# Undercover billionaire



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

There are a lot of naysayers in this forum who resist any attempt by someone to suggest that there are better ways to make money than investing in the stock market, etc. Any suggestion that someone try investing their time and money in some other way, meets with derision and excuses about 'high risk' etc. Well, I wonder how they are going to excuse their low expectations and results in light of this new documentary/reality series.

Google the title of this thread and you will see what I am talking about. A billionaire takes on the challenge of building $1,000,000.00 in 90 days. 

No he doesn't start out with a billion to work with, he starts with $100 and an old pickup truck. He is 'undercover' and is not allowed to use any of his wealth or connections to succeed. He does not even get to pick where he will attempt this. He is taken to Erie, Pennsylvania which has gone through hard times in the last few decades and has record high unemployment and business failures/closings. In other words, about as hard a place to try and make it happen as can be found in N. America. 

The only true statement I expect this will elicit from the naysayers is something like, 'well, yeah, maybe he could do it, but I couldn't.' 

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...&ved=0ahUKEwjjsvvY4YLkAhVDa80KHa5LD3IQ4dUDCAo


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Does he succeed by getting a union job and a DB Pension plan?


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

All I saw was an ad for an upcoming "Reality TV" series. If it's like the rest, it will be more TV than reality.

But, is it possible to make a million dollars in 90 days starting with a second hand pickup truck, a cell phone, and $100? I wouldn't bet against him if you eliminate the time constraint. But under the circumstances I would bet against him doing it in 90 days.

I could see it being possible if he did a bunch of no money down real estate deals, and ended up with a net worth of a million.

To break it down - suppose he could get $4 million worth of property under contract, with equity of 25%. There's your million. If Erie PA is a depressed area and houses are worth $100,000 that would mean buying 40 of them for $75,000 apiece, doing some fix up and renting them. Could this be done in 90 days? It would take some hustle but there is a small chance he could pull it off.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I remember the guy who traded one red paperclip all the way to a house, but that took a while. I can see a guy with being able to do it, but 90 days would be tough. 

I doubt he can do it with real estate as he has no identity so he can’t borrow money.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

Might be worth a watch. Just scheduled it on the PVR but looks like I missed episode 1


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

I have heard of millionaires who said if they lost all their money they could make it back in 5 years, using the knowledge they had. Some have done it. It's an interesting concept for a show.


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## MarcoE (May 3, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> There are a lot of naysayers in this forum who resist any attempt by someone to suggest that there are better ways to make money than investing in the stock market, etc.


Who says this? Investing isn't about getting rich quick. You get rich with a good job or a good business, then you invest your profits responsibly.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Saw an ad for this show a month or two bag. seemed interesting. Mind you, he's not trying to have 1mil in cash at the end of 90 days, just a business worth that much according to some business valuation specialists.

I've always thought it I was to lose everything tomorrow, I'd be able to build it back up. Not in 90 days mind you, but in under 10 years.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mechanic said:


> Might be worth a watch. Just scheduled it on the PVR but looks like I missed episode 1


What you missed. He starts out with the goal of making $3300 in his first week. That's how much he figures it will take to live on for 3 months, so he wants to get that out of the way so he can concentrate on finding a way to get to his goal without being distracted by lack of food and a bed to sleep in.

He spends night 1 sleeping in the truck. First day he decides to try and scavenge things people want to buy but has no luck. Succumbs to renting a hotel room for $51 to get a hot shower. For the rest of the first week he sleeps in the truck. He tries a commission job selling squeaky toys for dogs with no luck. Gets a half day's work printing t-shirts and makes $60, cleans a guy's house for $80 and then has an idea. It's St. Patrick's day and he gets the t-shirt guy to go out with him to sell directly to the public during the parade etc. He INVESTS all the money he has in buying souvenir items. He's down to his last $4 and is 'all in' on this idea. They sell out once they hit a bar full of people and he ends the week with $400. 

Not his $3300 goal and he admits it is looking harder than he had thought, perhaps he was a bit too 'cocky' as he admits on camera. 

So now you're up to date Mechanic and next week will show what it shows us.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

MarcoE said:


> Who says this? Investing isn't about getting rich quick. You get rich with a good job or a good business, then you invest your profits responsibly.


No one said you have to get rich quick MarcoE. Investing is about investing period, getting quick results is just a bonus. Where did you read anything in what I wrote about getting rich quick? I wrote that the, *"naysayers in this forum who resist any attempt by someone to suggest that there are better ways to make money than investing in the stock market, etc."*

Your definition of 'responsibly' I am sure would not include investing down to your last $4 to buy souvenirs to sell in a bar to St. Patrick's Day celebrants. So I'm guessing, given the same situation being applied to you, at the end of the first week, your $100 would have been spent 'responsibly' and you would be broke and give up.

So yeah, I'd say you've pretty much proved my point that the only likely true statement I'll hear from you would be something like, *'well, yeah, maybe he could do it, but I couldn't.' *and that's dependent on you admitting you already know you couldn't do it but don't know if he can. It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy MarcoE, look it up.

While you're at it, you may want to consider how your self-fulfilling prophecy differs from his self-fulfilling prophecy.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Well we all know reality tv never uses a script or influences any action or outcome right?


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

There are some fantastic opportunities if you know where to look. I knew a guy who made a living selling paper towels to businesses. This took him all around the country. He used to tell me about deals on boats, cars, houses etc he heard about by word of mouth that nobody else was bidding on. One time he was offered 20 rolls of special fibreglass used in boat building for $50 apiece. I looked it up on the net and the stuff was worth $2100 a roll. I suggested he call on some boat builders and fibreglass companies. Don't know if he did that deal, but I know he did other deals. Like buy a non running Porsche for $500 and sell it to me 3 days later for $2475.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

There's an interesting online article about him: 

https://www.nickiswift.com/161411/glenn-stearns-the-truth-about-the-undercover-billionaire/

He definitely has the rags to riches background, although as an odd coincidence, his namesake company (Stearns Lending) just declared bankruptcy last month.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

You did read he part where he only controlled 30% of the company. Probably not really his fault it failed.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> You did read he part where he only controlled 30% of the company. Probably not really his fault it failed.


You did read the fact that I said odd coincidence. I didn't say that it was his fault it went bankrupt.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Another fairy thread by LTA!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> Does he succeed by getting a union job and a DB Pension plan?


I don't think that was ever in his plans Just a Guy. LOL

Those workers discovered the realities of life when 30,000 jobs disappeared from Erie. Yet were dumb enough to believe Trump when he told them he would bring their jobs back.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/america-manufacturing-erie-pennsylvania/


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

kcowan said:


> Another fairy thread by LTA!


What's a 'fairy thread' kcowan? Please try to communicate clearly what it is you want to say. Are you trying to say regardless of the outcome, you believe without having seen the program, that it is a made up fairy tale? In other words, faked?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> There are some fantastic opportunities if you know where to look. I knew a guy who made a living selling paper towels to businesses. This took him all around the country. He used to tell me about deals on boats, cars, houses etc he heard about by word of mouth that nobody else was bidding on. One time he was offered 20 rolls of special fibreglass used in boat building for $50 apiece. I looked it up on the net and the stuff was worth $2100 a roll. I suggested he call on some boat builders and fibreglass companies. Don't know if he did that deal, but I know he did other deals. Like buy a non running Porsche for $500 and sell it to me 3 days later for $2475.


Years ago Rusty O'Toole, when I was living in Calgary (late 60s), I knew a guy who started a business with a pickup truck and a small trailer he pulled behind it. Calgary changed their Bylaw regarding the burning of trash in the backyard. People used to have a 55 gal. steel drum in their backyards and would burn trash in them. It was a pretty common practice in many places. Calgary passed a new Bylaw that prohibited homeowners from doing that.

So this guy had this simple idea. What were people now going to do with these ugly barrels they could no longer use? So he started going around knocking on doors and offering to haul their barrel away to the city dump for people, for $10. Within 2 weeks he had 2 other guys working for him. From there he expanded into hauling away anything anyone wanted to get rid off. Clear out a garage, clear out an attic, empty a house, haul away old scrap cars, etc. etc. Manpower, a container and your problem is gone.

A guy without a high school diploma, an old truck and an idea. He turned it into a business and did very well indeed. But I suppose the naysayers will have some excuse for why someone couldn't do as well today with some other idea and a willingness to give it a try.


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## MarcoE (May 3, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> No one said you have to get rich quick MarcoE . . . Where did you read anything in what I wrote about getting rich quick?


The OP is about how you can start with nothing and become a billionaire in 90 days. 90 days is pretty quick.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I’ve been thinking about this, and I’ve nearly got there. I hang out at a lot of farmer’s markets, learned a lot about business there actually, mostly from watching people fail, but also from their success.

When Starting out with $100, you could sell homemade candy. I know a vendor who has costs of $6/Kg and sells it for $45. Makes about $3,000/day. So, with $100, you could make $750 the first day and then max out the second. Then I know this meat pie company which averages $10,000/day in sales, their costs vary depending on the pie. If you hired someone to keep the candy sales going, and started the meat pie sales, you theoretically could get to $1M if everything went well. The poutine guy probably has even better margins, and it would be easier than meat pies. 

Do I think this likely, not really, but it is theoretically possible with a lot of luck. Could you make a million in a year? Pretty sure you could.

Regardless, you could get pretty close selling specialty foods which, even the poor spend money on. Consumables are the key.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

Thanks for the update on the first episode LTA.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

MarcoE said:


> The OP is about how you can start with nothing and become a billionaire in 90 days. 90 days is pretty quick.


Million, not billion.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Longtimeago said:


> Years ago Rusty O'Toole, when I was living in Calgary (late 60s), I knew a guy who started a business with a pickup truck and a small trailer he pulled behind it. Calgary changed their Bylaw regarding the burning of trash in the backyard. People used to have a 55 gal. steel drum in their backyards and would burn trash in them. It was a pretty common practice in many places. Calgary passed a new Bylaw that prohibited homeowners from doing that.
> 
> So this guy had this simple idea. What were people now going to do with these ugly barrels they could no longer use? So he started going around knocking on doors and offering to haul their barrel away to the city dump for people, for $10. Within 2 weeks he had 2 other guys working for him. From there he expanded into hauling away anything anyone wanted to get rid off. Clear out a garage, clear out an attic, empty a house, haul away old scrap cars, etc. etc. Manpower, a container and your problem is gone.
> 
> A guy without a high school diploma, an old truck and an idea. He turned it into a business and did very well indeed. But I suppose the naysayers will have some excuse for why someone couldn't do as well today with some other idea and a willingness to give it a try.


I had an uncle like that. He was raised in northern Ontario where educational opportunities were limited 70 or 80 years ago and was nearly illiterate. He started a business picking up garbage from cottages that were not served by municipal waste pickup. With an old pickup truck, natch. Later he went around picking up grease from restaurants and selling it to soap and cosmetic companies. At one time he bid on the contract to pick up the town's garbage but lost out to someone who bid lower. But the low bidder went bust, so they came to my uncle. He told them he couldn't do it for the original bid, but could if they would pay 30% more. He got it.

Last time I saw him he was going on an extended vacation, with a brand new Ford Club Wagon van towing a 35 foot trailer. By this time his sons were running the business, he didn't expect to go home for a year, after touring North America.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

...another realty series? UGH! how low-brow. how gauche.
I cant stand 'em. my brain starts to hurt after watching a few minutes of all the 3-second scenes, and the cameras zooming in & out...
why do they feel they have to do that? would the shows be abosolutelt TOO boring, without it?
which bachelor won the prize? zzzzzzzzzzzzzz....


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

You may notice, only one person seems to have watched it. It’s more the concept that seems to be being discussed.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MarcoE said:


> Who says this? Investing isn't about getting rich quick. You get rich with a good job or a good business, then you invest your profits responsibly.


That's my view as well. My investments are to preserve wealth and get a reasonable real return.

I don't think I will get rich by investing in stocks. I think I will get rich by working and/or creating a business. The stocks & bonds are for wealth storage.


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## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

Just a Guy said:


> When Starting out with $100, you could sell homemade candy. I know a vendor who has costs of $6/Kg and sells it for $45. Makes about $3,000/day. So, with $100, you could make $750 the first day and then max out the second.


I don’t think so. 

Sugar is $2-$3 a kilogram. Now our new candy maker merely needs to pay for:
-all his other ingredients 
-food-handling training
-a commercial kitchen
-a delivery vehicle 
-etc

These are fun fantasies. But as realistic ways of building short-term wealth they have all the structural integrity of candy floss.

All get-rich schemes are lotteries. Yes, they can technically pay off. But 99.999999% wind up poorer.
I think this is where kcowan’s fairy-tale comment comes from. 
Telling a story about turning $1,000 into a real-estate empire is just that — a story. It doesn’t make it wrong, it just doesn’t make it a likely outcome.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

We all know people like YOU can’t do it. 

One can borrow a kitchen by talking nicely to a restaurant. Many owners would be willing to help a guy out. Or, one can rent a community league kitchen. When I was president of ours, we’d rent for as little as $50/day or even forgive the rental all together. 

As I said, the cost to make candy was $6/kg all ingredients and packaging included. You don’t need food handling or permits for a farmer’s market. You also don’t need a delivery truck, since you’re only producing a few kgs of food. As for difficulty of making the stuff, my kids and I have made a wide variety of candy, it’s very easy to do and tastes a lot better. 

Thank you for proving you have no experience or knowledge about the topic, your opinion is valued at the appropriate level. Have you ever even attended a farmers market, let alone talk to a vendor? People like you can only see the negatives and why, you think, it can’t be done. Problem is, I actually know people doing this so they prove you wrong by their very existence. 

Keep reading Aesop’s fables. The sour grapes one would be your favourite.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Where does one immediately find a market for $3k worth of candy (60kgs of candy, or enough sugar for 2400 people to have 200 calories worth of candy) on your first day of operations?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

If you read I didn’t say first day, in fact you couldn’t make that much with only $100. The guy who works farmers markets in my town goes around to a different one each day in my city. He makes an average of $3000/day. BTW, never seen anyone concerned about calories at any farmer’s market I’ve ever attended, and I’ve been to ones across the country. Not even Vancouver. Imagine 10k worth of meat pies now and it would blow your mind probably. There are many successful entrepreneurs who work in farmer’s markets...there are also a lot of duds. Maybe I’ll ask the poutine guy next, it strikes me as having better margins. I don’t really eat poutine very often, I do like the handmade candy and meat pies though. 

The guy I know who runs a bagel franchise has lost his shirt. He barely breaks even because of his lease, and basically works for free, but he’s locked into contracts.

People should really talk to owners and see how the real world works, or doesn’t. Some are excellent business guys. Great marketing, great salesmen, great products. Could really teach you something if you were more open minded. You know there is a reason why some people succeed at straight commission sales and others fail. 

Keep looking for reasons to fail, it will keep you successful at failing.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

You will need food handling certificates and health permits to sell any food in our farmer's markets, so you need to add those to the cost.

Fortunately the health department doesn't let anyone come in and sell meat pies without passing some inspections first.

The roadside food trucks are regularly inspected as well.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Normally I no longer read sag’s posts but, if the food is all prepackaged, you don’t need a food handling or inspections. Only if you serve hot food and touch it. That being said, if you’re making 3k/day to start, then 13k running both businesses, and maybe 5k more from poutine, I think you can easily manage those costs...even hiring people to run two other stands. The permits are cheap.

Next you’ll say it will fail because the booth charge at a farmer’s market can run $10-$50. My word, how would one ever afford that? May as well roll over and die. No hope to break even with those costs. Where’s a union job when I need it?

Keep thinking of ways you can fail, the ones who succeed look for ways to succeed. 

I come up with three good businesses, of course One could also do slow cooker pulled pork, which is what I had for dinner, maybe a bul-go-gi dinner which I make all the time...these would give good margins too. It explains the difference in our net worths I’m sure. I see opportunities you see impossible. Stick with a paycheque, I hear Walmart hires seniors.

Just saw a Thai woman who came to the USA a couple years ago with $300 in her pocket. She now has her own restaurant and was competing on iron chef gauntlet. There’s a real difference in attitude when you’re broke than when you’ve lead a comfortable life. I’ve seen both sides fortunately.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Just a Guy said:


> Keep looking for reasons to fail, it will keep you successful at failing.


 The majority view is wrong. It should be keep looking for reasons to fail & you will be successful @ not failing i.e., the government always tries to fix problems & the unintended consequences almost always makes matters worse. It is important to know what not to do.


At the bottom of the depression people are in a negative mood & are looking @ why the economy & market will keep heading down. The masses are wrong & looking for reasons for failing causes the complete opposite success. This is true @ the cycle tops everyone is looking through rose colored glasses & the opposite happens the economy heads down.


Mans biological distinguishable trait is his ability to think. In order to survive man must examine ideas both positively & negatively


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Most people don’t think. They follow the herd. They attack people who think differently than the herd, just look at this forum.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Just a Guy said:


> Most people don’t think. They follow the herd. They attack people who think differently than the herd, just look at this forum.


 Totally agree as can be witnessed in the education bubble of memorize & repeat instead of thinking of how to proceed with an endeavor


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Just a Guy said:


> Most people don’t think. They follow the herd. They attack people who think differently than the herd, just look at this forum.


 Read a study which came to the conclusion that humility caused the greatest emotional stress in people. It takes a lot of courage to not take comfort in the herd & be an independent thinker, Though the laws of logic & principals of thought to cultivate truth is not taught in school & how many people uses mans biological trait reason as their gauge for esteem.

Since esteem is a value judgement a standard must be used for gauging ones esteem their can only be ones best of anything. The only rational standard for gauging ones esteem is commitment to reason.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Yes, the naysayers have all the reasons for why something just won't work for THEM. Obviously, since they already know what the outcome will be, they never even bother to try something to start with. Why would they, they know they will fail. 

Now why is it that when I have looked at some ideas, I haven't had the benefit of their insight to tell me that I was doomed to failure? Instead, I've gone off and tried some of them and while I freely admit some have indeed failed, others have been very profitable indeed. 

So as I see it, the question is, where does the bottom line end up? Well, I managed to retire after 7 years from 'ground zero' and then managed to remain retired for 30 years without ever having invested in the stock market and finally, my net worth today is greater than it was when I retired 30 years ago. So obviously for me, the bottom line is the successes have outdone the failures. Just beginners luck I suppose. LOL

There was another TV series a few years back that I found interesting. It is called Around the World in 80 Trades. But it isn't referring to 80 stock market trades. It is about an English guy who quits his job and sets off with 25,000 GBP to see what he can do by trading his way around the world. After 6 months and visiting 16 countries buying and selling everything from camels to wine to teak wood, he ends up with a 25,000 GBP profit. So he doubled his money in those 6 months. On some trades he did well and on others he lost money but in the end, he came out ahead with a 100% profit. Not too shabby.

I'm trying to imagine some of the posters here contemplating such an idea. I'm having trouble though seeing them getting on a plane to fly to Cairo and trying to negotiate to buy some camels. I mean, imagine what could go wrong with that idea!

The 4 episodes are all on YouTube:

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...hUKEwikuajHyYfkAhUCXKwKHcd8DYoQ4dUDCAo&uact=5


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> You will need food handling certificates and health permits to sell any food in our farmer's markets, so you need to add those to the cost.
> 
> Fortunately the health department doesn't let anyone come in and sell meat pies without passing some inspections first.
> 
> The roadside food trucks are regularly inspected as well.


Seriously? Again I must ask what world you live in.

As it happens, there is a farmer's market just down the road from our home every Saturday during the summer. I walk over and buy a homemade apply pie wrapped in Saran Wrap from a farmer's wife who bakes a dozen or so in her farmhouse and drives them to the market in the back of her pickup truck. No commercial kitchen involved and certainly no inspections by the Health Department. 

Then I go to the next farmer's wife who sells me some carrots, potatoes, etc. that she has pulled out of the ground with her bare hands early that morning. Not only doesn't she follow any kind of Health Department guidelines on food handling, she doesn't even wash the dirt off the veggies.

All of the vendors take cash only, no tax charged, no receipts provided. Yes, it's all highly illegal no doubt but here's the thing sags. It happens and they walk away with presumably a nice little profit in their pocket.

But you apparently THINK you know better. You know they have to have a permit, they have to follow the Health department's guidelines, they have to be inspected. You know all that but apparently they don't. So here's the thing sags. According to what you know, their idea was doomed to failure before they even started and they never should have started. But in their 'ignorance' of what you know sags, they did start and amazingly, they are making money every Saturday. 

If I recall correctly sags you live in London, Ontario. Perhaps you are thinking of the Covent Garden Market in downtown London. A great place, I like it a lot, just like Toronto's St. Lawrence Market, only smaller. But it is not really a 'farmer's market'. It is a collection of vendors permanently doing business in a building. I have no doubt they are inspected and have to meet Health Department standards etc. 

But there is a whole world outside of your little world sags and unless you go out into that world and see for yourself, your perception of what is and is not the case, will always be limited. So don't write, "You will need..... to sell .....our farmer's markets'", when really you are only referring to SOME of OUR markets.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> Where does one immediately find a market for $3k worth of candy (60kgs of candy, or enough sugar for 2400 people to have 200 calories worth of candy) on your first day of operations?


Umm, how about a candy store? LOL, can you not see that when you write what you did, you are ASSUMING you can't find such a market? You've decided it doesn't exist rather than actually trying to answer your own question. How about online? Have you never watched the Dragon's Den? How many businesses have been on their with someone sailing cupcakes online and mailing them out to customers all over N. America, from their home kitchen? My guess is at least hundreds. 

Why do you say, "on your first day"? Would it not be enough to work up to doing $3k per day? Is that not possible? Trying to say, 'no, you can't do that on your first day', does not make it impossible to do it PER DAY down the line a bit does it? It does not make it not worth trying to do at all does it? It doesn't guarantee failure does it?

If you start out thinking 'it can't be done', you will be proven right, YOU will not be able to do it. That's guaranteed.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If people are going to sell food illegally, charge cash and not pay taxes, they will want to add future lawyer's fees to their cost.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> Now why is it that when I have looked at some ideas, I haven't had the benefit of their insight to tell me that I was doomed to failure? Instead, I've gone off and tried some of them and while I freely admit some have indeed failed, others have been very profitable indeed ...
> 
> I managed to retire after 7 years from 'ground zero' and then managed to remain retired for 30 years without ever having invested in the stock market and finally, my net worth today is greater than it was when I retired 30 years ago. So obviously for me, the bottom line is the successes have outdone the failures.



agog to hear the details of your successes .each:

btw did u know that the duration of your "working" life keeps getting shorter & shorter as you post along. Here we seem to be down to only 7 years of gainful employment, followed by lucrative successes w camels & such ... or am i not getting it quite correctly ...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Details are sparse and hard to drag out of the CMF rags to riches crowd. 

I am still thinking about people buying un-inspected meat pies from a stranger at a market.

Ants are smarter than that. They find a piece of food and drag it back home. A couple of ants try it out and the rest of the ants wait to see what happens. If the ants survive they all dig in.

How does one do that with meat pies purchased from a stranger at a market ? Serve it to someone you don't like first and see what happens ?


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## Dilbert (Nov 20, 2016)

^I guess only the unionised ants, with full medical coverage :tongue:


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Umm, how about a candy store? LOL, can you not see that when you write what you did, you are ASSUMING you can't find such a market? You've decided it doesn't exist rather than actually trying to answer your own question. How about online? Have you never watched the Dragon's Den? How many businesses have been on their with someone sailing cupcakes online and mailing them out to customers all over N. America, from their home kitchen? My guess is at least hundreds.
> 
> Why do you say, "on your first day"? Would it not be enough to work up to doing $3k per day? Is that not possible? Trying to say, 'no, you can't do that on your first day', does not make it impossible to do it PER DAY down the line a bit does it? It does not make it not worth trying to do at all does it? It doesn't guarantee failure does it?
> 
> If you start out thinking 'it can't be done', you will be proven right, YOU will not be able to do it. That's guaranteed.


You can set up a candy store with $100? Please demo. JAG is arguing that it is trivial to immediately (he said by day 2) build a $3k profit per day business with no prior connections, knowledge or assets beyond a crisp $100 bill.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

What connections do you need to make/sell candy? The tooth fairy as an advisor???

What knowledge do you need, can you not read and follow a recipe???

What assets do you need, can you not buy basic groceries???

Make stuff at $6/kg sell it for $40-45/kg. If it’s good people will buy it. Hand out samples with the otherwise waste product that is too small to sell. P

You make product, put it in a bag and sell it. This isn’t rocket science. My 8 year old makes homemade candy without help. I was just in a store the other day, for $3.95 you could get a bamboo skewer (dollar store 100 for $1) with a few gummies stuck on it. Less than 50 cents/100g. Heck, it’s probably less than 10 cents to produce, it may have had 10 gummies maximum, no skills required. Sell them for a buck or two to every kid you see and make 100-200x your investment. 

Face it andrew, you have no idea how to run a business. You’ve got no desire or drive to succeed, you’ve never been broke and can’t understand how that can inspire creativity over negativity. When you’re broke, you can’t afford to fail. You’ve got that luxury. You have no idea of the margins in candy, you’ve never talked to anyone who is successfully selling candy, all
You have is your assumptions. 

There are a number of successful candy stores who generate a lot more than $3k/day. LTA, I hadn’t even thought that far, but when you mentioned it, I could see the future. What do you think places like Rocky Mountain fudge or cookies by George pull in in a day? It would make my candy supplier pale in comparison. Do you realize that an average pizza joint pays all Expenses within the first week? Three week per month is pure profit on average.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Sags Fudge............I am going to be rich. I can feel it in my walnuts.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

here in eastern canada when they talk about making fast easy $$ at farmers' markets it pretty much always means the illegal mj trade

making pot candies would be so easy


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Ahhh..........so they have fudge above board and the real "goodies" under the counter ?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

^^ no need to hide i think kidz could be used to sell em straight up


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

You are making a lot of assumptions, sport. 

I am merely playing devil's advocate because you are overselling how trivial it is. I'm not saying it is impossible, but to expect any person to be able to go from nothing to being able to produce and market 2500 servings of candy per day with no assets and make $3000 on the second day of operations is absurd . Maybe it is not all that hard, and some particularly wily people could do it (doubtful without existing connections) but it isn't as easy as you are pretending it is. Go ahead and spend an afternoon on a streetcorner and demonstrate your ability to sell sugar for $45/kg (that is more expensive than Lindt truffles at my local Loblaws).


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

For one thing, you “play devils advocate” all the time whenever someone talks about a different form of investing. Second, if you look back at my original post, you’ll see I never said it would be easy, I just said possible, so why are you “playing devil’s advocate” if not just to argue. Third, a proper “devil’s advocate” doesn’t twist facts continually, where did I ever say produce 2500 units, let alone all the other things you misquote just to argue. 

Like sags, you need a dictionary. 

By the way, many things that don’t have prices, or mass displayed can often sell for a lot more than you think. People buy a bag of stuff. Heck, it’s over $2, almost 3 if I remember right, at a local loblaws store for a 50g bag of that rollo or kitkat mix crap. Way more than Lindt truffles as well in the same store you claim to be an expert with. 

So, as usual you attack things you can’t do yourself, I also pointed out I don’t do it, but I purchase from someone who does. Quit attacking people to cover up for your own shortfalls. You’re not a devils advocate, you attack people who threaten the herd. We already acknowledged people like you, saga, saga jr, etc. Could never do this in a million years. You seem to falsely associate your limited mindset and abilities with unhealthy entire planet. Why would I have to “prove” anything myself, as I said there are already people doing it. Try talking to people in a farmer’s market, maybe you’ll become a little educated, but that’s even more unlikely than selling $3k of candy in a day...


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The underlying argument you have is that it is so easy to run a business and make money, it must be that the poor are inferior/deficient if they are not rich or at least wealthy.

I will ask all the vendors at my next trip to a farmers market whether their business could be replicated with $100. What kind of answer do you think I'll get?

r/quityourbullshit


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Thought of another business you could start with a pickup truck and $100.

Friend of mine owns horses. He told me there is a weekly horse auction he attends. There is usually a man there selling big bags of carrots. He gets the carrots from a farmer, very cheap, because they are the gnarly misshapen ones he can't sell to the supermarkets. I don't know how much he charges, I have to guess, but suppose he gets $5 bucks for a 20 pound bag and pays $50 for a truck load. The price is right and he sells out every week. A local apple orchard does the same thing, they sell big bags of misshapen apples for horses for 1/4 what they charge for pretty ones. I like to buy them and juice them or make pies or applesauce.

If you had a little larceny in you, you could sell the same carrots and apples at the farmer's market as 'organic' and charge more than the stores.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

andrewf said:


> I will ask all the vendors at my next trip to a farmers market whether their business could be replicated with $100. What kind of answer do you think I'll get?
> 
> r/quityourbullshit


Yes, twist what I say to prove your point. Never said a business was easy, and if you say could you do what they do for $100, you know what answer you’ll get. You certainly don’t grasp the concept of building a business. Talk about shovering BS. THe only business you could survive in is the fertilizer one. 

Why not ask the vendors if they think YOU could do what they do, you’ll probably get the same answer. Face it you never succeeded in running a business and never will. Ive started many businesses over the years, all self funded from day one. They were designed to be self funding, no bank loans, no investment money, just good products and services that people were willing to pay for.

Anyway, you’re not worth the effort to reply to anymore, it’s clear you could never succeed at anything but being negative. no brainpower at all to survive and be successful without someone else making the money to give to you. Stick with a paycheque while there are fools willing to pay you.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

JAG, you're being irrational. You can go ahead and make all the assumptions you want about me. I was just pointing out that you were exaggerating, which is plain for all to see. No need to get deranged. Don't worry about me, I do just fine. I don't feel the need to toot my own horn every second post like some care to.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

No, you feel the need to tear down others, you do it all the time as it’s plain to see. Also, how am
I tooting my own horn when I point out the accomplishments of others. I really can’t help it they you don’t know how to read. Nor the fact that you can’t imagine people who can accomplish more than you. 

What a sad world it would be if that was actually true. 

Those who can do, those who can’t are fearful and feel the need to attack. You’ve proven time and again, you can’t do anything. You also act like $3000 is a lot of money. How much do you think the average company makes in a day? $3k is nothing. How much product do you think a top commissioned salesman pushes out in a day? One guy, working on straight commission? It’s a lot more than $3k. A real businessman knows that.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> Sags Fudge............I am going to be rich. I can feel it in my walnuts.


 ... LOLOLOLOLOL too ...


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> agog to hear the details of your successes .each:
> 
> btw did u know that the duration of your "working" life keeps getting shorter & shorter as you post along. Here we seem to be down to only 7 years of gainful employment, followed by lucrative successes w camels & such ... or am i not getting it quite correctly ...


Either you are being deliberately obtuse or just don't pay attention. My working life ended in my early 40s. My retirement goal from inception at age 35 to retirement at age 43, took 7 years to achieve. At no time have I suggested I had success with 'camels & such'. The only thing that changes is that my number of years retired increases by one year, every year. Pay attention.

Envy is a sad thing to see in people humble-pie and is often recognizable by attempts to mock.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> Details are sparse and hard to drag out of the CMF rags to riches crowd.
> 
> I am still thinking about people buying un-inspected meat pies from a stranger at a market.
> 
> ...


No one is forcing you to buy a pie sags and you don't need to worry about what anyone else chooses to do or not do. Nothing you are writing here changes the fact that people can and do sell things at farmer's markets for cash and do make a profit. Attempting to divert the issue seems to be a habit with you.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> You can set up a candy store with $100? Please demo. JAG is arguing that it is trivial to immediately (he said by day 2) build a $3k profit per day business with no prior connections, knowledge or assets beyond a crisp $100 bill.


You asked where do you sell $3k of candy and I responded with 'a candy store'. Obviously, you misunderstood what I wrote. I meant that you could sell $3k of candy to a candy store. I was not suggesting you open a candy store, I was suggesting you sell TO a candy store. Got it?

If it is that hard for you to understand when someone answers a direct question that you asked, that you are being given a direct answer to that direct question, then I think you should stick to employment.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Funny thing about business, if you create crap, poison your customers, screw up, etc. It’s not like a union job where they’ll just shrug and let you get a raise. You tend to go out of business which kind of inspires you to not do those things. Hard concept for union employees where seniority will cover your butt no matter how bad you screw up. 

It does explain why they can’t understand the concept though.

I wonder if Sags ever are over at a friends house. No health inspectors, I’m surprised they survived. 

LTA, I doubt Andrew misunderstood, he has to deliberately twist things to try and prove his point. You’ll notice it evolved from you can’t make $3000 in a day (obviously no experience with being a commissioned salesman) to you can’t open a candy store for $100, which no one ever suggested, but he also can’t understand the concept of building a business. You start with $100, build up products and clientele, then expand and grow. Too complicated an idea. All businesses, in his opinion, must be at maximum sales and size from day one. He also seems to think we are the ones doing this and just exaggerating, when we report on other people who are actually doing it. That’s impossible of course because Andrew isn’t capable of it. If Andrew can’t do it, it’s clearly impossible...just look at his trail of success.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Umm, how about a candy store? LOL, can you not see that when you write what you did, you are ASSUMING you can't find such a market? You've decided it doesn't exist rather than actually trying to answer your own question. How about online? Have you never watched the Dragon's Den? How many businesses have been on their with someone sailing cupcakes online and mailing them out to customers all over N. America, from their home kitchen? My guess is at least hundreds.
> 
> Why do you say, "on your first day"? Would it not be enough to work up to doing $3k per day? Is that not possible? Trying to say, 'no, you can't do that on your first day', does not make it impossible to do it PER DAY down the line a bit does it? It does not make it not worth trying to do at all does it? It doesn't guarantee failure does it?
> 
> If you start out thinking 'it can't be done', you will be proven right, YOU will not be able to do it. That's guaranteed.


Your post shows that you cherry picking the points you want.

To help you make these linkages, here was discussion.
1. Based on the OP, the challenge is to take $100 and pick up, with no other previous resources and turn it into a $1 MIL business in 90 days and being able to survive during that time. 
2. An idea to make gourmet candy at $6 kg (all in) and sell for $45 a kg. Based on #1, it would mean in day one you could theoretically make $750 on day 1. Day 2, you would make $3k day 2, based on JAGS contact of selling $3k at farmers markets from candy made from a borrowed kitchen somewhere. (Technically though, based on logic from day 1, one could make $33750)
3. The question was where can one find farmer(s) market, or any market that would be able take that amount of homemade candy at that price, on day 1 that would support the sales of $750 and day 2 of $3000.
4. You responded candy store. I could be wrong, as I have personally not owned a candy store. I have made home made candy and sold things at a farmers market and other places with kids. Candy stores would not be buying homemade candy from an unknown source at $45 a kg. 

In this thread of discussion, which was based on homemade candy made be an average or below average guy, how would one sell that amount. I am pretty sure a legit candy store that can move $3k in candy is not going to buy candy at $45kg and sell it for $90kg or more from some unknown. 

This has nothing to do with a 'can do' attitude, but there are many holes with this where it takes it from theory to reality. Now back to the OP of the undercover billionaire. That sounds really interesting, and I have been trying to watch the episodes but cannot seem to find it. I think it can be done, but this candy example has gone sour.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> The underlying argument you have is that it is so easy to run a business and make money, it must be that the poor are inferior/deficient if they are not rich or at least wealthy.
> 
> I will ask all the vendors at my next trip to a farmers market whether their business could be replicated with $100. What kind of answer do you think I'll get?
> 
> r/quityourbullshit


OK andrewf, I will give it one more attempt to paint a picture you can see. In many small towns such as the one I live in, they have various outdoor events year round. A Christmas street market or an 'Art on Main', etc. Local stores participate, local vendors participate. Now answer this question for me. Have you ever seen a couple of people with one of those folding tables set up on the sidewalk and a barbecue beside it on which they are making hot dogs and hamburgers? Often, these are done to raise money for charity in our little town. But at events, some are set up simply by someone looking to make some money. 

On any given weekend in any area of Ontario (example) I can assure you that there are dozens of these little events going on. Some will draw a larger crowd than others obviously and with a little research, maybe a few phone calls, you can find out which are more popular in terms of number of visitors. For example, the little town of Dresden, Ontario (population roughly 2500) started a Christmas Market a couple of years ago, last November they drew over 3000 visitors to their one night event.

Now suppose you already own a barbecue and a folding card table. For less than $100 I am pretty sure you could buy some hot dog sausages, hamburger patties and some mustard, relish and ketchup. You're in business! A hot dog sells for $4 and a hamburger for $6 with probably an easy 200% profit margin. So if you sell one of each, that's a profit of over $6. If you can sell 50 of each that's a $600 profit at one event. Does that sound undoable to you with a potential market of 3000 visitors?

Now suppose the next week you go to a 'Bavarian Days' event in another town with a German immigrant history. Instead of hot dogs or maybe along side hot dogs, you sell bratwurst on a bun (German hot dog so to speak) and add sauerkraut to the condiments. They sell for $6 each as bratwurst is more expensive than hot dogs. You also invest some of last weeks $600 profit in buying some cold drinks, a cooler and some ice. PC cola and PC ginger ale maybe which you buy for less than $1 each and sell for $2 each. Maybe you make $1000 profit at that event. Are you following me here andrewf?

The world is full of people who just 'know' something can't be done but sometimes someone just doesn't 'know' their idea won't work and they try it. Some fail obviously but every once in a while one succeeds. The one constant is that no idea that was NOT tried ever succeeds.

Have you ever heard of Tom & Chee? In 2009, two couples opened a stand in Cincinnatia under one of those tent roof things, selling Tomato soup and grilled Cheese sandwiches. Hence the name. Now what could be more mundane than tomato soup and a grilled cheese sandwich? That is no different than someone deciding to try selling hot dogs at a small town event to make a few bucks. You never know where it will end up.
https://www.cincinnatimagazine.com/features/the-tom-chee-ing-of-america/

Now in the interest of full disclosure, Tom & Chee got into trouble after expanding too quickly (a common franchise restaurant issue) and had to sell out in 2017. But it doesn't negate the fact that 2 couples went from nothing to becoming millionaires in a few years just from selling tomato soup and grill cheese sandwiches on the street.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Again, bringing in a different scenario. Yes, lots of people can make small amounts of money in at markets and events as described. They don’t happen every day, and it would be realistic to sell $3k worth of candy at one of these event 

Looking at the math and process: 

$100 will yield 16.7 kg of candy at a cost of $6kg This assumes the the kitchen was donated and they were no other costs such as food, gas for the person. They can eat the candy as their nutrition or have the people give them food for the day.

It would be expensive but reasonable to sell the candy in the little bags for $5 for a 100g. This would require 150 bags to be bought on the first night. Out 3000 people, maybe double, but it’s a little stretch. I don’t know the demographics of the festival, but I am guessing it’s a mix of families, couples, and some singles. So simplicity, if we think that there are 1500 family units, would one in 10 buy this candy when there are so many vendors. 

If we used second scenario, which is the one in question of selling $3k. That would be 600 bags, which would be 1 in 2.5 couples. That does not seem reasonable at all. I have been at MANY of these things, and i would say that having 1 out of every 2.5 family units or even 1 out of EVERY 5 PEOPLE attending buy a bag of candy is not reasonable. That’s were the extreme comes in.

Could I make a few hundred dollars night at one these fairs, easily. Could I turn it into a million business in 90 days, nope. I know some one vey how started a baby gourmet food company selling at the farmers market. It was sold for millions It took about 6 years, and she started with much more than a $100. 

I still haven’t been able to watch the show (though I really want to). I think it will be doable, but don’t mistake that for anyone can do it.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> No, you feel the need to tear down others, you do it all the time as it’s plain to see. Also, how am
> I tooting my own horn when I point out the accomplishments of others. I really can’t help it they you don’t know how to read. Nor the fact that you can’t imagine people who can accomplish more than you.
> 
> What a sad world it would be if that was actually true.
> ...


