# Gas Furnace wisdom?



## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

Hello Gang:

Well, after delaying the inevitable about 12 years, I am thinking of replacing my oil furnace with a gas (propane) furnace.

My intention is to primarily heat with wood as long as my health holds out, so hopefully the time frame is in decades. So what I am really buying is unattended heating for winter vacations a few weeks a season, and insurance if I break a leg or something (or worse). Realistically, I'll probably get lazy and use the furnace in the shoulder seasons to avoid starting the wood fire from scratch every day. So the goal from a financial point of view, due to very little intended usage, is the most inexpensive furnace that will need zero repairs over a 25 year period. As I don't intend to run the furnace motor 24/7, motor efficiency, especially variable speed, is not worth paying for either.

The quotes so far are from the largest dealer in the area. They are for the following models:

Lennox SLP98V
Lennox EL296E
Lennox EL195E
AireFlo 95AF2V
AireFlo 95AF

It seems that both Lennox and AireFlo are not well thought of brands from what I can find on the net.

The other major dealer in the area, a fair number of friends don't like, but they might deal in better rated product. So I may be stuck with only being able to optimize the people or the gear, but not both.

Anyone have any specific knowledge re the above, or any general knowledge on gas furnaces?

Cheers, and thanks for any insight.

hboy43


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

We just bought a gas furnace with a propane converter kit to replace a woodstove. We opted to do as a co-worker of my husband...order online from the US. We bought a Goodman, after exchange it was $1,700 plus $212 HST at the border. It will be installed by co-worker's BIL, on the side. It is his day job. 

I don't have current prices for same in Canada, but we replaced the gas furnace in this house (similar BTUs and sq ft) more than 10 years ago it cost $3,300 for a Carrier IIRC. That's why we shopped in the US, the prices in Canada are outrageous compared to the US.


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## spirit (May 9, 2009)

I am a faithful follower of Consumer Reports and will research a purchase till the cows come home..... I too heard that Lennox was not a good brand.

My husband and I were at Costco last summer and they had a promotion on Lennox....we both looked at one another, shrugged and decided to trust the Costco brand. So far, so good......but in about 20 years I will be crossing my fingers on those really really cold days since everything breaks when it is brutally cold outside.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

RCB said:


> I don't have current prices for same in Canada, but we replaced the gas furnace in this house (similar BTUs and sq ft) more than 10 years ago it cost $3,300 for a Carrier IIRC. That's why we shopped in the US, the prices in Canada are outrageous compared to the US.


Lennox and Carrier used to be good, but unfortunately like most Canadian brands these days, somebody out of Canada owns them..
and they are made cheaper than what they used too. Things like electronc controls and heat exchangers are the parts that seem to
have their problems either within the warranty period soon after the warranty expires.
Last about 10+ years. 



> Lennox Furnace Reliability and Repairs.
> 
> In our experience and in talking to other Lennox customers, we have often times been ca*lled out for repairs on relatively new Lennox furnaces, some even less than a year old. Why? From what we can tell, Lennox parts seem to wear out quicker than their competitors. But that’s not all:*
> 
> Probably the biggest disadvantage of purchasing a Lennox furnace is how hard it is to find replacement parts, and these parts are expensive and don’t last as long as competitors.





> Carrier Furnace Reliability and Repairs.carrier vs lennox furnace consumer review of reliability
> 
> The Carrier series furnaces are less likely to break down, in our experience, and if they do it is so much easier to order replacement parts. Usually you can get a Carrier replacement part within hours, which is nice if you’re toughing out a winter in Bozeman, Montana.
> 
> ...


http://asm-air.com/hvac/lennox-vs-carrier-furnace-review/


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

If your oil furnace is still in good condition I would suggest you keep it going. Since you are only using the furnace part-time, your payback period for any new furnace is going to be pretty long, particularly when you have no choice but to buy a condensing furnace now.

Of course, your annual servicing costs on an oil furnace may be high if you're out the country somewhere. A gas furnace should require less frequent maintenance, but will still be expensive to fix if it does breaks down.

I don't think you are likely to get 25 years with no repairs out of any new furnace today, even if your usage rate is low. They just don't make them sufficiently robust. Age, dust, and corrosion will affect the more delicate parts.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> If your oil furnace is still in good condition I would suggest you keep it going. Since you are only using the furnace part-time, your payback period for any new furnace is going to be pretty long, particularly when you have no choice but to buy a condensing furnace now.
> 
> Of course, your annual servicing costs on an oil furnace may be high if you're out the country somewhere. A gas furnace should require less frequent maintenance, but will still be expensive to fix if it does breaks down.
> 
> I don't think you are likely to get 25 years with no repairs out of any new furnace today, even if your usage rate is low. They just don't make them sufficiently robust. Age, dust, and corrosion will affect the more delicate parts.


My gas furnace installed in 1994 is still going strong. It has the customary sensors and a circuit board (that I have a new spare now) and I had a Evergreen DC commutated motor on it about 2 years ago when the electricity rates in Ontario started to climb up.
\
So far after 22 winter heating seasons:
Just the commutating fan motor., which I CHOSE to replace. No other parts required. The next door neighbour has (or had) a Lennox and it seemed to love it's serviceman a LOT.

Mine is a Miller-Nordyne. Not sure if they are still available in Canada. if I was going to replace it someday, I might try a Goodman.


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

The problem with the oil furnace ... Is it is an oil furnace that uses oil. Never ending insurance and inspection hassles. Plus it is ~35 years old. Minimum pending costs of about $1200 for a new tank and inspection.

The other piece is that I am also getting a propane hot water tank and kitchen stove. A combo furnace and electricity reduction exercise. After this piece is done, I will then give consideration to going off grid, as in Ontario, the economics for doing that keep getting better.

Hboy43


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hboy43 said:


> Thanks for your thoughts guys.
> 
> The problem with the oil furnace ... Is it is an oil furnace that uses oil. Never ending insurance and inspection hassles. Plus it is ~35 years old. Minimum pending costs of about $1200 for a new tank and inspection.
> 
> Hboy43


It's the cost of the maintenance inspections and replacement oil tank that speeds up the process of getting off oil.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

hboy43 said:


> ...
> The problem with the oil furnace ... Is it is an oil furnace that uses oil. Never ending insurance and inspection hassles. Plus it is ~35 years old. Minimum pending costs of about $1200 for a new tank and inspection.
> 
> ...


OK. I got the impression from your initial post that it was only 12 years old. But you're right, it's time to change at that age. Changing water heater and stove at the same time makes some sense too. But you may want to check if they will actually work off grid. Most gas appliances have eliminated pilot lights for energy efficiency reasons, and replaced them with electronic controls and igniters. You may need some local power generation to keep them going.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> OK. I got the impression from your initial post that it was only 12 years old. But you're right, it's time to change at that age. Changing water heater and stove at the same time makes some sense too. But you may want to check if they will actually work off grid. Most gas appliances have eliminated pilot lights for energy efficiency reasons, and replaced them with electronic controls and igniters. You may need some local power generation to keep them going.


My owned and self installed HWT has a pilot light that you have to light, but it has never gone out on me, so after 16 years, it is reliable. 

The newer ones have a piezo lighter (like the ones on the BBQs, that stop working after a while), and if the flame goes out, and if you can't restart it with the peizo igniter..it's a service call. But you can use those elcheapo BBQ ignitors to start
it. You have to hold the gas primer button down until the pilot light can keep the gas flowing on it's own. 

The furnaces do require 115Vac to run the electronic control board and the fan motor. A small generator may be required to keep the control board/gas valve active.
The fan motor can draw 850watts on start up. If you need a supplemental heat source that doesn't require power,
a battery operated gas fireplace would be better. They do have a small fan but it draws negligible power..something that a small solar panel system/inverter can easily supply.


