# Would you consider appointing a trust company to be executor to your will?



## piano mom (Jan 18, 2012)

Good morning from BC! I'm ashamed to say that my husband and I don't have a will:upset: I think the main reason for this is because we can't decide who to name as executor and also guardian to our children. But it is now high time to have it finalized and signed. 

I can assign my brother as our executor but is it more beneficial to assign a trust company like TD Waterhouse instead? I am hoping that TD Waterhouse would assist us in streamlining the probate process as well as administering our trust accounts for our minor children. 

Who do you have as the executor to your wills?


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## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

Our lawyer suggested our two adult children be appointed as co-executors. Seemed like a good idea, so we went with that.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

piano mom said:


> Good morning from BC! I'm ashamed to say that my husband and I don't have a will:upset: I think the main reason for this is because we can't decide who to name as executor and also guardian to our children. But it is now high time to have it finalized and signed.
> 
> I can assign my brother as our executor but is it more beneficial to assign a trust company like TD Waterhouse instead? I am hoping that TD Waterhouse would assist us in streamlining the probate process as well as administering our trust accounts for our minor children.
> 
> Who do you have as the executor to your wills?


it isn't actually td waterhouse. The acting division in estate management would likely come from td canada trust.

may i make a suggestion. First, sit down, preferably with a nice cup of tea. Then seek to know their fees for serving as executor & trustee.

(hence the tea)

when you've recovered from the shock, there are workarounds that don't totally name a trust company for ever & ever. For example, you can name your brother (if you trust him) but include in the will a wish that he retain the services of such-&-such a trust company, or such-&-such a chartered accountant, etc.

this will not be binding upon your brother, so if he is a poor administrator there will not be much your heirs can do about things, unless the estate is so huge that hiring lawyers would be feasible.

you can also name as executors both your brother & a trust company, but include an article that your brother shall have the right to discharge the trustco at any time ... then you'd go on to spell out whether he must replace trustco A with another trustoB or whether he would then be able to carry on alone ... but in this scenario one wonders why trustcoA was ever even named.

btw since you are married: your brother should not be the primary executor imho! Normally, each spouse in a couple will serve as executor for the other; that is, your husband would be your primary executor & vice versa.

bruddy would then become the "failing husband" executor. This means he would serve in a case where both members of the couple perished together or otherwise failed to survive each other.

same thing with guardian for the children. The surviving spouse - who is a parent of the minor children - is obviously going to take care of the children, so no guardian is needed at that point. It is only when both spice, ie both parents of the minor children, perish together that a guardian is necessary.


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## praire_guy (Sep 8, 2011)

pwm said:


> Our lawyer suggested our two adult children be appointed as co-executors. Seemed like a good idea, so we went with that.


Get a new lawyer. Having more than one executor is a mistake! 

Even if the two get along, grieving can do silly things to people. 

I have seen many examples of more than one executor in a will causing nothing but headache. 

Even if the 2 get along, the logistics of more than one executor is silly. 

I.e. you need two signatures, picking a date where both can attend, etc. it just ties your hands. 

Rethink it. Sometimes children are not the best choice either. You need a level headed, non emotional person to carry out your wishes.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I would never have my spouse be my executior. I have acted as executor several times now, and witnessed inappropriate executor choices, because the appointed executor was unable to handle the burden (and immense tedium) of acting as executor. To each their own, though!


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## piano mom (Jan 18, 2012)

MoneyGal said:


> because the appointed executor was unable to handle the burden (and immense tedium) of acting as executor.


This is the very reason why I was considering a non related third party to be executor. I actually just talked to someone at TD Canada Trust and he quoted me 3% (possibly less) if my estate is above $1.5m. I like using a trust company because they have in-house experts to deal with tax issues as well as professional administration. If I appointed my brother, he may end up hiring an accountant to do the work anyways. Also, since I have minor children, I need to have peace knowing that "their" money will be taken care of and not squandered away by lack of knowledge and expertise.

