# Food supply chain



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Over the past couple of months, I’ve been told the food chain is safe, but we are starting to see some cracks in the links. Figured a new thread would be good to focus on the issue.

we assumed lack of supply would be the issue, but it appears lack of demand is hurting the potato farmers.









Canada’s meat-and-potato problem: Coronavirus pandemic hits the food supply chain - National | Globalnews.ca


Potato growers are the latest to push for help, asking Ottawa for "urgent required interventions" as demand for french fries has all but disappeared.




globalnews.ca













'The Food Supply Chain is Breaking.' Tyson Foods Warns of Meat Shortage Amid Coronavirus Pandemic


As meat plants close, millions of pounds of meat will disappear from the supply chain, chair of the company board, says




time.com


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Government do not care how many people they kill do to starvation. The governments kills millions of people with their wars. Crops are being plowed under because the supply chains have been broken. Power tripping Governments are still making us burn our food i.e., ethanol & they shut down the world economy over a over hyped Corna. China has over a billion & half people when this so called pandemic started only 150 people in China died from Corona. So what that is peanuts over that size of population why even tell us

There is no evidence that the global economy should have been shut down. It is one lie after another @ first they said Corona was going to kill over 2 million in the states alone. The flu kills more people every year then Corna. Over 7.5 billion people in the world & only about 200,000 people have died from Corna with the stats being fudged by hospitals receiving more money if they treat people for covid or even more if they put people on ventilators . Usually it is not just Corona causing the death. It is old age & other complications. The ventilators are actually killing people.





The herd today is as dumb as the herd that hailed Hitler & marched to Mossolini.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

I think that with a full digit death rate, locking down makes sense
with .02% as some researchers are claiming, I don't think so.

Ventilators don't kill people, they just buy a small amount of extra time.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I think that with a full digit death rate, locking down makes sense
> with .02% as some researchers are claiming, I don't think so.
> 
> Ventilators don't kill people, they just buy a small amount of extra time.


I haven't seen any credible claims that the death rate is <0.1%, and it is much more likely to be close to 1%.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

andrewf said:


> I haven't seen any credible claims that the death rate is <0.1%, and it is much more likely to be close to 1%.


There have been 3 rerported studies (St Clara, Boston, and Iceland). In Boston for example, 147 of about 400 people in a homeless shelter had contracted the virus with 0 deaths reported. The Santa Clara study was done by Stanford University and showed a projected fatality rate slightly higher than the flu.

The problem is that mostly sick people have been tested and that unfairly skews the fatality rate. When everyone is tested it's far lower.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The President of the US claims you can shove an ultraviolet light up your arse and kill the virus. It works like Preparation H suppositories, only bigger.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The President of the US claims you can shove an ultraviolet light up your arse and kill the virus. It works like Preparation H suppositories, only bigger.


I think it's funny/sad that to actually mock what he said, people have to lie about it.

UV is commonly used to disinfect, it has been for decades. This shouldn't be controversial.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)




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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> There have been 3 rerported studies (St Clara, Boston, and Iceland). In Boston for example, 147 of about 400 people in a homeless shelter had contracted the virus with 0 deaths reported. The Santa Clara study was done by Stanford University and showed a projected fatality rate slightly higher than the flu.
> 
> The problem is that mostly sick people have been tested and that unfairly skews the fatality rate. When everyone is tested it's far lower.


So cherrypicking a few small, non-representative samples that support your conclusion? Diamond Princess is a larger sample with more time for cases to actually resolve and it resolved with >1% case fatality ratio.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I think it's funny/sad that to actually mock what he said, people have to lie about it.
> 
> UV is commonly used to disinfect, it has been for decades. This shouldn't be controversial.


Here's a verbatim transcript of his remarks. It becomes quite obvious how incoherent he is when he speaks.



