# The Steps To Investing Many Seem To Take



## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Step 1: You hear about a great penny stock and you put in $500 or what ever and it goes down and down and you forget about it

To this day anyone you talk to that doesn't know a lot about investing will tell you they own an almost worthless penny stock that someone told them to buy. I was on the computer yesterday and asked the carpenter I hired putting in a sliding door if he had any stocks and said I could look right now. He told me the symbol and told me the story of a friend who had this great penny story and of course it tanked, I forget the symbol but it was worth 2 cents on the venture exchange.

Step 2: You go to the bank and get the mutual funds with the high MER, DSC and back end loads and hear the story of the last 10 years of performance

Step 3: You slowly get out of all your non performing funds and select or own bank no load funds with the help of the bank advisor after the risk tolerance talk

Step 4: If you are unhappy with step 3 and you go to DIY 

Step 5: You then go to get rich quick seminars or hear about great systems on the TV after mid night

Step 6: After this completely tanks you realize it is all up to you 

Step 7: If you don't gamble and you are smart and patient then you read and read and then after much time you set up your own stock portfolio

There are a lot of steps here and it seems to me from talking to people that step 3 is as far as it ever gets. Everyone may not go through all these steps and maybe I it is different with you guys but I have met very few people that run their own stock portfolios.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Hi, dogcom

Interesting post,


Steps to make money in market. 


Step 1: Become an independent thinker that is able to distinguish truth from falsehood

Step 2: Understand the truth is your friend.

Step 3: Develope a strong committment to reason, use commitment to "reason" as the standard for gauging esteam

( esteam is a basic physcological need & is inherent in everone. It entails that one is able & worthy of living & is committed to that which is good & true. Since esteam is a value judgement there needs to be a standard to gauge it)

Step 4: Remove that which is not true & replace it with that which is true with in your mental content. 

Step 5: View money as a medium of exchange that represents lifes energy ( if you think money is evil it might be kinda hard to come in contact with it)

Step 5: To your best & honest ability do research to develope a method that fits your personality that gives you an edge in the market.

Step 6: Take responsibility & have the disapline to follow your method. 

(of course your method has to take into account proper money management & if your method does not give you an edge or does not fit your personality do you think it will really work ? )


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Thanks for the steps lonewolf this does help for the people willing to invest like us.

But for most people we know or talk to it really ends at step 3 with the no load bank funds. I find it really hard to find anybody to talk to except this forum that would go beyond step 3. I do wonder if it is the same with everyone else on this forum in their daily interactions with others. However I can see people going to step 5 and going to some kind of get rich quick seminar.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I started with step 3. Then I dipped my toe in step 7, went back to step 1, and now I'm doing a blend of step 5 and step 7, and still holding my step 1 penny stock in hopes it will one day rebound.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Spudd I went to an investing course run by a broker about 20 or so years ago and bought my first step 1 penny stock it went to near zero over the years and I never closed out the account because it would cost me more to sell it. So like you I still hold my step 1 stock.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I think you have it right. Mine was Ossington Explorations. Broker was Wood Gundy then Merrill Lynch. Some experience with RBCDS and Canaccord based on IPO participation. Still dabble a bit with CCD on mining plays.


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## scomac (Aug 22, 2009)

kcowan said:


> I think you have it right.


Agreed. I think that is a fair assessment of the typical _investing timeline_. Some folks avoid the penny stocks and the get-rich-quick schemes, but it most certainly is a process that ultimately results in a DIYer. In many cases, the process will continue as your DIY strategies 'mature' over time.

With respect to discussing money matters, I seem to be of the generation where such topics were considered taboo and extremely rude to bring up in friendly conversation. With a few exceptions, all the conversations that I have about investing are with those who frequent the various _money_ forums. I wonder if this is gender related as well as generation related as ISTM that women are more predisposed to discuss 'personal' subjects with their friends and family members. Perhaps that may explain, at least partially, why women have a superior track record to men in investing because not only do they tend to be more cautious, they are most likely better informed.


