# Where to move in BC



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm interested in hearing recommendations for nice cities in BC to live. I know Vancouver and Kelowna quite well, and I like those cities a lot, but am interested in considering other destinations (maybe Victoria?). Currently I am leaning towards Vancouver & surrounding.

I'd want there to be a good outdoors culture for bicycling, walking, and nearby hiking. I'd like to either get errands done by walking or biking. I'd also like relatively easy access to Vancouver and YVR airport. I am concerned about the big west coast earthquake so I'd like to find an area that is not particularly vulnerable to the earthquake and tsunami.

For quality of life, safety is important, and having things to do (cafes, restaurants, other young people like me). Proximity to parks and recreation is really important. However, I'm not too concerned about the business climate or work availability.

Any thoughts?


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm not sure I would move to the Vancouver area if I wasn't already set up here. Housing is just ridiculous, and the climate is too wet. Southeast Vancouver Island is more affordable and has a nicer climate.

But if you're looking for a younger scene, Vancouver is pretty much where it's at. Victoria and Kelowna both nearly top the list of cities with the highest numbers of retirees.

I might consider somewhere like south Surrey. http://www.valleymom.ca/top-6-reason-young-families-love-living-south-surrey/


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Not to try and convince anyone but Kelowna area is changing quickly with younger in-migration from Lower Mainland in particular. A lot of tech startups and there is now more jobs in the tech industry than the wine industry. It bears doing some recent research. 

The main downside is that housing is not cheap due to population growth but is softening like elsewhere due tightened mortgage rules, rising interest rates, and with Kelowna and West Kelowna being subject to the new speculation rules just like the Lower Mainland.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Maybe I should have added that I will be renting a small apartment. Prices in Vancouver are doable for me and I would imagine that if I can afford renting in Vancouver, I can afford renting anywhere in BC -- so I think anywhere in BC is on the table (as a renter).


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

nathan79 said:


> I'm not sure I would move to the Vancouver area if I wasn't already set up here. Housing is just ridiculous, and the climate is too wet. Southeast Vancouver Island is more affordable and has a nicer climate.
> 
> But if you're looking for a younger scene, Vancouver is pretty much where it's at. Victoria and Kelowna both nearly top the list of cities with the highest numbers of retirees.
> 
> I might consider somewhere like south Surrey. http://www.valleymom.ca/top-6-reason-young-families-love-living-south-surrey/


Thanks! When you say Southeast Vancouver Island (nicer climate) does that mean Victoria, Duncan, etc?


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Any thoughts?


This depends, greatly, on your expectations and your income. I would not, and do not, recommend Vancouver to any young families or couples who expect to raise a family - unless you pulling down 150 +. My workplace cannot attract teachers to work in the city due to the cost of housing etc, and as a result, teachers need to either commute long distances, or leave and find work elsewhere - which in the case of teaching jobs has been easier the past year. the last 2 hires have been from the UK and South Africa! 
Richmond fits your description - but not the part about tsunami protection - (not sure about the result of this - Tofino and Pacific coast have born the brunt in the last mega-quake in 1700 - it got hit hard, but Georgia Strait not likely as much because the island would serve as a barrier to any tsunami). Beyond Richmond, you're looking at Delta, BC or maybe Burnaby - both good choices - but alot like say Milton or environs as an eastern analogue. Beyond your choice would be Squamish - very far from YVR tho - it is the magnet now for families and young blood new to the city - 

Think this thru. Vancouver looks great on a postcard, but living costs and housing...ugh!

Post script: Nanaimo is a nice community - quite central. ferry boat & transit ride from there gets you into downtown Vancouver in about 3 hrs. several friends I know have moved there.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Thanks! When you say Southeast Vancouver Island (nicer climate) does that mean Victoria, Duncan, etc?


Anywhere south of Nanaimo basically. Nanaimo itself is probably comparable to downtown Vancouver -- it's drier than the North Shore and the eastern suburbs of Vancouver, but much wetter than Victoria. Once you start going north of Nanaimo it begins to deteriorate.

Victoria is especially dry and mild as it is in the shadow of the Olympic peninsula and surrounded by the ocean. It recieves about half the rain of Vancouver, and only one third the rain of Vancouver's suburbs such as Burnaby and Coquitlam.

Southwestern portions of Greater Vancouver near the Canada-US border have a climate in between that of Vancouver and Victoria.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

If you really want to get off the beaten path - try Osoyoos. It like Arizona for 1/2 the year.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

dubmac said:


> If you really want to get off the beaten path - try Osoyoos. It like Arizona for 1/2 the year.


There is no employment there.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Well Victoria is sounding kind of nice. What's the down side of Victoria? Would it survive the earthquake?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Well Victoria is sounding kind of nice. What's the down side of Victoria? Would it survive the earthquake?


I imagine the entire island could, in theory, disappear given the right conditions. http://www.earthquakescanada.ca/pprs-pprp/pubs/GF-GI/GEOFACT_plate-tectonics_e.pdf The rupture zone isn't pretty http://www.seismescanada.rncan.gc.ca/pprs-pprp/pubs/GF-GI/GEOFACT_earthquakes-SW-BC_e.pdf

I think it is nuts to live on Vancouver Island given the risks. Getting off costs money every time and may be isolated in a number of ways after a major earthquake (think natural gas, electricity, ports, etc.). If that doesn't scare you, a bunch of Greenies and NDPers live there, including the likes of Weaver, Elizabeth May, etc. We visit occasionally and have friends there (Victoria, Saanich, Nanaimo, Qualicum Beach) but I wouldn't live there.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

I really like the Tri-Cities where I live- Port Moody, Coquitlam, Port Coquitlam. Very up-and-coming and PACKED with nature activities; one of the warmest and cleanest lakes in Canada is about a 35 minute bike ride from my place- it's warmer than any lake in the Okanagan except Tuc-El-Nuit. Endless hiking and biking opportunities and the North Shore is just over the Second Narrows bride for all the mountain activity one could want including the ski mountains. Vancouver is within an easy 30-minute drive or just hop the Skytrain or West Coast Express for work or night time activities or festivals. Port Moody in particular is extremely safe. I can also get out eastward super fast for destinations like the Okanagan, Fraser Valley, or to head up north as i'm right near Highway One and don't need to go through Vancouver and Burnaby- I just jump on the highway and shoot straight out. I can also be across the border in less than 40 minutes because I don't need to go all the way through Vancouver and Richmond to get to the Peace Arch crossing- there's one nearby with less traffic; one night I decided to go see a band in Bellingham and was at the venue in less than an hour.

