# CERB Fail



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Maybe they should have just given it to everyone, instead of this mess of special interest groups.

Who would have thought a hastily thrown together program with unclear criteria could be problematic?

Now there are thousands of people, a year into the pandemic, facing massive tax bills over Christmas.

Thank you Santa Trudeau!
You've destroyed Christmas for nearly half a million Canadians.

To be clear, I recall on this forum people from across the political spectrum (except the Trudeaumaniacs) saying a simple taxable cash handout to everyone would be best.










As vulnerable youth face CERB clawbacks, Trudeau says Liberals looking over options


While self-employed people have received much attention over a dispute about CERB eligibility, letters have also gone to some of the estimated 6,000 to 7,000 young people who aged out of care each year -- meaning they turn 18 or 19, depending on provincial rules, and are left to a patchwork of...



www.ctvnews.ca





I honestly don't understand how anyone can support this goofball.
They can't even hand out money without screwing it up.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I proposed a one time payment early in the pandemic. I don't think the Conservative party would have supported that, but the NDP would have.

It was pretty clear early that this virus was going to cause a lot of economic disruption and people were going to need money.

I also thought of it as a "unity" issue. We are all in this pandemic together and will have to battle our way out of it together.

The Liberals don't control the claw backs by Provinces of disability and welfare benefits due to the CERB though.

Now they have a mess to deal with. You made $5000 "net" and get to keep the money, but you only made $4999 "net" so sorry......pay it back.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Go big or stay home.......I said from the start. I proposed about $1 Trillion in instant cash and spending on PPE etc.
> 
> Now the government is forced to make decisions on who "didn't understand" and who actively "cheated" for the benefit.
> 
> ...


They're talking about another $10k/citizen in "stimulus".

I'm sure they're going to try and direct it to their friends.


The thing all these morons don't understand is that economic activity is down because the businesses are closed.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Sorry, I thought my original post had disappeared and made another post. Message is basically the same though.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The program was solid and was rolled out very quickly. They got money out the door fast.

It's funny how conservatives whine about 'personal responsibility' and 'abuse of welfare/EI' when it suits you, and in a case like this, now you're whining about how the payments weren't generous and strings-free enough.

When @MrMatt posts things like this I immediately know he's being disingenuous. If there's one thing MrMatt has demonstrated over the years is that he has a razor focused single agenda, which is to always spin ANY story, really about any topic under the sun, as a criticism of the Liberal government. This is why I still suspect that he is a paid operative. For example even if you talk about Trump, or France, or any odd topic, MrMatt spins it back to his agenda.

He even has a structural recipe for those (again, I think he's been professionally trained in this). He follows this template: "Trump does indeed fail horribly on <whatever topic>, which is exactly why Trudeau needs to be held to account and called out for <completely different unrelated subject>"

He sure talks and acts like a professional who's paid to come to social media every day and spin political attacks. I don't think there's anyone else on CMF who does this so consistently. I don't believe a word of what @MrMatt says about anything.

CERB was quite generous and easy to apply for. Compared to other EI and welfare type of programs, this was a big success. Thank goodness we have a government in power which actually cares about vulnerable and disadvantaged people, so when the government says that they are sympathetic to the misfortunes of the poor, I actually believe it.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The COVID pandemic has revealed the structural problem that was already there.

The CERB and other supports are only temporary measures. The problem still remains unaddressed.

This is a chart from the US that I suspect reflects the same situation in Canada.

Imagine if food and other necessities were included, and if the true cost of inflation was factored in.

Capitalism is broken and there needs to be changes in how the wealth produced is distributed.

There is no big screens, Iphones, or other discretionary spending listed there.

This is just the basics of life and doesn't even include the rising costs of food and transportation and other fixed costs.

A UBI needs to be created to distribute income more equitably. There is more than enough for everyone. It just needs to be spread around differently.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> The program was solid and was rolled out very quickly. They got money out the door fast.


And now they're asking for it back.
Thats EXACTLY the problem with this program, which is why many, myself included, wanted a program that went to everyone.



