# Are these new appliances designed to break down more often?



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

If you watched the new Marketplace segment on CBC last night, it was a discussion with two appliance repairmen that had some things to say about all these new appliances that last just long enough for the warranty to run out.

If the purchaser didn't buy the expensive extended warranty offered at the time, repairs can run hundreds or even
thousands of dollars during their short lifetimes..purported to be somewhere between 5 and 10 years now.

One hidden salesperson on TV was quoted saying.." up to 10 or 12 years maybe"..if you are lucky"

Planned obsolescence and complexity is the key to getting the owner to decide if the several hundred dollar repair bill
on her/his 3 yr old fridge, stove,washer or dishwasher is worth the gamble..or just buy a new one and be headache free ....for at least 1 more year.

Microprocessor boards are used on practically ever appliance now, and while interesting high tech gadgets for some, do not seem to work for very long on cooktop stoves where pots boil over, or water is present in any form.

Now the popularity of iphones and the numerous apps available for them, the movement in manufacturing is to design complex circuitry to turn on appliances from your iPhone, once the appliance is synched to the app.

Automation at a cost. Years ago, appliances could last 20 years or more. 
Ok they were not these energy efficient appliances of today, and perhaps used a bit more electricity, but they were simple button and timer controls, and worked reliably for many years.

Now according to the Marketplace show, you pretty much have to have the appliance repair on speeddial.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

They make cheap appliances because people buy cheap appliances. They are not designed to break down, they are designed to last just long enough that their favorite trendy buyer is ready to replace it. They could put better parts in, but better parts cost money and the typical customer will drive across town to save $50.

If enough people bought good appliances regardless of cost and refused to buy the junky ones, the good appliance makers would stay in business. Like for example Maytag.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Despite the myriad of brands you see, there are very few manufacturers anymore, they are all the same companies. 

Planned obsolescence is nothing new, and has been around for decades. 

It's probably cheaper to not buy the extended warranty (whichs costs about 50% of the purchase price in some cases) and just replace the item when it goes. 

I dont find that the more expensive models last any better (and may tag has gone down in quality since they sold the company, they don't even advertise being reliable anymore). My best is they are selling aesthetics not quality.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> They make cheap appliances because people buy cheap appliances. They are not designed to break down, they are designed to last just long enough that their favorite trendy buyer is ready to replace it. They could put better parts in, but better parts cost money and the typical customer will drive across town to save $50.
> 
> If enough people bought good appliances regardless of cost and refused to buy the junky ones, the good appliance makers would stay in business. Like for example Maytag.


Problem today is that pretty must most of the brands out there now belong to 6 major appliance manufacturers. Many are made in China, then shipped to NA for sale here.

In the Marketplace segment, the Samsung double door fridge with the freezer on the bottom was NOT a cheap fridge by any stretch of the imagination. It started to leak into the right crisper and some of the leakage turned into ice on the back shelf making the crisper basically useless. It (apparently) was a design issue.

At first they didn't want to help the owner because the warranty had just run out. 

However, when CBC Marketplace and the owner got on the phone with Samsung repair centre at first they didn't
want to do the repair under warranty, but when the owner found out that other owners had complained about exactly the same problem, and persisted, Samsung finally agreed to provide a new drain retrofit kit to repair the defect and the labour to install it at their cost.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Despite the myriad of brands you see, there are very few manufacturers anymore, they are all the same companies.


Yes, it was mentioned that all the major brands out there have been bought up by 6 conglomerate appliance monopolies to eliminate as much of the original manufacturing competition as possible. 

Now they are basically telling the consumer.."you can buy this brand from us at this store..or you can go over there to the other store(s) and buy the other brand(s) from us as well...we don't care either way."



> Planned obsolescence is nothing new, and has been around for decades.


But now it's going the same way as personal computers about 5 years on average..maybe a bit longer. 



> It's probably cheaper to not buy the extended warranty (whichs costs about 50% of the purchase price in some cases) and just replace the item when it goes.
> 
> I dont find that the more expensive models last any better (and Maytag has gone down in quality since they sold the company, they don't even advertise being reliable anymore). My best is they are selling aesthetics not quality.


Yes, I heard the same about Maytag. 



> 2006	On March 31, Whirlpool completed its acquisition of Maytag and began integrating the two appliance companies.


My 18cuft "Frigidare" brand (bought it at Leon's onsale for $599 5 years ago) is owned by a VACUMN CLEANER manufacturer ELECTROLUX...it used to be a GM brand a long time ago. 



> From 1919 to 1979, the company was owned by General Motors. During that period, it was first a subsidiary of Delco-Light and was later an independent division, based in Dayton, Ohio. Frigidaire was sold to the White Sewing Machine Company 1979, which was in turn purchased by Electrolux, its current parent, in 1986.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Yup, added complexity and lighter materials generally adds to reduced lifespan in many products. For many appliances, due to their low price, its just cheaper to replace it than repair it unless you can figure it out yourself. And yes, higher priced items are not always made better and can even have worse reliability due to even more complexity.

Also, Marketplace is an entertainment show geared towards getting people to watch it and I certainly wouldn't trust their "conclusions" on things.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Electrolux is a vacuum manufacturer...they are a manufacturing company, not a vacuum company. Building a fridge is not very different from building a vacuum, you put parts together on an assembly line.

The design of both products hasn't changed much since their invention. The only thing that really changes is the cosmetic design, so I don't see your concern over Electrolux making frigid air products.

I also don't understand why marketplace bringing this to light is so shocking...the only shocking part is it took the media decades to realize it. I don't think appliances have lasted more than 5-10 years for decades either. Being a landlord, I deal with a lot more appliances than most people though I guess.

Personally, I find dishwashers to be the worst at breaking down. They probably don't last more than 3 years on average.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Also, Marketplace is an entertainment show geared towards getting people to watch it and I certainly wouldn't trust their "conclusions" on things.


