# Career in Finance



## Negotiator (Dec 28, 2010)

Hi all,
Does anyone here actually have a career in finance and who might be able to shed some light to a university graduate about it?

I'm finishing up my BA in Economics, and am employed at an RBC branch.. I'd like to consider a career in finance, but have had issues finding information regarding the various routes one could take, and which are the most profitable... the bank is eager to keep me around, and clearly I'm not getting all the information I can from them... so need to look elsewhere.

I'm thinking about getting my Canadian Securities Course certificate, along with the PFP, which will allow me to sell mutual funds and act as an advisor at the bank. After a few years, eventually get into a trader/stock broker position outside of retail banking, which can be lots of money. But I'm wondering if this is the most profitable route to take.. Perhaps getting into a brokerage directly might be a better idea? 

I'm also considering doing my CFA (Chartered Financial Analyst), which will take around four years... how much does an average CFA make in Canada? Can they work in corporate finance as well with this designation? I do hear it is very prestigious, and I know it will be a lot of work to finish it, but I know I'm capable of it. What are the typical careers for someone with a CFA to embark on?

ANY suggestions/insights are very much appreciated.


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

You're at a job with a lot of great people around to probabley ask these questions to- especially if you'd like to stay at a bank. The advisors there will likely have both designations and be the most knowledgable about the the PFP vs. the CFP designations (my advisor holds a CFP). PFP from what I understand is directed more towards those in banking. 

CFA is good money, although I understand the course is quite difficult. The jobs are located in major cities, so 1. New York, 2. Toronto, and finding a position in Vancouver I understand is more difficult. However this is a high stress position, high burnout rate but transferable knowledgable definitely so that in itself should not be a dealbreaker.

Your lifestyle/long term goals will help you decide where you want to end up of course. I'd recommend doing more research and meeting with people who hold those designations or whom you admire. Goodluck


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Send me a PM or ask questions here: I hold the CFP designation and have a career which is now only peripherally "in finance" (I work for in the field of retirement income analytics, for a company which provides analytic solutions [algorithms, equations] for financial institutions) but I have worked as an investment advisor (I did the CSC and was regulated by the IDA, now IIROC). 

My brother is an analyst at one of Canada's major banks; that is mos def a career in finance. 

Fair warning: my brother has been on a 5 a.m. call every weekday for many years now. He is in the office by 7 and on a good day leaves after 12 hours. 

However, sounds like you want to be on the investment advice side, which is less time-intensive but VERY time-intensive as you build your business if you do it outside the haven of a bank.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

And as for average CFA salaries: take a look at payscale.com, which provides good salary info for a lot of different careers.


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## Negotiator (Dec 28, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> Send me a PM or ask questions here: I hold the CFP designation and have a career which is now only peripherally "in finance" (I work for in the field of retirement income analytics, for a company which provides analytic solutions [algorithms, equations] for financial institutions) but I have worked as an investment advisor (I did the CSC and was regulated by the IDA, now IIROC).
> 
> My brother is an analyst at one of Canada's major banks; that is mos def a career in finance.
> 
> ...


I feel silly - I'm far from being computer illiterate, but I can't seem to find the PM function on this site. Is it just me or is the board software that user unfriendly?

What's the difference between the PFP and CFP designations? I know my finance prof in university had a CFP designation (along with an MBA). Is Young&Ambitious on the right track? 

See, that's what I'm very unsure of - about being on the investment side or the advisor side. Obviously the salary ceiling for advisors is much lower than that of those actually dealing with people/corporate finances directly... to me, it really isn't that appealing that Financial Advisors at Canadian banks are capped at around 70k per year.. I'd like to think that I can do better than that... 

I'm just rather confused where to go from here.. whether it is even wise to stay in the banking industry, or move over to a brokerage, or even attempt to get into corporate finance.

