# Starting out at 25



## 72camaross

I am reading a lot of these diaries and it's keeping me up late at night! Good reads and good info on this site. 

As you might have guessed, I'm 25 living in the east coast and starting out on my investing journey. Right now I'm still living at home, been working for 2 years since university, don't really enjoy what I do but right now it's a job. I enjoy real estate and number crunching so I'm looking for something in that direction to help get me to financial freedom. 

I will be starting with 10g (cash) trying to make all this possible, god I hope it can work.

My goals seem pretty high to me but hopefully with all info available I can make it happen.
- have enough cash flow to cover my bills
- build the house I want.
- have a net worth of 1M$ by 30. (This is more realistically 35 but I can dream)
- retire at 45 (more like work only when I want to)

I'm sure I'll be posting up a ton of questions on different ways to get started on my goals and I appreciate all of your input! Seems to be a lot of money smart people on here and I like it! 

PS - it's late so if I started this is the wrong section I'm sorry. Cheers.


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## OptsyEagle

Sounds great, I am going to do that too. Oh, I forgot, I am already older than 35. Darn. Sounded like a nice plan too.

Good luck to you on your endeavours. May they all work out well.


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## MoneyGal

You know what, you are already worth a million bucks - if you take your human capital into account. 

Just for fun, plug your numbers into the first calculator at this link. I virtually guarantee you have a holistic net worth in excess of a million bucks (depending on how early you want to retire). 

Now, this isn't how you are used to thinking about your net worth - but it makes perfect sense. Your human capital is like a gold mine or oil well that you are going to slowly monetize over time. It isn't liquid or tradeable, but its value is very real.


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## steve41

Starting out at 25 with effectively zero, and attaining a net worth of $1M at 35 (forget 30) is going to have to involve some form of highly illegal activity, incredible luck playing the lotto, or marrying a millionaire with a weak heart.

Just my humble opinion.


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## the-royal-mail

Thanks for saying what I was thinking, steve41.

This _almost_ smells like buzz for another one of those get rich quick schemes. LOL.


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## 72camaross

MoneyGal - Thanks for the link! I'll probably burn most of the day reading that.

Steve41 and the-royal-mail
Thanks for your input! I do not really know what is realistic vs. unattainable so if you guys could help me work it out that would be great. I was just setting a goal that I could shoot for and see where I end up. I realize I'm starting out with nothing or a load of debt but I'm looking to turn it around over time. And I've got time. I'm looking to learn as much as I can about investing/real estate so if you guys have any books or places to help me get started that would great! I have a computer science background so financing isn't my strong point. But I'm learning.
So what would you guys recommend? What would be a realistic goal if I really just wanted to work for myself eventually? 

I appreciate the eye-opener guys.


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## FrugalTrader

Even though it may sound improbable, if you want it bad enough, it can happen. Although it's family net worth, we started at age 23 with a negative net worth, and now at 30 with almost half million. We expect to reach $1 million in net worth (or more) by 35.


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## the-royal-mail

For the average person of your profile, I think you can aim for the following:

1. pay off your student and car loans
2. save a rainy day fund of about $30K in cash and use it ONLY for life emergencies
3. max out your TFSA (you are allowed $5K per year starting with 2009)
4. max out your RRSP contribution limit (the amount shows on your revenue canada notice of assessement)
5. down payment of 20% on a house
6. stop racking up consumer debt effective immediately
7. forget about retiring at 45. That's not realistic.
8. move away from home now and let your life begin. get an apartment, call professional movers (don't mooch off your friends for this) and let the games begin.

In the next 10-20 years, you will have girlfriend/wife/marriage/kids/divorce, job loss, accidents, disability and broken down cars (which need replacing) all as possible obstacles to what you want to achieve.


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## steve41

The first thing you need to do is get a handle on your most important asset.... your 'career asset'. Determine a realistic salary that you could see yourself earning and, combined with a retirement age and a reasonable investment rate (commensurate with your risk profile). Then run the numbers, and see where your lifestyle level solves. This setting a dollar amount ($1M at age 55, say) drives me nuts. The important metric is lifestyle... that constant level of beer&grocery consumption you can enjoy pre&post retirement such that it takes you out to some ripe old age.

If you have a university degree in a 'power profession'... that $1M at age 55 is more realistic a goal than if you were a store clerk. The store clerk can certainly reach the $1M, but at what cost?.... living under a bridge and dumpster diving, saving his entire paycheck, could allow him to reach his $1M goal, but at what cost? These 'million dollars by 55' rules of thumb are silly... start with the basics.... what you have currently saved, what your paycheck expectation -over time- is. Start there, determine a reasonable lifestyle and the schedule/level of investing which will allow you to achieve that lifestyle.... forget the "$x million by age yy" thing, it is just not a realistic approach.


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## MoneyGal

Your Money Milestones is a great, accessible book. Are you a Stock or a Bond?, Moshe's previous popular finance book, is also VERY worthwhile. I work for the company that created the calculators I linked to so, if you have questions about any of them, fire away. 

Now, coincident with what Steve41 just posted, I'm going to add another perspective. You say you are in computer science, and you don't want to work longer than the next 20 years - fully 20 years before the "normal" retirement age. 

