# BAC Bank of America



## Axcell (Mar 25, 2011)

Hey guys, just bought some BAC @ $11.42/share. Bought slightly over 200 shares. I'm thinking this is a really great ENTRY point for the American banks, and out of all of them, I truly feel BAC is the best at this level. 

Would like to see what others think. I'll average down if it hits under $11, but for now, I'm happy with it.


----------



## dagman1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Why would you touch this stock? If you can give a reasoned basis for your decision to enter other than "the stock is lower than it used to be", please do share.

Tell everyone why you think it's a good buy at this price then maybe you will get some discussion.


----------



## peterk (May 16, 2010)

I bought this a few months ago at 11.xx. Watched er go up to 15 and back down again. I don't reccomend the method - but I honestly have no idea how to value these american banks, so I'm pretty much just buying based off of "the price has gone down quite a bit" At the moment I'm preferring the good buys in BBL and SU. But if BAC drops a bit lower I might be compelled to add to my position. I'm still somewhat uncomfortable with it though as I lack the time and/or brains to evaluate the company properly...
What method have you used to determine BAC was best for you over the other banks, Axcell?


----------



## Axcell (Mar 25, 2011)

Been flying since.. timing was decent.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

From US banks I hold only JPM


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

US banking stocks may yo-yo for quite some time to come.
A lot of it is related to the recession in the US - the rest is related to the over-regulation in the aftermath of the financial crisis.

However, the over-arching factor for me with the US bank stocks is that I do not trust a word of what they say, or print in their reports.
The Goldman Sachs and the Citigroups are con artists more than anything else.
You'd need a PhD. in forensic accounting to even begin unraveling their true financial picture.


----------



## w0nger (Mar 15, 2010)

the only US bank i hold is PBCT... their high distributions, recent mergers, and good cash flow is what attract me to them...


----------



## rassmy (May 7, 2010)

Don't expect to make profit quickly with the american banks, it is a good buy if you hold it for the next 5 to 10 years. US banks espacialy BAC depends on the US real estate market which now still on trouble.


----------



## Financial Cents (Jul 22, 2010)

I wouldn't know what U.S. bank to buy. That whole sector is a mess. I have a friend who bought BAC at $14, thinking it was on the way back up, including its dividend. Not so much. You might have to sit on this one for a few years (>5) and just hope it climbs back. 

BAC:US dividend is sad.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Financial Cents said:


> BAC:US dividend is sad.


You forgot Citigroup.  Bought before the split at $3+.

I have BAC too; now averaged down to $11+, but I bought it for a decade or two.


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Financial Cents said:


> I wouldn't know what U.S. bank to buy. That whole sector is a mess. I have a friend who bought BAC at $14, thinking it was on the way back up, including its dividend. Not so much. You might have to sit on this one for a few years (>5) and just hope it climbs back.
> 
> BAC:US dividend is sad.


I thought BAC was a good buy at $13.

I never bought in, though. Good thing!


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Interesting that on last Friday sell off American banks like BAC, JPM (where I have small position), FWC were up 
To tell the truth, I don't see any logic here....


----------



## drvrage (Aug 12, 2011)

*Oh gawd not BAC!!!*

Follow Zero Hedge and see what they think of BAC.

The 2008 changed their accounting rules so they can report, or should I say misreport the value of their assets based on the original pre-crash prices and not their current market prices.

You indeed, as has been said by previous posters, need a PhD in forensic accounting and buglary to get the details on what the company is worth. Their capital reserve rations stink, the debt problem is getting worse and without US jobs improvement all those loans they have are lemons. They have recently reduced bad loan reserves as well in order to boost earning (one time things). The ghost of AIG is also suing them for bad loans in the 2008 debacle.

I would not touch BAC at any price. Their business model is broken and without TARP and FED intervention they would have been insolvent long long ago. Their management can be best described as criminal. Caveat Emptor.


----------



## MoneyMaker (Jun 1, 2009)

Long BAC common and warrants.. should be back to 1% ROA eventually


----------



## Assetologist (Apr 19, 2009)

*Swing Trader*

BAC has been excellent for swing trading this week as it's price moved with larger peaks and troughs then most markets.

I personally bought Wed and sold yesterday although a case could be made for a 'buy and hold-your-nose' bet which is likely still has better odds then other lotto tickets.

*If* it survives intact, an investment today* could * be worth a substantial gain in a few months but I suppose that could be said for many stocks. This one is certainly being piled on with many layers of un-love and that generally means a large gain for brave contrarians lies in the future!?!


