# re: another little update on USD DRIP dividends in td rrsp



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

*re: another little update on USD DRIP dividends in td rrsp*

the broker says that the new patch, expected to be in place by 31 december/13, will wash USD DRIP dividends in registered accounts at a mid rate between the buy & sell rates in the spread. Details of each dividend transaction are to appear on statements, the broker says.

such a rate would be identical to, or only a few basis points away from, the spot rate, which in turn forms bank of canada noon rates at midday.

imho it's not possible to get a better exchange rate deal than this.

however, the big green confirms that it will not be exchanging regular USD dividends in registered accounts via this new patch mechanism.

in other words, USD non-drip dividends in tddi registered accounts will still be subject to standard broker FX fees. At tddi, these seem to hover in a 1.25-1.45% range.

one can see where all this is going to lead. TD registered account clients are going to stampede their US holdings into DRIP dividends. Where DRIPs are not presently offered, TD clients are going to ask that they be set up!

may i suggest that TD clients look carefully at all dividend stocks or etfs in all TD registered accounts. Look particularly for the 20 canadian companies that - unknown to most investors - are paying their dividends strictly in US dollars.

later on today, if i have time, i'll republish the list of these companies. Big, important, widely-held public canadian companies are on that list. The likes of potash, agrium, encana, talisman, goldcorp, barrick, magna, thomson reuters, open text are on that list. All of these companies issue dividends in USD only.

these dividends are creating a host of unnecessary foreign exchange fees, because the majority of canadian investors do not yet understand that most brokers are, indeed, charging concealed or partially-concealed FX fees. The problem is found across the board, from registered to cash to margin accounts.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Thanks for the update Humble, I appreciate you keeping us posted!

So, with "big green", do you think it's best to keep US stocks and ETFs DRIPping or not?

Seems USD DRIPping now has a big advantage until they get their friggin' act together and get a USD $$ RRSP.

I'm tempted to move, even with this good news and get another RRSP account. Tired of waiting for TDDI to announce their USD $$$ RRSP.

Is there another thread in here where folks discuss their favourite USD $$$ RRSP? I can't recall. Thanks for that anyone.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

I just finished getting off the phone with another front line rep at TDDI, and was planning to/would have switched on drips in my RSP, but she hadn't heard anything about it yet, so she searched the memo updates and checked with her manager and there was no info available, so I guess I'll be waiting until I hear some kind of an official announcement.

Her speculation was, that because they are currently pouring so much resources into getting real US$ registered accounts up and running, she thought it was unlikely they would put much effort into a temporary patch.

Not to say that humble_pie's sources are wrong at all; this was just the front line rep's (and I assume her manager's) speculation.
Still it was good to hear that it seems they really are still working on getting real US$ RSPs up and running.

What do you think? early 2014? 2015? 2020? How long do you think TDDI can keep on stringing us along? :disillusionment:
I'll hang in there for a while longer I guess :02.47-tranquillity::stupid::uncomfortableness:


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

You sound like me MrPPincer


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

My Own Advisor said:


> You sound like me MrPPincer


sorry to hear that, heh, JK
do you think we're all born suckers or just incredibly patient? :hopelessness:


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## webber22 (Mar 6, 2011)

There's a thread opened up at td.com about the lack of USD RSP. This [email protected] keeps promising until the cows come home 

http://www.td.com/to-our-customers/tdhelps/#psce|cid=871|lid=1|tid=001|vid=b011435f2


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

here's a list of canadian companies that pay dividends in USD.

any investor holding any of these stocks in any type of canadian-dollar account - whether registered or cash or margin - is most likely being charged FX fees on all dividends by the broker, at the point when each USD dividend gets injected into the canadian account.

td registered account holders might wish to examine this list with a view to their rrsps, tfsas, etc. If they are holding any of these stocks in registered accounts, TD is among the brokers that have been charging double FX fees - up to 2.90% - on the dividends.

not all of these canadian companies offer DRIP dividends. But when they do, the coming wash-rate patch for tddi registered accounts will permit spot rate currency conversion with no FX fee on such USD dividends.

(signed)
humble scribe

_
The following companies pay dividends in US dollars only:

Agrium Inc. (AGU)
Barrick Gold Corp. (ABX)
Brookfield Asset Management Inc. (BAM.A)
Brookfield Infrastructure Partners LP (BIP.UN)
Brookfield Office Properties Inc. (BPO)
Brookfield Renewable Energy Partners LP (BEP.UN)
Constellation Software Inc. (CSU)
Encana Corp. (ECA)
Goldcorp Inc. (G)
IAMGOLD Corp. (IMG)
Inmet Mining Corp. (IMN)
Kinross Gold Corp. (K)
Magna International Inc. (MG)
Methanex Corp. (MX)
Open Text Corp. (OTC)
Potash Corp. of Saskatchewan (POT)
Silver Wheaton Corp. (SLW)
Talisman Energy Inc. (TLM)
Thomson Reuters Corp. (TRI)
WaterFurnace Renewable Energy Inc. (WFI)
Yamana Gold Inc. (YRI)_


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

humble_pie, could you clarify, is it expected that TD takes an FX fee on non-DRIP dividends going into an unregistered account too? Is that standard practice at all brokerages?

