# For those who keep saying they don’t exist



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

http://landrushcanada.com/

One of the presentations, if you look, is 100 properties under 100k. 

People keep saying I make this stuff up, but this is a conference presented by a Vancouver realtor (not saying these properties are in gta or GVA, but there does seem to be a bunch out there confirmed by an independent party). 

Then again, I probably faked the website and am just making this up too.

On a side note, my son just closed on a very nice, move in ready, three bed for 70k.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

JAG, you should be gracious that you essentially have your own forum here. So you can continue with whatever stories you want to tell.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Yeah, I figured that in providing outside proof people still wouldn’t be satisfied...generally why I do t bother trying to prove anything.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> Yeah, I figured that in providing outside proof people still wouldn’t be satisfied...generally why I do t bother trying to prove anything.


I saw your link mostly as another slick polyester suited attempt to separate people from their money, but I confess to not having gone very far. All the power to those who dig deeper and think a fast buck can be made (maybe yes, likely no). I've been to enough of these things over the past 20 years to know they are mostly shills looking to make fees off unsuspecting people looking for magical returns. 

Very few people can (or want to) be successful landlords. Too much hands on in relatively illiquid assets. I do have friends and family who have dabbled in investment RE, from houses to townhomes, to condos and even 6-20 unit apartment buildings, and it is a lot of effort for the gain. Luck has a lot to do with it, e.g. regional markets. Calgary was fantastic for price appreciation until it wasn't.

Way more information is available on capital markets and way more opportunities to pursue gains, avoiding speculative investing of course. Most of us are much happier with a stock portfolio...thank you very much. My overall stock/bond portfolio has a 10.7 year return of just shy of 10% (purposely avoiding 1/1/2009 so as not to data mine results). There are RE forums and places to cheer lead RE if that is one's cup of tea. The RE forum here and that on FWF obviously serve a purpose but mostly on matters other than RE investment portfolios for a living.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just tell them to look at the realtor.ca map site and put in the min/max $ figures and see for themselves how many properties pop up.

https://www.realtor.ca/map#ZoomLeve...Center=49.495684653108995,-111.22925180808356

As for being 'gracious' rather than 'grateful' LOL, yeah, be gracious.


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## l1quidfinance (Mar 17, 2017)

I've no ideo on the rental yield but even a look on Realtor yields plenty of properties in major cities below or at $100k

Certainally excluding Toronto and Vancouver but even to the untrained eye there has to be some hiddnen gems out there.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I wasn’t promoting the conference, I agree it’s probably a cash grab. What I was pointing out was a specific talk where they can’t really fudge what they are saying as all the listings are on mls. Many torontonians, especially our old poster Rachel, swore such properties didn’t exist anywhere because she was a property manager in Toronto and there weren’t many there. Humble has taken up the cry for her now that she’s moved on, but we all know how good their information usually is too.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

l1quidfinance said:


> I've no ideo on the rental yield but even a look on Realtor yields plenty of properties in major cities below or at $100k
> 
> Certainally excluding Toronto and Vancouver but even to the untrained eye there has to be some hiddnen gems out there.


Maybe a gem or too but I doubt it. Guess if one is into being a slum landlord for the most part. Not the sort of property or tenant that I'd want, but then I don't want to expend any effort in that business ever.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Again, doesn’t look, labels everything slum...talk about closed minded. 

The one my son just bought is move in ready, close to a trendy neighbourhood, the common area has all been recently upgraded and the only other unit for sale in the place is a two bed listed at 120k.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

There can be reasonable buys, e.g. a foreclosure, divorce, handyman special, leaving country, etc. so that a property is priced to sell relatively quickly. No one prices way below market without there being a significant issue. I've bought and sold homes, albeit only one investment property, for almost 50 years now, and regularly visit realtor.ca to see what is happening in my municipality. I will leave it at that.....


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

JAG
It does not matter what you are investing in. If it is out of the mainstream, lots of posters will question how you can make money at it. All measure of explaining will produce no agreement. Just don't sweat it!

I know you are genuinely trying to help but it will do no good.
Thanks for your contributions.

(BTW Rachael knows all about the ugly underbelly of the rental industry and the slime investors who are also involved. If I were still in the business, I would not hesitate to hire her.)


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

That is why JAG has his own RE forum on CMF. For those that wish to play in this game.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> There can be reasonable buys, e.g. a foreclosure, divorce, handyman special, leaving country, etc. so that a property is priced to sell relatively quickly. No one prices way below market without there being a significant issue. I've bought and sold homes, albeit only one investment property, for almost 50 years now, and regularly visit realtor.ca to see what is happening in my municipality. I will leave it at that.....


Looking at mls is significantly different than being active in the market. Right now, the market is dead. If you have cash, you can get amazing deals I haven’t seen in probably 20 years. Not all houses are distressed, not all sell quickly, not all are slums. That being said, I’m sure the one rental you bought over the past 50 years, not to mention the various properties you’ve bought and sold, makes you an expert in the current market. Listings and solds are completely different and mls doesn’t let you know what properties have actually sold for. That being said, I bow to your superior knowledge. I’m sure that since I assume you drive a car, you’re probably an expert in nascar and open wheel racing too. Rode in a plane once? Must be an astronaut. 

Not sure why all your posts today seem to have attitude, but they certainly aren’t very accurate which is unusual.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> Not sure why all your posts today seem to have attitude, but they certainly aren’t very accurate which is unusual.


It is one of those days when I like to jab a little....and call you out.

I don't profess to be an expert by any stretch in RE. I really don't much care about RE of any kind... though I've had to be engaged in the market every few years, mostly helping others find product. Common sense over time just tells me that no one really intentionally gives product away of any kind at significant discounts to prevailing market value. Perhaps one has to look daily for years to find those one or two exceptions. As for prices, I occasionally get certain realtor friends to get me sold prices because I am too lazy to pay land records to find out. All said, I've had my fun for today. You appear to have found your niche.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

In my experience common sense isn’t very common. If markets worked on common sense, it would be a lot easier to make money.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Selling tickets for info to get rich is pretty old hat way to fleece morons whether it is real estate, equities,national budget, or Amway. JAG I know you work hard doing the flip thing but that link was beneath you.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

First off, I don’t flip. Second, I was just pointing out a specific speaker who’s presenting a list of mls listings in his talk. I never endorsed he conference, in fact I also posted that afterwards. 

All the link was intended to do was point out someone (other than me) found 100 properties for under 100k, something some people have never wanted to believe exist, even when I posted links. So I found an independent source and now it’s being can criticized with unrelated attacks about the conference. 

You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him think.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Why would anyone pay $1100 a month to live in a house they can buy for $25,000 ?

Sorry, but that doesn't happen. My wife's parents rented out their home in town in Saskatchewan to a teacher who paid the $300 a year taxes as rent.

Small town homes don't fetch big city rents. Housing like most other things of value is based on supply and demand.

There is a big demand for homes in big urban cities and no demand in remote rural areas. There are reasons for that.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Wouldn’t know about small towns, I only own places in major cities. As to why people pay rent instead of owning, some can’t or don’t want to buy. Where you got the 25k number from, I gather it’s your rich imagination as usual...though I know a guy in the states who has access to 25k properties which can rent for $900. Places like escanaba, Hannahville, etc.

Of course, sags is the expert on everything, not having actually done anything, so I bow to their expertise.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We had a bunch of $50K - $70K apartment units for sale in our city. They were converted rental buildings and the rent listed was $565 a month.

People willing to live in those units don't have $1100 a month to pay for rent. People who can pay $1100 a month rent don't choose to live in those kinds of places.

You are talking about small town prices and big city rents. It doesn't work that way.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> In my experience common sense isn’t very common. If markets worked on common sense, it would be a lot easier to make money.


The saying I like is, 'if common sense were common, the term common sense would not exist.'


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> Maybe a gem or too but I doubt it. Guess if one is into being a slum landlord for the most part. Not the sort of property or tenant that I'd want, but then I don't want to expend any effort in that business ever.


LOL, you really do like hyperbole AltaRed.

Here is a slum property for $47k near the University of Winnipeg. I guess a 'slum landlord' could rent it to a student if they could find a student who was willing to live in such a 'slum'. https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/20489127/1-bedroom-condo-9-350-quappelle-ave-winnipeg-central

Or how about this one. https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/20219777/2-bedroom-condo-11-722-maryland-st-winnipeg-west-end Think some 'slum landlord' could rent it to someone willing to live in such a 'slum'? 

These particular properties may or may not be a good investment depending on how the cash flow would work out and I'm not suggesting they are good. But that properties do exist that are not 'slum's is certainly not hard to show AltaRed. 

The problem as I see it is that too many people are willing to do as you appear to be doing and saying 'I doubt it' without actually having any knowledge or having put in any effort before making their opinion known. You are entitled to your opinion, however wrong you may be as in this case.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> Why would anyone pay $1100 a month to live in a house they can buy for $25,000 ?
> 
> Sorry, but that doesn't happen. My wife's parents rented out their home in town in Saskatchewan to a teacher who paid the $300 a year taxes as rent.
> 
> ...


Sometimes sags I find myself wondering how old you are. Would you care to tell me?

