# restaurant tipping



## joncnca (Jul 12, 2009)

doesn't 18% on the bill (excluding taxes) for average service for two people for lunch seem like a reasonable amount? downtown toronto near the university. is that considered....low? we asked for some condiments that should have been at the table anyway. waiter didn't even ask how our food was (as much as I usually find that to be a more-than-less useless gesture)

but on my credit card statement, the tip was bumped up to 22%. i have a problem with this in principle. if someone asks me for more money and if i agree to it, i agree to it. but to take it without my consent feels like i've been violated. one of those places that (perhaps intentionally) makes you write down the tip amount, instead of registering the amount directly into a machine. won't be going back.

agree/disagree?


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I would freak if my tip amount was changed,including causing a huge scene.... I tip 15% but often feel like tipping nothing. What I deem to be great service gets 20-25% tip though.

In spite of the Seinfeld episode it is always best to "Name Names" though.


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## MoreMiles (Apr 20, 2011)

You are not allowed to change your customer's "promise to pay"... It can be a signed/keyed credit card slip or signed cheque. Otherwise it's plain fraud. How would those waiter feel if their landlord fraudulently modify their rent cheques? They will probably call police.


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## DayTek (Sep 26, 2013)

Did you keep a copy of the receipt? If so, I would go back and address the overcharge with them.

A restaurant that had included gratuities would likely make me avoid it. I typically tip 15-20%, but go a lot lower if the service was not good.

I would like to know how gratuities are dished out, as some places are different. When I was a waitress, the cook staff got 10% of our total tips because even though they were paid more, it wasn't a lot more than the servers. That is why I always tip - If the food was really good, but the service wasn't, the cooks may being getting shorted because of it.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Agreed... this is credit card fraud, albeit on a small scale.

I guess it could have been an 'honest' mistake in keying in the tip amount you wrote on the slip. Could it be a digit transposition error or something like that?


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

I've been in the restaurant/bar business for 30 years. You are the victim of fraud and have grounds for a suit.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

There are a lot of people working for minimum wage it is just not right that they are expected to tip. By the time they pay taxes are taken off their check they are having to work a half hour plus just to pay the tip. The ratio of time spent by the minimum wage worker working & the sever waiting on the minimum wage worker is often way out of wack with the minimum wage worker having to spend a lot more time @ work for the amount of money given as a tip.

On a $50 dollar order a 10% - 20% tip the minimum wage worker needs to work @ least a half hour to over an hour just to pay the tip. If the server does 4 or 5 tables in the hour with tips plus gets paid the minimum they are making out like bandits. The people being served are being robbed & they are doing the looting out of their own pockets by giving in to a lousy system.

There is a reason Mcdonalds does so well. (no tipping)


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

lonewolf said:


> *There are a lot of people working for minimum wage it is just not right that they are expected to tip.* By the time they pay taxes are taken off their check they are having to work a half hour plus just to pay the tip. The ratio of time spent by the minimum wage worker working & the sever waiting on the minimum wage worker is often way out of wack with the minimum wage worker having to spend a lot more time @ work for the amount of money given as a tip.
> 
> On a $50 dollar order a 10% - 20% tip the minimum wage worker needs to work @ least a half hour to over an hour just to pay the tip. If the server does 4 or 5 tables in the hour with tips plus gets paid the minimum they are making out like bandits. The people being served are being robbed & they are doing the looting out of their own pockets by giving in to a lousy system.
> 
> There is a reason Mcdonalds does so well. (no tipping)


 ... correct and the 'alot of people working for minimum wage' would also include waiters, waiters, and servers themselves working in full service (medium-scale/priced) diners. Not an expectation but these folks deserve a tip if the service has been excellent/exceptional. 

