# Tipping is so dumb?



## BigMonkey (May 31, 2016)

I completely disagree with tipping especially in Canada. It feels like an obligation doing a their job of bringing the food or opening my bottled beer. Especially having been overseas in Europe and Asia where service is as good if not better and tipping is considered rude.

I think it is a common misconception that waiters and waitress are poor individuals that don't make a lot of money especially since they get close to min wage. In talking to my friends who are and have been in the industry, it seems like a slow night might be $40-60 on top of their hourly wage and good night being $600-$1000+/night for 4-7 hours of work. Though they probably only report around 10% of their hour wage as tip. I know some people who now make decent living (6 figures) and said they made more serving than they do now.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I prefer the European model. The true price is listed upfront, and pay is distributed by management like in any dignified industry

With the tipping model you can have people under tipping for reasons entirely out of the server's control (food quality or speed of service) or over tipping for self-serving reasons (expectation of foot kissing or image crafting) It needlessly complicates income taxes and claimable work expenses etc. Most people just overtip to be safe, but some chose to pay less for the same service. Once tipping becomes expected like in Canada now it is pointless. And in Canada now management often forces the servers to pay back a % of total sales regardless of actual tips. What a mess

Imagine if tipping was used for all industries? You would probably find it degrading, because it is.


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

And servers deal with A h les everyday.

Tell me you are good people to serve.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

My student daughter worked a summer job as a hostess in a busy, upscale restaurant. Based on what she reported, I think your numbers are exaggerated. Remember that tips are shared among staff. Everyone who works the shift gets a percentage: kitchen crew, hostesses, the guy who does the dishes, etc.

Waiting is a back breaking job. My daughter, a fit teenager, was dead tired by the end of her shifts. She was running non-stop between tables and kitchen, without a moment to catch her breath. Whatever tips she got, she more than earned them.

I don't know about Asia, but Europe is a poor guiding stick. European servers are well paid before tips. This is definitely not true here: servers get less than a minimum wage.

I'm as frugal as they come (8-9 out of 10), but I don't hesitate to tip the customary 20% for good service.

Be frugal. Don't be cheap.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

^^^ That said, I would support the European model if it can be adopted here. The change has to come from within the industry.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

BM + 1

When @ home I would never work an hour or 2 extra just pay someone to come to my house to carry the food to the table that I had made. It is something I can easily do.

When I have eaten @ fast food joint I do not find it hard to carry the food from the counter to the table. Yet some figure that a server should be given a 20% tip for such a hard job that might take a minute or 2 yet the guy paying the bill might have to work several hours @ a job just to cover the tip.

The owner of the restaurant is not where the easy money is it is in being the server


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Again, the servers get a percentage of the tip, not the full tip. A good chunk of the tip goes to the kitchen.

Any job looks easy when you are not the one doing it. There is nothing easy about serving a full restaurant room on a busy night. By serving I don't mean just the waiting staff. The heavy lifting happens in the kitchen. You can't see them but they "serve" you too. So does the guy who washes the dishes.

Try taking one of these jobs for a spin if you think they are easy and lucrative. Go ahead, try it.


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## Chica (Jan 19, 2016)

It's just not wait staff in restaurants. I tip my hairdresser and when I go to the spa for a massage or other treatment. Also the tour guide when I'm on an excursion in another country. One time when a shuttle bus driver waited for us to finish checking our car rental back in so he could drive us back to a cruise ship terminal. The car rental shuttle goes once an hour, so his kindness saved us sitting around in their office until his next run. That was worth a few bucks. I'm also just as likely not to tip if the service was really bad. I can think of less than 5 times in my life where that's happened. And countless other times where I tipped less than I normally would for decent service.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Pay people properly and include the cost in the bill. Everyone else is expected to do their job properly and well without gratuities, it is extremely degrading to think that wait staff would do a poor job without the promise of tips.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Pay people properly and include the cost in the bill. Everyone else is expected to do their job properly and well without gratuities, it is extremely degrading to think that wait staff would do a poor job without the promise of tips.


I agree but the restaurant industry is not there. Withholding the tip isn't going to influence the industry; it won't notice. They only people who notice are the ones who serve you for less than the minimum wage. And yes, they DO notice, each and every time. 

Until the industry changes its practices, the honorable choice is either to tip or to stay home. Not to tip is an assholish behaviour.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

GoldStone said:


> Waiting is a back breaking job. My daughter, a fit teenager, was dead tired by the end of her shifts. She was running non-stop between tables and kitchen, without a moment to catch her breath. Whatever tips she got, she more than earned them.
> 
> I don't know about Asia, but Europe is a poor guiding stick. European servers are well paid before tips. This is definitely not true here: servers get less than a minimum wage.
> 
> ...


To be clear.. I would rather see the full price listed up front and know that all servers are paid fairly, and that I'm paying the same as everyone else rather than subsidizing cheapskates etc

Would you rather your daughter be paid based on how the patrons subjectively judged her appearance, revealing clothing and flirtatious behaviour or by normal metrics judged by her employers such as experience, performance etc.. Would you rather she was paid a reasonable wage by her employer or 20% tip before having to "tip out" a percentage of her sales regardless of actual tip?

I'm surprised Canadians aren't outraged with this degrading system that mismatches Canadian values in 2018. It wouldn't be hard at all to change if it became a popular opinion


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

m3s said:


> Would you rather your daughter be paid based on how the patrons subjectively judged her appearance, revealing clothing and flirtatious behaviour or by normal metrics judged by her employers such as experience, performance etc.. Would you rather she was paid a reasonable wage by her employer or 20% tip before having to "tip out" a percentage of her sales regardless of actual tip?


Of course. These are rhetorical questions.

My point is, withholding a tip doesn't influence industry practices. The only people who "get the message" are powerless folks working for less than the minimum wage.

Feel strongly about tips? Start a political campaign to change the system. Don't stiff your waiter and the kitchen crew.


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## BigMonkey (May 31, 2016)

GoldStone said:


> My student daughter worked a summer job as a hostess in a busy, upscale restaurant. Based on what she reported, I think your numbers are exaggerated. Remember that tips are shared among staff. Everyone who works the shift gets a percentage: kitchen crew, hostesses, the guy who does the dishes, etc.
> 
> Waiting is a back breaking job. My daughter, a fit teenager, was dead tired by the end of her shifts. She was running non-stop between tables and kitchen, without a moment to catch her breath. Whatever tips she got, she more than earned them.
> 
> ...


While the range of tips does greatly vary by location, city, restaurants, cliental. I did not exaggerate my numbers, I merely chose 2 ends of the spectrums to relay my point. On the lower end you have more average looking individuals in a more casual family restaurant. But the $1,000+ tip is what a looking bartender takes home on a good night (this person I know works at an upscale steakhouse). 

Example broken down by math:
Let's say an individual oversees 5 tables with table that has 4 chairs. The avg turnover of table is approx. 1 hour. This equates to 20 customers waited on per hour. Lets say this establishment is mid range with the avg bill being $40 after tax drinks appetizers and the average person tips 15%. This waiter/waitress would receive an avg of $6 tip per customer x 20 cust/hr = $120/hour. In a 6 hour shift = $720 tip collected. 

$120/hour cash at 40% marginal tax rate is equivalent of finding a job that pays around $200/hr. Oh yes, almost forgot + their min wage of ~$11 dollars/hr. equaling to $211/hr pre-tax


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

m3s said:


> To be clear.. I would rather see the full price listed up front and know that all servers are paid fairly, and that I'm paying the same as everyone else rather than subsidizing cheapskates etc
> 
> Would you rather your daughter be paid based on how the patrons subjectively judged her appearance, revealing clothing and flirtatious behaviour or by normal metrics judged by her employers such as experience, performance etc.. Would you rather she was paid a reasonable wage by her employer or 20% tip before having to "tip out" a percentage of her sales regardless of actual tip?
> 
> I'm surprised Canadians aren't outraged with this degrading system that mismatches Canadian values in 2018. It wouldn't be hard at all to change if it became a popular opinion


It wouldn't be hard to change the practice of men paying more tips to young women who smile and chat and show some leg?? Good luck...

There is no "problem" with tipping culture, per say. The problem is only in the heads of people who go through mental anguish every time they feel "forced" to pay more for a bill they are not absolutely compelled to pay by law, as they rack their brains for any justification to tip less without "feeling guilty", resulting in hundred of newspaper articles and policy proposals for government intervention, to alleviate the unfairness of it all. :rolleyes2:

In practice, you could leave absolutely zero tip every time, be a repeat customer, and the worst that will happen is you might receive slower service and fewer smiles. 

