# What inexperienced investors can learn from T.Gal



## PuckiTwo (Oct 26, 2011)

> ......my 1st purchase for trading purposes only, was 226 shares, but I paid about $5 per share [not $600+], and made a moderate profit [for a moderate investment], after holding* some months.* Then I used the same capital + profits to do my 2nd trade, and so on.


The above is copied from a conversation between T.Gal and another poster. I read most of T.Gal’s comments on the forum, so should every inexperienced and new investor. Of course, newbies should also read the recommended “Eight with Weight” books. 

But here is somebody who speaks from her own experience and her posts hold an investor wisdom you will not easily absorb from books. T.Gal consistently states in her posts that it takes/took her *sometimes months, years *before she moves a stock - it’s like a red thread thru her posts. 

To me this is one of the most valuable messages a new investor can learn. She teaches patience by practising it. Before I read her messages on CMF I drove myself and our advisor nuts when a stock dropped, simply didn’t know what “holding a long time” meant. For some people, especially when their investment disappears in front of their eyes, “a long time” could be _days._ I learnt thru her comments that (of course, depending on circumstances) it is “allowed” and necessary to wait and force myself to be patient. 
I wonder how many new and inexperienced investors are in the same position as I am and not being patient enough to wait how a stock develops. It’s not easy, but to know that somebody else is successful with it is a huge encouragement.


----------



## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

i am sure that T.gal will be very happy with ur comments Pucki.
do not forget that T.gal is an active trader also


----------



## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

What's more is that she knows so much about sports


----------



## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Do you wish to invest or trade?

A good advisor doesn't want to buy and sell a stock in the matter of a few months or days because of a little price movement. 

T.gal has her system and way of doing things and is a good read but like any trading system using real money it take a long time to be comfortable playing it if you can last long enough to do it. Also holding losing positions can go on for years holding your money hostage while you make very little return while you wait.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

T.Gal is indeed very knowledgeable, can learn alot from her. Don't even try banning her... (I tried). :biggrin:


----------



## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

dogcom said:


> Do you wish to invest or trade?


Pucki, think long and hard about this question.

Investing and trading are not the same.

If you are a long-term investor, you should pay no attention to T.Gal's active trading (with all due respect to T.Gal).


----------



## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

There are a lot of"traders" on this site. Being an "investor" I generally ignore them. I am not complaining. But keep in mind if your objective is to create a nestegg for retirement, frequent trading may not be the best approach.


----------



## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

I still maintain that, for a young INVESTOR, the best approach is to INVEST in a short portfolio of perhaps four or five of the lowest fee, broadest based ETF's and then just hold them forever, trading only for rebalancing purposes.

This form of INVESTING is not for everyone as it is deathly dull but history proves that you will outperform the vast majority of stock TRADERS over the long haul.

I get a kick out of all of the TRADING antics on the 'what are you buying' and 'what are you selling' threads on this forum and my final thought to them is "good luck to you over the long run" as it will take more luck than skill to outperform long term buy-and-hold index INVESTORS.

Start by looking at the model portfolios at www.canadiancouchpotato.com


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

PuckiTwo said:


> ﻿
> 
> 1. Of course, newbies should also read the recommended “Eight with Weight” books.
> 2. But here is somebody who speaks from her own experience....


1 & 2: yes, and yes! 

Thanks for your kind words Pucki2 & for reading my posts. 

I started my [serious] education in stocks in 2008, a topic that I had previously had no interest in whatsoever, hence leaving all decisions to my previous FA. Then, I purchased my 1st stock in Oct.09 and placed my first trade [the one you quoted] in April/2010. 

That 1st trade had definitely been a highly speculative one [biotech], but a good learning experience of not only the art of trading, but of that exciting/interesting market sector [definitely not for complete newbies with no interest in the sector, nor the faint of heart]. Lucky for me, it turned out to be a good one, though given the amount involved, I would have been fine had it not worked out. 

The trade you mentioned, was purchased in 2010 @ $4.86 & sold @ $6.30, so $325.44 profit [- $13.90 commissions]; not bad for an initial investment amount of $1,098.36. My 2nd & 3rd trades of this stock had given me similar return; each time increasing the # of shares by the profit amount, so essentially, subsequent trades were made of initial capital [not new] + profits, so if stock had gone to $0, my own capital was still no more than $1K+. I continue to trade this stock [and others as u know], in much higher volume by now as I now understand the sector & stocks much better, and have traded it numerous times in 2.5 years, so by now, I trade this particular inexpensive stock with 100% profits.

*For a new & inexperienced investor, I always recommend LOTS of basic learning & reading before starting to invest in the market*, and also as you mentioned, there is even a recommended reading list on the forum, which was especially put together for newbies [a team effort of 3 members here] :encouragement: , so that they start well with the basics so as not to get discouraged to pursue financial literacy. However, all the reading in the world won't make you experienced until you start the practice, which should be in 'baby steps' like the above example.

