# TDW is finally launching USD component for RSP and TFSA



## MRT (Apr 8, 2013)

I didn't see another thread, so forgive me if this isn't 'news', but a note in WebBroker today:

"Coming Soon: New US$ Registered Account Component (RSPs & TFSAs)

We're pleased to let you know that, by the end of November 2014, we will automatically add a new U.S. dollar account component to your existing Retirement Savings Plan (RSP) and/or Tax-Free Savings Account (TFSA). You will then be able to:

Maintain US$ cash balances and settle your U.S. trades in U.S. dollars
Have US$ dividends and interest paid directly to your account in U.S. dollars
Here's what you can expect

There's nothing you need to do in advance. Your online access to the new account component will remain the same, and we'll automatically transfer your US$ assets and related Dividend Reinvestment Plan registrations to the new US$ component.

Stay tuned for more details as we approach our launch date!"


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Nice. 

Finally, TD getting it's act together, joining BMO and other online brokerages with USD $$ RRSP and TFSA.


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

Oh my! What excitement. Sure took them long enough.


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## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

Is this a dream? <pinches himself>
After all those years of promises, they've finally done it.

This is great news.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Stay tuned for more details as we approach our launch date!"


 I'd bet that this date will be postponed  in any case , too late for me, in CIBC enjoying FX BoC spot rates


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## livewell (Dec 1, 2013)

avrex said:


> .....
> 
> This is great news.


It will be if you can instantly journal from CAD to US - if we lose the ability to online NG money from CAD:US:CAD then it will not be good news


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

gibor said:


> I'd bet that this date will be postponed  in any case , too late for me, in CIBC enjoying FX BoC spot rates


I just spoke with a TDW rep this afternoon and he confirmed the expected date to be in November of this year. However, he was not about to place a guarantee on the launch but he felt that since he hasn't heard of any delay statements from head office that the US$ accounts will likely be a go come November. They called me today to try and peddle their TDW financial planning services - "do you know that we offer special services for customers like you, etc.". Sure, why not attach a MER of 2-3% to my portfolio to help pay your salaries and bonuses!  Not going to happen. They probably weren't too happy to see me recently transferring a good chucnk of change to some of their competitors.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Sell the news.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

^ sounds like a plan, I think I'll try driving to work in reverse tomorrow as well. Maybe that will reset my Chakras.


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## Underworld (Aug 26, 2009)

Could someone please explain why this is good? What have people being doing before? I don't have enough investing experience to know the answer.

Thanks!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Underworld said:


> Could someone please explain why this is good? What have people being doing before? I don't have enough investing experience to know the answer.
> 
> Thanks!


Now they are charging ridiculously high FX rate if you trade US securities or receiving dividends in US$


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

It will be good because your USD can stay in USD and not be converted to CAD at stupid Forex rates. That said, TD's workaround on this was pretty functional and it won't be good news, as livewell points out, if they somehow manage to screw up the ability to do Norbert's gambit to easily convert CAD to USD and vice versa. Hoping this won't be the case, as their major competitors have managed to make the process seemless (long, long ago!!).


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## leeder (Jan 28, 2012)

I share uptoolate's concern and I now wonder how this change will affect the currency exchange (i.e., Norbert's Gambit).


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

The new phone books here....the new phone books here....


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

I waited years for this but I am not prepared to celebrate just yet. As others have mentioned, there is a definite risk they will screw up the ability to do an instant gambit.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Anyone emailed them yet about Gambit or we don't want to spoil the party?


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

My Own Advisor said:


> Anyone emailed them yet about Gambit or we don't want to spoil the party?


that will be the reason for the next delay:biggrin:


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## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

1. Hopefully the gambit will work just like it does currently with our RRSP/TFSA accounts.
i.e. TD will let us sell the stock immediately on the US market.

2. But, I'm worried that the gambit will work just like TD's non-registered account.
i.e. We'll need to wait three business days (T+3) for the stock trade to settle on the Canadian-dollar side of the account, before asking TD to "journal" the shares to the US-dollar side.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

This is good news. I'm with TDDI and have been wishing for $US registered accounts.

For those that already have $US trading in RRSP, can anyone tell me if there are any restrictions on making contributions in $US? I have a good deal of $US already on hand, and I would like to use some of it for my RRSP contribution this year. I'd kind-of assumed I would be buying something and contributing it in-kind, but just sticking the money in there would be convenient.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

avrex said:


> wait three business days (T+3) for the stock trade to settle


I thought it was possible to journal and sell in one move, as a broker-assisted transaction with a higher fee, without waiting for the original buy to settle.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

gardner said:


> I thought it was possible to journal and sell in one move, as a broker-assisted transaction with a higher fee, without waiting for the original buy to settle.


Yes it's possible, but that's an inferior option compared to instant online gambitting that is currently possible in the registered accounts.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

gardner said:


> I thought it was possible to journal and sell in one move, as a broker-assisted transaction with a higher fee, without waiting for the original buy to settle.



you are speaking about the TD cash & margin accounts? yes, of course it's always been possible to sell the sell side in an instant gambit trade. By phoning a live representative. Which means the higher representative phone commish.

this platform is likely to prevail for the new RRSP/TFSA dual-currency platform. Historically the TD software has always permitted instant gambit trading in registered accounts, but they told me that this feature will disappear in the new platform that will be rolled out in a couple months.

i don't believe the original gambit possibility in RRSP at the big green was ever deliberate. I believe it was an accidental by-product feature of the software. Some code or loop had to be left open for the RRSP platform to work on the ISM mainframe. Certainly the green nobs never intended this feature to be a positive benefit that their registered clients could & would use to their advantage.

i remember first explaining years ago to astonished green reps that yes, virginia, arbitrage trading was indeed succeeding perfectly in RRSP accounts at the TD. It was obvious that not even the highly experienced trading reps then serving on the PA desks had ever heard about this feature, let alone received any training on this feature.


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## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

gardner said:


> I thought it was possible to journal and sell in one move, as a broker-assisted transaction with a higher fee, without waiting for the original buy to settle.


You are correct. However that phone call will cost $43.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

avrex said:


> You are correct. However that phone call will cost $43.


wondering why would it cost only $43? i thought it would cost either the full licensed rep phone commish or else the minimum $43, whichever amount shall be greater ...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

another monkey wrench: it's remotely possible that the TD will not permit any instant currency gambit trading in the new dual-currency RRSP/TFSA accounts, either online or via phone call to licensed rep.

why not? this issue will have to do with how their new mainframe has been built plus how they view their responsibilities as trustees for registered accounts. Questrade appears to have the same delicate concerns.

in an agent-handled gambit trade in cash or margin accounts at the big green right now, the sell side of a gambit trade does *not* result from an instant journal of the stock. The just-bought stock stays in the account where it has been bought until settlement occurs, 3 days afterwards.

what does happen is that the licensed rep who executes the gambit sell side overrides the system blockage for the sell order, then sends a wire to TD's credit department advising them that the peculiar-looking sell he has just carried out - which looks like a blockable naked short - is actually OK because the client has just bought the stock in the opposite currency account.

this wire makes credit happy for the time being. Once settlement occurs 3 days later, the actual journaling takes place. However, there is a position that is akin to a naked short position, which obtains for the entire 3 days of the wait period. It is not exactly a naked short position, but it is an extremely close kin.

the reason Questrade won't do this in registered accounts is that, as trustees, they don't want to be responsible for a 3-day naked short position.

i am wondering if the big green might have the same concern?


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Synergy said:


> ^ sounds like a plan, I think I'll try driving to work in reverse tomorrow as well. Maybe that will reset my Chakras.


 Synergy Robinhood in the US recently announced zero commission & zero minimum balance trading accounts. This type of action by Robinhood & TD regarding US accounts would most likely be @ tops. In the future if bans are placed on trading options & futures, CNBC goes under then look to buy the market.


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> you are speaking about the TD cash & margin accounts? yes, of course it's always been possible to sell the sell side in an instant gambit trade. By phoning a live representative. Which means the higher representative phone commish.


Not it you ask nicely the rep to apply the Web commish !


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

humble_pie said:


> you are speaking about the TD cash & margin accounts? yes, of course it's always been possible to sell the sell side in an instant gambit trade. By phoning a live representative.


My point being -- is there any reason to believe that the rules would be any different for a registered account pair? As several others have mentioned, they generally do not charge full commission for Gambit trades. It's not a perfect solution because the exact commission is a hit-or-miss proposition, and they sometimes seem to balk at the whole transaction, depending on who answers.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

larry81 said:


> Not it you ask nicely the rep to apply the Web commish !



larry u are right, although this is a recent change!

that was former info about paying the agent commish for the sell side. It was true in the past, but the update seems to be that TD will now do instant currency gambit sell orders for a low $9.99 web commish.

a very sweet TD rep recently told me that there is no formal protocol, the TD agents are instructed to handle gambit sell side requests on a case-by-case basis, but she herself is honouring nearly all requests for low gambit web commissions as a client service.

nice! we shall have to see what happens when they roll out those dual-currency RRSPs & TFSAs in a month or 2.


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## maxandrelax (Jul 11, 2012)

Thanks guys, gals and especially HP for the massively informative threads on TD's USD RRSP issues and gambits over the past few years. I have learned a tonne.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

gardner said:


> ... they generally do not charge full commission for Gambit trades. It's not a perfect solution because the exact commission is a hit-or-miss proposition, and they sometimes seem to balk at the whole transaction, depending on who answers.



here's an older article (2011 yikes!) offering details about how to do an efficient phone gambit in TD non-registered accounts.

it was written at a moment just after TD had agreed to again accept gambit trades. For a nasty period during 2011, 2 of the TD call centres had instructions from management to refuse gambit sell orders. The situation was exceptionally messy & the result was a noticeable number of ugly fights between TD clients & reps being written up in the internet. Because - fin du compte - the big green had no legal right to block arbitrage trades, which is what gambit trades really are.

http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/?s=instant+gambit+TD

if you are a good editor, you will be able to detect from the writing style that i'm the anonymous contributor of the text in black. CC added the blue comments, which greatly round out the article.

if my article seems sympathetic to the TD, that's only because there were so many bad fights going on over gambit trading at that time, in 2011. I was hoping to explain to TD investors what were the difficulties that the licensed reps were facing on their side, so that everybody could end up doing the dance steps happily together.

even today, i stick by my suggestion to prepare the online buy order but do not send it. Line up a TD representative on the phone & make sure he or she understands exactly what you are doing.

after that, the dance pas-de-deux will ensue. You send online buy order, it's filled, the rep sees, he releases the sell order on the opposite exchange which he has already prepared. Boom, the action is all done in 60 seconds.

a client who asks the TD rep to first do the buying for him, then do the selling for him, is building in a delay. Things go better when the gambit trader controls the timing, imho.


