# Ontario Hotwater Tank Rental with Reliance Energy



## newfoundlander61

My home is heated with infloor radiant heat via a 55 gallon hot water tank which costs $89.00 every 3 months to rent. My question is would doing a buyout of the tank which is over 10 years old make sense and just get a new one installed when required. Not sure what the cost of a new one plus labour/taxes etc would be. I have the money to do this but was looking for opinions on which makes more sense long term financially. Reading online the cost of what people have paid to have this installed seems to vary greatly, but renting seems strange to me. The tank rental was in place when we bought the house so do I have the option of just calling Reliance and buying the tank from them and thats the end of renting. Then I get to deal with a local company in my town and save the rental charge. What is the average lifespan of a new hotwater tank?


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## Just a Guy

At 10 years, a hot water tank is pretty close to end of life. You can buy a new one starting at under $400, and installation is probably $2-300. Basically, from a numbers point of view, you're being screwed.

Funny thing, eastern canada, the majority of people rent but are starting to buy their own...in western canada, the majority of people own, but are starting now to rent.


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## liquidfinance

If you do call reliance they screw you to the point that you decide it's easier to keep renting. 

Reluctantly I probably will buy but the pay back will sadly be something like 2 years. I'm not sure how reliance get away with this theft.


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## canadian_investor

Reliance in souther ontario does screw you on the hot water tank rental. however keep in mind that it includes 24x7 service maintenance and support.
i do rent my water heater from reliance and there have been half a dozen times when the water heater stopped working middle of the night usually in deep winter.
they come immeidately and fix it for no additional charges.
so it is not entirely a rip off. 24x7 service and maintenance has a price.
the rip off is there when the water heater is paid off but they still charge a rental to provide the service.
basically you cannot jusst pay for the service. you have to pay for the rental.
you cannot have a paid off heater and just buy the service from them.


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## Ihatetaxes

Call Reliance and tell them you are looking at buying one because the rental rate is ridiculous for a 10 year old unit (mine is 13). They will likely offer you a credit equal to a quarterly payment. I have done this once a year for the past few years and at least it drops the rental cost a little.

I did require a service call for mine a few months ago (that was zero cost to me) and the tech did mention that older tanks were built to a far higher quality than anything you can find today. 

I still do shut off the water to our house whenever we go away on vacation since coming home to a flood from a plumbing leak or failed water heater tank wouldn't be fun.


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## canadian_investor

Ihatetaxes said:


> Call Reliance and tell them you are looking at buying one because the rental rate is ridiculous for a 10 year old unit (mine is 13). They will likely offer you a credit equal to a quarterly payment. I have done this once a year for the past few years and at least it drops the rental cost a little.


i have done that already.
it reduces the rental cost but does not eliminate it entirely.
what i'd like is to buyout the water heater completely and jusst pay for service.
doesn't seem possible with Reliance. not sure about others like Enbridge.
Reliance insists on charging a rental fee over and above the service fee, even with a paid off water heater.
btw Reliance used to be Ozz Home. We were with Ozz and then Reliance bought them out and we got "grandfathered" in.



> I still do shut off the water to our house whenever we go away on vacation


we do that always too
highly recommended.


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## wendi1

I bought out my elderly gas HW heater (in Ontario), and replaced it about 8 years later. No service calls in that time period, and no regrets. They are pretty simple things, really - you mostly have to worry about rusting through the steel (and there's a bit of warning when that happens).

You're right - a HW heater costs less than a fridge, but you don't rent a fridge...

Watch out for those tankless water heaters, though - IMHO, a tank is the way to go with the winters we get.


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## carverman

Just a Guy said:


> At 10 years, a hot water tank is pretty close to end of life. You can buy a new one starting at under $400, and installation is probably $2-300. Basically, from a numbers point of view, you're being screwed.


You can get more than 10 years from a hot water tank. It depends on the type of water you are heating (how much mineral content)
in the water, which causes the heater element to get calcium scale. It also depends on whether it's a gas or electric hot water heater too. 

Back in 2000, Enbridge here in Ottawa, was getting out of the hot water tank rental business and advertised that home owners that were renting tanks from them, could remove the tanks (at homeowners expense of course) and call them for pickup of the rental tank, no extra charges and when you called them to do that, they also cancelled the monthly rental contract.

I bought a GE smart tank from H-D and installed it myself. I think the cost was a bit over $469 at the time and it is still fine now as it has passed 14 years of service.


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## carverman

wendi1 said:


> I bought out my elderly gas HW heater (in Ontario), and replaced it about 8 years later. No service calls in that time period, and no regrets. They are pretty simple things, really - you mostly have to worry about rusting through the steel (and there's a bit of warning when that happens).


The cheap tanks may rust out through the steel and spring a leak, but some like mine are glass lined inside..still going strong after 14 years of service. 
I saved a bundle on rental..14 years x $240 a year = $3360 on rental charges alone and that doesn't include the 13% hst either. 

With the savings, I can go and get another tank and even if it only lasts 10 years, its still considerable savings over rental. Of course I'm not including the cost of installation of the new tank, but all it takes is a propane torch and some fittings for the hot/cold connections to the tank from the existing water lines. 



> Watch out for those tankless water heaters, though - IMHO, a tank is the way to go with the winters we get.


The tankless water heaters are around $1000+ installation costs. They are also water flow rate dependent. 

If the inlet water pipes are too small (less than 3/4 inch copper) they also have to replace the lines to the water meter in some cases.
In my area of Ottawa, the water pressure is very low, and if I turn on two taps at the same time, or the washing
machine is on, and I turn on the kitchen tap, the water pressure and water volume drops dramatically.

The water is very cold in the winter and it takes a while for the cold water to get through the pipes any way for
the water heater to heat up the water to the preset temperature you want, so there is wasted water as well.

The hot water is not instantaneous on these..maybe in temperate climates like the southern US, but
here, with the cold winters we got such as last year, better to have that hot water sitting in the tank ready to be used.


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## KaeJS

I am with Reliance and pay $14/month for an Electric 40 Gallon.

In my opinion, $14/month is worth it in case anything goes wrong. Yes, I know that over 10 years, the cost is about $1700. But I really don't think I'll even be in this house in 10 years from now. In my case, I think it makes sense. For other people, it may not.

But $14/month is also a lot different than $89/3 months.

That $14/month is buying me security and stress reduction.


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## uptoolate

Yes it's an interesting discussion. I have almost replaced mine twice simply because it is so old. On the other hand, although it's almost 30 years old it still managed to keep up with a family of 6 with 4 teenagers without a problem. I spoke to the furnace guys when they were in and the people at Home Depot and they actually said since it is direct vent and therefore maintenance could be more costly, that it is probably just better to keep on renting. I've had it looked at maybe 3 times in 20+ years so not a huge cost outlay if I were paying. They even came in and moved it a few feet for me when I redid the laundry room - no charge. So far I haven't had enough in the way of motivation to ditch Reliance.


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## carverman

KaeJS said:


> That $14/month is buying me security and stress reduction.


I think there is a cost involved as well for getting out of the hot water rental contract.
It varies with each rental company, so it's not just the cost of the new HWT and installation, there may 
also be a cancellation penalty to pay out, as well as the service cost of removing the old rental tank by
the HWT rental company.


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## Synergy

The older the tank is the cheaper the buyout option will be. Ask your company for a chart outlining the buyout options and then you'll be able to determine when will be the best time to cut the cord. Personally I'd do the buyout option and never rent again. In some cases you can end up paying 2-3x's the value of the equipment.


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## carverman

Synergy said:


> The older the tank is the cheaper the buyout option will be. Ask your company for a chart outlining the buyout options and then you'll be able to determine when will be the best time to cut the cord. Personally I'd do the buyout option and never rent again. In some cases you can end up paying 2-3x's the value of the equipment.


Yes, I suppose the buyout is the way to go but be prepared to pay full cost of a new tank if the tank is 5 years old or less.
http://www.thestar.com/business/per...ct_energy_delays_on_tank_buyout_requests.html


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## Ponderling

I am with Enbridge. I bought my house in 2003, and inquired about the rental b vent natural draft tank water heater that came with the home purchase. It was 12 years old at that point.
The buy out price was $120. No thanks, I said. They offered to charge me $80 to remove it. 

I asked what was the charge for me to take it to their depot. Oh, that was free!.

So I hit Home Depot a few days before the furnace was being updated, and I plumbed the new tank in the day before the furnace was swapped.
I humped the now empty tank up the stairs in the new tank box (having handles are important here!) 

I drain maybe 30L from the bottom of the tank every spring to try to let the gunkies out that may settle there out before they bake into an insulating lining. I have an upgraded outer jacket wrap, so the heater cycles less.

We use low flow fittings, and so far our family of four does fine on a 40 US gallon tank. When the tank was 6 years old I turned off the supply, drained down the hot lines, and pulled the sacrificial anode to inspect it. There was zero sign of corrosion on it, so my water supply must not be very reactive. So for now I am just staining tight seeing how long it will be until I need to replace it. 

If I heated my house with it, I would consider a service plan. There may be an alternative to the gas utility service plan if you are in any sort of an urban area. the plan may get more affordable if you pre own a few parts that are prone to fail, so the service call is just a matter of swapping parts, and not 'a check get the parts, come back and install the parts call charge'.


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## Synergy

carverman said:


> Yes, I suppose the buyout is the way to go but be prepared to pay full cost of a new tank if the tank is 5 years old or less.
> http://www.thestar.com/business/per...ct_energy_delays_on_tank_buyout_requests.html


Agreed, timing is often important here. But, I believe the OP is dealing with a 10+ yr old tank and a pretty hefty monthly rate. I heat my 1100sq ft condo with a gas hot water tank (blower system) and have a gas fireplace as a backup heat source. In general, hot water tanks are pretty reliable and maintenance free - that's why companies luv to rent them - $$$.


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## carverman

Synergy said:


> . *In general, hot water tanks are pretty reliable and maintenance free - that's why companies luv to rent them - $$$*.


Yes, the rental tanks are a big money maker for them..costs them nothing to maintain them.

The gas valves on the tanks are very reliable. About the only thing that could go wrong is the temp sensor on the thermostat inside the tank that regulates the gas valve. 
Mine has no electricity connection, so unlike the ventor motor type, it doesn't require an ac connection..but my 20 year old gas furnace still has a chimney vent, so the HWT shares the furnace vent.

The new tanks are piezo push button ignition, rather than lighting a pilot as in my 14 year old tank, but I've had no problems with mine so far, so if it decides to spring a leak somewhere in the next 5 years or so, it won't owe me anything.


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## Synergy

carverman said:


> The gas valves on the tanks are very reliable. About the only thing that could go wrong is the temp sensor on the thermostat inside the tank that regulates the gas valve.


What about those anti-scald valves, I here they can be fairly expensive. I'm not sure if they're prone to failure or not. Great invention, a lot of people don't realize the consequences of lowering the tanks thermostat too low - Legionnaires.


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## newfoundlander61

Called Reliance with buyout was $40 bucks, done with renting.


