# Fix / replace chimney or get a tankless water heater



## AMABILE (Apr 3, 2009)

I just had a new boiler installed by direct energy
which doesn't have to go through the chimney
but a new liner ($600) for my direct energy water heater rental does
when installing the liner, i was advised that my chimney was damaged
2 quotes @ $700 to replace the top concrete and 3-4 layers of bricks
another quote for $1900 that the whole chimney needed new bricks
or get a tankless water heater that doesn't need a chimney.
do i fix the only the top layers, replace the whole chimney
or get a tankless water heater ?


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

Have you looked at the possibility of putting in a high efficiency, power vented water heater that exhausts out the side of you house? 

You may still have to be careful about the brick and concrete damage on the chimney, as that may have to be fixed eventually or it may fall on somebody.


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## LBCfan (Jan 13, 2011)

What Guban said. With particular reference to what it might cost to "decommission" the chimney.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Or maybe just an electric water heater?


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I would agree with what the other's say(high efficiency)
I am a roofing contractor and we do a number of service calls to dismantle chimneys.
One is if you leave the chase as is your are actually not being efficient since they release a lot of heat.
2nd is chimney's are notorious for 'pin' leaks(flashing etc fail from weather elements overtime)
Best to knock it down flush with the roof plane(the chimney chase)and stuff it with insulation)
This is by far the trend in the general population.

Also depending where your chase is inside the home,sometimes you can gain extra space which can be a added bonus.
Most roofing companies would charge around 500.00 for basic removal on a standard small chase(couple hours for labor)
I personally wouldn't hire a mason contractor for said task of re bricking.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Wait a second,i just reread your post.
Why and who?informed you to vent water heater out of a chimney?and more importantly charged you 600 hundred for a new liner?
This guys are taking the path of least resistance and on top of that gouge you for new liner(should be vented out a wall!
Your stuck with said chimney now that i read your post again...bunch of lazy inept contractors(didn't want to drill a hole through exterior and to top it off charge you a high margin product(liner)
Your stuck with chimney because of the actions of the contractor who installed your water tank.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

AMABILE said:


> I just had a new boiler installed by direct energy
> which doesn't have to go through the chimney ... do i fix the only the top layers, replace the whole chimney or get a tankless water heater ?


My understanding, your boiler and water heater are separate systems. If so, I would question my current gas water heater contract (which may be the problem) and ask higher up about swapping out the old heater for a new one that vents through the wall ... why is that not possible I ask myself, why is tank less the only solution. Depending on the contract, I myself would forget the gas and switch to an electric water heater ... at least get yourself a quote (I'd be installing mine myself), and have the old chimney taken down to the roof line and capped, or below the roof line if the chimney goes through the roof, and have the roof patched overtop (which is what I did with one of my no longer functional chimneys). Most of what I've read suggests against tankless water heaters ... there's lots of articles on line but maybe that's your only choice for whatever reason.

One last thing ... if you haven't already, call Direct Energy, discuss the situation. They've provide me excellent service over the years, especially the technical people ... could be you've come across a questionable sales person.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

If I'm understanding this correctly, a boiler would need a chimney to vent and the chimney in turn, would need a liner. A water "gas" heater would not need a chimney to vent as it could vent through an exhaust pipe coming from the side of the house. 

Since you had the boiler installed and the chimney-lined (and damaged), then one of the question would it make sense/effective to install a "gas" water heater so as to make use of the chimney vent? And if so, should the chimney just be fixed or completely rebuilt? I think depending on the extent of the damage of the chimney, it could be fixed (cheaper) instead of rebuilt but you would need to ensure that it be able to handle the (extra) gas water heater venting. Then the alternatives are an electric water heater or the tankless water heater option (last).


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

A standard gas fired water heater would need a chimney. They're inefficient enough and the gasses hot enough, that they naturally convect out the chimney, just like an old furnace. You can get a power vent model for a bit more money that does away with the chimney but instead runs through piping through the walls. Power vent models are also typically lower on the efficiency scale, so the piping required is high temperature resistant. A tankless water heater is high efficiency and can vent out the walls with PVC piping. There are also condensing high efficiency tank water heaters that are power vent models that would go through PVC piping as well, but the tanks themselves are quite expensive.
Depending on where your exterior wall is relative to the water heater, the cheapest system would be a standard gas water heater with power vent option.
However, if you have a high efficiency, condensing boiler of enough size, you can get a plumber to run a loop off it to supply domestic hot water as well. This is quite common and any decent plumber should be able to provide. IF your boiler is big enough (the domestic hot water requirement is the bigger component), it's not expensive to add this in.