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

One of the foremost experts on the US banks, analyst Meredith Whitney, said the big ones are "zombie" banks that will depend on government intervention to survive. It will take at least 10 years for them to change their business structures to a new reality.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/44087025


----------



## Assetologist (Apr 19, 2009)

sags said:


> One of the foremost experts on the US banks, analyst Meredith Whitney, said the big ones are "zombie" banks that will depend on government intervention to survive. It will take at least 10 years for them to change their business structures to a new reality.
> 
> http://www.cnbc.com/id/44087025


Buy signal?


----------



## drvrage (Aug 12, 2011)

Assetologist said:


> Buy signal?


Or insolvency.


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

sags said:


> One of the foremost experts on the US banks, analyst Meredith Whitney, said the big ones are "zombie" banks that will depend on government intervention to survive. It will take at least 10 years for them to change their business structures to a new reality.
> 
> http://www.cnbc.com/id/44087025


Hopefully Whitney knows US banks better than she knows municipal bonds: 

http://moneywatch.bnet.com/investin...-whitney-could-she-have-been-more-wrong/2670/


----------



## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

Four Pillars said:


> Hopefully Whitney knows US banks better than she knows municipal bonds:
> 
> http://moneywatch.bnet.com/investin...-whitney-could-she-have-been-more-wrong/2670/


Some of the guys on this board have better track records than Meredith Whitney. 

She is so overrated and minus the one or two calls that made her a rock star in the finance world she's been dead wrong.

That being said, don't buy BAC. There are far better plays in the financial industry. Take a look at some regionals that are being hammered.


----------



## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> Hopefully Whitney knows US banks better than she knows municipal bonds:
> 
> http://moneywatch.bnet.com/investin...-whitney-could-she-have-been-more-wrong/2670/


That's why predictions are a stupid game that can make you look like an idiot, with that said the year is far from over and if she is close enough with her number in 2012 ( just a bit of time difference) she will not be as blonde as many make her out to be.

US governments of all levels as well as the banking system are in shits, she can still be right ;-)


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

TD Bank are buying BAC's Canadian MNBA credit card portfolio.

BAC gets cash, but selling assets isn't going to be good for their future.

Whitney said they would be selling assets.


----------



## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

I was excited about it when I saw that. Was thinking about getting a SmartCash card but now that we own it that makes my decision even easier. Hopefully we don't lower the cashback perks.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

To mitigate the higher rate of default in the new portfolio of credit card customers, TD said they were going to weed the MNBA portfolio of the low interest cards and those cardholders who don't meet their credit standards. Sounded like the Mastercard portfolio will closely resemble TD's Visa business.

They didn't say how they would cancel the cards.


----------



## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

If you followed M. Whitney's calls when she calls them, you'd have made money. Even though what she said is wrong at times when the market were frothy, but after a year it usually pans out.

BAC remains a mathematical phenomena. Math says it should be $20, but the lawsuits will eventually drains all its cash if everybody gets to receive several billions from BAC. I am in it because I believe Math will eventually trump short term thinking. If it doesn't happen in the end, I will change my belief. The media sentiment is now negative about BAC as can be seen in its reporting. 

For example, MBIA dropping its suits did not get reported at all. Everybody thought they were going to get paid and that price was baked into both stock's valuation. It was a non event and zero hedge (who is bearish on BAC) is one of those doom and gloom paper that should be taken with a grain of salt. It is good to read to understand the market, but if you follow them (Like their colossal silver call) you'd have lost big. They, just like every other oracle in this world on finances, eventually sell out.

Did not like the credit card acquisition. Now TD bought my broker, my credit card company and has my bank account.


----------



## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

BAC is in talks to sell $1B of unwanted real estate under Merill Lynch to Blackstone. That's $9.5B of sales in a week, something must be up...


----------



## peterk (May 16, 2010)

A nice change today for this dog, but I'm still down 40% . I suppose I'll just hold onto it though...till the bitter end.


----------



## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Buffett bought $5B of BAC? Huh? Another junky company for him to get bailed out like AIG...


----------



## peterk (May 16, 2010)

exxxxcellent


----------



## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

They do seem to be in a hurry to raise a lot of capital, which is a concern because the CEO did say he didn't need capital.

I do feel bad for the current shareholders of BAC, because they look at Buffet's deal and feel screwed over.

It'll get back to $10 eventually so if you're caught long, just hold on.


