# Cryptocurrencies / Blockchain



## Capper (Feb 24, 2021)

Are any of you taking advantage of the huge setbacks many crypto and blockchain stocks are taking lately by buying them up at bargain prices? Or are you siding on the cautious side because you don't know what the future holds? Some examples of these stocks are as follows:

Canadian Stocks

DMGI
HIVE
CWRK
DGHI
GLXY
HUT

US Stocks

CAN
EBON
FTFT
SOS
RIOT
MARA

I have owned some of them and still own a handful. I am hearing some of the financial experts say to buy blockchain while it's cheap. Eventually it will pay off. What's your feeling on them?


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## robertsclak (Feb 22, 2021)

Capper said:


> Are any of you taking advantage of the huge setbacks many crypto and blockchain stocks are taking lately by buying them up at bargain prices? Or are you siding on the cautious side because you don't know what the future holds? Some examples of these stocks are as follows:
> 
> Canadian Stocks
> 
> ...


Go to casino,at least they are regulated


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## Capper (Feb 24, 2021)

robertsclak, a lot of people have made a lot of $$$ over the past year or more on those very stocks. Gambling or not, lots of volatility and lots of opportunity...


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Those are pretty speculative. There may be more potential upside, but the downside is even greater. HIVE, for example, is down 45%. HUT is down nearly 40%. At the same time, Bitcoin is only 19% off its all-time high.

I place these stocks in the same category as I place altcoins: they derive their value from Bitcoin, so when Bitcoin loses value, these lose even more value.

I'd rather buy an ETF like HBLK that contains a mix of blockchain and tech stocks, including several established companies that aren't completely reliant on crypto.

For greater exposure to crypto, I prefer to hold actual Bitcoin.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

Capper said:


> robertsclak, a lot of people have made a lot of $$$ over the past year or more on those very stocks. Gambling or not, lots of volatility and lots of opportunity...


Have people that have made money in crpyto, taken profits out of crypto or just reinvested? I have seen few people do this. If crypto crashes, there will be little actual money leftover. An implosion where all the damage is contained within.


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## Capper (Feb 24, 2021)

I would venture to guess that it's been a combination of all the above you've mentioned. Some people always want to go back and milk the same cow again and again, or at least a cow in the same pasture, while others don't hesitate to take their cash and move it into other places.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Capper said:


> Are any of you taking advantage of the huge setbacks many crypto and blockchain stocks are taking lately by buying them up at bargain prices?


How do you know it's a "bargain" price? What underlying reason is there to believe that something like Bitcoin is sure to rise in the future?

For all you know, today is the highest price you will ever see on any of these.


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## Capper (Feb 24, 2021)

Well, could say the same thing with any stock on any market. When a stock drops a considerable amount over one day or several days, there is always the distinct possibility of a correction or rebound. Of course history is never an indicator of a future stock price but it is certainly one of many ways to speculate. If you look at a number of factors, including the price range and the amount of time the stock has spent in various ranges, that can be an indicator of things to come. But for people who only run the other way when these exciting volatile stocks jump up and down, we know where they stand! It's definitely nice to get the viewpoints of everyone, those who are fearful and those who look for the challenges and opportunities.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Capper said:


> Well, could say the same thing with any stock on any market.


That's really not true. Stocks are ownerships in companies, which have earnings. (Some stocks do not have earnings and these are speculative). The major companies in the indexes certainly do have positive earnings. So for example when you own XIC you have a stake in a portfolio of companies which have net income.

We know over the long term, corporate earnings grow at a certain pace. So it's more or less guaranteed that X years in the future, the stock market has higher net earnings (cashflow) than today.

Those are a fundamental basis for investing in the stock market. It's why we all expect stocks to ... eventually ... rebound, no matter how badly they fall.

*There is nothing like this in crypto koins*. There is absolutely no fundamental basis to expect them to go higher in the long term. There isn't even a demonstrated history of, say, a half century that can give us some historical confidence in their pattern.

You're buying crypto koins on pure faith, if you expect them to rebound. I hope you're not gambling too much money on these.


