# Lawyer messed up



## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Hey all, thought I would get your opinions / thoughts on this.

Sold my condo 3 months ago (closed May 1st or something like that). Anyways, today Lawyer says they forgot to pay someone that was part of the sale agreement.

They want me to send a cheque to cover the amount.

I asked them, why they didn't pay and they said "Sorry, we didn't notice it in the contract our mistake, please pay promptly."

So I called them and said this is not my problem, you closed the deal, gave me a cheque and ensured that the deal was done. I don't see how I the lay person is suppose to know that you did or did not pay someone as part of the final closing costs. You forgot to pay out the fee. Why am I paying a professional to do work I do not understand if you do not do it properly it is still my problem???

So far they insist I must pay it, I insist this is their problem now. I think I have a leg to stand on here, I paid them a professional fee to cover off the closing costs and close the deal as part of the legal contract. 

Either pay the fee or refund me your entire legal fee.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Many years ago. I bought a house in London. They had a second that was at an attractive rate, so I agreed to assume it. Upon closing, the rate listed on the second was much higher. I pointed this out to my lawyer and he agreed to make up the monthly difference since it was his error in failing to notice these details. I could have insisted that he pay to discharge the second but I gave him an easier path.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

So, what you are saying is you think I am correct here.

The fee in question is $971 the lawyer legal fee was $1007 so to me it's a wash anyways.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

See if your lawyers agreement contains the fine print e&oe - errors and omissions excepted. 
They are the lawyers - you are unlikely to win on this issue. 
If it is a fee due someone - interim taxes, utility transfer, whatever, you did owe it, so bite the bullet and discharge your obligations.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

I'll find out tomorrow what is going to happen, it is a charge that the buyer's agent slipped into the clause in a sneaky location, nobody but noticed it at all until the buyer pointed it out now. So the lawyer missed it. It's not simply a tax payment or something of the like.

If I have to pay it, then the law society will be getting a note about their practice, there is a reason you pay lawyers to do this work.

And they will be required to give me 90 days payment terms, I'm not just going to jump for their mistake.

I'd also like to note that I am truly fed up with real estate as a whole and glad I only have my personal home to deal with that I will hold onto for a long time now. The entire process is a huge scam put on by lawyers and agents to make money.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Ponderling said:


> See if your lawyers agreement contains the fine print e&oe - errors and omissions excepted.
> They are the lawyers - you are unlikely to win on this issue.
> If it is a fee due someone - interim taxes, utility transfer, whatever, you did owe it, so bite the bullet and discharge your obligations.


+1

You are the one who owes the money to the third party so there isn't much point in arguing with the lawyers. Ultimately they can say - this is what you owe to XYZ, if you choose not to pay them expect a call from their collection agency - it doesn't matter to us.

That said, you might be able to get a small discount on the lawyer fee for their mistake if you argue, so might be worth trying.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

So if they forgot to pay out the realtors and banks on closing (this was a closing fee by the way). Then I was handed a cheque and then 90 days later a collection agency came and said, hey you never paid the bank or realtors for that transaction... then that is okay?

If so I really question the need and work of the lawyer. This is their domain to ensure all fees are closed on the sale of the property, I paid them to do a job they did not do properly.

You guys sound like typical lie down and get eaten sheep canadians. It's their mistake not mine to pay out the closing costs. Am I suppose to sit there and work out all the numbers on the final cheque? Why bother paying a lawyer to do anything?

Next time I'm going to represent myself!


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

LOL - I completely understand how you feel, james. I've learned to ignore a lot of the posters on here. I agree with you about the scam that is RE. Why do you think crooked politicians keep getting re-elected? It's not because the majority of average citizens support their policies, it's because they've banked votes with developers and construction industry to tear down your grocery stores and close off your parking lots so they can erect more condo bldgs, which fuels these industries along with the RE industry and others. Note Clark from BC recently thanked the "condo kings" for her re-election. So much for democracy. Enjoy the new tower beside you and endless construction noise and hassle.

In this case, it's my opinion the lawyer should eat that cost and that you should NOT have to pay such a bill months after your closing date. Of course, you may have to secure the services of another lawyer to fight back on this. I suppose if you ignore lawyer A they'll send collections after you in the meantime.

It sucks man, I know.


