# Looking for Alberta Advice



## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

As my wife and I get closer to retirement, we have started to think about where we want to move to. We were born in raised in the west, but have lived in the Greater Toronto Area for almost three decades. We definitely want to move out of the GTA at retirement and are leaning towards Okotoks, Cochrane or Airdrie in Alberta. Can anyone comment on any of these three cities? Pros & Cons? Thanks in advance.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Airdrie.....closest to the airport. Costco nearby. Good shopping, Lots of choice. Close to Highway 2 and the ring road.

Okotoks....very nice. Far from the airport. Costco in town, reasonably good shopping.

Cochrane...nice BUT.....roads are EXTEMELY congested/ poorly laid out. Poor access. Shopping not great. We looked at it and decided no. Four years later we are glad that we did not. 

Just one person's thoughts. We live in SW Calgary. We often drive down to Okotoks.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

FWIW, I have lived from one coast to the other, having been born and raised in AB. Always thought I'd retire in AB and I did....for 6 years before throwing in the towel and heading to the Okanagan like tens of thousands of other retired Albertans. Can't stand AB weather any more even if most of family are still in AB.

But if one was to retire in one of the 3 places mentioned, I'd pick Okotoks. Easy access to much of the mountains and even better when the ring road is complete through SW Calgary. And access to shopping AND the new Calgary hospital is good.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

We looked at those places too. I think I like Okotoks out of those, esp as one of my kids is there with the grandkids. I think it does get quite windy there though ? I didn't want to deal with the winter in retirement and like to play golf and fish, so picked the Island. It has it's drawbacks though, it's a ways from our kids/grandkids and I did pass on my tee time today because it rained hard.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

Thanks for the feedback. At this point, Okotoks is our leading choice so your comments are good to hear. Can anyone comment on which area of Okotoks is the nicest? We plan to buy a close to new home. (read: everything done - no renovations required)

Our motivation to move back west is driven by the fact we have been away from family for a long time. The one hesitation is the cold weather. AltaRed, what would you consider as the best place(s) in the Okanagan? I have virtually no knowledge of the area.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It depends on what you are specifically looking for. I prefer the Kelowna area, either Kelowna directly, or West Kelowna on the west side of the lake, or Lake Country to the north of Kelowna. Rationale:
1. The largest population closing on 200,000 for Kelowna/Lake Country/West Kelowna/Peachland providing amenities to shopping, good restaurants and a nice (and improving) downtown
2. KRH (Kelowna Regional Hospital) can do most things, recently expanded and will continue to grow. Specialty surgeries often still in Vancouver but cancer treatment and cardiac as good as anywhere
3. Kelowna International airport just on north side of Kelowna. Lots of direct flights to Vancouver and Calgary, mostly Dash-8, plus direct to Seattle, Toronto, and several snowbird spots in the south.
4. Lower elevations near the lake make for less winter snow
5. Easy access to Vancouver 3.5 hours on freeway
6. Overall climate, wineries, boating, hiking, skiing (Big White and Silver Star are significant). Apex at Penticton has steep black diamond. Ski team trains there often
7. Good (or bad) - illegal weed still rules!

Downsides include:
1. Not big enough yet to attract major entertainment and theatre - need to go to Vancouver or Calgary
2. No luxury shopping - need to go to Vancouver or Calgary
3. Still not enough direct connections to Asia, USA or Europe - have to make connections through Calgary or Vancouver. Mostly Dash-8 turboprops except WestJet flies some 737s in/out.
4. Can be pretty hot in July and August, and get inundated by friends and family from Alberta that want to make your place a B&B while vacationing
5. Expensive housing (about the same or slightly higher than Calgary). Average single 2 storey family house about $650k. Anything above average is $800k plus. (Economy is strong - several building cranes on skyline)
6. Low, grey cloud for much of Dec, Jan, Feb due to temperature inversion. Warm moist air coming off the lake (doesn't freeze over) collides with cool air aloft. Not nearly the precipitation of Vancouver or Vancouver Island though (we have enough family in those places to know.......
7. High land transfer taxes and High Probate fees on par with Ontario, probably the two worst provinces in Canada for that

Some folk prefer the quieter environs of Vernon (about 40,000) or Penticton (about 35,000). Both places still suffer the low winter cloud. Have to go right to Osoyoos to escape much of that. Both places are within about 45-60 minutes of Kelowna on mostly good highway so people do travel between quite a bit. Vernon has a decent hospital but limited. Penticton is getting a new one I believe, but again would be limited. Kelowna is the centroid for the Southern Interior.

I'd advise anyone who is considering the area to first spend some significant time here, both summer and winter, to determine if they like it. Indeed, any time anyone goes to a relatively unknown place to live, they should rent for a year or so first. There are anecdotal stories of people, especially from east of the Rockies, who come to the Okanagan Valley for a few years and leave for various reasons, e.g. distance to family, winter grey cloud, etc. Need to know your priorities.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

If you like the mountains Cochrane is closer to the ski hills,mountains,4x4,hunting. We looked at Cochrane before choosing Canmore to move to but:

If you like city congestion any of your 3 picks are good...all windy...Okotoks & Airdrie great shopping ...Airdrie wins with Costco & Cross Iron Mills. Traffic horrible to all 3 forever...theres no cure.Cochrane wins as the most horrible. Okotoks & Airdrie are cookie cutter communities...Cochrane has a bit of character still. 

I think Cochrane would be my choice over the other 2.

