# $80,000 to $100,000 annual retirement need?



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

How do people spend their money? Whenever I read certain profiles of Canadian couples in globe and mail or financial post, sometimes it floors me. And in looking summary budget plan, there may be the occasional small loan to pay off. But sometimes there's not. Does that projected amount include paying personal income tax?

If the above is without personal income tax, I must lead a simple, happy and clueless life when even if I took 1 foreign trip for 4 wks., that still would not amount to $80,000.

I'm puzzled. Of course I'm talking about 2023 dollars. Maybe above amount is basic in 25 yrs.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

You're wondering how a couple can spend 80K in retirement?

I don't think there's anything crazy about that. I'm single, pretty frugal, and spend about 43K annually. If there were two of me, with some expensive tastes, that could easily reach 80K.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

james4beach said:


> You're wondering how a couple can spend 80K in retirement?
> 
> I don't think there's anything crazy about that. I'm single, pretty frugal, and spend about 43K annually. If there were two of me, with some expensive tastes, that could easily reach 80K.


Annual spending is approx. 31K but I tend to slap on extra 10K for unknown/unpredicted.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

jlunfirst said:


> Annual spending is approx. 31K but I tend to slap on extra 10K for unknown/unpredicted.


But is that for two people? You're a couple who lives on 31K?


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

james4beach said:


> But is that for two people? You're a couple who lives on 31K?


No, just for me.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

james4beach said:


> But is that for two people? You're a couple who lives on 31K?


Money can be saved by living in the same home and sharing utility bills.

When you retire, you don't even need two cars.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

TomB16 said:


> Money can be saved by living in the same home and sharing utility bills.
> 
> When you retire, you don't even need two cars.


This is what I was thinking. I was part of a couple with my partner for 29 yrs., before he died. I'm pretty certain our monthly grocery bill in 2022, would have amounted to $450.00-$500.00/month --at most. Other months, less. But then as a couple, we ate out together, a cafe snack somewhere or nice dinner date several times/month. You know, couple "dates". For sure, utilities is a tiny bit more, because 1 extra person is taking showers. Condo fees, property tax doesn't double.

Single people don't save that much money (assuming a couple is equally frugal). One gets ripped off on hotel accommodations if a person travels solo. Also single people don't have the advantage of pension splitting, etc. Something for those who are married now, and one day, there..will be a loss. (I'm sorry to say).

However, I would not say get coupled....to save money. Lousy idea.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

A lot of people, including my wife, dream of retiring and traveling the world. The day after they retire, they want to go berserk with vacations.

I think $25K is a reasonable budget for the first year for travel only. A couple of 3 month overseas trips and it would be difficult for some people to keep within that budget.

$80K is not an infinite sum, to say the least. For a home body or someone who travels by car, stays in low end hotels, and rides their bike, $80K is probably well sufficient to the task. Even there, it's going to depend on where you bike. If you are biking through Whistler, that's different than if you're biking through High Prairie, Alberta.

I wouldn't judge people's retirement budget too harshly. Needs vary wildly.

But, yeah, having the capability to be frugal is super powerful. People without that ability need to work way, way longer in order to fund up their inefficiency.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

jlunfirst said:


> How do people spend their money? Whenever I read certain profiles of Canadian couples in globe and mail or financial post, sometimes it floors me. And in looking summary budget plan, there may be the occasional small loan to pay off. But sometimes there's not. Does that projected amount include paying personal income tax?
> 
> If the above is without personal income tax, I must lead a simple, happy and clueless life when even if I took 1 foreign trip for 4 wks., that still would not amount to $80,000.


$80k spending in a year is a cakewalk for some ... my neighbor just spent $70k this year on their kitchen alone plus their vehicles (2) are never more than 4-5 years old. Add all that up with living expenses plus multiple vacations a year and I bet they're over 6 figures.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

cainvest said:


> $80k spending in a year is a cakewalk for some ... my neighbor just spent $70k this year on their kitchen alone plus their vehicles (2) are never more than 4-5 years old. Add all that up with living expenses plus multiple vacations a year and I bet they're over 6 figures.


Yup, those retrofit jobs. Worth it while still alive. Might as well enjoy it after it's done too. I haven't yet asked a single friend her annual retirement cost. She's paid off her 2 (or is it 3) bedroom older home, 3 decades ago but doesn't have/own a car. She buys a subscription to a meal plan...one of those arrangements buyer is a sent a box of ingredients with recipe. When she told me this, I was abit surprised. She tells me box contents lasts for her at least 2 meals. I don't know what the cost is but she can't be bothered to think about planning for meal and hence, buying groceries.

