# Servicing car in dealership



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

I always get my cars serviced in dealership where i bought it. When I'm coming for regular check ups (to change oil etc), service center always find something that needed to fix and also they tell that if i fix it rignt now, I'll get some discount. Usually I jave no idea what they are talking about as they're using specific terms. However, I suspect, that majority of those proposed "repairs" are optional. When you service your car and told that something needed a fix, do you shop around to get maybe cheaper price in other dealerships?


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## cashinstinct (Apr 4, 2009)

What about not going to stealership?


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## 1980z28 (Mar 4, 2010)

gibor said:


> I always get my cars serviced in dealership where i bought it. When I'm coming for regular check ups (to change oil etc), service center always find something that needed to fix and also they tell that if i fix it rignt now, I'll get some discount. Usually I jave no idea what they are talking about as they're using specific terms. However, I suspect, that majority of those proposed "repairs" are optional. When you service your car and told that something needed a fix, do you shop around to get maybe cheaper price in other dealerships?


I have work as a mechanic for 37 years,if it is warranty,go ahead,if not there is options for quotes and second opinions

You will never know how complicated autos are today,mechanics make in around 30-40 per hour,shop makes about 100 to 150 per hour,so it goes,electrical is more,,auto cost 20k up to $$$$

Always get a second opinion for repair costs,markup is big just like a mattress


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## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

I've found in recent years that dealership repair costs have skyrocketed. It's to the point that they dealerships are quoting me about double what other places do. 

In addition of course to recommending maintenance that is probably unnecessary. I took my dodge in this week because it was making a noise and they wanted $1300 to replace the alternator, but another $1700 for regular maintenance. I said forget it and took it to another shop which is fixing the alternator for $650.


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## 1980z28 (Mar 4, 2010)

CalgaryPotato said:


> I've found in recent years that dealership repair costs have skyrocketed. It's to the point that they dealerships are quoting me about double what other places do.
> 
> In addition of course to recommending maintenance that is probably unnecessary. I took my dodge in this week because it was making a noise and they wanted $1300 to replace the alternator, but another $1700 for regular maintenance. I said forget it and took it to another shop which is fixing the alternator for $650.


You can always have your atl rebuilt for a couple hours labour plus parts,less than 100 for parts,or get one from recycler with warranty,or exchange from rebuilder,they are a common alt,IMHO,only if you have the time,if you need vehicle as soon as possible that is another story


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

gibor said:


> Usually I jave no idea what they are talking about as they're using specific terms. However, I suspect, that majority of those proposed "repairs" are optional. When you service your car and told that something needed a fix, do you shop around to get maybe cheaper price in other dealerships?


If you don't have any idea of the problem you're at the mercy of their service department or any other mechanic (unless you know of one you can truely trust) you take your car too. You can always try to get them to explain in more detail, even show you "exactly" what they say needs fixing. Generally dealerships are the last place I'd take a car to be fixed.


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## OurBigFatWallet (Jan 20, 2014)

I stopped going to the dealership and saved about 40% compared to what I used to pay. 

Read about it here: http://www.ourbigfatwallet.com/how-i-switched-mechanics-and-saved-big/

My suggestion would be to shop around and find a reputable, reasonably priced mechanic with a good BBB rating. I'd go to the dealer for warranty work but anything else I would avoid them. Biggest difference I've seen is that mechanics fix things whereas dealerships order new parts


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> My suggestion would be to shop around and find a reputable, reasonably priced mechanic with a good BBB rating.


 I'd like to find "reputable, reasonably priced mechanic " , but how?! btw, anybody can recommend such mechanic in Mississauga, Oakville, Milton, West Toronto?


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## OurBigFatWallet (Jan 20, 2014)

gibor said:


> I'd like to find "reputable, reasonably priced mechanic " , but how?! btw, anybody can recommend such mechanic in Mississauga?


Word of mouth, online ratings (ie. google search), BBB search and online forums specific to your area are all suggestions for mechanic ratings. Have you looked at the Mississauga BBB for mechanics?

For rates I just ended up calling a few to get a better idea of what they charged. Dealers were always more than any smaller mechanic shop


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I wonder how much of the additional dealership cost is related to the use of OEM parts only.

Part prices can vary all over the map, but so can their quality.

Beware that if your vehicle is under warranty and the part replaced at a non dealership is not an OEM certified part, it could void your warranty.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> Beware that if your vehicle is under warranty and the part replaced at a non dealership is not an OEM certified part, it could void your warranty.


If the part being replaced was a warranty part I would imagine the OP would get it taken care of at the dealership.


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

CalgaryPotato said:


> In addition of course to recommending maintenance that is probably unnecessary. I took my dodge in this week because it was making a noise and they wanted $1300 to replace the alternator, but another $1700 for regular maintenance. I said forget it and took it to another shop which is fixing the alternator for $650.


