# Budget 2010 Any Ideas



## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Let us help the government with our own budget ideas and maybe the Canadian Money forum can forward this to Ottawa. If you are like me then you are not comfortable with all these deficits and the idiotic opposition parties with no good ideas and only criticism to add then maybe it is our turn to help out.


Stimulus: 
On stimulus I believe it should only go to help increase our productivity down the road and not used to just prop up a failing company or whatever. Incentives should be given to people who raise productivity in their workplace and also any ideas that cut waste and help the environment in their company. 

Tax breaks or greater write offs should be given to companies that purchase equipment that helps their company reduce energy needs and also save the company money at the same time. Equipment that doesn't do anything to help in this way should not get any breaks in taxes or write downs. 

Health Care:
Here we should give incentives to any employees down to the janitor who come up with ideas to cut bureaucracy save money and cut waste. We should also empower those people to take more responsibility and get rid of as many managers and useless people as we possibly can and in return adding more to the money they could possibly earn.

I am not sure how things can get done but instead of just cutting workers and not getting the work done why not use them as a greater assets. In turn their productivity will increase their earnings helping the economy and also saving the government money.

Crime:
I suggest any drug user caught doing crime to support their habit should be forced into mandatory withdrawal. They will not go to a normal jail but instead will go through withdrawal and then be better educated and helped get back into the community.

We should also set up places where we can tax prostitution and provide better health care for them. Of course before entering such places there should be education and such to help these people get out of this business.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I have long advocated charging any politician lying in their campaign promises be charged with fraud. 

The punishment for this kind of fraud would be using laser hair removal to remove their hair and tattooing LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE on their skull.

It has gotten the point that there is no way to judge what the hell anyone is going to do in office because the minute they get voted in they immediately turn their office into a dictatorship until the next election. Then they work really hard making new lies so they get elected again. 

You don't even know who to vote for because it's all fabrication. 

Put that on your poll


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## Dr_V (Oct 27, 2009)

dogcom said:


> the idiotic opposition parties with no good ideas and only criticism to add


Kind of a one-sided political view, ain't it?

Not sure how we can have meaningful discussion about politics like that. Prolly best to stay away from that topic.

K.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Sorry Dr V I am not pushing for any of the parties including the Conservatives. I am disappointed in the opposition parties because they say idiotic things like we need stimulus now. Then later on say the debt they pushed onto the government because of a minority situation is all the fault of the government because they are not in power. 

Anyway the government has asked for ideas from Canadians to help with the budget and debt problems so any ideas.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

dogcom said:


> Let us help the government with our own budget ideas and maybe the Canadian Money forum can forward this to Ottawa. If you are like me then you are not comfortable with all these deficits and the idiotic opposition parties with no good ideas and only criticism to add then maybe it is our turn to help out.


Since you asked  following are my ideas:
#1 : Give incentives (taxes, grants, etc.) to companies that actively encourage, implement and measure tele-commuting/work-from-home for permanent, FT employees.
Benefits are innumerable - energy savings, less traffic/pollution, lower stress levels, better work/life balance, higher productivity, etc.
The technology and infrastructure is there - all that is needed is a change in mindset, attitude and a kick in the butt (via incentives)

#2 : One, common harmonized standard sales tax mechanism across the country mandatory for all provinces.
No more HST, QST, GST, PST, SST bullsth.
All provinces and territories to have one single sales tax.
Rates can obviously vary from province to province, but maximum tax rate to be capped at 10%.
If a province needs to charge more than 10% of the value of a particular good or service as tax, there is either something wrong with the economy/budgeting of that province or something wrong with that product.

#3 : Provide incentives and tax credit for single-income families where one spouse chooses to stay home and care for their younger children.
Right now, such families are at a huge disadvantage from the tax perspective.
Raising of children (esp. pre-schoolers) by their parents should be encouraged and not discouraged the way it is.

#4 : Increase funding of day care centers and improve regulation of day care, nanny and babysitting services.
Well regular and well funded child care system is absolutely essential, regardless of point #3 above.

#5 : Make additional, voluntary contributions into CPP as optional - we had a discussion thread on this topic a couple of weeks ago.
I think this is a great idea and will work very well for those who don't have gold-plated, defined benefit pension plans.

#6 : Tighten the tax net around "self-employed" and "registered home business" owners who are claiming all sorts of personal expenses as business expenses and are essentially free-loaders.
I know, this is easier said than done, but there is a huge leakage of tax revenues as a result of this.

#7 : Reduce income taxes and increase luxury goods consumption taxes, such as consumer electronics, sports events, concerts, entertainement events, etc.

#8 : Increase interest rates. Period.

#9 : Massive investment into cutting edge, rapid, effective public transit systems.
Our public transit system is decades old and puts us to shame.
Some third-world countries have better public transit systems than us.
And I'm not talking about adding a few new trains or a few new buses.
I'm talking about (for example), high speed, commuter trains that go from Waterloo (ON) to Toronto downtown in 1 hr. (express), from London, ON to Ottawa in 4 hrs. (express).
The USSR had this kind of system like 30 years ago.
Japan's had it for decades.
Europe is way ahead in this game, and now China is catching up.

