# Art scams and the Government



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

> New insight into the origins of a set of sculptures once believed to have been crafted by Michelangelo has created a discrepancy over what the so-called Michelangelo's Models are worth — and has raised concerns about the millions of dollars in tax credits they cost the Canadian government.





> The pieces sat for years in a china cabinet in Paul Lebrooy's Montreal apartment until art historians had a look at them and determined that some of the models could possibly have been made by Michelangelo and one of his pupils as studies during the creative process.


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/michelangelo-models-cost-canada-millions-tax-credits-020725113.html

While these are not Chinese fakes, apparently Michangelo didn't make them.

Hmmm..maybe I should try getting one of my carvings valued at several million by signing Leonardo D.Vinci on the base.
I'm sure there are a few art collectors that would pay millions for my rare find. :biggrin:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Isn't there an "appraisal" process for artpieces to determine there value before purchase? This is a scam alright ... right under our government's nose.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Years ago I read that often art was bid up high to sell @ auction @ inflated prices.

The owners of the art would have more then one piece of art by the artist & would donate the art to charity & get a huge tax credit for charitable donations because of the art being bid up higher & bought by insiders that were part of the game made all art by that artist worth more. According to the artical which I think was American happens often & prices are purchased far beyond market value.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i don't think we need to worry. This story happened nearly 20 years ago.

the CRA wised up long ago. Art scams are a thing of the past. Also movie scams. No museum today will issue an inflated donation valuation.

can the tax authorities pursue the heirs to the brother's estate in this old, dormant story? probably not. The brothers got away with it, but in the end the caper was probably worth only a few million dollars at the most. It's not clear that the brothers ever had any other large income to which they could have applied the tax credits. It sounds more like they had an obsession.

carverman for muckraking you're better off w cruise ships ...


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> carverman for muckraking you're better off w cruise ships ...


Well, I try to come up with controversial subjects to stimulate conversation. There is enough muckraking on parliament hill...I'm sure that Senator Duffy
does that in his summer months vacationing around Cavendish beach..lots of "clams" there for him and his cronies, courtesy of the taxpayer.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

lonewolf said:


> Years ago I read that often art was bid up high to sell @ auction @ inflated prices.
> 
> The owners of the art would have more then one piece of art by the artist & *would donate the art to charity & get a huge tax credit for charitable donations because of the art being bid up higher & bought by insiders that were part of the game made all art by that artist worth more.* According to the article which I think was American happens often & prices are purchased far beyond market value.


This sounds about right. often times they have "plants" amongst the bidders to drive up prices. Recently, I heard that a famous Picasso nude sold for 106 million and he's been dead for quite a few years. 

http://www.ibtimes.com/picasso-painting-sells-over-106-million-highest-sold-art-auction-193524

Look people there's gold in dem objects d'art. I don't even like his nudes...too flat and cubic for me.:biggrin:
I prefer:biggrin: Renoir and the rather rubenisque nude paintings he used to do.

My prices are much cheaper. For a mere $100,000 or even a few bottles of cheap wine, I can paint you "nude" on some plywood
I have in my basement.
If the National Art Gallery spent 1.76 million on "Voice of Fire"..(3 coloured stripes on a canvas), you can commission me to
do a cost effective painting that you can auction off and get thousands of dollars in tax credits. It's art..how can anyone
set a price on art..it's all in the eye of the beholder they say.


> Although Voice of Fire hung peacefully on loan in the gallery for two years, it was the subject of public outcry when, in the spring of 1990, the gallery decided to purchase the painting for $1.76 million.


http://www.gallery.ca/en/see/collections/artwork.php?mkey=35828

I would like to do one for the National Art Gallery called: "Voice of Pis*ed off taxpayers"


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

carverman said:


> Well, I try to come up with controversial subjects to stimulate conversation


mille mercis


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> mille mercis


Your welcome.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

carverman said:


> Recently, I heard that a famous Picasso nude sold for 106 million and he's
> been dead for quite a few years. be


yes, that's how it works. Works by a recognized artist double & triple the moment he passes away. There are collectors who buy up ageing prominent artists in the hopes that they - the collectors - will manage to outlive the artists.

carve it must kill you to think that a beautiful, signed, hand-carved carverman guitar might be worth far more after you leave this world than ever before.