My car was making some noises last year and took it to a shop. They told me it's alternator and it would cost $800 to fix it. I contacted Honda dealer over phone and they said it would cost $2,500 to change the alternator. Later, I took my car to my colleague's father's shop and he found the problem with his stethoscope. The problem was the ac belt. He charged me $100 to change the a/c belts. No more noise since then.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Stealership is almost always the most expensive place to have repairs done. This is where dealers make their money- the back end. The front end (car sales) breaks even or ekes out a small profit. 

Unless it is warranty work always get another quote. You want to make the repair needed is legit and if so compare pricing.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

sags said:


> I wonder how much of the additional dealership cost is related to the use of OEM parts only.
> 
> Part prices can vary all over the map, but so can their quality.
> 
> Beware that if your vehicle is under warranty and the part replaced at a non dealership is not an OEM certified part, it could void your warranty.


Who is going to pay to have a part replaced somewhere other than a dealership when it is covered by warranty? Only a fool. 

OEM parts are slightly higher priced than typical aftermarket. Please understand the parts are all made by another company (not the car manufacturer), and some by the same companies that supply their own branded replacements. The main culprit with dealership service charges is high labour and overhead charges. There is also the exorbitant "shop charges" -typically 5-10% automatically added, for supplies related to repairs. This has massive markup. 

Other parts such as oil filters etc do not have to be OEM and will not void the cars warranty, unless the stealer can prove it is the cause of a related problem. (Virtually impossible) Manufacturers and stealers want to have people believe going elsewhere and using other parts will void warranty, and that all other parts are inferior. Some are, many aren't. Many aftermarket parts are available of higher quality than OEM. YMMV


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There are actually 3 categories of auto parts.

1) Genuine.............which is the same part that was applied at the assembly plant when the vehicle was built. Same part, manufacturer and quality.

2) OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer)....which may or may not be the same part as was put on the vehicle during the assembly process. The part must fill the specification requirements of the manufacturer.

3) Aftermarket (NAPA, Canadian Tire, AutoZone)..........parts do not fill the manufacturer specifications and vary greatly in quality.

I worked in an auto parts warehouse for 30 years, and pretty well all of the aftermarket parts I saw were noticeably inferior to Genuine and OEM parts.


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## 1980z28 (Mar 4, 2010)

sags said:


> There are actually 3 categories of auto parts.
> 
> 1) Genuine.............which is the same part that was applied at the assembly plant when the vehicle was built. Same part, manufacturer and quality.
> 
> ...


As a mechanic for 37 years you get what you pay for,bottom line


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

sags said:


> There are actually 3 categories of auto parts.
> 
> 1) Genuine.............which is the same part that was applied at the assembly plant when the vehicle was built. Same part, manufacturer and quality.
> 
> ...


^
Partly correct. 

3) is a list of run of the mill retailers that sell parts from various manufacturers and mostly lower quality items, which sounds like the type of place you worked. However there are also other retailers and other manufacturers that supply superior quality product to OEM or Genuine. For example I can buy higher quality rotors and brake pads than and I can certainly buy much lower grade. I can buy a higher grade oil filter than most OEM. It's a stretch to suggest no aftermarket parts fill manufacturer specifications.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I agree there are lots of aftermarket parts that are far superior to OEM or Genuine parts.

I would think they fall mostly in the "performance" category and would not be classified as cheap alternates.

For the context of this discussion, I think the gist is that any "aftermarket" part is suitable and because it is cheaper is preferable.

The new car manufacturers themselves offer some aftermarket parts that are superior to their own line of products.

It is a buyer beware situation and people would be well served to use quality products from reliable sources. 

Nothing like cheap electrical components to get your dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree................


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## 1980z28 (Mar 4, 2010)

sags said:


> I would think they fall mostly in the "performance" category and would not be classified as cheap alternates.



Agree,you get what you pay for


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

100% agree Sags, especially with the buyer beware comment. Lots of junk available out there now.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I can also agree that some OEM parts are pretty lame.

We had an employee ship styrofoam pieces to a dealer instead of a Cadillac Escalade radio, and the plant manager came out looking for the "idiot" who would ship Styrofoam.

The union showed him the styrofoam auto bumpers and other parts we had in stock. He shook his head and said......."we ship styrofoam parts?"

Yup...............and "leaf springs" that are moulded plastic made to look like steel leaf springs...........and motors you can pick up with one hand, and exhaust pipes you could bend in your hand.......and........

As 1980z28 says..........you get what you pay for and that includes the cheapest models of cars.

They all look pretty in the showroom.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

A few years back I was looking in my Dodge Caravan owner's manual for the timing belt service interval. Turns out you no longer need to replace the timing belt, but you do need to replace the alternator brushes at 150,000 Km

When my alternator quit working at 180,000 Km I remembered, and checked the brushes, sure enough they were worn out.

New brushes, with brush holder, from dealer - $85

New brushes, with brush holder, aftermarket - $35

New brushes from auto electric shop, no brush holder - $14

I got the brushes, put them in the old brush holder, put them in the alternator and it worked like new. Did not have to take the alternator off the car, just take out 2 screws and pull out the brush holder.