Ok. Remember, she and I each don't have any children. So I find choices very interesting. I consider cooking a casual, creative thing. I don't have the demands of children. I very rarely cook from recipes. It's all in my head. (My partner was also creative, casual in planning and he was a good cook.) I don't even plot my whole wk. of meals in advance. It's putting together something healthy, balanced daily, based on ingredients at home. Yea, I sorta of plan...1-2 days in advance, but can change my mind. I always buy small amounts of groceries for 1-2 wks., if possible on sale flyer and whatever other ingredients long term for several wks./months.

A meal subscription...would drive me insane! It would feel like straitjacket from a cooking perspective and take the pleasure away from browsing in stores and market, looking at food and the seasonal changes throughout the yr.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

jlunfirst said:


> Yup, those retrofit jobs. Worth it while still alive. Might as well enjoy it after it's done too.


As long as it is worth it to them, that's fine. I couldn't fathom spending that on a kitchen, well maybe if I was a world class chef or something I could. 

As for the G&M or FP articles, of course they'll profile the higher earners/spenders cause not many want to read about a retirement couple (and there are many of them) who are just getting by with the basics of life.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I wonder how people could survive on a net income of $31k a year.

Our net income is about 90k a year. We have no interest in travel or dining out. It is a comfortable income for our stay at home lifestyle.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

I agree that spending "needs" are quite subjective. Most of people's spending well exceeds their needs and that is fine if they can afford it. There is also a difference between $80k net and $80k before tax. I believe at one time $50k after tax was considered a middle class retirement income. Not sure if that was just what advisors used as it was a nice round number or if that would be a good number to use as a baseline. I originally used that as our target a projected a 3% a year inflationary target and 5% investment return a year. That would have put us at about 80-85k a year net when we retired. Until recently, inflation was lower and returns were higher. Perhaps a higher net income is needed for my projections.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

One reason our net income is so high is because of all the income tax deductions, including some just for seniors.

2 personal deductions, 2 pension income deductions, 2 age deductions, one disability tax credit, one working income deduction, and pension sharing.

People will discover when they are old that the difference between the gross and net income isn't as much because of the extra tax deductions, and not paying CPP, EI, union dues, pension and other payroll deductions and contributions.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

sags said:


> I wonder how people could survive on a net income of $31k a year.
> 
> Our net income is about 90k a year. We have no interest in travel or dining out. It is a comfortable income for our stay at home lifestyle.


$31K / yr. would be without even domestic plane flights anywhere and no vacation overnights anywhere outside of city. No mortgage, no line of credit use.

I don't have the cost of the car because don't drive/own a car. This summer, I replaced worn-out bike tire around 7 yrs. old, with much needed $90.00 Schwable med. width bike tire. (if one knows about bikes, this has blue liner to drastically reduce flats. I recommend it or Continental). Bike grease for about $8.00.

2022 Total annual transit= approx. $170.00 for Calgary, Vancouver (5 days) and Toronto (10 days). Latter 2 cities I was visiting doing stuff, enjoying Toronto and Vancouver via transit (very efficient systems) and seeing loved ones. Taxicab rides to 2 different city airports on 2 different trips: $100.00. It helps alot to have lived in these 2 cities previously to understand their systems' efficiencies since I left those airports via transit train with my rolling carry-on luggage.

Anyway, I don't want to get into more boring breakdowns. But local transportation with a car can cost, if it's errands and some visits somewhere each wk. But sure, use it for safety and comfort if you don't live in neighbourhood close to stuff and services.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I wonder how people could survive on a net income of $31k a year.
> 
> Our net income is about 90k a year. We have no interest in travel or dining out. It is a comfortable income for our stay at home lifestyle.


Totally depends on your rent/mortgage payment, or lack thereof. 31K net is plenty for a single person with no mortgage, but it would be very tight for a couple. Other factors include travel and vehicle choices. If you're living on that little, you probably drive a fully paid-off vehicle, or no vehicle. You also probably take one trip per year and maybe not every year.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

The cost of travel can vary widely depending on where you travel, how you travel and even when you travel (high, low, or shoulder season).

No different that how the cost of housing and transportation at home can vary depending on needs, desires, choice, location, etc.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

nathan79 said:


> Totally depends on your rent/mortgage payment, or lack thereof. 31K net is plenty for a single person with no mortgage, but it would be very tight for a couple. Other factors include travel and vehicle choices. If you're living on that little, you probably drive a fully paid-off vehicle, or no vehicle. You also probably take one trip per year and maybe not every year.


