# Your household transportation costs



## Johnny199r (May 20, 2014)

It seems to me a really big cost saver is cutting down on transportation costs. Moving from a two vehicle household to a one vehicle household results in huge cost savings. Likewise, if you're in a position of not needing a vehicle at all, the savings are even bigger.

I've really gotten into riding my bicycle the last few years. My spouse and I have one vehicle, a 2015 used honda civic which we paid cash for several year ago. I bike to work from April-Nov (I stop when the snow comes) and she bikes during the summer to work.

I also have a grocery store that opened up next door to my apartment building that I walk to all the time instead of driving to a grocery store.

Anyone want to share their personal experiences/tips for saving on transportation costs?


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

Johnny199r said:


> It seems to me a really big cost saver is cutting down on transportation costs. Moving from a two vehicle household to a one vehicle household results in huge cost savings. Likewise, if you're in a position of not needing a vehicle at all, the savings are even bigger.
> 
> I've really gotten into riding my bicycle the last few years. My spouse and I have one vehicle, a 2015 used honda civic which we paid cash for several year ago. I bike to work from April-Nov (I stop when the snow comes) and she bikes during the summer to work.
> 
> ...


It goes without saying that if you can forgo owning a car and don't have to commute or can cycle or walk then you are saving a lot of money. I started cycling to work like you , not everyday but mist days and one year I was able to do it well into December. I loved it, only really struggled in the humid summer days when it was over 35c. We had shower facilities at work which meant after a cool down at my desk I was able to freshen up and smell respectable. I only regretted that it took me 10 years to clue in that it wasn't such a big deal here in Canada. I say that 'cos I used to cycle into work in Bristol UK when I was younger and Bristol is a hilly city.
I also have a supermarket with a 10min walk so I often toy with the idea of ditching the car altogether but I'm just not there yet and my good lady drives 6 hours away to visit her family and whilst she has taken the train, rented a car or flown Porter it is sadly still way cheaper and convenient to drive our own VW.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

If you have no kids and live downtown in a big city, great. For me, I have had a vehicle (or two) my entire adult life and will continue to do so. It is not that expensive in the grand scheme of things, and you only have so much time in this world - I'm not spending what limited time I have being inconvenienced in getting around and accomplishing things in life. I don't have two giant vehicles, mind you, but I would rather have a small four door car than a bicycle, although I have several bicycles too. Bicycles for commuting is also nearly fully impractical most of the time for me, although not all of the time.


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## AlwaysMissingTheBoat (8 mo ago)

My wife and I went from two vehicles to one after I started working from home several years ago. It's been a big cost saver and rarely poses any headaches. Exceptions would be a few times a year when the vehicle has to go in for service and if the dog needs a veterinary appt. during the workday, but we make it happen.


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## Johnny199r (May 20, 2014)

AlwaysMissingTheBoat said:


> My wife and I went from two vehicles to one after I started working from home several years ago. It's been a big cost saver and rarely poses any headaches. Exceptions would be a few times a year when the vehicle has to go in for service and if the dog needs a veterinary appt. during the workday, but we make it happen.


I find having to take an uber a couple of times a year in that situation not that big of a deal and well worth it.


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## Johnny199r (May 20, 2014)

Gothenburg83 said:


> It goes without saying that if you can forgo owning a car and don't have to commute or can cycle or walk then you are saving a lot of money. I started cycling to work like you , not everyday but mist days and one year I was able to do it well into December. I loved it, only really struggled in the humid summer days when it was over 35c. We had shower facilities at work which meant after a cool down at my desk I was able to freshen up and smell respectable. I only regretted that it took me 10 years to clue in that it wasn't such a big deal here in Canada. I say that 'cos I used to cycle into work in Bristol UK when I was younger and Bristol is a hilly city.
> I also have a supermarket with a 10min walk so I often toy with the idea of ditching the car altogether but I'm just not there yet and my good lady drives 6 hours away to visit her family and whilst she has taken the train, rented a car or flown Porter it is sadly still way cheaper and convenient to drive our own VW.


I'm much happier biking to work, rather than driving. The cost savings are secondary. I like enjoying the outdoors, staying fit, and not getting angry sitting in traffic. I might try to extend my cycling season some day, but I live in a harsher climate (Winnipeg) and haven't committed to winter cycling yet.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

When we retired we decided to cut down to one vehicle. Not because of financial reasons but because we did not want the hassle of owning and operating two vehicles. And...we moved from a home to a rental condo with one parking space. It was very convenient to our local rapid transit system.

Our plan was to simply rent a car for any of those times when we required two vehicles. That day never came over a period of four years. We never rented once at home. The other issue was that we were out of the country for four-five months a year. Our only vehicle got substantially less km's than it did prior to retirement.

When we lived in downtown Toronto we did not bother owning a car. It was a millstone. We frequently rented on on a weekend special. That rental cost was considerably less that what we would have paid for the parking space let alone depreciation, insurance, and upkeep on a vehicle. We also used our bikes. 

My son moved to Toronto. He is about to sell his car for the same reason...they live in Kensington. Blocks from good public transportation.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

Johnny199r said:


> I'm much happier biking to work, rather than driving. The cost savings are secondary. I like enjoying the outdoors, staying fit, and not getting angry sitting in traffic. I might try to extend my cycling season some day, but I live in a harsher climate (Winnipeg) and haven't committed to winter cycling yet.


Well done you, if I lived in Winnipeg my mosquito attracting bod would never go outdoors. 😂


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

Gothenburg83 said:


> Well done you, if I lived in Winnipeg my mosquito attracting bod would never go outdoors. 😂
> [/QUOT





Johnny199r said:


> I'm much happier biking to work, rather than driving. The cost savings are secondary. I like enjoying the outdoors, staying fit, and not getting angry sitting in traffic. I might try to extend my cycling season some day, but I live in a harsher climate (Winnipeg) and haven't committed to winter cycling yet.


I also felt good when I got to work after going on the bike, getting my my wife to bike to work and admit she felt better- well ~not so much


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## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

When you retire a car is not a big expense. I only rack up ~ 5,000 km per year. oil & gas is < $900


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Gothenburg83 said:


> It goes without saying that if you can forgo owning a car and don't have to commute or can cycle or walk then you are saving a lot of money. I started cycling to work like you , not everyday but mist days and one year I was able to do it well into December. I loved it, only really struggled in the humid summer days when it was over 35c. We had shower facilities at work which meant after a cool down at my desk I was able to freshen up and smell respectable. I only regretted that it took me 10 years to clue in that it wasn't such a big deal here in Canada. I say that 'cos I used to cycle into work in Bristol UK when I was younger and Bristol is a hilly city.
> I also have a supermarket with a 10min walk so I often toy with the idea of ditching the car altogether but I'm just not there yet and my good lady drives 6 hours away to visit her family and whilst she has taken the train, rented a car or flown Porter it is sadly still way cheaper and convenient to drive our own VW.


You can get a pretty sweet ebike for about the cost of keeping a car on the road for 1 year (or less). That might make it more appealing to use in a wider range of weather conditions (ie, if you don't want to be a sweaty mess when you arrive at your destination).


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Jimmy said:


> When you retire a car is not a big expense. I only rack up ~ 5,000 km per year. oil & gas is < $900


Insurance and depreciation too!


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

Two young adults still at home - sorta- and wife and I in our suburban household. Wife's car is a little Prius hybrid theatre hobbies have her driving 600km some months. But that is about 35l on a busy month in gas. 

I still work 3 days at an office. 20km round trip. I drive a plug in hybrid Volt. and unless travelling for work on the road inspections, never use the gas engine. 100km range charges for about $1.70 overnight. In winter when colder I do plug in at the office.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

As a kid I lived in the countryside.

Now I'm the only one in my family living in a big city (Montreal). With wife and baby.

When I hear stories at family dinners, sometimes I feel like I'm saving so much time and money living in the city.

Lots of people in rural areas have two cars, which they use on a daily basis, which they change every 10 years or so, add to this all the maintenance and reparations, tires, oil changes, insurance, license, registration and obviously gas price if ICE... Wow.

I do own a car because each of our families live far away from Montreal, otherwise I would quickly get rid of the car.

Grocery store is at 2 minutes walk. Daycare is at 8 minutes walk. There's 3 drugstores within 6 minutes walk. There's tons of parks everywhere, I can't count, and one of the biggest being right in my backyard. What else do I need? Work is a bit far though, it takes me 35 minutes by bike, otherwise 45 minutes if I simply sit and chill in the bus. During peak hours, there's a bus every 2 minutes. Otherwise it's every 5-10 minutes. But anyways I mainly work from home. Also, bike and bus is so much better for mental health than being stuck in traffic!

For my daily life in Montreal, I spend between $100 and $400 a year for transportation. I spent between $600 and $1,000 a year when I was not working from home.

If I add the cost of the car, it's obviously much more even though we barely use it. Such a money drain.

Thinking about the people who buy a $20,000 car every 10 years, spend $700 a year on insurance, $300 a year on license and registration, average $500 a year on maintenance and reparations (including new tires once in a while), rides 15,000 km a year, that's probably 800 liters of gas, so about $1,500 in gas a year at current prices. That's about $5,000 a year for one car (including the cost of changing car every 10 years).


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes I've saved a lot of money by cutting down on transportation costs. That's why I live centrally in a city, so I can mainly walk, bicycle and use public transport. Similar to @MrBlackhill and I did all my errands and shopping today on foot. I use car shares and rental cars (usually Enterprise) for cars when I need them. The rentals cost me an average of $45 to $50/day which sounds high at first glance, but is much cheaper than owning a car.

My total household transportation costs are about $2000 per year and that includes public transit, car rentals, gas, parking, and occasional road trips and long distance outings.

Compare that to the baseline cost of owning a car, if I had one. In my province the car insurance alone averages $1800/year, then obviously you have to add gasoline, parking, maintenance and the cost of buying the car. That would be much higher than what I pay, and MrBlackhill estimated $5000/year above.

I've been doing this for about 15 years now and I find it's a very nice balance between not being stuck with the high costs of car ownership, while still giving me access to cars when I need them. The only problem I had in all these years was the pandemic, when rental cars became very hard to find in 2021-2022. It also wasn't great "sharing" these rental cars during the pandemic, so I had to get in the routine of disinfecting surfaces. Owning one's own car definitely has its advantages.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> Insurance and depreciation too!


Yeah, one has to look at the total cost of ownership, including purchase cost, maintenance, etc.



ian said:


> My son moved to Toronto. He is about to sell his car for the same reason...they live in Kensington. Blocks from good public transportation.


Great idea. I owned a car until I moved to Toronto, but that's when I decided to sell mine. He can also use various car-share programs in the city.

I probably would own a car if I lived in Winnipeg, though. It's a bit of a special case due to the winters... you don't want to have to depend on a bus at -25.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> You can get a pretty sweet ebike for about the cost of keeping a car on the road for 1 year (or less).


That's the route I'd likely take if I needed to get to work every day and lived in a little nicer climate.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrBlackhill said:


> Thinking about the people who buy a $20,000 car every 10 years, spend $700 a year on insurance, $300 a year on license and registration, average $500 a year on maintenance and reparations (including new tires once in a while), rides 15,000 km a year, that's probably 800 liters of gas, so about $1,500 in gas a year at current prices. That's about $5,000 a year for one car (including the cost of changing car every 10 years).


It is a fairly large expense and I think you underestimated the avg fuel costs, especially if it was a larger vehicle, like a truck.

While I do try to keep my vehicle costs down I honestly couldn't live (or wouldn't want to) be without one. For three seasons I can easily log 400-600km per week in out-of-city activities.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

A vehicle is pretty much essential in the Fraser Valley. I can't afford to live in Vancouver, or else I'd be working until I'm 80 (if I live that long). Even at $5000 a year I'm coming out well ahead. If you count bus fare, bike repairs and car rentals, you're probably saving less than $3000 year by not having a car.

I have cycled to work a couple of times when my car had issues, but it's not something I feel safe doing regularly. I could only really bike to work in the summer. My shifts end at 7:30 pm, so my evening commute is in the dark from roughly October to April. The roads here aren't designed with cyclists in mind, and drivers are less likely to notice you compared to drivers in Vancouver. Buses are only sporadic, requiring at least one transfer + walking. It would take 90 minutes to get to work by bus, compared to 15 minutes by car.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I am in awe at those without vehicles. We just increased added a third vehicle as our oldest just got their license. the insurance costs are staggering for a teenager. However, with both our kids being in extracurricular or appointments 4-10 times a week each, we put on upto 1000 km a week. A lot of it is dropping one off, then going back and getting the other, dropping them off, the pn driving back to the first location and then get the last one. This sometimes happens multiple times in the same day.

i actually hope we will cut down km by not having to do as many back and forth for pick ups and drops offs, and more Importantly, it should save us a lot of time and stress. We also have to leave work early to pick up the kids from school because they can’t get their activity on time. So, that should be worth the additional costs.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest said:


> It is a fairly large expense and I think you underestimated the avg fuel costs, especially if it was a larger vehicle, like a truck.
> 
> While I do try to keep my vehicle costs down I honestly couldn't live (or wouldn't want to) be without one. For three seasons I can easily log 400-600km per week in out-of-city activities.


I think the average vehicle costs about $7k per year to own and operate. People are very good at obscuring this fact from themselves.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> I am in awe at those without vehicles. We just increased added a third vehicle as our oldest just got their license. the insurance costs are staggering for a teenager. However, with both our kids being in extracurricular or appointments 4-10 times a week each, we put on upto 1000 km a week. A lot of it is dropping one off, then going back and getting the other, dropping them off, the pn driving back to the first location and then get the last one. This sometimes happens multiple times in the same day.
> 
> i actually hope we will cut down km by not having to do as many back and forth for pick ups and drops offs, and more Importantly, it should save us a lot of time and stress. We also have to leave work early to pick up the kids from school because they can’t get their activity on time. So, that should be worth the additional costs.


