# Do any of you separate your finances with your spouse?



## CadMan (Apr 16, 2010)

Hi,

I'm curious to get others views on the pros/cons of having separate finances with your spouse. In our family I earn most of the income (probably 90-95%). I take care of all of the financial matters for the family (banking, taxes, investments, RRSPs, TFSAs, RESPs, etc.). This isn't because I don't want my wife to share this responsibility, she just doesn't really have any interest at all. The issue that has come to a head for us is that she has 3 separate credit cards - she receives the statements electronically and three times a month I see the money come out to pay the credit cards (usually $500 - $2000) and quite frankly it bugs me. Not because I want to control all the money and keep my thumb on her, but because I'm careful with the finances (I check the accounts several times a day) and I don't like this hole in the family finances that I know very little about. I've made comments about how I'd like to see the statements for these credit cards over the last while and this evening sat down with my wife to explain that this was bothering me and I'd like to talk about how we resolve it. Her reaction was very negative to say the least - I think from her perspective she is sensitive to the fact that I earn most of the money and she doesn't want to feel like she has to "ask" for money or that I am controling her spending. For what it's worth, she does not have to ask at all and has a lot of freedom about how and when she spends money. I tried to explain this to her in a reasonable, calm way that it is important to me to know where we are spending our money and I don't like the current arrangement, but it just turned into an argument.

So, thoughts from others on the forum? Am I being unreasonable? Would it be better to have completely separate accounts (I really think this complicates things and probably leads to more marital strife!)


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

My wife certainly doesn't understand how money should be spent but at the same time cares about it. She would rather have a 52 inch LED TV then a diamond ring because she can enjoy the TV every day and the ring does nothing. 

Still we have had to fight for our entire married life about money and she has been right when she wanted me to buy a house in 1991. It is very hard to fight about it but you have to find a way to get through and keep your money together as one. You may need her to buy stuff go into credit card debt and then show her the money wasted on interest charges.

Sorry that I am all over the place on this one but this is a very hard unresolved issue for me as well.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I believe you have the right to see the credit card statements regardless who is paying for it ,I mean maybe it is all hotel bills meeting her lover lol.In our house My husband gets the mail and we sit and go through it together mainly to make sure the bills are correct .In a year that is $6000 -$24,000 so definitely you should be informed what she is buying.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

I am an outsider looking in and never been married. But the first thought that came to me was, why is it a big deal to let your SO see your CC statement? It doesn't take away freedom and should've been shared to begin with. Unless... there's a huge pile of debt that I am ashamed of, then I wouldn't want my SO to see.


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

My wife and I married later in life. We were both financially secure. To this day we maintain separate accounts and credit cards. 

But.....

We don't hide credit card statements from each other. I can't imagine spending over $500 without my wife knowing what i spent it on and I can't imagine her spending that much without me knowing. I think your position is fair. You have the right to know where 6,000 to 24,000 of your family money is going every year.

Good luck. Marriage takes work and you have to compromise. When it comes to money, you have to try to cooperate too.


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## callyhan (Dec 7, 2010)

My SO and I maintain separate accounts. Our incomes are about 60/40 so we also split our expenses that way. I pay the mortgage out of my account, and he pays for all other bills out of his account and it's a pretty fair split. We pay into savings accounts/investments first with each paycheque, and then whatever is left over after expenses each month is our spending money. Usually around $300 each. 

We meet once a month or so to pull up all our accounts and have a money talk. We talk about any upcoming big expenses, where our investments are at, how we are coming along with our goals for the year.

It was hard when we first moved in together to get our system down, but now that we are in a routine I couldn't imagine not having these talks. We keep our finances separate at this point in our life since we are still younger, and who knows if we will be together 10-20 years from now. I hope so, but things happen. It will be easier to divvy things up if we do ever split.


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## Dibs (May 26, 2011)

CadMan, I think the last few responses have confirmed what you are looking for - they agree that you are not being unreasonable in your request. On the other hand, telling your wife that "everybody on my online finance forum agrees with me" is not going to make your wife agree with you any more. I think the solution you are looking for is not to convince yourself that you are right, but to convince your wife that this is the right thing to do.

We should help CadMan come up with an approach to resolve the problem, instead of just confirming that that he is in the right. Unfortunately I don't have any good ideas for this at this moment.


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## dcaron (Jul 23, 2009)

Reminds of me of the TTDUP ('Til Debt Do Us Part) TV show. Money is a sensitive subject for a majority of couples. My common-law spouse and I have been together for 7 years, and have in been in several debates, and arguments about money, mainly due to her bad spending habits initially. My income versus hers is about 66% versus 33%. We split all fixed and variable expenses at pro-rata. We have each of our common HELOC accounts (co-owners of our house), but separate credit cards. We've set up an automatic debit to direct the funds to one of the accounts every pay day, to cover all our expenses. What is left over is used for our individual spending money, which we use to pay off our fee-less credit card balances in full each month. We dont question each other on the credit card transactions, but we typically discuss upcoming "individual" expenses over $100 or so.

In summary, we share all the common expenses, yet keep our freedom with the individual credit cards.

It has worked for us, and we rarely argue about money anymore.

Not sure if this method will be applicable to CadMan though, due to the vastly different income ratio between spouses.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Every couple is different unfortunately you'll have to figure out what works for you.

Since my spouse stopped working 3 years ago (which kind of irks me) I make 100% of the income. We keep our accounts separate but I know her balance which is basically a few thousand since she has no income. I pay everything so I see all the receipts that's our arrangement until she finds a job. Then she can buy whatever she wants with "her" money, but since she is not working and has no desire to she lives with my rules. It works for us, some people think its crazy. But she asks me if she can buy stuff, even small stuff if it's a want not a need. If she decides she doesn't like asking for money anymore she just has to find a job to pay for the stuff.

Sounds like you are in a similar situation with 95% of the income, if she is spending that much extra and it's not necessities I'd be very concerned.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I think you should try a counselor and not just one that deals with finances. Tell your wife that we aren't getting anywhere when we argue and that you need the help of an outside source. It sounds like you won't be able to live together forever with this problem unresolved, so now it is time to deal with all your issues as well as the money side of it.

Its funny but I think of the dog whisperer here. He comes to a house and after meeting everyone and the dog he will go straight after the owner first before he deals with the dog. Or on shows where a restaurant is failing the expert will end up fixing the owners family issues before he can resolve the restaurant issues. So you may need to fix the issues you guys have before you can fix your money issues in the now and the longer term.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

It might be an easier sell to her, if you propose that you get 2 cc's, in each of your names, but your would have the primary one, so that you can both accumulate more points or whatever the reward is. Heck, even let the rewards be for her or something she wants. That way you can view everything, pay everything, yet not appear outwardly controlling.


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## Zeeshan Hamid (Feb 28, 2012)

Separate accounts or not, if your marriage breaks then it's not "your money and her money" or "your debt and her debt". As such, it is completely reasonable to have full information about each others' finances.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

This can be a huge issue. In my case it was a major cause of my first marriage breaking down. She spent frivolously while we were going deeper in debt. I hated it. It cost me millions to get out of it. Still does. Second marriage works much better in all respects including financial. She(#2) has her own accounts and significant sources of income(pension and dividends). I pay all joint costs and she pays for her personal expenses as well as actually saving or reinvesting a portion out of her total income of about $50k. We have extensive financial tracking and planning spreadsheets that we both keep. No secrets.


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## Patience (Mar 8, 2012)

You can't be married with financial secrets, but you do have to be sensitive to her side. I'd suggest you start building some trust (after a cooling off period) with your spouse so that an open discussion becomes the norm. This may start from not judging and pointing things you may consider to be frivilous spending. Or perhaps work towards some common spending goals with her, and show her that you are sacrificing to meet the goal.

What worked for us at the start of our marriage was a $100 limit. I actually think our church pre-marriage councilling suggested it. If either of us wants to make a purchase over $100 we had to both agree to it. We also had a second rule that anything over $100 had to have a several day "think it through" period. Both of us agreed to the rule so the expectation was mutually set. It became more of a 2-way discussion on why we wanted to spend the money. I don't know that we ever said no to anything, but sometimes we agreed to wait a month or two to spend the money and sometimes by then the needed expenses was no longer needed.

