# Is 80K at 28 years old a good salary?



## fromragstoriches

^ question above 

Feels like I always need more money and it is never enough. I work for the government so the pension contributions are quite high so I only take home about $1750 biweekly. 

Any responses are appreciated. Thanks everyone.


----------



## Ag Driver

I'm 28 and 80k has always been my benchmark. I think I was 24 when I first made 80k. I was quite happy and living a great life in the 80k mark. I took a recent substantial pay cut and 50k is doable but less then ideal. 80k makes me happy, and I don't "need" any more but it certainly helps with the end goal of working so you don't have to work any longer!


----------



## STech

How can anyone answer if a certain salary is good or not for you? It's all relative to where you live and your lifestyle. 

Some can live very well off 80K, and some will live paycheque to paycheque with it.


----------



## Pluto

When you consider that the median income for an individual is 32,790 as of a couple of years ago, you are doing good. 

The pension is saving for retirement so you can skip that project if you want.


----------



## hboy54

Hi:

About $5K more than my highest earning year ever, but I have not worked in 15 years. I only had three years over $50K IIRC.

I think $80K is slightly under average family in Canada, where of course the average family has closer to 2 than 1 person working. The average family age is going to be about 15 years older than you too.

So, yes I'd say given the evidence above, $80K at age 28 is doing quite well.

hboy54


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

It's not the size that counts, its how you use it - applicable to salary and other things as welI I imagine.


----------



## Emjay85

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> It's not the size that counts, its how you use it - applicable to salary and other things as welI I imagine.


Along the same line...its not what you make, its what you don't spend.

80k should be more than enough but it all depends on your needs. If you have 4 kids, maybe not.


----------



## CalgaryPotato

Don't lose sight over the benefits you have in your government job. A pension, health coverage, vacation time. $80K isn't a ton but it's still good money at your age and it's a trade off.

If you want the most money get out of government and go work for private industry, but the benefits and the stability won't be the same.


----------



## bds

fromragstoriches said:


> ...Feels like I always need more money and it is never enough...


You're spending too much and living beyond your mean. It's as simple as that.

I make about $5k less than you, same age, but I don't spend a lot on things that don't matter. I'm not trying to sound like I'm bragging, but I have been able to acquire two houses, more savings/investments than most people my age, take a couple vacations a year and am considering taking a year off of work to travel.

It's all in what you spend, what you make matters far, far less. I'd take what I have now over a 4k TV with all the channels and a new car any day.


----------



## bobsyouruncle

fromragstoriches said:


> I only take home about $1750 biweekly.


Hang on a minute!!

Your gross is $80k, but you only take home $45k??

Those are some serious deductions.


----------



## Beaver101

fromragstoriches said:


> ^ question above
> 
> Feels like I always need more money and it is never enough. I work for the government so the pension contributions are quite high so I only take home about $1750 biweekly.
> 
> Any responses are appreciated. Thanks everyone.


 ... compared to this poster, you make an obscene amount of money but then not sure what your position is. 

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/108554-Not-sure-which-financial-route-I-should-take

Hi,



> I'm going to be a 30 years old single guy next month.
> 
> ...
> 
> I make roughly 30k a year and I have 50k cash currently.


----------



## Mechanic

That is a pretty good salary in my book, especially for a single person. Of course, it all depends on how you utilize it. If you like to spend, spend, spend, have a very active social life etc. then of course it will never be enough. Government jobs typically pay above average salaries and typically come with excellent benefits and retirement packages. Not many people give them up to go the private sector from what I have seen.


----------



## Emjay85

bobsyouruncle said:


> Hang on a minute!!
> 
> Your gross is $80k, but you only take home $45k??
> 
> Those are some serious deductions.


It's amazing how little is left after taxes, pension contributions and, I'm assuming, union dues and other fees.


----------



## bobsyouruncle

Emjay85 said:


> It's amazing how little is left after taxes, pension contributions and, I'm assuming, union dues and other fees.


Everyone pays taxes and CPP, but that looks like the take home pay of someone on $60k, not $80k.


----------



## Emjay85

bobsyouruncle said:


> Everyone pays taxes and CPP, but that looks like the take home pay of someone on $60k, not $80k.


I bet the pension contribution is well over $300 bi-weekly.

