# Snowbirds: Who checks how many months in Canada in order to qualify for GIC?



## HermesHermes (Mar 24, 2017)

What with ATMS *how do we know* if some snowbirds aren't spending 8 or 10 or 12 months in Peru or Thailand? I also don't understand why they can't collect even if they are. They will be less of a burden to the healthcare system if they stay outside of Canada. But the thrust of this enquiry is practical not political. As far as I know there is not yet any record keeping of airline exit/entries, nor stamping of passports. Even if there was maybe CBS is not integrated with the financial departments.

Someone who is a snowbird with experience please reply. Has *anyone* ever had their GIC cancelled because they spent one hundred and eighty-FOUR days in Puerto Rico instead of Ontario?


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Who checks how many months in Canada in order to qualify for GIC?


 For sure u r qualify for any GIC


----------



## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

When you refer to "GIC", I presume you really mean "GIS" which is the "Guaranteed Income Supplement" to OAS for low income persons. Since you don't seem to understand that, I'm wondering if you really are a troll.


----------



## mark0f0 (Oct 1, 2016)

Why should Canadian taxpayers be providing welfare (GIS) for people who are not in Canada? And if they need significant healthcare, 9 times out of 10, they'll be back in Canada anyways to use the 'free' system.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm not a snowbird senior but I've dealt with issues of residency and day counts outside the country.

There is much more data collection happening at the borders these days. Different countries share information, so your entry in Country X may be reported to Canada. All the terrorism and money laundering concerns are the rationale for why this data is shared so liberally and the data collection is more extensive than commonly known.

US-Canada data sharing is particularly strong, and I can show you a print-out that shows every single entry & exit of mine into both countries. It kind of shocked me when I first found it. At first I thought this was just due to my NEXUS card but it's not; they also log my border crossings without NEXUS.

Even if you're talking about non US countries, I would still assume that the government knows the number of days you are in Canada. Data sharing within government and across organizations is also quite high, so don't assume that data is limited to one particular department.

In short, always be honest. The Canadian system is quite generous and you have choice in when you travel and how long you stay places.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

mark0f0 said:


> Why should Canadian taxpayers be providing welfare (GIS) for people who are not in Canada? And if they need significant healthcare, 9 times out of 10, they'll be back in Canada anyways to use the 'free' system.


People I know pay taxes in Canada but don't use any Canadian perks for 6-7 months.Its silly to require people to stay in your province.Sooner or later governments will figure that out as well.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

I understand that you get OAS regardless if you live in Canada or not, right?


----------



## cedebe (Feb 1, 2012)

james4beach said:


> US-Canada data sharing is particularly strong, and I can show you a print-out that shows every single entry & exit of mine into both countries. It kind of shocked me when I first found it. At first I thought this was just due to my NEXUS card but it's not; they also log my border crossings without NEXUS.


Mind if I ask how you obtained this information?


----------



## ykphil (Dec 13, 2009)

gibor365 said:


> I understand that you get OAS regardless if you live in Canada or not, right?


CPP and OAS are not residency-based so you can collect them regardless of where you live. GIS on the other hand is only available to those who meet the residency requirements, if they are eligible to get it.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

cedebe said:


> Mind if I ask how you obtained this information?


Through the DHS I-94 portal. These records are visible to me because of my particular US customs & immigration status.

It won't be visible to casual US visitors, but I bet the same information is tracked for everyone.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I suspect that this is just one of the reasons why a passport is required. Common document, common format for all countries that has the universal IT swipe and access. Seems to me that keeping track is very simple. The question would be if the Gov't department wants to access it.

We have seen a huge increase in security measures in many countries. Last winter when we entered Panama our pictures and our fingerprints (both hands) were taken electronically. When we left Panama our fingerprints were taken again and I assumed compared to the entry set for verification. Each time we have entered Thailand over the past four years our picture and fingerprints have been taken and stored. As I passed the booth and looked back I could see my spouses details come up on the immigration officers screen. Picture, fingerprints and a list that appeared from a distance like various dates of entry from the electronic record of her passport. I think digital fingerprints and photo comparison are far better than a simple passport verification. Prior to the electronic check passports were a bit of a joke. Easily forged, easy to get blanks. There have been many reports that the Israeli Mossad traveled on fake Canadian passports for years. As have others.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Through the DHS I-94 portal. These records are visible to me because of my particular US customs & immigration status.
> It won't be visible to casual US visitors, but I bet the same information is tracked for everyone.


