# Motorcycle backfires; thousands run for their lives



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

It has been my personal contention for some time now that Americans live in fear. The recent panic in New York City seems to prove my point. A motorcycle backfired in Times Square and literally thousands of people ran for their lives looking for somewhere they could get indoors for protection.

You hear a loud 'bang', what is your immediate reaction? Some might think, 'what was that bang'. In this case obviously some people had the immediate reaction, 'GUN, RUN.' I can't imagine living somewhere that that would be my immediate reaction.

Now some people might say, given the history of guns and violence in the USA, that reaction is understandable and predictable. Others might say, that the media goes out of its way to foster this climate of fear. But what seems to me to be the question is should Americans have such a fear, is it justified? IF it is justified, then what does it say about Canadians who continue to voluntarily visit the USA for vacations or winters in Florida etc.? 

Are Americans right to run when they hear a loud bang or are Canadians stupid to continue visiting the USA and ignoring what Americans seem to know is the norm in their country?


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Except for a few pockets in a few cities, the US is relatively safe. The vast majority of shootings happen in poor parts of Detroit, Baltimore, etc. Didn't Toronto have something like 13 shootings just last weekend alone?

I'd feel safer in the US than Cuba or Venezuela...plus I'm supporting a real democracy and not a communist regime with my tourist dollars.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

You're much more likely to die on the drive down to florida than getting shot.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

So what you are saying is millions of Americans are wrong to live in fear of their lives. Canadians have a better understanding of the situation in the USA. Yup, sounds right to me. LOL


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Having lived there for a few years, I think Americans are justified in being tense and generally fearful. Here are a few examples from my own life there and all this is before the recent shootings. In fact, this was in the pacific northwest which is quite progressive so this isn't even in "gun territory". It can get a lot worse than this in other parts of the US:

(1) I am nearly positive that a couple of my coworkers brought handguns to the office, based on them frequently mentioning that they'd never leave home without a gun. The state laws allow concealed carry. This made me extremely uncomfortable because if one of them "snapped", perhaps due to a divorce or something, I think our office could get shot up. This was a factor that led me to spend less time in the office.

(2) I once went to a coworker's home in a rural area, took a wrong turn and drove into another person's ranch. He came out with his rifle pointed glancingly at me and I stopped the car and put my hands up. When I later got to my friend's place, people heard the story and laughed, said this is common, you've got to get used to it.

(3) as I used the university library I became aware of the school mass shooting risk. Whenever I sat in the reading areas, I positioned myself strategically between two alternate emergency exit routes and had a mental plan in case of a shooter. This is the kind of mind set you get in America... and it's rational.

(4) with the number of unbalanced and erratic people I saw on on the streets every day (drug use, undiagnosed mental illness) I first considered getting a gun myself, then got pepper spray instead. Many other coworkers carry tasers, and as mentioned in (1) some carry guns. Every day I had the pepper spray on my backpack.

(5) our apartment building had occasional break-ins. I wasn't concerned about this minor property crime at first but an older man (ex cop) in my building pointed out the problem: in the US, thieves carry guns, and if they run into a person someone could get shot. So a casual theft can be far more dangerous in the US than in other developed countries.


And that's what I came to realize over time. The fact that _so many other people have guns_ is a problem. In Canada you might encounter an erratic street person, someone might steal a bicycle from your backyard, or a coworker might be having a mental crisis. *But they probably don't have guns on them*. In the US, with every interaction you have to remember that this person might be carrying a gun. Police are also extremely anxious because of the same reason. When they stop a person, they might have a gun (much higher % probability than Canada).

Remember... when you're in the US, be polite to everyone. _Never_ pick a fight, even in a grocery store aisle. Avoid eye contact with every stranger. Avoid crowds and large gatherings. When interacting with the police, keep your hands visible at all times. Always follow all instructions from police, never make erratic motions, always verbally inform police before reaching for anything (even in your pocket to get ID). Keep in mind that the police are extremely nervous. Because there are people with guns _everywhere_.

And it's not just police; US also loves private security who carry guns. If interacting with them as well (perhaps in a store) always keep a cool, level head. Never get into a heated argument, always keep your emotions in check. You can get shot by these guys too and they don't have nearly the professional training as police.