Because I have been a heavy public transportation systems user...well actually most of my life. Even as a teen, I took the local transit bus occasionally. So visiting in big cities...I actually actively check to see in advance what their local train systems are like.



ian said:


> The cost of travel can vary widely depending on where you travel, how you travel and even when you travel (high, low, or shoulder season).
> 
> No different that how the cost of housing and transportation at home can vary depending on needs, desires, choice, location, etc.


Yes. My partner and I never rented any car on trips in Europe and Asia. I think we must have taken 2 taxi trips in total, for 3 different major foreign trips across7 different countries. We used the European and Japanese, S.Korean train systems and some trips, we did some biking ie. 10-100 km. certain days. The trains in those countries are superior in speed, choice and reliability. We didn't sign up for any group tours.

I stress: it helps first, to have lived in big CAnadian cities and used transit systems as part of your lifestyle. You know how to take transit from airports for: Calgary (bus), Toronto (TTC bus (every 15 min.) to subway or the little express train) and Vancouver (Canada Line train). I can see people from rural areas, maybe freaking out abit inititally.

Now for myself, I might consider a small group tour for at least part of foreign trip outside of North America.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

I don’t know how you people can be frugal and yet spend 40k per year.
When I was a student my entire scholarship was 30k per annum and I still managed to save good chunk of it.
PS If I were to live in Bahamas and work remotely for an American company would I have to pay taxes in the USA or Canada or only in Bahamas?


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Ukrainiandude said:


> I don’t know how you people can be frugal and yet spend 40k per year.
> When I was a student my entire scholarship was 30k per annum and I still managed to save good chunk of it.
> PS If I were to live in Bahamas and work remotely for an American company would I have to pay taxes in the USA or Canada or only in Bahamas?


As a student living in another city and not on scholarship, but partially on a student grant plus my own savings via summer job and Christmas time (retail), I *didn't pay *for:


Internet (it didn't exist worldwide, off-campus in 1980)
No cell phone (they didn't exist)
No computer (personal computing didn't burst onto scene worldwide until approx. 1985ish)
No utilities (it was wrapped into apartment rent, split with 2 other room mates)
No property insurance. I didn't buy tenant insurance. I didn't have much --just clothes, some books, bed, table, chair and typewriter
No health care benefit payments/costs-- I was very healthy anyway.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

ian said:


> The cost of travel can vary widely depending on where you travel, how you travel and even when you travel (high, low, or shoulder season).
> 
> No different that how the cost of housing and transportation at home can vary depending on needs, desires, choice, location, etc.


Valid points. There is a huge difference in costs on when you go. Simple Supply and Demand. Also where and how are huge factors. There are people whose costs are lower when they travel.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> I don’t know how you people can be frugal and yet spend 40k per year.
> When I was a student my entire scholarship was 30k per annum and I still managed to save good chunk of it.
> PS If I were to live in Bahamas and work remotely for an American company would I have to pay taxes in the USA or Canada or only in Bahamas?


I don't know the answer to your tax question and it might be worth starting a new thread in the taxation section. However, I do know the Bahamas can be expensive.

Cost of Living in Bahamas - 2022 prices. (expatistan.com)


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> When you retire, you don't even need two cars.


How can you say that? Everyone is different and has different lifestyles. We need two cars. We each have different interests and responsibilities that overlap.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

londoncalling said:


> Valid points. There is a huge difference in costs on when you go. Simple Supply and Demand. Also where and how are huge factors. There are people whose costs are lower when they travel.


We have spent five winters in Thailand. Lots of great comparatively inexpensive places to stay. Same with Vietnam and Cambodia. Mexico can be the same if you travel independently. We are hoping to go back to SE Asia in Feb/March. We are looking at Morocco for a fall trip. Prices are surprisingly reasonable.

We spent five May/June weeks in Portugal this year. We have been there several times before. This time we decided to travel rail based on where we planned to go. It was a nice change from renting cars which is the norm for us. Turned out that rail is very inexpensive. So is air in Europe. Anyone over 65 gets half price rail fares in Portugal even if you are not from an EU country.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I recently did this case study on my site. 
If you want to retire early, say 50-ish, you need a bunch. 








How much do you need to retire on $7,000 per month?


How much do you need to retire on $7,000 per month? In previous posts on my site, I highlighted how much you need to save to retire on $5,000 per month AND $6,000 per month. I’ll link to thos…




www.myownadvisor.ca





If you want to retire at age 65 or later, you don't need as much.