Just my opinion of living/working in the area for 30 years.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> I'd advise anyone who is considering the area to first spend some significant time here, both summer and winter, to determine if they like it. Indeed, any time anyone goes to a relatively unknown place to live, they should rent for a year or so first. There are anecdotal stories of people, especially from east of the Rockies, who come to the Okanagan Valley for a few years and leave for various reasons, e.g. distance to family, winter grey cloud, etc. Need to know your priorities.


^^ Best advice before relocation, spend some time there and see if you really like it. 

I'm considering Kelowna as a retirement location, spent a fair bit of time there as I have friends that live there. The winter cloud cover (no sun) does take some getting used to but overall I found it to be a nice place. Smaller homes seemed to be priced reasonably last I checked a few years back.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Very good advice to rent.

One other thing is proximity to healthcare services. We really did not think about this until 2019. My spouse underwent neurosurgery plus lots of eye issues. Many, many trips to specialists, hospital visits to two different hospital for specialty care. It can happen so suddenly. One minute you can be in perfect health, the next your calendar is filled with medical/specialist appts.

We do not mind Alberta winters. We typically leave mid/late January and return late March. 

We spent lots of time in Montreal and Toronto. Plus 20 years in Vancouver. We have been in Calgary for 20 years and have retired here. I could never imagine moving back to Ontario. I did enough business trips there to last a lifetime!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It has been, and is, easy to get way off track from the original 'focused' question. Think I started that off-tangent discussion....my bad.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Supposed to hit -45 C next wewk, may want to think about that...the Yukon is beautiful too, but winters make it no question


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

Off track typically evokes some very good conversation. Moving is a significant undertaking so the more information the better and some great points have been brought up. The weather is definitely the one drawback of Alberta. Of course there is the option to get away somewhere warmer for a couple months during the winter, but that to comes with its own set of issues. (pet, health insurance, house care while gone, etc)

Longer term criteria such as access to healthcare, activities for the more mature age group , availability of bare land condo type communities for when it comes time to further downsize, etc. are all on our checklist. We want to figure all of this out over the next few years so that we are ready to get on with it as soon as we retire. I had not considered renting, but it certainly has merit if we would want to move to somewhere we are unfamiliar with, such as the Okanagan. The thought of moving twice is not enticing. Moving is another challenge on to it's own. I have no idea what to budget for the move (4 bedroom home....not a hoarder, but I don like having a nice selection of gear for my hobbies). On the real estate front, our budget for a new home will be in the 900k to 1m range with the proceeds from our current home covering that. 

Moving will be a huge life event and decision so I certainly appreciate the information and comments.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

_Moving will be a huge life event and decision so I certainly appreciate the information and comments._

When we retired and decided to move back home to the larger city where we grew up, we thought we would sell our home and buy another.

We found a home we wanted to buy but the deal on our home sale fell through at the last minute, so we decided to rent for awhile.

Long story short.....after moving the first time (which was a big move) we lost the urge to move again. We became less interested in moving likely twice more in the future.

All those moves taking place as we were getting older.......no thanks. We liked our location and unit and decided to stay renting. We just upgraded the unit to our liking.

900K invested in the financial markets rather than a home would provide a lot of money towards the rental cost.

Just saying...you might want to consider if buying another home in retirement is something you want to do, given how many more times you may have to move as you get older.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

While wanting to be closer to family makes some sense, it is also important to consider what you will do with your time when NOT with family, which is likely to be the majority of your time. If for example you hope to do a lot of travelling after retiring, Alberta may not be your best choice of location to travel from. What your interests are and will be in retirement should be a big factor in your decision in my opinion.

For example, we lived in the Okanagan for 3 years or so and found it very limited in terms of day tripping. When you have driven the 10 back roads ten times each and visited 10 wineries 10 times each, that gets real stale. For further travel ie. Europe, you have to first get to Vancouver or Calgary for an overseas flight. If you are happy to winter at an RV park in Yuma, Arizona for the winter (my idea of a version of hell), you can drive down there in a couple of days but wintering even in Florida is a bigger deal. In other words, not all winter destinations are created equal and you may want to consider that if 'snowbirding' is part of your retirement plans at all.

We ended up moving from the Okanagan to Ontario for several reasons. One, there is far more of everything within easy reach. Two, more distant travel is easier and cheaper. We visit Europe every year, sometimes more than once. Also interesting in terms of weather is that Ontario has a 'banana belt'. That is defined as a geographic region with a microclimate that is warmer than the overall average of a region. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_belt

Just as the south Okanagan is such a region in BC, so is the Windsor-Chatham area along Lake Erie in Ontario. I have not had to clear our driveway of snow yet this winter. The most we have had so far is about 1.5 inches and that was gone the next day. Granted there has been low snowfall so far this year but in the 10 years we have now been here, I have never had to get the snow blower out more than maybe 3 times in a winter. I could have probably just driven out the driveway even then except for where the snow drifts higher just in front of our garage itself. So while I see people tobogganing in the snow in Toronto, it ain't happening where we are. Usually our temperature is a few degrees higher than Toronto and our snowfall is less. Not a huge difference but enough to make a difference.

Did you know that Point Pelee, at a Latitude of 41 degrees is in line with Istanbul, Rome, Barcelona and northern California? I always like telling Americans that where I live in Canada is SOUTH of 27 US states! http://rmcguirephoto.com/wordpress/2009/07/25/journey-to-canadas-banana-belt/

A word on moving twice. It may happen no matter what you decide to do. For example, we bought our condo in the Okanagan with the idea of being able to 'lock up and go' when travelling and with the idea of not having to move from a detached home when we were no longer able to do the necessary maintenance etc. that a condo frees you from. Sounds good if you say it fast enough, right up until you discover the downsides of condo living vs. your own detached property. I think a lot of retirees have the same idea of 'downsizing' to a condo for similar reasons, only to find they don't like living in a condo. Like most things there are pros AND cons involved and if you have never lived in 'shared' housing, you may find that UNTIL you are forced to do so, it ain't for you. We will be staying in our detached home until we are just not physically able to do so any longer. In our books, condo living 'sucks'.

