# Minimum wage increases



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

So the minimum wage seems to have increased across the country, or is about to.

In Alberta only 1.5% earn minimum wage, whereas Ontario is approaching 10%. The liberals in Ontario are looking for a further increase from $11 to $14 as an election issue. 

Of course the unions are salivating about the possibility so they can demand similar increases.

Of course to fund these increases (wages account for around 70% of expenses), prices will have to increase, increasing the cost of living, putting pressure on the living wage...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I put the blame squarely where it belongs............those greedy Walmart greeters.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

No matter, the Harper Gov't will simply let more TFW's into the country. 

It appears that they are currently effectively paid less than minimum wage and no overtime. Seems to work for very well for some popular hamburger and coffee franchises.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

fraser said:


> No matter, the Harper Gov't will simply let more TFW's into the country.
> 
> It appears that they are currently effectively paid less than minimum wage and no overtime. Seems to work for very well for some popular hamburger and coffee franchises.


Welcome to the new Canadian economy. Canadians here don't want to work for less than minimum wage. After they deduct income taxes, EI and CPP...might as well give them the rest and go
on welfare..pays better AND....it's tax free!


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

What right does the government have not letting those that want to work not being able to work ?

If a worker is not worth minimum wage who is going to pay them ? The free market might allow a worker to work below minimum wage @ least this way they still have a job. 

It wasn't that long ago when there were wage & price controls. The government has to big of an ego when it thinks it can do a better job then the free market. They do not see the unforeseen consequences of their actions. i.e., wage controls resulted in companies & government giving benefits to attract workers now they are having trouble funding the benefits. Sure the benefits are nice the problem is someone has to pay the piper.


The government destroys the money world . We need money that is not political, The free market would do a better job then the government perhaps one day digital currency that is not controlled politically will be the new money.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Great to see the BC minimum wage increasing. It will be the highest in the country at $15.20 an hour, starting tomorrow. That's a 4.1% increase from a year ago.

Considering that rich asset holders are seeing such enormous year-on-year increases in their wealth, these wage increases are still tiny in the big scheme of things. For example diversified market investments are rising at 7% to 10% a year, and real estate at maybe 20% a year recently -- all of this thanks to stimulus programs from the Bank of Canada, the institution which provides handouts to the rich. As a country, we _especially_ provide massive handouts and welfare to real estate investors.

In comparison, a 4% increase in wages isn't terribly impressive, but still better than nothing.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Considering that rich asset holders are seeing such enormous year-on-year increases in their wealth, these wage increases are still tiny in the big scheme of things. For example diversified market investments are rising at 6% or 7% a year, and real estate at maybe 20% a year recently. The rich certainly do enjoy their asset inflation. In comparison, a 4% increase in wages isn't terribly impressive.


Just my opinion, but I always make the delineation between wealth and income. Just because housing prices rise and make someone "richer", it doesn't mean they have more disposable income to spend. That's why I'm not too impressed with people saying that homeowners are trying to keep the bubble inflated, because as a homeowner, who doesn't plan on getting a HELOC, or moving, and has already paid off the mortgage, housing price increases do nothing for me.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

bgc_fan said:


> Just my opinion, but I always make the delineation between wealth and income. Just because housing prices rise and make someone "richer", it doesn't mean they have more disposable income to spend


This is true for primary residences, I agree, but they are only one player in the economy. We also have massive numbers of real estate investors in this country, and these people buy properties (subsidized by government welfare programs), flip them, rent them out, acquire loans against them, and in general extract lots of wealth from the process.

Asset price inflation in general does make the rich notably richer and give them more income. It's not just on paper. I agree with you that primary residences are a different category, but that still doesn't change the fact that other rich people in Canada enjoy tremendous asset inflation from government stimulus programs.

As a society, I'm not sure how we can justify making wealthy asset holders so rich off the public's back, while lower income workers are given token gestures such as 2% or 4% wage hikes. It's pretty insulting, and extremely unfair to lower/middle classes.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Great to see the BC minimum wage increasing. It will be the highest in the country at $15.20 an hour, starting tomorrow. That's a 4.1% increase from a year ago.


horrible, I hope not too many people lose their jobs.

