# is your car ready for winter?



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

This is sort of a spinoff to the tires and rims thread. Is your car ready for winter? Here is what I have done to prepare. Anything missed?

1. winter tires
2. winter wiper fluid
3. scraper (to get the frost off the windows)
4. pull out the plug for the block heater
5. prepare extension cords
6. gloves (for those cold morning when cleaning off the car)
7. snow brush (to clean all snow off car INCLUDING the snow on your roof)
8. sand, cat litter or something else to give traction in case you or someone else gets stuck
9. snow shovel
10. winter wipers
11. ensure remote start works (be sure to leave the heater on full blast the night before if you park outside)
12. prepare the garage for indoor parking (ie. throw away or organize all the junk in there!)

Plus your winter sweaters, lohn johns, gloves, scarce, hat, jacket/parka and good quality boots. This is critical for anyone expecting to spend any amount of time outside.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

You should have a safety kit in your car with blanket, flashlight, candle, etc.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> This is sort of a spinoff to the tires and rims thread. Is your car ready for winter? Here is what I have done to prepare. Anything missed?
> 
> 1. winter tires
> 2. winter wiper fluid
> ...


Check on items 1-10, except 11/12. I don't have the luxury of a remote starter on my dodge truck, but I do plug it in on those nasty cold January mornings when the temp is around -20 to -25. I also installed a battery heater blanket around the battery,connected it to a plug tap along with my block heater. I plug that into a timer inside the garage to heat up the block and battery early on those supercold mornings..if I have to go anywhere.

Another thing I do on those cold january mornings for a local drive, is to install
a partial cardboard in front of the rad..the A/C condensor. It allows
the engine to heat up faster at -25c and get the windows defrosted inside,
faster.

I also check the freezing point of the antifreeze every fall, it has
to be at least -25c for the Ottawa winters. If it gets weak and the freezing point is less than -25C, I take some of the old antifreeze mixture
out by siphoning from the rad filler tube, pour in some fresh pre-mixed
antifreeze, run the engine, wait for it to cool off a bit and check again.


----------



## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> This is sort of a spinoff to the tires and rims thread. Is your car ready for winter? Here is what I have done to prepare. Anything missed?
> 
> 1. winter tires
> 2. winter wiper fluid
> ...


If you do #12, you can scratch a lot of other things off the list. sand or cat litter.

Also, you shouldn't leave the heater cranked up. You're making it difficult for the engine to warm up, and blowing cold air. 

It depends on where you are. Down here in sunny southwestern ontario, I don't need block heaters, winter wiperblades or tires


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ You don't 'need' snow tires, but they aren't a bad idea and hardly cost anything when you factor in longer life on usually more expensive summer tires.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

crazyjackcsa said:


> If you do #12, you can scratch a lot of other things off the list. sand or cat litter.
> 
> Also, you shouldn't leave the heater cranked up. You're making it difficult for the engine to warm up, and blowing cold air.
> 
> It depends on where you are. Down here in sunny southwestern ontario, I don't need block heaters, winter wiperblades or tires


You can't scratch off 1-12 just because you have a garage. If you ever have to park outside in a storm, or your car breaks down you will wish you had them all. I can't believe all the Canadians who remotely start their car or park it in a garage and run to it in fall clothing with no hat/gloves. Salt + warmth = rust so I wouldn't park a salty car in a heated garage either

If I could change 1 rule, I would make anyone who gets in an accident on summer tires below 3 degrees completely accountable and fine them as well. Anyone who is into racing knows the most important factor in grip is the rubber compound and its temperature. Winter tires start to out perform summers at only 7 degrees and summers are downright dangerous below 0 regardless of how sunny SWern Ontario is


----------



## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Hubby did snow tires on one car last week , have appointment booked to put the snow tires on other SUV wednesday.We rarely go out in the winter when driving is bad but we live in outskirts and have about 1/2 km of road which rarely gets plowed ,lucky the farmer next door has a truck with a blade and he does it for us when it is really bad.Not a bad idea to keep some water bottles and energy bars in your car if you do lots of winter driving.
My brother is single and lives in Alberta , he has his truck packed with sleeping bags and even a small coleman lamp .I guess 30 years in the military gets you taking survival gear more serious than most of us .


----------



## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

1. I used to have studded snow tires when I drove a rear wheel drive, but for the last three winters I've beeen driving with mud and snow rated all seasons. Ever since I got a front wheel drive car I find that I have no problem in the snow.
2. Check.
3. Check (used it for the first time this morning).
4. I have one but I've never tried it. Is there any benefit to using it at temps between 0 to -15 C? Since that's the normal range of winter temps here.
5. Check.
6. Check.
7. Check.
8. I will remember this.
9. Have one but not in car.
10. I'll have to look into this.
11. N/A
12. N/A

13. Check Antifreeze (still need to do that)


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

marina628 said:


> he has his truck packed with sleeping bags and even a small coleman lamp .I guess 30 years in the military gets you taking survival gear more serious than most of us .


If he has a stove he can easily melt snow to survive a long time. I carry my firesteel magnesium rod we're taught to start fires with, but a stove would be much more convenient. Maybe I'll throw mine in beside the first aid kit

I also carry a flashlight, multitool and 550 paracord lanyard at all times. Flashlight is a signal for help or a perfect distraction against a mugger. All it takes is for you to slide into a ditch and you're stranded


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I've used all-seasons through the winter before, I think describing them as 'downright dangerous' is a bit strong. You can't drive aggressively, but you can't with snow tires, either. That said, when I got a new car, I opted for snow tires. It seems like cheap insurance to me.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> Salt + warmth = rust so I wouldn't park a salty car in a heated garage either.


Vehicles never rust in the other 3 seasons as much as winter, where the
vehicle stays wet and the heat accelerates the rusting process.
The salt spray gets into nooks and cranies and eats..away at your expensive investment ..."rust never sleeps"..that's an album by Neil Young..but
so true. 





> If I could change 1 rule, I would make anyone who gets in an accident on summer tires below 3 degrees completely accountable and fine them as well. Anyone who is into racing knows the most important factor in grip is the rubber compound and its temperature. Winter tires start to out perform summers at only 7 degrees and summers are downright dangerous below 0 regardless of how sunny SWern Ontario is


I agree with what you are saying.
In Quebec they are the law after Nov 1st. I tried the all seasons
on my Dakota in the first few winters..even with 100lb sand bags over each wheel well, it would still spin at a stop light and with heavy snows sometimes it would sit and spin. 
Now with agressive grip snowtires + 100lb sand bag weights over each wheel, I don't have any traction problems and better steering and braking control of a RWD vehicle.

The big issue is braking on slippery roads..unless you have all wheel abs,
you are going to have some problems with emergency braking on those
frost covered (exhaust condensation) or freezing rain roads. 
Here in Ottawa, around the end of Nov/early Dec, there are a ton of accidents from drivers forgetting to slow down on roads with less traction
and when they have to stop....it's a chain reaction of accidents.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

andrewf said:


> You can't drive aggressively, but you can't with snow tires, either. That said, when I got a new car, I opted for snow tires. It seems like cheap insurance to me.


