# Nokia (NOK)



## Andre112 (Apr 27, 2011)

Nokia still holds the top of cellular phone market, but will it continue to do so with microsoft's help or it's gonna slowly lose it's position?

its stock price seems pretty cheap now. What are your thoughts?


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Based on global brand recognition (do a google.com/trends search for "android, blackberry, iphone, nokia", look at global sentiment first, regional second). I think these guys have a better shot than RIM in the long term but I still wouldn't go all in. If the market has a correction this summer I'll be looking to pick up some NOK.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Why do people love dinosaurs so much on this forum. Investing in non-smart cell phones is like investing in typewriters


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Investing in non-smart cell phones may be like investing in typewriters, but in the case of cellphones we still live in an age of typewriters (since smartphones account for less than 1% of global cellphone sales). 

However I agree that if you're looking for growth, smartphones are where you want to be, and I would be very surprised if Nokia ends up dominating that market.


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> Why do people love dinosaurs so much on this forum. Investing in non-smart cell phones is like investing in typewriters


Nokia recently decided to go with Windows 7 Mobile as their primary O/S of choice on their phones. 

http://androinica.com/2011/02/nokia...from-burning-platform-into-oil-soaked-waters/

I don't know anyone with a Windows based phone (I had one for about a month a few years back and returned it because I hated it). I think dumping their own O/S was probably a good choice, but android is where they need to go, not to Windows 7 mobile. 

Maybe they're setting themselves up to be purchased by M$, maybe it's the perfect contrarian play, but I'm not willing to take that bet.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

brad said:


> Investing in non-smart cell phones may be like investing in typewriters, but in the case of cellphones we still live in an age of typewriters (since smartphones account for less than 1% of global cellphone sales).


And how much of the global market still uses typewriters? People thought they'd never see PCs across the globe, guess what a smart phone is cheaper than a PC and will become more affordable.

Whatever is next it will probably dominate as much as Windows did, but slim chance it will be Windows 7 Mobile or Nokia imo


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Broadcom's BCM2157 (ARM11) SoC announced in December will make entry level smartphones possible for Android in the $75-100 range.

Nokia already had an ARM11 based smartphone in 2009 - the Nokia 5230 - which currently retails for $110.

Compare that to BlackBerry's cheapest smartphone from the same period, the Curve 8520 - that retails for $260, and like all BB products pretty much useless for browsing and email without subscribing to the BlackBerry data plan.

The bet is that Nokia doesn't forget the opportunity here and ontop of competing in the high-end smartphone market continues creating low-cost, high quality smart products. The only difference is these products would now ship with WP7 instead of Symbian or MeeGo.

They will still have competition. There are dozens of other handset manufacturers mostly from Asia that will compete in this space with Android 2.x.

The ITU aims to bring mobile broadband to the entire world, so hopefully everyone will eventually end up with smartphones.

Mobile miracle’ continues to transform lives in the world’s poorest nations, but those living in LDCs are still mostly offline



> ITU figures confirm that while the number of fixed lines has barely risen in LDCs over the past decade, reflecting global trends, mobile access has mushroomed, with cumulative annual growth rates over the past five years of 42.6% in LDCs compared to just 7.1% in developed countries.
> 
> In 2009, only a tiny handful of LDCs – Myanmar, Kiribati, Eritrea and Ethiopia – still had mobile penetration below the LDC III target of 5% – and that number is expected to shrink further by mid-2010.
> 
> ...


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

With the acquisition of Skype, I can see Micro$oft attempting to intergrate it with their platforms across the board, including the Windows Phone 7.
If Nokia and Micro$oft are now moving towards an exclusive agreement, this whole thing will become one package - Nokia hardware, Windows 7 Phone operating system, and Skype for all the voice/video communication.

That said, both these companies are well behind the curve in this game and it is doubtful whether any of this can have a meaningful impact on either company long-term.

At this time, I believe, if Micro$oft attempts to acquire either Nokia or RIM, it will be a bad move and will essentially cook Steve's goose as a CEO.
Acquisitions or mergers, where both companies are significantly behind the curve, doesn't have bright prospects.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Even Skype is just a name, it was a poor buy for Ebay and it's even worse for Micro$soft imo. I can show you a better quality version of Skype for cheaper based on SIP which has potential for far more than just VoIP. Skype is just a proprietary low quality version that gained traction

SIP can actually pass video, voice, gps coords, contacts etc and is the future along with cloud computing. Essentially, Micro$oft is waaaay behind and buying Skype proves it. It's more of a marketing play than anything because Skype is a known name. If Nokia can make a cheap smartphone, I don't see why HTC/Samsung etc can't make a better equally cheap smartphone


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

Nokia isn't where I'd put my money.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110531/bs_nm/us_nokia


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

unfortunately I did that already a few months ago, so too late for me.


