# Air Canada's Over-Booking policy.



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

...so, I jumped over from that other "airline " thread.
Regarding A/C's infuriating over-booking policy. How do they get away with it? I'd like to see actual statistics on how many people actually "don't show up" for their flights. I know most all flights I fly on are jam-packed!
I don't buy that argument! If they don't show, the penalties are so stiff A/C probably makes MORE money off no-shows that reg. tickets- they get to keep the no-show's money, PLUS they most likely get to RE-SELL that seat TOO?
And -how does the policy work anyway??? Suppose Mrs. Humble & Mr. Jargey both have valid tickets for an over-sold flight. Mr. J gets a red light driving to the airport, while Mrs. H speeds thru a yellow light & gets there & gets to the gate 2 mins. ahead of Mr. J. 
Mrs. H gets the last available seat & Mr. J is out of luck. Is that how the policy works? Whatta way to run an airline! 
Does anyone know how they implement the policy? Is it just "check-in time roulette"? Or what.? How can you AVOID ending up on the wrong side of an oversold flight?
Also, I thought I heard the gov't is going to have a look at all this...GOOD! ..anyone have any info on that?? Even better...someone should call in CBC Marketplace, or W5 or whatever.
Whyyyy.....I remember....back in the days of TCA....this would never happen....
(oops. ...sorry ...having a "senior moment" there.....)

.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Why do we need the details on how you and hp got to the airport on AC's overbooking? And do you want to set a new handling procedure for AC's (or any other airline for that matter) overbooking?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

jargey3000 said:


> ... Regarding A/C's infuriating over-booking policy. How do they get away with it?


Because until the public demands it and pays the price for it, it will remain legal.




jargey3000 said:


> ... I'd like to see actual statistics on how many people actually "don't show up" for their flights.


https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/11/overbooking/
http://mathcentral.uregina.ca/QQ/database/QQ.09.07/h/don3.html
https://www.ft.com/content/e4cb5744-1e9d-11e7-a454-ab04428977f9




jargey3000 said:


> ... they get to keep the no-show's money, PLUS they most likely get to RE-SELL that seat TOO?


If there's someone willing to wait at the gate, hoping to get on a flight ... maybe. I don't know many who are doing that though.




jargey3000 said:


> ... Whatta way to run an airline!


Feel free to start one up and change the industry.




jargey3000 said:


> ... Does anyone know how they implement the policy? Is it just "check-in time roulette"? Or what.? How can you AVOID ending up on the wrong side of an oversold flight?


Check in the web the night before and be at the gate in plenty of time.
http://www.independenttraveler.com/travel-tips/air-travel/bumping-and-overbooking




jargey3000 said:


> ... I thought I heard the gov't is going to have a look at all this...GOOD! ..anyone have any info on that??


Nothing substantial yet, it seems.
http://globalnews.ca/news/3370381/canada-overbooked-flights-law/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...o-address-overbooked-flights/article34663313/




jargey3000 said:


> ... Even better...someone should call in CBC Marketplace, or W5 or whatever.


Not sure what the point is when there's info already out there. 


Cheers


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I think this might be a case of "be careful what you wish for"

What could the alternative look like? Increased ticket prices due to empty seats and/or less tolerance on missed flights policies

Currently people who get "lost" in the terminal or arrive late get "re-accomodated" on the next flight. Free of cost. People miss their flight or connection everyday for an endless number of reasons. Rather than have the CSR try to determine what is an acceptable reason, the current policy is just to issue a new ticket immediately. Chances are, someone will miss that flight anyways and there will be an available seat..

They don't keep money if someone doesn't show because they will eventually show with some crazy excuse. They don't have time to resell the seats when someone doesn't show. As far as I know standby are usually lower priority airline employees or people who got bumped. Otherwise they would have to deal with a crowd loitering around waiting for a cheap ride all day, increasing security lineups, taking up space etc

The current practice of overbooking and offering vouchers if necessary is often a win-win scenario. The airline increases efficiency by filling more seats and streamlining the lost passengers out of their hair. The airlines doesn't have to decide who has a valid reason for missing their flight and who is just incompetent and/or lying. An opportunistic person may get an easy $800-1300 and a free night on the town

The alternative would be a major hassle to get "re-accomodated" when you miss a connection for any number of valid or invalid reasons.

The system works well imo. At least until an airline overboards a flight and has to resort to physical violence in a confined space


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

Doesn't Westjet advertise that they DON'T overbook flights? How do they manage to get by?

