# truckers....diesel.......pollution?



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

I may have missed, because I'm tuning out the news lately...
But, I don't think I've heard a word about all the pollution these protests must be generating, with their big rigs running 24/7 for days, weeks on end.
I think what we need is a bunch of those Greta-type climate change types to come in and start counter-protesting the trucker protestors. That would be fun. They REALLY know how to run a protest!


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

I would like to see someone walking towards Parliament Hill with a couple of gas cans on a random day and see hoe long it would be before RCMP has then flat on the sidewalk asking a bunch of questions.

I cannot believe that police are allowing all the gas cans I see in the pictures of the event to go in.

Freezing them out without refills would be the fastest way to cripple the protesters.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

"This (pause) has (pause) to stop (pause)." is just not strong enough. good grief!
Neither is the increased fines...they'll never be paid ( or it'll come from the gofundme money).


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

So who's complaining about high gas prices? Somebody keeps buying and just burning it for nothing.

I'm guessing one of those anonymous donors may be Exxon.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Tostig said:


> So who's complaining about high gas prices? Somebody keeps buying and just burning it for nothing.
> 
> I'm guessing one of those anonymous donors may be Exxon.


 ... Exxon and the likes shareholders will be happy. No wonder oil & gas prices are enjoying dancings on the roof.

Has anyone thought about alternative transport mode - like railways to bypass the polluting idiots?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

jargey3000 said:


> "This (pause) has (pause) to stop (pause)." is just not strong enough. good grief!
> Neither is the increased fines...they'll never be paid ( or it'll come from the gofundme money).


 ... of course not, getting one is considered "a badge of honour for his grandkids" said one of the hooligans. Talk about hate in the making with no shortage of a (world)-war. Humans' way of self-annihiliation.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

jargey3000 said:


> I may have missed, because I'm tuning out the news lately...
> But, I don't think I've heard a word about all the pollution these protests must be generating, with their big rigs running 24/7 for days, weeks on end.
> I think what we need is a bunch of those Greta-type climate change types to come in and start counter-protesting the trucker protestors. That would be fun. They REALLY know how to run a protest!


These guys know how to run a protest.

The other protestors tend to collapse or fold after a few days, even with government support.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Those guys want blockade? I say give them lock-down. Have the police mechanics disconnect and take away their truck batteries. Search their vehicles for weapons and human shields. Build barriers around their protest sites like what they did at the 2010 G20 in Toronto. Allow only water and bread to get through. And in a month, they'll be begging to get out for a beer and a haircut.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Wasn't the conversation not allowed on cmf?

And tostig, you mean for humans?
Hiding a human kind of defeats the purpose. Pretty hard to use a person as a shield if they are sitting hidden in a truck, isn't it?

I think people simply lost any shreds of common sense that society had left in it.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Wasn't the conversation not allowed on cmf?


no, that is on the CBC website, when they run articles on the protests...no "Comments" sections


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Tostig said:


> Those guys want blockade? I say give them lock-down. Have the police mechanics disconnect and take away their truck batteries. Search their vehicles for weapons and human shields. Build barriers around their protest sites like what they did at the 2010 G20 in Toronto. Allow only water and bread to get through. And in a month, they'll be begging to get out for a beer and a haircut.


Reminds me of the movie where a bunch of bikers rolled into the Bronx in NYC and went into a bar.

They didn't realize the bar was a front used by a mafia group as their headquarters, and when they became beligerant the head mafia guy came over and calmed them down and said they could have a beer on the house and then move on.

When the leader of the bikers said they would move on when they decided to move on, the mafia guy goes over to the door and locks it shut.

He turns to them and says......now you can't leave.

The back door opens and a bunch of mafia guys come out. 

It didn't end well for the bikers.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Factbox: Countries making COVID-19 vaccines mandatory


Governments have been making COVID-19 shots mandatory for health workers and other high-risk groups, pushed by a sharp upturn in infections caused by the Delta variant and a slowdown in vaccinations, as well as the new Omicron variant.




www.reuters.com


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Factbox: Countries making COVID-19 vaccines mandatory
> 
> 
> Governments have been making COVID-19 shots mandatory for health workers and other high-risk groups, pushed by a sharp upturn in infections caused by the Delta variant and a slowdown in vaccinations, as well as the new Omicron variant.
> ...


Just cause something is popular, doesn't make it right.
We've got a long history of human rights abuses that were considered okay in their time.

Medical abuse in particular is still occurring here in Canada.
The committee says it is aware of a case of forced sterilization as recent as in 2019.








Indigenous women still forced, coerced into sterilization: Senate report | Globalnews.ca


Women interviewed for the report were coercively sterilized between 2005 and 2010. The committee says it is aware of a case of forced sterilization as recent as 2019.




globalnews.ca





The fact that anyone thinks forced medical procedures is acceptable is beyond disgusting to me.
At least Alberta and BC stopped making forced sterilization MANDATORY in the 70's

Think about it, a generation ago it was considered normal, appropriate and was law to force unwanted medical procedures on people. I thought we moved past it, but it seems we haven't.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

There seems to be lots of bravado.

Might not be as much if some find that they cannot renew their licenses without paying the ticket fine(s). Or if any of the ticket violations end up on a driver's abstract report. Could impact employment and/or future insurance premiums.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Well, clearly there are still people willing to make individual sacrifices for their children and to protect human rights.
That is encouraging. A shame there is so few of them, and that's why you had residential schools and forced sterilizations in Canada, but a small group is better than nothing


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

sags said:


> Reminds me of the movie where a bunch of bikers rolled into the Bronx in NYC and went into a bar.
> 
> They didn't realize the bar was a front used by a mafia group as their headquarters, and when they became beligerant the head mafia guy came over and calmed them down and said they could have a beer on the house and then move on.
> 
> ...


I wish our guy in the suit (& socks) was more like this guy in the suit:


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Just cause something is popular, doesn't make it right.
> We've got a long history of human rights abuses that were considered okay in their time.
> 
> Medical abuse in particular is still occurring here in Canada.
> ...


Do you realize this is a pandemic?

Human rights? You mean individualism at its best.

What's more important, the rights of an individual or the rights of a whole society?

Unvaccinated people filling the hospitals, meaning healthcare workers getting exhausted, meaning some other people don't get treated because people with COVID get prioritized. People don't see the bigger picture of the repercussions of their actions.

You can't get out of a pandemic with individualism, we need collectivism. People needs to think for the greater good of the society, not their own individualistic greater good.

And they thought they would be heroes and make friends by blocking the Ambassador bridge, threatening $700 millions of trades and the jobs of the people related to those trades?


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

If you vaccinated 100% of people in Ontario (you never will), the ICU numbers would drop by 3.8% of capacity.
Is it worth having country cohesion fall apart and breaking human rights over that? I don't think so.

And rights of individual are more important than rights of society. Every time in history, it is minorities that have their rights violated. Simply there being popular support for human rights violation is not an excuse to force medical procedure on people.
Are you really trying to claim there is no such thing as inalienable human rights?

'Greater good' has always been a reason for a genocide. Every single time


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Well, clearly there are still people willing to make individual sacrifices for their children and to protect human rights.
> That is encouraging. A shame there is so few of them, and that's why you had residential schools and forced sterilizations in Canada, but a small group is better than nothing


 ... looks more like the enablers of these folks are using the indifferent "residential schools" and "forced sterilization" argument to encourage the idiots who''re making ALOT OF INDIVIDUAL sacrifices by taking their kids to these useless rallies. Shouldn't the kids be in school? If not, how about home, protected with warmth instead of freezing their duffs and inhaling fumes?

No, instead the kids can suffer 'cause daddy and mommy wants to earn that "badge of honour" with a nice fine, bankruptcy or jail term, supposedly in the name of "freedom". And for whom exactly? Other sensible parents don't need their kids to be brainwashed by such nonsense.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> And rights of individual are more important than rights of society.


I'll want you to repeat that again the next time we have a pandemic like the Black Death and that there would be a treatment against it.



damian13ster said:


> 'Greater good' has always been a reason for a genocide.


Wow, things escalated quickly. Genocide? We're talking about vaccination and sanitary measures.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Understand the organizers' motives. Not the followers.

Understand the organizers' backgrounds and history.

Then follow the money trail.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> I'll want you to repeat me that again the next time we have a pandemic like the Black Death and that there would be a treatment against it.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, things escalated quickly. Genocide? We're talking about vaccination and sanitary measures.


No, we are not. We are talking about justifying violation of inalienable human rights for 'greater good'.
Canada has terrible history of human rights violation, single worst human right protection in developed world (only developed country in the world with "notwithstanding" clause on human rights), and therefore government can't be allowed to violate inalienable human rights such as voluntary consent to medical procedure


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> No, we are not. We are talking about justifying violation of inalienable human rights


You know, Canadians should have the right to have a *reasonable access* to health care services.

_The right to health for all people means that everyone should have access to the health services they need, when and where they need them._

So who's rights are getting violated when unvaccinated people are taking up the beds at the hospitals, while other people, vaccinated, without COVID, get their health care services postponed or deprioritized?


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

MrBlackhill said:


> Wow, things escalated quickly. Genocide? We're talking about vaccination and sanitary measures.


100% vaccination rate wouldn't stop the virus at this point nor would it empty the hospitals. The reasons it is still being pushed so hard are political.

I am totally for vaccines but the scapegoating has to stop. And it has to stop before things get even more out of hand.

If you really want to do something for the "greater good", start by banning social media algorithms which spread so much misinformation.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

MrBlackhill said:


> So who's rights are violated when unvaccinated people are taking up the beds at the hospitals, when other people, vaccinated, without COVID, get their health care services postponed?


Will you also mandate diets for fat people? I'm sure they take up extra beds in hospitals too. In fact, I seem to recall it's one of the factors which made covid outcomes worse.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

off.by.10 said:


> 100% vaccination rate wouldn't stop the virus at this point nor would it empty the hospitals. The reasons it is still being pushed so hard are political.
> 
> I am totally for vaccines but the scapegoating has to stop. And it has to stop before things get even more out of hand.
> 
> If you really want to do something for the "greater good", start by banning social media algorithms which spread so much misinformation.


I'm in full agreement with what you've said.

I can't agree more.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

off.by.10 said:


> Will you also mandate diets for fat people? I'm sure they take up extra beds in hospitals too. In fact, I seem to recall it's one of the factors which made covid outcomes worse.


Wait. I'm not saying that vaccines should be mandatory. But I agree with some jobs having mandatory vaccines.

For instance health care workers.








CMA reacts to decisions by Quebec and Ontario to not require mandatory vaccine requirements for health workers


The Canadian Medical Association (CMA) is disappointed by the decisions of the Quebec and Ontario governments to not require mandatory COVID-19 vaccination of health care workers. Three months ago, we joined our colleagues at the Canadian Nurses Association (CNA), in calling for mandatory...




www.cma.ca





About your example with fat people, they aren't filling up the beds all of a sudden and it's not as if it was an instantaneous trigger with a simple and free solution against it. And it's not contagious. Getting COVID is more direct, people get in hospitals within days whereas the vaccine solution is free, accessible and fast.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> You know, in the Canada Health Act, it says that Canadians have the right to have a reasonable access to health care services.
> 
> So who's rights are violated when unvaccinated people are taking up the beds at the hospitals, while other people, vaccinated, without COVID, get their health care services postponed?


Do you say the same for cancer patients, drunk drivers, obese, every other person ending up in hospital?
There simply isn't enough hospital places. And that's failure of government. Again. Getting 100% of people vaccinated would free up 3.8% of ICU capacity in Ontario. Unvaccinated are not overrunning healthcare system.

And voluntary consent to medical procedure is inalienable human right.
Ffs, people have right to refuse food and water - and that has 100% hospitalization rate.
You can't give anyone first aid without consent until they pass out.
You don't have right to force sterilization.

Voluntary consent to medical procedure is inalienable human right and will of majority is not enough to overturn it


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> And voluntary consent to medical procedure is inalienable human right.


Ok, then let's say that if you don't want vaccination, to be consequent, I guess that since you've refused a preventive treatment, why would you then want a curative treatment once you get COVID? Which means unvaccinated people getting COVID wouldn't be prioritized when they need hospitalization, right? Would that make sense? I would agree with that. No pressure on unvaccinated people, it's their choice to refuse the preventive treatment, but, to be consequent, don't go to hospital afterwards for a curative treatment.

After all, the medical procedure for the curative treatment is much worse than the medical procedure for the preventive treatment. So I guess that if you don't want one, you don't want any.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> Ok, then let's say that if you don't want vaccination, to be consequent, I guess that since you've refused a preventive treatment, why would you then want a curative treatment once you get COVID? Which means unvaccinated people getting COVID wouldn't be prioritized when they need hospitalization, right? Would that make sense? I would agree with that. No pressure on unvaccinated people, it's their choice to refuse the preventive treatment, but, to be consequent, don't go to hospital afterwards for a curative treatment.
> 
> After all, the medical procedure for the curative treatment is much worse than the medical procedure for the preventive treatment. So I guess they if you don't want one, you don't want any.


Because you have a right to give voluntary consent to whatever medical intervention you choose, and you have a right to refuse voluntary consent to whatever medical information you choose.
So no. It isn't a 'tied deal' and no, it doesn't make sense.
Same as treatment for cancer or diabetes, or any other disease can't be refused simply because patient didn't take all precautions to prevent the sickness.
I don't understand why it is a hard concept to grasp


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Same as refusing treatment for cancer or diabetes, or any other disease can't be refused simply because patient didn't take all precautions to prevent the sickness.


Cancer is contagious? Diabetes is contagious? Which precautions can you take that will have a major impact on your probability to get cancer or diabetes?

I don't get the comparison.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Do you realize this is a pandemic?


Yes, I do.
Do you remember me calling out the government over their pulling and fearmongering on the AZ vaccine?



> Human rights? You mean individualism at its best.
> 
> What's more important, the rights of an individual or the rights of a whole society?


Both must be balanced.



> Unvaccinated people filling the hospitals, meaning healthcare workers getting exhausted, meaning some other people don't get treated because people with COVID get prioritized. People don't see the bigger picture of the repercussions of their actions.
> 
> You can't get out of a pandemic with individualism, we need collectivism. People needs to think for the greater good of the society, not their own individualistic greater good.


What does that have to do with the actual position and concerns of the protestors?
Who has met with them to understand what their concerns actually are?
Do you realize that many of the protestors are vaccinated?

When you can oppress and harm a group, for "the greater good" without respect for their rights, that's a problem.
The actions of government, in my opinion, crossed the line from "protecting people" to being oppressive when they pulled EI from those fired for refusing a medical procedure.
I think in most cases people should get vaccinated, but it should ALWAYS remain a choice. 




> And they thought they would be heroes and make friends by blocking the Ambassador bridge, threatening $700 millions of trades and the jobs of the people related to those trades?


I think after being ignored for almost 2 weeks in Ottawa, they're simply trying to get the governments attention so they can make their position known.


Most of the world has or is in the process of dropping some or all of the restrictions, because many experts feel that they no longer offer a net benefit. There are millions of Canadians, including many of our elected officials who feel this way. The fact that the government is unwilling to even discuss the issue with these protestors is a problem.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Voluntary consent to medical procedure is inalienable human right and will of majority is not enough to overturn it


I think so, but our government and courts disagree.

The fact that the government can force or coerce you to undergo a medical procedure, not for your benefit, but for the "benefit of society" is horrifying.
So lets sterilize a few undesirables, that's good for society too right?

Also the whole idea of vaccinating for public good is the idea that vaccination slows spread, which is apparently no longer the case, 90% of the population is vaccinated and the last wave still spread like crazy. The public health arguement doesn't hold water.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> Cancer is contagious? Diabetes is contagious? Which precautions can you take that will have a major impact on your probability to get cancer or diabetes?
> 
> I don't get the comparison.


Ahh, so moving the goalposts again?

No longer about taking up hospital beds, refusing medical care, violation of inalienable human rights?
Now back to infections, against which vaccines provide extremely poor protection that goes to pretty much 0 after 4 months? (real world studies showing anywhere from -30% to +10%)


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

ian said:


> Understand the organizers' motives. Not the followers.
> 
> Understand the organizers' backgrounds and history.
> 
> Then follow the money trail.


Understand why the government is completely unwilling to listen to their concerns.

Much easier to attack and dismiss them and mislabel them.


I personally disapprove of and disagree with this protest (and most protests), but I can't help but see the double standard on how they're being treated.

Just because they're wrong doesn't mean they don't have the right to protest.
Unlike the destructive protests of the summer, these appear to be non destructive. Have they actually damaged a single statue? (putting a hat and Canadian flag on a statue isn't damage)


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Cancer is contagious? Diabetes is contagious? Which precautions can you take that will have a major impact on your probability to get cancer or diabetes?
> 
> I don't get the comparison.


Eat plant-based. But they won't like that either.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> I think so, but our government and courts disagree.
> 
> The fact that the government can force or coerce you to undergo a medical procedure, not for your benefit, but for the "benefit of society" is horrifying.
> So lets sterilize a few undesirables, that's good for society too right?
> ...


Well, Canada has worst human rights protection in civilized world.

Section 33 of the charter suspends sections 2, sections 6-15, and any sections that have to do with discrimination.
You could literally have Auschwitz in Canada be legal under current Charter if government wishes to do so.

If there was a protest to change the Charter, remove Section 33, and modify Section 1 - I would be right there


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> What does that have to do with the actual position and concerns of the protestors?
> Who has met with them to understand what their concerns actually are?


Initially, it was supposed to be a protest from unvaccinated truckers because the government wanted mandatory vaccination for truckers crossing the border. It wasn't supposed to be that big of a protest because 90% of truckers crossing borders are vaccinated.

But their protest got hijacked by people with other goals. Most simply don't even know why they are there, they are just followers.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> Initially, it was supposed to be a protest from unvaccinated truckers because the government wanted mandatory vaccination for truckers crossing the border. It wasn't supposed to be that big of a protest because 90% of truckers crossing borders are vaccinated.
> 
> But their protest got hijacked by people with other goals. Most simply don't even know why they are there, they are just followers.


Yeah, by people who want to drop mandates for everyone, not just the truckers.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Just because they're wrong doesn't mean they don't have the right to protest.


They definitely have the right to protest. But this is not a protest anymore, this is an insurrection.

You can't decide to block roads for two weeks, you can't decide to block cross-border trades.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

MrBlackhill said:


> Wait. I'm not saying that vaccines should be mandatory. But I agree with some jobs having mandatory vaccines.
> 
> For instance health care workers.


Yes, that's a totally different matter of course. Plenty of jobs have all kinds of restrictions, medical or otherwise, so adding this one is not a problem as long as it's reasonably justified. I find it justified for health care workers dealing directly with patients. Not so much for office workers of any field.

In an ideal world, we'd have grandfathered existing workers. But the situation being what it is, we can't exactly wait a generation.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Yeah, by people who want to drop mandates for everyone, not just the truckers.


 ... not "everyone (aka rest of the population = 90% of society)" agrees with these anti-vaxxers, anti-maskers, anti-social distancing, anti-laws, anti-government, anti-everything that doesn't cater to their whinies and whimps.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Yeah, by people who want to drop mandates for everyone, not just the truckers.


Do you believe in democracy?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Ahh, so moving the goalposts again?
> 
> No longer about taking up hospital beds, refusing medical care, violation of inalienable human rights?
> *Now back to infections, against which vaccines provide extremely poor protection that goes to pretty* *much 0 after 4 months? (real world studies showing anywhere from -30% to +10%)*


 ... which "real" world studies? The ones from the social media misinformation outlets that you keep spouting from?

Talk about the invisible Nazi in training.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Initially, it was supposed to be a protest from unvaccinated truckers because the government wanted mandatory vaccination for truckers crossing the border. It wasn't supposed to be that big of a protest because 90% of truckers crossing borders are vaccinated.
> 
> But their protest got hijacked by people with other goals. Most simply don't even know why they are there, they are just followers.


It was joined by people with a variety of concerns. 
it started as a mandatory vaccine requirement for one niche, and grew.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> They definitely have the right to protest. But this is not a protest anymore, this is an insurrection.
> 
> You can't decide to block roads for two weeks, you can't decide to block cross-border trades.


It's a protest, not an isurrection.
It's unacceptable to me, but blocking roads is typically permitted in Canada.

Also, much of the road blocking is being done by police.
Here in London city trucks are blocking off roads to stop the protesters from doing so.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> Do you believe in democracy?
> 
> View attachment 22792
> 
> ...


The first and third questions are not valid for polls, but it is irrelevant.

Not when it comes to violating human rights. Majority doesn't get to violate human rights of minority.
That's why human rights are inalienable. Precisely to protect individuals and minorities from abuse from the majority


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Do you believe in democracy?


Yes, but democracy has problems so we implement checks to try and minimize the worst of them.

We have generally subscribed to the concept of human rights as supreme specifically to prevent the tyranny of the majority. Also the recognition that when we let the majority violate the rights of a group, it's typically bad.

Go to examples are of course US slavery.
But what about Canada and our "democratic" genocide of native people, and forced sterilization of undesirables(as recently as just 2-3 years ago). Even in democracies we get it wrong sometimes. 




> View attachment 22790


I'd like to know the date on that.
It's pretty clear that today that COVID19 as a health care system overload isn't as critical as in the past.
Many estimates suggest a large number of Canadians have had COVID, and widespread restrictions are no longer a net benefit.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> The first and third questions are not valid for polls, but it is irrelevant.
> 
> Not when it comes to violating human rights. Majority doesn't get to violate human rights of minority.


 ... look who's talking - from 2 sides of the mouth ... Canada wasn't born yesterday. You only realize now that the self-made medicine doesn't taste that great afterall.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Much of the donations to the fund raising are coming in the form of bitcoins.

Most are anonymous or fake donors. I think foreign countries are stirring up the gullible to assault democracy.

Crypto is often used for criminal purposes of money laundering, terrorist funding, tax evasion, and fraudulent schemes.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> blocking roads is typically permitted in Canada.


What about occupying roads? They've literally been living on the public roads for the past two weeks. This is more than a blockage.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Yes, but democracy has problems so we implement checks to try and minimize the worst of them.
> 
> We have generally subscribed to the concept of human rights as supreme specifically to prevent the tyranny of the majority. Also the recognition that when we let the majority violate the rights of a group, it's typically bad.
> 
> ...


 ... then let the experts figure that out and do their job.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> What about occupying roads? They've literally been living on the public roads for the past two weeks. This is more than a blockage.


I think it's stupid, I don't think it should be allowed.

But you have to remember other blockades are allowed to exist for months or even years. Blockades are a normal and permitted part of Canadian protests.


The only reason there is such a "public outcry" here is because.
1. The Protestors position, if it was a different cause, like anti-oil, it would be allowed.
2. They're too darn effective. Other protests are generally less effective, and easily swept up when the authorities get tired of them.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> I'd like to know the date on that.


February 8, 2022


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Canadians won't tolerate their collective rights to be held ransom by a small splinter group of thugs directed by foreign entities.

It is long past time for the police to arrest people and drag them away. 

Start the arrests and the big talkers will scatter.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Canadians won't tolerate their collective rights to be held ransom to a small splinter group of thugs directed by foreign entities.
> 
> It is long past time for the police to arrest people and drag them away. Arrest a few and the loud mouths will run away.


Yes they will, where was the government stopping BLM riots wehre they were destroying public property.
Or the foreign groups protesting pipelines.

Face it, the problem they have here is the cause they're championing, not the boogeyman of 'foreign involvement"
Also I recall reading that 90% of the Go Fundme donors were Canadian.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Yes they will, where was the government stopping BLM riots wehre they were destroying public property.
> Or the foreign groups protesting pipelines.
> 
> Face it, the problem they have here is the cause they're championing, not the boogeyman of 'foreign involvement"
> Also I recall reading that 90% of the Go Fundme donors were Canadian.


Foreign involvement is a part of every single protest now.

I can donate to promote women's rights in Afghanistan. Can donate to save koala's in Australia. Can donate to Kazakh protesters against their government's oppression. Can donate to feed children in Africa. And others can donate to stop human rights violation in Canada.
This isn't going to change and no need to sensationalize it


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

People who are arrested will have their names gathered by US Homeland Security and be barred from the US permanently and placed on "no fly" lists.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> People who are arrested will have their names gathered by US Homeland Security and be barred from the US permanently and placed on "no fly" lists.


 ... are you serious? But then I wouldn't be surprised their names will show up on some list labelled as "terrorists" in the future. Even with masks, facial recognition works quite well these days.

At the same time, it's a "badge of honour" to be on one of these lists. LMAO.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... are you serious? But then I wouldn't be surprised their names will show up on some list labelled as "terrorists" in the future. Even with masks, facial recognition works quite well these days.
> 
> At the same time, it's a "badge of honour" to be on one of these lists. LMAO.


Will they be eligible for 10.5mln$ Trudeau terrorist payment plan then?


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Will they be eligible for 10.5mln$ Trudeau terrorist payment plan then?


 ... why? The need to double-dip? No, make that triple-dip ... start with GMF, then GSG...


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> Much of the donations to the fund raising are coming in the form of bitcoins.
> 
> Most are anonymous or fake donors. I think foreign countries are stirring up the gullible to assault democracy.
> 
> Crypto is often used for criminal purposes of money laundering, terrorist funding, tax evasion, and fraudulent schemes.


 ...hmmm ... time for SEC to look into this.


----------



## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

There are some inflammatory and extreme posts in this thread about genocide & Auschwitz, mainly from @damian13ster

Please avoid the extreme lingo. If there's more inflammatory talk (or attacks like in the old threads) I will have to close the thread.

Additionally, promoting or fundraising for illegal activities will result in a ban.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

moderator2 said:


> There are some inflammatory and extreme posts in this thread about genocide & Auschwitz, mainly from you @damian13ster
> 
> Please avoid the extreme lingo. If there's more inflammatory talk (or attacks like in the old threads) I will have to close the thread.


Just an explanation.
Those are not inflammatory. This is not a comparison to current situation by any means
Those are simply showing how inadequate Charter is in protecting human rights and how we are only civilized country in the world with "notwithstanding" clause on human rights.

