# Suggestions for supplemental income....?



## Harper77 (Nov 11, 2009)

I looked through some previous threads and its been a little while since anyone posted info here on being a real estate agent.

I have been trying to think of what I can do to supplement my income as I work full-time but would like to make more and was thinking of looking into getting my real estate license - schooling is rather short but not sure if it is possible to do it via part-time.

Thoughts? suggestions? constructive criticism..?


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

In my experience (as a tax preparer for real estate agents), it is very, very hard to do this on a part-time basis and have it make any money. 

Realistically, in my view, you need to sell (on average) four homes a month to make a decent living from real estate - one to cover the tax bill, one to pay your fixed license and other fees, and two to provide the profit you'll take as earnings. 

Keep in mind that your fixed costs are a very large proportion of your earnings if your earnings are low (as in "part time"). You should be aware of all of those fixed costs before you investigate this much further. 

Finally, there are a lot of people trying to make a living as part-time real estate agents. You will be competing with them, as well as with all the people who are established AND working full-time in the biz. And, given the choice, most people are going to want to work with someone who is experienced AND working in the field full-time -- kind of like how you don't want a plumber who's a lawyer on the side, or a teacher who also sells mutual funds a little bit, or a stay-at-home mom who dabbles in engineering design. 

I think there are lots of things you can or could do part-time which have a higher probability of success. I personally think people entering real estate at this point is further evidence of a coming bust in real estate - like a form of odd lot theory. 

Sorry if this sounds overly harsh -- you asked for opinions, and those are mine.


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## Harper77 (Nov 11, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> In my experience (as a tax preparer for real estate agents), it is very, very hard to do this on a part-time basis and have it make any money.
> 
> Realistically, in my view, you need to sell (on average) four homes a month to make a decent living from real estate - one to cover the tax bill, one to pay your fixed license and other fees, and two to provide the profit you'll take as earnings.
> 
> ...


I totally appreciate your honesty! My background is accounting and bookkeeping and while I work currently for a company doing their internal acctg and bookkeeping, I keep thinking there must be something I can do to make some more dough on the side.

I thought about doing bkpg and tax on the side but here is my fear: if I lose my current job due to the economy or no fault of my own, I still want to be able to collect EI - hell I paid into the damn thing for so long might as well be entitled to it until I could locate a new job.

So I always have that little voice of fear saying "what if...?"


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

You could collect EI if you lost your job. You are not required to keep your self-employment activities should you lose your employment.

Editing to add that I personally think bookkeeping is a GREAT thing to do to pick up extra money. There are so many small businesses that need their books done and are overwhelmed / uninterested in doing it themselves. They don't need a full-service accounting firm - they just need someone to organize and enter their data. Plus this is seasonal work (mostly) - it doesn't need to take over your whole year. 

If you want to add in tax preparation, this is also a very seasonal, part-time form of work. 

Since you already have expertise (and presumably interest) in this area, that's where I'd go - the risk is lower and the potential for payoff is much higher, and faster.


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## Harper77 (Nov 11, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> You could collect EI if you lost your job. You are not required to keep your self-employment activities should you lose your employment.


But if I was doing work on the side and lost my main job, EI would say: sorry U are a registered business, therefore not entitled to EI. 

Believe me, if EI can find any little piece of reason not to pay a person benefits they won't.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

No, in my experience, they will not. You are not compelled to continue self-employment activities, even if you've engaged in them in the past. And you are under no obligation to "register" your business in any form unless you start hitting the HST/GST registration limits.


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## Harper77 (Nov 11, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> No, in my experience, they will not. You are not compelled to continue self-employment activities, even if you've engaged in them in the past. And you are under no obligation to "register" your business in any form unless you start hitting the HST/GST registration limits.


BUT, if I wanted to print up some business cards, the first time that I alter my name from say John Doe to John Doe Consulting - I would have to register the business and thats where the problem arises.

I see what you are saying as far as the reporting HST re: over 30K.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Well, you don't need to print business cards. Or, you can print business cards with just your name on them. Or, if you want to make your life complicated, you can add a word to create a business name, as you've suggested. 

See this link from the EI site for more clarity on self-employment and EI:

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/ei/information/self_employed.shtml#Are

p.s. Service Canada is not connected to the business registration process federally or provincially. There's no flag from business registration to an EI claim. Don't let yourself get distracted by this red herring.


