# When do people leave Questrade, if ever?



## digitalatlas (Jun 6, 2015)

Hi,

Sometimes I read some disparaging remarks about Questrade. Well, actually, I read good things when it was new, then less good things when it was a little more seasoned (poor customer service, etc. compared to banks, so people switched), and more recently, better things about how they've improved.

Anyway, I read a comment somewhere that someone said something to the effect that, higher-value people on this forum switch away from Questrade at some point in favour of a bank.

I've been with Questrade for about over 5 years, now my wife and I have something over 200k accross several RRSP, spousal RRSP, TFSA, RESP accounts. I just couch potato everything (5 ETFs) and rebalance periodically (maybe buy new ETFs more often cause it's free), I've made a few transfers and had a hand full of interactions with the email help, never called in. They have always been OK, I'm not too demanding of customer service but never called in. I considered pulling Norbert's Gambit earlier this year, didn't end up doing it, but I've read that it's not to challenging even through email.

Anyway, at 100k, the banks start reducing their commissions to $about 10. Now, I still feel like...why pay more? Especially since I'm not overly sophisticated and don't need all sorts of Level 2 stats or whatever. I thought I could pick stocks, even based on fundamentals, and I think I'm reasonably bright, but....come on, really I want to live my life and unless I have a HUGE amount to invest (which I don't) in one stock, what does it matter if it goes up....20% even...so couch potato it is.

Do others prefer to move to banks when you reach a certain portfolio size? Do you feel like it's safer? And how big a portfolio are we talking here? I'm not too worried about Questrade, should I be? I don't want to pay more fees than I need to. Plus, I have several accounts and moving is not just a matter of moving one or two accounts. I feel like the banks charge more because they're banks, people feel safer, but doesn't mean better service for what I need.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I know next to nothing about Questrade, but who are they exactly? Ownership? Backing? Lower transaction costs seem to be the primary driver but at what point does that no longer matter? That will vary for everyone, but at some point an investor may like the convenience of their banking and investments being all in one place. 

The big bank discount brokerages have very low limits now on account sizes and I believe ~$10 commissions are the norm, except for certain cases where account size or trading volume attracts a lower commission tier. I don't know anyone personally with a Questrade account nor do I know anyone who has exited Questrade. However, the new kid on the block, WealthSimple Trade, with 0$ commissions may be the one to really shake up the discount brokerage industry. They are not yet operational but it will interesting to see how well they do over the next year or so.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I've used BMO Investorline, Interactive Brokers and Questrade. Everything is with Questrade now even though I surpassed the $100k long ago. I see Questrade constantly improving and leaving big banks in the '90s. Their mission statement is to revolutionize financial services using technology through innovation and continuous improvement which they live up to in my opinion. If you are old and annoyed by tech change you might prefer to just pay the hidden fees at big banks for the sake of comfort and stagnation. Even so Questrade is forcing the big banks to change, albeit years behind and dragging their feet and with new hidden fees just because. The way the big banks handle foreign currency is a farce (USD dividends are paid in CAD with hidden exchange fees etc)

Interactive Brokers being from the US had lower fees, more powerful features and higher security. If Questrade gave me any concern or trouble I would be switching to IB. I found that IB was more advanced and powerful than I needed and caused minor tax complication because they are US based and seem to fumble a bit with Canadian tax reports. IB's interface is a bit over complicated for what I needed while Questrade's user interface has constantly improved to be simple, clean and easy to use. A lot of advanced features like security and API you can only get from Questrade or IB (or at least they had them long before) Using BMO Investorline was kind of fluff gimmicks made to look advanced like pie charts and sparkles to distract you from the omnipresent fees


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Not sure where you get the bit about hidden fees with big bank discount brokerages. All commissions are transparent that I see. There are no forex fees converting USD dividends to CAD if one has their USD paying dividend stocks in their USD sub-account. Bond bid/ask prices and commissions are transparent (at least with Scotia iTrade where I do my bond transactions). No commission purchase/sale of GICs as well with BMO IL and Scotia iTrade. And where there are commissions and fees, the lists are clear and concise. WYSIWYG.

Not trying to 'sell' big bank discount brokerages as everyone is somewhere due to personal choice, but am correcting misleading and inaccurate statements.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

The sub-accounts are the problem. No sub-account required in Questrade for USD holdings. With a big bank if you hold something in a CAD account that happens to pay out dividends in USD it is forced into to CAD without any transparency. I doubt many know as it is undisclosed fee (ie hidden) Otherwise there is no reason to require "sub-accounts" Who knows what other hidden fees their armies of marketing departments will come up with without ever telling you. This is a deal breaker for me but at the same time I like to hold big bank stocks because they are experts at making $$$$$ with these fees


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

m3s said:


> With a big bank if you hold something in a CAD account that happens to pay out dividends in USD it is forced into to CAD without any transparency.


Agreed there is no transparency stated, but most anyone with a brokerage account should know NOT to put USD payers into the CAD sub-account. If investors don't know that, they are up to their elbows in the investing business without knowing what they are doing. FWIW, I definitely don't want my USD converted to CAD and thus I could care less.

Added: As an example, I keep my AQN holding in my USD sub-account. Why shouldn't everyone do that?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I really doubt most anyone with a brokerage account knows that some CAD equities pay USD dividends. Some members here uncovered this but not everyone is on forums. If you receive CAD dividends without the FX disclosed (ie HIDDEN) how would you know unless you looked it up. I doubt most anyone with a brokerage truly looks up what their dividends should be

But who knows maybe I am wrong. So why then do big banks insist on sub accounts? I don't have to move my holding from one sub-account to another or even worry about this. Having a single account with multiple currencies makes too much sense. Unless of course hidden FX fees are a cash cow and your clients even defend you they are so loyal to your brand

*BMO, BNS, TD are some of my best holdings but I'm not worried because Canadians are scary loyal to them


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Well m3s says whatsit is the cat's pj's and in essence you'd have to be stupid or old to invest your pennies anywhere else.
Thread closed.


