# Why does "Frugal" scare people? How do you try and open others eyes?



## showmethemoney45 (Feb 27, 2015)

Since I started really tracking my spending and paying down my debt I have felt a lot happier with life. (I am far from perfect as I still "consume" **** that I regret) Most of my friends/family are big consumers of "stuff" but have loads and debt and can't seem to grasp the relationship. They believe giving up the "stuff" would mean less happiness. Anyways, how do you explain to friends in a non-lecture form how to be more frugal? I love my friends/family and want them to be happy but watching them get deeper in debt is frustrating. Just curious if anyone else gets the eye roll when you talk budget with people...


Happy Halloween


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## lost in space (Aug 31, 2015)

Was taking a Happy and Fulfilling life course from Coursera and the professor was some Indian dude and he made a comment I never forgot, people trade happyness for money. Once your aware of it you really notice it. Best you can do is live an example.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

showmethemoney45 said:


> Anyways, how do you explain to friends in a non-lecture form how to be more frugal? I love my friends/family and want them to be happy but watching them get deeper in debt is frustrating. Just curious if anyone else gets the eye roll when you talk budget with people...


I have had a few conversations like this with friends and family, and some were life-changing for them.

It was earlier in life, when people were starting to have loftier goals (marriage, buying a home, kids), and that tied very closely with the change in spending habits. Their feedback was the same, at first they thought the could never afford to buy a house or spend money to raise kids. But showing that a financial/savings plan can get you there using a budget was the eye-opening moment. How many young people say they could never buy a house? But if you show them that saving a few thousand bucks every year for 5 years gets you a down payment, then the previously unattainable becomes within grasp.

With all the said, I have also had friends that completely reject the idea completely, and this usually comes down to delayed gratification. People are unwilling to give up the present day 'stuff', even if it means achieving larger goals in the future. It really depends on how big the carrot in front of them is. One thing I have found to be true though, is that at some point, people all make this realization, whether it happens early in life, or later and people are forced to plan and save (for retirement, or an unforseen repair bill etc), eventually most people suck it up. Usually this is filled with regret and missed opportunities.

It makes me super happy when I can convince people to manage their finances, and for those that don't, as they say, you can lead a horse to water....


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I don't know..........spending money always seems to make me happy.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> .spending money always seems to make me happy.


 On opposite, getting money always seems to make me happy.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

I think you're confusing two concepts here. Frugal means living below ones means and buying what is necessary at the best value (not necessarily the lowest cost).

Exchanging money for happiness is a different concept. Spending money on things never makes one happy. At least not in the long term. Short term yes. Spending money on experiences will always make you happy. And that's happiness that lasts forever.
Nobody on their death bed has ever thought 'I wish I traveled less when I was young' or "I wish I bought more tv's and depreciating objects when I had the chance"
There's a whole body of research on the value of experiences and how money and happiness are not directly correlated. Some interested TED talks on it if you have the time. I've always thought about writing a book on the subject.

In terms of things that will give you the most long term happiness (an example), from lowest to highest:
Buying a ferrari
Renting a ferrari by yourself in Vegas and driving it around a closed track at top speed
Renting ferraris with your best friends and race around a closed track at top speed.

Experiences are better, and experiences spent with loved ones are even better still. People always say "I wish <insert loved one> was here/could see this"

The other bonus about experiences is they are usually a one time purchase which pays 'happiness' dividends for life. But consumer/stuff purchases usually result in monthly or yearly costs (cable tv, insurance, repairs, etc).
If you get true long term happiness out of "stuff", then it's likely due to a false sense of pride, a shallow ego rooted in a desire to be respected by others, or some other weakness of the mind.


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## Taraz (Nov 24, 2013)

gibor said:


> On opposite, getting money always seems to make me happy.


