# Better check your gold wafers!



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...ar-certified-royal-canadian-mint-exposed-fake

Goldsmith bought wafer from RBC and finds it's fake. Most people won't check theirs until it's too late.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Wow, yes this seems like a big deal. I'm concerned.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/fake-gold-wafer-rbc-canadian-mint-1.4368801

I have bought several 1 oz Royal Canadian Mint wafers of exactly this type. What's really worrying here is that he bought the bar from RBC, and usually buying the bar from a Big Five bank is considered the best way to get a legitimate bar.

Also, past tungsten fakes were only seen in cases of larger bars of several ounce weights. This shows that even thin, 1 oz bars can be fakes. This might make me cool off on the idea of acquiring more physical gold.

Good example of how ZeroHedge is worth reading for the 1 in 10 stories that are legit.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Wow, yes this seems like a big deal. I'm concerned.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/fake-gold-wafer-rbc-canadian-mint-1.4368801
> 
> ...




sorry i don't see how this is any kind of good example from zerohedge!

the ZH piece is copied from the CBC story, which appeared first. Check the time/date stamps.

the CBC debuted the story at 5 am today. It took zerohedge more than 8 hours to plagiarize the CBC original piece. 

zerohedge even stole the photographs, shame, shame. One could say that the zerohedge story is a wad of tungsten wrapped in a fake wrapper so it looks like a CBC story .:biggrin:


.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Everyone should be reading CBC News daily, but ZeroHedge occasionally has interesting financial articles from other sources. ZH does link to the CBC article.

By the way, tungsten is brittle at room temperature, so the description of the bar is consistent with a fake tungsten bar. The question is now, how did this get into RBC's supply, and how prevalent is it?

Did the fake get itself into (A) the mint or (B) RBC? Both are extremely worrying, though it's much worse if it's at the Royal Canadian Mint. Already, this story will have instantly eroded global confidence in the quality of the Royal Canadian Mint's product.

Because of this news, I will hold off on new bar purchases for at least a year. I'm also going to get in touch with the banks I've purchased from, and have them explain to me how they can assure me I am buying real gold. Hopefully this will put pressure on them to get to the bottom of this and aggressively prosecute the responsible people.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Everyone should be reading CBC News daily, but ZeroHedge occasionally has interesting financial articles from other sources. ZH does link to the CBC article.




jas4 the stolen-copyright-plagiarization issue is far greater than what you are setting forth above.

zerohedge appears to have stolen this story lock, stock & barrel from the cbc. The fact that it took zerohedge nearly 9 hours to copy the cbc text into their own words confirms what a mickey-mouse operation zerohedge is. In all those 9 hours, look how they were incapable of even reaching any of the sources for an updated quote.

one of the most flagrant issues is the theft of the photographs. Those shown by zerohedge must have been copyright cbc; yet zerohedge is posting them without any attribution whatsoever.

i'd say the packaging of stolen copyright journalism in zerohedge fake wrapping is a crime as serious as any fakery of gold wafers.


BTW notice that the mint is saying - at preliminary inspection - that even the wafer packaging appears to be fake. I would not disbelieve this. Art copies are big global crime these days. The high quality of the fakes is ususally mind-boggling. Theoretically speaking - until we know more details - those wafers & their imitative blister packaging could have been manufactured on another continent.


.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Could be a signal for the end for the Canadian economy is near.

Martin Armstrong not only went to museums to get info that could be found no where else. He also spent millions buying Roman coins so the coins could be melted down so he could track how the amount of gold used in coins diminished over the years. The info was down loaded into his computer to be used in his cycle work.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Lol at arguing who is more worth reading ZeroHedge or CBC...both are full of it. But if you hold bars James you should open them & get a jeweler to appraise them, might not cost too much.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

For those of us who own gold that we bought through banks, do you think we should do anything?

Buying a test kit or having the bars assayed costs money, and I think it also causes slight damage to the bar, which will reduce its value in the open market.

The Royal Canadian Mint better get to the bottom of this to restore faith in their product, and the same goes for RBC.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

humble, point taken about the theft of the story from CBC.

I wish they had taken a better photo of this fake bar. Here's what a real RCM bar looks like:

https://online.kitco.com/products/1.../enu-1-oz-Gold-RCM-Bar-9999-10092-60000-2.jpg

Unfortunately in the CBC photo, the flash has washed out most of this front. It would have been great if they also photographed the back, so we could see if it has the Mint logo across it.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This is not the first fake gold bar found in Canada. This youtube video shows a Scotiabank branded Valcambi Suisse bar that's also fake. I've bought ones exactly like this (Scotiabank branded) and will try to test mine, if I can.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

Eder said:


> Lol at arguing who is more worth reading ZeroHedge or CBC...both are full of it. But if you hold bars James you should open them & get a jeweler to appraise them, might not cost too much.


part of the problem is that the sealing insures veracity

i would call the mint and report serial numbers and send picture before i would unseal a bar

this isn’t really all that new, the mint has a page on how to check for fakes and counterfeits

this has been happening in gold for a long time


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Update: The Royal Canadian Mint says it did not sell this bar.
http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pm...ays-phoney-gold-bar-was-a-counterfeit-attempt

*This means that Royal Bank of Canada has counterfeits in their supply and are selling counterfeits to customers.*

"Boom" goes RBC's gold dealership business. Nobody in their right mind will ever buy physical gold from RBC again. I certainly won't, and I was planning on buying at least 10K in bars in December.

