# Advice Appreciated - Retirement - Am I there yet?



## Johnsnow.got2000 (Mar 31, 2019)

Hello all, I have stumbled in this forum and am amazed and grateful for a lot of mature and sincere advice. Appreciate your input onto my current situation as it may be a little unique. I am at a cross road and appreciate your collective wisdom so here it goes. Just a short warning this may be a long post and not a lot of friends where I am at to bounce off ideas.

- 48 y/o living in one of the prosperous cities in Asia, Canadian citizen and non resident of Canada. Left Canada more than a decade ago; married, sole bread winner, and have a young child
- Good job in Asia but will be facing restructuring (offered a different position but I opt to take a severance) in few months
- Think about options: possibly staying in Asia for good or return to Canada in 2-5 years (no decisions made)
- 3.15m net worth right now and after severance will likely be around 3.3-3.4m; Of the 3.15m, 75% invested; 25% in cash. Of 75% invested, 2/3 in equity/ETFs (in Canadian, U.S. Asia equities and ETFs), 1/3 in bond funds/ETFs; Of the total 3.15m, 60% in CAN$ and the rest is in several Asian (but stable) currencies.
- father pass away a few years back and mother is in another Asian country and am planning to spend more time with her (hence possibly stay in Asia and not returning)
- No real estate (only renting) nor liabilities. Currently in Asia the spend is 140K per annum. However, this is because of rent and other family obligations. If I return to Canada, the spend will come down to about 85K per annum (may be lower)

Quick questions:
If I do return, I am thinking about settling in something like London in Ontario. Budgeting about 450-550K for a 4 room house and 100K of car and renovation/ startup. 

*Do you think this is a reasonable budget, given the house prices seem to have skyrocketed since I left? *

I don't know how London or cities like London would look like. I use London as an example because of moderate facilities, university town and being "not too big and not too small".

My rough math suggested if I do return, after paying for the house, start up costs and other costs incurred in Asia, I would have about 2.3-2.4m. With this nest egg, do you think I can sufficiently generate income (and be able to pay taxes) for a live style of 85K per annum (excluding taxes) or about 94K including taxes. 

*What should I prepare in my pending state of restructured?* I figure I will backup some CYA emails; pay-stubs, performance reviews. Finishing up all my medical claims, expense reports; proof of employments, recommendation letter (if needed)

Regarding house in London - how is the market? Is it going flat or down or still going up?

Really appreciate your advice as it is hard to talk about this in where I am located and also I don't have a lot of friends to bounce off idea, especially in Asia.

One thing I am coming across now is that originally I was planning to retire when I accumulate about $4m when I will be about 52 or 53. However, this restructuring opportunity came now and have accelerated my time line by 4-5 years. Initially I was kind of in a wait and see approach. The company did value my North America "style" (ie doing things that make sense to our U.S. management) and my Asia experience (ie knowing how to run the teams and navigate the complexities in multiple jurisdictions in many different Asian countries), they offered me a wider geography role but no pay increase. However, I did have a separation agreement in place prior and if I take the restructuring deal, I get about 200K which is about. I am foregoing a job that pays about 400K+. This seems like a like (and it is), but I am also very tired of the corporate politics and I see this will continue to have more and more restructuring in the next 2 - 3 years given our company purchased by another PE firm. Balancing the payout, assets, my annual expenses, and how soul-sucking it feels over the last 2 years, I opt to take the payout deal. 

Now I am thinking "what am I going to do"? At 48, this is too early and the sudden acceleration is still catching a little off guard.

I am wondering for those who have taken a similar route, these are my questions:

1. Do you think my current net worth will work? Remember I don't have any real estate so I need to subtract that from my current NW. House pricing in Canada seems extremely out of this world since I left so I would like some insight, particularly those in the London Ontario area.
2. Someday I feel great about my decision and someday I feel doubts. How do you deal with it mentally? I could volunteer when the time comes but I am not there yet and I am also not hyped to find a new job. I don't want to slide into miserable start of retirement and turn into some sort of depression. Has anyone who has gone through a sudden accelerated time line of retirement can recount the initial experience? 

Your advice is highly appreciated!

-JS


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

I would take it one step at a time.
Right now you don't even know if or when you might return to Canada.
Simplistically, if you have $3MM invested it should be earning you at least a conservative 2% after inflation.
And you should be able to safely withdraw 3% a year.
That's $90k/yr which is sufficient to live on in Canada pretty comfortably. That might include rent or a mortgage. But then it sounds like you'll have closer to $3.3MM. So I don't see a problem.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Here we go again, 'how much is enough?'

I agree with OnlyMyOpinion, that you need to take it one step at a time.

First you need to decide if you are going to return to Canada or not. I realize that some of the answers to some of your questions will impact that decision, so you need some BASIC information to begin with to help in making that decision.

1. You have enough to retire in Canada and live a good lifestyle if you decide that is what you want to do. You don't need details, it's enough to know you won't starve or end up homeless.
2. Real estate prices in Southwestern Ontario are among the lowest in Ontario. I would not necessarily say live IN London unless there are some things about living in a city vs. a smaller town that you feel are a necessity for you. Living in a smaller town has benefits that can be as appealing as those of a larger town depending on the individual. If a smaller town would suit you, then real estate prices will be lower than you might expect. Take a look at the Realtor.ca website and check out houses using their map to see what you could buy. Start here: https://www.realtor.ca/map#ZoomLeve...0&Center=42.77830362637734,-81.15604150553239
Look anywhere from Windsor to London and you will find what $500k will buy you and be able to determine if that is adequate/too low or even higher than you would need for what you would be happy with. But I would say with some certainty that you will find a house you can afford without a great deal of difficulty given your financial position. I would not spend a lot of time on that, a quick look at the link should be enough to tell you that you don't have to be concerned about that.

