# apartment landlord demanding direct access to bank account for rent payments



## the-royal-mail

I moved into this nice apartment a year ago and the only forms of rent payment they offered at the time were bank debits and credit card payments. This week they started phoning and bothering me to change my method to bank debits because they did not want to pay the CC fees. I do not believe in giving anyone access to my bank account for payments. My rent has always been paid on time through my CC payments and I have not been a problem tenant. Last week they left me a message. Last night when I got home they had left another message and slide a form under my door, filled in with my contact information and a "start date" of Nov 1 to start taking the money out of my bank account. I have ignored them thus far but this is getting ridiculous. Their fees are a cost of doing business and are not my problem. They do not want personal cheques and I sure as heck am not going to start paying fees and running around to get money orders for them every single month.

Do they have the right to harass me and demand access to my account like this? I am considering calling the rental board and a lawyer on Tuesday. Short of moving, is there anything else I can and should do?


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## heyjude

Where do you live? According to the below link, this demand would be illegal in Ontario. 

http://ontariolandlordandtenantlaw.blogspot.ca/2014/07/can-landlord-demand-post-dated-cheques.html


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## kcowan

After 17 years, our landlord started accepting direct debit for the rent. No longer getting writers; cramp once a year. They wisely never accepted credit cards.

(I understand your perceived loss of control/benefit, but I am sure you will adapt quickly.)


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## andrewf

One compromise might be email money transfer. Just deduct the service charge from the rent payment.


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## cainvest

Have they actually said to you that a credit card will not longer be accepted?

You could also setup a new account (only rent money gets put in there) solely for paying them, of course this may cost you something which you could discuss with them.


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## the-royal-mail

Thanks for the responses thus far. 

No, they have not actually said that a CC will no longer be accepted. Their words were something like "They would like to switch you to bank debits to save the CC fees", followed by all the details. I found this very presumptuous of them. 

I do have a PCF account that I setup specifically for paypal payments as I did not want them to have access to my "real" account I use for everyday banking in case I ever got into an argument with them over something and they decided to freeze my account. I can't have all my bills bouncing on the whims of a web company. I could use that but would then would need to pay fees to tx the money from my real account to this one and of course I could miss my rent payment if paypal ever did freeze the account. It hasn't happened to me yet but if you google for it you will find lots of horror stories of that posted on line.

They have not offered me any other payment options. I have a feeling by their actions and words they are not interested in compromising. The email transfer seems to cost me around $1.50. These are good options but they don't seem interested. They probably have a process they want to follow and have me fit into like a pair of tight leather pants. My prior landlord was also hounding me to use the bank debit option but they were not as aggressive as this. Oh and I am not in Ontario. I searched my own province's rental board's website and contrary to the link above they seem to say nothing about method of payment.


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## cainvest

the-royal-mail said:


> No, they have not actually said that a CC will no longer be accepted. Their words were something like "They would like to switch you to bank debits to save the CC fees", followed by all the details. I found this very presumptuous of them.


When then it's not a real problem, only some inconvenience which I agree that it's not nice of them to continuously bother you. I sure hope you're using a "cash back" kind of CC ... might be fun to throw that in their face when they call you next.


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## Spudd

It shouldn't cost you money to transfer funds to PCF from your other account. If you give PCF a void cheque they should be able to set it up to pull the money from your account without any transfer fees. (Of course then you're giving someone else access to your account, haha.)


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## marina628

After 2 years of my daughter being able to use credit card or debit to pay her rent , she had to give them a void cheque so they could take the rent directly from her bank account as of August 1.Rent has to be paid and it don't seem too much to ask IMO and just a FYI to date her rent is coming on most days 2nd-4th day of the month and never early in case that was a concern of yours.


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## the-royal-mail

Is there a way to set up a recurring bill payment from RBC account to my PCF account? I can't see a payee in the RBC online banking list when I search by president or PCF. Not sure how to tx funds from RBC to PCF without paying fees. And my landlord is not in the payee list either.


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## Cdnwife

Tangerine let's you do a recurring pull from an external account. You also can email funds for no fee but it takes a day or two to settle w the recipient. Perhaps a Tangerine acct would work, but it is another acct to manage.


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## carverman

Spudd said:


> It shouldn't cost you money to transfer funds to PCF from your other account. If you give PCF a void cheque they should be able to set it up to pull the money from your account without any transfer fees. (Of course then you're giving someone else access to your account, haha.)


