# Low Foreign Transaction Fee Services



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm compiling a short list of services with low foreign transaction fees and negligible monthly/annual fees as I live and work often outside of Canada. Please share your data points/services and I'll edit them in

Exchange services:

Everforex - 0.12% cost vs spot
Transferwise - 0.5% cost vs spot, borderless account, debit mastercard coming soon
XE - 1.36% cost vs spot, slightly better rates above $1000
Interactive Brokers - requires $100k min balance or min $10 USD/month
Knightsbridge

Canadian based cards:

Tangerine debit - 2.5% and $0 ATM on Global alliance
BRIM mastercard - 0% to be confirmed, not using mastercard rate, no fees (rewards so net positive foreign transactions?)
Home Trust visa - 0.43%* (1% rewards so net positive foreign transactions)
Stack pre-paid mastercard - 0.27% no ATM fees, no credit history required (no rewards)
MogoCard pre-paid visa - 0.43%* $3 ATM fee, no credit history required (no rewards)

USA based cards:

TD Bank N.A. debit visa - 0.43%* no monthly fees with min balance
TD Bank N.A. visa - 0.43%* no annual fees (1% cash back so net positive foreign transactions)
PayPal mastercard - 0.27%** (2% rewards so net positive foreign transactions)
Amazon visa - 0.43%* no annual fees (1-5% rewards so net positive foreign transactions) requires 1-2 years US credit history
Transferwise pre-paid debit mastercard - 0.27%** debit mastercard up to £200, 2% after? ability to load foreign currency?

Visa/Mastercard exchange rates vary by currency
*Visa USD -> CAD is an average of ~0.43%
**Mastercard USD -> CAD is an average of ~0.27%


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Stack prepaid mastercard has 0 FX (aside from the usual MC vig) and 0 ATM fees. getstack.ca .


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## BC Eddie (Feb 2, 2014)

Can I suggest you add any bonus fees for all methods that have it? For example, Home Trust and Brim, just to name a couple, pay 1% bonus which some of the other methods would not. Just so you are comparing apples with apples.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Why did you remove the Rogers MC?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We did several foreign transactions on our Home Visa card this past week. US and Thailand. 

All four came across at a premium between .5 and 1 percent over the xe.com rate. 

Not complaining at all. Certainly better than our other cards. But, when we used our previous Marriott Chase Bank Visa card our transactions were usually coming through correct to the third or second decimal! Not a big deal. We have a fair amount of foreign travel lined up. Still need to check out the cash advance situation on Home. A friend of mine seemed to imply that TD had a a similar card however I have not followed that up.

Some of it could be attributable to timing-difference between the purchase and the processing. Charges and payments on Home seem to take a day, sometimes two longer to post and to move from pending to actual than they do on other cards.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Spudd said:


> Why did you remove the Rogers MC?


I was trying to keep the list short but I can put it back. Is the edit button gone for everyone?



ian said:


> All four came across at a premium between .5 and 1 percent over the xe.com rate.


Maybe they aren't using Visa's rates? Probably need more data points to determine. I read that different currencies get different rates too


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## BC Eddie (Feb 2, 2014)

Edit was there for me a few days ago. I think it disappears from a specific post after a while though, i.e., there is a window of time to edit.
a new post


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## snowbeavers (Mar 19, 2013)

Capital One (US)= 0% foreign transaction fee (and internet exchange rates) + 2.5% redemption...FTW


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Thanks. Can't seem to edit the first post anymore

I've applied up for the PayPal mc, was denied for the amazon visa


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Here is what to expect from a foreign visa transaction-with or without the 2.5 percent adder that most bank cards add. Tested it this morning on a weekend transaction. It appears to be accurate.

https://usa.visa.com/support/consumer/travel-support/exchange-rate-calculator.html


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

ian said:


> Here is what to expect from a foreign visa transaction-with or without the 2.5 percent adder that most bank cards add. Tested it this morning on a weekend transaction. It appears to be accurate.
> 
> https://usa.visa.com/support/consumer/travel-support/exchange-rate-calculator.html




interesting. I get a tiny FX variation with this ^^ calculator

visa calc said 1 USD @ .77325 with rate set at 0%
xe dot com said 1 USD @ .77269

we should remember that xe dot com is the median spot rate, not the most recent transaction, so there will always be a few basis points clustered around the so-called spot


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Agree. I always looked at xe.com. But the Visa website is much more accurate in terms of comparing a Visa fx transaction to the settlement amount on the statement.

I went back and tested a few of our foreign transactions with this web site. Seems to me that Home Trust is passing foreign Visa transactions through with no mark up. Just as they advertise. Correct to the third decimal is just fine with me.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

The Mogo card is now 1.5% cashback (.5% net on fx) I can't edit the original post anymore

I was also denied for the PayPal card due to short credit history


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> I can't edit the original post anymore



newish forum rules - you can guess why

a party creating/maintaining a resource list or table would have to retain & update the document on his own device, then post an updated version from time to time


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

ian said:


> Here is what to expect from a foreign visa transaction-with or without the 2.5 percent adder that most bank cards add. Tested it this morning on a weekend transaction. It appears to be accurate.
> 
> https://usa.visa.com/support/consumer/travel-support/exchange-rate-calculator.html


Seems that site provides an accurate estimate of what you will be charged on your VISA card. However, compared with XE rate, we have been charged 0.36% more (2.86%) That is for just one data point so far. Looks like VISA uses just one FX rate for the day? While XE varies. But even still the VISA rate is quite a bit worse than XE regardless of time of day.

We have 3 months to collect more data points!


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## l1quidfinance (Mar 17, 2017)

It doesn't look like the Mogo card can beconsidered for this 

We will convert any transactions made in a foreign currency to Canadian dollars using a Visa conversion rate in effect on the day the transaction is posted to your Mogo Platinum Prepaid Visa card. The Visa conversion rate in effect on the posting date may differ from the rate in effect on the date of the transaction. Currently, the Visa conversion rate is the rate we pay to Visa plus a foreign exchange service charge of 2.5%.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm waiting for some transactions to fully post on the Home Trust Preferred, but the first few numbers I'm seeing are: -0.25%, +0.52%, +0.28% or averaging 0.18% higher than the real-time rate I got from XE. But I'm collecting more data points; I'll share the result.