Seeing my money make more money in the stock market makes me the happiest. It's like my money is making little baby monies! Totes adorbs. :tickled_pink:


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

I think in a twisted perverse way the expression "money can't buy happiness" is interpreted by many to mean "money can't buy happiness so I might as well spend it all instead of saving it" :stupid:

They would be wise to learn that money DOES buy happiness, so you best be saving some of it for your future happy self.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

If you see somebody spending $300 on a steak dinner and knowing they pay 20% interest on a credit card maybe speak up.I have never had this conversation with anyone but I likely would tell somebody to shut the hell up lol


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

People don't like being preached to
if you dish out life advice to anybody without being asked it tends to offend people
sorta the holier than thou effect(your not on equal footing)
generally speaking most people who have money tend to make a lot more than the people who are given the advice
That is my take
best not to go around preaching about it.
No different than a friend who found 'jesus' and than tries to convince everyone they know they should see the 'light'-method doesn't work well.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

People do tend to confuse frugality with minimalism, and the latter is certainly not for everyone.

The frugal person says... "I'm not going to buy this item right now, but instead wait until it goes on sale or pick it up used for a fraction of the price". The minimalist says "I'm not going to buy this at all because I don't need it and it won't make me happy".

Stuff vs. experiences is a tricky area because it's not usually black and white... certain experiences require buyuing stuff, and in other cases owning the right stuff improves existing experiences. I could say "I'll never buy a PS4" even though there's a game I really want to play... so I miss out on that experience (unless a friend already owns it). If I was frugal on the other hand, I can still have the experience of the PS4, but just not right away.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> The frugal person says... "I'm not going to buy this item right now, but instead wait until it goes on sale or pick it up used for a fraction of the price".


 Frugal person says "I'm not going to buy this item because I personally (or my family) don't really need it"  
ex. I could've buy new Lamborghini, but Honda Civic is enough for me and I better spend $$$ on travel


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Deleted


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

What if it's someone you care about like a family member?


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Deleted


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

You can't tell anybody anything. We are all brought up to believe in buying things we don't want with money we don't have to impress people we don't like. Only a few wonder why it don't work.

Go ahead and learn to spend your money wisely and get full value for each buck. Eventually your friends and family may notice that you seem to live about as well as they do, but seem happier and less stressed, and have a lot less debt, in fact you have money in the bank where they have nothing but payments every month.

Once they figure this out one of two things will happen. They will ask you for money (don't give it to them) or they will ask for advice (this you can hand out).


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

"


showmethemoney45 said:


> Since I started really tracking my spending and paying down my debt I have felt a lot happier with life. (I am far from perfect as I still "consume" **** that I regret) Most of my friends/family are big consumers of "stuff" but have loads and debt and can't seem to grasp the relationship. They believe giving up the "stuff" would mean less happiness. Anyways, how do you explain to friends in a non-lecture form how to be more frugal? I love my friends/family and want them to be happy but watching them get deeper in debt is frustrating. Just curious if anyone else gets the eye roll when you talk budget with people...
> 
> 
> Happy Halloween


I am known to be pretty frugal. I say I am cheap, but people have told me that they think I am smart with my money. I don't tell people at all on what they should spend their money on. It's their money. If they ask, about money, I tell them about the decisions and choices I have made and why. It's up to them on how it may or may not apply to their situation. If they talk about their debt, I just listen. I may ask a question or two, regarding if they are looking to change the situation or are they comfortable with the situation. I don't tell them to get out of debt, and agree we make different choices. 



peterk said:


> I think in a twisted perverse way the expression "money can't buy happiness" is interpreted by many to mean "money can't buy happiness so I might as well spend it all instead of saving it" :stupid:
> 
> They would be wise to learn that money DOES buy happiness, so you best be saving some of it for your future happy self.


I actually don't quite agree with this. Money does not buy happiness rather it buys choices. If you are already unhappy, buying stuff will not make you any happier. Having money really equates to having choice when an opportunity arrives. 
I tell my kids this all the time. If they spend on their money on junk just because they have it, and then one day the 'thing' they want the most happens, and they don't have the money. It's important to know what makes one happy and then have the money to buy those choices. 



Ag Driver said:


> I don't tell people how to spend their money unless they ask. Simple as that.