The decision as to whether to retire or not and whether you will, " slide into miserable start of retirement and turn into some sort of depression", is an individual one. It always amazes me that some people seem to dread the idea of retiring and think 'what will I do with myself, will I be miserable', kind of thinking. I retired at 43 and have never had a day where I thought that way. Retirement to me is freedom to do as I wish every single day. Work is akin to slavery in my way of thinking and to be avoided as soon as possible.

Trying to figure out all the details of each and every part of this at one time simply muddies the water. Your first decision is do you stay in Asia or do you return to Canada. In that regard, all you need to know is that you do have enough to return to Canada and retire if you want to. Make your decision on whether you are going to return or not and AFTER that, decide what the next step is. There is no need to try and figure out both ways, 10 steps ahead now.


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## Johnsnow.got2000 (Mar 31, 2019)

Thank you for your comments, LTA and OMO. I agree it will need to be one step at a time but also understand I need some of the basic information to make that fundamental decision (which I think LTA has pointed out).

@OMO, thanks! Actually I would not have 3.3m as I don't have a house, so I would need to buy one, assuming 600K + 100K renovation (?) including furnishing (we don't plan to move anything material from Asia if we move back) +50K a car, this would be 2.5m. This would make 90K have about a 3.6% withdrawal rate. The longer I stay in Asia, the lower this 2.5m amount will be and the 90K will likely become a higher number where inflation may kicked in and my kid will be in older which will likely spend more. I think I may need to rethink the house + startup spend assumption

@LTA, thanks - I read your other posts about your own experience and philosophy about retirement, very insightful and thank you. I think it is also innate with our personality... some can live with all kinds of uncertainty and "a new day is a beautiful day" type of personality, but some are OCD planner (and I am probably more the later)... considered having years of corporate brainwash of meeting the budget and planning next year, it may be something I need to "detox" from years of megacorp lifestyle. My wife said I will need a few months to just get used to no email, no conference call, and get used to not being needed so I can think more clearly about the direction.

Right now just waiting to finalize the last day as I have offered a longer transition time should the company needs it. Thank you for your advice!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Well I can understand if someone is OCD Johnsnow.got2000 but just remember what the 'D' stands for. Disorder.

I prefer to avoid PBA (paralysis by analysis) and stick to KISS (keep it simple stupid). That means simply deciding which decision must be made first and ignoring everything else until after that decision has been made. Stay or move to Canada, decide.

Then there are the 'Two Rules for a Happy LIfe.'

1. Don't sweat the small stuff.
2. It's all small stuff.

What that is really saying is that unless something will actually physically result in your death, no decision you make is a 'life or death' decision that needs to be agonized over and analyzed ad infinitum. 

One theory says that you can make even the most 'important' decisions in your life by flipping a coin. It does not matter which way the coin lands according to the theory because in fact, as the coin is in the air and falling, you know which way you want it to land. You don't even have to look to see which way it landed, you just go with the way you wanted it to land. Of course, most people aren't willing to put that theory to the test. LOL

I used to do 'rock climbing'. As anyone who has done some climbing knows, there comes a nanosecond in time when you KNOW you are going to fall. If you are using proper climbing safety procedures, you KNOW on an intellectual level that you have nothing to fear, the rope will save you from dying. But nevertheless, that FEAR of dying which is the ultimate negative possibility will still exist. It overpowers if you will, your rational mind.

If in that nanosecond, someone were to say to you, 'make this decision and you will not fall', there is NO decision you could not make. It would be a 'life or death' choice in your irrational mind you see. So sometimes when I find myself getting stuck in analysis of a situation that requires a decision, I think about that and ask myself the question. 'Will it kill me?' The answer is rarely 'yes'. So I just 'go for it' and deal with what comes, WHEN and IF it comes. I know which way I want to go, I just need something to nudge me over the line into the decision.

When I retired at 43, there was a part of me that was saying to myself, 'are you crazy? You're going to give up a well paid job, live on less income and hope to be able to continue to do so for the rest of your life. What if you crash and burn?' Having concerns and fears etc. is simply being human. Believing that you will find a way to adapt and cope no matter what though is what separates some from the herd I believe.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Lots of stuff to digest here...but here's my take FWIW since I'm a few years younger than you....

1. Determining your "enough" number largely depends on what you'll spend in retirement / semi-retirement other. Once you get a good handle on that, I think you'll better define what you need.
2. Life is short. I'm personally learning the longer I work at something I don't enjoy - there are side effects. Meaning, far better to keep working/doing something you enjoy for longer than doing anything/work you don't enjoy at all.
3. Best make the best informed decision you can, and move on. Don't analyze something to death and learn to go with some of your gut instincts from time-to-time; it's often correct even if you don't logically think it is. Meaning, consider making decisions with your gut or heart and your head. Otherwise, as another commenter put it - you can easily suffer from paralysis by analysis.

Related to your facts....

>$3 M net worth - are you saying you'll have more than > 60% in invested assets? If so, are you also saying you can't live off close to $2 M invested because you're spending $140k per year? That seems like a lot of spending.

Re: if you do return.....seems reasonable for London, ON area depending upon what you buy and I would anticipate it will continue to go up roughly with inflation over time.

Re: the mental side of retirement. I could see that. Some folks seriously go through that. I've read about the 3Ds with retirement: drink, divorce and depression. Not necessarily in that order. Definitely take care of your mental wellness. 