Most real companies are actually capitalized. Only fantasy businesses run on $100 of capital.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

The guy who sells candy at the market I go to usually sells 3 bags to each person who buys, he gives a small discount and up sells a mix and match choice. It’s called sales. Now you’ve cut your customer “needs” significantly. 

The reason I said $3000 was a realistic number and didn’t maximize the $750 profits from the initial sales is because that’s what a guy actually sells on average, I didn’t inflate the numbers. I don’t make things up, unlike many others on this board. 

I believe the person who gave the first show synopsis said that the guy actually started selling food to begin making money.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> Again, bringing in a different scenario. Yes, lots of people can make small amounts of money in at markets and events as described. They don’t happen every day, and it would be realistic to sell $3k worth of candy at one of these event
> 
> Looking at the math and process:
> 
> ...


Last I heard, you can't just show up at a farmers' market and set up a stall. Often you have to apply for and pay for that stall. Not likely to be something you can do on the first day you conceive of your hypothetical candy business, between making and packaging 17kgs of candy, which requires you to go and collect ingredients, find a (free) location and equipment and recipes and packaging and skill to be able to produce. 

Obviously candy-making is a viable business, and high margin. It is just not as fantasy-land trivial as JAG claimed (hyperbolically) it is, otherwise how would he explain any candy company managing to struggle or go out of business? I think if JAG were willing to climb down from that branch he would be willing to admit he was exaggerating a bit for effect, but I think I got under his skin a bit too much for his pride to allow him to do so.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> The guy who sells candy at the market I go to usually sells 3 bags to each person who buys, he gives a small discount and up sells a mix and match choice. It’s called sales. Now you’ve cut your customer “needs” significantly.
> 
> The reason I said $3000 was a realistic number and didn’t maximize the $750 profits from the initial sales is because that’s what a guy actually sells on average, I didn’t inflate the numbers. I don’t make things up, unlike many others on this board.
> 
> I believe the person who gave the first show synopsis said that the guy actually started selling food to begin making money.


Isn't it a bit of an insult to your candymaker friend to say that any idiot with only $100 and some motivation could build his business in a matter of days?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

andrewf said:


> Most real companies are actually capitalized. Only fantasy businesses run on $100 of capital.


Wow, you really can’t understand can you. You turn $100 into $750, into $3000. Fairly basic business concept. Only in your business would you turn $100, into $100, into $100...these concepts are obviously too advanced for you. Maybe you should stick to something you can understand. 

You must be very secure financially if this is how you think. Or maybe you just think you’re good financially, not that you’d really know a difference from what you’ve shown. 

Since you’re stuck on this $100 idea, the idea that I could start a marketing and design company with no money, I negotiated several contracts before even opening my doors, then bought equipment with the deposits, and didn’t borrow a dime, would really blow your mind. Also the idea that we negotiate contracts worth more than $3000 before lunch is clearly impossible. Your little brain would explode when confronted with the realities of business. Of course, we couldn’t afford to pay people if we didn’t, but then since you couldn’t, no business possibly could. All these big companies are just lying about their revenues.

Well known fact by the way. Apple was founded on the sale of a VW van and an HP calculator. Didn’t start up for much money, the world’s first trillion dollar company. Probably lies I’m sure.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> OK andrewf, I will give it one more attempt to paint a picture you can see. In many small towns such as the one I live in, they have various outdoor events year round. A Christmas street market or an 'Art on Main', etc. Local stores participate, local vendors participate. Now answer this question for me. Have you ever seen a couple of people with one of those folding tables set up on the sidewalk and a barbecue beside it on which they are making hot dogs and hamburgers? Often, these are done to raise money for charity in our little town. But at events, some are set up simply by someone looking to make some money.
> 
> On any given weekend in any area of Ontario (example) I can assure you that there are dozens of these little events going on. Some will draw a larger crowd than others obviously and with a little research, maybe a few phone calls, you can find out which are more popular in terms of number of visitors. For example, the little town of Dresden, Ontario (population roughly 2500) started a Christmas Market a couple of years ago, last November they drew over 3000 visitors to their one night event.
> 
> ...


Cute story.

Most festivals charge for booths. Let's assume you can bootleg a stall. Many things are possible when you start taking a flexible view of the law. Now you are just assuming a BBQ, tables, a truck to transport. Why not just assume a restaurant too? That would bring in way more cash. Problem is that these violate the $100 of capital premise of the claim. Obviously there are many business opportunities, and many that are profitable. But the main reason businesses fail is because they are undercapitalized. You sound like you have never run a business before, as most business people have a keen sense of their inputs and overheads, and tend not to gloss over them. They also tend to have a keen appreciation for how much capital it took to establish their business.

I would say the most realistic thing to do with $100 is get a job for a few weeks until you had at least a few thousand and could actually have the capital for your hypothetical hot dog stand.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Wow, you really can’t understand can you. You turn $100 into $750, into $3000. Fairly basic business concept. Only in your business would you turn $100, into $100, into $100...these concepts are obviously too advanced for you. Maybe you should stick to something you can understand.
> 
> You must be very secure financially if this is how you think. Or maybe you just think you’re good financially, not that you’d really know a difference from what you’ve shown.
> 
> ...


The fact that you spend 90% of your post on ad hominem kind of speaks volumes. Just admit that you were exaggerating. For someone who claims to be so successful, you seem to be riddled with petty insecurities.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A far more likely scenario than the one presented by JAG and LTR, is making all the candy, renting a stall, standing around all day, and throwing most of the candy out at the end of the day.

I know a woman who owns a Chinese restaurant. She decided to open a stall on Saturday's at the local busy farmer market.

She kept her menu simple......fried rice and sweet/'sour chicken balls and sold Chinese style clothing. She lasted about 3 weeks and gave it up.

She said by the time she paid for the stall and the ingredients she ended up losing money. She also had to deal with the health inspector visits.

All this talk about making a fortune selling at farmer markets only takes place at the Fantasy Island Farmer's Market.

Underestimating costs and overestimating sales and prices, can make anything look profitable, but that is how the 'get rich quick" crowd sell their ideas.

P.S.........lf anything we are drowning in cheap candy, so that is a really lame example.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Andrew, you’re a waste of time, I’ll add you to the ignore list as it improves the quality of postings on the board. 

Oh and a farmer’s market booth usually costs $10. They also don’t collect it until about halfway through the market. Of course an “expert” like you probably knew that and just ignored the facts, since they don’t suite your opinion on how the world should work. 

Stick to a job, let others make the money to support, I mean employ, you.

Look up insecurity in the dictionary and then look up correcting errors. Insecure people tend to attack, not defend.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

......just came on board here.....scanning thru this (rater snippy) thread.....
uh..., do you guys have lives....or what?.....:smiley_simmons::smiley_simmons::smiley_simmons:


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> Cute story.
> 
> Most festivals charge for booths. Let's assume you can bootleg a stall. Many things are possible when you start taking a flexible view of the law. Now you are just assuming a BBQ, tables, a truck to transport. Why not just assume a restaurant too? That would bring in way more cash. Problem is that these violate the $100 of capital premise of the claim. Obviously there are many business opportunities, and many that are profitable. But the main reason businesses fail is because they are undercapitalized. You sound like you have never run a business before, as most business people have a keen sense of their inputs and overheads, and tend not to gloss over them. They also tend to have a keen appreciation for how much capital it took to establish their business.
> 
> I would say the most realistic thing to do with $100 is get a job for a few weeks until you had at least a few thousand and could actually have the capital for your hypothetical hot dog stand.


Well, as the saying goes andrewf, you can lead a horse to water....................

I didn't think it was unreasonable to assume someone had a BBQ, a vehicle and maybe an old folding card table. Certainly no where near as unreasonable as assuming a restaurant in their back pocket. But if it all seems unreasonable to you, well, what can I say.

I also didn't think buying a few packs of hot dogs, frozen hamburger patties and some mustard and relish for $100 was unreasonable at all. But again, if you say it is, what can I say.

Most festivals/events do indeed charge a small amount for a space allocation, you have that right but perhaps just how small it often is, is beyond your knowledge. I can tell you that the charge for the farmer's market near us is $10. The market is every Saturday from 8-noon. The fee seems reasonable to me. I could deduct that from the $600 profit I suggested in my example but if that seems unreasonable to you, what can I say.

Having been what most people would consider very successful in my sales career, I do think I have some idea of how costs vs. selling price vs. profit works and therefore an idea of how a business works. But there again, if it seems unreasonable to you for me to claim that, what can I say. 

I am left wondering however just what it is you ARE trying to say. I started this thread about a TV series in which a guy is going to try and start with $100 and run it up to $1 million in 90 days. What he does in 1 day or 1 week or 1 month are irrelevant, what matters is where is he at the end of the 90 days. Are you trying to say, that he cannot achieve his goal, that it is unreasonable and he will certainly fail? Don't you think we should wait till the series end and see what happens? Or do you somehow know already that he will fail? What if he does it, what will that do to your belief system? Will you find some excuse for why he succeeded but it is unreasonable to think anyone else can?

A real life example of where $100 can take you is this one. _"In 1952, an interstate highway was built to bypass the town of Corbin, Kentucky. A small motel owner saw this as potentially the end to his business so sold off his entire operation to pay outstanding debt. Penniless, he took his first social security check of $105 and decided to use it to start a new business. With no other income, no savings to draw on, this small check represented his only capitalization. He developed a product and traveled through the area looking for restaurant owners that would sell it, giving him just five cents for each one sold. Twelve years later he sold his business for two-million dollars. Twenty years later the business would be sold again, this time for $840 million, with the stipulation this entrepreneur would remain the spokesperson. It seemed appropriate because the inventor, a gentleman by the name of Colonel Harlan Sanders, had become one of the most recognized people in the world."
_ Taken from here: https://www.advancingwomen.com/entrepreneurialism/9946.php

As I said, I don't know what you are trying to say but I know what I am trying to say. If you believe you will fail and therefore never attempt something or give up too easily, that is what is called a self-fulfilling prophecy. You'll never win unless you get in the game and expect to win.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Face it LTA,

They’ve been brainwashed their entire lives...”go to school, get a job, go on the dole if required, retire and live off of the government”. They’ve been told that their entire lives, they ca’t imagine anything else. Anything different is a threat to their belief system...this, I just realized isn’t a debate, we’re a threat to their religion. We’re heathens and heretics, who need to be purified.

I’m slowly learning that there is nothing to be done. The lemmings have to follow the dogma, right over the cliff. No matter how much evidence or proof you provide, it will never be enough. They can’t handle such a blow to their beliefs, they need it to be true, just like they need air to breath. It’s a total waste of time, so let it go. They’ll be happy thinking they “won” when, in reality, they continue to lose. At least they’ll be happy...until they realize how little they have and demand the government fix it for them.

There is only the one “true” path...get a job.

P.S. you’d be amazed at how the quality of the posts increases with less than a handful of people being added to the Ignore list. Sadly it means a lot of their garbage posts go unchallenged, but it doesn’t really stop the zealots anyway. Hopefully people are smart enough to see the pattern of uninformed postings.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

The best way to deal with closed minds is to ignore them. I do that so I have no idea what garbage they are spewing, if any. But I know their contributions are marginal at best.

Two of them do contribute on some topics. But it is a small price to pay. There are some marginal ones who remain candidates so far. One is a Mod who lets his buddies get away with insults to others.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Before anyone rushes out to start a hot dog stand they should answer the longstanding legal question.

Is a hot dog legally considered a sandwich ?


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

....the one I had today was neither hot, nor a dog......


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Are you sure of the second part?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I relish a good hotdog when I can ketchup with the food truck.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Ketchup! OMG, Sags you really are incorrigable (like my wife).
Mustard and relish that's what goes on the hot dog (preferably dill relish, not sweet).
Ketchup is for the fries (w malt vinegar).


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> T
> 
> Google the title of this thread and you will see what I am talking about. A billionaire takes on the challenge of building $1,000,000.00 in 90 days.
> 
> ...


 He needs to use his pick up truck & move to where the money is then make his money then move back. A harder way would be to access the rich by internet or phone. If there is no wheat in the field you can not harvest the wheat. You have to have a field of wheat to harvest. 

The economy only has x amount of energy period. there is not enough energy to make everyone a million keeping the dollar @ its current value. (plus a dollar has to be borrowed to come into circulation so somewhere someone is in debt. The odds are against this guy so he probably will not make it. The poor will always be with us. If this guy makes it. It does not change the fact that it would be pretty much impossible for everyone to do it.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I agree that it will be extremely difficult to do in 90 days. I also think this thread proves that 99.9% (at least) wouldn’t even attempt it, let alone be able to duplicate it. The real question becomes, what if he gets close, say $500K, 750k, or more in 90 days? Is he really a failure? 

I’m sure all the job zealots will be jumping up and down claiming victory, totally ignoring his accomplishments despite the fact that he made more than they probably ever could in a year in less than 3 months. They’ll fall back to their “see it can’t be done”, and ignore the reality that he can accomplish more in 3 months, starting with nothing, than they could ever accomplish without someone else providing for them.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Colonel Sanders story example isn't true.

Sanders owned a small road side restaurant during the Depression and developed a way to cook seasoned chicken in a pressure cooker. 

It was a popular recipe and he spent the next 20 years selling franchises. 

In the "billionaire" story the guy's company went bankrupt owing hundreds of millions of dollars to hundreds of creditors.

Like many of the "get rich" stories of success, they often leave out a lot of details.

The "success" of some of these people........like Donald Trump, is the ability to convince lenders/suppliers to loan them a lot of money.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I did some calculations on the "farmer's market gambit", and came up with one idea that saves a lot of work.

No restaurant, no cooking, no market stall rental, no transportion of goods, no employees and no equipment or supplies needed.

A 2 pound bag of Oreo cookies sells for about $30. They contain about 80 cookies.

If I buy 5 bags of Oreo cookies for $150 and sell the 400 cookies for $1 each from a stool outside in the farmer market, I can earn $400-$150 = $250 profit.

All I have to do is sell 400 Oreo cookies a day.

To earn $1,000,000 profit in 90 days, I would only have to sell about 17,000 cookies a day. 

That is a lot of Oreo cookies.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

lonewolf :) said:


> He needs to use his pick up truck & move to where the money is then make his money then move back. A harder way would be to access the rich by internet or phone. If there is no wheat in the field you can not harvest the wheat. You have to have a field of wheat to harvest.
> 
> The economy only has x amount of energy period. there is not enough energy to make everyone a million keeping the dollar @ its current value. (plus a dollar has to be borrowed to come into circulation so somewhere someone is in debt. The odds are against this guy so he probably will not make it. The poor will always be with us. If this guy makes it. It does not change the fact that it would be pretty much impossible for everyone to do it.


Yes, most could not do it lonewolf but that is not the point of the thread. The point is that no one can do it if they never try and that someone can do it MAYBE, if they try. The issue in this forum is that every time someone suggests an alternative way to invest your time and money, the naysayers who will never try anything outside the box, immediately jump on it to say, 'that will never work'. They don't seem to be willing to admit that an individual just might be able to do something that they themselves could never do. They don't want to see anyone suggesting anything not 'normal' in their view.

If a forum is truly about investing and not just investing in the ways that some posters think it has to be done, then alternatives should be accepted by all even if they are not alternatives that someone personally would choose to pursue. I have been involved in commercial real estate in the past for example but would never want to follow Just a Guy's methods of buying houses and renting them out. Just not for me, but I do not question or try to deny that it could work for someone else. I have never been in the restaurant/food type businesses but do not question that it worked for Harlan Sanders. Imagine the reception he would have got here if he posted saying he had an idea for fried chicken and was planning to invest his only $105 in it to start. He would have been laughed out of the forum so to speak.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

*Episode Two*

So last night, I watched the second episode of the series and I have to say I found it even more interesting than the first episode.

It starts out with him being sick and having to visit the hospital to get checked out. He's OK but it cost his $250 of the $400 or so he had at the end of the first episode, to find out. So he's down a bit going into week 2.

He decides he can't keep sleeping in the pickup truck and that renting an apartment has to be his first goal. He continues to look around all the abandoned factories along the railway tracks for anything he can scrounge and sell to someone. He finds some discarded tires that are a possibility. I'm talking big farm tractor size tires. He sells two tires for $1500 cash! The buyer meets him right where he found them in an old factory yard and the deal is done. With that $1500 in his pocket he gets a real estate agent to show him some apartments for rent and he takes one that is $435 per month. So now he has a roof over his head. He furnishes it from a charity shop for $32 or so. A garden lounger mattress for his bed, a used sleeping bag, a table lamp, a couple of plates, cutlery, a fry pan and that's about it.

Next he starts to visit some car dealers. His idea is that dealers often sell older cars that they take in trade-in, to auction houses rather than selling them off their own lots. These trade-in cars are sold to the auction houses very cheaply and so he figures if he can buy at the price they are sold to an auction house he will still have room to make a decent profit. He tries a few places with no luck and then finds one where he buys a 2005 Honda hybrid for $1200. He parks it on an empty corner lot somewhere with a For Sale sign on it and his cellphone number. Al he does to prep it for sale is wash and vacuum it. He sells it for $3900. He then buys a 2005 Cadillac Escalade from the same place for $1500. That isn't sold yet by the end of Episode 2. Update to follow I'm sure.

At the same time as this is going on, he visits the local SBDC, Small Business Development Center, to see what facilities and services they have to offer someone who wants to start up a business. This is FREE to anyone.

He also looks online for recent stories of new small business ventures in the area that appear to be successful. He makes appointments to meet with them. A metal fabrication business, a coffee shop business and a micro brewery business. He decides to start a micro brewery business. Next step is to assemble a team. He puts an ad online for open interviews for positions available and conducts those interviews at the SBDC. He tells the interviewees that the first couple of months will be the planning phase of the new business and they will not to paid until the business is up and running. He gets several people he likes who are willing to come on board regardless of that.

What you have to see is that this guy is good at what the Brits call 'blagging'. That is, talking his way to where he wants to get. Some might call it BSing but that is really not the same thing. He isn't lying about anything (other than his name), he's just good at getting people to buy in to what he is saying.

By the end of day 15 and Episode two, he has a few thousand dollars, a plan (micro brewery), some team members who will help him make it happen and is focused on his next goal, to raise $10k for a down payment on a house. He intends to find a house, renovate and flip it to get his next step up in funds to use to get the brewery started. We'll see what Episode three brings in that regard I guess.

I saw several good ideas he had for how to make some money quickly, the tires and the cars. I saw how willing he was to keep his living costs, $32 in furnishings, to a minimum in order to conserve his capital to use towards the bigger plan. I saw how he was very focused on just executing each step of his plan but not just one step at a time, he was doing multiple things at the same time.

Will he build a successful micro-brewery in 90 days? Who knows but I would say that I wouldn't bet against this guy in anything he sets out to do and if you think about how he gets people to work for no pay to begin with, I think that is understandable. They see in him, nothing but confidence and see him as I do as someone who is likely to do what he says he will do. As one new team member puts it, something like, 'lots of people talk about doing something but that's all they do, talk. He is going to do it, not just talk and I have to give him credit for that and I want to be part of it.'

This series is really looking like it will be well worth my time to watch. What's that saying, 'Truth is stranger than fiction'. Attributed to Mark Twain and referring to fiction has to stick to what is credible, truth doesn't. 
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/07/15/truth-stranger/

There are some people in this forum who no doubt will think, this can't be true, it isn't credible. Yet, this guy is doing what they believe can't be done. It's almost like watching a real good movie and you find yourself rooting for the underdog who will triumph regardless of the odds and obstacles. GO GLENN GO.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

LTA, most threads have differing opinions and pros/cons posted, whether they are about buying a house, reducing debt or investing in bonds/stocks/startup business.
I don't see the responses here any differently.

As an aside, you mentioned Colonel Harland Sanders success. I'm not sure if you know that the Colonel got fed up with the IRS in the US and moved to Canada after selling. He settled in Mississauga (Cooksville at the time). He met George R Gardiner one day (another story), the short of it being that George bought the rights to KFC in Canada through Scott's Hospitality in the early '60's - a small part of his eventually extensive holdings.

Lots of interesting entrepreneurial stories out there that people could read about if they are interested. May be more insightful than a reality(?) TV show.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

....in a similarly-intellectual reality vein....what's new with the kardashians....?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Colonel Sanders was never a "rags to riches" story.

He started out in 1930 with a gas station and over the years added a kitchen and dining room. Then he had a fire and rebuilt the place bigger. 

He was operating a successful restaurant business in 1940 when the governor of Kentucky gave him the moniker of a "Kentucky Colonel".

Colonel Sanders success is a story of grit, determination, and luck over decades of hard work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harland_Sanders_Café_and_Museum

Telling stories about people's success is good thing, but creating the impression there is no work involved in success is simply bad advice, especially on a financial forum.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

jargey3000 said:


> ....in a similarly-*intellectual reality* vein....what's new with the kardashians....?


 ... <<<< urgh, urgh, urgh, urgh, puking >>>>


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> Colonel Sanders was never a "rags to riches" story.
> 
> He started out in 1930 with a gas station and over the years added a kitchen and dining room. Then he had a fire and rebuilt the place bigger.
> 
> ...


Sags, if you want the Colonel Sanders story here it is. What I wrote began at the point where he had to sell his motel after WW2. At that point he was dead broke and had to apply to Social Security. His first check from them was for $105 and that is where I pick up the story of his taking that money and using it to continue on trying to start a business.
https://www.snagajob.com/resources/the-inspiring-life-story-of-kfcs-colonel-sanders/

Yes, it is a story of grit and determination over decades. So what? It is still a 'rags to riches' story if you want to call it that. It is not a story about luck at all. No one and certainly not me, has suggested work is not involved in success. I would say the amount of work the guy in the TV show is putting in to making his plan work is quite likely to be more work than most here have ever done in their lives. The difference is the kind of 'work' he is doing is 'work' most here could never even begin to do. Making something happen that others say cannot be done. 

In the first 2 weeks alone, starting with $100, no job, no contacts, in a strange city he has managed to make around $4k. Now you tell me how you would manage to do that in 2 weeks sags? How you would think of ways in your own head to do it and then actually make it happen. Hell yes that's hard work sags and it's a kind of work that most here couldn't even begin to do.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> What I wrote began at the point where he had to sell his motel after WW2. At that point he was dead broke and had to apply to Social Security. His first check from them was for $105 and that is where I pick up the story of his taking that money and using it to continue on trying to start a business.


I can't argue with "after the war", technically, but it was 1956 when he sold his restaurant and motel -- supposedly at a loss. But he still did have savings on which he lived at that time. Also at that time he already had at least 6 franchisees of his recipe and process and while expanding his franchise business at that point, it is certain that the business already existed in some sense at that time. An inflation calculator pegs the value of $105 in 1956 as $990 present day, which strikes me as pretty generous for a monthly assistance payment to an individual. I wonder if the Feb, 1970 New Yorker article where this part comes from had already calculated the 1970 value of a more plausible $75 1956 amount. That's still $710 in 2019 money.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1970/02/14/kentucky-fried


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Too bad I don't have cable, so I appreciate the summary, but looking at some of the threads on reddit and on other forums, you can see that it is "TV-reality". Some of the lessons can be taken seriously, not literally.

What I mean is:
1. Someone who can find a niche to make money and has the hustle, will be able to make it work, to some degree; and
2. Someone who is good at people skills will be able to help with point 1.

The above are some good takeaways from the show, which I mean by seriously.

But, the TV-reality hits where:
1. The producers would have already contacted all the businesses and people in question beforehand, even if they use a cover story. With the cameras running, I am sure the people are acting differently than if some Joe Schmoe came off the street and tried to do the same thing. In other words, while he isn't using his contacts, the fact of the matter is that the producers provided them.
2. On a related note, he is starting from a +asset start point. He doesn't have to worry about any outstanding debt like student loans, or need to worry about familial responsibilities.
3. For landlords in the house, how many don't do credit checks? Are you fine with just giving an apartment to someone who comes off the street with cash?
4. The 90-day limit means that certain things get sped up, i.e. selling a car would probably eat up a considerable chunk of time.
5. Related to cars, my experience about cars sold at auctions is that most need a lot of work to be done to be appealing to others. Maybe some of it is cosmetic (paint job, stain/ripped fabric), while some may be mechanical, but the idea that you can simply run a vacuum and wash and suddenly the car is worth 3x what he paid for it means that the dealer sold it for a generous price.
6. His first big score are the tires. Small problem is that the show presents them as being found in an abandoned factory where people on-line have pointed out that they were located on private property so he would be trespassing and stealing the tires. Again, probably TV-reality where the producers probably worked something out with the owners of the factory and probably staged the tire find.
7. House flipping? Again for those in the know, how easy is it to buy a house with no credit history, renovate it and sell it within less than 90 days?

I'm not saying that none of the above can be done given enough time, but the 90-day goal makes it unlikely that you could follow this blueprint to a "T", and have a company worth $1M. Which I mean don't take literally. 
The problem is that the TV-reality issues are going to overshadow any of the good take-away messages.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

In the late fifties the new interstate highways were being built and a lot of small towns and roads were cut off, and suddenly saw their traffic reduced by 90%. It was a common thing for gas stations, restaurants, garages, motels that were thriving one year to be shut down and out of business the next. I think this is what happened to Col Sanders.

At that point he wasn't busted but had to find a new way to make a living. He was 65 which is why he got social security. I don't blame him for not wanting to open another restaurant and sweat it out in the kitchen at his age. He chose the easier route of franchising his chicken and collecting royalties. He didn't know much about the franchise business and had to make it up as he went along, still he made a good living out of it.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Re the undercover billionaire show. I haven't seen it but I don't think going broke and losing your business destroys your credit rating. If a tenant had a good history of paying their bills, then went through a bad bankruptcy or divorce, but now had their finances in good shape, I think many landlords would find that acceptable. You aren't going to get the perfect tenant every time, you have to use your judgement.

As for buying a house and flipping it this is possible in many parts of the US. If houses are hard to sell you can get one under contract that is not otherwise saleable, fix it up and flip it. I'm not saying it is easy but it can be done. 10 or 20 years ago there was a guy who called himself the House Buying King in a dying small town in Pennsylvania, he was buying houses for $5000 to $10000 fixing them up and renting them for $500 or $600 a month. They were hard to sell because more people were moving out of the town than moving in, but it also made more people want to rent. He ran regular ads and bought more than 100 houses.His standard offer was 100 payments of 1/100 the asking price. In other words, $100 a month for a $10,000 house for 8 years and 4 months. So, he was buying for $100 a month and collecting $500 in rent, and after 8 1/3 years owned the house free and clear. Yes he made money but this only worked because it was a dying rust belt town.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Re the undercover billionaire show. I haven't seen it but I don't think going broke and losing your business destroys your credit rating. If a tenant had a good history of paying their bills, then went through a bad bankruptcy or divorce, but now had their finances in good shape, I think many landlords would find that acceptable. You aren't going to get the perfect tenant every time, you have to use your judgement.
> 
> As for buying a house and flipping it this is possible in many parts of the US. If houses are hard to sell you can get one under contract that is not otherwise saleable, fix it up and flip it. I'm not saying it is easy but it can be done. 10 or 20 years ago there was a guy who called himself the House Buying King in a dying small town in Pennsylvania, he was buying houses for $5000 to $10000 fixing them up and renting them for $500 or $600 a month. They were hard to sell because more people were moving out of the town than moving in, but it also made more people want to rent. He ran regular ads and bought more than 100 houses.His standard offer was 100 payments of 1/100 the asking price. In other words, $100 a month for a $10,000 house for 8 years and 4 months. So, he was buying for $100 a month and collecting $500 in rent, and after 8 1/3 years owned the house free and clear. Yes he made money but this only worked because it was a dying rust belt town.


Regarding point one, the issue isn't that he has a bad credit rating, he has 0 credit rating because, if you buy the premise of the show, he has a new identity with no credit history. Again, it could be hand-waved because it is for the show, but it is a point to consider.

As for the second point, sure it can be done, but it does take time. Unfortunately for the TV show we're talking about 90 day time window.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Colonel Sanders was never a "rags to riches" story.
> 
> He started out in 1930 with a gas station and over the years added a kitchen and dining room. Then he had a fire and rebuilt the place bigger.
> 
> He was operating a successful restaurant business in 1940 when the governor of Kentucky gave him the moniker of a "Kentucky Colonel".


Having recently stumbled on the Hartland Sanders cafe for lunch myself (there's a modern KFC beside it but you eat in the original cafe/museum) you vastly downplay the story jumping to 1930 when he was 40.. serving gas station customers in his adjacent living quarters during the Great Depression! He was +50 when he became a Kentucky Colonel from local popularity but then WWII came and he was back to 0

As for the rags bit -
6 his father died leaving him to raise his siblings
13 he dropped out of highschool to get away from stepfather, began working as a farmhand
15 he lied about his age to enlist in the army and was honourably discharged a year later
20s he was fired from several labourer, railroad and entry level sales jobs for fighting with coworkers and insubordination
30s he founded a ferry company and sold it to found a failed lamp company
40s he started into the shell gas station biz just before the great depression struck
50s his gas station/motel burnt down, he rebuilt and then sold at loss due to WWII gas rations/lack of tourism/traffic etc
60s he was on social security, moved to seattle to find work, gets the first successful KFC franchise, devotes himself full time to establishing more and was rejected over 1000 times

As far as I can tell he only really became rich in his 70s - rags to rags to rags to riches? Relentless.

He constantly experimented like putting the women's bathroom at the back of a staged motel room - he exploited the "wife approval factor" long before the term was coined. He painted a sign to redirect traffic to his station and a competitor killed one of his employees. He experimented with faster ways to cook before the days of fast food and patented pressure frying chicken

I don't even like KFC but apparently Sanders himself said it tasted like wallpaper and sludge after he sold out. He also apparently maintained control of the stores in Canada for awhile. There is also apparently a single restaurant somewhere in Kentucky that is legally permitted to sell his original recipes


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

There were lots of these "reality shows" being filmed in Alaska. You can easily meet them because it's all small towns - I visited a few. They're all scripted to some degree. It's cost prohibitive for a tv crew to be there 24/7. They record the entire season during a single season so a lot of it is faked/staged. Plus it's not exactly reaity when you have a film crew following you around. More like semi sorta reality maybe sometimes

As for surviving with $100 and an old truck - there are apps now where people will pay you to haul something with a truck. If there's some kind of crowd/event/tourism - go to walmart and buy a cooler, ice and water/drinks. Cold bottled water has a crazy markup. Unless it's winter, he could have camped for awhile and showered at truck stops/camp sites/gym. There's even airbnb style apps now for bathrooms

Starting the business is obviously the harder part. I hung out with a world famous business founder (only knew him for 1 but he has several world famous multi million businesses within a block - from motorcycle rally racing to olympic paraplegic skiing) He solidified some interesting things required for business startups like the hundredth monkey effect, consistent branding and not jumping too far ahead of the existing norm..


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Sure there are lots of ways of making a little money. A person can deliver flyers if that is all they want.

But all the time spent chasing ideas that pay little money are taking time away from actually working for a paycheque. 

For every rags to riches success story, there are tens of thousands of stories of people who spent their lives chasing rainbows and ended up without a pot or a window.

Everybody was going to get rich in the Yukon moiling for gold. Everyone was going to get rich selling Tupperware door to door. Everyone is going to get rich buying a few bitcoins.

If people want to chase their dreams, I think that is fine. They should get a job and do the chasing in their spare time.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Money, reality shows, make easy money, flip real estate, pyramid schemes, selling Herbalife .......in all things trust but verify.

Show me the numbers and if they make sense, I am interested. Otherwise I am not interested in could have, should have, would have,.......didn't.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Sanders led an interesting life and he worked hard his whole life, which was my point.

He didn't just stumble onto a get rich scheme and make his fortune. He worked long and hard at it...........same as having a real job, I would say.

At 75, he sold the KFC business for $2 million US, which would be $14 million in today's dollars. He was also paid a handsome salary as the public spokesman for KFT.

Later in life he donated a lot of money to charity and was very wealthy when he passed away.

Until Sanders was in his 70s he struggled along and never gave up, but to assume he never worked is ridiculous.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> I have never been in the restaurant/food type businesses but do not question that it worked for Harlan Sanders. Imagine the reception he would have got here if he posted saying he had an idea for fried chicken and was planning to invest his only $105 in it to start. He would have been laughed out of the forum so to speak.


I think you will find that such people are out doing it and not wasting time seeking permission on the Internet from strangers. That has been my experience. He would be considered an outlier here and among his peers.

For every success there are also 10 failures.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

kcowan said:


> For every success there are also 10 failures.


I think this is, indeed, the point.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Yeah, that’s a true stat. But then look at people like sags...guaranteed failure from before the start, so much so they won’t even try. I wonder what the ratio is of people who won’t even try to success is? 100 to 1, 1000, 10,000?

In my experience with my marketing company, which worked wth a lot of startups, the business failures often had little to do with the business ideas. Often, companies failed for the same reasons. One of the biggest was partners not getting along. When money got tight, they’d fight, when they were flush with money, they’d fight. Bad partners probably end over half the businesses. 

Another aspect that killed businesses was the owner trying to do everything. Instead of focusing on his/her company they were trying to do the accounting and taxes, or cleaning, or sales, or legal, maybe some design and marketing, or you name it...all taking time away from what they should be doing. Usually they justify it as “saving money”, when in reality it’s costing them a company. To be successful, it’s important to have things done professionally.

Not treating a business as a business is the third thing that kills companies. Many are, at best, treated like a hobby. To run a successful business, it has to be treated like one. If something isn’t working, you need to change. You always have to know where the money is coming from, and where it is going. You need a plan and follow it, etc.

It’s not all that hard to succeed in business, often people who initially fail at one, if they realize their mistakes and correct them, go on to build a successful one later, but many people jump in without any thought or knowledge and try to “wing it”. That usually doesn’t work.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is a huge difference between creating a successful business and the kind of instant successes that are reported in the media.

A buddy of mine owns a huge construction company that do road work, and lay the pipes for utilities to new subdivisions. He buys old commercial factories and transforms them into high level condos as well. He works on multi-million dollar projects for himself and others, including governments at all levels.

When I met him he owned a pickup truck and a couple of shovels. Our kids played on the same minor hockey team for years.

He asked me if I could talk to management to get him the snow contract so he could earn some money over the winter. He lived in a small home and his wife supported the family as a teacher. Today he lives in a million dollar mansion and he supports hundreds of people and families through employment.

He is a success, but it took a lot of hard work and struggle over 25 years to get to where he is.

That is the story of most successful businesses. They didn't stumble onto an idea to sell "pet rocks", which in itself revealed a level of brilliance and marketing savvy.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> ...
> 
> He is a success, but* it took a lot of hard work and struggle over 25 years* to get to where he is.


 ... and that's what happens in the "real" world, done by "real" people and not some BS tv "reality" show. 



> That is the story of most successful businesses. They didn't stumble onto an idea to sell "pet rocks", which in itself *revealed a level of brilliance and marketing savvy*.


 ... hardly brilliant or being marketing savvy. To me, it was just deceptive fad-selling to naive folks.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I’ve worked with several companies who were very successful, very quickly. It isn’t the norm, but it also isn’t impossible. Also, just because “most” businesses don’t do it that way, doesn’t exclude the fact that “some” businesses do. One of my companies had over 6 figures in assets in the first year. It wasn’t my first company, so experience played a role, but it didn’t take long. I’ve also had companies which didn’t make it off the drawing board and another that failed because of a partnership, my first company is over 25 years old and going strong. Anything can happen in business.

I once met a harpist at Niagara falls. Her goal was to make enough money to fly to Ireland at the end of the summer. She made that much in the first week busking and selling her self made CD. Her second week, she’d paid for school. All from playing the harp in a public place. She couldn’t believe the money she was making. I knew a lot of buskers when I was younger, many were friends of mine from school. They made a really good living and travelled all over the world. Of course, I also knew people who failed at it because they lacked creativity.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Beaver101 said:


> hardly brilliant or being marketing savvy. To me, it was just deceptive fad-selling to naive folks.


To the owner of the pet rock company it was a multi-million dollar idea, I doubt he cares a fig about your opinion.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

bgc_fan said:


> Regarding point one, the issue isn't that he has a bad credit rating, he has 0 credit rating because, if you buy the premise of the show, he has a new identity with no credit history. Again, it could be hand-waved because it is for the show, but it is a point to consider.
> 
> As for the second point, sure it can be done, but it does take time. Unfortunately for the TV show we're talking about 90 day time window.


Anyone can make an argument in whatever way they want to support their contention bgc_fan. You can say he had help from the producers, couldn't rent an apartment without a credit rating etc. and the fact is you COULD be right but you could also be wrong.

When I myself was 20, the company I started working with transferred me to Calgary to open a new branch office. I spent 5 weeks living in the Calgary Inn as there were no apartments to be found in my budget range, Calgary had a housing shortage (unlike Erie which I am sure has a lot of vacancies given the economic conditions there). I had to negotiate a raise from the company to up my rent budget. Having done so, I as a 20 year old with a wife and child and NO credit history (having never owed money yet or had any length of time living anywhere) was able to rent an apartment. Basically what happened is the building owner visited me at the Calgary Inn, saw I was married with a child, saw I was prepared to provide a deposit and first months rent and made a decision to rent to me. Therefore, I from my own personal experience do not find it the least bit unusual to see him being able to rent an apartment by handing over 2 months rent up front.

But let's suppose all the objections are valid, if he manages to get to $1mil in 90 days, it will still show people what is in fact possible even if without the 'reality tv' issues that are pointed out, it takes a year rather than 90 days. 

I think you got it right with your first two points:

" 1. Someone who can find a niche to make money and has the hustle, will be able to make it work, to some degree; and
2. Someone who is good at people skills will be able to help with point 1."

That is where the real difference is in my opinion. That 'hussle' as you call it and his 'people skills'. Most people simply don't have those attributes and would probably never get off the ground to begin with. But no one is saying that EVERYONE could do what he is attempting. I certainly am only saying that SOME could do something better with their time and money and how they invest them, IF they tried. The naysayers on the other hand want to insist that NO ONE could do it.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

kcowan said:


> I think you will find that such people are out doing it and not wasting time seeking permission on the Internet from strangers. That has been my experience. He would be considered an outlier here and among his peers.
> 
> For every success there are also 10 failures.


I agree with that entirely kcowan but it is what the individual extrapolates from that information that matters. When one person reads, 'for every success there are also 10 failures', they may conclude, 'so no use trying'. Another person may conclude, 'so if I try 11 times, one may succeed.' 

I'm reminded of an old sales story. Two competitors send a salesman to some small African country to see what market existed to sell the shoes they manufactured. One salesperson sent a telegram back saying, 'market here a bust, no one wears shoes'. The second send back a telegram saying, 'market here wide open, no one has shoes.' They both saw the same thing but had very different perceptions of what they saw meant.

Occasionally, someone new may wander onto this forum who is quite young and just starting out on making his/her way in life. If they are met with an attitude of the only way to invest your time and money is the traditional way, that to me would be doing them a disservice. 

If they are met with an attitude of, 'most people chose to follow the traditional, conservative ways of investing while only a few who are suited to it will follow a non-traditional way of investing. So the first question you need to answer for yourself is which kind of person are you?'


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> Sure there are lots of ways of making a little money. A person can deliver flyers if that is all they want.
> 
> But all the time spent chasing ideas that pay little money are taking time away from actually working for a paycheque.
> 
> ...


I really do find it difficult to comprehend such a degree of tunnel vision sags. I mean, 'time away from actually working for a paycheque'? Are you kidding, if a guy spends his time making $4k in 2 weeks in whatever way he does it, do you really think there is any negative difference from getting that money from a paycheque? 

Being an employee working for an employer really seems to be something you see as admirable. I don't understand that thinking. All of my working life, I worked for ME and no one else. Who were you working for? Did you work to make your employer money and happily accept the few crumbs that the employer threw your way? It's about attitude and knowing why you are there sags.