In my experience that absolutely raises the tension and overall stress level.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

^ J4B has covered off a lot of where the tension comes from. We have spent a lot of time in the US, my spouse has lived in some of the major cities including NYC, we have family and close friends that have moved there and we just got back from the US this week. 

There are some areas that are definitely more dangerous, but that's no different than in the larger cities in Canada. I have accidently found myself in some really bad areas in Florida, Alabama, Harlem, and LA, and a few other places. I am just as aware as when I have had to go to a really bad area in my city. 



> So what you are saying is millions of Americans are wrong to live in fear of their lives.


I am also aware that in general US culture, it is better to assume that someone is armed than not. Is it more scary? Well, for a peace loving Canadian that doesn't own a gun, yes, I am not used to it. If you ask a lot of Americans, they are not in fear of their lives, guns are just a part of it so they assume that everyone else is carrying. They don't even think of it very much. When there is a loud bang, yes, many assume that it's a gun and prepare for it. It's better to assume the worst and get to safety than sitting around thinking it's motorcycle and then getting shot.

At my nephews school, in a highly affluent area, the kids are general taught to assume the worst if its unknown what the loud bang is, and then figure it out. I think that's better than when they had the Raptors celebration in Toronto and there was gun fire and people assumed it was part of the festivities. When ever we are out in a large crowds, even in Canada, if I hear something that I don't know what it is, I make sure my kids and I can get to somewhere safe as we try to identify what the sound is. I definitely don't live in fear, but I take a more cautious approach in large crowds.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Remember... when you're in the US, be polite to everyone..... Avoid eye contact with every stranger.


Being polite is always a good idea but *avoid eye contact with strangers* ... Really?
I've vacationed a lot in Texas, many are armed down there, some in plain sight .... always felt safe travelling and interacting with the locals.
I guess some will feel fear in unwarranted situations, regardless of any real danger potential.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It isn't just the guns. Israel citizens have a lot of guns. Something else is going on in the US.

Mix a deeply divided society with a gun culture and it creates an uneasy and stressful situation.

A first amendment Constitutional right to spew what would be considered "hate speech" in Canada only adds to the tension.

I don't feel safe in the US, nor do I think I should. Not when people are being wounded and killed while praying in their church or shopping in Walmart.

These mass killings are caused by white nationalist sentiments, fueled by hate speech, and abetted by lax gun laws.

The US has to make and accept serious fundamental changes to a long outdated Constitution before much is going to change.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

cainvest said:


> Being polite is always a good idea but *avoid eye contact with strangers* ... Really?


Ok, I should have stated that better. Obviously many strangers are OK. But anyone acting strangely / mentally ill, or looks like they might be looking for trouble (must judge this through experience), you absolutely should avoid making eye contact.


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## Flugzeug (Aug 15, 2018)

I travel to the States 2-3 time per month, and I must say it’s a different feeling down there. A more aggressive feeling. I feel this less so in parts of the Western US, as James alluded to, but all large cities have their spots. 

I was in Miami last year, near the airport, and a guy with tinted windows nearly ran over myself and a coworker at a crosswalk. The guy was half on the curb driving. I silently vented in my head what I thought of this clown, meanwhile my coworker yelled some seriously insulting language toward the driver. He stopped the car, rolled the window down, poked his head out...I figured the bullets were coming. He gave a hand gesture and drove away. 

I then firmly reminded my coworker where we were, and that his actions could have gotten us killed. He agreed. 

Violence can happen anywhere, but the USA is more prone to it, and to a greater degree than many other places, in my opinion.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Flugzeug said:


> I was in Miami last year, near the airport, and a guy with tinted windows nearly ran over myself and a coworker at a crosswalk . . . my coworker yelled some seriously insulting language toward the driver. He stopped the car, rolled the window down, poked his head out . . . I then firmly reminded my coworker where we were, and that his actions could have gotten us killed. He agreed.


Yikes!!



> Violence can happen anywhere, but the USA is more prone to it, and to a greater degree than many other places, in my opinion.


After spending many years there, I've concluded that the USA has a culture of violence. It's subtle of course, and there are many wonderful Americans who are close friends and who I'd trust with my life, but I mean there there is an underlying thread of violence and aggression throughout their society.

