# How to buy Bitcoin without getting ripped off?



## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

I have been trying to buy Bitcoin recently and not having any luck.

The problem is that all the major banks and credit card companies now seem to be blocking Bitcoin transactions.
In the last 2 weeks, I have tried with my Bank of Montreal card as well as Scotiabank card and they both blocked it.
Upon calling, they confirmed that all Bitcoin transactions will be blocked, no matter how small.
TD is also blocking.

So buying through a bank issued credit/debit card is out.

The only way I have been able to find is using Bitcoin ATM machines.
I did manage to buy a small amount from an ATM, but the problem is that their spreads and commissions are massive...total rip off.

so like yesterday 1 BTC was about $11,650 CAD in the afternoon but Bitcoin ATMs were quoting almost $12,900...that is about 10% higher than market price.
It is a total rip off.

I have heard there are P2P exchanges in Canada where you send someone a wire transfer or Interac transfer and your wallet ID and they are supposed to send you BTC.
But it sounds very risky.

so my question - how are BTC traders here buying BTC using Canadian $$?

thanks in advance.


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## jdc (Feb 1, 2016)

SixesAndSevens said:


> I have been trying to buy Bitcoin recently and not having any luck.
> 
> The problem is that all the major banks and credit card companies now seem to be blocking Bitcoin transactions.
> In the last 2 weeks, I have tried with my Bank of Montreal card as well as Scotiabank card and they both blocked it.
> ...


Before you do anything, get a hardware wallet from Ledger or Trezor. Do not leave your bitcoin on exchanges after you have purchased them.

Have a look at shakepay.io for easy BTC or ETH buys with interac e-transfer.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm not aware of any legitimate gateway in Canada to buy & sell bitcoin. The last popular Canadian exchange turned out to be a massive scam, where hundreds of millions $ of customer money was lost (I'd say stolen).

So I think the banks are blocking those transactions for a justifiable reason


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

jdc said:


> Before you do anything, get a hardware wallet from Ledger or Trezor. Do not leave your bitcoin on exchanges after you have purchased them.


yes, agreed...thanks for the reminder.
I do plan to obtain a cold wallet to store the coins.
for now, I have a small fraction of a BTC stored in my Coinbase wallet, which I will transfer out as soon as possible.



> Have a look at shakepay.io for easy BTC or ETH buys with interac e-transfer.


thank you...I was not aware of this portal.
I also found Coinsquare.
they seem to be charging 0.2% trading fee.
how does Coinsquare stack up against shakepay?

thanks.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

How do we know those ^ things aren't scams? The track record for these kinds of services is really bad.


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## jdc (Feb 1, 2016)

SixesAndSevens said:


> thank you...I was not aware of this portal.
> I also found Coinsquare.
> they seem to be charging 0.2% trading fee.
> how does Coinsquare stack up against shakepay?
> ...


I've used Shakepay, it was a good experience, would recommend. No experience with Coinsquare.

... but, as previously mentioned, transfer your crypto to your own hardware wallet immediately after purchasing, or you risk losing it all.

See other comments about Shakepay on reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinCA/search/?q=shakepay&restrict_sr=1


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

james4beach said:


> How do we know those ^ things aren't scams? The track record for these kinds of services is really bad.


as I said above, as suggested by jdc, I will be transferring out all my BTC soon after purchase to a private cold wallet.
I am still evaluating which cold wallet to get.
I won't be leaving any coins with the exchange, so it won't matter if it is a scam or not.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

SixesAndSevens said:


> as I said above, as suggested by jdc, I will be transferring out all my BTC soon after purchase to a private cold wallet.
> I am still evaluating which cold wallet to get.
> I won't be leaving any coins with the exchange, so it won't matter if it is a scam or not.


And then what happens when you want to sell them? How do you execute that trade and get cash in the end, without doing business with one of these shady operators?


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

james4beach said:


> And then what happens when you want to sell them? How do you execute that trade and get cash in the end, without doing business with one of these shady operators?


i am sorry but you are displaying your ignorance of this field.
and here i thought I am the newbie...

your "knowledge" of bitcoin world is dated to around 2014....a lot has changed since then and sounds like you simply have blinders on...

both shakepay and coinsquare are regulated by FINTRAC and AMF.

to answer your specific question, once you have sold the BTCs, you can withdraw the proceeds in CAD via direct deposit to any Canadian bank, Interac payment or wire transfer.


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

james4beach said:


> How do we know those ^ things aren't scams? The track record for these kinds of services is really bad.


you keep saying BTC is a scam and all exchanges and firm that deal with BTC are a scam...
pray explain how BTC is a scam, yet the stock of Blue Apron, FIT Bit and GOPRO are not?

you accuse bitcoin of being a scam, yet you are happy to buy the stock of Blue Apron, Lyft, Zynga, King Digital, Zillow, Pintrest, Snap Chat and so on all day long....

people bought these things at the highs and are now down 80% to 90% and not a peep from SEC, DOJ and our OSC.

but hey, keep telling yourself that Bitcoin is a scam...and keep buying Lyft, Zynga & Blue Apron...

I am sure you are drooling all over the IPO of WeWork...


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

jdc said:


> I've used Shakepay, it was a good experience, would recommend. No experience with Coinsquare.


hey jdc, thanks a lot for directing me to Shakepay.
this is exactly what I was looking for...
they accept Interac payments in & out without any fees....

i could not believe their trading fees are 0.75%.
this is awesome after having experience of Coinbase, which charges 3.9% and the ATMs that charge 10%

thanks a lot. truly appreciate your help.

one more question : do you recommend Trezor as the best cold wallet?

thanks.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Marina posts here, has used crypto's successfully, but its the currency of choice for the online activities she's involved in.

EPS also posts, speculative junior cos that have a chance of good gains due to business success.

But bitcoin - what drives the price of bitcoin? Is it just a market of speculators and others hoping that it 'goes somewhere' in the longer term?
Who are the principal owners (shareholders) of the bitcoin that exists, and what are their intentions? 

https://www.newsbtc.com/2019/05/31/...nt-in-hours-has-the-big-btc-pullback-started/


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## jdc (Feb 1, 2016)

SixesAndSevens said:


> hey jdc, thanks a lot for directing me to Shakepay.
> this is exactly what I was looking for...
> they accept Interac payments in & out without any fees....
> 
> ...


The fees are 0.75% but note that you are not really buying it on an exchange from some other seller, you are quoted a price and transacting with Shakepay or Coinbase directly. They are not "true" exchanges where you buy and sell from others using bid or ask limits. It is an easy way to buy and sell BTC, but you should satisfy yourself that the quoted price is close to the "market" price at any given time.

I haven't used Trezor but I've heard that it works well. The Ledger Nano S works good, but only for a few cryptocurrency types at a time due to memory space. Okay unless you plan on buying many types of coins. The new Ledger X model has better capacity.


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## jdc (Feb 1, 2016)

jdc said:


> I haven't used Trezor but I've heard that it works well. The Ledger Nano S works good, but only for a few cryptocurrency types at a time due to memory space. Okay unless you plan on buying many types of coins. The new Ledger X model has better capacity.


PS. If you buy a Trezor or Ledger device, buy it from a reputable source, not eBay. Preferably directly from the company. Make sure that you initialize it yourself and write down your 24 word passphrase and save the passphrase in a safe place. Make sure that you have not made an error writing down your passphrase by transferring a very small amount of BTC to the device and then reset it and restore it from the passphrase to make sure that your BTC is still there. Do this before loading larger amounts onto it. If you lose your device, you can buy a new one and use the same 24 word passphrase to set it to access your coins again.


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> https://www.newsbtc.com/2019/05/31/...nt-in-hours-has-the-big-btc-pullback-started/


i am looking for the Bloomberg article that says "_Zynga stock dumps 11 Percent in Hours, Has the Big Zynga Pullback Started?_"
funny...I couldn't find that article....


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

SixesAndSevens said:


> i am looking for the Bloomberg article that says "_Zynga stock dumps 11 Percent in Hours, Has the Big Zynga Pullback Started?_"
> funny...I couldn't find that article....


The link I provided was current btc news that seemed relevant to a bitcoin thread.

I'm afraid I don't understand the znga reference? Were you looking for this older CMF Zynga thread?
Were you suggesting that someone stupid enough to buy it initially at $9.50 only to be stuck with it for over 7 years at $3, might also be stupid enough to buy btc and get stuck with it as well...?


