# Home Insurance



## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

Our house insurance was up for renewal and I decided to shop it around and was surprised at the varied quotes received. Here they are:
$681.00
$1,506,00
$1,666.00
$784.00
$1,519.00

Our home is in Kelowna and the coverages quoted on were all similar. We have a nice updated 35 yr old home (2000 sq ft rancher with w/o 70% finished bsmt) on .70 acre view lot. Total sq footage is just over 4000 sq ft with 3 decks and attached double garage. We have had no claims since purchasing the home 18 yrs ago and I don't understand the reason for the large variances.Crazy.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

It all depends on the exposure of the mother company. If they had coverage of fort McMurray, for example, they had a lot of payouts and their profits have suffered. Similarly the Calgary floods from the year before and the fires in BC. 

If they didn’t have that exposure, they can afford lower rates. 

It pays to shop around, I saved over $2000 just on car insurance this year just by making a phone call (the drawbacks of having young drivers).


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

frase, I can one-up your variance story. 

More than a decade ago, we built a log house off-grid and expected to pay through the nose for house insurance. We had to report that the nearest fire fire hydrant was more than 20 miles distant and the nearest firehall about the same and, then, the fire truck would have to come by barge. 

So, I started out paying about $3,200 a year. I just bit the bullet as the premium went up a couple of hundred bucks or so every year. A few years ago, when it reached $5,400, I gave serious consideration to self-insuring. Before doing that, I decided to have a go at shopping around. Glad I did. I now pay about $2,200 a year. 

I think the long claims-free history helps, but it seems some insurers give that factor more weight than others. My present insurer said they put some store in my being able to prove that I have had at least one, and usually several more, properties insured continuously since 1976. My only claim in all that time was on a Vancouver rental duplex in 1980. The house had a single-car garage in the back lane and a concrete parking pad beside it. The car of the tenant who parked on the pad caught fire. One side of the garage got a bit singed. Really, just a coat of paint to fix it. The insurer (Wawanesa) arranged for the work to be done and paid out $500. Today, I would not make such a claim (even grossed up for inflation) and have it on my record. I'd pay any repair bill out of my own pocket.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have experienced similar differences in Calgary on both home and auto insurance.

Now we check our rates every two years or so OR if our policy increases at a rate significantly above inflation.

LAst time we switched both we realized an $800 savings. When Statefarm was sold, the successor firm not only increased the rates but they doubled the deductible. We walked.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

frase said:


> Our house insurance was up for renewal and I decided to shop it around and was surprised at the varied quotes received. Here they are:
> $681.00
> $1,506,00
> $1,666.00
> ...


My take would be there is something seriously wrong with the 2 low quotes for the size of home you are talking about. Care to disclose who the 2 low quotes are from? We are in a similar, but slightly smaller sized, walkout rancher home built in 2000 (but with an in-ground pool) in the same general urban area and our renewal this summer was just over $1300. We have not bothered to check out competitive quotes for the 6 years we have owned the home.


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> My take would be there is something seriously wrong with the 2 low quotes for the size of home you are talking about. Care to disclose who the 2 low quotes are from? We are in a similar, but slightly smaller sized, walkout rancher home built in 2000 (but with an in-ground pool) in the same general urban area and our renewal this summer was just over $1300. We have not bothered to check out competitive quotes for the 6 years we have owned the home.


PM sent


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

frase said:


> PM sent


Got it...thanks.


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

I can't comment on home insurance but for auto insurance I am with Johnson since 2009. Every year I get couple of quotes for the same coverage and not a single company can match the premium of Johnson so far.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

scorpion_ca said:


> I can't comment on home insurance but for auto insurance I am with Johnson since 2009. Every year I get couple of quotes for the same coverage and not a single company can match the premium of Johnson so far.


Who is the actual insurance company though? I think Johnson is just the agent.


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

Unifund Assurance.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

Is it possible to get JUST fire insurance coverage only, on your home.?

