# The cost of things in bygone days



## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/70yearsofpricechange.html


this is US prices, but I assume there is a resemblance to us as well. 

In 1930:

average wage: $1970.00 annual

New home: $3845.00
New car: 600.00
loaf of bread 9 cents...

and so on. I wonder what a 1930's house, less thyan 2x's the average wage, would be like. 

Currently average wage for individual, (not household) in cdn is about $50,000. What would a house be like priced at about 100,000?


----------



## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Interestingly, the 1930's average wage comes to $29,727.65 when adjusted for infaltion. But the average wage now is something like $50,000. That suggests an extra 20,000 in income. where is it going? why do people say they can't get by, or ahead?


----------



## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

i am pretty sure i remember my grandad buying a house here in victoria for $4000.00 with 4 bedrooms and a maids quarters (and a maid) ... it was/is a large, beautiful two-story house ... he was a stockbroker in the 30's

same house today is 1.5-2M ... depending on work needed i guess ??

median household in victoria is 90K ... average single family home is like 700K i am guessing 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Median_household_income_of_cities_in_Canada

this is going nowhere good ... in 1917, the proletariat all just moved into the mansions of the wealthy

maybe we'll all get our own coffin home ?


----------



## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

Pluto said:


> Interestingly, the 1930's average wage comes to $29,727.65 when adjusted for infaltion. But the average wage now is something like $50,000. That suggests an extra 20,000 in income. where is it going? why do people say they can't get by, or ahead?


Taxes are way up since the 1930s and those inflation calculators are all understated.


----------



## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

You don't have to look as far back as 1930 to see the amazing effects of inflation. I bought my first new house in Winnipeg in 1972, for $18,995. The mortgage was $16,551. I still remember those numbers well after all these years because it seemed like an enormous amount to me at the time, and I lost sleep worrying about owing that much. First new car was a 1971 Toyota Corona which was $1,900. Gas was 38 cents/Imperial Gallon. The tank would not hold more than $3.00 worth of gas. My salary at that time: $4,000 per year.


----------



## Koogie (Dec 15, 2014)

Pluto said:


> Currently average wage in cdn is about $50,000. What would a house be like priced at about 100,000?


Populations were much more rural in the 30s. There are lots of rural homes available all across Canada today in the 100-150K range.

Perhaps this tells us as much about urbanization as it does about prices.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I made $4/hour in 1974...my 1 bedroom apartment in Edmonton was $80/month. Glass of draft beer was 20 cents...smokes were 55 cents. I lived pretty high on the hog.


----------



## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Big Kahuna said:


> Taxes are way up since the 1930s and those inflation calculators are all understated.


could be. currently a loaf of bread is about $2.50 US That's a 3.85% annual compound increase. the inflation calculator says the bread should be 1.36, so you have a point on the bread issue.


----------



## new dog (Jun 21, 2016)

There are a lot of extras today like cell phone bills, cable bills, higher use of electricity and fees that are added in to today's costs to name a few.


----------



## new dog (Jun 21, 2016)

I should also add in costs like interest on credit cards, consumer loans and buy now and pay later which they tried to stay away from in those days.


----------



## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

There are about what, 3 times as many people in this country as 1930s? Scarcity is a thing, add more people and land and housing will get more expensive. Go back another 50 years, and you could basically have all of the land you wanted for nearly free in the majority of the country by just living on it and in some cases, just by having your livestock on it. Wait, land isn't free anymore? Times have really gone to crap.


----------



## canew90 (Jul 13, 2016)

Lets hope we never see the double digit 70's inflation rates.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

If you look at houses built over the years they've been getting steadily bigger over the decades. Had to compare today's McMansions to the 1950's war house or the 1930's houses. Even though they are all probably 3 bedroom places. One was 900 sq.ft, one was 1200sq.ft and one is over 2000 sq.ft.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Pluto said:


> could be. currently a loaf of bread is about $2.50 US That's a 3.85% annual compound increase. the inflation calculator says the bread should be 1.36, so you have a point on the bread issue.


