# Donald Sterling and The LA Clippers



## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I thought this would have been a hot topic here. The story of Donald Sterling himself and what he did and has done and the penalties that followed although deserved was very shocking. 

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014...tly-what-he-deserved-for-unapologetic-racism/

The response of the Sponsors.

http://www.businessweek.com/article...ng-and-the-lost-l-dot-a-dot-clippers-sponsors

He really did a number on his brand and will be forced to sell the team. 

Maybe on a positive note tax payers may not be so ready to vote to pay for buildings and facilities that billionaire owners can afford. The public enslaves themselves with higher taxes to pay someone rich and rich players who don't need the money.

Sorry I thought I put this under general discussion but it is still a money story as well.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Not sure why you'd expect it to be a hot topic. Can't imagine too many people coming to his defense.

He has to be one of the contenders for "Most Effective Self-destruction 2014"


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

The racism and the reaction to it was remarkable. The story was huge over the last few days.


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## MRT (Apr 8, 2013)

Good riddance!

it is rather shameful that the the league did not act until now in response to his myriad past transgressions. Sterling's attitudes and actions harken back to some rather dark days in America's history and whose effects are clearly still experienced today.

It has been good to witness the civics lesson that countless ignorant critics have been receiving concerning the difference between constitutionally protected speech and the fictional 'unlimited right to say whatever you want, without consequence'.

I wonder if it is especially gutting for Sterling to hear that Magic Johnson, Oprah Winfrey, and Floyd Mayweather Jr. are amongst those who have publicly stated their interest in being a part of the next ownership group.

From a financial perspective, I think there is an enormous opportunity unfolding for the right ownership group to step in and use Sterling's flame-out to its benefit (as potentially unsavoury as that might sound), making the acquisition even more lucrative than it would have been had Sterling merely chosen to sell the team for some normal reason, amidst no controversy. Think of the angles that could be worked with hiring, sponsors, community groups, etc.

I predict the billion dollar threshold being talked about will be SHATTERED. Never mind that the woeful small-market Bucks and Kings each fetched half a billion plus. I genuinely believe that the circumstances surrounding the sale will have a significant positive impact on the eventual sale price given the reasoning above, and because of the greater interest generated in buying the team, particularly amongst those who might not normally exhibited interest. The media has also pointed out that the Clippers TV deal is up soon too, opening the doors for a monstrous new contract under the right circumstances.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

That was an A1 comment MRT. Sterling coming out and saying it, will really be a great day in the end for the Clippers. You get rid of a well known idiot and you can now sell to what could be some great potential owners and a great TV deal as well.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I can't see how it really matters...the guy is 82 years old...has more money than he can spend...probably never attends any games anyway...and a whole lot of "professional athletes" break the law daily, probably say racist stuff on the field/court and no one seems to blink an eye.

The only people who benefit are the media with ratings, the heirs who get the money, the lawyers who'll fight about everything and the new ownership group.

We haven't cured racism, or even the game...we'll continue to pay wife beater, dog fighters, and other criminals obscene amounts of money and tell our kids to look up to theses people as "role models"...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I am not sure exactly how the league can "force" a sale........when the owner sets the price he will accept.

If he wants to get out....he can accept a reasonable offer, but if he wants to be intransigent....he can demand 3 Billion dollars for the team.

The team brand has suffered, but for him personally..........there may be great gains for the league wanting him out so badly.

The team will probably be sold........but I think for more money than people think.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

If he would say not to bring Russians to the games, he would be American hero ))

but seriously, it;s not nice to make such comments, but this conversation was recorded in his private house , without his permission.... so imo just overreaction


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Donald Sterling's ex-wife also has the right to exercise the option to take over the team. \

It remains to be seen, if the NBA owners can take away her right, as she has done nothing wrong.

I imagine the lawyers involved will be looking for a nice payday................


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

the guy was exercising his first amendment rights to be a racist *******

his comments were intended to be private and he's getting hung out by the balls for expressing racist ideas that are alive and well throughout the league from players black and white and among the owners

and now magic johnson and oprah and a bunch of other wealthy celebrities want to buy the team because the guy privately expressed a racist opinion to the effect of "don't bring blacks to the game" to his girlfriend but said absolutely nothing racist in a business context to anyone ?

and he gets his balls in knot for this ?

this has nothing to do with his comments and everything to do with the fact that he's an ***@@le of long standing 

the answer to racist speech is more speech ... the answer is to talk back which is happening big time ... good

but this is a witch hunt over nothing that doesn't happen every day throughout major league sports

these were private comments however racist and anti-social they were

this is a lynching and an asset grab over nothing ... his comments were privately expressed


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

I'd never heard of this guy before, (and basketball bores the hell out of me), but it seems that 'racism', (real and imagined), has become the new witchcraft, engendering an entire industry of 'witch hunters', with the connotation that it's the worst conceivable abomination, (if it appears to be going in one direction.......going the other way, not so much).

Forget mass murderers, terrorists, etc, "Burn the_ "Racist"_!


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

For some reason this reminds me of the don imus debacle.
Words hurt,i understand that,but it wasn't directed at anyone(it was the entire race,he never said magic/press says that is who?)but nobody was maimed,physically hurt,killed,ect
In the grand scheme of things(M.O)is it that evil,what would of happened i wonder if he said don't bring white people,jewish,little people.big people(obese)red haired people,latino,italians,gay ect ect
goes to show you how your life can be altered(high profile people)with a slip of the mouth,i also don't understand the girlfriend?was she tapping him i gather to destroy him
It was wrong what he said but i can think of about thousands incidents that are far worse-nobody's life was altered but having said that what choice did the nba have.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

If it were just these comments then I would say the punishment certainly doesn't fit the crime and maybe it still doesn't. The problem with this guy is he has been doing this for a long time. He was fined for not wanting to rent out properties to people of color and families and so on and was fined twice in 2003 and 2006.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/30/donald-sterling-housing-discrimination_n_5241217.html

The problem in basketball is his bread and butter comes from black people in the form of players and fans. 

Like Nemo2 I have never heard of this guy and didn't care much about basketball either but the story was so big it caught my attention. I have to also admit that it does seem extreme for private comments to hit such a nerve. The clippers and other teams in protest turned their jerseys inside out covering their logo's before games while warming up. These players and people condemning these actions in this way had better hold to these standards and refrain from making similar racist comments now that they have set the bar on it.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

fatcat said:


> this is a lynching


Perhaps a poor choice of words, given the subject. A lynching is where an individual is brutally murdered by a mob. The worst that has happened to him is that many people have expressed their right to not associate with an odious human being.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Maybe he will sell the team for 2 Billion and use the money to start a new international league, which would draw interest from around the world.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Maybe they'll go after Mark Cuban next...anyone who watches shark tank knows how he exploits entrepreneurs...


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Nemo2 said:


> (and basketball bores the hell out of me)...


I thought I was the only one. 

Had never heard of this person either, but how come he did not make similar news & noise for his 'real crimes' as noted on post #13? Would this thread exist if such had been the news of the week? 

Someone quoted Oprah here; I have another quote:* “As long as people can be judged by the color of their skin, the problem is not solved. There are still generations of people, older people, who were born and bred and marinated in it – in that prejudice and racism – and they just have to die.”* - Picture all those [just in the US], who would not have been able to get away with having made such a comment, even when it's accurate enough.

There are plenty of young[er] ones as well, marinating in hatred & racism, which ofc is sickening, no matter who it is. As well, I am pretty sure many of the rich & famous, of all backgrounds, have had their share of private racist rants [including perhaps Ms. O. herself]. 

If an octogenarian bigot is fined $2.5m for having privately responded to his mistress [of black/latino background], not to attend the games/nor take pics. with black people, after [apparently] she first made the comment to him: 'people call you and tell you that I have black people on my Instagram. And it bothers you,' [was this just innocent recorded chat?], then what should the fine be for the person who recorded the conversation? Who's committed the real crime here? Does the 'code of conduct' rules extend to one's home?

