# Any advice for fighting a parking ticket in court?



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I have a court date tomorrow to contest a parking ticket. The ticket cites that I was within 3 meters of an alley intersection but I measured it at 3.15 meters with a tape measure. They have a picture of a laser range finder showing 1.7m but their picture makes it pretty clear that measurement is incorrect as there are more than two, 4 foot, sidewalk sections between my car and the end of the vertical curb where it starts to taper down for the alley.

I'm retired now so I am going to tilt at this windmill.

How do I address a peace officer in court? How many pics of tape measures and perspectives will they tolerate? I hope to show four pics.

I place my chance of success at 5%. I'm pretty cynical about them letting someone get away without contributing to their revenue stream but we will see.

Any advice?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

TomB16 said:


> I have a court date tomorrow to contest a parking ticket. The ticket cites that I was within 3 meters of an alley intersection but I measured it at 3.15 meters with a tape measure. They have a picture of a laser range finder showing 1.7m but their picture makes it pretty clear that measurement is incorrect as there are more than two, 4 foot, sidewalk sections between my car and the end of the vertical curb where it starts to taper down for the alley.
> 
> I'm retired now so I am going to tilt at this windmill.
> 
> ...


What if the peace officer fails to show up in court?


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

Sounds like an open and shut case. Charge them for your time and aggravation while you're at it.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I'm not looking for blood.

My goal is to be respectful while stating my case clearly and as objectively as possible.

I'd like to know how to address the lady (peace officer) hearing the case. Someone here must know?


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

Not blood, just money!

Just be nice.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

TomB16 said:


> I have a court date tomorrow to contest a parking ticket. The ticket cites that I was within 3 meters of an alley intersection but I measured it at 3.15 meters with a tape measure. They have a picture of a laser range finder showing 1.7m but their picture makes it pretty clear that measurement is incorrect as there are more than two, 4 foot, sidewalk sections between my car and the end of the vertical curb where it starts to taper down for the alley.
> 
> I'm retired now so I am going to tilt at this windmill.
> 
> ...


Your not tilting at windmills. You can win. 
Do show up. If the officer who gave you the ticket does show up, you will win. 
Bring your pictures, and measurements and point out that you where legally parked be prepared to explain how you measured. 
Are there any no-parking signs?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Probably not worth your time but good on you for challenging an injust fine. There should be some compensation for being ticketed in an egregiously wrong fashion, so that enforcement officers are properly incentivized to apply the law correctly.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Different province so I am not sure if it’s the same, m6 province can no longer fight tickets without a fee. I have sadly fought many traffic violations. Bring your pictures, 4 will be fine, it will depend on how ‘accurate’ your pictures are, be respectful and hope for the officer doesn’t show. They seem to show alot more these days. At the very least even if yo7 lose, you can ask for reduction out of pity stated you are a senior on fixed income.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Just be nice.
It all depends on who you get and how they are feeling that day. Try to connect with them quickly on a human/personal level.

I've been let off before with no evidence. I've also been beaten to hell with tons of evidence.

Hopefully they are in a good mood. Best of luck.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

ian said:


> What if the peace officer fails to show up in court?


I'm pretty sure the peace officer will be there, as they are officiating. I can't imagine the parking enforcement person will be there.

This may be difficult to comprehend but I don't want to get out of it because someone doesn't show. I want an opportunity to show my pics and measurements. Their pics clearly show a segmented sidewalk and I have measure the segments to be far more than the indicated distance so I plan to use their pics plus a pic of my tape measure.

Andrew is right. This is not a good use of time but I am in the mood to fight city hall.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

It may not be a good use of time, but if you state your reasoning clearly and show evidence, you have a good chance.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Synergy said:


> Sounds like an open and shut case. Charge them for your time and aggravation while you're at it.


Traffic court doesn't work like that.

The whole point is that you lose, either lose a little or lose a lot.

Even when they act pretty outrageous, you're not going to get compensation.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

afulldeck said:


> Your not tilting at windmills. You can win.
> Do show up. If the officer who gave you the ticket does show up, you will win.
> Bring your pictures, and measurements and point out that you where legally parked be prepared to explain how you measured.
> Are there any no-parking signs?


 ... totally agree with this. 

Just plead your case as you stated in original post. Chances are they'll let you off or worst, reduce the fine. I'm betting on zero fine for your time there. Good experience too - first timer? I'm surprised, lol!!!