This is the disastrous thing about how we build cities in North America. In some countries, children as young as 11 or 12 would basically be solely responsible for shuttling themselves to and fro for all their extracurricular activities. That kind of independence is, I think, a good thing as it builds resiliency. In North America it is child abuse to leave your child to find their own way around their neighbourhood.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

cainvest said:


> It is a fairly large expense and I think you underestimated the avg fuel costs, especially if it was a larger vehicle, like a truck.


I purposely underestimated it so that no person with a highly fuel efficient ICE would tell me it cost them less. People telling me it cost them more proves my point about how expensive vehicle ownership is compared to living in a big city with efficient public transport and everything at a walking distance. And not only money saving but time saving when everything is at a walkable distance!



cainvest said:


> While I do try to keep my vehicle costs down I honestly couldn't live (or wouldn't want to) be without one. For three seasons I can easily log 400-600km per week in out-of-city activities.


I totally agree and understand this. Very few cities in Canada are designed for people, because in Canada we got so much space that we design cities for cars, which is not a good design. Big roads, big parkings, urban sprawl, big residential areas with no services, nothing at a walkable distance, etc. I totally understand that most people living in suburbs and small cities all prefer using their vehicles. (And obviously people in the countryside can't live without a vehicle, but we would expect people in small cities and suburbs to be able to) Even though those suburbs and small cities may have public transport, it's mostly inefficient. First, nothing is at a walkable or bikable distance. Second, it would take them 45 minutes in public transport compared to 15 minutes by car. It's definitely not like in well-designed big cities where most things are at a walkable or bikable distance and otherwise public transport is preferred and efficient, compared to taking the vehicle into the traffic and expensive parkings, if available.

The YouTube channel "Not Just Bikes" is a good critique of our poor city design in North America, compared to Dutch cities (and many other European cities). No wonder why we have so many vehicles and so much traffic, our cities are badly designed and there's no good alternative for most people.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

andrewf said:


> You can get a pretty sweet ebike for about the cost of keeping a car on the road for 1 year (or less). That might make it more appealing to use in a wider range of weather conditions (ie, if you don't want to be a sweaty mess when you arrive at your destination).


I am going to look into ebikes, the tech is so good now but I still have good legs and lungs. I was thinking I could do a retrofit on my existing bikes to reduce waste and not have a garage full of bikes and all that.
I have so far done zero research but if anyone has experience of retrofitting a motor and battery on a regular bike I would be grateful and interested in hearing about it. 
My intuition is that a retrofit solution would be a compromised solution , a bit less slick and a bit on the ugly side.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Most of Europe would fit inside of Canada.

Add up all the public transit from all the Euro countries and then consider the population that would use and financially support that transit.

Canada.....35 million compared to Europe ......746 million.

We need 700 million more people to make any valid comparisons.


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

How come they don't have bike racks at Costco?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

My wife has 10 grocery stores and delis on her shopping tour. She shops the discounts at each one and gets certain foods we prefer at each.

When she goes "shopping" it is a couple of hours of going from store to store.....coming home to unload, and then going off again in the other direction to shop some more. She buys in bulk all the time when sfuff is on sale and spends about $1,000 a month.

I couldn't imagine going without the vehicle. We could buy a used one but we don't need repair hassles either......so we just pay $1,000 a month for transportation costs and accept it as a cost of living expense.

Cost of food and transportation....$2,000 a month, which is manageable.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Zipper said:


> How come they don't have bike racks at Costco?


Actually I believe my Costco has a bike rack near the tire center.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Gothenburg83 said:


> I am going to look into ebikes, the tech is so good now but I still have good legs and lungs. I was thinking I could do a retrofit on my existing bikes to reduce waste and not have a garage full of bikes and all that.
> I have so far done zero research but if anyone has experience of retrofitting a motor and battery on a regular bike I would be grateful and interested in hearing about it.
> My intuition is that a retrofit solution would be a compromised solution , a bit less slick and a bit on the ugly side.


I think that's probably right. Ebikes don't tend to make people exercise less, as you tend to ride further and more often.

If you have a bike you like for exercise, you might want to leave it unmodified. And a good commuting bike tends to be a bit different. You'll want fenders, maybe some racks for paniers, etc.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

sags said:


> Most of Europe would fit inside of Canada.
> 
> Add up all the public transit from all the Euro countries and then consider the population that would use and financially support that transit.
> 
> ...


Most of Europe and most of Canada are wilderness. What is relevant is the populated areas. Canadian cities are denser than most US cities. Toronto is the densest urban area in North America based on some measures. Not as dense as some European cities, but dense enough to support transit.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I think the average vehicle costs about $7k per year to own and operate. People are very good at obscuring this fact from themselves.


We're at about $25/day, for 2 vehicles.
But we're pretty busy.

I did the math on getting rid of the second one and just using Uber/Taxis, and we'd be way behind.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrBlackhill said:


> I purposely underestimated it so that no person with a highly fuel efficient ICE would tell me it cost them less. People telling me it cost them more proves my point about how expensive vehicle ownership is compared to living in a big city with efficient public transport and everything at a walking distance.


By my estimate I passed my initial car purchase price with it's fuel costs last year but that took me 20 years to do. A less fuel efficient vehicle would have been much sooner especially with current fuel prices.



MrBlackhill said:


> And not only money saving but time saving when everything is at a walkable distance!


For time savings I'd say a car wins hands down, even if things are close by.



MrBlackhill said:


> I totally agree and understand this. Very few cities in Canada are designed for people, because in Canada we got so much space that we design cities for cars, which is not a good design.


Acutally we have a pretty good bike path layout in Winnipeg for many areas, though not highly maintained (cleaned) for the winter months. Also, many areas here have shopping centers with 2-3kms, easy walk/bike distance if you are so inclined.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

andrewf said:


> I think that's probably right. Ebikes don't tend to make people exercise less, as you tend to ride further and more often.
> 
> If you have a bike you like for exercise, you might want to leave it unmodified. And a good commuting bike tends to be a bit different. You'll want fenders, maybe some racks for paniers, etc.


I probably need to clarify that my commuting days are behind me. The move to an ebike would be as you say to hopefully precipitate more rides to different places to enjoy my new found freedom and yes a little further/more ambitious terrain would be the goal. The lady of the house is always reluctant at first and seemingly intimidated by even modest inclines. The ebike I think would tip the scales towards more adventures.
We recently went to Goderich and cycled the old train track towards Guelph. It was very pleasant and we both agreed over a cheeky pint that we should do it more often. That said we felt it next day and were early in bed that evening absolutely spent
I have all the accessories needed for my commuting adventures including lobster claw winter gloves and vented cycling pants but in all the years I cycled to work here and the UK I never used fenders ( mudguards) I let my racks and panniers take the worst of it.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> I think that's probably right. Ebikes don't tend to make people exercise less, as you tend to ride further and more often.


I see mixed use of e-bikes around the city. For some it might increase exercise a bit but for others it completely removes it.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Gothenburg83 said:


> I probably need to clarify that my commuting days are behind me. The move to an ebike would be as you say to hopefully precipitate more rides to different places to enjoy my new found freedom and yes a little further/more ambitious terrain would be the goal. The lady of the house is always reluctant at first and seemingly intimidated by even modest inclines. The ebike I think would tip the scales towards more adventures.
> We recently went to Goderich and cycled the old train track towards Guelph. It was very pleasant and we both agreed over a cheeky pint that we should do it more often. That said we felt it next day and were early in bed that evening absolutely spent
> I have all the accessories needed for my commuting adventures including lobster claw winter gloves and vented cycling pants but in all the years I cycled to work here and the UK I never used fenders ( mudguards) I let my racks and panniers take the worst of it.


Fenders and chain guards just make sense. More than cycling pants!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest said:


> I see mixed use of e-bikes around the city. For some it might increase exercise a bit but for others it completely removes it.


There are the throttle actuated bikes that are basically just motorcycles. The pedal assist variety is what I was referring to.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I think the average vehicle costs about $7k per year to own and operate. People are very good at obscuring this fact from themselves.


We have been the running the numbers, and it's pretty high. My spouse has a big @$$ truck that sucks alot of gas, I have a smaller Versa, which was really the nanny mobile, but good on gas, crap on the icy roads. We just added a 3rd beater for my kids. I have run the numbers over the years (mainly because I feel my spouse spends too much on transportation). Here's what I have found (this break down is more for me): 

Insurance - $2k for both, then we added our teenager as a part time that was $1400, then we added the third this weekend so another $1000 (it was lower because it was over 10 years old). This was also based that I am the primary driver on 2 cars, and not my teen, othersie they wanted another $3k instead $1. So $4500 for 3 vehicles, one being a pt teen

Registration $100 year/vehicle 

Depreciation: Based on our last 20 years of vehicles, I have found for our new, nicer vehicles is about $2.5k a year (we drive them at least 12-14 years from purchase, for used or cheaper new vehicles it's about $1.5k a year, I will use that for our new old vehicle. So that will be with three vehicles $5.5k a year. 

Maintenance: We are pretty lucky we have family who are master mechanics, it's usually basic maintenance, wear and tear (tires), and the occasion repair, maybe $500 each vehicle a year, more for the older ones. So $1500 average for the three. That will be a bit high now, hopefully, this new 2009 is reliable. 

Gas - Big @$$ truck is about $100 a week $5k year That's with him working at home, doing some of the pick ups and drop offs, and going out to hockey all around the city. 
My car - driving the small humans everywhere else and on occasion going out myself for groceries. Maybe $60 week, $3k year
New old car - Hoping this will take off some of the driving back and forth, so I will say it's covered in the numbers above. As a family we will most likely be doing less km overall. 
Total $8k a year

So looking at these number for 3 vehicles, we spend as a family close to $20k a year, so pretty close to your $7k. Wow, nice estimate from Andrew!


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> There are the throttle actuated bikes that are basically just motorcycles.


Yes, those completely remove exercise and I'm seeing a fair number of those being used. Great way to commute quickly though, they just fly by me on the bike path.



andrewf said:


> The pedal assist variety is what I was referring to.


Even those assist types, aka real e-bikes, can greatly cut down on exercise basically turning a cardio workout into light activity. I've ridden beside (and talked to) a number of them this past summer and it, depending on your setting, can be super easy to maintain 25 km/h.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Even those assist types, aka real e-bikes, can greatly cut down on exercise basically turning a cardio workout into light activity. I've ridden beside (and talked to) a number of them this past summer and it, depending on your setting, can be super easy to maintain 25 km/h.


They can, but for the people who use them that way, what would they have been doing instead? Most likely driving. So the riding might be lower intensity, but they are riding further and more often than they would have otherwise. There are studies that support this.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

andrewf said:


> Fenders and chain guards just make sense. More than cycling pants!


I don't disagree, the big sturdy no nonsense upright commuter bikes with hub gears with chain guards and now disc brakes totally make sense. Heafty front and rear racks, Big fixed LED lights with hub generators and all the wiring inside the sturdy frames are a thing of beauty , The blander the better is the rule in Europe. But that is for them, for illogical reasons its a not for me. Maybe when I mature


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

cainvest said:


> For time savings I'd say a car wins hands down, even if things are close by.


It depends on the density of the city and its design. I can leave my home by foot, go get my kid at the daycare, grab some wine, grab something at the drugstore, grab something at the grocery store and be back home 30-45 minutes later round-trip door-to-door.

I can't even count how many commerces there's within 1.5 km (15 minutes walk).

Daycare: 10+
Schools: 5
Parks: 10+
Drugstores: 5
Supermarkets: 5
Small grocery stores: 10+
Specialized (gourmet, bakery, pastry, pasta, butcher, etc): 10+
Coffee shops: 10+
Pubs, microbreweries: 10+
Restaurants: 10+
Alcohol, local wine, local beer: 5+
Cannabis shop: 1
Home improvement stores: 5
Clothing: 10+
Toys for kids: 2
Pets: 5
Bike shops: 5
Barber/Hairdresser: 10+

Not even an exhaustive list.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

andrewf said:


> They can, but for the people who use them that way, what would they have been doing instead? Most likely driving. So the riding might be lower intensity, but they are riding further and more often than they would have otherwise. There are studies that support this.


Ebikes have also opened up opportunities for folks who aren't hardcore cyclists or getting older to do cycling holiday in hilly places like Tuscany and southern France. A friend of mine had a great ebike holiday covering many kilometers along the canal du midi (Bordeaux to the med through Toulouse.) They are from the area and had done it before when they were much younger. The ebikes meant even in their 70's and with less than youthful knees they could relive their past and fondly remembered romantic trips. Bless!


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> People telling me it cost them more proves my point about how expensive vehicle ownership is compared to living in a big city with efficient public transport and everything at a walking distance. And not only money saving but time saving when everything is at a walkable distance!
> 
> I totally agree and understand this. Very few cities in Canada are designed for people, because in Canada we got so much space that we design cities for cars, which is not a good design. Big roads, big parkings, urban sprawl, big residential areas with no services, nothing at a walkable distance, etc. I totally understand that most people living in suburbs and small cities all prefer using their vehicles. (And obviously people in the countryside can't live without a vehicle, but we would expect people in small cities and suburbs to be able to) Even though those suburbs and small cities may have public transport, it's mostly inefficient. First, nothing is at a walkable or bikable distance. Second, it would take them 45 minutes in public transport compared to 15 minutes by car. It's definitely not like in well-designed big cities where most things are at a walkable or bikable distance and otherwise public transport is preferred and efficient, compared to taking the vehicle into the traffic and expensive parkings, if available.


