# What are the largest rip offs in society today and what do you do about it??



## johnsazzr

I'll start with some emotional, timeless ripoffs that really piss me off :

1) Weddings ..been married twice...was widowed..

2) Babies..got 3

3) Funerals. have dealt with 2 directly..my first wife and my father...


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## archanfel

What do you mean by "rip offs"? Are you saying they are too costly or are you saying they are unnecessary?


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## johnsazzr

They are certainly necessary but the majority play on the emotions of consumers in the worst way..hence rip-offs


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## canabiz

#2 is a matter of personal choice. Different people have different reasons to have kids and not to have them. You may as well add pets to your list.


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## lb71

I understand where you are coming from. Thankfully up to now I have not had to deal with #3, but I can understand how someone in an unexpected emotional state could be taken advantage of. #1 and #2 are all a matter of personal preferences and how much you want to conform to society's norms.


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## johnsazzr

canabiz said:


> #2 is a matter of personal choice. Different people have different reasons to have kids and not to have them. You may as well add pets to your list.


I was referring more to the discretionary costs associated with having babies...ie have you ever been into a higher end baby store....I remember walking into one in Sudbury of all places prior to our first child being born and they had a lovely selection of baby gear, goodies and furniture. I particularily noticed a nice crib which appeared to be hardwood.. maple me thinks..and I noticed the price tag of $350 (1994) I commented to my wife that this did not seem unreasonable for an attractive, seemingly well built crib....she proceeded to CORRECT me by indicating that the price tag I was looking at was just for the bedding "ensemble" !....how I hate that word.."ensemble"

But then we even used cloth diapers..which were free, as my mother-in-law made them on her surger...


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## Spidey

johnsazzr said:


> I'll start with some emotional, timeless ripoffs that really piss me off :
> 
> 1) Weddings ..been married twice...was widowed..
> 
> 2) Babies..got 3
> 
> 3) Funerals. have dealt with 2 directly..my first wife and my father...



Respectfully, I don't agree that any of the above are necessarily ripoffs, because at least you have choices on how much you want to spend and where you spend your money. To take the first example, its totally up to the couple whether they want an inexpensive or lavish wedding.

What I find to be ripoffs are expenses where the consumer doesn't have realistic choices. Utility companies really bug me -- when you open a new account they charge an account opening fee which I believe is somewhere in the neighbourhood of $150. What business without a monopoly would charge you for becoming a client? On top of that, instead of a straight charge per kilowatt hour on our hydro bill, we are charged for delivery charges, debt repayment charges, etc.


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## mfd

I understand where John is coming from. All of the things he's listed people tend to have emotional responses to and can cause a lot of stress in ones life which makes them susceptible to bad financial decisions. 

I would have to add major home renovations. I'm not talking about looking for someone to paint a room. I'm talking about the renovations that impact your life. Things like kitchen and bathroom remodels. These are always delayed and in the end you get to a point where you'll pay anything to get the job done.


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## Rickson9

Cool topic!

1) Cars
2) Jewelry
3) Pharmaceuticals
4) Cigarettes

Working in the pharmaceutical industry I am familiar with the amount of profit the companies make and although we don't smoke, I have a feeling the margins are very similar.

We didn't think our wedding was a rip off because we both have small families and it was a family-only wedding. We don't consider children a rip off only because we know beforehand that children will be very expensive (financially and emotionally). Fortunately we haven't had to deal with a funeral.


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## msimms

1) Cars
2) Fixing the Cars
3) Pretty Women
4) Booze
5) Cigs
7) Food purchased at the Airport or Hockey Game / Organic Food
8) Gasoline
9) Real-estate purchased in the Greater Vancouver Area.


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## Rickson9

msimms said:


> 1) Cars
> 7) Food purchased at the Airport or Hockey Game / Organic Food


Good one!

As far as gasoline is concerned I don't think station owners make much from gasoline. Most of their profit comes from cigs, car washes and confectionary.


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## GregR

I have to agree with Spidey.

Utilities are the biggest rip-offs going. Over half our hydro bill is for everything but the actual electricity we use.

To top it off they charge high transportation fees when we have a local power plant that can easily supply our area with more than enough power and we still get nailed for transportation.

Not to mention paying for the debt retirement of a previous generations abuse and mismanagment.

Just my two cents.


https://www.networthiq.com/people/GregR


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## The_Number

I might get flamed for saying this, but for me, one of the biggest rip-offs is one of those popular brand-name gadgets. The prime example is an iPod.

What do I do about it? I opt out. I've been very happy with a $30 mp3 player for .... (how many years has it been? 4-5?)

(P.S. I know that iPod also "buys" social status, but I really don't care )


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## The_Number

Oh.... and let me add a couple of more things that I particularly felt after coming to Canada (from the US):

- Books are so expensive here. There is a huge difference between Amazon.com vs. Amazon.ca. Whenever I visit a friend in the States, I buy a whole bunch of books (sometimes in hundreds of dollars) and ship them to my friend's address and bring them back. Thank God there's no tariff on books.

- Postal Service: Canada Post is much more expensive and poorer quality than USPS.

Expense Ratio (Mutual Funds): Expense ratios on mutual funds in Canada are outrageous by American standard. I think somebody posted a link to the report that Canada received F in expense ratio in a study that compared mutual funds in 10 or 15 countries. That F is well-deserved IMHO.

(Of course, I have noticed the opposite as well. Certain things in Canada are unbelievably inexpensive. But that is for another thread.)


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## canabiz

The Number, I think it's a matter of personal choice when it comes to gadgets or toys. Some people may swear by the iPODs for the very simple fact that they are ardent Mac users, you will probably find iMac, iPhone and other Apple products around them as well.

Similarly, I am not going to tell an amateur (or professional) photographer that he or she shouldn't be spending $10K on a Nikon camera + body kits and lenses when a lesser-known brand name can do the same job for much less. 

I just don't think we can measure in monetary values what people enjoy as their hobbies.


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## Rickson9

Starbucks coffee and fountain drinks at fast food joints. Those are some items with healthy profit margins!


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## moneygardener

Biggest rip offs:

1/ Cheques

2/ Stamps

3/ Tax that supports automakers


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## steve41

Just to restate what The Number mentioned upthread....

*Canadian Mutual Funds' MERs *compared with other countries. Their expense ratios are a colossal rip-off!


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## Antonia

Weddings, funerals and babies are definitely areas where a person can be taken advantage of due to the high emotional values attached to all three. (I went with a friend to a funeral service place once and they very sleekly made us feel guilty for not buying a high quality coffin that was hermetically sealed "for enhanced preservation.") 

Whole Foods is another place where it's easy to get ripped off (although one makes the choice to shop there). Bliss Balls, for example, are $10.99 at WF and $8.99 at the local Iranian corner store, yet WF buys in bulk. However, you have the choice of where to shop. Canada Post is the worst rip as there are no alternatives. I send the same item over and over to the US and (rarely) to Canada. Cost to send to US $6.70 or thereabouts with tax, and it gets to NY in three days. Cost to send to Calgary from Vancouver? Well over $9.00 and it often takes a week. You pay your money and pray the mail will arrive in a shorter time than possible with a carrier pigeon.

Pharmaceuticals are another biggie. The companies would have us believe that the high costs (and patenting) are to help them recoup the "losses" of funding clinical trials. However, when you look at their profits, it's easy to see that this is more a case of money management to benefit stakeholders. I pay $15 per triptan for my migraines. At an average eight migraines a month, that's a lot of money. 

Off topic: I would love someone from this forum to write a guest column for my blog. You are all so knowledgeable. 

Rosina
Middle Ageless (I changed the name)


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## Dave

Part of the rip-off with weddings, kids & funerals is the social pressure and expectations to which we should conform.

I will just give you an example with a funeral. I have been to one of a close family friend for the first time a few months ago. I had no idea what to expect. Other folks who have been invited told me that everyone is buying a flower stand with their's family's name on it. These things are sold in specialized boutiques and the prices still give me nightmares. We choose the cheapest one and it cost us 200$. I argued against it at first, but finally conceded that it would look really cheap if we just came with a bouquet of flowers especially since everyone else was buying one. And everyone did. It was a very showy, commercialized funeral with pretty much standardized expectations. What I would have preferred is to bring my own flowers and instead pay extra money for a mass for the soul of the deceased as is traditionnaly done in my country. It would be much more meaningful to me but nobody would have seen the last part, everyone would just have remembered that I was cheap. So I let it go, but the whole experience has been painful and frustrating for the wrong reasons. Do not even get me started on the ridiculous prices for body-preserving coffins, indoor shrines, etc  I spoke to some of the salesmen after the funeral asking what the cost would be for something similar if I died. The estimated cost was beyond 30K in today's dollars. 

Sorry for the long rant, but I still hate how I have been forced into this against my values by pure social pressure.

Dave


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## twiga

On funerals: I sympathize with Dave. Recently our in-laws dealt with the death of their father, also to the tune of more than $30,000.00 and it was all done to satisfy the expectations of the community (as mentioned a number of times by the family who would have preferred something simpler), a close-knit immigrant one, and now the widow must also maintain the grave-site and keep the candles lit. She was pleased to find these 7-day candles at the dollar store because the cemetary office was charging $5 per candle. 
Does anyone agree that although a traditional funeral as experienced in Canada's funeral "homes" can be a comforting time for the family and friends, that there are also some aspects that might be considered strange by say, an alien visitor to this planet? From the embalming and display to the interment in a vault so that the chemicals do not leach into the soil, the environmental aspect is out of whack. There are inexpensive options out there, but one then has to buck the expectations of family and friends to go for a simple (cheap?) casket, cremation and a home visitation.


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## canabiz

Re: funerals. I attended 2 wakes recently and both were cremated after. I know it's a morbid topic but is it much cheaper to get cremations than burial ?

Do you take the financial aspects into consideration when facing this situation or do you go with the deceased's last wishes (or family's general consensus) and that's all she wrote ?