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## financialuproar (Jan 26, 2010)

I like Nokia at these levels. I already bought at around $9.50, and will be averaging down in the next couple of days.

Nokia sucks at smartphones. That's the big issue here. Nokia sold 453 million handsets in 2010, almost 10x what Apple sold (47.5m). Out of those 453m units, 100m were smartphones, a 47% growth from 2009. The problem was the whole market grew by 67% from 2009. (As an aside, RIM's growth rate was even worse, at 41%) Apple sold more than double the number of iPhones in 2010 as they did in 2009. Analysts expect Nokia's growth to be cut in half of where it was in 2010, because they've abandoned their operating system for Windows. The new phones running Windows won't probably be out until early 2012.

Nokia ended 2010 with a 32.6% market share, increasing sales 4.9% from 2009. This is the smallest increase of any of the major manufacturers, save LG. The whole sector grew 18.5%. Nokia is definitely lagging behind.

Nokia still dominates the basic handset market. The market is concerned that increased competition will drive margins down. The stock sold off last week after the company missed Q1 numbers. Operating margins during Q1 of 2010 were 5.1%. They dropped to 4.2% in Q1 of this year. Revenue was up 9.2%, yet operating profit was basically the same. 

Why am I buying again? These are not good things! 

First of all, their networking division just keeps humming along, with the exception of a hiccup in Q4. A third of their profits came from their networking partnership in 2010, and they're in the process of acquiring Motorola's networking business. Potential synergies exist there.

The last time Nokia sold down to the teens was back in 2004. They were getting killed by a hot new product and margins were suffering. (Sound familiar?) It was the Motorola Razr flip phone, Nokia didn't have a flip phone. Nokia moved past, introducing other models that did well. The point? A large company like Nokia has done it before, falling behind competitors. They'll weather the storm, and come out the other side. 

Oh, and 7 billion net cash, on a market cap of 25 billion. Over a quarter of the company is cash.

Crap, I still gotta write a blog post tonight.


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## Zara Mari (May 19, 2011)

> Investing in non-smart cell phones may be like investing in typewriters, but in the case of cellphones we still live in an age of typewriters (since smartphones account for less than 1% of global cellphone sales).


I agree with brad on his statement. If you get the worldwide stat of people using smart phones versus the normal cell phone models, you'll see how these phones make companies profit. Smartphones take time to be sold so I think it is best to invest on what most consumers are buying. It's like a Chinese business, better to earn a little, as long as there is an immediate return on investment instead of waiting an x number of period before you realize your earnings.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I have a friend who was an early adopter of an HTC running Windows Mobile. I suggested to him to try downloading Android to try it. He did this in March and now he would not go back to Windows Mobile.

So I am a little concerned with the effort they are spending to switch to Winodws Mobile. There does not seem to be much profit margin in basic cell phones.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Check out Windows Mobile vs Windows Phone 7

And this is a demo of WP7.5 Mango, the version that will hit Nokia phones later this year: http://youtu.be/OP30F3ZxTmw


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Saying most people don't use smartphones is pretty short sighted I think. Nokia will easily be left in the dust without a popular OS. I think smartphones will do better than PCs worldwide, before too long. The infrastructor is less than wired high speed and the applications are far more


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> Saying most people don't use smartphones is pretty short sighted I think. Nokia will easily be left in the dust without a popular OS. I think smartphones will do better than PCs worldwide, before too long. The infrastructor is less than wired high speed and the applications are far more


What do you think about tablets?


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I'm hearing some rumours that Microsoft & Nokia are in the process of creating a Windows app store and flooding it with apps.
Both consumer focused as well as business focused.
Probably more focused on businesses, since Apple has the consumer markets by the b*lls but is not as strong in the enterprise market.

They are hiring one or the other outsourching companies to build all this s*it offshore and then flood the app store.
They are hoping it will really pick up.

Who knows...I am not that much into this smart phone apps thing to predict how this will turn out, but just thought some of you might find this interesting.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

S&P downgraded their debt today..


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

kcowan said:


> What do you think about tablets?





kcowan said:


> What do you think about tablets?


I think there's lots of applications for them that haven't been exploited. Portable computing and touch has been around but the new solid state, flash, mobile processors, touch screens etc make it far more useful. Military is applying it to everything from replacing paper documents to giving the generals a tactical picture wherever they are. There's no reason why they won't replace all computer interfaces (like the center consol in your car). Pair a BT keyboard and maybe plug in a screen and we could see a decline in pc's. I like to invest in the tablet components rather than 1 brand

As far as a Windows app store, I can't see them getting the development support that Apple has. This is why PC beat Mac and why XBox beats PS3 (software support). PS3 is a far superior device, but because most games are developed for XBox they actually play worse on a superior device. A device is only as good as the software and the device with the most developers always has the best software. A friend bought a Samsung phone to "boycott iTunes" but he ended up with an iPhone because of lack of apps


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> A friend bought a Samsung phone to "boycott iTunes" but he ended up with an iPhone because of lack of apps


Was it running Android?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

kcowan said:


> Was it running Android?


