# TD Canada Trust ruining its culture?



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

CBC is running a story about TD tellers that are stressed out under high pressure goals to upsell bank customers on extra credit cards & loans
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...rate-to-meet-increasing-sales-goals-1.4006743

I enjoy banking with TDCT but I'm concerned the bank management is going to ruin the excellent customer service experience by putting these tellers in a tough situation, with "sales goals".

It also means I will have my guard up now when I visit TD branches. I hope the management thinks twice before the ruin a very positive atmosphere at TD.


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## Nerd Investor (Nov 3, 2015)

Someone shared this story on my Facebook feed. I used to bank with TD and always has pleasant experiences with the tellers.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I have too, but culture doesn't get ruined over night. If they continue down this road I wouldn't be surprised if we see the customer experience deteriorate, because stressed and fearful workers are not pleasant workers. TD better think twice before they ruin their (currently excellent) brand.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

[quote="james4beach]....It also means I will have my guard up now when I visit TD branches.[/quote]

I read the article and then began to wonder why or if people still visit the tellers at a bank.

I think the last time I was in my TD bank was at least 5 years ago, so I wonder why people go to the bank? Do they still have lines and all that stuff?

Actually, the last time I went was because the week before I was in the area and as I drove by I noticed my bank was now a new retail shop. Huh? I stopped and went up to the door and there was a small sign informing bank customers where the new TD bank was moved to. So, I went to the new bank and asked if the institution and transit number and my chequing account number were all the same and they said yes, no problem. I told them they should have informed me they were moving. But, they never tried to upsell me with anything, even though I have a very, very old account that is grandfathered with no fees.

ltr


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ But I thought the consensus (at least on CMF) there is no need to make a branch visit or need to see a teller. And why is now the job of a teller to *sell* when they have all those "personal bank managers" or "financial advisors"?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm in my early 30s and I still visit tellers.

I wonder if this "selling" now also extends to TDDI phone reps? Has anyone encountered selling happening when they phone into the brokerage?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> like_to_retire said:
> 
> 
> > I read the article and then began to wonder why or if people still visit the tellers at a bank.
> ...


^ But I thought the consensus (at least on CMF) there is no need to make a branch visit or need to see a teller.[/QUOTE]

YMMV ... the few times I have gone in and did not use the ATM, it was at times I knew lines, if any would be short.




Beaver101 said:


> ... And why is now the job of a teller to *sell* when they have all those "personal bank managers" or "financial advisors"?


Probably because the teller is already talking to the customer, which hits a broader base than the other ones.




james4beach said:


> ... I wonder if this "selling" now also extends to TDDI phone reps?


I have had a few mention credit card offers, just like the tellers and the web site login. I don't tend to need to call a rep much so for me, it's more noticeable from the web site login and the tellers ... but that is simply what gets accessed more often.


Cheers


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

james4beach said:


> I wonder if this "selling" now also extends to TDDI phone reps? Has anyone encountered selling happening when they phone into the brokerage?


Never.



> I'm in my early 30s and I still visit tellers.


Can you tell us what you do there?

ltr


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

I visit the teller when I want to open my safety deposit box and when I want to get a certified cheque. All other business, including loans, is done electronically.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

heyjude said:


> I visit the teller when I want to open my safety deposit box and when I want to get a certified cheque.


Yeah, that makes sense. I hadn't thought of that.

ltr


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

like_to_retire said:


> Can you tell us what you do there?


Mainly deposit and withdraw USD cash, and USD cheques.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I'm glad TD is upselling customers that wander into their bank, just like I'm happy that BCE upsells customers to continue to keep their land lines. 

I'm pretty sure long term there no longer will be tellers or customer branches...makes no sense.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Eder said:


> I'm glad TD is upselling customers that wander into their bank, just like I'm happy that *BCE upsells customers to continue to keep their land lines. *
> 
> I'm pretty sure long term *there no longer will be tellers or customer branches...makes no sense*.


 ... ???? so where do the old people go for services?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Right, not everyone wants to (or is able to) use the internet for their banking.


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## yyz (Aug 11, 2013)

You don't think they are the only bank doing this do you? Last time I went into a RBC branch to withdraw some US cash the tellers radar instantly went on and asked if I needed travel insurance.They all do it this is just a story to fill space in the paper.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

- Have been in a TDCT branch twice in the last month to have material fax'd to TDDI. There were lineups both times. There is s subset of people and small businesses who still go to the bank regularly.
- As YYZ notes, upselling is nothing new. It is upsetting though if vulnerable customers are being taken advantage of and long-term staff are under threat of being fired for not meeting increasingly aggressive targets. It begins to smell like the scam phone calls that target the elderly, and reminds one of the Wells Fargo fiasco last year - profits at all costs, no respect for your clients, outright fraud.
- It is a given that you will be solicited if you call TD Visa with a question, sometimes persistently, just hold the line and say no. 
- Never any upselling from TDDI. I recall being reminded a few times of having a substantial cash balance that could be held in their hisa, but no selling pressure.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Right, not everyone wants to (or is able to) use the internet for their banking.