(ps - thanks for info eclectic 12!)


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Off the top of my head Westjet makes efficiencies by operating a limited number of platforms (originally only 737s) on the most profitable direct routes as opposed to flying Dash 8s to Wabush etc. Unless I'm flying to Calgary there is rarely a Westjet option.. Basically they offer a limited alternative. 

This is similar to how Ryanair and other discount airlines operate. If you remove the major airlines such as Air Canada and United then the low-cost alternatives would either become hub and spoke major airlines to fill the void or we would be left with the majority of routes unserviced..


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

The math for overbooking is a no-brainer, it's basically pure profit but since all airlines do it, it's already baked into prices. Airlines know that, say, for a 200 seat plane, on average 15 people will not show up or have to change last minute. They can also measure standard deviation, which lets say is 2. Therefore, within 3 x SDs, at least 11 people will not show up. Book 11 seats and 99% of the time, the 12th person will not show up. 11 seats x $500 (for example) = $5500. 1% of the time you have to compensate #12 when they do show up, well even if its $1000, you only pay that 1% of the time, so the cost is only $10. Even less money to compensate #13 if they show up. If you owned a business, and could charge $5500 more for a cost of $10, would you? Now the numbers are hypothetical and there is some additional math, but that is why overbooking is here to stay.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Most of those 15 people will just end up on another flight so.. it's more like a pay it forward scheme than pure profit.

I manage military air operations and you basically need to have buffers or expensive resources on standby to keep things moving smoothly. Any number of uncontrollable events will throw a wrench into the best of plans. Impacts very widely from a person getting delayed to a flight getting diverted to an entire airport or even continental airspace (think volcanic ash or 9/11) It's like trying to predict the weather or the market..

I'm impressed how well the airline industry manages to be honest. I doubt all flights are overbooked or there would be no buffer..


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Here's one closer to home:
*P.E.I. family's 10-year-old son bumped from overbooked Air Canada flight* (Apr 15, 2017)
A Stratford, P.E.I., family is speaking out after their 10-year-old-son was bumped from an Air Canada flight during their March Break vacation to Costa Rica... booked the trip back in August, but when they tried to pick their seats the day before they left for their flight from Charlottetown to Montreal, they couldn't get a seat for Cole... went to the Charlottetown Airport for some answers, only to be told the flight was overbooked... asked an Air Canada agent if she or another adult they were travelling with could give up their seat... "yes we could give up our seat, there would be no guarantee that the seat would go to my son," she said...agent told her that it was possible the seat would be given to a more frequent flyer...

family opted to book a flight for Cole and his father out of Moncton later that day, but when they arrived in Moncton, that flight was cancelled. The pair ended up being rerouted to Halifax to catch another connecting flight.

Doyle estimates the family spent at least an extra $1,000 to get their son to Costa Rica.
"We're spending hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for airline tickets, and we're not guaranteed a seat. *So my question is what in reality are we paying for?*"...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/p-e-i-family-s-10-year-old-son-bumped-from-overbooked-air-canada-flight-1.4071922

I guess a person is essentially paying for a lottery ticket - if you are lucky you will get a seat and all of your planning, expenses, booked vacation, etc. will not be for naught.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I was going to say what other option do they have? But on closer inspection Charlottetown is now serviced by Air Canada, Westjet, Sunwing and soon maybe even Delta. According to wiki, the number of airline passenger traffic at Charlottetown has nearly doubled in 10 years.

The aviation industry is booming in many parts of the world. I know the military is bleeding experienced personnel to both Canada and abroad. The universal language of the industry is English so there is a high demand. At the same time the margins are aparently pretty thin

In my experience, you're better to drive to the states and fly from there if you can. I'm not sure why but their flights are usually far cheaper. If you want to fly overseas you're best to get to a major hub that is serviced by foreign airlines. Canada heavily restricts their competition


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

re the PEI story. I hear lots of stories like that. IT's just not fair.
Does anyone know how AC decides who's bumped. Is it just a lottery? If you plunk down EXTRA money to also buy a seat when you buy a ticket ( that doesn't even sound rightl?) - as opposed to waiting til the "24-hour prior to check-in" lottery, are you "safe"?


