# Car batteries



## james4beach

A family member's car has a dead battery and it's over 5 years old, so instead of jumping it again, I thought I'd replace it (this is Winnipeg and you don't want to take chances with winter coming).

I shopped around at Canadian Tire and Partsource. It seems that Canadian Tire only carries the Motomaster brand, for example the Eliminator line which is higher end. Partsource has various things and I found a few MagnaPower brand batteries available for this older Toyota.

Does anyone have experience with MagnaPower batteries? I picked up one with 640 CCA, 95 RC, 3 year warranty for $141 which seems competitive with the similarly rated Canadian Tire one. This seems like a stronger rating than the Toyota original battery which had a 540 CCA rating.

Hopefully it's a reasonably good battery. Any experience with these?


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## m3s

When I replaced mine a few years ago some quick research pointed to Costco. They had lower prices, longer warranty and name brands. I ended up with a Kirkland battery that was a rebrand of a name brand at lower price/longer warranty 100 months prorated. If you already have a Costco membership it was a good deal but it might have changed since then

Believe it or not walmart has good deals on automotive stuff like batteries. I found before that small shops would have older batteries that sat on the shelf for years already whereas places like walmart have fresher batteries if that's where more people shop. You can see the battery date on the label in a code like tires


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## lonewolf :)

When I bought my last battery a few years back consumer reports gave Walmart & Costco batteries some of the best reviews. Some say if let battery goes to long without replacing it can be hard on the alternator true or false ?


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## Eder

I replaced the 6 batteries in my motor home with AGM batterys ordered from Costco online. AGM will normally last up to 10 years, never need fluid checked, discharge less than 1%/month if vehicle goes unused, can freeze solid without any damage, many other benefits. No more lead acid for me. (oh....Crappy Tire sucks...expensive)


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## GreatLaker

RFD has a huge FAQ on car batteries.

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/car-batteries-faq-general-information-tips-tricks-2161758


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## ian

I bought a used car with a Canadian Tire battery in it. Two years old and it was toast. Took the battery into a CT store and had it tested. They wanted to sell me a new one. No thanks CT.

Replaced it with a Costco battery. It was either that or Wal Mart battery based on what I had read. I also asked around to some car friendly friends. They all said Costco because of performance and because of the warranty.

Costco also have some high end batteries on their web site.


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## off.by.10

james4beach said:


> Does anyone have experience with MagnaPower batteries? I picked up one with 640 CCA, 95 RC, 3 year warranty for $141 which seems competitive with the similarly rated Canadian Tire one. This seems like a stronger rating than the Toyota original battery which had a 540 CCA rating.


Don't put too much value on CCA ratings. There's only so much you can do with a given chemistry within a fixed volume so it's all about compromises. Higher CCA does not automatically mean a better battery. Just like more HP does not mean a better engine. More powerful when new? Sure. Will it last as long? Nothing certain. It can very well be the opposite depending on how that high CCA rating was achieved.


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## Userkare

If I were buying a battery in Winnipeg, I would be looking at an AGM battery. I've replaced the OEM battery in two cars so far with AGM batteries, and I notice the cold starting is very good. Mind you, Ottawa is nothing like Winnipeg when it comes to cold!

https://www.intercel.eu/questions-and-answers/advantages-agm-batteries/


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## gardner

Hardly anyone actually makes batteries. They are all contract manufactured by a few giants. 4 or so years ago the Crappy Tire ones were all made by Exide https://www.exide.com/. These days they are made by East Penn http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/applications/automotive/ In my fairly limited experience, the switch resulted in higher quality batteries.

I would definitely second Userkare's suggestion to go to an AGM type battery in Winterpeg. They deliver more current for their size and can deliver much more current on a cold morning than a similar sized flooded battery. They also will tolerate being frozen quite a bit better than a flooded one. One overnight at -35C with the parking lights left on will completely destroy a brand new flooded battery, but an AGM would likely still take a charge and give service for another few years after such treatment -- not that it's good for it or anything.


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## m3s

gardner said:


> I would definitely second Userkare's suggestion to go to an AGM type battery in Winterpeg. They deliver more current for their size and can deliver much more current on a cold morning than a similar sized flooded battery. They also will tolerate being frozen quite a bit better than a flooded one. One overnight at -35C with the parking lights left on will completely destroy a brand new flooded battery, but an AGM would likely still take a charge and give service for another few years after such treatment -- not that it's good for it or anything.


Do winterpeggers use battery pad warmers? Never needed them in canada myself but now nw of canada battery warmers are common. They're like $30. I know everyone plugs in block heaters in winterpeg and I always used block heater out east


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## Bobcajun

I looked up AGM batteries on Battery University and they said that you have to be careful not to overcharge them and that many cars are set to charge in a different way than required with these batteries. Don't know much about batteries but thought i would add this to the mix
bob


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## james4beach

Userkare said:


> If I were buying a battery in Winnipeg, I would be looking at an AGM battery. I've replaced the OEM battery in two cars so far with AGM batteries, and I notice the cold starting is very good. Mind you, Ottawa is nothing like Winnipeg when it comes to cold!
> 
> https://www.intercel.eu/questions-and-answers/advantages-agm-batteries/


Thanks for all these suggestions. Now I'm curious what the factory original Toyota battery might have been on a 2006 Corolla. Would it have been an AGM? It was a surprisingly strong battery.

I'm not feeling great about this car situation because I worry it's more than the battery, perhaps alternator, or an electrical problem that might drain any battery. Hope it's just the battery.