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## Capper (Feb 24, 2021)

You can have all the corporate earnings in the world, but there are many factors that can suddenly cause the price of a stock to drop considerably. There are problems with products and services, there are issues and scandals with executives, there are competitors that rise above, and the list goes on. And when the economy as a whole gets hit, whether it's a catastrophe or whatever the cause, earnings don't mean very much! It seems that every so often there is a major descent in the market which proves it would have been better for people to sell off and buy back in time and time again. That's not to say you can speculate this easily. My point is that buying index funds might be the simplest way to grow your portfolio but far from the best or only way.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

It is all a matter of risk and reward. If you expect higher reward, you should anticipate higher risk.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

james4beach said:


> You're buying crypto koins on pure faith, if you expect them to rebound. I hope you're not gambling too much money on these.


There are a few faith believers, but a lot of people are banking on gambling and speculation primarily. The idea they can just sell it to the next sucker for more. The last one out the door with the imaginary internet coins, don't forget to turn off the mining computer.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

doctrine said:


> There are a few faith believers, but a lot of people are banking on gambling and speculation primarily. The idea they can just sell it to the next sucker for more. The last one out the door with the imaginary internet coins, don't forget to turn off the mining computer.


Many people think that this is what "investing" means and this isn't new. Back in the 90s, people thought that investing meant gambling on hot tech stocks like IO-Mega and flipping them for quick profits.

It's sad, because most people who approach investing with this mindset will ultimately do worse than investing in GICs. These days, we are watching people in their 20s and 30s gambling with all their hard-earned savings.

On top of that, I'm reasonably sure that most of the crypto koinz are an outright scam. Just classic pump & dump, but on a global scale, aided by spammers and con artists who expertly work social media. Also encouraged by global criminals who use these vehicles for money laundering and drug & weapons sales, and want the added public enthusiasm to add liquidity and also mask their own activities.


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## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

I have HIVE which I bought on the huge pullback in March. The miners are good because they mine all crypto coins. Other good stocks are Coinbase (which Cathy Wood has in her ARK ETFs now) and Voyager Digital that are really just exchanges.

The market cap is about $1.4T now for bitcoin but the addressable market is $13T for gold and another $96T for currencies in circulation which some don't seem to understand . If it replaces just 10% of currency ,that is $9.6T potential.

Gold is a similar asset in nature and risk but w far less upside potential. If you consider bitcoin a gamble, then you consider gold a gamble as well. But bitcoin has some utility as a means of payment, another reason for their soaring value and a far larger addressable market.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Capper said:


> Are any of you taking advantage of the huge setbacks many crypto and blockchain stocks are taking lately by buying them up at bargain prices? Or are you siding on the cautious side because you don't know what the future holds?


Add BITF and VYGR to your Canadian list, COIN and SI for US

I'm very bullish on blockchain/crypto/DeFi short/long term with the awareness that human nature will likely cause another bubble/crash in between. I really like these 20-30% setbacks that shake out weak hands and liquidate the highly leveraged gamblers

james4beach posted the top here when he bought in 2017 so that could be my sign for 2021


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Many people think that this is what "investing" means and this isn't new. Back in the 90s, people thought that investing meant gambling on hot tech stocks like IO-Mega and flipping them for quick profits.
> 
> It's sad, because most people who approach investing with this mindset will ultimately do worse than investing in GICs. These days, we are watching people in their 20s and 30s gambling with all their hard-earned savings.
> 
> On top of that, I'm reasonably sure that most of the crypto koinz are an outright scam. Just classic pump & dump, but on a global scale, aided by spammers and con artists who expertly work social media. Also encouraged by global criminals who use these vehicles for money laundering and drug & weapons sales, and want the added public enthusiasm to add liquidity and also mask their own activities.


What underlying demand there is, is mostly related to illegal funding and currency transfers. As those avenues eventually get clamped down upon when inevitably countries start to not just discover billions of illegal funding moving around, it may take some type of action, like a massively funded terrorist attack or other such event, for the chains to really come down on all cryptocurrency. Maybe it won't be eliminated, but it will be suppressed enough that there won't be trillions of this around. Maybe some billions worth. 0.1% of what is out there now.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

doctrine said:


> As those avenues eventually get clamped down upon when inevitably countries start to not just discover billions of illegal funding moving around, it may take some type of action, like a massively funded terrorist attack or other such event, for the chains to really come down on all cryptocurrency.


Terrorists have been funded in USD for decades so why haven't they clamped down on that? This is just an outdated mainstream media narrative that boomers and dinosaurs repeat without any knowledge on the topic. If anything it's easier to track and surveil digital transactions.