Maybe he rounded up his salary


----------



## none

Considering the ever rising costs of cocaine and hookers I think 80K is pretty low....


----------



## OptsyEagle

He's probably overpaying CPP. His CPP payments will max out and stop before the year is out and therefore his take home pay will be larger.

In any event, most Canadians would kill for that salary, so if he can't live on it, then he has a problem that more income will most likely will not solve. It is some form of psychological problem. Either he is not very bright or he has some form of spending problem. If it makes him feel better, there are many like him. My main point is that he would be better off addressing that personal problem then trying to earn more income and hoping that it somehow improves things for him. I doubt it would.


----------



## CalgaryPotato

I make $108 and if based on my early year pay cheques would take home 62 (it works out to more than that over the year as I pay off EI & CPP) so about the same percentage working for the government. You wouldn't believe how high some of the pension percentages are as they try to catch up on decades of under funding.


----------



## DollaWine

Do you like to eat out constantly? Do you have a car payment? Do you have CC debt? Do you not watch your spending? Are you materialistic? Do you have a high-costing social life?

If yes to even half of those, then 80k isn't much. If no to most/all of those, you're doing great. (Same salary I make, I'm 24, and my answer to all those is no)

But damn, those deductions are INSANE with the gov't.


----------



## tavogl

My wife makes 75k a year, also government job, takes 45k home after deductions. This is in BC. taxes might be different where u are.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

It's better than a kick in the pants with a frozen mukluk as dear old Granny used to say.


----------



## gibor365

It's maybe OK for 28 years old, but in order to live normal modest life, family with 2 kids should have at least 200K household income. Taxes are insane here


----------



## Saniokca

gibor365 said:


> It's maybe OK for 28 years old, but in order to live normal modest life, family with 2 kids should have at least 200K household income. Taxes are insane here


Ok let's not push it  We have one kid and live on about 50-60k per year. And we're not exactly cutting corners - diapers are 50c each, wife bakes and cooks a lot with quality ingredients. She does pay attention to prices but only in terms of the timing of the purchase (e.g. we would buy a lot when something's on sale - usually non-perishables or stuff you can freeze). I do drive an old car (2005 corolla) but only because it's not something I care about at this point.

We did make over 200k gross before the baby came but with the vacations and everything we still spent under 50k.

I do agree that taxes are very high though.


----------



## tavogl

Two kids in vancouver, a mortgage, car, vacations, decent life? I agree, 200k$. Otherwise I don't know how much u'll be able to save for retirement.


----------



## Saniokca

tavogl said:


> Two kids in vancouver, a mortgage, car, vacations, decent life? I agree, 200k$. Otherwise I don't know how much u'll be able to save for retirement.


What you are describing is a luxurious life - live where you want, own a house and a car. Change the location or the ownership and you can be doing very well with making under 100k and still save for retirement.

People here need to read some Mr. Money Mustache...

P.S. Wife and I lived in downtown Vancouver (Seymour and Smite) in 2012-2014. One bedroom apartment was $1,570/m in 2014. I don't know how much exactly a 3-bedroom would cost but I'm guessing below 2,500/m.


----------



## My Own Advisor

tavogl said:


> My wife makes 75k a year, also government job, takes 45k home after deductions. This is in BC. taxes might be different where u are.


Not uncommon at all after taxes, pensions and other expenses. Anything in the $75k to $100k ranges is a good salary and provides good opportunities to save for your financial future, at least 10% net income.


----------



## bobsyouruncle

gibor365 said:


> It's maybe OK for 28 years old, but in order to live normal modest life, family with 2 kids should have at least 200K household income. Taxes are insane here


LOL!!!!

If this was true it would be the most depressing news for 99% of the population.


----------



## tavogl

edited


----------



## tavogl

Saniokca said:


> What you are describing is a luxurious life - live where you want, own a house and a car. Change the location or the ownership and you can be doing very well with making under 100k and still save for retirement.
> 
> People here need to read some Mr. Money Mustache...
> 
> P.S. Wife and I lived in downtown Vancouver (Seymour and Smite) in 2012-2014. One bedroom apartment was $1,570/m in 2014. I don't know how much exactly a 3-bedroom would cost but I'm guessing below 2,500/m.