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## carverman

Synergy said:


> What about those anti-scald valves, I here they can be fairly expensive. I'm not sure if they're prone to failure or not. Great invention, a lot of people don't realize the consequences of lowering the tanks thermostat too low - Legionnaires.


I guess you are referring to an special mixing valve that is on the hot water outlet valve of your hwt and is an option.

All hot water tanks have to come equipped with a pressure release valve, in case the thermostat fails and the tank burner/element stays on all the time without cycling. In that case, you could have a nice pressurized 'rocket' that will easily blow a hole through your upper floor! (This was proven on MYTH BUSTERS show a few years ago, where they demonstrated what can happen if the pressure relieve valve is removed and the hole sealed.)

Most modern tanks come with thermostats that cannot be set much above 160F. This is for safety of the user and to prevent scalding liability lawsuits
back to the manufacturer of the tank. Most, and at least mine won't heat the water above 140F (60C) and I don't set it at maximum either.

However, the thermostat is located on the bottom of the tank where the COLD WATER enters and not at the upper part of the tank where the heated hot water sits. So there CAN be temperature variations as much as 30F (120F->160F
http://www.scaldprevention.org/Inability of Water Heater Tstat Control.htm



> GE gas water heaters are equipped with the SmartShield Sensor System that automatically shuts the gas unit down thanks to the Flammable Vapor Resistant design, if flammable vapors are detected





> Thermostat is factory set on 120 F, *but you can change the temperature of the hot water up to 160 F*. The temperature of the outgoing hot water is regulated by setting the temperature dial on the front of the thermostat.


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## Rusty O'Toole

I hate Reliance like poison. They tried to swindle me and hassled me for 14 months over a non existent bill before they gave up.

On a tank that old tell them you are replacing it and want to end the contract. They will ask if you can dispose of it, tell them you can, and keep the tank. If they want it back tell them you will leave it at the curb for them and they can pick it up at 8 am. If it is not there when they come for it, that is not your fault. Someone must have grabbed it.


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## carverman

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I hate Reliance like poison. They tried to swindle me and hassled me for 14 months over a non existent bill before they gave up.
> 
> On a tank that old tell them you are replacing it and want to end the contract. They will ask if you can dispose of it, tell them you can, and keep the tank. If they want it back tell them you will leave it at the curb for them and they can pick it up at 8 am. If it is not there when they come for it, that is not your fault. Someone must have grabbed it.


LOL! It's a money maker for them, so why wouldn't they try to hassle you? It's in their best interest to keep you going with their rental contract. Lets say they have 500 thousand customers in Ontario..what is the rental now $16? (and another $2 for Harper and Wynne digging into your pocket for the privilege of having hot water) ...
that is around $8 million landing in their pockets every month and Harper and Wynne get a cut on that. 

Even if they have to spend at least 10% of that to repair or replace the odd tank each month ( 10% of 8 million coming in fromthe rentals per month =$800K), lets say (96 million per year in total..that still leaves them a PURE PROFIT ....88 million dollars. For that, even you could even consider getting into the hwt rental business yourself! :biggrin:

I was fortunate, Enbridge used to rent hwt until 2000 and offered a deal where there was no penalty and if you moved their tank to the front of your garage for their guys to pickup, they would cancel the contract. I forget what the rental was at the time but lets say it was $12 back then..($144 for the year)..never had any problems with their 10+ year old tank..so they made pure profit off me, because I inherited the hwt rental contract when I bought my place in '96 the tank was over 8 years old.

I went to H-D, bought a GE smart tank with the glass lined tank (9 year prorated warranty..(although I never tried to find out how good their response on warranty would be..I heard they got bought out by some other outfit in the US and
the warranty is not that good anymore)..like a lot of things today..you buy the item, the manufacturer tells you."oh sure we have a 1 year warranty on this item..BUT..you have to send it back to us for repair!"

With the sky rocketing cost of shipping anything by CP these days..you just shake your head, toss it into recycle and buy another one. 

Installed the GE tank myself. No big deal. Turn off the gas valve at the tank, the pilot uses up the gas in the line after the gas valve. undo the gas union connection on the gas pipe and then unscrew it from old gas valve. If the new tank has the same gas valve inlet as the old tank, the existing connection can be used on the new..just use some PTFE pipe thread compound on the threads before reattaching the thread ends of the gas pipe into the heater.

As far as the hot/cold water pipes at the top, both should have shut off valves and all you need to do is cut the copper pipes and remove the old tank, slide the new tank into the same spot.

You will need the proper sized galvanized threaded stubs to screw into the water inlet/outlet and a brass cap/reducer to solder the copper lines to the brass reducers, so a propane torch and solder/paste flux is necessary. it helps if you know how to solder properly to ensure a first time leak free connection..that's it. 
Dish soap solution on the disturbed gas pipe threads after turning the gas back on..if no bubbles present on the threads..you are ready to light it.

Called Enbridge to do their safety inspection and affix their safety inspection sticker, because I'm not a licensed gas fitter. 

At almost $18 a month (rental taxes included), 14years , I have denied the rental companies their pure profit (so far)
of $2688. I guess I can afford to buy another tank and have it installed with those savings.:biggrin:


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## yyz

I'm not defending rentals vs owning but when you run your numbers above don't forget that the tank does have to be bought by Reliance before they can rent it to you.Also they cover the installation for free don't they?
It's not PURE PROFIT.

The average person is not going to be able to install their own tank.


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## nathan79

The concept of renting a hot water tank was completely alien to me before I read about it on this forum. No one in western Canada does that, as far as I know. 

A water tank is pretty much the most reliable appliance in your house. Do people rent their washing machine, dishwasher, of refrigerator? Probably not, because those things all break down more often than a water tank and would never be profitable for the rental company.

It seems like one of those institutions that no one really questions the logic of... which is great for the rental companies.

Reminds me... when I was a kid my parents used to rent their telephone from BC Tel. I think it was $2 a month or something, but it adds up over time.


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## Cal

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I hate Reliance like poison.


You are not alone on that one.....


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## Rusty O'Toole

I rented a water tank from Reliance for a rental property. They added to the bill, $225 that they could not explain. Installation is free and repairs are free so what was it for? They said for repairs to other plumbing in the house. I knew perfectly well no such repairs were made, there is only one way to get into the basement and that is through the house, and the tenant saw no one on the day the so called repairs were made.

I told them it was a mistake and they insisted it was not. So I asked to see the work order, or hear the phone call, in which I authorized the repair. There wasn't any because i never authorized any repairs, and no repairs were done.

This went on every month for 8 or 10 months, taking about 45 minutes of my time on the phone each month, then they sent it to collection. The collection agency threatened to sue, and I cheered them on. I wanted to see what evidence they had that I ordered any repairs, or that repairs were done (they weren't).

During this time the bill kept getting bigger and bigger every month, then when I told the collection agency to put up or shut up it started getting smaller and smaller. Finally they offered to settle for $26. The kid from the collection agency said "Why don't you just pay it, it's only $26." I said "why don't you pay it?" He said "I don't owe that money". I said "neither do I" and that is the last I heard about it.

Do you wonder that I don't want to do business with them?


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## Rusty O'Toole

I believe it was the crook local plumbing company they sub contracted the installation to, Stevenson Pumps and Plumbing, that tacked on the extra charge. They probably get away with it 9 times out of 10, in fact they probably got the money from Reliance and never gave it back.


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## carverman

yyz said:


> I'm not defending rentals vs owning but when you run your numbers above don't forget that the tank does have to be bought by Reliance before they can rent it to you.Also they cover the installation for free don't they?
> It's not PURE PROFIT.


You have a point. Depending on the type of tank, and I believe the new ones are the power vented model they install.
If the H-D Rheem 50 US gal power vent retails for $858, they can get it much cheaper directly from the manufacturer, for about half of the retaiil at least. Installation costs would vary depending on whether it's a "slip in"..or first time, installation where the hole has to be drilled in the basement wall for the 2 inch vent abs pipe and a 120 volt hookup
for the power venter motor. 

More than likely they have their own installers or contracted ones, so lets say that the new tank and installation costs them $1000. If they rent it out at $20 a month x10 years..($240 x 10 - $2400 minus $1000 initial cost)
it is still a good profit for them of $1400 over 10 years.

Now if they (Reliance) assumed the rental of a conventional vented tank, that was already installed, (minus the cost of buying out the other tank rental company and assuming the rentals are trouble free), there could be still substantial profits for them in those too.



> The average person is not going to be able to install their own tank.


True. I was just explaining that if you feel confident enough and have the installation inspected, it can be done if you decide to DIY, but usually with a H-D tank purchase, you would contract a H-D qualified installer.
I will be doing that when my 14 year old tank finally fails.


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## carverman

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I rented a water tank from Reliance for a rental property. They added to the bill, $225 that they could not explain. Installation is free and repairs are free so what was it for? They said *for repairs to other plumbing in the house.* I knew perfectly well no such repairs were made, there is only one way to get into the basement and that is through the house, and the tenant saw no one on the day the so called repairs were made.


One would wonder if the repairs "to the other plumbing in the house"..a very vague statement, was added by the installer to get some extra money for your installation as he probably thought he wasn't being paid enough at the basic installation price?

Besides adding the threaded stubs and a couple of copper sleeves to merge the new copper pipes to the tank from the existing plumbing..which should be included in the "free installation" what other repairs are necessary in the installation?

Now if he decided to upgrade the existing plumbing and run a new length of 3/4 inch copper pipe into the hwt, instead of the old existing 1/2 inch copper pipes, and that length of pipe had to be connected to the water meter distribution pipe inside the house, and maybe another 3/4 inch new copper pipe on the hot water run in the basement, I could see the extra charge for that.


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## Rusty O'Toole

It was totally a ripoff by the installation company. The Reliance people could not tell me what the money was for, and could not produce any kind of documentation. When I asked what it was for they said "repairs" but I am not responsible for repairs to a rented tank. Then they said "installation" but installation is free. Then they said they must have been necessary to fix my plumbing but the extra bill was for several days after the installation. And, I have an affidavit from the tenant that no one did any repairs or came to the house that day. In that house the only access to the basement is through the house (no outside basement entrance).

There was no extra work done. The new tank was connected to the old plumbing just like the old tank. They did not even remove the old tank, they left it in the basement.

My biggest complaint is that Reliance did NOTHING but keep billing me every month for a bogus charge even after they knew it was bogus, and finally sent it to collection. It was the collection company that dropped the matter. And they did not drop it when they knew they did not have a leg to stand on, they dropped it when they gave up on trying to put the squeeze on me. Both Reliance and their collection agency did everything they could to collect a bill they knew was phony.


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## carverman

Rusty O'Toole said:


> It was totally a ripoff by the installation company. The Reliance people could not tell me what the money was for, and could not produce any kind of documentation.
> There was no extra work done. The new tank was connected to the old plumbing just like the old tank. They did not even remove the old tank, they left it in the basement.


But how does Reliance know what the installer is doing at your place? Maybe it was a straight installation (new tank copper pipes connected to old pipes) but maybe also he had to add a shutoff valve (or two) on copper lines on the tank as a water bypass so that the cold water can still be run in the house while the tank is being exchanged?