Based on my research, interactions with many successful retirees, etc. excluding government benefits such as CPP and OAS averaging $80k per year increasing by inflation you need between $1.5 M - $2 M invested - that sets you up very, very well.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

My Own Advisor said:


> If you want to retire at age 65 or later, you don't need as much.
> 
> Based on my research, interactions with many successful retirees, etc. excluding government benefits such as CPP and OAS averaging $80k per year increasing by inflation you need between $1.5 M - $2 M invested - that sets you up very, very well.


Combined CCP and OAS 80k per year isn’t enough? If planning to live up to 95 y old, 1.5M divided by 30 years will give you another 50k per year plus decreasing interest as you go from 1.5M to 0M.
I can live pretty comfortable life on 80k plus 50k 
even 80k would be enough


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Combined CCP and OAS 80k per year isn’t enough? If planning to live up to 95 y old, 1.5M divided by 30 years will give you another 50k per year plus decreasing interest as you go from 1.5M to 0M.
> I can live pretty comfortable life on 80k plus 50k
> even 80k would be enough


Our base expenses are about $30k. We live quite well on about $60k without sacrificing anything, doing almost anything we want and going away for 2 months every winter. With $80k we'd be living lavishly.


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## ykphil (Dec 13, 2009)

I am just tallying up our expenses for 2022, and if I exclude a couple of seriously face punch-worthy bills to keep my 1995 campervan on the road ($11K) and rebuild my even older 1971 motorcycle ($4K), we spent $32K for two adults living full-time in Mexico where we are renting a small apartment near the beach. This also includes monthly costs of $600 for our non-rented Calgary condo (property tax, condo fees, insurance). We could spend more, but we enjoy living simply and can't see how spending more money would add significant value to our lifestyle. I don't anticipate spending much more than that in 2023 but my wife and I are taking possession on Jan. 3 of a couple of small motorcycles ($2K USD each) so I'll include that in our 2023 budget. We plan to ride down to Panama over 2-3 months, mostly tent-camping. We will probably sell them after we are back for more or less what we paid for.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

ykphil said:


> rebuild my even older 1971 motorcycle ($4K)


Sorry for the off topic but just one quick question ... what 1971 bike did you rebuild?


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## ykphil (Dec 13, 2009)

cainvest said:


> Sorry for the off topic but just one quick question ... what 1971 bike did you rebuild?


I rebuilt my 1971 Triumph Tiger. We were stuck in Calgary for a couple of months last summer, waiting for my van to be repaired. It was a bit of a premature decision but I was bored to death and the bike had been sitting in a garage for 15 years...Now I have to figure out how to ship it to Mexico where I need to import it through a customs broker.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Well, this is good timing... speaking of living on 31K, here's a couple that manages to do it.









2022 Financial Report


It’s the most wonderful time of the year – time for the annual financial report! The stock market has been a bit turbulent, and our net worth declined year-over-year for the first time …




incomingassets.wordpress.com





That includes 7K on travel, by the way. They also rent, so a retired couple with a paid-off house could probably do even better (as long as they can stay away from HGTV and Home Depot).


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

nathan79 said:


> Well, this is good timing... speaking of living on 31K, here's a couple that manages to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


$10,000 in rent in Vancouver? 
$200 on internet annually?

Anyone know their story better??


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

nathan79 said:


> Well, this is good timing... speaking of living on 31K, here's a couple that manages to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm a healthy 63-yr. I don't eat meat often and small amount / meal. 3-4 times/month. I cook from scratch. The only occasional premade stuff I've bought: frozen ravioli, frozen preogi. I don't buy nor eat bread 90% of the time, because now it makes me feel unwell when it's too often. I stopped buying rice 10 yrs. ago since it was pushing me to a near diabetes-2 read.

So my groceries are $4,200/yr. which excludes eating snacks at cafes, restaurants. If I over-estimated, make it $4,000. I don't have a garden. I don't buy only organic. I have enough different types of dried pasta to last me the next 6 months. So that grocery bill includes overstocking my pantry...because I have to. I have to buy during cycling seasons to stock up non-perishables for winter.

I knew a single woman who did own and live in a home at any time of her adult life until around 68. She sold her Toronto condo and rented downtown. She ran out of money around 75 yrs. So she had to move to cheaper rental digs...part of a house. She didn't like it at all. She died 3 yrs. later.

My point to everyone on this forum (who I know the majority own their home): renting is not great. There are alot more things far beyond your control. I wouldn't want the threat of eviction hanging around or rent increases.

LIving already in a scenic area of Canada helps alot for vacation trips.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Money172375 said:


> $10,000 in rent in Vancouver?
> $200 on internet annually?
> 
> Anyone know their story better??


I wonder.
Maybe they share a house or large apt. with someone else. Or live with a relative. There's way more of any of those alternative home-sharing arrangements, going on now...long after person has finished college/university.