Good luck finding those prices today. I rent in Coquitlam a basement suite for 1100 a month (plus all utilities)and it's SUPER CHEAP, we plan on keeping the place as long as we can, paying rent a week before it's due date, taking care of the place, not bothering the owners. . Downtown Vancouver where you described you'll be paying 2k rent for a 2 bedroom, all my friends who live downtown pay around 1600 - 1800 for a 1br.

And lets not even mention if you have pets or kids, almost impossible to find a place if you have both of those lol.

Btw, I am not saying we make 200k a year, because we don't.


----------



## DollaWine

gibor365 said:


> It's maybe OK for 28 years old, but in order to live normal modest life, family with 2 kids should have at least 200K household income. Taxes are insane here


Oh please... Cut it out...


----------



## gibor365

> Change the location or the ownership and you can be doing very well with making under 100k and still save for retirement.


 yeap,if you move your location to some small town in NB or NS I'd agree  ... in GTA household income under 100K gross, it's not living , but survival 
We are very frugal, we live in 1800 sq ft house in Mississauga for 18 years, didn't do any upgrades, our cars 12 and 10 years old, don't have mortgage , 2 kids (1 is part time kid , student, mostly live in Waterloo).... I always check prices before I buy anything... when we travel , we always do a lot of shopping and rent appartment with full kitchen in order not to spend too much on restaurans and so on... Here, in Canada we're going to restaurants maybe twice per year in the best case
Our combine spendings:
2013 - $107,007.37
2014 - $105,640.00
2015 - $88,519.28
2016 - $81,618.15
So, how much we need to have gross income and save for retirement?!


----------



## gibor365

bobsyouruncle said:


> LOL!!!!
> 
> If this was true it would be the most depressing news for 99% of the population.


First of all don't trust official stats regarding average household income.... there are tons of people working in construction, repair, auto maintenance etc industries who take cash and never report income.
Secondly, check how many Canadians have a debt !
1st google hit
*
Half of Canadians spending all or more of their paycheques*
https://www.thestar.com/business/20...iving-paycheque-to-paycheque-survey-says.html


----------



## tavogl

gibor365 said:


> Here, in Canada we're going to restaurants maybe twice per year in the best case


twice per year dining out? wow, when u say that do u mean expensive meals? or u include the 25$ bucks sushi dinner?


----------



## bobsyouruncle

gibor365 said:


> First of all don't trust official stats regarding average household income.... there are tons of people working in construction, repair, auto maintenance etc industries who take cash and never report income.
> Secondly, check how many Canadians have a debt !
> 1st google hit
> *
> Half of Canadians spending all or more of their paycheques*
> https://www.thestar.com/business/20...iving-paycheque-to-paycheque-survey-says.html


That just makes many Canadians very poor with money. It's quite possible to manage comfortably raising an entire family with $50k/year, providing you're not in downtown Vancouver or Toronto.


----------



## gibor365

tavogl said:


> twice per year dining out? wow, when u say that do u mean expensive meals? or u include the 25$ bucks sushi dinner?


I mean fine dining , not MCD or THI


----------



## tavogl

gibor365 said:


> I mean fine dining , not MCD or THI


Ah, that makes sense now lol.


----------



## gibor365

bobsyouruncle said:


> LOL!!!!
> 
> If this was true it would be the most depressing news for 99% of the population.


Don't talk before you check!
as per http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil106a-eng.htm 

officially, 14% of the families had income more than 200K and it was in 2014 , now 200K worth less than in 2014. (Median family income in 2014 was $86,410.). Again, those are official numbers (read my post above )


----------



## tavogl

Good info. While I agree you can survive with 50k a year (I did it with 16k a year as a student, no debt at the end). I Can't say it was anywhere near comfortable lol.


----------



## gibor365

My kids now 15 and 21, but when they were going to kindergarten long time ago, we paid more than 1,000 per month per each child, it was very average kindergarten, and we couldn't find cheaper.
Now, if your child doing ballroom dancing, figure skating (my daughter does it - so I know , AA or AAA hockey and so on, you will spend easily more than 10K per year... 
How can you do it if your family income less than 100K ?! (unless your kids just doing sport with PS4 ). Oh, year, you can get back from the government $75 annually LOL

P.S. My son (4th year student) got 2 co-op offers from 2 banks, $70K and $85K respectively. He needs to live in downtown as he will be working at trading floor and should be very early at work.... The best rent he can find, extremely small den without windows and closets for $1,200 per month  . Ridiculous!


