# Gambit with Questrade



## Kalergie (Jan 7, 2011)

Hey guys,
I was going to do Norbert's Gambit with Questrade as described at Moneysense . I thought I should call Questrade first to make sure everything will run smoothly before embarking on this. The guy at the trade desk told me they would not allow this as "you would avoid currency conversion cost". Is Questrade allowed to do that? I thought a few people here have done NG with Questrade. 
Any suggestions? FYI: The usual spread for USD/CAD conversion at Questrade is 150pips for <10,000$ and 95pips >10,000.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

*retract unhelpful reply.*


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## Kalergie (Jan 7, 2011)

What's wrong with clarfiying things first before I dump thousands of $ into something? Dont think that makes someone an ***. Not sure why you're so offended by this.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

slacker said:


> If it's all the same to fellow users of this method, can you like not rub it in their faces that we're doing this?
> 
> I can help, the community can help, CMF can help. But try not to be an *** and tell them how clever you are by avoid their currency conversion method.
> 
> I used the DLR.TO method with Questrade RRSP method no issue. I had to email them to journal DLR.TO to DLR.U.TO. It took a couple of tries, but they did it eventually.


Slacker, what are you talking about? I think you misread the original post.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

My apologies for my curt and unhelpful response.

Here's a more proper and helpful response.

1. Brokerages make a high margin profit on foreign currency conversion.
2. Norbert's Gambit is a way to circumvent their profitable business
3. Ergo, it is reasonable that they will not actively help you in doing the Norbert's Gambit (in this case, they have given you incorrect information)
4. Ergo, asking the brokerage how best to circumvent their profitable business is not the best way of getting answers.
5. I have just performed a Norbert's Gambit (DLR variant) on Questrade RRSP account.

I confirm that it works.

I would like to offer to answer any question you have.

Thanks,
Slacker


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## Kalergie (Jan 7, 2011)

Slacker, thanks for that. I understand that Questrade is not really impressed with people doing the NG. However, I dont think they should give you false information as it appears dodgy. I do have a question actually. Did you have to pay for an agent assisted transaction for the journaling? 
Thanks for your help.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

The people on the phone (yes even the licensed traders) don't always have the right answers. I will tend to guess that they just don't know the proper rules. I suspect whether they charge you any fee is largely discretionary. I suspect that if you tell them "Hi I'm doing the Norbert's Gambit so that you don't get to make any money off of me. nanalalala.", they will almost definitely charge you a fee.

No. I emailed them with something like this:

"Hi, 

Please journal the 1000 shares of DLR.TO I have in my RRSP CAD account to my RRSP USD account as DLR.U.TO.

Thanks,
Slacker"

I did not indicate to them that I'm doing this to short change them on their currency conversion business. I suspect that if everyone start doing this, they may start charging a special journaling fee some time in the future. Hence my caution to not rub it in their faces.

They replied within minutes with something like this:

"Your DLR.TO shares have been journaled to your USD RRSP account as DLR.U.TO for the duration of today only. The effect will only last for today."

That means if you don't sell your DLR.U.TO within today, you will have to ask them to journal again. You should see DLR.U.TO show up in your USD account. If not, that means they didn't do it correctly (they messed up one time, and I had to ask them to do it again)


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## Kalergie (Jan 7, 2011)

Many thanks for this. I appreciate it.

PS: the do-not-do email impression you just gave made me laugh...and may be worth the fee once just to hear his reaction.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

slacker said:


> No. I emailed them with something like this:


This is good info Slacker - I've been thinking about trying this process at Questrade, and didn't think about emailing them.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

the brokers handling serious gambitting - tdw, bmo, roybank - do understand clearly what is going on, so there is no need to worry about concealing anything from them.

they have trained most of their staff to be able to handle any queries or requests that arise.

the fact is that the number of online clients who will carry out true gambits - simultaneous stock arbitrage in 2 markets - is quite limited. The brokers know that. They know that the problem of a few manual journals on their end is not going to become overwhelming.

even with the slower-moving DLR/DLR.U crowd, the gambit brokers are not overwhelmed. So there is no reason for them not to offer good client service, which includes the odd gambit here & there.

arbitrage is not illegal & clients should not fear contacting their broker. If a broker does not charge for an ordinary journal between accounts - most don't - they should not charge to journal a gambit trade.

one problem could arise at questrade that is not their fault. The personnel is probably not trained yet to handle gambitting, therefore don't quite know what to do. The procedure is complex. Some licensed representatives will be willing to ask their managers for enlightenment, while others will brush a client off by saying No, we don't do that. It's just human nature. 

the other 3 above-mentioned brokers went through this learning process as popular gambitting spread during the past 2 years. In the end, these 3 brokers opted to offer proper gambit service to clients. It will be interesting to see how questrade behaves.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> This is good info Slacker - I've been thinking about trying this process at Questrade, and didn't think about emailing them.