Tipping culture also not only brings us better service, but better restaurants too. Bad restaurants who have bad food or logistics will have the servers incur the brunt of the wrath from customers, through poor tipping. This results in no one wanting to work there, and the restaurant spiraling into an even worse state of being understaffed, and soon bankruptcy. Phew.

If all servers made the same money they wouldn't care where they worked. Bad restaurants would fester for much longer, subjecting unwitting visitors to their greasy fares, while great restaurants would struggle to keep enough staff (who would want to be overworked at a busy, popular restaurant?) and the good places would struggle to be good.


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## BigMonkey (May 31, 2016)

peterk said:


> It wouldn't be hard to change the practice of men paying more tips to young women who smile and chat and show some leg?? Good luck...
> 
> There is no "problem" with tipping culture, per say. The problem is only in the heads of people who go through mental anguish every time they feel "forced" to pay more for a bill they are not absolutely compelled to pay by law, as they rack their brains for any justification to tip less without "feeling guilty", resulting in hundred of newspaper articles and policy proposals for government intervention, to alleviate the unfairness of it all. :rolleyes2:
> 
> ...


While I agree things might be extremely chaotic during the initial change due to the flight of better servers to other restaurants that allow tipping. I disagree that tipping results in better service. Having been both in Europe and Asia where tipping is frowned upon, I found European and Asia service is on average better than North America.

Why? Because the lack of tipping removed the quantity component of their work. They were less rushed in general due not trying to cover take on as many tables as possible (which results in higher compensation in the tipping model). This resulted more genuine greeting & discussions (rather than the fake flirt at the end during bill payments), more time devoted to each customer since they had less incentive to take on as many tables as possible, and they actually fill your water up (In North America, I found generally establishments were less likely to give you water refills because they want you to keep running up that tab with more rounds of alcohol; higher bill = higher tip)


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

GoldStone said:


> Until the industry changes its practices, the honorable choice is either to tip or to stay home. Not to tip is an assholish behaviour.


 If you want to be a wimp & do the political correct thing tip. If you respect yourself & understand that you do not have to work an hour or 2 just for supplying someone a job for a few minutes you will not leave a tip. If someone is working for $14 an hour & the server spends 5 minutes serving them perhaps an appropriate max tip would be 1% - 10% that the $14 an hour worker makes after taxes for working the same amount of time @ your job. Which wold probably work out to about $.02 per a minute the server spends with you. 

After taxes someone making $14 an hour is probably making less then .25 cents a minute. If they take their family out for supper & the bill comes to $100 why should they be expected to leave $20 tip to someone your helping to supply a job to that only spend maybe max 5 minutes serving you? People should have some respect for themselves & not treat themselves like crap compared to the server.

If you do not respect yourself go for it leave the big tip.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

I always think that tipping is a joke, we are paying lots to eat/drink out already. $6-7 for a beer with my meal and I'm supposed to give another $1.20 to the server. If you want to tip I think 10% is lots. 20% is ridiculous. I think the 20% thing got started by the servers receiving the tips. Maybe you should tip your mechanic 20% of the repair bill too.


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## hboy54 (Sep 16, 2016)

So the typical waitress is 20 years old, well endowed, and making $211/hour. LOL. Not at the places I frequent.

Around Christmas, my wife and I often leave $50 tip on a $40 bill. One woman, maybe 45, got a bit teary eyed and thanked us profusely. Then she came back and said the money would be "put to good use." What possible difference could $50 make? I and most of the rest of you hanging out here are so far beyond typical in our wealth that we have no idea any more of the reality of most.

Hboy54


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## dotnet_nerd (Jul 1, 2009)

peterk said:


> In practice, you could leave absolutely zero tip every time, be a repeat customer, and the worst that will happen is you might receive slower service and fewer smiles *and some spit/snot etc*


There, I fixed it for you.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

hboy54 said:


> I and most of the rest of you hanging out here are so far beyond typical in our wealth that we have no idea any more of the reality of most.
> 
> Hboy54


Tru dat.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

It is what it is. I suspect most of us just add up the potential costs of a dinner out and make our decisions. The tax is about as annoying as the tips.

Whatever the costs are the real unfortuneate part is that all those extra costs, tips and taxes and maybe even cab rides, are added up and the final total is then compared to the benefits for all of it. With that final cost in mind, I make my decisions on whether it is worth it or not. As those costs get higher and higher, the decision to not bother with any of it becomes more frequent. 

So it kind of reduces the demand for these services by the tips being there. Now does our economy benefit more if my money is redirected from a waitress to an extra dinner out that I might take. Probably not by much. I would say that what would happen is instead of one waitress getting a significant increase above minimum wage, for their work from tips, you might see an increase in demand where two waitresses get exactly minimum wage. Probably a little better for the economy but not by a whole lot. Anyway, I don't think much about the tip and tax, etc., I think more about going out or not going out. 

I suppose I have a lot more money because it has all got priced way above what it is worth.


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

You really enjoy under paying employees. Guess you own a business that under pays your employees.

Shame on you.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

OptsyEagle said:


> It is what it is. I suspect most of us just add up the potential costs of a dinner out and make our decisions. The tax is about as annoying as the tips.
> 
> Whatever the costs are the real unfortuneate part is that all those extra costs, tips and taxes and maybe even cab rides, are added up and the final total is then compared to the benefits for all of it. With that final cost in mind, I make my decisions on whether it is worth it or not. As those costs get higher and higher, the decision to not bother with any of it becomes more frequent.
> 
> ...


 Well worded OE also eating out or going out for drinks is something I do not really enjoy. If I do my own cooking I can eat healthier. If I go out for drinks the next day I feel like crap so why spend a lot of money on something that I do not like any how ?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

peterk said:


> It wouldn't be hard to change the practice of men paying more tips to young women who smile and chat and show some leg?? Good luck...
> 
> There is no "problem" with tipping culture, per say. The problem is only in the heads of people who go through mental anguish every time they feel "forced" to pay more for a bill they are not absolutely compelled to pay by law, as they rack their brains for any justification to tip less without "feeling guilty", resulting in hundred of newspaper articles and policy proposals for government intervention, to alleviate the unfairness of it all. :rolleyes2:
> 
> ...


Peter, you would almost convince me if the countries where it is not customary (and indeed offensive) to tip had bad or worse restaurants. They do not. Like any business, restaurants rely on customer satisfaction and repeat business. Plenty of bad restaurants have no trouble getting wait staff.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

OptsyEagle said:


> It is what it is. I suspect most of us just add up the potential costs of a dinner out and make our decisions. The tax is about as annoying as the tips.


I don't find the tips annoying.

1. I can eat at home and not pay them.
2. I can pay less than 20% or nothing at all if I get poor service.
3. I know that servers and kitchen folks are a lot poorer than I am. They can use a bit of help. I consider it money well spent.

Taxes? Don't get me started. I live in Ottawa and have many acquaintances in the government. Oh, the stories I've heard about the place. Waste is rampant.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

^^ I am really surprise that you guys are saying this about non-tipping cultures being better service? I've only had limited experience abroad, 2 week in central Europe and a month in south America. It seemed quite clear to me that restaurant service in the United States (the best) & Canada soared past all of these places, with the exception of Cancun (biggest tips of all?).

Also keep in mind our restaurant experiences abroad are likely both higher-end and touristy. It might not be nice to think about because it interferes with the idea that restaurant staff are good at their job because they're dedicated without desiring the money, or because we've inspired them to be that way with our winning personalities... But you're an "American" when you enter these joints, and they all know it, and they all know how much Americans like to leave tips...


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

GoldStone said:


> I don't find the tips annoying.
> 
> 1. I can eat at home and not pay them.
> 2. I can pay less than 20% or nothing at all if I get poor service.
> ...


That is exactly what I said. I can eat at home and not pay them and because of the total cost of a dinner out, the home option becomes all that much more appealing to me. I think the economists call that "price elasticity". Annoying may not be the right word, but the total cost is sometimes annoying and to say one part of it is OK but the other is objectionable is a little biased in my opinion.


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## Chica (Jan 19, 2016)

peterk said:


> ^^ I am really surprise that you guys are saying this about non-tipping cultures being better service? I've only had limited experience abroad, 2 week in central Europe and a month in south America. It seemed quite clear to me that restaurant service in the United States (the best) & Canada soared past all of these places, with the exception of Cancun (biggest tips of all?).
> 
> Also keep in mind our restaurant experiences abroad are likely both higher-end and touristy. It might not be nice to think about because it interferes with the idea that restaurant staff are good at their job because they're dedicated without desiring the money, or because we've inspired them to be that way with our winning personalities... But you're an "American" when you enter these joints, and they all know it, and they all know how much Americans like to leave tips...