No, it was Samsung OS or something. Android will probably be my next mobile OS and I'm not sure where MS will get the same suppot. They spent a fortune to get XBox exclusive developers and didnt make a fortune in return their pockets can't be bottomless


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

This is disconcerting http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/06/10/1936237/Windows-Phones-Getting-Buried-At-Carriers-Stores


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

The N9 is getting some really good press:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/21/nokia-n9-first-hands-on/

Word on the street is that it won't sell because there aren't many apps for it, but the reality is that most people with iPhones use only 9 or 10 apps on a regular basis despite the 350,000 apps available.

We'll see how it goes, but if Nokia can produce more smart phones like this they might become a contender in that market after all.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

You probably only use 9 or 10 programs on your computer as well, brad, but that was the main reason nobody wanted to buy Mac computers. Lack of development support is a vicious circle with lack of users

Every now and then you want a certain app for a certain event or requirement and all the iPhone guys have it but certainly not a new OS. I actually want Android for its openness to new devices (takes a bit longer for Apple to approve) but the lack of app even one app is a real drawback. The case with most people who buy into these smaller OS, they end up cursing themselves later when they see an app on another OS they want.

My favorite apps are iPhone only and otherwise I may accept Android. A lot of developers prefer Apple's system, not to mention more users to develop for. The drawback is waiting for Apple's approval, but it does maintain a certain standard for users. Besides apps, the other thing is aftermarket accessories. Surely the highly proliferated devices have better/cheaper/variety etc


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> The drawback is waiting for Apple's approval, but it does maintain a certain standard for users.


This is actually a big deal, and the reason why Apple's "closed system" approach is so successful even if it does reduce their share of the market. Apple's insistence on controlling both hardware and software means that everything works, compared with Windows where incompatibilities abound. Conventional wisdom among analysts is that Apple has been hurt by its unwillingness to open up and license out hardware (they did that for a while in the late 80s/early 90s, but Steve Jobs ended that when he came back), but in fact that approach has been one of their greatest assets. 

I agree on the issue of limited app market, though, and that is a definite drawback. We'll see how things fare with the N9.

I actually have 65 apps on my Mac, although I only use about 13 of them regularly; the others do come in handy when I need them.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ I imagine those same apps work just fine on Android, WP7, etc.

It's why I don't understand why people were making the 60,000 Apple apps to 15,000 Android apps out to be a big deal. As with most things, it's hard to imagine that long tail of 45,000 apps adding much value. It's probably just competing apps that duplicate the functionality of more popular options.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Aren't there already more Android devices out there than iOS? In 2 years there will probably be 4x as many devices. Things are not looking good in the long run for iOS--apps will be developed for Android foremost.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

andrewf said:


> In 2 years there will probably be 4x as many devices. Things are not looking good in the long run for iOS--apps will be developed for Android foremost.


Yes, I doubt Apple will continue to lead in this market, but as I've mentioned before you can be a niche player and still make an incredibly good living. Apple has demonstrated this with its niche market in PCs -- a small chunk of a huge market still represents a lot of money.

The other thing to note is that Apple is working harder to integrate all of its devices: PCs, iPad, iPhone, to improve synchronization and harmonize the interface. So you work on a document on your computer, head off to the airport, open your iPad and start working where you left off...Google might be able to do something like this but it'll be harder because their system is more open. And so far the Chromebooks have been getting panned because they're so limited -- they're ahead of their time because we're still not in an age of ubiquitous internet.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm not against Android at all and I will happily switch when they catch up

45,000 vs 15,000 apps certainly makes a difference and as I've said the most impressive apps I use have yet to be developed for Android. The developers have commented that they prefer iOS (closed system is better for high end apps) I'm talking about engineering apps, technical apps, and high precision apps that rely on careful programming and testing across the devices

I'm pretty sure this will change as Android takes the lead in devices, they will be convinced to switch over. Nokia can certainly not just snap their fingers and catch up, I really see no hope in hell. They couldn't possibly hire enough developers to even catch up


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> II'm talking about engineering apps, technical apps, and high precision apps that rely on careful programming and testing across the devices


What does this even mean? Apps don't really do anything for the most part. Most are content delivery. I don't think anyone is running CAD on their handheld.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Apps don't really do anything for the most part. Most are content delivery.


????

