# Last Will and Testament: DIY or with a lawyer?



## pablito

Hi:

I'm embarrassed to admit that my wife and I are still without a last Will and Testament. This is something I aim to rectify ASAP and was wondering if people had thoughts on using the online DIY kits, wizards, etc.? Or am I talking crazy and should rush out to a proper lawyer and simply cough up the extra dough?

I am genuinely without a clue and so wanted to be sure the extra money I pay the lawyer for what I think is a fairly cookie cutter type situation is actually money well spent.

If some of you recommend the DIY route, which online service have you used?

Pab


----------



## OhGreatGuru

I recommend a lawyer, but shop around for a reasonably priced one. You should able to get it done for $300-$400 for the pair of you, but I have heard of people paying twice that. It helps to buy and read a DIY wills & estate guide so you will have a better understanding of what questions/information the lawyer will want, and so you will go to him/her prepared.


----------



## pablito

I've been Googling since I posted and concluded that a lawyer was the way to go. The type of service I had in mind when I asked were sites like
http://www.legalwills.ca and http://www.lawdepot.com.

Oddly enough, LegalWills.ca's press release discussing a CBC Market Watch piece (http://www.legalwills.ca/news_995_010710.aspx) had the opposite effect and convinced me that the online approach was not for me. It struck me that I wouldn't be all that comfortable with the idea of providing so much personal information to a seemingly anonymous web site.

OGG: You're suggestion of reading up before we go in is sound advice. Any recommendations? So far, I've found "You can't take it with you" by Sandra Foster and "The Canadian Guide to Will & Estate Planning" by Douglas Gray and John Budd.

Thanks for the reply!


----------



## canehdianman

Just to give you a ballpark idea - I work at a law firm in Calgary that does a lot of high-end estate planning. We charge $850 for a couple. This includes a will, personal directive and power of attorney for each person.

$300-$400 seems quite low, but it might be the fact that we deal with more affluent people that makes it cost more.


----------



## Elbyron

I think the choice all depends on the complexity of your estates. If they are "simple", then there's nothing wrong with a DIY Will, which usually holds up quite well in court. To decide if your needs are "simple", ask yourself these questions:
- are your assets easily identified and your ownership of those assets unquestionable?
- do you own real estate that is NOT jointly owned with the person whom you want to leave it to?
- is there likely to be any disputes over your estate (how well do your family members get along)?
- are you sure of how you want your estate distributed, or are you going to keep second-guessing yourself?

Probably the third point is the most important one, since the main benefit of having a lawyer do it is to produce a solid, loophole-free Will that leaves no room for argument. Whereas a self-produced Will might result in wording that could have differing interpretations, and it may cause problems for your family if they have difficulty resolving any conflicts that this may create.

I recently got married and creating a Will is now on my to-do list, so I looked around to see what my options are. Since my situation is very simple, I don't feel like I would gain much by spending $300 or more on a lawyer. It wasn't hard to find a FREE kit that you download and print (no submitting personal details online), then just fill in the blanks according to the provided instructions. For anyone interested, the one I intend to use is found on the Canadian Financial Security Program website. It includes the Last Will and Testament, Living Will, and Enduring Power of Attorney.


----------



## Rickson9

canehdianman said:


> Just to give you a ballpark idea - I work at a law firm in Calgary that does a lot of high-end estate planning. We charge $850 for a couple. This includes a will, personal directive and power of attorney for each person.
> 
> $300-$400 seems quite low, but it might be the fact that we deal with more affluent people that makes it cost more.


To be frank, $850 is a small price to pay when one may need to consider hundreds of thousands (or millions) of dollars of assets.


----------



## AntiBrian

Rickson9 said:


> To be frank, $850 is a small price to pay when one may need to consider hundreds of thousands (or millions) of dollars of assets.



But if there is no need to spend that money, it is a huge price.


A simple situation can be done without a lawyer. The old man did one up with a computer based kit [installed on the computer, not web] and just to be safe he had a Lawyer do the once over and it was fine.

Really how hard is it to say everything goes 50/50 to both kids [widow he be], and some boiler plate about predeceased. 
Or the house goes to X, account A goes to Y everything else goes to Z.

Granted if you have a horribly complicated asset set up, that is different but most don't.


----------



## OhGreatGuru

Any of the Self-Counsel series sold in bookstores in your province for writing wills, such as.: "Wills for (Ontario) - How to Make Your Own Will" or "Wills/Probate Procedure for (Ontario)"


----------



## pablito

Interesting follow-ups...

I called a few places locally (Greater Moncton area) and was quoted $300 for both of us. In one case, this included Power of Attorney while with another I'd have to shell out an extra $75 (not sure if that was one or both though).

That said, the free will kit that Elbyron points to seems interesting. I'm thinking I might use it to get something done quickly while I read through Sandra Foster's book (picked up a copy at the library yesterday). At the very least, it can act as a draft/first run while I come up to speed on the subject. Once I have a better idea about things, maybe I'll end up doing the lawyer thing... we'll see.

Thanks for all the feedback!


----------



## The Financial Blogger

As a Certified Financial Planner, I have written an Estate Planning series:


Basics of Estate Planning Part 1


Basics of Estate Planning Part 2

Basics of Estate Planning Part 3


Basics of Estate Planning Part 4

Basics of Estate Planning Part 5

Basics of Estate Planning Part 6

A lawyer will cover all possibilities and will make sure that you and your family are covered no matter how things go. If you do it yourself, you will definitely forget about a few situations and may request things that are illegal or cannot be done according to Canadian laws.


----------



## billiam

+1 Definitely would use a lawyers services for the all possibilities reference.

