# Margaret Wente on Retirement



## Square Root

Did anyone else read Margaret Wente column in Tuesday's G&M titled "Andy Rooney Had the Right Idea"? The gist of it goes something like this 
" retirement is a bad idea because you won't have enough to do or the money to do it with- so forget retirement and work till you drop". 
I have been retireed for 5 years and love it. Couldn't dissagree more with her conclusion. I believe most of the talk about wanting to work past a normal retirement age is caused by the lack of planning and the financial resources needed for such retirement. I think a lot of people are too proud to admit they don't have enough money to retire so come up with other reasons for extending their working lives? Obviously, there would be exceptions and probably being a writer like Wente (and Rooney) would lend itself to a longer working career.
What do you guys think? If you have enough money wouldn't most people like to retire early?


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## the-royal-mail

Definitely. The whole push to end mandatory retirement age is coming from the gov't and not because anyone else is asking for it. Retired people take money from gov't coffers while at the same time not paying anything in. The gov't doesn't like that and so by eliminating mandatory age they at least can't be told "but you said I _had_ to retire by x". They can essentially put the funding shortfall on our shoulders rather than theirs.

Personally speaking, retirement can't come soon enough for me. I have NO desire to prolong this any more than I have to. I think most people feel the same way but the gov't is fighting us on that. The article you mention benefits the gov't POV.


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## spirit

*Hi. Retirement is for a long long time, maybe*

Over 20 years ago my husband was forced to retire from his construction job because there was no work. He was 50, was eligible to retire and could always give up his pension when the jobs come back and go back to work. The trouble was the work did not come back for many years and so he retired by default. That was ok because I got back my part time teaching job after being a substitute teacher raising the kids. We role switched. He learned how to cook and I brought home the paycheck
His pension was $1000 clear 20 years ago and it was pretty decent. Nowadays the non colaed pension is not so good.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that for him retirement has not been that good emotionally. He has been retired 20 years and I know it feels more like 40 because he is set in his ways and does not like change. Maybe he was always like this but I did not notice it until I went part time
Seriously, even he said that if he would have known he would have lived so long he would have done things differently.
Whatever your money source you have now.....will it be adequate 20, 30, 40 years from now? We were lucky to have lived in a lower interest rate economy for the last 20 years. The next 20? Don't count on it.
I happen to agree with Rooney for one reason. You have a lot more control over your future when you have a steady income that keeps pace with inflation for as long as you can do it. JMHO guys.


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## Daniel A.

Being retired after 40 years of working seems to agree with me and I would not want it any other way.
I do just what I want nothing more nothing less.


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## Oldroe

Work is over rated.


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## Karen

I'm another one who absolutely loves being retired. I enjoyed my office manager job with the federal government very much, but I remarried in 2005 and, as my husband was retired, I decided I would quit work too at age 62. It was the best decision I could have made. I can't believe that for all those years I used to get up at 6:30 a.m. to get ready for work!


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## DanFo

I think for some people who have nothing to retire to... retirement becomes a death sentence..I've seen many retire from work and die within 5 years... but for people whom have always been in the public eye they my fear retiring and not having the status or the benefits of meeting "famous" ppl also their jobs are pretty cushy. For the average Joe who has been slugging their way through work for life and living with the daily BS of their workplace I think retirement can't come soon enough, some might delay it to get their kids through school but they would like to retire asap.


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## sags

Hand someone a decent pension and watch how fast they hit the road................


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## sags

I recently read an article on the "boomerang" generation.

In the 24-30 age group, over 70% of them still live at home. 

They have no ambition, don't want an entry level job, and cost their parents thousands of dollars a year in increased expenses.

They think they are "retired" already..........

But to be fair, the article also said it isn't a new phenomena. In fact, it has always been this way, with the exception being the boomer generation. The boomers got secure jobs, moved out and never went back. 

It all depended on the state of the economy.