I am not sure a special status is required to do the checking. Mine expired well over sixteen years ago where my info is showing up.
http://blog.tugo.com/en/blog/database-tracks-your-border-crossing-history-for-you/
https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/#/history-search


Cheers


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Per Ian above, passports are getting very difficult to fake. Even banana repulbics have the wherewithall to manufacture (use) Internationally consistent passports with all the security features....and the equipment to read them. Whether countries choose to use that information and technology is a different question. I've watched a few episodes of Border Security that take place in Columbia's Bogota El Dorado airport and they have (and use) sophisticated passport readers to check (their) databases. What is not yet a closed loop (I think) is how diverse and shared are the databases. I doubt Canada and the USA share their databases with the good folks in Columbia, for example.

FWIW, I am supportive of some processes that measure the coming and going of individuals between borders. It will potentially catch nefarious types up to no good... AND speaking more to my pocketbook, catching scumbags that suck off the Canadian taxpayer teat. In some ways, I think it has been a pretty leaky sieve up to now and it is time to nail those who take advantage of our social programs illegally.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

ian said:


> I suspect that this is just one of the reasons why a passport is required. Common document, common format for all countries that has the universal IT swipe and access. Seems to me that keeping track is very simple. The question would be if the Gov't department wants to access it.


Not sure why they need to access the American database as they are supposed to be sharing the info, regardless of what's available on the web.




> For the moment, the border tracking system – promised in 2011 as part of the perimeter security pact – involves exchanging entry information collected from people at the land border, so that *data on entry to one country serves as a record of exit from the other.*
> 
> The first two phases of the program have been limited to foreign nationals and permanent residents of Canada and the United States, but not citizens of either country.
> 
> ...


http://globalnews.ca/news/2569859/canada-u-s-to-share-border-security-data/

http://www.news1130.com/2015/01/19/...er-allows-government-to-track-length-of-trip/


Cheers


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

And how about all those freeloading Americans who come north of the border to use provincial health to get free medical care? This definitely happens. I wonder how much of a drain on Ontario's finances this causes.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

james4beach said:


> And how about all those freeloading Americans who come north of the border to use provincial health to get free medical care? This definitely happens. I wonder how much of a drain on Ontario's finances this causes.


How do you know this happens? Without a provincial health insurance card, why wouldn't they have to pay out of pocket?


----------



## cashinstinct (Apr 4, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> How do you know this happens? Without a provincial health insurance card, why wouldn't they have to pay out of pocket?


Yes, but they bill after the fact, not before.

As a former hospital auditor, checking Accounts & Receivables from foreign clients... well you guess how often they pay.


----------



## cedebe (Feb 1, 2012)

Eclectic12 said:


> I am not sure a special status is required to do the checking. Mine expired well over sixteen years ago where my info is showing up.
> http://blog.tugo.com/en/blog/database-tracks-your-border-crossing-history-for-you/
> https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/#/history-search
> 
> ...


I just clicked on both links and access was denied. I then googled and found the relevant page, I think, on the US gov't website, but it stated that the info had since been archived due to a change in administration or something to that effect. Were you actually able to see your info at time of posting, Eclectic12?


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> How do you know this happens? Without a provincial health insurance card, why wouldn't they have to pay out of pocket?


I heard that it used to be an issue, but I don't know if it still is today. Either fraudulent use of cards, or just getting the services and then not producing a valid card.

From this 1993 NYTimes article,


> "It's not an epidemic in any one person's practice," said Keith MacLeod, an obstetrician in Windsor, Ontario, across from Detroit, "but I would estimate that from 12 to 20 of my patients at any one time are ineligible Americans. And I'm just one of 520 doctors in Windsor, 23,000 in Ontario."
> . . .
> Loopholes and the lack of stringent controls are costing the provincial health care system as much as $691 million a year, the Ontario report found.