I think the game charger is when you have kids, I can't imagine not having vehicles with kids, or even one vehicle if you have multiple kids. When they were younger, we still needed a vehicle for appointments and activities, but if I could get to the location in under 15 minutes, we didn't sign them up and even though we had them in one active activity, one creative, and girl guides (so three max), it was only 1 time a week per activity. I could have been probably taken them on the bus or walked because it was close enough, though I didn't. As the kids get older, there are less closer options as leagues and things move, and the one time a week soccer because 3 times if they are at a rec level, and up to 6 if they are in a completive level. They no longer play at local fields but larger centres across the city. We have to drive our oldest to one of the few indoor soccer centres 48km from our house weekly, her practices are in another community 13km away because that's where the kids play at this level, my youngest goes to her gym which moved from 6 km away to 20km 3 time a week, with special private lessons outside of city 16km away, I could have chosen the private instructor only 4 km away, but they were charged $70 a session weekly, whereas this little place outside of the city charges me $17 a time. So well worth the drive. Then I add schools,, though we purchased a house beside great school (they could walk to without crossing a street) we never went, it was the wrong fit for my kids. So they are in alternative schools with programs that suite them better up to 15km away. We did have a private school option which was only 4km, but the savings of $20k intuition was worth going further. Add if the kids want to be on a school team or after school activity, we need to pick them up, and usually drive them to their next one. In all cases, when there is public transportation, then it's at least 2 hours each way, and requires at least two transfers, but often 3, some being in sketchy areas. In a few of the cases, there is no bus at all. 

I realize that most of these are choices we made in what we wanted for our family and we can afford these things, but once kids get into higher level activities, having a vehicle is absolutely required in my city. 



sags said:


> My wife has 10 grocery stores and delis on her shopping tour. She shops the discounts at each one and gets certain foods we prefer at each.
> 
> When she goes "shopping" it is a couple of hours of going from store to store.....coming home to unload, and then going off again in the other direction to shop some more. She buys in bulk all the time when sfuff is on sale and spends about $1,000 a month.
> 
> ...


Good point that having a vehicle can provide savings in other areas. We are able to save in our groceries, as the closest grocery store within walking distance is about 20% more expensive than other Lowlaws (which we have to drive too), and since I buy alot of my stuff in bulk or as loss leaders from stores further such as Costco, wholesale butchers, and bargain produce retailers, it would be at least 40% more, and I would have to make more frequent trips than what I do now. I would say having a car, let's me save probably $400 a month, than not having any car.

My kids are at high level activities, and one of them takes semi private lessons from this small gym outside of of the city. At our gym, or even closer (if the option was around), it's about $50 more a lesson weekly, so that's another $200 a month we save. 

The biggest benefits we see are the opportunities that I am able to give my kids. They go to an alternative charter school that meets their needs much better than the local public (which we did try one of them), Private school would have been closer but at a price tag of more than $20k a year for each kid, though the private school did have bussing. The biggest benefit that everyone knows is the convenience. In our case, we would be on the bus all the time, I can do a 20 minute drive or 2.5 hour bus, so my time is worth a lot more.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrBlackhill said:


> It depends on the density of the city and its design. I can leave my home by foot, go get my kid at the daycare, grab some wine, grab something at the drugstore, grab something at the grocery store and be back home 30-45 minutes later round-trip door-to-door.


And typically still much faster in a car. Not saying you can't walk/cycle just a car is generally better time wise even when things are close by.

Question though ... how do you carry all those shopping items on a single trip? Say something like half a shopping cart worth of goods?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Most of Europe and most of Canada are wilderness. What is relevant is the populated areas. Canadian cities are denser than most US cities. Toronto is the densest urban area in North America based on some measures. Not as dense as some European cities, but dense enough to support transit.


By what measure is Toronto denser than NYC?


MrBlackhill said:


> It depends on the density of the city and its design. I can leave my home by foot, go get my kid at the daycare, grab some wine, grab something at the drugstore, grab something at the grocery store and be back home 30-45 minutes later round-trip door-to-door.
> 
> I can't even count how many commerces there's within 1.5 km (15 minutes walk).
> 
> ...


I find that hard to believe. Where is this?


really 1.5km rad is only 7km2, and you're telling me they have all that, and the population to support it?
Montreal has a density of about 900/km, so 6000 people, maybe 2-3k households are enough to support all that?

Heck 5 home depots alone would take up almost 1km2. 
I don't see how you can support 5 home improvement stores, in an area that small.

Either it's a lot of high density housing, to have a much higher than average population, which means fewer standalone homes, and lower demand for home improvement shops.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> By what measure is Toronto denser than NYC?








Toronto Solidifies Highest Density Ranking in North America | Newgeography.com







www.newgeography.com




.

NYC is very sprawly. Manhattan is denser than downtown Toronto. LA, as an urban area, is actually denser than NYC.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Montreal has a density of about 900/km, so 6000 people, maybe 2-3k households are enough to support all that?


Lots of neighbourhoods in Montreal are in excess of 5k per sqkm. The City of Toronto as a whole is >4400/sqkm, including some large parks/ravine areas.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> It depends on the density of the city and its design. I can leave my home by foot, go get my kid at the daycare, grab some wine, grab something at the drugstore, grab something at the grocery store and be back home 30-45 minutes later round-trip door-to-door.
> 
> I can't even count how many commerces there's within 1.5 km (15 minutes walk).
> 
> ...


Hmmmmm... definitely a different design than my community. I think even communities vary. Some areas in are city are very walkable, the ones in the more expensive areas are not, they just assume everyone will drive their gas guzzling SUV (which they are right). In fact, in our area, there has been a huge challenge with public school capacity some at 175%. The reason we found out, it was because it was a more affluent side of the city, and there were lots of private schools built, they assume parents would choose private school, and just didn't build new schools when the created new communities. One of the challenges in living in a nice area.

In our area within at 1.5 km or 15 min walk we have
Daycare: 0, though I think there are daycares, I know of 3 when my kids were little, everyone has nannies here
Schools - one public, and one catholic elementary only, though 3 preschools, which one has a good tobaggan hill, and the other has a gaga ball pit
Parks: 2, though we have a nice ravine
Drugstores: 1
Supermarkets: 1 
Small grocery stores: 0
Specialized (gourmet, bakery, pastry, pasta, butcher, etc): 0
Coffee shops: 1
Pubs, microbreweries: 1
Restaurants: 1
Alcohol, local wine, local beer:2
Cannabis shop: 2
Home improvement stores: 0
Clothing: 1 high end boutique that I would never buy anything from 
Toys for kids: 1 
Pets: 1
Bike shops: 0
Barber/Hairdresser: 1
Adding
Nail salon - 2
Community centre - `which has various activities including a ODR, we try to use this as much as we can but there isn't that much at the older ages. We were able to do soccer here when there were under 6.
A cycle bar at @$22 a spin class 
1 profession building - has a chiro, doctor, sleep clinic, massage, most cannot get into or they are actually crap. 
2 churches - that sometime run community events

Thing is when you live out in suburbia, and has kids you pretty much will be toting them around everywhere in a car. Also, the services around my area are either more expensive or very limited. Maybe we needed to simplify our choices, but I can't imagine living in walking distance.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I don't see how you can support 5 home improvement stores, in an area that small.


In an urban area, you wouldn't need 5 massive Home Depot size stores in that kind of density. You have smaller hardware stores like Home Hardware that are maybe 10-20k sqft and minimal parking, vs 140k sqft Home Depot with acres of parking.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> In an urban area, you wouldn't need 5 massive Home Depot size stores in that kind of density. You have smaller hardware stores like Home Hardware that are maybe 10-20k sqft and minimal parking, vs 140k sqft Home Depot with acres of parking.


But 1 Home hardware for every 400 households? All within a short walk of each other?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Lots of neighbourhoods in Montreal are in excess of 5k per sqkm. The City of Toronto as a whole is >4400/sqkm, including some large parks/ravine areas.


Yeah, not my kind of life. 

You'll note I did ask where this place is, and lacking specific data I went to the average data for the city.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> Hmmmmm... definitely a different design than my community. I think even communities vary. Some areas in are city are very walkable, the ones in the more expensive areas are not, they just assume everyone will drive their gas guzzling SUV (which they are right). In fact, in our area, there has been a huge challenge with public school capacity some at 175%. The reason we found out, it was because it was a more affluent side of the city, and there were lots of private schools built, they assume parents would choose private school, and just didn't build new schools when the created new communities. One of the challenges in living in a nice area.
> 
> In our area within at 1.5 km or 15 min walk we have
> Daycare: 0, though I think there are daycares, I know of 3 when my kids were little, everyone has nannies here
> ...


Wow. I was curious so I checked some of these against my neighbourhood (1.5 km radius).

Daycare: Hard to count. There are at least a few Montessori type places.
Parks: 8 + a few greenway/walking and biking path along naturalized water management creek.
Drugstores: 3 standalone, in addition to the 4 in the chain supermarkets (one I can jaywalk across the street to faster than driving).
Supermarkets: 4 major chains
Small grocery stores: 2 ethnic stores
Specialized (gourmet, bakery, pastry, pasta, butcher, etc): A bit fuzzy definition
Coffee shops: 1 Starbucks, but several TH/McDonalds/etc.
Pubs, microbreweries: 2-3
Restaurants: Haha, dozens
Alcohol, local wine, local beer: 2 liquor stores, 1 beer store, and 4 at grocery stores
Cannabis shop: not permitted in my city
Home improvement stores: 1 Home Depot
Clothing: 1 Marshalls, 1 Marks (plus Walmart and Joe Fresh)
Toys for kids: Babies R Us and Walmart
Pets: 3
Bike shops: 1
Barber/Hairdresser: ~10
Nail salon - 6
Community centre - 1 (library/gym/pool)
Gym - 1
Dentists, doctors, etc. - lots


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> But 1 Home hardware for every 400 households? All within a short walk of each other?


I think your math is wrong. The City of Montreal is around 4500/km2 as well. When you look at a the Census Metropolitan Area, it includes a lot of agricultural land, etc which skews the density. Even the City of London is over 900/km2, and by eyeball is about half agricultural land.





__





Loading…






en.wikipedia.org


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I think your math is wrong.


I don't think so.
I think my math is pretty decent, I think the lack of detail about what we're talking about is an issue.



> The City of Montreal is around 4500/km2 as well. When you look at a the Census Metropolitan Area, it includes a lot of agricultural land, etc which skews the density. Even the City of London is over 900/km2, and by eyeball is about half agricultural land.


Yes, lacking a specific location to focus on, I went to the census data.
That is why my first question is "what neighbourhood" are you talking about"











If you look at the actual census area, it's way more than 50% farmland


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## Johnny199r (May 20, 2014)

I went to Italy this summer and was in awe of not needing a vehicle and taking public transportation everywhere. It also dawned on me that you don’t see nearly as many overweight people there as you do in Canada for that reason as people walk everywhere.

I realize Canada has more challenges, but I would definitely go car free if I lived in Montreal or Toronto. I look forward to one day living in a city that is designed without the personal motor vehicle in mind.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Johnny199r said:


> I went to Italy this summer and was in awe of not needing a vehicle and taking public transportation everywhere. It also dawned on me that you don’t see nearly as many overweight people there as you do in Canada for that reason as people walk everywhere.
> 
> I realize Canada has more challenges, but I would definitely go car free if I lived in Montreal or Toronto. I look forward to one day living in a city that is designed without the personal motor vehicle in mind.


If I was stuck downtown, I'd go car free, I know several that effectively did.

Fine to visit, park the car and walk around, however I wouldn't want to live there, because on balance it really sucks.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

cainvest said:


> And typically still much faster in a car. Not saying you can't walk/cycle just a car is generally better time wise even when things are close by.
> 
> Question though ... how do you carry all those shopping items on a single trip? Say something like half a shopping cart worth of goods?


Old ladies get their groceries in Europe on bicycles

Heck some people travel on bicycles with all their camping gear. It's not rocket science 🤷‍♂️ You put some luggage on your bike and you go more often which also allows for fresher food and less preservatives in food

Americans have huge fridges and buy a lot of unhealthy processed foods so it would take a lot of lifestyle change


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

m3s said:


> Old ladies get their groceries in Europe on bicycles


Sure and I can walk to the river to get water ... not sure what your point is?
Just saying it's much faster (and easier) by car. This is especially true if I'm doing something like a Costco run buying dog food and bulk meats on sale. Could I walk or cycle to do this ... yes, but it's not worth my time or the hassle.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Sure and I can walk to the river to get water ... not sure what your point is?
> Just saying it's much faster (and easier) by car. This is especially true if I'm doing something like a Costco run buying dog food and bulk meats on sale. Could I walk or cycle to do this ... yes, but it's not worth my time or the hassle.


Yea our society is set up entirely for cars

In Europe you get your meat from the local butcher. There's no such thing as Costco or bulk as they just don't hoard like that. Houses, appliances and storage is all just smaller. Delivery model is probably the most efficient for goods.

The biggest problem for bicycles in Canada is the harsh winter. Better to go somewhere warm like the snowbirds do


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## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

Zipper said:


> How come they don't have bike racks at Costco?


I ran into this family at Costco. It's amazing what's possible if you can think outside the highway lines.

How this family of four transports itself and $900 worth of Costco groceries — all on one bike


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I don't think so.
> I think my math is pretty decent, I think the lack of detail about what we're talking about is an issue.
> 
> 
> ...