I understand it is an entertainment show. But from time to time they do an expose on certain consumer issues, 
even if their depicted conclusions are not completely accurate in all cases.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

My friend works for a hi end appliance store and he explained to us how two identical appliances will wear a different sticker and the one marketed as high end other sold at the local Leon's etc.I had to replace a 8 year old refrigerator in 2009 and that was when the delivery guy told us they only make them for 8-10 years now.I know a few people who had issues with the bottom freezer style so believe it may be a design issue.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

carverman said:


> 1. If you watched the new Marketplace segment on CBC last night
> 2. Years ago, appliances could last 20 years or more.


*1.* No, wasn't home, but managed to catch a bit of Putin’s Long Shadow. :calm:

*2.* True!! OTOH, purchases made in the last 5 to 7 years [to replace items that lasted 10+ years], such as coffee-machine/tv/fridge, all had problems. Purchased no warranties on either one, which would have been a waste of $s. Had a $100+ repair in the latter, replaced others.

But do consumers want things to last more than 5 years anyway, especially for items that change from year to year, like TVs? I wonder what the smart TVs of 2020 will look like.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

marina628 said:


> I had to replace a 8 year old refrigerator in 2009 and that was when the delivery guy told us they only make them for 8-10 years now.I know a few people who had issues with the bottom freezer style so believe it may be a design issue.


So it seems. 

The lady featured on the Markeplace segment, owned the Samsung big 25 cu ft fridge/freezer with the drainage 
problem in the right crisper. The water froze on the back of the crisper shelf because the freezer was located below it.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> *1.*
> *2.* Purchased no warranties on either one, which would have been a waste of $s.
> But do consumers want things to last more than 5 years anyway, especially for items that change from year to year, like TVs? I wonder what the smart TVs of 2020 will look like.


As they say."you pays yer money and you take yer chances". 
The more features on these appliances, the more things to go wrong with them.

I stay away from microprocessor operated appliances. I bought a stove 18 years ago..no electronics except the clock. I bought a fridge at the same time. It's still going strong at my friends' place as a second fridge after 18 years.

I bought my new fridge for $599 on special at Leons about 5 yrs ago. It has been working flawlessly for 5 plus years..no extended warranty..don't believe in those. I only bought the new fridge because
the older one used more electricity, that was the only reason. 

Payback on the purchase over saving electricity..probably will take at least 10+ years before I can realize any savings on the purchase from less electricity used.

TV's is planned obsolescence like no other. My old 27 inch glass picture tube Sony bought in 1991, still worked when it went to the TV recycler.

The new 32 inch flat screen bought in 2006 lasted me about 6 years. Gave it to my friend, it's still working for him today.

I got tired of it and bought a larger 42 inch sharper resolution Sharp TV which is about 3 years old now. 

The new ones are Hyper HD 50 inch 4K flat screen TVs..still expensive but coming down in price. 
http://www.samsung.com/ca/consumer/tv-video/tv/uhd/UN65HU7250FXZC

I also heard that they have come up with 8K HUD big screens and curved at that. 

Boggles the mind on the technology available today..but in spite of all the advances of these new TVs, the media is years behind in catching up..so are the broadcasters/and cable providers.
If you can get 720p these days, that's about the current technology available for broadcast.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> Boggles the mind on the technology available today..but in spite of all the advances of these new TVs, the media is years behind in catching up..so are the broadcasters/and cable providers.
> If you can get 720p these days, that's about the current technology available for broadcast.


That's because the TV industry needs to create "new and better" things in order to sell more TVs, not because it *is* visually better. At average viewing distances 720p is more than most people can see on their TVs and increasing resolution to 1080 or higher is generally wasted. Also broadcast signals are usually compressed to heck (except maybe OTA) so picture quality suffers and that'll only get worse if the bump up the resolution and hopefully they don't.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Carverman if you buy a new TV every 5 years anyway what difference does it make if they only last 6 years?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> ... The *more features on these appliances*, the more things to go wrong with them.


 ... you don't say. 

My motto is "if it ain't broken, don't touch/fix it" ... my simple (actually parents') 18 cubic " olive-coloured Viking fridge is like 30 years old (? can't remember exactly when bought) is still running fine, both the cooler and the freezer compartments. Knock on woods for more years on that steel horse. Might use abit more electricity but plenty of room to store/cool food versus the newer same-sized models (all plasticity interior). Besides I can't get any coloured one anymore to match my stove (about the same age too). :biggrin:


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

carverman said:


> One *hidden salesperson *on TV was quoted saying.." up to 10 or 12 years maybe"..if you are lucky"
> 
> Ok they were not these energy efficient appliances of today, and *perhaps used a bit more electricity*, but they were simple button and timer controls, and worked reliably for many years.
> 
> Now according to the* Marketplace *show, you pretty much have to have the appliance repair on speeddial.


Keep in mind the people talking.

It has already been noted that Marketplace is for entertainment. The speeddial comment is a great attention getter, but I bet the Marketplace presenter really doesn't have appliance repair on speed dial.

Salespeople these days are not necessarily selling the product, as the extended warranty. Sounds like there is often a lot more profit in the extended warranty, than the product sold itself.

Surely you are understating the increased levels of energy efficiency in appliances these days? A 20 year old fridge compared to a modern efficient fridge? When my 1970's or 1980's fridge was replaced with an efficient one 5-6 years ago, the drop in my household electricity consumption was noticeable.

BTW, why was the salesperson hiding?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Also add that most sales people are not very knowledgeable about their products, at least from what I've encountered, let alone the engineering behind the product. At the very least, talk to the actual repair people about common failures they see, that'll likely give you a little more insight.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

We bought a PROJECTION big screen on Boxing Day 1999, it was a massive beauty, everyone was in awe on how big out TV was. It was on sale for $4500 in 1999 dollars, and 53 inches. It still works really well, except we can't get hd Chanel, but I can't part with it knowing how much it costs, and it seems like a waste to buy something when it works fine. 