In my non-registered account I got a USD cash dividend on November 14, comment "CONVERT TO CAD @ 1.03300"
The USD/CAD rate that day ranged from 1.0448 to 1.0522 with an average around 1.048 so it looks like TD took around 1.4% FX fee [within the range you gave]


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

If you're holding a stock that pays US dividends, you should hold it in your US cash account instead of your CAD one. Then they won't be converted @ FX rates. If you hold it on the Canadian side, then indeed, they will charge you FX.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> humble_pie, could you clarify, is it expected that TD takes an FX fee on non-DRIP dividends going into an unregistered account too? Is that standard practice at all brokerages?
> 
> In my non-registered account I got a USD cash dividend on November 14, comment "CONVERT TO CAD @ 1.03300"
> The USD/CAD rate that day ranged from 1.0448 to 1.0522 with an average around 1.048 so it looks like TD took around 1.4% FX fee [within the range you gave]



hi james, i think it's important to keep every detail lined up precisely.

my messages about the new patch were strictly for registered accounts, specifically about USD DRIP dividends in such accounts, where previously the broker had been FXing twice on market drips. May i mention in passing that other brokers are known to be double FXing on USD market drips also, when shares are held in CAD accounts.

TD has said the new patch will not apply to USD non-drip dividends in registered accounts, ie regular cash dividends in reg'd accounts will continue to be subject to the broker's FX fee.

turning now to your case, i am wondering why you would choose to keep a company that is known to pay its dividend in US dollars in a non-registered canadian account?

to solve this problem, investor has to keep such shares in non-registered US account.

this is easy to do at the big green. Just open the US account. Put the proper shares into it. I posted the list upthread.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

FAQs:

- when canadian payors of USD dividends are held in USD non-reg'd accounts in order to avoid broker's FX fees, are such shares subject to US withholding tax? A: no.

- when canadian payors of USD dividends are held in USD non-reg'd accounts, does the investor still receive all of the eligible canadian dividend tax credits? A: yes.

- does the investor have to sell his interlisted shares in USD account? A: no, he can choose which currency according to which currency he needs at the time of sale. If he wishes to sell in CAD, in many cases the broker will have to be asked to manually journal the stock from USD to CAD account. Investor should allow the broker several days to get this job done.


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## PuckiTwo (Oct 26, 2011)

mrPPincer said:


> do you think we're all born suckers or just incredibly patient?


Just admiringly, surprisingly and incredibly patient

Edit: It makes me furious - 9 months ago when we moved our accounts completely to TD we were told that TDW is working on full US$ registered accounts - and "that they would be coming soon". As we didn't have any US and other foreign holdings we started to buy and put them in the RRSPs, only to realize that TDDI obviously has no intention to improve the situation. It's probably far to profitable for them to collect fx fees on the dividends. I am been dragging my feet to move the registered accounts out of TDDI to another brokerage but the more foreign assets we buy the more fees we "donate" to TD.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

humble_pie said:


> hi james, i think it's important to keep every detail lined up precisely.
> 
> my messages about the new patch were strictly for registered accounts, specifically about USD DRIP dividends in such accounts, where previously the broker had been FXing twice on market drips. May i mention in passing that other brokers are known to be double FXing on USD market drips also, when shares are held in CAD accounts.


Good point, my example was unrelated to that.



> turning now to your case, i am wondering why you would choose to keep a company that is known to pay its dividend in US dollars in a non-registered canadian account?
> 
> to solve this problem, investor has to keep such shares in non-registered US account.


OK, I see... I can move it to the US account if I want to avoid the FX.

The company in question is Central Fund of Canada, dual listed. I hold the TSX listed shares in my CAD account, and it pays a tiny annual dividend ($0.01) in USD. I didn't bother moving it to the US account ledger because the dividend is insignificantly small but I just got curious about your FX issue when I saw the forex rate was worse than spot.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

PuckiTwo said:


> ... TD we were told that TDW is working on full US$ registered accounts - and "that they would be coming soon".


In a recent interaction with TD Waterhouse, I yet again asked the status of USD RRSPs. Answer (paraphrased): "We are working on it. yada, yada, yada. We are expecting to offer a USD RRSP in 2015". 

It's adieu for me. I'm moving to probably BMO which is currently offering a $250 bribe.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

CanadianCapitalist said:


> In a recent interaction with TD Waterhouse, I yet again asked the status of USD RRSPs. Answer (paraphrased): "We are working on it. yada, yada, yada. We are expecting to offer a USD RRSP in 2015".


Rob Carrick's column published yesterday:
The best, and cheapest, online brokers in Canada

Here's his blurb on TD Direct Investing:



> The former TD Waterhouse has made zero progress in filling in two gaping holes in its service – personalized account reporting and the lack of U.S.-dollar registered accounts. Are these guys on a technology strike? They don’t even allow clients to send secure e-mails to get administrative questions about their accounts answered. Add high costs to the analysis and you end up with what could be the weakest showing TD has ever had in this ranking. TD still rules in two areas – research and service, thanks to a call centre that operates 24/7 in English, French, Cantonese and Mandarin. Also, TD has really improved its visual presentation of client account holdings. *Footnote: TD suckered me last year in saying U.S.-dollar registered accounts were “coming soon in 2013.” Now, they say they’re on track for a 2014 delivery.*


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

GoldStone said:


> Rob Carrick's column published yesterday:
> The best, and cheapest, online brokers in Canada
> 
> Here's his blurb on TD Direct Investing:


Clearly, TD needs to at least have consistent messaging!


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

CanadianCapitalist said:


> Clearly, TD needs to at least have consistent messaging!


