# If you have experience with Fireplace



## 1980z28 (Mar 4, 2010)

Starting the new build of house,Well the last part of the build in 10 weeks

I will install a fireplace,have 3 choices,propane,wood and pellets

House 1200 sqft,one floor

House heated with electricity @ 11 cents/kw,no AC as will not be needed

I have a 100 acres of trees to cut if I decide to(it will keep me busy for sure)

House is 2x6 frame with heel truss plus thermal break,so should be easy to heat

I have used natural gas fireplace many time,no natural gas where I am building


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Do you want it for heat or decoration?

To me, nothing compares to a real wood fire, but I don't use it to heat my place. In fact, fireplaces have been proven to suck heat from the far points of a house and make them cooler.

I don't like gas fireplaces as they seem more decoration than a fire, and the heat and experience isn't as good.

I hear pellets are a good way to heat, but again, it's not a fire. If you get pellets, why not use a stove instead of a fireplace.

Also, what kind of trees do you have? Poplar doesn't burn the same as birch which is different from spruce...etc.


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## Islenska (May 4, 2011)

sounds like a great spot 1980 !

I would skip wood, can't beat the cozy of burning it but it wanes and is dirty, you lose the unique effect down the road.

Here in Northern Mb, wood burning was huge say 80/90'sand now petered way down, people just tired of it I guess.

Anyway good luck, country living so unique.................


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

I have heated with wood in the past. It is better than nothing if your time is of no value. Or if you like cutting wood, splitting wood, stacking wood, hauling wood, burning wood, disposing of the ashes, and cleaning stoves and chimneys. I wouldn't do it anymore if I had any other choice. But I must admit you will never lack for exercise or something to do.

At present I have a pellet stove which is easier and more convenient but if I could get rid of it I would.

Check into propane. It is more expensive than town gas but cheaper than it used to be. Depending where you are it is probably cheaper than oil, electric or pellets. You have to figure the difference in BTU between oil and propane. There are web sites that will calculate relative cost for you. I would take propane if it is anywhere near competitive in price.

I will say if you live in the country it is a good idea to have a wood stove and plenty of firewood in case of a power failure or blizzard. If you have a snug house, plenty of wood, food in the pantry, and a hand pump for the well then a blizzard is a pillow fight. You can just stay inside and play Parcheesi until it blows over. The people you hear about running off the road and freezing to death are those who were not prepared and had to choose between starving and freezing in the dark with their families or making a desperate run for town in a car with bald tires and 1/4 tank of gas. So be prepared and smile at the weather reports. Like the virtuous woman in the Bible who feareth not the snow because her household is clothed in scarlet. I guess they wore red woolen long johns back in Bible days.


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## 1980z28 (Mar 4, 2010)

Because the house is only 1200 ft

Wood my get to hot for a small house that will be very well insulated 

So wood is of the list

Maybe pellet is good as there is no chimney ,,,can get a small one


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

for what it's worth, I've had experience with all 3. My vote would be propane.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

There is talk of banning wood fireplaces for environmental issues as well in a lot of places.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Just for decor..........I would go for the propane fireplace.

We used to have a natural gas fireplace that didn't require hydro to run. It had a big round front and a grate on the top for the hot air to rise. It was rated as a furnace and really threw out the heat.

I think you could probably get a similar one that ran propane, which would provide heat if the hydro went out.

The downside of course is you would need a big propane storage tank.

Another option is a large outdoor diesel generator hooked into the hydro. It would provide heat and lights in an outage.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I will say if you live in the country it is a good idea to have a wood stove and plenty of firewood in case of a power failure or blizzard. If you have a snug house, plenty of wood, food in the pantry, and a hand pump for the well then a blizzard is a pillow fight. You can just stay inside and play Parcheesi until it blows over.




wood stoves are unbeatable when it comes to a year-round country house imho. Fireplaces are picturesque but they don't really heat (agee with Just A Guy, wood-burning fireplaces look cosy & they smell so nice all through the house, far more appealing than gas fireplaces.)

