# Tipping - rules of thumb?



## Spidey

Just wonder what rules of thumb others use for tipping -- particularly at restaurants. For example, the rule of thumb for good service seems to be 15% - 20% these days. What do you use? And here's something I've wondered -- Is that 15% before tax or after tax?

Then my biggest dilemma is when we take the whole family out to dinner. For example, suppose my wife and I go out and the bill comes to $60 -- the tip would come out to about $9.00. But say I take the "kids" (they all take adult portions) and the bill comes to $130 -- that's a tip of about $20, which seems a little steep for perhaps an hour's time. eg. $20(tip) + $9 (minimum wage)=$29 dollars per hour and that doesn't even include tips from other tables.

So my other question -- Is it generally understood that families should get a bit of a break on the 15% rule or would this be considered cheap?


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## slacker

10% on the subtotal (do not tip the tax), round down to the next dollar.


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## GeniusBoy27

The conventional tip is 15-20% in Canada before tax, and unfortunately, there is no break on families. The idea is that the tip substitutes for the low wages of servers.

But it does depend on service. A tip is a gratuity. If the service is bad, I've tipped next to nothing. If it's amazingly good, I've gone higher than 20%. It really depends, but overall I aim for 15%.


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## scomac

Spidey said:


> Then my biggest dilemma is when we take the whole family out to dinner. For example, suppose my wife and I go out and the bill comes to $60 -- the tip would come out to about $9.00. But say I take the "kids" (they all take adult portions) and the bill comes to $130 -- that's a tip of about $20, which seems a little steep for perhaps an hour's time. eg. $20(tip) + $9 (minimum wage)=$29 dollars per hour and that doesn't even include tips from other tables.


Well, for starters, the tip doesn't go to your server per se, it is shared with the entire restaurant staff including those in the kitchen, so your $20 tip for an hour's work is likely being shared by upwards of a dozen employees.

For tipping guidelines, I have pretty much stuck with adding up the total taxes and using that amount as the tip when paying by CC. If I pay cash then it will be whatever amount near that total that rounds out to a whole dollar when added to the bill.

I have found that due to the fact tips are shared, it's pretty much pointless trying to punish for poor service via tip. If you aren't happy with some aspect of the meal, complain to the manager. They are more than happy to comp. a portion of the bill if you aren't happy about something.


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## m3s

I worked manual labour when I was young for min wage. Toughest job in my life bar none and very hard on the body. No one tipped me

Some girl-friends at the same time were waitresses. I guess they deserved more than I did

I knew lots of chicks in university who pulled in obscene tips working the bars, like more than I make now. They always had lots of expensive clothes and accessories

I still tip generously but more so that they don't hate me the next time they see me


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## Dana

We typically tip 20% in restaurants. I also tip 15-20% to my hairdresser. Ditto if I get my nails done to the nail technician. I tried to tip the dog groomer, (our dog has some special needs and she is very accomodating) but she said she is uncomfortable with tipping and won't take it?!

I have worked in customer service and I know how difficult it can be.


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## Cal

I do 15% give or take a bit depending upon the service. I don't mind giving a great tip for great service.

I do however have a problem with some of the establishments that impose a mandatory 13-15% tip regardless of the service received, or quality of food. I haven't done it yet, however I am sure that I will leave a restaurant based on this mandatory tip in the future...(I will let them know why I am leaving though)


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## Dana

My husband and I once went out for dinner to a nice steakhouse with another couple close to Christmastime. We had separate bills (2 bills - one for each couple). The other couple's bill was $98.00. They left $100 cash on the table to cover their bill. The service was great, the food was great and we had a lovely evening. We asked why they were only tipping $2. He said, "because it's their job to serve. No body tips me at my job." He was an investment advisor and his wife was a doctor. 

My husband was so shocked and embarassed that he increased our tip to compensate for the tip they didn't leave. We haven't eaten in a restaurant with them since.


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## Berubeland

I will tip for great service, if my waitress cannot say hello, get my order right, or treat me well forget it. I can and have left zero.

This actually happened to me a while ago at East Side Mario's in Etobicoke. We came into the restaurant and were seated by the hostess. No one acknowledged us or asked if we needed anything or even gave us menus for about 20 minutes. A few people even came by and asked us if we had been served yet but went away without asking us for drinks or leaving us a menu again. Then a guy comes over and apologizes. He takes our order then leaves. Meanwhile we are now dealing with cranky toddler. 

We ordered an appetizer which came pretty quickly, my food came, my husbands food came but my kids food didn't come. I asked our new server where is my son's food? He apologized again, said he forgot and put the order in. My son's food came about another 20 minutes later. We shared our food of course but it was spicy and not exactly well tolerated. 

Back at the ranch, my husband went to the men's room and it was so disgusting he had to call the server over to tell him about it and get it cleaned. 

No Tip. 0 Zilch. Oh and with a toddler we go when it's quiet before the "rush" at around 5 pm. 

It was so bad I felt like leaving without paying the whole bill never mind a tip. Usually I leave a nice tip around 15% rounded up but if abused not one red penny. Otherwise what is their incentive to improve?


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## m3s

Yea I have a really cheap friend who doesn't like to tip. We were in Mtl during F1 weekend and he was unhappy with how long it took to get a beer so he didn't tip. There was kind of an awkward moment as she waited for a tip and then she never came back

I always tip. I even tip my hairdresser but I wonder why when it's $15 for a 5 minute cut. I can understand the reason for tipping quality service but personally I think it's condescending to decide what they deserve and rude for them to expect it no matter what


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## the-royal-mail

Ah yes the dirty bathroom problem. These days I find 75% of places or more have dirty bathrooms. It's like they've been forgotten and the place is understaffed. The washrooms remind me of busy highway truckstop washrooms in terms of cleanliness. What is one to do when you're there with some buddies and pressed for time? If they're short staffed, I hate to dock my server on his tips (when cleaning the bathroom likely isn't his job)...tough one.

Also, what's your opinion of tipping when the service is slow but the REASON is because they've only got 1-2 servers on staff and they're obviously having a hard time keeping up?

I think most people don't realize how tough of a job waitressing really is. I say, if she's pulling in good tips she's doing a heck of a good job. I could never do what they do. Kudos to all the great waitresses out there!


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## Jungle

Usually we just tip what ever the tax is. If the service sucks, we lower the tip. One time I was tight with money (not that it's changed lol) and I did not leave a tip. 

I delivered pizza for three years and received everything from $0 tip to $25 on a big order.


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## hystat

15% before taxes - which is about 13% of the Ontario total usually-that % will vary depending on alcohol in most provinces I suspect


mode3sour said:


> I worked manual labour when I was young for min wage.


that's why tipping exists for servers, the same minimum wage does not apply


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## m3s

hystat said:


> that's why tipping exists for servers, the same minimum wage does not apply



In what province? Wasn't like that when I was min wage. Wikipedia says it's only like that in Quebec and I just noticed min wage has doubled in 10 years

Just seems like an overly complicated system that pisses everybody off. People get screwed for things that aren't their fault and people probably commit tax fraud

If you have a problem, talk to the manager or take you business elsewhere.


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## the-royal-mail

The last time I looked into this, I believe regular min wage in ON was $6.70 but about $5.85 for waitresses and bartenders, logic being is they knew darn well tips were quite generous and were cash in pocket. So the min wage for them was less.


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## bean438

Dana said:


> My husband and I once went out for dinner to a nice steakhouse with another couple close to Christmastime. We had separate bills (2 bills - one for each couple). The other couple's bill was $98.00. They left $100 cash on the table to cover their bill. The service was great, the food was great and we had a lovely evening. We asked why they were only tipping $2. He said, "because it's their job to serve. No body tips me at my job." He was an investment advisor and his wife was a doctor.
> 
> My husband was so shocked and embarassed that he increased our tip to compensate for the tip they didn't leave. We haven't eaten in a restaurant with them since.


Pathetic. (your "friends" not you) Having worked 5 years in the food industry I found it to be typical of higher wage earners to tip poorly or not at all.

May I suggest new friends?


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## ghostryder

bean438 said:


> Pathetic. (your "friends" not you) Having worked 5 years in the food industry I found it to be typical of higher wage earners to tip poorly or not at all.
> 
> May I suggest new friends?



And I find it to be typical of servers to expect to get paid twice (or more) to do the job they are getting a wage for.

I see no reason to pay twice for someone to do their job. Their wage is built into the price of the food I buy. Why should I have to pay more?

The average server can easily make double to 4x their hourly wage in tips. And I have never met a server who ever declared any of their tips on their income tax return.


A few months back in the local paper there was a article about bartenders. One of them interviewed said that he was done uni but he couldn't "afford" to stop bartending and pursue his career because he was "averaging $500 a night tax free" (his words). I guess he figures that CRA employees don't read the newspaper.


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## ChrisR

mode3sour said:


> I even tip my hairdresser but I wonder why when it's $15 for a 5 minute cut.


Funny, I tip my hairdresser about 40%. She has to remember my name, and how I like my haircut. She has to spend more than 30 min on me, and she has to talk and entertain me the WHOLE time.

On the other hand, I can't stand tipping a waiter more than a buck or two. I can't remember the last time I had a waiter that visited my table more than 4 times over the course of an hour. Really, if I could tip anyone in the restaurant, it would be the cook. The cook is the only one whose job affects whether or not I enjoy my meal.