Visa, Mastercard, Paypal, Square, all the major US banks have already announced they are adopting digital currencies in some form. All the major US crypto exchanges are launching debit/credit cards that can use digital USD that earns much better yield than traditional banks.

Several US states and federal agencies are adapting to this new reality. US, Canada and many other western countries are developing central bank digital currency. Of course Canada is several years behind the US so I can understand why Canadians have less awareness especially the older Canadians.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

Capper said:


> Are any of you taking advantage of the huge setbacks many crypto and blockchain stocks are taking lately by buying them up at bargain prices? Or are you siding on the cautious side because you don't know what the future holds? Some examples of these stocks are as follows:
> 
> Canadian Stocks
> 
> ...


Your miners HIVE AND HUT have leveraged upside to crypto prices. Even more so than the cryptos themselves but hard to tell earnings unless you know generally how their contracts are

CurrencyWorks(CWRK) just got listed today. Did you buy into the RTO or Pre-IPO rounds for it? Never heard of it till now. 

New Guidance from CSA to the exchanges is a bit of a headache. Lots of companies wanting to list on TSXV and CSE using a go-public shell now are no longer able to, NEO Exchange I'm told is easier but not sure why that is.


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## Capper (Feb 24, 2021)

The purpose of this thread was to get people talking with their opinions on these crypto and blockchain stocks or funds and it seemed to work. I appreciate the feedback. It's been fun reading and gathering people's thoughts on this matter. There is no question that these stocks have shown a lot of volatility over the past few months. When there's volatility there activity, and when there's activity there's money being made and money being lost! Personally, I think some people made some great points about this sector that makes one think whether it's a good idea to invest in crypto/blockchain, and if so, to what extent for for what type of duration. It's interesting reading about the 'scams' and criminal activity related to crypto. I also thought Jimmy's comparison to gold was a good one. And gold has been a safe haven for many many years for a lot of people.


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## Juggernaut92 (Aug 9, 2020)

I am getting into a bit of crytocurrency through qbtc and qeth. However I would only put a max of 5% in crypto as it's pretty volatile. I wouldn't mind adding a bit of voyager digital or coinbase as I think they will definitely play a big role in the future.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

m3s said:


> Terrorists have been funded in USD for decades so why haven't they clamped down on that?


They have. There are extremely strict controls on cash transfers in & out of countries.

Crypto currencies circumvent those checks and evade law enforcement.



m3s said:


> US, Canada and many other western countries are developing central bank digital currency


The money system is _already_ digital. Both central bank money transfers and inter-bank transfers are fully digital.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> They have. There are extremely strict controls on cash transfers in & out of countries.
> 
> Crypto currencies circumvent those checks and evade law enforcement.


yes and no, most crypto currencies track and publicly disclose every single transaction.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

james4beach said:


> They have. There are extremely strict controls on cash transfers in & out of countries.
> 
> Crypto currencies circumvent those checks and evade law enforcement.


Cash needs strict controls because it's untraceable otherwise. There's already blockchain solutions coming and KYC requirements for exchanges

In Canada we have Form T1135 and strict penalties for not reporting foreign financial activity, crypto or not

If you think cash doesn't cross borders untraced you are very naive.



james4beach said:


> The money system is _already_ digital. Both central bank money transfers and inter-bank transfers are fully digital.


Calculators are digital but they can't do much compared to a smartphone.. I use both systems and they are not comparable at all.

You're much smarter than this. Those who understand tech and finance can really benefit early


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

m3s said:


> Cash needs strict controls because it's untraceable otherwise. There's already blockchain solutions coming and KYC requirements for exchanges
> 
> In Canada we have Form T1135 and strict penalties for not reporting foreign financial activity, crypto or not
> 
> ...


Those working in Finance and Capital markets understand.

I can easily use Chain Analysis platform to track incoming Bitcoin/crypto deposits and flag suspicious activity. The ledger aspect is very useful. 

Excited to see if the CSE exchange can transform to a blockchain based exchange for transactions, record keeping settlement etc. . .Currency works is working on that solution with them.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

I do not care about what I trade or their fundamentals. Price pattern is what matters.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Fain said:


> Excited to see if the CSE exchange can transform to a blockchain based exchange for transactions, record keeping settlement etc. . .Currency works is working on that solution with them.