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Were you suggesting that someone stupid enough to buy it initially at $9.50 only to be stuck with it for over 7 years at $3, might also be stupid enough to buy btc and get stuck with it as well...?


sorry you did not understand....i was writing in a hurry...i was talking about my *post # 10 *above about media fear mongering about Bitcoin.
the media is such morons....CNBC was pumping bitcoin all through 2017 and after the bitcoin crash, Bloomberg is writing articles that it is going to crash...late to the party much?

yet not a peep from that same Bloomberg and CNBC about how investors have lost millions or billions on complete garbage stocks like Blue Apron, Zynga, Fit Bit, GO PRO and so many more.
now they are pumping more garbage like Lyft and soon We Work.
but yeah...Bitcoin is a scam...sure.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Whether the media are (not is) morons is meaningless. The question of the value of Bitcoin doesn't change whether the media are or are not morons. Whether people lost money on any stocks does or does not mean anything either. You are only talking about Bitcoin, not anything else. It is pointless to compare.

You obviously see Bitcoin as a viable investment. It is your right to believe that, just as it is someone else's right to disbelieve that. What isn't necessary is for you to attempt to defend your beliefs or change their beliefs or for them to try to attack your belief and change your belief. But it is at the same time, their right to give you their opinion when you come on here asking about how to buy Bitcoin without being ripped off. From their perspective there is NO way to buy Bitcoin without being ripped off, as they see Bitcoin itself as a rip-off for suckers. 

All I will say in regards to my own view is that Bitcoin was intended as an alternative to actual money. How's that working out for them? What it has become has nothing to do with an alternative payment method to money, it has simply become an item for speculators to buy and sell. Speculators are not investors. But hey, that's just my opinion, you don't have to agree with it. I respect your right to be wrong.


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

thanks everyone for your valuable input...i received some great advice from jdc.

i have opened an account with Shakepay and am in the process of buying either Trezor or Ledger (still researching a bit)….

all this scam talk is of little interest to me...please to note that I did not start all this scam talk...


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I have no idea if these still work but I was able to buy $100 a day using bittrex and coinsquare in 2016 -2017 ,in fact on May 2 I received an offer from CoinSQUARE they were offering free funding for Interac and a few other methods.


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## goldman (Mar 18, 2017)

SixesAndSevens said:


> do you recommend Trezor as the best cold wallet?
> 
> thanks.


You might want to look into how to use offline paper wallets. It doesn't cost you anything to learn and try out. When used properly they are secure and very useful method for cold storage. Test the system first carefully to make sure you understand how to do it properly and securely before moving real $ onto it. But be careful if you encrypt the paper wallet with a password. If you lose/forget that password your BTC is as good as gone.

There are many guides available on the topic but here's one to start:
https://bitcoinpaperwallet.com/


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## goldman (Mar 18, 2017)

jdc said:


> Do not leave your bitcoin on exchanges after you have purchased them.


 Well said. Don't get Goxxed. Many people have lost millions in bitcoin. 

The most famous example of course is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox

James was pretty much on the mark when he pointed this out earlier in the thread: 


james4beach said:


> The last popular Canadian exchange turned out to be a massive scam, where hundreds of millions $ of customer money was lost (I'd say stolen).


This is what he's referring to:
https://www.ccn.com/190m-gone-how-canada-biggest-bitcoin-exchange-lost-it/

Some may argue that QuadrigaCX wasn't running a "scam", but whether it because of poor security or whatever the reason, millions were lost by traders and investors in this company.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I think it's about 2001 in the dotcom bubble of crypto currency. There will be Amazons and there will be an AOLs. Crypto makes as much sense as the internet itself and it's likely here to stay. Government backed fiat currency is a farce in most countries. An overdue market crash could be a huge catalyst for crypto


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> I think it's about 2001 in the dotcom bubble of crypto currency. There will be Amazons and there will be an AOLs. Crypto makes as much sense as the internet itself and it's likely here to stay. Government backed fiat currency is a farce in most countries. An overdue market crash could be a huge catalyst for crypto



coming sooner than you think: big banks are planning now how they will exchange - ie do bill payments - entirely in crypto

talk about disruption! i haven't been paying attention but need to start learning how it works

when u thinggabbouddit the current global money exchange system(s), in process of vanishing, have been stumbling along since WW II & their prior roots in 19th century telegraph technology. But the speed of change zoomed with the internet just last couple decades.

marina628 girl, if you pass by here could you please stop in & give us a couple intro to basic crypto lessons .each:


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## cheech10 (Dec 31, 2010)

Surely you mean blockchain technology, and not that banks will use one of the existing cryptocurrencies. I doubt banks will use highly volatile and potentially illiquid and prone to fraud cryptocurrencies for their day to day transactions? But a blockchain to verify and process transactions makes more sense.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Facebook Inc revealed plans on Tuesday to launch a cryptocurrency called Libra.
Facebook has also created a subsidiary called Calibra, which will offer digital wallets to save, send and spend Libras. Calibra will be connected to Facebook’s messaging platforms Messenger and WhatsApp, which already boast more than a billion users.


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## jdc (Feb 1, 2016)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Facebook Inc revealed plans on Tuesday to launch a cryptocurrency called Libra.
> Facebook has also created a subsidiary called Calibra, which will offer digital wallets to save, send and spend Libras. Calibra will be connected to Facebook’s messaging platforms Messenger and WhatsApp, which already boast more than a billion users.


..... for another perspective on this "progress":

*Libra: Facebook's Crypto Trojan Rabbit*
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-18/libra-facebooks-crypto-trojan-rabbit


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Very interesting article, if all the assumptions are correct.

I particularly noticed that merchants only account for 1.3% of all bitcoin transactions. That is no adoption by retailers at all and it will doom bitcoin.

What is the point of a crypto currency that retailers won't accept as payment and still requires banks to honor digital numbers for cash at both ends of the transaction.

Dump your bitcoin.........buy Libra.........Lambos for everyone.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ I wonder if users can buy FB stocks with Libra ... imagine FakeBook stocks for shareholders.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

goldman said:


> Well said. Don't get Goxxed. Many people have lost millions in bitcoin.
> 
> The most famous example of course is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox
> 
> ...


It's pretty clear QuadrigaCX was a scam. If you hand millions to "some guy on the internet" you deserve what you get.

The idea of blockchain and crypto currency is simple. 
Public blockchains are simple, everyones account number and balance is public, but only you have the password (private key) to make withdrawals.
It's statistically impossible to get someones private key.

Easiest way to make sure you're not scammed is to keep your password private and never share it. 

Pretty much everything else is just layers on that, though some (Monero) are private by default relying on even more crazy math to hide all the details.

What drives the price? Whatever people are willing to buy/sell at.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

SixesAndSevens said:


> you keep saying BTC is a scam and all exchanges and firm that deal with BTC are a scam...
> pray explain how BTC is a scam, yet the stock of Blue Apron, FIT Bit and GOPRO are not?
> 
> you accuse bitcoin of being a scam, yet you are happy to buy the stock of Blue Apron, Lyft, Zynga, King Digital, Zillow, Pintrest, Snap Chat and so on all day long....
> ...


Some of the exchanges are scams.
I like your list of companies.

Personally I love Pinterest, it's the #1 source of traffic for my Youtube channel. It's basically a user curated scrapbook of visual weblinks, it's wonderful.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Bitcoin is now up above $10,000 again, up 20% since Monday. It's now 3x the price of its February low. _Insanity._

Ok, so let's say I want to sell mine now. How do I do it? I hold coins within a Coinbase account, but they don't let Canadian accounts sell or withdraw. The only thing I can do is transfer the coins elsewhere.

So now that Quadriga ran off with everyone's money and the FBI are coming after the operators... how does a Canadian turn bitcoins into CAD cash? And please don't tell me I need to find some guy on Kijiji and make a deal with him at Tim Hortons.

Do those damned Bitcoin ATMs let you withdraw money? I saw one in a mall, but it only allowed deposits :stupid:


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

I would try Shakepay... that's what most people seem to use. https://shakepay.co/


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

nathan79 said:


> I would try Shakepay... that's what most people seem to use. https://shakepay.co/


I looked up the founders, to try and see their resumes. Jean Amiouny (CEO) -- the only work experience and business experience he has (in the corporate world) is with a couple tiny companies in the United Arab Emirates for barely 2 years. As far as I can tell he doesn't have any other business experience and just about nil experience working in the Canadian corporate world.

The second guy, Roy Breidi, is from Beirut. He has a little bit more corporate work experience than the other and at least a few years at Morgan Stanley, so that's solid. He must have learned something about actual business processes.

I really don't understand how these guys think they have enough experience to operate a financial tech company. I seriously doubt they have the skills and experience in computer security to do any of this safely. Security is a huge part of this kind of thing, and unless you've worked in a related field for at least 5 years, I don't think there's any chance they know how to actually keep the payments and systems secure from hackers.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Bitcoin is now up above $10,000 again, up 20% since Monday. It's now 3x the price of its February low. _Insanity._
> 
> Ok, so let's say I want to sell mine now. How do I do it? I hold coins within a Coinbase account, but they don't let Canadian accounts sell or withdraw. The only thing I can do is transfer the coins elsewhere.
> 
> ...







jdc said:


> Make sure that you initialize it yourself and write down your 24 word passphrase and save the passphrase in a safe place. Make sure that you have not made an error writing down your passphrase by transferring a very small amount of BTC to the device and then reset it and restore it from the passphrase to make sure that your BTC is still there. Do this before loading larger amounts onto it. If you lose your device, you can buy a new one and use the same 24 word passphrase to set it to access your coins again.





lively refreshing comedy posts. Except they are serious. Look he's seriously talking about 24-word passphrases for folks who easily lose their devices

24 word passphrase, now that's about the size of one new expanded double-size Tweet .each: 

it's fun posts like the above that are helping prevent this forum from turning into a mausoleum stuffed w quibbles over SRW & which credit card gives moreback on groceries


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

All of the exchanges operate as legitimate businesses for awhile to build a customer base and acquire their cash.

