# Ontario Hydro rates



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Government has announced that users will have a choice between time-of-use pricing and tiered pricing starting Nov 1.

i think as a heavy user with electric heat, I’ll be better off with tou. 

I’d love to see the actual pricing details.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Yeah, when I read that announcement it was just after I heard they were going to extent the flat rate, yet the price was jumping from 10 cents to 12 cents. When I retired I installed a timer in my electric water heater so it only came on at night, and since the water heater was my largest consumer of electricity, it had a big impact on my bill.

The flat rate at 10 cents was the same as the night time rate, so I didn't save much with that program, but when they said the flat rate was going to continue for a while longer, but at 12 cents, I figure I'd rather go back to TOU.

Now we have this new announcement.

I was thinking at one time of changing my water heater to gas, but now they have that cursed "carbon tax" on gas, so that idea is out. Electricity doesn't have the tax.

ltr


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I'd rather choose TOU starting now, thanks.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, when I read that announcement it was just after I heard they were going to extent the flat rate, yet the price was jumping from 10 cents to 12 cents. When I retired I installed a timer in my electric water heater so it only came on at night, and since the water heater was my largest consumer of electricity, it had a big impact on my bill.
> 
> The flat rate at 10 cents was the same as the night time rate, so I didn't save much with that program, but when they said the flat rate was going to continue for a while longer, but at 12 cents, I figure I'd rather go back to TOU.
> 
> ...


Gas is still cheaper. Just don't get a rental.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

andrewf said:


> Gas is still cheaper. Just don't get a rental.



So even after I spend $1000 on a new gas water heater and pay a gas man $400 to run the piping and have a water heater guy drill holes in my walls for the PVC venting pipes and install the heater for $500, it's still cheaper than running an electric water heater at night at 10 cents a KWH for a few hours? The math just doesn't support it, so I decided to stick with my electric. Then they added carbon tax to the gas bills and that clinched it for me.

ltr


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

andrewf said:


> Gas is still cheaper. Just don't get a rental.


It's not cheaper if you already have an all-electric house as Money 172375 does. Especially if there are no gas lines nearby.

We are also all-electric, but we have a high efficiency air source heat pump that cuts heating cost in half. Provides cooling too, which gas does not. We do have gas at highway, but we chose not to use it. 

Most of our electricity generation in Ontario produces very little carbon. Changes in the Building Codes down the road will apparently require all new construction to based on air or ground sourced heat pumps. Seems we are ahead of the curve  There was a time when all you got was a blank look if you asked about heat pumps in Ontario.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> Government has announced that users will have a choice between time-of-use pricing and tiered pricing starting Nov 1.
> 
> i think as a heavy user with electric heat, I’ll be better off with tou.
> 
> I’d love to see the actual pricing details.


Hopefully it will not just be an excuse to put rates back up again. TOU at present is good seeing rate is evening rate all day! We use a lot of electricity and have been on TOU for quite a while.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

agent99 said:


> Hopefully it will not just be an excuse to put rates back up again. TOU at present is good seeing rate is evening rate all day! We use a lot of electricity and have been on TOU for quite a while.


to clarify....we have an air source heat pump as well. It’s great in the shoulder seasons, but my bills in Jan, feb are extremely high as the backup electric furnace provides most of the Heat. Our air pump is about 10 yrs old And is pretty ineffective below 5 degrees. I’ve read the new ones can provide heat well below 0 degrees. I’d love to hear some real world experience.

heat pumps are the future. I don’t know why more cottages and seasonal homes dont have them. They’re perfect in April and october to provide a little heat and A/C in the summer.

heat pump water heaters will also become more popular soon too.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, when I read that announcement it was just after I heard they were going to extent the flat rate, yet the price was jumping from 10 cents to 12 cents. When I retired I installed a timer in my electric water heater so it only came on at night, and since the water heater was my largest consumer of electricity, it had a big impact on my bill.
> 
> The flat rate at 10 cents was the same as the night time rate, so I didn't save much with that program, but when they said the flat rate was going to continue for a while longer, but at 12 cents, I figure I'd rather go back to TOU.
> 
> ...


is installing a timer difficult? Does It remain completely off 7am-7pm? The water stays hot throughout the day?