My tank has shutoff valves on both the hot and cold lines directly above the tank. That way if the tank springs a leak or has to be replaced, both shutoff valves allow cold water to still run in the house to flush toilets etc, and even without hot water the cold water is still available with the tank bypass hot and cold shutoff valves.
This way if it takes 2 or 3 days for the new tank to be delivered and installed..I still have cold water throughout the house. 



> My biggest complaint is that Reliance did NOTHING but keep billing me every month for a bogus charge even after they knew it was bogus, and finally sent it to collection. It was the collection company that dropped the matter. And they did not drop it when they knew they did not have a leg to stand on, they dropped it when they gave up on trying to put the squeeze on me. Both Reliance and their collection agency did everything they could to collect a bill they knew was phony.


Maybe the installer got your place confused with some other tank he replaced that week? He, or someone in his shop probably wrote up a bill later on to Reliance from memory, confusing your address with someone else's address? I could see that happening if the
installers do not write up a work order on the tank replacement immediately after, and have you sign the work order. 

I would also fight any charge that I believe was not authorized by me. If any other changes to the hot/cold pipes had to
be done that were not part of the free installation, then I would want to see those changes the same day and sign the work order for the extra and billable work they did.


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## Rusty O'Toole

They know what is going on because the installer tells them and I tell them. If they have no authorization by me, they have no right to do work on my property and they have no right to charge me.

If they have no proof the work was done, they have no right to charge me.

If work was done, but it was for repair of a rented water heater, or covered under installation, they have no right to charge me.

I asked them repeatedly for some evidence that I authorized work to be done, and/or that work was done. They could not produce such evidence because no work was authorized, and no work was done. I was ready to prove this at any time.

This did not stop them from dunning me every month for more than a year, or from turning the account over to a collection agency, in spite of the fact that no work was authorized, no work was done, and they knew it.

Hope this is clear.


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## Rusty O'Toole

I don't believe the installer was mixed up, or that it was an honest mistake. If it was they would have corrected it.

If I genuinely owed the money, and they could prove it, they would have taken me to court or showed me the proof. If they were honest, and found they made a mistake, they would have apologized.

They did neither of these things. They billed me repeatedly and threatened me even though they knew the bill was a total ripoff.

And now you know what you can expect if you do business with them.


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## nobleea

KaeJS said:


> I am with Reliance and pay $14/month for an Electric 40 Gallon.
> 
> In my opinion, $14/month is worth it in case anything goes wrong. Yes, I know that over 10 years, the cost is about $1700. But I really don't think I'll even be in this house in 10 years from now. In my case, I think it makes sense. For other people, it may not.
> 
> But $14/month is also a lot different than $89/3 months.
> 
> That $14/month is buying me security and stress reduction.


Put the $14 in a savings account every month. When you need to repair or pay for maintenance, withdraw it. You'll be ahead and then you get to keep the savings at the end. If you're not going to be in the house for 10 years, then for sure you shouldn't be renting the heater. Pay it out and leave the 10yr old heater for the next owner.

You may feel like you're buying security, but it's really security for the income/profit of your service provider.


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## carverman

nobleea said:


> Put the $14 in a savings account every month. When you need to repair or pay for maintenance, withdraw it. You'll be ahead and then you get to keep the savings at the end. If you're not going to be in the house for 10 years, then for sure you shouldn't be renting the heater. Pay it out and leave the 10yr old heater for the next owner.
> 
> You may feel like you're buying security, but it's really security for the income/profit of your service provider.


Hmmm? If KaeJS is planning on selling, and from what I recall, he mentioned he had bought the property not too long ago, maybe he is better renting than going for a buyout option..which in some cases, is not cheap.
If he is renting some portion of his house out, then his tenant expects hot water to be available at all times. 
With the rental they (Reliance)should repair it within a few hours of being notified. 

Now if he buys out the tank at possibly "a few hundred" in cancellation fees, and he wants to sell and move...he is no farther' ahead money wise...ie: not frugal. 
Some owners may not want a rental tank, but others in fact want it..it's peace of mind..
or to put it another way, no extra money out of their pocket if something goes wrong with the tank,
where it may need repair OR complete replacement.

If one is planning to stay long term in a property they own, 10 years or more, then it may make sense to just buy it outright
and deal with any repairs (or replacement) yourself.
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/rheem-40-gallon-gas-water-heater/875532

1) it didn't cost me a cent to get out of the Enbridge HWT rental;
2) I bought the same tank at H-D for $369 back in Sept 2000
3) I installed it myself (no installation charge)
4) I've been living in my house for 14 years now with the SAME TANK I bought..savings..well even at $14 monthly x 14ysr = $2353 rental charges MINUS cost of tank ($369)= $1983 saved over this time.
5) Tank has been trouble free for 14 years, if I have to replace it someday...H-D have the same 40US gal (normal venting) tank for $430 + taxes = $485. 
6)Probably, I can still do the installation myself.... as long as somebody moves the old empty tank out and the new one in its place.
The old tank can be recycled. There is a recycle company that you call and they will pick up the tank for free.

Lets say that I can't install it myself any more...with a conventional tank ..all you need is two galvanized stubs available at CTC; about 1 foot of new 1/2 copper pipe, and two copper joiners (sleeve), 
and some simple tooks...a propane torch, some solder and some paste.
The gas pipe needs a BIG "monkey wrench "..er.. adjustable pipe wrench to undo the gas union connector at the tank.


Not sure where the term monkey wrench comes from, but it's been around for many many years. I'm sure that the monkeys didn't invent it.. nor have they ever used it...:biggrin:


mon·key wrench
noun
1.
an adjustable wrench with large jaws that has its adjusting screw contained in the handle.


----------



## nobleea

carverman said:


> Hmmm? If KaeJS is planning on selling, and from what I recall, he mentioned he had bought the property not too long ago, maybe he is better renting than going for a buyout option..which in some cases, is not cheap.
> If he is renting some portion of his house out, then his tenant expects hot water to be available at all times.
> With the rental they (Reliance)should repair it within a few hours of being notified.


IIRC, the place was new or nearly new, which means the useful life of the HWT likely exceeds his planned stay there. Therefore paying for insurance that likely won't be required. Even an emergency weekend evening replacement of a 40gal HWT costs $900.


----------



## e86s54

If your tanks is more than 10 years old (thereabout), remember that the code for the PVC exhaust piping has changed and that black PVC pipe is no longer accepted. That may increase your install cost substantially.


----------



## carverman

e86s54 said:


> If your tanks is more than 10 years old (thereabout), remember that the code for the PVC exhaust piping has changed and that black PVC pipe is no longer accepted. That may increase your install cost substantially.


My tank is not a power vent, but the conventional flue vent and doesn't use any PVC. 
As long as I have my medium efficiency furnace that still uses the steel venting to the roof, any replacement HWT
will still be the same kind. 



> You may notice the sound of the fan. Ideally the water heater will be in a room away from the main living area so it doesn’t become bothersome.
> *You have to provide a standard electrical receptacle near the unit to supply power for the fan.*
> You have to make sure you have adequate “make-up” air to replace the air being blown out.
> And finally, *power-vented water heaters cost at least 50 percent more than a natural-draft water heater. *You can find power-vented water heaters wherever water heaters are sold; almost every major water heater manufacturer makes them.
> Read more: http://www.familyhandyman.com/plumb...er-vented-water-heater/view-all#ixzz3FSQjpAcN


The power vent tanks cost almost double at H-D, and cost a more to install, and have parts that may need maintenance and electricity hookups. 
If you have an existing gas vent chimney, where is the saving if you decided to go to one of these?


----------



## mcoursd2006

There are certain circumstances where it might make sense to rent, like if you're planning on selling your home, or perhaps it's a rental property where you can write off the cost, or perhaps you just don't have the money to purchase, especially if it's a relatively new unit. If your home is newly built it might cost you close to $2k to buyout. Not many people would have that kind of cash around after purchasing a new home, so $24.95/month sounds great.

I bought out the tank after about seven years at a cost of $450 at the time. This was 8 years ago. I was paying $21.95/month+GST at the time. So, so far it's saved me just over $2000. Last year, the power vent unit went bad. The option was to either replaced the tank, ABS to PVC pipes with a finished ceiling and all, or replace the venting fan. Option A was going to cost about $1500, with a bit of work by me to do the finished drywall afterwards. Option B was $350 for a unit ordered from the U.S. I went with B.

I realize that at some point I will have to go with replacing everything, but I just bought some time with the new fan. I've also taken precautions with the tank that if it does leak it's not going to ruin my basement floor. The leakage, even if it's big, would leak directly into the drain in the floor next to the tank. 

If I were renting the unit, the company likely would have replaced the whole unit, but I think I'd still have to pay for the labour and materials for the new piping.


----------



## thompsg4416

I just bought and moved into my house in Ottawa this August. I finally got around to phoning direct energy to see what it would cost to buy them out of my water heater rental.. 41 including the tax! So I did it. 

The water heater is from 2000 though which is pretty old. I asked the lady on the phone and she said they wouldn't have come to replace it for another 2 years. Which tells me that I (should) have at least 2 years left. That's 400 dollars.

The scary part though is that i'm now responsible for it. 

From what I gather 15 years is pretty much their life span -some a little longer some a little less. Hopefully I made the right decision.

What are the typical signs its time to change the tank? I've looked on a few sites but apart from the obvious like its leaking there doesn't seem to be alot of signs.


----------



## My Own Advisor

Same. I own my tank and my tank is year-2000 as well.

I hope it doesn't leak, not showing any signs of it.

I will likely replace it in another 3-5 years even if there are no issues. This way, I'm "good" for another 15 years or so.


----------



## carverman

thompsg4416 said:


> *What are the typical signs its time to change the tank*? I've looked on a few sites but apart from the obvious like its leaking there doesn't seem to be alot of signs.


I live in Ottawa and in 2000 bought my own tank, new from H-D,after Enbridge advised everyone with their tank rentals that they would allow anyone with their rental tanks
to get out of the contract free of charge and they would pick up their emptied disconnected tank at your door. 

I forget the exact price, but I bought a GE "Smart Tank" with a glass tank lining, it was around $389 at the time. I installed it myself, so there was no extra installation charge.
The tank is now 14 years old and no problems with it. It had a 9yr prorated warranty from GE, which has long expired.

It is now going into it's 15th year and no problems so far. Some may last up to 15 yrs, while others last much longer, so it's the luck of the draw with hot water tanks. Ottawa has softer water, so there is less corrosion.
There is a cathodic protection (sacrificial anode rod} that can be replaced in them to slow down deterioration, but I've never been able to loosen mine, so at this point in time, I just leave it alone. 
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Longevity/water-heater-anodes.html
*Also you need to drain the "spooge" out of the bottom periodically (once a year may be enough).* That is any
minerals that form at the bottom of the tank. Install a short garden hose fitting onto the drain valve and
open the drain valve..if the water is muddy looking, then there are some built up minerals, which need to be
drained off....if it is clear, then close the valve again. 