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## dogcom

How about a wedding dress, you can get one used for about $200.00 instead of paying $2,000.00 and they are the same.

Most woman will get ripped off for a one time thing that looks the same in the photos.

The other rip off is jewlery, why bother with that when you can have a big screen TV instead. Luckily my wife realizes that a TV can be used and watched much more then a ring.


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## Jon_Snow

BC Ferries, a service which I probably use at least 25 times a year to travel from Vancouver to my island property. Cost me $120 bucks per trip (my truck and 1 passenger) and needless to say this is a huge yearly expense. I have thought many times about buying a boat and making the crossing of Georgia Strait myself - haven't really crunched the numbers in terms of cost of buying a boat, moorage, fuel... the damn ferries are probably still cheaper.


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## Mockingbird

I DON’T consider these rip-offs..

1) Wedding - Price you can control. Peer/family pressure is another matter.
2) Funeral - I would hate the thought of embalming and physically burying my own family member. Gladly let someone do them and I'll gladly pay for their service. You can at least control the cost associated with it by writing down exactly what you want while you are alive. There will be no misunderstanding by other family members (social pressure). By the way, cheapest is around $1200 for no service, cremation, transportation, and paper work. Your CPP death benefit should at least cover this amount. All other stuff is extra and they could add up considerably.
3) Babies - Kids cost money whether we like it or not. We do have choice on how many we want to have and how much we want to spoil them. 

*But here is my list..*

1) System Access Fees on cell phones
2) Bank Fee for withdrawing your own money
3) Gas Price especially here on the westcoast.
4) Fees on gift cards. eg. Monthly maintenance fee, transaction fee, expiry date, etc (much improved now)
5) Liquor Tax on imports. One specific liquor costs less than $1 in the country of origin, but costs $11 here.
6) MER fees on mutual funds 
7) CPP Medical Benefits - most don't get approved till they are dead or nearly dead.
8) Probate Fee 
9) Unions' disruption on the public and amount of productivity ($$$) lost by others.
10) Promotion on eating healthy, buying organic, and buying local - most low/mid income families cannot afford them on a regular basis
11) Toll-booth or Airport Improvement Taxes (AIT). You rarely see them get discontinued even after the infrastructure is paid-off
12) Brand name drugs. Thank god we have generic versions for many of them.
13) Most credit card interest rate. If 18-28% is not a loan sharking, then what is?
14) Land Transfer Tax- one cool tax grab by our provincial government.
15) Foreign Exchange - about 4 cents spread at the banks, meanwhile 1-5pip ($0.0001-$0.0005) spread on major pairs in the forex world.
16) Minimum Advertised Price (MAP) - Suppliers dictate the cost of items to the retailers. Literally legalized price-fixing. One reason Nintendos and Ipods kept their prices up and you rarely see price discrepancies among different retailers.
17) Wine price at the restaurant. Cannot have a bottle of wine with a meal without paying outrageously inflated prices.
18) Mortgage Insurance - Just get a term insurance. Much cheaper.
19) GST on gas. It is a tax on top of tax. Go figure...

Finally,
20) Popcorn at the movies


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## michika

I want to add in the COST of education. Education in and of itself is very valuable, however the cost of it, makes it feel like a rip off. When I was in high school everyone pushed University, and college as a sure fire way to land a good job with great pay. that doesn't really give me the insinuated leg-up over my peers. There was also a lot of peer pressure and societal pressure to continue on to post-secondary education. So when I got out I realized yeah, I just spent 30K in tuition & books on a piece of paper

Then I compare the time I spent doing school to my partner, who learned a trade. He spent a total of 9 months in a class room, learned on the job, and now not only has a marketable skill set, but is paid well.

I have to say the cost of education itself feels like a rip off. I put in 30K + living expenses, and got very little out of my degree when I think about its applications outside of academia.


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## stephenheath

To me, the biggest rip off in society is friggin cards. Birthday cards, Christmas cards, Mother's Day cards, Father's Day cards, Valentine's day, Easter, etc. etc. EVERY YEAR... .the list goes on and on, and they're over $5 for a stupid folded piece of paper. Most of the time they have grade-school level art/words or a simple photo, although I concede that there are a few that are particularly witty with great artwork.

When I was single, I refused to buy anyone any of these cards because they were such a ripoff, and each year I took the money I would have spent on cards and donated to charity.... but my wife is bound and determined that every present/holiday has a card, even though 9 times out of 10 she forgets to send it on time, or "has to settle for a so so card". I would love to get her family to just stop wasting all that money and spend it on the practical stuff.


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## DrStan

michika said:


> I want to add in the COST of education. Education in and of itself is very valuable, however the cost of it, makes it feel like a rip off. When I was in high school everyone pushed University, and college as a sure fire way to land a good job with great pay. that doesn't really give me the insinuated leg-up over my peers. There was also a lot of peer pressure and societal pressure to continue on to post-secondary education. So when I got out I realized yeah, I just spent 30K in tuition & books on a piece of paper
> 
> Then I compare the time I spent doing school to my partner, who learned a trade. He spent a total of 9 months in a class room, learned on the job, and now not only has a marketable skill set, but is paid well.
> 
> I have to say the cost of education itself feels like a rip off. I put in 30K + living expenses, and got very little out of my degree when I think about its applications outside of academia.



Actually, you spent 30K on acquiring knowledge, critical and reasoning skills. Students shoulder a very small part of the actual cost of their education. The rest is borne by taxpayers. I have paid over $45,000 in tuition fees over the years and I do believe that these fees teach responsibility to students. Quebec colleges (cegeps) are an excellent example of what happens when tuition fees are close to nil; many students loaf around for years because they don't have much of an incentive to graduate and move on. 

Very good university students can get scholarships, the rest have to work to pay it off, unless mommy or daddy foots the bill. A good lesson in responsibility. I worked my butt off through university in order to graduate with no debt. If the actual cost was reflected in tuition fees, only the ultra-rich could afford higher learning, so to consider it a rip-off is a bit of a misnomer.


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## Mockingbird

michika said:


> I want to add in the COST of education. Education in and of itself is very valuable, however the cost of it, makes it feel like a rip off. When I was in high school everyone pushed University, and college as a sure fire way to land a good job with great pay. that doesn't really give me the insinuated leg-up over my peers. There was also a lot of peer pressure and societal pressure to continue on to post-secondary education. So when I got out I realized yeah, I just spent 30K in tuition & books on a piece of paper
> 
> Then I compare the time I spent doing school to my partner, who learned a trade. He spent a total of 9 months in a class room, learned on the job, and now not only has a marketable skill set, but is paid well.
> 
> I have to say the cost of education itself feels like a rip off. I put in 30K + living expenses, and got very little out of my degree when I think about its applications outside of academia.


Pretty much agree with DrStan. We all had our own share of student loan. Our family even had $40k+ worth in early 90's and managed to pay off within 5 years. Going to the university was our choice, leaving home was our choice, asking for loan was our choice, and paying it off was our responsibility. They were all part of grown up decisions. Did you know that in 2007-2008, tuition fees at the Queen's University accounted for 41% of operating revenue? The government (tax payers) funded 48% of the budget! Of course, free higher education for all would be nice, but someone’s got to pay for them.


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## CuriousReader

1. *System Access Fee* on mobiles
2. *Labor cost* on car maintenance / fixing (ridiculously expensive pay by the hour)
3. *Tax on renewing your license* (especially Toronto is a lot more expensive - what's the excuse for that?)
4. *Bracketed income tax* - essentially penalizing people for working hard and accomplish something / be successful. I think a flat rate income tax is fairer for everyone.
5.* Government officials spending* on travel, meals, etc - do they really need to spend that much of taxpayers money?? They already got a nice salary, and they still need to waste more - most of them dont even do much other than debating useless stuff
6. *Unions* - we live in a competitive world, unions just dont cut it - if you cant be competitive, then that's your problem, you cant just disrupt other people who try to work hard


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## CuriousReader

Let's also add *HST *to that list - is there any benefit for us, as regular tax payer, at all??

And this is just exactly one of the examples of wasted tax money - and hence I dont like paying taxes: http://www.healthzone.ca/health/article/643972


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## michika

DrStan said:


> Actually, you spent 30K on acquiring knowledge, critical and reasoning skills. Students shoulder a very small part of the actual cost of their education. The rest is borne by taxpayers. I have paid over $45,000 in tuition fees over the years and I do believe that these fees teach responsibility to students. Quebec colleges (cegeps) are an excellent example of what happens when tuition fees are close to nil; many students loaf around for years because they don't have much of an incentive to graduate and move on.
> 
> Very good university students can get scholarships, the rest have to work to pay it off, unless mommy or daddy foots the bill. A good lesson in responsibility. I worked my butt off through university in order to graduate with no debt. If the actual cost was reflected in tuition fees, only the ultra-rich could afford higher learning, so to consider it a rip-off is a bit of a misnomer.


I appreciate my education itself, I just can't say I appreciate the cost associated. Perhaps is the particlar degree that I'm basing this on, or maybe it was the institution I attended. I just found that the dollar value vs. experience I received with my first degree wasn't anywhere close what I am receiving now with my second and third.

I definitely do see your points though about how low costs can be incentives not to graduate. However at the same time low costs do grant accessiblity to those who aren't otherwise eligible under other systems.

When I'm talking costs I'll give you an example. Most of what I'm referencing are what I call R&R courses that a lot of the first 3 years of courses seem to be. You read and you regurgitate what you've read/been told. I had many classes in which the slides are taken directly from the book. That isn't real learning, and at $500-$600 per class that is where I find the real rip off is. Why not just buy the $100 book in this case?


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## Rickson9

Education, for me, has been a double edged sword.

First, with regards to my ability to invest, my education hasn't really helped at all. Actually I failed 2nd year university - this was at the height of my disenchantment with the ability of a university degree to create wealth.

Thinking about how hard my parents were working to put me through school, I just mustered enough enthusiasm to complete the degree.