Don't know where you buy bread, $5 for asiago chiabata, or a nice loaf of potato cheddar or rye. Of course, try to buy one of these back in the 30's and you'd have a hard time with anything but the rye I suspect.

The quality and choices available for food has come a long way, even in the last 20 years. Persimmons, dragon fruit, sterling grade beef...couldn't find this stuff ever a few years back.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Pluto said:


> I wonder what a 1930's house, less thyan 2x's the average wage, would be like.


We bought our first home in 1972. It was also under 2x my annual salary at age 32. It was a 3 bedroom side split with attached garage and finished basement in mid range subdivision. About 1300sq.ft on main floor. 65ft lot.


----------



## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

Pluto said:


> could be. currently a loaf of bread is about $2.50 US That's a 3.85% annual compound increase. the inflation calculator says the bread should be 1.36, so you have a point on the bread issue.


By consistently understating inflation, real GDP growth is consistently overstated, which is the main reason for understating inflation. Long term, 3.85% looks reasonable when comparing different items-maybe a little bit on the low side IMO.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Pluto said:


> ... I wonder what a 1930's house, less than 2x's the average wage, would be like.


I suspect that like today, where one is buying will affect what will be getting for a set price. There also won't be things like central a/c or vacuums, there may be maid's quarters




Pluto said:


> ... Currently average wage for individual, (not household) in cdn is about $50,000. What would a house be like priced at about 100,000?


Location, location, location.

Here is one with four bedrooms, two baths at 1,350 square feet which is listed for $87K.
https://www.point2homes.com/CA/Home...George-Street-Sydney-NS-B1P-1H8/60391006.html
Another with 3 bedrooms, one bath at 1,292 for $99,900.
https://www.point2homes.com/CA/Home-For-Sale/MB/Brandon/431-Brentwood-Court/62288154.html

I suspect that one would be in a condo or small house in say, Vancouver or Toronto.


Cheers


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Eclectic12,

I'm sorry but it's been decreed by the real estate "experts" on this board that such properties don't exist, and possibly never have existed. Please stop confusing the issue with fact. GTA and GTV residents are never wrong about things like this. 


BTW, 100k probably wouldn't get you a vacant lot in either GTA or GVA, let alone a condo or small house. The rest of Canada you could probably get at least that, but what would I know.


----------



## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Just a Guy said:


> Don't know where you buy bread, $5 for asiago chiabata, or a nice loaf of potato cheddar or rye. Of course, try to buy one of these back in the 30's and you'd have a hard time with anything but the rye I suspect.
> 
> The quality and choices available for food has come a long way, even in the last 20 years. Persimmons, dragon fruit, sterling grade beef...couldn't find this stuff ever a few years back.


As I mentioned in the first post, these were US prices. It didn't seem to make sense use a 1930's US price, and then a current CDN price.


----------



## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Big Kahuna said:


> By consistently understating inflation, real GDP growth is consistently overstated, which is the main reason for understating inflation. Long term, 3.85% looks reasonable when comparing different items-maybe a little bit on the low side IMO.


Interesting. do you have an alt inflation index? What method can we use to gage if we are economically better or worse off than days gone by?


----------



## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Inflation is regional, so it will be different all across Canada. The official number is just an average.

In Vancouver you're undoubtedly worse off, unless you already owned a detached home. 15 years ago you could get a mortgage on a detached home with a mechanic's income. Now you need a household income of like 250K.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Pluto said:


> Just a Guy said:
> 
> 
> > Pluto said:
> ...


Which makes it interesting as I seem to recall my father talking about five cents a load in Toronto in the late '30's.