Even if the internet is one's main approach ... at times, being near a branch at a time where there won't likely be lines may be faster/convenient or be avoiding costs.


Cheers


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

yyz said:


> *You don't think they are the only bank doing this do you?* Last time I went into a RBC branch to withdraw some US cash the tellers radar instantly went on and asked if I needed travel insurance.They all do it this is just a story to fill space in the paper.


 ... agree that they're not the only bank to do. In fact, all of them do - but now pressuring the low-level tellers to do the selling -which is not only annoying - holding up the line and wasting customers' valuable time. If customers have to go into the branch, they do it for a specific reason and not to have to listen they need another credit card, or travel insurance or whatever product to meet some higher-up's quota. 

However, don't agree this story is just to "fill" in space in the paper. This is a CBC's *Go Public* exposé and if you care to read the details abit further, instead of just glossing over the title without any further thought:



> ... Hidden camera test
> 
> Go Public conducted a hidden camera test at five Vancouver TD branches to see what happens at the teller counter.
> 
> ...


 ... and such selling method is hardly considered honest. 

And customers do not need these craps regardless of what the bank spokeperson spins:



> TD disputes pressure to sell
> 
> TD Bank Group declined a request to be interviewed, but sent an email that disputes the allegations that products and services are sold to ill-informed customers who may not need them or realize how much they cost.
> 
> ...


 ... laughable on knowing the "needs" of the "customers". :rolleyes2: :rolleyes2:


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## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> - Have been in a TDCT branch twice in the last month to have material fax'd to TDDI. There were lineups both times. There is s subset of people and small businesses who still go to the bank regularly.
> - As YYZ notes, upselling is nothing new. It is upsetting though if vulnerable customers are being taken advantage of and long-term staff are under threat of being fired for not meeting increasingly aggressive targets. It begins to smell like the scam phone calls that target the elderly, and reminds one of the Wells Fargo fiasco last year - profits at all costs, no respect for your clients, outright fraud.
> - It is a given that you will be solicited if you call TD Visa with a question, sometimes persistently, just hold the line and say no.
> - Never any upselling from TDDI. I recall being reminded a few times of having a substantial cash balance that could be held in their hisa, but no selling pressure.


look what happened to wells fargo - they are now in the midst of a huge restructure after facing charges, loss of talent, and now scrutiny from the consumer base. 

the big shareholders are aware that this model is not sustainable for the future nad want to cash now and dleave the scraps for everyone later.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I see a teller maybe once per year, if that, to get USD. I haven't seen an advisor in any bank branch in years. 

Don't kid yourself with just TD, _all big banks _are pushing products and services.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

My Own Advisor said:


> I see a teller maybe once per year, if that, to get USD.


CIBC will drop it off at your house...not just USD but like 30 other currencies.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... ???? so where do the old people go for services?


I'm old...

My mother in law is 84 ...never goes to the bank either. (atm's are used though)


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Eder said:


> ..atm's are used though


I'm also puzzled about ATM's.

What do people do with cash?

I went to an ATM about a year ago and got $100. I think it's still in my wallet.

ltr


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## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

like_to_retire said:


> I'm also puzzled about ATM's.
> 
> What do people do with cash?
> 
> ...


Mostly those on some sort of assistance/seniors getting pension prefer to take out cash and spend. Those who receive disability and government assistance prefer cash to reduce paper trail.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There are some restaurant delivery services that don't accept debit or credit transactions at the customer door. 

Also, the "machines" often don't work inside some high rise buildings, due to lack of a connection.

Other uses for cash........slot machines, 50/50 tickets at hockey games, gifts to children or grandchildren, purchase coffee......

I primarily use the teller to transfer money to accounts for which I don't have access.........son or his girlfriend.

There are always lineups at our TD Bank. Lots of older folks paying utility bills, getting US funds or transferring money.

There are lots of ATMs but if you withdraw cash from a non -TD ATM there are extra charges, so some people like to carry some cash.

There are often long lineups at the bank ATMs as well.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I would like to know why it still takes 4 days for an online bill payment to show up as paid at the receiving company.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

like_to_retire said:


> I'm also puzzled about ATM's.
> 
> What do people do with cash?
> 
> ...


Yeah, that sounds like me. It's been at least a year. 

However, I do need to get some toonies soon, to tip the waitress at the golf club (my group gets breakfast vouchers so there is no way to add the tip to my credit card).