Prob. like most people, i pay my renewal each year ( seems to increase each year too!) Then poke it in a drawer for 12 months til the next renewal notice comes again. tear up the old policy & stick new one in the drawer. Repeat.
Never a claim in 40 years......
The only thing i worry about is da wife leaving a pot to boil over on the stove & catch fire to the house.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Why would you not cover for wind damage, water damage due to roof being torn off, etc? Fire is down the list on risks. Contents need the same coverage for the same reasons. What about liability if someone falls and becomes a paraplegic and sues for $2 million? There are a host of 'perils'.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Last year I read a study done on auto insurance in the UK.

There was a general feeling that existing customers paid higher premiums than new customers. The study, I believe by AA, found this to be true and placed the loyalty premium at 25-30 percent.

Their advice....shop at least once every two years or earlier if premiums in year two rise too much. Their conclusion ? The lower premiums that new customers pay are financed by existing, loyal customer who find it more convenient to renew than to shop. I suspect that this is true in Canada for both home and auto. Our premiums took a jump this year. Not certain if it because Alberta had the highest per capita home insurance claims due to weather or because the insurer wants to move us up their 'premium curve'. In any event at the end of year two next June we plan to shop the market to see what is out there. Why not?


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## Dilbert (Nov 20, 2016)

ian said:


> Last year I read a study done on auto insurance in the UK.
> 
> There was a general feeling that existing customers paid higher premiums than new customers. The study, I believe by AA, found this to be true and placed the loyalty premium at 25-30 percent.
> 
> Their advice....shop at least once every two years or earlier if premiums in year two rise too much. Their conclusion ? The lower premiums that new customers pay are financed by existing, loyal customer who find it more convenient to renew than to shop. I suspect that this is true in Canada for both home and auto. Our premiums took a jump this year. Not certain if it because Alberta had the highest per capita home insurance claims due to weather or because the insurer wants to move us up their 'premium curve'. In any event at the end of year two next June we plan to shop the market to see what is out there. Why not?


I have long suspected this kind of business strategy from the insurance industry as well, but it is difficult to prove, of course.
It’s a pain to have to shop every couple of years, but it seems to pay off.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Ironically, I’ve heard of many businesses which don’t carry insurance at all...when something goes wrong, and the lawyers come out suing everyone, they don’t bother to go after those without insurance, since they’d just declare bankruptcy, and go after those who do, even if they weren’t the cause.

Sad part is, those companies usually wind up paying because “it’s cheaper than going to trial”, even if they didn’t do anything. Pretty sad system.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

We just got our renewal for house insurance. Increase over last year is 26%! Been with them for >30 years - no claims. Nothing disastrous in this area that I'm aware of. Rural Ontario. Will definitely be shopping


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Our SIL is in the construction industry in Ft. Mac. Has been for ten years or so.

Folks who sustained damage during the fire saw the good and the bad insurance performers. Among the very best, according to the experience of friends and through his businesses, was TD Meloche. Lot of unhappy AMA and Intact home insurance policy holders apparently.this is strictly heresay of course.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

jargey3000 said:


> Prob. like most people, i pay my renewal each year ( seems to increase each year too!)


It's called inflation! Building materials, Labour costs, etc. This explains why premiums seem to creep up each and every year. I expect my policy to be a little higher. Most companies seem to use 3-5% as an inflation target. At least for those policies that have replacement and guaranteed replacement cost. It does however not explain why some some policies will see a 20-30+% increase. These types of increases could be do to claims, catastrophic events, charging for coverages that use to be free, greed! etc.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

I’m about $2200 (with tax) a year. $2million liability. $25,000 sewer back up protection. Waterfront property in rural Ontario. Raised 1.5 bungalow with walk out basement. Approx 2000-2200 sq ft. Seems excessive. I have my cars/bike with the same company as well as affinity discount (alumni). 

does it seem fair?