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## Dopplegangerr (Sep 3, 2011)

I had my step 1, I lost 1000 on it when it went to zero in a year. The thought is always with me and has made me much more cautious, it taught me to not getting carried away and the real risks involved. It was an expensive lesson but one that I will never ever forget.

Now I am skipping ahead to number 7.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I did all the steps , I lost my shirt on some quick penny stocks ,i even owned bre-x lol. I am in the step 3 phase now ,not so much with my own investments but my husband had 25 years of mutual fund in the 2.5% MER and slowly cleaning up his mess.Actually finding this forum happened about 3 months into the process , I listen with interest to all you guys and have learned a great deal .


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

scomac said:


> ... With respect to discussing money matters, I seem to be of the generation where such topics were considered taboo and extremely rude to bring up in friendly conversation. With a few exceptions, all the conversations that I have about investing are with those who frequent the various _money_ forums.



another joke about the french & the english.

now the frenchman has a fantastic sex life so he never talks about it. On the other hand, he worries he doesn't have enough money, so he tends to talk about money quite a lot.

the englishman, on the other hand, has plenty money but he deliberately never talks about it. What he doesn't have is a sex life, so he talks about that most of the time.

my ancestors were scottish crossed with a wee drap o' the irish plus a smidgin of métis great-great-great-grandmother 200 years ago. So we tended to be clustered with the french (they all had a common enemy, the english.) The french connection must be why i'm blabby about $$ investing.

in my life, i passed quickly to step 7. Full-service brokers in the 1980s failed to impress. The 1st discount broker for the masses in canada appeared in 1983. By 1989 i'd moved completely to discountland & i thought it was heaven on earth. Still do.

going to J-school helped. Most journos are born skeptics & good investigators. There's a parallel to DIY investing. Both are about getting the story. The real story, not the pixie dust.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

i went straight to step 7. must admit that along the way I did hit #1 once.


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## Dopplegangerr (Sep 3, 2011)

Dam number 1....


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

dogcom said:


> Step 1: You hear about a great penny stock and you put in $500 or what ever and it goes down and down and you forget about it
> 
> To this day anyone you talk to that doesn't know a lot about investing will tell you they own an almost worthless penny stock that someone told them to buy. I was on the computer yesterday and asked the carpenter I hired putting in a sliding door if he had any stocks and said I could look right now. He told me the symbol and told me the story of a friend who had this great penny story and of course it tanked, I forget the symbol but it was worth 2 cents on the venture exchange.
> 
> ...


So far I have gone 2,3,6(not tanked but realized i was being exploited),4 and 7... I don`t intend to move from 7.... However, it seems that at some point, everyone attempts a penny stock or two. I guess if I choose that route I hope I will keep it to a minimal amount of my portfolio. Some would consider, day, swing and options trading to be 5. I am quite interested in these styles of investment. So far the only things holding me back on that front is the time commitment needed to trade and the actual test run with real $. I have virtually traded and made out ok. however, the game changes when it`s for real. Also, working a full time job while the markets are open make it nearly impossible to trade. Personally, I think options would be a better place for me to head. I do need to further educate myself... I have been reading, and rereading the threads here as well as looked at a few books listed by our options experts. I estimate I have at least another year of reading and learning (playing with virtual $)before I can implement that strategy. I have only been DIY for a year and have made some mistakes along the way. Each movement is a potential learning opportunity. So far I have made more right moves than wrong. Most of the mistakes were made early, have not been costly other than loss of opportunity and the lessons learned of the utmost importance. I like the idea of this thread dog. It may provide me some opportunities to avoid some pitfalls along the way.

Cheers


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## dave2012 (Feb 17, 2012)

I skipped step 5. Along the way I added 1b which is buying into gov't programs such as Labour Sponsored Funds which are pretty much the same experience as penny stocks. I tend to avoid any gov't suggested programs including the home reno tax credit (costs to do reno's end up inflated because everyone was trying to do them at the same time nulling out any advantages).

I'm still to this day dumping the last of the mutual funds that continue to boast the worst negative returns of all our investments. Should have paid the 5-6% DSC charges last year instead of loosing a further 15-20% on most over the past year. Thankfully the rest of our portfolio has offset the dismal Mutual Fund/Sales Advisor crapola of the last 8 years.