If it fails within the next 2-5 years, I will go to H-D buy another similar and arrange to have it installed.

*Signs of trouble..depends on the brand of tank I suppose.*
Normally the gas valves on these last forever..i*t's (usually)the thermostats that can fail,* and if that is the case, chances are, it will not sense the temperature of the water ....so you can EITHER have boiling water inside which will operate the safety valve, and allow the steam/hot water to escape....or just cold unheated water.

*Since the older tanks require a pilot light to stay on permanently, it can go out sometimes due to a draft in the basement,* that would require relighting it..yourself..easy enough to do..move the gas valve to "PILOT" , remove the cover plate and hold a long lit fireplace match into the burner cavity, light the pilot, let it burn without releasing the "pilot button"
for about 20 or 30 seconds to allow the capillary tube inside the pilot (which acts as a flame detector) to warm up and keep the gas flow going through the gas valve. Turn the temperature control dial to desired temperature and that's about it.

*The other possibility is a leak at the bottom of the tank.*.if that happens, then the tank wall has been compromised due to corrosion..usually it starts as a small leak, but eventually with more corrosion and water pressure, more water can escape and you may have a minor..or major flood in the basement. 

If you have basement floor drain close by usually it's just the cost of the metered water that you will lose.


----------



## nathan79

My mom just had her 25 year old tank replaced. It was leaking water. Prior to the leak, she'd noticed the occasional drop in water pressure.

The new tank cost about $1000 installed.

It seems like these tanks can often last quite a long time. The one in my childhood home was always old for as long as I can remember and we lived there for 14 years without replacing it. I wouldn't be surprised if it was 30 years old when we moved.


----------



## nobleea

A standard gas fired hot water tank is probably the most reliable and inexpensive appliance in homes these days. 
Even if you had to repair it in an emergency on a sunday night, you're still looking at ~$1100. Over your entire home owning life you will come out ahead by owning the HWT rather than renting, 99% of the time.

But it's the same as the fixed vs variable rate for mortgages. Some people prefer the 'security' even if it costs them more in the long run.


----------



## Echo

I looked into this a while ago because as an Albertan writing for the Toronto Star I'd always read about Ontario residents who rented a water heater (and all the subsequent problems with Reliance and Direct Energy) - http://www.boomerandecho.com/water-heater-rentals-ontario-residents-get-hosed/

Direct Energy has operations in Alberta as well as Ontario and rents water heaters to over one million customers in Ontario, yet none in Alberta. Strange, like it's just something Ontario residents got used to paying without question, while the concept never made it out west.


----------



## carverman

Echo said:


> I
> Direct Energy has operations in Alberta as well as Ontario and rents water heaters to over one million customers in Ontario, yet none in Alberta. *Strange, like it's just something Ontario residents got used to paying without question*, while the concept never made it out west.


Peace of mind maybe? As in ...pay the monthly rental and we will take care of any problems with your hot water tank?


----------



## Echo

Yeah, I get that - at least, that's how the rental companies sell it as a benefit. But there must be more to it. Imagine if most of the people in an entire province rented their home instead of owning, and that was just sort of the standard practice and everyone was brought up that way and accepted it as status quo. 

It's not an argument of renting vs. owning but more of a difference in mindset. Something has been woven into the fabric in Ontario that says, "we rent our hot water tanks here." But why there and not everywhere else? I feel like Malcolm Gladwell needs to look into this phenomenon.


----------



## My Own Advisor

So Carverman,

I should be draining my tank as part of home maintenance?

"Also you need to drain the "spooge" out of the bottom periodically (once a year may be enough). That is any
minerals that form at the bottom of the tank. Install a short garden hose fitting onto the drain valve and
open the drain valve..if the water is muddy looking, then there are some built up minerals, which need to be
drained off....if it is clear, then close the valve again."

Others? Thoughts?


----------



## nobleea

Echo said:


> Yeah, I get that - at least, that's how the rental companies sell it as a benefit. But there must be more to it. Imagine if most of the people in an entire province rented their home instead of owning, and that was just sort of the standard practice and everyone was brought up that way and accepted it as status quo.
> 
> It's not an argument of renting vs. owning but more of a difference in mindset. Something has been woven into the fabric in Ontario that says, "we rent our hot water tanks here." But why there and not everywhere else? I feel like Malcolm Gladwell needs to look into this phenomenon.


In south korea, they vehemently believe that leaving a fan on in a closed room while sleeping will lead to a hypothermic death. No amount of numbers, science or logic will convince them otherwise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death


----------



## carverman

My Own Advisor said:


> So Carverman,
> 
> I should be draining my tank as part of home maintenance?
> 
> "Also you need to drain the "spooge" out of the bottom periodically (once a year may be enough). That is any
> minerals that form at the bottom of the tank. Install a short garden hose fitting onto the drain valve and
> open the drain valve..if the water is muddy looking, then there are some built up minerals, which need to be
> drained off....if it is clear, then close the valve again."
> 
> Others? Thoughts?


Well every tank has a drain valve and eventually, some "spooge" (sediment) will eventually collect at the bottom of the tank, but the hot water comes off the top..so it is up to you.
'http://www.diynetwork.com/how-to/how-to-drain-a-water-heater/index.html


----------



## carverman

Echo said:


> Yeah, I get that - at least, that's how the rental companies sell it as a benefit. But there must be more to it. Imagine if most of the people in an entire province rented their home instead of owning, and that was just sort of the standard practice and everyone was brought up that way and accepted it as status quo.
> 
> It's not an argument of renting vs. owning but more of a difference in mindset. Something has been woven into the fabric in Ontario that says, "we rent our hot water tanks here." But why there and not everywhere else? I feel like Malcolm Gladwell needs to look into this phenomenon.


Don't know if they still rent electric water heaters in Ontario. In Toronto they used to, maybe they still do.

Electric water heaters last a long time, but sometimes the heater element or element thermostat fails. Again with heaters being 220v AC (lethal voltages), anybody with a electric hot water heater that does not understand repairs safety procedures prefer to rent.

With Gas furnaces..most people haven't got a clue on how the furnace operates or the safety switches and control board that are in the furnace, so they prefer to have a service contract..or call in a qualified repairman if there is no service agreement.

With hot water tanks...new builders often contract out the furnace installation and the tank installation separately and there is a lot of competition for those lucrative contracts with the new home owner. 

The home is sold with a working furnace and an installed hot water tank before the offer to purchase is done. 
On older resale homes, it is the continuation of an existing and assumed contract.

If you buy a resale and there is an existing water heater rental contract...you assume that contract as part of the ownership, and then have to negotiate with the hot water tank company, if you want to purchase it and opt out of the continuing contract. 



> Your Direct Energy water heater is installed in accordance with the Canadian Natural Gas & Propane Appliance and Ontario Electric codes. Direct Energy technicians complete and document a comprehensive list of checks to ensure that all our water heaters operate to manufacturers and regulatory specifications. Everyday, a team of 700 highly-trained and licensed technicians are committed to ensuring those high standards are met


.


----------



## My Own Advisor

Thanks carverman. I ran the line for about 10 min. tonight, all clear water, but that's because the water is coming from the top of the tank as you say. 

Will look into this more this weekend.


----------



## Ihatetaxes

Just made my annual call to Reliance and within 3 minutes I have an $84.80 credit on my account good for the current quarterly bill. Tank is a 2002 and after paying rental rates on it for so many years they are happy to credit me to reduce the annual rental charge to $254.40 including tax. 

I know I should probably just buy a new one but a quick call once a year to Reliance at least makes me feel better about the amount I am paying in rent and I do like the free service calls of which I've had a couple.


----------



## Jungle

I've been calling reliance now for 2 years and the buy-out cost is always higher than if I just keep renting it. Our contract ends in 2018 and at that time, they said I can stop renting and return the tank to their depot for a $40.00 fee....

I tried to negotiate a buy-out cost more in my favor, escalated it to a supervisor and it was turned down. It's cheaper if I keep renting, until the contract is done. 

They have given me a couple of credits on the bill, but this time, they offered me nothing. 

I hate them too and only assumed the contract, when we bought the house. The previous owner had done all this. 

For others in different provinces, they are extremely aggressive in Ontario. Salesmen would lie to get into your house and fool people in signing contracts.


----------



## nobleea

For those of you about to buy a house in Ontario, make sure the seller buys out the contract as part of the negotiation process. It's got to be one of the only contracts that stays with the house, rather than with the person.


----------



## HaroldCrump

nobleea said:


> For those of you about to buy a house in Ontario, make sure the seller buys out the contract as part of the negotiation process.


You cannot insist on that.
Esp. this day & age of bidding wars, etc.
For newer homes, chances are the buyout cost for the seller will be in thousands of $$.
He will tell you to take a hike...

Secondly, if you are buying and selling in Ontario, chances are both the contracts will cancel each other out i.e. you will leave behind an open contract while inheriting the new one.


----------



## nobleea

HaroldCrump said:


> You cannot insist on that.
> Esp. this day & age of bidding wars, etc.
> For newer homes, chances are the buyout cost for the seller will be in thousands of $$.
> He will tell you to take a hike...
> 
> Secondly, if you are buying and selling in Ontario, chances are both the contracts will cancel each other out i.e. you will leave behind an open contract while inheriting the new one.


Absolutely you can insist on it. Just as you can insist on the seller remedying other deficiencies. That fact that it can cost thousands of dollars to buy out a contract must show how much of a scam it is.
To get an emergency installation of a new gas water heater at 5am on a Sunday morning costs a grand total of $1050. I know. I've done it. And that's the worst case scenario. If you want to schedule a replacement every 10 or 15 years, fine, that's only $800. The rest of the country is shaking their head at Ontario on this one.
I guess you can lead a horse to water, yaddi yaddah....


----------



## Eclectic12

^^^^

Sure ... you can insist on it ... if there are other offers that *do not* have this condition - then one's offer likely won't be accepted.

If there's any chance of competition - I'd reduce my bid and see what happens rather than add a condition that potentially makes the bid more of a hassle.


Whether the rest of the country is shaking their head or not - that's the reality of the market in Ontario. So it boils down to how much risk one is willing to take that the condition kills one's chances of a purchase. 

After all, if one is spending $531K through $1.4 million - is it worth sweating a couple of $K?


Cheers


----------



## HaroldCrump

nobleea said:


> Absolutely you can insist on it. Just as you can insist on the seller remedying other deficiencies.


But it is not the same thing, is it?
A deficiency that shows up on a home inspection is different than an outstanding water heater contract.

Of course, you can insist on it, and of course the seller is fully entitled to refuse and ask you to walk.

In & around the GTA, it is pretty much a certainty that any house < 10 yrs. old has a rented water heater.
It is the norm is buy and sell houses with an open rental water heater contract.

If there is a housing slowdown, and houses are selling for far below ask and staying longer in the market, then buyers can insist on the seller closing out the contract.
But keep in mind that it cancels out i.e. for someone moving within Ontario, they can expect to be asked by their buyer to close out the contract when it is their turn to sell.