What? If you can't drive aggressively then how exactly do you passively make an emergency stop or maneuver if something happens? People who drive on all-seasons assume that everyone feels just as poor grip and they can keep up because you don't drive aggressively until there is an emergency. You stop significantly faster on winters below 0 degress absolutely no argument. They probably aren't mandatory because auto body shops would go out of business

I would say winters are actually cheaper than all seasons. In order for all seasons to work half-assed in the winter they wear out even faster in the summer. If you live in a place like GTA, I would opt for sports winters because they last longer and work best on bare cold pavement or light snow/slush.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I drove on all-season tires through several winters and never had a problem. You leave longer headways and drive sensibly. I'm not denying that snow tires are better. I suspect though that people have a risk budget, and since snow tires (plus AWD, ABS, traction control etc.) are safer, people increase risk by following closer, braking more aggressively, taking turns more quickly, driving in worse weather conditions etc.

And all that said, cell phones are responsible for more accidents than all-seasons.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I don't think cell phones are responsible for more accidents at all. Not even close.

Whenever the first snow hits or a big storm there are ALWAYS lots of accidents. The difference is it was just an "accident" and the "snow" was to blame not the all season tires. After all, it's perfectly legal to use all seasons unless you're in Québec


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> And all that said, cell phones are responsible for more accidents than all-seasons.


*Fly on the dashboard *of a woman's car..driving on all seasons and answering
a phone call on her cell phone (illegal now in Ontario as well)..

Driver: Hello? Is this the Walmart tire dept?
Answer: Yes, we are calling you about your appointment for new tires,
which do you prefer???.."Wally_World" All Seasons..or Maxi-GRIP Mud n'Snow on your < INSERT small asian made econo-box HERE>?

Driver, Well..let me think... I can't decide.. how much for the all seasons?
Ans: $89 per tire x 2 tires + balance + taxes = $246.24
Driver: Wow! Thats seems like a lot! How much for the snowtires?

Ans: You realize you need snow tires on all 4 wheels for your front wheel drive car to handle properly on winter roads?
Driver: Oh! I didn't know that!..how much is THAT going to cost me?
Ans: $89 x 4 plus $50x 4 for the rims + 4 x balance + taxes = that's a grand total of $718 for the snows.

Driver...never mind I'll keep driving on these..they are not that bad yet!
<driver ahead panic brakes!!!>

*Driver,still on cell phone..OMG!!!!!!! * <panic brakes with no braking reaction
distance allowed because driver was too busy talking on phone about tires..>

*CRASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:*


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> Whenever the first snow hits or a big storm there are ALWAYS lots of accidents. The difference is it was just an "accident" and the "snow" was to blame not the all season tires.


Not sure about the driving conditions in the "Center of the Universe..TO",
but here in Ottawa, there is usually a lot of accidents the first day of slippery
roads on the streets and on the 4 lanes...Black ice...it takes it share of drivers too..but most of the accidents are preventable..they drive like idiots 3 seasons of the year when roads are reasonably dry, then they forget that they have to slow down and allow more car lengths to stop when the roads are slippery.
So you and I pay for that in terms of car insurance going up every year. 

Not paying attention is another major cause..yakking to each other inside
the car, yakking on prohibited cell phones, fiddling with the radio, half asleep,
half awake, following too close...


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> I don't think cell phones are responsible for more accidents at all. Not even close.
> 
> Whenever the first snow hits or a big storm there are ALWAYS lots of accidents. The difference is it was just an "accident" and the "snow" was to blame not the all season tires. After all, it's perfectly legal to use all seasons unless you're in Québec


Plenty of people with snow tires lose control, too. I don't think you can credibly attribute all those accidents to all season tires alone and not idiot drivers.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Cell phones, whether hands-free (still legal) or handheld (now illegal in ON) are almost uniquely distracting. A conversation with a passenger is usually fairly safe as the passenger is taking cues from the driver and their surroundings about when to shut up and not distract them. People on the phone, not so much--doesn't matter whether it is hands-free or not.

I don't think listening to the radio is all that distracting for the most part. Channel flipping and playing with CDs, maybe. 

I have seen someone reading a kindle while driving on the highway. I was dumbfounded.


----------



## canadianbanks (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm in a fairly good shape with the exception of the winter tires, but I'll put them on the next weekend.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

> Ontario Canada Insurance Companies are being pushed by vehicle safety experts to start offering premium discounts to drivers who use winter tires. The province's motorists are too lazy and poorly trained to put on snow tires and that leads to accidents and traffic nightmares during snow storms, police and other experts say.
> 
> *A Leger Marketing poll in October showed only 34% of Ontario drivers planned on using snow tires this winter compared with 78% in Quebec, where the government is considering making them mandatory. *
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter that Toronto has less snow, it still drops below freezing there so adequate "cold weather" tires should be common sense. If culture overcomes that common sense like in Toronto then make them mandatory.

I really doubt people drive around 60% slower on all-seasons whenever the temps drop below 0. People drive along on cold pavement with solid frozen tires thinking they can stop like normal. People think winter tires are for snow


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Many people manage to drive many winters on all-season tires without issue. So I think the statement that they are 'useless' in cold weather is demonstrably untrue. Look, I'm not saying they are as good as winter tires. I bought winter tires myself. But to call them deathtraps or something is too far. If they were absolutely essential, people would lose control on a regular basis, not every 5 - 10 years as a mean. It's not like everyone on all-seasons instantly crash the first night the temperature falls below zero.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

That's because you don't have to avoid an emergency every day.

I'm sure you would have been fine those same many winters without your seatbelt on as well! Therefore seatbelts should not be mandatory either, even though they are also proven to save lives in an emergency situation for very little cost

Torontonians think they don't need snow tires because they don't get snow and their neighbours don't use snow tires


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> It doesn't matter that Toronto has less snow, it still drops below freezing there so adequate "cold weather" tires should be common sense. If culture overcomes that common sense like in Toronto then make them mandatory.
> 
> *I really doubt people drive around 60% slower on all-seasons whenever the temps drop below 0. People drive along on cold pavement with solid frozen tires thinking they can stop like normal. People think winter tires are for snow*


andrewf, and others, mode3sour is 100% correct.

If you know a damn thing about cars, you'd know that everything mode is spewing is pure truth. 

It's all in the tire compound, the tread, the wear, the softness/hardness, the width, everything takes into account. Most people also think that WIDE tires do well in the snow. Wrong. Opposite. Skinny tires perform better.

And - Can I just make sure everyone knows the *REAL* Rule #1?

Rule #1: Learn how to drive. In all conditions. Know the limits of your vehicle and your abilities.



As for all of you suckers - my car was put in heated, vented garage storage on Saturday. I have my 4x4 Toyota 4Runner on the road with some beefy 32" Mudders. See y'all in the snow!


----------



## LBCfan (Jan 13, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> Rule #1: Learn how to drive. In all conditions. Know the limits of your vehicle and your abilities.


Ah ha. The real reason for 99% of "accidents".

That being said, if everyone followed Rule #1, there would be:

no accidents
no need for winter tires
no need for insurance
no need for ...................... whatever

I follow Rule #1. I don't have winter tires. I haven't been in an "accident" in over 20 years (and when I was, I was rear-ended), [sarcasm on]_I think it was my fault because I stopped too fast_[sarcasm off]. I do like to be in control of my vehicle but I have no place to store winter tires. Therefore I use all seasons and I don't run into anybody. 
Seems to me that if any of you winter tire users run into anyone, the money you spent on the tires was wasted, you should have opted for driving lessons.


----------



## Potato (Apr 3, 2009)

For winter tires, I went for years on all-seasons, driving smart and careful, and only when the weather was at least half-decent (since I don't drive to work and so never _had _to drive, I could choose to stay home when the roads were the worst). So sure, it is _possible _to get by in Toronto. 

