# Frequency of ABMs from different banks



## LemonJuice (Nov 10, 2011)

Hi there,

I'm wondering about frequency of ABMs of different banks?
My impression is that TD is pretty widespread whereas, for example, CIBC is not as common. Would you agree?
I'm asking because I'm thinking of canceling my TD chequing account and make my PC financial chequing account my main one (as you know: with PC financial one can assess CIBC ABMs free of charge).

Thanks!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I use PC Financial, and I never have a problem getting to an ABM. To be fair, I mostly use the PC machine at the grocery store.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

It likely varies by area.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

If you go to the banks' web sites they have ATM locators, and they usually advertise how many they have nationally. Distribution may vary from region to region. Small towns can be a problem, as banks have been cutting back their retail operations and actually abandoned some towns to their competition. But in major cities I wouldn't think there is much to choose between the Big 5.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

Why do you need ATM access so often? Why not just pay for everything using your debit card or credit card?

Personally I wouldn't use cash at all if it wasn't for the large number of restaurants in Toronto that accept only cash.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Because it's a pain when you go at a busy time and wastes time friggin with the terminal when it's faster, cheaper and easier to pay in cash. Many times they don't accept debit because it takes too long. Plus you have to pay fees or have a more $$ bank package for all those small tx. I use cash for the bulk of my small purchases, only use plastic for larger amounts and when it causes no inconvenience to myself or others. I've paid my cash while the person who used to be in front of me is still friggin with debit. Meanwhile I'm long gone.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

That might have been true many years ago but it definitely isn't now. I can only remember one store charging me extra for using a debit card, it was a small chinese restaurant. I'm also confused by your claim that debit takes too long. It takes all of 10 seconds to insert a debit card into the machine and punch in a few numbers. If there's anything that takes too long, it's those people who pay with a cheque (usually old people). Argh...


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Sherlock said:


> Why do you need ATM access so often? Why not just pay for everything using your debit card or credit card?.


I only ever carry VISA.

If a store doesn't accept VISA, I am flocked like a pair of seagulls.

Went to No Frills couple weeks ago to get some Frank's Red Hot.

Whadd'ya know? They don't accept VISA. Had my friend buy it for me. lol.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

We like CIBC because they have ATM's in many 7-11 stores. We do not like to take money out of a bank ATM at night. We much prefer a well lit, pubilc area like the 7-11 store. 

I used to travel frequently on business. I never had a challenge finding a CIBC machine.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

7-11,interesting,i would of thought 7-11 is not a great place for pulling out monies, around where i live the majority are not in urban developments more through out inner city/downtown/main drags.(questionable people @ times)

For safety...got to go with drive-thru terminals.


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

donald said:


> 7-11,interesting,i would of thought 7-11 is not a great place for pulling out monies, around where i live the majority are not in urban developments more through out inner city/downtown/main drags.(questionable people @ times)
> 
> For safety...got to go with drive-thru terminals.


Until they take your cash and your car


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Sherlock said:


> Why do you need ATM access so often? Why not just pay for everything using your debit card or credit card?
> 
> Personally I wouldn't use cash at all if it wasn't for the large number of restaurants in Toronto that accept only cash.


I've never been to a restaurant that does not take credit or debit, where are these places?


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Good point dmoney but i got a fullsize truck tinted windows....gives off the impression dont mess with me lol.

Beats wresting with a unstable drunk @ 7-11 and his posse lol


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

Makes my small town living seem so much nicer!! I'm with TD rarely do I ever have to worry about paying a third party fee for an atm withdrawl maybe three times in that last 6 years.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Sherlock said:


> I'm also confused by your claim that debit takes too long. It takes all of 10 seconds to insert a debit card into the machine and punch in a few numbers. If there's anything that takes too long, it's those people who pay with a cheque (usually old people). Argh...


It has been proven that debit cards beat cash because there is no need to make change and no delays from seniors counting out pennies. Plus many places offer cashback, especially liqour stores, eliminating the need to use ABMs.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

It's really not that complicated with PC. You go grocery shopping once a week and take out cash then if necessary. No account fees, no dodgy areas, no going out of your way. I take out $80 and it usually last me two to four weeks of spending at places that don't take credit. I've been burned using debit (had my account locked and a fraud investigation because someone cloned my card), so my policy is debit only gets used to pull out cash--everything else is credit.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

jamesbe said:


> I've never been to a restaurant that does not take credit or debit, where are these places?


There are a large number of ethnic restaurants in toronto (usually chinese) that only accept cash. Some don't have the ability to accept debit/credit at all, and others do but charge a fee for it (45 cents if I remember correctly). If anyone lives in the GTA, you can see an example of what I'm talking about at the food courts in Pacific Mall or First Markham Place.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

kcowan said:


> It has been proven that debit cards beat cash because there is no need to make change and no delays from seniors counting out pennies.


That's exactly what I thought, which is why I was confused by TRM's claim that debit slows things down. If anything it should be faster than cash.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Sherlock said:


> There are a large number of ethnic restaurants in toronto (usually chinese) that only accept cash. Some don't have the ability to accept debit/credit at all, and others do but charge a fee for it (45 cents if I remember correctly). If anyone lives in the GTA, you can see an example of what I'm talking about at the food courts in Pacific Mall or First Markham Place.


Probably also not actually entering it into the POS, too. Nice undeclared income.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

I find I'm at an ATM once a week. I still get a few cheques here and there, and I like having a little cash on me just in case.

I find debit and credit cards a little bit slower, but it depends on the situation. 

It does seem to bog things down at Tim Hortons for instance, and it adds one more step at a restaurant. Other places like a grocery store or gas station, it's quicker. 