Oh yeah, and I need to order some Croatian currency for an upcoming trip.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

There is a co-hort, mostly 80+ types, that feel most comfortable and secure with using the old teller method that they have understood for decades. Some don't have computers and some are still afraid of the internet stealing from them. That will pass in due time. Both of my sons work for Big 5 banks and we have interesting discussions about what happens at the branch level. There is no question that brick and mortar branches will continue to diminish in number and size as the old cohort dies off, but they also say small business and old school trades/handyman contractors are the most behind in making the transition to the digital age. 

They say a likely transition could be a more sophisticated combo ATM/computer screen in some sort of arrangement, e.g. U shaped, whereby customers use the machines and roving tellers are within the U moving about helping customers that want some help. Kind of like the roving ticket agents at airport ticket counters where the customer does most of the work and the agent simply weighs/tags baggage and checks documents. There will be fewer tellers as a result.

I see signs of improvement. Our major arborist/tree management company has moved to Quickbooks invoicing by email and I merely make an Interac e-mail transfer or a CC payment and it is all done. The vendor gets reconciliation for their invoice without humans needing to touch it and I get my Paid receipt on my computer. A few other small contractors I use are now on Interac e-mail transfers and I applaud that. Those that still issue typical invoices for cheque payment... I question them and ask when they are going to transition to a digital solution.

There will still need to be a few 'all purpose' individuals in brick and mortar branches to handle things like foreign currency purchases (though I note CIBC will deliver that to your door) and Bank drafts (no business I know will accept a certified cheque any more due to counterfeiting) and even bank drafts need to have a bank employee business card attached for vendor verification.

I agree we should be able to eliminate the need for cash (some countries are going completely cashless) but it will take more effort by businesses and some better transactional service rates to merchants to make it happen. As of now, merchants are still paying way too much to CC companies for example for transactions. Such charges should really be in the nickel and dime range, not percentage or even $1, or capped at a certain level per week or per month. Visa et al are going to have to overhaul their business models or lose to other fintech solutions.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

If I don't walk around with at least $500 cash in my jeans I feel naked. Use real money to make a bum in Victoria's day, get a discount on services, leave a tip, grease a guy to pull you out of the ditch/snow bank/sand dune, buy a cheap ticket to an Oilers/Tampa game, buy stewing hens from the Hutterites...etc etc.
Money not going anywhere...


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## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

Having worked at TD in the past, I can say that this is all true. I can pinpoint the exact time of culture shift too. When I first joined it was way more focused on customer experience, and trying to be the most service oriented bank of the Big 5. They started pushing sales for every level of staff pretty hard in 2012. Now it sounds like it's exponentially worse. I got a friend that still works there as a Financial Advisor and he can't sleep at night thinking about his sales goals. And he's making them! Turned into a toxic culture. Still a good stock though as I like their US exposure.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

The Cdn banks have likely all had internal discussion and strategy on a post cash, post cheque world.
I know I participated in a couple of sessions well before I retired.
How soon, transition, post cash, systems for person to person transactions like garage sales etc. Tracking, anti money laundering & fraud, Visitors to Canada etc etc.
Not sure where they would be at in developing strategy and platforms. Its the final conversion that will be the kicker.
I am 60. We are already well on the way and I expect it in my lifetime.
Look at your bank statements. What % of deposits were cash, what percentage of withdrawals? For most of us, we are >95% there already.

It started with the penny


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## yyz (Aug 11, 2013)

Exactly.It's the older say 70-75+ folks that hang on.My parents are in their 80's and both pay $2 month for a bank book.My inlaws are also in their 80's and go to the branch to pay any and every bill.No automatic debits for them or debit cards in either case are used.I remember about 2 years ago I went in the branch as I needed $5000 cash.I didn't realize that Canada pensions had come in that day and the seniors come in to get cash.The teller I know said she has to order more cash at that time every month to acommodate the seniors that will always show up to get cash.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

About couple of years back I started to find that TD was getting altogether too aggressive on the sales jobs. Every contact with the bank -- calling TDDI for something, depositing a cheque, arranging foreign cash -- turned into a sales pitch with them trying to flog some service I didn't need and wasting my time. The worst part was not even the time wasted, but the need to be short with or even rude to the reps, just to get them to shut up and move on with the business at hand. It made me feel like a **** all the time.

One day I sat down with the branch manager and asked if she wouldn't mind annotating my account that I didn't want a sales pitch every time I talked to them. She was sympathetic and updated whatever she could update, and for the last year and change it has worked. I can freely conduct ordinary business without anyone trying to sell me credit or mutual funds or anything. No need to be rude to the reps. It has really improved my personal relationship with TD.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eliminate cash? No way.