There are many sophisticated apps out there, including databases, audio field recording and editing (check out FiRE), photo editing, sophisticated data tools for property inspectors and appraisers (check out DaVinci), wordprocessors, spreadsheets, patient record and medical reference apps for doctors and nurses, etc. And there are lots of people developing apps for technical uses; my company has developed apps for collection of environmental data, etc.

As for CAD: http://www.autocadws.com/mobile -- yes it's lightweight, but you can edit files with it.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

andrewf said:


> What does this even mean? Apps don't really do anything for the most part. Most are content delivery. I don't think anyone is running CAD on their handheld.


Apps are programs and these smartphones have more potential than a desktop computer because of the mobility and sensors. Sure you won't want to do 3D AutoCAD on a mobile device but they can do many other things better than a desktop.

I'm talking about mobile data logging, analyzing and sharing. At first I found I could stamp pictures or video with Lat/Long/Az/Elevation/Horizon/Time and the calculate any types of triangulation etc. I use these basic stats all time in the military and having a handheld screen to view/calculate/record things instantly is amazing, not to mention the ability to share the data instantly over WiFi or 3G. The apps I use were made for engineers. Not accurate enough? You can connect any sensor you want via BT, WiFi or a physical wire.

Many people use a smartphone now to track their marathons or bike/ski/sport runs etc along with heart rate data etc etc. You can overlay this data into video or graphs etc on the phone. People track many stats effortlessly with smartphones and process/view/share it however their heart desires. Nurses see this as huge potential as well. Pretty much anyone who monitors data or analyses anything should see the potential here, even things you never could monitor before. You can pay thousands for a dedicated device that won't even do near as well or as much without a laptop. The applications of tracking data is endless, and you can process and analyse it on the same device (not true for dedicated devices) We already have faster mobile processors coming and large enough storage space (32 GB plus expansion slots) and you can pick Nokia or whatever but they won't have the apps

As a programmer myself I have actually tested and helped make one of the coolest apps I've seen to date. It pushes the limit because it is used for logging race data which requires high refresh rate to be useful. I can track my laptimes, vehicle RPMs, accelerometer data, OBD data, gear changes, wheel pressure, and video all on an iPhone and then process and view it immediately. The quality of the built in sensor and the refresh rates are lacking, but you can add anything with BT, WiFi, or wire. Now I can tell you the weak link is the development support for these apps and the accessory support (or else you're building your own BT sensor or app and jailbreaking which is not impossible, just impractical) iPhone has the best of both right now but I can see Android passing. If you think an app like this is just content display you're very wrong. It takes a lot of time and dedication from the developers that I don't see how Nokia will have

Saying a smartphone app is just content display is VERY shortsighted. Apps have far more potential than even desktop programs do, and Nokia will be left in the dust without the developers. You may say you'll never use these apps but I think you're wrong. Sensor data logging can be used for just about anything


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Won't Android be held back by all the different hardware that must be tested to run properly. And who will do the testing? The many hardware manufacturers! How will you decide which combination of HW/SW is best. It seems to be a complex question for serious users.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I didn't say all, I said most. Imagine as a % of user-hours what proportion these specialized apps occupy vs. facebook, twitter, youtube, hulu, etc. 

And many of these supposedly highly sophisticated apps sound like spreadsheets or databases with a pretty front-end. The original point was that compatibility would be an issue with these applications. Not buying it. I could see there being an issue with apps that are highly reliant on sensors, which can vary from device to device.

Don't get me wrong--apps are great. These devices were never intended to be used for heavy content creation (if they are, it's a huge step back from desktops/notebooks in terms of usability).


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

kcowan said:


> Won't Android be held back by all the different hardware that must be tested to run properly. And who will do the testing? The many hardware manufacturers! How will you decide which combination of HW/SW is best. It seems to be a complex question for serious users.


This is exactly the issue. The racing app I'm using has a list of all the accessories and how they work with his app. I've seen the improvements he's made (IE it takes a lot of work and fine tuning) and I've met him and now provide test data for new accessories. He much prefers iOS because there is limited hardware. Android is far more work in that regard, and Android users also expect software to be free. There is lots of support for Android though, it will just take some time to catch up

Like I said before PS3 is superior hardware, but video games are developed for Xbox and ported to PS3 afterwards, if at all. You end up with more games on Xbox and games that work poorly on PS3, because Xbox came out first and developers prefer it. Developers won't just jump to Nokia/Microsoft. Most people are tired of Microsoft monopolizing the software market with all their marketing ploys and intended compatibility issues


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

"Android users also expect software to be free"

I think this might be the real reason developers prefer iOS apps. In the end though, the market share of Android will mean that people who don't develop for that platform will be marginalized.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

RIM is hurting for developers, so I expect the same for Nokia. It's something the consumers may overlook, but Nokia certainly won't make much impact without developer support

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/SciTech/20110626/RIM-app-developers-110626/


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Nokia announced 15% price cuts on their C7, E6, and N8 handsets on July 5. They figure since they can't really compete in the high end of the market at the moment, the lower prices will attract mid-end users.