Generally speaking I agree. I can remember outstanding restaurant service in the US more than I can think about in Canada. And in some countries where tipping is not a thing - China comes to mind - I have encountered the worst slowest service possible. 

Tipping abolished in some countries because it's an upper/lower class thing and the difference between the haves and have nots, and that people shouldn't be looked at as better or worse because of their income and tipping others who are beneath them in the hierarchy of life. I agree that people should be treated equally no matter their position in life, but I also like to think that people who have extra money and can afford to eat out should be allowed to tip (help out) people who are in a lower income range who need a hand, and a few bucks extra in tips might make the difference between them covering that month's bills.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Except servers are not the ones doing the hard work--that's the back of house staff. And they have to survive on low wages and the crumbs that servers are forced the share.

Would you fly an airline where you were expected to slip the pilot 20% of the airfare for good service? It's just nuts.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

peterk said:


> It wouldn't be hard to change the practice of men paying more tips to young women who smile and chat and show some leg?? Good luck...


If you built the "gratuities" into the advertised price, then this practice would soon be considered weird and creepy. It is probably part of why tipping for no apparent reason can be considered demeaning in some cultures/situations. Giving a heartfelt tip to someone who went above expectation or helps you regularly is different and authentic..



peterk said:


> In practice, you could leave absolutely zero tip every time, be a repeat customer, and the worst that will happen is you might receive slower service and fewer smiles.


Have you tried this? I spend several months a year on per diem living off restaurants, and any time I've witnessed someone like an immigrant or tourist confused about the culture or innocently forget it became needlessly awkward. Any time someone tries to make a point with a low tip it didn't go unnoticed or forgotten. A tip is expected in Canada. In fact tipping 0% will cost the server money due to the "tip out" practice.



peterk said:


> Tipping culture also not only brings us better service, but better restaurants too. Bad restaurants who have bad food or logistics will have the servers incur the brunt of the wrath from customers, through poor tipping. This results in no one wanting to work there, and the restaurant spiraling into an even worse state of being understaffed, and soon bankruptcy. Phew.
> 
> If all servers made the same money they wouldn't care where they worked. Bad restaurants would fester for much longer, subjecting unwitting visitors to their greasy fares, while great restaurants would struggle to keep enough staff (who would want to be overworked at a busy, popular restaurant?) and the good places would struggle to be good.


Restaurants thrive in Europe and I highly doubt all servers earn the same. I imagine servers at more expensive restaurants earn relatively more depending on their experience/performance like any other job. The gratuity is just built into the price and wages are managed by the employers who see their performance other time and know the root cause of problems rather than patrons who just assume



peterk said:


> ^^ I am really surprise that you guys are saying this about non-tipping cultures being better service? I've only had limited experience abroad, 2 week in central Europe and a month in south America. It seemed quite clear to me that restaurant service in the United States (the best) & Canada soared past all of these places, with the exception of Cancun (biggest tips of all?).
> 
> Also keep in mind our restaurant experiences abroad are likely both higher-end and touristy. It might not be nice to think about because it interferes with the idea that restaurant staff are good at their job because they're dedicated without desiring the money, or because we've inspired them to be that way with our winning personalities... But you're an "American" when you enter these joints, and they all know it, and they all know how much Americans like to leave tips...


I lived in Europe and I'd argue the restaurants are better on average but I think that has more to do with culture than tipping. The famous tourist places were definitely lower quality food, service and far more expensive. Next time in Europe highly recommend to rent a car and get away from the tourist traps. Everyone who came to visit me wanted to see the tourist traps until I showed them some normal places locals prefer.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Unless tipping becomes "illegal" and not just "dumb", I will continue to tip, accordingly. Which is dependent on the level of service received and grade of the establishment. *So each to their own. *

And I agree with all of GoldStone's posts, above mine's.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

GoldStone said:


> I don't find the tips annoying.
> 
> 1. I can eat at home and not pay them.
> 2. I can pay less than 20% or nothing at all if I get poor service.
> ...


I find tips annoying and unnecessary

1. I don't have the option to eat at home when I work and travel abroad;
2. The undisclosed "expected" tip is different for various services in various countries and regions;
3. I know that servers often have to pay a % of all sales to their employer because of tips. I consider this shameful and deceptive

Taxes? Don't get me started. I spend 6 months traveling per year and move on average every 3 years. Tips needlessly complicate work expenses because they aren't always disclosed on receipts. This is needless and nefarious


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Tipouts........where the restaurant "charges" the waiter a % of the total bill, has increased since Ontario raised the minimum wage.

It is mostly the big chain restaurants that employ this practice.

In these restaurants the kitchen staff earn more than waiters and the tipout increase is to keep them at the same level "above" the wait staff.

There have been numerous reports on it lately on CBC and local media.

If as m3s posted, people leave 0% as a tip.......the restaurant still deducts a % of the bill. The amount varies among restaurants.......usually 3-5%.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Except servers are not the ones doing the hard work--that's the back of house staff. And they have to survive on low wages and the crumbs that servers are forced the share.


a. How you know it's crumbs? 
b. "forced to share" is a wrong way to put it.

Restaurant service is a team sport. Everyone pulls in the same direction to deliver a great service. If, in theory, servers stiff the kitchen, then can kiss their future tips goodbye. Great service won't happen if the kitchen is not on board.

At the restaurant where my daughter worked, all tips went into one pot. The pot was shared among the entire staff. Everyone got a certain percentage, set by the owner, depending on their role. Kitchen got their fair share. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they got more than servers.

As far as I know, this sharing arrangement is fairly typical in the industry.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

hboy54 said:


> Around Christmas, my wife and I often leave $50 tip on a $40 bill. One woman, maybe 45, got a bit teary eyed and thanked us profusely. Then she came back and said the money would be "put to good use." What possible difference could $50 make? I and most of the rest of you hanging out here are so far beyond typical in our wealth that we have no idea any more of the reality of most.


See that is a genuine tip. Not just an expectation and without innuendo. I think it would be thoughtful to tip someone who regularly helps you especially around Christmas, like say hair stylists, cleaners or yard workers. It's cultural though because if I randomly slipped $50 to any individual who works for me it could definitely be considered weird and creepy. I'd rather get the bill for my team's drinks or meal at an appropriate time..


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

here's a well-worn tip: "Don't eat yellow snow."


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

GoldStone said:


> As far as I know, this sharing arrangement is fairly typical in the industry.


Many Canadian chains have a "tip out" based on a % of a server's total sales. Otherwise they could pocket the $50 from hboy for themself

I don't know if they have a "tip out" in the US, but I know servers often have a much lower hourly pay in the US


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

m3s said:


> I find tips annoying and unnecessary
> 
> 1. I don't have the option to eat at home when I work and travel abroad;
> 2. The undisclosed "expected" tip is different for various services in various countries and regions;
> ...


m3s, I hear you. 

I have a different perspective because we rarely eat out. We only go out to celebrate a special occasion. I'm guessing we spent no more than $100-$150 a year on tips. I really can't get worked up about that. Taxes, on the other hand, ...


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

m3s said:


> Many Canadian chains have a "tip out" based on a % of a server's total sales. Otherwise they could pocket the $50 from hboy for themself


These days, many (most?) people pay by credit card and put the tip on the card. You can't pocket that.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

GoldStone said:


> a. How you know it's crumbs?
> b. "forced to share" is a wrong way to put it.
> 
> At the restaurant where my daughter worked, all tips went into one pot. The pot was shared among the entire staff. Everyone got a certain percentage, set by the owner, depending on their role. Kitchen got their fair share. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they got more than servers.
> ...


Maybe the restaurants where hboy tips $50 on a $40 bill operate on a different principle. Otherwise, why get all teary-eyed over a $50 tip that might put only 5 bucks in your pocket after it gets divvied up?


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## Chica (Jan 19, 2016)

Here's an article I just saw on Yahoo where a waitress at the Outback Steakhouse got fired after complaining on Faceboook after getting stiffed on a tip on a takeout order. https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/wai...rder-fired-complained-facebook-211452391.html


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Mukhang pera said:


> Maybe the restaurants where hboy tips $50 on a $40 bill operate on a different principle. Otherwise, why get all teary-eyed over a $50 tip that might put only 5 bucks in your pocket after it gets divvied up?


Maybe the sharing arrangement is different. Maybe she got overwhelmed by hboy's generosity. Not everything comes down to dollars and cents. Sometimes it's the gesture that counts.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I remember my college days as a waiter getting a $50 tip for about a $16 final bill. The 2 customers had left by the time I saw it on the table. I didn't get teary eyed or anything. Since there was really no obvious reason for the oversized tip I just suspected the customer intended to leave me $2. My college days was back in the day when we use to use a $2 bill that was about the same colour as a $50 bill. It was a dark restaurant.