I am on the other side, I am wishing that thing will die then I can on good conscience get a new one. We have one on our room that is nine years old, and it is already starting to crap out on occasion.


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## NorthKC (Apr 1, 2013)

I have noticed that the more bells and whistles on the appliances, the more it tends to break down. I haven't personally experienced this but have seen enough posts on my facebook feed from friends who's complaining on having to call the repair man yet again, etc. Meanwhile, I still have the washer and dryer from 17 years ago (simple switches) still going strong *knock on wood* and my parents still have the fridge and stove from 1991. They've only had to replace the upper element in the stove for the first time last year. Again, just simple switches. 

If it ain't broke, don't replace them!


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

^ My old fridge wasn't broken when it was replaced, but the electricity savings are significant. 

On the other hand, when an element died on my stove, it was pretty cheap to replace it. Changing the whole stove would not yield any efficiency gains unless we entered the world of induction technology or something different than the coiled elements. That wasn't going to happen anyways, so it was a few dollars and it was fully functional again. Just like your parents.

Even if it is broke, don't necessarily replace it!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Carverman if you buy a new TV every 5 years anyway what difference does it make if they only last 6 years?


Hmmm? Never thought of that..good point. I usually don't buy one every 5 years. 

The only exception was a 'noname' Viewsonic brand that I bought at Costco in 2006, I think. It was NOT 1080p HD tv, the best resolution was about 720p, so it worked ok on Rogers cable for a year or two, until I shed those crooks ,and opted for the other crooks that installed a satellite dish that kept freezing up and knocking out the signal in the wintertime months.
They also kept raising their prices every year, until I decided to stop paying good money for the typical basic TV garbage programming and mostly commercials on TV you get these days.

The Viewsonic 32 inch worked ok for the first 3 or 4 years, then developed a shadow on one side of the screen
where the images became slightly darker compared to the other side. I lived with that anomaly until the digital tuner, that captures the OTA signal from my indoor antenna, stopped working. It still had an analog tuner input though. It was an old model obviously built in the days before Canada switched over from analog to digital broadcast, so I had to go out and buy a RCA digital convertor box and use that for a while..with it's own remote control..

I ended up with too many remotes. Then, when I found a great deal on a 1080p 42 inch Sharp...I went for it.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... you don't say.
> 
> My motto is "if it ain't broken, don't touch/fix it" ... my simple (actually parents') 18 cubic " olive-coloured Viking fridge is like 30 years old (? can't remember exactly when bought) is still running fine, both the cooler and the freezer compartments. Knock on woods for more years on that steel horse. Besides I can't get any coloured one anymore to match my stove (about the same age too).


I abide by the motto above..but...when my Whirlpool fridge was about 13 years old at the time, making funny noises, as well as the compressor using more power to run it I decided to think about replacing it.

With the cost of electricity constantly rising and thinking that the old Whirlpool was on its last legs, I shopped around and found this Frigidaire 'economy line" for $599 delivered. The delivery men moved the old fridge into my garage and I was going to call the city to take it to 'recycle heaven" since it still had the old.... (now banned...) refrigerant..forget the code R22? which was the ozone depleting kind. 

My friend asked me if she could take it and I said, sure..if you can arrange for someone to come and take it out of my garage. She did, about 5 years ago..and it is still working as a second fridge in her garage today. 

Coloured appliances..LOL!.. I remember the harvest gold fridge and stove and washer and dryer I had back in the early 70s.
They weren't bad appliances but the colour went out of style and the fridge door gaskets started to get hard and let the cold out as well as more condensation inside, so it went first. The stove I kept for many years even through my moves. Same with the heavy duty GE washer and dryer when GE was still making them. These were built like tanks! 

Lost them finally in the divorce in '94-95....22 years...with never a service man looking at them..except I did have to replace the drum belt on the dryer at one point.. by myself.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Guban said:


> Surely you are understating the increased levels of energy efficiency in appliances these days? A 20 year old fridge compared to a modern efficient fridge? When my 1970's or 1980's fridge was replaced with an efficient one 5-6 years ago, the drop in my household electricity consumption was noticeable.


My new Frigidare fridge uses between 30 and 40% less than the old one. With smart meter TOD rates, maybe with the savings realized now, it may have paid for itself..$599 + 13% ($78) = $677 initial purchase price.

Now coming up to 6 years this March = $112 per year ($9.33 per month average). Of course it doesn't run as much in the winter months as in the summer..and I also installed a kitchen window visor and fan that I run above it in the summer, to make it more efficient....and run less even then.

I would expect that it may be close now to paying for itself and if it is more efficient than the old 6amp compressor..lets say 30% savings there (4.5amps to start that is 1500watts less to start up the compressor (although once the compressor is running, it uses about 150watts),

The electricity saving over the next 5-6 years should help to reduce my energy bills. 
Better investment I suppose than just let the dollars rot in the banks at the low interest the banks are paying now. :biggrin:



> BTW, why was the salesperson hiding?


This was a Sears Appliance store, I believe from the opening camera shot. 
The saleswoman .sorry 'person" was only shown on TV "below the neck" so that her comments about their appliances 
"lasting 10 or 12 years..if you are lucky" was done with a "secret buttonhole camera" by the Marketplace "shopper" asking about reliability on the appliances. 

She (appliance salesperson) obviously did not know she was being recorded by a video camera. Very sneaky of Marketplace, but that is what they do a lot to get people to open up. I guess it's legal as long as they don't show the person's identity where they could be sued..if the person being interviewed loses their job because of their comments.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Guban said:


> ^ My old fridge wasn't broken when it was replaced, but the electricity savings are significant. On the other hand, when an element died on my stove, it was pretty cheap to replace it.





> Changing the whole stove would not yield any efficiency gains unless we entered the world of induction technology or something different than the coiled elements


. 