It would appears only the high-end restaurants are putting in this 'forced' tip practice in place ... perhaps it would be best to check in advance what the tipping policy is with the establishment prior to dining there so as to avoid unnecessary surprises. 18% forced tipping would sucks if service has been non-existent or mediocre.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

This is why I like restaurans in France and other Europen countries where tip is included in price and you don't have to worry


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## liquidfinance (Jan 28, 2011)

lonewolf said:


> There are a lot of people working for minimum wage it is just not right that they are expected to tip. By the time they pay taxes are taken off their check they are having to work a half hour plus just to pay the tip. The ratio of time spent by the minimum wage worker working & the sever waiting on the minimum wage worker is often way out of wack with the minimum wage worker having to spend a lot more time @ work for the amount of money given as a tip.
> 
> On a $50 dollar order a 10% - 20% tip the minimum wage worker needs to work @ least a half hour to over an hour just to pay the tip. If the server does 4 or 5 tables in the hour with tips plus gets paid the minimum they are making out like bandits. The people being served are being robbed & they are doing the looting out of their own pockets by giving in to a lousy system.
> 
> There is a reason Mcdonalds does so well. (no tipping)



I'm with you lonewolf. 

It's disgusting that tips are expected in the first place. Even more so that a certain % is expected.


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## ChrisR (Jul 13, 2009)

joncnca said:


> doesn't 18% on the bill (excluding taxes) for average service for two people for lunch seem like a reasonable amount? downtown toronto near the university. is that considered....low? we asked for some condiments that should have been at the table anyway. waiter didn't even ask how our food was (as much as I usually find that to be a more-than-less useless gesture)
> 
> but on my credit card statement, the tip was bumped up to 22%. i have a problem with this in principle. if someone asks me for more money and if i agree to it, i agree to it. but to take it without my consent feels like i've been violated. one of those places that (perhaps intentionally) makes you write down the tip amount, instead of registering the amount directly into a machine. won't be going back.
> 
> agree/disagree?


Was this a paper credit card slip, rather than a chip transaction? If it was paper, then they definitely can't change the total amount after you have signed. I once had a bill show up on my credit card statement that I suspected was incorrect, so I called the credit card company and asked them to send me a copy of the paper bill with my signature. About 2 months later the entire transaction was refunded. I never saw a copy of the paper bill even though they said they would send me one.

If it was a chip transaction, I suspect you'll have a tougher time with it. I'm pretty sure its the customers responsibility to check that the amount charged is correct before entering the pin.


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## MRT (Apr 8, 2013)

joncnca said:


> doesn't 18% on the bill (excluding taxes) for average service for two people for lunch seem like a reasonable amount? downtown toronto near the university. is that considered....low? we asked for some condiments that should have been at the table anyway. waiter didn't even ask how our food was (as much as I usually find that to be a more-than-less useless gesture)
> 
> but on my credit card statement, the tip was bumped up to 22%. i have a problem with this in principle. if someone asks me for more money and if i agree to it, i agree to it. but to take it without my consent feels like i've been violated. one of those places that (perhaps intentionally) makes you write down the tip amount, instead of registering the amount directly into a machine. won't be going back.
> 
> agree/disagree?


um...that is fraud. never mind not going back, I would absolutely file the appropriate complaints. 

While it could be a simple error if they miskeyed the tip amount when reconciling the final bill, it could also be intentional (which then makes me wonder if this behaviour is systemic at that establishment or by that particular employee).


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

Yes very bad. I would not eat in a place that had a preset tip added to the bill. The entire practice is a bit goofy. Pay people a living wage.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

joncnca said:


> but on my credit card statement, the tip was _*fraudulently stolen*_ up to 22%.


fixed
call the credit card company and the police if the amount is different than what you signed for.

as far as going back - hell yeah. I'd be paying cash if I got the same server, and guess how much I would tip.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

gibor said:


> This is why I like restaurans in France and other Europen countries where tip is included in price and you don't have to worry


Which only makes sense and is more equitable for all involved.

I don't like the tipping system because some get underpaid and others make off like bandits for petty reasons or luck really.

It's also unfair for taxpayers to make up for all the tax evasion and unfair for the good tippers to make up for bad tippers etc.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I rarely tip.
It's not my job. It's the business owner's.

