# Boomers with Boomerangs.



## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

> When the Baby Boomer generation left home, they didn't look back. They couldn't. Not with younger siblings and physically smaller living quarters.
> <Snip>
> "Children are taking longer to leave home, they are staying in school longer if they don't have immediate employment prospects or opportunities, taking longer to find stable jobs, longer to get married, longer to have kids," said Daryl Diamond, financial planner and author of Your Retirement Income Blueprint 2011.


http://www.financialpost.com/todays-paper/Boomers+with+their+boomerangs/6682654/story.html

I don't know how many members may fall into this scenario but I'm one of them. This is also one of the few budgeting areas where my wife and I see things differently. There are a couple of points we agree on:

- We will pay post-secondary tuition fees provided courses are passed.
- We cover room and board, at home, while the children go to school. 

Both of us have grown up in a situation where neither of these options were available, so I think it is a relatively good deal.

Here are some of the questions that arise: Son graduated and is employed in his field but can only secure continuous renewing contract work (one company) at a few bucks over minimum-wage. I realize his situation is tight, so I don't want to gouge him, but I think it is fair he pay something for food, internet, utilities, etc. My wife has more trouble with this. I thought we should charge about $350 per month, my wife didn't want to charge anything for fear that we would be "forcing him out". We compromised at $250.

Daughter going into 3rd year university. We pay tuition and cover room and board. She is a good student and gets scholarships which help us greatly because they cover about half her tuition. She is also one of the few students without a cell-phone. My wife thinks that we should supply one, especially due to her scholarship status. I think that many kids, even from wealthier families, would be paying their own tuition or getting loans regardless of getting a scholarship. So I don't know that it would be expecting too much for her to work to cover her own cell-phone expenses. However, I'm starting to waiver. What do you people think? Advice? 

Here is the 3rd dilemma -same daughter. She may eventually further her studies at a university in another city. I believe if this happens, she should either work or get student loans to cover the cost difference between room-and-board at home and rental accommodation. My wife is not so convinced on this point. Am I being too much of a hard-***? 

I will say that in other areas my wife is very frugal - very often much more so than I am. Also we are doing okay and have some RESP money to help with the education. However, a recent layoff, which possibly means early-retirement status for me (profession seems to have become obsolete), means that we do have to exercise a certain amount of caution with such expenses. 

Still have a 14-year-old daughter who is already pressing on the financial purse-strings. Sometimes I wonder if the older 2 will be independent by the time we face the university situation with her. :stupid:

So let me toss out this general question. How much financial responsibility should parents have for their adult children? Please feel free to give advice or opinions, even if you do not yet have children of adult status. However, be aware that someone asked a similar query when my children were much younger and I was very much tougher regarding my advice for financial expectations for adult-age children. As you will find out, it's one of those situations that looks much different "on paper" than "in practice".


----------



## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

I don't think it's a dollars and cents issue. If you are providing financial support, but also ensuring they are becoming fiscally responsible (i.e. your son isn't blowing all his money on 'things' while you charge him below market rates for rent and food, and is saving some money etc), then I don;t think there is any problems with helping.

My son is very young, but I expect to pay for his University education (like my parents did for me), and also help with a first home purchase if possible (like my parents did for me).

I'm not a spoiled over spending brat, but that has more to do with the financial lessons I was taught, not because I did or did not receive help as a young adult.


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Exactly what Sampson said. If they are making an effort and investing in their human capital, I expect I'll be completely fine with that. And I'm going to give them a margin for errors, as well - they don't have to be lucky or successful out of the gate (I *am* going to question degrees which I think have limited value, I think...but we'll see in the next 10 years, when these discussions become real for me, too!)


----------



## Compounding1 (May 13, 2012)

The deal I had with my parents for my tuition was that I had to pay 1/3rd. My parents are split though so my dad did a 1/3 and my mom the last bit. But I still had to chip in and they let me know this ahead of time so I could save. I think you do better at school and take it more seriously when you're helping fork over the cash to pay for it. 

$250 for rent, given his circumstances sounds fair for both parties. He should be able to save a bit with that and if not he needs to look at his spending.

As for your daughter, many students are in the same boat AND still have jobs. I don't think it's unreasonable for her to get a job doing ~8-20 hours a week while still maintaining scholorship status so that she can pay for a phone if she wants, or to help save for her continued education. 

So to your overall question, and as a young adult, I think they should help but not be responsible for footing the entire bill.


----------



## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Just finished reading the link you provided and there is a very important statement:

_"Especially with middle-class type parents, there is sort of this mentality that to be a good parent you need to care for every need of your child," Ms. Mitchell said._

I think the mentality of parents has also changed. Rather than trying to prepare their children, my understanding is that many boomers and Gen X parents have been trying to give their children everything they missed out on growing, and therefore feel more adequate as parents.

I linked a few researchers looking into this social phenomenon in some past threads, and these researchers argue that the metric for being a successful parent has changed in the social context. In the past, parents wanted to make certain their children could take care of themselves and prepare them to be self-sufficient; now, it seems parents focus more on whether their kids are happy and not if they are prepared.


----------



## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

To me, it seems to be a matter of degrees. I never moved out to attend school. My father bought my Grandfathers car, and told me to commute. My parents paid for my first year of school. I paid for the next two. I worked part time, watched my pennies, are rarely partied.

More to your questions. For your son, I can see him living short term at home. I know some temporary contracts are just that, I know other people that have been working for almost a decade on temporary contract extensions. Is it full time work? At 40 hours a week, a couple of dollars over minimum wage, he could be bringing home about $400 every two weeks. I wouldn't charge more than that.

Is the room and board to help cover your bills, or to teach responsibility? If it's the bills, charge him what you need to, if it's the responsibility, charge him something reasonable, if your wife has a concern, put the money he gives you aside, and "gift" it to him when he buys his own place/gets married/whatever. 

If you pay your son's cell phone bill, you should pay your daughter's. Tit for tat.

That's a heck of a life decision your daughter has to face. And it's her decision, and she should handle the bill. Your kids sound very responsible, and have already benefited from your generosity far more than a lot of kids get. 

There is a time to let kids sink or swim. I'd draw the line at anything beyond a three year university degree. 

There is also the issue of fairness among your kids. What if your son can't find work? Will you cover the costs to send him back to school? What if your third daughter decides to be a career student, changing majors and getting multiple degrees? Or maybe she wants to go to school half way around the world? Will you cover those costs too? If you do it for the middle child, it isn't unreasonable for the other two to ask of it as well.

Perhaps parents looking to help their kids should take a different approach. Instead of covering certain costs, actually hand over the cash, and let the (adult) kids decide. 

