# GMDD in London, Ont. closing, 460 out of work.



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Not sure how many of you here are following what's happening with our railway builders, but General Motors Diesel Division (GMDD, currently owned by Caterpillar) of London, Ont. has been closed after an apparent failure to reach an agreement. I guess Cat's 58% jump on 4th quarter profits were not sufficient for them.

http://www.canada.com/business/Caterpillar+closing+Electro+Motive+plant+London/6097597/story.html


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Reality sucks doesn't it. I hope they have enough savings to get re-educated/re-trained for other jobs other than manufacturing. Maybe it would be prudent for the towns to build a few more homeless shelters inevitably many of these guys and even entire families will slip through the cracks. Just something we'll have to adapt to.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Apparently the work is being moved to EMD Muncie (Indiana). With our dollar at parity it works out to about half the cost for CAT.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

It was very clear from the start that Caterpillar was intent on moving to the USA. Attempting to blame the workers to justify their actions is about what I would expect.
I've read some comments in news reports from people that don't work there and are anti union that buy all the garbage this company puts out.

Sure would like to know what any of those folks think if someone came alone and wanted to cut their pay 50%.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I continually read about retraining and skills being the solution, so it is worth noting that many of the jobs at Electromotive were skilled trades or professional designations.

Engineers of all types, purchasing, mechanical draftsmen, inventory control, welding, millwrights, machinists, electricians, painters, fork lift mechanics, robotic technicians, accountants, lawyers, and yes..........some general assembly workers who put all the parts together............

Ford Motor company recently closed the nearby Talbotville plant, sending more skilled workers out of a job.

So........what exactly do these skilled workers train to do?

Personal support worker........at minimum wage?

Restaurant and hospitality.....at minimum wage?

Perhaps they could work in a call centre.....whoops, they have closed down as well. Minimum wage was too high for them to pay.

Maybe we could all work for the government.......police, nurses, teachers etc.

Canada is imploding. We have been lied to about free trade with China and they are taking our jobs and selling us their products.

Now, they are entering the second phase of their plans.......using our money to buy our natural resources.

They are slowly but surely, buying and integrating a complete supply line of oil from Alberta to China, uninterupted by anyone in between. 

They are sniffing around potash and farmland in Alberta and Saskatchewan.......and are buying natural assets all over the world. Hardly a day goes by that they aren't buying somewhere in Africa, Australia or the Middle East. They do it as quietly as possible, paying top dollar in cash. They don't want a bidding war and the resultant publicity. They are in stealth mode and on a highly planned long term mission. They plan in decades........not the next election cycle.

There is........and never was an upside for North America to open the borders to China. They continue their unchallenged quest for world dominance, while our politicians believe their promises of increased trade opportunities in China.....sometime in the distant future.

People just don't get it.............

Our borders are open.........theirs aren't and never will be.

If you want to sell Buicks in China........you have to build Buicks in China.

A recent study of Apple manufacturing in China revealed a whole raft of future problems. The US lost not only the hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs.......but all the technology and manufacturing expertise of all the various products that are integral to the manufacture of those products, also now reside in China. Everything from the plastic case to the batteries and everything in between is now in the hands of the Chinese.

In plain words, Apple couldn't build their products in the USA if they wanted to, for lack of suppliers.

In addition, there is a history of Chinese companies building products, acquiring the technical information from the owners, and then building their own, cheaper version of the same product, and offering them to competitors.

Electromotive is moving to the US, which is fair play.......I believe that we can compete with the US, and still maintain some semblance of an quality of living. China........we really don't want their quality of life.

We have to close the doors to China. They are sucking the life out of our country and laughing at our naietivity while they do it.

Chairman Mao summed up the Chinese philosphy when asked about the ramifications of a nuclear war...........a few hundred million people, here or there, ..........who cares?

Why we would believe opening our doors to a communist, police state, devoid of human rights, health and safety, or environmental controls was a good idea.........is beyond me.

Yes, we can compete with the USA, but only without China impacting competitive wages in both countries, forcing us to compete with each other at ever lower levels.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> I continually read about retraining and skills being the solution, so it is worth noting that many of the jobs at Electromotive were skilled trades or professional designations.


Well it came as no surprise..the writing was on the wall..they decided a few months ago to close the plant..they just need an excuse like their wage/benefit cut demand causing the strike and lockout. ie; Here is our FINAL offer...take it or leave it!




> In addition, there is a history of Chinese companies building products, acquiring the technical information from the owners, and then building their own, cheaper version of the same product, and offering them to competitors.
> 
> Electromotive is moving to the US, which is fair play.......I believe that we can compete with the US, and still maintain some semblance of an quality of living. China........we really don't want their quality of life.
> 
> We have to close the doors to China. They are sucking the life out of our country and laughing at our naietivity while they do it.


In a global economy such as we have now, we simply cannot close our doors to foreign investment nor trade, it will stifle
what little growth there is now in the economy. It just ain't going to happen..we cannot go back to the 30s again. 

China has the money to buy, we have the raw materials to sell, they have the manufacturing base to make
goods a lot cheaper....end of story. Nobody here is going to invest in hundreds of millions to set up a factory,
hire union workers, benefits/pension plans, pay federal, provincial and municipal taxes, exorbitant hydro rates and
all the other things that workers and gov'ts demand these days..when they can simply go online and order
100,000 "widgets" for a fixed price...import it and sell it for a profit. 
If you think that an entrepreneur is going to to that today...you are dreaming in technicolor.....those days ARE OVER!

What we will see in NA is a steady erosion of manufacturing jobs and more unemployment and the jobs that are left will be lower paying part time with no benefits or pensions. Already, the feds want to raise the OAS eligibilty age to 67, because they can't see how in a declining economy they will have enough revenue coming in to pay out the OAS pensions in the next 10 years.



> Yes, we can compete with the USA, but only without China impacting competitive wages in both countries, forcing us to compete with each other at ever lower levels.


Yes..and what jobs will be left will be part time with practrically no benefits..and whatever they decide to offer in wages.
When you have no food in the cupboards, you take whatever is available out there. The gov't retraining program hasn't
a clue of what is still out there as far as jobs..they just retrain by category..you want to be a computer analyst..
sure we will retrain you..even if the last job you had for 10-15 years was an assembly worker at some US subsidiary.


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## somecanuck (Dec 23, 2011)

China's population is around 1.34 billion versus Canada and the US having a combined population of around 341 million, or around one quarter the size. I'm not surprised that they're taking over manufacturing, and I won't be surprised if (when?) they surpass us in science and most other pursuits. My surprise is that India, with 1.17 billion, hasn't become a bigger threat in the same areas.

Unless we can offer some advantage that isn't easy to reproduce in China or India, we won't be able to hang onto any sort of job that can be performed cheaper over there and shipped to us. The same holds true for any job that can be performed remotely through the Internet.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

I feel sorry for these workers but if it can be done cheaper somewhere else? The alternative is to build high tariff walls and the rest of us can subsidize these workers who incidently were very well paid in comparison to other working Canadians. Are Canadians inherently more worthy to earn a living than others such as Chinese or Indians or Americans? Doubt it.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Square Root said:


> I feel sorry for these workers but if it can be done cheaper somewhere else? The alternative is to build high tariff walls and the rest of us can subsidize these workers who incidently were very well paid in comparison to other working Canadians. Are Canadians inherently more worthy to earn a living than others such as Chinese or Indians or Americans? Doubt it.


+1 

I don't understand the sentiment of "their plan all along was to close the plant". Their 'plan' was to cut costs to increase profits - this is what companies do.

I think this plant was a victim of two things 1) Strong Canuck dollar and 2) Strong union.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> +1
> 
> I don't understand the sentiment of "*their plan all along was to close the plant*". Their 'plan' was to cut costs to increase profits - this is what companies do.
> 
> I think this plant was a victim of two things 1) Strong Canuck dollar and 2) Strong union.


Are you quoting me? Read the online news articles, then. 

What I said was that they decided that if they couldn't get concessions
for wage reductions from the unions, they threatened they would close the
plant..what part of the sentiment do you not understand? 

<from online sources below>
Bob Scott, chairman of CAW Local 27, said he doesn't regret the union's tough stand, even if it has resulted in the loss of 465 union jobs.

"What we did was right. It took us forever to get these wages, I will not look back at what we did. We held out for what was right," he said.

He also said he believes the stance sends a strong signal to other employers they cannot come in and intimidate London workers in an effort to slash wages, so it will provide long-term benefits.

*"I don't think this company ever had the intention of negotiating a collective agreement*," he said. <endquote>

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2012/02/20120203-124040.html


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Square Root said:


> I feel sorry for these workers but if it can be done cheaper somewhere else? The alternative is to build high tariff walls and the rest of us can subsidize these workers who incidently were very well paid in comparison to other working Canadians. Are Canadians inherently more worthy to earn a living than others such as Chinese or Indians or Americans? Doubt it.


This.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

carverman said:


> Are you quoting me?


No. I never read any of your posts because they are too long.