I have PCF and other than City of Ottawa UTILITIES and Enbridge, I don't allow private companies access to my bank account.
In theory, it may be workable, but if someone on the landlords accounting office pulls out more than the regular monthly
rent, you have a problem getting back any "unauthorized" funds because essentially you authorized the automatic withdrawal.

If you change residency, then there is the other problem of trying to stop any future payments requiring you to phone your
bank and do a stop order..which may be a charge.

Setting up a separate account for paying your rent automatically may also result in some problems for you also if more money is withdrawn than what is required, because you have given "carte blanche" to the landlord to access your account.

If your rent is $1200 a month, then that is a significant amount of money...the etransfer (if they don't want to
pay the CC fee at their end) is still the best option, even if it's another $1.50 a month or $18 a year..because YOU have the control on the rent rather than the landlord dipping into your bank account.


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## Mechanic

What if you don't have a bank account ? Then what do they offer as method of payment ?


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## the-royal-mail

Thanks for the additional thoughts. I checked my PCF account and had trouble linking it to my RBC account but that still involves giving them access to my bank account, something I am opposed to.

The govt should be protecting people against companies that demand this form of payment. If they deliver a service, the onus is on me to pay them. If I do not pay, then they would be in their rights to come after me via collections etc. But I always pay my bills.

If I told them I had no bank account they would probably require me to run to the store or bank every month and purchase money orders or buy bank drafts or certified cheques.


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## PuckiTwo

Our monthly health insurance payments are withdrawn by the insurance company directly from our bank account. We get a hard copy invoice but the payments go automatically out of the account. AND.....when they raise the rates (regularly every year) they automatically deduct the higher amount from our account. I never questioned that because I am so used to it from Europe.


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## cainvest

the-royal-mail said:


> I checked my PCF account and had trouble linking it to my RBC account but that still involves giving them access to my bank account, something I am opposed to.


Why not just open another account at RBC just for the payments?


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## the-royal-mail

^ Because additional chequing accounts would cost me money in fees.


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## cainvest

the-royal-mail said:


> ^ Because additional chequing accounts would cost me money in fees.


Sorry, a little confused here as I don't deal with stuff like this ... you said they wanted to do a bank debit, does that requires a chequing account?


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## the-royal-mail

I already have a chequing account and that is what they are demanding access to. I don't write blank cheques or give anyone permission to just go into my account and take whatever money they feel like whenever they want. Because I am not willing to give access to my main account, I was just considering the idea mentioned above of a separate account just for them. RBC chequing accounts cost a minimum of $4 per month in fees. I am not paying an additional $4 a month in fees just so the landlord can have direct access to an account of mine.


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## cainvest

Umm ok, let me rephrase my question ... couldn't you just open a savings account (probably free ones available) and let them withdraw from that?


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## ChrisR

I don't really understand why you'd bend over backwards for them at all, especially since you already have a working payment system in place, paying your rent monthly on your credit card.

I would tell them that I'm happy to pay by cheque. If they said no, then I would tell them I'm happy to keep paying the bill on my credit card. If they said that they want to stop taking credit card payments to save on fees? I'd say, sure, I'm happy to pay by cheque... rinse, and repeat.

Oh, and I'm totally with you. Giving someone access to your bank account is just about the worst idea I've ever heard of. I can't understand why anyone would do this, or do business with a company that demanded it.


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## lonewolf

If I was the landlord I would not want credit card fees. Why not just pay using a standing order which is a fixed amount set up to pay exactly the amount you chose. If your getting charged high fees & are dealing with a bank that's not the landlords problem that your problem using a bank instead of a credit union.

Credit cards are making money hand over fist with their fees because everyone lets them. I like the idea of landlord not accepting credit cards so it lowers the costs of running a business which is in every ones best interest accept the credit card companies.


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## Sprucegum

Ask the landlord for his bank information so you can direct deposit at your discretion.


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## the-royal-mail

^ Very amusing suggestion which I will certainly offer when offering the cheque idea as suggested by ChrisR, but remember I would have to pay a fee everytime I tx money as you (Sprucegum) describe.


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## gardner

Sprucegum said:


> Ask the landlord for his bank information so you can direct deposit at your discretion.


This, definitely.

Definitely do not give withdrawal permission to the landlord.


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## kcowan

PuckiTwo said:


> Our monthly health insurance payments are withdrawn by the insurance company directly from our bank account. ..


Yea we pay medicare directly as well as our telephone bill. We just started paying the rent in October. We will see how it goes.