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## thompsg4416 (Aug 18, 2010)

Don't forget a chimney is something that will always need to be maintained. My good friend who is a mason who makes good money on chimney repair is the one who gave me the advice - if you can get rid of the chimney do it. If you can go side vented and while lowering your monthly bills I'd do it.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

nobleea said:


> A standard gas fired water heater would need a chimney. They're inefficient enough and the gasses hot enough, that they naturally convect out the chimney, just like an old furnace. You can get a power vent model for a bit more money that does away with the chimney but instead runs through piping through the walls. Power vent models are also typically lower on the efficiency scale, so the piping required is high temperature resistant.


To my knowledge all power vents use standard PVC pipe (like an HE furance) to exhaust through walls, which is what I have. As mentioned, regular gas water heaters require a chimney and can't be vented through wall unless a complete b-vent (wall chimney) is installed. Normally an older combined chimney for both a furnace and water heater were 6" and, depending on local codes, a chimney for just the water heater will need to be downsized to a 4" so a liner will need to be installed. Depending on local costs, a power vent will be close in price (likely a bit less) to a regular gas water heater + new liner. Of course with a regular gas heater you get greater reliability (no motor to burn out), less noise and lower future costs if you need to replace it again as the liner upgrade it just a one time cost.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

thompsg4416 said:


> Don't forget a chimney is something that will always need to be maintained. My good friend who is a mason who makes good money on chimney repair is the one who gave me the advice - if you can get rid of the chimney do it. If you can go side vented and while lowering your monthly bills I'd do it.


I second that ... the $1000 I saved by not lining the old chimney went a long way towards the cost of the new high efficiency condensing through the wall furnace ... and no future chimney maintenance ... and ... anyone remember the cold winter we had when those medium efficiency non-condensing chimney models up north couldn't get the humidity out fast enough, and the chimneys simply sealed themselves with ice ... not funny.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

When we had the 3-day power outage last winter I was really glad we had the old-fashioned gas water heater that didn't require any electricity to run.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

OT: ^ Good point ... reminded me, years ago the father in law dragged his old space heater down from the cottage, had it connected to his unused chimney ready to go. That's the reason I kept the old chimney as long as I could, I could hook up a wood stove in the basement, just temporary for just in case. Have never had a power failure where we are ... guess we'd just have to go huddle in the jeep.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Yup, another good point for a regular gas water heater. One might also consider, for those prone to power outages in very cold weather, is to get a single plug connection (where allowed) put in for a new furnace. This way you can get a fairly cheap inverter generator to power the furnace (among other things) in emergencies.


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

Direct energy told me I had to have the chimney updated, too, for my new water heater, even though the old water heater vented through the chimney. I called someone else, and they said the chimney was fine. Installed the water heater more cheaply, too.

You might want to consider a second opinion.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

AMABILE said:


> I just had a new boiler installed by direct energy
> which doesn't have to go through the chimney
> but a new liner ($600) for my direct energy water heater rental does
> when installing the liner, i was advised that my chimney was damaged
> ...


1- Condenm chimney
2- Exhaust water heater on the side of house (or go electric).
3- Thats it.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Mortgage u/w said:


> 1- Condenm chimney
> 2- Exhaust water heater on the side of house (or go electric).


I've never understood the interest with electric water heaters. They must cost a fortune to run. Maybe if you don't have a gas line to your house, but if you do, a gas fired heater will be substantially cheaper over the long run for operational costs. Water heating is the primary draw of energy in most houses.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

nobleea said:


> I've never understood the interest with electric water heaters. They must cost a fortune to run. Maybe if you don't have a gas line to your house, but if you do, a gas fired heater will be substantially cheaper over the long run for operational costs. Water heating is the primary draw of energy in most houses.


It's not as much as you're guessing it is and the furnace is normally the biggest cost in colder areas. Also, since you have no exhaust needs with electric you can stuff the tank somewhere out of the way.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

nobleea said:


> I've never understood the interest with electric water heaters. They must cost a fortune to run. Maybe if you don't have a gas line to your house, but if you do, a gas fired heater will be substantially cheaper over the long run for operational costs. Water heating is the primary draw of energy in most houses.


Maybe in Ontario, but in Manitoba we contemplated cutting off the gas supply and getting an electric furnace and electric hot water heater as electricity there is very inexpensive.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Addy said:


> Maybe in Ontario, but in Manitoba we contemplated cutting off the gas supply and getting an electric furnace and electric hot water heater as electricity there is very inexpensive.


Gas is still the cheaper route in Manitoba. MB Hydro has price comparison charts showing the difference for hot water heaters, likely have them for furnaces as well but I've never looked for those.


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## AMABILE (Apr 3, 2009)

power vented water heater will cost $200 to be vented
add $10 per month more for the rental
will be noisy and subject to power failures
i'm thinking to just do nothing til the spring
but ''m leaning toward sticking with my gas
water heater rental and fixing the top layers
of the water damaged bricks
i've got the estimate down to $600
will try for a better price in the spring


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