Then one day they claim they were "hacked", go offline and disappear to foreign lands with millions of dollars and beyond the reach of law enforcement.

Personally, I don't think law enforcement should waste a dime of taxpayer money investigating bitcoin scams. If people want to give their money to strangers........so be it.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> All of the exchanges operate as legitimate businesses for awhile to build a customer base and acquire their cash.
> 
> Then one day they claim they were "hacked", go offline and disappear to foreign lands with millions of dollars and beyond the reach of law enforcement.
> 
> Personally, I don't think law enforcement should waste a dime of taxpayer money investigating bitcoin scams. If people want to give their money to strangers........so be it.


In short you're right. I can't understand why people send millions to semi anonymous individuals, in an industry with no regulation, then act surprised when it works out bad.



humble_pie said:


> Except they are serious. Look he's seriously talking about 24-word passphrases for folks who easily lose their devices


That 24 word passphrase is your private key/password to the "account". This is the only way to access the account.
That is kind of the point of crypto currency, you have an random string of numbers that is the key to an account, and nobody without that string of numbers can access it.

If you lose the only way to access your account, then it's gone, there is no all powerful administrator who can get it back for you. 
Nobody, without those numbers can access it.
No administrator, no fake ID, no bribing some admin, no threats against "the bank". 
You seem to suggest that this is silly, but one of the underlying principles of cryptocurrencies is that ONLY the owner can access the "account". Since that is the case, you better make sure you can prove you're the owner.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> IYou seem to suggest that this is silly, but one of the underlying principles of cryptocurrencies is that ONLY the owner can access the "account"



what's silly is that the poster juxtaposes the solemn task of creating a new-generation-tweet-sized-24-word password against a personnage who then frivolously loses his device 

let's lighten up a bit here? bit coins are not yet mainstream investments, there are a lot of entertaining aspects & gawd noes this forum could use a few spots of entertainment 

marinagirl on here probably does earn real $$ from bitcoinage but most dabblers would be in the jas4 beach ballpark, ie helphelp! highwaymen have made off w my bitcoins!


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

sags said:


> Then one day they claim they were "hacked", go offline and disappear to foreign lands with millions of dollars and beyond the reach of law enforcement.


Here's a good example of a 24-word passphrase!


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## goldman (Mar 18, 2017)

nathan79 said:


> I would try Shakepay... that's what most people seem to use. https://shakepay.co/


My biggest concern is the risk of identity theft and fraud. They demand a lot of 'proof of identity' in order to protect their company from the regulators. They demand more KYC crap than I would need to provide to open a professional grade trading account. Even Equifax, the very agency claiming to protect our credit against identity theft, got hacked, and will undoubtedly result in greater identity theft in the future. So the less someone copies my personal docs the better. It just doesn't seem smart in this day and age to be taking photos of drivers licence, passport or other personal documents and sending it to some online company. It gives me the creeps thinking of the number of people who have done this and sent their private info to some sketchy online crypto company (some even in China, Korea, east Europe and so on).


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> All of the exchanges operate as legitimate businesses for awhile to build a customer base and acquire their cash.
> 
> Then one day they claim they were "hacked", go offline and disappear to foreign lands with millions of dollars and beyond the reach of law enforcement.


Exactly! And here's my problem with Shakepay. The CEO doesn't have any kind of established Canadian or US work history. He has no career or reputation to preserve around here. He's only worked at tiny "start-up" companies in the United Arab Emirates. I would be concerned that he'll just disappear overseas, never to be heard from again, with no recourse.

The Shakepay operation looks like it's owned by guys who can disappear in the blink of an eye, and have no established Canadian business credentials to be concerned about.

If I'm going to entrust my money, let's start by having executives who actually have Canadian/US careers, established reputations, and have motivation to protect their reputation.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

So let's recap. I'm saying that I hold a small bitcoin position, but the answers continue to be that I have to do business with untrustworthy people just to convert the "coins" to cash. I'll have to trust a bunch of kids with zero work history and not much more than a bachelor's degree as credentials. Colour me unimpressed.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

goldman said:


> My biggest concern is the risk of identity theft and fraud. They demand a lot of 'proof of identity' in order to protect their company from the regulators. They demand more KYC crap than I would need to provide to open a professional grade trading account.


That's a really good point. They are collecting tons of identity information and can easily be reselling it on the black market.

If you look at their staff and credentials, this company does not have the skills, experience, or credentials to be handling (and keeping safe) that kind of information. They also can't possibly have the checks and balances to prevent an employee, or the CEO, from stealing all that information.

I think Coinbase (US) is doing it the right way. That's a big, legitimate company which is staffed with proper people who are actually professionals in their field. They have a significant legal and regulatory department and work closely with tax authorities. I do actually trust Coinbase, which is why I've stored some bitcoins with them. But there are very few companies besides Coinbase (and none in Canada) which are big, properly run operations.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

I guess you will just have to hang onto your bitcoins for now, James. You could also spend them at a reputable business, or donate them. Expedia accepts Bitcoin directly from Coinbase. Wikipedia, Microsoft, and Overstock also accept Bitcoin.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

james4beach said:


> I think Coinbase (US) is doing it the right way. That's a big, legitimate company which is staffed with proper people who are actually professionals in their field. They have a significant legal and regulatory department and work closely with tax authorities. I do actually trust Coinbase, which is why I've stored some bitcoins with them. But there are very few companies besides Coinbase (and none in Canada) which are big, properly run operations.


You can use coinbase in Canada

One of the allures of crypto for me is the potential for streamlined international transfers. Coinbase apparently works in 55 countries and growing. I can download the coinbase app from my Canadian iOS account. I imagine I could connect it to both my US and Cdn banks. From what I am reading coinbase is insured and uses proper 2FA including google authenticator. Even my Canadian bank and brokerage haven't figured out how to do proper 2FA yet..

CAD has fallen drastically during my short investing career. I'm very thankful to have USDs during that fall but USD isn't the be all end all either


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

m3s, I do have a Coinbase account, and can use it to send payments. But it only has partial functionality for Canadians; you can't sell coins or withdraw cash.

You can see in their country grid that selling coins is not available in Canada: https://www.coinbase.com/global

Something funny about this bitcoin stuff, that it's easy to turn fiat cash into bitcoins, but so difficult to do the reverse. Makes you think!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Hmm you can sell it in most of Europe. Sounds like yet another reason to open a TD Bank USA account (available to Canadians without a USA address)

So what happens tax wise if you buy crypto, it appreciates and you spend it online via paypal, digital subscriptions and cash some out on a vacation to Europe.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

For Canadians who have bitcoin you want to access , you can get ecopayz account and deposit there and withdraw to your bank.I am gambler and that is what I do also coinsquare is option although I have not used that in ages.It is over $13000 now ,I have 2 coins ill keep til I die but I sell 90% of mine as soon as I receive. The only reason I even have bitcoin is because I am a gambler and that is the category I think it belongs in.It has about the same chance to be worth $6000 in December as it is $20000 .


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks marina, very interesting about ecopayz! I will take a look at that.

And there is nothing wrong with gambling. I also bought some bitcoin as a gamble... only spent as much money as I would have been willing to flush down the toilet.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

The comment about *also buying bitcoin as a gamble* suggests you have misunderstood.

IIRC, marina is playing games like poker where winnings are paid in bitcoin. She is staying away from bitcoin as an investment by selling almost all of it as she receives it to reduce her risk.


Cheers


*PS*
She is definitely gambling ... just not on the future value of bitcoin.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ah, I didn't pick up on that earlier. So she's using bitcoin as a money transfer vehicle.

I do understand the theoretical use of bitcoin for money transfers, but in my eyes a transfer instrument which fluctuates 10% within 24 hours is not viable.

In my experience doing security research, we have seen criminals in the black market prefer bitcoin and ethereum (e.g. spammers, ransomware operators), but this is because the fluctuations are nothing compared to the benefit of hiding money from authorities. The criminals are perfectly happy taking that kind of risk, just to keep the money trail hidden.

It's a different risk/reward equation than most people would use.

Our firm also interacted with other "blockchain" companies working in this crypto currency space. They all seemed sketchy and we were nervous about being involved with them. We actually had concerns about the source of their funds, with concerns about money laundering or organized crime being the source of funds. For this reason we've said "no" to all blockchain related business.