This tells me you aren't crazy about the work you do. Right? 

So one solution would be to invest more in your human capital, so you can find ways to monetize it that are "worth it" for you. Right now, you are planning on abandoning your mine while there's still lots of gold in it. But one key to happiness in life is to find work you truly enjoy. 

I mean, that solution isn't for everybody. But I have never understood the undercurrent of "I need to get out as fast as possible from this job." Blerg! Better to find a job that actually fulfills what you are up to in life.


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## brad

Another good resource is Your Money: The Missing Manual, by J.D. Roth, who runs the Get Rich Slowly blog. He has some good advice on goal-setting and realistic expectations. This is part of the Missing Manual series, published by O'Reilly, which originally focused only on computer software but has now branched out into a variety of topics. The book is written for US-based readers so some of the stuff won't apply to us in Canada, but the basic principles of money management and goal-setting are universal.


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## MoneyGal

Cool! I love the idea of "missing manuals." I'm going to check that book out.


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## OptsyEagle

and don't forget that it is not the goal that is as important as the journey. Since I have gotten that load of malarky out, I will explain it better.

If you can retire on a million dollars and that will give you your financial freedom, then that perhaps should be your goal. But you need to understand that everytime your net worth increases, your options have improved. You see when you have absolutely nothing but a wagon load of debts and your boss comes in to your office to wreck your day (as is a very frequent event for all of the working class), you don't have many choices but to assume the bent over position and prepare to receive. Now if you have lets say, $100,000 in savings, you may still need to work, but you don't necessarily have to work this week and certainly don't have to work for a moron. You see where I am going with this.

Every dollar you accumulate or dollar of debt you reduce, between now and the time you reach your ultimate goal, still gives you more financial flexibility and freedom every day, even while you are still working towards your goals.

This feeling will feed on itself. Good luck to you.


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## the-royal-mail

OptsyEagle said:


> and don't forget that it is not the goal that is as important as the journey. Since I have gotten that load of malarky out, I will explain it better.
> 
> If you can retire on a million dollars and that will give you your financial freedom, then that perhaps should be your goal. But you need to understand that everytime your net worth increases, your options have improved. You see when you have absolutely nothing but a wagon load of debts and your boss comes in to your office to wreck your day (as is a very frequent event for all of the working class), you don't have many choices but to assume the bent over position and prepare to receive. Now if you have lets say, $100,000 in savings, you may still need to work, but you don't necessarily have to work this week and certainly don't have to work for a moron. You see where I am going with this.
> 
> Every dollar you accumulate or dollar of debt you reduce, between now and the time you reach your ultimate goal, still gives you more financial flexibility and freedom every day, even while you are still working towards your goals.
> 
> This feeling will feed on itself. Good luck to you.



*BEAUTIFULLY SAID.*

I should print and frame this.


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## Berubeland

Starting where you are... you can achieve your goal by saving about $4000 per month. That does not include any interest. 

According to TD's retirement calculator you need to contribute about 2800 per month to achieve a $50,000 per year income at 5% interest.

If this is your goal this is what you have to do to make it happen. 

You could also pursue other ways of making income, to increase your net worth. For instance you could save like mad and then buy a 4 plex and live in it for a while. If you buy properly you may be able to live for free and make a small cash flow from your property. In 25 years your building could be paid off and rents generated would be income for you. 

It is possible and people do it, so don't listen to all these people saying it's not possible. It's not easy but it is possible. 

I can say this from my own experience.... find a mate with similar goals and who has a demonstrated ability to save. Working at cross purposes makes it much more difficult.


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## Cal

Tough to guess if it is possible for you, as no annual income/expenses are stated.

As mentioned lots of things can happen in life that can alter your life plan. But you are forming a plan. A great first step.

Best advice I have seen on here yet came from Berubeland 'find a mate with similar goals'. Simply stated.

Stay focused on your goals, reevaluate them periodically, and it will happen. Might be 30, 35, 40....but it will happen.


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## ashby corner

*east coast*

my first recommendation: get away from the east coast.

I grew up (if you can call it that) in NS. Great place to grow up, but I had no idea about the world that was out there---the opportunities are endless. Within 2 years of living in Ontario, I doubled by Halifax salary; within 8 years, I had triped my Halifax salary.

People will say 'oh, but the cost of living in Ontario is higher'. That might be true in Toronto, but it's not province wide.

Move away, and budget for one trip back per year (for Lobster), and THAT will help you achieve your goals that much faster!


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## 72camaross

Wow I has to multi-quote a lot here! Here we go.



FrugalTrader said:


> Even though it may sound improbable, if you want it bad enough, it can happen. Although it's family net worth, we started at age 23 with a negative net worth, and now at 30 with almost half million. We expect to reach $1 million in net worth (or more) by 35.