Good luck - but you have a great decision to make!!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Actually, My Own Advisor, I would disagree with your statement, "Re: if you do return.....seems reasonable for London, ON area depending upon what you buy and I would anticipate it will continue to go up roughly with inflation over time."

While $5-600K will currently buy you a very nice house in Southwestern Ontario, prices have been rising dramatically. I live about an hour west of London in a small town and prices here have been going up dramatically in recent years.

I attribute this to two things. Toronto house prices and the Baby Boomers retiring. When you can sell in Toronto and for the same money, buy 2 or 3 homes out this way, that is attracting a lot of retirees to move out of the city and into our area of the country. So don't think that prices are only going to rise at the rate of inflation, that's not what has been happening.

In the past, a house in our small town could take up to 2 years to sell. Now they are selling in a week and are getting offers OVER the asking price. Take a look at these stats for Chatham-Kent county. I suspect other nearby counties are much the same.
http://creastats.crea.ca/chat/

When you can sell in Toronto for $1 mil and buy the equivalent house out this way for $400k, leaving $600K to bank/invest, that provides quite a big incentive to do so for a retiree and they are doing so in droves it appears.


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

Born and grew up in St. Thomas. Graduated from The University of Western Ontario.

The Zippers married in London in 1969, worked, raised a family, retired in 1997.

Bought last house 1983 for $100 000, currently worth $400 000.

About as nice a city as you would find anywhere.

Winters are cold and snowy. Summers tend to be hot and humid.

3 major first class hospitals. We are 5 minutes from the biggest.

2 hours to Toronto, Detroit or Niagara Falls. 1 hour to Pt. Huron Michigan.

Lake Erie beaches to the south, 40 minutes, Lake Huron 1 hour.

Surrounded by some of the best farmland in Canada.

1 $million of your $3million would put you in the upper echelon of London housing.

Cost of living is lower than Toronto region.

Major shopping centre for the whole of Southwestern Ontario.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Longtimeago said:


> Actually, My Own Advisor, I would disagree with your statement, "Re: if you do return.....seems reasonable for London, ON area depending upon what you buy and I would anticipate it will continue to go up roughly with inflation over time."
> 
> While $5-600K will currently buy you a very nice house in Southwestern Ontario, prices have been rising dramatically. I live about an hour west of London in a small town and prices here have been going up dramatically in recent years.
> 
> ...


Wow, London is selling that fast? I had no idea. Thanks for sharing the stats.

I know in Ottawa, where I live, prices are definitely going up and up. I hear folks are tired they cannot afford TO or Vancouver or Montreal island down the road - and are moving here - little supply, tons of demand. 

I know if I lived in TO, right now, and could sell for > $1 M, I would and be long gone. I can say that because I used to live and work there for 5 years, I know the city well.


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## Johnsnow.got2000 (Mar 31, 2019)

@LTA - you are right, the london house prices have been skyrocketed over the last 2 years. I was causally browsing the prices 2 years and on average 4 BR house was about 350-400K back then. Now it appears to be 500K-600K +. If I were someone in TO having a real estate for 1M+ and am not tied down to a job, I would sell settle in a small town. However, some are tied down to the social circle which I understand. Hence my planning goes (and the math / direction to retire and where to retire) back to various locations and house prices.

@MOA - Thank you for your comments. Let me clarify my math. Right now I may be able to get to a 3.4m total nest egg depending on the severance discussion. Let's say I do get to this amount. However, I do not own any real estate and no significant debt or liabilities. If I were take this 3.4m back to Canada for good, I will need to buy a house. This is where the house prices come in. If the house is 600K, and I need to furnish, move internationally, do renovation, buy a car, for all that at about 150K (I called this "start up cost"), the house and start up cost will "eat" into the capital of 3.4m. This would leave, after the house and startup cost totalling 750K, about 2.5m to generate income to live. 

Right now, in the Asian city I am living, I spend 140K. However, within this 140K, I am paying 30K for rent. In addition, I have some family obligation I am paying for about 20k (within this 140K). So, if I do come back to Canada and buy a house, I will no longer need to pay for rent and these obligations. This means the 140K I will reduce by 30K rent and 20K of these other cost. My living expenses will be 140-30-20K which is about 90K. I think where I am currently living in Asia is one of the highest COL place in the world, so I figure (and hope) without changing the life style, 85K for the current standard of living should work. However, this is after-tax expenses, so I figure I may need about 92-95K pre-tax income generated from the 2.5m, then pay tax, to give me that 85K spend per annum. This would be about 3.8% withdrawal rate (95K/2500K). 

The key assumptions would only work if 

1) will the house and start up cost be more expense than I thought, contributing to a lower "starting pot" of nest egg, given the direction of the house prices?
2) I am factoring about 7K to 10K of taxes. Is this realistic? Are there ways to minimize taxes when you are retired?
3) If I stay in Asia longer, and start to deplete this nest egg, by the time I do decide to come back to Canada, my nest egg may no longer be 3.4m, and if house prices continue to go, it will no longer be 2.5m ending pot to generate income. So the assumption is while I am in Asia, the 3.4m (full pot, because I am not buying a house yet), can generate enough return to support a 140K spend, while in Asia, such that the "pot" is not significantly depleted should I decide to return to Canada.

Where I am coming from is this: I am 48 y/o. There are ageism in getting a job in my location. If I need to get a job, I better try to do it before 50, otherwise it may be more difficult. However, I do feel I may be burnt out from the current work so I may need a short break before going at it again. Or, as some may also experienced, once you go into a retirement mode, you may not even want to go back to work *ever* again!