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Also, I think most of your conversation may be with the prosecutor. I fought a ticket once and I remember that I had a short conversation with the prosecutor in his office. He agreed with me. It was one of those situations where I was guilty but it was not my fault, kind of deal. So he recommended a suspended sentence, which was a nice way of saying they brought the fine down to zero. When we went in front of the judge it took about 3 minutes for the prosecutor to tell the judge their new recommendation for punishment with the short explanation for it. The judge agreed, which they almost always do. Done. Saved $360.

Now in my case I pleaded guilty so there was no need to discuss the issue with the cop. In your case things may be a little different due to the not guilty plea.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

I've fought, & won, a couple. once, all it took was a little chat with the officer, just minutes before court. ticket was dismissed. just be concise & polite & make certain YOUR information is correct!

If what you say above is accurate, I'd say your chances of getting off are well above 5%

let us know how you make out


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

side note...
Years ago, while waiting at a red light I noticed 2 guys ( driver & passenger) drinking beer in the car in the next lane. they appeared to be pretty well on. when light changed I waited a sec til they went ahead, just to make a mental note of the model & licence no. (and to keep a safe distance between them & me).
I remember thinking...where's a cop, when you need one?...
there was another red light just up ahead. with 1 car already stopped at it.
I said to myself as i followed, "he's not even slowing down". sure enough he just tried to pulled around the stopped car & side-swiped, trying to make a left turn against the red light.
i pulled up, young girl driving was shaken up but ok. this was pre-cellphone days, so i gave her the vehicle info, told her to call police, & gave my info as a witness.
sometime later i got called to appear as witness in court ( jury trial, I think) we all show up & the case is postponed.
this happens a second time.
third time, it goes ahead. I get up & tells my story. buddy's lawyer tries to pick holes in my statement ( I even knew what brand they were drinking - Black Horse! And, no I dont remember PRECISELY what time I left my mother's house that night.....did YOU note what time YOU got in your car this morning ...jury chuckles!)
Finally it came down to da judge asking me for the vehicle information.
I told him I had it with me the FIRST TWO times I came in a waste of time, but I forgot it this morning.
It's home on a piece of paper on my bedroom dresser. Anybody home? Da wife, maybe...
Judge calls a recess, while i make the call.
Wife is home, finds info, give it to me over phone.
Back to court. I give the make & licence number. Case over - GUILTY! lol I felt like Lt. Columbo!

but, it also opened my eyes to how much time & money & everything else gets tangled up in our jusyice system...This was just ONE tiny example..of what must go on every day!....


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Hearing bumped to Tuesday, August 16. I will report back.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Perhaps you will get lucky with a peace officer who does not show and a beak that has had more than his share of personal parking tickets!


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

I think people are confusing police officer (cop) with peace officer (the justice presiding over the court), which I believe is actually called 'justice of the peace'. You address them as 'Your Honour'.
Look here for more etiquette.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

TomB16 said:


> I'm not looking for blood.
> 
> My goal is to be respectful while stating my case clearly and as objectively as possible.
> 
> I'd like to know how to address the lady (peace officer) hearing the case. Someone here must know?


I do not know what province you are talking about. Here in BC, judicial justices of the peace (JJPs) preside over traffic court. The correct form of address is "Your Worship". The form "Your Honour" is for Provincial Court Judges. In Supreme Court and Court of Appeal one must be really obsequious and use "My Lord" or "My Lady".


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Why are we still using terms from the feudal system in Canadian court @Mukhang pera

I thought we already separated church from state. If someone is Buddhist must they still swear on the Holy Bible to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Fun fact Quebecois pledge allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen (of England) to join the Canadian military. Very much still religious


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

m3s said:


> Why are we still using terms from the feudal system in Canadian court @Mukhang pera
> 
> I thought we already separated church from state. If someone is Buddhist must they still swear on the Holy Bible to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
> 
> Fun fact Quebecois pledge allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen (of England) to join the Canadian military. Very much still religious


I can't tell you why some of the old terms remain in use.

As for swearing on the Bible, in BC courts at least, one has the option to "affirm" instead of resorting to the Bible. It's essentially the same oath, but without holding or placing a hand on the Bible and minus the words "so help me God" at the end of the oath. It's essentially a promise to tell the truth.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Mukhang pera said:


> I can't tell you why some of the old terms remain in use.
> 
> As for swearing on the Bible, in BC courts at least, one has the option to "affirm" instead of resorting to the Bible. It's essentially the same oath, but without holding or placing a hand on the Bible and minus the words "so help me God" at the end of the oath. It's essentially a promise to tell the truth.


