# Cheap condos and townhouses like these two



## Taxsaver

What do you think of this townhouse? $57K looks like a great deal for a townhouse with 3 bedrooms and 2 washrooms. Where's the catch???

Click on OPEN FLYER.

http://rajbali.com/toronto/Toronto/611068

Location:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=252 John Garland Blvd&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

And how about this condo? 

http://rajbali.com/toronto/Toronto/640876


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## Berubeland

I rented out some of those townhouses on John Garland. There are a few problems with them I think. The area is pretty seedy. The condo board made a rule that investors couldn't use them as rooming houses for the college down the street, the maintenance fees are amazingly high and finally my conclusion from all this is that the condo board does not know what they are doing and desperately need to be removed. 

It really isn't a bad play for a couple to decide to live there for a few years until things straighten out, even becoming involved with the condo board to make change happen. 

Another building with prices this low had units for sale a few years back at Kennedy and Eglinton. The prices have since rebounded to more than double.


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## the-royal-mail

Yikes. That first one looks like a low income area. Probably has tons of kids around, lots of people coming and going, crime, all sorts of foot traffic, probably has a parking lot full of junk cars. Could have been a drug den. What does the inside look like? Same question for the other place.

Check the crime stats for these buildings. Google their street addresses on news sites to see if the police have received a lot of calls to these buildings/areas. I can just hear the constant whail of sirens in that first site lol.

Too many questions. Need to go in person and view the insides and my guess is based on the prices and photos posted here, you'll be wasting your money. I'm already running based on what little info is presented above.


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## Taxsaver

Exactly the information I needed. But if you have more, please post.


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## Taxsaver

I'm going to visit them anyway just to give me some experience. I will ask to take pictures. I will provide you with a report. Some kind of news investigation report, I guess.


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## the-royal-mail

Please do! Will be interested to see if Berube and I hit or missed the mark on these. There's gotta be a reason they're priced the way they are.


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## Taxsaver

the-royal-mail said:


> Please do! Will be interested to see if Berube and I hit or missed the mark on these. There's gotta be a reason they're priced the way they are.


These are comments that will assure I follow up on that. If you have any questions you feel I should ask the seller and real estate agent, please let me know.


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## Berubeland

When buying a condo you need a copy of the reserve fund study, the rules and regs of that particular condo, plus in the case of that condo at John Garland, I'd also knock on doors to see what other owners have to say. 

Maintenance fees at that place are over 700 a month which is absolutely ridiculous.


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> When buying a condo you need a copy of the reserve fund study, the rules and regs of that particular condo, plus in the case of that condo at John Garland, I'd also knock on doors to see what other owners have to say.
> 
> Maintenance fees at that place are over 700 a month which is absolutely ridiculous.


700? Why does the flyer say 453 a year?


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## Berubeland

Not sure Taxsaver... it can depend on the size of the unit. It usually goes by square foot and you pay a poportional amount of the common elements. 

Also I am remembering a listing I saw quite a while back so my memory may be mistaken. At the time I noticed because I found it shocking  

Still people write up the MLS listings so it could have been an error or yours could have an error. Point is that is one of the things that have to be checked. 

If memory serves me correctly though there are no amenities to speak of at that complex so even $453 is a lot. Sometimes there is a extra amount tacked onto it for a period of time to pay for something specific, like a new parking lot or another capital expense that has not been budgeted for. 

http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9272898 Wow I'm smarter than I thought. Just thought I would take a look and there it was. So something to look out for.


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## Berubeland

Wow much much smarter than I thought 

Next listing explains....

http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9293524


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> Not sure Taxsaver... it can depend on the size of the unit. It usually goes by square foot and you pay a poportional amount of the common elements.
> 
> Also I am remembering a listing I saw quite a while back so my memory may be mistaken. At the time I noticed because I found it shocking
> 
> Still people write up the MLS listings so it could have been an error or yours could have an error. Point is that is one of the things that have to be checked.
> 
> If memory serves me correctly though there are no amenities to speak of at that complex so even $453 is a lot. Sometimes there is a extra amount tacked onto it for a period of time to pay for something specific, like a new parking lot or another capital expense that has not been budgeted for.
> 
> http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9272898 Wow I'm smarter than I thought. Just thought I would take a look and there it was. So something to look out for.


I don't really care about amnities. Or should I?

The $453 is only $37 a month, so I don't mind that too much. 

The other property on the same street, which you posted the link, has a much higher condo fees, $455 a month. How about its "Special Assessment; 291.24 Per Month For 13 Years". What does that mean?


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## Berubeland

I'm convinced it is 453 per month on your place not 37$ per month.

A special assessment is one of the reasons I hate condos so much. Lets say they want to change the parking lot or some other repair that needs to be done they just finance it and then the owner has to pay what they call a "special assessment" It's an extra charge....


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## the-royal-mail

Taxsaver said:


> I don't really care about amnities. Or should I?
> 
> The $453 is only $37 a month, so I don't mind that too much.
> 
> The other property on the same street, which you posted the link, has a much higher condo fees, $455 a month. How about its "Special Assessment; 291.24 Per Month For 13 Years". What does that mean?


There is no such thing as $37 a month condo fees in Toronto for a unit like this. C'mon. This is not 1965.

You don't care if they plow the driveway in the winter? You don't care if they cut the grass and clear away the garbage off the grass after the snow melts in the spring? What about that huge pothole in your parking lot? You're okay with that?


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## Berubeland

That's maintenance.... Royal

Amenities are things like pool, workout room, party room, visitor suites, putting green, yoga room even security. 

And some townhouses have a rec center shared for use of the residents. The point is that that could explain a bit of why maintenance fees are so high. All these amenities cost money to operate and staff etc. In these kinds of complexes if you are not getting any amenities, where is the money going? Where did it go in the past? Etc....


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## iherald

So for the townhouse, when you include taxes, (monthly) maintenance fees and the special fee, you're paying $10,654.88 per year. That's approximately 19% of the purchase price you'd pay yearly in fees. I don't know the rent in that area, but you better be able to charge a lot to cover those fees (which don't include insurance, mortgage, internal maintenance etc).

It doesn't seem like a fixer-upper since you can won't be able to charge too much if the rest of the units are junk.