You guys that got hosed for new alternators, next time look in the yellow pages for auto electric shops. They will rebuild your alternator as good as new for $300.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

OurBigFatWallet said:


> Word of mouth, online ratings (ie. google search), BBB search and online forums specific to your area are all suggestions for mechanic ratings. Have you looked at the Mississauga BBB for mechanics?


Did some research online.... looks like one of the best http://www.tjfauto.com/contact_us.html


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## tenoclock (Jan 23, 2015)

Just got a cam sensor replaced on my 2004 Nissan. First took it to the dealer, they wanted to run a full diagnostic even though I had a pretty good idea it was the cam sensor and told them so but they wanted to run all electrical diagnostics and charge me for it. Then the part and the labor. All in all, I was looking at dishing out $400-500 to them. I went to a local mechanic instead, and got everything done for $110. Stealership denied. I cringe why people would wanna go there!


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

For many types of work you don't have to go to the dealership of your make. For example you can take a BMW to a Chevy dealership for something simple like an oil change or brake job. A Chevy dealership should be capable of doing all but the most complex work on a non-Chevy car. I've taken my Japanese car to a Chevy dealership because they are much cheaper and also closer.


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## noobs (Sep 27, 2015)

I go to my dealer because even if it`s a bit more expensive for a simply oil change (say $30 vs $45 ) I have a piece of mind, I keep the maintenance record for re-sale etc.
They tried to come back and tell me different things were wrong so I`d always ask to show me but I`m also a bit of a car guy so that def helps.
Last check up they wanted to charge me $25 to tighten my handbrake cable... really? lol


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## DollaWine (Aug 4, 2015)

I pity anybody who goes to a stealership for a $59.95 oil change or a $400 brake pad replacement. If only you were aware of the *thousands* of dollars you've *wasted* over the years.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Ahh - the "peace of mind" for spending more money (water heater rental comes to mind with this peace of mind reason that I've heard and laugh at way too many times lol). When I get aftermarket parts, I watch for (and avoid) components that have Chinese bearings and seals and prefer to get SKF or other decent North American parts - although that doesn't mean SKF doesn't get them made in China.
The Stealerships are good for some things like reflashing the computer if required and performing other TSB, recall or warranty replacement items. But to take it there for a regular oil change.... but be careful because they may also change the cabin air filter for mucho peso's and that is so simple to DIY - just like the cold air intake filter. My daughter took her 2014 Ram to a Dodge dealer for a synthetic oil change for $160. Lets see - a filter is $8.00 and synthetic oil on sale is about $40. Shop supplies must be expensive these days. Perhaps I'll bring them some gloves and a roll of paper towel next time.

I took a vehicle to Crappy Tire (once) for a replacement muffler because they had a sale on. Well they couldn't install the one on sale because mine was welded and my God they couldn't cut the tailpipe to make it fit!!!! So a special one had to be installed - didn't happen so I took it to a muffler shop with no issues. CT did a 'free' inspection and found $1000 worth of other things that needed to be done - including replacing some wheel nuts which were missing the little chrome cosmetic caps. The problem is my wife took it in...and they thought they hooked a sucker. CT is also a bad place to get anything other than tires etc. Just my opinion.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

DollaWine said:


> I pity anybody who goes to a stealership for a $59.95 oil change or a $400 brake pad replacement. If only you were aware of the *thousands* of dollars you've *wasted* over the years.


Aside from changing the oil yourself, $60 is pretty much the going rate for an oil change around here. That includes the lube shops like Mr Lube, Lube City, etc.
A gallon and a half of oil and decent oil filter is going to cost you 35-40$ anyways. Assuming you don't put a value on the time it takes you to change the oil and properly dispose of the oil and filter, it's going to take you over 10 years to break $1000 in savings. And that's changing the oil every 3mo on the nose rather than waiting for the car computer to tell you when its due.

Brake pads - sure the pads themselves are cheap. Not a hard task to do if you have the tools and proper equipment. How often do they get changed? Every 3, 5, 8 yrs? Again, it'll take over 10 years to break $1000 in savings. Again assuming you don't put a value on your time and it's only the pads that need changing and not the rotors, calipers, lines, etc.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Yes - the $60 at the Jippy Lube place is for house brand conventional oil and probably a Fram filter. For about $40, I get a Wix filter (much better) and synthetic oil on sale at CT (or Costco). I'd personally never use a Fram filter based on others' comments. And living in this cold country, synthetic is much better for cold weather starts. You won't get a synthetic oil change for that $60 at Lubie Lube!

Lately I have found on the past few cars that I maintain, when it is time to change pads, it is a good idea to change the rotors too - at about the 100K mark depending on driving habits etc. I've found that shortly after the 100- 120K mark, the rotors start to warp, rust and are grooved and getting them turned is a waste of money because when you take off some steel, they warp quite fast afterwards if they get hot. Not changing the rotors at the same time can cause the new pads to seat according to the old rotors condition, then when the rotors warp, the pads are grooved and may cause problems on the new rotors - like on consistent rotor contact, and rust on some non contact areas. Anyway - just my observation lately. When both pads and rotors are changed, the brakes are good until 200K. 

