# Americans vacationing in Canada without quarantining



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Some disturbing news out of Banff, Alberta.








The Canada-U.S. border is closed, but Americans are still coming through. Here's how.


While much of the tourist traffic in Canada's mountain parks has dropped off due to the COVID-19 pandemic, some Albertans visiting Banff have noticed some of our southern neighbours in the area.



calgary.ctvnews.ca





Such a reason probably won't get them across the Border into other provinces but this could be a problem for BC and Alberta obviously.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Maybe the CBSA officers should "think" about getting clarification from their superiors from Ottawa on this "loophole" other than checking off a list off (on top of their head) regarding US visitors. All it takes to infect others is just one undetected infected person ... maybe prayers might work better here.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Some disturbing news out of Banff, Alberta.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Our phase 3, set to start on June 21st, will allow western province people to enter manitoba without the 14 day quarantine.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I don't have any problem with inter-provincial travel, and in fact I am currently travelling between two western provinces myself.

But I am very concerned about people entering Canada from the US.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Caution is being thrown to the wind. Everything will open up and we will see what happens.

Hopefully the virus will be contained, but that has proven an illusive effort so far.

Seniors and those at risk should stay home, but Ontario is opening up LTC and retirement homes, so even that precaution is being undermined here.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I almost wonder if people like this use a loophole because it exists. Would they have come to Canada if the border wasn't closed?

I feel like we should be getting such transiting people to sign a declaration at the border and if they are found to be breaching the conditions of entry, they should be fined and expelled. Can't Americans just fly to Alaska?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

There is a USA tv show called, 'What would you do'. They set up situations and video what people do in the given set of circumstances. So for example they might set up a situation in a restaurant where one 'customer' apparently starts an argument, insults, etc. with another 'customer'. The point is to see if people will 'step up' and 'do the right thing' or whether they will just do nothing when they see something that is obviously wrong happening.

So my question is, when the server heard the answer to 'where are you from' was Texas, why did that server not DO SOMETHING about it, like phone the police or CBSA.

Instead she posted on Facebook and eventually that led to CTV Calgary picking up on it and running the story. I don't want a story on CTV, I want to see people reporting to the appropriate authorities when they discover someone risking our health.

Why did the CTV not run a story on the inappropriate behaviour of the server once it was known the customers were from Texas and flaunting our quarantine. Why did the CTV story not encourage all citizens to do their duty in such a situation.

Think about it, why did the server not call the police and why did CTV not call out the server.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> There is a USA tv show called, 'What would you do'. They set up situations and video what people do in the given set of circumstances. So for example they might set up a situation in a restaurant where one 'customer' apparently starts an argument, insults, etc. with another 'customer'. The point is to see if people will 'step up' and 'do the right thing' or whether they will just do nothing when they see something that is obviously wrong happening.
> 
> So my question is, when the server heard the answer to 'where are you from' was Texas, why did that server not DO SOMETHING about it, like phone the police or CBSA.


 ... why don't you ask yourself that question "if I was the server, would I called the CBSA or the police? I bet the answer would have been an astounding "no" ... likely with a thousand narratives of your own of why not.



> Instead she posted on Facebook and eventually that led to CTV Calgary picking up on it and running the story. I don't want a story on CTV, I want to see people reporting to the appropriate authorities when they discover someone risking our health.


 .. who cares what you want ... like her to do the CBSA's job. Even her boss didn't expect her to do a reporting. I think she did the right thing and thank goodness CTV picked it up and reported it ... so you and I plus millions of other "Canadians" are aware of it ... including those heads at Ottawa.



> Why did the CTV not run a story on the inappropriate behaviour of the server once it was known the customers were from Texas and flaunting our quarantine. Why did the CTV story not encourage all citizens to do their duty in such a situation.


 ... what inappropriate behaviour of the server. Are you deeming her of not reporting directly to CBSA (aka doing their jobs) as "inappropriate"? I think even she reported it to her local police, they probably would have shoved it under a "non-story" category.

I'm guessing either you didn't have the opportunity to the outcome of reporting minor nuisance (not uncriminal) such as graffiti which is technically vandalism and wait for the police's action on it ... zzzz ... or that you're not up to date with what your local police dep't's functions really are.



> Think about it, why did the server not call the police and why did CTV not call out the server.


 ... simply because the server didn't have a duty to or even obligated to to post it even on FB let alone call CBSA. By posting on her FB page, she's already running a risk of ... well potential unstable yankee visitors' mentality of MYOB.

Bottomline: Now this "loophole" is out, don't you think the "appropriate" question should be "what is CBSA gonna to do about it? Take a guess. And stop pestering the local Calgarian police dep't with an issue that's outside their depth.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I agree that it was not the servers duty to report. If everyone feels empowered to report on anyone else, what kind of nation are we creating. I think the server already went well-beyond her responsibilities by posting on FB.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Some citizens do realize their responsibilities and act accordingly.









B.C. campground owners told to 'babysit' American travellers during quarantine


The owners of a private campground in Golden B.C. say they've been told by authorities to keep watch over some American visitors who set up camp there this week after crossing into Alberta.



calgary.ctvnews.ca





There are laws both federal and provincial which apply to not reporting a crime you become aware of.








Is it a Crime Not to Report a Crime in Canada? - Toronto Defence Lawyers


Under section 22 of the Criminal Code of Canada, if an individual has an awareness of a crime because they have witnessed the crime or have been told that the crime has occurred, and by not reporting this crime to the police service or other relevant agency, this individual is in some way aiding...




www.torontodefencelawyers.com




.

So yes, it IS the responsibility of any Canadian to report a crime if they become aware of there being one committed. It is not a question of being 'empowered' to report on someone, it is a question of doing the responsible thing and reporting a crime.

If you see someone breaking into your neighbour's house do you do nothing or do you report a crime in progress? 

The bigger issue here though is how many more people are going to say they are 'transitting to Alaska' and then as in the Banff example, openly admit they are 'taking a vacation' and knowingly flouting our quarantine. The people in Golden returning home to Alaska, were at best adding 8 hours onto their trip 'going home' vs. the usual route. 

With summer beginning, are there going to be more American tourists using this loophole to vacation in the Canadian Rockies?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Yes, we need snitch lines for everything.
Call the secret police to come and snatch violators into quarantine.

FFS, I think that the quarantine, and COVID steps are appropriate, but this is really turning into a test run into a police state.
Of course, once you restrict people from meeting with each other, make sure you track every person they ever meet with a contact tracing app. 
Make sure you control the media and block any "harmful" messages.

I predict next a strong government push against encryption and any hard to block or censor communication.
This includes anonymous cryptocurrencies, end to end encrypted communication, and privacy technology as encrypted, DNS (ie DNS over TLS, DNS over HTTPS).

Of course it's for our own good.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> ..
> 
> There are laws both federal and provincial which apply to not reporting a crime you become aware of.
> 
> ...


 ... and so you reported it to the Police, such as the example I've given (graffiti= vandlism) and what do you think the Police did? Nothing! In fact, I witnessed the act being done "in front" (aka live) of the police themselves. Guess what the police did? Nothing! Yawn! 