One can go to the library to use their Internet...for free. Or sit for hrs., in a cafe to use their free wifi... and monoplize a table meant for 4 people. I've only done the library thing less than 10 times in my life (and I have been a librarian! But not in public nor university libraries.)


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Combined CCP and OAS 80k per year isn’t enough? If planning to live up to 95 y old, 1.5M divided by 30 years will give you another 50k per year plus decreasing interest as you go from 1.5M to 0M.
> I can live pretty comfortable life on 80k plus 50k
> even 80k would be enough


Lots of people here are talking about 80K for a couple. Do you have a partner?


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Money172375 said:


> $10,000 in rent in Vancouver?
> $200 on internet annually?
> 
> Anyone know their story better??


They rent a studio apartment in a coop since 2010.
For internet just barebones plan Through small local provider Novus, phones through Chatr and Koodo 
they are present on Reddit


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

HappilyRetired said:


> How can you say that? Everyone is different and has different lifestyles. We need two cars. We each have different interests and responsibilities that overlap.


1 day it will dwindle to 1 car. It's a reality, that loss of independence.
1 of my sisters now has 2 too many cars...because her hubby got 2 cars from his parents to use now. Her hubby is only child (his brother died of cancer over 2 decades ago.)Now it's 3 cars parked in their driveway with 1 of the cars, an electric car. Their adult children live in other cities and the U.S. But sure, it's convenient if 1 of them visits for a few wks.

His 95 yr. old mom is too fragile and stopped driving a few yrs. ago. His father died a few yrs. ago.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I took a contrary position, earlier in this thread, with the view that 80~100K is not a lot of money for living in Canada.

Reading the responses, it has become clear some of you have a lot of authority over your spending habits. I have profound admiration for this personal power. Kudos to each of you.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Absolutely no idea what we spend on groceries etc. Nor do we really care. Or anything else really. I keep track of an annual bottom line after tax spend number. Not as a budget, purely for interest. We save more than we spend.

Our spend can be lower (during covid) and much higher if we are travelling overseas for 4-5 months a year.

There does not seem to me to be much sense in comparing spends. Different incomes, different lifestyles, different choices, different tastes, different health situations, different age and family situations.

I think the aim of most people is to have the luxury of choice, even if it is limited.

We are fortunate to have a wide spectrum of choices.

Some people are not able to make choices because of their fixed incomes vs. very basic living expenses.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

ian said:


> I think the aim of most people is to have the luxury of choice, even if it is limited.
> 
> We are fortunate to have a wide spectrum of choices.
> 
> Some people are not able to make choices because of their fixed incomes vs. very basic living expenses.


Your latter point is most important.
It appears some retired couples say 1 partner claims not going out to restaurant meal, etc. If they are living in a city with a good array of reasonably priced restaurants and cafes, then I find it hard to believe a married couple would not enjoy some time together, as a "date" at a cafe or restaurant of their choice. But ok, if they go for long walks, etc. that's good and free. ie. bird watching is fun if there are such areas (there are in our city).

It is very much for their health of their marriage especially if they don't socialize much. I saw this in my parents' marriage and inward turning of their world, since they were very poor and lived a highly restricted income lifestyle in Toronto. We wished they socialized more in person with some of our relatives or a friend/couple, etc. But no, it was us their children they only saw.

We should never assume our partner always want things to be the "same". I'm not directing this remark to you, ian or to anyone in particular. Since obviously you and wife push outward to explore the world.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

My wife and I have been retired for a few years, now.

I just added ALL our joint 2022 expenses minus reimbursements ( Dental insurance, gov't green energy rebates etc)
The net is about $65,000. This includes the one time purchase of a new HVAC and water heating system.

If I omit the HVAC and water system, the annual running cost nets to $50,200. But this also includes groceries and utilities of two adult children.

My wife and I both contribute $2000 per month each into our joint account for these expenses. Which in previous years balances pretty well. Of course 2022 has inflation as well as my questionable Enbridge bill as discussed in another thread.

So based on this, I KNOW we can both retire on $80,000 a year.


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## robfordlives (Sep 18, 2014)

I have approx 50k div/interest income at the moment and we could do live on that....but we would like more....meaning we would like to get out of dodge in winters for 1-3 months at a time. We have not decided if we want to buy or rent, but either one will need higher financial resources. I am thinking at 70k div/interest we should be fine and that will be at a 2.75% SWR. That will not include cpp/oas for either of us coming in 15-20 years down the road. We are hoping to do basement this year, kitchen next and then fence the following. That will get our house 100% caught up on renos so that should not be a huge issue for 5-10 years.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

HappilyRetired said:


> Our base expenses are about $30k. We live quite well on about $60k without sacrificing anything, doing almost anything we want and going away for 2 months every winter. With $80k we'd be living lavishly.


