# Letter to engineers: We need to take the internet back



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Bruce Schneier, respected cryptographer and computer security expert, published this amazing letter in the Guardian. It's a message directed specifically to engineers.

Link to article: The US government has betrayed the internet. We need to take it back
_The NSA has undermined a fundamental social contract. We engineers built the internet – and now we have to fix it_

Thoughts? Let's discuss. I know there are many engineers and computer scientists on these forums. What kind of actions can we individually take to restore integrity to the internet? Can one do anything through professional associations (say IEEE) or through our universities? How does one become involved with the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF)?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

For those of you interested in these topics, and who work with technology, I suggest contacting your colleagues at your university and professional associations. Start a dialogue.

I've contacted trusted colleagues at my engineering faculty and asked them: what do you think we can do? How can we (engineers) exercise our social responsibility for the betterment of society?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I think engineers need to build things that are safe but also enable the principles of social policy to be implemented. The policy makers are largely not engineers.

Should engineers be activists? It would be nice. But I doubt that it will happen.

P Eng since 1968


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

the tools are there
we need some kind of non-profit to be well funded enough to make the implementation of privacy and security tools easy
there are not currently easy, they take work and most people make the calculus that whatever bit of data they are sending or receiving will dissappear into the huge numbers that constitute internet traffic

i have always believed that a better answer is to get people to start to lie as an act of civil disobedience
unless it has force of law behind there is no law against making stuff up

enough confusing and contradictory data out there would screw up the watchers

why not append the homeland securities keyword list as the sig of every email ? http://www.forbes.com/sites/reuvenc...ds-used-to-monitor-social-networking-sites/2/

get 10 or 20 million people doing that and this system will be jammed


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Sure. As long as engineers leave cryptography to the professionals (ie, cryptographers). We don't need repeats of fiascos like WEP.

I think this is something civil society in general should be engaged in. This is something that should concern everyone.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

so do i except civil society appears to not give a hoot ..

i am afraid that this will come down to the zealots and true believers carrying the water on this one

most people just don't care
or at least they don't care enough to get involved

if they knew the possible ramifications of a surveillance state that goes bad, perhaps they would get more involved


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

What are some possible ramifications? I'm ignorant on the issue. As long as my identity isn't stolen, and I'm not prosecuted for any crimes I haven't committed, then I don't care which of my activities are recorded. Maybe I should care, but I don't see why my actions are special over the other seven billion people on the planet. 

Listen and record all you want, my life is insignificant. I'm not a terrorist and my activity is irrelevant to national security.

I'm sure I'm missing the point and don't understand the issue.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

jcgd said:


> What are some possible ramifications? I'm ignorant on the issue. As long as my identity isn't stolen, and I'm not prosecuted for any crimes I haven't committed, then I don't care which of my activities are recorded. Maybe I should care, but I don't see why my actions are special over the other seven billion people on the planet.
> 
> Listen and record all you want, my life is insignificant. I'm not a terrorist and my activity is irrelevant to national security.


I'm not afraid of our governments. I think both Canadian and US governments (leaving aside the recent uncoolness) are generally well meaning and trustworthy, currently.

You asked about ramifications... what I'm concerned about is what happens in the future -- what kind of fascist, nutcase, or zealot may get into power. And I'm concerned that he will now have a ton of tools that he can use to oppress the people -- including you & me. Or my children or grandchildren.

This is about the future, not today.

If such a dangerous lunatic achieves power in the future, he will have amazing tools and databases to use to dig up dirt on his enemies; unfairly prosecute people; lock up people who threaten and oppose him; and produce paper trails of evidence to silence (or jail, execute) people he doesn't like. The problem, I think, is that *systems for future oppression are being created and perfected today.*

So it doesn't matter that your life is insignificant. Of course you're not a terrorist. And you are not going to get into any weird trouble today. Neither am I.

But are you Jewish? Are you Muslim? Are you Catholic? Are you Japanese? Chinese? Are you left leaning? Are you a supporter of unions? Are you affiliated with any political groups? Do you have any family ties to any minority group of any kind? Are you a homosexual? Do you have any friends who are homosexuals?

I mean this shouldn't be that hard to describe ... Nazi Germany wasn't that long ago. Were all those Jewish people guilty of anything? No - they were just minding their business, living their lives, and then a lunatic got into power and started abusing the people he disliked.

Now the tools and systems for doing that much more efficiently, on a larger scale, are being planted in the US, Canadian, UK, Australian governments. I think that's why you should be concerned, even if you're not a terrorist and you're not doing anything illegal.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

"If you ar really concerned, please list your name and contact information here, as well as that of anyone else you think would be interested or concerned As well. We take issues like this very seriously"

- the NSA


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

andrewf said:


> Sure. As long as engineers leave cryptography to the professionals (ie, cryptographers). We don't need repeats of fiascos like WEP.
> 
> I think this is something civil society in general should be engaged in. This is something that should concern everyone.


