# A Day in the Life of an Executor



## ttibsen (Sep 27, 2015)

I am the executor of my mom’s estate which at the time of her passing had come down to nothing more than a couple of bank accounts, the point being that there wasn’t any complexity in settling her estate. I recently received this notice from the lawyer as to what he would be billing to probate her estate and was a bit surprised to find that it was based on the value of the estate, somewhat akin to the real estate situation where the fees are in proportion to the price of the property being transacted.

The following scale is suggested for estates of average complexity.
On the 1st $100,000.00 of the value of the Estate***** -********** 3%	
On the next $400,000.00 of the value of the Estate -********** 1.25%	
On the next $500,000.00 of the value of the Estate -********** 0.5%	

Given the holdings in her accounts and doing the calculations, this means that the lawyer’s fee for probating the estate would be around 9000 which at first glance seems somewhat high but I must admit that I have no idea of the amount of work on the lawyer’s part to go through the probate process. I’m curious as to why they don’t just bill for the hours put in as they do for all their other cases? Is this sort of billing based on estate value normal for probate cases? Are there lawyers out there who would do the probate process based on the hours they spend on the case?


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

I was once in a similar situation. My lawyer friends told me that there was no way such a simple will could justify the legal fees on the lawyer's sliding scale. So I did some hard negotiation and we agreed on a more reasonable price.


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## Russ (Mar 15, 2010)

I guess the fees may depend on what services are required. Probate is only one step in the process. There are also banks to deal with ( a major pain) and tax returns to do for the deceased and for the estate. Also, reporting to the Ministry of Finance. If there is real estate involved, that also increases the legal fees.

I am just finishing an estate in the $800,000 range. I'm doing the whole thing. I'm not sure how much I have saved the estate but I'm sure it is a substantial amount - $5,000 at a minimum. But it has been a lot of work.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

Russ said:


> I guess the fees may depend on what services are required. Probate is only one step in the process. There are also banks to deal with ( a major pain) and tax returns to do for the deceased and for the estate. Also, reporting to the Ministry of Finance. If there is real estate involved, that also increases the legal fees.
> 
> I am just finishing an estate in the $800,000 range. I'm doing the whole thing. I'm not sure how much I have saved the estate but I'm sure it is a substantial amount - $5,000 at a minimum. But it has been a lot of work.


Based on what the OP said, there is no real estate involved in this estate.


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## ttibsen (Sep 27, 2015)

- probate is only one step in the process
- there are also banks to deal with
- tax returns for the deceased
- tax returns for the estate
- reporting to the Ministry of Finance

OK I get it - there are a lot of things to look after but does the lawyer look after every single one of the 5 items listed above? If he does, then maybe the fee is justified. Nice to hear that you saved the estate 5000 but just to compare it to my own situation, what was the total cost to look after the estate? Also, the question as to the mechanism of reimbursement for the lawyer was not answered. Is it always a percentage of the value of the estate or would there be some lawyers who would only bill for the hours entailed to finish the task?


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

Everything is negotiable. Your lawyer's assistant or paralegal probably does the lion's share of the work, not the lawyer. There is no reason for the percentage fee, except "common practice". Some provinces set a limit for executor fees, and it is expressed as a percentage of the estate, but that is a limit, not a minimum.

I did my grandmother's and parent's estates - the learning curve is steep, and the work very frustrating and time-consuming, but it can be done by a ordinary person.

Or a trust company. I would shop around for a better price, if you don't want to do the work yourself. The costs associated with probate process come out of the estate, tax returns can be done by an accountant, or by you, the banks cough up the money relatively easily given proof of death and certified copies of the will, and the Clearance Certificates are the worst - but are mostly waiting.

I didn't have to report to the Ministry of Finance, just CRA, but YRMV.


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## Russ (Mar 15, 2010)

I can't comment on the way lawyers bill for this type of work because I have managed, with one exception, to avoid using a lawyer in the four estates I have been involved in. Two of these required probate, the other two did not.

The one exception involved a will that required probate. I filled out all of the required documents but I wasn't certain I had everything right. So I took the completed forms to a lawyer to have them checked. He used the information from my forms to re-create the documents with his own software. He billed me $1,200. The whole process took a little over an hour. I argued that he had overcharged for such a small amount of work (mostly done by an assistant, I'm sure) and he gave me a "courtesy discount" of $200.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

ttibsen said:


> - probate is only one step in the process
> - there are also banks to deal with
> - tax returns for the deceased
> - tax returns for the estate
> ...


None of these things are rocket science. The one most likely to require a lawyer is probate. The others can all be taken care of by a competent person with attention to detail.....if you so wish. 