----------



## tavogl

gibor365 said:


> My kids now 15 and 21, but when they were going to kindergarten long time ago, we paid more than 1,000 per month per each child, it was very average kindergarten, and we couldn't find cheaper.
> Now, if your child doing ballroom dancing, figure skating (my daughter does it - so I know , AA or AAA hockey and so on, you will spend easily more than 10K per year...
> How can you do it if your family income less than 100K ?! (unless your kids justdoing sport with PS4 )


What about daycare? Vancouver price is about 1300 a month, nothing fancy either.


----------



## gibor365

tavogl said:


> Good info. While I agree you can survive with 50k a year (I did it with 16k a year as a student, no debt at the end). I Can't say it was anywhere near comfortable lol.


Probably it was also in the different time and location . When we lived in USSR, our family survived with $1,800 annual income and we lived better than average 



> What about daycare? Vancouver price is about 1300 a month, nothing fancy either.


 Just my point about living under 100K for family! So, for 2 kids, daycare is about $31,200 per year! and somebody was telling that family can live on 50K


----------



## tavogl

gibor365 said:


> Probably it was also in the different time and location . When we lived in USSR, our family survived with $1,800 annual income and we lived better than average
> 
> Just my point about living under 100K for family! So, for 2 kids, daycare is about $31,200 per year! and somebody was telling that family can live on 50K


Yea I am with you on this.

When I said i survived with 16k a year while going to school, it was in 2010, here in Vancouver. I paid 800/month for a room and included all meals(homestay), 60/month bus pass, and I had no life after or before going to school, I literally could not afford to have friends, or buy frozen pizza more than once a month. Also I was single and 21 lol. 

That's why I understand when people say their family lives on 50k a year, is it possible? yes, is it comfortable? I doubt it.


----------



## bobsyouruncle

You need to keep one parent at home.

I look after a wife and two kids (homeschooling) on less than $60k/year, living in a major Canadian city, and I'm able to save and invest as well.

You're doing it wrong if you can't do it.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Its not how much you make but how much you save that counts. 

People have this misconception about salaries. They aim for a 'target' figure they deem high or above average. Truth is, 9-5 job, salary, benefits - regardless the income, they are all 'average'. Salary scales do not go from $30,000 to $30,000,000. Once you hit the $100k mark, you can't make that much more that will be significant and without altering your work/life balance. Again, if you don't save you're salary, there is no salary that will be good enough. 

My motto is 'make the most with what you have and you will prosper'


----------



## TheWealthyGardener

Saniokca said:


> What you are describing is a luxurious life - live where you want, own a house and a car. Change the location or the ownership and you can be doing very well with making under 100k and still save for retirement.
> 
> *People here need to read some Mr. Money Mustache...*



This is exactly what I was thinking... 

I have lived just fine off $30K - $40K here in Calgary ($70k starting monday! so I've been focusing on MMM now more than ever.)

I find what helped me save the most money was food. I used to spend up to 1200/m on food for just myself, thats cause I hated doing the dishes and would eat every meal out. It took some will power but I've done well to break that habit and get my food down to $100 a week, and there's still plenty of room to go down from there (goal is 50$ a week)

My Girlfriend is a foodie though, so occasionally I have to fork out some real money on a meal, but honestly she'll pay more often then me because she knows I wouldn't be sitting at a restaurant like that if it wasn't for her haha.

Its important everyone look at their day to day spending and see where your money is really going.


----------



## OptsyEagle

TheWealthyGardener said:


> My Girlfriend is a foodie though, so occasionally I have to fork out some real money on a meal, but honestly she'll pay more often then me because she knows I wouldn't be sitting at a restaurant like that if it wasn't for her haha.


Perhaps you should think about moving your "going out for dinner" item from your food budget to your entertainment budget. At some point in time you just have to take the girl out ... or I will. 
Just kidding. lol.


----------



## Saniokca

tavogl said:


> Downtown Vancouver where you described you'll be paying 2k rent for a 2 bedroom, all my friends who live downtown pay around 1600 - 1800 for a 1br.


This is consistent with what I said... If I had to guess a 3-bedroom would be below 2.5k?