Oh - and it's not my fault if the waiter/waitress is poor, either. Their destiny is up to them. Go to school. Get a different job. Create your own business.
Why should I give away my money because you poured my beer so vigorously that I lost 20% of the beer due to massive amounts of released carbonation (head)?


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## MoreMiles (Apr 20, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> I rarely tip.
> It's not my job. It's the business owner's.
> 
> Oh - and it's not my fault if the waiter/waitress is poor, either. Their destiny is up to them. Go to school. Get a different job. Create your own business.
> Why should I give away my money because you poured my beer so vigorously that I lost 20% of the beer due to massive amounts of released carbonation (head)?


I totally agree. Should we also tip teachers, lawyers, doctors, ambulance drivers, etc? 

In my view, tip is like a tax... It's like paying 'fuel surcharge' by transportation industry. You either include it in the price or drop it... don't name it something else and hide it. 

20% tip + 13% HST... Whatever the menu price is, you have to add 1/3 to it to appreciate the real price. It's dishonest.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

One more reason to cook your own meals and brown bag your lunches.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Synergy said:


> One more reason to cook your own meals and brown bag your lunches.


 ... excluding tourists, business travelers, hospitality workers, and the likes, of course.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

Beaver101 said:


> ... excluding tourists, business travelers, hospitality workers, and the likes, of course.


hotel with kitchenette, grocery store, picnic in the park with the CEO's, etc.:biggrin:


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## joncnca (Jul 12, 2009)

i'll call my credit card company in a couple of days when the transaction settles. it amounts to a few dollars more than i had already left as a tip, but on principle, i feel this is wrong.

it wasn't a chip transaction, i got a slip with a line to write down the tip myself. i always (well, 99% of the time - one time the waiter dropped food on my wife's clothing, left a big stain we knew wouldn't come out, and while it was an accident, i didn't leave anything) leave a tip because it's a social norm, and i leave between 15-20%. 

i'd much rather gratuity be included in the price of the meal, and i agree that it's like funding tax evasion and like a tax that isn't a tax, cause it doesn't help everyone equally...at least taxes are supposed to help the public, and there are criteria, and they are intended to be fair to the public. kind of like how the 5 cent charge on plastic bags in toronto is not a tax, it's just profit, and would be better if it was a tax, if not eliminated entirely.

anyway, i also agree that it's totally unfair compared to another minimum wage worker who doesn't get tipped. why do they get tipped when other minimum wage workers don't get tipped. furthermore, tips aren't based on luck, they aren't even based on service. MOST waiters give similar service, i mean, isn't it a basic courtesy to greet your guests, smile, and generally be pleasant? everyone in every job is expected to do these things, no? and taking an order and bringing food is actually the job itself...so what're you tipping for really? some people give exceptional service, but i think that's really the exception. i think often times tipping ends up coming down to how good the person looks...which is further unfair to other waiters and other workers


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

KaeJS said:


> Oh - and it's not my fault if the waiter/waitress is poor, either.


You can rest assured that the server is making more money than you are - both before tax, and after tax.
Quite a bit more.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Synergy said:


> hotel with kitchenette, grocery store, picnic in the park with the CEO's, etc.:biggrin:


 ... if I was CEO of a firm, you're hired for the "picnic" event. Since I'm not, then it's either a 4 or 5 stars diner with the CEO. Of course, the tab goes to her/him. :biggrin:


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> You can rest assured that the server is making more money than you are - both before tax, and after tax.
> Quite a bit more.


My dear friend HaroldCrump, this is another reason why I do not tip. You are absolutely, 100% correct.


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> My dear friend HaroldCrump, this is another reason why I do not tip. You are absolutely, 100% correct.


The only reason wait staff make more than us is because of the tips! You would not be correct if people do not tip!