Also, why did this story disappear from the CBC News pages? It's not on the front page, nor under Canada, nor Business.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Eder said:


> Lol at arguing who is more worth reading ZeroHedge or CBC...both are full of it.



nobody's arguing. The CBC published a well-researched piece of original journalism. You might not like this fact, but the CBC does employ professional, accredited journalists. Their story on jeweller Tang's unfortunate wafer purchase is first-class reportage.

zerohedge - your original citation, so it appears that reading zerohedge is how you obtain your "news" - is a trash operation that stole the CBC story. There's no mention that the CBC ever sold or gave copyright privilege to zerohedge. 

.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Update: The Royal Canadian Mint says it did not sell this bar.
> http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pm...ays-phoney-gold-bar-was-a-counterfeit-attempt
> 
> *This means that Royal Bank of Canada has counterfeits in their supply and are selling counterfeits to customers.*
> ...


i have been playing with the idea of getting the mint to send me some of my mnt etf in actual gold, i believe thats part of the deal ... i wonder now if they will now go direct with their bullion instead of just their commemoratives


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm sure the Mint will let you redeem MNT gold. But you need very large units to make that happen.

Personally I am much more concerned about how counterfeit gold entered the RBC supply. What about the TD and Scotia supplies, are they clean? Now I'm not so sure.

RBC precious metals business is gone though. We just watched it evaporate, 'poof'. Luckily it's not a big part of their business.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

james4beach said:


> I'm sure the Mint will let you redeem MNT gold. But you need very large units to make that happen.
> 
> Personally I am much more concerned about how counterfeit gold entered the RBC supply. What about the TD and Scotia supplies, are they clean? Now I'm not so sure.
> 
> RBC precious metals business is gone though. We just watched it evaporate, 'poof'. Luckily it's not a big part of their business.


not so fast james, they might turn into a business opportunity, offer a guarantee on their sold products, have experts check each ounce wouldn;t be too hard and might actually make them some money


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Update: The Royal Canadian Mint says it did not sell this bar.
> 
> http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pm...ays-phoney-gold-bar-was-a-counterfeit-attempt


yes, i thought so. The Royal Canadian Mint is a patrician name for faraway counterfeit artists to select for faking. It's interesting how they managed to fake the packaging so perfectly that it even passed eagle inspector eyes like the royal bank of canada.





> "Boom" goes RBC's gold dealership business. Nobody in their right mind will ever buy physical gold from RBC again. I certainly won't, and I was planning on buying at least 10K in bars in December.


it couldn't possibly be the Royal Bank retail outlet alone. Those fake wafers could be sprinkled everywhere.






> Also, why did this story disappear from the CBC News pages? It's not on the front page, nor under Canada, nor Business.


story will reappear. If it's been pulled, it's probably only for temporary revision purposes.

but look for zerohedge to slither forward with stolen used factoids maybe sometime tomorrow ...


.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

i see all these headlines “this could be huge !” that’s part of the problem since it is gold-bug fever that gins this stuff up ... it’s part of the conspiracy to hold gold prices down

people have been selling and talking about rcm gold counterfeits for years ... and tungsten clad gold goes way back and is a risk anytime you buy gold

the mint should be selling direct to the public but i think they don’t want to mix it with their much more profitable commerative coins ... read: really shitty investments .... they don’t want people buying bullion if they can sell them commemoratives

maybe this will change


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I realize there have been many fakes before, and RCM has been faked before. The big deal here is that *it was sold by RBC*. I wouldn't care if this bar came from Ebay or some other sketchy source. I am not aware of any case before this when a big bank sold counterfeit gold to a customer.

Possible explanations

1. Inside job, crooked RBC employee(s) are swapping counterfeits and pocketing real ones
2. Inside job, crooked Royal Canadian Mint employee(s) are swapping counterfeits and pocketing real ones
3. RBC has been careless when buying back bars from retail, and has bought counterfeits from people, doesn't test them
4. RBC buys their bars from some other source, and that source had counterfeits

Any thoughts which one is happening?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Possible explanations
> 
> 1. Inside job, crooked RBC employee(s) are swapping counterfeits and pocketing real ones
> 2. Inside job, crooked Royal Canadian Mint employee(s) are swapping counterfeits and pocketing real ones
> ...




i tend to think 3) or 4) or both, but the problem then becomes the larger story which is that some wholesale sources & most dealers are contaminated

for parties who bought wafers from RBC that turn out to be fake & these parties kept their invoices & can document the history of such wafers while in their possession, wouldn't royal bank be expected to compensate them? me i would expect royal bank to compensate


.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

The CBC story
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/fake-gold-wafer-rbc-canadian-mint-1.4368801


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

humble_pie said:


> i tend to think 3) or 4) or both, but the problem then becomes the larger story which is that some wholesale sources & most dealers are contaminated
> 
> for parties who bought wafers from RBC that turn out to be fake & these parties kept their invoices & can document the history of such wafers while in their possession, wouldn't royal bank be expected to compensate them? me i would expect royal bank to compensate
> 
> ...


 To big to jail. The US Senate just passed a law preventing banks from being sued.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

OK


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

humble_pie said:


> for parties who bought wafers from RBC that turn out to be fake & these parties kept their invoices & can document the history of such wafers while in their possession, wouldn't royal bank be expected to compensate them? me i would expect royal bank to compensate


Or class action lawsuit against RBC. Selling a fake product or misrepresenting a product, which has very strictly defined expectations (purity level, weight, etc).


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> OK



the plot thickens. Rusty only a few minutes ago this message-deleted space was a full-blown post from yourself alleging that the jeweller dunnit.