*dogcom:* as you know, I did not start as a trader and I'm mostly a long-term investor. As well, *most of what I trade, I also hold long-term.* I trade simply due to high volatility & use most of the profits to add to long-term positions.

The stock price of the above example, which I purchased/sold in 2010 for $6+, is now $3, so it was an ideal stock to trade, and not hold long-term [biotechs are tricky & dance to a different tune than that of Mr. Market].

Another example, MFC, which I bought in 09, is now, 3 years later, still considerably lower than in 09, but this is a stock that I want to hold for years to come, so while I'm holding, trading has in fact, allowed me to adjust some unrealized losses [DCA].

RIMM on the other hand.....well, we all have painful experiences, no matter how long we have been investing. I still own the stock [as well as trade], but only the ones I purchased earlier this year. Though I had some realized capital losses, I actually recovered as I invested the returned capital in another tech stock that has since almost tripled for me [no, not AAPL, though I own that stock since 2010 and still hold long-term, too, I might add]. :rolleyes2:

From my own personal experience, I don't believe that in extreme high & lengthy volatile periods, that ALL stocks should be held forever & simply rebalance, hence, I either: average down/up [the latter mostly with dividends & profits]; book a % of profits [for re-balance & risk management]; sell completely [depending on stock & other better opportunities]; drip; trade, etc. Another words, I'm NO couch potato type investor.

*I have learned a lot from this forum, but I'm responsible for my own failure/successes/research; nobody here encouraged/forced me/taught me to trade, VOLATILITY did, AND I'm not telling people to trade, I'm just sharing my experiences, which is what this adult forum is for.*

*SR:* and why do you think there are traders? Isn't it because of current market conditions [or conditions that have lasted now several years?]. My focus is on accumulating the right stocks and perhaps some day, get the $400K in dividends you get [if I remember correctly, it's you who told us you're/were that good of an investor], and not just accumulate/buy with fresh capital, which does not fall free from the trees. 

I do think there is a bit of jealousy here sometimes between active vs passive investors [especially from the most passive investor here of all]. :biggrin: But remember: effort/discipline/knowledge [yours, not that of others], = power!

*'Forty per cent of Canadians fail investment knowledge test: CSA'* 
http://business.financialpost.com/2...canadians-fail-investment-knowledge-test-csa/


----------



## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

Another approach is the so-called 'core and explore' portfolio whereby a certain portion of your portfolio is INVESTED long term in low fee, broad based index funds while another portion is used to TRADE in individual stocks. Over time, you will be able to compare your results from each approach.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> Don't even try banning her... (I tried). :biggrin:


Yes, you can ban anyone, but only under TRM's thread, but no, I don't recommend you pick on 'senior members' right off the bat. :distress::rolleyes2:


----------



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

dog com gold stone & square root are not understanding what pucki posted, nor do they understand what toronto.gal has been posting all along in this forum. 

t.gal has always said invest in quality stocks & swing trade with the profits only.

she has posted many times about quality holdings she has that remain somewhat underwater, but she is waiting with confidence. In the meantime, t.gal often points out that a certain amount of swing trading can help to adjust a cost base downwards, if that is what an investor/taxpayer would want or require.

it is this highly conservative "red thread" which pucki has picked up & written about.

as for belguy, here we have a special nonsense case unto itself. Belguy we know nothing is ever going to get through to you, but just in case somebody else happens along here, may i say that history has never proven any such thing.

ETFs in canada were first launched around 1999. That's 13 years ago. There are no lifetime studies.

prior to ETFs there were index funds, originally brought out by TD asset management. But they were only launched around 1993-94. Less than 20 years ago. No lifetime studies.

prior to index funds there were a couple of obscure index proxies that traded on toronto, but retail investors didn't buy em. No lifetime studies.


----------



## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

I've gotta say, I LOVE reading T.Gal's posts because she is very clear and helpful and I enjoy getting insight into what others' approaches are as a new investor myself-not that I'm mimicking anyone here to be clear!


----------



## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

I think there are traders here because they talk about their trading. I'm not being critical. i am just saying that for a retired guy who seldom trades, these discussions are not really relevant to me. Furthermore, I take the trading results described by some with a grain of salt. We all like talking about our successes, myself included. 
I think for many young people saving is perhaps more important than investing results. Of course it doesn't come from trees. It comes from hard work, a good education, and a good savings ethic.
Not sure who is jealous of whom?


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Square Root said:


> 1. I think for many young people saving is perhaps more important than investing results......
> 2. Of course it doesn't come from trees. It comes from hard work, a good education, and a good savings ethic....
> 3. Not sure who is jealous of whom?