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## digitalatlas (Jun 6, 2015)

Wow, getting heated, lol.

Yeh, Questrade is private so we really don't know about them as much as the banks...but, as m3s suggests, that doesn't mean the banks are squeaky clean and contrary to what their marketing suggests, they really have their own best interest at heart.

I have all my investment accounts at Questrade, so everything's in one place. I actually like that it's not at the same bank as my daily banking, it keeps me from looking at it needlessly.. The same reason I have a Tangerine savings account, not to mention the ability to organize sub-accounts and auto-savings at Tangerine is WAY better than TD or BMO.

So do people really move from Questrade to a bank at some point? m3s obviously hasn't. I remember some regular poster once said they had over 500k with Questrade too.

I think it's not unreasonable that people don't know about hidden fees (if they exist, I haven't looked into it myself yet). It may not be prudent, but I've come to realize that many people have different reasons, and it's not because they're dumb, usually because there's other things going on in their lives, they won't be as meticulous as some others.

Should I contemplate switching to a bank? Like I said, why pay more in fees? It may not be much when one's portfolio is big, but...why pay more? For a couch potato portfolio. 

Do you start to see things differently when you get a few hundred k, and feel like it's no longer safe at Questrade and move it to a bank?


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

digitalatlas said:


> Do you start to see things differently when you get a few hundred k, and feel like it's no longer safe at Questrade and move it to a bank?


 Some say go only with 100% brokerage house that is not exposed to other risks like banks are.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Never intended to have a heated debate on this subject. I am pretty agnostic where investors choose to have their investment accounts. It is good to have the likes of Questrade and IB around to keep the 'others' more competitive then they would likely otherwise be. For example, my first discount brokerage account was E*Trade Canada, which ultimately became the foundation of Scotia iTrade. For me, the discussion should really be about a straight up comparison of the pros and cons of one versus the other.

That all said, WealthSimple Trade may be the one upsetting the apple cart in the near future. No details yet obviously. Time will tell.

P.S. I don't doubt a lot of investors are not aware of the forex charged on converting USD dividends to CAD. Their loss if they don't do their homework....or if they know and don't care for other reasons, so be it. Costs are not everything in investing.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

My US allocation is 30% plus all my international was in USD ETF/ADRs up until recently switching to VIU/VEE. So the Questrade innovations with USD has always been the number 1 reason I stick with them. I always keep the option open to change, but I don't see a reason to "pay more for less" ie why pay more and have to deal with sub-accounts for USD?

The improvements Questrade has made over 10 years I've been with them is all bonus. It appears to me the big banks are copying Questrade innovations albeit very slowly. I believe Questrade was the first to have USD RRSP until the big banks followed. Questrade is the only one to offer some advanced security features (besides IB). Again why pay more for less? 

WealthSimple is interesting but I imagine it will take them a long time to build up. I'm open to change but I wouldn't jump ship for free trades, especially when they have said they will make money on FX. Again a large portion of my allocation is in FX. ETFs are already free to buy at Questrade as well


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

I wanted to open an account with Questrade this year but didn't pull the trigger. I am with TDDI and they offer HISA (1.35% interest rate) while waiting for the opportunity. I emailed Questrade asking if they offer any HISA that provides interest. They have informed me that they don't offer any HISA. I am not comfortable leaving my money for free even though I may be getting some free trades.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Have my TFSA and RRSP is with Questrade and that's it. Don't see myself moving those out for any reason, but also I have no plans to expand and open a margin account with them either. I have a margin account at IB.

Perhaps someday if I have a million dollars in there I'd consider moving to a big bank. But the Questrade and IB smartphone apps work quite well and smoothly for what I want to do at least and I don't see the need to move to anything else.


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## hboy54 (Sep 16, 2016)

Been with TDDI and predecessor company 35 years or so. Now that my wife's mutual funds are gone, there is no compelling reason to reduce the management expense of our portfolio from the annual ten $10 commissions and maybe another $25 or $50 in fees for the odd forex etc. to ten $5 commissions.

I also recall TD's approach to margin calls back in the day. They have the right but not the obligation to sell down whatever they like. Instead of exercising this right, I got a call a day or three later, and sometimes a follow up letter while I sorted things out for myself. I wonder what these other outfits would have done.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Speaking of non-reg margin vs cash accounts, I think Questrade only provides margin accounts so they can make money from lending your account cash and securities. It's probably where they make their money. Something to consider IF one does not want a discount broker to lend out your assets. Such lending is supposedly covered by collateral, and has some kind of IIROC regulatory oversight, but I don't know how good that collateral would be, especially in a market crash like 2008. Regardless, I'd never have a margin account with any brokerage for that reason.

I'd also not go over the CIPF limit of $1 million in an entity that doesn't not have major reputational risk at stake. I don't have the same aversion to the 'big' boys. All things to consider when picking a brokerage.