RBC was denying that the wafer in the news was actually the wafer it had sold to jeweller Tang, said our Rusty. Plus the wafer's serial number had been obliterated, said Rusty.

idk, the CBC photo shows what appears to be a highly visible serial number on the wafer. There's no source for any denial statement from RBC, which in fact has given mister Tang $1,650 as compensation for his trouble.

whodunnit? this one's going to be a thriller


.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Or class action lawsuit against RBC. Selling a fake product or misrepresenting a product, which has very strictly defined expectations (purity level, weight, etc).



each: jas4 sometimes - rarely but definitely sometimes - u are a bit of a hothead

every company has lived through product defects. OK this was worse than smartphone-battery-bursts-into-flames-while-user-speaks.

if you have royal bank or similar wafers, that's probably good advice, to read the warning page about fakes on the royal mint's own website, then look for the holograms on your own personal wafers. Also don't cut open the packaging, at least not yet.

.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

humble_pie said:


> each: jas4 sometimes - rarely but definitely sometimes - u are a bit of a hothead


The only language these big monopolies speak is lawsuits. They won't fix things out of the goodness of their hearts, nor out of ethical standards. They have to face the threat of lawsuits to take anything seriously...



> if you have royal bank or similar wafers, that's probably good advice, to read the warning page about fakes on the royal mint's own website, then look for the holograms on your own personal wafers. Also don't cut open the packaging, at least not yet.


The average retail customer cannot spot a fake by just looking at it. The onus is not on the customer, it is very much on the dealer.

I make a deal with them, they say they are selling me 1 oz of 99.9% gold and I pay them cash based on a valuation for 99.9% gold. In return, they sell me something that's 1.17% gold. Who is in the wrong?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> The only language these big monopolies speak is lawsuits. They won't fix things out of the goodness of their hearts, nor out of ethical standards. They have to face the threat of lawsuits to take anything seriously...
> 
> 
> The average retail customer cannot spot a fake by just looking at it. The onus is not on the customer, it is very much on the dealer.
> ...




it's just that i don't see anything to be gained by bringing the kettle immediately to full rolling lawsuit boil. There are many steps to take before steam has to start venting.

of course, if the royal bank sold you fake wafers, they are in the wrong. There's no debate about that.

companies recall defective products & compensate their customers all the time. Just in the minutes it's taken me to write this message, dozens, maybe hundreds, of companies all over the world have undertaken to replace, reimburse or otherwise make good on defective goods they've sold.

if it were myself, i'd adopt a wait-&-see approach.

meanwhile, the suggestion to search for the royal canadian mint hologram on wafers you personally own, is meant as a way of easing anxiety as soon as possible. If you were to discover that all your wafers carry the coveted hologram, surely you would feel much better about the situation, no? 

even in a worst case scenario, it would be unlikely that all of your inventory of physical would lack the hologram. At the very least, it would be helpful to have this information.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I just inspected the high resolution photos I keep of bullion bars I've purchased. I really can't tell from these photos if there's any sign that I have any fakes.

Which holograms are you talking about? I'm not aware of any standard hologram marker. The Mint has recently introduced a watermark testing device, but that requires a special instrument and is more of a marketing gimmick at the point of sale.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no simple way for a retail customer (us non-experts) to tell if our gold bars are real. We can look at their size, but we'd have to de-package them to take a closer look at the metal. I just don't think it's feasible for retail customers to tell... visually... if these are real or not.

The guide I found at the Mint web site has extremely simplistic checks, such as looking at lettering and quality of packaging. Sure, obviously, that's a great place to start but it's hardly good enough if the fakes are so good that they made it into RBC, and a precious metal expert at RBC picked it up and sold it to the customer.

In short, other than eyeballing them and checking the dimensions, and packaging quality, I don't think there's much else I can do. Maybe it's time to take the bars to an expert and have them evaluated.


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## zylon (Oct 27, 2010)

Ask the people who sold you the gold, if they'll buy it back.

If they didn't do due diligence before, they will now!


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

james4beach said:


> The only language these big monopolies speak is lawsuits. They won't fix things out of the goodness of their hearts, nor out of ethical standards. They have to face the threat of lawsuits to take anything seriously...
> 
> *The average retail customer cannot spot a fake by just looking at it. The onus is not on the customer, it is very much on the dealer.
> *
> I make a deal with them, they say they are selling me 1 oz of 99.9% gold and I pay them cash based on a valuation for 99.9% gold. In return, they sell me something that's 1.17% gold. Who is in the wrong?


 ... I would simply return the fake wafer to RBC and demand my money back. Why should you be spending $ to get these wafers inspected and re-appraised? Isn't there something like a guarantee of them being 99.9% "real" gold? If not, then they're not different than the forgers/fraudsters.

Or wait to join the classaction suits.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> zerohedge - your original citation, so it appears that reading zerohedge is how you obtain your "news" - is a trash operation that stole the CBC story. There's no mention that the CBC ever sold or gave copyright privilege to zerohedge.
> 
> .


I agree with your assessment of Zero Hedge, news apps often link to their articles so hard to avoid. CBC spews lefty (not Liberal) crap at tax payers expense...hardly unbiased so my feeling for them are similar. 

Still fake gold bars are an issue as well as proper forensics of gold etf's.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> ... Possible explanations ...
> 2. Inside job, crooked Royal Canadian Mint employee(s) are swapping counterfeits and pocketing real ones ...


If this is the case, the second part is why the Mint spokesperson is lying or why the National Post was wrong that the mint didn't sell the bar.

The more likely way for the inside RCM employee job flavour is providing info to ensure the fake was packaged to pass inspection. I suppose they could have made the fake themselves then sold it to RBC but that would likely be traceable.


3, a combo of 3 & 4 or 1 look more likely to me.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> humble_pie said:
> 
> 
> > each: jas4 sometimes - rarely but definitely sometimes - u are a bit of a hothead ...
> ...


I guess that's why when my co-worker's bank account was cleaned out of thousands while out of the country - to be compensated, he had to file a lawsuit. Oh wait ... he said no lawsuit was required.

There is such a thing as making good to avoid bigger costs, where they want to stay in that business.


