# Politics - Corruption



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Well the NDP just decided to prop up the government, and not investigate potential corruption. I was just watching the vote.

I find it disturbing that Trudeau will go this far to stop investigations into his actions.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I find it disturbing the Conservatives have nothing better to do than waste the government's time while Canada is in a pandemic.

Poor judgement exhibited by O"Toole once again. Where is he getting his advice from ? O'Toole is worse than Scheer on lack of judgement.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I find it disturbing the Conservatives have nothing better to do than waste the government's time while Canada is in a pandemic.
> 
> Poor judgement exhibited by O"Toole once again. Where is he getting his advice from ? O'Toole is worse than Scheer on lack of judgement.


Investigating corruption is a waste of time?

O'Toole seems to be doing pretty good, even Muclair has said so.

Trudeau almost called an election to avoid a corruption investigation, that's desperation.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

The WE scandal runs very deep, (as do others) but it seems Canadians are content with the unscrupulous characters running this country.

Hopefully O'Toole can keep the iron hot so we don't need to wait 3 more years for an election.


----------



## ddivadius (Apr 28, 2017)

MrMatt said:


> Investigating corruption is a waste of time?
> 
> O'Toole seems to be doing pretty good, even Muclair has said so.
> 
> Trudeau almost called an election to avoid a corruption investigation, that's desperation.


Agreed. Justin is an embarrassment to Canadians. Almost as cringy as the Orange Man. Corruption by the elected leader and his groupies should not be tolerated.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Sorry but the PCs lost the last election when these issues were on the agenda. The PCs don't get to stack the committtees or make the rules......nice try though.

They could have elected a better leader but they are stuck with O'Toole now for at least one election. Maybe they could develop a policy or two as well.

The Liberals and NDP have important work to do. Canadians don't want fishing expeditions. They want results and like that Trudeau delivers them.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Sorry but the PCs lost the last election when these issues were on the agenda. The PCs don't get to stack the committtees or make the rules......nice try though.
> 
> They could have elected a better leader but they are stuck with O'Toole now for at least one election. Maybe they could develop a policy or two as well.
> 
> The Liberals and NDP have important work to do. Canadians don't want fishing expeditions. They want results and like that Trudeau delivers them.


Results, like the government with the most ethics scandals ever.
No budget, no plan.

Populism is all well and good for a while, but Canadians are wising up, and it's time we put the grown ups back in charge.

O'Toole wasn't my first choice, but he seems to be intelligent and have enough humility to earn respect. Irrespective of political stripes you have to admit, calling an election to stop a corruption inquiry is not a good for the Liberals.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

O'Toole has nothing to offer. His plan is to bash Trudeau like Harper and Scheer........and he will fail just as miserably as they did.

The Conservatives whine so much they should buy a cheese factory.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Imagine a democracy that is too busy or too occupied or so overworked that possible conflict of interest schemes are insignificant? Sort of like Trudeau hiding behind the Jordan Rule and a speedy resolution.

Canadian's are so desperate for a leader that he is given a licence to pull off another sponsorship scandal. Contracting with firms connected to the Liberal Party and who charge exorbidant prices and then funnel 25% into political advertising during a campaign. That is how we fund political parties in Canada.
Just do a seach for "Consultant" in government documents and see where political cronies go to die,


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

It doesn't matter how many investigations or hearings there are, the Conservatives will never accept the findings and always want another. It is all they have.

Why stop with the Liberals. Why not investigate every MP and their families for any possible evidence of "corruption" ?

If the Liberals go down one rabbit hole, the Conservatives will dig two more. It is a complete waste of time and focus and Canadians know it.

Let the opposition toddle off to the back rooms and play with Lego. The government has work to do.


----------



## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

Trudeau has already broken laws 2x on ethics. Disgraced Finance Minister Bill Morneau 1 x . Both are under more RCMP investigations again for WE. Morneau, who somehow forgot about being comped for $40,000 , then resigned in disgrace over this so there is something there. Liberals shut down committees investigating these new crimes too by lying to people saying it was to prepare a throne speech.

A throne speech w no budget or promises. Now they want to hand pick a committee and try and bury their latest lawlessness and scandal. Canadians deserve answers not Liberal deceit, un accountability and cover ups.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Seriously, all this stuff has already been investigated and worked over and over. O'Toole talked about re-investigating Trudeau's vacations for goodness sakes.