StatCan for whatever reason has a 1 1lb white loaf of bread in 1920 as 9.3 cents and 1930 as 7.5 cents. The low in the '30's seems to be 1935 at 5.6 cents.
https://www65.statcan.gc.ca/acyb02/1937/acyb02_19370800009b-eng.htm


Cheers


----------



## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Cars look to be slightly more expensive. One can still buy a new car for 11-11.5K. Comes close to matching inflation in wages.
A loaf of decent bread (we like a 'light rye') costs about 1.66 around here. That about matches the inflation in wages.

Clearly, the house price has increased substantially. You can still buy a place around here for 2-3x income, but it won't be the nicest and won't be detached.


----------



## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Pluto said:


> Interestingly, the 1930's average wage comes to $29,727.65 when adjusted for infaltion. But the average wage now is something like $50,000. That suggests an extra 20,000 in income. where is it going? why do people say they can't get by, or ahead?


1930's was probably a bad base for comparison, as it was the midst of the Great Depression. But as others have noted, a great part of it is rising expectations. (Call it "standard of living" if you prefer). The "average" person had fewer possessions and lived in a smaller home.


----------



## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

OhGreatGuru said:


> 1930's was probably a bad base for comparison, as it was the midst of the Great Depression. But as others have noted, a great part of it is rising expectations. (Call it "standard of living" if you prefer). The "average" person had fewer possessions and lived in a smaller home.


Much of a house's value is actually the cost of the land, though. If anything, lot sizes are smaller now than in the 1930's. 

But let's say you buy a 1930's vacant lot for $1 million (that might even be considered cheap in Vancouver). And let's say you build a 1000 sqft house (I don't know what was normal in 1930, so I'm just guessing). It might cost 150K to build the house at $150 per square foot. That means the house represents about 13% of total cost. Even if you doubled the size of the house to 2000 sqft, it's still dwarfed by the cost of the land itself. I'm sure the building cost and land cost varies by location, just illustrating a point.

Point being, the house size isn't the biggest factor in the total cost. Possessions are even less of a factor, unless you actually own over 100K in possessions (you can get a lot of stuff for that kind of money). The average person may own a lot of stuff, but most of it didn't cost a great deal of money.


----------



## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

Pluto said:


> Interesting. do you have an alt inflation index? What method can we use to gage if we are economically better or worse off than days gone by?


The guy at Shadowstats has made a whole study of it-my guesstimate is just from observation-when you look at the basket of goods they use it is absurd-they overweight meaningless stuff like laptops and TVs-which aren't going to make or break anybody. They look for stuff that has gone down in price and up in quality and overweight it. The other thing is-taxes is way more important than people realize and taxes of all types continually rise decade after decade.


----------



## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

The number of hours needed to work to buy x amount of goods & services in most cases has come down as technology becomes more efficient while number of hours worked to pay taxes has increased


----------



## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

yes, its a value laden judgement as to what to put in a basket of goods, and what year to start. Are laptops and TV's important enough? 
however a loaf of bread in pre-depression 1929 was 9 cents according to https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=umn.31951d02928953b;view=1up;seq=243

Seems so far, there is no clear answer if we are better off, or worse off compared to days gone by. 

the number of hours needed to work for to buy X, seems promising way to make an evaluation of the problem.


----------



## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

One could argue that we're better off in the sense that we have more options than ever before. Much of that is superficial -- cheap thrills and baubles to distract ourselves from the fact that we're working more hours to attain the same basic standard of living that was common in the past.

We might all have smartphones, iPads and TVs with Netflix in every room, but both spouses are working just to pay the rent/mortgage and put the kids in daycare.

I mean, you can buy a 50" TV for $500. No one is going to argue we're worse off when it comes to entertainment options. You can fill a house with electronic gizmos for 10K... but just try buying the house.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I think it’s very clear we’re better off. The quality of food and life, even for the poor is significantly better than when I was a kid even. Of course that doesn’t prevent people from living beyond their means or wanting everything now instead of saving for it or doing without. Those are lifestyles and attitude problems though which seem to have come with the bounty. 

As for land prices being the major factor in real estate costs that depends on where you are. Outside of gta and gva land prices are significantly less. In some provinces like Saskatchewan, land is almost free still.