But then I got winter tires and it just adds such a nice margin-of-safety to the whole experience that I'd never go back to just trying to get by with all-seasons. I don't use up that margin-of-safety by driving any less defensively than I did before, but sure, there are drivers that do.

In my experience, there are those who have used all-seasons for years and don't think winter tires are worth the cost, and those who have winter tires who think they're totally worth the cost, but none who've used a modern winter tire and decided it wasn't worth it [even andrewf's nuanced position, if I'm reading him right]. 

For those that can't store a second set, I highly recommend a mountain/snowflake rated "all weather" tire like the Nokian WR.

Other winter prep: I block my grill with pipe insulation. I've got it 50% covered now that it's under 10°C, and will block 90% once it's consistently below -5. Same idea as carverman's cardboard block: helps keep the engine warm. 

I also pack a portable battery/booster pack, and a spare jug of winter washer fluid.

This year I picked up an after-market seat heater pad for the wife, since I tend to keep the interior cold.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> Cell phones, whether hands-free (still legal) or handheld (now illegal in ON) are almost uniquely distracting.


Absolutely. My taxi driver ( on my para-transpo trips to hospital) has a handsfree cell, GPS and radio the dispatcher. He's got the radio on too.

So being his fare, I have a choice of sitting in the front passenger or back seat seat. I'm sitting in the front passenger seat, as he's yakking on the handsfree, overruns the turn, makes a u-turn where he's not supposed to be, engages in a conversation with the dispatcher about the next pickup or cancellation....almost rear-ends a car! 
I was *thankful* to arrive at my home without sustaining any injuries as a passenger!



> A conversation with a passenger is usually fairly safe as the passenger is taking cues from the driver and their surroundings about when to shut up and not distract them.


 But, this doesn't always work with the wife in the passenger front seat and young kids 3 yrs + in the back seats. 
If the driver engages in an argument with the wife over something or the kids become whinny..it's a major distraction, and on slippery roads can lead to a fatality if the driver is not paying attention to their driving and the fast changing scenarios around his moving vehicle.

Seniors who learned to drive 50 years ago in different traffic patterns
and driving conditions, also create scenarios for accidents because they plod along at 60km in a 80 or 100km zone. Perhaps they should not be driving at their age due to slow reaction times, but the MOT doesn't
check them on reaction times or driving ability..only a mandatory
eye test..and that's probably not enough in today's fast traffic pace
for most scenarios out there.
http://helpguide.org/elder/senior_citizen_driving.htm

I used to work for Bell many years ago. Even if you already had a licence,
they would send you on their proprietary driving saftey course BEFORE
you were allowed to drive any of their vehicles (company self insured).

Some of the safety steps ingrained into my mind ..even after 40 years as
a driver:

1. Circle check around your parked vehicle before moving off
2. Look where you are going
3. Get the BIG picture (what is happening with traffic ahead of you?
stopped? or slowing down to stop on the expressway
4. Count to 10 before starting off at a traffic light intersection ( reaction time between you and the next vehicle and in case somebody is running a
red light at the last second)
5. Frequently scan your rear view mirror and side mirrors
6. Make SURE they see you (flash lights or toot horn..that sort of thing)
7. Maintain a cushion of space between you and the vehicle in front
of you in order to have enough reaction braking time to stop safely.
8. Be prepared to stop..if you have too. 




> I have seen someone reading a kindle while driving on the highway. I was dumbfounded.


Driving becomes so routine, most people take it for granted and become
complacent in a car and start doing stupid things while driving or stopped
at a light where it can take a minute or two to change to green,
Combing hair, fixing makeup, FATIGUE, driving too fast for road conditions to
stop safely, eating, staring out the window at other events,
under the influence of drugs (illegal or prescription), alcohol related,not keeping eyes focused in the direction you are going , rubbernecking...

So it's not just the type of tires, speed, reaction time, road conditions or cell phones contributing to accidents... the human factor is the biggest contributor.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Potato said:


> This year I picked up an after-market seat heater pad for the wife, since I tend to keep the interior cold.


Good man..keep the wife happy by preventing cold seat tushies. 

Here's another tip..that people forget sometimes. Windshield washer fluid
is -35 to -40 while it's in the jug. If you have windshield washer fluid
in the wiper washer reservoir bottle inside the engine compartment..over
the summer and engine heat, the methyl hydrate alcohol evaporates and
you end up with a solution that could freeze on your windshield when
you go to use it to wipe off salt spray on the highway. 

That could be extremely dangerous because you are driving BLIND when that happens. So even topping up what's already in there isn't good enough for
those -20C driving days. Not only will the washers freeze up on you,
which is just as dangerous if the windshield becomes caked with salt spray,
but you won't be able to just pour some new washer fluid in and keep
driving. The rubber hoses and washer jets have to be thawed out first.
(with a hair dryer).

To ensure this doesn't happen to you, by mid-November..drain out the
contents of the washer reservoir then add new fluid 
or add some de-icer to it, such as methyl hydrate (wood alcohol)/gas line antifreeze (to the reservoir) to bring the freezing point back down to -35C.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Potato said:


> For winter tires, I went for years on all-seasons, driving smart and careful, and only when the weather was at least half-decent (since I don't drive to work and so never _had _to drive, I could choose to stay home when the roads were the worst). So sure, it is _possible _to get by in Toronto..


I've gone for almost 30 years without ever needing my seat belt or air bags even in the worst of weather. I just drove smart and careful like you. They should offer cheaper cars with no seat belts and air bags for good drivers like us? 

You say you stayed home when the roads were the worst, but like I've said already all seasons are significantly worse on bare dry cold pavement, not just bad weather - cold weather.

Most garages will store your winter tires for you for little cost. Not only are all seasons worse in the winter, they're also worse and wear faster in the summer..


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> That's because you don't have to avoid an emergency every day.
> 
> I'm sure you would have been fine those same many winters without your seatbelt on as well! Therefore seatbelts should not be mandatory either, even though they are also proven to save lives in an emergency situation for very little cost
> 
> Torontonians think they don't need snow tires because they don't get snow and their neighbours don't use snow tires


I'd say it's the difference between a 3 point seatbelt and a lap belt. Cars these days are equipped with 3 point belts because they are safer. It doesn't make lap belts useless, though.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> I've gone for almost 30 years without ever needing my seat belt or air bags even in the worst of weather. I just drove smart and careful like you. They should offer cheaper cars with no seat belts and air bags for good drivers like us?
> 
> You say you stayed home when the roads were the worst, but like I've said already all seasons are significantly worse on bare dry cold pavement, not just bad weather - cold weather.
> 
> Most garages will store your winter tires for you for little cost. Not only are all seasons worse in the winter, they're also worse and wear faster in the summer..


Since mortality is highly correlated to speed, we should then govern all cars at 110 kph, since that is the highest legal maximum speed in Canada. I'm guessing you may not be in favour of this.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Maybe you are a visual learner. All season tires at 0 degrees on bare dry pavement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPKvQQMxE_A&feature=related

That's 0 degrees. The AVERAGE in Toronto in the winter is like -5, down to -30 snow or no snow. All Seasons are like driving on bricks and tires are rubber for a reason. You don't notice because winters slip in the winter as well. You would only really understand if you did a back to back in same conditions how useless they really are

As far as governing cars, *if someone gets in an accident speeding they are at fault*. Like I said at the start, *it should be YOUR FAULT if you get in an accident with All-Seasons in the winter*. (This is the rule in Europe) A go cart is dangerous at 50 kmh. It's all relevant. All Season tires are designed to operate down to 7 degrees at most 0 degrees. My car is designed from the ground up to operate at high speeds. Speed is more dangerous just like winter driving is more dangerous..... but speeding in a car designed to speed is similar to driving in the winter with winter tires...