Induction technology is great..but just one thing..maybe two. I saw one at Leons back when I was buying my replacement fridge...$1800 + for an induction cook top PLUS a special convection oven with microprocessor keypads on the top..a real cadillac amongst the stoves.

and this is just the starting price range! You can pay $3500 or more for some of the latest induction ovens.
All this technology..and if you don't buy the very expensive extended 3 year warranty..just hope it doesn't break down on you after the 1 year warranty expires.

I also heard that some stainless pots don't work well with induction tops...certainly aluminium teflon frypans may not.


> Cookware must be compatible with induction heating; in most models, only ferrous metal can be heated.


Samsung self cleaning induction stove top/ convection oven $1799.


> All - Labour	1 year
> All - Parts	1 year
> Breakage-Cooktop Glass - Labour	1 year
> Breakage-Cooktop Glass - Parts	5 years
> ...


Would be nice to have all these technological innovations, especially the "Boil alert" feature. 

I've had to replace one oven element in 18 years on my old Whirlpool range with just a digital timer. Happened when a pie boiled over onto the element and it "popped' right where the juice hit it. Everything else is rotary controls on my oven, and it will last me the rest of my life.
Got the oven element at CTC for $15...replaced it myself.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

carverman said:


> 1. Coloured appliances..LOL!
> 2. the heavy duty GE washer and dryer when GE was still making them.


*1.* The old colours may have been dull as dishwater, but the new ones are red hot! :cool2: The white ones were perfectly nice IMO, but now are not à la mode any longer.

*2.* Still have my 10+ GE washer/dryer, but can't wait until I replace dull with distinctive & vibrant.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

my mom refuses to give up her fridge from the 70s ,it is a second fridge in the basement and we tell her the new ones are more efficient .We had a red/burgundy stove in the mid - late 70s .Our first house in 1991 came with a Kenmore Harvest gold washer and dryer set.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

marina628 said:


> Our first house in 1991 came with a Kenmore *Harvest gold* washer and dryer set.


Our set is in that colour as well [GE], so I hope they both die at the same time, otherwise, we'll have a Harvest Gold + a Racing Red. each: 

I LOVE colour, not just for appliances, but the walls, too; we have them painted in colours from Azure Blue, to Turquoise, to Ralph Lauren Orange, so who says you can't bring the Caribbean indoors?!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Awesome picture T.Gal.

I set it as my desktop wallpaper...........

I have to snoop around Google now and find out more about them.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

cainvest said:


> ... Also broadcast signals are usually compressed to heck (except maybe OTA) so picture quality suffers and that'll only get worse if the bump up the resolution and hopefully they don't.


I'll have to check what resolution my co-worker is using. He built his antenna, where unless it is turned in the wrong direction - I can't tell the difference between the broadcast picture or cable.


Cheers


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Eclectic12 said:


> I'll have to check what resolution my co-worker is using. He built his antenna, where unless it is turned in the wrong direction - I can't tell the difference between the broadcast picture or cable.
> 
> 
> Cheers


Compression differences will show up more in fast moving scenes, mainly seen as pixelation of parts of the picture.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> *1.* The old colours may have been dull as dishwater, but the new ones are red hot! :cool2: The white ones were perfectly nice IMO, but now are not à la mode any longer.
> 
> *2.* Still have my 10+ GE washer/dryer, but can't wait until I replace dull with distinctive & vibrant.


Is the 50s style retro look coming back in the kitchen again? Should have held on to that '57 chevy..could have made a 
small fortune if I had a place to keep it all these years. :biggrin:


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

carverman said:


> The lady featured on the Markeplace segment, owned the Samsung big 25 cu ft fridge/freezer with the drainage
> problem in the right crisper. The water froze on the back of the crisper shelf because the freezer was located below it.


The drain for the defrost got plugged with food/dirt. When the fridge went through it's defrost cycle, water couldn't drain properly. The accumulated water then freezes after the defrost cycle ends. It's a common problem, but an easy fix. Melt the ice, take a turkey baster and suck the junk out of the drain to clear it - good to go.

We are trying to make out appliances last as long as possible. 27 year old range that works fine. Had to replace a switch, but an easy fix and cheap. Clothes washer is about same age. We replaced the fridge 6 years ago, and hope to get many years out of it.

I'm not to keen on the smooth top stoves. The coil burner types don't seem too plenty anymore.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Retired Peasant said:


> The drain for the defrost got plugged with food/dirt. When the fridge went through it's defrost cycle, water couldn't drain properly. The accumulated water then freezes after the defrost cycle ends. It's a common problem, but an easy fix. Melt the ice, take a turkey baster and suck the junk out of the drain to clear it - good to go.


Yes, you are right. Upon some investigation, that is probably what the repairman did and he may have replaced the plastic drain hose because of the MOLD inside that blocked the drain pipe in the first place. 

Not sure where the drain pipe would be located on that model, but mine runs along the back into a shallow pan underneath. Now I haven't looked at mine in 5 years, but then, I'm not getting any water into the crisper
pans either. Her expectation was that, if she bought this fridge from Samsung, they should look after it..not her.



> We are trying to make out appliances last as long as possible. 27 year old range that works fine. Had to replace a switch, but an easy fix and cheap. Clothes washer is about same age.


27 year old clothes washer..you must have bought a good brand. I did have a Harvest gold GE heavy duty washer that lasted from 1972 to 1994 (22 years) had to leave it behind after divorce. Bought a used Kenmore replacement
washer from a used appliance store in 1996...it lasted about 2 years, motor and main tub bearing went.
Dryer is still good after 18 years and it was used at the time as well. 

Found another USED washer at the time, a GE heavy duty and it has lasted me trouble free up to this point
16 years so far.

My stove a Whirlpool has lasted me for 18 years..only had to replace the bottom oven element once..my fault..some liquid from a pie I was baking spilled on it while it was red hot. I bought the replacement element at CTC and put it in myself and from now now, I have a round catch tray for any spills from my pies. 



> We replaced the fridge 6 years ago, and hope to get many years out of it.
> I'm not to keen on the smooth top stoves. The coil burner types don't seem too plenty anymore.