----------



## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

I believe that was said in the phone conference with Bruce and the context of that was about raising capital by diluting the common shares. The fear at that time and the fear that's been baked into the price as $6 was that BAC will need to raise capital with a huge dilutive event.

A few things were discussed as to how BAC can go on offensive to fight the nay sayers. (As we all know, ceo coming out to say anything leads to the opposite reaction) One of these event was a big investor investing in BAC (Warren) and I believe what will come next are:

Board and CEO buy BAC stocks after regulatory approval
Settlement of mortgage issues that were blocked by NY AG's


----------



## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

I certainly am very interested in BAC, probably more so than any of the Canadian banks.

My reasoning is that if BAC really kicks it into high gear, we could see capital appreciation in the 20 - 60% range and I am willing to miss out on a 3 - 5% dividend that our big 5 offer.

There is still 10 - 20% downside on BAC if they really get taken over by short sellers but the upside far outweighs the negatives at this point.


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Abha, although I agree with you on all accounts, I think that 10-20% downside is too conservative.

I think 20-30% is more likely.


----------



## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> Abha, although I agree with you on all accounts, I think that 10-20% downside is too conservative.
> 
> I think 20-30% is more likely.


At these levels, I think 30% would be far too severe and would be indicative of a death spiral similar to the banks that failed in 2008.

You never know though. I know a ton of smart people who are heavily short BAC


----------



## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Abha can you estimate their average net worth so I can consider this information properly? Smart means jack in trading.


----------



## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

Causalien said:


> Abha can you estimate their average net worth so I can consider this information properly? Smart means jack in trading.


Much more than mine. 

I'm jumping in with my own money on BAC (just not at this moment). If it can get to the $5's I'll go super long on this one. If it ends up in the $6's I'll take a half position.

Just look at the options market on BAC and you can figure out the sentiment pretty quickly.


----------



## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

Here's are two articles. One is bearish and the other is bullish. Both are pretty good reads, but it should be noted that they are opinions.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/289836-sell-the-pop-bank-of-america-s-deal-reeks-of-desperation

http://brontecapital.blogspot.com/2011/08/bank-of-america-time-everyone-took-long.html


----------



## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Millionaires or Billionaires?

Yes, I scanned the options market and it tells me what I need to know. The way they or you interpret it might be different than me though.


----------



## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

Well lets start with Warren Buffet who is a billionaire. He has a ton of faith in BAC although he got a sweetheart deal.

Then there's Bruce Berkowitz who is also a billionaire who owns 106.7 million shares. He holds the distinction of being named the Domestic-Stock Fund Manager of the Decade by Morningstar. Some might call it a fluff title but he does have a pretty impressive record if you exclude the past year.

John Paulson is another billionaire who owns tons of BAC but his under performance this year echos Bruce Berkowitz. Some call him the smartest guy in investing because of his genius moves during the sub-prime crisis.

These are all really smart guys who makes moves before the crowd follows. 

Now lets move on to the millionaires using the options market. The general sentiment is very bearish but there does seem to be a lot of people picking up sizable positions as of late.

I also read in a research report that the directors and CEO are going to start buying common shares to shore up confidence.


----------



## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

I meant whether or not your friends who are shorting are millionaires or billionaires. I am trying to gauge the sentiments of different tiers of people.

Where did you get the fact that smart money are buying puts? I got most of my data based on analysis bid ask spread at each tick to determine whether or not it is a sell or buy. This requires significant computing power for a stock as high volume as BAC, others pay monthly subscription fees for that.


----------



## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

Causalien said:


> I meant whether or not your friends who are shorting are millionaires or billionaires. I am trying to gauge the sentiments of different tiers of people.
> 
> Where did you get the fact that smart money are buying puts? I got most of my data based on analysis bid ask spread at each tick to determine whether or not it is a sell or buy. This requires significant computing power for a stock as high volume as BAC, others pay monthly subscription fees for that.


Oh. I'm not sure what their "net worth" is but I would imagine they do own 7 figure portfolios. 

They are extremely smart people whose opinions I respect, and they have worked in the securities industry for many years, if that means anything. At the end of the day, their or my opinion is no better than anyone else's.

For what its worth, BAC does looking like a screaming buy based on value, but this could be a deadly value trap and it looks like it still has considerable downside.


----------



## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Ok, so they manage other people's money in the 1 million dollar range. Or are they actually millionaires themselves?


----------



## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

Causalien said:


> Ok, so they manage other people's money in the 1 million dollar range. Or are they actually millionaires themselves?


