# Who is checking Toronto Hydro??



## Esco (Aug 8, 2016)

So I just moved into my new condo. I moved in slowly over the course of 1 month.
I only had 3 lightbulbs on and the refrigerator running (see pics).
My bill for that month was $80.65. This sounds suspiciously high to me.

So my question is, how do we know hydro companies arent "accidently" overcharging us??
They could put whatever they want in that bill, and how would you know the difference??
Is there a government agency who checks on them to make sure there's no funny business going on??

As you can see the fridge isnt very big


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

You need to get the meter readings and calculate what you owe.


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## Esco (Aug 8, 2016)

kcowan said:


> You need to get the meter readings and calculate what you owe


And where do I find the meter?? Is it usually inside or outside the building??

I guess I'll have to ask property mgmt


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## 319905 (Mar 7, 2016)

Here's a wild and crazy thought ... you have electric (baseboard) heating.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

A. Read your frickin' bills. A substantial part of your bill is a fixed delivery charge regardless of usage. See this site for a sample bill: http://www.torontohydro.com/sites/e...lFiles/January 2018/Static bills/TOU 2018.jpg

B. If you are paying them without seeing a bill, contact Toronto Hydro to find out why. I think they will send them electronically if you want.

C. Ask your property mgmt. how you can verify meter readings.

D. If you have just moved in, you want to make sure that you are only being billed for your period of ownership; unless your lawyer made an adjustment in the final settlement because Hydro couldn't split a billing period.


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## Esco (Aug 8, 2016)

rikk2 said:


> Here's a wild and crazy thought ... you have electric (baseboard) heating


Heating and air-conditioning is covered by the building, not the condo owner


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## Esco (Aug 8, 2016)

OhGreatGuru said:


> A. Read your frickin' bills. A substantial part of your bill is a fixed delivery charge regardless of usage. See this site for a sample bill: http://www.torontohydro.com/sites/e...lFiles/January 2018/Static bills/TOU 2018.jpg


So if I were to go on a long vacation of say 3 months, and I unplugged all appliances and turned off all light fixtures, I would still get billed for a $52.44 fixed delivery charge per month??

That is total f_cking bullshit!!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Check your last billing and read it. We all pay huge fixed portions in our utility bills. To cover everything from transmission, distribution and municipal franchise fees, to who knows what. Those of us on natural gas also pay carbon taxes.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Esco said:


> So if I were to go on a long vacation of say 3 months, and I unplugged all appliances and turned off all light fixtures, I would still get billed for a $52.44 fixed delivery charge per month??
> 
> That is total f_cking bullshit!!


I'm guessing you are a first-time home owner? Utilities changed their billing practices some time ago. The infrastructure has to be paid for, whether you are home or not. To further complicate things, it wouldn't necessarily be $52.44. If you read the fine print definition for "Delivery" it says that part of this is fixed, and part is variable depending on consumption.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

You can't win ( or is it spelled Wynne ? ). Even during a power failure that occurred in the wee morning hours and lasted until 7pm, Hydro One "estimated" my TOU billing.


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## Esco (Aug 8, 2016)

OhGreatGuru said:


> I'm guessing you are a first-time home owner?


This is my 2nd condo. The condo I owned before me had hydro included in maintenance fees.
That was wonderful, I could burn whatever juice I wanted



Userkare said:


> You can't win ( or is it spelled Wynne ? )


I'm fighting back by turning all my lights off during the day and watching less TV


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

There was a time Ontario had the cheapest hydro in the world. Then the government nationalized it. Now we have the most expensive in north America. The money wasted by Ontario Hydro is unbelievable, you could feed India on champaigne and caviar with the money they have blown. Billions mean nothing to them. What the hell, just raise the rates and the suckers will pay for anything.


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## 319905 (Mar 7, 2016)

Esco said:


> This is my 2nd condo. The condo I owned before me had hydro included in maintenance fees.
> That was wonderful, I could burn whatever juice I wanted
> 
> 
> I'm fighting back by turning all my lights off during the day and watching less TV


Fwiw, Toronto's customer charge looks to be $32.63, and then there's the misc nickel and diming e.g. smart meter $0.56, and other misc charges based on usage ... http://www.torontohydro.com/sites/electricsystem/residential/rates/pages/resirates.aspx ... click on "delivery". If you're in for $32.63 plus, might as well watch a bit more TV ... just saying.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Esco said:


> This is my 2nd condo. The condo I owned before me had hydro included in maintenance fees.
> That was wonderful, I could burn whatever juice I wanted ...


I doubt it ... or are you saying the condo board if there was a huge deficient due to hydro use would hold bake sales or do something other than raise the condo fees to cover it?

Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> There was a time Ontario had the cheapest hydro in the world. Then the government nationalized it. Now we have the most expensive in north America ....


Perhaps you mean unionize?

Last I checked - the feds have nothing to do with what Ontario decides to do about/with hydro. 
You do refer to "Ontario Hydro", right?


Cheers


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> There was a time Ontario had the cheapest hydro in the world. Then the government nationalized it. Now we have the most expensive in north America. The money wasted by Ontario Hydro is unbelievable, you could feed India on champaigne and caviar with the money they have blown. Billions mean nothing to them. What the hell, just raise the rates and the suckers will pay for anything.


Check out page 11 in this document and you will see that you are wrong. 
http://www.hydroquebec.com/data/documents-donnees/pdf/comparison-electricity-prices.pdf


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I don't think those charts include fixed charges, only the variable and time of day components. Does ON not have a significant fixed (FU) charge to pay for all those screwed up Liberal energy fiascos with NG plants, etc.?