Added: I don't find having CAD and USD sub-accounts an issue but for sure, it would be nice to have just a single multi-currency account without the potential for unstated forex fees on income distributions. At the very least, the big boys should be disclosing that issue. I've hammered on BMOIL and iTrade on that issue to no avail. This forex issue has been discussed a number of times in financial forums.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> Speaking of non-reg margin vs cash accounts, I think Questrade only provides margin accounts so they can make money from lending your account cash and securities. It's probably where they make their money. Something to consider IF one does not want a discount broker to lend out your assets. Such lending is supposedly covered by collateral, and has some kind of IIROC regulatory oversight, but I don't know how good that collateral would be, especially in a market crash like 2008. Regardless, I'd never have a margin account with any brokerage for that reason.



altaRed the above is 100% my hypothesis. I distinctly recall introducing the hypothesis that the backside of questrade's operation is a wholesale short stock lending operation using stock borrowed from clients' margin accounts.

and i distinctly recall your astonishment, when you first read one of my posts on the above issue, that such a wholesale short lending operation could even be possible. 

alas i am quite used, in this forum, to seeing my original work plagiarized by others; but i would never have expected such a thing from yourself. Perhaps the omission was an oversight. 

but won't you kindly give credit where credit is due in the future





> it would be nice to have just a single multi-currency account without the potential for unstated forex fees on income distributions. At the very least, the big boys should be disclosing that issue. I've hammered on BMOIL and iTrade on that issue to no avail. This forex issue has been discussed a number of times in financial forums.



when i get some time, i'll deal once again with this ^^ issue. In the past, i have posted about the reasons why all brokers can easily get away with not declaring hidden FX fees. It's all a very complicated history; but what it boils down to is that No, brokers are not, in general, regulated to have to declare FX fees. There are exceptions, that i could set forth in a later post.

the overall result is that, in very tiny nano-steps, brokers are becoming more transparent here & there. The improvement is due to the fact that scribes like myself - including CC the founder of this forum - have painstakingly researched the FX issue & have written frequently enough in the internet & other media ... that enough investors have picked up the gist & have complained to the IIROC ... that the IIROC has quietly been urging brokers ... a few class action suits have also helped ...

alas, it is not enough to merely complain to an individual broker. A concerned investor must complain to the IIROC. To do so, the investor needs concrete evidence of unfair or hidden FX fees. This means copious screenshots, including screenshots of the bank of canada's FX rate on the day that a broker charged a predatory yet undisclosed fee.

bref the investor who is prepared to take this issue on with the goal of effecting serious change, has to prepare an accurate dossier, has to be able to argue as fluently as a skilled securities lawyer .each:


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> and i distinctly recall your astonishment, when you first read one of my posts on the above issue, that such a wholesale short lending operation could even be possible.
> 
> alas i am quite used, in this forum, to seeing my original work plagiarized by others; but i would never have expected such a thing from yourself. Perhaps the omission was an oversight.
> 
> ...


I have no memory from whom I first learned about this but I do recall reading from at least a few members, including yourself and J4B I think, on one or two financial forums discussing this from time to time, and from other rabbit holes I've chased on securities lending. I've learned a lot of things over the years from financial forums with no recollection of 'who'. So there was/is no intent to plagiarize any one individual -- including yourself.

Added later: It is not transparent, other than boilerplate in T's and C's in account applications and/or asset prospectuses about securities lending in vehicles like margin accounts and ETFs. More needs to be done in that regard. Some readings follow but most of it is enough to give one a headache and none of it is directed at the retail investor. My overall conclusion was that a major financial crisis could very well freeze liquidity rendering collateral worthless. Perhaps too much of a leap on my part but it reinforced one of the reasons why I would NOT want a margin account.
https://www.canseclend.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Introduction_to_Securities_Lending_Canada.pdf
https://www.cibcmellon.com/en/_locale-assets/pdf/our-thinking/ot2014-2016/ot201509-sec-lend.pdf
http://www.statestreet.com/ideas/articles/securities-canada.html
http://www.osfi-bsif.gc.ca/Eng/pp-rr/ppa-rra/inv-plc/Pages/b4_pen.aspx
http://www.investmentreview.com/pri.../effective-securities-lending-strategies-616/


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> I have no memory from whom I first learned about this but I do recall reading from at least a few members, including yourself and J4B I think, on one or two financial forums discussing this from time to time, and from other rabbit holes I've chased on securities lending. I've learned a lot of things over the years from financial forums with no recollection of 'who'. So there was/is no intent to plagiarize any one individual -- including yourself.



i assure you that i was the first to post the questrade-as-wholesale-short-lender-using-clients-margin-accounts hypothesis in this forum. I don't believe the matter had ever been previously raised anywhere else.

i distinctly recall that you immediately posted a reply indicating that you were astonished to see the idea even being floated. You added that you, yourself, would never patronize such a broker.


i am raising the issue of copycatting now because i myself - and also many others here - have posted a great deal of valuable & original material to this forum, offering our work as gifts to others on the cooperative sharing principle. Yet it has become increasingly commonplace to see our material plagiarized, raided & stolen.

across the years, i have intervened whenever i have witnessed someone else's original material being plagiarized, raided & stolen. Put another way, in cases where the original material was exceptionally helpful, i have tried as best i can to protect the original author's ownership.

i would certainly appreciate the same courtesy in return.


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## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

AltaRed said:


> I don't find having CAD and USD sub-accounts an issue but for sure, it would be nice to have just a single multi-currency account without the potential for unstated forex fees on income distributions. At the very least, the big boys should be disclosing that issue. I've hammered on BMOIL and iTrade on that issue to no avail. This forex issue has been discussed a number of times in financial forums.


My only experience is with BMOIL (15 yrs). For me, our accounts _effectively_ work as single multi-currency accounts. There are single account numbers for each person and type (RRSP, TFSA, LIRSP, etc) and within those accounts securities can be either USD or CAD. Distributions come in the currency of the holding. Norbert's Gambit is dead easy; no journalling required.
In 15 years, I have had only one broker-initiated forex transaction, related to a takeover. I called to complain and I was immediately credited with the missing dollars.
So, in my experience with a big bank, sub-accounts and forex are a non-issue.

