# How much cost to be a doctor in Ontario?



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

My daughter is thinking of going to medical school.... I'd like to estimate how much cost to be a doctor in Ontario?
I've read that


> Many universities require an undergraduate degree that encompasses some science, chemistry, or biology courses.


, so my understanding that she should study for 3-4 years in order to get undergraduate degree and thean another 4 years in medical school?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The admission requirements for Western University's medical school.

http://www.westerncalendar.uwo.ca/Archive/2013/2013/pg534.html


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Focus on the benefits.....not the cost.


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

fraser said:


> Focus on the benefits.....not the cost.


The reality is, one still needs to estimate, prepare, and pay for med school.


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## atrp2biz (Sep 22, 2010)

Focus on getting in. Medical school admission is ultra competitive. Where is she with respect to her university studies? Has she started? Most schools do have a number of prerequisite courses in biology, chemistry, physics, biochem, etc. I think McMaster is the only school in Canada without some required specific courses? What does she do outside of school (eg. volunteer activities, p/t job).


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Ag Driver said:


> The reality is, one still needs to estimate, prepare, and pay for med school.


Exactly the point!

My daughter is still in high school, finishing Grade 9... however, I'd like to estimate expenses...
I can find prices for medical school , but 1st she need to get undergraduate degree...
So, I'd like to know how much it is including books, fees and all other applicable stuff (and excluding rent)


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Undergrad degree probably runs about $10k per year in Ontario in sciences, including fees and books


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The estimated budget for Western's medical school.

It looks like $42,000 - $46,000 per year for 4 years = $200,000

https://www.schulich.uwo.ca/medicine/undergraduate/future_students/financial_assistance.html

It looks like a pretty spartan budget though, with entertainment at only $100 a month.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Applicants need grades close to 100% to gain admission, and must proceed through several other tests and interviews.

Our friend's daughter qualified for medical school and chose to become a veternarian instead.

She was an honors student in high school and university. She had no social life at all and never had time to work.

Her parents sold their home in another city and moved to London to save on the costs.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

Here are some links that might be helpful. It might be a good idea for DD to contact the medical school(s) she is interested in. Many schools have resources and open days for prospective students. She may also be able to meet with and shadow a variety of physicians for a day.

http://www.oxfordseminars.ca/MCAT/mcat_profiles.php

https://www.afmc.ca/futuremdcanada/226/232/257#main-content


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

gibor said:


> My daughter is thinking of going to medical school.... I'd like to estimate how much cost to be a doctor in Ontario?
> I've read that , so my understanding that she should study for 3-4 years in order to get undergraduate degree and thean another 4 years in medical school?


Yes almost all MD programs require a 4 year undergraduate degree in science, engineering or nursing. Make sure she takes a look at the prerequisites when choosing her University course right from 1st year. An exceptional student may get in before completing the undergrad but this is rare. 
Mcmaster and Northern ontario school of Medicine(nosm) are two exception. The med school of the North is located in both thunder Bay and sudbury. Graduates are expected to practice in the north.
Cost will depend on whether she lives at home or away and to some extent what province. If daughter is in grade 9, add 30% to current figures for safety margin.
As prev posters have pointed out undergrad costs are 8 to 10 grand a year if living at home. Could be less or more depending on school. My son finished engineering this spring and costs were just under 7,000 grand a year in Alberta. 
Med school will vary but as prev listed, 40- 50 k a year. Only about 23 k a year at nosm though.

Alternatives, chiropractic, veterinary, osteopath, midwife.

Or choose a medical college elsewhere - Europe or carribean. But if so harder to get intern positions back in Canada.

If she gets into med school, most banks have lines of credit they will approve which may help, in addition to the provincial aid etc.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Forget about the costs. Odds are she won't get in, no matter how good of a student she is/will be. Ontario med school admissions are *cutthroat* competitive. The exact numbers vary from school to school but typically they look like this:

2500-5000 people apply
500-600 get invited to an interview
100-250 get admitted

Getting an interview is the hardest part by far. Anyone who reaches the interview stage is a very strong candidate on paper. And then 3 out of 4 get rejected. For every lucky soul who gets in, 3 equally qualified candidates get rejected.