> "So I asked Bill a question some of you are thinking of if you're into that world, which I find to be pretty interesting. So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether its ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said, that hasn't been checked but you're gonna test it. And then I said, supposing it brought the light inside the body, which you can either do either through the skin or some other way, and I think you said you're gonna test that too, sounds interesting. *And I then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute, and is there a way you can do something like that by injection inside, or almost a cleaning.* Because you see it gets in the lungs, and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it'd be interesting to check that. So you're going to have to use medical doctors, but it sounds interesting to me, so we'll see. But the whole concept of the light, the way it goes in one minute, that's pretty powerful."


He talked about testing injecting disinfectant. As a separate idea to the UV light (which is dubious, but whatever--it can be tested in animal models).


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt, my point RE: UV is that I have experience using UV light to disinfect water. It is very important that the water has very high transparency, as even small particles in the water can protect pathogens from being damaged by the UV light. So yes, it works great for sterlizing a clean, flat surface (like a table). Given that we know this, how does one imagine it is going to kill a meaningful amount of virus particles in an organism by inserting it into the lungs? The lungs are filled with branches, folds, and aviola. The UV light needs to directly line of sight come into contact with pathogens to damage them. The surface area of human lungs is the size of a tennis court. How do you ensure you get to the entire surface? And then, it is only affecting the surface. Does it penetrate cells, many cells deep in lung tissue, and destroy the virus particles in the cells? What about all the tissues that can be infected besides the lungs (like mucous membranes)? And even if you sterilize some number of virus particles, how does one imagine that helps when the virus has hijacked the body to replicate itself in the billions? Given what I understand about UV light, disinfection and how viruses work, I don't see this being effective. I am not in a position to be deciding whether this should be tested or not. Go ahead and test it. I would not wager on it turning out to be effective though. The phrase 'wishful thinking' comes to mind.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> Over the past couple of months, I’ve been told the food chain is safe, but we are starting to see some cracks in the links. Figured a new thread would be good to focus on the issue.
> 
> we assumed lack of supply would be the issue, but it appears lack of demand is hurting the potato farmers.
> 
> ...


Back to the thread. Thanks Money for posting this. The two articles bring some interesting thoughts on the impacts of COVID on the supply chain. I find it really interesting how some items such as potatoes are going to waste because of the restaurants and then meat not so much because of processing plants and illness. There will still be a lot of meat that goes to waste because it cannot be processed. 

I do believe the supply chain will re-stabilize but it will take years. I have not idea how farmers are suppose to plan for next year for their crops. Do that assume everything will go back to normal, and take the chance that of throwing away a lot if the restaurants demand is reduced, or do they plant less, and then there could be larger shortages next year.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

People have no idea of what is going to happen in the next few years as a result of the virus. The food supply issues are just ONE of the unexpected consequences it will have. We can expect to see many more as time goes on.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A local Costco is restricting meat packages to 1 per customer. A local Canadian Superstore closed down due to an infected employee.

I don't know about food "shortages", but food delays may become "normal". These plants that are shut down should reopen in a couple of weeks.

My brother in law in Saskatchewan says the farmers are getting ready to plant soon. He sold his farm and works on a relative's farm now.

Getting the grain from them to us.....is the problem. They can ship grain, but the bakeries, pasta makers etc have to be open to receive it.

In Southwestern Ontario, we are surrounded by mixed farming. Drive outside the city in any direction and it is all farmland, dairy and orchards.

Farmers can sell direct to the customer if necessary. Every summer farmers set up at the corner plaza with fresh produce and sell it out of a cargo truck.

Corn, peas, apples, berries..........whatever is in season. It is an interesting corner actually, as there is a strip plaza with a huge parking lot.

During sports events people set up to sell flags of the world. During May 24 and Canada Day they set up to sell fireworks.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I see "community gardens" are opening up in our city. We have one just behind us a bit and it is pretty big and well outfitted. They have fresh water available.

Another garden beside us is used by older folks to plant flowers and plants. It looks nice and keeps them active. People will adapt and manage.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> A local Costco is restricting meat packages to 1 per customer. A local Canadian Superstore closed down due to an infected employee.


