# Online wills vs lawyer



## digitalatlas (Jun 6, 2015)

Hi,

I've read about will services (Legal Wills, Willful Wills) in Canada/Ontario and they seem like a good idea, kind of in the vein of uFile, which I have used for years without issue. I think I have a grasp on the limitations, and my wife and I don't really have really exotic demands in our wills that require significant legal advice. 

Basically we want to name an executor, point out that the other person gets everything, who our kid goes to if we both go, and that our kid gets everything at a certain age if we both go. Maybe throw in some POAs that cannot be exercised until some conditions are met.

My one hesitation now is that when I had POA for my dad, I had originally used the standard one from Ontario's Ministry of the Attorney (MAG) General and two people to witness it. Service Ontario accepted it, CRA accepted it, Service Canada accepted it, but TD bank did not. They said it needed to be from a lawyer.

So I went and helped him get a POA from a lawyer, which didn't technically have the lawyer's name or credentials or anything on it. Two staff members witnessed, they put the address of the office under their names, but no where did it suggest it was a lawyer's office, there was no stamp or seal or anything. It was on legal sized paper, and "looked" more professional than the MAG form with handwritten elements... but TD accepted this.

So overall, I think the online services should be fine for my pretty straight forward directions, but I don't want to run into a situation where either the will or POA are not accepted by someone or another. I assume these services provide printouts that look professional....and as I said, it seems that the witnesses actually don't need to be lawyers, and there is no indication on the document that it was prepared by a lawyer. BTW, I have no expectation that anyone is going to challenge my will or POA in court...it's pretty clear what we want.

Anyone have thoughts or experiences with this kind of thing?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I would always get POAs and health directives done by a lawyer for precisely the reasons you noted. You don't need an institution 'refusing' one of those documents that may be questioned on authenticity.

Assuming you reside in Ontario, as regards Wills, check https://ontario-probate.ca/will-basics/signing-wills-in-ontario/ as regards typewritten wills and the benefit of Affidavits of Execution. Going without such an Affidavit looks like storm clouds to me. Different provinces have different rules. In Alberta, where Affidavits of Execution are essential, we had to scramble to find an original witness to my mother's very old will when we probated her estate. Fortunately we found one of the witnesses still of sound mind but could have died at any minute.

Personally, I would never do a DIY will except in the simplest of circumstances. A family with a child is not that simple. For example, some kind of trust needs to be set up for minor aged children and that trust should be managed by a professional, and not necessarily the guardian of your child. Who would that professional be? A trust company? What happens if all of you die in an auto accident or plane crash? Where do the assets go? To your favourite charity? A favourite sibling(s)? Neices or nephews?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

digitalatlas said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've read about will services (Legal Wills, Willful Wills) in Canada/Ontario and they seem like a good idea, kind of in the vein of uFile, which I have used for years without issue. I think I have a grasp on the limitations, and my wife and I don't really have really exotic demands in our wills that require significant legal advice.
> 
> ...


Having to deal with this with my parents as their PD, POA and later executor, this is one area where I think it's well worth the small cost in legal fees. One does not know what they don't know and in this case, if there are any errors and special requirements from banks, you won't know until its late. Imagine in your case that your father no longer had the capacity to goto a lawyer, then you are screwed. 

When my mother had a stroke, I had to hunt down her paper work, and found out she had accounts in 5 different banks - RBC, TD, Scotia, CIBC, HKBS. I brought the same paper work to each bank as her POA, and all 5 banks had different processes and requirements, 1 required a layer, another required my originals to be sent to their lawyer, etc Fortunately, I all of our stuff was in order and I had help from our family lawyer. Then, we found out that my mother had done something 'odd' in the will but it wasn't her intent, as we are a close family. It was with the help of some advice from the kind MUKHANG PERA and assistance from the family lawyer who drew up my mom's will to fix it. I had to be pay for some more legal estate stuff but at $750, it was well worth it. It would have cost us thousands of dollars if it wasn't for the lawyer. 