1. I agree, it's 1,2 and not 2,1. But one can still learn about financial literacy from early on, especially these days with so much information readily available, however, as surveys show, the literacy level is still lower than it ought to be [regardless of level of savings].

2. I agree again [I was using a bit of sarcasm btw]; the fact is, however, that neither of what you have mentioned above would necessarily help a person become and/or want to become a good investor; you can be all that and still not have a clue about investing for the future.

3. Perhaps I should not have used the word jealous, maybe 'disbeliever' would have been a more appropriate adjective, but it's not about believing what anyone is doing/saying here or being a copy-cat. The focus should be in learning & understanding one's own investments and all that it entails. I think most here share experiences for the sake of helping others, not for the sake of showing off their truths or lies.

HP/Y&A: thanks.  

Hp was one of the 1st members who gave me encouragement when I joined here, and that meant & still means a lot.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> ...prior to ETFs there were index funds, originally brought out by TD asset management. But they were only launched around 1993-94. Less than 20 years ago...


Hmmmm ... I'll have to check my records but I think your timing is slightly off. I seem to recall buying TD index funds more than 20 years ago. 

It won't be easy to check my records so I went the lazy route of checking TD's web site, which shows their Canadian Index fund with 28 years and an inception of 1985.


It is certainly not lifetime but then again - neither are the indexes that are changing as much as quarterly.


Cheers


----------



## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

And what every inexperienced, experienced or non-investor, cmf member or not can learn from our T.Gal is how to be nice others, be helpfull without being full of air, share info without being patronizing......
She is such a decent gal ;-)


----------



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

eclectic thanks so much for your research. But i submit to you that, although tdam had a lone canadian index fund as of 1985 plus a lone US index fund as of 1986, these did not have broad public appeal & were not mass marketed to average investors. There would be no lifetime comparative studies based on retail investor participation in these early index funds.

to the best of my knowledge, it was not until the 1990s that td asset management pioneered the canadian launch, with a heavy marketing campaign, of a broad family of index funds designed to be sold to small & medium retail investors.

to prepare for this launch & to optimize their fund offerings, tdam had already bought out Ami associates, a small montreal firm of investment counsel headed by economist Carl Otto that was known for expertise in indexation. This expertise had been developed for Ami's pension fund clients.

all this was something less than 20 years ago, so there would be no lifetime comparative studies based on these td index funds either.


----------



## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> dog com gold stone & square root are not understanding what pucki posted, nor do they understand what toronto.gal has been posting all along in this forum.
> 
> t.gal has always said invest in quality stocks & swing trade with the profits only.
> 
> ...




Humble pie I fully understand what pucki posted and I suspect the others you mentioned did as well. Still however it seemed a warning was a good idea because no one knows for sure what someone has in mind when trading and investing. T.gal is great and has her way of investing/trading and seems to do quite well as you do with options.

It all reminds me of Humpty Dumpty falling on top of a tea party soaking the wicked witch sitting on the other side of the table.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> eclectic thanks so much for your research. But i submit to you that, although tdam had a lone canadian index fund as of 1985 plus a lone US index fund as of 1986, these did not have broad public appeal & were not mass marketed to average investors. There would be no lifetime comparative studies based on retail investor participation in these early index funds...


Hmmmm ... again - I'll have to check my records. 

I do recall that there were posters up in the TD branch and the bank investment person was highlighting the index MF as one of the several MF options for the RRSP contribution being deposited. Marketing them through the TD bank investment reps would IMO qualify as a broad appeal. 

I doubt I still have the prospectus booklet or the info I'd gathered at the time, before investing.


Cheers


----------



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Eclectic12 said:


> Hmmmm ... again - I'll have to check my records.
> 
> I do recall that there were posters up in the TD branch and the bank investment person was highlighting the index MF as one of the several MF options for the RRSP contribution being deposited. Marketing them through the TD bank investment reps would IMO qualify as a broad appeal.
> 
> ...



what each: you recall all this from 1985 ?

posters on walls 27 years ago ?

details of chats w bank staffers while making rrsp deposit in 1985 ?

eclectic you have enough memory to save the whole of ageing north america. They should clone you, find out how you developed those gigantic cloud capacity photographic memory gray cells.

me i'm sticking to my knitting. Big tdam push to launch index investing for cross-canada mr & mrs john q public was in the 1990s after acquisition of indexation expertise. Prior to that launch, indexation was mostly an institutional specialization not known to small retail investors. 

but let us never imagine that eclectic was ever an ordinary small retail investor !


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Homerhomer said:


> And what every inexperienced, experienced or non-investor, cmf member or not can learn from our T.Gal is how to be nice others, be helpfull without being full of air, share info without being patronizing......
> She is such a decent gal ;-)


Such kind words Homerhomer; I like you too! :joyous:


----------



## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Square Root said:


> Furthermore, I take the trading results described by some with a grain of salt. We all like talking about our successes, myself included.