I worked WITH companies for quite a few years. If asked, someone would have said I was an employee but I would never had said that. I worked WITH companies, not FOR companies. I worked for ME. I always knew which came first in importance and my goals always reflected that. From my perspective, the companies I worked with got what was there for them to get AFTER I got what I wanted out of the relationship. Fortunately for them, my goals always led to them profiting so they had no reason to complain, all they had to do was give me what I wanted and I gave them what they wanted. 

When I was around 32 I was working with a company for whom I had agreed to work for a salary of around $35k per annun THAT year. When I made the largest sale in their history that year and I knew my reward would be a raise next year of a couple of thousand more salary being offered to me, a lightbult went on. They had just made roughly $200,000 in NET profit before taxes and I would get $2,000??? I said to myself, 'no way Jose'.

When it came time for them to 'tell me' what they were going to pay me next year, I said, 'no thanks, I want to go on straight commission at 1% of my gross sales per year.' This company did not pay anyone that way, everyone was on salary. But who had the STICK, them or me sags? I had the stick and they knew it. I had just made the biggest sale they had ever seen and sold as much in 1 year as any half dozen other salespeople combined. So they hummed and hawed, tried to tell me they had no process for doing that etc. but eventually they caved as I knew they would.

If I had been on 1% commission when I made that sale, I would have been paid, $17,000 for it. The sale was $1.7 million and that was 40 years ago now. In the next 3 years, my income grew from $35k to $110k gross and it is from that increase that I was then able to invest in other things and meet my new goal of retiring early. Getting a pat on the back and an annual raise as an employee would NEVER have seen me be able to meet that goal of early retirement sags. A 'paycheque', you've gotta be kidding, that the way to nowhere but where almost everyone else is headed.

Did you ever look at it that each year, you agreed to work for the next year for a given amount sags and that if you didn't like what they offered you that you could say, 'no thanks, that's not gonna work for me.'? I doubt it sags. You probably like most employees took what you were offered and were thankful for it. You most likely, like most employees, never thought that you were in charge of anything. You probably were thankful to the union too, for negotiating for you, on the assumption that they could negotiate a better deal for you than you could for yourself. You were probably right in that regard but it doesn't mean a union could have negotiated a better deal for ME than I was able to negotiate for myself. We're all different sags and that's reality.

You say, 'show me the numbers and I'm interested.' Well those are the numbers sags, a typical raise of $2k for the year vs. the chance to double your income (which I did from $35k after I went on straight commission and then tripled it in the next few years. 

The problem with most employees sags is that they want a 'safety net' and do not have the confidence in themselves to work without that safety net of a salary and annual raises. What they don't realize is that there actually is no 'safety net' or guarantees of any kind. Just as the GM Oshawa union employees about that for example.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> To the owner of the pet rock company it was a multi-million dollar idea, I doubt he cares a fig about your opinion.


 ... yep, a multi-million $ "idea" passing-by to this non-sucker. I wasn't giving an opinion. I said what it was at that time - just a deceptive fad-selling POS. So you gave a fig about his brilliancy and bought and made million$$$ from his rocks, I presume.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I really respect people who can make money. The Arrogant Worms, a great Canadian band, used to sell little boxes of dirt from Russel’s mom’s garden to fans at their show. You probably vote to have your taxes increased and spent on Justin’s wardrobe...who’s the bigger fool? We at least have a choice to buy a rock or dirt.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... yep, a multi-million $ "idea" passing-by to this non-sucker. I wasn't giving an opinion. I said what it was at that time - just a deceptive fad-selling POS. So you gave a fig about his brilliancy and bought and made million$$$ from his rocks, I presume.


If only we could get tomorrow's newspapers today. We would be rich in no time.

Two of my buddies won a million dollar lottery years ago. If only I had picked those numbers.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A woman shows up on the Dragons Den. She has invested all her time and money into a hair shampoo product.

It is all organic, smells great and is good for the hair.

What do the experts on the panel tell her ? Forget it. There is too much competition and you will never get space on retail shelves. 

Big stores want big sales before they even sit down for a talk.

Of all the great ideas that pass through such shows or attend product exhibitions, only a few are chosen and the rest wither on the vine.

If you want to get rich come up with a good idea that has no competition and will have repeat customers. Otherwise it will never be more than a hobby.

Or maybe you should join the Army........

_We're in the army now.
We're not behind a plow.
We'll never get rich a-diggin' a ditch. 
We're in the army now._


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

kcowan said:


> For every success there are also 10 failures.




i thought the rule of thumb goes for every success at least 100 failures

sounds daunting but i still think that sags & i may have a future in the hand knits biz. Sags' long career in the automotive industry means he's got to be good w his hands. Excellent hand/eye coordination, fine muscle conditioning, sags should be able to purl, plain, garter stitch & cable like a wizard. Me i'll have a hard time keeping up.

if we're lucky we've already got missus sags enrolled as suprema technica resource. Now we just have to meet up w the right sheep.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Crikey Humble, don't show that pic to Mrs Sags and tell her you think hubby is good w his hands or he may be banished to the outer islands.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> i thought the rule of thumb goes for every success at least 100 failures


Yes I was referring to the success of startups. Lots fail before getting to funding stage. I was an angel investor for a few years after retiring. (A former tech guy from Toronto made good!)


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i have a friend who specializes in marketing & development plans for junior startups by kids who do not have, never will have, angel investors. Stuff like that beehive remote detection software that i posted about recently.

friend dotes upon her Kidz. Says their energy & hopefulness is the best antidote to adult geopolitics going wrong. She has a lot of maternal nurturing pride in her Kidz' accomplishments.

where do the Kidz come from? some from high school science fairs, others from science & engineering programs at all levels in colleges & universities.

here in quebec, two outstanding financial supports for youthful innovators are the local caisse populaire Desjardins & also the Holt Accelerator. The latter is a business creator foundation run by the descendents of sir herbert holt, a 19th century CPR railroad baron who later planned & built montreal's town of mount royal.

the holt accelerator runs elaborate contests every year to identify the best & most promising business ideas from young people. It provides marketing & business development experts, loans, mentors, lawyers & accountants, all specializing in youth, to the prizewinners.

does alberta have an equivalent? it's been nearly 3/4 of a century since Leduc, did any of the oil barons work to create a diversied financial infrastructure legacy.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Every province has something equivalent. There was something on the national news about a group of Nait students who’d developed a new car seat and were heading to commercialization about a week ago or so.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

There is no shortage of available help all across Canada.

https://canadabusiness.ca/growing/business-support-organizations/


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is no shortage of free advice, but there is a shortage of start up funding.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

humble_pie said:


> i have a friend who specializes in marketing & development plans for junior startups by kids who do not have, never will have, angel investors. Stuff like that beehive remote detection software that i posted about recently.
> 
> friend dotes upon her Kidz. Says their energy & hopefulness is the best antidote to adult geopolitics going wrong. She has a lot of maternal nurturing pride in her Kidz' accomplishments.
> 
> ...


 The last thing you want to invest in is kids getting out of school. Go to business school then start a business the failure rate is high. Work in the real world for a successful business learn the craft then start a business after 15 or 20 years of experience & the odds success are a lot higher


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> There is no shortage of free advice, but there is a shortage of start up funding.


Umm, so are you saying you think free funding should be provided for those who want to try starting up a business sags? A government hand out? There is NO shortage of start up funding as far as I am concerned sags. Free funding is another story.

Start up funding can come from many sources. Your own pocket is the first place I would expect someone to look at. If you aren't willing to put your hand in your own pocket, then how committed to starting a business are you? Nowadays, online funding through sites like Kickstarter can allow someone to raise large amounts of funding very quickly. Look at this one for example: https://www.kickstarter.com/project...aPqYKISHQH1LL_cO5LqpyVtkpSMHOh0QaAuZ2EALw_wcB

Then thare are the traditional means of sourcing start up funding, family and friends, angel investors, bank loans, etc. etc.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I said the advice was free,.... not the funding.

How does a person accumulate start up capital from their own funds without working at a job and saving it ?

Borrow money from family and friends knowing there is an 80% chance they won't get it back ?

As for the banks, angel investors ...they aren't free and they all have qualifications including a comprehensive business plan, and business expertise and experience.

If you think you approach a lender with nothing but a "great idea" be prepared to wait in the back of the line that goes out the door and down the street.

You and JAG are talking about a "hobby" earning a few bucks in your spare time away from a real job.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Nice example of Kickstarter. 

I might be interested in supporting the company in return for receiving a shower head. 

The company will receive $114,000 less the cost of producing and shipping 1908 of the shower heads. Not quite a cash gift of $114,000.

They have already patented the machined prototypes and obviously paid for the glossy presentation on Kickstarter.

They aren't looking for start up capital. They have already spent a fortune to get to where they are.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Common LTA, you know Sags is all about OPM. They’re literally addicted to it. No union would ever hand out money to support a startup business. It has to come from someone else, just like everything else. If the union can’t provide, it must come from government and the taxpayer. How else will sag’s kids ever go to school, retire, pay their bills, etc. 

Their entire strategy is based on “tax the rich”. They are entitled to it...otherwise they’d have to earn their own money and that would be unfair.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

_There are four kinds of people, three of which are to be avoided and the fourth cultivated: those who don’t know that they don’t know; those who know that they don’t know; those who don’t know that they know; and those who know that they know.
Anon. Rendering of the Arab Proverb._

I know which categories fit some posters here when it comes to understanding how to start a business.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think a lot of people here got unnecessarily emotional about a disagreement on a claim about about a hypothetical scenario. You can draw whatever conclusions you like, but some free life advice is that you shouldn't presume to know someone based on a few brief interactions. Lest you fall into one of the no-no categories per your Arab proverb


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Watched the lastest episode last night. No time to summarize it right now, I will do so tomorrow. For now all I will say is this guy is good and on track to his goal so far.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

I have watched the show so far, except for the first episode. The time frame - 90 days seems unrealistic. The scenes where he makes money with the tires, and the trade in cars seems staged. 
Buying a flipable house with his alias, so no credit history, and very little money, is dubious. 

However, the underlying concepts are credible. I think the show is offering a workable blueprint for how somoeone, a skilled person could actually do this given longer time and persistance. This guy reminds me of someone I know who has, for decades, insisted he is an entrepeneur yet all of his attempts blow up in his face. He has the determination, but not the skill. Not anyone can do this.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I saw the episode, first one I’ve watched.

His plans to open a brewery hits the ropes because he can’t get a brewers license in 90 days. Changes the plans a bit, to open a bbq restaurant that serves local beer. It will also sell sauces, rubs, clothes and their own brand of beer over the Internet. 

He sells the truck for $7600, getting him close to the $10,000 goal. He looks at three houses, chooses a very nice house, offers $45k. Ten days later he closes on it. Puts 6600 down and gets a builder’s loan for 10k. He does this because he’s got knowledge of programs the average person doesn’t because of his background. While he waits, he recruits a local designer. He has a meeting with his team, pitches the new concept, they buy in. He then assigns them different jobs, the beer manager takes he reigns and runs with it, the bbq manager kind of drops the ball at finding a pit master until he gets lectured on the timeframe. 

There is a nice moment where the guy realizes that, for the first time in a long time, people like him for who he is, not his money. He was never sure before in his old life. On a side note, I saw in an article that he’s a cancer survivor, it’s what inspired him to try to do it again. 

The group gets together at the house for demolition. It looks good until they stumble across what could be mould. He show ends implying that he’ll have huge cost overruns on the flip.

Nothing really seemed implausible. On a side note, the restaurant does exist, it is on the Internet, they don’t seem to have their own beer brand, but it does sell sauce and clothing, so the plans evolved again.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> Watched the lastest episode last night. No time to summarize it right now, I will do so tomorrow.



on 2nd thought please don't summarize ...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The guy started as a white male, with the health insurance plan worthy of a multi-millionaire, no student debts and no kids.

He already had a huge head start over many people, and the "deductible" payment of $250 would have been much higher if he didn't have good health insurance.

In reality, he would already be in debt shortly after he started and the show would have been over.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

humble_pie said:


> on 2nd thought please don't summarize ...


Yeah, the success of others can really make others feel uncomfortable. Of course, I’m sure those people will come up with all sorts of excuses as to why it’s “fake” to justify why they could never do anything even close.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

May I ask how people are streaming the show? I have no cable, no satellite , only internet, Netflix and Hulu. 

Usually I can get the shows I want, but no luck so far.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> on 2nd thought please don't summarize ...


You can ignore the thread if you're not interested. But you don't have the right to tell others what they can or can't talk about.

Why don't you join a travel forum and tell people to not travel?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> Why don't you join a travel forum and tell people to not travel?


LOL!


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Wouldn’t it be more like travel is fake, no one can actually fly or cover hundreds of miles in a day. Anyone who says they travelled is lying. Crossing water indeed.

Get a good pair of sneakers, it’s the only way people can travel.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

I missed the 1st episode but my girlfriend and I watched 2 and 3. Although we're both now retired we both agreed that had we been in a similar situation as the people he recruited that we probably would have been on board because he inspired confidence and that the opportunity to be involved in what could potentially be part of a very successful business far outweighed the risk of working for a couple months and not getting paid.

I can see why this man was successful and went far.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

He also seems to have given them the business. All of his team is listed as owners on the business, he’s not mentioned at all.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> He also seems to have given them the business. All of his team is listed as owners on the business, he’s not mentioned at all.


Spoiler!!


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

I think Humble was just suggesting that a thread with updates of some staged reality tv show is lame.
But I agree, those of us with no interest should/will just skip this thread.
I'm biased, I don't watch any tv regularly.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I think certain people routinely attack alternative thinking. Anything they can’t do themselves, which is a large list in some cases, is a target for “ridicule” and “scorn”. They do it in any threat which threatens their ideals. They are compelled to attack it rather than face the possibilities of their own inadequacies.

Probably more to do with that than it being a reality show. Just imagine what would happen to these people’s world if the guy succeeded...probably nothing, of course, because they’d still refuse to believe it’s possible, that it was just a reality tv stunt. The idea that someone could build up a million dollar business in 3 months is like saying people could fly.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Prairie Guy said:


> Spoiler!!



Not really. He states several times if he doesn’t make the million dollar business, he’d put a million dollars of his own money into it to make it work.

I believe all participants in reality shows generally get compensated in some form.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

sags said:


> The guy started as a white male, with the health insurance plan worthy of a multi-millionaire, no student debts and no kids.
> 
> He already had a huge head start over many people, and the "deductible" payment of $250 would have been much higher if he didn't have good health insurance.
> 
> In reality, he would already be in debt shortly after he started and the show would have been over.


Yeah that's right,this guy is so lucky he got cancer and lost his business, if you don't start the race half way to the finish line might as well shoot yourself in the head (sarkylert).


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> I saw the episode, first one I’ve watched.
> 
> His plans to open a brewery hits the ropes because he can’t get a brewers license in 90 days. Changes the plans a bit, to open a bbq restaurant that serves local beer. It will also sell sauces, rubs, clothes and their own brand of beer over the Internet.
> 
> ...


Thanks for doing the update Just a Guy, saves me a few minutes.

I found it interesting how he 'pivots' when he finds out he can't get a license within his timeframe. He didn't just give up on the beer and decide to try something else, he actually improved on his original idea. He still intends to sell beer but has added a BBQ restaurant and an online product line. He didn't give up at all and he not only 'pivoted' he pivoted to an even better plan!

I also noted the moment when he admitted to sometimes feeling insecure about friendships and how these people like him for who he is, not how much money he has. He couldn't as he says, 'just flip a switch to no money and ask, now do you still like me.' That is a common thought I believe that many people who are either financially well off or famous for some reason, no doubt have.

I saw nothing implausable in his buying the house and getting a construction loan as an 'imposter' so to speak. It was a bank foreclosure I think and he had a down payment to give the bank. The loan is no doubt based on the equity of the house itself with no real risk to the lender. There is no real reason for the bank to ask, 'who is this guy'. He has a name, an address and money in hand.

I like how he is continuing to get help and advice from the Small Business Center and how he got the Interior Designer on board by relating with her about himself and her Father. How could she not want to help him?

I also like how he gave team members specific roles and responsibility for making it happen. How he specifically asked them out loud, 'ARE YOU IN'. He got them to commit even though they are not being paid. Regardless of how 'contrived' anyone wants to try and say the whole thing is, I would like to see any of those naysayers find 5 strangers who in a couple of weeks would say to them, 'YES, I AM IN' to something. That takes some doing and some person.

I didn't note a plan to have their own beer, as part of the pivot I only understood the intent to involve local micro-breweries and sell their top brand beers. I thought that was not only a good way to support local breweries but also a very smart thought when he talked about customers being able to go to one place to sample all brands instead of having to go to half a dozen separate breweries to sample their beers.

Another 'spoiler'. Did you notice that the woman at the Business Center mentioned a BBQ competition that was upcoming? Well, as I understand it, they entered that competition and actually tied for Best Ribs!

I'm enjoying watching this series and I have to say I'm liking this guy more and more. He's someone I think I would like to know personally. He's just got no 'quit' in him.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> Wouldn’t it be more like travel is fake, no one can actually fly or cover hundreds of miles in a day. Anyone who says they travelled is lying. Crossing water indeed.
> 
> Get a good pair of sneakers, it’s the only way people can travel.


LOL, yeah, that's a real analogy.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Prairie Guy said:


> I missed the 1st episode but my girlfriend and I watched 2 and 3. Although we're both now retired we both agreed that had we been in a similar situation as the people he recruited that we probably would have been on board because he inspired confidence and that the opportunity to be involved in what could potentially be part of a very successful business far outweighed the risk of working for a couple months and not getting paid.
> 
> I can see why this man was successful and went far.


My thinking is the same Prairie Guy. He got perfect strangers to buy in to something in just a couple of weeks of knowing him. That is not something to be sneezed at. Not many people could inspire that kind of confidence in that time frame. In addition, while a couple of them have other sources of income, there are also a couple who are unemployed and struggling and yet have still bought in.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

The won a jr competitor award at the rib competition...it’s on their website. 

Having worked with a lot of startups over the years, I often had some creative payment methods. I often “bought in” to companies, exchanging work for say stock, so that part of the show didn’t strike me as unusual. Some of this went to zero, some of it paid off nicely. No risk, no reward.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> I think Humble was just suggesting that a thread with updates of some staged reality tv show is lame.
> But I agree, those of us with no interest should/will just skip this thread.
> I'm biased, I don't watch any tv regularly.


But I notice you are 'watching' this thread. LOL


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> The idea that someone could build up a million dollar business in 3 months is like saying people could fly.


You mean other people can't fly? Huh, who woulda known. :tongue:


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

All the average person needs to succeed is $100 and.......

Paid premiums for the health care plan of a billionaire.

An advance team that meets with the police chief and mayor to make sure he isn't hassled by police when sleeping in his truck or other activities.

An advance team that performs background checks on people he "will meet"......presumably randomly in the future..........LOL.

Have an entourage with cameras walking around with you so people have an interest in even talking to you about "a deal" for their own minute of fame.

Have an advance team that arranges for people to give you a job to help out a reality show's production.

“I would have had better luck hitting the lottery and winning $1 million dollars than this happening,” Messenger said. “That’s how I personally feel. Because, now, looking back at this whole thing, you’re talking about a guy like Glenn Stearns and a film crew, for some reason, out of every city in the entire country, they want to pick Erie, Pennsylvania. *And then, on top of that, they want to come here and look around and choose me and a handful of other people to kind of use us to say, ’Hey listen, we have this idea, do you want to help this guy out? Do you want to give him a job at your store for a little bit?”
*
The reality is this show is fake as a $3 bill.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

It’s interesting that the critics can only see the one way of doing things. If they can’t duplicate things exactly, they see it as impossible. 

I look back at building my various businesses over the years and I too often had to pivot. My company is still changing, as you run into issues, you must change or fail. The funny thing is, people have tried to copy me and failed. How is it that they could fail where I succeeded? Was what I did a fluke? Nope, the circumstances are just different. They are different people, they reacted differently, the times were different. 

It’s the same as the pet rock, not everyone can sell a pet rock, but that doesn’t mean one person couldn’t have become a millionaire selling it. Could everyone go into Eire and duplicate what this guy did, not a chance. That doesn’t change the fact that this guy did do it.

One way to tell if you’re the type to fail at a similar situation is when you look at the ideas being presented and can’t see any alternative. If you have to copy someone else exactly, then there is no hope for you. Seeing a different opportunity is what would make you successful. I find it interesting that the guy also went to food, which was my idea when I thought about ways to do it, but he didn’t duplicate the food I suggested.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Be honest sags...you have absolutely no use for people like this until they strike it rich. Then you would demand a cut because it's not fair that they have more than you.

You would never once consider doing the work or taking the risk yourself but you would quite happily live off of someone else's hard work. Because that's "fair" in your world.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I just saw this commercial and I couldn’t help but think how Sags would react if he realized how true it is in their case. 

https://youtu.be/WgmJ_ivEVvw

Maybe they’d need a sugar pooch to support them, certainly wouldn’t be able to change their life.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> The won a jr competitor award at the rib competition...it’s on their website.
> 
> Having worked with a lot of startups over the years, I often had some creative payment methods. I often “bought in” to companies, exchanging work for say stock, so that part of the show didn’t strike me as unusual. Some of this went to zero, some of it paid off nicely. No risk, no reward.


They won the Junior first place and they tied for overall Best Ribs. Two wins.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> It’s interesting that the critics can only see the one way of doing things. If they can’t duplicate things exactly, they see it as impossible.
> 
> I look back at building my various businesses over the years and I too often had to pivot. My company is still changing, as you run into issues, you must change or fail. The funny thing is, people have tried to copy me and failed. How is it that they could fail where I succeeded? Was what I did a fluke? Nope, the circumstances are just different. They are different people, they reacted differently, the times were different.
> 
> ...


I would probably never have thought of food. I always think of food businesses as just too fraught with potential problems. Having said that though I did go into the bar business which is probably just as difficult unless you can come up with an 'edge'.

I think I'll tell sags a story and see how he tries to pick holes in it.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> All the average person needs to succeed is $100 and.......
> 
> Paid premiums for the health care plan of a billionaire.
> 
> ...


This is a true story sags, let me know what you make of it.

Once upon a time, a guy was bumming around in Europe and arrived on an island. It was a beautiful island, very popular with tourists and full of hotels, bars and restuarants to serve them.

This guy spent some time enjoying the island and just never got around to leaving, he was retired and had enough income to stay as long as he wanted to. One day, in the quite 'off season' of winter, a local acquaintance asked him what he planned to do once the tourist season started up again. The answer was he planned to do nothing other than enjoy what the island had to offer in season. His acquaintance and several others started telling him, 'no, no, you can't do that. All you will do is laze around, sit in a bar at night, drink and chase tourist women.' That didn't sound like such a bad idea to our guy but they kept pestering him, day after day.

So finally our guy thought, 'OK, how can I sit around, have a drink, chase tourist women and still seem to be 'doing something'? The answer that came to him was, 'I'll open my own bar. That way I will be 'in business' but still able to do just what I want.' 

So it happened that among the people he had met since arriving on the island, were several people who owned or worked in bars. Not surprising he had met them is it. One of them had worked in his brother's bar for years but had never had enough money to open his own bar. In fact, in our guy's opinion, this younger brother was the major part of the reason why the older brother's bar was doing decent business.

So our guy asked the younger brother, 'how much would it take to open a bar?'. The younger brother (let's now start calling him V) did some calculating on a napkin where they were having their morning coffee as they did every day and came up with a number of around $30k Canadian. Our guy (let's start calling him R), said, 'OK, let's do it. I can come up with the $30k.' So we are now at the equivalent point where in the Undercover Billionaire series, that the funds exist to start, without having to go through selling tires, cars and flipping a house to get that start up money.

R and V then came to agreement on a 50/50 partnership. R puts up the $30k while V puts up a property located right on the busiest street for bars, on the entire island. V's family owns the building, it's a semi-derelict old house actually that they have been renting out to workers who work in other bars on the street. The family is agreeable to letting V and R rent it cheaply to help V get into his own business.

Now I can already hear you sags saying, 'oh yeah, so what's the chances that someone meets someone who just happens to have a property available to them that is on the busiest street for bars on the entire island?' Well sags, the fact is this is a true story and someone DID meet such a person. What's more, besides already knowing this property existed, R also already knew that V was very capable of running a bar which meant R didn't need to know anything at all about the bar business and in fact R didn't know anything at all about running a bar R just found a solution to his problem of how to look like he was doing something while still doing just what he wanted to do, sitting in a bar, having a drink and chasing tourist women. If R had not met THAT person and found THAT solution, R would just have found a DIFFERENT solution.

The bar was renovated with R's $30K (on budget) and was quite successful. Enough so that in the first year R and V both made a comfortable income from it, say the equivalent of a GM assembly line worker at least. Oh, I almost forgot. The tourist season lasts just 6 months of the year, so that means your income for the year must be earned in those 6 months, then you take the other 6 months off. 

After a few years, R sold out his 50% to V but until today, as part of the agreement when he sold out, R drinks in that bar for free whenever he chooses to visit. The bar is still going strong these days and it's hard for R to believe how long it's been but it's been 30 years since they opened that bar.

https://www.tripadvisor.ca/Attracti...odes_Town_Rhodes_Dodecanese_South_Aegean.html


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The premise of the show and some of the postings is that work is for suckers and it is easy to build a successful business within a few months.

That theory questions the ability of people rather than the strength of the theory, as do some of the posts as well. 

It isn't a practical scenario that is applicable in real life.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> The premise of the show and some of the postings is that work is for suckers and it is easy to build a successful business within a few months.
> 
> That theory questions the ability of people rather than the strength of the theory, as do some of the posts as well.
> 
> It isn't a practical scenario that is applicable in real life.


And that is your response to the story I just wrote sags? That bar was opened in 3 months from idea to opening night. It's still going strong 30 years later so I would tend to call that a 'successful business built within a few months'. Am I wrong? 

Come on sags, admit it can be done sometimes by someone even if not by everyone. I've given you proof of it being done, are you going to try and deny that?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I actually know a guy who owned a restaurant/bar in Canada and went to the islands to open a bar on the beach.

A few years later he was back. It seems that islanders don't have the money to spend sitting in a bar and can buy liquor cheaply anyways. It also seemed that tourists stay in "all inclusive" resorts and don't spend their money sitting in a bar outside the resort. It seems that even though there were several cruise ships docking at the island and offloading thousands of tourists every day, their time on the island was limited and they didn't spend it sitting in a bar drinking. At the end of the day the tourists all gathered in a huge bar (operated as a chain of bars in the Caribbean) and spend the last few minutes mingling with the other passengers.......then they all went back to the ship to have dinner and drink.

When the guy actually broke down his "business plan", he didn't have many customers and the few that were looking for a drink had lots of other bars to choose from.

You also glossed over some relevant facts such as the local governments don't let people just set up a bar and make money. There are many levels of government to work through before the bar will ever earn a dime. They all charge money for you to be there. You also glossed over the fact that if the owner isn't present during the working hours of the bar, or have someone in authority who is present, the employees will steal him blind. It may not be cash they steal, but for sure their friends will gather around for free drinks.

Maybe it could be a success with some changes, but it wasn't the booming success he thought it would be. He did have the opportunity to get drunk every day though.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

P.S..........what makes you think that somebody in Canada would see a business opportunity that nobody on the island could figure out ?

P.P.S........I also know guys who owned a private club/bar that had karaoke, pool tables on some food and entertainment. They went bust.

The "let's open a bar" is one of the oldest business ideas in the world, often recited by young intoxicated males having a good time.

Heck......my buddies and me used to discuss it from time to time.......between rounds of beers.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

It’s funny, Sags seems to imply people set up businesses designed to fail within 3 months. I’d think every business is designed to be successful fairly quickly. My first company started for less than $100 and was self funding from day one. Never got a bank loan, negotiated a delay for the first month’s rent, got an advance on the contracts to buy equipment and have been running it for well over 20 years. 

As for living in a truck, I was just in Montreal, there’s a park just outside of old Montreal where the homeless are expected to live. Not every city will hassle people who sleep in a truck. These people were sleeping on cardboard. When I asked about it, the locals said that’s part of how they deal with the homeless problem in that city. 

Of course comrade sags probably thinks this is a lie. Not that they’d house any homeless. BTW, a number of the ones I saw were those privileged “white males” who have all the advantages in life.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> I actually know a guy who owned a restaurant/bar in Canada and went to the islands to open a bar on the beach.
> 
> A few years later he was back. It seems that islanders don't have the money to spend sitting in a bar and can buy liquor cheaply anyways. It also seemed that tourists stay in "all inclusive" resorts and don't spend their money sitting in a bar outside the resort. It seems that even though there were several cruise ships docking at the island and offloading thousands of tourists every day, their time on the island was limited and they didn't spend it sitting in a bar drinking. At the end of the day the tourists all gathered in a huge bar (operated as a chain of bars in the Caribbean) and spend the last few minutes mingling with the other passengers.......then they all went back to the ship to have dinner and drink.
> 
> ...


It's amazing how you can use one story of failure which by the way seems to be to have been set up for failure in the first place, to try and deny a story of success. Your guy opened a bar in a location where bars don't do business for all the reasons why it failed and those are things he should have seen BEFORE he started. That would have told him opening a bar there was a bad idea. In my example, I told you the bar R and V opened was on the busiest street for successful bars on the island. If you bothered to click on the link I provided, it isn't hard to see that bar is still going strong. It's nothing like your example of someone making a bad decision.

A proven location which only required R and V to decide how they would differentiate themselves from the rest of the successful bars on the street. Decide who they wanted to attract as customers. Yes, I glossed over some things re bureaucracy etc. I wasn't trying to write a book, it was long enough even in the condensed version. But if you want some more information on what R and V got right and how they dealt with local government bureaucracy etc. I have no problem providing that info.

First, they decided to concentrate on attracting Brit tourists. Hence the name of the bar for a start. They chose Brits for 2 reasons. One, most of the bars on the street catered to Scandinavians and only one was catering to Brits, so less competition for their target market segment. Second, Scandinavians tend to 'bar hop' from one to another having one drink or two and moving on with no thought of returning tomorrow. Brits on the other hand tend to want to have a 'local' as they are used to back home. So when they find a bar they like, they tend to return every night of their vacation and spend all their drinking hours in that bar. If you can get a Brit to see your bar as his 'local' then you have him for their entire stay usually. In your example, your guy obviously didn't have a clue what market he was going to cater for or he would have realized that in fact there was no real market for him to appeal to.

Second, locals do often discourage 'outsiders'. That's why R didn't just open a bar on his own, he realized that and that's part of the reason why he partnered with V. V was a local with all the contacts necessary. For example, an English guy arrived on the island at the same time with the intent of opening a bar for Brits. He wanted to go it alone. It took him 2 YEARS to get his license because local government put all kinds of obstacles in his way to try and discourage him. Again, R didn't do that, R realized he needed a local partner to avoid those issues.

R and V opened in 3 months and the way they did that even though V was a local, was to hire a 'facilitator'. That was a local guy who had connections in 'high places' so to speak. So their application for a license was 'hand walked' by the facilitator through all the necessary departments of City Hall and through other things like the Fire Department sign off before you can open. The renovation contractor they hired was a cousin of the Mayor of the town, permits for the work done were therefore not held up at all. Knowing to do that was down to V obviously. Your guy, like the English guy who started at the same time as R and V did not have that knowledge obviously.

Employees can 'steal you blind' as you say if an owner is not there. That's why either R or V was always in the bar when it was open and all they did was handle the till. The bar staff was overseen at all times. Gee, what a revelation to say staff can 'steal you blind', who would have thought of that? Answer, anyone with half a brain. But R and V both had more than half a brain. 

P.S. what makes you think that someone from Canada SAW a business opportunity that nobody on the island could figure out? The street that R and V opened there bar on was full of other bars making money. As were a great many other bars elsewhere on the island as well. They didn't need to see an opportunity others couldn't see, they just had to be in a position and WILLING to ACT on what they could see.

P.P.S. I also know guys who opened other bars with karaoke, pool tables, food and entertainment. They were successful. Gee, does your guys you know who went bust mean my guys I know who succeeded don't count? 

Heck, you and your buddies discussed it between rounds of beer but that's ALL you did obviously, discuss it. R and V did that and then they DID it. 

Why is it sags that you don't want to acknowledge that SOME people can take an idea and make it work? You really seem to want to say, 'NO ONE can do this', even when being given factual evidence of it being done. That bar I have told you about is not fantasy, it is real, you can see the link, you can see it is successful 30 years down the road.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I have noticed this shift in some mass tourism destinations that Canadians go to, to go 'all-inclusive'. It seems as if every ad in the travel section of the Saturday Toronto Star, Travel Section, for example is for an 'all-inclusive vacation'. Back 30 years ago, there were very few all-inclusive hotels around. 

I'm trying to imagine someone going to a location like one of the Caribbean islands, Mexico or Cuba where most Canadian package tourists go and where most hotels now are indeed all-inclusive and decided that it would be a good idea to open a bar there.!!! I mean, how much intelligence does it take to know that if most tourists are staying in an all-inclusive hotel or only coming ashore from a cruise ship for a few hours, that the market for a bar is going to be very limited indeed.

Sags story of someone doing just that is really quite funny.

It reminds me of a German guy who arrived on the same island as R and V's bar. He rented premises in the middle of a small village on the island where few tourists were to be found. He then opened a German fast food restaurant serving thinks like bratwurst and sauerkraut. The only market was local people, not tourists and of course they were not interested in German food at all. He failed obviously and I'm sure never really figured out why that was. LOL


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Anyone else notice that sags tends to surround themselves with losers and people who fail?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Even if your story is bang on.........you have two guys working full time jobs to operate a small time bar.

If you think running a bar is easy work....give it a try for a day. 

Somebody has to lug all the liquor and beer around, order and cook the food, clean the dishes, mop the floors, clean the bathrooms, break up the fights........

What you describe is hardly a pathway to success that doesn't involve working at a job. They are working hard at a job.

Frankly, if the pictures are any indication of crowd size........I would be surprised if they made much of a living off that bar.

Anyone with any experience knows you have to have a lot of volume to earn much money in the bar business.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> Even if your story is bang on.........you have two guys working full time jobs to operate a small time bar.
> 
> If you think running a bar is easy work....give it a try for a day.
> 
> ...


Oh sags, how little you know you don't know.

The R in the story was me, for real, so I know exactly how much work is involved in a bar and who has to do it. The workers do the work sags and I just counted the cash. I showed up each day at 8pm and left at midnight or I showed up at midnight and left at 3am. V and I took turns with those hours. Typically, I slept in every day till noon or later and then went to my local coffee shop in the village to trade stories with my local friends. Later in the afternoon, I'd maybe go to the beach for a swim with my girlfriend at the time, who was 19 years younger than me and a 'real babe' as they used to say. After a nice home cooked dinner she would make us, we'd take a 'siesta'. Then later still, I would head to the bar to 'work'. I'd drive there in my classic Flamenco Red MGB convertible with the top down. Actually the top went down in May and generally didn't go up again till the end of October even though it was parked outside every night. No rain you see. During the six months that the bar was closed, life was even more laid back of course.

So 'two guys working full time jobs', no, not really sags. Two guys each being present but not really working, 3-4 hours a day for 6 months and then taking 6 months off and living on what was in fact quite a decent living earned indeed. But I guess you just aren't gonna want to take my word for all that sags are you.

You really can't see what you don't want to see sags.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I’ve got a buddy who owns several Tim hortons. I say several because he acquires failing ones, turns them around and sells them to new franchises all the time. He has at least 4 that he keeps for himself. He’s very highly thought of by the franchise because of his success, they often offer him failing stores. 

Now, owning at least 4 stores, you’d think he works non-stop...except he rarely works. He hired a very good manager, pays her well, bought her a car and lets her do all the work. He helped her develop a system, including brining in foreign workers, which makes a timmy’s Very successful, and has her implement it. He doesn’t work at all, just signs the cheques.

Ironically, when I worked at my first company, it almost destroyed the company. It was so dependent on me that, when I got injured, it barely survived. Now that I don’t work there anymore the company, I completely restructured it, it is much more stable.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> Anyone else notice that sags tends to surround themselves with losers and people who fail?


Actually, you seem to be unusually attracted to him.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

He spreads the most information that needs correcting. It was worse before I put him on the ignore list.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> He spreads the most information that needs correcting. It was worse before I put him on the ignore list.


I see. You just cannot take it that somebody is wrong on the internet.

Like sags comments #171 that working in a bar requires a lot of hard work. Fake News story.

On the other hand, I know a lady in her thirties who works in bars/restaurants, somewhat addicted to tips; just advanced to be a restaurant manager, still not getting ahead. Sick of getting home well after midnight. Occasionally requiring money from the Bank of Mom and Dad. Still renting. She should listen to right people, watch right TV (she is up late at night anyway), and buy a house with “no money down,” as any 18yo high schooler would do. Unfortunately, she gets discouraged by people like sags, who spread misleading stories, like the one about his son unable to buy RE without a down payment. 

So maybe you are right correcting his info. Readers, like the lady I mentioned, surely will appreciate it.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Oh yes, the job thing is working out so well for her, I suggest she tries to form a union. 

You may not believe my 19 year old son bought a property, and got 100% financing (it’s not like he grew up in that environment his whole life as opposed to a paycheque parent) but that doesn’t make it a lie. Unlike the friend of yours not doing well on a paycheque, which I also believe to be true.

I suggest she continues to follow sag’s advice, it’s working well for her maybe she can move back into the basement of her parent’s. have her keep doing the same thing hopping for different results, that always works.

My son will follow my advice, he doesn’t care if you or sags believes it’s possible.

Of course, all the other posters on here who’ve also done this type of thing are just my other logins. It’s all a conspiracy.

P.S. How’s the bar owner doing in comparison, are they financed by the bank of mom and dad? Much better to be the employee than a business owner.

P.P.S. Is she declairing all that tip money or is she evading taxes?

P.P.P.S. According to the Service industry, the average waiter makes $17/hr just in tips (you can look it up). Add that to minimum wage and she should be doing very well (bar staff generally make more than average tips as the average includes restaurants which tend to tip lower). Why does she need the bank of mom and dad, especially if she’s evading taxes.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> ...
> P.P.S. Is she declairing all that tip money or is she evading taxes?
> 
> P.P.P.S. According to the Service industry, the average waiter makes $17/hr just in tips (you can look it up). Add that to minimum wage and she should be doing very well (bar staff generally make more than average tips as the average includes restaurants which tend to tip lower). Why does she need the ank of mom and dad, especially if she’s evading taxes.


Holly cow, why have we pivoted from hard work in a restaurant to evading taxes?

P.S. Is a no/low income high-schooler buying 100% financed real estate a way to shift taxes from the high-income parent?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Because most wait staff don’t declare tips and evade taxes. Have you ever worked in the industry? I have and know what happens in it. You don’t seem to have an issue when sags criticizes the rich for not paying taxes (its a lot harder to evade taxes in real estate where there’ a paper trail for everything, than a cash tip scenario), but the “poor” (who actually make a ton of money in this case, if she doesn’t in that industry there is something wrong) are allowed to evade taxes?

I do notice you failed to answer any of the questions...

This article talks about how much wait staff should make...
https://nationalpost.com/news/the-1...myth-some-hard-truths-about-tipping-in-canada

This article talks about how tips must be declared...
https://turbotax.intuit.ca/tips/can-gratuities-be-taxed-in-canada-150

And this article talks about the CRa crackdown on undeclared tips...
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...for-restaurant-and-bar-staff/article38025478/

As for your question, No because he bought the property himself right off an MLS listing. He’s also a post secondary student who, in case you’ve never attended post secondary, banks tend to throw money at. In fact, we were at the bank the other day depositing a cheque and he was offered an unsecured line of credit without asking for it. They noticed he was going into second year and just offered it to him. Just because he duplicates my system doesn’t mean he gets any help from me.