I know what you mean about the smooth top stoves..nice idea because if the pot spills over while cooking, you can wipe up immediately, and not have to take out the coil element and clean the pan underneath it that becomes carbonized.

It seems that the smooth top ranges are the only cheap alternative offerings to the expensive induction tops and ovens.
There still may be a few of the spiral element ones in the used appliance stores that people trade in on newer models then sell to the used stores.

Not everyone can go out and spend $700 or $800 + taxes to buy a smooth top to cook a pot of potatoes.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Toronto.gal said:


> *1.* The old colours may have been dull as dishwater, but the* new ones are red hot!* :cool2: The white ones were perfectly nice IMO, but now are not à la mode any longer.
> 
> *2.* Still have my 10+ GE washer/dryer, but can't wait until I replace dull with distinctive & vibrant.


 ... WOW, they're really red hot-colour ... an entire matching kitchen set, including a microwave ..LOL! I'm really behind the times.

Hmmm.. now would a Coke machine make it anymore avant-garde? :cool2:


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

... dad-blast all these new-fangled contraptions...


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

Hi:

I am with Carverman ... I try really hard to not buy things with microprocessors when similar products can be had with mechanical or simple electric controls. Coincidence that we both come out of electronics manufacturing careers? I recently violated this rule with the purchase of a GE timer for my hot water heater, which did not even last 6 months. Near as I could tell, the software was still running, the relay still worked; the thing missing was the output signal that drives the relay, that particular pin seems to have gone to heaven. The replacement unit is mechanical timer based. It would have been nice to have weekend and/or 7 day programming, but the d*mn thing has to work before I can consider fancy.

hboy43


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hboy43 said:


> I am with Carverman ... I try really hard to not buy things with microprocessors when similar products can be had with mechanical or simple electric controls. Coincidence that we both come out of electronics manufacturing careers?


I try to avoid buying things with keypad controls. My microwave is an exception. My old one lasted 18 years and developed an issue with the keypad..which could not be diagnosed or repaired by me. First time it happened, I cleaned the flexi-strip between the keypad and the microprocessor/display panel..it worked for about 6 months. Recently it failed again. This time I couldn't seem to make the 0-9 digits to work again. It went to recycle heaven.
I bought a new one at CTC, after some research online.




> I recently violated this rule with the purchase of a GE timer for my hot water heater, which did not even last 6 months. Near as I could tell, the software was still running, the relay still worked; the thing missing was the output signal that drives the relay, that particular pin seems to have gone to heaven. The replacement unit is mechanical timer based. It would have been nice to have weekend and/or 7 day programming, but the d*mn thing has to work before I can consider fancy.



Sometimes you have no choice but buy these microcontroller "gizmos", as pretty much everything these days out there has one in it, and they are made to be disposable, not repairable. 

I had a computer modem go on me after less than 9 months of service. Bought it on the internet. 
Had to find one fast in town and bought two..one for a spare, because if I can't get on the internet, I'm pretty much isolated. My computer/modem and ATA adapter is the exception to my KISS rule...spent too many years troubleshooting big systems with lots of complexity at Nortel. I don't want to get into that again in my retirement years. 

I had one problem with my microcontroller furnace board 4-5 years ago..the fan relay pc track kept getting overheated and causing an open circuit at the relay pin soldered on the pc. To fix that, I just used a piece of copper wire and some solder to bridge the circuit track. Saved myself a few hundred dollars in the process. It has worked reliably since the repair.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

I wish some appliances would have remained basic & simple, just less bulky, lol.

And speaking of microwaves, wonder what Dr. Percy Spencer would think of the smart microwave oven versions of today?

Carverman, you probably still have one of these?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> I wish some appliances would have remained basic & simple, just less bulky, lol.
> 
> And speaking of microwaves, wonder what Dr. Percy Spencer would think of the smart microwave oven versions of today?
> 
> Carverman, you probably still have one of these?



I think it has too many buttons meself.:biggrin: But back in the good ole days, before the dawn of micro-miniaturization ...
these kinds of ovens had a purpose. Lets not forget the first programmable digital computer with vacumn tubes that required a huge building to house it...the ENIAC.










> The US-built ENIAC (Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer) was the first electronic programmable computer built in the US. Although the ENIAC was similar to the Colossus it was much faster and more flexible. It was unambiguously a Turing-complete device and could compute any problem that would fit into its memory. Like the Colossus, a* "program" on the ENIAC was defined by the states of its patch cables and switches, a far cry from the stored program electronic machines that came late*r. Once a program was written, it had to be mechanically set into the machine with manual resetting of plugs and switches.





> It combined the high speed of electronics with the ability to be programmed for many complex problems. *It could add or subtract 5000 times a second, a thousand times faster than any other machine.* It also had modules to multiply, divide, and square root. High speed memory was limited to 20 words (about 80 bytes). *The machine was huge, weighing 30 tons, using 200 kilowatts of electric power and contained over 18,000 vacuum tubes, 1,500 relays*, and hundreds of thousands of resistors, capacitors, and inductors.


Imagine your power bill with one of those! You would need a substation to run it!

Of course, I remember back in the 70s, when there was no PCs available, cell phones were unheard of, and the microchip processors (Intel) etc had not been invented yet.

The HP and DIGITAL computers I worked on had "core memory" and 4kbytes was average memory size. 8k to 16k was an expensive memory expansion and these were huge printed circuit cards. These used minature ferrite toroidal cores (donuts) and had 3 wires going through each one..read, write and select. 

Ah those were the "good ole days"..I could bootstrap one of them babies with the bitswitch register faster than ...well lets leave that for another story shall we?:friendly_wink:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ LOL!!! Where did you find this relic calculator, not at DOL I presume? Actually I have an "electronic" calculator that weighs at least 10 lbs, solid steel encasing ... that was given to me by an old landlady's hubby who used to fix these machines (as well as photocopiers). This relic might be worth quite abit if it's not already in a museum ... I know old "cash" registers (similar looking) are worth pounds o' dollars these days $$.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ LOL!!! Where did you find this relic calculator, not at DOL I presume? Actually I have an "electronic" calculator that weighs at least 10 lbs, solid steel encasing ... that was given to me by an old landlady's hubby who used to fix these machines (as well as photocopiers). This relic might be worth quite abit if it's not already in a museum ... I know old "cash" registers (similar looking) are worth pounds o' dollars these days $$.


