# Re-visit the Annual cost to live In Canada while retired: comments please



## Canadafan (Oct 19, 2014)

I did address this about 5 years ago & re-looked again couple of years ago.
I will be retiring essentially as soon as the paperwork is done.

First, I appreciate a retired couple can spend anythhing at all on travel. So that is off the table as a discussion point.
As well: major home renovations can also become a huge one time capital draw, but not re-occouring expense
Assuming a paid off house & already retired.

My question is on the basic fixed expenses
Food, Utilities, property tax/maintenance. Entertainment, personal needs, clothing. Medical/dental plans, Car operating costs and replacment.
All numbers are *net after tax.*
Note: I find the biggest cost is that of food?

Without getting into details, I come up with $70k/year, including everything except travel, and major house renovations.
Inflation & assets are not part of the equation as this is relative to now. 
BTW, our expected income stream will be higher than the $70K net, but that is my expected annual costs.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Seems high. If I’m not mistaken thats more than the average Canadian median income.......and consider the mortgage and education costs non-retirees have. If others agree, perhaps we should break down the major categories to see where the differences lie. Good exercise.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Canadafan said:


> Without getting into details, I come up with $70k/year, including everything except travel, and major house renovations.
> Inflation & assets are not part of the equation as this is relative to now.


Yeah, you're gonna have to get into details because that number is really high.

ltr


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Looking at the past 4 months and extrapolating that out to a year, my spending for a household of 2 is 33k (not including income tax expense, but including property tax and all other expenses, home is paid off, car loan for $400+/mo). 

To be fair this does not include any restaurant spending (or very minimal, a few take-outs), due to COVID-19. 

We do try to live frugally.


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## Canadafan (Oct 19, 2014)

so based on quick response the $70K/year is a very safe number.
Basic /year= $35,500
Utilities, IT 475/mo.
House Taxes/Insur 434/mo.
Food 1,200/mo.
Cell phone(s) , 150/m
Car, Reg, Insur,maintnce 700/mo.

Additional costs = $10,560 /yr
Extended Medical/dental 500/mo.
Car replacment/depreciation 300/mo
Life insurance $80/mo

Additional Lifestyle $20,000/year ( rounded up need some savings)
House upkeep 150/mo....general house MTC
Personal Care 200/mo...anything not food, toothpaste etc
Entertainment 360/mo.
Day trips,** weddings, random hobbies, projects 300/mo.
Gifts, Shopping 200/mo.
Fitness club, two people 110/mo
***Clothing and anything we dont think about that gets paid for 265/mo

Total $35,500+ $10,560+ $20,000 = $66,060

I rounded up to $70K because there is always something we forget or can come up.
** Few appreciate a simple drive out in the car for a day, throw in lunch and some sights easy a few $100/day.
*** I understand there are buffers built into this overall number. Not to mention my $4K rounding upwards. ..but one needs to be high on expenses & low on income expactations and in the end things will balance out.
A retiree I spoke to about 5 years ago figured his all-in was around $50K: further investigation. That did not include any car replacment, travel, or random things to help the kids out. 
The number on further review became well above $70K/year.
Hence my question to this very wide & deep board.


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## prisoner24601 (May 27, 2018)

Canadafan said:


> I did address this about 5 years ago & re-looked again couple of years ago.
> I will be retiring essentially as soon as the paperwork is done.
> 
> First, I appreciate a retired couple can spend anythhing at all on travel. So that is off the table as a discussion point.
> ...


Based on last 6 months, we are trending to spend just under $86K this year:
Housing (everything including taxes, utilities, IT, maint., landscaping, furniture etc) = $4,685 per mo.
Food (including dining out) = $1,593 per mo.
Transportation (1 older car) = $372 per mo.
Personal (misc, haircuts, etc..) = $506 per month

No debts, no travel but still landscaping our new house to the tune of about $15k of the above amount this year


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## HermesHermes (Mar 24, 2017)

Ask someone on welfare or disability how they do it. Like me. I live on less than CAD $850 per month in the second highest metropolitan area for rents. I made myself valuable to get a sweet deal on rent - $460 per month for a rented room in someone else's condo, utilities included (OK, so you own your own home - great). Mass transit and buses due to subsidized bus pass. Never eat out. 80% of groceries from food bank. Only buy real food, nothing processed (poor nutritional value). Garden if you have the space. Buy clothing at thrift stores on senior days or yearly sales. No alcohol and very rare use of cannabis. My intention is to house sit when I am in Canada in order to pay no rent. Live like a monk basically.

It's not easy but it is about adjusting expenditures to one's income. I have also lived on $2500-3000 per month when I was flush.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

In case this data helps, I'm a single person and spend 38K a year (partially retired). However, I rent an apartment so this figure includes 20K for rent.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Looks pretty normal for an upper middle class lifestyle, based on my observations. Do I think it's high? Yes. 

But there is no set "cost" to retire in Canada... it all depends on what you can afford and what you're willing to sacrifce.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I agree there is no set number. For spouse and I, retired over 14 years and in early '70s, we are currently about $38k YTD to June 30. It would have been a bit higher had covid-19 not kept us from some consumer spending. I would consider $80k/yr about right as a base spend to budget for (not including income taxes).

Last year we were closer to $120k with some house renos and a trip overseas.

Added much later: Yes, we tap into invested capital from time to time. Who is it for otherwise? We withdraw along the guidelines of VPW (Variable Percentage Withdrawal) but not at the maximum factors in the VPW table.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

I’m a little surprised at these numbers....not a lot surprised....just a little.

for the retirees......have your expenses gone up in retirement vs your earning years? Are most drawing down on capital or not? How much do vacations account for this and how extravagant are they?

my income peaked at about 130 during my working years and was 100+ for the last 8 years of work. After numerous payroll deductions for pensions, health insurance and stock plans, I took home about 60 year. Probably spent most of that each year but that’s with a family of 4 in a large metropolitan home in the GTA (With a mortgage) and 2 cars. Included annual trips to Florida and NYC or other short getaways and all-inclusive carribean type vacation every 3-5 years. 

seeing expenses of 80-120k a year. Wow. Should be called Affluent Money Forum. Congrats! It it does highlight the disparity that exists in Canada when the median family income is less than your retirement expenses. Other then much nicer and longer vacations, I’m not sure I know how to spend 80+k a year. I need to hear more. 


here are some stats.

Released: 2020-02-24

The median after-tax income of Canadian families and unattached individuals was $61,400 in 2018, virtually unchanged from 2017.
For non-senior families, where the highest income earner was under 65 years of age, the median after-tax income was $91,600 in 2018, up $2,300 from 2017. Within this group, couples with children saw their median after-tax income increase by $2,700 to $101,900 in 2018.
The median after-tax income of senior families, where the highest income earner was 65 years of age or older, was $63,500 in 2018, virtually unchanged from 2017. For unattached individuals, the median after-tax income was $30,700 in 2018, unchanged from 2017.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

prisoner24601 said:


> Based on last 6 months, we are trending to spend just under $86K this year:
> Housing (everything including taxes, utilities, IT, maint., landscaping, furniture etc) = $4,685 per mo.
> Food (including dining out) = $1,593 per mo.
> Transportation (1 older car) = $372 per mo.
> ...


how often do you dine out? Fine dining?

we spend $800-$1000 month for a family of four.


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## Canadafan (Oct 19, 2014)

"I’m not sure I know how to spend 80+k a year. I need to hear more."
If you look a my previous reply, the $70K/year accounts for zero vacations.
Two decent vacations/year and that could easy be another $10K..Or one ten day cruise to Alaska including flights. Bring some family along and $10K would not cover.
BUT..my coments were to identify all-in costs , excluding vacations.
Seems to be all over the place.
would love to see some comparison to my previous chart?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Money172375 said:


> for the retirees......have your expenses gone up in retirement vs your earning years? Are most drawing down on capital or not? How much do vacations account for this and how extravagant are they?
> 
> my income peaked at about 130 during my working years and was 100+ for the last 8 years of work. After numerous payroll deductions for pensions, health insurance and stock plans, I took home about 60 year. Probably spent most of that each year but that’s with a family of 4 in a large metropolitan home in the GTA (With a mortgage) and 2 cars. Included annual trips to Florida and NYC or other short getaways and all-inclusive carribean type vacation every 3-5 years.
> 
> seeing expenses of 80-120k a year. Wow. Should be called Affluent Money Forum. Congrats! It it does highlight the disparity that exists in Canada when the median family income is less than your retirement expenses. Other then much nicer and longer vacations, I’m not sure I know how to spend 80+k a year. I need to hear more.


Retirement expenses for us have gone up substantially versus "empty nester" years approaching retirement...because they can. Many empty nesters no longer fund children at home, no longer have mortgages, no longer borrow money for anything including autos, and don't have a lot of time if still working to spend a lot of money. They are still putting it away for retirement. That is not ALL empty nesters of course, but can be professionals and managers who are now in their peak earning years and afford to do that.

I made a comment that $80k was base spend but that includes some good entertainment, dining out, and generally enjoying life, be it golf, or some other hobby. It only goes up substantially if one does substantial home renos in, for example, $25-40k bites, or one goes on a $25-40k luxury vacation. It is, for the most part, dependent on ability AND willingness to fund such activities. The primary takeaway should be $80k can fund an enjoyable retirement.

Added: It is not hard to spend $25-50k on a luxury vacation if one really wants to do it. Business class air travel and a 5 star safari to Africa will do it. Two weeks on a 100 passenger 'yacht' combing the shores of Costa Rica and Panama can be substantial, as well as a 21 day all inclusive Scenic cruise and land trip in Vietnam and Cambodia. Two weeks of all inclusive in Secrets of Puerto Vallarta will be in the order of $10k excluding air fare. At our age, if we are going to punish our bodies traveling, it will be 'lowest punishment' options or don't go at all. I'd rather stay home than travel at a modest level.


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## prisoner24601 (May 27, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> how often do you dine out? Fine dining?
> 
> we spend $800-$1000 month for a family of four.


Maybe once or twice a week. Not fine dining. Our 'food' number includes booze and anything from the grocery store or drug store so household dry goods, soap, shampoo etc.


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## RussT (Jul 11, 2016)

My wife and I have spent on average about $57,000 per year (not counting income tax) over the last 5 years since we retired. I think we are more frugal than our friends, but we not really frugal in the broad sense of the word.

This includes major expenses such as cars and home maintenance. We have no debts. We seldom dine out and never order in. Neither of us drinks alcoholic beverages. We don't take expensive vacations. We have two older cars. Our net worth continues to grow. Don't we sound like a fun couple? 

Also included in the $57,000 is the annual cost of maintaining a summer cottage ($3,000-$4,000). This is our vacation spending, and it provides enjoyment to our kids, grandkids and friends as well. I suppose to be fair we should include the opportunity cost of the value of the cottage less capital appreciation. That probably adds roughly $3,000 per year to our annual cost, so maybe $60,000 per year is a more comparable number.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

I got by quite well on $2500 a month (paid off house) until my girlfriend moved in. Now we're spending about $3,500 a month.