I love the Okanagan the most, but yeah, earning a living can be tough depending what you do. If I can't eventually swing a retirement in the Mediterranean, it will be Penticton or Osoyoos. A lot of people love the Island but for younger people it's really only Victoria that has much to offer- and the ferries are ridiculously expensive now if you want to come to the mainland for any reason.

Just my 1/50 of a dollar.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Tough question James! I assume you are planning to work from home? Otherwise the question is moot.

I agree that the island is best avoided. Because you are renting, you can try multiple locations.
The Okanagan is up and coming and the prices are showing it. It is gray and cool in the winter.

The transit system in Vancouver is excellent and so living without a car is possible. Renting for weekend getaways makes it all the more desirable. OTOH White Rock is also in the rain shadow and offers reasonable access to everything but skiing but you need a car.

We have friends that have escaped from Vancouer to Qualicum Bay, Deep Cove (Sydney), Chilliwack, Vernon (Lake Okanagan) and Penticton. There is no clear winner.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

dubmac said:


> If you really want to get off the beaten path - try Osoyoos. It like Arizona for 1/2 the year.


I was born & raised just north of Osoyoos and we enjoy returning every year for the fresh fruit, fishing,sunshine,biking. Not a place for anyone that would consider living in Vancouver or Kelowna though.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

We lasted roughly 3 years in the Okanogan. Sure the scenery is great but there are a lot of limitations as well. A 5 hour drive over the mountains to Vancouver in winter is not something you want to be doing to get to YVR. So if you intend to travel much, you need to factor in the cost of flying from Kelowna or Penticton.

Again, the scenery is great and you might expect lots of outdoor activity easily available. It actually isn't. There is very limited hiking/biking trails for example. Even going for a 'backroads drive' day trip is extremely limited. When you have driven the same 10 back roads 10 times each, that's pretty much it, you've done it.

As for young people and a cafe society, you can forget that pretty much anywhere except in Vancouver. I like downtown Vancouver as a place to visit. But again, it is pretty small and limited so you might easily find yet again that after a while, it becomes the same old, same old, rinse and repeat. And then there is the rain.

Vancouverites love to say that they have the 'mildest climate in Canada' and that's true but what it actually means is that it never gets too hot or too cold generally speaking. What they don't say though is that it rains more often than not and if they do get 2 inches of snow, they cannot cope with it since they don't have the equipment to do so. You don't plan on the basis of something that happens 5% of the time, you plan based on the 95%, so they have few snowplows. 

Vancouver does seem to have some hiking clubs that are fairly active. Take a look here: http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/best-hiking-groups-vancouver/ If I were you, I would focus more on finding what you want to do with no preconceptions about the where. I would say Vancouver is your best bet given your criteria, the problem for me would be the rain. 

Rain is something you simply cannot do anything with. Vancouverites love to laugh at Toronto and snow, saying we don't have to put up with that etc. But take a look here at the preeminent hiking club in Toronto and their winter schedule. https://brucetrail.org/system/downloads/0000/1211/Toronto_BTC_-_Footnotes_-_Winter_2018-19.pdf If you scroll down to their January 5th (this Saturday) car hikes you will find 4 separate offerings you could join in to. Three are hikes and one is a first of the season ski and snowshoe outing. Snow is not a problem for enjoying the outdoors as you seem to want to do, but rain is always a problem.

Frankly, given your criteria, I would choose Toronto as your best fit. Oh and tsunamis and earthquakes, what are they?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eder said:


> I was born & raised just north of Osoyoos and we enjoy returning every year for the fresh fruit, fishing,sunshine,biking. Not a place for anyone that would consider living in Vancouver or Kelowna though.


We lived in Oliver for 3 years Eder. That was as long as we were happy to stay. As I noted above, just too limited in too many ways.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Keep in mind that sometimes your plans can take an unexpected detour based on employment or personal opportunities. We have lived in a number of cities in Canada from Montreal to Vancouver. After 20 years we thought we would retire in Vancouver but then we moved to Calgary. We still planned to go back. But after a time we decided to stay in Calgary for various reasons. Ontario was another option but despite having family there Ontario was just not a draw for us. 

Not certain what you business is but if you are dealing with other parts of Canada remember the time zones. In both Calgary and Vancouver much of my business/area of responsibility included EST zones. It was not unusual for me to start my day, on the phone at 6AM, sometimes earlier, when we lived in Vancouver. And I can assure you that those in Toronto or Boston never gave this a consideration when working an on line meeting.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Do you feel that you have given enough consideration to Nunavut? Iqaluit or maybe Baker Lake. lol.

They say those cities have more nightlife then Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver, but that could be related to the fact that they get about 23.5 hours of it everyday.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

We looked at Kelowna but was a bit hot in the summer and so busy. Mind you, we are now retired so wanted a slower pace and I wanted to golf and fish. It does rain here on the Island but unless it's heavy you can still do lots. I did golf on the 19th Dec but had to put the umbrella up for a couple of holes. Was a beautiful day on the 20th before we headed back to the praires to get a reminder of the snow shovelling and cold weather that I don't miss. My buddy sent me fishing pictures from Christmas day on his boat with his kids. Yes, earthquake risk is there but we were in a couple of scary forest fires a few years back. Not sure where in Canada an asteroid could hit either, or a tornado, so pick your spot for what you want and go with it. Happy New Year.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

What I take from j4b's initial post is that, in BC, Vancouver is about the only choice. It's expensive, but he knows that.

I was born there and served my time there in my years of full-time office work. Never much cared for it, but I was never a city boy at heart, despite having lived in some of the largest cities in the world. You do what ya' gotta' do. 

