# Lower Back Pain



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Does anyone here suffer from lower back pain?

My back is ruined. Has been for years, but it has gotten progressively worse as time goes on. I realize we are investors, not doctors, but man...

My lower back "shifts". It's like the vertebrae or bones are shifting. I can crack them as well, but they literally "shift". When I lie down, they will shift, when I am sleeping and roll over on to my side, they will shift. 

If I sit straight in a chair for about 20 minutes, and then slouch down in the chair so my tailbone rests just on the edge of the chair, my entire midsection will separate and it makes a really, really loud THUD sound and shakes my entire body, but it feels fantastic when that happens.

I think I may have a bunch of slipped/herniated disks. I have to constantly move. I cant be in one position for too long (20 minutes - 30 minutes) or it starts to hurt and I get this weird sensation that I can't describe. When I am at work, I have to sit, then stand, then sit, stand, etc..

I have even gotten a new mattress and tried to exercise my back on a daily basis. Neither helped.

The only thing that has helped so far is lying on a flat surface or on an arc. I need a bed with a lump in the middle, so that my torso is high in the air and my legs and head are downward. Sort of like a rainbow shaped mattress. (Business idea?!)

I'm too young for these issues! I thought only Belguy would suffer from something like this?


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

That sounds messed up KaeJS, you have asked a doctor about this right? A friend of mine basically broke their back from a sports injury years ago and haven't recovered yet, but physiotherapy generally helps. Back problems get worse with age, I've also seen people getting addicted to painkillers etc then claiming disability collecting welfare cheques, getting kicked out of their parents house and move into community housing. Health issues are a bumpy road, get that checked out ASAP.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I had spoken to my doctor about it.

Doctor said more than likely I would need surgery, and that she does not recommend it as back surgery has a high failure rate and can make things worse. She said because I am young I would be better off just seeing if it fixes itself and then if it does not, I can always get the surgery later.

She gave me the "go ahead" for x-rays and the works, but I never went any further to get the x-rays done. I just left it alone.

I'm thinking it might be time to go get it done, though.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

kaeJS here's what i'd do if a kid of mine had this kind of bad back. I'd get the doctor to send him for an MRI or a CAT scan. 

for severe & persistent back pain, especially if it's related to disc damage or malfunction, x-rays are not much use. They principally reveal information about the bones. It's my understanding that x-rays can suggest disc damage might be present but can go no further. For example x-rays will not be able to reveal a herniated disc.

so for living tissue damage it's an MRI or a CAT scan.

never mind that the wait times are going to be so long. It's not unusual to wait 6 months to a year for a MRI. CAT scans are usually less.

i believe your doctor is right about the surgery. It's still relatively primitive (not the fault of the neurosurgeons, it's how the spine & the spinal cord are constructed). Stem cell research will eventually produce the possibility of new discs. Twenty years from now patients may be able to benefit; but not yet.

didn't your doctor recommend physiotherapy ? she should have. It's the first responder to back pain. But not just any old physio will do. One wants to find physiotherapists who are orthopaedic specialists, bref these are the sports physios who look after the athletes. You'd have to sleuth around, find out where the elite athletes & dancers go (hint: in toronto, which physiotherapy clinic looks after the national ballet.)

don't go to a chiropractor or an osteopath or even a physiotherapist who initially prescribes vigorous intervention. If you have an actively herniating disc these approaches will make it worse. It would be helpful to an experienced sports physio to know the diagnostic results of an MRI or CAT scan, so very helpful that you might even want to think about paying for a CAT scan yourself. It should be a few hundred $$, far less than the cost of an MRI.

once you've identified the physiotherapy clinic, my own experience has been that, when i told the office manager what the diagnosis was, she gave me an appointment with the best & most experienced physio on the team. This has happened twice, across 15 years. They were both physios for national sports teams, ski & track & field to be precise. Were they ever the best !! 

some patients have reported enormous relief from back pain with acupuncture, so that's another avenue to explore.

