# making pre-arrangements for your funeral



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I once knew someone who strongly believed in this idea after the passing of her mother, she didn't want her family to have to worry so much when she passed. So she chose her plot and funeral home in her living years, I believe even pre-paid for it. I think I like the idea, that will minimize the disruption to those I leave behind.

http://www.lahaiesullivan.com/pre_planning.html

Does anyone here believe in or do this? Thoughts?


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## hypo (Aug 11, 2010)

I ABSOLUTELY RECOMMEND this from personal experience. Recently had to go through bury a family member and this was not done. It REALLY SUCKS.

Because of the rapid rate of decay of a body after someone dies, you don't have any time to plan out a funeral after hearing the news. You have days, not weeks to arrange everything, from religious services, to cemetery plots, to contacting everyone, obituary, to the funeral home etc. All while you're still in shock of a serious loss. We're talking a cost of $5000-$15000 thousand depending on what arrangements you choose that you have to shell out within 2 or 3 days of first receiving the message. 

1.) It absolutely sucks talking about money when you're still raw with grief.
2.) You're not going to shop around for any deals because
a) you just wanna get it done at the time 
b) you don't have any time to wait

The more decisions you can make ahead of time (like choosing your burial plot, will etc), the less emotional and financial hardship you put on your family members if it happens. Even though a funeral is technically for you, in reality its really there for your friends and family to grieve and try and deal with you not being around any longer in their lives.

If you're in a position to make arrangements, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT. Most people assume they'll die a long ways away of old age, but never factor in accidents like car crashes etc. My advice generally falls on deaf ears though because most people don't want to think about themselves dying and therefore don't plan at all.


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

I come from frugal people. Most of my elderly relations pre-planned their funerals before July of 2010 to beat the HST. The other benefit (according to them) is that you get to pay for your funeral in today's dollars instead of future dollars.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Thanks so much hypo - that is exactly the kind of response I was hoping for. I've recently contacted my lawyer to get a will written up, but I didn't have any of these funeral arrangements done at the time. I still don't. I can't imagine my survivors would want to shell out that kind of money. Better for me to pay for this myself in advance once I have decided where I want to be buried. Or perhaps cremation. Not sure.

I think we're programmed to avoid discussing this topic. I admit it's quite uncomfortable to discuss these things, especially with those you are close to. But from little I know, this is really the kind of thing that should be arranged in advance. That way if something unexpected should occur, things will be addressed and not cause hardship for my survivors.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

My grandmother had done this. It made things alot easier for my family. Everything was arranged ahead of time.

It was kinda funny though, as she lived a long life. The original amount she paid was about $3000, but the final tab came to $12000. After everything was adjusted for inflation/invested amount, our family had to pay a few hundred dollars, no big deal.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Cal said:


> The original amount she paid was about $3000, but the final tab came to $12000. After everything was adjusted for inflation/invested amount, our family had to pay a few hundred dollars, no big deal.


I am surprised to hear this. I thought the whole idea of pre-payment was to avoid what you described. The website I provided lists locking in at today's prices as one of the benefits.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Most of my family has done this. If you think Canadian real estate is out of control, pricing on burial plots has easily increased 10-20X in the past 10 years.

I think of it as picking the view you will be stuck with for eternity, don't want to buy next to a bad neighbor.


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

Sampson said:


> Most of my family has done this. If you think Canadian real estate is out of control, pricing on burial plots has easily increased 10-20X in the past 10 years.
> 
> I think of it as picking the view you will be stuck with for eternity, don't want to buy next to a bad neighbor.


*laughing* ... now, what if you really don't like your spouse?

On a more serious note, my parents have done this. I'm inclined to buy a nice property and get cremated there instead. I think it's cheaper!


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> I am surprised to hear this. I thought the whole idea of pre-payment was to avoid what you described. The website I provided lists locking in at today's prices as one of the benefits.


I am not really sure of what was offered 20 years ago, when she originally purchased. I am also not sure if you get any choices as to how your deposit or payment is invested. Perhaps she chose something conservative. 

