# Any former or current dentists here?



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Or others who have thoughts on polishing and flouride Treatments that’s dentists offer. I’m beginning to think these are just unnecessary cross-sells?


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

Insurance will pay for it. So it is performed and billed for. 

I can recall as a kid you saw the dentist twice a year.
I have to presume that now insurance would cover three times a year, and guess how often we see the dentist these days?

On Broadway in the 50's or so, the AFM had established the minimum size of the orchestra.
Guess what the arrangers were told by the producers as to the the maximum number of orchestra parts that were to be arranged for?


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

It is a massive scam that dentistry is a separate system from medical and that 90% of it is cosmetic, but somehow still seen as an essential service that people can't live without, going so far to seek employment opportunities with good dental benefits.

There should be 1/10th the number of dentists that there are, and they should just be a branch of the medical system doing emergency work and treatment of serious mouth problems.

They are just scamming consumers and insurance companies for now. Soon they'll be scamming the taxpayer, too.


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

Today my friend told me the Hyundai auto dealer wanted $135 to plug in a code reader, when the initial complaint is a check engine light.

My wife and I both went to the dentist last tues. She was in the chair for 40 minutes . plaque removal, checkup, flouride.
I was in the chair after her for probably longer and I also had xrays. Everything was done by the dentist. Total bill for us both. 323.40. (I paid the full amount - no insurance company involved)

Other procedures can be expensive I know, but I'm not going to complain about a professional, highly educated business person maintaining an office, receptionsist, plus two hygenists charging us $323. I think the flouride was 20 each. Probably optional if you don't want to pay, don't go.

ADDED - PS -polishing was not done. Not allowed b/c of c19 protocols.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I would like to go for a routine dental cleaning, but have been hesitant to due to COVID. Routine cleanings are definitely a good idea as they prevent the buildup of plaque and can help keep the teeth & gums in good shape. It's preventative healthcare.

@Retiredguy how risky did the visit seem to you? I am thinking of what you describe... cleaning and maybe x-rays


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

james4beach said:


> I would like to go for a routine dental cleaning, but have been hesitant to due to COVID. Routine cleanings are definitely a good idea as they prevent the buildup of plaque and can help keep the teeth & gums in good shape. It's preventative healthcare.
> 
> @Retiredguy how risky did the visit seem to you? I am thinking of what you describe... cleaning and maybe x-rays


 When I first got in the chair I was given something to swirl for 30 seconds, which was formally timed not approximated and I was told would kill any C19. The dentist was fully geared up double mask and face shield and gloves of course. As was the hygienist/assistant who did the xray and the receptionist was masked. The reception area was restricted to 2 people for distancing and some chairs had been removed. When making the appts about a month ago our health was canvassed and when we attended the office we were given a written health questionnaire with some yes/no questions directly related to c19. We're healthy in our late 60"s. Everything was fine and we were not in the least concerned about contracting anything. For us it all was no bother.

We've been going to this dentist for 30 yrs. I asked him how they were coping and surprisingly he said they were only totally shut down for 2.5 months and has been back since mid June. He said when they first came back protocols were extremely strict with all PPE being changed after each patient but the protocols have been relaxed/amended somewhat since then. He also expressed appreciation about the govt subsidy's for his staff during the shut down. I don't know weather he got anything for the business, rent etc.

ADDED; Of course we arrived masked until it was removed once in the chair and I re masked before leaving the chair.


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## hfp75 (Mar 15, 2018)

Just went for a cleaning & filling - no prob, ill stop @ 7-11 and get lottos, so why not the dentist ? At the dentist they all have wear a ton of ppe....


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Retiredguy said:


> We're healthy in our late 60"s. Everything was fine and we were not in the least concerned about contracting anything. For us it all was no bother.


Thanks for the info on this.

A complication for me is that I moved, so I'm new in this city and don't have a dentist. I'm not looking forward to finding a new dentist ... and I really want to keep it simple to start with, just want a cleaning, NO dental work.

I find it stressful creating a new relationship with dentists. Many dentists want to do all kinds of extra work in borderline situations (it's a judgement call). Especially with covid, I really don't want to start doing potentially unnecessary dental procedures.

I'm scared of meeting a new dentist, because some of them are pushy and try to make extra money by pushing [sometimes unnecessary] dental work.


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## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

peterk said:


> It is a massive scam that dentistry is a separate system from medical and that 90% of it is cosmetic, but somehow still seen as an essential service that people can't live without, going so far to seek employment opportunities with good dental benefits.
> 
> There should be 1/10th the number of dentists that there are, and they should just be a branch of the medical system doing emergency work and treatment of serious mouth problems.
> 
> They are just scamming consumers and insurance companies for now. Soon they'll be scamming the taxpayer, too.


