# Greek Deal ?



## sags (May 15, 2010)

It sounds like the Greeks have negotiated a deal that will have to be passed by their Parliament.

Time will tell if the agreement is accepted or if the government disintegrates into factions.

The agreement as reported, demands the Greeks sell $55 Billion in state assets to repay debt, and agree to severe cuts to pensions and spending, raise taxes and allow European final approval and oversight in their ministries and processes to ensure compliance with the austerity cuts.

The whole thing reminds me of an episode of the Sopranos..............where Tony lends a guy money who can't pay it back and subsequently becomes a "partner" in the guy's business. They start unloading goods out the back door of the store, eventually bankrupt the guy who can't pay his vendors, just before he "disappears".

Interesting tidbit on CNBC today..........investor Wilbur Ross put $1.8 Billion into Greece's 3rd largest bank Eurobank just last year. (He didn't know the situation ?)

Is this a bailout for the Greek people...........or billionaire investors of distressed capital ?

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/13/wilbur-ross-the-real-goal-of-greek-deal.html


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Yah, there's more stamps to be stamped on this before its a done deal. And who knows if the terms if agreed on will actually be carried out. 

However it seems so far it's more like debtors capitulation, opposite of what you suggested in another thread. Certainly not a historical great negotiating deal by Tsipris you also postulated about. 

You may have something with the comparison to the Sopranos. This thing really is a desperation cluster and who knows who benefits and who doesn't.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

sags said:


> Is this a bailout for the Greek people...........or billionaire investors of distressed capital ?


It's to bail out the bond-holders of all the Greek debt -- the German, French etc banks and so forth; save the skin of some insurers who issued credit default swaps on Greek debt. Some hedge fund operators will get richer. The average greek dude in the streets will get stuck with the bill. OTOH, the average greek dude in the streets seemed to have been getting a free ride for some time, so maybe it's payback. But I bet it will be paying back €100 on a loan of €10.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I have little sympathy for Greece. They created this problem and have done next to nothing to change. They expect the Euro countries to bail them out time and time again. The free lunch is over.

As I read in the in NP today, what other country would provide a 96 percent of salary pension to someone aged fifty simply because they were in an at risk profession such as a clarinet player or tv presenter. Or the forty odd percent of people living on the island of Zante (I think that is the one) who are classified as blind in order to get a 400E monthly subsidy from the govt. Not to mention the massive opportunity for tax evasion. 

I read an article a few months ago that Greece had 4 times the number of gov't employees per capital....a result of political party largesse. So just think of a Canada with three or four times the number of civil servants all retiring on relatively large pensions in their fifties. Would we also blame a situation like this on our creditors?

We love Greece and will be there again for a month in Sept/Oct. But you do not have to visit very long to see the issues..just have to keep your eyes and ears open and speak to some of the locals who work. Problem in Greece is too few people working, too few people paying taxes, and far to many people getting cheques every month....some of whom have been dead for years yet their families continue to get the money every month. A country with little industry and only 10 million people cannot sustain this.

Greece's real challenge, similar to Portugal and Spain, is that the best and brightest of it's young people are leaving the country in droves. And they happen to be among the most highly educated in Europe. This in itself will spell disaster for the economy in the years to come.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

fraser said:


> I have little sympathy for Greece. They created this problem and have done next to nothing to change. They expect the Euro countries to bail them out time and time again.
> 
> As I read in the in NP today, what other country would provide a 96 percent of salary pension to someone aged fifty simply because they were in an at risk profession such as a clarinet player or tv presenter. Or the forty odd percent of people living on the island of Zante (I think that is the one) who are classified as blind in order to get a 400E subsidy from the govt. Not to mention the massive opportunity for tax evasion.



what should get our attention & support is the 50% unemployment rate among greek youth, the fact that there is no economy left for youth to join. Young people have left greece in droves, i glimpsed a video about thousands of greek doctors who are currently practicing in germany alone, those are qualified MDs who are never going to return to Hellas in their lifetimes.

as some have pointed out, where is the planning for rebuilding an economy in greece? does the country want to live on nothing but tourism?