Have a family discussion, "Alright, Kids, you each get "X" number of dollars for school, spend it however you may, but when it's gone, it's gone."


----------



## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

My son's work is full-time - he just doesn't have job security with these renewing contracts. He probably brings home $2000 per month after deductions. Fortunately, he has a cell-phone provided by his work. He does have car expenses that he pays for himself. I don't mind giving him a break as he is saving to become more independent, but I feel that it's only fair he pay at least a portion of his expenses. (I would estimate his portion of food, utilities, etc are about $600 per month - but I wouldn't charge that much.) For my daughter, I feel that a summer job should be sufficient to cover cell-phone use. 

For parents with young adults, I would be interested what you cover. eg. do you cover things like cell phone?


----------



## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

250/mo is a reasonable budget exercise, pooling expenses and counting pennies for fiscal sustainability is back in style, economists say this phenomena is called household deleveraging. might be around for awhile!


----------



## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

ddkay said:


> 250/mo is a reasonable budget exercise, pooling expenses and counting pennies for fiscal sustainability is back in style, economists say this phenomena is called household deleveraging. might be around for awhile!


I'm not sure I really understand the context of these terms, but if "fiscal sustainability" means young people becoming less reliant on their parents, I don't know that I agree that it is back in style. In fact, that is the point of the article. Thinking back to the 70s, 80s and 90s it would have been quite unusual for parents to support adult children to the extent that they do today.


----------



## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

I don't think it's fair to compare today to the 70s 80s and 90s. Maybe the 30s 40s and 50s. For low income and working middle class in the last depression income pooling was common. Most people couldn't afford resort universities, new clothes for going out, soy-chai-mocha-lattes and had inexpensive hobbies. Most people didn't own a car. The only suburbs were located along public transit lines. We are doing extraordinarily well today. Working middle class aren't living in cardboard boxes. They have houses, drive cars, upgrade iPhones every year. A little austerity shouldn't hurt.


----------



## realist (Apr 8, 2011)

Spidey said:


> http://www.financialpost.com/todays-paper/Boomers+with+their+boomerangs/6682654/story.html
> Son graduated and is employed in his field but can only secure continuous renewing contract work (one company) at a few bucks over minimum-wage. I realize his situation is tight, so I don't want to gouge him, but I think it is fair he pay something for food, internet, utilities, etc. My wife has more trouble with this. I thought we should charge about $350 per month, my wife didn't want to charge anything for fear that we would be "forcing him out". We compromised at $250.


$350 is a steal. My parents paid my room and board as a student (which I appreciate much more now than I did then), I paid all of my own tuition and school costs (my Dad helped me a bit after the fact), and started charging me rent when I got a job. I moved out PDQ after getting a full time gig with some job security, but that was more because I didn't want to live with my parents than the financial aspects! 

"How much financial responsibility should parents have for their adult children?"
As much responsibility as they can afford/want to have. I think its reasonable to expect your kids to pay all/part of their own school costs. I know for a fact that my grades would have been better if I wasn't working 30+ hours a week during school, but I also appreciate my education a lot more than some of my friends who didn't have to do that.
It is up to you.


----------



## brad (May 22, 2009)

My father's deal was "once you graduate from high school, you're out of the house, no exceptions." He promised to pay for tuition and room and board at university, but he got off easy with me: my tuition ended up being completely covered by a scholarship. And because my mother died when I was young, I was able to use my social security benefit from her to cover most of the cost of my room (about $100/month). My father's idea of "board" was $50/month to cover food, which even in the early 1980s didn't go far enough. So I worked fulltime during the summers and lived off that income during the school year. I had also worked every summer since I was 12 and worked Friday nights and weekends from age 14 onward, so I had some savings to make up the shortfall.

It was tough at times and I remember feeling bitter toward him (I had to borrow money once from him to help me buy a car, and he set up an amortization schedule and made me pay back the loan at the prevailing interest rate, which back then was almost 10%), but at the same time it helped me learn very quickly how to stand on my own feet financially and to fend for myself in general. I wouldn't be that strict with my own kids, but on the other hand I'd be very wary of enabling dependency. I do help pay my stepdaughter's rent and other expenses, but she's a special-needs kid with serious psychological problems who may never be stable enough to support herself.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

I know most won't agree with me, but to answer your question Spidey, I believe it is the parents' full responsibility [those who can afford it/depending on # of children, etc.], to pay for their children's post-secondary education, if they are responsible & studious, or at the very least, help with either paying a portion and/or lending the money with/without interest. 

Why does the responsibility of parents end at 18, because that's the age most students complete their high-school education; because the law says such a person is an adult at such an age?! Why should post-secondary education become the government's [my] responsibility to pay for those whose parents can easily afford to pay? 

Students who are able to handle work and pay for part and/or all of their school/living expenses, great, but there are some programs that require all of the students' time & attention, so why not help them? There are parents who contribute zero towards their children's education when they can well afford to do so & I would not consider doing so, that it's somehow spoiling them/not teaching them financial responsibility/doing them a disfavour, etc.

For those who live at home and work full-time [or even part-time], no doubt they need to contribute for their living expenses.

*Spidey:* as for the cell-phone for your daughter, I happen to believe that it is a necessity: here is our own FP's recommendation:

http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/7-11-wireless-cell-phone-speakout-pay-as-you-go-deal/ 

*Brad:* I'm really sorry about your difficult youth.


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

My dad's parents charged him RENT starting at age 13. :stupid:


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I think the extent to the parents responsibility depends on numerous factors. First is the ability to help, if help an adult child means that they would never be able to retire, or would put on undo hardship, then I think that's where it might end. Assuming there is an ability to help, then I also think it depends on the child. As TG said, if the child is responsible and is working hard, and is unable to make it on their own yet because of circumstances out of their control, I do think parents should help. This is where people may disagree with me, I think if the child is irresponsible because the parents have raised them that way, then it's up to the parents to help up out, as I don't think they've done their job as parents in raising responsible kids. If the kids are irresponsible, and the parents have done everything they can to teach them responsibility, then this might be a time of tough love. Logically, this sounds easy, but it's such a person judgement.