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## undersc0re (Oct 7, 2017)

My experience buying bitcoin, litecoin and etherium were pretty smooth with coinsquare. I used exodus as a wallet to store it and a means of transferring my bitcoin around. I held my etherium and litecoin on a paper/text wallet as I was paranoid for a year or so and then transferred them back to exodus when I was ready to cash them in at coinsquare again for canadian currency.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

james4beach said:


> In my experience doing security research, we have seen criminals in the black market prefer bitcoin and ethereum (e.g. spammers, ransomware operators), but this is because the fluctuations are nothing compared to the benefit of hiding money from authorities. The criminals are perfectly happy taking that kind of risk, just to keep the money trail hidden.
> 
> It's a different risk/reward equation than most people would use.
> 
> Our firm also interacted with other "blockchain" companies working in this crypto currency space. They all seemed sketchy and we were nervous about being involved with them. We actually had concerns about the source of their funds, with concerns about money laundering or organized crime being the source of funds. For this reason we've said "no" to all blockchain related business.


A lot of black markets use USD even outside of the US. That doesn't mean USD is criminal itself.. there are pros and cons to decentralization from government control

I found out you can transfer crypto to Paypal and then to your Canadian bank. From what I can tell crypto is bought/sold in USD so you might as well use a USD bank or else you pay a lot worse rates via CAD

Someone recently sold a house in Paris on the ethereum blockchain. I've started to buy ETH on coinbase as a long term diversification from fiat currency. CAD purchasing power is falling over time

Earlier this year I was intrigued to see a Canadian payload on a SpaceX launch - satellites for the HeliosWire blockchain from space


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Wow, you can do a crypto currency payment into Paypal? That's really interesting. Do you know if the bitcoin can then be sold within Paypal (converted to cash)?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Ah, I didn't pick up on that earlier. So she's using bitcoin as a money transfer vehicle.
> I do understand the theoretical use of bitcoin for money transfers, but in my eyes a transfer instrument which fluctuates 10% within 24 hours is not viable.
> ...


She knows for sure .... but my impression is that the gambling site is the one that has made the choice of bitcoin. I suspect the only choice she is making is whether to use that particular site which means receiving bitcoin for winnings or try moving to one that pays something else.

Since she mentions moving 90% from bitcoin to cash as much as fast a possible, I'd guess the variations in value haven't been enough to prompt gambling on a different site.


But who knows?
Maybe she's gambling on five sites where only one of the five pays bitcoin. :biggrin:


Cheers


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Now bitcoin is down about 20% in price over the last 24 hours. Just wacky stuff.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Huge BTC selloff triggered and coinbase crashed. Maybe price manipulation or maybe someone/people put in stop limits there

Coinbase to PayPal for Canadians as of last month and Americans got it in Dec. I believe you withdraw USD to PayPal in the US but I'm unclear who converts to CAD in Canada. PayPal currency rates are usually poor. Apparently you can also use US PayPal to certain Canadian USD accounts (BMO?)


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Bitcoin is pure speculation and price manipulation by the whales who accumulated bitcoins free or for pennies. 

The other manipulators are the exchange operators who use their customer's money to day trade.

If they make a ton of money........sweet. If they don't......they claim they were hacked and walk away without any penalty. They start up another exchange and off they go again.

Here is a link to a site listing real time transactions. How does the bitcoin price move on 0.000 units bought or sold ? 

http://bitcointicker.co/

If people want to invest in bitcoins......go ahead, but don't be one of those left holding the bag when it all blows up.


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## jdc (Feb 1, 2016)

sags said:


> Here is a link to a site listing real time transactions. How does the bitcoin price move on 0.000 units bought or sold ?
> 
> http://bitcointicker.co/


You've linked to an unknown exchange that isn't very (or at all) active. Exactly the kind of place that others are warning about. 

Perhaps you should look at an active exchange where trades are actually taking place.

https://www.binance.com/en/trade/pro/BTC_USDT


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Sounds like any other capitalist market to me sags

Referring to crypto currency as bitcoin makes you sound like buzzword msm


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

m3s said:


> Coinbase to PayPal for Canadians as of last month and Americans got it in Dec. I believe you withdraw USD to PayPal in the US but I'm unclear who converts to CAD in Canada.


This is confusing. That blog article you linked to says that "sale proceeds" can be transferred to Paypal. But Coinbase also does not yet allow selling bitcoins in Canada. This is inconsistent with all other documentation at their site which says that nothing can be sold in Canada, meaning there would never be any 'sale proceeds' to transfer.

I sent the following to their support and will share the response when I learn



> I have a Canadian coinbase account where I currently only hold BTC. I am trying to understand if the new Paypal link method allows me to sell BTC and transfer the proceeds to Paypal.
> 
> The coinbase blog post wrote: "Coinbase customers in Canada can now instantly transfer sale proceeds directly into their PayPal accounts"
> 
> ...


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Looking at their PayPal FAQ there is an odd distinction between US and Canada

*The following table lists all supported PayPal transactions by region:*


*Fiat Wallet(s)**Withdraw***Sell**USUSDUSDNoneEUEUREURNoneUKGBP and EURGBP and EURNoneCANoneNoneCAD
*Withdraw refers to a direct Fiat movement from a Fiat Wallet to an external source
*Sell refers to an indirect Fiat movement from a Crypto Wallet to Fiat then to an external source 

I take this to mean coinbase handles the USD exchange but PayPal handles the CAD exchange.

I have state ID and SSN so will use US residency rather than a PayPal's CAD rate

Canada seems to lag behind Europe and US institutional adoption


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> The comment about *also buying bitcoin as a gamble* suggests you have misunderstood.
> 
> IIRC, marina is playing games like poker where winnings are paid in bitcoin. She is staying away from bitcoin as an investment by selling almost all of it as she receives it to reduce her risk.
> 
> ...


I definitely gamble but when i refer other players to places I am making money as affiliate and they pay me via bitcoin .I sell almost as soon as I receive it for sure but been in the game long


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## Retail Investor (Jun 29, 2019)

Does anyone know if there are some decentralized exchanges which are easy to use?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Retail Investor said:


> Does anyone know if there are some decentralized exchanges which are easy to use?


I think the problem right now is liquidity so we have centralized exchanges for now

Check out Ethereum 2.0 which intends to decentralize the internet (decentralized applications as opposed to a few centralized ones controlling all the data) It will introduce an alternative to crypto mining where you can stake crypto and earn service fees for enabling decentralization (you earn the fees instead of a centralized bank/exchange/application). In a world where banks pay less interest than inflation this has piqued my interest

Blockchain is already being adopted by institutions, ethereum is already being used for supply chain management and ethereum 2.0 should add the scalability and performance required for everything else. It's like high speed internet after dial up, except decentralized. Combine fast decentralized apps with the 10000s of micro sats being launched and 5G IoT and we have a lot of interesting disruption on the horizon.

Decentralization and crypto validation makes absolute sense. It's military proven technology on steroids and institutions realize this.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> Someone recently sold a house in Paris on the ethereum blockchain. I've started to buy ETH on coinbase as a long term diversification from fiat currency. CAD purchasing power is falling over time




forgive a poor dumb crumb who is having difficulty processing the bitcoin dough

so they "sold" annA, a mansion in boulogne france, for 1 million crypto bits, to be traded on what are vaguely referred to as "secondary markets"

annA was originally priced at 6.5 million euros, so each tiny crypto "owner" bought units initially priced at 6.5 euro

if this had been a north american public IPO of common stock, the regulators would have made sure that the new company had a known management, whose CVs & histories would have been published. There would have been a board of directors. There would have been provisions for annual shareholders' meetings, where shareholders could elect new directors & act on matters affecting the corporation which they, in reality, do own.

but how is that happening with this piece of valuable bolognaise real estate located just west of central paris? how are the owners of the 1 million annA units going to connect with the managers of the property, let alone with each other? will they even know who is managing the property? who is collecting the rent? who is hiring contractors & administrators to keep the building running?

perhaps we're going to be told that the crypto investors in annA the building not only don't know anything, but they don't even want to be told. For all they care annA could be "un grand hotel" in bois-de-boulogne or it could be a brothel or a space station or a weapons factory or a car park. All they care about is that the value of their little one-millionth piece of crypto ownership should go up.

but *how* will it go up? one way of looking at it, investors would be better off holding Monopoly money. But that conclusion must be wrong, since a luxury home in colorado ski country plus a valuable condo in manhattan were both sold for multiple millions in crypto last year. 

(signed)
another clueless cmffer


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

You're just changing the registration/validation system of ownership. The indigenous people didn't believe a piece of paper with cryptic hieroglyphs dictated who owned what land. It was all fake news and silly monopoly money to the natives who continued on their system used from the beginning of time. I guess the only difference is in what system people believe in.