> It's funny how conservatives whine about 'personal responsibility' and 'abuse of welfare/EI' when it suits you, and in a case like this, now you're whining about how the payments weren't generous and strings-free enough.


Ok, but if it was a cash handout, it should have been to everyone.



> When @MrMatt posts things like this I immediately know he's being disingenuous. If there's one thing MrMatt has demonstrated over the years is that he has a razor focused single agenda, which is to always spin ANY story, really about any topic under the sun, as a criticism of the Liberal government. This is why I still suspect that he is a paid operative. For example even if you talk about Trump, or France, or any odd topic, MrMatt spins it back to his agenda.


This is specifically about how the CERB criteria were confusing and restrictive, and didn't help the people who needed it.
We're talking nearly half a million people here.



> He even has a structural recipe for those (again, I think he's been professionally trained in this). He follows this template: "Trump does indeed fail horribly on <whatever topic>, which is exactly why Trudeau needs to be held to account and called out for <completely different unrelated subject>"


Yes, because I see both Trump and Trudeau as spoiled rich kids playing games.



> He sure talks and acts like a professional who's paid to come to social media every day and spin political attacks. I don't think there's anyone else on CMF who does this so consistently. I don't believe a word of what @MrMatt says about anything.


Thanks, I never thought someone would comment that my writing is professional.


> CERB was quite generous and easy to apply for. Compared to other EI and welfare type of programs, this was a big success. Thank goodness we have a government in power which actually cares about vulnerable and disadvantaged people, so when the government says that they are sympathetic to the misfortunes of the poor, I actually believe it.


It's only generous if they actually give it to people, demanding it back 10 months later doesn't fit my definition of "generous".
I say go and even it out, just give EVERYONE the CERB payout.

Now of course O'Toole will oppose it, because it will be a attacked as a cash handout/bribe to win the coming election. But I honestly don't see a better way to fix this mess.

The other one is to "forgive" those who improperly got CERB, which is going to anger people even more.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

College education costs began to skyrocket when the US passed a law that student loans could not be discharged in bankruptcy. This meant a teenager could sign up for student loans and never get free of them for the rest of his or her life. Lenders responded by making bigger and bigger student loans, and colleges responded by raising their prices through the roof for everything from tuition to text books.
In other words, the problem is a kind of government enforced monopoly.

Health care costs 10 times as much in the US as elsewhere because it is a government enforced monopoly. Doctors must be licensed, drug companies and medical companies are given special legal privileges, subsidies, are exempt from antitrust laws. In return they are very generous to politicians who support them.

We all know how housing costs are manipulated starting many years ago with special laws and tax breaks for home owners, deregulation in the eighties which led to the free and easy mortgage loans of the 1990s and 2000s which led to the crash of 2008 which triggered round after round of quantitative easing that fed trillions of dollars into the banking system. They have done everything they could to keep home prices high, short of helping home owners.

As for wages, it has been public policy since the seventies to shut down manufacturing wherever possible. Taxes, environmental regulations, zoning have all been used to drive out factories and prevent new ones being built. The idea was to send all those nasty manufacturing jobs overseas, and change to a service economy where we could all make a living selling each other insurance and fancy coffee. The good $25 an hour union jobs are gone, replaced by minimum wage barista and Amazon warehouse jobs and you need a college degree to get one of those.
The working class was ruined in the seventies and eighties and now they are coming after the middle class.
None of this was the doing of capitalism, quite the opposite, unless you call political graft and monopolies capitalism.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> He sure talks and acts like a professional who's paid to come to social media every day and spin political attacks. I don't think there's anyone else on CMF who does this so consistently. I don't believe a word of what @MrMatt says about anything.


Just to point out, you're attacking me, rather than the legitimate concerns with the program.
1. Confusing eligibility criteria
2. Lack of timely screening.
3. The fact that there are now nearly half a million people now in a tough situation. 

FWIW, while there may be some scammers, I think most of those people honestly thought they were eligible for the program. 

