# Self employment



## ChaChing (Sep 16, 2017)

Hi all,

Just looking to see if anyone would like to share their experience (the good, the bad) on their journey to self employment. As with any topic, there are those who are for the idea and there are those who are against. Some say it’s the only way to success and others say that it’s really not as easy as one may think. I recall talking to a college instructor, who used to run her own company, that decided to become an employee again just because the benefits are better. And then there’s the hybrid type – those who work a regular 9-5 but also do consulting/side gigs during their free time in their area of expertise. 

Also, for those who are already self employed, are you working in a field which you are really passionate about (aka your calling)? I’m still in the early stages of my 2nd career. My first career path didn’t work out so well so I went to upgrade my skills in another field. I still have a long way to go in terms of gaining experience to be an expert in my new field but even then I don’t know if I see myself being in this field for the rest of my life. One area that I’m most passionate about is learning about investing and passive income sources. But I’m not looking to be a CFP or CFA of any sort.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

It really depends on the person. There are those who can be self employed and there are those who are meant to be employees. Desire is not they key, personality is. I've been self employed for most of my life, my sister tried to do it for a while after being laid off, but couldn't do it. I knew she didn't have the right personality from the start and was proved right even though I gave her all he support I could. 

As for your comments, I don't know anyone who got rich off a paycheque, but I do know many rich business owners. That being said, it certainly isn't easy and you have to have skills in all sorts of areas that an employee doesn't. You should have some idea of the area you work in, but also accounting, taxes, janitorial, marketing, promotion, human resources, etc. Oh, don't forget sales and job applications because you're always selling your company and it's products and each new client is a job interview. 

The one thing I always liked about working for myself is that the day is never the same. I do something different everyday. I need to solve problems all the time. I enjoy that. You always need to be forward looking as the world and the market is always changing. You can't be the type to want to do the same thing everyday. 

As for learning about investing and passive income, those have nothing to do with being self employed or being an employee. Working for money (however you do it) and getting your money working for you (investing) are two completely different things. I'd encourage you to learn about investing regardless of which path you choose because, if you're good at it, it gives you choices. If you have a passive income that supports you, you can choose whatever job you want, you aren't forced to work. You also could later choose to try being self employed if you want, however I find the need to succeed (because you'll starve if you fail) to be a good motivator when it comes to running your own business.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

As I see it, self-employed can be anything from someone who hires themselves out doing housecleaning to being the owner of a business empire. Some forms of self-employment can lead to owning a business empire, some less likely so. 

I agree with most of JAG's comments above. However, I have encountered a few who got rich off a paycheque. Of course "rich" is a relative term. One I know who now lives in my rural off-the-grad backwater, in his later years of employment as CEO of a large public company, was receiving annual compensation in the range of $2 million. I know that JAG runs a number of companies and has what is, perhaps, at least a small real estate empire with probably dozens of holdings. To someone in his league, $2 million a year might seem to be nowhere near "rich". To me, I see it as getting rich off a paycheque. I also know a fair number of people who draw salaries and in the order of $300,000 to $500,000 a year. While they have perhaps not become rich simply on that account, the ones I have in mind certainly appear to have substantial wealth. Some of that is accounted for by the fact that a paycheque of $30,000 a month or so allows one to save and invest and "rich" follows. They build up net worth through investing. Again, to some, a net worth of $5 million might mean "rich", while others would scoff and see that as pin money.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

No, I agree with you. People making those kinds of salaries are rich. I however, don't know anyone who managed to climb the ranks and make that kind of money. The ones that I know who make that kind of money made it in their own companies, either that or are some kind of personal corporation like a doctor or lawyer (though they are technically employees I guess). 

Of the people I went to school with and grew up with, none of them are multi-million dollar a year CEOs, but then I didn't grow up in a silver spoon neighbourhood. The wealthy people I know are all self made.


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## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

I agree with JAG comments on its about your personality which can also translate to the type of investor you are as well. If you are conservative and play it safe - i think you are most likely going to be an employee vs employer. 

I think if you have drive to have your own business you will put in the effort.


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## ChaChing (Sep 16, 2017)

Mukhang pera said:


> As I see it, self-employed can be anything from someone who hires themselves out doing housecleaning to being the owner of a business empire. Some forms of self-employment can lead to owning a business empire, some less likely so.


Hey Mukhang - So here's the real reason for my post. A few weeks ago, I had a heated but constructive conversation with my uncle. My uncle is a trades guy with no certification. My uncle also has a good friend who does landscaping and this guy makes way more than my uncle. Basically my uncle's career advice for me is to get myself a "skill" preferably a "trade" and go work for myself. Also, he's specifically suggesting that he's not talking about renting any store front or selling merchandise type of self employment. He's talking about a "one man show" just like himself. Independent contractor basically. He feels that my career field is a) the skill sets do not command high pay and b) accumulating wealth will be slow for me due to my career choice. He made the argument that for someone in my field to earn 100K/yr, this person needs to not only have the experience but the presence of a vacant position or the appointment by senior management. So the destiny is in someone else hands rather than the person's own. But for an independent contractor, he says, your success is dependent upon how hard you work. But then again, there has to be a demand for such skills and a good amount of customer base in order for the indie thing to work, I argued. At this stage, we were not talking about owning a business empire. We were just talking about making a good living


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Don't be a sucker. Get a government job, preferably federal. Working for yourself is an uphill pull in a cold rain.


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## ChaChing (Sep 16, 2017)

Just a Guy said:


> As for learning about investing and passive income, those have nothing to do with being self employed or being an employee. Working for money (however you do it) and getting your money working for you (investing) are two completely different things. I'd encourage you to learn about investing regardless of which path you choose because, if you're good at it, it gives you choices. If you have a passive income that supports you, you can choose whatever job you want, you aren't forced to work. You also could later choose to try being self employed if you want, however I find the need to succeed (because you'll starve if you fail) to be a good motivator when it comes to running your own business.


JAG - What I meant in my initial post is that I am thinking of ways to transform my interest in investing and turn it into a career. The whole point of my post was to read about those who are self employed and how they went about it/how they got their start. Secondly, I also wanted to see for myself if those who are self employed are really doing what they enjoy doing the most. You hear these cliches all the time, successful folks are so good at what they do and enjoy what it is that they do that they would do it for free.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

There are many employees who work for companies and look at what they are being billed out for and think, why don't I just go work for myself and charge out 3-10x what I'm being paid instead of letting the company get rich off my work.

Reality doesn't work that way. What the employee fails to consider is the overhead (office, utilities, tools, supplies they've been stealing, etc.), the other people who support them (janitors, accountants, lawyers, etc.), the benefits paid (vacation, health care, sick days, etc.) and their continued pay when you're between contracts (employees don't get laid off just because there's no work). They also don't realize that, when the employee is sick, someone has to fill in while they still get paid, that may mean the boss in a small business. 

