# employment laws - terminated without cause?



## twowheeled

I was wondering if anyone had some knowledge of Canadian labor laws, or just some wisdom, and could weigh in on my situation.

I was a full time, non-unioned, salary employee. I was terminated without cause. The and HR called me in, told me I was being terminated and no explanation was required.
I asked what the reasoning was for a termination instead of a layoff, explained I had never been warned verbally or by writing of my performance. They declined to answer. I was given the legally required 1 week pay in lieu of notice and my vacation paid out, but they have omitted any reference to my pension.

I'm concerned about being able to claim EI, and also for finding future employment. I have in my possession my annual performance review performed a few weeks ago, which I got a positive review from my direct manager. 

I want this changed to a lay off, so I can get EI and not have a negative mark on my resume. I've thought about some scenarios below:

1) Call the president and tell him I understand the decision he's made, and how it must have a difficult choice for him but he had the best interests of the division. Ask him if he would reconsider changing this to a lay off as it would be beneficial to both of us, and remind him that I have in my hands a positive performance review, and am friends with some of my former colleagues. 

2) Threaten him to change this to a layoff, or I will bring this up to the CEO of the company with all my documentation in hand. Threaten to inform my colleagues of the circumstances that lead to my dismissal. 

3) Sign the termination papers and non disclosure agreement, plead my case with EI and get on with life


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## sags

I don't think it matters to EI, unless a person is terminated for just cause. (quit or was fired)

File for EI online immediately, so the process begins in a timely manner.

Expect to have a 2 week unpaid "waiting period" before benefits begin. Usually you will receive benefits around 28 days after the layoff.

The severance pay will be depleted before the EI begins..........so add another week of unpaid benefits for that.

It wouldn't appear on a resume or work history, except for a gap in employment and a change of employers.

Information on applying for EI........(questions and answers.)

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/ei/application/applying_for_benefits.shtml

EI Internet Reporting Service (Every two weeks or as required to update status)

https://srv265.hrdc-drhc.gc.ca/inte...-login/ouverturedesession-login.aspx?lang=eng


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## sags

What I have recently learned is if an employer hires a new employee while they have other employees collecting EI on "layoff", the EI will contact the employer and want to know why they are hiring.

This is probably why the employer chose to terminate without just cause, rather than a layoff situation.

Due to the weather conditions, my son has been laid off for 7 weeks, and will have collected 5 weeks of unemployment benefits.

He received a letter last week from EI with a scheduled interview and request of a list of employers where he made an application for employment.

He returns to work on Monday, so he won't need to attend the interview, but evidently the EI is becoming more aggressive.

Maybe because claims for benefits are increasing. 

You can probably expect a similar follow up from EI regarding a search for employment, so keep records of all contacts.


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## Beaver101

^ I'm sure others can chime in to assist but thought I get to the gist of your concern at this late hour (EST for me) which is,



> I want this changed to a lay off, so I can get EI and not have a negative mark on my resume.


 ... just check your Record of Employment (ROE) that came with your termination letter. There should be a code there for reason of termination - it should translate to "termination without cause" which is your case since you have been given pay in lieu of notice. In effect, this is basically the same as a layoff so this shouldn't affect your application for EI. Therefore, no need to carry out the first 2 scenarios you have outlined above. As for the 3rd scenario, do not sign the termination papers and non-disclosure agreement yet - you have plenty of time to decide on that. Obtain your ROE first if you haven't as you'll need it to apply for EI. Also, no need to worry about the pension yet - if it is a DB plan, it is not going anywhere if you have been vested. If it is a DC plan, there is a possibility that contributions will be refunded to you. Good luck.


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## Cdnwife

^ +1

The only instance where your ability to collect EI would be impacted is if you were terminated WITH cause. This is not the case. The difference between a layoff and term without cause is a layoff may have the option of hiring you back. The person is being let go due to lack of work.

Employers are legally able to let employees go but are required to provide sufficient notice or pay in lieu. The minimum amount you are entitled to depends on the province you are in and how long you have been working there. For less than a year it is generally one week. However there is what is known as 'common law' and this is the amount you may be entitled to in addition to the minimum based on your position, seniority, age and ability to find a similar position.

Depending on what your position was you may want to consider negotiating as you have nothing to lose. They legally can not offer you less.

Agree w sags. Apply for EI right away even if you don't have your ROE. Often they are submitted electronically. If Service Canada gets to the point of processing your application and the ROE is not there they will contact you. If you choose to wait to file, you may lose your opportunity to collect.

Having recently experienced a RIF, do what you need to in order to get closure. The sooner you can tell your story without resentment, the better it will serve you looking for your new position.

Best of luck to you.


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## indexxx

Termination without cause is not grounds for EI disqualification. The employer likely had to put it that way as they probably have someone else in mind for that position; a lay-off could mean that you are to be rehired if that position needs to be filled within the timeframe of your claim.

I was terminated without cause three years ago, when the owner of the company sold another of his businesses in Edmonton, and unbeknownst to me, had an agreement in place with his long-term manager and friend from the other business that when the deal was done, he'd move his friend into my position in Vancouver. I was given two weeks pay and terminated and got EI with no problem as it was through no fault of my own. There is a no-fault clause (or whatever it's termed) in the EI application process. My advice is to simply accept this, move on, and don't burn that job reference bridge. They have the right to run their business any way they wish, and you never know where or when someone from that company might pop up again in your dealings further down the road.


