# Don't be like my dad



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This post is partly to discourage others from acting like my dad, and partly asking for help on how I can deal with him.

My 74 year old dad disappeared for a long time on the weekend and my mom didn't know where he went. Hearing this, I immediately suspected that he was going around socializing and having fun; it's been clear since day one that he is not concerned about the virus. It seems I was right. My dad had gone to visit friends and had a social gathering (several people were there; a party) _and then_ he visited 2 to 3 different small stores. All of these were non-essential shopping and the whole day was really just meant as fun activities for himself, not important tasks, and not even to buy things my mom needed!

I told him that this makes me nervous and reminded him the government's advice: we are all supposed to avoid non essential outings and avoid gatherings with close proximity. I said this puts others in the household (notably my mom, who's in worse health) at risk. In response, he yelled at me a bunch and got very aggressive, to the point my mom stepped in and begged us not to fight.

He yelled, and these are almost exact quotes: "I'll do what I want! Don't tell me what to do in my own house! I don't have to answer to you!"

Flustered, I texted a few friends of mine. Amazingly, about half of my friends reported similar situations with their own dads in their 60s and 70s who refuse to change their behaviours. So I am starting to see how COVID-19 keeps spreading and how it will continue to spread.

Is there anything I can do? I'm obviously keeping a lot of distance from my dad, avoiding getting within several meters. I'm assuming he will pick up the virus any moment.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

The only thing I can think of is if your mom can stay somewhere else until this goes away.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I'm sorry to hear that story. It is not just older people who have this attitude either. 

The only thought that come to my mind is to advise your Mother to confront him and say something like, 'when you behave this way you are not only risking your own life you are risking my life. If you don't care enough about my life to stay home, then I am leaving', and mean it.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

cainvest said:


> The only thing I can think of is if your mom can stay somewhere else until this goes away.


Like with another relative, something like that? Seems like a good idea


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Like with another relative, something like that? Seems like a good idea


Family would be best I think, at least your mom won't be at a higher level of risk. Who knows, maybe your dad will get the message then?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

My dad (71) was being pretty flippant about things in early March (when it became obvious to me that things were going to get bad). I haven't seen him since then (other than whatsapp). I think now he is taking it more seriously. I was a bit worried because I know some of his friends are not the type to be careful about exposure in public and were still going to want to swing by for a chat. From what I understand though they are doing a good job of isolating.

Maybe a more fruitful line of conversation would be to talk to him about why he went out. If it is because he was feeling lonely/wanted to socialize, maybe help him figure out facetime/video chat with his friends? When trying to influence people, attacking them directly doesn't work. Better to have conversations like 'when you go out and break social distancing, it makes me feel like you don't value my/mother's safety, is that your intent?" I think we need to have a bit of empathy in these situations. Some people are less suited to the isolation and might need more support.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

My parents are around 80 and they're going nowhere. We get their groceries, I don't think they've left the house/yard in 3 weeks.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

This is one problem with ongoing quarantines, people are yelling and screaming, at the edge of violence.
Domestic violence and other issues are going to flare up.

There are significant (yet small fraction) who think this is all silly and overblown. Not much you can do about it.
What is your mom going to do, leave ? Try to get him thrown out?


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Who along with governments could have stopped this virus instead they waited for the world to get the virus then take away our freedoms. A lot of people lost their life to give us our freedoms. We are in a danger zone our freedoms are being taken away. The media & government can not be trusted i.e., having states of emergency for even bogus global warming.

The global warming numbers could not be trusted by our so called scientists, media & government. What makes you think the numbers concerning this virus can be trusted. There are a lot of reports of people not dying of covide that are being reported of Covid to get the numbers up.

Come on they tried to cause panic by hair spray destroying the ozone, The wet lands, acid rain, global warming, Y2K, climate change. It is none stop.

Hundreds of thousands die of the flu every year & our freedoms are not taken away.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

_Hundreds of thousands die of the flu every year & our freedoms are not taken away. _

Hundreds of thousands will still die from the flu every year, as well as many people in accidents, from disease or other reasons.

COVID -19 is just adding to the numbers.......an additional hundreds of thousands. Our healthcare system isn't built to handle that kind of surge.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

If he's not symptomatic why not encourage him to go out where he can keep his distance? Go for a drive in the country with a picnic lunch with the wife or go fishing...old farts (and their wives) love ice fishing (I do). Anything is better than watching Price is Right reruns or Netflix.

I usually go mountain biking for a couple hours a day...never see anyone as the trails are still muddy & weather pretty cool. Often I take wifey out to do some 4x4ing in the Jeep with a couple cold road pops in the afternoon...

Lots of things to do without human contact unless you live in a larger city.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Like with another relative, something like that? Seems like a good idea


Maybe with you?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

sags said:


> _Hundreds of thousands die of the flu every year & our freedoms are not taken away. _
> 
> Hundreds of thousands will still die from the flu every year, as well as many people in accidents, from disease or other reasons.
> 
> COVID -19 is just adding to the numbers.......an additional hundreds of thousands. Our healthcare system isn't built to handle that kind of surge.


Deaths from COVID are going to be in the millions. Ontario is projecting best case 0.2-1 death per 1000 population (3k to 15k deaths out of ~15M). Apply that to the world population and you get 1.5M - 7M deaths. When this gets into African/Indian/South American slums it is going to be carnage. A bad flu year is 0.5M deaths, without anywhere near the effort required to keep COVID-19 deaths down to the 1.5-7M range.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

andrewf said:


> When this gets into African/Indian/South American slums it is going to be carnage.


They are already burning bodies in the streets. They aren't equipped for testing, documenting or freezing bodies and the developed world is not available to help.

It's also not on the news because reporters are focused locally and there's no way to get real time data from countries that just aren't testing/treating etc

Word on the street is there might already be marshall law in Brazil


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

At his age give him the info on what it's like to be intubated.

And if it comes to that his chances of survival would not be good.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

m3s said:


> They are already burning bodies in the streets. They aren't equipped for testing, documenting or freezing bodies and the developed world is not available to help.
> 
> It's also not on the news because reporters are focused locally and there's no way to get real time data from countries that just aren't testing/treating etc
> 
> Word on the street is there might already be marshall law in Brazil


It doesn't matter if they are testing or not the tests can not be trusted.

If you go to financial survival network on April 2nd Highimpactvlog has Bill gates on video saying through vaccine they can reduce the worlds population. Bill Gates wants to provide vaccine for everyone, lock down the economy & takeaway freedom of those that do not get vaccinated. Bill gates says this right on video.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Is this behavior new or was he always like that? If it is new it may be a sign of illness or cognitive decline. Or he may think he has very little time left anyway so what the hell.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Is this behavior new or was he always like that? If it is new it may be a sign of illness or cognitive decline. Or he may think he has very little time left anyway so what the hell.


Naw typical older male behaviour.

You have a problem, tough it out, be a man. All that "toxic masculinity" that build the modern world.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

You seem to infantilize your dad. Like at 74 he has dementia. What is actually happening, he does what worked for him for 74 years, taking a risk. This time, however, the risk may be too high. What would you do if your brother was a junkie? Eventually, kick him out and watch him overdose from afar. Maybe tough love would work? I do not know about MB, but in ON you can call police on gatherings. A stiff fine could convince him, obviously you will pay for this.