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## Sampson

Berubeland said:


> In these kinds of complexes if you are not getting any amenities, where is the money going? Where did it go in the past? Etc....


Berubeland is spot on here. If the money is not going towards expensive elevators, pools etc, that means there is something fundamentally wrong with the complex and the monies are going to repairs.

The $291/mo for 13 years special assessment means something broke, and instead of charging the $45k it takes to repair whatever is wrong, they are spreading payments over 13 years.

Maybe go for a peak, and see how the realtor describes the place, but stay away. There are some major problems here costing $400-$700/month.

I own a multi-level condo and the biggest portion of our expenses is gas, water, and electricity (in the common areas), and the caretaker salary, and insurance. These amount alone amount to 60% of the fee. Maintenance & repairs another 25%. Looking at the pictures and the fact they are essentially row houses; water, gas and maintenance probably doesn't cost very much - maybe $200-300 at most. So the rest of that fee is going to fund major repairs.

Make sure to also get a copy of the condo's latest reserve fund study. This will outline the major expenses for the Corp. over then next 10+ years and you should be able to see large planned expenditures and one possible source of the bleeding.


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## the-royal-mail

Terrific comments here by Sampson and Berube, just terrific.

I would add too that older condos are inherently flawed in that the fees keep going up up up as the bldgs continue to age and need more and more repairs. Think of a tower where the expensive elevator maintenance costs keep racking up, roof needs work etc. That's why the condo should build up a reserve fund when the building is new, so they have the money in hand by the time these major expendures arise.

For these reasons, I bought a fairly NEW condo, less than 3 years old so that while the fees were going to the reserve fund they were NOT going to major structural repairs and I could enjoy the relative calm of a newer bldg.


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## Taxsaver

I realize that buying cheap could become costy. Like buying a used car that will require repairs after repairs after repairs. I'm writing down all your points. If I don't get answers, I will ask why I can't get them. I will write down what they say so I have a complete report for you to analyze.

I think I should buy something in a building where someone knows is living.


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## iherald

Taxsaver said:


> I realize that buying cheap could become costy. Like buying a used car that will require repairs after repairs after repairs. I'm writing down all your points. If I don't get answers, I will ask why I can't get them. I will write down what they say so I have a complete report for you to analyze.
> 
> I think I should buy something in a building where someone knows is living.


I noticed that both this townhouse and the other one that was posted both are being sold "as is, where is". Which would concern me. 

But, as my parents always said, there is no problem going to meet with the broker, you'll learn something new and that information will inform all future decisions (and if you post it here, will inform us too!)


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## Berubeland

Dear Taxsaver, 

My recommendation is to buy a house, not a condo. I really don't like condos because even the new ones have a couple inherent flaws. 

1 - The people who comprise the board are completely out of their league, they are not trained in any way or qualified to make decisions about a million dollar asset

2 - Property management companies are paid according to operating budgets, any savings to the building will result in their pay being cut. Compared to a similar rental building, budgets to run these condos are at least double

3 - People just don't understand that when you buy a condo you buy into the liability of the entire complex structure, boilers, coolers, pipes, building envelope, common areas, roofs, elevators and more. So even though it may seem like you are just buying an apartment, you are responsible financially for a huge number of moving parts you don't understand and have no control over. Mismanagement will cost you thousands of $$ and you are unlikely to even know about it. 

OK done now


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## Sampson

Berubeland said:


> 1 - The people who comprise the board are completely out of their league, they are not trained in any way or qualified to make decisions about a million dollar asset


This is not entirely true. Many people involved with condo boards (in mine at least) deal with much larger portfolios at work.



Berubeland said:


> 2 - Property management companies are paid according to operating budgets, any savings to the building will result in their pay being cut. Compared to a similar rental building, budgets to run these condos are at least double


True, but a good board can easily prevent this. Our fees went down last cycle.



Berubeland said:


> 3 - People just don't understand that when you buy a condo you buy into the liability of the entire complex structure, boilers, coolers, pipes, building envelope, common areas, roofs, elevators and more.


This I fully agree with. However, with some knowledge and planning, studying the financials and management decisions (condo board, via meeting minutes), while cumbersome, is often much easier than studying companies when buying their stocks.


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## Taxsaver

I appreciate your help, . I would love to have a house instead. But not here in Toronto because it's so expensive. I may move to Hamilton or around Toronto where it's much cheaper. But then, I'll have car expenses. 

Or the other solution is to go back to my hometown in Quebec in 5 years where it's even cheaper. But then, I might not have a job and winters will kill me.


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## Berubeland

Sampson said:


> This is not entirely true. Many people involved with condo boards (in mine at least) deal with much larger portfolios at work.
> 
> *For every qualified person on a condo board there are 3 nosy retired ladies who are much more concerned with building gossip, personality conflicts and sending notices to people who plant the wrong coloured flowers and put out floor mats in common areas*
> 
> True, but a good board can easily prevent this. Our fees went down last cycle.
> 
> *The exception does not prove the rule. As a rule condo fees go only in one direction and it's not down.*
> 
> 
> This I fully agree with. However, with some knowledge and planning, studying the financials and management decisions (condo board, via meeting minutes), while cumbersome, is often much easier than studying companies when buying their stocks.


*That's the paper work... but what about the actual physical plant of the building, the stuff that cost millions. Are your boilers newer or recently replaced? Elevators and the maintenance contract that goes along with it? Is the building up to fire code? 


That's the danger of it IMHO. 
*


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## Sampson

While I'm not disagreeing those risks exist, aside from gossipy old ladies on the board, many of those problems also exist for a personal home.

I've got no one to call when my roof starts to leak. The only difference I see in my own home is that often I can chose not to repair things if I don't want. With the condo, depending on the bylaws you may not have that flexibility.

Re: hardware/mechanical of the structure - you can find out when those are replaced and how often they are maintained etc.

If you plan on buying a condo certainly be prepared to dig deep (which as an owner, and often as a prospective buyer, you are fully entitled to do). But this is no different from a house. Is there mold in the walls, is the foundation cracked and structural integrity compromised, when was the roofing repaired, are the trees a hazard of falling onto your house?

