# Probability of election?



## CrazyEights (May 17, 2016)

While an election could technically be called at any time with a minority government, what does everyone think the actual probability of one occurring this 2021 calendar year? Im reading trudeau is thinking of having one...


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

CrazyEights said:


> While an election could technically be called at any time with a minority government, what does everyone think the actual probability of one occurring this 2021 calendar year? Im reading trudeau is thinking of having one...


Some people are happy with how he's handling the pandemic.

Though to be honest, the things that he's in charge of are a disaster.
vaccine shortages, and a failure to close the border.
I'd bet he's calling an election soon, because someone realized not closing the borders was a PR failure.

The tough decisions are stuck at the premiers.

The problem is that he's trying to time it when his popularity is a bit higher, but he seems to waddle from one failure to the next. I think he'll likely get another minority, anyway.


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## CrazyEights (May 17, 2016)

MrMatt said:


> Some people are happy with how he's handling the pandemic.
> 
> Though to be honest, the things that he's in charge of are a disaster.
> vaccine shortages, and a failure to close the border.
> ...


I agree with everything you say. But i mean why call an election when most people would not want to do one during a pandemic. Would be the lowest voter turn out in history. I imagine most wouldnt want to bother with one. 
What usually happens to all existing bills that are being read. Do they get scrapped?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

My guess would be towards the end of October IF the vaccine rollout goes well. I would think that the Liberals do not want to give OToole time to define himself. 

Mind you, anything can happen between now and then.

I am not impressed with Trudeau. But I even have less confidence in O'Toole et al- especially since he took so long to move on Derek Sloan. 

I believe that O'Toole is desperately in need of a new set of political advisors-and fast.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

CrazyEights said:


> I agree with everything you say. But i mean why call an election when most people would not want to do one during a pandemic. Would be the lowest voter turn out in history. I imagine most wouldnt want to bother with one.
> What usually happens to all existing bills that are being read. Do they get scrapped?


Yes, they all get killed.
The vaccine rollout is a disaster, but maybe people will feel better later.

As far as O'Toole, what would you expect him to do, unilaterally throw Derek Sloan out?


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

I suppose if Trudeau continues to F/U the vaccine rollout, all the older conservative voters will be dead so he will promise UBI to get the young voters out and he will win again./S


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Liberals would prefer to table a budget, and have it defeated and then call an election with the budget as an election plank.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I don't see how the Liberals "messed up" the vaccine rollout as that is a Provincial responsibility, and the Premiers told Ottawa to "stay out" of their business.

Acquiring the vaccines is a Federal matter, but all the countries in the world are chasing vaccines. Canada is not unique in that regard.

I think the Conservatives will have to do far better than hoping Canadians cast an anti-Trudeau vote.

They need to develop some policies that Canadians would support, if they hope to win.

So far, I haven't heard any from the defacto leader Pierre Poilivere, who is on television and Youtube all the time. 

Where is Erin O'Toole ?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Canada has a high global ranking for COVID-19 handling and resiliency, according to a Bloomberg survey which evaluates many metrics.

We're doing reasonably well in the pandemic. I think the government has done a good job overall under these circumstances. The last thing we need is a Conservative party to slash government services and start giving tax cuts to the rich... this is exactly how the US developed a large wealth gap and ended up with poor society safety nets (which is now destroying their society).

We also have to remember that today's Conservative party is really Reform/Alliance, which admires the US Republicans. These days, Harper is producing videos for the American right wing media and the party even ran a secret American in the last election! Did that guy ever renounce his US citizenship, by the way?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Canada has a high global ranking for COVID-19 handling and resiliency, according to a Bloomberg survey which evaluates many metrics.


To tell you the truth, I'd much better to be in Israel during Covid 19... everyone I know over there got their vaccines a long time ago and nobody got any side effect.
I suppose that almost all new cases are coming from ultra-orthodoxic and Arab sectors (who live in their own World)


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

CrazyEights said:


> While an election could technically be called at any time with a minority government, what does everyone think the actual probability of one occurring this 2021 calendar year? Im reading trudeau is thinking of having one...


Historically, minority governments in Canada tend to last about 2 years. The odds of an election in the next 12 months are very high.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

One significant challenge for the Conservatives will be talent. O’Toole does not currently have much bench strength.

He will more than likely have a difficult time attracting star candidates. People who would be recognized as good Cabinet material. Especially in the vote rich urban areas of Montreal, Toronto 416/905, and Vancouver.

Scheer's tenure, IMHO, did a lot of damage to the Conservative party. It may take some time to repair this ongoing damage. In the meantime O'Toole will have to decide who is target market is. Is he going to push policies that are aimed at placating the 25 percent of Conservative Party members who are social conservatives or is he going to present policies that attract votes-specifically the votes in urban areas, in the Maritimes, and in Quebec.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I don't see how the Liberals "messed up" the vaccine rollout as that is a Provincial responsibility, and the Premiers told Ottawa to "stay out" of their business.
> 
> Acquiring the vaccines is a Federal matter, but all the countries in the world are chasing vaccines. Canada is not unique in that regard.
> 
> ...


It is the job of the federal government to secure the vaccine supply.

It is the job of the province to administer it.

The problem is with our poor vaccine supply, and Trudeau misleading Canadians that we have a stable supply.
He was saying he was confident hours before it got cut off.


I agree, the CPC has to do better than anti-Trudeau. Logically that should be enough, but quite honestly people aren't as furious as they should be.
Look how close the US election was, and the argument for an anti-Trump vote was even stronger there.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Politics is in the air !

#StandwithTrudeau is trending on Twitter.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

The f


MrMatt said:


> The problem is with our poor vaccine supply, and Trudeau misleading Canadians that we have a stable supply.
> He was saying he was confident hours before it got cut off.


Funny part that Trudeau "secured" 303M (or so) vaccines - number 1 in the World, also Canada spent on Covid more money per capita than any other country in the World! So, where are vaccines?!
Why Israel gets Moredna's vaccines 1.5 month before schedules (mid-January instead of end of February ) and supply to Canada is cut?! Same story with PFE vaccine..


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Yeah, I don't quite understand how we botched this so badly. I understand the supply disruption, but other countries were able to strike better deals and get more vaccines more quickly. I'm not blaming Trudeau per se, but someone dropped the ball somewhere.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Maybe bribes paid to the vaccine companies. Maybe threats of market disruptions for their drugs in some countries. Maybe threats of Congressional investigations .......questions should be directed to the vaccine makers about what is going on.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

What bribes?! Those are private companies and selling their vaccines to countries who pays more ... do you think they will supply to Canada because Trudeau has a nice hair?!


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

gibor365 said:


> What bribes?! Those are private companies and selling their vaccines to countries who pays more ... do you think they will supply to Canada because Trudeau has a nice hair?!


Those private companies sell a whole lot more than vaccines, for a whole lot more money. At various prices in different countries. No doubt they also benefit from government programs in some places. It's likely not as simple as "vaccine goes to those who pay more for it".


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

off.by.10 said:


> Those private companies sell a whole lot more than vaccines, for a whole lot more money. At various prices in different countries. No doubt they also benefit from government programs in some places. It's likely not as simple as "vaccine goes to those who pay more for it".


Whatever you say....but in your opinion us Trudeau government performed well in supplying vaccines to Canada esp comparing to Israel?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I think some of you guys have very unrealistic ideas of what other countries are experiencing, and are losing sight of the global context.

I'm still a registered patient of a couple US clinics and have been getting email updates. Even if I lived in the US right now, I wouldn't be able to get vaccinated for the foreseeable future. The current estimates I heard from my US clinic are vaccination in *late summer*. Even though the US has a high vaccine delivery rate, it varies by state, is not equal (probably depends on wealth).

The US clinic that I'm a patient of is a top research hospital in its state. It is a top tier clinic ... and I'm telling you that they will NOT vaccinate me until late summer. In fact they are not even committing to a date, but rather emphasizing that their priority is to vaccinate health care workers and high vulnerability groups.

Canada does have the largest number of vaccine doses secured/locked in, per capita, of any country on earth. That doesn't mean the manufacturers have been able to pump out all the doses immediately on day one. Other countries are in the same boat.

You can look at real statistics if you want to see how we're actually doing. The Bloomberg ranking which can be sorted by doses given per capita , shows that Canada is #11 out of the 52 countries they are tracking. Not the best, certainly, but we're up there.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

James. I don't know where are you taking this stats .... #11, really?! Check
Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations - Statistics and Research 
Check Cumulative COVID-19 vaccinations per 100 people after adding All countries.
Canada is number .. 50!!!
What a shame!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_The current estimates I heard from my US clinic are vaccination in *late summer*. - _You at least got estimate, my mom, MIL, uncle, aunt all above 75 and didn't get any estimate ..
_Canada does have the largest number of vaccine doses secured/locked in, per capita, of any country on earth. - _very likely just Liberal "fake news", where are those contract and what are conditions?!


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

gibor365 said:


> _- _very likely just Liberal "fake news", where are those contract and what are conditions?!


No contracts, just best effort agreements, which means last. I suppose we'll have to steal from the poor. What an embarrassment.

ltr


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> No contracts, just best effort agreements, which means last. I suppose we'll have to steal from the poor. What an embarrassment.
> 
> ltr


Very true! 
And so many excuses! Nasty PFE and Moderma who cut supplies specifically to Canada.... Nasty EU who doesn't let export vaccines from EU , however Morerma is coming from Switzerland , who is not EU members...
and somehow Serbia and Israel who not EU members vaccinates respectably 3 times more and hundreds time more than Canada


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## CrazyEights (May 17, 2016)

To come back to the topic-ish....


are we thinking spring 2021, summer 2021, fall 2021...

Or next year for an election.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Israel may have the world's highest vaccination rate but it also has, according to reports, the world's third worst infection rate. The locals are not happy.









Should Israel be praised for its Covid mitigation efforts? It depends who you ask.


A recent poll by the nonpartisan Israel Democracy Institute found that just 24 percent of Israelis approve of the government's management of the crisis.




www.nbcnews.com


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> James. I don't know where are you taking this stats .... #11, really?! Check


Yes, I even linked to the ranking. I said the #11 position is based on number of people vaccinated.

Here again is the Bloomberg ranking which I also posted above. Click the column in the table for the number of vaccine doses given.

While it's becoming popular to complain about slow vaccination in Canada, on the world stage, we are doing quite well.

Really, people in all countries are complaining about slow vaccination. I was on a music event chatroom tonight and people from the UK, US, and all over Europe were ALL complaining about how slow their vaccination rollouts are.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

ian said:


> Israel may have the world's highest vaccination rate but it also has, according to reports, the world's third worst infection rate. The locals are not happy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


According to which report?! Liberal Israel Democracy Institute?!
First of all it's not true...just check worldometers.info and maybe they have this rate because they are doing a lot of test? Don't do tests at all and your rate will be 0. By death per 1M, Israel and Canada are exactly the same 52 an 53 places.
Do you really think that Trudeau's Liberals are managing Covid better than Israel?! What a joke! 
According to Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations - Statistics and Research Israel fully vaccinated (2 doses) 23%, Canada .... 0.3 and Canadians are happy


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Yes, I even linked to the ranking. I said the #11 position is based on number of people vaccinated.
> 
> Here again is the Bloomberg ranking which I also posted above. Click the column in the table for the number of vaccine doses given.
> 
> ...


Don't you find kinda stupid to talk about "total people vaccinated"?! 
Won't be more fair to compare "vaccine doses administered per 100 people"?! And here Canada is on 50th place ...
Obviously people from all over the World gonna complain about vaccination rollout , but there are real numbers 








Daily COVID-19 vaccine doses administered per 100 people


Shown is the rolling 7-day average per 100 people in the total population. This is counted as a single dose, and may not equal the total number of people vaccinated, depending on the specific dose regime (e.g. people receive multiple doses).




ourworldindata.org





_ on the world stage, we are doing quite well. -_ LOL, I don't believe it  , this why we have what we have 

P.S. All people I know who lives in Israel or Russia got vaccines long time ago (or were able to got vaccine, but didn't want it), I expect to get vaccine in GTA in 2023 (when Trudeau factory maybe gonna start to produce something) 

P.P.S. You're Liberal's supporter are so funny! Trudeau wasted most money in the World per capita, vaccinations per capita is 50th place in the World and you are telling "_we are doing quite well" LOL_


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I think some of you guys have very unrealistic ideas of what other countries are experiencing, and are losing sight of the global context.
> 
> I'm still a registered patient of a couple US clinics and have been getting email updates. Even if I lived in the US right now, I wouldn't be able to get vaccinated for the foreseeable future. The current estimates I heard from my US clinic are vaccination in *late summer*. Even though the US has a high vaccine delivery rate, it varies by state, is not equal (probably depends on wealth).
> 
> ...


Canada might have the largest number of doses "secured/locked in", but that doesn't matter unless they show up.
Most of Canada has been shutting down vaccination clinics due to shortages, both the US and the EU are restricting COVID19 shipments, though the EU apparently relaxed recently.

As far as the Bloomberg ranking, it showed 13 when I checked (5am Sunday Feb 7) at 2.12 doses per hundred. Far less than the UK or the US at 9.48 & 6.42, and nowhere near Israel at 38.

I think you're a Liberal partisan, and are unable/unwilling to accept that the Trudeau is anything but world leading at everything.
It's February and they're finally taking the steps to control international travel they should have back in March 2020.
Why they didn't lock down the borders, instead of letting Canada be part of the global petri dish is beyond me.
I wonder how many of the 4k variants are here?








U.K. says 4,000 variants of virus that causes COVID-19 around the world


There are around 4,000 variants of the virus that causes COVID-19 around the world now so all vaccine manufacturers including Pfizer Inc and AstraZeneca Plc are trying to improve their vaccines, a British minister said.




www.ctvnews.ca





There are some things they did right, but I think Canadas Federal COVID response is abysmal, behind only a handful of first world countries.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> As far as the Bloomberg ranking, it showed 13 when I checked (5am Sunday Feb 7) at 2.12 doses per hundred. Far less than the UK or the US at 9.48 & 6.42, and nowhere near Israel at 38.


This data in the Bloomberg article may be out of date, so that could explain a discrepancy with recent news items.

But to clarify this ranking: the "13" label beside Canada refers to the overall Covid Resiliency Ranking and this label sticks with the countries when they are re-sorted. When you sort by 'Doses Given Per 100", that number is useless. It's why you see the number "15" beside Israel, even though in this sorting, they are actually #1. Ignore the number in the first column for this comparison.

I've pasted the image below. Count from the top. Of the 53 countries in the list, this is showing Canada at #11. But this data may be out of date, because other resources I've looked at show Canada behind Germany.

There are also likely differences in methodology between these different sources. One big issue is how they are counting a single dose of a two-dose regimen.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

james4beach said:


> This data in the Bloomberg article may be out of date, so that could explain a discrepancy with recent news items.


Perhaps our scheduling has been put back on track by taking doses earmarked for “developing countries.” Nothing like visiting the food bank to fill yourself up.

ltr


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> This data in the Bloomberg article may be out of date, so that could explain a discrepancy with recent news items.
> 
> But to clarify this ranking: the "13" label beside Canada refers to the overall Covid Resiliency Ranking and this label sticks with the countries when they are re-sorted. When you sort by 'Doses Given Per 100", that number is useless. It's why you see the number "15" beside Israel, even though in this sorting, they are actually #1. Ignore the number in the first column for this comparison.
> 
> ...


Good point, it's silly to have a leftmost index that isn't reflective of what's being sorted.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

In the only data that matters in an election, the Liberals maintain a sizeable lead where it matters.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Israel isn't vaccinating the Palestinian population.......who are awaiting the Sputnik vaccine from Russia, so the statistics may be misleading.

The US is shutting down vaccination sites due to a lack of vaccine. Every country is trying to secure vaccines at a faster rate.


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## CrazyEights (May 17, 2016)

While the vaccination roll out is of course a large issue, unfortunately this thread has gone a bit off topic.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

gibor365 said:


> Whatever you say....but in your opinion us Trudeau government performed well in supplying vaccines to Canada esp comparing to Israel?


I really haven't looked at enough countries to say. Picking a single one to compare is ridiculous, there's often an exception which is way better for whatever reason. Unions use the same flawed method, the classic "we should get a raise to match those guys who earn 30% more!!" while ignoring everyone else.