What an idiotic comment painting all of us and our profession with one broad stroke. Tell the people in pain and discomfort that I help each and every day that it's a scam. I don't think 1% of the procedures I do are cosmetic and with all the **** I have to deal with every day I wish it was higher to at least get a chance to create some beauty and express the artistic side of the art and science of dentistry. I live in central BC and if you are in a big city, where I am is a far cry from that. It is true that I have seen stuff that comes out of the oversaturated highly competitive large urban centres that makes me shake my head, but those few bad apples doing that are not representative of all of us. I have been a dentist for almost 30 years now and will retire from practice in three months. There were nine of us GPs in town when I arrived and when I leave, there will be seven to serve an area with 25000 or so. It has been crazy busy since last year, despite Covid, dealing with real problems, issues, and neglect. It will get worse for the remaining practitioners after I'm gone.


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## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Thanks for the info on this.
> 
> A complication for me is that I moved, so I'm new in this city and don't have a dentist. I'm not looking forward to finding a new dentist ... and I really want to keep it simple to start with, just want a cleaning, NO dental work.
> 
> ...


If all you want is a cleaning and an exam, then all you have to do is tell the dentist. You do have a say as it is your mouth and your money.If they say you need something, ask them to show you what it is where it is and how bad it is. That is what I do with my patients, and if it really needs to be done, it is obvious. Also, don't look for a dentist from a billboard ad or a flashy yellow page ad. Ask friends and acquaintances you have in the area for their recommendations. Like the other guy I responded to before, you are stressing yourself out because you are assuming that you are going to get scammed no matter what so that is something you need to work out. Based on your past experience, maybe you are justified in your feelings regarding that. But I don't operate that way.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Or others who have thoughts on polishing and flouride Treatments that’s dentists offer. I’m beginning to think these are just unnecessary cross-sells?


 I'm also curious about it!



> Insurance will pay for it. So it is performed and billed for.
> I can recall as a kid you saw the dentist twice a year.
> I have to presume that now insurance would cover three times a year, and guess how often we see the dentist these days?


It depends on insurance ... before we had this covered even 4 times a year , it was covered 100% and no deductions from the salary, but our new insurance is awful and they cover only twice per year with much lesser limit and scaling covered only at 50% (even though they deduct several thousands from salary). Canadian big banks have inferior dental/medical benefits. We even think to cancel dental benefits at all.



> They are just scamming consumers and insurance companies for now


 You have a point! Our dentist will charge you depending on your insurance coverage...If you don't have insurance and pay cash, it would be much cheaper..


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## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

In 30 years I have never seen a dental plan that covered more than two checkups per year. The six month checkup that was touted when I was a kid is barely the norm anymore, with every nine or twelve months becoming more and more common. Benefits paid out by insurance companies are decreasing in scope and frequency, not increasing, while premiums are ever going up, as has been their modus operandi forever.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

diharv said:


> In 30 years I have never seen a dental plan that covered more than two checkups per year. The six month checkup that was touted when I was a kid is barely the norm anymore, with every nine or twelve months becoming more and more common. Benefits paid out by insurance companies are decreasing in scope and frequency, not increasing, while premiums are ever going up, as has been their modus operandi forever.


Not talking about check up, but about cleaning, scaling, polishing etc... With my previous insurance it was covered every 3 months, with current every 6 months with limitations.
Maybe "Benefits paid out by insurance companies are decreasing in scope and frequency, not increasing, while premiums are ever going up" because dentists are abusing them? Dentist will always submit maximum possible claim for a specific treatment, even though it cost much less (this is why if I pay cash w/o insurance, I gonna pay at least 30% less)


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

diharv said:


> If all you want is a cleaning and an exam, then all you have to do is tell the dentist. You do have a say as it is your mouth and your money.If they say you need something, ask them to show you what it is where it is and how bad it is. That is what I do with my patients, and if it really needs to be done, it is obvious. Also, don't look for a dentist from a billboard ad or a flashy yellow page ad. Ask friends and acquaintances you have in the area for their recommendations. Like the other guy I responded to before, you are stressing yourself out because you are assuming that you are going to get scammed no matter what so that is something you need to work out. Based on your past experience, maybe you are justified in your feelings regarding that. But I don't operate that way.


Thanks, I appreciate these notes. I was wondering how to find a dentist... I will ask around, but unfortunately I don't know too many people in this immediate area. Perhaps I will ask some neighbours.

You make some good points. I may be causing myself the stress based on a fear, for something that I can avoid with some clear communication with the dentist.