The point was made though, and I will no longer point out what is legal under current canadian charter, and I will adhere to whatever suggestions you have


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## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

damian13ster said:


> Those are simply showing how inadequate Charter is in protecting human rights


Ok, fair enough


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I probably get banned the laptop class who don't tolerate people who take up space


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492601954639491077
"It's a very small group of people, but they take up space.. Do we tolerate these people?" Justin Trudeau

"Why do we tolerate these people?.. They take up space" Adolf Hitler


----------



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

OP here:....uh....how 'bout that pollution, eh?


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

jargey3000 said:


> OP here:....uh....how 'bout that pollution, eh?


Ehhh. Yeah, diesel has emissions. Nothing more to add.
Good discussion


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

jargey3000 said:


> OP here:....uh....how 'bout that pollution, eh?


Maybe there still isn't any counter-protesters because of pollution, but I've seen a few trucker protestations here in Quebec which were accompanied by counter-protestations

When there's protesters and counter-protesters, you know the situation has to come to an end before they start fighting each other in the streets.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> Understand the organizers' motives. Not the followers.
> 
> Understand the organizers' backgrounds and history.
> 
> Then follow the money trail.


Absolutely. IMO the groups (and main characters) are the real story of all this and the media has not covered it too well. CTV has a good piece on this, and there's some other coverage too, but it's largely gotten lost in the noise and confusion.

The "mandates" are a side-show and just a rallying cry -- a way to recruit bodies to join the circus. It isn't what the core organizers care about. The people behind this are far-right nuts who hate the government. They are extremists. Some want to see the government dissolved, others have even more extreme desires... and it doesn't have much to do with vaccination.



MrBlackhill said:


> When there's protesters and counter-protesters, you know the situation has to come to an end before they start fighting each other in the streets.


I suspect that this is what some of the organizers want (e.g. Pat King). I think it would be a dream come true, to have young angry people in Ottawa come to counter protest. Then they actually get to fight them, plus it creates the kind of chaos which anti-government extremists love.

For the organizers, another thing that clashes and drama achieves is enhancing divisions in society and contributing to more social instability. All of this helps tear down the legitimacy of government, towards the [far right's] fantasy of overthrowing the government.

All of these are well-known tactics of American far right extremists. And money for this is flowing in from the US.

It's sad that some people are duped by the talk of vaccination/freedoms and think they are joining a good cause. The well-meaning bystanders are actually being used as warm bodies (and human shields) in a right-wing extremist assault.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I also see that the far-right outlet Rebel News is covering all aspects of the "protest", with strong support for it. In their coverage they are also promoting an American law firm (based in Nebraska) to help truckers with legal problems arising from this, apparently free legal help.

Tons and tons of American money to fund and support illegal activities in Canada. Probably money from other foreign sources as well.

In any case, not Canadian money and not a Canadian agenda.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

james4beach said:


> Absolutely. IMO the groups (and main characters) are the real story of all this and the media has not covered it too well. CTV has a good piece on this, and there's some other coverage too, but it's largely gotten lost in the noise and confusion.
> 
> The "mandates" are a side-show and just a rallying cry -- a way to recruit bodies to join the circus. It isn't what the core organizers care about. The people behind this are far-right nuts who hate the government. They are extremists. Some want to see the government dissolved, others have even more extreme desires... and it doesn't have much to do with vaccination.
> 
> ...



Or maybe they are there to protest for the right cause - to drop all the mandates.
And won't be discouraged by media or yourself pointing out couple of morons to take away attention from the actual issue?

There was counter-protest today in Ottawa. It included communist flag. Does that mean all counter-protesters are far-left communists or unintelligent well-meaning bystanders used as warm bodies in a communist assault?


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Or maybe they are there to protest for the right cause - to drop all the mandates.


Those who support the right cause protest the right way, i.e. not by creating chaos and anger.

I was initially very open and all ears when I heard that some truckers would go protest in Ottawa. I wanted to hear their message and how they would communicate it. I was somewhat supportive, with a neutral-good perception because I agree with protesting.

But with the unfolding of the events, my perception went from neutral-good to very bad because it is not a civilised protest.

Also, this is a democracy, it's not because some people protest that they have to get what they wanted. It would be chaotic if people only had to protest to get want they want, like a spoiled child.

And even if you believe that "because the minority is 'right', then the argument about democracy doesn't hold", well, democracy should always hold, but then the minority should communicate in a civilised manner their arguments to open the eyes of the majority, so that they would slowly agree with them, and democracy would do its job as they change opinion and support the minority which wouldn't be a minority anymore. So far, it didn't happen.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Or maybe they are there to protest for the right cause - to drop all the mandates.
> And won't be discouraged by media or yourself pointing out couple of morons to take away attention from the actual issue?
> 
> There was counter-protest today in Ottawa. It included communist flag. Does that mean all counter-protesters are far-left communists or unintelligent well-meaning bystanders used as warm bodies in a communist assault?


 ... what makes you so sure that the guy holding the communist flag is a "far-left" "communist"? Did you ask him? Did he say so? For all we know he could be a far-rightist known as a sh1t-disturber, impersonating a far-leftist.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Beaver101 said:


> ... what makes you so sure that the guy holding the communist flag is a "far-left" "communist"? Did you ask him? Did he say so? For all we know he could be a far-rightist known as a sh1t-disturber, impersonating a far-leftist.


Just ignore him.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

fstamand said:


> Just ignore him.


 ... I could but then he keeps spewing about "freedom of speech" and "equal rights" here so let's practice what he preaches and spews at the same time.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Reminds me of the televangelist scam or the prosperity gospel con.

All the money is flowing one way. To the top. The only thing flowing down is empty promises.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I keep hearing about holding a "debate" about the protestors demand to remove all pandemic restrictions, but wonder how that is perceived to unfold.

On the one side there is the government and health authorities saying it is too early to remove all restrictions. We are still in a raging pandemic and they have a duty to protect "all" citizens, especially the most vulnerable to severe outcomes.

On the other side, they simply don't care. They want all restrictions removed come hell or high water, and don't care about the risk to vulnerable people. They rank "their" personal freedom and rights above those of the most vulnerable.

How would it be possible for a debate happen with those polar opposite sides. There doesn't appear to be any middle ground. The restrictions are either removed or they aren't.

The protest has further caused entrenchment of the governments, because if they cave into demands it will set a precedent for other protest groups making demands.

Maybe later a group demanding a UBI will take over Ottawa and close borders refusing to move until the government gives them what they want.

Capitulation by the government leaders would be a first step into rule by mob and anarchy.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> I keep hearing about holding a "debate" about the protestors demand to remove all pandemic restrictions, but wonder how that is perceived to unfold.
> 
> On the one side there is the government and health authorities saying it is too early to remove all restrictions. We are still in a raging pandemic and they have a duty to protect "all" citizens, especially the most vulnerable to severe outcomes.
> 
> ...


 ... so then how is this different from their accusation and resentment of Trudeau in providing the $10M "terrorist payment plan"?


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

ian said:


> Reminds me of the televangelist scam or the prosperity gospel con.
> 
> All the money is flowing one way. To the top. The only thing flowing down is empty promises.


 ... imagine, paying to be brainwashed. So smart and so clever. LMAO.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

sags said:


> I keep hearing about holding a "debate" about the protestors demand to remove all pandemic restrictions, but wonder how that is perceived to unfold.
> 
> On the one side there is the government and health authorities saying it is too early to remove all restrictions. We are still in a raging pandemic and they have a duty to protect "all" citizens, especially the most vulnerable to severe outcomes.
> 
> ...


Me myself and I. "Don't care about others or health care workers" And it's all fake news !!!


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Canada police arrest protesters in effort to reopen key bridge with U.S. | Reuters


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## hfp75 (Mar 15, 2018)

Well I am NOT going to read this whole thread.... its not worth my time. BUT since its about pollution, just think of all the electricity that we ALL WAIST running AC units ! All summer long we burn LOTS of electricity making air cold so we can just be more comfortable !!!! 

Looks like we are all guilty!! Sometimes it feels great to point a finger... but turn it back onto yourself.... we (humans) as a group... pollute.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Here in Ontario electricity is mostly pretty good from an environmental impact perspective. Most is totally carbon neutral and the part that isn't is NG which is the most carbon efficient fossil fuel. There's no coal generation at all. Same in Quebec, Manitoba and BC.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

jargey3000 said:


> I may have missed, because I'm tuning out the news lately...
> But, I don't think I've heard a word about all the pollution these protests must be generating, with their big rigs running 24/7 for days, weeks on end.
> I think what we need is a bunch of those Greta-type climate change types to come in and start counter-protesting the trucker protestors. That would be fun. They REALLY know how to run a protest!


I would just like to point out that Ottawa downtown isn't exactly a green paradise. Because there are no highways to go to and from Quebec, downtown Ottawa is regularly plugged with heavy trucking traffic, thousands a day, trying to make their way to Quebec through downtown, in addition to regular downtown truck traffic. Also the city is full of diesel buses as the light rail still fails weekly, Parliament hill with security vehicles that idle 24/7, and an open fossil gas flaring in the middle of Parliament hill. So while I understand the trucks make it noisier and perhaps more consistent exhaust issue, during the vast majority of the time it isn't worse than any other day.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I keep hearing about holding a "debate" about the protestors demand to remove all pandemic restrictions, but wonder how that is perceived to unfold.


Trudeau should go and talk to some representatives, like he did for other protests.



> On the one side there is the government and health authorities saying it is too early to remove all restrictions. We are still in a raging pandemic and they have a duty to protect "all" citizens, especially the most vulnerable to severe outcomes.


That's not true, several government and health authorities are removing restrictions.


> On the other side, they simply don't care. They want all restrictions removed come hell or high water, and don't care about the risk to vulnerable people. They rank "their" personal freedom and rights above those of the most vulnerable.


Also not true. They care a lot.
Actually I'd suggest they care MORE, since they're willing to take the time and energy and push for a change they want to see happen.
You're assigning a position to them that they don't necessarily hold. But it's much easier to demonize and misrepresent someone if you ignore their actual position.



> How would it be possible for a debate happen with those polar opposite sides. There doesn't appear to be any middle ground. The restrictions are either removed or they aren't.


First it's a discussion, not a debate, secondly they're not on polar opposite sides, they both want the best for society.
The fact that one side is refusing to even discuss the issues suggests they're the ones with the problem.



> The protest has further caused entrenchment of the governments, because if they cave into demands it will set a precedent for other protest groups making demands.


protests were very good at tearing down statues, renaming historical dedications etc.
Why wouldn't these protestors think they might get listened to. In the past the government gave protestors everything they wanted.



> Maybe later a group demanding a UBI will take over Ottawa and close borders refusing to move until the government gives them what they want.


Well since the current government supports that, I'd expect they'd be allowed to protest as long as they want, at least till the rest of us fall in line.



> Capitulation by the government leaders would be a first step into rule by mob and anarchy.


Yes, the governments capitulation to previous protests is exactly why they've continued.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

doctrine said:


> I would just like to point out that Ottawa downtown isn't exactly a green paradise. Because there are no highways to go to and from Quebec, downtown Ottawa is regularly plugged with heavy trucking traffic, thousands a day, trying to make their way to Quebec through downtown, in addition to regular downtown truck traffic. Also the city is full of diesel buses as the light rail still fails weekly, Parliament hill with security vehicles that idle 24/7, and an open fossil gas flaring in the middle of Parliament hill. So while I understand the trucks make it noisier and perhaps more consistent exhaust issue, during the vast majority of the time it isn't worse than any other day.


Living in the capital has a number of benefits. 
Piles of tax dollars and government funding flowing into the city, they get a lot of nice stuff at our expense.

Part of that justification is that they are a host city, and we're compensating them for that.
Well they host dozens of museums and events of national significance, hosting protests is as much their role as hosting the tulip festival.


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

sags said:


> Reminds me of the movie where a bunch of bikers rolled into the Bronx in NYC and went into a bar.
> 
> They didn't realize the bar was a front used by a mafia group as their headquarters, and when they became beligerant the head mafia guy came over and calmed them down and said they could have a beer on the house and then move on.
> 
> ...


That was the movie. In real life the mafia contracts the HA to do their hits.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

doctrine said:


> Because there are no highways to go to and from Quebec, downtown Ottawa is regularly plugged with heavy trucking traffic, thousands a day, trying to make their way to Quebec through downtown,


Maybe this will mess with finally put and end to the NIMBYism that is blocking the Kettle Island route. A link there from the 174 and 417 to the 148 and 50 has been the only logically possible option for decades and constantly blocked by a tiny minority of privileged folks in a posh neighbourhood -- who are not even very close to the route.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

gardner said:


> Here in Ontario electricity is mostly pretty good from an environmental impact perspective. Most is totally carbon neutral and the part that isn't is NG which is the most carbon efficient fossil fuel. There's no coal generation at all. Same in Quebec, Manitoba and BC.


This kind of thinking is so ignorantly self righteous

Those provinces still buy most of their stuff made by child labour and coal power and shipped around the world and commute alone in their SUVs idling in Tim Hortons lineups

You're not even close to being carbon neutral and we all live on the same planet anyways


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

m3s said:


> This kind of thinking is so ignorantly self righteous
> 
> Those provinces still buy most of their stuff made by child labour and coal power and shipped around the world and commute alone in their SUVs idling in Tim Hortons lineups
> 
> You're not even close to being carbon neutral and we all live on the same planet anyways


The point was about electricity. All other things equal, it's still much better to have electricity from carbon neutral sources. It's already one step in the right direction. Obviously, there's still much more to do when looking at other aspects of our daily life and I can't deny it, but at least electricity isn't. That's the point.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Retiredguy said:


> That was the movie. In real life the mafia contracts the HA to do their hits.


And HA contract their work out.
Old school organized crime tries to distance themselves, why risk your organization when some wannabe will do it cheap and with fewer repercussions for your?

It's not only big corporations who benefit from "gig work".


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Ontario announces end of vax mandates March 1
Is there any other province that will have them left after that date? BC?
All federal mandates have to fall before March 1.

If that happens then we got the end date for the protests. Until then, city of Ottawa and some border crossings have to hang in there.
And if Federals keep refusing the science and dig in - the city of Ottawa will face the protests for longer


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ No such thing as an end date for protests. Sh1t-disturbers will always have something to protest about.

I don't disagree there's a bright side to the endnig of the mandates (other than so called "freedom") - time for employees to be back at the office instead of hiding at home presumably working extremely hard, either spewing and/or venting on this forum.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Ontario announces end of vax mandates March 1
> ...


Ontario and other provinces were already planning to end restriction for March anyways. Ontario had been planning that since the fall and then the Omicron variant spread and new restrictions had to be put in place.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Tostig said:


> Ontario and other provinces were already planning to end restriction for March anyways. Ontario had been planning that since the fall and then the Omicron variant spread and new restrictions had to be put in place.


And Federal government still has no plan. Still has no metrics, still have no threshold. That's why the protests are justified and need to continue. If they claim decisions are based on science - provide the metrics and thresholds needed


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> And Federal government still has no plan. Still has no metrics, still have no threshold. That's why the protests are justified and need to continue. If they claim decisions are based on science - provide the metrics and thresholds needed


 ... what's the rush? Plus do they have to answer to the anti-everythingers?


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Two-thirds of Canadians ready to drop COVID-19 restrictions


Closing schools and airport arrivals testing are the restrictions that should be eliminated first, say respondents




nationalpost.com





Majority of Canadians believe those who are unvaccinated should not be pressured to do so.

Two-thirds of Canadians believe it’s time to drop COVID-19 restrictions and begin living with the virus, according to a new poll. 

The survey, conducted by Maru Public Opinion for Postmedia, revealed that 64 per cent of respondents believe that unless hospitals and intensive care units are affected by a sudden surge of COVID-19 patients that compromises the care of other people, governments should lift pandemic restrictions. 



Respondents living in Quebec (71 per cent), Alberta (65 per cent) and Ontario (65 per cent) were found to be the most likely to hold this view. Those who are least likely reside in British Columbia (48 per cent), Manitoba and Saskatchewan (41 per cent), and Atlantic Canada (39 per cent). 



John Wright, executive vice president of Maru Public Opinion, said that there is a general understanding that Canadians want fewer restrictions. He said considering the last six months of polling, nothing is surprising about this.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Two-thirds of Canadians ready to drop COVID-19 restrictions
> 
> 
> Closing schools and airport arrivals testing are the restrictions that should be eliminated first, say respondents
> ...


 ... it's funny that you conveniently left out the last part of the article, especially for someone who is so into numbers. 

_



... *Most epidemiologists agree that some mandates should stick around. *

Timothy Sly, professor emeritus of epidemiology at Ryerson University, said that vaccines and masking requirements should remain as top priorities. He said both getting vaccinated and wearing a mask are the best ways of preventing COVID-19. 

Also, testing and isolation when positive is “hugely important,” said Jha, because you do not want to infect others. 

As Canada moves towards treating COVID-19 as an endemic, and living with the virus, Sly said we will have to get used to living differently. What this means, we do not know yet, but he said wearing masks in crowded indoor areas and showing proof of vaccination or negative tests may become the norm. 

*“Releasing all of the precautions too soon is something we would probably regret enormously,” said Sly. “We must do it carefully and driven by data.”*

Click to expand...

_


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Epidemiologists are just one input, not the decision makers.

From epidemiological perspective alone the most beneficial thing would be to cement people who are infected in their own homes or shoot on the spot and burn the bodies.

There are significantly more factors at play than epidemiologists


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

damian13ster said:


> Epidemiologists are just one input, not the decision makers.
> 
> From epidemiological perspective alone the most beneficial thing would be to cement people who are infected in their own homes or shoot on the spot and burn the bodies.
> 
> There are significantly more factors at play than epidemiologists


Damian, at times you do have a way of cutting through the clutter and getting to the point of the matter.

I would have probably wrote a thesis long post and could not have made that point any better. Thanks.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Epidemiologists are just one input, not the decision makers.
> 
> From epidemiological perspective alone the most beneficial thing would be to cement people who are infected in their own homes or shoot on the spot and burn the bodies.
> 
> There are significantly more factors at play than epidemiologists


 ... so what was the point of your article or "focus"? The majority of the people you deem as the decision-makers then? LMAO. 

I don't care what for your view of the "epidemiologists" perspective here - other than complete nonsense unless you believe OptsyEagle was a practicing virologist giving his views instead that of a financial advisor.

Of course, there're more factors at play than epidemiologists as with the "majority" of the population.

*Bottomline: *Are the authoritarians (your definition and whom you love) ultimately the "decision-makers"?


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

I must say, I don't want the population itself to directly decide what we should do with the current situation. I want the population itself to decide that we should trust the experts to decide what we should do with the situation.

Experts: Epidemiologists, doctors, psychologists, etc.

I mean, when I go to the hospital, I want the *doctor* to tell me whether I should go back home and when should I go back home. I don't want this decision to be made by popular opinion.


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## cliffsecord (Jan 10, 2020)

I just want to chime in that, I find this discussion amusing and actually insightful at times. I can see both sides of the problem. I think also people need to understand that the solution isn't a simple one and that the balance is very difficult to achieve. Satisfying a group of people is hard, let alone a whole diverse country. If the convoy would have waited until spring then I don't think there would have been a convoy because restrictions would have naturally been eased and lifted.

What I don't understand is why people can't just wear a mask when going indoors. If you don't like it, then do your shopping faster or give Bezos some more of your money. I don't like it and my glasses fog up, but it's a small inconvenience. Heck, you can even cheat by wearing a paper thin mask. What matters is that the majority of the people wear masks, but if we don't mandate then people won't wear them. Otherwise, there would actually be more arrests for non-mask wearers. I think too that people mix up freedom with privilege.

What's not cool is harassing innocent people who choose to wear a mask. Also what's not cool is spewing out of data or wrong information (e.g. that the police are exempt from vaccines Fact Check-Ottawa Police are not exempt from COVID-19 vaccine mandates) and not changing their minds when they are proven wrong. That kind of hard stance indicates that they can't be educated or informed. I am overall getting very sad about the future of politics in Canada.

What's happening reminds me of this: Man charged after fiery argument over whether Earth is flat or round


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> I must say, I don't want the population itself to directly decide what we should do with the current situation. I want the population itself to decide that we should trust the experts to decide what we should do with the situation.
> 
> Experts: Epidemiologists, doctors, psychologists, etc.
> 
> I mean, when I go to the hospital, I want the *doctor* to tell me whether I should go back home and when I should go back home. I don't want this decision to be made by popular opinion.


You missed about 20 different experts that need to be listened to.

Sociologists, economists, logistics, child development, education..........


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> From epidemiological perspective alone the most beneficial thing would be to cement people who are infected in their own homes or shoot on the spot and burn the bodies.


And considering only one perspective is problematic.
There is that "cure disease by killing the patient" aspect.

Interesting the Childrens Show "Transformers Rescue Bots" has an episode on this (season 3, ep 6 I think) where the computers protecting the city put all the residents to sleep "for their own good".


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

damian13ster said:


> You missed about 20 different experts that need to be listened to.
> 
> Sociologists, economists, logistics, child development, education..........


Yeah, that's the thing. You can find experts to back pretty much any viewpoint. I mean why not start listening only to the global warming experts instead? Long term, they would probably improve our quality of life a lot more than all the virus obsessed experts which would have us wash our hands until the skin falls off.

We can't just "let the experts decide". We have to make a value judgment above it all. There's where some experts fail to understand that they can be right yet also be wrong.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

off.by.10 said:


> We can't just "let the experts decide". We have to make a value judgment above it all. There's where some experts fail to understand that they can be right yet also be wrong.


It's not about being right or wrong.

It's about making the correct trade offs. We choose representatives who hopefully do a pretty good job at making trade offs we can agree on. 
The problem is when they go too far off from what most of us think is reasonable.

I think these protests are just a few weeks ahead of where the majority of Canadians are going to be anyway. 
I think it is actual political incompetence that they're in the situation where they're pulling in the Emergencies act, and going hard against protestors, just as the other levels of government and most people are moving to the same position as the protestors.

2 weeks ago the protestor position was a minority, in 2 weeks it will be the majority opinion.

Trudeau should have done more to provoke a confrontation 2 weeks ago, when he had some public opinion on his side, or should just chill until March and let it fade naturally, by acting now he's just making a mess.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

off.by.10 said:


> We can't just "let the experts decide". We have to make a value judgment above it all. There's where some experts fail to understand that they can be right yet also be wrong.


Yes but a diversified group of experts can certainly make a better judgement call than the general population.

As an engineer, I can't make that call and my opinion brings no added value. Same for the electricians, plumbers, hairdressers, cashiers, cooks, actors, programmers, truckers, welders, notaries, influencers, cameramen, etc. But the impact on us can be studied by the experts.

The experts who have the skills to properly analyse the impacts of the situation can talk with each other and make that judgement call better than us about every factor to take into account according to each of their own expertise. They will gather data from us and other metrics.

Yes, sociologists, economists, psychologists, epidemiologists, doctors, etc.


----------



## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

MrBlackhill said:


> Yes but a diversified group of experts can certainly make a better judgement call than the general population.


The exact opposite is the basis of democracy.


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

off.by.10 said:


> The exact opposite is the basis of democracy.


We used democracy to vote for a government. The population doesn't vote for every single decision taken by the government. So it's the exact same thing.

We voted for a government... which takes decisions... which decided to rely on experts to help them with some of their decisions.


And most of the population agrees with that because the population used democracy to vote for a government that best fits their values, which means a government which would take decisions similar to what they would've done themselves (even though we obviously can't agree with everything). We've used democracy to vote for a government which we trust the most to take such a leadership role.

I'm definitely not saying that everything is perfect. It isn't. But this is a democracy.

List of experts on the science side:





__





COVID-19 Expert Panel - Science.gc.ca


The Chief Science Advisor of Canada (CSA) has assembled a multidisciplinary science expert panel to advise her on the latest scientific developments relevant to COVID-19. This information will assist the CSA in providing current and cross-disciplinary advice to the Prime Minister and government.




www.ic.gc.ca








__





Expert Group on Health Systems - Science.gc.ca


Canada’s Chief Science Advisor has assembled a multidisciplinary panel of experts on health systems and hospitals to provide practical advice to the federal government regarding health services needs and innovation.




www.ic.gc.ca








__





Expert Group on Modelling Approaches - Science.gc.ca


Objective: review modelling approaches to predict and manage disease spread, and identify hot spots in provinces and territories, as well as recovery strategies, data accessibility and data gaps.




www.ic.gc.ca








__





Long-Term Care and COVID-19 - Science.gc.ca


Report of a special task force prepared for the Chief Science Advisor of Canada




www.ic.gc.ca








__





COVID-19 and Children - Science.gc.ca


Report of a special task force led by the Chief Science Advisor of Canada




www.ic.gc.ca








__





The Role of Bioaerosols and Indoor Ventilation in COVID-19 Transmission - Science.gc.ca


The Chief Science Advisor Expert Panel on COVID-19 is providing input on the current available evidence regarding indoor air quality and SARS-CoV-2 bioaerosol transmission. The list of participating experts is provided at the end of the document. This report reflects discussions from two...




www.ic.gc.ca


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Yes but a diversified group of experts can certainly make a better judgement call than the general population.


Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
It is not possible for a small group of experts to understand the diverse needs of a the entire population.



> The experts who have the skills to properly analyse the impacts of the situation can talk with each other and make that judgement call better than us *about every factor* to take into account according to each of their own expertise. They will gather data from us and other metrics.
> 
> Yes, sociologists, economists, psychologists, epidemiologists, doctors, etc.


Nope, too many factors, too many situations.
If you have kids, you know it's virtually impossible to make a meal plan that all the kids like, and is nutritious, within a single household.
Take 10, one hundred or a thousand houses, mix in food allergies and cultural preferences and the task quickly becomes impossible.

That's a meal plan, and it's impossible to solve at large scale. Much better to give each house the info and let them decide for themselves.