 FT I have read a lot of your blog, I know you're somewhere on the east coast and you're on a journey I would like to start! If I could do half of what you've done I'd be happy! Thanks



the-royal-mail said:


> For the average person of your profile, I think you can aim for the following:
> 
> 1. pay off your student and car loans
> 2. save a rainy day fund of about $30K in cash and use it ONLY for life emergencies
> 3. max out your TFSA (you are allowed $5K per year starting with 2009)
> 4. max out your RRSP contribution limit (the amount shows on your revenue canada notice of assessement)
> 5. down payment of 20% on a house
> 6. stop racking up consumer debt effective immediately
> 7. forget about retiring at 45. That's not realistic.
> 8. move away from home now and let your life begin. get an apartment, call professional movers (don't mooch off your friends for this) and let the games begin.
> 
> In the next 10-20 years, you will have girlfriend/wife/marriage/kids/divorce, job loss, accidents, disability and broken down cars (which need replacing) all as possible obstacles to what you want to achieve.


I would love to pay off my student loans haha. Luckily I've always paid cash for cars and can fix them at home. I am looking into the TFSA and I contribute a little to RRSPs but not close to enough so this will definitly be something I will work on. I am on a good road to cut consumer debt, I've been working on it for a bit. Cutting costs on anything and everything. Retirement dates will come, I could retire with the company I'm with on a pension and hopefully whatever I do on the side will compliment it. Thanks for all the great points! Sometimes it's a lot for me to take in and I miss some things. Why can't I just marry a millionaire? 



steve41 said:


> The first thing you need to do is get a handle on your most important asset.... your 'career asset'. Determine a realistic salary that you could see yourself earning and, combined with a retirement age and a reasonable investment rate (commensurate with your risk profile). Then run the numbers, and see where your lifestyle level solves. This setting a dollar amount ($1M at age 55, say) drives me nuts. The important metric is lifestyle... that constant level of beer&grocery consumption you can enjoy pre&post retirement such that it takes you out to some ripe old age.
> 
> If you have a university degree in a 'power profession'... that $1M at age 55 is more realistic a goal than if you were a store clerk. The store clerk can certainly reach the $1M, but at what cost?.... living under a bridge and dumpster diving, saving his entire paycheck, could allow him to reach his $1M goal, but at what cost? These 'million dollars by 55' rules of thumb are silly... start with the basics.... what you have currently saved, what your paycheck expectation -over time- is. Start there, determine a reasonable lifestyle and the schedule/level of investing which will allow you to achieve that lifestyle.... forget the "$x million by age yy" thing, it is just not a realistic approach.


I don't mean to have 1M in cash or in a bank account. I just mean in a net worth setting, so with my house/houses, camp, cars etc. Starting with the basics is definitly the best for me since all of it is new. I knew I should have taken business in University but that's another story. Thanks for the input.



MoneyGal said:


> Your Money Milestones is a great, accessible book. Are you a Stock or a Bond?, Moshe's previous popular finance book, is also VERY worthwhile. I work for the company that created the calculators I linked to so, if you have questions about any of them, fire away.
> 
> Now, coincident with what Steve41 just posted, I'm going to add another perspective. You say you are in computer science, and you don't want to work longer than the next 20 years - fully 20 years before the "normal" retirement age.
> 
> This tells me you aren't crazy about the work you do. Right?
> 
> So one solution would be to invest more in your human capital, so you can find ways to monetize it that are "worth it" for you. Right now, you are planning on abandoning your mine while there's still lots of gold in it. But one key to happiness in life is to find work you truly enjoy.
> 
> I mean, that solution isn't for everybody. But I have never understood the undercurrent of "I need to get out as fast as possible from this job." Blerg! Better to find a job that actually fulfills what you are up to in life.


Thanks for the calculators and book links. How do I invest in my human capital? I'm not sure I know what you mean. I tried the calculator it says I'm already worth 1.2M haha so that makes me happy if nothing else.  I am not crazy about the work I do, so getting my career straightened out is a big thing for me too. I can do what I do but I don't wake up and want to go to work. That's what I would love to find. I shouldn't complain about my job because it is great, great benefits, decent wages and pension and I'm pretty good at it! I am looking at part-time jobs to maybe see if there is other fields I would enjoy. Again, thanks for the help, looks like more books for me to read! Can't wait. I'd like to figure out how I can use all those calculators to help plan my future and see how the numbers work.



brad said:


> Another good resource is Your Money: The Missing Manual, by J.D. Roth, who runs the Get Rich Slowly blog. He has some good advice on goal-setting and realistic expectations. This is part of the Missing Manual series, published by O'Reilly, which originally focused only on computer software but has now branched out into a variety of topics. The book is written for US-based readers so some of the stuff won't apply to us in Canada, but the basic principles of money management and goal-setting are universal.


Thanks brad! I think that'd be a good book to start with that way I can set up a plan with goals that are not dreamy. O'Reilly..takes me back 2 years to university haha. 



OptsyEagle said:


> and don't forget that it is not the goal that is as important as the journey. Since I have gotten that load of malarky out, I will explain it better.
> 
> If you can retire on a million dollars and that will give you your financial freedom, then that perhaps should be your goal. But you need to understand that everytime your net worth increases, your options have improved. You see when you have absolutely nothing but a wagon load of debts and your boss comes in to your office to wreck your day (as is a very frequent event for all of the working class), you don't have many choices but to assume the bent over position and prepare to receive. Now if you have lets say, $100,000 in savings, you may still need to work, but you don't necessarily have to work this week and certainly don't have to work for a moron. You see where I am going with this.
> 
> Every dollar you accumulate or dollar of debt you reduce, between now and the time you reach your ultimate goal, still gives you more financial flexibility and freedom every day, even while you are still working towards your goals.
> 
> This feeling will feed on itself. Good luck to you.