Other provinces are a bit less competitive than Ontario, but they reserve ~90% of their spots for the in-province candidates.

You can find recent success rates here:

https://www.afmc.ca/sites/default/files/documents/en/Publications/AdmissionsBook2016-Final-EN.pdf

Ottawa: 6.3%
Queen's: 4.7%
Toronto: 7.5%
McMaster: 7.5%
Western: 6.5%


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## Edgar (Mar 24, 2014)

gibor said:


> Exactly the point!
> 
> My daughter is still in high school, finishing Grade 9... however, I'd like to estimate expenses...
> I can find prices for medical school , but 1st she need to get undergraduate degree...
> So, I'd like to know how much it is including books, fees and all other applicable stuff (and excluding rent)


Foresight and being prepared is good, but I wouldn't get too worked up yet. In grade 9, I wanted to be a doctor. In grade 10, I attended a two-week summer camp for aspiring doctors hosted by Western University and wanted to become a doctor even more. In grade 11, I started losing interest because I was learning that the sciences (particularly the reports associated with the sciences) weren't really my thing. By grade 12, I was interest in economics and that is now my field of work. 

As an added bonus, if she is seriously interest in medical school, obviously her grades in university will need to be very, very strong. In that case, her undergraduate will likely be free due to scholarships (assuming she applies to them). Right now, I would focus on saving for undergraduate school and perhaps graduate school (if you think that is her future path). Medical school will cost more than a normal graduate degree, but the savings from the undergraduate program can likely offset a reasonable portion of the extra costs. Worst case scenario, she takes out a _small_ provincial student loan. While these are no fun, I suspect it would not be overbearing for a doctor.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Edgar said:


> As an added bonus, if she is seriously interest in medical school, obviously her grades in university will need to be very, very strong. In that case, her undergraduate will likely be free due to scholarships (assuming she applies to them).


Unlikely. Major scholarships are extremely competitive. It's not enough to be "very, very strong" academically to win one.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

So, according to the Association of Canadian Medical Colleges, by the time of graduation from medical school, the average student debt is over $164,000. About half of it is tuition, and half is living expenses. (See image below).

After graduating with an MD, a number of years of residency follow. Annual gross salary for a first year resident in Ontario is ~$55,000. It will be several years before a physician can expect to make a six figure income. Many are still repaying student debt in their 40s. So if DD decides to go this route, it's important that she is, and remains, a frugalista. 

http://www.myparo.ca/Starting_Residency


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

She should read this when she is older and more mature:

http://forums.premed101.com/index.p...y-dont-tell-you-before-getting-into-medicine/


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

So far, the discussion has been on entrance to medical school.

I don't know if it is the same situation today, but a few years ago I listened to a CBC radio show interviewing graduating medical students and they couldn't find a placement as an intern.

More recently, I heard that cardiologists are looking for work as hospitals cut staff and older doctors are retiring later in life.

It seems to me that if we have a so called shortage of doctors.........maybe the process could be made just a tad bit less onerous ?


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

sags said:


> So far, the discussion has been on entrance to medical school.
> 
> I don't know if it is the same situation today, but a few years ago I listened to a CBC radio show interviewing graduating medical students and they couldn't find a placement as an intern.
> 
> ...


 When there is a shortage of workers in a certain field the student often does not need to pay for schooling instead the student will be paid to be trained by someone. The bigger the shortage & the higher the demand the higher the pay to be a student. 

If the student is paying huge amount to get an education it should make the student wonder if the student will be in high demand for work in the field of their study. 

If there are a high the demand for students that want to go into a particular field the more money that can be charged. The herd mentality of an over crowded leveraged investment when a high number of students are going deep in debt. 

The best speculative play money wise is to be paid as much as possible to go to school not pay big bucks which is the worst speculative play money wise.