When you own your own company, you don't work, you don't get paid. While working on one contract, you need to line up the next or you don't get paid. You get sick, injured, etc. You don't get paid (you also can have a hard time qualifying for things like insurance, ei benefits, etc.

There is a reason why employees only get paid a portion of what they earn a company, its to cover all the expenses that come with running a company. Being independent doesn't lower these costs in a lot of cases, so the only way to pay yourself more, without working harder, is to cut corners (not pay for office, supplies, insurance, etc.), work harder, or hire other people to bill out and take a small portion as passive income. 

Usually it takes up to three years for most people to discover this reality, that's why most businesses fail within three years. 

As for turning your interest in investing into a business, I don't see it as a good idea. Do you want to turn your investments into a company? You may for tax reasons, but investing isn't really full time work, nor should it be if you're looking for passive income. That defeats the purpose.

If your talking about investing for others, then your becoming a salesman more interested in making money off other people's money which will lead you into temptation to make the best commissions not the best investments.

Again, don't confuse investing with business, they aren't the same thing. To run a successful investment company, you need to do things that make the most money for the company...thats not always a good investment. I run companies to make money, I run investments to make money, I run them both in different ways. 

As for "doing what you love" all the time, it's not always true. When you run a business you often have to do things you don't like to do (accounting, cleaning the office, taxes, whatever). You also rarely get to "do what you love" exactly he way you initially thought you'd do it. Often you have to be creative and flexible in your thinking. You may have thought you'd run the "Cadillac version" but, due to market demands, ability, whatever, you are forced to run a "blue collar" sedan version. You still get to do what you want, just not in the exact way you expected to. A lot of people can't make that kind of adjustment, so they fail.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Two key points on starting your own business.

1) Most small businesses fail because of a lack of cash. Sufficient cash for advertising and expenses is crucial to success.

2) Establishing a business in a sector that isn't overcrowded. Long established companies already own the lucrative contracts with big employers and governments etc.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

It difficult and dangerous to compare your situation to those on line that you know nothing about. I come from a family of self employed and entrepreneurs. Being self employed means a lot of different things as others have said. I have a few examples to give you. 

My dad was a restaurant/motel owner. He also was an real estate investor He didn't do it because he loved it, he did it because as an immigrant with little education, a language barrier, and a family to support it was better than working for someone else forever at minimum wage. My dad also has a super strong work ethic, partnered with others complementary skill sets (someone who could speak english), and he has a street smarts about him. He worked long hours, and always planned for the business to be bad (we were very frugal). 

We thought about buying his business and turning it into a modern night club, as it was a great location. My dad told us that wasn't the life he wanted for us. It's hard work, the pay is up and down, and there is a lot of uncertainty, but he encouraged us to always go work for yourself. 

One of my siblings, he had an office job out university, and started his company. After a couple of failures, he did REALLY well. He sold his company to a giant company in the US in a top position. He then left, and started a few more companies and did the same. He did because of ambition and likes a challenge. Before going down this route, he and his wife had a conversation of what they were willing to do to make it. They agreed they would do everything they needed and be comittted that making the business work was more important than anything including starting a family. They had a plan, and his wife would be the stable one in an office job in the day, then help with the business at night. They each put close to 100 hours a week for about 6 years before they sold the company. They didn't buy a house, and put all they money, and time into the company. They never saw each other other than work for weeks at a time. They agreed if it didn't pay off by 35, they would switch routes to a more traditional and start a family. It was really stressfu, but for them it paid off. However, if you ask my sibling if he loves his work, he says 'he loves the lifestyle that it provides them, and he is really good at what he does. He is also a risk taker, and has always been one to say go hard or go home. He always has always had the confidence and the bravado to just know he will figure things out. He has said that if continued with a MBA, he would not have done as well because people who think too much about risk, let fear get in the way. 

My other sibling, also wanted to start out on his own, but didn't do it until he was much more established. He is very conservation and not a risk taker. He started a corporation in an area he knew a lot about with people who also knew a lot and he trusted. It was really stressful for him, and he had to along with his partners their own money. When there was a risk of cash flow, each partner had to put in a seven figure infusion of cash to keep the company afloat. his motto was you can get rich two ways, slow and steady or start your own business. Slow and steady, you won't have the ups and downs, but you also won't have the really big up side. 

For me, we have our own consulting firm. We are right in the middle in terms of risk views of my siblings. My spouse was working and getting billed put at 4times his salary. He would complain how much the company was making off of him. He had been consulting for almost 10 years complaining. I told him crap or get of the pot if he wants to be self employed. We discussed a strategy and developed a plan. His personality was and is one to not stay at a company very long, which is good for consulting. I tend to like the stability. He is not company loyal, I will be. We decided that I would be the stable career climber while he goes and tries to make a go at being self employed. We didn't have kids, or a house and decided to take a modified route of my first sibling. My spouse would go wherever he needed to to establish himself. The first three years of our marriage where quite blissful, we weren't in the same city at the same time for more than few days out of out of the year. Does my spouse love it, nope he is good at it. There have when months without work, but we had planned for it. 

For me, I do consulting part time. As said, I was to be the career builder. I happened to find a teaching contract when I was thinking about a career move, and negotiated it with my work to do both. At first it was just a couple of times a years, now more often. I have a lot experience, and usually get quite a few consulting offers. I keep my full time job though. I really enjoy what I do consulting, but it's because I know it's my choice. I had planned to completely self employed a few years ago, but the economy and our family situation changed. I have decided my next 'job' if I get laid off with be to be sel employeed. Again, not because I love it, but I am really google at it and have established myself. 


The interesting thing was when I ask my family about this for advice of should go self employed or not, my dad said absolutely, you can go bankrupt at two times before it really matters. I was surprised coming from my financially frugal dad. He explained, that he came to canada because it's a great country. Here, you will not starve to death or die if your business fails. There is always help to get you back on your feet. The impacts of a failed business is so much less than I. His home country. However, you have to get off you *** and do something.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

As a quicker summary, self employed to starting a company will require capital (even if it's for living costs), lots of hard work and perseverance, you needs to have the right balance between understanding risk but not letting fear get in the way, lots of subject matter knowledge. You need also have to have a balance of tactical (day to day), and longer terms. It's not easy and not everyone is cut out for it, so self awareness and insight are very important too. It helps if you love it, but not necessary, it's more important that you are good at it.

I personally would not start a business tha I love because I am pretty sure that the other things I don't love would taint it. 

The question that you need to ask is why do you want to be self employed. What benefit are you trying to achieve or what is it that you don't like about an employee position.