So help me God the judge isn't religious I guess then

How would you feel if the default was to swear on the Quran but there was a infidel opt out if you want so that we can say we are "fair" and unbiased court of course

Should it not just be the same for everyone


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

m3s,

No need to direct more questions to me about why courts in Canada today operate as they do. 

Just put me on your list of aging boomers to ignore. I have no appetite to engage with you in a protracted and inane exchange such as you and sags indulged in recently. I have better things to do with my time. That includes not getting my shirt in a twist about how oaths are administered in court, how to address court officials, etc. 

Since you have such contempt for older folks (maybe anyone over 50), I trust you have plans to die young. Can you imagine getting to age 65 or so and trying to ward off all the venomous calumnies being hurled at you by those coming up behind you?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Mukhang pera said:


> No need to direct more questions to me about why courts in Canada today operate as they do.


So there is no reason and we should be open to question it. That is if we are open to constructive criticism rather than getting defensive of religious tradition in the court system. This is probably something for people younger than me even to worry about

sags is a different beast. He just goes around in circles without reading or considering anything. Many have told me they left because of him specifically and many here have blocked him. He doesn't even consider or absorb that truth

Like I have said before most of language in culture is not literal and I think you understand that. The term boomer is no longer literal at least how it is used in popular culture today. This is certainly nothing to get twisted up about

The irony is that a generation who commonly thought nothing of using worse terms to describe every other race and group of people and even the term millennial the same way before anyone used boomer that way, are by FAR the most offended by such a term


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Interesting how this thread morphed from defending a simple parking ticket in traffic court (Iikely an informal hearing held in an ante room in the courthouse with only a JP present) to a trial with a Crown Attorney and judge or impaneled jury.

It makes me wonder what kind of situations some found themselves involved in, because it doesn't sound much like a bylaw infraction.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

sags said:


> Interesting how this thread morphed from defending a simple parking ticket in traffic court (Iikely an informal hearing held in an ante room in the courthouse with only a JP present) to a trial with a Crown Attorney and judge or impaneled jury.
> ...


Have I missed something? Did anyone say there would be a Crown, a judge, or a jury?

Yes, we got into some discussion about how to address court officials and such, but I did not see any suggestion that the matter was likely to become a litigation extravaganza. 

The last time I was in traffic court was in Vancouver. It was held in a building not far from the Provincial Court building at 222 Main St. Maybe it was 195 Alexander St., not sure. Present were a JJP, the cop who wrote the ticket acting as prosecutor and the person charged. I appeared as counsel for that person, acting _pro bono_, as a friend. We successfully defended the ticket, which saved her about $400. Not something one would pay a lawyer to do, since legal fees would well exceed that sum.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I'm sure this does not make sense to anyone else but I'm looking forward to speaking to this ticket.

I have graphics with exploded views showing measurements and a succinct narrative that I've gone through a few times and have down to 70 seconds. Actually, there isn't much to say other than to cite the bylaw and request she look at the pictures of my tape measure scaled identical to parking enforcement's pic of my car.

I think I just have to show that their measurement is out to lunch and not prove that I am parked legally. You know... the presumption of innocence. But, I have a pic of the car with a tape measure on the road showing a legal parking dimension. If things go badly, I will ask her to look at that pic.

I am into this for about 4 hours, if I include the measurements and graphics.

It will be interesting to see the response. I don't see how an honest person could disregard my measurements and pictures from parking enforcement themselves. It is stupid obvious I am parked legally. If they still charge me, it will be a really dark day for the rule of law.

We will see.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> I'm sure this does not make sense to anyone else but I'm looking forward to speaking to this ticket.
> 
> I have graphics with exploded views showing measurements and a succinct narrative that I've gone through a few times and have down to 70 seconds. Actually, there isn't much to say other than to cite the bylaw and request she look at the pictures of my tape measure scaled identical to parking enforcement's pic of my car.
> 
> ...


i am Just trying help manage your expectations, it really isn’t that exciting. Again based on my precovid experience but more tI es than the average person.