Certainly the overall value of the potential liability could be higher, but it depends on the condo. Not all condos are equal. A 20-story (150-unit) high rise is much different than a 3-story (20 unit) condo. To generalize that the risks associated with these different types are the same is the same as me using my particular unit as a the 'representative' scenario.

I guess my main point is only that it is possible to find good units, good value, good management, just like any other investment.


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## the-royal-mail

Taxsaver said:


> I appreciate your help, . I would love to have a house instead. But not here in Toronto because it's so expensive. I may move to Hamilton or around Toronto where it's much cheaper. But then, I'll have car expenses.


The car commute from Hamilton to Toronto is HORRIBLE, very costly, stressful, time consuming and pure he-l. Everytime there's an accident or even a vehicle pulled off to the side, you get one million rubberneckers who slow down to stare. This costs gas $$$ and wastes time. You'll also be changing oil in the car constantly and changing the car. Parking in DT TO is $20 a day.

Housing in Hamilton is priced according to commuters using everything with 1.5 hours of the GTA as a bedroom community.

GO and VIA trains are packed like sardine cans during rush hour and are often cancelled account track work, suicides, grade crossing collisions etc.


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## Taxsaver

Hamilton is great if you WORK in Hamilton, then.  How about Ajax and Oshawa?


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## the-royal-mail

Yep, all those are good places to live _*if *_you work there. Ajax and Oshawa is the same way. Anywhere GO serves, there is urban sprawl. All roads lead to the GTA and rush hour is nasty.

Is your job in Toronto? Or are you just thinking about moving there for work?


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## Berubeland

What's your budget Taxsaver? 

Don't forget when you are qualifying for that townhouse you also need to qualify for the maintenance fees. That $700 can buy a lot of house when calculating what kind of mortgage you can afford. 

I'm with Royal on this one Hamilton is very far out. 

You might be able to buy something in Scarborough. Scarborough is top of the pack for increases in property value according to REIN. You could possible buy something with a separate suite you could rent out. 

For instance I have this complex pegged for a decent increase in property value. http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9407484 They just built a large mall steps away and the area is in transition.


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## Berubeland

Here's another example.... and this one is brand newish and the maintenance fees are reasonable. 

http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=8839476

The area is not great again but... no worse than John Garland.


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## Taxsaver

the-royal-mail said:


> Is your job in Toronto? Or are you just thinking about moving there for work?


My job is in Toronto, in the Steeles-Victoria Park area. Just West of Scarborough and just South of Markham. I'm planning to work there for several years.


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> For instance I have this complex pegged for a decent increase in property value. http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9407484 They just built a large mall steps away and the area is in transition.


That's really good. (I don't want to sound too excited because it will reduce my will to bargain a better price). Would you mind I call you to discuss? Or if you have some time, maybe I can visit the place? I'm not totally, though. I think I would have the 20% down payment only in a year, so I don't want to make you lose your time. Let's say $150,000 would be a maximum for any residences. I really insist on having at least one room for rent to help me financially.


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## Berubeland

Well I'm not a realtor, but I do have a guy... This one is actually a power of sale so you might be able to snag a deal. 

I was looking at it for an investor, I get around.


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> Well I'm not a realtor, but I do have a guy... This one is actually a power of sale so you might be able to snag a deal.
> 
> I was looking at it for an investor, I get around.


Well, let's forget this one for now. I'm here on this board for a while. I'm sure I will let you everyone know when I'm really ready. Not now.


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## Berubeland

You may actually save some dough by waiting... the CMHC rule changes are going to kick in, the new HST is going to kick in, the market is supposed to cool off.


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## FrugalTrader

Berubeland said:


> Here's another example.... and this one is brand newish and the maintenance fees are reasonable.
> 
> http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=8839476
> 
> The area is not great again but... no worse than John Garland.


The house in the link seems too good to be true.  What's the catch?


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## Taxsaver

FrugalTrader said:


> The house in the link seems too good to be true. What's the catch?


Had I had the cash for a 20% down payment, I would have visited the place for sure. Like other ads on this site, it does not say how many washrooms there are. It does not even say there is one!


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## Berubeland

Frugal Trader - It's in a pretty nasty part of town. In my opinion though if you are not out to cause trouble it can be a decent enough place to live. These places are not great for rentals either. You can find good tenants but you have to be very selective. 

It depends on your family situation as well. The area I live in is nice for me I got a great big lot a solid double brick house that I can build up another story if I even get the dough. I am not at all thrilled with the schools around here. 

I would much rather have a house I can easily afford in a seedy part of town then a house I can't afford in a really nice part of town.


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> Frugal Trader - It's in a pretty nasty part of town. In my opinion though if you are not out to cause trouble it can be a decent enough place to live. These places are not great for rentals either. You can find good tenants but you have to be very selective.
> 
> It depends on your family situation as well. The area I live in is nice for me I got a great big lot a solid double brick house that I can build up another story if I even get the dough. I am not at all thrilled with the schools around here.
> 
> I would much rather have a house I can easily afford in a seedy part of town then a house I can't afford in a really nice part of town.


Better take a self-defense class before moving to that neighborhood!


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## Berubeland

Here's another consideration.... places in a transitional area increase a lot more than houses in mature, good, neighborhoods.


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## Taxsaver

Good recommendations. So studying the location is essential. Not good to put too much focus on the condo itself.


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## Berubeland

Picking a location wisely is essential to making the best appreciation. If you are picking a single family home you want to get the highest return possible. 

By picking an area that is either in the beginning stages of transition is the best way to make a good return. As you and many others are finding out the great locations come at a premium. The trick is to find the next good area. 

What I have found is that signs are there for increases in property value. Look for building of malls and stores and transit. Look for prices that stick out. I remember driving by the townhouses by the beach in Toronto when preconstruction they were 279,000. Now they are around 600,000. I mean it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that people like to live across the street from the beach. 

I like the Morningside/Kingston Rd area because it is adjacent to Port Union a very nice area and they have just built a large mall there right on the corner. Of course no one can ever predict the future....


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> I like the Morningside/Kingston Rd area because it is adjacent to Port Union a very nice area and they have just built a large mall there right on the corner. Of course no one can ever predict the future....


I'm so excited!!! Summer 2011, dear Berubeland. I will be ready then. Or even a bit better. Are there better times in the year to buy?


