# The case for leaving the city after retirement



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

A recent thread about someone wanting to stay in their $2.5 mil home (presumably in a city like Toronto or Vancouver) prompts me to start this thread on the advantages of moving out of the city.

The last home I owned in Toronto is now worth somewhere north of $2 mil. My current home in a small Ontario town cost $200k. My current home is equal in all respects except location to the city home and what's more, it is on a piece of land 5 times the size. ie. I have no neighbours looking out their window and over the fence into my backyard. So in reality, my current home is better in many ways than the city home.

I understand people wanting to stay close to family, friends, familiar places etc. but just how big a deal is it really? We have a family physician, dentist and all the other needs we have, within 5 minutes of our home. A well equipped regional hospital within 25 minutes by ambulance and a world class teaching hospital (London) within 45 minutes. All the big box stores are within a half hour's drive.

We no longer want to go out drinking on every Friday night or care about being able to go to a baseball etc. game. TV works just fine for that. As for driving in city traffic, I don't think anyone would try to argue that they would miss that.

So just why do so many people not choose to realize the capital in their city home and move? Is it really just needing to be close to family and friends or is it also a case of not realizing that they will not be giving up anything else really if they do move. Do they think small towns are 'the sticks'? We do get internet and smartphone service you know.

Here is another major advantage of small town living. When you need a plumber, electrician, auto mechanic, they are all here but unlike in the city, they actually answer their phones and actually come and do the work you require within a very short time. What's more, you can probably trust them to do a good job and not rip you off. A plumber or auto mechanic in the town where we now live, could not stay in business if they did otherwise. It's too small a town, everyone would know and that would be the end of that. I could give you numerous examples of just how easy it is to get a tradesman you can trust in our town but you probably would accuse me of making it up. :biggrin:

If you are nearing retirement and live in a city with a home that represents considerable capital, what are your thoughts on this subject?


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Your health and your access to medical facilities and family support can impact this decision.


----------



## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> A recent thread about someone wanting to stay in their $2.5 mil home (presumably in a city like Toronto or Vancouver) prompts me to start this thread on the advantages of moving out of the city.
> 
> The last home I owned in Toronto is now worth somewhere north of $2 mil. My current home in a small Ontario town cost $200k. My current home is equal in all respects except location to the city home and what's more, it is on a piece of land 5 times the size. ie. I have no neighbours looking out their window and over the fence into my backyard. So in reality, my current home is better in many ways than the city home.
> 
> ...


Obviously you improved your actual standard of living by moving but logic doesn't usually motivate anyone. When someone talks of the advantages of living in a city such as Toronto or Manhattan what is the first things mentioned: 1. the museums 2. the restaurants. I know lots of people who have lived in Toronto for 40 years and never once went to a museum or even wanted to go there. The whole big city thing is for people under 35 with a great job, or the very rich. Otherwise, eventually all the hassles drag people down. You can literally spend 3 hours in Toronto simply waiting in line to renew your driver's license.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We considered a move to Salmon Arm and area a two years ago. Fortunately we did not. My spouse has had a year of specialist medical appointments and hospital appts. for the past year. Services that would not be available there or in Kelowna/Kamloops. My daughter and family live in Ft. Mac. They regularly drive five hours to Edmonton for medical appts. They just did it again this week. Not so great in the winter though. She has been airlifted twice. My niece, in Peterborough, has to go to Toronto on a regular basis for medical treatments and specialist visits. 

We like and we spend time in many smaller areas. But for some people there are costs, monetary and otherwise, to be considered. It is not simply a lifestyle decision.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I'm reading typical excuses/reasons, nothing new. It is entirely possible to leave the city and live in a smaller town and have equal access to the same medical care or family support members within the same timespan.

Consider this. Your Son/Daughter visits you in your old age. They live on the other side of Toronto/Vancouver wherever. It can take them as long to drive from Mississauaga to the Beach (where I lived in Toronto) as it does to drive from Mississauga to some small town west of the GTA. What would not make sense is to move to a small town east of the GTA if you want a family member in the west of the GTA to be within a reasonable driving time. It's time not distance that matters after all. As I wrote, we live within less than an hour of London, Ontario which has one of the best hospitals in Canada. There are very few specialist medical problems that would require you to go to Toronto rather than London for care. Ian, take a look at where London rates on this poll (#1) vs. whatever hospital your niece goes to in Toronto and take a look at how your own nearest hospital rates. Don't invent situations that are about as likely as winning the lottery and then try hanging your hat on them as an argument. http://www.cbc.ca/news2/health/features/ratemyhospital/hospitalratings.html

The 'trick' if you can call it that, is to pick the right place to move to.

Big Kahuna, I agree, the city is for young people and their interests or it is where you live because you work there. Once you get past that stage in life, it has very little if any advantages. But I also agree that people do not necessarily make logical decisions. They let emotions and ignorance guide them rather than logic and research. 

By the way, now that Ontario has Service Ontario, I can get my driving license renewed just a 10 minute drive down the road from me. For a passport I have to drive almost an hour to one of 5 offices within that radius. As for waiting time, the license renewal last time saw me with no wait at all, walk-in, be served. The time before I believe was about a 10 minute wait in 'line'. My last passport I picked up saw me waiting about 20 minutes though. Passport service sucks huh.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

DWs cousin moved to Chilliwack when they retired. We have never been there in 5 years. Another friend moved to Qualicum Bay three years ago and we made it to see them this summer. Another friend moved from the West Side to Penticton and we just got back from visiting them. Not for us. We are city kids.