Mind you this US visitors' loophole is not an emergency, like a burglary, arson, hit & run, or murder so the reporting of the so-called perceived "crime" is pointless. Unless you got nothing else to do.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> Yes, we need snitch lines for everything.
> Call the secret police to come and snatch violators into quarantine.
> 
> FFS, I think that the quarantine, and COVID steps are appropriate, but this is really turning into a test run into a police state.
> ...


Instead of posting extreme views MrMatt, why don't you just address the ISSUE at hand? What would you deem it appropriate to do if YOU became aware that some Americans were obviously ignoring our quarantine requirement and just going around your town as they pleased?

Are we to presume that YOU would do nothing? Yes or no?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Beaver101 said:


> ... and so you reported it to the Police, such as the example I've given (graffiti= vandlism) and what do you think the Police did? Nothing! In fact, I witnessed the act being done "in front" (aka live) of the police themselves. Guess what the police did? Nothing! Yawn!
> 
> Mind you this US visitors' loophole is not an emergency, like a burglary, arson, hit & run, or murder so the reporting of the so-called perceived "crime" is pointless. Unless you got nothing else to do.


The same question for you as for MrMatt. What would YOU do if you became aware of a situation such as the OP describes Beaver101? Again are we to presume YOU would do nothing? Yes or no?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I am concerned with these illegal crossings especially from high spread areas. In the US certain states are being very strict about enforcement. There have been multitalented cases where some one has broken the quarantine rules by travelling with out isolating, working with symptoms, sneaking into a state where they shouldn’t be. The police have been called, and the people fined or detained. I don’t see anything wrong with this at all. 

If I was in Banff and met up with the Americans I would be calling RCMP. The reason we are ale to open some things up is because it’s been relatively well controlled. This isn’t over yet. Right now the groups increasing infection is the 20-35 year olds. They don’t have symptoms and may be the super spreaders. 

Can people stop being so selfish? I also wear mask to protect others, but I hope they do the same for me. Any one who doesn’t wear a mask is just selfish (unless they have a medical reason).


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> I am concerned with these illegal crossings especially from high spread areas. In the US certain states are being very strict about enforcement. There have been multitalented cases where some one has broken the quarantine rules by travelling with out isolating, working with symptoms, sneaking into a state where they shouldn’t be. The police have been called, and the people fined or detained. I don’t see anything wrong with this at all.
> 
> If I was in Banff and met up with the Americans I would be calling RCMP. The reason we are ale to open some things up is because it’s been relatively well controlled. This isn’t over yet. Right now the groups increasing infection is the 20-35 year olds. They don’t have symptoms and may be the super spreaders.
> 
> Can people stop being so selfish? I also wear mask to protect others, but I hope they do the same for me. Any one who doesn’t wear a mask is just selfish (unless they have a medical reason).


Glad to hear you would 'do the right thing' Plugging Along, rather than start spouting off about becoming a police state and a population of 'snitches' as some here think it is smart to do.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> The same question for you as for MrMatt. What would YOU do if you became aware of a situation such as the OP describes Beaver101? Again are we to presume YOU would do nothing? Yes or no?


 ... how about YOU ANSWERING the question first since I asked first in post #8 ... and made a prediction.

The answer (mine's) has already been provided ... the lady-server did the right thing with posting/reporting on FB first rather than directly to CBSA/local police dep't. That you don't seem to get or adamantly deeming or flacking her or what she did was "inappropriate".

Repeating my question, if YOU WERE in her shoes, would you have reported it directly to CBSA or the police dep't? Yes or No?

And please do not deflect from the question with PA - her is a different issue which is the use of a mask ...


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Beaver101 said:


> ... how about YOU ANSWERING the question first since I asked first in post #8 ... and made a prediction.
> 
> The answer (mine's) has already been provided ... the lady-server did the right thing with posting/reporting on FB first rather than directly to CBSA/local police dep't. That you don't seem to get or adamantly deeming or flacking her or what she did was "inappropriate".
> 
> ...


I would have called the police Beaver101, I think that was clearly the position I expected any responsible citizen to take. Why you would think as you 'predicted' in post #8 that I would not call is mystifying to me. If I am writing that it would be the responsible thing to do then obviously I would do so. If I did not, then I would be being irresponsible. So you were trying to suggest that while saying 'act responsibly' that I would personally act irresponsibly? 

That you apparently would not, speaks only for you.

Plugging Along specifically addressed the issue with an affirmative response of 'I would be calling the RCMP'. I am not deflecting anything.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Yes, we need snitch lines for everything.
> Call the secret police to come and snatch violators into quarantine.
> 
> FFS, I think that the quarantine, and COVID steps are appropriate, but this is really turning into a test run into a police state.
> ...


I think Americans are not part of 'us'. They don't give Canadians any special consideration. I have no problem fining and booting them out of the country if they violate the conditions of entry to Canada.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> I would have called the police Beaver101, I think that was clearly the position I expected any responsible citizen to take. Why you would think as you 'predicted' in post #8 that I would not call is mystifying to me. If I am writing that it would be the responsible thing to do then obviously I would do so. If I did not, then I would be being irresponsible. So you were trying to suggest that while saying 'act responsibly' that I would personally act irresponsibly?
> 
> That you apparently would not, speaks only for you.


 ... your assumption is that everyone else other than yourself would act irresponsibly. 

Did it not occur to you that "your act holy of 'personal' responsibility' of reporting "directly to CBSA or the police dep't" would mean a good possibility that no one else would know about it other than yourself, CBSA, or the police dep't? Do you think the CBSA/police dep't is going to REPORT this to the media to inform everyone else in Canada that this is happening?

Also I made the prediction that you wouldn't because you've been confining yourself in your Fort Knox since the beginning of the pandemic. So what're the chances of you snitching on your neighbours' open BBQ parties say let alone being anywhere near Banff? Get real.



> Plugging Along specifically addressed the issue with an affirmative response of 'I would be calling the RCMP'. I am not deflecting anything.


 ... only if she was there or in that situation. She might have 2nd thoughts even then.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Beaver101 said:


> ... your assumption is that everyone else other than yourself would act irresponsibly.
> 
> Did it not occur to you that "your act holy of 'personal' responsibility' of reporting "directly to CBSA or the police dep't" would mean a good possibility that no one else would know about it other than yourself, CBSA, or the police dep't? Do you think the CBSA/police dep't is going to REPORT this to the media to inform everyone else in Canada that this is happening?
> 
> ...


Beaver101, you really aren't worth bothering to respond to. I make no assumptions but you seem to make a great many. The only person I believe would act irresponsibly based on this thread, is YOU.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> I think Americans are not part of 'us'. They don't give Canadians any special consideration. I have no problem fining and booting them out of the country if they violate the conditions of entry to Canada.


You may be right andrewf but perhaps are giving too much credit to people like this thread is about. Rather than not giving Canadians any special consideration, I don't think these kind of people give anyone, anywhere any consideration. 

It's curious that the couple in the RV in Golden, apparently according to the RV manager, did not UNDERSTAND why they were being asked to move from the centre of the RV park to another site on the edge of the RV park and away from any other RVs. In other words, why they had to be made to pack up and move which I suspect they saw as an annoying inconvenience. That to me would indicate no connection in their minds between, 'we could be putting others at risk' and 'we are being inconvenienced.' They can't see beyond the 'ME'.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The whole social "circle" idea in Ontario is an ill conceived plan, and the medical experts didn't advise it.