Conservatives need to move on and O'Toole should stop taking marching orders from Pierre Poilivere and the radical right Reformers in the Conservative party.

They are on the road to nowhere, and making it way too easy for the Liberals to win again. Too bad for them they didn't elect Peter McKay as leader.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

The argument is that Trudeau is refusing to set up a parliamentary committee to "Review" huge spending "Historical" spending agreements .... Just how much disruption would a committee create? And Trudeau should recuse himself during the investigation and allow the Opposition to chair the committee.

If Trudeau has nothing to hide, why is he hiding behind an excuse of being too busy?

Trudeau needs to make the time or maybe do some time.

I might be too busy to vote for Trudeau and The Clowns next time.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> The argument is that Trudeau is refusing to set up a parliamentary committee to "Review" huge spending "Historical" spending agreements .... Just how much disruption would a committee create? And Trudeau should recuse himself during the investigation and allow the Opposition to chair the committee.
> 
> If Trudeau has nothing to hide, why is he hiding behind an excuse of being too busy?
> 
> ...


I don't have any time for a corruption inquiry.
Do you have ANY IDEA how many ethics guidelines I've broken? 
Just because I'm giving money to people who give money to my friends and family, or interferere with criminal prosecutions you're picking on me.
It's almost like some people think using my political position to benefit myself is wrong.

To be fair, he's clearly a master politician, Bev Oda resigned because of a glass of orange juice.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Yea well....September to October, the Liberals went up in the polls and the Conservatives went down.

The Conservatives now have an 8% chance of winning an election.

Demanding partisan "witch hunts" isn't going to help the Conservatives improve their numbers.

Conservatives may not be happy with Trudeau, but it appears that Canadians are.



https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

With this pandemic, the voters want a Socialist and if a vote were held today, Trudeau and his Part-Time Socialist Party would win any vote.

That is a given.

I don't think that corruption is any part of that voter intention.

Trudeau is using his "Socialist" programs to hide behind. Accept corruption or the Conservatives will take all the social programs away.

Trudeau is like a Wall Street bank ..... Too big to fail.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Trudeau is weak in English. So he is a sitting duck for smart opponents like Pierre Poilievre But he and his cronies never answer questions. They just spout the party line. And continue to spend on his pet projects without regards to Canadians.

His failures during 2020 are legion. I think he got rid of Moroneau because he was avoiding some fiscal accountability.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Conservatives are great at bickering and fishing for juicy scandals / screwups. However they lack at bringing anything new to the table; so they are stuck in an endless spiral of b*tching against liberals/NDP. Canadians want to see a plan; sadly cons don't have any substance behind their barks. Full disclaimer: I hate Trudeau too.


----------



## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

fstamand said:


> Conservatives are great at bickering and fishing for juicy scandals / screwups. However they lack at bringing anything new to the table; so they are stuck in an endless spiral of b*tching against liberals/NDP. Canadians want to see a plan; sadly cons don't have any substance behind their barks. Full disclaimer: I hate Trudeau too.


That's unfortunately the case. Every election the Conservatives campaign on the "We're not them platform", but never come up with a good reason to vote for them. It's an okay strategy to oppose when in opposition, but it's not great when you actually want to run the country.

You just have to look at the USA, the Republicans have absolutely no policy for this election other than, "We do what Trump says". The only thing they stand for is to oppose the government (kind of a neat trick when you actually occupy all the branches of government), cut taxes, make sure everyone has guns, and stack the Supreme Court. They had/have no vision. They just want to complain and don't actually bring anything useful to the table.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

bgc_fan said:


> That's unfortunately the case. Every election the Conservatives campaign on the "We're not them platform", but never come up with a good reason to vote for them. It's an okay strategy to oppose when in opposition, but it's not great when you actually want to run the country.
> 
> You just have to look at the USA, the Republicans have absolutely no policy for this election other than, "We do what Trump says". The only thing they stand for is to oppose the government (kind of a neat trick when you actually occupy all the branches of government), cut taxes, make sure everyone has guns, and stack the Supreme Court. They had/have no vision. They just want to complain and don't actually bring anything useful to the table.


I agree, the Conservatives need a better platform.