To be very clear... I absolutely think that a good dentist is worth their weight in gold, and dental care & preventative work is extremely important for health. My last dentist in the US was phenomenal, but it took me many years to find her. We had a great rapport.

@diharv in case you have a moment, I'm also curious what you might have to say about "coverage". I've never really had any dental coverage (even when employed in the US) so I always pay out of pocket, cash & credit card. But in the US, I found a program that wasn't insurance, but more like a club where you got a membership, and then dentists in the network gave reduced rates. It was quite nice.

Like you, I'm in BC. Do you know of any such programs like this which can reduce the rates paid for the basic services (cleaning, polish, fluoride, x-rays)?


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Retiredguy said:


> Today my friend told me the Hyundai auto dealer wanted $135 to plug in a code reader, when the initial complaint is a check engine light.
> 
> My wife and I both went to the dentist last tues. She was in the chair for 40 minutes . plaque removal, checkup, flouride.
> I was in the chair after her for probably longer and I also had xrays. Everything was done by the dentist. Total bill for us both. 323.40. (I paid the full amount - no insurance company involved)
> ...


Good price. I had scaling and flouride for $220. No recall exam, no xray, no polishing. I’m guessing the “traditional” service of scaling, fluoride, polishing, recall exam would be close to $600 for two people.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

james4beach said:


> I would like to go for a routine dental cleaning, but have been hesitant to due to COVID. Routine cleanings are definitely a good idea as they prevent the buildup of plaque and can help keep the teeth & gums in good shape. It's preventative healthcare.
> 
> @Retiredguy how risky did the visit seem to you? I am thinking of what you describe... cleaning and maybe x-rays


I’ve been twice since covid started. Had wisdom teeth out, and then for a cleaning. Each of my dentist‘s patient rooms are covered in plastic doors to keep droplets contained. They run filters in each room and claim to do some sophisticated cleaning over night.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Thanks for the info on this.
> 
> A complication for me is that I moved, so I'm new in this city and don't have a dentist. I'm not looking forward to finding a new dentist ... and I really want to keep it simple to start with, just want a cleaning, NO dental work.
> 
> ...


To add, my dentist also takes your temperature and oxygen levels when you enter. Only two people allowed in the waiting room.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

diharv said:


> If all you want is a cleaning and an exam, then all you have to do is tell the dentist. You do have a say as it is your mouth and your money.If they say you need something, ask them to show you what it is where it is and how bad it is. That is what I do with my patients, and if it really needs to be done, it is obvious. Also, don't look for a dentist from a billboard ad or a flashy yellow page ad. Ask friends and acquaintances you have in the area for their recommendations. Like the other guy I responded to before, you are stressing yourself out because you are assuming that you are going to get scammed no matter what so that is something you need to work out. Based on your past experience, maybe you are justified in your feelings regarding that. But I don't operate that way.


Can you comment on polishing and flouride treatment? Are they cosmetic or required. by my math, those services would add almost $1000 annually to my families bill. And how often should most people go? I don’t have insurance anymore so I‘m paying more attention.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Money172375 said:


> Can you comment on polishing and flouride treatment? Are they cosmetic or required.


I am not a dentist, so I am only relaying what I heard from two dentists I trust. Not a professional opinion of mine.

They believe that fluoride treatment is helpful. It's something that's usually thought of as a kids thing, but fluoride is known to actually strengthen and protect enamel (defend against decay). It helps prevent decay in adult teeth as well. The amounts of fluoride in standard toothpaste are really too small to do anything. But those gel fluoride treatments that are applied to teeth are significantly stronger.

I believe it's worth having the treatment once or twice a year. If you really don't want to do the fluoride treatment, also take a look at your Rexall store because in there, I found "Prevident" in the toothpaste aisle, which is a high fluoride concentration toothpaste. This has significantly more fluoride than a standard toothpaste, and can be used to get more fluoride onto your teeth. It's definitely cheaper than the in-office fluoride treatment, but I have no idea if it's equivalent.

I've also met dentists who think that fluoride treatments are unnecessary, though.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

diharv said:


> What an idiotic comment painting all of us and our profession with one broad stroke. Tell the people in pain and discomfort that I help each and every day that it's a scam. I don't think 1% of the procedures I do are cosmetic and with all the **** I have to deal with every day I wish it was higher to at least get a chance to create some beauty and express the artistic side of the art and science of dentistry. I live in central BC and if you are in a big city, where I am is a far cry from that. It is true that I have seen stuff that comes out of the oversaturated highly competitive large urban centres that makes me shake my head, but those few bad apples doing that are not representative of all of us. I have been a dentist for almost 30 years now and will retire from practice in three months. There were nine of us GPs in town when I arrived and when I leave, there will be seven to serve an area with 25000 or so. It has been crazy busy since last year, despite Covid, dealing with real problems, issues, and neglect. It will get worse for the remaining practitioners after I'm gone.