Minimum wage back then was $2.85 an hour, so $50 went a long way. I bet they don't mind them today either.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

sags said:


> Tipouts........where the restaurant "charges" the waiter a % of the total bill, has increased since Ontario raised the minimum wage.
> 
> It is mostly the big chain restaurants that employ this practice.
> 
> ...


 If you want the server to keep the tip wright a check in their name in memo put for their name only money not to be shared.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

m3s said:


> See that is a genuine tip. Not just an expectation and without innuendo. I think it would be thoughtful to tip someone who regularly helps you especially around Christmas, like say hair stylists, cleaners or yard workers. It's cultural though because if I randomly slipped $50 to any individual who works for me it could definitely be considered weird and creepy. I'd rather get the bill for my team's drinks or meal at an appropriate time..


In Mexico, aguinaldo is a Christmas bonus payment, legally required to be paid by Dec 21. It is equivalent to 15 day's pay. Garbage workers, maid, gardeners....applies to regular part-time workers.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

I have to agree that tipping has lost its significance in most applications. Its become an obligation on the client's perspective and an expectation from the receiver.

Why tip a taxi driver? A hairdresser? A delivery person? Aren't we already paying to obtain their service? 

The industry has set a lower salary wage for employees receiving tips......why not raise their wages like everyone else and eliminate this tipping nuisance? Are people afraid of receive an inferior service quality? Should we tip our call center employees to ensure a more pleasant call experience?


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## Freedomeer (Jan 3, 2018)

I agree, that I hate tipping for bad service. But with that it is very hard for me not to tip. I did it for the first time in a very long time a couple weeks ago.

We were served raw chicken for my daughter, which I sent back and didn't get back until 50 mins later. The waitress missed 2 drinks, which we didn't reorder because by the time she came back what was the point, and they decided to give us the chips and guacamole, which they give to all their patrons, well after our meal was concluded. There was only 1 other table at the establishment. Needless to say, I refused to tip. 

I find our must tip culture is giving rise to the service mentioned above. But even with that service, it still feels incredibly awkward to not tip.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

GoldStone said:


> Maybe the sharing arrangement is different. Maybe she got overwhelmed by hboy's generosity. Not everything comes down to dollars and cents. Sometimes it's the gesture that counts.


Thanks for that. My post was intended, in part, to get you to acknowledge that your statement in your first post to this thread was a touch dogmatic and overbroad: 



GoldStone said:


> Remember that tips are shared among staff. Everyone who works the shift gets a percentage: kitchen crew, hostesses, the guy who does the dishes, etc.


Telling us to remember that tips are shared is misleading. Having had a daughter work in a restaurant does not endow you with divine insight into the inner workings of every restaurant across the nation. My sister worked in a few in her youth and told me their workings. Some variations existed even in that small sample, including her experience with at least one place where waitstaff kept 100% whatever they received. She also said some cheating went on where there was tip pooling or sharing. It was not hard for someone who received, say, a $50 tip, to put just $20 into the pool.

Like BM, I have also known a few of the "high end" types who can pocket as much as $1,000 in a night. Often all or most in cash. And you might find this hard to believe, but there is a tendency to, shall we say, "under report" those cash receipts to the taxman, which raises its purchasing power considerably. A young woman I dated long ago in a major U.S. city came home from her bartending job one night and handed me her cash tips to count, as she did every night. In the small bag in which he kept her tips was a tightly-rolled packet of bills. That roll contained just over $1,100. From a Swedish businessman in town for a few days to whom she played the role of good listener, since it was a slow night, and she pretended not to see him looking down her blouse. A classic example of peterk’s observation:



peterk said:


> It wouldn't be hard to change the practice of men paying more tips to young women who smile and chat and show some leg?? Good luck...


My girl certainly did a little happy dance around our kitchen that night. A bit sad, in a way. The generous donor said nothing when he handed her the tip. Apparently he simply passed it to her as though it might have been a roll of one-dollar bills. So, of course, she just offered what you might call ordinary thanks. She had no idea what was there. So the guy never got to see and appreciate her reaction. She never saw him again. But then, I suppose, that was the way he wanted it. He did not want to see her go nuts over what was to him, in all probability, small change.


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## twowheeled (Jan 15, 2011)

you will never convince me that it's a hard job, plenty of real hard jobs out there. If you don't like carrying dishes or glasses running back and forth between the kitchen and the table maybe you would prefer carrying sod or bags of concrete back and forth between the truck and someones yard. Face it, servers have it pretty well for a job that doesn't require any education or specialized skill. 

Frankly if I was a server I would make a killing. Every customer would receive a free soda or drink that I would accidentally "forget" to add to their bill and flash them a wink when I hand them the cheque. Sharing with the kitchen and dish washers? Why bother, any cash tips go straight into the back pocket "oh that table didn't tip". Why not? You're already stealing from the government by not paying taxes on your cash tips, might as well steal from the business and steal from your coworkers as well.

And yes, it its a cultural attitude of entitlement we have in North America. The best service I got was in Japan and they refused to accept a tip (we tried to leave a large one). Interview some minimum wage earners or servers in North America, how many of them would say "I'm lucky to even have a job making minimum wage or less because I am pretty useless, uneducated, unskilled, and one day could be replaced by a robot"


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

twowheeled said:


> And yes, it its a cultural attitude of entitlement we have in North America. The best service I got was in Japan and they refused to accept a tip (we tried to leave a large one).


Thanks for that reminder. I have not been in Japan for a long time, but that was my experience. If you left a tip, it was returned pronto. They wanted nothing to do with it. And that was from intended recipients who were not under observation or pressure from others. They could have easily pocketed the cash, but they just saw it as inappropriate. A different culture.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If the restaurants paid higher wages and eliminated tipping, they would charge more for the meal. There is no "free lunch"...........LOL


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

People expect to be "waited upon" which is the whole concept behind dining out.

If restaurant staff were as concerned about their customers as a lot of other businesses.......you might never get your meal.

People who don't like tipping have the option of cafeteria style or buffet style restaurants.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

sags said:


> If the restaurants paid higher wages and eliminated tipping, they would charge more for the meal. There is no "free lunch"...........LOL


Maybe, maybe not. There is always competition that will keep prices in line. 

I wouldn't mind paying a little more for my dish in exchange for exceptional service.

The way see it, eliminating tips and paying higher wages will put pressure on management to enforce great service. If I were a restaurant owner paying my staff top dollars, you could be rest assured that they would be serving my clients "with white gloves".


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Tipping has no effect on the service you get, unless you are an overly generous tipper (greater then 50% of the bill) and they know you from before. Other then that, the service would be about the same., tip or no tip, big tip or small tip. Tipping is done because of tradition, and that is it.

I do use the buffet/fast food style places more often because of tipping. As I said before, one should add up all the costs of a meal/night out, not just the tips, and then compare it to what you feel it is worth. Too often the dinner out with a waiter/waitress does not meet my value test and I forgo it. I doubt I am alone on this. Would eliminating the tip, change things dramatically. Not dramatically, but certainly a reasonable amount.

Would I have been a waiter in college if there were no tips. Of course not, I would have worked in the kitchen. Dealing directly with people should pay a higher wage then working in a back office scenario, because although most people are kind and pleasant, you will not get through an 8 hour shift without at least 2 or 3 really, really, rude people. I am being very conservative on my 2 or 3 people estimate. 

*I averaged at least 3 times my minimum wage pay, with tips*. Personally, I never declared a cent of tips to the taxman. Being a student, it probably would not have mattered but I always felt to declare anything was to raise a red flag so I pretended that I served in a place where people did not tip, even though they did. So that being said, it was obvious to me that the tips made waitering so much more lucrative and that is exactly why I pursued the profession, while struggling to pay my way through college.

With my complete absence of useful skills at that time, I doubt any other profession could have allowed me to pay the bills I had while attending college. I did not live at home. Was that the restaurants problem or the customers problem. No, but again, it was what it was. I would estimate that probably 35% of my co-workers were living at home, doing the job part-time. Most others were married housewives, trying to earn a second income in the least number of hours possible so they could take care of their young families. A couple I remember were single mom's struggling hard to make a decent living, also without any useful skills.