This.



Sherlock said:


> What if it's someone you care about like a family member?


If they ask, then you can give some advice, but it's not your life.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

I've spent a lot of time, collectively, thinking about this through the years.

I've naively thought in the past that I could help friends or even family if I could just share some of the most valuable & important bare bones of the knowledge that I've learned that they'd eat it up and potentially move forward on stronger footing.

I've since learned that it's a complete waste of time, at least so far, to the best of my knowledge.

Seems most people will cling to their world-view with an almost admirable tenacity in the face of any presentation of ideas.

I can help people of a similar mind, through sharing of ideas, knowledge and discoveries, but to those otherwise seemingly intelligent people that have no interest in examining their own thinking in the area (pretty much everyone), I've learned that it's better to just appreciate them for what and where they are and not say anything, even if you can see their trajectory, unless they ask ofc, but even then, it's so difficult to know even where to start, but I do try. 

Who's to say who's right, even friends with eternal credit card debt seem to find a happiness in their journey..
___



> I don't tell people how to spend their money unless they ask. Simple as that.


^Ag Driver said it better


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I know since I've started to take a deeper interest in investing (10 years or so now), I'm much happier. Our plan is coming together thanks to being frugal (not cheap): economical when it comes to money.

Instead of being a total "consumer", I use what I need and very little more. I'm helping my wallet, my sanity, and the environment this way....

As I get older, I care less about "stuff". We have a decent home and I drive a 15-year-old car. I couldn't care less what other people drive or how big their home is. 

To answer your question, I don't lecture my friends or family. If they ask me about something, I tell them what I think. If they don't ask, I don't offer unsolicited advice.

You can stop the eye-rolling from others if you simply listen more than you talk.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Given the choice of $25,000 cash or a fine old classic car............I would take the car keys.

Money keeps coming in every month, but classic cars don't.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I was in the water store today, and had a discussion with the owner about different types of filters etc.

After discussing water taste from our old city and new city and bottled water, he said taste depends on what you are used to drinking.

I think the same applies to saving or spending. Some people are happy saving and some people are happy spending....whatever they are used to.

In our family of 5 kids, 4 of us were spenders and 1 sister was a saver. She saved her candy, and then we all shared it later


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

My Own Advisor said:


> I know since I've started to take a deeper interest in investing (10 years or so now), I'm much happier. Our plan is coming together thanks to being frugal (not cheap): economical when it comes to money.


I had about 100K+ sitting in a savings account for a couple years making nothing while the stock market bottomed out. It would have been a great time to buy but I never put in the time to educate myself in financial matters. I am much happier not know that I'm doing the financially optimal method of couch potato-ing. I find it takes all the stress about savings out of the equation. It's nice to not have to worry about any of that stuff anymore.

I'm in a bit of a savings rut right now and I need to learn to spend more actually. I save about 50% of my pay check give or take. I hope after the tax refund in April my financial future will be a bit more solid and I can start spending a bit more. Divorce is expensive!


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## Moneytoo (Mar 26, 2014)

To me, "frugal" sounds like "frigid". I prefer to earn a lot and spend a lot (although now I call it saving & investing lol but it's very similar to shopping - only buying stocks instead of shoes...)


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## DollaWine (Aug 4, 2015)

I find that making money and saving it actually makes me happy. Spending money kind of ... upsets me? Maybe "upsets" isn't the word. But I definitely have a strong desire to stack savings. The peace of mind is satisfying and makes me feel focused and responsible.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

@None,

That's a good chunk of cash "sitting".

I think with financial security comes confidence, lots of it. With confidence, there is less stress. With less stress there is happiness... In some respects, money does buy happiness but only to a point. You need your health, that's another topic altogether!

For what it's worth there is a balance in our house. We spend quite a bit of money per year and could tighten purse strings a great deal but we love a nice meal out now and then, we travel a fair amount (I think), we like nice wine and we don't want for decent clothes. I suspect our savings rate (excluding mortgage) is close to 30% now and I'd like to ramp it up to 40% within another few years (avoiding lifestyle inflation). Will we get there? Who knows. But we certainly pay ourselves first, we're frugal to a point but by no means do we count pennies.