Driving on all seasons in -5 is like doing 150 in a k car.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Perhaps my only disagreement is that people involved in any accident will be found automatically at fault if they are on all-seasons. What if the other driver runs a red and t-bones--what does that have to do with the tires? If you cause an accident because you are on all-season tires, you are found at fault anyway. But the the causation is important.

If we were to follow the Quebec model of banning all-seasons during the winter because they are dangerous (I'm indifferent--I think winter tires are a good idea), we should also govern cars. I don't care what your car is designed to do. It cannot legally travel at 200 kph on public roads, and even a well designed car can and will kill people in the hands of a careless driver, and the devastation increases geometrically in relative speed. So why should cars not be governed?


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> Rule #1: Learn how to drive. In all conditions. Know the limits of your vehicle and your abilities.


Easier said than done in traffic conditions. Most drivers don't know the limit
of their vehicles..they drive too fast for slippery conditions, hit the binders
in an attempted panic stop and rear end the car in front of them..or lose
control completely.

What is the solution? Driver training/refresher courses. 
The MOT enforce the emission test every 2 years, they should be enforcing
a vehicle handling test, each time you renew your personal license every
5 years. You would be surprised how many drivers out there qualify for
Canada's Worst Driver tv program.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Who's at fault if you cut off a drunk driver? Most drunk drivers don't get in accidents either, their reaction time is slower just like your stopping distance is 60% longer. Who's at fault if an old lady runs a red in front of a speeding driver? All seasons below 0 degrees should be just like speeding and driving above the legal limit of alcohol

I do go above 110 legally by the way...... On race tracks, on the autobahn, on a private air strip on the weekend etc.... Not everybody lives in an urban prison. I speed on public roads same as the local culture does (in Canada 10-20 kmh, in Germany their culture is to follow rules strictly so they make them reasonable instead) Canada's speeding rules are soft and cops tend to pull you over if you go faster than the average or break another soft rule at the same time.

You are a person who thinks a rule makes something safe. "120kmh is unsafe because it's illegal but all-seasons are safe because it's legal" I think you're just being stubborn now because I've explained that cars can be designed to go above 110kmh (and I thought legally was common knowledge) whereas all seasons are not designed to go below 0 degrees. You're reinforcing my impression of the average Torontonian


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I mean, you said:



> They should offer cheaper cars with no seat belts and air bags for good drivers like us?


Which is not really different from:



> They should offer faster cars that can travel twice the maximum legal speed for good drivers like us?


Where am I going wrong here?


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> It cannot legally travel at 200 kph on public roads, and even a well designed car can and will kill people in the hands of a careless driver, and the devastation increases geometrically in relative speed. So why should cars not be governed?


I can think of a maybe a couple of reasons..

1: passing another car doing 100kph, and running out of passing speed because the governor limits you to 110mph..may not be enough safety margin at 100kph, but then, you do have a passing lane on the 400 type highways.

On two lane highways (80kph legal speed), 110 should be enough, as
a matter of fact if you get caught doing 30kph over the posted limit,
they impound your car for speeding and suspend your licence. 

2: Vehicle selling points..when the speedo is showing 200 kph max, it's
comforting to know that I can do twice the legal speed limit and
get there a lot faster. 

and perhaps the ability to outrun the cops on a speed trap.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Speeding is dangerous just like driving in the winter is dangerous. Driving on all season tires below their operating temperature is just like driving a car above the speed it was designed to operate at. Tires also have a speed rating just like they have a temperature rating right on the sidewall. Racing tires have to be heated up before they grip, winter tires grip poorly in heat. Temperature is actually the most important factor in the grip.

There is no maximum legal speed limit off public roads. I have no issue with the new technology of GPS governor such as on the Nissin Skyline. There are legal rules against speeding for obvious reasons. There should be legal rules against all season tires because just like some numpty will speed through town, some retard will drive around on all seasons in sub zero


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> Who's at fault if you cut off a drunk driver? Most drunk drivers don't get in accidents either, their reaction time is slower just like your stopping distance is 60% longer. Who's at fault if an old lady runs a red in front of a speeding driver? All seasons below 0 degrees should be just like speeding and driving above the legal limit of alcohol


I think this is unreasonable. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I don't agree that drunk driving and driving on all-seasons in winter are comparable in terms of risk. Should we also automatically find people at fault if they drive vehicles without traction control, ABS, etc.?



> I do go above 110 legally by the way...... On race tracks, on the autobahn, on a private air strip on the weekend etc.... Not everybody lives in an urban prison. I speed on public roads same as the local culture does (in Canada 10-20 kmh, in Germany their culture is to follow rules strictly so they make them reasonable instead) Canada's speeding rules are soft and cops tend to pull you over if you go faster than the average or break another soft rule at the same time.


You're putting up a strawman here. I clearly said public roads in Canada. You can disable a governor at a track, as that is a private road. Canada does not have unlimited speed roads.



> You are a person who thinks a rule makes something safe. "120kmh is unsafe because it's illegal but all-seasons are safe because it's legal" I think you're just being stubborn now because I've explained that cars can be designed to go above 110kmh (and I thought legally was common knowledge) whereas all seasons are not designed to go below 0 degrees. You're reinforcing my impression of the average Torontonian


Please don't tell me what I believe. I believe rules should be followed or changed. I'm not basing my observation that all-seasons are acceptably safe based on what the current rules are, but that they are not a leading cause of accidents (most is driver error). Sorry if you think I'm being stubborn, I just don't think the evidence backs your assertion that all-seasons are as dangerous as drunk driving. I'm not sure why you're getting so hostile... I'm a winter tire convert after all, not one of those dastardly Torontonians.

Sure, cars can be designed to go 400 kph. That does not make it safe to travel at that speed. What happens when a car going 400 kph gets cut off by someone going 100 kph. Drivers aren't perfect. What about hitting a bad pothole, driving over a ladder, having a deer jump in front of it? Most of the time it would be game over for the occupants of the car, and possibly people around that vehicle.

I think we have speed limits and they should either be enforced or changed. Maybe I'm a little bit German at heart.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> . Driving on all season tires below their operating temperature is just like driving a car above the speed it was designed to operate at. There should be legal rules against all season tires because just like some numpty will speed through town, some retard will drive around on all seasons in sub zero


How many drivers check the condition of their tires in winter, much less care about how effective the rubber compound is at gripping on a surface that has had snow or ice on it?
They just get in the car and drive to where they are going..and maybe stop at Timmy's for a cuppa joe, before they get there.

Very few drivers out there these days, know anything about tire compounds, perhaps that should be another imposed education on them, like the emissions test.
Fail the emissions and you are given a chance to keep driving until
your next emission test with some minor repairs..new gas cap, spark plugs
etc..but if you get another subsequent failure, your vehicle could be
pulled off the road entirely until repaired.

For a while after, after the loose truck tires kept coming off and killing some people, the cops were pulling over trucks and checking the tires.
Perhaps they should be doing that to cars as well in the winter months..but it would be a overwhelming task with the numbers out there.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Here's my two cents (or more on this). 