Yes, I figure that I will tell them the bare minimum, not necessarily to conceal anything, but so that they will be less confused, and therefore, less can go wrong. Call them on the phone, they'll be required to handle your query in real time (perhaps poorly). Emailing them, they can take their time, and ask their supervisor, "WTH is a journal?".


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## Lephturn (Aug 31, 2009)

Great points slacker - and thanks for the very specific example. I have not done this at Questrade yet - but I will.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

the email instruction sounds good in theory.

however the big bank brokers don't accept any account instructions of any type by email.
no trades, withdrawals, journals, transfers, exercise or other instruction via email.
explicitly, they caution clients against sending their account numbers via email.

some brokers have secure internal email links between themselves & their clients through a client's account. But clients communicating through such a platform, at bmo for example, can only perform minor cosmetic changes upon their accounts. They cannot request a share journal.

it does seem strange that questrade would be so lax in this regard.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> the email instruction sounds good in theory.
> 
> however the big bank brokers don't accept any account instructions of any type by email.
> no trades, withdrawals, journals, transfers, exercise or other instruction via email.
> ...


Is there a big risk that someone will hack into my email and journal some shares on me? Journal theft?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

good luck with your maiden gambit


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

To clarify, when I say "email", I meant click on the mail icon once you have locked into the questrade webpage with your credential. At which point, you can send them a secured message over https.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

at least a broker's internal secured email within an account is safer than external email. Not all brokers have this feature.

bmo investorline does have this service. However they say that the personnel answering the emails are not licensed reps therefore will not accept internal emails w account instructions. No journals, withdrawals, transfers, exercises or trades.

tdw deliberately does not have this email feature. They want 100% communication via secure website or secure mobile or phone. That's all they will accept.

as i mentioned before, arbitrage - which is what gambitting is - is not illegal. It's been practiced for hundreds of years. All clients at every online broker should be able to discuss the procedure w their brokers without fear or anxiety.

any difficulties in discussing with a licensed rep are due more to educational confusion than any blanket refusal by a broker to cooperate. Legally, the broker cannot refuse to cooperate.

however from the broker's end a gambit procedure is far more complicated than 2 unrelated online transactions. Not all online brokers are up to speed with their frontline licensed reps. Some reps will take the trouble to check with their managers, while some reps at some brokerage online houses will refuse pointblank.

i've mentioned that tdw, bmo & roybank have already gone through the stage of learning how to deal with gambit orders, so their representatives tend to be more helpful.


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## Kalergie (Jan 7, 2011)

Humble_pie: Many thanks for sharing your knowledge. This is very helpful.


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## Kalergie (Jan 7, 2011)

So I bought DLR.TO and requested the journal via email. I received an answer within 2 hours that it will be done within a week (most likely faster). Im quite happy about this but is a week normal?


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

Ask them for details. Is it permanent? or will it revert back to DLR.TO. Perhaps can only be done when your DLR.TO has been settled first?


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## Kalergie (Jan 7, 2011)

Did it take a week when you did it? I will ask for clarification on the duration of the journal.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

No. Well, here's the details

- I purchase DLR.TO

- Waited 1 business day
- see DLR.TO is in my account
- email them to journal
- they confirm successful journal with the hour
- I do not see DLR.U.TO
- I attempted to sell DLR.U.TO anyway, but the system would allow it

- Waited another 2 days
- email them to journal again
- they again confirm successful journal quickly
- now I see DLR.U.TO in my RRSP USD immediately after their email reply
- now I sold the DLR.U.TO successfully into USD cash

So my thinking is that the first attempt to journal was too soon, and the initial DLR.TO purchase hasn't settled yet. So next time I'd wait for settlement is complete before email them to journal.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

kalergie everything is going to be ok. What has happened in your case is that the questrade representative intercepting your email took the slow train. This means 3 days to settle your purchase plus a maximum 2 days to journal, although this time segment could be less.

in slacker's case i interpret that the party accepting his email took the rapido & journalled faster. It is possible for a licensed rep to journal instantly. Everything depends upon how the questrade trading platform is built & what kind of mainframe system is supporting the entire operation. How knowledgeable or how experienced an individual licensed representative may be is also part of the scenario.

depending upon the mainframe in place, instant journals can be complicated even for experienced reps. Therefore a brokerage that suddenly begins receiving numerous requests to journal instantly can work itself up into a towering snit about the issue. This is what happened at td waterhouse a year or 2 ago.

other brokers on ISM systems have snits so enormous they won't handle gambits at all.