----------



## Jungle

Actually that was exactly the problem, we were in bidding wars and the seller took our offer because we had no conditions. 
A previous bidding war we lost because the winner had a "clean" offer. Our bids were all within a couple thousand but he sellers just wanted a clean offer. 

So the hot water tank cost us an extra 800 because we assumed the contract. After being through the stress of losing a few bidding wars and trying to find a place to live all while your working and raising a family, Ill eat the 800 cost for peice of mind and to stop running around like an idiot trying to buy a house when they sell on first day on market.


----------



## carverman

Jungle said:


> Actually that was exactly the problem, we were in bidding wars and the seller took our offer because we had no conditions.
> A previous bidding war we lost because the winner had a "clean" offer. Our bids were all within a couple thousand but he sellers just wanted a clean offer.
> 
> So the hot water tank cost us an extra 800 because we assumed the contract. After being through the stress of losing a few bidding wars and trying to find a place to live all while your working and raising a family, Ill eat the 800 cost for peice of mind and to stop running around like an idiot trying to buy a house when they sell on first day on market.


Putting on conditions on the offer to purchase can definitely work against you in a seller's market. 

Sometimes you are lucky to even have your clean offer accepted, depending on when it comes in against the other offers. 

Stipulating conditions, like " we will buy only if you replace the roof, fix the electrical, upgrade the plumbing...and buy out the hwt rental agreement, then we will buy your house is a ridiculous offer, just like one time, the prospective purchaser attached one dollar to the offer to purchase
I laughed at it and considered the buyer's offer to be wasting my time...event though technically it was legal. 

If I was a seller in a seller's market, and I got these conditions from a buyer, I would just laugh and say..
"next? who's next?"


----------



## HaroldCrump

Not sure if it's been mentioned before in the thread, but part of the so-called rental is a maintenance contract as well i.e. they will fix any problems whatsoever with the equipment, including replacement.
So not all of the monthly fee is rent - part of it is a maintenance contract as well.


----------



## Xander

This past weekend I replaced my 15 year old gas power vent hot water heater. I had been renting it from Direct Energy since I purchased the house in Jan 2004. The rental fee was just under $30/mth with tax. It had recently had some issues and would not light without tapping the switch lightly with a hammer. Prior to this issue I had a dripping relief valve replaced 5 or 6 years ago. No other issues over the course of the rental. The Direct Energy tech said the unit would need to be replaced due to the age and that the underside of the tank was "pretty much done". 
I ended up buying a GSW 50 gallon unit from Lowes. With a 6 yr parts and labour warranty it came in at a few bucks below a grand. I had it installed by a Direct Energy tech for $250. After 3 yrs and 7 months, assuming the rental charges would have stayed the same, I will have paid for the new unit. I would have 29 months of parts & labour warranty left still. Even if I replace the heater every 6 years I would come out ahead almost $1000.


----------



## carverman

Xander said:


> This past weekend I replaced my 15 year old gas power vent hot water heater. I had been renting it from Direct Energy since I purchased the house in Jan 2004. The rental fee was just under $30/mth with tax. It had recently had some issues and would not light without tapping the switch lightly with a hammer. Prior to this issue I had a dripping relief valve replaced 5 or 6 years ago. No other issues over the course of the rental. The Direct Energy tech said the unit would need to be replaced due to the age and that the underside of the tank was "pretty much done".
> I ended up buying a GSW 50 gallon unit from Lowes. With a 6 yr parts and labour warranty it came in at a few bucks below a grand. I had it installed by a Direct Energy tech for $250. After 3 yrs and 7 months, assuming the rental charges would have stayed the same, I will have paid for the new unit. I would have 29 months of parts & labour warranty left still. Even if I replace the heater every 6 years I would come out ahead almost $1000.


Your GSW Hot water heater comes with a LIMITED 6 year warranty.

I think for the first year, if you register with GSW, it is covered for most parts, certainly the inner tank. Not sure about labour to replace the tank if it cant be repaired..but in year 2 to 6 it becomes a limited warranty, where upon diagnosing a defective part is found by (a gas tech), you have to send the part in to get a replacement part for it from GSW. 

You would have to bear the cost of the initial diagnosis, (unless you know enough about the heater to determine what the problem is, then call GSW.
When you get the part, you have to call a gas tech to install it so the labour is not included.
As long as the new one is trouble free for at least 6 years, you are ahead of the rental game.



> Except when specifically prohibited by the applicable law, *the Owner*, and not the Manufacturer, *shall be liable for andshall pay for all charges for labour or other expenses incurred in the removal, repair or replacement of the waterheater or any component part(s) claimed to be defective or any expense incurred to remedy any defect in the product*.Such charges may include, but are not necessarily limited to:a. All freight, shipping, handling and delivery costs of forwarding a new water heater or replacement part(s) to theOwner.b. All costs necessary or incidental in removing the defective water heater or component part(s) and installing a newwater heater or component part(s).c. Any material required to complete, and/or permits required for, installation of a new water heater or replacementpart(s), andd. All costs necessary or incidental in returning the defective water heater or component part(s) to a location desig-nated by the Manufacturer.4. The terms of this Limited Warranty cannot be modified b


Read on what GSW will cover under their limited warranty.
http://www.manualslib.com/manual/796924/Gsw-4040sn-Pdv.html?page=33

and general troubleshooting;
http://www.acmehowto.com/howto/home...ces/waterheater/diagnose-gas-water-heater.php


----------



## nobleea

Again, the gas fired HWT is one of the most reliable appliances in homes today. I would have no problems buying one without a warranty.


----------



## Xander

You are correct Carverman.
I purchased the 6 year parts & labour warranty from Lowes for the piece of mind.




carverman said:


> Your GSW Hot water heater comes with a LIMITED 6 year warranty.
> 
> I think for the first year, if you register with GSW, it is covered for most parts, certainly the inner tank. Not sure about labour to replace the tank if it cant be repaired..but in year 2 to 6 it becomes a limited warranty, where upon diagnosing a defective part is found by (a gas tech), you have to send the part in to get a replacement part for it from GSW.
> 
> You would have to bear the cost of the initial diagnosis, (unless you know enough about the heater to determine what the problem is, then call GSW.
> When you get the part, you have to call a gas tech to install it so the labour is not included.
> As long as the new one is trouble free for at least 6 years, you are ahead of the rental game.
> 
> 
> 
> Read on what GSW will cover under their limited warranty.
> http://www.manualslib.com/manual/796924/Gsw-4040sn-Pdv.html?page=33
> 
> and general troubleshooting;
> http://www.acmehowto.com/howto/home...ces/waterheater/diagnose-gas-water-heater.php


----------



## My Own Advisor

@Xander and Carverman,

Good to know. 

I am tempted to get a new tank, same as you, gas powered vent in 2015.

I just killed my contact with Direct Energy.

My tank is also 15 years old.

Were there any noticable signs of wear-and-tear? 

I see some rust on the outside of my tank, at the bottom, but not very much. I figure there is rust inside as well and for this reason, I see the need to replace the tank due to age and energy efficiency within the next year.

I was tempted to use Home Depot up the road and have one their techs do the work. I think the cost was $1200 ish installed.

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/rhe...n-gas-water-heater-with-6-year-warrant/875447

Did they take your old tank away for you?


----------



## Xander

Carverman.

Direct Energy picked up my tank. They usually charge $75 but I had it waived possibly because I carried it to the garage. 

The underside of my old tank, where the flame heats the water, was extremely rusty, rotten etc... Both the direct energy tech, that came up when I was having issues with it, and the tech that removed it and installed my new tank said it was on its way out. They said it was common with young families due to using more hot water...

I also looked at HD for hot water tanks but was told that they did not offer an extended parts & labour option so I didn't go any further.


----------



## Xander

Sorry, this post was meant for myownadvisor.



Xander said:


> Carverman.
> 
> Direct Energy picked up my tank. They usually charge $75 but I had it waived possibly because I carried it to the garage.
> 
> The underside of my old tank, where the flame heats the water, was extremely rusty, rotten etc... Both the direct energy tech, that came up when I was having issues with it, and the tech that removed it and installed my new tank said it was on its way out. They said it was common with young families due to using more hot water...
> 
> I also looked at HD for hot water tanks but was told that they did not offer an extended parts & labour option so I didn't go any further.


----------



## carverman

Xander said:


> Carverman.
> 
> Direct Energy picked up my tank. They usually charge $75 but I had it waived possibly because I carried it to the garage.
> 
> *The underside of my old tank, where the flame heats the water, was extremely rusty, rotten etc.*.. Both the direct energy tech, that came up when I was having issues with it, and the tech that removed it and installed my new tank said it was on its way out. They said it was common with young families due to using more hot water...
> 
> I also looked at HD for hot water tanks but was told that they did not offer an extended parts & labour option so I didn't go any further.


Good to know. I'll have some young lad check out the bottom of my 14 year old tank. It was a GE smart tank bought at H-D in 2000. Installed it myself then, but now I can't do that any more. I had it inspected of course by Enbridge..free random inspection.

Where you having leaking though..the rust on the bottom where the "rubber hits the road" or gas flame heats the
steel over and over. will get rusty..the question is whether the quality of steel and the thickness of the steel
they used will give you 9 years+ without springing a leak...it's the leaking that is the problem, not the rust. 

Mine is a standard flue vent with a pilot light that you need to light with a match. It had a 9 year limited warranty that I didn't have to use thankfully. Now, not all come with the 9 yr anymore, but some still do depending on make
and model. I think you just pay more for the 3 extra years anyway. Most are just 6yrs but this
is because of the power vented ones..where the fan motor may fail more often? 

My GE Smart heater has a "glass lined" tank, which sounds like the inside has a glass coating of some sort. I haven't looked underneath yet for signs of rust, but now since you mentioned about yours..I must do that.

My next tank will be another tank from H-D ( Rheem 9yr warranty @ $535, and I will have their contractors install it.


----------



## Xander

Carverman,

No. My tank was not leaking at the time I replaced it. What caused me to finally get rid of the rental and buy one was not a leak but a faulty ignition switch. I would have to tap it with a hammer to get it to start up. Direct energy would not replace this part due to the age of the tank. Had I decided to get a new rental tank from them I would then be under their new contract agreement. This new agreement would have locked me in for 20 yrs I believe. Not something I wanted to do.


----------



## carverman

Xander said:


> Carverman,
> 
> No. My tank was not leaking at the time I replaced it. What caused me to finally get rid of the rental and buy one was not a leak but a faulty ignition switch. I would have to tap it with a hammer to get it to start up. *Direct energy would not replace this part due to the age of the tank*. Had I decided to get a new rental tank from them I would then be under their new contract agreement. This new agreement would have locked me in for 20 yrs I believe. Not something I wanted to do.


Well that's a bummer! Good to know that DE stands behind their rental agreement. This sounds like a power vent electronic ignition unit that requires an electrical hookup? 
If the tank was not leaking, they should have replaced the ignition module/switch. 
Sounds like they wanted to renew the contract with you first.

I still have a furnace flue/chimney and the simple pilot light 40 gal GE tank. Checked it out yesterday..no rust at the bottom observed through the burner hole as far as we could see. Tank is 14 years old and since it's a simple tank, no piezo ignition or power vent motor..