I really don't know. They are wealthy individuals with experience in the securities industry and I really value and respect their opinions. I have no clue how much money they have or whether they manage other people's money. 

I can say that they have been more right than wrong and it was largely because of them that I was able to capitalize on some beaten down names in 2008 / 2009. 

Again, these guys are not investing savants but they are highly knowledgeable and well informed people.


----------



## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

That's pretty vague. Can you name their job position? So I can at least know what type of money they manage? Hedge fund? Mutual fund? Pension fund? I thought since it's not you, the rule of "don't reveal your amount" doesn't apply.


----------



## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Rumors about j.p morgan takeover?anybody hear about this?With the feds in the details?


----------



## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Donald are you one of the paid bashers or are you seriously that late at getting the 3 days old rumor?


----------



## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Sorry dude,guess i was a day late king....dumbing it down i guess,@ least we know now your the top dog,wish i had your intelligence and net worth whatever the fawk that is big shot.


----------



## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Causalien, why you knocking on Donald? You haven't finished interrogating Abha yet...


----------



## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

I have recently learned of people being paid to post. I jump on anyone I think is being paid and probably over reacted. Now that I think about it, why would they want to persuade Canadians.


----------



## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

That's why I stopped posting. 

Our discussion was turning into something that was detracting from the thread which was supposed to be about Bank of America.

In any case, anyone wanting to copy Buffet's move could buy Bank of America preferred shares which will give you a similar yield minus the warrants. 

You could actually do this with any of the big US financials that have been taken down but the most appealing to me are Bank of America and Citi


----------



## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Causalien said:


> I have recently learned of people being paid to post. I jump on anyone I think is being paid and probably over reacted. Now that I think about it, why would they want to persuade Canadians.


Anyone falling for it is probably sending money to Nigerian Queen, you can't save the world ;-)

I can see a scenario where some shady brokers or companies have people sign up for different message boards to spam the latest and greatest penny stock, not sure if they reached this board but I would think it would be pretty easy to tell who is here for the love of it, and who is just doing their job ;-) Such scenario most likely wouldn't apply to anything other than penny stock, not enough moving powers.

"pros knowing the world inside out" with nothing to back it up are apparently present, but that's a whole different discussion.


----------



## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

WSJ sources say BAC are looking for more assets to dump


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

ddkay said:


> WSJ sources say BAC are looking for more assets to dump


Bank of America Corp. intends to sell its correspondent mortgage business


----------



## v_tofu (Apr 16, 2009)

Should I buy some of this stock? Its only 6 dollars? Good price?


----------



## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

It'll be under $3 by November


----------



## v_tofu (Apr 16, 2009)

ddkay said:


> It'll be under $3 by November


But but.. Warren buffet bought!!! He is the Oracle of Obama, oops i mean Omaha!


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

ddkay said:


> It'll be under $3 by November


Then wouldn't Warren Buffett had waited before he invested 5 billion?


----------



## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

Under $3 would imply another 50%+ downside trajectory.

That would be devastating not only to the financial indices of the World, but the global economy.

BAC is truly in the must not fail category, especially with a presidential election coming up.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I suggest BAC be split up into multiple regional banks, and its present CEO and board fired.


----------



## v_tofu (Apr 16, 2009)

I don't understand this article, does it mean that Bank of America will go up? Afterall, Warren Buffet, the oracle of Obama bought the stock right? And he's definitely not a shill of crony capitalism!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/13/fitch-goldman-sachs-bank-_n_1009759.html


----------



## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

The downgrade is in regards to the health of their "credit". I wouldn't put too much weight into it but it's definitely another negative catalyst that will affect share price in the interim.


----------



## drvrage (Aug 12, 2011)

From Zero Hedge: 

Bank Of America Forces Depositors To Backstop Its $53 Trillion Derivative Book To Prevent A Few Clients From Departing The Bank
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 10/18/2011 - 15:02 BAC Bank of America Bank of America Barclays CIT Group Citigroup Counterparties Deutsche Bank Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation Federal Reserve General Electric Goldman Sachs goldman sachs Investment Grade Merrill Merrill Lynch Morgan Stanley ratings Royal Bank of Scotland Scott Alvarez