I was personally thinking of upgrading to a Nokia E6. I love that it's pentaband. I love the keyboard layout, the 640x480 VGA screen, and most of all the supposedly superb energy efficiency. Except it has one major design flaw. The notification light is too thin and buried beneath the trackpad. Owners are complaining it's difficult to see if the light is even turned on unless you're in complete darkness. 

I know Symbian is being phased out, but it still has 5 years left of guaranteed production by Accenture. Symbian^3 Anna has a much cleaner, faster and friendlier UI than its predecessors. Symbian^3 Belle makes even more improvements, most distinguishably from leaked photographs is the drop-down notification bar available on Android/iOS. Still, for now the apps selection is lacking.

I am pretty disturbed that the iPad 2 was jailbroken through a 0day in the PDF reader. There is no anti-virus available on iOS. The hottest threat right now is targeting mobile devices to capture the OTP (one time password) and mTANs (mobile transaction authentication numbers) provided in two-factor authentication systems commonly used by corporations, some online banks and even Gmail.

Knowing Apple they're just going to ban everything related to Adobe in iOS...


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

ddkay said:


> I am pretty disturbed that the iPad 2 was jailbroken through a 0day in the PDF reader. There is no anti-virus available on iOS. The hottest threat right now is targeting mobile devices to capture the OTP (one time password) and mTANs (mobile transaction authentication numbers) provided in two-factor authentication systems commonly used by corporations, some online banks and even Gmail.
> 
> Knowing Apple they're just going to ban everything related to Adobe in iOS...


Jailbreaking is something that nerds to do allow others to lift Apple's control/security (you do it yourself, voluntarily hacking your own device so that you can do things Apple has decided not to allow for energy consumption/security etc)

NA needs what Germany uses for online banking - a physical device you hold up to the screen as a double protection besides just a password. I'm not even sure how it works, I don't understand half of my banking but it is certainly far more advanced.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Hold up to the screen? Like a NFC transmitter/receiver or something?

One time passwords (OTPs) expire after a set time (usually 60 seconds) and are pre-set by algorithm running on two ends (that's how the authentication happens). So if a bank asks for 2-factor auth on their website, first you login with your regular password, secondly you bring up a generator app on your mobile device that displays a string (or alternatively they can send a plain-text SMS your phone number), type that string into the banks website, and its checked against the banks one time password database. Wikipedia says this is what the Euro banks use: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transaction_authentication_number#Mobile_TAN_.28mTAN.29

RSA SecureID was hacked a few months ago. They had to replace 40 million SecureID hardware tokens and 240 million software tokens. Apparently they were negligent, did not encrypt the database on their end that was used to check customers passwords, so it was compromised.

The problem with JailbreakMe 3.0 is that it takes root through an exploit in the iOS PDF Reader. Maybe some people who jailbreak their device are doing it voluntarily, but the biggest threat is to people who are lured into downloading malicious files that take control of their devices. I was using OTP capture as an example attack vector. With a bit of social engineering and searching the Internet criminals can build a profile on you. Mikko Hypponen from F-Secure wrote about it in detail here: http://www.computerworld.com/s/arti...oit_iPhone_iPad_zero_day_available_on_the_Web


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Yea I don't have online banking here yet but I heard I get a crazy device to hold up to the screen for authentication, so it must be a transmitter/receiver of some sort

I thought Apple bans the use of all things Adobe for that reason? So 1) you have to willingly Jailbreak your phone (which you don't do by accident) and 2) you have to open a malicious PDF sent to you by email. It's like harold banning FB because his wife opened a malicious "app" inside of it. (Don't open viruses) They're always pretty obvious to me anyways.... A Nigerian Prince has $1 million for you? Just put your password right here and open this random PDF you weren't expecting

On the topic of Nokia.. they're leaving the Japanese mobile market..


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

Bloomberg Anywhere has the same sort of system (except they also do fingerprint authentication).

http://blog.robwebb2k.com/2007/08/03/corporate-branding-the-bloomberg-b-unit/

- You go to the Bloomberg Website
- The website then flashes a code for the B-unit to read
- Slide your finger over the fingerprint reader 
- Hold the B-unit up to the screen to read the flashing window
- The B-unit will generate a code which is used to get you into the site.

Pretty slick setup they have.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Apple earnings Tuesday, Nokia earnings Thursday.

Will be interesting to watch. I hope Nokia doesn't cut its dividend, that would be a very alarming sign.