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

carverman said:


> Bob Scott, chairman of CAW Local 27, said he doesn't regret the union's tough stand, even if it has resulted in the loss of 465 union jobs.
> 
> "What we did was right. It took us forever to get these wages, I will not look back at what we did. We held out for what was right," he said.
> 
> He also said he believes the stance sends a strong signal to other employers they cannot come in and intimidate London workers in an effort to slash wages, so it will provide long-term benefits.


Yes, congratulations Bob... Now instead of making 50%, 460(465?) people are now making 0%.

For all the talk of China and India, these jobs ended up in the USA, where living standards are arguably similar to here in Canada.

No wonder our unemployment rate keeps rising. Canadians don't want to work. Unless they get $30+/hour.

On the upside, now there's 460 skilled workers that can apply their knowledge of heavy machinery in Alberta where it is in high demand. More likely taxpayers will end up footing the bill to keep them sitting around in London.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

The decision for this company to shutdown had nothing to do with the workers wages & benefits.
This was a political move using the workers as scape goats.

Corporate America at its finest.
We can bet there were many tax dollars on the table to move this operation to the USA.
Those that suggest making a living wage is wrong either don't have one or are self-employed constantly looking for tax breaks to live off the rest of us.

Those workers at that manufacture went to work paid taxes and contributed to their community. How many secondary jobs have been lost in the process.
The cost of living is not going down last time I checked.
To say the cost of manufacturing in China, Mexico, India is the way to go sure but they don't have the same values ie environmental, treatment of workers, child labor, treatment of women.
I think the corporate leaders should go and live in these places with their families if they feel that is the way to go. But no they would rather have the standard of living in Canada or the USA for themselves.

Self Employed sure the guy earning a pay check does not write off his car and gas or his lunch he does not put a business credit card on the counter to pay for personal items. I know many self employed people they can rattle off all the perks of what one can get away with.
Know one here would do that of course just honest business people.


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## officematt (Oct 16, 2011)

The sad thing is that these people think they deserve these obscene wages, for what can be best described as semi-skilled. If they had skills, there would not be an issue, as they would be easily transferred elsewhere. i.e. there is a job boom in SK and AB, but unemployed/underemployed workers in Eastern Canada have no incentive to move, they would rather collect pogey, and claim that they have been victimized by Big Corporate, when in fact, they did it to themselves, with a helping hand from their 'friend' Big Union.

No sympathy from this quarter. This is a lesson to everyone. Learn a few skills. Enroll at a vocational college. Stop thinking you are king or queen of the world once you get out of high school.

Companies are in the business of making profits and returning them to their shareholders. If they cannot do that, they get out of that business. Something that is not economic or profitable deserves to whither and die. Hence what happened to this factory.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

Seem pretty angry, Daniel A. More a rant than post. So what do you think we should do? Put up tariff walls and leave NAFTA?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Dmoney said:


> Yes, congratulations Bob... Now instead of making 50%, 460(465?) people are now making 0%.
> 
> On the upside, now there's 460 skilled workers that can apply their knowledge of heavy machinery in Alberta where it is in high demand. More likely taxpayers will end up footing the bill to keep them sitting around in London.


C'mon be realistic DMoney..do you expect the unions to accept a 50% paycut immediately without some negotiation/scaling? ..of course they had their
backs up..and I doubt that even at 50% wage reductions, that plant wouldn't
have kept going for more than a year with the economic situations in the states.

What's China got to do with Caterpillar?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> No. I never read any of your posts because they are too long.


Good for you! I will now expect that you continue not to read my posts.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Daniel A. said:


> The decision for this company to shutdown had nothing to do with the workers wages & benefits.
> This was a political move using the workers as scape goats.


Exactly! It was a political move by head office to shut down the London plant and they came up with a scheme that would p*ss off the union and then they could lock them out..saying that the union didn't want to negotiate with 50% wage and benefit cuts...what a bunch of MALARKEY! 



> Corporate America at its finest.
> We can bet there were many tax dollars on the table to move this operation to the USA.
> Those that suggest making a living wage is wrong either don't have one or are self-employed constantly looking for tax breaks to live off the rest of us.


Unfortunately with the American economy bankrupt we will see more of this "hightailing it back their own country and streamlining production.
Canadian workers who put in 23 years or more are getting screwed just like Nortel and their corporate greed that eventually killed them. 

Nortel relied on the US economy for about 70% of their business and when the "fit hit the shan in 2008"..and they weren't prepared to weather it because they had expanded into countries, where there was no business forthcoming and then
...the US dried up...



> Those workers at that manufacture went to work paid taxes and contributed to their community. How many secondary jobs have been lost in the process.
> The cost of living is not going down last time I checked.
> To say the cost of manufacturing in China, Mexico, India is the way to go sure but they don't have the same values ie environmental, treatment of workers, child labor, treatment of women.
> I think the corporate leaders should go and live in these places with their families if they feel that is the way to go. But no they would rather have the standard of living in Canada or the USA for themselves.


In in capitalist society there are big winners and big losers. The communist system the way it was practiced in the USSR was no better. The Chinese have managed to find middle ground in their communist system in spite of ignoring human rights..in the west we have human rights but consumer manufacturing and production is going down the toilet..slowly albeit.


Too much reading?.. Call 1-800 I-Never-read-your-posts-because-they-are-too-long.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

officematt said:


> T
> No sympathy from this quarter. This is a lesson to everyone. Learn a few skills. Enroll at a vocational college. Stop thinking you are king or queen of the world once you get out of high school.
> 
> Companies are in the business of making profits and returning them to their shareholders. If they cannot do that, they get out of that business. *Something that is not economic or profitable deserves to whither and die. Hence what happened to this factor*y.


Yup and you have ALL the solutions! 

Try CAT not giving them sufficient warning ahead of time..and workers who
have done nothing wrong except to try an earn a living and pay taxes
to f%%%^^& McGuinty (the tax man) and Harper now have to deal with
the aftermath.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

Square Root said:


> Seem pretty angry, Daniel A. More a rant than post. So what do you think we should do? Put up tariff walls and leave NAFTA?


Angry yes, I find that most comments seem to blame the average worker for decisions they have little or no control over.
The wages quoted are a red herring and sound really good to many that is until one looks at the level of deductions from that pay.
60,000.00 -- 70,000.00 in wages the worker will see around 40% in deductions so net works out to less than 40,000.00

Self employed folks really don't want their wages put out for scrutiny they do their best to make sure others don't find out just how good they have things, yet they have plenty to say about anyone with an open book.

Ontario's manufacturing sector has been beat into the ground starting with NAFTA, after it was signed the shutters went up on many branch operations.
Now companies take over other companies and shut them down for competition reasons, that appears to be the case here.
Yellow Pages is another.

I'm retired and happy to not be in a position of depending on a job anymore.
Forty years of working and watching political games have improved my game.

I've watched many in management rolls strut around being special till a shakeup hit. The only guy in charge is the one who owns the company.

Many years ago I watched an HR guy can 13 people as the bus was leaving his boss told him to get on the buss, they must have forgot to tell him before hand.

Everyone is special, the janitor, the production worker, the supervisor , the manager, when a company decides to close up rarely do they care about your education that is only important at hiring.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

officematt said:


> The sad thing is that these people think they deserve these obscene wages, for what can be best described as semi-skilled. If they had skills, there would not be an issue, as they would be easily transferred elsewhere. i.e. there is a job boom in SK and AB, but unemployed/underemployed workers in Eastern Canada have no incentive to move, they would rather collect pogey, and claim that they have been victimized by Big Corporate, when in fact, they did it to themselves, with a helping hand from their 'friend' Big Union.
> 
> No sympathy from this quarter. This is a lesson to everyone. Learn a few skills. Enroll at a vocational college. Stop thinking you are king or queen of the world once you get out of high school.
> 
> Companies are in the business of making profits and returning them to their shareholders. If they cannot do that, they get out of that business. Something that is not economic or profitable deserves to whither and die. Hence what happened to this factory.



Few companies share your view just read their integrity policies!!
Do you have the skills necessary to do the job of those workers?


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

carverman said:


> C'mon be realistic DMoney..do you expect the unions to accept a 50% paycut immediately without some negotiation/scaling? ..of course they had their
> backs up..and I doubt that even at 50% wage reductions, that plant wouldn't
> have kept going for more than a year with the economic situations in the states.
> 
> What's China got to do with Caterpillar?


I expect the union to act in the best interests of the employees. Union math would apparently calculate that 50% is greater than 0%. If I went into work tomorrow and was told that my pay would be cut in half, I'd continue working until I found a better opportunity.

I wouldn't be happy, I'd be right pissed off and my employer would have completely lost my loyalty, but at least I would be employed. 

While I do sympathize with the employees, I think the union needs to shoulder some of the blame. 

If we give union members the right to bargain collectively, then we can't whine and complain when companies/plants shut down completely because they were squeezed to tightly.

Everyone is pointing to CAT being incredibly profitable, but if the plant itself wasn't, then there should have been no expectation that it remain open.


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

Daniel A. said:


> Angry yes, I find that most comments seem to blame the average worker for decisions they have little or no control over.
> The wages quoted are a red herring and sound really good to many that is until one looks at the level of deductions from that pay.
> 60,000.00 -- 70,000.00 in wages the worker will see around 40% in deductions so net works out to less than 40,000.00
> 
> Self employed folks really don't want their wages put out for scrutiny they do their best to make sure others don't find out just how good they have things, yet they have plenty to say about anyone with an open book.