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## the-royal-mail

On the same vein, I've noticed that many of the places I get takeout food from are placing a tip jar right beside the cash register. I never tip those. I don't use the drive thru. I park my car, walk in, ask for what I want and then stand or sit in the lobby waiting. Not really a tipable service in my view.


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## GeniusBoy27

On a total side note, when travelling, know what your country's usual policy is. I was on honeymoon in Australia, tipping my customary 15%. I was wondering when we went back to places, why we were getting such amazing service. Well, in Australia, it isn't customary to tip.

The servers in our hotel loved us ... and would sit and chat with us and get us everything. I mean instantaneous service the second we got to the restaurant. *laughing*

Oh well, I guess we did pay for it.


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## steve_jay33

GeniusBoy27 said:


> On a total side note, when travelling, know what your country's usual policy is. I was on honeymoon in Australia, tipping my customary 15%. I was wondering when we went back to places, why we were getting such amazing service. Well, in Australia, it isn't customary to tip.
> 
> The servers in our hotel loved us ... and would sit and chat with us and get us everything. I mean instantaneous service the second we got to the restaurant. *laughing*
> 
> Oh well, I guess we did pay for it.


And isn't that the point of tipping, to get great service, or reward great service.

My rule of thumb: If it is a place I go regularly and they will remember me I tip at least 20%. Next time I am there, I get great seats, fast service, etc. 

If I am out with friends, 15%. (It is the customary thing to do)

If it is a place I am unlikely to return to or they won't remember me 5% or less. 

I call it getting value for my money.


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## Square Root

I like to leave fairly large tips. At restaurants around 20% for good service and higher if we really enjoyed the meal and service. We tip generously for service on tours, cruises, etc when we travel. I figure it rewards the staff for working ( as opposed to welfare) and spreads some of our wealth around. We are retired and know how difficult it is in the service business. Does it kill you to be generous? I hate people who are cheap tippers.


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## m3s

I still think it's disdainful to think you're in a position to decide what someone else deserves for any of these reasons. Especially in restaurants where they all split the tip and get penalized for management mistakes (understaffed = slow service) or because you won't be coming back (if this were true I would never tip)

For the same cultural reasons a lot of people don't tip when they come here, and get treated like s$!t. That looks great on us as a culture doesn't it.

You no longer tip for great service, you tip because it is expected. If it was built into the price everyone would get what they deserve and people would be happier. If the service is not good enough for you, go somewhere more expensive and that pay the servers more


On a side note to royal-mail, I was surprised when my brother told me how much tip he got working at Tim Hortons. He bartends now and makes about as much as my degree - except I work twice the hours


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## ghostryder

devinci said:


> The rule is waiter or waitress need to pay back to restaurant about 3-5% of their sales, doesn't matter they got a good tips or no tips at all from customer.



I would never put up with or agree to this. And if I got fired for it there would be a complaint to the labour department and a civil lawsuit for wrongful dismissal. In some jurisdictions it is illegal to force "tip outs" and even more illegal to force employees to pay a share of sales. 

Even if this is allowed, any server who pays a "tip-out" should be deducting this expense on their income tax. If you have to pay this expense to earn the tips in the first place.....

But of course you aren't going to expense the "tip out" when you are not declaring the tips you are earning in the first place.



devinci said:


> I still tip 15% before tax no matter how bad or how good their service is ( I just can't take it if they yell at me in front of public), because I saw experience at restaurant that I worked for the waiter screaming at customer because they left no tips.



If a server screamed at me for not leaving a tip I would be having a chat with the manager and demanding my whole meal for free.


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## kcowan

I always tip well. 20% for good service. 15% for average service. 10% for mediocre service. I have been there and I think it is time to give back.

When I leave no tip, it is from exceptionally bad service.


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## steve_jay33

It brings up an interesting point.

In Canada is tipping voluntary or expected/mandatory. 

Personally I wished Canada followed the model of tipping is not customary.


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## wheel

kcowan said:


> I always tip well. 20% for good service. 15% for average service. 10% for mediocre service. I have been there and I think it is time to give back.
> 
> When I leave no tip, it is from exceptionally bad service.


And this for me too, or close. I almost always tip 20%. If I get crappy service, I'll grudgingly go to 15%, but only if I'm making a point (not sure who would be getting my point other than my wife, but I digress). I've left minimal tip maybe once or twice over the past 20 years, and only for excessively and repeated bad service and food. 

You'll find people that have worked in this industry will tip like this. _People that haven't worked in the industry complain about their expectations of service for no tips_. Don't hate the player, hate the game. If you think you're going to a restaurant and someone's going to run off their feet for $10/hour minimum wage, better think again. Really. You want good service from $10 staff? When did that start? Wait staff is not paying twice, it's a fine example of commission sales - they get paid if they perform.

Everyone's got stories about the big undeserved cashflow that wait staff make. The reality is that there's 1 or 2 days a week, maybe 2 six hour shifts where they make all their money. You think someone's making $100 an hour on tips from business professionals having the $6 lunch special? Wait staff, good ones, make $25-$40K a year. Claims of their large wealth are greatly exaggerated.

You'll feel better about yourself as a person if you overtip rather than undertip. Next time two of you go out and have a $15 total lunch bill, try throwing a $10 tip.


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## Square Root

Well said Wheel. I totally agree. I bet this thread will now die as the cheapies are embarrassed.


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## the-royal-mail

I agree with wheel - well said!

But my question remains: do those rules also apply to walk-in/takeout business? I never tip for those. I'm not getting delivery or having my table waited on, I'm only getting what I order from the restaurant and nothing more. Usually it's the mgr who brings the takeout from the kitchen. Please clarify this point.


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## andrewf

I'm not tipping $10 on a $15-20 bill. Sorry. Most places that charge that kind of rate don't provide an excess of service. Considering a table of two at a place like that might get 5 minutes of service (I'm being generous). Thus customary $3 -$4 on that bill is fair. 

I'm thinking asian restaurants where you write up your own order on a chit, and they just bring the food to you as it comes out of the pass, and you go to the counter to pay. Why should I pay $10 for service like that?


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## wheel

andrewf said:


> Why should I pay $10 for service like that?


Because you're not paying for the service. You're paying to be nice to someone who's served your meal in a pleasant atmosphere who's run off their feet and a $10 tip makes their day. 

And at that level, it's not about the money. You going broke over $5 vs. $10? None of us are. I look at it as $5 for me to make someone's day. Not much more expensive than a smile and being pleasant. In other words, it's not about the size of the tip vs. the size of the bill, it's about being pleasant.

I don't know about the take out. My wife is clear, she doesn't tip on takeout. Me, I waffle. I either don't tip and feel like I'm being cheap, or I tip and feel odd.


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## GeniusBoy27

I don't tip for takeout.


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## andrewf

wheel said:


> Because you're not paying for the service. You're paying to be nice to someone who's served your meal in a pleasant atmosphere who's run off their feet and a $10 tip makes their day.
> 
> And at that level, it's not about the money. You going broke over $5 vs. $10? None of us are. I look at it as $5 for me to make someone's day. Not much more expensive than a smile and being pleasant. In other words, it's not about the size of the tip vs. the size of the bill, it's about being pleasant.
> 
> I don't know about the take out. My wife is clear, she doesn't tip on takeout. Me, I waffle. I either don't tip and feel like I'm being cheap, or I tip and feel odd.


If you want to give someone $5 to make their day, I think there are a few billion more deserving people on this planet than that server.


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## the-royal-mail

I could debate the point andrewf. Those people work HARD. I am always happy to reward sincere hard work. Most people feel the same way. Who are these more deserving people of whom you speak?


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## andrewf

http://plancanada.ca/view.image?id=2889

$5 for her means not going hungry, not suffering from water-borne illness and having a chance to go to school. I'm sure that server is doing just fine with the customary tip, and if not, they have way more opportunity handed to them on a platter than millions of children like this can hope for. I think we should keep things in perspective. I give the customary tip. If I feel like helping someone out, or 'making their day', I try to do it for someone who actually needs it. 

It doesn't have to be someone in Haiti or Vietnam. It can be buying a sandwich for the homeless guy on the streetcorner.


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## slacker

I think I'm one of those who dislike the idea of tipping, but goes along with it anyway due to social customs and pressure.

Am I a bad person?


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## ghostryder

wheel said:


> You'll find people that have worked in this industry will tip like this. _People that haven't worked in the industry complain about their expectations of service for no tips_. Don't hate the player, hate the game. If you think you're going to a restaurant and someone's going to run off their feet for $10/hour minimum wage, better think again. Really. You want good service from $10 staff? When did that start? Wait staff is not paying twice, it's a fine example of commission sales - they get paid if they perform.



Umm, no. I hate the game so I don't play it. I don't tip unless the service is truly exceptional. If servers don't like the pay they should get a different job. If everybody stopped tipping and servers left the industry restaraunts would be forced to raise wages to attract staff. Just like every other business. But instead they perpetuate they myth that tipping is "customary" and over the years not only continue to perpetuate this, but increase what "customary" is. 

Tipping is paying twice. It is not like commission sales. When I go to a retail store where the employees are paid a commission, their pay, including the commission is built into the price of the product I buy.

And the using the lower server wage as justification for tipping falls flat outside of ON & QC since everywhere else in Canada there is no lower minimum wage for servers.