Keep in mind this is the frugality section - so saving a few bucks by DIY is the name of the game. It doesn't hurt if you like to do this stuff either. If you find it is a PITA, then by all means - let someone else do it and you can find other places to keep costs down. Like making your own wine! LOL.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Brian K said:


> Yes - the $60 at the Jippy Lube place is for house brand conventional oil and probably a Fram filter. For about $40, I get a Wix filter (much better) and synthetic oil on sale at CT (or Costco). I'd personally never use a Fram filter based on others' comments. And living in this cold country, synthetic is much better for cold weather starts. You won't get a synthetic oil change for that $60 at Lubie Lube!


Correct, a synthetic oil change with Mobil 1 or equivalent will run about $95 with the use of coupons. Most cars these days have extended service schedules. Some have computers which tell you when to change the oil, which is often much longer than 3 months. We get the synthetic oil in our subaru and the folks at the lube shop try to recommend all types of things when we come in at, gasp, 10K intervals. Of course, subaru actually recommends 10K as the service interval. And some synthetic oil companies will guarantee performance up to 25K intervals. I say that's a better way to save money that trying DIY, which really is something that maybe 15% of the population has the skills, time, and wherewithal to do.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

nobleea said:


> Correct, a synthetic oil change with Mobil 1 or equivalent will run about $95 with the use of coupons.


:stupid: Whaaa?!?!

For years I always changed the oil myself, but these days my kids suck up all my time. I sure am happy to drop off my synthetic and filter to my trusted mechanic and he does the work (in a split second) for $20, oil bought from the US for $25, filter from NAPA (gold filters are rebranded Wix) when they are on sale for $5. $50 bucks saved is $50 that goes into my beer budget.

Key, find a good mechanic which you can develop a strong personal and business relationship with.


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## DollaWine (Aug 4, 2015)

nobleea said:


> Aside from changing the oil yourself, $60 is pretty much the going rate for an oil change around here. That includes the lube shops like Mr Lube, Lube City, etc.
> A gallon and a half of oil and decent oil filter is going to cost you 35-40$ anyways. Assuming you don't put a value on the time it takes you to change the oil and properly dispose of the oil and filter, it's going to take you over 10 years to break $1000 in savings. And that's changing the oil every 3mo on the nose rather than waiting for the car computer to tell you when its due.
> 
> Brake pads - sure the pads themselves are cheap. Not a hard task to do if you have the tools and proper equipment. How often do they get changed? Every 3, 5, 8 yrs? Again, it'll take over 10 years to break $1000 in savings. Again assuming you don't put a value on your time and it's only the pads that need changing and not the rotors, calipers, lines, etc.


It's all about finding a good, trustworthy, local mechanic. You build a rapport and over time he may even give you discounts. You listed places like Mr. Lube, etc. Those are the exactly the types of places I stay away from because they charge more than a local mechanic for NO good reason other than the "peace of mind" that a guy in a Mr. Lube t-shirt with a name tag on is doing the job. My oil change guy owns a shop with his 2 brothers. $34.95 for synthetic, INCLUDING the filter. Brake pad change is 1 hour of labour. Any of those big corporations that say "a brake pad change is a 4 hour job, come back at the end of the day" is a crook. That's all I'm really saying. My local mechanic, who is of high quality and extremely experienced, can change my brakes in an hour for about $60 labour. I buy the pads myself for about $40 from a local aftermarket parts store. 

Point is, in the automotive repair industry, people tend to like to flush their money down the drain for the simple fact of "peace of mind" when that peace of mind is simply a fallacy in most cases. Canadian Tire's oil is no different than the same high quality, professional grade synthetic oil my oil shop puts in my car. The $35 air filter the stealership charges you to put in is no better than a regular air filter at Walmart for $18. The only time things that that matters, as far as parts, is if you drive a high performance car. There's a big problem with so many people today thinking the more money you pour into your car, the longer it will last. No, the better you _take care_ of your car, the longer it will last. How much you SPEND varies based on your own knowledge of which mechanics to go to and what parts to buy.

Even if it takes 10 years to save $1000, that's still $1000 I wouldn't have had otherwise. Often times, these massive multi-million dollar corporations are crooks, it's that simple. They charge $100 an hour in labour for a 3 hour job that a regular mechanic shop can do in much less time and for much less money.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

The key, as pointed out if you don't want to DIY, is to find a shop you trust - (or at least think you can). Most places try to upsell differential oil changes, tranny fluid flushes, coolant flushes, cabin air and engine air filters - and they are cash cows for them all and sometimes you pay for the service but it doesn't get done.