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

I just saw the notification of this when I logged in today. I was pretty much set on reviewing my account in the new year to see how much not having the US$ separated out in registered accounts was costing me. I do have the worries about the lack of gambit (or at least more complicated gambit) but that is probably more than compensated for by having the US$ dividends (and DRIPs) not getting dinged by hidden forex fees every quarter...


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

You did a great job with the article HP...I talked to CC about that over dinner one night, he was thankful of your contributions to the article.

I wonder if Big Green with have USD $$ for LIRAs at some point? The announcement didn't specify, and I'm thinking that's a "no" for now.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

My Own Advisor said:


> I talked to CC about that over dinner one night



actually it was nothing, i knew CC was preparing the article so i threw together some scribbles in case he might want to use them in some manner. I expected him to paraphrase, pick & choose, rewrite the scribbles. I was astonished when they appeared word-for-word.

but you can see how CC's contributions enhanced the scribbles & really turned the piece into an article that hung together solidly.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I see him every now and again, he's one smart guy 

And yes, the article was solid and is referenced by many!


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## JohnnyD (Apr 10, 2014)

I spoke with a TD rep this morning and they confirmed that the autowash feature will no longer be possible once the USD RRSP comes into effect. I hope they figure out a way to make it possible without too many headaches. I don't want to wait a couple of years for them to come up with a solution.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

JohnnyD said:


> I spoke with a TD rep this morning and they confirmed that the autowash feature will no longer be possible once the USD RRSP comes into effect. I hope they figure out a way to make it possible without too many headaches. I don't want to wait a couple of years for them to come up with a solution.


Autowash isn't necessary in the USD account. You can simply hold USD cash.


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## JohnnyD (Apr 10, 2014)

GoldStone said:


> Autowash isn't necessary in the USD account. You can simply hold USD cash.


But how would I best convert my funds into USD without being dinged by forex fees? Is there a better way to convert money?


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

JohnnyD said:


> But how would I best convert my funds into USD without being dinged by forex fees? Is there a better way to convert money?


You would still use Norbert's Gambit, except now it doesn't require autowash.

Old single currency RRSP:

Buy an interlisted stock on the Canadian exchange. Sell it on the US exchange. Autowash kicks in: it puts the proceeds of the US sale in the USD money market fund.


New dual currency RRSP:

Buy an interlisted stock on the Canadian exchange, in the Canadian sub-account. Journal it over to the US sub-account. Sell it there on the US exchange. The proceeds remain in the US sub-account.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Yup, should still work!


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## Rysto (Nov 22, 2010)

You're exposed to stock market risk during the journaling process though. Using DLR works, although the cost of the bid-ask spread is higher (about 20 basis points, as opposed to 1-2 on interlisted stocks). Still, that's a lot better than 200 basis points when using your broker to convert currency.


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## JohnnyD (Apr 10, 2014)

GoldStone said:


> You would still use Norbert's Gambit, except now it doesn't require autowash.
> 
> Old single currency RRSP:
> 
> ...


So I just need to make a phone call to TDDI requesting that the shares be journaled over to the US side? Or is there generally an online way to journal over? Thanks for your help!


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

JohnnyD said:


> So I just need to make a phone call to TDDI requesting that the shares be journaled over to the US side? Or is there generally an online way to journal over? Thanks for your help!


We don't know yet how the new dual currency RRSP will look. If it works the same way as their non-registered accounts work now -- which is very likely -- you will need to make a phone call.


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## leeder (Jan 28, 2012)

Looks like they're starting to make changes to the system. They've now named the TFSA and SDRSP accounts "Cdn" TFSA and "Cdn" SDRSP.


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

leeder said:


> Looks like they're starting to make changes to the system. They've now named the TFSA and SDRSP accounts "Cdn" TFSA and "Cdn" SDRSP.


does anyone know if this means they will split them into 2 accounts, to make it more expensive to transfer?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i'd bet very good money that they won't (make it more expensive to transfer)


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

humble_pie said:


> i'd bet very good money that they won't (make it more expensive to transfer)


why? isn't it to their advantage to say this is now 2 accounts, and charge transfer fee twice?


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

humble_pie said:


> i'd bet very good money that they won't (make it more expensive to transfer)


+1

And...I suspect whatever you have in cash, right now, is all CDN cash so any movement into USD $$ will cost you the F/X fee on top of the exchange rate.


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

My Own Advisor said:


> +1
> 
> And...I suspect whatever you have in cash, right now, is all CDN cash so any movement into USD $$ will cost you the F/X fee on top of the exchange rate.


US cash, is actually in the US$ MM through wash, so i assume this moves to the new Account, or maybe i missed something in their announcement of this being automatic. i assume that interlisted company will need be left in Canada if we don't call,


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

here is a subtle point to add (from what i can gather the TD representatives have not yet been alerted to this.)

the big green says not to worry, securities will be lodged in whichever account is appropriate, whether CAD or USD. But we do not know what system they will use to determine which currency account is "appropriate."

will it be settlement currency? if so, there could be many mistakes.

will it be currency of dividend payment, if any? again, possibility of many mistakes.

over at bmo, they have an interesting system for correcting these arrangements. BMO has received an avalanche of ex-TD registered accounts ever since it debuted its dual-currency RRSP in 2011. When monocurrency accounts are transferred from monocurrency RRSP brokers such as TD, all securities arrive at BMO via the CDS system. All securities are flagged as CAD, of course, even all of the arriving american stocks such as AAPL or MRK.

the BMO agents have all been trained to work with clients on this issue. At the first establishment of each new transferred account, the new client is invited to manually inspect his portfolio so as to decide whether each security should be held on CAD side or USD side. The licensed reps help with these inspections as best they can.

imho, TD should train their agents to provide the same service. This includes training agents to explain to clients about the "oddball" securities, for example the 20 big canadian companies (potash, thomson reuters plus 18 others) that pay their dividends only in US dollars.

imho there is no way any broker can automatically "know" in which currency account a security should be held. Only the investor himself can decide that.


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

thanks humble_pie. something more to worry about, and to have to Call for a "WEb"-broker service.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

moisimplementmoi said:


> thanks humble_pie. something more to worry about, and to have to Call for a "WEb"-broker service.



not really something to worry about because it's easy to do.

there is no way any broker could ever figure out what, precisely, serves each investor's long-term interests. Brokers cannot mysteriously & miraculously decide what is best for each client.

for example, with respect to the 20 canadian payors of USD dividends, these stocks would normally be kept on USD side of the account.

however there can be exceptions.

for example, an investor client who has only 200 shares of goldcorp (one of the 20 USD payors) but no other USD holdings might not want those paltry few dollar dividends paid in USD, because the US funds received would serve for nothing in the account. Instead, such client might be happy to pay the broker's FX fee on the paltry few dollars & receive those divvies in CAD, so that he could add the money to other CAD cash holdings.

bref, DIY investors have to manage their accounts properly! Surveilling the new TD registered accounts & making sure each security is in the right currency sub-account is a very minor, once-only task imho.


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

i guess i have had some issues in my account over last month, so anything that can create potential non automated movement is a cause for worry. but i will hope for the best.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

it will be ok each: ask back here if you think you're running into a glitch

this - the final grooming & settling of the registered account holdings in the new TD system - will be a beyond-automation procedure. It can really only be done by hand.

not a big deal at all. Don't you, after all, look at your registered account holdings from time to time? that's all it will be. Here & there, after the new accounts are set up, some clients will find that they need to tweak a couple of things.


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

humble_pie said:


> it will be ok each: ask back here if you think you're running into a glitch
> 
> this - the final grooming & settling of the registered account holdings in the new TD system - will be a beyond-automation procedure. It can really only be done by hand.
> 
> not a big deal at all. Don't you, after all, look at your registered account holdings from time to time? that's all it will be. Here & there, after the new accounts are set up, some clients will find that they need to tweak a couple of things.



i know, i guess i am already bitter that the change removes possibility to do NG without calling, that i am ready to find any flaws with it :stupid:....


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

moisimplementmoi said:


> i know, i guess i am already bitter that the change removes possibility to do NG without calling



ah knows how ya feels

afaik the licensed reps are 100% in the dark, as much as we are, but they seem to sense that something is underway from the broker.

one was saying the TD could activate $15 journal transfer fees, to be used when clients are gambit/arbing currencies. He concurred with the majority who say TD clients will have to phone for a gambit sell side order.

i have a certain sympathy for the broker here because the big green does have to process the phoned order & they do have to wire the credit department to alert them that the trade - which otherwise looks like a naked short to the backside of the website - is, in fact, covered by the buy which the client has just made.

there is definitely a cost to the broker for all this work. Most other brokers face challenges re gambitting as well. 

the only 2 exceptions are BMO & royal bank. Both offer gambit trades that are homefree, dreamlike, cheap, instant & 100% online.

it's like all the surveys say. Every broker has strengths & weaknesses, the investor has to find the best match for his needs.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

humble_pie said:


> i have a certain sympathy for the broker here because the big green does have to process the phoned order & they do have to wire the credit department to alert them that the trade - which otherwise looks like a naked short to the backside of the website


I don't. It's their trading app. They could fix it instead of hiring brokers to implement the workaround.

They could also just offer decent FX rates. If they only took 50 bps I would probably just use their FX facility.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

but why would the TD "fix" it when offering gambit trading is not any kind of priority for them?

no broker really wants to offer gambit trading. They'd much rather clients would pay their FX fees.

there's a very long history here that i'm omitting. But at the end of the day, parties with frequent currency arbitrage trading needs should go to BMO, royal bank or interactive brokers, which has good forex trading. Parties needing RRSPs or TFSAs have to stick with bmo or roybank since IB offers neither.

afaik *all* brokers, without exception, are still charging FX fees in all CAD accounts that hold any of the 20 canadian stocks that pay USD dividends. Familiar names like potash, thomson, encana, magna, methanex, agrium, goldcorp, open text.

some of these cases are probably going to show up in the new TD dual currency registered accounts. I imagine that TD will file most of those 20 canadian stocks in CAD accounts. This will mean that FX fees will be charged on their dividends, exactly as before :biggrin:

the cure is to journal the stocks to US account. Client has to phone. hello! didn't we come in right about here?


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## andrew000 (Oct 24, 2014)

gardner said:


> I don't. It's their trading app. They could fix it instead of hiring brokers to implement the workaround.
> 
> They could also just offer decent FX rates. If they only took 50 bps I would probably just use their FX facility.