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## eleanor (May 3, 2014)

RussT said:


> My wife and I have spent on average about $57,000 per year (not counting income tax) over the last 5 years since we retired. I think we are more frugal than our friends, but we not really frugal in the broad sense of the word.
> 
> This includes major expenses such as cars and home maintenance. We have no debts. We seldom dine out and never order in. Neither of us drinks alcoholic beverages. We don't take expensive vacations. We have two older cars. Our net worth continues to grow. Don't we sound like a fun couple?
> 
> Also included in the $57,000 is the annual cost of maintaining a summer cottage ($3,000-$4,000). This is our vacation spending, and it provides enjoyment to our kids, grandkids and friends as well. I suppose to be fair we should include the opportunity cost of the value of the cottage less capital appreciation. That probably adds roughly $3,000 per year to our annual cost, so maybe $60,000 per year is a more comparable number.


I could have written this post, minus the cottage, and we don't travel at all. Nice to see another "boring", but probably just as happy as us, couple!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Hence why no 'one size' fits all. It is highly situational depending on desired lifestyle.


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

Mid 70's and retired 19 yrs. While I don't keep detailed records we spend around $60/65,000. PA after tax which usually includes around $10,000. on travel, house upgrades, and ski condo costs. We both have active lifestyles locally and travel is not that enjoyable anymore. Seldom eat out and we both enjoy our sports, garden, home, and some socializing. Expenses are met without drawdown of capital which remains pretty well steady with a 25% Cdn Equity, 65% GIC, 10% sundry weighting. Small pension, CPP (1), and OAS (2).


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

70-75K after tax depending on where we travel. We typically do an international trip in the fall and another in the winter. 7-9 weeks each.. Plus some short last minute ones in between. What we spend in any one year depends on where and how we travel.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

We have been forced to save like mad so far this year. Stayed longer in Mexico, saving big bucks, not eating out much saving more, fall trip,to Europe cancelled. Our biggest expense has been subsidizing Westjet and Air Canada with interest free loans!


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Same here. We are surprised at how little we are spending. We have not used cash money since returning to Canada in late March. It has all been tap and go or on line credit card.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I'm not sure what question/s if any you are actually trying to ask Canadafan. People retire on all different income levels obviously and all I see you saying is your expected level will be $70k for what you are including. If that is what you see it will cost you for what you include, then what is there for anyone to say about that? No one here can say, 'oh no, you won't spend that much on item X' or 'oh no, you will spend more than that on item Y.'

What is it that you are really looking to hear here?


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

Along with about 33% of Canadian seniors (= >65), my brother, retired in his 70's, lives on OAS, CPP, GIS and the GST rebate. His 2019 income was 21000 (I do his tax filing). Fortunately he owns a strata apt, such as it is, but most here wouldn't want to live in it. JAG would probably buy it for his stable of rentals for maybe $65K max. Bro also manages to keep a very old car running. The strata's insurance just went from 200K yr to 700K yr. His share of the increase $2200.
Also, fortunately, he lives in Canada because he's making frequent use of the medical system.

Is this the kind of retirement in Canada you were referring to CanadaFan?


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

I'm curious how our non-travel spending will evolve in retirement. During Phase 1 when I'm retired but the missus is still working, I can see myself wanting to spend a few more dollars towards social activities (eating out/drinking and entertainment). But I don't see that really heavily impacting our non-travel spend of about $35-40k/yr currently. During Phase 2 when the missus is retired too, because we're hoping to travel quite a bit, I'm thinking our non-travel spend will be reduced. However, I'm also curious when and how much our health and medical related spends will ramp up. Part of that hit will come when the missus is retired because she has such a comprehensive health benefits package from her workplace that covers so much right now.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

milhouse said:


> I'm curious how our non-travel spending will evolve in retirement. During Phase 1 when I'm retired but the missus is still working, I can see myself wanting to spend a few more dollars towards social activities (eating out/drinking and entertainment). But I don't see that really heavily impacting our non-travel spend of about $35-40k/yr currently. During Phase 2 when the missus is retired too, because we're hoping to travel quite a bit, I'm thinking our non-travel spend will be reduced. However, I'm also curious when and how much our health and medical related spends will ramp up. Part of that hit will come when the missus is retired because she has such a comprehensive health benefits package from her workplace that covers so much right now.


Milhouse, my experience is that 'you can't see there from here' and generally speaking there's not much point in trying to do so. I also suggest that 'what is is' in that however much income you have in retirement, you will probably find ways to spend it. At the same time if you have less income, you will probably find ways to live within it.

People retire on as little as Retiredguy's example of his brother's $21k per year. While not ideal, nevertheless they do so and many of them do so and still manage to remain happy with their life. If you think about it, that is the whole point, to be able to be happy with your life. Money really does not guarantee happiness and lack of it really does not guarantee someone will not be happy.

Just work on being happy with what you have.


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## Canadafan (Oct 19, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> I'm not sure what question/s if any you are actually trying to ask Canadafan. People retire on all different income levels obviously and all I see you saying is your expected level will be $70k for what you are including. If that is what you see it will cost you for what you include, then what is there for anyone to say about that? No one here can say, 'oh no, you won't spend that much on item X' or 'oh no, you will spend more than that on item Y.'
> 
> What is it that you are really looking to hear here?


Not a complicated question:
What do "You" think is a reasobale amount to live on/year on an on-going basis, excluding travel.
Not asking about income source(s), asking about "cost of living", while retired in canada.
Macleans did an awsome survey a few years back & came up with 3 "averages"
Mr & Mrs, average, Mr & Mrs, thrifty & Mr & Mrs high end.Not a hard question....at all.
I know full well the numbers are all over the place. Quite intersting to see & analyze what people think they need vs what they actually spend etc.


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## Canadafan (Oct 19, 2014)

Retiredguy said:


> Along with about 33% of Canadian seniors (= >65), my brother, retired in his 70's, lives on OAS, CPP, GIS and the GST rebate. His 2019 income was 21000 (I do his tax filing). Fortunately he owns a strata apt, such as it is, but most here wouldn't want to live in it. JAG would probably buy it for his stable of rentals for maybe $65K max. Bro also manages to keep a very old car running. The strata's insurance just went from 200K yr to 700K yr. His share of the increase $2200.
> Also, fortunately, he lives in Canada because he's making frequent use of the medical system.
> 
> Is this the kind of retirement in Canada you were referring to CanadaFan?


Just asking the question, I understand there is a wide level of needs & lifestyles. No right or wrong answer.
The answers become what they are. & enough people give some data , I can compile an average.so to speak.


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## Canadafan (Oct 19, 2014)

here is the orriginal Macleans stroy that prompted my blog.
It is bit out of date.








Here's the real cost of retirement happiness - Macleans.ca


As part of MoneySense's financial literacy week, here's a look at three different budgets to help you plan your spending more thoughtfully




www.macleans.ca






Moving the 3 levels forward to today equate to couple retired and living in Canada), details are shown in the story
Subtracting the travel & adding 2%/year inflation comes to as follows: all after taxes
basic retirment, $35K
Medium level $51K
Luxury $72k

So far, not enough data to equate to any averages from this thread yet.
Another point: There are countless books, lessons and "financial advisors" that will forcast big piles of money in X years. Very few of them look at the spend side of the equation.
Why does it matter. Yes ther are many who do not have control over the retirment income stream. You live on what you have.
However, there is a larger amount of folks who save like crazy all though a working life span & end up with more than they need. Options the become, spend more, give away to kids now, or leave an inheritance.
BTW, for reference, I too know people who live on much less then the numbers mentioned and much more.
I heard a stroy of a family of ten million of networth that went broke.
I have a family member who died with zero, networth and not enough to cover funeral.
So any extream can be found. Looking for averages.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

A few years ago, I asked a dozen fellow retirees what their annual spend was. The average was $70k for a couple with a 3BR, 2 car garage, paid off mortgage. I am sure the spending matched their income.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Canadafan said:


> Not a complicated question:
> What do "You" think is a reasobale amount to live on/year on an on-going basis, excluding travel.
> Not asking about income source(s), asking about "cost of living", while retired in canada.
> Macleans did an awsome survey a few years back & came up with 3 "averages"
> ...


Well the question may seem simple to you Canadafan but the answer is not. What an individual would consider 'reasonable' will by definition apply only to that individual and you cannot average them out to get an 'average reasonable'. You are looking to come up with an average of something that cannot be averaged since it only applies to an individual.

If you wan to know what is the average Canadian income in retirement, that can be quite easily found but it tells you nothing about how happy someone is with their individual retirement income. I fail to see what trying to average out what a given set of individuals such as you find here on this forum will tell you in regard to what YOU will find to be 'reasonable'.

The only worthwhile number for someone nearing retirement to try to find is the number at which they as an individual (or couple obviously) will be HAPPY with their income in retirement. What others are happy with is meaningless, regardless of how many individuals you ask.


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## Canadafan (Oct 19, 2014)

Re long time ago , "average useless": I cant argue that statement, however. Last time I checked this is a Canadain Money Forum: & within the context of a retirment thread.
Look at Kcowen answer: "a few years ago, I asked a dozen fellow retirees what their annual spend was. The average was $70k for a couple with a 3BR, 2 car garage, paid off mortgage. I am sure the spending matched their income."
That is a fair & reasonable answer.
I agree it is a snapshot & strickly a math calculation.
I like playng with math & with enough samples the "average" will come out to become what the majorty of Canadains are retiring on.Who..contribute to this site & are of the mindset to be involved wth a Canadian Investor chat room.
Our lowest answer so far has been $21K/year. Our highest was $120/year....on those 2 samplease alone the math average is $70,500: more or less what Mr. Kcowen said, based in his survey.
An extream ,but averages do mean a lot, provided the samples make sense.
The point is: Most people would like to retire/live on as much as they can get. Very few would say "oh I have too much", even the very wealthy.
Back to our survey:
Why does it matter? is essentially your question. 
For those who have what they have & are retired. The answer is meaningless. On the high end of well paid, well saved individuals $150K/year migh be what they have and so be it.
Conversly we have heard from those not as well off living on Gov plans only.
Where the question matters is for those presently in-planning, working, saving hoping some day to retire.
How much do they need?
Well if the Canadain average/year is 70K & they live an average canadain lifestyle then $70k/year should be well enough.
Many, many have lived their lives struggling to make ends meet & will retire on much less than the average obviously.
I know an individual who just sold his 6500 Ft2 house to downsize to a 2500Ft condo on the water front. He is obviouslly not average & would not retire on $70K/year.
His wife never keeps cloths, longer than one season. 
I have clothes I bought 8 years ago, still looking fine.
So: Mr Longtime ago, if you dont want to be part of the process, I welcome your inputs & opinions.I do ask however, let the process play out & see what we come up with.
Stats canada runs simialr numbers all the time. 'average cost sof food, shelter, gas on & on" Please look at the Mcleans article I linked to, it explains my quest.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Canadafan said:


> Moving the 3 levels forward to today equate to couple retired and living in Canada), details are shown in the story
> Subtracting the travel & adding 2%/year inflation comes to as follows: all after taxes
> basic retirment, $35K
> Medium level $51K
> Luxury $72k


I would say that's roughly in the ball park although of course everyone will have different circumstances. People who waste money, keep buying news cars, and eat out a lot may struggle to have a "basic" retirement on $72k. Another couple that likes cooking, buys used cars and keeps them a while, and takes inexpensive trips can live a fairly luxurious retirement on the "medium" level.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Canadafan said:


> Where the question matters is for those presently in-planning, working, saving hoping some day to retire.
> How much do they need?