You will tell the first processing window that you would like to see the JoP and plead not guilty (you may have already done this on the first time before it was reschedule. I am not sure if you have to do this again For returnees)
You will see the JoP, most likely in a little office that is slightly larger than a closet where they are on the other side of the plexiglass. They will say the look over the ticket, ask what you like- options may include a reduction in $, points (n/a for multinova or parking) time to pay, or pleading not guilty. You say not guilty, they ask you To explain why. You show them your pictures, and if its supportive they will waive it. You may get 10 -15 min max. 

i have won parking tickets, speeding tickets and a weird on where the officier gave my coworker a ticket for jay walking, even though she was directed to walk there by the fire dept directing traffic. 

i have had many reductions for me just being stupid, I owed up, told them why, and recognized my mistake but asked for less of a fine or reductions of points if an option. Once I had the JoP let me off when I was asking for a reduction of points because I told him the really awful weird day I had which lead to me off to a speeding ticket that I had 9leaded guilty too, but he was so shocked to hear my reason (all true) he decided to let me off because he felt bad that so many bad things had happened at that moment leading to being caught. My other time, i Told them what was going on, which was so comical to him (and true) once he was able t9 stop crying from laughing so hard and ask if i could tell the other JoP, and when she stopped laughing, the6 jus5 cancelled the ticket. 

Every experience I have had with traffic court has been more than fair., but Pretty non eventful.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> Interesting how this thread morphed from defending a simple parking ticket in traffic court (Iikely an informal hearing held in an ante room in the courthouse with only a JP present) to a trial with a Crown Attorney and judge or impaneled jury.
> 
> It makes me wonder what kind of situations some found themselves involved in, because it doesn't sound much like a bylaw infraction.


i have been in the office man6 times, and in a courthouse (I was on there for the prosecutors side all times - just so it’s clear I wasn’t doing anything wrong) several times, almost all times as a witness, but no jury yet, I still want an opportuni to serve jury duty.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

TomB16 said:


> You will see the JoP, most likely in a little office that is slightly larger than a closet where they are on the other side of the plexiglass. They will say the look over the ticket, ask what you like- options may include a reduction in $, points (n/a for multinova or parking) time to pay, or pleading not guilty. You say not guilty, they ask you To explain why. You show them your pictures, and if its supportive they will waive it. You may get 10 -15 min max.


Yeah, this is closer to my one experience in _"taking a ticket to court". _

It was, as you say, a small closet sized room with ticket holders sitting in chairs in the hall waiting their turn. 

The Justice was sitting in the tiny room on a high stool on the other side of a counter. I had gotten a ridiculous ticket on my bicycle where I was legally guilty, so I decided to try for a reduction of the expensive penalty.

I made my pitch, and the bored looking Justice shook his head and told me to go away. There was no expectation of the police officer who gave the ticket being required to be there.

Conveniently for those who had to pay, there was a pay wicket directly on the other side of the hall.

I had visions of a Perry Mason court room and ended up in a closet. Not very exciting, but I saved a bunch of money. 

ltr


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

sags said:


> Interesting how this thread morphed from defending a simple parking ticket in traffic court


yes, quite rare for a CMF thread to morph off-topic....😈


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, this is closer to my one experience in _"taking a ticket to court". _
> 
> It was, as you say, a small closet sized room with ticket holders sitting in chairs in the hall waiting their turn.
> 
> I had visions of a Perry Mason court room and ended up in a closet. Not very exciting


What if you mess up the proper form of address called the guard "Sir" instead of "Your Highness" and then get directed to the closet for lower class heathens. Or maybe you didn't follow the proper dress protocol. No bias in Canadian court system


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

m3s said:


> What if you mess up the proper form of address called the guard "Sir" instead of "Your Highness" and then get directed to the closet for lower class heathens. Or maybe you didn't follow the proper dress protocol. No bias in Canadian court system


we are talking about traffic infractions and parking is the lowest of them all. The JoP I have all dealt with, have been all fair and fine. It’s ‘Your Worship’ not highness btw but sir or ma’am I am sure is fine. i would say I haven’t always addressed them that way. just be respectful. I did hear one JoP asking a person to stop addressing him as ‘dude’. 

No dress code. I can assure you if you want a little entertainment, I was always surprised at what people wear to the courthouse. I have been formal (coming from work) to super casual (with my baby in tow). 
for court, I have been in more formal clothing, and address the judge as ‘your honor. i don’t know why this is such a big deal.


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

m3s said:


> What if you mess up the proper form of address called the guard "Sir" instead of "Your Highness" and then get directed to the closet for lower class heathens. Or maybe you didn't follow the proper dress protocol. No bias in Canadian court system





TomB16 said:


> I have a court date tomorrow to contest a parking ticket. The ticket cites that I was within 3 meters of an alley intersection but I measured it at 3.15 meters with a tape measure. They have a picture of a laser range finder showing 1.7m but their picture makes it pretty clear that measurement is incorrect as there are more than two, 4 foot, sidewalk sections between my car and the end of the vertical curb where it starts to taper down for the alley.
> 
> I'm retired now so I am going to tilt at this windmill.
> 
> ...


