# Furnace maintenance plans



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Purpose: This thread explores the options of frugality from the aspect of whether a furnace maintenance plan is worthwhile or not.

Ok..the hoopla of the holidays is over. Now we are settled into the coldest part of the year, when we have to depend on our 
"Ole reliable" furnaces for warmth and comfort and keep from freezing our little tushes off. 

I have a 20 year old med efficiency gas furnace that came with the house when I bought it in 1996. It was installed in 1994.

I don't believe in extended warranties nor these yearly maintenance plans where you pay out $200+hst and all they do is
come around once a year to clean the filter. I can do that myself once a month thank you.

Now gas furnaces are pretty reliable..unless you get a lemon..and there are some manufacturers that have produced these
models, where the furnace tech has to come around more often than not. For the most part the gas furnace consists of
6 major components.
1, Burner/heat exchanger
2. Induced draft motor if it's not a full condensing unit
3. The control board that controls the ignitor and the gas valve and the burn cycle
4. The gas valve (very reliable)
5. Flame propagation and thermal limit sensors
6. Blower motor/blower fan and the blower relay on the circuit board

and Ancillary functions such as the 24volt transformer that provides power to the thermostats (usually digital) 

Gas furnaces are very reliable but do fail from time to time.
One of the common failure modes is the ignitor burning out. The ignitor is a 120v device that lights the gas coming
out of the gas burner manifold. If the circuit board does not detect flame propogation (through a sensor in
the gas manifold), the circuit board shuts down further gas flow and keeps the venting motor running to purge
the unburned nat gas out the chimney.

When that cycle is finished the furnance shuts down until a timer delay activates to start the burn cycle over
again and again. This is the symptom I had on January 2013 on a Sunday morning. 

I went down and found the problem very quickly, but with no spare ignitor, I had to place a very expensive emergency
service call $88 for the part and $150 for the labour/travelling time to replace it which took about 10 minutes.

That is the first failure in 18 years..not bad. This year I have a spare ignitor near my furnace. These things run
off 120volts and can burn out from time to time like a light bulb.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

It gets a bit more complicated for high efficiency but not that much more depending on what you're checking. Basic cleaning is the same, filter change, main fan squirrel cage and burner tubes are all that really needs to be cleaned, things are packed in there pretty good though so watch out during reassembly. They also test the operation of the electronics, not sure if this is needed if it's operating correctly. I got a few cleanings thrown in with the new furnace so I see exactly what they do and if you're not comfortable with doing it yourself I'd recommend getting it done every few years depending on how dirty things get in your home. BTW, some places run specials in the off season (late summer) on cleaning so watch for those if you need to get it done.

Another thing to do, either yourself or when you get a new furnace installed, is to seal up the main fan area so unfiltered air doesn't get sucked in. Also watch for leaks around the filter, I seal my filter opening up with tape. Doing these things will keep you squirrel cage very clean.

Having a spare ignitor is a good idea and on the newer HE furnaces I've seen they are easy to replace. My previous furnace lasted 50 years with minimal trouble, only issue was with the pilot light going out a few times.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> and if you're not comfortable with doing it yourself I'd recommend getting it done every few years depending on how dirty things get in your home. BTW, some places run specials in the off season (late summer) on cleaning so watch for those if you need to get it done.


After mine failed, I did subscribe to a maintenance plan for one year..what a waste of money. They came in and shoved a vacumn around for about 3 minutes and cleaned the filter...big waste of money, if there is nothing else to repair. I cancelled it last year. It's similar to HWT rental..I bought my own and don't pay rental..tank is now 15 years old no problems. 



> Another thing to do, either yourself or when you get a new furnace installed, is to seal up the main fan area so unfiltered air doesn't get sucked in. Also watch for leaks around the filter, I seal my filter opening up with tape. Doing these things will keep you squirrel cage very clean.


yes, i do that to. I had the squirrel cage rinsed out and cleaned when I changed the blower motor to a more efficient ECM motor. I also get the ducts vacumned out every 2 years..that keeps a lot of the dust down as well.



> Having a spare ignitor is a good idea and on the newer HE furnaces I've seen they are easy to replace. My previous furnace lasted 50 years with minimal trouble, only issue was with the pilot light going out a few times.


Pilot lights seem to be a thing of the past..even on the newer water tanks.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

MY husband did HVAC many years and I remember about 20 years ago he got a call from a home owner who decide to clean their own furnace.He did well taking it apart and cleaning it then could not figure how to put it back together lol.As long as you get it cleaned yearly and change filters most furnaces will last 25-30 years.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> I also get the ducts vacumned out every 2 years..that keeps a lot of the dust down as well.


Might want to save some money there as well, read some research on duct cleaning a while back ... basically they found it made no difference.
I think as long as you have no significant leaks getting past the filter your ducts should remain clean enough.



carverman said:


> Pilot lights seem to be a thing of the past..even on the newer water tanks.


Yep, pilot lights are old tech, my water heater is electronic as well.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Might want to save some money there as well, read some research on duct cleaning a while back ... basically they found it made no difference.
> I think as long as you have no significant leaks getting past the filter your ducts should remain clean enough.


