# Is North America Less Violent?



## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Listening to the radio today an expert was commenting on why violence and crime rates have dropped so much since 1992.

Many thought abortion was the cause because poor moms get abortions and then those kids don't grow to do crimes. But he said that idea is now dead because most poor moms kept their children and it was actually middle class moms having the abortions. So we can strike that one out.

He says the reality is that our laws are better we are not allowed to hit our kids as before, women rights has helped and bullying is now being looked at. Before when a bully went after you you had to deal with it yourself and stand up for yourself. 

He also says the new feeling for others have extended to being less cruel to animals and the circle is ever widening as we start going farther from using violence as a solution. Also he says there are really less wars worldwide as we talk things out instead of just going straight to war.

Is he on base or is it because we just have a better economy today, better technology and just better off then we used to be.

I suppose the downside is we are not as accountable as we used to be or we are let the government and the law solve everything. It has also led to huge debt to be racked up as we make sure everyone is taken care of. So I suppose once the debt cripples us everything could come apart and we could revert back to our violent ways.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

what a good idea to ask this question.

i have a friend who's a social worker, her organization has the contract to send a couple of social workers regularly to address groups of brand-new male immigrants.

the girls don't mess around. They display condoms. Police phone numbers. They explain to their audience how this is canada, they're not allowed to beat their wives or children, if they beat their wives or children the police will be instantly be involved.

invariably this provokes uproar. It's unbelievable how many of these males become enraged. I mean livid furious. They don't get it at all. Shouting breaks out. They cannot comprehend why, when their family members disobey them, they, the patriarchs, are not allowed to punish them in the traditional style.

"what is the matter with canada," roared one male. "In my home country i could slap my wife every single day."

"vous pouvez toujours prendre la porte, monsieur," said the social worker demurely. "You are welcome to go back home."

there is one country whose males are said to be, by far, the worst. The very worst. The shouting, the objections, even the mild threats against the social workers are legendary. It's not a country you'll ever be able to guess. No, i'm not telling you.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

dogcom said:


> Listening to the radio today an expert was commenting on why violence and crime rates have dropped so much since 1992.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Sounds to me like he was simply speculating on reasons that appeal to him, not providing any evidence.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Modern day conveniences, a great economy, going forward what is there to fight over besides petty stuff?

1st world LOL:


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I believe if you look up the statistics and also look around you you would see that it is true.

Humble pie just gave you a bite of what it was like here except not as bad about 40 or more years ago. When I took my kids to elementary school I was pleasantly surprised at how tolerant they were compared to when I was in elementary school. When I was in school and someone had a disability or something everyone made fun of them and it was very cruel.

Bullying was also well excepted and you had to fend for yourself. Most often the way to settle things was to ask for a fight after school.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Not really @ all! an inner city is a inner city-low cost housing,unemployment,minorities,poverty all equal dangerous or better said people with little hope and are desperate.

I live in winnipeg and in our inner city teenagers get stabbed daily and weekly over smokes...ask royal mail he will tell ya!I dont think north america is less dangerous.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Anecdotal: I went through the primary/second school system in the inner city and suburbs. Generally speaking, schools concentrated with families with higher incomes and income equality offer better education and are safer.

There are still problems of bullying in schools: http://www.torontosun.com/2011/09/22/boy-bullied-to-death-dad-says

But honestly, where do you think bullying comes from? Hate is learned and permeates through all cultures and societies. People are so quick to forget what they say, what they do, and their own influence on others around them.

There will always be people that act tough, put others down to inflate their ego. Those personalities flaws exist everywhere, even here, but at the end of the day people with relatively comfortable lives have no excuse to scrap anybody for their lunch money, take their stuff, physically hurt them etc. The worst that happens in 'elite' schools is a drug bust, often even unreported, but there are no drive-bys or stabbings for non-payment.

On the end of the spectrum, people are animals. When you perceive you have no hope, no future, nothing to lose, you take bigger and bigger risks and some decisions can lead to violent outcomes.

Remember, smart people are born in the slums too.. a Steve Jobs in the slums would probably be a drug lord.