If you can remove your mother from this situation, it would be optimal, and an additional lack of dinner on a table would also be convincing. But I doubt your mother would go for it.

Very often real-life problems have no good solutions.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Where is the risk giving the powers that be complete control of the peasants or from the Covid.


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

sags said:


> _Hundreds of thousands die of the flu every year & our freedoms are not taken away. _
> 
> Hundreds of thousands will still die from the flu every year, as well as many people in accidents, from disease or other reasons.
> 
> COVID -19 is just adding to the numbers.......an additional hundreds of thousands. Our healthcare system isn't built to handle that kind of surge.


This video explains why COVID-19 is much more dangerous than the flu. Obviously it's still early to know how contagious it really is and what the death rates will be. But it clearly presents the scary facts.





Compared to the flu, COVID-19 is more contagious. There's no vaccine and no herd immunity so more people that are exposed will contract it. Asymptomatic carriers may be contagious for up to 2 weeks, which does not happen with the flu. 2% of people with the flu need hospitalization compared to 20-30% for COVID-19. COVID-19's fatality rate is 10 to 30 times higher than the flu, and the fatality rate for people in their 70s can be 10%. There is no cure and no vaccine so if you get it you just have to hope your body defeats it before it kills you. And that might mean sedating you and stuffing a breathing tube down your throat as the only way to get enough oxygen to your brain and body to keep you alive while your body tries to fight it off.

James do you think some hard facts may help your dad see the light? Many people still don't comprehend how bad it could be.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I normally cut myself off social media between noon & midnight but I wanted post and thank everyone for the helpful replies. I really appreciate it... lots of good thoughts here.

I doubt my mom will want to move but I will talk with her and see what she'd like to do.



MrMatt said:


> Naw typical older male behaviour.


Yes. It isn't dementia or anything; he's been very stubborn like this for a very long time so this is actually consistent with his past behaviour. That's why I can predict what he's going to do; I was losing sleep imagining (predicting) that he was going to sneak out of the house to go socialize and have fun. I knew he was going to do it because it fits his behavioural pattern.

When I talked with my friends, I found that many of us have similar situations with our dads. It isn't that unique.

He apparently did tell my mom some of his motivations the next day. He says he knows it's dangerous, but said he can't handle being cut off from everyone. He says he needs social interactions. Personally I think he should suck it up, be a man, and find ways to handle being cut off -- the way everyone else is!


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eder said:


> If he's not symptomatic why not encourage him to go out where he can keep his distance? Go for a drive in the country with a picnic lunch with the wife or go fishing...old farts (and their wives) love ice fishing (I do). Anything is better than watching Price is Right reruns or Netflix.
> 
> I usually go mountain biking for a couple hours a day...never see anyone as the trails are still muddy & weather pretty cool. Often I take wifey out to do some 4x4ing in the Jeep with a couple cold road pops in the afternoon...


These are all nice ideas and things I would do myself. But dad is saying that he can't handle being cut off from other people. So those activities you suggest alone, or with his wife, are not what he wants to do.

And going to the stores for non-essential shopping is his insistence on continuing his existing patterns. For example he likes to do all his shopping and outings on Saturday, which is why I knew (predicted) he was going to do it.

Apparently he wants to be around other people, and he is going to damn well do it, no matter how many Manitobans it puts in danger! I think he will only stop once the social opportunities disappear, due to the _other_ people smartening up before he does.

It's also possible he might stop when one of his friends becomes infected or hospitalized. I really don't think he's connected the dots between (a) there is an infectious outbreak (b) which is more dangerous than the flu (c) and which could land me & wife in the hospital


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> MrMatt said:
> 
> 
> > Naw typical older male behaviour ...
> ...


Unfortunately it's not limited to the older/male set. 

My sister has to keep re-iterating to her daughter that it's video conferences or wave high from across the street. It seems that lots of my nieces friends and/or the kids in the neighbourhood gather regularly to play in groups, with approval from their parents.

Seems odd considering a lot of the cases in the area are health workers bringing the virus back from their jobs in Michigan.


Cheers


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

You're right, this is not an issue with a certain age group. This is a problem of getting people to take this seriously in general, even when they feel fine themselves.

By the way, I am watching Canada vs California counts. We have similar populations (within 5%) and similar initial dates, and so far they are tracking each other very closely. I think there may be some overconfidence in Canada but so far it looks like ours is going to play out just like California.

We _should_ have fewer cases in Canada due to how spread out we are, and fewer giant cities. But notice this is not materializing so far. This suggests to me that there is overconfidence in Canada.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Can we all stop pretending that everyone's particular behaviours and verbal declarations about this Corona virus situation are based on things like "facts" or "good information", and aren't just 80% expression of their personal economic situations and 20% expression of their personal political opinions?

It is all just so predictable.

-There's old rich liberals demanding that young people stop working and playing for the old person's own good and don't worry, the government has infinite money.
-There's young rich liberals demanding that everyone and especially old people confine to their homes for their own good and don't worry, the government has infinite competence.
-There's old rich conservatives declaring that they don't trust the government, they've been through worse, and they are worried a little bit but don't want their lives impacted (Probably the subject of this thread)
-There's young rich conservatives declaring that this is going to be the opportunity for government to take control over the economy and take away our freedoms.

Then there's everyone else without savings accounts, pensions, or stable jobs that will keep paying them indefinitely to sit around doing nothing while "working from home" (the above "young rich" categories for the time being). These poor people are too worried about their economy collapsing and the immediate nutritional and security needs of their families to give two craps about telling other people that they are behaving slightly badly or exemplary one way or another... 

And if these people happen to need to "break a rule" to ensure their continued safety, like go to the store when they feel sick, or visit some friends to make sure they all have each other's backs for supplies and security, then they are going to do it, forgive themselves, and not write a damn thing on the internet about it.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I agree somewhat but I'm not sure it breaks down by political leanings the way you say. But I do agree that people generally don't make decisions based on facts, statistics, etc.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> ... By the way, I am watching Canada vs California counts. We have similar populations (within 5%) and similar initial dates and so far they are tracking each other very closely. I think there may be some overconfidence in Canada but so far it looks like ours is going to play out just like California ...


And how do the isolation recommendations line up?

My understanding is that Michigan delayed a week compared to California where they have now surpassed the number of covid cases that California has, despite a lower population.




james4beach said:


> ... We _should_ have fewer cases in Canada due to how spread out we are, and fewer giant cities. But notice this is not materializing so far. This suggests to me that there is overconfidence in Canada.


Maybe ... but then again, how good are the comparisons?

The US is reported to have told some labs to stop developing a test, placed roadblocks on other labs where the officially sanctioned lab produced a flawed test. Meanwhile, AFAICT most provinces have been rationing testing.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

peterk said:


> Can we all stop pretending that everyone's particular behaviours and verbal declarations about this Corona virus situation are based on things like "facts" or "good information", and aren't just 80% expression of their personal economic situations and 20% expression of their personal political opinions?
> 
> ... And if these people happen to need to "break a rule" to ensure their continued safety, like go to the store when they feel sick, or visit some friends to make sure they all have each other's backs for supplies and security, then they are going to do it, forgive themselves, and not write a damn thing on the internet about it.


While I can understand there's lots of factors ... AFAICT this thread was talking about people who aren't going to the store to get food and aren't visiting friends to make sure they have supplied/security.