All these things that you guys are arguing are risk factors. Risk factors are defined as either unknown impacts or unknown probabilities of it occurring, or a combination of both. I would guess that the type of tires, though may attribute to some accidents are not the cause of the majority of the accidents out there. I would venture to guess without the actually statistics that drunk driving, speeding, distracted driving are larger reasons why people get into accidents. Hence why some of these things are illegal and others are not. There is not way to take out all the risks in driving or winter driving, other than to stay at home, and make sure your car is parked inside. I would also venture to say that people are bad drivers not because of their tires, and even with snow tires, they would still get into accidents. 

The reasons there are seat belt, car seat, drunk driving, speeding, etc laws is because their have been data to suppose that these are higher risk behaviors, that by putting in a law will save some lives. Will it save all lives? No, there will still be accidents even if there is a law that requires winter tires. How much of a decrease will it be? I don’t think that much, but I don’t know for sure? Is there some sort of study/statistic for this.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

andrew I give up because you make no sense and you don't read anything. All I do is repeat myself and you bring up new irrelevant points. Calling you stubborn was giving you the benefit of the doubt I'm afraid.

A governor has nothing to do with making all seasons tires a legal reason to be at fault. Speeding is already a reason to be at fault. Therefore, a governor is "a strawman" ABS and traction control are also "strawmen" as cars were designed to operate without them and they are skill related. No amount of skill can make all season tires grip sub zero pavement just like nobody is immune to the effects alcohol.

As I've already clearly explained, using all season tires in sub zero is like driving a car faster than it was designed to drive. You can drive fast relatively safely on a closed course or where you can see for miles, irregardless of rules. I said you are focused on rules because you have made that quite clear over and over. Drunk driving is another perfect example of that. Drunk driving was probably culturally acceptable at one time, just like all season tires in Toronto.

Your arguments are all "strawmen" you just don't see it..


----------



## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

Saying that every all season tire is not designed to be driven below freezing is not true. In fact many all season tires have the winter ratings on them tested and designed to be driven sub zero in snow/ice...of course having the softer compounds in the rubber reduces the longevity of the tire. A winter specific tire will be safer then an all season tire in the winter due to it's one season design....However if they made this law than how many winter tires would we see in the summer.....where their performance is actually poorer than most standard tires and pretty much ruins them for the next winter. ( I see this all time) I have a nice set of winter tires and there is a noticable difference between them and my old all season tires..that difference wasn't very noticable if at all when my all seasons were new however...I live in a snow belt area.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> Here's my two cents (or more on this).
> 
> All these things that you guys are arguing are risk factors. Risk factors are defined as either unknown impacts or unknown probabilities of it occurring, or a combination of both. *I would guess that the type of tires, though may attribute to some accidents are not the cause of the majority of the accidents out there. I would venture to guess without the actually statistics that drunk driving, speeding, distracted driving are larger reasons why people get into accidents. * Hence why some of these things are illegal and others are not. There is not way to take out all the risks in driving or winter driving, other than to stay at home, and make sure your car is parked inside. I would also venture to say that people are bad drivers not because of their tires, and even with snow tires, they would still get into accidents.
> 
> The reasons there are seat belt, car seat, drunk driving, speeding, etc laws is because their have been data to suppose that these are higher risk behaviors, that by putting in a law will save some lives. Will it save all lives? No, there will still be accidents even if there is a law that requires winter tires. How much of a decrease will it be? I don’t think that much, but I don’t know for sure? Is there some sort of study/statistic for this.


I agree it is all risk factors however when a manufacturer sells something it is designed to be used at a certain speed/temperature just like a bridge is designed to hold a certain range/weight of vehicles. All season tires aren't designed to be used below 0. The engineers have labeled them risky to use below 0 just like a bridge is not designed to hold a cruise ship. Sure you can do things they weren't designed for, but it wasn't part of the considerations when the engineers made it

Your guesses about tires vs speed/drinking are guesses. Of course we always hear about people illegal drunk driving and speeding because something illegal is a bigger deal to people. When hundreds of cars crash in snow, it makes the news as "cars crashed due to bad weather" not "cars crashed due to all season tires" Tires are a significant factor in accidents


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

mode, you're getting really upset about a minor disagreement. Relax. I've already told you that I'm playing devil's advocate here. I mostly agree with you, just when you say that all-seasons don't grip at all below zero, this is demonstrably untrue. Coefficient of friction doesn't go to zero. That's physically impossible.

I brought up traction control because it reduces risk, just like seat belts, airbags, ABS, winter tires, etc. 

Say a person rear-ends another car that has all-seasons at a stop sign. To say that the person with the all-seasons is at fault defies logic. That's where you lost me.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

DanFo said:


> Saying that every all season tire is not designed to be driven below freezing is not true. In fact many all season tires have the winter ratings on them tested and designed to be driven sub zero in snow/ice...


If they are labelled and designed for winter as you say then they are fine and perfectly legal in Québec. There are many sports winter tires that are like hybrids and last longer. Summer driving doesn't have huge car pile ups that cost insurance companies millions like the Cdn winter does. If people want to use winter tires all summer they can go ahead, but I agree it is dumb




andrewf said:


> mode, you're getting really upset about a minor disagreement. Relax. I've already told you that I'm playing devil's advocate here. I mostly agree with you, just when you say that all-seasons don't grip at all below zero, this is demonstrably untrue. Coefficient of friction doesn't go to zero. That's physically impossible.
> 
> I brought up traction control because it reduces risk, just like seat belts, airbags, ABS, winter tires, etc.
> 
> Say a person rear-ends another car that has all-seasons at a stop sign. To say that the person with the all-seasons is at fault defies logic. That's where you lost me.


There should be a devil's advocate font or something

I don't know how the fault stuff works but I believe there is a hierarchy to determine it. Right now all seasons aren't considered and an at fault accident or partially at fault can kill someones insurance rates depending where you live. My insurance was deducted by half here because I have no at faults


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

But are all those winter pile-ups solely because of all-seasons? I wonder how much of a reduction in accidents was observed in Quebec before and after the winter tire requirement went into effect. I expect there would be some difference, but I don't think it would be huge. People drive like idiots. Give them better traction and they will just follow more closely, brake later, drive faster, etc.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Yea but like you said deer, "ladder", kid jumps out in front of you or something unexpected and winters stop a lot faster. People "out drive" their all seasons following the winter tire crowd. I assume most of the accidents are started from all seasons but I have no stats


----------



## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

I bought new snows last year. the sidewalls were so soft, it made the car unsafe. I actually replaced some suspension parts in error. it was the crap tires.
We had a couple of storms after I switched back to my summer tires, and I felt much safer with the summers. I have the soft snows for sale now, but I have a bit of a conscience about it. Buyer beware if getting used... you might be buying mine
I have been pricing better quality snows on a set or rims... best I can find is $1600.. yikes. I found a set used for $1200. wow
I wonder if just two on the back, old school style would do. My car is rear wheel drive.
My dad always just put them on the rear.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

What car? I just got 1 year old 225/40/18's sport winters for $1000 on 18" OEM BMW rims. There were 3 similar sets available, 1 set slightly more used went for $750. Anything car related costs a fortune here these are at least $3000 new. I check the date stamp when I buy used on the sidewall. The rubber is good for about 5 yrs

RWD cars often have staggered rims but that's a horrible idea in winter, as is only putting winters on the rear. Sure you'll have the traction to accel, but you'll get serious understeer and the oversteer when you throttle. Front tires aren't used to go, but they are used to turn and stop


----------



## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

I've been using the miata tire calculator to find compatible sizes. I have 235/50/18's on 5X114.3 common offset rims so seems it would be easy to find. But, when I search Kijiji, I find other people have "wanted" ads for what I seek... I'll have to be hawkeye and be ready to pounce if I want any kind of deal. 