The way I approach this question is relative to my current lifestyle. So in simple terms ...

- Expenses for current lifestyle
Current home, food, auto, etc basically "all in" cost. (Average over years if you like)
Include any expected maintenance and/or improvement costs not covered under "current".

- Now add in projected expenses for retirement lifestyle.
Plan to buy a new(er) boat and do more fishing trips
New(er) car every 10 years, maybe a motorcycle or two.
Plan for 1 "big vacation" a year.

So your "current + projected" should give you a excellent ball park figure you need. No need to look at others or averages, that data doesn't really matter IMO.


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

32.4% of the over age 65 group in Canada receives the Guaranteed Income Supplement. No one gets it if their income exceeds;
Single $25956 (Canadians living in Canada, over 65, who qualify for OAS (10 yrs in Canada since age 18) are guaranteed $18358.92
Couple $39284

OAS is not included when calculating GIS, but in order to receive GIS you must be in receipt of OAS. The above figures include OAS.

CMFers know pretty much what costs are in Canada. Based on the above I think it reasonable to assume that a high percentage of the nearly 1/3 of Canadian seniors spend all of their income in retirement. So I would conclude “their” income which could range from (18358 for single up to 39284 for a couple) is the cost of retirement in Canada – for 1/3 of the retirees.

For (us) we own our home, no debts etc and I think we could sustain ourselves nicely on $40000 – (aftertax) Our actual spend however is much more than that because we do much more than just sustain our selves. You’ve excluded travel from the exercise. I have a cottage, boat, education gifts to my grandkids, plus other things as line items in my budget. I’ve been semi retired for 17 years and fully retired for more than 10. Our spend will always be substantially less than our income because part of what makes us comfortable (ok, call it happy in retirement) is having a bank account that will be there when any of life’s curve balls get thrown our way. Our retirement is not limited by this, it is enhanced.

You say yours is 70-75K after tax. Maybe explain by providing several line items how you arrive at that. What’s your basic number. If it’s 70-75 after tax. I’d say you're at the high end for basic expenses.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Canadafan said:


> Re long time ago , "average useless": I cant argue that statement, however. Last time I checked this is a Canadain Money Forum: & within the context of a retirment thread.
> Look at Kcowen answer: "a few years ago, I asked a dozen fellow retirees what their annual spend was. The average was $70k for a couple with a 3BR, 2 car garage, paid off mortgage. I am sure the spending matched their income."
> That is a fair & reasonable answer.
> I agree it is a snapshot & strickly a math calculation.
> ...


Well now you just seem to be changing the question you are asking. You asked what do people here consider is a 'reasonable' amount to retire on. That is an subjective question. 

Now you seem to just be asking, 'what is the amount you are or plan to retire on and that I can use to come up with an average on.' That is an objective question. It is also a question that there is really no need to ask since that information is easily available from sites such as Stats Canada.

The Macleans article that you have now linked uses the word 'happiness' in the title. That is a subjective word. In the article, the writer writes, "_ In my view, you should be able to live a middle-class retirement lifestyle spending $42,000 to $72,000 a year per couple (including what you pay in income taxes), assuming you have a paid-for home and no debt."_

I would have no argument with that, it is after all simply the writer's 'view'. In other words it is his individual OPINION of what is a 'reasonable' amount of income to have in retirement. So what? It may differ from MY view or from YOUR view. The only 'view' that I would suggest you are interested in is YOUR view. 

People often seem to think that everyone else is like them. What you consider 'reasonable' is what I would consider reasonable and vice versa. So if you know what I and 9 others consider reasonable, then you could average that out and come up with a number that YOU would find reasonable when the time comes for you to retire. You could plan your reasonable based on our reasonables. That is simply not TRUE.

Your reasonable applies only to you and you cannot use the 'reasonable' as defined by others to figure out your reasonable.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time here Canadafan. What I am saying to you is that you are barking up the wrong tree and would be better spending your time and energy on figuring out what YOU will need for YOU to be happy in your retirement. Forget asking what anyone else needs.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Maybe it would be better if you asked another way around Canadafan.

Why don't you tell us what things you think you will need to be happy in your retirement and then we can comment on what it might cost you to have those things.

For example, if you say you want to afford steak at home one night a week or at a restaurant one night a week, that will affect your income needed. If you say you want to take a cheap package holiday once a year vs. spend 3-4 months in each year travelling the world and staying in 4-5 star hotels, that will affect the income you need etc.

In other words, describe to us how you see yourself living both at home and if you travel after retirement. Will you be living in and maintaining a McMansion or a modest 2 bedroom condo in a non-major city? Will you be also maintaining a cottage or boat or RV but not spending money on travel etc.

If you describe your vision of your retirement then I am quite sure posters hear can give you input on what it will cost to make that vision a reality. YOUR vision, not ours.


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## Tayls77 (Dec 10, 2019)

I actually think the 70k is a pretty good number. We are 4 months into early retirement, no debt of any kind and we are on target to spend about 70-75k this year excluding a major reno and a new car. I had actually thought we would need closer to 100k after taxes, background, we are 56 and enjoy a pretty active lifestyle.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Tayls77 said:


> I actually think the 70k is a pretty good number. We are 4 months into early retirement, no debt of any kind and we are on target to spend about 70-75k this year excluding a major reno and a new car. I had actually thought we would need closer to 100k after taxes, background, we are 56 and enjoy a pretty active lifestyle.


It's a good number for YOU is what you are saying Tayls77. That doesn't mean it is a good or bad number for anyone else. Not everyone is the same in what they want to do in their retirement, we all differ. Or at least I hope we do, otherwise we must all be near clones.


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## Tayls77 (Dec 10, 2019)

Longtimeago said:


> It's a good number for YOU is what you are saying Tayls77. That doesn't mean it is a good or bad number for anyone else. Not everyone is the same in what they want to do in their retirement, we all differ. Or at least I hope we do, otherwise we must all be near clones.


Yep its a a good number for me, but as someone who just went through trying to make the retirement decision, I know the more hard numbers I could find the more reassuring it was. Luckily I found lots of posts that said 50k was enough so I knew that with what I had I would be in better shape than "enough".


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just for fun, consider this guy I know and have known for over 30 years.

He decided to retire in his early 40s. Not for him 'chasing the goal' and 'climbing the ladder'. When he made his decision he hardly had the proverbial 'pot to xxxx in.' But he had a house with a mortgage, a 32 foot sailboat and he was single.

So he converted the garage of his house into a small studio style apartment for himself, rented out the house sans garage for some income (low mortgage meant rent was enough to cover payments and still provide a small income) and took off on his sailboat at the end of summer. Across Lake Ontario from Toronto, through the canals and down the Hudson to NYC and then on into the Intracostal Waterway all the way down Florida. His expenses were minimal, groceries and moorings primarily.

His first winter in Florida, he found that there was a decent demand for those who could work on boats and particularly for engine work. He is a mechanical engineer and an all round handy person. This resulted in him making money quite often without even trying. Someone told someone, 'he can probably fix it.' and someone would come asking for help. All cash in hand. He spent almost none of his meager income even that first winter.

For years he would winter along the Florida coast and down into the islands and then take the boat out of the water, leave it stored and fly back to Toronto for summers, living in his garage. I think he only had 2 tenants in about 15 years. When on his boat, he would do boat work a day or two per week but only when he wanted to. He never tried to make money, just enough to pay his expenses.

Then he met a woman. Yup, we could have predicted that. He had actually accumulated more savings over those years and invested them. When they married, she was also an early retiree (divorced and sold a chain of small women's clothing shops in Florida), loved sailing and was living on her own boat. They sold both their boats and bought a bigger and more comfortable one for two. They've been sailing every winter since. He sold his house, they bought a cottage in the Muskokas and spend summers there.

My point is that someone can retire on very little income sometimes and be quite happy with that. At the same time, when we are retired, life does not stop and change happens just like it does at any other time in our lives. I know this guy has more income than they need and has had since he first retired and only had about $1k per month income.

Can you imagine what he has seen and done over the last 30 years of living his nomadic lifestyle?


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Each to their own. I want some room to stretch out. I have 600 sq ft of deck with a gazebo plus a 240 sq ft sunroom....trading that to live on a small cramped boat sounds like a miserable way to spend retirement.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Prairie Guy said:


> Each to their own. I want some room to stretch out. I have 600 sq ft of deck with a gazebo plus a 240 sq ft sunroom....trading that to live on a small cramped boat sounds like a miserable way to spend retirement.


Well it is indeed each to their own as you say Prairie Guy. You are obviously not a sailor. But I think you are missing the point. The example I give is about someone who retired with very little money but has enjoyed 30 years of experiences. It isn't about the size of the living space, it is about the LIVING someone does.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> Well it is indeed each to their own as you say Prairie Guy. You are obviously not a sailor. But I think you are missing the point. The example I give is about someone who retired with very little money but has enjoyed 30 years of experiences. It isn't about the size of the living space, it is about the LIVING someone does.


That's why I said "each to their own". The experience of living on a small boat appeals to some people but not all. But, it is possible to live cheaply either on a boat or in a house if you make the right choices. You can even own inexpensive waterfront property in the right area if you are willing to compromise on a few things.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

The LTA example of the sailor is extreme. Probably has no CPP or OAS. Paid little tax on his odd jobs earnings. But sailors do enjoy the nomadic life. In PV, there were many sailors who stopped in PV on their way around the world and never left. All anecdotes.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

These threads are very difficult to respond to because everything is anecdotal and subjective to the experiences and wants and needs to the individual.

I am still away from retirement, but have been involved with my parents retirement almost as long as I was an adult. I know their finances and estate very well, as I almost do all of the management. I have already learned a lot from them that I will carry on into my retirement. Here are some considerations with spending:


In the beginning of retirement. more may be spent because you have more time and are able to do things. My dad retired at 54, they were out doing things all the time. Travel is more of an option, and getting through the bucket list. There are extra expenses with renovations/moving homes, hobbies, etc. People seem to want a newer car in this time. We are finding the same with my in laws who retired a few years ago.
Things seem to slow down a little more depending on health maybe around 75. My parents expenses went drastically down as they liked to stay closer to home, hang out with friends/family, and just seem to settle into more of a routing. My parents lived on under $40K a year, and they never went without. Food costs seem to go down, as seniors just don't eat as much. My parents could share a meal at a restaurant with friends and still have left overs.
The next phase is when they need more help. If they don't want to move (as my parents do not), you are paying more for services such as cleaning, lawn services, maintenance. Health care costs go up as the cost of meds are more. Their other expense are pretty even.
Then another phase is if assisted living is required. If only one of you needs its, you have almost all the fixed costs as a couple, but now add in the case of care facilities. For a partially subsidized, it's well over $30K a year, plus my dad's living costs at home. They now live on about $6K a year. If my dad has to go to the home, then it will be closer to $75K for both.

I didn't include travel and major purchases because for at least the 10-15 years, the kids have paid for most of their travel and really large expenses as our gift. 