Cheers


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

was it the jeweller dunnit?

poor mister Tang, he looks so sweet. What kind of a dumb crook would he be though, to openly criticize the august royal bank branch that is situated just across the street from his store. And he is their customer & all.

was that a racist accusation, that the jeweller dunnit? were those blister-pack-perfect wafer fakes manufactured in asia? do we have overtones of racism here?

over there in that corner is the lawyers' lobby. Saying don't waste your time complaining, just Sue the Bejasus out of the Bank. If you don't happen to own any fake golf wafers, make some & join the lawsuit anyhow.

.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I just phoned The Mint's customer support at 1-800-267-1871

I asked, I have these bars and wafers I previously bought. Is there any way for me to tell they're legitimate? The customer service rep said -- no, you'll have to get in contact with a bullion expert (a bullion dealership) and get them to assess the bars.

Who is going to pay for those tests?

I told the Mint that I'm hesitant to buy their products, because RBC is out there selling fakes and I can't be sure I'll be getting a real one from any Canadian bank. The rep said that new Maple Leaf coins have engravings that can be verified by bullion dealers. I asked, what about the coins made more than a year ago? The rep said there is no way to test those.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

And a bigger question, what do I do about the RCM bars that I've bought from other Canadian banks? *Who is going to pay to have all of them tested?*

Or do we assume that only Royal Bank was stupid and unskilled enough to end up accepting counterfeit bars, or only Royal Bank has the poor security measures which allows employees to swap bars. I think if it can happen at RBC, it can happen at any of the big banks.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

james4beach said:


> And a bigger question, what do I do about the RCM bars that I've bought from other Canadian banks? *Who is going to pay to have all of them tested?*
> 
> Or do we assume that only Royal Bank was stupid and unskilled enough to end up accepting counterfeit bars, or only Royal Bank has the poor security measures which allows employees to swap bars. I think if it can happen at RBC, it can happen at any of the big banks.


james, buying physical gold is risky ... buying gold via the central fund of canada is risky as it is with any arm's length entity who says "don't worry we''ve got yer gold right over there in the corner"

all of this is one of the many problem with gold

you can find a bullion dealer and take your stuff in see if they will trade for new gold maples or even old gold maples

get a fisch maples counterfeit checker: https://www.thefisch.com/?content=home

as to the issue pie raises of racism, the chinese have been known and notorious fakers of gold for some time: https://canadiancoinnews.com/chinese-fakers-ante-thick-plating/



> The firm Shenzhen Shun Xin Da Handicraft Co. Ltd., based in the city of Guangdong, has a large offering of “gold-plated tungsten coins” including RCM gold maples and one-ounce bars, United States Mint gold eagles and South African krugerrands.
> The firm is offering the items, with various dates, as “souvenirs” at a price of “$250 to $500” depending on the number ordered and metal prices at the time of the order


.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

^^

very sympathetic here, wish i had more helpful suggestions other than to say that ever-louder complaining chorus from consumers who are affected should bring some benefits before a class action could - many years hence - be heard & ajudicated.

here's an analogy. For several decades, the brokers collected outrageous FX fees in RRSPs & RRIFs. In other accounts as well, but the retirement accounts were "the most egregious," as Canadian Capitalist put it a few years ago.

choir after choir after choir after choir of complaining voices sang in chorus, across many decades, to the IIROC. A few class action suits were launched. Some were settled. The last such case involves BMO Nesbitt. It's not settled yet.

gradually, slowly, in response to the complaints, the broker industry changed. It improved its FX disclosure. It began to cooperate with currency gambit trades. It understood why investors hated FX fees being charged on their USD dividends. The improvements were more due to the complaints than to the class actions, IMHO.

re the wafers, hundreds of thousands of retail buyers of physical are going to have your exact same questions. Who will pay for gold vs fake testing? we are told that this is complicated & expensive. There should be a tsunami of complaints. Join them. 

jas4 i'm sorry that this problem has come along to burden your already-busy life. I wish i could comfort you with a solution. For the time being, the only one i can think of is that, for yourself, any problem you might have is not likely to be widespread. You are a person who has always - i believe - bought physical in small quantities on different occasions, at different times & from different dealers. This reduces the risk of your having a fake specimen even further.

.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Maybe the old high school physics would help? The density of gold is high, 19.32gm/cc. The local drug dealer's scales and a graduated beaker (volume by displacement in water) might give you some sense of whether you have gold without any destructive testing?
I'm honestly not sure if those items provide enough accuracy for small volumes of metal though - James should be ok, I think he has large volumes


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

humble_pie said:


> You are a person who has always - i believe - bought physical in small quantities on different occasions, at different times & from different dealers. This reduces the risk of your having a fake specimen even further


Thanks. Luckily, I've purchased the bars from a variety of big banks and the purchases are spaced out over time. Good diversification here. I think that most of my purchases were before the counterfeiters started flooding the market with RCM counterfeits. (These days those counterfeits are widespread. There was even a recent arrest in Oregon, someone selling counterfeited RCM bars).

Even if I've ended up with fakes, I'm pretty confident that it would be less than 10% of my bullion so really it's not a big deal. But this is a good reminder to myself that physical bullion is not necessarily a better idea than the bullion ETFs that I use, MNT, CEF.A, and IAU in the US.