As for the mailman, what alternatives will the landlord provide? Which ones does your bank recommend?


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## lb71

Excuse my ignorance, by why the hesitation to give our banking information with respect to pre authorized withdrawals? Especially since the OP is already doing this through his credit card? What additional risk is there via a bank account?


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## the-royal-mail

^ The CC was simply the lesser of the two evils, ie. the only two payment options they offered when I moved in were bank or CC debits. With the latter option I at least have some control over things in case they screw up somehow. I can review and "approve" the charge before paying my CC bill at the end of the month. This is quite different than giving someone access to my bank account. As soon as they take whatever money they want, it's gone immediately. Nearly impossible to get back. This is especially problematic when I eventually move out, as LLs love enslaving their tenants to scrub and repair the unit before leaving, and if not satisfied they charge for every little scratch and piece of damage. With my bank account they can simply take that (if not covered by security deposit). With CC I would at least have that added layer of security that benefits ME and allows me to refuse the charge if I disagree with it.

ChrisR gets it.


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## lb71

I'm not sure you have as much control over your CC as you think. Since you have a pre approved debit agreement with the vendor, the CC company won't decline the charge. They will tell you to take it up with the vendor.


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## realist

If it comes to it, draft up a debit agreement that says that any errors on their part will result in a $1000 administration fee paid to you 

Also, I'd assume you will also get a rent reduction by however much they are saving on fees?


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## Goose

the-royal-mail said:


> This is quite different than giving someone access to my bank account. As soon as they take whatever money they want, it's gone immediately. Nearly impossible to get back. This is especially problematic when I eventually move out, as LLs love enslaving their tenants to scrub and repair the unit before leaving, and if not satisfied they charge for every little scratch and piece of damage. With my bank account they can simply take that (if not covered by security deposit). With CC I would at least have that added layer of security that benefits ME and allows me to refuse the charge if I disagree with it.
> 
> ChrisR gets it.


While I understand your hesitation with giving our your bank account information, it is untrue that it is impossible for your to get your funds back. Organizations auto-debiting your account are required to follow the Canadian Payments Association rules. (More importantly though, your bank has to follow them) For some dry reading you can look here:

http://www.cdnpay.ca/imis15/pdf/pdfs_rules/rule_h1.pdf

Anyways, a couple of key points, your FI has 90 days to pull back payments that are:


Not withdrawn in accordance with your (written) agreement
Where your agreement has been revoked


I most certainly wouldn't sign up for any pre-authorized debit that didn't clearly spell out the terms and conditions and the amount that would be debited. Generally large organizations have this covered.


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## OhGreatGuru

I'm with TRM. 

Option 1: Tell the landlord to become a registered payee with RBC and you will be happy to pay him electronically. You can set up automatic monthly payments under your control on your bank web site. Oh- and you would like him to send you monthly e-statements as a reminder, and as confirmation of payments received, like every other service provider that gets paid electronically. 

FROM RBC: _Need to Pay a Bill?
It's easy! To see if a company is a registered payee with RBC Royal Bank, simply key in part of the company name below and click on the "Search" button._

Option 2. Tell the landlord to open an RBC bank account, and give you the account number, and you will be happy to pay him electronically from your account. (You can make payments to any RBC bank account if you have the account no.)

3. Theoretically you should be able to do the same to an account at any Canadian bank - the routing information is all in the bank account number. But the chartered banks don't want to make it easy for you to deal with their competitors. So you have to fall back on etransfers; or an on-line bank that lets you make payments to any other bank.


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## lb71

Here is a more compact version of the CPA rules for consumers:
http://www.cdnpay.ca/imis15/pdf/pdfs_publications/consumer_guide_pads.pdf


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## carverman

lb71 said:


> I'm not sure you have as much control over your CC as you think. Since you have a pre approved debit agreement with the vendor, the CC company won't decline the charge. They will tell you to take it up with the vendor.


Most CC have an dispute process (lengthy as it is 30 to 60 days sometimes(, where you can dispute the charges if you and the merchant, (or landlord in this case) disagree on the charges, even if the charge(s) are already posted. 

I've had to do this with PCF myself, it takes longer, but you could get a charge reversal PROVIDED you have a good case such as fraud or goods not received. 

However, I'm not sure if this applies with the LL taking out additional money from your bank account above the customary damage deposit.
IFthey send you a bill for "cleaning" and making the rental unit ready to rent....it depends on how much the damage deposit is VS the cost of repairing the damage as determined by the landlord. 
In some cases, it could even be "padded"..how would you know?