----------



## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> If you are nearing retirement and live in a city with a home that represents considerable capital, what are your thoughts on this subject?


 After so many years of prices being up the thinking is prices are always up so why sell ? The trend is up no math carried past that of Newton to that of cycles


----------



## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Everyone in OP's situation should at least consider it, but what their decision will be depends on interests; lifestyle; distance from family and friends; distance from medical and support services; and other factors. But (most) people don't like change, and if they have been accustomed to living in the same area for 30 years, it can be hard to relocate.


----------



## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

OhGreatGuru said:


> Everyone in OP's situation should at least consider it, but what their decision will be depends on interests; lifestyle; distance from family and friends; distance from medical and support services; and other factors. But (most) people don't like change, and if they have been accustomed to living in the same area for 30 years, it can be hard to relocate.


What often motivates change in the GTA is that the area changes for you-I can remember visiting relatives in Brampton when it was an attractive smaller city. Obviously that city no longer exists.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

lonewolf :) said:


> After so many years of prices being up the thinking is prices are always up so why sell ? The trend is up no math carried past that of Newton to that of cycles





OhGreatGuru said:


> Everyone in OP's situation should at least consider it, but what their decision will be depends on interests; lifestyle; distance from family and friends; distance from medical and support services; and other factors. But (most) people don't like change, and if they have been accustomed to living in the same area for 30 years, it can be hard to relocate.


Lonewolf, that thinking is all about false logic. 'If I just hang on a few more years, I will make X more profit'. Well yeah, but if in the meantime you actually cannot afford to live in the city because your income in retirement is very close to your expenses in retirement, then how is that giving you good quality of life? By freeing the capital tied up in your city house that is earning you no income in your pocket (your pocket is different from a capital gain) and putting that freed up capital to work earning you income, you can improve your quality of life.

Keep in mind that the reality is that by the time people retire, they are on the down slope of life, not the still building up side. The primary objective is not to increase net worth, it is to increase the quality of life for your remaining years. As I used to tell my Mother, the goal is to spend your last dollar on your last day and leave nothing behind. Not really possible to plan but I think you can get the idea.

A member of my family held on year after year as prices rose until in the last year before selling, he was sitting in his Toronto condo worrying about his washing machine breaking down or needing a new refrigerator, because his income and expenses were pretty equal. He had to think twice before going out and spending money on a lunch in a restaurant. He was property rich but cash poor. One year after selling up and moving to a small town where what he sold for could have bought him 3 detached houses, he was kicking himself for waiting. You can't assume that someone staying in the city doesn't have any real need to make a change. Often they do in retirement but just won't admit it to themselves.

OhGreatGuru, all your points have already been covered above. They are in my opinion, excuses not reasons. Reasons are by definition things that you can present a 'reasoned' argument for. I'd like to hear anyone give a reasoned argument for why they cannot move out of a city, I can't think of one myself. Here is the only real argument I can think of for staying in the city that anyone could present. If you have enough income in retirement to continue to live in the city with the quality of life you are happy with, then you have no need to move. But if that is not the case?

The question of whether to move out or not is not directed at those who do not need to, it is directed at those who are actually allowing their quality of life to suffer when in fact they do not need to do so. ie. as per my family member I've just described here. I happen to think there are more people who should be looking at moving and are not looking, than there are people who do not need to look at moving.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

There is also the quality of life issues. Less noise pollution. Fewer traffic jams. Cheaper property.

But you might find it hard to get regular meal delivery, household help.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

None of us get out alive and we don't get a trophy for living a couple extra years by hooking up to a bunch of tubes. Better to get the bucket list shrinking and enjoy our last years.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

The flip side to living in small town is when you get to the point where you need more care, it’s much harder. My good friends parents love small town living and are about an hour and half a way from the City. Basic dr appointments are fine, however specialist appointments must be made for the city. If you are getting up in age, driving has b come harder. There are less s rvoces avaible to help. Homecare, cleaning and home maintenance, nursing aids, etc are hard to come b. My friends parents shouldn’t be driving but do because there is no local transit or taxis. 

living in a small town though less expensive, has become much more difficult.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

We wouldn't move to smallsville because we have no need to access the equity in our house.
If we were to sell and move it would be for less driving, less yard and upkeep, more convience, and closer to family - not the other way around.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> When someone talks of the advantages of living in a city such as Toronto or Manhattan what is the first things mentioned: 1. the museums 2. the restaurants. I know lots of people who have lived in Toronto for 40 years and never once went to a museum or even wanted to go there.


 I don't care at all about Toronto museums, they are pathetic , but I want to have access to European food , I doubt that except Toronto I can find any good Russian/Ukranian/Polish stores and supermarket (sorry, but I don't like Canadian food). 
Another reason, I want to leave close to major airport (max 1 -1.30 hour to GTA)


----------



## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

gibor365 said:


> I don't care at all about Toronto museums, they are pathetic , but I want to have access to European food , I doubt that except Toronto I can find any good Russian/Ukranian/Polish stores and supermarket (sorry, but I don't like Canadian food).
> Another reason, I want to leave close to major airport (max 1 -1.30 hour to GTA)


We don't eat Canadian food anymore either-we used to eat Chinese and Italian, now it is Japanese and Thai.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> The flip side to living in small town is when you get to the point where you need more care, it’s much harder. My good friends parents love small town living and are about an hour and half a way from the City. Basic dr appointments are fine, however specialist appointments must be made for the city. If you are getting up in age, driving has b come harder. There are less s rvoces avaible to help. Homecare, cleaning and home maintenance, nursing aids, etc are hard to come b. My friends parents shouldn’t be driving but do because there is no local transit or taxis.
> 
> living in a small town though less expensive, has become much more difficult.