But congrats on the personal attack, often a good way to distract from the actual issue.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

I wonder if all the people who managed to get the CERB, that they were never actually entitled to anyway, will actually give it back 🤣 This government and especially Trudeau are the biggest disaster to hit Canada


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

It should have been limited to one's 2019 income from employment, up to a maximum amount. 
I know people who earned $7-8000 last year, getting $24000 & counting, from CERB.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

jargey3000 said:


> It should have been limited to one's 2019 income from employment, up to a maximum amount.
> I know people who earned $7-8000 last year, getting $24000 & counting, from CERB.


Yes... but those who are graduating school, or returning to the workforce (ie working mothers) etc and those in more precarious employment needed this the most.

I think the program should have been focused on not missing anyone.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

That would have cut out our resident communists Matty, you know that’s never going to fly....


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I agree that CERB would have been better as a uniform amount of taxable money, given to everyone.

But even if it wasn't optimal, I think CERB was executed well. The qualification criteria were pretty reasonable, because this was meant to be income replacement for working people who had to stop *working* due to the pandemic. And because it was about support for *working* people, they had some very reasonable criteria for what defines working.

The $5,000 income requirement isn't as big a deal as the media makes it to be. Let's say the self employed person had $5,999 gross income with $1,000 expense claims = $4,999 net self employment income.

Self employed people have been saying that they thought the requirement was based on gross income. There is an extremely simple fix. They just amend their last tax filing and reduce their expense claims. Now the net income bumps up above $5,000 and they fully qualify for CERB.

And I'm sure the government will just forgive the issue relating to at-risk youths. The government has no desire to make extremely poor children pay. This group is unfortunately a "corner case" ... a rare group which happened to get screwed by the criteria. And we're not talking a large number either. According to the article, it is only some number of people out of 6,000 to 7,000. So maybe half of them, maybe about 3,000 kids got this? That's about 3,000 people out of 27 million applications = 0.01%

Truth is, the ugly problem has surfaced with only 0.01% of CERB filings. Such a small number that they can be handled manually by CRA/govt.

The self employed people who thought it was based on gross income can file a tax return amendment and keep their CERB by reducing their expense claims.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I agree that CERB would have been better as a uniform amount of taxable money, given to everyone.
> 
> But even if it wasn't optimal, I think CERB was executed well. The qualification criteria were pretty reasonable, because this was meant to be income replacement for working people who had to stop *working* due to the pandemic. And because it was about support for *working* people, they had some very reasonable criteria for what defines working.
> 
> ...


From the initial article.

"They are now among the 441,000 people who have received letters from the Canada Revenue Agency questioning their eligibility for the CERB, and warning they may owe back some of the payments."
Yet you claim it is only 0.01% of filings? 
Oh you're just taking a very small subset of people and pretending they're the only ones with probems, but there are many more.








122,562 people signed and won this petition


Help halt CRAs unreasonable demands for CERB repayments until further investigation




www.change.org





Also lets be very clear, the program never stated net income.
They could have stated "Line 23600 from your 2019 tax return", but hey, why be clear and avoid problems.

I'm glad we agree that it would have been better as a uniform grant. 

I think it was executed poorly, because EVERYONE saw these problems coming. The initial criticisms were it was confusing, and people were being left out.
Now we're finding out that those concerns, raised IMMEDIATELY upon release of the program were valid.


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## newfoundlander61 (Feb 6, 2011)

I remember when I called them about applying and was trying to find out if I was elgible for the first payment (sometime in March) the CRA rep was a little hesitant and did not give me clear answers. As a result I decided to wait until the following month and at that point the information put out seemed clearer so I applied. I did meet the eligibility for cerb for some tax will be owning and thats fine with me. Maybe the government should just let them keep the payments and tax them like everyone else. Time will tell on this one.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

MrMatt said:


> Also lets be very clear, the program never stated net income.
> They could have stated "Line 23600 from your 2019 tax return", but hey, why be clear and avoid problems.


Anyone who reports self employed should be aware that "income" is never "gross income" as far as the CRA is concerned. Most of them just tried to cheat the system. Or were already cheating the system by underreporting income or overreporting expenses.

Now I bet we'll have Trudeau think it over and declare "well, this is way too sad, nobody should have to suffer through this, we'll just defer those bills and allow them to qualify with 2022 income". And maybe have an election next spring. But those are totally unrelated of course.