This 2007 article is by an immigration lawyer:



> *Americans living near the border can rent or buy health cards*. Some permanent residents and citizens rent or lend their cards to friends or family who visit them from abroad. I am an immigration lawyer, and some of my clients have confirmed that this practice is rampant. (Editor’s Note: Former B.C. MLA David Schreck has recently pointed out B.C. irregularities similar to those in Ontario.)


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> It used to be an issue. I wonder if it still is today. I've heard stories of Americans going to Canadian clinics and talking their way through it, saying they just misplaced their health card


 Yeah, yeah... go try it , I bet you will be turned away ...
btw, I've read that some Americans esp. from Florida were going to Cuba to get free health care.... one of the reasons why severals yearsago Cubans chaged the rules entering the country


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

cedebe said:


> I just clicked on both links and access was denied. I then googled and found the relevant page, I think, on the US gov't website, but it stated that the info had since been archived due to a change in administration or something to that effect.
> 
> Were you actually able to see your info at time of posting, Eclectic12?


The bottom I94 link worked just fine yesterday.

Just finished testing with both my passport number as well as asking a co-worker who has not worked in the US to try it as well. Both tests worked, with the displayed data matching up.


Cheers


*PS*

When I go to the announcement page from 2014 that the online database is available, it has the message "In an effort to keep CBP.gov current, the archive contains content from a previous administration or is otherwise outdated" at the top.

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/spotlights/arrivaldeparture-history-now-available-i-94-webpage

It seems misleading considering that the top of the page the announcement links to has an "Alerts and Announcement" banner that "The ability to create and pay for a Provisional I-94 will be disrupted during the times listed below. The options to view travel history or most recent I-94 will be available during this time."

The time in question is "*Saturday, May 6, 2017* 6:00pm - 12:00am (18:00 - 24:00) EDT".

https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/#/home


If it is truly an archived/outdated utility ... one wonders why there would be what looks like maintenance being done on it tomorrow. The way this makes sense to me is if the announcement has been archived as Trump has come into power and the three utilities (i.e. Apply for new I-94, Get Most Recent I-94 and View Travel History) are still running/active.

The "View Travel History" subsection has the same alert & announcement.
https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/#/history-search


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> james4beach said:
> 
> 
> > I heard that it used to be an issue, but I don't know if it still is today. Either fraudulent use of cards, or just getting the services and then not producing a valid card.
> ...


For Ontario, it is a lot harder as this issue was one of the reasons the province started issuing health cards with one's picture on it and that have to be renewed every five years. 

I have no idea which or if any other province/territory has put photos on their health cards. Based on the link talking about BC residents renting their cards out, I would suspect that BC at the time, did not have photos on the card.




gibor365 said:


> ... btw, I've read that some Americans esp. from Florida were going to Cuba to get free health care.... one of the reasons why several years ago Cubans changed the rules entering the country


On the flight back from El Salvador from a Habitat Build, there was about a ten page advertisement talking about how for particular medical services, the equipment was state of the art while the fees were much cheaper than the US.


Cheers


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> I have no idea which or if any other province/territory has put photos on their health cards. Based on the link talking about BC residents renting their cards out, I would suspect that BC at the time, did not have photos on the card.


When you renew your driver's license in BC, they ask if you want your health card integrated so it is happening but remains optional. A gold health card will get you senior's discounts, while they must read your birth-date on the DL.

I know several snowbirds who overstay their 212 days away and get health service when they are back. One said he was relying on the lack of federal-provincial data sharing. I am having my broken foot attended to and they asked when I went to Mexico (where it happened) but never asked for proof.

Another has lived in PV for years but continues to use his daughter's address in Canada. He went back last summer for medical care and encountered no problems with coverage.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

In Alberta there are no monthly medicare premiums. It is part of the Provincial income tax regime. Everyone gets a paper card. We have never been asked for any ID whatsover. The only request has been for either the Alberta Health Card or the number itself. That includes hospital visits.

Seems to me anyone could get health care coverage if they had access to a card. When we turn 65 Alberta Health sends us, and our dependents another card for Blue Cross. It covers prescriptions. We pay 30 percent of the cost to a maximum to $30. per. I suspect that this too could easily be abused.

I cannot recall ever being asked how long we were out of the country or for how many days in the year.