2k for 2 bedroom is 24k/year. You don't need to make 200k to afford that 

But my point is that living in Vancouver/Toronto is becoming (or already is) a luxury. It's not a good thing long term but seems to be where it's going. Driving a corolla is not as nice as driving a bmw and yet it makes my life more than "decent" - I have a car!

P.S. True about pets - we had a pet and it was harder to find a place.


----------



## Saniokca

gibor365 said:


> yeap,if you move your location to some small town in NB or NS I'd agree  ... in GTA household income under 100K gross, it's not living , but survival
> We are very frugal, we live in 1800 sq ft house in Mississauga for 18 years, didn't do any upgrades, our cars 12 and 10 years old, don't have mortgage , 2 kids (1 is part time kid , student, mostly live in Waterloo).... I always check prices before I buy anything... when we travel , we always do a lot of shopping and rent appartment with full kitchen in order not to spend too much on restaurans and so on... Here, in Canada we're going to restaurants maybe twice per year in the best case
> Our combine spendings:
> 2013 - $107,007.37
> 2014 - $105,640.00
> 2015 - $88,519.28
> 2016 - $81,618.15
> So, how much we need to have gross income and save for retirement?!


A house, 2 cars, travel - frugal is very relative but I see that each year you are getting closer to it . Out of curiosity - would you mind sharing a breakdown of your expenses?

Also when did your mortgage drop off? Spending 107k (or even 80k) if you don't have a mortgage is quite a bit!


----------



## Saniokca

gibor365 said:


> I mean fine dining , not MCD or THI


It's funny how many people who are interested in finance use the stock symbols to describe companies when they write. "want to go to SBUX/THI?"


----------



## Saniokca

tavogl said:


> That's why I understand when people say their family lives on 50k a year, is it possible? yes, is it comfortable? I doubt it.


I just told you it is very comfortable - we now spend 60k and live like kings  Like I said - read some MMM and see how easy it is to cut your budget without cutting lifestyle.

Mind you we don't have daycare expenses because my wife stays at home. But if a couple doesn't make much money they should not be living in high cost areas...


----------



## My Own Advisor

If you can keep your housing costs and transportation costs modest to low, those are the keys to living on less and having a high savings rate.


----------



## TheWealthyGardener

OptsyEagle said:


> Perhaps you should think about moving your "going out for dinner" item from your food budget to your entertainment budget. At some point in time you just have to take the girl out ... or I will.
> Just kidding. lol.


haha you're more than welcome to, if you don't mind spending 200$ on sushi that is. I hate seafood, so I really do do it for her lol


----------



## OptsyEagle

Sushi...that could be a deal breaker.


----------



## gibor365

Saniokca said:


> A house, 2 cars, travel - frugal is very relative but I see that each year you are getting closer to it . Out of curiosity - would you mind sharing a breakdown of your expenses?
> 
> Also when did your mortgage drop off? Spending 107k (or even 80k) if you don't have a mortgage is quite a bit!


Actually yes, "house" is a frugal thing! We bought in 2000 for 232K, finished mortgage (had it variable and every available cent spent to finish it) in 6 years. Imagine now, how much we'd pay for 17 years rent!
I started to do breakdown only starting this year.... for previous years , I have only total monthly breakdown.
IMO, we spent less now that 3-4 years ago because our older son moved out , as he studies in university in different city... every 3 semester he has co-op and partially pays for his own expenses. Also, we don't contribute to his RESP and he's going with us less then every 2nd trip, and he stopped playing hockey , so it's cheaper for us 
Big spendings in out budget is figure skating (my daughter and wife (up to last year when he got injury)), it's extremely expensive, more than 10K per year.
Presto (public transportation) more than 4K per year. Travel 10-15K per year.
Utilities, property tax and insurance 14-16K per year.

P.S. I agree that it's possible for a family with 2 kids to live (or survive) with household income under 70K(just drop travel abroad and sport activities) , but it will be not very comfortable life


----------



## gibor365

bobsyouruncle said:


> You need to keep one parent at home.
> 
> I look after a wife and two kids (homeschooling) on less than $60k/year, living in a major Canadian city, and I'm able to save and invest as well.
> 
> You're doing it wrong if you can't do it.


It's funny! So OP needs to find a spouse that will be ready to sacrifice his/her life and sit home with kids?! And what if OP would like to marry ... a student?! Just a pass?!