As I previously mentioned, I was able to negotiate a flat fee, based on the estimated number of hours of legal work. We got probate in three weeks. And the only reason I needed the lawyer do organize probate was because it was in another country, and I had to return to Canada and go back to work.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I handled my mother's estate/probate. It was fairly straightforward. I was going to get a lawyer to do the probate but then her former bank contact suggested that we do it ourselves. She advised us to get the $25. how to kit at Staples and consider doing it. I did just this. Read through the short document a few times and decided that it would be a fairly simple process for us.. The kit included complete instructions, multiple potential situations, plus a CD with all of the requisite forms that were required. We followed it step by step. It really did not involve much effort or time.

Did the required will search on line. The rest was a snap. When I had the paperwork complete I took it down to the courthouse. The folks there reviewed and pointed out an error. I made the corrections and went back. A person at the courthouse was able to notorize the documents/declarations that needed this. Paid the fee, paid the probate tax (on my visa). Three or four weeks later I got a call to go and pick up the probate release. I

On reflection it was really quite simple-a clerical task actually. That $25. Staples kit saved us a considerable amount of money in lawyer's fees. This was in B.C.

I would recommend that you at least consider this option especially if the estate is very straightforward.

I came from a business where we used to say 'where there is mystery there is margin' and legal fees reflect this. I think this may be the case for many straightforward probates. People assume it is complicated process but in our case it could not have been easier.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I've done probates in multiple provinces, it's very simple in most cases. In some provinces, they even provide you with a package with all the possible variations for every circumstance (will, no will, divorced, remarried, kids, adopted kids, etc.) and examples of the forms filled out for each direct from the government's queen's printers. Then there is also the 3rd party kits.

The final tax filing goes to an accountant and the taxes were the expensive part (as things like rrsps are cashed out). You need probate to sell the house (realtor). Getting cetified copies of the will (province), sending a letter to insurance companies and the banks (stamp), it's not hard by any means. The lawyer doesn't do much to justify their fees. The probate fee is minimal in most provinces (the lawyer charges it to you on top btw) but is on a sliding scale based on the estate value. 

My mother in law hired a lawyer when her mother died (she was the only beneficiary) and it cost her over $10k in legal fees. I don't think I spent more than $1000, including the probate fees on any of the ones I've done.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

As I recall, the costs I incurred for completing my mother's estate probate four years ago, not including the probate tax itself were:

Staples: $25. simple how to instructions kit

Gov't BC On line: paid $25 for a required on line search to see if any other wills were on file with the Court.

Filing Fees: $306. this amount included notary fees charged by the courthouse for three documents. I think it was $25. each and saved me going to a public notary. These fees depend on the forms that you require. In our case I had to fill out a statement that I had sent copies of the will to every beneficiary, and list their names/addresses. So that form was $25 to get signed. As I recall the rest was for standard court fees.

That was it. No legal fees whatsoever. The people at the court house were extremely helpful.


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

*Do it yourself*

Probate is nothing more than legally confirming the Will and Executor which will allow the bank to act on it with legal assurance that you're entitled to receive the money.. Do it yourself, buy the self help guide. Its easy particularly if the assets are cash in the bank. How many beneficiaries are there? It's unfortunate that you and you mother/family did no planning. I was the executor with my sister and there was a total of 8 beneficiaries (siblings and grandchildren) . I did it all. The accounts were in JWROS so no probate was required. There was no disagreement with the Will - siblings treated equally. Taxes are easy to do if you normally do your own taxes. Who did your mothers taxes when she was alive - they could do it.
When filing for Probate there are probate fees in in most provinces - in BC a $700,000 estate would be about $10,000 .... when you pay the court registry that amount you can think of it as the cost of no/poor planning.

Depending on the number of beneficiaries and the per cent each gets, if there is reason to believe there would be disagreements among the beneficiaries then having a lawyer do probate, get the beneficiary releases and a tax accountant do the taxes etc. 
may be cheap is it avoids family bad feelings. Remember your cost is only a percentage of what you are receiving from the estate and sometimes working to save all beneficiaries money when they might be suspicious or disagree with you just isn't worth it.


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## ttibsen (Sep 27, 2015)

When the lawyer says that he bills according to the value of the estate - let's say we have the following scenario - at the time of death the estate is worh 600,000 - by the time all expenses are covered, the estate is now down to 500,000 - as cited previously the lawyer sliding scale of fees is

The following scale is suggested for estates of average complexity.
On the 1st $100,000.00 of the value of the Estate***** -********** 3%	
On the next $400,000.00 of the value of the Estate -********** 1.25%	
On the next $500,000.00 of the value of the Estate -********** 0.5%	

So now I'm curious as to which figure the scale applies to - the 500,000 or the 600,000 ?


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