I know my niece and nephews have had it really good. They have had all their education paid for, their living expenses paid, plus they worked in the summers, which they got to keep. They are both awesome respectful, responsible kids (or young adults now), and understand the value of money, responsibility and hard work. Sure they've had alot given to them, but they are great kids. I remember when the oldest one first started going to university, it was a little too much partying, and she did not take her education as seriously. The parents indicated that if she didn't pull up her boot straps and maintain a higher average, she would be paying for her own education, and the extra spending money would be cut off. That was the one and only semester that she needed to 'grow up' a little more. Happy to say, she finished off her first degree with honours, and just completed her MBA, and found a really fab job, and is not really making it on her own. Her sibling is finishing off his last undergrad year, and will be completing his masters right after. I hope my kids turn out half as well as my nieces and nephews, and if they do, we are planning the sam.e

Our plan is that we will pay for our kids education and living expense while they are in school, provided they are responsible and do their share. Our oldest (6), has already been saving money long term in her 'save' jar for university, and understand money already. Hopefully, they will both have a strong financial education and work ethic before they go off to university, and then my happy little plan will work. If not, then we'll readjust. For us, the decision of paying for school or supporting them as adults goes much further than just the finances, it's more about how our decisions are preparing them for the world when we are gone.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

The other thing I thought was really awesome was that when we were in school, my family did not charge me rent, as they thought it would push us out, and they wanted us to stay at home. I was absolutely horrified at the time when my boyfriends parents charged him rent. 

They charged him rent because he didn't finish his program (though did get another degree), and was not working in his field. They felt that he needed to learn about life, and not to take things for granted (he was a little spoiled before). They charged him a fair rent, and then when he was ready to move out, he had really turned everything around, and become quite responsible (thanks to me :tongue-new. They gave him the rent money back to help with his first down payment. I thought this was a great thing, and an option we will do too if needed.


----------



## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

> Spidey: as for the cell-phone for your daughter, I happen to believe that it is a necessity: here is our own FP's recommendation:


Just to be clear, we do pay all her tuition, books, lodging and usually even clothes. A cell-phone would be her only expense other than entertainment. But as I say, my wife and I are still discussing this and I'm starting to waiver. I don't expect her to work during the school year but she does have 4 months off in the summer.


----------



## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

I agree with whoever said tit for tat. My friend is going through this right now and she feels resentment towards her dad who paid for the majority of her sibling's medical degree, so ~8 years of school including school abroad, whereas she has the scholarships and would like to move closer to her school (she's in the final year of a master's, so 6yrs altogether) and feels she should get it because her school is very inexpensive compared to her sibling. Transparency and equality is key. 

For me, my mom allowed me to live at home rent-free while I was going to school. My brother is in construction so his school is months out of the year so what she does is charge him rent (between 350-500 I believe) per month but then she gives him this money back to apply to school when that time of the year comes up. But, she has never paid for school for either of us. And I respect her for it. When I just began school it was tough doing school full-time year round to stay caught up while working part time, but in comparison to peers who did not pay their way, I can definitely notice the difference. I worked harder because it was my money being spent and budgeted constantly and at 22 I have a much better idea of money and finances than most others. 

OP, one alternative would be to give your daughter (and future daughter when the time comes) a fixed $ amount to work with this would allow you to plan better while allowing your kids to budget.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

brad said:


> It was tough at times and I remember feeling bitter toward him (I had to borrow money once from him to help me buy a car, and he set up an amortization schedule and made me pay back the loan at the prevailing interest rate, which back then was almost 10%), but at the same time it helped me learn very quickly how to stand on my own feet financially and to fend for myself in general...


We did the same thing with our kids. It was not because we needed to do it. It was because we wanted to teach them responsibility for when they were on their own. It resulted in them taking on very little debt. They have always been responsible since we did it. Could they have developed the same insights without the costs? I don't know. But I don't believe that everyone that gets handouts from their parents appreciate it. I believe it creates an entitlement mentality.


----------



## brad (May 22, 2009)

kcowan said:


> We did the same thing with our kids. It was not because we needed to do it. It was because we wanted to teach them responsibility for when they were on their own. It resulted in them taking on very little debt. They have always been responsible since we did it.


True, but it can backfire if it leads to resentment. When they're forced at an early age to pay their own way, some kids will let loose and be very irresponsible with money once they're on their own and away from parental supervision. Extremes in either direction can lead to see-saw behavior. For example when I was a kid my stepmother forebade eggs in the house because of the cholesterol concerns at the time (mid 1970s); I didn't eat anything with eggs for almost 10 years, and once I was on my own at university it took me a few weeks before I realized I could have them again. I ate almost nothing but eggs for months after that.

You don't want to enable dependency and prevent your kids from learning how to take care of themselves, but you also don't want to treat them with neglect. The best approach falls somewhere in the middle, and the balance point will vary based on the individual personalities involved.


----------



## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

I don't think entitlement has anything to do with whether parents help out. There are many cultures where adult children continue to live with their parents before marriage, ad some throughout life. Many of these adult children actually end up taking care (financially) of their parents even if the parents don't support.

Just because this phenomenon is new in Western cultures, it doesn't have to result in entitled children.


----------



## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I can only tell you what we are doing for our daughter who is working on her Degree.She took a year from between High school and Univeristy and in that year she earned $17,000.We have saved for her RESP so we are paying all her education costs and she is paying her living expenses from her savings .She got 93% average and will get some scholarships in the fall and is working part time for the summer months.We rather she concentrate full time on studies during the school year so we are giving her some help on the rent and spending money for her second year.She still has decent amount in savings and for a student $30-$40 a week goes long way at the grocery store and thank god she loves the public transit .


----------



## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I know many parents who waives rent to their kids thinking they will be able to save money to get out on their own.A year later they are living it up and living paycheck to paycheck.My other friends were much smarter ,she charged her working kids 25% of their paycheck for rent which worked out to be about $450 a month .After two years she went and helped them find an apartment and furnished it with their own money ,she paid the first and last for them too.Sometimes it is good to take money from your kids if they are not good with saving.My kid is super frugal ,she wont buy a new pair of shoes until there are holes in them .


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

ddkay said:


> I don't think it's fair to compare today to the 70s 80s and 90s. Maybe the 30s 40s and 50s. For low income and working middle class in the last depression income pooling was common. Most people couldn't afford resort universities, new clothes for going out, soy-chai-mocha-lattes and had inexpensive hobbies.
> 
> [ ... ]


Hmmm ... I believe it was far worse then you have have described. The way my dad remembers it (he was in high school in the mid-forties), except for a few on scholarship - those going to university were doctor's or engineer's or bankers families, resort university or otherwise. Military personnel coming back from WW2 were the first low or working middle class able to go, in numbers (assuming the veteran chose education instead of a plot of land).

Then too, his family's "hobby" was piece work assembly of rugs or selling newspapers. It was a step up to be shovelling coal at the lumber yard at 13. 

One of the more interesting ones was cutting ice from the lake in winter to pack in sawdust and store. When the weather was warmer, the ice was unpacked and delivered to homes to keep the refrigerators cool. As there was more space, vegetables such as celery would replace the ice - also to be sold at a later date.


So yes - we are doing well today.


Cheers


----------



## jet powder (May 29, 2012)

If your son is causing your expenses to go up while living @ home you should increase them so you @ least break even.