Second, I am surprised that people are as impressed with my engineering degree as they are. If they only knew how much of that stuff I actually remember (none), they would agree with me that the degree is practically meaningless (I avoided saying 'worthless' only because my parents paid a pretty penny for it).


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## Retired at 31

I bailed from engineering on year in. Looking at where friends with a p.eng are and where I am, I made the right decision.

Very few degrees are an automatic path to wealth. They might give you the tools, but it's a person's drive and ambition that determines their trajectory, not the letters (if any) after their name.


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## canabiz

Retired at 31 said:


> I bailed from engineering on year in. Looking at where friends with a p.eng are and where I am, I made the right decision.
> 
> Very few degrees are an automatic path to wealth. They might give you the tools, but it's a person's drive and ambition that determines their trajectory, not the letters (if any) after their name.


As an engineering grad myself (not a P.Eng), i find one of your statement debatable. Sure you may be retired at 31 but who are we to say if your P.Eng friends are not happy working on their projects and making positive contributions to society ? 

I didn't think too much about folks who were in Arts and Psychology in school but I gradually realize not everyone can be an Engineer or a Doctor or a Lawyer. You choose the most suitable path, work hard at it and let the chips fall where they may. Everyone has something to offer to society, different folks have different strokes and I have come to appreciate and respect their choices.

I do agree with your second point, though. Booksmart does not necessarily translate into future success in life.


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## Retired at 31

canabiz said:


> As an engineering grad myself (not a P.Eng), i find one of your statement debatable. Sure you may be retired at 31 but who are we to say if your P.Eng friends are not happy working on their projects and making positive contributions to society ?


I meant it purely from a financial standpoint. Three of 4 of my p.eng friends didn't wind up in true engineering jobs. The one who did is designing cutting edge stuff and positively loves his job. You can't put a price on that, but he's also one of the poorer people I know due to taking a job at a small startup style company. It might payoff long term for him, or he might just use his creativity to make the people who own the corp uber rich. 

I'm biased to entrepreneurship - no disrespect to any degree intended. (ERTW! )


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## stinsont

if we have to pay for local tv that will be the biggest rip off in the history of television!


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## michika

I'm with Rickson in his comments, they are very similar to how I feel about my B.A. I make the same, if not less, at my post-school job then I did at my in-school job. My degree was valued at $0 according to my company. However my B.Sc and B.Comm are considered to be slightly more valuable, thankfully I went back to school because I wanted to learn, not because of what these degrees would bring me in the future.

I was led to believe that a university degree is the key to a good job that pays well. Its definitely not true!


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## moneymusing

CuriousReader said:


> Let's also add *HST *to that list - is there any benefit for us, as regular tax payer, at all??


Actually I would like to see them increase sales tax! Increasing consumption tax should decrease conspicuous consumption and might actually help out the environment a bit too. Of course decreasing income tax is an essential counterpoint to this.

In other words I think Income Tax is the a big rip off, not sales tax.

...and monthly access fees for hydro. It's a monopoly where I live so I can't even switch providers.


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## CuriousReader

moneymusing said:


> Actually I would like to see them increase sales tax! Increasing consumption tax should decrease conspicuous consumption and might actually help out the environment a bit too. Of course decreasing income tax is an essential counterpoint to this.
> 
> In other words I think Income Tax is the a big rip off, not sales tax.
> 
> ...and monthly access fees for hydro. It's a monopoly where I live so I can't even switch providers.



I would prefer to decrease in *BOTH *sales tax and income tax 

_conspicuous consumption_ is individuals' issue, it's people's own decision on how to spend their money


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## Mockingbird

michika said:


> I went back to school because I wanted to learn, not because of what these degrees would bring me in the future.





> I make the same, if not less, at my post-school job then I did at my in-school job





> I was led to believe that a university degree is the key to a good job that pays well. Its definitely not true!


Regardless of what they led you to believe, you made a conscious decision to attend university “to learn”, _*not*_ because of what your degree would bring you in the future. Then your current income level is a moot point, no?? With rising unemployment rate, I’m sure many non-undergraduates would rather be in your shoes rather than just with their high school diplomas. Many stats have shown that post-secondary graduates do make higher income. University degree will increase the odd of getting higher paying jobs, but as you realize by now, there are no guarantees in life.


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## michika

Correction, I went BACK to learn because I wanted to. My first degree was obtained mostly on the belief that it would help me get a better job with higher pay. Regardless though the point of this thread was to state what you thought were the biggest rip offs in society, and I did that. While you and others may disagree, I still stand by my original statement, that the COST, not the value of the eduction, is a rip off when many courses are what I outlined as read and regurgitate courses.


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## Mockingbird

michika said:


> Correction, I went BACK to learn because I wanted to. My first degree was obtained mostly on the belief that it would help me get a better job with higher pay. Regardless though the point of this thread was to state what you thought were the biggest rip offs in society, and I did that. While you and others may disagree, I still stand by my original statement, that the COST, not the value of the eduction, is a rip off when many courses are what I outlined as read and regurgitate courses.


Fair enough.


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## HaroldCrump

*My List*

My list of rip-offs (at least the ones I can think of right now) -
- Cell phone rates (esp. junk fees like System Access Fee)
- Cable/Satellite TV
- Mutual Fund MERs (mentioned above by other as well)
- Govt. ID renewal every 5 years (Passport, Driving License, car registration every year)
Adult passports and driving licenses could easily be 20 years for the same price.

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned Christmas, Thanks Giving and other holidays - if weddings and babies are emotional rip offs, these are much worse, and they happend every year


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## CuriousReader

How many of you feel that one of the biggest rip off is *government (ie. tax)* ?

I dont mind paying my fair share of tax for public services, but considering the amount of wasteful spending the government has been and keep doing, makes one feel that tax is just a total rip off.

Are you really okay with having a portion of your hard-earned income being taken away to pay some government official's dinner worth a few thousand dollars?


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## HaroldCrump

CuriousReader said:


> How many of you feel that one of the biggest rip off is *government (ie. tax)* ?
> 
> I dont mind paying my fair share of tax for public services, but considering the amount of wasteful spending the government has been and keep doing, makes one feel that tax is just a total rip off.
> 
> Are you really okay with having a portion of your hard-earned income being taken away to pay some government official's dinner worth a few thousand dollars?


I'll second you on this one.
Esp. once you start thinking of folks who are simply milking the system left, right, and center.
Leveraging every single possible tax loophole, working around their personal life/finances to take advantage of all free govt. programs and grants simply to avoid doing one day of honest labour.
And of course now the new shameful bailouts for big corporations and unions, etc.
It is shameful the entire "circle of life" built around the tax system - it is designed to feed on itself and keep it going.
Keep the politicians in their seats, the corporate executives in the private jets, etc...


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## byronbb

Rip-offs to me are items that are designed to break after a x amount of months/years (depending on the item), so that you are forced into purchasing replacement. Headphones are currently my bugbear, even $50 ones hardly last. Apple annoys me greatly with their "can't replace the battery to your ipod/iphone without getting it repaired" stance; having to pay for OS upgrades for ipod touch v 2.0 -> 3.0. Ink cartridges are the scam of the last decade. Monthly system access fees for cellphones are pure robbery imo. Any imaginary fee conjured up to rob you like "fuel surcharge" or "seat fee" etc.... These are almost snide in their boldness.


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## Alexandra

The new 5 cent bag tax in Toronto is my biggest pet peeve when it comes to rip offs - it is a tax that is not a tax because it is not collected by anyone but the business owner, and is not required to be paid back to the city - the store owners can just pocket it.

It especially burns because the cost of the bag was already built into the cost of doing business for the store. No store has lowered their prices to reflect their cost savings. And Mr Miller (our mayor) has banned the use of biodegradable bags in the city because they do not earn him money because they cannot be recycled. In addition, it is legislated that we MUST use plastic bags in our green bins, and all apartment building residents MUST use plastic bags to dispose of their garbage down the garbage chute for sanitary reasons.

The bags I used to get from the grocery store were handy things to have - they were reused several times for lunches, shopping, etc. before they were relegated to green bin status. Now I will have to purchase Kitchen Catchers for the same purpose, except they are not reusable in any way. They contain a deodorizer that smells and cannot be used for food items that you intend to eat. Furthermore, they have no handles, so are not convenient for carrying things. Environmentally, they are much thicker than the grocery store bags, and will take much longer to break down in the landfill. 

So to sum up the situation:

- We pay a bag tax that is not collected by the city and put to use in any "green" or environmental program
- Only the store owners in Toronto profit from this tax - they have not passed on the savings to their customers
- We are still required by city law to use plastic bags for the green bins and apartment garbage disposal
- We will now have to purchase plastic garbage bags that are NOT reusable
- The same amount of plastic will still end up in the landfills


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## moneymusing

Alexandra,

Do they actually call it a "bag tax". We in the maritimes now have to pay for bags, but it's just paying for plastic bags and this is the first I've heard anyone calling it a tax.

I actually do think it's a good idea though. Creating economic disincentives are sometimes the only way to change a consumers habits. Although you may reuse the plastic bags (and I as well), many people do not and simply toss them in the garbage. This effort will reduce the number plastic bags in landfill. People on this forum, I would suspect are very much into the reuse, but a large populous outside this forum do not care whatsoever.

If you have a problem with companies charging for plastic bags and reaping more profits as a result? Why not buy L.TO and take a piece of the profit for yourself? Businesses exist to extract every conceivable dollar from their customers. It's a reality, sad one or not.


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## HaroldCrump

Alexandra said:


> The new 5 cent bag tax in Toronto is my biggest pet peeve when it comes to rip offs - it is a tax that is not a tax because it is not collected by anyone but the business owner, and is not required to be paid back to the city - the store owners can just pocket it.
> 
> It especially burns because the cost of the bag was already built into the cost of doing business for the store. No store has lowered their prices to reflect their cost savings.


