# A/C..worth it or big rip off?



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

This weekend, I was sweating it out and running my air, but to no avail.
House just wasn't cooling down..86F! I was guzzlin' my 15 pack of commercial brew like there was no tomorrow to stay hydrated. 

Something had to be wrong..after all I had a tech come an top up the A/C unit
with 2lbs of Freon R22 (nice friendly CFC stuff that is banned now) in 2005.

Call the same tech. He comes over today and hooks up his guages and exclaims.."no wonder..there is NO pressure"..it's completely empty.

Calming my fears..with $$$$ signs spinning in the back of my head, I ask him
"what do you think caused that?"
"Oh: he exclaims..it could be a leak anywhere...evaporator/condensor..I'll
have to check each and if I can't find the leak..I'll bring over my nitrogen
tank tomorrow and we'll charge up this sucker to 550psi!"
Is that safe? I ask. Oh yes, he tells me..these babies are designed for 600psi
maximum and that will uncover the leak..if there is a hole somewhere
you will hear it!

Ok, I swallow..what is the minimum cost going to be? Oh $750 or $800.
What is the maximum cost to me.? I ask. Oh, well, that depends..if it's
the outside unit then you might as well replace the whole <expletive> thing.
These Lennox units are junk! I've had to replace some of them after 5 years.
How long have you had yours? 

"Fifteen years" I exclaim and this is the first year, that it hasn't worked at all. 

Well you are lucky then, you got that much time out of it..these days, if you *get 5 years *out of most of them, you are doing very well.

Ok, I ask him<gingerly>...how much to replace it completely if required?

$2450 should take care of it..he exclaims.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

Are you talking about central air? The one in my parents' house is almost 20 years old and it's still working great. They only turn it on when it's really hot tho. I guess if you turn it on in april and don't turn it off until october it won't last long.

Not sure I like central air anyways. For a single person, it seems like it would make more sense to just buy a 6000 btu window unit for $100 and put it in whichever room you spend the most time in rather than trying to cool the entire house.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

I don't really think about air conditioning until it gets over 27C in the house. Then I just retreat into the basement. Wold be nice to have AC but I'd probably just go with a $300 unit for the window.

I really wished I had air in my apartment though; that place was cooking from May through September.


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

I just have a portable unit that vents out the window (300ish from Canadian tire), I set it up in my bedroom...even still i think i used it less then 10 days last year. I just use fans for the most part. If I had ductwork in my house I'd get central A/C, all my bedrooms have ceiling fans in them ..and since i am right off the lake it usually cools down quite nicely at night. My basement seems to always stay a nice temperature but i have a dehumidifier down there which helps it feel a lot cooler.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Lennox units now a days are pieces of junk. They run off name now, their products are no longer manufactured like they once were. We had a Lennox a/c and furnace installed in our house, before I was aware enough to check things more thoroughly.

We had so much b.s. from their agent it was un-freakin-believable. I complained to Lennox as it was very clear their agent was trying to commit fraud. What did Lennox do? Nothing. Did not return my calls, my emails or my letters.

Never go with a Lennox, and never ever deal with Winnipeg Supply.

I believe the tech when he told you Lennox units are a pain in the you know what. I don't know what units are better, maybe none, perhaps they are all built to break/replace like so many other things we own are.


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## Financial Cents (Jul 22, 2010)

I agree with Addy, re: Lennox. 

I would get A/C. Comfort now, resale perk later. No brainer for me but everyone is different.

Just because you have it installed, doesn't mean you have to use it all the time.


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## Echo (Apr 1, 2011)

A/C is a must for us, my wife has MS and is affected by the summer heat. Unfortunately we are in a rental right now (no A/C) while we wait for our house to be built.

At the old place we installed A/C for $2500 cash. Called someone in the refrigeration business and he did it for us on the side. The commercial guys were quoting over $3k.

Because it's considered a medical expense for us we can claim 1/2 the cost of the A/C unit. We will do this again when we get into our new place later next month.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Addy said:


> *Lennox units now a days are pieces of junk*. They run off name now, their products are no longer manufactured like they once were. We had a Lennox a/c and furnace installed in our house, before I was aware enough to check things more thoroughly.


Well this is what I have and this is what the A/C guy that came back today to pressurize the leak told me. 

There is a very slow leak, but nothing obvious in the Condensor (the coil and fin thingy that sits outside).

Telltale signs: there was compressor oil on the bottom of the unit inside all around the condensor,and that is a sign that the thing is leaking (porous copper)..at least when the compressor is running.

While he could replace the condensor alone($1200), he doesn't recommend fixing an old R22 (CFC based system) because the source of that Freon is Dupont,
and there is only one source in NA, so the costs are doubling every 5 years on R22. 

He mentioned what a tank of that R22 goes for these days and it's several hundred dollars cost to him per tank these days. The gov't has strict control on manufacture of CFC based freon because of the environmental (ozone depletion issue).

Lennox used to have a good name but they were bought out by some US firm and according to my A/C service guy, who's been in the business for around 40 years..he's says *they've gone downhill in the last few years *in
reliabilty and longeviity of their systems.



> Never go with a Lennox, and never ever deal with Winnipeg Supply.


I'm getting a brand new Keeprite system ( 22 seer? more energy efficient) installed on friday.

He's changing everything including the copper plumbing. 
The Keeprite, (CFC free) which the A/C guy claims is still reasonable good quality..the other systems with their circuit boards break down (he claims) because the circuit boards can get fried due to hydro spikes..unnecessary
service calls just when you need the A/C the most. 

I'll bite the bullet since the original A/C unit came with the house, and since I have a bit saved up, better do it now..before some other expenses come along.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Echo said:


> Because it's considered a medical expense for us we can claim 1/2 the cost of the A/C unit. We will do this again when we get into our new place later next month.


How do you claim it as a medical expense? I am considered permanently
disabled and even though i'm still getting around with a cane/walker,
I have a lot of trouble with stairs. I had a used chair lift (2 actually) installed
last year and visit a neurologist twice a year for checkups on my legs.