eventually at tdw, one client persuaded them to optimize & stabilize their policy. After that, the big green snit disappeared. Peace & goodwill blossomed. However, for brokers on ISM whose main trading platforms make gambitting difficult, there can be a long-drawn-out turbulent period as soon as significant numbers of clients first begin to ask for gambits.

until now, cmf forum members have not reported trying any gambits at questrade, so almost nothing is known about how their underlying platform is built. Tentatively, from slacker's story & from kalergie's, it appears it's going to turn out to be an ISM system. If so, this will mean that true gambitting will be more difficult.

the exception will always be the slow train that travels from CAD to USD via DLR & DLR.U. This will always be easy to carry out. However, travelling in the opposite direction, ie from DLR.U to DLR, or carrying out true gambits - which are always instant arbitrage - might always be difficult at questrade.


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## Kalergie (Jan 7, 2011)

Here is an update. It has been one week and it appears to me like the journal worked. I had DLR.TO on my CAD side of the margin account. Now I have DLR.TO on my USD side. However, was the security not supposed to be called DLR.U.TO? When I sell the security, shall I sell DLR.TO or DLR.U.TO?


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

I saw DLR.U.TO on my USD account.

I'd recommend confirm with Questrade before selling.

PS: I've seen some of my USD securities show up under my CAD account. For example, I had seen VTI in my RRSP CAD account. So looks like the system is flexible enough to allow for that to happen. So I'd say the journal did not happen. They may had simply move your CAD DLR.TO into the USD account as DLR.TO.

You should see DLR.U.TO in your USD account.


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## Kalergie (Jan 7, 2011)

Update. It was indeed not done correctly. I called and they corrected it within 1 day. So it took a while, but to be fair, I was out of town for a while and wasnt able to call Questrade earlier. I guess if you are persistent, it will be much quicker.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i'm so glad. Kalergie you are a brave person to have served as one of the advance men. Reports from yourself & slacker help pave the way at questrade so others can follow more easily.

reading between the lines now, it appears that a manual journal by a questrade representative is required (this is like the td & scotia ISM systems but unlike the bmo & roybank ADP systems.)

slacker was lucky in that his email was intercepted by a representative who initiated an instant journal. But you were not lucky, in that your email was received by a rep who not only took the slower journal route but, in fact, journalled the wrong stock.

i'm not mentioning these details to knock questrade in any way. On the contrary, it sounds as if questrade did an ace job for both you & slacker, although your case required quite a lot of extra help from yourself.

since it appears that questrade's platform is ISM, this means that it will always be a complicated operation for a questrade representative to handle the necessary journal request for a gambit trade.

if i were the client, i believe i would favour phone contact for the journal instruction. Reason ? it would be much easier to tell if a representative understands what has to be done to complete a gambit. When sending an email, one has no idea who is reading it at the receiving end or what their comprehension really is or even what they are going to do. This is probably why other brokers will not accept gambit or gambit-type instructions by email, as mentioned upthread.


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## Kalergie (Jan 7, 2011)

Thanks, humble, I am glad I can help. Let me add more to my experience with Questrade. After my last post, Questrade swapped DLR.U.TO back to DLR.TO within not even a day. I had not sold it within that timeframe. What was particularly confusing was that 1) DLR.TO was still on my USD side and B) the message received in MyQuestrade confirming a successful journal was deleted. It was as if it had never happened. I called Questrade and the rep was not able to explain to me what happened. He only told me that the journal was successful the first time and that he could only repeat the process. This time the journal took less than a day. As I expected another very short time frame, I sold the shares immediately. However, it was after trading hours on a Friday......Today, I am looking at my positions, and guess what. DLR.U.TO is again back at DLR.TO. Still on my USD side. And I now have a queued order to sell DLR.U.TO even though, on paper, I dont even own it. 
And btw, when I spoke to the rep, he confirmed to me that there is no limitation on the time frame DLR.U.TO is journaled to my USD side. This is obviously not the case.


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## SW20 MR2 (Dec 18, 2010)

I posted this in another thread, but here was my experience with the gambit on Questrade for converting USD to CAD:

- Bought DLR.U using USD in my margin account
- Requested journal from DLR.U to DLR via online chat help
- Request completed overnight and showed as DLR in my positions the next day HOWEVER it was showing DLR as a USD position instead of a CAD position
- Requested via online chat help that they'd look into it twice
- Finally called the phone help and rep explained that it was a simple system display issue
- Sold DLR while still on the phone, and rep confirmed that it was in CAD

Aside from dealing with the not-too-useful reps thru online chat, it wasn't a problem. Now I know what to expect, and the next time should be smooth.