As someone who values my privacy, I don't want an electronic record left behind of every little thing I do. These transaction histories paint a picture of your entire life, showing everywhere you go and everything you do.

I don't want a trace of all my activities just like I don't want a homing device on me follows me everywhere I go.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> I would like to know why it still takes 4 days for an online bill payment to show up as paid at the receiving company.


Batch processing....and delays when the window for processing has been closed to next day. The old banking system still in effect over a hundred years later.
Sure your payment is taken out of your account on the day you specify to pay your bill, but then it goes to the interbank clearing system and depending on where the payment is destined (utility, credit card or other bank). it takes up to 4 days before the payment is confirmed. 



> Online bill payments run through the Automated Clearing House, or ACH, network. The network was set up more than 40 years ago as a way for consumers and corporations to move money to and from their respective banks. Back then, the network was more of a “big room where a representative from each bank would have a desk … and hand checks to each other” that were to be counted, processed and settled among the group the next day, said Jason Oxman, CEO of the Electronic Payments Association.





> Now the network, which is governed by the Federal Reserve and trade group NACHA, is electronic but works much the same way. Financial institutions batch transactions and use a one-time, next-day settlement as a way to avoid having to make multiple and, more notably, unnecessary payments to one another in a 24-hour timeframe. So, while your bank may owe your utility company’s bank $40 to cover your monthly bill, when you consider all the other payments made back and forth between them, the balances may look very different. “If you add them all up, maybe one bank only owes the other bank $100,” Oxman said.


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

i dont get hassled by the tellers but i often get "referenced" by the bank staff.

If you have a well garnished TDDI account you are seen as a big fish. The TD Bank staff will forward your contact info to all kind of sleazy "wealth management" and "private wealth consultant" who will try to sell you all sort of stuff.

Last year one particular TD Bank stupid lady forwarded my contact info with a screenshot of my TDDI account to a "wealth consultant" with a line like "here is a big potential client for you xxx", all well except i was in CC in the email. She tried to call back her message, triggering another notification and adding to the ridicule.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ If one reads the fine print on some account document, the bank reserves the right to share information internally with their affiliates, hence, "referencing" being done. But how did the "wealth management and private wealth" consultants at the bank perform its "sleaze" in your case, other than that brainless employee who flagged and hooked you in via email? Just curious if you want to share ...


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## yyz (Aug 11, 2013)

^^^^

Cash will be rare in your lifetime if not eliminated.
Don't want to be traced? You already are. Have a credit card,rewards card debit card ?They can follow you and watch your buying patterns.See where you go.


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## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

sags said:


> I would like to know why it still takes 4 days for an online bill payment to show up as paid at the receiving company.


Legacy systems which cost insane amounts to transfer over due to the sheer number of users per day and activity. The banks can only continue to use them but essentially build layers of new code/programming on top of what they have. They literally will not deviate. Another reason why - if it ain't broke - why pay out the *** for this? Thats taking money out of the senior managers and executives pockets. 

The biggest issue is the mind set of the managers and shareholders. A lot of them are soon to be retirees who are very focussed on the money now part because they know they are going to check out soon. They would rather leach what they can and then leave the scraps to whoever to figure it out. This mentality is not going anywhere.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

carverman said:


> Batch processing....and delays when the window for processing has been closed to next day. The old banking system still in effect over a hundred years later.
> Sure your payment is taken out of your account on the day you specify to pay your bill, but then it goes to the interbank clearing system and depending on where the payment is destined (utility, credit card or other bank). it takes up to 4 days before the payment is confirmed.


In Canada, it is an overnight tape exchange. Out of your account day 1 and into the payee account next day. Longer delays only for those at foreign banks. When the payment is recognized is a function of the receiving company's accounts receivable system. ACH is a US system.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

yyz said:


> Don't want to be traced? You already are. Have a credit card,rewards card debit card ?They can follow you and watch your buying patterns.See where you go.


Even though I have credit cards, I still have the choice to not be traced. That's what freedom is: choice.

I can (and do) buy things with cash. There is over $2,000 cash in my backpack right now.

As an international traveller that cash also gives me the safety of not getting screwed when I'm abroad. I've had credit cards cancelled, and debit cards incur very high foreign ATM fees. My cash always works, everywhere, period -- no fees. It's a life saver and when travelling with others, I have saved the day with my cash.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> I don't want a trace of all my activities just like I don't want a homing device on me follows me everywhere I go.



idk, isn't you phone a homing device though

.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Sure, the smart phone is a very feature-rich homing device. I minimize my usage of that as well; it's on airplane mode most of the day, and I use very few apps when I am using it.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

(delete duplicate post)


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

larry81 said:


> i dont get hassled by the tellers but i often get "referenced" by the bank staff.
> 
> If you have a well garnished TDDI account you are seen as a big fish. The TD Bank staff will forward your contact info to all kind of sleazy "wealth management" and "private wealth consultant" who will try to sell you all sort of stuff.
> 
> Last year one particular TD Bank stupid lady forwarded my contact info with a screenshot of my TDDI account to a "wealth consultant" with a line like "here is a big potential client for you xxx", all well except i was in CC in the email. She tried to call back her message, triggering another notification and adding to the ridicule.




good grief. Larry why are you sharing your TD accounts?

all TD accounts have potential "Do Not Share" restrictions. A client has to activate these. An unshared TD account will never be shared with any other TD branch or division. IMHO you might be one who could unshare strategic accounts posthaste.

a minor inconvenience is that instant cash transfer between an unshared account & another account gets blocked. There are easy workarounds, but they take a few hours. For this reason, it's a good idea to unshare strategic accounts only, while leaving a couple other minor accounts to be shared.

.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Sure, the smart phone is a very feature-rich homing device. I minimize my usage of that as well; it's on airplane mode most of the day, and I use very few apps when I am using it.



the next step is to keep buying & discarding wiped disposable phones

but iku, surely your green conscience would prevent such an anti-enviro measure .each:


.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

humble_pie said:


> the next step is to keep buying & discarding wiped disposable phones
> 
> but iku, surely your green conscience would prevent such an anti-enviro measure .each:
> 
> ...


Even on airplane mode, you can track someones cell phone location and movements but you have to tie the phone to the person
But if you buy a phone outright for cash and do a pay as you go plan and use cash to buy vouchers for your plan then no need to use your name on your phone( or tablet) so no way to trace back to you. Use the free wifi at mcyucks or tims for searches to avoid records of searches etc etc. Use phone for outgoing calls only and block your numbrr from being displayed and dont give it to anyone. Oh and wear a tinfoil hat. 


.


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ If one reads the fine print on some account document, the bank reserves the right to share information internally with their affiliates, hence, "referencing" being done. But how did the "wealth management and private wealth" consultants at the bank perform its "sleaze" in your case, other than that brainless employee who flagged and hooked you in via email? Just curious if you want to share ...


Its more an hassle than anything, really just unsolicited cold call. Over the year i think they tried all the tricks/angle, managed accounts, hedge funds, structured products, exclusive consulting, etc. The sales pitch vary, last one tried to sell me a complex derivative product while boasting that it will cost me less to buy them through him than through TDDI. Go figure... 

Once you reach a certain amount of wealth, the industry will try to market all kind of "exclusive" and "private" products/strategy by capitalising on what is know as "the country club syndrome"

From "The Four Pillars of Investing" by William Bernstein P178 Chapter 7 "Misbehavior":


> The Country Club Syndrome:
> This is the peculiar affliction of the very wealthy. If you have your own jet, vacation in tony resorts, and send your children to the most exclusive private schools, then surely you can't use the same money managers as the little folks. You're above all that. You must engage investment firms and apply techniques available only to the elite. After all, telling the swells at the country club that you send your checks to Vanguard will not do.
> 
> So you use the best private money managers. Hedge funds. Limited partnerships. Offshore vehicles. And, because you're too busy and important, you don't keep track of the expenses incurred or your overall returns.
> ...


The thing is that i am a pure indexer and know the value of money. I litteraly have a section of my bookshelf dedicated to investors protection and investment scam/ripoff. I am part of 2 consulting boards with my provincial regulator and follow the current embedded commissions debate closely. I am not going to transfer my assets to some bank schmucks just because he say something is "exclusive".

As a rule of thumb, any cold call is not a good deal for YOU.


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> good grief. Larry why are you sharing your TD accounts?
> 
> all TD accounts have potential "Do Not Share" restrictions. A client has to activate these. An unshared TD account will never be shared with any other TD branch or division. IMHO you might be one who could unshare strategic accounts posthaste.
> 
> ...


thats good to know, i am going to call the 1800 this week !


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

larry81 said:


> ...
> 
> The thing is that i am a pure indexer and know the value of money. I litteraly have a section of my bookshelf dedicated to investors protection and investment scam/ripoff. I am part of 2 consulting boards with my provincial regulator and follow the current embedded commissions debate closely. I am not going to transfer my assets to some bank schmucks just because he say something is "exclusive".
> 
> As a rule of thumb, any cold call is not a good deal for YOU.


 ... you're a savvy investor needless to say. And more interestingly is that you sit on 2 boards with the provincial regulator ... and call these private wealth consultants "smucks" is just so cool ... lol.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> the next step is to keep buying & discarding wiped disposable phones
> 
> .each:
> 
> .


If _they_ found out that probably wouldn't bode well for James's TN visa renewal status, or future green card application. :biggrin: Especially these days...