"The real estate industry has long been seen as perfect for tokenization. This is because it has long struggled with low liquidity. Generally, the entry ticket to invest in real estate remains high. With tokenization, sales are simplified and the threshold to invest is far lower. The participation of notaries on the platform via Equisafe will also speed up the process."

Equisafe sounds like the initial treaties between the euros and indigenous to convert to a new modern system of ownership. Once real estate is tokenized you can exchange the tokens via the blockchain rather than hiring all those expensive old fashion notaries to produce cryptic hieroglyphs on paper or scalping your neighbours for their waterfront property.

You could compare it to a REIT except instead purchasing a stock facilitated/validated by a central stock exchange you buy a token facilitated/validated by ethereum blockchain. The blockchain is processed by decentralized miners/stakes who are rewarded for their services. If a node disappears it doesn't matter because all the others are validating the same data (military love decentralization for this reason)

I suppose another difference is how you protect/store your proof of ownership. Normally you have some kind of paper deed or contract. Paper deeds and contracts can be forged/counterfeit and need to be validated/backed by some accepted system. The blockchain validates your tokens but you still need to store them offline on paper or a physical device with a memorized PIN. A 24 word passphrase is the written backup to your PIN.

So in the end it's still just hieroglyphs on a piece of paper to access all your valuable tokens in offline storage. Ideally the passphrase is on steel instead of paper and split into 2 or more secure locations, maybe duplicated for good measure. Millions of tokens have been lost or stolen because people didn't manage their passphrase properly. You can't easily recover them without the pass because it is far more secure than previous systems.

There are endless applications for ethereum whereas bitcoin is a single currency. For example ethereum could be used to validate decentralized identification. SIN/SSN is a horrible method of identification and Equifiax/Transunion is a joke


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Gotta agree Humble. I fail to see how 'tokenizing' and allowing divided ownership simplifies anything.

As with most of the new 'disruptive' technologies, a few will make billions and be unaccountable for any social or economic fallout, and a large, low-paid, tenuous class of self-employed is created.

I don't think the hieroglyphics called cash (a bank transfer), a real property report, and certificate of title registered with land titles is going away any time soon.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Blockchain is already being adopted for supply chain management in asia, europe etc. Yet Canada is baffled when someone sells fake Canadian pork to China. That is exactly the kind of thing blockchain can validate

Once people see it in action for supply chains and logistics etc it will spread to endless applications. Right now it reminds me of trying to explain to teachers in the 90s how computers would change everything.

Real estate is a tough nut to crack because a lot of rich middle-men would be disrupted. They are being disrupted by technology one way or another already just that blockchain goes full decentralization

Established boomers can resist change but they can't live forever


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Let's agree that all disruptive technologies are not the same. 
I don't dispute the merits of blockchain technology for security/encryption and the applications that might adopt it (except the scam called bitcoin et al.)
It is after all, evolution of the computing technology and power that you mention as 90's vintage. 
I was an early adopter of that technology, mainframe in the early 70's and later pc. We're not all luddite dinosaurs as you might like to think.
My issue is with the disruptive, consumer, 'user apps' we see being developed - uber, airbnb, skipthedishes, etc. These take advantage of the great technology and reach of the internet to profit immensely, with as I said above, no responsibility for social or economic costs. 
They have the ability to make our world a worse place, to grow the have-have not divide that seems to be a concern, but that users themselves are unwittingly contributing too.
Just go out and pick up your own damn food!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> You're just changing the registration/validation system of ownership. The indigenous people didn't believe a piece of paper with cryptic hieroglyphs dictated who owned what land.




ok i get the part about registration of RE ownership is just so much hieroglyphics

but i'm left wondering how-it-works in real life. Who collects the rent? presumably with annA, actual rent is paid in euros.

certainly the building managers & administrators are paying property taxes in euros. They are also paying an army of plumbers, painters, contractors, roofers, landscapers, gardeners & interior decorators in euros, to look after the RE.

it's easy to understand that a very large group of investors now own annA via a million crypto units, which now trade on some secondary crypto exchange somewhere.

what's not easy to understand is the relationship between the crypto owners & the practical, day-to-day, down-to-earth operation of annA the building. How can the crypto owners ensure that their investment is being properly looked after, so their crypto units will appreciate?

it's easier to see the inverse possibilities. How annA's administrators could quickly start bleeding the building to death, given the total absence of any kind of surveillance or reportage to owners. Inflated payments to friendly plumbers, contractors & building maintenance wink wink. Personnel hires who don't exist wink wink.

with an unsupervised & corrupt building management, annA could soon start losing money in euros. Parts would have to be sold off for payment in euros to subsidize continued operation of annA as an RE business. A few more years of this kind of cannibalization & those crypto annA ownership tokens will be worthless.

the only advantage i can see to the annA story accrues to the sellers of the property *if* they were black market criminals in the first place. Keep in mind that, in the annA deal, the sellers wound up with the equivalent of 6.5 million Euros in crpto currency. Institutions that are likely to be able to dispense with that amount of crypto are somewhat likely to be dodgy institutions, would you not say?

plus suppose that our charming annA racketeers had paid Euros to buy annA in the first place. Now they manage to sell in crypto & presto! an amazing money laundering operation has just taken place.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I imagine it would be much like owning a REIT. You read the prospectus and financial reports, dial in to conference calls or go to the shareholder meeting etc

Stocks could also be crypto tokens in the same way. Of course that won't happen any time soon because too much middle money would be disrupted

Money laundering is easy to do in lawless countries regardless of currency. I had to register my ID with coinbase and I imagine France required the same

Despite the fear mongering (from those who stand to lose) the US us pretty good at tracking money. US colleagues were officially warned about their offshore crypto assets (as well as illegal investments in Canadian cannabis!)

I wouldn't hold crypto assets offshore when I see what is happening to Binance (the largest crypto exchange originally from China)


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> I imagine it would be much like owning a REIT. You read the prospectus and financial reports, dial in to conference calls or go to the shareholder meeting etc



first paragraph above ^^ is exactly my point

what prospectus? what financial reports? dial into what conference call (keep in mind that crypto citizens aren't using audio phones for much of anything any more) (even takeout is all order online now)

go. to. shareholders. meeting ? yuk. yuk. as. jargey. would. say.





> Money laundering is easy to do in lawless countries regardless of currency. I had to register my ID with coinbase and I imagine France required the same



it's a question of relative quantities. Your little bourse of coins registered with coinbase cannot be compared to a virtual strongbox containing coins worth 6.5 million Euros.

Q: what kind of institution is able to casually contemplate dispensing with a coin hoard valued at 6.5 million euro? 

A: probably a dodgy institution. France can register the virtual strongbox until the quai d'Orsay goes blue in the face; but any institution capable of flipping the equivalent of 6.5 million euros is a major crypto player & no doubt has reasons for keeping its affairs anonymous


then we have the existential question: what does registering with coinbase mean?
who regulates coinbase? 
is there a god?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i would just like to say - before i post my critique of m3's version of indigenous nation history in canada - that i & no doubt many others in cmf forum appreciate the opportunity to view m3's adventuresome star-grazing explorations in cryptoland.

you'll notice that we who nitpick are not going there. We've never owned little bourses filled w coins. Unlike marina, we don't even own 2 favourite coins that we intend to keep hidden until the day we die.

in effect we're kibbitzing on those adventure souls who have launched themselves into coinspace. Thankx for sharing while you explore. Please forgive the questioning each:


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

It's dirt easy to set up a LLC shell in many states and countries to launder money. Lots of off shore money flows into empty Canadian real estate legally. Canada is a money laundering dream. This stuff exists regardless of crypto currency

"The Financial Crimes Enforcement Network is a bureau of the United States Department of the Treasury that collects and analyzes information about financial transactions in order to combat domestic and international money laundering, terrorist financing, and other financial crimes."

According to US colleagues the US is very much on top of tracking crypto assets. They have received direct warnings both about crypto and cannabis investments such as a Canadian ETF

I'm not sure that Canadian regulators are.. hence coinbase does not cash out to Canadian residents directly and hence the Canadian Quadriga affair


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

^^ i see your points ... valid enough ... not replying now because we're drifting too far off the track here (this is not a thread about money laundering)

i still say that easing RE sales by having prices broken down into millions of crypto tokens worth only a few dollars or euros each is not ... per se ... imho ... a good enough reason to sell in crypto instead of selling in dollars or euro. I still say that something else appears to be going on.

i'm also sticking to my knitting that crpto exchanges don't have proper regulators or proper IPOs or proper prospectuses or proper token-holders' voting rights or even proper news coverage. Therefore owning physical real estate via a little wallet of coins is not comparable to owning shares of a regulated exchange-traded REIT. Crypto is far riskier imho.

this whole issue is the type that should be put on a back burner imho. See what else comes along that belongs in the same pot, as time goes by (cue music: bergman, bogart, browning, casablanca)


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Forbes article on the RE sale

"Beyond the advantages of liquidity, tokenizing the real estate process provides many other advantages over a traditionally antiquated process. For instance, in the sale of the AnnA Villa , much of the cumbersome legal documentation involved with selling property (such as notarized deeds and proof of identity), was all encrypted and recorded on the blockchain. If scaled effectively, the time and cost saved from not having to manually verify this information could prove to be enormous. Equisafe is going as far as to claim individuals will be able to create investor profiles and access offers in less than half an hour. "

Sounds like proof of identity is still required just that it is verified by a blockchain rather than a wax seal and some illegible squiggles on a piece of a tree.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

So everything people own would be recorded on the blockchain and available for public scrutiny ?