You can be in your social circle, but can't have anyone that is in another social circle.....loses all credibility for couples.

If your spouse is a member of your families social circle, they can't belong to their own families social circle ?

Our neighbor went up to their trailer in a resort park by the lake. They just opened the park and she said everyone is texting and saying they will meet there.

Time to get out the tropical shirt........it's party time. 🍺🍔 








.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... only if she was there or in that situation. She might have 2nd thoughts even then.


I have no doubt I would call RCMP in Banff about illegal Americans taking advantage of a loop hole. No second thoughts. I am actually not sure why you would think I would have second thoughts. Its not very difficult for me to call. However, if the RCMP asked me to detain them or something else, I would probably hesitate and not do it. That's definitely not my job. I have believed that we should have closed down the borders much earlier so would have no problems calling. I am also annoyed that I haven't gone to the mountains or my cabin in BC out of respect for those communities even though I have more of a right to go there than someone lying to get there. So I would have no problems calling. I would also post on social media if I knew how. But I don't use social media very much. 

However, please do get me wrong and assumer that because I would call about some illegal americans that our in my 'backyard' that I would call the police on a neighbor. It has driven me absolutely nuts at the disregard that others have for COVID. I have seen so many things that I consider wrong. However, I wouldn't call the police. If they are near me, I may say something, usually politely. 

It's not always black and white, but I think Americans coming in here illegal is just wrong.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> The whole social "circle" idea in Ontario is an ill conceived plan, and the medical experts didn't advise it.
> 
> You can be in your social circle, but can't have anyone that is in another social circle.....loses all credibility for couples.
> 
> If your spouse is a member of your families social circle, they can't belong to their own families social circle ?


They are calling them 'cohorts' in our province. The idea is that people can start expanding their social cohorts, but try to keep the same group. It's easier for tracing, and is in between going out with everyone or not socializing at all. Each group that you reduce, reduces the risk exponentially. 

For our schools, there are looking into cohort classes. Kids stay with their own class all the time including options. Before you would go to class with most of your homeroom (30 ish kids) but then share options across the whole grade ( up 60 kids) in three different options. In the second scenario, one kid could infect the grade (almost 200 kids) within 2 days. Here's you would be within your class the whole time. They are doing this for my spouses and kids sports too. Limited number of teams you play, no cross playing with other leagues, people are only allowed to play in one league (my spouse played 3 leagues before, and my kids in 2 each). 

It works for social circles too. Before we do any socializing with people, we ask what contact they have had over the last two weeks for public or private gatherings. We decide if we will do something based on that answer. We know someone who has a really large family with a lot of kids and they go to many other kids houses, so we haven't gotten together with them because it's too big of a cohort.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

I wonder if they stayed at a hotel/motel. The reception must have checked some form of ID and maybe gotten the license plate number for parking. My understanding is that they work relatively closely with the Police to catch fugitives, etc. They could have raised the issue with them. It is possible the travelers had Canadian passports, which would complicate things a bit. Or maybe the hotel was desperate to fill their rooms.

I agree with the above sentiments about enforcing the laws, particularly regarding health issues. If a Canadian had lied to the US border agents, they could have been banned from entering the US for years and harshly interrogated as if they were a serial killer; that's if they were not tased or shot on the spot.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Beaver101, you really aren't worth bothering to respond to. I make no assumptions but you seem to make a great many. The only person I believe would act irresponsibly based on this thread, is YOU.


 ... then why do you bothered to respond? Sure you don't make any assumptions as you simply make ACCUSATIONS and there you go again accusing me of acting irresponsibly when you don't even know me. Plus you can't comprehend what you read either. Just stick to the keyboard and keep up up making your condescending accusations in your little dreamworld.

To sum it up politely on your "act of personal responsibility": YOU'RE FULL OF IT. Like this one:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> I have no doubt I would call RCMP in Banff about illegal Americans taking advantage of a loop hole. *No second thoughts. I am actually not sure why you would think I would have second thoughts. Its not very difficult for me to call. However, if the RCMP asked me to detain them or something else, I would probably hesitate and not do it. That's definitely not my job.* I have believed that we should have closed down the borders much earlier so would have no problems calling. I am also annoyed that I haven't gone to the mountains or my cabin in BC out of respect for those communities even though I have more of a right to go there than someone lying to get there. So I would have no problems calling. I would also post on social media if I knew how. But I don't use social media very much.
> 
> However, please do get me wrong and assumer that because I would call about some illegal americans that our in my 'backyard' that I would call the police on a neighbor. It has driven me absolutely nuts at the disregard that others have for COVID. I have seen so many things that I consider wrong. However, I wouldn't call the police. If they are near me, I may say something, usually politely.
> 
> It's not always black and white, but I think Americans coming in here illegal is just wrong.


 ... you may make a simple call but there's a chance there is more to it ... ie. a follow up. 

A simple question or 2 for you - have you ever called the RCMP? What about your local police dep't? What was that you reported on and what was the response? Was anything done subsequently? I'm curious.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Often when watching the news about some incident somewhere my wife will say to me something like, 'people live in different worlds. We didn't grow up in a neighbourhood with drive-by shootings or metal detectors in schools to detect guns and knives. We didn't grow up being afraid of or hating the police. We didn't grow up being taught, keep your head down and your mouth shut.'

We all live in different worlds in many ways and clearly Beaver101 has not grown up in a world I would want to have grown up in.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... you may make a simple call but there's a chance there is more to it ... ie. a follow up.
> 
> A simple question or 2 for you - have you ever called the RCMP? What about your local police dep't? What was that you reported on and what was the response? Was anything done subsequently? I'm curious.


Yes, I have to both. Only once to the RCMP, super long story. It involved the potential for things to get out of hand seriously. Essentially they came out and check in on everyone during their rounds. It took almost two hours as were an hour out from the next town. It wasn't an emergency, so the response was appropriate. Don't know if they would have gotten there sooner if it was an emergency.

Have I called the local police? Numerous times, let me do the most memorable ones, there more.

My parents house was invaded at gunpoint when I was living at home. After I fought off the invader, and my mom was pulled out of the house. I called 911 for help, managed to grabbed the keys to the get away car from the second gunman while trying not being able to find my mom. Ran back in the house to put on pants. When I came out, there was a full blown SWAT team surrounding the whole area. In the time had run to put on pants (I was fast) they had set up a SWAT, apprehended the first and second gunman, and found my mom. It was recorded that all that happened in under 7 minutes from when I first dialed 911. It felt longer, but that was the official record in court.
Sold our vehicle as is, provide a list of things that needed fixing and about the pricing (was very honest), told the guy that he should bring his own mechanic to check it so it was comfortable. He didn't want to. Two months later, he showed up at our door threatening us. He wanted us to pay for half of his repairs because Canadian Tire did a whole bunch of work not needed and charged a lot. He started pounding on our windows and blocked our driveway by sitting in his car. I snuck my young kids out of the back, ran to the neighbors and called the police. They came within 15 minutes, but the guy was gone. The police went to the guys house and told them to never come back again or he would be arrested. They cops came back when it the neighborhood the next day told us what they did.
Driving to work there was a person talking into her phone the WHOLE time. She wasn't paying attention to the road. Clipped a few pillons on the way, still did stop. She caused quite a few stirred. I managed to pull behind, get a pic while at a light of her plate and her. Call the non-emergency line. They said in this case, I should call the 911 because it was in progress. I followed the person (because I could), and some downtown police pulled her over, did not need me any more. Didn't ask for anything and I continued to the office.