I believe the biggest factor of all is financial situation... as long as that improves, violence will subside


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

ddkay-some people come into this world with the whole deck staked against them and part of me can empathize.I have a employee who ive "got" a soft spot for he has problems with alchol and @ time has trouble with mundane tasks(ie:i will order his lunch for him because he has trouble with communicating) Hes got a heart on him thou that is unmatched!The guy would give you his shirt off his back.

He was born in pukatwagon,father left him,mother was a alcholic,abused,shipped to winnipeg to live with his auntie,didnt go to school past grade 6,lived his teenage life in a half-way house and now lives with a women and her five kids in subsidized housing(he is 22)He has told me a million time he drinks to dull his pain that is his reality.....im going off course abit here but this is a story of many kids in poverty,i dont know how god or karma operates but imagine growing up powerless like that?How do you rise above it?These are the young men who end up stabing people and going to jail but are they the real victim?I dont know.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

So why are we building more prisons?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

dogcom said:


> Humble pie just gave you a bite of what it was like here except not as bad about 40 or more years ago. When I took my kids to elementary school I was pleasantly surprised at how tolerant they were compared to when I was in elementary school. When I was in school and someone had a disability or something everyone made fun of them and it was very cruel.
> 
> Bullying was also well excepted and you had to fend for yourself. Most often the way to settle things was to ask for a fight after school.


Yes, I remember the public school days from the early 60s. They still had
the strap applied in public schools as a form of corporal punishment at
the teacher's or principal's discretion. 

Although the cane was abolished by then..the Ontario public school system abided back then by the old creed "Spare the rod and spoil the child"..
We have evolved a long way since then as modern society. 

Now the teacher is not allowed to touch the child for fear of being fired or even sued by the parents. Consequently there is more juvenile crime because the
juvenile laws are very lenient in most cases..except in situation such as bodily harm or the kid in school bringing in a gun or knife to school
and the school is locked down until the cops and tactical squad arrive.

Road rage (more common now) is another situation where evolution in
society and more of us on the roads each day lead to bizarre cases
of bad and sometimes violent behaviour. 

So in general terms (not the family abuse cases), we are less "violent"
as a society, but still not immune from cases where somebody gets
angry and goes off the deep end causing death or injury to someone.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Just part of Herper's contingency plan, just like the Freedom-55 jets or whatever


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> So why are we building more prisons?


Crime will always be with any society, especially as the population increases.
While there will always be the "professional criminals", economic factors also contribute to crime. Influx into concentrate urban areas of "certain ethic populations" can also contribute to a higher crimer rate.
Street gangs, drug wars, that sort of thing.

Toronto, which used to have a low crime rate 40 or so years ago, now has a higher crime rate these days. If you follow the CITY tv nightly reports,
there is a shooting or death involved almost on a daily basis these days. 

So we need more superjails to house the perpretrators of violent crimes,
because we can't execute them anymore..like in some US states.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

ddkay said:


> Just part of Herper's contingency plan, just like the Freedom-55 jets or whatever


Freedom 55 (from the standpoint of early retirement) is a thing of the past.
Now it's more like FREEDOM 70...if we happen to live long enough. 

Super Stealth jets are needed to defend our sovereingty. 
The US is now going ahead to put up a 5000 km? fence across our border with them and patrolling it with AWACs/satellites and drones to keep out our "terrorists". (Paranoid or what?)

Perhaps after spending 10 billion or more on these next gen joint strike fighters, we could possibly use them to defend our northern territories against future Russian invasions..
and perhaps to keep those polar bears under control.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

There's some interesting discussion in this thread, but nothing that really explains why the serious crime rate is apparently dropping significantly - do we really believe those statistics? Our Vancouver murder rate has been down for the past two years, but that's because so many of the gang members killed each other off the year before that! Seriously, though, I'm having a hard time believing that the rates are down as much as the statistics quoted in the media claim to show.


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

I'd be interested to see the link between demographics and crime. Proportional more old (>35), proportionally less crime.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

dogcom said:


> Many thought abortion was the cause because poor moms get abortions and then those kids don't grow to do crimes. But he said that idea is now dead because most poor moms kept their children and it was actually middle class moms having the abortions. So we can strike that one out.