Vancouver, and just about any other urban area, suffers from increasing traffic gridlock. Starting to look like Bangkok and such places. Not much more in the way of roads and bridges there now than when I was born, but a lot more people and motor vehicles using that same network. And someone said Trudeau plans to have 100 million in Canada soon. That will make it even nicer. More bars, hangouts for young folks, I guess. The yellow smog hanging over the city when one flies in is a bit discouraging, although prevailing winds manage to ship a fair amount of that up the Fraser Valley.

In the end, we are not all the same. I would not return to live in any of the cities in which I have lived, except perhaps LA (and most here will see that comment as a sign that I should be committed under the Mental Health Act.) But I would not tell anyone that it's "nuts" to live anywhere. This thread is likely to end up looking like our "organized religion" thread, which I have studiously avoided. Why should anyone care about what I think of as a good place to live? Why should I give a hoot about their views? To each his own.

The whole climate thing - the west coast is too wet to support human life, etc. - is silly to debate. The climate here suits ME better than other, drier places I have lived in Canada. I don't need someone telling me it's too depressing, that I should hate it, etc. I would not trade it to live in Toronto again, or Kelowna (where I have spent a fair bit of time in all months of the year) or anyplace else. But that's just me. I would not tell anyone else they should like it. I can accept that some think the west coast is hell on earth. Okay by me.

While some probably don't care how much it rains where they live and what kind of temperatures go with it, I am rain tolerant, but I know my limit. For me, for example, Prince Rupert is out. But I like it there to visit and I know some who are happy there. When I was contemplating moving to where I am now, I decided that Vancouver rainfall and year-round average temperatures were just ducky. So I did a fair amount of research. I looked at weather/precipitation/temperature data over a period of years. I did not want to settle on a place much different from what I was used to in Vancouver. Campbell River has had a weather station at the airport for a long time. It's our closest city. Its airport is at a higher elevation than our oceanfront, and has a few different influences, but is a guide. I found long-term records from Cortes Island, an even better comparator. I looked at rainfall, snowfall and temperature records month-by-month for a period of years. Cortes Island and Vancouver differ little. More than a decade of living here have borne that out. Another indicator - arbutus trees. They cannot take a lot of water or cold. They don't do particularly well in Vancouver, very few there. We have them in abundance. Get a few miles north and they are gone. Different climate zone. 

As for a comment in this thread:



nathan79 said:


> Anywhere south of Nanaimo basically. Nanaimo itself is probably comparable to downtown Vancouver -- it's drier than the North Shore and the eastern suburbs of Vancouver, but much wetter than Victoria. Once you start going north of Nanaimo it begins to deteriorate.


I agree that Nanaimo and Vancouver are about the same. I have flown Nanaimo to Vancouver dozens of times and getting off the plane at one end or the other sees one stepping into the same weather one left in the other city 30 minutes ago. As for deteriorating going north, I would say it depends _where_ north of Nanaimo. Central and west Vancouver Island, yes, I agree. Much north of Campbell River, agreed again. Certainly Port Hardy requires one to be more hardy. The islands north of Quadra are colder and wetter. No arbutus in sight. I have friends who moved from Vancouver to the Queen Charlottes and love it. I considered the Charlottes and ruled them out due to climate and remoteness. It takes a long time to get anywhere off those islands. 

I often look at the following site for weather:

https://weather.gc.ca/city/pages/bc-74_metric_e.html

Looking at it today, the current weather and that forecast for the next 7 days reads about the same for Vancouver, Nanaimo and Campbell River. Kelowna does not look a whole lot cheerier. But then, no earthquake or tsunami in their forecast.

Getting back to j4b, for the criteria he has set out, I don't see much in BC outside of Vancouver and it just might suit him to a T. But then, the earthquake thing might be a deal breaker. AltaRed's linked items looked to me, at least on casual inspection, to show Vancouver as just about as vulnerable as anywhere on Vancouver Island.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

One thing we noticed is that retirement gets you out of the 10 hours under fluorescent lights and more aware of the ambient weather conditions. If you have the flexibility to live anywhere, why not? On the topic of rain shadow, Mayne Island is officially desert. So the kind of analysis that MP has done is valuable.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks, lots to think about here. I would be working from home (or use a shared office space). This may even be a temporary location for me, so it's not going to be a big commitment in any case -- but I'm open to anything.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Office Suites on Broadway is walking distance to the Skytrain. My buddy owned it until retiring last year. It enables you to have an even more modest apartment.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

kcowan said:


> Office Suites on Broadway is walking distance to the Skytrain. My buddy owned it until retiring last year. It enables you to have an even more modest apartment.


That sounds interesting, thanks. Is that like the Regus office space rentals?


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

Grew up in Vancouver and moved to Kelowna in 1983 at age 38. I know both cities well albeit Vancouver has changed lots since I left. For my (and my wifes) lifestyle we prefer Kelowna. Less traffic (although its getting worse), smaller population at 125,000, generally flat terrain around the business area for walking/biking, the lake, bikes lanes are good, Okanagan Rail trail for walking/biking (50 KMS), thousands of miles of forestry roads and growing, hiking trails galore (I have a friend who goes out twice a week with a hiking group and goes different places pretty well every time), biking and walking the Myra Canyon trestles (18 trestles 24 kms round trip), the Greenway walking/biking tgrail, great skiing, good spring/summer/fall weather with cooler winters and some valley fog (go skiing and get out of this!), fishing (over 50 mountain lakes in the area), unlimited mountain biking, plenty of golf courses, etc. For us its hands down for Kelowna but please don't tell too many others. 
Victoria could be ok but my wifes family is from the island and from out perspective the matter of the ferries make this a "no go". While we have travelled somewhat in the Kootenays and backpacked some of the rockies and enjoyed both we have really not spent enough time there to comment more. 
In summary, Vancouver is a also a no go for us due to its size (too big for us) and congestion, the island is a no go due to the ferries, anywhere north of Kamloops doesn't work for us due to the lack of amenities or cold weather. As others have mentioned there are lots of other very nice places in BC (gulf islands, Vancouver island, sunshine coast, Fraser valley, Kootenays, etc) and I am just giving you my perspective and what works for us.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Interesting comment by Mukhang pera about arbutus trees. Who knew? I had to look it up. I'd take the 'cannot take a lot of water' comment though as potentially misleading. According to the link I found, "Arbutus is found on sites that lack moisture, such as those with rocky or rapidly drained soils." No mention of a problem with rainfall.
https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/documents/treebook/arbutus.htm

It does raise the point though of looking to nature to tell us what to expect in an area we are not familiar with. As another example, who is aware that in Ontario there are a a couple of geographic regions referred to as a 'banana belt'? A geographic 'banana belt' is simply any part of a larger geographic area that enjoys warmer weather. There are other examples of banana belt areas in Canada. Saltspring Island in BC; the Niagara Region in Ontario as well as southwestern Ontario between Windsor and Chatham. Whitehorse in the Yukon is also a banana belt area by virtue of its warmer than average (for the Yukon) temperatures. 