Mine just has a gas pilot that stays light all the time, but so does my gas fireplace which has a push button piezo ignitor to light the pilot. So if the power goes out, I still have hot water and a heat source.

Don't really know how long these GE 'smart" self cleaning tanks last but I expect it should last well...another 5 years..but time will tell.

I've heard that some of the new tanks with the peizo ignition (spark ignition) have had some warranty issues though.


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## naysmitj

Rusty O'Toole said:


> It was totally a ripoff by the installation company. The Reliance people could not tell me what the money was for, and could not produce any kind of documentation. When I asked what it was for they said "repairs" but I am not responsible for repairs to a rented tank. Then they said "installation" but installation is free. Then they said they must have been necessary to fix my plumbing but the extra bill was for several days after the installation. And, I have an affidavit from the tenant that no one did any repairs or came to the house that day. In that house the only access to the basement is through the house (no outside basement entrance).
> 
> There was no extra work done. The new tank was connected to the old plumbing just like the old tank. They did not even remove the old tank, they left it in the basement.
> 
> My biggest complaint is that Reliance did NOTHING but keep billing me every month for a bogus charge even after they knew it was bogus, and finally sent it to collection. It was the collection company that dropped the matter. And they did not drop it when they knew they did not have a leg to stand on, they dropped it when they gave up on trying to put the squeeze on me. Both Reliance and their collection agency did everything they could to collect a bill they knew was phony.


Did they put a lean on your house?


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## RCB

!!

Insert in my latest Reliance water heater rental bill. Fined $5 mill by competion tribunal, agreement imposed for returns and breaking rental agreements.

http://www.ct-tc.gc.ca/CMFiles/CT-2012-002_Registered Consent Agreement_170_38_11-5-2014_3504.pdf


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## nobleea

Rona is advertising 40gal NG heaters, installed for 739. You could buy one every 3 years instead of renting and still come out ahead by the sounds of it.


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## carverman

nobleea said:


> Rona is advertising 40gal NG heaters, installed for 739. You could buy one every 3 years instead of renting and still come out ahead by the sounds of it.


Mine is 15 years old now. Bought it from H-D and self installed it for around $439 + tax back then.. and it was only GST in 2000.

Savings at least $15 a month with taxes.. now in 2015 over $2700 saved and tank is still going strong. 
It was recently checked, no leaks or rust underneath where the burner is. That's enough to buy at least 3 new tanks (one every 5 years) at the current prices of $739.

I really don't understand the homeowner rental philosophy here. Must be similiar to life insurance..you pay for it monthly,
but you never get to collect it...someone else will. :biggrin:


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## Rusty O'Toole

naysmitj said:


> Did they put a lean on your house?


They did not. They had no right to and if they had, I would have sued and won.


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## axelis

For those of you who had a contract with Direct Energy and wanted out (not buying an old tank but getting rid of the rented one), was it as easy as placing a phone call and asking to cancel the contract? Any notice period or fees or things of that nature?


----------



## chantl01

axelis said:


> For those of you who had a contract with Direct Energy and wanted out (not buying an old tank but getting rid of the rented one), was it as easy as placing a phone call and asking to cancel the contract? Any notice period or fees or things of that nature?


Depending on the age of your tank, there may be a termination fee I believe. I know when I got rid of mine I had to call and get some type of a form with a contract cancellation number on it that had to accompany the old rental hot water heater when it was returned to Direct Energy by the company I bought my new hot water heater from.


----------



## axelis

Thank you I guess I'll have to make the call... it's old - it came with the house when we moved in in 2007... which was already there for 2 years so it's probably 10 years old...


----------



## Brian K

I replace my own hot water tanks too. I just bought one at Rona for $469 plus GST AND I bought it on the first Tuesday of the month and got my 10% seniors discount. Actually if you ask - you will get the discount anytime. What a deal!!! 

I too have the proverbial "peace of mind" that those with rental agreements often talk about - but my peace of mind comes from doing it myself, and saving money, and not giving it away to tank rental companies. What a scam. IF the tank ever did fail and I didn't feel like changing it - there are lots of plumbers that do right away - just look in the phone book.
I also change the anode every 3 years. They are only about $25 and helps the tanks last longer. I only buy the tanks with 6 year warranties too - not the 9 or 12 year warranties.


----------



## carverman

Brian K said:


> I too have the proverbial "peace of mind" that those with rental agreements often talk about - but my peace of mind comes from doing it myself, and saving money, and not giving it away to tank rental companies. What a scam. IF the tank ever did fail and I didn't feel like changing it - there are lots of plumbers that do right away - just look in the phone book.
> I also change the anode every 3 years. They are only about $25 and helps the tanks last longer. I only buy the tanks with 6 year warranties too - not the 9 or 12 year warranties.


I haven't been able to change the anode on my 15 year old GE smart tank (glass lined) yet, but it is still working. 

I tried to unscrew that big anode nut, but it seems to be seized, even with a large monkey wrench, so I don't want to force it at this point in it's lifespan and cause a crack that will leak and make it useless.

When it finally fails, I will buy another and have it installed for me.


----------



## Xoron

carverman said:


> ...I tried to unscrew that big anode nut, but it seems to be seized, even with a large monkey wrench, so I don't want to force it at this point in it's lifespan and cause a crack that will leak and make it useless.


I checked mine a few years ago, and it was quite hard to get out. I got a huge socket, wrench and had to put an extension on it to get it to budge. But it came out and it didn't need replacement.


----------



## carverman

Xoron said:


> I checked mine a few years ago, and it was quite hard to get out. I got a huge socket, wrench and had to put an extension on it to get it to budge. But it came out and it didn't need replacement.


It all depends on the water supply, if you are on a well with hard water, lots of mineral deposits including iron,
it may have to be changed more often. 

In the city (Ottawa) where the water is softer, with not as much calcium or salt in it doesn't need changing
that often, if at all. I'm sure that the HWT rental companies don't come around and do any routine maitnance
on their tanks like replacing the sacrificial anode every 3 years or so. They probably only come around when
their HWT stops working..and replace it. That's why they can charge that monthly rental fee.

Households that have additional water softners (salt introduced into the water) may need the anodes changed more often.


----------



## Brian K

I use an electric impact wrench to get mine out. Even then it takes some liquid wrench around the threads. A breaker bar didn't work - but I moved the tank. In Calgary, with a water softener, I need to replace it about every 3-4 years. We also have a cabin with a well, high iron content and a water softener and the anode always looks good for some reason. The anode on my parents HWT in Ottawa which was about 15 years old still looked good so the water in Ottawa is not very corrosive. I won't bother looking at theirs for many more years.


----------



## carverman

Brian K said:


> I use an electric impact wrench to get mine out. Even then it takes some liquid wrench around the threads. A breaker bar didn't work - but I moved the tank. In Calgary, *with a water softener, I need to replace it about every 3-4 years.* We also have a cabin with a well, high iron content and a water softener and the anode always looks good for some reason. The anode on my parents HWT in Ottawa which was about 15 years old still looked good so the water in Ottawa is not very corrosive. I won't bother looking at theirs for many more years.



Good to know. I got an electric impact wrench (Mastercraft) this past year for the first time in my life. You have to get these
special black hardened steel sockets for it, as the regular chrome sockets just shatter. Found this out on a seized wheel nut.

My tank is now 15 years old..if I can get another 2 or 3 years out of it, that will be great. I'll have it replaced with another
one from H-D or Lowes..which ever has the best price at the time. I'll get their contractors to install it, as I'm no longer
capable of handling these tanks.

Back to the furnace maintenance contract discussion; meet you on that thread.


----------



## Brian K

My impact wrench is from CT as well. Works great. I use a regular chrome socket and it hasn't split (yet) but I know I should use the impact ones. Got the chrome one at a pawn shop for cheap years ago. 

My parents got their tank from Lowes - but it has a pretty complicated gas valve with lots of diagnostic crap on it. I bought my tank at Rona - and it has the simple style gas valve with not as much to go wrong which I prefer.


----------



## carverman

Brian K said:


> My impact wrench is from CT as well. Works great. I use a regular chrome socket and it hasn't split (yet) but I know I should use the impact ones. Got the chrome one at a pawn shop for cheap years ago.


The sockets were better made years ago. Got some from CTC to use on a frozen wheel nut and it split, had to buy the better grade impact socket. A lot of the tools offered by CTC are made in China, so depending on the brand name, you take your chances.
Bought some open/box end wrenches at CTC last year (Mastercraft), very nicely chromed, but they would not fit mm nuts. Also bought the SAE set as well, and guess what..they didn't fit a half inch nut either! Took them back and got Stanley replacement sets and they fit perfectly,yet these were made in China as well.




> My parents got their tank from Lowes - but it has a pretty complicated gas valve with lots of diagnostic crap on it. I bought my tank at Rona - and it has the simple style gas valve with not as much to go wrong which I prefer.


I prefer the simpler tanks, and will take one with the pilot light, although those seem to be less and less available now. H-D are now offering the Rheem 40 gal for $430. It has the white-rogers gas valve, simple and reliable and
looks like it still has the pilot light.

I read some consumer feedback on the GE tanks with the piezo lighters where they would relight the tank after the
tank heater stopped working. They had to call in a service guy to replace the piezo ignitor and although the part was under warranty, the labour to replace it wasn't.


----------



## Andrej

I purchased a house two years ago with a 6 year old water heater from DIrect Energy (now 8 years old). I called them and asked for a copy of the signed contract to which I'm responsible for now. They gave me two options- have it mailed to me for $50 or they can send me a copy through email (after inquiring, he admitted it was just a generic copy- no signature, address, contract # or anything).
I told him I wasn't paying $50 for a copy of the contract. He insisted there was no other way. I told him that if they didn't prove to me that we have a contract, then we have no contract. After quite some time of debating back and forth, he finally agreed to let me talk to his supervisor. I was put on hold when my phone promptly died. 
My motivation is this... If I don't have to be locked into this contract, I don't want it. If they can't prove it to me (free of charge), I feel it doesn't exist. Do they have a responsibility to supply me with a copy of the contract? What steps do I have to take to make a 'formal request' for a copy- to prove that I tried- in case that I ever have to.

Looking for advice...

Thanks


----------



## carverman

Andrej said:


> I purchased a house two years ago with a 6 year old water heater from DIrect Energy (now 8 years old). I called them and asked for a copy of the signed contract to which I'm responsible for now. They gave me two options- have it mailed to me for $50 or they can send me a copy through email (after inquiring, he admitted it was just a generic copy- no signature, address, contract # or anything).
> I told him I wasn't paying $50 for a copy of the contract. He insisted there was no other way. I told him that if they didn't prove to me that we have a contract, then we have no contract. After quite some time of debating back and forth, he finally agreed to let me talk to his supervisor. I was put on hold when my phone promptly died.
> My motivation is this... If I don't have to be locked into this contract, I don't want it. If they can't prove it to me (free of charge), I feel it doesn't exist. Do they have a responsibility to supply me with a copy of the contract? What steps do I have to take to make a 'formal request' for a copy- to prove that I tried- in case that I ever have to.
> 
> Looking for advice...
> 
> Thanks


If you bought the house with a rental water heater, then it is a generic "implied contract" with the tank supplier (DE)
and they will continue charging you rental on the tank regardless of whether you have copy of the contract or not.
Asking $50 for a copy of the contract is highway robbery, but I suppose "somebody" has to photocopy the generic
rental contract and mail it to you...LOL!...another ripoff. 

here is the DE water heater contract obtained from online..
http://www.directenergy.com/ontario/home-services/water-heater/terms-conditions

specifically...