What you are describing makes some sense Plugging Along but just emphasizes the importance of knowing which criteria to use when starting a search for the place to live. We live within less than 1 hour of a regional airport and do not make the 3 hour drive to Toronto airport. We are also under an hour from a major hospital as I covered above. We are within a 10 minute walk of a supermarket, pharmacy, bank, etc. There is homecare, nursing, house cleaning and house maintenance all available if needed. Uber takes care of the taxi issue.

But I do agree that not everywhere is as well provided for. Again, you just have to pick the right place.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> We wouldn't move to smallsville because we have no need to access the equity in our house.
> If we were to sell and move it would be for less driving, less yard and upkeep, more convience, and closer to family - not the other way around.


The only reason that makes any sense for not selling and moving as I have already said OnlyMyOpinion. If you don't need the equity generating income, it isn't part of what this thread is about. No need to move as you say. This is really about people who could benefit from moving but instead stay in the city living on less income and not getting enough quality of life because they are sitting on their equity instead of using it to generate income to improve their quality of life. If you don't need it, well done.


----------



## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I could also make a case for a smaller place in the city, say 750-1,000 sq. ft for a couple. At the end of the day, you don't NEED that much to live with/less stuff is really needed; you are close to amenities and you can take any equity from the larger home to kill off debt; vacation abroad; rent a cottage for a month or so with a "home base" in the city.

Seems like a great option that we intend to pursue ourselves.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

gibor365 said:


> I don't care at all about Toronto museums, they are pathetic , but I want to have access to European food , I doubt that except Toronto I can find any good Russian/Ukranian/Polish stores and supermarket (sorry, but I don't like Canadian food).
> Another reason, I want to leave close to major airport (max 1 -1.30 hour to GTA)





Big Kahuna said:


> We don't eat Canadian food anymore either-we used to eat Chinese and Italian, now it is Japanese and Thai.


I can't really argue in favour of small town living on the food issue. At least not in terms of finding good restaurants. They are pretty few and far between when you leave the cities. But you can of course cook any kind of food you want and getting the ingredients in today's internet shopping world is not an issue. 

Your comment re food does point out though that everything is a compromise. You may have to give up or get more creative about something in order to enjoy the other benefits of such a move.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

My Own Advisor said:


> I could also make a case for a smaller place in the city, say 750-1,000 sq. ft for a couple. At the end of the day, you don't NEED that much to live with/less stuff is really needed; you are close to amenities and you can take any equity from the larger home to kill off debt; vacation abroad; rent a cottage for a month or so with a "home base" in the city.
> 
> Seems like a great option that we intend to pursue ourselves.


Makes perfect sense My Own Advisor if the math works for you. The objective is to free equity in order to have the quality of life you want. If you can do so without freeing any equity at all or by only freeing some of the equity and still staying in the city if that is what you prefer, then it can make sense to do that.

There are some advantages to a small town that you may still not get, that are not financially connected, but if there are some advantages you enjoy about being in the city, then it's all about which matters more to you. For example, after having lived in a small town for a few years now, when I go into my local bank branch, the tellers greet me by name. So does my local garage where I have my car serviced, the staff at the local library and several other stores I frequent. How often does that happen in the city? I certainly can't remember any bank teller greeting me by name.

When it comes to home maintenance/improvements etc. as I have already mentioned here, it is not hard to find people you can trust to do the work you need done. An auto mechanic, a plumber, electrician, garden maintenance, etc. All easily found and reliable. 

It's not all just about money is my point to you.


----------



## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

I agree with the op, there is no point in being house rich and cash poor in the big city. Unlock the equity by selling, move to a cheaper area, buy assets that produce income, and have fun with the money. Now one can still have fun in the city by occasionally driving there. They can probably afford the city fun more by leaving, and just visiting.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

We have an acquaintance who has tried to sell his house for $3.9 million for four years. He and his wife have no heirs. Why was he holding out for his price? Because he considered it a scoreboard issue.

Now he has it up for $2.999 million and still not sold. He made the big bet on finding a greater fool and lost. He is in a cash squeeze now because of a CRA audit and Vancouver extraordinary city tax.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> I can't really argue in favour of small town living on the food issue. At least not in terms of finding good restaurants. They are pretty few and far between when you leave the cities. But you can of course cook any kind of food you want and getting the ingredients in today's internet shopping world is not an issue.
> 
> Your comment re food does point out though that everything is a compromise. You may have to give up or get more creative about something in order to enjoy the other benefits of such a move.


Good food it's maybe one of 5 top things I enjoy in my life . And , as an example, you wouldn't be able to make cold or hot smoked sturgeon or salmon how North Fish in Etobicoke does or make Barillo salamis (the only company in Ontario who make good kolbasas). 
I'm drying fish that I catch (excellent with beer ), but still North Fish does is better. 
Once I ordered smoked salmon and salamis online from Costco , and it had very good review, but it was a real crap! Disgusting! I just cannot get why North American food (and beer btw) is so tasteless!


