# Vancouver and Richmond is Crazy



## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Vancouver and Richmond real estate is now possibly moving into the buy if you can but not for the normal people of the country city. They are becoming world cities and no longer tied to buyers from Canada. 

My house in Richmond which will be thrown in the ditch when someone buys it and it is now worth over 1 million dollars and I could sell it in a week easy. No one from Canada unless you are rich could buy this house. You might think wow you hit the jackpot but I don't feel that way. I look around Richmond and there is hardly anything available where we want to live and no one is selling.

Many will say the bottom will fall out and blah blah, but so what most own with real money and don't care. For me I think a price drop will be good so when I sell I can get what I want. My reasons are because I have land in the best area of Richmond I will catch a bid and then could buy something else. Maybe the new mortgage rules will feed through enough to swing things my way.

Finally if you think I am crazy and take the money then just look at prices last year. Last year I could get $750,000 for my house and if I rented I would be completely screwed.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I live in Toronto and I still get what you're saying Dogcom. I paid $156,000 for my house 13 years ago and a neighbor just up the street got $380,000 for a 2 bedroom with a one bedroom apartment downstairs pretty similar to mine in every respect. People around here are trying to buy two houses together so they can build townhouses. I got 60X120 and townhouses all around. 

I thought $156,000 was a lot of money for this house and now it's $380,000 frankly it's not that great. Good enough for me and mine but far from palatial. If my house was a million bucks my brain would probably turn to mush or something. 

People are definitely crazy... but then again you see people spend $4000 on a designer purse.


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## kubatron (Jan 17, 2011)

well no kidding you were able to pay off your mortgage so fast, $156,000 for a house? I paid off $88,000 of our mortgage in 2.2 years so don't feel so bad anymore (that being said we bought 2.2 years ago and still have a ways to go BUT we bought more than needed because we're not moving here until death does us part or some other catastrophe)

typically the cycle is 3-4 homes per life - starter/upgrade/big/retirement, no?

my plan was starter/last


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

wow, $156,000 to $380,000. that is not even a 7.1% annual yield....

this is exactly why i know my house is a home, not an investment.

mine too was bought as a starter/last...


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

sprocket1200 said:


> wow, $156,000 to $380,000. that is not even a 7.1% annual yield....
> 
> this is exactly why i know my house is a home, not an investment.
> 
> mine too was bought as a starter/last...


Don't forget that she didn't have to pay rent during this time.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The value of foregone rent minus repairs, maintenance and taxes probably adds 3 or four points to that return.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I am 43 years old and done starter /upgrade /big .We could not afford the home we wanted 20 years ago or even 10 years ago .Now I am very happy with the home we have and we also have a cottage /Boat.We could have been mortgage free but we decided we wanted to have a cottage for summers ,We know we will gain on the cottage over the years because they cannot make any new waterfront


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

My house since I bought it in 1991 has returned roughly 14% year over year. I don't think I would be better off if I gambled anywhere along the way and bought stocks or whatever. Berubeland made 7.1% and had a place to live for many years and I don't think all considered she would have done any better buying mutual funds that somebody would have sold her back in the day.

Having said that I have rules for my principal residence.
1. It is a home first and an investment second
2. My home price doesn't matter except when I retire and sell for some reason 
3. I always own and will not rent 
4. Lots of fees buying and selling so try not to do it unless you have to 
5. Location matters a lot so I won't move unless it is the right thing to do 

Over the years number 1 has saved me from doing stupid things and then not being able to get back in the market. Number 2 has kept me from seeing the dollar signs many get seduced into here and elsewhere. Number 3 is because I don't like spending money I can't get a return on. I have a small mortgage but at least I can still gain equity even if the price of my home doesn't go up. Number 4 you have real estate fees, lawyer fees, moving expenses and in BC you pay 2% on the first $100,000 and 1% on the rest when you buy. On location it has saved me horrible transportation expenses and I live in a great and safe area.

Over the years many people in my area have sold and moved to cheaper worse locations and put money in their pocket and have got a nicer home. All have regretted it and can never move back to the life they had in my area.


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## PoorPablo83 (Feb 8, 2010)

I hear you dogcom. I'm just across the water in Victoria. I'm currently looking for my first "starter" condo (hopefully a 2 bed 2 bath so I can rent the other room). Looking for old buildings (1970's - 80's era), ground floor, in decent, but not good areas, I'm hard pressed to find something under $260,000. The cheapest of cheap houses are starting at 550,000, and they're flying off the shelf so fast that you can't even ask for the condition of an inspection because someone else will just offer to buy it without one! crazy!