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## Montrealer (Sep 13, 2010)

Harper77, you can be a part time real estate agent/broker and it's possible. 

I know several people that work full time making a decent salary and work part time in real estate and do pretty well, however, their are many factors and tricks to be successful on a part time basis and I can share those with you in a private message if you like. 

Lastly, as for the comments by MoneyGal, I respect them because she crunches numbers for a living, however, in Montreal if you sell 4 properties a month, you are making $30,000.00 (gross) average and that translates into $360,000.00 a year! The last time I checked, GP's and Lawyers don't even make that much money in Canada. 

If you want more information, send me a private message.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Yes, I think what the OP is afraid of is that question in the weekly reports to EI (when you are collecting benefits) that asks "Are you self employed?" if you answer YES to that question then you don't get any further benefits IIRC. He might be afraid that if he answers NO to the question, they might later come across or learn about his side business somehow and accuse him of lying on the reports, and require the money be paid back on the basis of "undeclared income" or some darn thing. Those UI people can be sticky sometimes! They pull the plug first (leaving you no money to EAT!) and ask questions later.


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## Harper77 (Nov 11, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Yes, I think what the OP is afraid of is that question in the weekly reports to EI (when you are collecting benefits) that asks "Are you self employed?" if you answer YES to that question then you don't get any further benefits IIRC. He might be afraid that if he answers NO to the question, they might later come across or learn about his side business somehow and accuse him of lying on the reports, and require the money be paid back on the basis of "undeclared income" or some darn thing. Those UI people can be sticky sometimes! They pull the plug first (leaving you no money to EAT!) and ask questions later.


EXACTLY!
I know of cases where ppl have been laid off - went into business for themselves then EI comes calling and asks for their money back!

No wonder ppl do work for cash more and more!


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

We've talked about this extensively before; I stand by my comments and I've provided the link if anyone wants to investigate further.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Real Estate sales is not something that a person takes on just to earn a little extra and fill in a few hours. Your schedule is pretty much gone. The RE agents that I know tend to show homes on weekends and evenings quite often, to accommodate their clients schedules and their cell phone/beepers are constantly interupting their lives.

The only problem I see with collecting EI and your other activities is that I believe their is a limit to how much money you can earn before you suffer something they use to call social assistance repayments. A nice way of saying they will want some or all of their money back. I forget the amount and I can't even say it is still in effect, but it use to be.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Harper77 said:


> EXACTLY!
> I know of cases where ppl have been laid off - went into business for themselves then EI comes calling and asks for their money back!


Yes, this is true. But you need to be very clear what you are talking about here. It all turns on the extent to which you are "available for work" and the expected (and demonstrated) amount you make from your self-employment activities.

Also, you are talking about something different. You are talking about starting a business NOW and making money NOW. You are not talking about starting a business post-layoff.


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## Montrealer (Sep 13, 2010)

Is this thread about working in real estate part time or about EI?


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Both.


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## Harper77 (Nov 11, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> Yes, this is true. But you need to be very clear what you are talking about here. It all turns on the extent to which you are "available for work" and the expected (and demonstrated) amount you make from your self-employment activities.
> 
> Also, you are talking about something different. You are talking about starting a business NOW and making money NOW. You are not talking about starting a business post-layoff.


True - sorry if I kinda went off in left field. I posted a thread a while back about incorporating and doing some tax and bkpg work as a side business, etc.

I am just really scared and not a risk taker when it comes to EI. I want to have the comfort of knowing that I can have EI if I was to be laid off, obviously through no fault of my own.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

From the link I posted upthread:

*How small are your self-employment activities?*

When your self-employment activities are so small that a person would not rely on that employment or engagement as a principal means of living, you may not be working a full working week.* Therefore, you may be considered unemployed. A full working week is at least the same number of hours worked by other regular workers in that occupation.
*
Six factors are considered to determine how small your self-employment activities are during the time benefits are claimed. All of these factors need to be evaluated in order to obtain an overview of your situation that will determine if your are working a full working week or not.

Factors to consider are:

the time spent on these activities;
the nature and amount of the capital and resources invested;
the financial success or failure of the employment or business;
the continuity of the employment or business;
the nature of the employment or business, i.e., are the self-employment activities in line with your usual occupation or totally different; and
your intention and willingness to look for and immediately accept other employment.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

MG, I did read your link but it's still not very clear for the average person's understanding of self employment. For example, if the OP keeps his current FT job but also sets up a small accounting business on the side for extra income, I assume he'll continue to accept work (for example at tax time) post-layoff from his FT job. Since he will have been paying into EI based on his previous FTE, he will rightfully expect to collect it. But then that pesky question on the weekly reports will come up. One could easily make the case that he IS self employed at that point and if he says YES to the question, he loses his benefits.