I don't even want to think about the tax liability they created. This is going to be such a huge mess in a few months. The checks should have been smaller and tax free, or at least have had some kind of withholding applied to them according to previous declared income.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

off.by.10 said:


> Anyone who reports self employed should be aware that "income" is never "gross income" as far as the CRA is concerned. Most of them just tried to cheat the system. Or were already cheating the system by underreporting income or overreporting expenses.


Exactly. Many people tried to abuse the CERB by having pretty much non existent income, or inappropriately suppressing their income to begin with, and then pretending it was above $5,000 only when it was convenient for them (getting CERB).

MrMatt is trying to make a big deal of all the complaining people but there is an easy fix, which I already described. If someone truly had more than $5,000 income it's a simple matter of filing a tax adjustment to reduce the expenses. All legitimate cases can be solved, pretty easily.

It really only comes down to a handful of truly unfair situations, like I said 0.01% of CERB filings.

In most of the other cases, they are either over-reacting to the CRA letters (not aware they can simply file an adjustment to solve it), or they cheated the system and now face the consequences.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Exactly. Many people tried to abuse the CERB by having pretty much non existent income, or inappropriately suppressing their income to begin with, and then pretending it was above $5,000 only when it was convenient for them (getting CERB).
> 
> MrMatt is trying to make a big deal of all the complaining people but there is an easy fix, which I already described. If someone truly had more than $5,000 income it's a simple matter of filing a tax adjustment to reduce the expenses. All legitimate cases can be solved, pretty easily.
> 
> ...


Yes, it was an incredibly poorly explained and implemented handout.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Meh......what is the difference.

They wanted to get the money out the door as quickly as possible and they accomplished that.

Better than the US where they are fighting over a one time payment of $600 which doesn't even pay a month of rent in ANY State.

Flooding cash into the system is exactly what they wanted to do to support people and business.

People have to declare the income on their 2020 tax returns anyways.

I would say....mission accomplished.....job well done.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Speaking of the US.........while the so called leaders squabble about a pittance for Americans in dire circumstances, the Fed authorizes the big banks to start share buy backs again.

JP Morgan jumps right in and announces a $30 Billion share buyback.........happy days are here again.

Riots don't surprise me anymore. I am surprised there aren't more of them. Corporate capitalism has no future.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> I would say....mission accomplished.....job well done.


Yes they did a good job with it.

People who dislike the government will always find something to whine about. But this was a well executed program, which got money out the door VERY quickly -- that's the key part. That liquidity helped prevent a total economic collapse.

But I'm happy to read these messages of criticism from conservatives on this board, as they complain about how these income requirements only hurt the program.

Guys, you're right!

What this really shows is that they are now on board with Universal Basic Income, the concept of doing away with complicated welfare programs with tons of rules and stipulations, and replacing it with no-questions-asked cash handouts.

As conservatives on this board are explaining in this thread, the rules and caveats create tons of administrative burden and inefficiency and can actually reduce the effectiveness of the programs. I agree with @MrMatt fully on this.

This is why schemes like Universal Basic Income are the way to go. You don't add requirements, you don't try screening or clawing back ... you just pay out the UBI to everyone. This actually results in better efficiency, overall. Plus, you don't have to employ all those administrators, welfare case workers, extra CRA agents, or investigators.

This thread shows that our resident conservatives are finally on board with no-questions-asked welfare and social assistance programs. About time!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Yes, it only took a global pandemic to help them understand, but better late than never.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Yes they did a good job with it.
> 
> People who dislike the government will always find something to whine about. But this was a well executed program, which got money out the door VERY quickly -- that's the key part. That liquidity helped prevent a total economic collapse.
> 
> ...



I don't think we should have UBI, because 
1. It's bad for the people.
2. We can't afford it. Even today they have to tax people making less than a "living wage".
3. It will lead to a perpetual underclass of unemployed. 

That being said, if you want to do something stupid, do it in the least irresponsible manner possible.