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## the-royal-mail

The worst is pizza delivery. In addition to pizza being quite expensive, many places now add a delivery charge of $2-4. Put tax on that and you're probably up to $25. After paying that much I'm usually not in much of a tipping mood. I of course do it anyway as I have a high appreciation for hard work, but in recent years my MO was to simply go and pick it up in person and save $$$. And I'm also watching what I eat, so no pizza for the past year.


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## MoneyGal

Thank goodness I am no longer in the service industry! 

For what it's worth, I graduated from (what was it) five consecutive years of university studies without debt by (doing a co-op undergrad and) always working a service job while studying. In the last few months of grad school, I dropped the job (server in a bar) because the hours were killing me. But the pay was phenomenal, and is correlated with service (as most posters are pointing out, over and over). 

You also learn a lot about people when you work in the service industry, particularly bars. It's almost like getting a psych degree at the same time.


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## Max

I have a hard time with tips too. On the one hand, I try to follow what is customary, but on the other, I ask myself what the tip is really achieving.

If I tip more than usual I am generous or rewarding good service?
If I tip less than usual, I am cheap or punishing bad service?

The server will always assume that they have done the best they can and deserve a good tip even if I have an entirely different perspective.

-Does the server actually remember me if I tip them well? No (not very likely I will ever get the same server again with turnover and number of staff to begin with)
-Will the quality of service on my current meal improve if I tip them well? No (tipping is at the end of the meal after the server has finished. If a tip is customary regardless of the experience, we are just paying more without creating incentive to increase quality of service)
-Does tipping as a percentage of the bill make sense? No (If I choose to order a more expensive menu item, does this mean they provide a better service and deserve a higher tip?, Are the waiters more deserving of a tip in a more expensive restaurant?).

I agree with another poster that it is a little condescending to decide what the server deserves and a little rude to expect a tip.

I try to fix the tip around $5 regardless of the price of the meal. $20 meal and $50 meal will still get around $5 tip. However, at a more expensive place, I may go with a percentage to avoid appearing cheap.

Tipping has become a karmic equivalent to a wishing well. People seem to continue doing it despite the lack of any logical reason to do so. Tipping in the past may have represented a reward for excellent service, but today it is charity. I choose to donate additional money to my hardworking server, but I cannot expect other people to support the same cause I do or to donate the same amount.

If you dont want to leave a tip, then dont. There will be no consequence whatsoever.


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## Square Root

I still think bad tippers are just cheap!


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## andrewf

I think we can all agree that tipping is a very bad feedback mechanism for service quality. I'd rather the restaurant pay their employees properly and raise their prices. I think most people would feel more comfortable complaining to the restaurant about service quality (or any other problems) than stiffing servers on a tip. I don't think this would lead to worse service at all.

Not to mention that killing the culture of tipping means servers actually have to declare their income. Yes I know, they are all wonderful, hardworking saints--I don't think it's too much to ask for them to pay taxes like everyone else.


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## bean438

ghostryder said:


> And I find it to be typical of servers to expect to get paid twice (or more) to do the job they are getting a wage for.
> 
> I see no reason to pay twice for someone to do their job. Their wage is built into the price of the food I buy. Why should I have to pay more?
> 
> The average server can easily make double to 4x their hourly wage in tips. And I have never met a server who ever declared any of their tips on their income tax return.
> 
> 
> A few months back in the local paper there was a article about bartenders. One of them interviewed said that he was done uni but he couldn't "afford" to stop bartending and pursue his career because he was "averaging $500 a night tax free" (his words). I guess he figures that CRA employees don't read the newspaper.



Actually most servers I know do declare "most" of their tips. CRA is fully aware of the industry and can, and do go after people.

You are within your rights to be a tight wad. Myself, I prefer to tip well for great service.

I frequent the same places, and order delivery from the same places, and I tip them well.

In addition to great service, I ALWAYS get a table, I always get fast delivery, not to mention the delivery driver will go out of their way if I ask them to run a small errand for me.

If you look after people, they will also look after you. An extra 5-10 bucks is not gonna kill me.

Even if "some" people dont declare tips, at least they are working. There are way more people doing nothing getting a free ride from all of us.


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## bean438

andrewf said:


> I think we can all agree that tipping is a very bad feedback mechanism for service quality. I'd rather the restaurant pay their employees properly and raise their prices. I think most people would feel more comfortable complaining to the restaurant about service quality (or any other problems) than stiffing servers on a tip. I don't think this would lead to worse service at all.
> 
> Not to mention that killing the culture of tipping means servers actually have to declare their income. Yes I know, they are all wonderful, hardworking saints--I don't think it's too much to ask for them to pay taxes like everyone else.



Actually we dont all agree. If prices were raised, then the cheapskates who dont tip will stop eating out and businesses will close.


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## humble_pie

i'm pleased to see that some people are tipping well. Unless one lives in a hotel & eats out every day, we're not talking a huge amount of money over the course of a year, @ 15 or 20% or higher, are we.

i'd like to focus on the small restaurant bills, the places where you stop in for a quick bite. Staff there work just as hard, probably harder, than waiters in a 5-star restaurant. But they're not tipped nearly as much, so those are the cases where i often tip 30 or 40%. Like i've witnessed people prying 5 quarters out of their wallets & arranging these on the table, which is a shame because it's just as easy to leave a $5 bill. I never consider the quality of service, because i know the staff are rushed & low-paid; but i think to myself that if some one customer leaves a generous tip perhaps it'll brighten up their day & they'll be a better server because of it.

i realize now i tip my hairdresser 60% (never calculated it before) but that's because i don't think she charges enough to begin with. She works hard & honestly and she is kind & thoughtful with all her customers. It's not a pretentious snob establishment. She deserves to be paid with the best, though.

btw i really liked the story about the honeymoon in australia where the bridal pair went around tipping 15% & consequently were given the deluxe royal treatment. What a perfect time to not understand about tipping customs in a foreign country !! And what a perfect mistake !! if it had gone in the opposite direction - ie if they'd tipped nothing because of a mistaken belief that the country they were visiting included service with the prices of hotels & restaurants - it could have cast a cloud over their honeymoon.


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## brad

I spent years working in restaurants and I know what it's like, so I leave generous tips as well.

I also worked for a year delivering furniture. We were paid minimum wage and the work was physically demanding: moving bulky and heavy wooden furniture (hutches, cabinets, armoires, dressers, etc.) up stairs and around impossible corners, having to be ultra-careful to avoid damaging either the furniture or anything in the house, and often dealing with exasperating homeowners who couldn't make up their minds where they wanted the furniture to go once we arrived, so we'd have to place it again and again before they were satisfied.

We were doing this work in Fairfield County, Connecticut, one of the richest suburbs of New York City, and we learned that the "old money" customers would tip us generously while most of the "nouveau riche" customers wouldn't tip us at all and treated us with disdain. We could tell as soon as we pulled into a driveway and saw the house whether we were likely to get tipped or not. The billionaires with beat-up Volkswagens were the best tippers; the aspiring millionaires with four Mercedes in the driveway rarely gave us a cent.


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## wheel

ghostryder said:


> Umm, no. I hate the game so I don't play it. I don't tip unless the service is truly exceptional. If servers don't like the pay they should get a different job. If everybody stopped tipping and servers left the industry restaraunts would be forced to raise wages to attract staff. Just like every other business. But instead they perpetuate they myth that tipping is "customary" and over the years not only continue to perpetuate this, but increase what "customary" is.
> 
> Tipping is paying twice. It is not like commission sales. When I go to a retail store where the employees are paid a commission, their pay, including the commission is built into the price of the product I buy.
> 
> And the using the lower server wage as justification for tipping falls flat outside of ON & QC since everywhere else in Canada there is no lower minimum wage for servers.


Nobody makes you tip. But you and I both leave very distinct yet different impressions on wait staff. Besides, if there weren't non-tippers like yourself, maybe I wouldn't leave behind happy wait staff.

I will say though, that you speak somewhat harshly about the industry, and I can pretty much guarantee that you've never worked in it. For all the ideology, the waitress at your local restaurant is likely someone struggling to make ends meet and run off her feet for even that level of success. All the conversation in the world doesn't change that you and I both know before we set foot in the door that part of the bill is the tip - and in counterpoint to your point, maybe you shouldn't go out and eat if you're not prepared to pay people for their work. Because quite frankly, you're approach right now is forcing people to work on your behalf, for free. And I'm quite against that. You know they're working for tips, you take advantage of their work knowing full well the expectation is a tip, then choose not to pay them. That's not something I'd choose to do.


----------



## andrewf

bean438 said:


> Actually we dont all agree. If prices were raised, then the cheapskates who dont tip will stop eating out and businesses will close.


That doesn't make any sense. The cheapskates aren't paying the premium one way or another, so why would they cause the business to close? Besides, isn't this a case of 'good riddance'? If people don't tip the servers, the restaurant would need to pay their staff well.


----------



## andrewf

wheel said:


> Nobody makes you tip. But you and I both leave very distinct yet different impressions on wait staff. Besides, if there weren't non-tippers like yourself, maybe I wouldn't leave behind happy wait staff.
> 
> I will say though, that you speak somewhat harshly about the industry, and I can pretty much guarantee that you've never worked in it. For all the ideology, the waitress at your local restaurant is likely someone struggling to make ends meet and run off her feet for even that level of success. All the conversation in the world doesn't change that you and I both know before we set foot in the door that part of the bill is the tip - and in counterpoint to your point, maybe you shouldn't go out and eat if you're not prepared to pay people for their work. Because quite frankly, you're approach right now is forcing people to work on your behalf, for free. And I'm quite against that. You know they're working for tips, you take advantage of their work knowing full well the expectation is a tip, then choose not to pay them. That's not something I'd choose to do.