AR, upthread you said:


> No commission purchase/sale of GICs as well with BMO IL and Scotia iTrade


Doesn't BMOIL get a quarter-point commission on GIC sales? I believe you have said as much before. And I know placing a buy order for a GIC prompts a warning that says BMOIL may get a commission on the sale.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

fireseeker said:


> AR, upthread you said:
> 
> Doesn't BMOIL get a quarter-point commission on GIC sales? I believe you have said as much before. And I know placing a buy order for a GIC prompts a warning that says BMOIL may get a commission on the sale.


They do but it is 25 bp behind the scenes. The quoted interest rate online is what you actually get. Some will argue you can get a higher interest rate going to Oaken Financial directly as a retail client rather than buying a Home Trust GIC via a brokerage. True.... but that is the way Home Capital chooses to divide their business. You can't change that process. EQ does the same thing. Perhaps other institutions as well. Is that commission free or not?

But then, can you walk into a bank branch (pick your big bank) and get a higher GIC interest rate directly in the branch than you can get online through a brokerage? Highly unlikely, i.e. the big bank decides to pay the commission directly rather than take it out of the offering rate. So is that commission free (to you) or not?

I've never compared with brokers such as GIC Direct so cannot comment on this vehicle.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

fireseeker said:


> My only experience is with BMOIL (15 yrs). For me, our accounts _effectively_ work as single multi-currency accounts. There are single account numbers for each person and type (RRSP, TFSA, LIRSP, etc) and within those accounts securities can be either USD or CAD. Distributions come in the currency of the holding. Norbert's Gambit is dead easy; no journalling required.



i've had a backup BMO account for longer than 15 years.

hidden FX fees are common enough at BMO. Every experienced trading representative will tell one that he knows of countless cases where BMO clients keep their USD securities - or their canadian securities that pay US dollar dividends - on the canadian side of their account. These clients don't know any better. Such clients are reportedly numerous, not only at BMO but at all brokers. These clients are paying FX fees on all dividends. Such FX fees are not revealed by BMO.

a discount broker has no obligation to advise clients as to how to avoid unnecessary FX fees. Across the years, i've only seen one BMO representative who took the trouble to point out unfavourable cross-holdings to clients. Even he said he could only do so when a) he had the time to discuss, & b) he considered that the particular client would be able to understand the issue, since it is a complex issue.


* * * * *

here's a cure for the problem: in certain respects, 2 distinct currency "sides" do co-exist in every BMOIL account. Clients need to hold their securities in the currency-appropriate side of their accounts.

how to find out what's going on? sort BMO holdings by "settlement currency." Then examine each holding to see whether it's tucked away on the currency-appropriate side of the account. Or not, as the case may be.

any out-of-place holding can be journalled to the currency-favoured side of a BMO account, but the client has to phone a BMO licensed rep to get the journalling done. It's a manual operation.

as is proper for a discount broker, BOMIL will never initiate this operation. A client must stick-handle each & every security journal.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

to the best of my knowledge, all of the big bank brokers offer their clients a choice between cash & margin accounts

questrade, i believe, is the only broker that insists that all non-registered accounts must be margin accounts. For this reason, i'm aware of investors who will maintain only registered accounts at questrade, with the reasonable expectation that this particular broker will never borrow from registered accounts.

IB clients are far more likely to have margin accounts anyhow, due to the high proportion of option traders at IB


returning to the OP's question, a tendency on the part of high value clients to avoid questrade is *not* related to the size of any account. What the reluctance is related to is the concern with the security of the brokerage house itself.

as i've posted many times before, questrade is 100% privately owned. We know nothing about the capitalization of the firm, neither do we know anything about its banking relationships. All we know is that this broker can meet the financial obligations of the various exchanges.

Interactive Brokers - also a single owner/founder firm - has partially handled doubts from institutions & hi value clients by selling a very tiny portion of its parent company on public markets. Thus its financial records are filed with the SEC & can be read by anyone. It's my understanding that the public portion of IB is not the same company as the brokerage subsidiary; however, even partial information is better than no information.

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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

fireseeker said:


> My only experience is with BMOIL (15 yrs). For me, our accounts _effectively_ work as single multi-currency accounts. There are single account numbers for each person and type (RRSP, TFSA, LIRSP, etc) and within those accounts securities can be either USD or CAD. *Distributions come in the currency of the holding. *Norbert's Gambit is dead easy; no journalling required.
> In 15 years, I have had only one broker-initiated forex transaction, related to a takeover. I called to complain and I was immediately credited with the missing dollars.
> So, in my experience with a big bank, sub-accounts and forex are a non-issue.
> 
> ...


fireseeker, does BMOIL prompt you with a warning that your CAD holdings that happen to distribute USD dividends will be converted to CAD?

In 15 years are you certain you have never received a USD dividend converted to CAD with hidden FX fees? How would you be so certain?

I believe humble_pie is also to credit for discovering Canadian equities who pay out USD dividends. No one would know otherwise unless they verified their dividend payouts. I really doubt many retail investors know or realize this

I really doubt the big banks with departments full of people whose job is to determine pricing structures to maximize profit without alerting the sheep aren't aware of this. FX fees are a cash cow


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

I've carped about this for years. I never understand a Canadian company that lists on the TSX, why they insist on paying their dividends in US dollars. In fact, as a form of protest that perhaps has worked against me no doubt, I have never purchased a Canadian dividend stock that pays in US$. I've still more than handily beat the Canadian Index over many, many years, so it hasn't hurt me that much.

Every stock I look at, it's fairly simple to examine TDDI research and see what denomination the dividend is paid in.

ltr


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

like_to_retire said:


> Every stock I look at, it's fairly simple to examine TDDI research and see what denomination the dividend is paid in.