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## AltaRed

Have them stop worrying and have a charging circuit test done in the order of $20-30. That will turn up any ground or alternator problems. For a 5 year old car (I assume?), that should not remotely be the issue. They should go trouble free at least 10 years in a Japanese brand. Most shops will do a battery test for free.


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## gardner

james4beach said:


> I worry it's more than the battery, perhaps alternator, or an electrical problem that might drain any battery.


That is definitely something to consider. But if it's a 12-year old original equipment battery, there would be no surprise at all that it is simply kaput.

Confirming that the alternator is delivering the charge voltage only needs a voltmeter. Looking for something that is draining the battery is a tougher job.


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## Rusty O'Toole

Most batteries are made by a few companies but there are many ways to cheapen them, if the buyer wants a cheap battery. And a cheap battery may be all you need. But if you want to keep the car a long time and have a battery that is reliable and long lived it is wise to pay a little more. In my experience working in garages and testing old batteries Delco and Interstate are the ones to beat.


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## Userkare

m3s said:


> I know everyone plugs in block heaters in winterpeg and I always used block heater out east


That was something I noticed on my first visit to Winnipeg in Jan 91. Cars had block heater extension cords wrapped around the mirrors; some outdoor parking spots had electrical outlets. They didn't salt the roads, just put sand at intersections. The tires made a squealing sound on the fresh snow.

I was working at CFANS on the CF Base at the airport at the time. The wind across the open airfield was merciless. The servicemen had a technique to light their cigarettes outdoors while wearing mittens; quite the trick! Since this was the beginning of Gulf War #1, there was a lot of military aircraft activity. When a jet got close to the fence, the smokers would rush over to get warm in the exhaust.

I though "what a bunch of hardy souls that live here". After that experience, I never complained about winter back home.


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## OhGreatGuru

m3s said:


> Do winterpeggers use battery pad warmers? Never needed them in canada myself but now nw of canada battery warmers are common. They're like $30. I know everyone plugs in block heaters in winterpeg and I always used block heater out east


I would say battery warmer may be more important than a block heater nowadays. With the right grade of oil for your climate, and nearly all cars being fuel injected now, cars start a lot better than they used to. But if the battery can't provide enough juice you're dead meat.


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## KevinWaterloo

Eder said:


> I replaced the 6 batteries in my motor home with AGM batteries ordered from Costco online. AGM will normally last up to 10 years, never need fluid checked, discharge less than 1%/month if vehicle goes unused, can freeze solid without any damage, many other benefits. No more lead acid for me. (oh....Crappy Tire sucks...expensive)


Just to clarify, AGM batteries are still lead acid. The difference is that AGM batteries have internal wicks that keep the electrolyte close to the battery plates. 

FWIW I use Everstart batteries from Walmart in both my BMW and Porsche. Great value. Non-AGM but they have both been fine going on more than 5 years.


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## james4beach

Sounds like the next battery I buy will be form Walmart!

Where can I get this charging circuit test done for $30? There's only so much I can do with my multimeter on my own.


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## AltaRed

It is about 20 minute test with instrumentation at a place like Fountain Tire, Kal Tire, etc. It may be the $20-30 I remember from some years back is now a bit more depending on shop rates, etc. Just call up a few and ask.


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## scorpion_ca

Eder said:


> I replaced the 6 batteries in my motor home with AGM batterys ordered from Costco online. AGM will normally last up to 10 years, never need fluid checked, discharge less than 1%/month if vehicle goes unused, can freeze solid without any damage, many other benefits. No more lead acid for me. (oh....Crappy Tire sucks...expensive)


I learned a lesson in the beginning of this year. I used the battery of my car around nine years but it damaged the alternator. I had to change that one too. CT tested that battery several times in the last couple of years and every time they informed me that it was good battery.

Replace the battery every five years even it's good unless you want to damage the alternator.


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## james4beach

AltaRed said:


> It is about 20 minute test with instrumentation at a place like Fountain Tire, Kal Tire, etc. It may be the $20-30 I remember from some years back is now a bit more depending on shop rates, etc. Just call up a few and ask.


Thanks. I looked into it and Fountain Tire does this for "a little under $50"



scorpion_ca said:


> Replace the battery every five years even it's good unless you want to damage the alternator.


Wow, I didn't know that an ageing battery could be harmful for the alternator. Good tip, thanks.


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## AltaRed

That is discussed on many a car forum. The alternator uses the reference voltage from the battery to deliver a charge, and a dead or a shorted cell will overwork the alternator causing premature wear/failure. Replacing alternators can be a costly exercise...way more than more early replacement of batteries. Get a free battery test every year once the battery is 3 years old or so and replace the battery at the first signs of weakness.


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## scorpion_ca

If the CCA specs of a battery is 650 and it shows less than that on the test, change the battery before winter even the test result shows the battery is good.


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## scorpion_ca

james4beach said:


> Thanks. I looked into it and Fountain Tire does this for "a little under $50"


I wouldn't waste $50 for that test since the battery is 5 years old. Just replace the battery. 

My car battery (9 years old) died in the last boxing day when the temperature was -35c to -40c. I had to wait more than an hour for a tow truck. I am glad that it died in the parking lot of a Walmart. I think I wouldn't survive with that temperature if it happened somewhere else.