Who knew that a part of Ontario is in line with the northern border of California? That puts it 2 whole states (Washington and Oregon) south of British Columbia! Prickly pear cactus grows naturally around Point Pelee, Ontario. It's the southernmost point in Canada. Most people including no doubt most Canadians think of Canada as all being north of the USA. In fact there are 27 US States of which at least part is north of the southernmost points in Canada. And 13 of them are entirely north of the southernmost point of Ontario. I've blew a few Americans minds a few times by telling them they live farther north than I do.
http://barelybad.com/north_of_canada_map.htm

Those familiar with the Okanagan will also know that it contains N. America's northernmost desert region. The same Sonora Desert that stretches all the way to Mexico. No questions about too much rain in that area obviously.
https://www.thestar.com/life/travel/2009/06/24/osoyoos_canadas_lone_desert.html

All this should tell us that we have far more choice in weather within Canada than many may think we have.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> ... As another example, who is aware that in Ontario there are a a couple of geographic regions referred to as a 'banana belt'?


People in or near the banana belts (at least for Ontario) use the term regularly. 
There's also the snow belt in SWO that those from further north or out east have questioned/found amusing.




Longtimeago said:


> ... Who knew that a part of Ontario is in line with the northern border of California?
> ... Most people including no doubt most Canadians think of Canada as all being north of the USA ...


I guess they missed the CBC reporter pointing similar out when interviewing Americans upset the Blue Jays were in the playoffs as "Toronto is too far north".





Longtimeago said:


> ... All this should tell us that we have far more choice in weather within Canada than many may think we have.


I have had both Vancouver and LA people wax poetically about how much they like being able to ski/snowboard then surf/swim in the same day.


Cheers


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> People in or near the banana belts (at least for Ontario) use the term regularly. There's also the snow belt in SWO that those from further north or out east have questioned/found amusing.


one day i had a sales meeting in london and headed out from sarnia at 7am. noticed some snow around brights grove. got to the office at 820 and no one else made it in.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

That SOME people are aware of something does not indicate that MOST people are aware of that same thing. The point was not that some people or all people are aware of things like the Banana Belt, it was that MOST people do not. Pointing out that SOME people are aware means exactly what?

I don't know why people sometimes want to seemingly point out an exception to something as if it means something. It is only if someone were to write, 'all people don't know' that there would be any point to doing that.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

I lived in Windsor, Ontario for a few years in the 70s. The locals liked to call it the "banana belt". Coming from Toronto, I found the winters somewhat milder with less snow. But banana trees were scarce.

LTA is right about Point Pelee and cactus. I have seen those same cactus growing on Teece Point, Pender Island, another very southerly part of Canada.

To anyone in the Point Pelee area in September, it's worth going to the national park there when the monarch butterflies are migrating, on their way to Mexico. The trip across Lake Ontario is said to be shortest at that point. I have heard that the number of butterflies has declined over the years, but if the numbers are even half of what they were in the 70s, it would still be quite a sight. The place was carpeted with them. Amazing that such seemingly delicate creatures are able to make that journey.

As a kid, we often drove from Toronto to Windsor to cross there into the US, via the bridge or the tunnel. Never saw much of Windsor itself. On making a first trip there to check out places to rent, I recall driving down the main drag of Ouellette Avenue and seeing a lot of skyscraper-type buildings ahead. My gf and I commented to the effect: "Wow, look at all those buildings! Windsor is more civilized than we thought." It was only as we neared the terminus of Ouellette at the Detroit River that we realized all those big buildings were in downtown Detroit. In those days, of not even being asked for ID to cross the border, it was routine to go for dinner in Detroit. Also routine to pick up a bottle of rum or whatever at the duty free on the return trip - $4 for a 40-pounder instead of $10 at the LCBO. Living in Windsor in those days was more like living in Detroit. All of the dining and night life was there, I studied there, we watched Detroit news on TV. Halloween (or at least the night before) was called "Devil's Night" and young folks acted accordingly.

So, James4b, don't rule out "good old Windsor" as a place to live. The woman who rented me her house told me that I might leave for awhile, but anyone who has lived there will always want to return to "good old Windsor". I have yet to move back, but it ain't over yet. And I'll bet housing is still cheaper than TO or Van. When I lived there, in South Walkerville, I used to walk by Paul Martin's mansion and think it would be nice to own. It can probably be had today for the price of a small condo in Vancouver's West End.


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## KelownaCondo (Oct 7, 2017)

Look at my name 

Love Kelowna.....Summers are amazing. Just find a friend with a boat. :satellite:

Kettle Valley and the new Rail trail.... amazing bike ride.

Sure beats the winters in Ontario.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I agree that Kelowna is pretty amazing. One of my best friends lives there and I visited several times.

Windsor isn't a bad idea either. I'm originally from the Niagara region in southern Ontario, and the weather was pretty mild there.

