# Insurance...



## patmanz (Jul 26, 2010)

I currently have 0 insurance.

I am fairly young, no dependable at charge.

I dont know how to purchase some insurance without getting assraped... anyone can point me to the right direction ?

I want term 20 or similar


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

A Financial Advisor will sell you insurance and most seem desperate for your business. You can find one by doing a quote through kanetix.ca, under life insurance. I don't know of any companies that let you buy direct from them. This is why it's mostly sold through FAs. I found the price quotes to be the same between online quotes and several FAs. Beware that once you give your phone number or email address, they will call to continually follow up, so they can make a sale. You already know you want term life, so if they try to upsell you on something else, just tell them "no thanks". 

Make sure you get a good company with a solid rating, ie Canada Life is up there.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

patmanz said:


> I currently have 0 insurance.
> 
> I am fairly young, no dependable at charge.
> 
> ...


Whether Term 20 is right for you or not depends on two things - what are your future plans (hence, need for insurance) and your present age.
"Fairly young" may mean 21 or it may mean 35 
Do you plan to get married and have kids?
If so, your insurance needs will peak around the time you start raising a family.
Depending on when that happens, you may already be 10 years into a Term 20 and by that time you are, say, 35 years old and insurance is more expensive.

If you are in your early 20s, I'd say wait until you have made up your future plans.
But if you are in your early 30s and see yourself starting a family soon, I'd say get Term 20 now.
Regardless, it is important to stay healthy, don't smoke (or quit, if you do), drink rarely, if at all, watch your weight and get regular health check-ups.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I bought some term life insurance from RBC Insurance. You just call and get a quote, answer a few questions. They will do a house visit and you need have had a recent physical done.

Price was pretty reasonable and it was easy.


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## patmanz (Jul 26, 2010)

Jungle said:


> A Financial Advisor will sell you insurance and most seem desperate for your business. You can find one by doing a quote through kanetix.ca, under life insurance. I don't know of any companies that let you buy direct from them. This is why it's mostly sold through FAs. I found the price quotes to be the same between online quotes and several FAs. Beware that once you give your phone number or email address, they will call to continually follow up, so they can make a sale. You already know you want term life, so if they try to upsell you on something else, just tell them "no thanks".
> 
> Make sure you get a good company with a solid rating, ie Canada Life is up there.


I will do all i can to avoid dealing with those crooked salesman's !


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## patmanz (Jul 26, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Whether Term 20 is right for you or not depends on two things - what are your future plans (hence, need for insurance) and your present age.
> "Fairly young" may mean 21 or it may mean 35
> Do you plan to get married and have kids?
> If so, your insurance needs will peak around the time you start raising a family.
> ...


Very good advices Harold (as always).


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## patmanz (Jul 26, 2010)

Imagine the following situation:

- no dependable
- 10-15 years of expense in the bank
- debt free
- no wife, newish girlfriend

...is the any point in getting a life insurance at all ???


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Do you have a wife/girlfriend?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I don't see the point. You need a REASON to buy insurance. You don't seem to have one.

And yes, of course it's easy to buy it. That's not the issue. The issue with insurance is when it comes time to make a claim. That's the real test of how good a company is. They have numerous very tiring forms and processes for claimants to follow. This is something you should try and avoid, quite frankly, unless you enjoy flushing your money down the toilet every month.


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## patmanz (Jul 26, 2010)

Thanks for all the answers folks, fvck the insurance


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

Actually, with no dependants, I see no reason for life insurance, unless there are other family circumstances that warrant it.

However, being young, you may want to linsure your future earning potential by looking into disability insurance for yourself.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> ... The issue with insurance is when it comes time to make a claim. That's the real test of how good a company is. They have numerous very tiring forms and processes for claimants to follow. This is something you should try and avoid, quite frankly, unless you enjoy flushing your money down the toilet every month.


Shouldn't be a problem with life insurance. You're either dead or you're not. All the executor or beneficiary has to do is send a copy of the death certificate to the insurance compnay, and maybe complete one form for their records. 

But I agree any other kind of insurance can involve lots of paper work as they try to figure out how little they can get away with paying.