It only makes sense. No more waiting 2 days for stocks to settle etc

Decentralized exchanges and automated market makers could also disrupt centralized exchanges but obviously there's a lot of regulation and technology to sort out

Of course all the intermediaries who will be replaced want to paint blockchain as terrorism but the dinosaurs will eventually fade away


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> They have. There are extremely strict controls on cash transfers in & out of countries.
> 
> Crypto currencies circumvent those checks and evade law enforcement.


Cryptocurrencies do not circumvent any location transfer restrictions because it is simultaneously everywhere.
The cryptocurrency was never in a particular location, therefore it was never transferred out or in of any other location.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The governments can :

A) Spend the time and resources to chase down illegal crypto criminal transfers....... or

B) Eliminate the problem by banning any financial institution from dealing with them.

I think they will choose option B when they get around to it.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> I think they will choose option B when they get around to it.


With all the major US banks getting involved I'm afraid you're out of the loop at this point

Gerry Gensler was just just sworn in as chairman of the SEC and Hester Pierce is also very crypto friendly. Several US states are already encouraging and attracting blockchain innovation.

Canada approved the ETFs before the US but unfortunately the real opportunity to beat the previous US gov out of the gate has passed.

Why would Visa and Mastercard invest in blockchain integration if it was still unclear if the US gov would ban it "when they get around to it"


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Crypto are part of a bigger bubble in all perceived "rare" assets.

Check out the latest sales of cardboard sports cards.........and not even vintage cards 100 years old. These are cards printed in the last few years.

It isn't old time collectors buying up this crap. It is newly minted billionaires cashing in their bitcoins and doge coins.

And quite possibly, the illegal laundering of drug money, which is likely a large part of crypto as well.

I have seen this play out before years ago during the domain name speculation boom. People spending ridiculous amounts of money to buy a stupid name.

When the word came out the FBI and US authorities were investigating..........it suddenly all stopped.






Lelands







auction.lelands.com


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The SEC regulates securities. The Treasury and the Fed will make the recommendations to Congress for legislation.

Visa and Mastercard are considering developing their own form of blockchain.

That means nothing to the value of crypto since they would use USD as the blockchain currency.

Some countries have already banned crypto. Many are considering their own centralized digital money based on their own currency.

The venture capitalists of Coinbase have cashed out their shares. Elon Musk sold a lot of bitcoin. Cathie Wood has bailed on some crypto stocks.

The corporates smell profits and are raking in the cash for as long as they can. The retail investor is typically the bag holder.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Elon Musk claims he hasn't sold any of his own BTC. TSLA sold some to rebalance and prove liquidity to shareholders. Cathie Wood has to rebalance which means selling holdings that are doing well (ie selling some TSLA for COIN)

Visa and Mastercard are integrating a USD stablecoin that uses the ethereum network. ETH is required to use the ethereum network. That means something to the value of ETH imo but what do I know

I'm not going to spend my time trying to explain everything to the dinosaurs. I've given you enough to do your own research. I've made more than you can probably imagine in the last year and taken enough off the table to retire very young


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The governments can :
> 
> A) Spend the time and resources to chase down illegal crypto criminal transfers....... or
> 
> ...


I think they'll likely try B.
But I don't think it will last, also it will put those governments behind technologically.


It really boils down to a few key things,
If cryptocurrencies is a dumb idea that doesn't make sense, it will collapse on it's own.

If they are a great idea that is much better, banning them is like putting a tax on your entire countries economy, then throwing the money away.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

m3s said:


> Elon Musk claims he hasn't sold any of his own BTC. TSLA sold some to rebalance and prove liquidity to shareholders. Cathie Wood has to rebalance which means selling holdings that are doing well (ie selling some TSLA for COIN)
> 
> Visa and Mastercard are integrating a USD stablecoin that uses the ethereum network. ETH is required to use the ethereum network. That means something to the value of ETH imo but what do I know
> 
> I'm not going to spend my time trying to explain everything to the dinosaurs. I've given you enough to do your own research. I've made more than you can probably imagine in the last year and taken enough off the table to retire very young


your not going to get a big deep dive on this board for blockchain or crypto.. . Same as you, I had really good crypto investments, mostly on the equity side pre-ipo but some pure crypto side as well.

new guidance from CSA to Canadian exchanges is causing some to abandon their listing plans which sucks.

any good defi projects you are in?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Fain said:


> any good defi projects you are in?