Lots of tires on Kijiji that look like they have been around the earth many times over. Others have ads up, but don't respond or want to talk on the phone for an hour... 20 minutes of chit chat to find out : do you have them or not? what's the tread depth?.... frustrating


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

hystat said:


> I've been using the miata tire calculator to find compatible sizes. I have 235/50/18's on 5X114.3 common offset rims so seems it would be easy to find. But, when I search Kijiji, I find other people have "wanted" ads for what I seek... I'll have to be hawkeye and be ready to pounce if I want any kind of deal.


Yea 235/50/18 is specialized sports car sized I imagine not as common in kijiji. I've had no issue finding standard winters on kijiji but those would be harder to come by. You can really play with the sizes my OEM summers are 275/35/19 and recommended winters are way smaller 225/40/18 or 225/45/17. I know what you mean about the calls, I've had people call just to talk about motorbikes etc

Maybe try a local forum for your car. My local forum was really strict to join but it makes a nice community to buy/sell.


----------



## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

@andrewf, actually I believe that Quebec requires snow tires on vehicles! And in snowy and hilly places (like NL), it's pretty dangerous (for you and others) to drive with summer tires.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

To be honest, though, I haven't put my snows on yet. It was 18C on my way home today. I usually put them on in late November, off again mid April.


----------



## LBCfan (Jan 13, 2011)

mode3sour said:


> RWD cars often have staggered rims but that's a horrible idea in winter,


Elaborate please. What is a "staggered rim" and why is it bad?

Edit to add:
What RWD cars have it?


----------



## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Here in Toronto I'd be 100% behind some driver education for dealing with the snowy season. There are so many really awful drivers. 

The first snowfall of the year...more than half the people forget how to drive. 

As for going up hills and going down hills safely people are so dumb. I once spent over an hour on a side street waiting for all the dumb people to clear out of the way.

Literally people were stuck on the hill, and other people went up behind them and stopped right in the middle of the hill and got stuck too. Some of them did it several times. 

Tip: if you see a bunch of stuck people on a hill all spinning out wildly DO NOT FOLLOW Them, wait until the clear the road, give yourself a bit of a run and do not stop on the hill. Keep slowly motoring on until the hill is behind you.

If there is a stop sign on the hill, so you have to stop... thank your city planning department.


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

LBCfan said:


> Elaborate please. What is a "staggered rim" and why is it bad?
> 
> Edit to add:
> What RWD cars have it?


Staggered Rims is a term that defines larger rims and tires on one end of the car (usually the rear).

Example:

Front rims are 18", rear rims are 20". 

In this scenario, the front tires are thinner and smaller, where the rear tires are thicker and bigger.

This is great for traction in the summer on a RWD car, because the wider the tire, the more traction you will get with a RWD car.

However, as I said previously a couple pages back, a WIDE tire is not your friend in the snow - a skinny tire is.

So now you are mixing RWD in the snow - Which is horrible, with RWD in the snow PLUS+ Staggered Rims (aka, wider tires in the back).

Basically, your back tires are just going to float above the snow and spin.

Also, Staggered in the snow is more dangerous because the principles and physics of the front and rear wheels are different. You are more susceptible to sliding or fishtailing everywhere, especially while turning.


----------



## LBCfan (Jan 13, 2011)

OK, AFAIK and I only know it from you:

staggered rims mean different wheel diameters
Also different wheel widths
Am I correct so far? If so, can you give me an example of an ordinary production car (say a 2005 Mustang, or 2006 Sunfire) that has this "problem"?



> Also, Staggered in the snow is more dangerous because the principles and physics of the front and rear wheels are different. You are more susceptible to sliding or fishtailing everywhere, especially while turning.


As a certified expert, you can tell us about it? Your PhD (M. SC) or whatever is in what field?

[That was unnecessary] Just tell us why your previous post is more than your opinion?


----------



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Those who say "I live in southern Ontario, all seasons are good enough" are missing the point. I lived there for many years and had snow tires for most of them. They dramatically improve your stopping distance. Yes, adjust your driving, but if it's icy you need as many things working in your favour as possible. Snow tires are SOFT, which offers better performance in the winter and in the snow. "All season" (aka summer) tires get hard when the cold weather comes.

Shop around. Some shops will store your tires for you. A place near me does that. I don't have a place to store the old tires.

I bought the winter wiper blades last night. I'll install them tonight.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Berubeland said:


> The first snowfall of the year...more than half the people forget how to drive.
> 
> Tip: if you see a bunch of stuck people on a hill all spinning out wildly DO NOT FOLLOW Them, wait until the clear the road, give yourself a bit of a run and do not stop on the hill. Keep slowly motoring on until the hill is behind you.


Laff! I once saw that on a hill on Carling Ave here in Ottawa because of
traffic lights changing. . It had snowed very wet slippery snow and the salt trucks had not come around yet. The traffic light was at the top of the hill,
and a long line of cars and one of those articulated OC Transpo buses
had to stop on the slope of the hill behind the cars at the stoplight.

The cars started to spin and slide around, the bus started to spin and
almost came around in a jackknife fashion. The bus driver realized what
was happening and stopped right there and locked the brakes, but
the bus was now taking practically 2 lanes and although you could get
around the bus, the cars were not moving because they were spinning.

It was a comical sight. I was walking on the slippery sidewalk up that
same hilll when I saw that.



> If there is a stop sign on the hill, so you have to stop... thank your city planning department.


City planners never consider winter conditions. Years ago, you could get
snow-ice tires with carbide studs on them..great for those difficult traction
situations (like stopped on a hill), but the studs were doing a lot of damage
to the city streets and provincial highways, so they banned use of studs..
except in Northern Ontario, I believe.

FWD have a chance with all seasons because the engine weight is right
over the front wheels, but RWD..unless you have snow tires and some
weight in the trunk or cargo box,
... it's "slip, sliding away"..everything you're near your destination..you're slip sliding away.... (song by Paul Simon).


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> Basically, your back tires are just going to float above the snow and spin.


Yes, you want to avoid low profile wide tires in winter months..because the
weight distribution is right across the contact patch of the tire, so less
weight on a given square inch of contact surface compared to a higher profile
skinnier tire which concentrates more vehicle weight on a smaller contact
patch. 



> Also, Staggered in the snow is more dangerous because the principles and physics of the front and rear wheels are different. *You are more susceptible to sliding or fishtailing everywhere, especially while turning*.


I've always owned RWD vehicles and found that for those instances where
the turn is done on a down slope or very slippery intersection, it is better to disengage the driving wheels with neutral selected and steer into your
corner first., 
Braking can be accomplished with more control that way, and the
RWD vehicle will steer around the corner much easier. 
This is basically an unpowered slow turn with the momentum of the 
vehicle carrying you through the turn, until the front wheels are straight again, then you select Drive and you are on your way.

If you do the same thing with the rear wheels still driving, the vehicle tends to fishtail and front wheels will slide on you...especially if you hit the brakes while negotiating the turn. Works for me.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

LBCfan said:


> OK, AFAIK and I only know it from you:
> 
> staggered rims mean different wheel diameters
> Also different wheel widths
> ...


Why does he need a PhD to understand high school physics?..

2 winters on the rear end would induce a vehicle to understeer if you took a turn too fast. 2 winters on the front would induce a car to oversteer, and likely spin as the rear has no grip. It unbalances the car and most mechanics would refuse to install 2 winters instead of 4 because they either have a conscious or fear legal responsibility.