I don't recall anyone in this thread getting upset about where people need to do these things or are helping others.


Maybe another thread is a better place for what looks to me to be a different topic?


Cheers


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> Unfortunately it's not limited to the older/male set.
> 
> My sister has to keep re-iterating to her daughter that it's video conferences or wave high from across the street. It seems that lots of my nieces friends and/or the kids in the neighbourhood gather regularly to play in groups, with approval from their parents.
> 
> ...


It's not limited to the older male set, but it's a well documented issue that men, and older men in particular, tend to ignore health advice, and tend to put off visits to health professionals.

It's a well documented health problem. But it isn't politically correct to promote such things.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> tend to put off visits to health professionals.


I haven't seen a doc in over 32 years but haven't been putting it off...just never been sick.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

peterk said:


> It is all just so predictable.


I see the poor vs rich division (prepared vs unprepared imo) The unprepared are suddenly in survival mode and may justify poor decisions when suddenly cornered or perceive a threat to family etc. I think even the prepared can empathize and understand here either altruistically or at least understand the risk of civil unrest to themselves

The left vs right division (that has been further divided in the US) seems to be closing in for a rare moment imo. Those who accept/understand that overwhelming ICU capacity is not good for anyone tends to accept the minor hardship to spread the cases out over time whether left or right. Not everyone fully understands this and not everyone has accepted their own responsibility spread out cases over time. Rather than left vs right I see some who have accepted the real risk to ICU capacity and their own responsibility and those who either haven't accepted the risk yet, in denial, or maybe cannot grasp the concept. Some just don't know/accept the risk of asymptomatic cases or just forget because it's hard to break habits.

I see increasing division of locals vs outsiders. Communities are circling the wagons and are wary of visitors. I see this locally where people are calling out licence plates (outrage culture). I see this in communities I follow (hikers and motorbikers think there are still ok to travel responsibly, however rural communities don't want them taking limited supplies and bringing germs)


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I suppose the motorbikers and hikers fit in with a group who aren't fully aware of how their non-essential actions impact others

These people justify to themselves that they aren't carriers and that they will maintain responsible social distancing while doing whatever leisure activity. If a motorbiker, hiker etc gets in an accident or has to call EMS for whatever reason they are adding unnecessary burden to a critical resource especially when in a rural area. Not to mention they are still touching gas pumps, sales machines and using limited resources. So there are deliberate belligerents and then there are ignorant belligerents whether left or right imo

Of course there is a risk reward involved where visiting family and close friends is not the same as those going to the beach imo


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> I suppose the motorbikers and hikers fit in with a group who aren't fully aware of how their non-essential actions impact others


It's either ignorance or self entitlement.

Often it's a selfish mix of both, I want to do this, and then they rationalize it.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> I suppose the motorbikers and hikers fit in with a group who aren't fully aware of how their non-essential actions impact others
> 
> These people justify to themselves that they aren't carriers and that they will maintain responsible social distancing while doing whatever leisure activity. If a motorbiker, hiker etc gets in an accident or has to call EMS for whatever reason they are adding unnecessary burden to a critical resource especially when in a rural area. Not to mention they are still touching gas pumps, sales machines and using limited resources. So there are deliberate belligerents and then there are ignorant belligerents whether left or right imo
> 
> Of course there is a risk reward involved where visiting family and close friends is not the same as those going to the beach imo


We happen to live in a small town that for some unknown reason seems to be part of a popular motorcycle route. Every weekend from spring through fall, we have motorcyles often in groups, going through town. Normally, I have no problem with that but I noticed them out this past weekend. 

I agree with you that if they had an accident or even just a mechanical breakdown, they will have to then interact with others in some way and that increases the risk to all. When we are told to stay home as much as POSSIBLE, we are also told we can go out for some fresh air or exercise. But that should not include going for a ride whether on a bicycle, a motorcycle or in a car. We should limit ourselves to only going as far as we can WALK back home from.

We have a little beach near us. Maybe a 20 minute drive away. During our first week of self-isolation, we drove down there one day for some fresh air, had a little picnic lunch and had some fun skipping stones across the water. But now we look at that and say no, that is not a good idea for the exact reasons above. So, it's a walk or nothing now.

I'm still looking at all the vehicles driving through our small town and asking myself, where are they all going, they can't all be going to the supermarket or to pick up a prescription. Many of them MUST be ignoring or interpreting the request that they stay at home as much as POSSIBLE, very loosely.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

@james4beach Your situation with your dad is not an uncommon one which is trying to get people to change their behavior in unprecedented times. As you have seen here, berating, shaming, guilting or any of those passive aggressive behaviors just doesn't work and is off putting. When it comes to getting people to change, it really comes down to finding that person motivating behavior. (This is what I partially do for work).

It's different for each person and it's a process. It's definitely not easy. The better the you know the person, the more likely the change is to occur. Having a heart to heart with your dad to understand where he coming from, and really listening. You know he wants to be social, for an extrovert that is huge (trust me I am one). Acknowledge his needs and how he is feeling, telling him to suck it up just doesn't work. Then walk him through the facts which I am sure he knows. Then help him make the connection on how his actions may bring him untended consequences. I would ask him coaching questions such as have you thought what would happen if you caught it? See what he thinks how bad it is. Continue with what would happen if he brought it home and infected you mom. Walk him through the facts. Ask him how he would feel if his wife was hospitalized or worst. 

Really take the time help him probe his thoughts and feelings. There are people in denial, some people just want things to be normal as a coping mechanism, some of the behaviors are for the feel of control, there are many reasons why people are acting the way they are. If you want to make a break through with your dad, you have to get HIM to think it through, and it's really your role just to prompt, guide, and provide facts. If you tell him, he will just dig in. The big thing is to get him to realize that these short term things may hurt him long term on his terms.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Plugging Along said:


> @james4beach Your situation with your dad is not an uncommon one which is trying to get people to change their behavior in unprecedented times. As you have seen here, berating, shaming, guilting or any of those passive aggressive behaviors just doesn't work and is off putting. When it comes to getting people to change, it really comes down to finding that person motivating behavior. (This is what I partially do for work).
> 
> It's different for each person and it's a process. It's definitely not easy. The better the you know the person, the more likely the change is to occur. Having a heart to heart with your dad to understand where he coming from, and really listening. You know he wants to be social, for an extrovert that is huge (trust me I am one). Acknowledge his needs and how he is feeling, telling him to suck it up just doesn't work.


Thanks, very helpful. I will think about this. I think another difficulty for him is coming to grips with the fact he's over 70. He does not like the weaknesses he's seeing in his body and often acts like he's in his 50s because that's how he feels.

Because he hasn't been able to adjust to getting old, he often does things that are too much for his age. For example a couple years ago, he got himself into a medical emergency after a reckless sequence of travel & partying and not stopping to rest and take it easy. Hopefully he learned a bit from that incident.

In his mind, he's still in his 50s, and he does not like the idea of resting, taking it easy, or making the lifestyle adjustments that are required for a 70+ person.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Thanks, very helpful. I will think about this. I think another difficulty for him is coming to grips with the fact he's over 70. He does not like the weaknesses he's seeing in his body and often acts like he's in his 50s because that's how he feels.
> 
> Because he hasn't been able to adjust to getting old, he often does things that are too much for his age. For example a couple years ago, he got himself into a medical emergency after a reckless sequence of travel & partying and not stopping to rest and take it easy. Hopefully he learned a bit from that incident.
> 
> In his mind, he's still in his 50s, and he does not like the idea of resting, taking it easy, or making the lifestyle adjustments that are required for a 70+ person.