#10 : More investment and incentives in development of less populated, remote areas in the mid-west and northern reaches of Ontario and beyond.
Settlement initiatives to distribute the population to less developed areas.

My $0.02.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

A prettty good list Harold, but a few problems with it.

_#1 : Give incentives (taxes, grants, etc.) to companies that actively encourage, implement and measure tele-commuting/work-from-home for permanent, FT employees. ... etc_
Sounds good in theory, but every time the federal government gets into micromanaging economy with grants & incentives it becomes either a bureaucratic boondoggle or outright fraud.

_#2 : One, common harmonized standard sales tax mechanism across the country mandatory for all provinces._
Agree in principle, and it should be built into retail prices so the price on the tag is what you pay at the cash. (We have this commitment to making the GST/HST "visible" for political reasons - the Europeans think we're nuts. And we could get rid of the penny as side benefit.) I'm not sure your cap of 10% is practicable, and certainly woudln't be agreed to by any province. GST is 5%, so provinces with 6-8% PST would have to cut their revenue, which won't fly in present times.

_#3 : Provide incentives and tax credit for single-income families where one spouse chooses to stay home and care for their younger children._

Agree wholeheartedly. Income tax reform is needed to address demand-side management for day care.

_#4 : Increase funding of day care centers and improve regulation of day care, nanny and babysitting services._

This is supply-side management, which is provincial responsibility, and tehrefore not part of federal budget. But I agree, except the goal should not be universal day care. First we make it affordable for more families to raise their own children; then we provide support for those who still can't afford it. Day care should be addressed on the basis of need, not want.

_#5 : Make additional, voluntary contributions into CPP as optional - we had a discussion thread on this topic a couple of weeks ago._

Agree, but it won't solve the problem of people who aren't saving enough for retirement now unless it is eventually made mandatory.

_#6 : Tighten the tax net around "self-employed" and "registered home business" owners who are claiming all sorts of personal expenses as business expenses and are essentially free-loaders._

Agree, not to mention undeclared revenue from all those people who are willing to offer you a big discount for paying cash.

#7 : Reduce income taxes and increase luxury goods consumption taxes, such as consumer electronics, sports events, concerts, entertainement events, etc.

Agree with reducing income taxes and increasing consumption taxes. But trying to single out "luxury goods" was tried in the distant past, and replaced with taxes like GST & PST. It is hellish to administer and encourages black markets in luxury goods. (and good luck trying to get anyone to agree on a definiton of luxury goods.)

_#8 : Increase interest rates. Period._

This has so many economic implications I don't think i can comment. It may be a nice wish for investors, but affects cost of so many other things, be careful what you wish for. In any case interest rates are not set by budget speeches.

_#9 : Massive investment into cutting edge, rapid, effective public transit systems._

I agree in principle (The devil will be in the details)

_#10 : More investment and incentives in development of less populated, remote areas in the mid-west and northern reaches of Ontario and beyond.
Settlement initiatives to distribute the population to less developed areas._

I thought the rapid transit was a pipe dream until I read this one. Not that I disagree with the objective. Paving over southern Ontario for an ever-expanding GTA is so wrong in so many ways. But how to achieve it in our "free" society? In a small way sky-rocketing real estate prices in Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, are leading many retirees to do this voluntarily. But there doesn't seem to be any government policy to facilitate it (Can you imagine an MPP running on a platform of "Vote for Me - I will see that you have to move out of your home town, away from all your family and friends"? And the GTA controls so many votes, they aren't going to elect anyone who promises to limit its growth. In any case, really a provincial responsibilty.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> #1 : Give incentives (taxes, grants, etc.) to companies that actively encourage, implement and measure tele-commuting/work-from-home for permanent, FT employees.


They don't need incentives: this is something that makes good business sense on its own. The more people who work out of their homes, the less office space you have to pay for. More and more of my colleagues are becoming full-time telecommuters, and my company's considering downsizing a few of its offices to move into smaller spaces with lower rent. There are a lot of empty offices and cubicles on the floors they're renting now.

I've been a full-time telecommuter since 1994; I don't think I could ever work in an office again although sometimes I do miss having other people around.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

OhGreatGuru said:


> Sounds good in theory, but every time the federal government gets into micromanaging economy with grants & incentives it becomes either a bureaucratic boondoggle or outright fraud.


Maybe, but it is worth trying.
The cost we as a society are paying for this anachronistic and feudal practice that the entire productive population commuting on average 2 - 4 hrs. every day to get to a place of work is simply mind boggling.
If ever aliens were to visit us, they would say _these people are nuts_.
Not easy of course, but it will be possible to implement.
The technology and infrastructre is there and a lot of professions and job positions these days lends itself well to tele-commuting.
Presently, it is only small, isolated companies that allow this out of the goodness of their hearts - we need more widespread acceptance, and fast.