I think I will be claiming the chair lift expense for my 2011 taxation year,
but wondering about the a/c unit as well?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I like central air. It isn't as noisy as some AC setups and gives balanced air through the house. The window AC unit setup is fine but makes a lot of racket and noise trying to cool the place down. Fans are good too. It largely depends on your setup. I have a cylindrical rotating fan that I really like, even has a remote control for those nights where it's a bit muggy but I don't want the AC racket.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

FYI, R-22 is not actually a CFC, it's an HCFC, which while still causing ozone depletion is much less potent than CFCs. CFCs are like teflon, they can last for decades in the atmosphere, whereas HCFCs are less stable and have a shorter lifetime.

The newer generation of CFC alternatives, called HFCs, pose no threat to the ozone layer when emitted through leaks etc, although they're powerful greenhouse gases; there's a newer generation still of alternatives that are climate-friendly as well as ozone-friendly while still remaining energy-efficient and effective at cooling. Some of these will be coming on the market in the very near future. The HFCs will eventually be phased out, but it'll be a gradual process.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't need A/C. I live in southwestern ontario and find it uncomfortable for about 4 weeks a year. I just don't see a need. The summer season is so short as it is.

A box fan in each bedroom is good enough for me, and the house is always around 75 degrees in the bed room.


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## Echo (Apr 1, 2011)

carverman said:


> How do you claim it as a medical expense?


I did this through our health spending account at work, it was easy and I got the money back right away.

If you claim it on your taxes, see the list of allowable medical expense deducations here:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/...ng/ddctns/lns300-350/330/llwxpns-eng.html#air

Either way, you'll need a prescription.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Echo said:


> I did this through our health spending account at work, it was easy and I got the money back right away.
> 
> If you claim it on your taxes, see the list of allowable medical expense deducations here:
> 
> [Either way, you'll need a prescription.


Well, I don't have a chronic respiratory problem, so I doubt that I can get
my rehab doctor to write me a prescription for that..besides the CRA guidelines indicate the lesser of $1000 or 50%. My central air will be around
$2700.

As far as the chair lifts. I could get a prescription for them, but the rehab
doctor would have to date it for this year, the receipt for installation is
from last fall..so I guess I am out of luck on both counts, it seems.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I don't think you need to buy the 22 seer ,for what we use A/C in Ontario it will take you 100 years to pay for the upgrade.I would go with 13/14 seer and you will be fine.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

marina628 said:


> I don't think you need to buy the 22 seer ,for what we use A/C in Ontario it will take you 100 years to pay for the upgrade.I would go with 13/14 seer and you will be fine.


Well, I don't have 100 years left..maybe 20?, so I'm
not going to worry about payback..I'm more interested
in comfort on those hot humid days..I have ceiling fans
and most of the time, they do an adequate job as long
as it's not 90 degrees outside.

In spite of my knowledge of most electrical things and "seat of the pants" knowledge of other technical things..A/C is one area, I don't know anything
about except how to turn it on when it's hot.

<quote from internet source>

SEER = [Total Cooling Output Over the Cooling Season] / [Total Electrical Energy Input Over the Cooling Season]

Higher air conditioning SEER rating means more efficient, or in other words lower energy cost to cool the building. Older air conditioning systems are likely to have a lower SEER (perhaps 5 or 6) than a newer more efficient system (perhaps SEER=10). But beyond comparing SEER ratings, a look at the building insulation, air leakage, and the layout, insulation, and adequacy of the air conditioning duct system are likely to have a very large, usually determining effect, on the operating cost of air conditioning systems in buildings. 

<endquote>

Well the Keeprite system he is installing looks about 50% more capacity than the old Lennox system. 
The "A" coils (evaporator inside the furnace) has
3 sections of tubing vs the old system with 2 sections ..(I'm looking at it from the observer end of course..what do I know ) and these "capillary tubes"..which he mentioned something about.

He's telling me that the cooling power (seer) is about 50% more with the new system, so that means getting the house cooler faster..and saving the amount of time the A/C system runs..which should save power.

I thought I heard him mention "seer around 22", on what he was going to provide for me, but I will ask him tomorrow when he comes to solder the new copper tubing and fill it up with R410A.

According to him, this is one of the better units and he just happened to have one in his stock. I dunno..I trust him..because he's an old crusty guy and an independent repairman/installer. He likes to work alone and talk about stories from his past, so it can be entertaining at times.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

crazyjackcsa said:


> I don't need A/C. I live in southwestern ontario and find it uncomfortable for about 4 weeks a year. I just don't see a need. The summer season is so short as it is.
> 
> A box fan in each bedroom is good enough for me, and the house is always around 75 degrees in the bed room.


You must live in a breezy area. Last sunday we had a heat wave in Ottawa and the daytime temp in my house upstairs was 86F...I just can't function in that kind of heat/humidity.

I had the old a/c running but it lost all it's freon, so it
wasn't cooling anything...even with 2 ceiling fans and a floor fan going full blast, my brain was starting to melt down..until the evening when I could open a few windows it was comfortable.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Day time can hit 85 easy and when I get up at 7 in the morning, it's probably about 70 on all but the hottest nights. I do get a pretty good breeze off of Lake Erie, but it's the fact we have windows on two walls in most rooms that really helps.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Marina...

looks like he is installing a SEER 13.5 in my place. 

According to the Energuide sticker it comes with , it is supposed to be a Seer 13.0.

So I don't know what he was talking about "seer 22"..I guess it flew by me too fast and I thought that's what he was planning on putting in.

The sticker indicates a relative guide of 10.9 (least efficient) all the way up to 23.0 (Most efficicient) 

and this one ....at least the "A" coil part, is rated at 13.0 
I only have about 900 square feet upstairs to cool.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

we run the ceiling fans with the A/C best comfort IMO. Yeah my husband said 22 seer if Keeprite had them would likely be about 7k so he thought something wrong with that .I can't live without my A/C looks like going to be a hot week here.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

carverman said:


> I was guzzlin' my 15 pack of commercial brew like there was no tomorrow to stay hydrated.


Carverman..Don't drink beer to stay hydrated. The alcohol in beer acts as a diuretic..which causes increased urination, which causes increased thirst. drink water. (Don't get me wrong..I like a nice cold beer - just don't drink it to stay hydrated


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

My building uses positive pressure ventilation (fresh air comes in from the roof through the hallways and gets recyled through return ducts or pushed out through doors and windows). I have two heat pumps with fan units that pretty much run 24/7, but heating or cooling only kick in if temperatures rise or drop below the threshold set on my thermostat (23C).