But you might as well say we shouldn't have grocery stores in Canada because the population density of 3/km2 wouldn't support it. You need to exclude the undeveloped land in these kinds of analyses. CMA is a statistical measure of limited use in characterizing the actual density of the built up area.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

fireseeker said:


> I ran into this family at Costco. It's amazing what's possible if you can think outside the highway lines.
> 
> How this family of four transports itself and $900 worth of Costco groceries — all on one bike


No way man

You need a $70k SUV with platinum protection off-road decals to haul a grocery cart worth of food

Scooters in Asia transport more than our SUVs


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

fireseeker said:


> I ran into this family at Costco. It's amazing what's possible if you can think outside the highway lines.
> 
> How this family of four transports itself and $900 worth of Costco groceries — all on one bike


You don't need anything so gimmicky as a tandem bike. You can use a cargo bike.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

The old European ladies just used saddle bags alongside the rear wheel. Seems to be pretty standard setup

Definitely helps with diet if you have to peddle all your food home


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> But you might as well say we shouldn't have grocery stores in Canada because the population density of 3/km2 wouldn't support it. You need to exclude the undeveloped land in these kinds of analyses. CMA is a statistical measure of limited use in characterizing the actual density of the built up area.


I did ask where he was talking about, repeatedly.
Lacking that data, you have to source it from somewhere.

And honestly for most of the country grocery stores don't make sense.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> You don't need anything so gimmicky as a tandem bike. You can use a cargo bike.


Just a bicycle trailer really ... I see many people doing this.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

m3s said:


> No way man
> 
> You need a $70k SUV with platinum protection off-road decals to haul a grocery cart worth of food


See ... now you are living the good life!


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

cainvest said:


> And typically still much faster in a car. Not saying you can't walk/cycle just a car is generally better time wise even when things are close by.


Not in the big dense cities because they are cities for people, not for cars. You'd waste time dealing with one-way roads, construction, no parking, you'd have to pay for parking. Sure the supermarkets have parking though, but otherwise there's no parking other than on the streets.




cainvest said:


> Question though ... how do you carry all those shopping items on a single trip? Say something like half a shopping cart worth of goods?


People living in dense cities aren't all doing their grocery shopping in one day for the whole week. Since it's super near and walkable they just go get what they need for a few days and they'll go back another day. Sometimes we have no more food and I check with my wife what do we want to eat, I go get the ingredients and 15 minutes later I'm back.

Some just bring two bags at a time. Many bring a shopping cart. People on bike have bags on their rear wheel and a backpack. Parents with a baby put their stuff under the stroller. Everything is possible.



















Some people even have cargo bikes. There's also a service when moving from an apartment to another.














































Montreal residents can now hire cyclists to get the job done on moving day


Montreal moving company, Déménagement Myette, offers to transport all your movable possessions on bike-drawn trailers




www.theglobeandmail.com








andrewf said:


> The City of Toronto as a whole is >4400/sqkm, including some large parks/ravine areas.


Yup, my borough in Montreal has a density of nearly 9,000/km². And that's without any high-rise buildings. We're about 140,000 on 16 km². And that's old stats from 2016. For reference, the area of a circle of 1.5 km radius is 7 km², which means probably 60,000 people living within a 1.5 km radius.



andrewf said:


> Wow. I was curious so I checked some of these against my neighbourhood (1.5 km radius).


Yeah I forgot we also have a gym and some community centers, good catch. Then there's also veterinarians, dentists, and other professionals.

It's crazy when we start trying to list everything.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

m3s said:


> The old European ladies just used saddle bags alongside the rear wheel. Seems to be pretty standard setup
> 
> Definitely helps with diet if you have to peddle all your food home


Yep and they do it every day out of necessity A lot of city dwellers only have tiny fridges. The fridge I had in my French apartments when I was in my 20's was pretty miniscule in comparison to the beast of a thing I have here in Canada. The old ladies aren't buying half a hog and 4L of milk bags, 48 rolls of toilet paper ....the shopping trip is very often not a chore but a social trip in itself. The markets they shop at can be fascinating, watching people buy two sausages and a tomato with a handful of green beans all at different stalls/stores 
I miss being 23


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrBlackhill said:


> Yeah I forgot we also have a gym and some community centers, good catch. Then there's also veterinarians, dentists, and other professionals.
> 
> It's crazy when we start trying to list everything.


Yeah, my vet is across the street and I just walk.

I'll also note that I am on the urban fringe of the GTA. I can go 1.5 km and be in agricultural land (for now).


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm a life long cyclist (including winter biking in Winnipeg) and I think the biking argument is over-played. Biking is a good method for a few seasons but only a minority of months in Canada are appropriate for biking around.

In Canada, we suffer from American car and suburbs culture, which is probably why so many people end up having to drive crazy distances day to day.

Better city design, public transit, and trains can take care of this problem. But before this can happen, people have to let go of car culture and suburb culture.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

Johnny199r said:


> I went to Italy this summer and was in awe of not needing a vehicle and taking public transportation everywhere. It also dawned on me that you don’t see nearly as many overweight people there as you do in Canada for that reason as people walk everywhere.
> 
> I realize Canada has more challenges, but I would definitely go car free if I lived in Montreal or Toronto. I look forward to one day living in a city that is designed without the personal motor vehicle in mind.


I see that kids in European cities are more independant. Little Johnny has soccer practice then he gets on his bike and off he goes. His sister is off on the bus to do her thing.This Canadian chap in the Netherlands talks about how normal it to see kids being independent. I don't imagine this is true everywhere but I wish we lived a bit more like that.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrBlackhill said:


> Not in the big dense cities because they are cities for people, not for cars.


Sure, for those that live in that type of area it may make sense but for the majority of us ... nope.



MrBlackhill said:


> People living in dense cities aren't all doing their grocery shopping in one day for the whole week. Since it's super near and walkable they just go get what they need for a few days and they'll go back another day. Sometimes we have no more food and I check with my wife what do we want to eat, I go get the ingredients and 15 minutes later I'm back.


If that's what you like to do, it's your time to spend. I much prefer to stock up (usually based on sale items) every other week and maybe do a quick shop or two if I'm driving by a store between.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> People living in dense cities aren't all doing their grocery shopping in one day for the whole week.


Why shop for a week, when you can go shopping EVERY DAY!

I don't even go shopping now, I order it and they deliver.



> Yup, my borough in Montreal has a density of nearly 9,000/km². And that's without any high-rise buildings. We're about 140,000 on 16 km². And that's old stats from 2016. For reference, the area of a circle of 1.5 km radius is 7 km², which means probably 60,000 people living within a 1.5 km radius.


yet, you still can't seem to share where this location actually is, or where you're sourcing all this info from.

Also that's only 1000sqft of total land per person, including commercial, industrial, roads etc.
Sounds like if you go outside it would always be crowded with people all over.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> I'm a life long cyclist (including winter biking in Winnipeg) and I think the biking argument is over-played. Biking is a good method for a few seasons but only a minority of months in Canada are appropriate for biking around.
> 
> In Canada, we suffer from American car and suburbs culture, which is probably why so many people end up having to drive crazy distances day to day.
> 
> Better city design, public transit, and trains can take care of this problem. But before this can happen, people have to let go of car culture and suburb culture.


It is possible to cycle in the winter with appropriate infrastructure and maintenance. I regularly cycle from Mar - November, but stop in the winter due to poor snow clearing.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

cainvest said:


> Sure, for those that live in that type of area it may make sense but for the majority of us ... nope.
> 
> If that's what you like to do, it's your time to spend. I much prefer to stock up (usually based on sale items) every other week and maybe do a quick shop or two if I'm driving by a store between.


Yes and I totally understand it. My point isn't that you are doing it wrong. You aren't doing anything wrong, as an individual. I totally understand that you don't have viable alternatives. My point is that we do bad designing of our cities and suburbs and that bad design is the reason why you don't have viable alternatives to vehicles.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrBlackhill said:


> People living in dense cities aren't all doing their grocery shopping in one day for the whole week. Since it's super near and walkable they just go get what they need for a few days and they'll go back another day. Sometimes we have no more food and I check with my wife what do we want to eat, I go get the ingredients and 15 minutes later I'm back.


Yea that's how it was in Europe

You don't see people loading up a months worth of processed foods in their SUVs to store in chest freezers for the next zombie apocalypse. They are picking up a bag of fresh produce from the farmer market, fresh bread from the bakery etc. Fridges and pantries are small.

Also people looked much healthier



Gothenburg83 said:


> I see that kids in European cities are more independant. Little Johnny has soccer practice then he gets on his bike and off he goes. His sister is off on the bus to do her thing.This Canadian chap in the Netherlands talks about how normal it to see kids being independent. I don't imagine this is true everywhere but I wish we lived a bit more like that.


Yea I remember there being more kids in the streets

We were independent kids in the rural areas when I grew up

Seems to be a more recent thing where suburban kids have structured activities with parent supervision


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Why shop for a week, when you can go shopping EVERY DAY!
> 
> *I don't even go shopping now, I order it and they deliver.*
> 
> ...


 ... and yet you were screaming about being "locked down" ... the irony.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrBlackhill said:


> My point is that we do bad designing of our cities and suburbs and that bad design is the reason why you don't have viable alternatives to vehicles.


I think a lot of it is just lifestyle, most prefer to drive even when given the option. BTW, I have options but I generally opt out for time savings. I do like the cycling infrastructure they have been expanding here though. It's much harder to change society habits once they have established.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

cainvest said:


> I think a lot of it is just lifestyle, most prefer to drive even when given the option. BTW, I have options but I generally opt out for time savings. I do like the cycling infrastructure they have been expanding here though. It's much harder to change society habits once they have established.


That's because our cities are designed for driving. Adding in some infrastructure after the fact is not the same at all

There's a documentary somewhere about how the urban design was influenced by big oil companies. Public transportation make a lot of sense

It's a lot easier and a lot better if public transport and alternate transport is designed from the start


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

m3s said:


> That's because our cities are designed for driving. Adding in some infrastructure after the fact is not the same at all


Depends on what they're adding. If a city adds (and maintains) a whole new bike path system and people don't use it ... well, that's a lifestyle issue. 

If I excluded my out of city "fun activities", I could easily get by without a vehicle. I have an entire shopping complex 1.2kms from my house with pretty much everything I need from food, medical, dental, home repair, etc. My area also has plenty of bus access to different areas of the city. Most areas in Winnipeg are the same but convience pushes most people to drive.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

cainvest said:


> I have an entire shopping complex 1.2kms from my house with pretty much everything I need from food, medical, dental, home repair, etc. My area also has plenty of bus access to different areas of the city. Most areas in Winnipeg are the same but convience pushes most people to drive.


It's not just distance or lifestyle though

If design from the start to be convenient to use public transportation it's completely different from adding some bike path on the outskirts and wondering why people don't use it. Large multilane roads with fast traffic are noisy, dangerous and just hostile/unpleasant for biking.

There's a lot more nuance between Winnipeg and Amsterdam than proximity of stores


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> It is possible to cycle in the winter with appropriate infrastructure and maintenance. I regularly cycle from Mar - November, but stop in the winter due to poor snow clearing.


You're right, with more infrastructure it becomes more feasible.

But even as a very serious cyclist, I still think it's impossible in some parts of Canada. I really don't want to get on the bicycle and be out in the wind below a windchill of -15. So even a "nice looking" sunny winter day in Winnipeg or Edmonton with air temp -15 and a brisk wind is, IMO, a really unpleasant bike ride.

Though I would agree that it's much more feasible in southern Ontario where it never really gets too cold. Infrastructure is needed of course.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

m3s said:


> If design from the start to be convenient to use public transportation it's completely different from adding some bike path on the outskirts and wondering why people don't use it. Large multilane roads with fast traffic are noisy, dangerous and just hostile/unpleasant for biking.


The new bike path system (not on the side of road but it's own separate path) goes from the outskirts to the core of the city all without traffic wizzing by you!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It gets pretty cold anywhere around the Great Lakes, which is pretty much all of Southern Ontario, and there is a lot of "lake effect" snow.

Riding a bicycle in the winter in Ontario is pretty much a non-starter. You would be better off with a snowmobile.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Colder than Finland? I may not want to ride every day (say, during storms) but I think with adequate snow clearing much of the winter is quite rideable if you are prepared. It's no worse than going for a walk, since the exertion warms you up.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A snowmobile suit will conquer the cold but won’t keep the bike upright.

Poor traction is why you don’t see people riding motorcycles or driving Corvettes in the winter , not the cold weather.

I have driven 4 wheel drive ATVs on winter roads and they slide around and get caught in the ruts enough to make it interesting.

We put snow tires on our AWD SUV for better traction , mostly to avoid sliding through intersections and stopping at the bottom of hills.

Looking at the side of our vehicle after driving around in the winter slush, I wouldn’t want to be covered in that either.

You can always give it a try to see how it goes. Maybe you will be fine.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> A snowmobile suit will conquer the cold but won’t keep the bike upright.
> 
> Poor traction is why you don’t see people riding motorcycles or driving Corvettes in the winter , not the cold weather.


People don't drive Covettes in the winter because they don't want to damage them.
If you think high performance sports cars don't have traction, you're even more delusional than I though.

Many auto experts think that sports cars make excellent winter vehicles, because the same things that make them perform in good conditions also help them perform in bad conditions.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

It used to be that RWD cars didn't handle well in slippery conditions, but with traction control this isn't really a problem anymore.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> Many auto experts think that sports cars make excellent winter vehicles, because the same things that make them perform in good conditions also help them perform in bad conditions.