Time spent + money spent = what you value in life.

Good on you to focus so much what you value, if it is financial future or otherwise.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> ...
> In our family of 5 kids, 4 of us were spenders and 1 sister was a saver. *She saved her candy, and then we all shared it later *


 .. sneaky and no denying in 'fessing up.


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## showmethemoney45 (Feb 27, 2015)

sags said:


> In our family of 5 kids, 4 of us were spenders and 1 sister was a saver. She saved her candy, and then we all shared it later



Thats what I'm also trying to avoid..when everyone else runs out of money they will come mooching for mine


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I don't have a problem with people that like to spend money (whether they have it or not). I have a problem with people who have amassed a fortune and cannot loosen up and enjoy spending it. We are not profligate by any means but we do enjoy splurging on a meal with a nice bottle of wine. So we have evolved to ask for separate checks with the careful people but I will often ask what their half amounted to and it usually is within a couple of dollars one way and the other. 

One of the differences is that we tip 18% for excellent service (20% if outstanding) and our frugal friends usually limit themselves to 15%. This difference is probably due to my son earning his way through college by working at The Keg.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

kcowan said:


> I don't have a problem with people that like to spend money (whether they have it or not). I have a problem with people who have amassed a fortune and cannot loosen up and enjoy spending it.


I can guarantee that everyone here is going to die at some point. 100% certainty.
As you mentioned, amassing a fortune is great, but you have to do something with it. You never know when some drunk or teenage/elderly/texting driver is going to tbone you in an intersection and that's it. People keep mentioning that they're saving up their money for 'financial independence'. But that's not a goal, that's a vehicle. What are you going to do with that independence? Those who say I want to give my kids a nice estate/inheritance are just procrastinating and pushing off that decision to their kids (who 9 times out of 10 would rather you would have spent that money with them and your grandkids rather than saving for your financial independence that you did nothing with).


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

I've never associated money with frugality or frugality with money ... being frugal is just a philosophy I've had for as long as I can remember. Guess I'm just not one for expensive things/experiences when simpler things/experiences will do. I tend to tip well (depending) because I have a lot of respect for people who get out and work, I've helped out others financially (given, not a loan) when they could use some help, I like my old jeep, my old boat, my old house ... and sure, having money in the bank 

On topic ... and as far as expressing this philosophy to others, I've had no problems ... probably because I'm not an ideologue about it.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

My Own Advisor said:


> @None,
> 
> That's a good chunk of cash "sitting".
> 
> ...



It was quite a bit but I eventually got it into index funds when the dollar was at par and the s&P was around 1700 so I caught a decent chunk of the bull tailend. Investing can be a bit intimidating at first but once you understand what you can control and what you can't it is quite liberating.

My balance is not terrible I don't think. I'm going to Hawaii in Decemeber for a bit for example and go out for lunch/dinner a couple times per week. The only issues I really have in the apartment i live in. It's quite modest - but that's what happens when you live by yourself (with an occasional kid). Anyway, once I shack up with someone the place I live in will be really nice if we are both willing to pay the same in rent. I pay $1300 a month for a 2 bedroom - If my new partner pays about the same you can get a pretty breathtaking place for $2600 a month (maybe even kick it down to 2K per month for bit more savings). Anyway, that's a bit of the basis for my rant about how 'couples' already benefit from joint finances and don't really need tax breaks. Anyway I digress.


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## youngdad3 (Jun 29, 2013)

If everyone would cut the cord on cable+landline and had a prepaid phone like we did I would not be getting my nice quarterly divvys from BCE and T.