I'm not sure what your crusade against the self-employed is all about... I don't think anyone else brought it up did they?

Aside from the self-employed (a small segment of the overall population), we all see 40%+ deductions from our pay. This isn't strictly the plight of these workers. 

The difference is, they start at 60-70K, whereas the guy making 40K is taken down well below 30K after all the deductions. No matter how you spin it, these guys were making more than market wage, and a company is always going to go for cheaper labour when it is available. 

Also, keep in mind that the 40% deductions is now going to be paying the former employees EI. That's what it's there for. 

It's awful when people lose their jobs, but that's the economic reality at the moment. Why are they more entitled to a high paying job than the other 7.6% of the workforce that is unemployed?


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

Dmoney said:


> I'm not sure what your crusade against the self-employed is all about... I don't think anyone else brought it up did they?
> 
> Aside from the self-employed (a small segment of the overall population), we all see 40%+ deductions from our pay. This isn't strictly the plight of these workers.
> 
> ...


I have no crusade against the self-employed many posters on this board are self-employed, my point is when someone can look at a union contract with disdain and offer their view I have to ask who these folks are.
A high number of the comments come from self-employed people who are at least as well off.
Self-employed and small business make up a large part of the economy in Canada.
Market wage how did you work this out? 

Wages amount to a very small percentage of the cost of a locomotive.

I live in a very affiliate area of self-employed and small business people.
I know their wealth and their view on workers.
At any suggestion of increasing the minimum wage that these folks pay brings a cry & hue from them that their business won't survive.
There kids have the best of everything, they drive very expensive SUVs and own million dollar homes but they can't afford to pay .50 cents an hour more.

The self-employed would never want anyone to know or comment on the expenses they file but don't mind commenting on someone else's income.
The 40% is not going to EI now.

What is it that you do for a living?


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Dmoney said:


> I expect the union to act in the best interests of the employees. Union math would apparently calculate that 50% is greater than 0%. If I went into work tomorrow and was told that my pay would be cut in half, I'd continue working until I found a better opportunity.


It's my opinion that the union completely sold out those workers. The union had to maintain their wage standard for the benefit of the union and the other workers in the union.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

That company had no interest in negotiating anything, I'm wondering what the union did to sell out the workers?

There is not one person who would accept a 50% wage cut.
It's called constructive dismissal.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> It's my opinion that the union completely sold out those workers. The union had to maintain their wage standard for the benefit of the union and the other workers in the union.


Unions are democratic. They have meetings and votes.

The workers voted to reject the contract offered by Caterpillar, and instructed the union negotiators to advise the company and continue negotiations. Caterpillar's response was to lock them out.

They are big boys and knew exactly what the choices were.

Accept a major wage cut and loss of benefits.........or possibly lose the job.

They also know that the company could very well sign an agreement, have them work for half the money, and then close the plant anyways........which would leave them in a position of collecting a smaller severance package and less EI benefits.

Companies have done it before to squeeze out some extra profits and to save severance costs.

Caterpillar exercised their rights as an employer.

It is now up to Canadians......farmers, construction company owners, governments.......to exercise their right not to buy Caterpiller products or retain companies who do.

A national boycott campaign won't save the jobs, but there would be a cost Caterpillar and serve notice to other companies.

The locomotive, oil and mining industry would be good places to start. Send the business to someone else.......manufacturing in Canada.

Before the "protectionism is wrong" parade starts........the US is fully engaged in it.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Dmoney said:


> I expect the union to act in the best interests of the employees. Union math would apparently calculate that 50% is greater than 0%. If I went into work tomorrow and was told that my pay would be cut in half, I'd continue working until I found a better opportunity.


Easy for you to say with your "armchair" viewpoint!  

Try being a hourly worker at CAT, with a mortgage and debts up to your ears and paying 40% taxes on what you earn. Try going into a grocery store and seeing what things now cost $4.99 /6.99/$9.99 and up for some meats and many other products.
Try getting your car repaired at 50% recuction when repairs now cost $100 an hour + HST these days + the cost of parts!

Ask the city of London to give you a 50% realty tax break because your wages have been cut 50%..and if you are a union member ..

try convincining everyone else to take survival wages from an employer of many years that has just unceremoniously threatened to pull the rug from under your feet!



> I_ wouldn't be happy, I'd be right pissed off and my employer would have completely lost my loyalty, but at least I would be employed. _


_

Yup, and then they would find a reason for firing you because you were unhappy and complaining a lot. Easy for anyone to say, when they are NOT the ones to get impacted with those kind of wage cuts! Those that can't make their mortgage payments will lose their homes to the greedy banks that couldn't care less what the worker's plight is. 

That FAt banker just wants his money ....or he will kick you and your wife and any kids onto the street..
this is what happened in the US in many cases. So, would you be happy living on the street from your armchair?




While I do sympathize with the employees, I think the union needs to shoulder some of the blame.

Click to expand...

Why should the union shoulder the blame..they were willing to negotiate but not starting at 50% wage cuts right away. People need time to adjust. You don't seem to understand this! 

CAT "had it out right from the beginning", that they wanted to close the plant because of economic reasons.
They just happened to find a way to P*SS off the union and make it easy for them.




If we give union members the right to bargain collectively, *then we can't whine and complain when companies/plants shut down completely* 
because they were squeezed to tightly.

Click to expand...

Collective bargaining has two sides to the coin...however when there is NO coin tossed..just a threat by the company to take it or leave it.. then I would do the same thing...this is basically extortion by the company CAT, in this case! 




Everyone is pointing to CAT being incredibly profitable, but if the plant itself wasn't, then there should have been no expectation that it remain open.

Click to expand...

And they still are profitable..and there might have been a solution long term, but when you get the rug pulled out from under your feet..._


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Dmoney said:


> The difference is, they start at 60-70K, whereas the guy making 40K is taken down well below 30K after all the deductions. No matter how you spin it, *these guys were making more than market wage, and a company is always going to go for cheaper labour when it is available.*


Most of them are hourly skilled workers, and depending on the level of their skill, they are worth what they earn. 
Try telling a auto mechanic (another skilled worker) or plumber/electrician..you are NOT worth what you are
getting or charging. They would walk out the door on the job and leave you sitting there with your incomplete project after p*ssing them off!

Sure companies will go for cheaper labour, depending on the skill set..
maybe CAT is going to send their production to China to get them built there cheaper and sell them here for a profit..after all that's the American (Capitalist) way..to screw the enployees in order to make profits to keep their stocks up and the big bosses making multi-million dollar salaries with all sorts of perks...while the hourly worker should feed his family Kraft dinner. 



> Also, keep in mind that the 40% deductions is now going to be paying the former employees EI. That's what it's there for.


Your math is flawed my friend. The tax deductions is spent elsewhere. The workes PAID INTO AN EI FUND WHEN THEY WERE WORKING!

Harper will spend it (TAX DEDUCTED FROM THEM) on superjets, superjails and giving the big US corporations more tax cuts in order to make them more profitable, SO THEY CAN CLOSE DOWN MORE CANADIAN PLANTS IN THE FUTURE! 
The Americans have him in their back pockets, so he's just a puppet here.

The only reason he's off to China now..is because the Americans have decided not to go ahead with the oil pipeline and he's under pressure(pun intended) from "Big Oil" to sell the product somewhere so they can maximize their profits!
The more demand for oil, the more YOU and everyone else will pay for their gas this year. 



> It's awful when people lose their jobs, but that's the economic reality at the moment. Why are they more entitled to a high paying job than the other 7.6% of the workforce that is unemployed?


What does the other 7.6% that are unemployed have to do with the Workers at CAT that just got screwed by their employer of many years?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Daniel A. said:


> That company had no interest in negotiating anything, I'm wondering what the union did to sell out the workers?
> 
> There is not one person who would accept a 50% wage cut.
> *It's called constructive dismissal*.


CAT wanted to close the plant. They found a way to do it. Call it what you want, the end result, even IF the union had agreed to accept a 50% pay cut..the company would give them a few more months and then pulled the rug from under their feet.
I support the union in this case, because there *WAS NO ROOM for any negotiation *and allowing the workers to slowly
find jobs elsewhere, because there aren't that many jobs in London.

This is what NAFTA has done for us..there is no such thing as "free trade".. the Americans (which is our biggest market) set the rules and call the shots...if we don't like it....they just tell us "tough!..suck it up!"


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

As someone who has recently experienced jobless due to, in a large part, to outsourcing to India, I have great sympathy for the workers and I think that CAT is behaving ruthlessly. However, the CAW also has a history of ruthlessness which has probably caught up with them - the days of getting $36 per hour for this type of work (more than many people with Masters degrees are making) are likely over. If the union had been smart they probably would have negotiated that $18 proposed pay to $20. My guess is, given the immense moving costs, that amount would have been acceptable to the company. I fully realize that such a salary cut is a hard pill to swallow but $20 per hour is much better than the minimum wage jobs that many in this plant will be lucky to find. As for blaming it on Harper - first of all, private-company labour negotiations fall under provincial jurisdiction and second of all, you just can't force companies to stay in your country.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Spidey said:


> However, the CAW also has a history of ruthlessness which has probably caught up with them - the days of getting $36 per hour for this type of work (more than many people with Masters degrees are making) are likely over.