Sure they can be but not if you want to drive in deeper snow as ground clearance can be an issue.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Sure they can be but not if you want to drive in deeper snow as ground clearance can be an issue.


In the cities, they don't get much accumulation.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> It used to be that RWD cars didn't handle well in slippery conditions, but with traction control this isn't really a problem anymore.


I remember when I was commuting years ago.

The first few snowy days meant the ditches would be full of AWD/4WD & Mustangs.

Mustangs because of RWD obviously. AWD/4WD because they think they're somehow invincible. Even FWD cars have 4 wheel for stability and braking, that AWD system won't help much.
I'd rather have a FWD with snows, than an SUV with all Seasons.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> I may not want to ride every day (say, during storms) but I think with adequate snow clearing much of the winter is quite rideable if you are prepared.


That's the issue here, bike paths are not maintained as quickly as the roads so ice/snow building up can be a real problem. I do see a number of fat bikes out regularly in the winter, not so much for normal bikes. I'll be interesting to see if the new ebike crowd commutes here in the winter.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> I'd rather have a FWD with snows, than an SUV with all Seasons.


I'd rather have an AWD with studded winter tires. 
Speaking of which, think I'll swap to winters this weekend.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> In the cities, they don't get much accumulation.


There is less snow than urban vs. rural. Depends on the city and depends on snow removal in those cities. I had damage to the underside of my vehicle this past winter because of the accumulation and lack of removal by the city. I also spent a lot of mornings helping push cars out of the snow on their drive into work. Many parts of the country get snow in late fall and it doesn't go away until the spring melt.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

In Ontario we get that wet, heavy snow due to the Great Lakes moisture.

Our roads and sidewalks inevitably turn into ice.

I don't get.........if bicycles are legal for the snow, then why not ATVs ?

If I could drive one of those around, I would get one instead of a second vehicle. They are a lot safer than a bicycle.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Many cold cities like Edmonton let the snow pack on residential streets and often have to resort to graders with rippers in the Spring to break it up so the spring melt doesn't create potholes that swallow children and small cars


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> Many cold cities like Edmonton let the snow pack on residential streets and often have to resort to graders with rippers in the Spring to break it up so the spring melt doesn't create potholes that swallow children and small cars


Winnipeg does this as well, you get some very deep ruts on some streets over the winter. Residential may get a couple of full cleanings if the snowfall amounts (like last year) are higher then normal


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## Eager Beaver (11 mo ago)

Local terrain where I currently live is an issue for me. About a 6 KM uphill bike ride. Steep, reaching 11% grade at times. Wintertime we see -28C. Icy slopes up and down is not fun in a car some days. I imagine a bicycle would be interesting. I’m within city limits but rural. There is not 1 business within walking range. I do cycle for exercise. Sadly, I load up my bike and drive to the valley bottom. Ride. Then load it on the car rack to drive up the hill home again.
Its not great for walking or biking here. What is nice is peace and quiet. No crime. No transients. Wildlife. We have bears, deer, coyotes, and more. We love the privacy and space.

I bought a used $3000 car 17 months ago to commute to work. It’s never been to a garage since I bought it. I do all my own repairs and maintenance

I’ll try figure out my annual costs.

Since I bought it:
New brake master cylinder $151.12
1 new brake caliper $122
4 good used studded snow tires on rims. $80
1 motor mount $72
2 new struts $250
2 new shocks $100
Thermostat $35.69
Antifreeze $22
3 oil changes $75
Transmission oil change $80
Insurance $900/yr
Fuel $40 week average

$987.81 maint costs total
$2720 fuel costs
$1275 Insurance costs:
Total for 17 months: $4,983

Works out to an average of $3517 for 12 mos.
$293/month average

My maintenance costs have since dropped considerably. I did what the car needed when I first bought it. Yet other costs will arise at some point. They always do. Depreciation doesn’t really add up to much on a $3000 car that is currently 16 years old. The car has no rust. No accidents. Its a good looking car that I quite enjoy. I would not hesitate to take it on a long road trip. Its very reliable and safe.

That’s one scenario here. I’ve got other examples where I am seeing a lot higher vehicle owership costs. We’re all different with different skill sets and needs/wants. I can’t cycle or walk anywhere right now as mentioned above. Upon actual retirement I could see us moving for reap those benefits. In the meantime, I’ll continue to try keeping my vehicle ownership costs down.


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## Faramir (11 mo ago)

So 2 cars but a family of 6. Bought a 2009 honda odyssey in 2011. Did the timing belt recently. Knowing it has resale value just plan to drive it until the tow truck takes it away. Our 2011 pilot just got a replacement engine, covered by a 3rd party mechanical break down insurer. (I think they will never insure us again LOL). Would never buy new as just not worth the expense. Plugging Along our daughter is 17 and soon to get her license. Think she will just have to borrow the second car as can't afford to buy her one.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> I remember when I was commuting years ago.
> 
> The first few snowy days meant the ditches would be full of AWD/4WD & Mustangs.
> 
> ...


Luckily it's not an either/or. I have AWD with dedicated winter tires. I used to have both FWD and RWD in years past, but AWD is superior to both in poor weather. I've never hit a ditch but I do understand that braking isn't improved with AWD or 4WD.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

HappilyRetired said:


> Luckily it's not an either/or. I have AWD with dedicated winter tires. I used to have both FWD and RWD in years past, but AWD is superior to both in poor weather. I've never hit a ditch but I do understand that braking isn't improved with AWD or 4WD.


I think AWD is best, but I'd rather 2WD with snows than AWD with crappy all seasons.

I have no opinion of all weathers, because they're new technology.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

HappilyRetired said:


> I've never hit a ditch but I do understand that braking isn't improved with AWD or 4WD.


And that is why tires are important more than the drivetrain, generally. Both braking and steering are improved on snow/ice with winter tires.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

We have to have vehicles. The nearest store of any kind (a strip mall) is 1.5 kms away. It has a butcher, restaurant, gym, bakery, Tim's, and a couple other places I can't think of. The nearest grocery store is 5-6 kms away but that general location has 3 major grocery stores, Costco, Canadian Tire, Lowes, Home Depot, Walmart, etc. Plus several dozen other stores and dozens of restaurants.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

You know when you are driving on an incline during a snowfall and there is a long lineup of cars just sitting there, patiently waiting for the guy without snow tires trying to get up the hill and spinning his tires as he slides back down sideways ?

That was me back when I didn't think snow tires were of much use in the city......sorry.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

sags said:


> You know when you are driving on an incline during a snowfall and there is a long lineup of cars just sitting there, patiently waiting for the guy without snow tires trying to get up the hill and spinning his tires as he slides back down sideways ?
> 
> That was me back when I didn't think snow tires were of much use in the city......sorry.


It's the same at a red light. When it turns green the car in front of everyone without snow tires takes forever to get started and instead of 12 - 15 cars moving through the intersection only 7 or 8 can make it. In rush hour that causes very long delays.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> I think AWD is best, but I'd rather 2WD with snows than AWD with crappy all seasons.
> 
> I have no opinion of all weathers, because they're new technology.


I've had some 5-8 years of history with 'all weather' tires on both an AWD sports sedan and a SUV. They are a good option to avoid the cost and inconvenience of 2 seasonal swaps and storage of the 'off season' set. They won't get the 80,000km wear of '3 season' tires but they have just as good handling characteristics as any '3 season' tire. I've only ever used the higher performance Nokian WRG3 or WRG4 tires for my purposes.

Like most everyone else, I curse the idiots who try to go through winter with '3 season' tires, and especially on 2WD vehicles. We need regulations like Quebec (I think) where winters are mandatory.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

My last 4 vehicles (3 years each) have been a combination of Audi, BMW and Mercedes with new from factory stock tires. All were AWD and I've had absolutely no problem getting around the GTA with all season tires. And, I commute a fair distance every day.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Gator13 said:


> My last 4 vehicles (3 years each) have been a combination of Audi, BMW and Mercedes with new from factory stock tires. All were AWD and I've had absolutely no problem getting around the GTA with all season tires. And, I commute a fair distance every day.


Sure, you can get around on all seasons, but not as well as if you had dedicated winter tires. I've lost count how many cars I've been stuck behind that are "getting along no problem".


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

HappilyRetired said:


> Sure, you can get around on all seasons, but not as well as if you had dedicated winter tires. I've lost count how many cars I've been stuck behind that are "getting along no problem".


I have an SUV now with winter tires. Marginal difference other than the clearance is obviously better and makes a difference. Acceleration and handling was more than enough with the all seasons. (Beyond what traffic allows for) My commute is 100+ kms per day and I've been doing it for 25 years. (Consider that I did say the GTA) Also, raised in the prairies so I know about snow.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I agree "getting by" is not a valid response. 3 season tires simply do not have the cornering and braking capabilities of winter tires with rubber compounds meant for low (<7C) temperatures. I did that too for a few years on my 2007 AWD Infiniti but recognized ultimately that was rolling the dice, and especially limiting my ability to be in the mountains in winter. Getting by with 3 seasons can work in temperate climates like Vancouver and maybe most of the winter in places like GTA (I lived there for over 10 years in total) but they are a danger to everyone else on the road in most places in Canada.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

That is why I specified the GTA. The skillset of many drivers these days leaves a lot to be desired.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Gator13 said:


> I have an SUV now with winter tires. Marginal difference other than the clearance is obviously better and makes a difference.


How is clearance affected by winter tires?
That doesn't make sense, unless you picked a different tire size.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> How is clearance affected by winter tires?
> That doesn't make sense, unless you picked a different tire size.


Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was driving sport sedans with all seasons for the past 12 years and now have an SUV as a daily driver. The clearance on the SUV is an advantage in heavy snow.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Gator13 said:


> That is why I specified the GTA. The skillset of many drivers these days leaves a lot to be desired.


Starting in 2nd for those With manual transmissions or automatics (which allow 2nd to be isolated) is a good technique for rolling off.

I commuted in the GTA for 30 years without snows. It’s not that bad. You’re talking less than 10 extreme snow days a year. If you can afford snows, go for it.

i took the leap on snows when we moved to a rural location. Not having curbs on most roadways does lead to more “ditching”. And our particular county doesn’t use road salt…just sand.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

Money172375 said:


> Starting in 2nd for those With manual transmissions or automatics (which allow 2nd to be isolated) is a good technique for rolling off.
> 
> I commuted in the GTA for 30 years without snows. It’s not that bad. You’re talking less than 10 extreme snow days a year. If you can afford snows, go for it.
> 
> i took the leap on snows when we moved to a rural location. Not having curbs on most roadways does lead to more “ditching”. And our particular county doesn’t use road salt…just sand.


Agreed. The snow belt north of the GTA or areas like London are a different story. Technology on cars has come a long ways as well and makes a big difference.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

We just got brand winter tires for our coupe and it makes such a difference. The first snow fall, we hadn't changed them yet, and I slid down my hill, could barely make up, and that going around the other side of the loop where it was less steep. We put the tires on the next day, and have had much more snow and even my 17 year can drive it. Our truck and SUV just has all seasons, the truck with weight is no problem, the SUV AWD slips more than my coupe with new snow tires. I believe I can totally tell the difference, though it could be the the SUV's tires are older.

We don't do winter on all vehicles because of the storage and the extra time it takes everything to get swapped.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

sags said:


> You know when you are driving on an incline during a snowfall and there is a long lineup of cars just sitting there, patiently waiting for the guy without snow tires trying to get up the hill and spinning his tires as he slides back down sideways ?
> 
> That was me back when I didn't think snow tires were of much use in the city......sorry.


Winter tyres fwd vs AWD summer tyres


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

If having the added control and braking ability you get from snows saves you from one accident in your entire life, I think the cost is well worth it.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Just to throw this out there for those with SUVs, I've been running my all terrian tires with little issue for a few winters now. Kind of feels more like an all weather tire even though they are not 3pmsf rated, only m+s. The biggest drawback is on ice, I get a pretty good slide to them when I compare them to my studded winters.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

cainvest said:


> Just to throw this out there for those with SUVs, I've been running my all terrian tires with little issue for a few winters now. Kind of feels more like an all weather tire even though they are not 3pmsf rated, only m+s. The biggest drawback is on ice, I get a pretty good slide to them when I compare them to my studded winters.


Studded tires definitely provide the best traction. In Ontario, they're only allowed in some northern areas and possibly only during specific months.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Gator13 said:


> Studded tires definitely provide the best traction. In Ontario, they're only allowed in some northern areas and possibly only during specific months.


If you're in an area with clear roads, that are just cold and possibly wet, you don't need studded tires.
Most vehicles in southern Ontario have never seen a snowdrift, they drive around the highly populated cities, with little reason to venture further.

If the snow is really coming down, I'll avoid going out, because of the risk of other drivers.

The accumulation isn't much of a problem my car easily handles bottoming out on fresh snow.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> If you're in an area with clear roads, that are just cold and possibly wet, you don't need studded tires.
> Most vehicles in southern Ontario have never seen a snowdrift, they drive around the highly populated cities, with little reason to venture further.
> 
> If the snow is really coming down, I'll avoid going out, because of the risk of other drivers.
> ...


And as previously mentioned, they are only allowed in some northern areas.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Gator13 said:


> And as previously mentioned, they are only allowed in some northern areas.


Yes, and I was just making the point that for most people in southern areas they're completely unnecessary.
As much as wearing arctic rated jackets on the Toronto Subway.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Gator13 said:


> Studded tires definitely provide the best traction. In Ontario, they're only allowed in some northern areas and possibly only during specific months.