(signed)
no-justice-in-this-world-pie


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> yes, that's how it works. Works by a recognized artist double & triple the moment he passes away. There are collectors who buy up ageing prominent artists in the hopes that they - the collectors - will manage to outlive the artists.
> 
> carve it must kill you to think that a beautiful, signed, hand-carved carverman guitar might be worth far more after you leave this world than ever before.
> 
> ...


Thank you HP. My guitars too me are very special and there is lots of love, handcrafting and attention to detail...and they make beautiful music for me and any
of my grandchildren that will inherit them after me. Being one of kinds, they have no commercial value, so if I tried to sell one on Kijji, I wouldn't even get a
reasonable offer for the several hundred dollars in parts and wood...but even if I can't sell them as art to the National Art Gallery, I am satisfied with creating them.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

carver you might remember we asked you more than a year ago to show us a picture or 2 because Karen had said that your carvings are magical, beautiful ...

but you were too modest & never showed anything.

there are museums of folk art, perhaps i should find one for you? if i were the curator of one, i'd be interested in building a collection of native handmade instruments ... if you have a guitar to spare, there might be some great gift tax credits for you !


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> This sounds about right. often times they have "plants" amongst the bidders to drive up prices. Recently, I heard that a famous Picasso nude sold for 106 million and he's been dead for quite a few years.
> 
> http://www.ibtimes.com/picasso-painting-sells-over-106-million-highest-sold-art-auction-193524
> 
> ...


 ... :encouragement:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> carver you might remember we asked you more than a year ago to show us a picture or 2 because Karen had said that your carvings are magical, beautiful ...
> 
> *but you were too modest & never showed anything.*


I'm just to modest..and for the life of me..I can't seem to get an imbedded picture in this forum.



> if i were the curator of one, i'd be interested in building a collection of native handmade instruments ... if you have a guitar to spare, there might be some great gift tax credits for you !


Well thank you for that thought. I'm not sure which one I could spare..but what kind of tax credits could I get for it?:biggrin:

How do you imbed pictures? (insert image)..doesn't work for me. it keeps telling me I exceed my quota by 57.2kb.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... :encouragement:


I would use plastic paints on a plastic sheet with plastic money for the borders. In the middle..well any suggestions..besides an Andy Warhol technique..
take some brushes, dip them in buckets of paint..then throw the colors on in random fashion to create a technicolor image that will just knock your socks off!....and have people competing bids against each other to own it..then auction it off at Christie's Auction for millions..then sell it to the National Art Gallery. They have lots of money to waste/shred/burn..ok maybe not burn..as the new money just melts. 

...or maybe just peel the labels off some Habitant soups and glue them onto a bristol board?
Look if Andy Warhol's work fetches over 9 million these days..just think what Carver's work will fetch in 20 to 40 years!


> Price Realized (Set Currency)
> $9,042,500
> Sales totals are hammer price plus buyer’s premium and do not reflect costs, financing fees or application of buyer’s or seller’s credits.


http://www.christies.com/features/2010-october-andy-warhol-campbells-soup-can-tomato-1022-1.aspx

Attention all youse rich folks on CMF, who are just so loaded you don't know what to invest in next? Why not invest in art?