To a lesser extent staggered rims does the same thing, unbalances the car. The reason sports cars are sold with staggered rims is too look cool, and maybe slightly better accel grip in the summer if any. It's mostly aesthetics, same as big rims. Most RWD sports cars come with staggered rims. Any serious race team will swap to the smallest diameter rims they can possibly fit over their brakes. Cars are built for magazine specs and marketing rather than function

Normally you would have to drive very hard to the car's limits to notice under or over steer in the summer so it doesn't matter. Understeer is claimed safer to "protect" amateurs from going too fast. In the winter it's very obvious at much slower speeds. The wider staggered rims will just spread out to weight of the car. This lowers friction and lets tires float easier on snow and slush


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> Why does he need a PhD to understand high school physics?..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

LBCfan said:


> OK, AFAIK and I only know it from you:
> 
> staggered rims mean different wheel diameters
> Also different wheel widths
> Am I correct so far? If so, can you give me an example of an ordinary production car (say a 2005 Mustang, or 2006 Sunfire) that has this "problem"?


These cars don't have a "problem" at all. These cars are engineered this way for a purpose and are not meant to be driven in the snow.

Only higher end cars come stock with staggered wheels. Higher class BMW's and Sports Cars. Mode's BMW may have came with Staggered, but I'm not 100% sure.



LBCfan said:


> As a certified expert, you can tell us about it? Your PhD (M. SC) or whatever is in what field?


As I have (and still do) race cars, this is more knowledge than anyone would ever possess by claiming to have a certification which was only granted by reading about vehicular physics in a textbook.



LBCfan said:


> Just tell us why your previous post is more than your opinion?


Sorry, where in my previous post did I state I was expressing my opinion?

*In my opinion,* it looks like I was stating facts.

For those who needs some "textbook" material on the subject:

eHow - Staggered Wheels for Dummies


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Back to the understeer/oversteer formula..specifically related to mismatched
tires and not having snow tires on all four wheels in a FWD vehicle.

In my haste to construct a balanced equation (see my previous post), I
overlooked the fact that *this has to be a differential equation.*

The vehicle has a differential that allows for different radius (radii) on any
curve for each driving wheel. The wheel on the inside path radius will turn slower (less distance to cover), and the wheel on the outside path radius faster (more distance to cover). The torque however, should be spread equally between both wheels, based on the crown gear and differential
spider gears freewheeling or driving... well at least while there is friction between the contact patch on' the tire and the road surface. 

If friction is not present then the wheel that loses friction/adhesion with the road surface will spin and that leaves the torque delivered to the rear wheels on the curve to be unequal complicating the vehicles entry dynamics into the corner/curve and exit parameters. 
Limited slip differentials do help a bit in this case.

In a straight line, with full tire adhesion, the torque is spread evenly across
both tires and the vehicle will move forward in a straight line..unless one
of the tires breaks adhesion and starts to spin (wet surface). At that point
torque is no longer distributed evenly between the two propulsion tires
and the vehicles handling chances dramatically. Posi-track differentials
is the key here, but they have to be disengaged on curves, because of
the difference in the turning radius each wheel has to travel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_(mechanical_device)


----------



## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

andrewf said:


> I've used all-seasons through the winter before, I think describing them as 'downright dangerous' is a bit strong. You can't drive aggressively, but you can't with snow tires, either. That said, when I got a new car, I opted for snow tires. It seems like cheap insurance to me.


I always went with decent all seasons and thought they were great. Until dating an auto mechanic. He insisted on putting a great set of winter tires on my car and I was shocked how much better traction I had. Hills in Barrie ON going to college every day I had a few chuckles at the poor schmucks unable to get through an intersection... I'd simply swerve around them (carefully and slowly) and go up the hill.

Ever since we've always had a great set of all season/summer tires, and a good set of winter tires. Both on rims so we just pay to have the installed and balanced twice a year.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

It's a real shame in my opinion that most cars come with open differentials which is essentially 1-wheel-drive, and that is the wheel with less grip. Only top end sports cars have limited slip diffs (and many don't because it's not a selling point) besides AWDs that are hard on gas. I swapped a limited slip into my FWD Honda and I was able to pull a ski doo trailer up hills on back roads. In Canada it would make too much sense to have an option for limited slip diffs to fill the gap between open and AWD but alas.


----------



## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

I think my RWD Ford's traction control does a better job than a limited slip diff. 
The end result is the same, but the traction control is less "quirky" imo
I can actually take a turn in the rain and mash the throttle, and the computer somehow works it all out for me.... even if the trans drop from 2 to 1
TC is hard on rear brakes though.... my rear pads go quicker than the fronts

My Chevelle has a positraction... basically a detroit no-spin style locker...very scary in anything but dry weather


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Mode, I agree with you on the one wheel slippage.

My car has a LSD and although I do like it, I find that if you drive the car hard they tend to break easily. (Or that could just be Mazda ). I am on my second LSD right now.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> Mode, I agree with you on the one wheel slippage.
> 
> My car has a LSD and although I do like it, I find that if you drive the car hard they tend to break easily. (Or that could just be Mazda ). I am on my second LSD right now.


Pretty much most LSD need a friction modifier added to the differential gear
oil. The LSD is basically a multiplate clutch with composite material on the
clutch plates. If you don't add an extra fluid called a Friction Modifier, the
LSD clutch plates lose adhesion and chatter and eventually break down.
http://www.syntheticoilnlubes.com/amsoil_friction_modifier.html

My Dakota has a LSD and I added about 250ml of friction modifier to the
differential gear oil the last time I had it changed (80,000Km). The lube
spec for the differential calls for it to be added. 
No problems with the LSD so far at 110K.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> Mode, I agree with you on the one wheel slippage.
> 
> My car has a LSD and although I do like it, I find that if you drive the car hard they tend to break easily. (Or that could just be Mazda ). I am on my second LSD right now.


If you're driving it hard on dry pavement then yes you're putting a lot more stress because it's not just taking the path of least resistance. I can't see it braking in normal circumstances daily driving or in the slippy snow. Didn't you say you don't fix things till they break?

Many M3 drivers complain about differential wine but the loud noise probably saves them from further abuse. The noise is from not changing the fluid or from using the cheaper aftermarket fluid. BMW strongly recommends a certain fluid with the friction modifier caver mentions and it should be changed every 50k or so



hystat said:


> I think my RWD Ford's traction control does a better job than a limited slip diff. The end result is the same, but the traction control is less "quirky" imo I can actually take a turn in the rain and mash the throttle, and the computer somehow works it all out for me.... even if the trans drop from 2 to 1 TC is hard on rear brakes though.... my rear pads go quicker than the fronts
> 
> My Chevelle has a positraction... basically a detroit no-spin style locker...very scary in anything but dry weather


Yes not all traction controls are created equal at all. I do like traction control with brakes that Ford has - in fact skilled motorbikers have used a little rear wheel brake/throttle simultaneously for "smooth control" for years. Snow is all about being smooth. I think they need a new name for that. Ford is calling it "torque steering" on the FWD Focus however true torque steer is generally done by more advanced differential. I'm not sure how they compare but wearing out breaks is probably a lot cheaper than a real differential

A locking diff would be crap in the snow for sure. Some older traction control that basically just cut the throttle were horrid as well. In the winter, you can spin the tires a bit and keep going whereas the traction control would steal all your momentum etc. Borderline dangerous on a hill in my experience. I think a lot of traction controls are programmed for only summer dry pavement and then they are too intrusive on the snow, sand or racetrack etc. If you have a switch for several situations it's probably a lot better

My 06 traction control is way too intrusive on the track, so I imagine it will be even worse on the snow. I have no settings on the fly however the BMW nerds have hacked and reprogrammed it to different settings. I've just made it a habit to turn it off, because I feel seriously out of control when it kicks in


----------



## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

It's my suggestion that everybody is focusing on the car and whizbang gizmos, when you should focus on the "nut behind the wheel".