Looking at $350 to $400 in Ontario to get 2 wills and 4 POA's for a married couple in Ontario done by a lawyer.


----------



## dotnet_nerd

I used "WillExpert" software by Intuit. It was fairly user-friendly and easy to do myself.

http://www.intuit.ca/en/product/ProductDetail.jsp?skuId=T03P02W8070CN&location=4&catId=4


----------



## Belizean Beach Bum

Whether you do it yourself or use a lawyer, be sure to do your own research on your own particular circumstances.

My mother had a lawyer draw up a simple one page Will which was supposed to leave the estate equally divided between my brother and myself.

After mum died, another son who she had given up at birth and who I didn't know existed and who wasn't mentioned in the will, appeared and is claiming 1/3 of the estate.

Some lawyers chase ambulances but others chase hearses especially in BC with its (the courts know best) Wills Variation Act. Most ambulance riders would be able to represent themselves in court. The same cannot be said for those riding in the back of a hearse.

Do your research!


----------



## Maltese

Belizean Beach Bum said:


> Whether you do it yourself or use a lawyer, be sure to do your own research on your own particular circumstances.
> 
> My mother had a lawyer draw up a simple one page Will which was supposed to leave the estate equally divided between my brother and myself.
> 
> After mum died, another son who she had given up at birth and who I didn't know existed and who wasn't mentioned in the will, appeared and is claiming 1/3 of the estate.
> 
> Some lawyers chase ambulances but others chase hearses especially in BC with its (the courts know best) Wills Variation Act. Most ambulance riders would be able to represent themselves in court. The same cannot be said for those riding in the back of a hearse.
> 
> Do your research!


I find your story interesting and will do some research on the Wills Variation Act in BC. Do you know how your mother could have worded her will differently to avoid this situation? 

What a headache for you and your sibling to go through. It's bad enough losing a loved one without having to go to court afterwards.


----------



## Maltese

I found the post on the BC Wills Variation Act interesting so did a search to learn more. I found a legal blog that has a series of articles on the topic. The blog can be found at:

http://rulelaw.blogspot.com/2005/09/wills-variation-act-who-may-apply.html

Below is what it says about the topic as it relates to Belize's post:

“Child” and “Children” are not defined in the Wills Variation Act, but includes a natural child, whether the child is born inside or outside of marriage, and an adopted child. 

Neither a natural child of the deceased who has been adopted out to other parents, nor a stepchild has any claim under the Wills Variation Act. Even a minor stepchild who was dependant on the deceased cannot apply for a share of the estate under the Wills Variation Act. The British Columbia Supreme Court held that the exclusion of step children from the Wills Variation Act does not offend the equality provisions of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms in McCrea v. Barrett, 2004 BCSC 208.

Belize, is there a court date set for your case or is it still in the preliminary stage? I'm very interested in learning more if you are willing to share.


----------



## Belizean Beach Bum

Yes, there are a lot of good articles out there about how Wills may be varied by the courts. 

www.duhaime.org/LegalResources/ElderLawWillsTrustsEstates/LawArticle-547/Wills-Variation-For-Dependants-in-Canada.aspx is also very interesting, especially the last line 



> ...the only person sure to make $350 an hour on the estate is a member of the Law Society.


----------



## BobRose

I actually used the service at www.legalwills.ca referred to earlier on in this thread and found it to be very convenient and easy to use. They also allow you to go back at a later date and make any changes to it.

I know it doesn't work for every situation but I knew that I wanted to leave everything to my wife, and have an alternative in case something happened to both of us. It seemed a little too much to pay $400 for legal advice and book an appointment with a lawyer, so this service worked well for us.


----------



## Racer

In my limited experience, the will itself is merely a by-product of the more valuable will-making process -- it's easy enough to read through a will and say "I could have done that" without recognizing everything that was ruled out. 

One person brought in their own will and asked me to simply review it and notarize it, but I refused. The important part of doing a will is not the end product -- it is the information interview, when the entire estate is reviewed, and there is opportunity to ask the questions about the things that might derail an estate down the road. Not worth the risk of having them leave and tell their family that my firm okayed it. 

One of the benefits of doing a will with a lawyer is that it theoretically transfers the risk of preparing the will negligently. If the lawyer screws up the will (which is surprisingly easy to do with certain types of estates, such as farmers who are land-rich and cash-poor), you can make a claim against the lawyer. All lawyers carry insurance for this sort of thing. 

Another benefit to doing a will with a lawyer is that it decreases the possibility of the will being overturned because of a technicality related to improper execution -- the testator was looking the other way at the time that one of the witnesses signed, etc. Ridiculous. But my province has deeply flawed wills legislation. Maybe Ontario's act makes more sense. 

I bought one of those will kits a few years ago, and it was full of interesting advice and helpful tips. Worth the money (only $30) just for the way that it made me think about wills in a different way.


----------



## Belizean Beach Bum

Racer said:


> One of the benefits of doing a will with a lawyer is that it theoretically transfers the risk of preparing the will negligently. If the lawyer screws up the will (which is surprisingly easy to do with certain types of estates, such as farmers who are land-rich and cash-poor), you can make a claim against the lawyer. All lawyers carry insurance for this sort of thing.


Is a lawyer still covered by insurance when he retires? The lawyer my mother used is retired and has no interest in looking for his old files. Our estate lawyer appears to have no interest in chasing him down for the information.


----------



## Racer

The answer to your question is yes. Whenever the negligent act took place, as long as he was insured (and all practicing lawyers are insured as a req of their law society or governing body), there is a possibility of making a claim. The rule of thumb is that you have two years from the date of the wrong to make a legal claim. With wills, that 2-year deadline is calculated in a different way -- such as from the date the wrong was discoverable by the beneficiaries, or something like that.