Rats..you know Beav, back in the 60s, I was given an old UNDERWO0D typewriter..my first one..that I learned to type on sort-of.
I tossed it, because the letter type levers kept jamming on me..and the ribbons would get twisted. 
Bet it would be worth a small fortune now...but then again..maybe not..
unless I could get a National museum to part with some of their taxpayer funded cash.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

Remember the Kurta/Curta? It was 100% manual (no batteries)..... It was a handheld complexity of whirring gears and switches. Imagine surveyors in the wild having to do survey trigonometry. It was clumsy but it worked, and I am certain that most of the rural property lines and road surveys were done this way.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ ... just how old are you steve41? every one of your posts is giving your age away ... except for the Warmista term. Still ROFL on that ... :highly_amused: ... young at heart. each:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> Rats..you know Beav, back in the 60s, I was given an old UNDERWO0D typewriter..my first one..that I learned to type on sort-of.
> I tossed it, because the letter type levers kept jamming on me..and the ribbons would get twisted.
> *Bet it would be worth a small fortune now*...but then again..maybe not..
> unless I could get a National museum to part with some of their taxpayer funded cash.
> ...


 ... I bet it's worth more than a buck for sure since that was "given" to you. At least your typewriter could be worth ALOT more than mine's - a Singer that was bought with my entire piggy-bank of silver dollars, etc. ... I can't remember exactly how much I paid but it wasn't cheap either. Still works and in mint condition. :biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ...At least your typewriter could be worth ALOT more than mine's - a Singer that was bought with my entire piggy-bank of silver dollars, etc. ... I can't remember exactly how much I paid but it wasn't cheap either. Still works and in mint condition. :biggrin:


Singer..they were into everything back then...sewing machines - " old treadmill types too", vacuum cleaners...kitchen appliances and farm appliances even.
It's an international brand..in Malaysia, their brand is on almost everything, ranges, refrigerators, gas water heaters..

Back before WWI, they even made motorcycles..now those would be worth a pretty penny to collectors..and probably still working ....over a 100 years later.








They even have an aerospace offshoot ....not your grandmothers sewing machine company any more.


> The 767 simulator is one of a long line of such devices built by the Link flight simulation *division of the Singer Company.* Link, based in Binghamton, N.Y., is said to control about 40 percent of the market for custom-tailored military and commercial flight trainers.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Speaking of archaism, then & now:









*Timeline of Toasty Trends *- warning, if you're a toaster collector, you might be 'weird'. :biggrin:
http://todaysvintage.com/collecting/contentview.asp?c=272402

Following an incident some years ago, that triggered the fire alarm [when an unsupervised pop-tart got stuck in a toaster], we now have a wide 4 slice toaster, almost 1/2 the size of a microwave, lol.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> *Timeline of Toasty Trends *- warning, if you're a toaster collector, you might be 'weird'. :biggrin:
> Following an incident some years ago, that triggered the fire alarm [when an unsupervised pop-tart got stuck in a toaster], we now have a wide 4 slice toaster, almost 1/2 the size of a microwave, lol.


I actually prefer those old flip type English toasters with the two doors. They make nicer tasting toast and don't dry out the bread like the more modern popups do.
The only problem with those was that you had to watch them like a hawk..otherwise the fire alarms would go off 
Guessing when one side of the bread was toasted to perfection is an art.. not too white, not too dark..carmelized just nicely..ummm!each:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Toronto.gal said:


> Speaking of archaism, then & now:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 ... OMG ... there are actually toasters-collectors ... I thought collecting the toasts that had an image of Jesus was already eccentric enough ... think eBay ka-chings $$$! :biggrin: 



> Following an incident some years ago, that triggered the fire alarm [when an unsupervised pop-tart got stuck in a toaster], we now have a wide 4 slice toaster, almost 1/2 the size of a microwave, lol


 ... on a serious note regarding proper use of your toaster, never stick a fork (metallic or plastic) while it's still plugged in unless you want to end up like toast or getting a free electrocution ... I got zinged!


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> Singer..they were into everything back then...sewing machines - " old treadmill types too", vacuum cleaners...kitchen appliances and farm appliances even.
> It's an international brand..in Malaysia, their brand is on almost everything, ranges, refrigerators, gas water heaters..
> 
> Back before WWI, they even made motorcycles..now those would be worth a pretty penny to collectors..and probably still working ....over a 100 years later.
> ...


 ... I had no idea that Singer made all those appliances and even motorcyles/aerospace offshoot?!!... all I knew was that they made great sewing machines (for mom).


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... OMG ... there are actually toasters-collectors ... I thought collecting the toasts that had an image of Jesus was already eccentric enough ... think eBay ka-chings $$$! :biggrin:
> 
> ... on a serious note regarding proper use of your toaster, never stick a fork (metallic or plastic) while it's still plugged in unless you want to end up like toast or getting a free electrocution ... I got zinged!


Good thing you were not "toast" Beav. What would Jesus do?:black_eyed:


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## newfoundlander61 (Feb 6, 2011)

After watching MarketPlace last week about this I think most people should just by the simplest stove etc when they need one. Many that are advertised as good on energy on not really and the difference you save is very little. Less computer board & stuff the better. We used simple stoves/fridges for years growing up why can't we don it today.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

newfoundlander61 said:


> Less computer board & stuff the better. *We used simple stoves/fridges for years growing up why can't we do it today?*.


Hmm? Because we are now conditioned that unless it is computerized and automated, it's old junk? With the iphone generation, (at least those that can afford these high tech appliances), it makes it so much easier not to have to actually look in a cookbook to try to actually read and understand the instructions in "English" to cook your package of Kraft dinner. 