What's a couple of hundred bucks, in a situation like this. Everything was decided, and planned ahead of time, so there was no stress in that regard. 

I didn't mean for it to sound like I was complaining, or that pre paying was bad or anything. I thought it was great that everything was done ahead of time, and would consider doing the same in the future. (hopefully several years in the future  )


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## LUCKY (Mar 10, 2011)

*Agree with preplanning*

We totally agree with preplanning.
We bought our cemetery plot 10 years ago.
Our wills are up to date.
The funeral home is known, creamation, rented casket for the service, not paid yet.
We are in the process of finalizing the grave marker, to be placed without the final dates.
Our 2 children think that we have done too much, but I'm sure when the time comes they will appreciate it.

We are both 70 and in good health.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

I thought everyone planned out their weddings?

Oh...my bad...


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## PF_Enthusiast (Jan 21, 2011)

Great thread Royal! 

I'm actually a Licensed Funeral Director as well as I specialize in pre-planning and hold a Life Insurance License to sell burial/final expense insurance. Basically, the ways to pre-fund a funeral are:

1. Funeral/final expense insurance - Regular life insurance won't allow funeral homes to honour and lock-in today's prices. The reason being is the accumulated growth within the policy belongs to the policy holder, not the funeral home. Actual funeral/final expense insurance assigns polices to funeral homes, keeping them tax-free to the policy owner, and accumulated growth helps keep up with inflation for the funeral home. Therefore, those can be used to lock in prices. Installment payments may be made or you can purchase a lump-sum annuity with these plans.

2. Lump-sum payment to a funeral home, which is in turn put into a trust account. Each province has there own guidelines, but here in Nova Scotia, the funeral home takes 10% of the deposit as an administration fee. The funeral home also gets to keep all accumulated interest if the client decides to move or transer funeral homes. Insurance is different in the way the policy owner owns the policy and they are transferble at no charge.

Some families pre-plan their services without pre-funding them as well for various financial reasons (CPP Death Benefits, Life Insurance, etc.)

Well it's late and I just got in and can't really think of much else to write. I'll check back tomorrow and answer any questions


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

We did this for my grandmother when she first had her heart attack stroke. It definately made it easier 7 years later when she passed away.

At the same time we've helped our parents make their arranges. This was almost 20 years ago. As a family, we have said that planning out these things ahead of time makes it much easier in the long run. Our family is pretty open when it comes to finances and estate planning, which helps.


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## Brian Weatherdon CFP (Jan 18, 2011)

Dana said:


> . . . from frugal people. ..... you get to pay for your funeral in today's dollars instead of future dollars.


Thanks all, for sharing insights. I like Dana's comment and her humour 

1. Pre-planning saves much anxiety for a family as many have mentioned above. It deserves family discussion, and a written intent to guide family members in the general or specific terms that will be most helpful in our personal circumstances.

2. Pre-paying is less clear. If one has life insurance at the time of death, that is nearly always going to be more cost efficient than pre-paying. _(Oh but however, I don't like the advertised non-medical insurances for seniors; way too expensive.)_ Life ins done well should cost "pennies on the dollar" - and thus much less expensive than pre-paying costs of death.

3. Added ZIP is owning life insurance and including the charity(ies) of your choice as beneficiary. You can have sufficient tax refund to exceed cost of death. Many seniors have enough money in chequing account to cover death costs. Tax refund from the insured charitable gift can then replace all death costs (and more)*!* If ins. is "pennies on the dollar", then the tax refund makes it free altogether??? 

If we're truly frugal, and charitable as well, would we pre-plan for free?

BW


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Can I pre-arrange my funeral, choose my casket and cemetary plot in my living years on the assumption that my life insurance plan will pay the costs to my beneficiary at the time of my death?


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## PF_Enthusiast (Jan 21, 2011)

the-royal-mail said:


> Can I pre-arrange my funeral, choose my casket and cemetary plot in my living years on the assumption that my life insurance plan will pay the costs to my beneficiary at the time of my death?