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

Just to clarify, off grid is not off electricity. My back of the envelope estimate is $30K to 40K to build my own system. The economics are still weak in that $2K annual electrical bill only gives about 5% return, but it at least after 30 years of watching, I can have the debate.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hboy43 said:


> Just to clarify, off grid is not off electricity. My back of the envelope estimate is $30K to 40K to build my own system. The economics are still weak in that $2K annual electrical bill only gives about 5% return, but it at least after 30 years of watching, I can have the debate.


You don't need a 2 kw system to provide your hydro requirements. The biggest consumption is the fridge (or freezer if you like a lot of frozen food), A/C in the summertime and the furnace fan motor in the wintertime.

Running LED lighting and a few small appliances isn't going to use 2Kw per day.

My hydro bill usage is ranges from 548kwh a month to about 290kwh a month depending on whether it's
winter or summer. That's about 3300kwh in 12 months./12 =275kwh per month averaged out.
9.16kwh over 24hrs. or about $970 worth of billings over 12 months.

Most off grid systems are 1.5 to 2Kw in size and require a bank of 12volt deep cycle batteries for 120 volt operation.
In the US, you can get a 1.7kw system for around $7500. In Canada everything is more expensive.

At my billed total cost for the year even $30K investment would take a long long time for me... about 30 yrs...I won't live that long to enjoy "free electricity". 


My 2015 billings---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dec 12 Jan 14 514Kwh (very cold months!) $85.74
Jan14 Feb 11 570Kwh (very cold month) $94.20
Feb 11 mar 12 446Kwh (very cold still) $75.68 
Mar12 Apr 13 351 Kwh (still quite cool) $62.28 
April 13 May 11 261 kwh (getting warmer) $49.46
Price increase. 
May11 June 9 296kwh (warmer) $55.60
June 9 July 8 285kwh (warm) $55.82 
July 8 Aug 06 404kwh (Hot A/C) $75.32 Aug 6 Sept 3 345Kwh (A/C) $66.34
Sept 3 Oct 2 299kwh (some A/C) $57.43
Nov 2 Nov 30 290 kwh (fall temps/space htrs) $59.13 
Nov 30 Dec 31 314.71 (fall temps/space heaters) $62.40 


Consumption in 2016 my friend living with me temporary from Feb 21 to April ??)
Two Space heaters in Basement (unusually cold march and first 2 weeks of April)
================
Jan 27 - Feb 25 -March 321 kwh cold February------------------ $69.90 

Feb 25 - Mar29 548 kwh cold march (off peak 379 kwh) $106.39
(mid peak 61.6 kwh)
 ( on peak 107kwh)


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## Curiouscreature (Jan 3, 2016)

I recently replaced mine, and found the pricing very similar between most of the mainstream brands, where I found the biggest difference is the warranty. Some outfits offer more free warranty for the labor side of the repairs.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

We had two gas furnaces in our home in Calgary. Not unusual. Both had to be replaced. We had a quote from the Lennox dealer who serviced our existing furnaces. Then I noticed that Costco also did them. So I called, made an appointment for Costco to send someone out.

Guess what? A rep from the same company as we had called before came out. Different person, different division. He proposed gave us the same options on high effieciency gas furnaces. The difference in price on the entire deal going through Costco was $1500. It consisted of a $1000. lower price and a $500. Costco cash card.

What we noticed over a two-three year period after installing the new product. Furnaces came on less often (at first we thought one was not working), they were much quieter, and our winter heating bills were about 15 percent less. The latter is a very rough guestimate because winters in Calgary can be extremely variable.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

fraser said:


> Guess what? A rep from the same company as we had called before came out. Different person, different division. He proposed gave us the same options on high effieciency gas furnaces. The difference in price on the entire deal going through Costco was $1500. It consisted of a $1000. lower price and a $500. Costco cash card.
> 
> What we noticed over a two-three year period after installing the new product. Furnaces came on less often (at first we thought one was not working), they were much quieter, and our winter heating bills were about 15 percent less. The latter is a very rough guestimate because winters in Calgary can be extremely variable.


Sounds like you got a good deal with Costco, with the 95% AFUE high efficiency condensing unit with the DC fan motor. (The annual fuel utilization efficiency (AFUE)

Heating efficiency aside, the other factor is how well your house is insulated and how many BTU based on square footage, windows
and the type of construction of the house (one story or two story)
The furnace will not come on as often, if it produces more heat for a given heat cycle and it's capacity is higher than perhaps
what is normal room temperature.

Heat rises and doesn't necessarily spread out efficiently in a sprawling 2500 sq ft ranch house which could require a supplemental furnace] or heater of some kind on those cold -25C winter nights.

If you over engineer the size of the furnace (in BTUs) for the house, the furnace will only come on in short heating cycles and run more often..this can be uncomfortable depending on how much heat is generated during that heating cycle. 
Smaller furnaces will take longer to heat up the house to desired temperature, but they will be more efficient since the furnace and warm air plenums get up to temperature and stay at that temperature longer.

On short cycles, the furnace has to heat up first and then the heating ducts, so some of it's efficiency is lost initially.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

hboy, you are in Ontario. This is the Ontario government's statement in today's Globe (my highlights added):

_The Ontario government will spend more than $7-billion over four years on a sweeping climate change plan that will affect every aspect of life – from what people drive to how they heat their homes and workplaces – in a bid to slash the province’s carbon footprint.
*Ontario will begin phasing out natural gas for heating*, provide incentives to retrofit buildings and give rebates to drivers who buy electric vehicles. It will also require that gasoline sold in the province contain less carbon, *bring in building code rules requiring all new homes by 2030 to be heated with electricity or geothermal systems*, and set a target for 12 per cent of all new vehicle sales to be electric by 2025._

No natural gas - all electricity?? These guys are totally f*c*ing nuts!!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario-to-spend-7-billion-in-sweeping-climate-change-plan/article30029081/


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> No natural gas - all electricity??


For new homes being built after 2030...that's 15 years from now. I doubt very much that ms. Wynne or her "economic action plan to greenify the province" will be around in 2015, although some parts of it may be considered by the next gov't.

7 Billion..where is the mioney going to come from? From the Ontario consumers and taxpayers.



> Energy officials were particularly concerned about the new Green Bank, contending its functions could be handled by the Independent Electricity System Operator, sources said. Mr. Duguid, meanwhile, was worried about the effect on the auto sector. Mr. Murray also aggravated colleagues with an Economic Club speech last month, in which he chastised auto companies for not doing enough to fight climate change and mused about closing down the province’s nuclear power plants.


Hydro rates are climbing higher and higher every year..but obviously her gov't is not concerned about that. 
Once the cap and trade comes into play, then nat gas prices will rise as well. 

Lots of resellers of electricity and nat gas out there ready to make a profit.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

We had one furnace for the main floor/basement and another for the second floor. We kept the heat low on the second floor. We had a fan in the open hallway. Heat rises and we were only in the bedrooms in the AM and PM. We adjusted the thermostats when we were going to be out for the day.

I cannot imagine even considering moving from gas to electric or oil to electric. Especially in Ontario where Hydro is and has been a complete mess for so many years and looks to be the same going forward.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

carverman said:


> If you over engineer the size of the furnace (in BTUs) for the house, the furnace will only come on in short heating cycles and run more often..this can be uncomfortable depending on how much heat is generated during that heating cycle.
> Smaller furnaces will take longer to heat up the house to desired temperature, but they will be more efficient since the furnace and warm air plenums get up to temperature and stay at that temperature longer.