i have friends in the country in the Ottawa valley who went 3 weeks without power in the dead of winter. The great ice storm of 1999. A previous owner of their farmhouse had built a cosy apartment with its own wood-burning stove in the basement. My friends use this for guests & family visitors, but occasionally on sub-sub-sub zero days they will light the wood stove as well to help heat the house, in addition to the heating system which i think is electrical.

during the ice storm of 1999 they had no heat, no incoming water because pump failed. I believe the septic system was still working. They have a stone fireplace in the living room but didn't bother to keep a fire going in it. 

instead they lived in the lower level apartment with its wood-burning stove, hauling in & melting enough snow to provide water for washing & household needs. They had bottled drinking water, enough gas for the car to go shopping in village, their adult children in ottawa city centre drove out with supplies, somehow they managed for 3 long weeks. They called it Life in the Bunker.

across the road, the farmer with 1,200 dairy cows managed on the farm's generator.

Rusty has 2 other good suggestions for country living, a) investigate propane & b) he doesn't like pellet stoves, although he doesn't explain why. 

if i were planning a smallish country house without enough space for both a fireplace & a wood stove, i'd go for a small wood stove.


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## 1980z28 (Mar 4, 2010)

sags said:


> Just for decor..........I would go for the propane fireplace.
> 
> We used to have a natural gas fireplace that didn't require hydro to run. It had a big round front and a grate on the top for the hot air to rise. It was rated as a furnace and really threw out the heat.
> 
> ...


I am leaning towards a pellet stove as the house is small

I will have a backup power supply,I have a river beside the house,water wheel and batteries,invertor,plus a wind turbine,could not do solar as to much fog,have own septic,well,two private roads also had to install nine hydro poles,,,the cost to be at the oceans edge,all together 126 acres,I have the land for 8 years now and the build has gone on for the last 5 years,,,will be finish by june,I hope

Thanks for the input,,,all


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Wood is great for the country, great back up for power issues. Your home insurance will be higher though. It's all a trade-off


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

Friends of mine use a pellet stove in Northern BC they have been using this for some 15 years.
A good pellet stove does cost around 2000,00 dollars and bags of pellets can be bought for around 3.00 a bag he tells me that a bag will last about 24 hours heating his 1200 sq. ft house.
Pellet stoves seem great as you can control the amount of heat.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

On our farm we first had oil heat, then switched to electric way back in the 80s but electric was cheap. Heating with it now would be costly even in an efficient house.

If you go propane, then you can also hook up an electric generator to it and have back up electricity. I would keep a wood or pellet stove as supplement/back up too.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

1980z28 said:


> I am leaning towards a pellet stove as the house is small
> 
> I will have a backup power supply,I have a river beside the house,water wheel and batteries,invertor,plus a wind turbine,could not do solar as to much fog,have own septic,well



a pellet stove would be nice. Stoves are more social focal points than fireplaces i think. I have recollections of so many guys putting their sock feet up on stove edges, boots off, to warm up in farmhouses & rustic chalets. But maybe they are more polite in newfoundland? by rustic chalets i mean mountain huts & ski cabins, not primary residences.

that backup power system sounds wild. Wild. How long would the batteries last? would you not be lucky to get more than a day out of them?


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Install a ductless split heat pump with low temperature heating capability (-25C) in the main area of the house. This could be sized for your main living area possibly a 12K BTU (1 ton) or a 18K BTU (1.5 ton) to handle most of your home a good part of the winter. This will cost approx 40-50% of electric baseboard (200-300% efficiency compared to 100% with electric baseboard). Your electric (assuming its baseboard) is the perfect back up for additional heat as required, especially in the less used and more remote areas like bedroom, spare room etc. 

It's also much easier to regulate temperatures in the home this way vs stoves that tend to not have enough adjustment- often too warm in a smaller home or area, and is much less work. 