Honestly, there are so many great places in Canada to live.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

_That SOME people are aware of something does not indicate that MOST people are aware of that same thing,_ said the March Hare

but surely MOST people have heard of a Banana Belt, asked Alice anxiously

_The point was not that some people or all people are aware of things like the Banana Belt, it was that MOST people do not,_ said the March Hare

_Pointing out that SOME people are aware means exactly what?_ the March Hare added

Banana Belt can Mean whatever you want it to Mean, whispered the Dormouse

silence! roared the Mad Hatter, stuffing the Dormouse into the teapot

O my stars & whiskers the year is now 2019. This tea table is a zero abuse zone. Moderators will no longer tolerate trolls or any kind of verbal or physical abuse including teapot-stuffing, said the White Rabbit

Alice stood up & retrieved the Dormouse from the teapot. She offered him a tiny shortbread cookie in the shape of a star & tucked him, buttery crumbs & all, into the front pocket of her hoodie, which she was wearing zipped up on top of her seersucker pinafore

_I don't know why people sometimes want to seemingly point out an exception to something as if it means something. It is only if someone were to write, 'all people don't know' that there would be any point to doing that,_ continued the March Hare

why are you still going on about the Banana Belt? asked the Mad Hatter. Here, have this piece of banana bread. i baked it myself yesterday in an oven fuelled by canada's premium Ethical Oil from you-know-where, then i drove it over here today in my diesel fuelled truck, which also runs on Ethical Oil

let's face it, post-modern science knows that all fuel is evil, even prehistoric fire polluted the atmosphere, continued the Mad Hatter. We humans have stolen the planet from its original owners, who were the microbes & the one-celled creatures

_are they suing yet?_ asked the March Hare

they're too smart to bother with the legal system, said the Mad Hatter. Instead the microbes have become terrorists. They have perfected thousands of assault avenues so they can invade & conquer us

last month's e.coli invasion by the romaine lettuces was actually one of those microbe terrorist attacks, whispered the Dormouse

Off With Their One-Celled Heads! shouted the Red Queen

whereupon the entire tea table began throwing crustless cucumber sandwiches & thumbnail spinach micro quiches at each other. Alice herself couldn't resist hurling two or three large sugared strawberries smothered in whipped cream. One splatted onto the March Hare's forehead. Bright red strawberry juice began to drool down his face. A splotch of whipped cream oozed sedately down his nose


.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Thanks, lots to think about here.* I would be working from home *(or use a shared office space). This may even be a temporary location for me, so it's not going to be a big commitment in any case -- but I'm open to anything.


James, I'm a teensy bit concerned for your well-being, and please know I wouldn't even be writing this if I didn't care... But would you like to fill us in on how this career change might be coming to fruition? You've been talking for months, years, about being dissatisfied with your job, life in general, and wanting a big change, but you haven't really talked much about a reasonable alternative plan to make money that doesn't involve throwing your career away and becoming a low-cost, low income hermit as you enter middle age.... I hope that is not what's happening here...

I think the summary is as follows:
~35 year old man
Good technical career but underpaid compared to peer group
Some ~500k+ (but not much more) put away from 15 years of scrimping and saving
Very conservatives investment selections

It seems you spend a LOT of time on the internet, clearly reading a ton of political news, which appears to be leading you to conclude that you "just can't handle" living in the USA with the perceived political turmoil you are purposefully and constantly exposing yourself to. FURTHER, you have recently taken on drastically increased internet time and increased political drama by entrenching yourself into this forum as a moderator. I cannot see what benefit this has brought to your life, assuming they are paying you nothing or very little, other than to double down on this obsession...

I think you're addicted to the internet. With personal finance discussions and arguing about politics being your subject of interest. You claim that that your work life is hard and stressful, leading to desiring a career change, but clearly your home life is hard too because you spend some 20hrs+ per week working, arguing, and adding stressors to your life via this forum (and whatever other internet activities you're up to).

Sure, there are others on this forum that talk a lot too and are obsessed...but they are all old, retired or nearly, rich, with grown kids - You are a youngish man, with not enough money to retire, no immediate plan/ability to start a family, which it sounds like you might desire, but are struggling to find a quality girl to bring aboard. Starting to realize that life is hard and unfair. I can sympathize deeply.

I hope that before you walk away from your current career, you pause to think about where you would like your life to be in 10 years time, and how you might go about getting there. Is it an upper middle class man with a wife and kids, working hard for the future, and a happy, moderate, optimistic view of the world? Or is it middle class, alone, working not hard because "it's not worth it", with extreme and entrenched views of the world and growing resentment about how things aren't fair or haven't turned out like you'd hoped? What I've seen recently leads me to think you're at the beginning of starting down that second path...

I know you didn't ask for my advice, and I was hesitant to write this... but as you might have seen, I've recently decided to get married and start a family, and I'm trying to commit myself to bettering the future of this world for my kids, where I can. _You_ are clearly a very smart guy, with tons of potential and could be a great asset, leader, father, citizen, for the betterment of our people for decades to come. I hope maybe you'll think about what you've been up to the past 5 years, what you've been reading and writing on the internet so much, and ask whether it has brought the value/satisfaction to your life that you had hoped. Perhaps you'll consider dialing it back a bit, and refocusing on what your life priorities could be. We are all in this together.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mukhang pera said:


> I lived in Windsor, Ontario for a few years in the 70s. The locals liked to call it the "banana belt". Coming from Toronto, I found the winters somewhat milder with less snow. But banana trees were scarce.
> 
> LTA is right about Point Pelee and cactus. I have seen those same cactus growing on Teece Point, Pender Island, another very southerly part of Canada.
> 
> ...


Sadly, the Monarch butterfly needs help these days and the numbers seen around Point Pelee have declined. The good news is many people are now planting 'butterfly gardens' to help them. One of the more interesting problems for them is the decline in the amount of native milkweed along roadsides. This is the only plant they lay their eggs on. Roadsides on country roads used to be full of milkweed but now roadsides are often sprayed with weedkillers and so the amount of milkweed is much lower than it was. Garden centres in SW Ontario now sell native milkweed for people to put in their gardens and help the Monarch. 
https://monarchbutterflygarden.net/8-things-know-monarch-migration/

Windsor is not a place I would choose to live. While it has some redeeming qualities, it is just too 'industrial' a city for my liking. The border crossing is of course a whole different thing these days. Fortunately, there is little to want to cross for anyway these days as well.