> I'm not sure your cap of 10% is practicable, and certainly woudln't be agreed to by any province. GST is 5%, so provinces with 6-8% PST would have to cut their revenue, which won't fly in present times.


Agreed, and yet the present times are the precise reason why we need fiscal responsibility.
The recent tax grab by the Ontario provincial govt. is exactly what we need to avoid - surreptitiously increasing taxes and cost of living for everyone.
The idea that a good or service should be taxed more than 10% of its value is just wrong.


> This is supply-side management, which is provincial responsibility, and tehrefore not part of federal budget. But I agree, except the goal should not be universal day care. First we make it affordable for more families to raise their own children; then we provide support for those who still can't afford it. Day care should be addressed on the basis of need, not want.


Without a doubt.
I didn't mean to imply that day care funding should be with the intent of sending everyone to work.
Quite the opposite in fact.


> Agree, but it won't solve the problem of people who aren't saving enough for retirement now unless it is eventually made mandatory.


No, it won't solve that problem.
The only "solution" to that problem is a Soviet-style society where there is no concept of personal savings.
I would never intent for such a thing to be mandatory - purely voluntary.


> This has so many economic implications I don't think i can comment. It may be a nice wish for investors, but affects cost of so many other things, be careful what you wish for. In any case interest rates are not set by budget speeches.


True, I mean this more as a policy direction not just this budget speech.
But we do need to reel in the real estate bubble and control the stealthy inflation in essential goods and services.


> I thought the rapid transit was a pipe dream until I read this one. Not that I disagree with the objective. Paving over southern Ontario for an ever-expanding GTA is so wrong in so many ways. But how to achieve it in our "free" society? In a small way sky-rocketing real estate prices in Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, are leading many retirees to do this voluntarily. But there doesn't seem to be any government policy to facilitate it (Can you imagine an MPP running on a platform of "Vote for Me - I will see that you have to move out of your home town, away from all your family and friends"? And the GTA controls so many votes, they aren't going to elect anyone who promises to limit its growth. In any case, really a provincial responsibilty.


True, but in a modern society, we need high speed transit systems.
VIA Rail has a place but it is not a transit system.
Between the encouragement of tele-commuting as a regular practice and the building of high-speed transit systems, we can begin to address the issues of pollution, congestion, road rage accidents, high stress levels, energy consumption, etc.

Thanks for your critique actually, really appreciated.
I accept your points respectfully.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Haroldcrump I agree with the rapid transit ideas you have and we should start to build that as part of the stimulus plans.

On interest rates I think it is best to stop things by requiring people have like 20 percent down to buy a house or not allow 30 or 35 year mortgages. Also I think when the economy starts to overheat later in a bull market why not raise taxes a lot to destroy things instead of using interest rates to kill the economy leading to a recession. This way the extra money can go to paying down debt instead of paying more to bond holders.


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## furgy (Apr 20, 2009)

> #6 : Tighten the tax net around "self-employed" and "registered home business" owners who are claiming all sorts of personal expenses as business expenses and are essentially free-loaders.
> 
> Agree, not to mention undeclared revenue from all those people who are willing to offer you a big discount for paying cash.


They're already doing it , just unsuccessfully , it's easier to get taxes out of the average "working clones" , which I assume you are.

Don't be jealous because we self-employed decided to do it our own way , and beat an already corrupt system , have you seen government and corporate allowable expenses , ours are a drop in the ocean when compared.

Know thy real enemy , we give up a lot in the quest to control our own finances and keep a little more of "our own" money , our government manipulates the working clone to think this way in order to help them achieve their goals , divide and conquer , (call the CRA tip line on those bastards!!).

If you want to work for someone else and have them take control of your finances and make "deductions" they see fit , as well a reaping the benefits of employer contributions , EI , company medical and dental , etc., then fine , but don,t whine about it and call the rest of us "freeloaders".


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

furgy said:


> ... it's easier to get taxes out of the average "working clones" , which I assume you are.
> 
> Don't be jealous because we self-employed decided to do it our own way , and beat an already corrupt system , have you seen government and corporate allowable expenses , ours are a drop in the ocean when compared.
> .


Maybe it is secret jealousy. But arguing that it is OK for you to cheat the rest of us taxpayers because of a few corrupt people at the top doesn't fly with me. The amount of money any one individual is hiding may be small, but in aggregate the underground economy is large.


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## furgy (Apr 20, 2009)

> Maybe it is secret jealousy.


No maybe about it.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

We need to legalize, illegal drugs. It is a colosal waste of time and money fighting this losing battle. Take that money and put it into education and rehab. I mean, they can legalize heroin tommorrow and I am not going to start using it. For the people that do, lets keep them from mugging someone on the street or selling their bodies.

Which brings me to my next one.

We need to legalize prostitution. After 50,000 years of fighting this, I think the battle is lost. Men want women, women want men's money and I doubt a new law or jail is going to change that anytime soon. Regulate it, tax it and get it off the streets and into the bedrooms where it belongs.