TD's rates aren't *that* bad. 100 bps for 25k-99.9k and 50 bps for >100k


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

humble_pie said:


> the cure is to journal the stocks to US account. Client has to phone.


Is there a regulatory requirement that this has to be hard to do? That TDDI can't provide a journal function right there in the U/I?

I'm not arguing that simplifying FX handling is, or even ought to be, a priority for TD -- only that I have no sympathy for the trouble I might put them to, to do it the way they have chosen for themselves. If they find it expensive or inconvenient to service arbitrage transactions, they know how to fix it. As you say, and I agree, they prefer to pocket money from the userous FX spreads and so you have to pay careful attention.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

gardner said:


> Is there a regulatory requirement that this has to be hard to do? That TDDI can't provide a journal function right there in the U/I?
> 
> I'm not arguing that simplifying FX handling is, or even ought to be, a priority for TD -- only that I have no sympathy for the trouble I might put them to, to do it the way they have chosen for themselves. If they find it expensive or inconvenient to service arbitrage transactions, they know how to fix it. As you say, and I agree, they prefer to pocket money from the userous FX spreads and so you have to pay careful attention.



but all the other brokers, save & except for bmo & roybank, are exactly the same. They don't have online gambit trading either.

it's the ISM mainframe. Most of the brokers lease this. BMO, RY & questrade are exceptions.

the ISM system makes it very hard ... sometimes impossible ... to do certain things. Look how long it took TD to develop a dual currency RRSP. 

speaking strictly from the green point of view, i suppose they could ... if they really wanted to ... if gambit trading were a priority ... i suppose they could find a developer who'd be able to create a patch. But it's not a priority, so why should they spend the $$?

again from the green pov, it's a lot easier to figure out how to charge the client for the sell side of a gambit transaction. I laughed a bit when i heard they might charge $15. That's not a full agent-handled phone commish, but from what i've been told it will definitely cover their costs.


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

gardner said:


> Is there a regulatory requirement that this has to be hard to do? That TDDI can't provide a journal function right there in the U/I?
> 
> I'm not arguing that simplifying FX handling is, or even ought to be, a priority for TD -- only that I have no sympathy for the trouble I might put them to, to do it the way they have chosen for themselves. If they find it expensive or inconvenient to service arbitrage transactions, they know how to fix it. As you say, and I agree, they prefer to pocket money from the userous FX spreads and so you have to pay careful attention.



i am really beginning to think that TDDI wants people to call, and use it as a differentiating point with 24 hour service etc.. which is fine, but as humple_pie points out, this may not be the best match for me...


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> afaik *all* brokers, without exception, are still charging FX fees in all CAD accounts that hold any of the 20 canadian stocks that pay USD dividends. Familiar names like potash, thomson, encana, magna, methanex, agrium, goldcorp, open text.
> 
> some of these cases are probably going to show up in the new TD dual currency registered accounts. I imagine that TD will file most of those 20 canadian stocks in CAD accounts. This will mean that FX fees will be charged on their dividends, exactly as before


not really  CIBC using BoC FX rate for all registered account for all US$ stocks and dividends include Canadian stock paying divi in US$.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

^ I was waiting for gibor to mention this 

As well, with CIBC IE there's no need for Norbert's gambit hassle in registered accounts because they use market spot rate for the FX conversion when I buy USD stocks using CAD. 

Also, they offer something called FX netting if you do multiple cross-currency trades in one day in your registered account. You can phone in and ask for one exchange rate for all the trades; handy if the rates are changing in your favour over the day. You can pick the time you want to lock in your FX rate.

Oh, and with CIBC IE trades are $6.95 across the board for everybody, not the $9.99 TDDI charges.
Seems a no-brainer to me; use CIBC IE for trading & maybe just own shares in the Big Greedy Green since they're so adept at screwing over their clientele.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

mrPPincer said:


> ^ $6.95 across the board for everybody, not the $9.99 TDDI charges.
> Seems a no-brainer to me; use CIBC IE for trading & maybe just own shares in the Big Greedy Green since they're so adept at screwing over their clientele.


mrPPincer, TD is fine with me as this stock in my 5 top holding.... bigger they charge from clients, better their profit, stock price and dividend growth


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## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

This thread now reminds me of a To-Do task. :greedy_dollars:

For any USD that you want to utilize for upcoming US ETF/stock purchases, *perform Norbert's Gambit now!* 

Do this before they convert your RRSP/TFSA TD account to the dual currency structure. This could occur by the end November, or perhaps earlier.

This will be (possibly) your last chance to do the *instant gambit* and avoid the T+3 delay and phone-in cost of having the TD rep journal the stock for me.

I'll do my final one on Monday.


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

avrex said:


> This thread now reminds me of a To-Do task. :greedy_dollars:
> 
> For any USD that you want to utilize for upcoming US ETF/stock purchases, *perform Norbert's Gambit now!*
> 
> ...


i'll do mine in January, it will be easier. and i won't have to call any TD rep.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

avrex said:


> This will be (possibly) your last chance to do the *instant gambit* and avoid the T+3 delay and phone-in cost of having the TD rep journal the stock for me.
> 
> I'll do my final one on Monday.



thankx for the timely warning for registered accounts. Although a few weeks are left.

for non-registered cash or margin accounts, right now it's not necessary to do the T+3 delay or to pay the phone-in costs.

TD agents are taking instant gambit sell orders by phone for web commish.

several on here have confirmed. Each agent has the right to offer or refuse the lower web commish, but my belief is that every client doing a gambit will be instantly accommodated.

what we don't know is what the big green has up its sleeve for post-november. 

we hypothesize we'll have to phone to sell instant gambits in both reg'd & non-reg'd accounts. I don't believe the TD will charge a full agent commish for the sell side. It seems they might have a smaller surcharge, $15 has been mentioned to me.

this will still be a better deal than what clients receive at all other brokers, save & except for bmo & roybank, which have the best gambit platforms.


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## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> I don't believe the TD will charge a full agent commish for the sell side. It seems they might have a smaller surcharge, $15 has been mentioned to me. this will still be a better deal than what clients receive at all other brokers, save & except for bmo & roybank, which have the best gambit platforms.


I think $15 would be a reasonable surcharge. Much better than a +$40 phone commission. 
Let's hope so.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

avrex said:


> I think $15 would be a reasonable surcharge.


Don't give them ideas. To be competitive with RBCDI and BMOIL, they should charge online commission. It's bad enough that you have to call them for a routine transaction.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

you haven't gotten the memo yet? it's been gone over 200 times ...

it's the legacy mainframe. All the brokers are the same except bmo & roybank, they use ADP

apparently the big green decided to keep ISM, in the end. It's either phone for a gambit sell or move to another broker.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

avrex said:


> I think $15 would be a reasonable surcharge. Much better than a +$40 phone commission.
> Let's hope so.



a full phone commission can be so much worse than $40. Take selling 1000 shares of RY on US market, this would cost $119, i believe.

avrex' suggestion upthread to exchange one's dollars now, if possible, is very timely. Online gambit in registered account still works perfectly. 2 trades at 9.99 each.

non-registered via a licensed rep works perfectly, too. 2 trades, 9.99 each. For the time being.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

My post was about the alleged upcoming surcharge. Unlike Avrex, I don't think it's reasonable. It's not our fault they are stuck with the legacy mainframe. They should charge online commission for the phone leg of the gambit.... if they want to be competitive.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

it's not our fault they are stuck with the mainframe, but then it's not their fault they are stuck with overly demanding clients, either.

why do they have to be competitive with bmo & roybank on this issue? theoretically speaking, that is. Maybe they don't want to compete on this issue.

imho the challenging task at the big green right now is to wear them down to the $6.95 commission level for everybody. This will be much more rewarding than fretting over a few dollars in gambit fees.

how many gambit trades would one do in the course of a year? two? three? it's worth keeping in mind that TD is one of the few brokers that offers DRIPs on US dividends. This is ideal for RRSPs.

bmo does not offer any USD DRIP dividends. I don't know what roybank does.

as always, different brokers for different folks. Parties who are hell-bent on frequent gambit arbitrage - usually persons with USD salaries or businesses - can always open a bmo or a roybank account.


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

humble_pie said:


> it's not our fault they are stuck with the mainframe, but then it's not their fault they are stuck with overly demanding clients, either.
> 
> why do they have to be competitive with bmo & roybank on this issue? theoretically speaking, that is. Maybe they don't want to compete on this issue.
> 
> ...


Exactly. The same way none of the other have felt the pressure to compete with the e-Series MER, if TD is fine with charging more for Gambit, in the end it is their choice. i even look at my thought process in possibly/likely moving, the cost is not even the issue, it's the fact that i have yet again one more operation i cannot perform without waiting on the phone. and even worse, this one i need to do during trading hours (.."we are currently experiencing longer wait then anticipated, your wait may be as long as 15 minutes"...) whereas at least on doing a wash on my US dividends i could call anytime within 2 days of payment date. ....


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

moisimplementmoi said:


> ... the cost is not even the issue, it's the fact that i have yet again one more operation i cannot perform without waiting on the phone. and even worse, this one i need to do during trading hours (.."we are currently experiencing longer wait then anticipated, your wait may be as long as 15 minutes"...)


mois do u really have to wait 15 minutes? how terrible

i find wait times are only a minute or 2. One of the things the big green sought to accomplish by disbanding the PA teams almost a year ago was to overcome the phone wait time problem. IMHO they did succeed at that. No phone wait times anymore. I'm at a loss to know how come it's not working for you. Maybe ask for a team manager, discuss how phone delays are difficult especially when you are at work, ask if they can figure out a solution?

trivia re phone wait times: BMO has this problem quite badly but they seem to be trying to cure the problem as best they can. I'm always patient ...


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

humble_pie said:


> mois do u really have to wait 15 minutes? how terrible
> 
> i ...


in all fairness, i only got the 15 minutes message once last month, and few 5 minutes (i do hate that you get the message after you do the validation, tell me up front, so i can decide), but i just hung up and call later, or wait while i'm walking around. Since most intervention have been on things that could be handled off hour, but then i find longer wait time of finding answers on non-standard question or lost forms from Bank to TDDI, but auto-wash of dividend works well.