Lastly, I learned very quickly that smiling, good service and a hot body, etc., was NOT the holy grail to going home with a big bag full of money. I practiced a system I called "padding the bill". It inevitably worked out to giving good service but that was not its underlying strategy. The way to maximize tips was to turn your tables over as quickly as possible while dropping down a bill at the end, as high as possible. My managers loved me. I would teach this system to everyone. If there was a line up at the door, you want to turn that table. Get a another paying customer there. So when their meal was over, I politely asked if they wanted anything else and hoped they did not. If there was no big line up, which was usually the case, I started selling the deserts and everything else. I would talk about how wonderful they were. You gotta try this, its to die for, etc. I upsold the drinks. I made sure they never went a moment without beer in their glass. *Tips come as a percentage of the bill x the number of bills you drop down*. That simple formula may seem obvious, but remember you are dealing with the lowest skilled people on average, so I taught this to everyone, especially the single mom's who I had so much respect for. These girls could have had an abortion, but instead they were slinging drinks and plates for 12 hour shifts so their daughter had enough money to go on that school trip, that most kids take completely for granted. How can you not respect that?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

My son worked at The Keg part-time Thurs-Fri-Sat night and made $56k. After grad, he spent another year at The Keg before accepting a job in TO. He got a transfer from the London Keg to one in TO and continued working 2 jobs until he paid off his car and had the down payment for a house.

I am a big believer in tipping for good service. And if the service/food is substandard, I shave the tip from 20+% to under 10%. I also add the tip on the tax too. For breakfast, I often tip extra when the omelette is cheap.


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

During my time in the US and Canada I have seen the standard tip increase from 10% -> 15% -> 18% -> 20%. TBH, inflating the percentage makes me feel like I am being taken advantage of. 

Inflate your prices, pay the staff a living wage and do away with tips.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

olivaw said:


> Inflate your prices, pay the staff a living wage and do away with tips.


I couldn't agree more. It would solve a lot of problems.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/serve...boss-demand-for-a-cut-of-their-tips-1.3800839


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

olivaw said:


> During my time in the US and Canada I have seen the standard tip increase from 10% -> 15% -> 18% -> 20%. TBH, inflating the percentage makes me feel like I am being taken advantage of.
> 
> Inflate your prices, pay the staff a living wage and do away with tips.


Especially when restaurants just start clawing back tips. 

One effect of building the labour cost into the price and paying reasonably hourly wages/no tipping is that you are shaving not just the high income hours but also the low income hours (when restaurants make servers come in at poor times or perform non-serving/tippable tasks). Restaurants might become a bit more selective about their operating hours as their labour costs may outweigh operating income at marginal times.

Perhaps a better way to incentivize employees is to offer profit-sharing, splitting a pool that is a % of the revenues. Employees do better when the restaurant is busy.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

in a way, twiddly little threads like this one - carping on & on & on about a non-problem that only affects the 5% of the population who travel constantly - when the really huge news topics of the day aren't getting as much as one single comma in cmf forum - surely niggly little threads are a classic indicator of how pedestrian this place has become ... each:

although one has to say Bravo to hboy for a damn fine gesture


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> in a way, twiddly little threads like this one - carping on & on & on about a non-problem that only affects the 5% of the population who travel constantly - when the really huge news topics of the day aren't getting as much as one single comma in cmf forum - surely niggly little threads are a classic indicator of how pedestrian this place has become ... each:
> 
> although one has to say Bravo to hboy for a damn fine gesture


HP, in the top left corner of every forum section there is a button where you can click it and start a thread on anything you find more important.

As for this one. I find discussions that suround issues where our society has a certain way of thinking but where there are alternate ways of looking at things, quite interesting. In the last week or so, I have enjoyed posting on this issue, also on the controversial issue about legalizing and smoking marijuana and I personally started one on the negatives I see when a society continues to show unquestioning appreciation to anything military.

I have questioned many things in our society and I find it useful to see if anyone else sees it the same way as me or if I am simply missing a little information on one or both of the sides of a particular issue.

When I am done with these types of threads I usually take the time to read and sometimes post on those so called more important issues or answer some individual questions that some of our members might have. I see no reason why we can't look at it all.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Maclean's found this thread and wrote an article about it.

*You are all complaining about the wrong stuff*

Evil single-mom waitresses are not declaring their $1,000 tips. OMFG!! Stop the presses. We are going to have a heart attack. Never mind that CRA is always on their case.

In other news, Chinese tycoons are buying multi-million dollar homes in the toniest part of Vancouver, while declaring $97 in world-wide income on their Canadian tax return. Nary a peep from anyone on CMF. Nary a peep from CRA.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

GoldStone said:


> Maclean's found this thread and wrote an article about it.
> 
> *You are all complaining about the wrong stuff*
> 
> ...


 The supreme court in the US could in one decision kill the entire economy by making mail order retail sellers on the internet collect sales tax from buyers in other states. The penalties & late fees for mistakes made in collecting taxes can wipe out the retailer.

All they care about is the money to fund their salaries & pensions. To hell with the economy.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

GoldStone said:


> Maclean's found this thread and wrote an article about it.
> 
> *You are all complaining about the wrong stuff*
> 
> ...


 Ever wonder why US contractors have trouble getting contract jobs outside the US ? The reason is they can not compete when they have to pay tax to Uncle Sam.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

GoldStone said:


> Maclean's found this thread and wrote an article about it.
> 
> *You are all complaining about the wrong stuff*
> 
> ...


I don't think I tend to complain about things that _everyone _tends to complain about like in that article. I mostly look down on group think and mob mentality

I tend to try to point out things that I have first hand knowledge/experience with and that nobody seems to notice, and I try to offer a solution. IMO pointing out problems without offering a solution is the definition of complaining. That article lists many innovations and advances that gasp, came over time from people pointing out things they had first hand knowledge of with a viable solution!

I don't have first hand knowledge of Chinese tycoons in Vancouver, spread your knowledge. Most of the real issues I have first hand knowledge of is not open source


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## BigMonkey (May 31, 2016)

Mukhang pera said:


> Thanks for that reminder. I have not been in Japan for a long time, but that was my experience. If you left a tip, it was returned pronto. They wanted nothing to do with it. And that was from intended recipients who were not under observation or pressure from others. They could have easily pocketed the cash, but they just saw it as inappropriate. A different culture.


My experience in Japan was the same. The level of service and mannerism the Japanese display was truly outstanding which extended beyond my restaurant experience. Their restaurant service was always really good (I would argue it matches or exceeds anything in North America), but what made it more special was their service/politeness was more genuine as their culture frowns upon tipping.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

m3s said:


> I don't have first hand knowledge of Chinese tycoons in Vancouver, spread your knowledge.


I was referring to this court case:

http://vancouversun.com/opinion/col...-b-c-court-case-details-seven-migration-scams
http://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/chinese-legerdemain-taken-for-granted

The case is just the tip of an iceberg but that's a story for another day (and thread).


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

GoldStone said:


> In other news, Chinese tycoons are buying multi-million dollar homes in the toniest part of Vancouver, while declaring $97 in world-wide income on their Canadian tax return. Nary a peep from anyone on CMF



in actual fact, some of the cmf regulars have peeped quite frequently.

the problem isn't just chinese tycoons in vancouver. The problem runs all across canada, with rich immigrants applying under the "wealthy investor" category when in fact, all they intend to do is stash their wives, children & parents in this country, meanwhile declaring for themselves the minimalist income possible so as to reduce their canadian income taxes to the least.

meanwhile the pater familias remains embedded in his home country, running his business operations as usual. From time to time, he visits his famly in faraway canada. In fact, to casual neighbours of his family in canada, it can even appear that the pater familias actually does live in this country, although it's always obvious that he spends copious amounts of time travelling abroad.

this forum had a horrifically egregious example of this a few years ago. A middle easterner who had stashed his wife plus his mother plus his seven children in a suburb of montreal. He knew down to the last penny exactly how many cashback dollars the quebec government was giving to him every year, for his numerous offspring (quebec's child cashback tax benefits are the highest in the entire world) (higher even than any scandinavian country) (hard to believe but it's true)

pappy then continued to live happily in his middle eastern country until war broke out & froze his funds. He was no longer able to send any money to support his large clan of dependents in the suburb of dollard-des-ormeaux (comically, he had applied for immigration as a wealthy investor farmer) (never mind that there is no working farm anywhere within 100 kilometres of dollard-des-ormeaux)

even more comically, pappy then asked this forum whether his enormous clan of nine dependents (nine, count em) could live for an entire year in dollard-des-ormeaux on the $20,000 they happened to already have in their dollard-des-ormeaux bank account, since he, pappy, could no longer send them any money, given that a revolution had occurred in his middle eastern country ...

that was only a few years ago. Since then, all the provinces have gotten a lot, lot, lot smarter about controlling their wealthy investor immigrants. Minimum wealth requirements have been hugely hiked (until a few years ago, canada was admitting "wealthy investors" with less than $1 million, can you imagine)


.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

...can we puh-lease get back to the important topic topic of this here thread...
In the words of DJ Trump: "I am probably the BIGGEST TIPPER ever....in the history of tipping!"