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

True, the use of "burner phones" is associated with drug dealers and would be a red flag.

As for the green card application, they can stuff it. There will be no green card application from me.


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## latebuyer (Nov 15, 2015)

humble_pie said:


> good grief. Larry why are you sharing your TD accounts?
> 
> all TD accounts have potential "Do Not Share" restrictions. A client has to activate these. An unshared TD account will never be shared with any other TD branch or division. IMHO you might be one who could unshare strategic accounts posthaste.
> 
> ...


Are you referring to when you unlink your brokerage account from your chequing account so your brokerage account isn't accessible through easyweb? My understanding is then you can't transfer money from your chequing account to brokerage account which isn't convenient.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

No. The discussion is about NOT allowing one's brokerage account information to be shared with related third parties.... for example, the value of one's account isn't a line item for the teller to see at the bank branch. That is a switch that I would think most bank brokerages allow one to turn on/off. Whether the default is to share (or not share) I don't remember, but I recall seeing those boxes before.

Added: For example, I have Scotia iTrade brokerage accounts (non-reg, TFSA, RRSP) and I also have a Scotiabank chequing account. When I go to the teller to get some foreign currency, do I really want the teller to potentially see line items of the total value of each of my iTrade accounts when s/he looks at my bank accounts?


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## latebuyer (Nov 15, 2015)

As I recall when I asked the only way you can set it up so the teller can't see your information is to disconnect web broker from easyweb.

Off topic, but if you use TD Direct Investing, i'd be interested if you were able to transfer it to your loc with a positive balance.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Sure, the smart phone is a very feature-rich homing device. I minimize my usage of that as well; it's on airplane mode most of the day, and I use very few apps when I am using it.


I hope you realize posting here is also a homing device.(since we are wearing our tinfoil now)


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

AltaRed said:


> No. The discussion is about NOT allowing one's brokerage account information to be shared with related third parties.... for example, the value of one's account isn't a line item for the teller to see at the bank branch. That is a switch that I would think most bank brokerages allow one to turn on/off. Whether the default is to share (or not share) I don't remember, but I recall seeing those boxes before.


I opened up a LIRA at a TDDI branch last year, and the rep asked me if I wanted TDCT tellers to be able to see my TDDI accounts. Sounds like they can toggle it on/off.

I don't go to the branch that often, but the tellers always give great service and throw in perks like free bank drafts and waiving the hold period on cheque deposits. Not sure how much of that is because they can see my TDDI balances. And they don't try to sell me stuff, just a friendly "Is there anything else we can do for you today Mr G. Laker?" Maybe they realize this couch potato is not gonna switch to one of their Comfort portfolios at 20x the cost.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

When there are credit unions that people can go to why are people not too embarrassed to be seen @ a bank ? You would think people would not want to step in the door of a bank in case someone saw them.


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## latebuyer (Nov 15, 2015)

Just saw this article. Not sure if it is a rehash of what is already discussed

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/td-bank-employees-admit-to-breaking-law-1.4016569


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I remember a time when the incentive for meeting sales goals were a dinner, leather jacket or tickets to a Leafs game.

Tying sales goals to terminations..........displays another level of greed.

The low ranked employees keep their job. The CEO gets a big bonus cheque.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

CBC Ontario radio followed up with 2 phone-in programs this week on this story. In the 1st one nearly all callers were current or former tellers (for various banks - not just TD) confirming the practices described in the original story, and how stressful it was on tellers. The second one had a financial advisor as guest, and some financial advisors called in. Some observations they made:
- From a personnel management point of view, most people in service aren't suited to sales, and vice versa. They require different aptitudes.
- The front-line tellers are inadequately trained to be giving investment advice, but management is forcing them to do so;
- Management is pushing tellers to sell what is profitable for the bank, not what is in the best interests of the clients;

It begins to explain some of the crappy experiences posters have had with bank "investment advisors". Someone needs to take the executives of the banks out behind the woodshed and teach them the meaning of their fiduciary responsibilities to their clients.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> Some observations they made:
> - From a personnel management point of view, most people in service aren't suited to sales, and vice versa. They require different aptitudes.


Lying with a smile is an aptitude? :chuncky:


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## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

It's a sign of the times that sales has gotten more aggressive and filtering down to all levels of an organization. A large chunk of people get their information online and make purchasing or other decisions through what they find there, often in a peer-reviewed environment. Those people that do wander into a branch or retail store, often poor little old ladies, need to be bled dry to keep up sales profits.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I wonder if it will emerge that TD management instructed or implied that employees should break the law. This could get interesting.

I like all this media attention. This should help TD executives back off this behaviour.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

Hardly anyone goes to branches any more. This sales push has been going on for years, but most Canadians didn't notice it because they now bank online. Cue the outrage..but physical branches will rapidly disappear, and the sales push is likely the only thing keeping them open.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> I like all this media attention. This should help TD executives back off this behaviour.