If you have kids, or an estate of any notable size (let's say more than $500K), isn't it worth the $1000 for the couple to them all done properly. $1K on a $500k estate, isn't it worth the 0.2% fee. That's better than most self directed accounts fees. Also, as Altared states, there are so many things we don't consider in wills that a layer will ask and walk you through. 

For PDs, it can even be more complicated. Do you want it irrevocable? What are the requirements? Is there more than one person that had the PD, what is the order if one person cannot fulfill their duty.>


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

digitalatlas said:


> ... but TD bank did not. They said it needed to be from a lawyer....


The banks are rather infamous for insisting that things be done in their own way or on their own forms.

If you have a minor child, and testamentary trusts for the child, you definitely do not want to DIY your will.

A lawyer will explain to you better the pitfalls of your seemingly simple plans. Starting with the fact that, in most jurisdictions that I am aware of, you cannot legally appoint a guardian for your orphaned child through a will. You may, and should, express your wishes as to who should be guardian, but the decision will be made by a provincial court. In most cases the wishes of the will are respected if the parents have done adequate planning; but it is not certain.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

digital my takeaway is that there's an entire area you haven't thought through, which a good lawyer would pick up on & would help you advance your thoughts.

this blank area involves your minor child & what would happen if a shocking tragedy were to take away both yourself & your spouse. You are talking about "who our kid goes to" and how "our kid gets everything at a certain age if we both go."

but in practical detail. there would have to be a formal tutor/guardian appointed for the child. Naming the tutor should not be too difficult. 

but the next part is more complicated: Who is to be the trustee of the financial assets that are to be held in trust until the offspring reaches that "certain age"? is the tutor also to serve as the trustee of the estate? this could be problematic ...

if not the tutor, then who is to act as trustee on behalf of the minor child's inheritance? this also is problematic. Keep in mind that professional trustees are so expensive these days that their fees will eat up just about the entire income from the estate. 

also keep in mind that any friend or relative whom you might entrust the duties of trustee to, is in most provinces, nowadays, entitled to charge trustee fees. Let us assume you have a relative who will not greedily charge fees to a child and this relative is capable of financially administering your estate until your orphaned offspring shall have reached the age of majority/age of inheritance.

if you do have such a champion relative, should he or she not also be the child's tutor/guardian? 

also keep in mind that any estate trust to be set up for an orphaned child should allow encroachment upon capital, for the purposes of raising the child & paying for his university education, special medical care that he might require, etc.

there can be many other problems associated with a long period of time during which both parents may have tragically passed away & a minor child is being raised by relatives. IMHO it's a good idea to think these problems through & even discuss them with the person who will be named tutor to the child/children.

of course the probability is that such dire events will never happen. But still, preparing carefully for all scenarios is what a professionally-drawn will is supposed to do.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

One item I would add is that, when you outlive your will provisions, like the kids get old enough to have their own families, make the will simpler and make your current wishes know. We were able to get rid of all the trust provisions, for example.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

^^ definitely

the complications are only for the rare instance of orphaned minors

a good way of solving the minor orphan problem is Just Don't Die


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## digitalatlas (Jun 6, 2015)

I think my preferred scenario is to Live...

But I think I'm convinced about going to a lawyer. Then the question is, who is a good lawyer? Despite some various dealings over the past few years, including some court work for my parents and POAs, purchased a couple rental properties, I have not found any lawyer to be 'amazing' nor any one to be 'extremely negligent'. To that end, I think it's a crap shoot and I don't really know how to judge what constitutes a good lawyer...for real. 

I use arbitrary metrics like, maybe older lawyers have more experience but they might die and I want some continuity; younger ones may have less experience but may grow with me and their fees might be lower; more expensive might be better service or expertise, but who knows...? Random stuff like this trips me up.

So I asked a friend for a lawyer that he used, and it cost him $650 three years ago and now he's quoting me $950.. My friend didn't give a glowing recommendation, only that the guy did the job. This is for 2 wills, and 4 POAs between me and wife. Meanwhile, a law firm nearby with excellent google reviews (yeah...I know...) charges $500 for the same 6 documents, but he doesn't do court work whereas the first one does....does that mean a lawyer who goes to court probably has better insight and is worth more money?