For sure studded are great for many areas, more so for the colder areas of Canada. They have their downsides to, like when the roads are just wet you actually loose some traction. Of course when you need them the most, like after a freezing rain, they really shine.


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## Eager Beaver (11 mo ago)

Driving winding mountainous snowy roads in Canadian terrain will dictate what tires you need. All season tires in an SUV won’t cut it. I see a ton of them upside down in ditch after every snow storm on local hiways. All-season tires on an SUV won’t cut it in winter, in BC, anywhere outside the Greater Vancouver/Lower Mainland area. 1000’s of folks may think otherwise. Eventually at some point it bites ‘em. Not a risk I’ll take. I came too close to losing my young wife and our 2 sons 20 years ago, due to all-season tires on a BC winter road. We got lucky. They crossed the yellow line on slick icy roads. On a turn. They flipped upside down in deep snow, in a ditch. They struggled to get out at -30 cel. An upcoming trucker saw them. Cut their seatbelts and got them into his warm cab. I wasn’t there. I got the call from the hospital.

Not the call you ever want. Momma gets brand new winter tires whenever required. The boys grew up. I happily help them swap tires every fall and spring, on their vehicles.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Many (most?) routes in BC require winter (snowflake) tires (or chains) on between Oct 1-Mar 31 (or to Apr 30 on major mountain highways). Police spot check (check stops) typically in November to encourage compliance. 

The two mountain highways between ourselves and Vancouver can easily get dumps of snow at high elevations between Oct 1 and Apr 30th even if folks are gardening and golfing in the valleys for a few months more. Those highways are often chaotic and closed on a regular basis due to accidents until people get out of their denial zones, or the valley dwellers having no idea what they are getting themselves into. We have to make the trip to the coast in late December and we need to be prepared for possible multi-hour closures (6 hours minimum for fatal accidents) in the middle of nowhere. We've experienced such long closures at least twice in the past 10 years.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

^ I watched a few episodes of Highway thru Hell. Crazy weather.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

People also don't know the limits of their vehicles. If you have all seasons, and the road conditions are not good, you should stop and turn around. Better than dying in a ditch.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> Many (most?) routes in BC require winter (snowflake) tires (or chains) on between Oct 1-Mar 31 (or to Apr 30 on major mountain highways).


Actually M+S is the minimum required in BC.

Passenger Vehicle - Tire and Chain Requirements


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Ah yes, I stand corrected. I wouldn't be caught on BC high mountain roads with anything less than an "all weather" tire though even with AWD/4WD, whatever is the rating. I've traveled the TCH, Okanagan Connector and Coquihalla enough over the years during snow storms and/or low temps to know a straight M+S won't cut it. Those vehicles end up in the ditches.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Gator13 said:


> ^ I watched a few episodes of Highway thru Hell. Crazy weather.


Everyone traveling the Coquihalla during winter storms should be required to watch those 'Highway through Hell' episodes. 

We went through one of those on Apr 2, 2017 where there was a fatality north of us with about an 8 hour delay. The crews eventually opened up a barrier allowing us all to U turn and go back to Hope to wait it out. Then we had to deal with black ice on the connector between Merritt and Kelowna. A trip that started around 2pm (or earlier) in Vancouver ended around 2am back in the Okanagan. Thank goodness for 'all weather' tires and AWD.

P.S. The winter storm didn't hit the Coquihalla until after we had started north from Hope, as one of those 'sudden winter storms' that the electronic highway signs warn about. How bad could it get in such short time we thought.....


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

cainvest said:


> For sure studded are great for many areas, more so for the colder areas of Canada. They have their downsides to, like when the roads are just wet you actually loose some traction. Of course when you need them the most, like after a freezing rain, they really shine.


I'm in QC now and just had a hoot driving my brother-in-law's electric Leaf fitted with studded tyres on hard packed snow.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> Everyone traveling the Coquihalla during winter storms should be required to watch those 'Highway through Hell' episodes.


We had a storm through southern Ontario, there is a 100km stretch of highway that is pretty isolated. 
They had a few hundred vehicles get stuck. The kicker is that people were travelling without proper clothing, and diabetics without snacks etc. 
It was nearly fatal for some of these people. 

By proper clothing I mean no jacket, and a lot of women with only their heels, that doesn't help in a blizzard.

I personally kept boots in my car just for such an emergency.

I can't imagine the lack of preparation some people take out into the mountains.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Ok, I've been a cyclist/commuter cyclist in Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary for past 31 yrs. I gave up my driver's license when I was around 21 yrs. I didn't enjoy driving at all and felt I would be a danger to others. So it has been walking, transit and cycling. I've calculated I've redirected probably $300,000 to other things by not running/owning a car at all.

For sure, have lived in liveable neighbourhoods, a term by urban planners, where one's home is a 15 min. walk to transit, some shops, services and park. I've lived like this since I was kid, since my parents couldn't afford to buy a car until I was 13 yrs. old. We lived in K-W.

Am I the transportation outlier here in terms of modes and frugality?


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

I have 3 bicycles. No e-bike yet. My annual costs for bike accessories/tune-up, etc. (when I'm not lazy) amounts to under $200.00. Just remind folks a Schwable tire that has prevents too many flats.,..can be around $80.00 up per tire. But worth it if cycling several times/wk.


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## newfoundlander61 (Feb 6, 2011)

For us arounnd $150 for gas per month.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Not everyone can live a 5 minute walk from everything. And we both have outside interests that require a vehicle. For example, she bowls in winter and the lanes are 8km away. Her ball league in summer plays at diamonds that are 20 kms away. I golf and the courses are 10 kms to 100 kms away. When I used to work (retired now) the office was 7 kms away and main road was a dangerous highway with no bike lane and an unpaved shoulder.

And we own a cabin that is 90 kms away. We both also have aging parents that need rides to doctor appts and grocery stores. For some people it's impossible to live without a vehicle.

That being said, we are happy where we live. I knew when I bought my house that a vehicle was required and am okay with that.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

jlunfirst said:


> Ok, I've been a cyclist/commuter cyclist in Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary for past 31 yrs. I gave up my driver's license when I was around 21 yrs. I didn't enjoy driving at all and felt I would be a danger to others. So it has been walking, transit and cycling. I've calculated I've redirected probably $300,000 to other things by not running/owning a car at all.
> 
> For sure, have lived in liveable neighbourhoods, a term by urban planners, where one's home is a 15 min. walk to transit, some shops, services and park. I've lived like this since I was kid, since my parents couldn't afford to buy a car until I was 13 yrs. old. We lived in K-W.
> 
> Am I the transportation outlier here in terms of modes and frugality?


Honestly with my lifestyle it isn't possible to use transit, trips that are 15 minutes by car are an hour or more by bus, not including waiting for the bus.
I easily save 20-30 hours a week driving rather than taking public transit. That's almost a second full time job of wasted time.

This livable neighbourhood thing assumes either extremely high density, or a lack of options.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Honestly with my lifestyle it isn't possible to use transit, trips that are 15 minutes by car are an hour or more by bus, not including waiting for the bus.
> I easily save 20-30 hours a week driving rather than taking public transit. That's almost a second full time job of wasted time.
> 
> This livable neighbourhood thing assumes either extremely high density, or a lack of options.


Some people forget that time is valuable. I drove to work in 8 minutes. The closest bus stop was over a kilometer away and it took a roundabout route to go past the office. Total commute would have been 45+ minutes. Commuting is really just unpaid labour.

90 minutes a day of commute time vs.16 minutes. That alone is 6.25 hours without calculating all the other errands and activities done with a vehicle. For me it's at least 15 hours a week for routine day to day stuff.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

HappilyRetired said:


> Some people forget that time is valuable. I drove to work in 8 minutes. The closest bus stop was over a kilometer away and it took a roundabout route to go past the office. Total commute would have been 45+ minutes. Commuting is really just unpaid labour.
> 
> 90 minutes a day of commute time vs.16 minutes. That alone is 6.25 hours without calculating all the other errands and activities done with a vehicle. For me it's at least 15 hours a week for routine day to day stuff.


15 hours at $15 minimum wage (and I think most of us make more than min wage)

That's $225/wk, plus bus fare. To spend $1k/month to not have a car seems ridiculous.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Honestly with my lifestyle it isn't possible to use transit, trips that are 15 minutes by car are an hour or more by bus, not including waiting for the bus.
> I easily save 20-30 hours a week driving rather than taking public transit. That's almost a second full time job of wasted time.
> 
> This livable neighbourhood thing assumes either extremely high density, or a lack of options.


A lot of it comes down to how we build our cities. You don't need extreme density to have your daily needs close to where you live.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> A lot of it comes down to how we build our cities. You don't need extreme density to have your daily needs close to where you live.


Matters what they are.

My doctor is across town, I'm lucky to have a doctor.
My childrens sports facilities, one is over 1 hour by bus, the other doesn't have bus service. 
Another is a 45 minute drive, another is in a different city (again a 45 minute drive) 

Their schools, again, an hour plus on the city bus (though their school bus does in in 30 mins), because the local school doesn't offer the same programs.

Like other posters mentioned, sure they can have a little corner supermarket or whatever, with limited stock, and basic services can be nearby.
But the broad range of products and services simply don't fit in a "walkable" neighbourhood.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> You don't need extreme density to have your daily needs close to where you live.


Even when some daily things are close by others may not be. Sure it may give you an option to walk/cycle but when it's -35c out with a -45c windchill I'd rather have a car.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

cainvest said:


> but when it's -35c out with a -45c windchill I'd rather have a car.


And drive on ice during a snow storm with an increased risk of accident?

We simply have very bad city design and not enough public transportation options.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrBlackhill said:


> And drive on ice during a snow storm with an increased risk of accident?


I drive with ice on the roads regularly and in snow storms fairly often ... no big deal.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> And drive on ice during a snow storm with an increased risk of accident?


No, if it isn't safe, don't go out.




> We simply have very bad city design and not enough public transportation options.


yes
Also it is design to fit a set of use cases, and if well designed for those use cases, it's just fine.

The problem is that those use cases, and designs, even of your walkable neighbourhood, doesn't fit well with the desired lifestyle of many people.

I remember growing up beside a baseball diamond and tennis court, but it was a good long bike ride to the playground with swings and climbing equipment.
That's not necessarily bad design, it's bad design for me. 

The thing is the central planner authoritarian types think we should all live one way, and want the same things, then their perfect system works.
If you allow people freedom, where they do different things and want different things, these systems simply don't work.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> And drive on ice during a snow storm with an increased risk of accident?


I've never had an accident in 45 yeas of driving except once someone rear ended me. In summer.



> We simply have very bad city design and not enough public transportation options.


That's true, but it's too late to change. And change assumes that everyone wants the same thing which they don't. Also, my time is valuable. Public transportation wastes that time.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> No, if it isn't safe, don't go out.


Exactly. If it's not safe to drive you're likely not walking or cycling somewhere either.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

cainvest said:


> I drive with ice on the roads regularly and in snow storms fairly often ... no big deal.


The big deal may not you, but the others. You may have too much trust in the driving skills of the other people on the road.

You may have never gotten into an accident under winter conditions, but how many have you seen? Probably lots of them.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrBlackhill said:


> The big deal may not you, but the others. You may have too much trust in the driving skills of the other people on the road.
> 
> You may have never gotten into an accident under winter conditions, but how many have you seen? Probably lots of them.


I don't trust other drivers at all, no one should on regular roads. Though I haven't been in any winter accidents they are fairly common here. On the plus side, when the weather gets really bad most stay off the road.

Not sure what your point is other than a slight increase in risk driving in winter but I'd still rather drive than walk somewhere when it's -35c outside.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

cainvest said:


> I don't trust other drivers at all, no one should on regular roads. Though I haven't been in any winter accidents they are fairly common here. On the plus side, when the weather gets really bad most stay off the road.


You can't go wrong assuming that every driver around you is incompetent.



> Not sure what your point is other than a slight increase in risk driving in winter but I'd still rather drive than walk somewhere when it's -35c outside.


Most of Canada would be uninhabitable without fossil fuels and motor vehicles.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

HappilyRetired said:


> You can't go wrong assuming that every driver around you is incompetent.


I think it is irresponsible not to.
When you go for a drive, particularly in a busy area, you're betting that each and every one of the dozens, hundreds and in some cases thousands of drivers near you are all operating at a certain level of competency, and it only takes one or two to have potentially fatal consequences.

I think it's actually a testiment to our society that something like our traffic system exists at such a relatively safe level, millions of people driving multi tonne death machines at high speed, in close proximity, and we only end up with half a dozen deaths a day is pretty impressive (though we should try to do better)


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

HappilyRetired said:


> You can't go wrong assuming that every driver around you is incompetent.


You sure can ... and should.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

andrewf said:


> A lot of it comes down to how we build our cities. You don't need extreme density to have your daily needs close to where you live.


I would agree and also it means, very consciously assessing a potential neighbourhood to live/buy to live in, on specific criteria..ie proximity to some shops/services/transit.
I know within my family and for close friends the proximity of the house (I didn't even dare mention condo) to major transit route, within 15 min. walk, will add value to their home in major Canadian cities. Or it's just easier to sell the home in addition to other positive criteria.

In Vancouver and Calgary, I've been only 15-10 min. walk (or shorter via bike ride) to my doctor and dentist. 10 min. walk or less to major park and bike-ped pathway which hooks to more pathways going in all 4 quadrants of each city.

For those who insist on car, well ok. You probably have a child to schlep you when you should no longer drive? I don't aim to be isolated so the taxi ride is just 15 min. drive away. Cheaper than going halfway across a big city. I can't /should never assume a friend or neighbour will give me rides on my call all the time. In fact, I would be insane.