I have a lot of trouble understanding seperate accounts, but I know it works for some people. An example of where I just don't understand it is where one spouse spends and one saves/invests. The one that saves has a large portfolio vs the spender has a debt situation in retirement. Assuming they are still married, is the saver going to travel alone? Eat out alone? Generally enjoy the finer things in life in retirement alone while watching the other live in effective poverty? I doubt it, and it just puts unfair pressure on the saver to sacrifice and provide throughout their lifetime. That's not a balance I would personally tolerate.


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## K-133 (Apr 30, 2010)

In our family we each earn the money 50/50 but regardless of that fact, we have one shared budget in which every single penny is accounted for and allocated. Within this budget is money for various categories that my wife and I spend money on that isn't necessity; hobbies, clothing, etc... Whatever is spent within these categories is quite frankly my wife's business, so long as she sticks within the budget, I don't really care if she buys diamond encrusted shoes. And though I do prefer that we use a single credit card, that is simply to maximize the rewards of that card. She does from time to time spend on another card, let's me know how much and for which category and we're done with it.

Though you earn most of the money logically, as I eluded to above, that is the family's money - at least that's my own attitude. Therefore, I believe that it is the family which should decide where that money gets spent. Keep in mind though that there is also need for autonomy in any relationship, and you should perhaps consider a different approach providing budgets for various categories of her historical spending and letting her buy whatever she likes within the larger sandbox you two might agree to.

What I've described above is just like a symbolic jar system, with the caveat that some jars belong to only my wife or myself. And those jars are essentially black box systems. Money goes in, money is removed, whatever goes on within the jar stays in the jar.

This isn't for everyone but its an option.

I would also like to add that it wasn't always this way and it was a challenge for the both of us to get to where we are however, it was well worth it for all of our our relationship, our family and our financial health.

I think that you may find it useful to understand within yourself the purpose of your financial planning for you personally. For me, it is the need to organize and plan. For my wife, she appreciates that the effort provides us with security and opportunity. My point is simply that we each get something fairly specific out of the exercises in which we engage, and if we don't understand the basic needs which they fulfill, it is very difficult to compromise and / or collaborate as is often required in a marriage.

Best of luck!


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

My wife and I pretty much keep our spending separate and the VISA bills separate as well. I'm likely making 2/3rd of the money and we try and make sure our % savings/%spending is similar.  As long as at the end everything is fair and we're achieving our goals, I don't encourage us to look at each other's bills. In fact, I pretty much hide my VISA as then she'll see the $30-50 per month that I'm spending on on-line computer games and I just don't want that fight to begin.

Perhaps just set an amount you're obth comfortable with (include a % for her mad-money just in case) her spending and leave her alone. Any big purchases should be coming from you anyway.


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## Helianthus (Oct 19, 2010)

You guys fight over $30-$50 expenditures? 

I'm not married, so I can't really contribute fully to this discussion. I am currently in a common law arrangement, and we keep finances separate. Living expenses are split 70/30 due to my income and her extensive travelling for work. 

To the original OP, I would be very concerned about someone spending up to $24,000 of after tax dollars per year, regardless of whether it is considered family money or not. I think you have a right to know where the money is going.


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## JustAGuy (Feb 5, 2012)

Wish I could solidly give some advice on how to handle the situation... but the best I can say is that you have to treat this with the same sensitivity as you would convincing an alcoholic to stop drinking...

When people build up habits they are going to get moody when someone else tries to break their habit. It's as simple as that. If someone is either saving or spending excessively, I wouldn't expect them to have a positive reaction to an interloper stepping even if it's a spouse. But the reality is if you're sharing your life together, and planning on retiring together there really should be more teamwork.

My wife and I have separate accounts, but we're both also fairly responsible with our money... she helped me pay off my student loans, and we both save our money... I've only recently begun to take a more involved interest with how to grow our savings, and once I feel comfortable handling my own money more I'll probably make more of a move to help her grow her savings better.

It's kind of scary that she would be spending large amounts of money without discussing it... if she keeps it a secret she obviously knows there's a problem. Otherwise why keep it secret? The key I think is to break her feeling that it's you versus her... you're in it together...


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Our finances are totally separate, but we each have our own responsibilities so there's not much room for "secret spending." My income is much higher, so I cover the mortgage, food, nights out on the town (rare), car, internet, etc.; she covers property taxes, telephone, and electricity. We each contribute to our own RRSPs and we also contribute extra payments toward the principal on the mortgage. She insists on splitting most other expenses equally, so we basically live at her level. Most of the extra money I have left over goes to paying down the mortgage, emergency fund, etc., but if I want to treat myself to something I can do so without being sent on a guilt trip, because all of our goals are being met.


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## arrow1963 (Nov 22, 2011)

I guess I'll disagree with the majority here. You mention that she's free to spend however she wants to, and that you're not really worried about her spending habits. I'd guess that she might suggest that she's free to spend *now*, but that you're revoking that position, and not for any apparent acute reason.

I've never been married, and I've never been divorced, but I have moved to a couple of different countries with a partner who is employed at roughly the same income as I am, but who has had short-moderate periods of unemployment when moving to new cities. I know that has been hard for her, and that even with temporary periods of unemployment she has had feelings of 'less than equal-ness' that we've had to talk through. If we were to have children, and if she was to fully or partially opt out of the workforce, I expect that would be a major challenge for us, ensuring that our intellectual/theoretical equality is achieved emotionally. 

If her spending is a problem, and you appear to be the frugal type, then this is probably a fight worth having. However, you haven't suggested that this is the case.
If it's just a matter of you wanting to know everything that's going on, then you need to weight freedom, trust, and her feelings of independence and choice versus the potential gains from your enforced frugality, assuming that you not only want to see the bills, but to act based on them.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I think it's different for each person, and really money arguments are just a symptom, and there's usually some thing more in terms of what the money means. 

For my spouse and I, we have done many variations depending on the situation. When we first moved in together, we have seperate accounts for everything, and added a joint account. We each put money in there for the wedding. In terms of living expenses, we each had a responsibility to manage. He did most of the bills, and I bought most of the food, furnishings, etc. We continued on this when we got married. When we were saving for a house, we lived off of my income, and all of 'his' money was saved for the deposit. When we had kids, and I had no income for the first time, we merged all of the bank accounts into one, and everything comes out of there. We have both always had our own credit cards, and I think one or two may have a supplimental card for the other person, but to be honest, I don't think I've really looked at his statements or has he looked at mine. I don't think it would be a problem to, but we see no need. We do have difference spending habits, in terms of where we see value (he likes electronics and cars, I tend to spend on the kids). We just set spending guidelines. Our guidelines include an amount, used to be under $100, now it's $1000, can't be something that will have a long impact in terms of space and storage, (so buying a games table, though in the price guideline, we need more room), and an overall max per month, we say if the spending is over a few thousand each month, let the other person know so their isn't a big withdrawel. This includes necessities such as dental work, etc. 

I think it's really about setting up the boundaries and the communication norms. She may not want you to look through all the statements because it feels like an invasion of privacy, especially if you make most of the money. I guess I would ask, if she made most of the income, would you still demand to look at her statement?


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Never been married, young as hell at 21 years old - so, take what I say with a huge grain of salt.

But, you bring in 90-95% of the income, yet, she doesn't want you to see the CC statements and it turned into an argument?

I wouldn't stand for that at all. I think you have a right to know and I think if it bothers you, she should be willing to discuss this matter with you as your significant other in order to help you feel more comfortable.


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

That the OP earns 90 to 90% of the money is probably something that should be left out of a discussion about undisclosed spending. All income is family income. All expenditures are family expenditures. Would it help, in a discussion, to start from that position? That way it's about sharing rather than control.


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## square one (Jan 19, 2010)

Yes, I agree the income should not matter in a marriage. Perhaps you need to encourage her to become more informed of the budgetting/bills/money management so that she has a better perspective. She may not realize what impact this spending has on the couple's longterm plans. 