Agree. Retail investors tend to overestimate their own performance. This article has some interesting numbers:

*Do You Actually Know Your Portfolio's Returns? Many Don't*

This is not directed at anyone in particular. Please don't take it personally.

Posted strictly for educational purposes, to highlight the importance of good record keeping and benchmarking. :encouragement:


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Don't know about the history of index funds.........but I was in the bank the other day and the representative had one of those charts on her desk...........called "the big picture" I think, and it showed the returns of various investments since 1937.

As I recall.........

An investment of $1000 in the US index (assuming S&P index) would be worth $2,400,000 today.

An investment of $1000 in the TSX in 1937 would be worth $1,200,000 today.

Investing $1000 in Bonds, GICs, and other funds were worth around $500,000 or less.

From that chart...........buy and hold did very well.

I guess traders could have done better or worse........depending on their trades.


----------



## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

Google 'origins of index funds'. They have been around since the 70's. That's some 40 years.


----------



## Echo (Apr 1, 2011)

This chart is pretty cool - http://investmentsillustrated.com/clients/agf/bigpicture/en/


----------



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Belguy said:


> Google 'origins of index funds'. They have been around since the 70's. That's some 40 years.



won't you please google it yourself. In canada, no. In canada, not on a mass popular scale until TD launched its first family of heavily marketed index funds in the 1990s.

it turns out that the Ami Partners sale to TD was even later than i'd remembered. 1996. That's very recent. Only 16 years ago.

http://www.amipartners.com/index_curr.htm?page=frame_about.htm

those "passively managed divisions" sold to TD in 1996 were the proprietary indexation modalities which Otto & his associates at Ami had developed, primarily for pension funds. Once in the hands of td asset management, they would be transformed into canada's first family of popular, brand-name index funds designed for retail investors.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Belguy said:


> I get a kick out of all of the TRADING antics on the 'what are you buying' and 'what are you selling' threads......


I forgot to reply to this earlier, but wanted to say to you Mr. Belguy, that I'm glad you're enjoying [in your own words], the payasadas written around here. Is it better than hiding under the bed? :02.47-tranquillity:


----------



## PuckiTwo (Oct 26, 2011)

*T.Gal,* many thks for sharing yr first investment experience, very educational as usual (I agree with Homerhomer! upthread) and thks to everybody else who gave advice, warned, etc. It is so great to get all your advice, concerns, warnings - this is an unbelievable forum.

Am well aware that T.Gal is also a trader beside an investor

I am neither an investor nor a trader, I am an apprentice of investing. Investing to me is like starting/running a company like that:
- Phase 1 schooling, university, college - that’s the theory, the books
- Phase 2 Implementation of theory (trial and error). 
- Phase 3 Let's say you start a business. You base the selection of its products on what you learnt and what you experienced so far. Let’s say you have some success. 

There are now two ways you can go:
- stay forever with the original/traditional product and don’t change anything OR
- look around what your competitors are doing, what your suppliers and customers are saying

We chose/and still choose the 2nd path, looked at other people’s ideas and adapted them to fit new target groups and our company’s personality. Never steal from somebody else if you don’t know what you could do differently. 

My approach about “money-handling/growing” follows the same route. This is not about “Investing” OR “Trading” - this is not about “you belong in this box and you in the other”. I would never ignore other persons’ strategies - they are too interesting.

T.Gal’s posts as well as Humbles, Lepthurns, GOBs, MoneyGals and so many others’ contributions have a psychological impact beyond teaching books:

Different approaches open new horizons, new insights, open up new strategies. The ideas that you can start small, that you don’t need millions, that you can (and need to be ) creative, that you need to watch your cost and outcome if trading, can day-trade, swing-trade, options, couch-potato, etc., I think is not necessarily knowledge new and inexperienced investors are born with. Usually, newbies are overwhelmed! 

Nor does it hurt if seasoned investors open their minds. I don’t think that in these times of uncertainties and volatility traditional strategies will work anymore and you have to be very open to a variety of them (without losing your shirt) 

From the above you probably will have deducted that I am no couch-potato-investor (too interested in adventure, though cautious). Am past the accumulation phase and getting back to phase 1 to fight brain fatigue (see above)

*Goldstone*: I know our portfolio’s return *almost to a T!* (thks to my partner / running a company successfully comes with good record keeping, 
*Sampson:* sorry, sports not on my agenda, no help by T.Gal there.:frown:
*Dogcom* thks for your warnings - I really appreciate it

Tks to everybody. Puck (not like in hockey but like Pookkie)


----------



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

GoldStone said:


> Retail investors tend to overestimate their own performance ... Posted strictly for educational purposes, to highlight the importance of good record keeping and benchmarking



goldstone i would appreciate it very much if you would kindly lessen the sarcasm you sometimes wield.

as for record-keeping, every single trade that toronto.gal or the growing band of successful options traders mention in this forum is posted in real time or within a day or 2. These can easily be verified. There is no need to be skeptical.

for example, the kurdish oilco i bought last friday at 1.04 - i mentioned that trade within hours - closed tonight at 1.29. 5000 shares. I didn't sell any. I have reasons for the decision to keep.

what we've been seeing for years now is a monumental, oceanic secularization of traditional investing thanks primarily to the internet. Today, an ordinary investment "professional" can be a total dullard compared to a nimble free-lancer who has strong knowledge plus a good eye. Quite miraculously, the playing field has levelled out at last.

please note the reference to strong knowledge. This is something that toronto.gal advocates as well. We both spend most of our time learning. Together we created the Eight with Weight sticky up top of the Investing section so that new investors who care to learn would have a little startup library they might want to consider.


----------



## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

humble,

1. I'm sorry if you sensed sarcasm in my post upthread. I can assure you NO sarcasm was intended.

2. I specifically wrote:

_"This is not directed at anyone in particular. Please don't take it personally."_

Yet you took it personally.

I don't question your performance, T.Gal's performance or anyone's else performance.

I have genuine concern about novice investors who may try to emulate what experienced active traders on this forum are doing.

They need to learn how to benchmark their performance, so they can learn from their mistakes. Or, quit active trading altogether if it doesn't work for them.

Larry Swedrow said it succinctly in the article I linked:



> Even smart people make mistakes. However, they learn from them and don't repeat them. Unfortunately, the evidence suggests that investors generally don't learn from experience, and they keep making the same mistakes. One reason may be because they don't know they're making mistakes.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> what each: you recall all this from 1985 ? ...
> details of chats w bank staffers while making rrsp deposit in 1985 ?
> 
> eclectic you have enough memory to save the whole of ageing north america. They should clone you, find out how you developed those gigantic cloud capacity photographic memory gray cells...


It's amazing how what interests people sticks in their memory. How many people can quote sports stats from thirty years ago or more but don't remember what they had for breakfast or the last hydro bill amount?

In any case, the best the memory markers I can figure out say this is somewhere between 1987 and 1992. I'm leaning to 1987 but until I find the date on the paperwork, I won't be sure.


Cloning someone with a photographic memory would likely be a better choice - they'd likely have the date already! :encouragement:




humble_pie said:


> ...but let us never imagine that eclectic was ever an ordinary small retail investor !


Not ordinary ... but definitely a small retail investor. 

No brokerage account, an RRSP, a $105K mortgage and an annual salary somewhere close to $28K. 


Other trivia rolling around in my head:

I had missed being able to deposit to the RRSP, withdraw the next day for the HBP *and* keep the tax deduction by two weeks.

The first car I bought was 1986 Ford Escort sport model with a 1.9L engine bought used from a GM dealer for $10K with 26,000 Km on it. The next was a 1994 Escort demonstrator from a Ford dealer for $15K, with a 1.8L engine with 12,000 Km on it. The license plate was 181-CLO until I exchanged the rusted plates in July 2006.

TD Waterhouse IPO'd between 1998 and 2001 for over $30 a share. With the dotcom bubble burst, TD bank within a year or two made an offer to buy the shares out, if they were able to acquire 90%. Buried in the fine print of the offer were transcripts of the independent pricing authority arguing that a fair offer should be around $12 to $16 while TD bank wanted to offer $7 or so. After several attempts, the pricing authority gave up with the offer being bumped up to around $9.


----------



## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Wow, Mr or Mrs moderators are so fast here, I guess the rule is certain members can dish out anything they want without any consequences, but anything said against them is quickly removed.

Maybe at least you could explain to me why my post was removed.
Thank you.

Maybe Mr Sarcasm is moderator himself ;-)


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Homerhomer said:


> Wow, Mr or Mrs moderators are so fast here, I guess the rule is certain members can dish out anything they want without any consequences, but anything said against them is quickly removed.
> 
> Maybe at least you could explain to me why my post was removed.
> Thank you.
> ...


I didn't think there was any moderation here.  Are you sure you posted it correctly?


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Please everybody, this thread has my name on it, so let's be friendly.


----------



## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> I didn't think there was any moderation here.  Are you sure you posted it correctly?