You simply download the "KD app", synch the high tech stove to your iphone and voila!... other than putting in the water in the pot and pouring in the pasta..the stove does all the mindless work of actually cooking while you text your friends and catch up on your boring lifestyle. 

When it's ready to pour in the cheese powder, you get a recorded announcement from the high tech stove...
"dinner's ready!, " then you can sit down to a gourmet meal of KD and maybe hotdogs, 
because after buying these $2000+ high tech appliances, you can only afford basic foods, and the food bank.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

You know, one thing I really dislike about 'digital everything' is that you can't fix things when they are malfunctioning. Say back in the day your record player isn't working- if you have half a brain, you can take it apart, find the issue, and replace the belt etc. Now, if your CD player or whatever isn't working all you can do is swear at the stupid thing. Drives me nuts when something you expect to work just doesn't and there is no visible reason.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

indexxx said:


> *if you have half a brain,* you can take it apart, find the issue, and replace the belt etc.


I guess I don't, because my fixing grade = an F. I'm so bad at assembling/fixing, that it's not even funny. :hopelessness: 

*Beav:* no worries, I don't stick forks/knives/spoons in plugged appliances; I guess I have some brains after all. :biggrin:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Toronto.gal said:


> I guess I don't, because my fixing grade = an F. I'm so bad at assembling/fixing, that it's not even funny. :hopelessness:
> 
> *Beav:* no worries, I don't stick forks/knives/spoons in plugged appliances; I guess I have some brains after all. :biggrin:


 ... at least more brains than me. 

And did you know a toaster (upstanding/popup) can make a very very quick grilled cheese sandwich? Delicious! but messy ... :biggrin:


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> 1. at least more brains than me.
> 2. did you know a toaster (upstanding/popup) can make a very very quick grilled cheese sandwich? Delicious! but messy ... :biggrin:


*1.* Who reads/comprehends/enjoys Stephen Hawking's books?
*2.* No, I didn't know. Ok., as u said you're a lil behind the times when it comes to modern appliances [not math], here are other messy-free/inexpensive choices: :biggrin:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Toronto.gal said:


> *1.* Who reads/comprehends/enjoys Stephen Hawking's books?
> *2.* No, I didn't know. Ok., as u said you're a lil behind the times when it comes to modern appliances [not math], here are other messy-free/inexpensive choices: :biggrin:


 ... re 1. I do ... and am still reading on my 2nd year ... whether I understand is another story. 

2. Actually I got one of those on the left ... still not fast enough as my multi-use standard popup toaster. 

Now the one on the right I haven't seen ... is it plug and use or do you have to put it on a stove to grill/toast? I can think if another use of it... getting wrinkles out of my blouse ... :biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> Now the right on the right I haven't seen ... is it plug and use or do you have to put it on a stove to grill/toast? I can think if another use of it... getting wrinkles out of my blouse ... :biggrin:


Beav; It's "plug n' play"..you have to get with the times as they say. :biggrin: 
The manual sandwich toaster (apparatus with the two handles that close on the grilled cheese sandwich), has to have an external source of radiant heat.

That could be a stove top or a campfire. Since there is no digital timer provided to sync with yer iphone
on these manually operated toasters, you are saddled with the manual chore of guessing when the bread is toasted sufficiently on both sides and the cheese is slightly melted but
not too much, as too overflow of the cheese slice on the sides, makes a mess of things. 


So the secret is: *STATE MACHINE STEPS 1-8 using the "old melon",* not a microcontroller

1) get yer heat source hot enough. (READY?)
2) place one slice of bread (buttered on one side only next to the cheese slice) (DONE?)
3) butter other slice and place over the cheese slice in the manual toaster (DONE?)
4) close toaster (DONE?)) 
5) hold onto toaster and place on heat source (WAIT)
6) SET MANUAL TIMER loop; count for x minutes to toast one side (exit counter loop) 
7 flip over toaster apparatus (DONE?)
8 hold onto toaster and place on heat source (repeat 5,6, maybe 7 and maybe 8) The last two steps are
"fuzzy logic". 

Troubleshooting: I will use the logical programming statements here; IF, THEN, ELSE, EXIT, RETURN 

* IF *(6 manual timer expired) does not yield golden brown toast on opening toaster apparatus, *THEN GOTO*
(5) with the same side
*ELSE*
(6) SET MANUAL TIMER and (7)
* IF* (8) is satisfied, no need to repeat 5 *GOTO EXIT *and enjoy ..ummm, your personal grilled cheese sandwich

*ENDIF; EXIT*

Now you see why society needs digital appliances? :biggrin:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ all those steps to make a grilled cheese sandwich???!!! :eek2: I'll stick with my "manual" standard pop-up toaster ... and that doesn't need anything "digital". 

Btw, did you have to write programming ... sounds like it with the "If, ThenGoto, Else, Endif, Exit" loop ... and did you enjoy the filling/marking in those bubble-cards? :biggrin:

Hmmm... now I'm reminded to dust off my chocolate fondue for tonight's continuing Polar Vortex ... freezying! :cold:


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

You can make a toasted cheese sandwich in a toaster if you lay it on its side. One of those bagel toasters with the wide slot.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... at least more brains than me.
> 
> And did you know a toaster (upstanding/popup) can make a very very quick grilled cheese sandwich? Delicious! but messy ... :biggrin:


You can actually buy toaster bags for making the sandwiches. It's some heat safe bag you put your sandwich in, and it catches the mess. It is reusable.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Toaster bags? That's news to me .. I suppose they would eventually come out with such conveniences considering they have "plastic" bakewares now. I don't suppose these toaster bags would be cheap on a per unit cost ... that grilled cheese sandwich just got abit more expensive for me to make on infrequent occasions. :distant:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ all those steps to make a grilled cheese sandwich???!!! :eek2: I'll stick with my "manual" standard pop-up toaster ... and that doesn't need anything "digital".