In any case, the Trudeau government has mishandled enough things that I really don't need to dig more to convince myself it's crap. Knowing the exact level of crap is of little use to me.

As for the actual topic, I think this year is likely, especially if the conservatives keep showing signs of moving to the center. It would make sense for them to aim when the virus issues are mostly done and the deficit is still huge. Spring a year from now is a distinct possibility as well. Sadly, I doubt we'll be rid of Trudeau and his lies either.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> Israel isn't vaccinating the Palestinian population.......who are awaiting the Sputnik vaccine from Russia, so the statistics may be misleading.
> 
> The US is shutting down vaccination sites due to a lack of vaccine. Every country is trying to secure vaccines at a faster rate.


Palestinians are not Israeli citizens (even though Israel spending millions on 
Humanitarian Aid to the Palestinians). 

Just couple of days ago Israel gave to Palestinians 5,000 doses of Covid.
However, considering constant military attacks on Israel , imho, they shouldn't do it.
All Israeli citizens include Arabs, Druz and other minorities getting vaccine same way like Jewish


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_who are awaiting the Sputnik vaccine - _imho, Canada should ask for Sputnik vaccine or we gonna be waiting for couple of years


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

off.by.10 said:


> I really haven't looked at enough countries to say. Picking a single one to compare is ridiculous, there's often an exception which is way better for whatever reason. Unions use the same flawed method, the classic "we should get a raise to match those guys who earn 30% more!!" while ignoring everyone else.
> 
> In any case, the Trudeau government has mishandled enough things that I really don't need to dig more to convince myself it's crap. Knowing the exact level of crap is of little use to me.
> 
> As for the actual topic, I think this year is likely, especially if the conservatives keep showing signs of moving to the center. It would make sense for them to aim when the virus issues are mostly done and the deficit is still huge. Spring a year from now is a distinct possibility as well. Sadly, I doubt we'll be rid of Trudeau and his lies either.


Check Cumulative COVID-19 vaccinations per 100 people after adding All countries.
Canada is number .. 50!!!


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

If there was an election now, or in the foreseeable future I would not vote for O'Toole. He has not given me a reason to do so. The Conservatives have a policy convention coming up in March. 

It will be interesting to see what policies are passed by the membership vs. what policies are actually put forward by elected those who are elected or running for office leading up to, and during the next election.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

ian said:


> If there was an election now, or in the foreseeable future I would not vote for O'Toole. He has not given me a reason to do so. The Conservatives have a policy convention coming up in March.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what policies are passed by the membership vs. what policies are actually put forward by elected those who are elected or running for office leading up to, and during the next election.


No choice for me .... yes, I'd prefer to vote for Harper...but the major task is to kick out the worse PM ever out of the office


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> If there was an election now, or in the foreseeable future I would not vote for O'Toole. He has not given me a reason to do so. The Conservatives have a policy convention coming up in March.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what policies are passed by the membership vs. what policies are actually put forward by elected those who are elected or running for office leading up to, and during the next election.


I've heard very little from O'Toole and the conservatives in general.

I'd want to make absolutely sure these guys aren't Republican kind of types before even considering voting. These Reform/Alliance guys have a history of mimicking US Republicans, so they need to show me through words & actions that they aren't anything like those lunatics down south.

There are many reasons to suspect that the Conservatives want to follow in the footsteps of US Republicans. Harper for example adopted the same approach of politicization of Christian fundamentalists / evangelicals, and there were still very strong links to fundamentalists under Scheer.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I've heard very little from O'Toole and the conservatives in general.
> 
> I'd want to make absolutely sure these guys aren't Republican kind of types before even considering voting. These Reform/Alliance guys have a history of mimicking US Republicans, so they need to show me through words & actions that they aren't anything like those lunatics down south.
> 
> There are many reasons to suspect that the Conservatives want to follow in the footsteps of US Republicans. Harper for example adopted the same approach of politicization of Christian fundamentalists / evangelicals, and there were still very strong links to fundamentalists under Scheer.


Typical liberal fake news....
All Jewish votes I know, and I know a lot, always voting Conservatives. Harper was the biggest friend of Israel ever.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_ before even considering voting. - _How can you vote at all?! You are in Oregon and borders are closed


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> All Jewish votes I know, and I know a lot, always voting Conservatives. Harper was the biggest friend of Israel ever.


Friend of Israel? Only superficially. Just like the Republicans, Harper and the Conservatives are *using* you (they are exploiting you) for their own benefits, without really caring about your issues. All they want is power and tax breaks for their rich groups.

Conservatives, imitating the Republicans, like to appeal to religious people as a way to win votes. They appeal to fundamentalist Christians and Evangelicals, anti-abortion groups, and pro-Israel voters such as yourself. These groups are single issue voters who also have very strong motivations. Therefore, they always show up to vote, because these issues are *big deals* to them.

You are being used, gibor. The rich elites are exploiting your love of Israel, because they know you will dutifully vote for them.

Plus @gibor365 you definitely do NOT speak for all Jewish voters. Yeah, I'm sure your circle of right wing ex cops love Harper. But there are many Jewish people who don't align with these conservative / Republican values, even in Israel.



gibor365 said:


> _before even considering voting. - _How can you vote at all?! You are in Oregon and borders are closed


First, Canadian citizens living in other countries still vote. Second, I actually live in Canada.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

OMG.........................


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

like_to_retire said:


> OMG.........................


I know, isn't it disgusting how Conservatives play the population, and take advantage of religious fervour?

People have powerful beliefs that they hold very dear. They are sacred beliefs at the core of their being. In the case of @gibor365 it is a deep love for Israel and the ties to his ancestry. And then some shady politician shows up, and manipulates them into becoming a voting base.

That was Harper's big idea. To create a religious + pro Israel voting block in Canada, just like the American Republicans do it.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

O"Toole and the Conservatives have a fundamental problem. The Conservative Party members are estimated to be about 25 percent social conservatives. Canada is 10 percent. Much less in the vote rich urban areas. This creates a fundamental push and pull within the Party. Scheer ruined his chances and set the tone in his first election interview in Quebec.

Instead of spouting the tried, true, and successful responses of Harper he went a different way. He got publicity but it was in the form of cartoons rather than columns. The election continued to go downhill for him from that moment. At first I thought it was a one off...bad advice. But it was not so, he got worse as time went on. O'Toole will not repeat those foolish mistakes.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> O"Toole and the Conservatives have a fundamental problem. The Conservative Party members are estimated to be about 25 percent social conservatives. Canada is 10 percent. Much less in the vote rich urban areas.


ian, how does this compare to the PCs (before Reform/Alliance took over the party)... for example Mulroney, Diefenbaker.

Back then, was the party still this interested in social conservatism?

I know the tone and strategy that Harper set. But I'm wondering how things were different for the Conservative party before 2000. I'd love to hear from people older than me about those earlier decades.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Cannot say about Diefenbaker. I think he was a buffoon. Mulroney is/was a red Tory and he had control of the Party in the same way that Harper did. It is easier to do so when you are the PM and can hand out the goodies...the positions that increase one's exposure or pay compensation over and above an MP's salary. Or buy people off with five and seven year appointments to boards. Not to mention Senate appointments.

Harper had his share of failures to the Senate just like other PM's. Think Mike Duffy or that con man so called Pastor Dr. Don Meredith who was forced to resign because because of bullying and harassing female staff members and his alleged affair with a 16 yr. old. Not to mention his completely false credentials/education degrees.

Harper went through boxes of duct tape that he placed over the mouths of his MP's. Not one member of his team was allowed to even say hello in the Commons, let alone speak, without having that speech approved in advance by the PM's office. The only person who ignored that edict was the late Jim Flaherty...to his credit. The rest were gutless and scared of loosing their paying positions on Parliamentary committees, etc.

I don't suppose it is much different under Trudeau. It is all about power. Gaining it and keeping it.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

james4beach said:


> .....Just like the Republicans, Harper and the Conservatives are *using* you (they are exploiting you) for their own benefits, without really caring about your issues. All they want is power and tax breaks for their rich groups.


James, James, James, you are missing what's really important in Canada today. Shake your head.

Why are you worrying about Mr. Harper from so many years ago when we are waist deep in a pandemic and overspending like a drunken sailor without a viable leader or parliament to lead us?

I only need to defer to an article yesterday by Rex Murphy to make this point. Here are some highlights of his latest article.

"The country is in an economic coma. The House of Commons is a movie set. We are shamed in the international community."

"It’s a mess. It’s a shambles. It’s an embarrassment. It is the worst ever by any reasonable measurement."

"Judging by their performance on the most important files, the current bunch in Ottawa would need to hire a consultant to figure out how to get wet in a thunderstorm, and set up a task force to study how to tie their own shoes."

"The worry and anxiety level of most everyday citizens — especially those not shielded by uninterrupted cheques from provincial and federal governments, and those not serving as a member of a legislature — is at an all-time high."

"One year into COVID our venerated House of Commons is a disemboweled, non-functioning, neglected wreck."

"To calm yourself, however, there is always this: Climate change. Climate change. Climate change. Two billion trees. Two billion trees."









Rex Murphy: This is the worst Canadian government ever. Can there be any question?


The country is in an economic coma. The House of Commons is a movie set. We are shamed in the international community. And the list goes on




nationalpost.com





ltr


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

ian said:


> If there was an election now, or in the foreseeable future I would not vote for O'Toole. He has not given me a reason to do so. The Conservatives have a policy convention coming up in March.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what policies are passed by the membership vs. what policies are actually put forward by elected those who are elected or running for office leading up to, and during the next election.


I think that's the problem.
Lots of reasons not to vote for Trudeau.

O'Toole hasn't been able to articulate why to vote for him. 
We can't expect the Canadian public to suddenly wise up and see how bad Trudeau is.

The CPC is playing the same stupid game the US democrats were, but Trudeau isn't as obviously bad as Trump.


----------



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

james4beach said:


> how does this compare to the PCs (before Reform/Alliance took over the party)... for example Mulroney, Diefenbaker.
> 
> Back then, was the party still this interested in social conservatism?


My recollection and experience was that the religious right, anti-immigration folks and nut-bars gravitated much more to Reform than to the PCs.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

LOL......Rex Murphy has been attacking Trudeau since 2013 and despite the considerable arse whupping Trudea bestowed upon Stephen Harper, followed by a somewhat lighter dump of Andrew Scheer along the side of the political road.....old Rex is still predicting Trudeau's demise.

Some day the baffled Rex may "get" Justin Trudeau's popularity.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

sags said:


> Some day the baffled Rex may "get" Justin Trudeau's popularity.


Number one indication of a losing position is when they attack the messenger instead of the message.

It's just that the left is so embarrassed about their leader who steals vaccines from the poor, they don't know where to turn.

ltr


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Trudeau's win over Scheer was a classic gimme. Scheer handed Trudeau the golden ring on a silver platter. The only sad part about the whole process was that Scheer was apparently in the dark. It has been reported that up to 2 days before the vote Scheers 'experts' were telling him that he would win 20 seats more than the Liberals. Apparently his team was so inept that they had not even prepared a concession speech in advance for Scheer. I felt embarrassed for Scheer.

Trudeau's win over Harper took political skill and savvy. Besides, Harper was happy to go. His minions were not. They were over confident.

The only poll that counts is the one on election day.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The NDP offer voters what they wish they could have but know isn't practically attainable.

The Conservatives listen to what people want and then try to force feed their ideology onto them of what they "should" want.

The Liberals are "apolitical".......neither far left or far right. They are not burdened by ideology. They listen to the people and give them what is attainable.

The Liberals work best for people in a socially Democratic society like Canada.

If it was Trudeau or Freeland as leader........the results would be the same.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> Number one indication of a losing position is when they attack the messenger instead of the message.
> 
> It's just that the left is so embarrassed about their leader who steals vaccines from the poor, they don't know where to turn.
> 
> ltr


Funny......Today on CNN, Fareed Zakaria gave kudos to the Canadian government for pledging vaccines to the poor countries.

The government previously gave $485 million to poor countries for testing kits and PPE.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Friend of Israel? Only superficially. Just like the Republicans, Harper and the Conservatives are *using* you (they are exploiting you) for their own benefits, without really caring about your issues. All they want is power and tax breaks for their rich groups.
> 
> Conservatives, imitating the Republicans, like to appeal to religious people as a way to win votes. They appeal to fundamentalist Christians and Evangelicals, anti-abortion groups, and pro-Israel voters such as yourself. These groups are single issue voters who also have very strong motivations. Therefore, they always show up to vote, because these issues are *big deals* to them.
> 
> ...


Sorry to say James, but you are really brainwashed by Liberal propaganda. 
Bibi is not stupid and _Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu made an official speech to the Canadian delegation calling Harper "a great friend of Israel and the Jewish people." 


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stephen-harper-welcomed-as-great-friend-of-israel-1.2502627


_No one would ever say it about Trudeau or other Liberal.
There are ex-cops in my circle, many didn't even serve in IDF, but everyone is very conservative... 
Liberals are anti Israel, anti-Semitic, anti rich, pro-terrorism, 
Harper did a lot of excellent things as cutting taxes, increasing TFSA, introducing family tax split (Canada is the only developed country in the World that doesn't have it), no ridiculous carbon tax, "great reset" etc.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> If it was Trudeau or Freeland as leader........the results would be the same.


Do you mean it doesn't matter who gonna finally destroy this country?!


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

sags said:


> Funny......Today on CNN, Fareed Zakaria gave kudos to the Canadian government for pledging vaccines to the poor countries.


She just didn't know that we'd then turn around and steal vaccines from them. Instead of just admitting that we screwed up and that we'll be near the back of the line for vaccines, Trudeau decided it was OK to rob the poor so he wouldn't look so bad about his mishandling of the situation.

ltr


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

James , from another thread you say _The current estimates I heard from my US clinic are vaccination in *late summer* ..._
and here you say _ I actually live in Canada. _

You're confusing me, do you live in Canada , but your clinic in the US?! Groovy


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gardner said:


> My recollection and experience was that the religious right, anti-immigration folks and nut-bars gravitated much more to Reform than to the PCs.


Right, and the PCs are gone. Reform _became_ the Conservative party.

I liked the PC party but I'm not sure about these Reform/Alliance guys we have today.



like_to_retire said:


> Why are you worrying about Mr. Harper from so many years ago


Because Harper set the recipe for the current Conservative party. So his underlying principles are very important to understand... he intended for this to be a party of social conservatism, with a significant (fundamentalist) religious base. And I'm also worried that Harper intended this to be a northern Republican party.

They don't represent Canadians, broadly.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> James , from another thread you say _The current estimates I heard from my US clinic are vaccination in *late summer* ..._
> and here you say _ I actually live in Canada. _
> 
> You're confusing me, do you live in Canada , but your clinic in the US?! Groovy


Right, I still have my US clinic membership. I didn't cancel when I moved, so I still get updates from them.

It's also to keep my medical treatment options open, especially in case some horrible conservative government gets into power and slashes healthcare spending -- like they did in Manitoba, for example. There were huge cuts to Manitoba hospitals and ICUs, in fact, shortly before the pandemic started.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> Liberals are anti Israel, anti-Semitic, anti rich, pro-terrorism,


That's bull crap, but I'm not surprised to hear it coming from you.

There are plenty of Jewish liberals... in Canada, US, Europe, and yes in Israel too.



gibor365 said:


> Bibi is not stupid


Not stupid perhaps, but he *is* a crook, facing fraud, corruption and bribery charges. I bet you love Trump too.


----------



## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

Rex Murphy: This is the worst Canadian government ever. Can there be any question?


The country is in an economic coma. The House of Commons is a movie set. We are shamed in the international community. And the list goes on




nationalpost.com





Friends who voted for Trudeau and the Libs just sent me this.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Who knows what will happen between now and the election. I would not like to predict. What I have found from living in various parts of Canada is that your perceptions really vary by location.

Here in Alberta everyone seemed so shocked when Justin Trudeau defeated Stephen Harper. It should not have been a surprise. The polling numbers were indicating this two weeks prior to the election. Same to a large extent with Scheer. But Albertans seem to think because they vote heavily conservative the rest of the country should. Same in the Maritimes where it often goes Liberal in a huge way.