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## peterk

Our landlord accepts cheque or pre authorized debit. We go with cheque because I don't trust that the debit will be taken properly, or stop if I vacate, or if SHTF with the landlords and I have to withhold payment or move out suddenly.


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## lb71

I agree there is a dispute process with the CC companies. However, you cannot just call and say "I don't approve this charge". In the OP's situtation, the CC company will see a history of monthly payments going to the landlord. The CC company will tell him to take it up with the LL first. 

I have been through these dispute mechanisms before myself. They ask a lot of questions before suspending the charge and conducting an investigation. I have a friend who wanted out of his gym membership. They were taking monthly fees from his credit card. They CC company would not stop the payments. Told him to work it out with the gym.


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## the-royal-mail

They left me another message in my voicemail this afternoon, demanding access to my bank account for November 1.


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## OhGreatGuru

If you are feeling at all empathetic, tell him you agree the charges by credit card companies are outrageous, and hope that he will vote for a government that will limit such charges, as Australia does, to 1%. 

In the meantime, ask him how much your credit card company is charging him, as they do not share this information with their credit card holders. And can he give you a list of credit cards that have more reasonable fees?

If they are getting to the point of making voicemail "demands" it's probably time you checked both the terms of your lease and the provincial laws on this subject.


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## the-royal-mail

Thanks for the reply. 

I have contacted the rental board and our laws say nothing about method of payment, except that LL may charge NSF fees for rubber cheques and possibly require cash payment. They said if I wished to pursue the matter with them, they would try to mediate but that it could take up to 4 months to get a hearing scheduled.

I checked my lease and it is consistent with the aformentioned laws and says nothing about method of payment, just that tenant is responsible to deliver the rent on time. The rental board warned me that if I do not pay my rent I could be evicted.

I suppose my next call will be to my lawyer, to request a cease and decist letter. Not sure what else I can do. I will of course offer to pay by cheque or continue paying by credit card as suggested above.


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## ChrisR

You keep telling us that they have called and left messages... but have you called them back? Tell them that access to your bank account is not going to happen. There are lots of ways to pay bills these days, at least one of which should be acceptable to both you and your landlord. Have they explained why they won't take your personal cheque? Isn't this the way almost every renter on Earth pays their rent? (I'm assuming you've never bounced a cheque to them, which would be the only explanation I could understand for not accepting rent by cheque.)


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## the-royal-mail

I attempted to call them back after I got home from work today but there was no answer. They always seem to call during the day when I am not at home. I have not been anxious to speak to them because in their voice messages they are not asking, they are basically reading me the riot act and demanding that I sign the form (with my bank account information) they slid under my door over the Thanksgiving long weekend. This approach suggests they want to talk and dictate, not listen and work out a plan that works for both sides.

I agree that personal cheques are the way to go. This LL is a national corporation and seem to now only offer ONE method of payment. Since the local law says nothing about method of payment, there is no mention of this in my rental agreement. They are trying to switch me off my CC because they no longer wish to pay the fees. They simply say they do not take personal cheques. Pre-authorized bank account access only. I have not bounced a single cheque or missed a rent payment in my entire life.

So I guess I'll be calling my lawyer tomorrow. Not sure what else I can do.


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## ChrisR

I would try to get a break from work tomorrow and call them. 

I believe it is your responsibility to pay them by the first of the month. But, unless your local tenancy laws or lease specify a particular type of payment, I don't see how they can go changing the rules around on a month-by-month basis. Which is what they seem to be doing.

It sounds like the only thing the tenancy guideline mention is that you may have to pay cash? If this is the case, offer to pay cash (and tell them that is what the tenancy guidelines say). I think that most landlords are going to be so turned off by the thought of cash that they'll be ready to hear alternative options. 

Please note: I wouldn't start with the cash suggestion. I would start with the cheque suggestion. Seriously, what national rental company isn't set up to accept cheques?


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## carverman

If the landlord has to apply for a credit card processing as a merchant, the fees are significant and fee structure is very complicated. Even if he doesn't want to register with the CC companies as a MERCHANT because of low volume, he still needs a THIRD PARTY payment processor to handle the credit card transactions for his business and this will cost him. 



> Credit Card Transaction Processing Fees Explained
> The basic fee structure for processing is fairly clear. Each transaction will cost you a percent of the amount that’s processed, plus a flat amount per transaction called the authorization fee. For example, the transaction fee on a *sale of $100.00 at a rate of 1.79% + $0.25 per transaction would roughly be $2.04: ($100.00 x 1.79%) + $0.25 = about $2.04.* However, not every transaction costs the same.