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> the problem isn't just chinese tycoons in vancouver. The problem runs all across canada, with rich immigrants applying under the "wealthy investor" category when in fact, all they intend to do is stash their wives, children & parents in this country, meanwhile declaring for themselves the minimalist income possible so as to reduce their canadian income taxes to the least.
> 
> ...


Hi Humble Pie,

Nice to see you. Happy 2018! :love_heart:

Regarding rampant tax evasion by rich immigrant "investors", I fully agree with the sentiment of your post. That's all I am going to say for now, in this oh! so! important! thread.


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> The problem runs all across canada, with rich immigrants applying under the "wealthy investor" category when in fact, all they intend to do is stash their wives, children & parents in this country, meanwhile declaring for themselves the minimalist income possible so as to reduce their canadian income taxes to the least.
> meanwhile the pater familias remains embedded in his home country, running his business operations as usual. From time to time, he visits his famly in faraway canada.


what a way to live...why have a family if you aren't gonna live with them?
sheesh...i would pity for the wife.
to quote Dr. Swanson, "Wow, that's F'ed up"


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Yeah, I have at times gone a little out of my way to reduce my tax bill but that does sound a little extreme.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

SixesAndSevens said:


> what a way to live...why have a family if you aren't gonna live with them?
> sheesh...i would pity for the wife.
> to quote Dr. Swanson, "Wow, that's F'ed up"


Well we know several of them. They are Iranian. The husband considers the life of his wife and family paramount. He works in Iran and supports his family. Once a quarter, he spends a week or two with the family.

The family have many other husbandless families here and they socialize. Meanwhile the kids are getting a good education without fear for their lives.


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

kcowan said:


> Well we know several of them. They are Iranian. The husband considers the life of his wife and family paramount. He works in Iran and supports his family. Once a quarter, he spends a week or two with the family.
> The family have many other husbandless families here and they socialize. Meanwhile the kids are getting a good education without fear for their lives.


wow...
is our Canadian job market *so bad *that husband cannot get a job here to be with his family?
and to have probably thousands of such families all across the country feels like a social disaster.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

sooooo......back to the subject at hand.....
Do you tip when you order take-out, and go pick it up yourself (i.e. not delivery) ??


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

jargey3000 said:


> sooooo......back to the subject at hand.....
> Do you tip when you order take-out, and go pick it up yourself (i.e. not delivery) ??


No...what for?


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Does anyone tip their hairdresser?

What if its a home hairdresser?


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

SixesAndSevens said:


> No...what for?


Tips are often pooled. You are tipping support staff, line cooks, etc. When you order take out some of the support staff are still working hard behind the scenes. Don't be cheap, this is not a frugality thread:biggrin:

Hairdressers, Massage Therapists (they are not suppose to except!), Cleaners, etc. It never ends.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

SixesAndSevens said:


> wow...
> is our Canadian job market *so bad *that husband cannot get a job here to be with his family?
> and to have probably thousands of such families all across the country feels like a social disaster.


No he is making of ton of money in Iran. And does not want to give it up. He wants a Canadian life for his kids and he is willing to sacrifice family time to get it.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Mortgage u/w said:


> Does anyone tip their hairdresser?
> 
> What if its a home hairdresser?


My hairdresser charges 70 pesos and I give her 10 or 20 pesos tip depending on the service.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

SixesAndSevens said:


> No...what for?


exactly. anymore than the clerk who checks out my groceries. or the guy who mixes the paint at the paint shop. or the checkout person at wally-mart or whereevr.
some people do though...'cause it's a restaurant


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## BigMonkey (May 31, 2016)

No I don't tip on take out.

I do tip the barber (generally the same amount), mainly because I am a repeat customer and would like to avoid the potential awkwardness of not tipping when I see them again.

I do tip at restaurants and bars because I am out with friends. This is mainly to avoid the negative reputation I would get for not tipping, despite me knowing that these individual on average are extremely well paid with tips which can range from hundred to 1k+ a night (on top of their hourly wage). This is not an exaggeration of tips received, if you refuse to believe this, you are just ignorant. 

I go out very often and I have never not tip. I just don't like it when people say if you don't like the tipping system, then stay home. In my opinion, part of a fulfilling life and living is going out and enjoying good meals/drinks with company. I think that tipping has gotten way out of hand, and I shouldn't I feel shamed into giving a tip because of my reputation backlash I will receive. I do not think server's service justify the high tips they receive, when most of the work is done by the cooks.

I believe there have been restaurants that have moved to abolish tipping, some even paying their servers $25/hour. But their servers end up leaving/complaining because they said they made significantly more when they received min wage + tips.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Synergy said:


> Tips are often pooled. You are tipping support staff, line cooks, etc. When you order take out some of the support staff are still working hard behind the scenes. Don't be cheap, this is not a frugality thread:biggrin:


Because we allow this absurd system where restaurants don't pay their staff...


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## BigMonkey (May 31, 2016)

andrewf said:


> Because we allow this absurd system where restaurants don't pay their staff...


The servers in Canada get the best of both worlds. Min wage and same tipping standards as united states


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## twowheeled (Jan 15, 2011)

Synergy said:


> Tips are often pooled. You are tipping support staff, line cooks, etc. When you order take out some of the support staff are still working hard behind the scenes. Don't be cheap, this is not a frugality thread:biggrin:
> 
> Hairdressers, Massage Therapists (they are not suppose to except!), Cleaners, etc. It never ends.


that's exactly why when the service is particularly atrocious, I tip nothing. Knowing the server has to tip out to the kitchen, hostess, etc and lost money on my table is a bit of satisfaction if they ruined my meal with their crappy service.


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## twowheeled (Jan 15, 2011)

yes and some Canadians are still dumb enough to tip at those establishments. Hell there's tip option and jar at subway. For what? It's fast food.


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## Jaberwock (Aug 22, 2012)

Australia has a minimum wage of $18.29/hour plus a 25% extra for casual workers ($1AUD is about the same as $1CAD). Menu prices include taxes, and tipping is not expected, so the price you see on the menu is the price you pay. It is a shock when you first see the prices on the menu, but the final bill is similar to what we would pay in Canada after adding tax and tip. Nothing is free, whether you pay high wages and no tip or low wages and tips, the end result is that the customer pays


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

twowheeled said:


> yes and some Canadians are still dumb enough to tip at those establishments. Hell there's *tip option* and jar at subway. For what? It's fast food.


 ... it's an option, right? So don't tip there. 

I think it beats those jars/boxes asking for your change in disguise as donating to charity at TH, MCD, and other non-eatery esablishments such as SDM or CT, etc. With the latters being the worst, having the cashier put the customer the spot after ringing out the purchase "do you want to buy one of these leafs postie for $1 (nontaxable) to donate such and such ..." I would rather donate to the charity of my choice than having to donate to your charity of choice if those change boxes even get there.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Beaver101 said:


> I think it beats those jars/boxes asking for your change in disguise as donating to charity at TH, MCD, and other non-eatery esablishments such as SDM or CT, etc. With the latters being the worst, having the cashier put the customer the spot after ringing out the purchase "do you want to buy one of these leafs postie for $1 (nontaxable) to donate such and such ..." I would rather donate to the charity of my choice than having to donate to your charity of choice if those change boxes even get there.


lol

I finding it irritating here in BC that the liquor stores try to put you on the spot to donate to their cause(s). For example, for reasons unknown to me, high school graduation is a big deal in BC. They have all these "grad parties" at the end of grade 12. Of course, booze tends to be a part of it. So every May/June or so, when checking out at the liquor store, everyone gets asked if $2 of $5 or whatever can be tacked onto the bill to contribute to "dry grad" (whatever that is). 

My response is usually the same. If I just bought a bottle of wine for $20, more than half of that is provincial tax. So I usually politely tell the cashier to ask Her Majesty if she would like to contribute to dry grad. She can much better afford it, having vacuumed the taxpayers' pockets.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

andrewf said:


> Because we allow this absurd system where restaurants don't pay their staff...


Like I mentioned up thread, I agree completely. Try withholding tips in a small community you do business in.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

And I have to think that restaurants don't pay their staff, and have legislation to support this, because of the tipping practice. When customers are contributing to take-home pay, restaurateurs can claw that back through payroll.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

BigMonkey said:


> I think that tipping has gotten way out of hand, and I shouldn't I feel shamed into giving a tip because of my reputation backlash I will receive.


What is this "gotten out of hand" aspect of tipping that everyone is talking about though?