I was told 2014 a few weeks ago. Frustrating, but I'll be staying with TDW.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

- edit -


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

OMG, *all *the discussions about FX conversions from yesterday are _gone_, sob sob


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

oh boy, that was a lot of posts


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Synergy said:


> oh boy, that was a lot of posts



Zeus must have thrown his lightning bolt


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> Zeus must have thrown his lightning bolt


Indeed. I'm sure the topic will surface again!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

CanadianCapitalist said:


> In a recent interaction with TD Waterhouse, I yet again asked the status of USD RRSPs. Answer (paraphrased): "We are working on it. yada, yada, yada. We are expecting to offer a USD RRSP in 2015".
> 
> It's adieu for me. I'm moving to probably BMO which is currently offering a $250 bribe.


looking at article below, looks like BMO is a clear winner form big bank discount brokerages, especially for US$ stocks... I have curently accounts in TDW and Investor Edge.... Investor Egde only wins everyone in lowest fees... Maybe I also should consider start moving accounts from TDW to BMO....
Do you know how much should be your account to get $9.95 per trade and not to pay administration fees?
Also, how is working US$ RRSP in BMO. If for example i'm DRIPping US stock...got in dividends $100US and now stock price is $50US, would I get 2 new shares? or still any fees will be involved?
and....what $250 you are talking about?


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Same, I might move to BMO as well. Especially if I can DRIP US stocks there.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

My Own Advisor said:


> Same, I might move to BMO as well. Especially if I can DRIP US stocks there.


MOA, please publish here if you have any new info.... 
I also want to know if BMO covering transfer fees and if I need to have checking account in BMO too,,,


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## P_I (Dec 2, 2011)

Google has some, but not all, of yesterday's post in their cache, http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...dends-in-td-rrsp?p=207488&hl=en&gl=ca&strip=1. Anyone up to the challenge of cut-and-paste?


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

I think the powers that be at TD have spoken. No free FX conversions...


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Gibor, I will be finding out some details over the next week and let you and CMFers know.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MOA, will be waiting...
just searces BMO Investor line and found that "At this time, US dollar denominated securities held with BMO InvestoLine are not eligible for the Dividend Reinvestment Program. Typically, Canadian securities that are enrolled in the DRIP should be held on the Canadian side of your account." 
I don't like it as well as I DRIP PM, MO, T, COP and some more....

Also, just now was talking with TDW manager and he promissed to give me answers next week...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Sampson said:


> I think the powers that be at TD have spoken. No free FX conversions...


meaning ?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i've had a backup account at bmo for a number of years. They offer all the things that gibor is asking for: they reimburse transfer fees for reasonably-sized accounts; they have $9.95 commish; they might have free BMO etfs (parties would have to check this out); they have a good website that works well, with a nice selection of research tools; excellent trade execution through bmo nesbitt burns.

moving up, on the extra plus side BMO offers: USD rrsp; instant easy 100% online CAD/USD gambitting in all accounts including cash, margin & rrsp; exceptionally pleasant & helpful personnel who have been trained to deliver good service; & a recent promotion that was offering $250 to new clients bringing in new accounts worth more than a certain threshhold (threshhold might have been around $100k but please confirm this with bmo.)


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

oh pie, I know this is a topic true to your heart but what happened to all the allegory. I was just joking that the big green invoked Zeus so they could retract all the hard work you have put in.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> i've had a backup account at bmo for a number of years. They offer all the things that gibor is asking for: )


This is exactly what i want to ask BMO,
1. Who is eligible for $250 
2. If they will cover $135 transfer fee from TD
3. Free BMO ETFs trades (HP thanks for raising this question as I just didn't think about it)
4. Id administration fees are waived for certain threshold.
5. If I can just bring US$ cash (bills) and invest into RRSP as a new contribution in order to use this cash to buy US stocks
6. If I can buy saving account funds (1.25%) like ATL5000 or TDB8150. Does BMO has equvalent fund?
7. If I buy (or sell) same stock multiple time in one day, do I pay 1 fee $9.95 for all trades (like in CM) or 1 fee for every trade.
8. Can I buy third-party GIC online? (I can in CM, but cannot in TDW).
9. ???
Need to think about more questions and will send to BMO....

What othere BMO disadvantages except unability to DRIP US stocks?

What


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

FYI.... just contacted CIBC Investor Edge dictrict sales manager who said that " USD in registered accounts is an important project that is being worked on. It should be implemented within 12 – 24 months. In the meantime your USD trades with your registered accounts can be netted at the end of the trading day by calling Investor’s Edge."


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

gibor said:


> FYI.... just contacted CIBC Investor Edge dictrict sales manager who said that " USD in registered accounts is an important project that is being worked on. It should be implemented within 12 – 24 months. In the meantime your USD trades with your registered accounts can be netted at the end of the trading day by calling Investor’s Edge."


I've been doing this for a while now. They'll let you wash (or net) the proceeds or cost of USD trades into a USD Money Market Fund. And if you buy some shares and sell some shares the same day, you can have then net out a better rate. But in both cases, you do have to call it in to the desk.

And like I've said in the past, why not just offer better FX rates on USD Dividends and conversions. Win win. Customers will be happier with the better fx rates, and no development time to implement a USD RRSP account.


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## Canadian (Sep 19, 2013)

gibor here are answers I know to some of your questions:

1) You must maintain a minimum of $100k net new assets with Investorline for 6 months prior to receiving the $250.

2) They say they offer transfer charge reimbursement - but I can't speak on this from first-hand experience. 

3) Trading commissions are still charged on BMO ETFs. The only types of holdings I'm aware of that don't have trading commissions are mutual funds and GICs. 

4) The $9.95 commissions are offered once one has over $50,000 in assets with BMO Investorline. I'm not aware if administration fees are also waived at that threshold.