Yeah but, it appears the cryptographers were/are influenced or part of the NSA.
http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2013-September/017218.html


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Excess partisanship definitely is poisonous to civil discourse. It reduces policy debates to cheering for your favourite team, regardless of what they do or say.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

jcgd said:


> Listen and record all you want, my life is insignificant. I'm not a terrorist and my activity is irrelevant to national security.
> 
> I'm sure I'm missing the point and don't understand the issue.


do a bit of research into the transition to fascism that has happened in the 20th century for example ... in germany, greece, spain, argentina, iran and so on

all kinds of "insignificant", apolitical people with "nothing to hide" ended up in concentration camps, tortured or thrown out of airplanes

all kinds of people

fascism doesn't discriminate, when it is hungry, it will eat everything in sight

as james has said well, this thing (surveillance) is moving quickly and it doesn't matter how innocent you may be
all it takes is to be unlucky and at the wrong place or time

hitler loved to send people with insignificant lives to concentration camps

we are witnessing an unholy marriage of capitalism, technology and a mania for secrecy on the part of the state and it is moving steadily toward a total surveillance state

britain has now banned virtual private networks since they may compromise its new censorship regime ... not iran or north korea but britain

remember that in 1930, most germans believe that their country was the apex of civilization and democracy ... how did that go in just a few short years ?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, fatcat. You're right: fascism doesn't discriminate



fatcat said:


> britain has now banned virtual private networks since they may compromise its new censorship regime ... not iran or north korea but britain


I didn't know that! But surely businesses still use VPNs?


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Thanks for the thoughtful reply, fatcat. You're right: fascism doesn't discriminate
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know that! But surely businesses still use VPNs?


this is just developing and that remains to be seen ... how can the government pick and choose what vpn's to allow ? ... will people be required to apply to have vpn and demonstrate that it isn't designed to circumvent uk censorship ?

who knows ? ... some vpn's have been blocked

http://torrentfreak.com/uk-internet-filter-blocks-vpns-australia-to-follow-soon-130905/


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

There's probably going to be a push in coming years to outlaw certain types of cryptography and encryption. They will probably start considering them munitions, like weapons. You know ... only terrorists and child molesters use crypto, that will be the argument.

(Things like SSL where we need encryption for things like banking will probably be limited to approved, i.e. backdoored, encryption that the government can easily peek into)


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The problem with encryption with backdoors or other vulnerabilities is that it becomes vulnerable to third parties as well. 

Realistically, banning encryption is terribly difficult. The 'bad guys' will ignore you and use it anyway, so banning it will only open up the general public to oppression by states, and to harm by criminals (identity theft). The UK will soon realize how unenforceable a ban will be. Those opposed to government monitoring should encrypt all their online activity as an act of civil disobedience.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

good points james and andrew

i think that there have been ongoing efforts to weaken cryptography and damage it in various ways

but i tend to think that companies (especially large multinationals, which are behaving more like nation states every day) will demand cryptographic freedom since corporate espionage is growing apace with state sponsored espionage

most people don't care about encryption but i hope there will be a vocal, concerned (and influential) minority that won't let the issue die

governments have a huge problem: the idea that a truly free society must allow its citizens the right to communicate privately and freely is fundamental and government must somehow convince us we are free people but must surrender all of our privacy to the state, hopefully this will not be an easy task, though they will (and are) trying

another not insignificant problem is that business and government are depending on a widespread move to the internet for cost saving and efficiency, if people, even a significant minority lose faith and trust and opt out, it won't be good for either


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Well, if the NSA and other government agencies are so interested in our daily lives.....maybe we could put them to good use.

I received this story in my email today..............

_An old Italian lived alone in New Jersey . He wanted to plant his annual tomato garden, but it was very difficult work, as the ground was hard, and he wasn't as strong as he used to be.

His only son, Vincent, who used to help him, was currently in prison. The old man wrote a letter to his son and described his predicament:

Dear Vincent, 
I am feeling pretty sad, because it looks like I won't be able to plant my tomato garden this year. I'm just getting too old to be digging up a garden plot. I know if you were here my troubles would be over. I know you would be happy to dig the plot for me, like in the old days.

Love, Papa

A few days later he received a letter from his son.

Dear Pop,
Don't dig up that garden. That's where the bodies are buried.

Love, Vinnie

At 4 a.m. the next morning, FBI agents and local police arrived and dug up the entire area without finding any bodies. They apologized to the old man and left.

A few days later, the old man received another letter from his son.

Dear Pop,
Go ahead and plant the tomatoes now. That's the best I could do under the circumstances. 

Love you,
Vinnie
_


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

sags said:


> Well, if the NSA and other government agencies are so interested in our daily lives.....maybe we could put them to good use.
> 
> I received this story in my email today..............
> 
> ...


great story !


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

LOL, but if Vinnie was that smart, how come he got caught & serving jail time? 

Interesting points mentioned in this thread.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Nice story, but didn't happen. I would classify that as a joke.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Toronto.gal said:


> LOL, but if Vinnie was that smart, how come he got caught & serving jail time?
> 
> Interesting points mentioned in this thread.


 ... plenty of time for reflections in that dank cell. 



> *sags:* Well, if the NSA and other government agencies are so interested in our daily lives.....maybe we could put them to good use.


 .... indeed ... thanks for the interesting story / joke.


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