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

lonewolf said:


> There are a lot of people working for minimum wage *it is just not right that they are expected to tip*. By the time they pay taxes are taken off their check they are having to work a half hour plus just to pay the tip. The ratio of time spent by the minimum wage worker working & the sever waiting on the minimum wage worker is often way out of wack with the minimum wage worker having to spend a lot more time @ work for the amount of money given as a tip.
> 
> On a $50 dollar order a 10% - 20% tip the minimum wage worker needs to work @ least a half hour to over an hour just to pay the tip. If the server does 4 or 5 tables in the hour with tips plus gets paid the minimum they are making out like bandits. The people being served are being robbed & they are doing the looting out of their own pockets by giving in to a lousy system.
> 
> There is a reason Mcdonalds does so well. (no tipping)


Tipping at full service restaurants is the social norm in Canada. This expectation is clear before a customer walks in the store. 

I am not sure why you make a distinction based on how much a person makes. Is it right that a person who makes a lot of money be expected to tip? Should we pay different amounts for a bag of milk or a new car based on our salary?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

m3s said:


> Which only makes sense and is more equitable for all involved.
> 
> I don't like the tipping system because some get underpaid and others make off like bandits for petty reasons or luck really.
> 
> It's also unfair for taxpayers to make up for all the tax evasion and unfair for the good tippers to make up for bad tippers etc.


If we wouldn't have "tipping" system (like Europe doesn't), we would go to restaurant much more frequently... me and my wife always disagree on amount of tipping


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

tipping is a standard practice around here and a norm, even ministry of labour approved lower minimum wage for alcohol servers than for everyone else for that reason, it's been the case for a long time. Don't like the fact that in some cases tip is already included.
If the tip amount is changed later on just call CC.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> I rarely tip.


Me 2  When immigrating from country to country, I always was starting with minimum pay jobs...and NOBODY NEVER in my live tipped me...Why should I? I never tip in buffets like Mandarin, like in some restaurans like The Keg and never more than 10%...
Also don't tip anyone else, like taxi drivers, barbers and so on....


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Homerhomer said:


> even ministry of labour approved lower minimum wage for alcohol servers than for everyone else for that reason, it's been the case for a long time.


I hate it when people whine that tipping is "needed" because of this reduced minimum wage. So $1/hour less of your taxable wages really justifies you raking in $10-50+ /hour in additional income (and often unreported income)? I don't think so! If a server was working 5 tables an hour and got $2/tip she would be making double her salary. Doesn't sound too shabby to me. In actuality I'm sure they are making much more.

I tip, but am stingy with it. 15% maybe for good service. 10% for average, and less for worse. Sometimes I've tipped 20-30% for an outstanding meal and service, but rarely.

I also tip less if the food or venue is no good. People always say that that is "unfair" because it's not the server's fault. Those people are messing with the market forces. 

It should go like this:
Restaurant is bad, tip less
Servers get pissed they are making less
They hear servers at other good restaurants are making much more in tips because the restaurant doesn't suck
Servers leave bad restaurant, and smack talk it to all their server friends.
Eventually, the owner of the bad restaurant can't find any good workers, and either must close up shop or improve his business.

When you tip well at a crappy restaurant you are just encouraging the restaurant to continue with its crappy ways, and dragging down the whole neighborhood by allowing it to continue on.


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

peterk said:


> *I hate* it when people *whine* that tipping is "needed" because of this reduced minimum wage. .


I didn't whine, just stated the fact, but you can hate all you want ;-) More so I never said the tipping is needed because of lower minimum wage, the point you missed was that tipping is the norm to the extent the government has recognized it as a standard.


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## canadian_investor (Jul 4, 2011)

peterk said:


> I hate it when people whine that tipping is "needed" because of this reduced minimum wage.


i agree with peterk and gibor. chalk me down as an anti-tipper as well.
the expectation of tipping these days it has all gone completely crazy.
every kind of retail business has now added a tipping line to their receipts, or added the tip option to their credit card processing machines.
even takeout fast food places.
you have to keep clicking No (or 0%) on their CC machines to pay your tab.
this whole thing is out of control.