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> I don't think those charts include fixed charges, only the variable and time of day components. Does ON not have a significant fixed (FU) charge to pay for all those screwed up Liberal energy fiascos with NG plants, etc.?


If you're referring to my post, their "method" section says this (and so would include all the fixed charges as well):

The results presented here show the total bill for various
consumption levels. If the bill is calculated according to
an unbundled rate, it includes all components, including
supply, transmission and distribution.

Mind you, Toronto's rate is still way up there for Canada, surpassed only by Charlottetown, PEI. I'm not saying it's cheap, just that it's not the most expensive in North America. Inaccuracies bug me.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I missed that explanation. Still seems out of whack though at 11 cents for Vancouver. Seems low when all fixed charges are included.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Spudd said:


> Check out page 11 in this document and you will see that you are wrong.
> http://www.hydroquebec.com/data/documents-donnees/pdf/comparison-electricity-prices.pdf


Numbers seem close. Toronto is shown as 23 cents per kwh/mo. I have a bill from just east of GTA for that period. Cost was 19 cents per kwh/mo. It is comprised of 11 cents for the electricity and 8 cents for delivery, taxes, and an 8% vote-for-me-again rebate. Consumption was 450 kwh for the month and the total bill was $85.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

The Quebec Hydro surveys are normalized for an "average customer" with 1000kWh consumption per month, and are "all-in" costs. That's the only way they can make viable comparisons.
Quebec has the lowest hydro rates in the country; Manitoba has 2nd-lowest now due to James Bay Hydro projects. I think BC used to be second lowest for a long time, but seems to have been overtaken by Manitoba lately - probably due to taxes or infrastructure cost creep. 

It is not news that some parts of the country pay twice as much for electricity as those with the lowest hydro rates.


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## Esco (Aug 8, 2016)

Eclectic12 said:


> I doubt it ... or are you saying the condo board if there was a huge deficient due to hydro use would hold bake sales or do something other than raise the condo fees to cover it?
> 
> Cheers


You can doubt whatever you want, I left all the lights on, my computer on, the HVAC on 24/7.....etc...etc.

We also got _"free"_ cable because Rogers signed an exclusive deal to hook up the entire building


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

I can see that there is not as much incentive for individuals to save electricity if they are not directly billed. But with a good part of the bills now being fixed costs the money you save is not proportional to the effort. And there is a possibility a condo corp would get a reduction in rates for single billing - just think of the administration costs they save with single billing.

In Ottawa a few years ago they found people were being too good at conserving water - they had to raise rates to cover their costs even though consumption had gone down.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Ontario has invested a lot of money into green energy. Wind turbines, solar farms area all over southwestern Ontario.

Now that we have a steady supply of cheap energy, we can use it to entice business to the Province. The highly energy intensive auto industry is spending big dollars in capital expansion.

Toyota is spending $1.5 billion and they wouldn't be doing that in an area of prohibitive energy costs.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

OhGreatGuru said:


> The Quebec Hydro surveys are normalized for an "average customer" with 1000kWh consumption per month, and are "all-in" costs. That's the only way they can make viable comparisons.
> Quebec has the lowest hydro rates in the country; Manitoba has 2nd-lowest now due to James Bay Hydro projects. I think BC used to be second lowest for a long time, but seems to have been overtaken by Manitoba lately - probably due to taxes or infrastructure cost creep.
> 
> It is not news that some parts of the country pay twice as much for electricity as those with the lowest hydro rates.


One thing about living in Vancouver is we don't need air conditioning in the summer and our winters are mild so don't use much for heating.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Ontario has invested a lot of money into green energy. Wind turbines, solar farms area all over southwestern Ontario.
> 
> Now that we have a steady supply of cheap energy, we can use it to entice business to the Province. The highly energy intensive auto industry is spending big dollars in capital expansion.
> 
> Toyota is spending $1.5 billion and they wouldn't be doing that in an area of prohibitive energy costs.


But we don't have a steady supply of cheap electricity.
Wind and solar aren't "steady", wind is too irregular, and solar is worse in the winter, when electricity demand is highest.
Secondly our electricity isn't cheap.

Toyota is spending that money because they got a quarter billion in corporate welfare, and that's just to start.


If solar panels were really that great of an ROI, they'd be in widespread use.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

sags said:


> Ontario has invested a lot of money into green energy. Wind turbines, solar farms area all over southwestern Ontario.
> 
> Now that we have a steady supply of cheap energy,


Sorry. Renewable wind and solar energy is some of the most expensive energy around mostly due to unpredictable availability. A lot of spare capacity and/or storage capability is required. It is hard to make it economic without subsidy.


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## Esco (Aug 8, 2016)

This should come as a surprise to noone: http://torontosun.com/news/provincial/marin-heads-should-roll-at-hydro-one



> *Heads should roll at Hydro One*
> 
> Hydro is top of mind during this provincial election, and for good reason.
> 
> ...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The evidence doesn't support a energy problem in Ontario. Business is booming and expanding.

Sorry to Doug Ford but hydro is a non issue for most people in Ontario.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

sags said:


> Sorry to Doug Ford but hydro is a non issue for most people in Ontario.


According to Ipsos poll for Global News, energy ranks 4th most important issue behind healthcare, economy/jobs, and taxes. https://globalnews.ca/news/4199176/ontario-election-issues-liberals-ipsos-poll/

Please show any any poll where energy is not even mentioned.


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## Esco (Aug 8, 2016)

sags said:


> The evidence doesn't support a energy problem in Ontario. Business is booming and expanding.
> 
> Sorry to Doug Ford but hydro is a non issue for most people in Ontario


Sorry, but you are clueless


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