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

humble_pie said:


> not really something to worry about because it's easy to do.
> 
> there is no way any broker could ever figure out what, precisely, serves each investor's long-term interests. Brokers cannot mysteriously & miraculously decide what is best for each client.
> 
> ...


based on discussions i had, i would expect all securities traded in Canada will be mapped to the Canadian side of the account initially (even those with US$ dividends), and we will need to request to have them journalled over to get them in US$, so same process as moving from single to dual-currency broker currently.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

moisimplementmoi said:


> based on discussions i had, i would expect all securities traded in Canada will be mapped to the Canadian side of the account initially (even those with US$ dividends), and we will need to request to have them journalled over to get them in US$, so same process as moving from single to dual-currency broker currently.



yes, exactly. 

even the dual-currency brokers need initial mapping input, by hand, by the individual investors working through licensed reps.

we don't know the protocol TD will follow in dividing securities for the new accounts. It could by location of corporate head office, but on the other hand it might be by settlement currency. This latter protocol is going to produce some weird results!

mois you've done a good job grasping these details. Did you say you are moving to cibc? If so, please keep in mind that their nice FX-at-generous-rates plan only applies to their registered accounts. In cash or margin accounts, the cibc is stiffing outrageous FX fees on canadian USD dividends, exactly like every other broker ...


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

humble_pie said:


> yes, exactly.
> 
> even the dual-currency brokers need initial mapping input, by hand, by the individual investors working through licensed reps.
> 
> ...


based on discussion, pretty sure TDDI feels they can't make elections to move stocks like POT to US without consent, so i think it will stay on canadian side until instructed. but that will also create weird results, especially for someone who was washing them on the day before, since wash will be gone it seems. 

haven't figured out what i'm doing to be honest. Yeah i am aware of CIBC, i am also aware that even the preferencial RRSP environment is not in writing anywhere, which to me is a worry. and since i can't move things for another 10 days at least (30days in e-Series), and have no US$ transaction due until december i'll see. in the end not one is perfect, but BMO and RBC seem easier for what i want to do.


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## hyperdude (Jul 29, 2011)

It will be interesting to know if they will offer DRIP for US RRSP stocks. BMO does not offer this right now.

Personally, I've been looking forward to this for years.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Most brokerages already offer DRIPs for US stocks, BMO is one of the outliers.


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

hyperdude said:


> It will be interesting to know if they will offer DRIP for US RRSP stocks. BMO does not offer this right now.
> 
> Personally, I've been looking forward to this for years.



i thought they already did. someone will have to confirm, i don't DRIP


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

TD does currently DRIP US stocks, I don't see why they would stop.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

http://www.thestar.com/business/201...to_repay_overcharged_mutual_fund_clients.html

Wow..I never thought I'd see the day when a MF company repays clients for charging excessive fees!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

dubmac said:


> http://www.thestar.com/business/201...to_repay_overcharged_mutual_fund_clients.html
> 
> Wow..I never thought I'd see the day when a MF company repays clients for charging excessive fees!




actually, i don't believe the big green sweetly volunteered the $13.5 million like a little lamb, all by itself, out of the goodness of its heart.

i imagine one or more persistent clients complained over time to the TD & also to the ontario securities commission & to the iiroc.

the issue was examined & the TD saw that it would likely lose in a class action suit. Like most big brokers, it has a history of settling cases before they are heard.

in this "case," the big green settled before there even was a case. It spun up the money - after all $13.5M is peanuts - & it spun up this story of goody-goody innocence & it even managed to spin its whitewashed gossamer web right over the Star reporter's eyes.

the "article" reads like it was copied almost verbatim from a TD press release.


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## leeder (Jan 28, 2012)

*US$ Registered Plan Component - what you need to know *

We're excited to bring you a new US$ Component for your existing Retirement Savings Plan (RSP) and/or Tax Free Savings Account (TFSA). Beginning November 28, you'll be able to maintain US$ cash balances and settle your trades in U.S. dollars, as well as have US$ dividends and interest paid directly to your account in U.S dollars. 

*Here are a few things you need to know leading up to November 28.*

*- November 22,* you'll see the new US$ Component(s) in WebBroker (U=RSP & K=TFSA). 
*- November 24-26,* continue trading U.S. securities in your RSP/TFSA as you always have until the new US$ Component is available for trading on November 28. 
Please note: As you're placing orders, please don't place any orders with "Good Till" dates past November 26. 

- November 26, after market close: 
All *filled *U.S. orders in your RSP/TFSA with a settlement after market close will be transferred to the new US$ Component of your registered accounts(s). 
All open, *unfilled *orders in your RSP/TFSA will be cancelled. If you would like to reenter any orders, this can be done in the US$ Component of your account(s) on November 28. 
All *U.S. priced securities* will be moved to the US$ Component and Dividend Reinvestment Plans will be maintained. 
Please note, full functionally for the new US$ Component is not currently available on the TD mobile app and it’s expected to be available by mid-December. 

If you have any questions or require assistance, please contact an Investment Representative at *1-800-465-5463.* We’re here 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

Thank you for choosing TD Direct Investing.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Great stuff leeder.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

leeder said:


> *US$ Registered Plan Component - what you need to know ...All U.S. priced securities will be moved to the US$ Component ... If you have any questions or require assistance, please contact an Investment Representative at 1-800-465-5463. We’re here 24 hours a day, seven days a week*


*


lol leeder, have you joined the TD & now you are announcing this from your office in the official green tower?

or are you quoting from your account on the TD's website?

PS the salient point is Watch Those US-Priced Securities Real Good. The ones they say are going to be moved.

we'd been wondering what protocol they'd follow for recruiting candidates for the new US side of an account. This looks like the TD is *not* going to be able to recognize the canadian payers of USD dividends - the potash, the goldcorps, the encanas, the thomson-reuters, the constellation softwares, etc - because these will have all been stashed in its formerly monocurrency rrsp & their primary pricing is in CAD.

no problem, for clients who catch it early. Identify what they've done, what they've missed, then phone to ask for any leftovers or omissions to be journalled to US side also.

here's an article with working list of canadian companies that pay USD dividends only. They are mostly widely-held, well-known, popular large caps, so check it out, you might own a few!

http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/category/investing/currency-conversion/


.*


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

Just in time for holiday shopping!, thanks for the info leeder.


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## leeder (Jan 28, 2012)

humble_pie said:


> lol leeder, have you joined the TD & now you are announcing this from your office in the official green tower?
> 
> or are you quoting from your account on the TD's website?


Apparently, the unofficial and unpaid rep for TD .


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Lol


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

leeder said:


> Apparently, the unofficial and unpaid rep for TD .


so glad u haven't gone over

never surrender


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

so they have now created new US accounts for all my registered plans, regardless if i had US securities in plan... all accounts currently empty


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

humble_pie said:


> so glad u haven't gone over
> 
> never surrender


I have Corey Hart in my head now HP! re: Never Surrender!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4pg6Jh94Lo


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## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

I love pop culture references, @My Own Advisor


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

so TD finally rolled out the US component of RRSP this week, at the same time my assets were being transfered to my new brokerage. Results all my US $ assets are still at TD, because they have set it up as 2 accounts, and the transfer order did not hit that part.. 

note: i wish i could think of a clever Corey Hart song title to illustrate this, but i have nothing...


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

So.. TD wants to take you on ??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djV11Xbc914&list=RD-4pg6Jh94Lo&index=2


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

mrPPincer said:


> So.. TD wants to take you on ??
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djV11Xbc914&list=RD-4pg6Jh94Lo&index=2


followed the link, and more appropriately youtube also recommended Don't dream it's over by crowded house.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Nice, Ah-Ha.


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## jaybee (Nov 28, 2014)

So I'm assuming that a TDDI client that has never enabled auto-wash will have to call or visit a branch to set up a TD US$ RRSP\TFSA. *Can someone confirm?* That appears to be the case for my wife's registered accounts. She has a US listed ETF and some shares of ADM in her RRSP but she doesn't have a US$ denominated account.


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## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

jaybee said:


> She has a US listed ETF and some shares of ADM in her RRSP but she doesn't have a US$ denominated account.


That's strange. Is it possible that TDDI hasn't converted her account yet?
I would call TDDI next week to confirm the status of this account.

Here's what my Account numbers look like:
xxxxxx*S* RSP in CDN
xxxxxx*U* RSP in USD
xxxxxx*J* TFSA in CDN
xxxxxx*K* TFSA in USD

All of the securities are appearing in the correct account based on currency.


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## Rysto (Nov 22, 2010)

I also don't have any USD accounts despite holding a significant amount in US-listed ETFs.


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## jaybee (Nov 28, 2014)

Rysto said:


> I also don't have any USD accounts despite holding a significant amount in US-listed ETFs.


Have you done any FX washes with them? It seems like folks that haven't done this are left with the status quo. I would think that if they are going live with US$ TFSA\RRSPs, that they would move all of their customer's registered accounts over automatically.


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## Rysto (Nov 22, 2010)

I do an NG every year, but I don't auto-wash into a USD MMF, so maybe that's it.


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

Rysto said:


> I do an NG every year, but I don't auto-wash into a USD MMF, so maybe that's it.



Yes auto-wash was the trigger to have it done automatically. I had it done even for my TFSA which had no US securities. when i asked, they said they did auto-wash for all my accounts, so duplicated all my accounts.


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## vdimitrov (Dec 1, 2014)

To perform Norbert's Gambit after this change we have to call TD to sell the inter-listed securities on the US side (no instant journal like with BMO or RBC) and pay the phone commission 

www.td.com/to-our-customers/tdhelps/#psce|cid=871|lid=1|tid=001|tags=3

Michael B
from toronto
Nov 30, 2014
at 01:28 PM EST
Hi Vladimir,

I can confirm that you will need to call TD Direct Investing to complete Norbert's Gambit. When speaking to an Investment Representative you will be able to discuss the commission with them as well.

Thanks!


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

vdimitrov said:


> To perform Norbert's Gambit after this change we have to call TD to sell the inter-listed securities on the US side (no instant journal like with BMO or RBC) and pay the phone commission
> 
> www.td.com/to-our-customers/tdhelps/#psce|cid=871|lid=1|tid=001|tags=3
> 
> ...


that was confirmed long time ago. it always was the process on the non registered side. Note that a few regulars here of said that you may be able to have the phone agent waive the extra commission.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

You can use DLR / DLR.U to avoid the phone commission. You still have to call them to journal DLR. You can sell DLR.U yourself when the journal is complete.

This is not ideal, obviously. DLR / DLR.U doesn't give you the best possible exchange rate.

DLR / DLR.U is fine for smaller amounts. For larger amounts, it may be cheaper to pay the phone commission.