Certainly not my area of expertise but could the official who gave you the ticket not argue that your evidence and pics were not the case when the ticket was issued? In other words, the official suggests that it is possible the vehicle was moved back a bit after the ticket?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Our son got a parking ticket and the bylaw officer took pictures of his vehicle in the "no parking" spot.

Also, it used to be that if you paid the parking fine early it was lower than if you went to traffic court. I don't know if it is still that way.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> we are talking about traffic infractions and parking is the lowest of them all. The JoP I have all dealt with, have been all fair and fine. It’s ‘Your Worship’ not highness btw but sir or ma’am I am sure is fine. i would say I haven’t always addressed them that way. just be respectful. *I did hear one JoP asking a person to stop addressing him as ‘dude’.*
> 
> No dress code. I can assure you if you want a little entertainment, I was always surprised at what people wear to the courthouse. I have been formal (coming from work) to super casual (with my baby in tow).
> for court, I have been in more formal clothing, and address the judge as ‘your honor. i don’t know why this is such a big deal.


 ...are you serious with the bolded part? Like the violators addressing the JoP as "dude" ... I guess only either certain segments (albeit a tiny minority) of the population gets away with this and/or that JoP's wife gets to wear the pants at home ... lol.


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

Mukhang pera said:


> I do not know what province you are talking about. Here in BC, judicial justices of the peace (JJPs) preside over traffic court. *The correct form of address is "Your Worship"*. The form "Your Honour" is for Provincial Court Judges. In Supreme Court and Court of Appeal one must be really obsequious and use "My Lord" or "My Lady".


An Ontario Justice of the Peace also told me that Your Worship is the correct form of address.

It's a good thing His Honourship Judge Pigmeat Markham is no longer presidin'
Pigmeat Markham - Here Comes The Judge (Tonight Show 1968)



> Hear ye, hear ye
> This court is now in session
> His Honor, Judge Pigmeat Markham presidin
> Hear ye, hear ye, the court of swing
> ...


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ...are you serious with the bolded part? Like the violators addressing the JoP as "dude" ... I guess only either certain segments (albeit a tiny minority) of the population gets away with this and/or that JoP's wife gets to wear the pants at home ... lol.


I am quite serious. The JoP was really polite about it. I had him shortly after, and made sure I called him 'Your Worship, Sir' to show respect. Then ask if I said that and added Dude at the end, would that still be acceptable. He laughed, He says he gets worse but the person repeatedly kept calling him that in a form of disrespect.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> Our son got a parking ticket and the bylaw officer took pictures of his vehicle in the "no parking" spot.
> 
> Also, it used to be that if you paid the parking fine early it was lower than if you went to traffic court. I don't know if it is still that way.


Here, you still can get the reduction for early payment. So one tip is you can go to traffic court about 3 weeks after you receive the ticket (not earlier as it's not in the system), and can still choose to ask for further reduction if it's before the court date set. The court date set is the latest date or if you are pleading 'not guilty'.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> No dress code. I can assure you if you want a little entertainment, I was always surprised at what people wear to the courthouse. I have been formal (coming from work) to super casual (with my baby in tow). for court, I have been in more formal clothing, and address the judge as ‘your honor. i don’t know why this is such a big deal.


Sir/Ma'am and Your Honour sound respectful. Your Worship, My Lord and My Lady sound like titles from the feudal system. We're respecting these positions not worshiping them

It's a big deal because of issues Canadian government has had recently. I'm a presiding officer but the whole system is extremely out of date. This has been made very clear recently

We should not assume things are fair and unbiased because it's ancient tradition when Canada claims to be inclusive. There will probably be a lot of changes in coming decades after the throne changes


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

m3s said:


> Sir/Ma'am and Your Honour sound respectful. Your Worship, My Lord and My Lady sound like titles from the feudal system. We're respecting these positions not worshiping them
> 
> It's a big deal because of issues Canadian government has had recently. I'm a presiding officer but the whole system is extremely out of date. This has been made very clear recently
> 
> We should not assume things are fair and unbiased because it's ancient tradition when Canada claims to be inclusive. There will probably be a lot of changes in coming decades after the throne changes


if you feel it's a big deal on how you feel, and feel strongly enough then you can choose to fight it. Perhaps file a law suit and see if it will make up to the Supreme court. Make sure to call them all sir/ma’am or your honor the whole way see how it goes. Whatever you decide to do, I strongly advise don't call any of them 'dude'. 

