# Scamming grandma(s)



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

*A 90-year-old ‘grandma scam’ victim took out $10,000 from TD Bank to pay a fraudster — in cash*

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/08/28/a-90-year-old-grandma-scam-victim-took-out-10000-from-td-bank-to-pay-a-fraudster-in-cash.html

What's your opinion? 

Should the bank take some responsibility on this or show and reimburse this little old lady? 

Or it's tough luck grandma, get it back from your grandson!


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## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

Beaver101 said:


> *A 90-year-old ‘grandma scam’ victim took out $10,000 from TD Bank to pay a fraudster — in cash*
> 
> https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/08/28/a-90-year-old-grandma-scam-victim-took-out-10000-from-td-bank-to-pay-a-fraudster-in-cash.html
> 
> ...


Here is the thing-the AVERAGE 90 year old is about as much an adult as the AVERAGE 12 year old-but 90 year olds are allowed to vote, drive a car, buy alcohol, etc.etc. Then when they get taken they demand to be treated like infants.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

So, the bank asked her what the money was for, she lied because she "didn't want anyone to find out about Colin" and you still think the bank is responsible?

Umm, you can't legislate stupidity away. A simple call to Colin's mother, something anyone would probably do to see how the family is doing when their child is in an accident, would have prevented the whole issue. She didn't do that for days. 

Had the bank not released the funds, we'd probably be reading headlines about how the bank refused to release a grandmother's hard earned money. 

To me, this is the price of education. It could easily have been avoided with a simple phone call to other family memebers. Certainly not the bank's responsibility, they even intervened more than I'd like personally.

I remember one time I invested in a "pump and dump" stock scam. I knew it was a pump and dump investment at the time, I figured I'd play it and get out. Only problem is, my investment personality is a buy and hold investor, not a stock watcher...I missed the timing to get out...not just once, but three times...then the stock went to zero. 

Who should compensate me for my loss? It was a pump and dump, but the bank allowed me to buy...no one talked me out of it, so I should sue everyone to get my money back right? To me it was the cost of education, I learned I'm not going to make money that way...years later I wrote it off as a capital loss and offset some capital gains I'd made from buying stuff that fit my investment personality.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Yeah, but she was frightened and most likely panicked, not thinking at all. Besides, the bank got her to sign a Standard Release of Liability which states they had cautioned her of dangers of "loss, theft" so how does this scam not be theft?



> Bank officials then had Mahoney sign a “Standard Release of Liability” form, which clients are asked to sign whenever they withdraw large amounts. It states, in part, that they “have cautioned the undersigned that risks and dangers of loss, *theft,* personal injury and disappearance are obviously present when such a large amount of bank notes are delivered to an individual customer and taken away by a customer from the branch.”


Also, the bank didn't answer what protocols are in place to prevent seniors from being swindled other than that standard release form to protect itself or absolve from further liability. 



> The bank did not respond to questions about what protocols are in place to prevent seniors from being swindled, or whether the bank has a campaign that informs older clients about financial scams.


I say, funny enough, the $10K withdrawal didn't raise any flags for money-laundering? Don't banks suppose to report any transactions for $10K or more now adays?


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## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Yeah, but she was frightened and most likely panicked, not thinking at all. Besides, the bank got her to sign a Standard Release of Liability which states they had cautioned her of dangers of "loss, theft" so how does this scam not be theft?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you in favor of these seniors being allowed to vote, drive a car, purchase booze? It sounds like they want the rights of adults without any responsibilities of adults.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

It is unclear to me why anyone would suggest that the bank has any liability.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Big Kahuna said:


> Are you in favor of these seniors being allowed to vote, drive a car, purchase booze? It sounds like they want the rights of adults without any responsibilities of adults.


 ... so are you saying, you will never be one of "these seniors" ever?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

He bank did ask she replied its for renovations and a family member. She outright lied. What fear is there when a family member gets in a car accident? Why didn’t she talk to the parents?

She’s a grown adult, take responsibility for your life and quit tying to blame someone else, let alone a bank. The whole thing could have been avoided with a simple phone call. 

As I said before, the headlines could very easily have been Bank refuses to release funds to a senior. And you’d probably be all over them for that. 

I recently got a message on Facebook from a relative...within two sentences I realized that it was someone who’d cloned my relatives contact information and Facebook page. They didn’t even get to the government grant part of the scam before I had them reported and informed my real relative what was going on. Should we shut down all social media sites because people can easily steal another’s identity and scam their friends? Maybe I could sue mark for creating the platform.