You also have the benefit of AC for dehumidifying and cooling on a few of those hot humid days if desired.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

I believe Sears has the whole package (including install) on for $69.95


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

steve41 said:


> I believe Sears has the whole package (including install) on for $69.95



this is a cruel joke?

but maybe heat pumps are 69.95 in the mild gulf islands each:


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

RBull said:


> Install a ductless split heat pump with low temperature heating capability (-25C) in the main area of the house. This could be sized for your main living area possibly a 12K BTU (1 ton) or a 18K BTU (1.5 ton) to handle most of your home a good part of the winter. This will cost approx 40-50% of electric baseboard (200-300% efficiency compared to 100% with electric baseboard). Your electric (assuming its baseboard) is the perfect back up for additional heat as required, especially in the less used and more remote areas like bedroom, spare room etc.
> 
> It's also much easier to regulate temperatures in the home this way vs stoves that tend to not have enough adjustment- often too warm in a smaller home or area, and is much less work.
> 
> You also have the benefit of AC for dehumidifying and cooling on a few of those hot humid days if desired.



what a first-rate idea. They don't call it The Rock for nothing.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

now we come to the nitty gritty. 1980 says his guest apartment will be over the garage. It's a separate structure. Reportedly looks straight out over the ocean. Lucky cmffers have even been invited to come stay in the guest apartment.

_so how are we heating the guest apartment over the garage _.each:


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## 1980z28 (Mar 4, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> a pellet stove would be nice. Stoves are more social focal points than fireplaces i think. I have recollections of so many guys putting their sock feet up on stove edges, boots off, to warm up in farmhouses & rustic chalets. But maybe they are more polite in newfoundland? by rustic chalets i mean mountain huts & ski cabins, not primary residences.
> 
> that backup power system sounds wild. Wild. How long would the batteries last? would you not be lucky to get more than a day out of them?


Using deep cycle AGM batteries,will last for a week using lights,tv and small appliance

I have a 20 year old cast iron stove for the garage,when up to temp will stay warm a ling time,have enough wood cut for a couple of years,can but 30 inch logs in it,garage is two story with 2 bedroom apt on top


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## 1980z28 (Mar 4, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> what a first-rate idea. They don't call it The Rock for nothing.


Will only need a heat source as AC will not be required(sea breeze)


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

1980z28, you should seriously consider what I suggested if you're interested in low operating cost, convenience and reasonable initial $ outlay. 

I have 13 years of electric baseboard heat with wood stove in house #1. Burned 3 cords of wood annually for 13 years. Major work, costly and messy. 
I have 9 years of heat pump centrally ducted with electric strip plenum back up, plus propane fireplace (not usable since home was comfortable temp throughout) in house #2. Very economical, clean and simple. IIRC, cost of propane tank is noteworthy. 
I have 4 years of 2 ductless heat pumps with back up electric (baseboard, electric thermal storage, infloor electric) in house #3. Very economical. I have sea breeze as well so AC is used maybe 10 days a year when hot/humid- a nice bonus.


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

1980z28 said:


> I am leaning towards a pellet stove as the house is small


Your logic is unsound. You can get a wood stove as small as the pellet stove in terms of BTU/hr. It will have greater peaks and valleys. My basement stove is a Regency medium that cycles that ~ 200 square foot room between 12C to say 26 or so over 8 or 12 hours for one load. A regency small in a larger space might suit your situation.

I agree that if you don't see firewood operations as your gym plan, almost any alternative is better. I do 5 cords (128 cu feet per stacked cord) a year.

hboy43


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## 1980z28 (Mar 4, 2010)

hboy43 said:


> Your logic is unsound. You can get a wood stove as small as the pellet stove in terms of BTU/hr. It will have greater peaks and valleys. My basement stove is a Regency medium that cycles that ~ 200 square foot room between 12C to say 26 or so over 8 or 12 hours for one load. A regency small in a larger space might suit your situation.
> 
> I agree that if you don't see firewood operations as your gym plan, almost any alternative is better. I do 5 cords (128 cu feet per stacked cord) a year.
> 
> hboy43


The stove in the garage works great as a heat source,the only one,I have enough wood cut to last a couple of years already,so all the work required for the burning of wood I do enjoy,plus fishing and hunting and looking after root crops,can`t wait

The house only requires a second source,no chimney require

As the house will be very well insulated,I am thinking the smaller the better,so looking at pellet stoves this week

Thankyou for the input


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> There is talk of banning wood fireplaces for environmental issues as well in a lot of places.