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

My interp on this one was that there were no seats left to book when they got to their son. So the flight was overbooked but he was not technically bumped - risk #1 waiting for a seat rather than coughing up extra $ for a seat when you book.
Once you have a seat you are still at risk of getting 'bumped' - risk #2. Even to the point of when you are sitting in the seat as we have learned with United.

So it really is a lottery, and a ridiculous way to sell a service.

I don't know how AC ranks seats when they bump. I expect that AC members or whatever their elite are called get first priority, then by fare $ paid? You don't need to check in now so there is no time established as to when you arrived at the gate to use in culling the herd. Maybe the AC plane driver pulls seat numbers out of a hat?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

> Doyle says the family *opted* to book a flight for Cole and his father out of Moncton later that day, but when they arrived in Moncton, that flight was cancelled.





> Doyle says Air Canada offered them an e-voucher that can be used for future travel and told them they can submit their expenses for *compensation*.


I interpret that they volunteered for the vouchers a day before and chose to be compensated to drive to Moncton, and ended up getting compensated to drive to Halifax when that flight was cancelled.

They could have waited until the actual flight and chances are some people wouldn't have shown or accepted the voucher. But they freaked out long before that process even started.. I'm guessing they rarely fly



> "I'm like crying in the back seat, and I don't have a plane. Like how do I get to where I'm going? I don't know if I'm even going to make it with my family," he said.


Crying over a flight to Costa Rica.. First world problems much? These people need a reality check. They could take a boat next time or ask some Syrian refugees for their perspective on this horrible situation


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

m3s said:


> They could have waited until the actual flight and chances are some people wouldn't have shown or accepted the voucher. But they freaked out long before that process even started.. I'm guessing they rarely fly


Well I wouldn't haul my family to the airport knowing the flight was overbooked and that my son didn't have a seat reserved. What are the chances he'll get lucky? What do we do when they don't have room and a parent with a ticket and seat then has to stay behind with them? A family holiday trip during the school break needs more certainty than standby. 



> Crying over a flight to Costa Rica.. First world problems much? These people need a reality check. They could take a boat next time or ask some Syrian refugees for their perspective on this horrible situation


In the context of this issue, that comment is irrelevant. I could as easily ask why you have access to a computer to post here and presumably pay a monthly fee for internet connection when that money could feed starving children in Africa. 
Have you never paid for a service only to find it would not be provided? Did you just shrug and go home without comment or compensation?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

jargey3000 said:


> re the PEI story. I hear lots of stories like that. IT's just not fair.
> Does anyone know how AC decides who's bumped. Is it just a lottery? If you plunk down EXTRA money to also buy a seat when you buy a ticket ( that doesn't even sound rightl?) - as opposed to waiting til the "24-hour prior to check-in" lottery, are you "safe"?


Unless you are a super frequent flyer, there are no gaurentee. When my spouse used to travel weekly, he got to the status, that he could essentially buy a ticket minutes before the cut off (pending the security rules) and bump off ANYONE in non business class. My ultra rich friend who was telling me that he just hit his 2 MILLION miles flown with an airline, can bump off pretty much Anypne in business case, he doesn't fly none business. When he is travelling with his family, who also have flight status, but not at his level, they can bump 4 people in business class if they want. Fortunately, they are not like that, and plan their travels well in advance, so don't have to bump people. He has bumped people because he has been asked to travel at last minute for work. 

Being on both sides of the fence, I don't know what to think. I understand if you are flying that often, there is a reason and these people actually make up a large percentage of their revenues, as they tend to be airline loyal, because they receive perks. They also know they occasionally traveller, though more of them on the plane, are cost concious, and not brand loyal. 

I do think they need a much better system of how they bump people though. I remember I was travelling for work, and they tried to split ip a young girl (about 10 or 11) from her mother how was heading to some sort of competition. It was a domestic flight, and the two were quite upset. I did volunteer to give my seat to the girl if I could get the next flight out (only 2 hours later). They moved me to business class for my compensation. I personally don't think they should EVER split up kids. 