I think you should pay zero for any schooling. If the kids dont have the gumption to pay thier own way through school they dont want it bad enough. It is best they learn early in life that going in debt is bad, instead of latter when your unable to support them. Any kid that even thinks they need a cell phone when there having trouble making the bills has a mind set that will always keep them poor. Look over your childs expenses if they bought a single beer, bought any lunch from a cafeterea, coffee, cigerettes, more clothes then needed, has an ipod, taken a taxi, got any nails done has been to lazy to work in their spare time or spent a single dime foolishly & you helped them out paying for schooling your not being practical with your money & your kids are just throwing it away.


----------



## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

Both my two older children are extremely frugal, (the youngest, I'm not so sure of) and all are extremely responsible. In fact, when I mentioned to my daughter that we were discussing the cell-phone but if we did go ahead I would like the account in her name even if we pay for it while she is in school, she mentioned that she might just prefer to have the money. By the way - getting the account into a student's name, even if paid for by the parents, seems to be a big hassle with phone providers. Anyone dealt with this? 

Neither my wife or I had help with post-secondary education (in fact we were both in a position of sometimes lending to our parents) and both have suffered career-wise because of that. We decided that we want our children to have that option available. I'm happy to pay for tuition and cover at home living expenses while they are in school, it's more the "extras" that I wonder about and the living arrangements once they graduate. 

I was hoping to hear what type of arrangements other parents have recently set up with their adult children but unfortunately very few on this board appear to be in this position. It has been helpful, however, to hear from those those who have been as well as from those who've been on the other end of the scenario tell about the arrangements that had been set up with their parents.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I paid my way through school, and I bought my first cell phone when I started looking for jobs (2008) nearing graduation.

It's a shame that many students don't learn how to be poor--to make choices about how they spend money.


----------



## brad (May 22, 2009)

Spidey said:


> it's more the "extras" that I wonder about and the living arrangements once they graduate.


I really think kids should be responsible for the "extras," and I put cellphones etc. in that category. My folks never bought me anything except at Christmas, and I think this was good for me: if I wanted something I worked and saved up for it. It gave me a sense of independence, responsibility, and control over my finances. And I very quickly got a sense of consequences: if I spent money on something I didn't need, it meant I wouldn't have that money for something I really did need.


----------



## Sustainable PF (Nov 5, 2010)

If your son is making $2000 take home he can certainly afford MUCH more than $250 per month.
If you told he had to move out he would figure out a way to get a roommate or 3 split the costs of rent and utilities, figure out how to feed and cloth himself and how to get from point A to point B (transit!). All easy enough to do on $2000 a month. 

To have him pocket $1750 a month while you pay the bills isn't teaching him how to live in a sometime cruel world. Yes, he is on contract - how many times (and months) has he been unemployed since he started his work? Has he sat down and determined his TRUE expenses (needs) if he were to rent a house with say 3 other people? How much could he save for a rainy day (or month)?

If worst came to worst and he simply could not find a job, his savings were gone, perhaps then let him stay with you. Otherwise he is learning to rely on the bank of Mom and Dad ...


----------



## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> I know most won't agree with me, but to answer your question Spidey, I believe it is the parents' full responsibility [those who can afford it/depending on # of children, etc.], to pay for their children's post-secondary education, if they are responsible & studious, or at the very least, help with either paying a portion and/or lending the money with/without interest.
> 
> .


IMO quite often something that is earned is more appreciated than when it's given, I have no problem at all with the parents not paying for the children education even if they can afford it (not in our case if you wondered, we help the best we can and have saved up some in resp to cover some of the costs).


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Homerhomer said:


> 1. IMO quite often something that is earned is more appreciated than when it's given
> 2. I have no problem at all with the parents not paying for the children education even if they can afford it
> 3. (not in our case if you wondered....


1. Ok., a car & other tangible stuff, but an education is far more important and no matter if appreciated or not, you can't take away someone's education [in most cases that is].

I gave my kid all the toys he wanted when little & could say he was spoiled, but he had to wait/earn it with good behaviour & did not get what he wanted the minute he asked for something, so yes, he really appreciated his toys a lot. :biggrin: 

And guess what, he's the most frugal person I know.

2. If you can afford to pay for your child's education, I do have a problem because they are your kids [not mine], and that help could be going to someone who would truly need the assistance. 

3. I didn't have to wonder; I figured you out a long time ago by a comment you previously made. :wink:


----------



## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> 2. If you can afford to pay for your child's education, I do have a problem because they are your kids [not mine], and that help could be going to someone who would truly need the assistance.
> 
> 3. I didn't have to wonder; I figured you out a long time ago by a comment you previously made. :wink:


2) I guess we are all paying for everyone'e education in form of a subsidy, the part that is not covered by taxpayers will have to be paid by the students or their parents, regadless it will not change how much we contribute to the education of not our children ;-), I know many examples where the education was covered by the parents and the kid for whatever reason decided after a year or two it's not for him leaving the parents pretty bitter regardless if they could easily afford it or had to make sacrifices to pay for the education. I see nothing wrong with the students paying for their own education via working partime/summer, or paying off the student loans after they are done studying.

3) No wonder, I am simple guy, easy to figure out ;-)


----------



## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

I like the approach of an old friend's parents, the parents paid 50% and the kid paid 50%. But they also matched his pay 50%-so maybe this was the school amount.


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Sustainable PF said:


> If your son is making $2000 take home he can certainly afford MUCH more than $250 per month.
> If you told he had to move out he would figure out a way to get a roommate or 3 split the costs of rent and utilities, figure out how to feed and cloth himself and how to get from point A to point B (transit!). All easy enough to do on $2000 a month.
> 
> To have him pocket $1750 a month while you pay the bills isn't teaching him how to live in a sometime cruel world. Yes, he is on contract - how many times (and months) has he been unemployed since he started his work? Has he sat down and determined his TRUE expenses (needs) if he were to rent a house with say 3 other people? How much could he save for a rainy day (or month)?
> ...


I understand what you're saying. It's not wrong, but I don't _fully_ agree.

Here's why:

I just turned 22 years old less than 2 weeks ago. I make $2000 net per month and live at home. I pay for my own car, gas, insurance, cell phone, food, and whatever else I need (including education).

But here's the thing that bothers me: Being kicked out.

Why do parents kick their kids out so early? I will be kicked out in January (as I have said before on this forum) and it is the most stressful thing I can imagine. I can take care of myself. I'm not worried about "mommy" not being there. Nor am I worried about having money for shelter and food (check my spreadsheet). But you know what I _am_ worried about? The _future._

I feel like being on your own before 25 is a surefire way to f0ck yourself in the long run. Paying $250 to your parents for rent is a lot cheaper than paying (in the GTA) $500 for a SINGLE ROOM in a house with 5 other strangers. Things add up, and they are not cheap. I have been on my own car insurance since 16 years old and I still pay $253/month with a PERFECT driving record???? 