A new heat pump cost around $3000 a piece. Labour costs $1000-$2000 depending who you ask. They're supposed to last at least 10 years with no maintenance except $15 air filter replacement once every 3 months... If we had to replace a heat pump, is it worth the cost? Depends where you live. Here, on a hot day with direct sunlight the indoor air temperature shoots up over 40C, so I would say yes.. at any cost...


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

dubmac said:


> Carverman..*Don't drink beer to stay hydrated. The alcohol in beer acts as a diuretic..*which causes increased urination, which causes increased thirst. drink water. (


This sounds like the old "Peanuts" cartoon show..where Charlie Brown is listening to his teacher talking to him with that "waa-waa-waa-waa trombone sound" voice.

"Carverman..don't drink beer to stay hydrated...." waa-waa-waa-waa!"

Carverman: Yes "ma'm"...I didn't do my homework..because I was drinking beer instead
...sorry ma'm, but I just made a batch of 6 cases of Rikards Red at the Perth Brewing Club....
and I just can't stop ....<guzzle..guzzle>...
excuse me..I'll be right back....hee-hee!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

marina628 said:


> we run the ceiling fans with the A/C best comfort IMO. Yeah my husband said 22 seer if Keeprite had them would likely be about 7k so he thought something wrong with that .I can't live without my A/C looks like going to be a hot week here.


Ah!..the A/C is running and it feels so nice!..and so does some 
of my freshly canned Rikards Red..this weekend is going to be a
much better weekend.

The A/C system is rated at 13.5 Seer. I talked to him yesterday..
and he showed me the panel with all the specs on it. 
I said, "yes but I read all that "stuff" earlier and I didn't see the 
term "seer" on the panel". 

He kinda looks at me (as if I'm stupid in reading this techno babble, which I am), and points to a number.. "see it's 13.5"..and I'm giving
you a better evaporator unit besides...with more coil 
in it, so you will get an additional 33% (??more btu) better cooling power over what the regular evaporator would be"..

I don't know all the HVAC techno babble..
but I thought he said seer 22 the other day, 
maybe I need my hearing checked these days...

"ok", I say "sheepishly"...thankyou for the the extra capacity. 
He's a nice guy, but he can be rather crusty at times.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

ddkay said:


> They're supposed to last at least 10 years with no maintenance except $15 air filter replacement once every 3 months... If we had to replace a heat pump, is it worth the cost? Depends where you live. Here, on a hot day with direct sunlight the indoor air temperature shoots up over 40C, so I would say yes.. at any cost...


What happens after 10 years? They should last a while longer than that.
In Ontario, if you count the days of high temperature and humidity..
June to August,out of those 92 days, there is about 10 days per month 
(30 days over the entire summer) that are so hot or humid,
they would require A/C. 

In a typical A/C installation, over 10 years, that about $3000 
divided by 300 days of use, or about $10 per day of use,
if you want to look it at that way. Add the electricity cost to it
at 10.9 kwh for 8 hrs and it's closer to about $12 per day of use.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

I don't know what happens after 10 years. One original unit of ours actually did break down after 20 years and had to be replaced. There's no way to know for sure how long these new ones last, but for budget purposes 20 years is considered the maximum life expectancy for equipment in my building. Like I said though it does get unbearably hot in here (40C+). The air flow is very similar to that of an office building (very few windows can open) and the windows are floor to ceiling in every room with direct sunlight most of the day. My family and I would rather pay 10 bucks a day than swelter.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

make sure you cover it at end of season as leaves etc can get inside and do damage if you just leave it uncovered.Glad it is working well .


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

I always cover mine, as soon as the hot humid days are over in early sept.

I have a huge maple in the back yard and another Norway in the front yard
that drop keys and leaves and small branches), so it would plug up over a
couple of seasons if it wasn't covered.

Trees...ya gotta love them though. They help us with the environment and
provide home for birds and squirrels.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

ddkay said:


> for budget purposes 20 years is considered the maximum life expectancy for equipment in my building.


Well that's what I used to think..and I'm trying to squeeze 20 years of service out of my mid-efficiency
gas furnace (Miller). It was installed in '95, so now it's going into it's 16th winter season and still trouble free
..except for one incident a few years ago where the furnace fan stopped running.

I did my own troubleshooting on that..and discovered that the "intelligent" circuit control board (White-Rodgers) had a design flaw in it.
The fan motor (500watts) was dependent on a printed circuit track from the wired connector from it to the circuit board fan relay.
This very thin circuit track had opened up because the solder overheated at the connector and opened the connection. 

Being frugal and refusing to pay $200+ or so for a new circuit board and a service call for another circuit board that could have the same problem, I just took it out and soldered a piece of copper wire over the track.
It has worked well every since.

I don't have a maintenance plan on it..
refuse to pay $100+ for "nothing",
because there is nothing to clean on a gas furnace ..except filter or emergency parts. 

I also have a gas fireplace that doubles as a heat source and a radiant portable heater, so even if my 15+ year old furnace did break down in the dead of winter, the cat or the water pipes wouldn't freeze before I got it repaired because I'm not away more than a few hours.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

20 years...bah, I've personally seen oil boilers from the 1920's in two rental properties. 

Still chugging along but I wouldn't want to pay the bill lol


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

getting a new Carrier furnace/heat pump/ AC system put in next week at the cottage. Old one is 22 years old and starting to act up. Really important the het works up here otherwise the pipes will freeze in the winter. Top priced unit through Costco. About $14k all in.


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## lister (Apr 3, 2009)

Back in the old bachelor apartment I went several years without A/C relying on fans to get me sleeping through the night. I eventually bought a portable combo A/C, heater, dehumidifier unit that vented outside. I mostly used it at night so I could sleep.

Now in the condo I have central air. I prefer it to the window and portable units. It usually only gets turned on at night but on the really hot days when we're inside for some strange reason we'll have it going.

For a good night's sleep A/C is definitely worth it for me.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Square Root said:


> getting a new Carrier furnace/heat pump/ AC system put in *next week at the cottage*. Old one is 22 years old and starting to act up. Really important the heat works up here otherwise the pipes will freeze in the winter. Top priced unit through Costco. About $14k all in.