*if* you have a herniated disc - at your age it would likely be from a work or sports injury - the good news is that it will eventually retract & the pain will lessen. This might take 6 months or longer. It won't ever heal perfectly, so it will always be vulnerable. The physio will help you here with all kinds of modifications to sitting, walking, running, etc so as to prevent another acute episode.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

The physiotherapy clinic that looks after the NB is the David L. Macintosh Sports Medicine Clinic at the University of Toronto, the oldest dedicated sports medicine clinic in the world. 

Wait time for an MRI is less than 24h if you are willing to cross the border (Buffalo MRI) and the cost is an eligible medical expense for tax purposes. My knee MRI was $465 USD two years ago (and they give you a t-shirt, a latte, and the whole clinic is set up like a spa, no joke).

Wait times for an MRI in Toronto for an acute injury (not a longstanding chronic condition) should be in the range of 3-6 weeks.


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## atrp2biz (Sep 22, 2010)

I would avoid a CT--MRI is fine. There is a huge amount of radiation associated with a CT and at the younger you are, the more impact it could have down the road. They are "overly" ordered by referring physicians.

Sorry Geniusboy.


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

MoneyGal said:


> Wait time for an MRI is less than 24h if you are willing to cross the border (Buffalo MRI) and the cost is an eligible medical expense for tax purposes. My knee MRI was $465 USD two years ago (and they give you a t-shirt, a latte, and the whole clinic is set up like a spa, no joke).
> 
> Wait times for an MRI in Toronto for an acute injury (not a longstanding chronic condition) should be in the range of 3-6 weeks.


I don't know the system in Toronto, but I've had several MRIs done in Ottawa and you can get them within the week if you let the hospital/clinic/university/whatever know that you are available 24/7 for cancellations. 

Will probably be at 4 in the morning, but sure beats waiting 6 months.

KaeJS, that's brutal at your age. I've done my knees a few times so I have an idea of how it feels, but my surgeries have been successful and will only haunt me 20 years from now.


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## leoc2 (Dec 28, 2010)

I have had a bad back for 30 years. I use an inversion table (3 minutes a day). I do 50 stomach crunches (partial sit up) everyday. I get a massage and chiropractic adjustment once a month. I use an egg timer (software program) and get up every 15 minutes when working on my computer. I use a weight lifting belt (Walmart $15 several years ago) when I lift items. This gives me 3-4 months of pain free back before some daft event re-injures my back.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

KaeJS said:


> I had spoken to my doctor about it.
> ...
> 
> She gave me the "go ahead" for x-rays and the works, but I never went any further to get the x-rays done. I just left it alone.
> ...


You think? It's bothering you so much, but you never had the diagnostic tests done? If the x-rays show nothing definitive she might then send you for an MRI. But she is not going to waste precious MRI time for a problem that might be diagnosed with x-rays. And most doctors won't refer you to a physiotherapist until they've diagnosed the problem, or gven up on a diagnosis. A physio might do more harm if there is something broken in there.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

You need to strengthen all the muscles of your core an start and exercise plan that will lean you up and increase your endurance and put you into shape. This takes time doing it slowly and ramping up as you go and you need to do this for the rest of your life. See the physiotherapist so you are not making it worse but insist on finding out what will work for you in the long term. Sometimes certain exercises and stretching will not help you so you need to find out what will work for you.

Back pain should be a wake up call for anyone that gets it and should make you strive to be better then you ever were before unless the damage is to severe.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Kae
Definitely investigate this , I do not want to scare you or draw assumptions but my friend's son was 29 and he had 13 months of going to doctors and being on pain medication only to discover he had cancer in his spine.Unfortunately he did not make it so please do what you have to do to get this checked out and never assume you are sure 100% the issue.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I will go back to the doctor and get it checked out.

I will also ask about the physio ordeal. I actually did physio for my left knee a few years back because my muscle was so torn, it was actually deteriorating due to damage and breakdown. Since then, my knee has been 100% fine.

Will definitely ask for an MRI. However, being a cheap-***, I would like to keep this as "frugal" as possible, so I will not want to pay more $$ to get it done sooner. I get it when I get it.



humble_pie said:


> "*if* you have a herniated disc - at your age it would likely be from a work or sports injury - *the good news is that it will eventually retract & the pain will lessen*.


^ Is that true?


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

As mentioned above, if you are willing to go in anytime for your MRI, you can probably get in within a week or two, and yes it will probably be at 2am or something.