I know at the end of the day, the difference in price is not that big, and we do have a fair amount of assets to protect for our kid. But it's like finding an accountant or doctor, it's mostly a crap shoot. I feel like I don't need the best lawyer, just a decent lawyer, but how come there's such a difference in price...? 

What's a reasonable price for getting a lawyer to create a will and POA? The breakdown above is just over 300 per will and 75 for each POA. Is that reasonable? How does the other lawyer charge 500 for the same number of documents, is that particularly low and summons some 'buyer beware' sentiments?

On a somewhat unrelated note, I think an online will for $40 is fine for my somewhat elderly mother who at this point has basically no material possessions (including no real estate, by choice, apparently, due to religion...), and I just want to be able to file her taxes. And even then, CRA has a form for that now...but some kind of will is probably useful, right?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I can't imagine a lawyer charging only $500 for 6 documents. That seems dirt cheap and then some. $1000 seems more likely for 2 each of Wills, POA and PD (or health directive). At $500/hr, he is not putting in more than a few hours of work.

I am of the view that a lawyer that is part of a multi-lawyer legal firm can possibly do it cheaper than stand alone operations because the effort to build all the boilerplate is spread among the 5-10 lawyers in the firm. The language has to be tweaked every time there is an Estate Law or similar law changed, or Case Law based on court judgements. Some boilerplate does not stay static very long.

Added: It will take upwards of an hour of face-to-face time, mostly up front, but perhaps a second visit to get all the right things in the Wills. A good lawyer will have many questions for you such as... have you thought of X? What would you want in the event of Y? etc...etc.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have gone through the process twice in the last 10 years, most recently about 18 months ago. It was well worth our time and our money to engage a knowledgeable professional. As AltaRed notes, the lawyers, different in each case, asked us a number of thought provoking questions as well as providing good advice and directions.

The prep work leading up to the meeting was very important and itself made us spend time thinking about and discussing a number of issues so that we would be prepared-a list of questions and discussion topics for the meeting.

I was an executor for both of my parents. I view it as the last kind thing that you can do for your loved ones. I certainly appreciated that my parents had current wills. POAs etcl and had arranged their personal affairs in such a way that it was so easy for me to wrap things up.

I have no doubt that we will be refreshing our will in another eight years, or if a signficant life event occurs in the interim.

IMHO, the cost and the effort in preparing a will with a legal professional pales in comparison to the potential legal fees, angst, and administrative delays that can occur when a loved one passes without this preparation. As I recall, I believe that our cost for both wills, POA's etc was approx. $900-$1000. last time. We thought the fee was reasonable.

I should mention that when we did our wills eight years ago or so we purchased a DIY will kit. We had no intention of doing our own wills. We bought the package so that we could understand the process, the requirements, and the end products prior to starting the process with the lawyer. It was a very good introduction to the process.


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

Lawyer fees are definitely the wild wild west. Trying to gauge the value of their fees, knowledge, and experience is an extreme crapshoot. That industry desperately needs a disruption, and major transparency. But the good news about stuff like Wills and POAs, is that they're flat fee services, instead of billing you very expensive rates at 6 minute increments. 

As far the topic at hand. No, don't do online legal anything where there major $ on the line. It's penny wise,and pound foolish. I just did mine a few months ago, the thread is below for some info.

https://www.canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/136790-Need-help-with-drafting-a-will


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

The hardest part for us was not the legal fees or getting the necessary data together. The hardest part was getting past our procrastination over X number of years. This always seemed to be on the todo list.. So eight or ten years ago we just decided that we had to do this prior to embarking on an extended trip out of the country. Once we decided that this was a 'must'we got down to business and went forward quizzing our friends and associates as to which legal firm/lawyer they recommended. It moved quickly. It was a matter of getting on the bit and getting it done. Once done, updating the will to reflect changes or executor change was a breeze.