We had the similar thing happen last week when trying to get home from vacation. Due to 5 screw ups from the airline, we missed out connector flight home. They couldn't get us home all together for 3 nights. Yes, three. They said they could fly us home individually in two days. There was no way I would leave my children to fly them selves and do customs without an adult. This was Seattle to Calgary, so there were many options. The CSR who was in charged of rebooking people, was poorly trained and made it so much worse. When I told her leaving my children alone was not acceptable, I told her, 2-2 or 3-1, would work but not 1-1-2, she couldn't understand why. I asaid because there needs to be an adult with the kids at all times. Here was the remains of the conversation

CSR 'well, I don't know. What do you want me to do then'. 
Spouse: we would like you to find us a way to get us home where the yound children are travelling alone
CSR: blink blink, ummmm, we don't have another flight until tommorrow night and it's full
ME: well, can bump someone
CSR: no, we don't do that (If this we
As after the united flight, I would have said yeah righ)
ME: Is there another airline?
CSR: ummm, yes, but we're not supposed to book them without aruthorization
ME: please go get the authorization
CSR: we have to make sure we have used all our options first, and fly this airline
ME: okay, what other options them
CSR: I am not sure, maybe non direct, another route 
ME: okay, we will work with that. What if we take an alternative route, what routes do you have
CSR: what do you recommend
(Spouse and kids trying not to groan)
SPOUSE and ME: some major airports that have connector to calgary or are at least close, how about Vancouver, Edmonton, or maybe Denver.? Though Vancouver is the best bet
CSR: there's a flight first thing to Vancouver for all 4 of you at 8am
ME: great, let's do that, then what's the plans to calgary
CSR: blink blink, What do mean?
ME: What flight do we get home on from Vancouver to Calgary
CSR: ummm, well can't you take a ferry or something to calgary.
ME: (turns around, takes 11 deep breaths, shakes my head as my kids are stunned). NO, it will,be very difficult to take a ferry though the mountains, perhaps a canoe, or kayak at some parts, the. We hit prairie
DAUGHTER: WE HAVE TO PORTAGE! That's so hard, how will we do that with luggage (she was quite serious)
CSR: sooooo, no water, can you drive 
ME: I can drive, but I would been just as able to dive from Seattle, since it's only a couple hour more. I would like to take the mode of transportation I planned which is plane. I know there are many flights that leave Vancouver even if not on your airline. I would like you to book us on one of them. I have the solution, but you seem to have the authority and access to the compter, so I need your help to make this happen. 
CSR: We can have you on a flight from Vancouver to Calgary at 10.
ME: I don't believe that is enough time, which was one of the causes that we are here. We need to do immigration in Vancouver, and I don't want to miss the flight again. That only gives us an hour to get through everything. Do you have something later.
CSR: I was just trying to minimize your stay. There is a flight at 11am
ME: I appreciate that you are trying to minimize, but if we miss our flight AGAIN, which is highly likely, then that would be worst, wouldn't it.
CSR: Yeah, here's your tickets.

This was just the highlights of the incompetence. Don't get me started about our luggage which arrived few days later, the hotel mishap, the meal vouchers, the five events cause by the airline which if anyone of them had listen to my suggestion, would have resulted in me getting home on time. Each of those had a similar conversations.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

m3s said:


> They could have waited until the actual flight and chances are some people wouldn't have shown or accepted the voucher. But they freaked out long before that process even started.. I'm guessing they rarely fly
> 
> 
> Crying over a flight to Costa Rica.. First world problems much? These people need a reality check. They could take a boat next time or ask some Syrian refugees for their perspective on this horrible situation


Well, as my story above, we fly a lot and though I didn't freak out at the b ginning, I suspected we were going to miss our flight. I inform the different agents my concer, with some options to try an mitigate. They told me not to worry. I figured though I have flown a lot, they are the experts. I spoke to five different people at different stages of our travel. I was pretty calm, but more inquiring. Only to be told, don't worry they know your are coming, you will fine if you hurry. Well, as my family SPRINTED across the terminal and I heard them close the door for our 915 flight at 905 as the clock turn 906 when we arrived, we were NOT compensated in any way what so ever. We received a meal ticket after all places were closed, and they did us a favour by putting us in a hotel for 5 hours. 

In regards to first world problems. I am greatful every day for first world problems, but first world problems are mutually exclusive from these other problems you list. I never understood this logic. 'I am annoyed with something that I think is unfair' So,even else, you have no right to be annoyed because sther is more suffering from someone else in the world, and they would be happy to be in your situation. There is no relevance to it. 

I do my part to try and make the world a better place, doesn't mean that i am not allowed to have enjoyment or complain. 