I was at a strip mall. I saw someone scrap/back in to into a very very expensive vehicle while leaving the parking spot and just take off. I was going to take the spot, and tried to honk and stop them, they left. So I followed them, had my kids take a picture of the car, vehicle and plates, while I called. I followed him while on with 911 (handsfree). Then asked for the license plate of the vehicle hit, didn't have it, so drove back and gave them the license plate. They said that was all. I lost my parking spot, and went to do my errands in the strip mall. About 15 minutes in, I saw the owner on the phone looking at her truck. I came out a spoke with her, she said that the police called her while she was in the store told her there was a hit and run. They had contacted the other person already and he was coming back. I didn't even need to give all the pictures we took.
I back on to a wooded space. Teenagers have bush parties all the time. If it's hot out, I have to keep the windows open at night and can hear all the partying and drinking. It's annoying but I just ignore them normally. However, there have been times where I thought someone's safety has been in question (the yelling and starting of the fight) where I have called. I have heard the police turn on the sirens just down the hill which usually gets the teenagers to disperse.
There have been times that I have called because of some dangerous such as flying debris, I suspected drunk driving, and had to leave. They just taken the information, and thanked me. A couple of times they called back and for more information. I general don't call for any thing that just annoys me. I have no problems calling if it think there is a high probably of injury/harm, damage, or longer impacts, or high probability to catching someone. I don't call for trivial things, usually when I assess that my not calling could cause a lot more harm. 

So, I am can quite confidentially say, I have no problems calling the police when I think is needed. There may not always be a response, but if I don't call, there won't be one at all. I have never been asked to do something more afterwards other than answer a few more questions which I am fine.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> ...
> 
> We all live in different worlds in many ways and clearly Beaver101 has not grown up in a world I would want to have grown up in.


The world as it is now and has been for some time is a rather crappy place in which to grow up. Not at all the world I once knew.

I am old enough to recall the golden age of travel. 

The following comment from another thread resonates with this kid:



hboy54 said:


> It is summertime. I want to be in the north channel and Manitoulin Island. I was not given the ability to see the value of Europe and other world travel as the rest of you have.


It seems, from reading on cmf, that a great many people now want to retire at age 25 or sooner and go travel for 50 years. They are welcome to it. It's not much fun anymore. Now, with C-19, international travel is probably pretty much a dead letter for years and years. Maybe permanent. It was not nice anyway.

When I refer to the golden age of travel, I can recall a time - believe it or not - when one could show up at any airport, buy a ticket and fly. No need to show ID, no one cared what was in your 'flight bag' (remember those?). No questions or inspections of any sort. And nothing bad ever happened.

My dad used to fly on TCA (Trans Canada Airlines - later Air Canada) from what was called Malton Airport (later Toronto International) for business. My mum would drive him out there and us kids would tag along. We could board the plane with him to see him off, being asked to leave only when the plane was about to depart. Can you imagine that today?

I was about age 8 when I flew alone for the first time on TCA. I am sure my parents did not (as I have done since) pay a $110 each way 'unaccompanied minor fee'. Airline personnel were simply helpful to a little kid, including an invitation up to the cockpit (probably a non-pc term these days) for a look around. Can you imagine that today? (Am I cultivating a leitmotif?)

Now (well, pre C-19 anyway), a trip to the airport is a horror show. We are told to get there hours ahead, because of all the crap to be endured. Everyone and every item is a suspect. Take off your belt; take off your shoes. Don't smile. Don't make an attempt at levity or humour. It's a solemn occasion. 

It was actually not all that long ago when driving either way across the Canada/US border was a cakewalk. Usually only 2 questions: (i) Citizenship? (ii) Anything to declare? For many years I never saw anyone actually asked to show any kind of ID or proof of citizenship. Now, everyone is a suspected terrorist, a word unknown in the golden age. Similarly, what the hell was a "mass shooting"? Unheard of.

What with C-19, the world has forever become an even more hostile place. C-19 is out to get us. Everyone is a suspected carrier of the seeds of destruction. Keep your damn distance or risk punishment. Buy a few groceries and approach a cashier behind a wall of plexiglass. Time to pay means maybe a card reader wiped down with alcohol and handed to you while the cashier takes a few quick steps back from you like you are some kind of leper, social pariah or pos. No, do not bring your own bag or container. Who knows where THAT might have been? Nice.















And talk of such things as restaurants re-opening. All staff masked and hiding behind plexiglass to avoid any possible contact with their disgusting, diseased clientele. Really conducive to a fine dining experience. I expect never to eat in a restaurant again. 

The world of 2020 is not a world for anyone to grow up in. But there it is. It's been on a downhill slide for decades, but C-19 has hastened it's demise as fit for humans. I pity anyone born today.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> Yes, I have to both. Only once to the RCMP, super long story. It involved the potential for things to get out of hand seriously. Essentially they came out and check in on everyone during their rounds. It took almost two hours as were an hour out from the next town. It wasn't an emergency, so the response was appropriate. Don't know if they would have gotten there sooner if it was an emergency.
> 
> Have I called the local police? Numerous times, let me do the most memorable ones, there more.
> 
> ...


 ... thanks for your reponse. Seems all your contacts with the enforcement officers/divisions appear to be "urgent" or an emergency. So where're you located out west? I'm moving there for my retirement.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Apparently, Americans are not only avoiding quarantine rules in Canada.








21 members of reported cult that violated 14-day quarantine plan to stay in Hawaii


Twenty-one members of a cult called Carbon Nation who were arrested for violating the state’s mandatory 14-day quarantine told officials Friday they planned to relocate to Hawaii and wouldn’t accept flight assistance home.




www.staradvertiser.com


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mukhang pera said:


> The world as it is now and has been for some time is a rather crappy place in which to grow up. Not at all the world I once knew.
> 
> I am old enough to recall the golden age of travel.
> 
> ...


I too can remember the days of kids being taken to the cockpit and given a little pair of wings to pin on their shirt. The days when you could drive into/out of the USA with no ID asked for or anything else. The days before the current near strip search in airports,etc. The joke for us was how people pronounced Toronto. If you grew up there, it is pronounced 'Trono' rather than 'Toe ron to'. If they asked where were you born and you answered 'Trono' they waved you through. If you pronounced it 'Toe ron to' you got pulled over for further questioning.

Unfortunately, it isn't just those born today we have to pity Mukhang pera it is our already born children and grandchildren we have to think of. I have a granddaughter at university in England right now. Or at least she was. Now she is just stuck there waiting to see what happens. It's concerning to me given how poor a job England has done with Covid. This is the world she is going to now have to live in.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... thanks for your reponse. Seems all your contacts with the enforcement officers/divisions appear to be "urgent" or an emergency. So where're you located out west? I'm moving there for my retirement.


I am in Alberta. I plan to stay here from my retirement. Our law enforcement isn’t perfect but I would definitely rather have them than not. I think the key is not to call on trivial matters, that just inundates the system. I generally only call when I think there is a danger, large impact, or really need there help because I don’t have the authority.

Also, I wanted to added that when I called the RCMP, that was n BC.