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## Bullseye

For me, I'm happy to do some form of 'work' for pretty much as long as I'm able. What I want is freedom from career-type work that is stressful and time consuming. So as soon as I can afford* to quit the career (by 45 at the latest, 35 now), I will transition to other work that I find enjoyable and rewarding. I have some small business ideas and job interests along the lines of bike mechanic, adventure guiding, alternative energy, writing non-fiction, etc. 

* 'afford' to me means mortgage paid off, and enough income from savings to cover basic costs ($15k-20k per year). Any income from my post-retirement 'work' will be for luxuries such as travel, dining out, home improvement, etc. At this point, I am not willing to trade longer career work for these luxuries. If I can't make enough to afford them on my other work, I will just do without them, knowing I am doing ti by choice.


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## kcowan

Square Root said:


> Did anyone else read Margaret Wente column in Tuesday's G&M titled "Andy Rooney Had the Right Idea"?





Wente said:


> Nobody is interested in getting filthy rich, or finding work they truly love, or making a difference in the world.


I guess this colours her perception of the world. She must have a limited circle of acquaintances. Maybe just other writers? I think Rooney found a calling that he truly loved. CBS tried to fire him and the listeners demanded his return. How is that for reinforcement? What about Warren Buffet or our Jimmy Pattison?


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## andrewf

SquareRoot, I can't help but think of the old idiom 'money can't buy happiness, but it sure helps!'

I agree that many boomers are delaying retirement because they can't look forward to the defined benefit pensions their parents had, yet they didn't bother to save much while the economy was on a roll. They kept their asset allocation too aggressive, and are now finding their planning retirement date receding into the distant future as their portfolios don't rise by 10% a year as scheduled. So when forced to pick between a reduced lifestyle over the rest of their life or more time spent working, they are opting for the latter.


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## Square Root

andrewf said:


> SquareRoot, I can't help but think of the old idiom 'money can't buy happiness, but it sure helps!'
> 
> I agree that many boomers are delaying retirement because they can't look forward to the defined benefit pensions their parents had, yet they didn't bother to save much while the economy was on a roll. They kept their asset allocation too aggressive, and are now finding their planning retirement date receding into the distant future as their portfolios don't rise by 10% a year as scheduled. So when forced to pick between a reduced lifestyle over the rest of their life or more time spent working, they are opting for the latter.


Yes. I agree. They then go on to say they really like working(doubtful) and would be bored in retirement. It has been my experience that a well funded retirement is anything but boring.


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## MoneyGal

I have been reading a lot of stuff on retirement in the U.S. lately. One of the things that I've found interesting is a report on how the image of retirement has really shifted in the U.S. 

In the past few decades, retirement has been portrayed as "total leisure" - walking on the beach, sailing, golfing. But those images of retirement no longer resonate for the people who are the targets of retirement income messaging, for a couple of reasons:

- underaccumulators (as AndrewF describes) feel resentful that the implied promise of total leisure won't be fulfilled for them, so those images just piss them off. 

- classic accumulators have never been interested in total leisure, so those images do not resonate for them or cause them to actually "save for retirement" - because retirement defined as total leisure wasn't something they were ever going to do anyways. 

For the classic mid-career accumulator (actually called MCAs in retirement-planning lingo), retirement has become a way to shift your interests and scale down work. So retirement doesn't equal "walks on the beach," but it does equal "volunteering for causes I support" and "reducing the number of hours I work." 

Obviously on this forum we have people who span the spectrum of retirement planning personas - from people who hope to retire very early (40's, early 50's) to people who say "I can't imagine pulling back entirely; that doesn't appeal to me - I'm going to be working for pay well into my 70's" [I'm in that category]. 

And we have people who want the "total leisure" retirement, and people who would be happy and satisfied with something different. 

Not sure where I'm going with this, except to say there is no static "retirement" phase or stage of life that people are either ready for or not. Retirement means very different things to different people, depending on their preferences and personalities. 

I think Wente's piece was somewhat inflammatory because she used easy stereotypes rather than grappling with retirement as a more subtle and shifting concept.