I think LTA do have a point about planning. My late father and I had a conversation before and I shared a little bit about my planning. He said you can never plan how things goes... and I shared my view that at least you should have a direction and template so you are not being pushed and pulled aimlessly in life. So far, planning works for me but there may be some wisdom in being present at the moment and experience what life have to offer.

@Zipper - thank you for your on the ground insight! I really appreciate it! No, I don't plan to have a $1M mansion! That sounds a bit excessive but I think NW side of London at 500K 4BR would be ideal. Although the house prices seems insane! Thank you for some of the background!

Thank you for all your comments!

-JS


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I don't know how you are comparing cost of living Johnsnow but you certainly cannot just say if I spend $90k now I will need to spend $90k in London. 

According to Numbeo for example:

Consumer Prices in London are 20.16% lower than in Singapore
Consumer Prices Including Rent in London are 36.82% lower than in Singapore
Rent Prices in London are 59.25% lower than in Singapore
Restaurant Prices in London are 18.23% higher than in Singapore
Groceries Prices in London are 14.15% lower than in Singapore
Local Purchasing Power in London is 21.63% higher than in Singapore

I just picked Singapore since you don't name your current city but you can compare for yourself. Here is another site to look at. https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/singapore/london-ontario? That site suggests London is 30% cheaper than Singapore, so what costs $90K in Singapore would only require closer to $60K in London. 

There are plenty of cost of living comparison sites online you can check. You certainly don't just say, 'I'm spending $90k, so I will need $90k there.'

Regarding your income therefore, even $2Mil earning 3% would get you $60k per annum without ever having to touch the capital and $3Mil would get you $90K which according to the comparison sites above, would be MORE than you need and would allow you to have a healthy excess each year to turn back into investments and continue to grow your capital. Then there is the question of why you would accept only a 3% return on your investments? Why would you not look for 5% or 10%? What would that then do to your numbers?

Like I said, you are trying to figure out too many things at the same time. You have more than enough money to retire in Canada. Decide if you are going to do so or not. Stop sweating the small stuff.

Talking about $600k for a house and $150k in related costs to me is simply ridiculous. Get on a plane with one suitcase and in one month after arrival you can buy and move into a house, furnish it and buy a car for $500k total with no problem if you want to. My wife and I moved from Europe to British Columbia with a suitcase each. On day 2 we owned a car and were driving it, plated and insured, brand new. On day 3, we moved into a furnished rental till we bought and moved. In month 3 we were in our new home which we had found and bought all the furnishings etc. for in the interim. 

I don't know obviously what you would consider an acceptable house but look at this one in Zipper's St. Thomas as an example only, of what $400k would buy you there.
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/...e-family-house-24-augusta-crescent-st-thomas?
If as you say, you don't want a mansion, then what makes you fixate on $5-600K for a house? What makes you fixate on being IN London? I would not buy in London, simply because I know I can get more bang for my buck by going a short distance outside of London. If you have a reason for wanting to live IN London, that's fine but if not, do not rule out looking for where you get best value for money elsewhere. Here is a nice little 3 bedroom in Kingsville, Ontario which is a very nice little town right on Lake Erie. This house is right on the water with it's own boat slip, all for $300K. Retire and buy a boat, go fishing every day, listen to Jimmy Buffet tapes and drink Margaritas. 
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/...ingle-family-house-565-edith-place-kingsville

Whatever kind of lifestyle you want to live is available and once again, you have enough money to get it.


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## Johnsnow.got2000 (Mar 31, 2019)

For some reason my reply post are not showing and I am replying again

@LTA, thank you for your comments.

With respect of cost of living (COL), thank you for pointing some of these sites. I have actually also visited these sites before posting and in general these sites indicated London will be 15-20% cheaper than where I am currently at in Asia. However, I am not sure if they are quite accurate. My wife did visit her family back in Canada and notice that while directionally the sites seem trending in the right way, but the magnitude is not.

While I think you are correct in that "you spend 90K now in a different part of the world but it does not mean you will spend 90K in London", this 90K that I have indicated has already included about a *net* reduction of 3-4%. I say net because while these sites have about 15-20% cheaper prices for London, I also surmise I will incur cost that I currently do not incur, like car ownership, property taxes, etc... so I assume on a net net basis, while I may save some money on COL, I will also incur cost that are more consistent to the Canadian life. The 90K+ also assumes taxes (as an expense) will be included and that may be the wild card depending on the composition of the income (and thus the tax treatment)

Regarding income vs net worth, I wanted to say thanks and appreciate the comments. I would of course would not be adverse to a 5-10% return on a 2.3-2.4m portfolio. My current assumption of about 3.6-3.8% is the withdrawal rate, not return on investment, if this clarifies. I would assume that the 3% or 4% I have modeled out as a return assumption is similar to the withdrawal rate, and this return is a real return after inflation (not nominal), so the nominal return will be closer to your number like 5%+. I am assuming I will be investing more like the CCP portfolio, although I will have some cash and some "play money" to buy individual stocks/equity.

I do think you are right that the decision tree should be one step at a time, and I am, in this phase, gathering as much information as possible on the alternatives to make that decision. For example, I am also thinking about staying in Asia. Do I need to stay in this country (my wife would love to continue due to our kid's school and education)? If I do stay here, assuming I will continue to work, but at a reduced salary and presumably less stressful, what is the reduced salary look like? May be I can join a tech startup and help younger management to make better decisions? More just gathering data when I have time (I am still employed waiting for the end date to hit).