For example, if you want to OD on heroin, do it near medical care, so you don't die.
I think we can agree on that, while still saying "heroin bad"

Finally you know they won't cut all that highly paid government staff. 


I do think we need to dramatically improve our welfare systems, and address the poverty traps they create.
These poverty taps are part of the problem of "systematic racism". They include things like discouraging families.

Why does my tax return need my spouses income? Unless they're discriminating based on family status.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

The only reason we need to have something like CERB is compensation for the government taking away your job.

The government takes away jobs, they must compensate people.


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## Alisonym1980 (Feb 3, 2021)

james4beach said:


> The program was solid and was rolled out very quickly. They got money out the door fast.
> 
> It's funny how conservatives whine about 'personal responsibility' and 'abuse of welfare/EI' when it suits you, and in a case like this, now you're whining about how the payments weren't generous and strings-free enough.
> 
> ...


I think the issue with Cerb is not that it was not generous enough, or that it was discriminatively selective. The problem was that it was unclear. It did not clearly state what was considered qualifiable in a way in which the entire population, eligible or ineligible would understand and be able to easily determine their own said eligibility. I thought I was eligible,I had my accountant review the qualifications written within the CRA websites CERB application page and he too determined I was eligible. I received the cheques and I was very grateful because all work I had lined up for 2020 and for 2021 was completely lost due solely to covid-19. Without those cheques, I honestly don’t know what I would have done. Now I have received an email saying I didn’t qualify and have to pay the entirety of those cheques back. I had just started my employment in January of 2020, the year prior I did not state that I made over $5000 from employment income due to the several random jobs I worked that year, however I made more than $5000 in interest that year and therefore my 2019 tax return stated I made well over the qualifiable $5000.Nowhere in the CRA’s website or any login page, account portal, Eligibility outline, etc did it say that interest made was not considered qualifiable for the $5000 minimum income neccesary to receive the CERB.
So, now im terrified and don’t know what to do. I do not qualify for EI, I do not have the cheques anymore that I received - as I needed them to get by at the time I recieved them, due to covid 19 I still am unable to work and I have had zero luck in finding a job in another industry which has not been effected by covid 19. I have no other means of income as the interest I receive I do not have actual access to. Without the cheques I would have been screwed. I am resorting on friends and family helping me out with loans at the moment because I now I know I don’t qualify for the CRB either. My government definitely failed me. I was someone in need of that money and someone whos income and means of getting by was directly effected by covid 19. Now not only am I left to fend on my own without the governments support or assistance, but I am also in extra financial hardship because of the government in this extremely hard time. This wasn’t what the Cerb was intended for. It was meant to help Canada’s citizens. It helped a select few. It screwed a large selection of us too. And all it would have taken to ensure at the very least that it wouldn’t cause even more grief then the grief it was trying to eradicate, would have been to take some time to think that maybe the entire population would not be knowledgeable of the terms and conditions surrounding their very lacking eligibility requirements, my own accountant after all, was lead to believe that I was eligible when I was not- based solely on what the CRA had written. And I’m not the only one, there are hundreds- thousands of other individuals who are in the exact same prickly for similar similar-exactly the same reason.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I think many Canadians sympathize with people caught in this position and am hoping the government makes the distinction between those who weren't working and needed the money but didn't qualify for the reason you specified and those who may have collected while continuing to work.

In the interim, I would recommend calling the CRA about some kind of future repayment schedule. Given your circumstances, by the time the re-payments start they may have figured out what to do to fix this problem.

I think they should "forgive" the debt for all but those who deliberately cheated the system. I think Canadians would support that result.

The CRA lack the authority to "forgive" debt, but they can arrange a payment plan for that debt.

It will take legislation by the government to forgive the debt, so perhaps call your local MP as well.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

To help your current situation, have you considered a job in a retirement home ? I know many are short staffed and looking for help in dietary, laundry, housekeeping etc. They will provide training for the jobs and the pay is fairly good, especially in a unionized setting.

Alternatively, you may want to consider a career switch and return to school under a student loan. Governments are anxious to have people complete PSW training these days......as an example.