So my point is that obviously there are a lot of factors to look at when considering where you want to live in retirement and they should all be weighed based on your own priorities. You couldn't pay me to live in southern Alberta (I did spent some years living in Calgary years ago) but then I don't have any family there. If I did have family there it would be a factor but quite frankly, how the rest of my time was going to be spent would be of more importance overall. 

The good news is that after you retire, you can basically live anywhere you chose to as you are no longer tied to 'work' making the decision for you.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Gator13 said:


> Off track typically evokes some very good conversation. Moving is a significant undertaking so the more information the better and some great points have been brought up. The weather is definitely the one drawback of Alberta. Of course there is the option to get away somewhere warmer for a couple months during the winter, but that to comes with its own set of issues. (pet, health insurance, house care while gone, etc)
> 
> Longer term criteria such as access to healthcare, activities for the more mature age group , availability of bare land condo type communities for when it comes time to further downsize, etc. are all on our checklist. We want to figure all of this out over the next few years so that we are ready to get on with it as soon as we retire. I had not considered renting, but it certainly has merit if we would want to move to somewhere we are unfamiliar with, such as the Okanagan. The thought of moving twice is not enticing. Moving is another challenge on to it's own. I have no idea what to budget for the move (4 bedroom home....not a hoarder, but I don like having a nice selection of gear for my hobbies). On the real estate front, our budget for a new home will be in the 900k to 1m range with the proceeds from our current home covering that.
> 
> Moving will be a huge life event and decision so I certainly appreciate the information and comments.


I moved approximately every 2-4 years during my career and it was a hassle for sure, but mostly a 2 month event by being very ruthless in de-cluttering and moving the minimum. Have someone come in like ReStore or Salvation Army with a truck and take a good 50% of what you have. One will often want a considerable proportion of new furniture and accessories in the new place to fit the particular personality of the new place. 

Spouse and I took a huge risk when we left Calgary because we were a second relationship couple taking up house together. We took a big risk not renting for the first 1-2 years because had we not liked it, or our relationship failed, the RE fees and land transfer taxes would have been a very expensive lesson. I felt we skated through that one with considerable good luck. Moving twice is a hassle but it is relatively cheap insurance against an RE purchase gone bad. Unfortunately, we have a pretty big single family house (walk out ranch with master on main floor) so we will be downsizing at least one more time, likely into a strata (condo) of some sort, within the next 5 years. I would like a bare land condo myself BUT it will have to be a bungalow. There is no way old people can negotiate stairs for long so a typical townhouse style is out. There are many strata developments (communities) of detached 2-3 bedroom bungalows in the Kelowna area. They are highly popular with the geritol crowd because they are one floor, detached, have a garage and often have some kind of community clubhouse.

Moving costs are relatively minor when it comes to the full cost of selling and buying real estate. A cross-country move might be $20k depending on the amount of goods. Rely on a brand name mover like AMJ Campbell who know how to pack, load and unload. You don't need any additional stress packing and moving. I think it only cost us about $10-12k for the movers to pack and load and transport our stuff from Calgary. I have long ago dumped the documents so cannot remember very well. That is pretty inexpensive all things considered. My sister-in-law moved from Montreal to Vancouver 3 years ago and it was about $5k but she was only moving a 2 bedroom apartment worth of stuff. Even though she also ruthlessly de-cluttered, she found that some of her stuff just didn't fit well in her new 2 bedroom place. Folks who have not moved often don't realize how much they detest most of their crap in their new place. Error on the side of ruthlessness rather than paying to move shite one will end up getting rid of anyway.

I'd suggest you need to be in a place more than 50k population to have any variety in acceptable real estate that you would be happy with. Certainly the Central Okanagan (essentially the greater Kelowna area of 200,000) has a ton of options. Just by chance. the December RE stats are out for 3 of the local districts and this link will give you an idea of activity and choice https://www.omreb.com/files/5e150fba17537.pdf About 240 transactions for the Central Okanagan. I don't know what the volume is for places like Okotoks or Cochrane or Airdrie but I suspect it will take longer to find the specific type of place you really want to settle into.

Lastly, access to health care is a big deal. As we all age, the last thing we need is to be stuck more than 10-15 minutes away from paramedics and not more than 30 minutes or so away from a hospital. We are now in our early '70s and appreciate the convenience of proximity. I was the shuttle for DIL in her cancer treatment locally this past year and it would have been a real struggle to be traveling considerable distances for chemo, and for all the appointments. She will need reconstructive surgery this year as well, and has a 2 year old at home that needs to be shuttled to/from day care. Spouse will need a hip replacement this year and it will be nice to only be 20 minutes from the hospital. All I can say is, fools are those who are remote from health care.


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## P_I (Dec 2, 2011)

Eder said:


> If you like the mountains Cochrane is closer to the ski hills,mountains,4x4,hunting. We looked at Cochrane before choosing Canmore to move to but:
> 
> If you like city congestion any of your 3 picks are good...all windy...Okotoks & Airdrie great shopping ...Airdrie wins with Costco & Cross Iron Mills. Traffic horrible to all 3 forever...theres no cure.Cochrane wins as the most horrible.