Yeah, I am pretty sure my post was around for about 30 minutes or so, however if indeed I am wrong then I do apologize to the moderators and I will repost below what I have posted (or meant to post) previously (the best I remember), so there it goes.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> 1. kurdish oilco i bought last friday at 1.04 - i mentioned that trade within hours - closed tonight at 1.29. 5000 shares. I didn't sell any. I have reasons for the decision to keep.
> 
> 2. Today, an ordinary investment "professional" can be a total dullard compared to a nimble free-lancer who has strong knowledge plus a good eye. Quite miraculously, the playing field has levelled out at last.
> 
> 3. please note the reference to strong knowledge. Together we created the Eight with Weight sticky up top of the Investing section so that new investors who care to learn would have a little startup library they might want to consider.


1. May it be another AOI success! Isn't it great when one can make profits with profits? Isn't that what investments are all about? And sure this takes hard work & NOT for the faint of heart. 

2. Indeed! 

I feel disgusted at myself when I think about how I was the 'dullard' one for so long, but mieux vaut tard que jamais. We can all learn more, even without an eagle eye.

3. And you can't copy knowledge from someone else. The 'Eight with Weight sticky' was a team effort, but it had been 100% your idea.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

PuckiTwo said:


> There are now two ways you can go:
> - stay forever with the original/traditional product and don’t change anything OR
> - look around what your competitors are doing, what your suppliers and customers are saying
> 
> ...


Nice post Pookkie and could not agree more.


----------



## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Pucki your welcome and good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Goldstone I don't know what is wrong with what you said other then confirm the warning I put forward.

T.gal it is time to move and join us out west and change your name to V.gal.

Moving forward now we are indeed in dangerous times for buy and hold and traders of all kinds. Buy and hold investors are in danger from the systemic risk of the incredible debt in the world and the open manipulation and money printing going on everywhere. We also don't know what kind of turmoil will occur once the election is over and the president can put forward the worst part of their plans early on. 

For traders pucki keep one thing in mind and that is T.gal has done very well after the destruction of 2009 so you don't know what will happen with her trading or holding when the bear comes back. Also as I said before in this thread watch out when holding a losing position as seen with a solid company like RIM. In my experience cutting and dealing with the losers is number one in trading. I had a couple of losing trades this month and quickly sold them before I lost a lot money so in the end my winning positions far out paced any losses I took. 

Lastly T.gal don't take this the wrong way because you have your system and it works for you and I appreciate you sharing it with us here. For others they can learn from you but they have to find their own way because of the emotions and moving parts that go on with trading. We also don't see the down time or the in between time when you are trading and the thought processes you are going through when trading or thinking about on how to use your money.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Homerhomer said:


> And what every inexperienced, experienced or non-investor, cmf member or not can learn from our T.Gal is how to be nice others, be helpfull without being full of air, share info without being patronizing......
> She is such a decent gal ;-)


 ... agree ... I wanna be TO.gal's pal. each:


----------



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> ... mieux vaut tard que jamais.


isn't that true for all of us !

but what i should have said is that the playing field is levelling out, at least to a certain extent. I don't imagine it will level entirely in the foreseeable future. However the internet has given us realms & kingdoms of knowledge unimaginable even to our parents.


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Homerhomer said:


> Yeah, I am pretty sure my post was around for about 30 minutes or so, however if indeed I am wrong then I do apologize to the moderators and I will repost below what I have posted (or meant to post) previously (the best I remember), so there it goes:
> 
> To which I said:
> 
> ...


Oh yes - I read that post. Can't say I understood it, but I also can't see why any mod would remove it. I really doubt they did.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

dogcom said:


> 1. T.gal has done very well after the destruction of 2009 so you don't know what will happen with her trading or holding....
> 2. In my experience cutting and dealing with the losers is number one in trading...
> 3. For others they can learn from you but they have to find their own way because of the emotions and moving parts that go on with trading.


1. Not exactly the case as I bought my 1st stock on Oct.30/09, by which time, and unfortunately, stocks had recovered considerably from the lows of March/09 [but was simply not ready, not psychologically, and not knowledge-wise either]. 

And I'll repeat, I did not start as a trader NOR am I just a trader; never have been, never will be. 

I began picking stocks for the first time and for the long-term between late 09/early 2010, such as & to just name a few: AAPL/CDN banks/CNR/ENB/MFC/POT/SU/TRP, etc., and of these, I still hold all my initial positions purchased between the mentioned dates above, but it does not mean that I could not trade them when the price of for example MFC, fell by 50%. Others that I had bought with initially the thought of holding long-term, were companies such as ECA/TLM and others, but was aware from my readings that gas prices were tumbling, hence I sold them with profit before they crashed, but picked them back again at much, much lower prices than initially bought for; it's what investors needed to do, adjust to market conditions, which went beyond simply noise [of which there is plenty of as well]. 