----------



## naysmitj (Sep 16, 2014)

I do not understand the limit set by the provinces on how much time you are out of the province. If I pay my income taxes to the province and the federal government, what does it matter that I am away 5 days or 300 days. They still get my income tax, but will choose not to provide me with medical care. I can not even buy health insurance to cover me when home in Ontario.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Agree completely.

The issue is that CRA, to my knowledge, is not linked into the Provincial health plans. You may live in Canada and pay federal and provincial taxes. 

There are others who do file or pay income tax in Canada. This is probably an attempt to ensure those who are getting service are also filing tax returns in Canada. It would be very easy for us to move to a low tax country, not be required to pay tax in Canada, and maintain a local address for Provincial health care in order to get obtain medical coverage.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

kcowan said:


> When you renew your driver's license in BC, they ask if you want your health card integrated so it is happening but remains optional. A gold health card will get you senior's discounts, while they must read your birth-date on the DL.


The optional separate health card is now a photo ID card....looking much the same as a DL. The old ones are either now completely cycled out, or soon to be.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

My spouse worked in health care in BC prior to the introduction of the photo cards. During that period there were most definately people from other countries or uninsured residents who used the health care cards of their BC friends or relatives. Probably one reason why the changes were made. Also to get ready for the ehealth initiatives.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

ian said:


> ... The issue is that CRA, to my knowledge, is not linked into the Provincial health plans. You may live in Canada and pay federal and provincial taxes ...
> This is probably an attempt to ensure those who are getting service are also filing tax returns in Canada ...


??? ... in what way, where CRA and the provincial health system are not linked is there any follow up as to filing or not filing tax returns?
Maybe I am missing something but without a link - the two are operating independently.

CBSA, on the other hand, that is part of the Canada/US border data sharing system would be of more interest to the provinces than CRA IMO.


Cheers


----------



## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

naysmitj said:


> I do not understand the limit set by the provinces on how much time you are out of the province. If I pay my income taxes to the province and the federal government, what does it matter that I am away 5 days or 300 days. They still get my income tax, but will choose not to provide me with medical care. I can not even buy health insurance to cover me when home in Ontario.


1. There are also consumption taxes that you are not paying if you are out of the country (i.e. PST and GST). 
2. You have a good point - if health care is largely being paid by income taxes, why aren't provinces more lenient about length of residence, as long as you are a deemed resident for tax purposes?
3.OTOH there may be non-residents who are only paying CDN tax on CDN income, not world-wide income.


----------



## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

Eder said:


> People I know pay taxes in Canada but don't use any Canadian perks for 6-7 months.Its silly to require people to stay in your province.Sooner or later governments will figure that out as well.


Fundamentally I agree with you, the taxes should solely be funding the healthcare.

But I think the underlying issue is that residents contribute more to the local economy, paying rent, utilities, sales tax, property tax, insurance, licensing, etc. Canada gains nothing by snowbirds ducking these costs and playing Cost-Of-Living arbitrage by living in Mexico and then flying back to Canada to get their hips replaced.


----------



## cedebe (Feb 1, 2012)

Eclectic12 said:


> https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/#/home


Thanks! This link worked just now. I note only 2 flights being shown, so I guess since they are basing this on entries used with a passport only, as I know I had at least one more flight in the past 5 yrs, but likely used NEXUS for entry instead.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> The optional separate health card is now a photo ID card....looking much the same as a DL. The old ones are either now completely cycled out, or soon to be.


Yes they replace the old Care Card with an ID card. MIL got one after she lost her DL.


----------



## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

The answer to OP's question is that it is hard to check on this now, and consequently it is too easy to cheat. But this will change in future. With digital checking of ID at entry and exit ports, pretty soon the government will have a database to check. And if CRA can make a case that there is enough fraud going on, they will get permission to access it. You could see the thin edge of wedge when CBSA recently announced that dual citizens may no longer use one passport to leave the country, and another to return. The only logical reason for doing it is so they can match entries and exits.

Canada is not an island, and does not have tight exit controls like New Zealand, but it will get tighter. Canadians theoretically don't need a VISA to visit NZ for a vacation, but they still stamp your passport with a 6 month visa on entry. When you leave New Zealand, you have to pass passport exit control, and I am sure that somewhere in the bowels of the KIWi government there is a computer that checks for anyone who has overstayed their welcome.


----------