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

kcowan said:


> We have an acquaintance who has tried to sell his house for $3.9 million for four years. He and his wife have no heirs. Why was he holding out for his price? Because he considered it a scoreboard issue.
> 
> Now he has it up for $2.999 million and still not sold. He made the big bet on finding a greater fool and lost. He is in a cash squeeze now because of a CRA audit and Vancouver extraordinary city tax.


It amazes me how so many people seem to do things like this kcowan. There is a house not far from me that has been for sale for 9 years now. Nothing really wrong with the house other than the interior is dated and needs renovated but the owners have a price in mind and until they can get it, they aren't going to sell. They'll probably die before it sells.

Some years ago, I sold a house in Toronto within a couple of weeks and a short time later was introduced to a guy at a party who had been trying to sell his house in Oakville for over a year. The host had told him how quickly I had sold and he asked me how I had managed to sell the house that quickly. I told him that I priced the house at what my trusted real estate agent told me the market would bear, not at the price I thought I should get for it. He didn't find my reply to his liking. LOL

What people think their house is worth and what the market will pay are usually two different numbers. The only number that matters is the latter.


----------



## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> It amazes me how so many people seem to do things like this kcowan. There is a house not far from me that has been for sale for 9 years now. Nothing really wrong with the house other than the interior is dated and needs renovated but the owners have a price in mind and until they can get it, they aren't going to sell. They'll probably die before it sells.
> 
> Some years ago, I sold a house in Toronto within a couple of weeks and a short time later was introduced to a guy at a party who had been trying to sell his house in Oakville for over a year. The host had told him how quickly I had sold and he asked me how I had managed to sell the house that quickly. I told him that I priced the house at what my trusted real estate agent told me the market would bear, not at the price I thought I should get for it. He didn't find my reply to his liking. LOL
> 
> What people think their house is worth and what the market will pay are usually two different numbers. The only number that matters is the latter.


Always a mistake to overprice a house-once it sits for a while the buyers look at it differently/negatively- it loses that aura that sucks in the buyer. They always want what other people want or what they think other people want.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> What you are describing makes some sense Plugging Along but just *emphasizes the importance of knowing which criteria to use when starting a search for the place to live*. We live within less than 1 hour of a regional airport and do not make the 3 hour drive to Toronto airport. We are also under an hour from a major hospital as I covered above. We are within a 10 minute walk of a supermarket, pharmacy, bank, etc. There is homecare, nursing, house cleaning and house maintenance all available if needed. Uber takes care of the taxi issue.
> 
> But I do agree that not everywhere is as well provided for. Again, you just have to pick the right place.


Your point about choosing the right place to live is true. However the right place to live will depend on your current love situation and phase. The right place in raising a family is different than when you are an empty nesters at your prime vs a retirees traveling the world vs an 80 year with more health issues. 

If you have traditional purchased your home vs rented, then moving and selling is often expensive, but more importantly it takes a toll. The older your are, the more routine one wants and needs. 

My parents have lived in their same home for over 50 years. They aren’t going to move until they need to go into a care home or pass away. Asking them to move to a smaller town, they would think is crazy. Their whole quality of life revolved around visiting with friends and family, and having a good meal that suites. Happiness for them is knowing they can quickly drop by and see the grandkids, an hour drive (our closest small town) would not be acceptable.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Again, all true Plugging Along but the thread is really about people whose quality of live is suffering because they are property rich but cash poor in retirement and yet can't seem to see the solution right in front of them. There is no point being a 10 minute walk from the grandkids if you can't afford to buy them an ice cream. 

You seem to just want to find reasons why moving isn't a good idea and ignore who the thread is aimed at and why. Staying in a location is fine as long as you can afford to stay there and not have your quality of life suffer. But many people retire and refuse to move, even though their income is no longer enough to maintain the quality of life they want to have. That makes no sense at all. It's better to drive an hour to see family than to sit in your house and eat Kraft dinner more often than not.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

LTA, you are going to find it very frustrating to insist that your threads stay in a narrow focus.

People feel they have something to contribute and take the time to post, whether it is moving to free up equity, moving to downsize/declutter, moving in/out of the city, pros/cons of moving at all, etc. That's what makes this a discussion forum. And some subjects will be more prone to tangents than others.

You have good comments and contributions, I hope you won't find this too off-putting.


----------



## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

For the most part first time home buyers are now priced out of the market. The people buying a house are selling a house. Hard for everyone to down size to a cheaper house when first time home buyers are not buying & those in expensive houses want to down size


----------



## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

People that are property rich can unlock the equity in their homes if they chose without moving.
Property taxes can be deferred where I live, climate is a good reason for not moving here in the Vancouver area, moving to a small town and dealing with winter is not very attractive for many. There are higher costs for hydro/gas both in summer and winter away from Vancouver, my daughter moved to a smaller community in the north a few years ago life is good for her but her hydro bills in winter average 450.00 a month mine is little more than 100.00 and I don't need air conditioning in summer.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

lonewolf :) said:


> For the most part first time home buyers are now priced out of the market. The people buying a house are selling a house. Hard for everyone to down size to a cheaper house when first time home buyers are not buying & those in expensive houses want to down size


I think that is a bit to generalized lonewolf. My brother sold his Toronto Harbourfront condo in 3 days. It wasn't hard to sell obviously. With what he got for that 1 bedroom shoebox condo, he was able to buy 3 (but only bought 1) detached 2 bedroom houses in a small town in Ontario. He didn't 'downsize', he 'upsized' and still had 2/3 of the money left over!