Any non trivial problem doesn't have a single ideal solution for all cases.
As I suggested earlier, appropriate COVID protocols in the far north are far different than downtown Toronto. 
Look at the isolated border communities, the closing of the international border clearly didn't make any sense there, but the experts somehow failed to account for that.

The idea that some group of experts, with a different agenda than yourself is going to come up with a better solution is not only unlikely, but when combined with the local knowledge problem, impossible.

Also, I've got to ask, does any ordinary Canadian, or even an expert (who is not in Ottawa) think it was a good idea to send our PPE stockpile to China, right before the pandemic hit here?
I think that's a pretty obvious case where the "experts" had a different agenda than protecting the people of Canada.
If I was in charge, or if even a random sampling of the general population was in charge, we wouldn't have given it away, so your claim that experts will certainly do better is clearly wrong.
They may or may not.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> We used democracy to vote for a government. The population doesn't vote for every single decision taken by the government. So it's the exact same thing.
> 
> We voted for a government... which takes decisions... which decided to rely on experts to help them with some of their decisions.


And the government should get information and provide guidance.
But they should make as few decisions as possible to do their job, and those that they should do, should take place as close to the actual situation as possible.

There is a reason most of our day to day life is impacted by the local (city) government, or even more granular groups.
Heck as far as young children are concerned, their parent is the ultimate government authority.

Things work better when the decision is made at the point of action. Faraway experts are simply unable to handle the decisions for millions and millions of people very well.

Secondly the reason we choose politicians, not experts to run things is we want them to try and strike the right balance.
Infectious disease people wanted remote learning, childrens mental health experts wanted in school learning. 
The elected officials made their decision, but here in Ontario they let individuals decide for themselves if they wanted to go in, or stay home. That's the RIGHT decision, let the people decide for themselves.

I actually had a few times where one kid went in, and one stayed home, because different people make different trade offs. That is something high levels of government are unable of addressing. They simply can't make the right decision, they make overly broad dictates that will most certainly be wrong for some number of people, maybe only a few hundred thousand, maybe a few million. But often their trade offs will be the WRONG trade off for a LOT of people.

That's why we have local governments, and personal autonomy.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Canada sent some PPE to China when they were suffering in the early days of the pandemic.

When the virus spread to Canada and the entire world was searching for PPE out of China, the Chinese allowed Canada to set up a private warehouse in China, stock it wth PPE, and load up aircraft and fly the PPE to Canada.

The reality is that China showed their appreciation to Canada for their early support by allowing Canada to do that.









Ottawa poised to run PPE flight out of China every day


Government official says flying each plane to and from China can cost up to C$800,000.




www.politico.com


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The reality is the Trudeau government has delivered everything needed to support Canadians during the pandemic.....PPE, multiple vaccine supply, and financial support benefits.

At every step of the way, the CPC placed themselves as impediments to progress and used delay tactics to obstruct the Trudeau government in ways that would negatively affect Canadians.

The Trudeau government called an election and the results revealed that Canadians rejected the CPC conduct and supported the Liberals handling of the pandemic.

Support for the Liberals has increased since the election and the CPC continue to focus on disruption and obstruction instead of participating in the solutions.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The reality is the Trudeau government has delivered everything needed to support Canadians during the pandemic.....PPE, multiple vaccine supply, and financial support benefits.


Nope, we had massive shortages of PPE



> At every step of the way, the CPC placed themselves as impediments to progress and used delay tactics to obstruct the Trudeau government in ways that would negatively affect Canadians.


Nope, again all parties came together and basically gave Trudeau a free pass to do whatever was needed.



> The Trudeau government called an election and the results revealed that Canadians rejected the CPC conduct and supported the Liberals handling of the pandemic.


Not really, the election showed that the Liberals have very low levels of support, and Conservatives weren't happy with O'Toole either.
If Canadians were happy with the Liberals, they would have gotten more votes than the CPC.




> Support for the Liberals has increased since the election and the CPC continue to focus on disruption and obstruction instead of participating in the solutions.


You've got to be quite partisan to believe that, it's literally the job of the opposition to criticize the flaws and mistakes of the governing party.
The CPC imploded because they lost the election under O'Toole.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I hope the denial of reality by Conservatives continues. It really helps the Liberals stay in power.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> I hope the denial of reality by Conservatives continues. It really helps the Liberals stay in power.


 ... they're still trying to figure what they are themselves ... as much as they want this and that which they're also trying to figure out. 

Oh, Pollievre wants to be PM. Not sure which nation he'll end up as though if he does.


----------



## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

These protests remind me of the theory of why some Mayan cities collapsed.

During an extended period of drought inhabitants blamed the royal family who couldn't restore the rain. So war broke out.

Since the first anti-lockdown/anti-vax/anti-mask demonstration, I have said the most dangerous thing about Covid-19 isn't the virus. The most dangerous thing is the deniers.

If only somebody had a magic wand and made the virus go away.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Tostig said:


> These protests remind me of the theory of why some Mayan cities collapsed.
> 
> During an extended period of drought inhabitants blamed the royal family who couldn't restore the rain. So war broke out.
> 
> Since the first anti-lockdown/anti-vax/anti-mask demonstration, I have said the most dangerous thing about Covid-19 isn't the virus. The most dangerous thing is the deniers.


 ... I don't think the most dangerous thing are the deniers - at least not the outright transparent ones. Their supporters, enablers, misinformational feeders (aka sh1t-disturbers in our modern society) are more dangerous than the most dangerous ones, particularly those ones hiding behind their keyboards.



> If only somebody had a magic wand and made the virus go away.


 ... not going happen no matter how many "magic" wand(s) you have. The virus (as with other pathogens) could have been here on this planet before humans did.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Tostig said:


> These protests remind me of the theory of why some Mayan cities collapsed.
> 
> During an extended period of drought inhabitants blamed the royal family who couldn't restore the rain. So war broke out.
> 
> ...


"denies" the throwaway slur of the new millenium.

Which deniers?
With the reduced fatality rate, sufficient hospital capacity, and declining case counts, which group is the deniers.
1. The one that denies it's probably time to relax restrictions?
I'm not sure what other group of deniers you're referring to.
Those who
2. Deny that a mandatory vaccinations, in the current situation, represents a reasonable infringement on ones medical autonomy?

At the beginning the big problem was government under-reaction, and late stages it's the overreaction.

The problem with the protest is simply that the government hasn't even tried to understand what their concerns are.


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Which deniers?


Those who deny that we should trust the decisions of the government that we've elect from a democracy and which base their decisions on a long list of experts which have the skills to assess the situation and decide on the best actions to be taken.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

For such a short post you included a lot of undemocratic ideas in it.
We should not trust the decisions of the government. We should verify, judge, resist where needed, and hold elected officials accountable. And the assumptions that they base their decisions on a long list of experts which have the skills to assess the situation is plain, and demonstrably wrong. There is also significant difference in opinions of the experts, and significant different in decisions taken by governments. Does it mean that government of Sweden, Denmark, UK, New Zealand, etc. all don't listen to the experts since their decisions are vastly different than Canadian government?


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> We should not trust the decisions of the government. We should verify, judge, resist where needed, and hold elected officials accountable.


Canadians voted Liberal in 2015, then again in 2019, then confirmed it again in 2021 during this pandemic.

You want a new election each year?

Or, if we can never trust the government we've voted for, you want a country without a government?


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Or maybe I understand your point. No, we shouldn't blindly trust the government, we watch closely their decisions and actions, but Canadians voted by democracy their best-fit to their values and opinions.

Canadians assessed their options in 2021 and decided Liberal again. That's last year.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> Canadians voted Liberal in 2015, then again in 2019, then confirmed it again in 2021 during this pandemic.
> 
> You want a new election each year?
> 
> Or, if we can never trust the government we've voted for, you want a country without a government?


Did not see War Measure Act used against protests in their election platform.
Hell, the entire election was branded as "getting out of the pandemic and back to normal". In the meantime they literally just voted against showing a plan on how to get out of the pandemic.

When government moves away from the platform they are elected on and their actions don't reflect it then yes, people need to react, go to the streets, and voice their displeasure. That is democracy.
It isn't having 33% of voters give someone blank cheque for 4 years.


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Again, you can protest. You can have a *legal* protest.

But the goal here isn't a protest, the goal here is an insurrection. With lots of illegal activities.

The intentions here are to create chaos.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Those who deny that we should trust the decisions of the government that we've elect from a democracy and which base their decisions on a long list of experts which have the skills to assess the situation and decide on the best actions to be taken.


This is the same government that committed the genocide of indigenous people that brought about protests over the summer.
This is the same government that forcibly sterilized "undersirables" as recently as 2019.








Indigenous women still forced, coerced into sterilization: Senate report | Globalnews.ca


Women interviewed for the report were coercively sterilized between 2005 and 2010. The committee says it is aware of a case of forced sterilization as recent as 2019.




globalnews.ca





Sometimes, the government is wrong.

Just because the people decided that Trudeau was the least bad option, doesn't mean they actually approve, they simply disapprove less. 2/3 of the country voted against him.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Again, you can protest. You can have a *legal* protest.
> 
> But the goal here isn't a protest, the goal here is an insurrection. With lots of illegal activities.
> 
> The intentions here are to create chaos.


BS, the parliment protest is non violent and nowhere close to an insurrection.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> Again, you can protest. You can have a *legal* protest.
> 
> But the goal here isn't a protest, the goal here is an insurrection. With lots of illegal activities.
> 
> The intentions here are to create chaos.


If you think this is an insurrection then you simply are not level-headed enough to have a reasoned discussion with.

The protests are what they are - protests. What constitutes a legal protest? One that has a permit and is approved by the government? The very entity whose actions are being protested?


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> 2/3 of the country voted against him.


Wrong, it's not because some people didn't vote Liberal that their intentions was to vote _against_ Liberal.

And the argument doesn't hold. Take any other party and I could say that *more* than 2/3 voted against it.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> Wrong, it's not because some people didn't vote Liberal that their intentions was to vote _against_ Liberal.
> 
> And the argument doesn't hold. Take any other party and I could say that *more* than 2/3 voted against it.


Actually, conservatives won a popular vote. That is besides the point. Whether it was 32-33, or even 34%, completely irrelevant.

It doesn't give a blank cheque to the officials. Accountability is a necessary pillar of democracy. And accountability doesn't just come once every 4 years. It happens every day. And accountability is what you are seeing right now in the streets of Ottawa



https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/pcr-test-arrival-travel-drop-1.6350469


There you go. Government completely ignoring experts who are all saying testing pre-flight is absolutely useless.


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> BS, the parliment protest is non violent and nowhere close to an insurrection.


Oh yeah, using the trucks high decibel horns all day long in a residential area, removing the masks of people walking on the street, blocking the bridge with $700 million / day trades which will have a big economical impact and also on innocent people who couldn't work anymore, occupying the downtown streets of a city for over 2 weeks.

The occupation and the blockage of the commercial bridge are intended to destabilize the government, which is pretty close to an insurrection. It's even hurting our reputation to the international.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> Oh yeah, using the trucks high decibel horns all day long in a residential area, removing the masks of people walking on the street, blocking the bridge with $700 million / day trades which will have a big economical impact and also on innocent people who couldn't work anymore, occupying the downtown streets of a city for over 2 weeks.
> 
> The occupation and the blockage of the commercial bridge are intended to destabilize the government, which is pretty close to an insurrection.


Bridge was cleared before Emergency Act was introduced by using - gasp - existing laws in place.


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Bridge was cleared before Emergency Act was introduced by using - gasp - existing laws in place.


Yeah well it took a lot to make them understand that they can't stay there. Up to $100,000 in fine and up to 1 year in prison.

I hope you appreciate that the government was very patient and didn't escalate things too quickly.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> Yeah well it took a lot to make them understand that they can't stay there. Up to $100,000 in fine and up to 1 year in prison.
> 
> I hope you appreciate that the government was very patient and didn't escalate things too quickly.


It is also clear evidence that the standard for Emergency Act is not met. Current laws were enough to deal with it.
The Act is illegal. Trudeau lowering the use of Emergency Act from World War or terrorists kidnapping government officials to 'I don't like that my polls are going down' is a massive change in democracy and plainly treasonous act


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Can you name one country which would allow truckers to occupy the downtown streets of their capital for two weeks?

Now you say that the government is taking it too far, whereas for two weeks people were actually complaining that the government didn't act quickly enough and escalated too slowly.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> Can you name one country which would allow truckers to occupy the downtown streets of their capital for two weeks?
> 
> Now you say that the government is taking it too far, whereas for two weeks people were actually complaining that the government didn't act quickly enough and escalated too slowly.


The complain is that the government didn't use existing laws in place to deal with it.
Again, there are existing laws in place that are sufficient to deal with it, as demonstrated by successful clearing of Ambassador bridge.
The complain was that they refused to send 1800 RCMP officers, which Ottawa said would be enough to deal with the protests.

Again. There are existing laws for every single action that needed to be taken to deal with the blockades








Greg Taylor: Why Trudeau declaring a national emergency should have been a non starter


A threat to the security of Canada is a very high legal bar to reach




nationalpost.com





Yes, by illegally introducing the Act, lowering its threshold from World War or terrorist kidnappings to 'beneficial for polls' is treason, is illegal, and needs to be condemned and prosecuted.

I will remind because for some reason you keep ignoring the conditions for introduction of the Act:

*3* For the purposes of this Act, a national emergency is an urgent and critical situation of a temporary nature that

(a) seriously endangers the lives, health or safety of Canadians and is of such proportions or nature as to exceed the capacity or authority of a province to deal with it, or
(b) seriously threatens the ability of the Government of Canada to preserve the sovereignty, security and territorial integrity of Canada
*and that cannot be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada.*


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> (b) *seriously threatens the ability of the Government of Canada to preserve the sovereignty*,* security and territorial integrity of Canada*


Seems like the current situation, no?


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> Seems like the current situation, no?


Hmm, did I make the font to small or not bold enough?

*AND that cannot be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada.*


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Hmm, did I make the font to small or not bold enough?
> 
> *AND that cannot be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada.*


We're more than two weeks in, I don't call this effective.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> We're two weeks in, I don't call this effective.


I will repeat again, and underline another word that makes your post useless.
This will be the last time because hopefully after you read the sentence for 5th time you will understand it. If not, then simply read it again from existing post rather than have it posted again:

*AND that CANNOT be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada.*

If additional help is needed, I suggest going to dictionary and look up difference between cannot, have not, and were not

And if you still have a problem then read the article that clearly describes what laws can be used to deal with the protest:








Greg Taylor: Why Trudeau declaring a national emergency should have been a non starter


A threat to the security of Canada is a very high legal bar to reach




nationalpost.com





Whatever the government needs to do to deal with the protests, it is already legal under existing laws of Canada, without needing the Act


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> and that cannot be *EFFECTIVELY* dealt with under any other law of Canada.


I can do the same, but highlighting another important word that you've missed.

This started on January 28. We're on February 15. Protesters don't want any negotiation, don't want any discussion, they want to stand their ground until mandates are dropped. This is not how protests work. You can't play the spoiled child.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Then enforce existing laws. They are enough to effectively deal with this situation. So far they simply chose not to.
And read the entire damn sentence. Laws CAN EFFECTIVELY deal with it. They just CHOSE not to effectively deal with it. They CHOSE not to enforce those laws

Don't need to dilute the Act from World War 2 to "don't like my polls'. There is no legal basis and no need for that,

Just enforce existing laws. The article clearly spells out that they could literally do whatever they wanted to clear the blockade without the Act and without setting a precedent where low support for politician is enough to introduce the Act

Traitor needs to be prosecuted to full extend of the law for that


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Then enforce existing laws. They are enough to effectively deal with this situation. So far they simply chose not to.
> And read the entire damn sentence. Laws CAN EFFECTIVELY deal with it. They just CHOSE not to effectively deal with it. They CHOSE not to enforce those laws
> 
> Don't need to dilute the Act from World War 2 to "don't like my polls'. There is no legal basis and no need for that,
> ...


We're diverging towards a debate whether that Act should be used or not.

The debate was about how the protesters are creating chaos.

The fact that we have to come up which such debates about laws on how to deal with a protest shows how the protesters are creating chaos.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Canadians voted Liberal in 2015, then again in 2019, then confirmed it again in 2021 during this pandemic.
> 
> You want a new election each year?
> 
> Or, if we can never trust the government we've voted for, you want a country without a government?


 ... I suggested he get his Freedom Island a long time ago but he still prefers to stay in this country with its sh1tty and treacherous government (according to him). Beats me why.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Bridge was cleared before Emergency Act was introduced by using - gasp - existing laws in place.


 ... the city of Ottawa is still being held hostage with these hooligans and its voters are still suffering. Just because you can't hear and smell the stinking pollution from thousands of miles away from your province doesn't give you the right to terrorize others, particularly laws abiding citizens. What have the residents of Ottawa (plus almost Toronto) done to deserve this idea of "democracy" of yours?


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Then enforce existing laws. They are enough to effectively deal with this situation. So far they simply chose not to.
> And read the entire damn sentence. Laws CAN EFFECTIVELY deal with it. They just CHOSE not to effectively deal with it. They CHOSE not to enforce those laws
> 
> Don't need to dilute the Act from World War 2 to "don't like my polls'. There is no legal basis and no need for that,
> ...


 ... so now you're an expert lawyer ... wow.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Yeah well it took a lot to make them understand that they can't stay there. Up to $100,000 in fine and up to 1 year in prison.
> 
> I hope you appreciate that the government was very patient and didn't escalate things too quickly.


 . .. far too patient. Look at the all the law enforcement agencies that were involved ... Ottawa police, provincial police, RCMP ... not one truck was moved. If there's any more love to give, it'll be a tough one ... aka send in the troops and tanks to remove them if Trudeau has too.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Can you name one country which would allow truckers to occupy the downtown streets of their capital for two weeks?
> 
> Now you say that the government is taking it too far, whereas for two weeks people were actually complaining that the government didn't act quickly enough and escalated too slowly.


France?
They're quite good at it, I think the farmers protest for more handouts every year or so.

I do think that resorting to force and employing the emergency act, without ever actually meeting with the protestors to understand the issues isn't a constructive approach.

The mayor of Ottawa doesn't seem to have much trouble meeting with protestors to discuss issues. Why can't the PM?


Personally I don't think obnoxious protests should be permitted at all, but I'm willing to accept that.

As far as the truckers, from all reports they are far more peaceful than the domestic terrorists who were destroying statues during the summer.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> We're more than two weeks in, I don't call this effective.


The fact that the government didn't enforce the existing laws for 2 weeks is the problem, not the law.
Just like the government iddn't enforce the law against pipeline protests, BLM protests or any otehr number of protests.

The Canadian norm is to allow protests to burn out, because quite honestly most protests are lazy leftist who want free stuff, and aren't willing to work at something for weeks.


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> France?
> They're quite good at it, I think the farmers protest for more handouts every year or so.
> 
> I do think that resorting to force and employing the emergency act, without ever actually meeting with the protestors to understand the issues isn't a constructive approach.
> ...


Did you see the reports from the Paris truckers convoy?








Paris police thwart advance of protesters inspired by Canada’s trucker convoy - National | Globalnews.ca


Police urged the protesters to move to a park, where the municipality said they could demonstrate, and warned the public about traffic problems in the city.




globalnews.ca





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492524158735028231


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> France?
> They're quite good at it, I think the farmers protest for more handouts every year or so.


Staying there two weeks? You agree with how people in France protest for everything? You think it's helpful and efficient?



MrMatt said:


> As far as the truckers, from all reports they are far more peaceful than the domestic terrorists who were destroying statues during the summer.


What about the desecration of the National War Memorial/Terry Fox statue?



MrMatt said:


> The Canadian norm is to allow protests to burn out, because quite honestly most protests are lazy leftist who want free stuff, and aren't willing to work at something for weeks.


In Quebec there was the student protests in 2012 which lasted more than 6 months.




MrMatt said:


> The mayor of Ottawa doesn't seem to have much trouble meeting with protestors to discuss issues.


If he's been talking with them, why are they still occupying the place after two weeks, disrupting the local commerces? Because they don't care.


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> The Canadian norm is to allow protests to burn out


Because civilized protesters don't occupy the streets for two weeks. Civilized protesters understand this.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I believe that Candice Bergen is out to prove that she can 'best' Erin O'Toole when it comes to flip flopping on an issue. 

So far she is up to three on the Ottawa demo. Three in three weeks...or is it four? Olympic style gold medal flip flopper. Guess she is hoping that no one will notice.


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> As far as the truckers, from all reports they are far more peaceful than the domestic terrorists who were destroying statues during the summer.


Oh, just read this about the trucker protesters in Alberta.

_RCMP said a search early Monday morning uncovered 13 long guns, handguns, a machete, a large quantity of ammunition and bulletproof vests. Two additional weapons were seized later Monday._

Far more peaceful people, huh...


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

What would have harpey done differently? I remember crisis like idle no more where he also refused to meet with leaders, and preferred to have them starve.

Same with Jean Charest with the student protests. Refused to meet up with them and he's probably running for next con leader.

Not defending Trudeau (I hate him too) but you guys need to give your head a shake.


----------



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

MrBlackhill said:


> The debate was about how the protesters are creating chaos.


According to the thread subject, was about pollution. 'Course I got beaten up for not realizing the foreign child labour practices were encompassed in "pollution" so there you go.



damian13ster said:


> Then enforce existing laws. They are enough to effectively deal with this situation. So far they simply chose not to.


So this I agree on. Like many here in Ottawa, I am puzzled why this mess has been allowed to fester. Personally it does not affect me, but I know many people who are affected, some pretty deeply. I accept that any sort of "protest" even broadly defined, taking place in the capitol has to be treated with kid gloves. It is not reasonable to put down or even give the impression of putting down a political rally/demonstration/protest immediately or with force, and these things should be allowed to run their course. I think the city/province/NCC/RCMP lack a clear set of criteria what will be "put up with" as a cost of being the capitol and where things transition to a problem that needs intervention. The mixture of competent authorities is not a help in this I'm sure.

All that aside, even without extra powers from the province, and certainly without help from the feds, I think the OPS could have handled this. In week one, what I pictured was that since all the vehicles have license plates and VINs; most have commercial licenses, it should be a matter of 5 minutes work to identify who the exact owner is and begin levying fines and similar violations. They should all be underwater for $10G or more each in fines and if they don't eventually pay they will lose their licenses. Come week two the police should have been issuing Ontario form 9 "Appearance Notices" to each driver to charge them with mischief. If they show for their date, arrest them and bail them on conditions to move their damn vehicle. If they no-show then issue a warrant and up the charge to criminal mischief. Put them in CPIC. Grab them and put them in custody. Impound, even if only on paper, their vehicles -- give notice to the competent DMV that the vehicle is impounded and not licensable or insurable. Attach notices of impoundment and police seals to the vehicles.

In fact it's not evident that the police have done anything at all. Perhaps they've done much of what I hope, but it's not made the news. It's unlikely the police would do anything that would even possibly trigger violence. They will not want to be recorded cutting open the doors of a truck and hauling the toddlers and disabled grandmothers out so that the vehicle can be safely towed. The passive aggressive tactics of the truck occupation are tough to deal with in a totally non-violent way and the truckers can "not comply" and joke about ignoring the fines and notices for quite a long time, even if they are legally hosed in the long run.

I suspect that the Emergency Act powers would be used in a comparatively light handed way. My guess is that they will be used mainly to trace/freeze/block all the funding and to allow the police to use intelligence to root out organizers and enablers. I seriously doubt that we will see troops marching through down town or SWAT teams blowing open camper doors. But who knows.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Doesn't matter. Now every dumbass who is unpopular in polls can invoke Emergency Act and go after the dissidents and people who don't support him or her.
That's the new standard


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Oh, just read this about the trucker protesters in Alberta.
> 
> _RCMP said a search early Monday morning uncovered 13 long guns, handguns, a machete, a large quantity of ammunition and bulletproof vests. Two additional weapons were seized later Monday._
> 
> Far more peaceful people, huh...


Were any people injured? was any property destroyed?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Because civilized protesters don't occupy the streets for two weeks. Civilized protesters understand this.


Of course not, normally the government capitulates almost immediately.

Remember, this could have all been avoided if the PM met with the protestors and actually addressed their concerns.
Instead he called them names, and went into hiding.

Leaving the mess to the Mayor to deal with.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gardner said:


> In fact it's not evident that the police have done anything at all.


Canadian police generally don't interfere with protests, they've gone as far as ignoring court orders to not deal with protestors.

Unless they're violent, they really shy away from conflict.
All reports suggest these protests have been non violent, with minimal property damage.

Really other than them being obnoxious, they haven't done much wrong.


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Were any people injured? was any property destroyed?


Wait. Are you saying that since there was nobody injured, it's ok?

By your standards I could go walk the streets with a bag full of loaded guns and if I get arrested I'd just say to the police "hey, calm down, I haven't shot anyone, what's the matter". Be careful with what you would reply to this...

Have you ever heard the saying "why did we have to wait for someone to get injured/killed before taking action"?

I don't understand how you can take it easy on a situation implying loaded guns in a protest.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Wait. Are you saying that since there was nobody injured, it's ok?


No, I'm saying if nobody was injured, it was mostly peaceful.



> By your standards I could go walk the streets with a bag full of loaded guns and if I get arrested I'd just say to the police "hey calm down, I haven't shot anyone".


No that's illegal, and should not be permitted.
But hey, why debate the issues when you can win arguing against a position nobody holds!
Did anyone here, or any of the protest organizers, or a significant number of protestors support bringing weapons illegally? I don't think so.

The reality is that his is a mostly peaceful protest that is being slandered and misrepresented, just because the PM doesn't want to deal with them. Why should he? He can just run away and leave it to the Mayor to deal with.



> Have you ever heard the saying "why did we have to wait for someone to be injured/killed before taking action"?


Yes I've also seen minority report.
Lets prosecute the crimes that are actually occurring, the idea that we should start prosecuting's for crimes that haven't been committed is ridiculous.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Tostig said:


> Since the first anti-lockdown/anti-vax/anti-mask demonstration, I have said the most dangerous thing about Covid-19 isn't the virus. The most dangerous thing is the deniers.
> 
> If only somebody had a magic wand and made the virus go away.