Quite frankly, I don't think it's too much to ask for a restaurant to take care of their own payroll. Isn't part of the service not having to pay individually every person for their part in preparing the meal? That's what the restaurant is for.

Why are we only tipping servers? What about all the unsung heroes in the back of house? Why doesn't the guy hauling garbage out to the dumpster and washing the dishes deserve to have his day brightened by a nice $10 tip? Or the cooks? Yes, perhaps they pool the tips with the back of house, but is that really the same? And in that case, doesn't it just dilute the supposed feedback mechanism if everyone in the restaurant pools the tip?

Many other countries get by just fine without tips by properly paying the staff in the restaurant, or with fixed gratuities.


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## Square Root

Bean- I totally agree. I also tip furniture delivery people. They are always so happy to see the extra money. Makes me feel good.


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## the-royal-mail

andrew makes a good point. All of us in some capacity are serving the needs of others. Do you tip your mailman when he drops off the mail? How about your landlord after he cleans the hallway? What about the bus driver and conductor on the train? At work when the IT folks set up your network logon do you head down to their office and leave a toonie on your desk?

Waitresses and servers work HARD, no doubt about it. But so do all the other service people in society. It does seem somewhat illogical that we only tip certain people and not others.


----------



## brad

andrewf said:


> Quite frankly, I don't think it's too much to ask for a restaurant to take care of their own payroll.


I think there's a chicken-and-egg problem here. Tipping is a longstanding tradition, so restaurants pay servers lower wages because they know the wait staff and bartenders will get tips. If a restaurant decides to pay their servers higher wages and abolish tipping, they'll have to raise their prices and drive their customers to the competition. So nobody wants to go first. All restaurants would have to coordinate to pay higher wages and abolish tipping if the system is to work. But that's called price fixing.

It's like outsourcing: people complain that Bell and Dell etc. outsource their customer support staff to India. So let's say they abolish that practice, use only Canadian customer support staff, and jack up everyone's phone bills by 20% to pay for the difference. If Bell does that but its competitors still outsource, do you think they'll stay in business for long?


----------



## m3s

Good point brad it would probably take a coordinated effort to completely abolish such a tradition. I really think are tips old fashion and we should get with the times. Things do change over the years and people do realize that just because "it's always been that way" doesn't mean it's right

I do think if some new chain restaurant were to openly refuse tips and make it part of the restaurant's style that people would be open to the idea and it would work


Shaw has Cdn CSRs and from my experience does a great job compared to the competition. I once called Telus X times trying to find a CSR who would hook up my net. I had to spell my name/address etc phonetically and for some reason they couldn't find my address even though my neighbor had Telus "Sorry your address doesn't work" I didn't have to spell anything for Shaw, they knew as any Canadian would what I was saying and had no issue finding an address that wasn't "in their system".

Maybe I'm alone on this but I will take my business to places that think outside the box


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## Larry6417

I worked in a restaurant as a dishwasher, and I cannot overemphasize how hard the job was and how low the pay was. The good part is that it motivated me to reach higher. Now that I'm doing well financially, I do tip well for good service, 20% +. That being said, I still believe that tipping should be a voluntary act of generosity, not an obligation to be demanded.

Zagat did a survey of its readers, and the #1 irritation was mandatory tipping. If I know that a restaurant does this, I generally avoid it. If I don't know beforehand, then I don't leave anything extra. I think tipping, for a wise restaurateur, is an excellent gauge of how customers perceive the restaurant. Better perception from happier customers generally leads to better tipping. Front-line staff know almost immediately what customers think of the restaurant.

If tipping were suddenly banned in restaurants, I think it's highly unlikely that restaurants would drastically increase wages. Restaurants (for the most part) are low margin, vulnerable businesses prone to failure. The people who work there don't have a lot of employment choices. I didn't have the job skills for much besides being a dishwasher because I was a student at the time. Many of the servers I knew were in the same position.


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## ghostryder

wheel said:


> Nobody makes you tip. But you and I both leave very distinct yet different impressions on wait staff. Besides, if there weren't non-tippers like yourself, maybe I wouldn't leave behind happy wait staff.
> 
> I will say though, that you speak somewhat harshly about the industry, and I can pretty much guarantee that you've never worked in it. For all the ideology, the waitress at your local restaurant is likely someone struggling to make ends meet and run off her feet for even that level of success. All the conversation in the world doesn't change that you and I both know before we set foot in the door that part of the bill is the tip - and in counterpoint to your point, maybe you shouldn't go out and eat if you're not prepared to pay people for their work. Because quite frankly, you're approach right now is forcing people to work on your behalf, for free. And I'm quite against that. You know they're working for tips, you take advantage of their work knowing full well the expectation is a tip, then choose not to pay them. That's not something I'd choose to do.



Considering the turnover in service staff there is no way that I am going to be remembered whether I leave a $100 tip or no tip at all. So the idea that by tipping well I am "buying" better service is a joke.

I have worked in the industry. In the back of the house. you know, the people who work just as hard as the service staff but only get paid a wage. Sure some restaraunts require servers to share tips, but we all know the servers "share" as little as possible. If you are lucky the management will actually follow up and check to see what servers got for tips via credit/interac and. But that is rare. In fact I have never worked in any place that actually did that. The cash tips go right in their pockets. 

And I am not forcing servers to work for free. They get at least the same minimum wage that everybody else does. So why do servers think that they deserve tips just for doing their job but the guy flipping burgers at McDicks or pumping gas or the cashier at the grocery store don't? Why is the "struggling waitress" supposed to get a tip but the struggling grocery store bagger or cashier not?

This isn't the US where the minimum wage for servers it (IIRC) <$3/hr.

I have no objection to tipping when service is truly exceptional. But if all I get is average service.....I've already paid for that. It's built into the price of my meal.

Now if servers banded together and demanded the government eliminate the minimum wage entirely for servers then they truly would be working for their tips. But we know servers aren't going to do that. You phrased it appropriately. Servers "expect" a tip. They expect a tip on top of their wage just for doing their job. I can count on one hand the times in the last 2 decades I have had a server actually earn a tip. And if they actually earned it, they got one.

My wife and I went to a nice dinner for her birthday recently. The server was attentive, guided and helped us choose our meals, I never had to ask for more water/bread, guided my wife through the dessert menu helping her choose something with consideration for her dietary limitations etc. Did he get a tip? Absolutely.

In contrast, we went for a family meal and the waitress barely said a word when taking our order, she brought our meals and our bill and that was all we saw of her. Did she get a tip? What do you think? LOL.


----------



## m3s

If you want no service go to fast food. If you want to be served on non stop go pay $$$ for a meal. If you want normal service...

Personally I don't even need to be served on non stop. This obviously requires more staff and can't just be expected everywhere.

I find it hard to believe that restaurants would struggle if they had to pay servers better wages to replace tips. Min wage has doubled in 10 years since I worked for it. There are lots of much harder thankless min wage jobs that never get tips.


----------



## kcowan

mode3sour said:


> Shaw has Cdn CSRs and from my experience does a great job compared to the competition. I once called Telus X times trying to find a CSR who would hook up my net. I had to spell my name/address etc phonetically and for some reason they couldn't find my address even though my neighbor had Telus "Sorry your address doesn't work" I didn't have to spell anything for Shaw, they knew as any Canadian would what I was saying and had no issue finding an address that wasn't "in their system".


One if the reasons stated by many Shaw Direct customers (Starchoice) for not switching to Expressvue is the superior customer service. Also the better picture quality on HD. Does Shaw management do this deliberately?


----------



## wheel

the-royal-mail said:


> andrew makes a good point. All of us in some capacity are serving the needs of others. Do you tip your mailman when he drops off the mail? How about your landlord after he cleans the hallway? What about the bus driver and conductor on the train? At work when the IT folks set up your network logon do you head down to their office and leave a toonie on your desk?
> 
> Waitresses and servers work HARD, no doubt about it. But so do all the other service people in society. It does seem somewhat illogical that we only tip certain people and not others.


Does your mailman make minimum wage? I think we already know what kind of service we get when we attempt to pay IT people minimum wage, don't we?

And as a matter of fact, I do tip my mailman at Christmas. And when we had a courier driver delivery for our business before we tipped him (well) at Christmas as well. The dude rearranged his route so he could pick our stuff up later, allowing us to send out more stuff same day and helping our business. People would order at 4:30 and have their goods the next day at 8:30, I got comments, I looked like a hero. Thank you, tipping.

Tipping's voluntary. But it's not just an indication of service. It's also a personal statement.


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## m3s

Oh yea I _tip_ the cops at Christmas. This way they look the other way when they see my car 

I hate when businesses treat others with preferential treatment


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## Jungle

My dad and co-worker invite the mailman in for coffee on a cold day or beer on a hot day. Would that be tipping? Or just being nice and friendly? Personally, I would rather offer the mailman a coffee, then give them money to do their job.


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## slacker

A fine line between bribery and tipping.