In your case it doesn't seem likely that it was the lawyer who made an error. It would be negligent not to ask someone how many children they had -- but if they did ask and the testator said "2", then the lawyer can't be faulted for not questioning that. Different story if she said "2 that I keep in touch with". The current lawyer you have may not want to incur the extra fees it will take to chase down what is likely a dead end. It doesn't hurt to ask your current lawyer what their reasoning is for not checking on that. 

Sorry to hear of your situation and best of luck.


----------



## pmmpa

*Last Will and Testament (online DIY)*

So I have a website, Dynamic Lawyers, that offers lawyer-prepared Last Wills and Testaments for Ontario and Alberta (with more on the way). 

My legal forms that are customizable, written in English, and affordable (only $47 plus tax). The best thing is that I actually take the time to educate people on not only how to fill out the form, but also what important legal issues they should be aware of when actually doing so! For example, will other websites that sell legal forms provide you with a written guide that is over 40 or 50 pages of well-researched and written information about Wills? I haven't seen anything. Do they explain to you what certain common latin terms that always appear in wills mean - like per stirpes or per capita. Well I haven't seen that, but I do in my written guides. 

The bottom line is that, if you're shopping around for Wills, Powers of Attorney, Codicils, Revocations, Living Wills, etc., it's pretty easy to get a form online - but very difficult to get your questions answered. And failure to do things with knowledge can lead to costly litigation. For example: do other websites give you an Affidavit of Execution for your witnesses to sign in front of a commissioner for taking oaths? I haven't seen them offer that, but I do. Why is it needed? Because when someone goes to probate (i.e. legally certify) a deceased person's Will, they will typically need to include these affidavits in the application process. So it's best to get them done at the same time as the Will is being prepared. That just saved a lot of headache in trying to find witnesses to a Will who may have moved far away or who may have passed away themselves. It's this kind of legal information that will save you time and money.


----------



## Drakestar

in regards to executors....we were talking to a family friend that works at TD Canada Trust.

He said that they are getting more and more people in (to the bank) that are using the bank as the executor because 
they are truly a neutral third party, 
they want to move the process along so that they get paid, 
and because the fee payable to the executor (bank in this case) is fixed (so cost no more than having a friend be the executor).

are any of you members doing this?


----------



## LBCfan

pmmpa said:


> So I have a website, Dynamic Lawyers, that offers lawyer-prepared Last Wills and Testaments for Ontario and Alberta (with more on the way).
> 
> My legal forms that are customizable, written in English, and affordable (only $47 plus tax). The best thing is that I actually take the time to educate people on not only how to fill out the form, but also what important legal issues they should be aware of when actually doing so! For example, will other websites that sell legal forms provide you with a written guide that is over 40 or 50 pages of well-researched and written information about Wills? I haven't seen anything. Do they explain to you what certain common latin terms that always appear in wills mean - like per stirpes or per capita. Well I haven't seen that, but I do in my written guides.
> 
> The bottom line is that, if you're shopping around for Wills, Powers of Attorney, Codicils, Revocations, Living Wills, etc., it's pretty easy to get a form online - but very difficult to get your questions answered. And failure to do things with knowledge can lead to costly litigation. For example: do other websites give you an Affidavit of Execution for your witnesses to sign in front of a commissioner for taking oaths? I haven't seen them offer that, but I do. Why is it needed? Because when someone goes to probate (i.e. legally certify) a deceased person's Will, they will typically need to include these affidavits in the application process. So it's best to get them done at the same time as the Will is being prepared. That just saved a lot of headache in trying to find witnesses to a Will who may have moved far away or who may have passed away themselves. It's this kind of legal information that will save you time and money.


Hmmm, first post a link to a commercial site.

Do I detect this?


----------



## NorthernRaven

LBCfan said:


> Hmmm, first post a link to a commercial site.
> 
> Do I detect this?


He does say it is his website, so it is advertising, but he wasn't really trying to hide it.


----------



## LBCfan

Is there a difference between "hidden" SPAM and "blatant" SPAM?


----------



## the-royal-mail

I'm usually pretty alert to spam and website plugs but in this case the poster actually made some effort to participate in the discussion and type out more than one sentence (as many spammers do). In the context of participating in the discussion, I personally didn't mind. You can tell a lot by the person's tone and pmmpa's didn't sound like spam to me. But, I could be wrong, just my 2 cents.


----------



## calgaryimmigration

Hi I think it would be wise if you hire a lawyer rather than resorting to a non-lawyer document preparation services, form books, or programs that will promise you "do-it-yourself". However folks often choose not to do so and the usual reason is the presumed expense of legal services.


----------



## caricole

Unbeleivable how all these PROFESSIONALS preaching for their own parish

How many wlls will you have to write in a lifetime if you listen to them, dont tell me they gone *write a will for an 18 year old lad THAT WILL LAST TILL HIS DEAD AT 75*

My view

Handwritten will, no cost

1) At 18, I leave everything to my parents

2) At 25, I leave everything tu my wife (girlfrien)

3) At 30, I leave everything in equal parts to my wife, 50% and to my 2 children 25% each, and name my brother gardian of the minor children

4) At 45, I leave everything to my wife (girlfrienD, in case she PRE-DECEASES ME leave everything in equal parts to my 3 children 

*5) Finaly, at the age of 60, you go to a lawyer (Notary) and make a Notarized will*, you spend the money once, and hope it will last up and till you die. You name an executor (liquidator) not the notary, not the bank, a person with integrity and the knowledge to fill an incometaxreturn, that's about all it takes of knowledge to complete 95% of all wills for the ORDINARY PEOPLE