That would certainly make the tax auditor's job easier.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> So everything people own would be recorded on the blockchain and available for public scrutiny ?
> 
> That would certainly make the tax auditor's job easier.


That's the point of a public blockchain.
Of course if you don't want every single transaction and holding public, use a private blockchain.

Of course the problem with blockchains is what happens when someone forgets their private keys. The data is locked.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> Forbes article on the RE sale
> 
> "Beyond the advantages of liquidity, tokenizing the real estate process provides many other advantages over a traditionally antiquated process. For instance, in the sale of the AnnA Villa , much of the cumbersome legal documentation involved with selling property (such as notarized deeds and proof of identity), was all encrypted and recorded on the blockchain. If scaled effectively, the time and cost saved from not having to manually verify this information could prove to be enormous. Equisafe is going as far as to claim individuals will be able to create investor profiles and access offers in less than half an hour. "
> 
> Sounds like proof of identity is still required just that it is verified by a blockchain rather than a wax seal and some illegible squiggles on a piece of a tree.




hmmmmn i don't believe we're on the same page though

what you are talking about i believe is a new form of IPO, offering cybershares aka tokens & thus changing the title of a real estate property into another form altogether. However the property itself remains unchanged. It's a brick-&-mortar structure with brick-&-mortar upkeep costs plus conventional currency rental income.

right away i see a growing gap between the numerous crypto owners of the building & its bricks-&-mortar existence. There's no system in place to deliver reliable financial reports to the crypto owners, let alone "audited" financial reports. 

there's no mandatory, regulated communication to the share/token crypto owners. They certainly can't "dial into" a financial analysts conference call, because there won't be any. 

there's nothing to prevent the real-life bricks-&-mortar managers of the building from cheating the crypto owners silly. 

there will be no recourse if developments turn dodgy. There's no regulatory exchange authority. There are no courts of law. Crypto exchanges, such as they are, are spotty if not shady.

selling a valuable RE property in crypto might be a feasible first step, but i cannot see anything that would support, back up, protect or regulate the business operation that inevitably has to follow.

annA looks like a nice building in real life, maybe 1870s prosperous french haute bourgeoisie or maybe 1920s copy of that somewhat florid late 19th century architectural style. In any event annA deserves to live on for another century as bricks-&-mortar. For that to happen, la grande dame needs grounded, real-life TLC.

would this be a useful analogy? m3 you could sell your motorbike for crypto to a private club of bikers who would take turns riding or leasing. But the machine would still require gas, oil, grease, regular maintenance, conventional license plates, registration with the local dept of motor vehicles. The riders would still have to follow the rules of the road.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I don't know the details of how the building is handled. Only these very few buildings have been sold via blockchain. It's big news for adoption of ethereum blockchain, a Canadian-Russian startup that has become the 2nd largest behind bitcoin.

Let's say instead a company decided to sell shares via ethereum blockchain. I imagine you still need regulatory bodies in between, I believe the difference would be how your holdings would be exchanged, stored and validated. You could still pay a fee to have a third party store/protect your tokens, you could still pay a fee to use a centralized exchange (ideally low fees)

It's basically the difference between paper with illegible squiggles and id numbers (which are validated by a central agency stamp etc) and a blockchain ledger that any node can validate with crypto. It's far less susceptible to forgery/counterfeit papers and decentralized (fees not controlled by a central agency) Everything else I imagine mostly stays the same

What is interesting is that starting soon with ETH on ethereum you will be able to earn fees for providing a decentralized node as an alternative to mining. This would require a small 24/7 connected computer and 32 ETH


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

james4beach said:


> So let's recap. I'm saying that I hold a small bitcoin position, but the answers continue to be that I have to do business with untrustworthy people just to convert the "coins" to cash. I'll have to trust a bunch of kids with zero work history and not much more than a bachelor's degree as credentials. Colour me unimpressed.


you keep saying that over & over again...yet the answer is right in front of you....

Shakepay easily remits your proceeds from Bitcoin sale to any Canadian bank account in Canadian $$s.
you can either open a trading account directly with Shakepay or use them as an intermediator….

if you don't want to use shakepay as your brokerage, and if you are happy with Coinbase, fine...just transfer your Bitcoins from Coinbase to Shakepay.
then immediately sell your BTC and convert to CDN$.
then send the CDN$ to your bank account.

as for fraud etc...there is lots of fraud everywhere.
there is no dearth of fraud on the stock exchanges either....


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If a credit card gets fraudulent charges or a bank account is hacked, the banks or companies refund the lost money.

Who refunds the money if the blockchain or the exchanges get hacked ? The big problem with decentralization is that everybody is in charge and nobody is in charge.


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

sags said:


> If a credit card gets fraudulent charges or a bank account is hacked, the banks or companies refund the lost money.


Tell that to the Greeks, or the Cypriots, or the Venezuelans, or the Turks, etc....


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> If a credit card gets fraudulent charges or a bank account is hacked, the banks or companies refund the lost money.
> 
> Who refunds the money if the blockchain or the exchanges get hacked ? The big problem with decentralization is that everybody is in charge and nobody is in charge.


Depends

For US residents coinbase has up to $250k USD FDIC insurance for USD balance and separate insurance for digital assets. Their fee is 0.5% on coinbase pro. They also have 2FA which is more secure than any Canadian bank or brokerage (You are always held accountable for your password and yet Canadian banks have weaker sms security which can easily be intercepted and spoofed)

But leaving your tokens with a central agency is kind of the antithesis of decentralization. Ideally you transfer most of your valuable tokens to a cold storage ledger device offline. You require that physical device and a memorized PIN to access your tokens. In case the device breaks or gets lost/stolen you have the 24 word passphrase which can recover the tokens. Therefore that passphrase should be in a safe and never on a connected device that could be hacked. Even better you split up the passphrase into 2 secure locations, and maybe duplicate it.

Or you pay someone else a nominal fee to insure/secure/protect your tokens


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> Let's say instead a company decided to sell shares via ethereum blockchain. I imagine you still need regulatory bodies in between, I believe the difference would be how your holdings would be exchanged, stored and validated. You could still pay a fee to have a third party store/protect your tokens, you could still pay a fee to use a centralized exchange (ideally low fees) ...
> 
> Everything else I imagine mostly stays the same



interesting. Where we have a gap is the question of regulatory authorities. On the one hand what i hear you saying ("I imagine ...") is that regulatory authorities would carry on as usual, to ensure accurate & timely information flow about their investments back to the crypto token holders who are the "shareholders."

but me i'm not sure about this. I tend to think that, once an investment vehicle has jumped off the known map of the world & turned itself into crypto, then all reporting & regulatory bets are off.

remember how it was for lawyers in the early days of the internet. There were no common law precedents. Lawyers attempting to sue for libel or patent infringement, for example, had to painstakingly build internet jurisprudence case by case.

in the same way, i believe there is a risk that similar lawlessness could prevail in the emerging world of crypto investments. No courts of law, no regulatory authorities, no rules. Only the wild west, US frontier style.

PS it just dawned on me. What your recent posts have mostly dealt with is a blockchain modality that could replace the current CDS system in the brokerage industry.

but me i'm saying that the holistic experience of owning & managing a portf of stocks is infinitely bigger & more complicated than just custodial services


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

When bank CEOs talk about exploring the blockchain technology, they aren't considering a public decentralized blockchain where transactions are validated by private citizens.

They are talking about using some of the blockchain technology to develop their own in-house private and centralized holder of data, only accessible by the bank.

Bitcoins or other cryto tokens will not be relevant or required for those kinds of applications.

People also post on bitcoin forums how bitcoin will save people living in countries where currencies are falling or inflation is rampant. 

What they fail to understand is bitcoin is bought and sold in local currency (perhaps US dollars first and then converted). 

If the value of the currency falls.....it will require more local currency to buy bitcoins. If it falls.........it will require less local currency.

The same is true on selling the bitcoins or crypto for local currency, except that it has absorbed some fees on the journey from local currency to bitcoins to local currency.

Until there is wide spread merchant adoption of bitcoin or other crypto they remain tokens traded back and forth.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

As to heightened security.......banks have ascertained the risk to reward aspect of higher security measures.