However the reality is things are pretty good, I simply want to government to stop screwing stuff up.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

bgc_fan said:


> That's unfortunately the case. Every election the Conservatives campaign on the "We're not them platform", but never come up with a good reason to vote for them. It's an okay strategy to oppose when in opposition, but it's not great when you actually want to run the country.
> 
> You just have to look at the USA, the Republicans have absolutely no policy for this election other than, "We do what Trump says". The only thing they stand for is to oppose the government (kind of a neat trick when you actually occupy all the branches of government), cut taxes, make sure everyone has guns, and stack the Supreme Court. They had/have no vision. They just want to complain and don't actually bring anything useful to the table.


Stacking the court is adding additional seats not filling vacancies. Stop posting false information.

And what is the entire Democrat platform..."we're not Trump". I guess they're too scared to say that their real agenda to turn the country into a socialist hellhole.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

When Conservatives run for office telling everybody what they are going to take away.

The Liberals run for office telling everybody what they can keep.

The NDP can never win because they tell everyone the truth and it is too depressing to hear. So we ignore them.


----------



## TomF (Jul 26, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> . . .
> I find it disturbing that Trudeau will go this far to stop investigations into his actions.


That may be part of it.
I think the main reason he did this is because he wants an election. For some reason, he thinks if an election were held now, he would win a majority--and then heaven help us all, because there would be no holding him back from the crap he wants to do to Canada.

He will do something similar again soon. Count on it. He wants an election. But he doesn't want to look like he's the one triggering it.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Cities are going to implode.
Both the Service Industry and tourism Industry have collapsed.
Trudeau will need to place the military on all major city streets.
Trudeau will not ever get consent to introduce the military for social control without a majority.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

There should be 50 SCOTUS Judges, one appointed from every State. The Democrats should add 41 more.


TomF said:


> That may be part of it.
> I think the main reason he did this is because he wants an election. For some reason, he thinks if an election were held now, he would win a majority--and then heaven help us all, because there would be no holding him back from the crap he wants to do to Canada.
> 
> He will do something similar again soon. Count on it. He wants an election. But he doesn't want to look like he's the one triggering it.


Michelle Rempell and the Conservatives just put another motion forward. It appears it is the Conservatives who want an election.

They might get one this time, as the NDP and Bloc say they will support the motion.

I think there should be an election. Let Canadians decide.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> There should be 50 SCOTUS Judges, one appointed from every State. The Democrats should add 41 more.


So if you can't convince the people to vote for you on your policies, then change the rules so the people no longer have a voice.

That makes perfect sense....but only if you're brainwashed and think communism is better.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Michelle Rempel is a foghorn. She signed that ridiculous Buffalo Declaration that most other Conservative MPs had the good sense to ignore.

The latest opinion poll that I saw this past week places the Liberals ahead of the Conservatives if there was an election today. The other issue is voters have no clue who Erin O'Toole is. The last thing the Conservatives want is for him to be defined by the Liberals in the eyes of voters. 

Besides, I suspect that there is a great deal of lingering damage and broken china from Scheer's mess in the vote rich urban areas. Plus...the Conservatives are having a great deal of challenge recruiting cabinet minister material to run in these urban ridings. It is a problem for them.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> So if you can't convince the people to vote for you on your policies, then change the rules so the people no longer have a voice.
> 
> That makes perfect sense....but only if you're brainwashed and think communism is better.


There is absolutely no rule that there are 9 SCOTUS justices. Stop making stuff up.

And if people use their voice to elect a Dem Senate and President, isn't that empowering those voters if they then appoint additional justices to SCOTUS.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Add or Subtract ..... What does the majority of Americans want the Supreme Court to do? What changes to law?

I am all pro court changes.

Get rid of Citizens United
Elections to be publicly funded.
No more Gerrymandering.

Must hire Polling Workers or hire and train census workers to become poll workers. Must guarantee no longer than 30 minutes to cast a vote nation-wide.

Supreme Court:

The U.S. constitution does not give the supreme court authority over Congress. The court created this rule themselves in 1803. (Marbury versus Madison)

"The Law" is nothing but an amorphous body of assertions made by jurists in previous cases to justify the decisions they favored.

Supreme Court decisions are made on the basis of what jurists call "controlling rules."