In addition, having an oversized furnace will generally result in a shorter run life. Counterintuitive for many, the thermal stresses of starting/stopping for often for an oversized furnace will eventually crack the heat exchanger. It's like trying to fill up a glass with a fire hose.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

nobleea said:


> In addition, having an oversized furnace will generally result in a shorter run life. Counterintuitive for many, the thermal stresses of starting/stopping for often for an oversized furnace will eventually crack the heat exchanger. It's like trying to fill up a glass with a fire hose.


I have always understood that the most efficient and long-lived furnace is one so well matched to the heat load of the building that it runs continuously in the heating season.


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## godblsmnymkr (Jul 15, 2015)

how big/what type of space are you heating? that seems very cheap.



carverman said:


> You don't need a 2 kw system to provide your hydro requirements. The biggest consumption is the fridge (or freezer if you like a lot of frozen food), A/C in the summertime and the furnace fan motor in the wintertime.
> 
> Running LED lighting and a few small appliances isn't going to use 2Kw per day.
> 
> ...


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Mukhang pera said:


> I have always understood that the most efficient and long-lived furnace is one so well matched to the heat load of the building that it runs continuously in the heating season.


Sort of. You want it running continuously on the coldest night of the year. Not throughout the heating season as that would likely not be possible. The net heat loss from a building changes substantially throughout the heating season. On a -20C day with no wind and bright sun, you could actually be gaining heat. Compared to -15C at night with howling winds where the heat loss is large. Temperature difference, winds and how well sheltered your house is, solar gain and insulation value of your house all have impacts on the heat loss. If you're building new or doing substantial renovations, you have control over all those things.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

godblsmnymkr said:


> how big/what type of space are you heating? that seems very cheap.


I have a side split. The upstairs where I live is approximately 800 sq ft (22ft x 40 ft) with 2 bedrooms upstairs.
The lower part is 400 sq ft and consists of a 3rd bedroom and a family room, that I don't use, except for the occasional guest. So it is about 1200 plus square feet, but the downstairs being partially below grade and a cement floor is cooler
and takes more to heat in the winter time, but since I don't spend any time down there, I run the furnace about 66F
instead of 72 F upstairs.

My furnace is a 22 yr 80% efficient model, but I had the old 1/2HP fan motor retrofitted with an Evergreen DC commutated fan motor which is far more efficient than the split phase motor that came with i.

There is a separate heating thermostat to keep the downstairs a bit cooler and a gas fireplace upstairs to provide at least
50% of the heat in the winter time. On very cold winter nights, there is a supplemental micro furnace fan heater. 

Two years ago, I had the insulation redone on the upstairs part of the house, replacing the old R12 fiberglass with 3 inches of styrofoam plus spray foam for R20, I think.
That made a big difference in the heating requirement in the last two years.

I just got one fridge, and I don't use the oven much..as a matter of fact, the stove is coming out to be replaced with a cooktop with 3 1200watt elements and a toaster oven to do any minor baking.

So far, my electrical bills are under $1000 a year. 
The nat gas (including fireplace and hot water, about $900+ per year.


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> No natural gas - all electricity?? These guys are totally f*c*ing nuts!!


It is hard to imagine people this stupid. The only other explanation is corruption. There has been plenty of corruption, which supports the corruption theory over stupidity.

Of course the question for me is WTF do I do now? I actually purchased baseboard heaters and setback thermostats, but decided to abandon that idea as electricity is so wildly expensive compared to any other energy in Ontario.

The absolute desperation of Ontarians to be rid of this government grows daily.

hboy43


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

nobleea said:


> Sort of. You want it running continuously on the coldest night of the year. Not throughout the heating season as that would likely not be possible. The net heat loss from a building changes substantially throughout the heating season. On a -20C day with no wind and bright sun, you could actually be gaining heat. Compared to -15C at night with howling winds where the heat loss is large. Temperature difference, winds and how well sheltered your house is, solar gain and insulation value of your house all have impacts on the heat loss. If you're building new or doing substantial renovations, you have control over all those things.


I recognize that finding a unit that will run continuously throughout the heating season and be perfectly matched to the heat load of the building is something that does not likely exist at present. I regret that in my post I came across as a mental midget who required an explanation of such matters as more BTUs being needed to heat the same space on a very cold day as opposed to a mild day, effects of wind, passive solar gain, insulation and other variables. That is why I spoke of the heating appliance being matched to the heat load, which will be continuously variable. An ideal appliance would be equally variable and would sense the varying demand on it. It would continuously match fuel consumption and BTU output in order to maintain a constant building interior temperature, thus running continuously instead of cycling on and off.

In commenting as I have, I have to admit to no expertise in the field. I am repeating the words of an HVAC engineer, spoken many years ago. But, I thought at the time that his words had the ring of common sense. My view has not changed over time, but that view may be wholly erroneous, perhaps aptly described by a slight variation of the Province of Ontario motto: Ut incepit erroneous, sic permanet.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hboy43 said:


> It is hard to imagine people this stupid. The only other explanation is corruption. There has been plenty of corruption, which supports the corruption theory over stupidity.
> 
> Of course the question for me is WTF do I do now? I actually purchased baseboard heaters and setback thermostats, but decided to abandon that idea as electricity is so wildly expensive compared to any other energy in Ontario.
> 
> ...


this will no doubt happen in the next election, but first we need a PC Ontario leader that is more popular than Tim was.
Obviously there is a LOT of money to be made from the Fiberals spending 7Billion or maybe even more, so not everyone is against
them or thinks their ideas on being green are totally stupid.

I don't think we will see the roadside gas stations vanish by 2030, because the range of the electric cars is not as good as
gasoline powered and unlike a 5 minute fillup at any gas station along the way, recharging will take several hours. Can you
picture a faimily with 2 or 3 kids or a baby hanging around a recharge station for 3 hrs? Not going to happen!

In the cities, perhaps, where these vehicles can be charged overnight at the owners home, yes, I can see that happening..
eventually..but for the next few years, with electric cars being far more expensive that what is out there and offered at ZERO
interest..it's not going to happen on a large scale. 

Gas furnaces will continue to be sold because just like electricity, the nat gas infrastructure is already out there. 
So there should be no issue with installing a gas furnace, if the air ducts are already there.

Nat gas, just like any fossil fuel generated electricity..does Ontario have any of those left?...will be subject to a carbon consumption
tax once their plan is implemented. Not much any of us can do about that now..except in the next election, and it is somehow
doubtful that any future provincial gov't will get rid of this "new cash cow" as they drive themselves deeper into debt each year.


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## godblsmnymkr (Jul 15, 2015)

ya i just got my unheated unfinished basement spray foamed. making a big difference so far, as previous owner had only the ceiling insulated (which a building engineer these days would never approve of.) 
my house is 3400 sq ft but minus the basement its probably only 2200 that gets heated. I've paid about $250/month for electricity (running no heat. got down to $200/month not running hot tub) and a ridiculous amount in gas (with a brand new 99% efficient furnace.) i have a lot of windows so i think a lot of cold comes in through them. its 1993 log cabin. 



carverman said:


> I have a side split. The upstairs where I live is approximately 800 sq ft (22ft x 40 ft) with 2 bedrooms upstairs.
> The lower part is 400 sq ft and consists of a 3rd bedroom and a family room, that I don't use, except for the occasional guest. So it is about 1200 plus square feet, but the downstairs being partially below grade and a cement floor is cooler
> and takes more to heat in the winter time, but since I don't spend any time down there, I run the furnace about 66F
> instead of 72 F upstairs.
> ...


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> No natural gas - all electricity?? These guys are totally f*c*ing nuts!!
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario-to-spend-7-billion-in-sweeping-climate-change-plan/article30029081/


We have lived in an all-electric home for past 38 years. Originally just baseboard heaters, but with individual thermostats. That allowed for room by room energy consumption to be controlled - something most gas systems cannot do. 