lost in the din & the uproar has been the story of what kind of economic vision elected Alexis Tsipras & his party only six months ago. If i dug i suppose i could find it. But tsipras hasn't been given a chance to implement any new policies, his brief term to date has consisted of nothing but one brushfire after another.

western europe has imposed harsh, draconian terms on greece. Perhaps these are necessary; but how exactly do the finance ministers of brussels think greece is ever going to earn enough to repay one iota of the debt that brussels keeps loading on? where were the helpful measures designed to help greece rise up off her knees? all that brussels has done is postpone the same problem for another year, when the debt load will be even greater.

perhaps it's easy to point the finger of blame. Why are we blaming greek pensioners at large? by many news accounts, some pensioners have taken cuts of 40-50% already.

looking at the news videos, i've been struck by how many young or youngish Athenians are coming out to stand peacefully in the public squares, by how dignified they look, by how gravely they speak to the broad issues while never whining or begging for their personal situations.

it would be interesting to hear from persons touristing through greece this summer what they are finding. In the towns, in the villages, in the cafenions, in the squares. What kind of economy might greece be able to raise out of financial ruin? iceland did it, ireland did it, even detroit - the quintessential destroyed ironbelt capital city of the US - is rising like a phoenix once again.

we should be asking all these How To Rebuild questions because - as some have posted in the threads about the greek crisis - debt bankruptcy is not that far removed from the treasuries of many countries, including the US of A & possibly even canada herself.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

We were in Crete a few years ago. What struck us was the number of young people in their twenties who were sitting all day in the coffee shops or in parks. No work. I expect that we will see the same this September-perhaps more. 

Greece has little or no industrial infrastructure, zero natural resources to speak of, and a history of terrible Governments. If I were a young Greek I would be scrambling for the exit in order to make a better life for myself.

Greece is not the only country with fifty present youth unemployment. Portugal and Spain have the same issue. When we were in Portugal we met some folks at a tourist lookout in Portugal. They were in their twenties. All four we planning to leave Portugal over the next several months...London, Australia, and the US. Cannot blame them. That is exactly what my ancestors did and why they came to Canada. It is why there has been a migration of people from Eastern Canada to Western Canada. It is about opportunity for you and your children.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

^^ thankx, so fascinating to hear your firsthand travel reports.

i have so much difficulty following through on this line of thought, though. Does it mean that all those beautiful ancient countries - mostly southern countries - must inevitably become depopulated, nerveless, useless, inhabited only by archaeological ruins, other archaeological ruins masquerading as old people, plus passing tourists?

i really have difficulty with this. Whatever happened to rebuilding a country? how can greece *get* industry & commerce implanted? how can future growth be inoculated? 

it's not just greece, not just southern europe. Outward bound migration of some of the younger generation is inevitable, but the lands left behind will inevitably rise again some day. It's how to kickstart this revitalization that intrigues me.

btw in canada, not all migration is east-->west. Look at newfoundland, its economy has risen like a beacon these past 10 or 15 years.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I think you ask the right questions Humble...........

The Greeks had a small surplus in their budget in 2013.

They had revenues and expenditures of about 80 Billion dollars. The previous austerity cuts have been effective but at a high price to their people and economy.

The proposed new tax hikes and spending cuts are aimed wholly at repaying the debt, which is a high priority for any borrower and a cornerstone of financial stability.

I am not sure that payment of unscrupulous interest charges to the hedge funds, private individuals and those who specialize in distressed loans, should be a priority though.

Repayment of the principle and a 'fair" amount of interest would be more fitting given the circumstances.

These buyers of distressed debt offer their help with full confidence they can charge high interest rates and enjoy guarantees of performance from government sources.

*It is a form of capitalism that seeks to privatize profit and socialize debt.
*
Hopefully for the sake of the Greeks, they negotiated a deal that included lowering interest costs and allows for them to expand their economy.

There is a report that Merkel and Tsipris were walking away with the situation unresolved, when the Polish representative encouraged them back to the table.

Since their minds were made up..............something happened that affected change.

I wonder if some of the lenders, other than the Germans, were willing to contribute to the cause with reduced principle and interest charges.

Merkel could get what she wanted and the deal could be done.

As I understand it, German banks are owed individually about the same as the UK and US banks are owed individually. Other creditors include hedge funds and private investors.

