# Republican Presidential Debate Health Care



## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I was watching the republican debate and Wolf Blitzer asked Ron Paul if a healthy 30 year old opted out of health care, then became sick and went into a coma, should the state pay for it. He said that the 30 year old took the risk in a free society and that is to bad for him. That is is the way it should be letting him make the choice.

How insane is America when many places in the world can handle the health care issue but they have no plan in America. I simply can't understand how they think on this issue as I live in Canada and we all have access to health care. Sure we overspend on administration and so on but it is nothing next to the US.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Those people cheering the idea of letting a man without insurance die and then boo at Ron Paul for saying not all Muslims are terrorists are everything that's wrong with America.

GOP debate summary in one sentence: It's all Obama's fault.

The are dozens of reasons why America's health care is so expensive. Consumers are price sensitive, insurance companies are not. Hospital supply is constrained. The pharma's and service providers go crazy to markup their prices, etc. I've yet to see a politician that is able to tackle these issues in America's dysfunctional democracy.


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## LondonHomes (Dec 29, 2010)

ddkay said:


> I've yet to see a politician that is able to tackle these issues in America's dysfunctional democracy.


I agree that America has a dysfunctional government. It's being obstructed by the "All Taxes are Bad Crowd".

Obama's biggest problem was that he promised to make a lot of changes with out realizing that the US president is impotent within his own borders.

However, at this point I don't think that there is anything any US politician can do until they hit rock bottom.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Very true Londonhomes.

Ddkay I think every sentence in the entire debate started with its Obama's fault. It also looked like a lot of scary suits and equally scary people asking questions at the debate.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

My better half is American so this is an issue that is much discussed around here. After 5 years of observing his family I feel like I finally have some insight into the major road block to change in America. 

First of all the average American can't even conceive of health care like ours, where you can go to any hospital and get whatever care you need for free. When I was pregnant I had my family dr, my OBGYN, a specialist in Gestational Diabetes, the hospital nutritionist and diabetes nurses. They gave me all my needles and kit for blood sugar for free and all I had to pay for was the insulin. I was at some kind of Dr at least once per week. I had 11 ultrasounds to check the growth of the baby and placenta for aging. Through it all he was by my side, freaking out because he had never seen health care this good, he was just incredulous. 

Later on he himself went to a free clinic and got the best care he'd ever had in his adult life. 

Keep in mind that this is a person who was working, who did have insurance. The problem is that for most people the 4 inch thick binder you receive when you finally qualify for health insurance is impossible to navigate. There is actually a training session to teach people to navigate the health care provided by their employer. 

My understanding is that everyone who has some kind of health care is paranoid about any changes to what ever they have. My mother in law on a $800 a month pension pays $100 extra per month for "extra" coverage on top of Medicaid. Basically everyone is terrified of the jerking around they get every time they need stuff done. It's fear pure and simple.


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## jagger (Jan 12, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tstpu5mDEI#t=04m50s

Well the exact question was: Should someone that can afford insurance, choose not to buy it, then ends up sick. Now, should society be responsible for this individual's welfare?

The Canadian system isn't perfect either. We have horribly long wait times, and mediocre doctors. People go to hospitals and end up waiting 9hrs just to have stitches put on a wound. Doctors simply don't care about the quality of care, since they know it's quite difficult to find another.

Compare this to a private clinic, and the experience is completely different. Go for a laser eye surgery consultation, and you'll notice the difference. Doctors greet you at the door, answer all your questions, even hand out their phone #s and email address. I guess they really want your business, otherwise they starve. Then should you decide to use their service, they'll often follow up after the procedure. Their business depends on customer satisfaction.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

jagger: I'm not so sure I'd pick health care systems based on the guy selling a non-essential service over the doctor in the ER room who has to deal with dying people, thus pushing some stitches back a bit, even if the sales guy is much nicer.

We can go back and forth on this and that. We can bring up the good and the bad, and we can talk about the exceptions in both instances that make each look amazing/terrible. And I understand the frustration with the system. It's not perfect, and can/should be improved. We all have frustrating stories. 