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## Berubeland

December is the cheapest time to buy. People who need to sell get desperate and I'm afraid there's less buyers right before Christmas.


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> December is the cheapest time to buy. People who need to sell get desperate and I'm afraid there's less buyers right before Christmas.


So December 2011 is the time when I should buy. That would be a nice Christmas gift to myself! 

You know, I don't need anything big. Just two bedrooms and one bathroom, one floor, not even a basement. Cost less to renovate and to heat, and easier and faster to keep clean. How about buying a house, sell it and have it moved, and buy an pre-fabricated one, smaller, installed? I'll see your comments when I wake up tomorrow morning. Have a good night.


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## Berubeland

Taxsaver said:


> So December 2011 is the time when I should buy. That would be a nice Christmas gift to myself!
> 
> You know, I don't need anything big. Just two bedrooms and one bathroom, one floor, not even a basement. Cost less to renovate and to heat, and easier and faster to keep clean. How about buying a house, sell it and have it moved, and buy an pre-fabricated one, smaller, installed? I'll see your comments when I wake up tomorrow morning. Have a good night.


I'm not sure I understand you.... you want to buy a house....then move it....then put a smaller house with no basement on the same lot. 

You can do this but I'm not sure why you would do it.... generally people who want to move houses actually give it away or charge very little so they don''t have to pay for demolition. 

It's probably better to buy a small house to start with


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> I'm not sure I understand you.... you want to buy a house....then move it....then put a smaller house with no basement on the same lot.
> 
> You can do this but I'm not sure why you would do it.... generally people who want to move houses actually give it away or charge very little so they don''t have to pay for demolition.
> 
> It's probably better to buy a small house to start with


My point was that I would prefer to have a new house to ensure I won't have to do much renovation on it. However, I did not know that I would end up giving away the house. OK, let's do as if I never said anything.


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## Sherlock

If you're looking to buy a house but can't afford one in Toronto, I would suggest Newmarket. It's within reasonable commuting distance (20-30 minutes to North York if you leave early) but relatively affordable. If you want even cheaper, then Keswick. About 40 minutes on the 404 and you're in Toronto. Either is a far better option than Hamilton.

I'm in the same boat as you. I want a house, but definitely can't afford one in Toronto any time soon on my salary, so I will probably have to settle for a condo as I am not willing to tolerate a long daily commute. I am looking at condos around where I work in the Sheppard/Bayview area but even they are 260-280k for a 500 sq/ft 1 bedroom. I'm really hoping some kind of housing crash occurs to drive those prices down.


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## Taxsaver

Taxsaver said:


> What do you think of this townhouse? $57K looks like a great deal for a townhouse with 3 bedrooms and 2 washrooms. Where's the catch???
> 
> Click on OPEN FLYER.
> 
> http://rajbali.com/toronto/Toronto/611068
> 
> Location:
> 
> http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=252 John Garland Blvd&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
> 
> And how about this condo?
> 
> http://rajbali.com/toronto/Toronto/640876


I will visit 99 Blackwell (Sheppard/Neilson) on Tuesday, May 24. That's in Scarborough. I will let you know about the results.

http://rajbali.com/toronto/Toronto/640876


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## Berubeland

You should also go see this one 

http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9433127

I have a suite I manage on the 6th floor and the building is pretty good and quiet. 

Why so far away to go see a property?


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## the-royal-mail

tax, have you considered a mobile home? Seems that would fit your needs more.

As for commuting, I'm afraid that no matter how you slice it, unless you live 2KM from work you will be stuck in your car rubbernecking accidents for the better part of an hour (up to 4.5 hours on the worse snow days) trying to "get away" from the city. Everybody does that. I did it and learned my lesson. Southern Ontario is a lose-lose situation. Either you pay commute costs (gas, frequent oil changes, car maintenance, tires, wiper fluid, higher insurance/accident risk or fight for a square foot of standing room on crowded transit) and lower RE costs out of the city or you pay higher housing costs close to work in the city. I've done both, and both have extreme pros and cons.

Sorry to veer from topic.


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## the-royal-mail

Oh and to see what places are REALLY like to live in, visit them on Saturday night and during the day on a sunny summer Sunday to see what the area/building/other tenants are like. No sense going there during the week when no one is home.

To get an idea of how long it REALLY takes to commute, don't do it on the weekend or during a weekday, do it during rush hour. Follow the route between 7-8:30AM towards work, and then repeat in the opposite direction at 4:30-5:30. Time it.


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> You should also go see this one
> 
> http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9433127
> 
> I have a suite I manage on the 6th floor and the building is pretty good and quiet.
> 
> Why so far away to go see a property?



WOW! When can I see it? I would prefer on week-ends.

I did not realize that Neilson was so far.  It's all right, I just wanted to see a place that is in your opinion pretty bad, if I remember correctly one of your posts. I would like to see with my own eyes.


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## Taxsaver

the-royal-mail said:


> tax, have you considered a mobile home? Seems that would fit your needs more.
> 
> As for commuting, I'm afraid that no matter how you slice it, unless you live 2KM from work you will be stuck in your car rubbernecking accidents for the better part of an hour (up to 4.5 hours on the worse snow days) trying to "get away" from the city. Everybody does that. I did it and learned my lesson. Southern Ontario is a lose-lose situation. Either you pay commute costs (gas, frequent oil changes, car maintenance, tires, wiper fluid, higher insurance/accident risk or fight for a square foot of standing room on crowded transit) and lower RE costs out of the city or you pay higher housing costs close to work in the city. I've done both, and both have extreme pros and cons.
> 
> Sorry to veer from topic.


No problem at all. Any help is welcome. 

Where are located those mobile homes close to Toronto?

When one tells his friends that he has a mobile home, it seems to be that they laugh!


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## Berubeland

Taxsaver,

Your friends will laugh just like they laugh at my car and my house and encourage me to spend. 

I laugh when I don't have to work for a#####s and don't have any stupid car payments to make or higher insurance premiums and higher heating and cooling cost. 

I laugh all the way to the bank. 

There are mobile homes east of the city but they too far for you IMHO.


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> Taxsaver,
> 
> There are mobile homes east of the city but they too far for you IMHO.