The reason I write this, is I would plan that your spending will not be a flat line as there are different stages of retirement. Spending will change over time, so asking for the changes will be dependent on what phase of retirement one is in.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I agree retirement expenses will not be flat line. PA describes ourselves and fellow cohort friends/family quite accurately. Few of us in our circle are past 75 yet, but we can see the slow down with those approaching 75 and those we do know >75. What happens after that is almost entirely health dependent but there really are few people >80 traveling to exotic places, or anywhere out of country, if for no other reason than health insurance. Obviously, an 80 year old can still spend a lot of money within Canada at Fairmont resorts and the like, but it's more of an exception rather than the rule. One also loses interest (and ability) in flashy cars by 80+ too.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Everyone's retirement is an individual thing. That is indeed why any attempt to suggest something like, 'what's a good average number' is pointless in my opinion. There is no such thing as an average retiree. Or at least I hope there isn't. If there is, that's a sad thing to contemplate. A world of near clones in how they live their lives.

Spending does differ over the course of someone's retirement as noted but that also depends on HOW someone lives in their retirement. The sailor I mentioned as an example has had his expenses increase over the entire time because the basic lifestyle he was happy to live when he first retired in his early 40s is no longer what he is happy with. My own retirement costs have increased over my entire years of retirement, just like his. 

Health is also a major factor in how income needs change as noted but again they are individual. At 74, I still have had no medical costs to deal with whatsoever. I'm still healthy as is my wife, so touch wood on that one. I hope I continue on and just don't wake up one morning. 

What I find in all this is that people seem to keep thinking of retirement as something where you come up with a number somehow and then that's it. Somehow you will know if the number is going to be enough or not, no matter what happens to you. Even those who retire at 65 can reasonably expect to live another 20 years or more. How can anyone think they can know what will happen over the course of 20+ years? It's impossible to predict.

So, as I see it, all you can do is retire when you are ready at whatever age if you have enough income to live the life you want to live today. Whatever happens tomorrow, next year or a decade from now is just something you will have to deal with THEN just as you have had to deal with whatever has happened in your life up until today. Deal with today, today and deal with tomorrow, tomorrow.

When the sailor in my example, retired with around $1000 a month of income, he had no way of knowing how much income he would have or need years later. Kcowan notes, he probably has no CPP or OAS. That could have turned out to be the case although it isn't actually but so what? He did what he wanted to do at the time and could afford to do it. He simply decided to let tomorrow take care of tomorrow. Perhaps that attitude is just too far outside the confort zone of some people. But it has worked out fine for him and should it not perhaps make some people ask themselves, why am I apparently so sure it couldn't work out for me?

I also wonder if we were to ask that sailor, what if it had not worked out and you were homeless and destitute today? What might he answer? 'Yes, you're right, I made a bad mistake and now I am paying for it.' Or would he say, 'yes, your right, I'm homeless today BUT I have had 30 years of experiences I would not trade for the security some people seem to value more.'

Plugging Along mentions the 'bucket list'. I've always found that interesting to think about since I first heard the term. I have no bucket list and never have had. I'm pretty sure my sailor acquaintance hasn't had one either. Everything we have wanted to do we have done when we wanted to do them. I think 'bucket lists' may be appropriate to refer to for people who wait till 65 to retire but far less appropriate for people who retire at a much earlier age. I can't imagine someone who retires in their 30s or 40s having a bucket list when they get to 65. In a sense, I see a bucket list as an admission of failure to do what you wanted to do in your life. No doubt that statement will upset some people. LOL


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## seh (Nov 10, 2014)

As Plugging Along says "I would plan that your spending will not be a flat line", and truer words have never been spoken. None of us know if/when we'll be suddenly hit with the surprise $10k basement & driveway sewer replacement job, or the $15k dental implants & crowns, or even the $175k/yr. round the clock caregivers. As Mike Tyson said: "Every boxer has a plan, until they get punched in the face!".


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## Canadafan (Oct 19, 2014)

seh said:


> As Plugging Along says "I would plan that your spending will not be a flat line", and truer words have never been spoken. None of us know if/when we'll be suddenly hit with the surprise $10k basement & driveway sewer replacement job, or the $15k dental implants & crowns, or even the $175k/yr. round the clock caregivers. As Mike Tyson said: "Every boxer has a plan, until they get punched in the face!".


Clearly "things happen", however my question was "what is your expected spend/year for consistant expenses" such as accomidations, food, utilities, entertainment etc: excluding travel..which we all agree can be any number. Regarding the "surprise sewer replacment" or any surprise household maintence. If you know your residence , there should be no or little surprises.
Houses need new a new roof eventually, a new furnace, water heater etc etc.Agreed things do pop up , but not on a consistant basis.
Myself, I took into consideration, the lifecycle of roof, furnace..the two big hitters. Divide by the years left in the home and account for that.
Some folks talk about "random" events like you have zero control of the world around you and are left to float around without a plan.
I get a kick out of people who fret when their property tax bill comes due. Like it was some invasion from area 51.
If you have lived in that house for any length of time ( we are talking retirement here), the propery tax comes every year more or less the same amount + some increase.
So account for that in your numbers.Not rocket science.
Back to the original question: My estimate for an annual after tax spend, was all-in at $70K. & that does include contingencies for the "house mantenance" car replacement & medical/dental coverage.
Those who have replied, a very sincer thank you.
The numbers are 'on average" close to the $70 K I mentioned. Some higher, some lower.
I will run a tabled review probably in a few weeks when more replies come in.
Those with philosphical answers again, thanks for the wisdom. I do however offer the rule of averages....Yes random things happen, some good some bad. However assuming one does not change lifestyle much, the good & bad costs/savings will average out.
Regarding lifcycle "retirment phases"...very much appreciated.
The assumption of the question was 
A retired couple, living in a paid off house. When we get to the costly retirement home/care phase, the house is sold and pays for any additional costs.
I have a 93 yr old relative. She is in just that scenario. Her cost all-in, mid $60K/year. includes all food, high end retiement home and 24 hour care.
I agree 100% we can not plan for our total lifecycle of retirment as things will change hopfully 30 years out.
BUT we can plan for the on-set early retirment costs, needs etc.
Countless studies have been done. As we age, some expense wil rise, but others will fall. 
BTW a roof lasts 30 years, about $10K replacement = $333/year. The $ must come from some place. Hard concept for some


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

I think that this virus places all forecasts of how Canadians will be living in jeopardy.
I believe that Canada might very well be on the verge of economic collapse. (Same with America.)
Every major city in North America is now bankrupt.
All public transit systems within any city with a population of 1 million or more is bankrupt.
The downtown core of all major cities in North America are ghostly streets.
I believe that Canada may need to seize bank deposits to finance a reovery.
Perhaps the Bank Of Canada will be allowed to print money just like the Federal Reserve.
Canada may need to purposely inflate itself out from under the debt load.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

calm said:


> I think that this virus places all forecasts of how Canadians will be living in jeopardy.
> I believe that Canada might very well be on the verge of economic collapse. (Same with America.)
> Every major city in North America is now bankrupt.
> All public transit systems within any city with a population of 1 million or more is bankrupt.
> ...


Your forum name belies this utter nonsense....

ltr


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Did I state a fact that was incorrect?
Or do we just disagree about how Canada will manage this virus problem?

I think all the facts I stated are correct. I can prove these facts.


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## Canadafan (Oct 19, 2014)

your comments have zero, not even cloe to anything to do with the thread


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Canadafan said:


> your comments have zero, not even cloe to anything to do with the thread


I think that when making plans for a retirement that one needs to consider the financial prospects of Canada especially when including CPP and whatever government programs.
That is why I mentioned or contributed my views.
This is a pretty precarious time to be planning a retirement lifestyle because of all the financial uncertainty.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

We need an emoji for handing out Valium to certain posters.

There is, and will be, further economic disruption in a number of ways. Don't underestimate the ability of economies (business activity) to adapt to a new normal, whether that is switching to new products and services, dislocation and relocation, or whatever. In a few years, we will wonder what all the fuss was about.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

I did not say it was the end of the world.
I said that Canada is going to undergo huge economic stress during the next 2 or 3 years,
I think that there is going to be huge civil unrest.
I think the Canadian Dollar is going to be further devalued by at least 10 percent within 18 months.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

CAD has appreciated 9% since the depths of March (from 69 to 75 cents). Are you suggesting it is going back to 67-68 cents within 18 months? If that happens, I will gladly convert more USD to CAD like I did in March......


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

I believe that that the reality is that the U.S. Dollar has been devalued and has lost value against most all other major currencies.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

calm said:


> I believe that that the reality is that the U.S. Dollar has been devalued and has lost value against most all other major currencies.


So why would the loonie fall back very far from the current 75 cent level....if the USD is in the global currency doghouse? It could be argued the loonie could appreciate more against the USD.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

AltaRed said:


> So why would the loonie fall back very far from the current 75 cent level....if the USD is in the global currency doghouse? It could be argued the loonie could appreciate more against the USD.


Because of world instability, I suppose both views could be argued.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

Thanks to all who have shared their situations. Understandably there is no one size fits all, but a thread like this sure beats an article in the G&M. Some great real life information shared which can certainly help or reassure those that are close to making the transition to retirement.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

calm said:


> I did not say it was the end of the world.
> I said that Canada is going to undergo huge economic stress during the next 2 or 3 years,
> I think that there is going to be huge civil unrest ...


I'm not so pessimistic but time will tell.




calm said:


> ... I think the Canadian Dollar is going to be further devalued by at least 10 percent within 18 months.


And if it does go to 67 cents - what are the problems you see?
Plus why is worse than the old days of a 62 cent dollar?


Cheers


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

I had to check when the Canadian Dollar was near 62 cents. (January 21, 2002)
I think that everything we import will increase significantly. Especially meat and vegetables/fruit.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

calm said:


> I had to check when the Canadian Dollar was near 62 cents. (January 21, 2002)
> I think that everything we import will increase significantly. Especially meat and vegetables/fruit.


I remember well the years of the 'face planted' loonie... .mid-90s through to early 2000s. We all lived through it despite a significant portion of our consumer economy in particular being affected by 'high' import prices. It's not just fresh produce that is rather prominent to consumers due to weekly supermarket shopping but a wide proportion of the goods we consume. From oil pegged at world (USD) prices, to washing machines, electronics and even lumber. With free trade agreements, almost all products are priced on a global basis.

We have been no strangers to the impact of a 65 cent loonie and it surely was not a civilian-uprising-in-the-streets time of crisis. Sensationalism is simply fearmongering.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

AltaRed said:


> We have been no strangers to the impact of a 65 cent loonie and it surely was not a civilian-uprising-in-the-streets time of crisis. Sensationalism is simply fearmongering.


During my lifetime, I have learned that what happens in America will arrive in Canada within 5 years or less. Insurrection or civil unrest is going to arrive here.