It makes a lot of sense how your dad is feeling. I still feeling like I am in my 20's and realize I am no where near there. I also get annoyed when my kid remind me that I am not 20. 

It's really interesting, my older sibling will tell my dad the exact same thing I tell him. However, when my older sibling does it, it comes off as more demanding and my father gets offended. I have also noticed that when my dad is feeling overwhelmed with information (especially with COVID) he becomes more stubborn to do things his ways or the normal way. He would rather dig in and be stubborn than say he's overwhelmed. The only reason I know this is because my dad will listen to me even if it's the same information that my sibling tells him. The biggest difference is how I inform him and really approaching it as the best thing for everyone around him, not him. It takes a lot of patience but I know deep down my dad doesn't like showing that he is wrong, and even more getting called out for it.

One example was he kept doing things that weren't very healthy or safe. We kept asking him not too and he wouldn't listen. It was very frustrating for all of us. Finally, I told him that my concern is that I live much further from him and my kids were struggling with some health issues that were taking all my time. If he hurt himself, I would of course help him, but it would come at the expense of his grandkids. So him listening was not to only help him, but it shows that he cares about his grandkids. For my dad, family is much more important than his personal well being, so that's how I get through to him. Every person is different, but hopefully that helps with your dad. Find what he cares most deeply about and use that as the reason for him follow the recommendations.


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## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

I'm not being like your Dad James, but my wife is. She's planning an Easter dinner with the whole family at our place. Both our adult children and four grandchildren. I would rather not, but I'm not willing to start a fight with her over it, so I'll just go along as usual, even though it's against my better judgement.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

pwm said:


> I'm not being like your Dad James, but my wife is. She's planning an Easter dinner with the whole family at our place. Both our adult children and four grandchildren. I would rather not, but I'm not willing to start a fight with her over it, so I'll just go along as usual, even though it's against my better judgement.


Oh boy. That's a bit worrying, especially if it's true that children are asymptomatic carriers who spread this thing around.

It's true that one can't start fights over this kind of thing. Just wash your hands -- a lot. Perhaps try to keep some distance (esp from the children) to the extent you can. If you notice anyone coughing, stay away from them.

Try to get a very solid sleep before, and after, the event. You might want to shower after the event (I would). Maybe even take some extra naps in the days after. Drink water or tea instead of alcohol to stay extra well hydrated, which can only help overall health and help flush viruses out of your body.

Another thought is to remind all guests of a few things like

please cough into tissues or into your arm
if your nose is itchy, please use a tissue, not your bare hands
wash your hands if you've touched your nose
please keep some distance from each other when talking
I can see why a family would have dinner together. I still AM having occasional dinners with my parents, at their insistence (they get insulted if I don't). But I am keeping extra space and I keep reminding my dad to stay somewhat away from me.

I will also probably have dinner with my parents this weekend. But when I see them, I am generally washing my hands constantly. I'm also using kleenex as a barrier when I touch certain common objects and always keeping as much distance as possible.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

pwm said:


> I'm not being like your Dad James, but my wife is. She's planning an Easter dinner with the whole family at our place. Both our adult children and four grandchildren. I would rather not, but I'm not willing to start a fight with her over it, so I'll just go along as usual, even though it's against my better judgement.


I hope that your kids and grandkids took extra precautions (even you and your wife but you guys are probably higher risk). I haven't seen my dad who for over a month. I know there is some stuff that he needs help with as he is elderly and needs more groceries. Knowing this, I have started to come up with a schedule to visit him. Everyone in my household has none had contact with anyone for 2 two weeks, then I will go see him without the kids to bring groceries, the equivalent of our easter dinner, and what ever else he needs.

I am setting the schedule that there is one or two days in a row where we have to do everything, so that may mean several stores and shops, and then quarantine for 15 days, then see my dad then repeat. I may reduce the quarantine to 10 days as that was a recommendation if you didn't have close contact with any in the risk groups to be infected, which I don't have close contact with anyone. 

I know everyone has to takes their own risks which makes sense to them. I am just posting how I am doing things as it might help some others find a way to make it work.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I can see why a family would have dinner together. I still AM having occasional dinners with my parents, at their insistence (they get insulted if I don't). But I am keeping extra space and I keep reminding my dad to stay somewhat away from me.


This might of been one of those time I would have dug in with my dad if he was going out. I would have said, I really want to come and see you, but since you went out, I cannot risk getting ill, in my case I would bring up the grandkids, and he would feel bad but understand. I would then say I will come over after 14 days since you have been out. 

I had to use similar technique with my teenager. Her friends all had a get together (just before the official ban, but social distancing was required). I had to say no and apparently I was the only parent to say no . I had to tell her that by allowing her to go she put me at risk and therefore her grandfather. She still didn't care. I knew she was scheduled to baby sit for an essential service worker. I told her that if she went with her friends she could put the service work at risk. That was her motivation.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

pwm said:


> I'm not being like your Dad James, but my wife is. She's planning an Easter dinner with the whole family at our place. Both our adult children and four grandchildren. I would rather not, but I'm not willing to start a fight with her over it, so I'll just go along as usual, even though it's against my better judgement.


To me that should not be a difficult issue to address. Obviously your wife loves her children, loves her grandchildren and is possibly fond of the spouses.

When I am about to do something, that may incur risk to others, I always ask myself: "How will this look on Monday morning when I am explaining my actions to a judge" This allows a better perspective, because AFTER the event, the risks present are so much more obvious to others, even if at the time, they did not appear to be so obvious to me.

In your case, it won't end in a legal matter, but could end in a grave personal manner. I would simply ask my wife, that she must agree that there is at least a small possibility that this dinner will have risk. Even if it is only a 0.00001% probability, if any of her children, their spouses or you, come down with Covid-19 in the next 14 days, AND DIE, how will she feel about that for the rest of her life. Knowing that there is a really big chance that it was THIS DINNER that killed them. Her grandchildren will always blame her for the rest of their lives. I imagine she will blame herself for the rest of her life. Is one dinner really worth that, no matter how low the probability might be.

For most mothers, grandmothers and wives, that should end it. Good luck.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

LTA's head is going to explode


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Retired Peasant said:


> LTA's head is going to explode


No, I know there are foolish, irresponsible people out there Retired Peasant. It seems pwm's wife is just another one of them when it comes to Covid19.

Depending on what province they live in, there is probably a directive re the number of people who can get together. Ontario is 2 and some are 5 I believe. So IF they do get together for dinner, a call to the Police will bring a visit to their door. 

If I were their neighbour and saw their children and grandchildren arriving, I would make that phone call without hesitation.

I'm also wondering if pwm's 2 children are foolish enough and irresponsible enough when it comes to their children, to agree to come to dinner.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Why don't we leave other people's families out of this...


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

OptsyEagle said:


> To me that should not be a difficult issue to address. Obviously your wife loves her children, loves her grandchildren and is possibly fond of the spouses.
> 
> When I am about to do something, that may incur risk to others, I always ask myself: "How will this look on Monday morning when I am explaining my actions to a judge" This allows a better perspective, because AFTER the event, the risks present are so much more obvious to others, even if at the time, they did not appear to be so obvious to me.
> 
> ...