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> I’m about $2200 (with tax) a year. $2million liability. $25,000 sewer back up protection. Waterfront property in rural Ontario. Raised 1.5 bungalow with walk out basement. Approx 2000-2200 sq ft. Seems excessive. I have my cars/bike with the same company as well as affinity discount (alumni).
> 
> does it seem fair?


Seems quite high. What is the limit you have on the building - 600-750k?

So many factors - do you max out all the available discounts - mortgage free, alarm system, credit consent, etc. Claims history, any add one's (boats, schedule jewellery, etc).

With an alumni discount you'd think it would be closer to 1300-1500 plus tax. Maybe even a lot lower.

Rural hurts you a little (no hydrants) but if you're close to an accredited fire station you'd still be considered semi protected.

No harm in shopping around. Let us know what you get for pricing. Bit of a pain because you have to shop everything but the price seems quite high so it may be time well spent.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Money172375 said:


> I’m about $2200 (with tax) a year. $2million liability. $25,000 sewer back up protection. Waterfront property in rural Ontario. Raised 1.5 bungalow with walk out basement. Approx 2000-2200 sq ft. Seems excessive. I have my cars/bike with the same company as well as affinity discount (alumni).
> 
> does it seem fair?


Ours is a 3,000 square foot waterfront home in rural BC. Quotes this year ranged from just under $2,000 to just over $8,000. Quite a range. That's with about $800,000 coverage to replace the main building and $2 million liability, with $25,000 deductible. We asked for $100,000 deductible, but no bites.

Our place in LA has remained for years in the range of $1,700 to $2,200 US. Some years up, some years down. That's with present coverage of about $925,000 US on the house and $2.5 million US liability. Happy enough with our insurer there (Allstate) that we have never shopped around in almost 25 years.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Synergy said:


> Seems quite high. What is the limit you have on the building - 600-750k?
> 
> So many factors - do you max out all the available discounts - mortgage free, alarm system, credit consent, etc. Claims history, any add one's (boats, schedule jewellery, etc).
> 
> ...


mortgage free. Claims free. This price is without the pwc. Actual policy is 2600. No alarm. Hydrant is one house away. Fire station is about 10k away. No jewellery. I don’t think my policy shows the building. It’s a “$2 million solution” which I believe covers clean-up, rebuild and contents? The $2 liability is a separate line item. Perhaps it’s the waterfront?

deductible is $2000.

as per the below image, the policy is $2017. An additional $217 for $2 million liability. So that $2234 without tax!

can you cancel and switch at any time Or only renewal?


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> mortgage free. Claims free. This price is without the pwc. Actual policy is 2600. No alarm. Hydrant is one house away. Fire station is about 10k away. No jewellery. I don’t think my policy shows the building. It’s a “$2 million solution” which I believe covers clean-up, rebuild and contents? The $2 liability is a separate line item. Perhaps it’s the waterfront?
> 
> deductible is $2000.
> 
> ...


We have something similar through CAA Insurance. They just gave us a 10% Covid discount off both home and car insurance!
Our home is on waterfront in semi-rural area. Similar hydrant/fire station distances. Coverage for rebuilding home and garage is $600k, plus $400k for personal property. Total coverage amounts to $1,160,000. House is about 2300 sq.ft. Garage another 700sq.ft. $2million liability.

Premium, with $2000 deductible, is $755.

One big difference, is that we have a septic system and no basement, so no sewer back-up coverage needed. Another may be the $2million solution - maybe it is more in their favour than yours 

We were at one time with TD Insurance (affinity) - They had bumped up our insurance. Then when I complained, they had an appraiser re-appraise our home. The appraiser got it all wrong - used wrong build date and that increased rather than reduced the premium. TD would not change his findings. We walked! We then went with State Farm, but walked again when they sold to Desjardin.

Thank goodness - we now have a good local CAA agent who is very helpful and our insurance rates are fair for both home and cars.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> I’m about $2200 (with tax) a year. $2million liability. $25,000 sewer back up protection. Waterfront property in rural Ontario. Raised 1.5 bungalow with walk out basement. Approx 2000-2200 sq ft. Seems excessive. I have my cars/bike with the same company as well as affinity discount (alumni).
> 
> does it seem fair?