I did bounce some idea with wife but wife likes London. When we talk about London before, we think it is great because of the following: 1) great health care and hospital... when we are old we will want a hospital which is closer; 2) great university for the kid; 3) also given it is a uni town, there will be kids coming and going in and out of the city so there is some vibrancy to it... we like it being not too big and not too small. 4) close enough to TO so we can visit friends and family.

The idea is great to either get a temp accommodation and live there first before you buy so you know the lay of the land first. I like the "value for money" piece and I don't mind staying indoor (not quite a outdoor kind of guy, more like a nerdy academic guy) but wife is more into different variety. However, should check out Kingsville. Thank you for the link! The house is so so but the deck and the water is definitely intriguing!

Anyways I always enjoy your reply, not only on this thread but on your other threads as you have given a lot of thoughts into your answers and are insightful. Thank you.

-JS


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The COL comparison sites do indeed simply provide a 'ballpark' number but they are reliable enough to be in the 'ballpark'. If you are seeing an average of 15-20% lower cost then I would accept that number, not arbitrarily decide you need to lower it. If you are going to incur costs like a car that you do not currently have, that has nothing to do with COL comparisons. That has to do with changing your lifestyle to something it currently is not. 

If you are going to do that, then you need to look at coming up with a fairly reliable number as to what a given lifestyle will cost you if you move and a COL calculator will not do that for you. You will have to put together specific criteria and cost each out. You also have to decide which comes first, income or cost. What I mean by that is, given a house you own outright, what will your annual living costs be based on? Matching income to your needs/wants or matching your WANTS to your income? 

Needs are basically fixed, wants are not. So for example, suppose I want to live in London but find that my annual property tax will be $5K. Or I can live within an hour of London and have the equivalent house but with only $2.5K in property tax (those are in fact realistic numbers). If I chose the first, then my income will have to be driven by that want. If I chose the second, then my income needs to be less and the want is not driving the bus. If I want to buy a car, how often and at what price? I currently drive a car that I bought new 13 years ago. The initial price was around $33K. My average annual maintenance cost since then has been under $1000 and insurance around $2k. If I chose to buy a new car every 3 years, clearly my total annual cost would increase considerably. But would my NEED for transportation be any better served? Or would my want be driving the decision? I have been debating buying a new car for the last 2 years but I keep asking myself 'do I really NEED a new car?' At some point, the answer will be 'yes, it's time to get a new car' but until I see an actual NEED for one, I don't let my wanting to drive a new car make my decisions for me.

Not being able to differentiate between needs and wants and including wants in an attempt to try and calculate the income needed, will ALWAYS result in an inflated number. If you own your home, you can eat steak regularly, join a golf club, drive a car you like and take your wife out to dinner once a month on an income of $50k net per year quite easily in Southwestern Ontario. In Toronto, that same lifestyle might cost you $70k per year. There is that much difference based on location. 

Regarding continuing to work but at a reduced salary and with less stress. I say poppycock. First, I would never work for less than I believe I am worth. Second, stress exists in any job regardless of how little it pays which just means to me that if you are going to have to put up with job related stress, you might as well get paid as much as you can for doing so.

I sometimes watch a UK TV program called Escape to the Country. You often see a couple from say London (UK) who want to 'escape' the hectic city life and their hectic careers to guy a property somewhere in an idyllic village/country setting and retire. Then they ruin the entire idea by saying they would like to run a small B&B business as part of that move. How they think running a B&B will be any less stressful than what they currently do just boggles my mind. Either you retire or you do not retire.

There is a saying you may be aware of which says, 'work expands to fill time available.' That saying applies to ANY kind of work anyone does. Next time you visit a McDonald's, watch the people working there. They are as busy and as stressed as any other job you might do. A lower paying job does not reduce stress, never has, never will. Work, any kind of work, causes stress. So I say, don't look to a reduced income job to reduce stress, it will not. Either you work or you do not work.

Regarding your wife and London. I have a wife and I understand the saying, 'happy wife, happy life', as well as anyone. Sometimes we just have to go with that. However, if your wife is open to logic, then I would offer the following.

Being in London will not get you better healthcare than being within an hour of London and depending on where in London you choose to live, the time it takes you to drive to the hospital to see a specialist may not be much less than it takes someone who lives outside of London. It's called traffic. Living closer to a hospital does not improve healthcare, it only improves (hopefully) drive time to get there. Our drive time to your family doctor is 5 minutes. Do you think it will be less for you in London?

If your wife were to ask my wife if she being a past healthcare professional for all of her working career, thinks living in London would get her better healthcare I can assure you my wife's answer would be absolutely not. It would get her the SAME healthcare.

Regarding the university. Is that a serious belief? What education your children chose to go on to is not something I would think you can possible know today. They may decide to pursue a course that means they need to go to a University in any part of Canada or even abroad. People who live in Toronto have kids too. Why don't they all go to the U of T? They go where first they can quality to get accepted and second, where the program they want to follow is offered. Living right next door to a University has nothing to do with whether someone will end up going to university there or not. Half the students at Western in London are probably from Toronto.

Re London being a University town, again I say poppycock. London has a population of around 380K. Western has an enrollment of 28K. That is hardly a large enough segment of the total population of London to be a major influence on much of anything. Guelph has a population of around 131K with the University of Guelph having the same 28K enrollment. If you want a town where the student enrollment has an impact on the town, then Guelph is far more likely to have that. London is 2 hours from Toronto, Guelph is an hour and a quarter. If you want to live closer to friends and family in Toronto, why not pick Guelph? So where is the advantage to London in either of those two points you made. Sometimes we look at something and then INVENT positive reasons. 