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## Uranium101 (Nov 18, 2011)

Couldn't you guys just switch to RBC DI? Their commission is cheaper than TDDI. And they will reimburse you for the transfer fee for as low as $15,000 of the transfer for each account.
I think RBC DI is very generous in their pricing policy. TDDI drained me for a very long time. I was afraid to buy US stocks because I got hit with a $300+ fee for a transaction (and it was one way too). At RBC, NB is automatic, and they will reverse any charges you believe to be mis-charged.

Why put up with TDDI when you can have whatever you needed at RBC DI?


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## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

*Cost to phone TD, to journal the shares?*



Michael B. (TD Helps community) said:


> When speaking to an Investment Representative you will be able to discuss the commission with them as well.


Hmm, I wonder what the above vague quotation means.
- the full phone-based commission (i.e. $43 and greater) *or*
- the $9.99 web-based commission *or*
- perhaps they would journal it for free.

Is he saying, that the commission depends on the client?

I'm wondering if the full phone commission can only be avoided if 
a) you ask nicely  *or*
b) based on your level of business with them.


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

From TD Helps staff


TD Helps staff said:


> I can confirm that you will need to call TD Direct Investing to complete Norbert's Gambit. When speaking to an Investment Representative you will be able to discuss the commission with them as well.


DLR/DLR.U may begin to look more attractive, at least on smaller-medium gambits (assuming they'll still journal a settled DLR purchase without cost). TD's phone commission is $35 + $0.06/share. If you assume 2 cents/share on bid/ask, that's $60 on 250 shares. For say, $30,000, that's getting close to 25 basis points. I haven't looked at it in ages, but I think the normal DLR/exchange rate spread generally worked out to a bit less than that (it is immune to the size of your trade), even with the two web commissions. After about $50,000 (17 basis points), you'd start looking more closely, but it would depend on the interlisted stock you are using (my quick calc was $100 CIBC, but lower-priced stocks add a little bit more), and you'd still have all the uncertainty (plus and minus) of the time between the two trades, versus the certainty of DLR.

I may have to try and resurrect my NG calculator to see what things are like these days. Anyone know of programatically available sources where I can get US and Canadian stock prices listings, and exchange rates, all at the same time base? Yahoo delays some of them 15 minutes, but others are realtime, which makes a proper calc unworkable.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

I just got off the phone with TDW customer support and the guy told me that there would be no fees / commissions to process a Norbert's Gambit even though I'd be required to call in the transaction / journal request. He also explained that there'd be a temporary (3 day) short position in the account, but not to worry - no fees. Originally I called in to figure out how to move non-reg US funds to the new US RRSP. You need to call in for this as well - purchase US money market fund, in-kind transfer, etc. I was also told that there'd be no additional fees / commissions here as well.


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

moisimplementmoi said:


> Yes auto-wash was the trigger to have it done automatically. I had it done even for my TFSA which had no US securities. when i asked, they said they did auto-wash for all my accounts, so duplicated all my accounts.


I don't think this is true. I have an RSP account that had auto-wash enabled and that has both the TD US $ money market fund and US securities in it (that were purchased through the auto-wash mechanism) and no US$ account was automatically set up for that RSP account. I was going to give it a couple weeks to see if they figured out their mistake but maybe I will have to give them a call sooner.

Edit: Checking again, it looks like accounts that auto-wash wasn't enabled on didn't have the US$ accounts created. So it seems that some auto-wash enabled accounts maybe got missed (perhaps the auto-wash needed to be enabled before a certain date).


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

^^^^

Odd ... I didn't have auto-wash enabled and slew of USD accounts showed up. I did have a USD margin account before.


Cheers


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

The accounts where auto-wash was enabled buy US$ accounts haven't showed up had a joint account associated with them (under the same access card number, obviously not the same account number) that had a US margin account. I am sure that a phone call will be able to quickly get the accounts properly set up. It is just a little bit disappointing that it didn't happen as smoothly as I was expecting it to.


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

0xCC said:


> The accounts where auto-wash was enabled buy US$ accounts haven't showed up had a joint account associated with them (under the same access card number, obviously not the same account number) that had a US margin account. I am sure that a phone call will be able to quickly get the accounts properly set up. It is just a little bit disappointing that it didn't happen as smoothly as I was expecting it to.


actually mine went really smoothly, which totally messed up the transfer out of TDDI... :-(


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## PuckiTwo (Oct 26, 2011)

avrex said:


> Hmm, I wonder what the above vague quotation means.
> - the full phone-based commission (i.e. $43 and greater) *or*
> - the $9.99 web-based commission *or*
> - perhaps they would journal it for free.
> ...


This morning we were quoted $60 for buy/sell an interlisted stock. And that only on the 2nd phone call. First phone call rep told that there is no auto-wash anymore. He didn't know the term "Norbert's Gambit" either. If it weren't so cumbersome I would move somewhere else.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

PuckiTwo said:


> This morning we were quoted $60 for buy/sell an interlisted stock. And that only on the 2nd phone call. First phone call rep told that there is no auto-wash anymore. He didn't know the term "Norbert's Gambit" either. If it weren't so cumbersome I would move somewhere else.


That's very strange. I just got off the phone with a TD representative. He told me to purchase an interlistic stock on the CDN side (RSP) then call in to have the interlistic shares transferred and sold on the US side (CDN). He confirmed to me that they would ONLY charge me the $9.99 WebBroker fee.

I will give it a try and let you know how it works out.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

I just did a test trade to figure this out - and it worked! Here's what I did in my RRSP:

1. Purchased TD (CDN Market) - 200 shares @ 56.92 (+$9.99 com)
2. Called TD and had the shares transferred and immediately sold on the US Market - 200 shares @ 50.08 (+9.99 com).

Done. The US account appears to be in a short position (how I described in one of my previous posts) but I can go ahead and purchase any new US stock with the proceeds. The TD rep / trader appoliged for some of the new traders / reps that may not be familiar with the process but they / TD are happy to process these types of trades for us and mentioned that they will honour the $9.99 commission on the sell side.

Now I just need to do the math to see if I save a few dollars on fx charges.

Edit: It turns out that I saved approximately $152.82 according to the TD foreign exchange calculator (with an exchange rate of 1.1564).


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## PuckiTwo (Oct 26, 2011)

Synergy said:


> I just did a test trade to figure this out - and it worked! Here's what I did in my RRSP:
> Edit: It turns out that I saved approximately $152.82 according to the TD foreign exchange calculator (with an exchange rate of 1.1564).


Thks Synergy, I will try again tomorrow.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

the above messsages seem to be par for the course, now is an interim period during which broker & clients are settling down, but not everything syncs perfectly yet.

it's such valuable comparison info when clients post about their experiences, imho.

what i gather at the TD is that most - but not all - of the licensed reps have discretionary amounts that they can bestow upon deserving clients, in order to correct a fault, or to assist in offering a low web commish for currency gambit trades.

it's my understanding that not all the newly-hired representatives do have these discretionary allowances to give out, though.

if refused a low web commish, a client can call back later, hoping to reach a more senior representative, just as Pucki did.

i also noticed an excellent recent suggestion from larry81. He said take down the name & extension number of a representative who is able to float your gambit trade like a pro. Then ask for that representative every time you wish to arb.

currency gambit trading has always been an on-again-off-again operation at the TD. The rules always seem to keep changing lol.

strictly from the broker's pov, i can see the advantages of *not* training all the licensed reps to a high degree. Without any formal rules or written instruction in place, management is easily able to modify the house procedures in a flash.


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

based on Humble's comment about relaying experience, mine relates to moving from TD with an RRSP with Can and US components. 

My transfer from RRSP was processed last week. Obviously that was just after the splitting of the account. As much as TDDI is claiming it is not 2 separate accounts RRSP-Can RRSP-US, for the system to handle it they actually partitioned them and it looks like two accounts. So result, my new broker only received the securities in Canadian traded in Canadian funds. When i called TDDI, they said they were aware of the issue, but it would be handled as starting from scratch, so expect 5-10 days to get the US$ securities transfered. My main worry at this point, is even though they say it will not incur any additional transfer fee, that the system is automated. This would be an issue, as obviously there was no cash in the US$ component, so they would need to sell securities. i'll provide more info, when this proceeds.


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## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

@Synergy Thanks for this info.
So from what you are saying, it sounds like the RRSP/TFSA *Gambit* process is the same as it was before the introduction of the USD account.

*1. * The *only cost* is the buy and sell of the interlisted stock. i.e. 2 x $9.99
*2. * The shares can be *journalled over instantly *by the TDDI rep, via a phone call. 
The shares can then be immediately sold. i.e. there is no T+3 days for settlement.
*3. * There is *no charge* for the phone call or to journal the shares.

Great news.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

Yes (#1,#2 & #3), that was my experience today and what the rep told me to expect in the future. I was quite pleased with the process, quick and painless. This was actually my first Gambit as I've been waiting patiently for TD to offer the US$ registered accounts.


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

avrex said:


> @Synergy Thanks for this info.
> So from what you are saying, it sounds like the RRSP/TFSA *Gambit* process is the same as it was before the introduction of the USD account.
> 
> *1. * The *only cost* is the buy and sell of the interlisted stock. i.e. 2 x $9.99
> ...


Isn't the point that this is NOT "the same as it was before"? If I understand the old single-account TD SDRSP system, you bought your stock, and sold it immediately into the opposite exchange? NO phone call, NO journalling? Isn't the new system the same as how it has been done in TD's non-registered accounts? My understanding was that for non-registered, TD has been charging the phone commission on the second half to journal/execute? 

If they didn't charge that on an RRSP this time, great, but that might just be a temporary thing while they get people settled into the new SDRSP setups, or perhaps Synergy is a valued high-worth client, or maybe just random luck or the phase of the moon. I'm not sure why'd they'd have a separate policy for doing the same thing in non-registered and registered accounts - you may not want to count on this being for everyone, or permanent. And if not, it probably won't help to say "but you did it for some guy on the internet back in 2014"...


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

NorthernRaven said:


> My understanding was that for non-registered, TD has been charging the phone commission on the second half to journal/execute?


I've done this with POT in my non-registered account and I never got charged a "phone" commission. I talked to 2 separate people today at to different times - one was a supervisor and they both told me that they'd honor the $9.99 transaction for RRSP accounts.

It's not an identical process but the outcome is the same. Only time will tell whether this will work for the masses. Let's hope others will share their experiences.


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## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

NorthernRaven said:


> Isn't the point that this is NOT "the same as it was before"? If I understand the old single-account TD SDRSP system, you bought your stock, and sold it immediately into the opposite exchange? NO phone call, NO journalling?