It might well end in a 'legal matter' OptsyEagle if a neighbour reports this group gathering to the Police. A group in Brampton ignored the directive not to gather in a group of more than 2 people. Apparently even when the Police arrived they wanted to continue to ignore it. So instead of each getting a $750 fine which the Police can issue on the spot, the Police chose to charge them and take it to court, where a Judge can choose to fine EACH of them up to $100,000. 








Physical distancing fine issued in Brampton after backyard party


On April 1, 2020, Mayor Patrick Brown took to Facebook Live to make a special announcement regarding rent relief for the City of Brampton amid the COVID-19 outbreak. On April 1, 2020, Mayor Patrick Brown took to Facebook Live to make a special announcement regarding rent relief for the City of...




www.inbrampton.com


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> Why don't we leave other people's families out of this...


Umm, because the other person brought his family into this?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

pwm said:


> I'm not being like your Dad James, but my wife is. She's planning an Easter dinner with the whole family at our place. Both our adult children and four grandchildren. I would rather not, but I'm not willing to start a fight with her over it, so I'll just go along as usual, even though it's against my better judgement.


Pwm, forget all the psycho babble about how to handle your wife without getting in a fight with her. Either man up and tell her, no it is not going to happen and risk her anger or phone your 2 kids and tell them to tell her they are not going to come and let them risk her anger.

Jeez, this is not rocket science people. The correct behaviour is obvious. There should be no family dinner this year, end of story. Someone just needs to tell Mrs. pwm that.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

These bylaws aren't there to prevent direct family contact or prevent family dinners.

But it might help to point out to the organizer potential consequences of this. For example, if it turns out the children (carriers) infect the grandparents, and the grandparents die of resulting complications: could it psychologically scar the children for life?

An event like that could have a significant impact on a child, or perhaps on their parents who brought the children to dinner. Guilt for the next 40 years of their lives perhaps. Along the lines of Optsy's post.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

I think with people like this, talking through it will have limited success. 
What I have seen that works is providing options or solutions. If he has a tablet or computer, show him and his buddies how to use Skype/zoom/hangouts/ face time or something along that line. He and his buddies can set a time to do a 'face to face' coffee meeting each morning or evening at a set time.
They get the socialization, and feel a sense of accomplishment of using a new technology. 
This won't work unless they have a ' buddy' group but will work for some.

The other thing that works that is not as optimal is to park two cars passenger side to passenger side and open passenger windows and have a chat.( drivers only in cars).


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> These bylaws aren't there to prevent direct family contact or prevent family dinners.
> 
> But it might help to point out to the organizer potential consequences of this. For example, if it turns out the children (carriers) infect the grandparents, and the grandparents die of resulting complications: could it psychologically scar the children for life?
> 
> An event like that could have a significant impact on a child, or perhaps on their parents who brought the children to dinner. Guilt for the next 40 years of their lives perhaps. Along the lines of Optsy's post.


Actually they are in place to prevent family gatherings. A directive for Ontario is 'no groups of more than 2 UNLESS they are inhabitants of ONE household.' 

That means, no family dinners where family members do not live in the same house get together. In this mornings Federal modelling briefing, that exact point was brought up several times. No family Passover or Easter dinners this year. Full stop.


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

This is a good blog on what it's like for someone to get a "moderate" case of COVID-19 that did not require hospitalization.

*I’m 36 and I tested positive for coronavirus. My so-called “moderate” case is brutal.*


> My experience of coronavirus was sheer brutal hell. It was the most intense prolonged physical agony I’ve ever felt.



She has a good perspective on why even small gatherings among family/friends are risky:


> “I know it’s scary,” my friend writes back. “We figured it’s at a small bar with people we know.”
> 
> I look at that text and think: _WTF? that doesn’t make any sense._
> 
> “With people we know?” How is that relevant? Sure, “with people we know” is helpful for not getting murdered, but the degree of familiarity that I have with someone doesn’t affect the likelihood that either they or I will be asymptomatic carriers of a contagious disease.



And some of her symptoms:


> I walk into the kitchen and lean against the counter. I feel groggy and weak. I feel dizzy. And then — boom — I fall. One moment I’m standing upright. The next moment a wave of dizziness hits me. And the next moment, I’m lying face-down on the hardwood floor





> My fever spikes to 103.7 degrees. My ears are ringing. My head feels like it weighs a thousand pounds. I can’t move. I’m seriously afraid that I might lose my mind, that I’ll need to call 911 on myself but that I won’t have the mental capacity to do so.





> I sweat buckets, wake up with soaked clothes and soaked bedsheets, drenched in sweat from the fever breaking. I try to change my clothes frequently, so that I’m not wearing sweaty clothes. ... Changing my clothes requires an excruciating level of effort. It’s my biggest activity for the day. I can’t remember the last time I brushed my teeth. Who has that kind of energy?
> 
> I start coughing. I’ve only had a mild cough until this point. But now it escalates to serious. I’m coughing harder than I’ve ever coughed in my life. I dissolve into coughing fits that take over my entire being. I cough so hard I’m seriously afraid I’m going to fracture a rib.


Is it really worth the risk for a family dinner?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

pwm said:


> I'm not being like your Dad James, but my wife is. She's planning an Easter dinner with the whole family at our place. Both our adult children and four grandchildren. I would rather not, but I'm not willing to start a fight with her over it, so I'll just go along as usual, even though it's against my better judgement.


There is no fight, don't let them in your house. 
My wifes family has a habit of showing up unannounced, and I'm sure they're bored.

We've already discussed that if they show up, they're not getting in the front door.

The thing is that someone who makes one exception is likely making other exceptions.
I'm not letting people like that in my house. You shouldn't either.

You don't have to fight, just tell your children that you're very sorry, but such an in person gathering is unsafe and illegal, and you'll have to videoconference for Easter dinner.

If you can't trust your wife to act in her own health interest, and in compliance with the law, I'm not sure how much you can trust her judgement.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

GreatLaker said:


> This is a good blog on what it's like for someone to get a "moderate" case of COVID-19 that did not require hospitalization.
> 
> *I’m 36 and I tested positive for coronavirus. My so-called “moderate” case is brutal.*
> 
> ...


Every time you go into your backyard, you are braving Lyme disease, West Nile disease, etc. Every time you pass through an intersection, you run the risk of a careless driver on their phone running the red and killing you. There are acceptable levels of risk. The risk right now is very high because there are many undiagnosed cases, limited testing capacity and limited ability for the health care system to deal with these cases. When there are few new undiagnosed cases despite high levels of testing, the risk profile will be much different. We'll know when we start detecting very few cases overall, even if some people are asymptomatic, they will spread it. If they spread it, some of the people they infect become symptomatic. Therefore few new symptomatic cases implies few asymptomatic 'spreaders'. And any new symptomatic cases you contact trace and test those who they came in contact with and find those spreaders.

The risk profile will change in the coming months, and that will warrant a change in the mitigation strategies. We're not going back to packed nightclubs overnight, but yes, family dinners will one of the earlier things that are condoned.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> These bylaws aren't there to prevent direct family contact or prevent family dinners.


Actually it's literally the intent, wording, and interpretation of the order.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Is everyone blind to the math on covid. The exponential growth numbers show even before the shut down that most had to be exposed to the virus & developed no symptoms. This virus is lot less deadlier then the flu & they shut down the whole world.