I need to invest more time in step 7...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

*Paging. Avrex. Central*

Lucid. Dreaming. Doctor. Cart.




lonewolf said:


> Hi, dogcom
> 
> Interesting post,
> 
> ...


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

marina628 said:


> I did all the steps , I lost my shirt on some quick penny stocks ,i even owned bre-x lol. I am in the step 3 phase now ,not so much with my own investments but my husband had 25 years of mutual fund in the 2.5% MER and slowly cleaning up his mess.Actually finding this forum happened about 3 months into the process , I listen with interest to all you guys and have learned a great deal .


Marina628 at least when you own bre-x you will never forget which penny stock you owned that went to nothing.

I believe today many investors may skip steps because it is so easy to set up a on line trading account these days and do it yourself. Back in the day of the like of kcowan or myself you didn't have the tools you have today. Still unless your lucky like Humble Pie mentioned before then you will probably gravitate to some sort of get rich quick direction. It seems everyone who wishes to skip past mutual funds, first looks to the penny stocks, day trading or a get rich quick system then takes their lumps and really starts to learn if they don't give up first.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I was an early adopter of TD Greenline. That was so liberating but I did the DIY thing gradually, first with a bond ladder, then with individual stocks. Back in the day, DW sold MS because her broker said to do "profit-taking". I said OK I will buy it then and I rode it to double before bailing. I told her that she need an open to buy list so that you have a place to put the money that is better than what you sold. Of course now that is cash.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

My shorter/lazier steps were 2, 3 & 7 [with some modifications]:

*2:* MFs with advisor [not bank]; prior to that, it was the safer/guaranteed type investments;
*3:* educated myself following the 2008 market crash [a process that continues to this day];
*7:* gradual MFs selloff, followed by, at last, becoming a DIY investor in late 2009 [never again giving my $$ to any 'professional' to invest].

I agree that many people get stuck at your step #3 because they are either too busy to learn & handle themselves, or lack interest in learning.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Personally, the process was Step 0.5: Save money in GICs, Gov't Bonds and bank accounts. Then step 2 and then step 7.

We must be moving in different circles. Most people who are willing to discuss investing progress on a shorter path.

Step 2 or 3 until becoming unhappy as "everyone else is making a fortune", then step 1 or step 4. The strategy/balance has not been worked out, including the time it takes. In short order, this tanks so they go back to 2 or 3.


Cheers


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> 1. Personally, the process was Step 0.5: Save money in GICs, Gov't Bonds and bank accounts. Then step 2 and then step 7.
> 4. then step 1...


1. I had 4 steps then, except I combined the '0.5' & 2 into a single step as I thought we were mostly talking about stock market investments. 
2. That was actually my last step, but not quite as I bought them in the $1+ range, though eventually some of my speculative picks fell into penny status, ie: GBG, however, they still exist. :encouragement:


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

So this is where the famous GBG comes from that you talk about T.Gal.

Eclectric12 your right of course we all had to have our GIC or bank saving account to get the ball rolling and I think 0.5 is the right number for that.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> 1. I had 4 steps then, except I combined the '0.5' & 2 into a single step as I thought we were mostly talking about stock market investments.
> 
> [ ... ]


I interpreted the part of the title that mentioned "investing" in the broader sense. Then I wondered about the first step being "buying a penny stock". :biggrin:

My first two penny stocks were to practice the discount broker's order entry screens for learning purposes and were done well after step 2.


Cheers


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

dogcom said:


> So this is where the famous GBG comes from that you talk about T.Gal.


Well, doing famously today anyway; higher than GG [percentagewise]. 

*Eclectic:* there will always be people who like to do things in reverse order. :biggrin:


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

wondering why we are talking about reverse order & about some learning steps as written up in the original post as if they were handed down from sinai.