You should also check out social services to see if you qualify for temporary financial aid. This is the kind of situation for which the "safety net" exists.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

Alisonym1980 said:


> however I made more than $5000 in interest that year and therefore my 2019 tax return stated I made well over the qualifiable $5000





Alisonym1980 said:


> I have no other means of income as the interest I receive I do not have actual access to.


So you somehow have over $5k interest income in your name but don't have access to it nor to the capital which generates it? I find the whole thing somewhat hard to believe.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Not that unusual......locked in GIC perhaps ?


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

sags said:


> Not that unusual......locked in GIC perhaps ?


Well if someone with no previous employment income made the stupid decision to lock in over $100k of GIC with no emergency fund, I'm not going to feel that sorry that they don't get CERB or have to pay it all back. Something does not add up in that sob story.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Taxable "interest" on strip discount bonds. Interest in some taxable trust. I agree, this is plausible. But 5K interest implies ~150K of principle somewhere. Not sure someone with a 150K asset to draw on is as desperate as all that.

I don't agree CERB should have just gone to everyone, though. My and my wife's pension income was not affected at all, and my investment income was really only affected indirectly. There are a lot of retired folks in the same boat who shouldn't get some extra windfall at the expense of folks who really lost their livelihood.


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

Many people are working cash jobs and also getting CERB/CRB at the same time. Some didn't make 5/6K in previous years but receiving 2K/per month. As a tax payer, I am disgusted and there should be no mercy for those who are abusing the system.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Maybe they should have just given it to everyone, instead of this mess of special interest groups.
> 
> Who would have thought a hastily thrown together program with unclear criteria could be problematic?
> 
> ...


As I said when it was announced, CERB should have been a forgivable 0% loan. The important part was to make sure people had liquidity and could mostly meet their obligations. We could set the criteria later and more thoughtfully on when the loan should be forgiven. Anyone loans not forgiven would eventually attract interest and have mandatory repayment as % of taxable income in subsequent years.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

scorpion_ca said:


> Many people are working cash jobs and also getting CERB/CRB at the same time. Some didn't make 5/6K in previous years but receiving 2K/per month. As a tax payer, I am disgusted and there should be no mercy for those who are abusing the system.


Is this true, do you have a firm reason to say this?

I don't know much about how many 'cash jobs' exist out there. I know that waiters and service industry people get cash tips, but those are usually quite small and nobody is getting rich off restaurant tips. I presume you mean something different?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Small scale construction (decks and sheds) can have a lot of cash work too.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

andrewf said:


> Small scale construction (decks and sheds) can have a lot of cash work too.


Yep, very much that. Small scale interior renovations too. I remember going to the hardware store last spring and the two guys in front of me were dressed for construction work and paid over $300 with a stack of bills. There are very few legit reasons to do that these days. I'd be surprised if they weren't collecting CERB while working for cash.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

off.by.10 said:


> I'd be surprised if they weren't collecting CERB while working for cash.


That is simple presumption, not evidence of any kind.

Here's my presumption: I think that folks who operate in the cash economy didn't report last year's income and so didn't have an income history to allow them to claim CERB.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

gardner said:


> That is simple presumption, not evidence of any kind.
> 
> Here's my presumption: I think that folks who operate in the cash economy didn't report last year's income and so didn't have an income history to allow them to claim CERB.


You have to declare something or CRA will be knocking on your door for a lifestyle audit. You just divert 30%. We have all experienced someone offering us a different 'cash price'. Some clients want the invoice, others don't.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Should the CERB been paid to people with money, investments, homes, property or other wealth ?

The Province of Ontario is clawing back disability and welfare benefits from people who collected CERB. The Federal government isn't happy about that.

It is a rabbit hole that never ends. The bottom line is that people who received CERB were happy and those who didn't weren't happy.

The NDP was telling everyone to file to collect the CERB. The government posted errors in their initial rules.

I say.......forget about it and move on. I think the cost was around $77 billion or so...........so it isn't that big a deal in the big scheme of things.


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

sags said:


> I say.......forget about it and move on. I think the cost was around $77 billion or so...........so it isn't that big a deal in the big scheme of things.