----------



## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> I think it’s very clear we’re better off. The quality of food and life, even for the poor is significantly better than when I was a kid even.
> 
> As for land prices being the major factor in real estate costs that depends on where you are. Outside of gta and gva land prices are significantly less. In some provinces like Saskatchewan, land is almost free still.


IMO the median standard of living in Canada is higher than in 1964, but whether it is higher than in 1979 is debatable-the average worker made huge gains from 1964 to 1979.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

In the 70’s we had one TV, no computers, never saw food like dragonfruit. Mandarin oranges just came at Christmas. Canned goods were common, fresh food limited, we had less clothes, shoes were bad, we had one car and the family home was smaller. 

Today people have multiple TVs, computers, access to information, houses are bigger, number of cars is close to the number of drivers, food is way better...I also think there are more opportunities out there especially for women and those who don’t want a paycheque lifestyle. You may argue that life was more “secure” for the paycheque people. Work your whole life and retire on a pension, but that’s because they didn’t have to do anything other than work. By learning a bit about investing, one can do much better in the long run than anyone who works for a paycheque. As I said, more opportunities to succeed because you weren’t locked into go to school, get a job and retire mentality. 

I’d take today over the 70’s in a second, and not just because of the clothes and music.


----------



## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> In the 70’s we had one TV, no computers, never saw food like dragonfruit. Mandarin oranges just came at Christmas. Canned goods were common, fresh food limited, we had less clothes, shoes were bad, we had one car and the family home was smaller.
> 
> Today people have multiple TVs, computers, access to information, houses are bigger, number of cars is close to the number of drivers, food is way better...I also think there are more opportunities out there especially for women and those who don’t want a paycheque lifestyle. You may argue that life was more “secure” for the paycheque people. Work your whole life and retire on a pension, but that’s because they didn’t have to do anything other than work. By learning a bit about investing, one can do much better in the long run than anyone who works for a paycheque. As I said, more opportunities to succeed because you weren’t locked into go to school, get a job and retire mentality.
> 
> I’d take today over the 70’s in a second, and not just because of the clothes and music.


Definitely more opportunities now-OTOH way more poverty because not everybody succeeds-IMO 1970s music was fantastic all around.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I had the benefit of visiting my Dad until he died at 95. His life had stalled at 1970 when his wife died. Tube TV with OTA stations in Toronto. Simple meals. Nothing prepackaged, not even KD! I used to treat him to a burger and fries when I dropped in. He never ate out. No computer. Still had a dial phone on the wall of the kitchen.

I would say that he was happy but I would not be. He also lived frugally on a modest pension. Never invested in a stock or bond. Only GICs.

If you can manage expectations, you can live frugally. But why would you?


----------



## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

It seems the consensus is that economically the average income individual is better off than, say, the mid '60's. 
Better food is debatable as processed food is currently blamed for obesity and related heath problems. I suppose if one resists the temptation to use that stuff, food is at least as good. 
Better inventions, and improvments on existing inventions are certainly of benifit. 

but I'm wondering more about disposable income of the average income in days gone by vs now. Does the average - about 50,000 now, offer more dosposable income that the average in the mid 1960's. How would we measure it accurately?


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Sorry, I cook from scratch, so do all my kids as I taught them from the age where they could reach the stove. They also bake, so I don’t think of processed food when I think of food. My kids also hate fast food as they know what real food should taste like.

As for disposable income, I think too many people today are spending money on their toys. People today have more toys and goods than we had in the past. They don’t know how to do without, it’s their right to have anything they want and have it today. They have cabins or cottages, multiple cars, seadoos, skidoos, quads, dirt bikes, computers, boats, RVs, TVs, every kid has a cell phone and data plan, high speed internet, streaming video, 100+ channels of cable, you name it they’ve got it (most probably financed). 

Again, their choice. When I was a kid, we still knew the word “No”.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

He who dies with the most toys............wins !