So if one were to extrapolate the transaction fee for a $1200 amount applying the same fee calculation..it would be $1200x1.79%= $21.48 + .25c = $21.73?
but it can't be that much, as the merchant would probably get a discount on the amount after $1000. 



> *The rates for processing card transactions are determined based on interchange rates, which are set by card associations (i.e., Visa, MasterCard, and American Express). Over 300 different interchange rates can be applied to a transaction,* depending upon factors such as the type of card, the type of merchant, and how the transaction is sent by the merchant. The rates are modified twice a year, usually in April and October. This variability has prompted merchants to ask for government legislation to address the standardization of interchange rates.
> 
> Because the cost for each transaction is different, credit card processors offer merchants a variety of pricing methods.


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## the-royal-mail

Seller fees are their cost of doing business and are not my problem. My last LL was similar. They found it more convenient for them to get everyone on auto debits as they contended they had to "chase" people for cheques. I call BS to that and I cannot be held responsible for the acts of others. I will try calling them and offer cheques or to continue paying via CC. I will also be speaking to my lawyer later today and will advise them of such. My personal bank account is my own. Nobody has the right to demand access to it.


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## carverman

the-royal-mail said:


> Seller fees are their cost of doing business and are not my problem. My last LL was similar. They found it more convenient for them to get everyone on auto debits as they contended they had to "chase" people for cheques. I call BS to that and I cannot be held responsible for the acts of others. I will try calling them and offer cheques or to continue paying via CC. I will also be speaking to my lawyer later today and will advise them of such. My personal bank account is my own. Nobody has the right to demand access to it.



You made your point, TRM; ...and the LL made their point. If they don't want to accept cheques as payment for rent (due to steep NSF charges, which are very significant these days) and they don't want to pay CC fees that are probably high as well....what other form of payment is left?

Cash..which is very inconvenient and etransfer, which costs you a transaction fee. 
Bit of a dilemma here. Is a lawyer going to be able to provide an idea towards a solution? If you get the lawyer involved ( besides the initial telephone call to him/her), writing a legal letter to the landlord may cost you as well. 

A verbal call to the LL isn't going to do anything...a lawyers letter would have to be written. At $300 an hour..a half hour of legal billed to you could be as much as $150 + hst = $170. 

*This is from the LandLords perspective:* 


> Credit Cards- Do not allow your tenants to pay rent using a credit card. First, you will usually have to pay some sort of a transaction fee. Secondly, the tenant always has the opportunity to report this charge to their credit card company as fraudulent, leaving you with no payment until the situation is rectified, hopefully in your favor.


Or the CC card is suspended, compromised or cancelled.
*



Direct Deposit Into Your Banking Account- Do not allow tenants to directly deposit their monthly rent into your banking account because this involves you having to give them your account number and your routing number. If they are able to put money into the account using this information, they are also able to take money out of the account using this information. While most people are honest and would not commit this type of crime, it is not worth the risk. Especially since there are other, more secure, methods of collecting rent.

Click to expand...

*
Hmm..so you as a tenant could take money out of the DD landlords bank account too....very interesting!

Some more information here...
http://landlords.about.com/od/Landlord101/a/What-Forms-Of-Payment-To-Accept-As-Rent.htm


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## PoolAndRapid

..


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## marina628

Bottom line is you have to pay the rent and if you don't they evict you.I know CAPREIT stopped taking cheques and credit cards last year , my daughter use to be able to pay with credit or debit by going to the office and when her lease was up had to provide a cancelled cheque.If you have no issue to give them a physical cheque then you are not giving them any additional info with a pre authorised form.They already know your name where you live and the bank acct info when you previously paid with cheque.


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## OhGreatGuru

_Direct Deposit Into Your Banking Account- Do not allow tenants to directly deposit their monthly rent into your banking account because this involves you having to give them your account number and your routing number. If they are able to put money into the account using this information, they are also able to take money out of the account using this information. While most people are honest and would not commit this type of crime, it is not worth the risk. Especially since there are other, more secure, methods of collecting rent._

Now for the tenants' viewpoint:

Direct Debit from your Banking Account - Do not allow landlords to directly deduct their monthly rent from your banking account because this involves you having to give them your account number and your routing number. If they are able to withdraw rent from the account using this information, they are also able to take other amounts improperly out of the account using this information. While most landlords are honest and would not commit this type of crime, it is not worth the risk. Especially since there are other, more secure, methods of paying rent.