Well, in my case it does make some difference. 
I am a carver (one of my hobbies), and my carving machines,saws, sanders and other paraphernalia are located
in my furnace/laundry room. Sanding even with a Delta suspended shop dust filter still causes fine particles of dust to settle everywhere, even with the sanding shop filter running. 

The furnace runs in this area and the cold air intake for the burners gets some dust, as well as the cold air returns through the lower part of the house..it gets into the ducts eventually. I refrain from doing any serious woodwork in the three coldest parts of the winter, but in the fall and early spring and summer, I do some woodwork/sanding.... and it does seem to find it's way into the ducts. 

I have them cleaned every two years because there is less demand on the furnace filters and I like breathing cleaner air when the furnace is running especially. Less dust to settle on furniture too.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

marina628 said:


> MY husband did HVAC many years and I remember about 20 years ago he got a call from a home owner who decide to clean their own furnace.He did well taking it apart and cleaning it then could not figure how to put it back together lol.As long as you get it cleaned yearly and change filters most furnaces will last 25-30 years.


LOL! I know my gas furnace quite well. I even have the electrical diagram for it, and know how to troubleshoot it and clean/oil the parts that I can clean without any disassembly. 

Dust because of my hobby, does get into the inside of the furnace, which I can vacuum with a soft brush attachment. 
The dust that settles on the gas manifold burners get burned off when the furnace runs. The filter is easily accessible.

There is nothing else to clean on a gas furnace. 
So other than a routine once a year cleaning, there really isn't anything else that needs to be done to a gas furnace, and for that they charge well over $250 plus tax.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> The furnace runs in this area and the cold air intake for the burners gets some dust, as well as the cold air returns through the lower part of the house..it gets into the ducts eventually. I refrain from doing any serious woodwork in the three coldest parts of the winter, but in the fall and early spring and summer, I do some woodwork/sanding.... and it does seem to find it's way into the ducts.


If you can't stop the dust you're creating from getting in there then the cleaning is a good idea. Maybe put a filter on the cold air returns close to your work area when your generating lots of dust, might help extend the times needed for duct cleanings.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

My new furnace came with a 10 year parts warranty, For an additional one-time $300 charge, labour is also included. The caveat on the warranty is that it needs to be inspected once per year by a certified HVAC technician. The company that installed it charges $100 for that service. All in all, I consider the additional $1300 over 10 years not to be an overwhelming burden for the peace of mind that my furnace will work when I need it... right now it's around -20C outside.

After the 10 years, I don't think I'll get any monthly plan, but will have the furnace cleaned and inspected every 3 to 5 years. In between, I can remove access doors and vacuum any dust accumulation around the fan and circuit board..... { Yes, I know about static electricity created by a vacuum }.


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## livewell (Dec 1, 2013)

I have just had to service my furnace, they are such a simple system I would not spend $100+ a year to have someone vacuum it check it and then charge me $$$ to fix it. In the past I have had issues with the flame sensor (Take a toothbrush to it every year to stop oxidation crud building up on it during the annual vacuum). This time my furnace was not keeping up with the -20C temps here, board LED's were indicating the limit switch was tripping (Internal heat exchange over temperature.) A few minutes googling suggested to check if the blower fan needed cleaning before suspecting the limit switch. Multiple Youtube videos (Youtube is great for repairs!) showing how to remove/replace the blower (Bit tricky as you have to remove all the wires from the PC board not difficult, but putting back in the same place is key ;-). Took me about 90 mins to drop + clean and replace the blower fan. Fan was coated with hard dust layer which I cleaned, didn't think it was enough to cause the problem but looks like it was as now the furnace is working peachy


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Userkare said:


> My new furnace came with a 10 year parts warranty, For an additional one-time $300 charge, labour is also included. The caveat on the warranty is that it needs to be inspected once per year by a certified HVAC technician. The company that installed it charges $100 for that service. All in all, I consider the additional $1300 over 10 years not to be an overwhelming burden for the peace of mind that my furnace will work when I need it... right now it's around -20C outside.


if they are charging you $300 for labour and $100 to inspect it (maybe vacuum out the dust), it's more of a maintenance plan
than to justify the "warranty". Just another way of extracting money from you.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

livewell said:


> I have just had to service my furnace, they are such a simple system I would not spend $100+ a year to have someone vacuum it check it and then charge me $$$ to fix it.


It will cost a LOT more than $100 a year these days for a maintenance plan. I had one for exactly 1 year after my 17 year old gas furnace failed last January because the 120volt ignitor burned out. 

Emergency weekend callout about $230 . The service guy talked me into a 1 year maintenance plan, (think it was about $200+ with tax, after failing to convince me to go for a new furnace with them. That was all that was wrong with my furnace for the rest of the year. 

I ordered a new high tech furnace motor and blower for it, figuring that bearings on the motor were going
anyway. The Evergreen motor is great, it's a retrofit dc commutated motor with an speed selector built in and is about 25% more efficient than the old split phase original 1/2 hp fan motor. 

