# Bitcoins..Ponzi scheme for greedy investors?



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Interesting to hear what has happened to one of the Bitcoin virtual currency exchanges in the news (MtGOX Japan?), where it mysteriously shut down it's website Yesterday, leaving
"investors" unable to get at their virtual currency. 

"If you buy bitcoins, you should buy keeping in mind that the value could be zero the day after."

What do the traditional CMF members think of this new "monetary concept", where you could be a virtual millionaire one day, by investing your savings to buy this bit coins and
then a possibly a pauper next day?


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## Video_Frank (Aug 2, 2013)

I'm going with Warren Buffett on this one: “Never invest in a business you cannot understand.”


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

Not that new.... Dutch tulip bulbs, Confederate dollars, Pokemon cards... Folks have to keep rediscovering this stuff, I guess. 

The real winners with Bitcoin were money launderers, from what I can see.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Who knows? I am in the Buffet camp. I need to understand what I am investing in. For sure the folks first in and out by now have made their money.

Some folks where we live have been buying Iraqi dinars. It is affinity fraud. They have been promised huge returns when the currency gets revalued. So they are buying boxes of the stuff. They do not even know if it is real or counterfeit, let alone if and where they can sell it. I might make interesting wallpaper at some point when it yellows or fades.

I recently read an article that Egypt Pounds are the most recent scam-buy a boxcar load and reap the benefits when the currency is revalued. NOT!


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Does this mean that the money I won at _Monopoly_ last week is worthless? :disillusionment:


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I have a different theory on the origins and purpose of bitcoins.

It is a little tinfoil, I know...........but that is where some digging around has lead me.

The theory behind a bitcoin-like currency was being discussed back in 1996 by the NSA. A white paper was produced that was suspiciously close in detail to the present bitcoin protocol.

http://realcurrencies.wordpress.com/2013/06/21/is-the-national-security-agency-behind-bitcoin/

White paper here...........http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.805/articles/money/nsamint/nsamint.htm

I believe that Satoshi Nakamoto is a psuedo-name for a group of highly trained black box computer hackers and programmers who worked for the NSA.

The NSA has been trying to track terrorists, drug dealers, gun smugglers and money laundering for decades, often it seemed just one step behind them. Eric Snowden revealed the NSA has far more capability than previously thought, and the willingness to use it.

The criminals seeking anonymity have deployed various ways to transfer funds undetected. The domain name boom in the 90s and early 2000s provided one way.

A person would register a domain name in one country........and someone else in another country would "buy" the domain name using an third party escrow.

The buyer would sent their money to the escrow company to purchase the domain name and the seller would receive the money from the escrow company for the sale of the domain name.

The problem was that the domain names were worthless names..........jacked up in price to silly levels. After awhile people started to take notice of the sales of weak domain names for large amounts of money. Eventually the US government caught on and required all personal information from the escrow company regarding the sales. The sales suddenly stopped and the buyer disappeared.

Back to bitcoin.

Maybe someone at the NSA got the bright idea............instead of chasing them around.......why don't we bring the "bad guys" to us, by implementing a supposed anonymous system they will be attracted to use. They will believe they have complete anonymity, and all their transactions will be traceable if we know their private keys........and we will have a "back door" to the system providing us with all the information. 

The NSA released the bitcoin protocol under the name Satoshi Nakomoto........promoted it on hacker forums and off it went.

The criminals just couldn't resist the temptation of moving funds secretly (they thought..........this is just too easy).

It has been highly successful.........given the Silk Road website arrests..............and the arrests that continue to follow.

Lots of information was gained from that one website alone..............and we don't know how much more information the NSA has gathered from other places.

The problem is............it was too successful.

Main stream people got caught up in it and invested money in it............and the NSA couldn't admit their involvement.

So, Satoshi Nakamoto keeps 1,000,000 bitcoins for himself, several million more among his closest allies, Silk Road gets hacked and 140,000 bitcoins are seized, Mt. Gox gets hacked and 740,000 bitcoins are lost...........and on and on........sweeping many of the bitcoins back into the nest from whence they came.