Money doesn't grow in a tree. I would say spend another couple of hundred millions to catch the cheaters and make an example of them. Therefore, people will be thinking twice before doing any fraudulent activities in future.


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

james4beach said:


> Is this true, do you have a firm reason to say this?
> 
> I don't know much about how many 'cash jobs' exist out there. I know that waiters and service industry people get cash tips, but those are usually quite small and nobody is getting rich off restaurant tips. I presume you mean something different?


I know someone who makes $3,500/per month in cash and collecting CREB/CRB too. 

Go to ON and you would find how big the underground economy is.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

scorpion_ca said:


> I know someone who makes $3,500/per month in cash and collecting CREB/CRB too.
> 
> Go to ON and you would find how big the underground economy is.


Yikes. That's way beyond the kind of tips and occasional earnings that I was imagining.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Ways around the law........artists selling products for cash, construction workers, people delivering pizzas,........

But at some point you spend more time and money chasing the cheaters than it is worth. 

All could have been avoided by giving the money to everyone over age of 18 and adding it to their income taxes.

At the outset, I advocated for a one time payment and let people decide how to spend it. 

The NDP would have supported it so I think Trudeau failed there.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Our kids and grandkids will be paying for CERB scam and other Liberal "initiatives" for a very long time


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

sags said:


> Ways around the law........artists selling products for cash, construction workers, people delivering pizzas,........
> 
> But at some point you spend more time and money chasing the cheaters than it is worth.
> 
> ...


Gov't C19 handouts ... Neither my wife or I received any and we're not in the least unhappy that we didn't. I know lots of wealthy individuals who received some of the handouts. One of them has lived in the USA for the past 35 years and gets a small amount of OAS, so he and his wife got the handout. I know disabled people (both provincially disabled and by CRA) who didn't miss a day of work but got lots of handouts and extra wage top ups. I know of a low income senior who got both provincial and federal handouts. None of these peoples lives changed in the least and in fact most are saving money because of the pandemic. My own adult kids worked throughout but still got some of handouts. I believe our national employment rate was maintained at 86% - unemployment peaked at 14%. Yes definitely some people needed help, target help to them not just shovel it off the back of the truck and teach people to work all the angles to get gov't handouts. I talked directly to one man. A fully employed low wage earner who said he was wanting his employer to lay him off because he'd get more on CERB. Now were hearing reports of workers not wanting work! Canada and the provinces could have done more for those in need by spending 25% of the amount they have, rather than giving to anyone wanting what people are calling "free money". In my opinion those who needed the help, are going to be hurt the most in the future, because the govt overspent so much. Having to pay interest on the debt will cause at some point the reduction of govt services and who gets hurt the most by that.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Liberal government has changed the qualification from "net" to "gross" income of $5,000 in 2019, and eliminates the required CERB debt benefit repayment.

They also extend a one year interest free repayment period for others.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Retiredguy said:


> Gov't C19 handouts ... Neither my wife or I received any and we're not in the least unhappy that we didn't. I know lots of wealthy individuals who received some of the handouts. One of them has lived in the USA for the past 35 years and gets a small amount of OAS, so he and his wife got the handout. I know disabled people (both provincially disabled and by CRA) who didn't miss a day of work but got lots of handouts and extra wage top ups. I know of a low income senior who got both provincial and federal handouts. None of these peoples lives changed in the least and in fact most are saving money because of the pandemic. My own adult kids worked throughout but still got some of handouts. I believe our national employment rate was maintained at 86% - unemployment peaked at 14%. Yes definitely some people needed help, target help to them not just shovel it off the back of the truck and teach people to work all the angles to get gov't handouts. I talked directly to one man. A fully employed low wage earner who said he was wanting his employer to lay him off because he'd get more on CERB. Now were hearing reports of workers not wanting work! Canada and the provinces could have done more for those in need by spending 25% of the amount they have, rather than giving to anyone wanting what people are calling "free money". In my opinion those who needed the help, are going to be hurt the most in the future, because the govt overspent so much. Having to pay interest on the debt will cause at some point the reduction of govt services and who gets hurt the most by that.