I had to hire a HVAC tech to install it. Probably could have done it myself, but wasn't sure about the high voltage connections on the furnace circuit board, and didn't want to make a mistake, since the motor was new and I didn't want to blow up the furnace controller if I put the wrong wire on the wrong push-on terminal.
Cost me a bit to have him install it, but now it's running great and I can select up to 4 fan speeds from a switch on the furnace.

I also have a spare ignitor ready, in case the replaced one ever fails again..cheap "insurance". 



> In the past I have had issues with the flame sensor (Take a toothbrush to it every year to stop oxidation crud building up on it during the annual vacuum). This time my furnace was not keeping up with the -20C temps here, board LED's were indicating the limit switch was tripping (Internal heat exchange over temperature.)


Good to know. 



> A few minutes googling suggested to check if the blower fan needed cleaning before suspecting the limit switch. Multiple Youtube videos (Youtube is great for repairs!) showing how to remove/replace the blower (Bit tricky as you have to remove all the wires from the PC board not difficult, but putting back in the same place is key ;-).


Mine is on a shelf below the heat exchanger that pulls out. I don't have to remove any wires from the pc board
as all the wires now are on a connector. 



> Took me about 90 mins to drop + clean and replace the blower fan. Fan was coated with hard dust layer which I cleaned, didn't think it was enough to cause the problem but looks like it was as now the furnace is working peachy)


 I've had to take my old blower off and wash it thoroughly in the laundry tubs. The service guy that
changed over the blower motor for me, told me the old blower "wasn't very good" and should be replaced.

I ordered a new blower, from the US parts distributor for my furnace, cost me about $80 (with exchange and taxes
and shipping) to have it shipped in from the US, installed it myself and it vibrated like crazy on the new motor. 

The construction was very light almost like aluminium and unbalanced apparently at the shaft center...like a
wobble.
I didn't want to run the new motor with this unbalanced blower, so I took it off and replaced it with the
OLD blower..vibration problem solved. The new blower went to the metal recyclers. It would be too expensive
to ship it back with CP exorbitant shipping costs these days.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

carverman said:


> if they are charging you $300 for labour and $100 to inspect it (maybe vacuum out the dust), it's more of a maintenance plan
> than to justify the "warranty". Just another way of extracting money from you.


The $300 was a one-time 'insurance premium' to cover labour costs if the furnace needs repair within the 10 year parts-only warranty that came from the new HE gas furnace manufacturer. The terms of the warranty clearly state that an annual inspection is required to keep the warranty in force. 

In any case, it seems that you've already made up your mind not to get a furnace maintenance plan; and I understand that. 

As I see it, recently retired, I'm also looking for ways to save unnecessary recurring expenses. When I create a pie-chart of my spending over the last year, the $100 yearly furnace maintenance cost is a tiny tiny sliver of the pie. Things like home and car insurance are much larger slices. If the insurance company were to give me a discount for keeping my furnace regularly maintained, that would be nice; but the opposite is more likely true - that if my house were to burn down because of a furnace malfunction, and I never had it inspected by a certified HVAC technician, they might try to refuse paying out.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Userkare said:


> If the insurance company were to give me a discount for keeping my furnace regularly maintained, that would be nice; but the *opposite is more likely true - that if my house were to burn down because of a furnace malfunction, and I never had it inspected by a certified HVAC technician, they might try to refuse paying out.*


Where did you hear that? Where you are forced to have a furnace maintenance plan because your fire insurance will be negated , because your house burned down, and the insurance company determined that you did not have an annual furnace maintenance plan? 

Let me guess..its the furnace company your have a maintenance contract with?

Hmmm..now you got me worried:cower:

Lots of things can go wrong to cause a house to burn down...so maybe I better get these guys back and pay them $230 a year in my case to vacuum the dust out of the furnace front area..which I can do myself. :hopelessness:


What else do they do for me..nothing ....unless the furnace fails. I've had one failure in 18 years, and that was the ignitor burning out..I didn't have a spare, it was not on annual maintence plan..so I got caught then, but in the 16 years since I've been living in the house, that was the ONLY time.

Gas furnaces are more likely to develop an problem where the exhaust flue gets blocked allowing carbon monoxide can be introduced into the house..that can be very deadly, and you probably won't be able to collect on your fire insurance if that happens, because..well.....you can figure out what happens... if enough carbon monoxide gets released into the house in the winter time when all the windows are generally closed.

Having carbon monoxide detectors these days is compulsory now in most municipalities along with smoke detectors. 

An old retired couple in their late 70s in the Ottawa area, recently perished in a house fire that apparently started in the basement. 
Fire Marshall investigating could not determine if they had sufficient smoke detectors or carbon monoxide detectors, or a furnace maintenance plan..or even what started the fire. 


I have TWO carbon monoxide detectors. One upstairs above a heating vent and one down in the furnace room as well as two smoke detectors at each level.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

carverman said:


> Where did you hear that? Where you are forced to have a furnace maintenance plan because your fire insurance will be negated , because your house burned down, and the insurance company determined that you did not have an annual furnace maintenance plan?
> 
> Let me guess..its the furnace company your have a maintenance contract with?
> 
> ...