> f. the Agreement is binding upon and will enure to your respective heirs, personal representatives, successors and permitted assigns; and
> 
> g. we may register, at your expense, our interest in the Water Heater against you and/or against title to the premises. To the extent permitted by law, you agree to waive any right to receive a copy of such registration and appoint us as your lawful attorney for the purpose of doing any such registrations. You agree that the Water Heater will remain personal property even though it may become affixed to the premises. You agree to keep the Water Heater free of all liens, security interests, mortgages and other claims.
> 
> e)* Sale of your Home* - If you sell the premises, *the Agreement shall be transferred to the purchaser, and we will permit the purchaser to assume your rights and obligations under the Agreement, effective from the date of sale*, provided that:
> 
> a. the purchaser is notified in the agreement of purchase and sale that the Water Heater is rented and is subject to the terms and conditions of the Agreement;
> 
> b. you advise us in advance of the purchaser’s name and the intended date of sale;
> 
> c. the purchaser agrees in writing or by conduct to rent the Water Heater in accordance with this Agreement; and
> 
> d. you have paid us all other amounts owing under this Agreement.


AFAIK, you are pretty much stuck with the rental tank unless..you ask for a buyout option and then buy your own and have it installed..or install it yourself..IF you know what you are doing of course. 

It's like signing your soul to the "devil" in your blood..:biggrin:


----------



## Userkare

Only as a point of information... 

I just received my renewal for home insurance. The premium for 'water damage' with a $2500 deductable is $580. The information with the policy renewal has some tips to save $$$ on the premium. One of the tips is that you can save 25% of the water damage premium by installing a tankless water heater. So, one might want to factor in the insurance saving if going tankless is an option

I wish I had known that before replacing my gas fired water heater in 2013. OTOH, any new water heater might lower the premium for water damage coverage; it did with my insurer. So if you do get a new W.H. be sure to ask your insurance broker if this affects the premium.


----------



## carverman

Userkare said:


> Only as a point of information...
> 
> I just received my renewal for home insurance. The p*remium for 'water damage' with a $2500 deductable is $580.* The information with the policy renewal has some tips to save $$$ on the premium. One of the tips is that you can save 25% of the water damage premium by installing a tankless water heater. So, one might want to factor in the insurance saving if going tankless is an option
> 
> I wish I had known that before replacing my gas fired water heater in 2013. OTOH, any new water heater might lower the premium for water damage coverage; it did with my insurer. So if you do get a new W.H. be sure to ask your insurance broker if this affects the premium.


Water damage premium is $580? Where do you live?..on a flood plain? 

I guess that depends on the insurer. Installing a tankless water heater is expensive, and if your place has a rental tank, that's another problem to buy out the tank rental company to install the new water heater.
Until you do, they will still charge you the monthly rental, even if the old tank is disconnected. 

I would think that with the buyout option and the installation of the tankless heater, may override any premium discount. 
I'm sure that any new HWT will be appreciated by the insurance company, but if you already have basement flood coverage, the premium discount (if any) will be insignificant. Water heaters don't usually burst open, they would develop a rust hole and start leaking from it, and you would be able to see that, if you go down to the basement periodically.


----------



## Brian K

With respect to a leaky hot water tank, Carverman is right - the failure is usually a small pinhole leak. Get a water sensor alarm for about $30 and put it by the water tank so you catch a leak quickly and don't find it by feeling a wet carpet and if you are getting a tank replaced, get a drip pan for underneath it and plumb the drip pan drain towards a floor drain - and put in a water sensor too.
If a tankless one develops a leak, it will cause the same damage as a 'normal' hot water tank. Not sure why there is a difference in insurance rates for the different types. Also I understand the tankless ones need to be cleaned regularly so they don't get calcified inside - I'm sure DE will do that for a yearly maintenance fee too LOL. 

The other thing to install in your floor drain is a check valve so if there ever is sewer backup, this should close and prevent poo etc. from coming back up the drain. My insurance asked if I had one of those (and a more expensive CV installed by a plumber where the sewer comes into the house - aka jackhammer a hole in the floor, cut the drain and install a CV in the line). They didn't ask what type of water heater I had - they were more concerned with sewer backup.


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Water damage premium is $580? Where do you live?..on a flood plain?


 ... I guess you didn't notice his location is Ottawa too. :biggrin: $580 premium along with a $2,500 deductible for water damage do seems abit hefty.


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> If you bought the house with a rental water heater, then it is a generic "implied contract" with the tank supplier (DE)
> and they will continue charging you rental on the tank regardless of whether you have copy of the contract or not.
> ...
> 
> AFAIK, you are pretty much stuck with the rental tank unless..you ask for a buyout option and then buy your own and have it installed..or install it yourself..IF you know what you are doing of course.
> 
> *It's like signing your soul to the "devil" in your blood*..


 ... unless the poster has the inclination to DIY or as good as a handyman as you are - i.e. knowing exactly what to do, or the HWT rental costs more than his monthly cable/internet/satellite/mortgage, then *it ain't so bad to stick with the rental or until the tank actually dies, IMO.*


----------



## Brian K

My parents in Ottawa with the #$% rental contract phoned and got the buyout price. The contract started in 1995 (they bought the house in 2011) so the buy out was only about $75 - they continued to use the old rental tank and then watched for a sale on at Lowes, got an installed price for a new tank and are now happily enjoying not getting the monthly bill from the tank rental bandits. Oh and they have that "peace of mind" that comes from saving money, have a warranty on the new tank and can phone the installation plumbers for service if they ever need it - but that is really unlikely. Never hurts to phone and find out what the buyout price is and then do the math.


----------



## Userkare

Beaver101 said:


> ... unless the poster has the inclination to DIY or as good as a handyman as you are - i.e. knowing exactly what to do, or the HWT rental costs more than his monthly cable/internet/satellite/mortgage, then *it ain't so bad to stick with the rental or until the tank actually dies, IMO.*


Can you DIY a gas water heater? I though any gas connections needed to be done by a licensed gas fitter. Of course, I guess you could just ask the gas fitter to hook up the gas supply, then do the water plumbing yourself.

My HWT rental was finished ( buyout = $0 ) when I bought a new tank. The insurance broker asked me how old my tank was, and factored that into the premium. I didn't get a $ figure for that specific item.

WRT Insurance ( not to hijack the thread ). As far as my insurer goes: There's 'flood insurance' for outside water coming into your house. I don't have that because I'm on a hill and there's very little chance of flooding until the next glacial melt. There's 'water escape/backup' coverage; it's for when the sewer backs up into your house, or sump pump fails. I just dropped that coverage; it was $2500 deductable for $263 premium. I don't have a sewer, I have a septic system; if it backs-up I would notice right away when the shower didn't drain properly ( lowest plumbing appliance in house ). Being on a hill, the sump drains by gravity. Finally, there's 'water damage' coverage. It's for burst pipes and such - where the source is inside the house, except for when a tree falls on the roof and makes a hole that water comes in; that's covered by 'water damage'. My insurer will reduce that premium based on the percentage of finished basement, and by 25% if you install a water sensor and automatic shut-off valve. All in all by talking to the broker, I was able to reduce my premium by over $300.


----------



## Brian K

A touchy subject about DIY when it comes to gas lines - but they sell the tanks in the big box stores along with the gas fittings if needed so...... The pressure in the gas lines is only 4 oz of pressure and generally the height of the gas valves are the same so no need to modify the existing piping. Just shut off the small valve in the gas line by the tank, undo the coupling and unscrew it from the tank. Use some white goop for gas lines when you re-install it. A tube is a couple of dollars. I've been doing it myself for years with no issues. A pipe wrench and some soapy solution to check for bubbles and you're done.

Of course the other concern is the exhaust venting - but as long as it is in good shape (no corrosion holes) replacing it as you found it should be no problem. By the way - if you have a plumber come by and there is some corrosion in the venting, he (or she) may replace it with the 'B' vent for $400-$500 - but if the existing venting is in good shape they re-install it as they found it. If it does need to be replaced, the home owner can do it with the same venting material, but the plumber cannot. So if you are going to get the tank replaced it would be a good idea to have a look at the vent and fix it yourself if needed BEFORE the plumber gets there to avoid an expensive add on to your bill. 

Any as far as plumbing is concerned - the new "shark bite' fittings make change over a breeze. You can buy flexible stainless steel braided hoses that go from the HWT threaded inlet and outlet to 3/4" copper/Pex/PolyB and they push on. Dead easy and no soldering or crimping anymore and they actually work! These hose are about $20 and are removable. What a joy those things are. No more soldering or crimping.

Congratulations on reducing your insurance charges. It pays to ask and be aware of what the individual charges are and what you really need. You live on a hill - probably don't need sewer backup because you are smart enough to notice and pay attention = common sense! I reduced my home insurance bill to after I told the insurance company I installed a new roof. Less likelihood they will need to replace it.


----------



## carverman

Userkare said:


> Can you DIY a gas water heater? I though any gas connections needed to be done by a licensed gas fitter. Of course, I guess you could just ask the gas fitter to hook up the gas supply, then do the water plumbing yourself.


Yes, that would be the wise option. There is always a gas shutoff valve associated with the water heater and a separate one for the furnace as well. This facilitates replacement of either unit and if the unit requires to be "red flagged" as defective, then the gas is shut off for that unit(s) and the red flag condition is reported. 
Once that occurs, you have to call in licensed gas contractors to remedy situation by repairing or replacing the unit(s).

As far as the hot/cold plumbing to the water heater, there is nothing that states (AFAIK) that you can't DIY.



> My HWT rental was finished ( buyout = $0 ) when I bought a new tank. The insurance broker asked me how old my tank was, and factored that into the premium. I didn't get a $ figure for that specific item.


Usually, there isn't much discount for replacing an old HWT or furnace from the insurance companies, but if it's the first time you are insuring the house, they will ask you how old they are, and that could be an issue with getting new insurance from some insurers,but not all. 


> I don't have a sewer, I have a septic system; if it backs-up I would notice right away when the shower didn't drain properly ( lowest plumbing appliance in house ). Being on a hill, the sump drains by gravity. Finally, there's 'water damage' coverage. It's for burst pipes and such - where the source is inside the house, except for when a tree falls on the roof and makes a hole that water comes in; that's covered by 'water damage'. My insurer will reduce that premium based on the percentage of finished basement, and by 25% if you install a water sensor and automatic shut-off valve. All in all by talking to the broker, I was able to reduce my premium by over $300.