Eventually enough money will be lost, the public will lose trust in bitcoin, and people will move on to something else.

The theory isn't too far from a well publicized sting set up a few years ago. A bunch of gangsters were hiding out and the police wanted to round them up without getting involved in gun battles in neighborhoods, so they sent all the gangsters a letter that said they had won a big prize and had to appear at a certain place at a certain time to claim it. When the gangsters showed up..........they were arrested.

If my theory is true...............well played NSA............well played.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Satoshi Nakamoto..........kind of like Kaiser Soze (The Usual Suspects).

_The character Keyser Soze is a rarely seen, nearly mythical crime kingpin who is involved in drugs, murder, and possibly international terrorism._

Maybe the NSA group were Kevin Spacey fans.

In any event, this bitcoin saga could make a heck of a movie................


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> I have a different theory on the origins and purpose of bitcoins.
> If my theory is true...............well played NSA............well played.


Well explained, even if it may be a theory. Something is definitely not right with this "money laundering scheme". It's like dealing in an underground economy with cash only, nothing that can be
traced or taxed as the case may be. Just like those gold mining scams in South America, but a bit more subtle, because unsuspecting ordinary "investors", thinking
that if they get in on the front end of this thing, they can become millionaires because the bitcoin value keeps going up and up. 
The real problem here is that they want real currency to buy these things..and if theyfall into the trap..sooner or later they will lose all the real money they "invested" buying into this scheme.



> Once reality sinks in, people are going to suffer, not only because of their losses but also because of the dream. And there is a far greater issue here: Bitcoin’s failure will provide regulators with the ideal excuse to clamp down on free market units. The whole thing is starting to look so blatant, it’s probably not unfair to suggest this is just another problem-reaction-solution operation. Considering its shady designer, CIA involvement, recent news that the Government is already looking to get it under control and what is at stake, Bitcoin has become a major liability to free market monetary reform.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

It's only one Bitcoin exchange that has shut down. Re there are a couple more ...will be interesting to see how long they will last before the whole thing collapses.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Mt.Gox was one more on a growing list of defunct exchanges.

Today, another one announced they are unable to trade in USD and will only trade in Euros, and a bitcoin trading platform announced they are very sorry but they can't reimburse losses to the traders when their software collapsed. They said the losses were too staggering for the company to compensate the investors.

It is all Mickey Mouse today.........and Mt.Gox changing ownership to other Mickey Mouse owners won't make any difference. New exchanges set up by others with no business experience, knowledge or money will also be Mickey Mouse operations.

To become credible.........bitcoin needs a "real" company to open an exchange...........a big financial institution for example.

But that would mean government oversight and regulation............and there wouldn't be anonymous transactions anymore.

Bitcoin enthusiasts are opposed to the very things they need to survive.

Unknown persons running a "company" from a computer in a small room in Bulgaria............just wont do it.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

sags said:


> I have a different theory on the origins and purpose of bitcoins ...
> 
> The theory isn't too far from a well publicized sting set up a few years ago. A bunch of gangsters were hiding out and the police wanted to round them up without getting involved in gun battles in neighborhoods, so they sent all the gangsters a letter that said they had won a big prize and had to appear at a certain place at a certain time to claim it. When the gangsters showed up..........they were arrested.



sags i was reading your post with interest until i came to the last paragraph lol.

somehow it's difficult to believe the police could send letters to mobsters inviting em to come claim a prize at a certain place at a certain time & just like that the mob would be dumb enough to show :biggrin:


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

^ As I recall, they weren't "Gangsters", per se, but rather a bunch of individual petty crooks with outstanding warrants......but yes, they _were_ dumb enough to fall for it.


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> sags i was reading your post with interest until i came to the last paragraph lol.
> 
> somehow it's difficult to believe the police could send letters to mobsters inviting em to come claim a prize at a certain place at a certain time & just like that the mob would be dumb enough to show :biggrin:


Oh, it does happen. Maybe not mobsters, but dumb criminals with outstanding warrants:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiLX4bkKguA


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

That's hilarious.........people are "registering" and then cheering as they go into the room for their "prize".