Anyways, appreciate all the replies here.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2010)

OT and fwiw ... out of curiosity I took a look at payscale.com ... a salary listed for a career which I won't identify, no need to start that old thread ... is about 30% low ($71K max quoted vs $90K actual as per agreement). So perhaps data quoted there might be taken with a grain of salt.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Hmmm...it's been a while since I used payscale to check a salary - my recollection is that it presents an average or median of self-reported salary data, including the number of data points (i.e., "Creative Director, Toronto, 48 positions reporting, average salary $48K, low $36 and high $78") etc. But sure - grain of salt - it just gives you a flavour of what the qualification might command.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

I have BA, CA, CFA, MBA. I would say CA and CFA most useful for a career in Finance. (I spent 20 years in a senior finance role in large Bank) Pay was embarassingly high. CFA is more geared to the investment management side whereas the planning designations are more on the retail side. CFA would be more difficult than the others probably. There are many paths to reach your goal. Good luck.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I ran the banking industry center for a supplier and have encountered all the various professions. Most bank CEOs came up through the retail banking side of the business. My BIL was a branch manager for Scotia. This enabled him to live in the Caribbean for many years where the branch manager of a bank is invited to the Governors receptions. But he gave up advancement opportunities.

Many positions both in the branch and elsewhere are sales positions although they never call them that. And they pay very well if you are productive. For those type of jobs, you want to get the minimum certification needed.

Another position is in their FX trading rooms. This is where they trade their own book. There are many lucrative positions but you have to love risk and high pressure. There were years when such operations generated half the bank priofit. I think such contributions have been greatly reduced because of the internet.

If you plan to leave the bank, then you need a different strategy, taking jobs and training that optimize your earnings upon leaving.

Their Investment Banks and Brokerage operations are totally separate so that would require a different strategy, although sales experience is important there.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

Actually most current bank CEO's came from the wholesale side (trading, inv banking or corp banking). Clark at TD from CT retail mostly but spent time as inv banker before joining CT. Nixon at Royal, Downe at BMO, Waugh at BNS all wholesale. For many years with wholesale guys at the helm the CIBC screwed up so bad last time they went with a wealth management guy (McGaughey). I would say in many cases a retail banking guy might have worked better? Al Flood and John Hunkin didn't do very well at CIBC. Actually you have to go way back to Ced Ritchie (sp?) at BNS to get a retail guy. Dick Thomson and Charlie Baillie(TD) never set foot in a branch unless they had to. Likewise Tony Comper and Matt Barrett were mostly corp guys.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I don't know that the OP is necessarily setting out to become a bank CEO.


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

Off topic, but users cannot PM until they are have their first few posts moderated. It's to prevent spammers from using PM as soon as they sign up.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> I don't know that the OP is necessarily setting out to become a bank CEO.


Those guys probably didn't either.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

There are rumblings in the financial community that the commission/volume method of compensation for financial/investment advice might be radically altered to a fee-based or fee-only model.

Australia is looking at it, and indications are that other jurisdictions might follow.

The implications are that the sales-commission, high compensation 'planning' career might take on a more analytical-consulting role. Time will tell.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

All the discussion seems to be revolving some sort of financial services occupation.

Finance does not equal banking or personal financial planning.

There is plenty of work in corporate finance, project budgeting and planning, insurance and risk, and every other topic in the CFA program. Keep in mind this is a designation only, not a job. CFA's are a dime a dozen here in Calgary (well, maybe not that many, but I personally know lots of them), and their salaries are ridiculous. Think people in their late 20s early 30's earning $150k+ easily.


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

Whewee that's a nice salary! Hmm maybe I should change my career! 

CFP has a good website: http://www.fpsccanada.org/
the US one is: http://www.cfp.net/

PFP: https://www.csi.ca/student/en_ca/pfp/financial-professionals/index.xhtml
It seems they're connected with the CSI and interestingly CFP no longer accepts their eduction programs to qualify towards the CFP designation. 

Of the two I think CFP is more reputable and gives you more options. But then again you need to look at where you want to be and what you would enjoy doing...


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

Sampson said:


> All the discussion seems to be revolving some sort of financial services occupation.
> 
> Finance does not equal banking or personal financial planning.
> 
> There is plenty of work in corporate finance, project budgeting and planning, insurance and risk, and every other topic in the CFA program. Keep in mind this is a designation only, not a job. CFA's are a dime a dozen here in Calgary (well, maybe not that many, but I personally know lots of them), and their salaries are ridiculous. Think people in their late 20s early 30's earning $150k+ easily.


Good point. I agree. My job was in Finance not financial advisory.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Just for the record - "CFA" is not an occupation. I'm sure there is a large variety of positions held by people with the CFA designation - not all big bucks.

My best advice is to talk to Square Root - he's been there. 

It's impossible to know which courses to take if you don't know what your career path will be. Why don't you start with the PFP since your branch wants you to do it anyway?