And if everyone had a paid off house + no debt like me and my wife I would certainly not get my dividends from TD, NA, BMO, RY, CM and BNS.

so I tend not to go around and act like a frugality preacher unless someone genuinely ask me how I do it :biggrin:


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Well, there will always be people who overspend on cable, TV, wireless, etc. I think your dividends are safe 

As for banks, they make a crapload of money and they will be cutting jobs in the years ahead to continue to reward shareholders.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Personally, I've done it all. I was debt free, savings in the bank and mortgage paid off early in life. Then I got injured at work and couldn't work for several years. Had I continued to do the same old, same old, I'd have lost everything. Instead I turned my attention to investing, something I'd just started looking into.

Went through some very lean years, racking up credit card debt, constantly debating selling the investments early to get rid of the debt. The pro was I'd be out of debt, the con was I had no other way to generate income. Many sleepless nights.

Through it all, we cut many corners, but never compromised in certain areas (such as food quality). I certainly learned to be frugal as opposed to cheap.

Eventually, the investments started to pay off. I was so busy in survival mode that I missed it. Eventually I did notice that my credit cards were paid off, that I had some savings again, and that money was "there" when we needed it. Still, it took a while to relax and settle down a bit.

Today, I still have a sense of paranoia lurking in the background. Having lost it all once, you realize how quickly it could happen again, even though I have many different streams of passive income now. I'm still frugal about a lot of the luxuries in life,or things I don't need...we have a lot of "toys" or "junk", but I bought most of it well below retail. 

I've never been a person who has a lot of "wants". For most of my life, had I won the lottery, I doubt my lifestyle would have changed because I life the life I want to live, I buy the stuff I want to buy, and I have no desire for things like a Lamborghini.

There is no way you can talk to people about their lifestyle. People will do things their way period. Especially ones who aren't successful. As a landlord I see it all the time. People need a reason to change, they may think they want to change, but it usually takes an outside force to make them change. It's like any addiction.

Still, if people ask, I'll tell them my story, my strategies, even my system. Many people think I'm giving away the store, but the truth is I know 99.9% of them will never do anything with the information (it's rather depressing really). Of course, there is that one person out there who does listen...and that makes the effort worthwhile. 

I've raised my kids with my knowledge, hopefully they'll be better prepared than I was, but even if they aren't, they know how to think and overcome challenges. 

People are afraid to be "frugal" in our "live for the now" society. It's looked down upon (how many people ridicule show like "extreme couponning"?). To me, taking anything to the extreme is silly, but using it in moderation is probably smart. To me, a cost for effort calculation is done. If it costs more than I'd save, it's stupid to do just to be frugal, no driving across town to save 50 cents for example.

I guess to quote Mae West, "I've been rich and I've been poor... I like rich better", but that doesn't mean I'm not frugal, in part, to stay rich.

P.S. I should mention, I now regret living debt free in my earlier days. While it was nice at the time, had I used debt as a tool like I do now, I would never have been poor and I would have been significantly better off today. Of course, had you told me that back then, I probably wouldn't have believed it, I thought I'd reached the "ultimate".


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

When I initially i read the thread about why people are afraid of being frugal, my interpretation of frugal is paying the least to get the most for value. Most people I know even the ultra wealthy want to get the best value for their money. 

As I retread the initial post, and some of the there, I think we are talking about lifestyle choices. That is a different conversation altogether, that most will not be willing to have. I remember reading the book 'smart couples finish rich'. (There are different versions). I had always thought of my spouse and his family as impulsive and more of spendersand less financially responsible than me and less fugal. I then realized that we were all generally frugal, but what we equated would bring us happiness differed. For this reason, talking to someone about what they are spending on doesn't really work. They need to make the connections on how their choices are not enabling them to make their goals. This involves them understanding what their goals are and reevaluating their life. Definitely not conversations you can have with people unless you know them well, are open, and have that kind of relationship. No one wants to have some person point all of their misaligned choices. 

i believe I have a good sense of what brings value and enjoyment to my life. Money doesn't buy happiness but it does but choices. The harder question is knowing what to spend the money on. I am frugal when it comes to home cooking, but it bring me great satisfaction to know I can cook healthy meal, that taste good, and are inexpensive. It also gives me great pleasure in cooking expensive meals with rare ingredients. we also eat out, as we really enjoy food. However, what we choose to eat out on are general things that I can't make at home or are too time consuming. I can easily spend $100 a plate, and it will still bring enjoyment. We have veer high spending in our house, but it is always below are means, and we make sure there is no debt, there is savings, then our spending. Trying to get people to be more frugal is easy, trying to get people to change their spending is hard,


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

Save for retirement...........but live for today as well.