+1 Anyone who is remotely interested in purchasing a stock surely knows what currency the financials are in and in what currency the dividend is paid. 

I am at a loss for words thinking that any investor would NOT know in which currency they get their dividends. How do they actually do their stock research? TMX Money is another source for basis metrics as is Morningstar. I use both along with a few other sources.

Added: LTR, I suspect it will become even more common for Cdn companies to run their financials and/or dividend payouts in USD (and to inter-list on US exchanges) as ex-Canadian business grows. When the tipping point of one's business either (or both of) operations and sales becomes primarily ex-Canada, USD is the go-to 'neutral' currency. It is not that surprising.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> fireseeker, does BMOIL prompt you with a warning that your CAD holdings that happen to distribute USD dividends will be converted to CAD?


neat!

this must be a newish feature though. It's another small feature that shows how things are inching along slowly, at a snail's pace, but always in the right direction






> I believe humble_pie is also to credit for discovering Canadian equities who pay out USD dividends. No one would know otherwise unless they verified their dividend payouts. I really doubt many retail investors know or realize this


i didn't discover, although i was the first to post the hidden FX fees in this forum. I learned by gazing at my account & one day the spot rate just up & twigged on me & i realized what the brokers were doing. I put my relevant interlisted stocks in US account. When i came to this forum i thought everybody knew about FX fees on USD dividends, but to my surprise, i discovered that - in 2012 - nobody on here had ever heard of such a thing.

i posted. The comical thing is that, in the whole of canada, only three (3) people believed me. They were haroldCrump, torontoGal & kcowan. Other people argued me down, insisted i had to be wrong, said that no canadian broker would ever do anything as evil as charge an FX fee on dividends paid out by nice canadian companies on stock that had been purchased in nice canadian dollars, stock that was being held in nice canadian account.

as i researched along in my spare time, i learned that brokers are regulated by provincial regulatory authorities only. No provincial authority has any regulations regarding FX fee ceilings. Unlike banks & credit card companies which are regulated by the federal Bank Act, & in the absence of a federal security watchdog in canada, brokers are therefore perfectly free to charge any FX fee they can get away with.





> I really doubt the big banks with departments full of people whose job is to determine pricing structures to maximize profit without alerting the sheep aren't aware of this. FX fees are a cash cow


yes of course. Why should the brokers reduce or eliminate their own fees when the regulations do not require it?

yet very gradually, in nano-steps, thousands of broker consumer/customers have managed to effect change. The very first steps were taken 10-15 years ago, when class action suits were filed against brokers over USD buy/sell transactions in registered account. At the time, canadian brokers were charging a double FX fee for USD sell/buy paired transactions as day orders in reg'd accounts.

these were registered retirement accounts where brokers were acting as trustees. They were bound by all the ethical jurisprudence that has governed trustees for centuries, to act always in the interests of their clients, to never put their own interests first. Yet all the brokers were acting for their own interests first. Faced with those early lawsuits, all the brokers caved & settled.

then matters came to USD dividends. Same story. Brokers were FXing all USD dividends in monocurrency RRSP accounts. When it came to USD DRIP dividends, some brokers were double FXing these. The TD was double FXing USD DRIP dividends in RRSP monocurrency accounts as late as 2013.

there has been visible & welcome improvement across the entire past decade, but there's still considerable work to be done to haul broker FX transactions out into the light of day.

.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> +1 Anyone who is remotely interested in purchasing a stock surely knows what currency the financials are in and in what currency the dividend is paid.
> 
> *I am at a loss for words thinking that any investor would NOT know in which currency they get their dividends. How do they actually do their stock research? *TMX Money is another source for basis metrics as is Morningstar. I use both along with a few other sources.
> 
> Added: LTR, I suspect it will become even more common for Cdn companies to run their financials and/or dividend payouts in USD (and to inter-list on US exchanges) as ex-Canadian business grows. When the tipping point of one's business either (or both of) operations and sales becomes primarily ex-Canada, USD is the go-to 'neutral' currency. It is not that surprising.


 ... not quite fair statement when the company decided to pay dividends in US$ *AFTER* you researched and purchased the stock from the TSX. eg. AQN. And would it be worth it to journal it over to the US side when all you're getting is US$10 in dividends every quarter? Hmm... how much fx fee am I paying here? 25c x 4 = $1 annually?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> +1 Anyone who is remotely interested in purchasing a stock surely knows what currency the financials are in and in what currency the dividend is paid.



the opposite is the case. The majority of investors do not know. Absolutely do not get it at all. Thankx be to patient scribes who keep repeating.

furthermore, data bases such as the one shown by TDDI are *not* accurate for all brokers. Nutrien & BAM dot A are 2 exceptions. There may be other exceptions. A few brokers are FXing NTR dividends in either currency. Very, very, very complicated story.

altaRed, i believe you were one of the first to report that scotia Itrade is paying Potash (presently Nutrien) dividends in CAD? yourself & haroldCrump? a number of years ago? 

NTR (formerly POT) is one of the very, very, very complicated stories


(signed)
éclair with elephantine memory


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Thank you beaver for your loyal words and donations to big bank investors

I hope that all Canadians share your attitude and happily ignore 2.5% and above on their USD dividends and x2 on DRIPS to pad our pockets, some of the most profitable banks in the world I might add

Easier than shearing bilingual red and white sheep


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> furthermore, data bases such as the one shown by TDDI are *not* accurate for all brokers. Nutrien & BAM dot A are 2 exceptions. There may be other exceptions. A few brokers are FXing NTR dividends in either currency. Very, very, very complicated story.
> 
> altaRed, i believe you were one of the first to report that scotia Itrade is paying Potash (presently Nutrien) dividends in CAD? yourself & haroldCrump? a number of years ago?
> 
> ...