Yow! $14K for a heat/cool system for the cottage? Are you using it 
year round? I would be winterizing and draining the water pipes if it
were mine. From what my A/C guy told me about Carrier..better get a
maintenance plan for it...the new ones may not last 20 years.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I think A/C is a huge waste of energy and the environment. It's why you have ridiculous energy price increases - the infrastructure has to be built to support the peak demand. No one uses central A/C in Germany and it's one of the stereotypes they have of Cdns/Americans (A/C obsessed) People say they need A/C because the sun heats up the building, this is poor design. In Germany the walls are insulated better and the windows are shaded with programmable solid shutters or blinds that reflects the suns heat. Many houses use geothermal to efficiently cool the floor with the ground. I wonder why more Canadians don't do this? Probably the same reason we don't embrace diesel engines? Takes too much profit out of someone's pocket?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> No one uses central A/C in Germany and it's one of the stereotypes they have of Cdns/Americans (A/C obsessed) People say they need A/C because the sun heats up the building, this is poor design.


Yes,it is poor design based on American construction standards. The older buildings are mostly 2x4 construction (mine is) and the bare minimum of
insulation at that. Consequences are higher heating costs in the winter and higher cooling costs in the summer..you can't win either way.

If they built them out of concrete like the European's do, the heating/cooling costs might be reduced, but then it would cost a fortune because of the different construction methods. 
The better construction methods here are the R-2000 homes, but these are custom built at higher costs..the rest of the ticky-tacky they sell now..is put up as fast as they can to maximize profits. 



> In Germany the walls are insulated better and the windows are shaded with programmable solid shutters or blinds that reflects the suns heat.


But the windows have to be designed with these shutters or blinds in mind.
In NA, everyone wants larger picture windows and that allows more heating in the summer and more heat escaping in the winter..it's more to do with
lifestyles..if people didn't buy them..builders would not build them that way. 



> Many houses use geothermal to efficiently cool the floor with the ground. I wonder why more Canadians don't do this? Probably the same reason we don't embrace diesel engines? Takes too much profit out of someone's pocket?


Costs too much to do it in Canada. Forced air gas/propane or electric/fuel oil (where the gas is not available) is the heating of choice and pretty much most A/C is electric.

Diesel engines cost more to buy here , and the N/A
ones are (or were) very noisy. Most people, (at least until the current gas increases hit), were still buying and driving big SUVs..with gas engines because the dealers
were pushing them on buyers with all sorts of incentives
to buy. 

Detroit was pumping them out at high volume and only recently are they starting to examine better fuel economy..because they fear their sales will
be impacted because of the rising price of gas.
Electric vehicles..well maybe in the next few years,
but there will be startup issues with those.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

carverman said:


> Yow! $14K for a heat/cool system for the cottage? Are you using it
> year round? I would be winterizing and draining the water pipes if it
> were mine. From what my A/C guy told me about Carrier..better get a
> maintenance plan for it...the new ones may not last 20 years.


We use it throughout the year. Too difficult to drain. Agree it's very expensive.


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Today we have turned on the a/c probably the first time this year, rarely use it but for those few times when it gets really hot in southern ontario I am happy I have it.

On the other with energy efficient well insulated homes one can make an argument a/c would never be needed in our climate.

My neighbours on the other hand run it 24/7 for few months of the year, not sure why and I can imagine their bills are pretty high ;-)


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

carverman said:


> Yes,it is poor design based on American construction standards. The older buildings are mostly 2x4 construction (mine is) and the bare minimum of
> insulation at that. Consequences are higher heating costs in the winter and higher cooling costs in the summer..you can't win either way.
> 
> If they built them out of concrete like the European's do, the heating/cooling costs might be reduced, but then it would cost a fortune because of the different construction methods.
> The better construction methods here are the R-2000 homes, but these are custom built at higher costs..the rest of the ticky-tacky they sell now..is put up as fast as they can to maximize profits.


So let me get this straight.. we pay $1,000,000 for 2x4's and poor design. Location, location, location? Is that really all that matters? If you're going to pay so damned much, why not build it right. It's not like Canada is a hot climate. Spending a little more can save a fortune in the long run. Just look at the cost of replacing a cheap roof



carverman said:


> But the windows have to be designed with these shutters or blinds in mind.
> In NA, everyone wants larger picture windows and that allows more heating in the summer and more heat escaping in the winter..it's more to do with
> lifestyles..if people didn't buy them..builders would not build them that way.


The size of the windows is not a problem for these blinds, I have just as many if not more windows and the house still stays cool (and yes, Germany gets sun just like Canada). The shutters on are the outside and are function to block heat/light and protect windows the the case of hurricane or occasional Vancouver riot. They only make perfect sense and come on it's a shutter, not carbon fiber or something. The windows are much better designed as well, but that's not necessarily climate control. I leave the blinds at 90 degrees and it keeps the house cool while I can see out perfectly fine. It's not uncommon in Germany to see windows completely shut during the day to keep the heat out depending how much sun they get. It's that simple












carverman said:


> Costs too much to do it in Canada. Forced air gas/propane or electric/fuel oil (where the gas is not available) is the heating of choice and pretty much most A/C is electric.
> 
> Diesel engines cost more to buy here , and the N/A
> ones are (or were) very noisy. Most people, (at least until the current gas increases hit), were still buying and driving big SUVs..with gas engines because the dealers
> ...


The initial cost for geothermal is more, but then you have a floor cooled by the ground for practically nothing.. Diesel cars are no longer noisy at all, you can barely tell they're diesel, besides when you realize you don't have to fill up for 1500kms. Electric vehicles are pointless at this stage. Batteries don't like Cdn winters and the effort to mine/ship/produce the batteries is worse than oil. New diesels work fine in the cold


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> New diesels work fine in the cold


We rente a diesel Peugeot in Spain. It was a standard and never stalled. Very quiet. I think the higher prices of gas for decades have just changed the mindset of Europeans.

Outside shutters are left over from the war, but I agree that they are a good solution now. Driving through a shuttered town at night takes getting used too because you need to use headlights.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

kcowan said:


> Outside shutters are left over from the war, but I agree that they are a good solution now.