Can you see the difference?


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## OhGreatGuru

To TRM: I don't like the way this is playing out. Another fallback position is to tell landlord you want a rent reduction of $4/mo for a new RBC chequing account; and set up automatic monthly transfers from your current RBC account to the new one. But it bothers me that a LL that is a "national corporation" isn't offering payment options like any other national corporation would.


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## lonewolf

I do not understand why paying is such a big problem. Most workers have their pay directly deposited into their bank account by employers. Why cant a tenant directly deposit their rent into the landlords account? With modern technology I just do not see why there is such a big problem ?

As far as fees I never herd of anyone that has a credit card ask merchants or who ever is accepting the credit card to pay the fees the credit card companies charges. When payroll deposits money into workers accounts they do not take off banking fees.


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## the-royal-mail

Thank you to everyone who contributed and esp OGG and Chris. I have considered carefully your thoughts and have the following updates:

1. I spoke to my lawyer today who explained that there is nothing in law which permits a vendor to demand and be granted access to a bank account. My responsibility as a tenant is to have the rent be paid on time. He said that if I wanted to take it further (ie. have him write a cease and decist letter) that it would cost a few hundred dollars for them to research and prepare and send the letter.

2. After this I called the LL back and spoke to a new person in the office who explained they would no longer be taking rent payments via CC's as of Nov 1. They said I had to fill in the form with my banking information and provide it to them. I plainly said (as suggested upthread) that direct access to my bank account would *no**t* be happening. I gave much of the same background I already gave in this thread. I was very firm but polite. I offered to instead pay via personal cheque. It sounded like there was some hesitation on that but the person I spoke to did reluctantly agree. I offered to bring November and several future months of rent cheques right now, while the conversation was fresh in our minds. They said they had no place to store them in the office and said I should bring it in closer to the end of the month. OK so it sounds like we are (reluctantly) agreed. 

But to be honest, I have a feeling this is not over and that they may tire of this or change their minds as they did with the CC's. If that happens, then I will fallback on mediation or a hearing with the rental board, which could take several months (and they probably know that).

It's pretty sad that it has to come to this for individuals to protect their bank accounts. It is truly offensive to me. A bank account is one of the most personal things any of us has and that must be vigorously protected.


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## carverman

the-royal-mail said:


> My responsibility as a tenant is to have the rent be paid on time. *He said that if I wanted to take it further (ie. have him write a cease and decist letter) that it would cost a few hundred dollars for them to research and prepare and send the letter*.


Besides being costly to you, the cease and desist letter might aggravate the situation even more.



> But to be honest, I have a feeling this is not over and that they may tire of this or change their minds as they did with the CC's. If that happens, *then I will fallback on mediation or a hearing with the rental board*, which could take several months (and they probably know that).


So if that happens, hopefully not, how are you planning to pay your rent on time? Go to your ATM and take out the cash in 20s? If you are with PCF, like I am, it is a virtual bank..so you can' just go into any branch, write a withdrawal slip and take it out in $100 bills. 

Also, after paying cash, you would need a receipt from the LL's official representative ON THE SPOT, to record that you paid the rent in cash for the month..that would be a lot of hassle. and I can see some possible issues there as well.


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## the-royal-mail

Thanks for your comments. Why do you say a legal letter would aggravate the situation? Wouldn't that calm it down by getting them to back off?

As for PCF, you are correct except that they do have ATMs at Loblaws and you can also use the CIBC ones. But would I withdraw and carry around a luggage of $20s with me? No. But I know what you are saying about the hassle and receipt factor.

To triumph, evil need only see good men doing nothing to stop it.


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## HaroldCrump

the-royal-mail said:


> Thanks for your comments. Why do you say a legal letter would aggravate the situation? Wouldn't that calm it down by getting them to back off?


Not at all...I agree with carverman that it will aggravate the situation.
You will alienate and p*s off the L/L, and they will quite likely dig their heels in and refuse to be flexible.

Keep in mind that no business/merchant is obligated _by law _to accept a credit card.
There are hundreds of thousands of businesses, retailers, merchants that do not accept credit cards, such as small grocery stores, convenience stores, handymen, etc.
Unless there is a specific provincial law in your province obligating a merchant to accept credit cards, you cannot force them to do so by sending a lawyer's letter.