NTR is one of my larger TFSA holdings so I checked and I'm getting CAD dividends. Then I double checked that Questrade did not dubiously reset my "currency of transaction" settings. All currency settings are still correct as they always have been, so what gives?



> Any dividends payable on Nutrien’s common shares will be declared in U.S. dollars. Registered shareholders who are residents of Canada as reflected in Nutrien’s shareholders register, as well as beneficial holders (i.e. shareholders who hold their common shares through a broker or other intermediary) whose intermediary is a participant in CDS Clearing and Depositary Services Inc. or its nominee, CDS & Co., will receive their dividend in Canadian dollars,* calculated based on the Bank of Canada daily exchange rate on the record date*. Registered shareholders resident outside of Canada as reflected in Nutrien’s shareholders register, including the United States, as well as beneficial holders whose intermediary is a participant in The Depository Trust Company or its nominee, Cede & Co., will receive their dividend in U.S. dollars. *However, registered shareholders of Nutrien may elect to change the currency of their dividend payments to U.S. dollars or Canadian dollars, as applicable. In addition, Nutrien offers registered shareholders direct deposit by electronic funds transfer for dividend payments.*


Hmmm so we have to elect to change back to USD. I will chat this with Questrade tomorrow

I should receive $40 USD from Feb, May, July 2018 NTR dividends

NUTRIEN LTD|COM|CASH DIV ON 100 SHS|REC 03/29/18 
PAY 04/20/18 $50.86 CAD
BoC rate on 3/29/18 1.2894 = $51.576
FX appears to be 1.2715 or 1.79% above BoC

NUTRIEN LTD|COM|CASH DIV ON 100 SHS|REC 06/29/18 
PAY 07/18/18 $52.12 CAD
BoC rate on 06/29/18 1.3168 = $52.672
FX appears to be 1.303 or 1.38% above BoC

NTR says calculated based on BoC daily exchange rate on the record date..


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> I am at a loss for words thinking that any investor would NOT know in which currency they get their dividends. How do they actually do their stock research? TMX Money is another source for basis metrics as is Morningstar. I use both along with a few other sources.



there is no official source for current listings of which canadian companies are paying USD dividends. Even the toronto stock exchange has given up posting this information, since it changes frequently.

as it happens, i have some knowledge in this field. Other websites are still rattling off Canadian Capitalist's old list from a few years back. Those who know the document will note that CC acknowledged an "anonymous donor" who had created his list.

that anonymous donor was myself. Over the intervening years, as USD dividend payors were added & subtracted, i've occasionally rattled off an updated list for the benefit of one or another cmffer who requested the same.

early this year, moderator jas4 & i arranged to publish my current listing. It's sparklingly up-to-date. It's radically different from the old list from 5 years back. Acording to jas4, the forum admins were planning to make it a sticky. Originally, i was thinking it would be a useful gift to cmffers, plus it would give the forum the cachet of owning the most up-to-date such list in the internet.

i myself was intending to undertake the responsibility of keeping the list up-to-date as best anyone could, given the fact that there is no official source for the data, not even the IIROC.

however, the ever-worsening troll abuse in this forum has stayed my hand. I ask myself why would i take on any kind of burdensome monitoring task, why would i donate anything of importance to the ghastly kinds of hate-mongers who parade here every day.

for now, i have an awesomely reliable list of canadian companies paying USD dividends. It even includes details on the tiny handful of rogue brokers & rogue transfer agents. There is no other source as equally up-to-date as my list.


.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Having a continually accurate listing would be of service to forum members, but that aside I think TMX Money does a pretty good job of being accurate and up-to-date on what currency a stock issues its dividend in. Plug ECA into TMX Money and it will say 0.0165USD per qtr. Nothing obscure or difficult about that at all.

Except for the instances mentioned where a company changes currency AFTER an investor already owns the stock, I remain baffled how an investor could NOT know in what currency the dividend is issued in, if they have done any research at all. Does the average investor not do ANY research on a stock they are buying....before they buy?

However, TMX Money does get it 'not right' for NTR and BAM.A because they list it as USD (correctly) but fail to disclose that Canadians with a Canadian address will receive the dividend in CAD. I acknowledge HP is the one who continuously points these particular discrepancies out.... and yes, Scotia iTrade did (at the time) translate (POT at the time) to CAD properly. It's been some years since I owned POT.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> NTR is one of my larger TFSA holdings so I checked and I'm getting CAD dividends. Then I double checked that Questrade did not dubiously reset my "currency of transaction" settings. All currency settings are still correct as they always have been, so what gives?
> 
> Hmmm so we have to elect to change back to USD. I will chat this with Questrade tomorrow
> 
> ...



m3s u are smack in the storm-centre eye of one of the very, very, very complicated USD/CAD dividend stories.

however, i'm glad that it's you, since you're one who is good at handling exceptional challenges ...

first off, please ignore what NTR IR says on its website about how brokers handle dividends belonging to NTR shareowners holding in street form. Even back in its Potash days, NTR IR had a certain, ah, shall we say_ stubbornness_ about this matter ...

next, be careful about your questrade chat buddy. Ideally you'd want to reach a highly experienced questrade rep, one with the kind of intricate problem-solving ability that you have yourself. But if you're chatting them cold-turkey tomorrow, perhaps you won't be reaching such a sharp needle in the questrade haystack.

basically Nutrien (formerly potash) is being misled by what i think sounds like a rogue agent within the transfer agent, which is a huge US securities manager. Brookfield Asset Management uses the same transfer agent, for a few years had the same rogue story. The difference is that Brookfield has been more intelligent about sorting out the misinformation, whereas Nutrien has stuck stubbornly to one rigid story, even when the facts don't add up.