Touchy.

By cosmetic I did not mean veneers... I meant regularly scheduled cleanings and x-rays and fluoride rinses and scalings and polishing. All with no negative health prognosis or medical indications that these things are in any way necessary or repairative, and at $600 a pop every 9 to 12 months.

The vast majority of dental revenue comes from these things (not to mentioned braces and extractions in children that are also highly questionable)

"Preventative healthcare" James? Who told you that? Would you let your family Dr. enter your body with tools and x-ray your head once per year, forever, when you have absolutely no ailment or concern? This is not what a medical "checkup" entails and if you asked your Dr. to have it done on you, especially over and over again, he'd probably refuse the first time, and definitely the 2nd time.

Hopefully Diharv is doing the 10% medically necessary dental work (which should be folded into the medical system for insurance and government providing) and not the 90% of unproven mouth interventions and cosmetic. I wonder what the total revenue breakdown for all dental charges in Canada are. Would be interesting to see...


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

While on the topic, has including basic dental and eye care into provincial health care plans ever been discussed. I haven’t looked into into, but they both seem like basic health requirements. I know eye exams are covered for kids, but there is still the cost of glasses. Could a $200-$500 annual limit per person be workable? Do other countries cover these health items? Or is pharmacare first to happen?


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Money172375 said:


> Or others who have thoughts on polishing and flouride Treatments that’s dentists offer. I’m beginning to think these are just unnecessary cross-sells?


I have never been offered polishing or fluoride. Not sure what they cost or if they are of any value.

All I have ever had since I was a kid was an occasional cleaning. As a kid in Toronto, I had 4 alleged cavities filled. After moving back to Vancouver where I was born, I started seeing a dentist. He asked me about my fillings. I told him about my Toronto dentist when I was a kid and, of course, my parents would have told him to do the work if he said so. They trusted doctors and dentists as near gods. So, my Vancouver dentist said "I would like to have seen the x-rays." I asked what he meant, and he replied: "Teeth like yours don't get cavities." So, what should I think? 

Here in BC, 12 years ago, I had a bit of tooth pain. I went to a dentist who said I had some kind of infection under or around a wisdom tooth. None of my wisdom teeth ever really came in. They used to cause me some teething pain every once in awhile until I was early 20s, then never heard from them again.

Anyway, my local dentist said he'd give me an antibiotic to clear up the infection. He said I should have the tooth out, since the infection would return. He said, in fact, I should have 'em all out for good measure. Go see my oral surgeon friend in another city. So, I went. The surgeon said, sure, we can drill and blast and blow those puppies out of there. Come back in 3 weeks with $1,900 in your jeans and all will be good. 

So, I went home. No more pain by then, the antibiotic had done its job in a few days. I did some online reading about wisdom tooth extraction and how it can lead to a world of complications, hurt and regret. So, I chickened out. 12 years have passed, sans problems. I did not go back to my local dentist, since I did not want to be lectured like a wayward child for not doing what I was told. Come to think of it, I have not been to any dentist since. 

Annual cleaning was okay in the old days, when the dentist used scraping tools and what I think was like a drill attachment with a rotating buffer on it. I cannot manage what now seems to be the order of the day (well, 12 years ago anyway), where a hygienist does most of the work with a power washer that fills up one's mouth with water and it starts running down one's throat making you want to woof your cookies. The whole endeavour is one prolonged gagging experience. Ugh. Too scary to face that ignominy at my age. I might be willing under general anaesthetic.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Mukhang pera said:


> I have never been offered polishing or fluoride. Not sure what they cost or if they are of any value.
> 
> All I have ever had since I was a kid was an occasional cleaning. As a kid in Toronto, I had 4 alleged cavities filled. After moving back to Vancouver where I was born, I started seeing a dentist. He asked me about my fillings. I told him about my Toronto dentist when I was a kid and, of course, my parents would have told him to do the work if he said so. They trusted doctors and dentists as near gods. So, my Vancouver dentist said "I would like to have seen the x-rays." I asked what he meant, and he replied: "Teeth like yours don't get cavities." So, what should I think?
> 
> ...


The rotating buffer is likely the “polishing” I’m referring too. Very commonplace in the past, but seems to have fallen from favour.