We need to lower the minimum wage. Everytime they raise the minimum wage they put, not only a whack of people at that level, out of work, as these jobs are sent overseas, but they put all the skilled labour, who supervised, managed and engineered those jobs, out of work as well. We can't keep our economy going, by sending all our jobs overseas and lets face it, I have met enough stupid people in our country that are just not worth $10an hour. I am sorry, but that's the way it is.

They need to cut all extracurricular items like sports, out of our education system, above and beyond Phys ed. Too many kids get their self-esteem from sports as opposed to achedemic achievement and hence never achieve much achedemically. Sports has no place within our education system and has probably little place in our society as a whole.

We need to make bankruptcy laws more stringent. This pay a few bucks, say your sorry (oh thats right, they don't have to say that) and get out of debt free system we have is rediculous. 

We need to increase the tax on gasoline by at least a $1 per litre. Only by price can we reduce our dependancy on this resource. We can use this revenue to provide subsidies for more non-renewable resources.

I've got more, but lets take a vote now. All who want to vote for me, say aye ! Maybe that lack of noise is why these measures never seem to get implemented.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I whole-heartedly agree with all of OptsyEagle's recommendations - awesome list!
However, I'll quality this last point (extra $1/litre gas tax) if and only if my point#9 is implemented i.e. massive and significant improvement in public transit.
A significant chunk of modern-day professionals livelihood depends on the automobile, esp. contractors, consultants, freelance professionals etc.
Give me the incentive to tele-commute, give me public transit when I do need it and I'll stop using the automobile for daily driving.
Heck, I'll even pay the local, provincial, federal govt. cost + profit on their investments in public transit I don't need subsidized transit.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

That was a lot of fun, so maybe I will go on.

We need to shut down all public colleges and universities. This service is much better provided privately. Compare an individuals abilities who take one of those intensive 6 month computer courses offerred by private education companies versus a person who takes a two year course at a community college and you will see my point. I will bet the teacher in the private school doesn't have 2 months off in the summer and an ironclad indexed defined benefit pension plan, either. Take the savings here and subsidize those private offerings. 

Get rid of the catholic school board. Religion and government have nothing to do with each other. If people want their children in a religious school, they can pay for it themselves. On that point, it wouldn't hurt to take the savings here and start an ad campaign, educating people on the fact that there is no god. We have done a good job breaking the myth of the easter bunny, the tooth fairy and santa claus, but this god thing really seems to stick. OK people, I may wreck your day, but do you know what happens when you die. Nothing, you are dead. You decompose. That's it. There is no sole. You are not punished for being bad, you are not rewarded for being good ... you are dead. Once humanity embraces this I think we might be able to start on world peace, but there are still a few more things to tackle for this.

Forget rehabilitation. Forget even punishment. Jails are simply to take bad people who have proven that they cannot co-exist with good people, and get them out of good people's lives. So, we take them out of our society and we lock them up. That is the only purpose of jails. With this in mind, we should lock them up longer and take away most of their ameneties, for cost savings. I am not concerned about their well being or whether they rehabilitate or not. I never needed to rehabilitate so why should they. Get them out of my life. That is what jails are for. You can hug them all you want, it won't matter.

Shut down all public libraries. What a waste of money. They are nothing but a copyright infringement on authors for the few people who are too cheap to buy a book, newspaper or internet hook up. Most of this stuff can be obtained for free on the internet and one can use an internet cafe if they don't have a hook up.

I guess that enough for now. Nice campaign platform though, don't you think?


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

OptsyEagle said:


> That was a lot of fun, so maybe I will go on.


Um...now it's getting a bit extreme and over the top.
Knowing you, I would assume this wasn't trolling and you actually believe it.


> We need to shut down all public colleges and universities. This service is much better provided privately. Compare an individuals abilities who take one of those intensive 6 month computer courses offerred by private education companies versus a person who takes a two year course at a community college and you will see my point. I will bet the teacher in the private school doesn't have 2 months off in the summer and an ironclad indexed defined benefit pension plan, either. Take the savings here and subsidize those private offerings.


While I agree with parts of this plan, I think it'll be too extreme to shut down all public-funded educational institutions. 


> Get rid of the catholic school board. Religion and government have nothing to do with each other. If people want their children in a religious school, they can pay for it themselves.


This I totally agree with and would vote for.


> Shut down all public libraries. What a waste of money. They are nothing but a copyright infringement on authors for the few people who are too cheap to buy a book, newspaper or internet hook up.


I'll beg to totally disagree with this.


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

I would cut jail expenses by providing the absolute minimum as required by the Geneva convention. 

I would eliminate welfare. If you don't work you don't eat (disabled and elderly excluded). 

I would turn off the money tap to Indians. Enough is enough. 

Don't close my library.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

furgy said:


> call the rest of us "freeloaders".


Why? Are you one?
If you aren't, why should you take offense?
It is in your interest, as well, to plug such loopholes.
But if you are, then you obviously know what I mean....