So that's why the EI question is a very important one when considering taking on a secondary self-employment source of income. EI does not hesitate to terminate benefits on this basis.


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## Harper77 (Nov 11, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> MG, I did read your link but it's still not very clear for the average person's understanding of self employment. For example, if the OP keeps his current FT job but also sets up a small accounting business on the side for extra income, I assume he'll continue to accept work (for example at tax time) post-layoff from his FT job. Since he will have been paying into EI based on his previous FTE, he will rightfully expect to collect it. But then that pesky question on the weekly reports will come up. One could easily make the case that he IS self employed at that point and if he says YES to the question, he loses his benefits.
> 
> So that's why the EI question is a very important one when considering taking on a secondary self-employment source of income. EI does not hesitate to terminate benefits on this basis.


Your post basically sums it all up - that is exactly what I feel like I am up against.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Oops sorry, we posted at the same time. Yes, ok now I see, that makes more sense to me.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I'll leave the legalities if EI aside, but as far as supplemental income goes, to me a true supplemental income is a passive one.
Real estate brokership is far from passive.
Quite the opposite.
It involves extensive networking, advertising, and being available/on-call 24x7.
Your weekends and weeknight are essentially toast from this point on.
You will be driving all around town and often out of town.

Your life will be consumed trying to please newbie buyers looking to buy large properties, houses with granite counter tops, steel appliances and hardwood floors, for 0% down 35 yr. mortgage, and an ask price of 25% below market.

This is not supplemental income - this is sacrificing personal time/health for some extra cash.

This whole idea is based on an assumption that there is no opportunity cost for monetizing "human capital" i.e. your labor, skills, training and education.
However, nothing is free - there _is_ a cost to monetizing human capital in this fashion.

For someone that absolutely needs the extra cash to meet living expenses, there is no choice.
You have to ask yourself where you stand.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> MG, I did read your link but it's still not very clear for the average person's understanding of self employment. For example, if the OP keeps his current FT job but also sets up a small accounting business on the side for extra income, I assume he'll continue to accept work (for example at tax time) post-layoff from his FT job. Since he will have been paying into EI based on his previous FTE, he will rightfully expect to collect it. But then that pesky question on the weekly reports will come up. One could easily make the case that he IS self employed at that point and if he says YES to the question, he loses his benefits.
> 
> So that's why the EI question is a very important one when considering taking on a secondary self-employment source of income. EI does not hesitate to terminate benefits on this basis.


But TRM, what you wrote is untrue. 

From the Service Canada website:

*What will happen if I work or receive other payments during my benefit period?*

That depends on your situation. Two types of income can affect your EI benefits:

income earned while you are receiving EI benefits; and
payments made to you by your employer when you stop working.

If you work and earn income while receiving benefits

You cannot work full-time while receiving regular benefits. However, you are entitled to work part-time and keep a portion of your benefits.

Usually, if you work and receive regular benefits at the same time, you are entitled to earn a certain amount without having your benefits reduced. You can usually earn up to $50 per week or 25% of your weekly benefit, whichever is higher. Any money earned above that amount will be deducted dollar for dollar from your benefit.

The Working While on Claim measure, which was to be in effect from December 7, 2008, until August 6, 2011, has been renewed until August 4, 2012. Under that measure, you can earn the higher of the following two amounts:

$75 per week; or
40% of your weekly benefits.
Any amount exceeding $75 per week or 40% of your weekly benefits will be deducted from your weekly benefits.

/quote

Remember, you report your activities week by week. So if you make money ONE week, you do not lose your EI for the entire claim period.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

harold won't you please send montrealer that private message he keeps on begging for.

let us know what's up his sleeve


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

One part-time income possibility I've thought about is representing buyers who are purchasing from builders. The builder pays 3 - 4% commission, and the buyer agent does very little work, so you can offer to split this commission with prospective buyers. You can make up to $10k in a few hours.

There are some brokerages that have zero desk fees (no fixed monthly fee) and only take 10% of the commission (rather than 60/40% as with the big name outfits).