Having done the GTA to Calgary area move over a decade ago, compared the GTA traffic gridlock, Calgary traffic isn't anywhere near horrible by comparison.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We sold our large Calgary home in late 2012. Just before the downturn as luck would have it. After traveling for seven months and renting furnished for another 4 we moved into a rental condo overlooking a golf course. Low rise building. We thought this was want we wanted. Fortunately we rented because the real estate market was going south. After three years we realized that we did not want a condo and were happy that we had rented. The location was great. Alas the unit we were in had apporx. $45K of condo assessments while we renting. We took a year to shop and then buy what we wanted. We were far, far better off paying rent and investing our equity during that period.

We did our own move in a way. . We downsized to an 8X8X16 contrainer. Delivered to our driveway one week prior to moving day. We used our garage as staging area for boxes etc prior to it's arrival. We took our time filled it tight to brim and it was stored in a heated, indoor warehouse. We were not sure whether we would stay in Calgary. When we decided to stay we had it delivered to the condo and then hired a firm to move the contents into our condo. 

I think that the Calgary housing market will remain stable for the next few years. Our advice would be to find a rental, live and travel in the area for year or so and then start shopping. One big learn for us after 40 years of home ownership.....renting can be wonderful and it can be financially rewarding. 

One note on Cochrane.....lots of building, actually overbuilding at the moment. The road infrastructure IMHO is woefully inadequate to handle the growth. Significant road and rail overpass issues that even if adressed will take several years of construction mess to fix.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Meant to add the following for the OP.....

I recognize from the original post that being in proximity to family is the big motivator for the move, so that will be the 'primary' factor for where you locate. Proximity is a series of cascading cases and that needs to be thought through first. Examples:

1. Close enough for day-to-day, or at least week-to-week interaction. That means within a 30-45 minute drive most of the time, an hour on the outside for those interactions with adult children and grandchildren. Assuming one of Okotoks, Conchrane or Airdrie are examples of close enough, that likely means (to me) week-to-week or month-to-month physical interaction at most. It doesn't mean daily interaction such as caring for pre-school grandchildren.

2. Close enough to be affordable for 2-4 times a year physical interaction. For us, that is either an 6-8 hr drive Calgary-Kelowna or 3.5 hour drive, Kelowna-Vancouver, or a 40 minute plane ride. In our case, our AB based sons and daughters will tolerate a 1-2 times a year drive to stay with us, or can afford the plane tickets to see us. We, of course, are at liberty to do that more often. Spouse's dau and husband and 2 children 11-14 were here for a week over the Christmas season. Spouse and her sister in Vancouver see each other perhaps 4 times a year.... 3.5 hour drive or short plane hop is not an issue.

Anything outside those parameters probably means NOT in proximity to family for most families, i.e. 1 hour by plane, or 6-8 hours by car. Spouse in particular does miss not seeing her AB based grandchildren enough. She feels they are growing up without knowing her very well and that is probably true. We are considerably more intimately involved with her son and family who live locally to us in West Kelowna. We are engaged in the growing up of her granddaughter, soon to be 2 yrs old.

Only you can decide what engagement and proximity is important to you.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

Another very important consideration for us is that we do not have kids. We recognize that at some point we can only hope that a niece or nephew is good enough to help us when we're older. The importance of having someone to look after your best interests and perhaps champion a healthcare issue can't be under estimated. Of course, we hope/plan to reward whoever that person is. Moving west would move us closer to them. And until them, moving west will also allow us to help family members that are older than us. If all goes as planned I will be late 50's and my wife early/mid 50's when we retire so we should have a few good years left in us.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Then it pays to be within an hour or so of such individuals. It would be unrealistic for us to advocate for folks in Calgary from here, and vice versa. Even Vancouver could be a stretch.

If spouse's son and family did not live locally, and they could move back to Vancouver area someday, we might be left high and dry in the Kelowna area, and have to consider a re-location IF we don't have good friends locally to do that on our behalf.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

If I was retiring, Airdrie certainly wouldn't be on my list of those three. It doesn't have much going for it aside from it's cheaper than Calgary. We usually stop in for gas and snacks on the way to/from the mountains. It's just Red Deer without the d-bags.

The other two are nice. The wind would get to me, we don't get a lot up here. The winters aren't bad cold/weather wise. It's the length of them that becomes an issue. There's no place in Canada that is as sunny as the AB/SK during the winter. Does wonders for your mental health to be away from depressing, wet grey-ness.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

I have to note that I am certainly glad I came across this forum. A fantastic place for discussions and insight.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

nobleea said:


> If I was retiring, Airdrie certainly wouldn't be on my list of those three. It doesn't have much going for it aside from it's cheaper than Calgary. We usually stop in for gas and snacks on the way to/from the mountains. It's just Red Deer without the d-bags.


Spouse has one dau and her family in Red Deer. You are being kind with the description of d-bag. She is only there because her husband refuses to consider leaving his 'hometown'. Sad......


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Gator13 said:


> Another very important consideration for us is that we do not have kids. We recognize that at some point we can only hope that a niece or nephew is good enough to help us when we're older. The importance of having someone to look after your best interests and perhaps champion a healthcare issue can't be under estimated. Of course, we hope/plan to reward whoever that person is. Moving west would move us closer to them. And until them, moving west will also allow us to help family members that are older than us. If all goes as planned I will be late 50's and my wife early/mid 50's when we retire so we should have a few good years left in us.


Well having extended family members is not the same as immediate family nearby. Your earlier comment re the move being primarily motivated by proximity to family was a bit misleading in that regard I would say. Your anticipated age at retirement could also have affected responses if you had mentioned that earlier. If you will both be in your 50s when you retire, I would consider worrying about who will help take care of your affairs when you get older, an issue that should be dealt with when you get to be 'older', not something that should be a factor in your thinking now at all unless you already have major medical issues.