It is a numbers game and those close call urban ridings where a candidate wins by a thousand or so votes can go any way during the election campaign. Just ask Harper or Scheer. Harper benefited by them but on the last go round was defeated by them. What is important or near and dear to posters on this forum may or may not be for the majority of voters. This is one reason why the upcoming Conservative Policy meeting may be critical and it was probably the impetus for dumping Derek Sloan from the caucus.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

gibor365 said:


> Check Cumulative COVID-19 vaccinations per 100 people after adding All countries.
> Canada is number .. 50!!!


Reading an article this morning comparing Canada to Britian.

*Total vaccines delivered:*

Canada – one million

Britain – 11.5 million

*Percent of population vaccinated:*

Canada – 2.76%

Britain – 17%

*Rank in the world:*

Canada –39th

Britain – 4th

*Total population:*

Canada – 38 million

Britain – 66 million

*___*

ltr


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

sags said:


> Funny......Today on CNN, Fareed Zakaria gave kudos to the Canadian government for pledging vaccines to the poor countries.


Funny..... reading a response from OXFAM today.

*In response to the Canadian government’s announcement to draw on the supply of COVID-19 vaccines through the COVAX program, Diana Sarosi, Oxfam Canada’s Director of Policy and Campaigns said the following:*

“Canada should not be taking the COVAX vaccine from poor nations to alleviate political pressures at home. Receiving one or two million doses isn’t going to solve Canada’s vaccination challenges and it is going to cause harm elsewhere in the world for the poorest and most marginalized people.”

“Purchasing more vaccines, when Canada has already purchased enough to vaccinate the entire population four times over, is not a viable solution. Canada should promote and champion global collaborative solutions led by the World Health Organizations COVID-19 Technology Access Pool.”

ltr


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

ian said:


> Who knows what will happen between now and the election. I would not like to predict. What I have found from living in various parts of Canada is that your perceptions really vary by location.
> 
> Here in Alberta everyone seemed so shocked when Justin Trudeau defeated Stephen Harper. It should not have been a surprise. The polling numbers were indicating this two weeks prior to the election. Same to a large extent with Scheer. But Albertans seem to think because they vote heavily conservative the rest of the country should. Same in the Maritimes where it often goes Liberal in a huge way.
> 
> It is a numbers game and those close call urban ridings where a candidate wins by a thousand or so votes can go any way during the election campaign. Just ask Harper or Scheer. Harper benefited by them but on the last go round was defeated by them. What is important or near and dear to posters on this forum may or may not be for the majority of voters. This is one reason why the upcoming Conservative Policy meeting may be critical and it was probabl


Conservative won the popular vote but the Liberals got more seats in Ontario to form a minority government.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Some day the baffled Rex may "get" Justin Trudeau's popularity.


Unlikely.
Trudeau is so awful, it's very hard to comprehend how anyone can see him as a suitable PM.

You really have to warp your mind to understand that Trudeau supporters don't see his flaws, they just see someone standing up for what they think is important.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Because Harper set the recipe for the current Conservative party. So his underlying principles are very important to understand... he intended for this to be a party of social conservatism, with a significant (fundamentalist) religious base. And I'm also worried that Harper intended this to be a northern Republican party.
> 
> They don't represent Canadians, broadly.


Ahh the social conservative boogieman.

Harper kept the social conservatives locked down for larger policy objectives.
He didn't actually implement any major social conservative policies.

I didn't vote Harper for social policy, I honestly don't think that the government has a role in most of it anyway.

What we really need is a government that isn't trying to be a nanny state, and let people be free to make their own choices.
But that doesn't fit with how they see the world.
Trudeau admires the power of dictatorships to shape the country, I don't think he sees the dangers.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Harper learned from the demise of the Reform Party. He understood numbers. And he was smart. He clearly delineated his personal convictions from party policy or what he stated his Government would do. During the his first election he clearly stated that the Party under his leadership would not change the abortion laws. He statement was that this issue had been decided by Canadians. The reality at the time, and now is the public approval for our current abortion policy has held steady at about 58 percent. Harper could add.....he knew it would be folly to do or say anything else. Exact same for same sex marriage. Not only was public acceptance of gay marriage in the mid 60 percent and climbing at the time, any change would involve an amendment to Charter. This would never happen.

Harper is a social conservative but he is a realist and a political animal. At the end of his tenure many social conservatives were disappointed in him for lack of action. But he was a man of his word on these two issues and he never wavered. That is how he gained the acceptance of voters whom he otherwise might not have had he pushed some the the traditional conservative agenda items.

At the end of the day it is all about the numbers.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The next budget will outline the Liberal vision for a path forward, and I suspect will highlight the differences between the Liberals and Conservative agendas.

I don't think the past matters much. Canadians will be more interested in their future.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Liberals are currently consulting with Canadians on the budget that would be due in March.

It is reported that a national daycare program will be introduced, and there will be significant spending on alternative energy, infrastructure, and financial support for COVID.

The Conservatives can present their alternative and Canadians can vote their preference.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

No matter who wins the next election, my guys or your guys, I really do not envisage a change in Government having a major impact on my life or on my finances. The biggest change will be the change of faces.

That is my bottom line. In reality both parties hug the center line. They are well aware that they will get punished in the next election if they swerve too far from the fulcrum.

Neither Party or leader, once elected, is going to magically transport our country into some sort of shangri-la or euphoria. We won't be realizing a lower rate of taxaiton, less poverty, or the elimination of world hunger.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> Reading an article this morning comparing Canada to Britian.
> 
> *Total vaccines delivered:*
> 
> ...


UK administers 200 vaccine in minute! Almost 300K per day.... Israel was administering 150K .... Ontario is proudly stay in range 2K-7K daily.
Trudeau promised to vaccinate All LTC and staff by end of January LOL (but he didn't specify year)


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Retiredguy said:


> Rex Murphy: This is the worst Canadian government ever. Can there be any question?
> 
> 
> The country is in an economic coma. The House of Commons is a movie set. We are shamed in the international community. And the list goes on
> ...


Very good article


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Not stupid perhaps, but he *is* a crook, facing fraud, corruption and bribery charges. I bet you love Trump too.


Comparing to Trudeau , Bibi just an angel !

Sure, I supported Trump (as well as all my family and friends). He's a great man who cared about his country....

I also support Putin who made Russia great again..

The most important for me, to kick our corrupted lair Trudeau with his liberal Junta


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I guess that we would all be so much better off if we all emigrated to Israel.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

ian said:


> I guess that we would all be so much better off if we all emigrated to Israel.


" we would all be so much better off if we " had PM like Bibi than current clown


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> Comparing to Trudeau , Bibi just an angel !
> 
> Sure, I supported Trump (as well as all my family and friends). He's a great man who cared about his country....
> 
> I also support Putin who made Russia great again..


Looks like you support a whole bunch of crooked tyrants there. I sense a theme!

Putin: dictator, crook, steals all the money from the Russian people
Trump: wanted to be dictator, most crooked president in history
Bibi: famously crooked, clinging to power to avoid corruption charges

Or to gibor, the ex-cop ... they sound like great men! You'd almost think he's trolling but no, this is real.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Formula for gibor's post 1 + 1 ≠ 2 but it does equal to 4.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

james4beach said:


> Putin: dictator, crook, steals all the money from the Russian people
> Trump: wanted to be dictator, most crooked president in history
> Bibi: famously crooked, clinging to power to avoid corruption charges


It's a trifecta.


Putin: steals all the money from the Russian people
Trudeau: steals the COVAX vaccine from poor nations to alleviate political pressures


Trump: wanted to be dictator, most crooked president in history
Trudeau: Trudeau prorogues parliament. 


Bibi: famously crooked, clinging to power to avoid corruption charges
Trudeau: Corruption?

ltr


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The Liberals are currently consulting with Canadians on the budget that would be due in March.
> 
> It is reported that a national daycare program will be introduced, and there will be significant spending on alternative energy, infrastructure, and financial support for COVID.
> 
> The Conservatives can present their alternative and Canadians can vote their preference.


No the Liberals are consulting with pollsters on what will win an election.
They likely won't do what they promise, which in all honesty is a good thing, their promises will be ridiculous.
I imagine it will include massive pharmacare we can't afford, a daycare, which won't be accessible for most, I imagine it will work for government office workers working 9-4, but nothing for shiftworkers etc who don't neatly fall into institutional care.
I also imagine they'll spend on a lot on UBI supports so people don't have to do dirty jobs, like be a PSW or something.

OF course what they end up doing will likely be pretty bad.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Right, I still have my US clinic membership. I didn't cancel when I moved, so I still get updates from them.
> 
> It's also to keep my medical treatment options open,


Very good move! You will be able to get vaccine in Oregon this summer, in Canada , you'd wait (for your age group) until 2023


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> It's a trifecta.
> 
> 
> Putin: steals all the money from the Russian people
> ...


Trudeau : steals all the money from the Russian people
Trudeau: wanted to be dictator, most crooked president in history
Trudeau: Corruption!!!

P.S. You can hardly find Canadians who lived in USSR who vote Liberals.... this is because there are too many similarities between Liberals and Commonest Party of Soviet Union


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Formula for gibor's post 1 + 1 ≠ 2 but it does equal to 4.



In Non-Euclidean geometry this is correct


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Or to gibor, the ex-cop


James several times emphasizing that I'm ex-cop .. Probably he wants to show that he's much more educated .... however, for your info, cops - not only OPP guys who give you speeding tickets 
And for the record , I got Master degree in Engineering (recognized in Canada) + degree in IT from Canadian institution


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

gibor365 said:


> James several times emphasizing that I'm ex-cop .. Probably he wants to show that he's much more educated .... however, for your info, cops - not only OPP guys who give you speeding tickets
> And for the record , I got Master degree in Engineering (recognized in Canada) + degree in IT from Canadian institution


I wouldn't worry too much about it gibor365 - name calling and elitism are all part of the left's tactics when they have nothing else to work with.

ltr


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about it gibor365 - name calling and elitism are all part of the left's tactics when they have nothing else to work with.


Absolutely!


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Canadians trust Trudeau and will be very happy with the budget............. I think you will be too.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

sags said:


> Canadians trust Trudeau and will be very happy with the budget............. I think you will be too.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Why on earth would I trust a politician......Liberal or Conservactive?


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

like_to_retire said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about it gibor365 - name calling and elitism are all part of the left's tactics when they have nothing else to work with.


The left's tactics? That's hilarious... the main thing the *right wing* has become famous for in the last 5 years is berating and belittling everyone else.

Trump is a great example. So is the entire right wing media machinery, much of which revolves around trolling centrists and "owning the libs", their favourite past time.

Besides, I didn't call anyone names. You're imagining things.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

like_to_retire said:


> Putin: steals all the money from the Russian people
> Trudeau: steals the COVAX vaccine from poor nations to alleviate political pressures
> 
> 
> ...


I'll exclude Netanyahu since I don't know too much about him.

But Putin & Trump... if you think Trudeau is anywhere close to these monsters, wow, you need to learn more about the world.

Then again, like_to_retire, maybe you would enjoy Jagmeet Singh as PM. He's a very honest and intelligent man. Do you think you might vote for him?


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> The left's tactics? That's hilarious... the main thing the *right wing* has become famous for in the last 5 years is berating and belittling everyone else.
> 
> Trump is a great example. So is the entire right wing media machinery, much of which revolves around trolling centrists and "owning the libs", their favourite past time.
> 
> Besides, I didn't call anyone names. You're imagining things.


_ entire right wing media machinery - _there is no right wing media in Canada (except Rebel media)


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I'll exclude Netanyahu since I don't know too much about him.
> 
> But Putin & Trump... if you think Trudeau is anywhere close to these monsters, wow, you need to learn more about the world.


Trudeau is not close to them, Trudeau is much worse 



> Then again, like_to_retire, maybe you would enjoy Jagmeet Singh as PM. He's a very honest and intelligent man. Do you think you might vote for him?


Vladimir Lenin was also "a very honest and intelligent man"


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> Trudeau is not close to them, Trudeau is much worse


Trudeau is _worse_ than Putin and Trump?

Hilarious. I suppose you only respect dictators and people who don't believe in democracy. As outlandish as this comment is, I'm not surprised to hear it from you.

People reading this should take note. There are people in our society who *don't* want democracy, and who yearn to live in dictatorships. What a chilling thought!



gibor365 said:


> Vladimir Lenin was also "a very honest and intelligent man"


I don't see the relevance. But I think you might like Jagmeet Singh... you should read about his platform. I think you will find there is much to like about him.

Who knows, maybe you will end up voting for Jagmeet and the NDP:









Meet Jagmeet Singh


Guided by values rooted in his experiences growing up, Jagmeet is building a fairer, more just Canada where everyone can realize their dreams.




www.ndp.ca


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

@gibor365 , you seem to admire manly, powerful leader types like the dictators you listed earlier. The strong father figure that you want to be your king.

Here is Jagmeet. You can see that he's quite strong and manly, kind of like Father Putin... but even stronger! In fact Jagmeet is younger, healthier, and better looking than ugly old Putin.

Strong like bear. Strong like a policeman or military man. Not old and washed up like Putin, not overweight and stupid like Trump.

What do you think gibor, are you convinced? Jagmeet can be your new Dear Leader.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> @gibor365 , you seem to admire manly, powerful leader types like the dictators you listed earlier. The strong father figure that you want to be your king.
> 
> Here is Jagmeet. You can see that he's quite strong and manly, kind of like Father Putin... but even stronger! In fact Jagmeet is younger, healthier, and better looking than ugly old Putin.
> 
> ...


I'm not like vote for guy who is "younger, healthier, and better looking" 
and the only dictator I see in this thread is your beloved "black face" and nice hair guy!

P.S. I suspect that plates on the last pic are fake LOL. btw, Lenin had similar pic with "inflated log"


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Canadians trust Trudeau and will be very happy with the budget............. I think you will be too.
> 
> View attachment 21245


The vast majority of Canadians didn't vote Liberal.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

The vast majority of Canadians do not vote for Conservative either.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> The vast majority of Canadians didn't vote Liberal.


Unfortunately you have to face reality here that the Liberals are pretty much at the happy medium.

The NDP has a very sharp leader, and they push for more socialist policies. But many baby boomers in particular (those with cold war traumas and nightmares from their childhood) can't ever support socialists.

The people calling themselves "Conservatives" are really Reform-Alliance, social/religious conservatives who are closer to American Republicans than the old, traditional conservatives in Canada.

The Liberals achieve such a balanced point at the center that the left complains that they're too pro-business and aren't spending enough, and the right complains that they're spending too much.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

james4beach said:


> The NDP has a very sharp leader, and they push for more socialist policies.


Yeah, I'd label it as a sharp opportunist that realizes the gift they've been offered in the Liberal minority situation. Other than that there's not much substance there.




james4beach said:


> The Liberals achieve such a balanced point at the center that the left complains that they're too pro-business and aren't spending enough, and the right complains that they're spending too much.


Yeah, good summation. They do position themselves where they are certainly most electable. What usually happens is that they overspend until enough people open their eyes and then the Conservatives get voted back in. Unfortunately, the Conservatives then have to spend four years undoing all the financial ruin that the Liberals created and this sends the voting public into a tizzy and they vote the Conservatives out. Then the cycle starts again.




james4beach said:


> The people calling themselves "Conservatives" are really Reform-Alliance, social/religious conservatives who are closer to American Republicans than the old, traditional conservatives in Canada.


I think you're generally incorrect about this. I look at myself and many who move in my circle and we are fiscal conservatives, who don't believe in the religious imaginary man in the sky, support lots of the Liberal centrist ideals, and are quite far from the US type Republican. There's a lot of us that are appalled at the fiscal irresponsibility of the Trudeau Liberals who seem to stoop to anything to get re-elected.

You have to be careful supporting any position too strongly and look at it from all sides. I've supported several Liberal leaders in the past, but todays situation with the Liberals is beyond support. 

ltr


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Most Canadians are fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Too bad no party does an excellent job at promoting that.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

like_to_retire said:


> I think you're generally incorrect about this. I look at myself and many who move in my circle and we are fiscal conservatives, who don't believe in the religious imaginary man in the sky, support lots of the Liberal centrist ideals, and are quite far from the US type Republican. There's a lot of us that are appalled at the fiscal irresponsibility of the Trudeau Liberals who seem to stoop to anything to get re-elected.