20 years ago I was taught as a kid to tip 15% for regular service, same as the GST+PST. Perhaps less or more if the services was bad or great. From 80s movies it seems like every taxi driver, hair dresser and pizza guy in the world got a nice big tip.

Has something changed exactly?

I think the only thing that's changed is that socialists in the media are pumping up this no-tipping topic so that we all talk about it and all land on the same conclusion that higher minimum wages and government regulations are somehow a good thing for unskilled workers... :rolleyes2:

From the left-wing side it's unfair that servers get a salary below minimum wage, from the right-wing side it's unfair that servers make more money than skilled workers after tipping, from the feminists it's unfair that sexy waitresses make more money than ugly girls, from the schlubs with decreasing Real incomes it's unfair they are forced to pay so much to the sexy waitresses that wouldn't date them anways, from the government it's unfair that servers don't declare all their the tips, from columnists it's unfair the government demands that servers declare all their tips, ethicists think it's unfair to be forced to pay extra to some arbitrary industries, anarchists think it's unfair that others would judge them for not tipping and they might suffer social consequences. 

It's the one topic everyone can agree on it seems... tipping is a major _problem_. I can't wait for the gong show of a solution to be handed down to us, and we all suffer together and celebrate the loss of good service and employment freedom as a step in the right direction :cool2:


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

peterk said:


> It's the one topic everyone can agree on it seems... tipping is a major _problem_. I can't wait for the gong show of a solution to be handed down to us, and we all suffer together and celebrate the loss of good service and employment freedom as a step in the right direction :cool2:


I'm not convinced that service will decline without tips. Service levels are often a function of how much you are willing to pay. If you shop in a discount store, you will get basic service. If you go high end, then service will be great. Management usually has more to do with service levels than tips.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Maybe restaurants could be divided up by "tip" and "no tip" sections, like they used to do for cigarette smoking.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

peterk said:


> It's the one topic everyone can agree on it seems... tipping is a major _problem_. I can't wait for the gong show of a solution to be handed down to us, and we all suffer together and celebrate the loss of good service and employment freedom as a step in the right direction :cool2:


Peter, listing the full price seems to be a viable solution in Europe and neither customer nor server are suffering. I consider you a like-minded person with a head on your shoulders but I think all the time in the backwoods is getting to you

Spend some more time travelling the world. There are some things we can learn from others and improve on if only people weren't so afraid of a little change.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> Maybe restaurants could be divided up by "tip" and "no tip" sections, like they used to do for cigarette smoking.


 ... LOL on the concept of division or segregation ... it's like advertising sections of "cheapies" and "generous" patrons in this case. But I like the idea though.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It just ain't fair..........these guys aren't getting any tips !


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Beaver101 said:


> ... LOL on the concept of division or segregation ... it's like advertising sections of "cheapies" and "generous" patrons in this case. But I like the idea though.


Jasper Pizza Place used to be set up like that. Go to the tables on the left and you go up to place your order and take it to your table when ready. Go to the tables on the right for full service. Worked great, locals to the left, tourists to the right :sneakiness:


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Jasper Pizza Place used to be set up like that. Go to the tables on the left and you go up to place your order and take it to your table when ready. Go to the tables on the right for full service. Worked great, locals to the left, tourists to the right :sneakiness:



at last, a glimmer of fun in this otherwise oh-so-so thread

hboy still takes the prize, though, for dropping a $50 tip on a modest bill in a fast-food at xmastime

in an effort to keep up the levity, here's a somewhat related joke from a source who's closer than u think. He's a frequent flyer on an expense account. He said the trick, when flying over 4 or 5 different countries, is to figure out which national currency has the most favourable exchange rate vis-a-vis canadian dollar. Then submit your expenses exchanged per that currency.

.


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## BigMonkey (May 31, 2016)

peterk said:


> From the left-wing side it's unfair that servers get a salary below minimum wage, from the right-wing side it's unfair that servers make more money than skilled workers after tipping, from the feminists it's unfair that sexy waitresses make more money than ugly girls, from the schlubs with decreasing Real incomes it's unfair they are forced to pay so much to the sexy waitresses that wouldn't date them anways, from the government it's unfair that servers don't declare all their the tips, from columnists it's unfair the government demands that servers declare all their tips, ethicists think it's unfair to be forced to pay extra to some arbitrary industries, anarchists think it's unfair that others would judge them for not tipping and they might suffer social consequences.
> 
> It's the one topic everyone can agree on it seems... tipping is a major _problem_. I can't wait for the gong show of a solution to be handed down to us, and we all suffer together and celebrate the loss of good service and employment freedom as a step in the right direction :cool2:


I think you hit a lot of the key points on why I think tipping should be abolished Petrek:
"From the left-wing side it's unfair that servers get a salary below minimum wage" - They do receive min wage in a lot of the provinces already

"from the right-wing side it's unfair that servers make more money than skilled workers after tipping" - Yes, because people get shammed into tipping them. They probably make more than 90% of the people in this forum per hour. At the higher end restaurants, they make more than lawyers/physicians per hour ($250+/hour) once you factor in taxes. 

"from the feminists it's unfair that sexy waitresses make more money than ugly girls" - Yes, I agree this is true and it's not fair/proper tone to send to girls in general. Show some skin, put on push up bra, and flirt = you get what you want (generous tip in this case). Although, I do admire their physique and am guilty of tipping this way (I'm human and a guy). Not a lesson that I would like my daughter (if I had one) to learn

"from the government it's unfair that servers don't declare all their the tips" - Yes, given how many are employed in the serving at restaurant, I don't think its fair that someone working min/or near min wage somewhere else has to pay more taxes than someone who is a waiter/waitress. When you go to home depot or Walmart, pay attention to those that are past 65 and can't afford to retire, I don't think its fair that they along with the rest of the society is carrying the tax burden for those that don't declare their income. (although I think the government has a spending/wasteful problem, but thats another issue)

"ethicists think it's unfair to be forced to pay extra to some arbitrary industries, anarchists think it's unfair that others would judge them for not tipping and they might suffer social consequences." - agreed. The effort put into cooking exceeds serving, yet they are rewarded more. Yes, I feel forced to tip at a % based on this "rule of thumb", if I go lower than this, I'm considered disrespectful/cheap/rude/inconsiderate.

"I can't wait for the gong show of a solution to be handed down to us, and we all suffer together and celebrate the loss of good service and employment freedom as a step in the right direction - completely disagree on this statement, other countries has shown that their service are just as good if not better, and their restaurants businesses are thriving just as much North America


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Jasper Pizza Place used to be set up like that. Go to the tables on the left and you go up to place your order and take it to your table when ready. Go to the tables on the right for full service. Worked great, locals to the left, tourists to the right :sneakiness:


 ... at least it's an option and also an opportunity for the locals to mingle with the tourists when they want full service for dining out (even it's pizza). 

ATM, I can't think of an eatery in Toronto that offers such both options (full service or self-service) although now MCD servers do offer to take food to your table (only, not full service) whilst you're waiting for your order instead of having you hang/crowd around the order area.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Hopefully understood that I was being facetious re the local/tourist split. I did notice that it could cause some confusion to new customers coming in though.

Yes, I noticed McD's 'table service' recently. It seemed to me it was because they were so slow in getting the orders to the counter. It seemed like the drive-through crowd got fully staffed kitchen support while us in-store schmucks got our order once they finally had time.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Yep, :sneakiness: :sneakiness: ... but you got to make the best of every opportunity :biggrin: 

^ And yep on MCD's recent "table service" or rather "uneven service" which goes to prove that even servers at fast food joints are runned off their feet ... and with the recent minimum wage increase, I don't think management is going to add more workers, actually the opposite which means tipping is even more important. It's not an obligation or a legal requirement but almost a necessary tradition. Again, it's each to their own to tip or not, even it's dumb or "so ever dumb".


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## stantistic (Sep 19, 2015)

sags said:


> Maybe restaurants could be divided up by "tip" and "no tip" sections, like they used to do for cigarette smoking.


We've had gas pumps work that way for years, but I haven't noticed gasoline any difference in price per litre.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Hopefully understood that I was being facetious re the local/tourist split. I did notice that it could cause some confusion to new customers coming in though.
> 
> Yes, I noticed McD's 'table service' recently. It seemed to me it was because they were so slow in getting the orders to the counter. It seemed like the drive-through crowd got fully staffed kitchen support while us in-store schmucks got our order once they finally had time.