Which Costco?
I hope not, then I'll have to go more than once a month. Or I'll do that buy, put in car, then go right back in store thing.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> Which Costco?
> I hope not, then I'll have to go more than once a month. Or I'll do that buy, put in car, then go right back in store thing.


can’t do that in Toronto.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1254744918146330624
you'll be there all day!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Which Costco?
> I hope not, then I'll have to go more than once a month. Or I'll do that buy, put in car, then go right back in store thing.


I would have to ask the wife when she gets home at 4, but I believe it was the one on Wellington Street, because that is where her friend lives who told her.

The Canadian Superstore is the Oakridge Mall one.

The information on the closed Canadian Superstore is here. Good local info at this website.

Make sure to click on the story for comments as they often contain more information than the headline does.









r/londonontario


r/londonontario: Subreddit for news, discussion, and anything else related to London, Ontario. Join our Discord (18+): https://discord.gg/pw2Zr92Ks2




www.reddit.com


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

In Scotland, the butchers, bakers, dairies are going back to the 'old days'. My sister-in-law is getting home delivery from all of them. Milk in glass bottles. Remember those days when the milkman left your milk on the front doorstep? 

Farmers are also driving around with a speaker offering fresh veggies. Transaction is done while maintaining distancing.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> can’t do that in Toronto.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1254744918146330624
> you'll be there all day!


No I won't. Before I would stand in that kind of a line I would use my brain and figure out a better way to get groceries. People really don't have much imagination when it comes to changing their habits to suit the circumstances do they.

Or do you think it's all just because they want to save a dollar lining up at Costco vs. using a small local store without the lineups?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> In Scotland, the butchers, bakers, dairies are going back to the 'old days'. My sister-in-law is getting home delivery from all of them. Milk in glass bottles. Remember those days when the milkman left your milk on the front doorstep?
> 
> Farmers are also driving around with a speaker offering fresh veggies. Transaction is done while maintaining distancing.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

Money172375 said:


> can’t do that in Toronto.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1254744918146330624
> you'll be there all day!


It looks worse than it is because everyone is spread out. I counted about 70-80 customers. I'd say about an hour wait time for a full store. If the doors open on an empty store, they'll probably let all of those people in much faster than that.

Probably better to go near the end of the day. I checked out ours last week and around 7pm the line outside was 5 customers. I'll try that next time.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> In Scotland, the butchers, bakers, dairies are going back to the 'old days'. My sister-in-law is getting home delivery from all of them. Milk in glass bottles. Remember those days when the milkman left your milk on the front doorstep?


I saw on CTV news channel that a guy who usually delivers milk/dairy products to restaurants is now doing home deliveries in the Ottawa area. 

Cheers


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

andrewf said:


> So cherrypicking a few small, non-representative samples that support your conclusion? Diamond Princess is a larger sample with more time for cases to actually resolve and it resolved with >1% case fatality ratio.


I'm pretty sure you have no idea what the Santa Clara or Iceland samples represented.

But since you're accusing of cherry picking...the Diamond Princess was heavily skewed to the 70+ age group. It's not a representative sample and yet you brought it up. Don't be a hypocrite.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Freezers are the new TP. People must be planning on loading up.

Our freezer is already full, but we are still buying dry goods. Hereford canned corn beef, canned deviled ham, are good alternative sources if needed.

Long lineups at banks, grocery stores......but ordered an electric can opener (figure we will need it) at Bed, Bath and Beyond and nobody there.

Ordered online, they texted me to come to pick up 10 minutes later. Pulled up in front of store and popped the trunk. They dropped it in and that was that.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Another Real Canadian Superstore employee is infected. They worked in the bakery and shoppers are advised to throw out any bread purchased from the store.









Shoppers urged to discard bread after Superstore bakery employee tests positive


Shoppers who bought bread at the Real Canadian Superstore in East London on the weekend are being urged to throw the bread out, after a bakery employee at the…




lfpress.com


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> I think that with a full digit death rate, locking down makes sense
> with .02% as some researchers are claiming, I don't think so.
> 
> Ventilators don't kill people, they just buy a small amount of extra time.