Bank of America, which today reported a big bottom line loss net of one-time beneficial items, did something quite tricky and extremely devious last month: it shifted anywhere up to the total of $53 trillion of the total derivatives it held as of June 30 (as Zero Hedge previously reported) on its books at Q2 from the Holding Company, which was downgraded last by Moody's from A2 to Baa1 (the third-lowest investment grade rating) to its retail bank, which was downgraded to the far more palatable A2 (from Aa3). The reason for the transfer? Bank customers who were uneasy with the fact that suddenly the collateral backstoping the operating entity handling their counterparty risk was downgraded to just above junk, demanded that said counterparty risk be mitigated by the bank's $1 trillon in deposits. In other words, as Bloomberg first reported when it broke this story, anywhere up to the full $53 trillion (we don't know for sure how much so we assume the worst case) is now fully and effectively backstopped explicitly by the bank's $1,041 trillion (as of September 30) deposits. Pardon's we meant the people's deposits: the same deposits which caused the bank's website to be inoperative for several days in a row after it was rumored that there was an electronic run on the bank. Why? Just so Bank of America can appears whatever remaining clients it has so they decide not to take their business to another derivative counterparty. And who is exposed to this latest idiocy? Why you. But that's not all: the FDIC, which is the entity backstopping the deposits in a worst-case scenario, is not happy with this move for obvious reasons. Yet even it is hopeless to override the Fed, which as Bloomberg reports, "has signaled that it favors moving the derivatives to give relief to the bank holding company." And so, once again, we see just how much more important to the Federal Reserve are interests of US taxpayers and savers, over those of the banks that effectively run the Fed.

Now the source tends to be a tad apocalyptic, but they have also been so very spot on on so many things. Caveat Emptor. BAC is only good as a short, but even the the Fed will just bail them out, so you really can't win. Best to just leave them out of the game.


----------



## King Tut (May 3, 2009)

Apparently, Warren Buffet thinks otherwise. The stock is around 0.3 of price to book value. I can't see this bank tanking... but it will be a long haul. Not suited for day traders, but a bargain for value investors.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

King Tut said:


> Not suited for day traders.


Quite the contrary KT! Day-traders don't expect to double returns on every trade.

Look at today's pricing chart & you'll see that one could have traded that stock more than once today. Not 100 shares of course.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=BAC


----------



## King Tut (May 3, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> Look at today's pricing chart & you'll see that one could have traded that stock more than once today. Not 100 shares of course.
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=BAC


*T.gal*, you are looking at the chart after the fact... when you place the order you really don't know which way it will go!


----------



## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

King Tut said:


> *T.gal*, you are looking at the chart after the fact... when you place the order you really don't know which way it will go!


Good point, however the charts from the past could be an indication of what may happen in the future.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

King Tut said:


> *T.gal*, you are looking at the chart after the fact... when you place the order you really don't know which way it will go!


Who said anything about knowing for certain which way a stock would go? 

You had made a general statement that BAC was a value stock & not suitable for day-trading and I said that it was & that had been my point, not that I had a crystal ball!

As it happens, I traded BAC twice that day. 

*Homerhomer:* you missed the point too! [yawn]


----------



## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> *Homerhomer:* you missed the point too! [yawn]


Nothing new, I miss so many points I am used to it, sometimes I miss them so badly I don't even notice anything was missed , but that's the whole point of missing them

So what did I miss


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

King Tut said:


> I can't see this bank tanking... but it will be a long haul. Not suited for day traders, but a bargain for value investors.


Why not suited for day-traders? 

edit: no pricing charts this time so King Tut/Homerhomer won't miss the point.


----------



## King Tut (May 3, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> As it happens, I traded BAC twice that day.


Ok... looking at today's chart in retrospect  and assuming you were able to predit the highest peak and lowest trough of the day, the difference was about $0.15, and if we assume you pay the lowest brokerage fee of $4.95 each way... let's also assume that you are trading in your TFSA so you don't have to pay tax on capital gains  you'd have to buy at least 132 stocks to break even. So unless if you were trading thousands of stocks, it would probably no be worthwhile your effort and time. I just don't like day trading!


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

*KT:* what I meant is that it's a good stock for those that can trade in high volume, not just a couple of hundred shares, hence no need to predict lowest/highest price as who could predict that anyway? 

Though it does not happen all the time, after you sell, shares do go back to same price as you purchased in earlier hours and even lower and that is when one can trade the same stock more than once.

Commission costs are low, so not an issue and if you buy/sell same stock more than once, but on same day, then you're only charged for one buy/sell, regardless how many times you may have purchased/sold same stock on a given day.

But now I see what you meant, that it is not a good stock to trade in low volume. Trading is not for everyone.