Yes, my math and learnings from others tells me anyone with about $1.5 M - $2 M in the bank, invested well, can likely live off close to $80k per year. 

$80k per year in retirement, increasing with inflation, without any debt is indeed a good life/spend.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

jlunfirst said:


> ... Single people don't save that much money (assuming a couple is equally frugal). One gets ripped off on hotel accommodations if a person travels solo. Also single people don't have the advantage of pension splitting, etc ...


YMMV ... I know several couples where one is frugal and the other want a more luxurious travel experience. Most seem to end up spending a lot more than when the frugal person was single on things like travel.

Another factor it depends on is how one travels. My cousin typically buys business class airfare to Australia but is staying in friend's homes so that it might be two hotel stays per trip. She is also a member of a travel club where when one goes on a trip, one stays in the local club members house, is driven around by the club member etc. At a future date, they switch roles (i.e. she becomes the host for the club member she stayed with).

As well, I doubt the couple staying in a hotel beats the savings of three or four of us single types sharing car expenses, staying in a single hotel room and so on. 


Cheers


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

ian said:


> Absolutely no idea what we spend on groceries etc. Nor do we really care. Or anything else really. I keep track of an annual bottom line after tax spend number. Not as a budget, purely for interest. We save more than we spend.
> 
> Our spend can be lower (during covid) and much higher if we are travelling overseas for 4-5 months a year.
> 
> ...


Our situation (and my views) as well. Intuitively I have a feel for our spend rate (give or take 20% or so) during the course of the year but I don't really add it all up until the end of the year, which I did yesterday from Quicken (total outgoing from our chequing accounts which includes income tax payments as a legitimate spend item in retirement at least).

After 16+ years of retirement, we know our spending pattern within 20% or so (one off exceptions like a new vehicle aside), we know our income within 10% or so and thus we intuitively have a feel for spend rate.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

jlunfirst said:


> As a student living in another city and not on scholarship, but partially on a student grant plus my own savings via summer job and Christmas time (retail), I *didn't pay *for:
> Internet (it didn't exist worldwide, off-campus in 1980) ...


Hmmmm ... was it a deprived area?
I can remember in 1983 deciding the paid access being too expensive compared to four of us splitting the cost of a terminal and modem to access the university.




jlunfirst said:


> No cell phone (they didn't exist)


You didn't miss by much .. though I suspect the expense was more of an issue. 

AT&T commercialized mobile telephones in 1949. Motorola had the first hand held mobile phone in April 1973. Japan had the first cell system in 1979 with the first North American one in 1983.



jlunfirst said:


> ... No computer (personal computing didn't burst onto scene worldwide until approx. 1985ish)


Perhaps expense or not being popular was the issue for you?

My high school had Commodore PET personal computers in 1979 (the first one was released in 1977, the same year as Radio Shack release the TRS-80). The Apple I was preceeded them in 1976. 




jlunfirst said:


> No health care benefit payments/costs ...


I can remember having to go to the OHIP office to show that my income as a student was too low so that the OHIP fees would be waived. IIRC, there was a health care plan rolled into the student union fees.


Cheers


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Eclectic21 said:


> Hmmmm ... was it a deprived area?
> I can remember in 1983 deciding the paid access being too expensive compared to four of us splitting the cost of a terminal and modem to access the university.
> 
> 
> ...


Eclectic I didn't know anyone in my class who had their own computer a home for study purposes. We had to book time for computer use in the computer lab on campus. Yea, back in those days of 'yore.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

It wasn't a personal computer but a dumb terminal and modem. It was much more efficient than signing out the lug able teletype from the university or camping out at the computer lab.

The year after, one of my house mates met a fellow student who was writing a book of basic programs for the TRS-80 colour computer. The profits for this plus birthday money meant the following year there was the dumb terminal and the TRS-80 to use. Sometime after that, another housemate bought an IBM PC clone.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS-80_Color_Computer




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Personal_Computer




Later, I thought my housemate who refused to split the cost of unlimited dialup access was crazy. He preferred the free University of Guelph dialup. Trouble was UoG made sure the lines were in use by resetting the connection, every hour on the hour. IIRC, it was something like eight months later when he had lost too much work that he decided splitting the unlimited account made more sense.