evidently the transfer agent instructs certain companies, most notably Nutrien, sometimes Brookfield, that certain brokers require payment in CAD, even though those companies basically pay their dividends in USD. i myself had never known what was going on with questrade, although i had sometimes wondered out of curiosity.

other brokers being identified to Nutrien as requiring their NTR dividends to be paid in CAD are scotia Itrade & royal bank, at least royal bank about 2 years ago.

so far, this is kinky, no? but wait, it gets kinkier.

when it comes to questrade, this broker is known to have a custom-built mainframe, so it's impossible from the outside to know all the kinks involved in the trajectory of your NTR dividends, from corporate treasury to your ultimate broker account. But something obviously triggered an FX-fee-loaded conversion of your dividend.

if you can reach a sharp needle in the questrade haystack, can you ask that person to look deep into the NTR bulk dividend pipeline into the broker. Not into your account, i mean into the broker itself, before the bulk dividend payment gets split up into individual account allocations.

ask your sharp needle, In what currency did that bulk dividend payment arrive?

because the short solution to the problem will be to hold your Nutrien shares on that currency side of your account.

the long solution will be to explain how it all happened & how there is a rogue agent somewhere in the bureaucracy & how Nutrien has always been so, ah, _so stubborn_ about the situation ...

good luck with all this


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> Having a continually accurate listing would be of service to forum members, but that aside I think TMX Money does a pretty good job of being accurate and up-to-date on what currency a stock issues its dividend in. Plug ECA into TMX Money and it will say 0.0165USD per qtr. Nothing obscure or difficult about that at all.




as i was preparing my sparkling up-to-date list for possible publication in this forum, i scanned all existing such lists in the internet. I found outdated mistakes in all of them. One or two lists were beyond hopeless. All were misleading. Several are simply repeating each other's mistakes.

to refresh my own list, i double-checked each entry with each & every company. In several cases, i personally phoned the companies to confirm preferred share series with their IRs (the Emera IR was extraordinarily capable, i thought.)

might i repeat, there is no official source for this data in canada. I myself would have a proprietary source list of USD dividend payors that would be the most reliable & the most up-to-date available, if i would agree to take on the USD updating responsibility on a permanent basis.

might i add that it is precisely the sneering & the patronizing & the shabby nit-picking such as ^^ which prevents me from volunteering to take on such a time-consuming burden. I mean, who in their right mind is going to donate hours & hours of precious time to detractors such as the above .each:


.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

m3s said:


> Thank you beaver for your loyal words and donations to big bank investors
> 
> I hope that all Canadians share your attitude and happily ignore 2.5% and above on their USD dividends and x2 on DRIPS to pad our pockets, some of the most profitable banks in the world I might add
> 
> Easier than shearing bilingual red and white sheep


 ... you're welcome. The poor penny pinching bank investors can have my annual loonie, still cheaper than propping up its trillion dollar stock prices. I didn't know bilingualists were sheep. More like wolves in sheep clothings.

Btw: Discussions after post 7 has funneled off from the Thread to a FX topic.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> However, TMX Money does get it 'not right' for NTR and BAM.A because they list it as USD (correctly) but fail to disclose that Canadians with a Canadian address will receive the dividend in CAD.



the above is a good example, not only of how some data bases get tricky data wrong, but also of how some folks add more inaccuracies to the tale.

in reality, Nutrien is *not* paying dividends in CAD to all their canadian resident shareholders who hold shares in street form at brokers. Their IR department believes that this is the case, but reality says something entirely different.

reality says that only a small minority of canadian brokers receive bulk Nutrien dividends in CAD from the company. The minority includes scotia Itrade & royal bank as of 2 years ago. Today we have evidence from a cmffer that questrade appears to be a 3rd non-conforming broker.

as far as we know, all other canadian brokers receive bulk dividends from Nutrien in USD, exactly as some data bases proclaim.

Nutrien IR has a penchant for, ah, shall we say, _stubbornness._ When i tried about a year ago to explain to NTR IR that i receive NTR dividends in USD at TDDI even though he was _stubbornly_ insisting that i could only be receiving them in CAD, he replied that i must be using a US broker.

no, i said, TDDI is a 100% all-canadian broker

you don't know anything about your broker, he told me, _stubbornly_

your broker is an american broker & you just don't realize it, he said

there's no way you could be living in canada & receive Nutrien dividends in US currency at your broker, he said

we pay CAD dividends to all our street shareholders who are canadian residents, he said.


well i had to give up. I mean, i am mostly scots & we are known for awesome tenacity. But that was the most pit bull degree of _stubbornness_ that i ever did see.

.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

digitalatlas said:


> ... Anyway, at 100k, the banks start reducing their commissions to $about 10.


When I look at CIBC's Investor's Edge brokerage, the commission range is $50 to phone in an order and $6.95 for online order. The criteria for a lower online commission is one hundred fifty or more trades in a quarter to get to $4.95. I have yet to see reference to commissions changing price based on assets held in their price guide.

What the larger FMV of specific accounts will do is waive the other fees such as an admin fee or inactivity fee for typically registered accounts. The FMV amount seems to be around $10K through $25, where some brokers pool account FMVs by mailing address.




digitalatlas said:


> ... Now, I still feel like...why pay more? ... couch potato it is ...


Since prices seems to be your criteria - have you been keeping tabs on whether your ETFs fit the commission free buying *and* selling brokers?




digitalatlas said:


> ... Do others prefer to move to banks when you reach a certain portfolio size?


Keep in mind that this question will be relevant to those who started investing after Questrade came into the picture. Some had the choice of $200 a trade with a full service broker or $39 with a discount broker. 




digitalatlas said:


> ... Do you feel like it's safer?