You have touched a raw nerve with me here - I have the exact same peeve, tried to do something about it and got nowhere.
The local councillors (I don't live in Mr. Miller's territory, but a similar suburb) have chosen not to see the whole issue and simply keep parroting "it's environment friendly".
If you ask me, a lot of this environment/green stuff is simply a guise to either rip more money off or line the pockets of their vested interest groups (large retailers and other businesses).

For example,
- Real Superstore used to have hand baskets for shopping when you are buying less items and don't need a cart. Ever since they introduced their "green bins", which you have to pay for, the hand baskets have disappeared. Now a shopper is forced to either lug a shopping cart along or buy their green bins.

- Our municiplaity has introduced the green cart for collecting kitchen waste - great idea and I'm all for it.
The downside - the kitchen waste disposal bags (paper or decomposable plastic) need to be purchased and cost over $1 per bag ($5.50 for a set of 5).
Most family households end up filling 2 bags per week on average
Households that are already budget strapped now need to shell out over $50 more a month for these bags.

- What flames more more about the large grocery chains that aer charging 5c. per plastic bag is the amount of waste and environment abuse in other areas.
They leave lights on inside the store all night, for example - how many KWs of electricity does that waste?
I walk by Superstore after they have closed for the night, and pretty much the entire store stays lit all night long.

I say if you wanna improve the environment, there are so many other things that are more impactful, serious and relevant than plastic bags.


----------



## CanadianCapitalist

I'm writing about this on the blog next week because I've changed my opinion on the grocery bag levy. 

I was initially miffed that Loblaws charges 5 cents on a grocery bag that probably costs them 1 cent to 1.5 cents -- a nice profit margin, probably not available on any other item they sell in the store. In one sense, I'm still miffed because the 5 cent levy should go to environment causes, not the corporate bottom line. But then consumers have a choice of not shopping at Loblaws and not other grocers have instituted a 5-cent levy as well.

However, consumers will not alter their behavior and reduce waste until it hits them in their pocketbook. So, in a sense, appealing to people's good sense won't cut it. When it costs them money, they'll be willing to alter their habits.

The reason for my changed opinion is that the 5-cent levy is not just a penalty. There is a corresponding carrot -- 50 PC points for every grocery bag not used, which will work out to a 5-cent bonus. My suggestion: get a grocery bag or take a bin to the store and save 10-cents and help reduce waste at the same time.


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## markievicz

Yeah the plastic bag thing isn't a tax, is it, so much as a charge to discourage their use. I have no real problem with it, both my and my spouse's home countries have been doing the same thing for years and people have survived. The amount of unneeded bags with one apple in them being brought half a block into my office every lunchtime is a colossal waste.

Having said that, although we do much of our shopping with backpacks at St Lawrence Market anyway, I've heard friends complain that not having supermarket bags to line their garbage bins at home is just driving them to need to buy plastic bags to perform that function anyway!


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## HaroldCrump

I would have sooo much preferred it if the 5c. plastic bag were a real tax, just like the GST/PST.
Call it the PBT (Plastic Bag Tax) as a separate line item on the bill.
That enables the Govt. to pool all the PBT and use it only for environment purposes.
What is completely unacceptable about the current situation is that the retailer ends up pocketing a very nice profit on the plastic bags.

The cafeteria at my workplace has recently started charging $0.75 for a styrofoam container, like a coffee cup or a lunch box - ostensibly for "environment" reasons.
The alternatives are - eat in the cafeteria on a ceramic plate or get your own container from home if you are eating at your desk.
The office is very busy and most people either eat at their desks or eat during lunchtime meetings.
More than 75% of people that eat lunch out end up paying 75c. for the lunch container every day.
A very nice profit for the catering company.
Same container, same cost to them, but a nice 75c. margin on top of existing margin on the food.
I'm telling ya'll - this whole "going green" movement by the large retailers and corporation is the _"Delenda est Carthago"_ of the modern times.
Every rip off is excusable in the name of environment.


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## moneymusing

But it forces change no? Sure they will be making a mint for a while, but people will eventually start to realize that it is costing them actual dollars (not just cents), then they will change their habits. Therefore confirming the positive environmental change.

It's not the end of the world that companies make profit. It's generally a good thing.


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## ashby corner

Lotto tickets.


----------



## johnsazzr

stephenheath said:


> To me, the biggest rip off in society is friggin cards. Birthday cards, Christmas cards, Mother's Day cards, Father's Day cards, Valentine's day, Easter, etc. etc. EVERY YEAR... .the list goes on and on, and they're over $5 for a stupid folded piece of paper. Most of the time they have grade-school level art/words or a simple photo, although I concede that there are a few that are particularly witty with great artwork.
> 
> When I was single, I refused to buy anyone any of these cards because they were such a ripoff, and each year I took the money I would have spent on cards and donated to charity.... but my wife is bound and determined that every present/holiday has a card, even though 9 times out of 10 she forgets to send it on time, or "has to settle for a so so card". I would love to get her family to just stop wasting all that money and spend it on the practical stuff.



Amen to that


----------



## SavingMaster

moneymusing said:


> But it forces change no? Sure they will be making a mint for a while, but people will eventually start to realize that it is costing them actual dollars (not just cents), then they will change their habits. Therefore confirming the positive environmental change.


Except I hate change being forced on me when the science behind plastic bags shows virtually every environmentalist claim about them to be entirely bogus. Yet another social change being made for "religious" reasons, not fact.

Oh, and you're making pay more for it.


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## Cal

The other day I needed air in the tires on my mountain bike. The air compressor ran on loonies only.

$1 for air! Your frickin' kidding me.

I bought an air pump at Canadian Tire for less than $10.


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## tktblogger

1. CEOs of government departments and public corporations that are making more than $200,000/year. These CEO (Chief Embezzlement Officers) are grossly overpaid for the amount of skills and contribution that they provide. Most of the real work and ideas come from the middle-managers and employees working under them. I believe that in many corporations and government departments, the top people are the most corrupt. I feel that there are conspiracies formed among boards of directors, politicians, executive headhunting agencies and etc. to select the CEOs that can best secretly divert money their way (though kickbacks & embezzlements), rather than the CEOs who can best guide successfully the corporations. Based on what I have read in the media, I suspect CEOs of the following corporations to have ripped-off society: eHealth, OLG, Ontario Hydro, HydroOne, Bell Canada, Nortel, and the Five Big Banks. 

2. Lawyers that are overcharging the public for frivolous work such as the numerous lawyers that were working on the Gomery Inquiry. In my opinion, the Gomery Inquiry should have cost less than $1 million. But because of the exorbitant fees from the tons of lawyers that apparently were really needed for the case, the Gomery Inquiry cost taxpayers $80 millions. The taxpayers were “raped” twice, first by the Liberal-friendly ad agencies, and then by the lawyers in the Gomery Inquiry.

3. Universities. Contrary to popular beliefs, I feel that universities are more than sufficiently funded. The universities are mismanaging the taxpayers’ money by overpaying their presidents, vice-presidents, professors, and staff. These university employees should blame themselves for the reasons why university graduates are heavily in debt and did not get a good university education. Most of the university employees are mainly looking after their self-interest by demanding year after year for higher pay, more fringe benefits, more vacation time, more privileges, more sabbaticals, and etc. University president and vice-presidents getting exorbitant salaries and severances for the easy jobs of managing a non-essential academic institution with many layers of middle-managers. Selfish professors who neglect their teaching obligations and only care about their bogus and useless research. Lazy professors who reuse the assignments and tests from previous years and let students cheat. Nowadays, with the Internet and negligent university employees, students can easily get a degree by plagiarizing and cheating their way through university. No wonder people are no impressed by a university degree anymore.


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## Alice

Cal said:


> The other day I needed air in the tires on my mountain bike. The air compressor ran on loonies only.
> 
> $1 for air! Your frickin' kidding me.
> 
> I bought an air pump at Canadian Tire for less than $10.




i know that most, if not all, gas stations here in Montreal provides free air for cyclists. Just ask the gas station attendant and he'll get the machine running.


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## dogcom

I agree with Cal, paying a buck for air to fill your bike tires is a rip-off. I have seen a few gas stations charging like this.


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## sprocket1200

I hate the bag tax because now we have to pay for our household garbage bags. for years we never bought any, just used the shopping bags for garbage when groc were unpacked.

now we buy garbage bags and use them to haul the groceries before they are used for garbage. why would anyone pay for a substandard grocery bag that has to be double/triple bagged? they have been planning to scam you for years...


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## Berubeland

Funerals

My friend (not financially savvy) ended up paying on payments !! for an upgrade to her step uncle's funeral he said he wanted to be cremated and this would be affordable with the $$$ they had. The priest said no it is against his religion (even if that's what he wanted) then the sister in law got involved anyways $30,000 later she ended up with the payments. If I was there the priest and the sister in law would have the option of paying for what they felt he needed. Against his wishes I might add. 

I knew the old guy myself and he would roll over in his grave if he knew. 

In my case I want all the money spent on a before death party with friends and family  After I'm dead I just don't care whatever's cheapest and I hope they use a coupon too. Otherwise i'm coming back to haunt them 

Biggest rip offs

New added fee for downloading over your limit from Rogers $25/month

Diapers

Business Banking Fee's

Credit card fees - especially over limit fees $30 for going over your limit 

Under use fee of $25 for not trading in your RRSP and not having a certain balance


Parking at court houses and Hospitals !!!!!!


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## michika

Bad product packaging! There is nothing like opening a box of cookies/crackers and finding out that inside the giant wax cardboard box is a air-filled plastic bag that is only half the size of the box. Then when you finally pull out the plastic bag and open it, you find that its only half full of product!

I wish more things came in re-fillable containers that you could just take with you, and have filled. Like bringing your own coffee mug etc. I would be thrilled to buy things like dog food, and other regular items with my own refillable container. There is less waste, you only buy what you need, etc.