I think kids need to contribute - there's no doubt about that. The problem I have is when parents pull the whole "You're an adult now, go out there on your own." statement. For instance, I have been working my *** off for years, overtime, holidays, more than one job, etc etc in order to get what I have today, and my mother will make a comment like "You'll take care of me when you're rich." Yet, I feel like she's not helping either of us get ahead.

What's the problem with a child contributing to a household? Why do you think it is that minorities are so rich compared to all of us debt burdened Canadians and Americans?

The family structure in North America is completely back asswards. We don't HAVE any family structure. (well, at least I don't!)

In any case, I have said it before and I will say it again:

It's not immature to not have kids; it's mature to know that you shouldn't.

Personally, I shouldn't have kids. And that's the way I will keep it. The kids that get kicked out early are probably the kids that were never "planned" anyways.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Well said KaeJS. After working with multiple cultures and constantly being challenged why we live the way we do, I can do nothing but shake my head and agree. It's like the incessant obsession with blasting a/c everywhere, there is no way to avoid being acclimated to the nonsense. We've become extremely shortsighted and lazy among other things, yet we still we still hold ourselves high above any other way to live? There's some kind of stigma against 20-something staying at home, while it actually makes a lot of sense.




KaeJS said:


> What's the problem with a child contributing to a household? Why do you think it is that minorities are so rich compared to all of us debt burdened Canadians and Americans?
> 
> The family structure in North America is completely back asswards. We don't HAVE any family structure. (well, at least I don't!)


----------



## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

In our case, I wouldn't kick my son out but he does already wants to move out something fierce. He's saving every cent he gets to make that a possibility. He actually wants to buy a place and is well on his way to saving a down-payment but is also facing the double obstacles of a low wage and non-permanent job status which severely lowers his suitability for a mortgage. 

If I forced him to leave, most of his salary would be consumed by rent, food, car expenses and utilities and it may be ten years or more before he can buy a place. However, on his current path, if he does finally get permanent status plus hopefully a little bit of a bump up in salary, he could potentially have his own place in a years time. So in a way there is a little self-interest in giving him a break as I think it gives him the likelihood of being truly independent earlier - which I would give both my wife and I peace of mind. 

The only issue that arose, before compromising on $250, was that I wanted to charge $350 (still a screaming deal IMO) and my wife didn't want to charge anything. I was flipping through the channels while on the treadmill the other day and Dr. Phil had exactly this topic. There seems to be a big gender difference here - it always seems the case that the women who don't want to charge anything. By the way, in case anyone cares, Dr. Phil tends to take a pretty hard line regarding young adult responsibility and feels that it is actually doing young people harm by not requiring them to accept responsibility. Maybe I should have taped the show. :smilet-digitalpoint


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Spidey said:


> Maybe I should have taped the show. :smilet-digitalpoint


Taping shows is so 1995. You can stream just about any episode from the past decade ad free, or worst case download them from a torrent. Maybe you can find it here if you want http://www.ovguide.com/tv/the_dr_phil_show.htm Although incessant need of Dr Phils/therapists, lawyers, drugs etc to constantly "fix" family issues are some of the regular criticism I get from the non-N-american types

Nice smiley there btw :smilet-digitalpoint


----------



## scomac (Aug 22, 2009)

Interesting thread. There appears to be quite a few mercenary folks offering up opinions on what to do. Well, my wife and I have paid the full freight for both of our kids post secondary education over and above what they could earn working part-time and during the summer. This has also included providing them with a car as we don't live near public transit and/or the job they were going to wasn't on a transit line. We did this because (a) we could afford to and (b) we wanted to. As far as I'm concerned, this has been a investment in their respective futures. We elected to provide the assistance now when they need the money and it is being put towards worthwhile pursuits rather than leaving them an inheritance down the road that gets spent on 'stuff' as is often the case.

The oldest is working now full-time in his chosen field and he still lives with us. We don't charge any R&B. Our expenses aren't much different when he is here vs. not so it is no hardship for us. He is saving his money to purchase real estate and fund future retirement so I don't see much need to apply forced savings in the form of R&B for essentially what amounts to providing a bed, laundry services and the occasional meal.

We've always encouraged our kids to explore and develop their talents and participate in life experiences. We feel that this leads to well rounded and well adjusted citizens that think independently. We feel we've been successful in this endeavour based on our children's successes and the comments that are freely offered by our peers and acquaintances. Perhaps we've just been lucky in spite of our choices, but I've seen far too many train-wrecks where parents tried to control their kids too tightly whether that be financially, socially or otherwise.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm glad to hear that not all parents here are brutal forcing their teenage children and/or young adults to move out of their homes! I will never understand the mentality that such a home stops being theirs just because the children reached the 'legal' age, which I think should be increased to 21 btw. I wonder why some people have children in the 1st place, just to procreate? :rolleyes2:

Some people complain that children grow up too fast these days, I wonder why? :rolleyes2:

*Spidey:* regarding your gender comment, must be the everlasting maternal bond [there is nothing stronger in life] & *KaeJS:* your comment regarding North America is valid.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

scomac said:


> 1. As far as I'm concerned, this has been a investment in their respective futures.
> 2. We've always encouraged our kids to explore and develop their talents and participate in life experiences. *We feel that this leads to well rounded and well adjusted citizens that think independently.*


+++1. Great points and exactly my thoughts!


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

scomac said:


> We've always encouraged our kids to explore and develop their talents and participate in life experiences. We feel that this leads to well rounded and well adjusted citizens that think independently. We feel we've been successful in this endeavour based on our children's successes and the comments that are freely offered by our peers and acquaintances. Perhaps we've just been lucky in spite of our choices, but I've seen far too many train-wrecks where parents tried to control their kids too tightly whether that be financially, socially or otherwise.


I wish my mother would encourage me. Every time I want to try something or create a business idea, my mother has a problem with it.

For instance, I have this great location in mind for a Hot Dog Stand not far from where I live. Start up costs for everything (including all licensing) would be $4,000. I've done all the research and even figured I could make a $4 profit off the sale of each combo, consisting of a Hot Dog, Coke and small Chips for $6, tax included. After all the research was done, I presented the idea to my mother and you know the response I got?
_
"And you think you're keeping that hot dog stand anywhere near my house?"_

...

