# GTA Residents - Subway or LRT?



## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

Personally I don't have the information I would like to have to make my decision. I know LRT is cheaper to build now. And it will get more people moving sooner. Also that it may not help traffic in the related areas much. But will be out of operation several days throughout the course of a regular winter due to snow coverage.

Subway is more expensive to build, takes longer to build, but it will reduce traffic volumes, as it would not take up any traffic lanes.

What I would like to know is which is less expensive over the course of 100 years for Toronto residents to fund?


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## Zeeshan Hamid (Feb 28, 2012)

The panel of experts (not random anonymous internet users) found LRTs to be better for Sheppard *even if the funding was not an issue*. 

People throw a blanket statement out ("subways are better than LRTs"). That makes as much senses as saying "highways are better than arterial roads". No sane person would argue we should only build highways. Highways are expensive but necessary, but so are ramps, arterial roads, neighbourhood roads etc. Likewise, subways are expensive but necessary, so are LRTs, buses and other transit formats. 

It's like me saying "my neighbour's BMW M5 is better than my minivan". Truth is that the minivan's better for my family even if I had money for the M5. Just like the panel found that LRT is better for Scarborough due to their population density and development plans even if there was money for subways. 

Either way, Ford had over a year to come up with funding. He doesn't want to raise taxes, province is already giving $8.4 billion and doesn't want to give more, Hudak said even he wouldn't put more cash, Harper said no cash, developers said they wont pay, plaza owners said no parking tax … so where the heck would money for the subway come from? Honestly, I don't think Ford actually wants the subway (if he did, he had over a year to do something about it but he did nothing). I think he just wants to stall, seems like he just doesn't want to spend money on transit, so grandstanding seems like the best option. 

For the record, here's some comparison :-


LRT 
13.6 km
Cost (in 2010 $): $1 billion

Subway 
8 km
Cost (in 2010 dollars): $3.25 billion


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Our future looks like casino's and toll roads


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Personally, I think LRT is the better option.

They would be built with rights-of-way - i.e. above grade dedicated tracks. A good example of this would be the street car segment along The Queensway.

There are PARTS of the new rail route that need to go underground regardless if its LRT or subway because the streets are too narrow.. that's fine.

The service experience will depend on the TTC. They need a large fleet of LRVs and hopefully use automated scheduling so they can guarantee fast, frequent service that isn't overcrowded.

If the LRT footprint was built extensively enough they could also gaurantee few transfers.

From a user perspective, I prefer to be above ground. The air is cleaner, you can see the neighbourhood you're travelling through. You have cell phone reception.

From a construction perspective, it's much quicker to build LRT and has the least disruptions to surrounding businesses.


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

LRT where possible, ei not interferring with traffic, underground where there is no other option.

The winning option will be nothing unfortunately.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Homerhomer said:


> The winning option will be nothing unfortunately.


This. They will stall it forever if they have to. The political mindset right now is to get everything off the books, reduce taxes, and ignore larger regional issues. Future populace be damned.


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

ddkay said:


> This. They will stall it forever if they have to. The political mindset right now is to get everything off the books, reduce taxes, and ignore larger regional issues. .


.... and don't forget the main goal to milk the system for as long and as much as possible with life time pensions, jobs for life (in same cases generations), perks not available to normal working folks........... as long as there are unresolved problems they can continue debating them ;-)


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

The panel of experts, unfortunately was not a panel of experts. It was kind of funny how they got labelled as such.

Regardless of the decision, it is about 20 years late.


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## Zeeshan Hamid (Feb 28, 2012)

Cal said:


> The panel of experts, unfortunately was not a panel of experts. It was kind of funny how they got labelled as such.


Well, they studied this issue with more evidence then online readers with bits and pieces.

Members of the panel included :- 
Eric Miller, Director of the University of Toronto's Cities Centre (he's a civil engineer by training I believe)
David Crombie, chair of the Toronto Lands Corporation, 
Gordon Chong, CEO of Toronto Transit Infrastructure Ltd., 
Mitzie Hunter, CEO of the Greater Toronto Civic Action Alliance, 
Prabha Khosla, chair of the Toronto Women's City Alliance, 
Community Planner Israt Ahmed
Ernie McCullough, the executive director of the Sheppard East Village Business Improvement Area.


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## brocko (Apr 20, 2009)

If Ford was in favor of LRT's his opposition on council and they now appear to be in a majority position would call for more subways. Toronto council is too fragmented and I believe it is time to formally introduce voting by political party with candidates declaring formally and running on the ticket of their chosen party. Independents would decare as such and run on their particular merits.


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

Cal said:


> Regardless of the decision, it is about 20 years late.


Totally agree. The time is so far past for this 'world class' city to address its transit woes. Subways, high speed train to airport, push for high speed train in the Detroit-Quebec corridor. Let's just continue to widen the current 400-series parking lots so that the only roads worth name of expressway are those with tolls so high as to make them too costly for trucks and the average Joe.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Banned for starting a thread that:
a) is of interest only to Hogtowners; and,
b) reminds the rest of us how much provincial subsdidy GTA gets for being the centre of the (Ontario) political universe.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

The TTC has always been underfunded, and things have been pushed back into future years or simply ignored. The TTC recovers all of its operating costs from the fare box, there is little room for system expansion without assistance from muni/prov/fed level. We could have phased out fare collectors and train operators yesteryear, the unions won't let it happen though.


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## donaldmc (Feb 27, 2012)

I think you should go for LRT. I think it is the less expensive than subways.


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## Earth and Money (Apr 5, 2012)

I think the LRT is the way to go. There are pros and cons to both systems, but the traffic is not there to support the subway. Look at the Sheppard subway line, I think I saw a ghost on it the other day.


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