Does anyone else here know the answer to my question? Has sags perhaps dropped that piece of info somewhere along the line? It would help me understand some of the responses s/he has written sometimes.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> LOL, you really do like hyperbole AltaRed.
> 
> Here is a slum property for $47k near the University of Winnipeg. I guess a 'slum landlord' could rent it to a student if they could find a student who was willing to live in such a 'slum'. https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/20489127/1-bedroom-condo-9-350-quappelle-ave-winnipeg-central
> 
> ...


Those 2 shoe boxes obviously are not 'slum' and might be cash flow positive net of those condo fees plus property taxes, in a city like Winnipeg. https://www.rentjungle.com/average-rent-in-winnipeg-rent-trends/ Perhaps $900-1000 rent. Can't expect much, if any, capital appreciation though I would expect though I haven't looked at housing trends

Not remotely doable in Kelowna area for example where anything under $100k would be a single wide mobile home on a leased lot.

The primary challenge I was having with JAG is I don't believe the 20-30% discounts that JAG seems to have so much expertise finding. Even simpletons don't give away product that far below market unless there are fundamental problems with the unit, either location, condition, building structural, title, etc.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Just a guy I clicked on your first link and got an ad for something called land rush. Couldn't make out what it was because it was half blocked by a box labelled OZ BUZZ which does not have a red X on it. I would like to see what you are talking about, how do you get rid of the box?

Or you could just tell us where you are finding these bargains. As a long time real estate investor (started 1974) now retired, you have got my curiosity.

Later. They mention a list of properties under $100,000 that you can only get by attending their seminar. They also speak of investing in the US especially Arizona. So, is that the secret? Buy in the US? I can well believe there are opportunities there that are cheaper than anything in Canada.

Incidentally I have gotten over thinking low price means a good deal. A good deal has positive cash flow and the best cash flow is not from the cheapest, or the most expensive properties but the low middle, bread and butter rentals.

Possibly the best low cost money maker was a guy in the southern US who was buying mobile homes for under $5000 fixing them up and selling them for $10,000 - $15,000 on contract at 12.75% interest. Someone asked him why anyone would pay him $10,000 for a $5,000 mobile home and he said "there are lots of people who will never save up $5,000 in their lives, who can pay $400 a month forever".


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Altared, why would you sell a place that costs those prices and rents for 1000/month? Landlording isn’t about capital appreciation it’s about cash flow. People like me want a constant income every month. I can pass them on to the next generation and they continue to have a constant cash flow. Why sell and give the government capital gains unless you need the money to buy more?

As for there not being any in Kelowna, you forgot to add the word “today”. There have been properties there under 100k that aren’t slums or trailers. Yes, they are less common than say Winnipeg, but that doesn’t mean they never exist. 

Not sure why you’re so set on crying sour grapes constantly, but eventually you May wake up and admit your version of reality isn’t the same as reality. You’re starting to sound more like sags than the old rational altared.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Just a guy I clicked on your first link and got an ad for something called land rush. Couldn't make out what it was because it was half blocked by a box labelled OZ BUZZ which does not have a red X on it. I would like to see what you are talking about, how do you get rid of the box?
> 
> Or you could just tell us where you are finding these bargains. As a long time real estate investor (started 1974) now retired, you have got my curiosity.
> 
> ...


That landrush conference is a conference put on by Ozzie Jurock a B.C. realtor. I don’t recommend anything about the conference, I just saw that one of the speakers was presenting a seminar entitled 100 properties under 100k. It’s listed along the right side of the ad for the conference. They got the listing right off mls and I gather it’s listing from across western Canada (as that’s the area Ozzie always talks about). 

As for where I find the listings, I’ve got realtors who send me listings that match my criteria as they hit mls. Every day I get a bunch of emails with new potential properties. I cast a fairly wide net of major cities across Canada. LTA just posted a couple of nice listing in Winnipeg a few posts ago, those are fairly typical of what I look for. Western and central Canada is very interesting these days. 

I agree on price, I don’t go for the lowest priced properties (my criteria is usually something like. 3 beds under 150k) I then watch the properties as I’m not in a hurry. For example, a 3 bed may come on the market close to 150k and sit...3 months later they drop the price down to 120k, in six months it’s down to 100k then I may look at it. I’ll give the property manager a call, pull a sales history on the property and comparable ones...Maybe make an offer, maybe wait more. It all depends on neighbourhoods, local rents, amenities, size, fees, etc. If it’s still sitting, I may throw in a bid. I may get the place, I may not. I don’t need the property, they need to sell, I’ve got cash, the market has been pretty dead, I offer unconditional offers, they have to worry if others can get financing, the advantages are all mine. 

My purchases aren’t usually instant. I’ve got probably 20-30 that I watch at any given time, patience is key. The one my son just bought has been on the market for 150 days and I’ve been watching it for most of it. I think it initially was listed for 115k or more, it was a foreclosure, but it was owned not a rental (so the interior is very nice). He made an initial offer a while ago, but then someone else made an offer just before him...the deal fell through, so we offered 10k less than the initial offer and wound up getting it for 5k less than we initially offered (70k) because the realtor had lost our offer. It was a great deal, a block off a trendy street he’s quite excited and it’s only a rental for him, unless he decides to move in with friends, but right now he wants to rent it. It should appraise at at least 100k, with an 80% LTV mortgage, he’ll get my money back out.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

So, you still won't tell where they are. That is ok. Evidently you don't care where they are. You have some method of long distance property management and it doesn't matter how far away from you. I would love to know your method of managing rentals by remote control. That is why I got out of rentals, I got fed up with dealing with tenants and could not find anyone I could trust or who would even listen. If I could solve the management problem I might go out and buy a few.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I don’t disclose too much personal information because I like my privacy. I’ve seen to many determined people hunt down tidbits to try and reveal identities on the internet. When I started here even there were people trying to tie me to several other people. 

Also, I tend to buy in bunches, I’ve been averaging over 5 properties a year for the last few years and this past year I got 8 (if we include my son’s) so they aren’t all in one place...though that may make things easier, I’m not sure 8 places that match my criteria would show up in one city these days. Remember, I’m not trying to buy the cheapest places, I want quality stuff, not slums. I don’t own a place I would live in or have my kids live in. I will say they aren’t in gta or gva. I have been looking at a website that sells private islands, but they are also across Canada. Not sure what I’d do with an island, can also pick those up for under 100k and it would be kind of cool to own an island. 

I’ve said it before, I invest in people. I helped set up several property management companies and contractors across the country. I own a marketing company as well, so setting up a business is something we do everyday. I usually didn’t charge them much if anything, and I didn’t ask for ownership in their company, I was investing in them. Because I helped them set up, and provide them with a significant amount of work, they tend to treat me well. This wasn’t an overnight process, but I’ve been at this for decades. I’ve been setting up systems since I started. I’ve got standard and procedures for everything. Colour of paint, flooring, baseboards, cupboards, lights, you name it it’s all standard. The stores all know the company name because we buy in bulk. 

Every couple of years we make revisions and phase in the new stuff with turnover. It’s almost turnkey at this point. Only own one or two, you have to do the work yourself, when you own a lot, you’d better have systems in place or you’ll go broke.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> Altared, why would you sell a place that costs those prices and rents for 1000/month? Landlording isn’t about capital appreciation it’s about cash flow. People like me want a constant income every month. I can pass them on to the next generation and they continue to have a constant cash flow. Why sell and give the government capital gains unless you need the money to buy more?


No one that I would pass assets on too is remotely interested in being a landlord so that is not relevant. It is eventually the same for almost everyone who doesn't go public with an IPO, so everything is 'sold' at some point. But that is neither here nor there because I agree positive cash flow is essential. We will simply have to agree to disagree and move on. We've beat this to death.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Here is a slum property for $47k near the University of Winnipeg. I guess a 'slum landlord' could rent it to a student if they could find a student who was willing to live in such a 'slum'. https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/20489127/1-bedroom-condo-9-350-quappelle-ave-winnipeg-central
> 
> Or how about this one. https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/20219777/2-bedroom-condo-11-722-maryland-st-winnipeg-west-end Think some 'slum landlord' could rent it to someone willing to live in such a 'slum'?


Those two places are totally fine providing you don't walk around in those areas at night.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Sometimes sags I find myself wondering how old you are. Would you care to tell me?
> 
> Does anyone else here know the answer to my question? Has sags perhaps dropped that piece of info somewhere along the line? It would help me understand some of the responses s/he has written sometimes.


Old enough to have seen all the real estate scams and learning that nobody gives their property away for less than it is worth.

The Winnipeg property you link to is in a building with past sales.

In 2016 a unit sold for $80,000. In 2018 a unit sold for $60,000. Today a unit is advertised for $47,000.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Actually banks can do it all the time...you see there’s something called CMHC. a bank is required to try and sell a foreclosure for as much as they can, so the initial listing is high. However, if the property doesn’t sell quickly they drop the price, as they don’t want inventory on the books. If it sits long enough the bank takes whatever it can get. 

Then CMHC comes along and pays them the difference between what they were owed and what they sold the property for, so the bank gets all its money, and expenses back. They don’t lose, so they really don’t care what a place sells for as long as they can proved they tried to get the best price possible. 