Nice to see the cops have a sense of humor too............

Maybe my memory fails me, but the one I seem to remember involved some street gang members and a free vacation trip or something.

I could be wrong and mixing up different events though.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i guess it's different in montreal, apparently at the big mobster funerals lots of plainclothes detectives sit around the square outside that huge cathedral in Little Italy in unmarked cars, working their binoculars discreetly.

they are so going to l.o.v.e. google glass. Meanwhile the newspapers publish pictures of their furtive viewing activity.

but someone told me that spying on the funeral attendees is meaningless work on the part of the police because the real mafia leaders won't come out of hiding & they absolutely never go to the funerals ...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Some would say........the really smart criminals work on Wall Street.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Bitcoin..virtual money in a virtual exchange (no bricks and mortar banks that you can go to ... is ( or maybe I should say..WAS?) an attempt at a universal free market economy without any government regulation or backing. 
No gov't is going to back bitcoin , because they all have their own form of currency traded on world exchanges. 
So this monetary concept, in a way is an underground economy that is theperfect channel for money laundering and criminal activity as well.
What made it so attractive to the "investors" out there..is the high rate of valuation based on trading of these things...(like the price of gold and silver...

..some of us may still remember what happened to the price of gold and silver in the 80s when the prices soared for both during the "silver bullion boom", the price of silver that was trading normally at $6 a troy ounce increased in value 712% to nearly$50 an ounce towards the end of the boom. Speculators expecting to buy up as much as they could while prices were "still low", then sell at a later point rushed out, (some borrowing or using their life savings), to buy gold and silver bullion thinking that the bubble would continue..but....then disaster struck!

The Hunt Bros buying on leverage(to corner the market) instigated the collapse of the silver market and caused panic as prices of an ounce of silver
dropped in 4 days from 48.70 down to about $5 or $6 dollars before it finally stabilized. The Hunt Bros eventually went bankrupt and speculators that bought towards the tail end..lost their investments.

Bitcoin is just another modern version of a highly speculative attempt for those that came in early to reap their profits and bow out. The fact that you need real money to
buy bitcoins which then are valued in real money says it all. I saw a video clip of the first bitcoin "ATM" installed somewhere in Toronto and the camera shows somebody feeding
in real money into it.

How Bitcoin works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx9zgZCMqXE


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Despite it all............bitcoins are currently priced at $580 on the exchanges still open.

Some would say that shows the strength of the bitcoin protocol and movement.

Others would say the price is manipulated internally by the exchanges by "selling" from one wallet to another, creating the illusion of high prices and higher volumes.......to show strength and entice new money.

In time..........we will see which side is right.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Bitcoin is CryptoCurrency and highly complex based on algorithms and transaction ordering..scary! One large security hole is the order of transactions (transaction security) going through the network.
If the transaction order is not sequential, one transaction can arrive before the correct one..and that could lead to fraud, if the ones that started this concept decide to "skim" from the transaction. 
Fraudster "Alice" (does a double spend attack) sends a transaction to "Bob", who waits for confirmation and then ships the product to "Alice". If "Alice can replace the longer chain of transactions
she sent to Bob to someone else ..his bitcoin "money" will effectively get erased..but the math problems and hash tags on based on digital signatures and transactions. 

"About 21 million coins will be created..Miners will get transaction fees;..insulation from gov't meddling...hopefully cheaper to send money over credit card fees"..many people join pools called "mining pools"...