This is remarkably close to spot market (xe.com) so far. There clearly is no significant exchange fee. Since I'm writing down the real time FX rate, there's naturally going to be some difference. The rate change between time of transaction & posting is quite random, over time the average of these measurements should show the true FX cost, combined visa & HT.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Yes we found that with amazon.ca Chase card so hopefully you can prove it with HT!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> I'm waiting for some transactions to fully post on the Home Trust Preferred, but the first few numbers I'm seeing are: -0.25%, +0.52%, +0.28% or averaging 0.18% higher than the real-time rate I got from XE. But I'm collecting more data points; I'll share the result.
> 
> This is remarkably close to spot market (xe.com) so far. There clearly is no significant exchange fee. Since I'm writing down the real time FX rate, there's naturally going to be some difference. The rate change between time of transaction & posting is quite random, over time the average of these measurements should show the true FX cost, combined visa & HT.




this forum is doing real pioneering work in discovering the next wave of zero FX fee credit cards. Just like this forum did pioneering work in reviving currency gambit trading, starting in 2010. Pioneering work also in preventing broker FX fees on USD dividends paid by canadian companies, starting in 2012.

what would be useful is a comparative table showing all the known zero FX cards to date. Some of these are FX-fee-with-high-cashback-that-offsets-FX-fee. Of these latter, most are general fee cards to begin with. A useful table would have enough columns to show these kinds of details.

such a table should also show whether credit card includes rental car insurance. Also, is a particular card accepted at all gas stations & hotels, in what countries. It might not be possible to present all this information without creating a spreadsheet wide enough to serve as wrapping paper if printed; however there could be a general "Remarks" column.

jas4 you're so good at tables, might you consider taking this task on? at the beginning it will require quite a lot of updates, as new data flows in from the handful of participants here.

as jas4beach knows as moderator, it's not possible to update/edit an existing post after a few days have passed. This means that the cmffer who undertakes the master table responsibility has to maintain the updatable version on his own device, then post an updated copy from time to time. What would happen with a sticky, would the original sticky post be frozen also? how to handle this particular problem? perhaps the first sticky could introduce the general topic & promise that updates will follow, then refer readers to look on the thread for the latest version?


PS changing the topic slightly: existing stickies could use a good spring cleaning. A real Marie Kondo toss-useless-outdated-stickies tidyup.


.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

The figures I posted in #15 above were before being posted and proved inaccurate. They were adjusted once posted. The two posted so far were 1.002 x the rate XE posts for the day. Close enough. This with Scotia Momentum Infinite cashback VISA card. Looks like we would get about 1.64% cashback for groceries and gas when in USA. No big deal really - we spend enough money on other things! FX charges are peanuts.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> this forum is doing real pioneering work in discovering the next wave of zero FX fee credit cards. Just like this forum did pioneering work in reviving currency gambit trading, starting in 2010. Pioneering work also in preventing broker FX fees on USD dividends paid by canadian companies, starting in 2012.
> 
> what would be useful is a comparative table showing all the known zero FX cards to date. Some of these are FX-fee-with-high-cashback-that-offsets-FX-fee. Of these latter, most are general fee cards to begin with. A useful table would have enough columns to show these kinds of details.
> 
> ...


The problem with trying to maintain such a list is that it is just as likely to be out of date on any given date as it is to be accurate. Someone would have to be spending an inordinate amount of time checking what is available constantly. One such site that I know of, exists in the UK. That site is Moneysavingexpert. It started out as just a guy offering 'money saving' advice including when travelling and ended up as a big business. https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/site/about-the-site/

But I emphasize, it takes a lot of ongoing research to keep it up to date. I know of no equivalent site for Canada. In the USA the best is probably Nerdwallet.

I don't see it as something someone in a forum such as this one should be being asked to take on unless that person wants to start a business. As a long time user of moneysavingexpert myself and suggesting Brits look at it, I can tell you that the 'best' cards to have, change almost monthly on that site. 

What I do think would be a good sticky for a forum like this one, is a clear, simple explanation of what FX fees are all about and who should be concerned with them. As well as why should NOT be concerned. Along with an explanation of all other types of cards like, airmiles, cash back, card perks like rental car insurance, roadside assistance, etc.

For example, if you vacation once a year for 2 weeks, you really do not need to be looking for a no FX fee card, you would be far better off looking for a good 'cash back' type card. So a sticky thread that outlined clearly and concisely the differences of ALL kinds of credit cards and left the final research as to the best available at a given point in time up to the reader.

No offense, but anyone telling me what card they are using is probably telling me about a card they decided on 6 or more months ago. If I am looking for a new card today, I don't want to hear from anyone who did the research any farther back in time than last week.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

agent99 said:


> FX charges are peanuts.


Wouldn't that depend on how much money one spends in other currencies



Longtimeago said:


> The problem with trying to maintain such a list is that it is just as likely to be out of date on any given date as it is to be accurate. Someone would have to be spending an inordinate amount of time checking what is available constantly. One such site that I know of, exists in the UK. That site is Moneysavingexpert.


Websites and blogs maintained by one person dreaming of ad revenue income are pretty much being replaced by crowd sourced wiki style sites. Other forums have a "summary" post under the OP for this reason or a wiki/shared document



> For example, if you vacation once a year for 2 weeks, you really do not need to be looking for a no FX fee card, you would be far better off looking for a good 'cash back' type card. So a sticky thread that outlined clearly and concisely the differences of ALL kinds of credit cards and left the final research as to the best available at a given point in time up to the reader.


Credit card sites exist ad naseum already for people looking for the typical rewards card. I am spending and earning mostly in foreign currency not 1 or 2 weeks so I am specially looking for low FX cards


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The problem with Wiki style information m3s is that they are simply not reliable. On this subject of cards and FX costs, I have seen countless examples of incorrect or misleading information being posted in various travel forums. A lot of people THINK they know about something but sometimes what they THINK is the case simply isn't. So you get conflicting information which in effect makes it all useless since you have no way of picking the truth out.

You may be looking for a low FX card but so what? You are just one individual with some very specific criteria you are looking to meet. That is the definition if you will of a NON-sticky thread criteria. Generally speaking, a 'sticky' should be a topic that is applicable to as wide an audience as possible, not a very narrow audience.

So a sticky on cards in general, the different options they offer and how each is best for a given situation would be a general topic. My experience on travel forums is that most people do not in fact have a good 'general' knowledge of these differences and could benefit from such a thread that sets them on the right track to begin with.

My experience also is that many times, people post asking about a specific type of card and it is not always the right card given their situation but they THINK it is because they haven't gained that general knowledge first and are just going by some misleading information they have heard somewhere. 