It is the journey I'm excited for, I know it's going to be a roller-coaster. I get what you mean with the 1M vs 100,000$ in savings. I would be happy being fired knowing I could take my time to find another job I like instead of feeling pressured to get something right away.


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## 72camaross

Berubeland said:


> Starting where you are... you can achieve your goal by saving about $4000 per month. That does not include any interest.
> 
> According to TD's retirement calculator you need to contribute about 2800 per month to achieve a $50,000 per year income at 5% interest.
> 
> If this is your goal this is what you have to do to make it happen.
> 
> You could also pursue other ways of making income, to increase your net worth. For instance you could save like mad and then buy a 4 plex and live in it for a while. If you buy properly you may be able to live for free and make a small cash flow from your property. In 25 years your building could be paid off and rents generated would be income for you.
> 
> It is possible and people do it, so don't listen to all these people saying it's not possible. It's not easy but it is possible.
> 
> I can say this from my own experience.... find a mate with similar goals and who has a demonstrated ability to save. Working at cross purposes makes it much more difficult.


Berubeland, you are very good with numbers I think, I enjoy reading your posts on the property managment side of life. I am looking at increasing my net worth by living in a triplex or 4plex currently actually. One in my town is for sale, needs some work that I could do and I'm still learning on how to crunch the numbers on it to make sure it is somewhat close to positive cash flow. Finding a 'mate' with similar goals is something I never would of thought of, I guess there will be a talk coming up. haha Thanks!



Cal said:


> Tough to guess if it is possible for you, as no annual income/expenses are stated.
> 
> As mentioned lots of things can happen in life that can alter your life plan. But you are forming a plan. A great first step.
> 
> Best advice I have seen on here yet came from Berubeland 'find a mate with similar goals'. Simply stated.
> 
> Stay focused on your goals, reevaluate them periodically, and it will happen. Might be 30, 35, 40....but it will happen.


I would like to form a pretty solid plan that I have in writing so I can see it, read it and remind myself of it daily. 
Right now I'm at home so my expenses are about 1100$/month. That's all my loans and credit cards, insurance, etc. I gross about 67k$/year. Thanks Cal!

I hope I didn't miss any other great posts! Thanks guys! I now have atleast a better starting point with some of these books I can read to set goals I actually can achieve.
JD


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## 72camaross

ashby corner said:


> my first recommendation: get away from the east coast.
> 
> I grew up (if you can call it that) in NS. Great place to grow up, but I had no idea about the world that was out there---the opportunities are endless. Within 2 years of living in Ontario, I doubled by Halifax salary; within 8 years, I had triped my Halifax salary.
> 
> People will say 'oh, but the cost of living in Ontario is higher'. That might be true in Toronto, but it's not province wide.
> 
> Move away, and budget for one trip back per year (for Lobster), and THAT will help you achieve your goals that much faster!


haha that is true. I lived in Ottawa for a year working for the Federal Gov. Also a great job with great pay. Loved the people I worked with but didn't really like the work I was doing. They offered my a full-time permanent job and I turned it down...sometimes I wonder...
My problem is I love the East Coast too much to leave, not to say I didn't have a blast in ON just not the same as here though. I still go to Ottawa twice a year just to see friends! I love that city.


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## Sampson

FrugalTrader said:


> Even though it may sound improbable, if you want it bad enough, it can happen. Although it's family net worth, we started at age 23 with a negative net worth, and now at 30 with almost half million. We expect to reach $1 million in net worth (or more) by 35.


I'm with FT on this one. The goal is certainly attainable.

I got my first real job when I was 26-27 earning $28k/yr, worth about $10k then. We have been saving and investing aggressively for 4 years now, 30-50% savings rate. Our projections have us at $1M by 34-35.

Nothing illegal, fortunate with real estate, good jobs with significant raises, ultra-frugal attitude.

Keep at it, aim high, and make sure you remember to have fun along the way.


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## 72camaross

Sampson said:


> I'm with FT on this one. The goal is certainly attainable.
> 
> I got my first real job when I was 26-27 earning $28k/yr, worth about $10k then. We have been saving and investing aggressively for 4 years now, 30-50% savings rate. Our projections have us at $1M by 34-35.
> 
> Nothing illegal, fortunate with real estate, good jobs with significant raises, ultra-frugal attitude.
> 
> Keep at it, aim high, and make sure you remember to have fun along the way.


Thanks Sampson! I hope the journey will be enjoyable for sure! You are on a path I hope to make it on to. There are some things happening that will push rental units and property up around where I'm at so I'm hoping to be able to pick a couple propterties up over the years (hopefully 2 in 5 years). We shall see.


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## 72camaross

update 2010-05-04:

- Paid off all my credit card debt.

This was huge for me haha because I'd been carrying the debt for too long. My goal now is to never use them again and only buy with what's in my account.

Now I'm left with a Line of Credit and Student Loan. I hope to have the Line of Credit paid off before my job ends (if it ends, I'm on a contract).