But great timing, they'll blame all the business closures and lost jobs on COVID.


I always think it's odd that people would suggest being unemployed is somehow better than working at "only" $14/hr


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

It's so stupid to made such increases for minimum wage esp during all those lockdowns when small businesses are destroyed


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

james4beach said:


> This is true for primary residences, I agree, but they are only one player in the economy. We also have massive numbers of real estate investors in this country, and these people buy properties (subsidized by government welfare programs), flip them, rent them out, acquire loans against them, and in general extract lots of wealth from the process.


Well, yes, there are a number on this forum that do that. In some cases, I'd say that's a fairly big contributor to the housing bubble, a bit of a positive feedback loop: buy investment properties, have them go up, mortgage them again, buy more properties, which then raises the prices. And I'm not talking about flippers either.



james4beach said:


> Asset price inflation in general does make the rich notably richer and give them more income. It's not just on paper. I agree with you that primary residences are a different category, but that still doesn't change the fact that other rich people in Canada enjoy tremendous asset inflation from government stimulus programs.


Hmm, depends on asset, as income and asset values don't necessarily move in lockstep. It depends on what you do with the asset. For example, someone with a buy and hold for long-term, or dividends, isn't going to gain much with short term increases in stock valuation. Someone who is an active stock trader, would.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> horrible, I hope not too many people lose their jobs.
> 
> But great timing, they'll blame all the business closures and lost jobs on COVID.
> 
> ...


Doug Ford, before the election, had predicted that increasing the minimum wage in Ontario was going to be a job-killer. Around that time, economists were also anticipating a recession was coming.

Well, jobs weren't lost. Instead, the economy held steady and even grew. Increasing the minimum wage helped stabilize the economy by allowing the poorest people maintain spending on staples and necessities.

People who oppose increasing minimum wages are usually always earning more.

Doug Ford had also predicted the carbon tax was going to be a job-killer too. Nope, didn't happen. Covid was a self-induced recession and even now, you know everybody is willing and anxious to go back out and spend.

And then in 2010, Doug's brother Rob said the Toronto Levy on Land Transfer was going to kill real estate. Nope. Never happened.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

james4beach said:


> Great to see the BC minimum wage increasing. It will be the highest in the country at $15.20 an hour, starting tomorrow. That's a 4.1% increase from a year ago.
> 
> Considering that rich asset holders are seeing such enormous year-on-year increases in their wealth, these wage increases are still tiny in the big scheme of things. For example diversified market investments are rising at 7% to 10% a year, and real estate at maybe 20% a year recently -- all of this thanks to stimulus programs from the Bank of Canada, the institution which provides handouts to the rich. As a country, we _especially_ provide massive handouts and welfare to real estate investors.
> 
> In comparison, a 4% increase in wages isn't terribly impressive, but still better than nothing.


Now many more people will be able to keep their bank accounts at the higher minimum balances and avoid paying increased service charges.

Good for the banks too since there won't be as many closed accounts.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Tostig said:


> Doug Ford, before the election, had predicted that increasing the minimum wage in Ontario was going to be a job-killer. Around that time, economists were also anticipating a recession was coming.
> 
> Well, jobs weren't lost. Instead, the economy held steady and even grew. Increasing the minimum wage helped stabilize the economy by allowing the poorest people maintain spending on staples and necessities.
> 
> ...


Increasing minimum wage costs jobs and costs hours worked for some, while those that are left might make slightly more.
Some win a little, some lose a lot.

Maybe you haven't been unemployed, but having $0/hr for 0 hours is a really low income.
People who support raising minimum wage usually think every employer is rich.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If employers raise the price of their products by a little to pay decent wages........I am happy to pay the higher prices.

Canadian workers have been competing with Chinese workers whose products are dumped into Canada at subsidized prices.

Canada just put a 250% tariff on furniture made in China because they were dumping and subsidizing the Chinese companies.

A recliner went from $700 to $2500 in price. Canadian manufacturers say it will save jobs.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> If employers raise the price of their products by a little to pay decent wages........I am happy to pay the higher prices.


Because you don't see how inflation is bad, and particularly bad on those with low incomes.