Listen, a hot dog stand isn't that big. It's like the same size as a barbecue. In any case.... You can easily make $100-200 cash within 6 hours of selling if you sell between, say, the hours of 12-6pm. If you sell 25 combo's, you'll make $100. If you get four families consisting of Husband, Wife, 2 Kids..... right there you've just made 4x4x4 = $64 cash. And that's only four families...

Anyways... I still think it's a fantastic idea. Once your $4k in startup costs are covered and you have all the licensing, really, you can only make money. You aren't going to lose much unless you forget to freeze your hotdogs... Pop doesn't expire and chips usually have a couple months before expiry.

And you know what happens if things are about to expire cause you don't sell enough? Well.... YOU EAT IT. And save on grocery costs. :biggrin:


----------



## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> Some people complain that children grow up too fast these days, I wonder why? :rolleyes2:


I don't know, my grandmother got married and started having babies before she hit 20, I don't think we grow up too fast nowadays 

As for Dr. Phil I guess I'm bucking the trend as I'm female and I plan on charging my future kids rent at some point if they're working full-time and not going to school. 

As for KaeJS' situation, to each family their own. I am also 22 and I know if I was still living at home (moved out 1.5 years ago) my mom would be wanting me to move out. Not that we're not very close or not that she doesn't want to see me do well, but she wants her space and I respect that. My impression was from a different post of yours that perhaps your mom was similar in that way.


----------



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

the way i see it, by the time kids are college age there's nothing more the parents can officially teach them. Behaviours like knowing how to TCB are learned early in life. Perhaps not the "how" part, but at least the will & the desire to be independent & responsible seem to be laid down at a young age.

i don't believe parents can teach very much after kids are 11 or 12 years of age, because the peer influence becomes so powerful. Parents can often influence, or suggest, but the opportunity to strictly "teach" is over. Just the thought of "teaching" a 6 foot 1 inch, 18-year-old, soccer-playing male makes me laugh out loud.

and i certainly believe that parents should help, to the fullest extent they are able, with the costs of college, university, orthodontia, physiotherapy, specialized medical care & other serious expenditures whose loss or absence would mean a significant setback to their child's path in life.

my oldest sounds a bit like marina's daughter. Marina's child could choose to vegetate at home, leading the life of riley, if she wanted to. Instead, the young lady is out working, studying hard, living frugally on her own, respecting her own budget, taking public transport & just generally managing beautifully even though she's not yet 20.

my oldest has worked since she was 14 in the library of the school or college she happens to be attending. She has a good resume by now, so every new library she applies to usually hires her on the spot. During the summers, though, she wants to travel & work/study overseas. I'm happy to pay her airfare & some of the costs, because these amazing experiences are part of her education & part of her youth. When she's older, burdened with career & family, she will never be able to lightheartedly adventure overseas the way she can at 22.

like marina's daughter, she's frugal, seldom buying anything for herself. Last summer, when she was volunteering as an intern for a small NGO in el salvador, i received a note that i'll treasure forever. It was from an american woman who had met my daughter when the former's US church group was touring rural medical missions in ES. This lady was thoughtful enough to obtain my address & to send me a couple of photos she had taken of my offspring in action. "She looks wonderfully well and she radiates love," wrote my unknown correspondent.


----------



## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

Although we will not ask our son to leave, there are practical, non-financial, issues which make sharing space with a young adult a much different kettle of fish than with a young child or even a teenage. One of them is that young adults tend to accumulate possessions and start to expand beyond their traditional borders in the household. For example, my son is a computer tech and his computer parts are starting to creep into storage areas in the basement. Then of course, there is an extra car with all the car accessories such as winter tires, cleaning supplies, etc. And my son is starting to accumulate a significant amount of tools to work on his car, including an air-compressor. 

All that is up to me to deal with, I know - but all I'm saying is that there may be significant practical reasons, other than financial, for some parents to tell their children it is time to find their own space. And I didn't even get into the potential landmine of girlfriend, boyfriend issues.


----------



## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

One glove doesn't fit all, if 22 year old Johny is tired after playing warcraft all night and doesn't have that much time for school or work then I would have no problem showing him the door or demanding rent, if on the other hand the kid is attending education, developing, doing something with his life then I am there to help the best I can.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> For instance, I have this great location in mind for a Hot Dog Stand not far from where I live. Start up costs for everything (including all licensing) would be $4,000. I've done all the research and even figured I could make a $4 profit off the sale of each combo, consisting of a Hot Dog, Coke and small Chips for $6, tax included.


You should look up Japadogs from Vancouver. Maybe Toronto isn't that hip?.. They're surprisingly good, and the lineups were unbelievable for these things.. According to your numbers, they must be making a small fortune!

Edit: they're expanding to NYC already


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

They are probably wealthy as hell now.


----------



## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> I understand what you're saying. It's not wrong, but I don't _fully_ agree.
> 
> Here's why:
> 
> ...


Kaes ,
My husband was kicked out 4 days after his 18th birthday from his dad's home in Newfoundland Canada.His mom died when he was 17 and his dad moved his girlfriend in before she was cold in the ground.
My husband had $300 and a bag of clothes and today he has networth $x,xxx,xxx.xx.He had no choice but work hard and that included multiple jobs while going to School.You are 22 so you need to respect your mother's wishes and get out now ,like we have said previously sometimes parents need their space ,maybe you are cramping her sex life and you cannot put a dollar value on that :tongue-new:


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

marina628 said:


> maybe you are cramping her sex life and you cannot put a dollar value on that :tongue-new:


Ouch! I'm sure he wants to hear that! 

And the emoticon word translation is funny too... (which you can see if you reply to Marina's post).


----------



## Barwelle (Feb 23, 2011)

Four Pillars said:


> And the emoticon word translation is funny too... (which you can see if you reply to Marina's post).


 That's just... bad. Really bad.



KaeJS said:


> For instance, I have this great location in mind for a Hot Dog Stand ... You can easily make $100-200 cash within 6 hours of selling if you sell between, say, the hours of 12-6pm.


 If you don't mind working nights on a weekend (and can manage selling to potentially belligerent drunks), 12:00-3:00am would be a good time to set up outside a bar. I've seen some at a couple different places.