The other one that really bothers me is Water Barrels. The local hardware store charges $110 (on sale now from $200) for the same Water Barrel that you can purchase from the City (well mine) for $22. I'm all about saving and reusing the water, but wow that is a huge price difference.


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## nick24

tktblogger said:


> 1. CEOs of government departments and public corporations that are making more than $200,000/year. These CEO (Chief Embezzlement Officers) are grossly overpaid for the amount of skills and contribution that they provide. Most of the real work and ideas come from the middle-managers and employees working under them. I believe that in many corporations and government departments, the top people are the most corrupt. I feel that there are conspiracies formed among boards of directors, politicians, executive headhunting agencies and etc. to select the CEOs that can best secretly divert money their way (though kickbacks & embezzlements), rather than the CEOs who can best guide successfully the corporations. Based on what I have read in the media, I suspect CEOs of the following corporations to have ripped-off society: eHealth, OLG, Ontario Hydro, HydroOne, Bell Canada, Nortel, and the Five Big Banks.
> 
> 2. Lawyers that are overcharging the public for frivolous work such as the numerous lawyers that were working on the Gomery Inquiry. In my opinion, the Gomery Inquiry should have cost less than $1 million. But because of the exorbitant fees from the tons of lawyers that apparently were really needed for the case, the Gomery Inquiry cost taxpayers $80 millions. The taxpayers were “raped” twice, first by the Liberal-friendly ad agencies, and then by the lawyers in the Gomery Inquiry.
> 
> 3. Universities. Contrary to popular beliefs, I feel that universities are more than sufficiently funded. The universities are mismanaging the taxpayers’ money by overpaying their presidents, vice-presidents, professors, and staff. These university employees should blame themselves for the reasons why university graduates are heavily in debt and did not get a good university education. Most of the university employees are mainly looking after their self-interest by demanding year after year for higher pay, more fringe benefits, more vacation time, more privileges, more sabbaticals, and etc. University president and vice-presidents getting exorbitant salaries and severances for the easy jobs of managing a non-essential academic institution with many layers of middle-managers. Selfish professors who neglect their teaching obligations and only care about their bogus and useless research. Lazy professors who reuse the assignments and tests from previous years and let students cheat. Nowadays, with the Internet and negligent university employees, students can easily get a degree by plagiarizing and cheating their way through university. No wonder people are no impressed by a university degree anymore.


You should seriously lay off the crackpipe, my friend! Come on, get serious!

"Most of the real work and ideas come from the middle-managers and employees working under them." 

Wrong. The people at the top are very good, but their teams are only as strong as the weakest link, and believe you me, there are some very weak links among the middle managers and employees.

"I believe that in many corporations and government departments, the top people are the most corrupt. I feel that there are conspiracies formed among boards of directors, politicians, executive headhunting agencies and etc. to select the CEOs that can best secretly divert money their way (though kickbacks & embezzlements), rather than the CEOs who can best guide successfully the corporations." 

Yeah. After reading this, I gave up and could not keep up with these crackpot ideas.


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## bandana

Here's my list.

1) Real estate buyer's agents
2) Canadian mutual fund fees/MER
3) Fees on bank accounts
4) Fees on RRSP/RSP accounts
5) Investment advisors
6) $19.95 per stock trade
7) Any item priced at $ xx.99
8) Any item priced at $ xx.95
9) Taxes on air tickets
10) Mobile phone system access fees


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## redcamalot

The Biggest Rip off of last 100 years is Bottled Water !


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## Oldroe

Yep bottle water I have 10 case in the basement, apparently it taste better.


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## Rickson9

Oldroe said:


> Yep bottle water I have 10 case in the basement, apparently it taste better.


I think the plastic is leeching into the water.


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## smihaila

-Property taxes
-Mandatory tips at restaurants (and calculated on the after-tax value)
-MERs on "closet indexer" types of Mutual funds
-TSX/TMX "liquidity removal" fee
-FX fees
-Wire transfer fees (absolutely NO control of who takes how much, for the whole money's path).
-tax on saving money/investing
-cable TV (fat & greedy monopolies, increasing fees each year)
-Government in general
-Quebec's drug insurance premium for people without private insurance
-Poor or mid-class people and their families being forced to do lots of sacrifices, frugality, always "tightening the belt" each year, just to make the Government happier with more spending, or for the greedy banksters to take their holidays, parties, caviar and champagne!
-CEOs of publicly traded corps
-Lawyers
-RRSP withdrawals bank's fee 
-North-American homes (expensive wooden barracks! compare them to Europe please)
-Bottled water ("companies" selling thin-air)
-Annual rent increases even during hard economic times/recessions or during deflation.
-Inflation eroding your hard-earned money no matter what you do (unless you're forced into becoming an amateur investor, never "on-par" with the professionals => always a loser game)


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## HaroldCrump

smihaila said:


> -Mandatory tips at restaurants (and calculated on the after-tax value)


This whole tipping thing has gone nuts, esp. this part of the world (North America).
I don't agree with this "tips for doing your job" culture.
Cab drivers expect tips for a regular point to point run.
Even servers at buffet places expect tips (or automatically added on for groups of 5 or more).
Tips for hotel porters, bellboys....basically anyone and everyone is tip hungry for doing their regular, day to day jobs


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## ykphil

I agree with your 3 rip-offs. I was married three times lol...and got 4 kids...No funerals yet in my immediate family, but I would probably agree with this one too...

I would simply add Christmas as one of the top rip-offs of all times...


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## Cal

I think it is kind of sad that items that are sold, or should I say resold at a thrift shop are taxed again. I mean they were already taxed at the time of original purchase, and to generalize, the people who do their shopping at a thrift shop could really use a small tax break.


----------



## Dr_V

HaroldCrump said:


> basically anyone and everyone is tip hungry for doing their regular, day to day jobs


The problem is that, in many places (and this happens regularly in the U.S.), employees' salaries are _reduced_ in anticipation of tips. We don't see this in Canada due to minimum wage requirements, but it does happen in other parts of the world.


----------



## Dr_V

ykphil said:


> I would simply add Christmas as one of the top rip-offs of all times...


Rip-off in a religious sense? I'll refrain from commenting there.

Rip-off in a commercial sense? Only insomuch as you allow it to be. Spend less.


----------



## Dr_V

I suppose that my contribution to the "rip-off" list is:

- the cost of cellphone rates in Canada (including the infamous: "Now you get to pay for text messages that _other_ people send you!")

Cellphones are just too expensive for my taste. I carry one (it's pay-as-you-go), but I spend <= $50/year on it. I just can't bring myself to spend more.


----------



## bean438

How bout our entire legal system.
It is comprised of judges who were former lawyers. They all know one another, and it seems as though they are light on sentencing maybe to keep the wheels greased? Look at all the money lawyers make. Judges too. Locked up criminals means no work for lawyers.

Also first nations people, more specifically the "big chiefs", and all their relatives all earning well into the 6 figures TAX FREE.

Absolute BS and a huge rip off.

I say turn the tap off and let Darwin work his magic.

Merry X mas.


----------



## ssimps

moneymusing said:


> [inserted by ssimps: re chargng for plastic bags]
> 
> But it forces change no? Sure they will be making a mint for a while, but people will eventually start to realize that it is costing them actual dollars (not just cents), then they will change their habits. Therefore confirming the positive environmental change.
> 
> It's not the end of the world that companies make profit. It's generally a good thing.


Exactly. If it bugs someone to pay for plastic bags so bad, then keep them and re-use them. At least where I am, when I pull out some old plastic bags and tell the teller to use it, I've never been told no. If you can't make a little extra effort to save yourself a few cents and save some plastic going into a landfill, then no offense intended, but is that not just being lazy?

Here the local food store started charging 5 cents a bag a few months ago and now when I go to the store maybe < 10% of people buy plastic bags. The store does not even keep them at the packing area by default and only pull them out when the person needs to buy them. People use reusable bags, no bag at all if it is only a couple items, or reuse old plastic bags like I often do. So it really does seem to work!

I see nothing wrong with this and I don't see the store 'pushing' plastic bags on people to try and make $. 

Also, if the 5 cents a bag was a 'tax' run by the gov., it would likely cost us tax payers 10 cents a bag to pay to have the program administered!


----------



## ssimps

ashby corner said:


> Lotto tickets.


For sure; a tax. I read that the lower the persons income, the higher about they spend on lotto tickets on average. So it is a tax targeted at the poor or the gaming addicted.

It is a choice where to buy them or not though I guess, but if you are addicted to them then 'choice' dimishs.


----------



## ssimps

redcamalot said:


> The Biggest Rip off of last 100 years is Bottled Water !


Second vote on this one too. Crazy and a waste of energy and materials, especially in Canada!


----------



## ssimps

*Many pension plans*

I'm probably really biased on this cuz I have none, but to me a big rip off are these huge pensions that some people get (elected government people, auto industry, other union based big companies?) that we know seem to know are not manageable long term and the tax payers, even those with no pension plan, may end up paying for. 

Why not just pay people more and give them no pension? They can save the extra $ like they should, or blow it and help stimulate our consumer based economy and live in a box when they get old. At least we would then know where our future bail out burden is at. We would also know if paying people what their unions say they should be being paid is realistic, either in the public or private sector.

Seems to me the people expect more and more for doing less and less when it comes to work, but maybe that is how things work now. We need a reset.

I'm sure to get ripped for bringing this up so I'll be the first to say that maybe I'm full of it on this one because, as I mentioned above, I have zero pension other than what the gov. is supposed to give me when I get old (if they still exist). But I have no choice in contributing to that, I have to. I'd like it if it was something I could choose to opt into or not.

Start kicking away.


----------



## HaroldCrump

ssimps said:


> I'm sure to get ripped for bringing this up so I'll be the first to say that maybe I'm full of it on this one because, as I mentioned above, I have zero pension other than what the gov. is supposed to give me when I get old (if they still exist).