I'm looking into a new business venture as well. Nothing big but something to do on nights and weekends with a partner/friend. Hopefully it will increase my cash flow and I'll be able to apply it towards my debt and/or a downpayment on a rental property that will be my primary residence.

I've been shopping for rental properties in the area and there are a couple of attractive ones. Some in my budget and some a little outside. I'm still learning everything I need to know about this kind of stuff so I'm taking my time.

I do have a couple questions though:
1) How can I tell if a TFSA is right for me? 
- I'm not sure how these work and I don't invest any of my money. I'm only using a simple savings account but I'd like to learn to do more with the money I have sitting there.

2) What do you landlords look for in a good rental property? 
- I will be living there so it's a little different than an investment property. Still trying to figure out all the rule changes that just happened!


Goals:
1) Pay off Line of Credit
2) Build stronger emergency fund
3) Have decent down payment on primary residence
4) Contribute more to my RRSPs
5) Read/learn how to invest, stocks, bonds etc etc. Still very new to me.

We will see what is to come!


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## the-royal-mail

TFSA is great - use it to park cash and make 1-2% interest vs. next to nothing in savings. $5K contribution limit per year since 2009, can be withdrawn tax free anytime but withdrawals cannot be recontributed until the following calendar year. I think everyone should have one. Mine is maxed out, has $10K in cash in it. When you go to sign up banks ask you questions about investor profile etc but just make it clear it's merely a place to stick cash.


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## 72camaross

*update 2010-10-13*

update 2010-10-13

Well it's been about 5 months since my last update. Lots has been happening.

1) Bought a house unexpectedly. It came up, estate sale, was way too good to pass up. I will have 3 roommates once the reno's are finished. They will help pay off bills/mortgage. In order for me to do that I had to put about 6k on my LOC, which was fine because it was paid off.

2) Had a wedding I had to go to out of province and my gf wanted a trip I told her we'd go on last year and never did so this year I had to bite the bullet and go. Luckily it was under 600$ for the first one and about 800$ for the wedding. Only a lot of wear and tear on my car.

3) I bought some parts for my camaro because it's been sitting for too long. I want to put it together and either enjoy it or sell it.

4) Bought a small business with a friend. We work it at nights throughout the spring/summer/fall. This year we lost money but it was expected. Next year is hopefully going to be a different story. This ate a lot of my savings as well.

Net Income: 3200$/month

Here's the break down of expenses:
Mortgage/property tax: 340 $/biweekly
Insurance (car, motorcycle, house): 124 $/monthly
blue cross: 55 $/monthly (looking into assured access since I'm on a group plan as well)
Student loan: 404 $/monthly
Water: ~300 $/6 months
Heat/cable/internet is all still waiting until the house is done. hydro is around 50 dollars while we work on the house. My friends and I are doing all the work.
cell: ~70 $/month.
GAS: alot
The rest is food/savings etc

My savings account is pretty much emptied right now. I'd be in big trouble with a job loss so the next couple of months will be a little stressful.

The plan right now is:

1) Focus on the 3 tier savings plan. I have the 3rd tier set up through work, waiting for my banker to help me set up the TFSA to dump 20% of my net income every cheque to be my 1st tier. Once it's up enough I will work on tier 2. The 3rd tier gets some money off every cheque. It's not nearly enough but until I get the other tiers filled up I will only give 50 $/cheque.

2) Finish the house reno's. This is hard on my savings because I am running out of time (winter is coming) and losing rent money the longer it takes to get things done. Hopefully only another month until we're in. I have about ~4500 left for reno's. I have windows to put in and some painting/trim left to do. We already did all new hardwood floors on the cheap. I save a lot of money when I pay workers with "pops" and pizza.

3) Get the camaro back in working order. I need it out of it's current garage (my parents second garage) because they want to rent it out and I don't blame them. So it will be going to paint and body shop shortly, then reassembled until I can find a powerplant to put in it. This is also hard on the savings because nothing for these cars is cheap. Luckily a friend has a paint and body shop that I can store it at for free and pay them off as I get the money which will help.

So my goals from my last update:
1) Pay off Line of Credit - DONE and then used 6K$ but now sits at 5600$
2) Build stronger emergency fund - Working on my 3 tiers of savings
3) Have decent down payment on primary residence - Bought a house, doing renos, having roommates and can always sell at a profit.
4) Contribute more to my RRSPs - waiting to build up first 2 tiers of savings
5) Read/learn how to invest, stocks, bonds etc etc. Still very new to me. Need more time to do this. Getting closer but lots of reading to do yet.

New Goals:
1) Finish house
2) Finish car
3) Pay off new LOC balance
4) Build up 3 tiers of savings
5) Save/invest/repeat. Still learning the ropes before I jump in.

Any more advice? Help? Parts? haha


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## the-royal-mail

Excellent!!!!!! Wow you've done remarkably well.

Question: $404 a month to pay student loans...how much is this loan for? Is this the same as the LOC balance you mention as a new goal or are there two debts? It doesn't seem clear in your latest post.