----------



## King Tut (May 3, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> *
> Commission costs are low, so not an issue and if you buy/sell same stock more than once, but on same day, then you're only charged for one buy/sell, regardless how many times you may have purchased/sold same stock on a given day.*


*

I learned something new today...  I always thought that every time you traded even same day, you'd have to pay commissions. Never done it before! Do you know if this applies to Questrade? does it have to be the same number of stocks?*


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

King Tut said:


> I. learned something new today...
> 
> 2. Do you know if this applies to Questrade? does it have to be the same number of stocks?


1. That's great, keep learning everyday! 

2. No, it doesn't matter the # of stocks, just the settlement date has to be the same, however, I'm not with Questrade, so confirm with them. I'm sure you can get a quick answer if you go for a chat on Questrade’s live help.


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

*King Tut:*

Here, I did the work for you...

William: Hello. Thank you for contacting Questrade. How may I help you today?

KAEJS: Hi, William

KAEJS: I was just wondering, I know some brokers don't charge double commissions if you trade the same stock in the same day. Example, If I were to buy 100 MSFT, Sell 100 MSFT, buy 100 MSFT and sell 100 MSFT again, do I incurr $4.95 x 4 in commission fees, or $4.95 x 2 in commission fees?

William: Yes we charge the lowest commission and it is always charged by different executions. Different buys and sells are different executions, and therefore are charged commission separately

KAEJS: Thank you, William.


----------



## King Tut (May 3, 2009)

Thank you KaeJS


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> 2. No, it doesn't matter the # of stocks, just the settlement date has to be the same, however, I'm not with Questrade, so confirm with them. I'm sure you can get a quick answer if you go for a chat on Questrade’s live help.


T Gal - Where do you do your trading? I wasn't aware that any brokerages had this option.

Is there a limit? Ie if you buy and sell RY 48 times during the day, is it still just one trade commission?


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Hmmm I bought BNS twice today sold once and paid $6.95 each time...crooks

duh ...this was using Investors Edge


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> T Gal - Where do you do your trading? I wasn't aware that any brokerages had this option.
> 
> Is there a limit? Ie if you buy and sell *RY* 48 times during the day, is it still just one trade commission?


Coincidentally, I think Royal Bank Direct Investing offers this feature.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

*KaeJS:* you asked the question very clearly, however, I'm not entirely sure the answer was as clear. 

Buying/selling are considered different executions, that much is understood.

When I'm not available to monitor my trades and/or buy in high volume, I split my purchase [of same stock] & buy in tranches, I do this to sort of DCA my cost. Today for example, I placed 3 separate buy orders for TLM [different prices] and they all filled. 1.5 hours later I sold. Because the settlement date is Oct.31st for all, I was charged 2 commission fees [not 4]. 

There are many people who buy in high volume & split their purchases for various reasons, so it doesn't sound right that Questrade would charge for each transaction, but then again, someone said that they charge $250 per certificate when other brokers charge $50.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Eder said:


> Hmmm I bought BNS twice today sold once and paid $6.95 each time...crooks
> 
> duh ...this was using Investors Edge


'crooks' - LOL. 

No Eder, if the settlement date was same, tomorrow you will see only 2 charges; 1 for the 2 buys and 1 for the sell. Check your account tomorrow and let us know.

Oh, and I know because I'm with CIBC too.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> Is there a limit? Ie if you buy and sell RY 48 times during the day, is it still just one trade commission?


I never tried buying/selling same stock 48 times on the same day, lol, but as far as I understood, if settlement date is the same, then 1 fee applies per execution.

So in above scenario, you would pay 2 commissions [buy/sell]. But if you have the 48x in mind, check with your broker.


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

At Questrade, buying in tranches still costs commissions.

Buy 100, Buy 100, Sell 200 = $4.95 x 3.

Each buy is considered an execution and the commission is applied, regardless if its the same settlement date.


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> *KaeJS:* you asked the question very clearly, however, I'm not entirely sure the answer was as clear.


Let's try this again.... 

Danny M: Thank you for contacting Questrade. My name is Danny. How may I help you?

KAEJS: Hi Danny

Danny M: Good afternoon. 

KAEJS: I was just wondering if there is a certain grace with commissions when using questrade. I know that some brokers will not charge multiple commissions if a stock is bought more than once and has the same settlement date. Example: If I buy 100 MSFT at 1pm, 100 MSFT at 2pm and sell 200 MSFT at 3pm, will I incur $4.95 x 3, or will I incur $4.95 x 2 because two of my buys were in the same day?

Danny M: I can help you with that. 