Our mayor is also referred to as ‘your worship’ while in session. I have no idea why, but if I have address the mayor in council, I follow the protocol. In meetings mayor X is fine, less formal settings what whatever they prefer. My point is if I want something done, follow the set out protocols so there is no distraction on what I am trying to do. If I am fighting a traffic ticket, my goal is call them whatever I supposed to or whatever they want, so we can focus on the goal of getting the ticket reduced or thrown out. For me, not everything, or in fact many things are political. I have a goal and objective, I will do want I need to do. 

My posts weren’t for arguing opinions but rather give information on my experiences. This thread was specifically for advice on traffic ticket, which sadly have more experience than many, so was sharing that. My advice still stands, call the JoP whatever they want. If it's Sir/Ma'am, or Your worship, then do it. 

BTW ma'am literally originated from 'My Lady'.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> I am quite serious. The JoP was really polite about it. I had him shortly after, and made sure I called him 'Your Worship, Sir' to show respect. Then ask if I said that and added Dude at the end, would that still be acceptable. He laughed, He says he gets worse but the person repeatedly kept calling him that in a form of disrespect.


 ... you got a great sense of humour there plus a display of grace. Needless to say, respecting others is what is automatically expected in return. 

I'm kind of surprised that JoP you encountered had so much patience. I don't think those in Toronto would be kind enough to put up with that. The eye -back would probably be the lowest form of telling the dude-caller he's an ill-mannered jerk if not an illiterate one to begin with... LMAO.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

They mandated I come to the court house today only to see if I would plead guilty. Not guilty pleas require a court date and a disclosure process.

So, I will see them in late September.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

TomB16 said:


> They mandated I come to the court house today only to see if I would plead guilty. Not guilty pleas require a court date and a disclosure process.
> 
> So, I will see them in late September.


Couldn't that be done by video call nowadays?

Meanwhile I couldn't cross the border triple vaccinated to my own country for fear of spreading a virus that was already endemic in Canada. In the US they are doing court by zoom now

They needed to make sure you had some nice pants and weren't still in Mexico?


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

m3s said:


> Couldn't that be done by video call nowadays?


No need for a video call when they can issue a summons and have me drive downtown, pay for parking, come to the court house, and answer the question. Best of all, it exposes me to their parking enforcement shtick again.

Believe me, I took pics, had a tape measure with me, etc. when I parked near the court house. It was fine, though.

I hand delivered a request for evidence disclosure yesterday (with video... suffice to say, I'm not all that trusting). The packet also contained my pictures, measurements, and a letter outlining my defence.

There is about a 60/40 they will look at the measurements and realize they are out to lunch. I think it's more likely they will look at the pic the morning of the court date and either talk to me at the court house or continue to attempt prosecution. Again, if the judge is honest, they will lose. I do not expect competence from the city legal department but time will tell.

We are leaving the country four days after the court date. I'm more than a little concerned the date will slip. I asked the clerk for the earliest possible date and then nagged her to make the date even earlier, so she offered to bump it up two days. She said it was the best she could do.

As the date approaches, I will arrange to hand this off to my lawyer to fight while we are in Europe. This is how strongly I feel about fighting a $70 parking ticket. I'm tired of the City's trumped up parking enforcement revenue stream.

Everyone I've interacted with at the court house has made it really clear they know I'm guilty and I should just pay to save everyone the trouble.

I went down with the thought they would adjudicate the ticket (didn't realize they would issue a summons to ask what my plea was) so I had four 8x10 pics of tape measurements, as well as blow-ups of the city's pics. The clerk said, "Are you going to bring those?", as though it freaked her out a bit. I said, "Yes. I'm allowed to present evidence too." and she got a bit huffy. lol!


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Aren't you in Vancouver? If so, I thought them working folks were laid back. So why are cityhall workers, including those traffic court folks there working so hard? Kind of surprising.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

TomB16 said:


> No need for a video call when they can issue a summons and have me drive downtown, pay for parking, come to the court house, and answer the question. Best of all, it exposes me to their parking enforcement shtick again.
> 
> Believe me, I took pics, had a tape measure with me, etc. when I parked near the court house. It was fine, though.
> 
> ...


What was the mask protocol there these days?

I had to go into a government building yesterday that required masks but I didn't have one because nobody in the US has required them since they realized they don't do sh!t

So the woman asks another women to hand her a mask for me and demanded I put it on

I said I was maintaining far more than the required distance until you came to hand me that mask with your bare hands that you both touched already

I haven't been sick for years but no wonder so many people are sick -

“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I am in Saskatchewan.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

TomB16 said:


> I am in Saskatchewan.