----------



## Squash500

caricole said:


> Unbeleivable how all these PROFESSIONALS preaching for their own parish
> 
> How many wlls will you have to write in a lifetime if you listen to them, dont tell me they gone *write a will for an 18 year old lad THAT WILL LAST TILL HIS DEAD AT 75*
> 
> My view
> 
> Handwritten will, no cost
> 
> 1) At 18, I leave everything to my parents
> 
> 2) At 25, I leave everything tu my wife (girlfrien)
> 
> 3) At 30, I leave everything in equal parts to my wife, 50% and to my 2 children 25% each, and name my brother gardian of the minor children
> 
> 4) At 45, I leave everything to my wife (girlfrienD, in case she PRE-DECEASES ME leave everything in equal parts to my 3 children
> 
> *5) Finaly, at the age of 60, you go to a lawyer (Notary) and make a Notarized will*, you spend the money once, and hope it will last up and till you die. You name an executor (liquidator) not the notary, not the bank, a person with integrity and the knowledge to fill an incometaxreturn, that's about all it takes of knowledge to complete 95% of all wills for the ORDINARY PEOPLE


 IMHO you should always hire a lawyer when doing your will. Why take any unnecessary chances...especially when you have a complicated estate? Spend the $300-$350 on a proper wills and estates lawyer and have piece of mind going forward.


----------



## fraser

I recommend working with a lawyer.

I would not recommend phoning around for a price. I would recommend that you ask around to see if you can get a recommendation(s) from a someone who has used the services of the lawyer for wills and were pleased with the advice/service. 

We actually bought the will kit just so that we could understand what was involved, what we needed to think about prior to meeting the lawyer, etc. This approach worked well for us.


----------



## humble_pie

caricole said:


> 3) At 30, I leave everything in equal parts to my wife, 50% and to my 2 children 25% each, and name my brother gardian of the minor children


caricole i believe this might be an example of how will planning by lay persons can sometimes get into trouble.

assuming that the wife here is also the mother of the 2 children, who apparently are minors, i am not sure that anyone else can be named "guardian of the minor children." I don't believe that her rights as parent can be so easily stripped from her by your will.

even assuming that were the case, how could "25% each" be bequeathed to the minor children? as minors, they cannot inherit.


----------



## My Own Advisor

Did it with our lawyer. Some of the best money we ever spent.


----------



## fraser

Keep in mind that the laws concerning wills and estates vary by province.


----------



## caricole

humble_pie said:


> caricole i believe this might be an example of how will planning by lay persons can sometimes get into trouble.
> 
> assuming that the wife here is also the mother of the 2 children, who apparently are minors, i am not sure that anyone else can be named "guardian of the minor children." I don't believe that her rights as parent can be so easily stripped from her by your will.
> 
> even assuming that were the case, how could "25% each" be bequeathed to the minor children? as minors, they cannot inherit.


Being French, the choise of the term "GARDIAN" could be wrong...sorry :cower::cower:

I think the term *"TUTOR"* is more appropriate and way better

An outside person (from the family) who wil administer the part inherited by a minor child and report once a year to the governement the result of his administration

A minor child can certainly inherit, but it will be administered by a tutor, up and till the age of 18 or 21..or somtimes 25 before they can dispose of it freely

You dont need a lawyer for this, omly a "FAMILY COUNCEL OF 7 PERSONS"


----------



## Russ

My father passed away before my mother died, and he left a 50-year-old will that he had been required to prepare before going overseas during WW2. I was shocked that he had never updated it. 

I decided to handle the will myself. If I recall, I was appointed administrator by the court. I had to find one of the witnesses from 50 years earlier in order to get an affidavit stating he had witnessed the signing of the will. The witnesses were two fellow soldiers from the pay corps who had witnessed dozens of wills for soldiers as part of their duties. I was incredibly lucky and tracked one of them down. He was a very dignified but somewhat frail gentleman who did not remember my father but agreed it was his signature. He went with me to visit a lawyer and he signed an affidavit. 

The will and the estate were not complicated, but it was quite an effort to manage everything. I don't know how much I saved the estate with my efforts, but after my mother died I guess my small inheritance was greater due to my efforts. But the same was true for my 5 siblings - due to my efforts. I was my mother's executor, and I settled her estate too. If I am ever an executor again I'll get a lawyer to handle it. It is not fun.


----------



## humble_pie

no, caricole, in this case the mother is still alive, according to your plan. She will remain the sole parent & guardian of her minor children. Her rights cannot be extinguished in any province in canada. It will not be possible for a will to appoint any other person as tutor to her own minor children.

i believe the confusion arises because you are imagining a situation in which the testator dies & at the same time his wife dies, perhaps in a common accident. In such a case the minor orphan children would need a tutor. But this scenario immediately raises another problem in your plan, which is that the minor children cannot inherit & this raw amateur-planned will makes no provision for the trust management of the inheritance.

i'll stop right here, because in quebec there would be even more crippling complications. Suffice to say that a will drawn up by an experienced estate lawyer would not present unworkable scenarios like this.