But in this instance, anecdotal evidence obscures the larger picture. American healthcare ranks higher in responsiveness or quality of care, according to a WHO report, but there's a high cost to that. The US spends more than any other nation in the world on healthcare, and it's no surprise it's the only industrialized nation without some form of universal healthcare.

Simply put, Canadians spend less (per capita and as a percent of GDP) than Americans, and live longer than Americans on average (by over 1 and a half years). Yes, there is a small percentage of Canadians who could afford, and would receive, better healthcare in the US system. But for most, no. We pay less and live longer. I know which system I prefer.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

jagger said:


> Compare this to a private clinic, and the experience is completely different. Go for a laser eye surgery consultation, and you'll notice the difference. Doctors greet you at the door, answer all your questions, even hand out their phone #s and email address. I guess they really want your business, otherwise they starve. Then should you decide to use their service, they'll often follow up after the procedure. Their business depends on customer satisfaction.


If you are suggesting that this is the experience of a typical patient in the US health care system (hospital or physician visit), nothing can be further from the truth.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

jagger said:


> We have horribly long wait times, and mediocre doctors.


And if you are suggesting THIS is the average experience in the Canadian system, I think you don't have a lot of experience with Canadian health care. 

(Writing as someone who has a chronic illness that requires fairly specialized care, who had major reconstructive surgery last year, and whose husband was in a catastrophic accident about 8 years ago. I don't think I'm just magically lucky. I think the Canadian health care system works.)


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> I think the Canadian health care system works.


In Ontario.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Yeah, and in an urban area in a major city, too. Those are variables I should be aware of as I'm making blanket statements.


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## LondonHomes (Dec 29, 2010)

financialnoob said:


> Simply put, Canadians spend less (per capita and as a percent of GDP) than Americans, and live longer than Americans on average (by over 1 and a half years)


It would be very interesting to see how good the Canadian health care system would be if we spent the same percent of GDP on it as the Americans do. If we did this I suspect that a lot of the talking points for the advantages of an American style health care system would disappear.

Of course we can't do this since it would require significant tax increases and all taxes are bad.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

I always hear horror stories about health care in Quebec so I don't doubt there are problems here too, isn't that mostly due to a labour shortage though? As for private health care being qualitatively "better", I mean a doctor's office shouldn't need to be decorated like the Palace of Versailles or send patients away with a box of chocolates and champagne. 

The logical reason you don't have to wait as long for procedures in the US is because there are an abundance of workers and less people can afford to actually use the system. The latest health care reform laws have put enormous pressure on hospital organisations so that they are forced to consolidate or go out of business. Of course once a consolidation occurs there is less supply on market and insurance premiums shoot up. The situation down there is just going to continue to get worse... especially with American's double standard thinking: abortions - not okay. Letting fellow citizens without health insurance die - perfectly fine.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

LondonHomes: I agree that if we spent an equal amount to the Americans, the system would look that much better by comparison. But in reality, no one spends quite like the Americans, and we shouldn't be thinking about trying to match them in spending.

Looking at figures from 2006, the Americans spent over 15% of GDP on healthcare. The next highest figure was under 12%, Switzerland, and most other industrialized countries were around the 10 to 11% mark (Canada is approximately 10%). The US is spending around 50% more of GDP than Canada and most other countries, a massive difference, and I don't think the quality would increase anywhere near 50% to justify the cost increase.

I do think we need to increase spending a bit though, and be smarter about various items. But I'd never want to see us anywhere near the US level of spending on healthcare.


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## jagger (Jan 12, 2011)

Money isn't the main problem, government run monopolies just aren't efficient. Why don't doctors do simple things like answer emails or return phone calls? Why is it so difficult to find a good doctor? Most I called, told me they weren't accepting new patients.


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

I've had great experiences with doctors in Ontario so far...I've seen more then a few specialists in the past and had the odd surgery (minor).....The most waiting I've done was waiting to do bloodwork in the local hospitol clinic.


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## ghostryder (Apr 5, 2009)

jagger said:


> Money isn't the main problem, government run monopolies just aren't efficient. Why don't doctors do simple things like answer emails or return phone calls? Why is it so difficult to find a good doctor? Most I called, told me they weren't accepting new patients.




There is a limit to the number of patients a doctor can handle. What does the government have to do with it?


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