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

How much does a CFP make to start and how hard is it to get a job?


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Varies widely. If you want "a job" as a CFP providing personal financial planning services you will need to work in a bank. Or you could potentially work as an assistant to an advisor or in a back-office role in an advisory team. 

If you want to be a commissioned salesperson, you can work for any one of the advisory platforms ranging from Edward Jones to Investors Group to the smaller independents (but note that a CFP is not a requirement for ANY of those positions). 

There are lots of other types of jobs you can do with a CFP designation but they are relatively uncommon. The CFP exam has a high failure rate (and that's after you get through the qualifying educational program) and you should make sure you do something that has the qualification pay off if you go to the bother of obtaining it. 

The financial services world has the potential to produce high income but, much like real estate, the number of moderate earners absolutely dwarfs the high earners.


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## Max (Apr 4, 2009)

I started as a cost accountant for the Canadian subsidiary of a large multi-national and kind of fell into a treasury. It started out pretty basic, but I took every learning opportunity I could and eventually expanded my role quite a lot and now it is treasury, credit, and collections (taxes, insurance, and other duties added and dropped along the way).

I think it is very difficult to break into this kind of position just out of school, and your best bet is to somehow find a way to rotate within you existing employer or move to Calgary where the demand is so high that they will hire just about anybody regardless of qualifications (exaggerating.... sort of). For an entry level position, I think location has more to do with your opportunities than your qualifications.

Maybe in the past, there were good positions in finance at lower levels, but now, it seems to be divided into sales (advisors), call centres (brokers), and back office (processing and paperwork). If you are going corporate, I think all the decision making has long ago been taken out of the hands of all of these positions and centralized, and no matter which road you choose you will probably find it boring while you work your way up.

I have little experience working within a bank, but I would recommend against going the advisor route for a finance graduate. Personally, I think you will find the back office road a better opportunity to learn, since you will see the how academic theory stacks up against practical application and there will be many different paths you can take if your employer is open to rotation.

If you want to get more serious about trading for the bank, I think you would need to have an advanced mathematics degree and computer programming skills, since my impression is that this is all managed by mathematical modelling and algorithms these days. Don't mean to be discouraging, but that just seems to be the way it goes.


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## Negotiator (Dec 28, 2010)

I'm in Calgary for those of you suggesting I move here 



> I have little experience working within a bank, but I would recommend against going the advisor route for a finance graduate. Personally, I think you will find the back office road a better opportunity to learn, since you will see the how academic theory stacks up against practical application and there will be many different paths you can take if your employer is open to rotation.


I'm not a finance graduate.. I'm an economics graduate... which is a lot more theoretical/principle based than a finance degree... Based on my experience at the bank, it seems that I have HIGH SALES potential, passing my sales/referral goals by 400%... by far the leader on my team.. granted, I am in a Customer Service Rep position, just because I'm finishing school, but I think it says a lot.

I DO think I would prefer the back office road... and whoever said that CFAs are a dime a dozen in Calgary... does that mean that competition for jobs is really high? I have no doubt that I would be able to finish my CFA (my GPA is ~3.70/4.00), but I'm questioning if all that work is actually WORTH it?

And from what I know, when it comes to trading, what seems to be more important is EXPERIENCE rather than education.. some traders don't even have a university education from what I've heard.. which surprised me too, but maybe I'm just confused? A broker = trader right?

Thanks for all the replies btw! Appreciate it!


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

Good post from Max. I generally agree.


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## Bupp (Nov 13, 2009)

I am in a similar position to the OP. As an economics grad I had difficulty landing a position in the banking/investment field.

I ended up taking a job as a teller and within the year switched to a personal banker role.

At this point the most likely career plan for me would be to complete my cfp designation and work in the branch as a financial planner.

After a few years in that role I can see 3 potential career paths:

1) I enjoy financial planning and I take on a role as a private banker
2) I decide I prefer people management and take on a role as branch manager
3) I transition to an mutual fund company working on inside sales (selling to financial advisors not to retail clients)

#1 I Would earn between 75k-150k
#2 I would earn between 50k-90k
#3 I don't know what the pay is, but I assume between ~75k to 200k+


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Negotiator said:


> I DO think I would prefer the back office road... and whoever said that CFAs are a dime a dozen in Calgary... does that mean that competition for jobs is really high? I have no doubt that I would be able to finish my CFA (my GPA is ~3.70/4.00), but I'm questioning if all that work is actually WORTH it?