It makes me uncomfortable and I wouldn't dream of making the US my home.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Being polite is always a good idea but *avoid eye contact with strangers* ... Really?
> I've vacationed a lot in Texas, many are armed down there, some in plain sight .... always felt safe travelling and interacting with the locals.
> I guess some will feel fear in unwarranted situations, regardless of any real danger potential.


If you avoid the small pockets of violence in a few major cities (Baltimore, Detroit, etc.) the US is pretty safe overall.

The media has done a good job convincing people that mass shooters are on every block, but of course they have an agenda.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

cainvest said:


> You're much more likely to die on the drive down to florida than getting shot.


I agree with that...we drove to Florida this past winter and was passed on the interstate (I was going 80 in an 75 mph zone) by a woman in a beaten up minivan with loose fender panels flapping in the breeze going well over 90 while holding her lap dog in one arm and with her cell phone to her ear in the other hand. She was driving with her elbow :excitement:


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Prairie Guy said:


> If you avoid the small pockets of violence in a few major cities (Baltimore, Detroit, etc.) the US is pretty safe overall.


It's far more widespread than that. Take a popular tourist destination such as Orlando FL for example. The homicide rate is 8.1 per 100,000 people.

Compare that to what's generally perceived to be a dangerous city here, Toronto. Homicide rate of 3.5 per 100,000 or 3.1 depending on whether or not you include the van attack.

And Las Vegas has 9.1 per 100,000 (triple Toronto's), even more dangerous than Orlando.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Compare that to what's generally perceived to be a dangerous city here, Toronto. Homicide rate of 3.5 per 100,000 or 3.1 depending on whether or not you include the van attack.
> .


Don't know about Toronto be dangerous but Winnipeg has been the murder capital 16 times and has been over 6 per 100,000 in the past.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Canada has several areas with a murder rate of 8 per 100,000 or higher.

Being realistic your chances of getting murdered are pretty slim in general... whether the rate is 2 or 8 per 100,000, that's very low odds either way. All it takes is a string of gang-related murders, a serial killer, or one mass shooting to skew the numbers.

If it was 50 per 100,000 like some places in South Africa I might start to be a little worried... lol. 

Generally speaking, you're far more likely to be assaulted or robbed in North America than murdered.

Btw, if crime is a big concern, you might want to stay away from western Canada... https://www.macleans.ca/canadas-most-dangerous-places/

The top 50 is dominated by areas west of Ontario, with BC racking up 23 of the top 50 worst places for crime.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The US is a backward country in many ways, such as a lack of universal healthcare, and a failure to restrict hate speech and guns.

While some geographical areas enjoy great prosperity, other geographical areas are steeped in deep poverty. Illicit drug use and criminal activity is a crisis in many areas.

Until the US addresses those societal problems, it remains a good country to avoid.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Yikes!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree james4beach. I don't think many people realize how culturally different the USA is to Canada. We tend to think we are much the same but in fact culturally we are very different. 

It isn't really the number of guns etc. that is the problem, it is the culture. If you take a country like Switzerland for example where all men between the ages of 18 and 34 have military roles as part of Switzerland's 'armed neutrality' and 'conscription'. Many of them as part of that, have not only a weapon in their home, ready for their instant deployment in the event of a war, but those weapons are fully automatic assault rifles! All (18-34 year olds) of them are trained in using these weapons. Even after they finish their service years, many then buy their weapon and keep it at home. Yet, their murder rate is near ZERO. The biggest area of 'gun violence' is in suicides.

So they have guns, even fully automatic guns and yet a murder rate of near zero, so it isn't the presence of guns that differs, what is it? Answer, it is the culture that differs. They do not see violence and aggression as the answer to their personal issues. Americans get mad and go out and shoot somebody.

https://www.businessinsider.com/switzerland-gun-laws-rates-of-gun-deaths-2018-2


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I agree Longtimeago, the issue is a cultural difference and leaning towards violence.

The pure crime stats and comparing cities to cities or neighbourhoods also misses another important point, which is that in the US, the only thing that keeps a lid on the murder stat is _extremely_ forceful policing. They have some of the most aggressive and military-like police in the first world. If it was left as a free-for-all, in the absence of police, the violent crime rate and murder rate would absolutely skyrocket.

This is not the case in other developed countries. Of course if police disappeared in Canada the crime rates would increase, but I would argue that Canadian society does not have a natural tendency towards that kind of violence. People *trust* their neighbours and fellow citizens. They may be selfish at times but they do care about community and the nation's good.