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## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

ddkay said:


> Apple earnings Tuesday, Nokia earnings Thursday.
> 
> Will be interesting to watch. I hope Nokia doesn't cut its dividend, that would be a very alarming sign.


It's looking more than than likely that the dividend will be cut.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Apple will have the next iPhone out before Nokia/M$ft can spell Smrtphone.


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## MoreMiles (Apr 20, 2011)

I want to believe in Nokia. It's so cheap at $5.5 now.

But why go with a loser when you can stay with a winner? Even Microsoft's stock has not been too hot for the last 10 years. So 2 losers together do not add up to 1 winner. I don't see any future in Nokia.

Then again, I am hoping for a take-over and instant 30% pop.  Do you think it would happen? It's like buying a Call option lottery... except it does not expire. You hold the stocks until a take-over.


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## MoreMiles (Apr 20, 2011)

Hmm... 3% cheaper at $5.3 today. Okay, I will not try to catch a falling knife, this thing may go to $3.

I remember Citibibank went from like $40 to $2. It stayed around $4 until the reverse split.

Earning is 3 days... they may cut dividends, causing a plunge in value to $4.xx... then they will have to do a reverse split like Citibank.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

They're still in a transitional phase so stock price will probably head lower. Got to hand it to Goldman Tax for the $5 call from $8.50. Maybe N9 sales can give them a little boost, at least it looks more popular than the new BlackBerry. Layoffs and wage reductions are continuing until the end of this year, also no new products in the pipeline until the end of this year.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

I was wrong! They posted a loss but gave an optimistic outlook so it's up 2% in pre-market.


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## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

ddkay said:


> I was wrong! They posted a loss but gave an optimistic outlook so it's up 2% in pre-market.


I'd rather put my money in Apple. People still have time to jump in before it rockets past $400

Nokia and Research are dead on arrival to quote Steve Jobs


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Abha said:


> I'd rather put my money in Apple. People still have time to jump in before it rockets past $400
> 
> Nokia and Research are dead on arrival to quote Steve Jobs


I think he only said that in ref to the Playbook? Which in hindsight was correct. Motorola was king, then Nokia was king of the '90's, RIM was king of the 00's and now Apple. It's just the way it goes and I think Apple has a good stint coming up as King


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Long live the King!


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## Abha (Jun 26, 2011)

mode3sour said:


> I think he only said that in ref to the Playbook? Which in hindsight was correct. Motorola was king, then Nokia was king of the '90's, RIM was king of the 00's and now Apple. It's just the way it goes and I think Apple has a good stint coming up as King


Yeah he did only say that about RIM. I'm just speaking on his behalf and throwing Nokia and Microsoft in there as well.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

According to a roadmap leak by Orange France, the first WP7.5 phone might be released this November (instead of 2012) and should be named "Sun" 

Windows Phone Mango
3.7" ClearBlack AMOLED screen
1.4GHz CPU
16GB of onboard storage
8MP camera with Carl Zeiss lens
microSIM
1540 mAh battery

http://www.monwindowsphone.com/un-nouveau-nokia-le-nokia-sun-t6422.html
http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_wp7powered_sea_ray_sabre_and_ace_specs_leak-news-3217.php

Nokia World is also at the end of this month October 26-27 in London


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Seems that Sun leak never materialized, but we have since seen the launch of the Lumia series for WP. WP8 should be out in the next few quarters, unfortunately it will not be backwards compatible with existing/older models of Windows Phones. Planned obsolescence on $1000 devices is a problem for brand loyalty. Elop also said Windows Phone is the backup, so if this platform fails to gain traction they're pretty much finished.

I just ordered a mid-range Nokia 700 with the last supported version of Symbian (Belle), should be arriving in 2 weeks. Would write up a review on it but it's already obsolete lol. Thankfully this one has discrete graphics and is 3G pentaband unlocked unlike my Blackberry so I can use it anywhere.


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## rookie (Mar 19, 2010)

*making a case for NOK / MSFT*

if you are following the launch of lumia900 which NOK touted as bigger/grander than iphone, and tracking the stk price, its easy to see that the pre-order numbers are not up to the mark. the stk is down 5% after the opening up of pre-order.

this is what i was anticipating and actually hoping for. 

why anticipating? because there was nothing unique that lumia offered that iphone and android doesnt already have, other than a fresh new OS, which is another debate i do not want to go into right now. so how ever the launch went, the device is not good enough to steal customers on feature front. also, the OS is new and people generally tend to go with proven stuff. so i expected the launch to fizzle, but also expect a slow recovery and a steady gain in market share.

why hoping? this should be a good opportunity for opening up long positions in these companies. there is room for at least 3 players and even if the launch did not go off with a bang, it should still lead to a steady recovery for NOK. the device is at least 100$ cheaper and hence might draw some money conscious people. they would steal marketshare from RIMM and new smartphone entrants. even for MSFT, this is a do or die situation and i expect them to back this project up with all their might.