I have some Habitant (Canadian) soup cans, which I can take the labels off and glue them on a piece of plywood and sign it
"the great carverman" 2013... (after the end of the Mayan world)

I'm very modest and realize that my artwork is relatively unknown..so naturally I can't charge millions for it..but it will be an original
and even if it's worth that by the time I'm gone..I won't need the money anyway...so I'll open the starting bid on the CMF forum...
How much for "Voice of the Canadian soup con..ne sieur?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

carverman said:


> I'm just to modest..and for the life of me..I can't seem to get an imbedded picture in this forum.
> 
> How do you imbed pictures? (insert image)..doesn't work for me. it keeps telling me I exceed my quota by 57.2kb.


i know what you mean. You have to export that photograph to a free picture storage farm in the internet. Flickr will do.

the problem with Flickr these days is that recently Yahoo the owner began asking for money for a registration that will permit the photo owners to download their photos to 3rd party sites like cmf forum. Or 3rd parties like family & friends.

so either you have to pay - it's about 6.50 a month - or else there is a way to sort of hack their photo farm. Apparently Flickr knows about this & they even talk openly about it, so it does seem to be legal. In other words, it's easier to pay; but for smart folks it's just as easy to hack each:

so one thing at a time. First, get a Flickr account on yahoo. Then upload a couple of photos onto it. Then we'll explain how to hack each:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> I would use plastic paints on a plastic sheet with plastic money for the borders. In the middle..well any suggestions..besides an Andy Warhol technique..
> take some brushes, dip them in buckets of paint..then throw the colors on in random fashion to create a technicolor image that will just knock your socks off!....and have people competing bids against each other to own it..then auction it off at Christie's Auction for millions..then sell it to the National Art Gallery. They have lots of money to waste.
> 
> ...or maybe just peel the labels off some Habitant soups and glue them onto a bristol board?
> ...


 .. excusing me I'm just cracking up at the moment ... :highly_amused:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> .. excusing me I'm just cracking up at the moment ... :highly_amused:


Ok...that's what I can put in the middle of my picture..cracked eggs...just smear the yokes around on a canvas...and call it...

"Eggman" (from I am the eggman..i am the walrus"
See, art is fun..and can be quite lucrative investment..if you can find some suckers that have so much money, they haven't a clue.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Well at least the painting is partially "natural" ...lol. Actually, I like your "Habitant soup label" idea since the Andy Warhol technique can't go wrong on folks with $$$ to splurge ... and the plastic money border adds a Canadian investment touch. :encouragement: Now you need humble to find the right gallery to show-case your works ... :biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

With real Canadian plastic money glued to the borders (like a matte frame), my soup can art will always be worth..the minimum issue value.

I just need to wait until they issue the $5 plastic notes, as $20 bills are just to expensive for me to use as wallpaper on art.
This is an innovative idea, because if you buy my art and someday need some money to buy some food, you can remove the plastic money to buy Habitant
cans of soup. It's basically art you can actually bank on. 
But there are artists out there using money as a medium...check this out..
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/news-brief/guggenheim-use-100000-dollar-bills-art


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Ok..this has nothing to do with the gov't or art scams..(maybe insider trading scams?), but I didn't want to start a new thread on the same old-same old...people that collect such a vast fortune, that money (millions) are meanlingless.
Here's the short of it..casino owner owns a Piccasso (La Reve)



> Wynn sold "The Dream" to *Steven Cohen, who owns the hedge fund SAC Capital, for a cool $155 million.*
> 
> The Financial Times reports that SAC Capital just paid $614 million to settle accusations of insider trading. The paper adds that this private art sale could be a record.


Interesting enough on this piece of modern art is that it originally was to be sold for $106 million in 2006..(that's 7 years ago), but the owner accidently whacked it with his elbow as he was packing it up
and left a tear in the canvas. Now normally for most paintings it might have devalued it..after all who wants a original master painting with a tear in the canvas...but ..