5) When you open an Investorline account you get a "branch" account and an "investment" account. They are linked (i.e., deposit cash in branch and you'll see the cash on the investment side the next business day), but branch employees couldn't see what investments are in the account - just the cash. In short - yes you can deposit bills at a BMO branch to a non-reg account, then transfer it to your RRSP online.

6) I don't know the answer to this.

7) I believe it's $9.95 per trade - but it would be great if someone could tell me I'm wrong

8) I don't know the answer to this.

Also, they only DRIP certain Canadian securities (listed here: http://www.bmoinvestorline.com/home/popups/eligible-securities) and from my understanding, they do not currently DRIP US securities. I'm not sure if there is anything in the works for US DRIP - I haven't asked as I'm still accumulating my Canadian portfolio.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Xoron said:


> I've been doing this for a while now. They'll let you wash (or net) the proceeds or cost of USD trades into a USD Money Market Fund. And if you buy some shares and sell some shares the same day, you can have then net out a better rate. But in both cases, you do have to call it in to the desk.
> 
> And like I've said in the past, why not just offer better FX rates on USD Dividends and conversions. Win win. Customers will be happier with the better fx rates, and no development time to implement a USD RRSP account.


Yes , I did it couple of times. but the problem that I needed to call several times, as trader couldn't do it right away and should've call to other department that always busy, do should've call him again in hour or so and so on... so every time it took me 2-3 hours to accomplish.... Another problem that majority of IE traders had no idea what to do when I asked them... transfer me to other senior trader .... I'm still work full time and it's not easy for me to spend so much time with my trading activities during work day 
But even with automatic US$ wash, you have to pay FX on buying/selling US MM. 
I have US$ cash and I just cannot contribute it into my RRSP/LIRA without paying ridiculous FX rate in both TDW and IE.... so may be I need to transfer one of them to BMO.....hate it, as it too much hassle...., but also don't want to pay those ridiculous fees.

This district manager offered me to meet in the branch in beginning of Dec to discuss those issues.... but in the afternoon when I'm actually at work


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Canadian said:


> gibor here are answers I know to some of your questions:
> 
> 
> 5) When you open an Investorline account you get a "branch" account and an "investment" account. They are linked (i.e., deposit cash in branch and you'll see the cash on the investment side the next business day), but branch employees couldn't see what investments are in the account - just the cash. In short - yes you can deposit bills at a BMO branch to a non-reg account, then transfer it to your RRSP online.
> ...


Thanks for your answers..... do you know if there is any fees for branch account ? do I need to maintain specific threshold?


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

gibor said:


> Yes , I did it couple of times. but the problem that I needed to call several times, as trader couldn't do it right away and should've call to other department that always busy, do should've call him again in hour or so and so on... so every time it took me 2-3 hours to accomplish.... Another problem that majority of IE traders had no idea what to do when I asked them... transfer me to other senior trader .... I'm still work full time and it's not easy for me to spend so much time with my trading activities during work day


I've never had this happen to me. I only do it a few times a year, but I've always been able to get to a trader on the first call. I'm surprised to see you've had this experience.



gibor said:


> But even with automatic US$ wash, you have to pay FX on buying/selling US MM.
> I have US$ cash and I just cannot contribute it into my RRSP/LIRA without paying ridiculous FX rate in both TDW and IE.... so may be I need to transfer one of them to BMO.....hate it, as it too much hassle...., but also don't want to pay those ridiculous fees.


I just bought DLU. Then I called them to do the journal / sell / buy the Money Market MF. So I've got a USD (*CIBC US$ MONEY MARKET FUND (483)*) fund sitting in my account waiting for me to wash sells into it, and wash buys out of it. But again, still requires a call in. Automatic washing would be nice.

As for USD dividends, no dice on that one. They told me the Netting and Washing into the MF is a manual process. Trying to get my USD dividends into my USD MF would require a trader to be watching my account all the time for and dividends. Not going to happen. :distress: Just give us better FX rates dammit. Problem solved.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Xoron said:


> I've never had this happen to me. I only do it a few times a year, but I've always been able to get to a trader on the first call. I'm surprised to see you've had this experience.


I also doing it just a few times per year, in mojority of the cases I buy/sell amounts in 3-4K range, so just didn't want to bother... now when our company blocked all financial sides, not sure if I able to do it at all... When you call trader, how you call this operation...when I was asking to "wash US$" (this how I tell to TDW trader and they understand it) CIBC traders couldn't understand what I want to do...



> I just bought DLU. Then I called them to do the journal / sell / buy the Money Market MF. So I've got a USD (*CIBC US$ MONEY MARKET FUND (483)*) fund sitting in my account waiting for me to wash sells into it, and wash buys out of it. But again, still requires a call in. Automatic washing would be nice.
> 
> As for USD dividends, no dice on that one. They told me the Netting and Washing into the MF is a manual process. Trying to get my USD dividends into my USD MF would require a trader to be watching my account all the time for and dividends. Not going to happen. :distress: Just give us better FX rates dammit. Problem solved.