Your analogy of production/assembly workers making more than people with Master's degrees (in what?) doesn't hold water.
Production line workers are highly skilled assemblers, quality testers and production engineers.

Machines even if they are bulldozers require engines that run on tight tolerances..you can't just take some kid out of college with a masters in philosophy (or whatever), and plunk him onto an engine assembly line where mechanical tolerances
and production schedules are very tight. That takes training, skill and experience.

So what?..over X years the workers have had yearly raises in union bargaining collective agreements to compensate them for cost of living which is going up..(as you well know each year)...(gasoline insurance etc) and workers need to compensated for their production on the job. 

Take your car to dealership or even an independent garage..and tell them..hey your mechanics are making too much!!..I don't want to pay $90 a hour (+HST) for your labour rate..I want you to fix my car for $25 or $30 an hour, because that is ALL I'm making right now with my Masters degree in whatever. They will look incredulously at you if not laugh in your face!



> If the union had been smart they probably would have negotiated that $18 proposed pay to $20. My guess is, given the immense moving costs, that amount would have been acceptable to the company.


Wouda-couda-shouda..that is fine for someone who is not involved in this dispute to make an armchair comment..after all it's only your opinion and it's not costing you anything. Put yourself in the the workers place..a single mother, or a family with 2-3 kids and needing every cent they can get these days to survive in an ever increasing cost of living..with Harper starting
to cut back on everything.except the deals he signed with the Americans on useless jets that are going to cost even
more to keep flying. 



> I fully realize that such a salary cut is a hard pill to swallow but $20 per hour is much better than the minimum wage jobs that many in this plant will be lucky to find.


So you are one of the ones that would take a 50% pay cut and be happy that you still have a job..ok..but there are others that wouldn't be able to survive for very long. 



> As for blaming it on Harper - first of all, private-company labour negotiations fall under provincial jurisdiction and second of all, you just can't force companies to stay in your country.


I'm not blaming it all on Harper..McGuinty is equally as guilty for not stepping in and helping out..he's basically a "BSer" full of political hot air and when push comes to shove..all he can do is raise taxes somewhere to compensate for the shortfall.
He's done a "wonderful job" with the provincial budget so far! 

No you can't force companies to stay in this country if they don't want to because they are opportunists..they will come in and set up shop with taxpayer dollars/tax concessions and then pull out when the economic climate doesn't suit them.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

carverman said:


> Your analogy of production/assembly workers making more than people with Master's degrees (in what?) doesn't hold water.
> Production line workers are highly skilled assemblers, quality testers and production engineers.
> 
> Machines even if they are bulldozers require engines that run on tight tolerances..you can't just take some kid out of college with a masters in philosophy (or whatever), and plunk him onto an engine assembly line where mechanical tolerances
> and production schedules are very tight. That takes training, skill and experience.


What someone is worth is always difficult. But in a free market-place if you have a significant portion of the population who would accept and can do the job for less, then your wage is probably over-market and only being justified by protection from a union. A certain amount of such protection is likely fair and protects workers from being taken advantage of by employers - but where that point falls is largely subjective and influenced by political leanings. I do think it is reasonable, however, to compare the skill level and education commitment from other industries as a bit of an indication.

Some of the CAT workers that I saw interviewed on the news, who were making this salary, had 3 years experience. And they were apparently just "plunked" into the job out of highschool or perhaps college. I would also expect that the production engineers were making much more than $36 per hour average. 

It takes 6 years or more and an incredible financial investment (perhaps over $100,000) to achieve a Masters degree. And there are many examples of these people with Masters or PHDs making well under $36 per hour - many scientists (I know this for a fact), some lawyers, many nurses, younger teachers, some university professors, the list goes on. It's easy to verify this - just look at job postings and the salary offered.



> So you are one of the ones that would take a 50% pay cut and be happy that you still have a job..ok..but there are others that wouldn't be able to survive for very long.


No, admittedly I wouldn't be happy. I would be furious. But the writing was on the wall. How long are they going to survive now? $20 per hour is better than $10.


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

Daniel A. said:


> I have no crusade against the self-employed many posters on this board are self-employed, my point is when someone can look at a union contract with disdain and offer their view I have to ask who these folks are.


Gotcha. That's likely why there are such strong views on this topic. If I'm self employed running a business, every dollar spent paying employees is a dollar out of my pocket. Corporations are just on a larger scale. 



Daniel A. said:


> Market wage how did you work this out?


I'd argue that market wage is the wage that Americans are willing to take to do the exact same job. 



Daniel A. said:


> The 40% is not going to EI now.


Yes, and that is the most unfortunate part. Instead of these workers paying tax, they are now not workers, and a drain on the rest of us who are paying tax. 



Daniel A. said:


> What is it that you do for a living?


I work for the bad guys , a financial services firm.



carverman said:


> Easy for you to say with your "armchair" viewpoint!


Unless someone says otherwise, it seems that we all only have an "armchair" viewpoint of this situation. All the facts are known by very few, and even those with all the facts have their own agenda to push. (ie. union insiders, company management). 




carverman said:


> Try being a hourly worker at CAT, with a mortgage and debts up to your ears and paying 40% taxes on what you earn. Try going into a grocery store and seeing what things now cost $4.99 /6.99/$9.99 and up for some meats and many other products.
> Try getting your car repaired at 50% recuction when repairs now cost $100 an hour + HST these days + the cost of parts!


Try being an hourly worker at loblaws, with rent to pay, debt up to your ears and paying 40% taxes on what you earn... (incidentally these guys were likely paying far less than 40% taxes on their earnings).

If it's so costly to get your car repaired, become a mechanic... If these guys are so skilled that they can assemble complicated construction machinery, they should have no problem learning the ins and outs of automobiles, and should be making $100/hr in no time. Hell, losing their jobs is the best thing that could have happened, they can now double their salary instead of cutting it in half...(sarcastic).

People have it tough all around, what makes these people so special?



carverman said:


> That FAt banker just wants his money ....or he will kick you and your wife and any kids onto the street..
> this is what happened in the US in many cases. So, would you be happy living on the street from your armchair?


The fat banker paid for your house. You signed a contract agreeing to pay the fat banker back within certain parameters. You would still be on the street if the fat banker hadn't agreed to loan you the money, with the expectation that the fat banker would get it back. I wouldn't be happy living on the street, which is why I don't take on obligations that I can't handle.




carverman said:


> Why should the union shoulder the blame..they were willing to negotiate but not starting at 50% wage cuts right away. People need time to adjust. You don't seem to understand this!
> 
> CAT "had it out right from the beginning", that they wanted to close the plant because of economic reasons.
> They just happened to find a way to P*SS off the union and make it easy for them.


This is where the facts get fuzzy. I'm not going to try and argue what CAT wanted, what the union wanted, what the employees wanted, simply because I don't know all the facts. Clearly though, the union and the employees wanted more than CAT was willing to concede. In that respect, yes, the union and employees need to accept some responsibility.

If CAT only moved because of massive subsidies in the US, that's another issue entirely, but if wages in the US are half of Canadian wages, that's a union/employee issue.




carverman said:


> Most of them are hourly skilled workers, and depending on the level of their skill, they are worth what they earn.
> Try telling a auto mechanic (another skilled worker) or plumber/electrician..you are NOT worth what you are
> getting or charging. They would walk out the door on the job and leave you sitting there with your incomplete project after p*ssing them off!


If a US worker with the same skill can do the job for half the money, then they are not worth what they earn. The market clearly just dictated that. The same goes for any plumber or electrician. If one charges $25/hr, and the other charges $50/hr with no difference between the two, the second guy is *not* worth $50/hr.



carverman said:


> Your math is flawed my friend. The tax deductions is spent elsewhere. The workes PAID INTO AN EI FUND WHEN THEY WERE WORKING!


Yes, I meant to say that *part* of their deductions goes to funding EI. Unfortunately we don't all get to decide where our individual taxes go, or else I think the country would look drastically different. Sadly, that's the price of living in a democratic society. I'd rather my taxes went to my Ferarri fund, but super jails are in the cards. That's life, and I can only whine here about inefficient use of my tax $$.




carverman said:


> What does the other 7.6% that are unemployed have to do with the Workers at CAT that just got screwed by their employer of many years?


In an environment where there are literally millions of Canadians without work, 460 people are now not working because they were _only _ going to be making $18-22/hr. 

If I were to calculate my hourly pay based on salary divided by number of hours worked, I'm making less than $22/hr. I find it hard to be overly sympathetic towards them in that respect.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

There's something I don't get about this whole CAT layoff thing. Ontario has a HUGE skills gap for trades people with the ability to assemble and repair heavy machinery. Especially with respect to large electric motors and generators. 

Why can't these folks in London transfer assembly skills to service work. 

If they have experience with diesel generators, there are hundreds of openings in Ontario. 
In fact, Toromont-Cat, the Caterpillar dealer for Ontario has at least 100 technician positions open right now. How tough would it be to refocus the skills of these people. 