That worked fine until electricity prices in Ontario started to skyrocket (which coincided with privatization brought in by a previous brilliant government). However, at the time, there was a federal energy incentive program, initiated by the Liberals, but continued by the Conservatives. It only really covered the taxes on upgrades, but we spent about $20k on a high efficiency air source heat pump (using existing A/C ducts), improved insulation and other items. This cut our energy usage in half. We still have our baseboard heaters, but we have fuses pulled because they are not needed. Electricity at 50% off list price isn't so bad 

At first glance, electricity may not make sense. But only if it is used inefficiently. Installing ground source (geothermal) heat pumps for new homes makes a lot of sense. We are all sitting on a low emission source of heating, so why burn valuable resources that emit greenhouse gases? BTW, the timeline for the change in building codes in 2030. A lot can happen before then. 

Geothermal is a fast growing industry world wide for centralized energy production. Many projects under way. Wonder if the program includes Geothermal power generation?


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

agent99 said:


> ... At first glance, electricity may not make sense...


What does't make sense is gutting existing natural gas supply, pipe and installations to replace it with electricity. Natural gas is a clean fuel. Do people really think electricity comes from benign sources? Whether is is wind, solar, hydro or nuclear - there are impacts throughout the supply chain in using those sources as well. Let's not even consider whether this is occurring at a global level - as it would to have any real impact.
Glen Murray is either stupid or gullible.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Let's not even consider whether this is occurring at a global level - as it would to have any real impact.
> .


IT IS.

See Appendix P2153 for summary: http://www.geothermal-energy.org/pdf/IGAstandard/WGC/1995/3-curtis.pdf


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Interesting argument here and pro/con natural gas vs electricity.

I understand the need for a vision on clean enerty and conservation of natural resources as well as the impact of burning fossil fuels on the environment.
While so far temperatures in this May 2016,seem more like March, the overall temperature has risen by 1 degree which could be attributed to global warming.

Ontario's electric supply is running at nearly full capacity. Nuclear, hydro electric dams are the main supply and wind farms a very smart part of it.
Most of the rivers have been dammed already, so there isn't much untapped rivers out there unless we are talking James Bay. The transmission
infrastructure to get it from point A to point B is very costly to build these days, and privatization will make it even more costly, since private enterprise (unlike the old Ontario Hydro), is not subsidized by the province, so rates will be continually going up each year. 

It makes sense that Ontario has some kind of vision for the future to anticipate and accommodate population growth.

However, if the hydro generators can't build any more nuclear or power dams, and wind farms are not received very well, what are the options for heating?

Cut down on use of electricity using nat gas as a heating source or force consumers to use electricity only and raise the prices per kwh depending on Time of Use?

At what point will consumers say enough is enough! with prices going up and up on electricity to heat their homes in the cold winter months? 

Electricity was cheap by comparison in the 70s when a lot of "all electric" homes were built here in Ottawa..5 cents per kwh and that was 24/7. Now we have TOU and other charges such as HST which drive up the monthly hydro bill substantially. 
Some of the residents in these local "all electric" homes have turned down their baseboard heaters and installed a gas
fireplace and a gas hot water heater..why? because heating and hot water is the biggest consumption of electricity
and that reflects on the monthly bill. 



> 4:00 PM	5:00 PM	on-peak rate *18 cents/kWh*
> 5:00 PM	6:00 PM	mid-peak rate 13.2 cents/kWh
> 6:00 PM	7:00 PM
> 7:00 PM	8:00 PM	off-peak rate 8.7 cents/kWh


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

Sure is odd that if they want to promote electricity over gas, they doubled electricity over what, 5,7 years. The irony is that if they had not done that, electricity and propane would be approximately the same cost and I would therefore choose electricity on a lower capital cost and maintenance basis.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hboy43 said:


> Sure is odd that if they want to promote electricity over gas, they doubled electricity over what, 5,7 years. The irony is that if they had not done that, electricity and propane would be approximately the same cost and I would therefore choose electricity on a lower capital cost and maintenance basis.


I would go with the most economical solution for you. 
Don't be concerned about the gov't trying to abolish use of fossil fuels.

Industry can't do that. Factories and restaurants etc; will continue to use gas well into the next 50 years...
long after Mz Wynne and her cohorts are gone.

Besides, Enbridge gas has a huge infrastructure now in most cities. So they are not about to have the Ont Fiberals take the wind out of their sales (pun intended) for some futuristic green scheme/global warming. If they tried, Enbridge would take them to court and win.
Now for new developments, that may be different within 15-25 years. With better insulation and heat efficient furnaces rather than inefficient baseboard heaters, it may still be economically feasible (maybe) even if electricity rates keep rising over the next 15-20 years.

The big question is how much DAMAGE to industry Mz. Wynne and her green energy cohorts will cause if industry
has to pay the same comparable (peak demand) rates. I can see some factories closing down and moving because
of excessive energy costs. 

ie: Peak use: 18c NOW -> 20c->22c-> 25 cents per kwh.

In the US,some states are already approaching those prices but not all states.
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/10/27/141766341/the-price-of-electricity-in-your-state

and in Quebec

http://www.hydroquebec.com/resident...nding-bill/comparison-electricity-prices.html


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

I find it interesting that in Ontario the power company is called 'Hydro One' (formerly Ontario Hydro) when I see that about 50% of the power is generated by Nukes. Why didn't they call it Nuclear One? Oh that's because Hydro One sounds better. Someone tried to promote a Nuke in Alberta to help power the Oil Sands and that got run out because of the environmental risks associated with a Nuke. Funny how that isn't discussed much and the new 'enemy' is natural gas. 

And no one has talked about the real reasons for the privatization of our utilities which has added costs to the consumer because the private companies need a 30% profit to pay the Exec's bonuses and the shareholders dividends etc. Where did the money from the sale go? Consumers used to own the utilities, and now they're owned buy private, for profit, companies. In Alberta, our transmission lines are now owned by Warren Buffet. He knows how to make money! But privatization was sold to us as a good thing. All it did was raise our power rates. 

I went to a home show in Calgary recently to inquire about an upgrade to my 1987 vintage furnace to a new one. Quote was $5000 for a Lennox. So the yearly costs for that are say 5% for the capital cost ($250) PLUS the 'required' $150 for an inspection to maintain the warranty. So that is $400 in added costs that I don't have now and would have to be offset by gas savings. My yearly gas consumption is 120 GJ's. In the summer I burn about 30 GJ's and that is for water heating. So the difference is 90 GJ's for heat (some assumptions of course). The average cost of delivered GJ's is about $10/GJ. So assuming the new furnace will be about 40% more efficient, that will save about 36 GJ's. At $10/GJ delivered, that is a savings of $360. Not hard for me to do the math here - the new furnace will be a bit more expensive over the year and from what I hear, much less reliable then after 10 years when the warranty is over, costs will really go up as circuit boards start to fail. I can fix my old furnace easily and it has been very reliable. Also I have to consider that I run my hot tub with gas rather than electricity (converted to run with a heat exchanger across the hot water tank and that is included in consumption data and won't go away and is MUCH cheaper to run than when it was heating with electricity). I took my consumption data to the home show and presented the data to the sales guy. He said he agreed with me about costs, had never really seen actual consumption data and said I should run my furnace as long as I can. Then he asked me for a copy of my data because he also wondered about the economics. If gas went a lot higher in cost, it might pay, but then there is the reliability factor. But sNotley is trying to make it more expensive with the Carbon tax - but it's still not worth it IMO. That problem will go away at the next election hopefully. Carbon tax also will be on electricity too. I prefer the Home Reno tax credit that was available a few years back. It they were really interested in reducing carbon consumption, to me, that would be a better approach. The carbon issue is just another tax grab and we're supposed to feel good about it.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Brian K said:


> But sNotley is trying to make it more expensive with the Carbon tax - but it's still not worth it IMO. That problem will go away at the next election hopefully. Carbon tax also will be on electricity too. I prefer the Home Reno tax credit that was available a few years back. It they were really interested in reducing carbon consumption, to me, that would be a better approach. The carbon issue is just another tax grab and we're supposed to feel good about it.