And correct again - the better you take care of your car the longer it will last. Not sure if I believe that the Motomaster oil is the same as Castrol or Mobil 1 though. The additives are different. I don't think CT gas is as good as Main Stream brands either - again the additives. My car runs better on Esso gas than on the supermarket gas - or maybe I just think it does. Yes it probably comes from the same refinery, but I have 'heard' the additives make the difference. Maybe an old wives tale. I base my feelings on Liters/100 kms. Petrocan gas doesn't seem to perform as well as ESSO either - based on kilometers from a tank.


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## OurBigFatWallet (Jan 20, 2014)

A good/honest mechanic is hard to find but definitely worth the search. I used to take my car to the dealership but tried going elsewhere and was able to save huge amounts. It turns out I had been overpaying for basic work for years. For extra piece of mind I take my vehicle for an independent third party inspection to make sure everything is running ok. 

I'd recommend searching the BBB ratings and online reviews for an honest, local mechanic and avoiding the dealerships. Servicing is where dealerships make a lot of the money as margins on new vehicles can sometimes be limited


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## DollaWine (Aug 4, 2015)

Brian K said:


> The key, as pointed out if you don't want to DIY, is to find a shop you trust - (or at least think you can). Most places try to upsell differential oil changes, tranny fluid flushes, coolant flushes, cabin air and engine air filters - and they are cash cows for them all and sometimes you pay for the service but it doesn't get done.
> 
> And correct again - the better you take care of your car the longer it will last. Not sure if I believe that the Motomaster oil is the same as Castrol or Mobil 1 though. The additives are different. I don't think CT gas is as good as Main Stream brands either - again the additives. My car runs better on Esso gas than on the supermarket gas - or maybe I just think it does. Yes it probably comes from the same refinery, but I have 'heard' the additives make the difference. Maybe an old wives tale. I base my feelings on Liters/100 kms. Petrocan gas doesn't seem to perform as well as ESSO either - based on kilometers from a tank.


Fuel definitely has differences. Way better MPG on Shell than PetroCanada for me.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

DollaWine said:


> Fuel definitely has differences. Way better MPG on Shell than PetroCanada for me.



My understanding which could be wrong is gas companies have to put x amount of ethanol in gas. Some premium brands have no ethanol so the lower grades need have more ethanol to make up for having no ethanol in the premium grade gas. The companies that have premium gas with ethanol can have less ethanol in the lower grades. The government has us burning our food so we can take our lawn mowers & other small engines to be serviced more from the ethanol. Perhaps it is best if your car needs premium use Co ops western Canada, Shell & Canadian tire as they have no ethanol in premium, If you don't use premium stay away from these brands. I do use Co op because the rebate @ the end of the year makes it worth it even though I might be getting more ethanol.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Fortunately for me - no need for premium so I avoid that big cost premium . I always run my small engines dry at the end of the season so the gas doesn't varnish up the components and have no problems with them.
I'm glad others have validated my findings of poorer mileage with Petrocan gas. Probably more ethanol in their Regular gas than other brands.


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

DollaWine said:


> Fuel definitely has differences. Way better MPG on Shell than PetroCanada for me.


Shell really touts the quality of their V-Power gasoline.
I have noticed that Shell matches Petro-Canada on 87 octane, but is consistently 2 cents higher on 89 and 4 cents higher on 91 octane compared to Petro-Canada. Is it worth it?


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

OurBigFatWallet said:


> A good/honest mechanic is hard to find but definitely worth the search. I used to take my car to the dealership but tried going elsewhere and was able to save huge amounts. It turns out I had been overpaying for basic work for years. For extra piece of mind I take my vehicle for an independent third party inspection to make sure everything is running ok.


Is it worth it? I'm sure 20-30 yrs ago when cars weren't as reliable, sure that might be important. But honestly now, with two cars, we have to get minor maintenance done on them a grand total of 2 or 3 times a year. The vehicles are far more reliable and require less maintenance. Some of them have warranties that go out 5, 10 yrs. Am I going to be able to develop any kind of rapport with someone I see 3 times a year for minor maintenance?
And the days of buying something yourself and then getting a shop to install it are coming to an end. Can the shop vouch for the quality and safety of the part? What if it fails? The couple small shops I inquired about this (replacing an AC condenser with one I bought) wouldn't touch it.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Personally, with a new car under warranty I prefer going to the dealership for regular servicing. Could I save by going to an independant shop? Maybe, but then again I would rather not bother with warranty hassles. After the warranty is over, I may go to another shop, but since I only have 2 scheduled services a year, there isn't that much to save.


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## DollaWine (Aug 4, 2015)

GreatLaker said:


> Shell really touts the quality of their V-Power gasoline.
> I have noticed that Shell matches Petro-Canada on 87 octane, but is consistently 2 cents higher on 89 and 4 cents higher on 91 octane compared to Petro-Canada. Is it worth it?