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## Y&T2010 (Dec 29, 2009)

Sometimes work offers some life insurance through your benefits (mine was $50K), but I recently got a place and then it seemed necessary to get life insurance.

I am late 20's and had no life insurance previous to this (and didn't think it was necessary).

You should read the "Wealthy Barber" it talks about when you need life insurance and why. 

I got it through RBC.


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## patmanz (Jul 26, 2010)

I think its worth to mention that a 'financial advisor' tried to sell me whole life as a tax evasion scheme, lol


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

what about *disability insurance* for someone self-employed who have no dependent, not married, and have an emergency fund worth a few years of expense ? someone doing office work and nothing dangerous

is disability insurance worth considering ?


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## wheel (Jun 22, 2010)

larry81 said:


> what about *disability insurance* for someone self-employed who have no dependent, not married, and have an emergency fund worth a few years of expense ? someone doing office work and nothing dangerous
> 
> is disability insurance worth considering ?


Yes, because now you have someone dependent on that income - you.

Things to consider:
- elimination period, or how long before after you become disabled that you start getting a benefit.
- duration of benefits. Common are 2 years, 5 years, to age 65. The first two seem problematic to me, you are permanently disabled then payments stop after two years?
- cost of living increase. 
- own occupation rider. The DI companies have a funny little clause where you're only disabled for the first two years if you can't do your job. After that, you're basically disabled only if you can't do any job. You'll need a rider if you want to remove that clause.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Disability insurance companies use very invasive methods to try and squirm out of paying. I wouldn't spend one red cent on it. I recommend to all, that you first talk to some people who have had to collect from these types of insurance plans, before spending your hard-earned money on it. Not all disability is as blatant and clear-cut as losing your legs on the job.

Insurance companies exist only to make money for themselves!


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Regarding DI for self-employed, don't you have the option of contributing to EI (both employee and employer contributions)?
If so, you could choose to do that instead.
I'd think EI claim rules are simpler and more transparent than private insurance companies.
I could be wrong though about the EI part.


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Regarding DI for self-employed, don't you have the option of contributing to EI (both employee and employer contributions)?
> If so, you could choose to do that instead.
> I'd think EI claim rules are simpler and more transparent than private insurance companies.
> I could be wrong though about the EI part.


please enlighten me regarding what is 'EI'


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Employment insurance. 

If you are self-employed, you may qualify for sickness benefits under the EI program. Sickness benefits are payable for a maximum of 15 weeks and a maximum amount of $457 per week for 15 weeks. 

In addition, there is a disability pension if you become completely disabled (such that you are not able to work at any occupation) through CPP. The maximum disability pension is about $1100 per month (for those that qualify) and the average that a disabled pensioner actually received (in 2008, latest figures I have) is about $800 month. This pension stops at age 65 and converts to a "regular" (lower) CPP pension. 

I would hesitate to suggest that the EI and CPP sickness and disability pension programs are in any meaningful way comparable to privately-purchased disability insurance. 

Disability insurance is most useful (1) in the early stages of your working life, when your untapped human capital has the most value and (2) if you have high current expenses and low financial capital, no matter what stage of your working life you are in. Hint: avoid ever being in stage 2 once you've spent a decade or more working.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Yeah EI doesn't pay much. But read the rules of the private plans. Many of them break it out in terms of STD and LTD and copious amounts of ongoing medical documentation will be required. They are trained to DENY all claims upfront. I think either STD or LTD pays only like 66% of your salary etc but it depends on what you have. The more/better coverage you want/need, the more you will pay. 

Whether EI or private, IMO these plans are very basic and should not be counted on. 

So if they can't be counted on, I give them a very low spending priority.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

For those who are interested in following up on what it is like to become disabled during your working life, Toronto financial planner Janet Freedman's book "Hit by an Iceberg: Coping with Disability in mid-Career" is probably worth a read.


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## wheel (Jun 22, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> They are trained to DENY all claims upfront.


This type of nonsense destroys your credibility. You simply don't know what you're talking about.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

wheel said:


> This type of nonsense destroys your credibility. You simply don't know what you're talking about.