----------



## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Houses have gotten bigger, but yards have gotten smaller, and more people are moving into condos (smaller) and are more are choosing to rent than in the past. The average person is actually making do with less space.

We always hear that people have more cars in the driveway, but actual statistics show a decrease in car usage, and fewer young people getting their licenses.

Better food is available, but the usage of processed foods is increasing... either due to cost or lack of time -- ie, both spouses working, so less time to cook.

People have more stuff, but most of it is cheaply made in China... stuff made today is overwhelmingly disposable, so you just end up buying it again in five years.


----------



## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

sags said:


> He who dies with the most toys............wins !


 A few years ago I read the 2 biggest expenses the average person will pay over their lifetime was interest & taxes. Then there are those out there that understand Einsteins theory. 

Those that do not understand compound interest pay it those that understand compound interest make it. A dollar used as seed corn to make more dollars or a dollar used to slave you to a job to pay interest on the dollar used to buy a toy. 

For my self the most moral thing for me to do to produce the most long term happiness based on living to 100+ is plant some of the dollar as seed corn though @ some point need to harvest the fruit. I think part of the harvest will be buying a deferred life gold annuity off of a Swiss annuity company when gold gets to around the 08 lows then after the top of a 3rd wave rally in gold & death credits have been added start spending the money till I die.


----------



## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

^^ I notieced teens not being in a rush to get their drivers license back in the 1990's. They wanted a pc to play video games and parents couldn't get them out of the house. Then it was xbox/playstation and they had to plug it into the TV. I guess more recently it is smartphones,texting and what not in lieu of cars. In the old days an 18 year old would leave home in a huff and burn rubber on the way out of the driveway. These days its a back pack and an uber. 

But I'm still trying to figure out if the average indiviual income is more than the average way back when. Originally, I thought the inflation calculator would determine that, but that got shot down as biased. I have relatives who insist they were economically better off in the 50's and 60's. Usually their big complaint is current taxes and government debt. But I don't know if they are just old fogey complaining especially since they developed a habit of expensive trips and vacations - something they never did way back when.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

It all depends on where you live. Some cities you can easily get around without a car and don't need one. When I lived in Vancouver I could walk to most things I needed on a daily basis and the transit took care of the rest. However, if you're in any of the prairie provinces, you'll probably need a car as the distances between places is measured by time driving. 

As for houses getting smaller, not really. Average wartime house size was 900sq.ft. Average 70's place was 12-1500 sq.ft.. average house today is about 2000-2200. Ironically, the lot sizes have remained the same over those years. My house that was built in the 50's (900 sq.ft) was on a lot that was only 10 feet narrower than the 70's house (1400sq.ft) that I moved into as I grew in needs. Many of the houses in the first neighbourhood we being bought and torn down for 2000 sq.ft. Houses to be built. The lots were the same as new lots, but the houses were closer to the established needs.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

nathan79 said:


> Better food is available, but the usage of processed foods is increasing... either due to cost or lack of time -- ie, both spouses working, so less time to cook..


In our locale, the local supermarkets (City Market, Fresh Street, Meinhardts and Whole Foods) all offer food bars with substantial choices of good wholesome food. No need for KD or frozen meals. As long as you live in a city neighbourhood, there are plenty of choices.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

In 1930 my grandparents lived in a semi detached house in Port Hope. They paid $6 a month rent. The landlord offered to sell my grandfather the house for no money down and $12 a month. He could have paid his usual $6 and collected $6 from the tenant in the other side.

Too smart to be taken in, he turned the deal down. Did not want to be stuck for taxes, insurance, and repairs.

He never owned a house until 12 years later when he built it himself, on land my grandmother got by some smart real estate dealing. He was in his forties before he owned his own home but then it was free and clear.


----------



## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

When I was about 8, so around 1973, I was riding my bike in the schoolyard when I found a quarter. I took it to the store and bought a pack of gum, some candy, and a pop.


----------