I think the US is different. With the extreme selfishness, extreme greed, fear and *distrust* of everyone, I think their society does not _naturally_ function peacefully. Pockets of America can be made livable by driving out the poor and using heavily armed police & private security... same way it's done in South Africa.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

nathan79 said:


> Canada has several areas with a murder rate of 8 per 100,000 or higher.
> 
> Being realistic your chances of getting murdered are pretty slim in general... whether the rate is 2 or 8 per 100,000, that's very low odds either way. All it takes is a string of gang-related murders, a serial killer, or one mass shooting to skew the numbers.
> 
> ...


So many Canadians seem to assume that Toronto is the worst for crime. Toronto is pretty safe. I chalk it up to the generalized antipathy toward the biggest city.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Toronto is a very safe city. I included it because the Albertans and rural dwellers on this board probably think it's dangerous.

PS, of all the countries I've spent any significant time in (6 or 7), the US is the only place someone has ever pulled out a gun on me.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Toronto is a very safe city. I included it because the Albertans and rural dwellers on this board probably think it's dangerous.
> 
> PS, of all the countries I've spent any significant time in (6 or 7), the US is the only place someone has ever pulled out a gun on me.


That’s a pretty bad assumption about albertans. We are a lot more worldly than those that think Toronto is the centre of the universe.

I have had a gun pulled on my outside of the US, in more than one country.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The US had almost 40,000 gun related deaths last year.

In 2017, Canada had 266.........the highest number in 25 years.

The US population is 10 times larger and their gun deaths are 150 times higher.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Yes, Canada remains a relatively safe country. Particularly if you are not mixed up in gangs & drugs, hanging out in bars/clubs in the wee hours, or a member of a higher risk group, the chances of becoming a homicide statistic are low.

Police-reported crime statistics in Canada, 2018 (July 22,2019)._In 2018, police reported 651 homicides, 15 fewer than the previous year. This represents a 4% decrease in the homicide rate from 1.82 homicides per 100,000 population in 2017 to 1.76 homicides per 100,000 population in 2018. The decrease in the national number of homicides was a result of notable decreases in homicide in Alberta (-38 homicides), British Columbia (-30), Quebec (-10) and Nova Scotia (-10), partly offset by a large increase in Ontario (+69).

The national rates for both firearm-related (-8%) and gang-related (-5%) homicides decreased in 2018. This marks the first decrease in firearm-related homicides since 2013 and the first decrease in gang-related homicides since 2014. 

Indigenous peoples, including First Nation, Métis and Inuit, accounted for 5% of Canada's population in 2018, but 22% of homicide victims. Of the 140 Indigenous victims of homicide reported by police, 96 were male (69%) and 44 were female (31%). While the number of male victims decreased for the first time since 2014, when data on Indigenous identity became available, there were six more female victims of homicide than in 2017, marking a second consecutive annual increase. Overall, the rate of homicide for Indigenous peoples in 2018 was five times higher than the rate for non-Indigenous people (7.31 per 100,000 population for Indigenous peoples, compared with 1.44 for non-Indigenous people). _

Most notable I thought was that _"The rate of police-reported fraud (including identity theft and identity fraud)__ continued to increase for the seventh year in a row, with a 12% increase between 2017 and 2018, and marked a 46% increase over the rate reported a decade previously._

Some of the increase relates to reporting and definitions, but some is the global nature of this particular crime. You get robbed, assaulted or murdered in the presence of the criminal, but fraud occurs at a distance, usually by organized crime scum located halfway around the world, taking advantage of technology and vulnerable people. Romance and senior fraud is among the most despicable.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

It seems I was wrong and that gun crime in Toronto is a BIG issue. So big that Trudeau wants to make tighter gun control a top election issue.
I thought his government just made changes to gun ownership that were supposed to fix everything - but now he is admitting they did bugger all?
What a blatant example of election pandering.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> It has been my personal contention for some time now that Americans live in fear. The recent panic in New York City seems to prove my point. A motorcycle backfired in Times Square and literally thousands of people ran for their lives looking for somewhere they could get indoors for protection....