I think the answer is that the union representing that plant was *one *local representing skilled and trained technicians/engineering staff as well as menial warehouse and cleaning staff and other semi-skilled or unskilled labourers. 

Because all vote equally, it is hard for the local to negotiate one contract that will serve the needs of all. Two separate unions - one for skilled, and another for semi-skilled may have helped in this case.

I suspect the most skilled people in that plant will not miss one paycheck as long as they are flexible and willing to relocate in Ontario or other parts of eastern Canada.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

have a look at these openings:
http://www.toromontcat.com/career_opportunities.asp
^^ does that seem like a much different business? different skills?
those are all good jobs with pensions, profit sharing, full benefits, and usually as much overtime as you want. I know, I worked for that company for 15 years. They are always hungry for manpower. And they aren't the only game in town.....That industry has offered bounties for technician referrals since the 1980's.


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## buaya (Jan 7, 2011)

On a tangent, It does not matter if it is Canadian jobs going to the US.
Boeing in Seattle was there for so long that you always associate them together.
Now Boeing wants to move most of the jobs to South Carolina - not quite sure but for sure one of those states that is what is known as non union friendly.
All I know is that big Unions are the same as big business. Businesses change with the times, Unions may have too.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Spidey, this is nothing new for CAT. They've done this sort of thing before. They were not negotiating in good faith. They knew no one would accept a 50% pay cut. That was their excuse to close the plant. That was their goal. They've achieved the goal and have a scapegoat (ie. the evil unions you are blaming) to boot. It was nothing more than a game on their part. Unions are protecting their own just like the companies do. If the company wanted it to work they wouldn't have offered something so absurd.


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

Where is everyone getting the information that CAT just wanted to close the plant?

I have read a few articles that claim that was their sole intention, but I've yet to see anything conclusive. 

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...nada-let-caterpillar-strip-a-plant-clean?bn=1

Good article (although biased) about the loss of intellectual property that might have been CAT's goal in buying the plant.

Still doesn't make sense to me to buy a plant just to close it and move the work elsewhere without trying to make it profitable.

Seems much more likely that they were trying to make the plant as competitive as it could be elsewhere, and with that made impossible by union wages, they shut it down. 

From another article:



> After being at the company for three years, the 28-year-old made $37 an hour. It was proposed that he take a wage cut to $22 an hour.
> 
> 
> "There's a lot of people who say they would do the work for $16.50 an hour but are they qualified?" he said, his voice angry. "Do they know what they're doing to stay safe? I'm paid a competitive salary because I'm educated and have a high skill set."


If you have such a good education and are so highly skilled, you'll find another job.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hystat said:


> I suspect the most skilled people in that plant will not miss one paycheck as long as they are flexible and willing to relocate in Ontario or other parts of eastern Canada.


It's easy to say from an "aimchair" position. 

Try placing yourself in place of some of those workers that would have to sell their houses...in what could be
now a depressed market in London, with all those layoffs, taking the kids out of school, moving away from a community where they know a lot of people/churches, bowling league etc..to move to yet an even more expensive real estate area
and have to travel up to an hour in heavy traffic. 

On top of that the increased price of houses in that area, the loss on their house, the $$$ real estate commission, legal fees, moving costs and a lot of disruption to their family lives....


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hystat said:


> have a look at these openings:
> http://www.toromontcat.com/career_opportunities.asp
> ^^ does that seem like a much different business? different skills?
> those are all good jobs with pensions, profit sharing, full benefits, and usually as much overtime as you want. I know, I worked for that company for 15 years. They are always hungry for manpower. And they aren't the only game in town.....That industry has offered bounties for technician referrals since the 1980's.


So??? look at the locations where most of the openings are posted...Brampton,
Concord..all high realestate areas north of Toronto. 

A couple in Timmins, one in Wiinnipeg and some in Sudbury..very cold climate
areas for those used to southern Ontario..If I was a out of work CAT employee
I would NOT want to move myself or my family to those places..
why? because I'm comfortable in my home in London.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

From Wikipedia:
_Electro-Motive Diesel, Inc., also referred to as "EMD", is a wholly owned subsidiary of Progress Rail Services Corporation, a wholly owned subsidiary of Caterpillar Inc., that designs, manufactures and sells diesel-electric locomotives and diesel power engines worldwide under the Electro-Motive Diesel brand....

EMD's headquarters, engineering facilities and parts manufacturing operations are located in La Grange, Illinois

EMD operates a traction motor maintenance, rebuild and overhaul facility in San Luis Potosí, Mexico, *and plans to begin assembling locomotives in the United States in late 2011 at a plant located in Muncie, Indiana.*_

*Oct. 29, 2010 News Release:* _Caterpillar Inc. (CAT) said Friday it will open a railroad locomotive assembly plant in Muncie, Ind., that is expected to employ up to 650 workers by 2012.

Caterpillar, which acquired locomotive builder Electro-Motive Diesel in August, plans to invest about $50 million to prepare an empty 740,000-square-foot building for locomotive assembly work...._
*
Oct.28, 2011 News Release:* Progress Rail announces Grand Opening of Muncie, Indiana, Locomotive Assembly Operation

So, they essentially announced in October, 2010 that they were building a new assembly plant in Indiana. They opened it in Oct. 2011. They have no need for 2 such assembly plants in CAN/USA. So their "offer" of a 50% pay cut was just a ruse to give them an excuse to terminate the CDN workforce and close the plant.

(I wonder what kind of deals they got from Muncie, from Indiana, and from the US govt.?)


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

This is interesting reading. http://fastlane.dot.gov/2011/11/progress-rail.html

- Construction of the plant was somehow subsidized by DoT & DoC's "Partnerships" program; and,
- Under US Congress's Buy America Plan, Progress Rail was not previously eligible to bid on any government-subsidized locomotive contracts until they built this new plant.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

carverman said:


> A couple in Timmins, one in Wiinnipeg and some in Sudbury..very cold climate
> areas for those used to southern Ontario..


Are you talking about Canadians, or tropical fish?


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I grew up in Newfoundland where it was normal for a father or mother to pack up and go away from the family for months at a time , most times just to make a bit over minimum wage jobs in Ontario.I had to leave home at 18 to come to Toronto to work ,I did not enjoy leaving my family home at 18 or only seeing them a couple weeks for the past 27 but that is what I had to do.
These workers will adapt and do what they need to do as well.
It is unfortunate for these workers and the city but reality is many people are losing their jobs and having to start over.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hystat said:


> Are you talking about Canadians, or tropical fish?


So what is your point? It's a cold climate of -40c temps in the winter.

I've been to Timmins/Cochrane Ont in January on business..and it's fine if you are a polar bear used to those extremes..but for a family that has grown up in
the "hot spot" of Ontario?....no thanks.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

marina628 said:


> These workers will adapt and do what they need to do as well.
> It is unfortunate for these workers and the city but reality is many people are losing their jobs and having to start over.


Everyone will adapt if they are forced to do so..just like people from Africa, who emigrate to Canada (Ottawa) and experience the -20c temps in Ottawa in January..you don't like it..but if you want to work....you have no choice.

However, for the families and workers of CAT subsiduary (Electro-Motive) who got screwed by the company with their tactics, it's another story. CAT did that deliberately to shut down the plant there and pull out without having to pay severance to long term workers. 
Even if CAT or any of their related subsidiary's offered me a $30 an hour in Timbuctu..I would never work for that company on principle because after those tactics, I could never trust them again to displace my family to work for them..that is dirty company politics..I don't care what anyone else says.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> This is interesting reading. http://fastlane.dot.gov/2011/11/progress-rail.html
> 
> - Construction of the plant was somehow subsidized by DoT & DoC's "Partnerships" program; and,
> - Under US Congress's Buy America Plan, Progress Rail was not previously eligible to bid on any government-subsidized locomotive contracts until they built this new plant.


Here is the jist of the whole situation...
<quote from above link>
and, *by opening a manufacturing plant on American soil and employing American workers, Progress Rail is also eligible, under "Buy America" guidelines,* <endquote>

Eligible for cheap money and concesssions form the US gov't and the state of Indiana who are desparate to create more jobs for the masses of unemployed.

So here is a typical scenario, where an American company uses federal/provincial or state funding to build their busines
here then depending on the state of the economy, make impersonal corporate decisions that affect everyone.
They don't care about the workers..they treat them just like disposable items within their business and if conditions
are more favourable for them back in the US..they retreat faster than their shrinking economy.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I was watching the news coming from Indiana...........

The lineup consisted of older people, housewives.........an assortment of people.

As I worked at EMD many years ago, I know what it was like in there.

A truly terrifying experience for someone not used to it.

Giant steel presses shake the bulding every time they come slamming down. Welding smoke pervades the atmosphere. Steel saws and grinders, hoists lifting entire locomotives, hand winding fiberglass taped coils around the armatures.......think old school, smoky, dirty, noisy, dangerous factories.

I wish the people well.......but I don't think they have any idea what kind of world they are entering.

Contrary to what a lot of people seem to believe.......work there isn't a commercial of a guy standing in a white smock with a clipboard.

