# Fees - TD Private Banking and Investment Counsel



## whadoiknow (May 23, 2009)

This forum is so helpful I keep asking questions! Thanks to all those interested enough to help. Here's my latest quandary.

I'm a high net worth investor who's fairly passive but I've been paying 2.5% or so in fees to a boutique firm for yeeeeears now. It's time for a change. TD is proposing a 1.35% all in private counsel fee (and with the requisite charts showing great returns over the years) to pools available to their high net worth clients only. They are also proposing a $100/month fee for their private banking services.

So my question is: Has anybody signed up with TD for these services? Are these fees negotiable? And if so to what extent? I guess those are actually questions....


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## leslie (May 25, 2009)

* The people who contribute to this forum, by definition, are those who do their own investing and so won't have any experience using those services.
* Personally I don't think change for change's sake is really a good reason, nor is 1% lower fees.
* Personally I would prefer boutique offices "where everyone knows your name" over the institutional bank services. 
* But none of that is of any real value as advice.


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## msimms (Apr 17, 2009)

whadoiknow said:


> This forum is so helpful I keep asking questions! Thanks to all those interested enough to help. Here's my latest quandary.
> 
> I'm a high net worth investor who's fairly passive but I've been paying 2.5% or so in fees to a boutique firm for yeeeeears now. It's time for a change. TD is proposing a 1.35% all in private counsel fee (and with the requisite charts showing great returns over the years) to pools available to their high net worth clients only. They are also proposing a $100/month fee for their private banking services.
> 
> So my question is: Has anybody signed up with TD for these services? Are these fees negotiable? And if so to what extent? I guess those are actually questions....


No, too expensive. cheaper buy a few books and do your own investment research rather than pay them to do it (which they may just have you buy their own products, where they will charge you even more fees and pocket more of your money, MER, etc).


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

hmmmmn this is picturesque.

folks who are capable of amassing a million dollars or more don't generally get up on message boards like this one to advertise the same, or to flog some managerial service, or to ask anonymous strangers in a helpless fashion whether they think fees can maybe be negotiated.

in your own way you remind me of wealthy wundy, another helpless td wunderkind who likes to get his mama to run errands for him.

so i keep wondering, has the td gotten really, really, really creative about posting disguised advertising messages here.

if so, whaddyano td, please take note that rambunctious kid profiles with no money appeal far more to this board - that is, they generate more kind & helplful messages - than guffer profiles suffering with their millions.

btw how could the td claim great returns over the last year. They'd be lucky to break even.


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## whadoiknow (May 23, 2009)

*wow*

Humble, you sound bitter. I'm sorry if you feel the need to heap such disdain because I've been very fortunate financially. I also didn't know I needed my own toolkit and nails to post on the board. Fortunately, one very helpful member shared some tremendous insight with me on my problem in a private message so it indeed was worth it.

And no mamma doesn't run my errands. I've earned every single penny with my own sweat, on balance have invested it wisely and am quite comfortable with all that it's brought me.

If you want some advice let me know. Sounds like you could use some...correction...a bunch.

Thanks to all others.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

precisely what i was saying. People who are "fortunate financially," who have "earned every penny with [their] own sweat" and who have "invested it wisely" do not wind up with a million dollars, asking anonymous strangers for tips about whether they should try to negotiate management fees.

what drew my attention is your flogging of the td only. People in the circumstances that you claim to be yours do not flog one service. Normally, they are discreetly introduced to top-ranked financial managers by equally wealthy friends, relatives, accountants, lawyers. Normally, they meet with and develop a short list of several competing services to choose from. Normally, they are concerned with major issues such as investment philosophy; objective third-party evidence of portfolio management success over significant periods of time; intended frequency of reportage; biographies and backgrounds of the principal partners; membership such as CFA qualification in recognized societies that emphasize ethical conduct in discretionary fund management; separation of custodian duties from management discretion; psychosocial fit of the potential client with the firm; and consideration of the quality of eventual relationship with the client's heirs in the event client should become incapacitated or worse.

the giving-up of one's important savings to a trusted advisor in one's senior years is a complex and profound step involving the above considerations and more. To reduce all this to a tout of one particular bank's offerings plus an anonymous request for tips about how to haggle fees appears bizarre in the extreme.

as for remarks about seeking advice from you, surely you jest.


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

Why so angry?


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## osc (Oct 17, 2009)

You were paying 2.5% in fees and still got rich, lol? You should keep paying 2.5%.


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

osc said:


> You were paying 2.5% in fees and still got rich, lol? You should keep paying 2.5%.


To a bank I think 'high net worth' client is just a person who has $100,000 in investable assets unless things have changed. No need to avoid the OPs question or make a big deal out of it.


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## whadoiknow (May 23, 2009)

*thanks humble*

for your clarification. Assume that I done all the front end leg work you had described based on my prioritization of items similar, but not identical, to your list and narrowed the field down to TD for a whole bunch of reasons. Maybe if I would have framed my initial post in such a way, you wouldn't have beat my like a rented mule.

Nonetheless, I've gotten some great help from this forum as I always do - thanks private messagers.

It's true I've paid 2.5% for 13 years now. I'm also quite comfortable with where it's netted me relative to every relevant measure I could test it against. It is possible gang. Not likely I grant you with the benefit of hindsight and a rabid press. But possible nonetheless.

I never jest with offers of guidance. I'll be here. Take your time.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

but whatdoyouknow, how could i assume that. Who'd know, from what you said, that you really had done all the leg work, asked all the right questions, added up all the equations, and finally selected the TD in a sober businesslike manner befitting one to the manor bred or born. The impression i got from your original post is that you'd had a previous investment counsel, now you'd suddenly found the td with its "great" charts and cheaper price so whoopee, did anybody have suggestions how to push the td even lower.

but as i keep saying, people who are able to amass substantial accounts tend to be good, smart managers, so the above flippant profile seemed incongruous. So i had wondered if some crafty td marketing person had dreamed up a few puppets to deploy on message boards, simply to draw attention to various kinds of td products. BTW the "mama" reference was not to yourself but to another recent td-o-phile.

i do have reservations, not just about the td but about all the big machine investment counsel firms. One specific reservation is, does that 1.35% fee include custodial fees. Often, it does not. The reason one should insist on a strict separation of discretionary advisor management and custody of the actual securities is that this prevents the famous accidents like madoff, earl jones, norbourg and so on. The few bad apples among the discretionary advisors - and the good old td would not be one of them - cannot pull off their schemes under the full view of an arms' length professional custodian. It's my belief that the best houses routinely use arms' length custodial services even though it's highly unlikely that they will ever be abusing the clients' assets. As a client, i would look for and require this separation. And it does add a considerable extra cost. If previously you were paying a rate of around 2.5%, this would undoubtedly have included custody of securities by an independent professional 3rd party.

i have other reservations about the big machine shops. But enuf for tonight. Wishing you all the best.


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## whadoiknow (May 23, 2009)

*Thanks Humble*

Good points. Appreciate the continued interest. All the best


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

on 2nd thot maybe transfer half to the td & run the 2 accounts side-by-side for a couple of years to see how the cookies crumble. Since you mentioned you'd been with your original IC for 13 years & they seemed to have done alright by you.

even wilder. You could join us unwashed peasants & transfer some funds to an online discount broker to trade on your own.


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