Oh, and he also had a well paying summer job, about double minimum wage on a job he got himself, with no work experience and only one year of post secondary. How did he land such a thing? He didn’t apply at McDonalds, he applied at a big company. I’m sure a well rounded background, a good work ethic, and being the top of his class didn’t hurt either. 

How did you really think one could shift taxes by adding more taxable income/assets? Do you understand how the tax system works?

You’d think someone who tells it like it really is, not some late night TV scammer, would be able to answer the questions unlike someone who has to “make up all the answers”. Must be my great imagination, not your lack of reality.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I just watched the first 3 episodes yesterday...seems pretty staged. lol at searching for tires!! Anyway good entertainment. 100% he succeeds as that's the script it seems.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

What’s so odd about searching for tires? Every day, thousands of people are dumpster diving to survive. They go for bottles and anything they can sell. People throw out a lot of useful stuff, especially at the end of the month when they have to move. It’s an unfortunate reality, which I see whenever I go down back alleys.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Who needs an education, a good job, or union representation when they can dumpster dive ?

People just don't see the opportunities lying ahead of them in a big green bin.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Banks loan 100% mortgage financing and unsecured lines of credit to post secondary students with no savings, no income, no job and no credit history ?

Who would have thunk it ?


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> ...
> As for your question, No because he bought the property himself right off an MLS listing. He’s also a post secondary student who, in case you’ve never attended post secondary, banks tend to throw money at. In fact, *we were *at the bank the other day depositing a cheque and he was offered an unsecured line of credit without asking for it. They noticed he was going into second year and just offered it to him. Just because he duplicates my system doesn’t mean he gets any help from me...


It may be different where you live, but on a playground around here, a kid with a big older brother is treated differently than a kid with a younger sister. So I've got a hunch that "we" is an operative word here.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Not our usual branch, they didn’t know me at this one as we only went in to deposit cheques. When it was his turn, they saw he was going into second year and made the offer. It was even a different teller. He was depositing a $73 GST rebate cheque, in case you think I gave him some large cheque or something. No “we” other than we were at the same place at the same time. 

I gather you never went to post secondary by your knowledge. You can’t walk anywhere on campus in the first week without being barraged by credit offers. The credit people set up booths for car loans, credit cards, student loans right by the registration area, the food areas, the bars...and they’ve been doing it for generations, I certainly remember them from my day.

But thank you for playing...still haven’t answered any questions (wonder who is making things up and doesn’t really know their subject matter)...


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

If you don't believe it possible to buy a house with no money down perhaps I should tell you I did my first no money down real estate deal, for an 8 unit apartment house, when I was 22 years old, in 1973. This was before any of the 'no money down' books or courses had been published.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I bought my 1st condo with no money down. Not too hard to do but with a 2 month timeline very hard to monetize. That's why I know this show is rigged a bit. Nothing happens that fast and $500 worth of used tires don't appear when you have $10 bucks left lol.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> Not our usual branch, they didn’t know me at this one as we only went in to deposit cheques. When it was his turn, they saw he was going into second year and made the offer. It was even a different teller. He was depositing a $73 GST rebate cheque, in case you think I gave him some large cheque or something. No “we” other than we were at the same place at the same time.
> 
> I gather you never went to post secondary by your knowledge. You can’t walk anywhere on campus in the first week without being barraged by credit offers. The credit people set up booths for car loans, credit cards, student loans right by the registration area, the food areas, the bars...and they’ve been doing it for generations, I certainly remember them from my day.
> 
> But thank you for playing...still haven’t answered any questions (wonder who is making things up and doesn’t really know their subject matter)...


Well, you are so convinced that I have to accept that you have an exceptional kid, a star RE businessman, future owner of many doors.

But my kid was also exceptional and bright, had to refuse some scholarships because they were over the maximum, and I still had to co-sign the student loan. I do not remember about the apartment rental if I had to co-sign, but I definitely was interviewed by the owner and had to be involved, both in Canada and in the US later on. Obviously my kid and I are losers, like sags people.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

I'm LOLing at searching for tires, not only do they have no salvage value, you have to pay to get rid of them. Unless he found some good enough to use on a car, and then he could only sell them to some poor person, no tire dealer would buy them.

You can find piles of tires thrown out in random locations in ditches, vacant lots, abandoned factories etc because people don't want to pay to recycle them.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Does not seem all that strange consider I pass a place that has a sign out offering used tires on the way to work.

As for "don't want to pay to recycle them" - some states have the recycling fee build into the price when buying. 
https://www.tirebuyer.com/education/tire-disposal-fees-collected-by-tirebuyer


Cheers


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> My son will follow my advice



alas poor Yorick you've trained him well


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Parkuser said:


> Well, you are so convinced that I have to accept that you have an exceptional kid, a star RE businessman, future owner of many doors.
> 
> But my kid was also exceptional and bright, had to refuse some scholarships because they were over the maximum, and I still had to co-sign the student loan. I do not remember about the apartment rental if I had to co-sign, but I definitely was interviewed by the owner and had to be involved, both in Canada and in the US later on. Obviously my kid and I are losers, like sags people.



First off, I thought you were talking about you’re wildly successful 30 something waitress...how did this become about you?

Secondly, my kid being successful doesn’t mean other kids won’t be successful. It’s not an either or scenario. Just like the fact that since you can’t seem to buy a property without a downpayment, doesn’t mean other can’t as well. My son won’t become a brain surgeon, he doesn’t want to, so what? You are afraid of real estate, does that mean the world will be too? Not everyone can make money in real estate, even among those who actually try.

Hey, if you’re happy working 40+ hours a week in a job, great. Some of us prefer not having to work. Some of us find doing whatever we want, whenever we want to be a better option. Where we differ is, you seem to think that a job is the only option out there and I prefer to correct people’s perspective on that. You’re the one that finds the idea so threatening that you feel compelled to attack it and call it impossible. (Even though I probably logged in with a couple of fake accounts of mine to show other people have done the same thing)

I remember back just before university and got turned down for a credit card. A friend of mine, who’d never held a job longer than two weeks walked into the bank to deposit a cheque and got a credit card without asking for it because he’d jut landed a job as night manager at A&W. A job he lost in the following two weeks. Did that mean I’d never get a credit card? Did he get an imaginary one? A few months later, after getting into university, I had a couple credit cards. Not sure how you think the success or failure of someone else is, in any way, tied to your success or failure, or your abilities.

Whatever your problems are, they are your problems...neither me, nor my son seem to share them. Who’d have thunk?


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

We started with your specific question:



Just a Guy said:


> Anyone else notice that sags tends to surround themselves with losers and people who fail?


and after a discussion I agreed, adding that I must be a loser too (according to your criteria.)

You asked if I've been to a post-secondary establishment, well, my sixties experiences are too old and cloudy, but I have a later experience with my kid. Pretty consistent with sags comments. So are my observations on a waitress I know. BTW, you "know" she is a tax cheat, I don't. 

You refuse to take YES for an answer.
Exactly like my wife.:05.18-flustered:


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Again, not sure how this comes around to you again, do you live in sag’s basement? I was pointing out that sags has never posted anything about knowing someone who ran a successful business or invested in stocks and did well, ever got a loan, ever was successful in real estate, etc. I hang out with plenty of successful people, as well as some not so much and I spend a lot of time volunteering with the poor and homeless. I know all types, yet sags doesn’t. Not sure how that relates to you, but you seem to want to bring it around to you. 

I never said she was a tax cheat, I see like sags you don’t actually read what you criticize, I asked you if she did. 

Since I don’t read Sags’ Postings anymore unless they are quoted, I don’t really know what his comments are. I do know a lot of people seem to think he needs correcting, not just me, but you probably didn’t read those types of postings. 

I’m glad you think the entire world has your experiences as opposed to anyone else’s. I’m sure everyone in the world, except for me and my fake sign ins, only works for unions and can’t get a loan. All those small business owners and landlords are just a figment of my imagination. Self made millionaires are only a fiction we tell our children because we want them to get a good union job. Loans are the work of the devil. No one can achieve more than you, anyone who says otherwise is lying. 

You and sags not to mention your successful server are the epitome of success. No one moves out of the basement anymore.

The world will always have those who are unable to succeed, even in the communist world sags hopes for. To be fair, sags doesn’t want to work for money either, he just wants someone else to give him money because earning it himself is impossible.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Eclectic12 said:


> Does not seem all that strange consider I pass a place that has a sign out offering used tires on the way to work.
> 
> As for "don't want to pay to recycle them" - some states have the recycling fee build into the price when buying.
> https://www.tirebuyer.com/education/tire-disposal-fees-collected-by-tirebuyer
> ...


When you buy tires in Ontario you pay a recycling fee but if you have old tires to get rid of you have to take them to a recycling center which could be 20 miles away (mine is) or if you drop them at a garage or tire store you have to pay them. This is why a lot of people dump old tires in ditches, vacant lots etc.

The place that sells used tires is probably a tire store or garage, and what they are selling is tires they took off cars when they sold a new set. They got paid a recycling fee, now they want to sell someone the tires, and get paid to install them.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I’m not sure why people like Sags, Humble, Parkuser, etc. Can’t accept the fact that someone else could be better than them. I’m not sure who the best current Olympic swimmer is, but I’m positive they can out swim me. Heck, out of the 7B people on the planet, I’m pretty sure I’m very close to the bottom of the list no question about it.

Are there better investors out there than me? Yup, i know a few personally. Am I threatened by it? Do i think they’re lying? Do I think it’s impossible to be more successful? Nope, I pick their brain at every opportunity. I’m always looking for ways to improve, yet some people are always looking for ways to justify their situation...makes no sense. Do we all make money the same way? Nope, we each found our own niche, they are all different because there are many ways to succeed. Are they the majority of people I know, nope. Success isn’t all that common. Are any of these people union employees...I think that answer is too obvious. 

Then again, I’m not a 30 something waitress who hasn’t been able to make ends meet in over a decade who refuses to change, nor do I respect them, so what would I know. I’m obviously not doing things right.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Interesting with the Tire fee. I have to pay it, but I can’t collect it back for recycling it like I can with bottles. The money, I hear, is given to companies who ultimately recycle the tires (in some cases that means it’s given to cement companies for burning the tires and then incorporating the ashes into the cement), but not just any company can apply, you have to be selected by the government...I don’t even think the playground people collect the fee.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I know lots of people who own successful businesses. I suspect we all do.

I also know they worked hard for their success, working harder and spending more time on their job, than most people ever will. 

I know it took many years to reach their level of success. I know they financed it out of family earnings and savings, because lenders don't hand out money like candy on Halloween.

Who I don't know is anyone who owns a successful business who would ever say the hours were short, the work was easy, and money just poured in.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

JAG,

I stand corrected. You are much worse than my wife.

Why do you need two additional fake accounts on the CMF? I'm baffled.

Buy your wizard kid a smartphone. He can use it to deposit cheques. No need to go to the branch.

P.S. Nobody likes me.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

JAG is a teaching machine.

I have learned some solid business principles that I can deploy in the future. 

I have learned that lenders love to hand out money to anyone who stumbles in the door, that people don't know the value of their homes and will sell for much less, that working is for suckers and pensions are for lazy people. I have learned that people can earn great money selling candy and other items at farmer markets. and I learned that picking only stocks that are going to go up in value is the best route to investing success.

I look forward to my further education.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Ever think there may be a reason to go into a bank? You know, like having the managers get to know you? It’s amazing that having a relationship with a bank can lead to benefits down the road...

I remember my wife going to a bank just after university and applying for a credit card. unfortunately, she’d paid off her student loan before it was registered on her credit rating (never paid any interest on the loan). It was also after university, when credit is harder to get. She was turned down. The manager however heard this and recognized her as my girlfriend, she chased her down and, because I had a relationship with the bank, she was given her card. I know managers at all my regular banks and even at banks I don’t do business (because they transferred banks) with that are close to me. I keep the relationships going every time I shop for mortgages, they know my history so I’m not some unknown guy coming in off the street with some idea and no known track record. I’ve actually mentored several managers on buying real estate, since they see the money and ask how I manage to find places so cheap (they also see the sale prices when I get mortgages).

But keep scanning in those cheques and wondering why the banks won’t lend you money.

P.S. maybe, just maybe, if a bunch of unrelated people treat you the same way, some may think it has more to do with you rather than the rest of the world.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

At any rate I watched ep 4...mold under the carpet haah...he went downstairs & mold was everywhere...I guess best to buy the house & then fake astonishment at your bad luck? Why not pop into the basement before making an offer? Maybe he will find a bag of Krugerrands hidden behind the drywall in ep5...that would make for good tv.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I'm LOLing at searching for tires, not only do they have no salvage value, you have to pay to get rid of them. Unless he found some good enough to use on a car, and then he could only sell them to some poor person, no tire dealer would buy them.
> 
> You can find piles of tires thrown out in random locations in ditches, vacant lots, abandoned factories etc because people don't want to pay to recycle them.


I never understand why some people will make a statement based simply on their opinion and not first do some research to see if what they think is the case actually is the case.

To write, 'have no salvage value' and 'use on a car' is simply not the case. First, he was not looking for and did not sell car tires. They were large tractor, construction equipment, tractor trailer size tires with one being off a military type vehicle. Second, even used car tires have salvage value as any quick search would tell you. Kijiji for example has plenty of used tires being advertised for sale. Some for cars, some for larger vehicles. 

So you have firmly put your foot in your mouth with your statements Rusty O'Tooole and demonstrated your ignorance of the used tire market. A new tire for something like say a road grader can cost $1200. You better believe they have a used value as well that is several hundred dollars each if in even half reasonable condition. And yes, such tires are thrown out at abandoned factories etc. which is where he found them.

So I'm LOLing at you LOLing when you are entirely wrong in your beliefs on the topic of used tires.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> I know lots of people who own successful businesses. I suspect we all do.
> 
> I also know they worked hard for their success, working harder and spending more time on their job, than most people ever will.
> 
> ...


That's the problem sags. You talk about people YOU know and then say they worked hard and long, etc. From that you then ASSUME anyone who succeeds in a business must have done the same. But that is an assumption which you do not do the research to find out or want to hear from anyone else, whether your assumptions are correct or not.

Although you can't actually say you 'know me' as in having met me in person, you certainly can say you know me as a poster here. I am now saying to you sags that I have owned successful businesses where 'the hours were short, the work was easy and money just poured in.' I'm described such a business to you already, a bar in a tourist destination.

So what is your response to that sags? You have a few choices. You can say, 'OK, I stand corrected, it can happen.' Or you can say, 'You are lying'. Or you can ignore it and pretend I never wrote it. Which do you choose sags?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> ... The place that sells used tires is probably a tire store or garage, and what they are selling is tires they took off cars when they sold a new set. They got paid a recycling fee, now they want to sell someone the tires, and get paid to install them.


And if the garage can find buyers, why can't an individual?
The only difference is that the garage has a built in pipeline to review for resalable tires instead of having to find from scratch.


Cheers


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> Ever think there may be a reason to go into a bank? You know, like having the managers get to know you? It’s amazing that having a relationship with a bank can lead to benefits down the road...
> 
> I remember my wife going to a bank just after university and applying for a credit card. unfortunately, she’d paid off her student loan before it was registered on her credit rating (never paid any interest on the loan). It was also after university, when credit is harder to get. She was turned down. The manager however heard this and recognized her as my girlfriend, she chased her down and, because I had a relationship with the bank, she was given her card. I know managers at all my regular banks and even at banks I don’t do business (because they transferred banks) with that are close to me. I keep the relationships going every time I shop for mortgages, they know my history so I’m not some unknown guy coming in off the street with some idea and no known track record. I’ve actually mentored several managers on buying real estate, since they see the money and ask how I manage to find places so cheap (they also see the sale prices when I get mortgages).
> 
> ...


I can relate to the story of your wife getting a card because of someone else's (your) relationship with a bank.

When I was living in Greece, at one point I wanted to cash in some Greek government bonds, exchange them to Pounds Sterling and withdraw the money in a form of a Cashier's Cheque. I wanted the money to pay for a classic car I was flying to the UK to buy. The bank was giving me a good deal of hassle over this and more or less saying, 'no we won't let you do that' (I'm simplifying here obviously). My landlord was a prominent person on the island with 'clout'. When I told him of my problem he accompanied me to the bank and I had the Cashier's Cheque in my hand in about 15 minutes.

In the Greek culture, a great deal depends on your family name and the 'face' it gives you. Some time after I had been renting from my landlord he said to me one day, 'If you wish, you may tell people you are 'under the protection of Ixxxxxx'. The Ixxxxx being his family name. I thought it a strange thing to say to me but gave it no real thought. Only some time later did I come to understand just what it meant. He was giving me 'face'. As a foreigner, I had none of my own for anyone to judge me by.

A loan (since that is in fact what credit terms are) to a perfect stranger with no security other than the reputation of someone else. 

When V and I opened the bar I have written about, V had 'face' on the island in regards to the bar industry. If I had ordered kegs of draft beer, cases of bottled beer and bottles of liquor on my own, I would have had to pay C.O.D. A 'credit history' check cannot be done on a little island, it's all about who you are known to be. No 'face', no credit. When we opened the bar and stocked it, we got 60 days credit based on V's 'face'.

After my landlord gave me 'face' by giving me the right to use his name, my 'face' was greater than V's! Simply because my landlord's name was of more importance on the island than V's. So, I could for example, talk to a new distributor of something and say, 'I want 90 days credit on the first order. I speak with the name of Ixxxxx.'


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Ironically, when I first started my own business, I worked fairly hard...not a 90 hour week kind of hard, but I was doing a lot for the business and it was moderately successful. It wasn’t until I got hurt and couldn’t work anymore that my attitude changed or, more correctly, I was forced to change.

I had to figure out ways to make money without working directly. That’s when I turned to investing initially and started looking into real estate. One of the comments from episode 3 was that, because of his background in financing properties, he knew about programs that the average person didn’t. Programs that would allow him to buy a property with a very low down payment and get a builder’s loan on top of that.

I can’t count the number of times I’ve been rejected for financing, but I’ve always kept on asking until the banks said yes. This year was among the hardest to get financing. I was rejected by several banks and mortgage brokers...seems I have too many properties and the rules changed. Even still I kept asking until I found financing at a bank who’d rejected me twice this year already. I just had to get in front of the right person. The one thing I learned is there is always a solution. In this case I didn’t get a mortgage, they gave me a blanket HELOC. 

In any case, getting back on topic, I actually found the more I offloaded my workload, the more successful my business became. When I worked hard, I was actually the limiting factor in my business growth. By hiring people to do what I did, the business grew a lot faster. By developing systems to follow, things became very efficient. I could not handle the amount of real estate I own, all over the place, if I tried to manage it all myself. I’ve got systems in place that outline my expectations step by step. When I buy a new place, my contractors know exactly what colour to paint, what floors to lay down, what lights to put in, etc. It’s a system, designed to save and make money. 

I’m actually no longer really needed in any of my businesses at all, yet they continue to expand and grow...doesn’t really fit in Sag’s theory of how businesses work, but then again he’s never run one. As for my investments, aside from finding new places, negotiating and signing a cheque I’m not really needed there either. My kid could easily take over, it’s not that hard a system any monkey could probably do it, but I didn’t raise him that way. He’s going to do it himself with no entitlement attitude.

I’ve found to many businesses “work hard” and sort of miss the big picture of running the company. It’s probably more effective to develop systems and hire people to do the actual work. My buddy with all the Tim Horton’s works that way. Rarely does he even go into a store, his manager does everything. In fact, most of the business guys I know work less. 

I guess you actually learn something by doing that you can’t by just assuming.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Eclectic12 said:


> And if the garage can find buyers, why can't an individual?
> The only difference is that the garage has a built in pipeline to review for resalable tires instead of having to find from scratch.
> 
> 
> Cheers



I just bought a used skid steer tire off of Kijiji. It was in a guy’s yard. He was a lot cheaper than buying it from even a used tire place. Got the tire and rim for less than $100. The used rim usually sells for twice that amount at least. I didn’t really need the tire, I needed the rim as someone didn’t torque the bolts correctly and it damaged the old rim.

The tire was in really good condition, genuine CAT parts. It really isn’t good business to waste money buying a new rim when a used one is just as good. Companies who waste money usually wind up needing it further down the road.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

_Another young fella with something to prove. 

I got to set myself up in the undertaking business. Stop doing all the skill work so another man can profit.

But then, do I want to wear a black suit?_

_Buster Scruggs....the gunslinger_.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There you go........guys with dreams of great success without earning it are buying used tires and rims.

My long time friend owns a transport company. I was often at his sprawling rural property and noticed a brand new Lincoln Navigator in his garage.

A couple months later I was back at his house and there were 2 new Lincoln Navigators in his garage.

"You bought another one", I asked ? "Yea", he said. "My accountant said I had to buy something for the business or I would be paying it in taxes anyways. I listed my wife as VP of the company and she drives it." 

My friend started out working as a shunter in a warehouse and was laid off when his employer lost the contract. 

He took contracts nobody else would bother with and built the business slowly over decades of long hours and sacrifice.

And here on this thread we have people scrounging around buying used tires, while claiming ownership of many successful businesses.

They talk the talk, but have no idea how to walk the walk of success. I am sure my friend doesn't buy used tires for his fleet of trucks.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> And if the garage can find buyers, why can't an individual?
> The only difference is that the garage has a built in pipeline to review for resalable tires instead of having to find from scratch.
> 
> 
> Cheers


The point is he magically found the tires just when he needed them. They were even laying on the ground as they would be too large for him to wrestle out of a bin. Bit too convenient haha.

I have sold used truck tires myself...they are not laying around....ever....unless they are screwed, not able to be recapped,or over 5 years old(that makes em worthless...yes even the loader tires)


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

LTR's tale of heading to the beach in his red convertible with his gorgeous girlfriend put me in mind of a Chuck Berry song.

_Riding along in my automobile
My baby beside me at the wheel
I stole a kiss at the turn of a mile
My curiosity running wild
Cruisin' and playin' the radio
With no particular place to go

Riding along in my automobile
I'm anxious to tell her the way I feel
So I told her softly and sincere
And she leaned and whispered in my ear
Cuddlin' more and drivin' slow
With no particular place to go

No particular place to go
So we parked way out on Kokomo
The night was young and the moon was gold
So we both decided to take a stroll
Can you image the way I felt?
I couldn't unfasten her safety belt

Riding along in my calaboose
Still trying to get her belt a-loose
All the way home I held a grudge
For the safety belt that wouldn't budge
Cruisin' and playing the radio
With no particular place to go_

_Wouldn't it be nice_ if the Beach Boys were playing on the radio......


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> I know lots of people who own successful businesses. I suspect we all do.
> 
> I also know they worked hard for their success, working harder and spending more time on their job, than most people ever will.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone here is saying started a business is easy. In the early days, it takes hard work and a lot of it, and there is a failure rate. HOWEVER, for some that can persevere, the rewards are much bigger than being an employee. It takes work, perseverance, and some out of the box thinking. Once they get through that first hump, if they can replicate their system, then it's is easier to replicate (still may take work), then there is a point where if you have done well, your systems self run. 

There seems to be the extreme arguments that some are over flippant in their comment about how 'easy it is to do a business or make money. It's not easy, it's just different. Then the other side is poking holes at every piece saying why it won't work. The key in this is finding what works for you. 




> Just a Guy;2037468]Ever think there may be a reason to go into a bank? You know, like having the managers get to know you? It’s amazing that having a relationship with a bank can lead to benefits down the road...


Very true. It does help if you have a banking relationship in person. My family has always been pretty old school (primarily because my parents just old). They used to go weekly in the banks and the branch knows them by name. When I had to take over the POA, it was very complicated. I could have done a lot over the phone but the fastest results were in person, and I choose their branch. Banks will do things for people they know.

I have had the benefit of having older siblings and we actually work as a unit when it comes to some of the big thinks. I used their real estate agents, mortgage brokers, advisors. Many of them took me on because of my older siblings and parents when I didn't have much of a net worth. I have remained with them. My nieces and nephews and even my young kids are doing the same thing and meet with the banks and advisors in person. We had one incident with an advisor who sold his practice to a new person. We gave him a try as a family, and noticed he gave different treatment to one sibling (highest net worth) but was blowing off the rest of the extended family and was no longer looking out for our interests. As a result, the WHOLE family, so 14+ were moved to someone else we had a relationship with. 

I think people really under estimate the power of going in. I still don't love it, but we show our face in the bank for our major transactions.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Eder said:


> The point is he magically found the tires just when he needed them. They were even laying on the ground as they would be too large for him to wrestle out of a bin. Bit too convenient haha


Umm, I didn’t see the episode, but this sounds like something Sags would hope for. Was the guy just sitting around in his truck when “suddenly” two big tires just appeared in front of him?

Or...

Did he get off his butt and explore a bunch of abandoned properties looking for them when he stumbled across them? My son just brought home a brand new truck tire he found on the side of the road. People abandon stuff all the time. It takes some effort to go around and find/collect them. As I said in another post, many poor people dumpster dive, especially on move out days, because people throw out good stuff they can sell/pawn. It’s not staged for them, the reason they find the stuff is they looked for it.

There was nothing really “magical” about it, he just went and looked, something which a bunch of critics probably would never consider doing. Like most of the other money making ideas outside of a job get treated.

Now, if the guy walked out of his truck and found it on the first site he looked at, it was probably staged, but still not beyond the realm of plausibility. Hard to produce a show in 90 days. People are missing the big picture by focussing on little criticisms to justify their own lack of ability.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

sags said:


> LTR's tale of heading to the beach in his red convertible with his gorgeous girlfriend put me in mind of a Chuck Berry song




wasn't it LTA though, not LTR

keep in mind that at the time LongTimeAgo was swanning around his mediterranean island w his bimbo gf in his red convertible MG, he'd already gotten married & fathered a child by the age of 20. Or so he told us in a recent nearby thread.

sags do the math. The bimbo gf was said to be 19 years younger than LTA. Assuming the age of majority was 18, then LTA's age during the swanning era was at least 37, ie 19 + 18. 

keep in mind that LTA already had an offspring aged 17. Abandoned back in canada. Not a word about parenting, rearing, raising, educating or nurturing the offspring.

lots, though, about being adopted into the quasi mafia don culture that dominated the island


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Eder said:


> The point is he magically found the tires just when he needed them. They were even laying on the ground as they would be too large for him to wrestle out of a bin. Bit too convenient haha ...


Sounds more like you are concerned about staging by the show.

IAC, my point where questioning that stance that salvaging tires and selling them was impossible. 


Cheers


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Thanks for the correction and update Humble.

It is an interesting tale of mystery that slowly unravels on the dusty pages of CMF.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Wow, humble has now lowered herself to insulting people off the board now. Had a guy said such things about a woman he’d probably be facing a lawsuit. 

Just when you thought people couldn’t sink any lower, they come out and surprise you.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

nothing insulting there. it was LTA himself who said he'd married & fathered a chlld by the age of 20. One of those interminable warbles about how successful he was at obtaining mortgages.

the child then disappeared from view while LTA perambulated the globe for decades, living adventure after adventure including long drawn out saga w a red MG convertible & a mediterranean island bar business where profits just walked in the door & threw themselves into the till every night :biggrin:

JAG u do know that folks on here are able to see through you, right


.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Guess you think “Bimbo” is a complement? Insults must be so common for you that you don’t even realize when you do it.

Those with tunnel vision see what they want to see, I can’t change that, nor do I care about their narrow minded views on life.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

19 year olds running around w 37 ++ year old sugar daddies who in real life have abandoned their minor children far away in north america are usually known as - sorry no other word for it - bimbos


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> Umm, I didn’t see the episode, but this sounds like something Sags would hope for. Was the guy just sitting around in his truck when “suddenly” two big tires just appeared in front of him?
> 
> .


Nope...it was the timing that seemed scripted...I like the show but some here actually believe this isn't scripted like every other reality show ever made.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> 19 year olds running around w 37 ++ year old sugar daddies who in real life have abandoned their minor children far away in north america are usually known as - sorry no other word for it - bimbos


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

JAG and LTA will believe just about anything. They are the prairie chickens roosting on the highway of life.............splat !


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Eder said:


> Nope...it was the timing that seemed scripted...I like the show but some here actually believe this isn't scripted like every other reality show ever made.


never said the show wasn’t scripted, i did say people are missing the big picture that this is plausible, not impossible.

It’s a lot more realistic than the government giving every citizen a living wage every month from a tax base that can’t support it.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

humble_pie said:


> 19 year olds running around w 37 ++ year old sugar daddies who in real life have abandoned their minor children far away in north america are usually known as - sorry no other word for it - bimbos


Interesting that often the “sexiest man of the year” people like Sean Connery, Patrick Stewart, aren’t all that young, yet voted on by all ages. 

But then again, you’ve proven you can justify any amount of rudeness in your own small bigoted mind...

Then again, maybe LTA’s story touched a nerve. Perhaps, if your conspiracy theory is correct, his wife wasn’t the only one abandoned (or driven away by rudeness). Don’t see many mentions about a husband or kids, just glowing admiration for comrade sags from some posters. Funny, most people in marriages mention spouses and kids often in conversation...

It would explain a lot of the bitterness...especially if he was successful, that would also explain the attraction to the opposite end of the spectrum, like our good comrade.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

If you watch one of these reality shows a second time the phony stuff really pops out at you. This can be more amusing than watching them for the first time.

I haven't seen any of these Undercover Billionaire shows but they sound like they are fun to watch.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Eclectic12 said:


> Sounds more like you are concerned about staging by the show.
> 
> IAC, my point where questioning that stance that salvaging tires and selling them was impossible.
> 
> ...


I am more impress that the show is advocating trespassing onto commercial property and selling equipment that isn't theirs.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

One man's theft is another man's get rich quick.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Yeah, they certainly wouldn’t want to show that life with $100 in your pocket is any different than at other stages of financial success. I’m sure people would have thought it more realistic had he just opened a restaurant with $100 instead of building up his wealth. Not like people at the low end of society do whatever they need to to survive. 

I’m sure union employees never steal office supplies either, called in a fake sick day, etc. everyone else is so honest.

Whatever you do, just make sure to avoid the question, what would you do in that situation.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> wasn't it LTA though, not LTR
> 
> keep in mind that at the time LongTimeAgo was swanning around his mediterranean island w his bimbo gf in his red convertible MG, he'd already gotten married & fathered a child by the age of 20. Or so he told us in a recent nearby thread.
> 
> ...


What a load of garbage. You make assumptions and just outright make stuff up to suit your purposes.

I have written in this forum several times that I retired in my early 40s. I have also written in this thread that the bar episode was after I had retired. You don't need to do the math to figure out an age, you've already been given the time scale involved.

I don't know if it was some BIMBO you know who suggested you add the comment about my girlfriend at the time, but she was a university educated English teacher, not someone that was likely to be looked on as a bimbo. Insulting someone you don't know is contemptible. I was in my mid-40s and she was in her mid-20s. Such relationships do exist you know without having to be anything you can sneer at. 

I did indeed marry and have 2 children while I was still quite young. Throughout their childhood and up until they left school, I supported them financially and parented them as much as any divorced parent is likely to be able to do. Both were over 21 when I went 'swanning around' 

As for the 'quasi mafia' comment, obviously, you are lacking in your knowledge of cultures where 'face' is a major factor in life. Perhaps you need to get out more and educate yourself as to the rest of the world. All you are demonstrating is the typical Western world attitude of 'my way is the only right way'. Pathetic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)

Your comments would have resulted in you losing a great deal of face given how easily they are shown to be nonsense. But that would have required that you had some 'face' to begin with.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Whatever you do, just make sure to avoid the question, what would you do in that situation.


Assuming no education or skills, I would get any job I could find and then begin the quest to find a job in a unionized setting that paid more.

I guess you would choose to spend the time you could be earning a living by scrounging through the trash looking for treasure.

Maybe you could focus on "buying lockers" and finding Picasso paintings, or traversing rural areas looking for mint condition Corvettes sitting in barns.

I have heard tales of such finds and somebody eventually wins Superball lotteries for a hundred million dollars, so it can't be denied that it is possible.

I would consider such things an amusing "hobby" but no way to earn a living. Still........it's worth the occasional lottery ticket or bet.

I will be trying to win my fortune tonight at the slot casino. There are many more losers than winners, but people do win and why can't it be me ?


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Many on this board raise their heads from time to time to spew lies about others , the reasons are obscure. HP has always been the best at unsubstantiated hack jobs, ignore list is your friend, you should use it.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> Assuming no education or skills, I would get any job I could find and then begin the quest to find a job in a unionized setting that paid more.
> 
> I guess you would choose to spend the time you could be earning a living by scrounging through the trash looking for treasure.
> 
> ...


So I see that you have not replied to the post in which I wrote,

_"I am now saying to you sags that I have owned successful businesses where 'the hours were short, the work was easy and money just poured in.' I'm described such a business to you already, a bar in a tourist destination.

So what is your response to that sags? You have a few choices. You can say, 'OK, I stand corrected, it can happen.' Or you can say, 'You are lying'. Or you can ignore it and pretend I never wrote it. Which do you choose sags?"_

You have chosen to pretend I never wrote it. I wonder why that is the case sags? Could it be that you realize you have no response that would not make you look as ridiculous as humble_pie has now made himself look?

Someone can start a successful business in 90 days with little capital and no knowledge of the business they start. I've given you a real life example. Someone can start a relationship with someone younger than themselves who is intelligent, educated and has a decent profession. I've given humble_pie an example of that. Yet both of you just don't want to accept the facts as presented to you. 

I really think you guys could benefit from some professional help with your problems. To only be able to see the world from your own very limited perspective and not be able to acknowledge that other people may be able to do things differently is not a good thing.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Baloney.......some people don't like it that Humble tells it like it is.

I doubt there is anyone on CMF who can offer better financial advice and advice about life in general than Humble.

Intelligence, honesty, experience and patience shine through every post.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eder said:


> Many on this board raise their heads from time to time to spew lies about others , the reasons are obscure. HP has always been the best at unsubstantiated hack jobs, ignore list is your friend, you should use it.


I would rather easily 'out him' to all Eder. His comments re parenting, age, bimbo, etc. were child's play to refute obviously. Hoisted on his own petard as they say.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Sorry LTA but your question isn't a valid one to ask.

You make the presumption in your question that owing a bar is no work and the money is easy. 

I know too many bar/restaurant owners to know that isn't a remotely true possibility. 

Some of the bars failed and some were successful, but they all involved a lot of work by the owners and often their family members.

And though they may be "successful" for decades, none of them would be considered "wealthy" by any reasonable context.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Wonder how Sags would find a job in Erie which has very high unemployment. he’s certainly not what I’d consider “prime material”, and I speak from the impression he gives off from my experience as a business owner. Next how he’d survive until the first paycheque comes in at least two weeks away if he started working on the first day he got there, most jobs don’t hire you the day of the interview.

Then again, who’d hire a guy with no fixed address, especially when you have your pick of employees. High unemployment means lots to choose from.

THe states don’t have very good social programs either to bail you out.

Great plan there sags, I see the basis of all your success.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> Sorry LTA but your question isn't a valid one to ask.
> 
> You make the presumption in your question that owing a bar is no work and the money is easy.
> 
> ...


What????? Are you kidding sags?????? On drugs or something????????????

I told you I opened a bar. I told you I worked a few hours a night, the work was easy and the money poured in. What other people you know did or did not experience is IRRELEVANT to what I have TOLD you about the bar I opened.

Either you have to admit it can be possible for SOME people, even if not any that you happen to know personally, or you have to call me a liar or you have to ignore what I am saying because you just don't want to hear it and have to relevant response you can make to refute it.

My question is entirely valid, it is your response that is IRRELEVANT.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

No, no, no LTA,

Since some people fail at business, everyone will fail, that’s the way the world works don’t you know. People like sags know they are doomed to fail and can’t even conceive of starting one. There’s no way a non-union employee can get wages, benefits, or job security through merit (as opposed to seniority for incompetence). Non-union workers all work for free don’t you know. There’s certainly no way for them to get a raise or advance in the world.

Since Sags is mediocre at best in his success, no one else could possibly do better. 

What kind of world do you live in LTA, it’s certainly not the UNION workers are the only successful people in the world.

All the successful people in the world are just exaggerating...not sure how the rich got rich, since they weren’t union members, but they should be taxed and the money given to unions for redistribution as is only right and fair. 

The very idea that one can make money without hard work, let alone any work whatsoever is completely impossible, unimaginable, and preposterous. Can’t be done, especially by the small minded. Imagine the idea of other people dong all the work, why should they allow it? 

Heck, just because a 19 year old friend of my son sold his self made business to a larger company and gets a monthly royalty for doing so is obviously totally made up. No one could do that, especially someone so young. He’s from a single family home and his mother isn’t even a union employee.

I’d second Eder’s suggestion. The quality of the board goes way up when people like Sags are placed on the ignore list. I didn’t want to do it originally, but several people suggested it to me and I now admit, I should have done it earlier.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Sags, I have to seriously wonder if you really don't have a clue about other places in the world. When you write that bar owners you know, all work hard, I don't question that is true. But to then go on to ASSUME that all bar owners must work that hard just isn't logical. Yet that is what you seem to be doing.

On the island I am talking about, there are over half a million tourists who arrive during the tourist season. Most of them will probably visit a bar during their stay. While some are return visitors, most of them will arrive with no pre-conceived idea of what bars they will visit. These tourists are distributed around the island but most of them will be found in a dozen or so limited areas. In those areas of concentration, you will also find even more limited areas where bars are concentrated. You will find a whole street full of bars and another street full of restaurants and hotels side by side along the beachfront. Can you picture that?

Now if you open a bar on the island I am talking about, that is on a street named Orfanidou Street but that is known as 'BAR STREET' with over 40 bars on that one street, it is almost impossible for a bar to fail to make money. The 'HARD' part sags is to have access to a building and some start up money to furnish it etc. That's it as far as 'hard' goes. Open the door and in they come. 
https://www.tripadvisor.ca/ShowUser...odes_Town_Rhodes_Dodecanese_South_Aegean.html

Have you ever been somewhere on a street like this sags?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iUSxpuF19A

Imagine opening a bar on that street sags, do you see any shortage of customers? The hard part as I said is getting access to a building on that street. IF you can get access and then open a bar, I don't know how you could NOT do business. Every single night THOUSANDS of people are on that street and in the bars. The video link is not filmed on some 'busy' night that occurs a few times a season, it is like that EVERY night for MOST of the season with only the first couple of weeks and last couple of weeks being a bit slower.

On opening our bar, V and I worked it alone. Within 2 weeks we HAD to hire 2 staff to keep up. Within a month we had 6 staff and we only worked the till ourselves. That was in our first season. It took 1 person just to clear empty glasses and bottles from the tables all night. One washing glasses full time all night. Two waiting on tables and 2 bartending. That is how busy it is in bars on that street, EVERY night sags. 

So all I had to do to be successful was have the money to renovate and furnish an old building that V's family owned AND find V to start with. That wasn't luck sags, I decided as I have said to open a bar, then I just had to look and ask myself, 'where should i open a bar', easy to answer, on Bar Street. Then I had to ask myself how to get access to a property on bar street, not so easy to answer obviously but I found the answer, V had access but did not have the money to get started. 1+1=2 sags. The hard part was over before we even started. 

Now really sags, look at that YouTube video again and tell me if you think it would be 'hard work' for a bar to do business there.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I’d be willing to lay money on the Fact that Sags couldn’t do it. Wouldn’t even try and, if he did, would fail at it. Not everyone can succeed even when success is all but assured.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> I’d be willing to lay money on the Fact that Sags couldn’t do it. Wouldn’t even try and, if he did, would fail at it. Not everyone can succeed even when success is all but assured.


sags can only make money by working for someone who took the risk and put in the hard work to be successful. It's simple jealousy...some people just can't accept that other people are better than them, so they have to blame their success on luck or cheating. Their arrogant mind can't accept the fact that someone is actually better than them and was successful where they would have failed.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The opportunity to open a bar in an area in which many bars were guaranteed success and become money generation machines, and nobody on the island......not a single soul, including all the other bar owners, their relatives or friends, or their employees ever thought of the idea to open another bar. 