Historically/classically, I think most people achieved their CFA's after working for some time, but my understanding is that the work experience requirements are somewhat relaxed these days, AND many new grads will complete the designation, then simply obtain the title after landing their first position and fulfilling the experience requirements.

I don't work downtown or in oil & gas, but my wife does and most of this is anecdotal, but I don't think the competition among new grad hires with CFAs is actually not that high. With the constant emphasis on 'personal development' and life-long learning, I know several engineers, accountants, and other non-finance professionals who just 'do' the CFA to advance further. I can guarantee you that those with the designation seem to make significantly more than those without, but new grads with MBAs and CFAs do seem more and more common.

I would say if you want to work the 'back office road' as we are describing it, then certainly the CFA will help. Most companies will actually 'segregate' you along different pay scales depending on your paper qualifications, and almost all get 'instant/immediate' pay increases upon completing the designation.

If you're in Cowtown follow the money, but I know of several corporate bankers at the big 5 who service the O&G sector and they do phenomenally well also. If you want the big bucks, don't go the retail route.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

No a broker is not the same as a trader. Brokers are usually retail sales types that also give financial planning advice to their personal clients. Traders are usually employed by big financial service companies and trade their employers' capital in derivatives, F/X, equities, or fixed income (or a mixture). Both groups are well compensated but traders probably more so. To get hired as a new trader you would probably want to have a math PHD. A broker would want a CFP or something comparable. CFA staddles the line somewhat as well as becoming something of a post grad degree for many finance types who work outside the advisory or trading fields. Many experienced traders don't have much education but they are a dying breed I think.


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## Negotiator (Dec 28, 2010)

Bupp said:


> I am in a similar position to the OP. As an economics grad I had difficulty landing a position in the banking/investment field.
> 
> I ended up taking a job as a teller and within the year switched to a personal banker role.
> 
> ...


I believe branch managers can make more than 90k, and very few, if at all, make as low as 50k.. 



> No a broker is not the same as a trader. Brokers are usually retail sales types that also give financial planning advice to their personal clients. Traders are usually employed by big financial service companies and trade their employers' capital in derivatives, F/X, equities, or fixed income (or a mixture). Both groups are well compensated but traders probably more so. To get hired as a new trader you would probably want to have a math PHD. A broker would want a CFP or something comparable. CFA staddles the line somewhat as well as becoming something of a post grad degree for many finance types who work outside the advisory or trading fields. Many experienced traders don't have much education but they are a dying breed I think.


Thanks for clearing that up.

Why is that brokers in actual brokerages tend to make more than their sales counterparts in banks? 



> Historically/classically, I think most people achieved their CFA's after working for some time, but my understanding is that the work experience requirements are somewhat relaxed these days, AND many new grads will complete the designation, then simply obtain the title after landing their first position and fulfilling the experience requirements.


Yup, I think the 'hardest' part about obtaining the CFA is completing the three exams.. 4 years of related work experience is required, but that is the easy part, as it'll come regardless.


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## Alaric (Dec 23, 2009)

Max said:


> ....
> 
> I think it is very difficult to break into this kind of position just out of school, and your best bet is to somehow find a way to rotate within you existing employer or move to Calgary where the demand is so high that they will hire just about anybody regardless of qualifications (exaggerating.... sort of). For an entry level position, I think location has more to do with your opportunities than your qualifications..


Breaking into this from school, you should consider looking into the rotational programs some banks offer. For example, TD Asset management has a rotational program that deals within their treasury department.


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## Bupp (Nov 13, 2009)

Salaries for branch managers come from my hr department. Someone making ~50k is at the bottom of the pay band and managing 1-2 full time sales employees.

To get above 100k in retail banking you need to be managing say 10-15 branch managers.


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## Bupp (Nov 13, 2009)

Negotiator said:


> I believe branch managers can make more than 90k, and very few, if at all, make as low as 50k..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Brokers tend to make more because they are 100% comission based. They aren't given a list of clients the way a advisor at the branch is. Because they build their own book of business they get to keep a much higher percentage of the fees they earn the bank. So where a advisor at the branch might have a book of 50 million to 100 million and make ~70k. The broker would make between 250k-750k off the same amount of business.