I like London and enjoy visiting there for various reasons but I can as easily think of reasons for not living there and without having to INVENT them. Too much traffic, higher house prices, come immediately to mind. 

Re Kingsville, obviously it was just an example. I actually would not buy that particular house as I see more negatives than positives but like you the deck and dock on the water does have an immediate appeal. Here is one I would buy. I know the location and the house (from outside) and would consider lowering my wants to meet my income better if I had to pay $200k more to own this house vs a $500k house. It is a period home and has real 'presence'. https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/...family-house-115-towanda-boulevard-erie-beach

On the other hand, nearby is this house for $550, which would allow having another $100k to invest and provide income. Not a bad compromise. https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/20108925/3-0-bedroom-single-family-18260-erie-shore-drive-erieau

Also just down the road, if I really had to and it would get me retired a year sooner, would I really be missing out on any of my real needs if I settled for this house at $250k.
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/...amily-house-18172-erie-shore-drive-erie-beach

You have enough money Johnsnow, you just need to decide.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

One more with a private dock, just for fun.
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/...y-house-11539-lagonda-way-rondeau-bay-estates

You can drive your boat directly to this local micro-brewery for lunch.
https://baysidebrewing.com/

Then just walk across the narrow width (5 minute walk) of the peninsula and take a siesta on the beach.
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1.....gws-wiz.......35i39j38j0i20i263.WI73cpTCYlc


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Johnsnow.got2000 said:
> 
> 
> > ... When we talk about London before, we think it is great because of the following: 1) great health care and hospital... when we are old we will want a hospital which is closer; 2) great university for the kid; 3) also given it is a uni town, there will be kids coming and going in and out of the city so there is some vibrancy to it... we like it being not too big and not too small. 4) close enough to TO so we can visit friends and family ..
> ...


My parents lived in London until health issues for my dad forced a move to Kingsville. Despite it being obvious to everyone else that dad needed more care than mom could provide in their apartment, the doctor waited until discharging dad from the hospital to say the same thing. Having already anticipated this was in the cards, my sister had taken mom around to the care facilities. There was a one year wait or longer where the Kingsville care facility asked what time they needed to the room ready.

My sister was unhappy with the care given by the Leamington Hospital, fifteen minutes away to the point of writing complaint letters to the CEO, after outlining the issues multiple times to the nurses/doctors. The care in the London hospital was much better but did have some issues.

Both my sister and mom have or had cancer. Routinely they had to go to London or Windsor to visit the specialist, treatment, tests or surgery. All of mom's trips required an ambulance.


Mom did love walking from the care facility down to the Lake Erie to see the water.


Cheers


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eclectic12 said:


> My parents lived in London until health issues for my dad forced a move to Kingsville. Despite it being obvious to everyone else that dad needed more care than mom could provide in their apartment, the doctor waited until discharging dad from the hospital to say the same thing. Having already anticipated this was in the cards, my sister had taken mom around to the care facilities. There was a one year wait or longer where the Kingsville care facility asked what time they needed to the room ready.
> 
> My sister was unhappy with the care given by the Leamington Hospital, fifteen minutes away to the point of writing complaint letters to the CEO, after outlining the issues multiple times to the nurses/doctors. The care in the London hospital was much better but did have some issues.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if you are trying to say staying in London would have been better or not Eclectic12. But in any case, one anecdotal story does not signify in any meaningful way. Here in Canada, we have some of the best healthcare in the world regardless of where we live, in a small town or a large city. That is undeniable. 

But trying to anticipate where would be ideal for a given individual to be, based on the unknown, simply makes no sense. Yet it is not uncommon for people to suggest as the OP has done, that living next to a hospital in London would be better than living in somewhere like Kingsville when they get older. What if the OP dies in his sleep at age 86, having never had to spend a night in a hospital in his life? Would it have been better to live in London then, or in Kingsville where he took a stroll by the lake on his unknown last day?

I think of when my wife and I moved from Europe to BC. For me a return to Canada, for her a new country. We did the same kind of 'where to live' thinking and also thought about 'what to buy'. We decided that since we love to travel, a good idea would be to buy a condo. We could just lock the door and go with far less to think about than if we bought a house. Makes sense right. We also thought about, if we buy a condo now, we will not have to move when we get to an age where the work required to maintain a house becomes too much for us and we then have to move into a condo or Seniors home of some kind. Yup, makes sense that way as well. So that's what we did.

Within 2 years, we had discovered the downsides to living in a condo. It might make sense in the future but it did not make sense for us at that time. We sold and bought a detached house with our own property. My wife spends countless hours in the garden. It keeps her active and happy. That is something a condo simply can't do and is just one example of the difference.

What I took from that MISTAKE was that you should do what is right for you NOW, not what MAY become right for you in the future. Change is constant in life and we should adapt to it when it OCCURS. But trying to adapt for the future in the NOW, makes no sense at all. It is however what a lot of people do (including us) when moving in retirement.

The OP is in his 40s and has given no indication of any major health issues, so for me, talking about being near a hospital in his old age, is simply meaningless. He could get hit and killed by a bus as they say, tomorrow. He won't need a hospital then. The question will be, was he living in a place that made him happy NOW, the day before it happened?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

I am confident my sister would answer a resounding "yes" that had staying in London been possible, it would have been better.
She was the one who had to deal with the steady stream of issues. She is well aware that mistakes can happen so for her to be that pissed meant a lot of problems, where a good number could have easily been avoided.