Cheers


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Eclectic21 said:


> YMMV ... I know several couples where one is frugal and the other want a more luxurious travel experience. Most seem to end up spending a lot more than when the frugal person was single on things like travel.
> 
> Another factor it depends on is how one travels. My cousin typically buys business class airfare to Australia but is staying in friend's homes so that it might be two hotel stays per trip. She is also a member of a travel club where when one goes on a trip, one stays in the local club members house, is driven around by the club member etc. At a future date, they switch roles (i.e. she becomes the host for the club member she stayed with).
> 
> ...


We do a combination of both. We are quite happy staying in a small family run place in Thailand, Vietnam, Mexico, of Costa Rica. for $60/70 or so per night. No issue paying three times that for a 5 star hotel in Bangkok or KL. Or more in Oz. Or a high end AI in Mexico. 

These are all very different types of accommodation. We like then all.... but for different reasons. We currently have reservations for a combo of accommodation types for a tentative snowbird trip to Thailand.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

I don't see how what you are doing is anything like my cousin's club. 

She pays nothing for accommodations when she visits the foreign country and she reciprocates by charging her hosts nothing when they stay at her place in Canada.


I do get the point though that there is a wide range of prices around the world for varying levels of accommodations. 


Cheers


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I remember the Radio Shack TRS 80 computer. It was a step up from the one I owned which I forget what it was called. No hard drive but floppy disks.

I had to enter the math formula in each column to use the DeskMate spreadsheet. I could have done it by paper and pencil a lot easier, but it was fancy looking so I persevered on.

Having used the Tandy computers Desk Mate programs, I can see where Bill Gates got his idea for Windows. I doubt it just came to him in a dream one night.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

Actually Xerox in 1973 had a graphical computer with a bit mapped screen. Managers decided not to market. Jobs was given a tour of the Xerox facility, which lead to the graphical Apple Lisa and Macintosh in 1983 and 1984.

VisiCorp launched a GUI to run on DOS IBM PCs in 1983.

SGI launched graphical workstations in 1983 and then a workstation in 1984.


Microsoft launched Windows for IBM PCs in 1985.


No need for Gates to dream when there were examples already out there. 
He only had to avoid lawsuits for copying too much.


Cheers


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## Tayls77 (Dec 10, 2019)

jlunfirst said:


> How do people spend their money? Whenever I read certain profiles of Canadian couples in globe and mail or financial post, sometimes it floors me. And in looking summary budget plan, there may be the occasional small loan to pay off. But sometimes there's not. Does that projected amount include paying personal income tax?
> 
> If the above is without personal income tax, I must lead a simple, happy and clueless life when even if I took 1 foreign trip for 4 wks., that still would not amount to $80,000.
> 
> I'm puzzled. Of course I'm talking about 2023 dollars. Maybe above amount is basic in 25 yrs.


I have been retired 3 years now, we would need to watch spending to get down to 80k and that is before vacations. We have no debt and no mortgage but housing (taxes, utilities, maintenance) alone account for over 30k a year. Once you have all that spare time, you find you golf more ($4,500) this year, grab lunch and a beer after the game, meet friends for dinner more often and suddenly that money you use to put into your retirement plan is just going to life, not deducted from your budget like the planners tell you. I don't feel we live lavishly at all, but we do live. 
The "number" was my biggest fear approaching retirement and after a lot of planning I thought I had it, but the increases we have seen the past two years have blown the number right by that one. As to vacations, we are just back from a couple weeks in Florida and that was an easy 10k, so I don't see the 80k you mention as anything outlandish at all.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Tayls77 said:


> I have been retired 3 years now, we would need to watch spending to get down to 80k and that is before vacations. We have no debt and no mortgage but housing (taxes, utilities, maintenance) alone account for over 30k a year. Once you have all that spare time, you find you golf more ($4,500) this year, grab lunch and a beer after the game, meet friends for dinner more often and suddenly that money you use to put into your retirement plan is just going to life, not deducted from your budget like the planners tell you. I don't feel we live lavishly at all, but we do live.
> The "number" was my biggest fear approaching retirement and after a lot of planning I thought I had it, but the increases we have seen the past two years have blown the number right by that one. As to vacations, we are just back from a couple weeks in Florida and that was an easy 10k, so I don't see the 80k you mention as anything outlandish at all.


How do you spend $30k on taxes, utilities, and maintenance? We're well under $10k a year, and that includes a cabin.

We spent a month in Florida last year, $3k all in. This year 7 weeks in Mazatlán for about $5k. $2k of that was flights.


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## Tayls77 (Dec 10, 2019)

HappilyRetired said:


> How do you spend $30k on taxes, utilities, and maintenance? We're well under $10k a year, and that includes a cabin.
> 
> We spent a month in Florida last year, $3k all in. This year 7 weeks in Mazatlán for about $5k. $2k of that was flights.