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## furgy (Apr 20, 2009)

Whatever Harold , just quit whining about it.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Why? Are you one?

No I am making a trade off, you get many many benefits that you pay for I don't
I get to pay taxes on my OWN hard earned money after I deduct my ALLOWABLE expenses while you get to prepay them. Is that my fault what about the makes me a freeloader? If you telecommute from home doesn't your company claim the deductions or at least what they reimburse your for? Are you a freeloader? 

If you aren't, why should you take offense?

Because it sounds Harold like you are making a rather sweeping statement about the business people who work from home. That if the do their taxes in the proper way they are taking advantage and I can assure you that's not true. 

It is in your interest, as well, to plug such loopholes.

Why is it in my interest to pay more tax. I think it is in your interest to pay more tax so this year when you complete your return there is a box where you can donate money to the Opportunities Fund I think YOU should check that off and send them say an extra thousand or two.


But if you are, then you obviously know what I mean.... 

If we are going to reform tax law lets start with the companies that really don't pay their fair share. The large corporations.... they pay less marginal tax rate then the guy who asks you what you would like in your coffee at Timmys. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu5B-2LoC4s

Here's Warren Buffet talking about it.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Very interesting discussion here and I am one of those people who believe in God and Jesus just for the record. It is also interesting how people on the left or right cannot think ahead to how their policies will affect a country or society.

I agree with many of the points opsteagle makes but you have to give everyone in society a chance to make it. Simply ignoring people who are not smart enough and find a place that they can contribute to society will turn them into enemies of the state. Also people born to rich families will have an extreme advantage over people born to poor families even if those people were a lot smarter then the rich ones. In the end you would end up with a have and have not society with smart greedy people running things taking all the money we saved in future budgets for themselves and leave us no better off. In fact we would need very large jails and it would be a very scary country to live in. Also sports are very important to many in school and helps them throughout their life, but I also agree that not everyone should be forced into sports. 

If you ask me where society here has gone wrong is by not letting people or companies fail. I was an *** in grade 2 and failed that grade because of fighting and not paying attention in class. In the end it was the best thing that ever happened to me and made me focus more in school.

If you remove religion then you would have people worship money or something else that they can destroy each other over. So in other words world peace is impossible.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Bean38 made a good point in fixing indian affairs. The money doesn't go where it should and we waste billions helping no one.

On taxes it should be made simple and be filed on two pages.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

hey optsy, fairbanks AL has the gal for you, maybe you could move there & build the new frontier.

brothels, crack, coke, heroin, guns, no minimum wage, no welfare, no schools, no jobs not even a library. U & sarah.


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## osc (Oct 17, 2009)

For the record, I don't believe in Easter Bunny, Santa Claus or Jesus Christ. I think all religious activity should be properly taxed like all other businesses.
We should legalize and tax prostitution and marijuana. 
We should get rid of the Senate and the Governor. We should become an independent Parliamentary Republic.
We should spend less on military and more on science and education. I am against private education. Education should be public and free for all.
I am for fixing the health care system by adopting the system they have in UK or France (real public health care, with doctors paid reasonable wages by the government). 
I am for raising taxes for large corporations and lowering them for small businesses.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Berubeland said:


> Because it sounds Harold like you are making a rather sweeping statement about the business people who work from home.


I wonder why you would read it that way if you are all clear and above board.
Sounds to me like _you_ are the one making sweeping generalizations.
If you are a legitimate home business with legitimate expenses and legitimate revenue, cheers to you.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

-- edited --


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

osc said:


> For the record, I don't believe in Easter Bunny, Santa Claus or Jesus Christ. I think all religious activity should be properly taxed like all other businesses.
> We should legalize and tax prostitution and marijuana.
> We should get rid of the Senate and the Governor. We should become an independent Parliamentary Republic.
> We should spend less on military and more on science and education. I am against private education. Education should be public and free for all.
> ...


I was going to post my own reply to this fun thread, but osc sums it up for me too.

Except for....

I am also one the + side for getting rid of the dual school system and just having one public school system that has nothing to do with religion. Teaching about honesty, ethics, fairness, and understanding has nothing to do with religion and should be taught. If you do believe in a religion X, then that is great and you should go to church or whatever your specific religion says you should do, but one religion should not get special treatment and be funded by public money.

Someone saying that without religion the world would fall into chaos is ridiculous IMO; people acting in the name of a religion is responsible for many of the worlds cruelness and issues, past and present.

I 'worship' science and its evolution and constant continued learning. I teach honesty, ethics, fairness, and understanding to my kids without the need to believe there is some higher power. 

Peace.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Even though I believe in God I agree religion has no place in schools or politics.

On the chaos and war thing I am afraid all will happen whether you have religion or not. In some cases religion has helped society stay on course and in others it has been exploited and used to create chaos and wars. 

Criminals or meddling governments into the affairs of other countries as well as their own will always try to gain power or recourses regardless of religion. This also does lead to the budget as you need all inputs when putting together a good budget. People always try to say that politics has nothing to do with money discussions but we all know it has a lot to do with it. 