My parents bought their big house house in 2000 (5 bed, 3 bath) in a nice area for 290,000. It's now creeping up on a million.

A correction can't come soon enough for me...


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I suppose we should have added Victoria to the title as well. 

Your so right poorpablo83 in fact I read in the paper today that one house had 49 offers and 700 visitors to the first open house and it sold for $300,000 over the asking price of $798,000 on Dec. 6. This is happening all over Richmond and elsewhere. I got the real estate paper the other day and it had the fewest pages I had ever seen , there is absolutely nothing for sale.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It all sounds like a big housing bubble.............and we know how they end.


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## MikeT (Feb 16, 2010)

The simple, convenient conclusion that a given level of prices is not too high…


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

It sounds like a housing bubble, but then again this has been going on for decades. It could drop hard but no one knows because we might be talking about Vancouver as a city like Hong Kong or London or something and no longer like a Canadian city. 

If it does drop it may give me the opportunity to sell and buy without all the competition. And if I lived out east and saw an opportunity to buy here I would do it because I don't think you would get another chance like that for a very long time. If you look at China and so on that is going to grow in the future where do you think these people would want to live in Canada if they have the choice.

I should also mention that land is just not available in the desirable locations of Richmond or Vancouver unless you knock stuff down so it has to go for a premium.


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## MikeT (Feb 16, 2010)

It's a new era! Things are different this time! No more land!


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## osc (Oct 17, 2009)

dogcom said:


> It sounds like a housing bubble, but then again this has been going on for decades. It could drop hard but no one knows because we might be talking about Vancouver as a city like Hong Kong or London or something and no longer like a Canadian city.


What economy or financial services has Vancouver to compare to those? Salary levels are very low in Vancouver compared to other high priced cities, like London, New York or San Francisco. It's all speculation and money sheltering. 
Vancouver is more like Seattle or Portland, and the prices in those cities are one third of Vancouver's prices.


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## canabiz (Apr 4, 2009)

I wonder how much of this can be attributed to the rich Asian/Chinese immigrants (from Hong Kong or mainland China).

I know Vancouver and B.C. in general are desirable location for them, with a strong Asian population and proximity to Asia. They are also known to be superstitious and from what I understand Richmond rhymes with *Rich man* and that is another factor that they readily consider.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If the average price for a home in Canada is 340,000, that amount of money would put most Canadians into a much nicer than "average" home, but in Vancouver would probably buy a shanty.

That's why averages don't mean much, I guess.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Mike T. said "It's a new era! Things are different this time! No more land!"

In cities where people want to live it would be different if land was easy to find.

Canabiz and maybe berubeland seem to have an idea of what we are facing out here but many of the people back east don't seem to have much of an idea. In fact my friend was in a Richmond hotel yesterday and saw a real estate agent walk in talk to a Chinese guest who then handed him a cheque for 1.5 million for a house in Richmond. You also have to remember that well over half the people in Richmond are asian and climbing. I have also seen groups of asians on real estate tours coming to look at real estate.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I think part of the continuing issue with Asian investors gladly partly with large amounts of money is that unfortunately they see it within the context of where they come from, Hong Kong has the highest real estate prices in the world. 

This is kind of like Canadians that go to the USA and see houses that are half or less then they would pay here. My friend for instance went to Florida, and bought a house for $50,000 she paid about $10,000 over market because within that market that's the going price. She didn't really care because as a Torontoninan the price just seemed so cheap. I'm just kind of assuming that the same phenomenon affects the Asian Investors the're coming from some of the highest real estate prices in the world so 1,5 million for a house is cheap for them. 

Unfortunately there is no way that the local economy can support those prices but Vancouver real estate is not limited to the local economy. It's difficult to estimate if it when it will end.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Exactly berubeland this has gone on for decades, making normal decisions very difficult to make. But tell me this berubeland, if real estate in Vancouver or Richmond does correct hard will you do like many very smart people did in Toronto in 1989 and get it while you can. I think you are a very smart person and if you see the opportunity you will take full advantage of the once in a lifetime opportunity. Trust me nobody except some Canadians wants to live anywhere else in Canada but the west coast or BC if they get the right chance. 