Yeap. The drive through can be 5 deep but I can go inside with 1 guy in front of me, order 1 coffee, and the drive through guys still get served first! McDonald's is also surprisingly inconsistent. I pretty much only eat breakfast there, maybe once a month ish.. The number of times I've had my english muffin burnt or under cooked, crooked sandwich assembly, MISSING ingredients in a 3 ingredient sandwich (egg, sausage, cheese). For the biggest restaurant chain in the world they somehow don't seem to have any actual standard methods and QA/QC for food preparation.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

peterk said:


> Yeap. The drive through can be 5 deep but I can go inside with 1 guy in front of me, order 1 coffee, and the drive through guys still get served first! McDonald's is also surprisingly inconsistent. I pretty much only eat breakfast there, maybe once a month ish.. The number of times I've had my english muffin burnt or under cooked, crooked sandwich assembly, MISSING ingredients in a 3 ingredient sandwich (egg, sausage, cheese). For the biggest restaurant chain in the world they somehow don't seem to have any actual standard methods and QA/QC for food preparation.


glad you brought up about drive-thru getting priority. you're right - pet peeve of mine.
I always only order a "seniors coffee" (or extra large when it's on for a buck, like now)
I just go there to read the papers they supply (thank you) & watch the news /sports on tv....just to kill an hour, early in the morning. I've gone thru the drive-thru to get my coffee, then come inside ; i've also popped into the Mcd in wallymart right along the way (no paper/ tv) to get my coffee first - because the inside service is so slow at the mcd i go to.
meanwhile...did i read somewhere Mcd stock is up something like 43% year over year......????


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

They know that you old geezers that come in to get your coffee have an hour to kill while us drive thru folk are off to work. :biggrin-new:

All kidding aside. I am relieved the debate on CMF is about tipping (which I embrace begrudgingly for all service workers gas jockeys, hair dressers, grocery clerks etc) while the US boards are trying to figure out how to stop people from killing kids at schools on an almost weekly basis. Like the US with their gun culture, tipping culture will be hard to change. At least with tipping/or not tipping people don't have their world turned upside down. 

As a final note I hate that restaurant debit machines now start at 18% as the lowest default percentage option.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Its easy to use the amount option and figure 15%...that's what I do,or if I didn't bring my glasses I request they add a 15% tip for me . I doubt I'll ever pay more for attending a restaurant.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

londoncalling said:


> They know that you old geezers that come in to get your coffee have an hour to kill while us drive thru folk are off to work. :biggrin-new:
> 
> All kidding aside. I am relieved the debate on CMF is about tipping (which I embrace begrudgingly for all service workers gas jockeys, hair dressers, grocery clerks etc) while the US boards are trying to figure out how to stop people from killing kids at schools on an almost weekly basis. Like the US with their gun culture, tipping culture will be hard to change. At least with tipping/or not tipping people don't have their world turned upside down.
> 
> As a final note I hate that restaurant debit machines now start at 18% as the lowest default percentage option.


well put london, well put!
"in all of us command", eh?
yes, I hate those GD machines too!! I once gave 180% tip !!!!!!!


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ 180% on 1 buck .... sorry, couldn't resist as it's Tuesday. Market is going to go down and then up .... or is it the other way around? Have a nice day! :indecisiveness:


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## dadaswell (Jan 6, 2016)

kcowan said:


> My son worked at The Keg part-time Thurs-Fri-Sat night and made $56k. After grad, he spent another year at The Keg before accepting a job in TO. He got a transfer from the London Keg to one in TO and continued working 2 jobs until he paid off his car and had the down payment for a house.
> 
> I am a big believer in tipping for good service. And if the service/food is substandard, I shave the tip from 20+% to under 10%. I also add the tip on the tax too. For breakfast, I often tip extra when the omelette is cheap.



WOW!!! 56K?? for a P/T thurs/fri/sat job. How long did that take?


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## BigMonkey (May 31, 2016)

dadaswell said:


> WOW!!! 56K?? for a P/T thurs/fri/sat job. How long did that take?


Sounds about right. Knew a guy that worked at the keg, said he made around anywhere from $300-500/night in tips (6 hour shift). Though he only worked Fri, Sat, Sun


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## Newby1983 (Apr 9, 2015)

Minimum suggested tip now showing up on debit machines is 18%. That’s absurd.


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## Jaberwock (Aug 22, 2012)

Newby1983 said:


> Minimum suggested tip now showing up on debit machines is 18%. That’s absurd.


I agree. I think the restaurant can set the level that comes up on the machine. 
I have seen a debit machine that gave options of 20, 25 or 30%. I have not been back to that restaurant.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

Jaberwock said:


> I agree. I think the restaurant can set the level that comes up on the machine.
> I have seen a debit machine that gave options of 20, 25 or 30%. I have not been back to that restaurant.


I never do a %. I always select the $ option and put in an amount I think is appropriate.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Wow........with servers earning $300 - $500 per 6 hour shift, (representing perhaps 15-20% of the bill), the restaurants must be really pulling in the cash.

They shouldn't be complaining about increases in the minimum wage.


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

sags said:


> Wow........with servers earning $300 - $500 per 6 hour shift, (representing perhaps 15-20% of the bill), the restaurants must be really pulling in the cash.


no, not unless they have draconian tip out policy.
restaurants aren't making that much money these days.
that's why they are so up in arms about the min wage increase.

to me, this whole thing is related.
fix the problem so everyone makes a fair return or wage and there is clear transparency for consumers.
pay the servers a living wage (min or otherwise), restaurant adds their profit markup to costs and price the full cost of the food clearly for the guests.

yeah, the $20 dinner will now be printed as $50, but that's what we are paying anyway...

tipping should then be entirely discretionary.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Maybe that location is a Hooter-type Keg.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

The American breasterant concept like Hooters is in major decline. You won't catch many well adjusted people under 40 in there.

In Europe where topless women is just a normal day at the beach or community sauna, I can't see dirty old men feeling so sexually repressed they need to tip +20% to see some cleavage. Americans may still pretend to be hypersensitive to nudity but internet stats tell the truth

If you're still tipping 15% in Canada I believe you're out of touch. 18% seems to be the bare minimum expectation today with 20% being nothing special either


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## OutofBounds (Dec 7, 2016)

m3s said:


> The American breasterant concept like Hooters is in major decline. You won't catch many well adjusted people under 40 in there.
> 
> In Europe where topless women is just a normal day at the beach or community sauna, I can't see dirty old men feeling so sexually repressed they need to tip +20% to see some cleavage. Americans may still pretend to be hypersensitive to nudity but internet stats tell the truth
> 
> If you're still tipping 15% in Canada I believe you're out of touch. 18% seems to be the bare minimum expectation today with 20% being nothing special either


I really need to be blown away to tip more than 20%, especially when the average meal for me and my wife is gonna hit me up for at least $50...and we don't drink alcohol at restaurants. I'm not made of money. It's partly due to the rising expectation of tips that has us staying home to eat. We go out maybe once every couple months now. It used to be once a week on average. 

Now we take the $50+ we would spend on a dinner out and buy high quality food and a bottle of wine or case of good beer and stay home. Helps that I'm a pretty good cook and can cook near restaurant quality if I choose to. LOL

That said, we do live in a town where servers, especially female servers, can and do make big bucks...and I mean BIG bucks. Our good friend was the manager of a local restaurant and he said it wasn't uncommon for his servers to pull $500+ in a 6 hour shift just in tips. Lots of oilfield money and drunk, horny rig pigs makes for big tips. So I don't feel guilty in the slightest tipping 20% for satisfactory service. Exceptional service does earn a larger tip but that's rare in this town.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

My strategy is always tip 15% and never go back to restaurants that have bad service or food.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

We have so many good choices that when we encounter a below average dining experience, they are off the list. Some of these had been "goto" places for years. It is one strike and you are out.


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## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

kcowan said:


> We have so many good choices that when we encounter a below average dining experience, they are off the list. Some of these had been "goto" places for years. It is one strike and you are out.


agreed. went to kelseys down the street from me for valentines day with my gf (it was close to highway for her to get to work after) 

went at 530pm and she started work at 730 (took 15 mins from location to get to her workplace)

took them 2 hrs to get us a salad, appetizer tacos, and a small flatbread pizza which i would be safe to assume takes maybe 20-30 minutes tops to prepare, heat, and serve.

4 sets of customers came after us in groups of either 2-6 and all received their food before us. (orders included nachos, chicken wings, deep fried items) which i would guess take longer to prepare due to breading and frying. at this point waitress was actively avoiding us until i called her over and said whats going on here....

was 745 when we got our food and my gf ended up being 30 mins late. (her pay rate is $50 per hr) told them that they should comp us for the $25 but they refused and offered a dessert and i said no because at this rate it would take another 3 hrs to get it. 

will never take another step into that **** hole again.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

We just removed 2 top-notch restaurants for our list here in PV. Kind of sad to see old standbys go, but no attempt was made to apologize when they were clearly in the wrong.


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