Their turnover rate will be very high at the beginning. There were lots of people who couldn't handle the work or the environment.

After you get used to it......if you can last that long, it is then all about the money.

Shortly after I got hired, after leaving a management job, I told my wife I couldn't do it. It was only the "good money" that kept me there......and a fortunate change of jobs.

For 14 dollars an hour...........I would rather sell cellphones.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> Contrary to what a lot of people seem to believe.......work there isn't a commercial of a guy standing in a white smock with a clipboard.
> 
> Their turnover rate will be very high at the beginning. There were lots of people who couldn't handle the work or the environment.
> 
> ...


SAGS; since you have first hand experience in a noisy smoke stack industry, your opionion at least has some merit over those of some of my FFFF's....(online Financial Forum Fine Friends). They just haven't got a clue of what it's like..the noise, the dirty enviroment, breathing in that polluted air, dangerous equipment and presses everyone where you can lose your fingers very quickly, production bosses breathing down your neck, dirt on your hands, underneath your fingernails...bell rings for lunch, bell rings to return to work..etc.

They just side with the big fat corporate CATS (how about that for a pun?)....
and state their opinion that the hourly workers should have taken the 50% pay cut because they didn't have a masters degree in some useless field, therefore they were not deserving of those wages.

What is your opinion on that SAGS.?

...and my FFFF's please..lets hear it from somebody that knows what is going on in the worker's enviroment and minds and
what the working conditions are like...... while you sit in front of your computer,
polish your nails, sip your morning latte's and give out opinions, on what they should have done!

BTW..just heard on the TV news that MARK'S WORK WEARHOUSE has taken all the 'CATERPILLAR" label workboots
off their shelves to support the London Locomotive employees who are now out of a job. Not sure if this
is across Ontario or just London. Good for MARK's!


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Spidey, this is nothing new for CAT. They've done this sort of thing before. They were not negotiating in good faith. They knew no one would accept a 50% pay cut. That was their excuse to close the plant. That was their goal. They've achieved the goal and have a scapegoat (ie. the evil unions you are blaming) to boot. It was nothing more than a game on their part. Unions are protecting their own just like the companies do. If the company wanted it to work they wouldn't have offered something so absurd.



You are probably right. Despite my posts questioning the salary levels I have no respect for the way CAT treated their employees. And given the American situation, there is probably some element of bring the jobs "back" to the US. I just wonder though, if the union even tried to negotiate or did they say there was no negotiating such a ridiculous offer. For example, if the union had publicly offered a $25 compromise (much better than $18 but still significantly lower than $36), it would have thrown the ball back into CAT's court. I would think moving, retraining and retooling costs have to be tremendous. And I think that if such an offer was not considered by management, it would have cemented the union's moral high-ground and given CAT an even worse public image. Despite their statement of "final offer" I believe if such an offer were tabled, CAT management would have strong motivation to at least consider it. By not considering such a flexible approach and instead opting for tactics such as blocking the plant, the union probably walked right into management's hands.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Got to love mark's workware house-''good-will" they are using this (cat)shut-down as a tactic of promoting and getting more bodies in there stores,it's almost certian they sold little footware from cat....i like how there making "good"it's sneaky.

I wonder if marks would pull one of there big sales driver in the same situation.Something tells me there tune would be different.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I just don't see why CAT has any obligation to those workers who were laid off.

Why does any company have any obligation to any workers? They pay you a certain amount of money for a specific time period of work and that's it.

It works both ways - any employee and can quit and get a new job at any time.

From this thread, it appears that perhaps CAT bought the plant with the intention of shutting it down. What is wrong with doing that?

If the plant was profitable and/or has valuable assets - why didn't someone else buy it? Why did the former owners sell it? Why didn't the employees buy it?

Why is this any different than any other plant that gets shut down by a company?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> Perhaps I'm missing something, but I just don't see why CAT has any obligation to those workers who were laid off.


One worker on line mentioned he was given the boot after 23 years..(not sure
if he got any severance..doubt it)..but this is the way CAT treated everyone
regardless of how many years of service.



> Why does any company have any obligation to any workers? They pay you a certain amount of money for a specific time period of work and that's it.


Glad I never worked for you!!!! Just so you know..the workers have an
obligation to show up for work, put in a good days production and go
home without worrying about what's going to happen to the plant next day.
The company should have some obligation to those workers that worked there
for X years and made them profitable.



> It works both ways - any employee and can quit and get a new job at any time.


Sure..but it's never that "cut and dry" for a lot of the senior workers out there
with family obligations..btw.are you part of CAT management? You sound like
you are. 



> From this thread, it appears that perhaps CAT bought the plant with the intention of shutting it down. What is wrong with doing that?


Shutting down the plant is one thing..but giving the workers a break in doing
so is another..there was probably a more respectable way CAT could have
handled it and the workers could have been more receptive.



> If the plant was profitable and/or has valuable assets - why didn't someone else buy it? Why did the former owners sell it? Why didn't the employees buy it?


To buy a plant and very specific machinery to produce sub assemblies for
heavy construction equipment requires advance notice that the plant is
going to be closed in X months, a market evaluation for any prospective
sales to get business financing, and then agreement from CAT to be
able to produce the products under license....never mind trying to get
financing in today's economic downturn....but you obviously are aware
of all that?


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Carverman - thank you for keeping your answers nice and short for me. 



carverman said:


> One worker on line mentioned he was given the boot after 23 years..(not sure if he got any severance..doubt it)..but this is the way CAT treated everyone regardless of how many years of service.


The idea that workers with more seniority should be treated better than more junior employees is an entirely a union invention. I don't see the logic in this - if it's time to go, it's time to go.



carverman said:


> Glad I never worked for you!!!! Just so you know..the workers have an
> obligation to show up for work, put in a good days production and go
> home without worrying about what's going to happen to the plant next day.
> The company should have some obligation to those workers that worked there
> for X years and made them profitable.


I don't think this is realistic. I've been laid off in the past and it could happen again - perhaps tomorrow, perhaps this afternoon.

Sure, I'd love some sort of job security, but I don't have any and to spend energy lamenting the lack thereof in my job or anyone else's job is pointless.



carverman said:


> Sure..but it's never that "cut and dry" for a lot of the senior workers out there
> with family obligations..btw.are you part of CAT management? You sound like
> you are.


Nothing is ever 100% cut and dried. However, my premise stands that there is no obligation from either the company or the employee regarding future employment. 

No, I have nothing to do with CAT.



carverman said:


> Shutting down the plant is one thing..but giving the workers a break in doing
> so is another..there was probably a more respectable way CAT could have
> handled it and the workers could have been more receptive.


Given all the negative publicity around the closing, I think you are right.



carverman said:


> To buy a plant and very specific machinery to produce sub assemblies for
> heavy construction equipment requires advance notice that the plant is
> going to be closed in X months, a market evaluation for any prospective
> sales to get business financing, and then agreement from CAT to be
> ...


No - Why would I be aware of that?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> Given all the negative publicity around the closing, I think you are right.
> 
> No - Why would I be aware of that?


Because you seem to think that in Canada, and Ontario, the employees or
private "investors" can just take over a plant that is making specialized
equipment for a specialized application and just run with it as though
nothing happened.

First of all..you need investment capital..try getting that from the greedy
Canadian bankers these days!

Second of all you need a market for the products.

Third of all,* IF you intend to produce the same products/sub assemblies
as CAT in direct competition with them on products that have proprietary
design/applications..*.let's say I have some swamp land in Florida that
you may be interested in investing in.

And lets not forget the last thing...having some one with experience and
the BRAINS to make the operation viable when the provincial gov't justs
want to sit there with their fingers up their....well you can figure out the
last word.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

carverman said:


> It's easy to say from an "aimchair" position.
> 
> Try placing yourself in place of some of those workers that would have to sell their houses...in what could be
> now a depressed market in London, with all those layoffs, taking the kids out of school, moving away from a community where they know a lot of people/churches, bowling league etc..to move to yet an even more expensive real estate area
> ...



Good post carver. As usual, your FFFFs seem to think they've got it all figured out as they sit in their towers. They don't show any regard for the people who were caught up in this mess at all and seem to think google has all the answers. Perhaps a little more real life experience with the environments being discussed here and a little less moral judgement would be appropriate. It's called empathy.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

carverman said:


> Because you seem to think that in Canada, and Ontario, the employees or
> private "investors" can just take over a plant that is making specialized
> equipment for a specialized application and just run with it as though
> nothing happened.


I don't think that at all. However, there are some situations where this can happen and I was wondering if this particular plant fell into that category.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> I don't think that at all. However, there are some situations where this can happen and I was wondering if this particular plant fell into that category.


Here's an excerpt from online sources..

"Caterpillar subsidiary Progress Rail Services said the cost structure at the London plant was unsustainable, e*ven though Caterpillar last week reported a 58 per cent increase in its quarterly earnings with a record profit of nearly $5 billion*. [rndquote]

Do you smell something fishy going on in CAT/Progress Rail executive offices?


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

carverman said:


> Here's an excerpt from online sources..
> 
> "Caterpillar subsidiary Progress Rail Services said the cost structure at the London plant was unsustainable, e*ven though Caterpillar last week reported a 58 per cent increase in its quarterly earnings with a record profit of nearly $5 billion*. [rndquote]
> 
> Do you smell something fishy going on in CAT/Progress Rail executive offices?