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## 72camaross

the-royal-mail said:


> Excellent!!!!!! Wow you've done remarkably well.
> 
> Question: $404 a month to pay student loans...how much is this loan for? Is this the same as the LOC balance you mention as a new goal or are there two debts? It doesn't seem clear in your latest post.


Oh sorry. It is completly separate from my LOC.
That is my National Student Loan with an outstanding balance of ~41k$. The amount of money I'm losing or paying in interest on that loan is killing me slowly everyday...

My 3 major debts I need to get out of are:
house 115k$
student loan 41k$
LOC 5.6k$

I want to take care of the LOC first but then I don't know which to tackle secondly. The mortgage or the loan. The interest on the loan is tax deductible if that helps any?


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## the-royal-mail

Yikes. Thanks for clarifying.

If it were me, I think I would pay off the LOC (in full) first, student loan second. I don't consider mortgage payments as debt and would personally feel more comfortable with 3-tiers of savings in hand and mortgage payments, rather than no mortgage payments and no rainy day tiers available to you in case of adversity. 

I would do all of this before paying down one more penny towards mortgage, tier 3 or spending any more signifcant $ fixing up the car.

Unfortunately you will be vulnerable for the next little while, but it's better if adversity strikes with little/no LOC and student loan debt, than for adversity to strike with those things on your back. If that occurs, you have virtually no wiggle room.


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## 72camaross

I think you are right trm. The bank also keeps saying if I didn't have this student loan I'd be set. So I think with any extra cash I have left over after bills will go towards LOC then Student Loan.

Would you pay them off before you start saving or try and do both at the same time?

Anyone else have some input? haha not that I don't appreciate yours trm!! Thanks for everything.


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## Four Pillars

It looks like you are working pretty hard on your finances - kudos for starting the business.

Can I suggest that you sell the Camaro? Old cars like that are money pits and you just have too much on your plate right now. Fixing up house, getting the business going is way more than enough to keep you busy.

It doesn't really sound like you have the cash flow to do all these things either.

Sell the car - you can always buy another one just like it in a few years when you have more cash and more time.


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## FrugalTrader

If he sells the Camaro, he would need to change his forum handle.


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## 72camaross

Four Pillars said:


> It looks like you are working pretty hard on your finances - kudos for starting the business.
> 
> Can I suggest that you sell the Camaro? Old cars like that are money pits and you just have too much on your plate right now. Fixing up house, getting the business going is way more than enough to keep you busy.
> 
> It doesn't really sound like you have the cash flow to do all these things either.
> 
> Sell the car - you can always buy another one just like it in a few years when you have more cash and more time.


Thanks Four Pillars, I am trying to get my finances aligned with my dreams of being well off when I'm older.

The thought of selling my baby has crossed my mind, I did offer it to a couple people but they had enough on their plate as well. The thing with this car (68 camaro) is I can let it sit and it will be worth more then what I paid for it, it just means it will be sitting longer. That's something I will just have to live with. I will have to move it but that's just a weekend job and I'll store it somewheres else! You are right, it's one of the biggest money pits I've seen. 

I definitly do not have the cashflow to do everything I want. 



FrugalTrader said:


> If he sells the Camaro, he would need to change his forum handle.


FT, my family still has the 72 Camaro which gave me the bug to have my own...maybe I should change my handle to 68Camaross??

Thanks guys.


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## Four Pillars

Fair enough - if you can just store it somewhere and leave it - that might be the best choice for now.

And just so we all know what is being discussed...


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## 72camaross

Well it's been a while since I posted in here. It's been a little rough since christmas and I had some credit card debt sneak up from the holidays and some unexpected expenses... 

Oh and I also bought a trip south with the gf.

Oh and I bought a rental house with my father, had some major renos but it's now +400$ month cashflow, so that's nice.

Oh and I also spent 2200$ (VISA) to become a Realtor. So that makes 3 jobs? for me I think..

My crohn's thought it would be fun to put me in the hospital for half of february so I while I had time to think/plan I have started March as the month to start living below my means as priority #1.

Here's where I stand as far as debt:
home mortgage: ~114k
rental mortgage: ~38k (shared between myself and father)
Student Loan: 40k
LOC: 13k - I paid my CC off with the LOC

Summer is coming, there is no money for the camaro  and I'll need about 500$ for my other money pit, the CBR1000RR... 
If I sold my toys I'd probably be pretty well off...

but that being said my driveway sealing business will be starting up again and this should be a growth year for business since last year we got the kinks worked out. Also I will be a licensed Realtor so maybe I can pick up a little income from that on top of my 9-to-5er..

Anyway that's my update so I can track myself. Feel free to flame on me and let me have it. Sometimes you just need a slap in the face..

Lastly, I just turned 26! The last year has been ups and downs haha hopefully I can refocus and get going in the right direction again.


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## Jon_Snow

Just skimmed through the thread... I'm thinkin' your "millionaire by 30" goal is in real jeopardy.


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## 72camaross

Haha I had a chuckle after reading my first post again. Live and learn I guess. I can't say it was bad to dream though because it got me on here and started in the right direction. 

The 30 year mark is definitly in jeopardy lol! Kids these days... 

I'll have to take some time to realign my goals with reality and come up with an updated list. 