----------



## potato69 (Mar 21, 2018)

The Case Against Donald Trump


The president of the United States poses a threat to our collective existence. The choice voters face is spectacularly obvious.




www.theatlantic.com


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Prairie Guy said:


> And what is the entire Democrat platform..."we're not Trump". I guess they're too scared to say that their real agenda to turn the country into a socialist hellhole.


I respectfully disagree, Biden has a platform and a vision. Trump just has an ego. He brings nothing new to the table except the blind blanket statement of no new tax hikes and won't take your guns.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

fstamand said:


> I respectfully disagree, Biden has a platform and a vision. Trump just has an ego. He brings nothing new to the table except the blind blanket statement of no new tax hikes and won't take your guns.


I agree, Biden has a bad platform and a twisted evil vision for the future, and is supported (somewhat) by extremists who want to destroy modern civilization.

Trump brings nothing new to the table, except he's fighting against those who wish to destroy society.
It does take a certain amount of ego and arrogance to push back against a major political party (if not both), and the media to do what you know is right.

I'm not saying what Trump thinks is right actually is. Or that I agree with all his actions.
But when you look at what Biden and his supporters want to do... Trump is definately the lesser evil.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

There is nothing left to bring to the table.
America must elect a "Manager" who has the confidence of a majority of citizens.

America can not afford another 2 years of Covid-19.
America needs a Manager who can manage the decline of the American Empire.

Trump can not "Manage" the task which lies ahead because he lacks majority support.

Make no mistake, it is Take-Away Time in North America and Joe Biden is the better salesperson to execute the change.
Joe Biden will need to explain how the citizenry have gone from Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous to Pawnshop and Storage Wars and Repo Games.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> There is nothing left to bring to the table.
> America must elect a "Manager" who has the confidence of a majority of citizens.
> 
> America can not afford another 2 years of Covid-19.
> ...


Trump doesn't have majority support, but neither does Biden.
I believe that the majority of their "support" is simply "not-the-other-guy", if anything I think there are more true Trump supporters than Biden supporters.

Most people are embarrassed that these are the two candidates.


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> I agree, Biden has a bad platform and a twisted evil vision for the future, and is supported (somewhat) by extremists who want to destroy modern civilization.


What is his twisted evil vision? I haven't heard of this.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

I agree that the voting will "Frame" a majority.
Understand that I am always trying or kind of viewing the situation as near collapse and necessary for martial law.

The only reason the Upper Class ask you to vote is because as the "Leader Of The Free World" must "Appear" to have the consent of the majority. 51%
No president would rightfully feel legitimate without 51 percent.

How could a U.S. president parade around the "Free World" when at home the new president has Martial Law?
The next president must have a 60 percent majority to introduce martial law and hold his chest high when getting all the medals of a winner.

The choice for the newly elected president is to print 10 trillion dollars just to remain in neutral or Martial Law.


----------



## potato69 (Mar 21, 2018)




----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Just returning simple normalcy and decency to the office of President will be a huge relief for Americans.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Spudd said:


> What is his twisted evil vision? I haven't heard of this.


Implementing systematic racism at the federal level, discriminatory law enforcement, massive taxation and wealth redistribution, significant increase in poverty traps. 
Infringement on constitutional rights.
Process manipulation to achieve goals, ie expand the supreme court to bias it with judges who are willing to legislate from the bench. It's legal, but a very unethical way to push your agenda.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> I agree that the voting will "Frame" a majority.
> Understand that I am always trying or kind of viewing the situation as near collapse and necessary for martial law.
> 
> The only reason the Upper Class ask you to vote is because as the "Leader Of The Free World" must "Appear" to have the consent of the majority. 51%
> ...


The President has always had over 50% of the votes, that's how he becomes president.
The popular vote is a meaningless number because each state has different voting laws, which is why they have the Electoral college.
You're the legitimate "President" if you win in accordance with the rules.

FWIW, the PM of Canada of the UK almost always has less than 50% of the popular vote


Just a question, what if a state decides that each vote in their state will be reported as 10 votes, or they let each citizen vote 10 times?


----------



## potato69 (Mar 21, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> The President has always had over 50% of the votes, that's how he becomes president.
> The popular vote is a meaningless number because each state has different voting laws, which is why they have the Electoral college.
> You're the legitimate "President" if you win in accordance with the rules.
> 
> ...


That is not why the electoral college exists.