Panic? Or a sensible self-defence reaction given the happenings in the USA? But I guess that is your question.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Far right extremists and white nationalists are preparing to descend on Portland again. This time however, the police actually did something -- arresting Joey Gibson for causing an earlier riot.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/16/portland-proud-boys-rightwing-march-liberal-city

While living there, I started getting tired of the constant assaults by the right wing extremists. They come to the city to beat up people and pick fights, and inflict terror on the city... but apparently there is a long history of this happening. From the above article



> But the Oregon hinterland is deeply conservative, and Portland itself has long been a target for far-right organising. In the 1980s and 1990s, neo-Nazi skinheads converged in the streets, and a gang killed an Ethiopian immigrant, Mulugeta Seraw, in 1988.


And now for some insight into the mindset of a right wing extremist:



> Last July, Gibson told conspiracy broadcaster Alex Jones: “Portland is one of the worst cities in this country. It’s full of so much darkness. That’s why I’m so motivated to go there.”


What kind of sickness is this, to obsess oneself with a city just because it's liberal and progressive... and then repeatedly organize trips there, purely to intimidate and beat up the population? It's beyond sick.

In Canada, I wouldn't think twice with a motorcycle backfiring. In the US, absolutely different. There are some bad dudes walking around, many of them willing to cause violence over their ideologies.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I get the feeling that the over-reaction to mass shootings is doing more harm than the shootings themselves. How many people are killed in every day interactions with twitchy police? How many people live in fear, fleeing from fireworks or motorcycle backfires?


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

And now they close a subway station in lower Manhattan b/c some homeless guy left rice cookers on the platform. Sad really, but given that they were mistaken for pressure cookers, and that pressure cookers have been used as bombs in the past - it seems prudent to treat the incident as possibly dangerous until proven otherwise.

The police are just doing what seems appropriate to protect the public in that situation, but it's the media that whipped up the non-story into a possible terrorist attack.

Did the guy do it to cause panic, or was he just discarding something he found in the trash and couldn't use or sell?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> I get the feeling that the over-reaction to mass shootings is doing more harm than the shootings themselves. How many people are killed in every day interactions with twitchy police? How many people live in fear, fleeing from fireworks or motorcycle backfires?


Consider what your reactions would be if you were the policeman. In a country where there are more guns than people, every single interaction a police officer has, has the potential to be with someone who has a gun. 

So a 'twitchy police' is not hard to understand. Shoot first and ask questions later. I agree the over-reaction thanks to the media probably is doing more harm than the shootings themselves. It is the sensationalizing of every single shooting by the media that leads to the fleeing of a motorcycle backfire I'm sure.

Currently, Toronto is experiencing what seems to be an unprecedented number of shootings. It seems like every day for the last month at least, there has been a shooting incident in Toronto reported on the news. I grew up in Toronto and have never felt any kind of fear in regards to gun crime. It existed obviously but was confined to gangs like the Hells Angels, etc. But given the current media reports of gun incidents, I have to admit to beginning to think it just isn't a good idea to be in Toronto if you don't have to. The incidents are not confined to just specific areas and not just to gang members shooting each other. One incident was at a Toronto Airport area hotel and another was in the high price neighbourhood of the Bridle Path. It seems like nowhere is safe and that starts people living in fear everywhere just like they do in the USA.

I have a suspicion that if a motorcycle backfires in Toronto this weekend, some people may well react in panic, seek shelter first and ask questions later. That is a very sad thing to think of the city I grew up in.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ The point is that you can't be guided by media impressions. Facts are facts, and Toronto has lower murder rates than previously, and has low crime rates when compared to most cities. You can hide under your bed, but as Neil de Grasse Tyson pointed out recently, you are vastly more likely to die in your car than from gun violence.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

And on the subject of twitchy police in the US, I think it is driven by a few different factors:
-poor training.
-military-style training that portrays the police as an occupying force in a hostile land and that the only duty of police is to ensure their own safety.
-a lack of accountability for their actions. Training that supports shoot first, de-escalate later, summed up by the phrase 'Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6'
-inappropriately equipped police. Why do so many forces have APCs?
-low pay. You get dregs, and can't be as selective
-insane gun culture in the US. Canada has plenty of guns too (34 per 100 people vs 120 per 100 people in the US). The problem seems more the culture than the availability of guns. People politicize the right to own/carry guns and people tend to live in a state of fear. You don't see people strutting around with guns too much in Canada, because here they are mostly used as tools (hunting, etc.) and not fashion accessories or political statements.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

They have so many levels of police in the US it is hard to keep them all straight.