I am sure your MD will recommend xrays, and perhaps a urinalysis test to be done, then depending upon those results perhaps an MRI.

Alot of general back pain they will classify into a Mechanical Back Pain category. Which basically means you have some sort of back pain, disc deteriorization, that isn't bad enough for surgery.

If your test results reveal a herniated disc I am sure they will recommend 4 weeks of rest immediately.

Take the tests, find out what is going on. My MD told me he gets about 3 pts a year that have a growth of some sort on their spinal area, definitely worth checking out.

Also see a Physiotherapist, along w back exercises, they can probably help you with some posture corrections to help on a day to day basis.

Visiting a Chiropractor will do you no harm either, once they do an assessment, they will know how far they can actually move you to manipulate the vertebrae.

It is natural to have some disc degeneration once you turn 30 or so, or if you are into contact sports or have an accident.

I have 1 disc that is naturally breaking down, it does give pain from time to time, but is managable.

I think we are around the same age, it is unfortunate, but his does happen. I have foudn this site helpful: http://www.spine-health.com/

Getting old sucks.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

KaeJS, I have heard that back surgery is supposed to have a high failure rate, but I don't necessarily believe it. Several people I was close to, including two husbands, had surgery for herniated discs (one of them twice on different parts of the back), and all were successful. Their backs weren't 100% perfect, but only bothered them for a few days if they did any heavy lifting or shovelled show - that kind of thing. Of course you don't want to go through surgery if there's any other option, but my advice would be to insist on being referred to an orthopedic specialist as soon as possible and see what he/she thinks. Skip all the other steps - go straight to the specialist.

Humble Pie gave you excellent advice when she said not to go to a chiropractor. One of my husbands did that and, in the middle of a treatment got off the table and left because the pain was so excruciating he thought it must be doing him harm. When he saw an orthopedic specialist later on, he was told that the ruptured disc had been rubbing against the sciatic nerve, gradually shredding the nerve, and that the stretching the chiropractor was doing could have snapped it completely in two, which would have left muscles in his upper leg permanently paralyzed.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I went to the doctors and got the forms for an X ray and an MRI.

This was a while ago. I still have the forms, but have not done anything about it yet.

I will not see a chiro. Ever.

My back cracks, shifts, and grinds. It is hard to explain. Its like if one were to grind their teeth, but in their lower back.

Like i said before, if I sit for a while (hunched, or straight) but not slouching for maybe 20 minutes or longer, not only do i start to get really uncomfortable and feel like i must move, but if i go from hunched or straight, and slouch in my chair, there is this huge POP, and it feels like my tailbone separates from my back, and it feels FANTASTIC, but it is obviously not good.

When I am laying down on my left side (and only the left side), I can put my right hand on the right side of my tailbone and push, while leaning back into my hand. this will also create a nice POP and it feels wonderful. However, this CANNOT (i've tried 100 times) be done the opposite way, laying on my right side using my left hand. 

Also, if i am just laying down, i can "move" my back, but it feels like the bottom part doesnt move right away. it just grinds. I can essentially move my upper back a little, without moving my lower segment at all, and then it catches and moves as a whole.

The only way I can describe my back is like a badly worn out clutch.

And the pain is not really pain. it is more of a discomfort. Pain is when you stub your toe or break a bone. Discomfort is just... discomfort.

I will eventually bring myself to get the xray and MRI done. just dont know when. 

Cal, thanks for the link.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> Does anyone here suffer from lower back pain?


I do as well now in the last few months. 



> My back is ruined. Has been for years, but it has gotten progressively worse as time goes on. I realize we are investors, not doctors, but man...


Didn't your grade school teacher tell you ...long long ago, to stop slouching in
your chair and sit up straight? 




> If I sit straight in a chair for about 20 minutes, and then *slouch down in the chair so my tailbone rests just on the edge of the chair, my entire midsection will separate and it makes a really, really loud THUD sound and shakes my entire body*, but it feels fantastic when that happens.


You are probably just putting your vertebrae under a bit of traction..stretch it out a bit so any nerves coming out from between them don't have as much pressure on them. 