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## Alaric (Dec 23, 2009)

Bupp said:


> Salaries for branch managers come from my hr department. Someone making ~50k is at the bottom of the pay band and managing 1-2 full time sales employees.
> 
> To get above 100k in retail banking you need to be managing say 10-15 branch managers.


Your second setence, that refers to the area managers/district managers then.

Looking at the salary ranges (again depending on branch size), it seems like the branch managers would be capped right below the 100k (for the largest branch sizes).


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## JeffHouston (Jan 28, 2011)

*Banking Jobs?*

If you're looking for an idea of opportunities available, I'd suggest checking out some of the banking jobs that Scotia Bank is looking to fill.


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## celishave (May 8, 2010)

JeffHouston said:


> If you're looking for an idea of opportunities available, I'd suggest checking out some of the banking jobs that Scotia Bank is looking to fill.


Actually I'm a CA and deathly bored of it. Not that I don't enjoy finance, I just don't enjoy the record keeping, fs preparation, month end, etc anymore. I'm giving serious consideration to move to more of a finance type role as I enjoy investing and dealing with the public. I notice this position with scotiabank. Just curious, but what would something like that pay? 150K? 

http://jobs.scotiabank.com/ca/alber...268-senior-financial-planning-consultant-jobs

Any other ideas as to what a CA could do that doesn't involve debits and credits?


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

Oh you are lucky. CA's are found in sooo many business roles, don't think so narrowly, you needn't stay in typical accounting roles at all  I'm getting an accounting designation as well and one of the appeals for me was the endless opportunities.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

celishave said:


> Just curious, but what would something like that pay? 150K?


More like just over a third of that to start, with decent advancement opportunities within the bank, but never, not ever, progressing to $150K within that role - topping out well under that. 

This is a back-office role for someone with a financial planning designation - not a CA. You might *start* there but you would (presumably) move up into an estate planning or tax specialist role. 

BTW, the CA designation would not qualify you for this role - you'd need additional designations. As a CA, though, you can sit the CFP exam without completing any other qualifying courses of study, so that's what I'd do in your shoes, if you are interested in this kind of role.


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## Bupp (Nov 13, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> More like just over a third of that to start, with decent advancement opportunities within the bank, but never, not ever, progressing to $150K within that role - topping out well under that.
> 
> This is a back-office role for someone with a financial planning designation - not a CA. You might *start* there but you would (presumably) move up into an estate planning or tax specialist role.
> 
> BTW, the CA designation would not qualify you for this role - you'd need additional designations. As a CA, though, you can sit the CFP exam without completing any other qualifying courses of study, so that's what I'd do in your shoes, if you are interested in this kind of role.


Moneygal,

Did you read the job posting? This is not a back office job. It is a client facing sales role. This job is essentially to be called in by the financial advisors whenever they have a client with a big sum to invest. The FA handles the day to day stuff and then teams up with this guy when it comes time to bring in significant new business/or babysit an ultrahigh networth client. 

This guy might support 20-30 advisors and be brought in whenever one of them is making an important sales pitch.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I read it. I've worked in those kinds of roles. but not inside a bank. My best guess is $65K to start, topping out at about $85K: that's competitive for that role in the industry. Other incentives beyond salary may be offered. 

If you read it carefully, no specific expertise is required. Instead, this person plays a presentation and liaison function between clients and others clearly identified as experts (i.e., estate planners, taxation, philanthropic group, insurance peeps). The minimum designation that's required is the PFP and the CSC (with CFP identified as an alternate). There are no specific number of years of experience.

As someone who has worked in the investment industry, I can say that directly managing money is the way to make money in that field. Any "supporting" or salaried roles are well-paying, but not *that* well-paying. This is a process and presentation job, not a money management job.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

p.s. $1M in assets is by no means "ultra high net worth" and advisors who actually have UHNW clients will not be working with the person identified in this job posting. 

The $1M threshold is the the amount required to justify the overhead of this person's salary. Clients with less than $1M (unless they hit other targets, such as capacity to rapidly accumulate assets) will not be offered these services.


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## Bupp (Nov 13, 2009)

Ok, I see we are in agreement about what that job entails. 

Agreed that the compensation caps at below 100k.

If you want to make the money you need to work commission.

I miss used the word ultrahigh. I meant that the person doing this job would only have regular contact with the FA's he supports larger clients. However main purpose is to do joint meetings to bring in new assets.


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