I'm in Ontario with a $2 million policy, $1 million liability., TD Insurance offers it as a standard package.
I'm not waterfront but it's only $937/yr, but that's through a group rate.

Not sure how much rural and waterfront ads, but even then you're at less than $200/month


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> I'm in Ontario with a $2 million policy, $1 million liability., TD Insurance offers it as a standard package.
> I'm not waterfront but it's only $937/yr, but that's through a group rate.
> 
> Not sure how much rural and waterfront ads, but even then you're at less than $200/month


Thanks. Do you know if you have sewer backup. That alone cost me almost $700.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> Thanks. Do you know if you have sewer backup. That alone cost me almost $700.


Yes
I am insured against 
"""
Water originating from escape, overflow or backing up of:
french drains or weeping tile
sewer connections
sewers
storm drains
septic tanks
ditches
sumps, retention tanks or holding ponds

Ground or surface freshwater that suddenly and accidentally seeps into the building...

Water originating from the rising or overflow of any stream or body of freshwater, whether natural or man made or from dam breaks.
""

And other things, but yeah, I'm covered


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> Yes
> I am insured against
> """
> Water originating from escape, overflow or backing up of:
> ...


my current provider wouldn’t even sell me overland flooding.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> my current provider wouldn’t even sell me overland flooding.


See if you can get group insurance through something, most professional organizations and colleges/universities have a program.
If not that, I'd get an independent broker, an experienced professional IMO can save you a lot of trouble.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> See if you can get group insurance through something, most professional organizations and colleges/universities have a program.
> If not that, I'd get an independent broker, an experienced professional IMO can save you a lot of trouble.


That‘s what’s bothering me. My latest policy has a staff discount attached. Even though I’ve left the company, I could fall back on to a University of Toronto Alumni rate. With my staff rate, mortgage free, claims free, multi-line discounts, it feels expensive.

I’m going to try some of the other big insurers and 2 small, local Brokers in town.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Third year with our home insurer. Premium went up about six points last year, the current renewal that came yesterday had a 13 percent increase. We have six weeks to shop, compare, and make a decision. I read an article some time ago that seemed to indicate that insurers start to hike little by little after year 2 or 3 because people tend not to shop.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

ian said:


> Third year with our home insurer. Premium went up about six points last year, the current renewal that came yesterday had a 13 percent increase. We have six weeks to shop, compare, and make a decision. I read an article some time ago that seemed to indicate that insurers start to hike little by little after year 2 or 3 because people tend not to shop.


can you switch providers mid-term or only at renewal. My friends are checking their policies. One buddy is paying $3600 for a home in The GTA.


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## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

I stand to be corrected, but I believe you can cancel insurance at any time and get rebated for the cancelled portion of the policy. (There may be an admin fee.)
We just completed renovations, during which we had extra insurance. We were just weeks from renewal when we dropped the extra coverage. Got a check for $35 from the insure co for those weeks.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> mortgage free. Claims free. This price is without the pwc. Actual policy is 2600. No alarm. Hydrant is one house away. Fire station is about 10k away. No jewellery. I don’t think my policy shows the building. It’s a “$2 million solution” which I believe covers clean-up, rebuild and contents? The $2 liability is a separate line item. Perhaps it’s the waterfront?
> 
> deductible is $2000.
> 
> ...


$700 for a $25,000 limit on sewer backup. THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM! Highway robbery. Are you on septic or municipal sewer? That rate is ridiculous unless you're in an extremely high risk area.

$2 million solution is a single limit feature. The replacement cost number used for calculating the premium is hidden in the background. Without that number you'll never know whether the premium is fair or not. You have to ask your company rep.

Yes you can cancel anytime. You just have to pay an admin fee. The fee becomes less the closer you get to the expiry. Your rep can get you the fee to cancel on a particular date. 