Sorry, I'm not trying to spread FUD. I have no direct knowledge of any insurance company denying a claim b/c of a furnace malfunction that would have been detected by a routine inspection. My comment was meant, that given the reputation of insurance companies, they probably would not give a discount for someone being diligent in maintaining their furnace, but "more likely" to try to deny a claim to someone who didn't.

That said, my last house was heated by a wood-burning central forced-air furnace. The Ontario fire code says that such an appliance needs to have the chimney inspected annually. The chimney was one of the double-walled insulated metal pipe that ran up the outside of a cedar siding house. There was a clean-out trap at the bottom that I could remove, and look right up the chimney to see blue sky. If there was any soot or creosote build-up, I would pull a big round brush through the chimney until it was shiny. If I had not done that, and if repeated chimney fires resulted in a breakdown of the metal lining resulting in a fire, do you think the insurance company would be happy to hand over a claim in light of a violation of the fire code? As it was, I had a separate rider to the policy to cover the wood burning furnace. I don't have that paperwork any more to see if there were any clauses relating to chimney inspections.

As far as $230 for vacuuming dust - you should look for another service company. For my $100, the technician checks the pressure differential between the return and supply plenum, measures and adjusts the gas flow rate, and inspects the exhaust pipe for signs of cracks.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Userkare said:


> That said, my last house was heated by a wood-burning central forced-air furnace. The Ontario fire code says that such an appliance needs to have the chimney inspected annually.


That is a different situation completely. Wood furnaces by nature develop creosote in the pipes and chimneys and been the trigger for many house fires. A lot of insurance companies will NOT INSURE houses with wood burning fireplaces or furnaces for that reason, especially if you want to switch insurance companies to save on premiums.

They are pretty smart these days to ask questions over the phone, then send a you the questionnaire with the boxes you have "checked off"
You have to return the signed questionnaire back to them by mail before they issue the policy. 



> As it was, I had a separate rider to the policy to cover the wood burning furnace. I don't have that paperwork any more to see if there were any clauses relating to chimney inspections.


I can certainly see a separate insurance rider for a wood burning fireplace or furnace. These are considered to be higher fire risks than an oil, propane or nat gas furnace. 



> As far as $230 for vacuuming dust - you should look for another service company. For my $100, the technician checks the pressure differential between the return and supply plenum, measures and adjusts the gas flow rate, and inspects the exhaust pipe for signs of cracks.


These guys were too expensive, but maybe they decided to up the price of the contract because of the age of the gas furnace, that they installed in 1994. I didn't have any problem with the price, but they did absolutely nothing to in the way of service or checks on the pressure differential.
I was there when they came. All they did was wash the air filter and vacuum the front of the furnace..both things I can do myself.

I got fed up with paying these clowns for nothing. I NOW have a more reasonable HVAC certified tech, that I can now call on a emergency basis, if the furnace stops working. He's the one that installed the dc commutated fan motor for me. 

The other clowns didn't want to do any maintenance like clean the flame sensor or give it a thorough yearly checkout, even though on the yearly maintenance plan certificate they sent me , it mentioned all the things they were supposed to do.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Oil furnaces are required by law to have an annual servicing/inspection in Ontario too. (The odds are they will stop working after a year if you don't, due to soot on the flame detector, so most oil furnace owners had maintenance contracts before they became mandatory anyway.)

In comparison, conventional and mid-efficiency gas furnaces are relatively maintenance-free. But pretty well all new installations now have to be high-efficiency condensing furnaces. I don't think maintenance on these is a DIY task. So there is a fair marketing push on to sell people on maintenance contracts (service plans is probably a better term, as they generally cover emergency service year-around). A high-efficiency furnace will likely run for quite a while without one; but then when it quits in the middle of January, you will have to call a contractor who:
a) will not give you priority over customers with service contracts; and
b) will charge 2-3 times the annual maintenance fee to make an emergency call.


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## 6811 (Jan 1, 2013)

OhGreatGuru said:


> Oil furnaces are required by law to have an annual servicing/inspection in Ontario too. (The odds are they will stop working after a year if you don't, due to soot on the flame detector, so most oil furnace owners had maintenance contracts before they became mandatory anyway.)
> 
> In comparison, conventional and mid-efficiency gas furnaces are relatively maintenance-free. But pretty well all new installations now have to be high-efficiency condensing furnaces. I don't think maintenance on these is a DIY task. So there is a fair marketing push on to sell people on maintenance contracts (service plans is probably a better term, as they generally cover emergency service year-around). A high-efficiency furnace will likely run for quite a while without one; but then when it quits in the middle of January, you will have to call a contractor who:
> a) will not give you priority over customers with service contracts; and
> b) will charge 2-3 times the annual maintenance fee to make an emergency call.


^ +1 

Oh, and that 10 year parts warranty that comes with the new furnace? Well it turns out that it doesn't cover everything. I had to fork out over $1000 for a CPU module two years after my new installation because I thought it was all inclusive and didn't need a plan. I've had a furnace plan ever since.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> A high-efficiency furnace will likely run for quite a while without one; but then when it quits in the middle of January, you will have to call a contractor who:
> a) will not give you priority over customers with service contracts; and
> b) will *charge 2-3 times the annual maintenance fee to make an emergency call*.


