# Sale of home failed on inspection - Improperly installed Roof cited



## mike_b (Aug 15, 2012)

Hello All,

I just had a deal to sell my home fall through on inspection and I'm looking for some advice. Okay, so here's the story...

My wife and I bought her parents house in 2009 outside Montreal. At the time our insurance company refused to insure the home unless we replaced the roof. As the roof was old 20+ years and clearly needed to be done we agreed and had the roof redone shortly after we purchased the home. Our house has a mansard and the total cost of the job was ~9k. At the time the roof was done everything seemed okay, however I wasn't totally impressed by the job since asthetically it seemed to lack the polish of a professional.

Now, fast forward 3 years and we're moving to a new home. We just had an inspection today for the sale of our home and the inspector discovered that there is no tar paper under the shingles. At least this is what he saw where he lifted a few shingles on the mansard. As a consequence and due to some other issues the deal fell through. This is very disappointing and know I am really scared that the whole roof needs to be re-done. So I am posting here to get some advice.

First, if tar paper is an absolulte requirement (i.e. not installing means the job was not done to code) and, as observed, isn't installed under the shingles what are my rights with regards to the contractor who did the job. Can I complain to him and ask him to re-do the roof? I am going to get a second opinion on the roof from another inspector that I trust just to be sure that what the first inspector claims is indeed valid.

I guess I'm looking for advice from anyone out there who has experienced something similar or who is roofer that can comment on the tar paper issue. Keep in mind that the place where the inspector observed this issue was on the mansard which is nearly vertical in its slope. 

Thanks,

Mike


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## Chris L (Nov 16, 2011)

"Ice and water shield" is required on the first 3 feet (lowest portion of the roof). Tar paper is recommended but not required as a last barrier to water penetration should the shingles fail. The ice and water shield is a stick on membrane that protects in case ice forms from melting snow and accumulates on the lower portion of the roof and wicks upward under the shingles. I'm not a roofer, but have done my fair share of roofs and this is my understanding of the roofing code.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

I agree with what Chris L says in principle. In most of Canada the old practice of installing asphalt-impregnated felt paper under the whole roof has been done away with. But Montreal marches to its own tune when it comes to building codes. So OP would have to check with local building officials to be sure of the local rules. (Most provinces now have uniform provincial building codes, administered largely by municipal officials. And those codes in turn are based substantively on the National Building Code. But I'm pretty sure that Montreal is still authorised to enact its own code.)


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## mike_b (Aug 15, 2012)

OhGreatGuru said:


> I agree with what Chris L says in principle. In most of Canada the old practice of installing asphalt-impregnated felt paper under the whole roof has been done away with. But Montreal marches to its own tune when it comes to building codes. So OP would have to check with local building officials to be sure of the local rules. (Most provinces now have uniform provincial building codes, administered largely by municipal officials. And those codes in turn are based substantively on the National Building Code. But I'm pretty sure that Montreal is still authorised to enact its own code.)


Thanks for the info. I can confirm what you state about the "Ice and Water shield" as my wife looked it up last night. If I understand correctly though, for certain shingles, not having the underlayment essentially voids the warranty. 

Next Day....

I just looked up the installation guide for the BP Dakota shingles that were installed on my roof. Essentially it states that "eave protection" (ice and water protection) is RECOMMENDED to be installed 12" past the inner face of the exterior wall and that 1 ply of 15 # plain felt underlayment is is RECOMMENDED for the remainder of the surface. This of course was the recommendation for roofs with a slope greater than 8/12 which my mansard is. Another thing to consider is that no part of the mansard actually crosses over the exterior walls of the house. This is of course the part of the roof that the inspector looked at since it is most accessible. Whether or not the portion of the roof that actually covers the attic has a membrane and felt underlayment is unknown to me and the inspector.

My wife found the original quote and bill from the roofer and we have confirmed that both documents state that there will be 3 feet of a membrane installed and the remainder of the surface covered by 15 # felt underlayment. Again whether or not that is actually the case on the lower sloped portion of the roof not the mansard is unknown to us.

