculation? Google.com was worthless, now it's worth a fortune. There are unlimited number of domain names, does that mean that they're all equally worthless?
If anything, as time goes on, and more domain names are created the prominent domain names are becoming MORE valuable, not less.


----------



## capricorn

MrMatt said:


> Well that's like company stock, or dollars, or any other currencies.
> I can print off how ever many Mattbucks, or James4beach stock that I want.
> Doesn't mean anyones going to trade their CAD$ or Google Stock for them.
> 
> Unless you give me a compelling reason to buy James4Beach-coin/stock/dollars, I'm not going to.
> 
> Lets say you buy company stock, like Tesla.
> What are you actually buying? Maybe a tiny fraction of a car company, but also a whole bunch of bitcoin, and every year your share shrinks by some magical percentage, depending how much new stock they want to issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Again today bitcoin mainline doesn't' appear useful for those specific tasks, but buying a coffee isn't the intended use case for bitcoin.
> Buying a cup of coffee with bitcoin is like buying a cup of coffee with a gold bar, or hammering a nail with a screwdriver.
> If I wanted to buy a cup of coffee, I'd use litecoin.
> 
> 
> As far as "heavily involved in criminal activity", so are US & Canadian dollars.
> I'd actually suggest there is more criminal activity linked to handfuls of cash than the entire cryptospace as a whole.
> 
> 
> so I'll circle back.
> You can create a new cryptocurrency that's "a lot like" bitcoin or whatever.
> But just because you create a competitor, doesn't mean it's going to be successful, or even diminish the value of the existing solution.
> But YOU can't just make more bitcoin. Which again is the point.


On this corruption angle, one should see the billions in settlement that banks have done for wrongful activities. Reeks to the core. No wonder people want alternatives outside the reach of current corrupts.

Still I am too chicken to buy bitcoin/ETH today. Too pricey for me.


----------



## MrMatt

capricorn said:


> On this corruption angle, one should see the billions in settlement that banks have done for wrongful activities. Reeks to the core. No wonder people want alternatives outside the reach of current corrupts.
> 
> Still I am too chicken to buy bitcoin/ETH today. Too pricey for me.


The cost to buy isn't high.

Well, the transaction fee is at all time highs of $20-30, which is high, but if you keep it in an exchange you only pay their transaction fees (I think about .26% on Kraken, or 0.1% on Binance)

Would you buy Berkshire today? Or is it "too pricey" at 360k/share


I don't know how to value cryptocurrency today, that's why I'm not buying.
To be fair I don't trade currency anyway, I don't even hedge currency exposure for my US or EU securities.


----------



## james4beach

I have owned some Bitcoin but have actually been selling off my coinz as the price goes up.


----------



## james4beach

james4beach said:


> John McAfee, the famous crypto currency promoter, is having quite the year. Remember when I said that the entire crypto coin space is full of shady people?


McAfee is still detained in Spain awaiting extradition to the US for tax crimes. There are new charges against him, announced today. Maybe we're getting into the stage of this game where the tide goes out, and you start exposing all the crooks and con men. It takes prosecutors many months to build up good cases. I expect a tsunami of charges against people in the crypto currency space in the coming year(s). There are just so many crimes being conducted, and everyone has been getting away with it until now... I cant believe the wacky stuff I keep seeing promoted and pumped, especially through social media.

​NEW YORK (Reuters) - John McAfee, the founder of the McAfee antivirus software company, has been indicted in Manhattan federal court on fraud and money laundering conspiracy crimes, stemming from two schemes concerning the fraudulent promotion to investors of cryptocurrencies, the U.S. Department of Justice said on Friday.​​Jimmy Gale Watson Jr, an executive adviser of McAfee's so-called cryptocurrency team, has also been charged, and was arrested on Thursday night, the Justice Department said.​​


----------



## m3s

I thought the lawsuits against Ripple and Tether would have some fallout at least in terms of public perception

Tether has already settled and it looks like Ripple's lawsuit could be dismissed as well. I followed to see how this played out and if it would have an impact but really "centralized" blockchains are pointless and insignificant to true decentralized blockchain tech. Kind of hard to make a lawsuit against a crypto currency that doesn't have a central organization.

John McAfee is a complete non-story has-been in terms of cryptocurrencies and blockchains. Not even worth following


----------



## fireseeker

Just a data point, and perhaps not indicative of their properties as hedges:

With equity markets slumping today, BTC in Canadian dollars was down 8.3%.

Gold, in CAD (as measured by CGL.c) was up 1.3%.


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## m3s

fireseeker said:


> Just a data point, and perhaps not indicative of their properties as hedges:
> 
> With equity markets slumping today, BTC in Canadian dollars was down 8.3%.
> 
> Gold, in CAD (as measured by CGL.c) was up 1.3%.


Just another cherry picked data point though

1 year BTC +308% Gold -9%

Gold is flat over 10 years. Ultimate stability


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## james4beach

fireseeker said:


> Just a data point, and perhaps not indicative of their properties as hedges:
> 
> With equity markets slumping today, BTC in Canadian dollars was down 8.3%.
> 
> Gold, in CAD (as measured by CGL.c) was up 1.3%.


Yeah I think a few market selloffs (the 2020 crash being a big one) showed that crypto coins tend to act as "risk assets" and fall along with stocks.

For diversification, you're probably much better off with bonds and gold, which tend to move opposite to the "risk assets". Of course there is no rule that says gold has to go up when stocks fall, but gold tends to at least remain stable while stocks crash.