If your car requires premium, it's definitely worth it to pay the extra 3 or 4 cents for Shell's V-Power 91 instead of PetroCanada's 91.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

DollaWine said:


> If your car requires premium, it's definitely worth it to pay the extra 3 or 4 cents for Shell's V-Power 91 instead of PetroCanada's 91.


It's weird that in N.America 91 is considered Premium. But everywhere else, 91 wouldn't even be sold as low grade regular. 93, 95, 97 (sometimes 98 or 99) are the grades everywhere else. For the most part, the same engines.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

^ Not quite as simple as that. In NA premium may range from 91 to 93.

The wide difference in octane ratings you're referring to has to do with the way they're rated (methodology) - yielding no big real differences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating



> Measurement methods
> A US gas station pump offering five different (R+M)/2 octane ratings
> Research Octane Number (RON)
> 
> ...


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Thanks, that was informative.
I do recall in Venezuela, they only sold 97 octane. Pretty sure that was the american rating too. And it was something like 4 cents a litre. Everyone drove 70's boats as there was no incentive to have somethign more fuel efficient. This was almost 10yrs ago.


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## OurBigFatWallet (Jan 20, 2014)

nobleea said:


> Is it worth it? I'm sure 20-30 yrs ago when cars weren't as reliable, sure that might be important. But honestly now, with two cars, we have to get minor maintenance done on them a grand total of 2 or 3 times a year. The vehicles are far more reliable and require less maintenance. Some of them have warranties that go out 5, 10 yrs. Am I going to be able to develop any kind of rapport with someone I see 3 times a year for minor maintenance?
> And the days of buying something yourself and then getting a shop to install it are coming to an end. Can the shop vouch for the quality and safety of the part? What if it fails? The couple small shops I inquired about this (replacing an AC condenser with one I bought) wouldn't touch it.


If a vehicle is still under warranty then absolutely I would take it to a dealer for regular servicing. But if it's off warranty I tend to avoid them. The last time I went to the dealer for regular servicing (for a car off warranty) they had a list of recommendations totalling over $2,000 (the car is only worth $6k). I took it to an independent mechanic and they did all the required work for about $300. 

I dont mind a bit of markup on the parts as I know its a business but the local Toyota dealer sells cabin air filters for $60, you can buy them on ebay for around $5 each and it takes 2 minutes to replace. Filters are the only part I buy/replace myself though. I haven't asked about getting the shop to install a part I bought elsewhere


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## DollaWine (Aug 4, 2015)

OurBigFatWallet said:


> If a vehicle is still under warranty then absolutely I would take it to a dealer for regular servicing. But if it's off warranty I tend to avoid them. *The last time I went to the dealer for regular servicing (for a car off warranty) they had a list of recommendations totalling over $2,000 (the car is only worth $6k). I took it to an independent mechanic and they did all the required work for about $300. *
> 
> I dont mind a bit of markup on the parts as I know its a business but the local Toyota dealer sells cabin air filters for $60, you can buy them on ebay for around $5 each and it takes 2 minutes to replace. Filters are the only part I buy/replace myself though. I haven't asked about getting the shop to install a part I bought elsewhere


And this, my friends, is a perfect representation of my distain for dealerships in a nutshell


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

nobleea said:


> Thanks, that was informative.
> I do recall in Venezuela, they only sold 97 octane. Pretty sure that was the american rating too. And it was something like 4 cents a litre. Everyone drove 70's boats as there was no incentive to have somethign more fuel efficient. This was almost 10yrs ago.


You're welcome. 

Highly doubtful that is a North American rating. 97 octane has basically no application other than a modified hi performance engine with say 13:1+ compression ratio. 
97-6 =91 makes more sense. 

People using higher grades than recommended are actually reducing their power and fuel efficiency since its harder to ignite, and wasting their money.

On using a independent shop vs dealer I will always use my trustworthy local independent if it is a fairly straightforward mechanical repair or relatively easily diagnosed electronic issue, assuming warranty does not apply or service doesn't require specialty tools. (1 of our 3 cars has warranty remaining.) The reason is simple. The cost is approximately half and the completed job is the same. Dealer labour rate $120/hr, my local indy $69/hr These are before 15% taxes and don't include the extra 10% the stealer adds for shop supplies. I can also specify what quality parts I want used - ie OE genuine, brand or quality level of aftermarket, or even used in some cases. I also save time and money by visiting the much closer independent, and the rapport is better than the stealer. 

This also assumes I can't do the work myself. Most things like oil changes, antifreeze flush, brakes, tire rotations, inspections etc I do. Being retired I have lots of time, interest and enjoy a great feeling of satisfaction in doing these with my own hands while saving money. We have 6 vehicles/machines that require oil changes and basic maintenance along with periodic repairs. This adds up to considerable savings in labour costs and some with parts/products. 

I take the same approach with most things. In the past week I fixed a dishwasher that developed a leak in the tub the other day- used a $5.79 tube of jb weld, fixed a coffee grinder that had an internal wire contact deteriorate, replaced radio/clock and bluetooth (with a used one from a wrecker $155 vs $1800 new or $400 "reconditioned" from stealer) in one of our vehicles just out of warranty when the LED lighting went bad. There are dozens of other mechanical and home improvement little things and some big ones successfully completed just in the past year.