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## Kalergie (Jan 7, 2011)

Ok thanks. I believe that my experience should not be taken as a benchmark for Questrade. In addition to a lack of knowledge, I have not had the time to be on top of this every day as I have been travelling quite a lot abroad. These things need attention and time. Next time, I will do the gambit during my down time. 
BTW: SW20 MR2 I really like your car. I have one myself.


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## PatInTheHat (May 7, 2012)

Seems appropriate that I post my results here as this thread helped me immensely and I had something rather interesting happen.

Converting USD to CAD:
Purchased DLR.U @ 9.94
Noticed this transaction in my history at midnight: Bought DLR.TO @ $ 9.944 (note I had yet to ask for the stock to be journaled, the system seemed to automatically do this)
Sold DLR.TO @ $9.86

Wound up making about .5% which I don't quite understand how, perhaps someone could explain?


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## Banalanal (Mar 28, 2011)

I want to convert 100k plus from US to CDN. I've read the article and threads. Just want to make sure I am clear.
1.Why are people waiting over-night or longer? Can't you just buy TD.us over the phone, ask them to journal while still on the phone, ask them to sell TD.ca while still on the phone at the market price? Can't this be near instant?
2.Is the definition of "journaling" just converting securities held from one currency into another?

Thanks.


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## Banalanal (Mar 28, 2011)

And does it make sense to use the dlr method going from US to CDN or just CDN to US? I want it instantly, no market or currency risks...

Thanks.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

one would not use the DLRs for an instant gambit because there's no point gifting the spread - it's supposed to be about 2 per mil but might be higher - to horizons beta.

one would use a pricey stock like td because if one is going to be charged an agent-handled commission based on so many pennies per share, one wishes to use as few shares as possible.

here is a link about how to gambit live & instant in td waterhouse cash or margin accounts. 

http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/instant-norbert-gambit-for-all-td-waterhouse-investment-accounts/

note that online gambitting can be done instantly, with 2 cheap online commissions, at bmo & roybank. Also at tdw registered accounts (but not tdw non-registered.)

i don't know how gambitting gets done at questrade. There have been a few clients who have posted here. It's not clear from their reports what the questrade trading platform can or cannot do.

the worst that could happen, commission-wise, is that a questrade instant gambitter will pay 2 representative-handled commissions. He might be able to to reduce one of these to an online commission by having his online buy order prepared & ready to go once he locates a phone representative who will do the sell order. As described in the above-linked article about tdw.

ps there will always be a small risk window, even with a gambit that is as instant as possible. The gambitter is dealing between 2 different markets, there are no guarantees whatsoever.


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## Loon (Apr 12, 2012)

FWIW, I just did this at RBC Direct Investing. I bought online and then called immediately after hitting 'confirm' to request journaling. The guy was confused and it became apparent that I was simply after US cash in my account. He said I didn't need to call him and could do it all on line, I just have to buy the shares in CDN in the CDN account, select the US account for selling and select the US market for selling, and the journaling would happen automatically without any exchange costs and only the cost of the 2 trades. I'm now looking at a positive stock quantity on the CDN side and a negative stock quantity on the US side along with what appears to be the correct amount of US cash. He said it would take 3 days to settle but that the transaction is done and I'm not exposed to the share that I used in the gambit. 

Is there any chance he was confused and that there actually is exchange fees hidden in the transaction?


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Loon said:


> Is there any chance he was confused and that there actually is exchange fees hidden in the transaction?


No, there will be no fees.

I have done this with RBC DI many times and it is both automatic and fee free.


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm hearing reports that Questrade's new platform has issues with selling DLR.U, can anyone confirm this?


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## wladek (Feb 24, 2013)

FrugalTrader said:


> I'm hearing reports that Questrade's new platform has issues with selling DLR.U, can anyone confirm this?


I'm in the middle of a gambit with Questrade. It's a little unsettling considering the volatility of CADUSD at the moment. I bought DLR.TO and a few minutes after the buy order was filled I initiated a secure chat on Questrade's site and asked them to journal all the shares to DLR.U.TO. I was told the journal order was submitted and should be completed in 2-3 days. I had expected this based on what I've read in this thread, but as I mentioned earlier, it's a little unsettling right now! I requested the journal on Tuesday so it should become evident today or tomorrow whether it worked or not.

I'll follow up when it's complete.


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

No need to worry about the volatility, your exchange rate was locked in when you purchased DLR.TO.


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## wladek (Feb 24, 2013)

FrugalTrader said:


> No need to worry about the volatility, your exchange rate was locked in when you purchased DLR.TO.


DLR.U.TO still fluctuates too. Google shows its 52 week high/low at 9.60 - 10.54. Over the past week it was 9.96 - 9.98. So it does seem that I could fudge the conversion up or down depending on where DLR.U.TO is sitting at when I'm ready to sell. Am I not getting something here?