Perhaps there is much buried in the final deal that hasn't been reported in the media as of yet, and the world speculates on something that is fully unknown.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

The new deal comes along with something like 86 Billion in debt forgiveness.

The two largest contributors to Greece's GNP are tourism and shipping. Everything else pales in comparison to those.

Can Greece change? Perhaps they should look to their neighbour to the north...Turkey. A thriving, growing economy.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

86 billion has been forgiven in the new deal? that was euros? 86 billion euros?

so sorry, i hadn't heard anything like that. It's news to me. Would you mind if i asked for a source? who said they'd forgive a debt that size


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Euros.

Heard it from a news special on BBC late last night. They interviewed an EU economist cum expert who has been following the situation closely. It is apparently part of the overall deal but like other items it will be contingent on the Greek Gov't actually following through (a very novel idea) on their commitments. Merkel is onside with it.

The EU is trying to get 100E from the UK to help fund the overall Greek debt. Cameron is (very wisely) telling them to pound sound. By prior agreements four years ago, the UK does not have to participate in this nonsense as they are not part of the monetary union. Lucky for them. Very wise of the UK to keep their own sovereign currency system.

There was even a report some months ago that Merkel asked Canada to fund some money. Harper said NO. Some press are saying that in addition to the trade agreement, Ukraine (another basket case) had planned to ask Harper for some dosh. I expect that he will give them a very polite nyet comrade!


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Not an idea I like, but it somehow popped into my head :stupid:

If our sports arenas, sports teams, even the Olympics can sell sponsorships, perhaps the Greeks could do the same. They have a wealth of attractions. Better than selling them (part of the new plan). Maybe offer official status to hotels - Hadrian Hilton, or ????????


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

agent99 said:


> Not an idea I like, but it somehow popped into my head :stupid:
> 
> If our sports arenas, sports teams, even the Olympics can sell sponsorships, perhaps the Greeks could do the same. They have a wealth of attractions. Better than selling them (part of the new plan). Maybe offer official status to hotels - Hadrian Hilton, or ????????


they essentially have by agreeing to sell 50B-EUR of state assets 

some stories say it will be islands and ruins and others say bank shares

i tend to think it will be something like water and power plants and this will be a shame



> It is a form of capitalism that seeks to privatize profit and socialize debt.


 that IS capitalism, or at least what it has become, it certainly isn't a form of it


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> 86 billion has been forgiven in the new deal? that was euros? 86 billion euros?
> 
> so sorry, i hadn't heard anything like that. It's news to me. Would you mind if i asked for a source? who said they'd forgive a debt that size


I think this is what is being referred to. Not forgiveness but more money.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33503955

We were in Athens and through the island of Kefallinia /city of Argostoli last Oct. What struck me was the very laid back attitudes of Greeks and the absence of marketing in Kefallinia- no advertising signs, businesses barely had visible names on the buildings etc., although it is not a huge tourist destination. I would never have known there was any difficulty with the economy, although there did seem to be few young people relative to older.

fraser may be right about Turkey- we were also there and the people were much more motivated to do business...almost too much.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

debt forgiveness is not the same thing as brussels offering more debt to greece so that greece can continue making unbearably high interest payments on previous debt.

me i haven't caught one word about forgiveness of accrued debt.

i imagine we've all picked up bits & pieces though? what i've picked up is that the 50 billion - euros or dollars, doesn't really matter - that brussels wants on deposit in brussels with itself as trustee, is going to be used to pay down some of the existing greek debt.

but many are asking, Why give greece more debt just so greece can get farther & farther behind trying to pay off impossibly high levels of old debt? surely there are better ideas out there?

when tsipras was elected 6 months ago, he must have won on a platform of economic reform. I mean, tsipras is a 21st century socialist, he must have called for a clean broom. 

i'm left wondering if we have any greeks in cmf forum with understanding of tsipras' economic platform who could explain the same? what i'd be looking for are some good native greek ideas that should be saved, because they might actually work.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It's the same thing as moral hazard. The Greeks have shown since the first bailout in 2010 that they had their heads in the sand and were not doing much of anything to reverse their downward slide. Same thing with the next bailout. Their view of austerity was misplace. Nothing much to ensure better tax collection. No changes in the pension system. No oversight into fraudulent welfare and pension payments. IOW, one less beer at happy hour but not the elimination of happy hour. 