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## rl1983 (Jun 17, 2015)

ian said:


> It is unclear to me why anyone would suggest that the bank has any liability.


Funny, the bank my Grandmother was dealing with claimed that when my Dad showed up to clear out and shutdown her accounts. He had power of attorney.


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## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

Beaver101 said:


> ... so are you saying, you will never be one of "these seniors" ever?


What logical point are you trying to make?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

The bank asked. She lied. End of story. WHy would anyone ever think that the bank was liable. It was her bank account, her money, she lied. End of story.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

How can the bank have any liability. They asked the lady what she was using the money for, she lied. They even had her sign a liability release which outlines the risk. 

Yes, she was scared, but that is not an excuse. That’s how these scams work, they prey on the emotions or niaviety of people. That’s not the banks fault, that’s the thief’s fault. So what can one do, they need to be educated. If a senior is about as capable as 12 year, then the seniors family should be educating them.

My parents are old, naive and immigrated and don’t u derstand the ways here. They don’t understand technology. So my siblings and I have an understanding that it’s our duty to help our parents so they don’t get scammed. I use the same care if not more because they don’t speak English very well, as I do with my ironically, 12 and 9 old. We have told our parents not to give any personal information on the phone, even if they do speak their native tongue. Nothing with numbers including birthdate, SIN, address, credit card, banking information. We tell them if they are legit they will have the information. If they aren’t sure, get the number and one of the siblings will call them back. We have said no one in our family will ever be in trouble that we will call them for help as an emergency. They should never send money. 

I noticed in the article the daughter of the senior went to the bank and is asking for money about. Maybe she and her siblings should be making sure this doesn’t happen. 

I say this as what else is the bank supposed to do. I do most of the banking for my parents, especially my mom since she is no longer capable. Because of potential fraud and questions they ask me, I have spend a lot more effort and time with my paper trail. I understand why, but it makes it frustrating for me, and if they started making it harder, then if I felt less obligated I would tell my family forget it. If people are worried about the seniors in the life, then don’t expect the bank to take care of them, texted help to family. On side note, my former coworker is elderly and doesn’t know this stuff very well and doesn’t have anyone helping him. as a friend, whom he trusts, I have made my self available to help talk anything ‘suspicious ‘ so he doesn’t get taken.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Big Kahuna said:


> What logical point are you trying to make?


 ... you tell me. What are you insinuating with your questions?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> He bank did ask she replied its for renovations and a family member. She outright lied. What fear is there when a family member gets in a car accident? Why didn’t she talk to the parents?
> ...


 ... yes she did lie and why is it that? Or as you so sensibly noted - what fear is there when a family member gets in a car accident? Don't you think there was something wrong with her mental capacity at that time?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

rl1983 said:


> Funny, the bank my Grandmother was dealing with claimed that when my Dad showed up to clear out and shutdown her accounts. He had power of attorney.


Did he have POA? You can’t just walk int the Bank and claim you have it. You must produce the proper legal documents, they will take a copy, and take the identification. Depending on the Bank, they will send send it to their legal department to confirm. I had to exercise the POA at 5 major Bank said last year, and I assure it wasn’t just walking in a closing the account. 

Also, the banks as POAremond you that all transactions are in the best interest of person you are acting upon. Anytime I have had a larger transaction they have ask me, and I keep perfect records. 

If the bank closed the account without proper protocol, then for sure they should be liable.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> How can the bank have any liability. They asked the lady what she was using the money for, she lied. They even had her sign a liability release which outlines the risk.
> 
> Yes, she was scared, but that is not an excuse. That’s how these scams work, they prey on the emotions or niaviety of people. That’s not the banks fault, that’s the thief’s fault. So what can one do, they need to be educated. *If a senior is about as capable as 12 year, then the seniors family should be educating them.**
> 
> ...


 ... there you got it but the "daughter" in this case is disputing that the bank has some liability when she withdrew that much money out at once. But the bank was only interested in protecting its self, not the customer (and overlooking she's a 90 year old senior who "lied" so easily too) with that standard release form. Why couldn't the bank call up the daughter who was a joint owner of that account too?



> I say this as what else is the bank supposed to do. I do most of the banking for my parents, especially my mom since she is no longer capable. Because of potential fraud and questions they ask me, I have spend a lot more effort and time with my paper trail. I understand why, but it makes it frustrating for me, and if they started making it harder, then if I felt less obligated I would tell my family forget it. If people are worried about the seniors in the life, then don’t expect the bank to take care of them, texted help to family. On side note, my former coworker is elderly and doesn’t know this stuff very well and doesn’t have anyone helping him. as a friend, whom he trusts, I have made my self available to help talk anything ‘suspicious ‘ so he doesn’t get taken.