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## ChaChing (Sep 16, 2017)

Plugging Along said:


> The question that you need to ask is why do you want to be self employed. What benefit are you trying to achieve or what is it that you don't like about an employee position.


Hi PA, thanks for sharing stories from your family. The question above I have thought about before but not too in depth. Now that you've mentioned it, I'll try to elaborate.

The reasons are:

1. I hate supervision - especially from jerk supervisors/managers. I like working under conditions without the watchful eye etc. I would say most of my career I've had good bosses but I've had my share of bad ones as well. Just to be clear, I do understand that self employment also means trading in one boss for multiple bosses. So I understand that. 

2. Being at the mercy of one's decision - just last year, I was working at a contract position. The term of the contract was till Dec 2016 with no extension. The guy next up above me, he trained me as well when I joined, announced he was quitting to try day trading at home. To my surprise, not only did our manager, the top guy at our dept, not promote me, but he decided to post the job online. Fine. So I applied for the posting but I did not even get an interview. I was fortunate to have found a new job before the end of my contract. It really left a sour taste for me that I didn't even attend the Christmas party. 

3. The massive wealth perception - All of the world's super wealthy are entrepreneurs. So I wanted to see if being self employed really does allow one to earn significantly more than being an employee. Like my colleague said the other week "you won't be rich working for someone else (generally speaking)".

Now, I do understand that it's not for everyone. I still don't know if it's for me. I have spoke with more than a handful of people who actually went through this route and failed.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> I come from a family of self employed and entrepreneurs ... My dad was a restaurant/motel owner. He also was an real estate investor ...
> 
> The interesting thing was when I ask my family about this for advice of should go self employed or not, my dad said absolutely, you can go bankrupt at two times before it really matters. I was surprised coming from my financially frugal dad. He explained, that he came to canada because it's a great country. Here, you will not starve to death or die if your business fails. There is always help to get you back on your feet.




plugging your dad sounds like such an amazing person. What a combination of true grit, talent, creative independence yet at the same time a high degree of human connectivity & social justice.

we can see where you get it from, the acorn doesn't fall far from the tree.

i am so sorry to hear how your parents are getting frail now & your mum has had a serious medical setback. Hoping for the best for them & for your family. IIRC you have at least one, if not two or more, siblings in calgary? although you are the one with the primary responsibility. I remember this well, i was the one who looked after our mother.

.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

ChaChing said:


> Hey Mukhang - So here's the real reason for my post.


Thanks for the added information ChaChing.

I don't have a lot of sage advice to offer. Most of my working life has been related to practicing law. I have worked as a sole practitioner, for a law firm, for a private sector company and as a government employee. So some of my work would be considered self-employment. I have also been a freelance (self-employed) legal writer and researcher because I discovered a knack for it and other lawyers are willing to pay for that skill. Not all lawyers, despite the years of formal education, are really good writers. Nor do all have great research skills. To this day i have the pleasure of getting work from a few first rate trial lawyers. That is their forte. They are happy to assign to me some of what they see as the mundane research and writing. I used to do some trial work, but I was not destined to be one of the greats, able to charge thousands of dollars for a day at trial. But I found my little niche and I am content. 

You have echoed JAG's words that a paycheque is never an open sesame to the realm of the filthy rich. Overall, I accept that as true, although, as I have said, I have encountered a few people with industrial-sized paycheques who have done quite well. I have never been the recipient of such a paycheque nor have I been motivated to seek great wealth. I _have_ been motivated to seek considerable comfort. I arrived at the comfortable stage some time ago and I have arranged my affairs for that to continue. For me, that is sufficient. That is in part, I suppose, because I value my time. Those I have watched become really quite wealthy have generally done so by starting a business and working their butts off for an extended period to get the thing to fly. Some of those never stop working their butts off in order to keep the thing in orbit. Call me lazy, but I have never been willing to make the sacrifice of time usually required to accomplish what they have.

Some interesting perspectives have been laid out in this thread. Take from them what you will, and good luck. Above, I mentioned finding my "little niche". Looking back, maybe that's the only worthwhile thing I have said here. If you can find your own niche, you can do work you like, earn well, with sufficient to fund some investing for passive income and, at the same time, enjoy life outside of work. I have not noticed many tombstones inscribed with the epitaph "I wish I had spent more time at the office."


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Don't be a sucker. Get a government job, preferably federal. Working for yourself is an uphill pull in a cold rain.


 Well said then you can also work under the table on the side for close friends & relatives as a lot of the government workers do & keep more money per x amount of work then the business owners who work to collect money for the government.

Run your own business might not even make minimum wage & can lose your own money. Work for the government get paid for work you do not even have to do i.e., stat holidays . The government is becoming more anti work for yourself & hiring employees. You work hard get your business running profitably & who knows what the government will do to leach off you i.e., raise your taxes make you pay employees more for less work or what ever


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## ChaChing (Sep 16, 2017)

Mukhang pera said:


> Some interesting perspectives have been laid out in this thread. Take from them what you will, and good luck. Above, I mentioned finding my "little niche". Looking back, maybe that's the only worthwhile thing I have said here. If you can find your own niche, you can do work you like, earn well, with sufficient to fund some investing for passive income and, at the same time, enjoy life outside of work. I have not noticed many tombstones inscribed with the epitaph "I wish I had spent more time at the office."


I absolutely agree with that. Some people knew what their niche was already when they were in high school. I however still haven't yet found my niche. For now I'll just focus on my current path until I discover what my niche will be.


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## ChaChing (Sep 16, 2017)

lonewolf :) said:


> Well said then you can also work under the table on the side for close friends & relatives as a lot of the government workers do & keep more money per x amount of work then the business owners who work to collect money for the government.
> 
> Run your own business might not even make minimum wage & can lose your own money. Work for the government get paid for work you do not even have to do i.e., stat holidays . The government is becoming more anti work for yourself & hiring employees. You work hard get your business running profitably & who knows what the government will do to leach off you i.e., raise your taxes make you pay employees more for less work or what ever


Yeah I'm on the look out for something like that as well. But, most of the openings, at least in my province are contract positions, not permanent positions. I knew a few people who worked for the government on a contractual basis that finally turned permanent employee after 20 years of service. How ridiculous is that.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

ChaChing said:


> The reasons are:
> 
> 1. I hate supervision - especially from jerk supervisors/managers. I like working under conditions without the watchful eye etc. I would say most of my career I've had good bosses but I've had my share of bad ones as well. Just to be clear, I do understand that self employment also means trading in one boss for multiple bosses. So I understand that.
> 
> ...


Can you please be more specific on what you mean by self employed. Do you mean as a contractor/consultant on your own or running a business?

To your points.