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## digitalatlas (Jun 6, 2015)

STech said:


> Lawyer fees are definitely the wild wild west. Trying to gauge the value of their fees, knowledge, and experience is an extreme crapshoot. That industry desperately needs a disruption, and major transparency. But the good news about stuff like Wills and POAs, is that they're flat fee services, instead of billing you very expensive rates at 6 minute increments.
> 
> As far the topic at hand. No, don't do online legal anything where there major $ on the line. It's penny wise,and pound foolish. I just did mine a few months ago, the thread is below for some info.
> 
> https://www.canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/136790-Need-help-with-drafting-a-will


STech, thanks a lot for the link. I read the whole thing and it was lots to consider. About being the wild wild west, you said you paid $475 for a will and 2 POAs. Presumable your wife also prepared the same documents. Does that mean it was $950 for the both of you, 6 documents? Is this in Ontario? I'm in the GTA, but not Toronto proper.

I guess it all seems around that range. I was thrown off by the guy that's got 2 locations, not doing any court work, but only charging $500 for the 6 documents...everyone else seems to be closer to the $700-100 for 2 wills. But it's like even from a few years ago, the lawyers all decided to up their fees. Friends said they all paid about $500 in the last few years.

I guess I don't want to be ripped off, but at the end of the day, it's not that big a difference. I totally relate to ian about procrastinating...my wife and I have been planning to do this for years. Unfortunately my dad passed recently intestate, so it's lit a fire under my butt, also since I have a more complex estate estate any my kid is only in grade school.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

As has been said earlier, this is perhaps the best investment you can make for the money, potentially avoiding mis-allocation and mis-appropriation of large sums of money doing it wrong. Quibbling over hundreds of dollars on perhaps the most important documents of your life seems totally foolhardy. IIRC, my Will, POA and PD alone cost me over $1000 due to the complexities of interaction with the co-habitation agreement of my late-in-life relationship and how that all interacts with my biological heirs. Still the best money I ever spent.


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

digitalatlas said:


> STech, thanks a lot for the link. I read the whole thing and it was lots to consider. About being the wild wild west, you said you paid $475 for a will and 2 POAs. Presumable your wife also prepared the same documents. Does that mean it was $950 for the both of you, 6 documents? Is this in Ontario? I'm in the GTA, but not Toronto proper.
> 
> I guess it all seems around that range. I was thrown off by the guy that's got 2 locations, not doing any court work, but only charging $500 for the 6 documents...everyone else seems to be closer to the $700-100 for 2 wills. But it's like even from a few years ago, the lawyers all decided to up their fees. Friends said they all paid about $500 in the last few years.
> 
> I guess I don't want to be ripped off, but at the end of the day, it's not that big a difference. I totally relate to ian about procrastinating...my wife and I have been planning to do this for years. Unfortunately my dad passed recently intestate, so it's lit a fire under my butt, also since I have a more complex estate estate any my kid is only in grade school.


That was for me only. Not all lawyers double up the fees when you and the wife go in together, ask around. And yes that was in Ontario, in the GTA. I should mention I got a small discount through work ($75). It's not much, but of course I took it. A few dollars here and there between different lawyers doesn't mean much at all. I also very strongly disagree that a big city lawyer charging double, is twice as good as a smaller town lawyer. They just have higher rent they want to pass on. There are no guide fees or anything to dictate what lawyers charge. They just charge whatever they want. Some are very reasonable, and some are ludicrous. I know of a law clerk in a small town that charges more than what a lawyer in a bigger town charges. About 15 years ago I bought a house and used the lawyer my real estate agent recommended. I remember him charging me around $1,500. I met him once in a fancy office in Mississauga, and honestly found him arrogant and made me feel like small fish. 6 years later I bought another house, and asked a friend what lawyer he used. 2nd lawyer charged me about $900, and he was much more thorough. He also took the time and made me feel like a customer. Fees charged is of no indication of competence or client care.

Ask for word of mouth, read the google reviews, call the office and see what kinda of vibe you get. In the meantime, do up a handwritten will at a minimum. Also, go onto those online will generators, fill out the forms, just to get an idea of what's inside of a will. 