This happened in the 2000 crash, also 2008, and 2020 crashes and it's a big reason I have gold in my portfolio.

Probably even more important for people living off their portfolios due to sequence of return risk.


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## MrBlackhill

m3s said:


> Just another cherry picked data point though
> 
> 1 year BTC +308% Gold -9%
> 
> Gold is flat over 10 years. Ultimate stability


Yes but no matter the asset class, this past performance can't go on forever.

There's about $11T in gold, about $800B in Bitcoin and about $300B in Ethereum.

We could also say that Bitcoin did 70x within 5 years and that Ethereum did 230x within 5 years. But the probability that this happen again is pretty much zero. Because if crypto does 100x within the next 5 years, it would be at $80T for Bitcoin and $30T for Ethereum. Even a 10x within the next 5 years is very unlikely. So that 4x for Bitcoin within a year won't be repeated. Unless Bitcoin crashes -50% then moves up +300% from that crash.

And this post is not against crypto, but just some logic about any asset growing too fast. There's always a cycle about how (where) money flows.

It's like AAPL's recent 5x within 5 years. AAPL being the biggest stock out there, it's very unlikely to do another 5x from this current price in 5 years from now.


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## m3s

james4beach said:


> Yeah I think a few market selloffs (the 2020 crash being a big one) showed that crypto coins tend to act as "risk assets" and fall along with stocks.
> 
> For diversification, you're probably much better off with bonds and gold


I remember very well that gold and bonds also fell during the 2020 covid crash. This confused me. But everything recovered at a different pace. Gold and crypto recovered very well.

Since then bonds are confirmed useless to me. I need something to sell during a crash to buy the fire sale and bonds failed at that. Bonds are heavily manipulated now (as is everything like gold silver etc with paper trading) Stablecoins that yield 8-12% might be the answer but not all are created equally (some are backed by commercial papers - no thanks)

Crypto has a lot of skittish leveraged traders but it also has a massive base of long term holders like gold. Unlike gold though we can how much of the long term coins are moving


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## sags

Governments are faced with a choice.

They can allow numerous crytpto currencies and hire tens of thousands more government auditors to try to decipher the myriad of anonymous transactions all over the world to ensure they are for legal purposes and paying the appropriate level of taxes............or they can create their own central bank digital currency and ban all the others as counterfeit currencies.

I think they already have their hands full tracing all the illegal cash transactions and money laundering, without making it easier for the bandits.

I have a pretty good idea which way the axe will fall. Enjoy it while it lasts. Pump the heck out of it and take the sucker's money for as long as you can..

But don't be fooled. It isn't going to end well for those convinced their path to glorious riches is owning a handful of magic internet money.


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## sags

Stand up comics often use the "you don't understand" punchline. Unfortunately, for all the bagholders it won't be all that funny.

Alas, it was the greater fools who didn't understand that they were always destined to be the losers in the scheme.


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## sags

China banned all crypto. The US will be next. El Salvadorians are suffering a loss of purchasing power. I expect a government overthrow there.

It is the beginning of the end for crypto.


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## MrMatt

sags said:


> China banned all crypto. The US will be next. Crypto prices are falling.


No they didn't.
They banned crypto-currency transactions.

Banning blockchains or crypto currencies is dumb.
If the technology is worthless, it will collapse on its own.
If the technology is useful/valuable, you've just put yourself at a major disadvantage.


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## sags

Without being able to transact in crypto.......bitcoins might as well be four leaf clovers.

_China’s central bank has just made *all cryptocurrency-related activities illegal*. The value of bitcoin plunged over 5%, while other digital coins are also trading lower on the day. _

The US is on the verge of making crypto illegal as well.









Ron Insana: China may be the first to ban bitcoin, but it won’t be the last


Other countries could model China’s recent move to make crypto transactions illegal, writes CNBC contributor Ron Insana.




www.cnbc.com


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## MrMatt

sags said:


> Without being able to transact in crypto.......bitcoins might as well be four leaf clovers.
> 
> _China’s central bank has just made *all cryptocurrency-related activities illegal*. The value of bitcoin plunged over 5%, while other digital coins are also trading lower on the day. _
> 
> The US is on the verge of making crypto illegal as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ron Insana: China may be the first to ban bitcoin, but it won’t be the last
> 
> 
> Other countries could model China’s recent move to make crypto transactions illegal, writes CNBC contributor Ron Insana.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


You're confusing crypto and cryptocurrencies.

Also the news reported "all cryptocurrency-related activities illegal".
But what is "cryptocurrency related" could be anything, could be nothing.

What they actually banned is anyones guess.

Did they ban trading bitcoin for yuan, likely.
Did they ban research into encryption algorithms, likely not.
Did they ban construction or design of encryption acceleration technology, likely not.
Did they ban the use of crypto, almost certainly not.


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## m3s

China banned google once. China banned crypto more times than I can count. This proves the point of decentralization

US made it a criminal offense for U.S. citizens to own or trade gold anywhere in the world, with exceptions for some jewelry and collector's coins.

Governments have controlled and confiscated property throughout history. That's the whole point


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## m3s

Brief history of China tech bans: 

YouTube - 2009 
Facebook - 2009 
Google - 2010 
Wikipedia - 2019

Bitcoin - 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021


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## sags

El Salvador adopted bitcoins as their currency. The value of their currency has dropped 20% since. 

Their solution.......buy more bitcoins.They will be begging the "legacy" IMF to bail them out.


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