----------



## humble_pie

Russ said:


> My father passed away before my mother died, and he left a 50-year-old will that he had been required to prepare before going overseas during WW2.
> 
> I decided to handle the will myself ... I had to find one of the witnesses from 50 years earlier in order to get an affidavit stating he had witnessed the signing of the will. The witnesses were two fellow soldiers from the pay corps who had witnessed dozens of wills for soldiers as part of their duties. I was incredibly lucky and tracked one of them down. He was a very dignified but somewhat frail gentleman who did not remember my father but agreed it was his signature. He went with me to visit a lawyer and he signed an affidavit.
> 
> The will and the estate were not complicated, but it was quite an effort to manage everything ... I was my mother's executor, and I settled her estate too. If I am ever an executor again I'll get a lawyer to handle it. It is not fun.



bravo ! your dad would be proud of you


----------



## Plugging Along

I know people here are DIY however, I think when there are sizable estates, or children involved, it makes sense to pay the extra for a lawyer. We are talking a few hundred dollars. One does not want to be 'penny wise pound foolish'. 

Sure at 18, one could write will on a napkin. What is there to lose, most of them will not have much of an estate, and there is no one depending on them. Once you start adding spouses, or more importantly kids who depend on this, then you have to ask yourself, in the case of your untimely death, do you really want your loved ones going through a step more of inconvenience than they don't have too. I am sure the benefactors of the estate would have rather had less $1000 inheritance then having people run around.

In AB , it used to be that anything that was not written in the deceased own handwriting was not considered legal. This included those will kits, other than the parts that were hand written, everything else could be contested as it was not proven that the person was on sound mind or did it themselves. I don't know if this is still true with computers and the Internet, but I wouldn't want my family to suffer. To me just too high of a consequence.


----------



## sags

None of the simplistic examples of wills, gives any direction to the executor on how to handle some matters that fall under their fiduciary duty to the beneficiaries.

How do the debts get paid.........funeral expenses, income taxes, probate fees, land transfer taxes, outstanding GST?

Is cash set aside for such purposes or will assets need to be sold? Which assets and in what order? Are the assets to be sold, part of an inheritance to a named beneficiary? How will the executor "treat all beneficiaries equally" if they are selling their asset to pay debts?

Dealing with minor children or mentally incapable adults is another issue. As far as I have determined , some Provinces require an independent (not a parent) advocate represent their interests.

Also not dealt with.........the preservation and maintenance of estate assets (as required of the executor).

How the executor chooses to proceed (without specific direction in the will) to maintain a business or farm, or how they choose to invest cash holdings.........can all be subject to a challenge from beneficiaries who feel the executor failed in their duties. What if the executor invests all the money into the stock market and loses 50% of it? Should he have invested in GICs to preserve the estate? Is the executor held legally and financially responsible for the losses?

Direction on how to proceed with these other things...........is just as important as the division of assets.


----------



## VoxPopuli

I'm a lawyer, and I think a lot of legal services don't provide great value for the consumer. Wills, on the other hand, are a veritable bargain (our office charges $650 for a set of two wills, powers of attorney, and health care directives (sometimes called living wills)). 

I've handled several litigation files where people have tried to save money by doing their wills themselves. They ended up costing their beneficiaries thousands, to save a couple of hundred dollars. One woman- a professional- typed up her own will using a kit. She only got one signature on the will- a neighbour who was already quite old when he witnessed the will. That automatically meant that the will was not a formal legal will (which requires two signatures in my province), so that at a minimum, an expensive and time-consuming court application would have been required to administer the will, and the distribution of assets would be delayed for months.

It was worse, however. When the woman died, years later, the lone witness had dementia and could not verify that the signature was his or that he witnessed the will. The two sons believed the two daughters had applied undue influence at the time the will was written (the will broke a long-held promise to gift farmland to one of the sons), and the lone witness was of little use to testify to the mother's capacity or undue influence by the daughters. We eventually settled the matter without the need for court, but the total legal bills for both sides consumed about $20,000 of a $200,000 estate.

When I do a will for a client, I am essentially providing a formal legal opinion on capacity, one that a court will likely find reliable if the will is disputed down the road. I take detailed notes if your capacity is at all in issue. In my province a will can be challenged on the basis it does not adequately provided for a dependant (which can include an adult child in some circumstances). I therefore take detailed notes about your instructions when someone is left out of a will or receives a lesser share, which can be helpful if that individual ever challenges the will down the road. I talk to you about the possibility of setting up a trust for any beneficiaries that might be under 18 (or 25 at the time of your death). I talk about what will happen if at the time of your death you no longer own the particular home, or car, or antique watch that you want to gift to a specific person. We will usually have one lawyer and an articling student or legal assistant sign as witnesses, which means the witnesses will be easy to find decades down the road when one of the witnesses must swear that they witnessed the signing of the will. We keep a copy of the Will in our fireproof safe, or file it at the courthouse, depending on your preference. We also ask questions to rule out potential problems (like hidden offspring, or complex assets, or contingent gifts).

In the end, the document I draft usually looks superficially similar to a well-done "kit" Will. The work is behind the scenes, and well worth the money, in my opinion.





caricole said:


> Unbeleivable how all these PROFESSIONALS preaching for their own parish
> 
> How many wlls will you have to write in a lifetime if you listen to them, dont tell me they gone *write a will for an 18 year old lad THAT WILL LAST TILL HIS DEAD AT 75*
> 
> My view
> 
> Handwritten will, no cost
> 
> 1) At 18, I leave everything to my parents
> 
> 2) At 25, I leave everything tu my wife (girlfrien)
> 
> 3) At 30, I leave everything in equal parts to my wife, 50% and to my 2 children 25% each, and name my brother gardian of the minor children
> 
> 4) At 45, I leave everything to my wife (girlfrienD, in case she PRE-DECEASES ME leave everything in equal parts to my 3 children
> 
> *5) Finaly, at the age of 60, you go to a lawyer (Notary) and make a Notarized will*, you spend the money once, and hope it will last up and till you die. You name an executor (liquidator) not the notary, not the bank, a person with integrity and the knowledge to fill an incometaxreturn, that's about all it takes of knowledge to complete 95% of all wills for the ORDINARY PEOPLE


This post is pretty good evidence of how bad people are at drafting their own wills, unfortunately.