Danny M: It would be a commission for each separate transaction. In the example above, it would be $4.95 x 3.

KAEJS: Thank you, that is what I thought. Have a great day, Danny.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Yikes!


----------



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

it's different strokes at different brokers.

at one point in time tdw had an aggregating-all-buy-or-sell-trades-for-the-day-under-one-commish policy, which seems to be what some people, at least t.gal, are finding these days at cibc.

but quite some time ago tdw dropped this commish structure in favour of pay-as-you-go.

ie you buy 500 cnq in the am, you pays one commish. You buy another 300 cnq in the pm, another commish.


----------



## Betzy (Feb 7, 2011)

I am with TDW, now I'm going to call them and give them crap for getting rid of that, that would be awesome if they accepted this. Any one here using active broker from TDW?
I am looking at it and wondering about some real life feedback....


----------



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

betzy U R funny, when tdw had the aggregating commish, the actual commish was 29.95. When they dropped to 9.99 they went to pay-as-you-go.

i suspect that folks could call & give them see are eh pee til the end of time but would all be a total waste of breath.

think or swim, if & when it finally debuts for canadian securities, will be better than active trader. As everybody knows TOS has been delayed several times. So i also suspect that the real problem is that montreal exchange cannot accept option spreads. Mtl exch is an automated system that can't be modified to accept spread or pair orders. TOS offers spread trades. So it'll be a standoff until montreal agrees to rebuild its system. Ouf. What a mess.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Eder said:


> bought BNS twice today sold once and paid $6.95 each time...crooks


Don't forget to check your transaction history today and you'll see that you'll only have 2 lines on your transaction history and 2 charges, not 3.

Everyone says TD is best for everything, so how come they don't have the option of splitting one's trades.  

Lol Betzy, no wonder I could not understand your logo and that I could not find you at the Options Workshop.


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I checked on CIBC IE website and sure enough

https://www.investorsedge.cibc.com/ie/benefits/fees-and-commission/commission-rates.html#trader



> Full commissions and fees apply for each partial fill, except when transacted within the same business day. Commission charges will be consolidated at our discretion when multiple orders of the same type (buy vs. sell) are executed for the same security, within the same day, on the same exchange and in the same currency. Some exceptions may apply. Any consolidated trades will be treated as a single order for the purposes of trade counting.


Does anyone know (for a fact) if any other brokerages do this? I might have to update my brokerage comparison.


----------



## al42 (Mar 5, 2011)

Four Pillars said:


> I checked on CIBC IE website and sure enough
> 
> https://www.investorsedge.cibc.com/ie/benefits/fees-and-commission/commission-rates.html#trader
> 
> ...


I don't think RBC is the same, if order is filled in 2 or 3 lots only one commission fee will be charged. But if you enter another order for the same security and it gets filled you will be charged again.

A trade is defined as a commissionable filled equity or option order. Trades that are consolidated will count as one trade.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> I checked on CIBC IE website and sure enough.


You didn't trust me?


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> You didn't trust me?


"Trust no one" - Fox Mulder. 

I believed you, however I wasn't sure if this was something that applied to all CIBC clients. Sounds like it is.


----------



## King Tut (May 3, 2009)

I know that with Questrade, let's say you order 245 stocks of abc company. Questrade then has the ECN system fill the order, and it could be 100 +100 + 45, however, you would be charged the $4.95 only once as long as the order is filled on the same day. The exception is if the fill spills into the next day, so for instance, 100 in day 1 and 100 + 45 in day two, you would be charged $4.95 on day 1 and $4.95 on day 2.


----------



## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

CDS market is probably in disarray with a 50% write down not being a credit event. I would say some bank failure is within 2 months. Going to go through the CDS portfolio of BAC and see if there's any bond/CDS pair that will be at risk..

And ABHA, I am sorry for doubting you. I had a long discussion with my hedge fund friend who used to work in BAC, I think I know what was going on in the past few months and why the target was $5. But now, I wouldn't short.


BTW did you buy like you suggested? I doubled my TARP warrant exposure around $5.70


----------



## v_tofu (Apr 16, 2009)

Is now a good time to buy this stock? It's too big to fail right?


----------



## Rommel (Nov 1, 2010)

v_tofu said:


> Is now a good time to buy this stock? It's too big to fail right?


I am tempted to say yes but they are making very stupid decisions lately.


----------



## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

It's not too big to be diluted into the stone age.