In my marriage I tend to be more of a saver than my husband, though we are generally on the same page (or at least the same chapter). He enjoys going out for coffee and lunch at work with his colleagues and it really is a social thing. Conversely, I think wasting all that money on paid lunches is a terrible waste of our money. Interestingly, I am the one who looks after the finances (seems to be a common thread with the 'savers'). To compromise, we agreed to give ourselves 'fun-money' each week that we can blow on anything -no questions asked. The amount is $40/week which I know is a challenge for my hubby while I always have lots left over. So, my reward is that I save up my fun money for when I want to buy some new clothes or whatever. Hubby is starting to realize that if he saves his fun money he too could save it for more expensive treats like bicycle gear. It's good for both of us -now I don't feel bad when I actually do spend my cash! The key to this plan is that we agree and we keep the amounts low. This may be a problem for the OP, but she needs to learn more about the family finances to get on board.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

Agree that there are many workable solutions to this issue. I think the key is that both spouses reach a basic consenus as to what the family financial goals are and how they will be met. Communication is key(as always).


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

CadMan said:


> ... In our family I earn most of the income (probably 90-95%). I take care of all of the financial matters for the family (banking, taxes, investments, RRSPs, TFSAs, RESPs, etc.). This isn't because I don't want my wife to share this responsibility, she just doesn't really have any interest at all. The issue that has come to a head for us is that she has 3 separate credit cards - she receives the statements electronically and three times a month I see the money come out to pay the credit cards (usually $500 - $2000) and quite frankly it bugs me. Not because I want to control all the money and keep my thumb on her, but because I'm careful with the finances (I check the accounts several times a day) and I don't like this hole in the family finances that I know very little about. ...



Very difficult subject if both spouses are not on the same wavelength. Surrendering her personal credit cards may be a symbolic loss of independence & privacy. But if hubby is paying all the bills from the "family" accounts there needs to be more openness about what the spending is for, and when the bills are going to be due.

1. Try to explain to her again that you find it hard to balance the budget when unexpected bills come out of the account 3 times a month.

2. I don't see why someone bringing in only 5-10% of the family income needs 3 personal credit cards. Try to get it down to one, and add her as a secondary account holder on your other cards. Then get her to agree to use the joint cards for family related expenses, and her personal card for her personal expenses, gifts, etc., that she doesn't feel she should have to justify to you.

3. _"I check the accounts several times a day."_ You are overly obsessive. Maybe that's why she finds it difficult to share budget responsibilties with you.

4. _"...she just doesn't really have any interest at all"_ This bothers me, and is very unwise on her part. She seems to want financial freedom, but no responsibility. If you get run over by a bus tomorrow she will be completely lost. Counselling is recommended. One way to deal with this is for the spouses to take turns yearly paying all the bills. But it takes iron control on the part of the obsessive spouse not be constantly bugging the other when it is her turn.

5. I am not nomally an advocate of spouses keeping separate accounts. But if she has income, and it would be enough to cover her "personal" spending, maybe she should have a separate bank account, so she doesn't feel as if she has to justify every little purchase to you. 

6. Alternatively, agree to a budget for "non-accountable expenses" that she can live with, and transfer that amount monthly from the family account to her account.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

I've found that all this stuff is very individual, some swear by individual accounts and others, like myself and my wife, prefer joint accounts. (My wife and I have very similar views on money and spending.) We have 4 different cards, some in my name, some in hers - but each of us have a subsidiary card on the accounts. Therefore we each have charges on the cards and it doesn't look so much like checking up. However, even with individual cards, being married implies a certain amalgamation of finances. Unless in a rare case like perhaps a birthday gift being charged on a card, I can't see why any bills should be private.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Lots of good advice and ideas. Whatever solution you go with, it has to work for both of you.
Making any changes can be difficult as you have inertia. Also as the source of the money she may feel a bit powerless and like you're trying to rule over her.

My wife and I are completely open. I do track most of the stuff, but she knows where everything is, and can see whenever she wants.
I see it as a family money and a family budget, and we all need to understand and be informed to meet it. 

When we did our budget we had amounts for everything, and we all have to meet them. We don't have any undefined holes, we budgeted for everything, within those categories we can do whatever we want, but to extend them or make a new allocation, that has to be discussed.

We're also on an "allowance" system which is basically we each get so much money to spend on whatever we want without criticism. If that is a fear, then use cash. Maybe she's a bit embarrassed about what she spends money on and doesn't want to be judged.

Do you have a budget? Does she have full input into what it is? Maybe a bigger picture view could help. If there is an amount she can spend freely without impacting your overall finances, maybe that will work.
For example. We have a garden/landscaping budget this year, we allocated money, and my wife is spending it. We discussed how much we could afford, what would be needed, and what other things we would need to adjust. Now it's up to her to manage. I'm not even tracking it, if I was interested she'd tell me, but mostly it's her decision. She doesn't have to explain why we're buying this dirt instead of this other cheaper dirt or stuff like that. It really is frustrating to have every little decision questioned, and no matter how hard I try, I always seem to do so. So now I just look at the big picture of her project, if it meets our overall goals, I ignore the details.
Maybe if you can agree on her "no justification required" budget of $500-$2000 or whatever, (keep a running total so the months balance out) then she can have the financial freedom she wants, and you can relax knowing it will fit in the larger plans.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

When I was the sole breadwinner in the family, I often found my wife's spending habits annoying. In retrospect, her spending was perfectly reasonable. I have to blame myself for some of our money arguments. I was too cheap!

Now that we are a two-income family, I don't pay much attention to her spending. Our credit card bill is between 2K and 3K a month on average. Most of it is her spending. I rarely bat an eye when I check the CC bill. She spends quite a bit less than she earns. Our family savings rate is excellent.

To OP:

Could it be that you have an earnings problem rather than a spending problem?


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

^^^ KaeJS nailed this one...

Maybe it's my young perspective, but some of the comments here are downright painful to read. 
OP makes 95% of the money. This I would take to mean that the wife doesn't work at all, and that she might make some trivially small amount of money through a hobby or from helping out a friend here and there. (If the OP makes 500k+ and the wife has a career herself then none of this advice applies and I apologize)

In my opinion the fact that the wife is withholding the statements isn't really a red flag that she's hiding anything. The red flag is her little freak-out indicating that she's thinking "uh oh, he's finally caught onto the fact that I'm spending HIS money. I better do whatever I can to keep this gravy train going"



CadMan said:


> from her perspective she is sensitive to the fact that I earn most of the money and she doesn't want to feel like she has to "ask" for money or that I am controling her spending.


You realize this is illogical, right? Is this what she actually told you, that "she's sensitive"? I'm betting this is your own interpretation of the discussion, and I think the only thing she's likely "sensitive" to, is having conversations that will lead to your realization that SHE is spending YOUR money. How can she be "sensitive" to the situation and yet not want to "ask" you for money?



CadMan said:


> For what it's worth, she does not have to ask at all and has a lot of freedom about how and when she spends money. I tried to explain this to her in a reasonable, calm way that it is important to me to know where we are spending our money and I don't like the current arrangement, but it just turned into an argument.


For what it's worth??? Hey man you brought this problem to us! You don't have to defend the very person that you are having a problem with. I'm not trying to be mean to you CadMan, just brutally honest. This whole sentence of yours reeks of the problem. You hate what your wife is doing, but you can't see the solution to it so you contort, in your mind, her actions until they represent something that you can find acceptable. 

Can you give us a bit more info CadMan? Like, does your wife _actually_ work? how much do you each earn? Any kids, how old are they? How old are you/wife? How's the finances? Lots of savings? Massive mortgage? Is the CC/spending a new issue, or something that's been going on for years?

It's pretty hard to give any actionable advice if we don't know if you're 25 with a baby, 45 with 4 teenagers, or 65 with a menopausal wife.

The most generic advice I could give you at this point is - Realize that you are in control of your household finances. Stop giving your wife the benefit of the doubt, if she is not respecting you then she deserves no respect FROM you, after all. You WILL have to make some drastic changes to the way your wife spends money; she IS going to FREAK OUT about this, much worse than from your little toes-in-the-water discussion the other day. The ONLY way you will prevail is if you don't cave in to her screaming, crying, threatening or hitting.
Realize that if you don't fix this now, it will get worse, you will become more miserable, your wife will take more from you, forever. Only YOU can fix this, she will not change or start behaving how you want on her own.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

Doesn't sound like you have ever been married Peterk?