So those that forever paint me [and other traders that are also long-term investors] as a crazy nano-second trader of buying/selling, buying/selling without thinking, and oh, all those fees that I'm paying & hence making my broker love me, & not thinking about the future, stock appreciation, etc., you got my strategy ALL wrong. Yes, I'm making my broker happy & rich, but so am I in the process [by owning their stock LONG-TERM, and not just trading, LOL]. Nowhere is it written that you can only hold a particular stock, but not trade it on the side as well when the price drops; you in fact, can do both, IF you know how to trade, IF you understand the market, IF you know your stock and IF you have a disciplined plan. 

Nowhere is it written that you must only balance at certain times; that you must only average down [or up] with fresh capital & dividends. Say you have 20 stocks in your long-term portfolio, how are you going to add to existing positions of all if you don't book profits & don't take advantage of incredible trading opportunities at all time lows? Call it market manipulation/HFT, or whatever you like, I will do what is necessary [and legal] to accumulate, protect & grow my investments. 

Unless you have a job that pays you a million a year, you have to move your investments and increase your capital so as to be able to accumulate all your selected investments with more than just dividends [if applicable], stock appreciation & fresh capital. An example I like to always go back to is MFC: it dropped more than 50% since Oct.09, so let's say someone purchased for $20, then the stock went to $10, how long for the investor who bought at $20 before he/she recovers? Just picture all the DCA and trading opportunities this stock has offered as a result of the huge drop in price. In 2009, 1,000 shares cost $20K; not long ago, 1,000 shares cost $10K; at today's price, it cost $12,580, and how many examples such as these do we have with other big companies that we know 99% that won't go bankrupt, ie: that are not falling knives, but have fallen victim to issues beyond company's control. 

If you do nothing, or very little adjustments, you'll be waiting a looooooong time to recover, *and while the price goes up, you will simply be recovering, but not making a cent.* MFC is up 16% YTD, but those who bought only at $20, or $18/$16/$14 and did nothing, did NOT participate in this 16% rally at all, did they? What I found with this drop in prices, is that I could correct losing positions faster, but not by sitting on the couch watching Survivor as those skills won't help you in the investment world [unless you're the show's winner, and even then you would have to know how to invest your winnings].

I probably didn't make much sense above as I'm writing very fast & probably have repeated myself, but what I'm saying is that the average person does not have unlimited funds to keep averaging down or up; the average investor does not do option trading [though this is so important to learn for risk management], etc., etc.

2. Sure, I agree, that people need to learn to cut their losses, but this needs to be done with smarts, too and not by simply selling low after having bought at higher prices. I was always against selling at a loss & was a big advocate for the DCA approach, until I learned that there are indeed various ways to cut one's losses, AND not only that, but that there were also ways to recover said losses, but again, you couldn't do the latter by being passive. 

3. I never say to learn from me, or to copy me, but hopefully it's making some people think that there is more than just one way to invest.


----------



## PuckiTwo (Oct 26, 2011)

dogcom said:


> 1. For traders pucki keep one thing in mind and that is T.gal has done very well after the destruction of 2009 so you don't know what will happen with her trading or holding when the bear comes back.
> 2. Also as I said before in this thread watch out when holding a losing position as seen with a solid company like RIM. In my experience cutting and dealing with the losers is number one in trading.
> 3. .......learn from you but they have to find their own way because of the emotions and moving parts that go on with trading.


1.+2. Dogcom thks. Most of our investments were implemented in 2009 and have done very well. It worries me a bit what happens if we have another desaster like 2009 because I don't have the knowledge yet to know what I should do. I can't judge if a company is in a permanent downward trend or if it loses due to certain temporary circumstances and will increase again when these circumstances have been removed. I don't hold RIM but it was clear because their demise was widely publicized but for other stks I sometimes have great problems to find timely information. 
3. Agree, everybody has to find their own way and make decisions which suit their particular make-up


----------



## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Your welcome pucki and I have never had a +2 before so thanks for that.

T.gal while I was paying more attention to the trading side I also mentioned holding. You left out was the when the bear comes back part mentioned above at number 1. 

So the idea is not to paint you as a trader or anything like that but to instead see the entire picture. If a terrible bear market appears it can wipe out all your gains and then some over the last number of years and ruin your trading as well. Of course this can happen to me and everyone else as well but there may be things that can be done to lessen the losses or even profit greatly if one is able to. DCA as you mentioned is one way to get through a terrible bear market as you buy more when the price continues to go down and this is probably done better holding an ETF so you don't get taken out by holding the wrong companies. 

Of course before the next bear market one should have a nice mix of stocks, bonds, cash and gold. Going into a bear market cash is king but it pays nothing while you wait for it and gets eaten away by inflation. So we must invest and find our way and trading can be a part of that but it takes a great deal of learning and trial and error to do so.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

*dogcom:* I just want to clarify that my comments were not directed at you specifically, but a general response to others [they know who they are].