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Anyone have experience with a single point-of-use water heater (tank or tankless)? Our master bath is at the opposite end of the hot water tank and needs to run for about a minute before hot water arrives. Been looking at a tank unit that goes under the sink supplied by a regular 120v.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Money172375 said:


> to clarify....we have an air source heat pump as well. It’s great in the shoulder seasons, but my bills in Jan, feb are extremely high as the backup electric furnace provides most of the Heat. Our air pump is about 10 yrs old And is pretty ineffective below 5 degrees. I’ve read the new ones can provide heat well below 0 degrees. I’d love to hear some real world experience.
> 
> heat pumps are the future. I don’t know why more cottages and seasonal homes dont have them. They’re perfect in April and october to provide a little heat and A/C in the summer.
> 
> heat pump water heaters will also become more popular soon too.


I think milliondollarjourney has a blog post about heat pumps. 

Heat pumps would be an interesting option. Not sure it is always practical to only run a water heater at night. Maybe if you have a big tank or little usage.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Money172375 said:


> is installing a timer difficult? Does It remain completely off 7am-7pm? The water stays hot throughout the day?


It's not too difficult, but then electronic engineering was my occupation before I retired. You can set any number of off/on times, but I have mine simply turn on for four hours in the middle of the night. I also have a water heater blanket to help keep the heat in. I never run out of hot water.

ltr


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^If you have to have a electric hwt, it's a smart was to use it. And stuff like this is why TOU works. We used to have posters here that absolutely raged about TOU pricing.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Money - We have had a Mitsubishi Zuba central heat pump for 9 years. It has almost paid for itself!
When we installed it, we also upgraded our home insulation and eliminated as many leaks as we could. (House was tested before and after by energy consultant as part of government rebate program back then). So it is hard to say just how much it saves. My theoretical calculation said it would cut heating cost by 1/2 and that seems to be about right. It heats a 1650 sq.ft part of our home and still maintains set temperature at -22C outdoor temperature. No maintenance has been needed in 9 years.

Regarding hot water, we do have a timer. It turns hot water on at 7pm, off at 11pm, on at 4am, off at 7am. Not sure how much it helps. We do have an insulation blanket on tank. There is a manual switch, so we turn that on when we have guests or on weekends if we wish.

We have same problem with distance from HW tank. In our case, one bathroom and the kitchen. I have thought about point of use in past. A whole house unit requires a lot of power and not all homes have sufficient service. Any useful point of use units, will likely need 30A breaker and new heavy duty wiring to the location. Those 120V under sink units usually have a small tank and would not be much good for a shower or bath.

There is a type of valve/pump that ensures water is always hot at distant locations. Suspect not that energy efficient though. https://www.homedepot.ca/product/watts-instant-hot-water-recirculating-system/1000728120


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Thanks. Mind me asking what the Zumba set you back? Did That included the air handler and any type of backup source? From what I’ve read, the Zumba is top-class. 

we moved in 2017. I had some guys come up to quote propane conversion. Was looking at a dual fuel (air source hp with propane backup). The whole package (new furnace, hp, air handler) was about 10,000. When I did the math, while propane was marginally cheaper, it didn’t offset the cost, and our units are working well and not extremely old. Previous owner put r50 in the attic, and the windows are new. Home was built in 1978....new vinyl siding. Not sure what the insulation in the walls is like.

ill have a big choice when it comes to replacing it.......I just worry about it failing in the winter and having to make a rush decision.

as For the under sink heater, I’m really just interested in the sink hot water. The shower feels like it gets hot much quicker......higher flow? Or am I dreaming as the copper pipe size is the same?