In France pretty much everyone uses shutters at night and during hot days, although in modern or renovated houses they are inside the window rather than outside. They can be electrically operated or manually. We have a lot of visitors from France and our lack of shutters is always the first thing they remark on, and they have a hard time sleeping at night because it's lighter than they're used to, even with the curtains drawn.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I love the shutters. If I work I night shift I can make it perfectly dark to sleep or if sun is hot or hitting the TV I can fix it. I have transparent "shutters" on the inside but I've only seen shutters on the outside. I figured being on the outside must reflect the heat, whereas our curtains still let the heat in. The electronic ones can be programmed to follow the sun and to appear as if you are home. If they had shutters in Vancouver it would have saved a fortune


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Actually I think they're outside the window in France as well, I was misremembering. The mechanism to raise or lower them is inside...my girlfriend's parents house uses a sort of mechanical device that you rotate to raise or lower them, but they have electric shutters in the front of the house. I love those too and have thought about getting them installed in our house....at least for upstairs where it gets really hot in summer. I work at home and my office is 32 C right now and it's only 10:30am.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Wouldn't shutters impede airflow? Are these solid shutters or just angled slats that allow ambient light in but not direct sunlight?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> So let me get this straight.. we pay $1,000,000 for 2x4's and poor design. Location, location, location? Is that really all that matters?


yes, in most cases, as market value of the home depends on location.
I live in an area of Ottawa (40 year old development) that was built by a builder that everyone knows who originally bought here paid off the township inspectors! Down my street there is a hill on a curve and they
allowed the street to pass through an intersection (my street) where if you turn left at the bottom of the
blind hill, you run the risk of being t-boned by
cars/busses coming over the crest of the blind hill! 

This is stupid road design. They used aluminum wiring 
(I still have it in my house, flat roofs) and cheap 2x4 construction and cheap insulation! However, after being
left almost penniless by a bad divorce settlement, I was glad to get anything that I could call my own..rather than rent a crappy cheaply built apt where I could hear the neighbours kids screaming through the walls.

[/quote]
If you're going to pay so damned much, why not build it right. It's not like Canada is a hot climate. Spending a little more can save a fortune in the long run. Just look at the cost of replacing a cheap roof /quote]

Things are done differently here than in Europe. Although there are nice subdivisions (depending on 
the reputation of the builder) most are put up
practically overnight from prefab roof trusses, and in some cases factory built subcomponents.
That's the way it is here. The cities, greedy
for tax revenue allow multi-unit housing where you barely have a back patio for the bbq...greed.profit and tax revenue. 




> It's not uncommon in Germany to see windows completely shut during the day to keep the heat out depending how much sun they get.


In southern/eastern ontario, it's not the temperatures so much but the days of high humidity that make a 28C day feel like 42C... that is the issue.





> Electric vehicles are pointless at this stage. Batteries don't like Cdn winters and the effort to mine/ship/produce the batteries is worse than oil.


Well it's an interesting mindset here...everyones subscribing to the "green bandwagon"..including GM..
who almost went under a couple of years
ago..desperate to keep churning out production, they have to come up with some new innovation and the GM Volt is their answer..with expensive lithium battery packs. 

As you mentioned lithium mine sources are only in certain parts of the world..China being a big producer and Chile I believe.

These will be expensive for the owners in many ways. Not only the cost of the cars to purchase initially, but the cost of replacing the batteries and they are still dependent on gas stations for the hybrid cars for
the charging engine.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

brad said:


> Actually I think they're outside the window in France as well, I was misremembering. The mechanism to raise or lower them is inside...my girlfriend's parents house uses a sort of mechanical device that you rotate to raise or lower them, but they have electric shutters in the front of the house. I love those too and have thought about getting them installed in our house....at least for upstairs where it gets really hot in summer. I work at home and my office is 32 C right now and it's only 10:30am.


Yes there are either straps on the inside or a mechanical twist style for the shutters that come down on the outside. The slats or whatever they're called on the front of the house can either be mechanical or electric as well.



andrewf said:


> Wouldn't shutters impede airflow? Are these solid shutters or just angled slats that allow ambient light in but not direct sunlight?


You can have both. I have solid shutters around the house and angled slats on the front. The slats still let in light in and I can see fine but you can control the amount of light that gets in. For airflow the windows and doors are all double hinged to open from the top or the side in every Euro building I've seen. You get airflow from a shaded window etc



















All the N-Americans love these windows. We find it odd however that they don't use bug screens and they clean their windows at least weekly (and it annoys them when we don't)


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

carverman said:


> Well it's an interesting mindset here...everyones subscribing to the "green bandwagon" here..including GM..who almost went under a couple of years ago..in order to keep churning out production, they have to come up with some new innovation and the GM Volt is their answer..with expensive lithium battery packs. As you mentioned lithium mine sources are only in certain parts of the world..China being a big producer and Chile I believe. These will be expensive for the owners in many ways.


Exactly. The lithium is mined in Canada, shipped to China to become a battery, and shipped to GM to make the Volt. By this time the carbon footprint is bigger than a Hummer's entire lifetime and it costs more than a Hummer as well. Ethanol is no better really. I love diesel though

I'm sure I will buy a 2x4 house and an A/C when I get home, it just annoys me.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> lithium , shipped to China to become a battery, and shipped to GM to make the Volt.


see new thread. Keep this one on house cooling.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

The apparent outdoor temperature here tomorrow is supposed to be 48C! Stay hydrated, stay somewhere cool, and check on your neighbours especially the elderly. This is such harsh weather.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

ddkay said:


> The apparent outdoor temperature here tomorrow is supposed to be 48C! Stay hydrated, stay somewhere cool, and *check on your neighbours especially the elderly*. This is such harsh weather.


Surely you jest? 48C?..where do you live..in the middle of the Arizona desert?
Ok, maybe with the humdidity. 

Ottawa is a balmy 28 right now with predicted 35C in the afternoon, followed by some thunderstorms which will cool things off down to 22C again.

I guess we forget that we have 2 or 3 of these heat waves each summer and although it's hot..you can find ways to stay cool....glad that I decided to bite the bullet and spend almost 3k on mine a couple of weeks ago.

Now whos going to check on me? 
I'm considered elderly now too since I'm in my last 20% of male life expectancy according to statistics.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

carverman said:


> Surely you jest? 48C?..where do you live..in the middle of the Arizona desert?
> Ok, maybe with the humidity.


I presume that's what ddkay meant by "apparent outdoor temperature" - the humidex rating. Forecast humidex for Ottawa today is 45. Anyone still feel that A/C is a waste of money?


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> ... No one uses central A/C in Germany and it's one of the stereotypes they have of Cdns/Americans (A/C obsessed) People say they need A/C because the sun heats up the building, this is poor design. In Germany the walls are insulated better and the windows are shaded with programmable solid shutters or blinds that reflects the suns heat. ....