The prime example of that is how many people think getting a card that gives them 'Airmiles' is a good idea because they want to travel and ASSUME such a card will be good for them. The reality is that Airmiles cards are of little use to the average person at all. They return less than .5% per dollar spent on them. Some people don't even realize that they are different from 'Frequent Flyer' miles and programs from the Airlines. 

What I see here are people discussing whether a given card matches a rate to the second or third decimal place as if that mattered. That is a clear example of not 'seeing the forest for the trees'. What they should be looking at are their own individual specific needs and asking which cards are the best fit for them individually. Not assuming what kind of card they need and then getting bogged down in the details of that one type.

I spent several years, living off my cards. What I mean is that while my income was derived in one country in one currency, I was living in another country and using my cards to access my income 100% of the time. When I was doing that, I was using 'no FX' cards. Made sense obviously for that to be my prime criteria. I no longer use those cards today because I am no longer living in one country and deriving income in another.

Now I live in the country in which most of my income is derived. I do travel and spend between $10-20k per year doing so. But first of all, much of that is spent before leaving home in my local currency. So a no FX cards gets me absolutely no advantage on those expenditures. ie. airfares. I still exchange a fair amount of money but a good cash back card I now use gains me more than the FX fees I pay and often if I rent a car during a trip, the insurance cost savings alone the card gives me is greater than all the FX fees I pay on other expenditures on that trip. So yeah, as agent99 wrote, 'the fx fees are peanuts' SOMETIMES.

The point is that while you can provide general advice on cards; the various types and their advantages/disadvantages, when it comes down to which card an individual should use, it is an INDIVIDUAL answer to a specific set of criteria. 

As for reward sites being available 'ad naseum', what makes you think those for no FX cards are any less nauseous?
https://www.google.com/search?q=bes....69i57j0l2.11061j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

So what would adding a 'sticky' on them here do that doesn't already exist?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have done anywhere from 10-15K a year on our no fee FX card in each of the past 6-7 years. Probably, on average, half of that again on foreign ATM withdrawals. With the exception of air from Canada, most of our travel buys are made outside of the country. Plus we get rental car insurance, one percent cash back, and auto club enrollment.

I suspect one of the challenges for the card issuers is that the cards may not be profitable as the industry average. I suspect people who shop around in order to get a good FX transaction card are the same sorts of folks who keep their accounts current and do not incur any credit card interest charges.

You are correct. Everyone has different perspectives, needs, and spending habits when it comes foreign transactions. If we were only doing two weeks we probably would not bother.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Speaking personally, we use our Home Trust Visa for all charges during 7 months of being in foreign territory. It is our only connection to HT. We only use it for ATM cash advances in Europe.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> What I see here are people discussing whether a given card matches a rate to the second or third decimal place as if that mattered. That is a clear example of not 'seeing the forest for the trees'. What they should be looking at are their own individual specific needs and asking which cards are the best fit for them individually. Not assuming what kind of card they need and then getting bogged down in the details of that one type.


FX fees are shrouded with secrecy in Canada. Because of this Canadian banks are known to quietly creep up the hidden FX fees wherever they can. The only way to get an idea of what the real world fees are is to do the math yourself. Therefore gathering data points online is helpful

In the US however they are required to list all FX fees in their financial statements. Because of this people are aware of the fees and now most of their FX fees are much lower. Maybe if we can raise the awareness of these fees they will be lowered in Canada

I have googled your link before and this information is scarce and incomplete. For example I'm finding better FX deals in US that Canadians can use. Most of those credit card blogs are full of credit card referral links and ignore new solutions like Transferwise

If you think FX fees are minuscule you should do the math on buying and returning something in FX, like an erroneous hotel charge. The amazon card was great for short per diem trips outside Canada because claiming FX was a PITA otherwise


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Canadian bank fees are extremely high. Investment fees, banking fees,all fees. It seems to me that the banks do everything they can to shield the real cost of fees from the customer. The appears to me that they act in concert when setting fees. 

Years ago we had a friend who was a bank mortgage officer. She used to tell us never pay for a mortgage appraisal fee, never pay for a mortgage renewal fee. and ask for special early repayment terms to be added to the mortgage contract if you so wish. If you ask for the fee to be waived, and stand your ground, it will be waived. And they always were. 

We got tired of dealing with them so apart from a small checking account and an esavings account that feeds it, we moved everything away from the big six. Including credit cards.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

There is no point in comparing what happens in one country vs. another country. We do not live in another country, we live here. That's all that matters.

Years ago, I had a debit and credit card from a UK provider (I was living in the UK at the time). Both had zero FX fees and in fact, they even ate the 1% Visa/MC charges for use of their system. So anyone using their cards, got the same rate as the banks use when transferring money between themselves, that is the Interbank Rate. At that time, no other provider in the UK, the USA, Canada or anywhere else I am aware of, offered such a great deal for the traveller who exchanged enough money for it to be worth bothering about.

After some years of this, other card providers in the UK were forced to take notice because this one card provider was getting the bulk of all the FX transactions UK travellers were making. At that time, some UK banks were charging their customers as much as 4.5% in FX loading. So some other providers started offering 'no FX' cards although none of them ate the 1% Visa/MC fee.

However, some bright young person at the first provider, undertook to do a study of their 'customers'. What they found was that more than half of those 'customers' were using their cards ONLY when they travelled and bringing no other business (normal 'at home' credit card use, mortgage, loan, etc.) to them. In other words, the 'customers' were USING the provider without giving the provider anything back in return. Guess what the provider did. They stopped eating the 1% and started charging a 'transaction fee' of a fixed amount per transaction. Their costs to administer all those accounts getting used once a year when someone went on vacation were higher than the income it brought them. 

I see some people here talking about the Amazon card of the past and the Home Trust card of the present, in exactly the same way. Card providers offer 'perks' with their cards to draw you in but they expect that in return, they will get other business from you that will help make giving you those perks profitable. When it turns out the consumer is all about taking and not giving, that's when you see cards like the Amazon card being ended while at the same time, some other provider brings a new card to the market hoping to attract new customers. As long as people keep acting as they do, this cycle will continue. So those who want a no FX card will find themselves having to change cards repeatedly as this happens. It's a Catch-22 kind of thing.

M3s, you mention US banks. What you don't mention is that they still don't generally have 'true' Chip and Pin technology and as the result, they have the most hacked cards in the world by far. That a bank shows a line on a statement with FX fees, doesn't mean didly if your card gets hacked and you have to fight to get a transaction reversed. Don't think for a minute that US card providers are better than Canadian card providers in ALL ways.