I could not locate any. Would you please tell me where they generally are in the east of the city? Thanks.


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## Berubeland

http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9450627

There is only one right now but I have seen more before. This one is out in Bowmanville.


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9450627
> 
> There is only one right now but I have seen more before. This one is out in Bowmanville.


Nice. 50 km from my workplace (404 and Steeles). How long do you think it takes to drive from Bowmanville to my workplace at around 9AM and to come back at around 6PM?

I like the concept of a mobile home compared to condos because you don't have to pay the maintenance fees and that you don't have neighbous neither above, under or directly beside you. The only thing is that I will need a car and will spend more time on the road. I'm looking for an additional job as a security guard, so I might need a car anyway.

How much do you guess it would cost a month in heating, electricity and taxes? Thanks for your help!

EDIT: Very tempting. On September 12, 2010, I would have the $8,000 down payment. Then I would have the owner hold the mortgage for two years.


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> Taxsaver,
> 
> Your friends will laugh just like they laugh at my car and my house and encourage me to spend.
> 
> I laugh when I don't have to work for a#####s and don't have any stupid car payments to make or higher insurance premiums and higher heating and cooling cost.
> 
> I laugh all the way to the bank.
> 
> There are mobile homes east of the city but they too far for you IMHO.


You're so right! Perceptions on mobile homes in Toronto are so different from the ones in Quebec. In Quebec, people laugh at you because you're a low-life or that you're in financial trouble to be "reduced" to living in such a terrible thing. People in Toronto are simply happy that you will have something that will be YOURS.

$40,000 is something very affordable. I love the idea of having it paid off in a very few years. Once paid off, you can invest a lot of your extra money. Ideally, I would like to have a place to live in, mortage-free, work 3 days instead of 5 days a week at my current workplace in Toronto, and work another job, 2 days very close from my home. This would limit my traveling to Toronto. It seems that money gives you options.


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9450627
> 
> There is only one right now but I have seen more before. This one is out in Bowmanville.


Does the price include the land or do I rent it?


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## Taxsaver

Taxsaver said:


> Does the price include the land or do I rent it?


Reply from a RE agent:

QUOTE

The price does not include land. The land lease, along with Hydro, Water, Garbage And Snow Removal is include in the $630.58/month maintenance fee. Plus the park management reserves the right to approve any purchaser.

The fees seem a bit higher than what I've seen. There is a home in Newcastle, priced a bit higher, the fees are $325 but there is no indication of the land lease costs. If you want to see pictures of that one just CLCK HERE. To be honest, I don't know of an area where this type of home is sold with the land, I've only ever seen leased.


UNQUOTE


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## Berubeland

I'll see if I can get a hold of my agent guy. He can tell me if the condo is sold, what they bought it for and how long it's been on the market. 

I know the last tenants there were evicted. My tenant on the 6th floor told me. 

PM me your availability for this weekend please


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## Taxsaver

I had the pleasure to meet Berurbeland during my visit to the condominium we've been discussing on this board, see link below. I was really impressed with the price and the condominium. The only problem is the down payment. I'll be out of debt on June 11, and this condo deal should not be out there for very long. It seems this opportunity has arised a bit too early. The down payment (5%) would be $4,000. Of course, this does not include the other initial fees (lawyer, inspection, etc.) I would have to pay. There are a few ways for me to get the money. 

1. RRSP: $2,000
2. I'll have $1,000 in my bank account on Friday, May 28.
3. Borrow money from family members.
4. Put the remaining on my line of credit at 5% (downpayment - RRSP - bank account) : $1,000.

What earned minus my expenses, I can come up with an extra $1,700 a month in average, so $20,000. I would be able to pay the whole thing in 5 or 6 years.

The maintenance fees (which include hydro and heating) are $360 a month and the tax is $60 a month. 

What do you think?

http://www.torontomls.net/PublicWeb/CL_BF.asp?link_no=31343113.336000&t=l&fm=M


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## Berubeland

You could ask for a 60 day closing which would enable you to scrounge up some more dough. 

You could offer a little less than the asking and see what happens....


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> You could ask for a 60 day closing which would enable you to scrounge up some more dough.
> 
> You could offer a little less than the asking and see what happens....


The 60-day closing option would be nice becaues I'm looking at my finance projections for the next 60 days. I would have the 5% down payment ($4000) without borrowing from my relatives/friends or line of credit.

What are the other initial fees? Do we have the condo inspected?


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## the-royal-mail

Taxsaver said:


> 1. RRSP: $2,000
> 2. I'll have $1,000 in my bank account on Friday, May 28.
> 3. Borrow money from family members.
> 4. Put the remaining on my line of credit at 5% (downpayment - RRSP - bank account) : $1,000.
> What do you think?


IMO this is a bad idea. IMO also you are rushing to go after this property a bit too much. Your plan to come up with the $4K is not financially sound, not one iota. Do you even have a rainy day fund? What about moving expenses?

Sorry to rain on your parade but you did ask for what we thought.

As a buyer, you will always have options. YOU are in the driver's seat. Make a plan to save the money for DP first, before making any offers. You need time.


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## Taxsaver

the-royal-mail said:


> IMO this is a bad idea. IMO also you are rushing to go after this property a bit too much. Your plan to come up with the $4K is not financially sound, not one iota. Do you even have a rainy day fund? What about moving expenses?
> 
> Sorry to rain on your parade but you did ask for what we thought.
> 
> As a buyer, you will always have options. YOU are in the driver's seat. Make a plan to save the money for DP first, before making any offers. You need time.


No problem. I'm not afraid of the truth, as long it is the truth. So funny -yeah right. I'm sitting around looking at my budget and a printout of the house information... I have to decide!

By the way, I don't have a rainy day fund at all...


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## Taxsaver

Thanks for your private message, Berubeland. You really made my day. I'm going to give up this one. And I'm going to follow The-Royal-Mail's advice. I will first build some reserves of cash first. But I will be ready this fall or winter!


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## Four Pillars

Totally agree with Royal - yes, you can probably do the deal but you are better off waiting.

Never fall in love with a property - there are plenty more just like it when you are ready.


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## Berubeland

In case anyone was wondering. I quoted one of my bosses, a very wealthy man.