That is true; but at the same time..it depends on how often the furnace fails, and how old the furnace is. 
The HVAC techs know when the furnace was installed because every gas appliance has to have an installation
tag or sticker affixed to it. 

I don't know if these guys have a guide to consult on how much to charge on a furnace depending on it's age, and
reliability history, but in any cdse it ends up costing a lot more than $100 a year for older furnaces that are mid efficiency (80-85%)
and been without a maintenance plan since the original 1 year warranty expired. Then the HST is on top of that. 

In my case, it failed only once on me in 17 years of service, and that was due to a 120volt ignitor...a glow plug.
Of course the furnace always fails in the middle of January-February when it is being used the most. 
I could have changed the ignitor myself (its on a two pin molex plug) and saved myself the cost of their overpriced ignitor and emergency callout, but when you are worried about the pipes or yourself freezing, the price they charge is no longer a consideration at that point.

I'm back to NOT having a yearly maintenance plan, this winter since the only time I actually had one was after the ignitor failure, and now that I have a spare, I'm not as worried. 

I also found a HVAC tech that will come when called, and charge me a lot less as an independent, if it's something
I can't troubleshoot myself. I also can order the parts from the US distributor, (my spare ignitor) as long as it's
not an emergency, of course.

Yes it's definitely a peace of mind thing with these maintenance plans, but some of the major components such as the heat exchanger or the controller are not covered under the yearly maintenance anyway, so you end up paying for the vacuuming and cleaning the air filter.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

6811 said:


> ^ +1
> 
> Oh, and that 10 year parts warranty that comes with the new furnace? Well it turns out that it doesn't cover everything. I had to fork out over $1000 for a CPU module two years after my new installation because I thought it was all inclusive and didn't need a plan. I've had a furnace plan ever since.


That charge would also include the installation labour I would think. Something most people are not qualified to do themselves. Depending the make and model of furnace you have, these MICROCONTROLLER control boards range from $153 USD to $300 USD. 










Add the exchange, installation labour etc and taxes, that sounds pretty close maybe to what you were charged, as the furnace service people would double the price that they get it for.

So if the board in question costs them $300 USD + shipping from their distributor, they will double the price they
charge you and sales tax on that.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

I'm going to keep my old 1987 furnace as long as I can. Yes new furnaces are definitely more efficient - but after the capital cost of the furnace, the extra cost of the yearly inspections, and expensive parts once the warranty is up, given cheap gas now - mine is cheaper to run and I have NEVER called a furnace repair guy. I hate it when higher efficiency savings are offset by lower reliability.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> I'm going to keep my old 1987 furnace as long as I can. Yes new furnaces are definitely more efficient -* but after the capital cost of the furnace, the extra cost of the yearly inspections, and expensive parts once the warranty is up, given cheap gas now - mine is cheaper to run *and I have NEVER called a furnace repair guy. I hate it when higher efficiency savings are offset by lower reliability.


I have to agree. My Miller-Nordyne mid efficiency gas furnace was installed in 1994...that makes it 21 years old this year.
Other than the A/C, separate issue from it, which had to be replaced completely in 2006, it has run trouble free until
the 120volt ignitor failed Jan 2013. 

Not really accustomed to the failure pattern in this kind of furnace, I was caught by surprise, so had no choice but to call emergency repair by the same outfit that installed it.
Yes it was expensive, but as it turned out that emergency repair turned out to be about the same price as a yearly "maintenance" plan where they advertised in their brochure to do a lot more maintenance than they actually did..vacumn the front of the furnace and wash out the filter. 
Then they suggested that maybe it was time to get a high efficiency furnace from them for $5k PLUS and* save on nat gas*. 
I told them where to go!

I was annoyed with the fact that they had "shortchanged" me on the maintenance they were supposed to do and only after I called them to remind them I wanted it done. I cancelled the maintenance/emergency repair plan when it expired the following winter.

Since then I have a spare ignitor on hand and I also found a parts place in the US for that furnace that can supply all the parts except the heat exchanger for it.


I never bothered with a maintenance plan except that one time after the ignitor failed after 19 years.
Bought it with the house, two years after it was installed, by then it was off warranty anyway.

My neighbour, OTOH, installed a high efficiency furnace (I think it was a Lennox?) around the same time as mine was and after several emergency calls over it's lifetime, replaced it with another brand after 10-15 years of service....so if you have one that is reliable, stay with it.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Hi Carverman
I have fixed furnaces for a few friends which are probably similar to yours. They needed a new induced draft fan - the little fan at the top that blows the exhaust out the chimney. Typically the bearings start to seize up and it turns too slowly and doesn't satisfy the pressure switch which shuts off the furnace. Check that it turns freely and continues to spin a bit after power is turned off. If not a little oil should help it out. It comes out fairly easily with a few bolts also. On one friends furnace, a repair guy told them not to touch it and not to oil it. I took it apart because it just wasn't turning and stamped on the motor was "oil monthly". So no oil for 10 years and guess what? 