You see, that's my opposition to these policies that hurt lower income people. Rich people like sags don't care if it helps or hurts them, as long as they feel like they're "doing something".

Hurting people, because it makes you feel good, is just wrong. We have words for that type of behaviour.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

You argue against higher wages for low income workers and then talk about how inflation is hurting low income people.

You need to pick a lane. You are all over the place and lacking in focus and consistency.

I favor higher wages for low income workers and the companies to have the ability to pass on the costs by removing cheap competition from unfair trade practices.

What do you favor ?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> You argue against higher wages for low income workers and then talk about how inflation is hurting low income people.


No I don't.
I'm actually for higher wages for low income workers, and more jobs for all people.
That's why I'm against minimum wage laws.



> You need to pick a lane. You are all over the place and lacking in focus and consistency.


The only recent flipflop I've had was on the first dose, extended intervals on COVID19.



> I favor higher wages for low income workers and the companies to have the ability to pass on the costs by removing cheap competition from unfair trade practices.
> 
> What do you favor ?


I favour more jobs and higher incomes for all workers.
I also support training and skills development to further increase incomes.

I'm also very concerned with inflationary pressure, and it's impact on personal finance.


What we have here is a disagreement on economics.
If you have a worker who generates $15/hr in value, you simply can't afford to pay them $16/hr.
Your "answer" is that the business should close, and that person should lose their job
Or that the company should increase prices. Which means that $16 doesn't go as far anymore due to higher prices.

The better answer is to make that worker more valuable, if that worker generated $20/hr in value, they would deserve a higher wage.


But don't worry, the minimum wage jobs are being replaced by outsourcing, automation and the gig economy.
Who needs minimum wage when you simply pay a contractor $5 to deliver your restaurant order. The business gets rid of all that employee overhead, the worker gets paid less, and you still get your food.

But don't worry they'll ban that too.
So that when you write an article for a newspaper or magazine, they'll be prohibited from paying you for it, lest you become an "employee".

Really the economic policies you're advocating for hurt people, kill small business.
But I guess you just want to make elites and their friends to be even richer and more powerful, at the expense of the rest of us.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> You need to pick a lane. You are all over the place and lacking in focus and consistency.


You need to be honest with yourself.
You're not in the "lane' you think you are. 

You're pushing policies that hurt the poor, and keep people poor.
Don't you care about them?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The old economic theories were developed long before there was global free trade, the internet and the development of disruptive technologies.

It is well documented that wages have not benefited from increased productivity for decades.

That is why many economists are abandoning the old theories and adopting new economic models that reflect the world as it now exists.

Raising minimum wages is only a stop gap measure until the economy transitions into modern economic models.

Change is always difficult for people to accept, but it is relentless and must be addressed regardless.

The middle class is disappearing and the wealth and income gulf is widening.......year after year after year.

The current economic model is the one that is unsustainable.........not the future economic models.

I have no doubt that in the future there will be a guaranteed basic income for everyone, and those who wish to improve their lives above the most basic level will work to gain more income. Some may choose to do nothing........but they will have to live the basic life that will provide.

Years from now you wouldn't recognize the new world from what is today.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The old economic theories were developed long before there was global free trade, the internet and the development of disruptive technologies.


Right "this time it's different".
That what people say just before they make a bad decision.



> Raising minimum wages is only a stop gap measure until the economy transitions into modern economic models.


No, raising minimum wage is a harmful ploy to buy votes.



> Years from now you wouldn't recognize the new world from what is today.


yes, you and your rich buddies are really trying to push the new world order where they will have all the power.

I don't know why you are trying to give all the power to the rich, but you're old and I guess you just don't care about future generations.


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## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

I moved off topic political post(s) to the Politics thread.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

This is kind of related, particularly when you talk about the difference between low and high wealthy households. All have seen an increase over the last year: Posthaste: Frugal Canadians diligently cut non-mortgage debt even as household net worth climbs to $12.8 trillion

Obviously, with math being as it is, those on the lower spectrum had a higher percentage increase, but still, people were able to cut down some consumer debt. Whether you want to attribute that to the policies put into place last year is up to you.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> raising minimum wage is a harmful ploy to buy votes.


 100%


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