It's hard to get insurance on a house that has a wood fireplace. Too many chimney fires, so the insurance undewriters are very wary these days if you mention you have a wood burning fireplace, stove or even a wood burning furnace.
Some insurers will still give you insurance at much higher premiums,others will flatly refuse. The fireplace or wood stove has to professional installed and inspected.

I have a wood fireplace that I converted to a natgas insert. it is used for heating my upstairs. I have had no issues with it or the fire insurance company.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

My sister has a similar sized home in Newfoundland and runs a wood stove ,she frequently has to open a window because thehouse gets too hot .Now her husband is 56 back issues can't haul the wood and even if you buy it still lots of work involved.My parents have a house with wood stove plus oil boiler system ,too much for them to keep up with the wood now so looking at doing another heating system . I would pick propane anyday if this is a retire home for yourself.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

lol we are all so wrapped up in 1980's housebuilding! i think because it's a storybook house, it appeals to the dolls' house fairytale instinct that many of us have, except this one's coming true.

back to the practical, i believe 1980 said he's leaning to pellet stove for the house itself but thinking wood stove for the separate garage, which will have a guest apartment upstairs on the 2nd level.

so it occurs to me to ask, is that garage going to be heated 24/7, all winter long? or will it only be heated when there are guests staying in the apartment? i suppose in the case of intermittent heating, the pipes would have to be drained between ... unless (who knows) maybe interior temperatures in oceanside houses in newfoundland don't drop below freezing.

speaking of storybook houses in newfoundland, marina how are you doing with the recently-purchased pink & green treasure? it seems every time you open a wall you discover unheard-of kinds of wirings & plumbings from bygone years that have to be replaced, so it's been a challenge.

iirc your property is also on the ocean. It'll be lovely, all the hard work for both of you is going to pay off.


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Our home has both a natural gas fireplace and a wood burning fireplace. We prefer the gas fireplace for the convenience, safety and cost.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

I have had the same pellet stove for 10 years and used other pellet stoves and corn stoves before that. They are ok and less work than a wood stove. In cold weather like we have been having lately will burn a bag of pellets a day which costs $5.99. This does not heat my house just a 20 X 22 room. I'm sure an electric heater would cost the same or less and a lot less work.

The rest of the house is heated with an oil furnace. The room we are speaking of is an addition to the original Victorian brick house. There is no way to get a heat duct to it without cutting through a 3 foot thick stone foundation and digging into a crawl space.

If I was going to do it over again I would have a propane furnace and propane fireplace or space heater. Propane is pretty cheap right now.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

If it is actually for heat not aesthetics then a small good stove beats everything. Chimneys are easy to add and if done right will also add heat. (located central...not exterior wall. Add mass in the way of stone or brick near the stove.


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## dotnet_nerd (Jul 1, 2009)

I can't believe all the outdated information on this thread. 

I have a wood-burning fireplace. It's a zero-clearance unit that runs at about 85% efficiency, as most modern ones do. When burning properly seasoned dry wood I see no visible smoke from the chimney. 

-Insurance is a non-issue if the installer is WETT certified. Our rates didn't go up one DIME.

-It has an outside air kit, so all combustion oxygen comes from outside. The glass door is sealed shut. No air from the house goes up the chimney, therefore no heat loss.

-I don't find it messy at all. 

Having said that, it depends on your access to wood. Buying retail is a losing game. A bush cord (4x4x8') in southern Ontario runs about $300. If it's hardwood like maple or ash you'll get about 25 million BTUS. That's over twice the cost of natgas. But if you have your own woodlot and are willing to do the work, you can save hundreds of $$$ cutting your own.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Do you want it for heat or decoration?