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## Canadafan (Oct 19, 2014)

With or without Covid or any other political unrest, Global meltdown.....people rioting in the streets.Canadina Dollar. global warming, acid rain, ozone holes. Lions & Tigers & bears Oh my....
The question is still valid:
Some people will be close to or allready retired.
This is a "canadain Money form" with a sub-thread , called "retirment" , specically asking, what One would see as a reasonable retirment annual spend as follows:
1. Retired couple, middle class, paid off house.
2. Only consider re-occouring costs/expenses: Vactions are a very individual choice and could range from hundreds/yr to many thousands/year. So dont count vacations.
3. Source of income is not part of the question:
Recall data drom macleans article a few years back









Here's the real cost of retirement happiness - Macleans.ca


As part of MoneySense's financial literacy week, here's a look at three different budgets to help you plan your spending more thoughtfully




www.macleans.ca





This article does find the "average Canadian" ....based on surveys etc. Actually 3 averages,
I boiled out the vaction and came up with ( for 2010)..from the Mcleans article
Low budget 31K
Medium Budget $47K
Luxury Budgey $65K
Thise numbers were cira 2010: I used 2% inflation and came up with a 2020 comparison
Low = $34K
Medium = $52K
High = $72K

My original question start of this tread was "is $70K/year considered a good amount to retire on"...After taxes.

The Mcleans article suports that & as such a higher end number out of the list.
In addition, for those who did offer actual data, we have seen a range as high as $120++ and low as mid $30K. In Fairness I think the $120+ included travel or a second home.
Take-away???
There are shelves of books published on how the save for retirment & countless fomulas re-welth accumulation.
There are very few publications or avaible advice on how to de-accumulate wealth.
Those approaching retirement. AND I have heard the comment many times..." I dont know if I have enough" etc 
At leaste this is a yes vauge and country wide set of averages.

Please read the Mcleans article before commenting, it puts a lot of my comentary & data in perspective.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The Macleans article is not a bad 'characterization' of some reasonable examples. We are clearly in the 'Coopers' scenario but wouldn't consider it "luxury" or "moderately wealthy". I would call that scenario 'comfortable' in that it provides a number of optional things many/most senior couples circa 70 would aspire too. In our case, it is not spending on second homes nor spending as much as the Coopers on restaurants but we do spend more on travel. An annual travel budget for us would be $20k at the bottom end and $40-50k at the high end....albeit it is going to be next to zero now due to covid-19. Likewise, we are probably spending $25k per year on house upgrades and renos of one form or another. Both of those are discretionary of course and can be dialed out. 

The Coopers $80k is a pretty good reference point (excluding luxury travel and/or major home renos and/or new luxury vehicles every few years).


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> The Macleans article is not a bad 'characterization' of some reasonable examples. We are clearly in the 'Coopers' scenario but wouldn't consider it "luxury" or "moderately wealthy". I would call that scenario 'comfortable' in that it provides a number of optional things many/most senior couples circa 70 would aspire too. In our case, it is not spending on second homes nor spending as much as the Coopers on restaurants but we do spend more on travel. An annual travel budget for us would be $20k at the bottom end and $40-50k at the high end....albeit it is going to be next to zero now due to covid-19. Likewise, we are probably spending $25k per year on house upgrades and renos of one form or another. Both of those are discretionary of course and can be dialed out.
> 
> The Coopers $80k is a pretty good reference point (excluding luxury travel and/or major home renos and/or new luxury vehicles every few years).


Everything is relative to the individual's perception. Think of someone who earned $500k or more per year while working and what they would consider a 'reasonable income' in retirement. That's why questions of 'how much is reasonable' are meaningless except to the individual.

It's easy to Google and find out what the average Canadian retiree's income is but it tells you absolutely nothing about whether it is a 'reasonable' amount in retirement on or not. Here is what the Macleans article boils down to, "_*In my view,* you should be able to live a middle-class retirement lifestyle spending $42,000 to $72,000 a year per couple (including what you pay in income taxes), assuming you have a paid-for home and no debt."_

The first 3 words are all it is about, ONE person's view. Unless you are that person or a clone, it may be totally out to lunch in your view. I'm sure it would be totally out to lunch in the view of many people.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

As someone not to far off from joining the retirement ranks, my planning is in line with what AltaRed mentions. 7k to 8k a month plus extra for travel, keeping our house current and putting money aside for replacing vehicles. No second property, entertaining versus eating out. Enjoying a few hobbies,etc.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> The Macleans article is not a bad 'characterization' of some reasonable examples. We are clearly in the 'Coopers' scenario but wouldn't consider it "luxury" or "moderately wealthy". I would call that scenario 'comfortable' in that it provides a number of optional things many/most senior couples circa 70 would aspire too. In our case, it is not spending on second homes nor spending as much as the Coopers on restaurants but we do spend more on travel. An annual travel budget for us would be $20k at the bottom end and $40-50k at the high end....albeit it is going to be next to zero now due to covid-19. Likewise, we are probably spending $25k per year on house upgrades and renos of one form or another. Both of those are discretionary of course and can be dialed out.
> 
> The Coopers $80k is a pretty good reference point (excluding luxury travel and/or major home renos and/or new luxury vehicles every few years).


If I haven’t already congratulated, then I do now.

the vacation spend is just fascinating to me. I only know one person who spends anywhere near that...retired or working. I have friends who are working lawyers, retired lawyers, self employed still working, teachers, bankers. A wide variety of what I would call average, above average and top 10% wage earners. i think most people would consider someone who sees annual vacation spending of $20,000 as “low”.....To be wealthy. Most of the people I know will spend that much once or twice a lifetime. it’s hard to argue that vacation spending of $40-50k annually isn’t luxury.

am I off base? the Numbers just seem very high to me and I was exposed to all ranges of Canadians as I worked at 7-8 different bank branches in the gta. I would suspect the vacation spending for those living outside major urban centres is even lower. and these are costs for a 2 person couple? Again, I congratulate you.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It is not hard to get to $40-50k with higher end vacations, none of which we do often but have treated ourselves a few times in the last 8 years. I don't think I suggested this was our typical spend.

1. We did a 3+ week customized trip with one other couple to South Africa, Botswana, Zimbabwe and Namibia, mostly staying in 5 star safari 'camps' and boutique hotels with a private guide in each country. Plus business class airfare to/from South Africa. That was about $40-45k I think.

2. We did a 3+ week trip to Cambodia and Vietnam including Mekong River cruise on a Scenic package. Plus business class airfare via Hong Kong to Cambodia and return from Vietnam. That was about $30-35k I think.

We've done a yacht cruise to Costa Rica and Panama and the Canal, river cruises in Europe, etc, etc. All flying is done business class, even to Mexico. Those were a lot closer to the $20k end and more typical of our annual travel spend. We are now in our early '70s and won't be doing as much adventuresome things in the future....maybe not at all if Covid-19 does not resolve itself.


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## Thal81 (Sep 5, 2017)

I find it crazy how it has become the norm for average people to go on expensive trips around the world. It's a fairly recent thing too in terms of human history, probably came around only post WW2 with the baby boomers.

I did a bit of travel in my life and while it was all enjoyable, the bang-to-buck ratio was never worth it for me. I have co-workers going down south once or twice per winter, then going to Europe in the summer, while also endlessly renovating their summer cottage. They're the same people who complain they'll never be able to retire 🙄

More on topic, I plan to retire early with yearly expenses less than the cost of one of AltaRed's trips 😄


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> If I haven’t already congratulated, then I do now.
> 
> the vacation spend is just fascinating to me. I only know one person who spends anywhere near that...retired or working. I have friends who are working lawyers, retired lawyers, self employed still working, teachers, bankers. A wide variety of what I would call average, above average and top 10% wage earners. i think most people would consider someone who sees annual vacation spending of $20,000 as “low”.....To be wealthy. Most of the people I know will spend that much once or twice a lifetime. it’s hard to argue that vacation spending of $40-50k annually isn’t luxury.
> 
> am I off base? the Numbers just seem very high to me and I was exposed to all ranges of Canadians as I worked at 7-8 different bank branches in the gta. I would suspect the vacation spending for those living outside major urban centres is even lower. and these are costs for a 2 person couple? Again, I congratulate you.


Umm, well if 'knowing' a person stretches to knowing posters in this forum then I would have to say you know more than one Money172375. I consider a $20k travel budget to be reasonable and a higher number not out of the realm of possibility for a particular year.

But I think you are confining your thinking to the number and would suggest to you that you consider it in terms of CHOICE of how people spend their money. One person may limit travel spending to say 10% of their annual income in which case they would have to earn $200k to spend $20k annually on travel. Someone else however who values travel much higher and only earns $70k per year might just as easily spend $20k on travel and limit their living costs accordingly. It depends on the individual's priorities.

Consider this, of the people you know who would consider $20k on travel high, how many trade in their vehicle every 2-3 years? That's an example of someone who simply prioritizes their 'ride' over travel.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Too much is being made of where people spend their discretionary dollars. They vary as much as people themselves and the stage of life they are in. 

Spouse and I are now both in our early '70s, knowing full well that if we didn't check off some of the items in our bucket list early enough, they were not going to get done. Neither of us wanted to be on our death bed wishing we had done X and Y. People not yet retired don't see the urgency nearly as much as those whose time is running out. The important thing for retirees is to get some of those things on the bucket list checked off before they no longer are practical or achievable. It really is no more complicated than that.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Thal81 said:


> I find it crazy how it has become the norm for average people to go on expensive trips around the world. It's a fairly recent thing too in terms of human history, probably came around only post WW2 with the baby boomers.
> 
> I did a bit of travel in my life and while it was all enjoyable, the bang-to-buck ratio was never worth it for me. I have co-workers going down south once or twice per winter, then going to Europe in the summer, while also endlessly renovating their summer cottage. They're the same people who complain they'll never be able to retire 🙄
> 
> More on topic, I plan to retire early with yearly expenses less than the cost of one of AltaRed's trips 😄


Every individual is different Thal81 and as you say, 'the bang to buck ratio was never worth it for you.' But no doubt there are other things where you do consider the bang to buck worth it and that other people would not consider it worth it.

A simple example would be how differently people see the cost of a vehicle in terms of what is worth it. When someone tells me they just bought a $60,000 pick up truck, I can't see that as 'worth it' and yet they sell plenty of them don't they.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> Too much is being made of where people spend their discretionary dollars. They vary as much as people themselves and the stage of life they are in.
> 
> Spouse and I are now both in our early '70s, knowing full well that if we didn't check off some of the items in our bucket list early enough, they were not going to get done. Neither of us wanted to be on our death bed wishing we had done X and Y. People not yet retired don't see the urgency nearly as much as those whose time is running out. The important thing for retirees is to get some of those things on the bucket list checked off before they no longer are practical or achievable. It really is no more complicated than that.


Ever since I first heard the term 'bucket list' I have wondered about it. I have no bucket list and never have had. Rather than waiting to retire to do the things that I wanted to do, I've just done them as they came up on my radar as something I wanted to do NOW. 

I understand the concept of a bucket list, I just don't subscribe to waiting to do things which is what having a bucket list implies. My advice to younger readers is to do what you want to do NOW, don't wait to tick it off a 'bucket list' later in life, you may not live that long.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

One reason that people defer activities for retirement by creating a bucket list is that they want to have something to do in the years they are not working. It is a way to fill the extra time. Studies have shown that anticipation of a pleasurable event could cause more happiness than the event itself. So it is plausible that people unconsciously tap into this source of happiness by putting off activities in their bucket list.