If sewer backup was $75 per year then your current policy would be closer to reasonable. You should be able to do better. Still seems high for a group rate.

Could be a territory issue. Get a quote for the same house with the same company with a completely different postal code. And/or talk to your neighbors with similar sized house, similar age group, etc.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Synergy said:


> $700 for a $25,000 limit on sewer backup. THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM! Highway robbery. Are you on septic or municipal sewer? That rate is ridiculous unless you're in an extremely high risk area.
> 
> $2 million solution is a single limit feature. The replacement cost number used for calculating the premium is hidden in the background. Without that number you'll never know whether the premium is fair or not. You have to ask your company rep.
> 
> ...


thanks. Unique community. Waterfront. On municipal water and waste. Waste is directed to a spray field a couple of kilometres away. I assume it’s pumped there. I believe some neighbours in the area had sewer backups before we moved in.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> thanks. Unique community. Waterfront. On municipal water and waste. Waste is directed to a spray field a couple of kilometres away. I assume it’s pumped there. I believe some neighbours in the area had sewer backups before we moved in.
> 
> 
> edit: we all have sump pumps that are very active. Runs multiple times per day. Can run every hour during wet springs.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

So some neighbours had flooding this month. One from a failed sump pump. The other from overland water. She apparently had overland coverage from CAA. She is not waterfront like me. I’ve got a slightly cheaper quote from CAA. Need to confirm if they will offer overland flooding to waterfront homes. I guess I need to look for 2 additional protections. Overflow from the lake. And surface water from heavy rains.

does anyone know of any other companies, beyond CAA, that offer overland flooding?
i wonder how much my TD car insurance might go up if I take my home policy elsewhere.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Got my home renewal. Up 17%. Started shopping around. I’ve only ever been with TD.

TD has what I consider a silly “all in one” “solution”. Based on my rebuild costs of about $750,000….they automatically assign a $3 million solution. This seems way more than I need. My premium is about $2700+ tax. $1600 base fee + $1,100 for total water coverage. We’re waterfront and have a very active sump pump.

I’m attaching a link to a recent article on water coverage. Overland coverage is relatively new in Canada and most Canadians don’t have it,









32% of Canadians unaware standard home insurance policies lack flood protection: Survey - BNN Bloomberg


Many Canadian homeowners are woefully unaware of how to protect their homes against water damage, a new survey has found, even as climate change super charges storms in Canada and is leading to a rising number of claims.




www.bnnbloomberg.ca





my first comparison shop brought me down to $1700.

major differences:
1. I’d lose seepage insurance, but retain overland flooding.
2. overland flooding coverage increases from $50,000 to $750,000 with the new company
3. instead of $3 million solution, I‘d get $750,000 rebuild coverage (guaranteed replacement value). + $600,000 belongings
4. deductible goes from $5,000 to $1,000


ill need to find out how much TD will increase my car premiums if I cancel the home policy.
car policy comes due in the spring.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> ….they automatically assign a $3 million solution. This seems way more than I need.


Below a certain threshold, I think the cost of paying out is relatively low. It's mostly admin & profit.
Also knowing that you have $3 million, you're more likely to just pay and ignore, which insurance companies LOVE. They get paid to do nothing.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

So I got a quote from a competitor which at first glance would save me $1000 year.

however, the new company can’t offer me a good rate for my PWC which is part of my existing home insurance. The difference is about $420

called Td to have a discussion about switching. They offered a measly 5% discount. Told me their loyalty division was shut down during COVID. Rep basically told me to switch. Additional consideration is that my car insurance atTD (which renews in the spring) will go up by 10% or $300 if I move my home policy to another firm.

so it appears my decision to switch will save me only about $300 a year. The home policy has a much lower deductible and a much higher water damage endorsement. Overall coverage drops though from about $3 million at TD, to about $1.6 miliion.


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## Dilbert (Nov 20, 2016)

I’ve found Costco extremely competitive for both house and car.


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