I am in complete agreement with you on this.
I believe the Canadian workforce is divided into the pension Haves and the pension HaveNots.
Other than a very very small percentage of very skilled, savvy DIY RRSP investors, the majority of other workers will simply be Have-Nots in their retirement.
OTOH, it is shameful how well off the pensioned workers are.
It is even more shameful that the govt. now-a-days steals tax dollars to preserve those pension plans like GM and maybe Nortel.
There is a huge lobby that will never let any govt. level the playing field between pensioned and non pensioned workers.


----------



## Berubeland

No kicks here SSimps. Even my government pension will suck because I am self employed. 

I work weekends and evenings and stat holidays and whenever people want me to work. 

I am not eligible for unemployment, sick leave, compensation and I have the worst boss ever.


----------



## ghostryder

ssimps said:


> But I have no choice in contributing to that, I have to. I'd like it if it was something I could choose to opt into or not.


 
And all those public sector/private sector employees that you seem to despise (envy?) are forced to contribute to their pensions whether they like it or not.




HaroldCrump said:


> OTOH, it is shameful how well off the pensioned workers are.


But if those that don't have pensions simply put the same amount of money into their RRSP's/TFSA's that pensioned workers are forced to.... 




HaroldCrump said:


> There is a huge lobby that will never let any govt. level the playing field between pensioned and non pensioned workers.



Ummm, the whole reason the RRSP was created in the first place (back in the '50s) was to level the playing field between workers who had pensions and those that had no means to defer taxes on their retirement savings. The RRSP allowed those without pensions to put money away for retirement and differ taxation on that money (and the gains) until withdrawal.

The difference is simply that those with pensions are forced to contribute whether they like it or not, while those that do not have a pension have to take responsibility for their own retirement savings.

People with pensions also quite often have no control over how their money is invested, their pension contributions wipe out their available RRSP room. My wife has a pension at her work (a DC one), so her only means of saving for retirement is her pension, non-registered, and now, the TFSA.


----------



## ssimps

ghostryder said:


> And all those public sector/private sector employees that you seem to despise (envy?) are forced to contribute to their pensions whether they like it or not.


I definitely do not despise the workers / people; I despise the system they have access to (forced or not). I do envy them for sure and think I made this pretty clear in my post. Just for reference, my father is one of these people that you suggest I despise. 



ghostryder said:


> But if those that don't have pensions simply put the same amount of money into their RRSP's/TFSA's that pensioned workers are forced to....


.....if they have the same amount of $$ too....if they have the knowledge and luck to invest correctly..... and ...... 

This does not equal a guaranteed pension for life at all IMO. 



ghostryder said:


> Ummm, the whole reason the RRSP was created in the first place (back in the '50s) was to level the playing field between workers who had pensions and those that had no means to defer taxes on their retirement savings.


If this was the reason, then again, IMO it has not achieved its goal by a long shot. Way more needs to be done to make the playing field 'level'. 

How about the gov. open the pension plan they offer their employees to all tax paying Canadians? Maybe because it would be the financial ruin of Canada, which is my whole point and why I consider it a large rip off in society today.



ghostryder said:


> The difference is simply that those with pensions are forced to contribute whether they like it or not, while those that do not have a pension have to take responsibility for their own retirement savings.


We all have to contribute to CPP or QPP.

Other than that, this 'simple' difference is a huge one, again in my opinion. And again, many people may be forced, but they are getting a guarentee, while the others have no guarantee. 

Look at what happened in the last year or so, any government retirees last year have to sell their house etc because what they thought they had for retirement (their self-pension) was significantly wiped out and they were forced to convert like some non pensioned people had to?

Again, this is a very biased debate, depending if you are a have or a have not when it comes to guaranteed pension plan. If I was in the 'have' category' i would likely be singing a different tune, but I think I would also still see that there is a big inequality in the system as it stands now.

Peace.


----------



## ghostryder

ssimps said:


> .....if they have the same amount of $$ too....if they have the knowledge and luck to invest correctly..... and ......
> 
> This does not equal a guaranteed pension for life at all IMO.


I presume you are refering to people who have DB pensions. As I said, my wife has a DC one. Her pension is not guaranteed either. She also has little control over the asset mix, she must contribute whether she wants to or not.

The only difference between her pension and my RRSP is her employer contributes, and the fees her pension incurrs are much lower than my "couch potato" RRSP, but then I can actually control my asset mix, she cannot.


The flip side of a guaranteed (DB) pension is that it also guarantees that your "upside" is capped. You get what you get. No less, but also no more.




ssimps said:


> .....If this was the reason, then again, IMO it has not achieved its goal by a long shot. Way more needs to be done to make the playing field 'level'.


How would you do this? Exactly how "level" do you think it could get? The only way to make it "perfectly" level would be to increase contributions to CPP and ban anyone from using any other means to save for retirement.



ssimps said:


> .....How about the gov. open the pension plan they offer their employees to all tax paying Canadians? Maybe because it would be the financial ruin of Canada, which is my whole point and why I consider it a large rip off in society today.



Sure, why not? As long as employees and employers make the appropriate contributions you would simply be duplicating what CPP does. As long as they are making sufficient contributions to keep the plan actuarially sound, no problem. There would be no "financial ruin". Gov't employees and their employer contribute to the pension, same as any other employer with a pension. IIRC Fed employees contribute 60%, their employer 40%. So someone in the private sector who has a DB, DC, or RRSP matching plan that does dollar for dollar match is actually getting more from their employer.




ssimps said:


> .....Look at what happened in the last year or so, any government retirees last year have to sell their house etc because what they thought they had for retirement (their self-pension) was significantly wiped out and they were forced to convert like some non pensioned people had to?


Anyone who is retired (or near retirement) and was "wiped out" in the last year was WAY too exposed to equities. What is it that I hear Suze Ormond say all the time "if you NEED the money within 10 years, it should not be in the market" or something like that.

I have no sympathy for retirees that were whining because the value of their RRIF nosedived because they were over exposed to equities. If you can't afford the risk, don't take it.


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## ssimps

ghostryder said:


> I presume you are refering to people who have DB pensions.


Yes, you are correct, I am thinking mostly of DB pensions. Thanks for clarifying my arg.



ghostryder said:


> The only difference between her pension and my RRSP is her employer contributes, and the fees her pension incurrs are much lower than my "couch potato" RRSP, but then I can actually control my asset mix, she cannot.


Yes, but even these plans, how many companies have enough $ to actually pay out when needed. At least from what the media reports, there are a lot of company pension managers that also took too many risks, resulting in having current huge short falls, which resulted in them asking for $ from the government (which = us all maybe paying for something we all do not get). Pension managers are people too in the end, and can also get greedy and make mistakes. 

Also, RRSP limits are capped; no way I will be able to retire using my RRSP even if I get great returns and get 60 - 70% a year of what I make now.



ghostryder said:


> The flip side of a guaranteed (DB) pension is that it also guarantees that your "upside" is capped. You get what you get. No less, but also no more.


Sure, that is true, but the cap is way too high IMO. I guess that I'm targeting gov. plans here cuz I have some first hand experience with how high they can be. How much pension does an elected gov. rep. get for even 1 term? Alot I think.

Even non elected gov. employees, like my dad was, get a lot. For example, he was making about $100,000 when he retired; he got ~65% of his salary for pension because he retired 'early'. He gets this for life pension. It is indexed to inflation, so every year it goes up without question. He had to do no thinking or planning on his own to get this, but yes, he did have to pay into it.

He see's me working my *ss off now in a small business with no pension plan and he even feels that the gov. pension plans are way out of wack with our economic reality and $ fundamentals of this century.



ghostryder said:


> How would you do this? Exactly how "level" do you think it could get?


I would level it by removing the fat pension plans that are out there all together, not adding to the problem! Then everyone can be forced to think and learn how to properly save for retirement. Everyone would have to worry if they will be able to support their family once retired, etc, etc.



ghostryder said:


> So someone in the private sector who has a DB, DC, or RRSP matching plan that does dollar for dollar match is actually getting more from their employer.


I think I heard that < 10% of private companies have any pension plan or matching plan, I maybe wrong on my number, but they are the minority. 



ghostryder said:


> Anyone who is retired (or near retirement) and was "wiped out" in the last year was WAY too exposed to equities.....I have no sympathy for retirees that were whining because the value of their RRIF nosedived because they were over exposed to equities. If you can't afford the risk, don't take it.


So you should also have no sympathy for pension plans that can not afford to pay out either and should agree that we as tax payer should not have to end up paying for their mismanagement. Do you agree with this?

I hope that when the current gov. says that they are not going to increase taxes but instead look at making a leaner gov., that this includes pension reform in the gov. What about gov. pension reform, is that on the agenda?

I hear a lot about pension reform in the private sector because companies are finally realizing (finally be forced maybe) that promises need to be kept and they can not make promises to unions that are not achievable just to get people back to work. 

Thanks again, this is a very interesting debate.


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## Ben

This probably isn't the thread to be discussing this, but - a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. _(If the moderators want to stimulate a rip-snort of a debate, they could move all of this to a new thread...)_

We all have our biases - I'll state that I don't have a government pension outside of CPP/OAS. And I won't presume to know a lot about this topic. I have seen learned responses on other threads in this forum. This is a broad topic, and very few of us have the whole picture. It would probably take a full week to fully research and understand the pros and cons of the federal public service pension plan, and I recognize that the thoughts I present below only scratch the surface of both sides of the story.



ghostryder said:


> Gov't employees and their employer contribute to the pension, same as any other employer with a pension. IIRC Fed employees contribute 60%, their employer 40%.


I don’t believe this is accurate.