On a side note, when my spouse was walking across the street (at a crosswalk on a walk signal). He was hit by a taxi turning. My spouse was not too injured other than some bruises, ripped clothing, and some broken items in his briefcase. The driver tried to drive a way because his passenger was in a rush. They argued, and a police officer came over, asked about the commotion. When my spouse explained what happen, the officer replied, ‘sir, this is New York, I see people get hit walking all the time with more injuries, and you dont look hurt, so what’s the big deal.’ 
My spouse replied, ‘I see the bigger deal is that you don’t see it’s a concern that pedestrians are getting hit in front of you all the time’. 
Again, I appreciate being in my city.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The call to disband the police is just insane. It is already happening in some broke American jurisdictions who can't afford their police departments anymore (not because of protests).

I think it is a stupid slogan, as it is highly alienating to the majority of the population. If you are trying to make the point that we should be using police differently, crying 'defund the police' doesn't convey that. What they are supposedly looking for is reform, and maybe a shift in resources to non-police interventions for things like mental health crises. It reminds me of the 'abolish ICE' slogan that is used from time to time. It is crazy to say a country would not have immigration or customs enforcement. Maybe if you were part of a larger customs union like Shengen, but even then you have air travel. Hyperbolic demands loses people who these protesters should be trying to persuade.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

andrewf said:


> The call to disband the police is just insane. It is already happening in some broke American jurisdictions who can't afford their police departments anymore (not because of protests).
> 
> I think it is a stupid slogan, as it is highly alienating to the majority of the population. If you are trying to make the point that we should be using police differently, crying 'defund the police' doesn't convey that. What they are supposedly *looking for is reform, *and maybe a shift in resources to non-police interventions for things like mental health crises. It reminds me of the 'abolish ICE' slogan that is used from time to time. It is crazy to say a country would not have immigration or customs enforcement. Maybe if you were part of a larger customs union like Shengen, but even then you have air travel. Hyperbolic demands loses people who these protesters should be trying to persuade.


 ... for a start, how about weeding out the 'bad' apples? Those that aren't meant for their occupations based on actual incidents or behaviours. I'm sure there's a record of these problematic officers (employees) and yet force's (management) are keeping a lid on and not doing anything about it. Maybe it's the "brotherhood" thing being practiced.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Isn't that more a 'reform'?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Isn't that more a 'reform'?


 ... yeah could be but not just putting on "hot air" like "we're going to reform the rules" or "provide proper training". How much proper training does a person with killing tendency need?


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Beaver101 said:


> ... for a start, how about weeding out the 'bad' apples? Those that aren't meant for their occupations based on actual incidents or behaviours. I'm sure there's a record of these problematic officers (employees) and yet force's (management) are keeping a lid on and not doing anything about it. Maybe it's the "brotherhood" thing being practiced.


The problem isn't that there a few bad apples, it's actually there are few good apples. The whole union and brotherhood is the issue. Take a look at what happened when 2 officers were suspended for pushing the 75 year old protester: Buffalo officers quit special team after 2 officers are suspended for shoving a 75-year-old protester, 57 officers quit the emergency response team because they felt the 2 officers were doing their job.

Whenever a "good" cop tries to shed light on the issue, they tend to get ostracized. 



andrewf said:


> Isn't that more a 'reform'?


Depends. I'd say you need to raze the structure to the ground and restart from scratch, integrating social workers onto the team. It's obvious that police are doing things that are outside of their expertise (wellness checks, dealing with homelessness and drug addicts). Think of it the whole ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. Right now, all the resources are spent on the cure (police), with little for the prevention (social services). All that happens is escalating costs as more money is funneled into police budgets with no decrease in (perceived) crime. Defund is probably a bad term for it, as Camden, NJ is used as the model, but the police budget is still significant. Defund police? People looking at Camden as an example. Wrong!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... yeah could be but not just putting on "hot air" like "we're going to reform the rules" or "provide proper training". How much proper training does a person with killing tendency need?


Reform can include having much higher standards for who can become police, and how they are held accountable.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think you'd have a hard time getting people to disagree with the position that other resources should be used to deal with some situations like mental health episodes. The 'defund the police' slogan doesn't mean that--it almost seems tailor-made to generate disagreement.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The educational requirements to become a police officer in Finland......A BA from University after extensive background investigation and psycological testing.

The educational requirements to become a police officer in the US.......get the most votes to become a local sheriff or have a high school diploma.

Federal agents like the FBI or Secret Service require higher education levels but they aren't the cops causing the problems.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

bgc_fan said:


> 57 officers quit the emergency response team because they felt the 2 officers were doing their job.


What I've heard is that 57 offices were advised by the union to resign as they felt they were not being protected. There is a balance that needs to be achieved. Clearly, shoving that man was not necessary. It wasn't like it was a young adult who just had a freak fall.

On the oher hand, this can become too heavy handed. In the example below, a black man was wandering in the street and muttering, apparently on drugs and potentially having a mental episode. A few minutes in, a second cop approaches and tasers him and cuffs him. This cop was charged with battery and assault. It could well be that this use of force was not in keeping with the policies of the department, but in this case it seems more appropriate to take disciplinary action and retraining. Criminal charges seems quite severe. If we are threatening police with criminal charges for debatable uses of force, we might quickly find ourselves without anyone willing to take on the legal risk of doing this job.









Fairfax Co. officer faces assault, battery charges for tasing man | WTOP News


A Fairfax County, Virginia, police officer is facing three different charges of assault and battery for allegedly using a Taser during a call Friday.




wtop.com


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I don't see anything "debatable" about charging that cop. Hope he enjoys his time in prison.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

andrewf said:


> What I've heard is that 57 offices were advised by the union to resign as they felt they were not being protected. There is a balance that needs to be achieved. Clearly, shoving that man was not necessary. It wasn't like it was a young adult who just had a freak fall.
> 
> On the oher hand, this can become too heavy handed. In the example below, a black man was wandering in the street and muttering, apparently on drugs and potentially having a mental episode. A few minutes in, a second cop approaches and tasers him and cuffs him. This cop was charged with battery and assault. It could well be that this use of force was not in keeping with the policies of the department, but in this case it seems more appropriate to take disciplinary action and retraining. Criminal charges seems quite severe. If we are threatening police with criminal charges for debatable uses of force, we might quickly find ourselves without anyone willing to take on the legal risk of doing this job.
> 
> ...


Protected from consequences you mean? It's just an example. I'm sure you can quickly google search other instances where people try to make police accountable and nothing happens, or things just get worse. Instead you get the union and other police officers defending the bad conduct.

You're leaving some pretty important facts out of that summary. I think the main issue is that he tased him several times, even after the man was on the ground 

_He ordered the man to roll over while he put his knee on his back and tased the man in his neck while he was on the ground.