Fortunately I have/make the time and like saving money but mostly like the satisfaction of learning/doing it myself. Sometimes I even teach myself new swear words.


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## KevinWaterloo (Mar 5, 2015)

Just to add my $0.02. I consider myself a car guy and do quite a bit of DIY to keep the costs down. And I consider myself very frugal.
My garage currently has a 2002 Porsche Carerra, a 2012 GMC Acadia, and a 2000 Chevy Blazer. I have the Blazer and Acadia since they were about 1 year old (I'd never buy a brand new car since the immediate deprecation is huge).

I do most of the minor repairs and upgrades on my vehicles especially the Porsche. The car is obviously not cheap to maintain however I absolutely love the car and the cost is worth it to me. I read the relevant car forums regularly which includes long discussions on parts, DIY, oil, gasoline etc. Part of the reason why I can afford the Porsche is because I do most of the minor work myself (brakes, fluids, minor repairs etc.).

So my thoughts on some of the posts here
- A big issue that was missed in the posts above is that most/all mechanics add a substantial mark-up on parts that they use on repairs. Sadly this is just part of the business. I have a good relationship with my mechanic and he often sells me parts at a competitive price to the online US shops. If I buy it from him and DIY I get the parts at a reasonable price (ie a percentage over list). If he installs the parts he adds his usual markup which can be between 30-100%. This is true of most mechanics and is how they can advertise lower hourly rates. They still need to make a living and make money somewhere.
- If you can find a mechanic that will install parts that you bring in you are golden. But I think that is pretty rare
- Not all oils are the same. That is true for both synthetic and non-synthetic. Does it matter for all vehicles? Definitely not. I put in synthetic in all of my cars, but I don't worry about the brand except for the Porsche. In the Porsche I an tell the difference between Mobile 1 and Castrol by the noise the engine makes (and would never use Mobile 1 again since they changed the formula). But that car has a high-output engine and there is evidence that cylinder scoring could be an issue. Plus replacing the engine would likely cost more than the value of the car. But I wouldn't worry about it for my other cars
- You can definitely save between $30-50 doing an oil change yourself if you are using synthetic oil. However it does require an upfront investment on tools and time. Getting Castrol Synthetic for ~$40 on sale at CT helps. But I wouldn't recommend DIY an oil change unless you enjoy doing it (at least a little)
- DIY means that you can research and control the parts that are used much better than a mechanic. For some parts that really matters. I rarely use cheap parts for any vehicle when buying them myself. The difference in cost between cheap and 'good' usually isn't huge when buying yourself and I can justify it since I'm saving (a lot) on the markup and labour. I don't believe that aftermarket parts are necessarily inferior to genuine parts as long as your are buying quality aftermarket. But unfortunately that usually requires a bit of research. For 'critical' parts where a failure would result in an accident or a complete engine failure I usually stick to the OE part unless I'm confident the aftermarket is at least as good.
- A good example of using aftermarket is for brakes. Since brake pads are always a tradeoff between cold performance, dust, noise, and hot performance you can usually improve on the OE parts with a little research for a minor increase in cost. For that reason I usually do the brakes myself. But it can be a PITA on a rusty car though.
- also as a minor point on brakes, most mechanics will not finish the installation of new pads the way the pad manufacturer recommends. That requires doing a proper "bed-in". It is another example where DIY can be better than using a mechanic
- rotors don't actually warp. That is an very common misconception. The pulsing you get on brakes is almost always caused by uneven brake pad deposits on the rotors. You can sometimes fix that by running the car through a proper brake "bed-in" proceedure
- rotors do wear a little with use and the margins are thin. I rarely turn rotors, but if they are grooved or unevenly warn, or below the minimum thickness I just replace. For most cars they aren't that expensive. But it can add quite a bit of time to a brake job


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Can you describe the proper bed in process? I think it involves hard braking a few times but if you can share your process, that would be great. 

I changed rotors in a Venza last week once we noticed that going down a long hill resulted in front brake pulsing. 'Normal' braking was smooth. I attributed that to rotor heating. I replaced the pads about 3 months earlier. Once the rotors were replaced, no more pulsing going down the hill once the brakes/rotors were hot. The OEM Toyota rotors were $89 each - relatively cheap and no incentive for me to even look at aftermarket.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

nobleea said:


> Am I going to be able to develop any kind of rapport with someone I see 3 times a year for minor maintenance?


This is not the only way to establish a network.

My mechanic became a family friend after our parents both got duped on a bad investment. There are many ways to find reliable people other than testing their services on multiple occasions.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

scorpion_ca said:


> My car was making some noises last year and took it to a shop. They told me it's alternator and it would cost $800 to fix it. I contacted Honda dealer over phone and they said it would cost $2,500 to change the alternator. Later, I took my car to my colleague's father's shop and he found the problem with his stethoscope. *The problem was the ac belt. He charged me $100 to change the a/c belts. No more noise since then*.