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## PartyFauxHawk (Mar 27, 2013)

@wladek:

This is pretty common. If you don't see the shares journaled right away, you may want to call back. As someone mentioned before, the CSR with the right privileges can do it in an instant.

@everyone using Questrade to do Norbert's gambit.

If you're having trouble, I have written a post about it a little while ago, with some lessons learned. http://ourjourneyforward.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/a-better-way-to-exchange-cad-to-usd/


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## wladek (Feb 24, 2013)

PartyFauxHawk said:


> @wladek:
> 
> This is pretty common. If you don't see the shares journaled right away, you may want to call back. As someone mentioned before, the CSR with the right privileges can do it in an instant.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link. The question is, how do you get the right CSR in the first place? Is it acceptable to just ask to speak to their supervisor or someone with privileges who can do it right away? I've contacted two now (albeit, on their secure chat). The first to initiate the journal request (on Tuesday) who said it would take 2-3 days and then another I talked to yesterday who said the same thing "it could take 2 to 4" days.


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## PartyFauxHawk (Mar 27, 2013)

wladek said:


> Thanks for the link.


 You're welcome


wladek said:


> The question is, how do you get the right CSR in the first place?


 Don't do online chat. Call. It's free to journal. Tell them you need this to go through as soon as possible.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

wladek said:


> DLR.U.TO still fluctuates too. Google shows its 52 week high/low at 9.60 - 10.54. Over the past week it was 9.96 - 9.98. So it does seem that I could fudge the conversion up or down depending on where DLR.U.TO is sitting at when I'm ready to sell. Am I not getting something here?


One side of DLR stays flat.. around 9.98 I believe, so you lock in your exchange rate, at the time of purchase. Subtract the spread bid ask+ commission and there is your costs to convert. 

After you lock in your trade, of course, currency will still fluctuate day to day. You could buy today and cad can keep falling like it has. But you locked in your price, during the time of purchase.


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## wladek (Feb 24, 2013)

Jungle said:


> One side of DLR stays flat.. around 9.98 I believe, so you lock in your exchange rate, at the time of purchase. Subtract the spread bid ask+ commission and there is your costs to convert.
> 
> After you lock in your trade, of course, currency will still fluctuate day to day. You could buy today and cad can keep falling like it has. But you locked in your price, during the time of purchase.


@Jungle It's been fluctuating around 9.96 to 9.99

@PartyFauxHawk I called on Friday to get a status update and told them I'd like it settled that day, but after some time on hold I was told that they'll do their best to get it completed today, but that they have to coordinate with another department to get it done and that's why it takes some time. I was told I might have it journalled by the end of the day, but they emailed me later and said they couldn't make it happen that trading day and that it would be in place for Monday. He reiterated the 2-3 day policy.


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## wladek (Feb 24, 2013)

It's Monday morning and it's still not done. Actually, apparently the journal is complete but the trading platform isn't up-to-date and it's showing up as DLR.TO. I was told it's going to be another day before it would be updated because the process happens over night.

This is really getting frustrating!


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## Silverbird (Mar 5, 2013)

Hopefully this doesn't rehash too much, but I have done the Gambit in the past and again last week with Questrade. 

Since I last did this in March (or so) they’ve changed and simplified it.
First make sure your currency settlement options are set to “trade currency” (account management > currency settlement)

1) Buy DLR as usual in IQ – will use up your CAD funds, and commission free (except ECN fees) as it’s an ETF
2) *Call the trade desk* and ask them to journal DLR over to DLR.U. Will be free and the agent suggested that it will show up in IQ within an hour.
3) wait for the DLR.U shares to show up in IQ
NOTE: for the remainder of the day the DLR shares will also show (so you’ll have double the equity value) – don’t touch these ones.
4) Sell DLR.U as usual in IQ – you’ll get $USD less the normal commission.

Done.

Just to clarify, don't use an online chat with a CSR, don't call the CSR, you need to call the trade desk. Don't get scared while on hold with the messages that "normal trading fees apply, please use the web" etc - Journaling can't be done in IQ, so will be free.

The trader will go through some security questions, and will know what journaling is and what you want done, escp once they see DLR in there.


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## wladek (Feb 24, 2013)

Silverbird said:


> 2) *Call the trade desk* and ask them to journal DLR over to DLR.U. Will be free and the agent suggested that it will show up in IQ within an hour.


How do you navigate their phone system to get to the trade desk? Would I use the same menu options as if I were having someone assist me with a trade (where they mention the additional fee)?


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Yes I remember hearing an option for the "trade desk".
Thank you Silverbird for this tip and instruction.. I will be attempting a DLR in the future with Questrade.


