# Buy burial plots off Kijiji?



## canabiz (Apr 4, 2009)

My folks (in their late 70s) have asked me to start looking at burial plots and funeral pre-planning. I called a local cemetery to inquire about pricing but the guy doesn't give such info over the phone (the website is also not very comprehensive) so I will bring my parents in sometimes next weekend to look at different options.

While doing research, I found a fair number of ads offering burial plots for sale on Kijiji (for the same cemetery and others in the region). The prices certainly vary greatly but the savings can be substantial (up to 50% in some cases). I am wondering if any of you guys have done this before and if you can share any feedback? 

This is obviously new territory for me and not something we talk about all the time so if you guys got any tips to share (deeds transfer), it'd be great. 

P.S. My parents prefer the traditional burial rather than cremation so that is not in scope.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

I'm in my early 70s, but I'm afraid I can't help you......my wife has strict instructions to double bag/double tag me and haul me to the curb on pickup day.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

canabiz said:


> My folks (in their late 70s) have asked me to start looking at burial plots and funeral pre-planning. I called a local cemetery to inquire about pricing but the guy doesn't give such info over the phone (the website is also not very comprehensive) so I will bring my parents in sometimes next weekend to look at different options.
> 
> While doing research, I found a fair number of ads offering burial plots for sale on Kijiji (for the same cemetery and others in the region). The prices certainly vary greatly but the savings can be substantial (up to 50% in some cases). I am wondering if any of you guys have done this before and if you can share any feedback?
> 
> ...


Sooner or later, we have to talk about our final resting place or disposition of our earthly remains.

In Ontario, you have to transfer through the cemetary board of the particular cemetary that you are buying the plot(s) from as each plot is registered and that would have to be updated along with the bill of sale.
Hopefully, the Ontario gov't doesn't charge HST on the resale of cemetary plots like they do with used cars..but there may still be some kind of fee associated with the transfer deed.
The link below is a generic "how to"..but at least it will give you an idea, that there is more to it than handing the seller on Kijji some cash.
You both need to go to the cemetary board and do the tranfer there with them...beware of scams..before plunking your cash, make sure there is a registered deed plot in the sellers name, if not, then don't go any further. 
Also, if the seller is selling the plot(s) for someone else, make sure all the releases are in place with the cemetary and directors, before plunking down your cash. 

http://www.ehow.com/how_5938080_transfer-cemetery-plots.html


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Nemo2 said:


> I'm in my early 70s, but I'm afraid I can't help you......my wife has strict instructions to double bag/double tag me and haul me to the curb on pickup day.


Reminds me of the Movie with Charleton Heston..Soylent Green..the ultimate in recycling.:biggrin:


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I think a local funeral home would be my first suggestions to seek advise.My husband and I had no plans in place for us but after handling my brother's funeral in November we decided then and there we would take care of the arrangements although we opted not to prepay the money since I can invest it and make more than the average increase on a funeral over 20-30 years.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

marina628 said:


> I think a local funeral home would be my first suggestions to seek advise.My husband and I had no plans in place for us but after handling my brother's funeral in November we decided then and there we would take care of the arrangements although we opted not to prepay the money since I can invest it and make more than the average increase on a funeral over 20-30 years.


Darn! Why didn't I think of that before handing over $9K + taxes to the undertaker for a pre-arranged funeral! 
I could have made some money off that while waiting for the time to come when I have to say "good bye cruel world..but then again, I may not have 20-30 years at this
point :biggrin:


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The cemetary wouldn't allow my dad to transfer or sell his plot.

I would beware of plots being sold privately, unless I checked with the cemetary first.


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## AMABILE (Apr 3, 2009)

How does one make pre-planning funeral arrangements without paying for them ?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

AMABILE said:


> How does one make pre-planning funeral arrangements without paying for them ?


You can't. You can certainly state in your will (funeral arrangements) but when the time comes somebody has to pay the piper, or it comes out of your estate.
The other thing is being a plot of land in Ontario..is there a "land transfer" tax when your cemetary plot is sold..and would it be considered your "principal residence" in the afterlife? 