Isn't there any public transit? Why do you need to drive down?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> I am in Saskatchewan.


 ... okay, lack of workoholism there isn't that much different from Vancouverites.



Tostig said:


> Isn't there any public transit? Why do you need to drive down?


 ... LOL!!! Yeah, 15 buses 2 miles long all available/parked on a downtown street in "Regina". Not sure if Tom is in Regina and if not, think driving is it or public transit is out of the question.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

The ticket has been dropped by the city.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

My son got a speeding ticket in June. first one. Went to pay it same day. The attendant refused to make his money. Encouraged him to request a court date.

No court date assigned yet. Wondering if there’s a back log of cases due to COVID. Are there time limits on when you should have a trial? Can you have it tossed if a trial isn’t offered during a reasonable time?


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

We used to have a right to a speedy trial. That meant different things in provincial court than it did in federal court. I have no idea if this still holds but it might.

A friend of mine, who happens to be a LEO, once fought a speeding ticket on the grounds that he could not remember the situation when the ticket was issued, 20 months prior, and requested the ticket be dismissed. It was.

I think it varies by province but I seem to recall provincial court had a guideline of 18 months. They wouldn't just dismiss a case at that point. The defendant would have to request a dismissal.

In your son's case, I suspect he will not enjoy the court experience.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

TomB16 said:


> We used to have a right to a speedy trial. That meant different things in provincial court than it did in federal court. I have no idea if this still holds but it might.
> 
> A friend of mine, who happens to be a LEO, once fought a speeding ticket on the grounds that he could not remember the situation when the ticket was issued, 20 months prior, and requested the ticket be dismissed. It was.
> 
> ...


He just his g license, so I think his plan is to ask for a reduction in the charge. He got booked for 22 over, which I believe will cost him 3 demerit points. If he can get the charge lowered to 15 over, there will be no demerit points. 

I also believe the prosecutors are available by video call to negotiate a settlement prior to attending court.
overall, not a big deal, but some good life lessons to be had.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> The ticket has been dropped by the city.


 ... so how long did you spend there pleading your case?


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

It did not get to court. My only court appearance was to plead not guilty and have another court date set.

The city called and told me they were dropping it.

At this point, I think the less I write the better. I don't want to smear them or the process but I would say they seemed to have zero regard for the strength of my case, my measurements, etc. According to what I was told, they did not drop it for any reason of justice or truth but for administrative reasons.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

TomB16 said:


> According to what I was told, they did not drop it for any reason of justice or truth but for administrative reasons.


Lol they dropped it to save face. How convenient


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I would think they dropped it so they could clear out space in court for more serious issues. I would bet many of those "dropping" letters went out that week to many traffic violations and other non criminal issues.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> It did not get to court. My only court appearance was to plead not guilty and have another court date set.
> 
> The city called and told me they were dropping it.
> 
> At this point, I think the less I write the better. I don't want to smear them or the process but I would say they seemed to have zero regard for the strength of my case, my measurements, etc. According to what I was told, they did not drop it for any reason of justice or truth but for administrative reasons.


 ... save yourself the time in writing the letter or sending it (even by email) as you've been proven innocent (until found guilty -by them that is.) They figured it's most likely to cost them more to see you in court for the JoP's salary, traffic cop, administrations, etc. than the amount of the fine which would be disputable. 

Now watch your municipal taxes go up to account for that lost revenue ... LOL!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Maybe they feared facing the legal wrath of Tom.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

The "(Legal*) Wrath of Tom":


 * added

Me:


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

TomB16 said:


> We used to have a right to a speedy trial. That meant different things in provincial court than it did in federal court. I have no idea if this still holds but it might.
> ...


The law relating to trial within a reasonable time is federal and is addressed by s. 11(b) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

11. Any person charged with an offence has the right:
b. to be tried within a reasonable time;

Much judicial ink has been spilled over what constitutes trial within a reasonable time. 

On July 8, 2016, the Supreme Court of Canada released its decision in _R._ v. _Jordan_, 2016 SCC 27, establishing a new analytical framework for determining whether an accused s. 11(b) Charter rights have been violated. _Jordan_ sets the temporal ceilings for the prosecution of criminal cases in Canada. The presumptive ceiling for cases tried in Supreme Court is 30 months; the presumptive ceiling for cases tried in Provincial Court is 18 months. If the total time from the charge date to the actual or anticipated end of the trial [minus defence delay] exceeds the ceiling, the delay is presumptively unreasonable. The question as to when the clock begins ticking in s. 11(b) Charter applications is well settled: it is the date the charge is laid. When or if the clock stops ticking is not so clear cut. Some have argued that the the presumptive ceiling includes sentencing. However, the B.C. Supreme Court cases appear to hold that the presumptive ceiling established in _Jordan_ begins with the charge and ends with conviction. Although s. 11(b) Charter rights are not exhausted with conviction, the process for determining those rights is separate and independent of the _Jordan_ analysis.