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## Dilbert (Nov 20, 2016)

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/watts-instant-hot-water-recirculating-system/1000728120?eid=PS_GOOGLE_D22%20-%20E-Comm_GGL_Shopping_PLA_EN_Building%20Materials_Building%20Materials_PLA_EN__PRODUCT_GROUP_pla-308729290475&gclid=CjwKCAjw8df2BRA3EiwAvfZWaNEzPlrm4Re-y6iDVY0JYeIgbXh7PqANWKio_NxHrIB643IBQ6WVjhoCpKMQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## alexincash (May 27, 2020)

TOU is super right now. Since I'm working from home TOU is convenient for me


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

The Zuba is expensive. But at the time, it was the only system with the technology that allowed it to work at our winter temperatures. Our whole project was about $20k, and the Mitsubishi about $15k of that. It did include the outdoor unit, matching air handler, controls, additional ductwork and insulation of ductwork (It runs in attic). We have no backup heating in the unit itself and never had a need. We do still have our baseboard heaters as backup, but leave the breakers turned off.

In your case, it will be hard to justify a change. The savings would just be from when your existing unit approaches the bottom of it's efficient range. 

One thing one contractor/friend suggested, was to put is a gas/propane fired boiler (hot water heater) and use hot water as the backup heat source. A Mitsubishi dealer once told me that that was they often did instead of using electrical backup heat that required significant additional wiring/panel capacity.

The restriction in the water flow is mainly the fitting at the end, not the pipe. So it is possible a shower head allows more flow than a faucet. If you measure the flow, you will find out 

Have to run - my lake water pump just failed


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Dilbert said:


> https://www.homedepot.ca/product/watts-instant-hot-water-recirculating-system/1000728120?eid=PS_GOOGLE_D22%20-%20E-Comm_GGL_Shopping_PLA_EN_Building%20Materials_Building%20Materials_PLA_EN__PRODUCT_GROUP_pla-308729290475&gclid=CjwKCAjw8df2BRA3EiwAvfZWaNEzPlrm4Re-y6iDVY0JYeIgbXh7PqANWKio_NxHrIB643IBQ6WVjhoCpKMQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


I already posted that link - see #14 above  Except yours is a lot longer


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

alexincash said:


> TOU is super right now. Since I'm working from home TOU is convenient for me


Where are you located? Tou doesn’t exist in Ontario until Nov.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

We are just outside Kingston, on Hydro One, and classified as medium density residential. We have had TOU for some years, but you are correct - TOU is on hold because of the pandemic and we currently pay the lowest rate. 

Spare pump is installed!


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

agent99 said:


> We are just outside Kingston, on Hydro One, and classified as medium density residential. We have had TOU for some years, but you are correct - TOU is on hold because of the pandemic and we currently pay the lowest rate.
> 
> Spare pump is installed!


keep in mind the “lowest” rate was raised from 10 to 12 cents yesterday.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> keep in mind the “lowest” rate was raised from 10 to 12 cents yesterday.


 You are right! We never heard that.


> Now, the government has introduced a new “COVID-19 recovery rate” of 12.8 cents per kilowatt hour at all times of the day. The fixed price will be in place from June 1 to Oct. 31.
> 
> The fixed price is higher than the winter off-peak price, which stood at 10.1 per kilowatt hour. However, it is lower than the mid-peak rate of 14.4 per kilowatt hour and the high-peak rate of 20.8 per kilowatt hour.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

agent99 said:


> You are right! We never heard that.


Did you hear about the other change? You’ll be able (in nov, I assume) to choose between tou or tiered pricing.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> Did you hear about the other change? You’ll be able (in nov, I assume) to choose between tou or tiered pricing.


Yes, but doubt tiered could be better than TOU for us. Unless they made it cheaper the more you use 

We get some sort of rebate as well. Don't know what is happening with that.


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