1. You still have lots of bosses or customers. If you are a consultant, your client will supervise your work. If you are unhappy with your boss now, you still have the same choice to leave. The difference is a constraint is expected to leave a frequent jumps are not looked poorly. On the flip side of not having a boss, do you have the motivation and discipline to do what you need to do, to find business, etc. If you don't, you don't get paid. there is a misconception that there is total freedom when you work for yourself. Sometimes clients want me to work when I had other plans. There may be some negotiation but if I don't meet their needs, then they will find someone else, Unless you are really good, this is often a concern. 

2. True, you do get rid of the politics, and decisions like this. On the flip side, you make the decision, so if it goes wrong it's all on you. How is your decision making and problem solving skills. Can you remain unemotional and stick to business. 

3. Being self employed is not meaning you are an entrpenuer. Self emplyed just means you are setting your own pace. In consulting, yes you make more money, but you also assume more risk, get no benefits, job security, ei if you get laid off. If you are disciplined with your money, you can make more than if you are an employee for sure, but I assure you you don't get rich from consulting. You get comfortable. How are you with job instability and income fluctuations? 

If you are wanting to be rich, by my definition is high seven figures if not 8, then consulting is not the way to go, but starting a business. Then it's a lot more risk, and most likely over head. Many get rich because they leverage technology and people. Do you have the ability and capital to run a business. Now you bosses are your customer and staff. Most important here is your ability to weather bad times, hard work, getting paid nothing at first, problem solving, determination, and some luck. Ideas are a dime a dozen, it's execution that counts. You need to be able to do it all. There is such a high percentage of business failures for so many reason, it's high risk, high reward. Are you a risk taker?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> plugging your dad sounds like such an amazing person. What a combination of true grit, talent, creative independence yet at the same time a high degree of human connectivity & social justice.
> 
> we can see where you get it from, the acorn doesn't fall far from the tree.
> 
> ...


Thanks Humble. It's been a challenging time. I have another sibling here still. We are just do the best we can and try keep my dad healthy as he has been with my mom every day. We are just in transition right now, waiting to see how her recovery will go. There are so many unknowns, so we are hoping for best, Expecting the worst and acting on the known. My family is usually pragmatic, there have been many downs and some ups, so it is hard to stay focused. It hard to balance everything with my own kids and my aging parents. I look at this as an opportunity to teach my kids about taking care of the elderly.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Another thing to consider is do you have the proper insurance, do you know where to get it? What happens if you get sued? What happens if you get injured? All these are things employees never think about, as well as some business owners I've known until it was too late.

You also need to get over the question, "how long have you been in business?", until you can say at least 3 years, and the question always comes up in some fashion, you will have a hard time being taken seriously.

Pricing is also an issue. Do you know what to charge? Will your customers allow you to raise your rates? Are you trying to get into the market by undercutting your competition (not a good idea in the long run)? Are you overcharging yourself out of the market? Hourly workers who work slow get paid more, but fired...work faster and earn less. Charging by the project, how do you handle overruns?

Oh, and don't be surprised if you're expected to work weekends, evenings, and be on call at all hours (depending on your business).


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## ChaChing (Sep 16, 2017)

PA-I'm just considering independent contractor at the moment. Or at least that's what my uncle suggested I do. I mentioned in a previous message that I'm not looking to start a business empire. Just looking to make a decent living that's all.

I think I'm the disciplined type. I will be able to stick to a plan once I have a focus of what I need to do and where I need to be. I'm lucky in that I'm single plus the fact that I'm career driven. So I'm able to devote time and focus into something should I decide to do it.

I don't have any management experience but I'm very critical of people that I see who don't do squat in the workplace. This applies to both my current employer and previous employers. I see people being paid but they either don't do much in their position or they don't pull their weight. So I think I'll be able to be decisive when it comes to making certain decisions.

The things that I'm not comfortable with are instability and fluctuating income. I understand both of these points in that I've seen it with my uncle and others I know who are self employed. I know one needs to have a strong client base in addition to adding new clients in order to have an inflow of cash. I'm also aware of the no benefits and no eligibility for EI.


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## ChaChing (Sep 16, 2017)

Just a Guy said:


> Another thing to consider is do you have the proper insurance, do you know where to get it? What happens if you get sued? What happens if you get injured? All these are things employees never think about, as well as some business owners I've known until it was too late.
> 
> You also need to get over the question, "how long have you been in business?", until you can say at least 3 years, and the question always comes up in some fashion, you will have a hard time being taken seriously.
> 
> ...


JAG-Those are good points that you've mentioned. I'm aware of the insurance part and legal part from taking a business law course. I'm also aware of the "putting in long hours" part as well. But in terms of pricing structures, that's all foreign to me.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

ChaChing said:


> PA-I'm just considering independent contractor at the moment. Or at least that's what my uncle suggested I do. I mentioned in a previous message that I'm not looking to start a business empire. Just looking to make a decent living that's all.
> 
> I think I'm the disciplined type. I will be able to stick to a plan once I have a focus of what I need to do and where I need to be. I'm lucky in that I'm single plus the fact that I'm career driven. So I'm able to devote time and focus into something should I decide to do it.
> 
> ...


Sorry, i may have missed the part about you wanting to be an independent contractor. I actually know a fair amount about this, and my family examples aren't as relevant. Many start out through a consulting company, as it can be harder to get a contact if you are an unknown. The firm or agency will take a cut and you work through them. Often even if you like the company, you cannot cut out the agency and work for them directly for a while due to non compete clauses. 

Other things to consider:
Are you okay bouncing from company to company? Most companies will not hire a person for more than two years due to tax implications.
Are you good at saving money for the periods when you are not working? It is definately feast or famine in some areas.
The pay is between per hour, but you have to figure out what the right rate is, and that has to account for no benefits, ei, and higher risk. 
You won't get get rich working for yourself this way but can make a comfortable living. I make close to my spouse who was a contractor. You can climb the corpoarate ladder which will get you there but is slower, or contract with more instability. 
How would you react if you didn't work for 6 months, but made what you do now in the first 6 months? It definately takes a different mind set. 
It was really hard for my spouse to take vacation at first because he was always worried about not getting the next contract. It took years for us to find the right balance. 
Do you have a skill that companies want? What area of expertise do you have? Most companies that hire a consultant expect them to be experienced enough to hit the ground running. 
Can you sell yourself and network? 
Another consideration is that when you have been consulting for a long time, and if you ever go back as an employee, you will usually be one of the first to be layed off. Usually this is because coming back as an employee you will naturally demand a higher salary , and if the company needs to cut people, you will be the first to go because you have a higher salary with less time with the company. 

It really comes to risk vs reward. If you can handle the uncertainty, the go for it. Especially as my dad said what do you really have to lose. It's much harder when you are really established, because you have a house, family kids, and a high slaty you will lose of you fail.