One thing money can't buy is more time.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

sags said:


> One thing money can't buy is more time.


That is an absolute & ultimate truth.


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## Moneytoo (Mar 26, 2014)

sags said:


> Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.
> 
> Save for retirement...........but live for today as well.
> 
> One thing money can't buy is more time.


Wow - did you start reading Garth: http://www.greaterfool.ca/2015/10/30/obedience-3 ? lol


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## youngdad3 (Jun 29, 2013)

Just a Guy said:


> P.S. I should mention, I now regret living debt free in my earlier days. While it was nice at the time, had I used debt as a tool like I do now, I would never have been poor and I would have been significantly better off today. Of course, had you told me that back then, I probably wouldn't have believed it, I thought I'd reached the "ultimate".


I see your point, but for me being debt free is more an emotional decision than a financial one. Since I've paid off my mortgage last march I feel soo more relaxed about having a steady steam of income than for the last 10 years (even though for the last 2-3 years I had more than enough liquid assets to cover the remaining of the loan). I am self employed so my take-home money moves like a rollercoaster from week to week but I don't really mind anymore, as long as I end up in a positive net gain at the end of the month which is becoming easier and easier to do. Also, I've finally pulled the trigger on working a fixed 4 days a week instead of the 6 days I used to do so I get to spend more time with the kids and on personal projects. :biggrin: So much more than just financial advantages really.

I know I might en up being richer if I used some leverage for my investments or to buy some rentals but I personally would not sleep well at night and I would probably end up working more to compensate and end up being less happy than I am right now..


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Moneytoo said:


> Wow - did you start reading Garth: http://www.greaterfool.ca/2015/10/30/obedience-3 ? lol


LOL.......I have been reading Garth for a long time, but I am also old.......and when you are old you think a lot more about time than money.


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## namelessone (Sep 28, 2012)

We can't change people but we can influence them gradually. It's like a car's momentum. A car can't suddenly stop and turn around in an instant. It takes time. 

Most people believe happiness comes from owning more stuffs and that stuffs can solve all our problems. That's a false belief put into people's brain by the medias, e.g. advertising. US citizens owns more stuff and bigger houses, bigger cars with smaller families but they are not happier than people 50 years ago. In fact, people are less happy.

If we say we are trying to be frugal, people interpret that as: we are starving ourselves. This is far from the truth. The fact is: in developed worlds, stuffs far exceed people's actual needs. For example, I have 4 heating coils on my stove and I only use 1. I never used the other 3 coils. For more information, read about: minimalism. 
Typical example: 
Without me and my dad saying yes we want them, my sister keeps bringing in stuffs from her house to put into my house for my elderly dad. She believes stuffs are the solution for all problems without consideration for needs. 
She brought in a commode which my dad never used. He prefers and capable to use real toilet. She brought in a bicycle for my parents to ride but my parents are too old and not want to use it. The bicycle is sitting in my basement collecting dust and occupying precious space. I bought a stationary exercise bike and put beside dad's bed. He uses it daily and it improves his health. That's need. Once she wanted to bring in a hospital bed. My dad strongly refused. For 3 reasons: 1. My dad doesn't need it. 2. The room doesn't have enough space. 3. Regular bed is more natural and comfortable. Who wants to live in a room that looks like a hospital if not necessary?For most stuffs she brought , my dad doesn't need them. They became clutters in my house. Only one thing was put to used for my dad: a raised toilet seat. Trying to be nice, I did not ask her to take them back. One day, I'll throw them in garbage or give away.


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