The Electoral College’s Racist Origins


More than two centuries after it was designed to empower southern white voters, the system continues to do just that.




www.theatlantic.com


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

I do not know the answer to your question about 10 vote values.
Yes, I know presidents get 50 percent of vote and that is why they beg to get the vote. Normally, all they really need is 51% and they can declare legitimacy on the world stage.
But if you intend to implement Martial Law, I would think that a leader would want 60 percent and thus claim he has a mandate to introduce martial law.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

potato69 said:


> That is not why the electoral college exists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually it is.

It's to ensure each state gets appropriate representation irrespective of the number of votes cast within that state, or the voting laws in each state.

Did you even read your reference article?


----------



## potato69 (Mar 21, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> Actually it is.
> 
> It's to ensure each state gets appropriate representation irrespective of the number of votes cast within that state, or the voting laws in each state.
> 
> Did you even read your reference article?


And what are states made up of?? Oh right, people.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

potato69 said:


> And what are states made up of?? Oh right, people.


Lets take an example, a state has 1 Million people, 5k people vote. That gets treated like 1 Million people worth of votes at the electoral college.
Another state has 1 Million people, 500k people vote, that gets treated like 1 Million peoples worth of votes.

That's the point of the EC.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> I agree, Biden has a bad platform and a twisted evil vision for the future, and is supported (somewhat) by extremists who want to destroy modern civilization.


It's comments like this that reveal that MrMatt is actually a closet (right-wing) extremist. And he has been since he first showed up here.

He interprets liberal democracy (the foundation of the modern western world) as something evil and destructive. Therefore, he celebrates people who are trying to dismantle liberal values.

Beware of people like MrMatt. These are people who don't respect the modern western world. MrMatt is also a gun enthusiast who celebrates and sympathizes with American anti-government militias and armed gangs.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Sorry James, I believe in Liberal democracy.
Don't you think that it's odd that classical Liberals are all being branded as right wing?









Liberal democracy - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org









Classical liberalism - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





The Antifa and the far left are the ones fighting against Liberal values. pretty much everyone else is fighting to preserve them. James, when your side is fighting for racial segregation, you know you're on the wrong side.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Corruption should be investigated, but what the Conservatives are doing in Canada is conducting a huge witch hunt.

They have no evidence of corruption and are hoping to find something to pin on the government if they dig around long enough.

Corruption isn't the same as making mistakes, errors in judgement or poor policy decisions. Corruption involves the criminal intent of those involved.

The demand for an enormous amount of documents and information is a problem for the government to provide during a pandemic.

The Conservatives appear somewhat oblivious to what is going on around them. Maybe they just don't accept the pandemic is a problem.

Ontario's Doug Ford is coming under fire from Conservatives for locking down again, while Alberta's Jason Kenney vows to remain open.

The Conservatives should wait until the pandemic is over and then a bi-partisan committee can explore all the pandemic spending.



https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1811233859560


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

MrMatt said:


> But when you look at what Biden and his supporters want to do... Trump is definately the lesser evil.


Maybe in your world. Biden is less than ideal but the fact that Americans are looking at him as the next POTUS confirms that the average american has enough of agent orange. In other words, trump is losing to himself.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

MrMatt said:


> Implementing systematic racism at the federal level, discriminatory law enforcement, massive taxation and wealth redistribution, significant increase in poverty traps.


You seem to be very good at defining conservative values. 
None of the above reflects any center or left-of-center agendas.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

fstamand said:


> You seem to be very good at defining conservative values.
> None of the above reflects any center or left-of-center agendas.


Sorry, these are clearly left leaning positions.
Prop 16 in California

A *"yes"* vote supports this constitutional amendment to repeal Proposition 209 (1996), which stated that the government and public institutions cannot discriminate against or grant preferential treatment to persons on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in public employment, public education, and public contracting.





__





California Proposition 16, Repeal Proposition 209 Affirmative Action Amendment (2020)


Ballotpedia: The Encyclopedia of American Politics




ballotpedia.org





If you can't even see what they're overtly doing, you've got a problem.
There is no hidden conspiracy, they're right out in the open.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

james4beach said:


> It's comments like this that reveal that MrMatt is actually a closet (right-wing) extremist. And he has been since he first showed up here.
> 
> He interprets liberal democracy (the foundation of the modern western world) as something evil and destructive. Therefore, he celebrates people who are trying to dismantle liberal values.
> 
> Beware of people like MrMatt. These are people who don't respect the modern western world. MrMatt is also a gun enthusiast who celebrates and sympathizes with American anti-government militias and armed gangs.