Still, I'd like to have more confidence in the authenticity of my bullion.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Not sure gold etf's are idiot proof either...http://www.businessinsider.com/theres-no-reason-to-own-a-gold-etf-2016-4


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eder said:


> Not sure gold etf's are idiot proof either...http://www.businessinsider.com/theres-no-reason-to-own-a-gold-etf-2016-4


I agree there are big questions around gold ETFs, but there are risks either way you cut it. In the end, I diversify. I hold some physical gold, which I purchased from different places, and I also own a few different gold ETFs.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

james4beach said:


> I agree there are big questions around gold ETFs, but there are risks either way you cut it. In the end, I diversify. I hold some physical gold, which I purchased from different places, and I also own a few different gold ETFs.


diversify, always the best method ... i do also

those fisch scales for maples really do work, they combine weight and thickness tests and are absolutely accurate


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

jas4 i believe that now is the time for me to plant my favourite bombshell.

this mayhem on finding out that there's no gold in them thar shills is what it's going to feel like when the first moneycentre bank holding thousands of derivative indexes goes down. All those thousands of ETFs will fail. Since they don't actually hold the shares they say they hold. Instead they hold representational samples, swaps, futures, options & index derivatives.

of course many will have loaned out a load of their sample shares - vanguard says it gets 5% return on most of the shares it loans to hedge funds, not the pitiful 2% earned from loan activity by other etfcos - so when the derivatives fail, an etf would still have some hope of getting at least some of its loaners back.


.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Maybe the old high school physics would help? The density of gold is high, 19.32gm/cc. The local drug dealer's scales and a graduated beaker (volume by displacement in water) might give you some sense of whether you have gold without any destructive testing?
> I'm honestly not sure if those items provide enough accuracy for small volumes of metal though - James should be ok, I think he has large volumes


Did you compare with density of tungsten??

Tungsten is 19.3, gold 19.32 g/cc. Need some very accurate measurement to discern the difference.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Not sure you can just make a tungsten bar. Extremely high melting point - think lightbulbs. Though perhaps there's some exotic alloy that is easily made and only costs a reasonable fraction of gold that weighs exactly the same?

Are there exact measurements available from the mint? Get a caliper and measure and weigh - I bet the fakes are off by a few microns or milligrams.

I don't know if a jewelers test can tell pure gold from gold alloy very precicely, nor if the test can discern solid gold from just gold plating. I suspect not.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

peterk said:


> Not sure you can just make a tungsten bar. Extremely high melting point - think lightbulbs. Though perhaps there's some exotic alloy that is easily made and only costs a reasonable fraction of gold that weighs exactly the same?
> 
> Are there exact measurements available from the mint? Get a caliper and measure and weigh - I bet the fakes are off by a few microns or milligrams.
> 
> I don't know if a jewelers test can tell pure gold from gold alloy very precicely, nor if the test can discern solid gold from just gold plating. I suspect not.


From Post #1 this thread, tungsten was apparently used to make fake gold bars. Even if gold was only outer layer, it would be very difficult to discern that bar was not 100% gold by measuring density. Tungsten does have a very high melting point, but it can still be formed into shapes. You can buy Tungsten rods, plates, sheets, etc and have it stamped/formed to custom shapes! Even jewelry, but that is usually Tungsten Carbide which is harder and wears better.



> The last time there was a widespread physical gold counterfeiting scare was in the summer of 2012 when as we reported the discovery of a single 10 oz Tungsten-filled gold bar in Manhattan's jewelry district led to a panic among the dealer community, which then resulted in local jewelry outlets discovering at least ten more fake 10-ounce "gold bars" filled with Tungsten.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

peterk said:


> Not sure you can just make a tungsten bar. Extremely high melting point - think lightbulbs. Though perhaps there's some exotic alloy that is easily made and only costs a reasonable fraction of gold that weighs exactly the same?
> 
> Are there exact measurements available from the mint? Get a caliper and measure and weigh - I bet the fakes are off by a few microns or milligrams.
> 
> I don't know if a jewelers test can tell pure gold from gold alloy very precicely, nor if the test can discern solid gold from just gold plating. I suspect not.


you can test the authenticity of various gold coins by weight, shape, circumference and thickness ... you can't produce a fake that passes all these tests ... a tungsten core will always throw one of these metrics off


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm pretty certain that an expert, someone who regularly handles gold coins and bars, can tell whether something is likely a fake. I posted a video earlier that shows some of this reasoning, for example the 'ping' test, seeing what a bar or coin sounds like when you strike it.

The quality of the shine. Details of workmanship.

But still, you need to go and pay an expert for any of this.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

fatcat said:


> you can test the authenticity of various gold coins by weight, shape, circumference and thickness ... you can't produce a fake that passes all these tests ... a tungsten core will always throw one of these metrics off


Those measurement will tell you if the fake has been made inaccurately. However, if an accurate physical copy, seems you need the Ringer to really tell the difference if coin contains Tungsten (weight virtually same as gold).

https://www.thefisch.com/

Maybe James needs a Ringer? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boB4yyS-fDk


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The first thing I need is a competent bank who employs experts (not novices) in precious metals. Then I can be sure I'm buying from a trustworthy source.

RBC is not a trustworthy source.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> I just phoned The Mint's customer support at 1-800-267-1871 ...
> 
> I told the Mint that I'm hesitant to buy their products, because RBC is out there selling fakes and I can't be sure I'll be getting a real one from any Canadian bank. The rep said that new Maple Leaf coins have engravings that can be verified by bullion dealers. I asked, what about the coins made more than a year ago? The rep said there is no way to test those.



a possible coping strategy although it is one aitch of a lot of work.

first to check out if what the rep said above is really true. I'm not aware of any kind of engraving that can't be reproduced or faked. So the first thing to find out is whether this is just a complex, difficult-to-copy engraving or whether it really is a reliable test for new Maple Leaf gold coins.

if the above engraving safety feature is true, the next step is to gradually sell back to the dealers - or anybody who will buy them - the worrisome specimens. Won't be able to sell now, have to wait for the news uproar to die down. Maybe wait as long a year or two, depends. But work towards getting rid of them at current prices.

next - having determined that the new engravings are indeed flawlessly reliable authenticators of gold purity - one would replace the old coins with these new authenticated Maple Leafs. One might then be able to sleep easy with what is supposed, after all, to be an eternal, fad-proof store of value.