IMHO they are not writ in stone. AFAIK there are no studies, rules, comparisons or even observations to say that everybody has to pass through those exact steps numbered 1 through 7.

those steps place too much emphasis on learning from bitter experience imho. I for one happen to think people can just plain learn. They don't need to fail or lose or be taken to the cleaners first.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> 1. wondering why we are talking about reverse order...
> 2. those steps place too much emphasis on learning from bitter experience imho....
> 3. They don't need to fail or lose or be taken to the cleaners first.
> 4. I for one happen to think people can just plain learn.


1. In general, 'some' folks like to do things backwards and/or in a rush. What would you call investors who target penny stocks first, and/or, who jump into investments [take short-cuts] without much knowledge? IMO, that mentality = act/pay first & think/cry later.

2. But it was the financial crisis ['of our lifetime'], that was precisely the reason many of us changed attitudes & turned to learning & taking control of our own finances. I don't have stats, but I would like to know number of DIY investors in 2008 compared to 2012. 

3. Ideally, no, but it was the decrease in value of investment portfolios [or worse], that woke some people up! 

4. No argument!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

the real comparison would be number of DIY investors in 2012 vs number in 2002 vs number in 1992. Or, if you please, a simple line or bar chart drawn since TD greenline opened its doors in 1983.

i don't think 08/09 was that much of a catalyst in pushing folks into DIY.

from what i can make out, the big sea change occurred with the turn of the century, for no exogenous reason but rather because of the steady movement of women into online DIY.

i've spent my entire investing life at discount brokers, with the exception of the first few years, when professional advisors underwhelmed me. One thing i noticed in the 1990s is that there were no women at the discounter. Sometime around 1995 i asked the regional manager about this phenomenon. He said about 5% of clients were women. He said this was true not only of his brokerage but true across the entire discount industry everywhere in canada, at that time.

flash forward only 10 years, to 2005, & what a change had occurred. Women had poured into discountland. Soon, women would form just over half the discount clientele, if taken as a head count. (i am not sure what would happen if a gender division were made, at a discount broker, according to total assets under management. It might still turn out that males control more dollars.)

thank goodness the brokers are helping this sea change by dropping those patronizing world-of-women-investors little chats. They help best by hiring & keeping in place visibly strong, capable women licensed representatives. 

i understand that john see has recently retired as president of td waterhouse & been replaced by a woman executive from the TD bank side. Meanwhile, a woman president at bmo investorline has led the firm with evident success for a number of years now.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> wondering why we are talking about reverse order & about some learning steps as written up in the original post as if they were handed down from sinai.
> 
> IMHO they are not writ in stone.


I'm not sure why anyone would think these steps were written in stone. The title did include "... Many Seem To Take" - which to me implies there are other paths.




humble_pie said:


> from what i can make out, the big sea change occurred with the turn of the century, for no exogenous reason but rather because of the steady movement of women into online DIY.
> 
> i've spent my entire investing life at discount brokers, with the exception of the first few years, when professional advisors underwhelmed me.


I can see this as the second wave. 

At $120+ per trade with a full service broker, when discount brokers did not exist, made DIY investing expensive and MFs more reasonable. Certainly I would have needed a much bigger war chest to begin DIY style selecting individual stocks. So the discount broker - even at the expensive phone prices of $29 per trade made a lot more stocks affordable to profit from.

Then too, the ability to use a few minutes at break to check the more volatile stocks to within fifteen minutes ago, using the internet means I have bought stock that I otherwise would not have touched. Never mind how fast it can be to login via the web to place one's order compared to phone calls.


Cheers


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

eclectic we're not writing about the same thing. All i wished to say is that it's possible for DIY investor to get straight to discountland from Go. They do not have to pass through GreedyAdvisor, IllicitPennyStockTip or any other chicanery.

along with the tsunami of women investors who have poured into discountland over the past 10 or 15 years have arisen a small number of journalists who write honourably & well about index investing. Some of these writers have polished the art of indexed etf or couch potato/sleepy investing to an extremely fine sheen & imho their research is a real pleasure to see.

all this means that a novice investor who studies the basics can, easily & cheaply, guarantee himself or herself an investment result that will never be worse than a mainstream index (ok it will deviate by a tiny percentage but let us not quibble over trivia.)

none of this was possible on a large scale even 20 years ago. It's like henry ford has perfected the model T for mr & ms InvestmentNorthAmerica. If i were in the full-service financial advisory business i would be sincerely worried about how to grow my practice.