Now, the question I have on investing in the afterlife (ie: convert it to virtual currency AND take it with you)...:biggrin:
Which is the better investment on long term returns..
HeavenlyGateInvestment dot "com"...
or
BurninHell dot "com "..aka The Bank of Bezzelbub.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> You can't. You can certainly state in your will (funeral arrangements) but when the time comes somebody has to pay the piper, or it comes out of your estate.
> The other thing is being a plot of land in Ontario..is there a "land transfer" tax when your cemetary plot is sold..and would it be considered your "principal residence" in the afterlife?


 ... plots sold by cemetaries are considered "non-profit" so there should not be a land-transfer tax but then better check with the cemetary where the deceased is going to be interned(sic?) as laws do change ... and for the "principal residence" in the afterlife question - if you mean a "perpetual/final" resting place - I don't think so as I have heard graves are dugged up after a 200 (max) years period to make room for the newly deads. :cower:

Can't help on the other investment in the after-life question - maybe some investment psycho-gurus onboard can answer that. :biggrin:


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Beaver101 said:


> ...... if you mean a "perpetual/final" resting place - I don't think so as I have heard graves are dugged up after a 200 (max) years period to make room for the newly deads. .


Theoretically most plots in Canada/US are perpetual. But most plots in Canada aren't old enough to have really been put to the test. The oldest ones are often church owned originally, and there is a known problem with these because they pre-dated laws requiring funds to be set aside in trust for perpetual care. So when congregations disappear, and churches close, there is a problem with what to do about their cemeteries. 

In contrast, the concept of "perpetual grave plot" has disappeared in many European countries. All the land would be taken up by cemeteries otherwise. In Switzerland for example, the normal "lease" is only 20 years. And coffins are simple wooden boxes that are required to be certified to decompose within that time. After 20 years the grave marker may be moved to a central display area, or returned to the family, and the plot is reused.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

AMABILE said:


> How does one make pre-planning funeral arrangements without paying for them ?


You do the contract , pick the casket etc and do a deposit on it but in terms of the casket you have to agree they can subsitute.We just did this in Newfoundland when we buried my brother in November ,not sure if everyone does this but we did.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

AMABILE said:


> How does one make pre-planning funeral arrangements without paying for them ?


Our estate will pay at the time ,we had option to prepay or do a $950 deposit and rest will be settled with estate.We have a family plot and we don't pay for the plot exactly but you pay $200 donation to the church.


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## cynbad (Feb 20, 2012)

AMABILE said:


> How does one make pre-planning funeral arrangements without paying for them ?


Sometimes people just go to a funeral home and record their wishes in a file so it helps their family/friend/executor when it's time to make the final arrangements. There is no obligation to prepay no matter what anyone working in funeral services tells you. Some folks like to prepay because it just gives them peace of mind to know that it's taken care of. 

Regarding the original post, you can always call the Ontario Board of Funeral Services as they create and revise legislation for all cemeteries in Ontario. They will be able to advise you accordingly regarding the resale of cemetery plots. http://www.funeralboard.com/


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... plots sold by cemetaries are considered "non-profit" so there should not be a land-transfer tax but then better check with the cemetary where the deceased is going to be interned(sic?) as laws do change ... and for the "principal residence" in the afterlife question - if you mean a "perpetual/final" resting place - I don't think so as I have heard graves are dugged up after a 200 (max) years period to make room for the newly deads. :cower:


That's only in Honk-kong "Beav". It's so crowded there that they bury (stack) their relatives in a vertical fashion in a 2 x 6 plot. After 200 years or so, the relatives are dug up and the bones are then used for Chinese medicine..again..it's recycling at it's best, 
because as you know, the body is 96% water..and the rest is minerals worth about 98c..(well that's what I was told in school back in the 50s/60s)
..in today's inflated economy..better double that amount. :biggrin:



> Can't help on the other investment in the after-life question - maybe some investment psycho-gurus onboard can answer that. :biggrin:


Well, surely somebody out there must have a reasonable answer. Let's say you win the $48 million dollar lottery and you know your time is coming up..in this digital age, we have
bitcoins..why not "Angelcoins" so that you can bribe St.Peter to go to the front of the line.....and if you happen to be going the other way..."devilscoins"..so you can buy the flameproof
suits and all the finest drink and food they have to offer. Going in empty handed is never a good idea.:biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> In contrast, the concept of "perpetual grave plot" has disappeared in many European countries. All the land would be taken up by cemeteries otherwise. In Switzerland for example, the normal "lease" is only 20 years. And coffins are simple wooden boxes that are required to be certified to decompose within that time. After 20 years the grave marker may be moved to a central display area, or returned to the family, and the plot is reused.


Hong Kong, due to overcrowed population and shortage of cemetary plots is that way as well. Interesting idea, so if one opts for a traditional earth burial (cardboard box I presume),
with a 20 year lease, the remains should be ready to be dug up and disposed where?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

In Ontario the selling of burial plots is covered by the Ministry of Consumer Affairs, so I would imagine it varies from Province to Province.

According to the information, a person doesn't buy or own the burial plot, but a "right" to be buried there.

A person can offer to sell the plot back to the cemetary, but if they decline it can be sold on the open market.

I think I was wrong in my dad's case.

He offered to sell the plot back to them, and they declined.

He was going to sell it privately, but after the cemetary deducted all their fees, it just wasn't worth enough to bother with.

https://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/en/Pages/Cemetaries_and_Funerals_Rights.aspx


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> I
> He was going to sell it privately, but after the cemetary deducted all their fees, it just wasn't worth enough to bother with.
> 
> https://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/en/Pages/Cemetaries_and_Funerals_Rights.aspx


Well this seems to settle it..you can buy burial plots on Kijji (or wherever advertised for "half price"), but when it comes to changing the deed, they (the cemetary) will demand full market value to protect themselves. Must have something to do with the perpetual care (grass cutting), as everything else, including interment is extra charge that your estate (or family) pays for at the time. 



> As of July 1, 2012, you will have the right to sell unused and unwanted interment and scattering rights* at full market value.* To do this, you will need to contact the cemetery that sold you the rights.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> In Switzerland for example, the normal "lease" is only 20 years. And coffins are simple wooden boxes that are required to be certified to decompose within that time. After 20 years the grave marker may be moved to a central display area, or returned to the family, and the plot is reused.


I am insisting on a simple wooden box. I really dislike the idea of the chemicals put into coffins to make them, plus the lacquers and other nasty stuff to pretty them up. I have yet to attend a funeral where the box was a simple wooden (ie non-finished, not plywood but simple cut and dried wood, not painted or glued). I imagine it may be a bit of a shock for most people to see.

Oh, and no embalming fluids or otherwise. I could look nasty in an open coffin/box!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_burial


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Addy said:


> I am insisting on a simple wooden box. I really dislike the idea of the chemicals put into coffins to make them, plus the lacquers and other nasty stuff to pretty them up. I have yet to attend a funeral where the box was a simple wooden (ie non-finished, not plywood but simple cut and dried wood, not painted or glued). I imagine it may be a bit of a shock for most people to see.
> 
> Oh, and no embalming fluids or otherwise. I could look nasty in an open coffin/box!
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_burial


Most funeral homes offer rent a casket. That's what I got for my $9K + gst pre-arranged funeral. Of course that includeds any necessary copies of death certificate paperwork to satisfy insurance companies and the various gov't pensions etc. A simple cremation service is offered here in Ottawa (Basic funeral ) for under $2000. (included taxes I believe).