Take a step back here. Does no one else see something wrong with this picture? A couple in their 50s retire with presumably enough income to do so and enough capital to contemplate spending up to $1mil on a home. They have the whole world to look at and their answer is to retire to southern Alberta? I have no issue with someone wanting to continue to live in Canada in their retirement, it is after all a great country to live in but southern Alberta as a first choice? Really? And based on 'being near to family' when it now sounds like that just means some neices or nephews who they aren't really likely to spend much of their retirement time with, just want them around for help if needed?

It sounds to me Gator13 as if you are making yourself 'old' far before the time for that arrives. What do you think you will want to do with your time between the ages of say 59 and 69 if your health continues to be good? That is what I would suggest you should be planning for. You sound like you are planning for when you are 79. Make decisions based on what you want to do NOW, not 20 years from now. The whole world will have changed 20 years from now. 

I'll ask again, what do you see yourself doing with your days after you retire? Golfing 3 times a week? Taking several month long vacations and travelling each year, or just sitting waiting till you need a nephew to help you with something? That is what you should be looking at before deciding where would it be best to live for what you want to do.

Retirement is not an 'end game'. It is not about sitting and waiting to die. I see so many people who seem to think it is a 'last' step. It is just another step, like any previous steps you have made in life. Early retirement especially is not likely to be a last step at all. I retired early and now 30 years later, I have lived in half a dozen different countries. Even now at 74 next month, I can't say for sure this is my last move before I die. I don't expect to move again, we are happy where we are but I have learned never to say, 'never'. 

'Mann tracht, un Gott lacht'. https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/our-emotional-footprint/201602/man-plans-and-god-laughs People seem to have this idea that when they retire they have to come up with the RIGHT plan that will see them through to the 'end'. That to me is a major mistake. Plan for today and maybe you can get that right. This idea that, 'I have to get this right forever' is nonsense.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The OP is doing what the OP wants to do. I don't see the need to be critical of choices of where to live or how to live retirement.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> The OP is doing what the OP wants to do. I don't see the need to be critical of choices of where to live or how to live retirement.


I am not being critical of the OP AltaRed, I am questioning the OP's thinking. Or is it just not 'pc' to question anyone about anything any more? The OP asked for comments on their retirement plans, I'm commenting.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> I am not being critical of the OP AltaRed, I am questioning the OP's thinking. Or is it just not 'pc' to question anyone about anything any more? The OP asked for comments on their retirement plans, I'm commenting.


All the OP asked for was opinions on 3 Alberta locations, not retirement plans in the broad sense. He didn't ask about how he should conduct retirement or arguments about location, especially about Ontario, Point Pelee, etc. that you seem so enamored about. 

FWIW, I am sometimes guilty about going off-tangent, and being opinionated, but jumping jeepers... I think I'd nominate you for the gold metal.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

Longtimeago, it’s a public forum and all comments are welcome, even when they’re wrong. Your questioning of being “pc” didn’t cross my mind. I’ll comment on a few of your points. As we don’t have and kids of our own, I can’t comment on whether having extended family members is not the same as immediate family nearby, I’ll have to take your word for it. We have what we have. Whether a niece or nephew might help us out if and when we need assistance, well, that will be up to them. I guess that will be based on what they think of us and if they have a close relationship with us or not. Until that day, it would be nice to spend more time with family and friends in the west then we have been able to while living in Ontario. (We do know that we do not want to stay in the GTA.) Everyone is aware how house prices have climbed and ours has been no exception. We will simply use the proceeds to buy our next one. A house is important to us. We enjoy hosting dinners, bbq’s, card nights, etc. It’s a place to gather.

I have no idea how you concluded I am making myself old. We are planning for retirement so we can hit the road running and not waste a couple years sorting things out. We typically go to Europe twice a year and don’t foresee that changing. We’ll just be able to stay a little longer. We’re not big on going back to the same place twice so a rv park for the winter isn’t on the radar. Although I could certainly get used to a week or two of golfing in Palm Springs or the Phoenix area. A lot of Canada left to explore as well. I enjoy fishing, upland and waterfowl hunting and the outdoors in general. Alberta is a pretty good spot for the hobbies I enjoy. Calgary would be close by for festivals, city life, etc. I can golf, play hockey, volunteer, maybe work part-time, etc anywhere I live. I have a lot of hobbies and will have no problem keeping busy. If we stayed in Ontario, the front runner is London. You commented on Point Pelee. I go to Pelee Island every fall for a pheasant hunt and know the area a bit, but admit tingly not overly well. We had it on the list due to the weather, but it’s not for us. It’s too quiet and the nearest city is Windsor which we don’t care for. 

It sounds like you are enjoying your retirement and have been able to live it on your own terms. That is great to hear, and I can only hope for the same. Cheers

Add:

I have never retired before so I am sure I will screw a few things up


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Gator13 said:


> Longtimeago said:
> 
> 
> > Well having extended family members is not the same as immediate family nearby ...
> ...


Interesting ... I have both. There's a higher percent of immediate family I might consider moving closer to but there's also immediate family I *want* to be away from, just as there's more distant relations I'd want to be closer to.

It's not like there's any law of nature that means immediate family is more willing to help out and is more stable.