Yes and no. Generally all funeral homes will allow you to choose your services and merchandise (casket, vault, etc.) without prepaying. Of course you don't get "today's" pricing, but if you're not prepaying than that should be expected. This is known in the funeral business as "preplanning". Cemetery lots are a different story (at least in my province). You will most likely want to physically choose your lot\plot, so you'd in fact be issued a deed for that piece of land. Life insurance only pays out upon death, so you wouldn't actually get to choose your lot\plot. Another factor when deciding to use your life insurance policy for final expenses is your face amount and your age and try and factor an estimated inflation. I can tell you that traditional services have doubled in price since the late 80's.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Brian Weatherdon CFP said:


> Thanks all, for sharing insights. I like Dana's comment and her humour
> 
> 3. Added ZIP is owning life insurance and including the charity(ies) of your choice as beneficiary. BW


Just a side note, based on the advice of our lawyers, was not to reduce the number of name to beneficiaries such as charities, if you have an estate that you plan to leave to loved ones, especially if you will have a sizable estate.

The reasoning was there have been cases where charities are named as a beneficiary (not the sole one), and they have gone after the estate for more, using the Estates money to dispute the will. The charity has nothing to lose, just the rest of the beneficiaries. Our lawyer advised us to instead of naming the charity to have our executor have our wishes in terms of the charity.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> Just a side note, based on the advice of our lawyers, was not to reduce the number of name to beneficiaries such as charities, if you have an estate that you plan to leave to loved ones, especially if you will have a sizable estate.
> 
> The reasoning was there have been cases where charities are named as a beneficiary (not the sole one), and they have gone after the estate for more, using the Estates money to dispute the will. The charity has nothing to lose, just the rest of the beneficiaries. Our lawyer advised us to instead of naming the charity to have our executor have our wishes in terms of the charity.


Could you explain that more fully, please, Plugging Along. I don't understand how a charity could go after more than the will specified the charity was to receive.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I may not get all the details right, as I'm not a lawyer. Essentially, the general advice was to try and limit the number of people you actually name in the will to only those who you really want the money. 

Although anyone can contest a will, however, anyone listed has more of a right to contest it. Charities that are listed, can (and some have) actually gone back and said they are entitled to more. This is applies especially if you are giving them a percentage. If it's a dollar amount, they can do so to, but it's harder. They contest the will at the expense of the estate, and hold everything up. From the charities point of view, they have really nothing to lose, as it's the estate that pays the fees. Our lawyer advised us that we were better off getting our executor/family to act upon our wishes. It's not that it happens often, but it does happen.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Thanks for the information. I remember a case that came before the court in B.C. many years ago where a woman had made some hand-written changes to her will without consulting her lawyer. The original will had left a certain amount to a well-known charity and the residue to family members. I don't remember the details, but the end result was that the change she made inadvertently changed things so that the charity was entitled to most of the estate. The judge said he had no choice but to find in favour of the charity, but he commented that he was sorry to have to do so, because it was clear that it was not the deceased's intent.

What was different about this case was that it caused so much bad publicity against the charity that their regular donations dropped steeply; many regular donors (including some extremely generous ones) informed the charity that they would never again make a donation unless the charity did the right thing. The charity, which had originally insisted that the money was legally theirs and they had no intentions of giving it up, changed their mind and passed it on to the original beneficiaries.

Something that came out in the media reports of this case is that the charity (and apparently many charities) had an employee whose duties included perusing the obituary columns every day watching for the names of people who they had reason to believe planned to leave them a bequest. The whole incident left a sour taste in my mouth about the business practices of charitable organizations.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Karen said:


> Something that came out in the media reports of this case is that the charity (and apparently many charities) had an employee whose duties included perusing the obituary columns every day watching for the names of people who they had reason to believe planned to leave them a bequest. The whole incident left a sour taste in my mouth about the business practices of charitable organizations.


It's not that we're against charities, for us, our primary intent is to leave our children our estate. It would be nice to leave some to charity, but I did not work so hard to have a chance that a charity would take advantage of my goodwill, and use my estate to fight my children for their inheritence. 