Sure I have talked to people from other parts of Canada that say Vancouver is colder then minus 30 or whatever because it is damp. So I asked these idiots why they are not wearing a parka and so on to compensate for it. They say because they would be to hot, so I say sure but that is what you would wear at minus 30.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I am very lucky that my parents own a home in White Rock since the 1960's and my husband has many relatives in BC.I honestly never think about owning property in BC until I went to Kelowna and Vancouver in October and it was 25 degrees .Being in Kelowna it could have very well been Italy or the South of France.I thought about it but know I will never buy out there .
With the Asian influence in prices I really don't see much of a bubble bursting out there.


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## MikeT (Feb 16, 2010)

Dogcom, please say it: "it's a new era!" "traditional valuations of property don't apply anymore to Vancouver real estate!". "It's a new era!". "things are different now!". "Vancouver is different than anywhere else!". "it's a new era!". "prices are not too high!". "you have to value properties differently in Vancouver now because it's a new era!". "traditional valuations no longer make sense in Vancouver because it is different!". "it's a new era!".


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

dogcom said:


> Exactly berubeland this has gone on for decades, making normal decisions very difficult to make. But tell me this berubeland, if real estate in Vancouver or Richmond does correct hard will you do like many very smart people did in Toronto in 1989 and get it while you can. I think you are a very smart person and if you see the opportunity you will take full advantage of the once in a lifetime opportunity. Trust me nobody except some Canadians wants to live anywhere else in Canada but the west coast or BC if they get the right chance.
> 
> Sure I have talked to people from other parts of Canada that say Vancouver is colder then minus 30 or whatever because it is damp. So I asked these idiots why they are not wearing a parka and so on to compensate for it. They say because they would be to hot, so I say sure but that is what you would wear at minus 30.


Problem is, there's a little more than the "price" that makes you pick up and move to another location. Things like jobs and family would too hard to leave, just because the price was right.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Your right jungle it is important to have a job and family nearby. For you guys out east I am thinking that if we did get a once in a generation crash that allows you to buy in a good location where rent easily covers mortgage that would be a great investment. I don't think any regular stock investments will equal an opportunity like that.

In fact at some point you may want to live out here and if you did get that great chance your foot would be in the door for you to take it whenever you wanted to.

MikeT I never say we are in a new era and yes prices could crash as I have mentioned many times. But with over half the population being Asians we are for sure a different city just like Montreal, then the rest of Canada. We are also a port city that Alberta and Saskatchewan totally depend on to get their goods to Asian markets. When our longshoremen go on strike Alberta is on the phone right away telling us and pleading us to get them back to work.


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## MikeT (Feb 16, 2010)

Yeah!! It's waay different now. Therefore real estate is valued way differently now. You can't compare Vancouver to other cities. It's completely different now. It's a new era!!!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

My sister in law lives at the end of some big lake near Vernon, BC.

From the pictures, it looks like a beautiful place to live. They inherited the property from his father who owned it for 50 years.

They have a 30 foot boat tied up to the dock at their property that they use for weekend getaways, so it must be one big lake.

Gotta visit BC someday, to see what all the fuss is about.


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

Four Pillars said:


> Don't forget that she didn't have to pay rent during this time.


oh jeez, let;s just forget to include repairs, insurance, maintenance, property tax as well then....these items will easily add up to 5% or more....

it is NOT an investment people, you really think you are gaining on any one relatively when they all have houses too? even when you retire, you need somewhere to live...


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

sags said:


> My sister in law lives at the end of some big lake near Vernon, BC.
> 
> From the pictures, it looks like a beautiful place to live. ...


There are two: Kalamalka which is the prettiest and Okanangan which is the biggest. Lots of people live there. The ones who retired to Kelowna now face pollution and traffic jams. Many people go there with the idea that it is a year-round vacation spot. But unless you remain an avid skiier, the winter is long and dull.

Parksville on the Island also has lots of retirees from the East. It is the only place to retire that offers health insurance and mild temperatures year round. The east side of the Island gets less rain than the west side of either the Island or the mainland. White Rock is also drier than Vancouver and is a realistic alternative when work is no longer required.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

Take your choice, Tsunami or Earthquake, either way, B.C will get a wake up call from Mother Nature.