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## lonewolf :)

I replace my battery every 6 -7 years even though it seams to be good. My car is parked in a garage so not exposed to hot or cold as often


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## lonewolf :)

james4beach said:


> Wow, I didn't know that an ageing battery could be harmful for the alternator. Good tip, thanks.


 Also want gas in gas tank to never get below a quarter the gas in the tank keeps the fuel pump cool


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## james4beach

Thanks everyone. I bought and installed a new battery from Partsource. After I removed the old one, the guy at Partsource took a look at it and said "that battery is toast... it's been frozen". He spotted a bulge in the case, permanent damage.

That makes sense. This car was parked in a place that normally has some heating, but I think the winter when it died, the heating had stopped for a period. Very possible that the battery froze and was permanently damaged that winter.


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## AltaRed

A major case of neglect since a battery only freezes if it is discharged. And this family member has been trying to function with this battery since the depths of last winter?


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## nobleea

lonewolf :) said:


> Also want gas in gas tank to never get below a quarter the gas in the tank keeps the fuel pump cool


Urban myth.

I can understand keeping the tank above half full in the winter, particularly if you park in a heated garage, as this will limit the amount of condensation that occurs.
But your fuel pump will not be damaged if you run with less than a quarter tank. Even if you run out of gas. Unless you do it on a regular basis.


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## james4beach

AltaRed said:


> A major case of neglect since a battery only freezes if it is discharged. And this family member has been trying to function with this battery since the depths of last winter?


After it first died in the winter, I jump started the car and drove it around a long time that winter... at least an hour... and it had been trouble free in the following months they used it. I thought it was OK at the time. I only realized there was a big problem when the family told me the car died a _second_ time a few months later.


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## m3s

scorpion_ca said:


> My car battery (9 years old) died in the last boxing day when the temperature was -35c to -40c. I had to wait more than an hour for a tow truck. I am glad that it died in the parking lot of a Walmart. I think I wouldn't survive with that temperature if it happened somewhere else.


Pack a small tool kit and jumper cables. I just changed someones battery in 5 mins with a small multitool that I carry around. That battery was only a few years old and the car wouldn't even crank with my jumpstarter. New cars have so many electronics they seem much less tolerant to dying batteries as the parasitic draws increase. His keyless start meant the electronics were drawing charge to light gauges etc even before trying to crank the engine


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## ian

...and if you are packing jumper cables don't bother buying the short, inexpensive 8 foot ones. Buy 15 feet (or longer), and a reasonable gauge. Learn how to use them properly, then put them in your trunk and hope that you never have to use them to boost your vehicle.


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## james4beach

Great idea packing jumper cables. Also remember to keep an emergency kit ... blanket, gloves, balaclava, candles, lighter, flashlight.


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## AltaRed

Always have jumper cables in the vehicle when we leave the BC interior in the wintertime going over the mountains, and especially into the prairies in mid-winter.


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## nobleea

I've been shocked (no pun intended) at how effective those little digital battery boosters are. Easily able to boost a completely dead battery from something the size of smart phone. Easier and safer to connect as well.

In my experience almost no one knows how to boost a battery properly. You're supposed to connect to the frame or block on the dead car, but everyone connects to the ground on the dead battery.


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## m3s

nobleea said:


> I've been shocked (no pun intended) at how effective those little digital battery boosters are. Easily able to boost a completely dead battery from something the size of smart phone. Easier and safer to connect as well.


Yea I've been meaning to get one of those. The benefit of cables I suppose is you can just leave them in the trunk for years without having to recharge them, but they do require another vehicle



nobleea said:


> In my experience almost no one knows how to boost a battery properly. You're supposed to connect to the frame or block on the dead car, but everyone connects to the ground on the dead battery.


You're supposed to connect to the frame of the dead car last just to avoid the chance of sparks. It does the same thing as connecting to ground terminal on battery as it's grounded to the frame


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## james4beach

nobleea said:


> I've been shocked (no pun intended) at how effective those little digital battery boosters are. Easily able to boost a completely dead battery from something the size of smart phone. Easier and safer to connect as well.


Interesting. Could you give a product name, or link to an example product so I can see what you mean?


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## KevinWaterloo

james4beach said:


> Interesting. Could you give a product name, or link to an example product so I can see what you mean?


This article describes the products and their top picks
https://drivinglife.net/best-lithium-ion-jump-starter/

I have one of the original ones from PowerAll (which might be the company that came up with the idea). I have used it to start my outboard boat motor and 1 small car and it worked well.
https://www.thepowerall.com/product-page/supreme

Kevin


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## Koogie

..


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## agent99

james4beach said:


> After it first died in the winter, I jump started the car and drove it around a long time that winter... at least an hour... and it had been trouble free in the following months they used it. I thought it was OK at the time. I only realized there was a big problem when the family told me the car died a _second_ time a few months later.


Driving a car for one hour won't come anywhere near to recharging a dead battery. Jumping will get car started and the car runs initially on the alternator output while battery gradually receives a charge. It might restart after an hour of driving if it wasn't completely dead. But it won't be anywhere near fully charged. 

Besides buying a new battery, the belts should be checked. Slipping belts will reduce alternator output. 

Driving habits also cause batteries to run down. My daily driver doesn't get driven very far each day. Over the summer, the battery gradually loses charge because of multiple starts. When cooler weather comes, I notice engine (diesel) doesn't turn over that well when starting. This just happened. Last night I put battery on charge. It started off at about 3 Amps and was almost fully charged about an hour ago. About 18 hours at average of about 2A? 36 amp-hours. Battery was probably down to about 60% of full charge. Just enough to start car at 8C yesterday.