It's big news because people love such stories. Explain why there are so many e-type shows in Canadian US versions for the gossip starved, needing at least a daily dosage of shows like: the social/the talk/entertainment tonight/OMG/TMZ, etc., etc., that offer nothing more than celebrity gossip. Even Rob Ford is a top story in US news today. :rolleyes2:


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

dogcom said:


> If it were just these comments then I would say the punishment certainly doesn't fit the crime and maybe it still doesn't. The problem with this guy is he has been doing this for a long time. He was fined for not wanting to rent out properties to people of color and families and so on and was fined twice in 2003 and 2006.


the guy has a long record of discrimination and apparently behaves like a first-class schmuck (i hope i didn't offend any jewish people by my use of an old yiddish word for the foreskin) but that is no reason to *ban him for life* from the nba for comments made privately

dog, do you seriously think that nba and nfl and mlb owners, the vast majority of whom are white men don't make similar comments and hold similar views privately ?

i am not saying sterling shouldn't have been taken to task for what he said, people should talk back, and they did, big time ... people could stop going to the games or black players could say "i won't play for the clippers" ... he reaps the whirlwind and pays the price

but what has happened is the severe sanctioning of private speech and this is a slippery slope that leads down the garden path to the abomination that is state imposed hate speech laws

we are all then subject to the whims of the mob and the speech police because we all hold opinions that others are likely to deem offensive

offensive speech is necessary, even mandatory, in a country that prides itself on being a robust democracy

remember, the guy didn't say "i won't hire blacks" or try to fire his general manager because he was hispanic or something similar ... he said something (racist and offensive, at least to me anyway) where he thought he wasn't being heard by anyone but his companion


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

why would anyone think it's a big story? fatcat & others on here said it well, at 82 his private views are typical, he was illegally tape-recorded in his own house & it looks like he was framed.

the only missing part is who paid her & how much.

once that jigsaw piece gets patched in, she'll become the villainess of the piece. If he hires good enuf lawyers, next thing u know it'll turn into a story about severe elder abuse. 

did ya'll listen to the conversation? i heard part, was as much as i could stomach. She'd been coached. She had a script. Damn, she was good.

no matter, just nail who paid Little Miss Instagram & he's good to go. The opinion pendulum will swing the other way & he'll likely be able to sell at a good price.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> Someone quoted Oprah here; I have another quote:* “As long as people can be judged by the color of their skin, the problem is not solved. There are still generations of people, older people, who were born and bred and marinated in it – in that prejudice and racism – and they just have to die.”* - Picture all those [just in the US], who would not have been able to get away with having made such a comment, even when it's accurate enough.


right, brilliant ... "let's burn the racists !!"

oprah and mj and the rest of the incredibly wealthy black entertainers and sports stars jockeying to try and buy the clippers are victims of racism ? ... 
and they never express racists thought privately ?

really ? seriously ?

racism has to have an effect, it has to inflict a damage beyond merely being offended and that's all that has happened here, very offensive speech
nba players average like $750K a year in salary and many make tens of millions a year, and these guys are victims of racism ?

ps. this is completely different ... completely ... from not renting a house or not hiring someone based on their skin color, in these cases real damage is inflicted on the ability of a person to live their life


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

fatcat said:


> the guy has a long record of discrimination and apparently behaves like a first-class schmuck (i hope i didn't offend any jewish people by my use of an old yiddish word for the foreskin) but that is no reason to *ban him for life* from the nba for comments made privately
> 
> dog, do you seriously think that nba and nfl and mlb owners, the vast majority of whom are white men don't make similar comments and hold similar views privately ?


Marge Schott comes to mind, and that was back in the 90s. I believe she ended up being banned from MLB involvement as well.

Seeing as major league sports are essentially cartels, I think the other owners can force another owner to sell the team. 

Personally, I think that it was overblown, even if he is a contemptible man.

By the by, one of my co-worker's name is Schmuck. Appearently it doesn't have the same connotation if you're German.


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## Echo (Apr 1, 2011)

MRT said:


> I predict the billion dollar threshold being talked about will be SHATTERED. Never mind that the woeful small-market Bucks and Kings each fetched half a billion plus. I genuinely believe that the circumstances surrounding the sale will have a significant positive impact on the eventual sale price given the reasoning above, and because of the greater interest generated in buying the team, particularly amongst those who might not normally exhibited interest. The media has also pointed out that the Clippers TV deal is up soon too, opening the doors for a monstrous new contract under the right circumstances.


Would you really want to be the person (or group) to hand this prick a billion dollars for his franchise? How much good will have the Clippers lost because of this scandal? Sponsors abandoning the franchise in droves. If the league can force a sale they should make him sell it for a dollar. I'd offer him a dollar and give $500M to youth charities in LA rather than make this rich ******* even richer.


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## Islenska (May 4, 2011)

Ya this is not a "We shall overcome" moment

Such a very American story, even the President is howling with indignation.

So what does she see in the old entrepreneur ?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't think there's any saving Mr Sterling, unless the comments were not his own. But it seems they are his own. It doesn't matter if he was set up--the cat is out of the bag. You can't force people to associate with him, and their refusal to do so makes his continued ownership of the team somewhat untenable.


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## Longwinston (Oct 20, 2013)

andrewf said:


> I don't think there's any saving Mr Sterling, unless the comments were not his own. But it seems they are his own. It doesn't matter if he was set up--the cat is out of the bag. You can't force people to associate with him, and their refusal to do so makes his continued ownership of the team somewhat untenable.



Yes, agreed. No question the man deserves the consequences of his actions even if he was set up. As long as the state doesn't sanction someone speech, then there is no free speech angle here as far as I am concerned.

However, I am concerned that this was such a big deal. Really, racism in North America is not near the real issue it had been, even relatively recently. What we have now is 'racism' being used as a wedge issue in politics. The main stream media roots out these things and analyses them to death, to the detriment of society in some aspects I think. It drives divisions that largely, otherwise would not be there. I think this feeds in to the relatively recent habit of victim hood shopping. 

That issue, to me, is a concern.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

Echo said:


> Would you really want to be the person (or group) to hand this prick a billion dollars for his franchise? How much good will have the Clippers lost because of this scandal? Sponsors abandoning the franchise in droves. If the league can force a sale they should make him sell it for a dollar. I'd offer him a dollar and give $500M to youth charities in LA rather than make this rich ******* even richer.


am i correct here ? ... you believe that if a person says something in private that is anti-social and despicable, he should be stripped of his assets ? ... 

the law should sanction confiscation of property for anti-social speech ... do i have that right ?


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## Charlie (May 20, 2011)

No one is confiscating anything. If he's forced to sell, he'll do so at market rates.

The private club to which he belongs, the NBA owners club, might have reason to no longer want him as a member, and they have a process to make that happen. They're not forcing him out for any protected reason -- ethnicity, gender, etc. There's no inherent right to being an NBA owner. Doesn't matter if his comments were intended to be private. They're not private now and there's no dispute they're his.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Just to add on to Charlie's comment - the legal system is not involved in this process at all.

He's hurting the league and the other owners want him out. Doesn't really matter why.


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## rossco12 (Dec 4, 2013)

I listened to a 10 minute portion of the conversation, during which Sterling explicitly stated several times "I do not hate black people", as well as numerous attempts to dismiss the conversation entirely. He was quite clearly baited by his gold digging mistress into making questionable comments about something he didn't even want to discuss. He also encouraged her to spend as much time as she wanted to with members of other races. 

He's probably an a**hole. He probably had this coming and he's not getting out of it, but this incident seems to be a little overblown. He's just the guy you'd see at the bar hanging out with Sean Avery and Rob Ford.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

fatcat said:


> am i correct here ? ... you believe that if a person says something in private that is anti-social and despicable, he should be stripped of his assets ? ...
> 
> the law should sanction confiscation of property for anti-social speech ... do i have that right ?


The private owner's club that is the NBA are who is reacting ... not the law.
If the private owner's club can pick and choose who to admit, what's so strange about them deciding who to boot out?

Then too, the sponsers have already suspended or cancelled deals with the team, the longer he waits to sell - potentially the market value will be deemed much lower.


Cheers


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

yes, indeed, the nba rich guys club have every right to include or exclude whoever they choose according to their own rich-white-guy rules

if sterling is forced out he will no doubt demand a decent market price and if he doesn't get it we can predict a court case and in that sense, the state will get involved

the whole things smacks of a bloodied fox, baying hounds and a howling mob
it does little to actually advance the discussion of race and racism in america

but then, very little advances this particular discussion in the good old usa
it's a discussion we have successfully endeavoured to avoid for a long time

it festers as it has for 150 years and occasionally erupts in a fury as in the reaction to sterlings ill-considered but common remarks

too bad ... we will get sterlings head but not much else
it's back to business as usual


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Sterlings mistress is the evil one here(i wonder if privately outside of the 'group' the nba boy's club individually not think this,there must be some who are backing him but maybe can't openly)
I also wonder(this is MO)sterlings mistress is of very questionable character,why is the great magic johnson associating with her in the first place?something stinks here,and something imo seems concealed(there is a huge cast of character's in this story)
Is it wrong i am sympathising for donald sterling?
As far as clipper's losing value,FAT chance(this is prob the biggest blessing in disguise)americans love to rally for the 'victim' spike lee/oprah/micheal jordan ect(god knows who)will be public back america's team the 'clippers'(i can see some type of nike commercial already!
How can anyone see the value of the clippers going down from here?(i see it going up)Obama himself i am calling sometime in the near future will be wearing a clippers baseball hat or t-shirt just watch.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Sponsors pulling funding would tend to hurt the value of the team. If the teams' brand is tarnished by being held by a crotchety racist swinger weirdo, that probably also hurts the value of the team


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Andrew i don't mean donald sterling,i am saying what the team could look like going forward for the eventual new owner(whoever that will be)the fans/media ect are not going to vilify the buyer(or you think they will?)the clipper's are only varnished because of sterling,remove sterling and the re-brading will have i think a platform to spring from going foward
This is just my own thoughts on the matter,maybe it is a good investment because it will be sold low but more upside going forward
this is how my 'investment' philosophy would read this,if i was a billionaire i would be very interested.
The sponsor's(new or old)will be back,is my general thinking off perhaps.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

On the big stage this is what the mark cubans of the world live for(i am sure there is a ton of interested.The buying price is the definition of buying a de-stressed asset for under book vaule(how much was the clipper's worth 2 weeks ago?)