At some point, the rubber has to hit the road. No more until you get your house in order. Cut the addict off from his/her source of funds. Tough love and all that. Clearly, Europe will provide just enough support to keep the lights on and Greece inside the house but Greece has to face reality and meet their obligations. They have to bring their socialistic society in line with the rest of the Eurozone. Tsipras was extremely naïve playing his last ace with the referendum. How stupid was that? He is probably done and a new coalition will take form.


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## zylon (Oct 27, 2010)

Paul Mason has been doing an interesting series of blogs from Greece.

Here is the one from Tuesday, July 14 (4 minutes)

Alexis Tsipras' problems: privatisation and protest – Paul Mason 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrVl1kj-UlI


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

_Only a small fraction of the €240bn (£170bn) total bailout money Greece received in 2010 and 2012 found its way into the government’s coffers to soften the blow of the 2008 financial crash and fund reform programmes.

Most of the money went to the banks that lent Greece funds before the crash. 
_
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/29/where-did-the-greek-bailout-money-go

The lenders now demand cash and more Greek assets.........possibly anything the Greeks have of value.

The only solution for the Greeks is to default.

If they default and are debt free, they should be able to secure enough capital to keep their banks functioning.

They don't need hundreds of billions of Euros if the lenders are getting 90% of it.

Without debt repayment, the Greeks currently have a small budget surplus.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

It seems to me Tsipras and co. were dishonest with the Greek people. They reportedly campaigned on reduced austerity and led people to believe they would deliver. They had little chance of negotiating that, and it is likely a Grexit would make things worse and not lessen austerity. And they will possibly pay the price with a new government coalition.

I agree the current resolution is going to make it very tough for Greece to make progress. I would also say the Greeks seem to have done little to help themselves- considered the most corrupt country in the EU, an enormous underground economy, and a massive penchant for unsustainable entitlements. 

I believe there will be another day of reckoning not too far off and that default will probably happen.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

RBull said:


> Greece ... considered the most corrupt country in the EU ... an enormous underground economy ...



that honour belongs, i believe, to turkey?

certainly parties travelling by motorcycle in southeastern europe, the middle east, the stans & the tiny "independent" countries that were once part of the soviet union say that turkey is far, far, far out in front when it comes to the necessity to bribe squadrons of officials in order to even be able to ride a motorbike on the roads ... or disembark from the ferries ... or get past the military checkpoints ... all hands are out, all of the time, these voyagers say.

the bike riders are not your average tourist in turkey, though. Tourists are likely prevented from seeing the worser aspects of the country. Such as passing would-be ISIL fighters through the turkish border crossings into syria.

i for one have never heard of a greek, either military or civilian, holding up a tourist on a roadway for a bribe.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

sags said:


> _Only a small fraction of the €240bn (£170bn) total bailout money Greece received in 2010 and 2012 found its way into the government’s coffers to soften the blow of the 2008 financial crash and fund reform programmes.
> 
> Most of the money went to the banks that lent Greece funds before the crash.
> _
> ...




sags, this is a truly interesting comment. The globe & mail has also been voicing variations of this view, i believe?

ie what is the point of advancing $$billions to greece's left hand when the country must simultaneously use its right hand to pay back the same $$billions as interest on historic debt, to the very same lenders?

plus every now & then, in a kind of gigantic catharsis, brussels is going to grab $50 billion from greece in hard assets, to help secure its constant rotation of debt?

the greek people i see are angry, defiant & proud. I'm not picking up any signal that Tsipras is corrupt or lying or incompetent or misleading his people.

never mind the EU, it can undoubtedly survive with or without greece. Never mind the euro, british & US banks that will have to take the writedowns. Can we look at greece only? what will happen to greece if they default & grexit?

presumably greece already has drachma printed, these could run the country although society would be upside-down & extremely chaotic for a while. Think only of the shortages in all goods & services that would ensue!

the globe & mail wrote recently about what the word Ochi truly means to greek people. It recalls to them how they voted Ochi (No) to italian dictator Mussolini near the start of WW II. Then, greeks were prepared to suffer extraordinary hardship to resist the fascist army. Ochi is a national rallying cry in Hellas. 

