# So frustrated. What to do?



## Frustrated Canadian (Feb 23, 2017)

Hello all. First post here.

Really wanting to buy a house sometime before it's too late. I'm in my early 40's and I think if I don't buy soon there's no point because I'd never have it paid off before retirement.

Here is the situation.

I'm married with kids. Total combined income is about $65,000 - $66,000. We're just a normal family, no high paying jobs unfortunately. Currently rent a house and always have. Where I live everything is expensive. I know, you're saying it is here too. My hydro bills are $400 plus a month and keep rising with every new tax the provincial and federal governments can dream up! We're trying to save for our down payment, but with 3 growing kids it's hard. Food bills are at an all-time high. Clothing for the kids never lasts more than a few months because they're growing so fast.

What I'd like to know is how is everyone doing it? It seems impossible. I don't have RRSP's to borrow from. We don't have cable. It just seems every time I save $1 that I need to spend $2. Kids need braces soon, animals need medication... always something.

The houses in our city are now around $400k for the cheap ones. Small townhouses are rapidly approaching $400k. A decent house with 3 bedrooms, nothing fancy is more than $500k. We've talked about moving, but then for the cheaper houses in a smaller community we need new jobs there too and I'd be back to making $14/hr which doesn't help.

My wife and I both work extra hours on the side but that just goes for groceries or the next hydro bill coming in or something. So any suggestions to get a part time job... we've already done that.

No idea where to turn next. With our verifiable income we qualify for what, $260,000 ish and that's only when we have our down payment saved. We can't use our part time work for qualifying, it's cash only.

Maybe owning our own home in this day and age with this economy is just a dream. :mad2:


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

Frustrated Canadian said:


> Maybe owning our own home in this day and age with this economy is just a dream. :mad2:


Maybe you are correct.


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

Hi FC, and welcome to the forum.

Please don't get offended by what I'm about to say, but I truly believe the cold hard truth is everyone's best friend whether we like it or not.


1) Why MUST you own a house? Really? Is it to help you save, or is it to impress someone? Lots of other saving options are available, and if you're struggling now while renting, then there's a very good chance home ownership will sink you. Can you handle a leaky roof ($4,000 - $10,000) and broken down appliances ($1,500 - $5,000) at the same time your car gives out ($1,000 - $3,000), and still make mortgage payments, insurance, property taxes, heat and hyrdo bills?

2) Why do you have animals? More than one. If it's a struggle to feed the family as is, then why add pet food and medical bills on top? I totally understand their place in a family, and how good it is for your kids, but if it's adding to your family's financial pain, are they really helping or hurting?

3) Have you considered moving somewhere with better paying jobs? I'm not talking about a different community 50 KMs away, I'm talking move provinces. Think long term for your kids. Where are they better off?

4) Have you thought about more education for you or the wife to upgrade your skills and make more money?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

It's often said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results.

Going to work everyday, paying the bills...same thing everyday, yet nothing really changes. 

When I got hurt, and could no longer work, something had to change because there was now social safety net for me.

At the time I too had three kids, but now no income.

I dove into learning how investing works. I didn't aim for a home run, I aimed not to lose. I couldn't afford to lose anything. I started with what I could, it wasn't much, but it also meant sacrifice. There were many hard decisions to make (sell the investment to pay the bills, or believe the investment would mature and pay out more in the long run). 

I was lucky, and I was right in my choices. My investments did start to pay off and turn my life around. It didn't happen overnight, it didn't start with a home run, it started small and continued to build. My passive income started to come in, and I invested what I made into other investments taking only a little I needed to survive. 

Eventually my investments started generating more than I needed on a daily basis, then they allowed me to pay off the debt I'd accumulated while building. Today, my passive income allows me the freedom to do whatever I want basically, yet I still invest. I enjoy it.

I still don't spend money frivolously, probably never will. Once you've lost everything, you realize that it could always happen again.

Now fortunately, you're not in that situation but that doesn't mean you can't change and follow the path that I did or find a similar one. The path isn't easy, but it's also not that hard. The biggest challenge is getting over the fear of doing something different, especially as your peers will probably think your crazy and have no problem telling you you're an idiot. 