Would it be okay if the person who missed their flight was a child volunteering to dig ditches in Costco rica. Does that make the complaint more valid? Perhaps the family doesn't ever go on vacation, and this is their one time? I think making comparisons based on how horrid the world could be doesn't do anyone any favours.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

m3s said:


> I think this might be a case of "be careful what you wish for"
> 
> What could the alternative look like? Increased ticket prices due to empty seats and/or less tolerance on missed flights policies
> 
> Currently people who get "lost" in the terminal or arrive late get "re-accomodated" on the next flight. Free of cost. People miss their flight or connection everyday for an endless number of reasons. Rather than have the CSR try to determine what is an acceptable reason, the current policy is just to issue a new ticket immediately. Chances are, someone will miss that flight anyways and there will be an available seat..


Very good points. Maybe the problem isn't over-booking but implementation method. For example, how about some rules such as:

1. Don't bump a person if there are family members travelling with them
2. Must first offer a *cash* incentive to volunteers willing to abandon the flight
3. Don't bump a person who has already been bumped in the last 5 years

Could the over booking system be made into something more fair?

#1 is because coordinating multiple people is more difficult, and a big inconvenience
#2 because cash is much more attractive than vouchers that only cover base fare and have blackout periods
#3 is to keep it fair and minimize the inconvenience


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

Can't they give some weight to WHEN the ticket was bought? Someone buying 6 months out should get a bit more priority than someone buying a week before a flight? That make too much sense? at least it would eliminate some of the lottery effect.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> In the context of this issue, that comment is irrelevant. I could as easily ask why you have access to a computer to post here and presumably pay a monthly fee for internet connection when that money could feed starving children in Africa.
> Have you never paid for a service only to find it would not be provided? Did you just shrug and go home without comment or compensation?


I haven't complained to CBC that I had to go through the stress and agony of driving back to the store to have my computer or modem fixed, even though it wasn't actually broken yet, I just had a suspicion that it was going to break but they replaced it anyways because I requested them to and then the second computer was even worse and I had to drive back again. In the end I got working computer and compensation, I'm just upset about the hassle itself.. that is only my opinion



Plugging Along said:


> Only to be told, don't worry they know your are coming, you will fine if you hurry. Well, as my family SPRINTED across the terminal and I heard them close the door for our 915 flight at 905 as the clock turn 906 when we arrived, we were NOT compensated in any way what so ever. We received a meal ticket after all places were closed, and they did us a favour by putting us in a hotel for 5 hours.


Yes they have to shut the door at some point and 10 minutes sounds pretty late as they must do cross checks etc before taxiing. I've found that some airlines manage the boarding and scheduling much better than others but that is only conjecture. You say you received no compensation what so ever but you got another flight free, a free hotel and meal vouchers? *Realize if they outlaw overbooking flights you would be stranded with no automatic free flight!*



james4beach said:


> Very good points. Maybe the problem isn't over-booking but implementation method. For example, how about some rules such as:
> 
> 1. Don't bump a person if there are family members travelling with them
> 2. Must first offer a *cash* incentive to volunteers willing to abandon the flight
> 3. Don't bump a person who has already been bumped in the last 5 years


I believe 1 is already common and reasonable. If the PEI family had actually waited until their flight they could have argued that they were flying together, and the CSR should have bumped someone else.

The vouchers are fairly popular already. I have received $800 from AC twice along with hotel and meals on top on a free flight of my choice to the destination. This voucher is nearly as good as cash because it is transferable.. you can book anyone with it.

I believe they already select people based on their frequent flyer status. They are typically bumping people who have never flown with this airline before or who booked on some random discount website etc


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Very good points. Maybe the problem isn't over-booking but implementation method. For example, how about some rules such as:
> 
> 1. Don't bump a person if there are family members travelling with them
> 2. Must first offer a *cash* incentive to volunteers willing to abandon the flight
> ...


It would be nice for them to be more transparent. Fair and onconvience is a matter of opinion though. 
1. Single travellers would be easier to rebook. This might not be fair thug because they may be business travellers, what is more important. I personally don't think children should ever be bumped, this was even when I didn't have kids 
2. They told me no cash, and ended up giving me a $12 meal ticket for places not even open.
3. I think any time you bump someone, it is inconvient, I think volunteering for higher amounts would be a good way for customers to decide how much is their inconvience worth. This might make airlines think twice in their overbooking policies. 

It also might be hard to track who has been bumped. 



jargey3000 said:


> Can't they give some weight to WHEN the ticket was bought? Someone buying 6 months out should get a bit more priority than someone buying a week before a flight? That make too much sense? at least it would eliminate some of the lottery effect.