Cheers


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

What I was trying to say in terms of making yourself old before your time Gator13 was that you seemed to be giving priority in your decision making to things that were quite likely to still be 20 years or so away from when you retire. Some years ago I heard someone explain going into retirement quite simply. That explanation was, 'you can't see there from here.' It is simply not possible to actually know what being retired will be like, until you are retired. I think if you asked those here who have retired, whether it has been as they expected, most if not all would tell you that it has differed considerably from what they had anticipated. It's like moving to a new job, in an entirely new field with which you have no experience and in a new town, all at the same time. 

In my opinion, the best anyone can do to 'hit the road running' is to prepare to do what they currently want to do with their time and ignore what they think they may want 20 years down the road. As for not 'wasting a couple of years sorting things out', if you plan for NOW, there is nothing to waste time on or to have to sort out. The implication of 'wasting time sorting things out' is that you have to find the RIGHT answer for the longer term. That is what I consider to be the wrong approach, you only have to find the right answer for the immediate future, you can't see far enough down the road to try and determine what will be right 5, 10, 15 years later. The only thing you can be sure of in that regard is that 'nothing is as constant as change' and it will change for you as it does for everyone else.

If southern Alberta is your choice as the best area to live in when you FIRST retire, then that's fine, no problem. But if you chose it based on where you THINK will be best 20 years from then, then it is not what I would consider in your best interest. Go live where you want to live now and can do what you want to do with your time. Let later take care of later.

As I wrote, retirement is not an end game, it is simply a new chapter in life, not the LAST chapter. Chances are that you will find you have several more chapters after that FIRST retirement chapter.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

It's true there will be be unknowns as well as parts that weren't anticipated so the idea that the retirement plans will cover the whole picture is bogus.

At the same time, of those retired that I know - they kept doing what they enjoyed so some things will be known and can be planned for, even if the future details vary somewhat.



Cheers


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eclectic12 said:


> Interesting ... I have both. There's a higher percent of immediate family I might consider moving closer to but there's also immediate family I *want* to be away from, just as there's more distant relations I'd want to be closer to.
> 
> It's not like there's any law of nature that means immediate family is more willing to help out and is more stable.
> 
> ...


I agree with that somewhat Eclectic12. I think that in general, having expectations of immediate family members is more likely to be a reasonable assumption than for more extended family members. For example, I think I can have a reasonable expectation of help from a son than I can from a nephew who lives a couple of thousand miles away, even if I move closer to that nephew and farther from my son. 

No doubt there are people who would consider a nephew more reliable than their own waste of space son but in the majority of cases I think it is fair to say expecting an immediate family member would help you is more likely to happen than a more extended family member.

I also think that an earlier comment by AltaRed re actual distance and how reasonable it would be to expect help is valid. AltaRed's suggestion that expecting someone more than an hour away would be able to help you would be 'unrealistic', is probably pretty true.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

> .......you seemed to be giving priority in your decision making to things that were quite likely to still be 20 years or so away.


It is an important consideration. One of many.



> if you plan for NOW, there is nothing to waste time on or to have to sort out. The implication of 'wasting time sorting things out' is that you have to find the RIGHT answer for the longer term.


We are planning for where we want to start our retirement. Because we know we want out of the GTA, we don't want to wait until retirement to start deciding where we want to go. It will cost us 100k and a lot of effort to move so we want to be reasonably confident with our choice. It's also pretty darn exciting to be planning for retirement. (and our planning and approach has served us pretty well over the years)



> If southern Alberta is your choice as the best area to live in when you FIRST retire, then that's fine, no problem.


The first move is all we're thinking about. We'll worry about the second one if and when it comes about.



> At the same time, of those retired that I know - they kept doing what they enjoyed so some things will be known and can be planned for, even if the future details vary somewhat.


Well said.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Gator13 said:


> Alberta is a pretty good spot for the hobbies I enjoy. Calgary would be close by for festivals, city life, etc. I can golf, play hockey, volunteer, maybe work part-time, etc anywhere I live. I have a lot of hobbies and will have no problem keeping busy. If we stayed in Ontario, the front runner is London. You commented on Point Pelee. I go to Pelee Island every fall for a pheasant hunt and know the area a bit, but admit tingly not overly well.


You the type of people that make Alberta better than anywhere else...please move here....btw

https://calgaryherald.com/news/loca...asant-festival-about-more-than-blasting-birds


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> I agree with that somewhat Eclectic12. I think that in general, having expectations of immediate family members is more likely to be a reasonable assumption than for more extended family members ...


Whereas I am confident my sister-in-law and her daughter are far more likely to help than my brother or his wife would be. 


Cheers


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

Eder said:


> You the type of people that make Alberta better than anywhere else...please move here....btw
> 
> https://calgaryherald.com/news/loca...asant-festival-about-more-than-blasting-birds


Myself and a couple friends like to come out to southern Alberta for a week of upland hunting in early October most years. We are already planning our trip for this fall. We ask a lot of the same landowners for permission year after year and I have to say that they are beyond hospitable. To the point where we're invited in for a coffee or beverage. Just good people.


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

I have seen many people moved to East for retirement whereas you are planning to move in cold place. The winter usually starts from Sep to Mar/Apr here in AB. 

I wish I could live in a warmer place.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

scorpion_ca said:


> I wish I could live in a warmer place.


Lots of ex-pat places to go if one is retired, especially if one just wants to be a snowbird and escape winter. The discussion here is typical of the ones already had multiple times over. Everyone has their personal bias and/or reasons. Let it be and just move on to another subject?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Gator13 said:


> It is an important consideration. One of many.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Try for consistency in your statements Gator13, otherwise it's confusing to a reader.

'It is an _important_ consideration' (something 20 years away) and 'the first move is _all_ we're thinking about' are not in my view consistent. If ALL you are thinking about is your first move, something likely to be 20 years away (help from a relative) is NOT part of that at all.