I figure my children or trustee will donate according to our wishes when they receive their inheritance.


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## Brian Weatherdon CFP (Jan 18, 2011)

I'm glad you two shared these concerns. 

1. I believe where a recognized estate lawyer and certified planner together shape the plan according to the desired wishes, those concerns are mitigated.

2. Now also thinking personally....I support some local community foundations who would never risk or assume to take arrogant measures against a family or estate. 

In the end it's the clarity of insurance designations, Will(s), Trust(s), properly devised that assure intended results.

BW


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> Although anyone can contest a will, however, anyone listed has more of a right to contest it. Charities that are listed, can (and some have) actually gone back and said they are entitled to more. This is applies especially if you are giving them a percentage. If it's a dollar amount, they can do so to, but it's harder. They contest the will at the expense of the estate, and hold everything up. From the charities point of view, they have really nothing to lose, as it's the estate that pays the fees. Our lawyer advised us that we were better off getting our executor/family to act upon our wishes. It's not that it happens often, but it does happen.


There was a case a few years ago in Toronto where an elderly widowed lady died and left the proceeds of the sale of her home to her late husband's alma mater. Her house was in a neighbourhood our friends were hoping to move to so they approached the lawyer for the estate hoping to make an offer on the house before it was put on the market. 

They viewed the house and determined what they thought was fair value of the house, but never got the opportunity to make their offer because the university was contesting the will on the grounds that they believe the contents of the house (some valuable antiques and an art collection) were also part of their bequest. After months of waiting for resolution they gave up and bought a different house.


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## Dave (Apr 5, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> I once knew someone who strongly believed in this idea after the passing of her mother, she didn't want her family to have to worry so much when she passed. So she chose her plot and funeral home in her living years, I believe even pre-paid for it. I think I like the idea, that will minimize the disruption to those I leave behind.
> 
> Does anyone here believe in or do this? Thoughts?


It is a very personnal issue. It depends on your priorities in life. Let me give you my perspective.

I think that there are way too many financial issues for us to worry about to go crazy about funeral pre-planning. Traditionaly, my ancestors in Europe have always been burried in a cemetery with us lighting candles at their graves during the feast of the dead. It was a big thing and I have many very fond memories of those moments as a kid. However, given the costs involved for a funeral in North America + costs of memorial garden maintenance, my parents will be cremated and their ashes scattered. I see that as part of our adaptation to the North American way of life and the crazy funeral industry here that by the way is very commercial and has little to do with tradition. There are cremations coops that do it for a reasonable price (less than 1000$ if I remember correctly). You do not even have to deal with a funeral home.

This issue comes to mind because I read recently a book about the conditions of life of the poor in the 18th century Victorian England (title: London Underground). What struck me is that those poor buggers would deprive themselves of food & clothing and live in terrible condtions, but hey would still manage to pay a weekly contribution to the local funeral home in order to have a dignified funeral. It was totally bonkers. I always think of that when I hear about funeral pre-planning. Gosh, let me live my life to the fullest, and the funeral... cremation does not cost much. Why worry ?

Dave


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## LBCfan (Jan 13, 2011)

How old are you guys? I'm 62 and wouldn't consider pre-paying. Too many bad things can happen. Think bankruptcies, lost documents etc.

In my case, my wife and kids know my wishes, "burn me or bury me well below the frost line", if the latter do it on the cheap (burial plots in my home-town go for a few bucks). Digging a 20 foot hole costs though, so burning seems right. My wife & kids are not dumb enough to buy a $5K casket and burn it, so it should be cheap. Since I intend to out-live all of them, it's not their problem and whatever happens won't bother me at all.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

This reminds me how surprised I was to find out Costco (US only?) sells caskets.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

I'm going to let my kids worry about it. Pay for it out of the estate, plant me, set me alight, turn me into a fake diamond ring for all I care.

I hardly care now, and once I'm dead, I really won't care.