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## OnlyMyOpinion

indexxx said:


> My advice is to simply accept this, move on, and don't burn that job reference bridge. They have the right to run their business any way they wish, and you never know where or when someone from that company might pop up again in your dealings further down the road.


+^ Yes


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## Beaver101

sags said:


> What I have recently learned is if an employer hires a new employee while they have other employees collecting EI on "layoff", the EI will contact the employer and want to know why they are hiring.
> 
> This is probably why the employer chose to terminate without just cause, rather than a layoff situation.
> 
> Due to the weather conditions, my son has been laid off for 7 weeks, and will have collected 5 weeks of unemployment benefits.
> 
> He received a letter last week from EI with a scheduled interview and request of a list of employers where he made an application for employment.
> 
> He returns to work on Monday, so he won't need to attend the interview, but evidently the EI is becoming more aggressive.
> 
> *Maybe because claims for benefits are increasing. *
> 
> You can probably expect a similar follow up from EI regarding a search for employment, so keep records of all contacts.


 ... no doubts EI claims will be increasing with the recent Target, BB, etc. closings. From your perspective that EI is becoming more aggressive, is it due to specific industries or just in general due to rising claims? Of course, rising premiums is going to follow.


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## sags

I am thinking probably rising claims.

The push could be on to get people doing job searches. I don't quite know how people do that anymore. We used to go to the various employers HR and get them to sign that we had applied for a job there. Today, everything is online and most of the time you never hear back from them, unless you get an interview.

The oil patch layoffs, Target, and the others will be hitting the EI rolls soon, as their severance starts to run out.


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## OhGreatGuru

"Layoff" would not be a correct term here. There is no expectation that this is temporary or that OP may ever be called back.

"Termination Without Cause" is the correct term. "Termination" because it is intended as a permanent severing of the employment relationship. "Without Cause" means the employer accepts his statutory obligation to pay one week's pay in lieu of notice. If it was "With Cause" he could try to avoid paying this.

Search the web for discussion of difference between layoff and termination. For example there is an article at http://www.advocatedaily.com/profile/the-difference-between-layoff-and-termination-canada.html
paras. 5 & 6 are particularly illuminating.


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## twowheeled

I should also mention that I was terminated 2 days after I sent an email to my boss informing him I was summoned for jury duty. I am quite bitter about the whole thing and wondering if it's worth pursuing legal action against this company.


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## OnlyMyOpinion

Some of the responses you already received indicated that it would not be worth it, that would be best to move on and not burn any bridges?


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## Cdnwife

Having been in a similar situation, after the initial shock of what has unfolded the first thought for me was can I stick it to them. And while this may have made me feel a bit better in the short term it would not have served me well. In searching for another job you need to leverage your network and to be honest it is amazing how small the world is. Using tools like LinkedIn you see how connected everyone is. People will talk and you don't want that mark on your reputation.

As angry as you may be about what happened, try to work through that. Write a letter and then burn it. At least you are able to express your disappointment and then you can think about moving on. If you carry the Bitterness about what happened it will overshadow your job search. You can't show the best you when you haven't let go.


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## indexxx

You need to not look at this like you were jilted. It was a business decision, move on. If a boy/girlfriend left you for reasons of their own, would you try to get even? Or would you admit that life isn't always fair and look to greener pastures.


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## twowheeled

thanks, I needed some cooler perspective. Yes, you are right my first thought was revenge and how I could get even. Especially since I have been at this new division much longer than the people who fired me, worked extremely hard to grow it, and then watch new management be brought in and destroy all our efforts. Unfortunately I am one of the last of the "old guard" as I've watched all my former colleagues leave as they all realized it was a sinking ship.

I bit my tongue when I left, and remained professional throughout. I'm not looking for any references from the management of this division, more like this has left a black mark in my books and I would refuse to go near any projects associated with their names. 

The saving grace is that unbeknownst to my former employer, their contract is going to be terminated soon and I've been promised a position with their competitor who is taking over.


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## indexxx

twowheeled said:


> thanks, I needed some cooler perspective. Yes, you are right my first thought was revenge and how I could get even. Especially since I have been at this new division much longer than the people who fired me, worked extremely hard to grow it, and then watch new management be brought in and destroy all our efforts. Unfortunately I am one of the last of the "old guard" as I've watched all my former colleagues leave as they all realized it was a sinking ship.
> 
> I bit my tongue when I left, and remained professional throughout. I'm not looking for any references from the management of this division, more like this has left a black mark in my books and I would refuse to go near any projects associated with their names.
> 
> The saving grace is that unbeknownst to my former employer, their contract is going to be terminated soon and I've been promised a position with their competitor who is taking over.


You've just answered all your own questions.


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## OhGreatGuru

twowheeled said:


> ... but they have omitted any reference to my pension....


You should ask HR what happens to the pension, and do you have any options. But if you have been employed for less than a year, chances are you are not "vested" in the pension plan, and all you will get is a return of your contributions. You should be able to have these transferred to a RRSP to avoid tax complications.


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