.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

james4beach said:


> The first thing I need is a competent bank who employs experts (not novices) in precious metals. Then I can be sure I'm buying from a trustworthy source.
> 
> RBC is not a trustworthy source.


james, you are huffing and puffing here ... counterfeits and fakes have been around since man discovered gold ... even trustworthy vendors get stiffed and may miss counterfeits ... you need to do your due diligence when you get hands on the product ... to my knowledge nobody has produced an impeccable fake of a maple bar that is sealed ... i strongly suspect but can't prove that this guys bar had tell-tale signs that it was phony just from looking at it

get a fisch scale and maybe the ringer and only buy maples from someone like bullion people in toronto where you can walk in look at the product, test it and take it home

and as pie has said, just sell back the other coins if you are that paranoid ... though frankly, why eat the buy-sell spread ?

one of the reasons this story is making so much news is that this doesn't happen very often

james, i'm gonna bet that since you are ultra-conservative and buy at well known dealers 100% of your coins are genuine and you are fussing for no reason


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

fatcat said:


> james, you are huffing and puffing here ... counterfeits and fakes have been around since man discovered gold ... *even trustworthy vendors get stiffed and may miss counterfeits ... you need to do your due diligence when you get hands on the product *... to my knowledge nobody has produced an impeccable fake of a maple bar that is sealed ... i strongly suspect but can't prove that this guys bar had tell-tale signs that it was phony just from looking at it
> 
> get a fisch scale and maybe the ringer and only buy maples from someone like bullion people in toronto where you can walk in look at the product, test it and take it home
> 
> ...


 ... in this case, can he sell back those *genuine *wafers + coins to RBC and well known dealers? Shouldn't be a problem then.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

fatcat, no that's nuts -- this is entirely RBC's responsibility. Why should I get a tool or doo-dad to check the bars? They should be using a high quality tester tool to test THEIR inventory before selling it to the public. And they definitely should be testing any bar that they receive from the public, before agreeing to buy it.

They're a bank, they're supposed to know what they're doing.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> this is entirely RBC's responsibility ... They should be using a high quality tester tool to test THEIR inventory before selling it to the public.
> 
> They're a bank, they're supposed to know what they're doing.



i have no personal experience but i would tend to compare the selling of precious metals in retail marketing operations to the selling of fine art by art galleries.

art works are constantly being copied & faked. When a buyer of a work of art purchases from a known gallery but the item turns out to be a fake - or it turns out to be a stolen item, which is just as red-hot a news trail - the usual procedure is for the gallery to take back the item & refund the purchase price to the disappointed consumer.

i am not sure what is done about the costs of authenticating the provenance of a disputed work of art. These costs would normally be higher, per dollar invested, than the costs of finding a reputable dealer to test a few wafers of gold. Faked & stolen artworks are often international stories, so i would imagine that costs of investigation soar through the roof at that point.

my best guess is that these costs of investigation & proof have to be fully borne by a disappointed art buyer. Whether a gallery that sold him a faked artwork or a stolen artwork would then be required to reimburse the costs of authenticating the artwork, i do not know.

.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

humble_pie said:


> i have no personal experience but i would tend to compare the selling of precious metals in retail marketing operations to the selling of fine art by art galleries.
> 
> art works are constantly being copied & faked. When a buyer of a work of art purchases from a known gallery but the item turns out to be a fake - or it turns out to be a stolen item, which is just as red-hot a news trail - the usual procedure is for the gallery to take back the item & refund the purchase price to the disappointed consumer.


I don't think it's the same at all. In my view this whole thing is an unjustifiable failing on RBC's part.

There's a big difference between standard unit gold bars and fine art. The gold has very specific physical and chemical properties, and must be pure. There are machines that can test these, like the one shown in this video that checks the metal composition at the surface. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=kg0mxUC1trY

No similarly simple testing is available for works of art, nor for automobiles, or houses. But *there is* for gold -- it just requires some expensive equipment and a well trained operator. That's absolutely what RBC should be doing and they are being irresponsible by not checking like this.

That machine in the video took 10 seconds to test, and said: 1% gold, 10% zinc, 87% copper, 2% nickel. The Thermo Scientific Niton XL2 costs about 20K to 30K.

It's RBC's responsibility to assure the authenticity of the product they are selling. It's not hard to do, and it is the responsibility of the dealer.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I don't think it's the same at all. *In my view this whole thing is an unjustifiable failing on RBC's part.
> *
> There's a big difference between standard unit gold bars and fine art. The gold has very specific physical and chemical properties, and must be pure. There are machines that can test these, like the one shown in this video that checks the metal composition at the surface. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=kg0mxUC1trY
> 
> ...


 ...+1. I guess RBC doesn't care of its credibility nor reputation considering it is Canada's "biggest" bank.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm not an expert in these machines (that's the whole point of course... the dealer is supposed to be the expert) but a quick note that the surface xray test, like the XL2 machine, only test the surface. They won't catch a fake that's plated with pure gold. There are superior machines too, like ultrasound testers and a variety of other machines, plus of course the keen observation of an expert.

The message is: an expert, with good equipment, can indeed test and verify authenticity. It isn't rocket science; these are chunks of pure metal. The precious metals dealer is supposed to be the expert.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

your wrath is righteous james ... shall we call you Bullion Man ? ... but your cause is hopeless

you can’t return the bullion because unless you have serials tied to receipts they are going to say “that ain’t our gold man” ... no way rbc takes anything back, they just call their 867 lawyers

maybe class action but then you got to provide proof of purchase and spend a lot of time etc etc

why not just assume what will undoubtedly be the case, that your bars and rounds are almost certainly genuine and be cautious going forward

i recently sold 4 ounces to a local dealer in my local bank (we did the deal in one of the rooms in the bank) and he barely glanced at my maples ... just gave a quick once over, no ringing, no fisch scales

this verification of authenticity is on the buyer and there isn’t a lot of it going on because this kind of counterfeit is mostly very rare


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I keep my receipts and paperwork from each purchase. I can definitely prove where I bought my gold. By the way I agree that the counterfeits are rare.

