# Power of Attorney for Property (POA)



## ttibsen (Sep 27, 2015)

My mom lives in a retirement home in Toronto.
My sister and I live in other provinces.
My mom's entire estate has been reduced to three bank accounts held at the Bank of Nova Scotia (BNS)
Recently my mom had a new will drawn up and has given my sister and I POA status.
I thought that this was all that was needed in order to access mom's bank accounts when the need arose.
But no - apparently the BNS has it's own POA form that mom has to fill out - which leaves me wondering -

Did we ever need both the lawyer's POA and the BNS's POA or is the bank's the only POA that was required?

In a practical sense, when the need arises that we have to exercise our POA privileges - what happens?
Do we simply show up at our local branch of the BNS and access her bank accounts as needed?
Will they have us on file as individuals who have POA over the accounts and can transfer and withdraw funds as needed?

It's not a pleasant thought, but the day will come when we will have to do these things and that in itself will
be stressful enough without having to discover that we do not have access to her funds at the BNS because
we overlooked some procedural aspect of the POA.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Interesting. We had POA. We had joint access on the bank account. BUT, our POA allowed us to get into the safe deposit box.

Once the bank was in possession of the death certificate, the POA ended of course and all accounts were frozen until we completed the Probate process. The bank also insisted on both children being present when we opened and inventoried the safety deposit box after death. We had access in the intervening period between actual death and the bank receiving the death certificate. The bank did have copies of the legal POA's on file. 

The POA was critical to us. It allowed us to sell a condo and transact some other business that my mother's dementia would have delayed by months and increased the legal fess substantially. Not to mention the strain on us personally.

I would get this seen to. Also look into the probate and probate tax in your province. We were able to arrange affairs prior to death such that the probate process was simple (we did it ourselves w/no legal fees) and we reduced the probate tax to a minimum (British Columbia).


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

Its been a while since I have been involved in these matters but the following is my recollection:
1. Yes, Banks that I am aware of have there own PA form. (there is probably a liability waiver in it???)
2. A separate form which was called "Appointment of Agent" was required for SDB access. This may have changed???
3. Both the Appointment of Agent and PA cease upon the death of the person who granted the access. (Makes sense as the deceased affairs get transferred to the Executor(s) of the estate.)
4. A PA does not allow for the attorney to withdraw cash. (Makes sense as the purpose of the PA is to assist the account holder in managing their affairs as opposed to giving cash to the attorney. Not sure if the attorney can write a cheque to themselves but at least in this case their would be a paper trail)

Different financial institutions may have slightly different rules and again, years ago, the bank could submit a lawyer prepared PA to its Regional Office for approval but it was normally simpler just to have the customer sign their own form.


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## Itchy54 (Feb 12, 2012)

My father suffered a serious stoke just about one year ago. I was designated his POA so I took the document to his major bank, TD and they were great. I was registered on his account as his POA and got an access card which I show when I do his banking, along with my drivers licence. They have been great to deal with. I emptied his safety deposit box and closed that account ( there was nothing of value). I can take cash, just not whopping amounts, that I can give to my dad so he has some cash on him or to buy things for him (drug store stuff and things like that). I, of course, document everything! I pay all his bills through this account. His retirement residence rent comes directly out of his account. His shaw bill is charged to his visa as are his meds and the care I have hired for him, and the visa is paid automatically.

CRA was also surprisingly good to work with. I can access my dad's tax account online and this was very helpful when I got a disability tax credit for him. All his paperwork is mailed to me.

Dad has other accounts at numerous banks (ug, thanks dad). tangerine was weird...lots of forms to fill out with someone verifying my identity, and then a small charge. Honestly I have just left that account as is as dad does not need it yet.

Scotia bank said I needed him to fill out their power of attorney form. I basically told them to stuff it as I had a legal document to deal with my dad's money. I told them the reason dad did this was in case something awful happened and something awful did happen. How on earth can I have a man who has suffered a stroke sign or even understand their document. Honestly, that pissed me off. they sent that legal document to their lawyers and I now have access to my dad's scotia bank account. It is just a RIF so I don't really need to do anything.

Westminster savings was ok but I had other issues with them. Long stupid story I don't even want to think about.