the regulators and the food service industry needs to fix their problems, not the customers.
pay your servers a fair wage and include that cost in the final bill, just like every other industry.
if that means a chicken & pasta lunch is $40 instead of $10 then so be it.
consumers will make their decisions accordingly (to eat there or not).

i find most of the restuarant food to be poor quality anyway.
it is not fresh, poorly prepared, not nutritious, overloaded with oil, salt and transfat.
add the fact that most servers make fun of customers behind our backs.
waiters cannot stand customers and all they care about is how much this person is going to tip me.

i express my protest against this practice by not eating out except maybe one or twice a year.
i find it amusing that not only do people put up with it but actually defend this practice.
oh well keep overpaying for crappy food.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_tipping is the norm to the extent the government has recognized it as a standard._ Many thing that were a norm in North America , it's obsolete now  Same will be with tipping.... myself and canadian_investor are not the only people who visit restaurants much less because of the "tipping" system....


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Got a speeding ticket once.....really polite cop, so I tried tipping him.....ended up with a summons....WTF?


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Homerhomer said:


> I didn't whine, just stated the fact, but you can hate all you want ;-) More so I never said the tipping is needed because of lower minimum wage, the point you missed was that tipping is the norm to the extent the government has recognized it as a standard.


Noo I didn't mean to imply you were saying any such thing or whining Homer. I was just using your statement of the lowered wage as a jumping off point for my own comments. 

And as you point out, the government recognizes that tipping is standard. I suppose it is our obligation then to make sure that the $1/hour lost to the server is made back through tips. So I guess that giving about 25c/visit would be the fair amount, depending how busy the restaurant seemed. :biggrin:


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Nemo2 said:


> Got a speeding ticket once.....really polite cop, so I tried tipping him.....ended up with a summons....WTF?


You shouldn't tip....you should've ask if you can get discount if you pay cash on the spot


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## GreedIsGood (Dec 4, 2013)

Hmmm... You guys definitely bring up good points against tipping.

I've always heard in Canada, 15% is the norm. Usually I just tip $3 for service. I've never received what you would deem as "exceptional" service nor have I ever received an awful experience. It's just taking our order, getting our drinks and meals, asking how our meal is once, and getting the cheque.

I don't like to tip mainly because it's just an added cost. Also I don't think tipping is fair anyways because, like other posters have said, it has nothing to do with service but dependent on attractiveness of the waitress (not waiter).

This thread has definitely made me rethink tipping.


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Nemo2 said:


> Got a speeding ticket once.....really polite cop, so I tried tipping him.....ended up with a summons....WTF?


you should have asked first if he/she makes less or more than minimum wage ;-)


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Nemo2 said:


> Got a speeding ticket once.....really polite cop, so I tried tipping him.....ended up with a summons....WTF?


 ... obviously, you used the wrong kind of tip or maybe the way you tipped ... try a TH gift card next time - might work... worked for a doofus friend of a friend. $50 worth of gift cards is alot cheaper than $200 and no demerit points! :eek2:


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

GreedIsGood said:


> It's just taking our order, getting our drinks and meals, asking how our meal is once, and getting the cheque.


that is standard service in a sit-down restuarant.
i don't see the need to tip for that. the cost of that should be included in the cost of the meal.

what would be considered exceptional service...i dunno...maybe expert advice on wine selection?
but how many servers know anything about wines anyway...all they know are some vague tidbits about what type of wine it is.
i really can't think of what can be considered outstanding service in any of the chain restuarants like Keg, Boston Pizza, Kelseys etc that could justify 18% or 20% tipping.
20% is 1/5th of your bill.
tipping 1/5th of your bill is absolute nuts. and for what?


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

SixesAndSevens said:


> tipping 1/5th of your bill is absolute nuts. and for what?


So they don't spit on your burger next time around?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ ... Lol!