It's really not just the deniers. I think the more dangerous force behind this is the American alt-right, far right extremism and Trump/MAGA.

Notice that MAGA stuff is all over the place here, along with alt right conspiracy theory stuff. *This is all American* and it's all over the place here. We see it on this forum, we see it among the protesters, plus the money flowing in, even among brainwashed MAGA supporters in Canada like this guy.

Canada, on its own, would have been fine. But we are experiencing the radicalism of the American far right (which includes their religious fundamentalism + MAGA cult). They inspire and fuel a similar movement in Canada. The American far right is like a cancer in our society.

Even Republican goons are directly fuelling this thing, for god sake.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrBlackhill said:


> Canadians voted Liberal in 2015, then again in 2019, then confirmed it again in 2021 during this pandemic.
> 
> You want a new election each year?


Dude, don't bother with this kind of logic. The anti-government nuts / right wing extremists will never be satisfied. Nothing makes them happy.

Look at the US, where all this comes from. They *elected* Trump, _and then they were angry through all the Trump years!_ Boy were they furious... while their man was in office.

This far-right activity doesn't have much to do with covid anyway. If it wasn't this, it would be a movement about high inflation. Remember that they earlier did a "United We Roll" convoy into Ottawa for oil & gas reasons.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

james4beach said:


> It's really not just the deniers. I think the more dangerous force behind this is the American alt-right, far right extremism and Trump/MAGA.
> 
> Notice that MAGA stuff is all over the place here, along with alt right conspiracy theory stuff. *This is all American* and it's all over the place here. We see it on this forum, we see it among the protesters, plus the money flowing in, even among brainwashed MAGA supporters in Canada like this guy.
> 
> ...


The radicals are the ones introducing illegally Emergency Act over poll numbers.
Laws exist to deal with crimes, illegal blockades, etc. Calling for having those laws used instead of using war-time measure that previously was only used during WW1, WW2, and terrorist kidnapping of politicians (and this one was already an overreach) is not radical.

We have PM that set a precedent to have any disgruntled politician enact war-time measure to deal with people he doesn't like. That's radical


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> We have PM that set a precedent to have any disgruntled politician enact war-time measure to deal with people he doesn't like. That's radical


People the PM won't even meet with, while the Mayor successfully negotiates with them.
It's really embarrasing


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Never negotiate with terrorists.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

damian13ster said:


> Doesn't matter. Now every dumbass who is unpopular in polls can invoke Emergency Act and go after the dissidents and people who don't support him or her.
> That's the new standard
> [/QUOT





MrMatt said:


> People the PM won't even meet with, while the Mayor successfully negotiates with them.
> It's really embarrasing


Why on earth would any PM meet or negotiate with a group of people, Unite in this instance, whose ask is to fire the PM, have the GG disolve Parliament, and then form a Government consisting of unelected Senators and the Unity group members????

Let alone a group of protesters none of whom must have passed, or may not remember, their Grade 5 or 6 social studies where the BNA Act separation of powers between the Provinces and the Federal Government were outlined?

I would have been embarrassed, and ashamed of, the PM if he had met this group.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

ian said:


> Why on earth would any PM meet or negotiate with a group of people, Unite in this instance, whose ask is to fire the PM, have the GG disolve Parliament, and then form a Government consisting of unelected Senators and the Unity group members????
> 
> Let alone a group of protesters none of whom must have passed, or may not remember, their Grade 5 or 6 social studies where the BNA Act separation of powers between the Provinces and the Federal Government were outlined?
> 
> I would have been embarrassed, and ashamed of, the PM if he had met this group.


Well since most of the protestors simply want the restrictions to end, and for the government to recognize ones right to medical autonomy. I don't see what the big deal is.

I was much more embarrassed when the PM met with, and protested with a group protesting the government he leads. 
At least when Kevin smith protested himself, he was doing it as a joke.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

ian said:


> I believe that Candice Bergen is out to prove that she can 'best' Erin O'Toole when it comes to flip flopping on an issue.
> 
> So far she is up to three on the Ottawa demo. Three in three weeks...or is it four? Olympic style gold medal flip flopper. Guess she is hoping that no one will notice.


 ... re above - what's the latest with the "interim" leader. Any link?


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Banks haven't quit coal. Study says commercial lenders have channeled $1.5 trillion to the industry since 2019*

Financial institutions from just six countries — the U.S., China, Japan, India, *Canada* and the U.K. — were found to be responsible for over 80% of coal financing and investment between January 2019 and November last year.
Banks haven't quit coal. Study says commercial lenders have channeled $1.5 trillion to the industry since 2019


----------



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Beaver101 said:


> what's the latest with the "interim" leader. Any link?


They've struck a committee to organize a leadership race -- I can't see it on the web site, just in the email they doubtless sent everyone.



> Wed, 16 Feb 2022 22:24:14 -0500
> Tonight, National Council appointed 21 Conservatives to the Leadership Election Organizing Committee (LEOC), in accordance with Article 10.9.3 of the party’s Constitution.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Well since most of the protestors simply want the restrictions to end, and for the government to recognize ones right to medical autonomy. I don't see what the big deal is.


If you don't see "what the big deal is" then your ideas of what is acceptable in society is way out of whack with Canadian norms.

This is not even close to being a legitimate protest. They brought in heavy equipment (basically like tanks), in a coordinated action to deliberately harm the city. Show me one example of a previous protest that held a major city hostage for 20 days, coordinated multiple border closures, disrupted international trade for weeks, used heavy equipment that's beyond the police's control. It's never happened.

It's ludicrous to think this is normal or acceptable for protest. So the next time there's a student protest, I guess (with foreign funding) they should acquire heavy vehicles and tactically surround government buildings? While simultaneously calling for an overthrow of the government, and cutting off national border crossings.

A piece from The Atlantic

As Stephanie Carvin, a former national-security official in Canada, told _The New York Times_, “The biggest misconception about this, even within Canada, is that extremists have infiltrated the movement … This was an extremist movement that got mainstream attention.”​​


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I was looking through the leaked list of donations to the extremists.

There are lots of Christian religious references in here. And from what's shown in footage (prayers, bibles being circulated, and organization through churches) it's clear that Christian fundamentalists are playing a big role.

Kind of funny, because somehow I think that if Muslim radicals organized a blockade of a city, called for the overthrow of the government, and strategically crippled the border crossings, we'd call that a terrorist attack. How about if they used military training in the coordination? How about if they were supported by militia groups?

But I guess everyone is just cool with it when Christian radicals do it. And they are doing *exactly* the same things. These are foreign-funded religious extremists. I think we need to root out which churches are supporting and fuelling this extremism. We can then help the misguided Christians using deradicalization techniques. I believe that the anti-terrorism legislation brought in by Harper provides the tools needed to hunt down Christian terrorists.


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Clearly a one sided street.
BLM or Antifa = bad
Fireworks and bonfires downtown, blocking major bridges to USA and bringing guns = good.

Law and order they say.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Brought in basically tanks to harm the city? - what substances are you on?


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

He's saying that these big rigs are basically like tanks -- can't tow them out.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

While I agree with you that if the protesters were brown folks or sihks or tamils or something, the right wing would be losing their minds instead of just calmly watching. But the right wing crazies are immune to irony, so there's hardly a point in trying that argument.



james4beach said:


> basically like tanks


I think it harms your argument to exaggerate. They are big heavy vehicles, but they are not armoured or armed and are not designed as offensive weapons. Regular police could move them, they just have to work out how to do it without creating a photo op for the protesters.


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## cliffsecord (Jan 10, 2020)

Hyperbole and people taking that for face value is a huge problem in these kind of discussions. The situation is getting tense and if someone even gives a mean look to the wrong person and things can go sideways pretty quick. Personally, I'm concerned about the gun seizure in Alberta and am worried about the ones they didn't find and where they will go next. I will admit though that I believe that those guys with the guns aren't there to support the convoy but just sht disturbers looking for a reason to cause trouble.

I think everyone should take a break for three weeks. After that the protestors can come back with an organized and legal protest. Kind of like the circuit breaker in the stock exchanges.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Again. Who determines what is a legal protest? The entity being protested?
They can come back, go to parliament hill, spend an afternoon there, then the government tells them to go home and declares assembly illegal?

No one, other than people hit by car by left-wing nut job got hurt. And it is impressive feat considering this has been going on for 3 weeks. I was afraid eventually there will be flare-ups, but luckily for now cooler heads prevailed, at least outside of parliament. Which is a considerable feat considering hate-speech spewing, human right abuser we have running the country (and no, it is not a hyperbole sadly)


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

gardner said:


> While I agree with you that if the protesters were brown folks or sihks or tamils or something, the right wing would be losing their minds instead of just calmly watching. But the right wing crazies are immune to irony, so there's hardly a point in trying that argument.


A lot of the protestors are Sikhs, but don't let facts get in the way.

We have a PM who is punishing his political opponents and it's happily celebrated by the clueless left who are incapable of reason, debate, or tolerance. And you are on their side. Congratulations.


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## cliffsecord (Jan 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Again. Who determines what is a legal protest? The entity being protested?
> They can come back, go to parliament hill, spend an afternoon there, then the government tells them to go home and declares assembly illegal?
> 
> No one, other than people hit by car by left-wing nut job got hurt. And it is impressive feat considering this has been going on for 3 weeks. I was afraid eventually there will be flare-ups, but luckily for now cooler heads prevailed, at least outside of parliament. Which is a considerable feat considering hate-speech spewing, human right abuser we have running the country (and no, it is not a hyperbole sadly)



Legal protest seems to be spelled out here: Demonstrators

Excerpt below. You decide if any of the following acts have occurred.

Section 1 of the Charter, which provides for limitations on rights and freedoms, states:1. The _Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms _guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it, subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

The following is a list of some of the relevant _Criminal Code _sections that limit certain activities:


blocking or obstructing a highway (Section 423(1)(g))
causing a disturbance (Section 175)
common nuisance (Section 180)
interfering with transportation facilities (Section 248)
breach of the peace or imminent breach (Section 31)
offensive volatile substance (Section 178)
riots (Sections 32, 33, 64, 65, 67, 68, 69)
unlawful assembly (Section 63)
mischief (Section 430)


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Based on the above rail, highway, and occupy protests in the past broke many of those rules.

The only difference is that Trudeau and the left applaud the protests that they support and punish those that they don't support.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Yep, he's still the PM and "I'm OUTTA HERE", not.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

cliffsecord said:


> Legal protest seems to be spelled out here: Demonstrators
> 
> Excerpt below. You decide if any of the following acts have occurred.
> 
> ...


Precisely. No matter what they do, government officials being protested can just declare unlawful assembly and then the protest is illegal.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

fstamand said:


> He's saying that these big rigs are basically like tanks -- can't tow them out.


I didn't think the defining characteristic of a tank was the inability to tow it.


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## cliffsecord (Jan 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Precisely. No matter what they do, government officials being protested can just declare unlawful assembly and then the protest is illegal.


Please read the whole page. If you want a demonstration, you can work with the police so that everyone's rights are respected. There is a process written out pretty clearly and the authorities will work with you. It seems to me though that you like to take it to the worst case scenario - I'm a moderate for sure. Just remember that just because you don't like the government or the existing rule of law doesn't mean it's wrong. If we took everything to the extreme society would fail.

*Planning a demonstration?*
The Ottawa Police Service will work with the event organizers and other stakeholders to ensure a safe environment for a demonstration. We recognize the importance of freedoms and of all other protections in the _Charter_. The police remain committed to ensuring that _Charter_ guaranteed rights and freedoms are upheld, while ensuring that police officers carry out their sworn duties.

All demonstration planning should begin with a permit application to the City of Ottawa. There is no cost for this service and it allows all city stakeholders to be informed of any impacts on their areas of responsibility. (i.e. OC Transpo busses re-routed, Fire trucks being aware of routes that may cause delays etc.)


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

I did read the whole page. What I said is true. If government officials don't want to be protested - all they have to do is not give out a permit or to revoke a permit and state the protest is illegal. You are not even disputing that - you just make assumption, that has no precedent, that government will allow for a long and strong protest against itself.

Yeah, there will be some protests that are allowed to go through. Some that violate multiple sections of the criminal code you listed will even have PM bend a knee in front of them. Others, that government doesn't like, will simply be declared illegal. That has always been the case and that will always be the case


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## cliffsecord (Jan 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> I did read the whole page. What I said is true. If government officials don't want to be protested - all they have to do is not give out a permit or to revoke a permit and state the protest is illegal. You are not even disputing that - you just make assumption, that has no precedent, that government will allow for a long and strong protest against itself.
> 
> Yeah, there will be some protests that are allowed to go through. Some that violate multiple sections of the criminal code you listed will even have PM bend a knee in front of them. Others, that government doesn't like, will simply be declared illegal. That has always been the case and that will always be the case


Umm...the protest has gone on for 3 weeks. I'm pretty sure that the government has let it run its course and it's time to go home. Heck even the Conservative leader said that last week (Federal Conservatives call on anti-vaccine mandate protesters to go home | RCI). So who would you want to run the government now? Fundamentally, I also think that if they didn't disturb the local residents that the protest would have been allowed to continue.

Sounds to me, you also have a fundamental distrust of the government.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

I have fundamental distrust of governments that use war-time measures against protests where no one got hurt, not a single brawl, that has been incredibly peaceful for over 3 weeks.

Show me another human rights protest that went on for so long without a single incident?

Trudeau supported blockades in India that went on for 11 months.

Yes, I have a distrust of governments that introduce war-time measures for peaceful protesters (that are breaking the law and there are enforcement measures to deal with it)

Trudeau now needs to go. He is done. Hate-speech, racism, authoritarianism, calling out people as nazis while he cracks down on demonstrations in exactly same way as fascists do?
Lowering a bar for Emergency Act from World Wars to peaceful protest is treason.
Following this, Canada will never be the country it used to be


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Then maybe he should call another election and prove you wrong. Again.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Yeah, because fascists never won elections before....


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

fstamand said:


> Then maybe he should call another election and prove you wrong. Again.


That's one way to break up the protest quickly. The TPs will have to rush home to vote or if they stay, Trudeau will get his majority.

But isn't it interesting. Now Trudeau is getting criticism for NOT cracking down on them hard or fast enough.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Yeah, because fascists never won elections before....


 ... or claim the election was rigged or stolen from them. You know, gotta follow the reality show trend too. LMAO.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Heavy police presence descends on downtown Ottawa, metal fencing goes up near convoy protesters

The latest published 3 hours ago. Article is behind a paywall but here's its entirety:



> _*Dickson, Janice; Walsh Marieke : The Globe and Mail. February 17, 2022 *
> 
> A significantly heavier police presence descended on downtown Ottawa Thursday morning, one day after protesters were ordered to leave immediately or face severe consequences. Police continued to hand out notices warning people to leave.
> 
> ...


 ... I wonder why Ms. Bergen doesn't go and talk to the protestors herself to calm them down if she feels that's really the right thing to do. Justin has already stated he wasn't gonna to talk to them so which part of his statement did she not understand? Hell, even Ford isn't gonna to be stupid enough to go out there and "chat with them". And if she's afraid of her life, then get her colleague Pollievre to have an "agreement chat" with them.

As for Ms. Lich, one of the main organizer, I gather being in the warmth of a home, rallying from a computer is hell alot better than freezing butts, (including pets and kids) with those 'freedom fighting' suckers ... on a "hill"(?).


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Tostig said:


> That's one way to break up the protest quickly. The TPs will have to rush home to vote or if they stay, Trudeau will get his majority.
> 
> But isn't it interesting. Now Trudeau is getting criticism for NOT cracking down on them hard or fast enough.


I dont believe that's what the criticism is about. there is valid criticism though:

he singlehandedly turned this protest into occupation
he inflamed the situation
refusal to come forward with a plan (that's idiotic,protests or not, there should be a plan)
hate speech, racism, gaslighting

From enforcement standpoint:
- Ottawa mayor asked for 1,800 RCMP members and stated it will be enough to deal with the protest - Trudeau refused.


And now to cover up his failures and introduce basic dictatorship he admires, he dilutes war-time act to 'I dont like that people dont like me" Act


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Opinion piece from the CBC from someone who escaped persecution. A good friend of mine escaped similar persecution in El Salvador and I know a similar story of a man who came here from Chile. Interesting how different experiences and different perspectives shape our opinions on the current situation Canada is experiencing. 

I fled my country to find freedom in Canada. Let's not lose sight of what freedom really means | CBC News


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Thank you for sharing that story. Simple but very meaningful - and to the point. Especially on the bolded part(s):




> _Mirtha Rivera_





> _ · For CBC Opinion · Posted: Feb 17, 2022 5:00
> 
> ...
> I know what a loss of freedom is. It's much more frightening than getting a needle in your arm that will keep you alive by helping prevent the spread of a highly contagious virus.
> ...


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> If you don't see "what the big deal is" then your ideas of what is acceptable in society is way out of whack with Canadian norms.
> 
> This is not even close to being a legitimate protest. They brought in heavy equipment (basically like tanks), in a coordinated action to deliberately harm the city. Show me one example of a previous protest that held a major city hostage for 20 days, coordinated multiple border closures, disrupted international trade for weeks, used heavy equipment that's beyond the police's control. It's never happened.
> 
> ...


Most governments IN CANADA, think it's time to withdraw the restrictions. This isn't some crazy fringe movement, it's the mainstream position of most Governments in Canada and the world.

But of course in the game of Canadian politics, it's easier to lie about your opponents.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gardner said:


> While I agree with you that if the protesters were brown folks or sihks or tamils or something, the right wing would be losing their minds instead of just calmly watching. But the right wing crazies are immune to irony, so there's hardly a point in trying that argument.


The right wingers got upset over the rail blockades and the BLM protests, but I even in Oka, which was the closest thing to an insurrection in recent history, they never called for using using the banking system to destroy peoples lives.

Trudeau has gone way way too far.
He is a failed leader, even the NDP admit it.

Maybe the protest is problematic and too big, so clear it out. 
There are lots of options, but Trudeau is going on vengeful attack against those who would protest him, he's actively antagonizing people, I think he's trying to be as divisive and destructive to my country as he can be.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Just a further thing, I think that to go after people and firing them for donating to a protest.. that's just nuts.

If you accept it's been 3 weeks, it's becoming problematic etc that's fine.
But if someone gave money earlier when it was still a legal protest... I think there is a problem.

I have serious concerns about the free speech consequences of these actions.

FWIW, I didn't donate, and I think the protest is dumb (like I said weeks ago).

But I think the way they're attacking people, they're trying to send a message, and that's VERY concerning.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> The right wingers got upset over the rail blockades and the BLM protests, but I even in Oka, which was the closest thing to an insurrection in recent history, they never called for using using the banking system to destroy peoples lives.
> 
> Trudeau has gone way way too far.
> He is a failed leader, even the NDP admit it.
> ...


 ... spin it anyway you want with your first 2 paragraphs which are nothing basically but the "oh poor me" syndrome.

But say your last sentence again, particularly the bolded part.

Justin Trudeau is the current prime minister of Canada (fact). Yet according to you, "he's trying to be as divisive and destructive as he can ", so he likes to shoot himself in the head?

And to top of it, divisive and destructive to "my country" as he can be. So it's your country and not his? Okay, you make a lot of sense here if not reveal your true underlying message - the racist mantra.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> The right wingers got upset over the rail blockades and the BLM protests, but I even in Oka, which was the closest thing to an insurrection in recent history, they never called for using using the banking system to destroy peoples lives.
> 
> Trudeau has gone way way too far.
> He is a failed leader, even the NDP admit it.
> ...


Canadian Civil Liberties Association to sue federal government over Emergencies Act

Paraphrasing Hitler while painting anyone who stands near protestors as Nazis and then freezing their bank accounts..

"It's a very small group of people, but they take up space.. Do we tolerate these people?" Justin Trudeau

"Why do we tolerate these people?.. They take up space" Adolf Hitler


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Great. We will get the verdict in 3-4 years, or the case will be dropped all together once emergency act is taken off.
Fear of setting precedent is what makes Canadian courts so inept in civil liberties cases. Under common law the precedents are key


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Great. We will get the verdict in 3-4 years, or the case will be dropped all together once emergency act is taken off.
> Fear of setting precedent is what makes Canadian courts so inept in civil liberties cases. Under common law the precedents are key


 ... yep, courtesy of your hardworking tax dollars.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

66% of Canadians approve Justin's decision on the Canada's emergency act.

I suppose you're just part of the fringe minority.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Great. We will get the verdict in 3-4 years, or the case will be dropped all together once emergency act is taken off.
> Fear of setting precedent is what makes Canadian courts so inept in civil liberties cases. Under common law the precedents are key


I'm far more concerned about the precedent of firing people who may have thought they were simply funding a protest.

What happens next time a union participates in an illegal protest? 
Do they freeze and debank all union members accounts?

The idea that someone could lose their job, and be debanked, simply because they wanted to support a truck driver going to ottawa to protest is an overreaction.

If they have evidence that the person actually knowingly funded criminal acts.. sure, but providing a bouncy castle for kids to play on... they're not a terrorist.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

fstamand said:


> 66% of Canadians approve Justin's decision on the Canada's emergency act.
> 
> I suppose you're just part of the fringe minority.


First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

fstamand said:


> 66% of Canadians approve Justin's decision on the Canada's emergency act.
> 
> I suppose you're just part of the fringe minority.


That's why Justin paid off the media. Some people are easily duped.


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

When Justin said he praised dictatorships, he really meant it. Both China and North Korea punish those that speak out against the regime. The same thing is happening here.

For 4 years they called Trump a dictator yet it's Biden and Trudeau who are the real tyrants.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

HappilyRetired said:


> That's why Justin paid off the media. Some people are easily duped.


Fake news if it doesn't come from Rebel Media?


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

m3s said:


> First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
> 
> Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
> 
> ...


Exactly. By the time the clueless left catches on there will be no one left to defend them.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

m3s said:


> Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


I wonder why. I can be your friend.


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

fstamand said:


> Fake news if it doesn't come from Rebel Media?


Let me guess, you get your "facts" from CBC.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.


But this time the Jews are the ones waving Swastikas.. so it's okay.


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

HappilyRetired said:


> Let me guess, you get your "facts" from CBC.








The Emergencies Act | Maru Group


The results of a national survey released today by Maru Public Opinion finds two-thirds (66%) of Canadians support Prime Minister Justin Trudeau bringing in the Emergencies Act to give the federal government extra powers to handle the protests across the country.




www.marugroup.net


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I have been watching the Ottawa protest streamed live on Youtube.

The police have started making arrests. One guy tried to fight the police but they put him down pretty quickly.

I suspect this insurrection is coming to an end.


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

I didn't disagree that it's 66%, I was referring to the Rebel News comment made by someone who probably believes everything CBC says. So far Rebel News has been more accurate than CBC on this issue.

I'm also not surprised at the results. It's easy to sway public opinion when you buy off the media.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

With a few arrests and one of the leaders leaving after a call from his employer demanding the trailer back out west, the insurrection appears to be running out of steam.

There is a very heavy police presence, and the Emergency Act is appearing to be successful at thinning out the crowd as people leave.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

For what it's worth, trucking accounts for a significant amount of global pollution. I think it's something like a quarter of all emissions globally.

New technology is coming that will cut the bulk of these emissions. The first such technology will come from Achates Power in the form of dual opposed piston engines. Emissions should be cut by 80+ percent and fuel efficiency is expected to bump 30-50%.

Achates is private. Caterpillar is working with Achates to manufacture the first version of the engine for the military. There are already lots of development samples rolling a lot of test miles. Commercial variants should appear about one year later 2024-2025. That's only two years away.

I expect this will slow the roll of electric trucks, at least briefly.

Sorry for the interruption. I shall return you to your regularly scheduled political discussion.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> The Emergencies Act | Maru Group
> 
> 
> The results of a national survey released today by Maru Public Opinion finds two-thirds (66%) of Canadians support Prime Minister Justin Trudeau bringing in the Emergencies Act to give the federal government extra powers to handle the protests across the country.
> ...


And this is precisely why he did it.
It is despicable.

Threshold brought down from World War to "it will boost my polls". Canada will never be the same after this action. Now every politician that is not popular will feel justified in putting in place Emergency Act and imposing his power.
Lowering that bar is treason. He should be prosecuted to full extent of the law


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

damian13ster said:


> And this is precisely why he did it.
> It is despicable.
> 
> Threshold brought down from World War to "it will boost my polls". Canada will never be the same after this action. Now every politician that is not popular will feel justified in putting in place Emergency Act and imposing his power.
> Lowering that bar is treason. He should be prosecuted to full extent of the law


Maybe it's time to join the 66% in the 21st century. You're slowing down the heard.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

HappilyRetired said:


> Let me guess, you get your "facts" from CBC.


Any news that doesn't suit your views are fake news, correct?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> With a few arrests and one of the leaders leaving after a call from his employer demanding the trailer back out west, the insurrection appears to be running out of steam.
> 
> There is a very heavy police presence, and the Emergency Act is appearing to be successful at thinning out the crowd as people leave.


There never was an insurrection.
It was mostly a large protest.

Doesn't seem like anyone stormed buildings or anything like that.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> And this is precisely why he did it.
> It is despicable.
> 
> Threshold brought down from World War to "it will boost my polls". Canada will never be the same after this action. Now every politician that is not popular will feel justified in putting in place Emergency Act and imposing his power.
> Lowering that bar is treason. He should be prosecuted to full extent of the law


Read all of it, half of Canadians don't approve of how politicians handled this, and thought it went on too long.

There is frustration at the long running protest, and broad support to end it.
But I'm not sure if most of the frustration is at the protestors, or the governments inaction.

To do nothing for weeks, then go nuclear is just bad leadership.


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> But I'm not sure if most of the frustration is at the protestors, or the governments inaction.


If you read all of it, you got your answer here.