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## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

Speaking as someone from Generation Y, I skipped all steps but the last. The only change I've made is going from $30 trades to $5 trades, and probably later this year from $10+$1/per option trade to $1/per contract. The thought never crossed my mind to have anyone else manage my money or to buy penny stocks. Even proto-investing Argo, himself in his early teens, advised his less-knowledgeable of two grandfathers against penny stocks. But alas, to no avail. People can learn, but in order to take the right steps I believe one needs to have a genuine and devoted interest in investing.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> eclectic we're not writing about the same thing. All i wished to say is that it's possible for DIY investor to get straight to discountland from Go. They do not have to pass through GreedyAdvisor, IllicitPennyStockTip or any other chicanery.
> 
> along with the tsunami of women investors who have poured into discountland over the past 10 or 15 years have arisen a small number of journalists who write honourably & well about index investing. Some of these writers have polished the art of indexed etf or couch potato/sleepy investing to an extremely fine sheen & imho their research is a real pleasure to see.
> 
> ...


wait until vanguard introduces a low cost dividend product (like in the 30s maybe) and we get a little more downward pressure on etf pricing (like into the 20s and 30s) and i agree, full service guys are going to be in real trouble .. it will be hard to ignore the difference in expense, especially if we are going into years of low returns ... 2.5% off the top of 4% ain't going to look very good


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

few can fly as straight & as true, like an arrow to the holy grail, as does argo.

but all can listen up, especially to the part about having a genuine & devoted interest in investing.

while we are on this subject may i remind everyone that it was argo who said, in april, that he was obeying the dictum Sell in May & Go Away, even though he was a month early. I believe argo said he might think about rebuying in september.

the above is sincere praise, although it will probably make argo blush & i am very sorry about that.

we can now return to regular programming ...


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## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

It's true I raised cash in April, and the positions I sold in FTS and TD are both down which is nice. Positions I am holding have been nice too, with CNR and T examples of high quality. But alas, I did not have the conviction to buy market puts at that time. Been mulling over rolling my expired GOOG put spread. Does humble think it will hold $500 through September? This last, eight step of investing is perhaps the hardest. Having the conviction to stay with a high percentage put selling income strategy despite potential market conditions.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> eclectic we're not writing about the same thing. All i wished to say is that it's possible for DIY investor to get straight to discountland from Go. They do not have to pass through GreedyAdvisor, IllicitPennyStockTip or any other chicanery.
> 
> [ ... ]


Hmmm ... then IMO, fewer references to stone tablets, specific step order, studies, unnecessary bitter experience etc., coupled with more detail about the direct route would provide more clarity.

As for the worries of a full-service financial advisory business - I still run into an overwhelming number of people who are intimidated and refuse to learn, so it looks like the full scale drop is a ways off.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

fatcat said:


> ... i agree, full service guys are going to be in real trouble .. it will be hard to ignore the difference in expense, especially if we are going into years of low returns ... 2.5% off the top of 4% ain't going to look very good


 ... but will it be enough to move the fence sitters from "the return sucks but I can't learn it or do it myself so I'll grumble and stay" to actual learning/action?

For what it's worth - outside of CMF, of twenty people I'm talking to, seven are willing to discuss investing and only one is willing to *attempt* to learn.


Cheers


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Eclectic12 said:


> ... but will it be enough to move the fence sitters from "the return sucks but I can't learn it or do it myself so I'll grumble and stay" to actual learning/action?


Ya think?
We all know at least one person who is not going to give up the first option.
Esp. the second half of the first option :rolleyes2:


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I don't think *good* full-service investment firms are in any danger. 

I have a cousin who is a dentist who once commented to me that someone said to him, "I bet you're sorry they're putting flouride in the water now; the amount of cavities you have to fill must be way down." And he turned to me and said, "do people think we WANT to be pulling teeth out of screaming little kids strapped in a chair? We're thrilled we don't have to do that anymore."