Again, the people the thread was intended to address, is those who are house rich but cash poor and as a result, their lifestyle in retirement is suffering. They have an alternative if they wish to look at it.


----------



## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

...add to that, some of the rampant speculation in the Vancouver (& maybe Toronto..dunno) is cooling. One property in Pt Grey (Vancouver), "originally" for 14 mill, sold for 7.9 mill - a 43% drop. The assessed value (july 2018) is 7.46 mill. Still stratospheric, but clearly a substantial drop. 

With all this RE speculation, the only thing that matters is what's in the account after the sale. In the above case, the house is new and sold for slightly above assessed value in arguably one of the most over-valued markets in Canada. Ergo, if you have a "used" place, with limited amounts of bling and shiny cabinets - can one expect a 10-20% drop (over assessed value) in cash in the bank? Not sure.

One has be careful with assumptions - just ask the owners of the cube house.


----------



## 319905 (Mar 7, 2016)

"If you are nearing retirement and live in a city with a home that represents considerable capital, what are your thoughts on this subject?"

I currently live in what's labelled by the real estate dudes as a "desirable" part of the city, closing soon, and am looking forward to moving to what's not labelled by the real estate dudes as a desirable part of the city ... much like what my current neighborhood was in '93 when I moved in ... at 1/3 to 1/2 the capital/operational cost depending. Same services, much quieter/lower density, basically no traffic getting in/out of town which is mainly what we do, families where the neighborhood kids play together on their lawns ... nice to see, and on and on ... 

Was talking with an agent who recently sold, downsized, moved to an expensive downtown condo to be "close to everything" ... after 6 months he's seen everything, thinking maybe he made a mistake. 

My thinking (and others), a $6 Presto Card can get me "close to everything" should I choose, and leave me with $$$$$$s that I didn't have when I lived there ... my thoughts.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Daniel A. said:


> People that are property rich can unlock the equity in their homes if they chose without moving.
> Property taxes can be deferred where I live, climate is a good reason for not moving here in the Vancouver area, moving to a small town and dealing with winter is not very attractive for many. There are higher costs for hydro/gas both in summer and winter away from Vancouver, my daughter moved to a smaller community in the north a few years ago life is good for her but her hydro bills in winter average 450.00 a month mine is little more than 100.00 and I don't need air conditioning in summer.


Daniel A. one anecdotal story about someone who moved north in BC is easily rebutted by one anecdotal story of someone who moved south in Ontario. Where your Daughter paid $450 a month after her move, someone else paid $100, down from $450 when they moved. As for not needing air conditioning in summer, no, I don't imagine you do with all that rain Vancouver is famous for but Vancouverites never seem to mention. If you are going to try hanging your hat on one point of difference, then I suppose you would not object to someone from Regina or Saskatoon suggesting that if people lived in their cities, they would need only 1/4 of the number of umbrellas over their lifetime, as they only get around 1/4 of the rain you get.

This is not about extolling the pros of one specific place vs. another as your story does. It is about the reality that in general, throughout Canada, it is cheaper to live in a small town in the country than to live in a city and that the capital you release when you sell in the city is generally several times more than what it costs to buy in the country. That difference then allows you to improve your standard of living accordingly.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

rikk2 said:


> "If you are nearing retirement and live in a city with a home that represents considerable capital, what are your thoughts on this subject?"
> 
> I currently live in what's labelled by the real estate dudes as a "desirable" part of the city, closing soon, and am looking forward to moving to what's not labelled by the real estate dudes as a desirable part of the city ... much like what my current neighborhood was in '93 when I moved in ... at 1/3 to 1/2 the capital/operational cost depending. Same services, much quieter/lower density, basically no traffic getting in/out of town which is mainly what we do, families where the neighborhood kids play together on their lawns ... nice to see, and on and on ...
> 
> ...


A good example of how a move can work to your advantage rikk2, even without having to leave the city. I like it.

I'm reminded when you talk about 'desirable' parts of the city and how RE agents refer to them, of the area of Toronto that I last lived in. It has been called 'the Beach' or 'the Beaches' depending on which side of the argument you favour, for many, many decades. But there is no argument that the northern boundary of the Beach is Kingston Road. Then the RE people started referring to the 'Upper Beaches' which gave the area north of Kingston Road some of the 'glamour' of a 'Beach' address, without the price. LOL. But whether we laugh at the 'Upper' nonsense as an RE agent's ploy or not, the fact is that by moving just a few blocks north you can buy an equal house for nearly half the price of one south of Kingston road and unlock half the equity you had in the 'real' Beach address you left.

The amusing part of that move rickk2, is that you move from a 'desirable' Beach neighbourhood to a 'desirable' Beach neighbourhood, according to the RE dudes.


----------



## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

Interesting discussion. I moved away from the city to Headingley, which is a community 5 km from Winnipeg just before I retired 15 years ago. In my case it was the opposite situation of realizing a large gain on the move since it cost me $200k more than the proceeds from my old place, to build a new house. It's a custom built house on a .815 acre lot in a semi-rural setting. I have no reason to ever go back downtown now that I don't have to drive there for work each day. I haven't been downtown in ~ 10 years. It was the best thing I ever did. Here are some reasons:

o More space.
o Almost no crime. Winnipeg is getting to be a pesthole of murder and mayhem.
o Quieter.
o 10 minutes from all amenities.
o Lower taxes that are spent wisely instead of wasteful corrupt Winnipeg politicians. I can see evidence of my taxes being used to improve the community every year.
o Much bigger house and lot than are possible in Winnipeg.
o Better services. Example: Snow removal is immediate and proficient. Snow drifts built up in Winnipeg until you got stuck on your street and had to call the City to complain.
o No further away from children & grand children than I was before.

