# Car Buying Research



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

What web sites or resources do you folks use when buying a car?
I'm looking for things like : expert/user reviews, invoice prices, deals/quotes from dealers, etc.
Most of the web sites I'm finding are either funded by dealership groups and thus full of advertisements, or contain very general useless reviews.

Also, does anyone have any experience of DealFinder Inc.
http://www.dealfinder.org/

I have seen their ads in Money Sense and Money Saver magazines.
They charge $159 for doing all the research and guarantee the best deal.
Does it make sense to use a service like this and save yourself the time/effort?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I don't think the answer for this lies in the Internet. I think the answer is to go by local reputation. There are numerous websites out there as you point out, and few of them provide useful customer-driven content. This is one area where they seem to have won. I've tried various things online through the years and it was mostly a waste of time.

Best you can hope for is a site like edmunds to give you some idea of values, but even that doesn't obligate any dealer to give you anything for your trade. I bought a car last summer and the only thing helpful on the Internet was finding local dealers.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

If buying a used car, CARFAX will detail all insurance/damage and dealer servicing history for the particular car you wish to buy. You supply the VIN number, they serve up the history on that car.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I'm more interested in reviews and analysis of a specific make/model rather than background check on an individual car.
I can of course hop from dealership to dealership but would like to arm myself with solid research first so that I know what questions to ask, what their bottom line is, etc.
At the very least, I need information on : options and pricing of each option, invoice price of the car, any specific discounts currently going on, expert reviews, user reviews.
Then, armed with this information, I can shop around with dealers and price compare.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

The internet is by far the best source of info imo

I use forums for the specific car. Any car with a strong following will have all the little details well covered on these forums. I find there are more knowledgeable posters than a mech or salesman. The only thing is problems tend to be overly emphasized and repeated, making you think they happen more than they actually do.

Any professional magazine or web site is useless imo beyond very basic info. They aren't going to bite the hands that feed them. If you're looking for a new car that just came out, it's impossible to really know much

Carcostcanada will give you the invoice price, and it's repeated all over the net. The dealers know a lot of people have figured out how to use the internet and I think set the invoice price knowing people will expect to get it + a small profit. You can pretty much guess what the invoice is as all manufacturers pretty much set it a certain $$ below MSRP

I wish there was a guy for every car like Joe Spitz is to Subaru. He posts every little detail he is privileged to as a salesman in an easy to read presentation (read: not purposely misleading by the marketing department) He sells to Canadians at wholesale prices with no bs. Buying from the States is not as good as it used to be though

There should be a wiki for every car. Than you wouldnt have to read so much forums posts


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> At the very least, I need information on : options and pricing of each option, invoice price of the car, any specific discounts currently going on, expert reviews, user reviews.
> Then, armed with this information, I can shop around with dealers and price compare.


Look at cars101.com

This is what you're looking for but it only covers Subaru unfortunately

I have paid for consumerreports and it didn't cover any of that. It's basically a magazine and they don't even cover all models


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

Personally, I like driving all the cars I'm interested in at the dealerships. For the best prices in Canada, carcostcanada.ca; in the US, Costco.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

steve41 said:


> If buying a used car, CARFAX will detail all insurance/damage and dealer servicing history for the particular car you wish to buy. You supply the VIN number, they serve up the history on that car.


Anyone who believes this should watch the Marketplace segment they did on Carfax. I advise no one to use this service.


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## Seth (Aug 16, 2010)

I successfully used car cost Canada to negotiate a great deal on my purchase last month...

I still have a couple of credits left for the site... as a favor to a fellow frugal forum member, once you've narrowed it down to the make / model / accessories you're interested in buying, post them here and I'll run it through my CCC account.

Save yourself the 19.99


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

youtube the car and model for reviews. TOns of stuff on there. 
Carcost canada post the dealer's cost, MSRP, model differences. 

I have owned about 11 vehicles in my life. All bought used except, we bought a new car last year from a dealer and I will never do it again. Horrible experience. They want to ride and rip you for every add on, lie and mislead with warrenty purchases, upgraded models, etc.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

Addy said:


> Anyone who believes this should watch the Marketplace segment they did on Carfax. I advise no one to use this service.


Why would you advise people to not use a (very cheap) service just because it sometimes misses info? It still has the potential to provide useful information.

I recommend getting a Carfax AND a Carproof, if one misses something the other one probably won't.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

is OP looking for a new car, or used car?
going to be a meandering thread without that info


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## Turbo88 (Jan 18, 2011)

An alternative source for car invoice price reports is www.carsaver.ca. They have the most up to date rebates and incentives and are free to use.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

hystat said:


> is OP looking for a new car, or used car?
> going to be a meandering thread without that info


Sorry, I should have clarified : looking for a new car.
Currently debating between Ford Flex, Dodge Grand Caravan and Nissan Quest, leaning heavily towards the Flex.
No rush to buy, can wait several months for a good deal.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Have you looked at the Ford Fusion, Harold? I was quite impressed when I test drove one last year. Otherwise the Honda Accord rates highly and Camry is a very reliable car but these two cost much more than the Focus.

There are also lots of recent used cars on the market 2-3 years old and much cheaper than new. Mfr warranty still available if car new enough.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Have you looked at the Ford Fusion, Harold?


Yes, I have (briefly).
The Fusion is more like a cross-over/small SUV.
The Flex has more seating capacity than the Fusion.
I agree that the Fusion is probably more feature packed and better value for money, but doesn't meet my requirements of seating capacity.