Regarding links on Canadian no FX cards being 'scarce and incomplete', so what? How would that make a 'sticky' here any less incomplete? It is only a site like the UK Moneysavingexpert site which is now a big business employing hundreds of people to research and update their information DAILY that you can expect to be anywhere near complete and maintained up to date. 

As for FX fees not being miniscule, define miniscule and in whose opinion? Someone who exchanges $500 in spending money while on a 2 week trip to Cuba is looking at $12.50 at 2.5% exchange loading by a bank. I call that miniscule. You want to bring up 'per diem' trips as if that was a universal situation for most people. Again, I will say, how imporant FX is depends on the individual. As I have already mentioned, I lived 100% dependent on using my cards to access my income, for years. I don't think I need you to tell me anything about FX and how much it can add to. But only for SOME people in certain circumstances. It is not a GENERAL 'big deal' for the vast majority of people. 

I agree with you ian that Canada is poorly served in terms of bank fees compared to some other countries, just as we are with internet fees, tv fees and cellphone services. We pay some of the highest prices in the world for all of those. Have you ever heard about the argument over the price of buying a book in Canada vs. the USA? That has been an ongoing 'how come' discussion for decades. While all kinds of arguments about extra costs are touted, the well known reality in the end comes down to what is called 'Country Pricing' which simply means a company decides to sell its product for a different price in different countries. Why? Simply because they believe the consumer in that country will pay that different price. So a book that sells for $8 in the USA sells for $12 in Canada. Consider those numbers in terms of percentage difference and then consider whether our banking fees have anywhere near as much difference as elsewhere. 

M3s might also want to consider that 50% higher price for a book compared to how significant a FX fee is in comparison. While a 2.5% cost in FX fees might add up for someone who travels a lot, how much do you think it is in comparison to a book lover who buys a new book every week of the year? Why then should we not be advocating for a 'sticky' thread here on where to buy books at the US price rather than the Canadian price? It would be equally as useful for those who read as an FX 'sticky' would be for those who travel outside of Canada.

But for everything that is 'better' somewhere else, there is always something that is 'better' in Canada. I should know, I've lived and travelled in many countries since retiring what will be 30 years ago, this year. Everyone, everywhere loves to complain about what they don't like about their home country and Canadians are no exception. But I am here to tell you that most Canadians have no real idea of just how good we've got it in this country. It doesn't mean we can't complain that something could be better but it should mean we are also thankful that we live here and not elsewhere.

Between 2008 and 2012, 465 US banks failed. Imagine what people who had accounts with them had to go through after they failed. In the previous 5 years, only 10 banks failed in the USA. But the point is that bank failures are far from uncommon. Here in Canada we have lived with the 'Big 5' banks for a long time. They have had a monopoly and no doubt colluded on some things. Do you know when the last time a Canadian bank failed? It was 1985 when 2 small banks in Western Canada failed. Before that the last bank failure was in 1923. 
https://www.bankofcanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/bank.pdf
So yes we have high fees and fewer competitors but we also have practically zero chance of our banks failing.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

did not the TD raise its base FX charge on one of its Visa cards to more than 3% though

by any measure a 3% fee is worth avoiding

many people fly to london & book on from there since travel prices out of GB are lower. So even their air/cruise/ship tickets are bought & paid for outside canada, on credit card

as with the hidden broker FX fees, what concerns me is that credit card FX fees are largely hidden. It's the quasi-secrecy i object to, far more than the fees themselves.

most people will not go to the trouble of checking XE dot com for a credit card charge that is already several days in the past, Even then the consumer has to calculate what the spot rate charge "would have been" for the goods or service he bought, in order to determine whether he was fleeced or not.

same thing with broker FX fees. The consumer has to double-check a broker transaction with the spot rate in effect at the time of the transaction, in order to be able to see what FX he was charged & whether he was hyper-charged. Most investors can't or won't do this.

meanwhile interbank networks are growing bigger & faster all the time. Blockchain operations bring a supersonic new dimension. FX fees for millions upon millions of consumers should be going down, certainly not up to 3 or 4%. The only way banks can charge these high FX fees is because they're still allowed to build smoke, mirrors & clouds around their FX operations.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> did not the TD raise its base FX charge on one of its Visa cards to more than 3% though
> 
> by any measure a 3% fee is worth avoiding


For TD it is 3.5% for both credit and debit charges. Clearly stated!



humble_pie said:


> most people will not go to the trouble of checking XE dot com for a credit card charge that is already several days in the past, Even then the consumer has to calculate what the spot rate charge "would have been" for the goods or service he bought, in order to determine whether he was fleeced or not.


No need. The bank computers will ensure that you pay what they have declared you will!

But then we have an uneducated consumer. They will argue even when there is no basis for it. And banks love it!


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

kcowan said:


> For TD it is 3.5% for both credit and debit charges. Clearly stated!


Call me blind. 
Where are you finding that info online/what phrase are you searching against?

---

Scratch that. 
I was able to pull up a PDF with all the fee info when just doing a google search. 
However, I wasn't able to pull up that PDF and seem to have pulled up conflicting info (eg. 2.5% CC forex fee) using the search on their own website. :rolleyes-new:


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Here is a tip for anyone with the Home Trust card:

If you are a dope like me, have a 'seniors moment' and input the wrong pin number three times or so (like I did today) the card is toast. Called Home Trust today. They said the chip itself has become disabled, as a security feature, and there is only one solution. They send out a new card. Same account number, same PIN as my original. Won't work for us as we leave on Monday for two months of out of country travel. Fortunately my spouse's card will work and I can of course use my card for on line purchases.

Simply a case of too many PIN numbers to remember and being in a rush to get out of the darn store.

Be warned! Sure wish HT would move forward to a soft pin.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

milhouse said:


> Call me blind.
> Where are you finding that info online/what phrase are you searching against?
> 
> ---
> ...


It was in one of those logon messages. Interesting that they did not state that they were increasing it, just that 3.5% will be the new charge. It was at 2.5%. They gave 3 months notice to the effective date of May 1, 2018. I agree that they are pretty opaque on this but here was a third party announcement.
TDCT Bank Fees
Surprisingly, no other bank has followed suit yet.


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## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

I went to use my new HT card online for a US buy and the site asked for my zip. 
I put in my postal code and the transaction failed.
I then used the numeric workaround (the numerals from my postal code plus two zeros) and it went through. Sweet.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

fireseeker said:


> I then used the numeric workaround (the numerals from my postal code plus two zeros) and it went through. Sweet.