The number of officers outside the one Philly house was probably more than all the officers in our city.

It is a war zone in many parts of the US and when a gunman can hold off the police because of his firepower, they have a big problem to deal with.

They said the gunman was shooting at officers right through the walls. Yikes........


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

The police in Philly were taunted by the "tolerant" left who actively support violence against police. They also held a rally to demand that the man who attempted to kill several cops be set free.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> ^ The point is that you can't be guided by media impressions. Facts are facts, and Toronto has lower murder rates than previously, and has low crime rates when compared to most cities. You can hide under your bed, but as Neil de Grasse Tyson pointed out recently, you are vastly more likely to die in your car than from gun violence.


NO, the point is that Toronto has had HIGHER gun incidents in the last couple of months than ever in the history of the city. So the question is where is it heading, up or down? Whether you are more likely to die in your car is not relevant. The only thing that is relevant is are you more likely to die these days from gun violence in Toronto than you were to die from gun violence in Toronto 20-30 years ago? The answer SHOULD be that you are less likely today than in the past, any other answer should be UNACCEPTABLE.

Whenever someone tries to argue as you are that something else is more likely, all they are doing is using an apples vs. oranges comparison. The interesting thing about such comparisons is that you can always provide the comparison in the way you want to suggest matters.

So if someone says, 'apples are too sweet', it's easy to say, 'eat oranges they are not as sweet.' If someone says, 'oranges are not sweet enough', it's easy to say, 'eat apples they are sweeter than oranges.'

But if someone says, 'apples are too sweet, how can I have apples that are less sweet', the answer is NOT about oranges. The answer has to be about how to grow apples that are less sweet.

If we have too much gun crime and the question is how do we decrease gun crime, no answer about driving your car is applicable. The answer has to be about ways to reduce gun crime. To me that means coming down harder on those who commit the gun crime of any kind. If someone is smuggling guns into Canada, give them 20 years in jail with no parole. If someone uses a gun in committing a crime, give them 20 years with no chance of parole. If someone wounds someone with a gun give them 30 years and if someone kills someone with a gun give them life in prison with no chance of parole. 

That could lead someone to ask the simple question, so why don't we do that already? The answer is because it costs money and involves politics. To put enough police on the streets to catch the criminals, to have judges and court houses to try them when caught, to build and staff a prison, to feed the convicted while in prison, etc. all cost a lot of money. So what do you think the chances are of a politician standing up in Parliament and saying, 'I am proposing a bill that will make these changes and that will cost the taxpayers an additional $1000 a year on the average income tax bill. I hope you will all vote to approve it.'

What we get instead is a lot of lip service to 'we have to crack down on all this' but no will to actually make it happen by anyone including not just politicians to be fair, but also by the taxpaying public themselves.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> Canada has plenty of guns too (34 per 100 people vs 120 per 100 people in the US). The problem seems more the culture than the availability of guns. People politicize the right to own/carry guns and people tend to live in a state of fear. You don't see people strutting around with guns too much in Canada, because here they are mostly used as tools (hunting, etc.) and not fashion accessories or political statements.


Those are legally held guns you are referring to andrewf but at present it is estimated that around 50% of the guns and in particular hand guns, in Canada now are illegal guns smuggled in primarily from the USA. They aren't included in the 34 statistic you refer to so you would need to up the 34 to 68 to reflect current numbers of ALL guns now in Canada. It isn't a simple issue at all, here is an article that lays out some other factors. https://www.cbc.ca/news/national-gun-trafficking-straw-buying-smuggling-firearms-1.5126228

In the article you will find 2 people who bought guns legally and then illegally sold them to a third party. Both received 8 year sentences. Now here's the thing, one sold 23 guns and the other 47. Some of those guns were consequently used in crimes, you can Google both names to read more if you want. My question is, if someone sold a gun that was used in a violent crime, why is that person not charged as an accessory to the crime? If you sell a gun that is used to commit a murder, why are you not charged as an accessory to murder? Why are you only charged with the illegal sale of a firearm which carries a far lesser penalty? Answer, the cost to build such a case and successfully prosecute it.