I watched 2 videos on Martin Armstrong site with doctors from New York saying the ventilators were being used wrong causing death. They were even putting people on ventilators that could complete full sentences.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

sags said:


> Another Real Canadian Superstore employee is infected. They worked in the bakery and shoppers are advised to throw out any bread purchased from the store.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Probably an abundance of caution. No evidence that the virus can be transmitted on food.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Wrong thread.







Cheers


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Cargill has re-opened even though the workers are mostly refusing to return to work. Meanwhile, the NDP in Alberta are calling for a 'full investigation' etc.

Why is it that we always have to start the 'blame game' when what we should be doing is FIXING the problem.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> Why is it that we always have to start the 'blame game' when what we should be doing is FIXING the problem.


But blamestorming is always so much fun!


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Meat prices at Costco sure have jumped from a few weeks back, up about 20-40%.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

We just had some sirloin steaks and extra lean ground beef delivered yesterday, no noticeable price difference. 

It makes me think of gas prices. Do they price it based on what it cost when the gas station had their underground tanks filled up or do they price it based on what it will cost today to replace it? In the case of gas it is of course the latter for all the major gas companies. Only with a small private owned gas station (hard to find these days of course) does an owner perhaps price based on what was paid to fill their tanks.

We get gasoline from a local reservation which prices by what they paid. We get meat from our local Foodland but they buy from local farms and meat cutters. That also I believe is priced based on what our local supermarket paid. 

Most items in our Foodland come from a central warehouse and prices are dictated by 'Foodland' but where items are bought locally, they are priced by our local Foodland itself, not the 'central office'.

Local items are meats, poultry, fruit and vegetables. In a few months, they will be selling corn that was picked from the field behind our house for example. This month it will be fresh asparagus, the first crop of the season.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> We just had some sirloin steaks and extra lean ground beef delivered yesterday, no noticeable price difference.
> 
> It makes me think of gas prices. Do they price it based on what it cost when the gas station had their underground tanks filled up or do they price it based on what it will cost today to replace it? In the case of gas it is of course the latter for all the major gas companies. Only with a small private owned gas station (hard to find these days of course) does an owner perhaps price based on what was paid to fill their tanks.


From what I understand they price based on replacement cost, unless they're trying to draw down the tanks for delivery.

That's generally how I think things should be priced if you're an ongoing operation. 
It's also why prices move through the system faster than the physical product.

Imagine if you knew that the next load of gas was going to be +$0.10, then everyone would run out now to get "the cheap gas", and we'd have a shortage. Pricing at market prices helps remove those demand spikes.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

I don't have to imagine ... I heard about the damage Hurricane Katrina was doing, headed to the gas station to fill up and the next day the same station was $0.14 more expensive. Lots of people were lined up buying gas. 

In some areas of Canada, the overnight jump was reported to be $0.20 where part of the US reported a $0.12 jump.

It might have shortened the demand but it didn't avoid a spike or a shortage. In at least Eastern Canada, gas stations ran out due to what was reported as panic buying.


An even larger jump in prices in 2007 did not stop gas stations from running out of gas either. 
IIRC, one of the articles from 2007 talked about while few likely remember anything like the current situation of closed gas stations with gas rationing, it's happened at least five other times.


It's odd how when gas prices are questioned because of good news or an improving situation, industry reps talk about how it takes time for the benefits to work their way through the system. Bad news, OTOH gets priced in overnight or over a couple of days.


Cheers


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> I don't have to imagine ... I heard about the damage Hurricane Katrina was doing, headed to the gas station to fill up and the next day the same station was $0.14 more expensive. Lots of people were lined up buying gas.
> 
> In some areas of Canada, the overnight jump was reported to be $0.20 where part of the US reported a $0.12 jump.
> 
> ...


In Ontario we had a price spike, but I don't recall shortages.

I'm not surprised that they ran out of gas out east. It's a regulated market. That's why price controls are BAD.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

There were in Waterloo, ON.

There's also ... Customers fume as gas stations run dry
And an article where PetroCanada said 75 of 440 Ontario gas stations ran out of gas (17%) and Esso reported 30 of 200 (15%) ran out. Some stations implemented a 75 litre limit.