By the way, Partsource and Canadian Tire are same company. I almost always buy batteries from CT. I buy their best battery with longest 100% replacement warranty. I have had them replace lawn tractor batteries, but if they pro-rate warranty, by time you need it, it doesn't save much. Read the warranty fine print!


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## agent99

KevinWaterloo said:


> This article describes the products and their top picks
> https://drivinglife.net/best-lithium-ion-jump-starter/
> 
> I have one of the original ones from PowerAll (which might be the company that came up with the idea). I have used it to start my outboard boat motor and 1 small car and it worked well.
> https://www.thepowerall.com/product-page/supreme
> 
> Kevin


Those seem to be US links. 

I have seen the NOCO boosters at Canadian Tire. http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/autom...chargers-accessories/booster-power-packs.html. 
And on Amazon.ca some name brands and some cheap other types https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_n...rch-alias=aps&field-keywords=battery+boosters

I have been think about buying one of these. I would probably go for 1000A unit like NOCO. This is a good article on how to choose: http://jumpstarterexpert.com/how-to-choose-a-portable-jump-starter/


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## james4beach

agent99 said:


> I have seen the NOCO boosters at Canadian Tire. http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/autom...chargers-accessories/booster-power-packs.html.
> And on Amazon.ca some name brands and some cheap other types https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_n...rch-alias=aps&field-keywords=battery+boosters
> 
> I have been think about buying one of these. I would probably go for 1000A unit like NOCO. This is a good article on how to choose: http://jumpstarterexpert.com/how-to-choose-a-portable-jump-starter/


This thing looks amazing and the price isn't bad. $160 for a portable charger that can save me from getting stranded with a dead battery out at -30 ?


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## m3s

james4beach said:


> This thing looks amazing and the price isn't bad. $160 for a portable charger that can save me from getting stranded with a dead battery out at -30 ?


Same one goes for $60 on amazon.com I've pretty much stopped using Can Tire unless it's an emergency that can't wait 2-3 days shipping


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## agent99

Just bought one!

No-name but reviews are good. 1200A !

https://www.amazon.ca/Starter-Super...37907067&sr=1-9&keywords=jump+starter+lithium

$99.99 reduced to $89.99. Then if you click on coupon, they give you another $10 off. Free shipping if you so choose (I did). Then, for some reason, they did not charge HST?? I expected to pay that. Maybe that will show on CC?


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## agent99

m3s said:


> Same one goes for $60 on amazon.com I've pretty much stopped using Can Tire unless it's an emergency that can't wait 2-3 days shipping


Are you sure? For GB-40 that CT has for sale? When I looked on Amazon.com, I saw much higher prices and they are presumably in US$ with no free shipping to Canada.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B015TKUPIC/ref=olp_page_1?ie=UTF8&f_all=true


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## james4beach

m3s said:


> Same one goes for $60 on amazon.com I've pretty much stopped using Can Tire unless it's an emergency that can't wait 2-3 days shipping


Do you guys think I can buy one of these in the US and bring it (in carry on luggage) onto planes and across the border? Or is it not allowed due to the massive lithium ion battery in this thing?

Or, if I buy it on Amazon.com (with USD pricing) does it work to give it a Canadian shipping address? I've never tried this but in the old days, equipment going across the border could get held up for a long time, and sometimes incur surprise additional charges.


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## m3s

james4beach said:


> Do you guys think I can buy one of these in the US and bring it (in carry on luggage) onto planes and across the border? Or is it not allowed due to the massive lithium ion battery in this thing?
> 
> Or, if I buy it on Amazon.com (with USD pricing) does it work to give it a Canadian shipping address? I've never tried this but in the old days, equipment going across the border could get held up for a long time, and sometimes incur surprise additional charges.


Lithium batteries can't be in checked luggage because they are dangerous goods. This includes laptops with batteries and powerbanks. They can be carry-on yes

I think amazon.com usually requires US address especially for dangerous goods. Some other items won't even ship to me in US, depends on the seller etc



agent99 said:


> Are you sure? For GB-40 that CT has for sale? When I looked on Amazon.com, I saw much higher prices and they are presumably in US$ with no free shipping to Canada.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B015TKUPIC/ref=olp_page_1?ie=UTF8&f_all=true


I have an add-on called keepa that shows me the historical prices. $60-70 is a recurring warehouse sale several times a month and that's tax free. amazon.ca still sucks unfortunately


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## agent99

james4beach said:


> Do you guys think I can buy one of these in the US and bring it (in carry on luggage) onto planes and across the border? Or is it not allowed due to the massive lithium ion battery in this thing?
> 
> Or, if I buy it on Amazon.com (with USD pricing) does it work to give it a Canadian shipping address? I've never tried this but in the old days, equipment going across the border could get held up for a long time, and sometimes incur surprise additional charges.


Shipping to Canada will kill you, and the amazon.com price is actually more like US$99.50 (C$132). m3s says he quoted historical sale prices. The 1200A (overkill) unit I bought was only C$79.99 with free shipping. Not same make, but good reviews.


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## m3s

Historical as in 3 times in the last week, amazon.com has a lot more sales. amazon.ca should be improving now that we get amazon's 2nd hq


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## WGZ

I've been going to & recommending a car battery recycling place. Not sure if there's similar around the country, but one I go to is Battery Doctor.