Did you do it on CASH or registered account? Any difference?
Last time I sold AAPL and called them to freeze FX rate and move all proceeds to US MM fund.... So, it took me like 20 min to get trader, than 20 min to explain what I want, they about half ah hour I was waiting on the line when trader was calling some other department (forgot this department name), than trader told me that he cannot reach this department and I he will do everything and I can call in 1-2 hours to make sure.... when I called back, there was obviuosly another trader who I statred to explain what should be done on my account and so on... at the end they did waht I asked for, but they was off by couple of $ from my calculation what I should get on US MM... and I just didn't bother to call back for clarification , as I really got tired from all those called...
When I bought another US$ stock, I had another problem...my order was rejected (and not online , but after 15-20min) for NSF, as I had enough money in US MM, but didn't have enough in Canadian cash. When I called them and ask to sumbit order manually, they said that cannot do it any more and than I should first place sell on ATL5000 (that also took 15 min to acknowledge)! WHen I ask trader, who I can cancel ATL5000 sel if my stock order won't get executed, he told that I need to call 3.45pm latest to ask canceling ATL5000 sell (and I actually did it once or twice).
Finally, when my order was executed , I need to call again and ask to tkae $ from US MM for this buy.... Also was tracking this all way, as wasn't sure that they will do what I asked for....
SO, all this process too robust, too annoying and too time consuming... 

Actually, what pissing me off even more, even for Canadian stock purchase I need to make sure that I have enough Cash or placed redemption on ATL5000 or Can MM and wait sometimes half an hour when this order will be acknowleged!
In TDW everything is much simplier, as their software recognizes that I hold Can MM or TDB8150 and always will allow me to place trade and in case of NSF it will give me error right away and not after 15-20 minutes


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## Canadian (Sep 19, 2013)

If you're just depositing cash in the branch account there won't be any fees. You might get into transaction fees if you start operating the branch account like an every day banking account though.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Canadian said:


> If you're just depositing cash in the branch account there won't be any fees. You might get into transaction fees if you start operating the branch account like an every day banking account though.


Yes, but I need tranfer money from branch account to Investor Line account... I know in my current bank you need to keep threshold of $1000 than there is no any fees for holdingthis account (actually because we have stuff account we don't pay any fees never)


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## Canadian (Sep 19, 2013)

gibor said:


> Yes, but I need tranfer money from branch account to Investor Line account... I know in my current bank you need to keep threshold of $1000 than there is no any fees for holdingthis account (actually because we have stuff account we don't pay any fees never)


The branch Investorline account is linked to the non-reg investment account. If you deposit cash on a Monday, you just need to wait until Tuesday morning and you'll see the cash in the non-reg investment account. Then you make the RRSP contribution. You don't need to do any transferring, except for the RRSP contribution. The branch/non-reg investment account sounds weird but I guess that's their way of linking the two interfaces.


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

gibor said:


> I also doing it just a few times per year, in mojority of the cases I buy/sell amounts in 3-4K range, so just didn't want to bother... now when our company blocked all financial sides, not sure if I able to do it at all... When you call trader, how you call this operation...when I was asking to "wash US$" (this how I tell to TDW trader and they understand it) CIBC traders couldn't understand what I want to do...


The CIBC lingo for this is FX Netting. You net the sale of one USD stock into the purchase of another USD stock. Provided they are both done on the same day, they'll net the FX rates (ie they calculate and give you the same rate on both the buy and sell). 



gibor said:


> Did you do it on CASH or registered account? Any difference?


I've only ever done the FX netting in my RRSP account. I only recently purchased the USD MF. I haven't yet to try using it to make / redeem USD purchases. 




gibor said:


> Last time I sold AAPL
> .
> .
> .
> SO, all this process too robust, too annoying and too time consuming...


I so agree with you. My time is wasted, CIBC's time is wasted, just so they can make a few extra $$$ on my trades. What a waste. 

Again, I haven't actually tried using my USD MF to wash into / out of for my USD trades yet. But my plan is to:
1. Call into CIBC and ask to speak to a trader
2. Explain to the trader what I'm trying to do. Hopefully that will be a quick conversation.
3. Buy my stocks online and have them sell an appropriate amount of MF to cover the buy (or to accept the access cash).

The thing is, I'm normally selling $x of shares in a day and buying the same $x of shares of different stocks. So this isn't net net purchases, but moving between stocks. 

If I was buying net new all the time, I expect I'd have to use DLU / journal to DLU/U, Sell and purchase the USD MF.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

xoron, thankx for showing how mono-currency all-CAD rrsps are not only a TD problem.

all brokers using ISM as a legacy mainframe have this problem. They all have CAD-only registered accounts. Not one has ever succeeded in building a dual-currency CAD/USD rrsp on ISM.

the minority of brokers using *other* mainframes have been successful. BMO & RY use ADP; apparently questrade built its own.

for years now, TD has been out in front of the ISM/CAD pack in developing workarounds for rrsp. For example, none of the "phoning" described by xoron & gibor at CIBC is necessary. TD is doing everything in what they call an autowash procedure.

the remaining hurdles at TD are USD dividends coming into TD rrsp & tfsa. I did succeed - somehow - in persuading them to wash USD DRIP dividends via a patch that is to go into effect at the end of december/13. We'll have to see what happens; the first DRIP dividends to wash under the new patch will not appear until january or february at the earliest.

as for the remainder of USD dividends arriving in rrsp & tfsa at the big green, i did ask them - as persuasively as i could - to wash all dividends with the same patch. That way, all USD dividends would be converted at spot rates, ie highly favourable rates. At TD, broker gouging on USD dividends in rrsp would cease.

it would be a public relations victory, i coaxed them. But the request fell on deaf ears. Only the DRIPs, they replied.