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

haha, nope! Only 25 and not on the agenda...


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## thebomb (Feb 3, 2012)

I recommend you dont have the conversation that peterk just recommended....it wont get you anywhere. 

As for us- I am the main breadwinner (by far). We always discuss where money is being spent and we have always had our own accounts. Married for 3 years and together for 14. Works for us. If I feel his spending is unreasonable I tell him. If he thinks mine is, he tells me. We decide together who is "right" or "wrong" and drop it from that point on. Money can be the root of all evil if you let it be and we dont let it be. We have a very happy marriage.


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## dcaron (Jul 23, 2009)

*When couples clash about money*

Here's a short video from Rob Carrick's site.
Summary.: spouses should have a separate and joint accounts. Divide up the joint expenses at pro-rata, and voila ...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...hen-couples-clash-about-money/article2230613/


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

I don't disagree with the OP's desire or right to see the CC statements, but checking the accounts several times a day seems a bit much. What is behind that behaviour? It seems to suggest some type of paranoia or fear, perhaps there is a distrust of the wife's spending.

I think couples need to talk about the bigger picture and what their goals are, both short and long term. By understanding and agreeing upon those, both can work towards those goals, and their independent spending becomes focused towards those other goals. At the same time, you have to balance in the cost of living a life. We all have certain expenses that may seem excessive to others. There are things we love and value more than others. Striking a healthy balance is important.

She seems like she's concerned that she'll be judged on some of her spending. I'm not saying it's justified (and I'm not saying it's not either), just that this seems to go beyond just money. The frequent checking concerns me. I'm not taking her side mind you, I think you have every right to know what's going on especially with the amounts involved, but I also think her resistance to share this information may in part be because of your behaviour as well. It's a compromise between the two that will resolve the issue.


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## sideways (Feb 20, 2012)

callyhan said:


> My SO and I maintain separate accounts. Our incomes are about 60/40 so we also split our expenses that way. I pay the mortgage out of my account, and he pays for all other bills out of his account and it's a pretty fair split. We pay into savings accounts/investments first with each paycheque, and then whatever is left over after expenses each month is our spending money. Usually around $300 each.
> 
> We meet once a month or so to pull up all our accounts and have a money talk. We talk about any upcoming big expenses, where our investments are at, how we are coming along with our goals for the year.
> 
> It was hard when we first moved in together to get our system down, but now that we are in a routine I couldn't imagine not having these talks. We keep our finances separate at this point in our life since we are still younger, and who knows if we will be together 10-20 years from now. I hope so, but things happen. It will be easier to divvy things up if we do ever split.


I understand this, but it makes me feel a little sad. Your and your husband's view on the future is probably wise and pragmatic. Good for both of you for finding an arrangement that works for your marriage, and for being honest about your uncertain feelings about the future.


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## sideways (Feb 20, 2012)

My opinion is that in a marriage, one would want the other to have full access to cc statements. Separate accounts and having some privacy feels like preparation for an eventual split, but that's just my conditioning.


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## orange (Oct 23, 2011)

I think this is a subject that has a lot of answers, because different things work for different people. One thing you didn't mention - which might provide more insight into the issue - is what HER role in the household is. We know YOU make the money and YOU "handle the finances"...but you suggested that was banking/investments/savings. Who handles the day to day purchasing for the household? And does she not work because she can't? chooses not to? is in school? is raising your children and keeping your house? The answer to that question makes a big difference as to why she may be spending what she is/acting the way she is/whether you are being reasonable or not.

If she handles the day to day home purchasing needs, her spending may be entirely reasonable and you may be clueless (I had a friend who thought his wife was a shopaholic so she had him make all purchases for the house, and he ended up spending MORE than she did)...but if she does not and those are all "personal" expenses, you may be overlooking a massive problem (like the 14 pairs of Jimmy Choos in her closet!). Hard for US to say without that info, but something you can certainly think about.

She may be secretive or may be offended by the fact that you want to see the bills because she may take it as a lack of trust/insecurity...which may be related to larger issues, or maybe she was previously financially independent and is now having a hard time being part of a team. ***NOTE: nothing in this post comes with any judgement...I am not saying anyone is justified or not in their actions, etc...simply throwing out ideas. *** Either way, I think discussion is in order...but NOT when it's time to pay the bills. If you see the bill payment and then discuss, she is likely to get defensive (seems to happen easily from what you write). If the discussion happens out of context, perhaps in a more general discussion rather than making it a discussion about her spending habits (e.g. you have a strong handle on the saving and investment side of things, but want a better idea of the overall household finances and what the spending is like, you need her to provide insight) she might be more receptive.

How you view the money is also an issue. You make it clear that YOU are the one financing the household...but why is that? do you have children that she is taking care of? if so, you absolutely need to value that contribution equally to yours, and understand that it's not your money, it's household money. Restrictions on her spending should be similar to restrictions on yours. If she is not working for other reasons, you need to discuss expectations regarding her contributions to the household, and things like restricting her spending more than your own may very well be reasonable.

Some people know everything about the other person's spending...others have suggested they talk about purchases if they are greater than a certain dollar amount, while still others don't care what the other person spends as long as the bills are paid. You will need to figure out what works best for you as a couple based on whether you can BOTH spend responsibly.

Perhaps you can have a joint household credit card on which household purchases are made, this way you can see what is being spent. For personal expenses, if you support her entirely so that you are required to pay for personal expenses, perhaps she can have a low limit card - whatever you are comfortable with her spending without having to discuss, say $500 - that she can use and still feel independent. Beyond that, she should have to fund purchases herself.

Like I said...different things work for different people...but I can assure you that broaching the subject with the "this is my money and I control it" attitude that a couple of posters have suggested is NOT a good idea! You seem reasonable and obviously willing to look for a solution in a contructive and collaborative way...good luck!


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## CadMan (Apr 16, 2010)

Wow, I didn't expect such a response to this thread. Lots of good, varied advice here (and some bad advice too!)

Several people asked for some more details about our situation: We're both 40 and have three kids aged 12, 8, and 5. I have a good paying job and my salary was just bumped to $220k plus bonuses. My wife teaches fitness classes and earns about $15k - she really enjoys what she does even though it doesn't pay well. I admit there are some underlying frustrations with the way she spends her time - a lot of time preparing choreographies, looking for music, chatting with friends with the same interests, posting photos to her Facebook page, doing free promo/charity shows, etc. If it sounds like I'm somewhat annoyed, I admit I am. Her time commitment is probably less than it was a couple of years ago, but she still probably averages 30 - 40 hours a week on a job that doesn't pay much. A lot of the time commitments are in the evenings or on the weekends, so I work long hours and spend a lot of time looking after the kids. 

This sounds like a lot of complaining and is probably a topic for another thread. In terms of the issue with the credit cards, I think the main concern is that I want to know how the money is spent. Some of what she is spending on is groceries, some is her own personal stuff she doesn’t want me to know about and some of it I just don’t know what it is. I don’t think I’m unreasonable about spending and think we both should have the ability to have personal spending that is “blow money” that you don’t have to worry about. 

Maybe the answer is to have one joint credit card that we both see the statements for (it the past, she’s argued that she shops at Costco and needs her one American Express card to get points – I’m not a big believer in credit card promotions (or credit cards for that matter) as I think the rewards you get are trivial in the grand scheme of financial planning.

Just to give you a flavour of things, in the month of March to date there have been the following payments come out of our joint account:

March 6 - $404.61 to American Express
March 14 – $458.58 to American Express
March 19 - $181 to MasterCard
March 21 - $622.29 to American Express
March 26 - $550.71 to American Express

I haven’t seen any of these statements, so don’t know what they are for. In the month of March she either had little or no income come into the joint account (there’s one deposit for $240 and I can’t recall what that was for). The most recent credit card payment came out today (after our argument) and I wasn’t expecting it, so now the account will be overdrawn because the mortgage payment comes out on Wednesday and I get paid on Thursday.


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

My two cents:

Figure out for yourself what $ you need as a family for saving/mortgage/bills/groceries/miscellaneous etc.

Decide how the rest is to be divided up as fun money or whatever (her share, your share, allowance for the kids).