How amazing.......that a couple of guys from far away can drift in to town and seize the golden opportunity laid bare before them.

Who needs to read books about Warren Buffet building an empire or Jeff Bezo's decades of passionate work to build the Amazon company ?

They are pikers........mere amateurs compared to the likes of JAG and LTA.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Just a Guy said:


> I’d be willing to lay money on the Fact that Sags couldn’t do it. Wouldn’t even try and, if he did, would fail at it. Not everyone can succeed even when success is all but assured.


It's what I call the creativity of the loser. I have done some business and investments, whenever I try to talk to my loser friends about it they have a million excuses for why they couldn't do the same. Some of them are so creative, so unexpected that they take my breath away. I could not think up such creative ways to not make money in 8 years. Yet they can do it in a split second without even trying. They can come up with 1000 reasons something won't work before they can come up with a single way to make it work. Eventually you learn to only talk to them about the hockey game or whatever was on TV last night.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> Yeah, they certainly wouldn’t want to show that life with $100 in your pocket is any different than at other stages of financial success. I’m sure people would have thought it more realistic had he just opened a restaurant with $100 instead of building up his wealth. Not like people at the low end of society do whatever they need to to survive.
> 
> I’m sure union employees never steal office supplies either, called in a fake sick day, etc. everyone else is so honest.
> 
> Whatever you do, just make sure to avoid the question, what would you do in that situation.


Personally, I would have thought it would be more realistic if they showed him working a little longer at odd jobs to build up enough of a seed fund rather than just be given $1500 so that they could still promote the show as a billionaire starting from $100 and nothing else.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

In a city with high unemployment, you have no fixed address, you have $100 to survive on until a paycheque comes in...yeah, highly realistic to get those odd jobs. Wonder why the homeless don’t follow that strategy.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

The "homeless" make $40-50 every day to support their drug habits.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Eder said:


> Many on this board raise their heads from time to time to spew lies about others , the reasons are obscure...


Yeah, you are right. Like, JAG says he's got two additional fake accounts on CMF but refuses to explain what for. And lo and behold every time JAG goes into his "melting mode" somebody would jump up and say, he is right. Recently an Edan or something.

On the other hand, maybe JAG is one of these fake accounts and this Edan is a puppetmaster? Because it stretches credulity that a highly successful, financially independent businessman would spend 24/7 in front of a screen bashing sags for being pro-union. A guy like this should be somewhere on a lake entertaining ladies (or gentlemen, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.)

On the other hand, I've seen stranger things on the internet. The most bizarre was when a guy like JAG, from Vancouver, got in a fight with a lady from Halifax. He then privately asked a guy from Sweden, who happen to be on business in Taiwan, to call the Halifax lady and anonymously give her hell. But this was a one-time deal, not stretched into infinity.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> In a city with high unemployment, you have no fixed address, you have $100 to survive on until a paycheque comes in...yeah, highly realistic to get those odd jobs. Wonder why the homeless don’t follow that strategy.


Pretty easy to get a "job" actually, since he did own a truck.

Deliver pizza and he will have cash from the first night onward. Our pizza store owner says his drivers earn $100 or more a night.

A lot better than rooting around into garbage pails looking for something to sell.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It does raise another question on the authenticity of the show though.

Since the billionaire guy started out with an old truck, who was paying for his insurance ?

Just another pesky little detail our "dare to be rich" posters brush to the side.

Too many of those omissions though and .......you done make none money JAG.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Parkuser,

I must have more than two fake account, as more than two agree with me. It’s the only rational explanation. No one could outperform you and Sags...you’re a financial monument.

As for being on a boat, the internet is a wonderful tool...doesn’t even use wires anymore. Can even get it at 40000 feet on an airplane. Oh wait, people can’t fly...you and sags run around all day flapping your arms and can prove it.

As to why, fortunately You and Sags aren’t the norm on this board. There are some actual successful people on this forum with whom I converse. I still can learn from them and vice versa.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> Parkuser,
> 
> 
> ...As for being on a boat, the internet is a wonderful tool...doesn’t even use wires anymore. Can even get it at 40000 feet on an airplane. Oh wait, people can’t fly...you and sags run around all day flapping your arms and can prove it.


JAG,
when I said "being on a boat entertaining ladies/gentlemen" they the keyword was _entertaining_. Funny, you didn't get it.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Oh, relaying the stuff you and Sags post are quite entertaining to people. Some people have never laughed so much. Of course, I blocked Sags, but the stuff people quote from him is still enough.

Funny, you don’t realize it.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> Oh, relaying the stuff you and Sags post are quite entertaining to people. Some people have never laughed so much. Of course, I blocked Sags, but the stuff people quote from him is still enough.
> 
> Funny, you don’t realize it.


Sure, but what about these two fake accounts? Why do you need it? What for?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Glad you understand sarcasm. i guess it just add to the laughs as you realize I was being facetious. i figured you wouldn’t understand an independent person agreeing with me, so i told you they must be fake accounts of mine.

i only have my own account. Didn’t think anyone would actually believe it, but you should never underestimate people, especially when it comes to intelligence.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> The opportunity to open a bar in an area in which many bars were guaranteed success and become money generation machines, and nobody on the island......not a single soul, including all the other bar owners, their relatives or friends, or their employees ever thought of the idea to open another bar.
> 
> How amazing.......that a couple of guys from far away can drift in to town and seize the golden opportunity laid bare before them.
> 
> ...


Well I guess it really is a case of 'you can lead a horse to water.............' sags.

The street is as you say one of pretty much guaranteed success and plenty of people have thought of the idea of opening a bar on that street and making money. But like I told you, the hard part is to get access to a building, there are simply none available and haven't been for many years. 

So let's say someone else, a 'single soul' on the island had the idea to open a bar. In fact let's say V and his family had the idea to open one since they actually had a building to open one in. The problem V and his family had is they did not have the money to set it up, I DID. V could have opened that bar with anyone, anyone that is he was willing to open a bar with and who was willing to put up hard cash as his half of the deal. But V never met anyone who had the cash and was willing to invest in a bar, or it would be more accurate to say he met plenty who were willing but with whom he was not willing to become a partner, not until I came along. 

The family had plenty of offers to rent the building from them, but if you knew anything about the culture, you would know that giving someone else a way to make money instead of keeping it in the family is not how they do things. V also had offers of partnership but none from anyone he trusted enough to go that route with. I knew V for about 6 months before I suggested we open the bar and during those 6 months we had become quite good friends. I didn't start out to get him to go into partnership, I just liked him as a person and we just 'clicked' as they say. He knew I wasn't even all that interested in opening a bar, I just wanted to be left alone to enjoy retirement but everyone kept bugging me as I said, to 'do something'. So he TRUSTED me as someone he would be willing to partner with. That's why it was ME who got that opportunity and not someone else.

Hundreds, thousands of people could have had the idea sags but the ONE person who came along who was able and willing to do so was ME. If it hadn't been me sags it could have been you but it wasn't you was it sags, it was just little old ME. There's nothing amazing about it sags unless you consider someone seeing an opportunity and being willing to put some money on the table and for someone else to be willing to partner with him to do it, amazing. 

It happened sags, get your head around it. A guy with a few bucks went to an island, didn't want to work but was being pestered by acquaintances to 'do something' and saw a way to look like he was 'doing something' without having to do much of anything at all. He spent a few hours a night in a bar each night for just 6 months each year and everyone stopped bothering him because now he was 'in business' and an upstanding normal person again. With a job, a girlfriend, responsibilities, people who relied on him for their living, etc. etc. etc.

The bar to me was a hobby sags, I didn't need to work to eat, I just needed to get people off my back. That the bar could earn me a decent income was just gravy. The first year was fun, the second year OK and the third year it began to get boring, so at the end of that year I sold out my half to my partner V and obviously, 30 years later it is still earning V a good living.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> Glad you understand sarcasm. i guess it just add to the laughs as you realize I was being facetious. i figured you wouldn’t understand an independent person agreeing with me, so i told you they must be fake accounts of mine.
> 
> i only have my own account. Didn’t think anyone would actually believe it, but you should never underestimate people, especially when it comes to intelligence.


Well, maybe, OK. Because you do not strike me as a funny guy, the way you act when seeing the word "sags," looks to me like somebody with a Tourette syndrome. (I am not a medical doctor, so this is not a definite diagnosis.)


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Trust me, no one would confuse you for a doctor. Oh, and I wasn’t trying to be funny (look up sarcastic since you don’t know what it means), you made it funny though.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Maybe I should tell you sags about another business I started on that same island, or should I say that I never even really STARTED.

So, I'm are talking about back in the mid-90s when some people had home computers (desk top), internet cafes had just started to become a 'thing', popping up here and there, WIFI hot spots didn't really exist yet and the internet wasn't there to any real degree yet. Got the picture sags? Computer literacy and the ability to do things with it by the average person was still in a pretty early stage.

So one day, one winter, I got an invite to a Birthday party from an acquaintance who owned a small hotel. She was Australian. As you can perhaps imagine, finding an English language birthday card on a small Greek island is not an easy thing to do. So I had this idea. I had a Desktop Publishing program on my desktop computer and by using it and what is called 'clip art', I could MAKE a birthday card for her. Just buy some heavier card weight printer paper, 'clip and paste' some pictures of the Sydney Opera House, a kangaroo, etc., use some nice fonts in colour for the words and voila, a birthday card suitable for an Australian far from home.

She really liked her card and during the course of the evening, she asked me if I could design and make menus for her poolside bar. Well, I could but I didn't actually want to do it. So I said something like, 'yeah but it would be expensive.' Then I threw a number at her that I figured would discourage her. In other words a 'high price'. She didn't even blink an eye and asked me to get together with her at a later date to work on the 'project'.

Now one thing you need to know is that on the island as I later found out, there was ONE printing company. If you didn't want to do business with them for something you wanted printed, you had to go 'off island' to somewhere like Athens on the mainland to have your printing done. Given that more or less monopoly the island printer had, they weren't cheap. That's why she didn't blink an eye when I suggested what I thought was an outrageous price.

Another thing you need to know is that on an island full of tourist businesses, there are a lot of menus that get printed each year. A restaurant may use the same menu for several years but you can't keep the same menu forever obviously. The prices change, what you have on the menu changes, etc. You can only 'whiteout' an old price and pen in a new one so many times before your menus start to look like crap. So you need to buy new menus every couple of years at least.

The final thing you need to know about this is that when people work in a business that only runs 6 months per year and then they take 6 months off, they do not rush out to buy new menus the day after they close up at the end of the season. They wait till not long before they are going to open up again at the start of the new season, to start even thinking about anything to do with business. As it then turns out, there is about a 6 week 'window' when people suddenly think about menus and start to do something about it.

So back to my Australian acquaintance with the hotel. I designed a menu for her, printed out a 'proof' copy for her approval and she ordered 20. Oh well that wasn't too bad after all I thought as I pocketed the CASH. A week later I get a phone call from a restaurant owner who was a friend of hers and I knew somewhat. She had shown him her new menus that were ready for the start of the new season and he wanted to know if I could do new menus for him. Umm, yeah, I guess so, did he know what kind of money we were talking? Yes, she had told him and he was fine with something around that price. OK, a second menu design, approval and printing. He needed 30 for his restaurant. I ended up making half a dozen different menus for people that first year. all CASH on delivery. After all, I was not going into business and getting a business license, sales tax number, etc. etc. Strictly cash, pocket money.

Towards the end of the second winter I had more calls for menus that I could handle. The limitation was the printer. A printer can only print so many pages per hour and while I might be able to design and layout a menu in less than a day, I could not print more copies of menus than my printer could handle in the 6 weeks that people were in the market for menus. Besides, if I actually started doing more menus than that, it is quite likely that the printing company on the island would start to see me as cutting into 'their business' and that would most likely lead to a visit from some local authorities asking me where my business license was etc. I would have to actually START a business. There I was turning away business for a business that didn't exist! LOL

In the third winter I had as many calls again but again limited how many I would agree to doing for the same reasons. And besides, I was getting bored with the whole menu business. People who were given a menu to 'approve' and then asking for a change to be made after they had approved it and I had started printing them for example. People can be such a pain in the butt sometimes. It was only coincidental that that turned out to be the last winter I spent on the island. I think if I had stayed longer I would have refused to do any more the next winter. 

So that was a business sags that I never actually officially started but made quite a nice little income from. How much income? Well over the course of that 6 week window I earned around $5k a week sags. Work wise, I don't know how you calculate brainwork used to design, but I do know that I didn't spend more than a few hours per menu on design and then perhaps another hour or two writing out all the menu items and prices. So 'work hours' were perhaps 6 per menu. Then the only work left was to fill the paper tray and hit the 'PRINT' button. 

I'd hit print just before going out, re-fill the paper tray when I got back and hit print again. Rinse and repeat until all the menus were printed. Pretty easy really. So $30k income earned in 6 weeks, all in cash and I never broke a sweat sags. 

Yet another no hard work, easy money business that I'm sure you will tell me how it just couldn't have happened sags.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> No, no, no LTA,
> 
> Since some people fail at business, everyone will fail, that’s the way the world works don’t you know. People like sags know they are doomed to fail and can’t even conceive of starting one. There’s no way a non-union employee can get wages, benefits, or job security through merit (as opposed to seniority for incompetence). Non-union workers all work for free don’t you know. There’s certainly no way for them to get a raise or advance in the world.
> 
> ...


You're strawmanning. No one is claiming that starting successful businesses is impossible, as there is abundant evidence that this isn't so. Just as it should be relatively uncontroversial that businesses fail despite hard work and smarts. Business is risky. It isn't the case that but for a bit of willingness to work, any poor person can quickly start a successful business with no prior knowledge or capital. The reason I object to this claim is that it suggests that the poor are solely to blame for their situation, as the slightest bit of effort could make them an overnight success.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

sags said:


> JAG is a teaching machine.
> 
> I have learned some solid business principles that I can deploy in the future.
> 
> ...


You forgot the its not what you know, its who you know lesson. (Wife gets crediti card due to who she knows.)


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I have had computers since my first Tandy computer in the mid 1980s.

I recall the days of floppy disks and was thrilled to move up to a computer that had memory and then to a more powerful computer that could run programs like the clip art program you mentioned. I still have that old program around somewhere, along with the complete National Geographics disks and others. In fact, I still have Atari games around here somewhere.

The problem I always found was that printers didn't keep up with the computers. They were almost an afterthought for a long time.

Printing on the dot matrix printers wouldn't produce a very nice product, and it was quite awhile before laser printers were capable of mass printing.

I suppose you could do it, but it would probably be cheaper to pay a professional printer than spend all the money on ink cartridges, paper and replacing worn out printers. I would think if you are going to be a professional printer, you probably need to buy professional printing equipment......but that is just me.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

andrewf said:


> You're strawmanning. No one is claiming that starting successful businesses is impossible, as there is abundant evidence that this isn't so. Just as it should be relatively uncontroversial that businesses fail despite hard work and smarts. Business is risky. It isn't the case that but for a bit of willingness to work, any poor person can quickly start a successful business with no prior knowledge or capital. The reason I object to this claim is that it suggests that the poor are solely to blame for their situation, as the slightest bit of effort could make them an overnight success.


Sarcasm, in quoting from “Life According to Sags”, isn’t strawmanning. (That’s more sarcasm by the way)

Also, the show is about an experienced businessman making money, not some average poor person, or even a middle class job holder.

If it were about Sags, or Parkland, sure it would never happen, that’s pretty evident, I doubt anyone would disagree.

The only thing Sags ever learned, as per Pluto’s quote, was to hold out his hand and beg for more from others.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

But what is the point of the show? Hey a guy who has started successful businesses can start businesses? Yawn. Sounds about as exciting as watching an NBA player sink free-throws during practice.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> Trust me, no one would confuse you for a doctor. Oh, and I wasn’t trying to be funny (look up sarcastic since you don’t know what it means), you made it funny though.


Looks can be deceiving. I gonna look up sarcastic just after you gonna look up facetious.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

andrewf said:


> But what is the point of the show? Hey a guy who has started successful businesses can start businesses? Yawn. Sounds about as exciting as watching an NBA player sink free-throws during practice.


More point to the show than this constant bickering. 

I think the point to the show is that the person wants to show he wasn't just 'lucky' and that it was replicas able. I know a few very successful people that made $xx,xxx,xxx and wanted to prove that it wasn't one time luck. Also, I think it could be inspiration, not that everyone can do it easily. More that you don't have to start with much and could make it. I am still trying to find a way to stream the show. Based on what I have read, it isn't supposed to be a roadmap to 'here's how to make a million dollars if you follow my step by step process' rather, a it can be done. However, people need to find there way. Yes, the person has knowledge, but its knowledge that he gained some how and people can gain that knowledge many ways.

I think those on the thread that are nit picking every are missing the big picture that it can be done, probably not the same way. The other opposing arguers are so focused on how easy it for them, that they are missing the idea that not everyone is the same, and there is some luck involved.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

On a side note, coming from a family that immigrated here with NOTHING, the hustle and entrepreneur spirit was in our family. I haven't made my millions (yet), but everyone on my family has done decently. 

I found the ideas here very interesting, as I have been able to made small of money from nothing. However, I have not been able to cross that threshold of quitting my job to do the other businesses. I remember my father had a really interesting view, he said, if you are going to go in business do it when you have nothing or very little. When you have a good career with a good salary and a family, the opportunity cost is too high to leave. When you have to find a way to make it work, that's when it will happen. Pretty wise for dude with no education, couldn't speak English, no 'real skills, and was discriminated against when he first arrived. 

I have never had the opportunity to be laid off or terminated (not that I really want to), but I always swore when it happens I would take some time to go out on my own. That's what my spouse has done in the past, and it's worked some of the time, but he was always head hunted before he made a real go of it.

Some interesting ventures that I have done, made some money with very low entry cost, but obviously nothing huge -

- Made home made treats to sell - didn't enjoy it enough and didn't like 'having' to do it
- Web hosting (still do), but the market has changed in technology
- Tutoring - now I do it for volunteering
- Resume editing - found it too frustrating for some stupid people
- Kid related activities - still do that, but do more volunteering
- Reselling recycled electronics, we made a ton of money with nothing other than the internet to start. We partner with a local e-recycler and was reselling. The person started playing unfairly and took the system I developed, and then started giving us the 'crap' stuff. So I said forget it.
- Finding the hottest toy of the season and reselling. 
- Reselling items found at wholesale: we sold so many different things from broken hard drives, remote control cars, beauty supplies, toys, TVs, computers, you name it. Most of it was bought in bulk or on pennies on the dollar because they would give us a mix, we would repair or repackage and then resell. 


It's actually quite crazy what people will buy even though I got it almost for free. One time, I needed a new hard drive for my old laptop, but to get a brand new one it was $150 . My computer was worth that much (maybe) so my spouse found a lot of 500 old laptop hard drives for $100 plus shipping. He found one that worked on mine, replaced it, then we both proceeded to test and repair the drives some selling as much as $350. We ended finally getting rid of them all and made over $5 after all the listing fees, etc. 

I won't lie none of it was 'easy' and require some work, but its there. I do believe for myself, that if there was ever time where I found I wasn't working by choice, I would find a way to be successful without an employer.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^Thanks for sharing, Plugging. I think that is a very sensible attitude to take.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Now if ANYONE can tell me how to stream this without cable, or satellite. I really do want to watch this.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think if you don't want to subscribe your option is piracy. Maybe if you have a VPN it is streaming in other countries, but Discovery Canada is not streaming it.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

andrewf said:


> But what is the point of the show? Hey a guy who has started successful businesses can start businesses? Yawn. Sounds about as exciting as watching an NBA player sink free-throws during practice.


This is a good analogy. Why does anyone bother to watch pro sports when they have seen all the players before, and know before they begin that there are 2 teams and one is going to win? Yet some people get a kick out of it. I find sports boring but would watch someone try to build something or do something useful. Some of my favorite Youtube videos are people cooking, building, repairing things.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

If it were a competition between 2 billionaires, maybe that could be fun. But this isn't a competition like a game--it is more like watching a practice.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Why watch things which may inspire you to think. Some people obviously watch it to punch holes in it and talk about how it’s totally fake and impossible. Others watch it and do thought experiments “how would I handle it”. Then there are those in between who wonder if it is indeed possible and could they possibly do it, maybe not in three months but rather in their lifetime.

Of course, it’s pretty obvious you don’t even need to watch it to be in any of these camps.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

....speakin' of reality shows...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newf...elevision-show-lloyd-colbourne-book-1.5264171


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> Why watch things which may inspire you to think.
> Some people obviously watch it to punch holes in it and talk about how it’s totally fake and impossible.
> Others watch it and do thought experiments “how would I handle it”.
> Then there are those in between who wonder if it is indeed possible and could they possibly do it, maybe not in three months but rather in their lifetime.
> ...


 ... so which camp are you in? 

I have to say I don't belong to any of these camps and I don't watch it. And most likely never will unless I'm bored out of my mind or there is no other entertainment left in this world.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> More point to the show than this constant bickering.
> 
> I think the point to the show is that the person wants to show he wasn't just 'lucky' and that it was replicas able. I know a few very successful people that made $xx,xxx,xxx and wanted to prove that it wasn't one time luck. Also, I think it could be inspiration, not that everyone can do it easily. More that you don't have to start with much and could make it. I am still trying to find a way to stream the show. Based on what I have read, it isn't supposed to be a roadmap to 'here's how to make a million dollars if you follow my step by step process' rather, a it can be done. However, people need to find there way. Yes, the person has knowledge, but its knowledge that he gained some how and people can gain that knowledge many ways.
> 
> I think those on the thread that are nit picking every are missing the big picture that it can be done, probably not the same way. The other opposing arguers are so focused on how easy it for them, that they are missing the idea that not everyone is the same, and there is some luck involved.


I agree with most of that but would disagree with 'some luck involved'. To me that is the whole point of the show to prove that it is NOT luck. If a basketball player does free-throws, he can do so multiple times in minutes and show that it is not luck that is in operation, it is skill. Watching an NBA player do that repeatedly is as andrewf says, is not very exiting because you KNOW he is likely to sink more than he misses and there really isn't much point to proving he has the skill to do it.

But in the case of this show, we are watching someone doing something that MOST people would automatically say, 'it can't be done'. That is not the same as the NBA player and free-throws at all. Yes as a guy who has been successful in the past it is not unreasonble for andrewf to say, there's nothing 'exciting' in seeing he can do so again. That would be true IF people accepted that as a fact but obviously from many of the comments here a lot of people are in the camp of saying, 'it can't be done'. They are NOT accepting that he can do what he has done before. They aren't just saying, 'oh yeah but it was just luck', they aren't even accepting that it can be done with luck, they are saying it CAN"T be done and it must be fake. 

I disagree with your characterization of the 'opposing arguers' of which I am obviously one, as being focused on how easy it is for some. I am focused solely on 'it can be done' and that those who believe it cannot be done, should be learning a lesson here. It can be done by some and the only way to know if it can be done by you is if you try, not just sit back and say, 'it can't be done, so there is no point in trying'.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I frequent the Goodwill and Salvation Army stores because I love the "old decor" that has been used by families. I think they are unique and "tell a story."

I also buy my clothes there when possible. I just can't spend $50 on a pair of pants.....or even $25 at Giant Tiger....when I can buy a perfectly good pair for $5.

Anyways, I always thought the Goodwill has a good business plan. People actually drop off their stuff free for you to sell at a profit.

The biggest drawback is the retail space, but they must be doing pretty well. We have two brand new enormous Goodwill stores in our medium sized city.

One of them even has a restaurant and lounge built in. In all fairness, I think they use it to teach people skills to work in the service industry.

P.S. I doubt there would ever be a shortage of "merchandise" Kids don't want all our "beloved" old stuff anymore.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> On a side note, coming from a family that immigrated here with NOTHING, the hustle and entrepreneur spirit was in our family. I haven't made my millions (yet), but everyone on my family has done decently.
> 
> I found the ideas here very interesting, as I have been able to made small of money from nothing. However, I have not been able to cross that threshold of quitting my job to do the other businesses. I remember my father had a really interesting view, he said, if you are going to go in business do it when you have nothing or very little. When you have a good career with a good salary and a family, the opportunity cost is too high to leave. When you have to find a way to make it work, that's when it will happen. Pretty wise for dude with no education, couldn't speak English, no 'real skills, and was discriminated against when he first arrived.


You bring up a very valid point Plugging Along. People perceive risk vs. reward and when they perceive a great risk with an unknown reward, it is very difficult for them to 'take the plunge'. Most people will choose what they see as a 'sure thing' (their reasonably well paid existing job) over what they see as taking a huge risk, every time.

The key point is all about how people perceive risk. As your Father suggested, if you have nothing, you risk nothing, so why not try something. A study done on entrepreneurs some years ago found that as a group, entrepreneurs do not tend to see ANY risk in what they do. They have some idea to start a business or make a product or whatever and cannot imagine it not being a success. There is NO risk in their view. They don't necessarily have to have better ideas than thousands of other people have had, they just have to ACT on their idea. That is what the other thousands don't do that differs.

I know of no way to teach people to not see risk. Some things we simply cannot know what the outcome will be until we try. So for example, your family emigrated to Canada HOPING for a better life but without KNOWING if it would turn out to be a better life or not. That did that even though they did perceive risk. So what does that tell us? Well to me it tells us that SOME people even if they do perceive risk are capable of taking a 'leap of faith'. Rather than trying to find something to try where you perceive no risk at all as some entrepreneurs are fortunate enough to be able to do. Accept that risk exists and STILL take that 'leap of faith'.

The analogy that I like to use is a trapeze. Anyone who has seen a trapeze artist go from one swinging trapeze onto another has witnessed a leap of faith. The two trapezes do not meet in the middle, there is a gap which requires the trapeze artist to LET GO of the trapeze they are on, with BOTH hands, in order to cross that gap and grab on to the second trapeze. It is a leap of faith and a defiance of the risk involved. Now here's the funny thing. The more times you take that leap, the easier it gets to do it again. Who would have thought.

In my younger days, I used to do some technical climbing. You know, with ropes etc. up a cliff face. Anyone who has done any climbing knows that even though if you are using proper technigues regarding safety, if you fall the rope will save you. But regardless of what you KNOW to be the case, the fear of falling and as a result DYING is still there in your mind. There is no greater consequence anyone can suffer than death obviously. All climbers also know that everyone falls sometimes and that there is always in fact a moment in time when you KNOW you are going to fall, before you do. In that nanosecond of time, the fear of dying is there. If in that nanosecond of time, someone were to say to you, 'make this decision and you will not fall', there is NO decision that you could not make in that nanosecond because the alternative that is right there front and centre in your mind is DEATH. Any decision you might be asked to make is simply not in the same league at all. If someone said 'should I quit my job and start my own business', you would have no problem deciding on an answer. It doesn't mean you would decide to quit but you sure as heck wouldn't be debating your answer.

Whenever I have had decisions to make that I considered to be 'important' decisions, I have learned to ask myself one simple question. 'If I do this thing and it doesn't work out as I hope it will, WILL IT KILL ME. Literally. If it won't then it isn't as important as I might believe it is, I'm just being risk adverse and that is NOT a reason to be unwilling to take a chance on something.

That is my own personal method and obviously is not one everyone could use if they have not had similar experiences with climbing. But I think most people could probably find something that would work for them if they tried to. The problem is most people never even try.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Beaver101 said:


> ... so which camp are you in?
> 
> I have to say I don't belong to any of these camps and I don't watch it. And most likely never will unless I'm bored out of my mind or there is no other entertainment left in this world.


i’ve Only watched one episode and, as I showed in other posting, I went trough the thought experiment. I probably won’t watch the rest of the shows. I found enough things plausible in the episode I watched, I’m sure it has a scripted element to it, but there are good lessons to be learned from it for some people. It’s actually scripted to teach if you know how to learn, not just entertain. Personally, Ive already lived through such a scenario, I’m pretty confident, with my experiences, I could survived and get out of the scenario pretty quickly as well...though I think 90 days is still pushing it, but a year should be achievable. My path would be different, but I’m sure there’d be similarities as well.

I think people like Plugging really understand what the show is about.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It is noticeable that many of the most successful people started when they were young, and before they had financial commitments to families etc.

Many of the tech companies were founded by people barely out of college and possibly still supported by parents.

I would say if a person is going to "go for it", they would have their best shot when they are young and free.

Once laden down with responsibilities it makes it a lot tougher. You can't support a family on hopes and dreams.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

LTA,

I think the not seeing risk comes down to personal confidence. When I make the decision to do something, I don’t usually see a lot of risk in things because i’m in charge. I’m in control. There’s no one I trust more to figure out a solution to problems I’ll encounter. I don’t expect anything to go smoothly, I expect I’ll have to change at some point.

Risk, for me, comes when I have to count on someone else. Since they are an outside factor, they introduce risk. The more I need to depend on them, the more risk I see. Of course, they can earn trust, and then the risk decreases...for example, If i needed to depend on my immediate family, I see it s low risk I trust my wife and kids because we have the same attitude. If I had to rely on my extended family, especially the non-entrepreneur ones, the risk factor goes up exponentially. they just aren’t capable of thinking in the right manner. They almost fear making decisions and see life outside of a job as nothing but risk. They are the deer in the headlights, unable to move. They’d drag me under the waves because they refuse to swim.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along, I don't know why you are having a problem finding a way to watch the series. I see all kinds of ways online.

https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&...ved=0ahUKEwiujNiVlbDkAhWHUt8KHb-HCXMQri4IOTAZ

I just tried one on myseries4you and although it had some annoying pop ups, I was able to watch the episode.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> They almost fear making decisions and see life outside of a job as nothing but risk. They are the deer in the headlights, unable to move. They’d drag me under the waves because they refuse to swim.


The entrepreneurial spirit cannot be taught. But it can be stifled, especially by education and corporate rules. In megacorp, I always asked my employees to think about what they are doing and find original ways to get the results. Some eventually responded very well. Often I would give them an example of how to improve their results and some would adopt it.

The key in such cases is to leave your ego at the door and create an attitude of team effort. Many successful executives have trouble doing that because the big ego got them into a position of power in the first place (such as succeeding in sales). The key to successful communications is getting the other person to do most of the talking and actively listening to what they say. Then direct the conversation by asking questions that lead them to the conclusions you are trying to achieve. Telling them is the least effective way.

That shows up in these forums in spades. No one changes their minds.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, is this the house that was renovated and sold?
https://www.eriecountypa.gov/proper...l-profile/photos.aspx?parcelid=18050081010700
https://www.eriecountypa.gov/proper...h/parcel-profile.aspx?parcelid=18050081010700
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/261-E-27th-St-Erie-PA-16504/52571007_zpid/

So it was "sold" on June 4th, but for some reason Zillow and the Erie county records differ on the selling history.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> Now if ANYONE can tell me how to stream this without cable, or satellite. I really do want to watch this.


https://www.ettv.to/torrents-search.php?search=undercover+billionaire


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

interesting article, it shows a study that reveals most successful tech companies are not founded by kids, but rather Middle Aged people...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/29/business/tech-start-up-founders-nest.html


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Plugging Along, I don't know why you are having a problem finding a way to watch the series. I see all kinds of ways online.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&...ved=0ahUKEwiujNiVlbDkAhWHUt8KHb-HCXMQri4IOTAZ
> 
> I just tried one on myseries4you and although it had some annoying pop ups, I was able to watch the episode.


I don’t know either, your link takes me to google searches I have already tried and the myseries4you had so many porn op up, I just got It of there 



Eder said:


> https://www.ettv.to/torrents-search.php?search=undercover+billionaire


Thanks, I had problems with this too. 

I will keep trying other ways. My spouse set up some sort of security that our internal network filters a lot of stuff. Oh well. I will just have to rely on the updates until we figure it out too.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

bgc_fan said:


> Just out of curiosity, is this the house that was renovated and sold?
> https://www.eriecountypa.gov/proper...l-profile/photos.aspx?parcelid=18050081010700
> https://www.eriecountypa.gov/proper...h/parcel-profile.aspx?parcelid=18050081010700
> https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/261-E-27th-St-Erie-PA-16504/52571007_zpid/
> ...


Yes, it appears to be the house. What difference in the selling history do you see? Looks the same to me.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

So I watched episode 4 last night. He continues to move towards his goal of flipping the house to get more start up money. Ran into a mold problem that cost him $5k to have dealt with. He has 30 days to pay that bill so is putting off paying it expecting to have sold the house before he has to pay that bill.

Meanwhile, he has found a BBQ cook, got agreement from a major Brewer to sell their beer as well as have a beer made just to be sold at the Underdog(name chosen for the restaurant). 

He has also been given access to a dedicated office space by the Small Business Center they can use. Also, he has made an agreement on a lease to buy of premises for the restaurant on a prime corner downtown. The premises are an existing bar/restaurant in good shape so will need minimum work to be ready to open.

He has also moved forward on the Ribfest competition that is upcoming. He has secured a space at the Ribfest and will be able to enter the competition. A win there will go a long way to boosting their profile when they open obviously. The Ribfest gets 50,000 visitors over the course of 4 days apparently.

The delays in the renovation of the house however have him worried that he is not going to be able to meet his timetable and the end of the episode sees him pretty downcast and worried that he is letting down his team.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Looks like the beer will become a bust at some point. No mention of underdog beer anywhere. Interestingly, I read an article about how he’s still involved with Erie, even putting money into the small business development office, sounds like he’s a kind of angel investor there too.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> interesting article, it shows a study that reveals most successful tech companies are not founded by kids, but rather Middle Aged people...
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/29/business/tech-start-up-founders-nest.html


Yes, the falsehood of 19 year old founders like Steve Jobs etc. starting most tech companies is often quoted by people but like many other things, it is a belief that does not stand up to scrutiny of the facts. The world is full of commonly held false beliefs. Say something enough times and it becomes a FACT in some people's minds. It's called 'illusory truth'.

That's part of the reason why it is so difficult to get some people to see where their thinking is not supported by the facts. They believe that what the believe IS fact. It's like someone telling you that really, the world is flat and your belief that it is a globe is a falsehood. Would you then do research to try and determine if they were right or you were right? Probably not, I know I wouldn't as I KNOW the world is a globe (kinda, a bit pear shaped actually).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_misconceptions


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> Looks like the beer will become a bust at some point. No mention of underdog beer anywhere. Interestingly, I read an article about how he’s still involved with Erie, even putting money into the small business development office, sounds like he’s a kind of angel investor there too.


I wasn't clear enough. Besides selling the brewery's existing beers, the brewery is going to brew a new beer (with their name on it still) which will ONLY be sold at the Underdog. So it will be the Underdog's 'house' beer but with the brewers name on it still. An 'exclusive' product if you will.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> I agree with most of that but would disagree with 'some luck involved'. To me that is the whole point of the show to prove that it is NOT luck. If a basketball player does free-throws, he can do so multiple times in minutes and show that it is not luck that is in operation, it is skill. Watching an NBA player do that repeatedly is as andrewf says, is not very exiting because you KNOW he is likely to sink more than he misses and there really isn't much point to proving he has the skill to do it.
> 
> But in the case of this show, we are watching someone doing something that MOST people would automatically say, 'it can't be done'. That is not the same as the NBA player and free-throws at all. Yes as a guy who has been successful in the past it is not unreasonble for andrewf to say, there's nothing 'exciting' in seeing he can do so again. That would be true IF people accepted that as a fact but obviously from many of the comments here a lot of people are in the camp of saying, 'it can't be done'. They are NOT accepting that he can do what he has done before. They aren't just saying, 'oh yeah but it was just luck', they aren't even accepting that it can be done with luck, they are saying it CAN"T be done and it must be fake.
> 
> .


Disagree all you want that's you belief, but it change mine that there is ALWAYS 'some luck' involved. The definition of luck is that there is some chance or things that you can't control. What parents, family, country, gender, timeframe, iq, looks, etc are all luck. I did not do ANYTHING to influence these things. My view on luck is it is what you make out of it. My parents weren't 'lucky' coming to Canada, but I was lucky they made that decision. I had good luck that my parents taught me a lot in finance and business, and choose to take it. Bad luck that genetics in other areas. Its arrogant to not recognize that there are just some things in the world that not matter how good you are you will just have to work harder. That's just the 'luck' of the draw. I tell my kids all the time how 'lucky' they are and because of their luck of supportive parents, and the many things they should show gratitude for, there is nothing that will stop them from achieving their goal. They won the gene pool in so many ways. They are also reminded that it's not going to be easy, they need to find their way. 

So I do believe in luck. That being said, the show and the people I know who started businesses again, were able to do it again to prove it wasn't just luck. I find the most successful are those who see the opportunities (luck) and made something out of it (skill). 

That's what I find interesting on this thread. Given the same scenarios how people respond. Some just can't see any opportunity and will poke holes in every thing, they will never make anything out of the opportunity presented. Others here will look at it as the opportunity but fail to have any recognition that the opportunity was presented by anything other they their own skill or 'awesomeness'. 



> I disagree with your characterization of the 'opposing arguers' of which I am obviously one, as being focused on how easy it is for some. I am *focused solely* on 'it can be done' and that those who believe it cannot be done, should be learning a lesson here. It can be done by some and the only way to know if it can be done by you is if you try, not just sit back and say, 'it can't be done, so there is no point in trying'


Of coarse you disagree. You have made your point in a 'It can be done'. You have made it really clear. I actually agree with you. Solely focused is where I question. You and the others spend more time bickering and puffing your chest to try and convince strangers you are right. Both side here spend time insulting each other, and it just deteriorates the conversation. I stayed in the thread because I thought it would be interesting to read about things people have tried and maybe failed, but the bickering and insults are the focus. Not the discussion. Maybe spent less time focused on trying to change the view and judge more time understanding the views and improving, this could have been a really fun thread.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, Google, Amazon.....are some pretty big companies founded by young adults either still in college or recent graduates.

The example of the Nest founder was a guy who worked for years at high levels in the technology companies, including Apple and had Steve Jobs as a mentor.

Millions of people of all ages build businesses, and some are very successful but the creme de la creme of business creation appears to be those of young people with few other commitments. It is much easier to "take chances" when you don't have other obligations and possibly still get help from parents.

A 40 year old with a mortgage and kids should probably keep their day job and work at a business as a hobby for awhile.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> You bring up a very valid point Plugging Along. People perceive risk vs. reward and when they perceive a great risk with an unknown reward, it is very difficult for them to 'take the plunge'. Most people will choose what they see as a 'sure thing' (their reasonably well paid existing job) over what they see as taking a huge risk, every time.
> .


So many interesting things in this post. I have spent a lot of time working with risks in terms of identification, mitigation, responses, etc and decision making in terms of risk. I even teach and lecture about it at college. I am going to get a little specific. Think of It as a ‘free’ class in risk.
The definition of risk there is an unknown element in terms of probability/likelihood of something happening or the impact/outcome of the whatever happening. That’s pretty much everything in life. Part of the work I do is showing people, businesses, groups how to think through the risks, as many people don’t assess it properly by both over estimating and underestimating the risk.



> The key point is all about how people perceive risk. As your Father suggested, if you have nothing, you risk nothing, so why not try something. A study done on entrepreneurs some years ago found that as a group, entrepreneurs do not tend to see ANY risk in what they do. They have some idea to start a business or make a product or whatever and cannot imagine it not being a success. There is NO risk in their view. They don't necessarily have to have better ideas than thousands of other people have had, they just have to ACT on their idea. That is what the other thousands don't do that differs.