Maybe I'm thinking too much...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> I would never have my spouse be my executior. I have acted as executor several times now, and witnessed inappropriate executor choices, because the appointed executor was unable to handle the burden (and immense tedium) of acting as executor. To each their own, though!


it's a legitimate point i agree ... although you didn't specify whether the incompetent executors (unable to handle burdens etc) were surviving spouses or some other kind of relative or friend ...

theoretically speaking, would there be any reason to believe that a brother would be any better than a surviving spouse at handling "the burden (and immense tedium) of acting as executor" ?

lots of people are fretting with these issues, because mates & bros are not necessarily good estate administrators while professional estate administrators are not only pricey but can be oppressingly bureaucratic. Trusts for minor children are costly. In fact, since trustees are constrained to hold only prudent investments - & these are not paying anything these days - the trustees' fees for minor childrens' trusts can easily gobble up all of the trust income plus some of the capital as well!

i don't know if anyone noticed, but kcowan lobbed a radical-but-valuable new idea re estate planning into this forum a few months ago. Having tried several versions - ie wills decked out with trusts etc - kcowan said he's now working on transmitting many of the assets of an estate on to his heirs during his actual lifetime.

this idea appeals to me. It appeals to my outlaw robin hood instinct. There's something to be said for handing the reins on to the next generation plus a couple good charities & then retiring to live in the monastery, like eleanor of aquitaine at fontévrault.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

piano mom said:


> I actually just talked to someone at TD Canada Trust and he quoted me 3% (possibly less) if my estate is above $1.5m


i believe this would be just for the estate. It's around $50,000 btw. You are ok with that? 

but the 50k would not include any part of acting as trustee for trusts for the minor children ... those are additional fees ...

there is really only one practical solution. Do not die until your children are of major age. If you must die, make sure you have a sensible spouse.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Executor duties = nothing to do with trusts. 

Don't set up trusts for minor children if you can possibly avoid it. 

In theory I think a decedent's sibling is more able to handle the burden of acting as an executor than a surviving spouse - who is busy grieving and yet has to make ALL KINDS of decisions, including filing final tax returns, in accordance with immovable schedules. And because settling an estate can take SO long (one year plus is very, very common) and because it can take so much persistence (the oppressing bureaucracy is a function of the legal and tax systems, not the estate departments of financial institutions, IME), if a surviving spouse is beset by grief what being appointed as executor can present is a seemingly unending set of triggers to be reminded of their loss. I just personally think it's a lousy idea, especially given the situations I've been involved in.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I would never use the bank services for this.

I have been an executor twice in the last few years. I handled the Probate process for the last one (in BC) rather than use a lawyer. It was a fairly straightforward (with the great help of a do it yourself guide). This included doing a search for wills, contacting all beneficiaries, filing the probate papers with the court, filing the final tax return etc. In one instance I had to attend the land titles office and have the names on the title updated. It took all of 10 minutes in the LTO to accomplish this.

One thing I would strongly recommend (and you may need counsel on this from time to time) is to set up your assets etc. in a manner such that as many of them as possible can be exempt from the probate process, and most especially from probate taxes. Have a straighforward will and maintain a current list of assets, insurance policies, banks, and safe deposit boxes. Your executor will thank you, the entire process will be shortened, and your estate will avoid to the greatest extent possible probate taxes and other associated professional fees.

This assumes no family discord. I know of several people who have been through the wringer as exectutors/co-executors because of family or beneficiary discord. This is not a pleasant experience, it can elongate the process and eat away some of the assets in legal costs.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If I recall correctly, executor fees are dictated by legislation and have to be approved by the beneficiaries and the probate court. Estate trust companies charge fees, but any executor is entitled to the same amount of fees.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

piano mom

More important then the will is to have a power of attorney. If you do not have one you might want to consider doing that as well as the will.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

sags said:


> If I recall correctly, executor fees are dictated by legislation and have to be approved by the beneficiaries and the probate court. Estate trust companies charge fees, but any executor is entitled to the same amount of fees.


There are legislative guidelines (I know them for Ontario; here is a random link with the info: http://www.heydary.com/publications/executor_duties.html ) and you can also specify the fees in your will. The suggestion that a bank will charge more than any other executor can is off-base.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> In theory I think a decedent's sibling is more able to handle the burden of acting as an executor than a surviving spouse - who is busy grieving and yet has to make ALL KINDS of decisions, including filing final tax returns, in accordance with immovable schedules. And because settling an estate can take SO long (one year plus is very, very common) and because it can take so much persistence (the oppressing bureaucracy is a function of the legal and tax systems, not the estate departments of financial institutions, IME), if a surviving spouse is beset by grief what being appointed as executor can present is a seemingly unending set of triggers to be reminded of their loss. I just personally think it's a lousy idea, especially given the situations I've been involved in.



opinions on this issue seem to be anecdotal here!

afaik most trust companies & lawyers recommend mirror image wills to couples, with spousal executors in the first instance.