concerns? 
1. price point. lumias are cheaper than iphone but comparable to androids. how can nokia based in sweden be cost competitive with androids operating in asia? the only answer is lower margins. this affects only NOK, not MSFT.
2. OS acceptance. this i feel is just a roll of dice. however, i did watch MS keynote video on Windows8 and its clear that they are going after the developer community in full force. they have made it as easy to develop apps as possible. the portability of the apps from desktop to mobile versions is also very simple. so they seem to have the right idea and heading in the right direction...

disclosure: i am considering going long on these two companies. looking at option strategies.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Posted some thoughts about this earlier in the Nokia thread http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/7308-Nokia-(NOK)/page2


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## buhhy (Nov 23, 2011)

I recently opened a position in NOK in anticipation of their WP offerings, but I entered a little early 


I doubt the Lumia 900's margins are worse than that of top-of-the-line Android phones like the Galaxy line. The hardware isn't cutting edge.

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/cr...mediocre-hardware-reasons-for-great-price/527

TBH, I think Microsoft has a good chance of at least knocking out Android. Android as an OS really does suck, badly.


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## dragenn (Jan 22, 2013)

*Nokia ( NOK )*

Wanted to know what people are thinking about this stock. Especially now that the the tax owed to the indian government is just ~360 million dollars instead of $2-$3 billion. Great product and may be able to take back some market share moving forward. Right now im trying to pile on shares while it's still in the $3.20 range.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

dragenn said:


> 1. tax owed to the indian government is just ~360 million dollars instead of $2-$3 billion.
> 2. Right now im trying to pile on shares while it's still in the $3.20 range.


*1.* Just $360M you say? That would wipe out more than 1/2 the profits they made last Q, which came just under $600M. It's a hefty penalty [actually it's $383M], especially on top of the total 2012 losses of $3B.

Anyway, nothing has been settled yet; the payment India was demanding, has been put on hold at the moment until the next court date, which is scheduled next week. Note also that Q1/2013, is on April 18th, and that depending on the results & other news coming out of India, the stock could decline/rise considerably this month.

*2. *The price is cheap, but if you recall, it dropped below $2 less than a year ago, so be careful.


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## dragenn (Jan 22, 2013)

Thanks! Good to know!! I haven't pulled the trigger yet


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

I hope you didn't do so before the earnings.

-12% as I write this. Now wondering if there will be a repeat of last July.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> I hope you didn't do so before the earnings.
> 
> -12% as I write this. Now wondering if there will be a repeat of last July.


2.6 is the bottom?
what do u think?
are u backing up the truck here?


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Nope, not exactly backing up the truck yet considering what happened in mid 2012.

Will there be another déjà vu? Without a crystal ball, I rely in you already know what strategy.


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## dragenn (Jan 22, 2013)

A lot of my stocks are seeing red, but it's a good buy in opportunity. I personally think nokia is a good long term buy. The analysts are only short sighted, and Nokia has done well with their restructuring.

My 2c


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## audio (Apr 19, 2013)

*NOK 2013 Q1 Results*

I've been watching that one for a while now. NOK sales fell by 25% in the last three months. And that's on top of their previous decline. The Lumia is doing okay, but it's never going to return them to their leadership days. If they can manage the downsizing, they might have a future as a small niche player. Or they might not.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> Nope, not exactly backing up the truck yet considering what happened in mid 2012.
> 
> Will there be another déjà vu? Without a crystal ball, I rely in you already know what strategy.


yes T.gal
ur strategy works really well and i know that u are a prudent trader/investor.
what do u think about the gap i mentioned?
:encouragement:


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## dragenn (Jan 22, 2013)

OMG! I just read that the XBox720 is not only good for AMD but because all Microsoft products will exist in some sort of connected eco system think what that might do for those invested in Nokia. 

Just a heads up. I can't believe i didn't notice this earlier long ago.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

dragenn said:


> OMG! I just read that the XBox720 is not only good for AMD but because all Microsoft products will exist in some sort of connected eco system think what that might do for those invested in Nokia.


I think you and I are the only ones with 'intestinal fortitude' to have invested in NOK. :biggrin: 

Speaking of MSFT, I understand that the newest version will be 6x faster. Invested in MSFT btw? I'm already wondering about the potential Xmas sales, what do u think techie?

Now you got me interested in features I had had zero interest before, LOL. 

10 years of Xbox already?! How time flies when you're having fun? Below was written in 2011, so the 'pundits' had been close enough.