Of course, the alternative is to go back to working for a paycheque and hoping things will change.


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## NOOB (Apr 26, 2012)

My opportunities were created by choosing STech's option #3 (Moving 380 kms away, for a better paying job). Toughest decision of my life... also the best decision of my life. 

Consider:
Networking with successful people. 
Relocating to somewhere more affordable... but never take a job for $14/h... at your age, you have enough life experiences and specialty skills that you would be better off doing side jobs on Kijiji / starting your own business where you can write off your expenses and pay no tax.
Buy a house, live in half, rent the rest to cover your mortgage.

$65k? You're excellent candidates for new jobs:

If I were you, I would secure high paying, construction, work anywhere across Canada, in a Union position where you work Outages at Power Generation / Oil Refineries / Pipe Lines. These projects last a couple months and overtime pay is ridiculous. Yes you would be away from your family, oh well. Your wife will quit her day job to save money on daycare. You will rent a house within walking distance of a school. She would watch your kids and start a daycare. Even a before and after school program, where she walks a group of kids to school would pay the same as she is making now. You would fly out to work a few outages a year, make 6 figures, and plan your time off to collect EI for a couple months during the summer. Then use that time to some memories with the kids while they are still young.

Start driving for Uber this weekend. Save all proceeds in a TFSA. Turn the TFSA into an investment account where you can buy some long term steady investments, and a couple long shot investments. 

Work for the money, then make the money work for you.

Since I borrowed from an RRSP to fund a downpayment, I lost out on a tens of thousands of dollars in growth. So at least you won't make the same mistake I did!

NOOB


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Frustrated Canadian said:


> What I'd like to know is how is everyone doing it? It seems impossible.


Many people are using debt to create the perception of wealth. Most people can't afford things any more than you can. Evidence is the national debt to income ratio
http://wolfstreet.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Canada-household-debt-to-income-ratio-2015-Q2.png

When you look around and you see people in homes, with new cars, and toys just remember that many of these people are deeply in debt. People don't go around broadcasting what their net worth is, or how much debt they have -- so you don't know it.


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## Lost in Space 2 (Jun 28, 2016)

I've talked to many people n the same situation and I always give them two pieces of advice. Most importantly don't make dumb mistakes. Seems obvious but most people don't get this. A few years ago I tried to talk someone out of buying a (expensive) new car but they insisted they absolutely needed it. Shortly after buying the husband went off sick and highly likely into early retirement. She is freaking out as they're not sure how they will afford it.

Secondly everyone gets lucky breaks, take full advantage of them and play to your strengths. Our first place we bought in a bidding war at the peak of the market and then financed it at 120%. Second place in Germany bought and renovated with no money at all, 100% on credit cards. 

Thirdly seek out advice, MMM and especially Frugalwoods would be a great way to start.

Oh while this market (egg on your face Garth Turner) has gone on way way longer than one could have thought or imagined we are pretty much at peak market, I figure, probably wrongly, that it is just about to end.


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## newfoundlander61 (Feb 6, 2011)

"My hydro bills are $400 plus a month" thats alot for hydro wow, mind you I live in Kingston, Ontario and am on Hydro One pay on average $75 monthly year round for a one level 1100 sq foot bungalow. $400 is a big chunk of change to payout each month and have amortgage, try and cut that in half if possible. I am not saying its your fault that electric bills are so high but something to look at when shopping for a house. Its a good idea to ask for the hydro bills for say the past 6-8 months as most people have online access and can quickly print this off.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Sit down with your spouse and re-evaluate your budget. Eliminate everything you can live without. Some choices my be hard but you gotta do it. Re-evaluate where you are living. Maybe you can find cheaper rent with lower expenses. 

Every dollar you can save counts! Don't underestimate it. Over time, that $1.00 will become multiple dollars.

The question you should be asking is "how can I put more money in my pocket" and not "how can I buy a house like everyone else". You're not "everyone else" and need to live life through your own eyes, not that of others. 