My parents were having problems recently with their furnace (in Ottawa). They had a maintenance contract with Direct Energy - $600 per year to fix and repair with the exception of the heat exchanger. "The guy" came to fix it and said they needed a new gas valve. Of course they had to order it. They checked for CO/cracked heat exchanger and no issues. 2 weeks later it arrived, a guy came to install it - same problems. So it wasn't the gas valve. This guy said they needed a new ignitor. Ordered it - installed it - no not the problem - AGAIN! Then they tried really hard to up sell them to a new furnace. The guy did all kinds of testing and finally said they have a CO problem! Funny there was a CO problem now and not a few weeks earlier and the furnace had not run in that time. So they were worried about a cracked heat exchanger. I told them to ask to see the CO monitor readings - turns out it was the exhaust gas from the chimney that showed high CO levels - not in the air plenum - which they assumed the guy was talking about. Because they asked why the probe was in the exhaust and not the air plenum, he then clarified and said that they needed a new induced draft fan and of course needed to order one. He did all this testing because "Head Office" was tired of all the parts they seemed to need for this furnace and it still didn't work properly - ie quality poor repair guys. End of the story - this fan was replaced and it cleaned up excess CO in the exhaust which apparently should be part of the inspections that they do - measure the draft pressure. It turns out the bearings were starting to stiffen up and the fan wasn't turning fast enough to draw the exhaust fast enough. Furnace runs nicely again. 
So if they didn't question the CO reading and found it was in the exhaust rather than the air plenum, they would have a new high efficiency furnace with it's expensive maintenance problems and be out $5000. Even the 'authorized and trained' repair guys can't get it right the first (or second) time and it is easier (and more profitable) to recommend a new furnace. If the heat exchanger is not cracked, it is just parts which should be easy to replace and no need for a new furnace - in my opinion.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> I have fixed furnaces for a few friends which are probably similar to yours. They needed a new induced draft fan - the little fan at the top that blows the exhaust out the chimney. Typically the bearings start to seize up and it turns too slowly and doesn't satisfy the pressure switch which shuts off the furnace. Check that it turns freely and continues to spin a bit after power is turned off. If not a little oil should help it out. It comes out fairly easily with a few bolts also. On one friends furnace, a repair guy told them not to touch it and not to oil it. I took it apart because it just wasn't turning and stamped on the motor was "oil monthly". So no oil for 10 years and guess what?


I have that same inducer motor. It has two bronze sleeve bearings, a drop or two of oil at the start of each heating season is all that motor needs and I can do that. if that is done, it will last for years and years...regardless of what the 'repairmen" tell you. I don't oil mine monthly though.
BTW..I can get that same motor shipped from the US supplier within 3 days. I haven't ordered a spare one yet, unless I see evidence it is starting to make a noise while running. If it seizes up on the bearings, the furnace stops.



> My parents were having problems recently with their furnace (in Ottawa). They had a maintenance contract with Direct Energy - *$600 per year to fix and repair* with the exception of the heat exchanger. "The guy" came to fix it and said they needed a new gas valve. Of course they had to order it. . I told them to ask to see the CO monitor readings - turns out it was the exhaust gas from the chimney that showed high CO levels - not in the air plenum - which they assumed the guy was talking about.


Sounds like that repair guy didn't understand gas furnaces very well. Fortunately I have the specs and wiring diagram for mine and can troubleshoot with a DVM very quickly if it is cycling but no heating.
I have *two CO monitors*, one in the furnace room and one on top of a heating vent upstairs..if either one of them go off, I would shut down the furnace via the on/off switch and investigate with the windows open
in the furnace room. Usually the CO detectors will go off as soon as they detect a few ppm. well in advance of any dangerous carbon monoxide levels in the house. 



> Because they asked why the probe was in the exhaust and not the air plenum, he then clarified and said that they needed a new induced draft fan and of course needed to order one. He did all this testing because "Head Office" was tired of all the parts they seemed to need for this furnace and it still didn't work properly - ie *quality poor repair guys*.





> - this fan was replaced and it cleaned up excess CO in the exhaust which apparently should be part of the inspections that they do - measure the draft pressure. It turns out the bearings were starting to stiffen up and the fan wasn't turning fast enough to draw the exhaust fast enough. Furnace runs nicely again.


I had the entire exhaust stack replaced on mine right to the roof. The installer drilled a small hole in the exhaust stack (above the inducer fan) for such a test, and covered the hole with the special red silicone seal. The "lazies" I contracted for the 1 year maintenance plan never tested out the pressure when they came. They were more interested in selling me a new furnace. The knowledge and quality of work seems to vary greatly with these repairmen. 



> So if they didn't question the CO reading and found it was in the exhaust rather than the air plenum, they would have a new high efficiency furnace with it's expensive maintenance problems and be out $5000. Even the 'authorized and trained' repair guys can't get it right the first (or second) time and *it is easier (and more profitable) to recommend a new furnace.* If the heat exchanger is not cracked, it is just parts which should be easy to replace and no need for a new furnace - in my opinion.


That's how they make their money, not from repeat troubleshooting visits on a maintenance contract.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Moral of the story - "Show me", don't take their word for it and ask questions.