Pretty scenery aside, I think Southern Ontario and Eastern Townships offer as much, or more, than B.C.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

kcowan said:


> Parksville on the Island also has lots of retirees from the East. It is the only place to retire that offers health insurance and mild temperatures year round. The east side of the Island gets less rain than the west side of either the Island or the mainland. White Rock is also drier than Vancouver and is a realistic alternative when work is no longer required.


 I live just north of Parksville on a small Island. Earthquake, maybe, but Tsunami... probably not. Unless an EQ hits inside Vancouver Island (the Straight of Georgia) which is highly unlikely, any Tsunami that hits will effect the outside Coast of VI which is very sparsely populated.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

I'm Howard said:


> Pretty scenery aside, I think Southern Ontario and Eastern Townships offer as much, or more, than B.C.


If you like cold winters, biting insects, scenery that is flat as piss on a plate, and can stand living away from the ocean... go for it.


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

steve41 said:


> If you like cold winters, biting insects, scenery that is flat as piss on a plate, and can stand living away from the ocean... go for it.


Steve, you are so wrong, Ontario is the best place to live, followed by Whiterock. everyone should move there and tell all their friends how good it is and encourage them to move there as well.

PS. The code is NOT to tell people what it is like here. Here is your statement if asked. "it rains all the time, especially in the summer. there are huge spiders and slimy slugs everywhere. the earthquake will hit very soon, and the tsunami that follows will drown anyone that survives. once this happens property values will plummet and we will be cut off from the rest of the world.

please repeat this in the mirror each morning until you can say it in your sleep. enjoy your local wine tonight...


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

Doh! (hitting forehead with fist) Sorry.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

You ain't convincing me, like all BC'rs you go off with this attitude, how could you live in TO when you could live in Vancouver.???

Easy, TO is a real city with an infrastructure that works, take away the scenery from Vancouver and it is probably the least interesting major city in Canada.

I guess it all depends wether you want to be in the centre of the Universe, or on the edge of it watching the action.??

You forgot to mention East Van and the panhandlers?

Halifax is one of the nicest and least appreciated cities in Canada.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

I'm Howard said:


> You forgot to mention East Van and the panhandlers?


 Guess where those panhandlers come from? Hint... stick your head out the window if you are in TO, WPG, MTRL... and ask yourself if you would rather be panhandling there or in Vancouver. If there was a fence at the Alberta border, BC would have zero pandlers.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

Ralph Klein, again?


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## MikeT (Feb 16, 2010)

East van is quite large and most people mistakenly use east van when they mean the downtown eastside.

Most of the panhandling is actually west of main street down there anyways. 

Two different areas all together.


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## lister (Apr 3, 2009)

steve41 said:


> If you like cold winters, biting insects, scenery that is flat as piss on a plate, and can stand living away from the ocean... go for it.


I'm born and raised in Toronto. Currently live and work downtown. I like it here. Things work okay here, it's not perfect, don't think anywhere is. Summers are great. Not a big problem with biting insects. Some mountain scenery would be nice but ah well. Lake Ontario serves as an okay substitute for the ocean. Winters are okay, probably the second best area for mild-ish winters behind the west coast. Of the major Canadian cities, I've visited Montreal numerous times, Ottawa twice, Calgary once and Vancouver three times.

Other than having to deal with the French language Montreal is great in the summer and brutal in the winter. Ottawa sucks. So does Calgary. Vancouver is great. I've been there in the summer and the winter. I've lucked out weather-wise each visit. Vancouver is the only other city in Canada I could see myself living in besides Toronto (just need to find a way to afford a condo downtown.) I don't recall seeing or hearing anything negative said about Vancouver by Torontonians beyond the rain and insane real estate prices so I've never understood the hate you guys have for us here. I got to overhear that during the last visit to Vancouver while in a pub. A curmudgeon was going on about his hate of Toronto and Ontario and when the server mentioned he was from Waterloo, oh boy! And of course there was some Toronto Maple Leafs hate in there too. Sad guy, such a waste of energy he expends on that stuff.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Truth be told I come from Temagami, a northern Ontario town which borders on a lake that forbids lake shore development, islands on that lake sell for lots of dough if you can get one. Most of them are owned by rich Americans that inherited them. 

Heaven to me is to be pretty damn far from your neighbor, a couple miles will do it, on the side of a lake where you can wander off in the summer time to have a swim in the cool clean crystal clear water. If you're feeling ambitious, you can put a mask and snorkel on and paddle your way around the shore looking at the rock bass. First put on sun screen lol. 