Good luck


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## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

NOOB said:


> $65k? You're excellent candidates for new jobs:
> NOOB


Agreed. You need to increase your income. My two adult children and their spouses who are all around your age, both have combined annual income which is more than 2X what you have. I do their income tax, so that's why I know. None of them has high paying jobs but they all have some form of post secondary education and have developed skills and experience. I would suggest you focus on upgrading your education/skill set. Moving for a better job may also be an option.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

How much do you pay in rent? How much would your house cost to buy? There is a good chance your landlord is subsidizing you to the tune of hundreds of dollars every month.

If that is the case it would be foolish to buy. If you can save, you would be better off to invest the money elsewhere. I don't know you but it also seems that you don't want to buy a house that badly, you just think it is the thing to do. This is not true now, if it ever was.


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## Frustrated Canadian (Feb 23, 2017)

Thanks everyone for the responses! Rather than reply with quotes to everyone, I'll try to answer some of the questions below.

My animals are family and are nearing the end of their lives. They were adopted years ago when our circumstances were different than today. They stay no matter what 

I do understand about unforeseen expenses. New roof? Best friend is a roofer. Car breaks down? I did a few years of my mechanic apprenticeship and learned a lot from my dad when he was alive (he was an auto mechanic for many decades). So those bases are covered, but yes, I do know what you mean.

$400 monthly hydro bills here are normal now. I've installed LED lights in every fixture in my house, high efficient shower head etc... I've done all that and then some to save energy. I wash clothes at 10pm when our electricity rates are lowest. Don't own a dishwasher or anything that uses a lot of power. I barely use the stove/oven. Instead we BBQ and use the crock pot most of the time. Yet with everything we do we still can't escape $400 hydro bills. We no longer have cable as of a year ago so we're saving $100 month there.

I have deeply considered moving provinces away. However, I do take care of an elderly parent. Perhaps moving far away is still an option if I could convince her to come.

Going back to school is probably not going to happen. A few years back I did quit my job and received student loans. Just as I started school, my wife was injured at work. She has one of the very few occupations that does not receive WSIB at all. We lived on savings and my student loans until there was no money left. I had to leave school and go back to work. I'm still paying those loans today.

I sleep two hours a day. The rest of the time I'm working, whether it be at my regular job, or doing a few (legit) things on the side. I don't know how much longer I can continue this. I have a couple of severe medical issues. Tumour near the brain and was just diagnosed a few months ago with MS and Dystonia. I'm constantly tired and in pain. Everything hurts and it feels like I have the flu about 16 hours each day.

Why do I want a house? Many reasons. I want the stability of not having to move when the Landlord raises the rent or sells the house etc... I want to be able to do what I want in the house - build new cabinets, add a fireplace etc... all of which I can do myself. I don't want to pay rent forever. One day I'd like to sit back and relax. I'm 41 and I've been working since I was 6 years old (family business back then). I was awake at 4am to work a few hours before school, came home ate dinner and back to work again. That's just how it was in those days. I've worked every day since, all throughout my school years and straight into my 40's now, except the brief time I went back to school.

Making more money where I live just isn't happening. I make $20/hr and I'm a shift supervisor. I've had 4 raises in my 16 months of employment there, and I work my arse off. $14/hr jobs here is all that is paid. There are few jobs with many applicants around here. Demanding more money just isn't happening.

Finally, just to be clear, I'm not complaining of not making enough money (which I know should be more). What I'm frustrated about is my everyday living expenses are eating up our pay cheques. I could definitely afford a mortgage, well, not here at $500k, but elsewhere at half that. What we pay in rent now would pay our mortgage no problem. It's just trying to pay living expenses and rent AND save for a house on top of that is just a killer. With the Governments adding on taxes when they feel like it, all this new carbon tax crap, having gas and hydro bills that seem to go up monthly. A new (for our city only) "stormwater tax" that was just added to our hydro bills in January. 

I'm just frustrated. Frustrated knowing people I work with paid $12,000 and $36,000 for their houses when they bought them.

I will figure out a way. Nothing is going to stop me. My savings might be in small deposits, but I will get there!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

..


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## Frustrated Canadian (Feb 23, 2017)

Let's add some salt to the wound.

I just did our taxes. A few years back we would have gotten a refund around $800 or so. Based on our incomes from last year at $64,500 ish we owe more than $600 and our Child Benefits will decrease by $80 per month in July.