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## richard (Jun 20, 2013)

It is sequential, that is pretty much the biggest idea in Bitcoin. But it's all open so anyone is free to make their own version that works differently - you could make one that has this problem to show what would happen.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> sags i was reading your post with interest until i came to the last paragraph lol.
> 
> somehow it's difficult to believe the police could send letters to mobsters inviting em to come claim a prize at a certain place at a certain time & just like that the mob would be dumb enough to show :biggrin:


that has been repeated with success all over the place .. they often use tickets to major sporting events as bait .. it still works


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

lets remember that there are a couple of major groups driving bitcoin

the first is speculators who see an "opportunity" to cash in on publicity or or novelty or whatever ?
they are trading in and out of bitcoin just like people trade penny stocks

but there is a more long term and dedicated group that are investing money in the platforms and infrastructure that wll hopefully eventaully make bitcoin both more stable, dependable and useful

those of us who buy and sell stuff to people around the world have much to gain from the success of bitcoin since it will exert pressure on every other currency movement scheme out there

why should we only be able to use visa or td bank or paypal to send and receive money ?

bitcoin has the potential to be very good for consumers as it will drive innovation and competition

speculators are another matter, they will reap their rewards or the whirlwind


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

One thing not often mentioned. To verify that a Bitcoin is genuine, every bitcoin contains a block chain that documents every transaction it was involved in, going back to its creation. So, if you use a Bitcoin anyone who has access to the block chain can find out about it. Without the block chain the Bitcoin is unverifiable as genuine and therefore worthless.

This ties in nicely with the conspiracy theory on page 1.

Unless I am missing something the people who think using Bitcoin makes their transaction anonymous are living in a fool's paradise.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> One thing not often mentioned. To verify that a Bitcoin is genuine, every bitcoin contains a block chain that documents every transaction it was involved in, going back to its creation. So, if you use a Bitcoin anyone who has access to the block chain can find out about it. Without the block chain the Bitcoin is unverifiable as genuine and therefore worthless.
> 
> This ties in nicely with the conspiracy theory on page 1.


what you are missing however is that the power of the blockchain comes from crowdsourcing ... it is being used and monitored by millions of people and this gives it tremendous integrity and makes it harder to corrupt 



> Unless I am missing something the people who think using Bitcoin makes their transaction anonymous are living in a fool's paradise.


 if you can crack into the blockchain and make an identification you can have some success but generally it is extremely difficult

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygre...sted-buying-drugs-on-silk-roads-black-market/

forbes experimented by giving a researcher their addresses and she was able to get quite a bit of data but it all comes down to how smart you, the owner of coins are, you must know what you are doing ... if you work carefully you can use them with near total anonymity



> And the final lesson of Meiklejohn’s experiment is that Bitcoin users seeking privacy should be careful about revealing their addresses in public or using a subpoenable Bitcoin service like Coinbase that might connect their Bitcoin addresses and real names. *If we had taken the extra consideration of shuffling our bitcoin expenditures through other addresses created with desktop-based wallet software, or gone to the further effort of sending them through a bitcoin “laundry service” such as Bitlaundry, Bitmix or Bitcoinlaundry, tracing them would have become much harder or even impossible.*


also, as the forbes story was pointed out, silk road sold all kinds of legal things so if the fbi found you via your silk road deposit account, so what ? .. they can prove nothing


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

I see this Bitcoin thing as an attempt at a free market economy not tied into any gov'ts or gov't intervention. 
That is good if things continue to evolve on a positive note and human greed and corruption doesn't enter into the equation.

Unlike a traditional bank that is supported by the gov't, and at least your savings are protected/insured, you are on your own and left to the vagaries of others who use Bitcoin.
It's tempting when you see how much these bitcoins appreciate in value, as more and more people start buying and using it..but as the recent collapse of this Mt.Gox has indicated in the last few days, when you are involved in cybermoney and virtual banking...you can win or lose at this game. It's a high risk game they are playing here. 

I also deal with virtual bank (PCF) but at least it uses the resources of CIBC and within it's legal constraints. True, that my money in savings or TFSA accounts earns next to nothing and the gov't takes their share by taxing any interested earned on regular savings or GICs..but at least I know I'm protected from financial loss up to $100k and I can sleep at night.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

carverman said:


> ......if things continue to evolve on a positive note and human greed and corruption doesn't enter into the equation.