Harper had massive deficits and put Canada into the red big time, for years after the recession subsided. What makes you think Conservatives are better at fiscal management? This is a big lie they put out there ... not sure why you'd believe it.

I understand fiscal conservatism, and that's why I think the Liberals are the right party. The Conservative party is really just about tax cuts for the rich, which is NOT fiscal conservatism. That blows holes in our budget, which is what Harper did.

Truth is, these deficits happen any time there is a recession/depression, which is both what Harper and Trudeau have found themselves in. Did you see what happened to GDP when covid hit? The sharpest GDP decline in recorded history. It's a miracle we aren't in a depression right now and Trudeau's team has to be applauded for managing this so well.

Not only that but the CAD has remained stable vs USD and other world currencies, our better diversified economy wasn't crippled due to the oil wipeout.

If Conservatives had been in power at the outset of covid, we'd still have massive deficits... it wouldn't be much different. But one difference is that they would have also handed out free money to the rich, with big tax cuts, further hurting the condition of the budget.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

My son asked me awhile back who was better........Liberals or Conservatives ?

I told him "if you want to keep the $1500 a month you get from the child benefit you best vote Liberal."

I told him the Conservatives would rather give the money to the wealthy and Walmart in tax cuts.

They will be voting Liberal.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> I told him the Conservatives would rather give the money to the wealthy and Walmart in tax cuts.


I actually do understand how someone who is truly rich, maybe with $100 million or higher net worth, or who owns an oil company, would want to vote Conservative. They should ... this is their party. Those are the people they serve.

But everyone else, and I suspect most people at CMF, are not well served by Conservative policies.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> But everyone else, and I suspect most people at CMF, are not well served by Conservative policies.


BS, we don't have 100M , and what we have , we earned despite of ridiculous taxes, but served very well for Conservatives... Even our moms whose only income is Israeli OAS hate corrupted Trudeau and always vote for Cons...
Liberals got elected (even by losing popular vote) because of lazy bums (who called in Canada "less fortunate" LOL)


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I believe that the Liberals and the Conservatives are just as bad and as untrustworthy as each other.

It is not hard for any PM to get elected with a smaller share of the popular vote. The Conservatives have won the same way. It is inevitable when we have 4, sometimes 5 parties, we have a riding based system, etc. Nothing exceptional about this. The Liberals won decisively in Atlantic Canada and in the urban areas of southern Ontario. Besides, it was not so much that the Liberals won as it was that the Conservatives, under Scheer, handed to them on a silver plate. It is what happens when you have absolutely no recognizable election policy platform other than we want to help the middle class and we believe in law and order. I mean really, that won't get your around the corner except with your dyed in the wool supporters.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_The Liberals won decisively in Atlantic Canada and in the urban areas of southern Ontario. _and Conservatives won 99% seats in AB and SK, and decisively in MB ...
Canada is a very weird country


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Pierre Poilievere was shuffled out of the finance critic job.

I don't think his "throw open the economy and hope for the best" theory was helping the Conservative's credibility factor.

Good move by O'Toole.


----------



## Emjay85 (Nov 9, 2014)

sags said:


> My son asked me awhile back who was better........Liberals or Conservatives ?
> 
> I told him "if you want to keep the $1500 a month you get from the child benefit you best vote Liberal."


That's ridiculous


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

The Conservatives can win an election. They have proved this in the past. But...it takes a combination of a good leader, star candidates, a good election platform, hard work by dedicated party workers, and a bit of luck. In the last election not one of those was present. So they lost. And they deserved to loose.

You know the election results are not going to be good when some of your usual hard working Party volunteers decide not to come out and help this time around or some of your solid, dependable base decides not to vote instead of voting for some other Party.

It also does not help when you have a leader like Scheer, who mused in the House that perhaps people with dual citizenship should not hold positions like G-G. Especially when just about every Canadian citizen not born in Canada has dual citizenship. That includes Scheer who was as dual US citizen at the time and still is to my knowledge. Did not go over very well as one could imagine, in those vote rich urban areas with large numbers of immigrant voters. That is what I mean by basic smarts....totally absent.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Emjay85 said:


> That's ridiculous


This is typical Liberal mentality .... 
Ask you son if he want to pay extra taxes so sag's son "keep the $1500 a month you get from the child benefit "


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm not a fan of the Liberals. They make a lot of promises and platitudes, but there's very little substance to any of it. I don't feel they've done much of anything to help regular people (except if they have kids). That said, I'm actually more afraid of what the Conservatives or NDP might do if they get in power. Better the devil you know...


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

nathan79 said:


> That said, I'm actually more afraid of what the Conservatives or NDP might do if they get in power. Better the devil you know...


With your approach there will be still Communist Party of Soviet Union and USSR


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Liberals announce an additional $15 billion in public transit infrastructure spending.

They will spend $6 billion starting this year and $3 billion a year annually on improving public transit.

The city mayors are praising the Trudeau government announcement.

The Liberals are setting up a budget platform in anticipation of an election soon.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-transit-fund-1.5908346


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> The Liberals announce an additional $15 billion in public transit infrastructure spending.
> 
> They will spend $6 billion starting this year and $3 billion a year annually on improving public transit.
> 
> ...


And who gonna pay for it?! I bet not you or your son

Liberals already spent so much money on public transit and still ... our public transit is a joke comparing to Europe or other normal counties..
Have you even been to Europe?! Can you compare Toronto retarded public transport, esp subway, GO transit or via rail to even reatively poor European countries like Czech republic .... I;m not even talking about Spain , France or Germany.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> The Liberals announce an additional $15 billion in public transit infrastructure spending.
> 
> They will spend $6 billion starting this year and $3 billion a year annually on improving public transit.
> 
> ...


Fantastic news. You'd have to be an awfully cranky person, or some kind of crackpot, to find fault with a government delivering on something that every mayor in the country has been asking for.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Guess we'll see if they deliver. They've made a lot of big promises in the past. Anyone remember the National Housing Strategy? What a failure that was... https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-shortchanged-national-housing-fund-cmhc-1.5714660


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

nathan79 said:


> Guess we'll see if they deliver. They've made a lot of big promises in the past. Anyone remember the National Housing Strategy? What a failure that was... https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-shortchanged-national-housing-fund-cmhc-1.5714660


You will see that nothing will be delivered and all money gonna go to JT's buddies


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Fantastic news.


For you if JT has a good morning crap - it will be a Fantastic news.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

james4beach said:


> Fantastic news. You'd have to be an awfully cranky person, or some kind of crackpot, to find fault with a government delivering on something that every mayor in the country has been asking for.


The $3 billion a year is from 2026. That's two elections away. They might as well promise unicorns.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Whenever I hear transport investment, I think of Trudeau giving more money to SNC/BBD without delivering much. I am hoping the voters in Ontario will punish Trudope for his many missteps, including his massive vaccine screwup. And his continual misjudgement of China. If they cannot see that with the help of the opposition, then we have no hope for rational spending anytime soo.

Secret budgets, secret deals, silent finance minister.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

sags said:


> Pierre Poilievere was shuffled out of the finance critic job.
> 
> I don't think his "throw open the economy and hope for the best" theory was helping the Conservative's credibility factor.
> 
> Good move by O'Toole.


In reality, Poilievre is recognized by O'Toole as such a vicious watchdog, that he decided that he could better serve as the party's critic for Jobs and Industry. This is in response to the pandemic as O'Toole pushes for a stronger focus on jobs and on rebuilding the economy that Trudeau has laid to ruin as he's been paying more attention to his green agenda and printing money than getting people back to work.

ltr


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

An effective opposition is an essential part of our system.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> In reality, Poilievre is recognized by O'Toole as such a vicious watchdog, that he decided that he could better serve as the party's critic for Jobs and Industry. This is in response to the pandemic as O'Toole pushes for a stronger focus on jobs and on rebuilding the economy that Trudeau has laid to ruin as he's been paying more attention to his green agenda and printing money than getting people back to work.
> 
> ltr


We'll see, I think Pierre is an outstanding political showman. I really hope they put him to good use.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland will be happy she no longer has to listen to Poilievere.

He will be addressing his counter part in the Liberal Party......who is...... ?

After Trudeau announced the public transit spending, Andrew Scheer popped up as the Conservative critic for Infrastructure or whatever......who knew ?

These are low profile jobs even for the government.......let alone the opposition.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> After Trudeau announced the public transit spending, Andrew Scheer popped up as the Conservative critic for Infrastructure or whatever......who knew ?


Ah yes the secret American. Still has his US citizenship too. He gave up on renouncing it... never intended to, obviously.


----------



## CrazyEights (May 17, 2016)

sags said:


> The Liberals announce an additional $15 billion in public transit infrastructure spending.
> 
> They will spend $6 billion starting this year and $3 billion a year annually on improving public transit.
> 
> ...


i think you are right. Seems like more and more the language from all leaders is that they anticipating an election to becoming up. My money is in June


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The government received a lot of input from various groups on the upcoming budget.

_Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland has been getting advice from all sides — the 145 recommendations from the Commons finance committee, the solid endorsement Canada received this week from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) for its response to the COVID-19 pandemic, and the input she's been getting during her own pre-budget consultations. _

It looks like the prevailing wisdom is to continue to support the economy and spend to ensure the economy is on a solid footing after the pandemic has passed.

_"I think we've got no choice but to spend and to basically target the spending into areas that's going to certainly make a difference in terms of growth of the economy," says Wayne Easter, the Liberal MP who chairs the committee.

"I think that's essential."

NDP finance critic Peter Julian agrees that Freeland needs to use this budget, the first in two years, to help Canadians laid flat by the pandemic.

"Canadians are struggling to make ends meet. Small businesses are closing. Families are trying to find the wherewithal to put food on the table, keep a roof over their head," Julian said. "And so the issue is, not whether to invest or not. The issue is how do we do that?"_

On Friday, PM Trudeau announced extensions for the CRB support programs.

This followed a previous announcement of long term spending on public transit.



https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thehouse/chrystia-freeland-advice-federal-budget-1.5920654


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> The government received a lot of input from various groups on the upcoming budget.


This is something the Trudeau government has done very well. It has never been a heavy-handed government, but rather one which seeks input from others (plus different voices in their own party) before making decisions.

This is in stark contrast to for example Harper, who took an authoritarian style to government (very top down), shut down other voices and didn't even let people in his own party speak. Also on the opposite end of the spectrum would be Trump and the Republicans. If they aren't in power and dictating policy, then they are obstructing the operation of government. It's either their way, or they will STOP government from doing anything.

What Trudeau & team are doing is how government is supposed to work.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> but rather one which seeks input from others (plus different voices in their own party) before making decisions.


 maybe seeks input, but then do whatever he wants and fire who doesn't agree with him... typical dictator


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

What kind of ftard would call an election while his government thinks we're going to 20k Covid cases/day. I guess he'll make voters pay 2k & spend 3 days in a roach motel after voting as well?

Win at all costs who cares if old voters die right?

He should step down.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eder said:


> What kind of ftard would call an election while his government thinks we're going to 20k Covid cases/day.


Imagine the ftard down south, King Trump, who sabotaged voting by mail to manipulate the election in his favour, forcing elderly Americans to drag themselves to the voting booth.

A true scumbag! Also got hundreds of thousands of Americans killed, unnecessarily. Hope Trump never comes back


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Imagine the ftard down south, King Trump, who sabotaged voting by mail to manipulate the election in his favour, forcing elderly Americans to drag themselves to the voting booth.
> 
> A true scumbag! Also got hundreds of thousands of Americans killed, unnecessarily. Hope Trump never comes back


Voting by mail shouldn't be allowed! Even in cabada we cannot vote by mail...Are you sure that voters voted by mail and not their relatives or friends or postal workers?!
I'd never trust racist and anti-semitic The Canadian Union of Postal Workers








By delivering Toronto newspaper Canada Post is ‘distributing hate propaganda’: Human rights complaint


Human rights lawyer Richard Warman said that Your Ward News contains material that is misogynistic, racist, anti-Jewish, anti-Muslim, and homophobic




nationalpost.com




I hope Trump wins next election, as Americans will be disappointed by Biden very soon


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If the opposition supports the budget there will be no need for an election.

After all, it is the opposition who are demanding a budget during a pandemic.

There have been Provincial elections so it can be done safely.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I don't want to see Trump again, Biden is a decent placeholder. But my comment was about our ftard PM in Canada. It is unconscionable to force restaurants and stores etc to go bankrupt in an effort to flatten the curve but no qualms about calling a snap election where we can trade Covid variants.

I guess like BLM riots, random elections is safe for all right? Must be Horgans cousin.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

There's only going to be an election if opposition parties force it to happen.



gibor365 said:


> Even in cabada we cannot vote by mail...Are you sure that voters voted by mail and not their relatives or friends or postal workers?!


It's possible to vote by mail. So good news @Eder even if there is an election, you won't have to put yourself in harm's way.

Problem solved!









Apply to vote by mail – Elections Canada


Apply to vote by mail.



www.elections.ca


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Eder said:


> I don't want to see Trump again, Biden is a decent placeholder. But my comment was about our ftard PM in Canada. It is unconscionable to force restaurants and stores etc to go bankrupt in an effort to flatten the curve but no qualms about calling a snap election where we can trade Covid variants.
> 
> I guess like BLM riots, random elections is safe for all right? Must be Horgans cousin.


I don’t think Trudeau is responsible for restaurant closures. Seems to be a provincial matter.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> It's possible to vote by mail. So good news @Eder even if there is an election, you won't have to put yourself in harm's way.
> 
> Problem solved!
> 
> ...


I personally don't like this idea at all... and if voting by mail is allowed, why not to do elections on line , for example from CRA website .... imho, it would be less frauds than by mail


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> I personally don't like this idea at all... and if voting by mail is allowed, why not to do elections on line , for example from CRA website .... imho, it would be less frauds than by mail


I don't think we should allow vote by mail either.

What's to stop someone from logging in as you and voting for you?
Or someone forcing you to log in and vote the way they want.

If it isn't a secret ballot, there is the threat of intimidation


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Sure....people would risk going to prison for 20 years to kidnap people and force them to go online to cast one vote for a specific MP.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Sure....people would risk going to prison for 20 years to kidnap people and force them to go online to cast one vote for a specific MP.


Have you ever heard "In this house we vote X", I can imagine "vote parties" where everyone votes together, and if you don't participate, the group will ostracize you.
Care to explain how you'd protect against that.

I'm sorry, secret ballot is essential for a healthy democracy.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> I don't think we should allow vote by mail either.
> 
> What's to stop someone from logging in as you and voting for you?
> Or someone forcing you to log in and vote the way they want.
> ...


"What's to stop someone from logging in as you " into your bank account or CRA website?!
My point was that voting by mail is much worse than online...
btw, some countries are voting online





Electronic voting by country - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




.

btw, do you really think that fraud cannot happen when no online voting is allowed?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> "What's to stop someone from logging in as you " into your bank account or CRA website?!
> My point was that voting by mail is much worse than online...
> btw, some countries are voting online
> 
> ...


Of course not.
However I think that since it is impossible to have a secure free vote online, I don't think we should implement it.


I think it's important to note that from your article, it looks like it's pretty much unanimous that online voting is a bad idea.
"Committee reports and analysis from Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, Ontario and British Columbia have all recommended against provincial Internet voting. A federal committee has recommended against national Internet voting."


Really the incentive for online voting is that the left leaning politicians think they'll pick up more of the left leaning youth vote.
Jagmeet Signh isn't making tiktok videos with rappers because he wants the retiree vote.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

I don't tell that online voting is a great idea, but on other hand , voting by mail is even worse!
however, I think that municipal elections can be done online, in last Mississauga elections only _27 per cent of registered voters _voted.... !


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> I don't tell that online voting is a great idea, but on other hand , voting by mail is even worse!
> however, I think that municipal elections can be done online, in last Mississauga elections only _27 per cent of registered voters _voted.... !


Why? 
i want my municipal government to be elected. Really they have the most control over my day to day life.

The debate isn't is voting by mail or online worse, it's if adding a new less secure voting option is a good idea.