Another example would be an estate sale...kid inherit a property from their parents, don’t want to be landlords (or even second homeowners) and just want the cash as soon as possible...they dump the property at the first offer and make off with more money than they had before. I see that all the time, but then again I’m not the armchair expert. 

As to your posting about the Winnipeg property, I’m not sure what you we’re trying to say as the property obviously is selling for less than it was worth in 2016 and 2018...if they want to sell it, I’m guessing that particular unit sold for more the last time it sold.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Standard real estate scam jargon......

_Inherited homes where the kids are in such a hurry they will sell for less. _

One problem with that theory is there is no rush. A property in a will requires probate and that will take months or years to complete. Lots of time to sell a property.

_CMHC sells for a loss. _

No they don't. They have a fiduciary duty to sell the property for market value or they can't collect the outstanding balance from the owner.

Another one is that _the owner won a lottery and doesn't care about the price._ Balls......even wealthy people care about the price.

These are all old news and often used in the get rich from real estate scams.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

How about financing all these units. 

Banks require sufficient non rental income to service the mortgage debts. Where does that money come from if all you do is rent units ?


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

The last(?) property I bought was in an estate. Our realtor indicated they would probably take less than my initial proposed counter (yes, some realtors actually work 'for' you) as they just wanted it sold. But markets weren't crazy competitive there at the time either. Sure enough they accepted the lower offer without even countering.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

sags said:


> How about financing all these units.
> 
> Banks require sufficient non rental income to service the mortgage debts. Where does that money come from if all you do is rent units ?


For a guy who doesn’t even own a house, you are quite the “expert”. 

Banks take into consideration cash flow on rental units. Usually they want a multiplier of 1.1 to 1.25. You buy a place for 50k that has a lease for $1000/month and you’ll get a mortgage in the 75-80% LTV unless there are unusually large condo fees or something else eating up the cash flow. 

Also, when you get into business loans as opposed to residential loans (which usually happens when you own more than 5 or 10 properties) the rules are completely different. 

There are also things call “exemptions” for high net worth people. Do you really think people who own 1000’s of units have personal income to cover them?

Also, when the appraisals come in higher, there is equity in these buildings at least on paper.

Maybe mortgageuw can chime in to explain reality as opposed to your made up facts.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> The last(?) property I bought was in an estate. Our realtor indicated they would probably take less than my initial proposed counter (yes, some realtors actually work 'for' you) as they just wanted it sold. But markets weren't crazy competitive there at the time either. Sure enough they accepted the lower offer without even countering.


Sure there are 'discounts' to prevailing market prices to move a property sooner than it would otherwise. But silly to believe there are 20-30% discounts. There is a fundamental problem with the property to be 'deep discounted'. There are always situations where someone wants to move a property within 30 days of listing. Estate, divorce, job transfer, incapacitation, etc, etc. Unless the market is totally dead, there are ALWAYS buyers out there looking for deals, including realtors who, with or without private equity, will buy to simply re-list the property hoping to make 5-10% on a 60-90 day flip.

Our current house was obtained competitively (somewhat below market) because the owners had already had it on the market the year before (2011) at a non-competitive price and it didn't sell. They had since moved to the coast that summer due to a job transfer and had left their 18 yr old in the house to finish high school. It was re-listed competitively spring of 2012 at a price 13.416% below that of 2011, and we knew the seller was motivated to have a closing date in July. At the time of our offer, there had been one other offer on the property conditional on the sale of their existing property, and that fell through the week before. Our offer had no such condition. So how much below market did we get it for? Based on comps done by our realtor, somewhere between 5-8%. Can't expect anything more than that, given the opportunity for flips in the market.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

JAG is right. There are bargains and people who will take a low ball offer. You have to kiss a lot of frogs to find the princess though.
Most people shopping for a property want it in nice move in condition. If it is painted a weird color or is dirty or cosmetically unappealling, it can be skipped over by many buyers. After it sits a while the sellers may get desperate and accept a very low offer, esp if none have been forthcoming.
With estates, the decor is often old and the estate gets tired of paying utilities, insurance, inpections, especially if inheritors are out of town. 
With bank owned properties, they do often go for less than market. The bank has to pay for inspections, utilities, winterizing etc. Many buyers are leery because the property is sold as is and some are hesitant because not sure if the previous owners sabotaged the property. After the property sits for a while, how do you determine what the value really is. It is what someone is willing to pay. If no offers, no one is willing to pay that price. CMHC knows this and will pay out. Interest continues to accrue and that is a big cost.
As far as financing, no you do not need other income. Maybe for your first or second rental, but beyond that, you provide the bank with a rental worksheet showing your properties, costs, rents, vacancy allowance, and if cash flow is equal to 1.xx times costs then easy to approve. Happens all the time especially with experienced landlords.
Although I haven't landlorded because my spouse is totally opposed and my career took me across the country, I always managed to buy houses well under market, even in hot markets. Look for closets that are half empty and tools missing from garage or similiar for divorce situations.
Look for empty houses that have been listed a while - transfers. Or houses with some crude handiman work, or bad paint jobs that deter buyers. Easy and cheap to fix. Or for estates, or bank repos, long listings etc.
Obviously I was looking at higher priced houses than JAG. I sometimes made a number of offers before someone bit but 20-30% under comparable market was common and was always cheap to refresh with paint and a little elbow grease.
Sometimes the best deals are properties that were over priced to begin with. Because of this, they sit too long. By the time the price drops to market price, buyers are wondering why it was listed so long and think something must be wrong so they avoid it. The sellers get desperate at some point if they are in a need to sell situation( already bought another house etc) and will accept a low ball.
Of course many offers get rejected but it is a patience and numbers game.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The costs required to bring a property needing some TLC has to be factored into the buying price. IOW, buying a $500k property at a 20% discount is not a 20% discount if $50k has to be spent to bring it to 'move in' quality. That factor was always included in our assessment of buying price. Flippers know that game as well.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

True, but the cost for you to bring a property up to par is probably a lot different that the cost for someone like me. I can replace an entire interior for 5k in materials. That is a down to bare walls, full replacement. Most places don’t require that much work. Labour is extra of course.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

sags said:


> Old enough to have seen all the real estate scams and learning that nobody gives their property away for less than it is worth.


I started investing in rental real estate in 1974 and have bought properties for less than they were worth. One was a duplex being sold by a military man who was being transferred. The property was not listed or advertised, I happened to find out about it and he offered it to me for $60,000 which was what he paid for it 5 years earlier.

I agreed to his price and terms (all cash, close by the end of the month). Paid him with $45,000 I had in the bank plus $15,000 from a credit card advance. This meant I had no mortgage.

I immediately applied for a mortgage but since I did this after I bought and took possession, the mortgage was based on the appraisal and not the selling price. It appraised at $89,000 so I got a mortgage of $66,750.

This meant I got the property for nothing and got back $6,750 change.

The rent paid all the expenses plus the mortgage payment and left me $500 to the good every month.

In other words I had no down payment, no payments and got $6,750 cash plus $500 a month.

Do you wonder why I love real estate?

PS I ask Just a Guy to confirm that this is possible.

PPS The $45,000 came from refinancing another property so that was borrowed money too. I refinanced because the mortgage term was up, and increased the amount as the value of the property had gone up with the object of using the money to buy more property. So you could say I had none of my own money in the deal at any time. This was not the first 'no money down' deal I did, but that is another story.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Just a Guy said:


> True, but the cost for you to bring a property up to par is probably a lot different that the cost for someone like me. I can replace an entire interior for 5k in materials. That is a down to bare walls, full replacement. Most places don’t require that much work. Labour is extra of course.


And this is exactly why my neighbor does it! Since he's in the business of renovating his costs and time are far lower than those that need to hire people to do it.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Rusty, that’s basically my model.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

cainvest said:


> And this is exactly why my neighbor does it! Since he's in the business of renovating his costs and time are far lower than those that need to hire people to do it.


And why there is a competitive market price (bottom) among renovators and flippers who will bid against each other for properties. That limits the discount from move-in comparables.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

The market had been so overpriced for so long, many investors have stopped looking for properties. There are a lot of people I know who’ve just been collecting rents. 

Flipping is a lot more risk, it depends on the market conditions. Right now, flippers are in trouble since the market is almost dead. A year ago, things were fine.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I am thinking of getting into the business but figure why start out small. Go big or stay on the porch with the mutts.

So I am going to the bank and getting a $2,000,000 loan to buy 40 - $50,000 units. If I make $200 profit per unit a month, I make $12,000 a month profit.

The banks will have 40 units as collateral so they should be quite happy. 

Maybe I will get an extra $10,000 from the bank for each unit and buy myself a Lamborghini.

I can't wait to get started.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

You’ve never started anything in your life, why pretend to be interested now? I’m betting you wouldn’t even go into the bank to see if it was even possible...

It doesn’t matter that many people on this board have done something similar, people like you can’t, and never will, so it’s completely impossible for YOU.