Regardless of what happens next election, that carbon tax is here to stay. Most other jurisdictions will likely follow with some variation and governments of all stripes are loathe to get rid of taxes despite what some might say.


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

> Quote was $5000 for a Lennox.


Canadians are absolutely hosed on furnace prices. This is why we chose to order one online, and pay someone to install. Less than half the price even after delivery, exchange, HST at the border, etc.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Re carbon tax - yes it is the 'tax-du-jour' and is perceived as being popular and we're supposed to feel that we're making a difference. But of course it as well as other sources or revenue, will go into general revenue. Who shoots the cash cow? Not politicians for sure.

Furnaces prices - RCB - what do you do about warranty or have you saved enough to say to hell with it. Probably getting something from the US is a good thing to look into. And at the same time - order some spare parts like a circuit board and fan motor and maybe some switches especially if you can change the parts yourself.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> I find it interesting that in Ontario the power company is called 'Hydro One' (formerly Ontario Hydro) when I see that about 50% of the power is generated by Nukes. Why didn't they call it Nuclear One? Oh that's because Hydro One sounds better. Someone tried to promote a Nuke in Alberta to help power the Oil Sands and that got run out because of the environmental risks associated with a Nuke. Funny how that isn't discussed much and the new 'enemy' is natural gas.


My understanding is that Nuclear is the most expensive way of generating electricity for Ontario. Ontario OPG has a nuclear facility at Darlington just east of Oshawa. It has been very expensive to build, maintain and retrofit, which they have to do every few years.
Building a new nuclear power plant, never mind the long term storage issue for spent fuel, is extremely expensive for OPG.
This is before the start of privitization by Mz Wynne and her cohorts. Now as they sell off more and more of the Ontario electricity production and grid, the share owners may contemplate some nuclear investment..but it's a long road in the planning process.



> And no one has talked about the real reasons for the privatization of our utilities which has added costs to the consumer because the private companies need a 30% profit to pay the Exec's bonuses and the shareholders dividends etc. Where did the money from the sale go? Consumers used to own the utilities, and now they're owned buy private, for profit, companies. In Alberta, our transmission lines are now owned by Warren Buffet. He knows how to make money! But privatization was sold to us as a good thing. All it did was raise our power rates.


Privatization is just a way for the provincial gov't to get out off business in utilities because the costs of operating (ie fat salaries/pension plans) and the debt load is considered too much, out of control, and the current gov't takes the money from the sale (which is supposed to pay off the deficit/debt) and shoves it "down the black hole" of gov't run operations. 

Is there any accountability with these kinds of decisions?
I haven't seen any information from Wynne's gov't to tell us consumers, that the billions raised from partial sale of ONtario Hydro has decreased our deficit by X billion. 




> I went to a home show in Calgary recently to inquire about an upgrade to my 1987 vintage furnace to a new one. Quote was $5000 for a Lennox. So the yearly costs for that are say 5% for the capital cost ($250) PLUS the 'required' $150 for an inspection to maintain the warranty. So that is $400 in added costs that I don't have now and would have to be offset by gas savings. My yearly gas consumption is 120 GJ's. In the summer I burn about 30 GJ's and that is for water heating. So the difference is 90 GJ's for heat (some assumptions of course). The average cost of delivered GJ's is about $10/GJ. So assuming the new furnace will be about 40% more efficient, that will save about 36 GJ's. At $10/GJ delivered, that is a savings of $360. Not hard for me to do the math here - the new furnace will be a bit more expensive over the year and from what I hear, much less reliable then after 10 years when the warranty is over, costs will really go up as circuit boards start to fail. I can fix my old furnace easily and it has been very reliable.


I buy my gas by CU3. so it's hard for me to relate to GJ, but let me say this..My 22 year old 85% efficient furnace (it has a power venter exhaust stack to the roof) cost me practically nothing to operate per year in terms of maintenance. 

A couple years ago to save electricity on heating/cooling, I replaced the old split phase 1/2 hp fan motor with a 30% more efficient DC commutated motor (Evergreen), and although the cost of the motor + installation hasn't brought any real savings, (at least so far), until it's paid off in less electricity consumption, it is more efficient in that regard.

Last fall, I had a problem with it not running reliably.called in a freelance service tech that cleaned the flame sensor but could not find the source of the intermittent problem, so ordered a complete control board..another $400 expense as it had to come from the US and with shipping/exchange double the US price..but now I have it. Because I had control of my situation, nobody from a HVAC contractor was able to condemn it..in order to sell me a brand new $5000 furnace.

I found the problem myself ..it was a dirty inter connnecting plug-connector contacts. I blew it out with compressed air and used contact cleaner. Iit's been reliable all winter. So as long as it is running reliably, why should I have to replace it for another more modern $5000 condensing furnace that has a yearly overhead? 



> The carbon issue is just another tax grab and we're supposed to feel good about it.


Ah but don't you feel good about helping out the environment in your own way..by paying more and getting less?

Carbon tax here in Ontario is another way for the gov't to generate revenue..nothing will be done to eliminate green house gases.
Again, the ONT Fiberals are at it again. Cap and Trade will just push up the cost of energy (nat gas/gasoline/electricity) to the consumer, because Industry will not eat up any costs associated with it, since the number are massive!

When the cap and trade figures start to factor into production, the prices to consumer will creep up and up. 
Nobody cares about greenhouse gases in Dec/Jan/Feb and maybe March, when its' -25C. You burn carbon fuels to stay warm!


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

An internet search indicates that 1 GJ = 26.137 M3. Gas is cheap now - however 'the rest of the story' is all the other charges like transaction and delivery fees and of course the taxes that are so nicely broken out for us. The bottom line is the final cost.
Seems that we are on the same page as far as the rhetoric we receive and swallow from our esteemed leaders who know what is best for us. 
For what it's worth, I find on your vintage furnace, that those induced draft fans that blow the exhaust gas up the chimney last about 12-15 years then should be replaced (or take it somewhere to get the bearings changed which is much cheaper than a new blower.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> An internet search indicates that 1 GJ = 26.137 M3. Gas is cheap now - however 'the rest of the story' is all the other charges like transaction and delivery fees and of course the taxes that are so nicely broken out for us. The bottom line is the final cost.
> Seems that we are on the same page as far as the rhetoric we receive and swallow from our esteemed leaders who know what is best for us.
> For what it's worth, I find on your vintage furnace, that those induced draft fans that blow the exhaust gas up the chimney last about 12-15 years then should be replaced (or take it somewhere to get the bearings changed which is much cheaper than a new blower.


We consumers in Ontario are being led down the garden path by the former pedagogue that is doing things according to those that want her to do.. what THEY want her to do.
I don't have any faith in her..it's all hot air and rhetoric. Today I found out the Ontario Teachers Unions received $80 million since 2000 with no accountability on how that money was spent. Bribe money from a former teacher now placed in a key
gov't position...the Premier of Ontario. 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...s-since-2000-auditor-general/article30074279/



I thought about changing the bearings and the split phase motor start cap, but a 1/2 HP motor does draw about 10 amps at 115vac.
Translated into kwh ..10 amps at 120 vac is about 1200 watts..over an hour of use (if the fan motor runs that long..which it doesn't
for heating, but possible for A/C ), it's 1.2kwh. 