I'm a boomerang. But I don't feel bad about it because I help my parents run the farm. This weekend I put in 20 hrs worth of labour, would have been more had there not been a funeral to attend to. And during the week, now that we've got sun till 10pm, my brother and I put in a few hours a day in the evenings. Of course this isn't always the case, sometimes I take time to see friends or go snowboarding, travelling, etc. But it's great for me because it's like a really flexible second job that pays in room and board, and it's great for my parents because they get a lot more done than they would if they were on their own. The worst part, as Spidey points out, is that girls still just see it as a guy who still lives with his parents. :hopelessness:

It would be entirely different if we didn't have the farm. Even now, if my parents wanted to kick me out, I'd go. It's got to be fair for both parties, right? Some people are ready to have their own space again and move on to the next stage of their lives after raising kids. Once you're out of high school, you can support yourself, get a job, go to school. But I do think that, if they did kick their kids out, they should offer financial assistance to pay for post-secondary. Though it's nothing compared to the States, I am sure that the cost of schooling has deterred some people from going because they didn't have much support. I like humble's line... "parents should help, to the fullest extent they are able, with the costs of college, university, orthodontia, physiotherapy, specialized medical care & other serious expenditures whose loss or absence would mean a significant setback to their child's path in life." Good for you, humble, for helping her out, and good for her for making the most of it.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Young&Ambitious said:


> 1. I don't know, my grandmother got married and started having babies before she hit 20, I don't think we grow up too fast nowadays
> 2. My impression was from a different post of yours that perhaps your mom was similar in that way.


1. I beg to differ as times are radically different today comparing to the generation of your grandparents, who had little choice/opportunities back then. It is said that 40 is now the new 30 [after much cosmetic surgery, lol]. I would say that 12 is the new 16. :rolleyes2:

2. Nope, but I moved out young for education purposes.

Anyway, this is getting off-topic now, but I'll repeat that IMHO, there are not only irresponsible children, but irresponsible parents as well; you don't have them to get rid of them as soon as the law allows you to do so. With that mentality, why have children?


----------



## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Marina your husbands story sounds like textbook awful parenting. Luckily your husband came a long way from that point but when you get thrown on the street in extremes like that it's pretty easy to end up dead. You should sit down and hear some of these street people's stories. Their households were abusive and totally broken. No one should have to live through that.


----------



## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> It is said that 40 is now the new 30 [after much cosmetic surgery, lol].


Except when it comes to human fertility. 40 is STILL 40.


----------



## Barwelle (Feb 23, 2011)

Maybe not, Sampson: 66-Year-Old to be Oldest British Woman to Give Birth


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Sampson said:


> Except when it comes to human fertility. 40 is STILL 40.


You meant female fertility. 

Not exactly as menopause for most women [I think] is closer to 50.


----------



## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

I was reading something about this the other day, and there is strong perceptional bias about the 'miracle' of women giving birth at older ages. If you look at the incidence of complications among women older than 35, I don't think there has been any improvements.

I'm not doubting that older women now ARE giving birth, only that we think the age barriers are removed when the truth is, fertility treatments are difficult, expensive, AND there remain huge potential/risk for complications. Even if you look at the rate of miscarriages among women receiving fertility enhancements, the odds are not as good as the media portrays.

At T.gal. It is actually been shown now that this is a bit of a myth (that male fertility remains high as they age). There have now been links observed between the age of the father and 'irregular' development like down syndrome. We are as great as we like to think.


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Sampson said:


> Except when it comes to human fertility. 40 is STILL 40.


I disagree. Fertility treatments are not cheap, but I know a LOT of friends who used them. It's not that bad. They do improve the odds of getting preggers.

The other big change is the detection process which can find out problems early on in the pregnancy. This is not pleasant to think about, but it improves the odds of having a healthy baby.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Sampson said:


> At T.gal. It is actually been shown now that this is a bit of a myth (that male fertility remains high as they age). There have now been links observed between the age of the father and 'irregular' development like down syndrome. We are as great as we like to think.


I haven't read a lot about this, but I believe your comments are valid.


----------



## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> 1. I beg to differ as times are radically different today comparing to the generation of your grandparents, who had little choice/opportunities back then. It is said that 40 is now the new 30 [after much cosmetic surgery, lol]. I would say that 12 is the new 16. :rolleyes2:
> 
> 2. Nope, but I moved out young for education purposes.


Comment 1, this is true! Reminds of the Maury show  

Comment 2 was in response to a different poster.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Since 67 is the new 60, as per our govt. then 40 must be the new 30.


----------



## SW20 MR2 (Dec 18, 2010)

Our son is only 2, so I can only speak from the child's perspective. I lived with my parents through university, before I got married, and even for 2.5 years after we got married. They never asked for a red cent from me. They provided a roof over my head, food, car, etc. Everything except for gas and hobbies was paid for. In my early 20s, I was a little bit of a free spender. While I didn't rack up debt, I did spend a good portion of the money that I made on my car. That stopped when I got engaged, and at that point, we started saving for a house, which is why we lived with my parents for a few years.

I expect to do the same for our kid(s) when older. As long as they are in school or doing something productive, I don't see any issues with this. FWIW, I'm Asian and from a middle-class family, and my guess is that cultural differences will highlight some of the differences of opinion on this. In my circle of friends (again, predominantly Asian and middle class), I don't have a single friend that was kicked out of their house or even asked to pay rent.


----------



## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> Since 67 is the new 60, as per our govt. then 40 must be the new 30.


And when those 30 year olds get to 67, the govt will tell them to work for another 20 years before receiving benefits!

Age inflation.


----------



## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

Sampson said:


> And when those 30 year olds get to 67, the govt will tell them to work for another 20 years before receiving benefits!


Because by then we will be living even longer right :rolleyes2:


----------



## scomac (Aug 22, 2009)

Young&Ambitious said:


> Because by then we will be living even longer right :rolleyes2:


I doubt it. I think we're seeing the impacts of poor lifestyle choices, stress and industrialized food already on life expectancies with increasing incidences of cancers and coronary diseases versus previous generations.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Sampson said:


> And when those 30 year olds get to 67, the govt will tell them to work for another 20 years before receiving benefits!
> Age inflation.


That's right.
"Retirement age" is on its way to 70 soon, and maybe 75 in 30 years from now.
The argument that increasing life span must also mean increased ability to work is a big assumption, IMO.


----------



## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

scomac said:


> I doubt it. I think we're seeing the impacts of poor lifestyle choices, stress and industrialized food already on life expectancies with increasing incidences of cancers and coronary diseases versus previous generations.


My comment was joking (ah the issues of text), but yes yesterday's issues and today's issues will be compounded. There is so much for the next generation to look forward to..!


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Forecasting longevity is going to be tricky. With the rate of advancement in medical technology following Moore's law thanks to the application of information technology, there's a decent chance that the first person who will live to 150 or 200 has already been born. If that happens, the traditional retirement is probably going to become less relevant.


----------



## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

I've noticed many boomer and post-boomer acquaintances of mine are guilty of a bit too much coddling. (in my opinion)

I really like the 'reality check' commencement speech given by this high-school teacher.

Sorry kids, you’re not special: a teacher’s message to grads



> "The more independence we give them, the better off they are. … They need to stumble – so often parents are there to throw pillows on the floor."