anedotally speaking, the only widows i have ever known were well-informed wives who had capable accountants to carry out the bureaucratic estate work. The accountants were inherited from their husbands, who had kept the wives well briefed & in close touch with everything.

so regardless of whether the surviving spice were grieving executors or whether they were merrie widows, everything went well.

re the lawyers & trust companies who recommend spousal wills that are mirror opposites, with the surviving spouse always acting as executor. I have never heard of a lawyer who would commence, when a couple arrive seeking to have their wills drawn up, by advising them that only their siblings should be trusted, because any surviving spouse is going to promptly deteriorate with grief into a weeping snivelling dishrag!

let us not let our experience with rugosa rubra colour our judgment. That situation was not caused by grief over the husband.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I have personally executed several estates, and I am involved in the execution of several others (without acting as executrix). I am proferring my opinion based on my own experience with situations in my personal and professional life, as are you! (RR did not once come to my mind prior to you invoking her name!)


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> ... i don't know if anyone noticed, but kcowan lobbed a radical-but-valuable new idea re estate planning into this forum a few months ago. Having tried several versions - ie wills decked out with trusts etc - kcowan said he's now working on transmitting many of the assets of an estate on to his heirs during his actual lifetime.
> 
> this idea appeals to me. It appeals to my outlaw robin hood instinct. There's something to be said for handing the reins on to the next generation plus a couple good charities & then retiring to live in the monastery, like eleanor of aquitaine at fontévrault.


Hmmm ... I'd say it's new to CMF. 

I've read several articles and my parents have passed assets on an ad-hoc basis throughout their retirement.


The only slowdown (and issue that the article pointed out) is that one really never knows exactly how much one will need so that my parents have held onto more than they planned on as they look at the rising medication expenses, among other other costs.


Cheers


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

yes that's what i said, it's all anecdotal, therefore somewhat meaningless!

besides, who is to say that grieving-widow-or-widower would not be besotted with grief even if she or her were not the executor? i've known people besotted with grief who could not drive a car or even make themselves a cup of tea ...

the majority of solicitors & trust companies continue to draw up wills for couples that are mirror opposites, with each spouse named as executor for the other in the first instance, either with or without a professional entity being named as co-executor ...


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

sags said:


> If I recall correctly, executor fees are dictated by legislation and have to be approved by the beneficiaries and the probate court. Estate trust companies charge fees, but any executor is entitled to the same amount of fees.


Entitled to ... but may not receive. My great-aunt spent a lot of time acting as executor to discover that a poor wording meant that a gift that was intended to be in addition to the executor fees ended up substituting for the fees. 




lonewolf said:


> More important then the will is to have a power of attorney. If you do not have one you might want to consider doing that as well as the will.


Going back to the anecdotes .... :rolleyes2:

The lawyer drawn POA had anywhere from five business days to twelve weeks delay taking effect - assuming the financial institution's lawyers at head office approved it. Essentially it was similar to a hold on a cheque.

The recommendation for speedy access to the assets was unanimously to have the financial institution's POA signed as "our lawyers trust what they drafted".


Cheers


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

eclectic it is a very interesting idea (kcowan's approach) & one that would have to be elaborately thought through in each individual case & carefully custom-tailored to the family grouping. 

it also requires adult children plus mature heirs who can get along all round. And of course, adequate provision for the testator(s) themselves has to be put in place.

still, given the high costs of professional trustees, i think it's an idea with merit in certain cases. In another post in this thread you will see fraser saying he has been an executor twice & his advice is that testators should plan their estates to be as simple as possible, especially taking care to keep assets outside probate when possible.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

piano mom said:


> This is the very reason why I was considering a non related third party to be executor. ... I like using a trust company because they have in-house experts to deal with tax issues as well as professional administration. If I appointed my brother, he may end up hiring an accountant to do the work anyways. Also, since I have minor children, I need to have peace knowing that "their" money will be taken care of and not squandered away by lack of knowledge and expertise.
> ..


If you are considering professional executor services, consider having your brother named as co-executor with the Trust Company. The Trust Company does all the work, but you have a family member who receives all the financial reports and to "oversee" that your wishes have been carried out. If TD Canada Trust is like Royal Trust, they will offer 3 types of executor services: 1) sole executor; 2) Co-executor with a family member; or 3) executor services hired after the fact by the Executor. They will explain this to you, and probably have a brochure on it.