"Never do things on one foot" 

Four Pillars is 100% right as well, the next opportunity may well be better. 

Real estate agents spend their lives trying to create a sense of urgency. This is how they get buyers to participate in bidding wars. I ask you this "Is it possible that when tax saver looks for a property later when he is ready that there will not be any?" Not likely. There are always deals.


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## the-royal-mail

Thanks for the agreement - I guess it's unanimous. Bottom line is that you don't want to put all of life's eggs into the basket of buying a house. Things like asking family for loans and using LOC $ should happen only in dire emergency. Again, IMO as always.

tax, I would suggest the following plan to save up:

-do not touch RRSP
-do not borrow from family members for this (save that for a dire emergency)
-do not take out a loan for any portion of this home purchase
-DO build up a rainy day savings of at least $2-3K to start, BEFORE taking on a property (to be prepared for job loss or other crisis the day after you sign for your property, it happens)
-DO save up $1000 for moving expenses (ie. call pro movers, don't bug friends/family to lug your things, plus all the costs of disconnecting and reconnecting various services)

After all of these things have been accomplished, THEN start saving the $4K for the DP. And actually you will need to save more than that to pay for land transfer tax, lawyer, closing costs etc so you should aim to save at least $2-3K more for these things. Plus you may end up buying a slightly more expensive property in the end so $4K is actually a minimum. Aim for more, if you can, otherwise you will be limited (with no wiggle room) during the searching and buying process.

Adding it all up, you would need to save:

-rainy day fund $3K
-moving expenses $1K
-$7K for DP plus closing costs (minimum)
===============
Total $11K. (minimum)

How long will it take you to save $11K? Will that work with your other life dependencies?


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## Taxsaver

the-royal-mail said:


> Adding it all up, you would need to save:
> 
> -rainy day fund $3K
> -moving expenses $1K
> -$7K for DP plus closing costs (minimum)
> ===============
> Total $11K. (minimum)
> 
> How long will it take you to save $11K? Will that work with your other life dependencies?


Thanks for the breakdown. I will have that $11K in early January 2011.


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## the-royal-mail

Excellent - it's all adding up for you now. Just make sure to avoid Christmas shopping and malls and instead focus on property searching.  Keep us posted.


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## Four Pillars

I think $1,000 for moving expenses/hooking up new services is on the low side.

There also seems to be a pile of expenses associated with new houses that suck up some money. I can't really think of any offhand - maybe window coverings/some furniture etc?


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## MoneyGal

Painting, rugs, decor stuff, shelving, etc. I'd budget $1000 just for that stuff.


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## Taxsaver

the-royal-mail said:


> Excellent - it's all adding up for you now. Just make sure to avoid Christmas shopping and malls and instead focus on property searching.  Keep us posted.


Sure. Sometimes, I'm thinking about buying the condo without telling you guys about it.


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## Berubeland

I disagree with Royal Mail about one thing. 

My family are very annoying, what is the point of even speaking to them if they won't help me move. They bug me all the time can't I bug them just once? 

I think it was MoneyGal who posted a nice link here one time about the real estate market by month. 

Taxsaver there are good deals in December !!!


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> Taxsaver there are good deals in December !!!


Yeah, sure...  

My friends were trying to comfort me yesterday. They said, "It's the first one you see. You will see others. The next one might be better!". It made me think of the mother who tries to convince her daughter that the first boy they fell in love with is a no-good, and better ones will show up. It's only later that the daughter thanked her mom.


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## Rob_23

Taxsaver - you seem to be in the same situation as me. I'll be looking for a house too, hopefully this winter. I do have money saved but I am waiting for the right time and also to line up a few things first.

I've read this whole thread and I'm curious why you want to live in a sketchy part of Scarbrough when your not commuting downtown? Vic Park and Steeles is a good 40-50 min drive in rush hour each way. I personally would go north, even if the commute is the same. You will get more house and a nicer, safer place to live. The city is expanding north and the GO service is expanding that way too, which both are good for resale depending on how long your looking to stay.


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## Berubeland

The condo was on the market for $79,000.

Also for those who don't like Scarberia it is listed as the #1 section of Toronto that will increase in value as predicted by the Real Estate Investment Network.


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## Taxsaver

Rob_23 said:


> Taxsaver - you seem to be in the same situation as me. I'll be looking for a house too, hopefully this winter. I do have money saved but I am waiting for the right time and also to line up a few things first.
> 
> I've read this whole thread and I'm curious why you want to live in a sketchy part of Scarbrough when your not commuting downtown? Vic Park and Steeles is a good 40-50 min drive in rush hour each way. I personally would go north, even if the commute is the same. You will get more house and a nicer, safer place to live. The city is expanding north and the GO service is expanding that way too, which both are good for resale depending on how long your looking to stay.


Rob, thanks for your suggestions. I will certain look at a wider area when I'm ready in December. The bus ride is about 45 minutes, including the waiting time. It's a lot of time that could be better used.


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> The condo was on the market for $79,000.
> 
> Also for those who don't like Scarberia it is listed as the #1 section of Toronto that will increase in value as predicted by the Real Estate Investment Network.


I think it has been sold because I no longer see it listed. Berubeland, I see that Unit 104 was for sale and has been sold at $88K. Was the one we visited Unit 105? And they also have an unit on the 5th floor. So they seem to have a lot of units for sale. Maybe one will be available in December. Maybe we should look for desperate seller then.


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## Berubeland

There is pretty much always a unit for sale. There are 180 units between both buildings so someone will statistically always be moving.


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> There is pretty much always a unit for sale. There are 180 units between both buildings so someone will statistically always be moving.


That's good to know.


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## Rob_23

Berubeland said:


> The condo was on the market for $79,000.
> 
> Also for those who don't like Scarberia it is listed as the #1 section of Toronto that will increase in value as predicted by the Real Estate Investment Network.


Berubeland - That does make a lot of sence. Mississauga/Oakville is the same distance from DT and is extremely expensive. It will take a wile but I can see it happening. I take Hwy 2 home daily from DT for the past two years now and in that short time I have been seeing the "it" places to live expanding. Also I stopped buy a new development east of Gerrard and Main St. and I couldn't believe how much they wanted for something the same size as a 1 Bed condo right in the DT core. They were calling it the "Upper Beaches". Theirs also a lot of houses getting flipped from that area and passed Birchmount for some big bucks. So all good signs if your looking in that area, but also makes sense the rest will increase too.