Deaths are being attributed to covid that are not from covid. They are using bogus science for the cause of deaths in most cases.

When the stock market was @ all time highs there was something like 60,000 people with covid. Exponential growth of people coming in contact with other people would be huge by now with those numbers plus the numbers would have been higher if you take those into account that showed no symptoms.

The egotistical climate change crowd that think they can control the temp of the world to with in .5 degrees is cheering on the shut down. As well as government & others that seeks power.

We could get civil war out of this one. Taking freedom & robbing the masses the peasant if they have any back bone will revolt.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

@lonewolf
The exponential growth is due to the high Spread rate.
Current data suggests that COVID19 is more deadly than the flu.

Even if COVID19 was only as deadly as the flu, the lack of vaccine and the high death rate will cause significantly more deaths.

I am very concerned that the authoritarian globalists will try to use this to take even more power. This makes no sense as those global organizations failed to perform their stated objectives.

To be fair, the stated objectives aren't the real objectives, it's mostly political posturing.


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## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

The family Easter dinner is off. Not because I followed some advice here like "Man up and tell her NO", or telling my wife "They're not getting in the door". That's not how our relationship functions and probably why it has lasted this long. Instead of making this a battle of wills I contacted my son and mildly suggested I didn't think it was a good idea. He was wavering already and decided not to come. Then I told my wife I'd support her decision if she wanted to continue with my daughter & her family but I did have some reservations. After a day she agreed. I've learned a few things after 50 years of marriage.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

pwm said:


> The family Easter dinner is off. Not because I followed some advice here like "Man up and tell her NO", or telling my wife "They're not getting in the door". That's not how our relationship functions and probably why it has lasted this long. Instead of making this a battle of wills I contacted my son and mildly suggested I didn't think it was a good idea. He was wavering already and decided not to come. Then I told my wife I'd support her decision if she wanted to continue with my daughter & her family but I did have some reservations. After a day she agreed. I've learned a few things after 50 years of marriage.


You did man up and tell her no, you just did it in a way that was less confrontational.
I would have done it similarly, but I wouldn't have said I'd support her decision, because I don't lie to my wife.

Though in our relationship, we both have vetos over things, we just rarely use them. It's bad politics.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

pwm said:


> The family Easter dinner is off. Not because I followed some advice here like "Man up and tell her NO", or telling my wife "They're not getting in the door". That's not how our relationship functions and probably why it has lasted this long. Instead of making this a battle of wills I contacted my son and mildly suggested I didn't think it was a good idea. He was wavering already and decided not to come. Then I told my wife I'd support her decision if she wanted to continue with my daughter & her family but I did have some reservations. After a day she agreed. I've learned a few things after 50 years of marriage.


I told you to man up pwm. How you choose to do that is entirely up to you. It's an expression that goes straight to the point and is not ambiguous as to the intent. The point was that there should be no dinner and I'm glad to hear it is off. 

Bear in mind, you posted that you WERE going to go along with it and THAT is what I reacted to. There should never have been any thought about going along with it to begin with. You might have chosen to bide your time, sow some seeds and then come to agreement it was a bad idea. But you should NEVER had been thinking about going along with it at all and that is what you posted that you were in fact doing.

To me was no different than if someone had posted I intend to drink and drive. My reaction would be the same, 'NO, don't do that, it is a wrong thing to do.' 

My wife and I have been married for 20 years. Not as long as you have been married certainly but what you have learned over 50 years is how to get along with your wife. You have a relationship that works for you. In my relationship with my wife, we work differently. If one or the other says 'no' to something, it does not have to be justified to the other and both of us really dislike any attempt to 'manipulate' us. What someone might think is being 'subtle' in getting their point across is often something we both see as attempting to manipulate someone. From my perspective, you had to 'manipulate' your wife to get her to change her mind. Different strokes as they say. 

If my wife had said, 'I think we should have the family over for dinner', my immediate reaction would have been, 'you've got to be joking. That's not happening'. There would have been no argument, no anger. We both agree or it doesn't happen. If I said, 'I think we should buy a new car while this virus is getting the manufacturers to offer good deals', I can imagine the same response coming from my wife and that would be the end of that idea.

We may all have our different ways of doing things but none of us should ever be even thinking about 'going along to get along' with what we know to be a bad idea. That is not how good relationships are built.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

pwm said:


> The family Easter dinner is off. Not because I followed some advice here like "Man up and tell her NO", or telling my wife "They're not getting in the door". That's not how our relationship functions and probably why it has lasted this long. Instead of making this a battle of wills I contacted my son and mildly suggested I didn't think it was a good idea. He was wavering already and decided not to come. Then I told my wife I'd support her decision if she wanted to continue with my daughter & her family but I did have some reservations. After a day she agreed. I've learned a few things after 50 years of marriage.


Glad to hear it worked out. Ultimatums, threats, and aggressiveness may work in the short term, but it's strong communication, reason and understanding that make things work in the long term. I know the times I have been on the fence on something and someone lecturing me or being condescending has usually resulted in me digging in. You should advice for some here that think being right is enough.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> Glad to hear it worked out. Ultimatums, threats, and aggressiveness may work in the short term, but it's strong communication, reason and understanding that make things work in the long term. I know the times I have been on the fence on something and someone lecturing me or being condescending has usually resulted in me digging in. You should advice for some here that think being right is enough.


There is a time and place for ultimatums.

If someone was insisting on a course of action that violated the law and put my family, let alone my extended families life at risk. I would first clarify their intent, and respond with the appropriate level of aggressiveness.

If it has to get to the point of ultimatums, threats and aggressiveness to do the right thing, you either see the situation differently, or have different values.
If it is different perceptions that's one thing, if it's different values, that's a whole other issue, and quite honestly I don't think many relationships can (or necessarily should) withstand that.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> There is a time and place for ultimatums.
> 
> If someone was insisting on a course of action that violated the law and put my family, let alone my extended families life at risk. I would first clarify their intent, and respond with the appropriate level of aggressiveness.
> 
> ...


If you see things differently then ultimatums, threats and aggressiveness are not the right tool to get your way. Like PWM, communication, reason, and figuring out together how to meet both needs is the way. If you have different core values, then you probably shouldn't be together. Ultimatums and threats have never ended well long term for the person that attempted on me. I cannot think of any scenario where threatening someone has lended positive results. Immediate results.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> Glad to hear it worked out. Ultimatums, threats, and aggressiveness may work in the short term, but it's strong communication, reason and understanding that make things work in the long term. I know the times I have been on the fence on something and someone lecturing me or being condescending has usually resulted in me digging in. You should advice for some here that think being right is enough.


Being RIGHT is enough Plugging Along if both understand that RIGHT is right ONLY when BOTH agree it is right. For example, a dress my wife might think is lovely still has to be a dress I will be happy to be seen with her wearing. If it isn't then it is WRONG for one of us and that is enough. I'm not reluctant at all to say, 'no, I don't like it' and when I do, I do not get an argument from my wife about it. 

There are no 'ultimatums, threats or aggressiveness' required to being honest in your relationship. Right requires BOTH to agree it is right. WRONG only requires one to say it is wrong.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Lol...what a great idea...I don't like your dress...go change into something I approve of. Sprayed some coffee...thanks!