As usual waste of tax money by Liberals!
Trump, as usual, did much smarter by giving Stimulus cheques to majority of Americans


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> 3. The fact that there are now nearly half a million people now in a tough situation.


Trudeau solved this problem. The government is not asking for money back from people on the gross vs net issue.

Are you happy @MrMatt ? Let me guess ... you will never be happy.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Trudeau solved this problem. The government is not asking for money back from people on the gross vs net issue.
> 
> Are you happy @MrMatt ? Let me guess ... you will never be happy.


It's difficult to be happy with Liberal dictatorship!


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> It's difficult to be happy with Liberal dictatorship!


No gibor, you are confused. Your king Trump _tried_ to become dictator (but failed because he's a loser), and your king Putin is *definitely* a dictator.

Your other favourite guy Netanyahu has been in power for 14 years... not exactly a dictator, but man oh man does he cling to power while avoiding answering for crimes he's been charged with.

On the other hand, here in Canada we enjoy a democracy. Our PMs don't have life terms, and there is healthy opposition.

You're praising Putin, Trump and Netanyahu while calling Trudeau a dictator? I don't think you believe in democracy at all.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Trudeau solved this problem. The government is not asking for money back from people on the gross vs net issue.
> 
> Are you happy @MrMatt ? Let me guess ... you will never be happy.


Happier, but now there are people who would have qualified under these rules who didn't get money.
It's fundamentally unfair to continuously change the rules, where people in the same circumstances get treated differently.





james4beach said:


> On the other hand, here in Canada we enjoy a democracy. Our PMs don't have life terms, and there is healthy opposition.


Our opposition isn't healthy.

They tried to investigate the PMs alleged ethics violation, and the PM shut it down.
That's a problem.

When the PM kills the investigation into his activities, that's an obvious conflict of interest.

Now it will split into mostly partisan.
Liberals don't want an investigation, because there is nothing to see and it's a waste of time and money.
Opposition wants an investigation, because if they find dirt, it should be politically valuable.
Realistically, with Trudeau waving billions at Toronto, I wonder what they could find that would make him unelectable.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> No gibor, you are confused. Your king Trump _tried_ to become dictator (but failed because he's a loser), and your king Putin is *definitely* a dictator.
> 
> Your other favourite guy Netanyahu has been in power for 14 years... not exactly a dictator, but man oh man does he cling to power while avoiding answering for crimes he's been charged with.
> 
> ...


I don't think you understand democracy at all .
Both Bibi and Trump were under investigation, RCMP promised to start investigation against JT crimes after election.... obviously, nothing was done.
I predicted it and posted on twitter just before election that no way RCMP will investigate JT, it's like KGB investigating Leonid Brezhnev 
So, enjoy Liberal dictatorship !


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> Both Bibi and Trump were under investigation


Trump tried to overthrow the US government, attempted to install himself as dictator even before the election started.

He still doesn't acknowledge that he lost the election. These are the kinds of lunatics you support and endorse.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Trump tried to overthrow the US government, attempted to install himself as dictator even before the election started.
> 
> He still doesn't acknowledge that he lost the election. These are the kinds of lunatics you support and endorse.


Last US election was the biggest fraud ever


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

^ looks like we have a Putin-loving, Trump-worshipping conspiracy theorist


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

"real democrat" JT just kicked out of Liberal party who doesn't comply with his dictatorships: Jody Wilson-Raybould , Jane Philpott, Ramesh Sangha etc


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The first foreign leader called by President Biden..........Justin Trudeau.

Sitting by the phone for 3 weeks and still waiting........Bibi.

Just saying.....


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## vonMarburg (Jul 15, 2017)

MrMatt said:


> Maybe they should have just given it to everyone, instead of this mess of special interest groups.
> 
> Who would have thought a hastily thrown together program with unclear criteria could be problematic?
> 
> ...


No one was forced to take the money. If they didn't need it they shouldn't have accepted it. If they did need it as a financial buffer from ruination due to job loss, etc, then they can expect to pay taxes on income (the only difference being that this portion of a person's income was an emergency handout and not earned). Sounds fair to me.


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