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## Square Root

Good post, MG


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## MoneyGal

Thanks, SR! I really should start blogging again.


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## Sampson

MG, I have a question (raises hand).

Do the studies define what the classic accumulators are accumulating for? They just hoard money? without plans of actually spending it on lavish beach life etc? but they also don't want to work throughout like the MCAs?


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## MoneyGal

I should break down the categories a little better. 

You have accumulators and coasters, in mid-career and late-career. 

In the past, the "late-career" accumulators would have been considered "pre-retirees." But they no longer see themselves in this way. 

For late-career accumulators - own home, little or no debt, retirement savings in place, spend less than they make - money is for independence and control. They are "in the driver's seat." 

They may not want to retire - defined as "total leisure" - but they want the capacity to drive their own lives - that is what saving is for, and that is what living below your means provides.


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## marina628

My husband's early retirement lasted 4 months before he was bored enough to go to work for a day a week.Then he took up cooking ,he was always a good cook but now I think Chef is more appropriate title ,he may not earn as much anymore but he saves us a bundle because he serves gourmet food at home so we dont have to spend $100+ each week on dinners out.He also cooks during the week for our daughter who no longer lives at home and sends her home on weekends with frozen gourmet entrees.
I love my job and practically I can afford to retire but I work from home and can work as much or as little as I want to.Honestly I can see myself working til i die too .We do the Florida family trip at xmas , a cruise for hubby and i in march/April and my work requires me to go to UK and Malta once a year.From May to October we have our cottage open and a boat ,I cram my work in 3 days so i can have 4 days off in summer weeks.If I had a hard physical job I probably would not feel this way


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## andrewf

For anyone who reads Wente, it comes as no surprise that she is an intellectually incurious blowhard. For someone who claims to not want to retire, she seems to just phone it in.


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## andrewf

Marina, I hope your husband is also teaching your daughter to cook. I knew many people at university who came back every Sunday night with a load of tupperware containers, containing all their meals for the week. Some of them felt trepidation boiling water for pasta. It seemed like a failure of parenting to send your children out into the world unable to perform basic domestic chores (same children had mom pick up dirty clothes, drive 1+ hr home, washed, dried, folded and returned the next day).


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## Bullseye

Square Root said:


> Yes. I agree. They then go on to say they really like working(doubtful) and would be bored in retirement. It has been my experience that a well funded retirement is anything but boring.


Or even a not well funded one, if you have the lots of interests that don't require money.


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## Daniel A.

Life has a way of getting in the way of all the planning.
Most of the people out there don't have the luxury of picking and choosing there work hours, your either in or out.

I've seen many cases of older workers beginning to have medical issues and in most cases it starts after age 50 then the regret sets in if they could leave the work world they would but never considered having major medical issues.

This is more common than some think the C word has a way of changing ones outlook on which way they wish to spend there time.

I retired at 56 healthy, have many interests and no desire to live by the rules of work.


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## marina628

Andrew my daughter was 5 years old when I had my accident ,She has been doing things at home since she was about 12 .She does all the laundry and cooking at home on weekends to give her Dad a break


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## sags

Interesting that after decades of in-depth analysis of the concept of retirement, including Freedom 55, boomers invading the Sunshine States, and leaving a huge inheritance to their kids, it couldn't have been more wrong. Instead we have people having to work past 65, the Sunshine States in a housing and tourism shamble, and the kids are going to have to chip in for mom and dad.

So much for analytics.


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## sags

GIven the statistics of young people staying home until later years, anyone else think we may see a trend emerging towards generations living in the same home? All the family members, each paying for their own accomodation etc, may be a thing of the past.........dictated by financial considerations. Maybe there wont be as much downsizing in housing as some people predict.


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## Square Root

Interesting posts, Sags. We seem to understand some of the major factors but not necessarily the impact they will have. Multi- generational housing may very well become a trend. Longer retirements were supposed to be the norm. Maybe not?
As an aside I think maybe only boring people get bored in retirement?