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> Being RIGHT is enough Plugging Along if both understand that RIGHT is right ONLY when BOTH agree it is right. For example, a dress my wife might think is lovely still has to be a dress I will be happy to be seen with her wearing. If it isn't then it is WRONG for one of us and that is enough. I'm not reluctant at all to say, 'no, I don't like it' and when I do, I do not get an argument from my wife about it.
> 
> There are no 'ultimatums, threats or aggressiveness' required to being honest in your relationship. Right requires BOTH to agree it is right. WRONG only requires one to say it is wrong.





Longtimeago said:


> If my wife had said, 'I think we should have the family over for dinner', my immediate reaction would have been, 'you've got to be joking. That's not happening'. There would have been no argument, no anger. We both agree or it doesn't happen. If I said, 'I think we should buy a new car while this virus is getting the manufacturers to offer good deals', I can imagine the same response coming from my wife and that would be the end of that idea.
> 
> We may all have our different ways of doing things but none of us should ever be even thinking about 'going along to get along' with what we know to be a bad idea. That is not how good relationships are built.


LTA, I think no two relationships are the same and some work very well no doubt in ways others would find difficult to understand. No doubt your relationship with your wife and the dynamics of that relationship work well for you as a couple.

I have been married for getting close to 20 years and I know we would not have lasted long under your relationship style. The wife's dress example. You will accept only what you "will be happy to be seen with her wearing". That suggests when she shops for clothes, when she picks out what she will wear on a given day, she must be thinking of your tastes equally with her own. Even more so, keeping in mind your veto power. In our case, if my wife thinks it's lovely and will feel good wearing it, I'll be happy to see her wearing it. I simply cannot imagine seeing my wife walk into my presence wearing just about anything, me saying "I don't like it" and her turning on her heel to forthwith to sally forth and make another choice, hoping this time to strike the right chord with the master. 

As for going along with a bad idea, in our relationship, I would say both of us do that now and again. But not in the matter of anything of significance. Again, take the dress idea. I might think my wife's choice of dress for a particular occasion, or simply not being to my taste, is a "bad idea". But so what? It's such a small thing, why even mention it? She can adorn herself how she likes. And, even though she is more than a quarter century my junior, I am not her parent or person in authority. 

And as for my wife saying 'I think we should have the family over for dinner', if my immediate reaction were, 'you've got to be joking. That's not happening', then I would have to expect to sleep in the woodshed that night. I would never consider speaking to her in that manner. If I thought it wrong, I would say so, and say why. I would hear her view. She might come back to me with something like: "Well, the family members to be invited live in similar circumstances to us. On a remote island. They have not been to town or mixed with others for more then 3 weeks. I think the risk that any of us is carrying the covid-19 virus is minuscule. I perceive the risk to be at an acceptable level." I might well find myself persuaded by that line of reasoning even while my initial reaction was no, any social mixing is a bad idea. The tv just told me so.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eder said:


> Lol...what a great idea...I don't like your dress...go change into something I approve of. Sprayed some coffee...thanks!


Are we to take it then that you are afraid to say you don't like something Eder?


Mukhang pera said:


> LTA, I think no two relationships are the same and some work very well no doubt in ways others would find difficult to understand. No doubt your relationship with your wife and the dynamics of that relationship work well for you as a couple.
> 
> I have been married for getting close to 20 years and I know we would not have lasted long under your relationship style. The wife's dress example. You will accept only what you "will be happy to be seen with her wearing". That suggests when she shops for clothes, when she picks out what she will wear on a given day, she must be thinking of your tastes equally with her own. Even more so, keeping in mind your veto power. In our case, if my wife thinks it's lovely and will feel good wearing it, I'll be happy to see her wearing it. I simply cannot imagine seeing my wife walk into my presence wearing just about anything, me saying "I don't like it" and her turning on her heel to forthwith to sally forth and make another choice, hoping this time to strike the right chord with the master.
> 
> ...


As you say, we all differ and what works for one couple may not for another. I can't imagine wearing say a suit my wife hating seeing me in. We are just honest in telling each other what we like or don't like. To me that's as simple as it gets. There's never a question of sleeping in the woodshed for having said so.

You used the word 'master' whether intentionally or not. There is no part of 'master' in our relationship whatsoever. We are a true partnership and while it might seem corny, there is no I, there is only US. Either we are both happy with something or we are both not happy. I don't know how else to express it.

Eder comments about 'go change into something I approve of'. That 'approve of' implies a 'master' or 'boss' with the other person being somehow subservient. We don't see it that way.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

pwm said:


> The family Easter dinner is off. Not because I followed some advice here like "Man up and tell her NO", or telling my wife "They're not getting in the door". That's not how our relationship functions and probably why it has lasted this long. Instead of making this a battle of wills I contacted my son and mildly suggested I didn't think it was a good idea. He was wavering already and decided not to come. Then I told my wife I'd support her decision if she wanted to continue with my daughter & her family but I did have some reservations. After a day she agreed. I've learned a few things after 50 years of marriage.



Nicely done pwm... I could learn a lot from you. This is a better way to deal with people.

Well done sir, keeping your family safe while preserving good relationships.

Have a nice holiday weekend and cheers, from a neighbour in Manitoba


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Being RIGHT is enough Plugging Along if both understand that RIGHT is right ONLY when BOTH agree it is right. For example, a dress my wife might think is lovely still has to be a dress I will be happy to be seen with her wearing. If it isn't then it is WRONG for one of us and that is enough. I'm not reluctant at all to say, 'no, I don't like it' and when I do, I do not get an argument from my wife about it.
> 
> There are no 'ultimatums, threats or aggressiveness' required to being honest in your relationship. Right requires BOTH to agree it is right. WRONG only requires one to say it is wrong.


Being right has very little to people both agreeing. A couple could both agree on the same thing, and they would just both be wrong. The definitions of 'Right' are: 1 true or correct as a fact.; OR 2 morally good, justified, or acceptable OR 3. in a satisfactory, sound, or normal state or condition.

Out of those three possible definitions, the only one that is black and white is the first where it can be backed up by facts that are not disputed. The other two definitions on what acceptable is based on values, circumstances, etc or agreeing to a baseline normal condition. Both are up for discussion. 

In none of the definitions does a group agreeing on something make anything right. Is just means that there will be less arguments. On the same thought, wrong doesn't mean someone disagree. Disagreeing just means they have a differing opinion. One can only be wrong if they are factually wrong, or in our morally wrong. To teach our kids on what is wrong we always used the guideline if it's illegal, or hurtful to yourself or others, then it's wrong. Everything else is just a difference in opinion. 

In your dress or attire example, in our house it would be fine to give an opinion and reasoning on why we didn't want the other person to not wear something, but the other person would make their own decision on how they conduct themselves. There would be no way I, my spouse, or kids would not do something just because someone didn't like something. It would be up to each person to weigh out the difference in opinions. The final decision isn't wrong or right, but one could have be better outcome. 

It good that you have found a partner that is fine with how you interact. That would be not be acceptable with me and I hope my kids would not find that acceptable My spouse/partner for over 25 years, that would not have worked. Again, neither of our ways are right or wrong. Just different.


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

pwm said:


> I've learned a few things after 50 years of marriage.


So on average you learned one thing about every 15 years. Well done pwm! You just went up a notch in my book. 😉


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

And now, my dad (who's over 70) wants to fly across Canada to visit me. And it's not like he never sees me ... I was with him just a couple weeks ago!