All in all, I always bring my original document and stand my ground. It is a legal document. I found that a lot of the customer service people I encountered really do not have a lot of experience with these kinds of things. I made sure to educate myself with what I can and cannot do. I cannot give myself money. I can claim reasonable expenses that are incurred while dealing with POA business. I have only claimed gas once as my dad lives a four hour drive away.

Good luck to you. I am happy to do this for my dad but it's a bigger job than I thought. Before your mom actually needs your help get all the paperwork done at her bank....make sure they take a copy of your POA. Getting dad's banking and tax mail was very important as he could not understand it. It all comes to me now.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Interesting story Itchy54. You're right - the banks have instituted their own forms for their own administrative convenience. 
Presumably in their opinion their bank clerks aren't qualified to pass judgment on third-party prepared forms, and they don't want to send every such POA to their legal department to have it approved. But it seems they will approve third party forms if pressed, and you set out an excellent argument for why they should. A properly executed POA is a legal document that ought to be acceptable to anyone - that is it's purpose. (But don't try to tell that to Veterans' Affairs - but that's another story.)


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Itchy, perhaps you can answer me this question. Did you just show up with the POA and tell them that your father suffered a stroke or did you have some other documentation available to prove the stroke or that the POA was now to be used.


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## Itchy54 (Feb 12, 2012)

All I did was go to the bank with my documentation. I made an appointment of course...I had no proof that dad had a stroke.
As soon as power of attorney is declared (as soon as you have the documentation) it can be instituted whenever you want, it is valid right way. It can also be revoked by the issuer(?, don't know if that is the correct term) at any time. You do not have to prove it is needed, at least in BC. Some people use POA if they are out of the country for long periods to have others pay bills and such.

This has been a huge learning curve for me!


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## Itchy54 (Feb 12, 2012)

http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/00_96370_01

Good outline for BC residents on what POA covers. It does say in this document that as soon as two witnesses sign the form it is valid.
I have enduring POA and it is good if my dad loses his capability to care for himself.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

My parents both had POA's, up to date wills, and pre planned funeral arrangements.

This was their final gift to us. I had to manage my mother's affairs for quite some time. Having these in place greatly reduced the emotional stress, work, legal fees, and probate costs. Veteran's Affairs were terrific, as was Service Canada and CRA. The RBC bank contact was great and it was at her suggestion that we do the probate ourselves. The clerk at the Court House reviewed our probate documents for accuracy and also told us that she could notarize them when we were ready to submit.

The big surprise....ICBC. They seemed to think that POA was in force after death. I tried to convince them otherwise and eventually stopped communicating with them.


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## ttibsen (Sep 27, 2015)

Thanks to all for those very illuminating replies. In the end though, I am still uncertain as to whether I need both POA's, the one drawn up by mom's lawyer and the BNS's own POA form, or whether the POA that the BNS demands be signed right in their branch is sufficient by itself (in which case - why did I bother with the lawyer's POA?).


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## Itchy54 (Feb 12, 2012)

I believe the bank POA is only for the bank. The lawyer version is needed for taxes, insurances, some health issues (I needed to show it to my dad's doctor to get forms for disability credit signed and dealing with my dad's current health needs and assessments) and really anything else.

I am hugely annoyed by the bank POA....why on earth can't some banks acknowledge an official POA?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Itchy54 said:


> I believe the bank POA is only for the bank. The lawyer version is needed for taxes, insurances, some health issues (I needed to show it to my dad's doctor to get forms for disability credit signed and dealing with my dad's current health needs and assessments) and really anything else.
> 
> I am hugely annoyed by the bank POA....why on earth can't some banks acknowledge an official POA?


Agreed the bank POA is ONLY for accounts at that bank and the banks can be told to 'stuff it' with respect to their own forms. A POA properly drawn up by a lawyer is perfectly valid for all uses stated in the POA document itself.


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

I've been in the position of having POA for three individuals. I have never had a financial institution in Ontario fail to accept that legal document, and never had a financial institution require a document of their own signed instead. I'd be in that branch manager's office, with the lawyer on speed dial. And I'd tell the manager that. What a load of bull.


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