what i sense is that this same spirit of proud resistance is widespread now. France & the french resistance also battled through WW II, perhaps that's why french leader françois hollande is so supportive of greece at the present moment.

final somewhat wild thought. Perhaps this is why the BRICS bank & other friends of russia have not stepped forward to help out greece? it has baffled me why BRICs will not even offer poor greece a bridge loan? perhaps russia & BRICS bank are waiting for the saga to unwind into its final chapters, ie a Grexit plus default on all those loans to all those western banks? this will be how russia & other BRICS supporters will be able to deliver a maximum blow to the International Monetary Fund?


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

That's kind of like the husband who leaves his current wife for a younger women. The new wife enjoys her life with him right up until the time he leaves her for an even younger one a few years later.

Do you really want to lend money to a country that just gave their current lenders the big shaft? I know I wouldn't, but just as the above analogy, that gets played out quite a few times, proves there will always be another dumb blonde, I supposed it is safe to say, as well, that there will always be another dumb lender.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

As I posted, I read recently the corruption honour belongs to Greece. 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/03/greece-corruption-alive-and-well

It does state "perceived" but I don't know how anyone could come up with an exact number in any case, so guess this might have to do in any case. I have a good friend here that lived in Greece and operated a business with his wife there for years. They finally left the country back to Canada as their ability to operate legitimately was impossible, and he couldn't take any more intimidation from officials and feared the safety of his family. I heard many stories from him. Incredible, and articles like this only supports exactly what he relayed to me first hand.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

hmmmn i don't think this is quite the right analogy?

but - if you insist - the question becomes why the EU would want to stay in bed with a raunchy old husband who keeps on running around with floozies.

it's the western banks - led on by goldman sachs they say - who've been the dumb lenders to greece.

the point is, greece can't pay her debts, just as plenty 3rd world countries can't pay their debts, there are even moments when the world wonders whether the US treasury is capable of paying its debts.

that 50 billion euros/dollars that brussels wants to grab right now may be the only collateral the euro banks are ever going to get.

here's a scenario:

greece defaults, has no debt,
russia will build that $50 billion trans-greece gas pipeline soon,
reportedly there will be cheap gas delivery pipelines into greece,
a greek industrial complex could be seeded & nurtured on cheap gas,
BRICS bank would lend to that,
greece gets another chance,
collateral damage to western banks & the IMF is only incidental,
nobody cares about some frisky old goat.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I think that some of the Greek debt should be written off.

But not before Greece gets serious and implements real change. Greece needs to demonstrate clearly that they are attempting to deal with this issue before they can expect more assistance from wealthier nations. At the moment trus/credibility is non existent.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> it's the western banks - led on by goldman sachs they say - who've been the dumb lenders to greece.


Actually it was GS that assisted the Greek government to keep much of the debt off the balance sheet (aka Enron). It was only when the off-balance sheet stuff could no longer be hidden in late 2009 that it came to light and the western lenders froze in their tracks and refused further lending. IOW, Greece fleeced the lenders (aka Enron), not the other way around.

It is true the IMF and EU had to step in with the first 2010 bailout and the subsequent 2013 bailout because commercial banks were no longer willing to lend more money. It was also the Greek government that took that bailout money without introducing the reforms needed to balance the books and start to repay their debts. Now we are at 2015 bailout and EUB/EMF is saying 'no more', at least not without real collateral and real reform.

Ultimately some of the debt will be written off but the Greeks need to show they can balance the books and start some repayments.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I have recently been watching the "colorized" history of WWII documentary on Netflix.

It is very interesting the history of the rise of Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco were assisted by times of deep economic troubles in the homeland. The Great Depression that spread across the world (I wasn't aware that it was a world wide phenomena) created the conditions of despair that led to the rise of Fascism.

It was also interesting to note that they were initially very successful at turning their economies around which made them very popular dictators. Even the west begrudgingly acknowledged how well they had done, which gave Hitler and Mussolini the time needed to build their war machines.

Their "secret" was massive spending, on infrastructure primarily, and it was only after they had established trust and favour with the citizens that they started their war campaigns.