I think humble pie has a point too about (some) ETFs that will turn out to be hollow forgeries. The exotic ones, I mean.

In the end all our investment vehicles carry risks of some kind.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

james4beach said:


> I keep my receipts and paperwork from each purchase. I can definitely prove where I bought my gold. By the way I agree that the counterfeits are rare.
> 
> I think humble pie has a point too about (some) ETFs that will turn out to be hollow forgeries. The exotic ones, I mean.
> 
> In the end all our investment vehicles carry risks of some kind.


but, is there some way to tie a specific receipt to a specific gold bar or coin ? that seems a tough one to me ...


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

fatcat said:


> but, is there some way to tie a specific receipt to a specific gold bar or coin ? that seems a tough one to me ...


Looking at the scans of my purchase receipts, I see that one or two of them include the bar's serial # on the receipt. So those are a solid trace to an exact bar. Most don't, however.

Maybe the next time I purchase a bar, I'll have the agent write the bar's serial # onto the receipt. The RCM bars have the serial number embossed in the gold.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

The supposedly fake gold bar was reportedly in a sealed plastic sleeve purportedly from the mint. Is RBC supposed to unseal all wafers from the mint and test for purity. Are they to do the same when they receive a similiar sealed package from a client? I know on larger bars they check once they are received in their gold dept. I can't speak to the volume of wafers they deal with daily or how much they have in inventory as to what this would entail.
My bet is that RBC is likely the safest place to buy gold right now. From my experience there, they are not taking this lightly and are working with the RCMP and the mint to trace the source of this wafer. They are also very likely implementing new procedures and checking all inventory for authenticity. They are extremely proactive when **** like this threatens their reputation. I would bet anybar you buy in the next six months will be tested and confirmed.

Having a serial number on a gold bar match up to a serial number noted on a receipt as proof of purchase does not mean much.
As a professional counterfeiter, I buy a wafer at the RBC, I make 5 exact copies using tungsten with a little gold on the surface. 
I take my receipt with a fake bar back to the RBC and sell it back. Hey the receipt and bar serial number match. And likely they will not test a wafer - too low a denomination - no one will counterfeit that. And the guys got a receipt.
I do the same with 4 other dealers using my RBC purchase receipt. I can even fake the nice sealed mint package.
I now have the money from 5 sales plus most of my original purchased bar.
Easy to do because no one will check carefully because what idiot would go to the trouble counterfeiting small bars. And counterfeiting bars is an intensive process so in theory why do it for small bars. Then one of the fakes gets sold to a jeweler and crap hits the fan. Hopefully I made enough because now everything will get tested for a while at least then things may slavk off a bit.

The same used to apply to money. Everyone checked 50 and 100s for fake but who would check 5's.
Too much trouble in theory to duplicate and pass 5's in enough volume to get away with it and make money. But the guys that did managed to do it for 10+ years.

In terms of special engravings or whatever on the maple leaf coin... Remember when credit cards came out with that hologram a number of years ago to foil the bad guys? When first introduced, Visa thought it would be about 18 months before it could be duplicated. It actually took about a month.
Dont bet on the safety or surety of any new security measure for long.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

twa2w said:


> The supposedly fake gold bar was reportedly in a sealed plastic sleeve purportedly from the mint. Is RBC supposed to unseal all wafers from the mint and test for purity. Are they to do the same when they receive a similiar sealed package from a client?


RBC knows where they buy each unit from. It either comes from the Mint (very high trust) or another client (low trust). This counterfeit wafer came from another client or intermediary, not the Mint. Absolutely RBC should open, inspect and test it. That's what places like Kitco do. Wanting to keep gold sealed up in plastic packaging is more like what the non-expert retail buyers want.

If you look around the internet you will see that there are many instances reported of fake RCM bars of this type. This is a known counterfeiting problem. They even caught some people doing this here in Oregon, and there are videos online of people finding other fakes. With the knowledge that this kind of bar is known to be counterfeited, RBC should have absolutely opened up and inspected the gold.

Or at least once the counterfeiting problem in the market was known (mid to late 2016), RBC should have started aggressively testing their inventory. Again... my problem is RBC's lack of professionalism and lack of expertise. They are a gold dealer, a giant bank. They should be on top of the game, knowing what counterfeiting threats exist in the market.

There are two types of plastic packaging for these kinds of bars. One is the original plastic encasement from the refiner, like the Mint. The other are shrink wrapped/vacuum seals that are done after a bar is inspected/tested. I have bought several of the latter from Scotiabank over the years. One of them even shows a mark from a past acid test (harmless, just cosmetic).

This whole incident shows a lack of standards and controls at RBC. Again,

Armoured truck with gold shipment arrives from the Mint --> trusted --> original packaging left alone
Armoured truck with gold shipment arrives from another refiner --> trusted --> original packaging left alone
*Customer sells gold to bank --> untrusted (esp when RCM wafer fakes are a known problem) --> testing required*


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

james4beach said:


> If you look around the internet you will see that there are many instances reported of fake RCM bars of this type. This is a known counterfeiting problem.