This world has plenty of self made millionaires, but it also has way more self made failures.keep spending my earned tax dollars comrade.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If you could provide the names of some of the "friendly" banks and appraisers that you use that would be great. I can apply online.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Well, there is TD, CIBC, Rbc, scotia bank, BMO, national bank, etc. They send out their own appraisers. Probably never heard of any of them I’m sure...they’re are part of a secret cabal, only available to people who want to make money, not those looking for government handouts.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

Rental property is not for everyone. I had a go with a $500k nice property that generated a good monthly rental. It was nothing but a headache and we had a few different property managers, as well as an assortment of tenants. By the time I paid property tax, insurance, maintenance, management etc, we cleared a few thousand a year but figured it would appreciate in value. Most of the tenants drove it like a rental and 7 yrs later I took it back, did all the repairs, painting, yardwork etc myself, except for paying $2400 to get the hardwood floor refinished and sold it for $440k, less real estate fees and lawyers, lol. I know a couple of people personally who do well with rentals but we laughingly refer to it as "slumlording", as they buy run down places and do the bare minimum in maintenance and just collect rent. I had enough of taxes, insurance, maintenance, repairs etc with the rental business, so decided to do a few REIT's instead and see how that worked. I invested $125k in 3 of them and the monthly "rent" from them is $640. If I decide I want out, I can sell them any time the markets are open and today they are worth $186k. The realtor fees will be $30.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I'm a REIT guys as well....I'd be in jail if I had to deal with renters.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Knowing the amount of money that there is in real estate, I often wonder what happens to all that money when it comes to reits. The payouts are minuscule when I think of the money involved. 

A lot of fraud happens in real estate because of the money involved...I don’t really trust the managers of reits.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I believe in diversification because I am not so great at one thing that I can make a killing. My parents have been in real estate before I was born and have never invested in anything they can't see, just their preference. For real estate we have all been pretty hands on hence will never make it big like JAG. We have system that works for smaller portfolios but haven't figured out how to do it out of town even though I have a property out of town that we would like to rent. 

I was taught all about picking tenants since a I was in elementary. I would be expected to answer the phone (no cells) right after school, ask questions to pre screen, take some notes about them and set an appointment. I would say picking tenants is what I am great in. However, it also means I have had to weather a month or so being unrented because I didn't like the potential tenants. I would have to sit in family meetings when my older siblings would talk about each of the prospective tenants and the pros and cons, and we weighed in our opinions while my dad made the final decision. It was one of the really valuable skills I learned that I take in life, reading people understanding their motivation, which ones would match our goals (a good long term renter that pays and doesn't give us trouble). Critically weighing out different factors. 

I remember we had a choice of a renter who was young doctor and her boyfriend was another professional verse a truck driver with his wife and baby. We all thought the doctor couple was the best candidate (no problems paying rent). My dad said nope, the truck driver. Why? The doctor and boyfriend wouldn't stay long because it wouldn't be long where they saved enough for a down payment before they moved. They would also have a high probability of not wanting to get their hands dirty and do some of the maintenance in the house as they are used to using they brains for work not always their hands. Few other clues my dad gave us including the type of car they drove, how they were groomed, etc. The truck driver was steady with his job, they would want a stable home for their child who would probably want to go to the neighboring school in a couple of years, they are more used to being DIY as a more hand on family, it would probably take them longer with a young child to save up for a down payment. The family stayed with us until they saved enough and their kid was moving to jr high, so almost 10 years. 

Rentals are more difficult now, but still doable. Just like another else, one needs to develop a system. We made a choice to either build up our rentals or focus on our careers, but with the amount of travelling and work we did, we never managed a rental system. I can totally see how its done but you need to put some work into it, and initially the curve is higher. I was born into from my family, so rentals just make sense. My spouse, not so much, their family attempted rentals, and were not great at it. It had to do with their personalities. Not everyone is great at everything.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

sags said:


> If you could provide the names of some of the "friendly" banks and appraisers that you use that would be great. I can apply online.


Dealing with a good mortgage broker opened up a lot of opportunities for me. I never got much sense out of banks, or money either. Somehow the mortgage broker found loan officers who were willing to do business.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> For a guy who doesn’t even own a house, you are quite the “expert”.
> 
> Banks take into consideration cash flow on rental units. Usually they want a multiplier of 1.1 to 1.25. You buy a place for 50k that has a lease for $1000/month and you’ll get a mortgage in the 75-80% LTV unless there are unusually large condo fees or something else eating up the cash flow.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the shout out. So yes, I can confirm that commercial lending is a different ball game than residential. You are qualified based on the income the property can generate, not personal income.

Sags, I know you are not a believer of what JAG's operation, but I can tell you that there are MANY investors such as JAG out there. You may not understand it and that's ok. I just don't get all the negativity though. If you could understand how an investor can borrow millions of dollars on a highrise, you should understand how JAG borrows money for his niche of business.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Eder said:


> I'm a REIT guys as well....I'd be in jail if I had to deal with renters.


This reason made me laugh a lot :encouragement:
Good to know one's limits :chuncky:


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Just a Guy said:


> Knowing the amount of money that there is in real estate, I often wonder what happens to all that money when it comes to reits. The payouts are minuscule when I think of the money involved.
> 
> A lot of fraud happens in real estate because of the money involved...I don’t really trust the managers of reits.


I've wondered about this myself. When REITS came out I thought they would be the ideal investment. Typical cap rates back then were 10% to 12%, they are lower now but still much higher than bank interest. Throw in the advantage of leverage from borrowing money at 5% and investing it at 12%, plus appreciation over time and a REIT should have a terrific return. Somehow it never worked out that way.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Most likely everyone involved in the REIT gets to wet their beak a bit till returns to unit holders whither.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Mortgage u/w said:


> Thanks for the shout out. So yes, I can confirm that commercial lending is a different ball game than residential. You are qualified based on the income the property can generate, not personal income.
> 
> Sags, I know you are not a believer of what JAG's operation, but I can tell you that there are MANY investors such as JAG out there. You may not understand it and that's ok. I just don't get all the negativity though. If you could understand how an investor can borrow millions of dollars on a highrise, you should understand how JAG borrows money for his niche of business.


Are you are stating the banks lend 100% financing based solely on the rental income of the property ?


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

sags said:


> Are you are stating the banks lend 100% financing based solely on the rental income of the property ?


In commercial lending, its one of the primary factors.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

100% financing could only be possible with private lenders - and even at that, you would need to be a very experienced investor for a very lucrative property.

The 100% financing JAG is mentionning goes as follows:
- purchase below market value
- finance up to 80% of purchase price
- freshen up the place and secure a tenant with current market rent
- refinance property taking into consideration new income and condition which most definately increases the value
- more often than not, you are capable of securing a new mortgage as large as your original purchase price


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I know how JAG says it works. I see too many false assumptions in the plan to believe that it does work.

But you are free to believe anything you want.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

sags said:


> I know how JAG says it works. I see too many false assumptions in the plan to believe that it does work.
> 
> But you are free to believe anything you want.


Its not a question of believing. Its a question of knowing and understanding it.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Sags doesn’t believe in fact, just what they make up.

Sadly in their world, they remain broke and want my money to support them. Like children who never grow up. Ironically, they could be living in my basement metaphorically, since they are renters.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

I could understand the skeptism since its a business that most people are not accustomed to hearing about. The media only talks about residential financing, CMHC, OSFI, B20 etc. None of that is relevant to commercial lending so its normal that most individuals will not understand it. Its a whole other world that mainly caters to sophisticated investors. Its not a space where part-time investors play. Sure, sometimes you lose - like every other business out there....but when you win, you need to know how to capitalize on it.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Funny thing I’ve learned lately, it’s much harder, at my stage, to get a single mortgage. When I walk in and say “”I’ve got X number of clear title properties that need financing” the banks almost trip over each other trying to get the business.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Well lets be honest now. If you walk into a bank and ask for a residential mortgage on a non-owner occupied condo and you say you have 9 others, yes, its a problem.

Sit down with your commercial bank rep and say you need additional financing and you're a successful and proven client, then the red carpet should be rolled out. I don't know how many doors you hold JAG, but if you own 100 units for an 8 digit financing capacity, it shouldn't be too hard. In a such senario, I would recommend a bridge financing for the business as a whole which shouldn't be too difficult. In this senario, buy and hold is not ideal. I would assume at this point, you would move on to larger properties which are much more lucrative and easier to manage. 

If you own only 10 units which you plan on holding long term for cash flow and future income, the carpet may not be rolled out so easily and you will have to juggle some lenders to get the financing you need.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I’ve been looking for years for bigger units, the problem is they tend to start at 100k/door including bachelor suites. Why would I pay that when I can get a three bed for 25k less. The other, slight benefit, is I don’t have a lot of eggs in one basket. If a neighbourhood goes bad, and you have a building in that area, it’s hard to attract good tenants. Instead I’ve got places all over.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

sags said:


> I know how JAG says it works. I see too many false assumptions in the plan to believe that it does work.
> 
> But you are free to believe anything you want.


I dont see any issues with it. The financing part of it is pretty straightforward and I've seen variations of it used many times for a variety of RE strategies.
I used to question the possibility of getting decent rentals under 100K, but they are definitely out there (outside of Van and TO areas).