Another reason may be small business owners who are so tied to their business they may not be able to take time off for an extended period of time.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Good observation. When I was working, it was pretty much 50 hour weeks and quite a bit of business travel, sometimes weekends on my own time. The ability to take 3-4 weeks off to really enjoy a major thing on the bucket list was pretty slim, and even if possible, hardly relaxing enough, knowing what would be facing me when I was back to work. So the less time consuming things on the bucket list were done while working.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Thal81 said:


> More on topic, I plan to retire early with yearly expenses less than the cost of one of AltaRed's trips 😄


I suspect there are lots of people that live quite comfortably on quite a bit less than that.

I have admitted many times before that after a lifetime of saving for retirement it's often difficult to switch to a spend it all before you die mode, or at the very least spend everything that you make once retired and preserve the capital for your heirs. Everyone's situation is so different, and to make any comparison to what others spend in retirement is silly.

I've been retired for 14 years and I still cannot break free from the saver mentality. I spend what I need to be comfortable and don't feel the desire to go further than that. But that's just my situation and isn't relevant to anyone else.

I find I have a heck of a time spending money on luxuries even though I may be able to afford it. I'm always fascinated and maybe even envious of those that spend large amounts on travel or cars, etc. Their attitudes must be so very different than my own.

ltr


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## Canadafan (Oct 19, 2014)

On the annual travel $ expense. When I set up this thread,I knew full well that "travel"/"vacation" is extreamly individual.
Based prmirlily on afordabilty, second on wants, & third on opportunity.
I presently and through life have known a full spectrum of people; Some with 5+ kids, just scratching by, some on social assistance to those making $100K/month.
I presently know a couple who have a vaction home, away from their retirment home & they even take a one week "vaction" away from the in-place vacation home.
They in essence are getting away from the get-away home.
I also know, others who are saving up to take a day trip in a car to local parks etc.
One relative of mine is planning a $30K++ 6 week vaction/cruise to distant lands.
Back to my original point: The question was based on fixed expenses, being food, clothing, house upkeep ( not major renovations..See vactions above), entertainment, various transportation etc.
Assuming a retired couple, living in Canada with a paid off house.
That is what the mcleans article touched on and IMHO very well.
The bucket list now or later thing? Great concept, great discussion. Again, MANY & Id say the mean ( average) of Canadians started working, raised families and in that realm , many choices were not to be had.
That-said: The thought is once retired, the kids are gone, debts are gone and a a new world of opportunities does open up.
I have one relative who although married for decades, very well off, never went the children route & retirement has only give them more time & flexibility.
Call me focused,to the point of O.C.D, but the question was & still is: Does this fourm see $70k/year after taxes , for a retired couple in Canada, with a paid of house ..excluding travel,,,as a reaonable amount?

From what I see, so far separating the numbers from the phylosopy that number is a fair & reasonable amount. Bordering on high. The $80K number would be upwards of a luxury lifestyle.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Canadafan said:


> Call me focused,to the point of O.C.D, but the question was & still is: Does this fourm see $70k/year after taxes , for a retired couple in Canada, with a paid of house ..excluding travel,,,as a reasonable amount?


I'll answer the same as a month ago - that number is really high.

ltr


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## Canadafan (Oct 19, 2014)

like_to_retire said:


> I suspect there are lots of people that live quite comfortably on quite a bit less than that.
> 
> I have admitted many times before that after a lifetime of saving for retirement it's often difficult to switch to a spend it all before you die mode, or at the very least spend everything that you make once retired and preserve the capital for your heirs. Everyone's situation is so different, and to make any comparison to what others spend in retirement is silly.
> 
> ...


Like to retire... Years ago ( 1995),I was at a retirment seminar, put on by a W.M. Mercer pension consultant. 
His opening line, ( then) was: " The majority of those retired today, will pass away with more net worth & assets then when they retired"....
Why?? 
Exactly your thoughts. More so for those who retired in the 1970/80s but the trend continues.
His explanation: many of the "advisors" are over- stating , post retirment needs and instill as "save all you can" to retire mindset. 
Like I said previous, very few advisors have de-vesting training. They make $ on the larger balances after all.
L.R.T. you are an individual, but according to the WM Mercer Guy back in 1995, part of the majority.
I know people who are one paycheck away from eviction & I also know 3 separate sets of retired couples that can not even spend the income each year from RRSP investments.
So their pile gets bigger. the ability to spend grows, yet they dont.
Same mind-set, even though they can, they wont.

Myself BTW, Im so far the same. Could spend much more than I do, but dont.
Big part of it is that fear of running out. Finding the balance is tough and a great place to be BTW.
Interesting concept, as I think out loud. Most of our retirment "spend" is in-place and very little room for adjustment.
We need to eat, heat, cool & have lights, That basic in-place cost is probably 2/3 of any budget. Beyond that becomes the luxury vs simple stuff.
One car or two. or zero cars?


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## Canadafan (Oct 19, 2014)

like_to_retire said:


> I'll answer the same as a month ago - that number is really high.
> 
> ltr


Thanks for the direct answer.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

I think 70k plus travel, plus house renos plus vehicle replacements would be okay. Comfortable,but definitely not luxury.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I provided my answer some time ago as well and it aligns with what Gator is saying.

Base costs are running about $60k per year, and we typically spend $70-80k when we throw in some 'comfortable' extras. Our base may seem high but we do a fair bit of hosting, especially in summer with our pool and 3 bedrooms in the walkout basement. We have about 3400 sq ft to maintain. For our family, extended family and friends, they see it as the place to be for summer fun. From about mid-June to mid-September, we are probably hosting 60 days in that span. Our pool servicing costs about $4k annually by itself, plus food and drink. We get a lot of enjoyment out of that and why we chose where we live and what we live in, in the first place.

@LTR - I respect how you wish to spend your retirement and if you cannot bring yourself (or want) to spend a bit more 'frivolously', that is a personal choice. I take no exception with that choice and no one else should either.


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

A very interesting and informative topic. My only input would be that the mortgage should be long gone before retirement.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Topo said:


> One reason that people defer activities for retirement by creating a bucket list is that they want to have something to do in the years they are not working. It is a way to fill the extra time. Studies have shown that anticipation of a pleasurable event could cause more happiness than the event itself. So it is plausible that people unconsciously tap into this source of happiness by putting off activities in their bucket list.
> 
> Another reason may be small business owners who are so tied to their business they may not be able to take time off for an extended period of time.


Should I take it you are not retired Topo? It certainly sounds like you aren't to me.

I do not need any way to 'fill the extra time'. I have no 'extra time', only the time I have left and I have more than enough things to do to fill however much time I am allotted. You make it sound like if someone doesn't have a bucket list they are liable to sit around saying, 'woe is me, I have nothing to do.'

The primary reason why people defer something is because they prioritize something else instead. People take their two week annual vacation and spend it painting their house. I was more likely to be wilderness backpacking off-trail with map and compass, down in the Grand Canyon. Try putting that on a bucket list to do when you are over 65.

At 65 I could produce a list of many things I had done and no 'bucket list' of things I had NOT done. Most of what I have done since age 65 are things I can still physically do AGAIN still. Like hiking in the Alps.

I never buy the 'I don't have time because I have to work' excuse. I worked just like anyone else but I never failed to use my allotted vacation time to do the things I wanted to do. If I had to (a real example) visit say Dallas on business, I would tack on a couple of days and drive to San Antonio to visit the Alamo and the River Walk.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Canadafan said:


> Call me focused,to the point of O.C.D, but the question was & still is: Does this fourm see $70k/year after taxes , for a retired couple in Canada, with a paid of house ..excluding travel,,,as a *reaonable amount?*


I would call you focused on hearing what you want to hear. The answer remains the same, REASONABLE can only be defined by the individual, no matter how many times you ask the same question.

You can ask what is the average retirement income or what is the amount on which an individual sees themselves as living a 'reasonable' life on in retirement but you cannot ask anyone else to say what YOU will find reasonable and that is the question you keep asking.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

Longtimeago said:


> Should I take it you are not retired Topo? It certainly sounds like you aren't to me.


You are correct. I am not retired and in no rush to do so. I enjoy what I am doing for the value I add (to society and and my portfolio alike). I am, however, FI and take enough time off to do what I want.



> I do not need any way to 'fill the extra time'. I have no 'extra time', only the time I have left and I have more than enough things to do to fill however much time I am allotted. You make it sound like if someone doesn't have a bucket list they are liable to sit around saying, 'woe is me, I have nothing to do.'


Not what I meant. The bucket list contains some activities to look forward to, usually things that need some preparation and planning, such as hiking the Everest. 



> The primary reason why people defer something is because they prioritize something else instead. People take their two week annual vacation and spend it painting their house. I was more likely to be wilderness backpacking off-trail with map and compass, down in the Grand Canyon. Try putting that on a bucket list to do when you are over 65.


That does not go on a bucket list. It's a short fly and ride to the Grand Canyon. You take a compass? There is the sun, and the moon, and the stars.....



> At 65 I could produce a list of many things I had done and no 'bucket list' of things I had NOT done. Most of what I have done since age 65 are things I can still physically do AGAIN still. Like hiking in the Alps.


Hiking the Alps, that is not something you put on your bucket list these days! Maybe someone in the Titanic era would have, but nowadays, you can do a one week quick trip to Europe and do that. Even skiing down the slopes of St. Moritz (which is certainly less boring) does not qualify as a bucket list item.



> I never buy the 'I don't have time because I have to work' excuse. I worked just like anyone else but I never failed to use my allotted vacation time to do the things I wanted to do. If I had to (a real example) visit say Dallas on business, I would tack on a couple of days and drive to San Antonio to visit the Alamo and the River Walk.


Having a walk? The bucket list is not about doing mundane things like seeing the Alamos etc. It is about things that are grand and exciting like hiking the Everest or maybe the Kilimanjaro.

Think big LTA!


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Canadafan said:


> I presently and through life have known a full spectrum of people; Some with 5+ kids, just scratching by, some on social assistance to those making $100K/month.
> ...
> Does this fourm see $70k/year after taxes , for a retired couple in Canada, with a paid of house ..excluding travel,,,as a reaonable amount?
> 
> From what I see, so far separating the numbers from the phylosopy that number is a fair & reasonable amount. Bordering on high. The $80K number would be upwards of a luxury lifestyle.





Longtimeago said:


> I would call you focused on hearing what you want to hear. The answer remains the same, REASONABLE can only be defined by the individual, no matter how many times you ask the same question.
> 
> You can ask what is the average retirement income or what is the amount on which an individual sees themselves as living a 'reasonable' life on in retirement but you cannot ask anyone else to say what YOU will find reasonable and that is the question you keep asking.


It seems to me that LTA is right. Not much point in asking what a handful of members here see as "reasonable". From what I am able to infer about the finances of those who post here regularly, I would guess that most spend in the range of $5 - $10k per month on the basics. I am not sure that group is at all representative of a typical cross-section of Canadians (if there can fairly be said to be such a thing). 