I'd say no. CAT is a big company. I think it's normal for companies that have different areas of operation (ie many plants/products etc) to evaluate each area individually for profitability. 

The fact that the company might already be very profitable has no relevance when looking at any one part of the company.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

carverman I'd comment further but I think you have covered the issue well.

sags nice job describing the reality of work.

I do wonder about the age group of posters on this issue as the three of us are up there.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> I'd say no. CAT is a big company. I think it's normal for companies that have different areas of operation (ie many plants/products etc) to evaluate each area individually for profitability.
> 
> The fact that the company might already be very profitable has no relevance when looking at any one part of the company.


Each branch operates as a profit center, and so do individual depts. 
Ok..what we don't know is the bottom line of the London operation which looks like they made subasemblies for somewhere else.

Since we are NOT privy to the financial reports for the London operation, we can all make these "SWAG (scientific wildass guesses/armchair assumptions" that the London operation was not profitable..
but.... unless we get proof from someone on the inside..we will never know.
So my FFFFs that is a BIG ASSUMPTION...and you may have heard about "ASSUME"..it can make an ***-of U-and ME.

Discussing theoritical information is a waste of time. What we need to do is sympathsize with the workers..many of them long term and getting up there in years..some maybe close to retirement, and then getting the coupe de gras from CAT...just payroll numbers nothing else!


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

It's pretty clear from the published press releases in the US that as soon as the Muncie plant opened the company would have no need for the one in Canada. Unless you believe EMD was going to double its market share (from 30% to 60%) overnight. By some strange coincidence the new plant is expected to ultimately employ the same number of people they are laying off in Canada.

I'm not an expert on labour law, but I strongly suspect the company gained some financial advantage in termination benefits by maneuvering the union into rejecting a preposterous contract offer, rather then announcing a plant closure first and laying them off.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

As I mentioned McGuinty was asleep at the switch with Caterpillar...
here's the news item..

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...-london-caterpillar-plant-critics-charge?bn=1


and Harper too...

<from above link>
"The federal government is also under fire for the closure after Prime Minister Stephen Harper posed for photographs in the cab of a locomotive on the factory floor after granting Electro-Motive’s previous owners $5 million in tax breaks in 2008. <end of extraction>

So here it is..the tax breaks meant that the tax payers had to make up for the shortfall somewhere..so it's you and me that subsidized CAT in 2008 through tax concessions. Harper is doing a fine job of giving our tax dollars away with
nothing to show for it...now that the CAT is out of the bag.... (like my pun??)
Other US based companies may follow suit, since they (CAT) found a way to do it that doesn't cost them severance payments. ... P*ss off the unions, lock them out, give them a week to make up their minds and if not..close the
plant!


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## somecanuck (Dec 23, 2011)

A company's only obligations to workers are those spelled out by law and contracts. Unless Caterpillar is going to be sued for violating something or another, they've fulfilled their obligations.

Empathy for the workers is entirely separate from "obligations". It sucks to be certain, but the reality is that most people have jobs with multiple companies these days rather than a single company for 20+ years. There's always pain and cost to move around.


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

Tax breaks were not directly to EMD..... they were to companies buying the trains from them and also 2 years before the sale of the company to CAT, I doubt Harper foreseen the sale to CAT in 2008.....about the only valid arguement against the governments I've read in this thread was about the sale being a net value to Canada. Progress rail is a private company and is free to do what it needs to to generate profits for it's owners...they offered the Canadians the equivalent wages of what they were giving the people in Muncie... Turned out bad for us but good for Muncie don't forget half the assembly jobs in that plant were a result of cheaper labour here than in the states in the 90's and came at the cost of the la grange plant in the states.. the ebb and flow of business. the US economy is hurting, their people are poorer and willing to work for less...this is something everyone needs to realize when looking at their own current situations.


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

carverman said:


> Since we are NOT privy to the financial reports for the London operation, we can all make these "SWAG (scientific wildass guesses/armchair assumptions" that the London operation was not profitable..
> but.... unless we get proof from someone on the inside..we will never know.
> So my FFFFs that is a BIG ASSUMPTION...and you may have heard about "ASSUME"..it can make an ***-of U-and ME.
> 
> Discussing theoritical information is a waste of time. What we need to do is sympathsize with the workers..many of them long term and getting up there in years..some maybe close to retirement, and then getting the coupe de gras from CAT...just payroll numbers nothing else!


The assumptions work both ways. You're assuming (from your armchair) that the plant was profitable. Sure, we don't know either way, but quoting CAT's profitability figures is just completely misleading, biased and promoting an agenda.

It's like complaining that McDonalds closes down a failing franchise when the company is profitable. 

While I do sympathize with the workers, life is tough for more than just these 460+ people. It's unfortunate that they are out of work, but it's just as unfortunate for the 100s of thousands of other Canadians.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The plant has always been profitable, and from what I read they had a 100 million order book of locomotives to build.

CAT purchased the property to shut it down and eliminate their main competition. The offer they made to employees was one they knew would be rejected. They wouldn't negotiate on any of the terms.

Much of the news coverage, and comments to news articles, incorrectly state that it was a "union vs company" situation.

The "union" isn't an entity. It didn't lose it's job. The members of the union did.

According to government statistics, over 60% of all manufacturing losses in Ontario were for "non-union" employees, so I don't see how the "union vs company" argument holds up.

All decent paying jobs are under attack. Employers use the leverage they have to increase profits.

Our governments have given our futures away.

China has always had a closed door trade policy, US protectionism is underway as evidenced here, and by the time our Government wakes up and clues in.......it will be too late to do anything about it.

I would blame Harper, but he is just the latest in a long run of foolish leaders.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> The plant has always been profitable, and from what I read they had a 100 million order book of locomotives to build.
> 
> I would blame Harper, but he is just the latest in a long run of foolish leaders.


US Protectionism at work ("buy American). NAFTA is a joke then, because the US is calling the shots whenever it suits them. I suspect we will see more of this in the coming months-years as others follow suit. 

As far as the US worker willing to work for $15 an hour, that is their business,but why impose those kind of wage restrictions on the Canadain worker that has to pay higher income/payroll taxes to begin with, higher cost of goods, energy and everything else as a rule.

The armchair "company sympathizers camp" here are saying that the company can do whatever it wants to increase and maintain profits, and the worker is supposed to "suck it up" as a consequence. In reality we are all collective victims here, because slowly the manufacturing base in Ontario is shrinking and the "foolish leaders" can only stand by the wayside
and blame each other ...because in reality they can't stop the Americans from pulling out of Canada when it suits them.

Politicians are good at one thing, fooling the population into voting for them.
But when it comes to doing something, they argue like a bunch of schoolkids
in Parliament and very little actually gets done. They can't even run themselves, let along look after any business situations on the rocks. 

McGuinty is a lame duck, now more than he ever was..he got in with a one member majority this time
by the skin of his teeth..he's done the damage already to Ontario..there isn't much more he can do for the next 3 years except to hang on to his job..something denied to the London workers.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

carverman said:


> Politicians are good at one thing, fooling the population into voting for them.
> But when it comes to doing something, they argue like a bunch of schoolkids
> in Parliament and very little actually gets done. They can't even run themselves, let along look after any business situations on the rocks.


I agree that CAT management has behaved ruthlessly. And I disagree with those who seem to say that only the bottom line matters and that we should treat human beings in the same manner that we would treat any other business expense. But, what would be your solution? Tear up NAFTA? Have politicians somehow force companies to remain in our country? How would you propose that be done? 

Here is Andrew Coyne's take:



> It’s a compelling story — foreigners buy “our” plant, steal “our” technology, and all with our money! Except:
> 
> - EMD is not a Canadian company, and never was. Caterpillar bought it from a pair of American private equity firms in 2010; they bought it from General Motors in 2005, who bought it from its Ohio-based founders in 1930. Since 1935 it has been headquartered in La Grange, Illinois. The London branch plant was opened in 1950.
> 
> ...


http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/02/06/caterpillar-electro-motive-diesel/


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Spidey said:


> I agree that CAT management has behaved ruthlessly. And I disagree with those who seem to say that only the bottom line matters and that we should treat human beings in the same manner that we would treat any other business expense. But, what would be your solution? Tear up NAFTA? Have politicians somehow force companies to remain in our country? How would you propose that be done?


NAFTA was never good for Canada, because as we have experinced, the Americans call the shots..we just go along with whatever they decide, because we are dependent on exports to the US and scared of offending them. 

There are probably as many opinions on this story as there are workers out of a job
I don't take the armchair analysts's opinion carte blanche because these are just opinions, like mine.

IMO, CAT handled this very badly from a PR POV. Even if their corporate decision was to mothball the plant and retreat to Muncie, they could have handled it differently with the unions since they HAVE BEEN MAKING A PROFIT
(at least up to now), so money wasn't the issue.