While Roessler Jr. said the first officer who responded sought to assist the man, Timberlake appears to tase the man several times, body camera footage appears to show._

Tasing the man once to get control isn't an issue, or maybe multiple times if he is particularly resistant. It's the extra shots after the man is under control which is the issue. It reminds me of the Sammy Yatim situation. In both situations, there is little danger to others (remember Sammy was in an empty TTC streetcar with one way out). In both situations, the officer took the step to deal with the situation (I don't agree with the method, and in fact, I doubt there is no reason why they couldn't wait it out). But then they both took it too far. In Sammy Yatim's case, Forcillo kept shooting his body after it fell on the floor, which is where the attempted murder charge came up. In other words, if Yatim wasn't already killed by that point, Forcillo was demonstrating the intent to kill him.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I agree with all that. I guess the question is whether that was truly criminal, or merely cause for disciplinary action. We don't charge hockey players for assault that happens in the course of playing a game (for the most part). I don't think it is reasonable to treat less than perfect use of police force with criminal charges. Not that we should tolerate it, but if the standard is too extreme it will be very difficult to find people willing to do this job, or they may err on the side of too little force which will also lead to negative outcomes in some situations.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

andrewf said:


> I agree with all that. I guess the question is whether that was truly criminal, or merely cause for disciplinary action. We don't charge hockey players for assault that happens in the course of playing a game (for the most part). I don't think it is reasonable to treat less than perfect use of police force with criminal charges. Not that we should tolerate it, but if the standard is too extreme it will be very difficult to find people willing to do this job, or they may err on the side of too little force which will also lead to negative outcomes in some situations.


There was the Bertuzzi incident. But was tasering someone more than half a dozen times the tipping point? Of course, some people will interpret the whole case as the cop was doing his job, but ignoring the extras. Ideally it should give police a reason to think, "I have this suspect under control, do I really need to keep tasing them again?" Unfortunately, the argument will be, "I can't tase someone without being charged" which is completely missing the point.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

bgc_fan said:


> The problem isn't that there a few bad apples, *it's actually there are few good apples.* *The whole union and brotherhood is the issue.* Take a look at what happened when 2 officers were suspended for pushing the 75 year old protester: Buffalo officers quit special team after 2 officers are suspended for shoving a 75-year-old protester, 57 officers quit the emergency response team because they felt the 2 officers were doing their job.
> 
> *Whenever a "good" cop tries to shed light on the issue, they tend to get ostracized. *


 ... agree and that's what give the entire cops' dep't a bad rap. Regardless the rot starts at the top as they're the ones who supposedly can [and paid to] manage their boys/girls.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> The call to disband the police is just insane. It is already happening in some broke American jurisdictions who can't afford their police departments anymore (not because of protests).
> 
> I think it is a stupid slogan, as it is highly alienating to the majority of the population. If you are trying to make the point that we should be using police differently, crying 'defund the police' doesn't convey that. What they are supposedly looking for is reform, and maybe a shift in resources to non-police interventions for things like mental health crises. It reminds me of the 'abolish ICE' slogan that is used from time to time. It is crazy to say a country would not have immigration or customs enforcement. Maybe if you were part of a larger customs union like Shengen, but even then you have air travel. Hyperbolic demands loses people who these protesters should be trying to persuade.


What does your comment have to do with Americans breaking Canadian quarantine rules? You have gone ENTIRELY off topic. Start your own thread if you want to discuss a DIFFERENT topic andrewf. You comment a lot but have started relatively few topics of your own for discussion.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Is your own comment not, in itself, off-topic?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Besides a 'like' to click on, I wish we had a 'dislike' to click on and perhaps even an 'irrelevant' to click on. It would also be nice if the Original Poster of a thread had a 'delete comment' to click on when someone hijacked a thread off topic.

Besides finding loopholes to cross the land border, apparently some are also finding way to fly in.








Are Americans using ‘Alaska exemption’ to skirt border shutdown? Feds looking into reports | Globalnews.ca


Exceptions to the Canada-U.S. border closure are raising questions amid the coronavirus pandemic.




globalnews.ca





I also think that it is entirely possible that some of the Americans crossing are simply ignorant of our quarantine on all those entering Canada, even if they are told at the border by CBSA. In one ear and out the other. The ignorance of some Americans of anything outside of the USA is often astounding.

By the way, the USA does NOT have a mandatory quarantine period on those arriving in the USA. If it doesn't exist in the USA, why would the average American think about it possibly existing in another country?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The number of people trying to enter Canada for non-essential reasons is significant according to the following:








Thousands of tourists, shoppers still trying to enter Canada despite COVID-19 travel ban


The latest data from the Canada Border Services Agency reveals that 7,639 foreign nationals were denied entry to Canada under the discretionary travel ban between March 22 and June 16.



vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca





That's 7500 that have been refused entry for things like shopping! What it doesn't tell us of course is how many managed to BS their way in but if we know we are getting people trying, we have to presume some are getting through as the examples in the OP demonstrate. It also tells us that while the majority are from the USA, around 15% are coming from other countries.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ And so? What are you going to do about all these invaders? Call CSBA's snitch lines?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ And so? What are you going to do about all these invaders? Call CSBA's snitch lines?


I will have my eyes open and if I see people getting out of a US plated vehicle and entering a restaurant etc. then yes I will phone the authorities.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

I am thinking that soon it will be America complaining about too many Canadians wandering across the border.

As the ecnomy worsens, people who can not afford heating will want to go South and people looking for food will want to move South.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

calm said:


> I am thinking that soon it will be America complaining about too many Canadians wandering across the border.
> 
> As the ecnomy worsens, people who can not afford heating will want to go South and people looking for food will want to move South.


Why would a Canadian want to go into the USA given their continuing rise in cases? Take a look at what is happening now in Florida after they went into a Phase 2 re-opening.








Florida sees new record of 3,027 positive COVID-19 cases


Over the past 16 days, Florida has reported more than 1,000 positive cases.




www.firstcoastnews.com





Canadians would have to be truly foolish to want to go the USA given their disastrous response to the virus.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

People will do wild things when they are cold and hungry.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

calm said:


> People will do wild things when they are cold and hungry.


Umm, how many Canadians are that cold and hungry that they will do wild things calm?

Try thinking about most Canadians, not the outliers. What do you think Canadian Snowbirds will do next winter say if Florida is still reporting 3000 new cases a day? Still go south for the winter or say, 'umm, maybe this year we need to give that idea a pass.'

Unless the world turns upside down, there will be far more Americans likely to be doing 'wild things' in trying to get out of the USA than there will be Canadians trying to get into the USA.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Longtimeago said:


> Umm, how many Canadians are that cold and hungry that they will do wild things calm?


.
Sorry, but I did not want to hijack the thread with comments about economics.
I think that the economy is going to become so bad in North America that we will be begging to afford heat and food.
I was not thinking today, I was thinking 12 months into the future.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

So the good news is that it would appear the recent media attention to this issue in Banff at least has got the RCMP paying attention.








RCMP issued 7 tickets to Americans found in Banff, Alta. over the past week


Alberta RCMP have confirmed to CTV News that seven tickets for violating the public health rules for COVID-19 were given out to Americans last week.



calgary.ctvnews.ca


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> So the good news is that it would appear the recent media attention to this issue in Banff at least has got the RCMP paying attention.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I doubt that anything will come out of it, but at best they may get a flag when they try entering Canada again. It makes for an interesting situation if they really are traveling to Alaska and need to drive back though.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Many People Cross Our Borders ....