Righto. And you know this how?


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> Employment insurance.
> 
> If you are self-employed, you may qualify for sickness benefits under the EI program. Sickness benefits are payable for a maximum of 15 weeks and a maximum amount of $457 per week for 15 weeks.
> 
> ...


I assume this is a federal gov program, is there any url, i cant seem to find anything regarding the application process/conditions


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Employment insurance sickness benefits

CPP disability benefits

What did you type in? Those are the phrases I typed into Google, and those were the very first results for each search phrase.


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## wheel (Jun 22, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> Righto. And you know this how?


I've been privy to the inner workings of the DI claims section of an insurance company. That's how. Your posts in this thread are complete nonsense and have nothing to do with reality. GIve your head a shake and take off the tinfoil hat.


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## Sustainable PF (Nov 5, 2010)

How long does it usually take to be approved (or denied) insurance after the paper work and blood work has been done?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

wheel said:


> I've been privy to the inner workings of the DI claims section of an insurance company. That's how. Your posts in this thread are complete nonsense and have nothing to do with reality. GIve your head a shake and take off the tinfoil hat.


I have news for you my friend. I too am familiar with how things work, from what I've experienced as well as several colleagues and some family members who had to use this "insurance". Contrary to your personal attacks, my comments have everything to do with reality and nothing to do with nonsense and tinfoil. Pity anyone who has to go through trying to collect.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Sustainable PF said:


> How long does it usually take to be approved (or denied) insurance after the paper work and blood work has been done?


Not very long, at least for term insurance.
When I got mine a few years ago, all the paperwork was done by the broker.
They assume a certain health level and base the premiums on that.
A couple of days later, the nurse comes around and does the blood work, etc.
I believe unless they find something dramatically different, nothing will change for you.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Harold, I assumed the question to be based on the collecting part of the equation, not on sign-up. Signing up for any insurance plan is the easy part, collecting is the real litmus test.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> I have news for you my friend. I too am familiar with how things work, from what I've experienced as well as several colleagues and some family members who had to use this "insurance". Contrary to your personal attacks, my comments have everything to do with reality and nothing to do with nonsense and tinfoil. Pity anyone who has to go through trying to collect.


In 2009, a colleague of mine got temporarily "disabled" due to illness.
Our company has a group STD and LTD plan through one of the largest Canadian insurance companies, which I won't name.
This gentleman filed for STD through insurance.
The run-around that he got perhaps contributed more to his illness than the disease itself.
In the end, his claim(s) were approved, but it took several _months_.
The paperwork, the number of additional tests, specialist consultations, etc. that he had to do purely for the appeasement of the insurance company was shameful.
Esp. considering that this is a group plan and not an individual plan.
The average age of our staff is mid-30s, at most, and I believe most folks are in pretty good shape.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> In 2009, a colleague of mine got temporarily "disabled" due to illness.
> Our company has a group STD and LTD plan through one of the largest Canadian insurance companies, which I won't name.
> This gentleman filed for STD through insurance.
> The run-around that he got perhaps contributed more to his illness than the disease itself.
> ...



Thank you Harold. The experiences I mentioned above all match exactly what you describe. Well said.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2009/11/19/quebec-facebook-sick-leave-benefits.html


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## Sustainable PF (Nov 5, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Not very long, at least for term insurance.
> When I got mine a few years ago, all the paperwork was done by the broker.
> They assume a certain health level and base the premiums on that.
> A couple of days later, the nurse comes around and does the blood work, etc.
> I believe unless they find something dramatically different, nothing will change for you.


Interesting. Thanks for the response. We had the blood work done mid October and have not heard back yet ... I emailed the broker this morning but thus far no response.


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## wheel (Jun 22, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> I have news for you my friend. I too am familiar with how things work, from what I've experienced as well as several colleagues and some family members who had to use this "insurance". Contrary to your personal attacks, my comments have everything to do with reality and nothing to do with nonsense and tinfoil. Pity anyone who has to go through trying to collect.