I know very well what you mean about the return of the big bear, and given what has happened in the last few years, I think we are all more aware and hopefully better educated/prepared for the next one. For that precise reason, I'm being aggressive in the accumulation phase, especially given the valuation of certain companies and the fact that I don't need an income investment now. 

Last comment and then I'll exit this thread for good because I neither have the time to repeat myself, nor do I want to sound like a broken record, is that when you say that a bear will ruin my trades, I don't see it like that at all. 

- if trades allowed me to buy X number of shares for free, those shares won't disappear, no matter what, unless the companies went to $0, and even if they did, the loss for me would be $0 as well under such a scenario;

- then there are also the shares financed with dividends, which in certain cases & depending on time of investment, you would have gotten back your investment in dividend payments; 

- there are the dividends that some take as cash and spend and not necessarily drip;

- if you booked full or just a % of profits & used them to buy a new iPad/Mini-Cooper/vacation/charity, those trades won't disappear either.

I could go on, but I'm tired of talking.

Anyway, it's up to every individual investor to learn [I'm still learning plenty] and find the system that best works for their particular situation.

I'm out.


----------



## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

i dunno about anyone else...... but i like ur system:02.47-tranquillity:


----------



## Antlese (Jul 14, 2012)

I like your trading/investing process also T.gal. Enjoy reading your posts. Thanks for taking the time to write about your system here.


----------



## riseofamillionaire (Feb 23, 2012)

Patience and conviction is most important. And having the temperament to be patient and convicted. Its easy to say it, but hard to do. Finding a style that works for you is also important - based on your personality, time horizon, and amount of time you want to spend researching and learning. IMO, the best strategy is picking stocks (cheaper commissions than etfs) that are underfollowed/ under-appreciated with good fundamentals, and having a passive long term portfolio management style. Think like an owner, never buy a stock you wouldn't be happy owning the entire business. Trading and not knowing what you own is unsustainable over long periods of time for the majority of people. Time is on your side if you own good stocks/ businesses, best to be very patient and believe in what your doing. Learn from the best (Buffet, Lynch, Templeton, Ken Fisher, Ben Franklin) and read the classic investment books (Reminesences of a Stock Operator, Intelligent Investor). And listen to T.gals advice, never get over confident, never stop learning. Or The Great Humiliator (stock market) will get you eventually.


----------



## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

for pucki to

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...er-buys-600-000-hedge-before-earnings-1-.html

Is that guy really Sh#$$##%$ting his pants?
we will find out right?

here is the trade

http://tmx.quotemedia.com/options.php?qm_symbol=NYT:US&qm_page=29860


----------



## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Money is important but I agree with Suzy Orman regarding people first then money then things. The most important thing I think can be learned from T gal as well as some others on this site is the way she treats people & has stood up for some that have been bullied.


----------



## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

There are bullies everywhere--including on this forum. The anonymity of the internet has exacerbated the problem however, thankfully, society as a whole is becoming less tolerant of bullies.

In many cases, once a bully, always a bully. These people act superior but, deep down, have problems of their own. You can only become one of their victims if you allow yourself to.

Anyway, we all know which ones they are even if we don't know their real identity.


----------



## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Robert Prechtor could have been on to something regarding the higher degree of inclusion the higher the degree of the market top & the higher the degree of exclusion the higher the drgree of the market bottom. 

My friend Belguy I think is on to something in regards to not becoming one of thier victums.

Esteam is a basic physcological need & is inherant in everyone, it entails that one is commited to that which is good & true & able & worthy of living. Since esteam is a value judgement a standard must be used to gauge ones esteam. esteam efects all other value judgements & the standard one uses to gauge esteam is very important. Never use an irrational standard such as what a bully has to say in regarding esteam. Everyone gets to pick the standard they use. Since mans biological trait is reason. I use commitment of reason to gauge mine. 

Reason (judging by information provided by the senses)


----------



## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

thenegotiator said:


> for pucki to
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...er-buys-600-000-hedge-before-earnings-1-.html
> 
> ...





PuckiTwo said:


> *T.Gal,* many thks for sharing yr first investment experience, very educational as usual (I agree with Homerhomer! upthread) and thks to everybody else who gave advice, warned, etc. It is so great to get all your advice, concerns, warnings - this is an unbelievable forum.
> 
> Am well aware that T.Gal is also a trader beside an investor
> 
> ...



hey pucki.
so this option trade here was damn good was it not?
be carefulll out there.
the mkt is full of wolves:encouragement:

the boytoy from bloomberg is sH5^&^%$$#itting his pants now maybe?
actually 90% of the news IMO is bullshit.
10% is aok.

cheers anyway.


----------



## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Hi, negotiator

A lonewolf is safe, it is the pack that is dangerous. When I have a strong commitment to reason & think something is true & no one agrees with me I feel more confident that I have done some thinking & not memorizing.


----------