Mostly waiting for the smart contracts and associated defi projects to launch on cardano now. I rather just stake when the fees are so high. I have a pile of BNB I bought to pay their fees but I haven't bothered with BSC (probably should!) I just think BSC will get replaced by ETH2 and cardano

I toyed with uniswap, 1inch, yearn, compound as a pandemic hobby until the gas fees got out of hand. This later airdropped me their governance tokens which was a crazy surprise. I have my own ETH and cardano nodes but you can earn nearly the same yields at voyager now (hopefully it comes to Canada soon!)

I imagine yields will come down as more see how lucrative it is compared to legacy finance then it'll be time for me to rotate some out. Look at real estate, bonds and savings accounts today.. The masses all crowd the same markets. There's a lot of idle capital sloshing around


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

m3s said:


> Mostly waiting for the smart contracts and associated defi projects to launch on cardano now. I rather just stake when the fees are so high. I have a pile of BNB I bought to pay their fees but I haven't bothered with BSC (probably should!) I just think BSC will get replaced by ETH2 and cardano
> 
> I toyed with uniswap, 1inch, yearn, compound as a pandemic hobby until the gas fees got out of hand. This later airdropped me their governance tokens which was a crazy surprise. I have my own ETH and cardano nodes but you can earn nearly the same yields at voyager now (hopefully it comes to Canada soon!)
> 
> I imagine yields will come down as more see how lucrative it is compared to legacy finance then it'll be time for me to rotate some out. Look at real estate, bonds and savings accounts today.. The masses all crowd the same markets. There's a lot of idle capital sloshing around


Buy and Hold(buy and stake) is good strategy right now. Ethereum is crazy for gas fees. 

Have you heard much on Defi projects on Solana? I'm trying to convince a project to move to Cardano but the lead developer seems dead-set on Solana. 

I've had some yields come down lately. Blockfi just lowered my interest. i expect more decreases to come as more enter in but its good to collect year while you can.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I don't have any problem with the underlying technology (it's an interesting concept), but I do suspect that much of this is a scam.

I think that scam artists / groups of large holders are pushing these around and tricking people into buying them up, in pump & dump fashion. All the warning signs are out there, including promises of high returns, and weird forecasts (with absolutely no fundamental basis) that prices are "certain to be higher" next year.

The aggressive marketing is also specifically targeting younger and less experienced people. Young people live their lives on social media, so they are easy targets for con artists' marketing, and more gullible due to their age. The con artists use all kinds of slick techno babble, much of it is nonsensical really.

So I continue to avoid it, because it all smells like a scam to me.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I heard Solana has a really good team (like a lot of them have backgrounds from major tech companies) If that dev prefers the Solana language (rust?) it would be hard to switch I imagine. I use the rust clients for ethereum because I found them more stable

Cardano uses haskell like the military and financial industry but I doubt as many devs know it.. Cardano seems to have the best foundation but yea the biggest question is whether the devs will build on it. Not much good without the devs


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

m3s said:


> I heard Solana has a really good team (like a lot of them have backgrounds from major tech companies) If that dev prefers the Solana language (rust?) it would be hard to switch I imagine. I use the rust clients for ethereum because I found them more stable
> 
> Cardano uses haskell like the military and financial industry but I doubt as many devs know it.. Cardano seems to have the best foundation but yea the biggest question is whether the devs will build on it. Not much good without the devs


The dev is spirited in the passion for Solana but could convince the board members to go with cardano. As long as it has a good ecosystem and momentum, I’m not opposed to cardano or Solana. I hear way more good things about cardano though. So believe it will make the marketing of it way easier.


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## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I don't have any problem with the underlying technology (it's an interesting concept), but I do suspect that much of this is a scam.
> 
> I think that scam artists / groups of large holders are pushing these around and tricking people into buying them up, in pump & dump fashion. All the warning signs are out there, including promises of high returns, and weird forecasts (with absolutely no fundamental basis) that prices are "certain to be higher" next year.
> 
> ...


The latest Bill Maher video on this topic pretty much sums up opinion on this topic. Check it out.


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