I do think this is one of the considerations, plus the cost of the fare. Full fare doesn't get bumped as much.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

m3s said:


> Yes they have to shut the door at some point and 10 minutes sounds pretty late as they must do cross checks etc before taxiing. I've found that some airlines manage the boarding and scheduling much better than others but that is only conjecture. You say you received no compensation what so ever but you got another flight free, a free hotel and meal vouchers? *Realize if they outlaw overbooking flights you would be stranded with no automatic free flight!*
> 
> 
> I believe 1 is already common and reasonable. If the PEI family had actually waited until their flight they could have argued that they were flying together, and the CSR should have bumped someone else


I actually asked when we booked the original flight, and asked if a 45 minute connector was reasonable. The AIRLINE said yes, don't worry. I didn't want to complain on something that might happen, and they are supposed to know more than me. If I missed it because of me, then I would have shut up and lived with it. Not to mention the other 4 things we tried to mitigate with, when they told me don't worry, you will make it. 

NO! It was not compensation. I did not go ont he flight that was intended, they provided a replacement flight, actually two. This is not compensation to get back to the destination I planned for. Instead, I paid more so I wouldn't have to do so many stop overs. By your logic, if they made me take 10 flights to get home, where it should have taken me one, then I was compensated ten times. it is well known that people pay more for less connectors, I paid the same amount for more connector. The hotel was also NOT compensation, there errors forcedmy family to stay an extra night. In fact there was a flight out there with another airline that night, they didn't want to put us on. I would have given my 5 hours at the hotel to take that. I am not sure how that is comepensation. Oh, and the meal voucher, by the time she got it printer, even though I asked right away if could feed my kids and she said no, and because she didn't know geopgraphy and took along time to figure out how to get us home, we could use them except at Starbucks. Given people vouchers at night, when they have been travelling all day, and you can only buy crappy muffins and caffeinated drinks doesn't help. I did manage to buy use an caffeine free ice tea each, one fruit cup (everything else was sold), 2 loafs, a granola bag, and a bag of moon cheese (Who knew) to feed my girls dinner. The sandwiches and real food were out. 

I wasted an extra day where both my spouse and I couldn't work, my spouse as a contracterdid not get paid, and I used an extra vacation day to cover their mistake or not get paid. 

Compensation to provided some thing more than what was promised. I think your example is off. I had to take additional connectors to get to my original destination, did not get food. I would have happily stayed in the airport if they would have given use the cash equivalent. I didn't have toiletries, clothing or anything. I could have just had my girls sleep on the chair. Nope, not an option.

I would be happy to pay for a flight if I missed it because it was my fault. These freebies you talk about, are because the airline screwed up. I am much worst off than if I made my connector. I have never missed a flight because of something I did. I think airlines should make people pay for that.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

If the CSR had to determine who was at fault whenever someone missed a flight or connection then there would be long lineups as the CSRs listen to all the stories about dogs eating tickets and phantom signs in the terminal and how it was impossible to make it in time etc etc. Whether someone could make a connection or not is subjective. This is why for simplicity sake they just immediately rebook you for free whether you got a flat tire on the way to the airport or got lost in the bathroom.

They didn't offer compensation in the form of a voucher because you were not bumped from the flight but rather missed the flight. They rebooked you last minute for free, which is actually what creates overbooking scenarios. If overbooking was not the norm, then you would likely have to pay again when you miss a flight regardless of the reason. You paid for the flight at x time and you did not make it. The vouchers are offered when someone does not board a flight they paid for and were ready to board


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

m3s said:


> If the CSR had to determine who was at fault whenever someone missed a flight or connection then there would be long lineups as the CSRs listen to all the stories about dogs eating tickets and phantom signs in the terminal and how it was impossible to make it in time etc etc. Whether someone could make a connection or not is subjective. This is why for simplicity sake they just immediately rebook you for free whether you got a flat tire on the way to the airport or got lost in the bathroom.
> 
> They didn't offer compensation in the form of a voucher because you were not bumped from the flight but rather missed the flight. They rebooked you last minute for free, which is actually what creates overbooking scenarios. If overbooking was not the norm, then you would likely have to pay again when you miss a flight regardless of the reason. You paid for the flight at x time and you did not make it. The vouchers are offered when someone does not board a flight they paid for and were ready to board


My point is, the airline system is seriously flawed.