Her share, your share and the kids allowances are free to be spent on anything with no accountability.

Anything above and beyond this should be discussed.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Hmmm. Very interesting post with details. I don't have any advice, just questions, and they're all rhetorical. 

If she made what you make, would her spending still be a problem for you? 

What if her spending was scaled up to represent the same proportions? (I think you said she spends about $24K on CCs per year, while making $15K. So what if she were making $220 but spending $350K? (That's the same proportions, but different absolute numbers.) 

What if she were making $220K and spending $24K, but still had her weekends and evenings taken up by her job? 

I'm no psychologist or marriage counsellor, but you sound pretty frustrated. And frankly, in your shoes, I probably would be, too. It sounds to me like the money stuff is symptomatic of other issues. You're resentful that you (seem to be) making the lion's share of the money while also shouldering a lot of the childcare responsibilities while your wife is doing something that essentially amounts to a hobby. (I'm sorry if that sounds harsh.) 

If the arrangement worked for you and you were happy to continue to engage in it, then there'd be nothing to discuss. But it really sounds like it isn't working for you - the amount she makes, the amount she spends, the amount of time she takes relative to the financial compensation for those hours, and her relative secrecy about her spending.


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

CadMan said:


> This sounds like a lot of complaining and is probably a topic for another thread. In terms of the issue with the credit cards, I think the main concern is that I want to know how the money is spent. Some of what she is spending on is groceries, some is her own personal stuff she doesn’t want me to know about and some of it I just don’t know what it is.


1. Get yourself an mbna smartcash mastercard
2. When you receive the card, setup automatic payment to your joint account
3. Ask mbna for a second card, give the second card to your wife
4. Monitor the spending with their web interface

That what i did, except the card go through my personal account since I don't have a joint account.

At least you will earn some cashback on the spending


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

I've heard of every system working and not working.
I think that you have to have a discussion about the budget and the plan. You likely need to decide on an amount that she can spend freely without telling you.

Perhaps she needs a joint or other card for groceries and household spending, then a budget of $x for misc "her stuff" that she doesn't have to share.
That freedom is important to a lot of people. I do suggest that that the personal allowances are similar in value, and that hers is not simply "what she brings in"

It has to be a reasonable amount that lets both of you feel comfortable, an amount you can handle being spent, and an amount that she feels she isn't being unreasonably restricted. 

I think it's also important that she is aware, or at least has the opportunity to see all the other finances.

Let us know what works for you.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

The charges for March were $2217.19. If credit cards are used for food, gas, household items and children's many expenses then that is quite reasonable. If it is only your wife's discretionary spending, and this is a typical month, then IMO that's moving into expensive territory. I don't see this being about you earning more money or being resentful, as some do. I think you would have just as much right to see the significant expenses if the income situations were reversed. In fact, I would turn it around as a respect issue on the part of your wife. I can't imagine not allowing my wife to see my credit card statements.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Spidey - I don't disagree with you, not at all. I also can't imagine having secret spending in my relationship or feeling uncertain or resentful about being asked to share spending details with my spouse. In fact, as an adult woman, I'm kind of shocked and dismayed at the described behaviour -- as in, don't suggest that "this is how women are" (not that anyone has, but sometimes these threads devolve into discussions about how much women love shoes, even diamond-encrusted ones, and "getting their hair done" etc.). I don't think this is how adults should behave with each other. If it "works" in the relationship, my comments are meaningless - but if one partner is upset, it doesn't work. 

(I was just thinking about whether it is the spending in isolation, or her earnings relative to her spending, or her earnings relative to him, or the fact that she spends more than she earns AND she takes "family time" in order to do so...there's a lot going on in the OP's posts.)


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## square one (Jan 19, 2010)

Cadman, does it bother your wife that the account will be overdrawn when the mortgage payment comes out? Does she even know? If she isn't aware of how damaging her spending is, then that may be the place to start. Does her spending prevent contributions to, say, the kids' RESP accounts? Perhaps if you can both agree what the important family goals are, then you can come up with a plan to make that happen, with her on board. Then, hopefully, you can both agree to an amount that she can have as 'fun money' that she will not need to account for or feel nagged about from you. Also, if she cannot keep limits on her use of the CC, would she acknowledge this and agree to take out a weekly amount of cash and agree to stop using the CC?

This conversation needs to be in a non-accusatory way where you both agree neutrally to review your finances and agree on your goals together with your commitment that you are not trying to prevent her from being able to spend some money. She also needs to feel that her income has nothing to do with this -this is about family goals. You need to separate out your frustration about looking after the kids so much -this is another matter and not for this conversation.

If she is still unwilling to make some effort to achieve family goals like her kids' future education, or prevent overdraft to pay the mortgage, then you have a very big problem. Sorry. But start with what she feels would be important to her (that's why I mention the kids' RESPs as an example, but perhaps she would like to travel more when the kids get older etc. -any goal she would get on board with and be willing to spend less now to achieve the goal later)

My husband doesn't pay attention to the accounts, so occasionally I need to say, "Hey, honey, the chequing account is really low and we have that cheque coming out soon, so can we both not spend anything else until next payday?" He gets on board with that. Also, our agreed upon goals and mortgage all come out of our account the day after payday so we are paying ourselves first. Maybe you can do that with your mortgage payment...


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

What we do at my house is separate joint and personal spending. We both make an income but mine is much higher than my husband's, so I cover all the joint expenses and he covers his own personal expenses. I fund the joint account, and whenever a transaction goes out of the account that I don't recognize, I ask about it (mainly because he has been known to accidentally take money from the joint when he meant to take it from his own account). We use a MBNA Smartcash of which we have 2 copies for most household expenses, but he also uses a Canadian Tire card when he buys stuff at Canadian Tire, and will pay that bill from the joint account. 

In your situation, I can understand why you're frustrated. It feels like you're working long and hard to bring home the bacon, and she's flitting around doing fun stuff that brings in a low amount of money (and then you have to take care of the kids on evenings/weekends to boot). My situation is sort of similar - I don't like my job, and my husband quit a fairly good-paying job to become a freelance video editor, which pays peanuts and is unreliable. But he makes up for it by being very supportive - makes my lunch for me every morning, has dinner ready when I come home from work most of the time, cleans the house, etc. To me this completely makes up for the income disparity. It also helps that we're both very open about the household money and all joint expenditures are discussed. 

If I were in your shoes, I think I would ask for all household expenses to go on a joint card so you can be aware and budget for what's going on. It sounds like she's completely oblivious to the household finances if she paid a credit card in such a way that your account will be overdrawn due to an upcoming mortgage payment. You can also tell her you'll take care of paying the household credit cards so that this situation won't arise again. I would also ask her how much $ she feels she needs for personal expenditures. If it's less than she brings home, have her deposit her paycheck in her personal account instead of the joint, and spend all personal items from there, so she'll feel she has privacy for her personal stuff. If it's more than she brings home, I guess you'd have to have a hard discussion about whether she really needs that much, etc. But I would think 15k/year on personal items would be enough for most people.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Spudd said:


> I would also ask her how much $ she feels she needs for personal expenditures. If it's less than she brings home, have her deposit her paycheck in her personal account instead of the joint, and spend all personal items from there, so she'll feel she has privacy for her personal stuff. If it's more than she brings home, I guess you'd have to have a hard discussion about whether she really needs that much, etc. But I would think 15k/year on personal items would be enough for most people.


(Not that I disagree with this advice, I don't - but) this presumes that all the money she makes is "for her," and all household and family expenses (and savings goals) are to be funded by her husband. Is this what the OP actually wants? If that's what he wants and he's OK with that, then great; but I'm not sure why 100% of the load should fall on him. (And in fact I should probably just stop reading this thread, because this conversation apparently pushes a million buttons for me.)


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## Patience (Mar 8, 2012)

CadMan said:


> A lot of the time commitments are in the evenings or on the weekends, so I work long hours and spend a lot of time looking after the kids.


Do you enjoy the time you spend with your kids? If not, maybe there is something more enjoyable you could be doing with them. It would make me generally sad if I considered spending time with my kids as a chore.... even if I have to change their dirty diapers, listen to their screaming, etc.