... I say you got part of it but then there's the situation where the who-doesn't-know-his-stuff-very-well senior who doesn't have anyone to help him/her, then what? In your case, your former senior co-worker was very lucky to have you as a friend.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

I keep waiting for that call, but never get it. It would go something like this....

Caller: Grandpa, please help me, I need some money because I got into a car accident and the police are holding me until I pay them cash.
Me: Billy is that you? ( I'll make up any name ).
Caller: Yes grandpa, it's me. Please help me.
Me: Billy you little son of a *****. You never once called or visited me; even after my operation. Now you're in trouble and want my help?
Caller: Please grandpa, they're saying I'll go to jail if I don't give them the money.
Me: Good! Rot behind bars. I hope your cellmate is a huge guy that takes a liking to you.

Hang-up.

As for this lady, no, the bank is under no obligation to play nursemaid to every idiot who comes in the door. They did ask her what the money was for, and she didn't tell them the whole story, even lied about renovations. Too bad so sad!

But, of course, since the daughter is a CBC employee, we'll soon see them shame TD Bank on TV to give this lady her money back.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Beaver101 said:


> ... yes she did lie and why is it that? Or as you so sensibly noted - what fear is there when a family member gets in a car accident? Don't you think there was something wrong with her mental capacity at that time?


And how is the bank supposed to know? Do they have a fear meter? Perhaps we should have a mental test for everyone entering he bank? She seems quite sane from the article. There is a big difference between stupid and having mental issues. Why didn’t she pick up the phone and call the parents? Why did she take days to do it? It would be the first thing I would have done. She didn’t. Not the banks fault. Why did she lie to the bank? What possible “fear” could there be? Does the bank care if some relative was in a car accident? No. 

If she lied to the bank, how can we know she’s telling he truth to the reporter? She has more to fear from public embarrassment than she did at the bank...plus she’s trying to scam the bank into paying for her mistakes.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... there you got it but the "daughter" in this case is disputing that the bank has some liability when she withdrew that much money out at once. But the bank was only interested in protecting its self, not the customer (and overlooking she's a 90 year old senior who "lied" so easily too) with that standard release form. Why couldn't the bank call up the daughter who was a joint owner of that account too?
> .


I am sorry, I don’t how it’s the banks problem. If the daughter felt her mother was incompetent or concerns that she would be taken advantage of, it is an option to set up banks accounts to require both people to be present or a phone call. The onus is on the people who set up the account not the bank. Unless the people can prove that the grandmother was incompetent and the bank KNEW she was incompetent, it is not the banks duty to notify the daughter. 

I say this having a lot of experience in this. We suspected my mother has been deteriorating in her mental health over the years. She did REALLY odd things. She made large amount withdrawals and gave them away, bought odd things, or gambled them. We as a family struggled on how to deal with this, at no time did we ever expect the bank to take accountability. 

Why couldn’t the bank call? They could have called, we had received the occasional call from the bank. The point is though they could have called, it is not their responsibility to do so. There was no indication to the bank that this lady was incompetent (the article says how active she is) and that was fraud. 

As a joint owner of accounts with my spouse, my children, and my parents, if received a call everytime a large purchase was made, I would would be questioning why the heck they are bothering me. Also, as the person who makes a lot of odd transaction, I would be annoyed if I had to wait everytime for them to call the other person. 

Let me tell you of my frustration to help my parents pay back a family memeber who had help them when my mom first went t the hospital, thanks to the security of the bank. I had full POA and everything done properly. I needed to transfer a large amount of money, ironically, just under $10k. In order to have a good paper trial, I wanted everything online vs taking out cash. 

The amount was over the daily amount, I was to could call directly and have them increase the limit. After being on hold for an hour, the person first said no proble, and would increase the limit, and then got some sort of error because I was the POA and not the person, and they couldn’t get ahold of my mother who is in a who. I tried to escalated, and the manager couldn’t figure it out. It was some security thing. Then I tried again, waiting on hold, to at least figure out what the heck was happening. At least this time they told me to come in and bring the other account t holder because they couldn’t get a hold of mom (which says on file she is incapacitated and in a home). So I left work early, driveto the Bank, with my I’d, legal papers and, all, and they ask ‘yep, everything is in order, you could have done this on line’. The problem was this was the first time I was making such large wothdrawel on line. Then I asked to just take out the money in cash or bank draft because they made me drive Allene way. They said they didn’t have that much cash, and would have to do a bank draft however, would they would charge my mother a bank 
Draft fee, but if I did it on line it would be free. The cheapest option is to go online. I get to go through various levels of security based on some bank person trying to protect my mother whom they know nothing about. 