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## Bullseye

Square Root said:


> As an aside I think maybe only boring people get
> bored in retirement?


Agree. Regardless of income, if you have no substantial interests outside of work that will keep you busy, you'll not enjoy retirement much.


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## andrewf

I think multigenerational housing is only to be expected with higher housing costs.


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## marina628

Don't encourage your kids to live at home , I have nieces and nephews that lived at home until 30 and they are no further ahead than the ones that moved out at 19 IMO .


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## jcgd

What motivation would there be? You get to live for dirt cheap, everything done for you. That usually doesn't push people to be independent.

I have a few friends from high school who had parents who paid their way through everything, material objects being the biggest expenses. They still live at home (at 23) and haven't done much for themselves yet. They simply don't know the value of money and go through the same revolving door - move out, run out of money, move back in. Rinse and repeat.

My parents treated me very well also, but if I wanted items I had to earn them. Big ticket items, such as a new guitar, I would have to pay for 100%, but they would finance me. I usually had to pay the interest as well so I learned early on that things don't come cheap.

If I tried to move home now my parents would laugh at me. They might put me up for a few week if I really needed it, but moving back in is definitely out of the question.


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## andrewf

marina628 said:


> Don't encourage your kids to live at home , I have nieces and nephews that lived at home until 30 and they are no further ahead than the ones that moved out at 19 IMO .


Yup. I worked with a guy who lived at home until 31. All he had to show for it was a riced up RSX. People with no discipline will waste all that money. People with discipline can build a lot of wealth.


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## marina628

I really believe the best lessons we learn is when it is our problem to keep a roof over our heads and the food in the cupboards.My husband and i scraped together first and last and bought $1200 in furnishings on a brick card in feb 1986 , we had a year to pay that off and save some money to get a car.Having to live on $50 a week between the two of us taught us so many lessons and I know we would not have the things we have today without having to live through the rough times.


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## kcowan

jcgd said:


> If I tried to move home now my parents would laugh at me. They might put me up for a few week if I really needed it, but moving back in is definitely out of the question.


Our friends are just downsizing out of their big acreage home into a downtown condo. Not only will it be easier for them, their 2nd born son will no longer have his room to come home to!


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## jcgd

Haha. I was told my room would be there for four years if I wanted to move back. Eight months later my room was a workshop.


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## bgc_fan

Just a point about boomerang children and related issues about adult children not moving out of their parents' house. It is a cultural thing that seems to be more of a North American issue. There are quite a few cultures (asians, Greeks, Italians), where it is fairly standard to have multi-generational house holds. Having the grandparents around help out with the child rearing take a load of work off of the parents. 

In fact, in these types of cultures, you tend not to have boomerang children, because the parents try to make sure they never leave.

Of course, these are in the more traditional families, not those who are "North Americanized".

Regarding the working until retirement, I've you've read "Die Broke", they advocate that philosophy. For the most part it is a pay-as-you-go type of philosophy. If that lifestyle interests you, you should take a gander, if not, it's an interesting read.


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## financialnoob

MoneyGal said:


> Thanks, SR! I really should start blogging again.


I think a lot of us really loved that suggestion. 

As bgc_fan also mentioned, it isn't always just a generational thing so much as a cultural thing.

I also think the recent state of the economy hasn't helped. Is it really any worse than the earlier 2000s, or during the 90's recession?

As for Wente, I don't even know why people bother reading...


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## Oldroe

Fail to plan,Plan to fail.

I watched 100's of guys retire. The one's that failed never had any outside interest, never thought about retiring until 1 day they retired. Most started staying up all night sleeping all day and just never had a schedule.

My first priority was a schedule, always was early riser and 10 0'clock bed. The next was no job for 1 year. I kept cleaning the basement for my boredom job.

4 years after retiring at 50 basement looks worst than the day I retired, still rise about 5 - 5:30 bed by 10 do most of the house work. Nothing with a schedule will fit my schedule so Work is over over RATED.