I hope that analogy is clear enough. :02.47-tranquillity:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

> And he turned to me and said, "do people think we WANT to be pulling teeth out of screaming little kids strapped in a chair? We're thrilled we don't have to do that anymore."


... of course not, who doesn't want to earn money the easy way? A dentist I know of puts out candies out in the reception area just before Halloween and during the Christmas season - and these are not cavity-free candies either. :sneakiness:


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

what is clear is that the "analogy" is a rorschach test about the poster, since there is no reason to add inappropriate metaphors about violent scenes in dental offices.

descriptions of screaming kids strapped in dental chairs have nothing whatsoever to do with investing.

as for *good* advisors, the keyword is *good.* Few mid-level financial advisors are *good.* As it happens, i myself have never met any who are, or were, *good.*

i have a friend who manages a full-service brokerage here. Head office is in tiranna. High net worth clientele. We sometimes share an idea or 2. I hate to say this, but the gaps in his abilities together with the gaps in his knowledge not only surprise me, but they also disappoint me. They disappoint me profoundly.

and yet, he's one of the very best that could be found by a retail client. Honourable, honest, bright, hard-working, motivated, responsible, experienced, backed by a house of high reputation.

perhaps MG you & other pillars of the financial establishment do not like to hear it said that the profession has reached a challenging fork in the road. They should be selling value but the majority are not. At this road fork, crowds of clients are veering left & abandoning the traditional advisors. They are voting with their feet. And look ! the upstart journos are aiding & abetting the escapees.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Gosh, humble; I thought you'd like that analogy. 

I didn't mean to suggest that my analogy has anything to do with investing: it has to do with low-cost, effective alternatives to high-priced, reactive interventions. I've been a really strong proponent of DIY investing (here, there...and everywhere) and just last week I was arguing on this very board that moving to a fee-for-service model ALSO is not any kind of panacea for investors, especially those with uncomplicated, straightforward situations. 

I'd go so far as to say for MOST people at MOST times, DIY is absolutely the preferred solution. I can't imagine how frustrating it is to become a dentist and spend your time filling unnecessary cavities (unnecessary because they could have been easily prevented) on unwilling participants. And just like with the advent of universal flouridation via municipal water systems (where they exist) the advent of low-cost, accessible financial products has been an absolute boon and wonder and nigh-on miracle for MOST people at MOST times. That's almost everyone! I'm repeating myself because I'm so convinced of the truth of this!

My comment about "good" financial advisors was meant to refer to the highly-skilled among them who are able to add value because they are addressing complex questions for people whose situations merit the level of expertise they can offer. In my view, higher-level skills are useful for (for example) incorporated professionals, in estate planning, for tax planning, and with respect to intergenerational wealth transfer. I don't think "ordinary" people need financial advisors and I don't think "ordinary" financial advisors add value. However, just like people pay others to do their taxes, cook their meals, do their laundry and clean their houses, there is a market for commissioned providers of financial products and while I don't like that model (and I even start whole threads about how people should probably DIY cleaning their own houses, too!) I can't argue that there is a desire for it amongst the investing public.


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## Financial Cents (Jul 22, 2010)

Step 1: I heard about a penny stock and got burned in my early 20s. I haven't owned penny stocks since. 
Step 2: I bought mutual funds from my local bank, invested in them for about 10 years starting in my early 20s, then got educated on the financial industry and its products.
Step 3: I got rid of every mutual fund a few years ago, in favour of broad market ETFs and dividend paying stocks.
Step 4: I only invest in low cost, broad market ETFs and dividend paying stocks. With new money, I buy more of each depending upon the price(s).
Step 5: In 20 years, I retire.


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## zylon (Oct 27, 2010)

*post deleted*

Apologies to *h_p* and anyone else who may have been offended by what was previously posted here.

The "test result" was directed at myself, and I thought it was kind of funny. 