I'm glad I made the move and I'm not the only one doing it. More and more people here are getting away from the city to surrounding communities for all the reasons I mentioned. Urban sprawl is killing city budgets, and urban planners hate people like me. They want dense housing and people using public transportation but you can't stop people from wanting more space and freedom. It's just human nature.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

pwm said:


> Interesting discussion. I moved away from the city to Headingley, which is a community 5 km from Winnipeg just before I retired 15 years ago. In my case it was the opposite situation of realizing a large gain on the move since it cost me $200k more than the proceeds from my old place, to build a new house. It's a custom built house on a .815 acre lot in a semi-rural setting. I have no reason to ever go back downtown now that I don't have to drive there for work each day. I haven't been downtown in ~ 10 years. It was the best thing I ever did. Here are some reasons:
> 
> o More space.
> o Almost no crime. Winnipeg is getting to be a pesthole of murder and mayhem.
> ...


o More than half the home sales in our small Southwestern Ontario town are now made to 'out of town' buyers, usually from the bigger towns/cities like Toronto.
o Crime tends to consist of a student from the local satellite university campus stealing a street sign to hang in their dorm room.
o Quieter, except for a lot more birds singing.
o Under 10 minutes to the supermarket, dentist, family doctor, pharmacy, auto garage and anything else needed.
o Lower taxes as noted.
o Three bedroom, 2 bathroom, ranch style home on a 100x180 lot. Our neighbours on both sides are on 200x180 lots. We have the 'small' lot.
o Snow removal is an annual source of amusement for my wife and I. Since the snow plow driver is paid for his 8 hour shift and he runs his 'route' regardless of whether only 1" of snow has fallen since he started, every 3/4s of an hour. He plows more bare road repeatedly than he does snow. We sit there and say, 'there's the snow plow going past again, I hope he gets some snow for his next pass, he must be getting bored.' We feel sorry for him that it isn't snowing enough.


----------



## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> Daniel A. one anecdotal story about someone who moved north in BC is easily rebutted by one anecdotal story of someone who moved south in Ontario. Where your Daughter paid $450 a month after her move, someone else paid $100, down from $450 when they moved. As for not needing air conditioning in summer, no, I don't imagine you do with all that rain Vancouver is famous for but Vancouverites never seem to mention. If you are going to try hanging your hat on one point of difference, then I suppose you would not object to someone from Regina or Saskatoon suggesting that if people lived in their cities, they would need only 1/4 of the number of umbrellas over their lifetime, as they only get around 1/4 of the rain you get.
> 
> This is not about extolling the pros of one specific place vs. another as your story does. It is about the reality that in general, throughout Canada, it is cheaper to live in a small town in the country than to live in a city and that the capital you release when you sell in the city is generally several times more than what it costs to buy in the country. That difference then allows you to improve your standard of living accordingly.


The other thing is that nowhere in Canada is the climate reasonable year round-you have to get south in the winter to experience a nice climate year round no matter where you live in Canada.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> But there is no argument that the northern boundary of the Beach is Kingston Road. Then the RE people started referring to the 'Upper Beaches' which gave the area north of Kingston Road some of the 'glamour' of a 'Beach' address, without the price. LOL. But whether we laugh at the 'Upper' nonsense as an RE agent's ploy or not, the fact is that by moving just a few blocks north you can buy an equal house for nearly half the price of one south of Kingston road and unlock half the equity you had in the 'real' Beach address you left...


I agree with your definitions because my son owns in Upper and a good friend just sold in The Beach. The spread is no longer 100%. More like 30% now. And there are more parks nearby in Upper Beach for young families.


----------



## bass player (Jan 27, 2016)

pwm said:


> Interesting discussion. I moved away from the city to Headingley, which is a community 5 km from Winnipeg just before I retired 15 years ago. In my case it was the opposite situation of realizing a large gain on the move since it cost me $200k more than the proceeds from my old place, to build a new house. It's a custom built house on a .815 acre lot in a semi-rural setting. I have no reason to ever go back downtown now that I don't have to drive there for work each day. I haven't been downtown in ~ 10 years. It was the best thing I ever did. Here are some reasons:
> 
> o More space.
> o Almost no crime. Winnipeg is getting to be a pesthole of murder and mayhem.
> ...


I live in Winnipeg and am happy. But, I'm in the "right" spot. I have a 1.68 acre lot near the perimeter in a very low crime area...most of the crime is in a few well known pockets of the city and the rest of it is safe. My taxes are low, and and my street is plowed quickly.

It all depends on where you live in the city...some parts are far better than others. And, while you may still be close to children and grand children, if I moved to Headingly I'd be 45 minutes away. Everyone's situation is different.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We live in Calgary. We considered a move to Salmon Arm or Vernon. In the end we stayed put.

This past 6 months made us thankful we did not move. At least nine visits to a medical specialist by DW and a subsequent nuero surgery/procedure in hospital. 

Had we relocated it would have meant trips to either Vancouver or Calgary.

This is something that really did not enter into our thought process when we were considering a move.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Big Kahuna said:


> The other thing is that nowhere in Canada is the climate reasonable year round-you have to get south in the winter to experience a nice climate year round no matter where you live in Canada.