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## ChaChing (Sep 16, 2017)

Plugging Along said:


> Sorry, i may have missed the part about you wanting to be an independent contractor. I actually know a fair amount about this, and my family examples aren't as relevant. Many start out through a consulting company, as it can be harder to get a contact if you are an unknown. The firm or agency will take a cut and you work through them. Often even if you like the company, you cannot cut out the agency and work for them directly for a while due to non compete clauses.


PA-Since you're an expert in the area I would like to know how the consultant route compares with the other model which is getting rid of the agency altogether and advertise yourself straight to your clients. You see it all the time, accoutants/bookkeepers, plumbers, electricians, landscapers, freelance web designers, tutors, they all advertise on free online sites/yellow pages/newspapers. Is that route less profitable? For one, it does get rid of the agency (middleman). But I can see that maybe the clientele aren't as big/established as the ones from the agencies since you're on your own. 

Right now, I'm still in the early stages of my 2nd career. My field, or the work that I do is needed by organizations of all sizes. However, I'm still gaining experience and there's ways to go before I become an expert. 

Though I have "nothing to loose" since I'm not established or have any dependents, the down side is that I'm not partnered up and there's only one source of income. 

I'm quite bothered by the thought of fluctuating incomes and overall instability.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I am definately no expert as there are many models out there. Perhaps it would be easier to respond if you provide which area or industry you are considering being self employed in. 

All the examples you mentioned are more smaller businesses, and not consulting as I have more experience in. You are essentially providing a service. If you go through an agency, essentially they are helping you find clients, if you advertise yourself, you cut them out, but often customers expect a lesser price. 

As a tutor, I can make some where between $50 to 65 hour, but I may only have a few customers at first, maybe a few hours a week until I establish myself and build a reputation, that's if I do my own advertising. If I go through a company and sub conttprqct, the hourly rate I receive is somewhere between $25 to $40 hour. I will have a little more business, and don't have to worry about advertising. People base their buying decision on the company. If I decide to teach as a sub contractor for a company, I will receive a rate of somewhere between $90 to $110 an hour teaching a whole class room. They market, find the students, do all the administration, provide the material, etc. If I decide to deliver directly, I have to create the materials, find the client, do all the administration, find the room, etc. I charge $2500+ A day depending on how much customization I provide. That sounds great, but if there a lot custom work and administration, can take me up to 80 hours, so I have to charge more for that too, which then starts to price me out. 

My personal preference is teaching as a sub contract. Why, I maximize my hourly rate because I teaching larger groups. I minimize administration. It is the teaching I enjoy, not the admin, or content development. This is where businesses fail, someone's thinks they are a great cook, so they open a restaurant. The don't know a thing about supply chain, marketing or any other business aspect and spend all their time learning things that don't bring enjoyment. 

How good are you at marketing? Are you comfortable finding your own customers? In terms of the Unknown, not just money, how are you in handling things and creative problem solving when your business throws you a curve ball. As I said, if you provide an area you are considering it will be more helpful.


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## ChaChing (Sep 16, 2017)

PA-I'm thinking along the lines of managing daily finance operations for companies. The only "agency" I know of/heard most of are only temp agencies. Which is something I don't want.

I can see why being a sub contractor might be more attractive than striking it out on your own. 

I'm no jack-of-all trades type of guy. The only form of marketing I know is just posting an online ad and that's it. There's a small public practice just a few blocks down from where I live, the guy just posted an ad to hire more staff because he's experiencing quick growth for his small business. To be honest, I've never seen any form of advertising either online or from free daily papers for his firm but he's able to get clients. Maybe word of mouth, I dunno. But he seems to be doing quite well even without advertising.

I see your point about the cook who opens his/her own restaurant. But, let's think a little deeper. If every business owner had to have everything figured out before they even start, then we wouldn't have a lot of establishments out there. I believe, even though I haven't gone through it yet, you learn as you go along. I'm actually drawing this conclusion from investing. If someone wanted to participate in the markets, but at the same time they wanted to enter the market at "just the right time", when will that actually be? It could be forever. Sometimes people just have to go and do it and learn as they go.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

The problem with that philosophy is that some people simply can't adapt fast enough, or they can't because of their starting point. If we go back to the good cook scenario, opening a restaurant isn't as simple as renting a space and cooking. You need to know how much food to order, how to get health permits, licenses, how to decorate, how to clean to commercial standards, how to portion, how to tell people you exist, how to get people to try you etc.

It's not as simple as "if you build it, they will come". That's one of the reasons many businesses fail so quickly, and restaurants even more so.

Notice, I didn't get into the on-restaurant aspects of owning a business like negotiating a proper rent, accounting, taxes, bookkeeping, human resources, hiring, management, etc. Those are things you can learn as you go along.

As for investing, it's true you can't time the market but, if you buy at the peak, you can also be waiting a very long time to ever show any profits. This is one reason I prefer real estate. It's not governed by one price (unlike stocks). You can always find someone who needs to sell and is willing to take less than market. They may not be common, but there is at least a chance to find them. Of course, if you pay any amount just to get into the market, then you'll probably wind up losing money. 

The difference between a successful businessman or investor and an unsuccessful one is the mental discipline to treat things as a business. This means you have to answer the question "how will this make me money". If it can't, then you have to find a way to make it make you money. If you aren't able to do that, then you'll fail.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

ChaChing said:


> PA-I'm thinking along the lines of managing daily finance operations for companies. The only "agency" I know of/heard most of are only temp agencies. Which is something I don't want.
> 
> I can see why being a sub contractor might be more attractive than striking it out on your own.
> 
> ...


JAG is bang on. It's the big things you need to figure out. Who are your customers? How do you let know? what do you need to start? Are there any regulations? Etc. Look up a 'business model canvas' that's a good start. You are right business owners don't have it figured out, but that's why there are so many failures. 

Marketing isn't just advertising. It's about thinking who your customers are going to be and how do you let them know you are around and that they need you. Large companies aren't good no to pick you off of face book. When you go into business for yourself, you are always selling. Most people have up to 6 million dollar ideas in their lifetime, but it is the execution that makes the money


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## ChaChing (Sep 16, 2017)

Just a Guy said:


> The problem with that philosophy is that some people simply can't adapt fast enough, or they can't because of their starting point. If we go back to the good cook scenario, opening a restaurant isn't as simple as renting a space and cooking. You need to know how much food to order, how to get health permits, licenses, how to decorate, how to clean to commercial standards, how to portion, how to tell people you exist, how to get people to try you etc.
> 
> It's not as simple as "if you build it, they will come". That's one of the reasons many businesses fail so quickly, and restaurants even more so.
> 
> ...