Sounds like you have a good handle on caring for your furnace. These are not complicated devices - but as you said they make their money on selling new - not repairing.
Reminds me of the recent Marketplace show about appliances only lasting 5 'ish years with built in problems and manufacturers that don't stand behind poor designs. Of course no availability of spare parts and if they are available, they are expensive and with the service call cost (usually 2) - it's cheaper just to replace it. A sad commentary on our throw away society and why China et al is doing so well manufacturing crap.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> Reminds me of the recent Marketplace show about appliances only lasting 5 'ish years with built in problems and manufacturers that don't stand behind poor designs. Of course no availability of spare parts and if they are available, they are expensive and with the service call cost (usually 2) - it's cheaper just to replace it. A sad commentary on our throw away society and why China et al is doing so well manufacturing crap.


I started a thread on that in CMF. The whole culture has changed in the last 20 years. 

Now they sell complicated microcontroller appliances that when they fail, the service guys can't seem to understand what the intermittent problems are, because they are now basically parts swappers. 

My son bought a GE fridge a few years ago (5 or 6 maybe) and it was one of these fancy side by side models with an icemaker, chilled water dispenser etc, and of course it had one of these microcontrollers in it.

It failed about 3 months after the manufacturer's warranty ran out.He didn't believe in an extended warranty and got caught. 

Repair guys from Sears came *once, twice, three times*, swapped parts but still it wasn't cooling the way it did when new. 

He finally got fed up with this and complained to the store where he bought it. Because they claimed they couldn't fix it at his home, they brought him a loaner fridge, then took his to their shop. After a few weeks they still couldn't get it to cool reliably, so they gave him credit towards the purchase of a new fridge. He bought a another brand (not GE) and it has been working reliably ever since.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

OP says his mid-efficiency furnace is 20+ years old. I agree a maintenance plan is probably not worth it. But odds are the heat exchanger is going to crack any day now, and servicemen will tell him the only choice is to replace the furnace. Other replaceable elements may fail, but unless you are a real handyman, you will be at the mercy of the serviceman as to whether he really can't get parts anymore or would just prefer to sell you a new furnace. 

Personally, I wouldn't sink much money into repairing a 20-year old gas furnace, because they just weren't made to last.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> OP says his mid-efficiency furnace is 20+ years old.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't sink much money into repairing a 20-year old gas furnace, because they just weren't made to last.


We shall see..time will tell as they say. Right now other than a new dc commutated fan motor that I chose to replace because it saves 25% electricity and has a slow speed up and down feature, that 20 year furnace (other than the one service call has cost me less than $1500 over 20 years, (which also includes the new chimney ($700) and the one years maintenance plan that I bought, that turned out to be kind of of a waste of money.

At $230 per year maintenance contract for the last 18 years I have owned it (minus 1 year $250 that I did put it on) ...that's $3890 already saved, so it has paid for itself by now.

Whether the heat exchanger is going to crack 'anyday now" is like placing a bet on how much time I have left. When the even happens, then something will be done. as the furnace will be red tagged at that point. I can get a replacement heat exchanger for it on ebay for $850 US. I will have to weigh the options when the time comes.

As far as safety, I have TWO CO monitors in the house, one placed above a heat vent. If it ever goes off, I will shut down the furnace and have the source investigated.

It's like having a 15 year old HWT...that I own outright...I saved enough in the last 15 years by not paying rental fees, that I can afford to have it replaced when the time comes.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Called my personal furnace repair man this week. Asked him about coming over and do a combustion test on my 20 yr old gas furnace for checking if there is any CO in the exhaust stack.

He told me he doesn't do that kind of work, and advised me that IF I call in somebody (like DE-you know who they are), as soon as they find out the age of the furnace, they manage to find "cracks" in the heat exchanger, and red tag it and then force you to buy a new furnace, because you have no choice once it is red tagged.

Generally people have to take their word for it, and many are scammed into buying a new furnace when their old one is still working perfectly.
This can also happen on those yearly maintenance plans that some furnace companies provide, especially after the furnace is off their warranty and around 10 years old or more. 

Nobody out there guarantees the heat exchanger except the original manufacturer (up to 10 years)and
once the original prorated warranty (parts only -labour is extra) they got you because to change out the heat exchanger (if one is even available as a replacement part) it costs about 50% of the cost of a new furnace and carries only a 1 year warranty.
Bit of a scam here, I would think.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

If you get a furnace guy in to clean and inspect etc. - do it in the summer or fall before you really need the furnace in case they do find an issue. That way you have a chance to shop around for a furnace that has good reviews and perhaps not be forced into an emergency "we got you" replacement. 