So I guess I'm just going to wait till I get a second opinion from another inspector before I jump to any conclusions since it is starting to feel like the first inspector didn't have all the facts.

Mike


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## Chris L (Nov 16, 2011)

Can you get on the roof to check for felt paper? A quick phone call to the roofer might be in order to confirm it's existence. If you paid for it, and it has not been applied, you might ask for a rebate on the installation of the shingles equivalent to a certain percentage of the cost. It's impossible to remedy it now - would require a re-roof (and highly unnecessary), but your agreement with the roofer should be unkept.

Perhaps if the paper was not installed and you can secure a refund, this can be passed along to the buyer. 

If your roof is steep then the shingles will last a lot longer than a lower pitched roof anyway. When they sell you shingles and rate them by year i.e. 25 year or 35 year, etc. it's a measure of ideal conditions. As in steep roof, not south facing, lack of overhanging trees that might drop sap and leaves/goop, etc. Most roofs don't last nearly as long as stated. You might only get 15 yrs out of a 25 year shingle....

If it's not leaking right now, the inspector can't really say too much about it. However, I think if they find it not done properly, they could ask for a discount to purchase. I have a hard time with the deal being dead just because there's no paper...


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## mike_b (Aug 15, 2012)

Chris,

Well there were other things. The inspector spent 1.5 hours outside before even entering the house and by that time the deal was dead and the buyer split. So the inspector never even entered the home. Some of the other things that I recall, are that they discovered cracks in the foundation. The cracks as I've observed are hairline. Yes there are several, but this is a 60 year old home and we've never once seen water in the basement. Otherwise, there is a low slope roof over an attached garage that needs to replaced, but that was stated in the vendor declaration and already understood by the buyer. The inspector also said the front door needs to be at least 4 inches above the ground and that ours wasn't so the door needs to be raised.

The inspector filled the buyers head with the fact that there was already $20,000 worth of repairs required. I'm not sure if that's accurate, I surely hope not. Anyway, I suspect that the buyer got cold feet and was looking for any excuse to cancel the deal.

So since the inspection I have contacted a foundation repair company to come have a look and the roofer to answer to the claim that there is no underlayment. Also I got on a ladder today and check under the shingles on the top part of the roof. The part above the attic and I saw that there is no membrane or underlayment whatsoever. I wonder what the roofer is going to say? There is really nothing he can say, short of giving us a discount on the price we paid or re-doing the roof...

I guess the take home lesson here is, be informed before you have any contractors work on your home and pay attention to what they are doing and if they are doing what they said they would. Sounds like something Mike Holme's says at the end of his show when he talks about all the crap he had to do to fix a bad reno. 

Mike


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

In reality you might be o.k(however,it's void if it does'nt pass code-problem is home inspector's are brutal and most know **** and it's there second or ''retirement" career)a couple things.
1)Is the mansard(i'm guessing your mansard is a striaght 90 degrees/24/12) the actual exterior wall that is insulated or is the mansard built(framed out)from it?If there is a exterior wall that is built and properly(insulated/tyvek/2x6/ect)and the mansard is ''sistered" on the outside wall,you will be ok.(however it should have had underlay.Tar paper is obsolete now-synthetic is now code for fiberglass shingles)

You actually have the one roof design that is most forgiving(because you have essential a ''wall" so you won't have ice damning/condensation problems)I would be most concerend with what going on with the top of the mansard(where you will have rain/snow ect)sitting on....that is way more cructial than the sides of the mansard.

In any case,your roofer did ''screw'' you and was unethical(he did'nt follow spec's)This is tough and a ''grey" area,Get a roofing consultant for both parties to examine and go foward,they have more specific knowledge of roofing than your average non contractor home inspector(most have never swung a hammer)To bad you can't post a picuture!I own a roofing company and have been in the business for 15 yrs.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Forgot to mention-for the top of the mansard(anything under 3/12)to meet code the entire ''field" of the roof needs ice and water shield-there should be no felt @ all installed on the top.


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