#1 - spend less than I make. I'll start here haha


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## PF_Enthusiast

72camaross said:


> #1 - spend less than I make. I'll start here haha


That is definitely your number 1 priority, as you already are aware 

At 25 going on 26, you still have quite a time horizon to become a millionare so don't give up or lose focus. I'm 26 going on 27, and I love bikes as well (GSXR man myself),cars not so much, so I can understand your feelings towards your "toys". One thing I can say, and of course it's biased given my passion for bikes, but a preowned bike that's a few years old can be picked up for half of a brand new bike MSRP! Resale value usually holds quite well depending on what time of year you sell, so basically your out the taxes, maintenance, insurance costs and fuel. Add those costs up and if it makes you cringe, consider just keeping the Camaro. Same goes for the Camero vs CBR1000. 2 "toys" can become quite costly and slowly eat at your income, which in turn, puts you that much further from the 1 million


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## Four Pillars

Thanks for updating. While your specific financial numbers haven't really improved, you seem to be pretty keen on developing more income via your business and selling real estate.

I think that is a big plus - your ability to earn income is your biggest asset.


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## 72camaross

Thanks PF. So do buy in winter and sell in fall? Mine has been paid off so its only maintenance and insurance that I pay. Insurance for the bike is 37$ a month so its not too bad. I also use the bike to commute to work (260kms a day) so it saves some gas if I don't play. I'd never buy new. I got my '06 in '09 with 3200 kms on it for 7000$ I thought it was a decent deal. 

Four pillars, my numbers were depressing when I was typing them out because they are basically the same if not worse. I do enjoy trying to find ways to make money using whatever skills I have or can develope. I just hope these skills and small businesses start making money instead of all these start up costs.


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## GeniusBoy27

MoneyGal said:


> I mean, that solution isn't for everybody. But I have never understood the undercurrent of "I need to get out as fast as possible from this job." Blerg! Better to find a job that actually fulfills what you are up to in life.


I didn't see this quote by MoneyGal previously, but this hits it right on the spot. When people ask me when I want to retire, I look at them really strange. 

I don't want to retire. I'm doing what I want to be doing, even if I won $50 million in the lottery. Maybe you enjoy being on the golf course 12 hours a day, and you have to find a job as a means to an end, but trust me, it's far better to go through life doing something you truly love.

I have a friend who owns 15 properties in Winnipeg. He loves being a landlord/real estate developer. But once he got to the 15, he said, that's enough. I don't want to get bigger. I make lots of passive income. I'm going to buy some property in Arizona and take some time there, and travel. Now, isn't that cool? He loves what he does.

A medical student asked me yesterday how do you choose what specialty I chose. I said I chose the specialty that provided me with the most fun. I love going to work. I love being at work. And when I go home, I don't think about work (well, not that often). Isn't that the way it's supposed to be?


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## the-royal-mail

_Originally Posted by MoneyGal
I mean, that solution isn't for everybody. But I have never understood the undercurrent of "I need to get out as fast as possible from this job." Blerg! Better to find a job that actually fulfills what you are up to in life. _

How nice for those who can accomplish that. For the rest of us, this is nearly impossible. I've only rarely had jobs that fulfilled me as described above, and when I did they came to an abrupt end and they threw my career progress backwards. Finding work these days is very difficult, with all the competition and super-picky employers these days each applicant needs to fit the job description like a pair of tight leather pants or else they won't even reply to your application. Please do not simplify that which is very, very difficult.


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## GeniusBoy27

Camaross:

The numbers you posted are essentially the same (well, technically worse).

What is the focus and/or priority?


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## steve41

I have repeated this on several threads, but it bears re-stating. I see a lot of plans, and my impression is that individuals really don't start to save for retirement until their 40s. It is simply the way the numbers work. When you are in your early career, your income is relatively small, and your expenses are commensurately high. You are paying down student/real estate debt, you (perhaps) have child rearing costs, educational advancement, .... you are in the "just starting out" phase of life.... 

Once your career/business starts to grow, your income trajectory will in all likelihood far exceed inflation, your debts will begin to be paid off, and your kids will (hopefully) be on their way. It is then when you can start to worry about saving for retirement in earnest.

My opinion.


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## I'm Howard

The Grand Parents will leave an Estate, the Boomers will leave an Estate, this Generation is in line to receive major inheritances.

The dotty old Aunt who has lived in that Semi in the Beach since 1940, guess what, it is worth $500,000++ and the clock is ticking.

That Portugese immigrant of the '50's who only worked as a floor cleaner but bought a house near Bathurst, now worth $400,000+++ , someone will get the money.


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## the-royal-mail

GeniusBoy27 said:


> What is the focus and/or priority?


status quo, apparently.


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## Four Pillars

GeniusBoy27 said:


> ...
> 
> A medical student asked me yesterday how do you choose what specialty I chose. I said I chose the specialty that provided me with the most fun. I love going to work. I love being at work. And when I go home, I don't think about work (well, not that often). Isn't that the way it's supposed to be?


I had a dream job a long time ago. My problem is that I still have that same job. 

It's hard enough to find a job you really like, but to keep liking it indefinitely is near impossible.


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## Jon_Snow

Not sure how this discussion morphed into a "job satisfaction" thread.  I just can't resist sharing my thoughts on this, as it is something I think about alot.