I'm not a fan of this idea. He says he would stay in a hotel, but I still think travel (planes & airports) puts his life in danger. It also puts me in danger because of what he might pick up along the way.

But I'm also concerned that if I discourage his visit this summer, that he eventually won't be able to control himself and visit during a much more dangerous time, like Nov/Dec. Maybe it's better to get this out of the way in summer?


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

You'll miss him when he's dead...spend the time with him .


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eder said:


> You'll miss him when he's dead...spend the time with him .


I had the same thought, and I did spend the last several months with him.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Spending time with a person because you will miss them when they are dead is illogical. You miss a person more who you see more frequently then you miss when you almost never saw them at all.

The above is not a reason not to see your father but more a way of putting logic over emotion. Your father travelling to see you is just a dumb idea. That is the sum of all the plus's and minus's of it.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> And now, my dad (who's over 70) wants to fly across Canada to visit me. And it's not like he never sees me ... I was with him just a couple weeks ago!
> 
> I'm not a fan of this idea. He says he would stay in a hotel, but I still think travel (planes & airports) puts his life in danger. It also puts me in danger because of what he might pick up along the way.
> 
> But I'm also concerned that if I discourage his visit this summer, that he eventually won't be able to control himself and visit during a much more dangerous time, like Nov/Dec. Maybe it's better to get this out of the way in summer?


Now you are self-justifying a bad decision. He should not fly, end of story. Tell him if he does, you will not see him. A visit requires two people participating, refuse to participate.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

@james4beach You can only control your part with your father. If you think its a bad idea (I do but that is irrelevant), then you tell him so and that you will not visit with him if he comes in the summer or in Nov/Dec. You can tell him kindly and with care, but you can refuse. 

I have changed my whole family schedule in order to be able to safely visit and help my father at his house. As things have opened up, he told me he wanted to go to the legion with his senior friends (all 80+) to visit and play cards, because 'they legally can'. He kept telling me how our province allows it and they would not be fined and they would take precautions. He really wanted to and wanted to try since it was legal. I had to remind him the sacrifices my family was making to help him, the risks that he brought to me, and the impacts if he does get sick. I also had to ask him about all the people that his was meeting and their bubbles. If he could not trace back their bubbles he was at risk. I suggested that if ever person planning to attend and their live in family would get a test earlier that week, and quarantine until they meet, then it would be safe. I also had to ask him what was the impact of him not going, the answer was he would be bored. 

In the end he hit the realization that in order to go safely, it wasn't going to happen, and just because others were going didn't mean he should. I also told him I wouldn't go through what we are doing to help him if he couldn't stay home. Sometimes as kids we just have to put our foot down.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I always used to let my Dad do as he wished. We would have a discussion and then he would decide what he wanted to,do. Your only practical choice is to offer to visit him again. Refusing to see him is childish.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I think this reopening thing has a lot of people confused. Seniors, and those inflicted with low IQs seem to think that it means that it is safe. From the evidence that I have seen the virus seems to be just as deadly and is still with us. I agree that for some reason it seems to be a little less contagious these days, here in Canada anyway, but no one seems to want to investigate if that is a permanent thing or something that will likely change. It could just be that less infection creates less infection and all we need to change it is more infection. I am sure we will find out and there seems to be a lot of people willing to be the test subjects here.

Anyway, I am still planning to avoid it. Not sure why others have decided not worry about it or what it can still do to them and the people they love the most. I suspect it is probably a "weakest link" issue. In other words, you only need one person in a family or bubble to feel the risks are acceptable and that seems to create enough peer pressure for the rest to put aside their common sense.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

OptsyEagle said:


> Anyway, I am still planning to avoid it. Not sure why others have decided not worry about it or what it can still do to them and the people they love the most. I suspect it is probably a "weakest link" issue. In other words, you only need one person in a family or bubble to feel the risks are acceptable and that seems to create enough peer pressure for the rest to put aside their common sense.


I agree, the risk is still out there, and significant. Peer pressure can result in people agreeing to do things that contradict common sense.

I ended up telling my mom & dad that they can visit me if they really want, but I reminded them (1) I think flying is pretty dangerous right now and I'm not flying anywhere and (2) I will minimize contact with anyone who has been flying. So if they visit me, I can talk to them outdoors and go for walks, but I won't be spending any significant time indoors with them because I think the risk is too high. That means I won't eat at a restaurant with them, won't sit together for dinners.

I think they interpret all of this as an unfriendly response. I just think flying and spending time in airports is dangerous.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

And let me add, I haven't been neglecting my parents. They've been seeing lots of me. In fact, I lived in the same condo building as them for the last few months (all winter) and they saw me constantly.

They just got very used to that, and are a bit upset now that I live much farther away. I will still visit them occasionally -- as I always have.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> And let me add, I haven't been neglecting my parents. They've been seeing lots of me. In fact, I lived in the same condo building as them for the last few months (all winter) and they saw me constantly.
> 
> They just got very used to that, and are a bit upset now that I live much farther away. I will still visit them occasionally -- as I always have.


From that response and your other comments in #80, I have to say you are not painting a very flattering picture of your parents. You're making them sound like spoiled kids or doddering old idiots with no common sense.

One of my sons who lives 3 hours away by car has made a habit of visiting us for a day every Canada Day weekend for the last 10 years or so. It's not his only visit but it has become a kind of 'traditional' time for a visit. This year we discussed it in early May and nixed the idea as neither he nor I could see much point in his visiting if we had to maintain distancing and couldn't even go out for a nice lunch together. That to me was just simple common sense.

We Skype every couple of weeks to keep each other up to date on what's happening and that's it. I don't expect to get a hug from any family member until there is a vaccine.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> And let me add, I haven't been neglecting my parents. They've been seeing lots of me. In fact, I lived in the same condo building as them for the last few months (all winter) and they saw me constantly.
> 
> They just got very used to that, and are a bit upset now that I live much farther away. I will still visit them occasionally -- as I always have.


You don't need to justify your actions or your parents. It makes sense that your parents got used to being around after you living in the US for a while. That's a good thing that they enjoyed your company. It's understandable that they would want to visit you. This is just not the time. 

Just remind them of the risks and you have been away from them for longer periods of time. There will be better times to visit. Just not now.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Plugging Along said:


> It's understandable that they would want to visit you. This is just not the time.


Good points overall. I completely agree; this is not the time.

Covid won't last forever. I believe we're still in the thick of it right now.


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## northernguy (Oct 19, 2013)

My partner's family are having some of the same disputes with some members being fairly conservative in their approach to Covid and others less worried, however the disputes seem to arise when one tries to push their views on the others. I'm not sure there is a 'right' approach, particularly when you factor in mental health considerations since everyone handles this thing differently. 

We avoid people who we know are going everywhere around town, but otherwise have not been completely locked away ourselves. If others think we're not being strict enough, then we accept that. My partner has one friend who has been brutally bad not following any public health rules/recommendations and she doesn't see her which has significantly hurt their friendship, but it happens. 

What I find hard to swallow at this point are people who want to lecture now - say your piece and leave people alone. Generally speaking, unless someone has completely lived under a rock they by now fully understand the risks associated with their actions and have made their own decisions. 

This post isn't directed at OP, just the discussion in general.


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