_A majority (68%) of Canadians say that regardless of political stripe, the politicians 
*who have contributed to or supported these protests should be voted out of office*._

Basically saying that a majority of Canadians agree that you should not be supporting these protests.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gardner said:


> Regular police could move them


Are you sure? They can't be moved with regular tow trucks. They need special tow trucks (very expensive big machines) that specialize in big rigs. From what I've heard, the police *don't* have this equipment, so they either have to use commercial services or military equipment.

I said they are like tanks because, as I understood it, police actually don't have the ability to move these.


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

fstamand said:


> Any news that doesn't suit your views are fake news, correct?


Why don't you tell us who do you trust in the media?


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

The media is going after people who donated $40 to a peaceful protest but they have no interest in Ghislaine Maxwell's client list.


----------



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

james4beach said:


> I said they are like tanks because, as I understood it, police actually don't have the ability to move these.


I understand what you meant -- or I believe I do, anyhow. But the big trucks are definitely not armour. The doors can be forced with one of those crowbars the police use for such need. Similarly the ignition can be forced and it just be started and driven away. Heck it could be cut up with a carbon arc gouge and an oxy torch in pieces small enough to put in a wheelbarrow. While painful and awkward to tow, it is not a 65 tonne Leapard bristling with machine guns and able to threaten whole buildings thousands of metres away with a giant cannon.

The main thing stopping the police from ripping the door off and dragging out the occupants is the need to not resort to that sort of violence, particularly with the trucks potentially full of toddlers and grandmothers and so forth.



> Peters, 35, from Leamington, Ont., says he won't fight arrest, but police will have to smash the cab window and pull him out to remove him from the line he's pledged to hold during the protest


ie: he won't resist arrest, accept he will resist arrest. Smart like bull, strong like fox, this one.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/truckers-peace-arrest-1.6356147


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gardner said:


> The main thing stopping the police from ripping the door off and dragging out the occupants is the need to not resort to that sort of violence, particularly with the trucks potentially full of toddlers and grandmothers and so forth.


Yeah it's disturbing that these extremists brought children to use as human shields. The government should also consider whether these children are safe with these parents, having deliberately put in harm's way. This setting was never appropriate for children, especially not after it was declared illegal and police told people to clear.

But yes I agree with your point, of course the trucks are nothing like tanks. They're just heavy and massively difficult to tow. The drivers have also probably disabled the vehicles in various ways to make towing more complex.

The fact remains that the vehicles were used tactically for offensive purposes during this event. Probably with coordination from extremists located at the headquarters / fortified sites, at Coventry.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

You do the crime you do the time.

Being a member of fringe Christian faith group is not an excuse for breaking the law.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Of course full agreement here. And criminal code of Canada allows for every single possible action needed to resolve the process. It was sufficient to simply enforce the law. Why did the traitor on Parliament Hill refused to supply 1,800 RCMP officers as requested by Ottawa police, who claimed to have a plan to clear the protests given those resources? War Measure Act is not necessary. From World War to couple trucks parked on a road.....
People are incredibly shortsighted. We live in common law system. Precedents are extremely important


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

HappilyRetired said:


> The media is going after people who donated $40 to a peaceful protest but they have no interest in Ghislaine Maxwell's client list.


Underrated comment

Not only the media but the government as well

Disgrace


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Police decided that downtown can't be blocked by partying on the weekend.
Instead it will be blocked by 100 Checkpoint Charlie's.
Nevertheless, downtown for residents still blocked


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

damian13ster said:


> Police decided that downtown can't be blocked by partying on the weekend.
> Instead it will be blocked by 100 Checkpoint Charlie's.


Good job, "freedom" people. Your actions have terrorized the people of Ontario, *and* restricted everyone's freedoms.

You've also hurt businesses, taking away their freedom to earn income, the freedom of residents to have a peaceful sleep, the freedom of people to go to work in peace.

What a bunch of selfish, ignorant pr*cks


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Trudeau is solely responsible for this. 
He is responsible for draconian measures that are no longer necessary.
He is responsible for breaking human rights.
He is responsible for inflaming protests.
He is responsible to fail to address issues.
He is responsible for the 100 checkpoint Charlie's in Ottawa.

Want piece and quiet? Get rid of wannabe dictator. Up until last week all that had to be done was to get rid of mandates. After emergency act was introduced - the traitor has to go.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Yeah it's disturbing that these extremists brought children to use as human shields.


During the Harris years a number of teachers brought their classes to protests as school trips.

They're not extremists, some are, most aren't.

The big issue is that the government isn't even willing to talk to them.
If discussion isn't an option, and protesting isn't an option, what is left?
I think that Trudeau, being the arrogant and divisive person he is, WANTS to push this too far.

Everywhere except Ottawa they managed to clear the protests using existing laws. They don't need the emergency Act.

Why is Ottawa different?
Trudeau is using these events to stoke strike and division. I just hope Freeland takes over sooner rather than later.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Why? Freeland is complicit. Her rhetoric is as hateful as Trudeau, and likely will vote for emergency act as well, which disqualifies her from any position of power


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Government vanishing political dissidents off the sidewalk at night and freezing bank accounts of ordinary people for supporting them

Meanwhile nothing is done to known clients of human trafficing and no freezing of bank accounts associated with the Panama papers etc because reasons

I think everyone knows this is wrong and just aren't speaking out because they are in disbelief. Canada became China overnight


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Trudeau is solely responsible for this.
> He is responsible for draconian measures that are no longer necessary.
> He is responsible for breaking human rights.
> He is responsible for inflaming protests.
> ...


What you still don't get is that people are free to disagree and protest but it doesn't justify creating chaos and fear. In other words, it's not because you blame Trudeau that it justifies the protesters actions.

Can't they see how the way they act doesn't make them being heard for what they are trying to defend? Instead it makes them being heard for creating chaos and fear. Obviously people won't support them, even if they may support their cause.

Lots of people aren't supporting their ways even though they support their cause. It shows that they are doing it wrong.

As I recall in Quebec when students protested for more than 6 months in 2012, it was all over the media, they were being heard. (Yes, even those "lefties" who are too weak to protest, as @MrMatt said, did it for more than 6 months)

You are free to make huge protests for how long you wish and it'll be heard. You just have to give your plan before taking the streets and you can't occupy the streets.


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

m3s said:


> Canada became China overnight


Trudeau has told us several times over the years who he really is. He praised Castro. He praised China. He got elected, gave $10 million to a terrorist and then bought the media with $700 million. When Covid first came along the very first thing he tried to do was give himself unlimited power to do anything, it was only voted down because he had a minority.

The very first time he was faced with a peaceful demonstration, rather than speak to them he ran and hid. Instead of acting like a leader and trying to diffuse the situation, he made it worse by calling everyone racist and Nazis.

Now he's gone further and is seizing the bank accounts of people who donated to a peaceful protest. He won't be happy until every single life is destroyed.

This is a money/investment forum and there are members here that think it's okay for the government to seize someone's assets because they disagree with the government. Not only are they okay with it, they are actively encouraging it.


----------



## kcowan2000 (Mar 24, 2020)

HappilyRetired said:


> Let me guess, you get your "facts" from CBC.


Dont forget CTV, also complicit.


fstamand said:


> Maybe it's time to join the 66% in the 21st century. You're slowing down the heard.


Trudeau has 30% popular support now. Without the silent NDP, he would be the opposition. He used the renamed War Measures Act on his own citizens. Despicable!


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Citizens group wins court-ordered freeze of convoy protest accounts, cryptocurrency

Article is behind a paywall but title says it all. Getting yummy.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

HappilyRetired said:


> This is a money/investment forum and there are members here that think it's okay for the government to seize someone's assets because they disagree with the government. Not only are they okay with it, they are actively encouraging it.


Just imagine if a conservative government froze the bank accounts of those who demonstrated solidarity with indigenous blockades of railways/pipelines

It sets a precedence and it will be used as the example around the world why self-custody of assets is important. I knew it was important for people living in authoritative regimes but I never imaged how easy it is for a democratic country like Canada to skip all due process to freeze accounts based only on suspicious activity alone

It's literally what country's like China and Russia do to silence and scare away political opposition. Canadians won't stand for that so Trudeau has only emboldened his opposition


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Yeah it's disturbing that these extremists brought children to use as human shields. The government should also consider whether these children are safe with these parents, having deliberately put in harm's way. This setting was never appropriate for children, especially not after it was declared illegal and police told people to clear.
> 
> But yes I agree with your point, of course the trucks are nothing like tanks. They're just heavy and massively difficult to tow. The drivers have also probably disabled the vehicles in various ways to make towing more complex.
> 
> The fact remains that the vehicles were used tactically for offensive purposes during this event. Probably with coordination from extremists located at the headquarters / fortified sites, at Coventry.


 ... tells you alot about these so-called "freedom-fighters-fakes" or is that flakies? [Their loudmouth supporters are for sure. ] Put the kids, women first in the battle-field. Hell, they even brought their dogs and cats/pets to fortify their "army".

ActualIy I'm kinda surprised they haven't called their grandpas, grandmas, uncles and aunties to participate ... to join the hot tub, BBQ roastings, fireworks, etc. like an outing for one big family.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494507714201931784


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Arrests are underway. Some protestors are being dragged away.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Yep, yummy - see my post #247 above too.


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

m3s said:


> Just imagine if a conservative government froze the bank accounts of those who demonstrated solidarity with indigenous blockades of railways/pipelines


I agree. The left likes to change the rules when it suits them, so it's time to make the left play by the same rules.

Anyone who supports a rail blockade should have their bank accounts frozen. When they complain tell them too bad, you made the new rules, we're just following them.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Yep, yummy - see my post #247 above too.


Yup......crypto that can't be seized is being seized........lol.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> Yup......crypto that can't be seized is being seized........lol.


 ... the crypto is worth only the 6 syllables being typed here. 

I don't think the judge gone far enough on this with the - freezing of the "corporation created 3 weeks ago", even the corp's bank accounts. I think there should be more liability held elsewhere.

_



...Late Thursday, Ontario Superior Court Justice Calum MacLeod granted an injunction to a private citizens' effort to stanch the flow of money that was a lifeline for the 21-day occupation of Ottawa.

MacLeod issued the sweeping order freezing *all the digital assets and bank accounts *of convoy leaders, several of whom are directors of a corporation they created three weeks ago. He ordered any banks, financial institutions, money service businesses, fundraising platforms or websites, cryptocurrency exchanges or platforms, and custodians of any cryptocurrency wallets to halt transactions related to the organizers' accounts and digital wallets. ...

Click to expand...

_


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> The big issue is that the government isn't even willing to talk to them.
> If discussion isn't an option, and protesting isn't an option, what is left?


The big issue is they have no intention to negotiate. Their points is clear: "we'll stand our ground until ALL mandates are ended". No place for negotiation.

It's not all about Trudeau.

City of Ottawa aren't able to negotiate with them.
Province of Ontario aren't able to negotiate with them.


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Trudeau had no intention to negotiate either. He could have at least tried and then could have accurately said "They won't listen", but instead he ran away and hid.

Trudeau proved that he's not a politician, he's just a bully in a position of power.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Yup......crypto that can't be seized is being seized........lol.


Yes as long as it gets deposited to a Canadian bank account or Canadian brokerage account

So which is it saggy ol man - crypto is used by criminals to skirt the law or crypto is easily traceable by the law?

Governments seizing bank accounts without due process is the kind of thing that speeds up crypto adoption


----------



## wayward__son (Nov 20, 2017)

this is some truly dystopian stuff. if you are wealthy and have half a brain, regardless of whether you have a dog in this fight, you are working on getting at least some of your wealth out of Canada. noone I know with money is looking at this and thinking "no worries, I'm on the right team, my wealth is safe", not even the leftiest of the lefties (at least among those i know). this kind of precedent can be used against any political opponent. if you worked hard for you money and you care to keep it, but never thought confiscation risk was worth killing brain cells over in a place like Canada, well this is a wake up call.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Has anyone had their bank accounts seized or are people in this thread willfully misrepresenting account freezing?

I just did some Google searching and did not find any financial asset seizing but perhaps i missed something?


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> Has anyone had their bank accounts seized or are people in this thread willfully misrepresenting account freezing?
> 
> I just did some Google searching and did not find any financial asset seizing but perhaps i missed something?


You didn't look very hard:

Banks have started to freeze accounts linked to the protests, Freeland says (msn.com)


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

These are the kind of protestors Trudeau likes










RCMP say in a news release they were called to the area early Thursday following reports that a group of people, some allegedly armed with axes, attacked security guards and smashed vehicle windows.

Police say when they tried to reach the worksite they were stopped by a downed tree, tar-covered stumps, boards with spikes sticking out of them and fires along the forest service road. When officers tried to work their way through the debris, police say several people threw "smoke bombs" and flaming sticks, injuring one officer.

When police made it to the site, they say they found "significant damage" to heavy machinery, other equipment and portable buildings.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> Has anyone had their bank accounts seized or are people in this thread willfully misrepresenting account freezing?
> 
> I just did some Google searching and did not find any financial asset seizing but perhaps i missed something?


 ... for sure, the "convoy corporation's" account was frozen. Not sure about the "organizers'" personal accounts though.

Yesterday, saw an article that a (named) trucking company had its bank account frozen unknown to its owner (supposedly) due to one of the employee's (known) participation in the protest. That's the kind of (unintended?) liability such firms get from being ensnared in this kind of movement or with such "employees". Need to look for link again to get the firm's name. 

The FINTRAC/crackdown web is gonna be casted wider and the fun begins.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> The big issue is they have no intention to negotiate. Their points is clear: "we'll stand our ground until ALL mandates are ended". No place for negotiation.


That's simply not true
If they actually met with them, they'd know that.



> It's not all about Trudeau.


Then why is the Ottawa protest having more problems.



> City of Ottawa aren't able to negotiate with them.


The Mayor disagrees with you








Ottawa mayor says truckers have agreed to leave residential neighbourhoods


The Mayor's Office told councillors that an agreement was reached through "backchannel negotiations" for vehicles to exit residential streets in the coming days.



ottawa.ctvnews.ca







> Province of Ontario aren't able to negotiate with them.


Ontario Police were quickly and easily able to deal with their protest.








Canadian police response under spotlight following Ambassador Bridge clearing | Globalnews.ca


Police in Windsor cleared the Ambassador Bridge, a vital trade route to Detroit, peacefully two days after the province of Ontario declared a state of emergency.




globalnews.ca






The problem with the Ottawa protest is the Federal government.
If they simply gave the Ottawa police the additional officers they requested, they could have cleaned it up nice and quickly. 
Face it, Trudeau wants a fight, he hasn't met with the protestors and falsely accuses them of all the popular smears. He didn't apply any resources to control the situation, he just waited and declared war on protestors.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> These are the kind of protestors Trudeau likes
> 
> RCMP say in a news release they were called to the area early Thursday following reports that a group of people, some allegedly armed with axes, attacked security guards and smashed vehicle windows.
> 
> ...


Those are violent terrorists, they're the kind of illegal protestor that Trudeau likes.

Trudeau won't go after them, he'd likely hire them if he could.
*Steven Guilbeault * To be fair, he's just a convicted criminal, not like he's a convicted terrorist, those he just hands millions of dollars.


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> That's simply not true
> If they actually met with them, they'd know that.
> 
> 
> ...


Quickly and easily? You've posted articles from February 13 and 14, that's more than two weeks after the beginning of the occupation by the truckers. I don't call this a pretty effective negotiation. I don't call this respectful protesters.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> Has anyone had their bank accounts seized or are people in this thread willfully misrepresenting account freezing?
> 
> I just did some Google searching and did not find any financial asset seizing but perhaps i missed something?


The Minister of Finance has said they are freezing accounts.
So either they're freezing accounts, or the Minister of Finance/Deputy PM is lying to us on national television.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

HappilyRetired said:


> You didn't look very hard:
> 
> Banks have started to freeze accounts linked to the protests, Freeland says (msn.com)


The link you shared has the word "freeze" in the title and does not contain the word "seize" in the body.

By claiming the government is "seizing" accounts when they are actually freezing them, you have demonstrated a fundamental dishonesty. Lying does not enhance your position, to say the least.

Twenty five years ago, I had my account frozen. It was brutal. Someone with the same name as me was doing bad things. My lawyer was able to correct the issue but it was a brutal few days.

Still, it's not like my account was seized.


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> The link you shared has the word "freeze" in the title and does not contain the word "seize" in the body.
> 
> By claiming the government is "seizing" accounts when they are actually freezing them, you have demonstrated a fundamental dishonesty. Lying does not enhance your position, to say the least.
> 
> ...


Now that we see how upset you are about confusing "seize" and "freeze", why don't you tell us how dishonest Trudeau was for calling the protesters Nazis and racists? Or does your outrage only work one way?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Quickly and easily? You've posted articles from February 13 and 14, that's more than two weeks after the beginning of the occupation by the truckers. I don't call this a pretty effective negotiation. I don't call this respectful protesters.


You're factually wrong.

The Ambassador bridge wasn't even blocked for a week before they cleared it. 
So it isn't "more than 2 weeks"

You claimed the city of Ottawa wasn't able to negotiate, but the Mayor DID negotiate.
Now you're saying that it wasn't effective, well did the mayor get some of what he wanted? If so, I'd say it WAS effective.

I don't care if they're respectful protestors, I think that's pretty much irrelevant, the government isn't being very respectful towards it's citizens, which is what brought this on.

Trudeau is literally accusing Jews of supporting Nazis in the House of Commons, doesn't get much less disrespectful than that.
When asked for an apology, he ran out of the room. That's disrespectful.


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> The Ambassador bridge wasn't even blocked for a week before they cleared it.
> So it isn't "more than 2 weeks"


More than two weeks in Ottawa.

About the Ambassador bridge, again, it was cleared only because consequences were now up to $100,000 in fines and up to 1 year in prison.

Negotiations didn't make them move, consequences to their actions made them move.


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

You want data and polls, here you go:









Blockade Backlash: Three-in-four Canadians tell convoy protesters, ‘Go Home Now’ - Angus Reid Institute


Two-thirds say Justin Trudeau’s conduct has “worsened” situation; several public figures condemned February 14, 2022 – If the goal of the Freedom Convoy was to capture the attention of millions




angusreid.org


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> You want data and polls, here you go:


For those protesting legally, they should be permitted to protest.
Criminally charging them is not acceptable if they haven't committed a crime.

My view is, and remains the protest is dumb.

I think local police should enforce the law, and political leaders should discuss the issues with the protestors.
These protestors represent millions of Canadians, to not even attempt to understand their concerns, as wrong as you think they are, is a problem.
I


Also while I'm more pro vaxx than the government, I think the mandates are not appropriate at this time.

Also, with only a few hundred cases, the compensation should be flying out the door to help those who were injured.
There are people waiting months without proper support.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/covid19-vaccine-astrazeneca-guillain-barre-syndrome-1.6340248


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> For those protesting legally, they should be permitted to protest.
> Criminally charging them is not acceptable if they haven't committed a crime.


It's not acceptable but it sends a message. Oppose us and you will be punished.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I have no outrage and don't normally bother with people like yourself who use ad hominem attacks. In this case, since this thread is light on facts, I will inject some reality into the discussion.

Late December 2019 - Media starts reporting the existence of COVID. Some media started reporting it in January 2020, at which time right wing media (American) reported it as fictional liberal scare tactics. Arguably, a couple of left wing media outlets were over representing it by the end of January.

Who remembers Herman Cain? He said COVID doesn't exist. A few months later, he was killed by COVID.

Early 2020 - Vast amounts of government money were poured on pharma to produce a vaccine. The effort was as unprecedented as the public spend.

Fall 2020 - The FDA approves the first COVID vaccine for Phizer. None of the studies or approval data were made public, despite the massive public funds fueling the effort.

Now, in 2022, neither the FDA study or the pharma studies have been published. Moderna has said they will consider requests for study data at the end of 2022. Further, Moderna tells us fulfilling those requests will take up to a year. Moderna will release their data a full year before Phizer. Moderna has the earliest access to information.

The current situation:

- If a study is single sourced and not peer reviewed, it is not science by definition

- Nearly all of the science on COVID is coming out of Europe, although some does come out of the US and a tiny bit out of Canada.

- We know the efficacy of the first two doses of mRNA vaccine is gone after about 6 months, based on credible European studies. (people who had two doses of either mRNA vaccine six or more months prior to a COVID infection have the same survival rate as unvaccinated people)

- We know the efficacy of a booster dose is limited to about two months.

- We SPECULATE the efficacy of a second booster is likely limited to about one month.

- We know that t-cells still exist in people who had SARS (the brother of COVID) almost two decades ago.

- We know that natural immunity is almost certainly going to be vastly better than vaccinated immunity.

- The body has two immune systems. The mucosal box (sinus, back of throat, top of lungs) is separate from the main body's immune system. If an infection is limited to the mucosal box, it will not generate the t-cells necessary for lasting immunity. This is why people with a light reaction are prone to reinfection. People with a heavy reaction to COVID infection very likely have long term immunity.

- An Omicron infection is the best immunity generating mechanism we currently have. It's the vaccine we could not produce.

- We know the Canadian government put high pressure on people to take the vaccine and this decision was made based on unscientific data.

- We know that publishing any of the studies in the US would trigger a flurry of right wing lies that would have cost a lot of lives.

- We know that nobody wants to be pressured into taking anything, much less a subcutaneous injection of hastily designed, non-scientific, vaccine.

My opinion:

I believe the correct thing happened but it happened the wrong way. The honest approach would have involved Trudeau telling Canada that all of us taking the vaccine is the correct path forward, based on risk analysis of many unknowns. I don't have a lot of confidence that an objective risk analysis was ever done.

The thing is, less than 80% of people taking the vaccine is an entirely different scenario than more than 80% of people taking it. The best projections of the time showed we needed 80% herd immunity to stop COVID. That was with the Wuhan variant.

I would not have been against federally mandated vaccines. That is not to say I would have liked it but there was an argument for it.

At this point:

The vaccine phase is over. Every one of us is going to get Omicron. Most of us have had it, by now. Those who are vaccinated may not have noticed. Those who are not vaccinated will have a much higher survival rate than they would have during earlier waves.

I believe we are about at the time when we need to stop fighting COVID. That is my opinion and it is based on open science. The science is not absolutely clear but this is where it is headed.

Finland is a key case study. They stopped COVID restrictions weeks ago. They decided to let Omicron sweep through their population, based on science of the moment.

Lastly, the better a country does at masking/vaccine/hand washing/crowd limiting, the slower the Omicron wave will go down. It is an inverse relation. That's why Omicron is plummeting in Finland (nearly done) while the Canadian wave is reducing slowly.

I believe stopping all COVID restrictions at this time is the correct approach but history will judge if this opinion is correct. Further, I still mask and wash my hands, as per public health directives. It is important that we follow the guidelines, even if we don't agree witth them (as I currently do not).

As for how the pandemic was handled in Canada, I do not see any travesty. In fact, I'm not sure it could have been handled a lot better so I will give Prime Minister Trudeau a passing grade, despite not respecting him on other issues.


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> For those protesting legally, they should be permitted to protest.
> Criminally charging them is not acceptable if they haven't committed a crime.





HappilyRetired said:


> It's not acceptable but it sends a message. Oppose us and you will be punished.


The poll is about the truckers and their followers in Ottawa who are currently part of an illegal protest.

There are protests for the same cause all around Canada - legal protests - and no one are against their rights to protest.


----------



## wayward__son (Nov 20, 2017)

TomB16 said:


> Late December 2019 - Media starts reporting the existence of COVID. Some media started reporting it in January 2020, at which time right wing media (American) reported it as fictional liberal scare tactics. Arguably, a couple of left wing media outlets were over representing it by the end of January.


I think this is not accurate. As I recall the lefties and WHO had a very mild initial reaction to COVID-19, saying everyone should generally keep living normally, definitely no travel bans warranted because that would be racist, and by the way there's no need for the general public to wear masks all day, they don't really work anyway. Meanwhile the right wing nuts were in full prepper mode, buying full on gas masks and saying ban all flights from China, shoot em down if we have to. That's my recollection anyway. Somehow everything flipped at some point and TBH I am still a bit perplexed by it all


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

The only thing we share, with regard to the media message of the day, is the discouraging of mask wearing in the first few weeks. That was a mistake that I suspect was based on wishing to preserve supply for healthcare staff, as opposed to any science. So, it was likely based on dishonesty, in my view.

There are a ton of news reports on YouTube, if you wish to review.

Do you define "leftie" as anyone who does not share your opinion? The reason I ask is because you are relaying the message I was hearing from fox, at the time. That's not what the rest of the world was following. 

To be fair, the right shut down air travel when the left clearly would not have. In the very early days, shutting down air travel was clearly the correct course of action.

Now that we have hind sight, vaccination was clearly the correct course of action. At least, prior to the existence of omicron. Vaccines have proven themselves safe and effective over billions of uses.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Here is a reality check from two years ago, a month after COVID was first detected.


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Speaker Pelosi Visits SF's Chinatown To Show Support Amid Coronavirus Fears - YouTube


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> The poll is about the truckers and their followers in Ottawa who are currently part of an illegal protest.
> 
> There are protests for the same cause all around Canada - legal protests - and no one are against their rights to protest.


The problem is that from the start Trudeau intended to use this protest as a divisive political tool.

When they were on their way, and they were simply trucks on the road, he decided he'd never meet with them, never even listen to their demands.
Then after weeks of ignoring the protest, he simply declares it illegal and goes nuclear by declaring war on them.

Where was the progressive enforcement? No tickets, no enforcement action, no meetings

There was no need to activate the emergencies act, and I hope there is heavy fallout.
Also the political games to delay the debate on the act is BS.

Wait weeks, say it's an emergency and fire off all the actions as quickly as possible, before it can be debated in parliment.

Trudeau saw his power grab and took it.

Ontario stopped the Ambassador bridge, and seized funds, but at least they got a court order.
The Feds skipped that whole judicially thing and just started doing stuff.

How is it that the Feds seem so much less able to act than Ontario?
Ontario can clear the bridge blockade in a week, Ottawa takes a month and activates the War measures act..