We have had to do that will all credit cards for quite a number of years. Mainly for gas purchases. Luckily ours is easy to remember - 01000.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

fireseeker said:


> I went to use my new HT card online for a US buy and the site asked for my zip.
> I put in my postal code and the transaction failed.
> I then used the numeric workaround (the numerals from my postal code plus two zeros) and it went through. Sweet.


Thanks, I've got to keep that in mind.


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## goldman (Mar 18, 2017)

I've been looking for cash foreign currency exchange shops to see who's got a more competitive rate over the big banks. Here's what I've found: 

https://www.ice-canada.ca/: 80 locations across Canada (many airport locations) 
USDCAD quoted +1.15% over spot
EURCAD quoted 2% over spot

https://www.interchangefinancial.com/ 5 locations in the GTA, $10 delivery 
USDCAD quoted <1% over spot
EURCAD quoted 2.5% over spot

https://www.uexchange.ca 3 locations in Ottawa, 1 in Toronto. 
USDCAD quoted 1.4% over spot
EURCAD quoted 2% over spot


https://www.kantor.ca/ 5 GTA locations
USDCAD quoted 1.2% over spot
EURCAD quoted 2.5% over spot

Continental Currency Exchange: 19 branches in Ontario (many mall locations) 
https://order.continentalcurrency.ca/ 
posted rates don't look very competitive but on their site they promise "If you find a better exchange rate in any of our local markets that we can verify, we will beat it.*"
Has anyone tried getting a price match with them?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

goldman said:


> I've been looking for cash foreign currency exchange shops to see who's got a more competitive rate over the big banks. Here's what I've found:
> 
> https://www.ice-canada.ca/: 80 locations across Canada (many airport locations)
> USDCAD quoted +1.15% over spot
> ...



USD/CAD rates ^^ are too high

cmffers either arbitrage (gambit) their own currency exchanges at close to spot rates or else they pay broker FX fee, which in most cases is lower than the rates posted above

some folks w larger amounts - $100k & up - go to knightsbridge. AFAIK they are happy. One cmffer reported here that k'bridge offered spot rate for her $500k exchange plus fast network e-links to & from her banks in canada & the US.

.


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## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

humble_pie said:


> USD/CAD rates ^^ are too high
> 
> cmffers either arbitrage (gambit) their own currency exchanges at close to spot rates or else they pay broker FX fee, which in most cases is lower than the rates posted above
> 
> ...


Gambiting is good for exchanging currencies for investment purposes. But it's not so good for getting ready cash, which Goldman seems to be interested in. At best, it's step one of a process.

Also, I just checked BMOIL: They're quoting an FX fee of 1.5% over spot for CAD to USD, so not lower than Goldman's list.

I have used Knightsbridge to send $5K to a friend in the US. It worked very well, and was cheaper than anything on this list (don't remember the exact forex fee).


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

fireseeker said:


> I just checked BMOIL: They're quoting an FX fee of 1.5% over spot for CAD to USD



outrageous. They were closer to 1% for one-way transaction last i checked; but that was a few years ago.

do you suppose BMO raised its FX fees to compensate? compensate because they knew that many of their clients were gambitting easily, cheaply, instantly, using their trade platform which is one of the only 2 in canada that can handle instant online gambit pairs?

1.5% is inacceptable. Global moneycentre banking networks are becoming bigger, faster, cheaper by the minute. Exchange fees should be coming down, not going up. Consumers need to become activists.

.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> 1.5% is inacceptable. Global moneycentre banking networks are becoming bigger, faster, cheaper by the minute. Exchange fees should be coming down, not going up. Consumers need to become activists...


TD upgraded their fee to 3.5%, and, in spite of no other banks following suit, they must have found limited resistance from their clients. In the forums here in Mexico, I find the resistance incredible. People don't believe it. Because it does not show up as a separate charge. Forcing them to disclose might help but it is buried.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

UK based TransferWise is ~0.5% fx (depending on currency) is gaining popularity with the young travelling crowd for their low/transparent fx fees. They've added new products recently, free multi-currency account and mastercard. Haven't tried them yet myself


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## the_apprentice (Jan 31, 2013)

m3s said:


> UK based TransferWise is ~0.5% fx (depending on currency) is gaining popularity with the young travelling crowd for their low/transparent fx fees. They've added new products recently, free multi-currency account and mastercard. Haven't tried them yet myself


I have been using them for a few years and have transferred high amounts. Works flawlessly and it's secure! I also get to avoid the outrageous and undisclosed bank FX fees, and it takes about 3 business days to transfer the funds. The fees are low enough for me that I won't go anywhere else even if I can save a few bucks.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

the_apprentice said:


> I have been using them for a few years and have transferred high amounts. Works flawlessly and it's secure! I also get to avoid the outrageous and undisclosed bank FX fees, and it takes about 3 business days to transfer the funds. The fees are low enough for me that I won't go anywhere else even if I can save a few bucks.



thankx for the reco

have some foreign currency (not USD) i'd like to exchange; will investigate em
have u ever heard any complaints?


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## the_apprentice (Jan 31, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> thankx for the reco
> 
> have some foreign currency (not USD) i'd like to exchange; will investigate em
> have u ever heard any complaints?


I did my research on Transferwife years ago when your options were either your local bank or Western Union. Lots of positives about Transferwise at the time, although now I'm not sure what the overall thought of the company is. Probably best to do your own research as I'm sure you will be doing. I use it occasionally (probably once every two or three months) and like I mentioned, it's extremely convenient and does exactly as advertised. I had a minor issue once and Transferwise covered my fees as a courtesy without any hesitation.

To give you some background on other services I've used:

I have used KnightsbridgeFX in the past with a positive experience. I just found it inconvenient having to call and speak with someone to transfer funds. Like most millennials I prefer multi-tasking behind a screen. KnightsbridgeFX has a location downtown Toronto, not the most convenient option.