----------



## newbie (Dec 12, 2009)

OptsyEagle said:


> It's not too big to be diluted into the stone age.


well stone age is deffiintely near
what a beating man.
all banks today
bound to go lower


----------



## AK_Tool (Dec 25, 2011)

*Investment in US Stocks*

Hi, I guys I would recommned Wells Fargo WFC on the weakness.

I have in stock for the last ten years and I would recommend the following
before buying any stock. Otherwise is like Gambling with your money.

1. Try to understand the valuation of the company is as whole
2. Read as many information about the company .
3. See it the company has a niche or not in it product.
4. Buy on the at least at 50% discount.
5. Look at the growth in sales, rev, ROIC, etc. 
6. Spend considerable amount of time and money on analysing the 
company.
7. Learn about the management of company.
8. At least keep stock for 3 years after buying unless fundamentals have 
changed.
9. Buy when every body is selling.

10. Dont time the market.

Regards.
AK


----------



## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

i have some more advice: 
Buy low sell high
Plant your corn early
Look both ways before you cross the street
Don't pee into the wind

Hope this helps. Just trying to be a little funny. Cheers.


----------



## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

So... a major TA trend is about to bump into a major FA trend. This is a very interesting phenomena for me. I want to see which one will win.


----------



## newbie (Dec 12, 2009)

Causalien said:


> So... a major TA trend is about to bump into a major FA trend. This is a very interesting phenomena for me. I want to see which one will win.


if u think BOFA is a good trade buy it man.
buffet bought what 1 billion dollars at 7.5.
difference is he can be insolvent way longer than me i guarantee u that


----------



## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Lol. Guess what I did. Whatever happens, there will be a big move.


----------



## newbie (Dec 12, 2009)

Causalien said:


> Lol. Guess what I did. Whatever happens, there will be a big move.


i am sure a big move will happen eventually.
did u buy below 5 bux?


----------



## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Nah, I only did did volatility options at 5.17 and 5.32


----------



## sam (Mar 16, 2012)

anyone holding this stock ? what do you guys think ?


----------



## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Causalien did FA or TA lead this move?


----------



## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

ddkay said:


> Causalien did FA or TA lead this move?


I am buried in papers doing my taxes right now. But if this is important for you. I can dig, on first impression it's TA.


----------



## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Not so important, just wondering 

BAC's rally paused at $10.10 50% fib level. Momentum is slowing and I think it can do another 50% retrace to ~$7.50. I have these dates circled on my calendar: France elections (April 22), FOMC meeting (April 24-25), Greece elections (May 6th), IMF/G20 $430B bailout fund securement at Los Cabos (June 18-19). If IMF and ESM have EUR1T ready and nothing unexpected happens they should be able to support Italy and Spain with no market assistance until the end of 2014.


----------



## PMREdmonton (Apr 6, 2009)

sam said:


> anyone holding this stock ? what do you guys think ?


I bought at 5.30 and sold out at 7.50. I thought it went too far, too fast.

The problem with this company is what kind of income will they produce in the end after they get through all the foreclosure related losses and all the associated lawsuits. They do hope to become a large retail bank that does a lot on the mortgage front. However, I don't know that their income generating capacity is all that great now and they need the decreases in loan loss provisions to show actual profits. I still think it should trade at a hefty discount to book value but I'm not sure exactly where that should be.

I wouldn't mind buying in again around 7.00.

I know it is very contrarian becauuse of all the problems in Spain but I like STD (soon to be SAN) in the international banking realm. They generate tons of profits and have set aside a lot of money to deal with non-performing loans. The markets have really battered it and so those who aren't invested may want to wait on the sidelines. The other advantage you get here is you can avoid dividend withholding taxes as they will distribute the dividend to you in shares if you wish. You can then sell those shares to collect the dividend if you wish and only pay associated capital gains taxes.


----------



## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

PMREdmonton said:


> I bought at 5.30 and sold out at 7.50. I thought it went too far, too fast.
> 
> The problem with this company is what kind of income will they produce in the end after they get through all the foreclosure related losses and all the associated lawsuits. They do hope to become a large retail bank that does a lot on the mortgage front. However, I don't know that their income generating capacity is all that great now and they need the decreases in loan loss provisions to show actual profits. I still think it should trade at a hefty discount to book value but I'm not sure exactly where that should be.
> 
> ...


The only quirk that I can mention off the top of my head is that so far, the rebound has been an exact replay of the previous recovery. Even Mike Mayo's downgrade is the same. Funny how with all the information out there on the web, there's no service to help you remember the history of a stock besides your own memory.


----------