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## Echo (Apr 1, 2011)

No doubt people will rally to the new owner(s) and the sponsors will come back. What I'm saying is that all of this buzz about who is going to buy the team and that the price tag will shatter records is absurd when you think about who will be on the receiving end of the sale. Will the new owner(s) be seen as a hero for rescuing the franchise from Sterling or will they be considered the fool for giving this guy a billion+ for his team? 

I recognize the potential value of this franchise but I'd hate to see an outrageous offer like what happened with the Dodgers when they for $2B. Forbes values the Clippers at $575M - #13 among NBA franchises. They have operating income of $15M per year on $128M revenue. Compare that with the Lakers - operating income of $66M on $295M revenue per year.


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## Ebin (Feb 9, 2013)

rossco12 said:


> I listened to a 10 minute portion of the conversation, during which Sterling explicitly stated several times "I do not hate black people", as well as numerous attempts to dismiss the conversation entirely. He was quite clearly baited by his gold digging mistress into making questionable comments about something he didn't even want to discuss. He also encouraged her to spend as much time as she wanted to with members of other races.
> 
> He's probably an a**hole. He probably had this coming and he's not getting out of it, but this incident seems to be a little overblown. He's just the guy you'd see at the bar hanging out with Sean Avery and Rob Ford.


Considering he's had to settle several lawsuits over discrimination based on race where he refused to rent to blacks and Latinos because "they stink of vermin" I don't think his repeated statements of "I do not hate black people" hold much weight. It's been no secret to those who follow basketball that Donald Sterling was/is total scum when it came to his views on other races - the shame is that all this time all the people in power have looked the other way as he used his wealth and power to abuse others. This is a man who brought white women into the locker room while his players were showering and said, "Look at those beautiful black bodies" like it was some cattle yard (corroborated by two players, one who is still on the team). 

His statement of "I do not hate black people" falls under the "If you have to say you're not racist then it probably means you're totally racist."

Donald Sterling is not probably an a**hole, he is most definitely a racist a**hole. He always has been, no one who follows basketball and knows his history ever questioned it. The question was always what anyone was going to do about it.

As for his "gold-digging mistress" - that's one storyline, another is that she was more personal assistant than girlfriend (one partial source: http://grantland.com/features/sterlings-fold/). Her camp (I think it's her camp) seem to be claiming that she didn't leak it and that she has hundreds of hours of recordings that were made at his request. Not saying I believe it but let's not just jump to conclusions, there's more to this story than we know right now.


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## Echo (Apr 1, 2011)

Might be a pretty short ban - he's got cancer - http://nypost.com/2014/05/01/disgraced-clippers-owner-donald-sterling-is-battling-cancer/


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I see what you are saying echo,i think the new buyer won't be even thinking about sterlings pockets(business is business)
sterlings was wrong but at the end of the day sterling still owns a asset and whoever buys it will see value for whatever it is bought for


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Fatcat said, "dog, do you seriously think that nba and nfl and mlb owners, the vast majority of whom are white men don't make similar comments and hold similar views privately" ?

I believe this may be true and I said in my opening post that taxpayers should not be enslaving themselves, by putting up money, land or give tax breaks to build facilities for already rich people just to have a professional sports franchise in the city. If these owners were really interested and loyal to a city or region and want that city or region to win then they would build the franchise without taxpayers help.


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## Ebin (Feb 9, 2013)

Longwinston said:


> Yes, agreed. No question the man deserves the consequences of his actions even if he was set up. As long as the state doesn't sanction someone speech, then there is no free speech angle here as far as I am concerned.
> 
> However, I am concerned that this was such a big deal. Really, racism in North America is not near the real issue it had been, even relatively recently. What we have now is 'racism' being used as a wedge issue in politics. The main stream media roots out these things and analyses them to death, to the detriment of society in some aspects I think. It drives divisions that largely, otherwise would not be there. I think this feeds in to the relatively recent habit of victim hood shopping.
> 
> That issue, to me, is a concern.


Not a real issue?

Like the hero to the right wing/anti-govt'rs who asked if things were better when blacks were slaves?



> “I want to tell you one more thing I know about the *****. They didn’t have nothing to do … they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” Mr. Bundy said of blacks he saw at a housing project in North Las Vegas. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.” - Cliven Bundy


Bundy was getting huge coverage with Fox until he uttered such things (he later said that it was Martin Luther King's fault that people were offended by his words b/c King didn't DO HIS JOB) then he got huge coverage from those who went "Holy crap, did he just say that?!"

Maybe there's the deliberate attempts to disenfranchise ethnic voters by changing voting rules by reducing voting hours in districts with high minority populations? By claiming there was voter fraud when the electoral officers said no such thing was happening? Republicans merely admitted that the change in laws was entirely to prevent Democratic voters from voting? (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...r-id-laws-are-aimed-at-democratic-voters.html)

Yeah, racism is not a big deal when widespread efforts are being undertaken by a national political party to prevent the "coloured" folk from the basic right of voting.

Let me touch closer to home with a real-life example:

Today at Home Depot my father/mother in law were the subject of a white lady accusing them of "stealing" the flowers that were in her shopping cart (someone else took them - that someone else was found and apologized for taking them). That lady told my MIL that Chinese people like her should learn some manners and go back to the country they came from. (That lady later apologized profusely for her error but her true colours had already shown)

So when my MIL can be in a Home Depot minding her own business in a city known for multiculturalism (Vancouver) and be subjected to a white lady's racist rant then I'm going to say that we haven't done enough about racism.

Racism is certainly not as bad as it was 40 years ago but it by no means not a real issue and it certainly is not used as wedge politics by those who are still subject to it.

I'm pretty luck, I born and raised in a multicultural city, I work in a multicultural industry where I'm well respected and have meaningful authority so I'm pretty insulated from racism but I can STILL name cases where I was subject to overt, deliberate racism. 

The more I write, the more offended I am at your choice of words so I'll stop now.


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## rossco12 (Dec 4, 2013)

Ebin said:


> Not a real issue?
> 
> Like the hero to the right wing/anti-govt'rs who asked if things were better when blacks were slaves?
> 
> ...


I understand how touchy of a subject this can be, but I will share a recent experience of mine. Let me first get it out of the way that no person on this earth deserves to be judged, persecuted, or otherwise discriminated against because of the colour of their skin, the god they pray to, or any other practice or element of their life to which they are and should be fully entitled. Obviously the stereotypical prejudice your MIL was subject to is completely uncalled for and disgusting.

My (African-American) girlfriend and I were shopping in the Richmond mall. It was not all that crowded, but we found ourselves being cut off and bumped into unnecessarily by a lot of people who happened to be Asian, and I would presume, first generation immigrants. There seemed to be an element of tunnel vision and it became quite frustrating as the day went on, prompting a discussion between us as to why it was happening. I came to the conclusion that these many of these people were most likely accustomed to a much, much more crowded society in which they simply needed to walk with a head of steam in order to accomplish daily tasks. Without taking the time to think beyond the fact that we were playing bumper cars in a mostly empty mall, we could have easily convinced ourselves that Asians are intentionally rude, end of story. In order to stop these racist generalizations from happening, awareness must be raised as to why and how traits born out of different cultures end up misconstrued as negative stereotypes.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

^^ With regard to Bundy......you could watch a different perspective here:

http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=mpg&mpid=84&load=9670


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

I liked the response by the league, and suspect that the other owners want this guy out, as I wouldn't want to be in a business partnership with him either.

Shall we start a CMF pool to buy the team.....


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## Ebin (Feb 9, 2013)

Cal said:


> I liked the response by the league, and suspect that the other owners want this guy out, as I wouldn't want to be in a business partnership with him either.
> 
> Shall we start a CMF pool to buy the team.....


http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014...ippers-yacht-basketball-is-this-dude-for-real

I think Larry Ellison has a head start on his qualifications to own the Clippers.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_Considering he's had to settle several lawsuits over discrimination based on race where he refused to rent to blacks and Latinos because "they stink of vermin"_ It's always easy to judge others..... When I lived in Israel, Israel brought Ethiopean Jews (obviously black) ... government than bought in several cities (not in Tel Aviv or Haifa - they won't dare to do it there) number of units in several condos and gave it for free to Ethiopean Jews. People who bought condos with their own $$$ organized protests and demonstations.... 
so prices of condos in buidings where Ethiopean Jews started to lived, dropped right away 30-40%.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I think this story is the catalyst behind the Bruins quickly denouncing with vigor racist Bruin fans comments on twitter at P.K. Subban after the Canadians victory in game one.

http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/bruins-brass-fans-denounce-racist-comments-1.1803200


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## Longwinston (Oct 20, 2013)

> The more I write, the more offended I am at your choice of words so I'll stop now


You can choose to be offended if you want but it was not my intent to offend. I think it's more a matter of you reading what you want to read. I didn't say racism wasn't a real issue, I said it wasn't a real issue compared to what it used to be. That is the difference. 

You choose to highlight foxnews, republicans and Bundy yet you ignore that Sterling is a life long prominent Democrat and then you question my assertion that racism is being used as a wedge issue in politics?