I have no problem admitting that I don't like my job much - its certainly not my dream job. But it pays well, lots of perks (DB pension, company car with gas card etc). To change jobs now would be risky. Now in my late 30's my plan is to stick it out for another 5 years. By then, barring the unforeseen, I should be in a finanical position to quite simply exit the rat race, the 9 to 5 meatgrinder. Since my wife will likely keep working (she loves her job), I could probably not work at all, since we will have no mortgage, kids, car payments. On her income alone we could save 20k per year, as opposed to the 70k we save per year now.

A likely scenario is that I will seek that mythical "dream job" that others speak of. If it pays well, great. If it doesn't pay at all, great. Or maybe I'll simply pursue my interests and hobbies. How I look foward to that day.


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## crazyjackcsa

The old "do what you love, love what you do" Axiom.

I'm doing it, and I hate it. 

I love what I do. In, fact both myself and my wife got into our "dream jobs" (I'm a Radio reporter she's a photographer)

We're both horribly underpaid, with no job security, and very few transferrable skills.

If somebody rolled up tomorrow and said "I'll offer you twice as much money for a job you like half as much," I'd take it.


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## 72camaross

GeniusBoy27 said:


> Camaross:
> 
> The numbers you posted are essentially the same (well, technically worse).
> 
> What is the focus and/or priority?


The focus is to live below my means. period. If I can do that then the extra money can go towards debt again. I was doing well at it last year and kinda fell off the wagon so to speak. It was for opportunities so I guess it wasn't that bad of a decision but none the less here I am.

jon_snow: you save more a year than I gross...  haha


As far as the job of your dreams debate, I agree not many people find a job they love to wake up and go do. I am currently on a quest to find mine haha. AND if you are lucky enough to find a job you love and it doesn't feel like work, it probably doesn't pay the bills or make you rich like someone mentioned above. In that situation it comes down to what you want from life. I think it would be the most amazing thing to wake up and go do something that paid you and didn't feel like you were working. 

It's funny, at my current job they had some program come in and test us on our personalities and work ethics etc to see where we would work best and succeed. I think it was bologna but they tell me I'm in a job where I should be happy and do well. Problem is I'm not happy and want more. We shall see. I'll put in my 110% at this job but I'm also going to see what I can accomplish in my time after hours.


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## GeniusBoy27

*laughing* ... I remember taking that test when I was a teenager. It told me to be a rocket scientist.

Now, if I could be an astronaut, that would be a really cool job.


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## 72camaross

You laugh but my company is using it to hand out promotions and change peoples jobs. Its unreal. 

Cashman rings a bell but I'll find out what company does it and let you know


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## 72camaross

It always makes me laugh when I read my first post over again. And the last couple of posts I had when I came straight out of the hospital on heavy steroids and other random drugs... It's like reading something someone else wrote.

Anyway just wanted to see the diary. My health has been somewhat stable for 6 months so that's exciting but in the meantime I've slipped deeper into the rabbit hole. I don't want to talk about it because it's depressing!  haha but I keep trying to move forward.

I did have a little bad luck when my car died. Had to buy one since I travel 260+ kms a day. (hopefully not for too much longer) Gas prices are killing me slowly.

If anyone is interested I'm raising money for an event I'm in. the money goes towards finding a cure for Crohn's and Colitis.
http://www.ccfc.ca/faf/donorReg/donorPledge.asp?ievent=1017862&lis=0&kntae1017862=CCA106E5AA44461DA09A61861A77F4FD&supId=355403676

or if that doesn't work
http://www.ccfc.ca/saintjohngolf

Hope everyone is doing well!!

J


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## MoneyGal

crazyjackcsa said:


> The old "do what you love, love what you do" Axiom.
> 
> I'm doing it, and I hate it.
> 
> I love what I do. In, fact both myself and my wife got into our "dream jobs" (I'm a Radio reporter she's a photographer)
> 
> We're both horribly underpaid, with no job security, and very few transferrable skills.
> 
> If somebody rolled up tomorrow and said "I'll offer you twice as much money for a job you like half as much," I'd take it.


Well, to be fair, this isn't what I said. I think the advice "do what you love" is really crappy. What I said was, "find a job you like." This is actually the opposite thing from "do what you love." Twice as much money for a job you "like" (not love) sounds like a good tradeoff to me.


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## Causalien

> I had a dream job a long time ago. My problem is that I still have that same job.
> 
> It's hard enough to find a job you really like, but to keep liking it indefinitely is near impossible.


I once threw away everything for my dream job.
Burnt out within a year and realized what my dream job isn't.


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## Plugging Along

MoneyGal said:


> Well, to be fair, this isn't what I said. I think the advice "do what you love" is really crappy. What I said was, "find a job you like." This is actually the opposite thing from "do what you love." Twice as much money for a job you "like" (not love) sounds like a good tradeoff to me.



I have always looked at it is 'love what you do' which is also different. It's rare to find a perfect job, oweveR most jobs have some redeeming quality, and if one focuses on the positive rather than he negatives, it makes it a lot easier. A positive for a job one may only like is that they get paid more which hey should love. 

Just agreeing with your sentiment.


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