Rather than pay the funeral home another $500 for a cremation urn..I made my own. They told me all I needed was a 1.5liter container. I ended up with a plastic peanut butter
jar and made a octogon shape container out of wood for it..hey I'm a carver/woodworker....so why should I pay them any more than I have to.:biggrin:


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## Brian Weatherdon CFP (Jan 18, 2011)

Hi Canabiz ... I believe you'd be amazed at the value you'll receive in a consultation with a professional funeral services planner. They're nice people; they'll also meet you for Free if you like. What would you have to lose? 

When I lived in Ottawa I could have given you a couple of names; I know several in the Oakville, Burlington, Hamilton area. Perhaps you can buy a plot on kijiji but what of the clarity, comfort, confidence that services and end-of-life planning has been completed ...and to know family members will avoid contention & disagreements when a dear one has passed. 

To be honest I haven't completed this planning myself yet, trusting that my Will, Life Insurance, and family discussions have offered much clarity. Many people are even lacking these! I'm 57 and recently raised the matter with my wife: I know in my heart it's something all of us should discuss and update from time to time with our families.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> ...
> 
> Rather than pay the funeral home another $500 for a cremation urn..I made my own. They told me all I needed was a 1.5liter container. I ended up with *a plastic peanut butter jar *and made a octogon shape container out of wood for it..hey I'm a carver/woodworker....so why should I pay them any more than I have to.:biggrin:


 . .. oh boy to the plastic peanut butter jar concept - are you sure you want your ashes to be mixed with plastic - that jar is going to breakdown eventually. ... ROFL to the DIY urn-maker. 

Speaking of the digital age, your "angel or devil-coins, your pick" concept may not be unrealistic ... you must have heard that deceased people still exists digitally or on FaceBook.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Beaver101 said:


> ....you must have heard that deceased people still exists digitally or on FaceBook.


In some, south of the border, jurisdictions they've even been known to _vote_.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> . .. oh boy to the plastic peanut butter jar concept - are you sure you want your ashes to be mixed with plastic - that jar is going to breakdown eventually. ... ROFL to the DIY urn-maker.


A part of the container will be scattered in one of my favourite places at a lake. (Note this is frowned upon by our gov't, but if you do it discreetly nobody will know..right?)
The rest will be buried in the family plot that already has my name on the headstone..just need the final date..how about that for tidying up your affairs before the grim reaper calls.. :biggrin:



> Speaking of the digital age, your "angel or devil-coins, your pick" concept may not be unrealistic ... you must have heard that deceased people still exists digitally or on FaceBook.


Not surprised..and since virtual money is starting to become a reality, if I could convert it to virtual money, why not. One needs to better oneself in the afterlife...and if some form of "realestate"
or wealth is encourage in those realms...one does need virtual seed money to get started. :biggrin:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> A part of the container will be scattered in one of my favourite places at a lake. (Note this is frowned upon by our gov't, but if you do it discreetly nobody will know..right?)
> The rest will be buried in the family plot that already has my name on the headstone..just need the final date..how about that for tidying up your affairs before the grim reaper calls.. :biggrin:
> 
> Not surprised..and since virtual money is starting to become a reality, if I could convert it to virtual money, why not. One needs to better oneself in the afterlife...and if some form of "realestate" or wealth is encourage in those realms...one does need virtual seed money to get started. :biggrin:


 ... talk about getting a head-start to the afterlife - sheesh, what's the rush? 

Nah, I wouldn't put an effort to "tidying" up my affairs before the grim reaper - I'm more concerned about what's good for dinner tonight instead. :biggrin:


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

carverman said:


> A part of the container will be scattered in one of my favourite places at a lake. (Note this is frowned upon by our gov't, but if you do it discreetly nobody will know..right?)
> The rest will be buried in the family plot that already has my name on the headstone.


Some of my late wife's ashes were scattered in the Colorado River - some around the 'church' here: http://www.thedesertbar.com/ and the balance in her family's plot.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

carverman said:


> ... Interesting idea, so if one opts for a traditional earth burial (cardboard box I presume),
> with a 20 year lease, the remains should be ready to be dug up and disposed where?