And to give you a different perspective. You think it's a bad thing your kid is in grade school. To me, that gives your will even more value. If your kid isn't going to be of a certain age for a while to come, then the will won't need to be modified, and cost per year of that will goes down significantly. The less times a will needs to be changed or amended, the better value it becomes. Then again, even a $1,000 in legal fees is peanuts if it'll prevent issues with an estate worth large 6 or 7 figures.

My advice. Do up the handwritten will right after you finish reading this. Find a lawyer you're comfortable with, and pay the freight. You'll sleep better at night, and will soon forget the sting of the cost.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

I, like I think most people....try to avoid lawyers like the plague....
Having said that, regarding finding a lawyer to do up your will(s), would you give any credence to those who advertise as "specializing" in wills & estates, over others that do not hang out this shingle?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^


> Having said that, regarding finding a lawyer to do up your will(s), would you give any credence to those who advertise as "specializing" in wills & estates, over others that do not hang out this shingle?


 ... I would expect those who "specializes" in wills know all the insides out and give competent advice (ie. be able to answer all the questions I have) for the "specialized" price I'm paying for. 

Alternatively, if your will is simple (ie. you don't have much assets to bequeath), you can go to one of those kiosks at Walmart (or Costco?) to get it done, cheaply.


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

jargey3000 said:


> I, like I think most people....try to avoid lawyers like the plague....
> Having said that, regarding finding a lawyer to do up your will(s), would you give any credence to those who advertise as "specializing" in wills & estates, over others that do not hang out this shingle?


That was a deciding factor for me. The lawyer, and his law clerk, specialized and were seasoned in wills and estates. Could a real estate lawyer do as good a job? Maybe or maybe not. I didn't want to find out.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We dealt with someone who specializes in wills and estates. We have engaged a lawyer a few times over the past ten years and have always been satisfied with the outcome. Our focus tends to be on the benefit, then we consider cost. But...I had lots of dealings with lawyers and with contracts in my working career so I was in no way intimidated by any of them. My experience....there are some fine lawyers out there who are good and fair business people. . The rates may seem high but the cost of running an office is high. 

The cost of not getting something right can be much, much higher from a financial and a personal perspective. When I engaged a lawyer for a termination issue I never did ask about his hourly rate. I was referred to someone who was apparently one of the best in the city. My focus was on what he was able to achieve on my behalf, not his rate. At the end, his last gimme from the company was that they add the amount of his fee to my termination agreement.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

You don't save money being cheap.

If you have anything you actually want done, talk to a lawyer, as pointed out for $1k or so (some do a fixed price), they can create a good will, answer questions etc.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

Definitely use a lawyer. Don't be penny wise, pound foolish.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

another question re the lawyer.....I'm wondering ....in gathering your information etc. is it necessary, or required, that you have to disclose the type AND VALUE of you assets, or even just list them.
eg you say you have 3 bank accounts, or whatever, does the lawyer need to know whether you have a total of say, $10,000 or say, $5 million in those accounts??? etc. is it relevant ?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Only in a general sense, but none of those specifics are necessary because no details like that are included in wills. The lawyer really only needs to know the types of assets you have, .e.g. bank accounts, brokerage accounts, business ownership such as CCPC, Sole Proprietorship, etc. so as to ensure the right clauses are in the Will, and it is also helpful to have an overall feel for net worth in case things like trusts and other vehicles may be worthwhile to minimize estate taxes and allocations to beneficiaries.

The only things that should be specifically described in a Will are those specific things that must go to specific people, e.g. your vintage Mustang convertible to nephew X.

The lawyer might ask, and I would disclose regardless of being asked, that I also have TFSAs and RRSPs/RRIFs that have beneficiaries assigned and who because the lawyer might advise not to shut your spouse out, or to have the estate being the beneficiary of those accounts for specific reasons.

What the lawyer is interested in is a Will that will cover your assets, minimizes the risk of being contested, and that your assets will go to the people/organizations that you want them to go too.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

jargey3000 said:


> another question re the lawyer.....I'm wondering ....in gathering your information etc. is it necessary, or required, that you have to disclose the type AND VALUE of you assets, or even just list them.
> eg you say you have 3 bank accounts, or whatever, does the lawyer need to know whether you have a total of say, $10,000 or say, $5 million in those accounts??? etc. is it relevant ?