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

OptsyEagle said:


> Real Estate sales is not something that a person takes on just to earn a little extra and fill in a few hours. Your schedule is pretty much gone.


Not only that, but I know a fulltime real estate agent here in Montreal, with 15 years' experience and a great reputation (she sold us our home, and she was wonderful), who sold a grand total of one property last year and two the year before that. She is representing a lot of properties and gets lots of lookers, but the deals just keep falling through.


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## Harper77 (Nov 11, 2009)

yeah I think I should stick with what I know and possibly build on that re: bookkeeping and tax, and forget the real estate thing.


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## Montrealer (Sep 13, 2010)

brad said:


> Not only that, but I know a fulltime real estate agent here in Montreal, with 15 years' experience and a great reputation (she sold us our home, and she was wonderful), who sold a grand total of one property last year and two the year before that. She is representing a lot of properties and gets lots of lookers, but the deals just keep falling through.


15 years of experience and she sold one property last year? And ONLY two the year before that, so on average she made a gross income of $22,500.00 in commission in two years? Your joking, right?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> harold won't you please send montrealer that private message he keeps on begging for.
> 
> let us know what's up his sleeve


It's the "I will jump in to any thread that mentions RE and promote it at every opportunity" kool aid.

Suggest those posts be reported so the mods can deal with this type of individual. And yes, I too received nasty PMs (to your earlier point).


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Montrealer said:


> 15 years of experience and she sold one property last year? And ONLY two the year before that, so on average she made a gross income of $22,500.00 in commission in two years? Your joking, right?


There's what real estate agents and promoters say in public, and then there's what their tax returns actually show.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Montrealer said:


> 15 years of experience and she sold one property last year? And ONLY two the year before that, so on average she made a gross income of $22,500.00 in commission in two years? Your joking, right?


Well, one of the homes was worth a few million (in Westmount), so it wasn't quite so bad, but no I'm not joking, and she says many of her colleagues are in the same boat. I think it also depends on your territory in the city, but I know where I live there are houses that have been for sale for three years now with no buyers.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

First, it's really much easier to listen to what MoneyGal has to say. She's right on the money, pretty everything she's has always matched up with my accountant and what I have learned. 



Harper77 said:


> EXACTLY!
> I know of cases where ppl have been laid off - went into business for themselves then EI comes calling and asks for their money back!
> 
> No wonder ppl do work for cash more and more!



My spouse and I have been in this exact situation. We have our own company for our consulting. I work full time as an employee (not for our company, but as my regular day job), and occasionally consult on the side for extra money. My spouse usually Is self employed as a full time consultant, but if a really good opportunities comes, he has become an employee. As employees, we have oth had to collet ei before, while still having our consulting company. I was on mat leave from my full time job, and was still able to take the occasional contract,with just a reduction of my benefit for those times. My spouse was laid off, and able to do a little of his consulting work the same. However, when he got a big consulting job, and was working full time as a self employed, he was not getting benefits, which makes sense because he was was working full time.

If you are trying to get extra money know, I would just make sure you set it up properly.

In terms of being a real estate agent, again, money gal is right on. I looked at this too, and know many in the industry. It's pretty hard with the overheads and fixed costs, plus how many people want a part time agent.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

royal !! you quoted !!

how could you


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I find this thread ridiculous. 

So the OP is "afraid" to start a side business to make extra money for fear that it will affect his EI "if" he gets laid off from his day job?

If you want extra money then start your side business and don't worry about EI. One of the big benefits of having income outside of your day job is to reduce dependance on the day job.

So what if you lose EI? EI is limited in both payout amount and duration. I'd much rather have a decent side business which could possibly be expanded during a time of layoff than to worry about getting EI just because I paid into it.

I pay car/house/life/disability premiums and I can assure you, I don't want to collect on any of those.


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## Harper77 (Nov 11, 2009)

Four Pillars said:


> I find this thread ridiculous.
> 
> So the OP is "afraid" to start a side business to make extra money for fear that it will affect his EI "if" he gets laid off from his day job?
> 
> ...


So when i am not eligible for EI because I registered a business then I can call on you to pay my mtge, property tax and car payment.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

But luckily for you, "registering a business" _in no way_ disqualifies you from collecting EI!


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Harper77 said:


> So when i am not eligible for EI because I registered a business then I can call on you to pay my mtge, property tax and car payment.


Huh? Where are you getting this from?