It just keeps getting better.:frown:


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Wife & kids if kids old enough should be helping out as well they would respect money more spend less. One person should not take 100% of the responsability


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Maybe if you post your monthly budget, people could give you some tips on where to cut back on spending? Things like cable or cellphones are often relatively easy to cut back on. 

Check out mrmoneymustache.com if you haven't seen it before - maybe you can get some good inspiration from there.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Your story is a sad one and I am sure repeated by many in our country, although perhaps not the majority on a money investment board. The big issue here is that the useful advice anyone can give you should have been given to you about 25 years ago. That's because any useful tips will take many years to bloom into actual financial benefits.

I will give some thoughts for you to hopefully pass on to your children and maybe get some future benefit yourself. I have found that many people do not fully understand that we live in a competitive world. They understand it as far as the businesses where they spend their money, but don't really understand how it works in the schools they go to and the jobs they strive for and the financial wealth they attempt to build. This is information many figured out in elementary school whereas most never learned it at all. Everyone should probably have been taught it in school, but were not.

This is critical information for wealth building. We live in a capitalistic, free market pricing society. What that means is this. The free market pricing means that the prices of everything we buy are dictated by supply and demand for the money that is available to buy them. To understand this well, think about this. If your rent was only $100 per month, instead of $1200 and the electricity was only $40 per month and not $400, and your food was 1/10th of the price and so on with everything you buy, then $65,000 per year would actually provide your family with an above average lifestyle as opposed to the below average one it does provide. From this you can start to see the importance of how things are actually priced in our society. The money other people have is actually effecting the prices you pay for the stuff you need and want. It is the average incomes of everyone in society that prices everything in that society. Therefore if you want an above average lifestyle, the actual amount of income you make is NOT important, however what is VITALLY important is that you make an ABOVE AVERAGE income.

So you can see that you are in a competition with your friends and neighbours to make more money then them to enjoy a good lifestyle. That is critical. The actual amount of pay is not as important as how it stacks up to others. Our economic system FORCES some people to be poor. If you become more wealthy another Canadian will become less wealthy as a result. This has been happening to you your whole life. I did not invent this system, but I do understand it well and have done OK within it, since many of the people I compete with do not know they are in a competition and therefore made it much easier for me. Since there are many that do know what I am saying and greed is a natural human emotion, saying it was easy for anyone would be an huge understatement.

The next is the fact that we are capitalists. The people control the money and people are naturally greedy. We disguise our greed in statements like, "I want to get the lowest fee on my investments because it is critical to my retirement planning". That is a common theme on this board but when you strip it away, it is nothing but another form of greed. As I said, this is a natural human behaviour (until it moves into the Gordon Gekko style and then it is just sick). Anyway, Capitalism comes into play in the fact that your future employer will want to get the BEST candidate for the MAXIMUM profit. Notice I did not say for the least amount of money since there is a big difference that you can use in your favour. Knowing this at a young age should make you start to position yourself for that sweet above average job in the future. This means getting better grades then everyone else when your in school. Notice I did not say good grades in school. I said better grades then everyone else. It means being a more competent and more dependable worker then everyone else you work with, during your part time jobs in high school (and earlier if possible) and later in your career jobs. Notice I did not say being dependable and competent at work, I said being more dependable and more competent then everyone else. This is done by continually building your skills above the others you work with. It is done by working overtime and most importantly GETTING the job done and keeping excuses to a minimum. Your co-workers will continually bring excuses to your boss, so you need to bring success and results. Your boss wants the job done not a valid excuse why it did not get done. Do you see the difference. If you do, then you are much further ahead then most people you will be competing with out there.

These skills will also help you tremendously if you became an entrepreneur. Actually every successful entrepreneur understands what I just said. You know the ones that never figured it out? the 5 out of 6 business owners that failed.

Anyway a long winded reply, more for your children then yourself, but its never too late to improve your way of thinking. 
Good luck to you.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

From reading your follow up comments, it's clear you really don't understand the rules of the game you are playing.