Looking at the expense to income ratio (<10%), $24k out of $235k isn't that terrible. Many people give 10% to charity without a second thought, not that your wife is a charity.

You should probably consider the counselling route. It's an admission that your relationship is worth fighting for and is healthy for every couple.


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## RoR (Jan 18, 2012)

We used to fight about money, he wanted to keep his separate. I was NOT ok with that since I was raised that what you make goes to your family and doens't get sliced up. I split everything 50/50 and showed him he was broke at the end of the month and in the hole to me (I made more then). So we moved to a share everything scenario and it works. 

CC's are joint, I track everything. If either of us puts more than $20 (yes, I'm serious) on the the cc we mention it. We do have an allowance - every weekly paycheque of his I deposit I take out $100 cash. $40 for him, same for me and $20 for the kids in case they needs something during the week. That's our $ to spend as we want. I think most goes to supporting the local Tim Hortons.  

The only non-disclosure I think we have is sometimes I save more and don't tell him about it. I don't usually tell him when I increase our mortgage payments. It's led to a couple fights about how we have no financial fun. But, we do. He just forgets. 

Hope you works thinks out with your wife. She's probably not wanting to show you her statement cause she thinks she's going to get grilled like a kid. She needs to trust that you're not going to blow up. If you want 100% full disclosure, I suggest that when you see where the $ goes, hold your tongue and find something, anything to compliment her on. "Oh that $65 was for your new sweater? That looked great on you when we went xxx." Anything positive. Then once that trust is established the discussions about how to reduce spending won't turn into fights. 

GL


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## RoR (Jan 18, 2012)

Sorry if I missed the ages of your kids - daycare at a centre costs about $50/day. Childcare isn't cheap and the value of a SAHM (stay at home mom) is often overlooked. 

I moved my kid from a centre at $54/day to a home daycare at $30/day. 

And I agree with Spidey - if the $2200 is groceries, gas, a lunch out, kids clothes, gifts (kid birthday parties, gift for a parent), cell phone bill, etc. It's not bad at all with an income over 100K.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I had a similar situation where I was the sole breadwinner. We never managed to get control of things until her Dad died and she received a significant inheritance. Then we kept that amount separate (even though I managed it) and she spent it as she saw fit. Common household expenses came from my earnings.

Since then I have divorced, remarried and retired. Each situation deserves its own solutions. Right now, my wife has her account that she can spend at her chosing even though I manage all the money. She spends on things that I wouldn't but I am OK with that. Once in a while I question large amounts but it is always in a non-judgemental fashion. Since retirement, she has become much more responsible with her money. I think giving her the benefit of the doubt has done wonders for her caring about money.

I think you might have better luck with a marriage counsellor than a financial counsellor. What you are dealing with is not financial but just a symptom of a larger issue. Good luck with that.


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## Oilers82 (Jan 17, 2011)

RoR said:


> Sorry if I missed the ages of your kids - daycare at a centre costs about $50/day. Childcare isn't cheap and the value of a SAHM (stay at home mom) is often overlooked.
> 
> I moved my kid from a centre at $54/day to a home daycare at $30/day.
> 
> And I agree with Spidey - if the $2200 is groceries, gas, a lunch out, kids clothes, gifts (kid birthday parties, gift for a parent), cell phone bill, etc. It's not bad at all with an income over 100K.


Its not the money amounts that are the issue here, its the secrecy. It may not necessarily mean cheating but it certainly represents some untold issue on her part. A marriage should be open and honest and there's no reason to hide expenses like that. Maybe its as simple as her desire for some "independence" since she is living a $200k/yr lifestyle yet making $15k/yr, she may feel quite dependent deep down and this is her way of reacting to it. And we see a bit of resentment on your part...working long hours and having her not be around to fulfill wifely duties (while she is off engaging in her hobby), hence you feel you are doing the bread-winning AND the childcare/household duties.

I think that some counselling indeed would be very useful in this case to prevent the problems from getting worse from here on in.

I guess I'm lucky, my wife and I spend money with strikingly similar habits. I currently make probably 85% of the money, in the near future I will be making 40-45% of the money. We've always just had a single joint chequing account. and one single savings account. We both top up our RRSPs and TFSAs from this account. We have one credit card, I have the primary she has the subsidiary. The only thing that is separate is my corporate/business account. We figure everything is a family expense. If either of us needs something for ourselves, its family money well spent since our own well-being and happiness contributes to the family wellness/happiness. Her family/friends are mine and vice versa so presents, dinners paid for, etc are all communal...its from both of us. We don't have a hard limit of spending over which we need eachother's permission, but we typically talk to eachother about bigger ticket items (ie over $500).

The only part which is a bit trickier now is buying eachother gifts lol...I guess if it really has to be secret we can buy with cash.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

And there's the rub. The OP's last post reveals a ton of other deep-rooted issues. While different arrangements can work for different couples, it's clear the current arrangement is not working for the OP.

There are some resentment issues, perhaps because of the carefree lifestyle one partner seems to get to live while the other seemingly slaves away. I think they should consider some form of therapy, as there are some larger issues here. The joint credit card may provide knowledge about what the spending is and whether it's legit or extreme, but it still won't address the lifestyle differences and inequalities in not only income, but also responsibilities.

What does the rest of the financial picture look like? Are you two saving a lot for retirement? Are you aggressively paying down the mortgage? Saving for kids education? These are all bigger picture goals that need to be discussed and agreed upon, as they will shape a lot of the smaller spending items. It may help provide focus to your wife's spending as well as work habits.


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## dcaron (Jul 23, 2009)

financialnoob said:


> ... the current arrangement is not working for the OP.


Agreed.


financialnoob said:


> There are some resentment issues, perhaps because of the carefree lifestyle one partner seems to get to live while the other seemingly slaves away. I think they should consider some form of therapy, as there are some larger issues here.
> ... address the lifestyle differences and inequalities in not only income, but also responsibilities.


This really sounds like the issue. I really hope the wife cares about the family and kids as much as he does ...



financialnoob said:


> What does the rest of the financial picture look like? Are you two saving a lot for retirement? Are you aggressively paying down the mortgage? Saving for kids education? These are all bigger picture goals that need to be discussed and agreed upon, as they will shape a lot of the smaller spending items. It may help provide focus to your wife's spending as well as work habits.


I think this is the best advice yet ...


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

...I also wonder about the wife's spending sending the account into overdraft. I'm not sure overdraft *in isolation* is a problem - but the OP is checking account balances 3x per day, seems to know how much his wife spends on her AMEX in a given month, and yet doesn't retain enough cash in the account to cover this spending -- and he characterized going into overdraft as a problem. This seems a bit odd to me. If you're going to monitor the accounts so closely, why don't you ensure they don't get overdrawn (if you care about being overdrawn?)


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

The point raised about the larger financial goals was important. if these goals are being met, the issues raised would seem to be simply irritants. If you are not making progress towards your bigger financial goals or cannot agree on what these should be, the problem is more fundamental and must be dealt with.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

That is why I recommended a marriage counselor. It is not a financial problem, that is just a symptom.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I mentioned this on here kcowan and you are one of the few people who seem to get it. It is always easy for us to give the financial advice and tell someone what to do but if this is just a symptom then our advice is almost useless unless the real underlying problem or problems are dealt with.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

This is total speculation and maybe not called for but some of the signs are there.1)credit card spending(you don't see the transactions)2)facebook/internet time"away from you" ect.3)She works wknds & nights.....I don't want to be out of line but it sounds like she is having an affair....to be blunt.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

No, we have never kept seperate accounts. The only exception has been investments where we set up demand loans to deal with CRA income attribution rules and reduct our income burden.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

donald said:


> This is total speculation and maybe not called for but some of the signs are there.1)credit card spending(you don't see the transactions)2)facebook/internet time"away from you" ect.3)She works wknds & nights.....I don't want to be out of line but it sounds like she is having an affair....to be blunt.


Donald, is this you???


