I used TD as well and aside from their high fees, they ask too many questions (maybe for FINTRAC or data purposes?). I don't see a smart investor or informed person ever using TD as more competition enters this space.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

kcowan said:


> TD upgraded their fee to 3.5%, and, in spite of no other banks following suit, they must have found limited resistance from their clients. In the forums here in Mexico, I find the resistance incredible. People don't believe it. Because it does not show up as a separate charge. Forcing them to disclose might help but it is buried.




a few years ago, while i was researching hidden broker FX fees, i came across this tidbit on hidden credit card FX fees:


evidently in canada, a decade or more ago, FX fees on canadian credit cards were also not disclosed. Just like your situation in mexico.

enough canadian consumers protested loudly. The sad fact at the time was that CC companies were charging the base FX 2.50% fee plus another 1.50-2% on top of that; but nothing was disclosed on statements so most consumers did not catch on.

sufficient consumer protest in canada did lead to an amendment to the federal Bank Act which amendment now forces CC companies in this country to state their FX rates on statements. Apparently such an amendment is still missing in mexican CC regulation.



the reason this happened relatively quickly in canada is because CC companies fall under the Bank Act. Whereas brokers do not fall under the Bank Act, their regulating authorities are only the weak provincial security commissions (ontario being the stronger exception)

it surprised me to learn - while researching as above - that there are no regulations whatsoever that govern what kind of FX fees brokers can charge. Here in canada, nearly all brokers seem to be competitive. They are charging a rate that is slightly better for the consumer than their parent bank's exorbitant FX. It's a reliable source of broker income.

speaking for myself, it's not the interest rates they charge that i care about. Brokers are welcome to charge 18% interest if they think they can get away with it. What i care deeply about is brokers' failure to disclose or communicate their FX applications to their clients.

the good news is that, over the time period i've been watching the FX situation at brokers (about 9 years now), the progress has all been in the direction of greater transparency. Progress has been slow - too slow imho - but there definitely has been mild progress.

credit card FX reform is a vastly bigger sector than broker FX. Kudos to the pioneering cmffers who reliably post & exchange breaking information in this forum.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

the_apprentice said:


> I did my research on Transferwife years ago when your options were either your local bank or Western Union. Lots of positives about Transferwise at the time, although now I'm not sure what the overall thought of the company is. Probably best to do your own research as I'm sure you will be doing. I use it occasionally (probably once every two or three months) and like I mentioned, it's extremely convenient and does exactly as advertised. I had a minor issue once and Transferwise covered my fees as a courtesy without any hesitation.
> 
> To give you some background on other services I've used:
> 
> ...



great info, thankx again

re Knightsbridge it's my understanding they do USD only


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> sufficient consumer protest in canada did lead to an amendment to the federal Bank Act which amendment now forces CC companies in this country to state their FX rates on statements. Apparently such an amendment is still missing in mexican CC regulation.



Just to clarify, I am talking about Canadian bank FX fees. I have no Mexican CCs. Yes they announce the fee but they never show the fee as a line item in the transaction so tourists will argue that it does not exist.

And yes the CMFers have done the work to verify that the HT card is genuinely no fee using the Visa International rate.

The next step will be for the government to mandate that the fees must be shown separately like they have done with AUM fees. Every month there is the fee and then GST on the fee 2 TX per account.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> re Knightsbridge it's my understanding they do USD only


I have tried to use xe.com but they require the money to be received out of your account via bill payment. This works fine except for TD and CIBC who do not list them as a bill payment destination.


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## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

humble_pie said:


> re Knightsbridge it's my understanding they do USD only


I haven't tried other currencies, but KB's website certainly offers more than USD:



> Benefits of Using Knightsbridge Foreign Exchange
> We help you convert Canadian and US dollars *(or any other currency)* at the best exchange rates, giving you more money in return vs. the banks.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Slightly different issue. We are wintering in USA (SC).

We have a USA$ Mastercard and have funds in US$ BMO account to pay the monthly bills.
We also have Scotia Momentum Cashback card. We use this for groceries and gas and get 4% cashback on purchases+2.5% fee. 

However, we need US$ cash for sundries. This year, for some reason we have run low. My wife went to Walmart and tried to get cashback on purchases using the BMO US$ CC. But they said they could not do that. When the card was inserted, their system said cashback not allowed. We do recall doing something like that before, but can't recall how. She ended up using an ATM in store which incurs a $2.50 fee, plus interest on the cash withdrawn until paid. (She transferred money into CC account today).

Does anyone know if there is another way to get cash back at Walmart (or elsewhere)? We have a C$ debit card, but not a US$ debit card. There are no BMO/Harris banks in this area.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

agent99 said:


> Does anyone know if there is another way to get cash back at Walmart (or elsewhere)? We have a C$ debit card, but not a US$ debit card. There are no BMO/Harris banks in this area.


I use TD Bank (USA) debit card. The TD Bank (USA) checking account is free with $100 USD balance and ATM fees waived with $2500 USD balance. I can get free USD at any ATM and cash back for free. I have heard TD Bank (USA) is also good for travel with low fx.

In the USA the financial institutions must display actual FX fees so many USA banks have much better fx deals. I'm afraid Canadian based "USD" accounts are kind of pointless because they offer no benefits and yet you still convert at Canadian big bank rates


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

m3s said:


> I use TD Bank (USA) debit card. The TD Bank (USA) checking account is free with $100 USD balance and ATM fees waived with $2500 USD balance. I can get free USD at any ATM and cash back for free. I have heard TD Bank (USA) is also good for travel with low fx.
> 
> In the USA the financial institutions must display actual FX fees so many USA banks have much better fx deals. I'm affraid Canadian based "USD" accounts are kind of pointless because they offer no benefits and yet you still convert at Canadian big bank rates


Sounds like we should have a debit card from a US bank. We already have BMO and RBC accounts, so maybe we should stay with those. I see BMO now have a crossborder banking option where we could get a BMO Harrisbank card. Will look into that, at least for next year.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

agent99 said:


> Sounds like we should have a debit card from a US bank. We already have BMO and RBC accounts, so maybe we should stay with those. I see BMO now have a crossborder banking option where we could get a BMO Harrisbank card. Will look into that, at least for next year.


RBC and TD have cross-border banking. From comparing with colleagues the RBC one is better for moving money cross border (but I would rather use TransferWise at a much lower FX rate anyways) Quick look at RBC USA site they don’t seem to waive the fees like TD USA does. 



> If you can't find a no-fee ATM nearby, you can use your RBC Bank Debit card for cash back with your purchases at many larger retail merchants such as grocery stores, or visit any U.S. ATM and *request a refund of the ATM fee. Refund requests can be made by signing into online banking and sending a secure message* to our online banking support team. All refunds are subject to limitations


I don't have to request a refund like this, that would be annoying imo. I just get a automatic refund in my TD USA account (refund of the ATM fee from non-TD ATMs) I even go to those little expensive ATMs with $3.5 USD fees and TD refunds it


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

re transferWise, this appears to be a blockchain operation. There are probably others but it's the first i've heard of that offers services to retail clients. In fact, seems to be designed for retail clients.

appears to be charging less than .50% fee on some major overseas currencies. USD/CAD rates are even cheaper.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

agent99 said:


> Sounds like we should have a debit card from a US bank. We already have BMO and RBC accounts, so maybe we should stay with those. I see BMO now have a crossborder banking option where we could get a BMO Harrisbank card. Will look into that, at least for next year.