And in the heat waves Europe has had in recent years people have been dying in droves for lack of air conditioning. 

Germany ordinarily has a more temperate climate, where it doesn't get as hot as central Canada. The window shutters (which are a wondeful idea) are more for conserving heat in winter, as well as privacy and security, rather than solar shading, . But Europeans do design their buildings much better for solar shading than we do. I would dispute that Germany's buildings are "better insulated". They have a much greater thermal mass due to the amount masonry used, but I think the R factors for their building envelope are lower than ours because it doesn't get nearly as cold. 

One of the problems with adopting the exterior roller blinds here is the air leakage through the mechanical operating mechanism from interior to exterior in winter


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Not only that but we seem obsessed with windows here. At work, everyone wants the window seat (even if it turns their computer screen black and makes them squint). At home, large windows seem a selling features of houses and condos.

The key is to close the blinds BEFORE the sun starts coming in. I face east and before I leave in the very early morning I always shut all blinds. When I come home at the end of the day, at least I don't enter a sauna.

Most people get offended that I do this! "Keep the blinds open, it's summer, I love the sun!"

Maybe that's why we're so dependent on AC.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Yea those are good points

We did get a heat wave here this summer and all I can say is the concrete homes felt like concrete basements. The locals told me to angle my shutters to reflect the sun and it worked wonderfully, while still letting light in and air in if you desired

I still think electrical shutters (with no air leak) would be smart in Canada. I didn't hear about Europeans dying from heat but I wonder how many homeless Canadians die in the cold?

Fact is we have an amazing ability to adapt to different climate but using A/C prevents that and only makes it feel hotter outside. I find the biggest whiners are the people who don't do anything outside (both summer and winter)




OhGreatGuru said:


> And in the heat waves Europe has had in recent years people have been dying in droves for lack of air conditioning.
> 
> Germany ordinarily has a more temperate climate, where it doesn't get as hot as central Canada. The window shutters (which are a wondeful idea) are more for conserving heat in winter, as well as privacy and security, rather than solar shading, . But Europeans do design their buildings much better for solar shading than we do. I would dispute that Germany's buildings are "better insulated". They have a much greater thermal mass due to the amount masonry used, but I think the R factors for their building envelope are lower than ours because it doesn't get nearly as cold.
> 
> One of the problems with adopting the exterior roller blinds here is the air leakage through the mechanical operating mechanism from interior to exterior in winter


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> Most people get offended that I do this! "Keep the blinds open, it's summer, I love the sun!"
> 
> Maybe that's why we're so dependent on AC.


I worked in Manila and KL for a number of years. The executive offices had wonderful views of the cities and the blinds were always closed.

Even the high end restaurants had beautiful outdoor views from behind glass in the comfort of AC.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> I didn't hear about Europeans dying from heat


Maybe not so much in Germany, but every few years in France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_European_heat_wave


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

The air system we had installed at the cottage is working great. Really appreciate it in this heat wave.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

With the temperature out there today you can make some extra beer money by inviting people over to share your new A/C carver lol.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

marina628 said:


> With the temperature out there today you can make some extra beer money by inviting people over to share your new A/C carver lol.


I was hesitant about installing a complete new system, but today, I can say that my new 13.5 seer A/C system is working like a charm. 
Got the thermostat set to 78F and a 3 ceiling fans running + a floor fan...doesn't have to be really cold, just enough to take the edge off and the humidity. 
Today I'm not worried about frugality/saving power..I just want to be comfortable...
snap! ah!..that Rikards Red goes down easy. 
My cat likes it too..she's sleeping in comfort.

Here's to my CMF friends!..
<Carver: tosses a virtual cold one to everyone>...
ha!..I get to drink the real ones!

However, this month's been a bit of a financial hit for me, first A/C, then cat getting sick ($800 in vet bills), and I had to put about $2000 repairs into my truck...but as they say..
some things are priceless.. and for everything else there is MC..which I've used a lot this month!


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> ...
> I still think electrical shutters (with no air leak) would be smart in Canada. I didn't hear about Europeans dying from heat but I wonder how many homeless Canadians die in the cold?
> 
> ...


But powered shutters are one more electro-mechanical gizmo to maintain and repair. And presumably if you lose power ( a common occurrence in our climate) you have to go outside and wind them by hand crank somehow.

See 2003 heat wave http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_European_heat_wave
Variously reported as 35,000, 40,000, or 50,000 deaths. (There seems to be ongoing debate over how many can truly be atributed to the heat wave.)

2007 heat wave http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jul/25/weather.travelnews Mosltly southern Europe & Balkans, also Hungary and Ukraine

Summer of 2010 - Russia, Ukraine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Russian_wildfires Russia reports 56,000 deaths due to smog or heat (huge forest fire problems).

Having said all that, it is true that most Canadian housing is not well designed for passive cooling (nor for solar gain in winter) The emphasis has been on increasing the R-rating & air tightness of the envelope, and improving the efficiency of our furnaces, mostly for winter heating reasons. The way our tract housing is designed, no builder wants to take the time & money to custom design the structure to optimize solar shading and attic ventilation in the summer, and maximize solar gain in the winter.


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## Financial Cents (Jul 22, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> I presume that's what ddkay meant by "apparent outdoor temperature" - the humidex rating. Forecast humidex for Ottawa today is 45. Anyone still feel that A/C is a waste of money?


I love my A/C. Anything over 25 Deg. C., the A/C is on in our house. 

I guess the 47 Deg. C. with the humidity today in Ottawa qualifies


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

My car was reading 41C on the way home today. Nuts.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Our friends McGuinty, Duncan & Co. are the only ones enjoying this.
You can almost picture them sitting in their large, air-conditioned corner offices rubbing their hands in glee, as the TOU rates, Debt Retirement Charge, 13% HST etc. pile on and generate thumping profits for them.

If they were a corporation, they will have analyst beating Q3.
Big raises for the CEO, CFO, etc....oh wait, they already did that.

But this was the plan from the begining...Environment Canada has been predicting this type of weather for 2 - 3 years now (albeit couched in evasive, high level terms).


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

@ the electricity conspiracy.