For example, you complain about not getting a tax refund. Do you understand what a tax refund is? It means they took too much money away from you in the first place. It's not bonus money back from the government, it's your money providing an interest free loan to the government.

The fact that you paid taxes is exactly the reverse. The government let you keep extra money, which you could have put to work earning yourself more money, until they figured it out. The fact that you shove to probably spend this extra money instead of putting it to work for you, is the real problem.

You need to learn about the game you are playing, figure out how to make the rules work for you. Only the fool plays a game and doesn't know the rules, he bigger fool complains about losing when they don't know the rules.

There are literally thousands of ways to make money, and a paycheque is amount the worst way financially. Earning money for a dividend for example is taxed more favourably (meaning you get to keep more of it at tax time) than money earned via interest or a paycheque. 

People talk about high interest savings accounts to store their savings, however the same money used to buy say a bank stock, would pay nearly double the interest (but as a dividend, most banks are paying nearly 5% on a dividend) and have a good chance of capital gains (which is also taxed very favourably). The growth could also be compounded by reinvesting the dividends as a DRIP (this usually gives you an automatic capital gain as well since drips are usually sold at a discount). All this investing could be further put into a tfsa to further reduce expenses.

What I found, when I was in your situation, was that it's not all about decreasing expenses (there is only so far you can cut), it's not about getting a raise (I couldn't even work), it's about increasing your income. If you are unable to work, you need to get your money working for you. Passive income. Getting income in ways that don't directly require you to put in input for it. 

I'm betting you don't really understand most of what I said in my above example. That's not really uncommon. If you bother to do a little research though, you'll find it's not very hard to understand or do though. It certainly isn't "risky" by any means, and it's only one of thousands, if not millions of things you could do to improv your life if you wanted to.

As you learn, you'll learn about legal ways to reduce your taxes. Believe it or not, the government actually rewards people who make money as long as they do it in certain ways. Those ways usually involve benefitting society (so investing in businesses who help build the economy for example). As you begin to be successful, the game usually tilts to help you become more successful. 

Of course, you could continue to be frustrated and complain the game isn't fair, or you can learn the rules and begin to play it. 

Again, as an example of what's possible, I've never had a paycheque as large as yours, yet I own my own home, as well as a lot of rental properties (I've bought 9 over the last two years alone which probably generate your income in profits alone and were bought with none of my own money just my credit rating and my knowledge of the rules). I've been in a similar state to you physically, and still am to some extent. I own stocks, and I own/run a couple of companies. 

I've learned how to use leverage and debt to my benefit, I've learned how the tax system works, I've learned about myself and how I can succeed at investing. I know you can change your situation if you want to, but it requires work and effort on your part. That is the most difficult part of the game, finding the motivation and drive to change.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

A couple of things don't make sense. Hydro bills of $400.00 per month? - Are you heating with hydro? If the cheapest houses are $400,000 it is unlikely that town-homes are that price. More likely they would be about $100,000 less. The trick is often to get into the market at a price point you can afford. After that you can move up. 

My son bought a new townhouse (2 bedrooms, 2 bath & garage) for about $260,000 a couple of years ago and my daughter is currently in the process of buying one. (We live in Ottawa.) Both make significantly less money than the OP. Their mortgage and property taxes will be less than they would pay in rent. 

The hard but essential thing is to save the down payment. I know this is not easy with a young family. You have to find out the minimum down payment necessary and set that as a goal. This might mean sacrifices - perhaps less meals out, a cheaper cell phone plane, 2nd hand clothes for the kids (2nd hand kids clothes are often near new), cutting back on the adult clothing budget, finding free recreation & leisure alternatives (parks, library, community festivals), maybe even cutting cable. But if you really want it you can probably do it.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A vendor backed mortgage is sometimes possible. We had one for a few years, although we didn't want one. 

The seller wanted the whole purchase price in monthly payments for their retirement.

I have a feeling that in the not too distant future, there may be a lot of homeowners looking to sell their homes in a declining market.

That may open up more opportunities for a lot of flexibility on the seller's part.

Put the word out to the biggest real estate brokers in your area and maybe something will come to their attention.