The challenge lies then that risk is based on the specific scenario that the person is in so THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER. Then people try to over analyse to get the right answer and wont’ make a decision or take action. Almost all risk is perceived unless you have a history of data points, and the ability to run simulations (which I only do in business)
The point my dad had was the risk profile had changed. When one chooses to give up a salary for the dream of the ‘unknown’ then you have to look at the impact of that lost in salary. When you are working, you have 100% chance of getting your salary, giving that up is a higher risk than when you aren’t working you have a 0% chance of getting your salary. The irony of this is my older sibling wanted to go right on his own to make it big. My dad was, “No, go to school, get an education, get a job, and then see if you want to still get into business’ His reasoning was that once you leave school, it’s hard to get back into later. If you finished your schooling and then wanted to start on your own, then if starting out on your own didn’t work, you always had your education to fall back it. He told us all to go to school while he was young enough to support us. His support was a way to ‘mitigate’ the risks. He told us to go and take risks because he was also there to make sure we didn’t end up on the street. For other some of my friends who came from a more sink and swim and their parents wouldn’t or couldn’t help, they never took those risks. Different views on risks on the same opportunity of going to school. 



> *I know of no way to teach people to not see risk. * Some things we simply cannot know what the outcome will be until we try. So for example, your family emigrated to Canada HOPING for a better life but without KNOWING if it would turn out to be a better life or not. That did that even though they did perceive risk. So what does that tell us? Well to me it tells us that SOME people even if they do perceive risk are capable of taking a 'leap of faith'. Rather than trying to find something to try where you perceive no risk at all as some entrepreneurs are fortunate enough to be able to do. Accept that risk exists and STILL take that 'leap of faith'.


The key point to recognizing risk RELATIVE your own views is about understanding what assumptions and thoughts brought your to that assessment. The point is NOT about seeing there is no risk, that is actually dangerous, and usually comes from those who are over confident, and results can also be disastrous. Think Titanic, they were a 100% sure the boat was unsinkable. They didn’t recognize the risk

My parents did not come to Canada ‘HOPING’ for a better life. They knew based on what they wanted and their current conditions they would not have the life they wanted for the future. There was no internet then so their research was limited and based on what they heard from family members. They could have gone to other countries but because there were other people they knew that came here, they choose Canada. They could have done the US, Phillipines, France, South America, they made a lot of decisions made based on risk and how they would handle it. 



> In my younger days, I used to do some technical climbing. You know, with ropes etc. up a cliff face. Anyone who has done any climbing knows that even though if you are using proper technigues regarding safety, if you fall the rope will save you. But regardless of what you KNOW to be the case, the fear of falling and as a result DYING is still there in your mind. There is no greater consequence anyone can suffer than death obviously. All climbers also know that everyone falls sometimes and that there is always in fact a moment in time when you KNOW you are going to fall, before you do. In that nanosecond of time, the fear of dying is there. If in that nanosecond of time, someone were to say to you, 'make this decision and you will not fall', there is NO decision that you could not make in that nanosecond because the alternative that is right there front and centre in your mind is DEATH. Any decision you might be asked to make is simply not in the same league at all. If someone said 'should I quit my job and start my own business', you would have no problem deciding on an answer. It doesn't mean you would decide to quit but you sure as heck wouldn't be debating your answer.


All of those things don’t mean that there is no risk, but rather you have done things to reduce the risks. You have the rope and you know that won’t dye, but there is still that very small possibility that the rope isn’t tied properly. Of course death is one of the biggest impacts, it doesn’t mean that other impacts are not important at the time. Saying it isn’t death, doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with debating if you should start a business or not. The answer is always depends. 



> Whenever I have had decisions to make that I considered to be 'important' decisions, I have learned to ask myself one simple question. 'If I do this thing and it doesn't work out as I hope it will, WILL IT KILL ME. Literally. If it won't then it isn't as important as I might believe it is, I'm just being risk adverse and that is NOT a reason to be unwilling to take a chance on something.
> That is my own personal method and obviously is not one everyone could use if they have not had similar experiences with climbing. But I think most people could probably find something that would work for them if they tried to. The problem is most people never even try


That’s one good question to start with. Again, it’s worked for you, and this fine, but it doesn’t always work out. Being alive is good, but there are many other things people value in …. Well, life.. I won’t try convincing you otherwise. I think you miss all the other factors and under estimate the other factors in decision making. You are fairly black and white, death or not. I could come up with many anecdotal examples that both you and I are right. The only person that gets to decide if they are right or not is the decision maker.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, Google, Amazon.....are some pretty big companies founded by young adults either still in college or recent graduates.
> 
> The example of the Nest founder was a guy who worked for years at high levels in the technology companies, including Apple and had Steve Jobs as a mentor.
> 
> ...


Sure the risk is higher if you have kids and a mortgage, but I have already decided if get laid off I will start my own company next.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Jeff Bezos (amazon) isn’t young, he was born in 1964. sure, there are always exceptions, but they are called exceptions because they aren’t the “norm”. 

Not sure why some people keep thinking that the exception is somehow the rule. Then again, some people take two years to figure out their job has been costing them money...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Bezos founded Amazon in 1994, so he was 30 years old and has spent the last 25 years building it into the empire it is today.

He also received $250,00 from his parents in 1994 to start the web business, which was basically an online bookstore. That was a lot of money in 1994.

He didn't start with nothing and he put a lot of work into the business.

What you and LTA are claiming that it is possible for anyone, regardless of their circumstances to start a successful business and earn tons of easy money.

That simply isn't true. Most business success stories speak of years of attempts and failures, decades of hard work and some luck.

To claim that success is easy doesn't recognize the effort many have put into their businesses.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Sounds pretty well how the real world operates ... and not some make-believe reality on a show.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> Sure the risk is higher if you have kids and a mortgage, but I have already decided if get laid off I will start my own company next.


NO, the risk is no higher with or without kids and a mortgage. The risk of a new business failing is what it is, regardless of anything else. Having kids has no impact at all on that risk.

What people do though is put the risk of not being able to feed their kids ONTO the risk of a business failing. They are two entirely separate risks. Try putting what is being said in another way and see how ridiculous it sounds. ie. 'I want to open a restaurant, will my having kids make it more likely that the restaurant fails?' 

Risks of the restaurant failing might increase if for example you hire a lousy cook or pick a location where no one ever walks down that street, but you having kids will not increase risk and that should be obvious to anyone. Assigning risks to something that they have no effect on is quite common as a means of justifying not doing something.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> Bezos founded Amazon in 1994, so he was 30 years old and has spent the last 25 years building it into the empire it is today.
> 
> He also received $250,00 from his parents in 1994 to start the web business, which was basically an online bookstore. That was a lot of money in 1994.
> 
> ...


Sags, you really do need to stop trying to put words into other people's mouths and instead try reading what they actually write.

I have never claimed "it is possible for anyone regardless of their circumstances to start a successful business and earn tons of easy money." All I have ever claimed is that SOME people can start a successful business and that just because some fail does not mean that no one should ever try.

But the fact is that if someone came on here and posted, 'I'm thinking of opening a bar', they would get all kinds of naysayers like you saying, 'don't do it, you would be better off putting your money in GICs, bonds, stocks, etc. etc.' Instead of asking them questions to try and establish what their chances of success were and to try and offer them advice on how to proceed, they would get immediately hit over the head with a big hammer. 

What I for one am trying to say here is, 'look, people do succeed, there are examples all around us. Some do it in a relatively short time and seemingly with little difficulty and others take longer and overcome various obstacles along the way, but they do succeed. Yes, others try and fail but that is no reason to not try at all. Trying is the only way to know if you will succeed. Not trying is an automatic failure obviously. 

What the guy in the show is trying to show viewers is that it is possible to start a business with little capital and find a way to succeed. That if you do your homework in picking the business you go into; find the right people to work with; adapt along the way to changes; take advantage of opportunities that present themselves; pick the right location if that is important to the type of business, then you CAN succeed even though most people would tell you when you began that 'it can't be done'.

Now you might believe that it is not 'easy' to get all those things right but it does not change the fact that SOME people can get it right, whether they find it easy or hard to do is irrelevant. They might end up making just a decent living or they might end up making 'tons of easy money' but no one is saying it will get them 'tons of easy money', except YOU. You just seem to want to say, 'don't even try unless it is going to be easy, guaranteed to succeed and make you tons of money'. I'm not saying that nor is anyone else as far as I can see but that is what you seem to want to argue against, something YOU invented to argue against.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There are lots of good reasons why people should not risk everything to try to start a business.

Your reply to Plugging Along reveals you have no concept for reality. 

A person with a mortgage and kids can't just wander off and try to start a business. They have financial obligations that have to be met or the family will suffer.

People can chase dreams their whole life and end up broke in retirement. People are often financially devastated after putting all their money into a 'business".

Where do people get start up capital ? Their own resources, their family resources, and their friend's resources are the primary sources of capital.

Family, friends and themselves all stand to lose a lot in a failed startup business. 

People have a limited number of years to build some assets and shouldn't waste them chasing unicorns.

Get a job. Try your business idea as a hobby. If it is successful........move forward, but keep the job for awhile.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

The other thing people seem to miss is the guy is building in steps, not creating instant wealth. He started with tires, then cars, then houses, finally a business. Each time he reinvests the profits into things that make him greater profits, each time he encountered problems which he overcomes. I wouldn’t call his journey easy money by any means. 

Some people here are trying to rewrite the story into he took $100 and opened a restaurant, how fake. That’s not what happened at all.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

When I got injured and could no longer work, the fact that I had kids and a mortgage inspired me to succeed even more. I couldn’t afford to fail, so I was extra cautious in my decisions. I wasn’t a deer in the headlights though. 

There were no extra risks, there was more incentives to succeed. The risks weren’t that I had kids or a mortgage, they were the reason I couldn’t afford to fail.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> NO, the risk is no higher with or without kids and a mortgage. The risk of a new business failing is what it is, regardless of anything else. Having kids has no impact at all on that risk.
> 
> What people do though is put the risk of not being able to feed their kids ONTO the risk of a business failing. They are two entirely separate risks. Try putting what is being said in another way and see how ridiculous it sounds. ie. 'I want to open a restaurant, will my having kids make it more likely that the restaurant fails?'
> 
> Risks of the restaurant failing might increase if for example you hire a lousy cook or pick a location where no one ever walks down that street, but you having kids will not increase risk and that should be obvious to anyone. Assigning risks to something that they have no effect on is quite common as a means of justifying not doing something.


This in-depth analysis of the concept of "risk" is all a tad esoteric to me, so I should probably just remain on the sidelines. But to me, the rejoinder to PA's comment quoted seems to be subjecting the comment to an unwarranted and misguided analysis. Maybe PA will clarify (should clarification be needed), but what I understood to be the import of her words (which flowed from a comment made by sags), is that having kids and a mortgage does not impact the risk of a new business failing, but it exposes one's ability to support kids and the ability to pay the mortgage to risk that would not be present if one remained on someone else's payroll. That proposition seems, to me, unassailable.

But, just for hellery, I'll venture further, onto shakier ground. It might even be the case, sometimes, that the kids (if not the mortgage) WILL be a risk factor for the nascent business. I can envision a single parent, with 3 infants at home, trying to start up a restaurant, to use LTA's example. Sans kids, our budding entrepreneur might be able to devote time and energy to developing the business that would not be available to an entrepreneur with kids. 



Longtimeago said:


> Try putting what is being said in another way and see how ridiculous it sounds. ie. 'I want to open a restaurant, will my having kids make it more likely that the restaurant fails?'


To my simple way of thinking, the kids constitute an element of risk. I can see the possibility that there will be a tension between trying to do what is right in terms of raising one's kids and trying to give one's undivided attention to getting the business started. So, in that way, the presence of the kids increases the likelihood of business failure. Perhaps that sounds "ridiculous". I'll let the risk experts here demonstrate the fallacy in my reasoning.

Edit: While composing the above, JAG, I see, has already taken up the cause of revealing my error. Kids and a mortgage galvanize one into action and spur one on to success. Excellent.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Always the same either try to put words into someone's mouth ie. 'risk everything' or see something only as 'either/or'.

OK, let's suppose I want to start business. Let's further suppose I have kids to feed. What is to stop me from saying, 'I am willing to risk the business failing but I am not willing to risk my kids starving.' I see those as TWO separate things.

So, I deal with them SEPARATELY. To insure my kids don't starve is somewhat analogous to the guy in the TV series wanting to insure he has money to pay his rent so that he does not have that hanging over his head while he goes about trying to get a business going. He does that by setting aside enough money to pay 3 months rent as that is the time he is giving to getting the business going. Would it not be possible for me to set aside say 12 months grocery costs if I plan to give a business 12 months to succeed?

Everything is not an either/or, the word AND also exists. Start a business AND feed the kids. Gee what a concept. I could even add going to every hockey game into my overall plans if I wanted to, there is nothing to stop me doing that. I will just have to figure out how to start the business in the time that I make available to starting it. 

You can put all the obstacles you want out there, they are just obstacles to be overcome, they are not all dead ends. Let's be honest though. What MOST people see is not an obstacle to be overcome, they see a dead end. There are some things that are dead ends like something that is really stupid to begin with and has no reasonable chance of success but you cannot say that every obstacle is a dead end any more than you can say every idea has no chance of success.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> The other thing people seem to miss is the guy is building in steps, not creating instant wealth. He started with tires, then cars, then houses, finally a business. Each time he reinvests the profits into things that make him greater profits, each time he encountered problems which he overcomes. I wouldn’t call his journey easy money by any means.
> 
> Some people here are trying to rewrite the story into he took $100 and opened a restaurant, how fake. That’s not what happened at all.


 ... who are the "some people here" that you're referring to? I don't see that if you're referring to the "naysayers" of this thread. But if you're referring to the show writer, then I totally agree that's how fake the "reality" of it, if it wasn't listed as a "show" in the first place (the disclaimer). Just as fake and misleading as the title of this thread "Undercover Billionaire". Yeah, you can become a Billionaire, starting with $100 ... within "90 days" ... LOL. 

Also, I question the need to go "Undercover" when you want to "promote" the show? LOLOLOLOL ...


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

To be fair muk, 

Kids and a mortgage inspired me. I can see them being a barrier to others like Sags who looks for excuses as much as possible.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> Always the same either try to put words into someone's mouth ie. 'risk everything' or see something only as 'either/or'.


I have nothing to say about the whole notion of risk-taking, who succeeds, who does not, the reasons for success or failure or what attitude one need adopt for success. 

My point LTA, is if there is an element of "always the same" here, then it emanates from you. You challenged PA's innocuous comment (that really should have evoked no response at all) with an emphatic upper case "NO". A sure sign of rebuke. All to show how you know best. You were hell bent on showing her in error. I posted to show how she might not be so far off base. Nothing more.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Thanks beaver for being a good example of trying to rewrite reality in an effort to discredit a threat to some people’s reality. 

The show is called undercover billionaire because people would react differently if they knew he was already a billionaire. For people with money, you tend to always question the real motive behind relationships, something he even touched on in episode 3. He was presented as a successful businessman who had just survived cancer and was starting over. 

Also, the show is about building up a million dollar business in 90 days, not a billion dollars.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Just a Guy said:


> To be fair muk,
> 
> Kids and a mortgage inspired me. I can see them being a barrier to others like Sags who looks for excuses as much as possible.


And ya' know what JAG, I can quite see your point. I'll accept that, in your case, that's just how it worked. No doubt some will be driven just as you say. But I can see how, in some cases, someone with kids might get too distracted, too pulled in different directions, and might end up doing neither a good job of parenting, nor of starting a business.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^^ I guess you see the glass as being half-full all the times and others see it as half-empty.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> Thanks beaver for being a good example of trying to rewrite reality in an effort to discredit a threat to some people’s reality.
> 
> The show is called undercover billionaire because people would react differently if they knew he was already a billionaire. For people with money, you tend to always question the real motive behind relationships, something he even touched on in episode 3.* He was presented as a successful businessman who had just survived cancer and was starting over. *
> 
> Also, the show is about building up a million dollar business in 90 days, not a billion dollars.


 ... the show would have been more credible I say, if he was a homeless bum, given a $100 and trying to make a go of it.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I agree with you muk but, at the same time, I don’t think I’d call is a “risk” to the business...but then we’d only be arguing semantics based on opinions. To some it would be inspiration, to others an impediment and still others a distraction or something completely different. It all depends on the person. 

Not everyone can start a business, for some the very idea is so frightening they can’t even consider the idea...that doesn’t mean it’s impossible for others. I’m not sure the guy himself thinks it’s possible to create a million dollar business in 90 days, but that’s not really the point. The point is, he set up a goal, a very difficult goal in everyone’s opinion I’m sure, but without a goal, some people tend to just wander aimlessly. 

Very few people here tend to value all that he’s already accomplished, helped or not. Nothing he’s set out to do is implausible, it may be helped through scripting, it may not. The timeframe may be condensed for the show but, does that mean someone else couldn’t have done something similar?

I asked the question earlier about what if he didn’t succeed with his goal, but only made half, or a quarter of a million...is the guy a failure? Will the naysayers jump around for joy and congratulate themselves on not taking risks? The guy will have made a quarter of a million dollars in 90 days. Some people on this board couldn’t even get close to that in 90 days, but does it matter? 

Give the guy some credit, even if it’s completely scripted, he shows a plausible way for people to achieve success by building up small steps. Sure it may take more time than the show implies, but he shows that if you want to, and are creative, you could accomplish something big. He shows there are other paths than just union jobs, why is that such a threat?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Beaver101 said:


> ... the show would have been more credible I say, if he was a homeless bum, given a $100 and trying to make a go of it.



Giving the poor money is like giving a child a chainsaw. They don’t have any real knowledge of how to use it and will likely hurt themselves if left alone with it. I volunteer with the homeless a lot and I can assure you, the vast majority could not do anything with $100. 

That, of course, misses the whole point of the show. They don’t imply anywhere what anyone can do this with $100. Then again, this isn’t just anyone, it’s a self made billionaire.

There’s a reason people like LTA and I can defend the legitimacy of this guy’s accomplishments...because we could probably duplicate them, not as fast mind you, because of our past experience. We know how to do these things because we’ve done them in the past. It’s also the reason someone like Sags couldn’t do it, he’s got no clue as to how to pull it off, he’s never been in the situation and can’t even imagine it. Not his fault.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Is the guy truly a billionaire ? His company went bankrupt. What else does he own ?

There are forensic financial experts who say Donald Trump isn't a billionaire..........not even a millionaire but he plays one on television.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

I wish I was as bankrupt as Donald Trump.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Careful what you wish for. He may owe a lot of money to some not very nice people.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I wish I was as bankrupt as Donald Trump.


You mean you wish you inherited/were gifted hundreds of millions from your dad (billions inflation adjusted)?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> NO, the risk is no higher with or without kids and a mortgage. The risk of a new business failing is what it is, regardless of anything else. Having kids has no impact at all on that risk.
> 
> What people do though is put the risk of not being able to feed their kids ONTO the risk of a business failing. They are two entirely separate risks. Try putting what is being said in another way and see how ridiculous it sounds. ie. 'I want to open a restaurant, will my having kids make it more likely that the restaurant fails?'
> 
> Risks of the restaurant failing might increase if for example you hire a lousy cook or pick a location where no one ever walks down that street, but you having kids will not increase risk and that should be obvious to anyone. Assigning risks to something that they have no effect on is quite common as a means of justifying not doing something.


You are just reinforcing what I am saying. I never said having kids increases the risk of a business failing. You are correct, that the risk of business/restaurant failure is one risk. Whether one has kids neither impacts the probability or outcome of a restaurant success. There are many other primary risks as you said for if you the restaurant is successful or not.

The piece that you are failing to see is AND ANOTHER risk if you have kids/family to support. The risk is called a secondary risk, in which if the first risk occurs, in this case failure of a business, is there a risk that may occur. In this case, the risk is the ability to support ones family. If you have a family which you must support, and your business fails, there are potentially negative impacts to your family. There is a secondary linkage when it comes to the impact of if the business fails. Is it not no effect as you said. In fact, in the most serious (life and death, national security) types of scenarios will go to up to hexa (6) and hepa (7)-dary risk assessment. General 'best practice' in risk identification suggests secondary risks is suffice for most situations especially in business scenarios.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> There are lots of good reasons why people should not risk everything to try to start a business.
> 
> Your reply to Plugging Along reveals you have no concept for reality.
> 
> ...


For me, I don't think it's as black and white and you or LTA state. There are lots of people that start business with mortgages and kids. In fact the two largest groups of new entrepreneurs are mothers and immigrants. I don't think is fair to say that they wander off. In fact, since I was little my immigrant parents brought me along and included me in their rentals, etc. I take my kids to when I rent to tenants, and look a new ideas. Yes, depending on the situation, it can be hard but may not bee.

Where do they get the capital, again it depends. Some it will be friends and family, some with be government grants and programs, some through pure git. In fact many can find ways to create their own capital. That may be through their own savings, or like I said, I did many things to make extra money with very little money of my own. What I have personally found is that with hard work, time and some creativity you can find interesting ways to have capital. It doesn't have to be right at the start you have it all. So you are right, you can work as a hobby, but there is a point for some people that you need to make a choice and have to dedicate more time. Often people say that it's when you are making the same income, but in reality depending what your starting income is, it may have to be much less. People do have to make some sacrifices. 

Another thing I have noticed, is you often point out the differences between people and how it's 'easier' because the example had this. My kids tried that. I have told them to suck it up. Fair doesn't mean equal or the same. There is actually no right to have things fair in life. Everyone is dealt with the hand they have. Sometime the ONLY they can control is their perspective or attitude. They could choose to waste time complain why things aren't fair or how something was easier for someone else cause of the parents or whatever, or they can choose to do something about. However, the latter option will be the only one that can bring any change.

Right now, I now loving what I am doing, and my work has done some things I am not happy with. I don't complain, but rather, now I sitting decided what my next move is and weight out the impacts. I don't sit and whine about how crappy things are like some of my collogues.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Mukhang pera said:


> This in-depth analysis of the concept of "risk" is all a tad esoteric to me, so I should probably just remain on the sidelines. But to me, the rejoinder to PA's comment quoted seems to be subjecting the comment to an unwarranted and misguided analysis. Maybe PA will clarify (should clarification be needed), but what I understood to be the import of her words (which flowed from a comment made by sags), is that having kids and a mortgage does not impact the risk of a new business failing, but it exposes one's ability to support kids and the ability to pay the mortgage to risk that would not be present if one remained on someone else's payroll. That proposition seems, to me, unassailable.
> 
> But, just for hellery, I'll venture further, onto shakier ground. It might even be the case, sometimes, that the kids (if not the mortgage) WILL be a risk factor for the nascent business. I can envision a single parent, with 3 infants at home, trying to start up a restaurant, to use LTA's example. Sans kids, our budding entrepreneur might be able to devote time and energy to developing the business that would not be available to an entrepreneur with kids.
> 
> ...



You get an A in my class. That's exactly what I was saying. In fact, you went further in my more advance class of further breaking down risk elements. 
I was trying to be simple and talk about the impact of a business failing (primary risk) on the kids or family (secondary). You bring in the element on how you define the risk, in this case having kids could be a primary risk. If your risk is not being able to put enough time or money into your business to get it a float, and you time and money is tied up with your kids, then the kids ARE actually a primary risk to the business. No fallacy in reasoning (that's supposed to be another area I may decide to teaching), so another A in the logic area, (though lawyers are one of the most logical bunch I have met).


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Mukhang pera said:


> And ya' know what JAG, I can quite see your point. I'll accept that, in your case, that's just how it worked. No doubt some will be driven just as you say. But I can see how, in some cases, someone with kids might get too distracted, too pulled in different directions, and might end up doing neither a good job of parenting, nor of starting a business.


We have had to make this exact assessment many times since we have had kids. My spouse wanted to finish his PHd. The amount of time required was huge and the impact on his parenting and family would be too huge to risk. We concluded that at that time in our lives, the risk impact to the kids was too high and not worth it. Same things happened when i took a higher demanding job thinking my kids were growing, and the demands were too high. I had to make a choice between time with kids and career. Same with other business opportunities, though I look at each one separately, I consider the time, money and quality life impacts in each case. Hence, why I have not chosen to set out on my own.

Some say it's an excuse, that's fine, they know squat about me, but i say it's a very well thought out decision.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Thanks for the comments PA, very informative :encouragement:


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... the show would have been more credible I say, if he was a homeless bum, given a $100 and trying to make a go of it.


But why does everything have to start with nothing? Why not start with an immigrant that doesn't speak the language, who is homeless, and have physical or mental challenge? There is always some one that starts with more and those that start with less. That is life. The billionaire can't change the fact that he has been successful, white male with seemingly good skills, any more than someone can change being a female, immigrant, with health issues (insert whatever differences)? Hearing what the guy is trying to do, if you didn't do a description of the person, but said someone is going to make a million $ with $100, and truck and her brains, wouldn't that be an accomplishment? 

I am definitely one of those that view the world as each challenge is just an opportunity to figure out something.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Thanks for the comments PA, very informative :encouragement:


LOL... can you tell this an area I am very interested in. Sorry for the long post, but people should look at it as an opportunity to learn about dealing with risks. I usually charge for this :friendly_wink:


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Plugging Along said:


> You get an A in my class.



Thanks! I'll take it!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> You are just reinforcing what I am saying. I never said having kids increases the risk of a business failing. You are correct, that the risk of business/restaurant failure is one risk. Whether one has kids neither impacts the probability or outcome of a restaurant success. There are many other primary risks as you said for if you the restaurant is successful or not.
> 
> The piece that you are failing to see is AND ANOTHER risk if you have kids/family to support. The risk is called a secondary risk, in which if the first risk occurs, in this case failure of a business, is there a risk that may occur. In this case, the risk is the ability to support ones family. If you have a family which you must support, and your business fails, there are potentially negative impacts to your family. There is a secondary linkage when it comes to the impact of if the business fails. Is it not no effect as you said. In fact, in the most serious (life and death, national security) types of scenarios will go to up to hexa (6) and hepa (7)-dary risk assessment. General 'best practice' in risk identification suggests secondary risks is suffice for most situations especially in business scenarios.


Well now it seems you are back-pedaling on your earlier remark. _ "Sure the risk is higher if you have kids and a mortgage,"_ Now you are saying that I don't see the AND?

I didn't state there could not be any ands I stated that having kids did not increase the risk of a business failing. Now you want to change your tune to agree with me? That they are separate risks? 

_"I never said having kids increases the risk of a business failing. You are correct, that the risk of business/restaurant failure is one risk. Whether one has kids neither impacts the probability or outcome of a restaurant success. There are many other primary risks as you said for if you the restaurant is successful or not."_ But it sure looked to me like you said having kids DID make the risk higher. So either I can't comprehend English or you failed to actually write what you meant to try and communicate. 

You write of secondary risks and I can accept that connection but you are also asking me to accept the IMPORTANCE of those secondary risks in terms of just how high risk I would perceive them to be. So for example, all I can say is there would never be a situation under which I would not be able to feed my children. That to me is of no risk at all, just wouldn't happen. You talk of it as a 'risk' but what I hear is a 'fear' and fears are not real, danger is real. Fear is in a person's head, not in reality.

I have found myself in real danger and as some say, 'seen the elephant' three times in my life. 

A reasonable definition of that term is, "Experience more than one wants to, learn a hard lesson; also, see combat, especially for the first time. For example, After the expedition lost two climbers in an avalanche, they had seen the elephant and turned back, or On his first tour of duty he saw the elephant." 

I am using it to refer to having been near to death as a result of something I chose to do. Once when travelling in a dangerous area of Africa and was taken at gunpoint by rebel soldiers. Twice in incidents when I was backpacking in wilderness and got into situations where I almost did not get out.

My views of risk, fear, danger or any other term you wish to argue semantically or refer to as secondary etc. etc. are different from the view of most people. You seem to want to go 'academic' on the topic. I am talking about real life, real risks that may or may not exist and what I compare them to in terms of just how much weight to give them when deciding to do something. Risk is assessed solely by the individual. My kids not eating if I started a business is no risk at all. My ending up homeless if I started a business is no risk at all. There can be a risk of a business I start not succeeding but if that happens it will be MY fault for getting something wrong somewhere along the line. I accept that risk without difficulty because again, it won't kill me.

I don't expect everyone to perceive risk as I do but I do think we can try to tell people that how they perceive risk is not the same as how someone else might perceive it and that IT IS POSSIBLE to change your perception of such things. That if someone comes here and wants to try something 'different', that they should not be told 'it can't be done' simply because someone else is not capable of doing it.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Risk perception is subjective. You'd need go 'academic' to understand that though.
At least we know that your nurturing dad-will-feed-you skills are better than your back-country skills.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

No back peddling at all. Let’s play follow the thread logic with the shortened version. I start with: 
# 1.


Plugging Along said:


> The definition of risk there is an unknown element in terms of probability/likelihood of something happening or the impact/outcome of the whatever happening. That’s pretty much everything in life.The challenge lies then that risk is based on the specific scenario that the person is in so THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER. … The key point to recognizing risk RELATIVE your own views is about understanding what assumptions and thoughts brought your to that assessment. The point is NOT about seeing there is no risk.


Then I responded with a thread to SAGS; 
#2.


> Sure the risk is higher if you have kids and a mortgage


There is a secondary risk, which MP understood right away, but I responded anyways since you did not seem to recognize that my comment about the kids an mortgage were referring to the impact of the if the business failing . What is false about this? There is more risk, secondary but it is a risk. 

#3


> I never said having kids increases the risk of a business failing. You are correct, that the risk of business/restaurant failure is one risk. Whether one has kids neither impacts the probability or outcome of a restaurant success. There are many other primary risks as you said for if you the restaurant is successful or not.


Where is this contradictory? They are two different risk



Longtimeago said:


> Now you are saying that I don't see the AND? I didn't state there could not be any ands I stated that having kids did not increase the risk of a business failing. Now you want to change your tune to agree with me? That they are separate risks?


Because you said this:


> NO, the risk is no higher with or without kids and a mortgage.


I would say these two quotes you said are contradictory. This says there are no risks (you even repeat that). You don’t see the And or you do? You never said there were seperate risks. Which one is it? 

Why are you arguing again? Your post indicates you see that you didn’t see that there were two separate risk. Let me spell out just in case 1. Risk of business failure 2. Risk if the business fails (impact to family). The are mutually exclusive hence the ‘and’ yet have 2 risks is higher than one. 



Longtimeago said:


> But it sure looked to me like you said having kids DID make the risk higher. So either I can't comprehend English or you failed to actually write what you meant to try and communicate.


I already proved there is a higher secondary risk. That’s a fact. 
I haven’t failed to write what I meant. It could be your English comprehension, but I suspect many other reasons for your lack of comprehending. If you would like input why you are having problems, you may want to open another thread. 



Longtimeago said:


> You write of secondary risks and I can accept that connection but you are also asking me to accept the IMPORTANCE of those secondary risks in terms of just how high risk I would perceive them to be.


Wait, you did agree about my secondary risk. Hurray you have learned something. So I give you a C+ for that. 
Where did I ask you to accept the importance? Let’s go back to my #1 quote. Back to an F. 



> The challenge lies then that risk is based on the specific scenario that the person is in so THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER. … The key point to recognizing risk RELATIVE your own views is about understanding what assumptions and thoughts brought your to that assessment. The point is NOT about seeing there is no risk.


Maybe I wasn’t clear, though it seemed clear to me. There is no right on how a risk is perceived. Its back on the person identifying and analyzing the risk and their experiences. The point is not to say the risk isn’t there, which LTA has said there is no risk, but rather to say, there is a risk, that is not a problem for me for reason X. However, even if its not a risk for you because of your situation, it is still a risk for others. The stuff about life and death, and elephants that… whatever. I have also had life and death experiences but wouldn’t know that would you. I have both real life and academic experience. Your personal anecdotes do not impact me any more than mine to you. Its ignorant to assume that ones experiences are less or more valid, hence I don't try to go there. However, the Risk frameworks are pretty clear. 
Maybe I can be even clearer, *Risk is subjective to the people identifying it. There is no wrong perception of the risk.* What can be wrong is not recognizing the risk. 



> IT IS POSSIBLE to change your perception of such things. That if someone comes here and wants to try something 'different', that they should not be told 'it can't be done' simply because someone else is not capable of doing it.


If there is no wrong perception of risk, why are you trying to change the perception of strangers on the internet? Being told it can’t be done is just as putting as I could do so can everyone else. It’s the same side of the coin. People who understand squat them about someone telling what they can or cannot do, especially in condensing ways while cherry pick their views is not very effective. If one was truly trying to be helpful, they would present a more wholesome view that things are not black and white and leave it to reader to ask more questions that may have them consider their scenario under different areas.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

sags said:


> Careful what you wish for. He may owe a lot of money to some not very nice people.


He also owns some very expensive real estate he bought in the seventies and eighties

Don't tell me you fell for that yarn about the Russian mob cosigning his loans? The reporter on that story started back pedalling as soon as the words were out of his mouth.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> But why does everything have to start with nothing?


 ... isn't that the whole idea of the show? Start with a dollar value of (almost) nothing, eg. $100 and make a million bucks or so. Or is the show emphasizing on previous skills-set (a return of the billionaire businessman) which then illustrates the show is rigged too (apart from staged).



> Why not start with an immigrant that doesn't speak the language, who is homeless, and have physical or mental challenge?


 ... that would have been better, making the show more credible or reflective of the real world. 

I'm sure (aware) there're plenty of immigrants who came to this country without so much as a few bucks in their pocket who did well or very well ... millionaire and plus status. Their achievements were not without alot of "sacrifices", done over a few generations even. And they didn't need a show to prove that. Perhaps you would know of one family.

As an example of a homeless with a physical/mental challenge, on top of my head ... I can think of James Bowen, author of A Street Cat named Bob. "Real-life", "average Joe unknown" ... not a millionaire but pretty comfortable now. He came a long way. Maybe it's just me ... reality shows don't inspire me.



> There is always some one that starts with more and those that start with less. That is life.


 ... I don't dispute that. 



> The billionaire can't change the fact that he has been successful, white male with seemingly good skills, any more than someone can change being a female, immigrant, with health issues (insert whatever differences)?


 ... see above comments. 



> Hearing what the guy is trying to do, if you didn't do a description of the person, but said someone is going to make a million $ with $100, and truck and her brains, wouldn't that be an accomplishment?


 ... he doesn't even have to turn the $100 to anything more than that to be considered an accomplishment. Even failure can be an accomplishment, if you take out the dollar value part. But what he is trying (via the show) to turn $100 to $1,000,000 in ... and 90 days (I digress) is simply unrealistic ... I'll take the show for what it is ... entertainment.



> I am definitely one of those that view the world as each challenge is just an opportunity to figure out something.


... yes, you have that fire in your belly for that ... unfortunately, some/many people don't. If we all do or think the same, we'll all end up like Barbie or Ken from the production line.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Beaver, from the sound of your posts, I gather you haven’t seen the show at all. If this is true, can you tell me why you are so negative towards it to the point of trying to make sure no one else wants to watch it either. Does the concept so frighten you? How is it okay for immigrants to be successful over time, but a white guy being successful quickly is impossible? Because you couldn’t do it?

You’re final comment about everyone thinking the same is rather ironic, as you seem to want everyone to stop thinking about the show and agree with you.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ I have indicated in previous posts I have not seen it and will not be watching it. I gather you didn't see that or the post where I said that. Also, I'm not sure where or how I'm preventing no one else from watching it either ... aren't you watching it? Or you saying my "negativity" or what I'm saying is the show is unrealistic (or is this your idea of the "concept"?) is preventing others from watching it? I didn't know my "negative comments" (or your perceived version) is that powerful. 

What was so ironic about my final comments? I was merely pointing out to PA that we (as human beings) are all different and think differently. We agree and disagree. Not to have everyone stop thinking about the show and agreeing with me - that's your interpretation or is it more like we have to agree with you.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

If you don’t like the show then why don’t you state that and be done with it then. Instead you constantly criticize something you haven’t seen and have no real clue as to what you are talking about. 

Either watch the show and give it fair criticism, or don’t watch it. I don’t understand people who criticize something they know nothing about. I suppose it makes it much easier to criticize though since, if someone posts up actual facts about the show, it’s much easier to dismiss as you never saw it. 

You sound like my kids when they were about three and hated everything to do with new foods. They of course refused to try it because it was bad. They were also always surprised when they liked it.

You seem to present yourself as an expert on the show, talking about how unrealistic it is...can you tell me a specific scene in the show which is unrealistic and what specifically is unrealistic about it? You haven’t seen the show.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I read an article that was written by a wealthy man, a past owner of an NHL team in fact.

He attended business school and made some good friends in school.

Many years after graduation, there was a reunion and the two met up and compared notes of the intervening years.

This guy's story was that he discovered a small piece of land was available for sale in the downtown business area of a city. It was too small a plot of land to build anything on. He bought it with an idea in mind.

He paved the space, put in lines for a few cars to park and then went door to door in the businesses offering a steady, reasonable place for people to rent for parking.

People rented spaces and he had them send him cheques every month. No parking meters, no booth, no employees.

He started buying tiny pieces of land in busy areas anywhere he could find them, in many different cities.

He built up a wealth of space and the rental money flowed in every month, but it didn't happen overnight and he put years into building it up.

His friend had worked at investment banks through his career and had done pretty well for himself, but had not amassed anywhere near the same amount of wealth.

What I take from this and other stories of success..........it is possible, but it will take a good idea, patience, dedication and sacrifice to achieve it.

People looking for fast, easy money are the type that slick scam promoters prey on.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> Plugging Along said:
> 
> 
> > But why does everything have to start with nothing?
> ...


Can we all say together "drama that drives ratings that rakes in money"? :biggrin:

How interesting would it be to follow someone who has finished business school, has the backing of several major banks/capitalists and created say an ice cream empire in California or Florida? I suppose personalities would help but with someone with skills starting with almost nothing, in a challenging area - doesn't that add drama and doubt it can be done?




Beaver101 said:


> ... Or is the show emphasizing on previous skills-set (a return of the billionaire businessman) which then illustrates the show is rigged too (apart from staged).


Dictating the limited means that is started with and where to start "rigs" the odds against the businessman, n'est pas?




Plugging Along said:


> ... Why not start with an immigrant that doesn't speak the language, who is homeless, and have physical or mental challenge?


I wonder when we might see that show ... though possibly it might not have all that great appeal in the US and possibly some barriers to being distributed by TPTB who buy the shows.

Half of it is to get a concept that appeals (i.e. gets viewers) and half is to get it distributed widely enough for expenses to be paid and profits to roll in.




Beaver101 said:


> .... I'm sure (aware) there're plenty of immigrants who came to this country without so much as a few bucks in their pocket who did well or very well ... millionaire and plus status. Their achievements were not without alot of "sacrifices", done over a few generations even. And they didn't need a show to prove that ...


While I'd bet Nav Bhatia wasn't broke, he also was not able to use his educational/vocational training in Canada so he started where he could.



> Bhatia immigrated to Canada in 1984 as a trained mechanical engineer, but he wasn’t able to use his international credentials to find work here in his field. So, he did what he could: he took a job at Rexdale Hyundai, located in what has long been one of Toronto’s more underprivileged neighbourhoods, as a car salesman.
> 
> “It was mainly a white staff, and they all called me names and all those kinds of things,” Bhatia said. “I decided I would have to do better than good if I wanted to survive.”


https://www.autotrader.ca/newsfeatu...tia-lives-the-canadian-dream-by-selling-cars/


It would be interesting to see what sort of ratings a show involving him would make in both Canada and the US but I'm doubting it will happen anytime soon.


Cheers


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I read the book on Ben and Jerry it was interesting eclectic. 

I’ve ready the bios of several successful people. Of course, I assume several items are glossed over, or modified from the truth, but that doesn’t make them less educational to some extent.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Beaver101;2038766
... that would have been better said:


> I have given up on TV being anything close to the real world. To be honest, I know what is the reflection of the 'real world' any more. There are so differences, and people get so offended about their group not being represented, I don't even think of it. That's a different story though. I try to look at the generic messages when it comes to this show. Person doesn't have a lot in term of $ or materials, could they make the American dream.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Risk perception is subjective. You'd need go 'academic' to understand that though.
> At least we know that your nurturing dad-will-feed-you skills are better than your back-country skills.