In January of 2005, the CBC reported that, “A Vancouver man has won an out-of-court settlement from the RCMP after an incident in which he says he was illegally searched by an American police officer.” The incident occurred when “David Laing was driving on a highway near Hope, B.C., when he was pulled over by a man with a heavy Texas accent,” who then told Laing that “it was a British Columbia road check. And he asked [Laing] for [his] driver's licence and [his] vehicle registration.” The article quoted Laing as saying, “I'm being pulled over and given directions by an American who won't identify himself.” It just so happened that Laing was also a police officer in Vancouver, and so he “refused to let the officers search his car. Under Canadian law, police officers don't have the right to perform that kind of search.” The CBC further reported that, “The American was a Texas state trooper working with a member of the Hope detachment of the RCMP.” After giving Laing a ticket for having two different addresses for his insurance and registration, “a different RCMP officer and Texas trooper stopped his car, decided he was driving under the influence of marijuana, and searched his vehicle and two-year-old son,” and “The police found no drugs and despite saying he was impaired just moments earlier, let him go.”24
The report then went on to explain that “The Texas state troopers were in B.C. as part of an exchange program with the RCMP to spot and stop drug traffickers. Called Pipeline Convoy, the program involves training officers to detect people who are lying or trying to hide things from police.” Further, “The RCMP settled with Laing out of court when he threatened to sue for unlawful detention. But the Mounties defend the search, saying Laing looked suspicious because his eyelashes were fluttering and his eyes were flashing.” The BC Civil Liberties Association stated that, “Laing's case presents a series of concerns – from using unreliable profiling techniques to a wrongful vehicle search, not to mention using an American police officer to pull over Canadians.”


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/cop-wins-rcmp-settlement-after-highway-search-1.541190



In 2002, when US Northern Command (NorthCom) was launched, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld stated unilaterally that the US Military could cross the border and deploy troops anywhere in Canada, in our provinces, as well station American warships in Canadian territorial waters.
Enhanced Canada-U.S. Security Cooperation and the Bi-National Planning Group


http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1390



The United States only recognizes Canadian sovereignty over its Arctic islands and not the Northwest Passage.

In 1988. an ageement was signed between Brian Mulroney and Ronnie Ray-Gun in which the Americans would always ask for permission before sending icebreakers through the Northwest Passage, and Canada would always grant it.








Northwest Passage - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Calm, that 2005 CBC story about the Texas cop certainly reduces the credibility of the CBC. The story invites the reader to infer that American cops are being clothed with police powers in Canada and that the protagonist, Mr. Laing, himself a cop, brought a quickly-settled lawsuit raising that allegation.

Assuming there was a U.S. cop involved at all, I would guess he was a ride-along to observe and not to exercise police powers himself. At bottom, it seems that the nature of the complaint, if there was one, was against an unlawful arrest and detention - a breach, _inter alia_, of s. 9 of the Charter and a correspondingly illegal search incidental to arrest, in breach of s. 8. The article does not mention an arrest but, if indeed there was a search, it must have followed an arrest. Even a rookie RCMP would know there could be no search with no arrest. We are told nothing of what provoked the alleged second stopping of Laing's vehicle and what were said to provide reasonable and probable grounds for arrest.

The whole story has a bad smell to it. Lots left out, or falsely reported, or something else.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mukhang pera said:


> Calm, that 2005 CBC story about the Texas cop certainly reduces the credibility of the CBC. The story invites the reader to infer that American cops are being clothed with police powers in Canada and that the protagonist, Mr. Laing, himself a cop, brought a quickly-settled lawsuit raising that allegation.
> 
> Assuming there was a U.S. cop involved at all, I would guess he was a ride-along to observe and not to exercise police powers himself. At bottom, it seems that the nature of the complaint, if there was one, was against an unlawful arrest and detention - a breach, _inter alia_, of s. 9 of the Charter and a correspondingly illegal search incidental to arrest, in breach of s. 8. The article does not mention an arrest but, if indeed there was a search, it must have followed an arrest. Even a rookie RCMP would know there could be no search with no arrest. We are told nothing of what provoked the alleged second stopping of Laing's vehicle and what were said to provide reasonable and probable grounds for arrest.
> 
> The whole story has a bad smell to it. Lots left out, or falsely reported, or something else.


And none of it has anything whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> And none of it has anything whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread.


That's is certainly true. There needs to be swift action taken against those among us (that would include me) who often times stray from the topic at hand and those who would turn an otherwise orderly focused discussion into an anarchical free-for-all. Banishment and fines would help to restore order.

It is perhaps the case that some topics tend to be a bit ill-defined or are so broad that it will not always be easy to ascertain where one has strayed beyond the boundaries of relevance. I would say that absolute authority must be vested in the moderators whose decisions will not be open to challenge, by way of judicial review or otherwise. It would be too cumbersome, I submit, to have a Rules Committee that would have to deliberate on every alleged transgression. Best left to individual moderators


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

This thread was about American's entering Canada.
I was trying to point out that they are crossing the border all the time and daily.
American military and American businessmen crossing into Canada.
If this thread was about immigrants seeking refuge, then I would admit to being off topic.
Was this thread only about those who could not afford airfare?
Canada has "Fortress America". American Capitalists own Canada,


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

calm said:


> This thread was about American's entering Canada.
> I was trying to point out that they are crossing the border all the time and daily.
> American military and American businessmen crossing into Canada.
> If this thread was about immigrants seeking refuge, then I would admit to being off topic.
> ...


Which part of 'Americans vacationing in Canada without quarantining' did you find hard to understand calm?

Seeing the word Americans does not mean any comment relating to Americans is close enough.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

More news of American assholes getting into Canada.








Sightings of American travellers on Vancouver Island raises concerns


At French Creek, the arrival of Washington State visitors is causing alarm amid COVID-19, and people are now watching license plates closely.




cheknews.ca





What's disturbing in that story is that when they tried to report the car load from Washington State, they go the 'run around'.

There is no excuse whatsover for Americans supposedly transiting to Alaska, to be on Vancouver Island. The RCMP needs to be told to jump all over this if they get such a call from the public.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Another example of Americans trying to get around the rules.


https://www.thelocal.it/20200703/treated-like-criminals-italian-police-turn-away-american-tourists-arriving-by-private-jet


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Another American couple not complying with the quarantine rules when entering Canada.








Coronavirus: Pair of Americans in Ontario fined, charged under Quarantine Act | Globalnews.ca


A pair of Americans have been fined and charged for breaking Canada's Quarantine Act in Ontario's cottage country.




globalnews.ca





Checking half a dozen links to this news, each one says exactly the same thing. In other words, they simply repeat the Police report they are given but ask no questions, do no research. They don't say why they were allowed to enter or whether or not they were put into quarantine or allowed to continue on their way. If I were a news reporter and the RCMP told me they had fined this couple, I would have been asking those two questions at least.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

$1000 fine for breaching quarantine is much too lenient.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> $1000 fine for breaching quarantine is much too lenient.


Assuming you can even collect it andrewf. 

What really annoys me though is that we aren't told HOW they were allowed to enter. I can't see someone entering through Ft. Frances saying they are transiting to Alaska. So what ESSENTIAL reason could they have for entering?

What is too lenient in my opinion is our news media. Simply cut and pasting the RCMP press release should not be enough for any competent news editor to accept.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Some good news.








As travel increases, Canada boosting presence of health officials at airports, U.S. border - National | Globalnews.ca


Newly released data from the Canada Border Services Agency shows a spike in the number of international air travellers arriving in Canada.




globalnews.ca





But also some bad news in that the number of people entering Canada is increasing.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The government has instituted new rules to combat the 'Alaska Loophole.'