Do you know which areas cost the most and need the most attention. I would say health care and Indian affairs would be the best place to look for efficiencies and money savings.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Listen people, if you want to get government size down to a more manageable level, you need to cut government services. This works best for government services that are a complete waste of money (ie: fighting illegal drugs and prostitution) or where private industry can do as good or better job (ie: post secondary education). When was the last time you saw an ad on TV promoting a course in history or literature or basic arts. You don't because the cost is too high for the return the student would receive (since the economic value of these courses is minimal), but our post secondary school graduate young kids in droves from these courses.

OK, we can keep the churches, just as long as the people who don't live in this fantasy world (my opinion only) don't have to pay for it or be exposed to it. I doubt the abolishment of religion would keep us from killing each other anyways, and for some, perhaps it may event reduce its occurrance (if I recall, it is supposed to me a sin, is it not?).

But from my "extreme" suggestions, I think we can all see how difficult it is for a politician to balance and even shrink the budgets. We are so diverse in our opinions, and very slow to change them, it is amazing most democratic countries have not gone broke, long ago.


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## furgy (Apr 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted by Berubeland
> Because it sounds Harold like you are making a rather sweeping statement about the business people who work from home.


Yes , he was , but again , it is probably just jealousy that some of us have so much more control over our lives than others.
The only way change ever comes about in this world is thru violence or commerce , by keeping as much of my money as possible from being squandered by a government with questionable policies , I am bringing about change by making sure my money is used where I feel it is needed.
Almost everyone in this country complains about government excesses and waste , but very few of us do anything about it.
When we do , and happen to benefit from it as well , the rest get jealous and all of the sudden are are on the side of that same government.




> I wonder why you would read it that way if you are all clear and above board.


So if you were to post , voicing some other ridiculous bias , say like maybe you didn't like people of a certain race or religion , then any who questioned you , would in your opinion , have to be someone of that race or religion , and not just someone who believes in equality for all ?

I see your next post was edited out , I can only imagine what gems of wisdom it contained.

Tip: Don't post on public forums while drinking , then they won't have to be edited out later.
I can make that assumption using your own logic.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

LOL @ Furgy 

Is it terrible that the post I am most intensely curious about is the one that's edited out?


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Berubeland said:


> Is it terrible that the post I am most intensely curious about is the one that's edited out?


I guess we shall always wonder about that, wouldn't we 

If you re-read the statement, I clearly say that folks who are claiming all sorts of personal expenses as legitimate business expenses.
Both of us know that this happens and how common it is, is a matter of personal opinion and experience.

I am honestly still not clear why either of you would read my post as saying that all self-employed folks are freeloaders.
And to extend that statement to race, religion, equality, drinking, etc. is just trolling.


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## furgy (Apr 20, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> And to extend that statement to race, religion, equality, drinking, etc. is just trolling.


I wonder why you would see it that way unless you yourself were trolling ?


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Opstyeagle if your extreme ideas are meant to show people what could happen if you don't get our house together then I agree with that. This is the kind of debate we need to show people that we need to do the easy things and fix the problems now before we are forced to do the extreme things later.

I also think we should have a budget system that doesn't allow the left or the right to come up with extreme policies without some sort of huge vote like 75 percent of parliament passing it. If a government proposes huge spending increases that go over some set of parameters of a budget then they would not be able to proceed without passing it through a much tougher vote then a simple majority. 

I also think any taxes like a carbon tax or the GST meant to pay the deficit should have to be used for the purpose that it was brought in for. A government should not be allowed to just put it into general revenue.

On the self employed thing if you want to make illegitimate claims, then you run the risk of getting caught and that is your problem. I think most self employed people are honest people. I think if you want more revenue, then tell all people afraid of getting caught on taxes, but want a way out, then give them a window to claim it. This means saying if you claim revenue by such a date then you will not be prosecuted and can come clean.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

furgy said:


> I wonder why you would see it that way unless you yourself were trolling ?


I think it is pretty clear whether I troll on this forum or not (and on others).
You should visit more often.
It's nice here.


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## furgy (Apr 20, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> I think it is pretty clear whether I troll on this forum or not (and on others).


Why? Are you?
If you aren't, why should you take offense?.
But if you are, then you obviously know what I mean....

(Who else said that?)



> You should visit more often.
> It's nice here.


Yes it is nice , so relax and enjoy.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

dogcom said:


> I think most self employed people are honest people. I think if you want more revenue, then tell all people afraid of getting caught on taxes, but want a way out, then give them a window to claim it. This means saying if you claim revenue by such a date then you will not be prosecuted and can come clean.


I agree with this, and would say I think most people in general are honest people. 

As people, we all want to keep as much of what we earn as we can. Honest people do it by learning about the tax laws that exist and use the parts that they can to their advantage when possible without making false claims or breaking the law.

Now someone may disagree with a law that is in place because of their ethics (i.e. they think the law is unfair), but that just shows that the laws we have (which are supposed to be standards and applied to everyone) can be different than what someone thinks is right or fair (which varies greatly depending on the person and their situation).