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## Cdnwife (Sep 10, 2013)

I have a one and three year old. I tip, as often the server has earned it as we ask for a lot to keep the kidlets happy. Getting the bun in advance, extra straws, more napkins, and then there is the extra work of cleaning up the table once we are gone. If we dine as a family, the server does deserve something extra as we are more work than other tables.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Cdnwife said:


> I have a one and three year old. I tip, as often the server has earned it as we ask for a lot to keep the kidlets happy. Getting the bun in advance, extra straws, more napkins, and then there is the extra work of cleaning up the table once we are gone. If we dine as a family, the server does deserve something extra as we are more work than other tables.


And we have grown kids, maybe we should get discount as very little work left after we leave?!


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

GreedIsGood said:


> Hmmm... You guys definitely bring up good points against tipping.
> 
> *I've always heard in Canada, 15% is the norm*. Usually I just tip $3 for service. I've never received what you would deem as "exceptional" service nor have I ever received an awful experience. It's just taking our order, getting our drinks and meals, asking how our meal is once, and getting the cheque.
> 
> ...


Any of the older people out there remember when it was the norm to tip 10%? I recall that the argument for changing to 15% was inflation, but that didn't make sense to me. The food prices increased too, so that the dollar value of tips has also increased.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Guban said:


> I recall that the argument for changing to 15% was inflation, but that didn't make sense to me. .


and who chaged it to 15%?! Is it some law that I'm not aware of?!


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## ChrisR (Jul 13, 2009)

Cdnwife said:


> I have a one and three year old. I tip, as often the server has earned it as we ask for a lot to keep the kidlets happy. Getting the bun in advance, extra straws, more napkins, and then there is the extra work of cleaning up the table once we are gone. If we dine as a family, the server does deserve something extra as we are more work than other tables.


Should you tip daycare workers? Because they almost certainly make minimum wage and actually have to care for the kids!


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## Cdnwife (Sep 10, 2013)

I can assure you the lady who looks after my kids is paid more than minimum wage. Between my kids and the other ones she cares for she is making more than $10.25/hr.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

I've been a professional bartender for 30 years... I think I'll stay out of this one.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Don't worry indexx, there're no conflict of interest rules on this forum. :biggrin: 

By admission to your profession (and 30 years, wow), you would be the best candidate to speak up on this topic.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

gibor said:


> And we have grown kids, maybe we should get discount as very little work left after we leave?!


 ... actually, you should get your kids to cook for you so zero tipping. :biggrin:

Btw, the European's method of including the tip in the meal is less transparent if you actually think about it. Cheers,


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## PrairieGal (Apr 2, 2011)

It takes no more effort to serve a steak than a sandwich so why does the server get tipped more? Then if you drink cocktails instead of water, the tips go up even more. I have always thought that was strange. Then there is the hairdresser, taxi driver, pizza delivery guy, etc. Also, what about the people that work in fast food, retail, or other low paying jobs. Why aren't they making tips? 

What I mainly object to is that people that are tipped largely get that income tax free. Sure, they are supposed to declare it on their taxes, and most do declare some to keep the govt. pacified, but in my experience, what they declare is a small percentage of what they actually make. This is from years of doing taxes. I used to be the bookkeeper for a group of restaurants. The servers got audited by the CRA for gratuities, and got dinged big time for penalties and taxes. I have to pay taxes on all my income, I don't see why people who earn tips aren't paying on all of theirs. If we went to the European or Australian model of not tipping, at least the servers would be paying taxes on their income. 

One server I did taxes for last year had no income tax deducted at source, and got the Working Income Tax Benefit, so ended up getting a $1600 "refund" on her tax return. She drives a convertible sports car in the summer and a Durango in the winter. She declared $2000 in tips for the year.


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## liquidfinance (Jan 28, 2011)

PrairieGal said:


> One server I did taxes for last year had no income tax deducted at source, and got the Working Income Tax Benefit, so ended up getting a $1600 "refund" on her tax return. She drives a convertible sports car in the summer and a Durango in the winter. She declared $2000 in tips for the year.



That there is exactly why I despise this model that it is expected to tip a certain % of the bill. Everyone is aww the poor servers in such low paid jobs. Who is getting the last laugh here?