I understand. I'm just saying what it takes to get an appliance programmed to work with a microcontroller of some type, even if it's a simple chip controller. Besides the internal program, you need feedback inputs to determine what the next state will be and that determines the output condition.



> Btw, did you have to write programming ... sounds like it with the "If, ThenGoto, Else, Endif, Exit" loop ... and did you enjoy the filling/marking in those bubble-cards?


Bubble cards??? Fortunately that was just before the time I got into the digital age. I did a lot of programming for Nortel in HLL (High Level Language), which then was compiled down to machine code by a proprietary compiler that would parse your HLL code, THEN give you error statements if it wasn't happy with the code structure.

IF it PASSED, then you would go onto the next step, to see if your programme/code actually worked on the computer...sometimes it did..sometimes it didn't ..ELSE you had to do some debugging to find out why.




> now I'm reminded to dust off my chocolate fondue for tonight's continuing Polar Vortex ... freezying! :cold:


Yep, that EVil Polar Vortex is back again...and its only mid January!
How many more homeless will we lose before it starts to warmup again in April, maybe May..or even June? :biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Toaster bags? That's news to me .. I suppose they would eventually come out with such conveniences considering they have "plastic" bakewares now. I don't suppose these toaster bags would be cheap on a per unit cost ... that grilled cheese sandwich just got abit more expensive for me to make on infrequent occasions. :distant:


Beav, no need for those PTFE toaster bags.



> Set of 2 NoStick Toast It Toaster Bags
> Price:	CDN$ 21.54 FREE SHIPPING.
> Set contains 2 Reusable (up to 50 times) toaster bags, 100% non-stick one wipe clean


All you need is an electric frying pan (so far at least, they are not digital or synced to your iphone),
or perhaps even a manual one with that wonderful Dupont inspired teflon coating,
warm it up to 350F/(176C) on the stove top.

Take two slices of white bread, butter on one side, put a slice of cheese in the middle and put it on the pan. Wait until the bottom slice is getting golden brown when the cheese is starting to look like it's melting, flip over using a spatula and do the other side.

That's it..nice golden brown toasted bread and melted cheese.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ yes, bubble cards - where you fill in the bubble (O) on the card with a lead pencil ... my older sibling's friend did some programming (project) like that in his high school days .. and I remembered once his program needed something like 100 of those cards (can't remember exactly how many rows of bubbles were required but more than 10 on each card for sure so it's like 1,000 bubbles to fill in a minimum) and there was no numbering on those cards ... and so the fun began when he dropped those cards and they got all mixed up (yes, the smartie himself didn't number the cards either) ... I still remember the expression on his face when he explained what happened. :biggrin: Oh, what fun!

Oh that fondue was great - now I'm ready to battle the Polar Vortex on this morning's shopping at -16c! more like -26c with the windchill ... brrrr....


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ oh yeah, why didn't I think of the frying pan? Oh, because it hasn't been cleaned (not mine's) for xx years? :biggrin: But thanks for this 2nd method - thinking outside of the box. :biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ yes, bubble cards - where you fill in the bubble (O) on the card with a lead pencil ... my older sibling's friend did some programming (project) like that in his high school days ..


Bubble cards? Are you sure you are not thinking of "mark sense cards"? which required a special pencil to mark them?



> Developed at IBM, these cards had printed ovals that could be marked with a special electrographic pencil. Cards would typically be punched with some initial information, such as the name and location of an inventory item. Information to be added, such as quantity of the item on hand, would be marked in the ovals. Card punches with an option to detect mark sense cards could then punch the corresponding information into the card.


My brother as a Waterloo Comp-Sci student, got a summer job at IBM as a filing clerk back in the late 60s. He hated it, mindless job, but it paid good money as a student. He remembers filing those punch cards that IBM used back then for data storage.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> Bubble cards? Are you sure you are not thinking of "mark sense cards"? which required a special pencil to mark them?
> 
> My brother as a Waterloo Comp-Sci student, got a summer job at IBM as a filing clerk back in the late 60s. He hated it, mindless job, but it paid good money as a student. He remembers filing those punch cards that IBM used back then for data storage.


 ... is that what you called them - mark sense cards? I called them bubble-cards due to the # of (0) bubbles that had to be filled in on each card (can't recall use of a special pencil as I was (and still am) no techie) and yes, they needed to be "punched" eventually for programming(?). Looking at that stack of all "mixed-up" cards was painful ... not for me though :biggrin:.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Toaster bags? That's news to me .. I suppose they would eventually come out with such conveniences considering they have "plastic" bakewares now. I don't suppose these toaster bags would be cheap on a per unit cost ... that grilled cheese sandwich just got abit more expensive for me to make on infrequent occasions. :distant:


They are reusable. My friend got them in the US where they were under $10 for 2 so about 10 cents a use. I don't have them, as I have a toaster oven. 

Grilled cheese is our back for the few times we don't have enough leftovers for lunch. We make grilled cheese using all (not at the same time ). 

Bake in toaster oven
Microwave then toast in toaster oven (my kids don't like their bread too toasy but really melty
Panini maker
I had a sandwich maker, but bought it to my cabin
Frying pan
George Foreman grill 
Shallow waffle maker, I only did that once because I was making waffles and then the little one wanted grilled chill waffle pancakes. It wasn't awful, and it was heart shaped too


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> They are reusable. My friend got them in the US where they were *under $10 for 2 so about 10 cents a use. * I don't have them, as I have a toaster oven.
> 
> Grilled cheese is our back for the few times we don't have enough leftovers for lunch. We make grilled cheese using all (not at the same time ).
> 
> ...


 ... based on 10c per use, each bag can be used about 40-50 times before they break down. They must be very durable - what are they made out of? I have to admit I have not researched these kind of tough-bags (sounds like space-age to withstand constant re-heating). Interesting.

7 appliances to make toasts, waffles (yummy but don't have one), hot sandwiches, etc. you're well-equippped. Cheers,


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