Some have written they don't like Questrade being private as well as being uncertain how deep the pockets are.




digitalatlas said:


> ... Plus, I have several accounts and moving is not just a matter of moving one or two accounts.


Where one wants to move brokerages, more accounts likely makes the totals being moved higher. The the higher totals makes it easier to negotiate the transfer frees to be paid by the receiving brokerage.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

m3s said:


> I really doubt most anyone with a brokerage account knows that some CAD equities pay USD dividends. Some members here uncovered this but not everyone is on forums.
> If you receive CAD dividends without the FX disclosed (ie HIDDEN) how would you know unless you looked it up ...


I guess it depends on the broker as in my case, the transaction record listed the stock, USD paid, forex and CAD received.




digitalatlas said:


> Wow, getting heated, lol ... So do people really move from Questrade to a bank at some point? m3s obviously hasn't. I remember some regular poster once said they had over 500k with Questrade too ...


Maybe a poll would be the better way to find out?




digitalatlas said:


> .... I think it's not unreasonable that people don't know about hidden fees (if they exist, I haven't looked into it myself yet).


Question is though ... are there hidden fees that are relevant to you?

For completeness or those who are buying Canadian equities that pay USD dividends - the comments are great. I may be missing something but I don't see how this would be relevant to someone buying ETFs that is going coach potatoe.




digitalatlas said:


> ... Should I contemplate switching to a bank? Like I said, why pay more in fees?


Since the fee aspect is being repeated, I would think the possibility to sell ETFs commission free would be of interest.


Cheers


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## digitalatlas (Jun 6, 2015)

thanks for all the replies everyone. that interlude about the FX fees was interesting and I learned a lot too, but as Eclectic12, probably not as relevant to a couch potato portfolio.

i guess it's a matter of how comfortable one feels about Questrade being private, and how onerous it is to switch (as I said, we probably have 6 registered accounts alone). every individual account doesn't have THAT much in it...maybe when everything reaches 500k or more for me i'll feel more skittish.

the commissions for buying are free, i'm pretty much only accumulating now so selling commission doesn't matter to me as much to me but it's also (supposedly) capped. and I'm not going to switch to wealthsimple just because it's supposedly that free trades, i'm kind of past the super frugal/somewhat naive life stage of looking for free stuff, because nothing's really free and to some extent, you get what you pay for. Questrade has served my purposes so far, but because I keep seeing some negativity against Questrade, I wanted to get more insight on why that may be from others on the forum.

for those who don't like that Questrade is private...were you personally burned by some company that was private in the past? is that what drives the apprehension? do you always keep money at banks or more public entities, to feel like there's more transparency? I get that this seems prudent as a general principle, but there must be some personal experience that drives one to make the decisions they do, right?

I can see that those who started investing well before Questrade may just be comfortable with their banks, as I am with Questrade right now. and there's some momentum to overcome if one wants to switch, and you just can't be bothered. I can see that being legit too.

i would pretty much only consider TDDI and BMOIL because i mostly bank with TD and i have a couple accounts (previously HELOC) with BMO, so I'm familiar with them. i'm not saying they all have the same incentives, like the example with scotia, but my general impression has been that they give some incentives as your portfolio grows. Though BMO I think offered $200 worth of trades if I switched over once, and i thought that was a pretty lame deal so didn't bother even looking into it.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

A couple of thoughts. Firstly, the risk of securities lending (in a margin account) does not exist with registered accounts, so from that aspect Questrade can't touch your assets in registered accounts. 

With a private company, there is no way to know the degree of solvency. It could suddenly shut down in the middle of the night. I would never invest in a private company of any kind for that specific reason. With a public company, and its required disclosures, one can usually see that train coming. Plus a smaller private company does not have the reputational risk that Royal Bank would have, for example, if it let its discount brokerage go bankrupt. That said, as I mentioned in another thread, that is what $1 million of CIPF protection comes to the rescue if Questrade picked up its marbles in the middle of the night AND there is a certain amount of regulatory oversight.

You have a point that I was investing (pre-2000) before Questrade was around. I understand what the fee and commission schedule is in my existing brokerages and can avoid unnecessary fees. I am comfortable and have no incentive to change. Further, $10 commissions are nothing in a 7 digit account, especially trading perhaps only 5-10 times a year.

The key in my opinion is mainly to thoroughly understand what your brokerage is doing for you, the risks and rewards, and make informed decisions.


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## digitalatlas (Jun 6, 2015)

thanks for the thoughtful reply, AltaRed.

i recall about the $1 million CIPF protection, that's why i originally didn't feel too worried about Questrade. Plus when I started, i just used TD e-series funds and transferred to Questrade at about 70k when wanted to get ETFs to reduce fees but didn't qualify for $10 commissions, so Questrade was a good alternative. 

I still think it's good for my needs right now, but i agree with the pros of going with a public company. I will possibly move to TDDI or BMOIL when i grow this portfolio a little more. i guess i started considering this now because and i'm planning to resume investing more in this portfolio in the near future after taking a break the last couple years with the new baby and we invested money in some other ventures. it seemed an opportune time to review because i don't like to change too often.


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## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

m3s said:


> fireseeker, does BMOIL prompt you with a warning that your CAD holdings that happen to distribute USD dividends will be converted to CAD?
> 
> In 15 years are you certain you have never received a USD dividend converted to CAD with hidden FX fees? How would you be so certain?


I am not aware of getting or needing any such warning. 
My certainty comes from paying attention to transactions in my account. Could I be mistaken? Sure, I guess so. But there is no evidence of that.
Perhaps I've just been lucky to avoid the stocks on hp's list.


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