You are right, I could not possible imagining the CSR showing any ability to critically think and determine whose fault it is when she couldn't even figure out how to get me hoe. I would have been less frustrated if she actually knew where certain planes flew, that you can't take a ferry from Vancouver to Canada. Perhaps, if she didn't offer the first solution of splitting up my young kids to fly and stay by them selves. Perhaps when I first arrive at 9:10 at the Customer service rebooking, and asked if we could get a meal voucher right away, so my kids could eat before they closed and she said it would only take minute, she could have shown some empathy and given it. Instead, she said it wouldn't take long. How was supposed to know that she didn't know geopgrahy or how to rebook a new route. 

Perhaps, when I asked the first person at airline at checking, if we could move up in the plane (not business class) but just further becaus our row number was high. Explaining that I was concerned about a short connector. I even said I was to split us up a bit. She said don't worry. When we board d, and I decisovered not only are we back at the plane but in the last row, could they help us disembark faster. I suggested ifthey could make an announcing to let us through (I have heard these announcement before) or perhaps ask some people to sit down. The two both told me not to worry, they know you are coming. Or perhaps, when I started asking passengers to let us through, I was polite, and people were starting to move, then the FA said, mam, please you will have to wait. Don't worry, they know you are coming. Or when I ask as we neared the front if they could call operations. The other fa said, don't worry you are close, they know you are coming. 

If anyone of these 5 points, where there wasn't a problem yet, but I did offer a potential mitigation, if it only saved me the ONE minute where the closed the gate, I would have made it. Then a CSR would not had to determine whether I was at fault or both, nor tried to feebly rebook, nor would they have taken days to find my luggage, and many other things.

I am surprised that people think it's okay to be incompetent and provide no service. I spent much of my career doing operational continuous improvement and customer service. It's things li,e this that sink companies. Poorly run companies spend a lot of money redoing work or remediation get. The whole idea is to do it right the first time, will save a lot more money and keep people happier. 

Honestly, if felt that paying more would get me better service I would do it. When I travelled more, I didn't get the cheapest, and flew direct where schedules permit. If they ran an efficient airline, and didn't over book, and charge for all the tickets, but did right in terms of their connections etc, they would save a lot more money. I worked I. The transportation industry for years, not air, but similar ideas.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

While this is a welcome change, will this change in policy work in a situation of overbooking for one famous US airline?

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/04/16/united-staff-cant-take-seats-of-boarded-passengers.html



> United Airlines, which is reviewing its policies after the violent removal of a passenger from a flight last week, says it will no longer allow employees to take the place of civilian passengers who have already boarded overbooked flights.
> 
> “*We issued an updated policy to make sure crews travelling on our aircraft are booked at least 60 minutes prior to departure,” *a spokesperson, MS, said Sunday. “This is one of our initial steps in a review of our policies.” ...


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> Unless you are a super frequent flyer, there are no gaurentee.


Or you possess the CIBC AVION credit card.. 



> I do think they need a much better system of how they bump people though. I remember I was travelling for work,* and they tried to split ip a young girl (about 10 or 11) from her mother how was heading to some sort of competition. * It was a domestic flight, and the two were quite upset. I did volunteer to give my seat to the girl if I could get the next flight out (only 2 hours later). They moved me to business class for my compensation. I* personally don't think they should EVER split up kids. *


Parents should never allow the airlines to split up kids seats from their parents. 

Emergencies on the plane can happen, even a "Hard landing"/crash that AC experienced a couple of winters ago due to pilot error.

These things do happen, so there is always a risk. In an emergency the last thing you want is to not have your child sitting next to you, but with a couple of strangers that may or may not have the child's safety in mind.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

m3s said:


> I was going to say what other option do they have? But on closer inspection Charlottetown is now serviced by Air Canada, Westjet, Sunwing and soon maybe even Delta. According to wiki, the number of airline passenger traffic at Charlottetown has nearly doubled in 10 years.


Question is ... is AC the only one flying there year round?

As an example, WestJet as well as Sunwing are listed as flying out of the Windsor airport but as WestJet's seasonal service has not started yet - one can't find Windsor as a destination airport at the moment on their web site.




m3s said:


> In my experience, you're better to drive to the states and fly from there if you can. I'm not sure why but their flights are usually far cheaper. If you want to fly overseas you're best to get to a major hub that is serviced by foreign airlines. Canada heavily restricts their competition


YMMV ... my friends have done well this way where except once, I've found better deals or connections for pretty much the same price.