If, as you say, there is a known counterfeiting problem, investors (and especially conservative investors) should steer clear of buying physical gold. Not only could it be counterfeit, but it poses storage problems/costs if you want to avoid theft. Personally, I have never owned physical gold in any form and don't intend to.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Not too safe buying the gold mines either with every 2 bit 3rd world nation shaking down Barrick & Goldcorp for a taste of the profits.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Goldmoney.com so far is the most practical way to own gold in vaults around the world of your choosing. 

If want to hold something valuable that is easily movable wont set off the metal detectors diamonds is the way to go. Though way to much slippage in transaction costs & testing to check value for my investing


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Part of the problem here is we do not know the full story. This bar may very well have come from the mint. If a guy can smuggle muffin size lumps of gold out of the mint in his ***, I could see bars being switched out easily enough.
I can also think of several other possibilities.

The other issue with testing sealed wafers is clients like to buy the wafers in those nice little sealed packages.

James, you could always try biting all your wafers with your canines. You should be able to make an impression and you could do this through the plastic packaging. You would not be able to do that with a near pure tungsten bar. Although if a tungsten bar had a thick enough pure gold coating it might pass this test. But I suspect any counterfeiters would use as little and as low a grade as possible to reduce cost. - Just enough to look good enough to pass visual inspection.

If they were smarter they would use purer gold on the surface. Testing machines are not perfect. Nor is the acid test. If the bars are gold coated properly they could pass the acid test and the scanner.

FWIW in my past having worked for both RBC and Scotia, I would trust RBC custodial and procedural processes more than I would Scotia. But it has been a while and every bank has procedural breakdowns. It happens with volume and with any human interaction.
The banks may treat this like they do debit and credit fraud. Easier and cheaper to reimburse clients and write off than to pay the cost for prevention( nigh on impossible).


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

twa2w said:


> ...
> 
> The banks may treat this like they do debit and credit fraud. Easier and cheaper to reimburse clients and write off than to pay the cost for prevention( nigh on impossible).


 ... exactly. Actually the banks don't need to write off the costs or be out of pocket if they can return the gold to the mint and get their money back. Maybe double dip?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

You're right, we still don't know the whole story. If it turns out this counterfeit came from the Mint, there are going to be a world of problems for the Royal Canadian Mint.


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## zylon (Oct 27, 2010)

> Alex Reeves, a spokesperson for the crown corporation, said the mint “did not manufacture, ship, or sell” the one-ounce bar, even though it appeared to be stamped with an official mint insignia.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/fake...ch-royal-canadian-mint-investigates-1.3658491


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Curiouser and curiouer. Not sure how they can be so sure unless they have more info that we are not being told.
We may never know what the real story is, unless someone is charged.
Sounds like a pretty decent fake to visually fool a jeweler and goldsmith who, I would presume, buy gold on a regular basis.
Rogue bank employee somewhere in the custody chain, rogue employee at armoured car company. Improper procedure ie one client sells to branch. Branch, rather than return to gold dept for verification, it is sold to clients in the article when he perhaps comes to branch the same or next day. Could be any number of things.
There are very few branches that would or should hold any inventory. Most is shipped to and from a central department as ordered by clients. Gold purchased is shipped as well and clients are normally paid once rec'd at gold center and verifed. Or at least that used to be the process.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

lol, "unfortunate situation"... they refunded the buyer and think the world's gold trading community is going to forget about this. As if we're all going to forget about this... good luck with that!

Either RBC's inventory is tainted, or the Mint is compromised by an insider selling fake bars. Both are absolutely serious.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Unless it is an inside job or an initial test run by the counterfeiter, I suspect more than RBC inventory is tainted.
Or perhaps j4b is correct and RBC has horrible procedures relative to every other dealer. 
My thinking is that tungsten bars would require some technical expertise and some expensive equipment to be able to duplicate the gold bars as well as duplicate the sealed plastic sleeve.
So not inexpensive. Which means they would need to produce a fair number of bars to make it worthwhile.
I cannot see the crooks using just one dealer as the risks are too high unless they are a big group and sprinkle the sales around a lot of branches. Unlikely in my opinion.
Unless this has been caught early, I suspect there may be a lot out there.
The banks are quietly checking inventories as no doubt are other gold dealers. Any suspect bars will be pulled and written off. And the banks will assure everyone their inventories are clean.
Not sure what will happen with large holdings for etfs and gold funds though. Might see a devaluation if this is large enough.


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## new dog (Jun 21, 2016)

james4beach said:


> I agree there are big questions around gold ETFs, but there are risks either way you cut it. In the end, I diversify. I hold some physical gold, which I purchased from different places, and I also own a few different gold ETFs.


The same gold has been sold and resold many times by central banks and it is said they probably have taken most of the gold in GLD as well in order to keep their price suppression scam going. The biggest scam in the world is gold and silver and it will come to light one day when the world monetary system collapses and everyone is forced to show what they have.


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## zylon (Oct 27, 2010)

*Sigma Metalytics Gold & Silver Verifier*

*$750 USD* gets you a precious metals verifier. He didn't say so in this video, but I think it also tests platinum and palladium.

No need to remove metals from packaging to do the test.

Any reputable coin / PM dealer will have this on the premises. I don't know how RBC screwed this up so badly. It probably shouldn't surprise me, as staff at my local RBC are absolutely clueless about metals. Scotia Bank folks are way more on the ball, but their premiums are prohibitive.

Testing of the Sigma Metalytics Gold & Silver Verifier (12 minutes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gUiCsUc-j4

Also, five minutes with Eric Griffin at ITM Trading.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCp1kBr26tw


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Fake gold? Could be worse...

Why Are Critics Calling the $450 Million Painting Fake?

One difference though, you can still ultimately check that a chunk of pure gold is actually gold. Just costs some money in tools.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Maybe not if he has some (fraud) insurance on it. You know the ultra-rich do have special ways/privileges than the rest of the world.


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