The other thing to keep in mind is that the lawyers job is to take the general idea of what you want, and get that implemented. They'll tell you if they need more.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Should your will lawyer be young and/or as part of a medium sized+ firm? Is continuity of your will being associated with a practicing lawyer at your time of death important? Is there some action that the lawyer takes by default upon your death? Or do you need to leave the hard copy with your family member is who is the intended executor, and this has nothing to do with the lawyer? Sorry if these are dumb questions...

I need a will and very much liked the real estate lawyer that I just dealt with to buy my home...But it is a husband/wife duo law firm. They were barely google-able, came on a personal recommendation, and I suspect could up and disappear at any moment. Certainly it's likely they will be retired in 10 more years. Is this not the wrong profile of a lawyer who should prepare (and keep?) your will, or does that not matter?


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Double post


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## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

peterk said:


> Should your will lawyer be young and/or as part of a medium sized+ firm? Is continuity of your will being associated with a practicing lawyer at your time of death important? Is there some action that the lawyer takes by default upon your death? Or do you need to leave the hard copy with your family member is who is the intended executor, and this has nothing to do with the lawyer? Sorry if these are dumb questions...
> 
> I need a will and very much liked the real estate lawyer that I just dealt with to buy my home...But it is a husband/wife duo law firm. They were barely google-able, came on a personal recommendation, and I suspect could up and disappear at any moment. Certainly it's likely they will be retired in 10 more years. Is this not the wrong profile of a lawyer who should prepare (and keep?) your will, or does that not matter?


Having procrastinated about wills, we finally picked a local guy out of the yellow pages. (Readers who don't know what that is can ask their grandparents.) He was a very young sole practitioner -- but thorough and easy to work with.

He recommended against leaving the original copy of the will with him, or with any lawyer. After the passage of years, this can create problems, as you propose. Our lawyer suggested buying a firebox/safe to keep the will at home. 

Ironically, this lawyer subsequently vanished without an online trace. No idea what became of him. I'm glad I've got the firebox ...


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Whether the original of the Will should be kept with the lawyer or secure in a fireproof box/safe at home very much depends on who the lawyer firm is. I've always gone with a main stream legal firm of dozens of lawyers where document storage and retention is a big deal for them. Regardless of lawyers coming and going from the firm, the documents are always safe there. My executor knows where the Will is located, as is the original of the POA.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Does having the will stored at the lawyer's office (the same lawyer who drafted the will) provide any benefits other than, presumably, very good storage and organization and no chance of "losing" the will?

I'd like to use this lawyer, but as fireseeker suggested, storing the will there is probably a no-go as this is a mom and pop shop. Am I missing out on anything important by going this route?

After you die what's the next step? The executor retrieves the will from its location? Does the original law firm holding the will provide any service during the will retrieval process that would not happen if the will is just retrieved from my home?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I would not store the original Will at a small legal operation for all the obvious reasons discussed, e.g. firm folding, the 1-2 lawyers dropping dead, loss of records in fire or flood, etc. Better to be in a fireproof safe at home (still need to protect against fire so a minimum 2 hour fire rating is pretty critical). 

It is the job of the Executor to retrieve the Will, so of course the Executor has to know where the original is and how to access it. The lawyer who prepared the Will has no residual commitment to provide services post-death to the Executor except to retrieve the Will for the Executor from their files. Anecdotally though, I have heard that at least some of these lawyers may provide a free consultation to the Executor on Will interpretation and point the Executor in the right direction. This may be simply goodwill, or a marketing ploy/offer to also handle Probate for the Executor.

Most Executors do not want (nor should be expected) to handle probate on their own, the exception maybe being where the Executor is also the key beneficiary, or the only beneficiary, of the Will.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Great! Thanks AltaRed,

Seeing how I have an inclination to want to rehire this lawyer vs. a random, and the benefit of holding the will at the lawfirm doesn't really seem to outweigh the potential problems, I think I'll go the route of hiring the preferred lawyer, and keeping the will safe at home.


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