Also, if they are a large, national landlord, they know that such letters written by every two-pence lawyer is not worth the paper it is written on.
Unless you are willing to back it up by filing a lawsuit, lawyer's letter means nothing.
They have more money and more lawyers on their staff than you do.

They can also refuse to renew your lease when it expires.


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## andrewf

Doesn't that depend on the jurisdiction? In Ontario at the end of the lease, you can elect to go month to month tenancy. Not sure why you would every sign a lease after the first year...


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## the-royal-mail

OK thanks carver and HC for your input. I will not go that route, then.

I am not saying they have to accept a CC, but why does the only option have to be giving them access to my account? We'll try the cheque thing and see how it goes.

We are on month to month tenancy here. Lease is open ended and says nothing about method of payment.


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## Berubeland

TRM, I'm not sure you know this but your apartment building runs at about a 5% cap rate. This means that their margin for profit after all expenses is 5% if they are lucky. So of your $1200 in monthly rent $60 is "profit" and your credit card cost 2.5 % or more in servicing fees. so now they make $30 in profit and all because you want to earn airmiles or some other benefit from the credit card. 

Checks really are atrocious as a method of payment, specifically rents do tend to be the same amounts. If you have 30 apartment maybe 20 will have the exact same payment. Then one check bounces. Which one is it? You won't know until they mail it to you a couple weeks later. Plus there is a physicality to checks that are a real problem. You must pick them up, record them, copy them, deposit them etc. All which leads to costs as noted above. 

That's why they want Electronic payments.


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## carverman

the-royal-mail said:


> OK thanks carver and HC for your input. I will not go that route, then.
> 
> I am not saying they have to accept a CC, but why does the only option have to be giving them access to my account? We'll try the cheque thing and see how it goes.
> 
> We are on month to month tenancy here. Lease is open ended and says nothing about method of payment.


If you are with PCF, you can arrange to have electronic payments to the LL through what they call etransfer. yes there is a
$1.50 charge for each tranfer, but at least you will not have all that aggravation, you are going through now, if they are not willing to take the rent as CC payments. 
YOU might want to call PCF and see what is involved. It would amount to about $18 a year, *far less than a legal letter or the aggravation of trying to settle with the LL-TENANTS board. *

Look at this way, is it worth all that hassle with the LL , for a small fee equivalent to a cup of Tim HORTON's coffee per month, even if you lose $12 worth of LOBLAWS grocery points by not being able to use your PCF MC?

This year, after two PCFMC compromises, suspending the CC number transactions, I decided to try an other CC bank.


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## the-royal-mail

Berube, as I said above I have never written a bad cheque in my life.

Besides which, why don't LL's set themselves up as payees in online banking or better yet give me their banking information incl transit numbers and I'll pay them that way?

The points you make do not give LL's the right to demand access to the personal accounts of individuals. That practice ought to be outlawed for ANY business.

My concept is, if I owe you money then I will pay you. You have no right to take the money.

carver, you make a good point. However, I have yet to encounter a LL who is willing to share their banking information to do as you recommend. Ironic.


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## carverman

the-royal-mail said:


> carver, you make a good point. However, I have yet to encounter a LL who is willing to share their banking information to do as you recommend. Ironic.



According to PCF..here's how Interact e-transfer is supposed to work:
Sender:


> To begin the INTERAC® e-Transfer, the sender signs on to online banking and selects the ‘e-Transfers’ link.
> *The sender enters the recipient’s name and e-mail address, the payment amount*, and an optional personal message. The recipient’s name and e-mail address will be saved in a recipient list for future transfers.


Recipient:


> The recipient is notified by e-mail that an INTERAC® e-Transfer has been sent. This *e-mail contains the name of the sender, the payment amount, originating bank *and a personal message (if included).
> *It also contains a link to the Web site where the recipient can begin the deposit process.*


So it appears that bank account detail information is not disclosed at either end. 

The landlord would not be privy to your bank account, nor would you be privy to the LL bank account.


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## OnlyMyOpinion

Not sure if OP's landlord is 'technically savvy' enough to accept them, but Interac e-transfer does work well. If you are set up with on-line banking, all you need is the email address of the recipient. All they need is to have on-line banking and the password to 'unlock' funds at their end. Money comes out of your account immediately when you send the email. It would be credited back to your account if the other end cancelled or did not cash it after a period of time. It will cost $1.50 per transaction however - probably its biggest downfall if you hate fees as much as we do. 
You provide them the password separately, it need not change from month to month. They know nothing of your banking info (unlike a cheque or auto-withdrawls) and visa versa. Your bank acc shows amount and date that you paid them.