A few that I can recall were:
a) ignoring important info then when pointed out that this was a problem, the response was to claim there was no record to inform the staff
b) taking three days to get what was needed, after a duplicate of the documentation outlining the needs was shown
c) wondering why a type 2 diabetic's sugar count was all over the map while at the same time, giving water thickened with sugar
d) shuttling back and forth from the retirement home to the hospital and back again multiple times in the same day when the hospital discharge was questioned/fought as the specialised care required was known to not be available at the retirement home


I have forgotten the details of the problems my sister has had as well as the problem my brother-in-laws parents had.



My point was about our family experience with the London Ontario hospitals and the closest one to Kingsville, not the healthcare system in general. As three of the four people that had major problems *were older* where despite the demographics, basic supplies were not readily available, the OP can factor them in or ignore them as they don't expect to need similar services anytime soon - as they see fit.


Cheers


*PS*
My sister was in her late 40's when diagnosed with cancer. She also had no indication of major health issues ... until landing in the hospital and being diagnosed.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Johnsnow.got2000 said:


> - No real estate (only renting) nor liabilities. Currently in Asia the spend is 140K per annum. However, this is because of rent and other family obligations. If I return to Canada, the spend will come down to about 85K per annum (may be lower)
> 
> 
> If I do return, I am thinking about settling in something like London in Ontario. Budgeting about 450-550K for a 4 room house and 100K of car and renovation/ startup.
> ...


I think with a paid off house with no reno work needed, and a paid off car up front, and only one child, you'd have a difficult time spending more than 85k in a 2nd tier Canadian city like London On.


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## Johnsnow.got2000 (Mar 31, 2019)

Thank you Eclectic, this gives me some context and I appreciate the input. 

Hi LTA, I don't Eclectic is indicating you are not correct, I think s/he is more offering his/her experience and I appreciate the observations.

Hi Petrek - thank you for sharing them. That is the plan, paying off the house and car and live off the remainder of the nest egg if possible.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I don't have any problem with Eclectic12's example Johnsnow.got2000, only with it being just anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence that can be suggested as a 'general rule'. Usually when someone does present anecdotal evidence they are trying to suggest that it refutes a general rule and that simply isn't the case. So it is really irrelevant unless you want to discuss individual experiences which add nothing to your decision making in my opinion.

It would be equally anecdotal if I said someone moved to London and got run over by a bus and that was a reason to not move to London. Both example should be ignored by you as irrelevant.

The general rule here is that healthcare in Canada is pretty even anywhere, regardless of anecdotal evidence and that as it is pretty even, it should not be a major factor in your decision making as to location. The one general rule I would suggest does matter in that regard is how easy or not it will be to get a family doctor. That is in fact a problem right now in many places and is a real factor worth considering. https://www.google.com/search?q=ava...rome..69i57.6325j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Researching that rather than proximity to a major hospital is in my opinion more important to a new resident. It is that first access to the system that matters. If you have a family doctor, then once you access the system that way, everything flows from there with good quality care. Not having that access is what matters, not what happens after you gain access if you see what I mean.

We have a family doctor within a 5 minute drive of our home in a small town. If we were looking at moving, I would not be looking at hospitals to any great degree but we would definitely be checking on where there was a family doctor who was accepting new patients and how far we would have to travel for that.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

When it's five people in the same area reporting issues with four reporting pretty much carbon copy problems ... I'd recommend one does their own due diligence versus depending on the general rule - but that's me.

FWIW they all had GPs that didn't seem to be a factor in what they experienced from the hospital. In at least two cases, the GP agreed that the care was bad.


Cheers


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eclectic12 said:


> When it's five people in the same area reporting issues with four reporting pretty much carbon copy problems ... I'd recommend one does their own due diligence versus depending on the general rule - but that's me.
> 
> FWIW they all had GPs that didn't seem to be a factor in what they experienced from the hospital. In at least two cases, the GP agreed that the care was bad.
> 
> ...


Do you really have that much difficulty seeing beyond yourself Eclectic12? You are simply talking about your own anecdotal experiences, they do NOT negate a general rule in any way. The world does not necessarily revolve around you and your family.

Nor does advice to a 40 year old on moving revolve around your family's experiences with old age care in Kingsville. Does it affect a 40 year old living in Kingsville? So where is the relevance of suggesting to the OP that Kingsville might not be a good choice for him because you found elder care inadequate there?

What matters to the OP and what you should be addressing in your comments to him are what will be important to HIM, not YOUR family. Now what reasons do you have to suggest to him that Kingsville (bearing in mind it is simply an example) would not be a good choice for HIM?


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

You seem to have tunnel vision as far as Kingsville vs London.

I think the OP's wife prefers London.

I've listed several reasons why London would be suitable.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> ... *What matters to the OP* and what you should be addressing in your comments to him are what will be important to HIM, not YOUR family. Now what reasons do you have to suggest to him that Kingsville (bearing in mind it is simply an example) would not be a good choice for HIM?


Healthcare or lack thereof ... but wait - it was the OP's wife so it's clear it won't matter to the OP, right? :rolleyes2:

You seem to have tunnel vision that I am trying to prove or not prove a general case. Kingsville was suggested, my family/extended family has had problems with health care. The OP seems to have understood that this was more info for him to use in his evaluation. 

The OP can ignore it, investigate it, think about it or whatever makes sense.


Now that I have stated what my purpose was and confirmed what it is not .... there's no need for further comment.


Cheers


*PS*
Or to distill it down ... Cavaet Emptor.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Zipper said:


> You seem to have tunnel vision as far as Kingsville vs London.
> 
> I think the OP's wife prefers London.
> 
> I've listed several reasons why London would be suitable.