Yes but I don't like the adverse impact on their stock price.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

kcowan said:


> Yes but I don't like the adverse impact on their stock price.


 ... yah, but the TD executives are going to say we're doing this to satisfy our shareholders. You know more sales = more profits. But it's pathetic how that they are utilizing the low-rung employees (or the laughable term "frontline advisors" now) to mislead and rip off customers.


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

I dreaded going into a TD branch to setup e-fund accounts for myself, then my wife, then my daughter. Last one for daughter was just AWFUL. AWFUL in every sense of the word. The lady behind the desk was clearly very untrained, unprofessional, borderline belligerent. She was very clearly and forcefully trying to get me to sign up for their expensive mutual funds.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Wells Fargo got into a lot of trouble last year over a similar kind of situation.

This year the Trump administration issued a memorandum that removes the fiduciary liability for financial advisers.

Just a coincidence ?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamieh...standard-for-financial-advisors/#5d2efab35863


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## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

The Trump administration is just trying to turn US into Canada. Terrible people.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Online banking has been a great step forward, but it still has problems when it relies on the internet.

The other day the Rogers network was down all day from Ontario to NFLD due to a DDoS attack from China.

Internet connections are far from secure or reliable. That is the weak point for online banking.

Also, internet banking is often only the beginning point of the transaction.

A client often still ends up having to go to the bank branch at some point, with a clutch of paperwork in hand.

Lastly, the hackers are getting much better at what they do. 

A few years ago I received a "phishing" message from a source that had an identical webpage as the TD Bank.

I use internet banking and finance a lot, but still don't trust it very much. 

I still wouldn't involve a large monetary transaction without visiting the bank branch.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags, the internet going down temporarily for 1 day (and this is the first time I've ever heard of that happening!..) is no different then a snow storm or flood or fire which happens regularly. It's historically far more likely for a branch to be closed or inaccessible than the internet

Even if my internet went down (which I can't remember happening in the past 10 years, although my power resets almost weekly and goes out about once a year taking the net with it) and even if the power goes out for a day or more, I can still do online banking via mobile data or even phone..

And no you don't need to ever go to a branch unless you deal with the big banks who force you to so they can try to pressure you into life insurance and mutual funds and other overpriced scams. Tangerine doesn't have branches and I banked with them from overseas for years.

I've held a TD account open all this time because people raved about the amazing TD customer service and claimed that Tangerine (then ING) could not do everything. Over the past 10 years I have only found limitations to TD rather than Tangerine

I think it's time to close my TD "all inclusive account". Maybe I'll put that $5000 that has sat dormant there to avoid fees into TD stock. The increasing dividends and capital gains will most likely destroy the petty perks of "all inclusive banking" ($120/year visa and a few atm fees..)

Since I like to be prepared for anything and since I'm also involved in cyber operations I'll humour your fears for a moment.. I can't think of what good a branch would do for you. You are far better to have guns and ammo and freeze dried food than a branch full of paper money.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We have so many internet "outages" there are websites that track it.

http://canadianoutages.com/status/rogers

I see today there are people out in different areas, but not as many as the other day.

It looks like other internet providers are out as well. Shaw is mentioned in the sidebar.

In some of the comments, some people haven't had internet service for days or a week.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

People should learn to unplug/replug their routers


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Eder said:


> People should learn to unplug/replug their routers


That I have had to do.. maybe once or twice a year and nowadays from an iPhone app. I've never experienced an internet outage but I also don't use Rogers or live in an overly congested city


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Eder said:


> People should learn to unplug/replug their routers


Not sure what you mean by that. Unplug them and only plug them in when in use. For me that would probably be from the time I wake up until I go to bed. Or do you mean unplug and replug as a way of resetting them at some interval. If that is the case, what exactly does that do?


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Yes...rebooting routers solve 90% of problems related to internet outages.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Eder said:


> Yes...rebooting routers solve 90% of problems related to internet outages.


Indeed. I have a upscale modern router and I have to reboot every now and then. It's the first thing I do when I cannot connect to the internet (Shaw). Has solved it every time except once when Shaw's fibreoptic cable was cut by road constructoin work.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Eder said:


> People should learn to unplug/replug their routers



thankx for the hint


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> A few years ago I received a "phishing" message from a source that had an identical webpage as the TD Bank.
> 
> I use internet banking and finance a lot, but still don't trust it very much.


I do get phishing emails at work from people posing as the big banks. I've never fallen of it because a) you should never trust an email that prompts you to login and b) you always check the url and https is valid.