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## wladek (Feb 24, 2013)

I'm at it again. I purchased DLR.TO and then navigated my way to the trade desk. Everything seemed to be going well until he asked me when I purchased the shares. I said "20 minutes ago" (the order was filled and I had the position) and was told I would have to wait a business day and that the earliest he could do it would be Monday morning (I purchased the shares around 2 PM EST on Friday). When I asked why he said that's just their policy. Not knowing what's involved in making a journal request, I have no idea if what he said was a legitimate excuse or not, but the impression I have was that journaling should be a straightforward exercise for a securities trader. Is this just an artificial roadblock to deter people from using the gambit to exchange funds on QT?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

here is what the rumour mill is whispering:

from time to time, when markets are busy, questrade feels swamped with the ever-increasing crowd of gambitters, who phone out of the blue & ask for instant journals.

in the past, trading representatives have usually tried to cooperate with clients, have even been known to journal within the hour.

but, says rumour, the volume of gambit demands at questrade has risen by now to a level where management wants to cool this traffic slightly, take time to see what kind of more permanent arrangement can be developed.

this is why some agents are saying yes while other agents are saying no. Rumour says it all depends on how busy/overworked they are.

folks do know that an online broker's goal is to automate everything? but arbitrage trading - which is what a gambit operation is - is not automated. Save & except for the BMO & roybank platforms - plus the TD rrsp platform - there's a fair amount of manual labour for a discount broker to perform.

TD rotated through this same issue a couple years ago. Their solution was to charge agent-handled commissions for gambit operations in cash or margin accounts. Meanwhile, their registered account platforms were - and still are - merrilly executing perfect online gambit trades, instantly, every step within a split second of the preceding. One could not ask for anything better.

if any questrade client can think of a really good solution for questrade - one that will be fair to the broker while also allowing the instant gambits which clients want - why not communicate this solution to them?

(signed)
amazing what a dumb pie can pick up at the bottom of the scullery


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## wladek (Feb 24, 2013)

I was willing to swallow their old posted rate of 0.5% in registered accounts, but 1.99% is getting a little ridiculous. I understand their need to make money, somehow, but they should come up with more creative ways to do it. It is a discount brokerage after all!

I'm only trying to exchange funds for my registered account. Can you recommend the least expensive way for me to do this? Is it possible to create an account at a bank or brokerage with a more favourable rates and then transfer the resulting USD funds to my questrade registered accounts?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

wladek said:


> I'm only trying to exchange funds for my registered account. Can you recommend the least expensive way for me to do this? Is it possible to create an account at a bank or brokerage with a more favourable rates and then transfer the resulting USD funds to my questrade registered accounts?



for frequent forex trading, the best place would probably be IB, although there would be complications if you have no other use for an IB brokerage account.

to the best of my knowledge, right now it's possible to gambit online, instantly, in registered accounts, at these 3 brokers: td direct, bmo & roybank.

notice that the latter 2 - bmo, rb - also have USD rrsps.

i don't know of any bank that would have low FX rates.

some people report doing well at knightsbridge or XE dot com as less expensive low-cost forex dealers. They would still cost considerably more than a gambit trade. 

other than IB or any other true forex platform, the best bet is always going to be currency gambits.

as for your dilemma-du-weekend: it sounds like things will shape up tomorrow or early this week at questrade. It's a good idea IMHO to gambit a fair number of $$ simply because of the trouble involved. Once an investor has sufficient USD, one would keep the currency, ie don't gambit back into CAD.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

One thing you might try is asking them if they will offer you a better rate on FX. I classify the FX spread as a stupid/naive tax. Companies will gladly collect somewhat hidden fees from customers that don't know or don't care. This is called segmentation, and it's at work in car sales, cell phone plans, retail (high-lo promotions, offering discounts when requested, price matching). Sometimes it is as simple as asking, and maybe saying what you would do otherwise. Maybe Questrade is willing to take a 0.5% spread, especially if it's on $100k when the alternative is making $10 in commission and tying up one of their trade desk employees.


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## seto (Sep 10, 2013)

So I'm totally new at this and would like to find ways to save on foreign exchange rates, fees, costs, etc. since I have a very small account. Can I do this using a TFSA at Questrade?


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## Saniokca (Sep 5, 2009)

Just chatted with questrade. It was probably summarized somewhere in the thread but just in case, here are the steps if you want to convert CAD to USD:
1) Pick a stock that trades on both the Toronto Stock Exchange (TSE) and New York Stock Exchange (NYSE). Let's say TD.
2) buy a stock like TD on TSE.
3) Call or open a chat window with questrade and ask to journal the shares on NYSE.
4) Once the TD stock has the US symbol you can sell it for US dollars.

So for a $10,000 transaction you pay $10 in fees instead of $205.