But, Canadafan, as you yourself mention, you know people who range from living on welfare to some with incomes in the order of $100k per month. So, even if a small cohort of CMF types concur that $70,000 - $80,000 a year is a reasonable burn rate, so what? To those on welfare, that would seem like a king's ransom. To those taking home $100k/mo., it would seem like a pittance.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> It seems to me that LTA is right. Not much point in asking what a handful of members here see as "reasonable". From what I am able to infer about the finances of those who post here regularly, I would guess that most spend in the range of $5 - $10k per month on the basics. I am not sure that group is at all representative of a typical cross-section of Canadians (if there can fairly be said to be such a thing).


That is the point though. It is highly variable depending on one's resources and desired (or possible) lifestyle. The Macleans article link is a reasonable set point for 3 representative lifestyles. Nothing more really needs to be said.


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## Canadafan (Oct 19, 2014)

I agree the Mcleans article is a great set point of 3 lists of lower, mid & high end retirements.
Back to my point : If one wants to take the attitude, "it does not matter as everything is individual & up to the person", then why have a Canadian Money form at all?
Of coure there is a cross section of Canadians "in the middle" ,just check with statistics Canada. They have rooms full of bean counters determining the very answer to the question.
With all respects for the extream ends. Being those on welfare ( they wont be likely on a Canadina Money form) & those clearing in excess of $10K/month..obvioulsy not within the norm.
A quick check of 2019 stats shows "the average wage in Canada" to be mid $53K, with some Provinices higher & some lower.
Going on to say that some higher level jobs pay $110K/yr plus....They are talking numerical averages. Yes many make more and many make less.
Assuming one who retired is at the top end of any employment range ( most are after years of working) & assuming the spouse perhaps less/year.
Now: into retirment ?

many of the financial planers like to use the 80% rule of thumb? 
That ratio becomes confusing> 80% of what?
And how sensible is 80% post retirment?
Drill down & they are talking 80% of pre-retirment gross income. 
Taking off the table, employment costs: parking, transportation, lunch, coffees, work-wear,( office or factory) union/association dues, E.I. C.P.P ..just to name a quick few.
Then comes the big one: TAXES!
Proper planing and income splitting can reduce tax rates by a huge amount.
I think the 80% of pre-retirment gross income is plenty to retire on.
again, My previous point. Many die with more $$ then what they retired with. They just cant get out of the saving for a rainy day mode.

Back to the questions & answers
Gator13 so far has the best..( yes his opinion) & it was opinions I was asking for..LOL

"I think 70k plus travel, plus house renos plus vehicle replacements would be okay. Comfortable,but definitely not luxury."
Zipper: Yes it was in the question assumption the the living-in house is paid off.
I have met only one retired individual who does not see that as a care. Perhaps forced acceptance.
A safe bet , majority of those on this form have been living the mantra "pay off house before retiring"


*How about changing things up? 

A couple in Canada*, living in a paid off house. One car paid for..what is the minium requirment to live? No vacations, just base spend.
I see that as $45k/yr. Net. Does include car depreciation and house mantenance, but no major projects.
Comments?


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

For my personal situation, we would have to cut back on our spending to achieve a budget 45k/yron base spending. That being said, there are still variables in base spending. Are your property taxes 2.5k per year or 7.5k per year? Your grocery shopping habits are also have to be considered. Do you have a garden? Etc

What about healthcare? I have enjoyed a pretty decent employer provided benefits plan for decades. I have no idea how much to budget for in retirement. It is by far the biggest unknown for me.


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## Canadafan (Oct 19, 2014)

What about healthcare? I have enjoyed a pretty decent employer provided benefits plan for decades. I have no idea how much to budget for in retirement. It is by far the biggest unknown for me.

My healthcare, is in-progress of being set up & will be for both dental & extended health care.husband & wife = $500/month.
The dental is just over $200/month of that & I may self insure after trying for a year.

Regarding property taxes, great question. In the midle of your suggested range at about $4k/year.
Our groceries are very expensive due to medical diet restrictions. Probably close to $1K/month, but that counts everything bought at a grocery stroy. ie personal care items etc
My healthcare BTW would be on-top of the $45K, putting the number to $50K


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Zipper said:


> A very interesting and informative topic. My only input would be that the mortgage should be long gone before retirement.


I would say that's positively old school advice there Zipper, but oft' seen for sure. 

When I had a mortgage, I was thrilled to get a loan at 10% p.a. interest. Definitely not desirable baggage to lug into retirement. But now, there is mortgage money out there for 2%, or even less. There are some on this board who say that they would never in a million years content themselves with crappy "single-digit" investment returns, even in the worst of times. So, if one can always invest at a return of 10% or better, would it not make sense to slow down on paying off 2% money when it can be put to work at 10%? What am I missing?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Topo said:


> You are correct. I am not retired and in no rush to do so. I enjoy what I am doing for the value I add (to society and and my portfolio alike). I am, however, FI and take enough time off to do what I want.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you need to think reality rather more than I need to think 'big' Topo. I have climbed Mt. Kilimanjaro by the way, I did it when I was 21. Most people have bucket lists that contain things I would have no interest in at all, while many of the things I have done most people will probably never do or be able to do.

Here is a list of Bucket List ideas, you can find many such lists online.








1000+ Bucket List Ideas: The Best Things to Do Before You Die


Do you need the best bucket list ideas? From Travel to career to connecting with nature, these over a thousand items will motivate you to live your list.




bucketlistjourney.net





As for my 'having a walk' not being on a Bucket List, my walks include 'walking the Pacific Crest Trail from Mexico to Canada, 4,275 km. Walking the Appalachian Trail, 3524 km. Walking across Switzerland from Basel to Chiasso on the Via Gottardo a mere 320 km. is a 'walk' I have enjoyed in the Alps.

I have also sailed as in on a sailboat, across the Atlantic and in such diverse places as the Norwegian fjords, the French Polynesians, much of the Mediterranean and even something as mundane as simply crossing Lake Ontario.

I could go on with many other things I HAVE done Topo that would probably qualify for someone's Bucket List, like having been blessed by the Pope in person for example but I don't want to bore you too much with my mundane 'Titanic era' experiences.

So what do you have on your bucket list that is 'grand and exciting' Topo and that you are likely to ever do after you retire?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Canadafan said:


> *How about changing things up?
> 
> A couple in Canada*, living in a paid off house. One car paid for..what is the minium requirment to live? No vacations, just base spend.
> I see that as $45k/yr. Net. Does include car depreciation and house mantenance, but no major projects.
> Comments?


Well the MINIMUM requirement according to our government is defined when you look at when they will pay GIS since the intent of GIS is to Guarantee a minimum income n'est-ce pas?

According to that, someone can qualify for some GIS supplement to their income if:


_your income is below $18,600 if you are single, widowed, or divorced_
_your income plus the income of your spouse/common-law partner is below:_
_$24,576 if your spouse/common-law partner receives the full OAS pension_
_$44,592 if your spouse/common-law partner does not receive an OAS pension_
_$44,592 if your spouse/common-law partner receives the Allowance_


So there you have the answer to your new question. The minimum income required by a couple is $44,592. If they have that amount or more, they don't need help from GIS.

Whooeee, a definitive answer.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

LTA, those are some serious hikes. Awesome & congrats! How many days dd some of those trips take? 
Sorry for going off topic.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Gator13 said:


> LTA, those are some serious hikes. Awesome & congrats! How many days dd some of those trips take?
> Sorry for going off topic.


My guess is that depended on whether on not the Pope was along for the trip in question. If he was, the pace was more relaxed and the experience more spiritual.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

Longtimeago said:


> I think you need to think reality rather more than I need to think 'big' Topo. I have climbed Mt. Kilimanjaro by the way, I did it when I was 21. Most people have bucket lists that contain things I would have no interest in at all, while many of the things I have done most people will probably never do or be able to do.


LTA, Mt. Kilimanjaro is second-rate. You should do the Everest. That is where all the winners go. Then come back with some bragging rights. 



> As for my 'having a walk' not being on a Bucket List, my walks include 'walking the Pacific Crest Trail from Mexico to Canada, 4,275 km. Walking the Appalachian Trail, 3524 km. Walking across Switzerland from Basel to Chiasso on the Via Gottardo a mere 320 km. is a 'walk' I have enjoyed in the Alps.


Those are a-okay, but why would you not do the hike all the way to Punta Arenas and back. That would be a genuine adventure. 



> I have also sailed as in on a sailboat, across the Atlantic ...


Wasn't this already accomplished by an Italian guy in the 15th century? What is so special about this?



> So what do you have on your bucket list that is 'grand and exciting' Topo and that you are likely to ever do after you retire?


I don't have a bucket list yet. I am far away from that stage. However, I don't judge people who have one. There is nothing wrong with having a bucket list. Your way of life is good for you. Theirs is good for them.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Gator13 said:


> LTA, those are some serious hikes. Awesome & congrats! How many days dd some of those trips take?
> Sorry for going off topic.


The PCT was done over a 5 year span Gator13 in sections taking from 3 to 7 weeks at at time. The average time overall is around 5 months. The AT takes about as long. I did it over 2 summers. 

My favourite nowadays though are what I call 'credit card hiking'. Unlike the PCT or the AT and the like, which are wilderness trails with long distances between access to anything, places like Switzerland and the trails there are very different. While still in 'wilderness' you are never far from 'civilization'. Typically, when hiking in Switzerland, you can easily arrange it so that you end up in a village or town at the end of every day. So you have no need to carry food, tent, sleeping bag, stove, etc. All you need is a couple of changes of clothes, a rain jacket, a few other essentials and a credit card ! Your credit card becomes your food and shelter supply for each day. LOL Best of all, age does not really stop you being able to enjoy it as long as you remain healthy and reasonably fit for your age.

You can look here at the Via Gottardo I mentioned and see how easy it is do it in stages, some longer some shorter. 




__





ViaGottardo - Wanderland


What would the Gotthard be without its access routes? The ViaGottardo reaches the central Alpine pass from Chiasso in the south, from Schaffhausen in the northeast and from Basel in the northwest of Switzerland. There are many traces of these transport links to discover along the way.




www.schweizmobil.ch




An easy 3 week 'walk'. Some might even just call it a 'stroll'.

Spending even 7-10 days in the Grand Canyon off-trail though with just a map and a compass is a far harder 'walk' which Topo dismisses as just a short flight and a drive. Presumably then he would do what the average tourist does and spend the average 17 minutes actually looking at the Canyon.


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## robfordlives (Sep 18, 2014)

I think the MacLeans article is about right in their various tiers. For ourselves we are aiming for the 45K range INCLUDING taxes. I also have to say some of the travel numbers seem very high. We are both introverts so the thought of some of the guided stuff where you are with strangers for 2 weeks makes us cringe. You know you can rent a luxury penthouse in much of SE asia for around $1500CAD per month? Rent a car or hire someone to take you on day trips and you are not looking at much more than 6K for a similar experience including flights if you pick them up when there is a deal (HINT, there is always a deal never mind the Travel Hacking thing some of us do). My family is from Northern Europe. You hear how expensive it is. It isn't. One hour from Venice, again you can find $1500 per month AirBnB (actually that is on high side). Groceries are increditbly cheap there (dozen amazing eggs for 75 cent euro). Take the train to Venice, Florence, etc from this base or rent a car for $1000 a month. I hear people spending $30K on two week European vacations. I don't get it and frankly this slow travel method is alot more fun than rushing from city to city on a guided tour

Soemone mentioned kitchen reno for 30K. I know when I retire EVERYTHING will be done on the house. I think a good kitchen reno can realistically last 40 years. White kitchen with cabinets to ceiling is pretty timeless I think. Of course things like roof, etc have to be replaced and for us 5K a year is about right for maintenance related things.