Umm, which skills do you think it was that saved me OnlyMyOpinion? It was my 'back-country skills' that saved my bacon. Duhhhhh.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> If you don’t like the show then why don’t you state that and be done with it then.


 ... how can I state that I "dislike" the show when I haven't watched it and will not be watching it as you've also criticized below? 



> Instead you constantly criticize something you haven’t seen and have no real clue as to what you are talking about.


 ... I have enough clues from LTA and your posts already. And I conclude it is unrealistic .... just entertainment ... to me. Nothing stopping from you and others from "learning" and being "inspired" by it.



> Either watch the show and give it fair criticism, or don’t watch it. I don’t understand people who criticize something they know nothing about. I suppose it makes it much easier to criticize though since, if someone posts up actual facts about the show, it’s much easier to dismiss as you never saw it.
> 
> You sound like my kids when they were about three and hated everything to do with new foods. They of course refused to try it because it was bad. They were also always surprised when they liked it.
> 
> You seem to present yourself as an expert on the show, talking about how unrealistic it is...can you tell me a specific scene in the show which is unrealistic and what specifically is unrealistic about it? You haven’t seen the show.


 ... see above. Also, can't compare to your kids not liking the new foods (cause they haven't tried it). The stakes are incredibly higher in real-life business ... unlike reality shows. 

Anyhow, since you do not like other POVs or what you perceive as "negativity" or "criticisms", or me trying to prevent others from watching the show, I'll get off this thread and let you prove that you're right ... the Undercover Billionaire ... amassing $1,000,000 with $100 to start ... in how about 900 days? Tell me when that happens.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> Can we all say together "drama that drives ratings that rakes in money"? :biggrin:
> 
> ...
> It would be interesting to see what sort of ratings a show involving him would make in both Canada and the US but I'm doubting it will happen anytime soon.
> ...


 ... you're totally right there. The "drama" is what makes it so alluding. As said, it's just entertainment to me. The worst part is getting the audience (like me) into believing it. In short, typical sell-job.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> What I take from this and other stories of success..........it is possible, but it will take a good idea, patience, dedication and sacrifice to achieve it.
> 
> People looking for fast, easy money are the type that slick scam promoters prey on.


You can have all the things you mentioned, and still not achieve but you can also have people make easy money and not be scammed. Whether one is successful or not depends on so many different things, some you can control some you cannot. There are many studies and predictors of success, and they are still wrong. There are no guarantees except one, that is if they don't try. I can guarantee you can't do well if you don't even try.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Beaver101 said:


> ... you're totally right there. The "drama" is what makes it so alluding. As said, it's just entertainment to me. The worst part is getting the audience (like me) into believing it. In short, typical sell-job.


How can it be entertainment when you don’t watch it? Or do you find criticizing it on a message board entertaining? That would make sense.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Getting back to the whole point of the series and ignoring all the sidetracking that has gone on, I think the question to be answered is relatively simply, however complicated some people want to try and make it.

Can someone start with next to nothing and build a million dollar business in 90 days? Yes or no?

You don't even have to watch the series to have an opinion on that question. Even Beaver101 can answer quite easily. 

The series is following a man who obviously believes the answer is yes, it can be done. If someone here wants to say, 'it's fake', that's up to them and clearly indicates that they do not believe it can be done.

I personally am of the opinion that yes, it can be done by SOME individuals although certainly not ALL individuals. What is certain, is it cannot be done by anyone who does not try. 

At this point I see no point in continuing any circular arguments on the subject. I'll continue to watch the series, cheer for the 'Underdog' team (it's no longer about just one person) and hope for their success. I suppose the naysayers will hope to hear that they failed and isn't that a sad reflection on how some people think.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> You can have all the things you mentioned, and still not achieve but you can also have people make easy money and not be scammed. Whether one is successful or not depends on so many different things, some you can control some you cannot. There are many studies and predictors of success, and they are still wrong. There are no guarantees except one, that is if they don't try. I can guarantee you can't do well if you don't even try.


True......I won't win the lottery if I don't buy a ticket, but somebody is going to win.

There are stories about overnight riches, but they are very rare and largely depend on a lot of good fortune.

One that comes to mind is the Canadian in Florida during the Christmas season. He noticed the "icicle lights" hanging from houses, which he had never seen before.

He contacted the manufacturer and asked if they sold in Canada. When they said no, he asked to be the exclusive Canadian dealer and they said sure.......why not.

He took a sample of the lights to Canadian Tire and they purchased a huge order that he had drop shipped to their warehouse from the manufacturer.

After that he just expanded his business across all the retailers in Canada.

Right place, right time, and creative thinking came together for him to be successful, but it is a lot easier to say it can be done than actually doing it.

The lights were actually invented by a mother and daughter who owned a store in Indiana. They patented the idea in 1996.

The lights were a huge success in the US, before they were introduced into Canada.

https://www.loupdargent.info/2014/12/the-history-of-icicle-lights.html


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Well, we already know he doesn’t “fail”. The house is sold, the business is running...

The question becomes did he meet his goal of a million dollar business. Is a BBQ restaurant a million dollar idea? Then again I ask the question does it even matter. What if it was only a half million dollar idea or a quarter million, he built it up, step by step, from next to nothing. I’d say he was successful any way you look at it. He certainly didn’t wind up with nothing.

Either way, I’m sure the naysayers will be perfectly content as they head off to work knowing, in their mind, it was just a TV show...


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Of course he's successful. He got himself a TV program, he's a hollywood star now. 
Ronald, Donald can you tell him what should be next on his bucket list?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I suppose the real issue comes down to attitude. In my house you aren’t allowed to say “I can’t”. There is always at least one solution, it may not be my way, but there is a way.

Other houses seem to teach “I can’t” is perfectly acceptable, a mantra even. A self fulfilling prophecy at least. Fear, uncertainty and doubt...don’t rock the boat, stay with the herd...don’t worry about the cliff ahead.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Beaver101 said:


> Also, can't compare to your kids not liking the new foods (cause they haven't tried it). The stakes are incredibly higher in real-life business ... unlike reality shows.


Again, spoken from an area of expertise...

How many businesses have you started? About as many as the episodes of Undercover Billionaire that you’ve watched by chance?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> How can it be entertainment when you don’t watch it?


 ... I'm labelling it as entertainment as it is a show after-all. I didn't say I would watch it as entertainment. In fact, repeating from one of my post, I would only watch it if I was bored out of my mind or that's the last piece of entertainment (aka "show) in this world. 



> Or do you find criticizing it on a message board entertaining? That would make sense.


 ... that's your interpretation, not common sense.



Last repeat: I will not be watching it and am out of this thread. Bye.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> Again, spoken from an area of expertise...


 ... I never claimed I had the expertise ... unlike you. 



> How many businesses have you started? About as many as the episodes of Undercover Billionaire that you’ve watched by chance?


 ... 2 businesses plus in the workforce simultaneously. I have seen zero episodes of UB and this will remain the same.

Absolute Bye, bye. Not trolling with you anymore.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> I suppose the real issue comes down to attitude. In my house you aren’t allowed to say “I can’t”. There is always at least one solution, it may not be my way, but there is a way.
> 
> Other houses seem to teach “I can’t” is perfectly acceptable, a mantra even. A self fulfilling prophecy at least. Fear, uncertainty and doubt...don’t rock the boat, stay with the herd...don’t worry about the cliff ahead.


Our house is similar. However, we recognize that there are other perspectives and we don't just on that. One thing to be cognoscente about (though doesn't sound like it in your house) is with some kids and personalities, they can be pushed into a state of mental anxiety. I have a kid who is already a perfections, and will try to 'solve' everything. It stresses her out and others around them, when she tries to fix the problem the way she sees it. There is the downside of thinking you can do anything if you just try hard enough. Its the other extreme of trying to control everything.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> True......I won't win the lottery if I don't buy a ticket, but somebody is going to win.
> 
> There are stories about overnight riches, but they are very rare and largely depend on a lot of good fortune.
> 
> ...


See SAGS, it can be done. I have brought in products from the US and in other countries, most I have made money, and all have broken even, but none have made me an instant success. I am okay with that. I keep trying, my kids see me trying. Part of the success for a lot of people is recognizing the opportunity is there, but they fail. I have a few 'doh' moments where I think why in the world didn't I get in when I had the opportunity. One was in the early phases of crytos. Our acquaintance(not technical) asked us about it, my spouse who is an expert in technology, blew it off, but was nice enough to consult on how it could done, in terms of mining. Our acquaintance asked if we wanted to get in with him, we thought was one of those scams and not worth our time. We gave him a ton of advice from the technical standpoint, which he followed a lot of it. In the 2 years, he made millions on our execution idea, got rid of some just before things got crazy, kept some, and moved to some island. He sent us a nice thank you.

So I was reminded that not even trying can be costly too.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It could have been a scam as you thought and he still made millions of dollars. The two are not mutually exclusive.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Failure is quite acceptable in our family. You learn a lot more from failure than success, but that doesn’t mean you get to stop just because you failed. The issue probably still needs to be solved, so try something else. 

My kids are at the high end of the spectrum. Those who know those types understands that mental illness is as common as at the other end of the spectrum, they are just better at hiding it. Balancing the perfectionism with fixing the issue is part of the process. Life is too short to get stressed over things. It’s part of the process.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> It could have been a scam as you thought and he still made millions of dollars. The two are not mutually exclusive.


It could have been, but it wasn't. I think that one was particularly difficult to swallow. It wasn't because he made millions, but was the fact if we came in with an open mind and properly looked it, we would have done it differently. We didn't follow our normal though process because of arrogance on our part. Our arrogance was that the acquaintance was non technical, and often looked for quick ways to get rich. We immediately dismissed the idea, but still helped because we were too arrogant that were was even an opportunity because didn't understand it. Even if it was a scam, if we have looked further, the entry costs at the time was very very low. Its our time, maybe some brain power (which we had freely given anyways), and possible a low capital for the equipment which we would have kept. If it was a scam, we would have been out nothing except some time. 

I pride myself being able to objectively looking at different angles and trying to figure it out. Usually, I do figure out if it's a scam or not, and am often right. In my example, I didn't even try to get into the game.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Don’t feel so bad plugging, there are many opportunities I’ve “missed” because they don’t fit into my investing strategy, it has probably cost me a bundle, but it didn’t prevent me from being successful. My investment strategy is very conservative in my opinion, very radical from some outsider’s opinions, but it works so I stick to it. I’ve got more than enough now, so missing out on those opportunities really didn’t matter.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We have all missed opportunities.

We lived beside a nice older couple and their sister lived across the road. They were renting the bottom of a duplex.

I got a knock on the door and the older fella said the owner was selling and they didn't want to move, so he would give me 12 months rent in advance to buy the place.

I said I would think about it. That night we had the ball team back to our backyard and had a few brews. I told them the story of the house next store.

A few days later I looked out and one of the guys from the ball team was standing next door. I wandered over and asked him what was up.

Oh, he said........I just bought this house.

The guy bought it, collected the 12 months rent and sold it years later for a nice profit when the older folks moved out. He never even had to change tenants.

Oh well.........what can you do.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

While you were thinking someone else was acting. The best deals seldom wait around very long. A year's rent in advance would be most of the down payment if you got a CMHC 10% down mortgage. And there was a second rent check to cover the mortgage payment. Maybe not a nothing down deal but close. If someone offered me a good duplex with good tenants in place for nothing or nearly nothing I don't think I would hesitate to buy it.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> Oh well.........what can you do.


You can act, that is what you can do, but did not do sags. The other guy simply acted on the opportunity he saw.

I realize, 'Oh well....what can you do', is a common rhetorical question but in fact it is usually just an excuse for not doing something. It absolves the speaker in their own mind, from all blame. But only in their own mind. Someone else looking at something might say, 'boy you were stupid not to jump on that opportunity.' Being polite of course, they don't say that, they just let the person kid themselves about it.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Would have, could have, should have...........didn't.

It is impossible to move forward looking in the rear view mirror. Opportunity missed maybe, but then I might have decided to check the eaves and fallen off the ladder.

I guess some of us don't want to plunge into something without giving it a lot of thought first.

On balance, that philosophy has worked out well for me.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

There's the lack of action but more importantly - why would you let others know about the opportunity *before* you came to a decision?


Cheers


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Eclectic12 said:


> There's the lack of action but more importantly - why would you let others know about the opportunity *before* you came to a decision?
> 
> 
> Cheers


Affirmation from friends that it is a good decision? Another set of eyes on the numbers?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

From a trusted person or two ... or more importantly, one's spouse, sure.


Telling the ball team though?

Are they really all that close and trustworthy?
I take that back - the guy who bought the house did his own thing so there was at least one that wasn't as trustworthy as I'd want for any feedback on a financial opportunity. :rolleyes2:



Cheers


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Or he felt more urgency to rush and take a chance than we did at the time. 

I sense from some of the posts here that some people are in a more precarious financial position than others and are more driven to search for solutions.

For some of us it is the classic story of the tortoise and the hare while hoping for a "steady as she goes" outcome.

_A slight lee-lurch, and a creaking of the timber as the ship breasted the billow, and than was heard the first-lieutenant's call to the helmsman, and the hoarse, quiet reply, Steady as she goes ! as the ship sailed out of the harbor._


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Or he was financially stable where he didn't want to miss out.

Regardless of the reason, I wouldn't be sharing that widely until I had made my decision ... but that's me.


Cheers


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Running the numbers to determine if its a good deal or not doesn’t take long. Looking for affirmation from friends or family, especially non-investing ones, would probably never happen as they are unwilling to take the “risk” themselves.

Just look at this board and the feedback one gets if you venture outside of HISA and GICs...

not having the confidence to invest is what prevents people from making money.

There’s a reason why some people feel the need for UBI and others don’t need government handouts. Never heard a real successful person say “tax the rich”.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I don't think anyone has ever had a shortage of excuses for why they didn't do something. 

A common excuse is one like, _"I guess some of us don't want to plunge into something without giving it a lot of thought first."_ Notice how it appears to be logical and prudent, describing a wise course of action. The person saying it not only didn't do anything wrong or foolish, the person did what would appear to be the right thing to do.

But, also notice how it does not define a period of time available to make the decision. It is prudent for anyone to do their due diligence and assess the pros and cons of a decision before making that decision. However, it has to be done in the time available, not the time someone wishes they had. Procrastinating until it is too late while telling yourself 'I need more time to decide' is a common reason given for 'missing an opportunity' or not doing something. But in fact the real reason the opportunity was missed was because the person FAILED to act in a TIMELY manner. 

In the TV series that is the topic of this thread, that is worth considering. Glenn has arbitrarily given himself 90 days to succeed in achieving his goal. Each step of the way, he is giving himself time constraints. Earn X in week one, Y in week 2, flip the house in 6 weeks, etc. He does not have unlimited time to sit and 'give it a lot of thought', he has a time limit and must act within that time limit.

In episode 3, we see him talking to one of his team. This team member has accepted the task of finding a BBQ master but after a week, has not yet done so. Glenn is not happy with that and it is obvious to the audience that this team member is just 'taking his time to get it right', not shirking the task. The sense of urgency and the understanding of just how little time is available is simply not there. Glenn blames HIMSELF for not having communicated the urgency. So Glenn has to communicate to this team member the urgency of the task. 'We need a BBQ master by this Friday, not next week. Can you do this or not?' He sets a time limit that must be met and now the team member understands what is required. 

In fact, the team member then meets that time limit. He most likely could have done it in the first week if told that was all the time he had to achieve it in, instead he did it in the second week simply because he didn't realize there was a time limit to meet in the beginning.

There is a saying, 'work expands to fill time available' and it is a very true saying. If you have a month to decide whether to invest in something or not, chances are you will not make your decision until that month expires. You can always find more due diligence you could do and assess. But if given a time limit of 1 week to make your decision, you will do as much due diligence as you can in that week and then you will have to make your decision. The funny thing about 'work expands to fill time available' though is that knowing you only have a week usually results in doing in a week MOST of what you would have done in a month anyway. When given a deadline most people tend to work, faster, smarter and more efficiently than if not given a deadline, it's as simple as that.

The team member tasked with finding a BBQ master showed just that. Some people don't need to have a fire lit under their butt to get them moving, others do. But most people are capable of a lot more than they think they are when they know what is expected of them and by WHEN.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

In our place, there are a lot of deadlines...homework, chores, tasks, negotiations, work, etc. You always have a choice as to when you’ll deal with them. Many people tend to leave things for the last moment however. In our place, I’ve always encouraged people to get the stuff done as soon as possible, this usually gives us much more time and allows us to look more efficient. If you leave something, it’s always there on your list, getting in the way of doing something else “yeah, I’d like to go to the game, but I’ve got an essay to write...”

If the essay were done right away, it’s not still sitting there on the to do list.

Same thing happens when I buy real estate, make a contract, or buy stock. I could always have some reason to wait, or I could just get the work done. When we negotiate a real estate deal, there are all sorts of things that have to be done. Things that can take days, but I gett hem done as soon as possible. Often we have a few weeks to close the deal, yet usually we are sitting around waiting for the time to run out. All the work was long done, the lawyer had the money, the inspections are done, the price negotiated...and we go off looking at a new one. 

Often, the marketing materials are started long before a contract is signed in my company. No point on waiting if you have an idea. Sure, this potentially could come back to hurt us, they may not sign the contract, but it’s never happened so far and being done early usually impresses the client. It also lets us get more done.

You can’t make any money off the stocks unless you buy them, you can analyze them for days, months or years, waiting to hit the bottom...and you’re just as likely to miss it as if you didn’t take the time. If you never buy, you’ll never lose money, but you’ll also never profit. 

Last year I was contemplating not buying any more real estate. I have a lot, have other interest, etc. I can easily come up with a number of reasons to stop...but then I would have missed out on 8 of the best deals I’d seen in decades. Even if they only made $1000/month I’d have lost out on $8000 of income (okay, $7000 since one is my son’s place). Of course, I wouldn’t have taken on any more “work” (little as it is since it’s plugged into my systems)...or some other excuse why passing up on the deals would be a good idea, but I can’t really come up with any others off the top of my head. Hard to come up with why passing up on thousands of dollars was a good idea.

Of course, as I said before, I do pass up on things that don’t fit my investment strategy. I didn’t buy Facebook for instance, still won’t. My philosophy is not to buy overvalued “fad” stocks. Since I’m a buy and hold investor, I don’t want to follow facebook and cash out when people realize that low income and no money don’t make good companies (I lived through the dot bomb days). Sure Ive missed out on making money.

I suppose the best excuse not to invest in things is to point out that you have no investment strategy and thus, by buying the duplex, it would have gone against that strategy.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Sounds like a very stressful lifestyle.

The guy who bought the house had a heart attack at a young age. Maybe it wasn't related to stress........or maybe it was.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Here’s a short version of a children’s tale which I often find sums up investing for most people...

The Fox & the Grapes

A Fox one day spied a beautiful bunch of ripe grapes hanging from a vine trained along the branches of a tree. The grapes seemed ready to burst with juice, and the Fox's mouth watered as he gazed longingly at them.

The bunch hung from a high branch, and the Fox had to jump for it. The first time he jumped he missed it by a long way. So he walked off a short distance and took a running leap at it, only to fall short once more. Again and again he tried, but in vain.

Now he sat down and looked at the grapes in disgust.

"What a fool I am," he said. "Here I am wearing myself out to get a bunch of sour grapes that are not worth gaping for."

And off he walked very, very scornfully.

There are many who pretend to despise and belittle that which is beyond their reach.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A leopard chases a monkey up a tree. Just as he gets close to the monkey, it jumps to another tree.

So the leopard goes down and climbs the other tree. Just as he gets close to the monkey, it jumps back to the first tree.

The leopard takes time to ponder the situation. He has to eat, so should he continue to expend all his energy chasing the monkey from tree to tree or move on ?

He moved on.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

No kewpie doll I'm afraid.
You were supposed to suggest the fox dig a strategically placed burrow, stand on the pile of dirt he created, and eat the grapes.
It's called 'out of the burrow' thinking


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Good thinking.......i vote you for PM. We need that kind of strategic thinking in Ottawa.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

TV network thinks it would be fun to do a show about a busted billionaire trying to build a business from scratch.

Lots of people watch, some pick up a few tips that may help them improve their own lives.

Sags watches, finds 10,000 reasons not to do anything.

That is what I call the creativity of the loser.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Nothing wrong with watching the show and picking up a a few tips.

There is something wrong with using the show as an example to make the claim anyone can pull themselves out of poverty if they simply try hard enough.

That attitude creates the false impression that poverty is self inflicted and predominated by lazy people who lack creativity.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

The show never claims that anyone can pull themselves out of poverty. Glenn is just trying to prove that he can be successful again starting with almost nothing and not using his name or contacts. After watching the show myself and many other posters can clearly see why he was successful. He may not create a million dollar business in 90 days but if that's the only thing that matters to you then you're missing out on why he became rich in the first place.

However, it is true that for SOME people, poverty is a direct result of their own actions. Some...but not all.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> No kewpie doll I'm afraid.
> You were supposed to suggest the fox dig a strategically placed burrow, stand on the pile of dirt he created, and eat the grapes.
> It's called 'out of the burrow' thinking


I’m not sure which is worse, someone who walks away with sour grapes, or someone who sees an easy solution and still won’t do anything. But, that’s only my opinion.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> There is something wrong with using the show as an example to make the claim anyone can pull themselves out of poverty if they simply try hard enough.


Where just EXACTLY where did you see anyone saying that sags? You can't just MAKE UP things to try and have something you think you can refute. No one said 'anyone' and nothing has ever been said in this thread or on the TV series about 'anyone can pull themselves out of poverty'. 

You are the only one who keeps saying, 'anyone', everyone else is saying SOME people, not ALL people. If you are going to just make stuff up to argue against, you are not going to gain any credibility as someone to be taken seriously and worth debating anything with. 

The show is about ONE Person attempting to show that it was not luck that got him where he is and that it is possible for that ONE person to replicate his success to a degree, in 90 days. It says nothing about 'anyone' can pull themselves out of poverty', you made that up. You keep trying to argue against something that no one is saying!

Why don't you try and argue against what people are saying, not what you make up.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I think this guy covers some of the bases.

_This entire show is kabuki theater -- the bonus of the theater is the drapes which are real ... Glenn's business advice.

And in my opinion, this "reality show" is NOT showing the average downtrodden American how to truly escape the rat race -- it might actually be proving the opposite. Can you imagine dozens of random people showing up in bars to sell stuff? Every street corner having cars for sale? Every parade filled with vendors? There are reasons why this stuff needs permits and/or permissions from private or public owners._

JAG would like this part.......Glenn gets a bank loan to flip a house.

_Wow. Tell me, where can I get a loan with a FAKE NAME, NO JOB, NO ASSETS, NO CREDIT and NO SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER? Sign me up! If he has this special knowledge, then he used "special knowledge" something which he wasn't supposed to do._

_As an entrepreneur who started off in similar straits just as the fake Glenn on this show, it just isn't realistic. And it's probably going to give a lot of false hope and false expectations to those folks who are still in the "try" mentality of entrepreneurship.

Yes, you can flip cars, sell scrap, work odds jobs, and hustle hard to set yourself off on the right foot and build from there... however I'm not buying any of the "TEAM" aspects of this show. None of it. Period. It merely exists due to the presence and pretense of the documentary ... fame, notoriety, free business PR, whatever... and when the "unpaid, risk taking" team angle falls apart, everything else after does as well. The most realistic aspect here is the hustle/arbitraging._

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/threads/undercover-billionaire-my-take-on-the-fake.90663/


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Sags, this show is entertainment, that's all. 
People plant themselves in front of the boob tube (or computer screen) and live vicariously through the life of a 'billionaire' for a while, that's all.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> I think this guy covers some of the bases.
> 
> _This entire show is kabuki theater -- the bonus of the theater is the drapes which are real ... Glenn's business advice.
> 
> ...


There you go again. You quote someone who thinks like you do apparently and makes the same ASSUMPTIONS in order to refute his own assumptions.

"And in my opinion, this "reality show" is NOT showing the average downtrodden American how to truly escape the rat race -- " Who other than the writer and you sags ever said it is supposed to be showing the average downtrodden American how to truly escape the rat race? It is showing what ONE person can do, not what ALL people can do. But arguing that not ALL people could do it is much easier to argue than trying to argue that NO ONE could do it, isn't it sags. 

What's more, this person you are quoting is simply another poster in another forum with no more credibility than yourself or anyone else. He is voicing his OPINION sags, that it agrees with yours does not make it any more worthy than the opinion of anyone else.

P.S.
And I have to add that anyone who vacations in Cabo San Lucas is probably not anyone I would give much credibility to in any case. Cabo is package tourist land after all, not jet-setter successful land.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I do wonder how he got a loan. That part of the show was obviously fixed but, it again isn’t implausible in a regular environment. If he was a real person, could he have gotten a loan? THe states has even more lenient lending programs than Canada does. They had Ninja mortgages, they had 110% lending, they had no interest in the first half of the term mortgages, no idea of what silly programs they have down there.

Remember, he was presented as a former successful business guy who just beat Cancer, not a homeless bum who’s begging for UBI.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> I do wonder how he got a loan. That part of the show was obviously fixed but, it again isn’t implausible in a regular environment. If he was a real person, could he have gotten a loan? THe states has even more lenient lending programs than Canada does. They had Ninja mortgages, they had 110% lending, they had no interest in the first half of the term mortgages, no idea of what silly programs they have down there.
> 
> Remember, he was presented as a former successful business guy who just beat Cancer, not a homeless bum who’s begging for UBI.


I took it that as a 'construction loan' that meant the loan was based on the equity of the house and the funds loaned are going to go into the house renovation, so there is no real risk to the lender. He does have a name and an address and he did have the cash to put a down payment on the house. So a lender's due diligence might be pretty simple under those circumstances. They might even limit the 'loan' to their making direct payments to contractors who presented invoices for work done on the property. Also keep in mind the previous 'selling price' of the house which was something like $2500 suggesting it was a repossession for taxes perhaps. Then presumably, the municipality's bank takes on the selling of it for them. So they sold something they got for $O outlay, to Glenn for $45k Giving him a $10k loan in whatever form to renovate it is hardly likely to result in them losing any money no matter what happens. They have NO money in it other than the $10k and if he doesn't do well selling it, they can always take it back if he doesn't make payments and sell it to someone else for $45k or more.

We also do not know just how much of a 'cover identity' he has been provided with. Why assume he isn't just using one of the production team's SS number and credit history for example. Being presented as a former successful business guy does mean some kind of back history has to be available if anyone starts to look for it. 

But whether it is 'fixed' or not to make it possible for him, has no bearing at all on whether or not it would be possible for the average person with a half decent credit history to be able to do it and that is the premise we have to go on. Could you or I or anyone else here on this forum get a loan for $10k to renovate a property. I say yes, most could at least.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

So in last night's episode there were some ups and downs but it ended on a relative high note.

The lease deal he had arranged for a restaurant downtown fell through when the owner decided he wanted to continue operating the restaurant as is rather than lease it out. That meant they would not be able to meet their Memorial Day opening date.

The house renovation finally got finished but he had to hire in some extra help to get it done so that added to the costs. He did manage to sell it though but not at the price he had hoped for of $80-85k. He sold it for $75k and still made a clear $20k profit. Enough to keep going on the next steps, the BBQ competition and opening the restaurant.

He managed to find another restaurant to lease but it will need a bit more interior work than the first one would have. The outside of this new place is painted PINK. Not hard to guess what the woman who handled the house reno and will do the design work for the restaurant thought of that. LOL She's become a bit disheartened and Glenn is having to work hard at keeping her on board.

He had to tell the guy put in charge of Social Media that instead of waiting to be told what to do, he needed to initiate doing what needed done. Looks like that is now on track.

The metal fabrication guy found a farmer who had a big steel tank he wanted to get rid of and that has been made into a huge smoker. It's ready to go.

Glenn hired a 'consultant' who knows all about BBQ competitions to advise them on what they need to do and how to proceed with the BBQ competition. So that's looking on track as well.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Just a Guy said:


> I do wonder how he got a loan. That part of the show was obviously fixed but, it again isn’t implausible in a regular environment. If he was a real person, could he have gotten a loan? THe states has even more lenient lending programs than Canada does. They had Ninja mortgages, they had 110% lending, they had no interest in the first half of the term mortgages, no idea of what silly programs they have down there.
> 
> Remember, he was presented as a former successful business guy who just beat Cancer, not a homeless bum who’s begging for UBI.


 It is not a regular environment we are very close to an historical bubble top which is the easiest time to get a loan. After the markets drop 70 - 90% it will be a lot tougher to get a loan.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Another update.

In last night's episode, they continued to move forward but the stress levels also continued to grow. They are now preparing for the BBQ Fest using money from the flipping of the house. Several problem's come up that stress various members of the team. The guy actually constructing their smoker is working all out but at the same time some of his work from other customers is backing up. Glenn inadvertently sends an e-mail to him and signs it with his real name which leads to a confrontation between them where Glenn has to come clean on the real story and his reasons for using an alias. It ends well however once he explains it and the team member agrees to keep the secret for the few weeks remaining.

On the day before the BBQ Fest, they are scrambling to get their booth set up and ready to go. First the tent doesn't arrive on time and then they find that all the meat has arrived but is frozen solid. There isn't enough time for it to defrost before going into the smoker. However, before they find this out, Glenn has done his thing again of making friends out of competitors. He tells the competitor set up next to them that they are newbies and would appreciate any tips or help they can give them. When the problem of frozen meat then comes up, he is able to ask them to trade them a couple of boxes of defrosted meat for frozen meat. This will get the meat into the smoker in time to start serving the next day (smoking requires meat to be in the smoker up to 12 hours before you start serving it). They have to hope that some of the frozen meat will be defrosted then in time to continue on later in the first day.

Work on the restaurant is going to depend on the money raised at the BBQ Fest to fund it, so it is vital that they do well in sales at the BBQ Fest. Glenn hopes to sell up to $25k of food. A good sales number will also be important to helping get a higher valuation for the business when the time for that comes. At the end of the episode what strikes me is how the stress is affecting the various team members and how hard Glenn is working to hold them together.

The next episode is obviously going to be about how they do at the BBQ Fest and getting the restaurant ready to open.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

...which bachelor is left on the island?....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

We surely won't want to miss the upcoming episode of *Anne with an E* then.

Anne (with an E) goes to the *BBQ Fest* at the local fair! But everyone there is quite stressed because what started out as a pleasant sunny fall day begins to look like it is going to end in a colossal storm. 

Anne (with an E) decides to go on the ferris wheel anyway. But she is seated with a mysterious stranger who turns out to be - you guessed it - the undercover billionaire! In spite of the 'creds' of her impressive co-rider, Anne (with an E) takes a swipe at him when he makes an inappropriate comment about the colour of her hair. As he tries to dodge the blow he falls out of the ferris wheel seat and plunges to the ground below.

But fortunately(?) his fall is broken by the canvas of the BBQ Fest tent directly below the ferris wheel. Still, his momentum carries him through the torn canvas and into a large vat of his own BBQ sauce (vat= container, not value added tax). Fortunately(?) the sauce had been frozen and is not too hot yet despite their frantic efforts to thaw it in time for the taste testing and awarding of the coveted blue ribbon. 

Anne (with an E) is terribly distraught of course and is quickly let off of the ferris wheel to run directly into the BBQ Fest tent to see what homicidal havoc she has wrought. She enters the tent and looks toward the vat of BBQ sauce. There sits the undercover billionaire, wiping his face, while his hair is bright red, saggy mop.

Anne (with an E) begins to laugh and the undercover-undersauce billionaire joins in, adding that he didn't know being a redhead could be so exciting!

Of course this is reality TV, so we will have to wait for the next episode to find out who wins the blue ribbon, and see if Anne (with an E) apologizes to the undercover billionaire with a spicy kiss or not. :couple_inlove:


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I would be curious to know if the direct competitor that gave the undercover billionaire their fresh meat so that he could sell $25,000 worth of product in the stall right next door to them.......are still in business.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

But then I think maybe it is all legit.

The film crew and advance team have to eat, so maybe they went to the competitor and bought say boxes of raw ribs and told the vendor not to cook them.

Just give us boxes of the raw meat, they might have said.

I am also thinking that a full accounting of the expenditures of the documentary crew might reveal some interesting information.

Anyone know where such an accounting would exist ?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> I would be curious to know if the direct competitor that gave the undercover billionaire their fresh meat so that he could sell $25,000 worth of product in the stall right next door to them.......are still in business.


Oh come on sags, why do you have to try so hard to find something to hang your hat on. They traded 2 boxes of meat to let them have some to start with while waiting for the rest to defrost. It's called being a good neighbour, that's all. It will not affect how much is sold by either party overall. That is entirely dependent on the public who are buying and how good each is at cooking the food they serve.

Are they still in business, that's a ridiculous comment to make. Trading 2 boxes of meat will have NO affect whatsoever on the answer to that question.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

I can't see how a business that isn't even open yet, in a rented space, can hope to achieve a million dollar valuation from doing a bbq ribfest, with 10 days to the deadline.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> We surely won't want to miss the upcoming episode of *Anne with an E* then.
> ...
> coveted blue ribbon.


Anne with an E takes place in Canada - that coveted ribbon would be red, not blue


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ I'm only stepping my toe in this thread to ask OMO - by chance are you an author? I love your post #391 and can't help stop :highly_amused: :highly_amused: :highly_amused: as the Easterner in the post #390 just before you.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mechanic said:


> I can't see how a business that isn't even open yet, in a rented space, can hope to achieve a million dollar valuation from doing a bbq ribfest, with 10 days to the deadline.


The business will be open before the valuation is done Mechanic. Besides that, you need to understand how a value is calculated and there are various methods for doing that. The Ribfest is important since it will show a couple of things to a potential investor. One, how much market for the product there is, who the market is and any awards from the Ribfest will speak to the quality of the product. In other words, a restaurant with a lousy cook trying to sell to a high end market in a low income area will have less value than a restaurant with an award winning cook, selling a low priced menu to a low-medium income area. Which is this BBQ business do you think? Also keep in mind that besides the restaurant, the intent is to also sell products like t-shirts and rubs both on site and online. Then besides the food sales, there are the beer sales to consider as well. How strong and experienced are the management and staff of a business also affect the value of the business. There are a lot of factors to consider in other words, not just physical assets and sales history.
https://pos.toasttab.com/blog/how-to-value-a-restaurant-business-and-its-worth

I am not a business valuation specialist but such people do exist and presumably that is who will be used to determine a valuation. 
https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/careers/jobs/business-valuation-specialist/

Whether he will be able to achieve a $1 mil valuation or not is still to be seen but keep in mind the forest as opposed to getting hung up on individual trees. He started with $100 and whatever valuation he ends up with is likely to be more than that. What he is trying to show is that SOME people can succeed in starting a business and that it is not down to 'luck' which he makes clear he has heard in regards to his previous success, more than once. Don't get hung up on the $1 mil valuation. That is not the objective of the exercise, it is only a way of measuring the success of the exercise. If the valuation is only half a mil, would you say he did not prove it is possible to start a successful business starting from nothing and that it is not LUCK? He gave himself the arbitrary goal of $1 mil. It is not a worldwide recognized measure of whether or not a business is successful, it's just a goal he chose to aim for.

What I think matters is, for an individual thinking of starting a business, what can they learn from watching this series? I would say that they can learn a great deal. What can naysayers learn from watching this series? That answer is easy, nothing.

It is a reality show and as such it is intended by the producers of the show to be entertaining but what their goal is and what Glenn Stearns goal is are different things and just happen to be compatible. Some can watch it just for entertainment and some can watch and learn from it. Some people here keep trying to suggest it can only be one or the other which is rather stupid and naive in my opinion.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If the undercover billionaire had gotten a job as a dishwasher in a restaurant he would have earned more than his BBQ place will be worth.

Franchises with nationally branded food companies located in rental space don't achieve a $1 million dollar valuation.

Without the building included, this "business" alone is worth less than the cost to remove the equipment and clean out the space.


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> We surely won't want to miss the upcoming episode of *Anne with an E* then.
> 
> Anne (with an E) goes to the *BBQ Fest* at the local fair! But everyone there is quite stressed because what started out as a pleasant sunny fall day begins to look like it is going to end in a colossal storm.
> 
> ...



The preview of next weeks episode showed Christine getting totally stressed, tossing her tongs at someone and stomping off the set. 

Glenn will be totally smitten with Anne (with an E) but she will fall in lust with "bad-boy" AJ. AJ will hire Anne (with an E) to replace Christine as Pitmaster. Glenn will be heartbroken, but the social media frenzy caused by Anne (with an E) hooking up with AJ will boost sales and drive the business value through the roof, getting Glenn his million dollar valuation.


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## ludetuner (Dec 28, 2016)

Mechanic said:


> I can't see how a business that isn't even open yet, in a rented space, can hope to achieve a million dollar valuation from doing a bbq ribfest, with 10 days to the deadline.


As others have said, there are multiple ways to determine business value and since this is for TV, will likely base it on multiple of revenue. If they do and based on what they sold in four days at their rib fest, might not be too far from $1MM (especially considering they will be able to sell alcohol). 

Now, if they do it based on multiple of earnings or a DCF model, highly unlikely they would get to a million considering they aren’t a proven business yet and difficult to get an average run rate based on a couple months sales of a new business.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

So last night was the episode in which they sold at the Ribfest and despite continually running out of product, they still managed to sell $21k over the 4 days. That money will be used to get the restaurant ready to open. Not only did they do quite well at the Ribfest, they also won two awards. Best Junior Ribs and Best Ribs (in a tie) which means they will be able to open as an 'award winning' BBQ Restaurant. Next week is the final episode.

Ludetuner is correct in the assessment of how the valuation might be done. All I will add is that given the point at which a valuator is being asked to value the business, the only likely way to do so will be based on multiple of revenue. There just won't be enough data to do it based on earnings.

Given the kind of sales I saw at the ribfest in terms of an average sale per person, I would expect the restaurant to be getting somewhere between $15-20 per person once open. If you take as a possible scenario, the model shown for 'Casual Dining' as shown here: https://blog.projectionhub.com/4-financial-projection-models-for-the-4-restaurant-styles/
you will see a potential of $3,680 per day in sales. At the Ribfest they did between that and $8k per day with no beer sales. That $3680 works out to $103k per month.

If you look at how a 'multiple of revenue' valuation is reached here: https://www.divestopedia.com/definition/6613/multiple-of-revenue You will see that by working backwards, if you want to have a valuation of $1mil based on sales of $1.2 million per year ($103K x 12 months), you are only looking at a multiple of ONE. Based on sales at the Ribfest, as ludetuner says, it is not at all unrealistic for the valuation to reach $1 mil even if you are more conservative with the numbers.

Also, bear in mind that the valuation of a restaurant is not the same thing as the selling price of a restaurant. So a restaurant valued at $1 million might sell for as little as say $150k. I'm not going to go into that in any detail but I just bring it up because I am sure some people will think the valuation and a potential selling price are one and the same. They are not.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> So last night was the episode in which they sold at the Ribfest and despite continually running out of product, they still managed to sell $21k over the 4 days. That money will be used to get the restaurant ready to open. Not only did they do quite well at the Ribfest, they also won two awards. Best Junior Ribs and Best Ribs (in a tie) which means they will be able to open as an 'award winning' BBQ Restaurant. Next week is the final episode.
> 
> Ludetuner is correct in the assessment of how the valuation might be done. All I will add is that given the point at which a valuator is being asked to value the business, the only likely way to do so will be based on multiple of revenue. There just won't be enough data to do it based on earnings.
> 
> ...