An excellent question to figure out ... as picturesque as fireplaces are, my experience is that they are a terrible way to heat a house, with most of the heat going up the chimney.




1980z28 said:


> Because the house is only 1200 ft
> Wood my get to hot for a small house that will be very well insulated
> 
> So wood is of the list ...


My high efficiency wood stove had adjusters on it that have had no problem changing the temperature. I'm pretty sure the house is on the medium scale for insulation.

The comments on the negative side for the pellet stove that I've seen are that it needs cleaning out of the ash more often than the wood stove and that if it is intended to run during power outage, one has to provide an alternate source for power for the supply auger/thermostat.




1980z28 said:


> BMaybe pellet is good as there is no chimney ,,,can get a small one


Interesting ... everyone I know in my area who has a pellet stove has a chimney or stove pipe. Whether it's pellets or wood, there is fire so something has to pipe the fumes outside.


Cheers


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

friend with pellet stove to heat kitchen/dining/living wing of an old farmhouse said that the pellet had to have its own chimney. This was a new install. Kind of ugly wide metal duct up the wall, elbow bend below the ceiling, then laterally through the wall to the outside.

house had other original working chimneys for the old stone wood-burning fireplaces.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

carverman said:


> It's hard to get insurance on a house that has a wood fireplace. Too many chimney fires, so the insurance undewriters are very wary these days if you mention you have a wood burning fireplace, stove or even a wood burning furnace.
> Some insurers will still give you insurance at much higher premiums,others will flatly refuse. The fireplace or wood stove has to professional installed and inspected.
> 
> I have a wood fireplace that I converted to a natgas insert. it is used for heating my upstairs. I have had no issues with it or the fire insurance company.


Insurance companies don't generally surcharge for a traditional wood fireplace. Fireplaces are not meant for heating your home. Most insurers will not insure a home with a wood stove as a primary source. They generally want a central form of heat that is thermostatically controlled - forced air furnace, electric heat pump, baseboard heaters, etc. A wood stove, insert, pellet, etc. as an auxiliary heat source is generally a none issue for most insurance companies as long the unit is certified, professionally installed, etc. Generally you'll pay an extra $40-60 per year.

I have a wood stove and forced air propane furnace. I had no issues with insurance. Love the wood stove. It is however a lot of work and not suitable for the average person IMO.

If I was building a 1200 sq ft home and had wood to cut I'd install a wood stove as an auxiliary heat source and have some form of primary central heating installed - to appease insurance companies, so you're not a slave to your stove, etc.


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## 1980z28 (Mar 4, 2010)

After thinking that a pellet stove would be good,went to showroom,no pellet stove in the future for me

Because I have 80 plus acres of wood,that I have been using for garage

Now looking at wood stove as it would be cheap to run as I have the fuel on hand


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## tri-guy (Jan 27, 2016)

I'd take wood. major downside to wood is that since you are a new build the national building code of Canada will require that you install a HRV (heat recovery ventilator). this can cost more then the stove and pipe since ductwork and a plumbing drain will need to be install to the ventilator. insurance isn't that big of an issue...no more then a swimming pool


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

Synergy said:


> If I was building a 1200 sq ft home and had wood to cut I'd install a wood stove as an auxiliary heat source and have some form of primary central heating installed - to appease insurance companies, so you're not a slave to your stove, etc.


I am pretty sure this is a building code requirement in Ontario. The cheap way around is to install unused baseboard heaters. I actually purchased a bunch of these, but have decided that with the ongoing Liberal electricity incompetence in Ontario, it just isn't worth doing. So I am leaning to a propane central system eventually to replace my oil. I don't mind doing wood, but I can't get called away, for example a medical issue with my parents. With every advancing year I have less flexibility to not have an economical reliable backup.