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

You guys sound a lot like this guy..........a blast from the past.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

So, one guy provides you with listings, a mortgage underwriter tells you how the banks operate, several people testify that they do it themselves and you can still manage to talk yourself into it being not possible.

Exactly what kind of research have you done into this? Perhaps look up the definition of “denier”.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Every 10 to 15 years a new set of real estate hucksters come along with the same old story. They end up bankrupt, in prison or doing something else.

The BS story is always basically the same. Tons of hype and zero evidence that it works.

Trump University...............LOL.

Congratulations JAG.........you are the Tom Vue of today.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

The difference is people like me are doing it, not selling you a system or seminar or book on the subject...I guess you missed that part. We make our money off of doing it, not off of books seminars, or late night infomercials. 

Who exactly are we ripping off?

BTW, you could easily confirm this happens if you walk into any bank and talk to someone.

At least your footer is true. The rest of your posts are out to lunch.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Commercial real estate mortgages are higher risk to lenders and demand higher interest rates and larger down payments.

The lenders also require a sizable amount of liquid capital held by the borrower on top of 25% or more down payments on each property mortgaged.

I would have thought a real estate guru and a mortgage broker would know these minor details.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Sags, You are no longer simply arguing/disagreeing with JAG. You are ridiculing him for no real reason. 
As a 'huckster' has he ever pm'd you or tried to part members from their money? No, he has explained (patiently, and many times) how he has been successful investing in RE rentals. If you don't believe him, fine. I suggest you just move on with that conclusion and stop being so lowbrow.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

And the original post by JAG is..........what ?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

But you are right OMO..........waste of time and people can figure it out for themselves.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Do you really believe that people who own towers in downtown Toronto have enough cash to cover expenses? Yes interest rates are higher, they start at prime and work up or down from there. 80% LTV is pretty standard, but it can fall to 65% of APPRAISED value, not purchase price. There is a difference. 

Also, who’s saying I don’t have large liquid assets, however when you start out with one or two properties at 50-75k, your assets don’t have to be that large.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

sags said:


> And the original post by JAG is..........what ?



An independent source saying that they found 100 properties listed for under 100k, never promoted the seminar, something stated multiple times. You seem to have missed all that.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

sags said:


> Commercial real estate mortgages are higher risk to lenders and demand higher interest rates and larger down payments.
> 
> The lenders also require a sizable amount of liquid capital held by the borrower on top of 25% or more down payments on each property mortgaged.
> 
> I would have thought a real estate guru and a mortgage broker would know these minor details.


It shows you know nothing about commercial real estate and lending. The interest rates are in fact lower than residential rates and down payments are dependant on credit worthiness. 

I question where you get your info from?


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> I’ve been looking for years for bigger units, the problem is they tend to start at 100k/door including bachelor suites. Why would I pay that when I can get a three bed for 25k less. The other, slight benefit, is I don’t have a lot of eggs in one basket. If a neighbourhood goes bad, and you have a building in that area, it’s hard to attract good tenants. Instead I’ve got places all over.



I could understand your strategy. Again, all depending the number of units you hold, you will be better off individually since you are fortunate enough to find cheap doors.

When I say bigger units, I'm talking 10+ multi-unit highrise buildings. If you can add some retail or office space in the building, even better. The commercial space in Canada is extremely hot right now. This includes multi-unit residential buildings which fall in the commercial category.

Cap rate is what your looking rather than a per door price. Buy with a low cap rate, increase it and cash out. Right now, 8% cap rate is very attaignable and considered very good for a mix-use property. Lots of buildings are being sold with cap rates as low as 3%. Not an issue since the price reflects that. What's critical here are the leases in place - are they below market value and how much can you increase them. The quicker you accomplish this, the quicker your value increases. I know at least 1 investor who cashed out close to $3million on a $12million property which he bought and sold 3 years later. Never stepped foot in the place.

But hey, to each their own. What works for one will not work for someone else. Risk tolerance and financial capacity impact investors in different ways.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Yeah, I’m a buy and hold type. I personally line 3 storey walkups. More than 10 doors, but less than 30. I’m not a fan of commercial because they can be vacant for a long time, especially in a down market. There are lots of people looking for residential places, only a relative few looking for commercial places. I’ve been doing this for decades, so I’m pretty stuck in my ways. Also why go for a 3% cap rate when I can get a 45k property which rents for $1000. 

My kids are just getting into the business, maybe they’ll take it to the next level, they’re still young and ambitious...I’m old and lazy.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Sure. If it works, by all means don't stop.
I'm just re-iterating what the market dictates right now. Problem with low cap rates is large DPs required. Safe to say its not for the inexperienced - such as sags.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Is there anyone other than sags who doesn't agree that you can make money in real estate? Just stop feeding the troll.

I'm not sure what you are referring to as commercial properties Just a Guy when you write, 'vacant for a long time' and 'relatively few looking for commercial places.' I think you may still be thinking like a landlord. I would not invest in a strip mall for example with a dozen small storefront tenants. I do agree those could be a problem for an owner/landlord.

When I talk about commercial properties other than my first foray into the field, I am referring to large properties like an entire office tower in downtown Toronto for example. After my first entry into commercial real estate which I described here earlier, I found a very interesting phenomenon took place. You become 'known'. It's like a different world exists out there and those in that world spread the word. You have money to invest.

Without going into great detail, I found that you can work your way up relatively quickly to participating in the buying and selling of major properties. I was only ever a 5-7.5% stakeholder in quite a few properties like an office tower on a Yonge St. corner, in downtown Toronto. But you are talking about a building with 100 tenants and with little vacancy at any time. Nor are you acting as a landlord obviously. In that world, there are 'finders' who do nothing other than find properties and get a finders fee when they bring it to the buyers. The property is never 'listed' for sale anywhere. It is all done through 'connections'. In that world, you really are swimming with the sharks though.

I met people who would as the saying goes, sell their grandmother to make a deal. That world is full of insincere, cutthroats of all kinds. But I also met some interesting people as well. Like an investor from Europe who told me he was in the pencil business. He owned the largest chain of office supply stores in Germany apparently. 

On a lighter note, some of the perks in that world can be great as well. Like a reserved parking spot I had for a year in that Yonge St. corner office tower's underground parking. Do you have any idea what a parking spot on Yonge street costs! Or a multi-unit warehouse building in San Diego I had a few percentage points in for a couple of years. I could write off a couple of visits a year as a business expense. Meanwhile I was there to go get a break from Toronto winter weather or enjoy some summer beach time.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I agree there are many, many ways to make money in real estate but, like the market, you have to find your investment personality or you’ll be fighting yourself. 

I know what you mean about the perks though. I own rentals near my kid’s school, saves a bundle on parking and they are closer than the parkade to boot.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Mortgage u/w said:


> It shows you know nothing about commercial real estate and lending. The interest rates are in fact lower than residential rates and down payments are dependant on credit worthiness.
> 
> I question where you get your info from?


https://www.ratehub.ca/commercial-mortgages

https://www.bdc.ca/en/articles-tool...ved-for-commercial-real-estate-financing.aspx


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> https://www.ratehub.ca/commercial-mortgages
> 
> https://www.bdc.ca/en/articles-tool...ved-for-commercial-real-estate-financing.aspx


Did you read the articles? You are reinforcing what JAG and Mortgage u/w are saying

Here's one section from each:



> For commercial mortgages, it can be difficult to compare rates as lending criteria are not typically advertised and terms and conditions can differ greatly. It is advisable to procure the services of a mortgage broker. A commercial mortgage broker usually deals with office, industrial, retail and rental apartment properties and can generally connect you to a number of lenders in the required area.
> A lender will assess the risk associated with the individual property.
> For example, a mixed property could be one with a storefront but with 2- 3 floors of residential property above. The risk of a property increases if the business area of a property is greater than the residential area (in square feet). Commercial properties are generally considered to be riskier as repayment is dependent on how well the business does.





> Investigate loan terms, not just rates
> When speaking with banks, look not only at their rates, but also their terms. These can sometimes be just as important to your bottom line.
> A key variable is the loan-to-value ratio— the portion of the property’s value that the bank will finance. Banks generally offer to finance 75% to 100% of the value of commercial real estate, depending on the building’s condition, resale potential and other factors. Any shortfall must usually come from the company’s working capital or the entrepreneur’s personal funds. A higher ratio means more money remains in your company in the near term to invest in growth or to cover cash flow shortages.


You have shown a bias against anything corporate or business favorable, including those who invest in it. Even when people who are in the industry (mortgage U/W) and JAGs say it can be done, you disagree. It's fair to say you don't understand, and have no desire to understand. There's nothing wrong with that. However, to bring random opinions that it must be a catch isn't helpful. You are right though, there is a catch in making money in these areas, one must take the time to educate themselves and learn as much as they can, otherwise they will loose there shirt. That apply though to anything except maybe GIC's and money markets. I totally get that the original links JAG sent were pretty lousy, but it's time to move on from that after 9 pages of posts. There is some good information in these posts if people stop their bickering and look at the information. 