You can bring your old in-tact battery to them and receive $30 off a $60 refurbished battery (your standard 600-700cca for small passenger cars) and comes with a 3 month warranty. Works great for me and everyone I know who runs cheap beater vehicles. These refurb'd batteries last around 5 years.

Also once bought a new OEM Honda battery from a Honda dealership, and it was only $130 which was the most I've paid for a battery - just surprised that was a dealership pricing being on par with Crappy Tire house brand pricing. That was in 2011, probably 150ish now.


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## lonewolf :)

Can refurbish most batteries

mix 10 oz of baking soda with one gallon of hot distilled water.
Charge old battery as much as possible 
pour out acid 
pour in baking soda & hot water mixture into battery leave battery covers off shake battery , let sit until bubbles stop
pour out solution & repeat
rinse battery with water
mix 12 oz of epson salt with 1 gallon of distilled water ( could use battery acid though do not need it as the epson salt mixture will turn into battery acid)
pour mixture into battery
charge battery on low charge for 24 to 48 hrs
place load on battery to partially drain 
recharge battery. Might want to do several cycles

Battery is good to go


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## agent99

I have never tried it, but it does seem that an old battery can be given a news lease of life using Epsom salts. But it does seem like quite a bit of work, expecially if multiple cycles are needed. An even then, how long will it be before battery needs another refurb or dies completely. And, many batteries these days are sealed and have no way of emptying/adding water or acid.

This site describes process in detail: http://www.batteryreconditioninglab.com/

If this was a panacea, why don't we have lead-sulphate batteries instead of lead-acid? 

I do have a couple of old lawn tractor batteries. Might try this on them! For cars, a new battery every 5 or 6 years is no big deal. Some last much longer.


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## ian

We have the original battery in our 06 Accord. No issues yet. Our 97 Camry was 10 plus years on the original battery. This spring I bought a new battery from Costco for the Solara. They took back the old CT battery (pure junk) and gave me $20 0r $30 (cannot remember) back. I take it out of the car in the winter months since it is a summer only car.


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## scorpion_ca

ian said:


> We have the original battery in our 06 Accord. No issues yet. Our 97 Camry was 10 plus years on the original battery. This spring I bought a new battery from Costco for the Solara. They took back the old CT battery (pure junk) and gave me $20 0r $30 (cannot remember) back. I take it out of the car in the winter months since it is a summer only car.


If you use very old battery on your car, you may destroy the alternator. This is happened to me last year. My Honda Civic car battery was around 9 years old and it died when the temperature was -37 outside. I had to change the alternator too. 

What is the Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) of the battery compare to the specs of the car?


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## ian

don't know but I will have it checked when I take it in for the oil change next week.


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## agent99

ian said:


> I take it out of the car in the winter months since it is a summer only car.


It doesn't do any harm to take battery out, but it is not really necessary. 

If you charge the battery fully and disconnect the ground terminal, it will weather the winter fine. I do that with two old cars. Another that is a pain to reset the radio on, I have a Ctek type smart trickle charger. On my boat (now sold), stored outdoors, I had multiple battery banks. Heavy work to remove! Just left them in disconnected. Never a problem. 10-15 years.


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## lonewolf :)

scorpion_ca said:


> If you use very old battery on your car, you may destroy the alternator. This is happened to me last year. My Honda Civic car battery was around 9 years old and it died when the temperature was -37 outside. I had to change the alternator too.
> 
> What is the Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) of the battery compare to the specs of the car?


 The more electrical gadgets you have on your car the faster your alternator wears out. Power seats, heated seats, power windows etc put more strain on an alternator. A plain Jane car the alternator will last longer. Temp above 80 F puts more strain on the alternator


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## agent99

lonewolf :) said:


> The more electrical gadgets you have on your car the faster your alternator wears out. Power seats, heated seats, power windows etc put more strain on an alternator. A plain Jane car the alternator will last longer. Temp above 80 F puts more strain on the alternator


I am just in the process of installing a new alternator in my 85 diesel. It was still working fine, but a mounting bolt came out, belt came off and the alternator casing was damaged. But otherwise still working fine after 33 years & 450k km. 
On another 46 yr & 260k km car , original alternator still good. 
Other 20 yr 260k km car both alt & starter still good and it has all kind of electrical stuff. Battery does need to be up to snuff and has been changed more often than on the older simpler cars. 

Own and have owned a LOT of cars! I have found that starter motors need replacing or rebuilding twice as often as alternators. There is just not that much to go wrong on alternators. But no doubt quality of some may not be that good. Sometimes the problem is just the voltage regulator.


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## ian

I do not really know anything about cars. The one thing that I did learn early on was to avoid Canadian Tire service centers at all costs. Two visits in 45 plus years of motoring. The first was an oil change. They forgot to replace the oil. Fortunately it is my habit to check the dipstick after an oil change. The second was a headlight replacement. It did not work but they did tell me that I needed a brake job. Notwithstanding that my regular mechanic had done one six months earlier and it was just fine thanks very much. I feel the same way about the quick lube joints who goal is to sell me things that I do not really need.

Other than checking the oil, following the maintenance schedule, and knowing what kind of gas to use and where it goes that is about the extent my knowledge. Plus, I can change a tire.


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## AltaRed

ian said:


> The one thing that I did learn early on was to avoid Canadian Tire service centers at all costs.


This is kind of changing the subject of the thread, but I will also vouch for that given some unpleasant experiences in the '70s and '80s. I was a slow learner. They make used car salesmen look like saints in comparison.