Hitler for example, spent millions building the 5,000 miles of Autobahn highway system, and also mandated some industry start ups.

Japan had a different problem, but one also tied to their economy. Their economy was booming but they lacked the raw materials to keep it going, so they invaded neighbouring countries for the resources of coal and minerals.

The takeaway I have from the documentary are :

1) Economic instability has often led to political and social unrest and the rise of much bigger problems.

2) Spending money to spur the economy directly has been effectively used in the past.

Food for thought I think, given the current circumstances of Greece and the rise of militancy (ISIL) in the M.E.

Strong economies with solid employment are the best solution to avoiding bigger problems.

I have read in the past few years, some high ranking Euro officials state social unrest due to economic instability is what they worry about the most.

Maybe if the billions being lent to Greece, were spent developing the country to increase what industry and tourism they have, the ability of Greece to repay their debt.......or at the very least be able to remove themselves from the welfare lineup would be a better result.

Simply borrowing more debt to pay lenders for the old debt isn't going to change anything.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Off topic but perhaps of interest to some one on a slow day.........

I also learned recently that Hitler was a very competent landscape artist, who completed hundreds of paintings. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paintings_by_Adolf_Hitler

One wonders how such a creative and intelligent person could turn out to be such an evil mad man.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

sags said:


> 1) Economic instability has often led to political and social unrest and the rise of much bigger problems.
> 
> 2) Spending money to spur the economy directly has been effectively used in the past.
> 
> ...



this is where i believe that toughlove & finger-wagging will fail.

forcing greeks to starve inside their houses with just-enough-support-to-keep-lights-on means ripe grounds for breeding the kind of radical young greek terrorists who are likely to hate the punishing west with a mortal passion.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> this is where i believe that toughlove & finger-wagging will fail.
> 
> forcing greeks to starve inside their houses with just-enough-support-to-keep-lights-on means ripe grounds for breeding the kind of radical young greek terrorists who are likely to hate the punishing west with a mortal passion.


I agree excessive economic oppression is not going to solve matters, but what I don't yet hear or haven't read (and maybe it is out there) is that Greeks need to admit en masse that they accept the responsibility for their own mess, make some of their own proposals to clean up their act, and THEN work with their lenders for more favourable terms. I have not heard Greeks say they are willing to give up the underground economy and that they are now going to pay taxes they have been evading for generations, and to say they are now willing to carry their share of Eurozone's freight. Until they become proactive (think Iceland, Ireland, etc), they are behaving like 'not me' children and no one should give them a free pass.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

aren't we going to distinguish between ordinary greeks & the rich greeks who did the dirty deeds, though. You'll note that Tsipras is already asking the world to help him reform greece & get rid of the oligarchs that have corrupted the country.

does tsipras mean the ordinary greece-side relatives of your local community greek grocer who imports his olive oil from his cousin's ancestral olive groves near salonika? or does he mean the billionnaire greek shipping executives?

not all greeks could be corrupt, it's just not possible. I for one am not acquainted with one single corrupt greek person. I find it near-impossible to believe that, as a nation, greece could be more corrupt than, say, brazil, guatemala, kazakhstan, albania, ukraine, india or zimbabwe.

i think we should be careful not to join the mob lynchings that seem to rampage from one target to another these days. A recent target has become ordinary greek citizens, many of whom have done nothing wrong.

here today is U of SoCal accounting history prof Jacob Soll in the NY Times, describing the irrational anti-greek anger of german participants at a conference on greek sovereign debt held in munich last week:

_" when the German economists spoke at the final session, a completely different tone took over the room. Within the economic theories and numbers came a moral message: The Germans were honest dupes and the Greeks corrupt, unreliable and incompetent. Both parties were reduced to caricatures of themselves. We’ve heard this story throughout the negotiations, but in that room, it was clear how much resentment shapes the views of German economists."_

Soll writes that speakers from other countries displayed no anger. Only the germans viewed themselves as victims of the greeks & appeared to be seeking revenge for this, he says.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/15/o...region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region&_r=0


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

I have been reading some old Greek stories, going back hundreds if not thousands of years. It seems they all involve someone cheating, swindling, or tricking somebody. Maybe it's in the blood. They sure don't like paying taxes. I know nobody does, but the rest of us pay them. We grumble but we pay. Not so in Greece.