*'Indeed the launch of the Xbox 720 is still one of the most widely discussed secrets in gaming, with Microsoft hinting at 2015 and many pundits suggesting that it could be just a year or so away.
*
http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/consoles/ten-years-of-xbox-a-brief-history-1040866

Big day tomorrow for you! :encouragement:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertc...during-microsofts-xbox-announcement-tomorrow/


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## dragenn (Jan 22, 2013)

Im very interested in MSFT but im tapped out on cash. It popped to $34 before l had l a chance to get cash in when it was ~$28. At this point keep $MSFT for a long time, because it going to get wayyyy higher as their app store eventually takes off and adoption grows. I may still get in, if l can find some extra cash but diversifying my portfolio is harder then l thought. I wish l had another $10G. Oh well!

Still kind of wrapping my head around "surface" concepts since that where NOK will get their share of MSFT fun. NOK already up. Very few people have made the connect so this could be interesting. Maybe even a short squeeze ( being hopefully ). Also their ~$100 520 series will score heavy with teens that are heavy associated with Xbox.

I also doubled my my position from my AMD profits LOLOLOLOL!! Risky but NOK is under valued. CEO Elop knows what he doing. He just needs time and NOK investors are getting greedy. Samsung owns the android landscape and suffocated every other vendor. NOK is will a premier vendor and suffocate all other vendors. I get annoyed when people talk about NOK should start producing android phone in hopes of gaining a bit more margins... DUMBA$$ES.


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## dragenn (Jan 22, 2013)

This is what im talking about... Not much love for nokia today. The Xbox reveal wasn't the most informative. Microsoft can really be a dumbass sometimes.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/smartglass

Anyways give it some time for people to settle in. Notice which phone is being used in the demo


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

dragenn said:


> This is what im talking about... Not much love for nokia today. The Xbox reveal wasn't the most informative. Microsoft can really be a dumbass sometimes.
> 
> http://www.xbox.com/en-US/smartglass
> 
> Anyways give it some time for people to settle in. Notice which phone is being used in the demo


XBox One reveal was reasonable, way better than the PS4 release IMO and really only lacking a few details .....


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

dragenn said:


> 1. The Xbox reveal wasn't the most informative. Anyways give it some time for people to settle in.
> 2. Notice which phone is being used in the demo


*1.* I'm sure their goal was to leave you diehard fans wanting/wondering for more [like the price, lol] & saving the juicy details for E3 next month. 

So wanna 'stay up to date on all things E3 before, during and after the event? The E3 2012 Mobile App is still available for download.' :encouragement:

Then there is the GDC in Europe later in Aug., so lots of fun stuff [4 U]. :biggrin: Me, I just want sales numbers, LOL.

*2.* Noted!


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## dragenn (Jan 22, 2013)

Nokia is a great company to jump into as of late. Check out another innovation, low light camera, and 41 MP camera phone, live sight, There probably more but ive been busy trying to make sure my money is safe in GEVO ( looking good ) & ALU ( not so sure, l might take it out, at break even )

http://www.thefullsignal.com/nokia/14642/nokia-here-livesight-comes-maps

http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/nokia-lumia-eos-leaked/

Toronto.gal l think your right. We need to see some games and application using the phone before we see the rush. It a shame because each diversion of nokia is worth it stock price. Oh well, more time to load up


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## dragenn (Jan 22, 2013)

Here's the official link

http://www.nokia.com/global/products/phone/808pureview/


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## dragenn (Jan 22, 2013)

Nokia slowly building steam. It may have lots a ton of money for many investors, but to those who came in recently it'll make a killing. Probably break even for those who lost.

Currently Nokia is heavily invested in this technology with lots of patents. Imagine "basic" 3d Images and video in 2014. I think the EOS phone is a derivative of this technology

Good luck all longs


http://www.pelicanimaging.com/technology/3D_video.html


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## dragenn (Jan 22, 2013)

The Huweii buy rumour just put Nokia on the map as it's not build a steady base in the $3.8X's. The wonderful thing is... Even if they disappoint with sales ( which is looking positive ). Analyst will be looking under the hood the find that Nokia true evaluation will be far higher then it current stock price, and their prospect far underestimated. Otherwise why would a giant like microsoft back Nokia. It wasn't a move of desperation. They know far more about this stock then we do.

* Currently developing Grapheme. Hardest material so far. Can also be modified to make batteries that can charge in seconds... Seconds, and images sensor with 10x the light sensitivity and 5x cheaper to make. Or vice versa ( sorry go do a background check. I want to write this post quickly )
* Pelican array camera. Capable of 3d images and videos along side the software to process these images.
* Quad core updates with the next WP8 blue update. Among the fastest running phone putting Android to absolute shame.



Dont forget these have been wall with patents that will make Nokia a portion for every phone sold. Currently im heavy im Nokia now, it actually ripped my attention away from AMD my previous favourite stock.


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