Where do people buy home furnishings? - Providenciales Forum - Tripadvisor


Answer 1 of 18: I did not see any home furnishing stores while we were there. Are there any? Like for rugs, candles, etc.




www.tripadvisor.ca


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Well... a $750k fine. Things have escalated. I doubt he'll actually pay, but it's likely that he wouldn't be allowed back in if it isn't paid.

Kentucky man faces $750K fine for breaking quarantine rules by detouring to Banff


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Lol there are about 100,000 people crossing the border every day without isolating...
Trudeau doesn't follow Covid rules either.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

bgc_fan said:


> Well... a $750k fine. Things have escalated. I doubt he'll actually pay, but it's likely that he wouldn't be allowed back in if it isn't paid.
> 
> Kentucky man faces $750K fine for breaking quarantine rules by detouring to Banff


He was fined $1200 bgc_fan and then the next day when found to be violating the rule again, he was CHARGED with a violation and is required to appear in court where he CAN be fined up to $750,000 and also be given jail time.

The media always quote the big sensational number but never make it clear the person was NOT fined that amount YET.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eder said:


> Lol there are about 100,000 people crossing the border every day without isolating...
> Trudeau doesn't follow Covid rules either.


More and more Canadians are reporting those they suspect are breaking the rules Eder, whether it is Americans transiting through to Alaska or Canadians returning home from out of the country.

The same is happening with large gatherings/parties, etc. where people are breaking the group size and physical distancing rules.

Even out of province plates are getting people hassled from BC to the Atlantic Provinces.








Alberta man calls out B.C. premier after vehicle vandalized in Kamloops


An Alberta man whose vehicle was vandalized in B.C. suggests comments from the premier are sparking backlash.



bc.ctvnews.ca













People with Ontario licence plates getting rude welcome from presumptuous Maritimers


Two people who have been "plate-shamed" for their Ontario licence plates are speaking out about the backlash they have received from Maritimers.



atlantic.ctvnews.ca


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

Yesterday I came across a Virginia license plate (in a BC park). Looks like the fines haven't been a major deterrent.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Topo said:


> Yesterday I came across a Virginia license plate (in a BC park). Looks like the fines haven't been a major deterrent.


Did you call it in?


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

Plugging Along said:


> Did you call it in?


I didn't.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Such criminal acts going unpunished...mean while over 100k people cross from the US to Canada everyday without quarantine. The ******* most likely wasn't wearing a mask either!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Topo said:


> Yesterday I came across a Virginia license plate (in a BC park). Looks like the fines haven't been a major deterrent.


And did you report it to anyone?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Topo said:


> I didn't.


Why not?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eder said:


> Such criminal acts going unpunished...mean while over 100k people cross from the US to Canada everyday without quarantine. The ***** most likely wasn't wearing a mask either!


Action is taken if reported.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/alaskans-fined-quarantine-act-violation-1.5714125



But if everyone does as Topo did and not report it, we cannot expect action to be taken. If the RCMP or whoever got a dozen calls reporting a USA car, they will act. It is up to US, the public to do our part in enforcing our restrictions.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

What if the law empowered Canadians to remove the license plates from the offending vehicle and turn them into local law enforcement ?

The intruders can tow their vehicle back to the US and the plates will be mailed back to their home residence.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

Longtimeago said:


> Why not?


The risk is high if Canada were flooded with USA tourists. A few people here and there is not going to have a major effect, since we already have the virus circulating albeit at a low level. As such, calling them in is more an act of enforcing the law and not public safety. It was not like they were driving DUI or chopping a body in the bushes.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Topo said:


> The risk is high if Canada were flooded with USA tourists. A few people here and there is not going to have a major effect, since we already have the virus circulating albeit at a low level. As such, calling them in is more an act of enforcing the law and not public safety. It was not like they were driving DUI or chopping a body in the bushes.


I don't buy that answer Topo. If you see someone driving DUI, do you not think you should report it as a risk to public safety? If someone should be quarantining and is not, they are also a risk to public safety. I don't think you can differentiate between 'degrees' of risk to public safety.

If you had 2 neighbours not quarantining who should be, could you say, 'well this one needs to be reported because they are going around and having a lot of interactions but this other one does not need to be reported because they are only having a few interactions.' How do you know to what degree the occupants of the car you saw were interacting?

What is a 'major effect'? If the occupants of the car you saw do have Covid and infect 2 people, 4, 10? How many are you OK with?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Eder said:


> Such criminal acts going unpunished...mean while over 100k people cross from the US to Canada everyday without quarantine. The ***** most likely wasn't wearing a mask either!


Do you have some stats to show anything like 100K from the US per day?

The last stats I saw were for a week of land crossings, where one divides the total by the seven days, it works out to a bit under 25K crossing in a single day. Weeding out truck drivers brings this down to a bit over 15K crossings a day from the US.

For perspective, the 2019 week was a bit over 1.2 million land crossings from the US where truckers represented about eight percent of the crossings instead of the current  more recent sixty one percent.


'Course a more detailed breakdown would be needed as I believe this is the same time that my Canadian citizen co-worker returned from Texas to make sure he'd finish the two week quarantine before having to go to Montreal for his US green card interview.


Within that week, single day stats that included flights, land crossings and rail crossings were provided. The flights from the US were 1,193 while the non-truck driver land crossing on the same day were 6,175 and there were no rail crossings - making for a total single day crossing of 7,368 in a single day.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Topo said:


> The risk is high if Canada were flooded with USA tourists. A few people here and there is not going to have a major effect, since we already have the virus circulating albeit at a low level ...


Possibly ... the question is whether Canada is being flooded with USA tourists.

In a week in June 2020, non-trucker land crossings are reported to be 66K where in 2019, non-trucker land crossings were 1.1 million.
Note that the stat is crossings from the US so Canadians returning from the US would be lumped into these numbers.


Compared to when the border was first closed, there's more crossings. Whether they are tourists, Canadians returning or US citizens trying to visit dying parents is not clear. Either way, compared to previous years - the number are still low.


Cheers


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

Longtimeago said:


> I don't buy that answer Topo. If you see someone driving DUI, do you not think you should report it as a risk to public safety? If someone should be quarantining and is not, they are also a risk to public safety.


Longtimeago, what are the chances that someone would contract Covid from these particular people? It is not that everybody else walking around is negative. I would argue it is way more likely to get the virus from friends, co-workers, and family members than from some tourist walking in the park.



> I don't think you can differentiate between 'degrees' of risk to public safety.


How could you reasonably reach such a conclusion?? You know nothing about me. What if I were to conclude that you couldn't hike the Kilimanjaro?



> If you had 2 neighbours not quarantining who should be, could you say, 'well this one needs to be reported because they are going around and having a lot of interactions but this other one does not need to be reported because they are only having a few interactions.'


I am not making such a determination at all. I am not choosing who to report. I didn't report Virginia. Neither would I report California, Florida, or Kansas.



> What is a 'major effect'? If the occupants of the car you saw do have Covid and infect 2 people, 4, 10? How many are you OK with?


Have you ever thought about the police officer and border agent plus their families who would get exposed to Covid-19, because I called a license plate? How many are you okay with?


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