Correct. In the old system, you didn't need to make a phone call, you could do the transaction instantly. This new process does include that extra step of a phone call.
I guess what I should have said was that, the *cost is the same as before* for the registered account. i.e. no charge for the phone call to journal.



NorthernRaven said:


> I'm not sure why'd they'd have a separate policy for doing the same thing in non-registered and registered accounts - you may not want to count on this being for everyone, or permanent.


Yes, it is odd that there looks like a different policy (i.e. a charge for the journal in the) registered vs. non-registered.

Maybe we shouldn't get too excited, yet.
Or perhaps TD should also not charge the phone commission for the non-registered accounts too.


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

Synergy said:


> I've done this with POT in my non-registered account and I never got charged a "phone" commission. I talked to 2 separate people today at to different times - one was a supervisor and they both told me that they'd honor the $9.99 transaction for RRSP accounts.
> 
> It's not an identical process but the outcome is the same. Only time will tell whether this will work for the masses. Let's hope others will share their experiences.


Here's someone from summer 2013 doing a non-registered TD gambit, whose rep not only charged the phone commission, but used the phrase "Norbert's gambit" and said he was following clear instructions to charge the phone commission.



FWF forum said:


> At that point he explains that he has very clear instructions on this type of trade to charge the phone rate. I protest. He says "but you are really doing foreign exchange. It's called Norbert's Gambit, right?" I nearly fall off my chair.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

it's been 2-3 years since the big green *officially* settled into a policy of charging full phone commish for the sell side of a gambit pair. 

back then, few representatives even knew that their RRSP platform was offering this capability instantly & online. Even among the experienced team managers & the resource persons, few were aware of this pleasant (for clients) capability. Yet the clients knew. The clients often shared the information here in cmf forum. Many parties on here learned how to work an RRSP gambit. Many benefited.

Northern Raven's summer 2013 historical example of a TD rep who insisted upon the full phone commish fits perfectly into the evolution of this story. Because soon after this example, in late 2013-early 2014, the big green began unofficially relaxing the phone commission rules for gambit trades. Not officially. Only unofficially.

over the past year, it's been clear that representatives were being given more latitude to grant a gambit web commission to a client. Apparently, each such decision was to be made by each rep on a case-by-case basis. It became very common for a gambit sell transaction to be handled by phone at the web commission. Refusals were rare & were often tied to the inexperience of a novice representative.

but the official written rules for the agents continued to uphold the full phone commission.

quixotically, it is to a broker's advantage to *not* issue a rigid policy on this complex arbitrage trade - which is what gambit trading really is.

it is to a broker's advantage to *not* train representatives to a standard, uniform level that is to be formally disclosed as official fee policy. Training is costly; re-training even costlier. No policy means the TD can modify its fluctuating conduct overnight. Today can be universal web commish. Tomorrow can be universal phone commish.

however, everyone can see that TD clients have plenty of negotiating power with which to resist any reinstatement of gambit phone commissions. At every moment, BMO & roybank brokers stand ready to offer instant online gambit trading in both registered & non-registered accounts, for low online commissions plus no phone calls. Enuf said.


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## moisimplementmoi (Oct 20, 2014)

humble_pie said:


> however, everyone can see that TD clients have plenty of negotiating power with which to resist any reinstatement of gambit phone commissions. At every moment, BMO & roybank brokers stand ready to offer instant online gambit trading in both registered & non-registered accounts, for low online commissions plus no phone calls. Enuf said.


and in all fairness all brokers have their quirks, as i discovered doing my first gambit at BMO, and the sell order was my 5th transaction of the day (was using the switch and free trades to rebalance), and got a dreaded trade sent for review! (thankfully market stayed stable for the few anxious minutes). but except for that it was so simple. got the cash, then easy trade for US security (again sent for review) no waiting on the phone (i will give TD advantage on phone service waiting time so far, i would hate to have to phone BMO for a gambit).


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## PuckiTwo (Oct 26, 2011)

*URGENT - AGENT Commission*

*URGENT* Has anybody lately performed a Norbert's Gambit in an RRSP account? I just came off 3 phone calls with TDDI wanting to buy/sell stockTD as an interlisted stock, buy TD on CAD side and sell on the USD side. 
- 1st rep didn't know anything about it, said it would cost forex fee, spread 1.6%!!!
- 2nd rep knew Norbert's Gambit but said I can buy online TD on CAD side (like Synergy described upthread). BUT then call and they will journal over for an agent fee $39 + 0.08 cts/share. That makes 0.275 cts per share when journalling 200 shares over. He went to his resource manager, was told that clients' information had been unclear and they have an email that they have to be consistent. I hung up.
- 3rd rep knew also the system and told me the same as the 2nd one. I told him what some customers had posted on Canadian Money Forum. He went also to the resource manager - and now listen to this:
"They don't want to be unreasonable, they will give me one time a discount (9.99 commission on the sell side) BUT then he will put a note on the file that from now on we will have to pay in all accounts (we have 5) agent commission. I hung up.

What do I do? Can anybody post his experiences in the last 10 days? Poockie


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

PuckiTwo said:


> *URGENT* Has anybody lately performed a Norbert's Gambit in an RRSP account? I just came off 3 phone calls with TDDI wanting to buy/sell stockTD as an interlisted stock, buy TD on CAD side and sell on the USD side.


Strange, the fellow told me that I should expect to pay $9.99 for the call in the future (journal/sell). I'm going to do it again in another week or so and I will post my results again. If they try to charge $40 I will fight this and have them look up my records / past phone calls - when I was told to expect $9.99 for future transactions. IMO they should offer the $9.99 trade as I would do the whole thing online but I can't because the system isn't SMART enough!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

it's true that there are plenty of ways to struggle back while the pendulum swings.

it's sad but true that hi value clients get treated better. There's one TD client over on FWR whose value is so high that he gets to do the gambit backwards while the TD behaves (for him) like a sweet little newborn lamb.

he shorts first for an online commish. Then he buys long to cover the short, also an online commish. When he gets around to it, he calls for the stock to journal.

brokers do not like this strategy, i imagine because it means non-paying gambit traders will be helping themselves to valuable & limited inventories of true shortable stocks, which the broker wants to lend out far more profitably to genuinely-shorting clients.

so when TD catches clients doing the short-first gambit strategy, they scold them severely. I'm told that for any Robin Hood clients who dare to persist with short-first gambit strategies, the big green has got other, nastier punishments up its quiver of arrows.

our friend over there on FWR was shorting away like a locomotive, though, & the big green was drooling all over him. I imagine it might mean an account nudging something like 10M :biggrin:


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## pablito (Apr 3, 2009)

Hi:

I was about to do a gambit within an RRSP today, but luckily realized that the process likely had changed since the RRSP CAD/USD account split a month ago. Anyway, I phone TDDI and asked the agent what the process now was to sell an inter-listed stock on the opposing exchange. He seemed to know exactly where I was going and explained that I would have to do the buy online myself, but that the journaling/sell side would need to be done by calling in. Before I even had to ask, he explained that the cost for their side would be the 9.99$ webbroker commission.

Given PuckiTwo's recent experience, I thought I'd add to the thread. Hopefully I won't have any trouble, but I guess I'll get an agent on the line first and complete the buy only once I have someone 'knowledgeable' to hand.

@Synergy: Did you try another gambit since? Just wondering...

I'll report back after I've done it.

Cheers,
Pab


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Interesting Pab. Thanks for sharing this.


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

pablito said:


> ... realized that the process likely had changed since the RRSP CAD/USD account split a month ago. Anyway, I phone TDDI and asked the agent what the process now was to sell an inter-listed stock on the opposing exchange. He seemed to know exactly where I was going and explained that I would have to do the buy online myself, but that the journaling/sell side would need to be done by calling in. Before I even had to ask, he explained that the cost for their side would be the 9.99$ webbroker commission.
> Pab


I talked to TDWH yesterday too. What I was told is that I buy online myself, call in and wait 3 days for the journal over to the USD side then sell. Wasn't too impressed with that option as 3 days settlement could see significant price swings on an interlisted stock. Maybe best to use DLR and DLR.U if the 3 day waiting to journal sticks.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

pablito said:


> @Synergy: Did you try another gambit since? Just wondering...


Thanks for posting Pab! I've yet to do another test. I've got a lot of US currency just sitting in a non-registered account that I decided to put to use inside my RRSP. Therefore, no need to gambit at the present time. I don't foresee any issues and I don't know why others appear to be having difficulties.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

Xoron said:


> I talked to TDWH yesterday too. What I was told is that I buy online myself, call in and wait 3 days for the journal over to the USD side then sell. Wasn't too impressed with that option as 3 days settlement could see significant price swings on an interlisted stock. Maybe best to use DLR and DLR.U if the 3 day waiting to journal sticks.


As explained in one of my posts above, one does not need to wait 3 days. TDDI will journal & sell immediately. Your account will appear to be in a temporary short position, but no need to worry. In 3 days once the transactions settle, everything looks normal again. It's a relatively simple process, it's just a matter of whether or not they will honor the $9.99 trade on the sell side for you. Looks like Pab received the same information I got when I called / completed a gambit trade ($9.99 web com for the journal / sale).


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## pablito (Apr 3, 2009)

Synergy said:


> I've got a lot of US currency just sitting in a non-registered account that I decided to put to use inside my RRSP. Therefore, no need to gambit at the present time.


I'm afraid you're mistaken. This is from their "How To" message that they sent a little while back. It still shows up in my message list when I log in:

*3) Contributions cannot be made directly to the $USD component of the RSP or TFSA. Contributions are made to the $CDN component and then you can use the Foreign Exchange function in WebBroker or EasyWeb to move funds to the $USD component.*

This is unfortunately nothing new as I got bit by this about a year ago. I had USD funds available and called in asking how to have it deposited directly in the USD money market fund to avoid the FX conversion. "No can do" is what I was told back then... which really sucked as I hadn't expected that and had already shelled out for FX. Doesn't look like they've changed the practice though it seems to make even less sense now. Maybe it is a CRA thing? Dunno...

Update: Hmmm... item number 8 hits that it might indeed have something to do with the CRA. Not conclusive, but anyway...

*8) Tax Slips- There will be no tax slips issued separately in the name of the $USD component of the TFSA/RSP since contributions and deregistrations are not allowed.*

Pab


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## pablito (Apr 3, 2009)

Xoron said:


> I talked to TDWH yesterday too. What I was told is that I buy online myself, call in and wait 3 days for the journal over to the USD side then sell. Wasn't too impressed with that option as 3 days settlement could see significant price swings on an interlisted stock. Maybe best to use DLR and DLR.U if the 3 day waiting to journal sticks.