I've heard that in Victoria there is nice climate all year around


----------



## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

gibor365 said:


> I've heard that in Victoria there is nice climate all year around


It is OK by Canadian standards but obviously Canadian standards for year round weather are very low-if you live in most places in Canada and get south for at least 3 months every winter the weather you experience overall will be far superior to living in Victoria (or anywhere in Canada) year round.


----------



## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

My point was that they talk about people moving in retirement to say Victoria for better weather but it doesn't make a lot of sense-you need to go south if you want better weather in retirement.


----------



## 319905 (Mar 7, 2016)

Victoria ... visited relatives on the Island spring before last, toured around considering relocating out there ... geez, the whole place is under construction, Victoria was a total gridlock (okokok, maybe a bit of an exaggeration). Short story, no to the Island ... and it was rainy/overcast most of the time but the plan was if we did relocate just head South for most of the winter ... my aunt and uncle moved back after a year out there to the the clear winter skies of Ontario ... just couldn't tolerate the overcast. Moving there would be a step up in high density my impression. 

About Ontario winters, I for one appreciate them ... clear skies, fresh air, cool temperatures, lots of room to roam around ... what's not to like?

As to "heading south" my preference would be Europe/South Pacific for some leisurely touring/lounging around. The US, Caribbean ... no thanks, not for me.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We head for warmer climes in the winter. Since retiring it has been SE Asia or Central America. We are not particularly interested in the US or the Caribbean either.

We have been to Victoria often. We lived on the west coast for 20 plus years. Yes, it is mild in the winter but it is not what I would call warm beach weather.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

You cannot take one example and hang your hat on it. 

What constitutes 'reasonable year round climate', depends entirely on the individual. Someone who is a snowmobile fan will disagree entirely with anyone who says you have to go south. Someone who considers the fall colours in Ontario or Quebec to be the best time of year, will disagree, someone who prefers to have 4 real seasons in the year with the differences in nature they bring, will disagree, etc. Climate is completely an individual preference. Florida is a lot of people's idea of hell. Going south is *not* everyone's answer. It also has nothing to do with whether to stay in a city or release capital and move to a smaller town with lower house prices, which is the topic of this thread.

You cannot take an example of having a health problem and access to the necessary care as a reason to stay in a city. I have already provided a link on this thread that shows where the highest rated hospitals are to be found and they are not all in the 10 biggest cities. Nor can you choose a place to live based on a 'what if' scenario. You could do that but it certainly doesn't make sense to do so. You look at your situation as it exists and what your major criteria are today and base your decision on that. On another thread I brought up the point that 'retirement' seems to mean a 'final chapter' to many people. That's just ridiculous. It is about 'next', not 'final'. If you retire to a place initially, there is no law that says you cannot move from there a few years down the road when somewhere else suits your needs better, *at that time.*

A word on Victoria. There is a disproportionately(compared to the rest of Canada) large percentage of retirees from England there. You might want to ask yourself why that is. Answer, very few really hot days and rain is their natural habitat. In other words, they feel at 'home' their weatherwise. No thank you.

People can come up with all kinds of excuses for why they see things one way or another but few come up with any actually valid reasons. Excuses are not reasons, they are simply self-justifications.


----------



## 319905 (Mar 7, 2016)

^ ??? ... adios, and enjoy the day :encouragement:


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

I'm with rikk2 and ian. We enjoy the 4 seasons, x-country ski as long as we're able, winter season rabbits and birds. Hell, my wife and I compete for the chance to get out and shovel fresh snow. Canadian eh!
Also appreciate 4 minute ambulance response and 24hr microsurgery after recent events. 
We're fortunate to have been able to stay in the house we bought 38yrs ago. No desire to move or snowbird outside of a few off-season trips a year.

*Note*: These comments are an expression of our experience and opinion for the sake of contributing to CMF discussion. They should not be seen as excuses or self-justification and are not an argument for or against downsizing for purposes of monetizing home equity.
Individual experiences and preferences may vary with mileage.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Again, all true Plugging Along but the thread is really about people whose quality of live is suffering because they are property rich but cash poor in retirement and yet can't seem to see the solution right in front of them. There is no point being a 10 minute walk from the grandkids if you can't afford to buy them an ice cream.
> 
> You seem to just want to find reasons why moving isn't a good idea and ignore who the thread is aimed at and why. Staying in a location is fine as long as you can afford to stay there and not have your quality of life suffer. But many people retire and refuse to move, even though their income is no longer enough to maintain the quality of life they want to have. That makes no sense at all. It's better to drive an hour to see family than to sit in your house and eat Kraft dinner more often than not.


I thought the thread was about what you originally posted in post #1 and #5, which is primarily about unlocking equity in expensive large city homes to move to small towns because of a LCOL, there was no mention about people not being able to afford it. Those two posts primiarly talked about the ammenities in small town being similar.

It wasn’t until post #10 that you had an antedotal story about a family memeber that was house rich cash poor. I didn’t catch that you were trying to change the purpose of the thread to something so specific with this one story. So I respond to what think is the thread of relevance is. So back to your post above. 

The fact is that small towns do not have the SAME services are amenities that large cities do, period. They have similar basics ones, but if you need more then, for some that may be the reason to stay stay put. My parents would have downsized their home in city before moving to a small town. My parents would also choose to live frugally to be nearing to family than more expensively away. I agree with your point not that if someone can’t afford to live in their home, they should do something about it, but a small town is just one option. 