No one is suggesting waiting till you are ready to retire, to start thinking about where you want to go. All that is being suggested is that you decide based on your likely interests when you do retire, not your interests 20 years after that.

I also find myself wondering although it is a side issue, why you think it will cost you $100k to make a move. That seems awful high to me. Where do you see it costing that? Moving costs? Buying/selling real estate costs? Moving costs are real, real estate costs are 'on paper' costs only unless you 'buy up'.

Cross Canada moving costs will not eat up any large percentage of $100k. https://www.mymovingreviews.com/move/cost-of-moving-across-canada/


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

scorpion_ca said:


> I have seen many people moved to East for retirement whereas you are planning to move in cold place. The winter usually starts from Sep to Mar/Apr here in AB.
> 
> I wish I could live in a warmer place.


When I lived in Calgary everyone used to joke about it being potentially possible even though not common, to see snow in every month of the year there. http://blog.buzzbishop.com/calgary/in-calgary-it-snows-all-year/

I don't know if people who have never lived there realize that. Having it be 4C and snowing in August is pretty hard to picture as a choice retirement destination.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/summer-snow-august-flurry-hits-calgary-blankets-rockies-1.2528706

Moving almost anywhere else would be a warmer place scorpion_ca.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Moving can be expensive depending on whether you are incurring real estate fees and legal fees.

Even though we had lived in Calgary for 12 years we decided not to buy immediately after downsizing. 

We were not certain what type of accommodation we wanted. Or what area. We did not want to buy something and then incur the selling expenses should we want something different. Once in the city, the cost of a move if you are renting is minimal compared to the costs involved in selling a home should you decide on a different location in the city or outskirts. This turned out to be the right decision for us. It might not be for someone else.

We spend 4-6 months a year outside Alberta. We love the summers. Our routine so for is 7/8 weeks in the fall, 8/10 weeks in the winter and a few others to the west coast, Ontario cottage country, or south on some last minute travel offers. We wanted to buy something with our lifestyle in mind.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

LTA should stop being derogatory to any place he views as not his bias of ideal but that is his modus operandi. Think we all know that by now.

$100k budget is too much with respect to moving costs but it depends on the definition and does not hurt to put that in the plan. There will be the RE legal and commission costs to sell in ON, but minimal cost to buy in AB (no land transfer taxes to speak of - yet). Moving costs no more than $20k and could be quite a bit lower with severe de-cluttering. 

However, add in vehicle transport costs and then maybe another an allowance of $30k in the new place for home furnishings and decorating and it may not be hard to get to $100k. We spent a good $50k in our place in the first year for things like draperies and new furniture, never mind renos and upgrades that came later.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

> Try for consistency in your statements Gator13, otherwise it's confusing to a reader.


Come on now longtimeago, it's not that tough to follow. LOL. 

The first move is all we're thinking about because who knows if they'll be a second. As I said earlier, I enjoy fishing, upland and waterfowl hunting and the outdoors in general. Alberta is a pretty good spot for the hobbies I enjoy. Calgary would be close by for festivals, city life, etc. I can golf, play hockey, volunteer, maybe work part-time, etc anywhere I live.



> I also find myself wondering although it is a side issue, why you think it will cost you $100k to make a move. That seems awful high to me. Where do you see it costing that? Moving costs? Buying/selling real estate costs? Moving costs are real, real estate costs are 'on paper' costs only unless you 'buy up'.


If I sell a house for 1m and I buy a house for 1m I will be out of pocket 50k and change for real estate fees, legal, etc. Add in 20k for moving, a few flights/hotels/rental cars for house hunting, potential bridge financing for 1m for a few months, maybe a fresh coat of paint on the new house, etc. It doesn't take long to be at 100k. On top of this will be another 50k to 70k for furniture/window covering/ lighting/landscaping/etc. If it costs us less, that's just a bonus.

It's obvious don't like Alberta. How long did you live there?

Why so argumentative longtimeago? Your negativity is exhausting. Cheer up


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

ian said:


> Moving can be expensive depending on whether you are incurring real estate fees and legal fees.
> 
> Even though we had lived in Calgary for 12 years we decided not to buy immediately after downsizing.
> 
> ...


Did you stay in Calgary when you downsized or move to a smaller city outside? How long did you rent before buying or did you continue to rent? You mentioned earlier you made a lot of business trips to Ontario and don't miss it. The traffic gets worse every year. I am now spending $700+ per month on the 407 toll highway which is insane. BTW, you have an awesome travel routine.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

The Bow River is a world class trout stream if you like fly fishing...a days float trip yielding 20 trout over 18"/boat is pretty standard...Okatoks is closest to this action as well as close to the Highwood River...more great fishing but more challenging.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Gator......We sold our home in Canyon Meadows, the SW. We came back after 7 months of travel. We rented a furnished apartment in the Belltline area for three months. We enjoyed the area very much. Then we decided to rent a condo overlooking Shaganappi golf course. Six month lease on a handshake. Had our container delivered and goods unloaded. Stayed in that rental for four years. Them moved back to the SW-Evergreen area about 100m from Fish Creek Park which we walk in often.

Renting was the best decision we could have made-financially and otherwise. Seven months of travel changed our thoughts about what we wanted next. Living in a low rise condo also helped us decide what we really wanted and what we did not want. Renting gave us the luxury of really taking our time to shop and not feel any time pressure to buy something that we were not fairly certain about. Looking back, I believe the key to renting was finding a rental that we liked and did we did not feel in a hurry to vacate.