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## Financial Cents

sags said:


> Hand someone a decent pension and watch how fast they hit the road................


Absolutely.


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## Jon_Snow

Once my wife and I decided that starting a family wasn't something we wanted, everything shifted towards the concept of early retirement/financial independance. Immediate goals are eliminating debt, which consists of a 90k mortgage, and continuing to spend less than we make. In 5 years (or less) I should be able to exit my meat-grinder job. Currently on holidays in Mexico, I have spent a fair bit of time running financial projections 5 years out, to see where I will be at 45... barring a job loss for either myself or my wife, there is no reason why we can't do it.

I agree that it is essential to have a well rounded life outside of work in order for retirement, especially early retirement to work... I can honestly say that of all the aspects of my life, my job is the least fulfilling. The best thing I can say about my job is that it keeps me fit and provides me with the funds I will need to walk away from it in a few years. I am almost at the point where I value time over money - and my job virtually robs me of all my time I would rather be spending doing other, more interesting things. 

Good for those who have found jobs and careers that give them fullfillment and happiness... but I am definitely not one of them.


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## RedRose

7 months ago I lost my husband and I am just finding out all the sources of income that I can receive. Because he was 63 he never received his OAS so that has gone to someone else. I guess in the Gov't pot. 
I will get mine at 65 I hope.
So far I enjoy working the odd day here and there and that suits me for now. Will see how I go on over the next 2 years to 65. If I wasn't so very casual at work I think I would have retired. 
Good thread with some good opinions on this.


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## andrewf

I thought surviving spouses were eligible for OAS?


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## RedRose

No OAS for me but I do get a % portion of my late husband's CPP.
OAS from what I understand stops at the death of the person.
My husband contributed for 35years and died at 63 so never got chance to claim his OAS.


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## steve41

As far as I know, everyone (each spouse) is entitled to their own OAS. Unless you are newly arrived to Canada... there is a sliding scale of OAS entitlements depending length of residency.


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## stardancer

If you are between 60 and 65, you may be eligible for Widow's Allowance through OAS. The amount you get would depend on your income. This is meant to tide widows and widowers over until age 65 when their own OAS kicks in.

See the following; table 5 is the widow's allowance
http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/isp/oas/tabrates/tabmain.shtml


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## Daniel A.

She is above those income numbers.


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## RedRose

Thank you for all this great information. You guys are amazing. I am glad I found this site.


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## cannon_fodder

count me in for consideration that work is overrated. My wife and I are in our mid 40's and will be unofficially retired this week. 

I'm so looking forward to having each and every day prioritized by me rather than some company which makes asinine decisions based solely on accountants' numbers.

and fortunately for my wife and I we are very happy with the idea of spending much more time in each other's company.


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## pwm

*If you like it, then keep working.*

I quit at 55 after 35 years in an office job. I was counting the days until I was a free man. I really would have preferred to work another 5 years, I just could not work there anymore. I was an IT tech specialist which entailed being on call with a pager 24 X 7 X 365, working every weekend, not getting vacation, and enduring constant worry over the critical systems I was responsible for.

If I had had a "9 to 5" job that I could forget about after leaving the office, and had gotten some respect from management for my knowledge and experience, then I would have stayed much longer. So to summarize, if you like your job, then why not stay? I hated mine!


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## Rusty O'Toole

Margaret Wente can kiss my ***. Why would you want to retire when your so called job consists of collecting a salary for sitting on your *** with your feet up on the desk shooting your mouth off about things you know nothing about?


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## Square Root

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Margaret Wente can kiss my ***. Why would you want to retire when your so called job consists of collecting a salary for sitting on your *** with your feet up on the desk shooting your mouth off about things you know nothing about?


Actually that describes quite a few of us on this site ( other than the salary)


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## avrex

Just thought I would reopen this interesting thread


Square Root said:


> ...Margaret Wente column in Tuesday's G&M titled "Andy Rooney Had the Right Idea"? The gist of it goes something like this
> " retirement is a bad idea because you won't have enough to do or the money to do it with- so forget retirement and work till you drop".
> Couldn't dissagree more with her conclusion.