Secondly, why is voter turnout important?
Really, you have weeks to show up and vote, the lines are almost always short and reasonable.

If you can't be bothered to take 30 minutes every few years, you likely aren't too thoughtful or concerned on the issues, and we're better off without your vote.
I'd rather have an informed and motivated 27% choose the government, than the 73% that can't be bothered, and is likely influenced by some silly slogan or shortsighted election promise.


I can accept that voter turnout is a proxy for citizen engagement, but if you change the way that voting happens, it doesn't change actual engagement, only the measure.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

MrMatt said:


> Why?
> 
> Really, you have weeks to show up and vote, the lines are almost always short and reasonable.
> 
> ...


You took the words right out of my mind. Get up, go to the polling station, prove who you are, and check a box. At least we know who you are and that you care enough to give that small effort. There are enough idiots voting as it is, we don't need more who care even less. I've always jokingly supported the idea of having to pass a test before voting.

ltr


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> You took the words right out of my mind. Get up, go to the polling station, prove who you are, and check a box. At least we know who you are and that you care enough to give that small effort. There are enough idiots voting as it is, we don't need more who care even less. I've always jokingly supported the idea of having to pass a test before voting.
> 
> ltr


I would support a test, however I don't trust anyone to write a fair test.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> ... What's to stop someone from logging in as you and voting for you?


Hard to say without details but presumably the same methods that find people who try to vote twice could be built into the implementation.

'Course I vote in all elections so if it's someone who doesn't then there may be more room for fraud.




MrMatt said:


> ... Or someone forcing you to log in and vote the way they want.


Not sure how many would put up with that.




MrMatt said:


> ... Have you ever heard "In this house we vote X" ...


Never heard it in my family or friends talking about their kids getting read to vote for the first time etc. How often does it happen in Canada?


Cheers


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Why not use the ProxyVote system? Seems to work for corporations


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

kcowan said:


> Why not use the ProxyVote system? Seems to work for corporations


Because it isn't a secret ballot.

Many workplaces are openly hostile to opposing politics, if you are seen supporting the wrong party, they'll discriminate against you.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

We voted by phone In our last municipal election. Don’t recall the security measures involved though.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Just looked at Historical GDP numbers, 

GDP, Per Capita GDP - US Dollars







Basic Data Selection - amaWebClient


United Nations Statistics Divisin - Basic Data Selection




unstats.un.org







Last 10 years Canadian Per Capita GDP is down almost 2%, for comparison, in US up 34% and Israel up 45%.
The highest number Canada was in 2012/2013 during last Harper years....since then it dropped (thanks to JT) 11%!



Canada2010US$47,361Canada2011US$51,907Canada2012US$52,365Canada2013US$52,334Canada2014US$50,570Canada2015US$43,194Canada2016US$42,004Canada2017US$44,907Canada2018US$46,444Canada2019US$46,550


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

We really don't have much industry in Canada. We mainly have energy sector which has been weak for a long time, and residential real estate which doesn't produce anything of value. So our GDP is mainly dependent on flipping million dollar houses and bringing in more immigrants for consumer spending (and to continue pumping housing).


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

nathan79 said:


> We really don't have much industry in Canada. We mainly have energy sector which has been weak for a long time, and residential real estate which doesn't produce anything of value. So our GDP is mainly dependent on flipping million dollar houses and bringing in more immigrants for consumer spending (and to continue pumping housing).


So, you suggest it's kinds financial pyramid ?!


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

nathan79 said:


> We really don't have much industry in Canada. We mainly have energy sector which has been weak for a long time, and residential real estate which doesn't produce anything of value. So our GDP is mainly dependent on flipping million dollar houses and bringing in more immigrants for consumer spending (and to continue pumping housing).


I remember hearing about this. Real estate agent commissions, legal fees and land transfer taxes make up almost 2% of GDP. While it’s relatively small, it’s a big number considering how little work agents have been doing the last few years. Houses generally sell themselves. I don’t need a agent to find me xx house, with xx bedrooms, near good schools etc etc. The only value I see they offer is taking away the pain of negotiation and sign backs. I’m surprised the alternative disrupters haven’t taken over this industry.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/real-estate-fees-home-sales-1.4226630


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Trudeau's anti business (excepting Quebec) policies has our GDP going backwards...its like they don't know where tax money comes from.

We need to encourage more mining, forestry, energy, agriculture and infra structure business rather than the enviro posing we are currently doing. We need 10 more Site C dams and much more nuclear.These are the things that raise our standard of living.

We've lost our way...someone needs to step up & take charge.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Eder said:


> Trudeau's anti business (excepting Quebec) policies has our GDP going backwards...its like they don't know where tax money comes from.
> 
> We need to encourage more mining, forestry, energy, agriculture and infra structure business rather than the enviro posing we are currently doing. We need 10 more Site C dams and much more nuclear.These are the things that raise our standard of living.
> 
> We've lost our way...someone needs to step up & take charge.


Exactly! Esp I agree with last statement "We've lost our way...someone needs to step up & take charge" ... 
We also need IT ... Have you ever seen TSX IT index?! It's a joke! We got only 10 IT companies and 4 of them take 75% of the index LOL ... It would be OK for countries like Mongolia , but would be bad even for Kazakhstan ... and we're talking about G7 country LOL...
"We really don't have much industry in Canada " , But probably we're number 1 in carbon taxes  .


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eder said:


> We need to encourage more mining, forestry, energy,


Too bad Harper killed a lot of these industries during his tenure. When Harper first became the PM, the energy sector was roaring. The Liberals handed it to him in great shape. The Liberals (Chretien then Paul Martin) oversaw the greatest bullish expansion in oil & gas in a generation!

Then came Harper. Over the years he was in power (see chart below), Harper and the Conservatives absolutely destroyed the energy sector.

It's absolutely TERRIBLE what Harper & the Cons did to the once thriving oil & gas sector. *Albertans should be steaming mad* over what the Conservatives did.

And then the Conservatives have the balls to try brainwashing their voter base by claiming the Liberals did this, even though Harper was in power through the whole wipeout! Do they think their voters are stupid or something?


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Too bad Harper killed a lot of these industries during his tenure. When Harper first became the PM, the energy sector was roaring. The Liberals handed it to him in great shape. The Liberals (Chretien then Paul Martin) oversaw the greatest bullish expansion in oil & gas in a generation!
> 
> Then came Harper. Over the years he was in power (see chart below), Harper and the Conservatives absolutely destroyed the energy sector.
> 
> ...


"Trudeau's children" put everything upside down LOL... it's Trudeau who killed energy and AB when 50% of Albertans want to separate from Trudeau Canada ....
Just curious how long Liberals gonna blame everything on Harper.....reminds me Communists who for decades blamed everything on Tsar  .
And what the point to post XEG chart, just look at GDP numbers!


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> And what the point to post XEG chart, just look at GDP numbers!


Because the prices don't lie, unlike the Conservatives and their made up stories. You can see the reality here in the prices... the energy sector declined while Harper was in power. He had nearly 10 years to do whatever he wanted.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Because the prices don't lie, unlike the Conservatives and their made up stories. You can see the reality here in the prices... the energy sector declined while Harper was in power. He had nearly 10 years to do whatever he wanted.


Sorry, but stock prices aren't relevant....GDP numbers are....
You cannot blame US government that NASDAQ crushed several times in last 25 years...
You also cannot blame government if OPEC fighting with Russia


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Because the prices don't lie, unlike the Conservatives and their made up stories. You can see the reality here in the prices... the energy sector declined while Harper was in power. He had nearly 10 years to do whatever he wanted.


The energy sector didn't decline


james4beach said:


> Too bad Harper killed a lot of these industries during his tenure. When Harper first became the PM, the energy sector was roaring. The Liberals handed it to him in great shape. The Liberals (Chretien then Paul Martin) oversaw the greatest bullish expansion in oil & gas in a generation!
> 
> Then came Harper. Over the years he was in power (see chart below), Harper and the Conservatives absolutely destroyed the energy sector.
> 
> ...


You realize that Harper doesn't actually set the price of oil.









I'd actually suggest that the energy sector did quite well, despite the declining price of oil.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Conservatives can try to change the narrative on Harper's government, but facts don't lie.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

sags said:


> Conservatives can try to change the narrative on Harper's government, but facts don't lie.


I hate politician of all stripes. But we've had 5 year and 111 days of Trudeau who incapable to telling the truth.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> You realize that Harper doesn't actually set the price of oil


You seem to have a short memory, but as soon as Trudeau was elected, the Conservative propaganda machine (I think you know them well) started blaming Trudeau for the industrial slowdown in Alberta.

Not once did Conservatives say, yeah well this is a global energy slowdown which affects all multinationals in all countries. It's not a Canada-specific thing and it clearly isn't Trudeau causing the decline in the oil patch. And although we love Americans, they are directly competing with us and driving us out of business.

Instead, the Conservatives, Alberta politicians, and the oil & gas corporate lobbyists blamed Trudeau for the business environment.

You can't give Harper a pass and simultaneously try to stick Trudeau with the bad results. This is the kind of ridiculous propaganda the right wing has been putting out ever since Trudeau got into office. It works on people, and this is how Conservatives manipulated Albertans.

Going forward, every time someone on this board blames Trudeau for the oil & gas sector, I will post that chart again and remind you how Harper destroyed Alberta.

PS, what are you going to do if the energy sector rebounds and enters a new bull market under Trudeau? Let me guess... he's only responsible on the way down, right?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> It's not a Canada-specific thing and it clearly isn't Trudeau causing the decline in the oil patch.
> 
> Instead, the Conservatives, Alberta politicians, and the oil & gas corporate lobbyists blamed Trudeau for the business environment.


I don't credit or blame politicians for things outside their control.

Trudeau has explicitly stated he wants to phase out the oil sands, and has worked to stop and slow the development of O&G industry. The results from that are his fault.
The lower prices of oil are not his fault.
But to pretend that his anti-oil stance isn't a negative is dishonest. When you say you want to "phase out" an entire industry, that sure as hell has an impact on the "business environment".

I don't blame Trudeau for pipeline cancellations under Biden, that wasn't his fault. 

I don't blame Trudeau for COVID related slowdowns, again a lot of that are trade offs.
I wont' credit Trudeau for the post COVID recovery either.

However when there is a specific policy position that a politician takes, that's when I give them credit or blame.

I understand you see everything through a partisan lens, but really normal people don't see the world that way.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> I understand you see everything through a partisan lens, but really normal people don't see the world that way.


I understand that you see everything through a partisan lens. Normally people don't do this.

But I understand this is your style.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

afulldeck said:


> I hate politician of all stripes. But we've had 5 year and 111 days of Trudeau who incapable to telling the truth.


Why do you "hate" politicians?

It may not be healthy to hate the people who you elect to represent you. In a democracy, we (collectively) elect our representatives.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I wouldn't describe a transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy an anti-oil stance.

The prudent option is use remaining dollars from fossil fuels to pay for the next energy revolution.

The Trudeau government saved a pipeline that private business wasn't interested in.

Private business didn't believe the pipeline would be viable long enough to return their capital costs.

I doubt the government will become involved in such projects in the future.

P.S. Except maybe Jason Kenney pissing away $1.5 billion Alberta tax dollars on a dead pipeline.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Why weren't the Harper Conservatives tougher on America, while the US directly competed with and absolutely destroyed the Alberta economy?

@MrMatt come on, this is your job isn't it? Stand up for the Conservatives. Tell us why they didn't protect Alberta from the American competitors.

The Conservatives (extreme crooks by the way) were getting tons of money from the oil and gas industry. They basically _worked for_ O&G and wrote policies they were told to. So what did Albertans get for that? Sure they gave tax cuts to the wealthiest Albertans, the O&G executives, but those aren't average Albertans.

*What did the Conservatives do for the average Albertan?*

Did the Conservatives put any public money to buy any failing projects?

When Harper cracked down hard on environmentalists and kept promoting the "oil sands", did this help Alberta's product and the image in global markets? Do you think Albertans benefited from Harper's old fashioned, out-of-date promotion of oil sands to the rest of the world?

When America and the rest of the world was looking at emission regulations, and Harper refused to... do you think the Conservatives were helping Alberta's future?


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

James........Harper is still puling the strings in Alberta and helped lead Kenney to the edge of the political cliff. It appears that Harper is chock full of bad advice.

If a vote was held today, NDP's Rachel Notely would decimate the UCP party.









The fall of Jason Kenney


The Alberta premier's chest-thumping style isn't winning him many friends these days, writes journalist Bruce Livesey.




www.nationalobserver.com













EXCLUSIVE: New poll shows UCP collapse as NDP & Wildrose surge


The Mainstreet poll puts UCP support lower than Jim Prentice's PCs in 2015.




westernstandardonline.com


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> James........Harper is still puling the strings in Alberta and helped lead Kenney to the edge of the political cliff.


Disgusting. Haven't Albertans had enough of these Conservatives yet?

Destroyed their economy... destroyed their pensions and rainy day fund... failed to protect the environment... refuse to charge O&G royalties... just handing over all the resources and money to big corporations.

Contrast to a place like Norway, which did the right thing and nationalized energy companies. They kept a lot of the O&G profits for the people, had better environmental protections and didn't just let big companies and wealthy foreigners run away with their money.

When will Albertans wake up that the Conservatives/UCP are the worst thing that ever happened to them?


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

After the next budget, Canadians are going to be saying..........


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Disgusting. Haven't Albertans had enough of these Conservatives yet?
> 
> Destroyed their economy... destroyed their pensions and rainy day fund... failed to protect the environment... refuse to charge O&G royalties... just handing over all the resources and money to big corporations.
> 
> ...


How you put everything upset-down! Albertans had enough of these Liberals! After last election independent survey showed that half province want to separate from Trudeau Canada.... but you obviously know better than Albertans , hence you have XEG chart LOL
To say that Alberta would be better with Liberals, it's like to say that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania would be better with USSR


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> How you put everything upset-down! Albertans had enough of these Liberals! After last election independent survey showed that half province want to separate from Trudeau Canada.... but you obviously know better than Albertans , hence you have XEG chart LOL


It's not my fault that (many) Albertans are manipulated and deceived by Conservative propaganda efforts.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> It's not my fault that (many) Albertans are manipulated and deceived by Conservative propaganda efforts.


Yeah, right LOL ... Your opinion is so childish ! maybe it's you (and many Canadians) who is "_manipulated and deceived by_" Liberal propaganda ?!
There is no bigger evil for Canada and especially Alberta than Trudeau


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> Yeah, right LOL ... Your opinion is so childish !


You're the guy who thinks Trump won the last election right?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Why weren't the Harper Conservatives tougher on America, while the US directly competed with and absolutely destroyed the Alberta economy?
> 
> @MrMatt come on, this is your job isn't it? Stand up for the Conservatives. Tell us why they didn't protect Alberta from the American competitors.


Actually it's not my job.

It's the CPC's job to defend themselves, not mine.

I focus on actions and policies, I don't care which label is on them.
If it's a good, I'll support it, if it's bad I won't.

As I've said before I've voted for every major political party in Canada.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I think for any that care it was Notley & Trudeau that ensured severe recession in Alberta. Thankfully there are green shoots sprouting in spite of a hostile federal government.
Just like this virus, soon Mr Socks will just disappear. It may not benefit me but my kids, grand kids & great grand kid will benefit from his absence.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eder said:


> I think for any that care it was Notley & Trudeau that ensured severe recession in Alberta. Thankfully there are green shoots sprouting in spite of a hostile federal government.
> Just like this virus, soon Mr Socks will just disappear. It may not benefit me but my kids, grand kids & great grand kid will benefit from his absence.


Your kids and grand kids are going to wish that some smart politician had tried to diversify Alberta's economy, instead of digging in their heels and making everything about O&G.

Harper helped destroy Alberta by making everything about oil, and taking his orders from lobbyists. Harper rejected environmental regulations and let the oil & gas industry go on a rampage throughout the province... younger Albertans are going to suffer the consequences of this awful policy for a long time.

Since then, Kenney/UCP is ruining your province before your eyes.

Harper and Kenney have the same basic problem: they are agents of the O&G corporations. They represent companies, NOT YOU or your kids.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Trudeau and Notley have destroyed Alberta. Albertans understand it very well, this is why last election they won in all ridings except one (because of idiot Mad Max) and Libs got 0...., but James doesn't


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

james4beach said:


> Why do you "hate" politicians?
> 
> It may not be healthy to hate the people who you elect to represent you. In a democracy, we (collectively) elect our representatives.