I didn't know Environment Canada had a 36 month forecast. Are you talking about climate change or something? We shouldn't confuse weather with climate.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

andrewf said:


> I didn't know Environment Canada had a 36 month forecast. Are you talking about climate change or something? We shouldn't confuse weather with climate.


I recall Environment Canada saying last year that the next year or so will see near record or even record breaking temperatures.
And for sure early this spring (when everyone was whining about the rain) they warned of an unusually hot and dry summer.
It was a pretty safe bet on the part of the prov. govt. that hydro useage will increase substantially.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I'm very skeptical of hot and dry/cold and wet summer predictions. Flip a coin and you're probably not much worse than the forecasters. 

Forecasting is hard, especially on that time scale. All the have to go on are things like La Nina/El Nino and other ocean temperature dynamics. You can't predict the configuration of the jet stream, and that has a huge impact on weather.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

Worth every single penny this past week. 

carver: Glad the new system is working well. Hopefully that's the last time you have to go through that.

And hope your cat is feeling better after the vet visit.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

I've been thinking about this topic a fair bit over the last few days, and I have to admit, I'm still not sold on the AC.

I live Southwestern Ontario, and I still heat my house 7-8 months a year. Allow for 2 temperate months a year and that means I'm cooling 2-3 months a year. (Really just July and August) 

So can I justify the cost? You figure 3k for the installation plus the cost of running the AC ( napkin calc: $500 for two months) 

I can't justify it. The kids and I retreat to the basement (where the TV is anyway). In the high heat of the day, and fire up a half dozen box fans at night.

And even in this heat, our house hasn't gone past 30C during the day, and drops down to 26 every night. That's pretty good for sleeping.

My cost is $180 for the fans, and about $50 a year for the Hydro.

It just isn't worth it. Not for how short the season is in Canada.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Most of the world lives in much hotter atmosphere their entire lives. Humans wear full armour in the dessert and they don't melt either. If you have A/C in your car, at work, and in the mall and you spend next to zero time outside - yes you will sweat as soon as you feel some heat. If you see an American who lives in A/C beside an African in 40c, one is sweating profusely and guzzling water and the other seems perfectly fine with the heat

The body actually adapts very quickly. I spend a lot of time outside and the first few cold days of the season is quite painful and then it's fine. This is confirmed by going skiing or training with people who've lived indoors. Turning on the A/C is like turning on a light at night and your night vision or tolerance to heat is gone - it's not just taking the edge off it's a complete opposite. Then you're incapable of enjoying any time outside


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

crazyjackcsa said:


> I've been thinking about this topic a fair bit over the last few days, and I have to admit, I'm still not sold on the AC.
> 
> So can I justify the cost? You figure 3k for the installation plus the cost of running the AC ( napkin calc: $500 for two months)


If you haven't had it and don't miss it then it's a moot point. Yes, it is considered a luxury in Canada, where we are concerned with -10 to -20c temps 3-4 months of the year as well. Heating costs money too because
the alternative is freezing to death. 

You can live without A/C between June-August, and sometimes there is the odd day in early September
too, depending on the weather patterns, but for those heat wave days with high humidity, it is nice to take that uncomfortable edge off by setting the thermostat higher (I set mine to 79F (26C) for A/C and running a few ceiling fans move enough air around that it's definitely
a lot more comfortable in the house than outside..where you break into a sweat, just moving. 
Being a senior, it's even more important if you have any respiratory problems, or end up with heat stroke. 

Perhaps your napkin calculation isn't quite accurate? Assuming the cost is $3K and it lasts without any major service issues for 10 years. Thats $300 a year divided by lets say 3 months (300/12 x 3) = $25 per month
of actual usage and that works out to about $1 a day 
(plus electricity) for those months of usage. The rest of the cost can be considered standby or availabilty costs...it's like paying insurance on your home or car...
you don't really benefit from it until you have to use it, and when you do need to use it, you are glad to have it.



> I can't justify it. The kids and I retreat to the basement (where the TV is anyway). In the high heat of the day, and fire up a half dozen box fans at night.


Sure, lots of people spend their entire lives in the basement. 



> And even in this heat, our house hasn't gone past 30C during the day, and drops down to 26 every night. That's pretty good for sleeping.


30C (86F) is uncomfortable even with fans..the fans move the hot air around and don't really provide any cooling effect on the skin. When my previous A/C
broke down, the house went up to 30C back in early
July. Not being used to it that high (I keep my heating
at 18C) it really made me uncomfortable...and I also don't
know what effect that had on my cat..which got sick 
around that same time and cost me $800 in vet bills
and the vets couldn't find anything wrong after spending
that much. 

The other frugality issue here is that at those inside
house temperatures, your fridge (unless you also have
that in your basement) will run longer and consumes
more electricity in cooling your food, That is a hidden cost that people don't think about.

The higher the room temperature, the quicker the heat
gets through the thin fridge insulation and the more
the compressor has to run to keep up. If you open the
door just once at 30C..it might run for an hour to
cool down all the air you just let in at 30C to get down
to the -5c or however you have your fridge thermostat
set. 

That's about 500watts at 30c/kwh (loaded cost) for
1 hr = .5kwh = 15c and not counting the other times
it runs when you don't open the door.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> Most of the world lives in much hotter atmosphere their entire lives. Humans wear full armour in the dessert and they don't melt either. If you see an American who lives in A/C beside an African in 40c, one is sweating profusely and guzzling water and the other seems perfectly fine with the heat


I agree with what you are saying about adaptation to climate, but it all depends on the normal ranges that the body is used to. In Canada, unlike Africa, we go from one extreme to another. 
Considering that the major portion of our population lives along the US border, we experience temperature swings from +30 (June-Aug) to -20C(Dec -Feb). 
In days of high humidty that +30 feels more like +40 
or even higher. 

Other times it's somewhere in between.
The body doesn't have enough time to adapt to high heat conditions like those living in Africa where the temperature swings are not so dramatic.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I think you'd be surprised how fast the body adapts. The problem is you have blistering cold A/C in the malls/workplaces anyways so you never build a tolerance. If they just took the edge off to a comfortable level it would be different, but the hydro companies wouldn't make as much. I think we got dependent on A/C when computers needed it haha


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

My usage calculation was based on electricity. Loaded cost for electricity in Ontario isn't around 30 cents. It's far closer to 20 cents, and is the number I used.
A large central air system can use anywhere from 2-3 kilowatts an hour.
Figure 12 hours of usage a day that's like 30kw a day over 2.5 months. works out to around 450 a year, of course it all depends on usage. 