When someone buys 23 or 47 guns andrewf, do you think that they actually don't know what is likely to happen with those guns? If you know you are providing a gun to someone that is likely to end up killing someone are you not as guilty of that murder when it occurs as the person who pulled the trigger? But it is far harder to try and convict someone of that in a court. So my thinking is, OK, don't try to convict them of that, just change the sentence for the illegal sale of a gun to the same sentence as would apply to someone convicted of being an accessory to murder. Job done.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

james4beach said:


> After spending many years there, I've concluded that the USA has a culture of violence. It's subtle of course, and there are many wonderful Americans who are close friends and who I'd trust with my life, but I mean there there is an underlying thread of violence and aggression throughout their society.
> 
> It makes me uncomfortable and I wouldn't dream of making the US my home.


This is a very sad incident. Sounds like a totally senseless murder... Master Cpl. Martin Brayman (Canadian military) met 4 strangers while out one night, and invited them to his home. While talking with the 4 men who are in their car, one passenger jumps out unexpectedly and then beats Brayman to death.

Canadian military member sucker punched and beaten to death in Florida


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Those are legally held guns you are referring to andrewf but at present it is estimated that around 50% of the guns and in particular hand guns, in Canada now are illegal guns smuggled in primarily from the USA. They aren't included in the 34 statistic you refer to so you would need to up the 34 to 68 to reflect current numbers of ALL guns now in Canada. It isn't a simple issue at all, here is an article that lays out some other factors. https://www.cbc.ca/news/national-gun-trafficking-straw-buying-smuggling-firearms-1.5126228
> 
> In the article you will find 2 people who bought guns legally and then illegally sold them to a third party. Both received 8 year sentences. Now here's the thing, one sold 23 guns and the other 47. Some of those guns were consequently used in crimes, you can Google both names to read more if you want. My question is, if someone sold a gun that was used in a violent crime, why is that person not charged as an accessory to the crime? If you sell a gun that is used to commit a murder, why are you not charged as an accessory to murder? Why are you only charged with the illegal sale of a firearm which carries a far lesser penalty? Answer, the cost to build such a case and successfully prosecute it.
> 
> When someone buys 23 or 47 guns andrewf, do you think that they actually don't know what is likely to happen with those guns? If you know you are providing a gun to someone that is likely to end up killing someone are you not as guilty of that murder when it occurs as the person who pulled the trigger? But it is far harder to try and convict someone of that in a court. So my thinking is, OK, don't try to convict them of that, just change the sentence for the illegal sale of a gun to the same sentence as would apply to someone convicted of being an accessory to murder. Job done.


47 guns, 8 years, that's what 2 months per gun?

The problem is our sentences for crimes are too low.
Concurrent sentencing should not be permitted.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> 47 guns, 8 years, that's what 2 months per gun?
> 
> The problem is our sentences for crimes are too low.
> Concurrent sentencing should not be permitted.


Yes, that is my contention, the penalties are too low. Increase the penalty for selling a gun to the penalty for being an accessory to murder which is in fact what the person selling an illegal gun is doing. 

The question to ask I think is why is that not being done and the answer as far as I can see is $$$$. It costs money to keep someone in prison and you also have to pay to build enough prison space to keep them in. Where will that money come from? Answer, the taxpayer. That leads to how will the politicians get re-elected if they tell the tax payers that they want to increase taxes to pay for prisons?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Toronto is a very safe city. I included it because the Albertans and rural dwellers on this board probably think it's dangerous ...


You sure it wasn't because of all the coverage of the spate of recent shootings?

I haven't seen all that much that indicates this geographic distinction.




james4beach said:


> ... PS, of all the countries I've spent any significant time in (6 or 7), the US is the only place someone has ever pulled out a gun on me.


Gee ... three times in El Salvador, twice in Rome, once while entering a US navy base and zero everywhere else.

What conclusion should I draw from these personal numbers?
Or maybe ... just maybe there are better numbers to use?


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> I agree Longtimeago, the issue is a cultural difference and leaning towards violence.
> 
> The pure crime stats and comparing cities to cities or neighbourhoods also misses another important point, which is that in the US, the only thing that keeps a lid on the murder stat is _extremely_ forceful policing. They have some of the most aggressive and military-like police in the first world. If it was left as a free-for-all, in the absence of police, the violent crime rate and murder rate would absolutely skyrocket ...