I can see a decent phishing scam work on some and for that I'm surprised the banks haven't established 2 step login. If they did, even if someone got your login/password they would still need the second step - a trusted device or physical key

Apple, Google, Facebook etc all have 2 step logins if you so chose to activate it. The banks do not, so they must be assuming the risk. The few times I've dealt with credit/debit card fraud the banks refunded me immediately

Even if someone managed to hack into your bank account how exactly do they steal your money in an untraceable manner? Where are all these people who've lost money due to online banking? I haven't heard of any


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## dotnet_nerd (Jul 1, 2009)

I have Teksavvy/cable. 

I've only had a few outages which were short in duration. I can hotspot my phone as a backup.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Both my Mexican banks allow for login but require and extra security whenever funds are moved. It is a physical device that instructs you to enter a number and get a response which you must key in.

OTOH you can make payment to anyone in the country (no special e-transfer fees) with a bank account.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

https://www.thestar.com/business/2017/03/13/report-that-td-bank-employees-broke-law-doesnt-reflect-workplace-culture-ceo-says.html

*Banking ombudsman says TD Bank allegations raises ‘serious concerns’*



> ...In a statement late Sunday, TD Bank CEO Bharat Masrani said *he doesn’t believe the reports are an accurate portrayal of the bank’s workplace*, but he takes the concerns the story raises seriously.


 ... so is he saying the employees are lying such that they had to go to CBC GoPublic to make it known of such practices? 



> “TD is in the trust business,” Masrani said in the statement. “We know *we must earn our customers’ trust before we earn their business*.”


 - is this a new banking motto the CEO has just learned? 



> ...TD Bank ditched the organization in 2011 in favour of another arbitrator called ADR Chambers Banking Ombuds Office, following in the footsteps of Royal Bank, who did so several years earlier.
> 
> ADR Chambers did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
> 
> The Financial Consumer Agency of Canada said in an email, it’s “concerned about and is investigating allegations about financial institutions signing consumers up for products or services without providing all the required information, particularly about fees related to the products.” ...


 ... will be interesting to see what regulators will do about this kind of banking "trust".


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Employees from all big banks are now exposing the borderline illegal activity their managers/executives tell them to do.

This is what happens if you don't pay your employees enough. They will rat you out.

If the Big Five don't want this kind of press, they have the power to prevent it. Just stop the aggressive sales tactics, pay your employees more, and create a better working environment for them.

Meanwhile, I just learned today that Scotiabank is closing my home branch.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Don't think it's just a case that employees aren't paid enough ... they do have these personal branch managers, and/or personal financial advisors to sell to consumers, don't they? Now the executives want to save another nickel for themselves by using low-rung frontline tellers-turned-advisors to use these highly questionable (legal?) tactics to sell to customers. I commend these employees for the exposé given as it is already hard enough to speak up, let alone come forward with CBC. If those marketing tactics are legit, then the executives have nothing to fear of. Maybe the next strategy of the execs is replace all the tellers in this country with ATMs and we can all talk to a machine or better yet, get rid of the brick and mortar branches ... oops, or is that happening already as evident above by J4B?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I am not a fan of Canadian banks. Well I should say that I really like them from an equity but not really from a customer perspective. 

I think one of the big issues are that Canadians are so complacent. We reviewed our banking needs and charges several years ago. The result being that we moved all of our investments away from the bank and now only have a seniors chequing account. It takes time, but it is fairly simple to find out what the bank charges for, hidden and otherwise, and then make prudent financial decisions regarding those services. 

In the past we have successfully negotiated bank mortgage rates down, refused to pay appraisal fees or mortgage renewal fees. The bank is certainly not go to tell you that you can do this but you can. You just need to take the initiative and be willing to shop around to a competitor or even walk. No different than negotiating for the purchase of any other item.

Last time we needed cheques the bank wanted $40. We simply ordered them on the web from the banks suppliers for $20. We had a choice. When we moved our TFSA instead of paying the bank $150 for the transfer each account to another institution, we cashed out for zero service charge in late Dec. and then moved the monies to the other institution in early Jan. We had to ask about those fees and understand them. We don't use our bank visa card for FX transactions because of the 2.5 percent surcharge. After about 2 minutes of research we signed up for another card that does not have this admin charge. We had a choice.

I do get tired of hearing people blame the banks for the consumer credit crunch that we currently have. People need to take responsibility for themselves. Just because the bank increases your credit card limit or your overdraft limit is no reason/ excuse to overextend on consumer credit. I cannot count how many times we have said no thank you to services, fee for service and otherwise, that have been offered. No one forces us to say yes.

We view the bank like we do any other commercial enterprise. Buyer beware. Trust but verify.


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## latebuyer (Nov 15, 2015)

On the upside, TD is unlikely to raise their banking rates this year. 😀


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