Sorry


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

This thread has inspired me to begin pulling my own teeth when the need arises. Surely if I can invest my own money I can prepare my own fillings.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Well, as long as you don't start booking appointments with the dentist every time you need your teeth brushed...


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

They did just recently decide to take our fluoride away.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Eclectic12 said:


> I'm not sure why anyone would think these steps were written in stone. The title did include "... Many Seem To Take" - which to me implies there are other paths.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+1 To this, while I may not have paid as high as $120 the fees to investing were hard to manage not to mention having to phone the broker and not having the super fast speed to research we have today. I remember in the day you had to go to the library and pull out large books to research the stocks and the past price and chart information. I am curious if the people who have been looking at stocks again like kcowan since the mid 80's or before had to research stocks in this way. Also I remember that mutual funds in the late 80's were the rage because that was the only way to get diversification if you couldn't own a basket of stocks.

Also to mention again the reason a lot of people except maybe the ones who know better make the penny mistake or the get rich seminar thing as probably the first step is the greed and hope of getting rich quick. It is probably the same people that waste a lot of money on lottery tickets in that same get rich now mentality. I for one am no more inclined to buy a lottery ticket when the prize is 2 million or when it is a 100 million yet people go nuts when the cash prize becomes crazy huge. The only time when the amount of the prize matters is if you are in a lottery pool or buying huge amounts of tickets covering many combinations. Simply put I hold no hope of ever winning the lottery so giving me a good chance to win a million is far more important to me then almost no chance of winning 10 or even a 100 million.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Argonaut said:


> ... Been mulling over rolling my expired GOOG put spread. Does humble think it will hold $500 through September? This last, eight step of investing is perhaps the hardest. Having the conviction to stay with a high percentage put selling income strategy despite potential market conditions.



argo your hesitation is saying something to you & that something also resonates with me.

i don't recall the exact details of your expired goog. The high side was a 550 put, perhaps ? myself, i'd lower the strike(s). Lots of open interest in the jan 500s. Also the jan 530s although i'm one who would not go that high.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> 1. They should be selling value but *the majority are not.*
> 2. And look ! the upstart journos are aiding & abetting the escapees.


1. Based on my personal experience, I agree that the *good* ones seem to fall in the minority category. 
2. Indeed! And I am one such escapee. 

I agree with others however, that there are still many people who are truly intimidated by all the investment choices out there [I was one of them once upon a time], and that they do not want to learn. And of course, there will always be those that need the professionals for complex situations [that goes without saying].

*Beaver:* that's a nice dentist to think of the kids at Halloween & X-mas time.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Sampson said:


> This thread has inspired me to begin pulling my own teeth when the need arises. Surely if I can invest my own money I can prepare my own fillings.


LOL! It seems that there are endless DIY opportunities. You're now closer to retirement; just think of all the money you'll save & put into the market by doing all your fillings yourself [which are costly]. 

*FC:* sorry about your traumatic experience with the penny stock, but it seems that you, too, chose to do things in reverse order. :stupid: [I don't mean stupid btw].


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

to whom it may concern:

what have we got against penny stocks ?

all must begin somehow.

the problem is, only a tiny minority are worth a tinker's tit.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm personally not against them, but it takes a lot of cojones & experience to enter that chancy/dangerous/tricky territory; not the ideal place to begin IMHO. 

As you yourself mentioned, some of the BIG problems are lack of: information/liquidity/regulation/price manipulation, etc., so that is not where a beginner should start, but other than that, nothing wrong with them! each:


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

dogcom said:


> ... while I may not have paid as high as $120 the fees to investing were hard to manage not to mention having to phone the broker and not having the super fast speed to research we have today. ....


Then too, my mom had to basically threaten to leave the full service broker to put a bit of money into JDS Uniphase as the broker disagreed with her choice. On the good side, the broker did call her and convince her to sell at a profit when it something like $200 per share.


Cheers


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> [penny stocks] ... some of the BIG problems are lack of: information/liquidity/regulation/price manipulation, etc., so that is not where a beginner should start each:


you're right.