JAG-thanks for the explanation. Well good thing the field that I'm considering doesn't require inventory, rent space etc.

Since I'm no expert in RE investing, equities appeal to me because of the simple click of a button. For RE, when you put something up, it might not sell the same day, and there so much costs involved: lawyers, realtor commission, title transfer tax etc. But I have read somewhere that you buy RE wholesale or something? Anyways I've still a got a lot learning to do in that area.


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## ChaChing (Sep 16, 2017)

Plugging Along said:


> JAG is bang on. It's the big things you need to figure out. Who are your customers? How do you let know? what do you need to start? Are there any regulations? Etc. Look up a 'business model canvas' that's a good start. You are right business owners don't have it figured out, but that's why there are so many failures.
> 
> Marketing isn't just advertising. It's about thinking who your customers are going to be and how do you let them know you are around and that they need you. Large companies aren't good no to pick you off of face book. When you go into business for yourself, you are always selling. Most people have up to 6 million dollar ideas in their lifetime, but it is the execution that makes the money


PA-So at this time, I'm not looking to make any moves yet. I just started the thread hoping to read experiences of others on how they started their self employment journey. I thank you for sharing stories from you and your family. Also, I don't know if I will be staying in my current field in the future. There are other fields that interest me as well. There might also be the threat of automation in my field which might force me out of a job, should that occcur. 

I just wanna share with you something about a guy that I used to work for. This guy immigrated to Canada from Europe in his early 20's. His whole family's been in the painting business. Now, his daughters are also working in the family business. One day I remember his eldest daughter said that her dad never even had a business plan when he started the business after he arrived in Canada. He's been in business for over 30 years now. Maybe he's the odd ball example? I don't know much of the details but I just don't know how he's been able to operate for so long when he didn't have a defined plan/vision at the beginning. Perhaps there are some exceptions I guess.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

There are always exceptions to the rules. The question you have to ask are you planning your success based on the chance of being an exception to the rule, or maybe are you going to do what is required so that you don't need to count on luck?

I'm not saying you can't proceed until you've dotted every I and crossed every T, there is middle ground you can aim for.

The odds of being successful in business are very low because too many people just jump in the deep end. Why not try writing out a business plan. You don't really need one to be successful, I started my first company without one, but the exercise has the benefits of making you actually think about what's going to be involved in running your company.

I've written several business plans over the years, more as a mental exercise than a gospel, though the banks really like them if you ever need a loan. I've been running companies so long, it's fairly easy for me to do now. It can really help identify where you need to do some work, or areas where you need to expand your knowledge. Of course, you should run it past someone who knows something about running a similar business (or any business) for some feedback. Chances are, you can't see what you need to work on because you don't even know what you don't know.

Just to let you know, every time I make a decision involving money (investing, in my company, or even in regular life) I run through a mini business plan in my head (what does it cost, can I afford it, where does the money come from, what are the benefits, what are the drawbacks, what are the unintended consequences, market conditions, future outlook, etc.). It keeps me from making mistakes based on impulses.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

I work for an employer full-time and also have a side business which I started about 7-8 years ago. My side-business is in a similar field as my regular job so its clear that I have a passion for both. My main reason for starting the business was not for huge financial gains. It was more of a security blanket for the future. It was easy for me because I had a partner and we support each other. Its also not a storefront type of business so overhead is minimal. We could launch ourselves full-time in the business and will be successful - but we are not ready yet to let go of our employee stability. In fact, I'm just as good as closing the business because my regular job is going well.

As for wealth, I'll leave you with a quick proverb, "It's not how much you make. It's how much you save".

So no matter what career you choose to do, make sure you have a passion for it and you give it your 100%. Money is just an object - that you make $50k or you make $500k, it doesn't change anything except the manner that you generate it.


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## ChaChing (Sep 16, 2017)

Mortgage u/w said:


> I work for an employer full-time and also have a side business which I started about 7-8 years ago. My side-business is in a similar field as my regular job so its clear that I have a passion for both. My main reason for starting the business was not for huge financial gains. It was more of a security blanket for the future. It was easy for me because I had a partner and we support each other. Its also not a storefront type of business so overhead is minimal. We could launch ourselves full-time in the business and will be successful - but we are not ready yet to let go of our employee stability. In fact, I'm just as good as closing the business because my regular job is going well.
> 
> As for wealth, I'll leave you with a quick proverb, "It's not how much you make. It's how much you save".
> 
> So no matter what career you choose to do, make sure you have a passion for it and you give it your 100%. Money is just an object - that you make $50k or you make $500k, it doesn't change anything except the manner that you generate it.


MUW-thanks for sharing your situation. The side hustle thing is something that I'd consider as well. But, of course, I have to become an expert in my current field before I can really launch something on the side just like how you're doing it. 

Say, are you really a u/w? I read up on this career and they say that u/w do a lot of investigative/detective work to validate financial information of mortgage applicants etc. Are there independent u/w like how there are independent mortgage brokers? How does someone get into the field?


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## boingboing (Jul 5, 2017)

Not sure if this has been said already but when self-employed definitely look into PHSPs for medical expenses rather than using the medical tax credit. It will save alot more and covers things like braces and other comestic surgeries.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

'I just wanna share with you something about a guy that I used to work for. This guy immigrated to Canada from Europe in his early 20's. His whole family's been in the painting business. Now, his daughters are also working in the family business. One day I remember his eldest daughter said that her dad never even had a business plan when he started the business after he arrived in Canada. He's been in business for over 30 years now. Maybe he's the odd ball example? I don't know much of the details but I just don't know how he's been able to operate for so long when he didn't have a defined plan/vision at the beginning. Perhaps there are some exceptions I guess.'

This is actually the norm for most businesses. The business plan/ vision is in the owners head. Not many one person shops start with a formal written business plan. True of most trades, accountants, lawyers. Even small restaurants, coffee shops.

A business person looking to expand, start a second business etc and looking for financing may be asked to do a business 
That is often when you will first see any type of plan.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

ChaChing said:


> MUW-thanks for sharing your situation. The side hustle thing is something that I'd consider as well. But, of course, I have to become an expert in my current field before I can really launch something on the side just like how you're doing it.
> 
> Say, are you really a u/w? I read up on this career and they say that u/w do a lot of investigative/detective work to validate financial information of mortgage applicants etc. Are there independent u/w like how there are independent mortgage brokers? How does someone get into the field?


I actually manage an u/w dept. Its mostly risk assessment that an u/w does. The documentation validation process can be viewed as 'investigation' as you mentioned, but all part of the assessment process. 

There are no independent u/w. My side business is in the real estate field but not as an u/w. 