He seems to have the systems mixed up LOL


MrMatt:

Socialism is all about sharing wealth, racism/sexism/homophobia is not an issue in left wing communities, because everyone is equal. Law enforcement is less required because free social programs are there to solve issues before it degenerates. It's impossible for a right winger to understand that because a) it costs money b) it doesn't serve them until it's required.

I think it's time for you to brush up on what left side values are.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

It is my opinion that there will always be corruption where there is power, right or left. Harper wasn't the cleanest leader huh! How many scandals were there.

Today's "Liberals" are (in my opinion) conservative-light.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

fstamand said:


> He seems to have the systems mixed up LOL
> 
> 
> MrMatt:
> ...


"Sharing" at the point of a gun isn't sharing, it's theft.

Yeah, all of Hollywood was okay with Weinstein and his casting couch, but "sexism is not an issue".

Jacob Blake was a violent armed criminal trying to abduct a car full of children... yeah "social programs" would have solved that.


Of course, being a classical Liberal, a believer in Liberal democracy, somehow makes me a "right winger".
Such is the world we live in today.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

MrMatt said:


> "Sharing" at the point of a gun isn't sharing, it's theft.
> 
> Yeah, all of Hollywood was okay with Weinstein and his casting couch, but "sexism is not an issue".
> 
> Jacob Blake was a violent armed criminal trying to abduct a car full of children... yeah "social programs" would have solved that.


There's always exceptions. That's where social programs can help. but "nooooooo not with my taxes huh!". 
Gun point? It happens left or right. It shows that society has deteriorated to a point where people have no choice. Why is that? Capitalism is great for the rich white guys, not so much for today's average joe.



MrMatt said:


> Of course, being a classical Liberal, a believer in Liberal democracy, somehow makes me a "right winger".
> Such is the world we live in today.


???? I'm sorry you're not make any sense. I'm out for now, you should go polish your gun in case socialists come after you!


----------



## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

fstamand said:


> He seems to have the systems mixed up LOL
> 
> 
> MrMatt:
> ...


You have it backwards actually. Socialist govts in fact take away individual rights and freedoms and make everyone subservient to the state. Think Cuba, Venzuela. China and Russia who have the worst human rights records on teh planet. China and Russia starved and killed ~ 80M between them. They don't even allow religion in some left wing countries. That is how you should view the real outcomes of backward 19th century socialist ideology.

You are just reading from some outdated 19th century utopian textbook perhaps. Reality is quite different.

Even here dictator Trudeau doesn't tolerate individual beliefs and everyone must hold those of the central party. He has hijacked parliament, called elections to divert RCMP scrutiny, expelled party members speaking truth to power and blocked committees looking into his corruption. Tells you all you need to know about the modern left wing corrupt ruling class.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

fstamand said:


> There's always exceptions. That's where social programs can help. but "nooooooo not with my taxes huh!".
> Gun point? It happens left or right. It shows that society has deteriorated to a point where people have no choice. Why is that? Capitalism is great for the rich white guys, not so much for today's average joe.
> 
> 
> ???? I'm sorry you're not make any sense. I'm out for now, you should go polish your gun in case socialists come after you!


The best social program is a job. Go do something useful and make something of yourself.

The socialists don't scare me, they aren't coming for anyone.
They are only socialist because they're too lazy to actually do the work themselves.
Ever wonder why "socialist revolutions" are always "won" by despotic dictators?


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)




----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Jimmy said:


> Even here dictator Trudeau doesn't tolerate individual beliefs and everyone must hold those of the central party. He has hijacked parliament, called elections to divert RCMP scrutiny, expelled party members speaking truth to power and blocked committees looking into his corruption. Tells you all you need to know about the modern left wing corrupt ruling class.


Not to mention that he lost the popular vote to the Conservatives and reneged on the promise to implement more representative government.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Eder said:


> View attachment 20763


Exactly true, except they left out the part where those of us that do work hard and keep only half, we're told by the socialists that we aren't paying our "fair share".

ltr


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

fstamand said:


> It is my opinion that there will always be corruption where there is power, right or left. Harper wasn't the cleanest leader huh! How many scandals were there.