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## Cdnwife (Sep 10, 2013)

My husband is from Athens. His family is still there. To answer your question Humble, yes, normal greek citizens are corrupt. Many business owners dodge taxes and do so in a very deliberate way. I have heard many stories of my husband working at a taverna where receipts were required on tables. They never provided unless they caught wind that a government official way en route to check that they were in compliance. This was years of tax evasion. Last time we were there to visit, coffee shops recycled receipts. We would order two coffees, get two individual receipts with different time stamps on them.

When my husband arrived in Canada and was required to take a driving test to convert his license, his first question was who do I pay. I thought he meant who do we pay for the exam, but I, it was who do we pay off and how do slip them the cash. In Greece to get a license you need to show up w paperwork for the examiner. It is in a folder. If it contains the 'fee', you too can get your license without ever moving the car. Having children in Greece, despite having public healthcare, you go to a private doctor who runs you around 2000€. Then you 'pay' both the nurse and the hospital for being part of the experience. From our friends 2000€ went to each of these two parties. Total for having a child is 6000€ plus any expenses for medical tests.

As for the mentality, many Greeks looked to secure government jobs. My husbands cousin has looked her whole career for a government position. It is well known that it is a cushy job, you are paid well and you qualify for a pension. People focused solely on finding these types of jobs to the point they did not entertain other positions.

I needed to get a marriage licence as we were married in Greece. In the port of Athen, the town hall that serves a relatively small population, there were three, yes three women issuing marriage licenses. Bloated government doesn't begin to describe it. But back to the corruption.... the 900€ I would have had to pay to the church had we gotten married there for the use of the candle. Needless to say we were married in the park by a civil official. Not sure how much we paid for that. I do know that we paid for our reception in cash and never had a receipt, just a quote for the services.

To the current situation, the current PM, yes his platform while campaigning was no clawbacks to pensions and no increase in taxes. Both of which he has not been able to live up to. As the vote was taken to parliament today there were protests outside.

I have been watching and listening to the country's economic woes for years. It is to the point where I am unable to listen anymore. The Greeks recognize they are not in a good place but also have a sense of entitlement when it come to what they feel the government should be providing. Despite having a monthly wages of less than 1000 Euros, that would be considered a very well paying job, they are out night after night drinking 4€ coffees with little regard to fiscal restraint. Almost anything can be bought on a payment plan. In 2008 I bought a pair of sunglasses that may have been 100€. First question was would I like a 12 month payment plan. Instant gratification is what they know and whatever happens now is going to hurt and hurt a lot. I feel for my in-laws. Despite being of retirement age, my mother in-law works every summer for extra cash. They will never travel to Canada to see their grandkids unless we foot the bill as they can not afford it. They live paycheck to paycheck. 

I know folks feel that the Greeks are being put in a no win situation, however they have done a lot of this themselves by bucking the system in efforts to get ahead and continuing to support the previous governments that were so fiscally irresponsible.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Cdnwife...your comments mirror exactly what we have been told on several occasions by Greeks who are now living in Canada and by others when we have visited the country. If you are somewhat observant you can see it happening as you travel through Greece.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-crisis-deadline-arrives-with-ecb-debt-to-pay

"Let me ask the most important question, where did the money come from? I thought they were broke?"

Latest news, Greece made a 6.8 billion Euro payment to the ECB and so are still considered solvent.

They made the payment by borrowing the money from the ECB.

In other words the money never left the ECB. With a stroke of the pen, they were in good standing on their loan but 6.8 billion deeper in debt, with the next payment coming due when?

This is how they have been making their payments for the last 10 years. This is what all those bailouts were about. Is it any wonder that every bailout only leaves them worse off? 

How long can this farce continue? I am amazed it has gone on as long as it has.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Cdnwife, just read your comment and I'll ditto what fraser wrote. Your comments are consistent with comments from a friend I have, who lived there for many years.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

We will be in Greece for the month of September. Just bought some more Euros today as I expect the CAD to go down a little and we plan to take more cash than usual.

It will be interesting to see the differences from when we were there two years ago. We are spending time on the mainland and on the islands.


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