Ok then

Cheers


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

gibor said:


> It's always easy to judge others..... When I lived in Israel, Israel brought Ethiopean Jews (obviously black) ... government than bought in several cities (not in Tel Aviv or Haifa - they won't dare to do it there) number of units in several condos and gave it for free to Ethiopean Jews. People who bought condos with their own $$$ organized protests and demonstations.... *so prices of condos in buidings where Ethiopean Jews started to lived, dropped right away 30-40%*.


LOL, did you have to travel back to Israel for such an example, when the same happens here. What do you think would happen/has happened to 'condo' values here when gov. housed refugees in said condos.? A former colleage, when selling her Etobicoke condo. to move to another province, lost 30%, and she attributed it to the large group of African refugees living in her bldg.

And as I said on my 1st post [smug me, lol], it was a big story indeed, but not exactly for the right reasons. This article explains it well:

*'It is all very entertaining...'* Why people love all the e-talk garbage shows.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...rob-ford-may-be-less-righteous-than-we-think/

I read [headline only] that Barbara Walters has already interviewed the gf., or whatever she is. LOL, but then again, who created 'The View', ie: gossip talk shows?!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Toronto.gal said:


> LOL, did you have to travel back to Israel for such an example, when the same happens here. What do you think would happen/has happened to 'condo' values here when gov. housed refugees in said condos.? A former colleage, when selling her Etobicoke condo. to move to another province, lost 30%, and she attributed it to the large group of African refugees living in her bldg.


T.gal, I'm just not aware about such stories here  . But in Israel my wife family had such "experience", in condo they bought, government bought first 2 floors out of 9 and gave to Ethiopeans... Can you imagine what happened to building, when those guys 1st time in their life saw elevators, washrooms, stoves etc...?! And smell was so bad that you litteraly need gas mask 
Also note, that both sides Ethiopean and not Ethiopena are jews  ....my point is that it's easy to blame somebody in racism if it doesn't impact you directly


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

gibor said:


> my point is that it's easy to blame somebody in racism if it doesn't impact you directly


Your point was clear, and I agreed. 

Hypocritical behaviour is alive and well, not just racism.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

dogcom said:


> I think this story is the catalyst behind the Bruins quickly denouncing with vigor racist Bruin fans comments on twitter at P.K. Subban after the Canadians victory in game one...


It might be a reminder but this is not the first time such comments have been made by Bruins fans after a Canadiens victory ... nor is it the first time Boston management as well as other Boston fans have denounced such behaviour.


Cheers


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

The NHL even thought they are a mostly white league do seem to care and act very quickly to any form of racism. I was listening to an interview with Subban of the Canadians and he was saying that the league, hockey the bruins and the vast majority of the Bruins fans have nothing to do with racist comments a fan makes.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/p-k-subban-doesn-t-link-racial-abuse-with-bruins-fans-1.2630929


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> LOL, did you have to travel back to Israel for such an example, when the same happens here. What do you think would happen/has happened to 'condo' values here when gov. housed refugees in said condos.? A former colleage, when selling her Etobicoke condo. to move to another province, lost 30%, and she attributed it to the large group of African refugees living in her bldg.
> 
> And as I said on my 1st post [smug me, lol], it was a big story indeed, but not exactly for the right reasons. This article explains it well:
> 
> ...



This is interesting, but I think any large group of poorer refugees or immigrants would hurt a condo sale. I live in a house and if the government decided to house a bunch of refugees of any color in my neighborhood I may not like it for the fact that my house price would drop and my neighborhood would change so much.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

dogcom said:


> I think any large group of *poorer refugees* or immigrants would hurt a condo sale.


True enough, however, the issues are far more complex, as it deals with more than poverty. As in gibor's example, and that of my colleage, the refugees were not only unfamiliar with home appliances, but also with many other aspects of their new environment. As a result, some caused considerable damage to not only their units, but also the exterior. For example, I was told many of the new refugees would meet in the hallway to eat, talk/leave garbage everywhere/walked barefoot, etc. [not to say anything of the other more problematic aspects, ie: violence].

I'm not sure what the immigration settlement programs in Canada do or don't do, but it goes without saying that many would need cultural type/integration services, as otherwise, how would they even be aware of their responsibilities as renters & new citizens?

The other issue, is that most condo/home owners would have started as renters, and so they/we might resent,'poor' immigrants starting with 'luxury' living. Would this be considered housing discrimination/racism as well? How many people here, who have rentals, could be called 100% non-discriminatory, I wonder?

As gibor correctly stated, it's easy to criticize & label people when issues don't affect you directly. Have 2 floors of your condos rented to new immigrants/have gov. housing projects built near your homes, and let's see if you'll complain or not. 

**********

Going back to Sterling, if his racism had been well known & documented in the past, how come he was about to receive yet another 'lifetime achievement award'? The NAACP is not the only hypocrite here, as didn't everyone familiar with this man, ie: NBA, etc., not aware about his behaviour before the tape leaked? 

- From racist to lifetime achievement award ['The first time Sterling was awarded a lifetime achievement award by the group was in the midst of a lawsuit for housing discrimination based upon race.']

- Back to racist & about to receive another award.

- Oooppps, tape leaked; withdraw award from the same old bigot.

Give me a break.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

And speaking of withdrawing awards, where is the thread/outrage about what was done to Ms. Hirsi-Ali? :rolleyes2:

'*Oprah can get 10 honourary degrees and a winsome reception for her third-rate psuedo-therapies. But the real warrior in the cause for woman's rights - a woman who truly rose by virtue of her courage, intelligence, industry - must walk, shamed, away from the platform she was invited to.'*

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ave-become-factories-for-reinforcing-opinion/ 

Hypocrisy at its very best.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> I'm not sure what the immigration settlement programs in Canada do or don't do, but it goes without saying that many would need cultural type/integration services


I seem to recall, a number of years back, that a booklet _was_ published/issued, (and quickly withdrawn because it was deemed 'offensive' (and politically incorrect) to suggest that people coming from (primarily) Third World countries would require (what to Canadians would be) 'basic' behavioral instructions).


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> And speaking of withdrawing awards, where is the thread/outrage about what was done to Ms. Hirsi-Ali? :rolleyes2:
> 
> '*Oprah can get 10 honourary degrees and a winsome reception for her third-rate psuedo-therapies. But the real warrior in the cause for woman's rights - a woman who truly rose by virtue of her courage, intelligence, industry - must walk, shamed, away from the platform she was invited to.'*
> 
> ...


she is a brave and outspoken women and has been for many years (so far anyway, she is in constant danger)

murphy says in his piece:


> Their petition carried the now-familiar prissy, hollow whines that some students would be “uncomfortable,” would “not feel welcome,” if Ali, with her learned views on Islam and women — derived mainly from her personal life experience, mind you — were to be honoured.


this kind of pathetic, gutless whining is daily taking it's toll on our speech ... we all (and especially those in the public eye) must inventory every utterance lest we offend some group who knows where ... it is casually dumbing us down and doing nothing to change our views, it usually only serves to harden racist and anti-social ideas

the problem is that sterling right to be offensive is intimately linked to ayan hirsi ali's right to speak her truth about islam and yet we have many on this forum and in the public square who are ready and willing to hang them both

and unlike ali's, sterling comments were actually private and involved no direct business dealing with his team, they were merely an opinion and people want to strip him _for life_ of his right to participate in the nba


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_I'm not sure what the immigration settlement programs in Canada do or don't do_ don't know about refugees prgrams, but some time ago I checked official stats of immigration Canada for legal immigrants.... I was very surprised to see that 35-40% of every year immigrant consistes from just 4 countries: Philipins, India, China and Pakistan.
...
T.gal, you very precise describe what was in Israel  One more think to add, Ethiopean guys liked a lot to have huge parties with hundreds of people , withj drinks , spesial food and very loud music.... and as per law they coannot do it after 11pm, but police had a very big trouble to make them quiet


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

gibor said:


> _I'm not sure what the immigration settlement programs in Canada do or don't do_ don't know about refugees prgrams, but some time ago I checked official stats of immigration Canada for legal immigrants.... I was very surprised to see that 35-40% of every year immigrant consistes from just 4 countries: Philipins, India, China and Pakistan.


One word: Pierre Elliot Trudeau.


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## MRT (Apr 8, 2013)

fatcat said:


> ...
> and unlike ali's, sterling comments were actually private and involved no direct business dealing with his team, they were merely an opinion and people want to strip him _for life_ of his right to participate in the nba


How do you figure that any of Sterling's rights have been taken away or that he has a "right to participate in the nba"? 

He has a right to voice his opinions without sanction from the state. That is not the same as being able to voice one's opinions without consequence. 

You keep talking as if he is being treated illegally or unjustly and that is quite simply FALSE according to the law. If you think he is being treated badly or that people are overreacting, that is fine, but no "rights" are being infringed upon here and that is big difference that you fail to appreciate.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Nemo2 said:


> One word: Pierre Elliot Trudeau.


So PET is running Canadian immigration policy from beyond the grave?

And what is the problem with such a fraction of immigration coming from the most populous counties on earth? Not white enough? Where is the shock coming from?