After 20 years they dig up the plot, sift out any remains, and move them to a communal grave site. The coffins aren't cardboard (not yet), but a softwood that will decompose in a few years.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> After 20 years they dig up the plot, sift out any remains, and move them to a communal grave site. The coffins aren't cardboard (not yet), but a softwood that will decompose in a few years.


Who in Canada is doing this? Imagine paying those expensive funeral services to the undertakers, then being "awakened from your rest", by being dug up by a backhoe/shovel, shoveled into
a sifter then dumped into a bin along with other bones to be reburied somewhere else, where the burial real estate is cheaper...why not just pulverize the bones and put them out in the green
bins for the weekly trash pickup then?

Ok, I know it's just the parts that dont turn back to earth..but if one has lived one's life and paid one's taxes..including the HST on the funeral and final
income taxes..you would think they would show more respect. money..money..money..the root of all evil as they say!


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Nemo2 said:


> In some, south of the border, jurisdictions they've even been known to _vote_.


They've also been known to handily beat their live opponents in elections.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/07/us-usa-campaign-dead-idUSBRE8A62AK20121107
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1013292.stm
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dead-man-wins-re-election-in-missouri/


Cheers


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

carverman said:


> Who in Canada is doing this? Imagine paying those expensive funeral services to the undertakers, then being "awakened from your rest", by being dug up by a backhoe/shovel, shoveled into
> a sifter then dumped into a bin along with other bones to be reburied somewhere else, where the burial real estate is cheaper...why not just pulverize the bones and put them out in the green
> bins for the weekly trash pickup then?
> 
> ...


Fortunately enough, this doesn't happen in Canada - YET. It's only in a Gestapo/Stasi country named Switzerland (who also has many other sorts of bizarre laws and regulations, such as speciallly designed Garbage bags with a special stamp and the Garbage police, or mandatory insurance for ... bicyclists. That sounds like a communist country to me and I'll always try to stay away from it]


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

smihaila said:


> Fortunately enough, this doesn't happen in Canada - YET.


At least in Canada we wait 200 years before doing the same thing.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Addy said:


> At least in Canada we wait 200 years before doing the same thing.


AFAIK,the only graveyards that were dug up in Canada were any that were along the St. Lawrence in settlement villages that were flooded when the construction of the St. Lawrence
seaway was finished. Depending on the families wishes some of the graves along with the headstones were moved up to an area next to the seaway that was still accessible.


*It would be a mistake to think that all that now lies beneath the water is the merest imprint of the old graveyards. Families were given the choice of having the remains of their loved ones removed or left in the original grave, therefore, not all the remains were relocated. It is also important to remember that not all old graves were marked. Over decades some stones would have fallen and simply sunk into the ground and so remain invisible to those working on the relocation. As well, some interments may not have been commemorated with more than a wooden marker that over time crumbled in to the ground. Some of these lost sites are the graves of hard working farmers who helped to carve this land. Some were teachers, tradesmen and some are probably infants. These graves, even if hidden and nameless are none the less part of the history of this area. They should not be forgotten. Maybe the St. Lawrence feels that way too*


In Ontario, especially in greater Toronto, there is a small graveyard that is at the junction of the 427 and 401 highways. It was left intact .
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2009/10/31/resting_in_peace_not_at_this_graveyard.html


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## Tom Dl (Feb 15, 2011)

carverman said:


> In Ontario, especially in greater Toronto, there is a small graveyard that is at the junction of the 427 and 401 highways. It was left intact .
> http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2009/10/31/resting_in_peace_not_at_this_graveyard.html


Yeah, but that goes to the greater point of whether you have a resting place (silly nonsense) that would be acceptable to the plantees. I'm not sure how you visit that junction graveyard, and I have seen it many times. I did a long drive from NB to TO on Monday, and saw several really sad graveyards that were now sandwiched between wreckers, and lead smelters, with their original view of the water, blocked by the huge hwy, kind of deal...


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