I think it comes down to how quick the cashier is, and how quick the customer is. 

My wife spent 5 years as a grocery store cashier while she was in college. She can calculate change like a lightning bolt. It's really something to see. She's just as quick on the otherside of the till to, calculating change with weird numbers so she can get a quarter instead of 23 cents and the what not.

Old people counting pennies? Maybe in your fancy highfalutin city, but I get caught behind old people not familiar with debit cards by a 2-1 margin. Add that to the "stripe in, stripe out, use the chip, pay pass and a signature, It's a wash.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

crazyjackcsa said:


> Old people counting pennies? Maybe in your fancy highfalutin city, but I get caught behind old people not familiar with debit cards by a 2-1 margin. Add that to the "stripe in, stripe out, use the chip, pay pass and a signature, It's a wash.


Agreed. The whole idea of customers using the POS has become complicated with the stripe versus chip decision-making. I find most checkout staff do it for you if you screw up the first try. I guess they know.

(To see the old people counting pennies, you need to shop during working hours.  )


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Exactly crazyjacks. I pay with cash and I have my money in hand and ready to hand to the cashier while the person ahead of me is still fussing with their debit card. I could understand if it was a worthwhile sum of money but to not carry enough cash in your wallet to handle small sub-$15 purchases is just foolish and not to mention dangerous. Cash is universal, quick and simple. Not everything that's electronic is better.

I've been stuck waiting behind someone fussing with debit cards 100x for every one time I've been held up by someone writing a cheque or counting pennies.

You're also exposing yourself to more fraud with cameras and keyloggers etc, the more you use your debit card.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

crazyjackcsa said:


> My wife spent 5 years as a grocery store cashier while she was in college. She can calculate change like a lightning bolt. It's really something to see. She's just as quick on the otherside of the till to, calculating change with weird numbers so she can get a quarter instead of 23 cents and the what not.


I never worked retail, but I hate the idea of change jars with a thousand bucks sitting in it, so I spend my change as I get it. Is it that weird to give the cashier 20.02 on a 19.77 bill so you get a quarter back and not two dimes and three pennies? You're get rid of 6 coins that way. I just wish we would get rid of the penny already. Everyone hates it.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> Exactly crazyjacks. I pay with cash and I have my money in hand and ready to hand to the cashier while the person ahead of me is still fussing with their debit card. I could understand if it was a worthwhile sum of money but to not carry enough cash in your wallet to handle small sub-$15 purchases is just foolish and not to mention dangerous. Cash is universal, quick and simple. Not everything that's electronic is better.
> 
> I've been stuck waiting behind someone fussing with debit cards 100x for every one time I've been held up by someone writing a cheque or counting pennies.


I can see how some old people might be slow with debit cards (but then they'd probably be slow with cash too), but I don't see how the fact that THEY are slow with debit cards is an argument against YOU using your debit card. You're not the one that's slow, they are, so why shouldn't you use yours? Some people are just slow and clumsy with everything they do. If someone is fast with cash, he'd probably be fast with a card too, and if someone is slow with a card he'd probably be slow with cash too, no?



> You're also exposing yourself to more fraud with cameras and keyloggers etc, the more you use your debit card.


Isn't that why they introduced chipped cards a few years ago? Those worries are a thing of the past.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Sherlock: It's not an argument against me using my debit card, it's an argument against the notion that debit is quicker in general.

I'm saying equally prepared, cash is quicker because there are fewer steps. Especially on an amount less than a 20.

Often I'll have a bill in my hand, along with a handful of coins at the ready to make change.

Andrewf: That's exactly what I mean! I'm good with numbers, but I for life of me can't get that change notion. If it ends in 7 cents I only look for an amount of change to end in 7 cents, not the 2 cents to get the nickle.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

Cash is faster if you know in advance the exact amount you'll have to pay and have that amount ready, otherwise it's slower because you have to count out the money and/or the cashier has to count out the change.

There was even a whitepaper published by the American Bankers Association that claims debit is faster: http://www.aba.com/aba/documents/blogs/DoddFrank/InterchangeWhitePaperMarch2011.pdf


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

crazyjackcsa said:


> I'm saying equally prepared, cash is quicker because there are fewer steps. Especially on an amount less than a 20.
> 
> Often I'll have a bill in my hand, along with a handful of coins at the ready to make change.


The typical cash transaction, say 19.77, is that I tender 20 and then the cashier pulls 2 dimes and 3 pennies from her drawer and hands them to me along with the receipt. In a debit transaction, she notes that I have card in hand and I slip it into the slot and key my PIN, then she hands me the 2 receipts while I withdraw the card. It is quicker than her handling the cash.

(Plus there is no need for either one of us to inventory the money, so called dead float.)


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Of course the ABA published that paper - you can find any stat to support any POV. Their POV is they want more people on the debit system so they can pass on more fees to us!


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

Has anyone else noticed the chip debit card transactions taking a lot longer? It seems to take forever...

As for frequency of ABMs, I had the same impression that there were more TD machines than CIBC, but according to their websites, TD has 2,700 while CIBC has 4,000. But in Toronto it seems like there are more TDs, though I can't really verify that.

I'd also suggest you look around your neighbourhood and where you work and places you frequent a lot to see how convenient they may be for you. You can usually find an ATM within a 5-10 minute walk wherever you are, but it'd be a big plus if it was convenient for the places you frequent the most.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

What fees? The vast majority of stores don't charge extra fees for debit transactions, and as for those who do you can always shop at their competitors instead.


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## Calgary_Girl (Apr 20, 2011)

I hardly ever use cash, even for small purchases. I use my Visa for almost everything since it gives us cashback and pay it off in full every month.


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