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## praire_guy (Sep 8, 2011)

rossco12 said:


> I understand how touchy of a subject this can be, but I will share a recent experience of mine. Let me first get it out of the way that no person on this earth deserves to be judged, persecuted, or otherwise discriminated against because of the colour of their skin, the god they pray to, or any other practice or element of their life to which they are and should be fully entitled. Obviously the stereotypical prejudice your MIL was subject to is completely uncalled for and disgusting.
> 
> My (African-American) girlfriend and I were shopping in the Richmond mall. It was not all that crowded, but we found ourselves being cut off and bumped into unnecessarily by a lot of people who happened to be Asian, and I would presume, first generation immigrants. There seemed to be an element of tunnel vision and it became quite frustrating as the day went on, prompting a discussion between us as to why it was happening. I came to the conclusion that these many of these people were most likely accustomed to a much, much more crowded society in which they simply needed to walk with a head of steam in order to accomplish daily tasks. Without taking the time to think beyond the fact that we were playing bumper cars in a mostly empty mall, we could have easily convinced ourselves that Asians are intentionally rude, end of story. In order to stop these racist generalizations from happening, awareness must be raised as to why and how traits born out of different cultures end up misconstrued as negative stereotypes.




Or.................maybe people that come here from different countries should learn what is acceptable and not acceptable in this country??? And maybe people won't misconstrue things as negative stereo types?

At least they are given the courtesy of negative stereo types. I'm positive that if I did things that were unacceptable in another country (like denouncing Islam or death to Islam, or how oppressive honor killings are) I wouldn't be misconstrued, I'd simply be shot, stoned or beheaded. 

I have generally found the same experiences from Asians , many times. 

If it's true it's NOT a stereotype.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

andrewf said:


> So PET is running Canadian immigration policy from beyond the grave?
> 
> And what is the problem with such a fraction of immigration coming from the most populous counties on earth? Not white enough? Where is the shock coming from?


PET started the multicultural ball rolling with the sole intent of duplicating the very effective Democrat 'Tammany Hall' ward boss system, with 'community leaders' 'advising' (exhorting) partially or totally unintegrated groups into voting Liberal; along the lines of LBJ's "We'll have these......voting Democrat for the next 200 years".

Nothing, or very little, to do with race, (nice straw man though*), more about winning elections.......the other parties subsequently jumped on the proverbial bandwagon.

(*My oldest friend, for some 47+ years, was born in a B.C. Japanese internment camp.)


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> And what is the problem with such a fraction of immigration coming from the most populous counties on earth? Not white enough? Where is the shock coming from?


Oh really?! Population of Philipins almost twice less than in Russia and number of Philipinos immigrant about 16 times higher.... it's 80 times higher than from Serbia and 115! times higher than from Argentina....What is the problem? Maybe Russians or Serbians are too white?!
Looking at those numbers
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2012/permanent/10.asp

looks like racism....


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

gibor said:


> Oh really?! Population of Philipins almost twice less than in Russia and number of Philipinos immigrant about 16 times higher.... it's 80 times higher than from Serbia and 115! times higher than from Argentina....What is the problem? Maybe Russians or Serbians are too white?!
> ... looks like racism....


Or maybe the Russians/Serbians don't want to come into Canada as nanny's/personal support workers then work their way into becoming Canadian citizens?


I can look at the number of Mexicans working in Niagara as farm workers and think it's racism as "why aren't the farmers hiring Canadians". 


Without more info and research, it may have nothing to do with racism.


Cheers


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

gibor, clearly all the Russians are staying in Russia now that Putin's fixed up the place. Why would they leave?


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## Tom Dl (Feb 15, 2011)

Sterling should put up a million for everyone who comes in with verifiable (preferably audio) evidence that any of his peers who will vote on his sale, have at any prior time made a racist comment. It doesn't change anything about his own character, but it he has the money, and it would be fun to see. I have worked for a number of high profile CEOs, and they all made prejudiced/or racist comments in the workplace at one time or another. I remember one who is now a national figure making the comment that Arabs had never contributed anything to world culture, as part of a passionate anti-Arab rant.

The CBC had a panel on this event about a week ago, and an X-coach made crazy racist and ageist comments without anyone seeming to notice. There is so much more work to be done, let's hope people get on with it.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

My last comment.
there is someone in a hospital right now that is in ICU and is paralyzed from the neck down
there is someone going through cancer treatment
there is a parent somewhere that had a police officer at the door and told them there child has been kill in a accident
you get the POINT!
I frankly am so sick and tired of this **** in the media!yeah Donald sterling was wrong!It was awful!But for the love of god!!!!!!!
I am half Italian(darker skin) and have been called racist things due to my race,you know what,I get on with it and I don't care, I am soooo tired of opening up a paper everyday with stories like this.BLACK people are not the only group that gets discriminated against,i am so tired of!
I have a friend in a ICU at the hospital battling right now!TO LIVE!PERSPECTIVE!TO LIVE!


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/who-among-us/?singlepage=true


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Nemo2 said:


> [B]1.[/B] http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/who-among-us/?singlepage=true
> *2.* Nothing, or very little, to do with race, (nice straw man though*), more about winning elections.


*1.* Excellent article! But the examples are truly endless, starting at the very top of the world with the POTUS himself. Hence it can be neatly summarized in 2 words: rampant HYPOCRISY, which is what the Sterling case has been all about. And of course, it was about the very collective outrage as well, which is the latest endemic craze, but not when the story isn't entertaining/hot/private/sleazy enough, then it's just deafening or near silence, as explained in the schadenfreude article upthread. 

*2.* 'The Truth About Trudeau.'
http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/nothing-to-write-home-about/

Eclectic makes a good point, but so does gibor with respect to immigration [and ofc not just about Russia/Serbia, which he used just as examples closer to his heart].


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> *2.* 'The Truth About Trudeau.'
> http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/nothing-to-write-home-about/
> 
> Eclectic makes a good point, but so does gibor with respect to immigration [and ofc not just about Russia/Serbia, which he used just as examples closer to his heart].


I had read neither the article (nor the book) previously......but much of what is contained therein was obvious to those who were around at the time.....and not comatose.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

fatcat said:


> sterling comments were actually private and involved no direct business dealing with his team, they were merely an opinion and people want to strip him _for life_ of his right to participate in the nba


It seems that the public outrage & anger of private recordings is mostly reserved for the NSA/CSIS. Wonder what those who believe in the consequences of private opinion would say, if their sleazy friends, spouses, etc., were to record them [without their consent] for their bosses & world to hear. Would they still believe that the consequences were all kosher, if say, they were fired from their jobs, and that 'no rights had been infringed upon them'? I bet if that had been done to them, they would quickly consult a lawyer, and just as quickly start 2 lawsuits, lol. 

Who are the ones with the most toxic attitudes in all of this?

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: *Welcome to the Finger-Wagging Olympics*
http://time.com/79590/donald-sterling-kareem-abdul-jabbar-racism/ 

*Donald:* you can't just blame the media, who gives the public exactly what it wants. I hope your friend gets better.

*Nemo:* I have not read the book either, but a friend mentioned/recommended it, and so I'll read it [probably won't get to it until the Fall since I have 9 books to complete until then].


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Tom Dl said:


> I remember one who is now a national figure making the comment that Arabs had never contributed anything to world culture, as part of a passionate anti-Arab rant.


Hilarious. I can see what he might mean if he looks at recent history, but Arab countries used to be quite advanced. We owe the numerals we use to Arabs as well as algebra. Both make math much easier than the clunky tools we had before.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Are we supposed to believe that ethnic (or other identifier) vote targeting was novel in the '70s or invented/perfected by Trudeau?

And what does that have to do with the current Conservative government admitting a large portion of current immigration from China, India, Pakistan and the Philippines?


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> I can see what he might mean if he looks at recent history, but Arab countries used to be quite advanced. We owe the numerals we use to Arabs as well as algebra. Both make math much easier than the clunky tools we had before.


Since no name/quote was provided, what Tom said is hearsay. But if this 'national figure' had not been referring to recent times, then there would be little room for misinterpretation.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

andrewf said:


> We owe the numerals we use to Arabs as well as algebra.


Not so fast:

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Arabic_numerals.html



> Arabic numerals or Hindu numerals[1][2] or Hindu-Arabic numerals[2][3] are the ten digits (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9). They are descended from the Hindu-Arabic numeral system developed by Indian mathematicians, in which a sequence of numerals such as "975" is read as a whole number. The Indian numerals were adopted by the Persian mathematicians in India, and passed on to the Arabs further west. They were transmitted to Europe in the Middle Ages. The use of Arabic numerals spread around the world through European trade, books and colonialism. Today they are the most common symbolic representation of numbers in the world.
> 
> As befitting their history, the digits (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9) are also known as Hindu numerals or "Hindu-Arabic numerals". *The reason that they are more commonly known as "Arabic numerals" in Europe and the Americas is that they were introduced to Europe in the 10th century by Arabs of North Africa, who were then using the digits from Libya to Morocco. Europeans did not know about the numerals' origins in ancient India, so they named them "Arabic numerals"*.[4] Arabs, on the other hand, call the system "Hindu numerals",[5][6] referring to their origin in India.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> gibor, clearly all the Russians are staying in Russia now that Putin's fixed up the place. Why would they leave?