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## twa2w

For those looking for a small booster pack for boosting cars, Costco in Calgary had them for 59.00 last time I was in. I didn't pay attn to model but generally Costco carries decent stuff. If offered through the store it is often cheaper than on line. Looked to be not much bigger than a large cell phone.


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## scorpion_ca

twa2w said:


> For those looking for a small booster pack for boosting cars, Costco in Calgary had them for 59.00 last time I was in. I didn't pay attn to model but generally Costco carries decent stuff. If offered through the store it is often cheaper than on line. Looked to be not much bigger than a large cell phone.


It's cheaper at store but the reviews are not good.
https://www.costco.ca/Winplus-Lithium-Jump-Starter-and-Portable-Power-Bank.product.100459787.html


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## ian

I just got rid of our 97 Toyota file. Had the car for 18 years 425K. Two batteries. One original, one replacement from Toyota. Never did replace the alternator. My son had another two years service from the car and to my knowledge he did not replace either. I have no idea whether this is good, bad, or average service life. Much of the car life was in Alberta but we had a garage so it did not sit out in the bitter cold. When it did though, it always started like a charm. Best car we ever had.


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## Prairie Guy

Also, for those unaware, you can buy a battery tender...it's a small trickle charger that will keep the battery charged. Most have smart technology that prevent overcharging. I bought one for my parents last year because they take lots of short trips and like to keep both heated seats on. The battery would gradually weaken until they'd be stranded somewhere needing a boost. 

I also bought one for my car...the remote start automatically turns on the heated seat, heated steering wheel, and heated windshield, plus my girlfriend likes to leave the heated seat on all the time. Rather than worry about draining the battery I just plug in the battery tender once or twice a week to keep the battery fully charged.

This is the one I have, available at Crappy Tire, Ebay, Amazon, etc.:

http://products.batterytender.com/Chargers/Battery-Tender-Junior-12V-0-75A.html


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## 319905

^ And ... if you have one of those stop/start systems that shuts the engine off at e.g. traffic lights ... which I do but can and do disable via a button on the dash ... in winter all that stuff, lights, fans, and on and on all run on the battery while the engine's off while you're waiting for that e.g. traffic light to change. A potential low battery problem for someone taking short trips I'd think.


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## AltaRed

A family member has one of those engine stop/start vehicles. I can't imagine having the engine shut off at traffic lights and would permanently disable that f'ing system. Enough already, if nothing else, due to safety reasons, e.g. a sudden need to react to a situation.


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## m3s

Had a BMW start/stop rental in Europe eons ago that worked great. If you drive a standard it does not slow you down at all as the engine starts before you get the clutch to the floor. I believe start/stop vehicles have batteries designed for the extra demand and the system detects a low battery and disables itself. If you drive an auto this is probably too complicated for you


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## OhGreatGuru

AltaRed said:


> A family member has one of those engine stop/start vehicles. I can't imagine having the engine shut off at traffic lights and would permanently disable that f'ing system. Enough already, if nothing else, due to safety reasons, e.g. a sudden need to react to a situation.


They've been common in Europe for a long time, to reduce smog from idling in urban traffic. But they are generally dealing with smaller engines and milder weather. I always wondered about the wear & tear on starting systems. I agree in our climate they could be hard on starting systems and batteries.


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## james4beach

AltaRed said:


> A family member has one of those engine stop/start vehicles. I can't imagine having the engine shut off at traffic lights and would permanently disable that f'ing system. Enough already, if nothing else, due to safety reasons, e.g. a sudden need to react to a situation.


I've had a couple rental cars with these. It's terrible. Sometimes I come to a stop at a stop sign and the engine shuts off. Inevitably, restarts 0.5 seconds later... stupidest thing I've ever seen.

By the way, the MagnaPower I got from Partsource has been working OK. The car has made it through -25 C temperatures here on the prairies and I even left it parked outside at -30 for a couple hours. Such a big relief not having to boost it this winter (so far). Not sure how long the battery will last, though.


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## agent99

We have a new Subaru Outback. Can't believe the tiny battery that is installed. The car has all kinds of electronics. And other "features" that draw power. I parked car in garage on Dec 23rd. On Jan3rd, started it and parked it closer to house so I could pack for trip South. Had the doors and tailgate open and closed several times while loading. When I went to move car, it would not start. Left on change all night. At times charge rate was 9 amps indicating how low battery was. The battery is too small - apparently part of weight reduction to improve mileage!


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## m3s

It's hard on the battery if you start it and just move it closer to the house as you didn't let the alt recharge the battery.

That said my colleagues Legacy battery died (very similar to Outback) I said no problem I'll give you a boost. No luck. I was also surprised how many electronics are on that car compared to my 2012 Impreza. The electronic dash and keyless entry etc etc try to draw power automatically before you can even push the ignition button which seemed to defeat the boost. He also has the EyeSight I'm not sure if that draws power before you start as well (the EyeSight seems to never work in winter either)

Subaru stock batteries are junk (as are most stock parts on most cars) Get a Costco battery or other good aftermarket brand


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## james4beach

One misconception I had about alternators & batteries is, I thought just running the car and idling it was enough to recharge a low battery. This is not the case. You'll need at least 2000 to 2500 RPM (assuming standard passenger car) and it needs quite a bit of time to restore low battery levels. It's probably best to drive it around a bit.

When I've been worried about battery levels, I also shift to neutral and press the gas pedal while at red lights, stopped for trains, etc to get the alternator feeding the battery.