No details on how employees are trained to deny claims I notice. You don't have any experience with this, it's a nonsensical claim. You'll also notice that Harold's post talks about how someone actually got their claim approved. But you jump on a friendly voice and use someone getting their claim approved as justification that claims don't get approved. Truly bizzare.

** You have absolutely no facts or experience to back your claims. *** Geesh.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Wow. The name-calling continues. This is ridiculous. Take a look at yourself! 

I responded to your comments about facts or experience above. Harold provided supporting comments and I provided a link. A little more reading and a little less name-calling, please.


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## wheel (Jun 22, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> In 2009, a colleague of mine got temporarily "disabled" due to illness.
> Our company has a group STD and LTD plan through one of the largest Canadian insurance companies, which I won't name.
> This gentleman filed for STD through insurance.
> The run-around that he got perhaps contributed more to his illness than the disease itself.
> ...


Companies will require that you prove that your are disabled - expect this. Also expect not to like the process required to prove that you are disabled. And expect that if you are disabled long term, that you will have to continue to prove your disability every couple of years. Does this come as a surprise to anyone?

No one likes that process. But it should be obvious why this is required. And it does not affect the validity or denial of the claim despite what's being implied here.

The biggest problem I've ever seen with DI claims from people who actually know what they're talking about is in fact the process to prove a claim, not the claims payment. The biggest problem the companies have with DI is preventing fraudulent claims, which is why the requirements are rigourous. Again, that shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.


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## wheel (Jun 22, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> Wow. The name-calling continues. This is ridiculous. Take a look at yourself!
> 
> I responded to your comments about facts or experience above. Harold provided supporting comments and I provided a link. A little more reading and a little less name-calling, please.


Still waiting for the proof that employees are trained to deny claims.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Not direct evidence, however, in the movie "Sicko", Michael Moore interviews several ex- (and anonymous current) employees of top insurance companies like BCBS, Kaiser Permanente, etc. who describe an official practice of denying health insurance claims.
I grant that this is all US-centric and their system is quite different from ours.
Also, it pertains to extended health benefit claims and not life insurance or disability insurance.
However, it does show (if not prove) that such a practice is real and exists in the insurance world.
How much of that is true for Canadian insurance practice, I cannot say since I am not an insider.


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## wheel (Jun 22, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> They are trained to DENY all claims upfront.


Quoted so you don't forget what you wrote, and are now ignoring. Emphasis in the quote is yours.


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## wheel (Jun 22, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Not direct evidence, however, in the movie "Sicko", Michael Moore interviews several ex- (and anonymous current) employees of top insurance companies like BCBS, Kaiser Permanente, etc. who describe an official practice of denying health insurance claims.
> I grant that this is all US-centric and their system is quite different from ours.
> Also, it pertains to extended health benefit claims and not life insurance or disability insurance.
> However, it does show (if not prove) that such a practice is real and exists in the insurance world.
> How much of that is true for Canadian insurance practice, I cannot say since I am not an insider.


Michael Moore's movies aren't a real good source of factual info about the operations of Canadian insurance companies. That's putting it mildly. In fact, it's not any evidence at all, because the Canadian insurance companies at all levels don't work like US companies.

Canadian insurance companies are filled with people with good intent, doing their jobs. The most evil you will see from Canadian insurance company employees is beauracracy and maybe some laxness. Intent to deny consumers their claims? I've never seen that, not once, not in 25 years that I've dealt with head offices of insurance companies.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I don't have to prove anything to school-yard name callers. Grow up.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

And for the record, I have personal experience with the disability claims process as part of a group insurance plan and although I had medical evidence, the carrier still DENIED the claim. When I raised this concern with my employer, they told me that they always denied all claims upfront. I've heard this exact same thing from other people, with different carriers and both Harold and myself provided more comments to this effect.


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## wheel (Jun 22, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> I don't have to prove anything to school-yard name callers. Grow up.


You don't have to prove anything to anyone, including me. I just refuted your points and drew the obvious conclusion. 

But you're not responding because I called you names, you're not responding because you're factually wrong. You ranted about insurance companies when you don't know what you're talking about and got called on it. Calling me names doesn't refute the fact that you are ignorant on the subject yet were quite prepared to speak vehemently about it.