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/Pensions/psppg-corprfp-eng.asp

*Cost-Sharing:* (excerpts from link above)
_Historically, the government has assumed a larger share of costs - approximately 60 per cent on average. The cost-sharing ratio between the government and the plan members has gradually widened from the historical 60/40 ratio to more than 70/30 by 1999. In other words, the government is now paying more than 70 per cent of the current service costs of the public service pension plan.
Increasing employee contribution rates ensures that pension plan members and the Government of Canada, as employer, contribute to the pension plans in a more balanced way. By 2013, it is projected that employees will contribute approximately 40 per cent of the current service cost of the plan._

As far as I can see, it’s 70% government, 30% employee currently, and they hope to level this out a bit to 60/40 by 2013.

I was not able to find a table for exactly what the government (taxpayer) is contributing (presumably whatever additional is required to fund the promises they have made).

From above link, in 2009, federal employees contribute 5.2% of their earnings up to the CPP pensionable limit ($46,300 in 2009), and 8.4% on earnings above that. 

For a federal employee earning $80,000 salary, I calculate they would contribute 6.55% of their salary to their pension. *Assuming *70% contribution from the government then, this would be a 15.3% government contribution.

I don’t know anyone in the private sector getting an additional 15.3% in deferred compensation every year.



ghostryder said:


> So someone in the private sector who has a DB, DC, or RRSP matching plan that does dollar for dollar match is actually getting more from their employer.


The trouble is that most people in the private sector don’t have a RPP. Per Statistics Canada, The Daily, February 7, 2006, in 2003, the RPP coverage rate in the private sector was 27 per cent, while in the public sector that same year the RPP coverage rate was 86 per cent.

I participate in a dollar for dollar match program, defined contribution registered plan. I put in 4%, and the company puts in 4%. If I put in 10%, the company still puts in 4%. 4% is a lot less than the 15.3% the government worker is getting in deferred compensation. 11.3% less actually.

_Couple other random thoughts:_
I can shelter only 18% of my income from tax – and I have to contribute 14% of that amount. According to the above, the federal employee is able to shelter 6.55% + 15.3% = almost 22% of income from tax – and they have to contribute only 6.55% of that amount. If I saved 6.55% of my income for 30 years, I would have a very difficult time matching the income stream from a federal pension.

Parental leaves in some federal departments result in top up to 93% of salary for up to 50 weeks. This is very difficult to find in the private sector. For an employee earning 80k in the public sector who has 3 kids, a rough calculation says this can result in additional taxable income of over $150,000 over those 3 parental leaves, compared to someone pulling in 55% of the CPP pensionable amount on their parental leave.

It is true that the federal pensions coordinate with the CPP, and I haven’t looked into that effect as yet. There are presumably some other downsides as well.

As I said at the top, I don’t presume to have the full picture, and I’d guarantee there is a lot of missing perspective in what I’ve written above. But, it is really hard to see a hard downside to the federal pension. 

If you can’t beat ‘em – join ‘em. jobs.gc.ca. But with Flaherty's message this week about the size of the federal service, there might not be a lot of job openings.


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## ssimps

Ben said:


> If you can’t beat ‘em – join ‘em. jobs.gc.ca. But with Flaherty's message this week about the size of the federal service, there might not be a lot of job openings.


Thanks for taking the time to look up some real numbers; I should do that more.

Regarding "If you can’t beat ‘em – join ‘em" I disagree; I don't want to join and therefore add to what I see as a big problem. 

I guess I'm too idealistic and actually believe that people should be motivated not just by personal gain but by what is for the better good; in this case Canada debt reduction and hopefully tax reduction as a result for all Canadians. Given the way gov spends money, including fat pensions, I see no good in joining them only to be trained on how to blow Canadian tax dollars.


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## HaroldCrump

ssimps said:


> I would level it by removing the fat pension plans that are out there all together, not adding to the problem! Then everyone can be forced to think and learn how to properly save for retirement. Everyone would have to worry if they will be able to support their family once retired, etc, etc.


Well said, my thoughts exactly.
These fat, gold plated pensions are a big drain on the public funds and create inequality within the working society.
Different standards, different compensation for the same (or maybe actually less) work.


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## bean438

ssimps if you dont want to "join em" and be part of the problem then leave it be.

I will enjoy a DB pension, and I dont feel one bit guilty, or shameful.

It is what it is, and I knew what it was when I started working. I had the choice to accept the job, or go into business for myself, or pick another field of work, private or public.

Life isnt "fair". I think it is a waste that native "leaders" make over 200K TAX FREE without lifting a finger, unless you consider whining and highway blocking work, but at the end of the day all that really matters is that I look out for number one.

I do my job to the best of my ability and I am satisfied with that. Do I complain that my friend with a medical degree makes 5 times what i do? Nope. His choice to go to school.

Do I complain that little **** head punks make millions of dollars to shoot a frozen piece of rubber around a rink? Nope. If I had the talent I also could have made the choice to try to be a spoiled **** head.

Bottom line is pick a job that you would like to do, that compensates fairly.
Dont like it? Find something else.

You think my salary and perks are too generous? Well come do what I do and enjoy as well.

Dont want to? Well then STFU!


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## bgc_fan

*Government pensions*

Just to add a little perspective on the public service pensions, you do have to account for a difference in salary. Generally speaking one takes a pay cut when working in the public sector rather than the private sector. It can be significant depending on what job we're talking about. 

Here's a link to the rates of pay for the Public Service of Canada http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/coll_agre/rates-taux-eng.asp
You'll notice that we start at $40K and only top $100k at the highest levels of the pay scale. 

As for the pension plan itself, you can look at the website and draw your own conclusions: http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/Pensions/psppg-corprfp-eng.asp

As bean438 points out, it's a choice. You can go out on your own or in the private sector and have the chance of making it big, or at least making a significant salary with an RRSP account that is portable regardless of what future jobs you may have, or stay with one employer with the golden handcuffs and reduction in pay.


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## ghostryder

bgc_fan said:


> Just to add a little perspective on the public service pensions, you do have to account for a difference in salary. Generally speaking one takes a pay cut when working in the public sector rather than the private sector. It can be significant depending on what job we're talking about.


Yet another component that is often missed in this "debate". If an accountant who makes $70k working for CRA gets a good pension can walk across the street and make 6 figures,and gets an RRSP match from a private sector employer (and maybe stock options, or profit sharing), who is "better" remunerated?


Another that has crossed my mind is that many who are critical of public sector pensions assume that public employees will actually collect on the "full pension". I think (opinion only) that the baby boomers will be the last generation of public employees that are "lifer's" and actually stay in the public service long enough to get that "gold plated" pension. Of all the people I know who are (or were) public employees (including myself as a one time municipal employee) I can think of only one that will actually stay in the public sector long enough to get the years of service needed to get a full pension. Most of the people I know that started in the public sector just out of (or shortly thereafter) university are now no longer there. They have moved on. The ones who are still in the public sector didn't start until they were in their 30's, and many will have to work past 65 to get their full pension.

The days of people staying in a job (or with one employer) for life are over.


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## ssimps

bean438 said:


> ssimps if you dont want to "join em" and be part of the problem then leave it be.
> 
> I will enjoy a DB pension, and I dont feel one bit guilty, or shameful.
> ....
> Life isnt "fair".
> ....
> but at the end of the day all that really matters is that I look out for number one.
> 
> ....Do I complain that my friend with a medical degree makes 5 times what i do? Do I complain that little **** head punks make millions of dollars to shoot a frozen piece of rubber around a rink?
> 
> .....
> 
> Dont want to? Well then STFU!


Hey bean438, like I said before, I have nothing against you or the others that are able to participant in the gov. system, what I have issues with is the system you participant in itself. Not your 'fault' and I don't think you should feel bad about it. I'm not crapping on you. I just think it is time for things to change.

About your complaining examples; a doctor should likely make 5 times what you do, no offense intended. 

Regarding a hockey player, do I as a tax payer, have to pay for any part of that crazyness? No.

But I do have to pay for your salary and your fat pension (and I have to, it is not a choice to pay my taxes last time I checked) . So I think I have the right to comment on something that I have to pay for when I think it is a rip off. Besides, what is this thread titled?

"What are the largest rip offs in society today and what do you do about it"

>> Life isnt "fair".

No it is not, but that should not stop people from trying to make it more fair should it?

>> Dont want to? Well then STFU!

Nice. Merry Xmas to you too.


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## ssimps

ghostryder said:


> Yet another component that is often missed in this "debate". If an accountant who makes $70k working for CRA gets a good pension can walk across the street and make 6 figures,and gets an RRSP match from a private sector employer (and maybe stock options, or profit sharing), who is "better" remunerated?


Again I feel the difference is that I am having to pay for the CRA employee as a Canadian tax payer; I have too. But I'm not paying for what the company employer across the street gives it's employees (unless they also have such a fat benifit plan that they end up getting a gov. bail-out, hope not).


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## ssimps

bgc_fan said:


> As bean438 points out, it's a choice. You can go out on your own or in the private sector and have the chance of making it big, or at least making a significant salary with an RRSP account that is portable regardless of what future jobs you may have, or stay with one employer with the golden handcuffs and reduction in pay.


No debate that it is a choice. That the choice exists as it stands now is what I think it the debate.

Like I said in my first post on this thread:

"Why not just pay people more and give them no pension? They can save the extra $ like they should, or blow it and help stimulate our consumer based economy and live in a box when they get old. At least we would then know where our future bail out burden is at. We would also know if paying people what their unions say they should be being paid is realistic, either in the public or private sector."

I'm not asking for a fat pension, I'm asking that the fat get trimmed. Sustainable income and pensions are not fat, unsustainable ones are.


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## ssimps

HaroldCrump said:


> Well said, my thoughts exactly.
> These fat, gold plated pensions are a big drain on the public funds and create inequality within the working society.
> Different standards, different compensation for the same (or maybe actually less) work.


Also very well said.


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## bean438

ssimps, sorry I sounded a bit harsh. I get ticked off when my pension is attacked. (usually by well to do people who earn far more than I do).

Regarding hockey players, you as a taxpayer do in fact pay a portion of it. 
Companies pay to advertise. This cost is passed on to the consumer. We all have to buy groceries at some point, so if your grocer advertises then yes it will cost you.