OK something is better than nothing, i thought to myself. It's incredibly difficult to get a bureaucracy to budge at all, i thought.

if all this is true, ie if the patch works, if FX fees on USD DRIP dividends in rrsp become a faint echo of history, then all committed TDers should go for DRIPs in rrsp as much as possible. However, may i caution *not* to convert yet. It's necessary to watch & see exactly what they do. TD has a long history of disappoint.

of course, the exit door is always open. It's an easy walk over to bmo, questrade, roybank.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Xoron said:


> I've only ever done the FX netting in my RRSP account. I only recently purchased the USD MF. I haven't yet to try using it to make / redeem USD purchases.


So, you have 2 options here:
- buy or sell US stock and moved $ to or from US MM
- sell US stock and buy another US stock
I did both by calling...and in 2nd scenario it took even more time wates  





> I so agree with you. My time is wasted, CIBC's time is wasted, just so they can make a few extra $$$ on my trades. What a waste.


Don't think CIBC is really cares, as very small number of investor will call and ask for US$ wash. Generally, retail investing it's not top CIBC priority by far 



> Again, I haven't actually tried using my USD MF to wash into / out of for my USD trades yet. But my plan is to:
> 1. Call into CIBC and ask to speak to a trader
> 2. Explain to the trader what I'm trying to do. Hopefully that will be a quick conversation.
> 3. Buy my stocks online and have them sell an appropriate amount of MF to cover the buy (or to accept the access cash).
> ...


Why would you call trader before you place order online? When you buy online and call again it won't be easy to get exactly same trader, and to other trader you need to explain everything from scratch.... 



> If I was buying net new all the time, I expect I'd have to use DLU / journal to DLU/U, Sell and purchase the USD MF.


I never use DLU..... I used several times TDW to buy TD on TSX and sell TD on NYSE, all proceeds from sell went directly to US MM... didn't try to buy/sell interlisted stocks in CIBC yet

Xoron, I'd ask you to contact your District manager and express your concer....more investors will do it, more likely it will be done


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Canadian said:


> The branch Investorline account is linked to the non-reg investment account. If you deposit cash on a Monday, you just need to wait until Tuesday morning and you'll see the cash in the non-reg investment account. Then you make the RRSP contribution. You don't need to do any transferring, except for the RRSP contribution. The branch/non-reg investment account sounds weird but I guess that's their way of linking the two interfaces.


From what i understand , I need to have 2 non-reg branch accounts, one for CAD and one for USD?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> all brokers using ISM as a legacy mainframe have this problem. They all have CAD-only registered accounts. Not one has ever succeeded in building a dual-currency CAD/USD rrsp on ISM.


HP, so I understand that for now TDW will be doing only DRIP using "wash"? And if I don't have enough $ to DRIP one share , I still will be charged ridiculous FX rate? AND , as an example , if I got 100 US$ dividend , I can DRIP only 1 share for $60 , for remaining $40 US again I will be paying FX rate?

Question, if they intend, to introduce similar to BMO ability to operate with US$ in registered accounts? Any info on it?


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## Canadian (Sep 19, 2013)

gibor said:


> From what i understand , I need to have 2 non-reg branch accounts, one for CAD and one for USD?


That's right, but they both feed into 1 investment account. When you purchase something you select from which exchange and currency - i.e., in the 1 investment account you will have CAD and USD investments in their respective currencies.

I apologize if I'm not explaining this well. If someone else here uses Investorline, feel free to jump in - or if you have other questions and want to contact Investorline, they might do a better job describing the specifics (and also any fees).


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## BigMFfan (Feb 23, 2013)

Canadian said:


> That's right, but they both feed into 1 investment account. When you purchase something you select from which exchange and currency - i.e., in the 1 investment account you will have CAD and USD investments in their respective currencies.
> 
> I apologize if I'm not explaining this well. If someone else here uses Investorline, feel free to jump in - or if you have other questions and want to contact Investorline, they might do a better job describing the specifics (and also any fees).


I'm an Investorline customer too. What you've said is true. The C$ and US$ cash in your non-registered account show up on your list of BMO bank accounts (if they're set-up/linked properly). You can transfer money easily in and out of these accounts to other BMO bank accounts, or even make cash deposits/withdrawals directly.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Just was curious how much I lost in 1 year for US dividends FX dividends conversion.....
I'm receiving this year total $3,800 in US dividends ($1,200 from TDW and $2,600 from CM - but it's not really matters as difference between FX on small amounts TDW and CM just couple of $).
As a template I took example from article on this thread (with 100 shares on Microsoft).
So, I got that on FX rate I lost about $55 in year (comparing to BMO).
P.S. Because I DRIPed about $1,700 from total amount, FX will be more, but I cannot DRIP US div in BMO at all)


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

I spoke yesterday with one on TDW managers who said that RRSP US accounts (like in BMO IL) shouldbe available in TDW aroung June 2014.... I hardly beleive it... 
HP, do you have any new info?


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

A very timely post by Canadian Couch Potato on getting USD into your registered accounts

http://canadiancouchpotato.com/2013...m_campaign=norberts-gambit-the-complete-guide

Gibor, they even have an article on doing it with CIBC. Pretty much exactly what I had to do. Only difference is that I moved my USD into a USD Money Market Mutual Fund (for future funding of USD transactions).


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Xoron said:


> A very timely post by Canadian Couch Potato on getting USD into your registered accounts
> 
> http://canadiancouchpotato.com/2013...m_campaign=norberts-gambit-the-complete-guide
> 
> Gibor, they even have an article on doing it with CIBC. Pretty much exactly what I had to do. Only difference is that I moved my USD into a USD Money Market Mutual Fund (for future funding of USD transactions).