What do you think about Oshawa? Taxsaver can get a fully detached bungalow in south Oshawa from $100K or less. Things in that area look like they will definitely be going up with GM getting Cadillac soon, Darlington getting 2 new reactors in a few years, UOIT expanding more and more in the south-end (I know my dad is quoting a few new buildings for them). It is a little seedy like parts of Scarbrough but has no way to go but up it seems?


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## Taxsaver

A cheap one in Oshawa at $82K.

http://www.homefinder.ca/listing/details/E1806393/79-banting-ave-oshawa-ontario

A listing here:

http://www.homefinder.ca/search/cit...order=price_low_to_high&page=2&sr_type=resale

I would need a car to commute to work in Toronto (Victoria Park and Steeles East).

I'm seeing others at over $100,000, but they have at least two bedrooms and at least two bathrooms, so I could rent out parts of the house.

I've read it's better live in North rather than South Oshawa.


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## the-royal-mail

If you're going to buy there, first attempt to do the rush hour trip into the city during the week. Then try to get back there at 5PM and see how long it takes. Do that for 5 days and see how you feel after that. During rush hour, the highways into the GTA are all jammed with cars, most of them focused on the radio, cell phones and rubbernecking anything at all (accidents, etc). Approach this very carefully.

Also, I realize I might be a bit paranoid but I would be a bit worried if something should ever happen (a la Chernobyl) at Pickering or Darlington. 

Just my opinion, which I realize many will disagree with.


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## georgep

Thanks for the input guys. I am planning on investing on foreclosed accounts soon and townhouses are what I like to get in to. Would be coming back for more tips here.


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## Taxsaver

Good suggestions, Royal. I was thinking about a nuclear leak as well. No, you're not paranoid.


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## Potato

the-royal-mail said:


> Also, I realize I might be a bit paranoid but I would be a bit worried if something should ever happen (a la Chernobyl) at Pickering or Darlington.





Taxsaver said:


> Good suggestions, Royal. I was thinking about a nuclear leak as well. No, you're not paranoid.



Yes, you're paranoid. Canadian reactors are designed to not have an "a la Chernobyl" failure mode. We spent billions on MAPLE 1 & 2 yet abandoned them because their design turned out to have this potential risk.

That's not to say that there can't be a nuclear accident: a tritium release into the lake or groundwater is the most likely failure mode there. It's not good, but it's a long, long way from a Chernobyl-like event. 

Plus, the commute would kill you long before the radiation does (we take it for granted in society, but don't forget how deadly driving in a car really is!).


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## Berubeland

I managed a property in south Oshawa and it was very challenging to find decent tenants. When i told them the location they'd tell me that they wouldn't even consider it. 

It was difficult to find any working people for that place it was mostly single moms on OW. 

I had zero evictions in three years until i went to manage that place. 

I do think that Oshawa will go up in value. It is a pocket of affordability and pretty close to downtown. If you look at the MLS map and grow it you will see that it is surrounded by more expensive towns. 

I also think Scarborough will go up in value. There are some exceptionally nice homes here south of Kingston Road in very nice neighborhoods for good value compared to other similar quality areas. The other thing I really like about Scarborough is that the lots here are nice and big. This is a personal preference thing but I come from up north and growing up the closest neighbour was 2 km away.


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## the-royal-mail

Great discussion, thanks potato and berube! And thanks taxsaver for taking my comments the right way. I think you know I'm like everyone else, here to help.

So true about the risk of driving a car in that GTA traffic. I saw my life flash before my eyes many times in that he-l. Lesson learned and if I can save anyone else from enduring what I had to, that is great. Life is too short to do the GTA hamster wheel thing.


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## Rob_23

South Oshawa can be pretty sketchy but no worse than the areas in Scarbrough you were looking at. But 100K, you get what you pay for. I would stick to the east/west side and avoid the center core. 

Your all right though the drive wouldn't be fun, it would add another 45-60 min in traffic to my current drive home. But I can't stop thinking about the protential for prices to go up. With GM getting Cadillac in 2012, UOIT expanding into the downtown area and Darlington getting 2 new reactors in the future. Just one area in the GTA that can only go up!

I've lived in Pickering my whole life and the nuke plant isn't any ones concern who lives here. I always find it funny when I say I from here and someone makes some bad joke about the plant, and I have to think twice to realize what they're even talking about. You don't even know it's there unless you live beside it. The only thing turning "green" is me, with envy, of people who work there and the $ they bring home.


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## Berubeland

Rob I'm sorry to disagree with you here but Midland and Eglinton is a far different animal than South Oshawa. I say this because I have rented in both places. The condo is in an older but really decent building. I have rented that apartment for over 5 years now and the building is quiet.


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## the-royal-mail

Not only that, but when the economy eventually improves, people get back to work and the price of gas spikes to $1.50 a litre again, commuters will be suffering and regretting locating themselves far from work.

When I lived in the GTA, I found a beautiful condo that was 2KM from work. No more fooling around with rush hour traffic. If you work in the GTA IMO that is the best option. Never mind trying to 'get away' from the city. You're not getting away from anything (except a good life) if you're spending 4 hours a day in your car looking at bumpers and brake lights.


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## Taxsaver

the-royal-mail said:


> If you work in the GTA IMO that is the best option. Never mind trying to 'get away' from the city. You're not getting away from anything (except a good life) if you're spending 4 hours a day in your car looking at bumpers and brake lights.


This description makes me sick to my stomach.  Unless I find a job in Oshawa, I think I will stay in Toronto, after all. But what are the chances that I find a job in Oshawa if I'm not even looking for one? Does it come down to first choose where you want to live and THEN find a job in or close to it?


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## the-royal-mail

No, job comes first. Then try to find housing that satisfies you as close to work as humanly possible. In Miss when I was looking, for example, ALL of the residences had work places nearby, so I thought, if everyone lived very close to work, then traffic would be down in the GTA about 75% lol. Even a bldg 10KM from work in Miss was easily 30 minutes during rush hour.