Essex county on the other hand (in which Windsor is located) has some fine places to live along the shore of Lake Erie. From a real estate point of view, as recently as say 5 years ago, it had the lowest priced waterfront property in Ontario. https://www.homesforsaleinwindsor.com/4a_custpage_63346.html

In the last few years however moving out farther from Toronto has really started to impact prices in all the smaller towns in every direction. https://www.thestar.com/business/2018/08/10/toronto-home-search-moves-to-smaller-ontario-cities.html

In our small town about an hour east of Windsor, around 50% of all house buyers are from out of town these days. Many of them retirees from Toronto like my brother. He moved from a one bedroom, under 700 sq. ft. Toronto Harbourfront condo to a 1200 sq. ft., 2 bedroom (he's single) detached home here a few years ago. He could have bought 3 homes for the price he sold his condo for! So he didn't 'downsize' in retirement, he actually 'upsized' but he certainly 'down priced'. 

So the best time was in the last 5-10 years but there are still plenty of 'bargains' compared to Toronto or Vancouver prices. For someone still working but who can work from home as is becoming more and more common these days, moving out of the city can have a lot of advantages. So yeah, no one should rule out Windsor or anywhere else in SW Ontario.

As for Paul Martin's house, it was last sold in 2012 and is now open to the public on occasion although it is privately owned and lived in.
http://eyesonwindsor.com/event/low-martin-house-tours/
I couldn't find the sale price but this tells us it sold in 2008 for $460k before being resold to the present owner in 2012. There would have been little change in real estate values during the years of 06 to 12, so figure around $500k. You can compare that to a Vancouver West End condo if you like. http://www.windsorpubliclibrary.com/?page_id=41081


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> That SOME people are aware of something does not indicate that MOST people are aware of that same thing. The point was not that some people or all people are aware of things like the Banana Belt, it was that MOST people do not. Pointing out that SOME people are aware means exactly what?


Starting with "Who" suggested it was almost completely unknown. The point is that people in the area commonly use it so it is not the rare thing "Who" suggests, regardless of wherever the "most" line ends up.


The second bit about the CBC reporter is that the fact was broadcast of all of Canada then through the US so it should have reached some people.


Cheers


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

KelownaCondo said:


> Look at my name
> 
> Love Kelowna.....Summers are amazing. Just find a friend with a boat. :satellite:
> 
> ...


Here we go again with 'winters in Ontario' as if all of Ontario was just one big snow pile. I have lived in Oliver KelownaCondo and cannot compare it at all well to where we currently live in SW Ontario, for anything. Yes Kettle Valley and the Rail trail are great, tell me again how great they are after you have biked it for the 47th time. One of the major reasons why we left Oliver was because of the lack of choice in anything. The scenery is great obviously but there are only so many trails and so many back roads to drive and once you have done them all a dozen times each, that's it, it becomes 'same old, same old'. You cannot compare that to the far more numerous choices that Ontario can provide you.

To each his own is fine, you have your preference but don't try to suggest it 'beats' anywhere else for whatever reason. It's just a preference based on an individual's own personal interests. My wife does not like boats for example, where would that leave her as far as 'summers are amazing. Just find a friend with a boat'? She is far more interested in live theatre and access to great performances for example. Do you see Kelowna on this tour schedule. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/come-from-away-canadian-tour-1.4142210

'Just find a friend with a boat' is written as if that will provide everyone with an 'amazing summer'. It will not. Nor will everyone find a bike ride amazing. Nor will combining them 'sure beat winters in Ontario.' Don't assume that what 'floats your boat' is universal.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eclectic12 said:


> Starting with "Who" suggested it was almost completely unknown. The point is that people in the area commonly use it so it is not the rare thing "Who" suggests, regardless of wherever the "most" line ends up.
> 
> 
> The second bit about the CBC reporter is that the fact was broadcast of all of Canada then through the US so it should have reached some people.
> ...


Are you joking Eclectic12? If say 5% of all Canadians happen to be aware of the Banana Belt that exists along Lake Erie and 95% are not aware, then you think that the 5% should not qualify to be called 'rare' because they 'commonly' use the term amongst themselves?

You must have a strange way of defining what 'rare' means.


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## KelownaCondo (Oct 7, 2017)

Longtimeago said:


> Here we go again with 'winters in Ontario' as if all of Ontario was just one big snow pile. I have lived in Oliver KelownaCondo and cannot compare it at all well to where we currently live in SW Ontario, for anything. Yes Kettle Valley and the Rail trail are great, tell me again how great they are after you have biked it for the 47th time. One of the major reasons why we left Oliver was because of the lack of choice in anything. The scenery is great obviously but there are only so many trails and so many back roads to drive and once you have done them all a dozen times each, that's it, it becomes 'same old, same old'. You cannot compare that to the far more numerous choices that Ontario can provide you.
> 
> To each his own is fine, you have your preference but don't try to suggest it 'beats' anywhere else for whatever reason. It's just a preference based on an individual's own personal interests. My wife does not like boats for example, where would that leave her as far as 'summers are amazing. Just find a friend with a boat'? She is far more interested in live theatre and access to great performances for example. Do you see Kelowna on this tour schedule. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/come-from-away-canadian-tour-1.4142210
> 
> 'Just find a friend with a boat' is written as if that will provide everyone with an 'amazing summer'. It will not. Nor will everyone find a bike ride amazing. Nor will combining them 'sure beat winters in Ontario.' Don't assume that what 'floats your boat' is universal.


Everyone has thier own opinion....

When you're working on Hydro towers in Minus 35 with gusting winds... You know what i mean...**** weather


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

KelownaCondo said:


> Everyone has thier own opinion....


+1 These 'where to live' threads become pissing contests, just like politics and religion. I have lived in a number of places in Canada, and am where I am at today (Central Okanagan) because of my preferences, likes and dislikes. Wouldn't be anywhere else, but I have no need to justify to anyone else.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

peterk said:


> James, I'm a teensy bit concerned for your well-being, and please know I wouldn't even be writing this if I didn't care


Thanks, I appreciate your concern.



> But would you like to fill us in on how this career change might be coming to fruition?