Perhaps, but it is extremely unhealthy to believe them.....


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Alberta's debt, and budget, looks absolutely horrible. New record debt levels in Alberta.

It's the usual mismanagement by modern conservatives (and UCP), who have no common sense. Get these idiots out of power! Kenney is a clueless bozo.









How Alberta went from Klein's 'paid in full' years to record debt in 2021 budget


When a cowboy hat-wearing Ralph Klein took to the steps of McDougall Centre on July 12, 2004, to declare the eradication of Alberta’s debt, he likely didn’t…




calgaryherald.com





The only province without sales tax. Refusing to raise taxes on the rich, even when filthy rich people are rolling in oil money. No rainy day fund, even after multiple booms in oil.

Spending like drunken sailors, never planning for the future. Don't let these Conservatives anywhere near federal budget. They will ruin the country, just like they are ruining Alberta.

But what do you expect from corrupt politicians who work for the oil companies. Kenney never intended to help YOU.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Alberta's debt, and budget, looks absolutely horrible. New record debt levels in Alberta.


Trudeau's Liberals and communist Notley have destroyed Alberta! No wonder half of Albertans want separation from those idiots!


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> Trudeau's Liberals and communist Notley have destroyed Alberta! No wonder half of Albertans want separation from those idiots!


Albertans need to separate from corrupt, clueless Conservatives. Kenney has racked up a record high debt. He has no plans on how to solve this.

And next time there's an oil boom, Alberta better get smarter and actually TAX all the big companies and rich people who make a killing off draining the province's resources dry.

Alberta should also nationalize the entire oil & gas industry. That way the province can actually keep some of these profits, for once.

The big companies (and foreign owners) drain the resources from the province, and leave the province with record high debts! The public pays all the penalties, while the rich are laughing and walking away with the money.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Even before Covid 19 after Wynne's Liberal government destroying Ontario for many years , by 2019, the Ontario Chamber of Commerce reported that Ontario's debt was over $348 billion! In 2019–20, *interest* on the *debt* will cost about $13.3 billion! 
In 2012, the _Provincial Solvency and Federal Obligations_ study found that Ontario had a 42.9% probability of defaulting on its debt obligations in the following 10-20 years (higher than any other province) and a 79.3% probability of defaulting in the following 30 years...
This province is doomed


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Alberta should also nationalize the entire oil & gas industry. That way the province can actually keep some of these profits, for once.


The good thing that Albertans not communists like you .

No even 1 riding in Alberta voted for corrupted Liberals last election (and 100% SK ridings voted Cons)

_The only province without sales tax. Refusing to raise taxes on the rich - _the problem that for Liberals and communists everyone who making some money called "rich"


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> The good thing that Albertans not communists like you .
> 
> No even 1 riding in Alberta voted for corrupted Liberals last election (and 100% SK ridings voted Cons)


Funny I always thought you were a communist.

Alberta has to nationalize the oil & gas companies. I wonder if they will ever learn, or just keep letting this happen to them, over and over again.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Funny I always thought you were a communist.
> 
> Alberta has to nationalize the oil & gas companies. I wonder if they will ever learn, or just keep letting this happen to them, over and over again.


You are so funny! I bet , you don't know what communism means.... you are typical commie as all your ideas are some communist utopia


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Potato-head Kenney needs to take some courses, to learn basics of economics.

At this rate he will bankrupt the province in a year or two.

Meanwhile, Conservatives in Manitoba slashed away at the health care system immediately before the pandemic hit. These Conservatives harm every province they touch.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Alberta should separate , introduce flat tax (like did Baltic countries after separation from Soviet Union), be neutral like Switzerland ... a lot of smart Canadians are gonna move there


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_A May 2020 poll by Northwest Research for the Western Standard found that 41% of respondents would support independence in a referendum, 50% would be opposed, and 9% weren't sure. Removing undecideds, 45% would support and 55% would be opposed. Respondents were also asked if they would support a referendum if "the federal government is unwilling to negotiate with Alberta on a new constitutional arrangement", 48% said yes, while 52% said no. 
Per Statistics Canada, in 2015 Alberta paid $27 billion more into the federal treasury than it received back in services 
A February 2019 poll from Angus Reid found 50% of Albertans would support secession from Canada _

Corrupted Trudeau's Liberals are threatening Canada as a independent country _The Wexit movement gained traction in October 2019, shortly after the 2019 Canadian federal election, when the Liberal Party under Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was re-elected to form government. _


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Alberta's debt, and budget, looks absolutely horrible. New record debt levels in Alberta.
> 
> It's the usual mismanagement by modern conservatives (and UCP), who have no common sense. Get these idiots out of power! Kenney is a clueless bozo.


I know, the Albertas per capita debt is over half of the Federal governments per capita debt.

I agree that the Alberta government is mismanaging their finances.

But if you think that Alberta is too indebted, and being mismanaged, you have to agree that the Federal government is WAY too indebted and mismanaged as well.

Federal debt is growing at an exponential rate, and there is very little alarm being raised.

Albertas debt problem is bad, but the feds debt problem is much worse.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

A key difference is that Alberta may have trouble servicing their debt in the future, while Canada will never have a similar problem.

Servicing their debt already requires more than either corporate tax revenues or oil royalties bring into the Alberta treasury. They are likely going to have to raise taxes to service their debt.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Jason Kenney's popularity plummeted from 61% when elected to 26% today. He is the lowest rated Premier in Canada. The NDP are polling 20% points higher than Conservatives in Alberta.

Manitoba's Brian Pallister isn't doing much better.

Kenney continues to make some really bad decisions, the latest being issuing leases to strip coal mine the Rocky Mountains. Ewwww..........not good.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> A key difference is that Alberta may have trouble servicing their debt in the future, while Canada will never have a similar problem.
> 
> Servicing their debt already requires more than either corporate tax revenues or oil royalties bring into the Alberta treasury. They are likely going to have to raise taxes to service their debt.


I the federal government didn't seize billions of dollars from Alberta, they'd be fine.

The only reason that Alberta and Ontario have fiscal pressure, is because the Federal government keeps taking their money, and buying votes with it.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

What is the intellectual process involved in making a decision to lop the top of the majestic Rocky Mountains and perhaps contaminate the fresh water while doing so ........to the horror of Albertans ?

I am thinking Kenney is so desperate he is panicking.....or he is still taking advice from Harper.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> What is the intellectual process involved in making a decision to lop the top of the majestic Rocky Mountains and perhaps contaminate the fresh water while doing so ........to the horror of Albertans ?
> 
> I am thinking Kenney is so desperate he is panicking.....or he is still taking advice from Harper.


What are you talking about?

Also he should take advice from Harper.
Harper is an incredibly intelligent and capable person, and anyone should be glad to take advice from him.
Just as anyone should be glad to take political survival advice from Trudeau.

You have to admit that at that level, the various senior politicians ALL have some expertise that is incredibly valuable.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Jason Kenney is the proverbial tortoise, overturned onto it's shell and baking in the sun while it's legs flail away. Kenney will need Trudeau to come along and flip him over.......again.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Jason Kenney is the proverbial tortoise, overturned onto it's shell and baking in the sun while it's legs flail away. Kenney will need Trudeau to come along and flip him over.......again.





sags said:


> Jason Kenney is the proverbial tortoise, overturned onto it's shell and baking in the sun while it's legs flail away. Kenney will need Trudeau to come along and flip him over.......again.


I think you don't understand how horribly unpopular Trudeau and the Trudeau brand is in Alberta.
Trudeau won't do anything to help them, there are no votes for him there.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Trudeau's poll numbers took a hit for his handling of COVID, but the Liberals stayed about the same.

O'Toole also fell in the polls and the Conservatives failed to gain on the Liberals.

The NDP picked up a little support from both the Liberals and Conservatives.

So, nothing much is changing politically.

A Liberal minority government propped up by the NDP, is the most likely outcome.

Thus far it is a cosy arrangement which has had a positive impact on governance.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I suspect the Conservatives will look for a new leader after a third defeat in the next election.

O"Toole isn't resonating with Canadians. He is waiting on the wrong corner to catch the bus.

Maybe Garth Turner or Rex Murphy will run for the leadership.

Imagine Rex Murphy in a debate with Trudeau, and what fun that would be.

_Mr. Trudeau.....I must ask you to elucidate more expressively as I find your language far too copious for my mental comprehension._


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> Imagine Rex Murphy in a debate with Trudeau, and what fun that would be.


That would be hilarious! And I would love to see some 'old fashioned' conservatives for once.

People who are more like the Progressive Conservatives, not these imposters, Reform/Alliance who are trying to Americanize the Canadian right wing. I have a lot more trouble with their American style than their right-leaning politics.

The American right (Republicans) are complete loony toons now... absolute lunatics, anti-democratic, anti-government, anti western values. A party of Deplorables.

Bring back a solid PC candidate and I might even vote for them. In fact I'll bet that if the conservatives return to this kind of modern, progressive, *secular, non-socially-conservatism* that they can get MUCH more votes from younger Canadians.

I think that Canadian conservatives pre-2000 (before the Reform/Alliance takeover and Harper) had the right idea. I'd love to see this come back.

The "Republican" style of Conservatives that Harper & team love is gut wrenching, and makes me ... and most other young Canadians ... want to puke.

If Conservatives have any sense, they will purge the party of the Reform/Alliance/Harper menace and bring their party back to what "conservatism" in Canada used to be. Now is the time, before their party becomes totally irrelevant.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Idea of nationalization oil


sags said:


> I suspect the Conservatives will look for a new leader after a third defeat in the next election.


I suspect after 3rd Trudeau's "win" Canada is gonna start break apart


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_The "Republican" style of Conservatives - _it's much better than communist style of Liberals


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> That would be hilarious! And I would love to see some 'old fashioned' conservatives for once.
> 
> People who are more like the Progressive Conservatives, not these imposters, Reform/Alliance who are trying to Americanize the Canadian right wing. I have a lot more trouble with their American style than their right-leaning politics.
> 
> ...


You say that, but Harper was a secular, non-socially conservative politician, and you still revile him as some US style Republican.

There is a BIG difference between living with a set of values and forcing others to conform to those values, it's something that the loony left doesn't seem to understand.

Having values, and principles gives a good foundation and way to live life. 
It's not even a religious thing, or a conservative thing. 

But the valueless unprincipled nature of "whatever wins votes" is inherently self contradictory and disasterous, look at California as it collapses.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> But the valueless unprincipled nature of "whatever wins votes" is inherently self contradictory and disasterous, look at California as it collapses.


Even better, look at Canada, where we have a constitution that prohibits racism and gender discrimination, yet Governments and Corporations openly proclaiming that their gender and racial discrimination is a good thing.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> You say that, but Harper was a secular, non-socially conservative politician, and you still revile him as some US style Republican.


Because he directly tried to duplicate Republican methods.

He went after a religious conservative base, very vocally too. Another example is how he pursued Bush-era American war efforts, even while the US was backing off from those.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Many people don't like the conservative version of values.

Maybe Conservatives should ask themselves why that is ?


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

sags said:


> Many people don't like the conservative version of values.
> 
> Maybe Conservatives should ask themselves why that is ?


I'll tell you why that is. Most people are short sighted and want free money, regardless if their children will have to pay for their selfishness. The Conservatives always offer a sensible fiscal platform that the weak minded who support the left don't understand. The left is basically looking for free money and good looking candidates - full stop.

ltr


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> Many people don't like the conservative version of values.
> 
> Maybe Conservatives should ask themselves why that is ?


Many people don't like the liberal version of values.
Liberals lost popular vote to Cons last elections


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Many people don't like the conservative version of values.
> 
> Maybe Conservatives should ask themselves why that is ?


Firstly Canadian "right wing" is classical Liberalism.

The reason people reject is is basically ignorance.

Because they don't have respect for society or the structures that have given them the highest standard of living in human history.
There are large numbers of people who seriously want to tear it all down and start over.

I think it's an incredibly unfortunate side effect that they really don't understand how good they have it.

It took us a long time to work towards equality, democracy, debate and dialog.

Modern leftists are working like crazy to destroy those basic values.

Yes, we have a wonderful (yet imperfect) society, lets work to preserve what's good, and make the rest better.

Leftists only see the flaws, and don't value the good.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_Leftists only see the flaws, and don't value the good. -_ Leftists don't know when this "left" gonna bring them!


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Those affected by racism aren't buying what white privilege is trying to sell them. Society isn't "great" for a lot of people.

Conservatives are on the wrong side of many issues with the majority of Canadians, and holding true to their beliefs doesn't allow them to change.

They have a systemic problem they appear unable to fix.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> It took us a long time to work towards equality, democracy, debate and dialog.
> 
> Modern leftists are working like crazy to destroy those basic values.


There is only one party in the western world which has been actively trying to kill democracy: the American Republicans.

This right wing party has been trying to corrupt the election system since September. Trump even tried to directly overthrow state elections; he's caught on tape doing it.

Trump and his henchmen have been spreading propaganda to try to overthrow the US Government, by repeatedly pushing a false story about who won and who lost. I can't think of a greater insult to western democracy. As recently as last weekend, they were still spreading propaganda to harm and overthrow the US Government.

It's the *American right wing* which is working like crazy to destroy basic western values, end democracy and freedom. They want America to be a dictatorship.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

There is only one party in the western world which has been actively trying to kill democracy - Canadian Liberals


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> Those affected by racism aren't buying what white privilege is trying to sell them. Society isn't "great" for a lot of people.
> 
> Conservatives are on the wrong side of many issues with the majority of Canadians, and holding true to their beliefs doesn't allow them to change.
> 
> They have a systemic problem they appear unable to fix.


The cattle wants free money


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Those affected by racism aren't buying what white privilege is trying to sell them. Society isn't "great" for a lot of people.


I undertstand that things aren't equally great for everyone.
However even for those people, things are better for them here, in Canada than they are in most other places in the world, or almost all of history.

Was it better to be part of group X, 50 or 100 years ago?
I think the answer is your are almost certainly better off here today than you would be anywhere else at any other time.

I think the major disconnect is that people like you can't realize how good people have it.
I'm nto saying perfect, I'm just saying better than it was before, and that should be our goal. To get better.

Do you really think the world would be better without our societal structures. I think it's laughable to suggest they would be.

I'm all with working with people to make things better, however I also don't want to make things worse. People with your mindset seem to think that things aren't very good, so we shouldn't worry about protecting the things that make it so good.

That's why people who think the police are bad, defunded them, then without law enforcement, crime is skyrocketting.
They couldn't understand that while there were problems with their police, their net contribution was positive.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Those affected by racism aren't buying what white privilege is trying to sell them. Society isn't "great" for a lot of people.
> 
> Conservatives are on the wrong side of many issues with the majority of Canadians, and holding true to their beliefs doesn't allow them to change.
> 
> They have a systemic problem they appear unable to fix.


FYI, I understand why you keep bringing up race and other groupings.

While detrimental for the group, the leadership of those groups gains power and wealth from keeping them angry, isolated, and rejecting the very things that would make their situation better.
Thomas Sowell writes about this in his most recent book, Candace Owens talks about it extensively.

What about female privilege? It's well documented, and pervasive. But nobody seems to be trying to deal with it.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Just to follow on the "not great", ok
Lets take someone today, can you honestly say that they would have had it better 50 years ago? 100 years ago?

I doubt it.

The reality is that things are better today than they were before, and we keep getting better. We should be happy with that.
That's also why we must not repeat the mistakes of before, and why we have to stand against those who want to introduce racism and discrimination, and destroy our shared liberal values.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Many Canadians hear the US Republican viewpoints echoed by the Conservatives, and that is an ideology they don't accept.

There are extremists on both left and right politically, espousing policies that don't reflect the values of most Canadians.

We lean towards a Scandanavian model of society. Ideally, we would have Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway as our neighbors.

Michael Moore did a documentary comparing a lot of the differences between other countries and the USA......and the differences were stark.

Even the simple basics of school lunches, vacation time allotment, prison conditions, mandatory qualifications for police officers........are world's apart.