If you need trusts established and maintained, that's a separate service. I think you will end up having more than one interview. 

Lawyers will also act as executors. Have you asked your lawyer about acting as executor?

If you have minor children for whom guardianship has to be established, and trusts set up and administered, I would think you would want a close friend or relation involved to at least keep an eye on the professionals.


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## Charlie (May 20, 2011)

I would choose a lawyer who specialized in estates over a trust company. And a qualified family member or friend/colleague ahead of the lawyer. This assumes you have those people in your circle of contacts, they understand the role and are willing to accept it as it's definitely not a job to be taken lightly. $50K will buy a lot of legal support for a simple will (and your base trust co fees will not include addressing disputes should those be an issue). Just my opinion having seen numerous estates worth more than $1.5m settled with a few $K of legal/accounting and a relatively diligent executor. If your estate is more complicated, you don't have such people available or you can foresee a dispute with the distribution you may want to go differently. (though i'd still go with a lawyer who specialized in estates with hourly charge over a base 3% of assets). 

This is terrible general advice without knowing the particulars of your situation or knowledge level, by the way....but of the estates I've seen distributed, I cannot think of one that would have benefited from such an additional fee.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

piano mom,

My wife and I are in the same situation. In fact, ours is more complicated (I think). We don't have any family on this side of Atlantic. We've been talking about a will for years and years. We know we HAVE to put it in place. The default setup is easy. I'm the executor for my wife. She is the executor for me. The surviving spouse takes care of the kid.

The question is, who to assign as a backup executor and a backup guardian. Family members are not an option. We have a few candidates in our circle of friends. None of them are ideal, for various reasons. So we've been stuck.

To answer your question, yes I would consider a trust company to be the backup executor. I'm not too concerned about high fees. The estate would be large enough to take care of the kid. Life insurance policies would cover all the fees.

What really gives me a pause is this: can I trust the trust company employees? Can an employee pull something like this:

- buy a fund on a DSC basis
- collect sales commission
- sell the fund one year later (who cares about DSC penalty)
- buy another fund on a DSC basis
- collect another sales commission
- rinse & repeat

What oversight is in place to prevent this kind of churning, when no family members are watching?

Aside from that concern, a trust company solves half of the problem (backup executor). It doesn't address the other half (backup guardian).



humble_pie said:


> there is really only one practical solution. Do not die until your children are of major age.


Yes. Our daughter is 14 and a half. Ontario age of majority is 18. If we procrastinate for another 3.5 years and don't die in the process, the problem will resolve itself. :disturbed: :culpability:


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

DW and I have been executors for MIL and Dad and also for both our brothers. The process always worked out easier than we would have anticipated. Now we have an older cousin who resides in BC as executor. Having settled Bro's estate in Ontario, I would suggest that you have a lawyer in the province to help (if relevant). It sure helped me.

Should cousin predecease us both, then oldest son in Ontario will get local assistance from our BC lawyer.

(BTW the Ontario lawyer is more competent than our BC one.)


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## kyahgirl (Jan 21, 2010)

Hi Piano mom;
To answer your original question I would say 'yes', I would definitely consider having a trust company be the back up if needed in settling my estate. This is not how its set up for my own estate because my circumstance doesn't warrant it. However, I do have one positive experience with using Scotia Trust to share. 

My unmarried sister died suddenly a couple of years ago. She had a will but it was not up to date and the executrix named was my other sister. Those two sisters lived in Victoria while the rest of the family lives across the country. 
The long and short of it was the sister who was the executrix was completely overwhelmed with the death of our sister plus the fact that our very elderly mother lived with the deceased sister and no provisions had been made for her. We decided as a family to have a trust company assist the executrix and their fee was negotiated at 2% of the estate. This allowed the executrix to be involved but have the letter writing and running around and dealing with far flung family plus several charities (beneficiaries) handled elsewhere while she focused on helping our mother and finding a new home for her. 
Every situation is different and every person has a different idea of what a good cost/benefit ratio is. It has taken 2 years to finally get to the point where my sister's estate is settled and all the other stuff is handled. The final bill from the trust company was about $30,000. They earned it IMO and if it saved my eldest sister from losing another 10 years off her life due to stress than it was worth it to me.
There has been a lot of good discussion on this thread. I realize that every person is in their own unique situation and not everyone has nearby family or trusted friends to take these huge burdens on. I think its reassuring to know there are options out there. You just have to be diligent and do the legwork to find the right party to help you.


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