Using your logic people in Russia live much better than in UK of France (as they have much less number of immigrants) and one of the best is Mozambique 
But seriously, I've never though that in Canada I will be visual minority! At my department I'm the only white among 20-35 guys


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Are we supposed to believe that ethnic (or other identifier) vote targeting was novel in the '70s or invented/perfected by Trudeau?
> 
> And what does that have to do with the current Conservative government admitting a large portion of current immigration from China, India, Pakistan and the Philippines?


Current government doesn't do anything... some time ago I emailed such question to Minister of Immigration , no any response... Even Harper (actually his secretary) answered me when I sent him email regarding different issue 
IMHO, immigrants from those countries in 70's-80s infiltrated government immigration offices and now they bring practically only their own people (with very little exceptions)


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't know, I work with plenty of people that come from different areas... latin America, middle east, north Africa, sub-saharan Africa, eastern europeans (including quite a few Russians), and Brits. Not too many from the rest of western europe (France, Germany, etc.).

The Conservatives do quite well among immigrants. I'm not sure why they would oppose immigration.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> The Conservatives do quite well among immigrants. I'm not sure why they would oppose immigration.


Did I say that I oppose??? I just said that it should be balanced among different countries.... there is no any reason that 40% of immigrants will be coming from just 4 countries, as per table I published last 10 years Canada except almost 1 million from those 4 countries! it's a huge number.... and those 1 mil brought maybe another 1 mil as familiy immigrants...
Looks like very soon in GTA French immersion schools (where my daughter is going) will be unecessary and replace by Hindi and Mandarin Immersion schools


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

The problem with that table is that it doesn't point out applications, if there aren't that many people applying from Russia then there aren't as many people accepted. The only real outlier is the Philippines, but if you were to base it on world population you have as the top 10 via Wikipedia: China, India, USA, Indonesia, Brazil, Pakistan, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Russia, and then Japan. The top 10 on that table you have China, Philippines, India, Pakistan, USA, France, Iran, UK, Haiti, South Korea. 

You'll note for the top ten most populous countries, there aren't a whole lot of European countries, and Indonesia is very under-represented.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I haven't heard of Russians having a problem applying for immigration. Is it difficult? It seems like there are quite a few here.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> It seems that the public outrage & anger of private recordings is mostly reserved for the NSA/CSIS. Wonder what those who believe in the consequences of private opinion would say, if their sleazy friends, spouses, etc., were to record them [without their consent] for their bosses & world to hear. Would they still believe that the consequences were all kosher, if say, they were fired from their jobs, and that 'no rights had been infringed upon them'? I bet if that had been done to them, they would quickly consult a lawyer, and just as quickly start 2 lawsuits, lol.
> 
> Who are the ones with the most toxic attitudes in all of this?
> 
> ...



That was a good article by Kareem T.gal. I agree with him that his past was more of a problem then some private phone conversation and the fact it was taped is also a big problem.

If you were to record people in cars in traffic I am sure you could get many racist sound bites or comments about gender and old people. I also think racism no matter who it is directed at is impossible to stamp out. All you can do is raise awareness and bring up your children correctly, but just like you can't stamp out crime, you can't stamp out racism. You always here comments that we still have a ways to go to stamp out racism, but there will always be someone who will be racist for whatever reason so it is actually stupid to say we can completely get rid of it.


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## kevinlk (Jul 9, 2009)

Personally, I think what Sterling said shouldn't have caused this uproar. He may dislike black people, but his statements in the recording haven't affected anyone beyond being mere offensive words. As long it stays in words, and doesn't become actions such as refusing employment or rents to minorities, how is it worse than calling someone an idiot? There will never be an end of people disliking certain nations for whatever reason, but the real battle should be to ensure everyone gets equal opportunity, and strike down those who don't respect this.

The fact that this was recorded in a private conversation, in a private home, "leaked" to the media and created such an uproar and consequences is rather disturbing. This article summarizes well where this can lead us: http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/30/opinion/randazza-sterling-privacy/index.html?hpt=op_mid


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

kevinlk said:


> This article summarizes well where this can lead us: http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/30/opinion/randazza-sterling-privacy/index.html?hpt=op_mid


From the article:


> The Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy made his own stupid and bigoted statements, and he's been nationally pilloried, too -- but he chose to make those statements to the world. He deserves every ounce of obloquy heaped upon him.


 Actually, if you watch the video from my post #43, Bundy is more a victim of his own inarticulateness, and use of "no longer fashionable" terminology, than anything else. 

He is, in fact, bemoaning the fact that many American blacks today are virtual 'slaves' to welfare/benefits, have suffered a huge collapse of their family structure(s), and thus are, in numerous ways, perhaps even worse off (despite the fact that they are nominally 'free'), than they were before. It seems to me that Bundy was sympathizing with their plight but was unable to express it in an 'acceptable' manner.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

> “I want to tell you one more thing I know about the *****,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.
> “And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”


This is really odious. It is not merely inarticulate. He is saying that he doesn't think slavery was all that bad compared to the 'slavery' of receiving benefits. What does he think of all the whites that use welfare? Better off as slaves, too?

This is even more mind-boggling because Bundy has been on his own 'self-serve' welfare binge by stealing grazing services from the American taxpayer.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Bundy:


> And because they were basically on government subsidy – so now what do they do? They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never, they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered are they were better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things? Or are they better off under government subsidy?
> 
> You know they didn’t get more freedom, uh they got less freedom – they got less family life, and their happiness -you could see it in their faces- they were not happy sitting on that concrete sidewalk. Down there they was probably growing their turnips – so that’s all government, that’s not freedom.





> “The welfare state has done to Blacks what slavery couldn’t do, and that is to destroy the Black family.” – Walter E. Williams http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_E._Williams
> 
> 
> “The Black family, which had survived centuries of slavery, began rapidly disintegrating in the liberal welfare state” - Thomas Sowell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

They don't make the argument that blacks were better off as slaves, which is absurd and disgusting.

And I think too much is made of how traditional family structures are becoming less common for American blacks vs society as a whole. You see much the same results among impoverished whites.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I haven't heard of Russians having a problem applying for immigration. Is it difficult? It seems like there are quite a few here.


It's practically impossible! 95% of Russian speaking in Canada came here via Israel , like us, my extended family and about 20 of my friends and 5 former co-workers. I've met only 2-3 guys who came directly from Russia and all of them lived in Moscow...
Not even immigration...for me it's a very big issues to invite even my cousins to visit... Canada just doesn't want to give visas...


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## MRT (Apr 8, 2013)

andrewf said:


> This is really odious. It is not merely inarticulate. He is saying that he doesn't think slavery was all that bad compared to the 'slavery' of receiving benefits. What does he think of all the whites that use welfare? Better off as slaves, too?
> 
> This is even more mind-boggling because Bundy has been on his own 'self-serve' welfare binge by stealing grazing services from the American taxpayer.


The ignorance of his commentary is revolting, but not at all surprising. This clueless idiot fails to acknowledge the horrific working conditions during (and after) the slave era and the absence of even basic human rights during the worst of times....never mind the racist policies enacted by various local, state and federal governments and agencies that extended WELL into the mid-20th century. Heck, de facto segregation is alive and well TODAY in parts of the U.S. 

If anyone is particularly interested in the topic of black history, a wonderful book is "Creating Black Americans: African-American History and its Meanings, 1619 to the Present" by noted historian Nell Irvin Painter.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

gibor said:


> Did I say that I oppose???
> I just said that it should be balanced among different countries.... there is no any reason that 40% of immigrants will be coming from just 4 countries, ...


I would qualify this to "not any reason you are aware of". 

Without checking out the way things work, it could be as simple as there is a bigger incentive (as well as willingness to help relatives immigrate) for these groups compared to other groups who have more options/opportunities.


Cheers


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

gibor said:


> for me it's a very big issues to invite even my cousins to visit... *Canada just doesn't want to give visas.*..


The list of countries requiring visitor's visa is long, as you must know, and obtaining such visas is not easy for many, not just Russians. 
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/visit/visas.asp

Some years ago, friends from Argentina, were denied visitor's visa more than once [got it eventually]. The reason seemed to be [though officials don't have to give you any explanation], that they had been single with no children. The assumption appears to be that any such person would not have strong enough ties to want to return to their country, and that they would end up here illegally. That conclusion is apparently arrived at regardless of invitation letters/education/business-employment-income/other family/passport stamps to various other countries, like US [proving return]. No doubt that that may be the case for some, however, the system seems to be unfair more often than not, and not just frustrating for those not able to obtain the visas.

Are your cousins married? If so, did they request visas to travel alone or with their families? If the latter, then I guess officials could deduce same, that they would have no reason to return, and that they would much prefer to live in your house illegally. :biggrin: Can Russians travel visa-free to the Schengen & other areas btw, and if not, is the process easier there for them? And curious, what about Russia's visa requirements? 

Speaking of visas, have you ever watched the show 'Border Security'? [Canadian version]

***************
*dogcom:* it was good of you to have started this thread, though perhaps not for the reasons you might have expected.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Nemo2 said:


> ... It seems to me that Bundy was sympathizing with their plight but was unable to express it in an 'acceptable' manner.


So "sympathy" is to suggest a system where millions died after capture in Africa or in transit, family members watched their fathers/sons/daughters/mothers sold to different owners, where various offenses such as "sassing" a white person, hitting another "*****", "fussing" or fighting in quarters resulting in being beaten to death?