David McCullough's full text speech.


----------



## Mensa (Oct 19, 2010)

The opinions on this thread have made for an interesting read, I must say! 

I thought I might throw a thought into the ring, as regards paying or not paying for university education. 

It used to be that kids earned the right to a higher education by being smarter than the rest. I recently read a stat (no idea if it's accurate) that Canada has the highest post-secondary participation of any G8 country at 80%. I think what we've done is completely devalue the undergraduate degree. My partner teaches at a university and the truth is, a number of his students are the saddest bunch of mouth-breathers you've ever seen. Just as it is in the lower tiers, he's encouraged not to fail them, even when they deserve it.

Perhaps we should consider whether our children actually ARE "university material" before we decide whether or not we should pay for it. I know that no parent wants to think that his/her child is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but let's face it - we can't all be above average! Kids are now forced to earn a Masters or PhD to prove that they're brighter than the next candidate. Used to be a PhD was pretty much proof of brilliance. Now it's simply proving that you might be brighter - or that you have more $ than the next person to continue with schooling for another year or 6.

Anyway, there's my small rant about university. 

As far as Spidey's original questions go...

I was pretty much right along with you about your son, until you mentioned that he's saving TO BUY A HOUSE. Your son's employment is unstable enough that he *needs* to live at home, but he figures a house is somehow on the near horizon? That just doesn't make sense to me. I would argue that young folks staying at home are missing out on the wonderful chaos, and the incredibly sharp learning curve, that comes with needing to share space with 2, 3 or 4 roommates to make ends meet. Have we become so very privileged that everyone should have the "right" to live like their parents do, immediately out of school, and before the income is there to support it? Bollocks! (not to put too fine a point on it  ) Saving money while young is fantastic, but I think that saving money to the exclusion of learning how the world works, and learning your place in it, is a recipe for disaster.

Just realized how very long this post is. If you stayed to the end, you're a trooper!


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Mensa said:


> [Two great points]


What a great post Mensa. I agree that there has been "educational inflation" and most people end up over-educated. The idea that more education is better is true for countries where there is less education to begin with. We're just wasting our money.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Mensa said:


> Saving money while young is fantastic, but I think that *saving money to the exclusion of learning how the world works,* and learning your place in it, is a recipe for disaster.


I don't believe that living on your own is the only way to learn 'how the world works,' as if that were the case, then millions around the world are holding the disastrous recipe you mentioned. I wonder what you think about multi-generation homes.

IMHO, independence can & should be learned at a very young age, way before moving out, starting at the age of 2! 

There is more to independence than just financial freedom. For example, most at age 18 are not financially independent, but it does not mean a person can't be a critical thinker and independent in all the other ways that count & that would eventually help a person not only become financially independent but also financially responsible!

There is a right time for everything & rushing to independence can also have negative consequences as not everyone matures at the same rate.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Kids that are expected to contribute to the household will learn more responsibility than ones that get kept. By the time they have a job, they need to pay substantial board and still do household chores.


----------



## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

kcowan said:


> Kids that are expected to contribute to the household will learn more responsibility than ones that get kept. By the time they have a job, they need to pay substantial board and still do household chores.


I agree with that statement.
I think I'm an example that proves that point. I paid weekly room and board when working summer jobs starting at age 13. I moved out on my own immediately after graduating high school and learned working different jobs all over Canada.
By the time I was 23 owned my own home outright without a mortgage and without any financial assistance whatsoever.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

mrPPincer said:


> By the time I was 23 owned my own home outright without a mortgage and without any financial assistance whatsoever.


Were you robbing banks? :biggrin:

Impressive & congrats; you must have worked really hard!


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I'm guessing that was not recently.

There are very few people who could feasibly earn enough money to own a home outright by the time they are 23.


----------



## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

Actually my income was below the poverty level (still is), I was just a good saver and had a dream of owning property for many years already prior.
It was in the 80's. I think it's highly unlikely you'd find deals like that today, although maybe, in some small towns.

I also lucked out finding a beat up old house that had been rented out to partiers, and was not even listed anymore, but I went to a real estate agent and asked him to put in a firm offer for me. It was an offer significantly lower than a previous one that she'd turned down, I found out later, but the timing was right for me at the time I guess.

I had just come back from a stint in the army, and had saved everything, also I got back what I'd paid into the pension when I'd fulfilled my contract and left.

I did take out a small loan, which I paid back within a couple months.

Oh yeah, I also made it a part of the deal that she paid all the legal fees.


----------



## skiwest (Oct 24, 2011)

In my family your undregrad was paid for if required. But I don't think any of the 5 kids really used that very much if at all. We saved money in a RESP maybe $20K which she topped up. She used that amount and did the budgeting so she was able to decide that she was going to go to Edmonton rather than stay in Calgary. It was her money to manage or mismanage.

I came back home after University for 4 months waiting for a job to start. My Mom wanted board but only if I got UI ( this was 1983) and I got it so I paid her, I think $150/month.

On the other hand as my parents got inheritance later in life when it didn't really help them very much , my Mom decided to give each kid $10,000 so $50,000 total( 1980 ish time frame). We have decided to do same thing but $40,000. Only restriction is that is to be used for post grad or house , not a world tour. Of course she can do what she wants with it now that its her bank account.


----------



## houska (Feb 6, 2010)

This all seems so complicated.

I'm a son of Eastern European immigrants to Canada. We never had much money when I was growing up. My parents helped me for as long as I needed it, including me living at home free for my first degree. Now (since they haven't exactly had a lifetime to build up savings) I'm helping them in their retirement. Any one of us lazing around or wasting money would have been letting down the family. 

My financial education came from first helping manage (from a pretty early age - adding up the spending receipts by category monthly to practice my math as well as to help with the budgeting) and then eventually managing the family's finances. Already as a teenager, I didn't waste money on useless bling since I knew how much we needed to save to replace the aging roof on our (not their) house.

I'll admin being an only child made the "fairness" aspect simpler.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I think things get complicated because there is no one right answer. Kids are all different, and it really depends on the personality, and their up bringing way before the get to young adult hood.

My niece and nephew have never had to pay for a thing or contribute financially, and have really large bank accounts for their ages. They are also some of the most respectful, well adjusted young adults I know. They didn't need to learn the hard way or on their own. Why, they were priveledge growing up, but never spoiled, and always knew that with great priviledge comes great responsibility.



I know there are many parents that spoil their kids when they are young, and it shows when they are older. Just as there are kids that deserve a hand but the parents were too hard.

It comes down to as a parent have you have to determine if you have a child who is already responsible. If they are already, then continue with what you think works. If they haven't been responsible up to this point, perhaps what you have done isn't working, and you should be changing your course.


----------