Then again, I'm only 30 and may feel differently in 30 years.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

My parents have had their arrangements done up since probably their late 40's/early 50's (they are in their early 70's now). We will also do ours earlier too (we're in our 30's, so have a while).

Our reasoning is a little for financial, but mostly emotional reasons. We figure it's a difficult enough time as it is. The more things we can have taken care of, the less stressful it will be. We would also only do it if we could afford to pay for it without it impacting our other financials greatly.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

We just updated our wills and we have our wishes laid out in our wills for burial and funeral .All I need is the funeral home to pick me up and somebody to dig the hole , my family can write a check to pay for me lol .If i had my way I would be frozen ,hubby does not like that idea so guess I will get a lead lined coffin for two with a split in middle so we can find a way to get at eachother lol


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

Addy said:


> This reminds me how surprised I was to find out Costco (US only?) sells caskets.


Do you have to buy them in bulk?


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

I haven't made pre-arrangments for my death because I think everything should be done according to my daughters' wishes, not mine. It won't matter to me what happens to me after I die, but it might matter to them. I've told them that I don't want a lot of money spent on it and that I prefer cremation to burial. Things like whether to hold a memorial service and what do do with my ashes are up to them.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I dunno Karen, will your kids be able to make such significant decisions in the midst of their grief and loss? Seems to me it will be easier on them if you make your wishes known at this point, will give them some direction in a very volatile time for them. What do you think?


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

I agree with TRM on this one.

One can never predict that state your children will be in either. I have seen situations were siblings, some more financially sound that others, fight over paying for the arrangements.

Whilst everyone is suffering from grief is not the best time to introduce matters of $.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

It's not that I haven't made my wishes clear to my daughters, and they know that I have a life insurance policy that will more than pay for whatever arrangements they make. I have also prepared a document, which I update regularly and e-mail to my kids whenever I do, setting out details of what needs to be done when I die - including a list of all my assets, details of pensions, bank accounts, RRSP and TFSA accounts, unregistered GIC investments, acccount numbers and contact information for all of these items - every piece of information I can think of that they they will need (they are named as joint executors in my will). In this document, I also set out my wishes about cremation rather than burial, and I state that I do not want a funeral and that a memorial service isn't important to me, but if they want to hold one, it's fine with me. I name a funeral company that I suggest they use - because I know them (from experience) to be inexpensive and yet respectful. I also remind them about bills to be paid, friends to be notified (with contact information), etc., etc. I've shown this list to my lawyer, who drew up my will, and he's very impressed with it.

I have been widowed twice in the last eight years. The first time I had a memorial service because I knew it would have been important to my husband; the second time I didn't because I knew from our discussions that Bill didn't want one - he had moved here from the US to marry me four years earlier and didn't have many connections here except for my friends. He had expressed a wish that I publish a detailed obituary in the newspaper in the city where he been on the faculty of a university for 30 years and so was known to many people, and, of course, I did that.

My family is very open to discussing these things, and that certainly makes things easier.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Thanks Karen, very interesting. I am planning to have "the talk" with all the affected parties soon. I love your document idea. That's the same thing my lawyer told me to do. I have been working away at it all winter and haven't finalized it yet as I do not have all of the answers needed to be able to document. I guess I could give them a version of the document as a starting point at least.

Terrific responses. I appreciate how everyone is being so frank about this discussion. I actually think it's easier to have this talk with strangers where there's no emotion involved.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

> ...I guess I could give them a version of the document as a starting point at least.


I think it's a good idea to give them what you currently have; if you were to die unexpectedly that would be a lot more useful to them than nothing. I update mine whenever a change to my circumstances occurs, but I check it every few months to make sure I haven't missed anything. Another point - make sure you date each revision - I always tell my kids to destroy the previous one, but I don't know whether they do, so it's important that they know which was the most recent version.