Harper was very corrupt.

Harper was in the pocket of the oil & gas industry. The Conservatives were, and continue to be, very crooked and corrupt... basically letting oil companies write their legislation for them. Not to mention all the other bribes their accept from large corporate donors.


----------



## potato69 (Mar 21, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> Lets take an example, a state has 1 Million people, 5k people vote. That gets treated like 1 Million people worth of votes at the electoral college.
> Another state has 1 Million people, 500k people vote, that gets treated like 1 Million peoples worth of votes.
> 
> That's the point of the EC.


Abolishing the electoral college has large majority support in the US. Which isn't really surprising because it de-values a lot of people's votes. I think the largest voting power spread is something like 16:1 when comparing something like California and utah.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Jimmy said:


> You have it backwards actually. Socialist govts in fact take away individual rights and freedoms and make everyone subservient to the state. Think Cuba, Venzuela. China and Russia who have the worst human rights records on teh planet. China and Russia starved and killed ~ 80M between them. They don't even allow religion in some left wing countries. That is how you should view the real outcomes of backward 19th century socialist ideology.
> 
> You are just reading from some outdated 19th century utopian textbook perhaps. Reality is quite different.
> 
> Even here dictator Trudeau doesn't tolerate individual beliefs and everyone must hold those of the central party. He has hijacked parliament, called elections to divert RCMP scrutiny, expelled party members speaking truth to power and blocked committees looking into his corruption. Tells you all you need to know about the modern left wing corrupt ruling class.


You're entitled to your opinion but your brainwash cycles have spun a few times too many. You still have lots to learn young jedi!


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

potato69 said:


> Abolishing the electoral college has large majority support in the US. Which isn't really surprising because it de-values a lot of people's votes. I think the largest voting power spread is something like 16:1 when comparing something like California and utah.
> View attachment 20764


Well, looking at the [email protected]$#@hole that California has become, it's a good thing they're not setting national policy.
Also I'm not sure that those beige states were the slave states anyway.

Remember, the US senate was created to ensure each State had equal representation.
Congress was to represent population.

The two legislative bodies have different roles, if this was a US forum, I'd say civics failed you.
This is fundamental stuff.

To be fair most people are completely ignorant on politics anyway. At least here people understand some of the terms.
I'd rather debate details, than the super basics.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

kcowan said:


> Not to mention that he lost the popular vote to the Conservatives and reneged on the promise to implement more representative government.


Remember the first rule of politics... get elected.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Average folks have always been better served by the Liberals. Canadians know who is the best for them.


----------



## potato69 (Mar 21, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> Well, looking at the [email protected]$#@hole that California has become, it's a good thing they're not setting national policy.
> Also I'm not sure that those beige states were the slave states anyway.
> 
> Remember, the US senate was created to ensure each State had equal representation.
> ...


I'm not really into debating with you because you're just out to debate a point not really go anywhere.

I will just say that the electoral college has outlived its purpose. As things change: population density and distribution, wealth, the world in general our democracy needs to evolve as well to ensure fairness. By 2040, an estimated 40% of the American population will live in five states. In the Senate, that means roughly half of the population will be represented by 16 senators; the other half by 84. That obviously isn't even close to what can be interpreted as fair. That 40% will not allow such unfairness to stand. I would suggest that we correct these points of unfairness in a thoughtful way so the whole system isn't just blown up.









Pack the Union: A Proposal to Admit New States for the Purpose of Amending the Constitution to Ensure Equal Representation







harvardlawreview.org


----------



## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

fstamand said:


> You're entitled to your opinion but your brainwash cycles have spun a few times too many. You still have lots to learn young jedi!


Sorry to startle you w facts. The world is moving away from socialism but there are still some cultists and ivory tower theorists who wont let go lol.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Jimmy said:


> Sorry to startle you w facts. The world is moving away from socialism but there are still some cultists and ivory tower theorists who wont let go lol.


The world has moved on to Bailouts rather than socialism.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

potato69 said:


> I'm not really into debating with you because you're just out to debate a point not really go anywhere.
> 
> I will just say that the electoral college has outlived its purpose. As things change: population density and distribution, wealth, the world in general our democracy needs to evolve as well to ensure fairness. By 2040, an estimated 40% of the American population will live in five states. In the Senate, that means roughly half of the population will be represented by 16 senators; the other half by 84. That obviously isn't even close to what can be interpreted as fair. That 40% will not allow such unfairness to stand. I would suggest that we correct these points of unfairness in a thoughtful way so the whole system isn't just blown up.
> 
> ...