I was told to have my wisdom teeth out 25 years ago. Was too afraid. Like you, had occasional discomfort. My father in law had awful pain last summer during lockdown. Dentist refused to remove his wisdom teeth as it’s gets more complicated as you age. The roots become very long, there’s also an important nerve along your jawline. In any event, his ordeal prompted me to get mine removed. Almost $3,000. Fully sedated. Recovery was better than I thought it would be. Wished I would have done it 20 years ago.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

peterk said:


> "Preventative healthcare" James? Who told you that? Would you let your family Dr. enter your body with tools and x-ray your head once per year, forever, when you have absolutely no ailment or concern


I avoid x-rays and make sure they are only done every 5 years or so. I don't let them happen more often than that.

But yes I think cleaning is preventative


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## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Thanks, I appreciate these notes. I was wondering how to find a dentist... I will ask around, but unfortunately I don't know too many people in this immediate area. Perhaps I will ask some neighbours.
> 
> You make some good points. I may be causing myself the stress based on a fear, for something that I can avoid with some clear communication with the dentist.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are talking about a dental HMO. I have not heard of any such networks in Canada. The advice I give to patients who ask about getting coverage on their own because they have no workplace benefits is if they are in good dental health and are basically just maintaining the status quo, is to just pay out of pocket for a routine exam and cleaning and come once per year. If they have more buildup, then more frequently but no exam every time unless something bothering them. This usually is alot cheaper than paying premiums for dental plans which are quite high. If the dental coverage is part of an extended health package and they need and use other benefits provided by that, then go for it.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I asked my dentist if the polishing does anything health-wise or if it's just cosmetic and he said it's just cosmetic. My town apparently doesn't fluoridate the water so I always take the fluoride. My dentist doesn't charge for it anyways so why not. The whole ordeal costs me $135 for a visit (including polishing, because I usually don't remember to ask them not to polish), no insurance. Can't complain too much.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

I usually get a recall exam, scaling, root planing, cleaning, polishing, and flouride every 6 months. X-rays are once per year or every other visit, though I'm starting to think this is overkill.

I was never asked whether I wanted flouride or polishing... I was led to believe it's standard. But I've been going to the same place since I was a kid. They might have asked my mom once and they've just been prescribing the same "package" ever since... lol


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

nathan79 said:


> X-rays are once per year or every other visit, though I'm starting to think this is overkill.


I don't think you should do x-rays that often. Of all the things that happen at the dental office, this is the one that has a very tangible harm to the body.

Personally I avoid x-rays unless I have something actively bothering me that needs attention. Dentists love to see them of course, because they can be useful for diagnostic info. But x-rays are harmful so the "risk vs reward" must be evaluated carefully.

I'm actually thinking of getting x-rays now, though, since I have had minimal air travel in a year, so my radiation exposure is lower than it typically is (flying in a plane gives you radiation exposure).


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Yeah, I have thought of asking them to switch to every two years, but I think they might be resistant to the idea. I have asked them a couple of times if I really needed to get X-rays again "already", and they seemed to think that I did. I've read that it's up to the individual dentist to use their disretion regardng how often X-rays should be done. There is no recommended schedule.

About 5 years ago, they wanted to do a special type of X-ray that covers the entire face. I was skeptical it was necessary, so I put it off for a few years, but they would bring it up at every appointment, so eventually I consented to have it done.

I generally defer to my dentist's expertise since both of my parents had serious dental problems. They both ended up losing about half of their teeth, so naturally I want to take every preventative measure I can.

I haven't flown since 2007, so I wonder if that offsets some of the harm from getting X-rays every year.


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> Good price. I had scaling and flouride for $220. No recall exam, no xray, no polishing. I’m guessing the “traditional” service of scaling, fluoride, polishing, recall exam would be close to $600 for two people.


Dentists have a College of Dentists fee schedule, which I understand they are not obligated to follow, but my dentist does.


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## robfordlives (Sep 18, 2014)

james4beach said:


> I avoid x-rays and make sure they are only done every 5 years or so. I don't let them happen more often than that.
> 
> But yes I think cleaning is preventative


I once had some pain in my back and went to a chiro....he said lets take some xrays. OK no problem. Go to the xray place and after about 10 I asked the tech how many more there would be. She says yea that chiro goes overboard on the xrays but not too many more. I think there were 10 more in fact....I really regret not walking out of there. Anyways he then wanted $3000 up front to address my issue. No thanks. Ended up finding a youtube daily stretching routine and my back has been 100% for nearly a decade now. I often wonder what kind of permanent damage those xrays have done though

In terms of dental I go 2X per year as covered by work but when retired will scale back to every 9 months as a compromise between that and annual. I switched to a Sonicare about a year ago and both my dentist and hygenist highly recommend it to everyone


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