Not necessarily. Mothers who get abortions obviously didn't want the kid whether they are poor or middle class. A poor mother can actually raise a child just as well if not better. Kids need a mother who cares more than toys and money. I can think of many poor mothers who raise their children perfectly fine if not better. 



ddkay said:


> On the end of the spectrum, people are animals. When you perceive you have no hope, no future, nothing to lose, you take bigger and bigger risks and some decisions can lead to violent outcomes.
> 
> Remember, smart people are born in the slums too.. a Steve Jobs in the slums would probably be a drug lord.
> 
> I believe the biggest factor of all is financial situation... as long as that improves, violence will subside


It's not so much the financial situation, but the environment. Cultural conditioning shapes behaviour more than financial status. Lots of poor kids turn out great and lots of kids with rich absentee parents turn out horrible. Lots of rich Arabs beat their wives just because of culture, and we used to beat our kids not so long ago regardless of finances.



ddkay said:


> Just part of Herper's contingency plan, just like the Freedom-55 jets or whatever


Crime and war are great for the economy and the GDP, as are sick and dying people. The last thing the health care industries or lawyers and judges want is a healthy and non-violent society. Move all these costs down and you have a tanking economy, and crashing stock markets. Crime, healthcare and military probably make up a significant chunk of the GDP. Stocks are probably overpriced assuming that governments will continue to spend spend spend, just like consumers need to spend spend spend


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

re dropping violent crime stats in north america ... some say this is because the swollen critical offender age group, which was the baby boomer generation between 15 & 29 years, has now aged into less violent oldsters.

perhaps now they content themselves with road rage & posting on finance message boards ...


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> road rage


This seems to be increasing here. Many could learn a lesson in patience from Istanbulites.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

sags said:


> So why are we building more prisons?


It is electorally expedient. There is a segment of the population who finds the idea of locking up more people for longer very satisfying, and these people are electorally useful. Reality be damned.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

carverman said:


> Toronto, which used to have a low crime rate 40 or so years ago, now has a higher crime rate these days. If you follow the CITY tv nightly reports,
> there is a shooting or death involved almost on a daily basis these days.


Interestingly, this is just wrong. Crime and violent crime in lower in Toronto than it has been for decades. Also, Toronto is one of the safest cities in Canada and North America in terms of murder and gun violence per million. As an example, the city of Chicago has more murders than all of Canada (a rate >10x by population).


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

apropos de rien is it not true that homicides as a ratio of population are dropping in chicago & nyc

tuberculosis is rising among the homeless in US cities though.


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## Beleriand (Jan 31, 2011)

This picture from political scene should be used for all the world. Personally, political untruthfulness is first step to collaps. Unfortunately, consensus is only dream.



ddkay said:


> Modern day conveniences, a great economy, going forward what is there to fight over besides petty stuff?
> 
> 1st world LOL:


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## MoMoney (Apr 1, 2011)

I feel safer walking in most slums in Asia than i do in inner city Vancouver. 

I have no doubt that per capita, crime of all sorts is lower in Asia.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I know Japan is safer. Is that true of, say, Thailand and Indonesia?


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Maybe people are aware of social media and cell phone cameras now a days? 

Also the transit here now has cameras on the busses and new subways.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Violent crime rates are apparently down in Canada. Notwithstanding Edmonton and Winnipeg, murder rates are at the mid 1960's level. We have an aging population.

I have read that white collar crime and crimes by women are up significantly.

But hey, when you are an Earl Jones and get 11 years for stealing 50 plus million, living in a townhouse in a minimum security prision and out on bail in two-three years why would anyone stick up a 7/11 for $200. and get the same sentence or more. Go big or go home.

Harper's crime bill, IMHO, is mostly show with very little go. It flies in the face of the statistics, the current trends, and common sense. But, it did help secure votes. Caught again...bought with our own money. Unfortunately the provinces are the ones who will pay for a good portion of the cost.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Winnipeg is awful for violent crimes and murder,i hate to say it but we are very much the "chicago" of canada.

Our north end is littered in poverty and gangs,drive by shooting ect,I think i read today we just broke a record number for murders.

Its all 14-18 yr old male gang members...Killing each other....Our inner city is unfixable,its sad but it will never change(aboriginal gangs,african gangs,biker gangs and puppet clubs)Just the way it is.


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