Well...good luck with _that._ :highly_amused:


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ Yup. Any successful system has to be able to withstand human weakness.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

fatcat said:


> > or gone to the further effort of sending them through a *bitcoin “laundry service” such as Bitlaundry, Bitmix or Bitcoinlaundry*, tracing them would have become much harder or even impossible.
> 
> 
> That's one of the main objectives with Bitcoin...build up your "virtual wealth" without any gov't intervention or taxation...just wait until the corrupted Russian/Ukrainian oligarch get involved with BitCoin.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

carverman said:


> That is good if things continue to evolve on a positive note and human greed and corruption doesn't enter into the equation.


first, lets be clear, human greed and corruption enters into everything that involves money ... everything



> I can sleep at night.


if this is a priority, then you should stay away from bitcoin ... you are clearly more of td bank guy, nothing wrong with that, i am too


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## richard (Jun 20, 2013)

carverman said:


> Unlike a traditional bank that is supported by the gov't, and at least your savings are protected/insured, you are on your own and left to the vagaries of others who use Bitcoin.
> It's tempting when you see how much these bitcoins appreciate in value, as more and more people start buying and using it..but as the recent collapse of this Mt.Gox has indicated in the last few days, when you are involved in cybermoney and virtual banking...you can win or lose at this game. It's a high risk game they are playing here.


The other side is that no one will be made to pay for others' mistakes with Bitcoin (unless they made the mistake of trusting someone who wasn't trustworthy). Your savings account is fully protected, but when the bank loses money and the government steps in and raises taxes, where does it come from? Not to turn this into a conspiracy theory, that is a low probability to begin with and sometimes worth the cost since we get a pretty good financial system out of it. But that's one motivation for people to take the risk since they have a lot more say in that risk.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

richard said:


> *The other side is that no one will be made to pay for others' mistakes with Bitcoin *(unless they made the mistake of trusting someone who wasn't trustworthy).


Sorry but I disagree...take the bankruptcy of MtGox in Japan..a highly industrialized nation with a strong GDP...what went wrong here?

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/feb/28/bitcoin-mtgox-bankruptcy-japan

"The “weakness” referred to by Karpeles is thought to be an issue related to “transaction malleability“, a loophole in the bitcoin system which was exploited by malicious actors to get free bitcoins from the site."

or.. maybe it was an inside job..."profit taking" sortofspeak 

http://falkvinge.net/2014/02/28/the...es-reveal-billion-dollar-heist-as-inside-job/




> This timeline, when seen from a zoomed-out perspective like this, paints a clear picture of a company – or at least a management – t*hat was well aware of an insolvency, trying to actively deceive the community and shareholders, and profit personally from doing so*.


When human greed comes into play there are enough of these "Cyber criminals"....aka ..the new bank robbers, to ensure that a fool and his money are soon parted.


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## richard (Jun 20, 2013)

Yes, that is what the second part of my sentence referred to.


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## kevinlk (Jul 9, 2009)

Regarding the steady price, one can wonder how much buy volume is created by those kind of viruses:

http://www.zdnet.com/cryptolockers-crimewave-a-trail-of-millions-in-laundered-bitcoin-7000024579/


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Ayn Rand was never right.

Centralization and government regulation are needed to abate fraud.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

sags said:


> Ayn Rand was never right.
> 
> Centralization and government regulation are needed to abate fraud.


problem is, we are all heading down the slope to the lowest common denominator ... look at the cbc financial advisor thread ... eventually, we are going to see licensing and regulation of financial advisors, yet another layer of laws and bureaucracy that we will all pay for

we are sliding down a regulatory slope that is structured for the dumbest and most helpless people in the population

it's easy to just say "centralize and regulate" but there is a cost for doing this and it is not a small one ...

i agree about ayn rand though, awful writer and even worse philosopher


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Lots of news about bitcoins these days........

Mt Gox goes bankrupt.............or did they?

Newsweek outs the creator, Satoshi Nakamota...........or did they?