That's a heck of a leap to make. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it's quite the thing to suggest about a couple you barely know.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Not trying to jump to conclusions(i even said i might be out of line in my post)From the op's 2nd post it sounds like it.
-unexplianed cc expenses
-she is working long hrs on "night & wknds" & it seems like there is a disconect with her yearly pay
-Op work all day & is taking care of the kids @ night
-op spouse is elusive the whole story [email protected] the very least op's wife is acting like a spoiled child imo-op is Carrying all the wieght.Iv'e seen this played out with people i know and it sounds like that....realtionship is red-lining{I'm speculating of course}This is the 21st century and affairs are'nt unheard of.Why is she so secretive?maybe hotel bills and unexplianed wine bottles ect.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

I know what you're saying. I'm not saying it's impossible either. Just that there could be other things at work as well.

Marriages rely on trust and communication, and there are very few instances where jumping to the worst possible conclusion helps a situation much. That's all.


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## barry.choi (Apr 2, 2012)

Personally our wife and I have shared accounts as well as personal accounts. All our savings e.g. vacation/presents/house funds goes into joint. Our personal accounts is where our individual pay cheques are deposited. All of our savings are auto transfers so we don't even think about it.

To keep a balance we have agreed amounts that we use for ourselves no questions asked and that's what keeps the money talk easy. The way we see it as long as our saving obligations have been met what's leftover is for personal use. Of course I personally am very frugal so I try to save as much extra as possible.

I may not agree with all my wife's spending but again if the savings goals are met, I'm pretty happy. It's not worth the battle.

It should be noted that when we got married I made it a priority to educated her about money and finances. Once she got a grasp of it all we've rarely disagreed.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

donald said:


> Not trying to jump to conclusions(i even said i might be out of line in my post)From the op's 2nd post it sounds like it.
> -unexplianed cc expenses
> -she is working long hrs on "night & wknds" & it seems like there is a disconect with her yearly pay
> -Op work all day & is taking care of the kids @ night
> -op spouse is elusive the whole story [email protected] the very least op's wife is acting like a spoiled child imo-op is Carrying all the wieght.Iv'e seen this played out with people i know and it sounds like that....realtionship is red-lining{I'm speculating of course}This is the 21st century and affairs are'nt unheard of.Why is she so secretive?maybe hotel bills and unexplianed wine bottles ect.


Though this may be a possibility, I don't think it is the most obvious. Both my spouse and I work or go out in the evenings without any explanation, only that the kids are taken care of. Neither has a real idea of what the person is specifically speninding money on unless it's large purchases, we both have our own credit card, and appreciate our own sense of independence. Though the spouse is 'not working' she is taking care of the kids during the days. This can be heck of a lot more mind draining and difficult than going to work. She may very well view that he has had his break from the family in the day, and she needs one at night, or perhaps she feels that he isn't putting in his share with the kids, and this is her way of forcing a bond. To say one is acted like a spoiled brat is no more valid than another jumping to a conclusion that one is a controlling spouse. There are at least three sides to this story, his, hers, and the truth, plus all of ours (which don't matter any ways)

This could be a multitude of issues. The only thing I can say is based on the ops posts, the money is the symptom and the card that he is holding. There are other root causes that they need to figure out together. He can only control his own actions. So what is it that is really bothering him, and what is it that he wants. She needs to do the same, and hopefully that work out a winning solution.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

No matter what the other circumstances, of which we're not aware, I'm absolutely appalled at the thought of a wife (especially one who contributes close to nothing to the family finances) thinking she has the right to spend large amounts of money while refusing to disclose what she's spending it on to her husband. As many of you have said, it's obvious that the OP is resentful, as he has every right to be, and that her attidue is symptomatic of deeper problems in their marriage. The OP isn't blameless; he has allowed this situation to develop and he has to start taking responsibility for it. I think he should tell her that the situation is serious to him - that it's reached the stage where it is threatening their marriage. If she still refuses to discuss it rationally, I would suggest that he start depositing his pay cheques in a new account in his name only and refuse to pay her bills until they have reviewed them together, agreed on some ground rules, and agreed to meet at least once a month to review the situation.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

CadMan said:


> 1. For what it's worth, *she does not have to ask at all* and has a lot of freedom about how and when she spends money.
> 
> 2. I tried to explain this to her in a reasonable, calm way that it is important to me to know where we are spending our money and I don't like the current arrangement, but it just turned into an argument. Am I being unreasonable?


1. Maybe that is the problem and so you're partly responsible for her attitude now.

2. I don't think you're unreasonable at all; if all the above mentioned is correct, your wife is the one showing complete lack of communication & understanding. You both should be fully aware of all major spending, regardless of who is doing the earning/spending.

I think 'some' women expect too much of their hard-working husbands & complain/spend too much.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

It's clearly not working for you, so it's a problem.
I think a respectful discussion must happen.

I think the following are appropriate guidelines for my relationship. Her is being used as the "not you" poster due to the gender of the OP.
It is okay for her to spend some money without your knowledge on what it is being spent on, even if you earn all the money. If she's an equal partner, she can spend too.
It is reasonable for her to disclose "large" spending with you, even if she earns all the money, disclosing major spending isn't unreasonable.
Her spending shouldn't ruin the budget, at least without her justifying it.


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## JustAGuy (Feb 5, 2012)

It's been a week since we last heard from the OP... I'd be interested to hear whether the OP has had any sort of discussion in the meantime or if people are speculating on affairs needlessly.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

JustAGuy said:


> It's been a week since we last heard from the OP... I'd be interested to hear whether the OP has had any sort of discussion in the meantime or if people are speculating on affairs needlessly.


Agree. the thread needs input from OP. We have moved well beyond the original question into the realm of speculation.


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## 44545 (Feb 14, 2012)

Late to the party but I'd like to hear from CadMan how this is going and I'll throw my 2-cents in.



CadMan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In our family I earn most of the income (probably 90-95%).
> I take care of all of the financial matters for the family (banking, taxes, investments, RRSPs, TFSAs, RESPs, etc.).
> This isn't because I don't want my wife to share this responsibility, she just doesn't really have any interest at all.


The "price" for her not wanting to have anything to do with managing finances is:

You need to build a budget (with spouses input), get consensus, and track that it's followed.
She needs to accept the budget she's agreed to and work within its constraints, communicating clearly if there's a gap.



> The issue that has come to a head for us is that she has 3 separate credit cards - she receives the statements electronically and three times a month I see the money come out to pay the credit cards (usually $500 - $2000) and quite frankly it bugs me. Not because I want to control all the money and keep my thumb on her, but because I'm careful with the finances (I check the accounts several times a day) and I don't like this hole in the family finances that I know very little about.


Until the budget is defined in writing and everyone has bought in to it, you can't really be too upset with your partner. 

Come up with a budget together.
Post it clearly. (refrigerator door, with spending thermometers - or MS Money, if you prefer electronic)
Stick to it.



> I've made comments about how I'd like to see the statements for these credit cards over the last while and this evening sat down with my wife to explain that this was bothering me and I'd like to talk about how we resolve it. Her reaction was very negative to say the least - I think from her perspective she is sensitive to the fact that I earn most of the money and she doesn't want to feel like she has to "ask" for money or that I am controling her spending...


Again, the antidote to that is to be collaborative in setting the budget. Ask for her input and show her the numbers. Be humble. Make the discussion evidence based, not emotional.

Statements like "to afford that trip to Cuba next spring, we need to save an extra $300/month this year" would be good. (insert your own objectives and conditions)
Statements like, "we're spending too much!" are NOT going to work - even if they're true.



> So, thoughts from others on the forum? Am I being unreasonable? Would it be better to have completely separate accounts (I really think this complicates things and probably leads to more marital strife!)


With a single income household, separate accounts, IMO, aren't going to work. You are partners, unless and until you decide you aren't.

Full disclosure: I'm half of a "DINKS" (dual income, no kids) household. We separate our finances (including investments) but are on EXACTLY the same page - frugal living, index investing, transparent finances, splitting shared expenses like rent. For us, having autonomy gives us satisfaction to make financial decisions without consulting each other, knowing we're moving in the same direction.


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## loggedout (Dec 30, 2009)

I've never been married but my current girlfriend is 50k in debt; mostly due to schooling, fees from a previous divorce, and a car. I don't have any. She's sensitive to this difference and assured me that if we were to get married, her debt would be her own responsibility. Still, it's a nagging concern for me. We've discussed these things openly so she hasn't hid anything from me and I can respect that, but I fear we will argue over money and our differing spending habits. She's not a big time spender but even then I'm a lot more frugal than her. I don't know.