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## Riff Raff

ghostryder said:


> And I have never met a server who ever declared any of their tips on their income tax return.


my best bud declares about $1500 a year of his tips - which exceed $30,000 annually. peanuts.

my tipping rules:

food/service = poor/below avg = no tip
food/service = adequate/nothing special = 10%
food/service = good = 15%
food/service = extraordinary = 20%

pay for performance.


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## m3s

slacker said:


> A fine line between bribery and tipping.


Why should I have to wait longer for a table at a restaurant, or pay more for drinks because the bartenders gives away free drinks, or be neglected for any service just because I don't tip the same employee on a regular basis?

If employees are giving you something in return behind their bosses back it's a bribe in my opinion. It raises the price and/or inconveniences other customers and undermines management.

By the sounds of how most people tip - the managers should be the ones being bribed or penalized for their poor performance.


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## lister

I usually tip 15% before tax with some variations. Bad service may result in a lower tip if it's quite clearly a server issue. At restaurants and bars I frequent or plan to frequent I tip 20% or more. 99.99% of the time I always get excellent service due to that. At bars or restaurants I hate sitting there looking at an empty glass be it beer, wine, cocktails, etc. Good staff will ask me what I want next before the glass is empty so when the new drink arrives the old one is done. That is my number one service peeve. I don't care if the server is friendly, chatty, quiet, unfriendly. I just don't want any wait time between drinks. At my usual watering holes and restaurants we are known by name and get great service.

I do not tip on takeout or at coffee places where you're not served at your table. I do not tip non-food delivery people but I will offer beverages and/or food if it's a moving company. I will tip the food delivery guy 10-15% depending on what cash I have on me. I tip my barber 10-15% again depending on what cash I have on me.

When I'm in other countries I usually follow local customs on tipping. If tipping isn't the norm then I usually won't do it to avoid any offense. However on some occasions at bars abroad I will tip right from the start to get the attention of the wait staff and ensure speedy service unlike what they normally do. I've had some annoying experiences in Taiwan and Tokyo with this.

Being in IT I wouldn't mind some tips. Maybe get quicker service in some regards.


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## bean438

andrewf said:


> That doesn't make any sense. The cheapskates aren't paying the premium one way or another, so why would they cause the business to close? Besides, isn't this a case of 'good riddance'? If people don't tip the servers, the restaurant would need to pay their staff well.


Ok , if restaurant A raises prices alot to give wages comparable to all other restaurants and all others had lower prices, all the cheapies would stop going to the now more expensive restaurant.

It just wouldnt work. The cheapies would go were the eating is cheap, and so they can ride on the coat tails of the good tippers.


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## bean438

ghostryder said:


> Considering the turnover in service staff there is no way that I am going to be remembered whether I leave a $100 tip or no tip at all. So the idea that by tipping well I am "buying" better service is a joke.
> 
> I have worked in the industry. In the back of the house. you know, the people who work just as hard as the service staff but only get paid a wage. Sure some restaraunts require servers to share tips, but we all know the servers "share" as little as possible. If you are lucky the management will actually follow up and check to see what servers got for tips via credit/interac and. But that is rare. In fact I have never worked in any place that actually did that. The cash tips go right in their pockets.
> 
> And I am not forcing servers to work for free. They get at least the same minimum wage that everybody else does. So why do servers think that they deserve tips just for doing their job but the guy flipping burgers at McDicks or pumping gas or the cashier at the grocery store don't? Why is the "struggling waitress" supposed to get a tip but the struggling grocery store bagger or cashier not?
> 
> This isn't the US where the minimum wage for servers it (IIRC) <$3/hr.
> 
> I have no objection to tipping when service is truly exceptional. But if all I get is average service.....I've already paid for that. It's built into the price of my meal.
> 
> Now if servers banded together and demanded the government eliminate the minimum wage entirely for servers then they truly would be working for their tips. But we know servers aren't going to do that. You phrased it appropriately. Servers "expect" a tip. They expect a tip on top of their wage just for doing their job. I can count on one hand the times in the last 2 decades I have had a server actually earn a tip. And if they actually earned it, they got one.
> 
> My wife and I went to a nice dinner for her birthday recently. The server was attentive, guided and helped us choose our meals, I never had to ask for more water/bread, guided my wife through the dessert menu helping her choose something with consideration for her dietary limitations etc. Did he get a tip? Absolutely.
> 
> In contrast, we went for a family meal and the waitress barely said a word when taking our order, she brought our meals and our bill and that was all we saw of her. Did she get a tip? What do you think? LOL.



The idea of "buying" better service is no joke. Try it and you will see.

Look after people and they will look after you


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## hystat

Jungle said:


> I would rather offer the mailman a coffee, then give them money to do their job.


i'd like to tip my mailman a pair of reading glasses 

tips are like bonuses, after a while a lot of people just expect them and disconnect them with performance


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## carllecat

I like to give good tips, but the problem is that when waitress see us coming (me, wife, 3 and 1.5 year old kids) they all seem to think they we are hobos or something, because more than often they do not seem to value or business. 

I go to the restaurant because I want to get out of the routine and relax and very often it is not the case. The moment I get a "how's your meal" or "may I get you a refill," then I know this is going to be a good experience. 

Never judge a book by it's cover!?! Good service means a great tip, bad service means no tip and the restaurant don't get my business anymore!

When I was younger, there always was that 2 for 1 special on the beer bottles in that bar close to my place. That is funny because the price would be $3.75 and the waiter was expecting to get more tip because it was a 2 for 1, however the price was the same... I left a 0.75$ tip for the 2 bottles; he looked at me and gave me some attitude and bad service for months afterward...!


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## ghostryder

bean438 said:


> The idea of "buying" better service is no joke. Try it and you will see.
> 
> Look after people and they will look after you



Did you completely miss the first thing I said? For this principle to work the server would have to actually still be working at the restaraunt the next time I come in AND be able to remember me.


I have yet to even see the same server twice. 


So how much do you tip:

The sales guy at future shop
the cashier at the grocery store
the stock boy at the grocery store
the kid flipping your burger at McD's
The bus driver
the sales clerk at a clothing store
the nurse taking care of you in the hospital
your doctor
the guy who cooked your pizza ('cause you know the delivery driver ain't sharing)
the cashier at the gas station
the 10 year old who delivers 8 lbs of flyers every week that I don't want
etc, etc, etc


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## m3s

ghostryder said:


> the 10 year old who delivers 8 lbs of flyers every week that I don't want


Ugh I even put up a no-flyer sticker. They go straight to my recycling bin

If you pay full price at Future Shop, you are effectively tipping the sales dude anyways


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## Four Pillars

mode3sour said:


> Ugh I even put up a no-flyer sticker. They go straight to my recycling bin
> 
> *If you pay full price at Future Shop, you are effectively tipping the sales dude anyways*


Really? Are you saying you should negotiate the price?


----------



## the-royal-mail

I think you are both missing the point that ghostryder is making.


----------



## brad

Yes, there are plenty of minimum wage workers in the service industry who don't get tips. And yes, our society is chock-full of inconsistencies.

But the fact is that it's a longstanding tradition in our culture to tip certain types of service workers (waiters, bartenders, etc.), and the people who work in those fields build their budgets around the expectation that some of their income will come from tips. It would be foolish to count on tips to help you meet your rent, but it would also be foolish to assume that you'll have no income at all from tips. Once you've worked in a place for a while you can get a rough sense of how much you typically make in tips each month, and you factor that into your finances.

Over the course of a year, income from tips might allow a waiter to pay for continuing education, buy a more reliable car, buy a winter coat, or save for retirement. That's part of what makes being a waiter or bartender a more attractive career to minimum-wage workers.


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## slacker

When restaurants raise their prices, I feel like tipping less.


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## m3s

Four Pillars said:


> Really? Are you saying you should negotiate the price?


Yes you can negotiate the price with commission salespeople..

Commissions are far worse than tips but that's a whole other topic


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## loggedout

I am a fairly generous tipper but only for places/personnel where I'll have repeat business (they've earned it).

That said, I think this cultural tradition sucks and should change. I was in South Korea for work, and in their culture tipping is not expected and may be considered rude (although the hotels have no problem charging a 10% gratuity on everything) and I really thought the service I got there was much better than I ever received in Canada.


----------



## bean438

ghostryder said:


> Did you completely miss the first thing I said? For this principle to work the server would have to actually still be working at the restaraunt the next time I come in AND be able to remember me.
> 
> 
> I have yet to even see the same server twice.
> 
> 
> So how much do you tip:
> 
> The sales guy at future shop
> the cashier at the grocery store
> the stock boy at the grocery store
> the kid flipping your burger at McD's
> The bus driver
> the sales clerk at a clothing store
> the nurse taking care of you in the hospital
> your doctor
> the guy who cooked your pizza ('cause you know the delivery driver ain't sharing)
> the cashier at the gas station
> the 10 year old who delivers 8 lbs of flyers every week that I don't want
> etc, etc, etc



I did not miss a thing. The chinese food delivery guy has been there at least 15 years.
Pizza guy about 5-6 years.
Some of the servers at a particular restaurant have been there 20+ years.

ALL of them know who i am, and will go out of their way, above and beyond to make sure i am looked after.


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## 412driver

the-royal-mail said:


> The worst is pizza delivery. In addition to pizza being quite expensive, many places now add a delivery charge of $2-4. Put tax on that and you're probably up to $25. After paying that much I'm usually not in much of a tipping mood. I of course do it anyway as I have a high appreciation for hard work.