No problemo..expert restoral using crazy glue brought it back to "near mint" condition and now 7 years later it finally sold for $155 million.:greedy_dollars:

Makes you investors out there wonder if you are in the wrong business? :biggrin:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...e-wynn-sells-picassos-le-r-ve-for-155-million


As I mentioned before yous CMF guys (and gals)..I iz a "starving" artiste! For a mere $100,000 of Harpers plastic money, I can make you a nice original paintin' and even frame it for you. 
If you want some moth holes in it...to make it look aged, of course,..no problems...I can stick it in a damp musty basement with silverfish to "age it" like fine cheese or wine. 
Then, in a few years (after I'm gone), you can sell it at Christie's for millions. :biggrin:


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There was a recent story about a guy who passed away and they found a whole house full of paintings that he had done.

He had never sold any they knew about. Nobody had ever heard of him. It didn't happen that long ago.

But...................an art dealer gathered them up and put them on display.

One sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars.............a nice painting of squiggly lines and blotches of paint........abstract art you know.

Then they valued "the collection" at tens of millions of dollars.

Like they say..................Things are worth what somebody is willing to pay for it.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

True, but the artist rarely, if ever gets to reap the benefits from the sale of his art. 

Take Van Goghs (Starry Night), which incidently, inspired Don McClean's pretty song >Starry Starry Night.

Vincent Van Gough was shunned as an artist. His works were considered inferior..he barely survived and died penniless by taking his own life
..now his paintings hang in famous galleries throughout the world and are priceless..worth hundreds of millions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD1ih3Q9otE

"how you suffered for your sanity,,,they did not listen then... they did not know how..perhaps they'll listen now" 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_van_Gogh


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> True, but the artist rarely, if ever gets to reap the benefits from the sale of his art.
> 
> Take Van Goghs (Starry Night), which incidently, inspired Don McClean's pretty song >Starry Starry Night.
> 
> ...


 ... as convoluted as it gets. :confused2:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... as convoluted as it gets. :confused2:


You missed my point Beav. Van Gogh was never appreciated as an artist during his lifetime..he got so depressed he actually cut off his ear..to avoid hearing art critics put down his
art. They didn't listen then...but they are sure listening now...his art is *priceless* now and really appreciated..you couldn't find a *MasterCard big enough to buy his art*.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

I didn't mean your point was convoluted. I meant the whole idea of appreciating (priceless) the artist's works when he's dead and not when he's alive (a price for his work) is convoluted.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

That's the way it seems to be with art and artists...that's where the term "starving artists" came from. 
During an artist's lifetime, he may exhibit his works and maybe even sell some pieces for a small fee, but generally he doesn't get rich from it.

After his death, however, and depending on how many people knew of him, any pieces left in his estate escalate in price, especially when he is
"acclaimed" by art critics..which then "fuels" people with the means to buy the art as an investment..and sell it a few years later at Chriistie's auction house..which escalate the prices even more. In other words, to be famous as an artist..you have to be dead and not benefit from the value placed on your artistic creations. 

Andy Warhol and his "Tomato soup can" modern art was never really worth much until after his death. 

Tom Thompson (and other Group of Seven Artists) made a meager existence in their
lifetimes painting various scenes of Canadiana. Now many years after his death, Tom Thomson's "The West Wind" is considered a significant part of Canadian art treasures and is priceless. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_West_Wind_(painting)


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Never mind about ponying up $100 to write an essay for a draw on a house that cannot be bought for less than $300K, would you buy this house? http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-buzz/historical-montreal-home-listing-emits-ghostly-aura-165253746.html This probably shouldn't go under the Scam Thread but then this wouldn't be appropriate for the House Swap Vacations thread either. :biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> Never mind about ponying up $100 to write an essay for a draw on a house that cannot be bought for less than $300K, would you buy this house? This probably shouldn't go under the Scam Thread but then this wouldn't be appropriate for the House Swap Vacations thread either. :biggrin:


Only $579K you say..and you only have to replace the plumbing, wiring, kitchen, bathrooms and from the looks of it..all the woodwork outside..add another $150K minimum..maybe more
since it's in Montreal and the contractors are known for their scams. No parking for your car either. Ghosts (if any are free).
Unless somebody famous lived there....it's not exactly a steal at that price.


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