Business travel took me from Toronto to Vancouver and points in between. It was always good to leave Toronto and the 'puzzle palace' and come home whether it be Vancouver or Calgary. We lived in downtown Toronto for four years. Great city but not thanks,not for us. Same for the Peterborough area where many of my in-laws are. Living in Vancouver for 20 years was wonderful but now the traffic and the rain gets to us. We like blue sky, the foothills, and of course the mountains. We have thought about moving east....usually after 10 seconds we both reject the notion! We were in Toronto traffic in Sept. We try to time our arrival so that we hit the 10-3 or pst 8PM window on the 401.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Gator13 said:


> Come on now longtimeago, it's not that tough to follow. LOL.
> 
> The first move is all we're thinking about because who knows if they'll be a second. As I said earlier, I enjoy fishing, upland and waterfowl hunting and the outdoors in general. Alberta is a pretty good spot for the hobbies I enjoy. Calgary would be close by for festivals, city life, etc. I can golf, play hockey, volunteer, maybe work part-time, etc anywhere I live.
> 
> ...


I have nothing against Calgary, I actually enjoyed my 3 years living there but it is not where I would choose to retire to. As I've already said, if it suits your initial retirement needs that's fine.

If you sell a $1mil house in the GTA, you will have to 'buy up' to spend $1mil in Southern Alberta. I look at moving in terms of like for like or more usually in retirement, downsizing. So you sell for $1mil and buy the equivalent house in Southern Alberta for $500k. Or you downsize to a smaller house and pay even less than half.

My brother sold a 1 bedroom condo at Harbourfront and moved to a small town here in Ontario where he bought a nice little 2 bedroom detached rancher on a typical town lot. He could have bought 3 for the price he sold the condo for. 

While not exact, all you need to do is look at an Okotoks average vs. a GTA average to see that.
https://www.zolo.ca/okotoks-real-estate/trends https://www.zolo.ca/toronto-real-estate/trends

Why would you assume you will sell for $1mil and buy for $1mil? Just because you have it to spend?

And why do you think you will be 'out of pocket $50k, 20k, 70k'? What did you pay for the house you are now in? Let's say it was $500k, the difference between that and the cheque you get when you sell goes INTO your pocket. The $50k in fees etc. simply means instead of putting $500k into your pocket you put $450k into your pocket. You're not 'out' anything. What changed is that when it came time to realize the real profit, it was $450k and not the 'on paper' profit of $500k which was NEVER going to go into your pocket. The ONLY way you could ever have got the full $1mil is if you sold person to person and paid no agent or lawyer. 

The $20k in moving costs does come out of your pocket. The $70k in renos/furniture also comes out of your pocket but it would equally come out of your pocket if you decided to update your current house in the same way. I don't consider it a legitimate cost of moving therefore. It could apply whether you moved or stayed where you are. I find it interesting that when we look at interior photos of houses for sale, we look at almost every one and say, 'well the kitchen will need to be renovated as well as the bathroom and that horrid shed in the backyard will have to go and something nicer found.' The thing is, people looking at YOUR house for sale are all saying the exact same thing about it!

Questioning is not arguing. It is usually about looking at something from a different perspective.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> Why would you assume you will sell for $1mil and buy for $1mil? Just because you have it to spend?


Maybe because he wants to move up in quality, size, etc. Not really our business to question as to why. 

My spouse and I sold our individual places in Calgary some years ago and put almost all the combined money towards a bigger place with a lake view and a pool in the Okanagan. Why? Because we wanted too. I suspect we might take all the money from this place someday and put it into a luxury condo of half the square footage in a nice central area of Kelowna someday as well. Why? Because we may want too if that is our choice at the time.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

> My spouse and I sold our individual places in Calgary some years ago and put almost all the combined money towards a bigger place with a lake view and a pool in the Okanagan. Why? Because we wanted too. I suspect we might take all the money from this place someday and put it into a luxury condo of half the square footage in a nice central area of Kelowna someday as well. Why? Because we may want too if that is our choice at the time.


Well said. Not only do you get to enjoy the home you want, but being your principal residence, any increase in value is tax free when sold.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Gator...working part time can be beneficial at the start of your retirement.. You and/or your spouse will be able to deduct all your moving expenses, real estate, legal, etc against income earned at the new location. It is a way to get back a percentage of those moving costs from CRA!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Gator13 said:


> Well said. Not only do you get to enjoy the home you want, but being your principal residence, any increase in value is tax free when sold.


Any increase in value is of no real importance. We don't own what we own for the tax free investment gain. Never have, never will. We have what we have for the lifestyle we want at this time.

We are in our 70s. We know there will be at least one more move, such as luxury condo apartment or a smaller retirement community based bungalow, and more likely 2 moves, the last one probably being a retirement home with services, or shudders....assisted care. It may not actually be in the Okanagan either if we have no advocates for us that we can rely on at the time. We may have to move to where family advocacy is.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

> Gator...working part time can be beneficial at the start of your retirement.. You and/or your spouse will be able to deduct all your moving expenses, real estate, legal, etc against income earned at the new location. It is a way to get back a percentage of those moving costs from CRA!


ian, we hope to be able to find part-time work doing something we enjoy. I may owe you a nice lunch.....


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

longtimeago, your conclusion of my situation is a false analogy. Your comments are irrelevant to me.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Gator13 said:


> longtimeago, your conclusion of my situation is a false analogy. Your comments are irrelevant to me.


That's fine Gator13, points are raised for discussion and thought. It is not necessary for you to agree with any of them. How long is it till you plan to retire? Next year, 5 years?


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