Nope, sorry. I already post way too much information about myself here. But US politics are not my primary concern, and I haven't firmly decided anything about any kind of change. I'm just looking at my options, as any young professional must.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

AltaRed said:


> +1 These 'where to live' threads become pissing contests, just like politics and religion. I have lived in a number of places in Canada, and am where I am at today (Central Okanagan) because of my preferences, likes and dislikes. Wouldn't be anywhere else, but I have no need to justify to anyone else.


Agree. I don't think anyone really thinks everyone is going to like the same things they are. 
AR moved from Calgary to Kelowna. I moved from Kelowna to Calgary. I don't think either of us would move back unless we had to.
I have lived in a lot of places in Canada from remote farm/ reservation to Toronto and everything in between. You have to find something to enjoy.. For example, In Kapuskasing I curled for the 2 years I was there. Haven't done it since - thoroughly enjoyed it while there. 
Every place has things to enjoy and some things not so pleasant. You sometimes have to adapt and try new things - sometimes you surprise yourself.

Just to add a factoid to the " parts of Canada are way south of some of the USA'. If you live in Toronto you would have to drive about 7 1/2 hours north to hit the 49 th parallel, commonly known as the border. You would have to drive almost another 3 hours north to hit the level of Calgary.
I think there are a great many Canadians who don't realize how far south Toronto is to much of Western Canada.


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## KelownaCondo (Oct 7, 2017)

Everyone has a very good point. I lived in Ontario for 28 years.....Love the west coast now..So i moved. We are very fortunate to live in this country.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

twa2w said:


> I think there are a great many Canadians who don't realize how far south Toronto is to much of Western Canada.


Indeed. And millions of Americans. Always awed when I'd say Toronto (43 40) was south of Portland OR (45 31) Now if our British negotiators had done their job correctly, all land west of the Columbia River would have been Canada putting Portland just across the river from Canada and over half of WA state within Canadian borders.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> Indeed. And millions of Americans. Always awed when I'd say Toronto (43 40) was south of Portland OR (45 31) Now if our British negotiators had done their job correctly, all land west of the Columbia River would have been Canada putting Portland just across the river from Canada and over half of WA state within Canadian borders.


If only. I have also heard vocal support from WA/OR people about separating from the US and joining Canada. It's still on the table going forward... geographically and culturally these areas are very compatible with Canada.

There is a wikipedia page on a Cascadia movement. Not something I support, though.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Cascadia is also a vision borne of frustration due to neglect from eastern seats of power, that includes Alberta, Idaho and all/some of Montana. The suggested boundaries move to and fro depending on who is pissed off at who and why. Wishful thinking of course.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Sometimes. But keep in mind that parts of Canada have far more in common from an economic and climate perspective with our north/south neighbours than we do, in some instances, with our own east/west neighbours.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

twa2w said:


> Just to add a factoid to the " parts of Canada are way south of some of the USA'. If you live in Toronto you would have to drive about 7 1/2 hours north to hit the 49 th parallel, commonly known as the border. You would have to drive almost another 3 hours north to hit the level of Calgary.


One year we drove from Edmonton to Toronto because I had to attend a mandatory management training course in Toronto the first week of August. So we loaded up the travel trailer and began the 5 week journey. We returned via Denver. When we were in Salt Lake, I commented that we lived 1500 miles north. The shocked looks and assumptions that we had sled dogs was amusing. Until I mentioned Gretsky.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Are you joking Eclectic12? If say 5% of all Canadians happen to be aware of the Banana Belt that exists along Lake Erie and 95% are not aware, then you think that the 5% should not qualify to be called 'rare' because they 'commonly' use the term amongst themselves?
> 
> You must have a strange way of defining what 'rare' means.


What an interesting sword to fall on...



james4beach said:


> Thanks, I appreciate your concern.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, sorry. I already post way too much information about myself here. But US politics are not my primary concern, and I haven't firmly decided anything about any kind of change. I'm just looking at my options, as any young professional must.


That's fine I know you don't want to be doxxed, and have expressed great concerns with security and privacy from The Man over the years. I hope you can land on a career and life with meaning, from whatever decisions you come up with here. Perhaps one without 24/7 access to internet forums would be useful, unless you can get paid to type somewhere!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

KelownaCondo said:


> Everyone has thier own opinion....
> 
> When you're working on Hydro towers in Minus 35 with gusting winds... You know what i mean...**** weather


That's ridiculous. I never understand why some people think they can take a one of extreme example and then hang their hat on it as if it was common to all.

How about working on a hydro tower in the middle of a ponderosa pine forested area of the Okanagan, while a forest fire is jumping from tree to tree nearby. Is that better than the cold and winds? The reality is, that in NEITHER case is it likely that someone would be stupid enough to agree to go up the tower. Or maybe you need to take a look at the Hydro One employment agreement with the union and what it has to say about 'extreme weather conditions'.

Don't pick one extreme example and try to suggest that it proves one of anything is better than another. 

We all have preferences and I'm fine with you having yours. Just don't try to say that you can tell us why your choice is better and somewhere else is '****'. As I said, I lived in the Okanagan, I know Kelowna, it sucks, in MY opinion. Live with it.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I really do not understand the reason for the disagreements. Everyone has their own reasons for their preference of where to live in Canada. Family, climate, economic, perceptions, ect. All are different. We have no inclination to return to the west coast, and even less inclination to ever move back to Ontario or Quebec. Clearly our reasons are unique to our own circumstances and we would hardly expect others to share the same opinions for the same reasons.

There are lots of great places to live in Canada and they may well vary based upon one's demographics, finances, or occupation.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I've been around a bit...hard to beat the South Okanagan if living in Canada. Who ever said trails/back roads were in short supply has never looked. Endless.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Eder said:


> I've been around a bit...hard to beat the South Okanagan if living in Canada. Who ever said trails/back roads were in short supply has never looked. Endless.


I would agree that one never has to be in the same place twice for years if one does not want too, but to each his/her own.


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## KelownaCondo (Oct 7, 2017)

LOL Someone on this board clearly hates the Okanagan.....


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

KelownaCondo said:


> LOL Someone on this board clearly hates the Okanagan.....