Hundreds of millions of dollars worth of "old" bitcoins that have been sitting in wallets for years...........suddenly moving all over the place.

Is it the Silk Road stash being moved by the Feds, Mt. Gox owner moving them out, somebody else..........??

The crypto detectives are on it............and the discussion is fascinating.


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## kevinlk (Jul 9, 2009)

Another exchange (Poloniex) losing 13% of their bitcoins, as well. MtGox had all their customer data stolen by hackers too. 

I don't believe in Bitcoin, but been following the drama for close to a year (when prices were still in double-digits). Lots of entertainment to be found there, for free.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This is a really good article on Bitcoin, highly recommended reading. Very insightful:
http://www.tfmkts.com/the-t-report-the-3-rules-of-bitcoin/

Rule #1: Bitcoin Is Smarter Than Me
Rule #2: There Are No Rules
Rule #3: Bitcoin’s Advantages are Questionable


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## richard (Jun 20, 2013)

The author of that article is certainly right to say that others know more than him.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

NSA involvement used to be abject speculation, but hardly a day passes by now, that more ties to the NSA or highly classified US military work aren't revealed.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

"BITCOIN" FRAUD ARTISTS ARE INFILTRATING the internet. 

Just heard today on CTV (Canada AM) of a Vancouver man that thought this bitcoin was the currency of the future. He searched online and found a seller called "Crowd Coin".
The idiot hands over $1200 online by epurchase (ecommerce)...forgetting the most important thing to remember that...
on the internet, you can be anybody you want to be..with lots of phony sites set up by fraudsters to convince you that you should part with your money.

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/risky-business-vancouver-man-burned-by-bitcoin-vendor-1.1717978


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

carverman said:


> a Vancouver man that thought this bitcoin was the currency of the future.


Well, it did (slightly) impact _his_ future. :biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

It had to happen sooner or later..as they say, in this world, there are two things you can't escape from....death and the taxman.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bitcoin-to-be-taxed-in-u-s-as-property-not-currency-1.2586764

and if you are a bitcoin investor...you can't escape CRA either...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bitcoins-aren-t-tax-exempt-revenue-canada-says-1.1395075


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Bump this old Bitcoin thread to note that the BOC is not asleep at the wheel. Interesting artcile from them titled 'Money in a Digital World'. We may yet see some type of "authorized" bitcoin for our spending pleasure (after tax of course): 
http://www.bankofcanada.ca/2014/11/money-digital-world/


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Somehow I doubt it's going to gain a lot of popularity amongst the masses here. 



> In the case of Bitcoin, not many people want to dance. This is because it has serious flaws when it comes to satisfying the three main characteristics of money. While a number of merchants may be accepting Bitcoin, there is still a big risk that if you acquire bitcoins you won’t be able to find someone to accept them later when you want to spend them.


and the caveat emptor with bitcoins still remains...back to the cocoa/coffee beans..at least you can eat or drink them.:biggrin:


> There’s also no getting around the fact that cryptocurrencies are very volatile and therefore unreliable as a store of value.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The only thing wrong with current payment methods is it takes 3-4 business days to process an online payment.

This is utter nonsense, and I suspect the financial institutions earn interest on the money for those days.

Money is taken immediately from the sender's bank account..........why does it not show up immediately in the receiving bank account ?

The world doesn't need bitcoins. It needs to speed up the processes already available.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Don't misunderstand, I'm not an advocate of bitcoins. I just found the article interesting as to the BOC's perspective. Also interesting to read about Kenya's M-Pesa (mobile-money). I hadn't realized how ubiquitous it was, 2 million e-money transactions each day, $5 billion/yr. It didn't exist when we were in Tanzania in '08.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> The only thing wrong with current payment methods is it takes 3-4 business days to process an online payment.
> 
> This is utter nonsense, and I suspect the financial institutions earn interest on the money for those days.
> 
> ...