As for some of the factors ...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...ping-to-catch-cheaper-flights/article4584508/


Cheers


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

carverman said:


> Or you possess the CIBC AVION credit card..
> 
> 
> Parents should never allow the airlines to split up kids seats from their parents.
> ...


We have an Avion , no gaurentee.

Good point about the emegirls bench. When the CSR tried to splite my girls upwithput us, I refuse. I was think of them trying to get through the airport and customs without me. I didn't even think abou if there was an emergency on the plane. I am still stunned she suggests it, but not as stunned as when she suggested a ferry from Vancouver to calgary. 

I really hope that the airline industry takes a look at this, and thinks about more efficient ways to operate.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

We could probably add a new incident to this thread every day. 

I have not used Air Canada for years and would walk before I would ever use them (for reasons that are another story).

The recent tales of recurring screwups and poor customer service just reinforce the decision I made years ago.

_With airline bumping a hot topic these days, CBC News has heard from many Canadians wanting to share their own sagas. Vicki Russell's story stood out. She missed a $10,000 dream cruise of the Galapagos Islands because she was bumped from an overbooked Air Canada flight: _ http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-canada-bumping-overbooked-flight-galapagos-1.4077645


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Who do you use in place of Air Canada? For many that would mean driving to the US to fly United or severely restricting travel

I plan things for a living and anyone who plans something as crucial as a $10,000 cruise that close to a flight is asking for it. Regardless of overbooking, flights are not guaranteed and never will be. Because weather.

Why not spend a day on location to relax and get acclimated etc. A recurring trend seems to be that these people booked through discount agents and didn't read the fine print. She also got rebooked on another cruise and $800 voucher for a $400 flight.. woe is me!

For the record I'm a frequent flyer but I also opt to drive whenever humanly possible. Airlines are so heavily regulated they're all about the same


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I do planning for a living too and risk assessment on plans. It's a tough call though. I have been in the situation where i have arrived the same day as the cruise started and it was stressful. I would normally like to stay over night to prevent this, but sometimes my scheduling prevents me to do so. How far do we book in advance due to airline operational issues.? 

I wanted to come home on my most recent trip on the Sunday, as I had an important meeting on Wednesday, there was nothing available Saturday or Sunday, so I booked Monday. They screwed up, hence missing our flight, and the originally rebook, the CSR wanted to send me home on Thursday night. Maybe I could have come home the week before, cutting what often is a 9 day vacation to 6 days. That doesn't make sense to me either. 

Maybe the person didn't have enough vacation days or couldn't leave during a certain time, which why the flight was so tight. So is the alternative never book something so tight because the airlines overbook so often? 

I think it greats that the person got to rebook on the cruise, that was the travel agency, who was showing great customer service to solve a problem that they didn't cause. The $800 on its own, would not been enough if the agency didn't step up. I feel the airline should have stepped up. 

You are right though, I don't know what the alternatives are, as I don't think there many good airlines at all.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

m3s said:


> Who do you use in place of Air Canada? For many that would mean driving to the US to fly United or severely restricting travel ...


I suspect people are going to be happy thinking about United as a replacement. 




m3s said:


> .... Regardless of overbooking, flights are not guaranteed and never will be. Because weather.


True.




Plugging Along said:


> m3s said:
> 
> 
> > .... Why not spend a day on location to relax and get acclimated etc. A recurring trend seems to be that these people booked through discount agents and didn't read the fine print. She also got rebooked on another cruise and $800 voucher for a $400 flight.. woe is me!
> ...


AC looks like they could have done a lot better.

There does not sound like there was any sort of announcement/asking for volunteers. It seems to bizarre to be questioning the validity of a ticket at the gate, after checking luggage and issuing a boarding pass.

The lack of concern is also strange as usually the flights I haven't made or there were problems with - the check in desk or the gate dealt with. (Maybe I am just lucky. :biggrin: )

I have seen really good and really bad from both passengers as well as airline staff.


Cheers


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Just volunteered to bump myself from an overbooked Air Canada flight

Got upgraded to 1A and $400CAD cheque mailed to my address of choice for "denied boarding compensation" This is better than the previous deal of e-vouchers that expire after 1 year IIRC. I have e-upgrades to burn before end Feb and lounge access already but worth asking for in this situation, there was no room to upgrade on my original flight

It was either 4 hrs in Winnipeg or 4 hours bottomless beer so.. I like Air Canada's overbooking policy


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