I have found this interesting, as someone I know just bought a fully downtown office space in a MAJOR US city without spending their own money. Another family member I know is looking it commercial spaces too, and I may get in with them. Though I know very little, this person I trust with my life and would only take me in because we are family.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Well, if you read those links, there’s nothing about rates being higher, though BDC is kind of a lender of last resort, so they usually are higher. Also, those are guidelines not laws. Notice it says thing like 80% LTV (the “V” stands for value, which is determined by something called an appraisal, not purchase price). Try calling up a bank and actually talk to someone, oh wait, first you should probably own a property, then wake up from your imagination where people don’t actually make money like those you see in the mirror each day. 

Not sure why you frequent a financial forum...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

_A commercial mortgage is a loan taken out on commercial real estate (as opposed to residential) with the property as collateral. The borrower is generally a company or business as opposed to an individual and the business may be either a partnership, limited company or incorporated. Consequently, assessing credit history is more complicated with this type of mortgage.*You can also expect commercial mortgage rates to be significantly higher than residential rates due to the increased risk.*
_
Gee..........how difficult was that ?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Well, if you read those links, there’s nothing about rates being higher, though BDC is kind of a lender of last resort, so they usually are higher. Also, those are guidelines not laws. Notice it says thing like 80% LTV (the “V” stands for value, which is determined by something called an appraisal, not purchase price). Try calling up a bank and actually talk to someone, oh wait, first you should probably own a property, then wake up from your imagination where people don’t actually make money like those you see in the mirror each day.
> 
> Not sure why you frequent a financial forum...


But you claimed you obtained 100% financing of the appraised value.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

No I didn’t, I claimed to get 100% financing of the money I put in. Do you ever read past the first line of anything?

Also, “you can expect to pay” isn’t the same as “you will pay”. There are a number of factors in play, mostly revolving around your history and credit worthiness.


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## Earl (Apr 5, 2016)

None of those properties are anywhere close to where I live (the Golden Horseshoe), so I would need to waste hundreds in gas and motel costs when I needed to visit them. Also how do you even rent out a house in some small town or rural area? Are there even renters there? It's my impression most people who rent live in cities.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

It's amazing how many people can take one small item out of context and then proceed to hang their hat on it as an absolute.

For example, a few posts back, this line appears as a quote, "Commercial properties are generally considered to be riskier as repayment is dependent on how well the business does." Now, consider what that actually is talking about. It's saying if you get a mortgage on a store with a couple of apartments above it, the risk to the lender will depend on how well the store does in business. That makes sense for that kind of property. If the store goes out of business, you have a big hole in your rental income.

Now what if the property is 100 offices in an office building. Both are commercial properties but they are not the same. The 100 offices are highly unlikely to have any large percentage vacant at one time. That kind of commercial property is obviously different from the kind of property the quote is talking about. The quote when put in context makes sense but it does not apply to ALL commercial properties. Yet people will try to do just that. 'All commercial properties are higher risk and therefore have higher mortgage rates'. Absolutely false.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Maybe our area is different or maybe it is the TD bank branches here, but anytime a person wants a loan they apply through a loans officer.

The loans officer types the information into a computer and sends it off to Toronto for the underwriter approvals. They don't know if the loan will be accepted or not. 

We have in the past renewed mortgages through a "mobile mortgage rep" who came to our home, but all she does is collect information and submit it to Toronto.

How does a person "sit down" with the mortgage underwriter for an in depth discussion of the variables ?

As far as I know the underwriters aren't located in the local branches.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Earl said:


> None of those properties are anywhere close to where I live (the Golden Horseshoe), so I would need to waste hundreds in gas and motel costs when I needed to visit them. Also how do you even rent out a house in some small town or rural area? Are there even renters there? It's my impression most people who rent live in cities.


Earl, what makes sense in one area may not make sense in another area but that does not mean there is not something that does make sense in your area. It just means you need to find what will work for you in your area. You see the glass as half empty. When you do that, you close off any possibility of finding the half that is full, because you DO NOT LOOK for that half, you can't see it!

People rent houses everywhere, not just in cities. That statement you made about the opposite, simply shows you are not aware of it, not that it does not exist. I happen to live in a small town (3000 Pop.) that also happens to have a nearby satellite campus of a major Ontario university. Our little town has dozens of student rental houses. There are also plenty of other rental houses that are rented by 'ordinary' people with 'ordinary' jobs of all kinds. As far as I know, the owners are not renting to lose money.

In cities, the average percentage of owners is 64% vs. 82% in more rural areas. So that leaves 36% vs. 18% who rent. MORE rent in cities but that doesn't mean no one rents in small towns and rural areas. So if you wanted to have a rental property in a small town what does that tell you? That you need to find a small town like I live in where there is indeed a fairly strong rental market. But they do exist obviously if you LOOK for them.

My next door neighbour owns half a dozen student rental houses and he isn't doing it to lose money. Another house I know of was student rental until the landlord got tired of having to do repairs every year after the students left for the summer and changed to long term 'normal' rental. He had no problem getting a tenant. There are plenty of rental houses in my small town and I don't see any of them sitting empty for long.

You say such properties are not near you and you would need to "waste hundreds in gas and motel costs". On what do you base that statement? First, what constitutes "anywhere close". Where I am is probably around a 2 hour drive from where you are. There would be no need for 'hundreds' in gas and motel costs. I'm also sure there are places closer to you where a rental could be found. But you aren't LOOKING are you. You have already decided they don't exist. 

I have no interest in being a landlord but I don't say, 'no one can do this' or 'not in my area'. If I were interested in being a landlord I would do the research to determine what was possible in my area and I would listen to those who have done it anywhere.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

So would all these people you know sell their rental units for 75% of the market value ?

Would they be valued at less than $100,000 and rented for $1200 a month ?


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Congratulations Sags you win. You have soundly beaten us with your superior intellect and logic. I freely admit that YOU will NEVER make a single dollar in real estate investing. I can't say NO ONE will because I know that is not true, but I am confident that YOU won't.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Sags, again you don’t seem to be able to read. If you did, you’d notice I said you need a salesman (the local mortgage guy you talk to) to pitch it to the underwriters. You do not get to sit down with an underwriter, the mortgage guys are the ones who advocate on your behalf. 

Since you rent, I really question how you have any knowledge at all on the subject, the rules and procedures changes all the time and I’d bet you haven’t talked to a mortgage person in years at best. 

Next, no one said I’m buying properties from other successful landlords, if they were successful they probably aren’t selling (I don’t sell cash flow properties). However, that doesn’t mean everyone selling is a successful landlord. Many properties go into foreclosure for example, there are divorces, there are estate sales...all being sold by people who don’t want to be landlords. Try looking at mls sometime instead of your imagination, there are plenty of properties out there for sale under 100k in many major cities. 

Earl,

I challenge you to find any small town or city which doesn’t have rental places in it. Thought I don’t personally want to own in small towns, I know people who do it successfully. I know many rural landlords who rent to people like retired farmers. They are usually long term and quiet renters from what I’ve heard. 

As I said though, every town I’ve ever seen has some rental units in it. So it’s obviously possible and people are doing it. 

The hardest part of making money is getting over your own fears and doubts and actually trying it. People like sags are doomed to be poor forever unless someone else gives them money.


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## Earl (Apr 5, 2016)

I can imagine renting to students to be a special kind of hell. When they break everything in sight. They have no money you can sue them for, and good luck getting their parents to accept that their precious snowflake did any wrong. I can't remember if it was on this forum or a different one, but I was reading how someone was renting to students and he was saying how at the beginning of the semester, the students' parents would come and inspect the house to make sure everything was ***** and span, and demand that he fixed every minor thing. But when the student was moving out and he wanted to talk to the parents about damage the students caused, the parents were nowhere to be found. Even if you find good renters, they'll be gone in a semester or two. I am happy to invest in REITs. I have 3 of them: rei.un, hr.un, and nwh.un. Riocan and HR invest in malls, plazas and other commercial buildings, those will always exist. NWH invests in nursing homes, and I'm sure you know our population is getting older. I earn a solid 6% distribution on my money, plus capital appreciation, and I don't have to fix leaky toilets or patch holes in drywall.  I also don't risk getting sued if some idiot slips and falls on my property. I never have to deal with the LTB if someone owes me rent. I just sit home and collect my money for doing nothing. I wouldn't mind renting to professionals with high paying jobs, eg renting out a condo in toronto, but those types of properties are not cash flow positive unless you bought it 15+ years ago before the huge bull market. The type of people who rent in towns where you can buy a house for under 100k are probably uneducated, perpetually unemployed, with drinking or drug problems, who I'm sure would be hell to deal with. If you sold every one of your rental properties today, paid off all your debt, and put all your remaining money into several REITs paying an average of 6%, how would your monthly cash flow compare to what you get from your rental properties?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Earl, you make 6% returns, technically I make infinite return on investment because I don’t have any of my own money in my rentals. Even still, I’m well into double digit returns and I don’t have anywhere near the problems you seem to fear. I’ve found there’s a 90-10-10 (90% of tenants are fine, 10 % are a problem and 10% of those are really bad). Of course, you only ever hear about the bad ones. I don’t get midnight calls to fix toilets because tenants sleep then just like everyone else. If there is a problem, you call a plumber and chances are charge it back to the tenants. 