They weigh the customer response to more layers of security versus the fraud cost savings. Until recently they decided to absorb the cost to keep customers from leaving.

Our bank(TD) now occasionally sends out text messages requiring the input of a security number to proceed further on their website portal. 

It is a pain in the butt when you are in public and if a person didn't have their cellphone with them they wouldn't be able to access their account.

But, the banks have weighed the risk/reward for them and decided they will increase security and if some customers leave..........oh well.

I think the security required for bitcoin (as an example) is so cumbersome that few people would be interested in it.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

sags said:


> When bank CEOs talk about exploring the blockchain technology, they aren't considering a public decentralized blockchain where transactions are validated by private citizens.
> 
> They are talking about using some of the blockchain technology to develop their own in-house private and centralized holder of data, only accessible by the bank.
> 
> Bitcoins or other cryto tokens will not be relevant or required for those kinds of applications.



totally agree. Would think that banks are well into the procedure of studying blockchain for their own internal applications.

canadian chartered banks all have securities divisions that underwrite IPOs. However i imagine that if one popped the question in any of their boardrooms Are you guys Planning any kind of IPO in Crypto, one would be answered with hollow laughter.






> People also post on bitcoin forums how bitcoin will save people living in countries where currencies are falling or inflation is rampant.
> 
> What they fail to understand is bitcoin is bought and sold in local currency (perhaps US dollars first and then converted).
> 
> If the value of the currency falls.....it will require more local currency to buy bitcoins.



kind of disagree with you here. Dumping devaluing local currency to buy stores of value that are perceived to be more stable, such as gold or US dollars, or swiss francs in a bygone era, is a strategy that does work.

the issue would be how soon nervous folks in a country afflicted w plunging currency would manage to buy their bitcoin. Obviously no use closing the barn door after the horses have bolted.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> People also post on bitcoin forums how bitcoin will save people living in countries where currencies are falling or inflation is rampant.
> 
> What they fail to understand is bitcoin is bought and sold in local currency (perhaps US dollars first and then converted).
> 
> ...


This is true but adoption is still possible. In some countries people prefer to use another government's fiat currency because theirs is worthless/unstable and various other reasons.

It would require far more adoption but it is happening faster in other countries than Canadians realize.



sags said:


> Our bank(TD) now occasionally sends out text messages requiring the input of a security number to proceed further on their website portal.
> 
> It is a pain in the butt when you are in public and if a person didn't have their cellphone with them they wouldn't be able to access their account.
> 
> ...


TD uses a horrible implementation 2 factor authentication for several glaring reasons. I now have dozens of accounts secured by Google authenticator, including coinbase. YOU can be held responsible for mismanaging your password and account access. If you give your password to a 3rd party API or don't protect it you can be held liable for the loss.

The security for crypto is actually very flexible. You can have some tokens in a convenient online wallet and you can secure more valuable tokens with as little or as much security as you chose. This is no different than walking around with $ cash in your pocket while leaving insured $$ in a bank and $$$ insured by a brokerage

The real danger I see is older folks mismanaging their crypto wallets, but they would be wise to simply pay a small fee for someone else to insure/secure/protect their digital assets. Securing your own tokens would be more like storing your own gold or cash



humble_pie said:


> totally agree. Would think that banks are well into the procedure of studying blockchain for their own internal applications.
> 
> canadian chartered banks all have securities divisions that underwrite IPOs. However i imagine that if one popped the question in any of their boardrooms Are you guys Planning any kind of IPO in Crypto, one would be answered with hollow laughter.


National Bank of Canada and JP Morgan Chase for example are testing a variant of ethereum blockchain. Something like 90% of crypto is based on a variant of ethereum.

What is laughing stalk is Facebook's libra. What got me interested again now (originally considered bitcoin +5 years ago and passed) is the tech giants amazon, google all seriously working on developing their own smart contracts for decentralized apps and digital transactions (ethereum again). Facebook is the antithesis of decentralized smart contracts, but it is big news for wide scale awareness of this emerging disruptive tech


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

ok i'm getting a fragment of the picture. Vitalik Buterin, it's easy for some to go overboard w this kid, he may be a youthful einstein but on the other hand he does come w a whiff of 4chan

some folks are uneasy w the russia link while others wonder about an anarchist goal to bust up the global financial system & transfer wealth from publicly accountable banks into the sealed unreachable crypto wallets of billions of individual earthlings

useful definition: _a good private school today is anybody with an internet connection
_
m3 is this the real buterin or is this an imposter? you're one who'd know for sure but me i can't tell

https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin?lang=en


PS i like that laughing stalk. Oh the snickering celery


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

thanks goldman for the information.
i will look into paper wallets too...

keeping bitcoins at the exchanges is not recommended at all...lots of problems, not just hacking risk.
there is lending, rehypothecation, etc etc.
institutions like goldman (ahem !) getting into this business now...



goldman said:


> You might want to look into how to use offline paper wallets. It doesn't cost you anything to learn and try out. When used properly they are secure and very useful method for cold storage. Test the system first carefully to make sure you understand how to do it properly and securely before moving real $ onto it. But be careful if you encrypt the paper wallet with a password. If you lose/forget that password your BTC is as good as gone.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Gotta agree Humble. I fail to see how 'tokenizing' and allowing divided ownership simplifies anything.
> 
> As with most of the new 'disruptive' technologies, a few will make billions and be unaccountable for any social or economic fallout, and a large, low-paid, tenuous class of self-employed is created.
> 
> I don't think the hieroglyphics called cash (a bank transfer), a real property report, and certificate of title registered with land titles is going away any time soon.


May as well stick with this bitcoin thread re disruptive technologies.
Here's another great example someone sent me. Lime scooters, dropped into Calgary like the plague a few weeks ago. The principals build an 'app', make a billion dollars off of thousands of idiots at $5 or $10 a pop and then leave the community to pick up the pieces. In this case the costs of  30 new cases a week in emergency rooms of an already strained health care system.
Local politicians are bamboozled or are too gutless to establish rigorous bylaws and costs to these companies.
The lemmings feel entitled to treat themselves to a scooter on their way to their starbucks while they whine about not having any money and the dastardly 1% that they unwittingly enrich.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Those scooters are definitely the latest menace. In Portland there are 3 or 4 brands of them (Lime + others) littering the streets. Some people throw them into the river too, and I kept seeing staff pulling mucky scooters taken out of the river.

For a period of a few days, I installed the Lime software and used it a bit. But I was moving large boxes (around 20 lb each) and used the scooters as a cart. I load the box onto the platform and walk along side it, using a bit of acceleration to help move it along. I can even do a brisk walk and this made the transportation very easy.

These are absolutely a bad idea to ride, though. Very little stability and they are far too fast for the sidewalk. (Of course most people can't control themselves and hit the accelerator, going at top speed). On a real road, they are incredibly dangerous as I see people winding in and out of traffic, not wearing helmets. At least a bicycle is naturally stable -- part of the design -- but there's nothing like that with the scooters.

Just more silicon valley, venture-funded junk


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> ok i'm getting a fragment of the picture. Vitalik Buterin, it's easy for some to go overboard w this kid, he may be a youthful einstein but on the other hand he does come w a whiff of 4chan
> 
> some folks are uneasy w the russia link while others wonder about an anarchist goal to bust up the global financial system & transfer wealth from publicly accountable banks into the sealed unreachable crypto wallets of billions of individual earthlings


lol @ 4chan - there is definitely an anarchist undertone but I think most here would agree the big banks are overdue for some innovation and disruption

I'm late to the crypto scene and I don't really know where Vitalik hangs out. He did post his face to that twitter account with a hand written ethereum blockchain address - the equivalent of holding today's newspaper in a photo I suppose. The account is also verified by twitter

Far less is know of Satoshi Nakamoto - some even believe the US government could have created bitcoin with the false pretense of anonymity. While this could be the biggest plot twist in modern history I'm not really convinced the government is that smart today?

US military data exchange protocols, which lead to the very basis of the internet protocol, GPS, encryption, mobile data network technology etc could soon be adopting an existing blockchain technology. I see more and more institutions adopting blockchain now and it will be very disruptive very soon - imo

I'm experimenting with coinbase Pro now. Fees are lower and security is even more advanced than online brokerages I've used like Interactive brokers. They required government ID, legal name and they send US tax forms.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

m3s said:


> ... I think most here would agree the big banks are overdue for some innovation and disruption...


I don't agree, but I may be in a minority, and I'm not sure what 'innovation and disruption' means?

A lot of people complain about the big 5 monopoly and fees they charge, but I think it relates to the overall poor financial education of consumers. A person can minimize or eliminate those fees if they are diligent. I can do anything I need to online now. I only occasionally need to go into a branch to transact.

I'd sooner see more changes to the payday loan criminals that are allowed to exist. They are opportunistic parasites.

'Most here' have benefited from owning bank shares either directly or indirectly. Canada has benefited from relative low inflation and dollar stability that the banking systems of some other countries have not. 