If you do not agree with a law, then try and fight to have it changed. 

For example, I think the law that RRSP is capped at 2x K regardless of income is not fair (I think the cap should be eliminated or way higher). Why, because it means if someone makes say a million dollars in 2 years and then makes nothing for 8 because the business they work for tanks, vs someone making the same amount spread over 10 years (i.e. 100K / year); the amount that the latter person can save in RRSP sheltered savings is much more than the former. Why? Not only has the former person paid more in income tax, but they have also been forced to save less inside an RRSP. 

Again, why? Both people have made the same about in a 10 year period, but just because of how it was paid out over the 10 years their is a huge difference in tax and RRSP contribution limits. This is the law, is it right? Of course depending on which situation you are in will greatly effect your opinion on this law.

Some people get around this by being able to setup a corp and funnel $ into it instead of having the $ paid to themselves directly, and then leave the money in corp and pay themselves over several years smaller amounts. As far as I know this is legal. But is it fair to allow someone to do this trick because their situation allows it, while high paid regular employees cannot? Again, I say no, but again my opinion would likely completely depend on what boat I was in.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

Here is my dream system of government -- I realize that it will never happen.

I would like to see some free enterprise thinking injected right into the system of government itself. Our entire economy is fueled by capitalistic premises, why shouldn't government? I would propose that we set out a system of targets to be achieved and each and every government member be paid a substantial bonus, based on how an independent body rates the accomplishment of each target. I'm talking huge bonuses -- the potential for members to become multimillionaires, provided they significantly improve Canada's economy and living standards. Every member of parliament, opposition and governing parties, would receive the bonuses -- this would encourage them to work towards the same initiatives and not showboat against something that would be for the betterment of the country. 

Here would be my suggested targets:

- balanced budget
- reduction of the overall debt
- reduction in real unemployment figures
- reduction in real poverty (not poverty defined as some percentage of average income).
- increase in the quality of health care as defined by certain measurable targets
- satisfaction with our performance on foreign policy (would have to find a way to measure this).
- measurable improvements to pollution

That would be a good start. I would say that they must perform to a certain standard (probably defined as significantly outperforming most other developed countries) in each and every area to be eligible for bonuses, so that parliamentarians wouldn't reach one target by trashing another (for example, decrease employment by raising the deficit). The rate of the bonus itself would be based on the degree to which we outperform the majority of developed countries.

Expensive? Considering what we pay the CEOs of large corporations to reach much less lofty objectives and considering the impact on Canada if such targets were achieved, I think it would be a bargain.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I just want to point out that these tax advantages available to self employed business people are the exact same advantages available to all businesses. The main difference is that in the case of larger businesses their accountants know more what the heck they are doing. 

The last place I used to work the working stiff with the biggest office was the head accountant. Not only that they used to fly him all over the place to conferences to learn about the annual changes to the tax laws and to educate and update him about the last and best loopholes. This guy's only purpose in that office was to learn about taxes and how not to pay them. So basically what I am saying is that the tax avoidance that goes on at the corporate level is extremely serious. Furthermore they were never concerned about being audited like we all are because they had this guy who was prepared to push the envelope and defend it should CRA come calling. From what I know of these people they would be perfectly content to try to claim all kinds of stuff then pay the money back later if they were audited. For them it was a calculated risk.


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

dogcom said:


> Bean38 made a good point in fixing indian affairs. The money doesn't go where it should and we waste billions helping no one.
> 
> On taxes it should be made simple and be filed on two pages.



I am not talking about fixing it. Although "chiefs" making 300K tax free and STILL expecting us to fly their "sick" kids for medical treatment is crazy.
The whole indian affairs dept probably spends alot of cash just to sustain itself rather than give money where it is needed.

I was trying to say turn the tap off completely and let these people become self sufficient and start paying taxes.

It seems we throw an awfull lot of cash at them, and give them all sorts of freebies, and discriminatory preference for jobs, and nothing seems to work.

WHat is the solution?


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## furgy (Apr 20, 2009)

bean438 said:


> I am not talking about fixing it. Although "chiefs" making 300K tax free and STILL expecting us to fly their "sick" kids for medical treatment is crazy.
> The whole indian affairs dept probably spends alot of cash just to sustain itself rather than give money where it is needed.
> 
> I was trying to say turn the tap off completely and let these people become self sufficient and start paying taxes.
> ...


That's a perfect example of the point I was getting at , change comes only thru action , usually thru the use of violence or commerce.

Indian nations are really smaller versions of our own governments , the money goes to the people at the top who squander it and screw their own people over , and then claim they need more.

It is much easier for our government to take from you and me and give it to them and keep them happy and quiet , because they complain more , block roads , use violence and refuse to pay taxes outright.

When you say "nothing seems to work" , you are obviously speaking from the taxpayers perspective , when seen from the recieving side , it's working very well , their getting exactly what they want and they don't care about you.