Pizza guy shows up at the door of my million dollar house with a $25 pizza...he gets a $50 bill. I tell him how I hauled *** delivering pizzas 30 years ago (which I did) and that if he works hard he can make it too. I think they appreciate the pep talk and they tend to have a good memory as I never seem to wait that 45 min to an hour. 

People don't get it, tip before to guarantee the service. My wife and I take 2 other couples to say, a nice pasta joint. Hostess gets a $50 when we walk in with a subtle request for a nice table, here to have fun ect... Even better if the manager or owner is there. Give him the $50 and tell him to give it to the cooks to thank them in advance for a great meal....

You will never have a problem with service.....unless of course you are one of those dicks that is never happy and always complaining....but then again...you wouldn't have dropped the $50 to begin with... 

Service will always be great following those guidelines......


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## slacker

@412driver: very fine line between bribery and tipping. In any case, since I haven't "made it", and live in a moldy basement, I will continue to tip 10% before tax, and round down to the next dollar. I promise to tip better when I have more money.


----------



## 412driver

slacker said:


> @412driver: very fine line between bribery and tipping. In any case, since I haven't "made it", and live in a moldy basement, I will continue to tip 10% before tax, and round down to the next dollar. I promise to tip better when I have more money.


Well considering you call yourself "slacker", I'd say get used to the mold. You don't seem very motivated. Nobody...and I mean NOBODY is going to give you anything in this life. Yes, I have "made it" but that was thru (and continued) hard work and not by "slacking" around.


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## Andrej

I reluctantly tip. I don't agree with the sense of entitlement some people have in the service industry- when they do their job to a minimum and expect a 10% gratuity. I'd much rather have the establishment determine the quality of service by how much they compensate their employees. If I go to a restaurant, I want it to be a reflection of the owner, not the employees. I say abolish tipping and incorporate it into the bill which is then passed on to the employees as higher wages. At the very least, we should revert back to tipping for above and beyond service. 
I tip 0-10% for service. I tip 10-20% for great service. I've even gone as high as 100% on small bills with above and beyond service.


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## peterk

I don't really tip based on a percentage. I don't see how the server at the Keg or Milestones has done anything to deserve more than the server at East Side Marios or Pizza Hut.
I'll typically give $0-5 for bad service, 5-10 for good work and 10+ for being fantastic, per person.
I've tipped as low as $5 for a hundred dollar meal and as high as $20 for a $25 meal.


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## Scottlandlord

Very interesting post. I still tip 20% if the service is good at restaurants.


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## kcowan

peterk said:


> I don't really tip based on a percentage. I don't see how the server at the Keg or Milestones has done anything to deserve more than the server at East Side Marios or Pizza Hut.
> I'll typically give $0-5 for bad service, 5-10 for good work and 10+ for being fantastic, per person.
> I've tipped as low as $5 for a hundred dollar meal and as high as $20 for a $25 meal.


This is especially true when a bottle of wine is included. $50 for the bottle and $5 to open it. How can a server earn $10 to open it?


----------



## Jayde

I tip 10% *at the most* and for a couple of reasons:

First - I am on a very strict budget and the extra 5-10% can quite easily mean the difference between eating at the Keg or eating at Cin-Cins. I would prefer to spend that extra money on the food, not the service.

Second - I've worked in the industry and my brother still works in the industry. I know how it works. My brother makes about $25K per year on wage if he's lucky. He claims maybe $5-10K in tips each year. He earns well over $100K per year. The servers will all decide amongst themselves how much of their tips they're going to claim on income tax each year. As long as they're all about the same, CRA will rarely look closer.

Third - restaurant owners will regularly "purge" their experienced staff. Once a server has worked somewhere long enough to finally get a raise off minimum wage, they will usually have their hours cut or they will be "laid off" for some mysterious reason or another. There is no incentive for the restaurant to pay their staff well because they know that their customers will do it for them.

Fourth - restaurant staff are already being paid to do their job. It's not my reponsibility to make up the difference if their boss doesn't pay them well. 

The only other people I ever tip are cabbies and movers and even then only if they earn it.


----------



## wheel

kcowan said:


> This is especially true when a bottle of wine is included. $50 for the bottle and $5 to open it. How can a server earn $10 to open it?


No idea. It's a lot easier if you don't drink at restaurants .

The difference in price between 4 people at a restuarant who drink vs the same meals with no alcohol is enormous. 

In fact, my wife doesn't drink at all, so I don't drink either when we go out. Two nice meals and a shared desert at a nice restaurant with water can be surprisingly inexpensive. Without the alcohol, it can be cheaper than going to the movies and getting pop and popcorn.


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## m3s

I'm not sure it's the norm elsewhere.. but in Quebec you can byob to certain restaurants. And the booze is very cheap compared to other provinces to start


----------



## KaeJS

I'm going to sound very rude here, so be warned.

I have worked way too long in the restaurant industry to know that servers get paid wayyyyyy too much.

I don't tip. And, I don't have a problem with it. 

Why?

Because a female high school drop out with half-showing breasts can easily make over $300/night in TIPS ALONE, TAX FREE.

The reality is that there are lots of dogs that go to bars/restaurants and because of this, these women make a fortune. Their job is not hard, their taxes are low, and some of them make over $60,000/year on less than 40 hours/week.

If its a male server, I may tip due to the fact that a man won't usually tip a man as graciously, thus, he will not make the same as a female.

This isn't just me talking. This is human nature. This is the way things go for the most part. I have seen waitresses walk home with over $500 Cash on a St. Patricks Day, + their hourly wage. It's sickening.

If a waitress serves 3 tables per hour (which is quite standard) could be more, could be less, and each table tips $7.00, that would be:

7x3 = 21 + 9 (hourly wage) is $30/hour. 21 of which is tax free.

And how many people tip more than 7? Lots.

15% of a $47 Bill is $7.05.

And for those of you that don't know this trick, usually whatever you make per hour multiplied by two is what you would make in a year.

In this case, $30/hour. 30x2 = $60,000/year.

So, for someone like me that only makes about $14/hour. Why would I tip?

Especially since almost every server I've worked with has to bad mouth their tables to their co-workers, or they complain about "only getting $20 on a $200 bill".

Is it fair? No. But, that's the reality of life sometimes. 
If I want to keep my money and not tip, well... "Life's not fair." 

Also, I agree with everything GhostRyder has said in this thread.


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## andrewf

This thread is really interesting/surprising. It appears that opinions range from no tips ever to suggestions that one should walk around the restaurant handing out $50 bills. In the latter case, I doubt I'd ever go to a restaurant if meals cost me several hundred dollars.


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## Kirkland

Hey,

Being form the UK where tipping is not customary and only ever done to reward service I can understand both sides of the arguement.

I understand the want to tip all of the time as it does reward service but I also believe that it should not be expected, they get paid to do there job and a tip should be a "surprise" for the good service they provide.

I am moving to Canada at the end of November and I'm going to tip exactly how I would in the UK and not succumb to local pressures and expectations. If I eat out and the service is fantastic, I will tip to reflect that. If I eat out and the service is average and below, they won't get a tip.

The only reason to tip is to reward someone for a good service, if you do not get a good service why should you reward them?

P.S. I've worked in a resteraunt as a Chef in the UK and never heard any people bad mouthing about how much in tips they get, they are generally happy if they get anything at all because it isnt expected, which I think is exactly how it should be.


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## the-royal-mail

This is in response to Kae. I understand what you are saying. However, let me play devil's advocate here. If the hot servers you describe are making those sorts of tips it is because they are working HARD and providing excellent, courteous service. Let's face it, a lot of those waitresses are masters at what they do. Men have a harder time but I've seen a few cracker jacks among waitors too. I have no problem rewarding what I deem as good or excellent performance based on hard work.


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## Four Pillars

the-royal-mail said:


> This is in response to Kae. I understand what you are saying. However, let me play devil's advocate here. If the hot servers you describe are making those sorts of tips it is because they are working HARD and providing excellent, courteous service. Let's face it, a lot of those waitresses are masters at what they do. Men have a harder time but I've seen a few cracker jacks among waitors too. I have no problem rewarding what I deem as good or excellent performance based on hard work.


I have to be honest - what exactly is so hard about serving people? Why is it harder than any other kind of pseudo-manual labour such as cutting lawns?


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## the-royal-mail

Cutting lawns is a very straightforward thing to do. Serving people food is not. I've observed carefully what sets good waitors apart from the rest. Here are some of those obs:

1. they must remember what each person at the table ordered
2. they have to keep track of drink orders and separate tabs in many cases
3. oohp, one guy is asking for ketchup
4. ohp, another one says their steak isn't cooked right
5. add to this all the debit and payment problems
6. orders must be delivered in a timely manner, otherwise customers get impatient
7. drink refills
8. check in on you and remember that one wants cream for his coffee and the woman at table 6 is diabetic or has allergies and is asking for various substitutions
9. family comes in with a wheelchair and requires special accomodation, moving tables etc
10. family comes in with a baby and requires special accomodation, moving tables etc
11. food must be delivered all at the same time for the tables
12. groups of people at tables can get noisy, esp when alcohol is involved
13. add-in the odd complaint if you should slip up on ANY of these things
14. do all of this while looking good, smiling, good attitude at all times, responsive, sharp, quick

That's just a few things. I personally think they work very hard. I could never do what they do. Stay in school, kids.