How the heck are the banks supposed to supposed to know? It’s not there job to go through all of this if everything checks out. 




Beaver101 said:


> .
> ... I say you got part of it but then there's the situation where the who-doesn't-know-his-stuff-very-well senior who doesn't have anyone to help him/her, then what? In your case, your former senior co-worker was very lucky to have you as a friend.


Yeah, my old colleague is lucky to have me. He knows it. He does nice things for my kids too. 

I don’t have the answer for these other seniors that don’t have anyone. I can tell though, it’s not the banks job. I question if this grandma is kind enough to being willing to help her grandson, then obviously there is some relationship there. Why aren’t the grandkids or children teaching her?


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

She sounds like a very nice lady and very smart in her day but I don't think the bank should be responsible for any reimbursement. Ultimately, you need to be able to take care of your own affairs or set yourself up for help. Situation could have been prevented if she had simply called her grandson's parents/her daughter either to confirm or ask for help. I feel really badly for her. 
It would be _nice_ if companies took some corporate leadership to make it easier to for people to protect themselves. In this case, TD went through some cursory steps but there probably can be some improvement. But you can only go so far without the person giving up their autonomy and then opening the issues around that (What if she wanted the money for some potentially embarrassing reason? What if she wanted to buy something that her family doesn't approve out?) But the banks probably need to set up a system where some dual approval needs to obtained if withdrawing over a certain amount if they don't already have that option.

Personally, I let calls from numbers I don't recognize go to voice mail. If it's important enough, they'll leave a vm or try another number/way to get a hold of me. I also limited my social media presence, the info I post about myself, and who can access it. A lot of info is gleaned from people's social media.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Beaver101 said:


> ... there you got it but the "daughter" in this case is disputing that the bank has some liability when she withdrew that much money out at once. But the bank was only interested in protecting its self, not the customer (and overlooking she's a 90 year old senior who "lied" so easily too) with that standard release form. *Why couldn't the bank call up the daughter who was a joint owner of that account too?*


Why would a bank call up the daughter in a transaction that is structured in an "or" joint account? There is nothing here folks...nothing. 

When my aging mother got to the point of being easily swindled, bro and I made sure there was only a small amount of cash in any of her bank accounts (only enough to cover monthly expenses) so that any attempt to swindle had limited damage. Same with her credit card... very small $1000 credit limit. It is not hard to organize things to minimize damage.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We did the same when our mother reached that age. Lowered the limits, moved funds to accounts that could not be accessed by a card.

Why didn't the teller call the daughter? Really, have you been in a bank lately? This was a joint account. The teller asked, the lady responded (with a lie). The bank did what they were supposed to-gave her the money from her account. There is no cheese here. I am certainly no fan of Canadian banks however they are not mind readers or social workers.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Some are talking about, why didn't she phone her grandson's family. The answer to that is in the article. Her 'grandson' asked her not to tell them. I don't think it is hard to understand why a Grandmother would comply with that request and not want to get him in trouble with his parents. I'm sure many Grandparents have not 'ratted out' their Grandchildren from time to time and covered up for them.

What does seem clear to me is that she did not recognize her 'grandson's' voice. That indicates to me that she has not spent much time in his company and raises the question in my mind as to just how much involvement her children and grandchildren have in her life in general. Not every family is close. I might suspect that the family don't spend much time with her in general. Blaming the bank may well be a good way to shift the guilt from their own shoulders.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I think that there is a growing trend to blame others for some of our self inflicted misfortunes. This is a perfect example. Cannot in a million years imagine why anyone would place blame on the bank.


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## Earl (Apr 5, 2016)

I'm intrigued by this "sucker's list". How do I get on it? I want to play with these scammers lol


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Send money to one scammer, there's an entrance fee.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> I think that there is a growing trend to blame others for some of our self inflicted misfortunes. This is a perfect example. Cannot in a million years imagine why anyone would place blame on the bank.


I wouldn't call it a growing trend, I would call it a cultural norm these days. No one wants to take responsibility for their own actions.


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## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> I wouldn't call it a growing trend, I would call it a cultural norm these days. No one wants to take responsibility for their own actions.


Good luck with that one if you are a non elderly straight white male (Christian or atheist)-aint gonna happen.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Big Kahuna said:


> Good luck with that one if you are a non elderly straight white male (Christian or atheist)-aint gonna happen.


 ... wow, I'm out of words on this response ... so sad.


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