Now the Evergreen motor is about $300 + $150 installation = $ 450 . It is supposed to be 30% more efficient over the
older split phase fan motors.

Currently the cost is 17.5 kwh energy (peak use) (offset bid mid peak and off peak + delvery +hst = final cost works out to about
19.0 c kwh. REAL COST for 548kwh in a given 30 day period.



> 10A to watts calculation with voltage of 120V AC
> For AC power supply, watts are equal to the power factor times amps times volts.
> watts = PF × amps × volts
> For resistive load without inductors or capacitors, the power factor is equal to 1:
> watts = 1 × 10A × 120V = 1200W


Is there any real savings considering retrofit costs for the average home owner?



> There were certainly substantial electric power reductions with the new motors. Average fan
> power reductions were approximately 126 Watts during heating and 220 Watts during cooling
> operation.
> Over the course of entire heating and cooling seasons, these translate into modest
> ...



My furnace is 22 yrs old and has been very reliable, except for an igniter failure after 19 years. That cost me a couple
hundred for an emergency service call since I didn't have a spare, but I have one now.
Will my 22 year old furnace last another 10 years with the Evergreen motor retrofit? Probably, as long as the heat
exchanger doesn't develop cracks.

If I hadn't upgraded the fan motor, and put in a new furnace instead, which would require a new A-coil for cooling, as probably the current A coil would not fit..it would cost me at least $5000 to retrofit a new 95% efficiency furnace with a yearly maintenance plan.

If I just continue to live in my house for another 10 years...cost of furnace retrofit is $500 per year + maintenance plan ($200)..
..Is there any savings realized with the new furnace, even if it is more efficient at 95% over my mid efficient 85% current furnace?

I don't think so.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

The motor you changed was the blower - not the induced draft fan which is a small fractional HP motor. Interesting that the new Evergreen motor is that much more efficient than the old one. But you are very correct in understanding the total cost of delivered power being about 0.19 cents per Kwhr. Even at your 3 tiered cost of power - it is still very expensive even at the minimum rate. My overall cost of power is about $0.16 cents per kWhr delivered and will go up once new Transmission costs filter down to us so we can provide Warren Buffet more profit. We don't have a tiered rate system. I wish we did. I don't mind scheduling my usage but no point (yet).
I converted my house to LED light from the incandescent and some CFL's. The LED's use much less power than incandescent. My monthly consumption is about 550 kWhrs now and is down from about 800 when my hot tub was running on power not gas. We don't run the electric dryer much and use a small counter top oven rather than the large stove oven. 


Agreed - the politicians just tell people what they want to hear (and to make you feel good about a new tax). That's how the new Fiberals got in too - empty promises and future debt that will cost my kids $$$.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> The motor you changed was the blower - not the induced draft fan which is a small fractional HP motor.


 I've never had to replace the inducer motor..just put couple drops of motor oil on the front sleeve (which requires it to be pulled out partially) and on the back sleeve bearing...it keeps on working and working after 22 yrs. :biggrin:



> Interesting that the new Evergreen motor is that much more efficient than the old one.


Apparently it has some kind of solid state control built in...it has a slow ramp up to speed and a longer ramp down. 



> I converted my house to LED light from the incandescent and some CFL's. The LED's use much less power than incandescent. My monthly consumption is about 550 kWhrs now and is down from about 800 when my hot tub was running on power not gas. We don't run the electric dryer much and use a small counter top oven rather than the large stove oven.


I've got CFLs right now..will be converting to LEDs as soon as the ones I have burn out. LEDs are coming down in price this year.
Noticed that at CTC. I think the CFL and the mercury disposal issue has a lot to do with this.Nobody wants to take used CFLs or the long tubes for disposal any more..there is no money in it for them. 

Just threw out my 20 year old 4 burner stove..it was still working but it was time to get an efficient cooktop and a compact countertop convection oven. The oven is perfect for me and doesn't use much power at all for roasting. The cooktop is a German made brand called SUMMIT. It has a glass ceramic top with 3 1200watt elements. Very efficient too...and the best
part..it's SIMPLE! No complicated electronic modules to fail or burn out! 
Sorry appliance repair guys, but you won't be making any money off me on the cooktop.


...well except for the Danby fridge ..after the 18 month warranty period. Hopefully it will be reliable too. 

Just got a 9.9 cuft Danby apt size fridge to replace my 22 cuft fridge. The main reason is trying to manuever in my galley style kitchen with a wheelchair..bump, scratch, gouge! ..due to insufficient turning around room..now it's a lot better for me ..and as a bonus..I'm saving electriciy..as Mz Wynne keeps raising hydro rates every 6 months or so.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

I was at a friends house a while ago and he showed me his old induced draft fan that the repair guy replaced. The fan motor was getting really hot and screeching so it was replaced. I took it and lubed the bearings and it is fine again and great as a spare. I mentioned that it needed oil and he said the repair guy said they don't touch those motors and NOT to oil it. Funny though - stamped on the motor was "Oil Monthly"! No wonder it failed after 10 years. So a little oil on those goes a long way and that is why yours is still going.
We still have our old 1983 vintage stove. Every thing works on it. I don't think that they have made an 'energy efficient' burner yet so here it stays. WE mostly use the microwave and the small toaster oven as our need arises. 

Kitchens are not wheelchair friendly!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> I was at a friends house a while ago and he showed me his old induced draft fan that the repair guy replaced. The fan motor was getting really hot and screeching so it was replaced. I took it and lubed the bearings and it is fine again and great as a spare. I mentioned that it needed oil and he said the repair guy said they don't touch those motors and NOT to oil it. Funny though - stamped on the motor was "Oil Monthly"! No wonder it failed after 10 years. *So a little oil on those goes a long way and that is why yours is still going.*


A couple of drops of oil goes long way on these bronze sleeve motors. I can do it even from my wheelchair downstairs. 

Of course the repairman will tell you "don't touch it..you are not HVAC qualified... and if something should go wrong.....boom!"
It's the same thing that they tell you about cleaning the flame sensor...don't do it..get a maintenance contract and we will clean it for you and test your furnace for proper operation..and if your furnace is 18 yrs old, it may have..*or probably has.*.cracks in the heat exchanger" . Let us give you a quote on replacing it.:biggrin:



> We still have our old 1983 vintage stove. Every thing works on it. I don't think that they have made an 'energy efficient' burner yet so here it stays. WE mostly use the microwave and the small toaster oven as our need arises.
> 
> Mine is circa 1996. I can't open the oven door any more as the wheelchair is in the way, so it's hard to justify keeping a 20 yrs old oven when you can only realistically use the stove top. The other problem with the old spiral burners is cleaning underneath them if the soup spills over.
> 
> ...


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

carverman said:


> We still have our old 1983 vintage stove. snip
> 
> Do that roast and use the top element every second day in the month and that's $1.;25 x 15 days = $18.75 a month for just using the stove top and the oven. Of course, it is considerably cheaper with just using the stove top elements..but it just goes to show you that the conventional stove/oven designed 50 years ago or more, was not ever intended to be energy efficient. Electricity was so cheap back then.


Got me thinking - How many of those with gas furnaces use electricity for cooking?


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Electric heat is extremely inefficient any way you cut it. Watts is watts. Also think of the inefficiency of the whole electric system. Transmission wires heat up as I*I *Resistance.
DC transmission is better, but then you need the conversion facilities at both ends and that puts harmonics on the system and that is expensive and causes problems too.

I've seen a conversion that 1 GJ = 277 KWhr. A delivered GJ costs me about $10. 277 Kwhr costs 277 * $0.16 = $44 (more in Ontario at $0.19) . And that is about the saving I experienced after converting my hot tub to run on gas. I figure I used to pay about $70 per month to run a hot tub, now it is more like $15-20 on gas. (Ask a hot tub salesman what it costs and they say about $30 per month but that is based on about 6-8 cents per kwhr - they don't want to scare you away).