Until the plague comes the cities will always be too crowded for my liking. 

http://www.fotopedia.com/wiki/Lake_Temagami


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

East Van does suck but every city has parts that suck.

Lister your right out west Alberta included we do like to poke fun at Toronto. I haven't been there but I heard the summers are unbearably hot and humid. So I suppose in the summer you pray for winter and in the winter you pray for summer.

Out west if you want to live in a great area try the Kootenays or the Shuswap area. I don't think there are many areas out east that can compare to that. Also I wonder why people out east have to own cottages. In BC you can go any direction East, West, South or North including the US and enjoy mountains, lakes, rivers, the ocean and so on, without ever owning a cottage.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

dogcom said:


> East Van does suck but every city has parts that suck.


 Where the heck do you get that? East Van is where all the young professional families are flocking to. You should see the prices. There are some lovely neighbourhoods in East Van. "East Van sucks" is so 90s.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I don't spend much time in East Van but I guess there are some good areas there. I of course much prefer the side west of Granville street but you really need to be rich to live there.


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## MikeT (Feb 16, 2010)

Most of East van is far more expensive than Richmond. You're thinking of the downtown eastside and maybe strathcona. That's a tiny section of east van, and some of it (again) is technically west of main street making it not east van.


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## lister (Apr 3, 2009)

dogcom said:


> Lister your right out west Alberta included we do like to poke fun at Toronto. I haven't been there but I heard the summers are unbearably hot and humid. So I suppose in the summer you pray for winter and in the winter you pray for summer.


Actually the summers here are nice (24-30C) and there's usually only a couple of hot & humid spells that last a week or so each. I'd prefer them to last longer but whatever. There was one summer a few years ago where we didn't even get a hot & humid stretch. Very disappointing. I hate winter so I'm never hoping for it at all. After experiencing Taiwan in May which was nasty hot & humid even in the evenings (and soon will visit in July which will be even worse) not to mention the bad air quality, Toronto's summers are easy.

If you haven't been for a visit yet, you should. Lots to do here. People are usually friendly. Fairly easy to get around by public transit and if you're staying downtown you don't even need transit as it's quite walkable.


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

every one, PLEASE move to Toronto. it is a GREAT city.

Steve, back me up here buddy!


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

Ontario offers diversity in both geography and people.

Largest Island with Manitoulin, longest beach with Wasaga, Blue ain't Whistler but it's OK for 95% of skiiiers and an easy drive, the Muskoka's, Stratford, Niagra Falls, Ottawa, Kingston.

I have spent almost forty years travelling this great Nation, if I did not live in Ontario, the Easten Townships are phenomenal, and despite what the PQ have done, Montreal is still fun and interesting.

Toronto is New York organised by the Swiss.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

sprocket1200 said:


> every one, PLEASE move to Toronto. it is a GREAT city.
> 
> Steve, back me up here buddy!


Unfortunately, I have re in westvan and waterfront on hornby island. An exodous from here might adversely effect the fambly forchoon. MIL's house sold on the west side for 1.4Mil... although it was a tear down.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

dogcom said:


> Also I wonder why people out east have to own cottages. ...


We escaped to our cottage on Georgian Bay to get away from the heat and overcrowding in Toronto, every weekend from May to October and for 3-5 weeks in the summer. We never used the place in the winter because it resembled the surface of the moon! Ice piled 8 feet high and howling winds.



lister said:


> Actually the summers here are nice (24-30C) and there's usually only a couple of hot & humid spells that last a week or so each. I'd prefer them to last longer but whatever. ...


Yes summers in the city are fine, especially in The Beach where my son owns a house (although he escapes to his cottage most weekends).

One or two hot humid spells for a week? Maybe in the 70s! Now they look for one or two breaks from the humidity.


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## atrp2biz (Sep 22, 2010)

What about Calgary? You're in the mountains within an hour or so. No real body of water though (I don't think the Bow counts). Winters aren't that bad (just my initial take from looking at travel weather in the elevator). Summers are mild. Tell me it's a nice place to live!

BTW, wife and I have decided to rent for the first year or so--putting off house purchase to get a better feel for the city.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I think the right answer is to embrace the lifestyle most appropriate for the city you choose. If you are into hiking, skiing and fishing/canoeing in mountain lakes, then Calgary makes sense.


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

stuck in traffic in your car is a lifestyle??? nice!

please tell me it is not a 'small' car, hehe


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