Well 8k in taxes, over 8k in utilities, then run a pool and a hot tub, throw in regular stuff you are always doing to the home, redo a garden, buy a TV etc. year before was a 100k because of a reno, year before was a roof for 12k. it seems like a big number to me too, never would have believed it if we didn't track every expense the way we do. We just came back from Florida, just under 3 weeks and it was over 10K and we drove?


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Tayls77 said:


> Well 8k in taxes, over 8k in utilities, then run a pool and a hot tub, throw in regular stuff you are always doing to the home, redo a garden, buy a TV etc. year before was a 100k because of a reno, year before was a roof for 12k. it seems like a big number to me too, never would have believed it if we didn't track every expense the way we do. We just came back from Florida, just under 3 weeks and it was over 10K and we drove?


I likely have a much smaller house. $3600 taxes, $3000 utilities. I did a major reno 3 years ago (gutted half of my house) but did it myself, $20k. New roof $2k (did it myself). Drove to Florida $2400 rent for a month, $600 gas. Didn't count food as would have been the same as if we had eaten at home.

Bought a cabin 2 years ago, replaced the kitchen with one I found on Marketplace, washer, dryer, new floor, new deck, mini-split. Total $10k.

The house reno and cabin upgrades are one-offs. Going forward probably just regular maintenance, $4 - $5k per year for both.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Tayls77 said:


> I have been retired 3 years now, we would need to watch spending to get down to 80k and that is before vacations. We have no debt and no mortgage but housing (taxes, utilities, maintenance) alone account for over 30k a year. Once you have all that spare time, you find you golf more ($4,500) this year, grab lunch and a beer after the game, meet friends for dinner more often and suddenly that money you use to put into your retirement plan is just going to life, not deducted from your budget like the planners tell you. I don't feel we live lavishly at all, but we do live.
> The "number" was my biggest fear approaching retirement and after a lot of planning I thought I had it, but the increases we have seen the past two years have blown the number right by that one. As to vacations, we are just back from a couple weeks in Florida and that was an easy 10k, so I don't see the 80k you mention as anything outlandish at all.


Prior to the last 2 covid winters, we have spent 10 winters, 8-10 weeks each various places. Costa Rica, Mexico, Thailand/Malaysia/Vietnam, Thailand/Australia. Never spent close to 10K a week. We did not even spend that much for 9 weeks in Thailand inclusive of air.

But....this year air has increased substantially. Accommodation not so much based on what we have tentatively booked.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

Prop taxes took a hike last year to about $4800, utilities about $4200. We do our own maintenance/yard/lawn care etc so maybe another $1000. Thats $10k/yr for 3000+ sq ft 10yr old home on 1/2 acre. I estimate we go through about $80k yr but don't travel much other than road trips one province over but that could change. Retired early almost 10 yrs ago. Probably spend $4-5k/yr on golf for me and $3-4k for wife on cycling/fitness/hobbies etc.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

ykphil said:


> I rebuilt my 1971 Triumph Tiger. We were stuck in Calgary for a couple of months last summer, waiting for my van to be repaired. It was a bit of a premature decision but I was bored to death and the bike had been sitting in a garage for 15 years...Now I have to figure out how to ship it to Mexico where I need to import it through a customs broker.


If you haven't done it already, you can take your bike, (wheel taken off, etc.) and have it shipped by Air CAnada as extra large luggage if you or someone else is on flight to pick up bike from Mexican airport.

There is a fee of course. But then, avoid that customs broker. That's how cyclists travel worldwide, by first shipping their bike by air to destination.


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## curioso (Nov 22, 2018)

This scenario puzzles me, and I have this conversation with friends on a regular basis. To my amazement, people seem to be addicted to spending and will deny it all the way to their graves. I have friends who insist that leasing a brand new car for $1200.00/month is "required" and laugh when I mention I drive a 5k car, yet they hate their jobs and live off medications to stay sane.
Long story short : the amount needed for retirement is somewhere between 1 dollar and 500 trillion, give or take.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

curioso said:


> This scenario puzzles me, and I have this conversation with friends on a regular basis. To my amazement, people seem to be addicted to spending and will deny it all the way to their graves. I have friends who insist that leasing a brand new car for $1200.00/month is "required" and laugh when I mention I drive a 5k car, yet they hate their jobs and live off medications to stay sane.
> Long story short : the amount needed for retirement is somewhere between 1 dollar and 500 trillion, give or take.


Hope you continue to add calm sane ear/sanity for friends occasionally.


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