I checked with a local furnace shop and they said they would drop the price for a summer installation when their guys are not so busy. I took the opportunity to ask at the parts counter what he would recommend based on parts prices and frequency & reliability of furnaces they service. I was initially leaning towards a Carrier - but he said their parts were more expensive than most. He preferred a Lennox. I didn't get a new furnace but it is interesting to see what the parts guy recommends.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> If you get a furnace guy in to clean and inspect etc. - do it in the summer or fall before you really need the furnace in case they do find an issue. That way you have a chance to shop around for a furnace that has good reviews and perhaps not be forced into an emergency "we got you" replacement.
> 
> I checked with a local furnace shop and they said they would drop the price for a summer installation when their guys are not so busy. I took the opportunity to ask at the parts counter what he would recommend based on parts prices and frequency & reliability of furnaces they service. I was initially leaning towards a Carrier - but he said their parts were more expensive than most. He preferred a Lennox. I didn't get a new furnace but it is interesting to see what the parts guy recommends.


Lennox and Carrier used to be good, but they were sold to other interests and no longer have the reputation they used for for reliability.

My central air unit was a Lennox. Failed to cool after 10 years.

Kept losing freon. My refrigeration guy finally found the problem..the grade of copper used in the condenser outside was "porous" and it leaked out the gas slowly over time when the unit was not being used, 9 months of the year. 

Cost of replacement was about half of the cost a new one A/C unit, and he would only guarantee his replacement parts and work, not the other 10 year old part (evaporator) in the furnace. 

I decided to replace the entire a/C with a Keeprite unit with the new style compressor and the CFC free refrigerant.
Been working great for the last 5 years. The evaporator inside was a more efficient unit with an extra cooling tube
to give it a bit more cooling capacity for the same size. 

This guy worked as an independent contractor and knows all the other brands quite well because of service calls. He mentioned that it was hard to find a good one today. 

As far as the replacement gas furnace, when the time comes, I'll will consider a GOODMAN. It seems to have very positive reviews..
4.7 out out of 5 stars. 
https://www.furnacecompare.com/furnaces/goodman/gmvc95.html


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Porous copper? Wow.
Thanks for the review on the Goodman. I too have been looking for something that has positive reviews. I'll pay a bit more for a more reliable unit.

It seems most things these days have had quality reduced in the name of profits and shareholder value. I remember when "Euro" became popular in the early 80's. My experience with this was that electrical parts (contacts etc.) became less robust than the North American made equipment. Use to be that something rated at 15A would probably be good for 20-25A but the Euro specs whittled this down to 15A. Then the weaknesses began to show up.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> It seems most things these days have had quality reduced in the name of profits and shareholder value. I remember when "Euro" became popular in the early 80's. My experience with this was that electrical parts (contacts etc.) became less robust than the North American made equipment. Use to be that s*omething rated at 15A would probably be good for 20-25A* but the Euro specs whittled this down to 15A. Then the weaknesses began to show up.


The problem with Euro was that items that were used in Europe on 220Volt system were rated for 220volt operation and the
currents associated with those voltages with some safety margin. Since the currents on a 220volt electricaL part (switches/contacts) are about half of the same power consumption on 120volt operation, the same electrical apparatus used on 120volt systems, no longer had those safety margins/robustness you mentioned.

Now most of the electrical stuff is made in China for export is manufactured by Chinese who use 220volt systems, similar to the rest of the world. 220volt systems require less robust copper systems such as wire guage and plug contacts.



> Domestic electricity supply voltage varies between countries. Over 30 countries (including those in North America) use a voltage of 110V~130V, *while another 120 countries (including most of Europe), use a voltage of 220V~230V*. The electricity in *China is generally 220V, 50HZ, AC *(Hong Kong is 220V; Taiwan is 110V), while the supply voltage of Japan is 100V, 50/60HZ.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> Porous copper? Wow.


I found it hard to believe myself until he showed me the refrigerant oil around the perimeter of the condenser fins inside the outdoor unit. Whether it was the electrical welding of the cooling fins to the tubes that carry the refrigerant that has picked up heat, he didn't specify, but it took him a visit or two to find the problem. 

Since the original R22 refrigerant had been pretty escaped to the atmosphere (CFC), he charged the system with nitrogen as the specs require to find the leaks ,and even then the pressure did not go down the way he expected it would with a normal piping leak.

Even after a few hours, the nitrogen pressure (using a pressure gauge) on one of the lines from the condenser unit was still almost normal...hence his analysis that the actual copper used in the condenser unit had to be "porous".

BTW, I had him recharge that Lennox unit TWICE before, and it was down about 2-3lbs...he thouht it was unusual, but couldn't find any leaks, so I just continued for the balance of the summer. 

The following year, the summer weather was cooler than normal so I didn't run the A/C very much. But the year
after that, it got quite warm in early July, and even though the A/C ran all day, it didn't seem to be cooling down the
house at all..so that is when I called him again for the 3rd service call.

BTW..My next door neighbour (widow in her late 80s), had her gas furnace replaced with a Lennox, about the same time as I bought my place in 1996..she had to replace it with another 95% effiicient unit about 3 years ago. It was around 14 years old at the time. I often noticed the service truck coming to work on her furnace in the cold months. 
That is why I won't touch Lennox products now...they used to have a good reputation, but not anymore.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Bumping this thread with something else to consider before signing a furnace service contract..

If you sell your house, you have to pay the remainder of the monthly billings to the end of the contract renewal date. The new owners can't use up what's left of your contract, they have to get their own.


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