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

Completely are with you james. Hope you are able to stick to your guns and win. Let us know how things turn out.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

I think the real question is whether the deal would have stopped or changed if you had been made aware of the charge? If not, then you should pay it. If it would have changed the deal then you shouldn't.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

I would have never agreed to the sale at the price with this charge. I sold at my absolute bottom plus some, did some math when the verbal offer was presented to me and agreed. This is why it makes me angrier as this was not on the table initially and then was slipped in with nobody noticing. I would have cancelled the deal.

If I illegitimately knew about this charge before hand it wouldn't be a big deal, it would have been calculated in all my costs and done. I would have paid it long ago.

They new owners bring it up now because they are trying to rent the place out for 3 months now with no action at a ridiculous price to cover their costs.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

jamesbe said:


> I would have never agreed to the sale at the price with this charge. I sold at my absolute bottom plus some, did some math when the verbal offer was presented to me and agreed. This is why it makes me angrier as this was not on the table initially and then was slipped in with nobody noticing. I would have cancelled the deal.


For the record, this is a completely different scenario than what you first described.

In your first post, you make it sound like the charge was legit (and you probably knew about it), but the lawyer forgot to pay it and paid that amount to you instead. Now you are talking something else.

I don't think I'll waste any more time on this thread...


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

It was snuck into the offer. It was there, just very well hidden. 

When the lawyer even says. "Yeah I see that there now, in an unrelated paragraph" Makes you wonder.


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## MRT (Apr 8, 2013)

Did you hire a real estate agent, or did you sell it yourself and just pay a commission to the buyer's agent?

Long story short, the agent deserves much more scorn than the lawyer, as it is inexcusable for an agent to miss a charge (especially for what they are being paid in comparison to your lawyer). 

If there is an agent, pursue it through them. If they refuse to help you, then you threaten to complain to the broker of record for their office (and do so). Failing satisfaction with the broker, you complain to the provincial body overseeing the industry (RECO in Ontario, if I recall). 

If you didn't use an agent, then your lawyer indeed deserves more blame as they should be thoroughly reviewing the contract with you PRIOR to signing. If they refuse to budge on helping you, you can threaten to contact the law society. Regardless of their reaction, no lawyer WANTS to hear from the law society.

I am not a lawyer, though worked in the business for quite some time, but it does seem that you are ultimately responsible. You signed a contract and apparently did not thoroughly read it. The clause may be in an unconventional location, but it is there and it should have been noted prior to signing. Having said that, while you may be ultimately responsible, you paid a lawyer (and an agent?) to represent your interests and they failed in this regard, and thus *should* be willing to 'make it right'.

good luck!


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Paid and agent and a lawyer. But after working with my agent (who is also the broker) I won't call him. He is a stubborn sod that will just say, not my problem... that's standard practice etc etc.

I'll talk to the lawyer tomorrow. Today he wasn't in, only the assistant.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

There is an issue with signing. When I caught the higher second mortgage rate, it was before I signed the final document for purchase. Had I signed it without noticing, I am not sure what would have happened. And the seller is normally responsible for any misrepresentation to his property.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

As boring as the paperwork is you really should read it all yourself and ask questions as you go if you do not understand anything.I do understand it is sneaky if the agent puts in a clause you will pay 6 month condo fees in the section which says they get to keep the shower curtain.End of day the lawyer will say you signed it so buck up and unfortunately the law is on them.Getting money out of the agent who didnt see the sneaky clause the other agent put in should be easier.


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## MRT (Apr 8, 2013)

jamesbe said:


> Paid and agent and a lawyer. But after working with my agent (who is also the broker) I won't call him. He is a stubborn sod that will just say, not my problem... that's standard practice etc etc.
> 
> I'll talk to the lawyer tomorrow. Today he wasn't in, only the assistant.


Then complain to the provincial regulatory body if the broker won't do anything. 

Your lawyer's screwup is more limited to missing the disbursement to the other party, whereas it is your agent/broker who missed advising you of the fee in the first place. They should have picked up on it and fought on your behalf to have it removed. Shoddy work.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The lawyer actually wouldn't know the intimate terms of the agreement. They accept the offer from the real estate agent and ensure the paperwork is in legal order and the land is legally transferred.

Your real estate agent would have been the one who should have disclosed any additions to the contract, and had both parties initial the changes.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

I partly agree.

But the clause states, should be paid on or before closing. So the lawyer should have looked up if the fee was paid before closing and if not held money to disperse it.