What is the difference in using DLR/DLR.U over buying interlisted stock on TSX and seeling right away this stock on NYSE? If you select liquid stock like TD and doing both transactions in quite afternoon time, it should work fine.
In TDW - your TD:NYSE stock sell will go directly to US MM (without calling).
In CIBC - you need to call rep for wash/netting and ask move proceed from your sale to US MM *"freeze FX rate).


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

gibor said:


> What is the difference in using DLR/DLR.U over buying interlisted stock on TSX and seeling right away this stock on NYSE? If you select liquid stock like TD and doing both transactions in quite afternoon time, it should work fine.
> In TDW - your TD:NYSE stock sell will go directly to US MM (without calling).
> In CIBC - you need to call rep for wash/netting and ask move proceed from your sale to US MM *"freeze FX rate).


It would work exactly the same way. I don't understand exactly the details, but I've read that DLR is a better choice because it locks in the rate immediately. There is no (or maybe very little) market risk when using DLR vs an interlisted stock.

But yes, any TSX / NYSE stock should work. Maybe BB/BBRY would be a good choice (kidding of course) :tongue-new:


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

no, DLR is not necessarily a better choice. There's a spread built into the DLRs for horizons, the etf provider.

also, the DLRs don't work in reverse, ie they don't work so well going from USD to CAD. This is because only DLR.U is pegged. 

the DLRs were essentially created because the vast majority of brokers, for one reason or another, do not have trading platforms that allow instant, seamless gambitting of interlisted canadian stocks.

many brokers have delays of up to several days before they can - or will - journal toronto-bought stock over to the USD side of an account. The DLRs were created so that investors gambitting CAD into USD would have some assurance of a pegged exchange rate, even if they had to wait 3-5 days for a journal to be completed.

broker platforms that *do* gambit instantly, seamlessly, are: BMO all accounts, RYbank all accounts, TDDI rrsp & tfsa only.

other brokers plus tddi cash & margin accounts require the client to phone a licensed representative for an instant sell side of a gambit pair. This usually means a higher agent-handled phone commish. Otherwise the gambit trader has to wait the requisite number of days for the journal. With ordinary carrier stocks like TD or RY, the delay means a high degree of risk. The DLRs mean that the risk is carefully controlled.

gibor i believe you gambit in registered accounts only? this is the reason why your personal experience has been instant & seamless. If you were to try instant gambits in non-registered accounts at tddi, the web platform would refuse the sell side. Only an agent could handle the sell order. So please don't imagine that other folks are in the same position as yourself; probably the majority are gambitting in non-registered accounts & all these folks have to deal with these problems of delay or higher commish.


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

Check this out. I was playing around in my CIBC account (RRSP) on the transaction page. I now have the option to sell into a USD RRSP account









I guess CIBC is closer than I thought on getting the USD RRSP accounts going. Not exactly sure what this means. I guess it's time to call them up to find out what's going on.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> gibor i believe you gambit in registered accounts only? this is the reason why your personal experience has been instant & seamless. If you were to try instant gambits in non-registered accounts at tddi, the web platform would refuse the sell side. Only an agent could handle the sell order. So please don't imagine that other folks are in the same position as yourself; probably the majority are gambitting in non-registered accounts & all these folks have to deal with these problems of delay or higher commish.


that's right HP, I hold CASH in GIC , HISA etc for expences like travel etc....
Have enough room in registerd accounts to play with....
Didn't know that cash acoounts are different from gambit perspective....

lONG TIME AGO WAS NENTIONING TO ONE OF 
traders about DLR/DLR.U - and he didn't have a clue about it...
Also, interlisted stock are more straight forward, was suspecting that Horizons have some hidden charges on those ETFs


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

gibor it's useless these days to discuss complicated ideas with a broker rep at tddi. Now more than ever. Top management has recently disbanded the PA teams with all the experienced reps. Questions now go to mostly-rookies. The result is farcical.

did ya'll see larry's account of when he tried a large gambit trade in td non-reg'd account a week or 2 ago? his post was lost in the reformat.

his first attempt at the big green, he reached a rookie agent who evidently had a temper tantrum. She told him his currency arbitrage gambit trade was ILLEGAL, then she hung up on him.

larry wisely waited 10 mins, then phoned again. This time he stumbled upon a highly experienced reprentative who stick-handled his gambit trade like gossamer silk, then offered him web commish to make up for the injury inflicted by the rookie.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Xoron said:


> Check this out. I was playing around in my CIBC account (RRSP) on the transaction page. I now have the option to sell into a USD RRSP account


wow
let's hear more about this?


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Xoron said:


> I guess CIBC is closer than I thought on getting the USD RRSP accounts going.


No need to get too excited about it yet. 

I noticed that option weeks ago, but as u know, it's functionless.

The word is that they are still a year to two away; been told that since 2009.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Toronto.gal said:


> No need to get too excited about it yet.
> 
> I noticed that option weeks ago, but as u know, it's functionless.
> 
> The word is that they are still a year to two away; been told that since 2009.


from 12 to 24 months - this exact answer I got from GTA West district manager...


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> No need to get too excited about it yet.
> 
> I noticed that option weeks ago, but as u know, it's functionless.
> 
> The word is that they are still a year to two away; been told that since 2009.


Yeah, essentially useless, as T.gal says. Got all excited there for a minute :rolleyes2:


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

But I did confirm that I can buy / sell USD stocks in my RRSP myself. Then call into a trader by 3:30pm EST to have the trades netted, and the excess (or short) USD from the trades washed into (out of) the Money Market Mutual Fund.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Xoron said:


> But I did confirm that I can buy / sell USD stocks in my RRSP myself. Then call into a trader by 3:30pm EST to have the trades netted, and the excess (or short) USD from the trades washed into (out of) the Money Market Mutual Fund.