----------



## Squash500

VoxPopuli said:


> I'm a lawyer, and I think a lot of legal services don't provide great value for the consumer. Wills, on the other hand, are a veritable bargain (our office charges $650 for a set of two wills, powers of attorney, and health care directives (sometimes called living wills)).
> 
> I've handled several litigation files where people have tried to save money by doing their wills themselves. They ended up costing their beneficiaries thousands, to save a couple of hundred dollars. One woman- a professional- typed up her own will using a kit. She only got one signature on the will- a neighbour who was already quite old when he witnessed the will. That automatically meant that the will was not a formal legal will (which requires two signatures in my province), so that at a minimum, an expensive and time-consuming court application would have been required to administer the will, and the distribution of assets would be delayed for months.
> 
> It was worse, however. When the woman died, years later, the lone witness had dementia and could not verify that the signature was his or that he witnessed the will. The two sons believed the two daughters had applied undue influence at the time the will was written (the will broke a long-held promise to gift farmland to one of the sons), and the lone witness was of little use to testify to the mother's capacity or undue influence by the daughters. We eventually settled the matter without the need for court, but the total legal bills for both sides consumed about $20,000 of a $200,000 estate.
> 
> When I do a will for a client, I am essentially providing a formal legal opinion on capacity, one that a court will likely find reliable if the will is disputed down the road. I take detailed notes if your capacity is at all in issue. In my province a will can be challenged on the basis it does not adequately provided for a dependant (which can include an adult child in some circumstances). I therefore take detailed notes about your instructions when someone is left out of a will or receives a lesser share, which can be helpful if that individual ever challenges the will down the road. I talk to you about the possibility of setting up a trust for any beneficiaries that might be under 18 (or 25 at the time of your death). I talk about what will happen if at the time of your death you no longer own the particular home, or car, or antique watch that you want to gift to a specific person. We will usually have one lawyer and an articling student or legal assistant sign as witnesses, which means the witnesses will be easy to find decades down the road when one of the witnesses must swear that they witnessed the signing of the will. We keep a copy of the Will in our fireproof safe, or file it at the courthouse, depending on your preference. We also ask questions to rule out potential problems (like hidden offspring, or complex assets, or contingent gifts).
> 
> In the end, the document I draft usually looks superficially similar to a well-done "kit" Will. The work is behind the scenes, and well worth the money, in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This post is pretty good evidence of how bad people are at drafting their own wills, unfortunately.


 Excellent post.


----------



## OK-bachelor

I have no spouse or kids , but my sister and I own property, that we all live on ( including her husband and daughter) . The title is 50/50 between her and I , including all costs and payments . If I was no longer on this earth , before leaving , I would want to protect my sister and her daughter , if my sister and husband were to divorce . I would leave him my dirt bike , but not the house  Is this too complicated for a DIY kit ?


----------



## humble_pie

OK-bachelor said:


> I have no spouse or kids , but my sister and I own property, that we all live on ( including her husband and daughter) . The title is 50/50 between her and I , including all costs and payments . If I was no longer on this earth , before leaving , I would want to protect my sister and her daughter , if my sister and husband were to divorce . I would leave him my dirt bike , but not the house  Is this too complicated for a DIY kit ?



it's a bit complicated because you'd have to leave your interest in the house to your sister; failing sister, to her daughter.

how old is the daughter? it would help a lot if a) she were old enough to be close to the age where she could inherit the house interest outright, should your sister most unfortunately predecease you; or b) be sure to not die, yourself, until said daughter is close to the age of majority.

if the wee girl is still young, perhaps you'd want to leave the BIL in the line of succession? keep in mind that in this scenario, you have died, your sister has died, but the wee girl is still alive & the only person she has left to take care of her is her Dad.

since you like the BIL well enough to bequeath him your motorcycle, wouldn't you want this wee motherless, uncle-less child to live in the house with her father? or at least to have that choice?


----------



## MoneyGal

OK-bachelor said:


> I have no spouse or kids , but my sister and I own property, that we all live on ( including her husband and daughter) . The title is 50/50 between her and I , including all costs and payments . If I was no longer on this earth , before leaving , I would want to protect my sister and her daughter , if my sister and husband were to divorce . I would leave him my dirt bike , but not the house  Is this too complicated for a DIY kit ?


Far too risky for a DIY kit. In this case, the will needs to consider - and you need to be clear about - the impact of family law in respect of a matrimonial home occupied by your sister's husband.


----------



## birdman

Just finished paying $450.00 for for my wife and my wills, Powers of Attorney, and Living Wills. Hec of a deal but our situation is straight forward.


----------



## humble_pie

another thing you could do - if you were hell-bent on trying to prevent any interest in your house legacy from going to the brother-in-law - might be something like this:

sell your interest in the house to your sister, then continue on living there as a renter.

the funds you would receive from the sale of house interest would then become the estate that you would bequeath to your sister in outright ownership; failing sister, to her daughter. This inheritance would, presumably, not fall into the communal marital property pool if sister & BIL were to divorce. Unlike the marital home, which would be shared in the event of a marital breakup.

again, anything for the daughter depends upon how old she is. If she is very young & if both you & your sister would insist on departing this earth at an early age, then your legacy would probably be made over to her surviving parent, her father. Your brother-in-law.

ubiquitous, isn't he?