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Beaver101 said:


> ... ...
> Btw, the European's method of including the tip in the meal is less transparent if you actually think about it. Cheers,


No, because the price of the meal would be what it says on the menu, not the stated price plus 10-20%. (and we won't go into PST/HST, that's a debate for another thread.) You are paying for a commodity and service - how that gets divided between the owner's costs; owner's profit; and staff wages is not explained with a tipping system either.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... actually, you should get your kids to cook for you so zero tipping. :biggrin:
> 
> Btw, the European's method of including the tip in the meal is less transparent if you actually think about it. Cheers,


What do you mean "less transparent"?! Before entering restaurant I see menu/prices and know how much exactly I have to pay....no one expects tip from me


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

And the argument that tipping is necessary to ensure good service is nonsense. Many businesses depend on delivering good service for repeat business and don't operate on the tipping model. I think the government should take the minimum wage for servers back on line with all other professions and require restaurants to no longer solicit gratuities.


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

I agree about the tip definitely being earned when we used to dine with 4 young children. Just on free refills for chocolate milk which doesn't usually fall under the 'free refill' umbrella as well as all the other running around. My experience in the GTA is that the Interac terminals are actually defaulting to a 20% tip unless one changes it. I like the European model of no additional tipping. You see what the prices are and you decide. No expectation of an additional tip. I can recall instances when dining with friends in the Ukraine that they actually told me I could not leave a tip for the staff. Rather comical as in these instances I actually felt that they had earned a little extra.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Nemo2 said:


> Got a speeding ticket once.....really polite cop, so I tried tipping him.....ended up with a summons....WTF?


Lol...



Cdnwife said:


> I have a one and three year old. I tip, as often the server has earned it as we ask for a lot to keep the kidlets happy. Getting the bun in advance, extra straws, more napkins, and then there is the extra work of cleaning up the table once we are gone. If we dine as a family, the server does deserve something extra as we are more work than other tables.


We have always been good tippers, and became excellent tippers when we had kids. If we have left a larger mess, or if the server has done a lot to keep our kids happy, we will leave up to 25 or 30% for exceptional service. 




ChrisR said:


> Should you tip daycare workers? Because they almost certainly make minimum wage and actually have to care for the kids!


We tip our nanny, babysitters, and people who have provided child care and they are making well above minimum wage. 


Tip is a part if etiquette, and a general accepted norm here. There books written on tipping etiquette. Like any other etiquette one can choose to follow it or not. It is like please and thank you, you don't have to say it, it's not the law, but some way judgement on the type of person you are. If you don't care what people think, then don't tip. If you do care, then top, or don't go out with others whom you care about their opinion.

We had a person in our office that refused to tip, it made the rest of us uncomfortable so we would pay for his tip. We just stopped asking him to join us.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

I have never received a tip working for 35 years. I must be horrible at my job.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Don't worry indexx, there're no conflict of interest rules on this forum. :biggrin:
> 
> By admission to your profession (and 30 years, wow), you would be the best candidate to speak up on this topic.


I already went into this at length on an older thread on CMF- it's a waste of my energy.


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

Most of the high end restaurants servers have 2 or 3 tables and the turn over is 1 hr . So dinner 5:30 to 8 they will have between 5-9 tables no real excuse for bad serves. 

Then they share that tip with bus staff and the kitchen.


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## NorthKC (Apr 1, 2013)

I really dislike tipping nowadays as the servers "expect" a tip. The meaning behind the tip means paying when you've received good service that they're went above and beyond their job. It's incredibly frustrating when the server gets mad when I give a low tip or none at all or just plain average. 