Did I get it right?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I had to call their trade desk, at least for DLR. This is because their web application doesn't support tickers like DLR.u (USD version). Maybe what you suggest will work with TD, but I haven't tried it. I didn't want to take any systemic risk if I had to hold for a few days.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Yea but the problem is they want a few days to do the journal...also why not us dlr..free trade to buy and no risk to hold overnight because your exchange rate is locked in at the time of purchase. 


Imagine you held a bank stock for three days while questrade waits to journal.. Then it tanks on bad news or something.


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## GalacticPineapple (Feb 28, 2013)

Just did the DLR journal by calling the trade desk. Was told it would be done tomorrow morning, and that I would be able to sell the DLR.U shares online.


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## GalacticPineapple (Feb 28, 2013)

GalacticPineapple said:


> Just did the DLR journal by calling the trade desk. Was told it would be done tomorrow morning, and that I would be able to sell the DLR.U shares online.


Confirmed - journaling took one day by calling trade desk, and was able to sell DLR.U shares online.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Nice - So you buy DLR.TO online, call or message asking for the journal to DLR.U.TO. They will be able to do this at the start of the next business day (suppose I could just call the next day and have them do it over the phone?). Then DLR.U.TO will show up online and you sell it there for US cash on that second day. Simple as that?

Going the opposite way. You buy DLR.U.TO. Wait 3 business days for the trade to settle, call for the journal back to DLR.TO, wait two business days and it will show up online for you to sell in CAD.

Am I missing anything?

Like a sucker, I've converted about 14k to USD over the last 6 months thinking I was getting charged 0.5%, and not bothering to learn the DLR trick or gambit because I didn't think it was worth it. Looks like I'm out $250!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

peterk said:


> Nice - So you buy DLR.TO online, call or message asking for the journal to DLR.U.TO. They will be able to do this at the start of the next business day (suppose I could just call the next day and have them do it over the phone?). Then DLR.U.TO will show up online and you sell it there for US cash on that second day. Simple as that?
> 
> Going the opposite way. You buy DLR.U.TO. Wait 3 business days for the trade to settle, call for the journal back to DLR.TO, wait two business days and it will show up online for you to sell in CAD.
> 
> Am I missing anything?



yes you're missing a lot.

read the posts from numerous questrade clients. They confirm that sometimes this broker is willing to journal fast but sometimes it takes days.

a source mentioned to me that this broker is journalling on a best efforts basis but when busy, of course they're going to put an agent-handled request with net loss commish on the back burner! everyone should be able to understand that, from a broker's point of view, a gambit using zero commish DLR plus $4.95 to sell DLR.U, while taking up 10 minutes or more of an agent's time, is pure exploitation! there's a post on this upthread.

in addition, going from DLR.U to DLR will not work properly unless client is able to convince questrade to journal shares that exact same second (a next-to-impossible feat). The reason is that only DLR.U is currency pegged. Therefore client travelling USD to CAD via the DLRs could face up to 3 days or more of currency fluctuation before he'll be allowed to sell DLR.

parties going from USD to CAD are better off learning to gambit correctly (ie instantly & seamlessly), using a carrier stock such as RY or TD that does not have the built-in fee slippage which the DLRs, being low-cost etfs, do have.

hint: clients w clout at questrade should request that they settle down & adopt a standardized policy. Such clients should be prepared to agree that questrade should charge a full agent-handled commish for an instant gambit. This is the stage that TD passed through - successfully - two years ago.

however, TD's electronic trading platform does support instant & cheap gambits in registered accounts for a couple of low-cost online commissions. This feature is a fantastic advantage for countless TD clients. It's only for gambits in cash or margin accounts that TD clients need to recruit an agent to carry out the sell side.


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## GalacticPineapple (Feb 28, 2013)

peterk said:


> Nice - So you buy DLR.TO online, call or message asking for the journal to DLR.U.TO. They will be able to do this at the start of the next business day (suppose I could just call the next day and have them do it over the phone?). Then DLR.U.TO will show up online and you sell it there for US cash on that second day. Simple as that?


In my case it took one day by calling the trade desk. I've read reports of it taking anywhere from a few minutes to a few days. 

I haven't tried going the opposite way.


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## Justin1980 (Feb 23, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> hint: clients w clout at questrade should request that they settle down & adopt a standardized policy. Such clients should be prepared to agree that questrade should charge a full agent-handled commish for an instant gambit. This is the stage that TD passed through - successfully - two years ago.
> 
> however, TD's electronic trading platform does support instant & cheap gambits in registered accounts for a couple of low-cost online commissions. This feature is a fantastic advantage for countless TD clients. It's only for gambits in cash or margin accounts that TD clients need to recruit an agent to carry out the sell side.