So saving money, really has been a wonderful byproduct/end result of how I have been living for past few decades. In Toronto, the subway in Scarborough was across the street from condo bldg. I biked to work into financial district downtown through Toronto's interconnected parks pathway system or I biked through the Beaches south along waterfront trail along Lake Ontario. I did this for a decade.

The saving of money....extends to the reality that I have never had fitness club membership. It is my health saver and de-stressor. I probably "saved" money in those health preventive measures. I only took 3 courses or so, each 6 wks. long in tai chi, yoga and pilates in the past 4 decades.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

So even if you don't live in a liveable neighbourhood: please support your municipality when they want to design liveable neighbourhoods, install a protected bike lane, pedestrian-acitvated traffic lights, etc. (One shouldn't be driving over the speed limit anyway. Too bad being safe for the pedestrians, the walking children, etc. It's for them, the vulnerable. The world doesn't revolve cars.)


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

jlunfirst said:


> The world doesn't revolve cars.


Much of the world does but as a fairly active cyclist myself I'm all for separate bike paths.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Matters what they are.
> 
> My doctor is across town, I'm lucky to have a doctor.
> My childrens sports facilities, one is over 1 hour by bus, the other doesn't have bus service.
> ...


London is a small city, about 15km x 15km. That means you can get between any two points in London in at most an hour by bike (at a casual speed of 15 kph), and usually a lot less. The fact that bus service is so poor in London is a consequence of how the city was built.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Even when some daily things are close by others may not be. Sure it may give you an option to walk/cycle but when it's -35c out with a -45c windchill I'd rather have a car.


It never gets this cold in southern Ontario. And there are cities that are walkable/cyclable that have worse winters than southern Ontario.

Look, we're never going to eliminate cars. They are very useful. It's just that it is not optimal or sustainable to build cities where cars are the _only_ practical method of getting around.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

andrewf said:


> London is a small city, about 15km x 15km. That means you can get between any two points in London in at most an hour by bike (at a casual speed of 15 kph), and usually a lot less. The fact that bus service is so poor in London is a consequence of how the city was built.


I went to university in London. I lived only 15 min. walk from campus. London is probably built up alot. A nephew is finishing his degree there. I found London at the time way too conservative compared to K-W at that time. I'm sure city has changed. Transit in Calgary is good only certain areas. Just terrible in suburban edge areas which I seldom go there anyway. There's nothing to see there. Most of the chain stores are also downtown so no need to go out to suburbs except for long lovely fitness ride.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

HappilyRetired said:


> You can't go wrong assuming that every driver around you is incompetent.
> 
> 
> Most of Canada would be uninhabitable without fossil fuels and motor vehicles.


Kind of absurd, given that Canada was populated by First Nations before the invention of either technology.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

andrewf said:


> It never gets this cold in southern Ontario. And there are cities that are walkable/cyclable that have worse winters than southern Ontario.
> 
> Look, we're never going to eliminate cars. They are very useful. It's just that it is not optimal or sustainable to build cities where cars are the _only_ practical method of getting around.


A boomer recently retired close friend continues not to own a car. She uses carshare in Toronto, several times/yr. She owns 2 homes..lives in 1 of them.She is single and used to work for Ont. Ministry of Transportation. She is a long time cyclist for past few decades and uses transit in Toronto...15 min. walk to subway.

I'm sorry to all those who think life is not possible by using transit: my parents, Chinese immigrants always bought and lived in a home 15 min. walk from transit. That was always 1 of their key criteria in addition to others, for assessing a home before buying. We couldn't afford a car until I was 13 yrs. old. I am the eldest of 6 children. I grew up in K-W. I insist that it IS so possible to live the way I have for the past....6 decades in Canada across 5 different cities in 3 provinces. It is planning and making strong conscious choices when buying home in a location.

think REALLY hard before you buy a home. Think long term.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

HappilyRetired said:


> That's true, but it's too late to change. And change assumes that everyone wants the same thing which they don't. Also, my time is valuable. Public transportation wastes that time.


Even if you don't want to use public transit, having good alternatives to the car means that more people opt not to drive, reducing congestion and delays for car drivers. It is never 'too late'. We're constantly building and rebuilding our cities. Every road undergoes major reconstruction every 30 years.





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en.wikipedia.org


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

jlunfirst said:


> A boomer recently retired close friend continues not to own a car. She uses carshare in Toronto, several times/yr. She owns 2 homes..lives in 1 of them.She is single and used to work for Ont. Ministry of Transportation. She is a long time cyclist for past few decades and uses transit in Toronto...15 min. walk to subway.
> 
> I'm sorry to all those who think life is not possible by using transit: my parents, Chinese immigrants always bought and lived in a home 15 min. walk from transit. That was always 1 of their key criteria in addition to others, for assessing a home before buying. We couldn't afford a car until I was 13 yrs. old. I am the eldest of 6 children. I grew up in K-W. I insist that it IS so possible to live the way I have for the past....6 decades in Canada across 5 different cities in 3 provinces. It is planning and making strong conscious choices when buying home in a location.
> 
> think REALLY hard before you buy a home. Think long term.


Even 15 minutes is a pretty long walk just to get on transit. I think we should do more to encourage bike+transit. That means secure bike parking near major transit stations. A 15 minute walk is a 5 minute bike ride. Makes a lot more sense than the sea of parking (or garage mahals) at GO stations.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

andrewf said:


> Kind of absurd, given that Canada was populated by First Nations before the invention of either technology.


I know. But their standard of living was very poor. Someone on welfare today lives 20 times better than they did.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

jlunfirst said:


> For those who insist on car, well ok. You probably have a child to schlep you when you should no longer drive? I don't aim to be isolated so the taxi ride is just 15 min. drive away. Cheaper than going halfway across a big city. I can't /should never assume a friend or neighbour will give me rides on my call all the time. In fact, I would be insane.


Don't assume that people won't make changes when they get older or when circumstances are different. Just because I drive now doesn't mean that I will in a few years.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

HappilyRetired said:


> Don't assume that people won't make changes when they get older or when circumstances are different. Just because I drive now doesn't mean that I will in a few years.


What do /are you doing to help yourself to be driving less?


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

jlunfirst said:


> What do /are you doing to help yourself to be driving less?


I currently drive as much as I need to, no more no less. When it becomes more difficult I'll make arrangements but there's no need to right now.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

jlunfirst said:


> I'm sorry to all those who think life is not possible by using transit:


Life is very possible to live without a car, lots of ways to get around if you want to live that lifestyle. Just remember there are people, like myself, that really enjoy driving ... on road, off road, 4 and 2 wheels and even some competitive closed course racing for fun. Even with multiple vehicles I still do walk (mainly with my dog) and bicycle around the city when the weather permits.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

jlunfirst said:


> Ok, I've been a cyclist/commuter cyclist in Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary for past 31 yrs. I gave up my driver's license when I was around 21 yrs. I didn't enjoy driving at all and felt I would be a danger to others. So it has been walking, transit and cycling. I've calculated I've redirected probably $300,000 to other things by not running/owning a car at all.
> 
> For sure, have lived in liveable neighbourhoods, a term by urban planners, where one's home is a 15 min. walk to transit, some shops, services and park. I've lived like this since I was kid, since my parents couldn't afford to buy a car until I was 13 yrs. old. We lived in K-W.
> 
> Am I the transportation outlier here in terms of modes and frugality?



I live in such a neighbourhood and notionally at least I could live without a car. I love the idea of the frugality aspect but not having a car would be a pain and I'd have to give up some stuff I currently do I imagine. However - for the most part- I enjoy driving and I enjoy the convience. 
For years before WFH and my (early) retirement I cycled 10km to work but never in Jan -March, nope no thank you, it was back in the car. I cycled mainly for the exercise aspect and found the time difference car vs bike wasn't a big factor and sometimes the bike was quicker. On the whole I found the cycle ride to work was mentally better, I felt more alert and switched on. The only downside was dealing with road rage on a bike is no fun and a lot of people really do not want to share the road with a cyclist. I never got hit or knocked off my bike but often had someone impatiently overtake me and immediately slow down & turn right on me forcing me to make a dramatic stop.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Life is very possible to live without a car, lots of ways to get around if you want to live that lifestyle. Just remember there are people, like myself, that really enjoy driving ... on road, off road, 4 and 2 wheels and even some competitive closed course racing for fun. Even with multiple vehicles I still do walk (mainly with my dog) and bicycle around the city when the weather permits.


Nope, the things I want simply aren't possible to locate closely.
When in a city of half a million there is only 1 such service, it isn't possible for it to be a close walk.

As far as cycling, I'm not crazy.
They went and painted all the bike lanes here GREEN, which shows how little they understand cycling.
Quick question, what is very slippery when wet? 
Answer road paint.

They basically turned all the bike lanes into "slip & slides".... it's all posturing, the "leaders" don't really care about this.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> Nope, the things I want simply aren't possible to locate closely.
> When in a city of half a million there is only 1 such service, it isn't possible for it to be a close walk.
> 
> As far as cycling, I'm not crazy.
> ...


If you can't walk or cycle it, take a bus, uber, taxi, phone a friend, etc. Really depends on how often you have to go to the 1 service location. This isn't for everyone, heck I likely always own a car.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

cainvest said:


> If you can't walk or cycle it, take a bus, uber, taxi, phone a friend, etc. Really depends on how often you have to go to the 1 service location. This isn't for everyone, heck I likely always own a car.


Like I said, the location is too far to walk, the bike lanes are unsafe, the buses are slow.

Uber/taxi/friend, are all individual vehicles, which I agree is a cost calculation on owning a car, and I've said if it supported my needs I'd switch, but for me, it doesn't make sense.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

jlunfirst said:


> I'm sorry to all those who think life is not possible by using transit:


Some people can function using just transit but we can't. Surely you can understand that there are plenty of activities and locations that require a car for access.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

HappilyRetired said:


> Some people can function using just transit but we can't. Surely you can understand that there are plenty of activities and locations that require a car for access.


Sure, it's obvious when Greyhound cut all its bus lines in Canada in 2018.

My partner had a sleep disorder....when his body was still while driving, he would fall asleep. Anyway cycling kept him awake ...a 100 km. bike ride was more invigorating for him than 100 km. drive which was nearly tortuous for him. That's why he rarely drove. We rented a car 2-3 times annually. 

Do understand promoting driving is not great..when alot of people shouldn't be driving but feel forced to.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

jlunfirst said:


> Sure, it's obvious when Greyhound cut all its bus lines in Canada in 2018.
> 
> My partner had a sleep disorder....when his body was still while driving, he would fall asleep. Anyway cycling kept him awake ...a 100 km. bike ride was more invigorating for him than 100 km. drive which was nearly tortuous for him. That's why he rarely drove. We rented a car 2-3 times annually.
> 
> Do understand promoting driving is not great..when alot of people shouldn't be driving but feel forced to.


I've always enjoyed driving. I bought my current house knowing that a vehicle would be required and I'm fine with that. If I didn't like driving I would have chosen to live somewhere more convenient for walking or transit.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

jlunfirst said:


> I'm sorry to all those who think life is not possible by using transit:


Life is possible, but I don't want to live that way.

I don't want to live in some crappy downtown urban hellscape.
I don't want to be unable to get out into nature.
I don't want to spend extra hours to get places.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

MrMatt said:


> Life is possible, but I don't want to live that way.
> 
> I don't want to live in some crappy downtown urban hellscape.
> I don't want to be unable to get out into nature.
> I don't want to spend extra hours to get places.


I live an unusual corner of my city of 1.3 million... 1 block away from a major park system and pathway by Bow River which flows from the Rocky Mountains. Have gone on 60 km. rides in the day, just by staying on parks pathway. If I really wanted to do it. cycle the whole perimeter of city for 140 km. Very light use. I do live in the more scenic areas of the city. Same can be said when living in Vancouver, across from False Creek. 

My partner grew up in a village at the time north of Toronto. He knew it would have been life-limiting to stay/live there. He had to go somewhere else for university and for jobs ...national oil company. I know people who moved from Saskatchewn with several children into a bigger city, so that educational opportunities for children would be greater...not just the institutions but other things to do.

We were very lucky to grow up in K-W where it was already highly unusual to have 2 universities and community college in a much smaller city. That already expands the thinking of locals and introduces other types of businesses. I left the city just when UWO was starting to develop its partnerships with budding high tech firms ...this was early 1980's. I know exactly what it means to bring intellectual capital to a smaller city and how it can make economic base stronger.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

jlunfirst said:


> We were very lucky to grow up in K-W where it was already highly unusual to have 2 universities and community college in a much smaller city. That already expands the thinking of locals and introduces other types of businesses. I left the city just when UWO was starting to develop its partnerships with budding high tech firms ...this was early 1980's. I know exactly what it means to bring intellectual capital to a smaller city and how it can make economic base stronger.


UWO isn't in KW.

KW is a great place to live, particularly since the region had the political will to design in better traffic flow. Something other cities, like the city hosting UWO, could learn from.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

MrMatt said:


> UWO isn't in KW.
> 
> KW is a great place to live, particularly since the region had the political will to design in better traffic flow. Something other cities, like the city hosting UWO, could learn from.


Yea my misspelling U of W. I spent 2 yrs. before transferring to UWO. I attended an info. session where there was alot of excitement putting the complete Bible online. Those were the days in 1980.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Life is very possible to live without a car, lots of ways to get around if you want to live that lifestyle. Just remember there are people, like myself, that really enjoy driving ... on road, off road, 4 and 2 wheels and even some competitive closed course racing for fun. Even with multiple vehicles I still do walk (mainly with my dog) and bicycle around the city when the weather permits.