----------



## alingva

OhGreatGuru said:


> I recommend a lawyer, but shop around for a reasonably priced one. You should able to get it done for $300-$400 for the pair of you, but I have heard of people paying twice that. It helps to buy and read a DIY wills & estate guide so you will have a better understanding of what questions/information the lawyer will want, and so you will go to him/her prepared.


 $400 is a reasonable price and probably it will include POA (Power of Attorney) as well . Read this article


----------



## OK-bachelor

MoneyGal said:


> Far too risky for a DIY kit. In this case, the will needs to consider - and you need to be clear about - the impact of family law in respect of a matrimonial home occupied by your sister's husband.



Good points , just in case lightening strikes twice , I will add the BIL in succession on my will . My wee niece is only three , and her well being ,with a roof over her head, comes first. 
My sister and I are on the property title , but my BIL is not . If they divorced , and I was still alive , would it be as simple as selling the property ,and splitting it 50/50 ,or could it get messy ? I pay 50% of everything , and they pay 50% as a married couple . 
This is rather hypothetical , as their marriage seems to be working , and none of us are dying yet .


----------



## fraser

If you truly care about the welfare of the people you leave behind and who are connected to your estate, then do them a HUGE favour and have your wills, POA's etc. completed by a lawyer and reviewed on a periodic basis. You might also consider pre arranging your funeral depending on the circumstances. These are the last good things that you can do for your family/heirs

I have been the executor of two will and have managed the affairs of one. These tasks were made much easier by the existence of wills and POA's. A friend of mine is still dealing with issues pertaining her mother's estate four years after the death. It is exacting a huge toll-emotionally and financially on all family members connected to the estate.


----------



## alingva

fraser said:


> If you truly care about the welfare of the people you leave behind and who are connected to your estate, then do them a HUGE favour and have your wills, POA's etc. completed by a lawyer and reviewed on a periodic basis. You might also consider pre arranging your funeral depending on the circumstances. These are the last good things that you can do for your family/heirs


100% right.
I deal with Estates as a professional, every time I am shocked to find out how people try to save $400 but their relatives have to spend tens of thousands $ on lawyers, courts, taxes etc. Do your will with a lawyer for your own family.


----------



## the-royal-mail

Some questions came up about this recently and I am wondering if anyone here knows the answers. I had my will written up 3 years ago and for some reason I cannot find the original document. All I can seem to locate are copies. Who normally gets the original(s)? Does the lawyer keep it on their premisis? If acting as executor for someone, does that individual get the original copy as soon as it is prepared?

Reason I ask is someone I know was informed a few years back they were a relative's executor, but they do not have the will. Shouldn't they get a hold of the will now, while the person is still living?


----------



## Eclectic12

For my uncle's will, the lawyer kept the original in his safe. Everyone else got copies.

I can't recall if my mom & aunt received an original while acting as executors. 


Yes - it makes sense that the executor has a copy (not necessarily the original) while the person is still living. That way, if there are any questions about intent behind any of the wording - a discussion can be initiated. This would get the info "from the horse's mouth". :biggrin:


That said - my aunt refused to release a copy to my dad so he would have found out the details after her death. He was incapacitated so he asked her to find a new executor. It turned out to be a good plan as he's pre-deceased her by eight years and still counting.


At bare minimum - they should get from the relative what law firm the will was done by and what sort of safe keeping the original is under.

Cheers


----------



## VoxPopuli

If the Will was done with the help of a lawyer, it's very likely the lawyer kept the original in a fire safe in their office (You should be able to call and confirm this with the law office). In some provinces at least, it's also possible the original was filed with the local superior court.


----------



## the-royal-mail

Thanks for the responses. Does the executor have access to those originals on request? It sounds like they should have the original copy as soon as it has been prepared and the person's wishes be discussed with the executor. It does not sound like that happened in this case, so it would seem they would be left to figure everything out in the dark, without having the will in their possession today.

As for my will, I found the copies and it says on them that I have the originals. I must have given the original to my executor. I will double check this. How soon I forgot a lot of this stuff!


----------



## carverman

the-royal-mail said:


> As for my will, I found the copies and it says on them that I have the originals. I must have given the original to my executor. I will double check this. How soon I forgot a lot of this stuff!


The problem with lawyers doing your will (as I found out), is that they tend to move around between legal firms. 
My original will was kept at the lawyer's document repository at the law office where the will was done. When the lawyer left the firm, I got a letter that my will was still 
there with the legal firm,, and asked me what I wanted done with it. 
I requested that the original be sent to me. Now I have it in my file of "Important papers" and a copy has been given to my executor who is fully aware that I have the original.
AFAIK, for distribution of your estate, the original signed will is required, photocopies will not be accepted.

I suppose if the executor knows which legal firm has the original will, it may be still an option, but better to have an important document with you so that you can make
changes (codicils) to the will without the presence of a lawyer again..only two witnesses. Any changes on the codicil should be filed along with the original signed will.


----------



## Eclectic12

the-royal-mail said:


> Thanks for the responses.
> 
> Does the executor have access to those originals on request?


Yes ... my uncle set his up so that it would not be released to my mom/aunt until they provided proof of his death.




the-royal-mail said:


> It sounds like they should have the original copy as soon as it has been prepared and the person's wishes be discussed with the executor. It does not sound like that happened in this case, so it would seem they would be left to figure everything out in the dark, without having the will in their possession today.
> 
> As for my will, I found the copies and it says on them that I have the originals. I must have given the original to my executor. I will double check this. How soon I forgot a lot of this stuff!


Being aware of the contents ... sure. 

I would not want to take on the safe keeping of the original, whether it is mine or where I was acting as an executor.