A few minutes research this morning turned up some cases involving speeding tickets. I did not turn up any post-_Jordan_ cases. But I did not put in a prodigious effort. The results are mixed. 

CHARTER OF RIGHTS — Section 11(b) • Court granting judicial stay of proceedings of speeding ticket, finding 18-months lapse since offence date, 3 trial dates and 5 days of missed work to be prejudicial to accused and outweighing benefit to society in continuing with prosecution of $138 speeding ticket.

R. v. D. (K.) Prov. Ct., R.R. Smith Prov. J., 2006 BCPC 0556, Kelowna AH13680378-1, December 20, 2006 , 6pp.

https://www.provincialcourt.bc.ca/judgments.php?link=[URL]https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcpc/[/URL]

CHARTER OF RIGHTS — Section 11(d) — Wording of traffic violation ticket not so vague as to offend accused’s s. 11(d) rights. • MOTOR VEHICLES — Offences — Speeding — Wording of traffic violation ticket not so vague as to offend accused’s s. 11(d) rights — Delay of 13.5 months between issuance of speeding ticket and trial offending accused’s Charter right to trial within reasonable time — Stay ordered.

R. v. Meyer Prov. Ct., Makhdoom J.P., 2002 BCPC 0175, Doc. North Vancouver AF07807996, May 22, 2002 , 18pp.

Provincial Court of BC Judgments


MOTOR VEHICLE OFFENCES — Speeding — Prosecution of offences — Unreasonable delay • CHARTER OF RIGHTS — Section 11(b) — 19-month delay in bringing speeding ticket to trial not infringing defendant's right to trial within reasonable time.

R. v. Lefort Prov. Ct., Challenger Prov. J., 2004 BCPC 0044, Richmond AG44905084, February 19, 2004 (oral), 15pp.

Provincial Court of BC Judgments

I should add that now, in the post-_Jordan _era, we see endless debate in the cases about reasons for delay and whether certain periods of delay should be taken out of the equation. There is much discussion about "Crown delay", "defence delay", "exceptional circumstances", "inherent time requirements", etc. and some of the cases still in the system, while post-_Jordan_, are considered "transitional" cases and case law has developed related to their handling. Lots to keep lawyers busy.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Thank you for the great detail, Mukhang.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

TomB16 said:


> Thank you for the great detail, Mukhang.


All part of the service, sir.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

For what it's worth, I recently won a small claims dispute with one of the largest companies in Canada. I certainly did not win because of any prowess. The company made a mistake, refused to correct it, and were caught flat footed in court. It must have been embarrassing for them. And, yes, it was for a comically small amount of money.

The process involved about an hour reading the SCC process, about 90 minutes to carefully craft a demand letter, and then filling out a claim form.

The people involved with the SCC process were tremendously helpful and I would say they reached out to me and operated at my level with absolutely no scorn toward my lack of understanding of the law. These are tremendously good people who enhanced my outlook on the viability of our country.

We need more people to challenge big interests when they make a mistake. Without accountability, the whole system degenerates into an authoritative state. Regular citizens bear some of the responsibility of this happening, as we tend to pay for these small problems instead of taking the time and energy to correct them.

If I had a do-over, I would definitely consider going into law. We need lawyers to keep our country morally centered and keep power centers operating honestly. It can all work but everyone has to do their part.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^


> ... We need more people to challenge big interests when they make a mistake. Without accountability, the whole system degenerates into an authoritative state. Regular citizens bear some of the responsibility of this happening, as we tend to pay for these small problems instead of taking the time and energy to correct them. ...


 ... that's why we have CBC's GoPublic and CMF (for example) to get the words out as not everyone is as language/time/effort/law savvy as you are. Even on the basis of "principles" of which "I" believe that 90% of the Canadian's population wouldn't even considered it on. In fact, it's the eventual $ payout that "I, me and myself" am getting that would be the determining factor in pursuing it (the injustice) in SCC or not.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Mukhang pera said:


> All part of the service, sir.


Please forgive my contradiction but you clearly care about more than just money.


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