Also, real estate has made me multiple millions, how are your REITs doing in comparison? How much have you invested to get there? I’ve put in none of my own money because of leverage and financing. That’s just equity, I also have monthly cash flow. 

As with most of your assumptions, you can get nice places in transit areas of some cities for under 100k. I’m always amazed at how many “experts” there are who’ve never done anything and have no real experience. Do you avoid going to the doctor because anyone who visits one has either died or will die sometime in the future?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Earl said:


> I can imagine renting to students to be a special kind of hell. When they break everything in sight. They have no money you can sue them for, and good luck getting their parents to accept that their precious snowflake did any wrong. I can't remember if it was on this forum or a different one, but I was reading how someone was renting to students and he was saying how at the beginning of the semester, the students' parents would come and inspect the house to make sure everything was ***** and span, and demand that he fixed every minor thing. But when the student was moving out and he wanted to talk to the parents about damage the students caused, the parents were nowhere to be found. Even if you find good renters, they'll be gone in a semester or two.


I have rented to 3 or 4 sets of students. I haven't ever had any problems. They will leave after a year or two, maybe three if I am lucky. However, if they don't have numbers to show they can make rent (most don't because they are on student loans or parents are helping), I will often ask the parents to co sign the lease (I do the same credit check etc on the parents). What I have found is parents who are willing to cosign the lease for their kids, shows that they are confident that they raised their kids in a responsible manner. Though I do find that some of students who are looking for their first place, need a lot of hand holding and some lack common sense, and think I am their parent. They were nice enough though, and took care of the place. 




> I wouldn't mind renting to professionals with high paying jobs, eg renting out a condo in toronto, but those types of properties are not cash flow positive unless you bought it 15+ years ago before the huge bull market. The type of people who rent in towns where you can buy a house for under 100k are probably uneducated, perpetually unemployed, with drinking or drug problems, who I'm sure would be hell to deal with.


Don't know about Toronto, My dad preferred hard working, non university education responsible people. Employed was always must, but in my other post he would rather have a tradesman or a truck driver over a doctor.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Earl said:


> I can imagine renting to students to be a special kind of hell. When they break everything in sight. They have no money you can sue them for, and good luck getting their parents to accept that their precious snowflake did any wrong. I can't remember if it was on this forum or a different one, but I was reading how someone was renting to students and he was saying how at the beginning of the semester, the students' parents would come and inspect the house to make sure everything was ***** and span, and demand that he fixed every minor thing. But when the student was moving out and he wanted to talk to the parents about damage the students caused, the parents were nowhere to be found. Even if you find good renters, they'll be gone in a semester or two. I am happy to invest in REITs. I have 3 of them: rei.un, hr.un, and nwh.un. Riocan and HR invest in malls, plazas and other commercial buildings, those will always exist. NWH invests in nursing homes, and I'm sure you know our population is getting older. I earn a solid 6% distribution on my money, plus capital appreciation, and I don't have to fix leaky toilets or patch holes in drywall.  I also don't risk getting sued if some idiot slips and falls on my property. I never have to deal with the LTB if someone owes me rent. I just sit home and collect my money for doing nothing. I wouldn't mind renting to professionals with high paying jobs, eg renting out a condo in toronto, but those types of properties are not cash flow positive unless you bought it 15+ years ago before the huge bull market. The type of people who rent in towns where you can buy a house for under 100k are probably uneducated, perpetually unemployed, with drinking or drug problems, who I'm sure would be hell to deal with. If you sold every one of your rental properties today, paid off all your debt, and put all your remaining money into several REITs paying an average of 6%, how would your monthly cash flow compare to what you get from your rental properties?


Don't forget about special assessments. I would think inexpensive condos would be at high risk for major extra maintenance costs.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

I'm curious as to what insurance premiums are for housing/residential rentals? Or are fire sprinklers required?


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

sags said:


> Don't forget about special assessments. I would think inexpensive condos would be at high risk for major extra maintenance costs.


Certain apartments might be cheaper because of an announced special assessment, yes. But it would be clear from up front, or clear in the condo board minutes. Someone versed in the industry and construction methods can usually tell which designs are a problem. Having lots of properties means they're also familiar with the engineering firms that are hired to do reserve studies and inspections. A quick call can usually get a feel for which buildings are a problem and which are not.

Most risks are manageable. They require research and work.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> Don't know about Toronto, My dad preferred hard working, non university education responsible people. Employed was always must, but in my other post he would rather have a tradesman or a truck driver over a doctor.


I would agree. Blue collar are probably better than young university types. The latter are more likely to be temporary situations where they get a new job somewhere else, save up for a place of their own, get married/shack up/etc. Also less likely to get their hands dirty to fix something.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Owner insurance is relatively cheap. About $150 for an apartment and $500 for a house for the year. Of course, different provinces have different rates, and tenants are expected to have their own insurance as do condos. Some places can have three levels of insurance on them. 

As for sprinklers, that’s usually determined not buy insurance but rather the fire inspector. It’s also usually grandfathered in unless there is a major upgrade due to something like a fire rebuild (where you need to bring the building up to modern building codes).


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Maintenance is important in any building. If you don’t do regular maintenance, you’ll eventually be hit with the expense. It’s the same as people who buy houses, but don’t put aside money every month to put on the new roof every 20 years, you’ll be hit with a large bill (same as a special assessment). If you budget and save every month, spend wisely, you’ll never get a special assessment. 

There is, however, the nice part that, with a foreclosure, the banks usually wind up paying the special assessment as part of the sale. You get free upgrades while people complain.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It isn't the same.

A homeowner has control over all decisions on the maintenance and how to pay for it.

Condo owners elect boards to make the decisions and all condo owners have their own interests.

If a condo owner plans on selling in a few years, they have no interest in higher monthly condo fees. Some people simply don't have the extra money. 

Others may want the board to pay for luxurious garden areas or more expensive doors or windows.

My sister in law was President of her condo board for awhile and said it is nothing but constant complaints and headaches about the monthly fees.

It is such a hassle that some condo boards choose to keep monthly fees low and assign special assessments when they have big projects to pay for.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

You’re right, there are always complaints about fees. You know why homeowners don’t complain? They don’t save the money monthly. You should hear a homeowner complain when they need to pay for that new roof at 20-50k. Highway robbery they scream!!! Funny thing is, they tend to act surprised that there are major expenses when it comes to owning real estate...

Sure they can ignore their leaky roof, drafts windows, but their property values will drop as well because they didn’t budget. You keep a condo in good shape, it increases in value, you go cheap and your biggest investment drops. 

Which my properties, I always have reps on the board. I have them explain why our fees are what they are and how it’s not “free” money, so don’t call us to spend $75 to replace your doorknob when you can do it yourself for $10. 

If you take time to educate people as to why you are charging what you are, most people agree to the costs, better than a special assessment later.

If you have a lousy board, you’ll wind up with a lousy building...same with houses, there’s a reason why we have slum landlords. Fortunately, with my properties, I make sure they are run properly and professionally.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> Owner insurance is relatively cheap. About $150 for an apartment and *$500 for a house for the year.* Of course, different provinces have different rates, and tenants are expected to have their own insurance as do condos. Some places can have three levels of insurance on them.


 ... for a "rental"? Or is it because the insurance company doesn't know it's a rental?



> As for sprinklers, that’s usually determined not buy insurance but rather the fire inspector. It’s also usually grandfathered in unless there is a major upgrade due to something like a fire rebuild (where you need to bring the building up to modern building codes).


... I read in somewhere rentals-in-the-future will require complying with such codes. I can't see the practicality of this (never mind the prohibiting costs) given the ghost hotels phenomenon sprouting, barring standalone housing rentals.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I was a condo board President some years ago when my wife and I tried condo living. It was a real eye opener I have to say.

As the saying goes, "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t …”
… please all the people all of the time." (John Lydgate)

As for, "_It is such a hassle that some condo boards choose to keep monthly fees low and assign special assessments when they have big projects to pay for."_, I don't know if the regulations governing condos allow that in any province.

In my own experience, the government regulations lay down how much a condo corporation must set aside for their 'reserve fund'. Also in my own experience, each board member was required to have personal liability insurance (paid for by the condo corporation) to cover them against being sued by condo owners. If a board KNOWINGLY allowed their reserve fund to drop too low and then had to have a special assessment to say, replace the roof, it isn't hard to imagine someone like a 'poor old widow' who can't afford the special assessment, being convinced by her son/daughter to sue the condo corporation and the individual board members.

A board would have to have pretty stupid members to put themselves in that position by PURPOSELY keeping condo fees low and PLANNING to use special assessments to pay for major projects as they arose. And that is assuming they could legally do so.

A lousy board can make bad decisions to some degree and it is for just that reason that government regulations exist, to try and limit just how bad they can make things. I doubt many condo board members get re-elected by the condo owners after having to propose a special assessment. So trying to picture a situation in which a condo board purposely keeps condo fees low just to avoid being 'hassled' by condo owners is just ridiculous to me. You would need the same people running and being elected year after year by condo owners who would accept special assessments without questioning them. I know there are some people that stupid but most are not.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Beaver101 said:


> ... for a "rental"? Or is it because the insurance company doesn't know it's a rental?
> 
> ... I read in somewhere rentals-in-the-future will require complying with such codes. I can't see the practicality of this (never mind the prohibiting costs) given the ghost hotels phenomenon sprouting, barring standalone housing rentals.