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## tavogl (Oct 1, 2014)

Frustrated Canadian,

I understand your pain. But owning a home will not save you money, landlords can decide to rise rent the same way government can decide to rise interest rates on your mortgage... anyways.

I'd recommend looking into the Pest Control industry, they usually only require highschool diploma and life experience, which you should have. The lowest end would be working as a technician, depending on the company base salary is around 35k plus between 15% to 25% (depending on the company) of the production you do, plus sales and other bonuses. Usually technicians end up making between 50k and 60k, but there are techs making up to 100k a year. The job is not for everyone but you usually get good benefits packages, a truck and phone which can save you money. If you do a little bit of Indeed.ca search you will find this companies are always looking for new people to hire. 

Wish you the best of luck


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## Afp (Mar 19, 2013)

*thank you NOOB*



NOOB said:


> My opportunities were created by choosing STech's option #3 (Moving 380 kms away, for a better paying job). Toughest decision of my life... also the best decision of my life.
> 
> Consider:
> Networking with successful people.
> ...


I thought I was going to give up my account here at CMF since the site new owner reset my login password awhile ago. NOOB, your respond to the opening thread inspired me to go through the work to get my account/login back. 

I second every point you made here. Especially, your final point about the RRSP. I seldom post but have been a reader of this forum for many years and I believe you are somewhat the same since you've got only 10 posts dating back from the day you were to buy your first house in 2012.

I made the same mistake. I borrowed the maximum amount 25k from my RRSP in March 2009 to buy my home (it was the first year they changed the rule to increase the amount from 20k to 25k). Have I could gone back in time, I would use this money to buy more bluechip dividend growth stocks. 

DRIPing all the way,
25k Keyera then is 195k now
25k SBUX is 301k now
25k Visa is 180k now
25k Master Card is 181k now
25k Philip Morris is 105k now
25k TD Bank is 112k now
25k Royal Bank is 93k now
25k Telus is 92k now
25k Computer Modelling Group is 160k now

Funny, after all the years being a reader on this forum, you are the only poster (besides me) who see borrowing from RRSP to fund a downpayment is a mistake. For me, I was at around 20%-25% refund tax bracket at the time of contributing but now paying it back, I am at way over 40% refund tax bracket. What a loser I am! 

I came to this country after high school from a 3rd world country. As I can see, finances really can be very close to a certainty once we land in a first world country. The biggest obstacles to become rich for the middle working class Canadian is living like you are rich before you actually become rich. What is the root cause? Usually it's pretty simple:
1. their house is too big.
2. their car is too new and luxurious.
3. or/and their mouth eats more restaurant food than their wallet can really handle.


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## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

If you and your wife work full time you must average around $16/hour. You say you are working extra hours, so it must be less than that.

I'm finding it a little hard to believe that those are the best jobs someone in their 40's can get in Canada. That is really close to the minimum wages of some provinces, and I see signs for things like starting salaries stocking shelves in that range.

I hate to say it, but I get the feeling you are both settling a bit in what you are taking for jobs. 

But if that is all you can get, then you have to live with that. This isn't Oprah, you get a house, you get a house and you get a house too. You aren't going to afford a house in the place where you live on what you make. 

You could consider moving back to that place where you'll only make $14/hour, because unless my math is wrong (and I know it isn't) that is only slightly less than you are making now.

Also here are some things you can do. Buy used clothes, especially for kids. Kids go through clothes fast and especially at young ages, many of us end up selling our brand name clothes in great condition for pennies on the dollar. Cut that hydro bill. I know they are expensive, but figure out what is drawing so much power and try to adjust. Next time you decide to get a pet, look into the total cost of ownership. Pets are a luxury, and you are low income. Also get a second opinion on braces. Many dentists will recommend braces for every single child these days. It's crazy, most kids do not need braces. "perfect teeth" are a luxury once again. If there are visible issues with your children's teeth then that is different. Also it's worth considering looking for a job with benefits if you anticipate that coming in future years.


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## amitdi (May 31, 2012)

Keep renting, dont own. Not having a mortgage gives you a lot of options. You can cut corners if you lose your job or something. You are already in a tightish spot, adding a mortgage maybe dangerous. Renting is not a bad option. All the best.


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