Case in point, I went to a bar with my ball team and since I could not stay there long, I chose not to drink as I was going to be driving (perfectly fine) so I asked for a coke which never arrived at my table despite my repeated request. I also ordered a small hot appetizer, it arrived at my table long after everyone else was done despite my repeated requests and it wasn't very hot when it arrived. So needless to say when the bill came, I left 1 cent to show my displeasure. She blew up in front of my team. I outlined the poor service (oh, and the bar was empty, we were the only ones there so there was no excuse). I outlined everything she did wrong while highlighting the fact that she went out of her way for everyone else. Yeah, needless to say I spread the word about her very quickly. If you give me crappy service (with exception of being really busy in the place), expect a crappy tip. If you treat me well (doing things beyond your duties), I will give you a nice tip. If you go out of your way, expect a fantastic tip. Plain and simple. Oh yeah, and be appreciative. A tip is considered a bonus. Treat it as such!

Now there's a tip jar for fast food places...seriously? I don't even bother going there anymore, I consider that rude. If you feel the need to leave a tip jar out, pay your workers more. 


Disclaimer: I used to worker as a server and was always very appreciative of any tips that I have received and worked harder if I received a bad tip (through my own fault) and make it up to them. A tip is an incentive to work hard, nothing more, nothing less.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

indexxx said:


> I already went into this at length on an older thread on CMF-*it's a waste of my energy*.


 ... wasn't aware of this and I agree it's time consuming debating this option for customers/consumers.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

hystat said:


> I have never received a tip working for 35 years. I must be horrible at my job.


 ... that would be really bad if you're the boss too. :biggrin:


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

hystat said:


> I have never received a tip working for 35 years.


One of the drawbacks of being an undertaker.............lack of repeat business being another.


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## randomthoughts (May 23, 2010)

Didn't the thread get pretty far afield? (I think the tipping culture is annoying, but treat it as a social convention - though I will not tip for bad service, that's insult on injury. An insult tip is an indication that I won't ever return.)

If you have proof of the fraud, you should pursue it until the matter is resolved to your satisfaction. If not, it's still unacceptable but maybe the take-away is to ensure that you have proof in the future (take a smartphone pic) - you could still report it though.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

NorthKC said:


> I really dislike tipping nowadays as the servers "expect" a tip. The meaning behind the tip means paying when you've received good service that they're went above and beyond their job. It's incredibly frustrating when the server gets mad when I give a low tip or none at all or just plain average.
> 
> Case in point, I went to a bar with my ball team and since I could not stay there long, I chose not to drink as I was going to be driving (perfectly fine) so I asked for a coke which never arrived at my table despite my repeated request. I also ordered a small hot appetizer, it arrived at my table long after everyone else was done despite my repeated requests and it wasn't very hot when it arrived. So needless to say when the bill came, I left 1 cent to show my displeasure. She blew up in front of my team. I outlined the poor service (oh, and the bar was empty, we were the only ones there so there was no excuse). I outlined everything she did wrong while highlighting the fact that she went out of her way for everyone else. Yeah, needless to say I spread the word about her very quickly. If you give me crappy service (with exception of being really busy in the place), expect a crappy tip. If you treat me well (doing things beyond your duties), I will give you a nice tip. If you go out of your way, expect a fantastic tip. Plain and simple. Oh yeah, and be appreciative. A tip is considered a bonus. Treat it as such!
> 
> ...


As a bar/restaurant manager, I have fired employees for both this poor level of service and more pointedly, for questioning the tip or lack thereof, particularly in front of the patron's friends. Incredibly bad form and I would go back and speak to the manager- that is incredibly offensive on the part of the server. And write a Yelp review outlining the incident including date and time with a description of the server in question. any manager worth their salt will take action. I gave someone a $25 gift certificate once when they brought this type of behaviour to my attention. Inexcusable.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

NorthKC said:


> Now there's a tip jar for fast food places...seriously? I don't even bother going there anymore, I consider that rude. If you feel the need to leave a tip jar out, pay your workers more.


Depends on the place, I suppose. Back when I worked McDonald's, it was policy that we could not accept any tip. Even if we just cleaned up some huge mess someone's kids made or went out of our way to help a client.

What really bugs me is the machines where you can specify tip as a % and it gets calculated on the after tax amount. I mean, seriously, you expect tip on the taxes? Most people probably never notice and I find that plain dishonest. It's just a sneaky way to get an extra 2% tip.


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