Let us aspire to be among those "best in the world" countries. We are still a young country compared to those countries.

Remember it was the Vikings who discovered Canada and we still have much to learn from how they evolved into what they are today.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> We lean towards a Scandanavian model of society. Ideally, we would have Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway as our neighbors.


There are aspects those countries do right, and aspects they get wrong.
You have to realize that Canada ranks higher than them in Quality of Life for a reason.

They, like many countries have tried things that worked, and tried things that didn't work.
Since they found socialism doesn't work very well, and have since pulled back, I think we should learn from their example.

No reason to repeat mistakes others have already made.


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> What about female privilege? It's well documented, and pervasive. But nobody seems to be trying to deal with it.


LOL, really?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Spudd said:


> LOL, really?


There are only 2 countries in the world where males have a longer life expectancy than women.








List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Suicide rates, workplace fatalities.
Being a victim of crime.
Yeah, there is a clear difference.

Prison sentencing, child custody, and countless other fields.

The stuff showing men are ahead isn't even good data. We know the wage gap, when adjusted for type of work, and hours worked is pretty much equal, and for younger women it's in their favour, as companies try to hit gender quotas.

It's not even close, a woman in North America is arguably the most priviledged group in the the history of the world. Nobody talks about it.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Spudd said:


> LOL, really?


I think he's serious. This kind of thinking is common in American conservative circles: the world is against rich white males. This is at the core of MAGA and Trump support.

Many of those guys attacking the Capitol have this kind of ideology, that the world is conspiring against white men. Making America 'Great Again' means, to a great extent, re-establishing the power and dominance of white males.

The anti-female ideology is actually quite central to (American) right wing extremism. For example, Bissonnette (who shot 11 people in a mosque) disliked feminists and was obsessed with both muslims and the danger of feminism. The shooter also loved Trump. All of this goes together of course ... hatred for immigrants, women, and seeing all of it as a plot against white males. Love for Trump and MAGA.

Photo of the right wing terrorist:


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The strangest part is that much of the MAGA movement are the exact opposite of the wealthy white class that Trump advocates for.

In reality, they are a poorly educated and low income bunch.

The FBI reported that many of the Capital Hill mob lived with their mom and had financial and employment problems.

What they mostly represented were young adults who "failed to launch".


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> The strangest part is that much of the MAGA movement are the exact opposite of the wealthy white class that Trump advocates for.


It's because Trump is a con man who is tricking these people into keeping him in power. Of course Trump doesn't represent the interests of these people. They are the gullible masses, and Trump knows how to speak their language. I don't think Trump is particularly anti-immigrant, antisemitic, or anti-black, but his voters certainly are. And Trump knows how to make them dance like puppets.

The Conservative party uses some of the same tricks of course, but are not as nefarious as the Republicans. The Conservatives for example know that there are many angry Albertans, so they keep whipping up that anger. Just like with the Republicans, the Conservatives (*who represent the wealthy*) really won't act in the best interest of these people either... but they manipulate angry Albertans, purely to gain power.

Similarly, Conservatives manipulate rural and religious voters in similar ways... often pushing negative emotions, fear of change, fear of liberal values.

Liberals & NDP do something similar too of course, showing "over the top" concern for women & minorities as a way to manipulate people into voting for them. I don't approve of that either, but a key difference is that they actually do endorse more progressive/modern values. The Liberals and NDP do these things for the wrong reasons, but the results are actually positive changes with minorities gaining more rights & freedoms.

Whereas the Conservatives, just like the Republicans, mainly focus on fear of change and especially anger.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Yes, facts made you conclude Matt is a terrorist and a Republican, even though he is Canadian and a social Liberal. No shame.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eder said:


> Yes, facts made you conclude Matt is a terrorist and a Republican, even though he is Canadian and a social Liberal. No shame.


I didn't say anything of the sort. I think you should read my post more carefully.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Progressive conservatives have no home in the Conservative Party. The Reformers took it over and "reformed" it.

Reform + Progressive = a "Regressive"conservative party.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> fear of change, fear of liberal values


 Every sane person has to be scared of Liberal' change and Liberal's perverted values


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> The anti-female ideology is actually quite central to (American) right wing extremism. For example, Bissonnette (who shot 11 people in a mosque) disliked feminists and was obsessed with both muslims and the danger of feminism. The shooter also loved Trump.


 The shooter also love then NDP leader Layton


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> Progressive conservatives have no home in the Conservative Party. The Reformers took it over and "reformed" it.
> 
> Reform + Progressive = a "Regressive"conservative party.


Yeah, sadly they have gone the Reform / Canadian Alliance route (which is Americanization of the right wing).

I would prefer the Progressive Conservatives. Sadly this seems too "modern" for them.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> The shooter also love then NDP leader Layton


Yes that's true. He "liked" the pages for Trump, France's far right Le Pen, and the NDP. An interesting mix.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> the world is against rich white males


 Unfortunately this is the trend! Even long time ago when my wife hires white male into one of the biggest in the World hi tech company, she should've explain to HR why white male was hired and prove that there weren't other candidates.
Currently my waif is an executive in one of big 5 Canadian banks, and recently they had mandatory quiz - Black Lives Matter  ... It was very difficult , my wife passed it from 3rd attempt (and she is extremely smart , immigrant girl who worked as an executive in 2 out of 5 Canadian banks and one of the biggest in the World hi tech company). This happened after , in MN, extremely serious black criminal who served eight jail terms was killed during arrest  

Now, my wife was told by HR, one of her subordinates is suing bank for forcing him to complete ridiculous BLM quiz 
P.S. I've never heard about mandatory quiz like Jewish or All Lives Matter


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Yes that's true. He "liked" the pages for Trump, France's far right Le Pen, and the NDP. An interesting mix.


This is why you cannot give him as an example....Maybe he had bipolar disorder?!


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I think he's serious. This kind of thinking is common in American conservative circles: the world is against rich white males. This is at the core of MAGA and Trump support.


Actually I'm thinking the various subgroups see power in divisiveness. 
Also it's easier to blame others and complain than actually work to solve problems.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

1) It is now racist for a white person to translate the work of a black person


2) It is now homophobic for a straight actor to play a gay character


3) It is now racist for a white therapist to treat a black client


4) It is now racist to have advanced high school programs


5) It is now transphobic for biological females to reject having to compete against trans women (biological males)


6) It is now Islamophobic to criticize any tenets of Islam


7) It is now science denialism to question the ongoing COVID lockdowns


8) It is now science denialism to question any tenets stemming from climate change alarmists


9) It is now epistemological bigotry to support the scientific method as THE means by which you adjudicate scientific hypotheses


10) It is now racist to argue that mathematics yields right and wrong answers


11) It is now racist to promote the ethos of individual dignity over collectivist identity politics


12) It is now racist to criticize a Noble Person of Color be it a famous athlete or celebrity



13) It is now transphobic to posit that only women menstruate


14) It is now racist to publicly proclaim your support for "wrong think" black individuals such as Thomas Sowell or Larry Elder


15) It is now misogynistic to note that women greatly outnumber men in universities


16) It is now sexist to publish scientific research that yields sex differences that are contrary to accepted politically correct orthodoxy


17) It is now racist to point to FBI murder stats broken down by interracial markers of victim and perpetrator


18) It is now racist to openly support national borders


19) It is now racist to seek to curb immigration from countries that espouse values that are deeply hateful and anti-liberty


20) It is now racist to not decolonize philosophy and literature departments


21) It is now racist to request that job offers be based on the merits of an individual's dossier rather than on the use immutable traits




from The Abyss of Infinite Lunacy[/QUOTE]
Dr. Gad Saad is Professor of Marketing at Concordia University (Montreal, Canada), and former holder of the Concordia University Research Chair in Evolutionary Behavioral Sciences and Darwinian Consumption (2008-2018). He has held Visiting Associate Professorships at Cornell University, Dartmouth College, and the University of California–Irvine. Dr. Saad received the Faculty of Commerce’s Distinguished Teaching Award in June 2000, and was listed as one of the ‘hot’ professors of Concordia University in both the 2001 and 2002 Maclean’s reports on Canadian universities.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

It isn't the words spoken or written on the page that offends....it is the thought and purpose behind them.

It doesn't appear that Dr. Saad or Jordan Peterson or their comrades in arms.....suffer from much censorship, given their abundant public presence.

They suffer from the outrageous slings and arrows hurled towards them by a public who denounce their thesis for complete lack of merit.

They are upset and unaccepting of all the rejection. Why oh why....won't people just listen to me ? Don't they understand what I understand ?

Let's not forget that Jordan Peterson was himself delusional, psychotic and a drug abuser. Steven Bannon had delusions of taking over the US government.

These are the kinds of "fine minds" that Dr. Saad boasts about as his peers ?

Incidentally, some black people are racists too. Skin colour isn't an exemption from a racist disposition.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

@sags, I think you are racist!
_Saad was born in 1964 in Beirut, Lebanon, to a Jewish family. His family fled to Montreal, Quebec, Canada in October 1975 to escape the Lebanese Civil War _
and if you don't support black individuals such as Thomas Sowell or Larry Elder LOL

P.S. I'm following Dr. Gad Saad on Twitter....he's amazing man



> Let's not forget that Jordan Peterson was himself delusional, psychotic and a drug abuser


 Only delusional can post this BS

Trudeau himself is delusional, psychotic and a drug abuser !


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> It doesn't appear that Dr. Saad or Jordan Peterson or their comrades in arms.....suffer from much censorship, given their abundant public presence.
> 
> They suffer from the outrageous slings and arrows hurled towards them by a public who denounce their thesis for complete lack of merit.


Do you have any idea what Jordan Petersons "thesis" actually was?
Almost every criticism I've ever read of Jordan Peterson is based on things he never said.
he's got hundreds or thousands of hours of video up online, yet nobody can actually find him saying the bad things they accuse him of.



> Let's not forget that Jordan Peterson was himself delusional, psychotic and a drug abuser.


Please support that claim.
It is true that Jordan Peterson, had a mental illness and got treatment for it. 
He did this publicly to encourage those who need help to get it.

Also good job attacking the messenger rather than the message.

It's like dismissing Greta because she's a mentally ill teenager. That's wrong
I dismiss her arguments, because they're wrong and misinformed.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I would suggest people find better role models than those guys.

Wait until Chrystia Freeland becomes the PM of Canada and Kamala Harris the President of the US...........those guys heads will explode.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I would suggest people find better role models than those guys.
> 
> Wait until Chrystia Freeland becomes the PM of Canada and Kamala Harris the President of the US...........those guys heads will explode.


The sooner Freeland takes over for Trudeau, the better.

Harris, not sure, she's pretty scary, even the Democrats didn't want her as President.


----------



## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

Probability of a 2021 election? The Liberals have bought enough votes with borrowed money now, so probably. Which illustrates the fatal flaw in our system, and guarantees an eventual bankrupt treasury.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Given all that Trudeau has accomplished, I don't know why anyone would even consider a change of government.

Increased child benefits, restoring OAS to age 65, legalization of marijuana, enhancing the CPP, handling the Syrian refugee crisis, end of life legislation, ending mandatory sentencing, reducing EI requirements, restoring pensions for military veterans, restoring funding for research, timely and effective COVID financial support,..........and more.

Trudeau failed to implement any changes to political representation, but Canadians showed no interest in any changes there.

He didn't deliver on increased OAS benefits for those age 75 and over, but that may be addressed in the new budget.

All things considered, he said what he would do and did it.........so unlike other political parties he doesn't hide his true agenda.

So far, the Conservatives have struggled to put forth any detailed policy agenda, so I don't know why they expect Canadians would vote for them.

It will be interesting to see what direction Trudeau will lead Canada in the future.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Given all that Trudeau has accomplished, I don't know why anyone would even consider a change of government.


Given all that Trudeau has done, and how badly he's messed up, I don't see how anyone could consider voting for him.

He totally failed to properly screen and support Syrian refugees.
He failed to appoint judges, violent offenders never saw their day in court, or in some cases weren't even sentenced for the crimes they committed.

COVID19 was the defining crisis of the past year he failed to manage it in almost every way.
1. We still haven't closed our borders or enforced a quarantine
2. He delayed implementing travel restrictions.
3. He sent away our PPE at the start of COVID
4. He failed to secure vaccines and continues to lie about it.

The budget is a disaster, and he has no plan forward.
He's continuing to spend money like debt doesn't matter.

He's also been found to have committed more ethical violations than any PM in history, and since he shut down investigations we don't even know how far his actions have gone.


----------



## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

sags said:


> He didn't deliver on increased OAS benefits for those age 75 and over, but that may be addressed in the new budget.


LOL... as if they need more. It's already an over-generous program. I understand having the GIS as a top-up for low income seniors. That makes sense, but OAS doesn't make any sense to me.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

nathan79 said:


> LOL... as if they need more. It's already an over-generous program. I understand having the GIS as a top-up for low income seniors. That makes sense, but OAS doesn't make any sense to me.


I disagree that OAS is "already an over-generous program"., esp if you compare with other developed countries. For example, after 10 years living in Canada my mom this year starts getting OAS , her OAS will be $1,836 per year  and if she is leaving Canada , she gonna get 0.
However, after 15 years living in Israel , she here , in Canada, gets Israeli analog of OAS in amount of $9,700 (just converted her pension to AD$ for taxes), it's 528% higher that Canadian one!
Liberals are wasting so much money on different BS (the list would be too long to start listing), better they would increase OAS


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Liberals are on track for a Liberal majority government, according to the latest polls.

Liberals - 35.1%..........Conservatives - 29.9%. The Conservatives are slowly losing support to the NDP.



https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

pwm said:


> Probability of a 2021 election? The Liberals have bought enough votes with borrowed money now, so probably. Which illustrates the fatal flaw in our system, and guarantees an eventual bankrupt treasury.


Kind of reminds you how Harper bought all those votes with tax cuts & tax breaks for the rich, at a time Canada couldn't afford it.

A difference today is that money is actually going out more broadly and fairly to a wide range of Canadians. Not just to those who are filthy rich. Such things really anger the rich, and "business owners". In their view of the world, they are the only ones who deserve free money.

The scary talk about high spending and budgets is just a conservative talking point, and insincere. The track record has proven that they (including conservative in the US) are perfectly happy handing out free money like candy, as long as it goes to the rich.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Kind of reminds you how Harper bought all those votes with tax cuts & tax breaks for the rich, at a time Canada couldn't afford it.


For Liberals and NDP everyone who makes more than minimum wage are rich, except Liberal elites


> A difference today is that money is actually going out more broadly and fairly to a wide range of Canadians.


 Today money is wasted to buy votes of people who wants free money and bring pseudo-refugees and to corrupted entities like SNC.
This country is doomed!


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

The extra largess from Trudeau has resulted in record levels of savings. Coincidence? Who knows?


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

A lot of people depended on CERB or other government benefits when they were put out of work due to COVID. Some were forced into 2 week quarantines because a fellow worker was exposed to the virus. They are supportive of the government spending to support them.

I think it is a losing policy for Conservatives to criticize the COVID spending.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> A lot of people depended on CERB or other government benefits when they were put out of work due to COVID. Some were forced into 2 week quarantines because a fellow worker was exposed to the virus. They are supportive of the government spending to support them.
> 
> I think it is a losing policy for Conservatives to criticize the COVID spending.


You are mixing up COVID19 spending with all the other nonsense Trudeau is wasting money on.
It is possible to support COVID19 support, while not supporting the other initiatives, or having concerns with how poorly the COVID19 support was implemented.

Now it seems that his failure to determine the criteria means some who don't qualify still get money. 
Again from the beginning, and considering the exigent circumstances, advocated for a blanket handout to everyone.

The only reason Trudeau launched a half ***, confusing system, was to stretch out his announcements to hit as many individual voting blocks as possible.

Plus he should have spent a bit of money CLOSING THE BORDERS, I wonder how many billions we've spent, and lives we've lost due to his unwillingness to follow the most basic pandemic actions.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

If Alberta's Conservatives keep it up.......the Liberals may win some seats there in the next election.

Cutting spending for the disabled ? They should stop listening to Harper.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/income-support-funding-dropping-by-66m-in-2021-alberta-budget-1.5941765


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Canada spent more money per capita than any other country for Covid related matters, "secured" on paper more vaccine than any other country and .....on 57th place in the World by vaccination rate!
Amazing achievement of trudeau's government LOL


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Second place doesn't count for diddly squat in politics, but that appears what Conservatives seek.