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## wheel

Four Pillars said:


> I have to be honest - what exactly is so hard about serving people? Why is it harder than any other kind of pseudo-manual labour such as cutting lawns?


High stress, high pressure, physically demanding. You're on your feet walking briskly for your entire shift. Wait staff come home wiped out after a shift, it's extremely exhausting work. Wait staff don't get a lot of sitting around time, or even moving slow time.

And while you're being pummelled from all sides, you're expected to remain pleasant and cheery under stress so you can earn something in the way of tips. Try being exhausted, having someone keep demanding stuff from you and continue to smile. Not once, but it's your job every day.

Remembering orders isn't that difficult. Once you've worked as wait staff for a while your short term memory ramps up huge and it's easy to look across the floor and know what everyone has ordered. that's why a lot of times wait staff don't write down orders.

When I used to work in a bar as a waiter (I'm a big guy so I did triple duty, bartender, bouncer, and waiter) I didn't write anything down. Basically point at them (it was loud) and I knew what they wanted. Then I'd rejig in my head everyone's order from a table by table basis to a beer by beer basis, so you order 3 blue, 2 canadian, etc. Funnily enough, with practice that part of the job is the easiest. That's why orders don't get screwed up very often.


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## Four Pillars

None of the tasks listed here are difficult or require any kind of training/skill or education.

I'm not suggesting the job is easy, but I just don't get this idea that we should put servers on the same level as the 9/11 fire fighters.

If it's such a bad job, then why do people do it? Why is it always the default job of choice until someone gets a better job?

I've had jobs when I was younger that were far more demanding than any serving job and nobody gave me any tips. And you know what? I didn't complain about it - I just went and got a job that was better suited for me.

That's it - I've convinced myself to never tip again.


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## KaeJS

Kirkland said:


> P.S. I've worked in a resteraunt as a Chef in the UK and never heard any people bad mouthing about how much in tips they get, they are generally happy if they get anything at all because it isnt expected, which I think is exactly how it should be.


That's exactly why. People in the UK are more appreciative. Unlike most of the North American population (especially the young population) that is spoiled rotten. Most waitresses are also in their 20's. 

I wish I could move to the UK.


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## KaeJS

the-royal-mail said:


> This is in response to Kae. I understand what you are saying. However, let me play devil's advocate here. If the hot servers you describe are making those sorts of tips it is because they are working HARD and providing excellent, courteous service. Let's face it, a lot of those waitresses are masters at what they do. Men have a harder time but I've seen a few cracker jacks among waitors too. I have no problem rewarding what I deem as good or excellent performance based on hard work.


I disagree. 

Working in the hot kitchen running back and forth, under the stress of all the orders, running out of food, preparing food, washing dishes, etc. Is a much more difficult job. And they get paid less.


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## the-royal-mail

>None of the tasks listed here are difficult or require any kind of training/skill or education.

Perhaps no education but training and skill, yes. I think some of those servers have a real ability to be able to manage such pressure. I think there is skill involved, maybe not a hard techical skill but skill nevertheless.

>I'm not suggesting the job is easy, but I just don't get this idea that we should put servers on the same level as the 9/11 fire fighters.

I don't think anyone is suggesting they're to that level. I'm just saying if servers get lots of tips, they've earned them in most/all cases.

>If it's such a bad job, then why do people do it? Why is it always the default job of choice until someone gets a better job?

Because it is a high turnover, high demand AND thankless job/undertaking. A great deal of these servers are young women trying to better themselves in college or uni as well as single moms trying to work and bring in some money. If anything, the experience helps them persevere so they don't get stuck doing thankless, low-paying work for the rest of their lives.

>I've had jobs when I was younger that were far more demanding than any serving job and nobody gave me any tips. And you know what? I didn't complain about it - I just went and got a job that was better suited for me.

Exactly. I did the same thing. I've done a lot of hard work/tough jobs in my youth and those experiences assured me to stay in school, do well, get a diploma and get a GOOD job where I can enjoy stable hours and numerous other benefits. 

But still, I see your point about OTHER service/jobs not being tipped. Tipping servers for hard work is a great idea but I don't understand why the guy pumping gas, the POSTMAN, the girlie at subway, the bus driver, the city crew who repaved my street last week, the lady who answered the phone at the bank are any less deserving of tips. The obvious question is 'where does it end'. The lines are blurry here.

>That's it - I've convinced myself to never tip again.

I am sorry to hear that. I do understand how you feel but we'll have to agree to mostly disagree on this one. Good discussion though!


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## the-royal-mail

KaeJS said:


> Working in the hot kitchen running back and forth, under the stress of all the orders, running out of food, preparing food, washing dishes, etc. Is a much more difficult job. And they get paid less.


I agree with that! Or the people cleaning the french fry machines at fast food joints. Yep yep, all of these are very hard, dirty, thankless jobs. No disagreement there.

It has always been my general opinion that those who work the hardest in our society are paid the least. Ironic.


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## andrewf

wheel said:


> that's why a lot of times wait staff don't write down orders.


Pet peeve of mine. When the server refuses to write down the order and then screws it up--that is one of the few times I will tip very poorly. This is sheer pigheadedness. Doesn't the kitchen need some sort of record of what the order is, anyway?


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## KaeJS

andrewf said:


> Pet peeve of mine. When the server refuses to write down the order and then screws it up--that is one of the few times I will tip very poorly. This is sheer pigheadedness. Doesn't the kitchen need some sort of record of what the order is, anyway?


Whether or not the waitress writes down the order does not affect the kitchen. The kitchen will still receive an electronic order that the waitress must punch into a computer. The complications arise when the waitress forgets or gets mixed up because they didn't write it down.


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## Berubeland

You know who should get a tip? 

Your landlord staff 

We have to keep people happy 24 hours per day, 7 days per week, 365 days per year. 

Seriously if you think that keeping track of all the moving parts of a lunch and drink order is complicated try taking care of a building. Moving day with 30 people moving out and 30 people moving in, with the usual antiquated, finicky elevators, suites not completed to people's expectations, dogs having a poop in the stairwell, the complaints about other tenants et al. 

We'd like to make $60,000 bucks a year but we usually make around $30,000. 

So tip your super, and the lady who cleans the hall. Chances are she works for a subcontractor who hires illegal immigrants and pays like 3$ an hour. 

Your task for the day... while on your way in life...notice people who are going the extra mile...who don't get tips and tip them. 

For a while I had an idea that I would get smiley buttons  and just give them out to people who did an extra great job. Like one day I went to UPS to pick up a package and one guy who came to pick up his package didn't bring any ID and freaked the hell out at the counter staff. He screamed at that woman for so long the other customers were intervening on her behalf. One customer, finally threatened him and forced him to leave, the police were on their way. The lady he was intimidating was just slow and steady and went on serving other customers. She deserved a serious bonus of some kind for her exemplary behaviour under exceptional circumstances.


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## K-133

Poor job = 5-10% tip
Good job = 15% tip
Excellent job / food = 20% tip

Keep in mind, than usually, tips are split among all the staff - from kitchen to the manager. They all work hard, even when they do a poor job. Your tip goes a long way in the economic system - much further than the service you've received.

I am also compassionate to the causes of a poor job. Most often, it is poor management or an overburden.


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## Four Pillars

I don't have an opinion on how much servers should get paid. What I don't like is that the customers have to help determine how much they get paid.

I think that serving should be like most other jobs - the employer pays their salary/commissions/bonuses etc and that is that.

That would help determine the market value for their services.


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## K-133

Four Pillars said:


> I don't have an opinion on how much servers should get paid. What I don't like is that the customers have to help determine how much they get paid.
> 
> I think that serving should be like most other jobs - the employer pays their salary/commissions/bonuses etc and that is that.
> 
> That would help determine the market value for their services.


In Australia you don't tip because minimum wage is much higher than it is here. Serves well to your point.


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## Four Pillars

K-133 said:


> In Australia you don't tip because minimum wage is much higher than it is here. Serves well to your point.


The other great thing about Australia is that they include all the taxes in the menu price as well.

So if you order an entree that is $22, you will pay $22. 

I wouldn't mind doing that for all items - not just food.


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## wheel

Four Pillars said:


> I don't have an opinion on how much servers should get paid. What I don't like is that the customers have to help determine how much they get paid.


Idon't like that when I buy a car, my sales rep gets paid more or less depending on how well I negotiate. Like, I don't just like it, I hate the idea. Peeves me right off. 

That's life though . We tip our wait staff so they can earn enough to stay afloat, and we haggle with car dealers.

In the end though, ideology is one thing and practicality is another. Not tipping because you don't believe in tipping is taking out your ideology on someone who's working hard at a low paying job where it's implied that you're going to pay some of their wages. Doing so doesn't prove a point to anyone, it just screws over the wait staff.


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## Four Pillars

wheel said:


> Idon't like that when I buy a car, my sales rep gets paid more or less depending on how well I negotiate. Like, I don't just like it, I hate the idea. Peeves me right off.
> 
> That's life though . We tip our wait staff so they can earn enough to stay afloat, and we haggle with car dealers.
> 
> In the end though, ideology is one thing and practicality is another. Not tipping because you don't believe in tipping is taking out your ideology on someone who's working hard at a low paying job where it's implied that you're going to pay some of their wages. Doing so doesn't prove a point to anyone, it just screws over the wait staff.