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> - If a study is single sourced and not peer reviewed, it is not science by definition


If the study is created using the scientific method it is by definition science.
If the study is peer reviewed, but does not use the scientific method, it is not science.

Sourcing and peer review are not required to be "science", though that may be basis for legitimate questions on its correctness.



> As for how the pandemic was handled in Canada, I do not see any travesty. In fact, I'm not sure it could have been handled a lot better so I will give Prime Minister Trudeau a passing grade, despite not respecting him on other issues.


I'd have to agree, I think Canada ended up with an excellent response.

The problem however is the mishandling of opposition to governments policy, they've done a very poor job there.


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> The problem is that from the start Trudeau intended to use this protest as a divisive political tool.
> 
> When they were on their way, and they were simply trucks on the road, he decided he'd never meet with them, never even listen to their demands.
> Then after weeks of ignoring the protest, he simply declares it illegal and goes nuclear by declaring war on them.
> ...


Just like when Covid first came along and Trudeau tried to give himself unlimited power. If not for a minority government he would have succeeded.

So, he tried again with the truck protest. He ignored it completely and then invoked the War Measures Act once he thought enough time had passed.

This wasn't an accident or an oversight. It was deliberate.


----------



## wayward__son (Nov 20, 2017)

TomB16 said:


> Do you define "leftie" as anyone who does not share your opinion? The reason I ask is because you are relaying the message I was hearing from fox, at the time. That's not what the rest of the world was following.


Not sure what you are on about. I voted Green in the last federal election and have never voted right of NDP if you must know


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

MrBlackhill said:


> You want data and polls, here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


MrMatt facts always seem to come from a cracker jack box.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

And just like that, the "Freedom convoy" found freedom.

Well done Trudeau ! 👏👏


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

fstamand said:


> And just like that, the "Freedom convoy" found freedom.
> 
> Well done Trudeau ! 👏👏


Maybe the bully coward can come out of hiding now.

What will he do if they decide to go on strike? The economy will grind to a halt. All the threats in the world will be meaningless.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

MrMatt said:


> The problem is that from the start Trudeau intended to use this protest as a divisive political tool.
> 
> When they were on their way, and they were simply trucks on the road, he decided he'd never meet with them, never even listen to their demands.
> Then after weeks of ignoring the protest, he simply declares it illegal and goes nuclear by declaring war on them.
> ...


Negative. Trudeau allowed it for several days, he supported the fact that you can actually legally protest in Canada. While the cons were all having parties with these extremists.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

HappilyRetired said:


> Maybe the bully coward can come out of hiding now.
> 
> What will he do if they decide to go on strike? The economy will grind to a halt. All the threats in the world will be meaningless.


He has been at the house of commons several times, what planet are you on?
Why would they go on strike? They have been partying on Wellington st for 20 days and the economy hasn't "halted". Back to work lazy bums!!


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

fstamand said:


> Negative. Trudeau allowed it for several days, he supported the fact that you can actually legally protest in Canada. While the cons were all having parties with these extremists.


Extremists? They broke traffic laws and had a bouncy castle for kids.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Protesters are using kids as shields, they put their kids in front line facing the police officers, what a shame.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

HappilyRetired said:


> Extremists? They broke traffic laws and had a bouncy castle for kids.


The "extreme" position is believing in human rights.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Protesters are using kids as shields, they put their kids in front line facing the police officers, what a shame.


I agree, at least they weren't taking class trips to protests.








7th graders go on field trip to protest with OCAP


Grade 7 and 8 students at a west-end alternative school took an unusual field trip last week: They headed downtown to a protest hosted by the Ontario Coalition…




nationalpost.com





How's that for whataboutism.

The kids aren't human shields unless the police were intending to use violence.
Heck I thought the Liberals were considering lowering the voting age, but they just made a motion to deny citizens under 18 the right to participate in a protest.

What about the real illegal protests and terrorism?


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/rcmp-coastal-gaslink-bc-violence-investigating-1.6356257



I'm far more scared of people using weapons to attack infrastructure, than people protesting while their kids play in bouncy castles.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

fstamand said:


> Negative. Trudeau allowed it for several days, he supported the fact that you can actually legally protest in Canada. While the cons were all having parties with these extremists.


Yes, the government was incredibly lenient with this. I can't think of any other country that would be so relaxed about protesters basically taking hold of core government areas, right around central government buildings, and where politicians work.

This was astounding leniency and restraint by both the police and government. The protesters had ample time to make their point, voice their views, and they got lots of media coverage for it.

Legal protest has always been allowed in Canada, and these guys were allowed to protest as well. I don't think that environmentalists or indigenous protesters were ever given this much leeway.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

How about India? You know, where the protests lasted for 11 months, involved farm equipment, and any crackdown by government was publicly criticized by our dictator?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> How about India? You know, where the protests lasted for 11 months, involved farm equipment, and any crackdown by government was publicly criticized by our dictator?


But Trudeau supported those protests, so they were okay.









Official compares Freedom Convoy donations to 'terrorist financing'


'If you are a member of a pro-Trump movement who is donating hundreds of thousands of dollars, and millions of dollars to this kind of thing, then you ought to be worried,' said Lametti.




www.dailymail.co.uk




Apparently the Justice Minister admitted they're using anti-terrorism powers against the protestors.









U.S. donors to protests 'ought to be worried'


Justice Minister David Lametti discusses the government's new legislation to target and freeze the accounts of donors to protest blockades.




www.ctvnews.ca




at 3:50, he admits it's politically motivated. If you're pro Trump, you should be worried.

To me, that's astonishing, what next, will donating to PPC mean you can have your accounts seized?

Face it, this has nothing to do with the stated purpose. Trudeau is using this as an excuse to attack his political opponents. The ministers are openly admitting it, you support a cause they don't like, they're coming after you.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> But Trudeau supported those protests, so they were okay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, precisely. That's why the introduction of Emergency Act is treason. It should be prosecuted to full extent of the law.

They are literally destroying the very values that made Canada what it is today, and irrevocably destroying fabric of society and democracy - all for politics


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

james4beach said:


> Yes, the government was incredibly lenient with this. I can't think of any other country that would be so relaxed about protesters basically taking hold of core government areas, right around central government buildings, and where politicians work.


CHAZ. Not only did they take over several blocks, they murdered people.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> at 3:50, he admits it's politically motivated. If you're pro Trump, you should be worried.
> 
> To me, that's astonishing, what next, will donating to PPC mean you can have your accounts seized?
> 
> Face it, this has nothing to do with the stated purpose. Trudeau is using this as an excuse to attack his political opponents. The ministers are openly admitting it, you support a cause they don't like, they're coming after you.


This will completely backfire in the longterm

It's trending outside of Canada and it's a bad look


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494885897577271299


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

It doesn't matter. It will be removed early this week and Trudeau's plan will have succeeded.

Excellent work. Ottawa can get back to being boring again and the extremists can go cry for mommy elsewhere.


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

fstamand said:


> It doesn't matter. It will be removed early this week and Trudeau's plan will have succeeded.
> 
> Excellent work. Ottawa can get back to being boring again and the extremists can go cry for mommy elsewhere.


The truckers have shown everyone what many people already knew...that Trudeau is a coward and a bully and will use the full power of the government to punish people who don't agree with him. The truckers can't win but at least they exposed Trudeau's true colours to the world. Even the dishonest left media in the US is shocked by Trudeau's actions.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Ram Ranch is the unofficial musical anthem of the Ottawa mob. It is being blasted on their hacked communication channels.

Ram Ranchers.....Ride on....see you.....👀.....I could never go with you no matter if you want me to.

Patriotic Canadians are fighting against the mob in other ways......good on you burly, bearded Ottawa guy.

_“I never thought the words ‘Ram Ranch' would mean so much to me," said one Ottawa resident, a burly, bearded guy who blends into the convoy crowds to steal as much food and supplies as he can, which he then gives to people experiencing homelessness in the local area. *“You want some hand warmers? I’ve got four boxes of them.” *_









An Ode To Gay Cowboy Orgies Is The Anthem For The Ottawa Resistance


The Ram Ranch Resistance is trolling anti–vaccine mandate truckers to confusion.




www.buzzfeednews.com


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

m3s said:


> This will completely backfire in the longterm
> 
> It's trending outside of Canada and it's a bad look
> 
> ...


As much as I believe each crypto coin has zero inherent value, the networks themselves are great for authoritarian countries like Canada. Storing money in a pillow is as effective as a hard drive, but transactions are harder


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Ram Ranch is the unofficial anthem of the Ottawa mob.


That's pretty funny

Guess it'll be fair game to troll any movement from the left as well now since they have so many

Using double agents to instigate protests backfired for the RCMP before


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

In less than 2 years we went from "2 weeks to slow the curve" to "we'll freeze your bank account for having the wrong opinion"

It's always been about power. Covid was just the excuse.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

If you donate to terrorist groups you might have something to worry about.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Enabling Act starting to circulate on social media. About two years late since Trudeau wanted it in March 2020 but people finally seeing the parallels


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> If you donate to terrorist groups you might have something to worry about.


I don't think so, Trudeau gave millions to terrorists and he doesn't seem very worried.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Authoritarian Canada "banning" Bitcoin donations is going exactly like the US "banning" alcohol did or the Catholics "banning" sex


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494704248055029761


----------



## wayward__son (Nov 20, 2017)

as a left leaning Green party voting freedom loving Bitcoin enthusiast I am feeling pretty conflicted these days I have to say


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

wayward__son said:


> as a left leaning Green party voting freedom loving Bitcoin enthusiast I am feeling pretty conflicted these days I have to say


Come over to Cardano then. Bitcoin UTXO design and 99.9% better for the environment. And you can even plant trees

Thinking Bitcoin is left or right leaning because of how some people use it is pretty absurd


----------



## wayward__son (Nov 20, 2017)

m3s said:


> Come over to Cardano then. Bitcoin UTXO design and 99.9% better for the environment. And you can even plant trees
> 
> Thinking Bitcoin is left or right leaning because of how some people use it is pretty absurd


I’m with you. Conflicted is the wrong word. Dismayed is better — dismayed that Bitcoin can’t find nearly the support on my “team” that it’s getting on the other, and that my leftie comrades seem to care less and less for freedom these days.

Too long for this thread but I have no problem squaring environmentalism with Bitcoin proof of work.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

wayward__son said:


> Too long for this thread but I have no problem squaring environmentalism with Bitcoin proof of work.


There are many reasons but the left doesn't want to hear them

Texas is using it to monetize unused power between peak load which makes renewables far more cost effective and manageable.
Digging shiny rocks out of the ground to ship around the world and store in a vault uses far more power

But things like Cardano will just be even better as long as it stays decentralized and secure


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Here are Geraldo's comments on Fox News, where he points out that right-wing media is inciting these activities.
​Protesters are taking away the right of the homeowner to sleep in peace.​The right of the shopkeeper to do business. The right of the auto workers​to get parts.​​It is conservative media [Fox News etc] that has gone from support to​incitement. These people are violating the rights of others in Canada.​The polls that I see, Hobb, Leger, Ipsos, these polls all show between​65% - 69% of Canadians oppose these truckers.​​Because this has gone on long enough.​​


----------



## kcowan2000 (Mar 24, 2020)

james4beach said:


> ...
> 65% - 69% of Canadians oppose these truckers.​​Because this has gone on long enough.​​


Mostly the success of the Trudeau paid media coverage!


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Anyone who still watches CNN/Fox news and thinks everything is polarized right or left is a complete moron

People's lives have been disrupted for 2 years james not 3 weeks. The suddenly outraged laptop class is clueless


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)




----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

kcowan2000 said:


> Mostly the success of the Trudeau paid media coverage!


Trudeau is also paying to rig the polls of Maru Group and Angus Reid Institute, I guess?


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

james4beach said:


> Here are Geraldo's comments on Fox News, where he points out that right-wing media is inciting these activities.
> ​


​Geraldo is a flaming leftist. But I did notice something...you suddenly find Fox News credible when you agree with their opinion on something.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

m3s said:


> View attachment 22834
> from post #317


 ... . i hope you realize the "media" is just a "messenger" of news. How you interpret it is up to you. 

And with that analogy, you're onto something ... for a start, wonder who were the "group of users" of Epstein's services?


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Gerardo... the voice of reason.

This is a sign of the apocalypse.


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> Trudeau is also paying to rig the polls of Maru Group and Angus Reid Institute, I guess?


Critical thinking doesn't appear to be one of your better skills. If people believe what the paid off Trudeau media tells them, those beliefs will reflect in polls regardless of how fairly they are run.

That's just basic common sense yet somehow you can't grasp it.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I used to think the extreme right were cult-like. Now I know them to be a dangerous cult. They are a specific group of people and they seem to believe anything from a few media sources, as long as it is destructive. Right wing media follows them, as much as it controls them.

It's OK to be against some things or even lots of things but if you're in favor of every idea that hurts other people, you are a seized axle on the national train, holding back the rest of the population.

This problem will get worse, as long as we have lousy food, toxic work environments, and anger emitters in the media.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Further....

The rhetoric in this thread and others is extreme. As a reference, I recommend anyone interested in a better life attend a fitness event: running, cycling, swim-meet. Even just as an observer. You will notice a total absence of rhetoric, politics, inflammatory statements.

I'm glad I got back on my bike to improve my fitness during retirement. It is a key to good mental health.

Best wishes to all.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

james4beach said:


> Here are Geraldo's comments on Fox News, where he points out that right-wing media is inciting these activities.
> ​Protesters are taking away the right of the homeowner to sleep in peace.​The right of the shopkeeper to do business. The right of the auto workers​to get parts.​​It is conservative media [Fox News etc] that has gone from support to​incitement. These people are violating the rights of others in Canada.​The polls that I see, Hobb, Leger, Ipsos, these polls all show between​65% - 69% of Canadians oppose these truckers.​​Because this has gone on long enough.​​


Where are those rights indicated?
Bodily autonomy and voluntary consent to medical intervention are an actual rights.

'Sleep in peace' sadly is not, or I would have to sue a lot of people 
Shopkeeper can do business. Not all businesses decided to close, and there weren't reports of any looting or damages. Yes, there are morons yelling about masks.
Right of autoworkers to get parts -- holy ****, human rights definitely got expanded recently - great job

Bodily autonomy and voluntary consent to medical intervention are multiple orders of magnitude more important than whatever you have listed, and you would have to be insane to try to argue otherwise


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> The rhetoric in this thread and others is extreme. As a reference, I recommend anyone interested in a better life attend a fitness event: running, cycling, swim-meet. Even just as an observer. You will notice a total absence of rhetoric, politics, inflammatory statements.


So you call those who disagree with you extremists and dangerous cult members and then immediately follow up telling people to not be extreme.

Do as I say, not as I do. 😁


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Yeah, we get you're addicted to misinformation porn. Like with the self-proclaimed "I'M OUTTA HERE!" and boom, you're back on this forum.


----------



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

HappilyRetired said:


> Critical thinking doesn't appear to be one of your better skills. If people believe what the paid off Trudeau media tells them, those beliefs will reflect in polls regardless of how fairly they are run.
> 
> That's just basic common sense yet somehow you can't grasp it.


Fair enough, as you wish. Let's add more critical thinking. Your point would work out if EVERY Canadian was reading ONLY one news source, the one that you claim to be rigged. Turns out not everybody reads the same news source and it also turns out that people reads more than one news source. So, on aggregate, people read information from different perspectives, different presentations, different biases.


















Canada Anglophones offline news sources 2022 | Statista


The most popular offline news source among English-speaking Canadians was CTV news as of February 2022, accounting for a share of 33 percent.




www.statista.com





What are YOUR sources of information, UNBIASED? It's easy to claim media is biased, as they all have some level of bias obviously, so I can throw the same to you.






Media Bias in Canada


Bias means supporting or opposing something or someone in an unfair way, regardless of the evidence. Media bias is when information spread by media or a news ou...




www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

That really isn't proof of variety. Global, CTV, CBC, are CNN are all left of center and heavily biased.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

We have a large group of people who will cling to misinformation like life saving medicine. I'm talking about both provable misinformation and outright ridiculous misinformation. They repeat that garbage among themselves like an echo chamber. That is a cult.

A surprising number of my American friends believe Hillary personally killed Jeffrey Epstein and also that Hillary was abusing and sex trafficking young girls out of the basement of a Washington DC pizza parlor.

There is something more than just disinformation happening here. Not only do they believe it, they have internalized it and are absolutely incensed about these and the rest of the river of lies. They are programmed to block anything that conflicts with the misinformation stream. No wonder so many on the extreme right are prone to violence.

This is the definition of a cult.

Now this cult is spreading into Canada. The American cult is nurturing the Canadian side like a union helping another to certify.

We aren't going to be able to have a reasonable conversation with this cancer growing in our society.


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

MrBlackhill said:


> Fair enough, as you wish. Let's add more critical thinking. Your point would work out if EVERY Canadian was reading ONLY one news source, the one that you claim to be rigged. Turns out not everybody reads the same news source and it also turns out that people reads more than one news source. So, on aggregate, people read information from different perspectives, different presentations, different biases.
> 
> View attachment 22839
> 
> ...


I don't know why you're still trying to prove your point, facts are only facts if they suits him.


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

You forgot to mention the 10's of millions of leftists who think that Trump was a Russian spy. And who don't believe, in spite of verified evidence, that the Democrats funded the fake Russian dossier. 

No one believed Pizzagate other than a few idiots.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

HappilyRetired said:


> You forgot to mention the 10's of millions of leftists who think that Trump was a Russian spy. And who don't believe, in spite of verified evidence, that the Democrats funded the fake Russian dossier.
> 
> No one believed Pizzagate other than a few idiots.


Trump was never a spy. He was too busy groping women and giving hush money to porn stars. Is that what it would take for you to appreciate Justin more?


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Toronto coalition against 'freedom convoy' holds rally at city hall



> _Published Sunday, February 20, 2022 2:10PM EST
> Members of a group who say they're in support of downtown Ottawa residents held an anti-freedom convoy protest outside Toronto City Hall Sunday.
> 
> The event is scheduled from 1 p.m. to 3 p.m. and organizers say it will be intentionally “non-confrontational.” Shortly after the event began, there appeared to be over 100 participants.
> ...


 ... oh, looks like there're gonna be p(l)aybacks. 

I wonder when Tory is gonna to have a talk with Watson about this man-made city-to-city contagion.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> We have a large group of people who will cling to misinformation like life saving medicine. I'm talking about both provable misinformation and outright ridiculous misinformation. They repeat that garbage among themselves like an echo chamber. That is a cult.
> 
> A surprising number of my American friends believe Hillary personally killed Jeffrey Epstein and also that Hillary was abusing and sex trafficking young girls out of the basement of a Washington DC pizza parlor.
> 
> ...


The only reason is that mass media and Ottawa police, and politicians spread misinformation too.
Very easily verifiable misinformation. And therefore the trust is lost. Now, the true question is, if one doesn't have 3-4h a day to browse through multiple biased news sources in order to see information from multiple angles, how does one find out facts?


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

HappilyRetired said:


> You forgot to mention the 10's of millions of leftists who think that Trump was a Russian spy. And who don't believe, in spite of verified evidence, that the Democrats funded the fake Russian dossier.
> 
> No one believed Pizzagate other than a few idiots.


And who believe you have over 50% of chance of ending up in hospital if infected with COVID.
Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor spreading misinformation that 100,000 kids are currently in hospitals, most in serious conditions. Sadly the misinformation starts from the very top


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

TomB16 said:


> We have a large group of people who will cling to misinformation like life saving medicine. I'm talking about both provable misinformation and outright ridiculous misinformation. They repeat that garbage among themselves like an echo chamber. That is a cult.
> 
> A surprising number of my American friends believe Hillary personally killed Jeffrey Epstein and also that Hillary was abusing and sex trafficking young girls out of the basement of a Washington DC pizza parlor.
> . . .
> Now this cult is spreading into Canada. The American cult is nurturing the Canadian side like a union helping another to certify.


You're right, it's happening. As you point out, this originates from an *American cult*.

It appears to have started when Trump was running for office in 2016 and it ramped up in the following years. I was living in the US and this is when I first started seeing conspiracy theories and wacko narratives everywhere. This is when my coworkers also started sharing stories about their fathers seemingly losing their minds and getting into these circles.

Fox News and Facebook were frequently cited, as places where their dads were getting brainwashed.

I wish we understood the causes. It started long before the covid. I suspect that social media and alternative/conspiracy web sites play a big role here, but so does American right wing media machinery (like Fox News) which has taken an extremist turn in recent years.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

damian13ster said:


> 'Sleep in peace' sadly is not, or I would have to sue a lot of people


I don't know what trailer park for the deaf you live in but, where I live, we have a bylaw called "disturbing the peace".

Aboyt ten years ago, a neighbor got a puppy. It sat outside and cried every night for a couple of weeks, at which time the neighbors asked him to bring it in. He responded with all the understanding of a Freedom Convoy organizer and enjoyed a $500 ticket per day for a while after that.

Teenagers who slow roll through the park with the windows down and the stereo set on kill can also enjoy a noise ticket.

Part of law and order is not allowing a small group to ruin the lives of a large group. Without it, a few a-holes would crap in the sandbox and tell the other kids to clean it up.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Our dictator PM just enacted the martial law without a vote to punish the working class who dared to have a different opinion than him and James thinks that Fox News is the real problem 😁 😁


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

damian13ster said:


> And who believe you have over 50% of chance of ending up in hospital if infected with COVID.


The odds of needing hospital care are about one in 20, for people who get covid but it depends on the vaccination rate and viral level in the community. Areas like the American south have higher hospitalization and mortality rates than areas with high vaccination rates.

Meanwhile, death rates vary from about 0.3 to 2%.

My wife is an RN and she tells me the ICU at her hospital has three people who were vaccinated and about 180 who were not.

I am good with people chosing to not vaccinate. What I am not good with is hospitals that delay critical surgeries for cancer patients while they focus on treating covid patients who chose not to vaccinate. Everyone should be treated but it is wrong to prioritize someone who makes a choice that is public resource intensive over someone who is struggling with a problem that was not of their chosing.

Smoking is the same deal. I would treat someone's COPD but I would prioritize it below cancer and other surgeries.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> I don't know what trailer park for the deaf you live in but, where I live, we have a bylaw called "disturbing the peace".
> 
> Aboyt ten years ago, a neighbor got a puppy. It sat outside and cried every night for a couple of weeks, at which time the neighbors asked him to bring it in. He responded with all the understanding of a Freedom Convoy organizer and enjoyed a $500 ticket per day for a while after that.
> 
> ...


Yeah, it is a misdemeanor. And should be prosecuted as such. No War Measure Act needed.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> The odds of needing hospital care are about one in 20, for people who get covid but it depends on the vaccination rate and viral level in the community. Areas like the American south have higher hospitalization and mortality rates than areas with high vaccination rates.
> 
> Meanwhile, death rates vary from about 0.3 to 2%.
> 
> ...


Your lowest fatality rate quoted is 0.3%. Canada has 38 million people. 0.3% is over 1 million deaths. Canada only has 35,000 fatalities.

I expect that the rest of your "stats" are just as accurate.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

TomB16 said:


> I am good with people chosing to not vaccinate. What I am not good with is hospitals that delay critical surgeries for cancer patients while they focus on treating covid patients who chose not to vaccinate. Everyone should be treated but it is wrong to prioritize someone who makes a choice that is public resource intensive over someone who is struggling with a problem that was not of their chosing.


This. Exactly this. Thanks.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

My stats are better than both your math and your reading comprehension.

I will concede that I was citing unvaccinated stats. The numbers are good because of our vaccine program. You can thank prime minister Trudeau for that.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

TomB16 said:


> You can thank prime minister Trudeau for that.


Sure can

So @TomB16 are you Mexican, living in Mexico, using a Mexican VPN or what?

You liked Trudeau so much you had to leave?


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

M3s, ask me how I know you are entirely out of arguments. lol!


How come nobody is talking about those 35K deaths and how the vast bulk of them are unvaccinated people?

Each time we have a new pandemic, our vaccination ratio will go up because a percent or two of the anti-vax folks will be transferred off this mortal coil. Over time, the population will get smarter. DarWIN.

Why would we beg anyone to take a vaccine? You make your decision and you take your chance.

I don't want anyone to die but it is upsetting that people on both sides are trying to force their opinion on the other side.

I'm for freedom of choice, even if it costs people their lives, and I will likely be the first in line to take the next round of vaccine.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

That's fair approach.
The problem is that our PM is not for freedom of choice. he is not for bodily autonomy. He is not for human rights. He is not for any kind of freedom.
Our PM stands for hate, division, segregation, stigmatization, abuse of power, and authoritarianism. 
The values didn't reflect Canada until couple years ago. Now that has changed


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Well, if you're talented enough, run for office and replace him. Or are you waiting Mr. Pollievre to stick out his neck instead?


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

How many of you anti-vaxers were spamming the "vaccination causes sterility" talking point, last year? Be honest.

Several of my friends sent me detailed email that explained how a hospital in Montreal has not had a childbirth in months and the government is keeping it quiet. Several loads of this fecal insanity dribbled into my inbox in October 2021, or so.

It is difficult to comprehend a group of people so adamant about being wrong on nearly every topic.

I'm OK with someone choosing to not vaccinate. There are even legitimate reasons to avoid the vaccine. The problem occurs when anti-vaxers start talking and it becomes clear they are not healthy mentally.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

TomB16 said:


> M3s, ask me how I know you are entirely out of arguments. lol!


You didn't answer the question

I'm not anti-vax. I was fully vaccinated long before it was available to Canadians. I also was restricted from travelling home for years even though I would be in a car and visiting a rural area.

Meanwhile you can fly to Mexico for fun while saying the Canadian peasants need to stop complaining and just get back to work


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

HappilyRetired said:


> Your lowest fatality rate quoted is 0.3%. Canada has 38 million people. 0.3% is over 1 million deaths. Canada only has 35,000 fatalities.
> 
> I expect that the rest of your "stats" are just as accurate.