This is a common problem with the smaller Japanese cars. My friend's Mazda Protege has these small serpentine belts that squeal after a few months when they stretch out. 
They can only be adjusted so far and that's it..they have to be replaced.

Here's a question for you. Why would the shop say it's an alternator without checking the charging voltage with the engine running first? Where they indicating it might be a alternator bearing?

Honda stealership "diagnosis over the phone"....you get what you "pay for"...they certainly like to rip people off, especially if the person doesn't know about automotive stuff.

Today, most shops are just parts swappers, little proper diagnostics are done..because in the case of the alternator/AC belt...they make more money off the owner by swapping out
the alternator and the belt at the same time than just the belt. That, I suppose is what keeps them in business.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> Can you describe the proper bed in process? I think it involves hard braking a few times but if you can share your process, that would be great.
> 
> I changed rotors in a Venza last week once we noticed that going down a long hill resulted in *front brake pulsing*. 'Normal' braking was smooth. I attributed that to rotor heating. I replaced the pads about 3 months earlier. *Once the rotors were replaced, no more pulsing going down the hill once the brakes/rotors were hot. *The OEM Toyota rotors were $89 each - relatively cheap and no incentive for me to even look at aftermarket.


Front brake pulsing, unless the anti-lock was engaged, is a sign the one (or both) of the rotors is slightly warped from heat. This is a common problem. 
The pads have to conform into the rotors. That is why it is always advisable to change the pads and rotors as a set. Rotors get polished and warped over time due to heat.

Changing the pads only and not the rotors at the same time, may save some money, but result in brake squeal, pedal vibration due to a warped rotor, and the pads don't seat in (wear in properly) because of the glaze on the old rotors. 

New rotors have these swirled machining marks (which act like sandpaper) to help the new pads "break in" evenly. Years ago, they used to turn the rotors on your vehicle on a lathe
just like brake drums, but now, nobody does that because it's more effective to just replace the rotors.


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## KevinWaterloo (Mar 5, 2015)

Rotors warping from heat is not a common problem. That is a very old wive's tale. The primary cause of pulsing when applying the brakes is due to uneven brake pad deposits on the rotor. That can happen when the brakes are (very) hot and the brake pad is held tightly against the rotor.

A short discussion on the topic can be found at Stoptech (which is a premium supplier of brake parts).
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths

That article also briefly describes the bed-in process that can sometimes be used to remove the brake pad material that caused the vibration.

_"The procedure is several stops of increasing severity with a brief cooling period between them. After the last stop, the system should be allowed to cool to ambient temperature. Typically, a series of ten increasingly hard stops from 60mph to 5 mph with normal acceleration in between should get the job done for a high performance street pad. During pad or disc break-in, do not come to a complete stop, so plan where and when you do this procedure with care and concern for yourself and the safety of others. If you come to a complete stop before the break-in process is completed there is the chance for non-uniform pad material transfer or pad imprinting to take place and the results will be what the whole process is trying to avoid. Game over."_


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Changing rotors DID stop the pulsing in all conditions. I suppose taking the rotors off and finding a place to Blanchard grind them would be something to consider but would probably be more money than the cost of new rotors - let alone not having the car in service while getting that done - and I'd still have old rotors. In my case the old rotors lasted 135,000 kms. Most autoparts places don't grind rotors anymore either - that I have found - let alone something called a Blanchard grind so finding a place to do that might be difficult. And these are not performance rotors either. Thanks for providing the link to the article. It was very interesting. I'll perform the bed-in procedure next pad change, however no complaints of pulsing now so something has improved with the new rotors. I didn't see any left over material on the old rotors either which I have seen on other vehicles before so I think I know what was being described.


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## Brainer (Oct 8, 2015)

I just had my front pipe/catalytic converter die in my 2000 Camry. The dealership quoted me $1900 for the part, or 
$1100 for an aftermarket part.

On a hunch, I looked around, and found a Magnaflow version that was both true stainless steel and similar to OEM in 
both build quality and emissions rating. It cost me $538.00, not including installation, which was another $130.00.

Downside: I had to wait a week to receive the Magnaflow.

Other upside: My car seems to have more engine power since I put the Magnaflow on ( than before the first CAT died).


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

My experience is that there is a huge difference between dealerships. I had a new Ford company car every year for eight years. Lived in the same city. Each one had service issues from Taurus, Escape, and Lincoln. Anything from no heat to complete transmission failure. I had terrible service at one dealership and good service from another. 

The vehicles we own have all been Toyota or Honda. I did dealer service unit about 200K, then switched to a mechanic who specializes in Toyota. I will take both cars to the dealer....but only for oil changes now. Price is fair and I can get it done without an appointment.

I found that the quality of dealer service on our Toyota and Honda products was considerably better than the Ford warranty service that I experience from two of their dealerships.


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