For the future you might also like the Stack mastercard. It's a prepaid mastercard, so you load it with money from another account (this is done in an app on your smartphone, and is fast/easy). It doesn't have any ATM fees or foreign exchange fees above the normal MC exchange fee (i.e. not 2% + MC exchange like most cards). I withdrew from an ATM in Chicago using it and it worked like a charm.


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

If interested, I just received a email advising that Knightsbridge will be featured on Dragons Den - tonight March 7th, 8pm CBC


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have been travelling for six/seven weeks. So far we have avoided approx. $200 in Fx admin fees by using the Home Trust Card. It is good for transactions in any currency.

We believe that over one year we will save $500, inclusive of cancelling our auto club membership by using the card.


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## l1quidfinance (Mar 17, 2017)

After a quick work trip to Atlanta it appears Brim Financial is about 0.5% off from the rate quoted on the BOC. 

Although it's difficult to know exactly which rate to go from (Date of transaction or posting date) Either way it's very close.

As a comparison using the Home Trust Visa (unfortunately not on the same day) the result seems to be within 0.2% of the BOC posted rates. 

Both very good but I am much happier to use the Home Trust card now as you have the transparency that they are using the Visa rate where as Brim are using their own. 


If anyone wants to check the Numbers

BRIM
Transaction 04/07 $49.80 USD @ $1.340160643 $66.74 CAD posted to Card
Transaction 04/08 $27.21 USD @ 1.338846012 $36.43 CAD Posted to card

Home Trust
Transaction 04/10 - $34.15 USD $1.3364568 $45.64CAD posted to card

Not too many data points to go from but it does give an idea.


BOC Weekly Data
04/05 - $1.3386
04/06 - $1.3325
04/09 - $1.3316
04/10 - $1.3326
04/11 - $1.3378

Avaerage 2019-04-05 - 2019-04-11 $1.3346


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

How do you like the Brim user interface? I cancelled my Brim application but it is still intriguing. Good to hear Home Trust has improved their interface.

Scotiabank is promoting their Visa Passport without foreign transaction fees pretty heavily during the playoffs. Questrade is also touting low fees heavily during playoff games.

That tells me minimizing these banking fees is becoming mainstream in Canada, at least for the incoming generation of hockey fans apparently

Or does CBC sports stream targeted ads now?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Here are my records of FX transactions with the Home Trust visa, with a mix of USD and AUD transactions. I realize that others have seen the HT card track the published Visa rate precisely, but I'm using a different methodology. I recorded the market (not Visa) exchange rate according to XE at the time of the transaction, then compared the final CAD charge seen on the credit card. What I'm tracking is the % difference versus the ideal no-fee charge.

Sometimes there can be a delay of several days before the transaction is posted. In those cases the exchange rate will have changed, which probably explains some of the large % differences seen in this list. These variations _should average out to zero_ over time, so I'm most interested in the average result. The number I see over two months is 0.27% average FX fee which is very nice, pretty much nil. I'm very impressed!

This table shows each currency of a transaction and the difference between the actual charge and ideal no-fee charge. Positive means I paid more than the ideal charge, negative means I paid less.


```
AUD	-0.25%
AUD	0.52%
USD	0.28%
USD	0.62%
AUD	0.61%
AUD	0.47%
USD	0.87%
AUD	-0.01%
AUD	0.11%
AUD	0.09%
AUD	0.28%
AUD	0.12%
AUD	0.13%
AUD	0.31%
AUD	0.32%
AUD	0.62%
AUD	0.21%
AUD	0.30%
AUD	0.09%
AUD	0.12%
AUD	-0.09%
	
Average	0.27%
```


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

This matches the the few checks that I made on two months of travel-Thailand, Australia, USA.

I checked the FX rate when I first got the card. Now I seldom do. I am just happy no paying the 3 percent that I seemed to be paying on most FX charges on my CIBC Visa. For us, the difference is about $500 a year. Sometimes a little less, sometimes more. Plus cost avoidance from not renewing our $90 auto club membership. Not a lot, but that $500 looks better in my pocket that it does in the bank's vault!


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I just tried another USD charge on the Home Trust visa. Based on the ideal market FX rate, I expected $231.21 and the charge came through at $231.60 which is only 39 cents or 0.17% more. Amazing! And to think I'm getting points for cashback along with this.


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## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

I have just returned from a trip to Europe (mostly Croatia) and have some observations and data points to share, mostly related to Home Trust Preferred which I used extensively.

Observation #1: I am going to attach a photo I took of the exchange rates offered in the Munich airport at a currency booth. They are extraordinary! They were buying and selling with about a 12.5% markup. It is madness to use such a service.

Observation #2: Perhaps this is commonly known, but the pervasiveness of retailers offering automatic currency exchange -- i.e. being billed on Visa in CAD (or USD) rather than euros or Croatian kuna -- through their card readers shocked me. Again, the exchange rates being offered were usurious. Several times I had to ask that the transaction be done in the native currency, leaving Visa to do the FX back to CAD. 

Observation #3: XE has an outstanding app which delivers real-time currency rates. It also has a calendar function that allows you to go back in time and find mid-market rates for any currency on any day, indeed at any time of day. I used it for the following comparisons.

Twice during our trip we used our Vancity Community Investment Bank Visa card on the same day as we used the Home Trust card. 
Home Trust test #1 on May 22: Vancity FX cost = 2.13%, HT FX cost = 0.15%
Home Trust test #2 on May 30: Vancity FX cost = 2.19%, HT FX cost = 0.16% 

Needless to say, I'm pretty happy with HT.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

fireseeker said:


> Observation #2: Perhaps this is commonly known, but the pervasiveness of retailers offering automatic currency exchange -- i.e. being billed on Visa in CAD (or USD) rather than euros or Croatian kuna -- through their card readers shocked me. Again, the exchange rates being offered were usurious. Several times I had to ask that the transaction be done in the native currency, leaving Visa to do the FX back to CAD. [/ATTACH]


There is a high-end restaurant in Puerto Vallarta that presents the bill in pesos and USD. They will automatically convert to USD for you at a bad FX rate. So your Cdn card gets charged that crappy USD charge and yoru bank gets to give you their crappy FX too. We have had to send to bill back and ask them to charge in pesos (since it illegal to charge in USD).