Sometimes I wondered if Scheer really wanted to lead the government, or was content to live in the free Opposition residence, get paid more as Opposition Leader, get a car and driver, and have no responsibilities.

Now I wonder the same about O'Toole. Maybe he is content with the easy life.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

O'Toole now trying to sell the leftist "climate change" to his disciples... It was not so long ago a hoax and a tax grab. Now that's his chair is getting hot, he's now a progressist. 

I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Either way this hypocrite is trying hard to please to Quebecois, and I for one, see through his bull****.

If an election is called, Turdeau will be crowned without a hitch, and O'toole will crawl back in his wormhole. Cue Wexit.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

We already have enough political partyies pandering to special interest groups like BLM & climate activists. You don't need political boiler plate enshrined to build windmills or shut down our economy.

O'Toole is being a tool.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Before last elections I was telling that if Liberal win, Canada will pass "point of no return "... Unfortunately , that what I see now... We (Cons) don't have a strong leader, PPC and Maverick (Wexit) are going to split Cons vote.... Canada is doomed. imho, the only chance for Cons if Harper comes back


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Eder said:


> We already have enough political partyies pandering to special interest groups like BLM & climate activists. You don't need political boiler plate enshrined to build windmills or shut down our economy.
> 
> O'Toole is being a tool.


Don't worry, the party voted against resolutions on climate change.

Trudeau will be smiling tonight.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Erin O'Toole was just humiliated by his party. He called for an end to denying climate change, and his party votes against it!


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

You'd think they would at least play along to try and get power. Nope they are so stubborn that they rather keep thinking climate change is a hoax and risk dropping in 3rd place. A great day for Canada. Trudeau has a shoe in win. Here comes a wexit referendum.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

gibor365 said:


> imho, the only chance for Cons if Harper comes back


There's no way in hell Harpy would win.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

fstamand said:


> You'd think they would at least play along to try and get power. Nope they are so stubborn that they rather keep thinking climate change is a hoax and risk dropping in 3rd place. A great day for Canada. Trudeau has a shoe in win. Here comes a wexit referendum.


I gave up on this country after last elections, my kids too ... they don't want to live in Liberal Canada


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

They don't deny climate change, they just don't need it written into the cons mandate. We already have 3 parties running on climate virtue signalling.

I think it would be correct to put the economy ahead of special interest groups as it seems to be the most important thing to many Canadians.

It seems O'Toole wants his party to jump in the liberal/ndp pool...wrong move. He needs to step down.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

gibor365 said:


> I gave up on this country after last elections, my kids too ... they don't want to live in Liberal Canada


It's because for Canadians, there's more to this country than oil and money. We're more than that. And frankly the world is positioning itself away from fossil fuels. Time to wake up!

Conservatives are dead set against progression and in many minds, are the party of grumpy old white men.

O'toole is just trying to get the party to the 21st century. Cons rather lose the election then trying to leverage to what Canada is becoming. Good riddance harpys reform party.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Erin O'Toole was just humiliated by his party. He called for an end to denying climate change, and his party votes against it!


This is a serious concern.
O'Toole took the wrong side in this, and was pushing the resolution as an acknowledgement of climate change.
Of course the media ran with it as Conservatives rejecting climate change being real. Which is ridiculous, it's already in the platform.

Also it was a failure of leadership in several ways.
1. The statement itself was the kind of silly, feel good, do nothing crap that drives real conservatives nuts.
- This type of statement is more important than real action to lefties.
2. O'Tooles team should have reworded it in such a way that it would have been palatable.
- Harper would have reworded it, or explained WHY it was so important to pass as is.
3. Knowing it would fail, O'Toole should have ensured he was on the winning side of the vote. 
- If he didn't know such a vapid statement would fail, he doesn't deserve to be leader.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

fstamand said:


> It's because for Canadians, there's more to this country than oil and money. We're more than that.


I doubt any Canadian thinks that. But most realize that energy is important to all of Canada, as is the money to fund green initiatives.

I know from your tone that you are never "Con" but much of Canada is concerned about our debt & economy. The fact that our current government cares not a wit is pretty scary.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Eder said:


> I doubt any Canadian thinks that. But most realize that energy is important to all of Canada, as is the money to fund green initiatives.
> 
> I know from your tone that you are never "Con" but much of Canada is concerned about our debt & economy. The fact that our current government cares not a wit is pretty scary.


I was more saying the cons are not offering much but the old harpers rhetorics. This party needs to start pleasing millenials; where 71% believe in climate change.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

From the party debate....O'Toole direct responses:

"Yes, we will scrap Mr. Trudeau's carbon tax and have a serious plan to get our economy moving and emissions down," O'Toole said. 

"The debate is over. Climate change is real," he said in response to a delegate from British Columbia. 

Good enough for me...better than the one that goes "The budget will balance itself" from another hack.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eder said:


> I know from your tone that you are never "Con" but much of Canada is concerned about our debt & economy. The fact that our current government cares not a wit is pretty scary.


If Conservatives were in power they would be doing the exact same things as the Liberals. I don't buy this narrative ... Conservatives (like the Republicans) are not inherently anti-debt or anti-deficit or anything like that.

Virtually every economist recommends strong government spending in response to a Depression shock to GDP. The reduction in GDP last year was off the charts ... the worst in recorded history in our country.

The Liberals are executing the _recommended_ reaction to this massive economic shock. As I'm sure the Conservatives would have.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

james4beach said:


> If Conservatives were in power they would be doing the exact same things as the Liberals. I don't buy this narrative ... Conservatives (like the Republicans) are not inherently anti-debt or anti-deficit or anything like that.
> 
> Virtually every economist recommends strong government spending in response to a Depression shock to GDP. The reduction in GDP last year was off the charts ... the worst in recorded history in our country.
> 
> The Liberals are executing the _recommended_ reaction to this massive economic shock. As I'm sure the Conservatives would have.


Absolutely agree, but the difference is that the Conservatives know enough to budget away from required deficit spending when the crisis is over. The perfect example was after the 2008 financial crisis where the Conservative government slowly returned to a balanced budget by 2015. 

Predictably the Liberal government under Trudeau is seizing this pandemic opportunity to take us further down the debt hole and promote his green new deal. A disaster in the making.

ltr


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Eder said:


> From the party debate....O'Toole direct responses:
> 
> "Yes, we will scrap Mr. Trudeau's carbon tax and have a serious plan to get our economy moving and emissions down," O'Toole said.
> 
> ...


Yes, exactly and I agree with you on this one 100%. His base however is playing hardball and sending a clear message to Turdeau to call it. Perhaps he will announce a ridiculous budget just to get the cons to call it for him. 

It's a really critical time for the CPC. I for one would expect them to move closer to the center, or burn in hell, Harper first.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

like_to_retire said:


> Absolutely agree, but the difference is that the Conservatives know enough to budget away from required deficit spending when the crisis is over. The perfect example was after the 2008 financial crisis where the Conservative government slowly returned to a balanced budget by 2015.


Sure, by slashing social programs, slashing funding to veterans and aboriginal affairs, axing healthcare services, while building a $2M fake lake and trying to buy F35 without engines. Yup cons are the greatest with my money.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

All in all the Conservatives under Harper did a good job. Do I really need to drag out a laundry list of moronic things Trudeau has wasted money on, because I'd rather not hand you your hat today

ltr


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> If Conservatives were in power they would be doing the exact same things as the Liberals. I don't buy this narrative ... Conservatives (like the Republicans) are not inherently anti-debt or anti-deficit or anything like that.
> 
> Virtually every economist recommends strong government spending in response to a Depression shock to GDP. The reduction in GDP last year was off the charts ... the worst in recorded history in our country.
> 
> The Liberals are executing the _recommended_ reaction to this massive economic shock. As I'm sure the Conservatives would have.


The Conservatives are completely unlike Republicans, you keep stating this false equivalency, doesn't make it true.

It's the ethics and agenda of the Liberals that is a problem.
You keep thinking it's money.

Yes the fact that in 2 years the Liberals haven't bothered to prepare a budget is a problem.
More problematic is they think "budgets balance themselves".

It's this complete lack of plan that's a problem. It's not that it's a bad plan, it's that they have NO PLAN. That's irresponsible.

Also the ethics violations, and Trudeaus general sliminess. He doesn't think the rules should apply to them, and for the most part they don't.
He's bragged about how when his brother committed crimes, Daddy just made a phone call and they went away.
He's admitted to accepting bribes, and interfereing with criminal prosecutions, but hey I had a good reason.
He blatantly ignores health orders, but hey, it's Justin.

So go ahead decry bottled water while you drink your $50/case boxed water.








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This is the guy who sent our PPE out of country right before COVID hit, and STILL hasn't closed the border. We're entering a third wave because of foreign variants, that would have likely been stopped if he closed the border and restricted travel.
His bad decisions are hurting and killing people. 

The fact that anyone could support this guy is beyond me


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

I find it amusing that you cons automatically assume that "if you're not a conservative, you're a Trudeau fan".


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Eder said:


> They don't deny climate change, they just don't need it written into the cons mandate. We already have 3 parties running on climate virtue signalling.
> 
> I think it would be correct to put the economy ahead of special interest groups as it seems to be the most important thing to many Canadians.
> 
> It seems O'Toole wants his party to jump in the liberal/ndp pool...wrong move. He needs to step down.


If the conservatives want to get elected, they need to be open to the centre. And the centre is on board with reducing emissions. The CPC can continue whispering sweet nothings in the ears of O&G industry, but they will be doing so from the opposition benches.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> More problematic is they think "budgets balance themselves".


This horse is getting a little tired.

It was taken out of context. When the economy is growing faster than government spending, budgets do indeed balance themselves. That is the sense in which Trudeau meant it. I'm sure Conservatives wish Trudeau was as dumb as they are portraying this statement to be, but it would just make their defeat all the more embarrassing.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Also the ethics violations, and Trudeaus general sliminess. He doesn't think the rules should apply to them, and for the most part they don't


Maybe you're new. Politicians are slimey. Harper bought the vote of a dying MP with government funds. He bought the support of a loud-mouth media personality with a Senate appointment. The level of ethics violations we're talking about seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill. Canadians seem to agree.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> This horse is getting a little tired.
> 
> It was taken out of context. When the economy is growing faster than government spending, budgets do indeed balance themselves. That is the sense in which Trudeau meant it. I'm sure Conservatives wish Trudeau was as dumb as they are portraying this statement to be, but it would just make their defeat all the more embarrassing.


When you increase spending faster than the economy is growing, budgets don't balance themselves.
So in the context of the rapidly growing spending he was engaged in, the statement was even more ridiculous.

I wish Trudeau was as politically dumb as he is in other areas. But I have said, repeatedly that he has to be one of the most politically capable politicians in recent history.
Quite simply he's a political genius to still have support with his record. Part of that is the Conservatives inability to field a credible alternative.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Maybe you're new. Politicians are slimey. Harper bought the vote of a dying MP with government funds. He bought the support of a loud-mouth media personality with a Senate appointment. The level of ethics violations we're talking about seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill. Canadians seem to agree.


Accepting bribes isn't a minor ethics violation.
Intereferinng with a criminal trial isn't a minor violation.
Giving a billion dollars to friends, to do the jobs of government workers isn't some minor issue.

I think the Chuck Cadman issue was a bit messy, and I think that we should do more to ensure that politicians aren't swayed either way by the results of a vote.
I think in that case the actions were wrong, however I think think there was a pretty obvious conflict of interest, and we didn't have a good way to address it.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Giving a billion dollars to friends, to do the jobs of government workers isn't some minor issue.


This isn't just spin, it's factually incorrect. The WE charity was not given a billion dollars.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> This isn't just spin, it's factually incorrect. The WE charity was not given a billion dollars.


Sorry $912 million, to do a task that should have been done by the same staff that does it every other year.






WE Charity scandal - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




The *WE Charity scandal* is an ongoing Canadian political scandal regarding the awarding of a federal contract to WE Charity to administer the $912 million Canada Student Summer Grant program (CSSG).


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

They were hired to administer a billion dollar program. They were not 'given' a billion dollars.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Nice spin.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

andrewf said:


> They were hired to administer a billion dollar program. They were not 'given' a billion dollars.


It was very slimy...they were sole sourced and given the job even though they were close friends and had been paying his mother huge money. I can't see even woke Liberals being OK with this move.

Almost $500,000 has been paid out of donations to this charity to support Trudeau's family over the last 10 years.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Conservatives blame the leader they elected, when their problems are their dumb policies.

But for goodness sakes don't change. Trudeau still has work to do building Canada's future.


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

sags said:


> The Conservatives blame the leader they elected, when their problems are their dumb policies.
> 
> But for goodness sakes don't change. Trudeau still has work to do building Canada's future.


The only work he has to do now is call an election and watch the canada blue become brown.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> They were hired to administer a billion dollar program. They were not 'given' a billion dollars.


The plan was to let them distribute the billion dollars, and pay them several tens of millions to do so.

Never mind the Federal government already had staff and a program to do this.
Never mind other groups were better suited to do this task.

I have no doubt that the decision to give We control of the money was to funnel it to Liberal friendly causes and organizations.
When the Liberals tried to corrupt the summer jobs program, they were called on it.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

like_to_retire said:


> Absolutely agree, but the difference is that the Conservatives know enough to budget away from required deficit spending when the crisis is over. The perfect example was after the 2008 financial crisis where the Conservative government slowly returned to a balanced budget by 2015.
> 
> Predictably the Liberal government under Trudeau is seizing this pandemic opportunity to take us further down the debt hole and promote his green new deal. A disaster in the making.


I understand your concern, but I'm not sure what basis you have for this worry given that the Liberal party has quite a good history of fiscal management, through past governments.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

fstamand said:


> It's a really critical time for the CPC. I for one would expect them to move closer to the center, or burn in hell, Harper first.


I wonder what The Beard is up to, these days



like_to_retire said:


> All in all the Conservatives under Harper did a good job.


No, they did a terrible job. Absolutely one of the worst governments of modern history... almost ruined the country, threatened Canadian values, wrecked the scientific community, and even destroyed our reputation on the world stage. Good riddance to The Beard.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I understand your concern, but I'm not sure what basis you have for this worry given that the Liberal party has quite a good history of fiscal management, through past governments.


I agree, I think traditionally Canada has been blessed with generally competent governments at the federal level irrespective of party.

However I think that this specific government is an unfortunate anomaly. It's IMO a personality cult around Trudeau and it is very bad for our country.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> I agree, I think traditionally Canada has been blessed with generally competent governments at the federal level irrespective of party.
> 
> However I think that this specific government is an unfortunate anomaly. It's IMO a personality cult around Trudeau and it is very bad for our country.


We had a drastic switch from the best ever PM (Harper) to the worst ever (JT)


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> We had a drastic switch from the best ever PM (Harper) to the worst ever (JT)


I wouldn't say Harper was best ever. 
He was a particularly competent manager, which is all I want from my government.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> I wouldn't say Harper was best ever.
> He was a particularly competent manager, which is all I want from my government.


Let say - one of the best , at least in last 40 years.
Trudeau is the worst one probably after another Liberal and anti-Semitic Makenzie King


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Unfortunately for Conservatives, rewriting history isn't as easy as it used to be.

Harper's dismal record will live on for all time in bits and bytes.

_*The Liberal Party's increase of 148 seats from the previous election was the largest-ever numerical increase by a party in a Canadian election*. Prior to the campaign, the Liberals had held only 36 seats—the fewest seats ever held at dissolution by any federal party that won the following election. The Liberals also became the first federal party in Canadian history to win a majority of seats without having been either the governing party or the Official Opposition in the previous parliament, and this was only the second time a party went from having the third-most seats to the most seats (the first being in 1925). It was the second largest number of seats won in a federal election for the Liberals, the best being 191 in 1949. The election also had the highest voter turnout since 1993. Every party represented in the House of Commons except the Liberal Party recorded a decrease in its popular vote share. _









2015 Canadian federal election - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The thing I worry about most is Trudeau getting older, going bald and losing his superpowers.

That's what happened to Harper. He became a cone head.


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