An hour drive in crappy winter roads is huge. My older sibling can get to my parents home in 10 minutes if there is any thing they need. My parents see on of there kids at least 3-4 times a week. It would be a lot less if we had to drive an hour. My dad would eat no name kraft dinner if he had to maintain this. Fortunately, he has more than what her needs to retirement. 




Longtimeago said:


> Makes perfect sense My Own Advisor if the math works for you. The objective is to free equity in order to have the quality of life you want. If you can do so without freeing any equity at all or by only freeing some of the equity and still staying in the city if that is what you prefer, then it can make sense to do that.
> 
> There are some advantages to a small town that you may still not get, that are not financially connected, but if there are some advantages you enjoy about being in the city, then it's all about which matters more to you. For example, after having lived in a small town for a few years now, when I go into my local bank branch, the tellers greet me by name. So does my local garage where I have my car serviced, the staff at the local library and several other stores I frequent. How often does that happen in the city? I certainly can't remember any bank teller greeting me by name.
> 
> ...


All of these things if you live in a place and establish your self long enough you can have in the city too. If we moved to a small town it would take us time to re-establish this.

We have plumbers, maintenance people, gardener, landscaper, carpenter, appliance repair person that we know a trust because everyone in our family has used them for uyears for our homes and rentals. My parents banks knows them by name, and had sent my mom flowers when she had her stroke, the librarian is my kids classmates mom, our mechanic is an extended family member. Our favourite restaurants, the whole staff knows us. My parents when they walk into their clubs everyone know s who they are. 

My point is that for some, the social and the support networks are so strong that there is no amount of money that could offset it. Sure if you don’t have a such network, move whenever, but if you have that strong of one, I would stay no matter what.

Everything is subjective, one person’s reasoning may not match yours, but it is no less right. There is no one size fits all.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I am happy to agree with all that you have said PluggingAlong. One size does not fit all. My point is only that the size someone *has* may not be the right size if they are house rich and cash poor. When I started the thread, I was obviously not clear enough that I was writing about when that was the case. That the reason for wanting a lower LCOL was because their LCOL where they were was too high and was impacting their quality of life.

I do think there are a lot of people who struggle to stay in their existing home, to the detriment of their quality of life and that often, they either cannot even see or stick their head in the sand about it. There was a thread on here recently about such a case where the couple had a home worth $2mil simply because they had lived there for decades, while they had an income barely above CPP & OAS. They also had debt! No matter how good their social and support networks and how much they wanted to stay there, their *reasoning* simply was not *reasonable*. It is possible for people to have different reasoning as you say but it is also possible for their reasoning be 'less right', contrary to what you wrote. You cannot assume their reasoning is 'no less right'.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with what you are saying. I think what you say about people struggling to stay in there existing home applies not only to retirement but in many cases. I know of many people that are younger and bought more home than they can afford. It’s no different than those that live beyond their means. They all have their reasons, but it may not seem very reasonable to those who are more fiscally responsible. There is not much use in trying to reason with them because they go by different reasons or emotions. I think it’s even harder as they age because their habits are so ingrained. 

So to answer your question of why do people stay House rich and cash poor when there are other options, essentially because they want to.


----------



## maylok89 (Jul 12, 2018)

Some of my friends, they did not downsize. Their reasons are they have to fix & prep the current house (old style house) before selling it, then search for the new place, get to know new area, new neighbours , and might have to fix the new place for their liking. With all the repairs, fixing, and agent expenses etc ... they said not much cash left worth it for all the time & effort for moving andt hey enjoy at home than travelling.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I agree with what you are saying. I think what you say about people struggling to stay in there existing home applies not only to retirement but in many cases. I know of many people that are younger and bought more home than they can afford. It’s no different than those that live beyond their means. They all have their reasons, but it may not seem very reasonable to those who are more fiscally responsible. There is not much use in trying to reason with them because they go by different reasons or emotions. I think it’s even harder as they age because their habits are so ingrained.
> 
> So to answer your question of why do people stay House rich and cash poor when there are other options, essentially because they want to.


As the saying goes, 'when emotion comes in the door, logic goes out the window.' LOL


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> As the saying goes, 'when emotion comes in the door, logic goes out the window.' LOL


I have also concluded that when one is past 80, they have earned the right to be less logical and deserve to live out their lives how they feel will make them happiest. As my dad says, he may not make the perfect decision now, but if houses the 'Will in matter in 20 years question' then all his decisions will probably not matter. I can't really argue there, he has the right perspective.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

pwm said:


> Interesting discussion. I moved away from the city to Headingley, which is a community 5 km from Winnipeg just before I retired 15 years ago.


That's a beautiful little place. Several of my highschool friends lived in Headingley, and I used to take long and relaxing bike rides westward out of the city, to Headingley and then to Beaudry Provincial Park. I loved biking alongside the farm land. During autumn and winter I also used to enjoy driving out there to escape the city's light pollution, so I could watch meteor showers and get a better view of the sky, and the occasional Northern Lights.

Heck, maybe I'll bike out to Headingley this weekend, though I'm a bit out of practice. Saturday weather is looking pretty good 

(Off topic but I've brought it up before but I'll say it again... Winnipeg & surrounding areas are a good place to grow up and become quite wealthy, compared to say Toronto/Vancouver or the super-expensive US west coast)


----------