If you suspect the battery is not fully charged, starting it up and letting it idle for a bit doesn't do any good. You're causing a big drain just to start the vehicle up, and those low RPMs at idling probably don't recharge anything.


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## Prairie Guy

My car has the auto shut off...thankfully it can be disabled but that must be done every time you start the car. The manual states that it only works when the engine has warmed up and the battery has a strong charge. Even so, I automatically disable it every time I get in the car.


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## gardner

Prairie Guy said:


> it can be disabled but that must be done every time you start the car


Dunno, what car you have, but on most VWs, it can be permanently disabled in the cars' configuration (read about ODBeleven). I recommend googling around for your car make&model. IMO auto shut off is a stupid feature that should default to "off".


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## Prairie Guy

It defaults to "on" in my car (Acura) but can be disabled. It's set up that way for the EPA mileage rating.


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## agent99

m3s said:


> It's hard on the battery if you start it and just move it closer to the house as you didn't let the alt recharge the battery.


So how long do you think it would take for the alternator to charge the battery? A very very long drive at least. As it is, it took all night with smart charger. No way a car should need to be recharged after one start and a few open doors. Battery must have drained while sitting in garage for 12 days. Researched why:

As mentioned, it seems that Subaru put in a "light" battery. It is rated at 355CCA and 48Ah. The parasitic drain rate with everything off is theoretically 70mA. My meter said closer to 100mA. That would be 16.8Ah/week - lets say 12Ah/week. When down to 1/2 capacity, unlikely computer would allow battery to even try and start the engine. So 2 weeks standby time. Not very good if you parked car at airport while on vacation!

We are in USA and using car every day. Will see how it goes. If OK, I will leave car on trickle charger whenever it is parked for a length of time.

By the way, most starting batteries provide a rating in CCA. But that has nothing to do with their Reserve Capacity or Amp-hour rating. And those numbers are sometimes hard to find. Car has only done 2000km, but I am already looking for the ideal replacement battery  Meanwhile I do carry my Lithium Jump Starter.


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## Eclectic12

james4beach said:


> I've had a couple rental cars with these. It's terrible. Sometimes I come to a stop at a stop sign and the engine shuts off. Inevitably, restarts 0.5 seconds later... stupidest thing I've ever seen ...


Interesting ... the rentals I have had with this feature were restarting when I pressed the gas pedal. I was expecting a long delay before moving forward but did not find it bad at all. They seemed to have a cycle where for five stops, the engine would stay off (i.e. a lot longer than 0.5 seconds). The six stop it would restart after about two seconds or so.

They were rentals in summer so there's no indication of how the batter life may or may not do.


Cheers


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## m3s

It would be annoying if they shut off at stop signs but that wouldn't happen with a standard so long as you stay in gear. Europe uses roundabouts and yield signs that are far more efficient for both traffic flow and fuel economy

You'd think a simple short delay on the shut off would prevent stop and go cut off issue even with an auto. I imagine it depends on the manufacturer


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## Dilbert

I too have a 2016 fully loaded Outback that has refused to turn over twice now, necessitating a boost. My dealer’s Service Manager finally has agreed to replace the battery with a larger CCA rating and he commented it is a little undersized given that all the technology drains a substantial amount of current even when the car is turned off.


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## agent99

Dilbert said:


> I too have a 2016 fully loaded Outback that has refused to turn over twice now, necessitating a boost. My dealer’s Service Manager finally has agreed to replace the battery with a larger CCA rating and he commented it is a little undersized given that all the technology drains a substantial amount of current even when the car is turned off.


Dilbert,
One thing to note, is that the CCA rating is only a measure of the very short term amperage required to turn the engine over in cold weather. The Outback 2.5 engine is quite small and low compression so does not require high CCA. I have an old diesel (high compression), and it needs an 800CCA battery to start. Outback has less than 1/2 of that with about same size gas engine.

The real problem with the Outback and some other newer cars with all the bells and whistles, is the lack of battery reserve capacity (as outlined earlier). Higher CCA batteries may also have higher Amphour or reserve capacity, but that is not a given. It is sometimes hard to find those specifications. From what I have read, the Outback uses a very small Group 25 battery. Apparently a group 24 or group 34 battery will fit in same place. I haven't research types yet, but will look for something with ~70Ah or 120min reserve capacity. CCA for these will likely also be higher - maybe 600.

If Subaru will replace under warranty, I guess you take whatever they can offer. Apparently the battery for the 3.6 engine will fit. 

One other thing - The car's computer (ECU) can sense the key fob within a certain distance. In my case, I had car parked near house and FOB was on my desk, not that far from car. When the ECU senses FOB, current draw goes up and of course battery drains more quickly making a poor situation worse.

Good luck with the Outback!


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## Pluto

Sounds like a real dinky little battery in the new Subaru's. 

I got stranded on a remote highway due to battery failure. It and the car was only 5 years old with low mileage. the battery shorted out internally and the car stopped dead in its tracks. Cost me towing, hotel bill over the weekend as all repair shops were closed, and the usual high fee for diagnositics. Since then I buy batteries with much higher capacity than the manual would indicate, and fiberglass mat reinforced lead plates. Apparently the lead plates can bend due to gravity and bumpy roads and eventually short out so the reinforcing adds to longevity.


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## Prairie Guy

^^

It's smart to buy the highest capacity battery that will fit your car. You got 5 years out of the original battery...from what I understand, that's about normal.