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## Brenner (Jan 17, 2012)

I think the bottom line is that secrets are not good for a marriage, especially when it comes to finances. I think its up to every couple to figure out a financial system that works for each other but full disclosure at some point has to be a part of it. I don't track every dollar my wife spends but if I was curious about something I'd expect an honest answer. 

As far as how my wife and I structure our finances:

We have joint account that pays for all family expenses. I differentiate family expenses from shared expenses in that we consider a lot of expenses, for example prescription meds or christmas/wedding/baby gifts to others, as a family expenses even though its not necessarily shared. Basically this covers 95% of expenses, almost the only thing it doesn't cover is our individual hobbies. We maintain individual accounts, savings, and a credit card, where our individual earnings are deposited. We each transfer an amount into the joint account to cover the family expenses. Ideally this would be equal but because of different income levels its usually slanted towards one or the other. Eventually we may just move to solely the joint account as often it feels silly moving monies around, but we haven't had any problems with the current arrangement. The key thing is we openly discuss our family financial goals and spending habits. Also, having her maintain her own accounts keeps her engaged in the finances. It would very easy for us to slip into a situation were I became 100% fully responsible for our family finances and investments but I am of the belief it should be a shared responsibility regardless of who is generating the income because in the end the finances will dictate many lifestyle choices, i.e how many children we have, the size of house we buy, when we can retire, the vacations we can take, etc.


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## RAD9 (May 24, 2012)

For those that have kept separate finances/bank accounts, and contributed to expenses/assets in different ratios (e.g. say one spouse contributes 70% while the other contributes 30% due to differing incomes)... how does the law treat division of assets should the couple split? Is it still more or less equally?


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## loggedout (Dec 30, 2009)

Does anyone have a prenuptial agreement with their spouse?

My gf actually brought up the idea for if and when we get married, that she would be open to it.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

RAD9 said:


> For those that have kept separate finances/bank accounts, and contributed to expenses/assets in different ratios (e.g. say one spouse contributes 70% while the other contributes 30% due to differing incomes)... how does the law treat division of assets should the couple split? Is it still more or less equally?


It depends on whether you are legally married or not. If you are legally married, in general terms unless you work out something different with your spouse upon divorce OR a court ruling says otherwise, each spouse is entitled to an equal share of the *rise* and *fall* in value of all assets during the marriage. 

So *debt* is split equally, as are assets. The proportion of income spent by each spouse in acquiring the assets is generally unimportant. Marriage is (for better or for worse) assumed to be an economic partnership in which each spouse has an equal share upon dissolution of the marriage, irrespective of the actual contribution levels. 

(There are some exceptions to this rule but they are few.)


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

By the way -- one implication is that if your marriage is in trouble, and one spouse goes out and acquires a lot of debt, while you are still married (and not legally separated), *you are 100% liable for the debt acquired by your spouse *and even if you split up, after the debt is acquired, you are going to be splitting up responsibility for that debt and you are likely going to have to take 50% of it on.


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## RAD9 (May 24, 2012)

MoneyGal said:


> By the way -- one implication is that if your marriage is in trouble, and one spouse goes out and acquires a lot of debt, while you are still married (and not legally separated), *you are 100% liable for the debt acquired by your spouse *and even if you split up, after the debt is acquired, you are going to be splitting up responsibility for that debt and you are likely going to have to take 50% of it on.


Wow... that is really interesting about the shared debt aspect.

Loggedout brought about the idea of a prenup a couple of posts up. What are the limitations of a prenup? Can it only be used for assets? Or can debt be stipulated as well?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

financialnoob said:


>


<off topic>
LOL!
That movie was on TV last week. I had a few laughs. Great movie, timeless.
Let's jump to conclusions. 
</off topic>


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

LOVE THAT MOVIE. We just watched it last week as well!


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

loggedout said:


> Does anyone have a prenuptial agreement with their spouse?
> 
> My gf actually brought up the idea for if and when we get married, that she would be open to it.


She must have some large equity in the offing?!


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> (There are some exceptions to this rule but they are few.)


One exception in Ontario is any inheritance that either spouse receives. They are kept separate.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Only if the funds are not "intermingled" with jointly-held funds. If the inheritance is (for example) used to pay off a mortgage or as part of a downpayment, or even if it is deposited into a joint bank account, it is no longer separate from the joint funds and becomes common property which is subject to division.


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## loggedout (Dec 30, 2009)

Actually, she has debt. I don't. She's sensitive to the difference, and doesn't want her "mistakes" to be mine.


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

MoneyGal, in all cases is a spouses debt shared?

That seems kind of ridiculous. Of course it wouldn't be that big of a shock considering how absolutely mind numbingly stupid the law is in more or less every facet of these issues.

So if I rack up $200,000 of debt, cash it all out and play dumb like I spent it all... I only have to pay back $100,000 and my spouse gets saddled with the rest? Do prenups come into play or does this trump it?


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Not in all cases. As a general rule, the spouse who racked up the debt is liable for it, and spouses don't get to split the debt they came into the relationship with. 

But! important provisos: if the debt is joint - it's paid for on a joint HELOC or joint credit card or joint chequing account, each spouse is 100% responsible for it. And irrespective of everything I've just written, _credit card companies and other creditors will come after both spouses_ until the entire debt is repaid...even after the divorce is final. 

And! whether or not I'm paying for my spouses' debt, because family property is "equalized" upon divorce, they are getting to offset their contribution to the equalization of assets by accumulating that debt. 

Sample google hits on "divorce spouse debt:" http://www.ottawadivorce.com/joint-debts.htm

http://www.benmor.com/prop.php

Both indicate that debts acquired during the marriage are equalized. 

Note the distinctions between the states "married" and "separated" and "divorced." Marriage is first and foremost, from a legal perspective, an economic partnership in which both parties have an equal claim and stake.


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

Another reason not to get married!


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

It's the flip side of "why can't I get half my common-law spouse's assets?" Well, you aren't responsible for half their debt, either.


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## Cruiser (May 27, 2012)

loggedout said:


> I've never been married but my current girlfriend is 50k in debt; mostly due to schooling, fees from a previous divorce, and a car. I don't have any. She's sensitive to this difference and assured me that if we were to get married, her debt would be her own responsibility. Still, it's a nagging concern for me. We've discussed these things openly so she hasn't hid anything from me and I can respect that, but I fear we will argue over money and our differing spending habits. She's not a big time spender but even then I'm a lot more frugal than her. I don't know.


I was the same with my wife. She brought 60k of debt into the marriage - in the end, we just refinanced the mortgage (which I brought in) and co-mingled everything. This way, we looked at everything from a joint perspective and did everything that made the most sense for us. Now, less than a year later, that 60k (and more) is gone from the mortgage because we have been focused on paying it down. Having the common goal really helps us to focus and do what makes sense for both of us.

She and I still have slightly different views when it comes to frugality - but I have realised that she values different things to me. She won't say anything if I go out and spend $100 on tools...so I shouldn't give her trouble everytime she goes out and spends $100 on kitchen stuff, or on makeup. It is ok to spend some money...we just talk about the bigger things.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

TRM, MG: Yes, that is a timeless classic. Though in hindsight, I probably should have posted this:










I wonder how the OP made out with all of this. Would love to hear from them, if only to confirm they are still alive after "the talk."


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

financialnoob +1. 

My boyfriend and I have also had the pre-nup talk. No wedding plans yet, but we did do the pre-nup talk. Writing that, I must admit, that sounds a little weird haha.


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## tombiosis (Dec 18, 2010)

all I can add is to be careful with this stuff. Its a topic that is near and not so dear to my heart. After 2 failed "common law" marriages, I know first hand what is at stake. Luckily the rules for "common law" differ from actual marriage, at least in Ontario. I spent 8 years helping to get a partner out of debt which she had left over from her first marriage. Once the debt was gone, the relationship ended abruptly (adultery), and I found myself starting over financially at 40 years old. I figure it set me back about 15 years in my financial plan...live and learn. 
Needless to say, I am now "twice bitten" and thus "triple shy" when it comes to marriage...common law or otherwise.


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