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## donaldhumiston (Apr 26, 2011)

There are many options now I believe. You can even find then online and help you online. From selection to application and preparations, is all easy now. Most of out older generation has thought of this already to make things easier for the younger ones. I guess following their example ain't so bad.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I should have clarified that this pre-supposes an actual funeral. Some people don't need/want a funeral, so cremation and ashes kept in an urn or urn buried could save a lot of $.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Karen et al, regarding that excellent document suggestion you gave, I just thought you might like to know I decided to follow your advice and prepare it. The will is done but the instruction document remains a work in progress. I'll give the executor these things in a couple of weeks when I see them next time.

The document has a section of undecided stuff in it. I've been grappling with that issue for quite some time and still have not come up with answers. Think of someone who has lots of hobby items that are actually quite collectible, but for which proper sale venues are not commonly known. For instance, coin shops exist in most cities. But this is not the case for someone who collects say, swizzel sticks. That's just an example I fabricated but the point is I have a lot of these hobby items that are desirable in the right hobby, to the right people. Not ALL of the items I have would go to the same person, as some people are only interested in green swizzel sticks and some collectors only want canadian ones, for example. The executor wouldn't have a clue how to properly dispose of these items and they are not online. I was hoping I could figure this out for them and provide them the instructions. I do not want those items to be tossed in the garbage. They're too good for that.

How should this issue be dealt with?


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I think you will have to find a fellow swizzle stick collector and see if they will consent to helping out the executor if necessary (for a fee). 

Potential candidates could include swizzle stick dealers or anyone else familiar with the industry.

So by swizzle sticks, do you really mean antique sex toys?


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## cannew (Jun 19, 2011)

Besides all the good points mentioned above, I think many forget that there is more needed than just having a will and funeral arrangements.

I've put together a list of all pertinent information.
- list of all bank accounts, account numbers, phone, contacts
- list of investments, acct numbers, passwords, phone, contacts
- list of GIC's, due dates, phone, contacts
- list of investment practices (how, when, what I invest in)
- list of available cash and how to access them
- list of professional contacts (lawyer, accountant, insurance, etc)
- list of credit cards (which will be cancelled, phone, passwords, etc)
- list of credit cards spouse can use
- list of companies or people needed to be contacted (phone)
- other information they need to know (like the spreadsheets where I track and monitor my investments and how I enter the data)

The above is a single document which is updated as needed and kept with the will in the safety deposit box.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Thanks cannew for the excellent list. I went through the document yesterday after seeing your post and added more details. I don't think the investment practices will matter much since the estate needs to wind everything up to cash as soon as possible. Your list is very good.

Anyone else have input about the hobby items I asked about earlier? Appointing a hobby lead contact for each might be a good idea, but please keep the ideas coming. The more ideas on this, the better!


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## cannew (Jun 19, 2011)

The registered accounts going to the spouse can be rolled over. In that case if the spouse wishes to continue the same policy then the strategy and procedure should be defined.

Would like to see others add to the list for what they feel is important.


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## Mockingbird (Apr 29, 2009)

There are non-profit memorial societies in many of the provinces.
I've dealt with them several times here in BC.
With a small fee, the membership will provide you with the pre-planning process and will give you an access to a significantly reduced funeral cost at the participating funeral providers. If you are worrying about costs, then this is the way to go. 

You can read more about them thru the following links:
BC: http://www.memorialsocietybc.org/
Alberta: http://www.memorialsocietyofalberta.com/
Saskatchewan: http://www.famss.ca/
Manitoba: http://www.funeralsocietymb.org/
Ontario: http://www.myfuneralplan.org/
Northern Ontario: http://www.memorialsociety.ca/

MB


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## petulantfem (Dec 13, 2010)

This is a very interesting thread. 

I'm not sure that it is something that we will look into any time very soon, though.

This did remind me that we should have a will made up, and that I am still lacking life insurance in any capacity (DH has some LI through work, but not a very substantial amount). We have three children, and this was actually brought up for me a while back and I started looking into it and somehow it got shoved aside as we dealt with other things.

I found this form online, I wonder if it would be sufficient for planning?
http://www.caregiverslibrary.org/Portals/0/ChecklistsandForms_FuneralPlanningForm.pdf


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