As an overseer for an absentee owner put it:


> Some ******* are determined never to let a white man whip them and will resist you, when you attempt it; of course you must kill them in that case



I'm not convinced it did keep families together at a better rate than the current situation.

Then too, to me - sympathy is noting that both systems suck and moves to improve the situation.


Cheers


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Thanks T.gal and I don't mind what direction it takes as I meant it for the general discussion part of the forum.

In the border security show I think the number one problem people have is thinking it is ok to have some weed on them.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

MRT said:


> The ignorance of his commentary is revolting, but not at all surprising ...


... or he is focused on how he would operate and is blinding himself to the fact that there were many owners/overseers who did split up families or who didn't feed their slaves well etc. etc.


Cheers


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

From what I've heard Shengen visas is much easier to get.
_The assumption appears to be that any such person would not have strong enough ties to want to return to their country_ 
I know this approach, but it's BS (excuse my French).... I remember that about 15 years ago Israel and Russia had no-visa agreement, many (include even myself) were sceptical , thinking that 10 thousands of illegal immigrant from Russia will flood Israel, but in reality nothing happened  no illegals , nothing.... and both coutries benifited as tourism/business between 2 countries increased significantly..... Live in Russia significantly improved that people would like to be illegals in any country in the world....
For us, it's not a problem to get Russian visa (just pay $150 or so), but if we decide to visit Russia , we just need to extend Israeli passport and don't need any visas


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> I would qualify this to "not any reason you are aware of".
> 
> Without checking out the way things work, it could be as simple as there is a bigger incentive (as well as willingness to help relatives immigrate) for these groups compared to other groups who have more options/opportunities.
> 
> Cheers


I know very good immigration processes and don't understand what "bigger incentive " you are talking about.... as per "willingness to help relatives immigrate" - it doesn't play any role , as all stats were for independend immigrants , for sponsorship class - there are diifferent stas ... btw, my brother lives in Western Europe, and even though that I'm Canadian citizen more than 10 years, i cannot do anything for him, he needs to apply for independend immigrant status as any other person (with no relatives)....


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

gibor said:


> I know very good immigration processes and don't understand what "bigger incentive " you are talking about....


When Whelan was touring Russia several years ago to provide info details of Canadians application procedure as well as what Canada was looking for, one those attending felt that while Canada held promising prospects for him, the road to a life in the North American country would be difficult.

Most people I've talked to from the Philippines have relatives don't care how long or difficult. I know of several where one spouse is working/living in Canada and visiting the other spouse and/or children back home when they can, until someday the family *might* be reunited in Canada.


That suggests that one group is relatively comfortable where they are where the other group is will take any opportunity.


If few are willing to apply from Russia as it is perceived as "difficult" and others from the Philippines apply in bigger, it will shift the numbers on that basis alone.




gibor said:


> ... as per "willingness to help relatives immigrate" - it doesn't play any role , as all stats were for independend immigrants , ...


So relatives telling the applying immigrant what is valued on the application, how to fill out the forms, what the latest changes they need to react too and lining up jobs *in Canada* won't make the applicant look better to Canada and isn't an advantage?


Cheers


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_If few are willing to apply from Russia as it is perceived as "difficult" and others from the Philippines apply in bigger, it will shift the numbers on that basis alone.
_ 

Just repeating the fact... many Russians wants to immigrate to Canada, but Canada prefers Asian immigrants. By "difficult" I meant , not that they just don't apply, they apply, but again Canada prefers Asian immigrants. Stats show it very well. 
P.S. btw, in famous book The Millionaire Next Door [Thomas J. Stanley], stats that highest % of Millionaires in US are from Russian origin.... but Canada doesn't care - the most important now is "political correctness" , so everyone knows the facts, but no one will change something... in next 10-20 years Canada will completely change its demographics ....


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

interesting list

Top 10 Most Racist Countries in the World

http://listcrux.com/top-10-most-racist-countries-in-the-world/


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Where is that eyeroll emoticon?


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## MRT (Apr 8, 2013)

got it right here for you lol

:rolleyes2:

gibor, really? so you googled 'top 10 racist countries' and posted the first result that came up? (because that is what I just did to test my theory, and it was indeed the first result lol)

such a list *might* be interesting if there was some published methodology, wherein the author took the time to conduct some research, collect and analyze data, and arrive at a result that at least resembled an objective list...


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MRT said:


> got it right here for you lol
> 
> :rolleyes2:
> 
> ...


No, I actually clicked on 2 different links and both gave the same results


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

gibor said:


> interesting list
> 
> Top 10 Most Racist Countries in the World
> 
> http://listcrux.com/top-10-most-racist-countries-in-the-world/


what a crock of shite ... the USA more racist than india or china ? ... and what about the africans or scandinavia ... where is sri lanka or most of eastern europe or the balkans ?

the whole planet is awash in racism ... it's what human beings do ....


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Maybe it is because the US and others have a lot more people of different colors, cultures and religions and they haven't killed each other off. Other countries may get involved with ethnic cleansing or what have you, so there is a vast majority of the same type of people living in the country. 

Other countries will not tolerate diluting their people with different types of people so there is no racism to see because there is no one to be racist towards.

Maybe this is the logic, if you can call it that, as the reason the lists show up this way.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

dogcom said:


> Maybe it is because the US and others have a lot more people of different colors, cultures and religions and they haven't killed each other off. Other countries may get involved with ethnic cleansing or what have you, so there is a vast majority of the same type of people living in the country.
> 
> Other countries will not tolerate diluting their people with different types of people so there is no racism to see because there is no one to be racist towards.
> 
> Maybe this is the logic, if you can call it that, as the reason the lists show up this way.


sure and the usa is the most powerful and visible country on the planet but plenty of countries practice racism that is far worse and more violent

the japanese are xenophobes of the first order and look at how the romanians and italians react to the gypsies ... and the indians to the low caste untouchables ... i could cover the whole planet

the united states has a legacy of slavery but so did africa during the same period and most slaves were africans sold into slavery by other africans

you could rewrite history for a hundred years and never subtract the racism and slavery from the history of our planet

it's ludicrous to point fingers, both racism and slavery have existed everywhere on our planet since the dawn of our history

it is what we do ... if we survive and endure no doubt this will fade away and in 500 years we will all be coffee coloured or something, sounds ok to me


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

There's no need to go that far afield. There's always pockets of racism regardless where you are.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...-racial-slurs-at-sutton-high-school-1.2634208


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

fatcat said:


> ... the united states has a legacy of slavery but so did africa during the same period and most slaves were africans sold into slavery by other africans ... it's ludicrous to point fingers, both racism and slavery have existed everywhere on our planet since the dawn of our history ...


This is one of many reasons why I think that ranking, particularly without any criteria - is ludicrous.

Is the US slavery "better" given that some African nations at the same time were slaughtering slaves to help have more rain/better crops?

Or is US slavery "worse" because children of women slaves were legislated to be slaves versus African nations that held only the parent was a slave?


Cheers


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The most obvious racism I see in Canada is toward Natives. It seems that it is still quasi-acceptable to some people, especially given how intractable the plight is of Natives on some high profile reserves and resentment for the disproportionate (at least this is the perception) government resources they consume.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

gibor said:


> 1. I know this approach, but *it's BS (excuse my French)*
> 2. 15 years ago Israel and Russia had no-visa agreement, many (include even myself) were sceptical , thinking that 10 *thousands of illegal immigrant from Russia will flood Israel,* but in reality nothing happened
> 3. *my brother lives in Western Europe*, and even though that I'm Canadian citizen more than 10 years, i cannot do anything for him, *he needs to apply for independend immigrant status* as any other person (with no relatives)....


*1.* French? I thought it was Ivrit or Russkiy.  It's a weak system no doubt, with some outdated rules, insufficient training, etc., etc., but it's nothing new. I understand your frustration perfectly well as I have experienced it myself, and from what I have heard from many others also, many decisions don't appear to make any sense whatsoever. As a matter of fact, report after report by auditor generals, have found strong weaknesses & inconsistencies in the system in general, for example, when comparing decisions by immigration officers, they seem to be doing different things even when dealing with same scenarios, so often times one's admissibility or not, might depend on the officer you'll get, ie: luck, and not so much on any rule per se. Ford was found admissible to the US just a few weeks ago, what changed from then until now?  Anyway, the system is slow & far from perfect, but which one is?

*2.* Change that to Canada-Russia visa-free travel; what would be the result then, you think same? Can't compare apples to oranges. 

*3.* Since you told us that you like EU much better, maybe you can switch places with your brother.  But seriously, if you're talking about not being able to sponsor your ach[im], AFAIK, these don't fall under the category of immediate family, and can only sponsor single siblings, if under 18 and orphan, or on compassionate grounds, ie: if he were your only relative, but you already know all these. The frustration is the same for many, you're not alone.

And about that racist list you posted, seriously gibor, what was interesting about such a list? :hopelessness:


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

gibor said:


> _If few are willing to apply from Russia as it is perceived as "difficult" and others from the Philippines apply in bigger, it will shift the numbers on that basis alone.
> _
> 
> Just repeating the fact... many Russians wants to immigrate to Canada, ...