Also since the spoiled **** heads cant afford hockey sticks on a million dollar salary, the team will supply them, of course this is a tax write off, and thus you pay in the end.

I guess what I am trying to say is that we are all interdependant on each other somewhere down the line.

Pick something you like to do and do it. Not happy? Quit and do something else.

My RSP room is limited by my pension. If I dont like that then I can quit and get another job.

Do I think it is absurd a politician can get a pension after 6 years? Maybe BUT then again what kind of incitement would it take to give up a lucrative career, living away from your family all year?
Besides if you ever watch parliament on TV, I think I would rather hang myself than be a politician.
Let them have their pension.

Is it outrageous a teacher gets paid the same as I do for only 10 months work? 
Not really. If you can handle dealing with 30 kids a day for 10 months then so be it.

Nothing will change so just go with it.

WHen the pie is being sliced up take what you can, and dont give any thought to what others will think.
I guarantee you they do not care one bit about you.

Now it is my turn to STFU!


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## ssimps

bean 438, thank you for the reply. 

Before tonight I never even knew what STFU meant, so I've learned yet another thing from participating in this forum. 

You may be right that things will never change.

Lets end this on a happy note:

Merry Christmas to you and your family and to all on the CMF!

PS: I'm one of the few Canadians that actually hates hockey and have and will never buy a hockey ticket, so I do not feel ripped off about that. Don't hold it against me.  I did just buy my snowmobile trail pass for $250 bucks though, so that is definitely on my rip off list today!


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## bean438

I have been tol to STFU many many times. Thats how I learnt it.
When I type I sometimes am thinking in my head that I am being sarcastic, but forget that sarcasm is hard to put in words.

All the best to you and yours as well.

I also hate hockey, and will never buy a ticket, nor will I accept free tickets, UNLESS in addition to the free tickets, you provide transportation to and from, provide me with a food allowance, as well as pay me 3x my hourly wage, plus an hour before and after the event. Even then I would have to think about it.


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## bgc_fan

ssimps said:


> I'm not asking for a fat pension, I'm asking that the fat get trimmed. Sustainable income and pensions are not fat, unsustainable ones are.


What would you consider to be the formula for a sustainable pension to be? Grant it the government pensions are defined benefit plans, so would it satisfy you to have them switch over to a defined contribution plan? 

At any case, these days there are going to be few people cashing out big. After all, to get 50% of your average top 5 years of salary requires 25 years of working at the government. Many people may not last that long, some may just say forget the pension and just leave. I've heard of a few people who just needed another year to get the full pension and decided to quit.

Again, the pension is a perk. After all, why would a doctor take a $100k salary to work for the government when he could triple that in the private sector? Or would you prefer that everyone in the public sector have salaries comparable to those in the private sector without pensions? Since I don't have all the numbers, it would be difficult to tell if that would really be better from a cost perspective.


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## dogcom

I think the biggest rip-off in the future will be carbon credits. Eastern Canada and Europe are finding a way to steal the money from western Canada and countries that mine and extract energy from the ground that they ship to Eastern Canada and Europe.


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## ssimps

bgc_fan said:


> What would you consider to be the formula for a sustainable pension to be? Grant it the government pensions are defined benefit plans, so would it satisfy you to have them switch over to a defined contribution plan?
> 
> At any case, these days there are going to be few people cashing out big. After all, to get 50% of your average top 5 years of salary requires 25 years of working at the government. Many people may not last that long, some may just say forget the pension and just leave. I've heard of a few people who just needed another year to get the full pension and decided to quit.
> 
> Again, the pension is a perk. After all, why would a doctor take a $100k salary to work for the government when he could triple that in the private sector? Or would you prefer that everyone in the public sector have salaries comparable to those in the private sector without pensions? Since I don't have all the numbers, it would be difficult to tell if that would really be better from a cost perspective.


I'd be happy if we all, public or private workers, had access to the same benefits if they are being paided using tax payer dollars AND if the plan was sustainable. I have no idea how or if this is possible; I am not an economist, or what ever type of background you would need to be able to really figure this out.

>> I've heard of a few people who just needed 
>> another year to get the full pension and decided to quit.

Wow, then they must have had real personal issues going on, or it must really suck to work where they did. Or maybe they got offered a fat job in the private sector because of who they know (have access to) in the public sector. Or maybe they were 'forced' out so the gov didn't have to pay. I have no idea.

>> Or would you prefer that everyone in the public sector 
>> have salaries comparable to those in the private sector
>> without pensions?

Yes, that was a thought I raised in my original post in this thread. I agree that it may or may not be sustainable, but if it was not, then would this not tell us something? I think at minimum it would have the advantage that we as tax payers would know what a mess or good situation we are in with our tax dollars, and there would be less chance that us and our kids end up having to pay for a system that is so complex and hidden that it takes years to even know if there is a probelm or not.

Either way (all tax payers get access to same pension options OR all workers doing same job get paid the same private or public, OR a mix ) I'm just suggesting that the field needs to be leveled; right now it does not seem to be.

So to summarize what I have learned so far from this debate:

1) Some private sector workers think that defined plans are evil because they do not have access to them in general, while public sector works do.

2) Some public sector workers think big pensions justify why they get paid less than a person doing the same job in the private sector. (is there data that backs this idea up though, just wondering).

3) There is probably no 'correct' view, because it depends on where you work. 

4) I still think it is a rip off that I have to help pay for someone else's pension when I have none and with my after tax dollars I am responsible for doing all my retirement planning myself, i.e. I have to create my own pension after I help pay for someone elses.


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## ssimps

bean438 said:


> I also hate hockey, and will never buy a ticket, nor will I accept free tickets, UNLESS in addition to the free tickets, you provide transportation to and from, provide me with a food allowance, as well as pay me 3x my hourly wage, plus an hour before and after the event. Even then I would have to think about it.


Then we should add hockey tickets, with all associated fees, to the rip off list. I can see this for sure.


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## HaroldCrump

ghostryder said:


> Yet another component that is often missed in this "debate". If an accountant who makes $70k working for CRA gets a good pension can walk across the street and make 6 figures,and gets an RRSP match from a private sector employer (and maybe stock options, or profit sharing), who is "better" remunerated?


The...ummm...public sector employee, IMHO.
6 figures mean higher taxes.
RRSP means managing your money and investing at your own risk.
Stock options are worthless in many cases, unless this accounting firm is one like E&Y, Delottie, etc. but then we all know what happened to Arthur Anderson accounting firm.

If our accountant friend works for the CRA for 30 years, he can pretty much retire at 55 with at least 80% of his highest salary, inflation indexed, for the rest of his life.


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## bgc_fan

HaroldCrump said:


> If our accountant friend works for the CRA for 30 years, he can pretty much retire at 55 with at least 80% of his highest salary, inflation indexed, for the rest of his life.


Just to point out a few errors. For 30 years it's 60% of the average of the highest 5 years, which is a bit different from what you wrote.


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## HaroldCrump

bgc_fan said:


> Just to point out a few errors. For 30 years it's 60% of the average of the highest 5 years, which is a bit different from what you wrote.


Fair enough, my apologies.
60% of highest salary drawn doesn't sound like a bad deal for me either.
I have no idea what accountants make these days (in govt. or private sector), but inflation indexed 60% of highest salary for the rest of one's life is not easy to replicate.
After retirement, this person can easily enjoy a very comfortable, even lavish, lifestyle since his/her expenses would have reduced significantly and he/she would have lost only 40% of their peak income.


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## kenwood

auto insurance
medical expense


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## buck wheat

*Cra*

There is a site called, 85 Canadians, say the CRA is incompetent. I, tried to access the site, but couldn't get on. I had a terrible experience with the CRA, I was victimized by that agency. I, did some research, and found, there are thousands of Canadians in dispute with the CRA. One such person, was from Prince George. The CRA shredded his files, it took this mans, business, his home, his other properties, and all of his savings, he won the case, however the CRA, refused to reimburse the man, for their mistake. He and his wife now live in poverty. He, personally talked to P.M. Harper, while he was on a visit to Prince George. Harper promised this man, that he would clear the mistake up, however, Harper reneged on his promise. I also found by research, seniors are badly victimized, they are too afraid and poor, to fight back. There is a site called Dan's tax information, it blew my mind how badly the poor are victimized by the CRA. In five years, they have refused to send all their documents, on my file. They sent me a letter, saying they would seize my house and contents and garnishee my pension. So, being a senior, I was so afraid, I started getting chest pains, from all the stress. My son paid a bill for me, that I didn't owe. And, there isn't anything you can do about it, because, the government approves CRA rip offs. Even if you are dead right, the government will refuse to help you. There are several class actions going so, anyone can join them, if, you also are having a problem with the CRA.


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## buck wheat

*Hst*

It was once said, low income families, would get a partial reimbursement "quarterly" to off set the HST. That goes to show you, how out of touch our governing officials really are. A single mother with two children living off $8.00 an hour in BC, will run out of money in two weeks and will be homeless within a month. People on Social Assistance, for sure will become homeless. In BC, there is an alarming number of seniors becoming homeless now. So, just imagine how many more seniors, will become homeless because of that asinine, unfair tax. Price gouging in BC, goes unchecked. Food prices have gone up 27%, gasoline goes up, in time for summer vacation, never fails. BC citizens were given another tax grab, the carbon tax. Now, BC people are hit with the HST grab. Where are the logistics in, taxing people with no jobs, losing their homes, their saving gone, EI run out. BC is in crisis because of so many citizens laid off. I would like an explanation from, Harper, Iggy, Campbell and Hansen, how citizens, can go about paying the HST, with what?


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## high octane

Just consider yourself lucky the CRA doesn't tax improper use of commas


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## Zephyr

Cell phone plans


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## Happyvdubber

high octane said:


> Just consider yourself lucky the CRA doesn't tax improper use of commas



LOL!

Valentines day
Greeting Cards
Booze
Access fees of any kind


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