With TD Canada Trust - log-on, go to 'payments & transfers', go to 'transfer funds - within Canada', Choose Interac e-Transfer and click 'make a transfer', choose the person/email you are sending to (or 'update' to add them if they are a new person/email), choose which TD acc, the amount, the recipeint and click 'send'.

Oh, and make sure you own some bank stocks so the dividends help mute the pain of paying the fee


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## the-royal-mail

^ Thanks. You make a good point about technical knowledge. Know that I am only dealing with local site reps and that all the payments and policies are coming from the head office several provinces away. There is no way for me to enter into a technical discussion with my site reps as they are taking their direction from head office. I am envisioning some sort of a payment admin office at the mother ship, directed by policies coming from their management. Very corporate and no communication. They just pass their new "policies" down the line via memos and forms. I do hate fees and it's easy for those of us who are computer and financially savvy to suggest various things (and I appreciate that folks here have done that in this thread) but it is hard when you're dealing with one way communication from robotic front-line staff. Anyway, we'll do the cheques for now and see how that goes and leave it at that.


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## carverman

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Oh, and make sure you own some bank stocks so the dividends help mute the pain of paying the fee


Well the fee is only $1.50. If he has PCF, the checking acct is free of any fees including new blank checks.

However, the LL will be the winner here, since the LL (or his CC payments processor-third party if that is what he is using), will not have to pay any transaction fees for any CC rent payments and any other fees charged;

but at the same time, by paying by check..the OP will not get the PERK of 10PC points for every dollar spent on the PCFMC CC, (if that is the CC he is using) which translates to 12,000 points for the rent/10 = $12 of FREE groceries at Loblaws..
which could add up to around $144 of free groceries per year.


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## kcowan

I use Interac email transfers extensively and it requires knowledge and work at the receiving end. I would expect most LLs would resist accepting payments in this way.

(BTW paying the rent does not jeopardize any claims you may have against the LL. Specifically, legal advice is to pay first.)


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## andrewf

Berubeland said:


> TRM, I'm not sure you know this but your apartment building runs at about a 5% cap rate. This means that their margin for profit after all expenses is 5% if they are lucky. So of your $1200 in monthly rent $60 is "profit" and your credit card cost 2.5 % or more in servicing fees. so now they make $30 in profit and all because you want to earn airmiles or some other benefit from the credit card.
> 
> Checks really are atrocious as a method of payment, specifically rents do tend to be the same amounts. If you have 30 apartment maybe 20 will have the exact same payment. Then one check bounces. Which one is it? You won't know until they mail it to you a couple weeks later. Plus there is a physicality to checks that are a real problem. You must pick them up, record them, copy them, deposit them etc. All which leads to costs as noted above.
> 
> That's why they want Electronic payments.


Cap rate or NOI?

Cap rate is just the gross rental yield of the property, no?


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## Eclectic12

the-royal-mail said:


> lb71 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Excuse my ignorance, by why the hesitation to give our banking information with respect to pre authorized withdrawals? Especially since the OP is already doing this through his credit card? What additional risk is there via a bank account?
> 
> 
> 
> The CC was simply the lesser of the two evils, ie. the only two payment options they offered when I moved in were bank or CC debits.
> 
> With the latter option I at least have some control over things in case they screw up somehow. I can review and "approve" the charge before paying my CC bill at the end of the month...
Click to expand...

Hmmm ... my dad reviewed his charges in advance of paying and identified a bogus internet service charge from California and spoke to the CC company. They said it was registered as pre-authorized so he had to phone the California company. The California company said "opps, we'll refund it". On his next statement, the refund showed up and dated a week after, a new charge from the same company.

He phone the CC company to place a block, they said "sure ... but since it's registered as pre-authorised, if a new charge that differs by one cent shows up, we have to run it through".

After a few months, he decided it was easier to cancel the CC than it was to get a bogus monthly charge for a different country stopped.


YMMV ....


Cheers


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## Sasquatch

to the OP..... aren't you overthinking this a bit?

I've been paying most of our recurring bills (Insurance, internet, phone, TV, heating fuel etc) by automatic withdrawal from our chequing account with PCF for the last 20 years and have not had any screw ups whatsoever.... none...zero... zilch 

It is of course a smart idea to keep on top of things, which means checking the bank account frequently and making note of any errors.
Like I said, that has not happened here ever.

Maybe you could just relax a little and smell the roses and I don't mean that in a disrespectful way


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