Then too, when applying for the certificate of appointment, it appears only a copy is needed.
http://www.estatelawcanada.ca/how-do-i-get-a-copy-of-someones-will/
http://www.ontario.ca/government/what-do-when-someone-dies
http://www.mrwills.com/legal-services/estate-executors/
http://www.mrwills.com/legal-services/estate-executors/#now-what

Then too ... "Sometimes, an executor can prove that a lawyer held the original will. 
If Olivis (i.e. the deceased) had it and it cannot be found, then it is presumed that someone destroyed it."
http://executorschool.com/estate-executors-original-wills-required-for-probate/


If the original is lost and everyone is agreeable, it appears to be a simple process. However, when money is involved as part of an estate, I've seen otherwise reasonable people do strange things.
http://www.justanswer.com/canada-law/73h1c-executor-mom-s-estate-copy.html




carverman said:


> The problem with lawyers doing your will (as I found out), is that they tend to move around between legal firms.
> My original will was kept at the lawyer's document repository at the law office where the will was done. When the lawyer left the firm, I got a letter that my will was still there with the legal firm,, and asked me what I wanted done with it.
> 
> I requested that the original be sent to me. Now I have it in my file of "Important papers" and a copy has been given to my executor who is fully aware that I have the original. AFAIK, for distribution of your estate, the original signed will is required, photocopies will not be accepted.


As long as there isn't flood, fire or the original is accidentally thrown out or lost - that's fine. I suspect the law office has much better protection in place than I would have at home. As per the link quoted above, not having the original will makes it easier for any who disagree with the will to cause problems.




carverman said:


> I suppose if the executor knows which legal firm has the original will, it may be still an option, but better to have an important document with you so that you can make changes (codicils) to the will without the presence of a lawyer again..only two witnesses. Any changes on the codicil should be filed along with the original signed will.


It depends on what one want to take on. I personally can't see making so many changes that having the original at hand would outweigh the need for safeguards.


Cheers


----------



## carverman

Eclectic12 said:


> As long as there isn't flood, fire or the original is accidentally thrown out or lost - that's fine. I suspect the law office has much better protection in place than I would have at home.


Point taken, but if there was fire (electrical or natural gas explosion), and a catastrophic flood where my house was swept away off it's foundation, I would have to go back to a lawyer and have a new one made up. So far, it hasn't been a problem. The other thing I could do is rent a safety deposit box, but that costs money and I have no other reason to rent one from the banks.
I could however, get a fireproof safe and put all my important documents in it..but then I would have to give the combo to my executor, if I'm no longer around.






> It depends on what one want to take on. I personally can't see making so many changes that having the original at hand would outweigh the need for safeguards.


It all depends on your circumstances. I have added a couple more beneficiaries to my will through a codicil. So it's good to have the original around.
I suppose if I had a robbery, then lots of things could get stolen including my important papers with my will..but most thieves will prefer the big screen TV.:biggrin:


----------



## fraser

You must be able to register them in some provinces and perhaps store them.

I Probated my mothers estate. One of the first steps in the process was to contact the BC Gov't and have a search done to determine if she had any will(s) on file. It was an on line search.


----------



## Eclectic12

carverman said:


> Point taken, but if there was fire (electrical or natural gas explosion), and a catastrophic flood where my house was swept away off it's foundation, I would have to go back to a lawyer and have a new one made up. So far, it hasn't been a problem.


It would depend on surviving the event long enough to remember this needs to be done and as they say, "getting around to it". 

This also assumes no one mistakes your important papers for useless junk and tosses it before the executor arrives ... probably not a high risk but a risk none the less.




carverman said:


> I could however, get a fireproof safe and put all my important documents in it..but then I would have to give the combo to my executor, if I'm no longer around.


No necessarily ... the combo only matters if you want the safe to stay useful after your death. 
From the "Storage Wars" episodes I've seen - it appears to be time consuming but possible to get into the safes without destroying the contents.




carverman said:


> It all depends on your circumstances. I have added a couple more beneficiaries to my will through a codicil. So it's good to have the original around.
> 
> I suppose if I had a robbery, then lots of things could get stolen including my important papers with my will...


Interesting ... as indicated, YMMV.


Cheers


----------



## humble_pie

folks should not amend their lawyer-drawn wills by writing their own codicils imho. If one little detail isn't done right, that will be the end of the codicil & the directions in the original testament will apply.

theoretical question: why would a testator who first left out some potential heirs in the will, then included them later by means of a codicil, ever want those heirs to know what had happened? which they (the heirs) would certainly know as soon as they saw the original will & the later codicil.

also, why are folks looking for witnesses to will signings decades later? here in quebec, witnesses immediately sign affidavits that they were present at the signing of the will. The affidavits from the 2 witnesses are usually bound into the pages of the will itself. Seems to be a more reliable approach.


----------



## anne saxton

Hire a Will Attorney. An attorney can review the will you write, provide you with witnesses and ensure that you have met your state's requirements. This can be a costly option depending on your attorney’s fees and how complicated your will is. Wills that “unnaturally dispose” of the testator’s assets should always be overseen by an attorney. Unnatural disposition includes cutting your family out of the will, giving all of your assets to someone that is not in your family if you have living family members and giving your assets to someone that you have not known for very long. Use an online will writing service. This type of service will automatically ensure that your will is written according to your state's requirements. Online will writing services generally cost between $60 and $100, depending on how complicated your will is.


----------



## jimbob.seeker

I realize that this thread is several years old. However, I am wondering if anyone has an opinion on Axess Law (affiliated with Walmart) as a budget option to preparing "relatively simple" wills.

Any and all comments would be appreciated.


----------