Yet the person profiled in an article about Canada's Immigration minister making a tour of Russia to explain the application process plus it's criteria to hopefully have more Russians immigrate said he wasn't going to apply based on what his perception of the difficulty where large segments of the Asian world are applying regardless.

So there are more factors at play here than you appear to want to look at.

As a co-worker found out - if you don't apply, your trainee might get the position instead.




gibor said:


> Stats show it very well.


Then it should be easy to show that Russians are applying in numbers but are being rejected.

Unless I've missed it, the stats I've seen thrown about in this thread compared accepted % versus originating country population or what third country Russian speakers come through ... neither of which tell me much about alleged favouritism or possible political correctness.


As for Canada not caring ... sending the Immigration Minister to tour Russia to explain the application as well as criteria being used is a strange way to "not care".


Cheers


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

andrewf said:


> The most obvious racism I see in Canada is toward Natives. It seems that it is still quasi-acceptable to some people, especially given how intractable the plight is of Natives on some high profile reserves and resentment for the disproportionate (at least this is the perception) government resources they consume.


canada has a well documented history of racism (that does not include slavery of course, the legacy of which stills "colors" american race relations to this day)

i was born in 1949 and i remember well how chinese and natives and jews were looked at, and it was much worse back in the old days

non-native canadians are locked into a cycle of anger and guilt with first nations ... it does neither side any good

i would like to see all identities collapsed into one including quebec and first nations, no more "little canada's" ... this is leading nowhere except to more anger and guilt not to mention the cost which is significant

in bc first nations seems to think they have the final word on the northern gateway pipeline, like they have veto power or something ... it doesn't work


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

fatcat said:


> canada has a well documented history of racism (that does not include slavery of course, the legacy of which stills "colors" american race relations to this day)


True 

_In cottage country, and even on Toronto's beaches up to the mid 1950s,
it was common to see signs that read "No Dogs or Jews Allowed"._
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/bernie-farber/human-rights-canada_b_1510399.html
_In the 1930s, Canada had fascist fringe groups within it. One stronger group was the Parti national social chrétien of Adrien Arcand which had significant support. Arcand believed in the anti-Semitic policies of Hitler and called himself the "Canadian Führer". In 1934, his Quebec-based party merged with the western-based fascist Nationalist Party of Canada. In 1938, the English Canadian and French Canadian fascist movements united into the National Unity Party_

I just talked to my co-worker, he's Indian , but lived and worked in Saudia. He's telling that Saudia is the most racist country, people there can get specific jobs only depending on your race.... Local business owners likes to hire whites for manager position , because they like ot brag how many whites to work for him.... After listening to his stories, looks like that South Africa was pretty domocratic country 
imho, US is in the first place in the list, because of it's international politics, other coutries just hate Americans


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

fatcat said:


> canada has a well documented history of racism (that does not include slavery of course, the legacy of which stills "colors" american race relations to this day)


So the slavery that was was legal in Canada until 1833 and included several First Nations that owned and/or traded in slaves *wasn't* racism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Canada




fatcat said:


> i was born in 1949 and i remember well how chinese and natives and jews were looked at, and it was much worse back in the old days ...


Not just these groups ... when being assigned work towards the end of the WWII, the clerk tried to assign my mom to be a farm labourer as she was Ukrainian. When she indicated her education/skills matched up better to working for Toronto Hydro, this option was first resisted and then approved as a "waste of time as Hyrdo will never hire a Unkrainian". Hydro on the other hand, hired her.

Then there's the Canadian internments camps in WW1 and WW2 for Ukrainians, Jewish refugees, Germans, Italians and Japanese.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps#Italian_Canadian_Internment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Canadian_internment


There is also the turning away of a ship full of German Jews by Canada (and the US as well as Cuba) that the Nazis sent out to prove that other countries didn't want Jews either.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/01/17/none-is-too-many-memorial-for-jews-turned-away-from-canada/


Cheers
Cheers


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> Yet the person profiled in an article about Canada's Immigration minister making a tour of Russia to explain the application process plus it's criteria to hopefully have more Russians immigrate said he wasn't going to apply based on what his perception of the difficulty where large segments of the Asian world are applying regardless.
> 
> So there are more factors at play here than you appear to want to look at.
> 
> ...


No, stats shows only numbers of allowed immigrants regardless of % of population.... it would be extremely stupid to bring immigrants as % of population as in this case almost all immigrants will be from 2 countries (india and China)  .
This is professional immigartion and I strongly believe that Russia professionals at least not worse that Phillipino or Indians ....
Canada immigration doesn't publish number of rejected applications... but knowing the country I can tell that a lot of people want to immigrate to Canada... it's not only rejections, but speed with application processing, some people wait 10 years until their application will be processed.... the numbers are just too unreasonable and this is ridiculous to accept 40% of immigarnt from only 2 countries...

_sending the Immigration Minister to tour Russia_ I didn't read about it, but may be something starting to change... maybe not only mylesf sent letter to Minister of Immigration


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

Eclectic12 said:


> So the slavery that was was legal in Canada until 1833 and included several First Nations that owned and/or traded in slaves *wasn't* racism?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Canada
> 
> ...


all good points ... no one nation or group can wag fingers ... we are experiencing a planetary awakening with regards to racism and slavery and so on .. some are getting it faster than others but it is an inevitability that it will decline over time since we are finding that we all want to travel and live wherever we want and marry whomever we choose

we are finding out that racism is a lie and it can't be sold anymore ... i think this is one of the pluses of the internet, we see that we are all fundamentally the same and moved by the same impulses, desires and fears

not that this will happen overnight


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_Change that to Canada-Russia visa-free travel; what would be the result then, you think same? Can't compare apples to oranges. 

_

Yes, pretty much the same... I lived in both countries and there is not a really big difference in level of life between Israel and Canada ... From List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita
Israel 34,770
Canada 43,472
Yes, it's higher in Canada , but if you exclude 20% of Arab israeli population, nembers will be pretty similiar... also, IMHO, life in Israel is cheaper than here... 
_Since you told us that you like EU much better, maybe you can switch places with your brother_ unfortunately, for my brother IT specialization there are no jobs in Canada....there are in Israel, GB, Finland, US... , but not in Canada 
Me and my wife seriously planning to get long term contract job in EU, AUS or NZ after our kids graduate from University


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_not that this will happen overnight_ I don't believe it gonna happen at all  Racism existed , exist and will exist...only it will be in diferent forms... this is just nature of humans


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

^ I agree.

Examples of racism past & present are endless. We could go on forever here. 

The simple fact is that racial intolerance exists in every corner of the planet & always will; the fact is also that racial intolerance is much higher in some countries.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> ^ I agree.
> 
> Examples of racism past & present are endless. We could go on forever here.
> 
> The simple fact is that racial intolerance exists in every corner of the planet & always will; the fact is also that racial intolerance is much higher in some countries.


it is true that intolerance is higher in some countries than others but we see that in countries where racial issues are being addressed and talked about, there is a gradual (very gradual) lessening of tension

migration and intermarriage is on the increase worldwide and as long as that continues, the end of racism is an inevitability 

the time horizon will be long and there will pockets of resistance, bit it will happen i believe over hundreds of years

the internet is a model, people identify on the internet by what they like, by what moves them and over time that will erode the old standby of racial prejudice i think


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

gibor said:


> IMHO, life in Israel is cheaper than here...


In the comparison, I wasn't just talking economics, and in any case, you left for a reason, lo?

I know some people that returned to their native countries in the EU, but couldn't return fast enough. But anyway, udacha in your future endeavours. You'll keep in touch with CMF, right? 

*fatcat:* I agree as well, except the part about the 'end of racism being an inevitability'. As you said, not in our lifetime anyway.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Toronto.gal said:


> In the comparison, I wasn't just talking economics, and in any case, you left for a reason, lo?


I knew you will ask it  We left (and majority of others) for reasons that N/A for illegal workers lol The major reason was that I didn't want my son to serve 3 years and daughter 2 year in army , running after Palestines on "controlled" territories.... at age 21-22 son will have here 2 degress and in Israel we would just return (if... ) from army. Also, we didn't like to live in country where marriges, divorces, deaths...are managed only be religious courts and so on.... I still ... I was financially better in Israel.... had so many benefits , you cannot even dream about it 
Aslo, for illegals it much more preferable to go to Israel: much closer, much warmer, you don't need to know any foreign language except Russian (about 1 mil in Israel speaks Russian), many employs illegal Palestinians for farming, construction.... and would prefer to pay more but have other illegals .... and major point  , white "hookers" are extremely popular in Israel...


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Toronto.gal said:


> You'll keep in touch with CMF, right?


Only if you still will be here


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

^ I didn't ask haver [for I already knew, as issues are same for a lot of people], I merely made a statement, so like I said, you can't compare apples to oranges.

As for the problem from ancient times [hookers], I knew that as well [and their origin]. 

Anyway, let's just be happy & kind wherever we live for life is short.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Donald Sterling is to appear tonight in an interview with Anderson Cooper on CNN. I heard some of what he said and he apologizes and says he is not a racist. Of course almost anyone who says they are not a racist is probably telling a lie especially him.

I also hear his wife wants her half of the team in an interview with Barbara Walters and I also heard she is going to sue.

http://www.thewire.com/national/201...fe-says-her-husband-may-have-dementia/362046/


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