I have no intention of not tipping. My point is that the owners should pay decent wages.


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## wheel

Four Pillars said:


> I have no intention of not tipping. My point is that the owners should pay decent wages.


Yes, I know it sounds like I'm calling folks out, I'm not. It's just that we can hope for that, but it ain't gonna happen. 

As conservative as I am, I believe business owners should pay a living wage. I don't think it should be legislated, but if you've got full time staff and they can't earn enough to live on, then it's just wrong. Wait staff is on the edge of that. 

Unfortunately a no tip restaurant in Canada just isn't going to fly. Really good staff can actually make a decent living waiting on tables and if you fix them at some set hourly rate the top notch wait staff won't work for you - they'll make more money down the street.


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## m3s

the-royal-mail said:


> Cutting lawns is a very straightforward thing to do. Serving people food is not. I've observed carefully what sets good waitors apart from the rest. Here are some of those obs:
> 
> 1. they must remember what each person at the table ordered
> 2. they have to keep track of drink orders and separate tabs in many cases
> 3. oohp, one guy is asking for ketchup
> 4. ohp, another one says their steak isn't cooked right
> 5. add to this all the debit and payment problems
> 6. orders must be delivered in a timely manner, otherwise customers get impatient
> 7. drink refills
> 8. check in on you and remember that one wants cream for his coffee and the woman at table 6 is diabetic or has allergies and is asking for various substitutions
> 9. family comes in with a wheelchair and requires special accomodation, moving tables etc
> 10. family comes in with a baby and requires special accomodation, moving tables etc
> 11. food must be delivered all at the same time for the tables
> 12. groups of people at tables can get noisy, esp when alcohol is involved
> 13. add-in the odd complaint if you should slip up on ANY of these things
> 14. do all of this while looking good, smiling, good attitude at all times, responsive, sharp, quick
> 
> That's just a few things. I personally think they work very hard. I could never do what they do. Stay in school, kids.


Yall should tip me for my services. I also have to multitask all day and memorize books of airspace rules and aircraft capabilities, deal with constant distractions and remain composed during hectic or chaotic situations. Except if I screw up you might have a jet crashing into an airliner over your house, let alone an overcooked steak. Sure I get paid for it but I also pay my taxes and did my time at school

Serving inside would have been a dream job compared to what I did for min wage outside in the weather, breathing dust and chemicals, constant noise etc. When your back is sore from manual labor you don't even feel your sore feet from standing all day

Anyways the servers deserve at least the standard tip because it is expected here and we all like servers who are easy on the eyes.


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## kcowan

KaeJS said:


> Whether or not the waitress writes down the order does not affect the kitchen. The kitchen will still receive an electronic order that the waitress must punch into a computer. The complications arise when the waitress forgets or gets mixed up because they didn't write it down.


In Europe, they have handheld PDAs that enter the orders immediately and the kitchen gets them when completed. No errors and gives the server more time to focus on service.


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## Spidey

I don't agree with not tipping because of the argument "Employers should pay their people more". This is the cultural system that we have and it's not like the servers have implemented this system so I don't see why they should be the ones penalized. Even most restaurateurs cannot take it upon themselves to single-handedly change the system, by paying higher wages, because they operate in a highly competitive industry. The only way the system can be viable changed would be a mandatory gratuity added to the bill. I think I would rather have a voluntary system where at least you can reduce the tip for extraordinarily poor service.

I do find however, that the expectation of tips has escalated since my days in college when I worked as a waiter and we were happy to get 10%.


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## KaeJS

kcowan said:


> In Europe, they have handheld PDAs that enter the orders immediately and the kitchen gets them when completed. No errors and gives the server more time to focus on service.


We have those here, too.

The generic name for it is called "Digital Dining".

But of course, that usually costs the owner more $$$ he/she is probably not willing to spend.


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## KaeJS

Just to add to my point,

My friend took me out for dinner last night.

The bill was $50.71 after tax, before tip.

After tip? $61.00

Thats a $10.29 tip, plus the waitresses hourly wage (which, at minimum, is $8.90)

Thats a total of $19.19. 

Oh, and did I mention we were only there for about 45 minutes, and I saw her serving 3 other tables?

And don't forget... $10.29 of that $19.19 is tax free...

Of course, it was my friends decision to leave that tip, BUT

I stand firmly on my opinion.

Edit*

By the way, the waitress did not do anything exceptional. She did not ask us how our day was. She did not say her name, nothing of the sort. Basically the only thing I ever heard her say was "Are you done with that? Would you like anything else? Is everything okay?"

Definitely not worth $10.29 for 45 minutes.

And I brought up this thread to my friend last night, also. She stated that the waitress is helping us, which is why she deserves a tip. I disagree. The waitress is not helping us. The waitress is doing her job. If I'm at the grocery store, and I'm buying 3 bags of milk for my family, when I get to the cashier and she tells me "Oh, did you know that you could save $2.00 per bag by buying ABC brand instead of XYZ brand for this week only".

THAT is helping me. SHE should receive a tip because she just saved me $6.00. She is looking out for me.

The waitress bringing me coffee isn't looking out for me, she's looking for a tip. The cashier isn't.


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## kcowan

KaeJS said:


> We have those here, too.
> 
> The generic name for it is called "Digital Dining".
> 
> But of course, that usually costs the owner more $$$ he/she is probably not willing to spend.


And in Europe, they almost all have tableside devices for authorizing chip-equipped credit and debit cards. But apropos of this topic, none of them allow a tip to be added. So you have to leave the tip in cash. I made sure I had many small bills so as not to ask for change.


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## heyjude

kcowan said:


> And in Europe, they almost all have tableside devices for authorizing chip-equipped credit and debit cards. But apropos of this topic, none of them allow a tip to be added. So you have to leave the tip in cash. I made sure I had many small bills so as not to ask for change.


That's increasingly common in Canada too. I suspect the use of technology is in response to consumer demand; many of us do not want to let credit cards out of our line of sight. The point of sale devices I have used offer a choice of tipping by amount, by percentage, or not at all. While my habit has been to tip by amount, I have found that tipping by percentage generates a larger tip than I have routinely given, but lower than I would have given for exceptional service. Of course, if the service has been rotten, I do not tip at all.


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## kcowan

heyjude said:


> I have found that tipping by percentage generates a larger tip than I have routinely given, but lower than I would have given for exceptional service. Of course, if the service has been rotten, I do not tip at all.


One of the terminal vendors enables the default to be 18% on top of the HST tax. Suffice to say that I am doing my own calculations now.


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## wheel

KaeJS said:


> Just to add to my point,
> 
> My friend took me out for dinner last night.
> 
> The bill was $50.71 after tax, before tip.
> 
> After tip? $61.00
> 
> Thats a $10.29 tip, plus the waitresses hourly wage (which, at minimum, is $8.90)
> 
> Thats a total of $19.19.
> 
> Oh, and did I mention we were only there for about 45 minutes, and I saw her serving 3 other tables?
> 
> And don't forget... $10.29 of that $19.19 is tax free...
> 
> Of course, it was my friends decision to leave that tip, BUT
> 
> I stand firmly on my opinion.
> 
> Edit*
> 
> By the way, the waitress did not do anything exceptional. She did not ask us how our day was. She did not say her name, nothing of the sort. Basically the only thing I ever heard her say was "Are you done with that? Would you like anything else? Is everything okay?"
> 
> Definitely not worth $10.29 for 45 minutes.
> 
> And I brought up this thread to my friend last night, also. She stated that the waitress is helping us, which is why she deserves a tip. I disagree. The waitress is not helping us. The waitress is doing her job. If I'm at the grocery store, and I'm buying 3 bags of milk for my family, when I get to the cashier and she tells me "Oh, did you know that you could save $2.00 per bag by buying ABC brand instead of XYZ brand for this week only".
> 
> THAT is helping me. SHE should receive a tip because she just saved me $6.00. She is looking out for me.
> 
> The waitress bringing me coffee isn't looking out for me, she's looking for a tip. The cashier isn't.


You spend an awful lot of time worrying about someone else's $10 and implying that someone's $19/hour income is somehow exhorbitant.

I took my son out to dinner yesterday. Up in cottage country, so the waitresses were run off their feet. Bill came to $40. I tipped $8. She brought me the wrong kind of soup (which I ate without complaint, not that big of a deal, it's just soup) and offered us bread but never brought it. 

But she smiled and thanked me when I paid. Pretty sure she'd had a crazy day with all the cottagers going home, half them being rude and not tipping. And a few bucks out of my pocket didn't break me.


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## the-royal-mail

wheel makes a good point about the poor waitresses that are run off their feet and overloaded with work due to staff shortages, the others called in sick etc. A friend once said that he always tipped them anyway, if it was clear that they were doing their best but didn't have enough help. He didn't feel it was right to shoot the messenger and I think I agree. She is in a no-win situation. No point in us making it worse.

It also helps *not* to go out to eat when there are lineups and waiting times to get in. If the place is too busy, go some other time when it's less busy. Chances are you'll get better service when they're not run off their feet.


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## Berubeland

When we go out with my son we always go early... by 5 o'clock (usual suppertime) we're seated in the restaurant. Even on Valentines day last year, the place was pretty empty

For me it means better service and my 2 year old is more patient because he's not starving.


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