Regarding sprinklers Beaver101. When I bought a new condo in 2006, in BC, each room, in each condo as well as the common areas of the building all had to have sprinklers installed. There also had to be automatic door closers on each condo units 'front door' to help prevent the spread of a fire and smoke detectors hard wired in each condo in appropriate numbers for the size of the condo. Those were all part of the building code requirements for multiple unit dwellings. It was also required for the Condo Corporation to hold a 'fire drill' annually as well as have annual inspections of ALL condo units by the local Fire Department. 

Some people would disconnect a smoke detector because it was near enough to their kitchen area that when they cooked say bacon, the smoke would set it off every time. When the Fire Department did their annual inspection, they would open up each smoke detector to check the wiring, for just that reason. If found disconnected, then the condo owner would be REQUIRED by the condo corporation to re-connect the detector or face a FORCED sale of their unit. 

So it isn't 'future' at all, it is now for new builds, whether owner occupied or rental multi-unit properties, as it SHOULD be.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Again, difference is new building vs. Grandfathered properties. 

As for insurance, remember we’re technically only insuring the building, liability and some minor contents. The tenant is required to have their own insurance to cover their liability and contents. So, unlike home insurance where you pay both parts, a landlord only has to pay, let’s say, half. On a condo, it’s less than a third since the corporation covers the majority of the building, all I technically cover is liability and upgrades. 

Landlord insurance is cheap.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Ontario has pretty strict regulations regarding smoke and carbon monoxide alarms.

Every home must have them and they must be annually inspected.

Fire sprinklers aren't required for all units. I believe they are required for buildings over 3 stories high. Our townhouse doesn't have them.

https://www.mcscs.jus.gov.on.ca/eng...ringOntarioFireandLifeSafetyRequirements.html


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

You obviously have no idea what a sprinkler retrofit would cost. There’s no way they can legislate that. It has to be grandfathered in. Now, if there was a major renovation that would be different.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> Again, difference is new building vs. Grandfathered properties.


 ... yes, seems to make sense.



> *As for insurance, remember we’re technically only insuring the building, liability and some minor contents. *The tenant is required to have their own insurance to cover their liability and contents. So, unlike home insurance where you pay both parts, a landlord only has to pay, let’s say, half. On a condo, it’s less than a third since the corporation covers the majority of the building, all I technically cover is liability and upgrades.
> 
> *Landlord insurance is cheap*.


 ... I can't see why it is that. Wouldn't the landlord want to protect his investments for as much as possible? I don't suppose rental-housing insurance is based on standard flat premium or any difference from single residential housing where the latter isn't cheap, certainly not for $500 per year, at least not in TO.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I’ve found the coverage to be excellent so far, not that I’ve had many claims. I’ve experienced a couple of floods and a fire over the years in some of my buildings. Got the rent covered in full while repairs being done (thousands of dollars) they gave me excellent replacement value for upgrades (over 15k just for flooring upgrades, remember the condo insurance pays for as built, and we generally can redo an entire interior for 5k in materials). New appliances. They even paid the special assessment due to the disaster. That $150 probably paid out 50-75k on a property I paid less than 100k for. I’d say the coverage was way more than I expected. 

I’m sure the insurance is based on the value of the property to some extent...I’m not buying 500k houses to rent for 1000 and lose my shirt remember.

I was also just thinking, I’ve got a corporate policy which covers most of my properties...it’s kind of one policy where we just add on a new property as I buy them. That may be why it’s so cheap.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

> I’m sure the insurance is based on the value of the property to some extent...I’m not buying 500k houses to rent for 1000 and lose my shirt remember.


 ... I don't think so either and neither should a newbee.



> I was also just thinking, I’ve got a corporate policy which covers most of my properties...it’s kind of one policy where we just add on a new property as I buy them. That may be why it’s so cheap.


 ... that can explain it.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... I can't see why it is that. [Landlord is only insuring building, liability etc. ... maybe half of what home insurance is covering.]
> Wouldn't the landlord want to protect his investments for as much as possible?


Cheaper is better where I would want replacement value of the building as well as the landlord's/building's stuff. No point in covering the tenant's contents as it is theirs.




Beaver101 said:


> ... I don't suppose rental-housing insurance is based on standard flat premium or any difference from single residential housing where the latter isn't cheap, certainly not for $500 per year, at least not in TO.


Don't forget that with a rental, there are going to be several sets of tenants, never mind the landlord or their reps - going in/out who can notice any problems early. A home owner who has escaped the winter who may or may not have reliable friends checking the home is likely far more of risk.


Cheers


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Just a Guy said:


> You obviously have no idea what a sprinkler retrofit would cost. There’s no way they can legislate that. It has to be grandfathered in. Now, if there was a major renovation that would be different.


Do not under estimate the stupidity of government. These guys think they can control the climate


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Beaver101 said:


> ... I don't think so either and neither should a newbee.
> 
> ... that can explain it.


My son just got insurance for his new place. It cost $361/year. The insurance broker explained that he didn’t own a principle residence, so the cost was going to be higher (some insurance companies actually refused coverage completely because of this). Other reasons why it was more money was because he’s only 18 and this is his first insurance, he doesn’t get the claims free discount or a mature discount (those would give him a 35% discount alone). I think his policy was through intact. 

So, it looks like my $150/year isn’t all that low really. The number of properties I own probably gives me a multiproperty discount, but $200/year seems pretty attainable.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> http://landrushcanada.com/
> 
> One of the presentations, if you look, is 100 properties under 100k.
> 
> ...


I never said you make them up but I stand by the fact they are likely places either in middle of nowhere or in high crime areas or other undesirable areas.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

My sons place is a block and a half away from a very trendy area. We pulled up a history of the building and he got it for 50k less than the next cheapest place to sell in the same building and those were smaller units. 

So, I guess you can continue to think what you want and I’ll continue to buy the places I buy. If you think they aren’t available that means you’re not bidding against me.

By the way, you May want to look at dictionary.com. “Fact” does not mean your “opinion”. A better example of a “fact” would probably be my opinion that you never actually looked up any of those properties to see if your opinion was valid. It’s a simple statement that you could verify as a fact without any work.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

In Jonesboro Georgia they exist ,maybe some place like Windsor but the only thing i see in GTA since 2014 was some apartments in seedy areas of the city. You are correct that I am not bidding against you ,we only bought newer detached homes in GTA and Back in 2009 /2010 they were under $200,000 .I do not want to deal with pets,parking or smoking complaints of tenants in buildings so always preferred detached single family homes.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Those 100 from the conference were apparently just in BC. The central provinces have a lot more than B.C., then there is Quebec and the eastern provinces...Canada is a lot bigger than GTA. You don’t really have to go to the states to find them. Mr. Matt seems to find them in the Hamilton area, but his YouTube channel is probably just photoshopped or something since they don’t exist.


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

I had some downtime and read through this whole thread. Thank you for continuing to put the effort in JAG, and everyone else. It's just the nature of the internet. Nothing should be taken personally, and it shouldn't detract from passing on some wisdom to like minded individuals. Some people can analyze stocks and pick winners on regular basis, others excel at RE investing. There will always be detractors and naysayers on both sides. Just smile and move on. The targeted audience gets it, and appreciates it.


Question. Is there a forum dedicated to RE investing in Canada?


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

STech said:


> Question. Is there a forum dedicated to RE investing in Canada?


A guy called Ozzie Jurock had one going way back. I signed up many years ago and have not seen it in some years. It had sub-forums for each province and some US areas. think it's kinda' moribund.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

LOL MP............that is either most excellent satire, or you missed that Ozzie Jurock is a keynote speaker at the forum that JAG originally posted.

If you click on the link to the forum, an advertisement pops up for the Oz Buzz newsletter.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Gee, who’d have thought a realtor would be selling investment real estate...

That is really strange to see there Sags. If you’d really looked, you would have seen it was his investment conference, run by him, he wasn’t just a keynote speaker. Too funny really.

Perhaps you should really invest in a dictionary, once again English (specifically the word satire) is misused like most words you use.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

sags said:


> LOL MP............that is either most excellent satire, or you missed that Ozzie Jurock is a keynote speaker at the forum that JAG originally posted.
> 
> If you click on the link to the forum, an advertisement pops up for the Oz Buzz newsletter.


I am a bit puzzled as to the notion that my post is in any way satirical. But, if that's what it is, I'll accept, with grace, the "most excellent" tribute.

I am aware that Jurock has been holding these annual "landrush" seminars for quite awhile. But I was responding to the question: "Is there a forum dedicated to RE investing in Canada?". Jurock used to host one and I recall it was somewhat useful. It had a number of sub-forums, as I said, some specific to the various provinces, various states, etc. Perhaps it's still around, but a quick search on my part turned up only something called "Real Estate Talks", which is not organized at all in the way I recall the forum of yore and the most recent posts are about year old. I am not motivated to do a diligent search for a real estate forum and I did not purport to say whether such a thing exists nowadays. I simply offered my one recollection.


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