Exactly! ^
I make an online payment on my CC on Monday, Nov 17th....my bank takes the money out of my account on the 17th,
but the payment doesn't show up until 4 or 5 days on my CC account held by another bank, especially if it's a weekend or holiday.
I understand that while bank workers may have those days off, computers don't, so it shouldn't require 3 to 5 days to process my payment and send it on it's way. 

Maybe the banks have batch processing for the credit card companies? So rather than pay immediately, they collect
the money in a special batch account along with the CC number/CC company ID, then send it off, along with any other
payments to the same CC company at some specific day.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Don't misunderstand, I'm not an advocate of bitcoins. I just found the article interesting as to the BOC's perspective. Also interesting to read about Kenya's M-Pesa (mobile-money). I hadn't realized how ubiquitous it was, 2 million e-money transactions each day, $5 billion/yr. It didn't exist when we were in Tanzania in '08.


There are all kinds of new monetary schemes going on these days.
One bank in Canada, is evaluating a wristband CC chip...no actual physical card, just a chip implanted on a wrist band that happens to monitor your pulse for personal ID. So in the future, you won't need moneyat all? ..just go around and tap your wrist on any POS terminal, or bank machine to make payments or withdraw what?
Do you still need physical money to be exchanged at this point? Suppose you want to buy some food at a farmers market, or some used vehicle in a private sale..
bit coins aren't going to do it, because the value of the item is not expressed in bitcoins but $$.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> Exactly! ^
> ...
> Maybe the banks have * batch processing *for the credit card companies? So rather than pay immediately, they collect
> the money in a special batch account along with the CC number/CC company ID, then send it off, along with any other
> payments to the same CC company at some specific day.


 ... I think that's what it is .. not "real time" transactions. OTOH ... fraudsters are so much quicker in draining (aka efficient) your bank account than the cc can process their transactions.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> There are all kinds of new monetary schemes going on these days.
> One bank in Canada, is evaluating a wristband CC chip...no actual physical card, just a chip implanted on a wrist band that happens to monitor your pulse for personal ID. So in the future, you won't need moneyat all? ..just go around and tap your wrist on any POS terminal, or bank machine to make payments or withdraw what?
> Do you still need physical money to be exchanged at this point? Suppose you want to buy some food at a farmers market, or some used vehicle in a private sale..
> bit coins aren't going to do it, because the value of the item is not expressed in bitcoins but $$.


 ... yep, just "schemes" ... hmmm...first I have heard of a "monitor your pulse for personal ID to squeeze a buck from you"? And so the above is another extra gadget ... why not just use your thumbprint or retina reading to "ID" you for payment? They have these biometrics at the airport already.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... yep, just "schemes" ... hmmm...first I have heard of a "monitor your pulse for personal ID to squeeze a buck from you"? And so the above is another extra gadget ... why not just use your thumbprint or retina reading to "ID" you for payment? They have these biometrics at the airport already.


Biometrics are a big thing now in personal identification. Obviously the banks are way behind in this kind of technology.
I wonder if pulse monitoring thing with these experimental CC chip wristbands is not just to make sure you are still "warm and vertical" to make your payments? :biggrin:



> The bank has paired with Toronto-based technology developer Bionym to test a wristband called Nymi (pronounced Nim-ee), which identifies owners through their unique heartbeat and then lets them charge purchases to their credit card.
> The device looks like a watch, and will soon grace the wrists of 250 RBC clients and staff under a pilot project in Toronto that runs through February.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...t-toronto-company-s-nymi-technology-1.2829259

Of course, cyber thieves don't make CC payments.:biggrin:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> Biometrics are a big thing now in personal identification. Obviously the banks are way behind in this kind of technology.
> * I wonder if pulse monitoring thing with these experimental CC chip wristbands is not just to make sure you are still "warm and vertical" to make your payments*? :biggrin: :


 ... :biggrin-new: ... great point! 



> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...t-toronto-company-s-nymi-technology-1.2829259
> 
> The bank has paired with Toronto-based technology developer Bionym to test a wristband called Nymi (pronounced Nim-ee), which identifies owners through their unique heartbeat and then lets them charge purchases to their credit card.
> 
> ...