Solution would be to put in laws to prevent this kind of thing from happening without allowing the workers in the American plant on Canadian soil from just locking the doors and having the moving trucks back up to the loading docks. If they want to leave..fine..we won't stop them..ut there has to be a price to pay, if the company is still viable. They leave ALL
equipment and the plant so it can be sold and the money distrubuted to the workers that made it run.

Too much of this Americanized BS capitalist thinking where NOTHING ELSE MATTERS except PROFITS and divends to shareholders, fat corporate expense accounts and multimillion dollar salaries..while the hourly worker barely gets
by on that $30 an hourm minust 40% taxes, UI, CPP, HST, property taxes, other taxes and more taxes.

This is going to kill Ontario from the job creation mandate that McGuinty was touting about in the last election and
when he forced the HST on everyone. 

McGuinty the tax man is only good at one thing..raising taxes ..he has no solutions and never will. 
Harper is busy with his junkets to China to sell BIG OIL to the Chinese. 

The real losers are the lunch pail sector of our society!


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## HowIsMyFinancial (May 18, 2011)

carverman said:


> *In a global economy such as we have now*,


This is what many people often forget i think.
You may bicker back and forth about unions, corporations greed, etc

but at the end of the day, people need to realize the world is A LOT more open now than decades ago, no matter how you hate it, we DO compete with offshore workers and factories

The question is how do we stay competitive?

Unions with crazy sick days benefits, pensions and all kind of perks dont seem to be the answer to me.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

HowIsMyFinancial said:


> This is what many people often forget i think.
> You may bicker back and forth about unions, corporations greed, etc
> 
> but at the end of the day, people need to realize the world is A LOT more open now than decades ago, no matter how you hate it, we DO compete with offshore workers and factories
> ...



The cost of oil will force that upon us. I read a book called "Why Your world is about to become a lot smaller". 
In it, the writer details what will happen when the world price of oil hits triple digits (over $100 a barrel). 

http://www.jeffrubinssmallerworld.com/about-the-book/

The world is based on an oil economy. That's fine as there is ample supply right now and no middle east war to drive
up prioes (yet), shipping goods and commodities from offshore manufacturing plants that have cheaper labour. 
But when the price of oil starts going up..even the getting the finished products from Korea/China/Japan is going to become
more expensive. 
We see the current price reflected in gasoline which is approching $5 a gallon or more here now..wait till it hits $6,$7 or even more. 

The solution is to make the goods where the markets are..and that is back here in Canada where the labour force is. 

The problem is that everything has gone up so much that the average hourly worker now needs $25 an hour to survive. 

We cannot compete with the Chinese, who work for a few dollars a day and are used to rice and veggies 3 times a day..but we can (if we wish to lower our lifestyles a bit), be able to become reasonably self sufficient, but the gov'ts have to have the right people in place to encourage that kind of culture change...so far we haven't got the right people..and until we do..the economy will continue to shrink with foreign nationals (manufacturing at least), pulling out, one by one.


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## Jon202 (Apr 14, 2009)

Square Root said:


> I feel sorry for these workers but if it can be done cheaper somewhere else? The alternative is to build high tariff walls and the rest of us can subsidize these workers who incidently were very well paid in comparison to other working Canadians. Are Canadians inherently more worthy to earn a living than others such as Chinese or Indians or Americans? Doubt it.


Ask the American farmers who grow corn or sugar cane or any other subsidized crop if they feel they are more worthy than another worker.

American industries will bully how ever they see fit and get what they want.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

carverman said:


> Solution would be to put in laws to prevent this kind of thing from happening without allowing the workers in the American plant on Canadian soil from just locking the doors and having the moving trucks back up to the loading docks. If they want to leave..fine..we won't stop them..ut there has to be a price to pay, if the company is still viable. They leave ALL
> equipment and the plant so it can be sold and the money distrubuted to the workers that made it run.



There is simply no reasonable mechanism to require a foreign operator to remain in business in our country and to also force them to pay the wages we think ought to be paid. The only option would be for the government to take control of the company - something that would blacklist us our major trading partners and put a chill on future investment prospects. Employing such practices would put us in the company of countries such as Zimbabwe.


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## buaya (Jan 7, 2011)

We are always comparing our wages with those of China etc. That is not a good comparison because you are comparing different society, cultures, lifestyle etc.
The pay of those workers in relative terms are the same as what we pay our factory workers. Because of their lifestyle, cost of living etc, the wages they made allow them to live just like workers here making $20 per hour.
We always talk about these workers living in company housing etc. Think of this. If you go from Newfoundland and move to Alberta for a job. The company provides you a competitive rate but they also provide you with housing, meals, transportation to work etc. You do not have to worry about housing costs etc.
I know that this is maybe socialism but in a country like China where you have migrant workers from the countryside to the Industrial areas of Shenzhen, companies have to be creative to attract their workers. These companies, compete with each other for the best workers and workers, like everywhere in the world do go to the best companies to work for.

I know that among my children and their friends, most of them, upon graduating are all making decent wages. They have started to buy houses (even in this inflated housing market). Most of them are in the IT and were all headhunted and now works in Waterloo, Seattle, Silicon Valley etc.
There will always be good paying jobs if you plan your education. 
In Canada, jobs in the Auto and Heavy Industries like those in this CAT plant may be gone, but days of fathers bringing their offsprings into these unionized plants without even them graduating from High School and making $20+ and more is over.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Spidey said:


> There is simply no reasonable mechanism to require a foreign operator to remain in business in our country and to* also force them to pay the wages we think ought to be paid. * The only option would be for the government to take control of the company - something that would blacklist us our major trading partners and put a chill on future investment prospects. Employing such practices would put us in the company of countries such as Zimbabwe.


c'mon now...forcing the foreign nationals to pay wages we ought to think we should be paid? 
Where did you come up with that idea? 

Goods and commodities and services are much higher in this country than in the US..if they weren't why do people cross the border to buy appliances, vehicles and other goods and bring them back and use them here when they could be buying the vehickes and goods at much higher prices here?

Small minded "tinkin" comrade. 

Having the gov't get into business with you i*s the worst thing that can happen to the business* because:
1. Gov't employees are not (generally) accountable for anything. 
2. Gov't managers are always qualified for what they do, let along try to run business on a profit margin.
3. Gov't employees work 8-5 and then rush home. They are not interested in staying on to resolve problems..because the gov't will still be there next day and they are guaranteed a paycheck in any case..even if they screw up.

A classic example of having the Gov't as your partner is the Avro Arrow.
Dief the chief screwed the fighter aircraft industry big time and we haven't had one since the late 50s as a result.

No, one should never never go into partnership with the gov't. They don't always know they do..and all they can do is just blame each other when things go wrong.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

buaya said:


> I know that this is maybe socialism but in a country like China where you have migrant workers from the countryside to the Industrial areas of Shenzhen, companies have to be creative to attract their workers. These companies, compete with each other for the best workers and workers, like everywhere in the world do go to the best companies to work for.


You cannot compare the Chinese workers wages to what is necessary HERE for a decent wage to survive on a middle income and be able to pay all the bills necessary. The lifestyle there is completely different and foreign to our lifestyles.
If you want to eat KD and a bowl of rice with a few greens tossed in for nuitrition and bicycle to work every day, you may be able to swing it..but not in Canada..the costs have risen here beyond what one can sustain themselves on MINIMUM Wage, never mind $15 an hour which is only around $5 above minimum wage and thats before taxes and payroll 
deductions. 



> There will always be good paying jobs if you plan your education.
> In Canada, jobs in the Auto and Heavy Industries like those in this CAT plant may be gone, but days of fathers bringing their offsprings into these unionized plants without even them graduating from High School and making $20+ and more is over.


Sure there will be better paying jobs if you have the education. That is not what this thread is about. We are discussing union smoke stack jobs..that up until last month were paying around $30 an hour. These jobs except for mining or drilling for oil/nat gas are disappearing faster than the spots on a hyena. 

No, we can't stop the Americans from pulling out of here with their heavy industry..so everyone has to realize that big changes are starting to take place which will affect everyone..not just the lunch pail crowd!


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

carverman said:


> c'mon now...forcing the foreign nationals to pay wages we ought to think we should be paid?
> Where did you come up with that idea?


Well you did say this:



> If they want to leave..fine..we won't stop them..ut there has to be a price to pay, if the company is still viable. They leave ALL
> equipment and the plant so it can be sold and the money distrubuted to the workers that made it run.


I'm just saying we simply can't confiscate equipment from a company that wants to leave over a wage dispute with their workers, even if we feel that those wage requests are unfair. Such practices of confiscating company property are just not acceptable in free-market countries and would effectively be saying, "Either you pay the wage-rate demanded or we confiscate your equipment". Would it not?

By the way, my wife works for the government and she is very: accountable, qualified, and often works longer than her 8 hours without compensation. All that being said, I agree with you that the government shouldn't run most businesses.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Spidey said:


> > I'm just saying we simply can't confiscate equipment from a company that wants to leave over a wage dispute with their workers, even if we feel that those wage requests are unfair. Such practices of confiscating company property are just not acceptable in free-market countries and would effectively be saying, "Either you pay the wage-rate demanded or we confiscate your equipment". Would it not?
> 
> 
> Well not exactly confiscate..they would just take the union or the gov't to court and win in any case.
> ...


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