To get in the field, you need to get your feet wet and start at the bottom. There are various beginner positions in an underwriting center that can expose you to the field. Becoming an underwriter requires experience and natural skills. You need to have a broad knowledge and good understanding of everything that is financial including real estate knowledge.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Or you could just get the book "one million ways to say 'No!'" And become an excellent mortgage u/w. P-)


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

twa2w said:


> 'I just wanna share with you something about a guy that I used to work for. This guy immigrated to Canada from Europe in his early 20's. His whole family's been in the painting business. Now, his daughters are also working in the family business. One day I remember his eldest daughter said that her dad never even had a business plan when he started the business after he arrived in Canada. He's been in business for over 30 years now. Maybe he's the odd ball example? I don't know much of the details but I just don't know how he's been able to operate for so long when he didn't have a defined plan/vision at the beginning. Perhaps there are some exceptions I guess.'
> 
> This is actually the norm for most businesses. The business plan/ vision is in the owners head. Not many one person shops start with a formal written business plan. True of most trades, accountants, lawyers. Even small restaurants, coffee shops.
> 
> ...


I was sure someone posted this before on this thread, and I thought about responding Deja vu. 

There are tones of examples of this. In fact they say immigrant and moms are most the largest sector of successful entreprenuers. The difference is many of these people have no choice but to succeed. Starting their own business is the way to go because they are having more challenges finding regular employement. My parents were this. They use whatever skills they have and try and make money from it, then for some it grows into a business. 

For many of us that already have gainful employment, it's much harder to take that risk oak and leap. Yah was what my dad said is no to be afraid to go for it, and my sibling when he said when you are more educated, especially an MBA, you learn too much about risks. 

Hence why I think it's a balance. I find many don't have the 'gumpta' to just jump on nor do they have the incentive (no other choice other than family starving' so then it takes some time really evaluating if you are cut out to be self employed. If one has to spend that much time analyzing, then probably not.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> Or you could just get the book "one million ways to say 'No!'" And become an excellent mortgage u/w. P-)


you don't need a book to say 'No' - just need to be stubborn for that.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Mortgage u/w said:


> you don't need a book to say 'No' - just need to be stubborn for that.


Some u/w like to mix things up a bit.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

One lender I worked in automotive finance with many years ago had a policy of never saying no.( well almost).
Yep, the client is approved but needs 50% down payment and pymts over max 24 months. 
Surprising how often the clients actually managed to meet the terms.
I did a lot of repos on that job :-(


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

twa2w said:


> One lender I worked in automotive finance with many years ago had a policy of never saying no.( well almost).
> Yep, the client is approved but needs 50% down payment and pymts over max 24 months.
> Surprising how often the clients actually managed to meet the terms.
> I did a lot of repos on that job :-(


Yeah, auto finance underwriters are just "yes men"...the system basically spits out the answer and the u/w repeats it. Same thing with retail and credit card approvals - there's no analysis there.


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## Koogie (Dec 15, 2014)

We had a great vendor in China once. His email signature line said:

"""The answer is yes. Now what is the question?"""


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Here's my own story about starting my own business. I started with a passion/hobby when I was 16 (writing a specific kind of computer software). I sold my product, just very small amounts of sales at first while in high school. The product was unique enough that it got attention, and I got some free marketing due to magazine articles and news stories that mentioned me. _I was very lucky with timing_. My product became very good right around 1998-2000 just as computers and the internet really started taking off. I was an early adopter of online sales (e-commerce) which was a huge advantage, and due to the tech bubble, people were throwing around lots of money. This was a new field and I was one of the first people doing it. This became a business I could keep doing while in university. While living at home with my parents, I was able to attend university and pay my way through school entirely with the self employment income.

I was in university (undergrad then postgrad) and kept running the business on the side. My annual income was 20K-30K with a brief burst to 50K, very substantial for a grad student, plus the benefit of the tax expenses as per T2125. These were really good times and this was more than enough income for a single guy. I'd say it was an average 30K/year gross income and consistently profitable every year for 10 years.

Due to my small business income, I never took any student debt and started adult life with zero debt. My income may not have been high, but this was a massive advantage. I was able to move out of my parent's home and had my own place for the latter part of these years.

When 2008 came, my business income crashed. I discontinued the business in 2009. It goes to show that the broad economy and business cycles are very important and it's hard to escape from them. At this point I looked at my options, hunted for a job, and went into a traditional company, eventually finding a much higher income than I made before via self employment.

I probably could have survived 2008 if I kept a larger cash/short term bond cushion, such as 2 years living expenses in HISA + XSB. Lesson learned.

I really enjoyed being self employed. The freedom was incredible. Then again, my income was low. _I did not get rich by running a small business._

My current net worth is roughly attributable to: 20% inheritance, 30% self employment, 50% regular employment. This is a bit of an unfair comparison since I was young and only was self employed part time, but still, it appears that regular employment is what's really making my net worth grow. I wonder what might happen if I return to self employment as a full time thing.


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## ChaChing (Sep 16, 2017)

Mortgage u/w said:


> I actually manage an u/w dept. Its mostly risk assessment that an u/w does. The documentation validation process can be viewed as 'investigation' as you mentioned, but all part of the assessment process.
> 
> There are no independent u/w. My side business is in the real estate field but not as an u/w.
> 
> To get in the field, you need to get your feet wet and start at the bottom. There are various beginner positions in an underwriting center that can expose you to the field. Becoming an underwriter requires experience and natural skills. You need to have a broad knowledge and good understanding of everything that is financial including real estate knowledge.


I somehow wished I had gone into any aspect of the real estate industry when I decided to embark on a career change. What you have described sounds interesting to me.


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## ChaChing (Sep 16, 2017)

Plugging Along said:


> I was sure someone posted this before on this thread, and I thought about responding Deja vu.
> 
> There are tones of examples of this. In fact they say immigrant and moms are most the largest sector of successful entreprenuers. The difference is many of these people have no choice but to succeed. Starting their own business is the way to go because they are having more challenges finding regular employement. My parents were this. They use whatever skills they have and try and make money from it, then for some it grows into a business.
> 
> ...


That's an interesting perspective. I agree with your comment of finding a "balance". I think with the web nowadays, there's so much info online, that it might deter some to actually go for it. Like you mentioned, right now, I don't have that "incentive" to do it just yet. I have no dependents. I just need to feed myself. I guess ignorance can be bliss for some and not to others. When I want to research something, I go online and you read about all these articles about the "risks" of that topic. After someone goes through a few articles, it could really persuade them to scrap the idea altogether.