 ... is RBC for real? :rolleyes2: I feel sorry for their employees. 



> Of course, cyber thieves don't make CC payments.:biggrin:


 ... very true.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... :biggrin-new: ... great point!
> 
> ... is RBC for real? :rolleyes2: I feel sorry for their employees.
> .


What is the real benefit to the banks (in this case RBC) to eventually replace their CC with wrist band technology?

Maybe this biometric experiment proves useful...but again, what the probability of the thief who steals the CC wristband with the chip having the same heartbeat? 

There has to be some other security besides heart rate. However, an older person can have heart issues that modify the heart rate somewhat. The person that steals the wristband could be a lot younger,with a different heat rate too.

That also depends on whether the sample is taken at rest or during a brisk walk to the ATM or in case of a Black Friday sale..to the mall and fight with the crowds, which will definitely increase your adrenaline and heart rate. 

I would think that the PIN is still required on the "tap n' go" POS terminals. 

Right now, my CC card is accepted automatically by putting the chip down on some POS cash terminals such as Loblaws, with others you need to insert the card and punch in the PIN.

So if the banks want added protection against CC fraud, the wrist strap credit card on automatic scan the NFC (Near Field Communications) chip to read the imbedded data in the wristband, would also verify the heart rate as well, before determining the card is not stolen ( or comprimised) by a normal thief , or a cyber thief, as we have heard in the H-D and Target attacks. 

Today the trend is to have CC identity storage in the latest version of iphone 6. You have to use specific Apple apps for this purpose, but CC technology is evolving to keep one step ahead of the cyber criminals. 



read: *More secure payments*
https://www.apple.com/iphone-6/apple-pay/



> For adults 18 and older, a normal resting heart rate is between 60 and 100 beats per minute (bpm), depending on the person's physical condition. For children ages 6 to 15, the normal resting heart rate is between 70 and 100 bpm.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

ahem...As I predicted a few months ago...
...."tank yew..tank yew very much.":biggrin:



> A Hong Kong Bitcoin exchange has allegedly shut its doors with as much as £254 million of investors’ funds missing, according to a report from CoinDesk.





> However, there are now fears that MyCoin operated a pyramid or “ponzi scheme,” which later paid investments out to early clients to create — illegally — the illusion that the company was seeing huge returns. One client said she was “told by those at higher tiers [of the scheme] that we can get our money back if we find new clients.” *Tech In Asia is already labelling MyCoin a “pyramid scheme” and a “scam.”*


https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/report-hong-kong-bitcoin-exchange-130347523.html


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

How do people so dumb end up with 1 Million dollars minimum to invest in these schemes ?

Bitcoin has been reduced to a few diehard believers buying and selling to each other, with some expert traders manipulating the market and fleecing them.

People will hand over hundreds of millions of dollars on the promise of getting richer. 

Greed..............the Achilles heel of the wealthy.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I see many casinos and poker rooms pushing bitcoin for deposits ,in fact it was a poker room that made the decision for me way back to buy a few. Never would I keep anything significant in any of these 'e-wallet' types. I will continue watching this one from the sidelines .


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

bitcoin is going through some predictably tough times but virtual currency is thriving ...

virtual currency isn't an investment vehicle, try to remember that


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

fatcat said:


> bitcoin is going through some predictably tough times *but virtual currency is thriving *...
> 
> virtual currency isn't an investment vehicle, try to remember that


 ... where? other than the virtual world. Until it's considered "legal-tender", I would stay away. Or maybe not ... do they take Bitcoins for fleaBay purchases? :biggrin:


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

Beaver101 said:


> ... where? other than the virtual world. Until it's considered "legal-tender", I would stay away. Or maybe not ... do they take Bitcoins for fleaBay purchases? :biggrin:


if you have no use for it then, yes, presumably you would stay away ... it's not an investment, it's a currency

as far as eBay goes, they take what they want unless a government forces them to take something ... i would love it if they took bitcoin since it would me and my buyers a lot more options


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