It is a natural outcome of hard personal biases (opinion). The easiest way for a relatively new member to get a 'feel' for another member's personality is to look at the history of a member's posts. Then it is much easier to decide how seriously to consider that member's posts, or whether to read, and/or respond at all.


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## KelownaCondo (Oct 7, 2017)

AltaRed said:


> It is a natural outcome of hard personal biases (opinion). The easiest way for a relatively new member to get a 'feel' for another member's personality is to look at the history of a member's posts. Then it is much easier to decide how seriously to consider that member's posts, or whether to read, and/or respond at all.


Which part of Kelowna are you in? Did you see the new Hotel they want to construct?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I don't reside in the City of Kelowna itself but am aware of the various major developments underway and/or proposed in the Valley at large. As you know, there has been a construction boom here for a number of years and thus why the province is slapping both Kelowna and West Kelowna with the speculation tax as it is doing in the Lower Mainland. Like a number of other high growth places, even a short time span of 10 years can result in significant changes in any municipality. Whether all the new high rises either under construction or being planned are a good thing remains to be seen. Time will tell.

FWIW, I consider the Okanagan Rail Trail a significant accomplishment of vision that will be viewed as a legacy for generations to come, akin to, if not more important, than the scale of the KVR and Myra Canyon trestles.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Eclectic12 said:
> 
> 
> > Starting with "Who" suggested it was almost completely unknown. The point is that people in the area commonly use it so it is not the rare thing "Who" suggests, regardless of wherever the "most" line ends up ...
> ...


Nice numbers ... I still think they are low considering people move around the world, talk to other people etc. etc.
Either way, without something like a survey - it is speculation and opinion on both our parts.


Cheers


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eder said:


> I've been around a bit...hard to beat the South Okanagan if living in Canada. Who ever said trails/back roads were in short supply has never looked. Endless.


We all see things from our own perspective Eder. I have been a hiker and wilderness backpacker for most of my life. I think I have a pretty good idea of what is available in terms of trails all over Canada as well as in other countries. From my perspective, Canada is a great country for backpacking but not so much for hiking trails. And of course, the Okanagan has only what that one area has in terms of numbers of kilometres of marked trails and equally as important for a hiker, access and 'loops'.

The Kettle Valley Rail Trail boasts 650 kilometres of marked trail. That would be impressive anywhere but it is all an 'out and back' trail. That's not necessarily bad but it does mean the logistics of where you start and how you get back to your starting point become an issue and especially if you are a lone (or couple) hiker. The Bruce Trail in Ontario on the other hand is a similar 885 km. long distance trail and while the length difference is irrelevant, what is relevant for the lone hiker is all about access. 

In any given year, through membership in the Bruce Trail Club, any hiker can string together a series of day hikes on weekends that include transportation to a start point and a return from an end point. So you hike one way only and can if you wish end up hiking the entire trail from end to end without ever having to hike a 'return'. 
Have a look here: https://brucetrail.org/pages/end-to-ends

Can you link something similar for the Kettle Valley? I could not find anything in the 3 years I lived in the area. So when I say trails/back roads are in short supply, I am not really talking about distances or the existence of a trail, but more about access and the practicality of doing numerous day hikes without having to 'return' to the starting point by walking back. It's just not as easy to do in the Okanagan.

Now, let's move on beyond Canada and again think about we each see things from our own perspective and see Canada as great for backpacking (no problem if someone wanted to backpack the entire Kettle Valley in one go as I a sure some people do) but not so great for hiking in *comparison* to my experience in other places. I have spent a lot of time hiking and backpacking in many different parts of the world. None can compare to Switzerland in my experience.

Overall, I have visited that country to hike and backpack, dozens of times. I've walked right across the country from north to south and also from west to east, all on trails. In the last couple of years, my wife and I visited as an example one area twice for 10 days each time. On almost all of those 20 days, we hiked. In all of those hikes, we hiked only one trail twice. So let's say we did around 15 separate hikes in total (I didn't count them).

Picture a valley with hiking trails both low and high along the mountains to each side of the valley. Not unlike picturing the Okanagan valley to a degree. Only now, picture just a 11.9 kilometre stretch of valley. Pick Kelowana to Pentiction as a comparison although that is a 62 kilometre stretch of valley, but I won't quibble over the distance since as you will see it really doesn't matter.

Take a look here at the Panorama maps of the valley between Davos and Klosters. https://www.davos.ch/en/summer/mountains/interactive-map/ There is something like 700km of trails in total on the two sides of the valley in that 11.9 km stretch. Yes, 700 kilometres in a 12 km stretch of valley. Zoom in on the Panorama maps of the two sides of the valley and you will see the main trials marked. Yellow, low, pink higher, some black very high. The straight black lines are cable cars and funiculars.

Take a look at some of the hikes listed by time required, just below the panorama maps of both sides. What do you think, maybe a 100? I didn't count but it looks like around that many. And that is just if you choose those particular points to hike between, you can add on or subtract 'waypoints' if you like and still very easily find a hike to suit you and return you to the valley floor.

Now here is how you typically might do a day hike in this area. We stay in a small 3 star boutique hotel that is actually in a village outside of Davos itself. When you stay in a hotel in the area, they all give you a 'Guest Card'. This card allows you unlimited FREE use of the buses, trains, cable cars and funiculars in the area for the duration of your stay in the area. So we leave the hotel, get on the bus which stops literally in front of the hotel and head to a start point. We get off the bus, walk across the road perhaps to a cable car and ride it up a mountain. Then we hike from there to wherever we plan to go. We may only hike across and take another cable car or funicular down, we may hike up and across and then hike down, it's really just whatever you want to do. When we come back down to the valley bottom, we either hop on a bus or the train to return to our hotel.

That is what you call a good place for hikers Eder. We can sit in our hotel in the evening and choose any of hundreds of different hikes to do the next day, with no concern whatsoever as to how we are going to get to the start point or return from our end point. That's the world in which I say by comparison 'trails are in short supply' when it comes to the Okanagan in particular or even Canada in general. It's the ease of access that really matters, not how many kilometres of trails that might exist but can't be easily accessed. So I think I can stand by what I said.


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