Admiteddly, I did not explicitly ask if there would be a delay, but he did not mention any and I was left to understand that it would be immediate. In your case it is within an RRSP too right? Anyway, I guess I'll see tomorrow...


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

pablito said:


> I'm afraid you're mistaken. This is from their "How To" message that they sent a little while back


You may want to check with TDDI again. I just spoke with one of the managers a few weeks back and I was told that all I need to do is purchase USD money market and they will transfer this over in-kind to my RRSP. Perhaps they transfer it to the CAN side and then journal the shares over to the US side. Either way, I was told no fx fees, no commissions to transfer, etc. When I get back from vacation in the end of January I'll give it a try.


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## leeder (Jan 28, 2012)

I chatted with one of their traders earlier this afternoon on a separate issue, and I asked him about Norbert's Gambit. His message to me about performing Norbert's Gambit in the RRSP was that:

1) You can still buy an interlisted stock (e.g., TD, SU, CNQ, HSE, etc.), so no need to use the DLR method and wait T+3 days, etc.
2) You can call them right away (on trade date) and not have to wait till settlement date
3) TDDI trader will perform the journal over to the US side

He indicates that the new US $ RRSP account creates more work on the part of the traders and less work on the investor. He encourages the investor to journal it over on the trade date rather than settlement to reduce the volatility (i.e., in case the initial purchase of the stock goes down). In terms of commission, he admits it's a hit or miss depending on whom you get. He says the "textbook" response is to charge the $43 or whatever phone commission. However, he himself and some other traders he knows typically do not charge the phone commission if it's a one-time journal over transaction. From what he says, it seems to be a professional judgment thing on their part. In essence, if you get a good trader, you should only be charged the initial buy and sell commission to get US cash.


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## livewell (Dec 1, 2013)

I think TD would like to recover what they see as lost FX revenue by charging phone commissions where possible for immediate journaling, but are aware that customer sentiment does not like that. They could if they wanted make it trivial to NG just by enabling direct (online) journaling of stocks between linked accounts (The capability to buy/sell on CDN & US markets exists as it did before the change). Making customers call in for journaling is IMO deliberate policy to create inertia for performing an NG (But not too much that it will lose customers to other brokers)


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## pablito (Apr 3, 2009)

Synergy said:


> I just spoke with one of the managers a few weeks back and I was told that all I need to do is purchase USD money market and they will transfer this over in-kind to my RRSP.


Buying the money market fund BEFORE putting it into the RRSP never occurred to me (or the agent I spoke to). Thanks for pointing it out. I will keep it in mind if the opportunity ever presents itself again. Thanks!


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## pablito (Apr 3, 2009)

Just following up as promised...

I did my calculations and then called an agent. I initially chose the wrong phone option and ended up with someone not authorised for trading. He forwarded me on and I explained what I was told yesterday and sure enough he confirmed. Only then did I actually complete the buy of MFC (clicked next and entered my trading password). I offered the ask price so the trade settled immediately. He then journal-ed them over while I was on hold which took about 3-4 minutes. When he came back, he confirmed the exact sale I wished to complete and proceeded.

I was charged the $9.99 commission for the sell, but he did note that it should have warranted the 'usual' phone commission cost. He said he'd honour the lower fee as I'd been promised it the day before. Not sure what that will mean going forward, but I guess we'll see.

Oh and he himself used the term "Norbert's Gambit". I specifically didn't mention it so chuckled when he did. 

Pab


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

^ Thanks for the update Pab. Looks like you might have to negotiate the lower rate each time you attempt a NG. I have documented that I was told to expect the web commish of $9.99 for future gambit trades so I will be holding them to this! Best of luck to others, only time will tell.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

pablito said:


> Buying the money market fund BEFORE putting it into the RRSP never occurred to me (or the agent I spoke to). Thanks for pointing it out. I will keep it in mind if the opportunity ever presents itself again. Thanks!


Here's how it works, with one catch. Purchase TDB166 (TD US money market) in your non-registered account. Wait 1 day (T+1) for the trade to settle. Call TDDI and have them transfer TDB166 to your RRSP account (first to the CDN side, then journalled over to the US side). Here's the catch. An exchange rate has to apply to the amount being transferred considering your RRSP contributions can only be made in CDN funds. Your contribution will depend on the current exchange rate. There will however be no fees / fx charges and the actual dollar amount in TDB166 will NEVER change. Since the US dollar is strong, it would appear to be a great time to process such a transfer, thoughts??


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Interesting...

To be clear...

1. Own TDB166 in your CDN $ RRSP, no costs to buy it inside CDN $ RRSP since it's a TD product. 

2. Wait one day, let transaction settle, then have TDB166 journalled over to USD $-side of RRSP.

3. Sell TDB166 on USD $-side of RRSP, depositing USD $ cash, ready for US-listed transaction.

?


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

My Own Advisor said:


> Interesting...
> 
> To be clear...
> 
> ...


Sorry for the confusion. I was talking about existing US $'s located inside a non-registered account. Therefore,

#1. Buy TDB166 with existing US $'s inside your non-registered account.
#2. Wait T+1, then call to have TDB166 transferred to your RRSP (CDN $ side).
#3. Request TDDI to journal TDB166 over to the US $ side
#4. Sell TDB166

Otherwise, you'd be doing the NG, no need for TDB166. To your #1. I don't think you can buy TDB166 within the CDN $ RRSP since you can't hold US $'s in that account.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

So, I got my new $US RSP and TFSA a few days ago. I worked out my RSP contribution room and phoned up to move some cash. They wanted the money to be in TDB8152 which I had enough of. I had understood that they would issue the tax receipt at the spot rate -- 1.1955 when I called them. But they said they had to use the buy-rate for the RRSP which would be 1.2130. If was actually trading currency at that rate I would be outraged. But as it is I am still trying to decide how I feel about it.

On the one hand the high exchange rate has reduced the amount of my actual contribution, limiting how much I have in there. So I feel cheated a bit.

On the other hand, it will artificially inflate the size of the tax receipt compared to how much actual money I put in. So I will get a bonus on my taxed income.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

gardner said:


> So, I got my new $US RSP and TFSA a few days ago. I worked out my RSP contribution room and phoned up to move some cash. They wanted the money to be in TDB8152 which I had enough of. I had understood that they would issue the tax receipt at the spot rate -- 1.1955 when I called them. But they said they had to use the buy-rate for the RRSP which would be 1.2130. If was actually trading currency at that rate I would be outraged. But as it is I am still trying to decide how I feel about it.
> 
> On the one hand the high exchange rate has reduced the amount of my actual contribution, limiting how much I have in there. So I feel cheated a bit.
> 
> On the other hand, it will artificially inflate the size of the tax receipt compared to how much actual money I put in. So I will get a bonus on my taxed income.




excellent analysis! one has to take comfort in all crumbs these days, one being the slightly higher value of the tax deduction in CAD, as you point out.

just for the record, BMO accepts US dollars as plain cash into registered accounts. BMO uses the Bank of Canada noon rate - ie spot rate or extremely close to it - to calculate the value of such cash contributions in CAD. No shuffling into or out of MM funds with weird figures.

to calculate a CAD contribution accurately at BMO, though, i imagine the best approach might be to make one's contribution shortly after the noon rate appears.

it's interesting how so many of these differences - how different brokers manage currency gambits, registered accounts, registered contributions, etc - are actually due to their different mainframe builds. It's difficult & sometimes downright impossible for software developers to install patches or innovations. 

the TD & BMO mainframes are very different. TD is built on IBM's legacy ISM system, an old DOS system that is a legendary, zero-fault, failure-proof workhorse. Most other brokers also lease ISM, which is why they're all having so much difficulty with dual-currency USD RRSPs.

BMO & roybank are built on ADP, a different system entirely. It buys & sells stock for clients using CUSIP numbers only. This is why online currency gambit trading at BMO & roybank is so spectacularly effortless & instantaneous.

eg, if you buy royal bank shares on toronto at BMO or royal bank broker, the ADP system buys CUSIP number 780087-10-2. When you go to sell those same RY shares on new york 5 seconds later, the system obediently sells CUSIP number 780087-10-2. I guess it "thinks" you are aspiring to become an HFT trader lol.

in any event no phone call to a BMO or roybank licensed rep is necessary, no elaborate discussion re the commish, both online trades are low-cost online commissions.

that being said, there *are* negatives about BMO broker, just as there *are* negatives about every broker. Investors have to figure out which broker has the strengths that they are seeking.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Incidentally, they asked "how do I feel about the service of TDDI" -- I mentioned to the trader that I was annoyed at always having to call them to do routine journaling of stuff between accounts and wished I could do that online. He told me that this precise feature was in the works and would be available "soon" for some unspecified value of "soon".


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

gardner said:


> On the one hand the high exchange rate has reduced the amount of my actual contribution, limiting how much I have in there. So I feel cheated a bit.
> 
> On the other hand, it will artificially inflate the size of the tax receipt compared to how much actual money I put in. So I will get a bonus on my taxed income.


I'm a bit confused by your analysis. I transferred 5K US money market from a non-registered account into my RRSP at TD and I got exactly 5K sitting in the US$ side of my RRSP. It's showing up as a slight loss secondary to the calculations (sale) they had to do for the CRA, but 5K is 5K, no? The exchange rate appeared favorable as well. Perhaps I'm missing something here.


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

Could anyone please tell me what i have to do to "activate" my USD TSFA & RRSP accounts ? Do i need to call in or what ? Is this a secret Webbroker feature that need to be activated with a special set of keystrokes like some video game ?


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

larry81 said:


> Could anyone please tell me what i have to do to "activate" my USD TSFA & RRSP accounts ? Do i need to call in or what ? Is this a secret Webbroker feature that need to be activated with a special set of keystrokes like some video game ?


Call TDDI, they will set you up. It happened automatically for me, but I've heard others had to call in. Good luck.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Didn't it already occur for you larry81? If you had U.S.-listed securities, it should have "happened" for you (by TD) without you doing anything.


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

Here some few tips/observations regarding Nobert Gambit at TDDI:

- You can use DLR/DLR.U for smaller amount but for anything over 50k you should use a high volume inter-listed stock. I personally always use TD but there plenty of others.

- Tell your TDDI rep that you want to perform a Nobert Gambit and ask if he is familiar with the operation. If he is not, abort and simply call back and find another rep. This might save you time and a lot of potential trouble (nobody want botched gambit, you want to buy and sell as fast as possible. Any delay for the sell operation expose you to stock swing that might not be in your favor!)