If it's a cultural difference, is it not also in the militarized police as well?

Would you agree it's a bad idea to give military hardware to police forces without any training?

That's what the 1033 program has been doing since 1997, with almost no reporting requirements nor any stipulations on how the equipment is used. One of the police forces that has been given military hardware has for training a single article. It warned that "preparations for attacks on American schools that will bring rivers of blood and staggering body counts are well underway in Islamic training camps," and went on to say that "because of our laws we can't depend on the military to help us ... By law, you the police officer are our Delta Force." Tactics, when to use or not use the equipment etc. were not covered.


Does a town of seven thousand really need a tank?

Does a town of thirty thousand need really need over thirty seven thousand military items? Or like some other police forces in the program, are the items being stockpiled for later sale, which is prohibited by the program but has been found to happen.

A town of less than thirty thousand had an eager public safety coordinator that would login to the the government's first-come, first-serve online store at three am. His dedication has gained the town tanks, weapons and heavy equipment. All told, the tanks have been reported to have been used five or six times, where it's main use for locating a man who tried to commit suicide.

Beyond the lack of training, as a former police chief puts it, "if they have it, they will find a way to use it. And if they use it they will misuse it altogether too many times".


SWAT was created for hostage and active shooter situations yet today, with crime going down the number of SWAT raids is going up. Most SWAT raids are to serve search warrants, including "no knock" warrants where the police enter first then announce themselves. Some police forces mandate SWAT for all search warrants regardless of the potential for danger and the seriousness of what the warrant is for.


Some questionable raids:

1) An optometrist bets with friends and an undercover cop on college football games. Most of the bets are for fifty dollars but the undercover cop makes one for two thousand dollars, making the optometrist a "bookie". SWAT is involved in the arrest where despite the optometrist being unarmed and making no threatening moves the optometrist is shot to death.

2) Florida used SWAT tactics/weaponry to search for guns in barber shops, holding customers and the barbers alike at gun point. The few charges registered were for barbering without a license where no guns were found and no gun charges were laid. Eventually, a judge ordered that this practice be stopped.

3) Georgia sent SWAT in for an unpaid gas bill where the occupant's dog was shot.

4) A first time informant looking to avoid jail made conflicting statements to police like "it's a small marijuana grow op" and "there's at least a half dozen six foot stalks ready for harvest". Or "he's a laid back guy" and "he's got so many guns he is going to war with someone". No follow up was made to sort of what was the truth where the contradictory statements were dropped from the no knock warrant application. SWAT that trained four hours, once a week went in with uniforms that identified them as police *only on the back*. After flash bang grenades were thrown, the home owner shot back for a short time, killing a deputy until he figured out it was the police. He then immediately surrendered. Instead of the claimed grow op, just over four ounces of marijuana were found.

5) Tragedy was likely avoided as the disabled army vet at the last second heard that it was the police so he holstered his hand gun. What was the SWAT team looking for that needed them to break in first then announce who they were? About a thousand dollars worth of electronics ... which were not found.

6) Georgia SWAT was used for a search warrant for alleged copyright violations in a music studio.

There's others like the no-knock SWAT police raids that got the address right when they broke into the third house, the raid that used a tank to break into the house of a suspected of running a cock fighting ring (plus armoured vehicles with dozens of fully decked out officers), the one where the SWAT officer tripped shooting the bound resident in the chest, the raid searching for an already arrested suspect and the shooting of the US army vet in what an experienced reviewer described as amateur, undisciplined, unrehearsed and ineffective.

It is reported that senior law enforcement officers have warned against deploying SWAT teams too aggressively and frequently for a long time. SWAT is reported to be sent out for their original purpose in seven percent of their raids.


Cheers


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

More gang-related murder in TO on the weekend. One 17yr old innocent bystander killed in the vicinity of a 'rap' video being shot.

I haven't heard any details yet on the gang that was shooting the video, or the gang shooting the guns. Time will tell if its more of this bunch of garbage.

Watching/listening to any kind rap is nauseating, but watching garbage from this sort requires a shower after. What lame losers.

I'm sure the police would love to just let them kill each other off. Unfortunately they have to deal with them (and a busted justice system) because of collateral damage like occurred this weekend.


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