0.3% of 38 million is 114,000

And anyways the fatality is the number of deaths divided by the number of cases. It has nothing to do with population.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

wayward__son said:


> as a left leaning Green party voting freedom loving Bitcoin enthusiast I am feeling pretty conflicted these days I have to say





wayward__son said:


> I’m with you. Conflicted is the wrong word. Dismayed is better — dismayed that Bitcoin can’t find nearly the support on my “team” that it’s getting on the other, and that my leftie comrades seem to care less and less for freedom these days.
> 
> Too long for this thread but I have no problem squaring environmentalism with Bitcoin proof of work.


Haha, same here. I voted Green in the last election; not so much because I liked their platform, but because all of the major parties were completely intolerable. I also voted NDP provincially.

The left thinks Bitcoin is a scam, but they're addicted to magic banker money inflating their house value, so they can sit at home on their laptops and spew contempt for the working class. If the government could print Bitcoin and hand it out to them, I'm sure they would think it was the greatest thing ever.

I can't believe I'm considering voting Conservative next election, but that goes to show how the left has become an absolute joke in this country.


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## wayward__son (Nov 20, 2017)

^^^ my spirit brother. I have for a very long time viewed the Liberals with suspicion, and the NDP increasingly so, as the worst of champagne socialism. I'm old enough to remember when left wing meant support for the working class. Today it seems like culture wars conducted by the laptop class (hat tip to m3s for coining that one). I'm not quite ready to jump to the Conservatives with you but damn if the left ain't disappointing in so many ways. Wonder if there are more like us out there.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

wayward__son said:


> Today it seems like culture wars conducted by the laptop class (hat tip to m3s for coining that one)


Well I have bad news for you. m3s talks out of both sides of his mouth, because he has literally made himself rich by doing purely electronic digital trading and commerce using ... gulp ... his laptop. He's gotten rich off crypto coins.

He *is* the laptop class. He's become fabulously wealthy, all using the power of computer software and computer networks.

Worse still, by making all that money off securities trading and speculation, @m3s basically does the same thing Wall Street elites do. Not really contributing anything to society, just moving 1s and 0s on a screen.

In typical right-wing "fake populist" style, he gets rich on his laptop using advanced software while simultaneously pretending that he identifies with the common working man.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

LOL.......while hitchiking on infrastructure and an internet network built by the dreaded "boomers".....the likes of ancient Bill Gates.

Fabulously wealthy and yet.... fretting on inflation raising the price of a loaf of 6 grain bread crafted by local artisans from hand picked, stone ground kernels of organic grains carefully tended on a mountain hillside in Peru, and then carefully oven baked on a natural volcanic rock firepit and flown directly by private charter to the Organics Only deli down the road.

The injustice and tragedy of such a pitiful existance in so desolate a land. Who can save Canada from these dark perils and tumultuous times ?

Quickly and with all due haste....light the beacon torch and flash the "B" into the troubled sky. Harken the bitcoin to come to us in our time of need.


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## kcowan2000 (Mar 24, 2020)

MrBlackhill said:


> Trudeau is also paying to rig the polls of Maru Group and Angus Reid Institute, I guess?


No that is a secondary effect of the media brainwashing. There are good articles on this if you need to educate yourself. Unless this was just tongue-in-check?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

So sad.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

kcowan2000 said:


> No that is a secondary effect of the media brainwashing. There are good articles on this if you need to educate yourself. Unless this was just tongue-in-check?


Care to read a bit further here my reply? Care to share me the links of your "good articles" to educate myself? And your unbiased sources of quality information? Thanks.



MrBlackhill said:


> Fair enough, as you wish. Let's add more critical thinking. Your point would work out if EVERY Canadian was reading ONLY one news source, the one that you claim to be rigged. Turns out not everybody reads the same news source and it also turns out that people reads more than one news source. So, on aggregate, people read information from different perspectives, different presentations, different biases.
> 
> View attachment 22839
> 
> ...


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

kcowan2000 said:


> No that is a secondary effect of the media brainwashing. There are good articles on this if you need to educate yourself. Unless this was just tongue-in-check?


I don't know. Some people can be amazingly obtuse.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Rex Murphy x Jordan Peterson The Catastrophe of Canada

Intelligent lefties should have a watch for a good perspective they don't have


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)




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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

m3s said:


> Intelligent lefties should have a watch for a good perspective they don't have


Here's the problem in today's era of information. We should have easy access to lots of information, almost instantaneously, that's this era of information, compared to when social media didn't exist and information was only found in local journals and books. But we are now drown by information and misinformation. No matter if we read all the sources, including the left-biased sources, the right-biased sources and the least biased sources, you won't ever get the very complete picture of everything that happen and why, you won't ever get the complete picture of the context and the intentions behind each event and decision.

I will agree with some facts pushed by the left and some facts pushed by the right. In the end, we are also individuals with our own biases, our own confirmation bias.

At the end of the day, no matter left or right, my personal opinions are:

Everybody has the right to protest
Protests will be declared illegal based on laws and one should not support illegal protests
Even in a legal protest, some protesters will do illegal activities and other protesters should not support those illegal activities and move away from them
A protest cannot be an occupation which blocks access to infrastructures, shopkeepers, commercial routes
Politicians at city-level, province-level and country-level have not shown to be able to work together, have not been able to show proper leadership to handle such situation, which has led to anger against politicians
Protesters have shown to miss the mark with their behaviours as people who support their cause didn't support their ways, which has lead to anger against the protesters
This is the result of bad behaviour from politicians against bad behaviour from protesters, so there's no side to be taken, they are both wrong in their ways


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Journalism experts say threats to press during protests a wake-up call



> _David Friend and Amy Smart, The Canadian Press
> Published Monday, February 21, 2022 5:36AM EST
> 
> In a video from Ottawa, a broadcaster stares at the camera in silence as protesters surround him and scream expletives, calling him a liar and bellowing “freedom.”
> ...


 ... the irony in the declaration of "freedom" ... of speech here. 

Guess the low-lifers have to grab whatever dirty methods so they can "win", never mind trying to achieve what they can't decide on whilst not understanding that reporters and journalists are merely "messengers".


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Here's the problem in today's era of information. We should have easy access to lots of information, almost instantaneously, that's this era of information, compared to when social media didn't exist and information was only found in local journals and books. But we are now drown by information and misinformation. No matter if we read all the sources, including the left-biased sources, the right-biased sources and the least biased sources, you won't ever get the very complete picture of everything that happen and why, you won't ever get the complete picture of the context and the intentions behind each event and decision.
> 
> I will agree with some facts pushed by the left and some facts pushed by the right. In the end, we are also individuals with our own biases, our own confirmation bias.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of that. But I want to point out a double standard.
Trudeau supported the illegal Indian farmers protests which went on for months, but goes nuclear when someone protests him.
When terrorists are attacking pipelines out west, Trudeau declares war in Ottawa.
When BLM illegal protests happens, do they freeze their accounts? Did they hold organizers without bail?
You can donate to BLM Canada today. 

We actually have armed violent attacks on infrastructure, but the "emergency" is too many trucks on city streets?

Also in Ottawa, what's the "critical infrastructure they were blocking? Parliament which mostly wasn't in session?
The MPs didn't seem to have any trouble getting there until they POLICE told them not to.

FFS Trudeau is appointing convicted criminals who have engaged in illegal protests to cabinet!!!
His response to these protests was way over the line. It's all about politics, that's why there is the disproportionate response. His message is clear, and it's pretty scary.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> His response to these protests was way over the line.


It was done on purpose to intimidate and warn future wrong thinkers.

It's no surprise that measures were put in place so that parliament didn't meet to vote on the Emergency Measures Act. Even if they let it lapse (they will), every MP should still have to vote so that their decision is a matter of public record. This is too important to be brushed aside.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Update: I just read that they will vote on it tonight.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

HappilyRetired said:


> Update: I just read that they will vote on it tonight.


They said that yesterday.
Interestingly if it gets delayed tonight, I think that will put it past 7 days... which means it will be automatically retracted, without a vote. I think a vote should be a confidence motion, which would trigger an election.

Honestly it's a great time for Trudeau to call an election. He's frozen some $20M+ in donations from those who oppose him, openly threatened (Minister of Justice) to freeze accounts of anyone who donates to the wrong party, and the opposition is leaderless.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Honestly, I find all these comparisons to BLM a bit ridiculous. In Canada, BLM was nothing more than some weekend protest events where everyone went home at the end of the day. There were no blockades, no sit-ins. Unless I've forgotten something?

I think the comparisons to the railway blockades are much more apropos. The Tyendinaga blockade was apparently set up on Feb 6, and dismantled by police on Feb 24, 2020. That's a little bit shorter than the Ottawa situation, but it was also more disruptive since it blocked the only east-west rail corridor. 

What I would like to understand is why the Ottawa police didn't act in the first place. They knew in advance that the convoy was coming. They should have staffed up for that first weekend and ticketed/towed any rigs that were breaking the law. Their inaction allowed the convoy to get settled in to the extent where they had a massive stage with a sound system and a bouncy castle.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Spudd said:


> Honestly, I find all these comparisons to BLM a bit ridiculous. In Canada, BLM was nothing more than some weekend protest events where everyone went home at the end of the day. There were no blockades, no sit-ins. Unless I've forgotten something?
> 
> I think the comparisons to the railway blockades are much more apropos. The Tyendinaga blockade was apparently set up on Feb 6, and dismantled by police on Feb 24, 2020. That's a little bit shorter than the Ottawa situation, but it was also more disruptive since it blocked the only east-west rail corridor.
> 
> *What I would like to understand is why the Ottawa police didn't act in the first place. They knew in advance that the convoy was coming. They should have staffed up for that first weekend and ticketed/towed any rigs that were breaking the law. Their inaction allowed the convoy to get settled in to the extent where they had a massive with a sound system and a bouncy castle.*


 .. heard of moles? Sympathizers? Wannabees? Or maybe just plain ineptness with the strangeness of the sudden resignation of its police chief Sloly (service in Ottawa 1.5 years?, in Toronto 27 years)


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Spudd said:


> What I would like to understand is why the Ottawa police didn't act in the first place. They knew in advance that the convoy was coming. They should have staffed up for that first weekend and ticketed/towed any rigs that were breaking the law. Their inaction allowed the convoy to get settled in to the extent where they had a massive stage with a sound system and a bouncy castle.


Great post, Spudd.

Stopping the trucks from arriving in Ottawa would have subverted the convoy's right to protest.

There is a gray area between the right to process and occupying a city.

I don't understand the need to cause damage. What was gained by blocking Canada/US trade? What was gained by blocking rail in 2020? In both cases, these things are an attack on Canada.

The Ottawa occupation was also an attack. You can't run a store if you can't get new inventory. Some of the folks on the angry mob side of this debate don't seem to understand that shelves don't fill themselves.

I am spending time with a retired lady from Ottawa. She has a condo right downtown by the market. Her neighbors tell her the stores are out of a lot of stuff and it is really difficult get anything. She is in her 70s. If she was at home, she couldn't just walk to the O-train. Many streets are blocked so there is no taxi access, although she could probably take a mobility scooter several blocks to a bus.

IMO, a bunch of a-holes right to protest ends when it makes survival difficult for other people. I use the term "a-holes" because they had already made themselves heard. The convoy position was not all that clear but it could have been, if they had a real message. They had plenty of news coverage. All the goals of a protest had been met. They were well into the senseless destruction phase.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Spudd said:


> Honestly, I find all these comparisons to BLM a bit ridiculous. In Canada, BLM was nothing more than some weekend protest events where everyone went home at the end of the day. There were no blockades, no sit-ins. Unless I've forgotten something?


Short answer, yes.
There were illegal protests and riots across the country. 
Some news focused more on the harsh police response, and de-emphazied the looting etc.








George Floyd protest in Montreal declared illegal after violence breaks out | Globalnews.ca


The killing of George Floyd has sparked a series of protests in several cities since his death on May 25.




globalnews.ca





I haven't heard of any Freedom convoy looting.




> I think the comparisons to the railway blockades are much more apropos. The Tyendinaga blockade was apparently set up on Feb 6, and dismantled by police on Feb 24, 2020. That's a little bit shorter than the Ottawa situation, but it was also more disruptive since it blocked the only east-west rail corridor.


I disagree, Tyendinga was blocking a rail line, that's arguably a trade route. The Ottawa protests didn't block any major trade routes I'm aware of.
The Tydendigna were firebombing the rail line, did the Ottawa protestors commit outright vandalistm?

Secondly the Tyendinga was removed with existing laws, no Emergencies act, because it wasn't a national emergency. It was just an illegal protest that they cleared after a few days.

That's the typical Canadian pattern, let the protest happen, start clamping down as it goes out of control.
Normally "out of control" means violence, but it might mean blocking border crossings or trains etc.
Typically blocking construction (ie pipelines) is given far wider lattitude.



> What I would like to understand is why the Ottawa police didn't act in the first place. They knew in advance that the convoy was coming. They should have staffed up for that first weekend and ticketed/towed any rigs that were breaking the law. Their inaction allowed the convoy to get settled in to the extent where they had a massive stage with a sound system and a bouncy castle.


Traditionally police don't pre-emptively stop protests, they typically wait till there is an actual problem.
They typically let a lot slide when there are mobs, before marijuana legalization, how many people got busted for possession or trafficing at those protests? We have a tradition of being a bit lenient here.

I think that the reason they went from little action to very heavy handed in Ottawa was political interference.
In Saskatoon protests before they towed cars they gave warnings, tickets, then towed.
The government handled this protest differently than most protests.

Even the pipeline related protests, which were illegal, and they were violent with the destruction of property, government leaders met with representatives to understand their concerns.

I really think that Trudeau saw a political advantage, and took it, and like with COVID he's going to see how far he can take it.

The brilliance of defunding your political opposition using terrorism finance laws, is just diabolical.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

MrMatt said:


> We actually have armed violent attacks on infrastructure, but the "emergency" is too many trucks on city streets?
> 
> Also in Ottawa, what's the "critical infrastructure they were blocking? Parliament which mostly wasn't in session?
> The MPs didn't seem to have any trouble getting there until they POLICE told them not to.


There are condos, grocery stores, and other normal-life stores in the ByWard Market area. The stores could not get new inventory. Condo dwellers could not drive anywhere or get a taxi close to their home.

It made it extremely difficult for seniors living in the area. Even for able bodied people, why should they have to walk several blocks to get an Uber to go for groceries? For a few days, seems like maybe an unfortunate inconvenience but the "Freedom Convoy" declared themselves a permanent occupying group until they got what they wanted.

Any time a group that represents 10% of a population declares they are going to hurt the rest of society until they get their way that 70% of the population disagree with, you've got a bunch of a-holes. That is extortion and I seem to recall reading somewhere that extortion isn't a great way to effect change.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> Great post, Spudd.
> 
> Stopping the trucks from arriving in Ottawa would have subverted the convoy's right to protest.
> 
> ...


 ... I think Trudeau is doing them a favour with invoking the Emergency Act (as a last resort) forcing the police in Ottawa to do its job in controlling the damages. The fun hasn't even begun for these hilly-billies ... they're gonna to lose everything after the jail term, job, fine, lawsuit, etc. The worst are those innocent brain-washed kids, not those just participating at the "protest" but in schools later. They're gonna be ostracized.

And good luck with the claim at WSB for being brain-damaged in listening to their (nation-wide) so called "supporters" (with a few on this board).


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I hope the protesters are not hit with the full weight of the government. They have a position, minority position, and a right to be heard.

Of course, any mischief, weapons charges, etc. needs to be dealt with like any other occurances of these infractions.

But, the people who just really, really, really don't like COVID restrictions ought to be able to complain. I think these people ought to be rooted out of their bunker and sent home to complain to their neighbors. lol!


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> Any time a group that represents 10% of a population declares they are going to hurt the rest of society until they get their way that 70% of the population disagree with, you've got a bunch of a-holes. That is extortion and I seem to recall reading somewhere that extortion isn't a great way to effect change.


That's one way to look at it.
The other way is that 10% was being ignored and wanted to send a message that HAD to get listened to, and they were still ignored.
That's what I see as the biggest problem, when you have a sizeable number of people with a concern, and the people in power choose to ignore them, or simply demonize them for disagreeing, you have a problem with your democracy.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> I hope the protesters are not hit with the full weight of the government. They have a position, minority position, and a right to be heard.


Absolutely, but they're holding some protest leaders without bail.
They've frozen bank accounts without a court order, and threatened to freeze assets of anyone who donates to the wrong political party or cause. Again, without judicial oversight.

Hey, if a court decides that the funds should be frozen, that's ok. We even have secret courts that do this if needed.
But to not have any judicial oversight at all... That's scary.

If they're going to hold people without bail, and freeze their assets without a court order, there are concerns here.
Particularly if the people didn't actually commit serious crimes. Brought an illegal gun to a protest, sure, but jail them over parking tickets.. bit too much.




> Of course, any mischief, weapons charges, etc. needs to be dealt with like any other occurances of these infractions.


Absolutely.


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

MrMatt said:


> I disagree, Tyendinga was blocking a rail line, that's arguably a trade route. The Ottawa protests didn't block any major trade routes I'm aware of.


The same hillbillies blocked international bridges between US and Canada. It forced several business to shut down temporarily because of goods shortage. Maybe do your research.

Cons should be outraged that this affected the economy, and we will have to pay for the mess with our tax dollars.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Defense lawyers think Tamara Lich is likely to be held in custody until her trial.

Law enforcement and the courts will be taking the matters far more seriously than people like Mr. Matt do.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Short answer, yes.
> There were illegal protests and riots across the country.
> Some news focused more on the harsh police response, and de-emphazied the looting etc.
> 
> ...


So you do agree. I didn't say anything about BLM being violent/looting, I said they didn't blockade or sit-in, and hence it's not a great comparison to use.



MrMatt said:


> I disagree, Tyendinga was blocking a rail line, that's arguably a trade route. The Ottawa protests didn't block any major trade routes I'm aware of.


So you do agree. I said the Tyendinaga was more disruptive, which is likely why it was broken up more quickly than the Ottawa situation. 



MrMatt said:


> Secondly the Tyendinga was removed with existing laws, no Emergencies act, because it wasn't a national emergency. It was just an illegal protest that they cleared after a few days.


From my understanding, because the Ottawa police had declared themselves unable to handle the protest, there were jurisdictional issues that were possible to overcome by using the Emergencies Act. This is what allowed the OPS, RCMP, OPP, SQ, etc to work together as a single force without having to go through a long swearing-in process. The Tyendinaga were just removed by OPP acting alone. No jurisdictional issues there.



MrMatt said:


> I really think that Trudeau saw a political advantage, and took it, and like with COVID he's going to see how far he can take it.
> 
> The brilliance of defunding your political opposition using terrorism finance laws, is just diabolical.


I personally doubt this, but I'm willing to wait and see what happens. (Not that I have a choice, haha.) I do think the financial part of the declaration is the one that's the most problematic. I have no problem with restricting traffic into the "red zone" or enabling multiple police forces to work together to stop the illegal behaviour. The financial piece will need to be carefully reviewed to ensure it's not violating people's rights. 

Finally, you say he's going to see how far he can take it, but it's set to expire automatically after 30 days, so I'm guessing it won't go further than that. 




__





Canada’s Emergencies Act - Canada.ca


Canada’s Emergencies Act




www.canada.ca


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Absolutely, but they're holding some protest leaders without bail.
> They've frozen bank accounts without a court order, and threatened to freeze assets of anyone who donates to the wrong political party or cause. Again, without judicial oversight.
> 
> Hey, if a court decides that the funds should be frozen, that's ok. We even have secret courts that do this if needed.
> But to not have any judicial oversight at all... That's scary.


They're holding them without bail until a decision can be made on their bail. How is that an outrage? They already released one on bail. 

There will be oversight of the Act as a whole. It's built into the Act itself that there are several layers of oversight. Both parliament and the senate must approve the act, and during the emergency, there's a parliamentary review committee to review the actions taking place. After the emergency is over, there will be an inquiry into how everything was handled. This is all detailed on the webpage I linked in my earlier post. 

Regarding the financial part, I agree that part is iffier. I'm not a big fan of it. It will remain to be seen how that plays out. But I am sure the people whose accounts were frozen will be able to take the government to court if they wish. The Canadian Civil Liberties Association is already mounting a court case in this regard.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

The city of Ottawa is more blockaded today than it was a week ago.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

These organizers not only hurt Ottawa residents, cost billions of dollars in damages, but also hurt their own followers by lying to them.

There was an interview with a 70 year old trucker who is still at Ottawa. He is a grandfather and recently paid the last payments on his $150,000 truck.

In the interview he was confident that the organizers would pay the cost of getting his truck back and pay any legal costs he might incur.

Tamara Lich has denied any involvement with the protest and her lawyers say they will only be representing her and other organizers........not followers.

One of the organizers was arrested while bragging on a live stream that he managed to escape the police blockades. He had no plans to help followers.

The damage these people caused is measured in a lot of ways. They must be held accountable to the full force of the law.

Many of these people don't even realize that the charge of "mischief" carries a maximum 10 year prison sentence, so it would not be unusual for a judge to give them a "lenient" sentence of 1 to 6 months in prison, plus a year of probation. They will have criminal records and not be able to enter the US.

Shame on the organizers, their financial backers, and political cheerleaders who have used these bewildered people and will now abandon them.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

doctrine said:


> The city of Ottawa is more blockaded today than it was a week ago.


 ... yep, and Pollievre just blew his chance at alleviating this. It's too bad the hill-billies in this country can't see beyond the hate for Trudeau and their fellow Canadians who don't agree with their freedom of lawlessness and disorder.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> These organizers not only hurt Ottawa residents, cost billions of dollars in damages, but also hurt their own followers by lying to them.
> 
> There was an interview with a 70 year old trucker who is still at Ottawa. He is a grandfather and recently paid the last payments on his $150,000 truck.
> 
> ...


 ... sounds alot like the Dump's policy but first with the "I love ya, all" ... "so you're in jail? Lost your job, lost everything? Too bad that you can't join me basking in Florida."


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The followers had no idea the losers they had as leaders. From dead broke Tamara and her clueless husband to people with sketchy backgrounds.

I would put Pierre P into the loser category as well. He already had a major role in the Harper government and was useless as a tiger with flippers.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

MrMatt said:


> That's one way to look at it.
> The other way is that 10% was being ignored and wanted to send a message that HAD to get listened to, and they were still ignored.


Back the convoy up, just a minute.

How were they ignored? What about the local/national/international coverage they have gotten? Dude... we are all sick of listening to these morons.

The convoy had an opportunity to share their view and sway opinion their way. It didn't work.

This group, and your position, are declaring a travesty of justice for a group of roughly 10% not being able have their way in opposition to roughly 70% of the population. This group, and yourself, clearly have a fundamental misunderstanding of how democracy works. Democracy does not mean that you get your way regardless what anyone else wants.

Mr. Matt. You don't seem to have any comprehension of how selfish your position is; "I have the right to be able to go anywhere, take no precautions, contract whatever, and spread it wherever I want."

We have had problems with my Mom's situation. She lives in a senior complex. No one is allowed in the building without a mask. She doesn't want anyone in her unit without a mask. Her cleaning lady wanted to come and clean her apartment while she was very sick. She sounded like Jabba the Hutt on the phone. My Mom could be knocked off this mortal coil by a mild sunburn but this cleaning lady wanted her 120 bucks.

News flash, MrMatt. Nobody wants to be told what to do. The difference is, some of us put on the mask and take the vaccine to do our part for herd immunity and also to improve the safety of people living with comorbidities, like age, diabetes, etc.

I'm retired. We don't eat out. I would not have had to take the vaccine. Instead of crying like a 6 year old princess because she doesn't have a bouncy castle at her birthday party, I'm trying to do my part. I always wear a mask in my Mom's condo. Some people try to get away without wearing a mask and they are often able to get away with it. I have no desire to get away with it because everyone who lives in her condo is someone's parent, friend, or family member.

Who would you want as your neighbor? Someone who cares about the people around them or the guy who thinks it's his right to play the stereo at any volume at any time of the day for as long as he wants? This thing literally comes down to denying a minority group of selfish assholes from acting like babies.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> The followers had no idea the losers they had as leaders. From dead broke Tamara and her clueless husband to people with sketchy backgrounds.


 ... I haven't read into the background of Ms. Lich so have no idea but just from her self-participation in this whole fiasco tells me any decent and sensible "business" person would not get involved in this kind of thing. Particularly putting him/herself as the "leader". I'm gather she did that only because of the "ballooned GMF" - you know, help thyself. As for her clueless husband, it's proven when he stated in court, he wanted to exercise his "1st amendment" ... in Canada and was asked by the judge "what's that?". LMAO.



> I would put Pierre P into the loser category as well. He already had a major role in the Harper government and was useless as a tiger with flippers.


 ... I think a tuba player position would suit Pollievre perfectly. He's delusional on being PM of Canada, let alone being leader of the CPC. He's proven he is as classless as he can be by edging on those hill-billies. Ms. Bergen came very close.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Well said TomB16, but I doubt you will make any progress with those who advocate for a society where everyone does whatever they want without regard.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Broke as Mr. Lich is.....living on $7 a day and finding it difficult to manage on his costly restricted diet due to health reasons (presumably why he doesn't have a job), Mr. Lich flew to Ottawa from Medicine Hat, Alberta on a private jet provided by a man "unknown" to him but who called himself "Johnny". He was also handed $5,000 in cash by a fella he doesn't know for Tamara's bail......hence the unemployed Tamara stated she could only afford $5,000 bail deposit.

The bail cash is interesting in that in Canada cash for bail for minor crimes isn't usually required if a surety will sign a guarantee to pay the bail if the defendant takes off. All that is required is for the surety to sign the papers.

It appears that on her own Tamara has neither the cash, assets or a surety who can guarantee a $5,000 bail.

Defense lawyers who watched the bail proceedings on Zoom said it was the weirdest bail hearing they had ever seen, but it did provide welcome humor.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Something I hope MrMatt and I can agree on is that "bouncy castle" comment was an excellent burn.