I'd be careful what you wish for.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Speed - It typically takes 5-7 days for a transaction to settle in NA vs seconds or microseconds on a blockchain

Security - We authenticate transactions with scribbles and codes that are hacked everyday (at a cost to everyone) vs blockchain that is a decentralized history of transactions authenticated by encryption

Cost - You apparently forget or don't realize you pay the banks indirectly everywhere through merchant fees, costs to stocks/business you hold vs modern efficient digital currency technology at lower costs

Decentralization - Fiat supply is centrally controlled by arbitrary agencies that fail (at a cost to everyone) vs currency that can be verified by anyone at anytime instead of a central agency

Globalization - We have different currencies in every arbitrary region with associated fees and delays to international business vs fast, cheap, secure international transactions

I hold bank stocks too because they are a cash cow but their day will come. Most of them are well aware and are testing blockchain and crypto themselves

I feel like the '90s again trying to explain to (typically older people) why computers would be such a big deal soon.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

None of your points have any priority with me I'm afraid. 
I suppose financial institutions may have priorities among them but as you note, they are already exploring blockchain technology and I'm sure they'll adopt what makes sense to them regardless of your opinions.

Trying to explain? You're not explaining anything in your earlier post. You're just expressing your opinion that 'most here would agree the big banks are overdue for some innovation and disruption', and I'm just disagreeing with you that 'most are'. 
But I'm glad you were able to parlay it into another one of your many digs against older people. I'm certainly glad that you didn't have to see your parents grow old, and I'm glad that you won't grow old (to our benefit, not yours).


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> None of your points have any priority with me I'm afraid.


Sounds exactly like what they said about personal computers and smartphones. That's probably what they said about horseless carriages too, because automobile was too much for the imagination

A moving company recently had to compensate me for lost mattresses and by the time the bureaucracy and 5-7 days payment settled and delivery they spent far more just compensating me for hotels than the mattress. I could have even opted for their second method of payment - cheque by snail mail

SWIFT system is a half century old now and usually requires manual action by bankers to track and confirm payments. SWIFT settles trillions per day and are well aware their time is limited. They tried to upgrade the SWIFT system in response but it's like speeding up a horse when you see a rocket.

It's suddenly being adopted at the institutional level faster than the retail level. Time will tell if they keep control of retail or if retail skips the middle men at discount


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

If you've managed to hire a moving company that can lose mattresses, I'm not sure blockchain is going to solve your problems.

I had a Macintosh back in '84 or '85. But you wouldn't remember that far back.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> I'm certainly glad that you didn't have to see your parents grow old, and *I'm glad that you won't grow old (to our benefit, not yours)*.



i've hesitated over this ^^ but finally decided to speak out because i can't believe what my eyes are reading. OnlyMO, could you please elaborate: would the above be a death threat against a spotless canadian soldier


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

If you were into new things 35 years ago it fits assuming you were 35 years younger then. I'm sure as my time horizon shortens my tolerance for change shortens too. The youngins at work talked newfangled crypto currency for years before I got in, and I've barely dipped my toes. There's a lot more adoption than I thought especially outside of Canada

I don't hire the moving companies but that has got to be the worst business models out there. At new replacement coverage for all things lost/damaged they might as well just buy everything instead of trying to move it anywhere. The manual labour force definitely varies drastically by region

Trillions of dollars moving around at the speed of a snail and the security of some arbitrary scribbles at premium prices looks overdo for disruption and innovation to me


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

No humble. No threat intended at all. 

m3s' distain for older people has been written here many times.

So my facetious comment was meant to remind him that he (presumably) has older parents and will (presumably) one day be old himself. So it is a bit over the top to be frequently slagging older people just because their ideas/opinions don't align with his. One day he will be one humself.

I can't speak to the 'spotless' record you seem privy to, but if attitude or prejudices count, I have to wonder whether "We stand on guard for thee" excludes a large segment of Canadians.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> No humble. No threat intended at all.
> 
> m3s' distain for older people has been written here many times.
> 
> ...



thankx for taking the trouble to reply, i did find your original post baffling & possibly distressing but as we all know this is just a casual internet chat forum, folks tend to dash off many remarks that do need a bit of elaboration ... you are right, we all do grow old!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> m3s' distain for older people has been written here many times.



this is a postscript. Once again it's interesting how different folks perceive different stories ...

me i don't see a cmffer with any kind of *distain* or disdain or difficulty at all with older people. On the contrary i see a highly skilled elite soldier, still young but now approaching the prime productive years of his life, who has a genius ability for getting along with crusty old generals & stifling bureaucrats .each: .


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Humble, because of the nearly nonexistent search capability of this forum, I can't retrieve the multiple past examples of distain that m3s has shown for older people. I have replied to several of them at the time. Some speak disparagingly of other religions or races, his tendency is to do so re/ older people, particularly when it relates to technology - as if they know nothing of it.
If he were my son, this would bother me.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I can't see how old anyone is online so maybe you take things too personal

My father and I argue about this stuff all the time and neither of us get offended. I talk about how much incoming automation will disrupt things and he says it will never happen etc. If we agreed about everything what else is there to talk about. I believe he is out of touch and going off old information and he believes nothing has changed. If you've ever met a kid that believes everything their parents tell them - these are troubling people

Generals take into account extensive advise from younger staff otherwise it would be chaos.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Someone slagging a racial group would be called out.
Continue to disparage older people as a group and I'll continue to call you out.
Too personal is not the issue.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Bitcoin down 15% today... unless the quote I'm seeing is faulty.

ETH appears to be down 20% today. Not too useful as a currency.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

talk about lucky lol I won $6000 last night and decided to cash out at 3am this morning to my bank instead of usual go to bed and deal with it later.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Someone slagging a racial group would be called out.
> Continue to disparage older people as a group and I'll continue to call you out.
> Too personal is not the issue.


Yet it's fine to say many young people are always doing/thinking x and nobody would find that offensive

The worst offenders tend to be the most sensitive and yet seemingly unaware that they constantly marginalize others far worse.

This is like the MAGA hats complaining that others look at them funny while dismissing much more serious complaints



james4beach said:


> Bitcoin down 15% today... unless the quote I'm seeing is faulty.
> 
> ETH appears to be down 20% today. Not too useful as a currency.


Yea it's pretty volatile.

I'd compare it to tech stocks in the '90s. Wild speculation on the potential disruption and not a lot of clarity yet on who will be the Googles and the Amzns

Remember HotBot or Lycos?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I think there is a future in crypto currencies but I'm just not convinced Bitcoin is the one. There seem to be too many problems with Bitcoin.

- The blockchain is big and clunky, full of garbage
- Very nonuniform ownership, with heavy concentration among whales
- Poor liquidity due to several impediments, including slow/asymptotic confirmation
- High transaction fees at times
- Horribly loose regulatory environment, leading to scams, which soured many people

So while I think crypto currencies are a neat concept, I don't think bitcoin is the one. I have around $200 worth but wouldn't dream of buying more. The problem with crypto currencies is that while it's true that supply *of one specific coin*is limited, when you think about all crypto currencies, there is actually unlimited supply. There are a ton of them, and new ones being created all the time.

Unlimited supply and moderate demand aren't a good equation.

So yeah, Bitcoin might be like Lycos. Very nice idea, good implementation... but ultimately, not the one that lasts. Which is why investing in any of the current ones is extremely risky.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Bitcoin is to crypto currency as ski-doo is to snow machine - it is the OG original gangsta. It is the most wildly speculated due to notoriety and its supply is finite. Once all bitcoin have been mined that is all. Even less are in circulation because many bitcoin were lost in the early days and may never be recovered. I consider bitcoin to be like gold - clunky currency but should hold value long term as the OG

Ethereum developed buy Russian-Canadian Vitalik Buterin is considered to be a far more technologically advanced blockchain. It has smart contract functionality and distributed applications that I don't fully understand. Providing computation and digital storage for an ethereum node earns you "gas" - transaction fees paid as an incentive just for contributing computational resources to this decentralized network.

Ripple is supposed to be the lightning fast and efficient crypto currency. Well known banks and international transfer services are adopting ripple to transfer currency internationally crazy fast and cheap. Then Litecoin sounds like a balance and compromise of ethereum and ripple. Litecoin is also finite.

Most of the other alt crypto coins seem to be based on ethereum. I don't see any advantage to that myself. Ethereum is the most interesting to me because it provides a network that can be used to create distributed applications for anything and you can earn ETH by contributing to the network (which is being adopted for many real world applications from real estate to NBA contracts)

Canadians are very slow to adopt crypto because we have a decent currency but imagine you live in India where one day they ban certain bills or china or africa etc. USA, Singapore, Malta, Hong Kong, UK, S Korea etc have massive crypto exchanges and yet Canada is once again left in the dust. Without US residency I don't even know if a solid crypt exchange for Canadians exists


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