Some examples where we save. Hobbies are tennis, biking and X country skiing. I stopped golfing partly due to the cost and lack of health benefits compared to tennis. We are perfectly OK with $10 Yellow Tail wine on sale (just an example) versus the $30 wines our friends like...not judging just an example. Would we like a hot tub? Absolutely but 12K for a nice one + electrical upgrades + an extra $30 per month for the life of hot tub for heating the water and chemicals. Yea no thanks, we will live without it.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Like to retire.....our budget has been 72K after taxes, on average, for each of the past eight/nine years of retirement. Much less this year. We own our home but did rent for four of those years. Travel? We have done two international trips per year, each one eight weeks long every year. Plus a few one week AI’s over Xmas with family. No budget, we simply take a tape on total spend from our bank statements.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

Longtimeago said:


> The PCT was done over a 5 year span Gator13 in sections taking from 3 to 7 weeks at at time. The average time overall is around 5 months. The AT takes about as long. I did it over 2 summers.
> 
> Spending even 7-10 days in the Grand Canyon off-trail though with just a map and a compass .......


Undoubtedly some fantastic memories worth far more than any material possessions.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

ian said:


> Like to retire.....our budget has been 72K after taxes, on average, for each of the past eight/nine years of retirement. Much less this year. We own our home but did rent for four of those years. Travel? We have done two international trips per year, each one eight weeks long every year. Plus a few one week AI’s over Xmas with family. No budget, we simply take a tape on total spend from our bank statements.


Very nice lifestyle ian. Too bad you don't have detailed expense records. They would be a excellent reference for others.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

The only variance to that number has been a 23k ish health care spend last year. It looks like that number will average out because of no travel spending since March and unfortunately none forecasted for the balance of the year.

i am surprised at how little we are spending during this period.


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## mmlucki99 (Aug 25, 2020)

ian said:


> Like to retire.....our budget has been 72K after taxes, on average, for each of the past eight/nine years of retirement. Much less this year. We own our home but did rent for four of those years. Travel? We have done two international trips per year, each one eight weeks long every year. Plus a few one week AI’s over Xmas with family. No budget, we simply take a tape on total spend from our bank statements.


Hi Ian, Is the 72K after taxes budget included the travel? You mentioned that you don't have the budget, how do you know how much to withdraw the RRSP, or just withdraw when you need it ? 
Thanks


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

mmlucki99 said:


> Hi Ian, Is the 72K after taxes budget included the travel? You mentioned that you don't have the budget, how do you know how much to withdraw the RRSP, or just withdraw when you need it ?
> Thanks


Why would you assume a 'withdrawal' rather than assume an income derived without having to withdraw from capital?


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## mmlucki99 (Aug 25, 2020)

sorry, I assumed in my case which the retirement plan included withdraw from RRSP fund, Let me re-phase the question: 
Hi Ian, Is the 72K after taxes budget included the travel? You mentioned that you don't have the budget, Do you need to withdraw money from RRSP fund, if yes , how do you know how much to withdraw the RRSP, or just you withdraw when you need it ?
Thanks


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

Okay, here is a snapshot of what we are budgeting for retirement. This works out to 10k per month. Most of this is based off of our current expenses/life style. 

7.5 - Property Tax
5.4 - Utilities
4.2 - Cable, internet, cell
13.2 - Grocery
12.0 - Hobbies, dining, alcohol, dining, entertainment, etc
7.2 - Healthcare
4.2 - Auto insurance
4.8 - Auto gas
6.0 - Auto replacement
15.0 - Home maintenance (repairs, upgrades/refresh, furniture, electronics, appliances, other surprises, etc)
15.0 - Travel
12.0 - Donation & gifts
13.5 - Other (personal care, clothing, house insurance, dry cleaning, books, music, misc fees, etc)


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Gator13 said:


> Okay, here is a snapshot of what we are budgeting for retirement. This works out to 10k per month. Most of this is based off of our current expenses/life style.
> 
> 7.5 - Property Tax
> 5.4 - Utilities
> ...


wow. Some of the categories seem really high. Cable, internet, utilities, auto insurance, home maintenance. Since covid, I’ve been asking my friends what they pay for things. I figure people have more time to research. Most don’t know any details off hand. The range is surprising. Especially when the people I’m asking are in the same demographic and geography. Just goes to show that personal budgeting and “wants“ are very personal and the “financial planning estimates” are almost useless.


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## bradner (Dec 30, 2019)

Great thread.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> wow. Some of the categories seem really high. Cable, internet, utilities, auto insurance, home maintenance. Since covid, I’ve been asking my friends what they pay for things. I figure people have more time to research. Most don’t know any details off hand. The range is surprising. Especially when the people I’m asking are in the same demographic and geography. Just goes to show that personal budgeting and “wants“ are very personal and the “financial planning estimates” are almost useless.


 I agree... in my view, you could cut most of those categories by roughly half, and still live a pretty decent lifestyle. 

Some things will depend on the size of your house, where you live, etc... the rest can be trimmed quite easily. I suppose some people just want a very comfortable lifestyle, so it's easy for them to justfiy.

I'm not sure I could get used to that level of spending... lol.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Gator13 said:


> Okay, here is a snapshot of what we are budgeting for retirement. This works out to 10k per month. Most of this is based off of our current expenses/life style.


We spent about $115k last year not including income taxes so it is comparable. Our travel and home categories were considerably higher than yours and some others considerably lower (property taxes, auto insurance, auto gas, healthcare). Both travel and home will be considerably lower this year. The variations are lifestyle dependent.


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## mmlucki99 (Aug 25, 2020)

Thank You,
Doing the retirement budget, here are few things we might spend more than when we are working (of course within our finance ability) : 

- Travel: travel more and might want to have the 'comfortable/luxury' way for old age. 
- Hobbies: tools, supplies etc ..
- Insurance: Health, travel etc. 
- Health care: put aside fund for health care. 
- Charity: more time for volunteering, might want to give more to the charity. 
- Eating out: More time to going out with friends. 
- Fixing the house: Will have more time to fix the house, we might want to spend money to improve it or to prepare for selling. 
- Maintenance /cleaning: We might want to hire someone to clean the house, yard, garden works etc ... 
- Car: More 'luxury'/comfortable car for long distance travel. 
- Exercise/Social: courses, gym, clubs 
- Gifts: family/extended family growing: wedding, babies , grand children ... more gift to give... 
- Pets: we might want to have a pet later.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

nathan79 said:


> I agree... in my view, you could cut most of those categories by roughly half, and still live a pretty decent lifestyle.
> 
> Some things will depend on the size of your house, where you live, etc... the rest can be trimmed quite easily. I suppose some people just want a very comfortable lifestyle, so it's easy for them to justfiy.
> 
> I'm not sure I could get used to that level of spending... lol.


Our fixed expenses are well under $20k a year. We live in a modest 1000 sq ft bungalow (paid off) that has everything we need. I suppose we could pay $50k - $100k a year and live in a 5000 sq ft house and spend large on things we don't need but that's not out style.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

For the posters in this thread who are looking at an upcoming retirement rather than those posters who are already retired, I will offering the following food for thought.

First, there is a saying, 'you can't see there from here'. It is quite appropriate when considering retirement. The way you live your life while working and spend your income while working is very different than it will be when you retire. You may THINK you will spend money on any given category but you do not KNOW how it will actually end up. You are simply guessing and one guess is as good as any other.

Take travel for example which is a common wish for retirement. How you view travel while working may change entirely after you retire. Instead of taking a vacation at the height of the season when all the working people do, you may find you like to travel in the off season when prices are lower. You may find you like to travel for longer periods which means you amortize the actual travel cost (air travel) over a longer period. The typical 2 week in the sun vacation package is usually made up of at least 50% on the airfare. Go for a month and that airfare is cut in half per week of vacation. Go in off season and it is cut again.

You may find you actually end up going out to eat or ordering in, less than you did while working. You may find you spend less on clothes, latest gadgets, etc. than you did before retiring. You may find you have time to research the lowest cost internet, phone and tv packages than you did when working. You may find you chose to downsize your home and move to an area with lower property taxes than you currently pay. That one is common for those who live in a city because they work there and then decide in retirement to move out of the city to a smaller town where their 'bang for the buck' in what a house costs is higher. You may sell a house in a city and buy the equivalent house in a small town for half the price.

The only thing you know before you retire, is how much income you will have when you retire. How you will spend that income is an unknown. That being said, it makes little sense to try and figure out what your budget in retirement will look like in any detail. The only question to ask is do you think it will be enough to fund the retirement you will want to have WHEN you are retired. You can only guess at that. Don't waste time trying to sweat the details. You can't see there from here.

You know what the average Canadian income is, if you will have near that or more, you have enough.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

"A budget is an estimation of revenue and expenses over a specified future period of time and is usually compiled and re-evaluated on a periodic basis."

We have made annual budgets and monitored our expenses for years. I would guess that is the case for a lot of people on this forum. I enjoy spending time managing my finances and having a spreadsheet for everything. Lol I don't see it as chore. 

That being said, I completely agree that circumstances will continuously change. I also agree there is no right or wrong number. All very personal decisions. Do you want to save money to help or give to children or spend it all in your lifetime? What are your hobbies? Where do you live? Where or even if you like to travel. Everyone has there own answer.

I posted my anticipated expenses. I hope to save in some areas. Other areas might go up a bit. More years like 2020 might come along. If we have extra we'll spend it on travel, entertaining and hobbies. All things we love. We have always lived well below our means so we can easily adapt. Health and time are the real unknowns.


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## Canadafan (Oct 19, 2014)

Gator13 said:


> Okay, here is a snapshot of what we are budgeting for retirement. This works out to 10k per month. Most of this is based off of our current expenses/life style.
> 
> 7.5 - Property Tax
> 5.4 - Utilities
> ...


Since I started the thread, I will throw in my estimates.Using your above catagories.as in your example units are K$/year.
Property tax $4.3, Utilities, $3.7, Cell, cable, internet, $3.8
Groceries$13.2: Hobbies, dining , entrtainment, day trips, $7.4
Healthcare $6.4, 
Auto insurence, 2.9, Auto gas 3.0. auto replacment 3.0, auto repairs & fees 3.0
Home maint, (repairs, upgrades/refresh, furniture, electronics, appliances, other surprises, etc), $4.2
Donations & gifts, family 5.0
other items house insurance, clothing, persoanl care, books and random things, 5K
Trael is not counted it varies from yer to year.
Using your item list total = $64.9K 
Recall my original estimate/thought was $72K, net as a very safe number.
Not included in this "budget" is a number for house renovations or major retrofits. 
If I add a vaction at $5-$10K the mid $70s becomes a reanable target once agin.
BTW, the place we are identical at is food. regardless of lifestyle or house size we all have to eat.
All the best & hope this helps.


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