Hey, some people (including several that responded to this thread) have a lot of interest in their work and enjoy it very much.
Perhaps there are others who couldn't see themselves doing anything else or have no other interests outside of their work. 
And yes, I'm sure there is also a segment of the population where, financially speaking, they will need to work beyond 65 (but not because they want to).

Personally, I have a lot of interests outside of work, that I can't cram into a weekend.
Therefore, *I'd like to retire as early as I can*.

Here are some of my favourite quotes from the above thread.



Square Root said:


> If you have enough money wouldn't most people like to retire early?





Oldroe said:


> Work is over rated.





sags said:


> Hand someone a decent pension and watch how fast they hit the road................





andrewf said:


> I can't help but think of the old idiom 'money can't buy happiness, but it sure helps!'





Daniel A. said:


> I retired at 56 healthy, have many interests and no desire to live by the rules of work.





Jon_Snow said:


> ...and my job virtually robs me of all my time I would rather be spending doing other, more interesting things.





Jon_Snow said:


> Good for those who have found jobs and careers that give them fullfillment and happiness... but I am definitely not one of them.



Here's another article, where the author also disagrees with those who think like Wente. 
The Semi-Retirement Myth - Don’t buy into the tales of meaningful work into your 70s.

He notes an article where "a 70 year old chooses to work a nine- or 10-hour day” and the Wall Street article, “A Retirement Age of 100? It’s Coming.” He goes on to say,


> Welcome to the latest in retirement porn. These articles, showcasing happy, fulfilled working seniors, are just another fairy tale...


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## Eclectic12

sags said:


> Hand someone a decent pension and watch how fast they hit the road................


I recall the article that looked at IBM giving pensions to get people to retire and then despite having a good pension - they went back to work when IBM came calling to say none of the current generation had anything close to to their skill set. So YMMV.




sags said:


> I recently read an article on the "boomerang" generation.
> 
> In the 24-30 age group, over 70% of them still live at home ...
> 
> But to be fair, the article also said it isn't a new phenomena. In fact, it has always been this way, with the exception being the boomer generation. The boomers got secure jobs, moved out and never went back.
> 
> It all depended on the state of the economy.


I'm not so sure ... grandparents on both sides of the family left home well before 24 - some for opportunity and some for adventure. 




Square Root said:


> ... They then go on to say they really like working(doubtful) and would be bored in retirement. It has been my experience that a well funded retirement is anything but boring.


I know of several people with well funded retirement who only want to work (i.e. no hobbies, no interests) and at minimum are working at projects that interest them or are working a couple of days a week. Some can't seem to get away from living to work.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12

avrex said:


> Just thought I would reopen this interesting thread ...
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to the latest in retirement porn. These articles, showcasing happy, fulfilled working seniors, are just another fairy tale...
Click to expand...

It's the same as investing or many other things ... the few will have it fall into their lap - for the rest, it will depend on what they have prepared for and the opportunities they leverage. No planning and/or no imagination is going to limit the possibilities.

That said ... I have too many interests and other ways to supplement income to bother with working. Friends of my parents, on the other hand, have a consulting company in post-retirement where they pick what to bid on and what to accept, depending on what they want to do.


Cheers

Cheers


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## GPM

*My Experience*

I was self employed, loving it and would have worked until my first heart attack. I'm creative and have lots of interests. I was forced into retirement at 40 by a disability, (physical instead of mental), but enough to not be able to work at anything. Six years later, you couldn't get me back to work fast enough. My wife is the same. Self employed, most of her colleagues past 65 (even 70) and absolutely none, including herself have any interest in retiring. All with satisfying lives. Her date is 65 minimum. Watching family and friends, everyone who wanted/wants to retire early is working for the man instead of for themselves. Just my opinion though, not meant to ruffle feathers. My dad loved his early retirement, and if you can fill your time usefully and enjoy it, go for it!


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