In the end I'll probably have to pay but there will be many rolled heads in the process, I'm not going to play dead on this one.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

When we bought our condo in Mexico, our agent caught an escalator clause that the bank had put in the contract (in Spanish) for trust fees. She told them to take it out. Had she not been diligent, we would have faced extra costs for 50 years. A good agent is worth every penny that you pay them in cases like this.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

What exactly was the clause in the sale agreement that wither was not pointed out to you by your agent nor seen that it was paid prior to closing by your agent?


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## canabiz (Apr 4, 2009)

James, the lawyer was not Ross Talarico, wasn't he?

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/busine...yer+over+real+estate+deals/8692971/story.html


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## Maybe Later (Feb 19, 2011)

Sounds like the lawyer's mistake was limited to not sending the cheque and I'd expect no more out of him or her if everything else has been finalized. If anything you and your agent and your lawyer were all fooled by the buyers agent. Of the three you could probably have expected the RE agent to have been the most likely to catch it, but a the end of the day anything you get from them will only be goodwill. If you already have a sour relationship, that seems unlikely. 

I'm from the camp that says you read everything yourself every time and ask for an explanation of anything you're uncertain of. 

I sincerely hope it wasn't a lot of money and I expect you won't let this happen to you again.


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## MoreMiles (Apr 20, 2011)

Most lawyer's templated contract includes an error correction clause. They reserve the right to correct any good faith error after the completion of a transaction. You cannot dispute it.

It's the same if a bank machine overpays you by $500, they can still demand to have it back despite it's their error. You may argue that you are a layperson so you have no knowledge of how an ATM works. You just take what you are given... but no sorry, an error is an error.

I bumped into a similar situation... the lawyer forgot to bill me for the utility meter set up fees when I bought a new condo. I got my cheque from the completion of trust account. Two months later, he sent me an invoice to correct that error. 

If you really want to waste time fighting for it, please make sure you read and understand all clauses in your legal paper.... that error correction privilege clause is probably written somewhere in black and white. If you are not sure, you can try to argue... but then you will still not likely win. Remember, what is not yours is simply not yours, like ATM cash error.


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

You want a win not a war. Their initial position is that you must pay. If it truly was their mistake they will know it and be willing to work to get it resolved satisfactorly. Even if it wasn't their mistake they will be embarrassed that it occurred. If the unpaid fee was 1000 tell them your prepared to work to resolve it but feel they must reduce their fee accordingly. Suggest you each pay 500. They want to get it resolved and not to have to go after you legally. There will be a point where they will say OK we'll pay so much and you pay so much. The job for you is not to refuse to pay anything but to determine how much they are willing to give to bring about a satisfactory result. If you stay at zero your asking for legal action against you. If you indicate a willingness to compromise at this stage any judge hearing the matter later will side with you provided its reasonable.... and the law firm knows that. Rarely does one side get 100% of the outcome they desire in any court hearing. If you get a few 100 dollars now off the bill and the matter is mutually concluded. That is a WIN!..... If they continued to say they want 1000 tell them to take you to court and re-iterate your offer to settle for half. They may counter at 800-900. Take some time and go back at 600 maybe you settle at 700. That's a win. You've made your point, kept some money and they got there $$$knuckle wacked by a client for being sloppy. Even with EO&E on the bill your in a position to negociate. Your worst case is 1000 their worse case is 1000, a mad client, a unsympathetic judge who thinks they did sloppy work and awards them your reasonable offer or worse. If they do work to resolve it with you and you both agree on the resolution don't continue to bad mouth them. SXXT happens sometimes and that's how these things get resolve.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

I haven't heard a peep from the lawyer in nearly 2 weeks now. So I assume they dealt with it. Eventually I'll contact them if they don't contact me, but no news is good news as far as I'm concerned.

If they still wanted me to pay up, you would think they would have contacted me somehow...


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## MoreMiles (Apr 20, 2011)

jamesbe said:


> I haven't heard a peep from the lawyer in nearly 2 weeks now. So I assume they dealt with it. Eventually I'll contact them if they don't contact me, but no news is good news as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> If they still wanted me to pay up, you would think they would have contacted me somehow...


Or they might have sold that debt directly to a collection agency? You may hear from one in a few months, with additional interest penalty added to that outstanding balance.

By the way, real estate lawyers and construction contractors have the ability to put their client's property on lien against outstanding debts. It's unfair but possible.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

LOL Considering I haven't talked to anyone about it, I'd very highly doubt it.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Well it took nearly 6 months! But my lawyer is doing the right thing and paying half. I think he should pay 1/3, me 1/3 and the other lawyer 1/3 but I'll go with half, it's not a huge amount and the issue is now closed.


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