Ok, that makes more sense if you are not on city sewer and water. Sump pumps sometimes fail and surface water comes in the spring, (or fall) and floods the basement floor. I had that problem with my former house outside of Ottawa.The sump pump float stuck and I was away from the home, and the basement flooded.
All the carpets had to be replaced.


----------



## carverman

Brian K said:


> A touchy subject about DIY when it comes to gas lines - but they sell the tanks in the big box stores along with the gas fittings if needed so...... The pressure in the gas lines is only 4 oz of pressure and generally the height of the gas valves are the same so no need to modify the existing piping. Just shut off the small valve in the gas line by the tank, undo the coupling and unscrew it from the tank. *Use some white goop for gas lines when you re-install it. *A tube is a couple of dollars. I've been doing it myself for years with no issues. A pipe wrench and some soapy solution to check for bubbles and you're done.


yes, that is a tube of teflon thread compound that you smear on the threads before screwing the coupling into the new gas valve on the new tank. There is also another spot on the gas union ( T-disconnect) that has to be done with this sealing compound as well.

I did my own, and checked the threaded joints with soapy solution BEFORE lighting the tank. 
You do NOT want to light the tank until you are sure there is no gas leakage from the disturbed gas pipe joints..and the cold water connections that you have to resolder when installing a new tank. 
Most homeowners are not aware of how to do the plumbing or gas fitting, so it is advisable to call a contractor to do it.

After installing the new tank, DIY,it is advisable to call in Enbridge to do a routine inspection. You have to have a tag wired to the gas line "Self Installed" and the date of installation. 
Enbridge inspections (free if it's a random inspection), and a small charge if it's a ordered inspection, will affix their inspection sticker to the new tank. That should be good for any insurance issues. 




> Any as far as plumbing is concerned - the new "shark bite' fittings make change over a breeze. You can buy flexible stainless steel braided hoses that go from the HWT threaded inlet and outlet to 3/4" copper/Pex/PolyB and they push on. Dead easy and no soldering or crimping anymore and they actually work! These hose are about $20 and are removable. What a joy those things are. No more soldering or crimping.


Thats a new tip for me. I still used the old copper stubs and soldering method. It's not that much work, IF you are prepared and organized
to do the plumbing job..about an hour.


----------



## Userkare

carverman said:


> Thats a new tip for me. I still used the old copper stubs and soldering method. It's not that much work, IF you are prepared and organized to do the plumbing job..about an hour.


Soldering is a skill that many lack. I'm pretty good at soldering everything from copper plumbing with a propane torch, to surface mount electronic components using a binocular microscope; the basic principles are the same... solder has to flow freely into the joint, not just sit on top of it.

The plumber who did our house saved himself some $$$ by omitting shut-off valves beneath sinks; he soldered copper right up to the faucet. When I've replaced the faucets, I've had to shut off the whole house supply. Of course, I put in a shut-off, and used the stainless flex-hoses to connect up to the faucet. On other plumbing jobs where the flex hose is not practical, like from the well to the pressure tank, and to the softener, I've put unions in the line so that replacement of an individual piece can be done without major effort. I've even made some fittings to insert between the unions if I have to remove the softener, for example. Like you said.... "prepared and organized".

I don't think I would have any reservations about DIY'ing a water heater tank if, as you say, you can do the gas line connection yourself and have it inspected. Maybe in 15 years or so, I might need to replace the current one.


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## Brian K

I solder lots of things too - but with my luck and in spite of sanding and fluxing every joint and trying to do it properly, usually 1 joint leaks - in the worst possible place so when I saw the shark bite fittings, I knew how my next water tank replacement was going to be done. My tank is in a tight place and I need a third elbow to get the torch in there properly. The sharkbite hose will make the new tank so much easier to install. Below is a Youtube video of the sharkbite hoses for hot water tanks. They even come with an integral valve.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRyQeo2tkQ4

Yup - cutting corners and not using shutoff valves is common. Here is where a 'code' would come in handy to make those things mandatory. But I'm guessing the house builders would scream and cry about the extra cost. I don't bother getting my hot water tank replacement inspected because it is exactly how it was before - no changes or modifications. If I needed a new gas line to a new appliance, then I'd get a 'real' plumber or gas fitter in to install it. Actually I did have a plumber add a second hot water tank when we first moved into the house because my wife complained about not enough hot water to fill the tub. He installed the tank backwards - he mixed up the cold inlet and the hot outlet so of course we didn't have any more hot water than before. So just because you get a tradesman in to do something - you don't always get the job done properly.


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## carverman

Userkare said:


> Soldering is a skill that many lack. I'm pretty good at soldering everything from copper plumbing with a propane torch, to surface mount electronic components using a binocular microscope; the basic principles are the same... solder has to flow freely into the joint, not just sit on top of it.


The secret to good leak free solder joints is; to clean the copper pipes thoroughly using steel wool or fine sand paper, then generous use of soldering paste, ensuring there is no water inside the existing pipes.

An old plumbers trick is to use a piece of white bread to absorb any water in the water pipe next to the soldering joint before soldering. The bread gets dissolved, and flushed out when the water is run. 
Worked for me each time. Otherwise any moisture in the pipe becomes steam and the solder will not stick.

Using a good 60/40 solder heating the pipe and new copper connection is essential to getting it to the right temperature for the solder to melt and then wiping the soldered joint while still hot with a damp cloth. If you see a nice bright tinned joint, it should be leak free when the water is turned back on. 



> I don't think I would have any reservations about DIY'ing a water heater tank if, as you say, you can do the gas line connection yourself and have it inspected. Maybe in 15 years or so, I might need to replace the current one.


Yes, I agree. it all depends on how comfortable you are doing your own gas line repairs. When I replaced mine, I shut off the gas valve to the tank and let the existing gas in the line from the shutoff valve to the tank get burned off before putting a wrench on the fittings.

There is only one way to remove the pipe from the gas union coupling to the gas valve. The union coupling has to be undone first in order to allow the threaded pipe to the gas valve to be undone.


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## carverman

Brian K said:


> I don't bother getting my hot water tank replacement inspected because it is exactly how it was before - no changes or modifications.


That depends on your confidence level of refitting the existing gas pipes and ensuring there is no leaks around the threads that you disturbed. Not rocket science, but you have to be sure that both the copper and gas lines are leak free. When I did a DIY install on mine, I knew the procedures and had lots of experience from my other houses on the copper lines. The gas lines were a new experience for me, but I made sure that I had a procedure written down on the steps and the proper pipe sealant compound first.

I called Enbridge after I installed the new tank myself, to see if they wanted to inspect the tank right away before I lit the burner. They told me that if I feel confident with my work, to go ahead and light the pilot light on the tank.
It was an extra charge for an immediate inspection, but no charge on a random inspection, except that if the
inspector found any problems with the installation, a subsequent inspection would be done and charged to me.
The only issue with mine was that I did not have the plastic discharge tube attached at the time and the
inspector told me to install a self installed tag with date on the gas shutoff valve before he affixed his inspection
sticker. 

With the random inspection, at least the fire insurance is satisfied.


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## Brian K

Water leaks are pretty easy to catch, and using the soapy solution on the gas line is also very effective for gas bubble leak detection. Also your nose is a good secondary detector. Natural gas for domestic use has mercaptan in it to give it a distinct odour. The teflon paste works very well too - better than teflon tape. (last tube I got from a plumbing shop was labelled "That White Stuff" LOL - I guess that is how a lot of people ask for it)

On the installation that was done for my parents by others, they didn't install the plastic side overflow probably because the original didn't have one when installed in 1996. They also pulled off the little piece of foam insulation surrounding that valve for some reason. I've never had an issue with that relief valve leaking or relieving but I don't play with it either.

Personally I think the tray under the hot water tank is a good bang for the buck and almost every installation should have one because that will generally contain a leak and along with a water sensor and pan drain you are pretty much covered on a tank failure (pin hole leak). Funny that insurance companies don't ask for that because hot water tanks WILL fail eventually and if next to a finished part of the basement could ruin carpet and other things and a failure is generally not noticed unless the dripping water puts out the pilot = no hot water or if you go to the basement and walk into a puddle.

Well done getting your installation accepted. You saved yourself $300+! The only other problem is disposal of the old tank.


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## carverman

Brian K;558866
On the installation that was done for my parents by others said:


> they didn't install the plastic side overflow probably because the original didn't have one when installed in 1996.[/B] They also pulled off the little piece of foam insulation surrounding that valve for some reason. I've never had an issue with that relief valve leaking or relieving but I don't play with it either.


According to my Enbridge inspector, not having a plastic overflow tube attached to the relief valve could fail the inspection, but he allowed me to purchase one at CTC, and install it after he went ahead and passed the installation with my promise that I would get one right away and install it. 

He mentioned that if the discharge tube was not installed and the relief valve operated, scalding water could be discharged at anyone in it's path, so it's more of a safety issue. Made sense to me since my relief valve faces my laundry tubs.



> Personally I think the tray under the hot water tank is a good bang for the buck and almost every installation should have one because that will generally contain a leak and along with a water sensor and pan drain you are pretty much covered on a tank failure (pin hole leak). Funny that insurance companies don't ask for that because hot water tanks WILL fail eventually and if next to a finished part of the basement could ruin carpet and other things and a failure is generally not noticed unless the dripping water puts out the pilot = no hot water or if you go to the basement and walk into a puddle.


In my case, the tank and furnace are in the laundry room. Cement floor with floor drain. I never thought of putting in a a catch tray under the tank, it's now 15 years old, but when I go to replace it within the next 5 years, I will be sure to have one installed. 



> Well done getting your installation accepted. You saved yourself $300+! The only other problem is disposal of the old tank.


The deal at the time with Enbridge, (who was getting out of the tank rental business in the fall of 2000), was that you had a certain time period to swap out their rental tank (about 6 or 8 yrs old at the time) or buy it from them or go with DE. I chose to swap out their old rental tank for a new one, as they still wanted over $150? for it..about half the cost of a new comparable tank at the time. 

The deal was, that I had to remove their tank from my house myself, and put it in front of my garage so they could pick it up for free. 

I got the GE 9yr warranty smart tank at H-D..can't remember how much it cost at the time but it was around
$369 approximately. I had a truck so I brought it home myself and managed to move it into my basement (same level) as the street, with a bit of help from a neighbour and we moved the Enbridge rental out the same day.
I had the new tank hooked up the next day and working. 

As mentioned before, the tank has been trouble free for the last 15 years. If I would have continued renting from DE that took over the existing rental contracts from Enbridge ,at even $12 a month..that's 15yrs (180 months) x at least $12 (maybe more)
=$2,160 + taxes (GST for 8 years (in Ontario) ; $151 and then HST for 7 years = $280 = total $431.

I can buy a new tank for almost the price of the taxes saved over the years...I can get a 40 gal Rheem at H-D for $430 right now..if I should need it this year..and even with installation ($250) that's still only $680 + taxes for the next $768 for at least 6 years plus ($10.66 a month)....not sure that you can rent them for that price from DE. 

If the tank lasts 10 years, that's even less per month over current rental prices.


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