In Europe, we had a restaurant tell us that their Visa machine was broken. I asked to speak to the manager and suddenly they got it working again! Visa charges small retailers 6% to 8% of face value.

(They get away with this fraud because the average consumer does not understand FX. It is the banks' parallel to embedded MERs.)


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The term for what is being described is 'dynamic currency conversion'. It has been around for around a decade now and you can come across it anywhere in the world. It is to be avoided.
https://thepointsguy.com/2015/06/dynamic-currency-conversion/

This and things like poor exchange rates at airports are well known to frequent travellers. It is the once a year vacationer who most often fall prey to these rip-offs.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

There is a large segment of people who seem to be incapable of understanding currency exchange at all. When living in a popular tourist area in another country, I used to hear tourists saying things frequently like, 'how much is that in REAL money', as if the only real money was their home currency. It is not hard to understand how they would opt to be charged in their 'real' home currency if given the choice. It's a number they can understand. They are the target of DCC.

Living in an area where frequent exposure to tourists happens is a real eye opener. My perceptions altered considerably in that regard, in relation to the average knowledge of a tourist and their behaviour based on nationality. Some stereotypes really do have a basis in reality.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

m3s said:


> USA based cards:
> 
> TD Bank N.A. debit visa - 0.43%* no monthly fees with min balance
> TD Bank N.A. visa - 0.43%* no annual fees (1% cash back so net positive foreign transactions)
> ...


Got a letter from TD that they are increasing the international transaction fee from 0% to 3% on the debit card.. however the premium account waives this fee (free with $2500 min balance) They are also increasing wire fees and non-TD atm fees (both also still free with the premium account) The old entry account was too good to be true (free with min balance of $100)


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> Got a letter from TD that they are increasing the international transaction fee from 0% to 3% on the debit card.. however the premium account waives this fee (free with $2500 min balance) They are also increasing wire fees and non-TD atm fees (both also still free with the premium account) The old entry account was too good to be true (free with min balance of $100)


Just goes to show what I was saying on the thread about Rogers changing their offer m3s. If people continue to want to play 'win/lose' with their cards, they can expect the card issuers to respond in kind while those who are playing 'win/win' will be offered something that allows them to continue playing win/win. 

What your saying is that TD has just told you that if you keep some money deposited with them, they will keep giving you no FX charges etc.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

The neighbours at our Zihuatanejo hotel are having/have been having a terrible time with their Tangerine debit card. It does not seem to work. Two days in a row, after multiple calls to Tangerine it is still not working. The various ATMs give them the message insufficient funds when in fact this is not the case. They are extremely frustrated.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Always have at least two different debit cards and two credit cards when one travels.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> The neighbours at our Zihuatanejo hotel are having/have been having a terrible time with their Tangerine debit card. It does not seem to work. Two days in a row, after multiple calls to Tangerine it is still not working. The various ATMs give them the message insufficient funds when in fact this is not the case. They are extremely frustrated.


Have they tried using their Debit Card to pay for something to see if that works? It sounds to me like the ATMs while saying, 'insufficient funds' are in fact probably not recognizing the account somehow. So instead of a message which says, 'account does not exist', the default message is what they are getting.

Was it working in the past? Did they just arrive and this is the immediate respond from their first attempt to use the card?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

They have been here for six weeks. No issues until this past few days. They have used their debit card multiple times prior to this in ATM machines here. Three phone calls to Tangerine and they insist all is well. Credit card works fine. They do not use debit for retail. 

They went off today at Tangerines suggestion to try again....several ATMs since the local store has five different varieties in their store. Tangerine has told them to if no luck to get a cash advance on their credit card and have offered to pay all s/c’s. The real issue is the inconvenience of it all.

I wonder if the chip on their card has a fault of some sort. They get the same message on multiple ATMs of different banks...insufficient funds.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

When possible I always avoid in-store ATMs as they are not maintained or monitored as well as bank ATMs. When in foreign countries (or even in Canada actually) always use an ATM at a bank location whenever possible


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Tangerine got their card working today after the third day of trying. My guess is someone flipped a switch but their CS people were not about to own up to it.

Our strong preference is the same. Use the ATM inside the bank. During daylight hours.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

There is no denying that our dependency on 'plastic' to access our money can have downsides. They can be especially problematic when travelling. As AltaRed suggests, having at least 2 cards both Debit and Credit can help but there is no guarantee that a problem will not arise and usually at the most inconvenient times. Murphy's Law is alive and well.

IF I were to encounter the problem the couple ian is referring to has had, I would have transferred funds(if necessary) into a different back account with a different bank and tried my card for that bank rather than continuing to keep trying the one card with the one bank. Frankly, if I were the couple, I would probably be planning now to close my Tangerine account.

I also think (but have no proof) that this kind of issue is more likely to happen with online only banks rather than our major brick and mortar banks.

I agree with james4beach in regards to avoiding in 'store' ATMs and sticking to ATMs at banks.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

On a lighter note although also a sign of the times note, I offer up this ATM and card story.

Some while ago on a travel forum there was a thread by a woman who posted a story that went something like, 'please help, my daughter and her boyfriend are on vacation in SE Asia and her card will not work in the ATMs. What should she do? She has messaged me asking me what she should do and I need to get back to her as soon as possible with an answer.'

First of all, the posters was posting as if she were in a chat room, not a forum where answers are not instantaneous. Second, the daughter clearly saw it as her mother's job to find the answer, not her own job to figure it out. Thirdly, the daughter also saw her cellphone as a 'lifeline' that could be used whenever she had a problem and it would save her from whatever her problem was.

The responses on the travel forum (primarily a forum aimed at independent travellers) was to tell her daughter to find her own answer. Somewhat harsh I'm sure some will say but it was the implied tone of the post (which I may not be capturing in my paraphrasing very well) that I'm sure annoyed most regular posters in that forum. Someone has a problem but they expect someone else to solve it for them. As if it were a 'right' they had to expect someone else to solve it.

I found some of the responses quite amusing. They didn't just tell the mother to tell her daughter to solve her own problems, they also decried the mother for poor parenting.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Their Tangerine card does not work today. Same issue. I suspect that they will be cancelling it when they get home.


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