The other thing is to be careful not to locate yourself on the other side of a mall area, from where you work. Try to be on the same side.

In fact, for a few years I even WALKED to work since it was so close. Great exercise, saved thousands of $$$ per year not having to buy a car. Half hour walk home, far better than 3 hours a day in the car.


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## Sherlock

I'm confused, this guy has only $4000 to his name and you guys are recommending that he buys his own house? In Toronto?  Are you insane?

I think you shouldn't buy anything. Consider the facts:

1) You're young. Who knows how long you'll stay at your current job. If you see a good potential job in another city, you don't want to be tied to a house so you can't take it. You want to remain as mobile as possible until your career stabilizes.

2) Any condo you buy will come with $300-400 of maintenance costs so it's not much better than renting.

3) It seems you can only afford the very worst properties at this point in your life. I would keep renting until you can afford a nice place in a nice neighborhood, even if that means renting for the next 10 years. Buying property in a bad neighborhood is rarely a good idea.

4) Houses in the GTA are greatly overvalued currently, and are entering a phase of real estate correction which will likely last until about 2015. We've seen the number of listings start to go way up the last 2 months.

5) Over the next 5 years a million boomers will be retiring, who will likely downgrade or sell their houses especially if they now live in the GTA, so that help will make it a buyer's market.

Keep renting and save as much as you can then when you have about $50k saved up buy something nice.


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## Taxsaver

Sherlock said:


> I'm confused, this guy has only $4000 to his name and you guys are recommending that he buys his own house? In Toronto?  Are you insane?
> 
> I think you shouldn't buy anything. Consider the facts:
> 
> 1) You're young. Who knows how long you'll stay at your current job. If you see a good potential job in another city, you don't want to be tied to a house so you can't take it. You want to remain as mobile as possible until your career stabilizes.
> 
> 2) Any condo you buy will come with $300-400 of maintenance costs so it's not much better than renting.
> 
> 3) It seems you can only afford the very worst properties at this point in your life. I would keep renting until you can afford a nice place in a nice neighborhood, even if that means renting for the next 10 years. Buying property in a bad neighborhood is rarely a good idea.
> 
> 4) Houses in the GTA are greatly overvalued currently, and are entering a phase of real estate correction which will likely last until about 2015. We've seen the number of listings start to go way up the last 2 months.
> 
> 5) Over the next 5 years a million boomers will be retiring, who will likely downgrade or sell their houses especially if they now live in the GTA, so that help will make it a buyer's market.
> 
> Keep renting and save as much as you can then when you have about $50k saved up buy something nice.


I`m following the general concesus on this board: I aborted my purchase project at this time. I will re-evaluate the situation next December when I have about $13,000 available. People know that only I can make a decision, so they kept giving me advice JUST IN CASE I do buy something.


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## Rob_23

the royal mail - I guess that's the difference for me I don't have a set location for my job. I travel around to where the job is, I have just been lucky enough to be going downtown for the past 2 years. So for me the drive can be short or long no matter where I live.

And Sherlock is right. I was just throwing ideas out there. Buying a place in Oshawa is still in the back of my mind. Basically a first time home buyer is going to need to be able to afford/get approved for a 300-400k mortgage to live in a decent place.

But the outlook for the RE market looks like it might be going down so, I guess I will wait it out a bit before I jump in...


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## Berubeland

Sherlock, 

I entirely disagree with your take on the subject. 

Here's why. 

1 - The condo in question is likely better than any rental building

2 - The cost of mortgage, maintenance fees and everything required is equivalent to the exact same rent Taxsaver is paying now. Plus he'd be building equity. 

3 - I am familiar with the building and have been for the last 5 years. I have rented an apartment there and gotten feedback from the existing tenants that the building is decent. 

4 - The apartment could definitely use some improvement. This would be a very viable way for Taxsaver to add even more value to this condo. Another condo that is renovated is on the market for $130,000 it is also a one bedroom. 

5 - When you look for places that are undervalued in the real estate market you can find them. A while back I had seen a Condo at Kennedy and Eglinton, a number of them were for sale for $75,000 right next to the Subway. Two years later they are selling for $120,000. 

At worse in this building the prices will stay stable. At best he is looking at a very decent return.


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> Sherlock,
> 
> I entirely disagree with your take on the subject.
> 
> Here's why.
> 
> 1 - The condo in question is likely better than any rental building
> 
> 2 - The cost of mortgage, maintenance fees and everything required is equivalent to the exact same rent Taxsaver is paying now. Plus he'd be building equity.
> 
> 3 - I am familiar with the building and have been for the last 5 years. I have rented an apartment there and gotten feedback from the existing tenants that the building is decent.
> 
> 4 - The apartment could definitely use some improvement. This would be a very viable way for Taxsaver to add even more value to this condo. Another condo that is renovated is on the market for $130,000 it is also a one bedroom.
> 
> 5 - When you look for places that are undervalued in the real estate market you can find them. A while back I had seen a Condo at Kennedy and Eglinton, a number of them were for sale for $75,000 right next to the Subway. Two years later they are selling for $120,000.
> 
> At worse in this building the prices will stay stable. At best he is looking at a very decent return.


Because of all those points above, this condo unit is still in the back of my mind.


----------



## Sherlock

Berubeland said:


> Here's another example.... and this one is brand newish and the maintenance fees are reasonable.
> 
> http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=8839476
> 
> The area is not great again but... no worse than John Garland.


That's actually a good deal, a newer townhouse for 130k. Even has its own private garage. I would jump on that if it was closer to work.

Edit: My mistake, it seems that one doesn't come with a garage. A unit with a garage is 155k: http://www.homefinder.ca/listing/details/E1856849/200-mclevin-ave-toronto-ontario


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## Taxsaver

Sherlock said:


> That's actually a good deal, a newer townhouse for 130k. Even has its own private garage. I would jump on that if it was closer to work.
> 
> Edit: My mistake, it seems that one doesn't come with a garage. A unit with a garage is 155k: http://www.homefinder.ca/listing/details/E1856849/200-mclevin-ave-toronto-ontario


Just proves that you should never 'jump' on a deal without checking all the information.


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## Taxsaver

It's off market now...

http://www.teamkassen.com/4a_listin...property_type=0&status_default=354&status=354


----------