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## ChaChing (Sep 16, 2017)

james4beach said:


> Here's my own story about starting my own business. I started with a passion/hobby when I was 16 (writing a specific kind of computer software). I sold my product, just very small amounts of sales at first while in high school. The product was unique enough that it got attention, and I got some free marketing due to magazine articles and news stories that mentioned me. _I was very lucky with timing_. My product became very good right around 1998-2000 just as computers and the internet really started taking off. I was an early adopter of online sales (e-commerce) which was a huge advantage, and due to the tech bubble, people were throwing around lots of money. This was a new field and I was one of the first people doing it. This became a business I could keep doing while in university. While living at home with my parents, I was able to attend university and pay my way through school entirely with the self employment income.
> 
> I was in university (undergrad then postgrad) and kept running the business on the side. My annual income was 20K-30K with a brief burst to 50K, very substantial for a grad student, plus the benefit of the tax expenses as per T2125. These were really good times and this was more than enough income for a single guy. I'd say it was an average 30K/year gross income and consistently profitable every year for 10 years.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your story. I think it's great what you were able to accomplish during your time as a student. I can't say the same for myself. 
I'd like to know how you went about advertising for your product and finding your target customer base.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ChaChing said:


> I'd like to know how you went about advertising for your product and finding your target customer base.


In those days, there were much fewer people on the internet. I had a web site with information about my product, which was in a specialized area of software. Because what I offered was unique, people easily found my product right away when they did a search for what they wanted. Anyone in the world could literally type in a few keywords describing their problem, and ended up at my web page. (You can't do this today). The customers mostly found me; I never spent a penny on advertising.

So the target market was actually pretty narrowly focused, and I easily got their attention. My customer base grew organically and I had individual relationships with many of them. These were people I emailed back and forth with, took their suggestions, and even tailored my product specifically to their needs. There were probably 50 or 100 people that I routinely communicated with. They were just interested in my niche product, but there was a strong human element too.

I used to bike to university to catch my morning classes. In the half hour of time I could make before I had to bike out, I'd check my emails, answer questions I received, help resolve technical misunderstandings, and chat with customers and potential customers. Then I'd head out to class. In the evening I would keep doing the same, then of course work on improving my software product, and maintaining my web site.

Part of this was that the internet was more personal back then, just fewer people, and more enthusiasts.

As I developed relationships, some of the people were thrilled with my product so they helped promote me. They used word of mouth, or someone who bought my software at home recommended it at work, and their business purchased more (that could be 100x the profit right there just from one happy customer). Some of the customers were writers and journalists, though I didn't know it at the time. This is how I ended up with magazine/news articles which ultimately reached huge numbers of people. The people who made that happen were, themselves, happy customers and people who I had good personal rapports with. I treated them the same way as ANY other customer.

In fact come to think of it, some of those journalists weren't even paying customers. They just used my free software (which was a huge part of my business). I offered both free, and not-free software at my web site. A significant part of my time and energy was communicating and supporting people who used the free software and who never paid me anything.

Because the niche area was in business productivity/travel, my customer base were generally older and wealthier. Lots of engineers, IT professionals, and people in government. And as technical experts themselves, they were in positions to recommend my software for use in their business.

That's something to consider, because for example if you're writing a gaming app that's mainly used by 15 year olds, these people don't have any money, nor do they have any positions of power. I didn't sell my stuff to kids. My customer base were the kind of people who could comfortably spent $40 on something that's worth it, and whose businesses could comfortably spend a few hundred $ without blinking an eye.


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## againcome (Oct 17, 2017)

ChaChing said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Just looking to see if anyone would like to share their experience (the good, the bad) on their journey to self employment. As with any topic, there are those who are for the idea and there are those who are against. Some say it’s the only way to success and others say that it’s really not as easy as one may think. I recall talking to a college instructor, who used to run her own company, that decided to become an employee again just because the benefits are better. And then there’s the hybrid type – those who work a regular 9-5 but also do consulting/side gigs during their free time in their area of expertise.
> 
> Also, for those who are already self employed, are you working in a field which you are really passionate about (aka your calling)? I’m still in the early stages of my 2nd career. My first career path didn’t work out so well so I went to upgrade my skills in another field. I still have a long way to go in terms of gaining experience to be an expert in my new field but even then I don’t know if I see myself being in this field for the rest of my life. One area that I’m most passionate about is learning about investing and passive income sources. But I’m not looking to be a CFP or CFA of any sort.


It depends on which area you are good at working.


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## againcome (Oct 17, 2017)

james4beach said:


> Here's my own story about starting my own business. I started with a passion/hobby when I was 16 (writing a specific kind of computer software). I sold my product, just very small amounts of sales at first while in high school. The product was unique enough that it got attention, and I got some free marketing due to magazine articles and news stories that mentioned me. _I was very lucky with timing_. My product became very good right around 1998-2000 just as computers and the internet really started taking off. I was an early adopter of online sales (e-commerce) which was a huge advantage, and due to the tech bubble, people were throwing around lots of money. This was a new field and I was one of the first people doing it. This became a business I could keep doing while in university. While living at home with my parents, I was able to attend university and pay my way through school entirely with the self employment income.
> 
> I was in university (undergrad then postgrad) and kept running the business on the side. My annual income was 20K-30K with a brief burst to 50K, very substantial for a grad student, plus the benefit of the tax expenses as per T2125. These were really good times and this was more than enough income for a single guy. I'd say it was an average 30K/year gross income and consistently profitable every year for 10 years.
> 
> ...


It is great to hear you.


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## againcome (Oct 17, 2017)

Mortgage u/w said:


> I work for an employer full-time and also have a side business which I started about 7-8 years ago. My side-business is in a similar field as my regular job so its clear that I have a passion for both. My main reason for starting the business was not for huge financial gains. It was more of a security blanket for the future. It was easy for me because I had a partner and we support each other. Its also not a storefront type of business so overhead is minimal. We could launch ourselves full-time in the business and will be successful - but we are not ready yet to let go of our employee stability. In fact, I'm just as good as closing the business because my regular job is going well.
> 
> As for wealth, I'll leave you with a quick proverb, "It's not how much you make. It's how much you save".
> 
> So no matter what career you choose to do, make sure you have a passion for it and you give it your 100%. Money is just an object - that you make $50k or you make $500k, it doesn't change anything except the manner that you generate it.


Self employment is in fact a mode of security blanket. I liked it.


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## againcome (Oct 17, 2017)

Just a Guy said:


> The problem with that philosophy is that some people simply can't adapt fast enough, or they can't because of their starting point. If we go back to the good cook scenario, opening a restaurant isn't as simple as renting a space and cooking. You need to know how much food to order, how to get health permits, licenses, how to decorate, how to clean to commercial standards, how to portion, how to tell people you exist, how to get people to try you etc.
> 
> It's not as simple as "if you build it, they will come". That's one of the reasons many businesses fail so quickly, and restaurants even more so.
> 
> ...


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