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## ian

We have a Toyota Solara (Camry) convertable. Summer car only. Battery that came with the car was dead last spring when I tried to strart the car. Boosted the battery. Two days later dead again. CT battery. Had it tested, they said to punt it. 

Installed a Costco battery and off we went. Took it off the road in October. Cancelled the insurance. Pulled the battery and put it in the basement until next April.
Hope it turns over when I re-install it!


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## agent99

ian said:


> Installed a Costco battery and off we went. Took it off the road in October. Cancelled the insurance. Pulled the battery and put it in the basement until next April.
> Hope it turns over when I re-install it!


It should. When car is stored, all you need to do is first charge battery fully, then disconnect the negative cable. No need to remove. I have two cars sitting like that at present and one other that I leave on a smart Ctek type trickle charger. Do this so as to avoid losing radio and other car settings.


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## Dilbert

Agent99, yes - I am aware that CCA only tells part of the story and I was quoting what the Service Manager said. Since it’s free, I will wait and see exactly what he supplies WRT improvement of the overall spec.

Mine is the six cylinder 3.6R and frankly, the OEM battery looks puny for any size of motor. In fact, the battery tray surface area is larger than the supplied unit, which I find quite odd.

In order to never be stranded again, I did buy a Lithium booster when Canadian Tire had a sale. It’s always connected to one of my USB ports and ready to go. Probably good insurance for anyone in a cold climate, anyway.


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## agent99

Dilbert said:


> In order to never be stranded again, I did buy a Lithium booster when Canadian Tire has a sale. It’s always connected to one of my USB ports and ready to go. Probably good insurance for anyone in a cold climate, anyway.


It will be interesting to hear what type of battery they install. The 3.6 apparently has a better battery than the 2.5. I read that trays may be the same.

I have a Lithium booster. Never have used it, even when battery died because I was at home and could recharge overnight. I know my booster can output usb, but not sure if it will charge through that port. Something I should check. They say charge lasts for a long time - maybe a year.


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## Aktsop

Eder said:


> I replaced the 6 batteries in my motor home with AGM batterys ordered from Costco online. AGM will normally last up to 10 years, never need fluid checked, discharge less than 1%/month if vehicle goes unused, can freeze solid without any damage, many other benefits. No more lead acid for me. (oh....Crappy Tire sucks...expensive)


AGM are still lead-acid batteries. They just have fiberglass between the cells to absorb the electrolyte/liquid.


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## james4beach

My dad has an old car that sat unused for 10 months. It seems that the battery died, but to the point that you don't even see dashboard lights as you turn the key.

To me that sounds like the battery has totally drained. That battery is only 2 years old and (when I saw it a year ago) was in good shape, but I'd presume the charge has to be very low for it to not show any dashboard lights at all.

The car is in an awkward spot that makes it tough to bring another car nearby to boost it. Does anyone know if a portable jump starter like this one can work in this situation, enough to get the engine running?

NOCO Genius GB40 Boost+ Jump Starter and Power Bank, 1000 Amp

Is this the right kind of thing? We're talking about a small, old Toyota


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## cainvest

james4beach said:


> NOCO Genius GB40 Boost+ Jump Starter and Power Bank, 1000 Amp
> 
> Is this the right kind of thing? We're talking about a small, old Toyota


Those jump starters can work, some much better than others.

So he doesn't know anyone with a battery charger? 

Another option is to pull the battery from a working car, walk it over with booster cables and start it that way.


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## james4beach

cainvest said:


> So he doesn't know anyone with a battery charger?


I'm getting him to ask around. They live in a condo building and I'm kind of surprised the condo doesn't just keep a charger handy, given that this is a common problem in the garage.

Wish I was there to help out. I could solve all this in 15 mins. My dad is not good with cars, so he definitely can't walk his other car battery over. I think he's going to have to get help from someone.


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## Covariance

If you or your father are CAA they might be able to help. I had to have a car boosted in an underground parking garage with very low height and no way to bring a vehicle close. Called CAA and explained. They sent a tech who boosted it from portable unit he carried over to my car.


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## james4beach

Covariance said:


> If you or your father are CAA they might be able to help. I had to have a car boosted in an underground parking garage with very low height and no way to bring a vehicle close. Called CAA and explained. They sent a tech who boosted it from portable unit he carried over to my car.


Thanks, yeah I think he's calling CAA for help with this one because of the weird underground parking garage situation.


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## Money172375

Those little charges are very good and fit in your glove box.

I use A Battery Tender Jr for my motorcycle and boat batteries. It’s amazing. hreat For the snowbirds who leave the cars at home.


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## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Those little charges are very good and fit in your glove box.
> 
> I use A Battery Tender Jr for my motorcycle and boat batteries. It’s amazing. hreat For the snowbirds who leave the cars at home.


Interesting, I've never used one before. To see if I understand this correctly: you'd plug this into a standard wall socket, and it clips onto your (car) battery terminals, right? So this is a "trickle charger" which just keeps the battery fully charged, and it can be left connected for a long time on this charger?


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## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Interesting, I've never used one before. To see if I understand this correctly: you'd plug this into a standard wall socket, and it clips onto your (car) battery terminals, right? So this is a "trickle charger" which just keeps the battery fully charged, and it can be left connected for a long time on this charger?


Yes, it’s like a trickle charger but the technology doesn’t overcharge it. I’ve used multiple ones for 20 years. My 2001 bike is on its second battery.


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