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

TomB16 said:


> Back the convoy up, just a minute.
> 
> How were they ignored? What about the local/national/international coverage they have gotten? Dude... we are all sick of listening to these morons.
> 
> ...


Wow. Someone had to say it. 🏆


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Spudd said:


> So you do agree. I didn't say anything about BLM being violent/looting, I said they didn't blockade or sit-in, and hence it's not a great comparison to use.
> 
> 
> So you do agree. I said the Tyendinaga was more disruptive, which is likely why it was broken up more quickly than the Ottawa situation.
> ...


The jurisdictional issues were not a problem and didn't need emergency act to solve it.
The article by Rex Murphy from about a week ago explained that and showed which existing laws apply and what they allow to do.
Mayor of Ottawa asked to get 1,800 RCMP officers, and said that it will be enough. Trudeau refused and instead sent 300. The problem could have been easily solved with existing laws.

Just look what is happening now. Only blockades are police blockades, yet they STILL say emergency act is needed. This is the biggest power grab in history of Canada. Traitors are literally dismantling democracy and need to be prosecuted to full extent of the law.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Spudd said:


> So you do agree. I didn't say anything about BLM being violent/looting, I said they didn't blockade or sit-in, and hence it's not a great comparison to use.


That's exactly my point, the BLM riots were violent, Ottawa was not.



> From my understanding, because the Ottawa police had declared themselves unable to handle the protest, there were jurisdictional issues that were possible to overcome by using the Emergencies Act. This is what allowed the OPS, RCMP, OPP, SQ, etc to work together as a single force without having to go through a long swearing-in process. The Tyendinaga were just removed by OPP acting alone. No jurisdictional issues there.


That's just ridiculous. RCMP, OPP and OPS all have full jurisdiction to act within Ontario.

OPS requested additional officers, Ottawa refused. Mayor negotiated during this time.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> How were they ignored? What about the local/national/international coverage they have gotten? Dude... we are all sick of listening to these morons.


They weren't ignored. In fact, the media went out of their way to promote Trudeau's slander and lies, while completely ignoring that he ran and hid, and did everything possible to seed divisiveness. 

Guess what? It worked. Some of your heads are exploding in rage. You don't even know that you were played.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> Broke as Mr. Lich is.....living on $7 a day and finding it difficult to manage on his costly restricted diet due to health reasons (presumably why he doesn't have a job), Mr. Lich flew to Ottawa from Medicine Hat, Alberta on a private jet provided by a man "unknown" to him but who called himself "Johnny". He was also handed $5,000 in cash by a fella he doesn't know for Tamara's bail......hence the unemployed Tamara stated she could only afford $5,000 bail deposit.
> 
> The bail cash is interesting in that in Canada cash for bail for minor crimes isn't usually required if a surety will sign a guarantee to pay the bail if the defendant takes off. All that is required is for the surety to sign the papers.
> 
> ...


 ... no wonder she was so keen on being an "organizer" of the GMF. I wonder how her lawyer(s) is getting paid to represent her.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> Something I hope MrMatt and I can agree on is that "bouncy castle" comment was an excellent burn.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> Back the convoy up, just a minute.
> 
> How were they ignored? What about the local/national/international coverage they have gotten? Dude... we are all sick of listening to these morons.


No representative from the Government that I'm aware of met with them.



> Mr. Matt. You don't seem to have any comprehension of how selfish your position is; "I have the right to be able to go anywhere, take no precautions, contract whatever, and spread it wherever I want."


Who ever said I had that position?
I don't know what it is, but most people who argue against me keep assigning me a position I don't have and often never had.

In general I've been for more precautions than the government. Go ahead, scroll back 2 years.

I've constantly complained about the lack of proper control measures regarding the pandemic.
I disagreed with Dr Tam when she was an anti masker
I disagreed when they pulled AZ. there really was no reason to do so.
I disagreed when they refused to close and quarantine at the border.
I support mask mandates.
I even support vaccine passports. (When they were a scientifically valid control strategy)

The only things I'm really offside with are.
1. Removing EI for people who refuse to get vaxxed.
2. Firing people who don't want to get vaxxed. I think unpaid suspensions could be appropriate in some cases. It's important to note that in 2018 Ontario Nurses won the right to refuse mandatory vaccinations, which IMO is ridiculous.

It's only now that we have health care capacity, COVID isn't very lethal and the measures aren't effective that I think it's time to repeal them. In early Feb I was still in favor of restrictions.

So seeing as I don't actually agree with the truckers in general, I simply think that they have a right to be heard, and I don't think it's appropriate to criminalize people for their political beliefs.


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

HappilyRetired said:


> Guess what? It worked. Some of your heads are exploding in rage. You don't even know that you were played.


No we're cheerful that the 3 year olds crybabies got out of the bouncy castle headquarters.

We can get back to what grown up people do.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Well said TomB16, but I doubt you will make any progress with those who advocate for a society where everyone does whatever they want without regard.


You mean like fly to Mexico during a pandemic for non-essential travel and then point out how 10% of the working class in Canada is selfish for trying to do essential work travel from the closed bubble of a truck?

There's a long list of Canadians who had to resign from their positions for flying south to the beaches while preaching to everyone else to stay home and stop the spread like good citizens. I couldn't travel home for years because of arbitrary rules that could only be enforced at a border - even though I could drive across the border in my own bubble

Everyone seems to justify to themselves why they should be able to do what they want because nobody will see them do it while telling everyone else they need to follow the rules (we know the vaccine doesn't even stop the spread) Expecting the working class to follow these rules from a beach in Mexico is absurd

The double standard is real and the double standard is blind. Imagine if a conservative government acted this way towards a movement they didn't like. The left would be destroying cities and the lefties would cheer them from the beaches


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

MrMatt said:


> No representative from the Government that I'm aware of met with them.


I agree. Trudeau, or someone in the cabinet, should have met with them and listened to them.




MrMatt said:


> Who ever said I had that position?
> I don't know what it is, but most people who argue against me keep assigning me a position I don't have and often never had.


That is precisely the position of the Freedom Convoy, as I understand it. They want to be able to go to the US, pick up a load, and drive back into Canada without restriction even if they haven't taken the vaccine.

I'm glad they had their say. These sort of tantrums are important to keep the democracy healthy.

Hey! A reasonable conversation is breaking out. Please accept my regards, MrMatt.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> I agree. Trudeau, or someone in the cabinet, should have met with them and listened to them.


That's been my position from the beginning.
Their refusal to do so suggests nefarious intent.



> That is precisely the position of the Freedom Convoy, as I understand it. They want to be able to go to the US, pick up a load, and drive back into Canada without restriction even if they haven't taken the vaccine.


Firstly MY position isn't theirs.
Secondly that is one of their positions of one (admittedly significant) group, there are many other groups with a variety of agendas.

Thirdly, if the truckers could safely pick up a load and drive it back to Canada without vaccination for 2 years, and are still allowed to do so today, If they're transporting medical supplies or students (students why?). I'd suggest they're not a huge risk.








Unvaccinated truckers delivering vaccines, COVID devices exempt from border rules - National | Globalnews.ca


Unvaccinated truckers bringing COVID-19 vaccines and medical devices into Canada to combat the pandemic are exempt from testing and quarantine requirements at the border.




globalnews.ca




Just think how ridiculous that is, if you're driving a load of food, you need to be vaccinated, but a busload of students you don't need to be vaccinated? Care to explain the "science" behind that exception?


The reality is Canada and the US have widespread Omicron, the restrictions serve little to no purpose at this point.

A lot of people simply want the government to follow the science and relax restrictions accordingly.
Almost everyone is vaccinated, and there really is no major public health crisis at this point (I disagreed in January, and only partially agree now)



> Hey! A reasonable conversation is breaking out. Please accept my regards, MrMatt.


The lack of reasonable conversation is the problem with our democracy today.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I don't see an indication of nefarious intent on the part of the government but I share some of your point of view.

A group of 30 people from CMF should be able to march to Ottawa with a position that laptop computers should be considered as people and someone should meet with us to discuss our position. It should be someone who is reasonably appropriate to speak with us and either explain the legal definition of a person, why it's important that inanimate objects not be considered as people, or whatever. They don't have to do anything we ask or demand. The point is the government should try to help us. The government should represent us, even if we are a minority.

In this case, I think Prime Minister Trudeau had a reasonable expectation of a bad outcome if he had ventured into the rally, even with an RCMP escort. Perhaps a few representatives could have met on neutral ground with Minister Freeland or maybe even someone in her office. Again, not to take direction from the convoy but to listen to them.

As for pandemic restrictions, there are a lot of ways in which government measures miss the mark but I don't think they are all that far off so I give the PM a passing grade. Everyone wants to be an exception but I don't see the point here.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> In this case, I think Prime Minister Trudeau had a reasonable expectation of a bad outcome if he had ventured into the rally, even with an RCMP escort. Perhaps a few representatives could have met on neutral ground with Minister Freeland or maybe even someone in her office. Again, not to take direction from the convoy but to listen to them.


Obviously, but taking a few screened representatives to a neutral site would have been appropriate.
I do think at this level, someone from the cabinet or PMO should have met with them.
12 people with laptops... that deserves a jr flunkie.

Multimillion dollar funded protest with hundreds of thousands to millions of supporters - Cabinet/PMO
The protest raised more than all the major political parties combined (in 1 quarter)



> As for pandemic restrictions, there are a lot of ways in which government measures miss the mark but I don't think they are all that far off so I give the PM a passing grade. Everyone wants to be an exception but I don't see the point here.


I give Trudeau a failing grade for 2.5 reasons.
1. He mishandled the federal responsibilities at most turns, including lying to Canadians about the actions they were taking.
2. Set a bad example by personally ignoring and violating health guidance from the relevant authorities.
2.5 Used the pandemic as an excuse for unreasonable power grabs.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Mr. Pollievre, where are you?


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

These are the lunatics who voted against democracy tonight:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495928778169724928


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

TomB16 said:


> The Ottawa occupation was also an attack
> . . .
> IMO, a bunch of a-holes right to protest ends when it makes survival difficult for other people. I use the term "a-holes" because they had already made themselves heard. The convoy position was not all that clear but it could have been, if they had a real message. They had plenty of news coverage. All the goals of a protest had been met. They were well into the senseless destruction phase.


There was lots of hatred in this group. Hatred of government, also hatred for eastern Canada, hatred for "liberals", and Trudeau. Some of the groups that helped organize this hate democratic government and were calling for the _overthrow_ of government.

Non-white truckers faced abuse from these people too. South Asian truckers (and there are many!) didn't identify with the convoy and wanted nothing to do with it. As did many other truckers who were working hard, while these lazy selfish people caused chaos in Ottawa.

South Asian truckers not only heard racist insults from these convoy people, but also suffered lost business

Canadian law is very clear about the right to protest. Only peaceful protest is permitted, and severe disturbances to the peace have never been legal.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Secret words and finger signs.......it all sounds so mysterious and clever.

Do they have secret decoder rings too.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> If the white supremacists go to prison, they best learn not to flash hand or verbal signs while they are guests there.


If these white supremacists and far-right attackers actually get jail time, I'll be shocked. We have a long tradition in Canada of just shrugging off threats from the far-right.

They hardly ever face any kind of justice, which is exactly why they demonstrate this level of arrogance, and mock the police. They know that nothing will ever happen to them. Notice that as they caused this chaos, many of them continued to show absolutely no concern about the police, and they just ignored all directions given by police (and the city, and the province).

My guess is that few charges will stick after these arrests, and very few serious prosecutions will occur. The far-right will be emboldened and will continue launching attacks, bullying, and domestic terrorism whenever they want.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Wow, James is on a roll!! The only thing he forgot to say is that Honk Honk is an acronym for Heil Hitler.

Liberal meltdowns can sometimes be entertaining... 

HONK HONK!!


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Watch: Senator decries entitled Ottawa Residents | Video | The West Australian 

I know this story is from last week and since the protest is covered across several threads I apologize if this has already been shared. Likely put himself in the doghouse with the Mrs. as well. Note this story was picked up in Australia. As an appointed senator, his statement was not an attempt to garner votes. I think he was just frustrated with the entire situation. Regionalism has been a long standing narrative in this country since the time of colonization.

Conservative senator apologizes for berating Ottawa residents in late-night protest rant | CBC News

Slightly Off topic from my post but based on his statements in the first video it triggered the thought in my head. I am often amused and sometimes disheartened how our governing leaders speak to each other. If we were to use similar language in the workplace we would be reprimanded. When children in school behave in this manner their parents are called.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ I feel for the residents of Ottawa.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ottawa protest organizer Tamara Lich denied bail



> _ ...An Ontario court judge issued the decision in Ottawa this morning, saying she believed there was a substantial likelihood Lich would reoffend if released. ... _


 ... anyone surprised?


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Beaver101 said:


> surprised?


Yes, a bit. The fact that she and her husband are both clowns and seem to have access to financial resources that the court can't observe clearly should mean that the bail might be set quite high. If she splits, she can't really go anywhere and is certain to leave an unmissable trail of drivel on social media, so tracking her down would not be difficult, just awkward and expensive to do. Maybe $50G or something. No bail at all seems a bit weird.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

gardner said:


> Yes, a bit. The fact that she and her husband are both clowns and seem to have access to financial resources that the court can't observe clearly should mean that the bail might be set quite high. If she splits, she can't really go anywhere and is certain to leave an unmissable trail of drivel on social media, so tracking her down would not be difficult, just awkward and expensive to do. Maybe $50G or something. No bail at all seems a bit weird.


 ... she and her hubby can continue playing "clowns" but the judge is fixated with Ms. Lich with these comments as well:



> ...
> _Justice Julie Bourgeois said the convoy's effect on the community was immense and *she felt Lich was obstinate and disingenuous in her responses to the court during her bail hearing on Saturday.*
> 
> "I cannot be reassured that if I release you into the community that you will not reoffend," Bourgeois said.
> ...


 ... the jail term will be interesting to see. Next will be the lawsuit against the corp that she's a busy-body director of.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

The same judge bailed Chris Barber. I do no see the bond amount, but I suspect his wife was stable enough to be a credible surety.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Response to Ottawa convoy protest carries $30-million price tag and counting, city manager says

Above article is behind a paywall but here's an excerpt:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/authors/kristy-kirkup/


> _ KRISTY KIRKUP AND IAN BAILEY, OTTAWA, The Globe and Mail. Feb 23, 2022.
> 
> *The City of Ottawa estimates the cost of responding to antigovernment demonstrations in the capital is about $30-million and growing.*
> 
> ...


_ ... _the price-tag for the bouncy castle, $30M+ courtesy of generous Canadian taxpayers. 

I wonder where the money from the supposedly auctioned-off seized rigs,vehicles, and what haves as per Ottawa mayor Watson, are going?


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## cliffsecord (Jan 10, 2020)

This article is really funny in all ways. Fake news? Biased reporting?



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/tamara-lich-bail-hearing-february-19-1.6358307



Some notable quotes if you don't want to read.


"I don't see no guns. I don't see anything criminal as far as I can see. I just see trucks parked," he said.

...

"Honestly? I thought it was a peaceful protest and based on my *first amendment*, I thought that was part of our rights," he told the court.

"What do you mean, first amendment? What's that?" Judge Julie Bourgeois asked him.

...

"Can you tell me if what they did is really legal? If this is something that they can be doing or is it against everything that is good and holy? I don't know," he said.

While the Crown argued his comments showed he might not recognize the law, Magas asked him if he understood that any restrictions set by the court would need to be followed, to which he said he did.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Nope, not biased or fake reporting. See earlier posts. If there's anything fake, it would be those 2 "business clowns" seeking bail with the all of sudden "what, where, how, why, me, huh, duh???" syndrome.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

cliffsecord said:


> "Honestly? I thought it was a peaceful protest and based on my *first amendment*, I thought that was part of our rights," he told the court.
> 
> "What do you mean, first amendment? What's that?" Judge Julie Bourgeois asked him.


Good one. There is no "first amendment" in Canada, that's in the US.









Opinion: Protesters need to understand: Canada’s Charter is not the U.S. Bill of Rights


Charter rights are not absolute, and this isn’t an exceptional feature among most modern bills of rights




www.theglobeandmail.com


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

There is no free speech in Canada. 
That's the joke. 
Getting bank accounts frozen because government doesn't like you


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Getting bank accounts frozen because government doesn't like you


With a class action lawsuit of $306 millions, I guess it wasn't only the government who didn't appreciate it, as you claim. Who's gonna pay?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> There is no free speech in Canada.
> That's the joke.
> *Getting bank accounts frozen because government doesn't like you*


 ... do the crime, serve the time after you pay the fine. Aren't you abit behind with your daily favourite social media- feeds? Most of those accounts have been unfrozen. The ones that remain frozen are bounded by legalities that the banks must abide. No sweat for small-potatoes wannabees donors.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> With a class action lawsuit of $306 millions, I guess it wasn't only the government who didn't appreciate it, as you claim. Who's gonna pay?


 ... $30M and counting ... just for law enforcements. See my earlier post.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> With a class action lawsuit of $306 millions, I guess it wasn't only the government who didn't appreciate it, as you claim. Who's gonna pay?


The accounts were frozen without court order.

What you are talking about is a legal process. 

Two completely separate things


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

damian13ster said:


> The accounts were frozen without court order.


They were frozen using the laws of this country, under a fair democratic process including Parliament's approval.

The Emergencies Act gave the government power to use financial pressures to assist enforcement measures during an emergency that got out of control. The government used the proper avenue to do all this.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

james4beach said:


> They were frozen using the laws of this country, under a fair democratic process including Parliament's approval.
> 
> The Emergencies Act gave the government power to use financial pressures to assist enforcement measures during an emergency that got out of control. The government used the proper avenue to do all this.


Emergencies Act needs BOTH House of Commons and Senate approval. 
When the accounts were frozen - it got neither.
And alltogether it never got Senate approval.
But this is spread across two topics now so just choose to which one you will reply.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Emergencies Act needs BOTH House of Commons and Senate approval.
> When the accounts were frozen - it got neither.
> And alltogether it never got Senate approval.
> But this is spread across two topics now so just choose to which one you will reply.


 ... then why aren't you working for the government's legal department if you're so adept with these legal matters? How about the Human Rights Commission?

Here's a suggestion - join the Canadian Civil Liberties association - they've launched a lawsuit against our oppressing government. This is an opportunity for you to shine and stand up for all (human) rights of Canadians.

No? Why not?


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Emergencies Act needs BOTH House of Commons and Senate approval.
> When the accounts were frozen - it got neither.
> And alltogether it never got Senate approval.
> But this is spread across two topics now so just choose to which one you will reply.


This is how the Emergencies Act work:

_Once cabinet declares an emergency, *it takes effect right away* — but the government still needs to go to Parliament within seven days to get approval. If either the Commons or the Senate votes against the motion, the emergency declaration is revoked._

And also, you show note that:

_An inquiry into the government's decision to invoke the act and subsequent police actions will begin within 60 days._

I'm not defending whether or not they should've invoked the act, but the facts are that they played by the rules of the laws, even though it is highly controversial and that's why there will be an inquiry.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> This is how the Emergencies Act work:
> 
> _Once cabinet declares an emergency, *it takes effect right away* — but the government still needs to go to Parliament within seven days to get approval. If either the Commons or the Senate votes against the motion, the emergency declaration is revoked._
> 
> ...


Well, it wasn't democratic.
It was unilaterally introduced suspension of human rights and due legal process.

Whether it was legal? Perhaps. Dictatorships are legal under respective laws as well, since the laws are set by those in power. Again, in Canada, even holocaust would be legal under existing Charter. Forced sterilization of Aboriginal women is legal in Canada. Residential schools were legal in Canada.
Just because it is legal does it mean it is ethical, right, or democratic? - no.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Forced sterilization of Aboriginal women is legal in Canada.


Care to support this? Sexual Sterilization Act was repealed in the 70s.

Yes, it was still happening in recent years and that's horrible, but definitely illegal over the past 50 years and definitely not supported by the government.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> Care to support this? Sexual Sterilization Act was repealed in the 70s.
> 
> Yes, it was still happening in recent years and that's horrible, but definitely illegal over the past 50 years and definitely not supported by the government.


I believe in 1970s it was no longer mandatory.

It is still happening:








Indigenous women still forced, coerced into sterilization: Senate report | Globalnews.ca


Women interviewed for the report were coercively sterilized between 2005 and 2010. The committee says it is aware of a case of forced sterilization as recent as 2019.




globalnews.ca





And according to this source it is still not covered by criminal code in canada.








The coerced sterilization of Indigenous women


The shocking eugenicist policies can be seen as attempted cultural genocide, argues Jaipreet Virdi




newint.org





"Yet it is not illegal in Canada under the Criminal Code, a process that Lombard is actively trying to change. Currently, forced sterilization can be considered as sexual battery in the civil realm, or sexual assault in the criminal realm.

Lombard’s firm raised the issue of coerced sterilization of Indigenous women at the UN Committee Against Torture earlier this week, outlining specific steps to combat the practice, including criminalizing forced sterilization through the Criminal Code and having Health Canada (the government department responsible for public health) issue guidance to health professionals regarding sterilization procedures. The UN Committee Against Torture is expected to release its report on 7 December."

Here we return I guess to the debate of whether coercion is force. And sadly, seeing past 2 years, Canadians stand on the human rights abuse side of it


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

The big business of GiveSendGo: U.S. crowdfunding site earned at least $735,000 on Ottawa protests alone, leaked data shows

Above link is behind a paywall but the title gives you a hint as to what kind of organization that your generous monetary supports go (don't forget the "tip" too). From the mouth of the founder(s):



> _...
> *“We are Christians that believe that taking sides in politics is not the answer*. *The answer is found in Jesus*. We will continue to Share that hope with everyone that comes on our platform,” the founders wrote in an April blog post. Stroop, who was raised in an evangelical household in Indiana, said the founders of GiveSendGo “have pretty much a standard evangelical ideology.”
> 
> In the days following the U.S. Capitol riot, which ultimately left five people dead, PayPal cut ties with GiveSendGo as its primary payment processor over its fundraisers for QAnon and the riot’s participants.
> ...


 ... okay, replace politics with religion. Will that be Jesus or God? Make that both if you open your wallets wide and dig deeper there, you're gonna be saved. Scoop those pennies out if you have to.


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

Substitute Santa Claus for Jesus.


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

.............or the tooth fairy or the easter bunny!


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

For me, the answer is Buffett.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Care to support this? Sexual Sterilization Act was repealed in the 70s.
> 
> Yes, it was still happening in recent years and that's horrible, but definitely illegal over the past 50 years and definitely not supported by the government.


Except it was funded and encouraged by the government, and the government failed to take steps to prevent it, or act when it was brought to their attention.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

It's so amusing reading these threads when it's clear several people I have on my ignore list have been participating. This one reads as follows for me (no idea what these are in reference to): 

Substitute Santa Claus for Jesus. 
... or the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny!
For me, the answer is Buffett. 

LOL!


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

Spudd said:


> It's so amusing reading these threads when it's clear several people I have on my ignore list have been participating. This one reads as follows for me (no idea what these are in reference to):
> 
> Substitute Santa Claus for Jesus.
> ... or the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny!
> ...


Spudd why would you ignore me?

I'm just an aging Geezer who has been there and done that!🧙‍♂️


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Spudd said:


> It's so amusing reading these threads when it's clear several people I have on my ignore list have been participating. This one reads as follows for me (no idea what these are in reference to):
> 
> Substitute Santa Claus for Jesus.
> ... or the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny!
> ...


Same for me, makes for a funny read! Putting the extremists on ignore was a good idea.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Zipper said:


> Spudd why would you ignore me?
> 
> I'm just an aging Geezer who has been there and done that!🧙‍♂️


 ... Zipper, you're not on Spudd's Ignore List (or maybe now as she hasn't answered your question, yet) since she saw your post but couldn't make out who or what you were responding to. This can only suggests I'm on her list of Ignore list. Unfortunately, that's one of (plenty) unintended consequences by using this feature from the forum.

With the forum Ignore function, I believe someone else said "it's weird with the invisibility of the post from its originator on my Ignore list" ... LOL. I won't go into other downside details in using this feature. I mean it's available to everyone to use - it's free as with freedom of speech. Besides, I have my own Ignore capability where I can choose to ignore or not, where-ever and whenever I want.

I also agree with Tom16 earlier that ignoring a post/poster does not mean we would agree with them by our silence. However, it does not mean it is okay to allow them to continuously getting away with their cyber-bullyings as if their trollings (include names-calling), rantings, and brain-washing attempts (disguised as "debating") aren't bad enough.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ottawa convoy protest organizer Pat King denied bail



> _Jordan Press, The Canadian Press, Last Updated Friday, February 25, 2022 4:29PM EST
> 
> OTTAWA - A prominent organizer of the three-week convoy protest outside Parliament Hill that snarled traffic, shuttered businesses and plagued residents with near-constant honking has been denied bail.
> 
> ...


 ... well, well, well, another bozo denied bail with reasons given. And so much for the "strength" of the "surety".

I wonder if a million real bucks (not in crypto-bucks though) would have worked instead of a couple?


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Beaver101 said:


> Ottawa convoy protest organizer Pat King denied bail
> 
> ... well, well, well, another bozo denied bail with reasons given. And so much for the "strength" of the "surety".
> 
> I wonder if a million real bucks (not in crypto-bucks though) would have worked instead of a couple?


Don't say bozo, you will hurt the feelings of the terrorist supporters.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

fstamand said:


> Don't say bozo, you will hurt the feelings of the terrorist supporters.


 ... if that one is too harsh, I got a list of other (fancy) names. 

Boohoo on the feelings - suck them up buttercups. 👞


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Zipper said:


> Spudd why would you ignore me?
> 
> I'm just an aging Geezer who has been there and done that!🧙‍♂️


I haven't ignored you! That's why I could read your posts about Santa and the Easter bunny.


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

Spudd said:


> I haven't ignored you! That's why I could read your posts about Santa and the Easter bunny.


👍🍺


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