It's not a moot point. The original question was : "Is it worth it," I say no. My cars don't have AC either. They all used to, and now they don't, it stopped working in each car, and I didn't replace it, again because the season is so short.

Freezing to death at home because you don't have a furnance is far more likely than dying of heat stroke in the summer because you don't have AC.

30 is very comfortable and I can everything but the most strenous activity in it, all day long.
That's why people live in florida and arizona, and a large number of Canadians head south in the winter, warm weather.

A new fridge is rated at about 1 kw a day, so how you figure it takes 500 watts to cool a fridge upon opening it's door is beyond me. Keep in mind even if all the air falls out in a 10 second opening, the food itself doesn't warm up, so it doesn't take a full "cycle" to bring the air back down to temp.

You need it, you like it cold. Great. I don't need it, the heat (or the cold) for that matter rarely bother me.

No matter our opinion the fact remains. AC = not frugal.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> Most of the world lives in much hotter atmosphere their entire lives. Humans wear full armour in the dessert and they don't melt either. If you have A/C in your car, at work, and in the mall and you spend next to zero time outside - yes you will sweat as soon as you feel some heat. If you see an American who lives in A/C beside an African in 40c, one is sweating profusely and guzzling water and the other seems perfectly fine with the heat
> 
> The body actually adapts very quickly. I spend a lot of time outside and the first few cold days of the season is quite painful and then it's fine. This is confirmed by going skiing or training with people who've lived indoors. Turning on the A/C is like turning on a light at night and your night vision or tolerance to heat is gone - it's not just taking the edge off it's a complete opposite. Then you're incapable of enjoying any time outside


I agree. But the same goes for those people from tropical locales coming to Canada. On a sunny 5 C day in January, you'll see Canadians out in shorts and a t-shirt enjoying the warmth and their relatives from Hong Kong, etc. huddled in their parkas.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> I think you'd be surprised how fast the body adapts. The problem is you have blistering cold A/C in the malls/workplaces anyways so you never build a tolerance. If they just took the edge off to a comfortable level it would be different, but the hydro companies wouldn't make as much. I think we got dependent on A/C when computers needed it haha


I would be much happier if AC was kept at maybe 24 or 25 and somewhat dehumidified. 

To be fair, grocery stores have to keep the store cooler to help with spoilage in non-refrigerated displays.


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

I love my A/C like a firstborn child.

While I love summer and was out biking for 3 hours yesterday in the 40 degree weather, I start sweating within about 3 minutes of walking outside. If I don't have A/C it's the same deal. While I don't mind sweating if I'm outdoors, if I have to work in sweaty clothes, I'm ready to go insane by the end of the day.

Wouldn't trade it for anything as long as I'm working all day in a suit.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

crazyjackcsa said:


> My usage calculation was based on electricity. Loaded cost for electricity in Ontario isn't around 30 cents. It's far closer to 20 cents, and is the number I used.


Ok, my mistake, Probably with TOU day rates, it will be closer to 20c.
I'm just going on TOU with the next billing and the new A/C unit installed, so I won't know about how much it will cost me over 60 days (July/Aug), until I get the next hydro bill on TOU. Right now, I'm on the old RPP (6.8c kwh) rate and looking at my last bill...adjusted consumption works out to 16c/kwh loaded cost. 

I expect that that will go up closer to 20c/kwh
since the A/C runs from about 10am to 8pm more frequently on the hotter days we've had. 

It doesn't run much after 8pm or at night at all. 



> A large central air system can use anywhere from 2-3 kilowatts an hour. Figure 12 hours of usage a day that's like 30kw a day over 2.5 months. works out to around 450 a year, of course it all depends on usage.


Well for now, I will accept your figures, because I still need to find out what the hydro bill will be for the days I've run it so far.

It's a bit more complicated than just kwh/hour consumption. The amount that the compressor, furnace fan and condensor fan outside run will determine
the consumption along with the SEER rating and whatever the capacity is in BTU.

here's an example I found on line. 
((5000 BTUh) / (10 SEER)) = 500 Wh
500 Wh x $0.25 = $0.12 per hour to run this air conditioner.

and it probably isn't the loaded cost either.

So if I plug in my 13.5 Seer Keeprite unit 
(2 ton = 24,000 btu in 1 hr), with a 23% more efficient scroll compressor..

I get a ballpark figure of..
((24,000 BTUh)/ (13 SEER)) = 1846 Wh x 77% (scroll compressor is 23% more efficient in power consumption) = 1421?

1421 Wh x 0.16 = 0.85c of power consumption for each full hour that it runs, but it doesn't run for the full hour, just part therof..so if we just call it a half hour of actual running..thats .50c of loaded cost of electricity used for that hour. 

Add another 16 c for a half horsepower furnace fan and we are up to 66-70c per hour used in the highest heat of the day.

Now here's the other thing in my situation..it doesn't
run every day. Some days I'm away during the summer
so it's not turned on. Other days it's only running if
the inside temp is above 26C (79F), so it's not running
on the hour every hour for 12 hours either. 

But if we even take a ballpark figure, that on last hot
scorcher we had last week of 8 hrs running continuous,
it would be around 0.66c x 8 hrs = $5.28 it's going to
cost me at .016c/kwh for one of the highest record
setting temperature days we've had.

Even at $6 to $7 TOU adjusted..it's still worth it to me
on that kind of day.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

crazyjackcsa said:


> A new fridge is rated at about 1 kw a day, so how you figure it takes 500 watts to cool a fridge upon opening it's door is beyond me. Keep in mind even if all the air falls out in a 10 second opening, the food itself doesn't warm up, so it doesn't take a full "cycle" to bring the air back down to temp.


Just going by the tag inside my energy efficient new fridge.
"Electrical rating: amps 6.0" at 120v thats P= ExI watts= 120 x 6.0 = 720.
Now I realize that that may be the startup amps required to get the compressor running, once it's running it drops off to considerably less than 720w, but I don't have an amp meter to clamp onto it's power cord, so I
was guess-timating 500watts per hour of continuous running. 

It probably is far less than that because it only runs for a few minutes when the door is opened.

Ok, you shot me down on that one. I will have to borrow an amp meter one of these days and record how much actual power it consumes on hot days where the inside temp is around 26C.


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