I would give someone $100 or more if they could tell me how my family could continue to live the lifestyle we do (so not dropping off the key activities) without a car. 

When you have kids in activities, a car is required. If they are in anything specialized, even more so. Moving to a walking location is not possible. I did a little map that outlined our driving and time to see if I could some how even reduce the amount of time I was in a car. It actually justified us getting a third for my teenager so she could help with the driving. Some highlights:

My youngest's school is a specialized learning program SW of my home. There is a school bus, however they didn't have a driver until almost the end of October. Parents were told to they would have to find a way to get their kids to school, or ride on the merge bus which got them to school 1.5 hours late EVERY morning and was 2 hour ride on the way home. If your kid is on any after school team (mine are), you have to pick them up from practice, and drive them to the games. It's 16km on highway, or a 2 bus & 2 train ride (3 transfers) plus 12 minute walk of just under 3 hours at each way. She has a bus now.
Her competitive sports team gym moved across the city to an industrial area. Again, 2 buses, 2 trains and a 20 minute walk, in to high crime areas where I would even park my car in. 18 km NE of our home, and almost 28 from her school in the opposite direction, It takes me 50 minutes to driive her to the gym from her school if there is medium traffic. She would never make it in time otherwsie.
Private coach is just NW of of the City and 15Km on country roads. They charge us a 1/4 of the price for lessons than ones in the city and the guy is great, so $200 in monthly savings, but they are only reachable by car. He was saying it took him 40 minutes to bike in the other day, but almost got ran over in a ditch with the snow.
Now kid 2; my teenage driver. Her school is only 13 km again,, specialized program for what she wants to do. She used to take the bus. However, same with after school programs, it was much harder and if it got too late, a little sketchy.
In competitive soccer, due to her age category her games are late and now busable. I am not sure some of the fields are in the city sometimes. Her current games have her driving to the far SE 30km and NW 15 km at 10 pm on a sunday. No bus. I looked a uber at it was $80 one time. We do get some carpooling but cannot rely on it.
Work for kid, at all hours, I would normally drive her, but this is one of the reasons we got the car.

These are the big things that my kids are at up to 5 times for each activity. Add in appointments, dr's and other things, We would have to drop something. Since we have vehicles, we dont

-


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> I would give someone $100 or more if they could tell me how my family could continue to live the lifestyle we do (so not dropping off the key activities) without a car.
> 
> When you have kids in activities, a car is required. If they are in anything specialized, even more so.


I'd pay way more than $100 if I could figure out how to get rid of even the second car.

Kids in competitive sports are a HUGE investment for the parents, and it's simply not possible without a car in most areas.
The games are in different cities, you have equipment, and the coaching/practice programs aren't everywhere.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Plugging Along said:


> I would give someone $100 or more if they could tell me how my family could continue to live the lifestyle we do (so not dropping off the key activities) without a car....


They can't tell you how but that won't stop them from lecturing.

Of all the people I know there is only one person that I know that lives without a car. They live in a small apartment on a bus route just outside of downtown so getting to work is easy. But they have no real hobbies and don't have to try to get to a ball diamond or a golf course that might be miles from a bus stop. They have no kids so they don't have to transport them to their activities. They don't own a cabin or go to the beach so no car needed for that either. Both of her parents are dead so they don't need to visit or check up on them. If we invite her to our place it's two different buses so at least 40 minutes including wait time, then a 1.5 km walk, call it 1 hour.

Sure, some people can live without a car. But it's almost impossible if you have certain hobbies, own a house that's not close to a bus stop, have kids, or do anything that's outside of the city.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

HappilyRetired said:


> Sure, some people can live without a car. But it's almost impossible if you have certain hobbies, own a house that's not close to a bus stop, have kids, or do anything that's outside of the city.


I have only heard of one range that is on a bus route.

Even then it's quite common for public transit to prohibit firearms.
Even a gun case is often enough to get harrassed by police etc.
I know someone who does medieval re-enactments, and he has been stopped many times for his swords inside a gun case.
Also fishing rod cases often get mistaken.
Fencing.

I couldn't imagine the chaos if a hockey team tried to fit on a city bus.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> I would give someone $100 or more if they could tell me how my family could continue to live the lifestyle we do (so not dropping off the key activities) without a car.


That's the thing, for most people their lifestyle would have to change significantly. A car equals convenience but comes at a price that most are very willing to pay.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

cainvest said:


> That's the thing, for most people their lifestyle would have to change significantly. A car equals convenience but comes at a price that most are very willing to pay.


It's the guys like Trudeau flying around on private jets who want the rest of us to change.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

cainvest said:


> That's the thing, for most people their lifestyle would have to change significantly. A car equals convenience but comes at a price that most are very willing to pay.


I'm willing to pay the price to own a car, it was one of the factors considered when I bought my current house. It was worth it for 2 acres of open space, privacy, and lack of noise.

If someone wants to live in a tiny 600 sq ft condo in noisy and crowded downtown that's their right, too. We're both entitled to live how we want.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Plugging Along said:


> I would give someone $100 or more if they could tell me how my family could continue to live the lifestyle we do (so not dropping off the key activities) without a car.


I think we all agree that's not viable unless you move to a city where it is viable. As most people said, in Canada, we've built cities for cars, so the issue here is not the people's behaviour, but the city designing. Obviously people won't get rid of their cars when they don't have viable alternatives. Also, cars will always be there, the goal is mainly to design cities for people (not for cars) so that we can greatly reduce the need to use a car for most of our activities, and use cars only for a few specific cases. I live in Montreal, I definitely don't need a car and I'd also be super happy to get rid of my car, yet I own a car because both my parents and my wife's parents live at places we can't reach without a car, and even carsharing would be much more expensive than owning a car. I'll get rid of the car as soon as we don't have to visit them anymore.

And at the moment, most governments in Canada are investing in solutions which are increasing urban sprawl, so that's frustrating. In Quebec they simply want to add more roads, more lanes, more tunnels, more bridges. But more public transportation? Oops.


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## Eager Beaver (11 mo ago)

The way our country has developed, the lifestyles we live, our social network, vacations, and lots more are a product of easy, cheap transportation. Well that was all fine and dandy for the past 100 years. That was how we lived, with out knowing the consequences. Here we are today with a massive country of people that had freedom to travel with ease. Now its catching up to us. Carbon emissions. Climate change. The weaponizing of fossil fuels. Its sure a different picture now than when Henry Ford was popping out millions of 1922 year mode T automobiles.

What took centuries to build cannot be un-done quickly. Most are not ready give up our lifestyles so that we don’t need to own a car. Its still too soon. It will take generations to change. Those resistant to change will probably be forced to change. Or go broke fighting the change.

The way things are headed isn’t good. Maybe in due time there will be a mass migration from the country side to urban centers. By 2050 perhaps the majority of Canadians will be car-less. We shall see. Most of us who lived in the greatest times of this planet will be gone. Cultural change will come.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> I would give someone $100 or more if they could tell me how my family could continue to live the lifestyle we do (so not dropping off the key activities) without a car.
> 
> When you have kids in activities, a car is required. If they are in anything specialized, even more so. Moving to a walking location is not possible. I did a little map that outlined our driving and time to see if I could some how even reduce the amount of time I was in a car. It actually justified us getting a third for my teenager so she could help with the driving. Some highlights:
> 
> ...


The defect is the way we design cities. In some countries, kids can get themselves to school, and to most of their activities, independently. In Canada that is child endangerment.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Eager Beaver said:


> The way our country has developed, the lifestyles we live, our social network, vacations, and lots more are a product of easy, cheap transportation. Well that was all fine and dandy for the past 100 years. That was how we lived, with out knowing the consequences. Here we are today with a massive country of people that had freedom to travel with ease. Now its catching up to us. Carbon emissions. Climate change. The weaponizing of fossil fuels. Its sure a different picture now than when Henry Ford was popping out millions of 1922 year mode T automobiles.
> 
> What took centuries to build cannot be un-done quickly. Most are not ready give up our lifestyles so that we don’t need to own a car. Its still too soon. It will take generations to change. Those resistant to change will probably be forced to change. Or go broke fighting the change.
> 
> The way things are headed isn’t good. Maybe in due time there will be a mass migration from the country side to urban centers. By 2050 perhaps the majority of Canadians will be car-less. We shall see. Most of us who lived in the greatest times of this planet will be gone. Cultural change will come.


It's not even about not owning a car. It's more about not being forced to use it in order for function. Even in countries where cities are walkable/cyclable/transit friendly, a significant proportion of people commute to work by car. But your grocery shopping, school drop offs, visiting friends, dentist visits etc. are doable without getting in your car.

I live 8 km from work. I could in theory bike to work. My office doesn't have decent bike parking however, and I would probably use an ebike if I rode to work. Pretty much all my daily needs I could easily reach by walking or biking. I have a car because I live in a huge city, and I have friends and family that live far away, and I can afford it. Also, an 8km commute is really not that bad.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

andrewf said:


> It's not even about not owning a car. It's more about not being forced to use it in order for function. Even in countries where cities are walkable/cyclable/transit friendly, a significant proportion of people commute to work by car. But your grocery shopping, school drop offs, visiting friends, dentist visits etc. are doable without getting in your car.
> 
> I like 8 km from work. I could in theory bike to work. My office doesn't have decent bike parking however, and I would probably use an ebike if I rode to work. Pretty much all my daily needs I could easily reach by walking or biking. I have a car because I live in a huge city, and I have friends and family that live far away, and I can afford it. Also, an 8km commute is really not that bad.


Various bike commuting distances I had for different employers. 
When in Toronto, I had a 32 km. round trip bike commute through its interconnected parks pathway system from suburbs or other route, just shorter by a few hundred metres, Waterfront Trail along Lake Ontario into downtown Toronto. Course winter it was subway. 1 of the employers moved to North York, so I just couldn't do it efficiently. So alas I did have to take subway to get home. Then jump onto bike for exercise...I didn't like that.

Some employers I lived so close, that I would double distance bike commute ride, ie. through Stanley Park in VAncouver before getting into office. So riding in the dark around 6:30 am....  
Another commute ride involved ride to Skytrain station with bike and get off, park bike in bike locker. Get onto a bus to get out suburbs. Got off to walk 15 min. to construction site where I worked. After work, my retired partner met me at bike locker station and we would ride home together...about 15 km. That was a very long commute. I kept telling myself only for a contract job. 

I presently only have a 15-20 bike commute ride during cycling season to office. Bike collective cage is free to employees with key card access. Yes, pre-covid the cage got full..over 130 bikes.

It truly is combined transportation, destressor and fitness rolled in 1.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

It's kind of funny. I like going for 20-25km daily rides when the weather is nice/dry to unwind, which is actually longer than my round-trip commute to work. I would use an ebike for riding to work to avoid being a sweaty mess. I'm not really interested in having to shower at work, etc.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> I like going for 20-25km daily rides when the weather is nice/dry to unwind, which is actually longer than my round-trip commute to work.


Same here. Sometimes it's a 30 min sprint other times I do 2+ hours. I do mix up the rides, sometimes bike paths only and other times I throw in some gravel/dirt trails.

My commute to work is very short so cycling doesn't work for me.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Clearly this article today on Global Liveability Index is not considering cost of housing / rent, etc. There may be some boosterism by some folks behind the index info. coordinators.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

jlunfirst said:


> Clearly this article today on Global Liveability Index is not considering cost of housing / rent, etc. There may be some boosterism by some folks behind the index info. coordinators.
> 
> 
> View attachment 23948


Their rating scale might appeal to a few people, but bragging about green and low carbon doesn't really help if you can't afford to live there.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I live 8 km from work. I could in theory bike to work. My office doesn't have decent bike parking however, and I would probably use an ebike if I rode to work. Pretty much all my daily needs I could easily reach by walking or biking. I have a car because I live in a huge city, and I have friends and family that live far away, and I can afford it. Also, an 8km commute is really not that bad.


Yeah, same here - 8 km each way. I've biked it before, and well, it sucked. Hills, long stretches of narrow road with no shoulder, several poorly lit sections, and two busy intersections. Drivers doing 20 km/h over the limit, not expecting to encounter a cyclist because there isn't one 99.9% of the time. A cyclist was actually killed on my exact route, which is amazing considering how rarely I see one. I'm sure I would be a statistic by now if I biked to work every day. No thanks!


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

nathan79 said:


> Yeah, same here - 8 km each way. I've biked it before, and well, it sucked. Hills, long stretches of narrow road with no shoulder, several poorly lit sections, and two busy intersections.


I avoid bad/busy roads which means taking the long way around. Sure it might be 5km extra on a 10km ride but it's worth it to be safe.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

cainvest said:


> I avoid bad/busy roads which means taking the long way around. Sure it might be 5km extra on a 10km ride but it's worth it to be safe.


That's me too. Sure some of our bike paths means away from direct road for destinations. My response: I'm happier, safer and it's just more enjoyable. Period.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

nathan79 said:


> Yeah, same here - 8 km each way. I've biked it before, and well, it sucked. Hills, long stretches of narrow road with no shoulder, several poorly lit sections, and two busy intersections. Drivers doing 20 km/h over the limit, not expecting to encounter a cyclist because there isn't one 99.9% of the time. A cyclist was actually killed on my exact route, which is amazing considering how rarely I see one. I'm sure I would be a statistic by now if I biked to work every day. No thanks!


My route is actually mostly (off road) multi-use path. The dodgiest part was a highway underpass which was recently rebuilt with separated sidewalk. I haven't ridden it yet, but it seems much improved. Still, crossing intersections is risky.


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