I said that I would rather rely on a viable side business, even if that means not being eligible for EI. 

You can choose otherwise if you wish.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Love the retort by Harper77 above. Classic. Rock on brother.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Reminds me of the joke about the guy who won 649 and didn't want to claim it because he would lose his welfare lol.
You may be able to find some local business networking groups which can give you some referrals for work or even start with personal income tax.


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## Mall Guy (Sep 14, 2011)

Montrealer said:


> in Montreal if you sell 4 properties a month, you are making $30,000.00 (gross) average and that translates into $360,000.00 a year!


Montrealer, don't want to dispute your $30,000 gross/month, but I assume that's on an average house price of $300,000 x 5% X 50% = $7,500 x 4 = $30,000; with the "x 50%" being the co-broker (?). Haven't you missed a second 50% split with the "house" or as MG points out "desk fees"? And acknowledging you where talking gross, but you than split again with the government, and your $360,000 is down to +/- $90,000 before you pay your licenses fees, gas, car washes (got to look successful) cell phone, advertising . . . and the marketing effort to break into Res R.E. full time, let alone P.T. is what three years?

So become an R.E. agent, so you can get access to all the closing and sales data . . . and become an ADT security system dealer . . . track the sales activity, see who just moved in, knock on the door = commission working nights and weekends!


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## Mall Guy (Sep 14, 2011)

Four Pillars said:


> I find this thread ridiculous.


Yup, could not agree more, but very spirited! One would have to image OP is close to being out of work (company not doing well ?). Don't think I have met many people so fixed on being E.I. eligible (save for those about to go on Mat leave) over making money . . . if you get let go from current job, and are worried about E.I., stop taking side jobs!!!


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

I'm with FP here, and I'm quite surprise TRM shares the OP's concern.

Build up an e-fund.

That way even if you don't qualify for EI (which MG consistently shows you would...) you can make your mortgage payment, you can pay the property tax, and keep your car.

Two words. e-fund


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Mall Guy said:


> Yup, could not agree more, but very spirited! One would have to image OP is close to being out of work (company not doing well ?). Don't think I have met many people so fixed on being E.I. eligible (save for those about to go on Mat leave) over making money . . . if you get let go from current job, and are worried about E.I., stop taking side jobs!!!


Agreed. I would think the one time it might make sense to worry about EI eligibility is when there is a high probability of collecting in the near future.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

The most ridiculous aspect of this thread:

The suggestion that a part-time agent who is just starting out can sell 4 properties a month.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

Just as a reminder, the max EI payment is $485/week. It can help somebody get through a rough patch, but I wouldn't recommend anyone try to sustain themselves for as long as possible to maximize their payouts from it.


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## Harper77 (Nov 11, 2009)

Ok I think we need to back the truck up a little.

First off, of course I am worried about my job - who isn't these days...? And anyone on here or otherwise that says they aren't worried about losing their job in today's economy are full of crap and trying to talk themselves into thinking they don't.

Secondly, regardless of how ppl feel about EI, if someone loses their job due to shortage of work, at least there is some comfort in knowing that something is there to utilize re: EI. Hell, we pay into it and its there for us if we lose our jobs for a short-term use until we find another one, as fast as we can.

Thirdly - the whole reason I asked the ques about supplemental income is so I can make a little more and put it away - would like to upgrade the flooring in my place and, unlike most ppl these days, would like to pay cash as opposed to credit. Would also like a little something stored away in case my wife and I have a little "ooopps" and she can stay home with the little "oooppps".

Sorry if I am going on and on but I think its a huge joke when I see some of the posts on here - clearly many are in denial, drinking the wrong kool-aid or something.


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## Barwelle (Feb 23, 2011)

I sure hope your future "ooopps" doesn't come across this thread some day!

I agree with those suggesting to go with bookkeeping as a side job though... you've already got the experience and education, and like someone said, it could become a full time self-employed gig if you do get laid off at your current job.

Unless you hate bookkeeping.


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## Harper77 (Nov 11, 2009)

Barwelle said:


> I sure hope your future "ooopps" doesn't come across this thread some day!
> 
> I agree with those suggesting to go with bookkeeping as a side job though... you've already got the experience and education, and like someone said, it could become a full time self-employed gig if you do get laid off at your current job.
> 
> Unless you hate bookkeeping.



No I enjoy it and thinking its the way I am gonna go.


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