> I have even gotten a new mattress and tried to exercise my back on a daily basis. Neither helped.
> 
> The only thing that has helped so far is lying on a flat surface or on an arc. I need a bed with a lump in the middle, so that my torso is high in the air and my legs and head are downward. Sort of like a rainbow shaped mattress.


I've had the same problem in the morning with regular mattresses over the
last few months...stiff necks too, and noticible back pain in the lower back.
I take Robax now everyday to alleviate my back pain as much a possible,
at least the back muscles. It doesn't do anything for the disks though. 

So today I decided enough was enough, as the lower back pain affects my
ability to walks as well, I went to Leon's Furniture and bought their
adjustable motorized bed and a memory foam ergonomic pillow.

Good price on the adjustable bed/foam mattress..$999. I searched
around online first, the cheapest I could find in Mattress Mart
was $1950. 
Forget about those Craftmatic ripoff deals!
I'm too frugal to throw away money like that, my foam mattress single bed has been with me for over 15 years, but my back isn't going to get any better from now on.

BTW..I adjusted the Leon's adjustable bed to my most comfortable position, spent 15 minutes in it to see how my back would react to it. It felt very good on my lower back for even the brief time I was in it..the pain was gone.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

hmmmn. Does it pop & feel wonderful during sex ....

personally i feel that if you were to lie back upon your rainbow-arched bed ... you know ... the one you had custom-built in the shape of a tiny curved japanese garden bridge ... and then ... if ... if the geisha ... were to ...


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> hmmmn. Does it pop & feel wonderful during sex ....
> 
> personally i feel that if you were to lie back upon your rainbow-arched bed ... you know ... the one you had custom-built in the shape of a tiny curved japanese garden bridge ... and then ... if ... if the geisha ... were to ...


Picture a place in space and time...where Kaeji-san is lying on his back
on a custom built Japanese built curved bridge...drinking warm saki and
watching the clouds drift by in a Japanese garden...

Geisha bending over and whispering to him: Kaeji-san, do you wish for anything?

Kae: huh? What?...(*rubbing his eyes after seeing a beautiful Geisha
bending over his arched frame*)..is this for real or am I dreaming?

Geisha: no Kaeji-san, you are not dreaming, I was instructed to come to you
to serve you... and make your every pleasure come true.

Kae: ( his mind racing), thinking about EGR valves on his car, those annoying
random misfires, and other not to interesting stuff that is not too important at the moment.."

"yes..there is one special thing that I know Geishas are famous for!"

Geisha: what is that Kaeji-san.

Kae: Could you walk all over my back please with your bare feet..I've
got this bitchin' back pain and can't seem to get rid of it....(crack! crick!)

Geisha: Then your wish is my command, master Kaeji-san.

Kae: Ahhhhhhhh! This feels so good! 
.............

end of very short..(would have been a romance) novel.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

carverman said:


> Geisha: Then your wish is my command, master Kaeji-san.
> 
> Kae: Ahhhhhhhh! This feels so good!
> .............
> ...


Further:

Kaeji-san : and after you are done with that, calculate the avg. cost on my BMO shares, update the yield ratio and figure out what the latest p/e is.
and oh, before you leave, don't forget to update _My 2011 Stock Trades Spreadsheet_

Geisha : 

That was hilarious, carver


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

.

_oktherightideabuti'dlikeitkindarougher ..._


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

.

_fourfeetarebetterthantwo ..._


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

.

_oops ..._


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> hmmmn. Does it pop & feel wonderful during sex ....


Not my back.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Further:
> 
> Kaeji-san : and after you are done with that,* calculate the avg. cost on my BMO shares, update the yield ratio and figure out what the latest p/e is.*
> and oh, before you leave, don't forget to update _My 2011 Stock Trades Spreadsheet_
> ...


Crump, this is a must for the Geisha. 

carver, was funny.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I can't believe your back is that bad at such a young age. That's going to be a hell of a burden to carry for the rest of your life. Sports injury or something?


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

^ I actually think its due to working physical labour jobs, 100 hours a week.

I was non-stop on my feet and lifting/carrying heavy things and/or bending over working on a table/counter.

Pretty sure that's what did me in.

Could also be skateboarding countless hours years ago in my highschool life. That probably fcked it up, too.


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