While it is true that is one way of calculating the value, the problem is that there is a lot of assumptions being used on it. Trying to equate the sales at an event like Ribfest to sales at a sit-down restaurant or diner is not really a realistic proposition. For one thing, people who go to these type of "fests" do not necessarily translate into future customers at the restaurant. Same goes with the actual sales and what people would buy. I could just imagine someone doing something like this and then going to someplace like Shark Tank or Dragon's Den to get funds to open a restaurant. I'm sure they would reject out of hand a valuation based on performance at Ribfest.


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## ludetuner (Dec 28, 2016)

bgc_fan said:


> Longtimeago said:
> 
> 
> > So last night was the episode in which they sold at the Ribfest and despite continually running out of product, they still managed to sell $21k over the 4 days. That money will be used to get the restaurant ready to open. Not only did they do quite well at the Ribfest, they also won two awards. Best Junior Ribs and Best Ribs (in a tie) which means they will be able to open as an 'award winning' BBQ Restaurant. Next week is the final episode.
> ...


I think the main factor here is that they are part of a TV show and they can’t really drag it on for a year or so to better determine actual annual sales or earnings. 

Also, the hospitality business and restaurants in particular are very difficult to put a value on in the first couple of years since it could just be a fad as consumer tastes change often (heck, the restaurant may turn into a tourist attraction because of the show, which could open additional revenue streams including merchandise sales) 

Ultimately, if a “Dragon” or “shark” or any investor is putting a value on a business, it is typically based on earnings or a discounted cash flow model (something they don’t have the luxury of doing on a TV show)


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

bgc_fan said:


> While it is true that is one way of calculating the value, the problem is that there is a lot of assumptions being used on it. Trying to equate the sales at an event like Ribfest to sales at a sit-down restaurant or diner is not really a realistic proposition. For one thing, people who go to these type of "fests" do not necessarily translate into future customers at the restaurant. Same goes with the actual sales and what people would buy. I could just imagine someone doing something like this and then going to someplace like Shark Tank or Dragon's Den to get funds to open a restaurant. I'm sure they would reject out of hand a valuation based on performance at Ribfest.


I understand what you are saying and do not disagree with it really. But a valuator is being asked to put a value on it and so that is the bottom line. So if YOU were the valuator and you were told 'put a value on it', then you would have to come up with a number. If we can presume the valuator is not being paid to give a biased answer to suit the show but is in fact giving an honest valuation to the best of his ability, based on the information he has available to him to consider, then we have to accept that do we not?

A note re Shark Tank and Dragon's Den. You see them asking for sales to date, earnings to date and anticipated growth numbers for both. They generally only invest in a business that is up and running, which is why you often here then say something like, 'come back when you have some numbers to show us'. Going to them with an 'idea' and nothing else, rarely works. They tend to use a multiplier based on earnings to value a business. I'm sure they would reject it as you say, so what? That has nothing to do with a value having to be made by the valuator when a valuation based on earnings cannot be done. He still has to come up with a valuation. 

A revenue valuation can be done before a restaurant even opens! It is done based on number seats, anticipated number of 'turns' and anticipated average sale per seat x turns x days. The links I gave show quite clearly how it is done. Anything can be valued, the only question is whether they get the value right or not and the answer to that is an unknown until farther down the road.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

So I have just watched the final episode and it did not disappoint.

Glenn came clean and told everyone who he really was and what he had been trying to do, prove success was not just luck by starting a successful business in just 90 days. The restaurant opened on day 90 as planned. 

He then met with each person who had put in work along the way and paid them for their work with checks for as much as $25k. At first I thought to myself, huh, that's not so much but then he made a comment that made sense to me. 'You don't give people a hand-out, you give them a hand up'. That's what he did and when one person said, 'I can't take this, he said, 'You earned it, you aren't just taking it.' Then I thought, yes, they earned what they were paid and will now continue to earn what they are paid. They aren't getting any 'hand-outs' at all.

He also gave a cheque for $10k to a food kitchen where he volunteered and in return was fed a meal during his first week when he had just $100 to work with. He also started a Foundation which will help budding entrepreneurs in Erie. Two members of the core team who have their own businesses and so were not interested in going into the Underdog business, will be members of that Foundation along with the local Small Business Center. He seeded that Foundation with $50k and a portion of the profits from Underdog will go to continue that Foundation. 

The valuation was done and the valuator came in with a number of $750k. He said it could be somewhere between $500k and $I mil so he split it down the middle at $750k. Glenn was happy with that saying well maybe his goal of $1 mil in 90 days was just too ambitious. As he had said he would, he then put $1 mil of his own money into the business giving it a value of $1.75 million with $1 mil of that being in cash to grow the business with from day 1.

At the end they showed a clip from 60 days later. The two 10% owners charged with running the business were happy to say that business was good and that they were now employing between 40-50 people in the restaurant. That is obviously important in a city where jobs are scarce, it's win for Erie. And as we know from a quick Google, a year later it still seems to be going strong. They have 3 lines of revenue as planned. The restaurant for food and beverage sales, the sauces and apparel for online sales and their own beer to sell outside of the restaurant even to the national level. Glenn was even talking about taking the model and franchising nationally. 

So what did I take from the whole series. Well, some of it may have had to be contrived to fit TV and his anonymity (it's hard to figure how he could have got a checking account and check book with no ID for example) but I honestly think that he did show it was not luck and that it was indeed possible for SOMEONE, not everyone, to build a team and a business starting from $100 and in a shorter time frame than pretty much anyone would believe was possible. It was never a 'get rich quick' scheme, it was logical steps all the way with realistic goals at each step which then provided the capital to finance the next step.


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## ludetuner (Dec 28, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> So I have just watched the final episode and it did not disappoint.
> 
> Glenn came clean and told everyone who he really was and what he had been trying to do, prove success was not just luck by starting a successful business in just 90 days. The restaurant opened on day 90 as planned.
> 
> ...


I agree, a great finale to the show and despite the fact some of the parts of the show probably had to be modified for TV, I think the whole premise was that it is possible to build a business with grit and a good team (which they proved)


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The reviews and pictures are on Yelp and people can make up their own mind.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/underdog-bbq-erie


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> The reviews and pictures are on Yelp and people can make up their own mind.
> 
> https://www.yelp.com/biz/underdog-bbq-erie


What will the reviews and pictures tell anyone about the premise of the show and what it proved sags? Nothing that I can think of anyway.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Not that it really matters, but you can get an appraiser to say anything. What matters is whether investors value it at a certain level (money talks). I struggle to believe that a house converted on the cheap to a restaurant in a depressed town is worth $1M.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> Not that it really matters, but you can get an appraiser to say anything. What matters is whether investors value it at a certain level (money talks). I struggle to believe that a house converted on the cheap to a restaurant in a depressed town is worth $1M.


I take it you did not watch the show andrewf. It was not a 'house converted on the cheap', it was a restaurant with a parking lot and that is what it still is. 

But what does any of that matter to the premise of the series? He started with $100 and in 90 days managed to grow that to a successful business. At 60 days in, they were employing 40-50 people. Try arguing against that fact. 

There are people here who believe that because they cannot conceive of themselves being able to do something, that no one could do something they couldn't. They're wrong, some people can and the series shows it having been done. 

Don't forget, he did not do this on his own. He had a team and THEY made it happen as much as he did. I don't doubt for a second that in fact they could have done it without him if they had gotten together and decided to start a business. His talent lay in being able to bring them together and get them to buy in to TRYING.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I’d be willing to bet that the the rest of the team would never have been able to do it. They need the person with the vision and the drive to bring them together. How many times were they caught sitting around waiting for something to happen.

I find the same thing on this board all the time. Many think I lie about the properties I find because they don’t even bother to look. If i put up an example, they look for reasons not to follow up. There aren’t many people who can actually accomplish anything on their own.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

No, did not watch due to:
-cord cutter
-not inclined to try to pirate
-not terribly interested

I glanced at some of the yelp reviews, that indicated it was a converted house. Honestly, I don't care. I think it is relevant to consider what it takes for a restaurant in, say, the GTA suburbs to be worth $1M. Restaurant trade is pretty fickle, and buying a place on the back of a few weeks of sales at a high multiple of revenues doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

I should just not bother with this thread. There are some people who are inordinately invested in this show. It is harmless fun, I guess, but it is heavy on the "reality". After all, at the rate he's going, in another 90 days he should have $10B, and another 90 days $100 quadrillion.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> I’d be willing to bet that the the rest of the team would never have been able to do it. They need the person with the vision and the drive to bring them together. How many times were they caught sitting around waiting for something to happen.
> 
> I find the same thing on this board all the time. Many think I lie about the properties I find because they don’t even bother to look. If i put up an example, they look for reasons not to follow up. There aren’t many people who can actually accomplish anything on their own.


Actually, 3 of the original team already had/have their own businesses up and running. That's why 2 of them declined any further involvement in Underdog, they chose to pursue their own passions/businesses. In fact, one member put it just that way, 'a BBQ business is not my passion.'

The third member has a screen printing business and he agreed to take on the online portion of Underdog selling apparel (what he was already doing) and adding rubs and sauces. So really it is just a question of adding a second separate website for Underdog and marketing their products online in the same kind of way he was already doing his online screen printing part of his existing business.

What it is absolutely true to say though is that SOMEONE has to have the vision and drive to make it happen. Someone has to believe it is possible and START.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> No, did not watch due to:
> -cord cutter
> -not inclined to try to pirate
> -not terribly interested
> ...


I don't know if there was a house there originally or not andrewf, but it was an up and running restaurant before he bought it. There's a large parking lot and outdoor patio/deck seating area etc. Not your typical house lot certainly. There was already a bar (no real changes needed) and full restaurant kitchen area etc. So there wasn't any house converted on the cheap to a restaurant as your earlier comment suggested that's all.

As for the value, as I noted earlier, don't confuse the 'valuation' of a business with the 'selling price' of a business. A business may be valued at $1mil and sell for $150k for example. Put simply, valuation is based on what you can expect to get OUT of a business in sales as well as any hard assets. Selling price is based primarily on hard assets with some allowance made for 'good will' (expected income). So the importance of assets vs. sales is reversed in one vs. the other. This makes sense if you consider when you buy a business, you are not going to pay someone for future sales profits. You expect to keep those profits, not hand them over to the seller and make nothing until after you have passed that number.

As for billions and quadrillions, that is not reality andrewf, but reality is that if a business is employing 40+ people after 60 days of operation as this one was, then it is pretty hard to deny that it is succeeding don't you think? 

I understand your point re some being 'invested' as you put it but the question I would put to you is what do you see some being invested in? I am invested in the idea that it is possible for SOME people to start from scratch and build a successful business in a relatively short period of time and more importantly show that INVESTING in such a venture is an ALTERNATIVE to investing your money in other ways. Too many regulars in this forum as I have said before, do not want to admit such a possibility exists. They are 'invested' in denying such a possibility and IF someone comes to this forum saying, 'I'm thinking about starting a business', they will immediately shoot down the idea with all kinds of excuses for why it is a bad idea and cannot be done. Instead they suggest the only way to invest your money is in stocks, bonds, GICs etc. THOSE are the people who are really 'invested' in this thread andrewf. They are invested in saying, 'no, no, it cannot be done. Get a job with a salary and put your savings into stocks etc.'

P.S. Just take another look at the thread I started some months back on alternative means of investment and how it was responded to. All kinds of excuses for why it was NOT a good idea for anyone to want to try doing that.
https://www.canadianmoneyforum.com/...sting-in-anything-other-than-stocks-bonds-etc


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> If the undercover billionaire had gotten a job as a dishwasher in a restaurant he would have earned more than his BBQ place will be worth.
> 
> Franchises with nationally branded food companies located in rental space don't achieve a $1 million dollar valuation.
> 
> Without the building included, this "business" alone is worth less than the cost to remove the equipment and clean out the space.


And...you're wrong again!!

People like Glenn make it happen. People like you rely on people like Glenn to create a business so you can have a job. And if they're successful and make millions then you whine and complain about income inequity and how unfair it is.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

andrewf said:


> Not that it really matters, but you can get an appraiser to say anything. What matters is whether investors value it at a certain level (money talks). I struggle to believe that a house converted on the cheap to a restaurant in a depressed town is worth $1M.


You didn't watch the show but you can't stop making inaccurate assumptions about it. Awesome :biggrin:


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A $750,000 valuation for a new, unproven business in a rented property ? I think not.

https://www.bizbuysell.com/Business...tYW5kLWZvb2QtYnVzaW5lc3Nlcy1mb3Itc2FsZSUyZg==

A successful 17 year old Subway franchise and owned building for $215,000 for comparison.

Other buildings for comparison on the website as well.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Caught the end of the last episode and something that sums up the entire show...

How was he able to create all his companies and success? His answer...

don’t make excuses.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> A $750,000 valuation for a new, unproven business in a rented property ? I think not.
> 
> https://www.bizbuysell.com/Business...tYW5kLWZvb2QtYnVzaW5lc3Nlcy1mb3Itc2FsZSUyZg==
> 
> ...


Lol...now you're comparing a $5 sandwich restaurant to a full sit down restaurant with a liquor license to try to prove your point. Not only do you make excuses why people can't succeed, when they do you succeed you then make unfair comparisons to try to prove your point.

The valuator said it was worth $500k - $1 million. He was evaluating a rib restaurant that won 1st place award in a renowned competition that also had a liquor license. It's not a Subway.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I expect the price point per customer for a BBQ restaurant with a liquor liccense to be significantly higher than a subway. If you said they make, on average $20/person over $5/person that would make the business around 4x more valuable. 

4 x $215k is...

Not to mention on-line sales of rubs, spices and merchandise...

Not to mention a national beer brand...

Or to mention international media exposure on a tv show.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> A $750,000 valuation for a new, unproven business in a rented property ? I think not.
> 
> https://www.bizbuysell.com/Business...tYW5kLWZvb2QtYnVzaW5lc3Nlcy1mb3Itc2FsZSUyZg==
> 
> ...


Keep trying sags, you'll convince yourself that you're right yet again.

I have already explained that a valuation is not the same thing as a selling price. Valuation is based on future business while a selling price is primarily based on existing assets. They can be worlds apart. 

You can lead a horse to water.................

It really did show just what can be accomplished by someone who wants to make it happen badly enough. "Winners never quit, and quitters never win." Vince Lombardi


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

People like Glenn will always find a way to succeed. He has the drive, the ability, and maybe most of all...the personality to attract key personal. He sold them on his dream and they all chipped in to make it work. It's irrelevent that the business was valued at less than $1 million...even it it was valued at less than a Subway (sags comparison) he proved that some people starting with almost nothing can make something of themselves.

Now imagine sags in the same position. sags has convinced him/herself that it's impossible so they wouldn't have even tried in the first place. Unable to buy food they would have applied for EI or welfare. Then they would have complained that the assistance they received didn't provide them with a proper standard of living and that the "rich" have to do more to help them.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

But Glenn would have had a dishwasher...one trying to unionize the restaurant of course.

Sags would never have earned the 10% ownership stakes he handed out.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> But Glenn would have had a dishwasher...one trying to unionize the restaurant of course.
> 
> Sags would never have earned the 10% ownership stakes he handed out.


Sags maybe would have applied as a dishwasher after the restaurant was up and running but would never have a greed to work for little or nothing when it was just a start up. And sags wouldn't have worked at Ribfest for no pay. Those are the people who were offered shares. sags wants a guaranteed job where someone else took the risk first.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Don't like the Subway comparison ? 

How about this business opportunity for $695,000.

Turn-key 4,240 ± SF restaurant/bar in downtown Erie's central business district near Gannon University, Warner Theater, Erie Playhouse, Velocity Net, Erie Insurance & more. Completely renovated in 2015 with a fully equipped kitchen & table seating for 64+ / bar seating for 17+. Sale includes real property, furniture, equipment, PA liquor license, DJ booth, dance floor & projector/screen. Additional 9,709 ± SF on second & third floors including two bedroom apartment. Tax incentives available including LERTA and PA Federal Opportunity Zones. Contact broker for additional information or to schedule a tour.

Detailed Information

Location:Erie, PA

Inventory:Included in asking price
Real Estate:Owned Building SF:13,949

Facilities:4,240 SF restaurant bar with fully equipped commercial kitchen & table seating for 64+/bar seating for 17+. Completely renovated in 2015.

Competitionroperty is located 1 block from Gannon University's metropolitan campus in the heart of downtown Erie's business district with multiple major employers within walking distance including Erie Insurance, Velocity Net & various companies at the multi-tenant Renaissance Centre next door as well as by multiple entertainment venues generating traffic including the Warner Theatre, UPMC Baseball Park, Erie Insurance Arena, Erie Playhouse and more. Property is located along the major public transportation corridor including a late night weekend service & a free downtown Cultural Loop bus service on Saturday evenings. Amidst the right number of bars for bar hopping and bar crawl events.

Growth & Expansion:Additional 9,709 SF on second & third floors including 2 bedroom apartment. Site qualifies for PA Federal Opportunity Zone capital improvement reduction/elimination program as well as LERTA.


https://www.bizbuysell.com/Business...yaWUtY291bnR5LWJ1c2luZXNzZXMtZm9yLXNhbGUlMmY=


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Every city or town has listings of businesses for sale and restaurant equipment auctions.

Businesses located in rented facilities aren't valued very highly.

A guy I knew sold his pizza restaurant in a high density plaza for $15,000. 

An estimate for the BBQ would probably be closer to $15,000 than $750,000


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> I expect the price point per customer for a BBQ restaurant with a liquor liccense to be significantly higher than a subway. If you said they make, on average $20/person over $5/person that would make the business around 4x more valuable.
> 
> 4 x $215k is...
> 
> ...


Except the Subway price includes the building and they would likely have far more customers throughout the day than a full restaurant.

Incidentally, the Underdog BBQ gets mixed reviews and was listed as "not busy" at 5.p.m. which is prime time for restaurants.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I am also curious about the claim of employing 40 plus people.

Given the small size of the restaurant and the limited hours that BBQ restaurants would attract diners...........why so many staff ?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Yes sags, you are right and the world is wrong again. You can ignore the difference between valuation vs selling price and amazingly can even provide a valuation that is more likely to be correct than that of a professional evaluator. You must amaze yourself with how good you are.

As for staff, I suppose that 60 days after opening when the 2 guys who are running the place said they were employing 40-50 staff, they must have just been outright lying about that right. I mean, you know better than they do obviously.

As a restaurant expert I guess you already know that if you have a bar for example the number of tables you can expect 1 wait staff to handle is less than if you don't have a bar. That for every front of house staff you need around 4 back of house staff. And of course you need whatever number you need, per shift. Even a 'fast food' restaurant like MickeyD's has 15-20 staff working in a day and they don't even have any 'front of house' staff at all!


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> Every city or town has listings of businesses for sale and restaurant equipment auctions.
> 
> Businesses located in rented facilities aren't valued very highly.
> 
> ...


So now you know more than a professional business evaluator....and the business people that you do know fail at pizza restaurants in high density locations. Pizza has one of the highest margins other than coffee, soft drinks, and fries.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

The average pizza place makes all the expenses in the first week, leaving 3 weeks of profits per month. That’s the average.

Then again, I’d bet sags could fail at anything.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Yes sags, you are right and the world is wrong again. You can ignore the difference between valuation vs selling price and amazingly can even provide a valuation that is more likely to be correct than that of a professional evaluator. You must amaze yourself with how good you are.
> 
> As for staff, I suppose that 60 days after opening when the 2 guys who are running the place said they were employing 40-50 staff, they must have just been outright lying about that right. I mean, you know better than they do obviously.
> 
> As a restaurant expert I guess you already know that if you have a bar for example the number of tables you can expect 1 wait staff to handle is less than if you don't have a bar. That for every front of house staff you need around 4 back of house staff. And of course you need whatever number you need, per shift. Even a 'fast food' restaurant like MickeyD's has 15-20 staff working in a day and they don't even have any 'front of house' staff at all!


You understand that this is 'reality' tv and not reality, right? Producers are quite capable of finding someone to put a notional value on a business that suits their narrative.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Well I kind of agree with sags on the value issue. I'm trying to justify a 750,000 value and can't quite make it when it has no track record of revenues and profit.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I pulled this right off of a business evaluator’s website...



> Use earnings multiples. A more relevant measure is probably a multiple of the company’s earnings, or the price-to-earnings (P/E) ratio. Estimate the earnings of the company for the next few years. If a typical P/E ratio is 15 and the projected earnings are $200,000 a year, the business would be worth $3 million.


Projected revenues for the bbq place were probably similar, so it may even have been a low evaluation...

But I’m sure the dishwashers here know better.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Just a Guy said:


> I pulled this right off of a business evaluator’s website...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Projections based on one day are reliable for you, so take their word for it, don't think twice just fly down and make an offer. Its your big chance to have NA wide franchise operation.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Gee, I guess you can’t tell a good restaurant from a bad one. Quality of food is really hard, especially when it wins awards. Obviously doomed to failure. A liquor license alone is worth $200k in revenues in most cases. Then again, I was never a dishwasher, I just know restaurant owners and businessmen who do this type of thing.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

When I use Yelp I never read any review unless the reviewer has more than 20 posts. I think their BBQ must be OK by that standard. At any rate that town has 40 more jobs...a lot better than JT has produced in our province.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Just a Guy said:


> Gee, I guess you can’t tell a good restaurant from a bad one. Quality of food is really hard, especially when it wins awards. Obviously doomed to failure. A liquor license alone is worth $200k in revenues in most cases. Then again, I was never a dishwasher, I just know restaurant owners and businessmen who do this type of thing.


You're funny. Sags, the resident commie, and self proclaimed climate scientist rarely has a good point. But when he does, you can't admit it. Why is the downtown restaurant with land and buiding included and a track record asking 695,000 but the rib place with one day of sales, and rented worth 750,000? 

You never addressed his question. I can't answer his question. You can't either.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

What’s his good point? He’s on my ignore list. Is he suddenly a business expert?

If your question is why a place is asking 695k be a rib place valued at 759k, I suggest you should read the thread, LTA already answered that. There is a difference between a sellin price and a business valuation. Really hard concept to understand I see. 

They have merchandise, rubs, sauces, a private label beer going national and a restaurant with franchise potential and award winning product. 

The fact that you can’t see value shows you’ve never owned a business, or read that quote on how businesses are valued. 

To compare, a franchise for Tim Hortons is over $450k. That’s the fee, before the restaurant, location or products. How is a contract worth 450k? Yet they sell like crazy.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Selling prices are real and business valuations are made up?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

And TH franchise fees are not completely unjustified. $400k to access the accumulated goodwill of a national coffee & donut institution in Canada, or $750k for the goodwill of a no-history BBQ restaurant that was on a show? And I don't think any value attributable to the fact the restaurant was televised is relevant for the premise of the show. Otherwise mr billionaire could have just sold ad space for 13 weeks and netted his million.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

A valuation is what a company is worth including earning potential. When you buy a business you don’t get paid for future income. If you read the quote about how valuation is done it’s a multiple of income. When you sell you don’t pay that. But maybe if people keep repeating this enough...

Gather none of you have ever gotten a business loan from a bank, you definitely don’t understand valuation. 

As for timmies, my buddy buys failed ones all the time and turns them around. Goodwill of a national brand means nothing if you’re incompetent. 

Funny how people who didn’t even watch the show are such experts on it.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Just a Guy said:


> A valuation is what a company is worth including earning potential. When you buy a business you don’t get paid for future income. If you read the quote about how valuation is done it’s a multiple of income. When you sell you don’t pay that. But maybe if people keep repeating this enough...
> 
> Gather none of you have ever gotten a business loan from a bank, you definitely don’t understand valuation.
> 
> ...


1) The buyer doesn't get paid for future income. I'm not sure what that means. 
2) When I watched the show, appraiser sat down with Glen and told him it is difficult to evaluate based on one day of earnings. 
3) Valuation is done as a multiple of earnings. Yes, most of us here know about p/e ratios. That's part of valuation usually. Only one doesn't really know the p/e based on one day of earnings. So the valuation is dodgy.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Which probably explains why there was a half million dollar margin he was considering...

You also missed the projected earnings part of the quote.

Oh, and since you can’t figure it out, it wasn’t the buyer, it’s the seller who doesn’t get paid. For someone who claims to be knowledgeable, you really seem to need things spelled out for you.

Anyways, this seems like another one of your pointless debates, arguing to argue, so let’s end it here.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Applying the same valuation metrics to a hot dog stand on Bay Street in Toronto, where thousands of potential hot dog eaters pass by each day........would value it in multiples of millions.

Some people who claim superior knowledge of business, should spend more time watching the business news and learning.

Today on CNBC, there was a real estate fund manager from NYC on as a guest. He was saying how strict a regiment they have for valuations because it is the difference between success and failure.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Pluto said:


> 1) The buyer doesn't get paid for future income. I'm not sure what that means.
> 2) When I watched the show, appraiser sat down with Glen and told him it is difficult to evaluate based on one day of earnings.
> 3) Valuation is done as a multiple of earnings. Yes, most of us here know about p/e ratios. That's part of valuation usually. Only one doesn't really know the p/e based on one day of earnings. So the valuation is dodgy.


It really does seem that some people are having a hard time understanding that 'valuation' and 'selling price' are two entirely different things. A valuation is given based on projected business. If enough history doesn't exist to do a valuation based on P/E, then the valuator has no alternative but to do a valuation based on sales to date. Even if a business hasn't even opened yet, a valuator can and will do a valuation based on ANTICIPATED sales and earnings. That's what happened in this case and why the valuator quoted such a wide range. ie. $500k to $1 Mil. 

None of that has anything to do with what a business will sell for. A business may sell for more or less than the valuation number. Some here are talking about valuation in one sentence and selling price in the next sentence or even in the same sentence, as if they were SYNONYMOUS, which they are not. Since this particular business is not for sale, selling prices are irrelevant. The only area that can be discussed is valuation.

Now Pluto, it is your choice to have the opinion that the valuation given 'is dodgy'. We are all able to have an individual opinion. However, it was valued by a valuator and the value he put on it CANNOT be questioned can it? I mean, it is a FACT that he gave it a value of $750k. You are free to question his number but in doing so you realize that you are saying YOU are more capable of determining a value than he as a professional valuator is.

So, do you really want to argue that you know better than he does? In Canada, the CBV Institute is the regulating body for gaining certification as a Valuator. You can read more here: https://cbvinstitute.com Again, do you wan to argue that you know better than a certified professional?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> Applying the same valuation metrics to a hot dog stand on Bay Street in Toronto, where thousands of potential hot dog eaters pass by each day........would value it in multiples of millions.
> 
> Some people who claim superior knowledge of business, should spend more time watching the business news and learning.
> 
> Today on CNBC, there was a real estate fund manager from NYC on as a guest. He was saying how strict a regiment they have for valuations because it is the difference between success and failure.


LOL, show us how you would do that sags. Find a CBV that will do such a valuation for you. Go ahead and try. You too are trying to say that a valuator would not actually give a professional valuation on a business, regardless of what kind of business it is. In other words, you are saying a valuator is quite willing to BS a value. I suppose you might find one, just like you might find one professional accountant who would 'cook the books' for you to avoid taxes. But do you really want to try and argue that every accountant is crooked? Same thing.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is no such metric as "anticipated" earnings.

Evaluations of companies will involve "projected" earnings which are based on the likelihood of repeating past earnings.

If a company has $1 million in sales each year for the past 5 years, it is reasonable to project future sales of $1 million a year in future years.

The projected value would then be subjected to various factors that will lower the end value. (possible slowdown in the economy)

A business with $0 past sales each year for the past 5 years, has projected earnings of less than $0 for future years.

Most business fail and most businesses fail for lack of funding. The money runs out before the business is a success, hence the negative value for an unproven business.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Of course selling prices and valuations are linked.

Every company that IPOs has conducted thorough valuation of their company to determine the price of the IPO shares and overall worth of the company.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Never heard of CBV. The evaluations I have read were performed by major accounting firms.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

By the way, a hot dog vendor can make quite a good living if they get it right. Read this article by a vendor. https://learnhotdogs.com/hot-dog-ve... bottom line: A vendor,to fish and enjoy life.

One point that article does illustrate that is relevant to valuations, is the personal factor. That is, the value of the people themselves in the equation that a valuator employs to come up with a number. The actual strengths and weaknesses that the management people themselves bring to the table are part of what a valuator looks at. As the article by the hot dog vendor shows, in that kind of business, it is the difference between a vendor making say $25k per year and a vendor making $100k per year. 

If you want to see how far a hot dog vendor can go, take a look at the Halal Guys. From one hot dog cart to over 200 locations including some international.
https://thehalalguys.com/our-story/

The one factor that makes the difference between a failure, a mediocre and a top star, is the PEOPLE. Some can and some can't make that difference.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Just a Guy said:


> Oh, and since you can’t figure it out, it wasn’t the buyer, it’s the seller who doesn’t get paid.


So why'd you say it was the buyer doesn't get paid? and then blame somone else? You're funny.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Guess you’ve never made a typo. Not smart enough to realize when other do either.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> It really does seem that some people are having a hard time understanding that 'valuation' and 'selling price' are two entirely different things. A valuation is given based on projected business. If enough history doesn't exist to do a valuation based on P/E, then the valuator has no alternative but to do a valuation based on sales to date. Even if a business hasn't even opened yet, a valuator can and will do a valuation based on ANTICIPATED sales and earnings. That's what happened in this case and why the valuator quoted such a wide range. ie. $500k to $1 Mil.
> 
> None of that has anything to do with what a business will sell for. A business may sell for more or less than the valuation number. Some here are talking about valuation in one sentence and selling price in the next sentence or even in the same sentence, as if they were SYNONYMOUS, which they are not. Since this particular business is not for sale, selling prices are irrelevant. The only area that can be discussed is valuation.
> 
> ...


1) Price is what you pay, value is what you get. 
2) You should only pay value or better. 
3) There are lots of professionals who will say things to please the people who pay him. 
4) The place is not worth 750,000 based on a comparable for sale that sags ferreted out at 695000 for restaurant with proven track record of earnings, land, and building, not to forget a downtown location that Glen initially preferred but the rent was too high so he settled for a rental at a less valuable location. All the stuff about t-shirts, awards at a fest with maybe three or four competitors, and so on is razzle dazzle. You are blinded by the bling. You are over evaluating based on razzle dazzle.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

You can tell people who’ve never written a business plan in their life or applied for a loan to start a company. Banks lend all the time on projected sales from non-existing companies. They base it on similar companies and their sales. 

They look at the numbers you present and see if they look reasonable or are pie in the sky. 

The more I read this thread, the more I understand why so many businesses fail. People have no understanding of how business works, no desires to succeed and argue everything as if they are experts when they have no knowledge whatsoever and it’s obvious.

Keep lecturing on how you feel the world should work while the rest of us actually work in the world. Btw, you missed a spot on that last dish.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> As the article by the hot dog vendor shows, in that kind of business, it is the difference between a vendor making say $25k per year and a vendor making $100k per year.


Yes, you are now talking per year earnings. That's why one day of business is not long enough to do an evaluation. And it is certianly not long enough to say it is worth more than a better location with land and building at 695,000.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Non-existing companies get valuations all the time. Otherwise you’d never have something called a startup.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Just a Guy said:


> You can tell people who’ve never written a business plan in their life or applied for a loan to start a company. Banks lend all the time on projected sales from non-existing companies. They base it on similar companies and their sales.
> 
> .


Yes. Similiar company like the downtown restaurant with building and land and a multi year track record for sale at 695,000. 

So that's what sags did and you didn't do - look at similiar business. No wonder he's a commie - even when he does something right, the self professed business experts still pick on him.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Banks don't lend to startups without significant other assets being held as collateral. They aren't interested in 90% of their lending going bankrupt.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I am still trying to wrap my head around all these Tim Horton franchises supposedly going bankrupt.

Where are they located ? Around here TH is everywhere......in the hospital lobbies, on university campuses, in hockey rinks and all over the cities.

Even the old ones in neighborhoods where sales are lagging, simply sell the building and move to a new location. We have many outdated TH buildings that are now something else but the owners still have a franchise in a brand new modern building in a busy area.

Pay $400,000 for a franchise, pass all the business requirements, have the location and market thoroughly researched, have all the assistance and training from head office, buy all supplies from central suppliers......and go broke ?

How would that happen ?

The biggest problem with Tim Horton franchises is that you can't get one. Proposed new ones are snapped up by current owners.

I know a guy who owns 5 of them and would be happy to add to his collection. He doesn't get them all. The other owners want them too.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> A valuation is what a company is worth including earning potential. When you buy a business you don’t get paid for future income. If you read the quote about how valuation is done it’s a multiple of income. When you sell you don’t pay that. But maybe if people keep repeating this enough...
> 
> Gather none of you have ever gotten a business loan from a bank, you definitely don’t understand valuation.
> 
> ...


A TH franchise fee is not a business, it is a license to operate a business. 

No sane buyer buys a business with a high multiple of income on a couple days of sales history. Hence the valuation was some fun make-believe for TV. Show me a buyer who paid that for the business and I will accept the valuation.

I mean, why pay a high multiple when evidently you can build such a business in a few days. Practically a license to print money.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Try understanding this as we repeat it again...

Valuation isn’t the price to buy a business. 

As for who pays for companies, look up something called angel investing.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Economical Insurance had BMO and RBC conduct a valuation to set the price range for shares at their IPO that represent 100% sale value of the company. 

This is standard practice for IPOs, mergers and acquisitions and to borrow capital.

JAG and LTR appear to have problems understanding that valuation and selling price are linked together.

It really doesn't matter because the money to establish the BBQ came from the sale of a house the production company bought.

The whole show was a fraud from Stearns stay in the hospital covered by extensive health benefits, to advance teams setting up deals, to the purchase and sale of the home that provided the capital for the BBQ by the production company to a very questionable valuation for a business with no past history.

The only thing the show proved was that people might be able to be successful if they have enough support.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Valuation in that context requires a transaction. ie, 10% of the company is sold to new equity holders for $1B in new cash, valuation is $10B. No transaction, it is just one guy's opinion.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I don't know why I am bothering but I will try to offer some more examples to ponder.

Andrewf, you wrote, "Show me a buyer who paid that for the business and I will accept the valuation." Obviously that is not possible as that specific business has not been sold but let me give you an example to consider of where someone might be willing to buy a business with no sales at all.

On one Dragon's Den episode I watched, Jim Treviling (Boston Pizza) offered a guy $150k cash to buy outright 'his business'. The guy had zero sales and only a prototype product he had made in his own garage. There was in fact no real 'business' to buy, just a prototype product.

It was a D shaped piece of metal connected to the pull cord on a gas lawnmower. So instead of bending down to pull the cord to start your lawnmower, the cord was extended up over the handle bar of the lawnmower and down to a 'stirrup' you could put your foot in, push down on and start the mower. I hope I have explained that clearly enough for anyone to form a picture in their mind of what it was. Treviling offered to buy the 'business' outright. 

Now how do you suppose that Jim Treviling figured out a value? Ask yourself, did he offer $150k for a business that didn't even exist yet and that he expected would ONLY earn him $150k back? The 'value' of the business was not what he was willing to pay to buy it, the 'value' of the business was how much he expected to be able to earn from owning it. How much more than $150k do you think that would need to be for him to be willing to take the RISK of buying it for $150k? He put a 'valuation' on that business with no sales at all that was in excess of $150k obviously. What multiple do you think he might have thought he could make on it? Would he bother if he only thought he could make 2x his cost? 3x, 4x, ???

Is it that hard to accept that in the same way, someone might value a business with no sales such as the BBQ business we are talking about here in the same way. Someone might value it based solely on getting the recipe for an award winning BBQ rib sauce. How much is Swiss Chalet's Dipping Sauce worth do you think? KFC was built on a 'secret recipe'. How a business is valued depends on many factors and yes, some of them are subjective. 

Regarding failing Tim Horton franchises. Each franchise of whatever kind will not do the same business as every other franchise. Surely that isn't hard to understand. Don't keep your place clean, have flies flying all over your donuts right in front of the customer's face as a Timmy's near me does. Do you think that location does as well as other Timmy's locations?

Have a Kentucky Fried Chicken located in one of the Highway 401 rest stops (I would think that is a prime location) that when the poor young girl behind the counter is asked for a 3 piece chicken dinner, has to tell you, 'I'm sorry, we are out of chicken'. Yes I actually had that happen. Why? Because the owner obviously did not want to have enough pieces of chicken set out at the start of the day, which if not sold by the end of the day could not be re-frozen and then used later. In trying to manage inventory he was keeping the number of pieces available per day at too low a number, at least on that day. Can you imagine what happens to a KFC franchise that tells customers, 'we are out of chicken'?

That same Timmy's near me that has flies all over their donuts consistently runs out of chili by around 2pm and does not make more till they start the evening shift. Why? Again, they don't want to make a new pot of chili, then only sell 2 portions and have the throw the rest away when it doesn't get sold. So the owner tells them to hold off making any after a certain time of day. It's obvious. Do you think he does as much business as another Timmy's a little farther from me who has no flies on the donuts and has chili all day? Customers LEARN that not all franchise locations are equal and they vote as always with their feet. Is it hard to guess which Timmy's I go to when I want some donuts sans fly **** or a bowl of chili at 3pm?

Franchise restaurants fail all the time for various reasons. https://www.oakstreetfunding.com/seven-reasons-franchise-restaurants-fail/


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Upon reflection, I have come to my senses. The valuation was obviously wrong. It’s obvious the guy would lie on national television and potentially lose his license. No, wait, he’s not a real valuator, he just plays one on tv. Further, it being a reality show, the whole thing is obviously just fake, a sound stage with paid extras posing as customers (it explains the 40-60 employees they claim to employ). The website is fake, the products just plastic models...the business never existed and you can’t go to it today. The beer pulls are the only beer in all of Erie for that matter. 

They certainly aren’t making any money and all he original cast just went to work as dishwashers in that real bbq place they showed in an earlier episode. It’s the only real way anyone can make money. Hopefully they can form a union and demand $90/hr to wash dishes going forward. 

Don’t forget Glenn’s company went broke...after he sold it and it was mismanaged by someone else, but he’s obviously not a real wealthy guy, he just plays one on tv. I mean really, self made billionaire...like that could ever happen. It’s all fake.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I have a friend in real estate (warehouses) and his son became a lawyer and then did not like the work so he went back and became a CA. After working for 5 years at E&Y in M&A, he decided that he wanted to buy a business. He evaluated 25 businesses before finding one that was a good buy with growth potential. Most of them were over-valued with limited growth potential.

His business revenue is up by 300% in 6 years by creative and flexible marketing. He would say that most businesses for sale are way overvalued with much future hope in their forecasts.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The problem with a business valuation kcowan is that they can only reflect the NOW and the past if there is one, never the actual future. That would require a crystal ball obviously.

Take for example a business that is doing well today and is sold for X. Five years later it goes bust. Was the valuation 5 years back wrong? Or did it for example presume the same person was running that business and when it was sold, the new owner was simply not as good a businessperson as the previous owner?

What if a business is making money today but 2 years from now a new product comes on the market that basically puts paid to the first business? Was the valuation given 2 years back wrong? I always like to think of the telegram, the telex, the fax and e-mail. Owning a telegraph company was great right up until the telex put them out of business. The same is true of the telex when the fax came along and the fax when e-mail came along. How each of those businesses would have been valued a year before the new product arrived in the market would have been high. You can't say several years down the road that they were 'overvalued' in the past. Valuations only apply to the present circumstances. A valuation can only look at the now and the past if there is a past, it then projects the future but it does so on the ASSUMPTION that nothing major will change. 

Another factor to consider in how reliable a business valuation may be, is who did the valuation? There is no law that says a valuation can only be done by X. So valuations get done by many different people who have different degrees of expertise(or not) they bring to bear. In the following article, I particularly like the BBQ valuators.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBV_Institute

If I had to pick only one valuator for a business I would go with a certified professional just like with anything else. In Canada, that means you would look for someone certified by the CBV Institute. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBV_Institute


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Valuations are rendered with a report, to justify the numbers and methodology.

Where is the valuation report ?


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