"nothing seems to work" would infer that "everything" has been tried , have you tried withholding your taxes , most working stiffs can't , they're taking them at the source , have you tried violence , blockading a road , etc. , etc. , no , most are conditioned to think that is the wrong way to get what you want.

Yet it is proven again and again , by our own aboriginals , it is precisely the way to get things done.

That's what got me stirred up at Harolds post , that he is conditioned to feel that anyone not doing as they're commanded must be a freeloader , and extra measures should be put in place to ensure that everyone follows commands like he does , right or wrong , the general population is conditioned to think that way.

Just how are going to change that , by writing letters , signing petitions , angry emails?

None of these will bring change , now I know some will say your vote is one way of bringing change , but you know as well as I , any elected party will take the same route and there is little you can do to change that.

So the solution to keeping someone from squandering your money , is not to give it to them in the first place , as long as people are willing to hand over whatever is demanded , things will remain the same , you are nothing but a source of revenue in the big picture.

If my government wants money from me , they will have to prove they can use it wisely , and if not they will have to fight me tooth and nail for it , and they do.

The lamb sees the sheepherder as his guardian and the wolf as his enemy , the wolf lives on his own terms taking only what he needs , and when being led to the slaughterhouse , only then is it clear that the sheepherder was the greater and more cunning enemy all along.


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

I would love to withhold my taxes but I think we all know what the end result would be.

If I rounded up a bunch of friends and blockaded a highway, or railway, unlike the indians, we would be arrested on the spot and possibly charged with an act of terrorism.

I agree that letters do nothing. I have written a few to my MP and all i got was a standard "thank you for your nice letter, blah, blah, blah" response.

There really is nothing we can do. If we speak up we are labelled as radical or racist. The only thing we can do is "withhold" taxes as much as possible, LEGALY i.e RSP, investment loan, etc.

I do have one idea for the budget. Instead of a lame home reno tax credit what about making home reno's fully tax deductible? This way there is a real incentive to get things done, people are put to work, and this could possibly reduce the criminals who work under the table?


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I agree with spidey that we should give some sort of bonus money for politicians to reach budget goals that help the country and people as well as save money. I don't know if I want them earning millions though and would like to add that any idea brought forward must also help the country in the long term as well as the short term. This way you won't have the make it good now but explode later like the banking crisis.

I was also thinking that the people in the high tax bracket should be able to direct a percent of their taxes to things that will help the country like education goals or materials that can help people in need with promise to reach goals to help the country. This money can even go to open education centers that CEO's or other smart people think is necessary to fill the needs of business in the future. This money will also be free of meddling from any government as long as it goes to areas determined as safe of corruption or whatever.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

_"I agree with spidey that we should give some sort of bonus money for politicians to reach budget goals that help the country and people as well as save money."_

The problem is coming up with the goals. As we have already seen, everyone has a different opinion of what should or shouldn't be done. We all like to say, cut the spending, reduce the deficeit, lower taxes, but when it comes to the actuals, we all want someone elses services to be cut, we will not pay higher taxes to lower the deficeit and we definitely cannot agree on what departments should be privatized and what shouldn't. So all in all, when it comes to government, we have exactly what we have asked for.

As for the bonuses. All that would happen is they would come up with some goals that they know they will achieve or ones they can manipulate the numbers well enough to say they have achieved them (have you ever listened to a speach of an encumbant during an election. They sound like they have single handedly saved the world), and then not only would they get their salary and overly generous pension plan, but now they would get a big honking bonus on top of it.

No thanks. I do like Berubeland's idea of charging them with fraud when they lie during their campaign promises. If anything, it wouldn't hurt if we didn't re-elect them the next time they run, but that must be asking too much of our democratic society.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Your right optsyeagle politicians sound like exploring gold companies when they talk. If the opposition says you cut back in health care they will counter with we have increased the health budget by billions and billions even though they have cut everywhere as an example. It makes you scratch your head when they talk. Yeah I guess we have to apply the berubeland ideas here. I feel for BC premier Gordon Campbell because he will get so many liar tattoos on him that you wouldn't recognize him anymore.


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## ghostryder (Apr 5, 2009)

dogcom said:


> I also think we should have a budget system that doesn't allow the left or the right to come up with extreme policies without some sort of huge vote like 75 percent of parliament passing it. If a government proposes huge spending increases that go over some set of parameters of a budget then they would not be able to proceed without passing it through a much tougher vote then a simple majority.



Sounds good in theory. In practice, there are more than a few US states with laws that prevent the elected government from raising taxes by more than a set parameter without voter approval.

You then get into situations where people vote against tax increases even when they are necessary. Such as voters not approving tax increases to build/operate prisons. Then the voters whine when convicts get released early because there is no room to hold them all.






dogcom said:


> I think if you want more revenue, then tell all people afraid of getting caught on taxes, but want a way out, then give them a window to claim it. This means saying if you claim revenue by such a date then you will not be prosecuted and can come clean.


Voluntary Disclosure Program.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/gncy/nvstgtns/vdp-eng.html


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