- Take note of the name and phone extension of any NG friendly TDDI rep that you come across. After a few months, i now have a list of 7-8 NG friendly TDDI buddies that i always call back.

- Regarding commission, some rep might say that you will need to pay the phone commission for the sell operation. From my own personal experience, I believe this is a combination of having a certain amount of business with TDDI and asking nicely. I am personally happy that all of my NG friendly TDDI buddies are more than happy to charge me 9.99$ for the sell operation, in fact this is one of the reason that they make it on my list of super-exclusive NG friendly buddies.

- Finally, always be polite !

I perform about 15 rather large NG transaction annually in my non-reg accounts. The process is painless since i always speak to the same TDDI reps and know their names. Recently they started offering to perform both the buy/sell operation for two commission of 9.99$. The rep still need to confirm the transaction verbally with me but both operation take less than 1 min to perform and absolutely no stress.

Good luck to all


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

My Own Advisor said:


> Didn't it already occur for you larry81? If you had U.S.-listed securities, it should have "happened" for you (by TD) without you doing anything.


I had no US securities in either my TFSA or RRSP at TD and it still happened automatically. I did however have the auto wash feature activated.


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

My Own Advisor said:


> Didn't it already occur for you larry81? If you had U.S.-listed securities, it should have "happened" for you (by TD) without you doing anything.


I have USD/CAD non-registered accounts but all my registered accounts are CAD only (RRSP-RESP-TFSA). I never performed any USD operation in these accounts. In fact i don't really have a need for USD RRSP-RESP-TFSA, i just want my slice of anything that TDDI is offer at no cost !


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

larry81 said:


> The process is painless


Same, I've yet to have any issues and I've only paid the $9.99 com.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

larry81 said:


> I have USD/CAD non-registered accounts but all my registered accounts are CAD only


This was my exact situation. I just called them. They needed overnight to set it up, but the accounts were ready for action the next day.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

larry81 said:


> Could anyone please tell me what i have to do to "activate" my USD TSFA & RRSP accounts ? Do i need to call in or what ? Is this a secret Webbroker feature that need to be activated with a special set of keystrokes like some video game ?


I'm so happy that moved my biggest RRSP from TDDI to CIBC IE


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## maxandrelax (Jul 11, 2012)

I held POT.to and ABX.to in CAD TFSA. When the $US account opened, I had them journaled to that side in order to benefit from the dividends being paid in $US, to avoid the currency conversion costs. They are now in $US. When I think about it, was that a mistake? Will I now lose because dividend withholding tax? 

Is it possible to have just the dividends deposited into the US side while keeping the $CAN stocks that pay dividends in $US?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

maxandrelax said:


> Is it possible to have just the dividends deposited into the US side while keeping the $CAN stocks that pay dividends in $US?


In Questrade it is. Settle in CAD, USD or currency of trade. Within the same account. When will the big boys catch up?


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

maxandrelax said:


> They are now in $US. When I think about it, was that a mistake? *Will I now lose because dividend withholding tax?*


That would only be the case if you held foreign stocks.

Eligible inter-listed Canadian stocks are not subject to tax withholding. The currency of the dividend does not make the companies foreign.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

You did the right thing.

Hold your CDN dividend paying stocks that pay dividends in USD $$ in the US dollar side of your TFSA.

No withholding tax.

You can also own British dividend paying stocks (ADRs) inside the US dollar side of your TFSA and get US income, tax-free income, AND no withholding taxes.

Examples include RDS.B (B shares only), AZN, GSK, and more. I think I'll be doing this in 2016 since it would be nice to start a USD tax free income machine


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## Getafix (Dec 29, 2014)

Hey guys, i have a question about opening up a USD TFSA account. Currently i have a CAD TFSA account with a mix of U.S and Canadian stocks. Would it be better to ask TD to open up a U.S TFSA account and transfer the U.S stocks to that account and keep all future U.S purchases there? So that everytime i'm doing trades i'm not losing a bit on currency exchange? 

Also, can the total yearly TFSA contribution be split between two TFSA accounts?


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## maxandrelax (Jul 11, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> That would only be the case if you held foreign stocks.
> 
> Eligible inter-listed Canadian stocks are not subject to tax withholding. The currency of the dividend does not make the companies foreign.


GOT IT. I IS DUM. That is why I did it in the first place, but forgot that important aspect. This is why I am not an accountant.


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## maxandrelax (Jul 11, 2012)

My Own Advisor said:


> Examples include RDS.B (B shares only), AZN, GSK, and more. I think I'll be doing this in 2016 since it would be nice to start a USD tax free income machine


Thumbs up!


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

maxandrelax said:


> 1. GOT IT. I IS DUM.
> 2. This is why I am not an accountant.


*1.* We all have such 4getful days.
*2.* I always give my accountant friend reasons why I'm not one either. :biggrin:

To add to MOA's list, in addition to British ADRs, Australian stocks [depending on the company], can also have zero withholding taxes for Canadians. Companies pay either a partial or fully franked dividend, and in the case of the latter, there is no double taxation for anyone, so good in any account, registered or not. 

As a reminder, eligible dividends from US companies also have no withholding taxes, but only in RRSPs.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Getafix said:


> 1. Would it be better to ask TD to open up a U.S TFSA account and transfer the U.S stocks to that account?
> 2. Also, can the total yearly TFSA contribution be split between two TFSA accounts?


*1.* Take advantage of the dual arrangement [that not all brokers offer yet] & keep Canadian companies that pay dividends in USD in the US sub-account, also to avoid conversion fees. You can check their websites to learn in what currency their dividends are declared/paid. 

Edit: I'm not with TD, but reading from the 1st post, there would have been nothing for you to do as the process of adding a sub-account would have been automatic.

*'we'll automatically transfer your US$ assets and related Dividend Reinvestment Plan registrations to the new US$ component.'*

All you would have to do is identify Canadian stocks paying dividends in USD, and ask the broker to have them transferred to the USD sub-account.

*2.* Yes, just don't go over your contribution limit.


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## Getafix (Dec 29, 2014)

Thanks!


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## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

Something just occurred to me. 

Prior to the Nov 2014 addition of the U.S. dollar account component to RRSP/TFSA accounts, *we were forced to use* the TD U.S. Money Market Fund (TDB166) to hold our US dollars. Upon conversion of those accounts, in Nov, our US dollars remain in TDB166. When we want to purchase US stocks, I noticed a message reminding me to sell the appropriate amount of TDB166, in order for the trade to be settled smoothly.

Looking at the latest info on TDB166, I noticed that it has a *Yield of 0.11%* and a *MER of 0.12%*.

Based on those numbers, I think I will *sell my TDB166 positions* and just hold my excess USD cash as.....USD cash.

The TDB166 fund seems to have no use or benefit, now that TD has a US dollar account system.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

That's true. I called the other day and found out I had to sell all the the TDB166 prior to buying any US stock. Done and done.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

avrex said:


> Something just occurred to me.
> 
> Prior to the Nov 2014 addition of the U.S. dollar account component to RRSP/TFSA accounts, *we were forced to use* the TD U.S. Money Market Fund (TDB166) to hold our US dollars. Upon conversion of those accounts, in Nov, our US dollars remain in TDB166. When we want to purchase US stocks, I noticed a message reminding me to sell the appropriate amount of TDB166, in order for the trade to be settled smoothly.
> 
> ...


If this is so, would it mean we actually lose money holding TDB166? I earned 14 cents this month, so it seems like it is still paying out a little bit. Unless they're surreptitiously taking money out of my balance without reflecting it in the activity feed.


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## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

Spudd said:


> ...so it seems like it is still paying out a little bit.


Ya, I think you're right, Spudd.
I just calculated the yield for the 30-Jan-2015 monthly payout. It looks like it paid out at an annual rate of *0.09%.* 
This is the amount after the MER is taken out. 

So, yes, we are still making a few bucks by holding TDB166. (ex. $9 annually for holding $10,000).

However, I think I'll still sell my TDB166 positions, as it will be easier to buy/sell US stocks with US cash vs buying/selling the TDB166 for US cash.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

none said:


> found out I had to sell all the the TDB166 prior to buying any US stock


Why can't you use the TDB8152 HISA units? I have had happy success using that. They dropped the rate on it last month, but it still yields 0.20%


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Because 0.2% is $20 on 10K.... why even bother at that rate? Might as well mobilize the cash and let it sit.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

none said:


> Because 0.2% is $20 on 10K


More than double the yield of TDB166. And it *IS* cash, isn't it?

I am not trying to argue you should sell down your CVX and go into TDB8152 HISA units, just wondering how TDB166 might be needed vs. TDB8152, which seems a better choice to me.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Thanks for the tip! I will look into TDB8152, sounds like it beats TDB166. For me I don't mind having the little inconvenience of having to buy/sell it, as I rarely do so.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

on another aspect of the TD prism, currency gambits. I encountered a junior TD rep the other day. He belongs to the school that's rigid about charging the full agent-handled commission for the sell side of a gambit trade.

i asked him what his clients do when they reach him & he says no web commish?

they don't do the trade, he replied. They hang up.

aha, one can see cmf forum at work. All those advices & suggestions that if a TD gambit client is seeking a web commish for the sell side, he should cruise on through recalcitrant agents until he reaches one who is agreeable. 

when one thinks about it, it's a bit silly from the broker's point of view. At present, they have agents listening to half of a gambit trade, then the client backs out. Wouldn't the broker be better off if it stopped the shilly-shallying? wouldn't broker do better if it would just have one reasonable small fee for the gambit sell side - say $15 to journal the stock - & then apply this without exception to *all* clients great & small?

right now they have a privileged client system that's not exactly secret knowledge. Hi value clients nearly always get the web commish. Lo value clients mostly get stiffed. Me i can't see how this will help the broker's rep in the long run.


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## MRT (Apr 8, 2013)

meh...no different than how the banks do business in their other domains. 

in mortgages, appraisal fees are 'firm'...until they are not. someone with a larger mortgage, or who simply makes a lot of noise, can have such fees waived, while the rest are told that they are non-negotiable. the same happens in retail banking with general account fees - find an agreeable rep or manager and they flag the account to have fees waived for a year, two years, whatever. 

is it good for business, particularly when the inconsistency is not exactly a secret? when employees waste time fielding such requests, pestering managers for authorizations, etc? Seems like poor use of resources, but given that it has been going on for years (decades, even), it doesn't seem to be an major thorn in the banks' side. Where TDW is sketchy on this matter, other brokerages surely have their quirks too, which likely evens out in the end in terms of client turnover.


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