& the worst of the problems is price manipulation. Regulators cannot control this. Too many pennies, not enough regulators. The internet has multiplied the problem.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> to whom it may concern:
> 
> what have we got against penny stocks ?
> 
> ...


If the novice does not understand the market or basics of investing and is in the "investing is quick way to get rich quick" mode of thinking, the "tiny minority" being worth something is why penny stocks should be avoided, IMO.


Part of the problem from my observations is that those who are burned usually see the penny stock as cheap version of say BCE, CN, BNS, or whatever and "it's only a matter of time before I'm rich". Even if a friend/colleague points out the risks or the need for learning, it is brushed off as "I know what I'm doing".

Those who look (or learn) before they leap tend to have a different view.


IAC, penny stocks are a tool in the toolbox with different uses, risks, learning and maintenance requirements than the other tools.


Cheers


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Theorem : _The face value of a stock is inversely proportional to the degree of skills required to invest in it_.
i.e. it takes less skill to invest in BRK @ $82 than in BCE @ $40 than in an energy stock such as COS @ $18 etc.
On the other hand, it takes proportionately increasing skill to invest in stocks below $2, below $1, below 10c. and so on.


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## scomac (Aug 22, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> Theorem : _The face value of a stock is inversely proportional to the degree of skills required to invest in it_.
> i.e. it takes less skill to invest in BRK @ $82 than in BCE @ $40 than in an energy stock such as COS @ $18 etc.
> On the other hand, it takes proportionately increasing skill to invest in stocks below $2, below $1, below 10c. and so on.


Nortel kind of blows that theory all to hell, doesn't it? (At least when it was in its hayday)


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

scomac said:


> Nortel kind of blows that theory all to hell, doesn't it? (At least when it was in its hayday)


After Walter Light retired, the executives were all replaced by snakes. Their move of HQ to DC was the first externally visible step. It did not take rocket science to see them ending up in trouble. But this involved inside knowledge.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

> Nortel kind of blows that theory all to hell, doesn't it? (At least when it was in its hayday)


You didn't seriously think this is an investing "theory" each:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Toronto.gal said:


> 1. Based on my personal experience, I agree that the *good* ones seem to fall in the minority category.
> 2. Indeed! And I am one such escapee.
> 
> I agree with others however, that there are still many people who are truly intimidated by all the investment choices out there [I was one of them once upon a time], and that they do not want to learn. And of course, there will always be those that need the professionals for complex situations [that goes without saying].
> ...


 ... of course he was, to make sure that you visit - and often too. :biggrin:


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

i think Direct Investing at around $10 per trade is an unbelievable deal when you think how much i used to cost. TD starting Green Line was a great move for them. It eventually resulted in them buying Waterhouse in the US, IPO'ing the combined company at the internet peak and usng the proceeds (plus excess capital) to buy Canda Trust for cash in 1999. Brilliant, I think.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Without the internet trading and what you mentioned squareroot about discount brokerage I wonder what this forum would be like. One thing that would probably happen is most discussion would be of the buy and hold variety and probably more mutual funds discussions.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Square Root said:


> ... TD starting Green Line was a great move for them. It eventually resulted in them buying Waterhouse in the US, IPO'ing the combined company at the internet peak ...


Yes, trading costs are much better. I wonder if TD regrets keeping so much of the TDW stock for themselves (I think if it better than 60% they kept). In hind sight, if there was investor demand, they could have pocketed a lot more as the IPO price was $35.28 and I seem to recall the buyback was about $12.

As a small TDW owner, I though I should have been paid more than a $2 profit as the independent committee felt the buyback price should have been $17. :rolleyes2:

As a TD owner, I loved the deal! :biggrin:


Cheers


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

i recall the IPO price was around $24 and bought back in the low teens. All USD of course. The IPO was for 11% of the company and represented a little over $1 billion and was a very big IPO for the time. It became 100% owned after the buyback. The gain on the IPO went a long way to pay for CT which cost $8billion. The US portion of TD Waterhouse was swapped into the merged TD Ameritrade giving TD a 45% stake in a public co worth over $10billion. The whole thing worked out pretty well for TD shareholders.


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