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

There has been in the past a program where a medical student gets money if he/she agrees to practice in my area (North Hastings) for an agreed time after graduation. I do not know the program details or if it is still active.

Hboy43


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

hboy43 said:


> There has been in the past a program where a medical student gets money if he/she agrees to practice in my area (North Hastings) for an agreed time after graduation. I do not know the program details or if it is still active.
> 
> Hboy43


Such incentive programs are almost always aimed at recruiting family physicians to under serviced areas. If you are (for example) a neurologist, you are SOL.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

sags said:


> ...Our friend's daughter qualified for medical school and chose to become a veternarian instead.
> 
> She was an honors student in high school and university. She had no social life at all and never had time to work.
> 
> Her parents sold their home in another city and moved to London to save on the costs.


Good for her, (and for her parents' sacrifice) It can actually be harder to get into veterinary school than medical school. There are only 5 veterinary colleges in Canada. And unless you are francophone you can probably forget about the one in Montreal.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Foresight and being prepared is good, but I wouldn't get too worked up yet. In grade 9, I wanted to be a doctor. In grade 10, I attended a two-week summer camp for aspiring doctors hosted by Western University and wanted to become a doctor even more. In grade 11, I started losing interest because I was learning that the sciences (particularly the reports associated with the sciences) weren't really my thing. By grade 12, I was interest in economics and that is now my field of work.





> Forget about the costs. Odds are she won't get in, no matter how good of a student she is/will be. Ontario med school admissions are cutthroatcompetitive


It's not the point .
By myself I don't think she shouldn't be a doctor, not because of the cost, but because of her mentality. But my daughter together with "support group" that consist of my wife and mother-in-law don't agree with me  . Also, my daughter best friend planning to go to medicine, as her father is well known surgeon ... that imho one of the reason she wants it too ...

I just want to estimate approximate cost of this path, so will be able better prepare to my retirement 

imho, I thing that she can be a very good teacher and my daughter also like it, but "support group" telling that it's impossible to find job as a teacher.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Mcmaster and Northern ontario school of Medicine(nosm) are two exception.


Visited Mcmaster website, but still don't get what is the exception  Can somebody explain me in simple English?!


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

McMaster requires 3 years of undergraduate study instead of a 4-year undergraduate degree.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

Spudd said:


> McMaster requires 3 years of undergraduate study instead of a 4-year undergraduate degree.


This information was also included in the Oxford Seminars link I provided in post #10 (scroll down to read summaries of admission requirements from each medical school).


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

gibor said:


> It's not the point .
> imho, I thing that she can be a very good teacher and my daughter also like it, but "support group" telling that it's impossible to find job as a teacher.


The word "Doctor" comes from the Latin verb "docere", meaning "to instruct, teach or point out". All doctors teach (and learn from) their patients and some (myself included) spend our careers teaching medical students and residents. So it is entirely possible to be both a doctor and a teacher.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

heyjude said:


> This information was also included in the Oxford Seminars link I provided in post #10 (scroll down to read summaries of admission requirements from each medical school).


Yeap, read it


> Three-year Bachelor's degree


 , pretty similar to other medical schools


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> All doctors teach (and learn from) their patients and some (myself included) spend our careers teaching medical students and residents. So it is entirely possible to be both a doctor and a teacher.


to the same degree I can say that police officers also "teach (and learn from) their patients"  (myself included)


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Both Mcmaster and Northern ontario medical school will accept degrees outside of the usual science degree and nosm will accept mature students with fewer qualifications. With most medical schools you dont have a hope in hell of getting in with 3 yr degree. There is a possibility at Mac and nosm.
3 year degrees don't exist in many places.
Both Mac and nosm have a different method of teaching.
I also believe at Mac you can finish your MD in 3 years.


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## Durise (May 16, 2016)

For the undergraduate program, you need minimum 10k-8k. It's very in different school to school.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

My friend's son got his white coat last year and has $200,000 in debt to pay off ,living costs such as rent is included,he took 11 years and just finished general surgery so I expect it depends on what specialty you do etc.


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