Yes, but the problem that you need to call and it can take significant time if you call around 3pm...Also, i'm not clear what happens if you buy stock 3.30pm or after????


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Who is famililiar with DLR/DLR.U gambit in TDW for RRSP. Do I need to call rep or DLR.U sell will automatically go to US MM (how it's done with interlisted stocks)?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

gibor said:


> 1. Who is famililiar with DLR/DLR.U gambit in TDW for RRSP.
> 
> 2. Do I need to call rep or DLR.U sell will automatically go to US MM (how it's done with interlisted stocks)?



2. (this is reverse order) if you've set up autowash in tddi rrsp, then sale proceeds from DLR.U should wash autmatically into US MMF.

1. why would anyone want to trade the DLRs in TD RRSP? the tddi platform for rrsp already supports instant, seamless online gambits. Client can use any carrier stock including the DLRs. 

to some gambit traders, buying DLR & selling DLR.U has an advantage that offsets the slight extra cost. The advantage is that DLR.U is pegged, therefore the exchange rate that client will obtain is set when he first buys DLR. Notice that this benefit does not work in reverse, since only DLR.U is pegged, ie the client going from USD to CAD via the DLRs will be open to exchange rate fluctuation just as much as with TD or RY shares.

in fact, DLR markets might be more challenging than these 2 bank stocks because less liquid.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> 2. (this is reverse order) if you've set up autowash in tddi rrsp, then sale proceeds from DLR.U should wash autmatically into US MMF.
> 
> 1. why would anyone want to trade the DLRs in TD RRSP? the tddi platform for rrsp already supports instant, seamless online gambits. Client can use any carrier stock including the DLRs.


Because in those articles from CC , they advise to gambit DLR/DLR.U within RRSP....just was curious


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

gibor you know how meticulous CC always is. Any suggestions about using the DLRs to gambit in rrsp would have included extremely precise applications.

bref, one would never say something as general as advise-go-gambit-DLRs-within-all-rrsp-etc.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

gibor said:


> Because in those articles from CC , they advise to gambit DLR/DLR.U within RRSP....just was curious


I've never done gambitting with DLR/DLR.U in a RRSP myself. I don't recall ever recommending this. Why would you? You can already instant gambit inter-listed stocks like TD much cheaply. (Remember that DLR/DLR.U spread is at least 2 cents per share on a $10 stock. TD spread is typically less than 2 cents per share on a $90 stock). 

DLR/DLR.U is used for a very specific purpose -- exchanging CAD into USD cheaply in an investment account at a broker like TDDI.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

CanadianCapitalist said:


> I've never done gambitting with DLR/DLR.U in a RRSP myself. I don't recall ever recommending this. Why would you? You can already instant gambit inter-listed stocks like TD much cheaply. (Remember that DLR/DLR.U spread is at least 2 cents per share on a $10 stock. TD spread is typically less than 2 cents per share on a $90 stock).
> 
> DLR/DLR.U is used for a very specific purpose -- exchanging CAD into USD cheaply in an investment account at a broker like TDDI.


Nor really you  The links to documents you provided  Sorry for confusion


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Today got email from TDDI manager that :
"_on November 29th we launched the ability to have a DRIP for US dividends so that there is not a currency conversion rate charged. Please see the note below:

Dividend Reinvestment Plan (DRIP) FX Auto Wash Program: New program created to ensure clients do not incur a currency conversion for U.S. dividends reinvested in Registered Plan accounts. The service is provided automatically, and clients do not need to call our ISCs to register._

Can anyone who has any US DRIP after Nov 29 to confirm?


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## pgicante (Apr 19, 2009)

gibor said:


> Today got email from TDDI manager that :
> "_on November 29th we launched the ability to have a DRIP for US dividends so that there is not a currency conversion rate charged. Please see the note below:
> 
> Dividend Reinvestment Plan (DRIP) FX Auto Wash Program: New program created to ensure clients do not incur a currency conversion for U.S. dividends reinvested in Registered Plan accounts. The service is provided automatically, and clients do not need to call our ISCs to register._
> ...


Gibor,

My DRIP for the Vanguard FTSE Emerging Market (VWO) was processed on Dec 27th in my RRSP with no additional currency conversion rate charge

Regards,
Phil


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Thank you for info


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## Coolstar1979 (Sep 18, 2018)

Hi I’m new to investing. Recently I have bought some US stocks in my TFSA with RBC DI in CAD. The US stock does distribute Div. In USD, and I have DRIP set up with that tfsa. The stock show in my Canadian holding in CAD. My question is, when it pay out div. Is it in USD and if it does do they covert to CAD then take 15% for holding tax and plus the conversion fee before it drip. ?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Coolstar1979 said:


> Hi I’m new to investing. Recently I have bought some US stocks in my TFSA with RBC DI in CAD. The US stock does distribute Div. In USD, and I have DRIP set up with that tfsa. The stock show in my Canadian holding in CAD. My question is, when it pay out div. Is it in USD and if it does do they covert to CAD then take 15% for holding tax and plus the conversion fee before it drip. ?



cool it's possible that you have got a couple details just a tiny bit mixed up ^^

nothing big, the good news is that you have established a TFSA & you have bought a stock that you like in it

would you be able to mention which US stock & then we could see about the tiny details

.


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