Want to save money - install a gas stove and a gas dryer (but only if they need to be replaced). Too bad we can't buy a gas fridge like they have in RV's. I also can't understand why people think electric cars are so green. Someone still has to pay for the electricity and it's not green unless you have complete electric generation via hydro generation (like BC). But building those dams cost lots more than a gas power plant not to mention the flooded land. Northern Quebec where the James Bay facilities were built destroyed/devastated lots of boreal forest - but no one sees that except some caribou and the new lakes look so nice.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Also - when wondering about gas furnaces and electric cooking - what about electric water heaters? A few years ago when venting codes changed, new home builders were installing electric water heaters rather than gas HWT's because of confusing venting rules and the cheaper cost of the electric tank and installation. 

I still have an electric stove because running a gas line to the kitchen would cost a lot because the basement ceiling under the kitchen has drywall on it. But I'd love to get a gas stove - just not willing to pay the $1000 installation cost of a gas line because of the finished basement. One day perhaps if the stove craps out - but I can fix it so that is not likely going to happen.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Brian K - I don't know about your numbers. Once the electricity leaves the generating station, the transmission losses will be at most 10% (7-8% average in USA). There are of course high efficiency losses in the generating station. That is why Ontario's target mix of Nuclear and non fossil fuel based generation (with say 25% from NG) is a good one. Efficiency losses in fossil fuel plants result in increases in greenhouse gases, but not in hydro/solar/wind installations.

It is not all about saving ourselves money. There is the cost of turning our underground resources into heat and then into CO2 which in time could result in very high expenses for someone. We are all selfish and do what is best for us individually. That is why governments unfortunately do need to get involved. And they don't always make good decisions!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> Also - when wondering about gas furnaces and electric cooking - what about electric water heaters? A few years ago when venting codes changed, new home builders were installing electric water heaters rather than gas HWT's because of confusing venting rules and the cheaper cost of the electric tank and installation.


Stay away from electric water heaters, while they are cheaper to install, all you need is two 25 amp (or is that 30 amp?) breakers to run the two elements in the heater, but if you use a lot of hot water, these tanks are energy hogs and you will have a high electric bill.

Typically as long as the incoming water temperature is not as cold as in the winter time and you don't use too much hot water for showers or baths, only the bottom element (3000 watts is on). 

Each element is 5500 watts: Label shows Two 5500 Watt elements @240V
Each element is rated 4125 watts when connected to 208V instead of 240V
Total connected 5500 watts means both elements are never ON at same time.


*Formula for heating water inside tank:*
Gallon Per Hour (Electric) = (KW x 3413) divided by (temp. rise x 8.25) or (KW x 414) divided by (temp rise.)
*Let's say you have 5500 watt elements.*
Let's say incoming water temperature is 65°F and you want to heat tank to 105°, or 40° rise in temperature.

5500 watt or 5.5Kw elements (at 240 volts) x 3413 = 18771.5
*40 degree temperature rise x 8.25 = 330*
So in this specific situation, *each element would heat 56.88 gallons per hour *

Now if elements are hooked up to a 208 electric supply the elements get reduced to 4125 watts instead of 5500 watts (5.5kw) So if it's in the middle of winter and the cold water supply is below 55F and you want to heat the water *60USgal tank) to 120 F...
at 5500 watts combined for both lower and upper elements, (One element will take about an hour to heat 28 gallons), and depending on hot water usage...heat loss from the tank, the energy consumption would be roughly 5.5kwh x 19c/kwh = $1.05 approx to heat roughly 40 US gallons in that tank to 120 degrees F.

The water heating cost and recovery is cheaper and a lot faster with a gas water heater.



> I still have an electric stove because running a gas line to the kitchen would cost a lot because the basement ceiling under the kitchen has drywall on it. But I'd love to get a gas stove - just not willing to pay the $1000 installation cost of a gas line because of the finished basement. One day perhaps if the stove craps out - but I can fix it so that is not likely going to happen.


I got a recent quote to run about 10 feet of copper gas line from the tap on my HWT over to the wall where my electric stove was.

Assorted fittings plus flex stove connector parts $170. Labour $195. Taxes and travelling. Totals about $429.
However the existing range hood does not meet gas codes, and would have to be moved up to 36 inches which means modifying the upper cabinet with the exhaust hood. Another $200 plus, and then you will need a 120volt electrical outlet for the timer/clock and lights on the gas stove. Another $200 to get an electrician to run that in. 

Yes,Brian, when it's all said and done, close $830 for my gas line, electrical line and exhaust hood upgrade.

Then there is the cost of the gas range..cheapest I found was about $1000. 
So I bought an electric cooktop for $800 instead.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Agent 99 - what numbers are you wondering about. The only one I got somewhere else (a smart phone app) was the 1 GJ = 277 kwhrs. The app is called 'Convert Everything' if you're interested and for the things I looked at, it was correct so I have no reason to question the energy conversion. The other numbers are from data I have gathered from measurements and observations in my home and utility bills. The Transmission line losses are in heat - Current squared times resistance - so the higher the current (which gets squared), the higher the line losses. That winter heating (high loads can reduce ice buildup). That is a known equation.

I, for one, don't believe the government folks are the right ones to be our moral authority. For laws relating to societal function, fine, but I don't believe they should meddle in other things. I saw a documentary on the wind turbines in Ontario - wow are the landowners p!ssed. The constant womp womp womp noise is driving them nuts - oh but it is green power if you forget about the cost of building them. Then there are the bird kills. And 50% of Ontario's power is from the Nukes - oh that is green especially if you consider the cost to get rid of the waste! Bury it or shoot it at the sun. The governments' focus seems to be to generate money from us, and think it is theirs to spend as they want - not as I want. This whole green carbon tax is simply a way to generate more tax revenue while telling us it will make a difference. One big volcano will put lots of CO into the atmosphere. If they were serious about carbon reduction (it that is the problem some think it is), they would encourage that with tax rebates to make things cost effective to do it. Now they are just increasing my cost of living. Taxing necessities (and in Canada heating is a necessity I believe) is a cash cow and another sales tax in disquise and the fiberals are good at that. I'm not against reduction in pollution and other bad stuff going into the atmosphere. But the rhetoric is getting out of hand - IMO. I guess we will agree to disagree.

Carverman. I forgot about the requirement for a hood fan over the gas stove. That I believe was a recent code change. Our neighbours had a counter top gas cooktop and it didn't have a hood fan (horrors - they ran it for 25 years with no issues) and when the house sold, the new owners had to install a hood fan - probably a home inspector recommendation. Makes me wonder what might happen if you don't turn it on. I have a friend who has the gas stove and a gas dryer. He vents the gas dryer into the crawl space (no I don't recommend that) and he hasn't had any sort of CO alarm because of that. What's the difference between that and the stove/cooktop? No one has that answer. All is good if the combustion is complete. It is incomplete combustion (yellow flame), that causes problems with CO generation. I went over to a friends house once and the vent from the hot water tank had fallen down so the exhaust was going into the house. This probably (?) happened shortly after installation which was about a year before we reconnected the vent. No Co alarms either. I remember having a tent trailer years ago with a propane heater with open flame inside. I'm still alive for some reason. Of course I'm not saying these are safe condition, but it's probably not as bad as people are scared into believing. Most CO poisonings are from people running generators and BBQ's in garages during power outages from what I have read. The web site below is very interesting.
http://carbonmonoxidemyths.com/


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Brian K said:


> But the rhetoric is getting out of hand


No disagreement there


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> Carverman. I forgot about the requirement for a hood fan over the gas stove. That I believe was a recent code change. Our neighbours had a counter top gas cooktop and it didn't have a hood fan (horrors - they ran it for 25 years with no issues) and when the house sold, the new owners had to install a hood fan - probably a home inspector recommendation. Makes me wonder what might happen if you don't turn it on. I have a friend who has the gas stove and a gas dryer. He vents the gas dryer into the crawl space (no I don't recommend that) and he hasn't had any sort of CO alarm because of that. What's the difference between that and the stove/cooktop? No one has that answer. All is good if the combustion is complete. It is incomplete combustion (yellow flame), that causes problems with CO generation. I went over to a friends house once and the vent from the hot water tank had fallen down so the exhaust was going into the house. This probably (?) happened shortly after installation which was about a year before we reconnected the vent. No Co alarms either. I remember having a tent trailer years ago with a propane heater with open flame inside. I'm still alive for some reason. Of course I'm not saying these are safe condition, but it's probably not as bad as people are scared into believing. Most CO poisonings are from people running generators and BBQ's in garages during power outages from what I have read. The web site below is very interesting.
> http://carbonmonoxidemyths.com/


The requirements are that for a 36 inch wide gas stove, the hood has to be 36 inches above the stove burner surface these days. My electric stove is about 26 inches and did not meet the current standard.

I remember camping in a tent trailer years ago. We had a Coleman catalytic propane heater. Flameless heat. I often wondered if there was any CO associated, but in a tent trailer, everything is well ventilated, so it may not have been a problem in a tent.
but who knows what disaster could have struck if it was attempted to be used inside an enclosed building..

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Coleman-BlackCat-PerfecTemp-Catalytic-Heater/13228605



> *CO Emissions*
> When the catalytic heater was operated at the test conditions specified in the standard for infrared
> radiant camp heaters (ANSI Z21.63), the steady state CO concentration ranged from 67 ppm to 109 ppm.
> Steady state was achieved in approximately 2 to 6 hours, depending on the air exchange rate. *Since the
> ...


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

I guess my hood fan doesn't meet the current standard - it too is about 26" above the cooktop. I wonder why the change - maybe so I don't hit my head on it. Now the cabinet above the vent fan will become even more difficult to reach.

I looked into a natural gas garage heater a few years ago - one that didn't need venting. I was concerned about the buildup of humidity but apparently CO wasn't an issue - I also wonder why. I went with a typical ceiling mount in the end.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> I guess my hood fan doesn't meet the current standard - it too is about 26" above the cooktop. I wonder why the change - maybe so I don't hit my head on it. Now the cabinet above the vent fan will become even more difficult to reach.


The cabinet (22H x 28 wide) above my electric range hood is next to useless for storing anything except old bills. The vent pipe enclosure 12 inches wide by 8 inches deep takes up most of the cabinet. To move the existing range hood up 14 inches would mean taking it down and trimming 14 inches off it, leaving a useless 8 inchH cabinet.
Not to mention the expense of making a new one, or modifying the existing one.



> I looked into a natural gas garage heater a few years ago - one that didn't need venting. I was concerned about the buildup of humidity but apparently CO wasn't an issue - I also wonder why. I went with a typical ceiling mount in the end.


My brother out west, has a motorcycle garage which is part of his living quarters attached to it at the back. He has one of those ceiling heaters in the garage the same way you mention, but his is vented.



> Specific vent pipe routing is required. Gravity vented heaters operate on the principle that hot air rises. Vertical venting through the roof of your garage is preferred. Sidewall venting is more difficult. Venting through a roof can become more expensive since you need to completely weatherproof the hole in the roof. The manufacturer’s detailed installation instructions must be followed closely.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Yes - my garage heater is power vented as well with a small induced draft fan - but out through the wall using 4" 'B' vent on a slight slope to allow condensation to drain outside. Works very well and sometimes in the winter I have an 8 foot icicle from the ground up. I didn't want a hole in the garage tin roof either.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Is that 36" measurement above the stove top measured to the top of the fan or the bottom of it? 
I'm guessing it is to the top of the fan (or bottom of the upper cabinet) because then any time you changed the fan to a possible different height one....you'd have to move the cabinet depending on the fan height - PITA.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> Is that 36" measurement above the stove top measured to the top of the fan or the bottom of it?
> I'm guessing it is to the top of the fan (or bottom of the upper cabinet) because then any time you changed the fan to a possible different height one....you'd have to move the cabinet depending on the fan height - PITA.


I would think to the top of the fan/filter/hood. Most fan hoods are 6 to 8 inches high, so with a 30 inch height to the bottom of the fan,
the cabinet would have to be at 36 inches above the stove top. Most venting fan hoods attach to the bottom of the upper 30 inch
cabinet that is specifically for the range.



> Ventilation Code (CAN/CSA-F326 Residential Mechanical Ventilation Systems)
> 
> While gas ranges are approved for direct venting into the home, the ventilation code for newer homes requires a range hood of at least 100 cfm (cubic feet per minute) exhausting capacity to be installed above a standard 30" gas range or cook top. New homes containing combustion appliances also require carbon monoxide (CO) detectors, but many older homes do not have CO detectors. While today’s gas ranges and cook tops are very clean burning, there is a lot of moisture and some combustion byproducts that are best vented directly outside. Therefore range hoods should be used and CO detectors installed for the safest appliance operation.


here's a good link with some measurements and pictures..\
http://users.trytel.com/~mshurben/range.html


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## Homer (Dec 28, 2017)

*Many Propane Furnaces*



hboy43 said:


> Hello Gang:
> 
> Well, after delaying the inevitable about 12 years, I am thinking of replacing my oil furnace with a gas (propane) furnace.
> 
> ...




If your using propane as main source of heating I would suggest checking out localpropaneprices.com to post and compare to find the company with the most fair propane prices. The industry unregulated and most companies charges whatever they like in the winter time and with a website like localpropaneprices.com it can help us propane users find the most fair prices and companies to get propane from or even get the current supplier to match the lowest rates on that website.


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## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

Wow, I feel so naive, I just assumed every house in Canada was on natural gas.

So in other parts, they pump propane instead of natural gas to the houses?


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## Emjay85 (Nov 9, 2014)

CalgaryPotato said:


> Wow, I feel so naive, I just assumed every house in Canada was on natural gas.
> 
> So in other parts, they pump propane instead of natural gas to the houses?


It is common for it to be stored in a tank on the property somewhere and is up to the homeowner to have it filled and maintained in areas that are not serviced by natural gas.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

CalgaryPotato said:


> Wow, I feel so naive, I just assumed every house in Canada was on natural gas.
> 
> So in other parts, they pump propane instead of natural gas to the houses?


For some of us, propane can arrive like this:


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

CalgaryPotato said:


> Wow, I feel so naive, I just assumed every house in Canada was on natural gas.



If there are no sewers, no water lines then likely there is no natural gas line. Even if there are such things in the sub-division, until enough houses request a natural gas line be put in - there may be people that the gas company is say "any time now" to their request (I seem to recall about two years for my friend).




CalgaryPotato said:


> ... So in other parts, they pump propane instead of natural gas to the houses?


I am not aware of places that pump propane through pipes, like natural gas. 
What I have seen is a large tank is put on the property then refilled from a truck, similar to having an oil tank that is refilled as needed.


Cheers


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## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

Eclectic12 said:


> If there are no sewers, no water lines then likely there is no natural gas line. Even if there are such things in the sub-division, until enough houses request a natural gas line be put in - there may be people that the gas company is say "any time now" to their request (I seem to recall about two years for my friend).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, in Calgary I'm pretty sure the natural gas line is always added before the houses are put in. Never thought about having to wait for it and use a different type of heat in the meantime...


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