> Otherwise the Honda Accord rates highly and Camry is a very reliable car but these two cost much more than the Focus.


The Accord, Camry and Focus are all sedans and, while good cars in their own category, don't meet my seating capacity requirements.
I have considered the Honda and Toyota minivans like the Odyssey and Sienna.
While they are great vehicles and have legendary durability, I'm not sure I agree with the huge premium they ask for vis-a-vis the American manufacturers.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

New Dodge Caravans were available with a huge discount a few months ago, I don't know if they still are. You could get one for well under 20k out the door.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> I have considered the Honda and Toyota minivans like the Odyssey and Sienna.
> While they are great vehicles and have legendary durability, I'm not sure I agree with the huge premium they ask for vis-a-vis the American manufacturers.


It's true the Japanese are a bit overpriced based on their reputation

You should not discount Hyundai / Kia though as they are priced well and have the better warranties. Difference being they are _making_ a name for themselves


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

What I don't like about the Flex is that you sit at the same level as a sedan but with an extra foot of headroom. If you can get used to that, it is well-appointed. There is a car rental company in Quebec that has a fleet of Flex's so you might get a good deal on a resale.

The Dodge Caravan is discounted for a reason. You might get lucky.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Use autos.ca for used and new car reviews. Formerly CanadianDriver.com all canadian content!


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

kcowan said:


> What I don't like about the Flex is that you sit at the same level as a sedan but with an extra foot of headroom. If you can get used to that, it is well-appointed.


Interesting...that is actually one of the features that I _like_ about it.
It is sportier than a minivan, has better, more modern looks and design than a minivan, and you don't sacrifice much room.
Most of the minivans these days are not really the true 7-seaters they used to be.
They are 6 at best or more like 5.5.
In that regard, Flex's the same.



> The Dodge Caravan is discounted for a reason. You might get lucky.


The Caravan is actually a piece of s*th.
I rented one a couple of months ago and was hugely disappointed.
The Caravans from a few years ago were better than the one they've been dishing out since 2009, for example.
It is under-powered, cheap interior and generally a very inferior vehicle esp. when compared to the imports.
I've pretty much narrowed down to the Flex, unless something better shows up in the next few months.

For now, I'm reading up the reviews.

As for the buying part, it seems that it's best to get the invoice price using CarCostCanada.com and then shop around local dealerships and try to get the best possible deal.
Or go with a paid service like the Deal Finder Inc.
Any other options/suggestions?


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## rookie (Mar 19, 2010)

i would also consider buying Japanese from across the border.


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Interesting...that is actually one of the features that I _like_ about it.
> It is sportier than a minivan, has better, more modern looks and design than a minivan, and you don't sacrifice much room.
> Most of the minivans these days are not really the true 7-seaters they used to be.
> They are 6 at best or more like 5.5.
> ...



I rented a Flex while in Florida last year and had never even sat in one before. I was amazed at the amount of interior room and with the third row down it really has almost as much cargo capacity as a minivan. It was also nice to drive and I did think at the time that it was a vehicle I could see myself buying as a family/dog hauler.

I own a Grand Caravan that I bought and paid cash for. Its a 2010 and pretty loaded. To be honest its a great van, especially for under $30k out the door including tax, remote starter, factory dvd, etc. I was going to buy a Toyota or Honda but the Grand Caravan with the same equipment was about $11,000 less out the door. I did buy an extended warranty but in 15 months haven't had a single issue that needed repair. It gets brutal fuel economy but other than that I am happy with the purchase.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Ihatetaxes said:


> I was going to buy a Toyota or Honda but the Grand Caravan with the same equipment was about $11,000 less out the door. I did buy an extended warranty but in 15 months haven't had a single issue that needed repair. It gets brutal fuel economy but other than that I am happy with the purchase.


Yes, the Grand Caravan has more features dollar-for-dollar compared to the imports.
You can buy 3 fully loaded Caravans for one basic Odyssey.
IMHO, the imports have been over-charging premium for the perceived reliability/quality.
My gripe with the Caravan was the underpower.
Also, the back row seat is not really 3 adults - more like 2 adults at best.
We put a baby seat at the back and there was just enough room for 1 adult.

I'd also consider the Caravan better value than the Quest and VW (Routan?) minivans, which are essentially American made but sold at the Japanese premium.
I seem to recall that the VW is essentially the old Chystler Town and Country re-branded and being sold with a premium mark up.
It's even manufactured in the Chystler shops in the US.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> It is under-powered, cheap interior and generally a very inferior vehicle esp. when compared to the imports.


You do know that most vehicles are available with multiple engine choices, right? So if you drove the base model of the Caravan which has a 175 hp 3.3L V6 (most rentals tend to be base models), it would not be the same driving experience as a higher trim line Caravan which would have the 283 hp 3.6L V6. I think it's actually the most powerful engine available in any minivan (the top of the line Odyssey and Sienna have 248 and 266 hp respectively).

The same is true of the interior, the top of the line trim is much nicer than the base mode. Here's some pics of the interior, it looks ok to me: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v56/T-Man/2011 Dodge Grand Caravan/dash.jpg


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## MikeT (Feb 16, 2010)

Buying my car was the reason I started my subscription to consumer reports. I really enjoy reading it every month now for all the other things, but they do a bunch of independent analysis on all the new cars.


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