Could i ask you for a bit of detail regarding this statement you made re: the gambit?

So im presuming you're with TD, is this correct? Can i ask what their standard commission is for this? With questrade, would it not have to be less than questrades (1 buy + 1 sell commission of $4.95 + $4.95) ie less than $9.90?

Thanks brother!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think it would be fair for questrade to charge the full service broker commission for that service. I don't expect them to work for nothing, and offering instant gambits could cost them a lot of forex revenue.


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## amitdi (May 31, 2012)

Justin1980 said:


> Could i ask you for a bit of detail regarding this statement you made re: the gambit?
> 
> So im presuming you're with TD, is this correct? Can i ask what their standard commission is for this? With questrade, would it not have to be less than questrades (1 buy + 1 sell commission of $4.95 + $4.95) ie less than $9.90?
> 
> Thanks brother!


For Questrade, it should be 4.95. Buying ETF is free, remember...

I did the gambit for the 1st time in RESP. Bought DLR.TO on Oct 22, called Questrade on Oct 23 - rep did the gambit, told me that it would take 2-3 business days. On Oct 24, I had an email from them saying the gambit is processed. Put a sell limit order on Oct 24 for DLR.U.TO.

Buy = free
Jornaling = free
Sell = 4.95

This is besides the point, but I gained some 1-2% already because I didnt hedge and USD rose sharply in last cpl days. I did hedge today in my OANDA FX acct so I wont gain/lose because of USDCAD movements.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

I called the trade desk today twice and they refused to journey it for me over the phone.. told me regular customer service would have to do it in 3-4 business days!! 

I'll be calling them tomorrow and ask if they can do this faster.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

That service sucks Jungle, sorry to hear! Let us know how it turns out.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

jungle perhaps you might update your file? there's an insight in post # 62 upthread.

journalling at questrade, as it turns out, is a manual operation. 

imho it's unreasonable to expect busy licensed representatives at questrade to stop work & attend to a freebie's request for instant journalling, when all the broker will normally gain from such a deal would be one meagre $4.95 commission on the sell side.

i imagine it costs questrade more than $4.95 to custom cater to every demand for instant gambit journalling. This broker says it's receiving more journal gambit demands than ever before. Everyone should be able to understand why they have become reluctant to offer instant gambit journal services. It's because this is a money-loser for them.

instead, they are handling journal requests during non-market hours at night. It's possible they are also batching journals.

my own sympathies align with questrade on this issue. Upthread, we can also see at least one cmf member who understands that this broker is running a business operation, not a nanny operation.

it is possible that an instant gambit journal could be performed at questrade if a client were to offer to pay the full agent's telephone commission. This, i believe, starts at $45, plus other fees in addition to the base fee? offering to pay this commish might produce the desired instant journal for a gambit trade. This is the approach that worked to unblock the same issue at TD a couple of years ago.


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## braintootired (Nov 4, 2013)

Wait, doesn't Questrade have FX trading? Why not convert your money there, then transfer it back?


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## PoolAndRapid (Dec 3, 2013)

..


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

I just journaled DLR with Questrade online chat and got the same 5 business day turn around.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

I was able to get a journal 4 business days after. After I checked with Bank of Canada daily rates and calculated that I was able to convert about 8k for a cost of $7.00, including trades.

First time using DLR and it's weird, I guess I'm not used to it. I set my limit at 9.96, it would not hit, so I lowered it to 9.95 and it partial filled, then price lowered to 9.94, later came back up to 9.96 and filled the remainder at my limit of 9.95.

So the market makers are taking a spread.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

slacker said:


> I emailed them with something like this:
> 
> "Hi,
> 
> ...


Can you clarify, is this for two separate RRSP accounts? Or just both halves (USD/CAD) of the same RRSP account?

I only have a single account that holds both currencies and am not sure if this causes any issue with journaling between currencies...


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Just successfully completed the DLR gambit with 500 shares.

Bought on Monday 500 shares of DLR.TO

Thursday I used the Questrade messenger button to communicate with an agent, which went as follows



> Peter: Can you please journal the 500 shares of DLR.TO held in CAD RRSP account ******* to USD RRSP as DLR.U.TO
> Alpesh: I will be happy to help you with that.
> 
> …
> ...


I then of course forgot to login on Friday to check the status, but when I looked Saturday it was converted to DLR.U.TO. I sold today Monday morning and now have the $USD sitting in my account.

The amount converted was CDN $5,430 to USD $4,977.50 - According to the BOC currency converter that amount on that date should have been USD $4,986. So I guess $10 disappeared somewhere along the way, but that amounts to 0.2%, nothing worth losing sleep over. Overall I am satisfied with the process and result.


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