----------



## Mukhang pera

STech said:


> How can anyone answer if a certain salary is good or not for you? It's all relative to where you live and your lifestyle.
> 
> Some can live very well off 80K, and some will live paycheque to paycheque with it.


This is the best answer so far. Kinda' silly to ask an anonymous group, who know nothing about you, if your salary is "good". It's good if you see it as such.

There are some who would see a salary (or annual income) of $80,000/yr. as penurious. Donald Trump probably cannot gas up his aircraft for such a pittance. 

But then, on the other hand:



OptsyEagle said:


> In any event, most Canadians would kill for that salary, so if he can't live on it, then he has a problem that more income will most likely will not solve.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

gibor365 said:


> It's funny! So OP needs to find a spouse that will be ready to sacrifice his/her life and sit home with kids?...


I think BYU was meaning that if you are spending $31.2k/yr on childcare for 2 kids as you suggested, then you need to do the math, consider some of the intangibles and decide whether it is really worth having both parents out working. 

Society seems to promote the desirability and necessity of both parents working now and I sometimes wonder if they are actually coming out ahead. Not just financially, but in terms of raising the children also. We struggle to find reliable child care at minimum cost. Now we are being told the government should be raising our kids soon after they are born, or at least paying for it. 

They hit school age before you know it (age 5 in some provinces) and then your flexibility to have two working parents returns. After that we are able to rely on the teachers (that we like to crap on) to be our babysitters.

Of course if a person really believes that they are sacrificing their life, and are going to be stuck uselessly sitting at home with the kids, then they probably should consider not having kids in the first place. You don't necessarily need to have them just to add to the house, car and requisite family dog collection.


----------



## bobsyouruncle

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> I think BYU was meaning that if you are spending $31.2k/yr on childcare for 2 kids as you suggested, then you need to do the math, consider some of the intangibles and decide whether it is really worth having both parents out working.
> 
> Society seems to promote the desirability and necessity of both parents working now and I sometimes wonder if they are actually coming out ahead. Not just financially, but in terms of raising the children also. We struggle to find reliable child care at minimum cost. Now we are being told the government should be raising our kids soon after they are born, or at least paying for it.
> 
> They hit school age before you know it (age 5 in some provinces) and then your flexibility to have two working parents returns. After that we are able to rely on the teachers (that we like to crap on) to be our babysitters.
> 
> Of course if a person really believes that they are sacrificing their life, and are going to be stuck uselessly sitting at home with the kids, then they probably should consider not having kids in the first place. You don't necessarily need to have them just to add to the house, car and requisite family dog collection.


Precisely. It's not about enslaving one parent to the house and kids. If that's what you think, you're probably better off not having them.

Let's say you have two kids and your wife earns $70k gross. She takes home about $55k, and childcare is $30k. You're working for $25k/year. 

When you take into consideration the expense of a daily commute, why bother? Add in how you may qualify for government child benefit of potentially $10k/year (depending on husband's income), your wife could be working so the family is basically $10k/year better off. 

Is that worth it? How much do you have to love your career and/or hate your kids to work full time for $10k/year?


----------



## Saniokca

bobsyouruncle said:


> Precisely. It's not about enslaving one parent to the house and kids. If that's what you think, you're probably better off not having them.
> 
> Let's say you have two kids and your wife earns $70k gross. She takes home about $55k, and childcare is $30k. You're working for $25k/year.
> 
> When you take into consideration the expense of a daily commute, why bother? Add in how you may qualify for government child benefit of potentially $10k/year (depending on husband's income), your wife could be working so the family is basically $10k/year better off.
> 
> Is that worth it? How much do you have to love your career and/or hate your kids to work full time for $10k/year?


I have to agree with you and OnlyMyOpinion. For people with lower incomes it makes little sense for one of the spouses to keep working - very often they end up working for less than minimum wage. For people with higher incomes it makes even less sense because they should be able to afford to keep one parent at home at least until the kid goes to school. No one cares about your child as much as you.


P.S. My wife was making 120k+ and still wanted to stay at home with our baby. Because we spend so little compared to our income we not only can afford living on my income alone but save on top of that.


----------



## lonewolf :)

80K is a good salary if not happy with it. It is not from a lack of money it is from a lack of creative thinking of how to enjoy life @ that income level


----------