Oh, and chimney fires is really, really low risk with a modern burner and chimney used properly. The first time I cleaned out my wood/oil furnace chimney, I obtained about a half steel garbage can of cresote. The insurer shut this one down, literally, the door is welded shut so I can still use the oil side but not the wood. When I do my modern chimneys, I get less than a cup for the entire season. The only reason to do it really is because the law says you must, and to clear out any animals that might have moved in during the off season. There is absolutely zero chimney fire risk in my installs. I would argue that an intelligent person running a modern wood install is a safer situation than a furnace that is not seen all season. I observe how it behaves every time I load and am instantly aware if something unusual is happening.

As wood burning is a rural thing and insurance is a city thing, there is no rationality around modern wood installs and insurance.

hboy43


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## tri-guy (Jan 27, 2016)

hboy43 said:


> I am pretty sure this is a building code requirement in Ontario. The cheap way around is to install unused baseboard heaters. I actually purchased a bunch of these, but have decided that with the ongoing Liberal electricity incompetence in Ontario, it just isn't worth doing. So I am leaning to a propane central system eventually to replace my oil. I don't mind doing wood, but I can't get called away, for example a medical issue with my parents. With every advancing year I have less flexibility to not have an economical reliable backup.
> 
> Oh, and chimney fires is really, really low risk with a modern burner and chimney used properly. The first time I cleaned out my wood/oil furnace chimney, I obtained about a half steel garbage can of cresote. The insurer shut this one down, literally, the door is welded shut so I can still use the oil side but not the wood. When I do my modern chimneys, I get less than a cup for the entire season. The only reason to do it really is because the law says you must, and to clear out any animals that might have moved in during the off season. There is absolutely zero chimney fire risk in my installs. I would argue that an intelligent person running a modern wood install is a safer situation than a furnace that is not seen all season. I observe how it behaves every time I load and am instantly aware if something unusual is happening.
> 
> ...



I'm still using the 1995 NBCC. I thought it was changed when the 2010 code come out? I know it changed in the 2006 OBC and they will be mandatory Jan 2017 in Ontario in all new homes. 
I agree a little bit of maintenance almost guarantees no chimney fires...as well as what your burning.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

hboy43 said:


> As wood burning is a rural thing and insurance is a city thing, there is no rationality around modern wood installs and insurance.


Insurance is also a rural thing. You have companies who specialize in commercial farms, hobby farms, rural homes, etc. Many of these homes would have wood stoves. Many of the farm houses being build today are fancy estate homes nicer than many of the home being built in town.

As for bld codes I'm not familiar with the requirements but they may be there. It only makes sense to have some sort of back-up, thermostatically controlled heat source.


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## Hawkdog (Oct 26, 2012)

We use a Blaze King Princess wood stove. I have a 100 plus acres as well. Most of the wood I use is recent blow down or snags that have potential to fall on the driveway.
We also have an electric boiler - heated floor throughout the house in 3 zones. 1500 sq foot house. 
Once we bought the wood stove the cost is minimal - probably 30-40L of gas per year and oil. New chain every few years. Roughly 50 bucks/year. Plus you get exercise.

We owned pellet stoves in the past - my wife likes - I don't. The igniter goes at least once a year. And you end up with a huge supply of empty plastic bags - we ended up just using them for garbage bags, but now a days we recycle so much and compost that I only go to the dump every couple weeks with a couple small bags. Pellet stoves are easier but so is the escalator - you will live longer if you use the stairs

The cost of burning pellets is roughly 4 bucks a day if you burn a bag a day - so if you use for 150 days that is $600.00 per year. Plus you need a truck really cause pellets are cheaper by the pallet - or you can get them delivered but that costs extra.

We also bought a chipper - so we chip all the limbs and use for mulch in the garden.

Just make sure you clean your chimney every 6 months at least. Buy a cleaner from Crappy tire.

The only time you should have insurance issues is if you own a cedar shingle roof or a log home. If you have new efficient stove professionally installed you should have any issues.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> friend with pellet stove to heat kitchen/dining/living wing of an old farmhouse said that the pellet had to have its own chimney.


Interesting ... my co-worker's pellet stove using the old fireplace chimney.

Maybe it's changes to the local bylaws? 
He's had his quite a while now.


Cheers


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