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## wheel (Jun 22, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> And for the record, I have personal experience with the disability claims process as part of a group insurance plan and although I had medical evidence, the carrier still DENIED the claim. When I raised this concern with my employer, they told me that they always denied all claims upfront. I've heard this exact same thing from other people, with different carriers and both Harold and myself provided more comments to this effect.


Harold showed a case where someone was paid a claim. 'Your employer' said they always deny claims. And you wonder why your credibility is being doubted?

You said people are TRAINED TO DENY CLAIMS.

But carry on, I know we're ignoring what you said.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I don't have to defend or prove anything to you. Continue picking apart every little post that doesn't benefit your own lot in life, but I'm done here. Have fun.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

wheel said:


> I've been privy to the inner workings of the DI claims section of an insurance company. That's how. Your posts in this thread are complete nonsense and have nothing to do with reality. GIve your head a shake and take off the tinfoil hat.



Maybe you have been brainwashed like all the employees to think they are doing good??

I agree with royal-mail, insurance companies will go great to lengths to weasel out of paying anything after the fact. They will always accept your money but once you make a claim they go digging for a reason not to pay from the past. They don't look too hard for these things when you sign up, they just bury it in fine print and take your cash

They keep the payments but say you were never eligible for benefits the entire time

I get people trying to sell me disability insurance all the time. I ask "do you know where I work?" "yes it says here you're military" "and do you cover someone who is disabled in a military act" "...no unfortunately we don't" Someone who will do this is either brainwashed or the scum of the earth in my opinion. I think higher of the Taliban and RE agents


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Also, it pertains to extended health benefit claims and not life insurance or disability insurance.
> However, it does show (if not prove) that such a practice is real and exists in the insurance world.
> How much of that is true for Canadian insurance practice, I cannot say since I am not an insider.


I'm pretty sure there was a better Canadian centric W5 investigative news on this that found insurance companies denying claims by digging up medical records after death etc

I haven't seen Sicko but I usually don't care for the way Moore portrays his views even though I generally agree


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> Maybe you have been brainwashed like all the employees to think they are doing good??
> 
> I agree with royal-mail, insurance companies will go great to lengths to weasel out of paying anything after the fact. They will always accept your money but once you make a claim they go digging for a reason not to pay from the past. They don't look too hard for these things when you sign up, they just bury it in fine print and take your cash
> 
> ...


i share the same sentiments


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I couldn't find the episide about how insurance companies can deny life insurance after people die by digging through medical records from before they signed up, but here is one on disability insurance



> "It's deny, deny, deny," says Laurie Tomlinson, a 34-year-insurance veteran. At one point, Tomlinson was a regional chair of the Insurance Bureau of Canada. Now he runs a consulting business helping people cash in on their claims. "Deny the first time, a certain percentage of people walk away because they don't want to take up the fight; stick around and they get another denial, a certain percentage more walk away; and then deny the third time because after your three denials you are down to the people who really mean business, and they're prepared to take you to task. So whatever percentage have already walked away that's what they gain."





> According to Boylan, who worked at three different insurance companies -- once those terrible situations actually occur, adjusters do everything in their power to avoid paying out.
> 
> At one point, Boylan says she was given a *"termination ratio,"* a percentage of disability claims that had to be refused. "It's based on what underwriting determines is the number of files that need to be terminated in order for daily operations to be favourable," she says.
> 
> Boylan says that number worked out to one out of every two claims.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

If I ran an insurance company, I certainly wouldn't make fast payouts part of my business strategy.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

wheel said:


> Harold showed a case where someone was paid a claim. 'Your employer' said they always deny claims. And you wonder why your credibility is being doubted?
> 
> You said people are TRAINED TO DENY CLAIMS.
> 
> But carry on, I know we're ignoring what you said.


Maybe it just came out the wrong way? Not a big deal... For a better phrase, they are required to collect information to make an informed decision about the claim, approved or denied. 

These are good forums, let's keep them constructive and positive.


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