The states are equal, so each state gets 2 representatives at the senate.
Just like each country gets 1 seat at the UN.

If that 40% think it is so bad, they should renegotiate the deal.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Yea.....Trillions in bailouts and government supports to prop up a capitalist model that is failing......but don't ever call it "socialism".


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Well, looking at the [email protected]$#@hole that California has become, it's a good thing they're not setting national policy.
> Also I'm not sure that those beige states were the slave states anyway.
> 
> Remember, the US senate was created to ensure each State had equal representation.
> ...


California is such a shithole it is the engine of growth and innovation keeping the US afloat.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> California is such a shithole it is the engine of growth and innovation keeping the US afloat.


Yes, the tech companies and Hollywood are a huge boost.
But they're 8 or 9th in terms of per capita GDP.
They also have an awesome climate.

But their policies are failing, and people are leaving now, it's only a matter of time before the state collapses.
They have a >$50B deficit, with people fleeing, it's not going to get better.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

California has a lot of problems, to be sure. But calling it a shithole is just laughable.


----------



## potato69 (Mar 21, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> Yes, the tech companies and Hollywood are a huge boost.
> But they're 8 or 9th in terms of per capita GDP.
> They also have an awesome climate.
> 
> ...


I lived in SoCal for a few years. I loved it. Wish I didn't have to come back to Canada to be honest. Fortunately I'm in the West so that makes it bearable. California is awesome. 50B in deficit? I don't even know if that's correct but compare that to ours. yeash.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> California has a lot of problems, to be sure. But calling it a shithole is just laughable.


Sorry.
It's not really a hole, it's just covered in it.








Mapping San Francisco's Human Waste Challenge - 132,562 Cases Reported In The Public Way Since 2008


New mayor, London Breed, won election by promising to clean things up. However, conditions are the same or worse. Last year, the number of reports spiked to an all-time high at 28,084. In first quarter 2019, the pace continued with 6,676 instances of human waste in the public way.




www.forbes.com


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Conservatives get their wish and will spend the rest of the pandemic rooting around in dusty boxes from the government attic.

Give them some jumbo boxes of crayons and it might keep them busy and out of Trudeau's way for awhile.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Sorry.
> It's not really a hole, it's just covered in it.
> 
> 
> ...


The reason why this is a problem is because California and SF is such a desirable place to live that housing prices are exceptionally high making affordability a challenge. Like I said, California has lots of problems, but many of them are symptoms of its success. It's not exactly Missouri or Mississippi.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> The reason why this is a problem is because California and SF is such a desirable place to live that housing prices are exceptionally high making affordability a challenge. Like I said, California has lots of problems, but many of them are symptoms of its success. It's not exactly Missouri or Mississippi.


I'm just saying that it is very poorly managed by the government.


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> I'm just saying that it is very poorly managed by the government.


So you want them to provide social programs to help prevent people from becoming homeless? Seems like a good idea.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Spudd said:


> So you want them to provide social programs to help prevent people from becoming homeless? Seems like a good idea.


No, I want them to provide social programs that help the people, and discourage pooping on the sidewalk.

Homelessness is typically a symptom of a larger issue, spending vast sums of money on "the homeless", is often a waste of money.
Often well meaning by ordinary proponents, but largely ineffective, which is something the poverty industry won't tell you.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I'm just saying that it is very poorly managed by the government.


I believe the republican solution is to buy one-way bus tickets. Only works when the destination is desirable (tends to be Dem-run areas, handily enough).


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Jared Kushner echoed the sentiment from some here on CMF. He says black people's problems are self created by their own lack of ambition.

Conservatives prefer to dispense smug lectures rather than genuine assistance. They don't understand what "feed the body and then feed the soul" means.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I believe the republican solution is to buy one-way bus tickets. Only works when the destination is desirable (tends to be Dem-run areas, handily enough).


Well I'd like to provide appropriate mental health care, and substance abuse support, along with assistance programs to get (back) on your feet.

I never said one way bus tickets is a solution, but encouraging or permitting inappropriate anti-social behaviour isn't a solution either.


----------