Kingsville was just an example Zipper, nothing else. It is tunnel vision I am trying to suggest avoiding. Kingsville OR London or anywhere else. Anyone can list reasons why anywhere is suitable depending on their OWN point of view. I for one would not live in London as I have said, even though I happen to like London. There are simply far more places nearby where you get better value for your house buying dollar.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eclectic12 said:


> Healthcare or lack thereof ... but wait - it was the OP's wife so it's clear it won't matter to the OP, right? :rolleyes2:
> 
> You seem to have tunnel vision that I am trying to prove or not prove a general case. Kingsville was suggested, my family/extended family has had problems with health care. The OP seems to have understood that this was more info for him to use in his evaluation.
> 
> ...


Yes, you're right Eclectic12, there is no need for you to comment further.

The OP's wife is under the impression that living in London would provide better healthcare than might be found elsewhere. I have disputed that as the healthcare throughout Canada is pretty even. Your individual experience with Kingsville is an outlier, not a general rule or norm.

I live an hour or so from London and when needed and if no closer specialist is available, that is where we would go. We do not have to live in London to have that access when and if it is needed. We do want to have access to a more local GP however and we have that within a 5 minute drive.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Wow, I'm thinking John may decide to stay in Asia where there are fewer 'debating' Canadians around  

Way back at post #12, OP indicated his wife favoured: 1) great health care and hospital... when we are old *we will want a hospital which is closer*

Without knowing what 'closer' means, perhaps we should speculate for a few dozen posts about whether a 1 hour drive would meet his wife's definition of 'close enough', in summer, in winter, when we're 55, when we're 85, when we have to visit every day for a month, etc...

To kick it off, I would suggest that if I were looking for a place to live to take me long into retirement, I might value 'closer' for several things such as shopping, medical, recreation, etc. 

Of course whether to value that at the tender age of ~50 or whether to weigh other things as more important (like house price) until I'm older and then re-examine where to live, is a different question. So I think it should warrant a few dozen posts of it's own.


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## Johnsnow.got2000 (Mar 31, 2019)

Thank you all for your views and opinions. Wow, I was not anticipating the spirited discussion about the location of settling down. I appreciate the added experience and anecdotal views because it is also added more input for me to evaluate. I do understand one person's view may not be generalized, however, it allows me to see possible pitfalls, just more data as part of the thought process.

Yes - wife likes London but it was I who proposed this city because we only know of Ontario (and frankly I don't know many beautiful but smaller towns around southern Ontario) and when she listed out things she likes when/if we ever decide to move back to Canada, I researched and narrowed down London. That was a few years back when London house price what still reasonable. Since then I dare to say the price has arisen in some cases over 30% to 40% in the north west part of the city so I was quite caught off guard. She does not drive and we envision our daily routine (in the summer at least) may be walking or biking to a mall or library or gym. We don't plan to drive a lot unless we are visiting friends in Toronto. So short drive to hospital (if needed) or malls would be ideal. We like a city that has a University because we may also decide to take courses or study subjects of our interest should be get bored.

Like LTA say, retirement is about freedom. I graduated from a Science degree and later turned to management because back then it allowed me to get a decent job which led to my current career. I have an interest in psychology and history so retirement may allow me to go back to take uni courses (without exams) and learn subject I enjoy. Hence, short drive to all these places would be ideal.

Right now in Asia, I don't drive. I was driving Canada for almost 20 years before going to Asia. I thought I will never get used to NOT driving. But the public transportation in this city is well organized and now after a decade I got used to NOT driving so I would love to be able to minimize driving as well (which I know it can not be avoid in Canada, especially in winter, but this is more a lifestyle choice, where possible).

Thanks!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Wow, I'm thinking John may decide to stay in Asia where there are fewer 'debating' Canadians around
> 
> Way back at post #12, OP indicated his wife favoured: 1) great health care and hospital... when we are old *we will want a hospital which is closer*
> 
> ...


I can't recall if I outlined it on this thread and don't want to spend the time going back to read scan for it OnlyMyOpinion but I am of the belief based on past experience, that you should make a decision as to where to live, based on what suits you NOW, not in the future. I think I did give the example here of having bought a condo with the thought that it would save having to move to a condo when we got older and were no longer able to handle all the maintenance etc. of a house ourselves. That decision led to our realizing that living in a condo at that point in time was not what we wanted. My wife wanted a garden to spend time in for one thing.

So I strongly suggest to anyone that making a decision today based on a criteria that does not exist today is not a good idea. We may well have to move to a condo or some kind of senior assisted living etc. in the future but until we NEED to do that, we will continue to live in our detached home and enjoy what that gives us today. Worry about tomorrow, tomorrow.

I agree it is a subject that warrants a thread of its own. Why don't you start one, I will look forward to contributing to it.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Johnsnow.got2000 said:


> ... Right now in Asia, I don't drive. I was driving Canada for almost 20 years before going to Asia. I thought I will never get used to NOT driving. But the public transportation in this city is well organized and now after a decade I got used to NOT driving so I would love to be able to minimize driving as well (which I know it can not be avoid in Canada, especially in winter, but this is more a lifestyle choice, where possible).


The need for driving is another YMMV situation ... I know of several people who don't drive, regardless of the season in Canada and in one case, despite family living 500+ Km away from them.

If you do plan to drive again in Canada - did you save any of your past driving history?
Starting from scratch with no documented driving history has become expensive from a car insurance point of view, as I understand it.


Cheers


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