Maybe you were in an area that wasn't affected?


Cheers


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> There were in Waterloo, ON.
> 
> There's also ... Customers fume as gas stations run dry
> And an article where PetroCanada said 75 of 440 Ontario gas stations ran out of gas (17%) and Esso reported 30 of 200 (15%) ran out. Some stations implemented a 75 litre limit.
> ...


I lived in Waterloo, ON back then.

Don't recall it being an issue, but a few gas stations (less than 1 in 5) isn't something I'd necessarily notice.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Steam whistle is Warning there could be beer shortages due to lack of bottles. Seems people are not returning their empties. The advise is to put them at your curb if you don’t want to go to the store yourself. Someone will pick them up and return them.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> Steam whistle is Warning there could be beer shortages due to lack of bottles. Seems people are not returning their empties. The advise is to put them at your curb if you don’t want to go to the store yourself. Someone will pick them up and return them.


Some people?
The Ontario Beer store banned returns. 
I heard they opened it up at a small fraction of stores, and even then have limits.

Beer crisis averted as Ontario retailer set to restart bottle recycling program

Their policy is causing the problem.

This is just like the economic depression we're in, it's caused by government policy.

When people implement these policies, they should consider the implications.
If you ban and limit bottle returns, you'll run out of bottles.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> Some people?
> The Ontario Beer store banned returns.
> I heard they opened it up at a small fraction of stores, and even then have limits.
> 
> ...


I missed that....I see lineups of people returning bottles at my local store.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> I missed that....I see lineups of people returning bottles at my local store.


Yep, it's almost like government regulations cause problems.
The solution of course is more government control and involvement!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> Some people?
> The Ontario Beer store banned returns.
> I heard they opened it up at a small fraction of stores, and even then have limits.
> 
> ...


I really couldn't care less about beer bottle returns. There are more important things to spend time and effort on right now don't you think.

Government Minister: 'Oh quick everybody, we have to keep beer stores open, so we need to figure out the potential implications of doing that. We'll need say 20 people to form a committee and do a study on that, right away.'

Some poor little schmuck in the back row: 'But what about this virus? Who will we have left to work on that?'

Government Minister: 'Idiot, beer drinkers vote, get your priorities right. If they can't get their beer and return their bottles, they'll vote for the opposition. We can't just tell them we have more important things to worry about.'


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

My wife bought some more Lysol wipes at Food Basics. They were almost gone. A fella could make some serious money selling a trailer load on the corner.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> I really couldn't care less about beer bottle returns. There are more important things to spend time and effort on right now don't you think.
> 
> Government Minister: 'Oh quick everybody, we have to keep beer stores open, so we need to figure out the potential implications of doing that. We'll need say 20 people to form a committee and do a study on that, right away.'
> 
> ...


You care enough to comment.

Really they already have or should have infection control protocols for bottle returns anyway.
I don't think a ban on reusing & recycling products was appropriate, but I'm not the government.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think there were some missteps (understandable) with how people decided to respond to the situation. Many stores reduced hours, but this ended up causing lines and crowding, so they decided to extend hours again somewhat.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

andrewf said:


> I think there were some missteps (understandable) with how people decided to respond to the situation. Many stores reduced hours, but this ended up causing lines and crowding, so they decided to extend hours again somewhat.


I entered a grocery store for the first time in about a month. I see lineups at Walmart, Home Depot, food basics, zebras, metro, go to a noFrills today....no lineups.....yay. Step foot into the store.......right away I notice there are too many people in there. And three or four sale items are right by the front door causing a logjam. Nobody following social distancing. They had some (?) aisles marked with arrows, but most weren’t.

pretty poor execution overall.....and the premier says businesses MUST follow social distancing if they want to (remain) open.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

No one at the door controlling entry?


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

andrewf said:


> No one at the door controlling entry?


nope.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The following link and others linked through it, make some interesting reading about food delivery apps and their business practices.








Man makes money buying his own pizza on DoorDash app


The owner of a pizza restaurant discovered the app was selling his food cheaper than he was but still paying him full price.



www.bbc.com


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