I drove a big pickup truck for years without any problems (in fact it's the truck I learned to drive on) only to discover when somebody else drove it that it was "terrible in the snow!" I had no idea. Then I got a front wheel drive car that "was like a billy goat" in the winter. I put it in the ditch in my first winter owning it.

Then I got another fullsize truck, and have never had any problems with it, other than the anti-lock brakes, which I hate!

It's more about knowing your car, and knowing yourself. I'll take my truck with four bald tires and an oversized load before somebody else's car with all sorts of "features". 

I know what my truck does in the snow, in the ice, how it handles, how it feels when it starts to slip, how it feels slipping, and how to get it back. How the momentum carries through a turn, and how much speed is too much speed.

I'll take knowledge over technology in any conditions.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

crazyjackcsa said:


> It's my suggestion that everybody is focusing on the car and whizbang gizmos, when you should focus on the "nut behind the wheel".


Agree to some extent. But going around in winter conditions with slippery
road surfaces without proper tires is just asking for trouble.
The only thing that is keeping your vehicle under control in those conditions
is that small contact patch on each rolling wheel and surface adhesion of
the rubber..where it meets the road. Rubber compounds need to be
softer in winter for more grip at the expense of wearing out the tread
faster. 



> I drove a big pickup truck for years without any problems (in fact it's the truck I learned to drive on) only to discover when somebody else drove it that it was "terrible in the snow!" I had no idea. Then I got a front wheel drive car that "was like a billy goat" in the winter. I put it in the ditch in my first winter owning it.


FWD and RWD vehicles handle differently in winter road conditions. Most
people that switch from a RWD to a FWD will notice the difference right
away in winter road conditions. 
A RWD PUSHES the vehicle forward relying on the rear tires to 
have good traction and proper steering control on the front. 
A FWD vehicle PULLS you forward, relying on both the front and rear wheels to have good grip and traction.

If you get into a skid with a rear wheel drive, depending on your skid recovery skills and training (IE:which way to turn the steering
to counteract the rear end coming around), you can recover
a lot easier than with a FWD, where if you lose it on a slippery
road surface, most people will oversteer to correct... 
and in fact make it worse..resulting in losing steering control...
going into the ditch..or worse still!.. a head-on. if you are so unlucky.



> Then I got another fullsize truck, and have never had any problems with it, other than the anti-lock brakes, which I hate!


Antilocks, especially on on the rear wheels of the truck are there to protect the manufacturer from lawsuits from accidents.
Common sense tells you that in icy road conditions, 
you don't come up to a stop or traffic light and jam on the brakes
to stop at the very last second.

I drive a truck with RWAL brakes. 
I don't depend on the rear wheel (drum brakes) to prevent
me from rear-ending the vehicle in front. I sense the road conditions and
if slippery, I'm allowing more stopping distance and modulating the brake
pedal by fast pumping to engage and disengage the brakes.
I've been driving RWD for over 45 years and this works for me.

I know that the RWAL(rear wheel anti-lock brakes) are there on my Dakota because it has the old fashioned Bendix drum brakes which lock up sooner, but I wouldn't depend on them to keep me out of an accident..
only common sense, familiarity with my own vehicle's handling, and lots of winter experience will do that for me. 



> It's more about knowing your car, and knowing yourself. I'll take my truck with four bald tires and an oversized load before somebody else's car with all sorts of "features".


Being used to the handling characterics, turning radius of your vehicle,
suspension is a definitely a better thing. Weight distribution over all
4 wheels also makes a big difference. On slippery roads, having a good
set of snow tires and some weight (cargo or sand bags) over the rear
wheels of a RWD vehicle makes all the difference in the way it handles
and controls. 

The important thing to remember here is:
DO NOT ALLOW ALL THE WHEELS TO LOCK UP AND TRY TO STEER...
it's not going to happen if the wheels are not turning anymore!


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> Didn't you say you don't fix things till they break?


Love cars - Hate the maintenance.


----------



## LBCfan (Jan 13, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> Staggered Rims is a term that defines larger rims and tires on one end of the car (usually the rear).
> .....
> Also, Staggered in the snow is more dangerous because the principles and physics of the front and rear wheels are different.


Once again you make an unsubstantiated claim. References?



KaeJS said:


> These cars don't have a "problem" at all. These cars are engineered this way for a purpose and are not meant to be driven in the snow.


Your opinion or a warning label? Doesn't matter as most of them aren't winter driven. Since they aren't winter driven, why are staggered rims a problem?


KaeJS said:


> As I have (and still do) race cars, this is more knowledge than anyone would ever possess by claiming to have a certification which was only granted by reading about vehicular physics in a textbook.


Good for you. I too have raced cars. My experience (other than the drag strip) is with LBC's on ice using both "whatever tires are available" and "bolted" tires. 


KaeJS said:


> Sorry, where in my previous post did I state I was expressing my opinion?


Sorry, me bad, anything you say is a fact.



KaeJS said:


> My car has a LSD and although I do like it, ... (Or that could just be Mazda ). I am on my second LSD right now.


Is that an RXx?


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

You're right staggered wheels aren't winter driven very often. They're for looks unless you have an F1 front aileron to balance the grip.

If wide arsed staggered were better for snow, than surely some winter rally cars would use them? They all use a narrow squared (non staggered) setup. Why do you challenge KaeJ for references when you only give anecdotes of amateur racing?

Swedes:










Fins:










Norwegians:










Polish:


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Latvians:










Czeck Republicans:










Urm... English?










and Québecois:










And North of Montanians use "whatever tires are available" as long as they are bolted? You can't use bolted tires on the street, but you can use narrower tires and they are cheaper to boot


----------



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Well, winter blew in here a few weeks ago, right around the time of this thread. I've got the studds on now and had to inflate the tires a bit due to loss of pressure account colder air. You still have to be careful how you handle the car, start coasting a bit earlier as you approach stoplights etc. There is also added weight in the trunk. We'll see how it goes as we get dumped on with lots of snow in the coming months.


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Didn't see this thread was updated.

*LBC,*

I don't need to answer to you, bud.

You can take a Basic Physics 101 class for about $300 online. You may wish to consider enrolling yourself in one of these courses.

We don't need you to be flipped over in a ditch on the side of the road, now do we? 

*mode,*

Those pictures gave me the jitters. 

I'll take the Red Lancer that the Swedes have, please.


----------



## Kim (Jan 10, 2011)

I am getting new winter tires for my vehicle 235 80R17 and on one of the brands I looked at had a similar tread to the treads on the cars in the pictures ( inside of tire has a straight groove compared to outside half of tire which had diamond? grooves ) Please excuse my tire description terminology I am not versed in it. So maybe those are the better ones. I am currently looking at the Nokian Rotiiva ( Kal Tire only carries it ) or the Bridgestons W965 ( commercial truck winter tire ). 

One thing we do when the temperature drops is put synthetic oil in our vehicles.


----------



## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

changed antifreeze in both cars today (the KIA got a new powersteering cooler and hoses and a new radiator - Rock Auto rad only $80! - perfect fit)
pressure tested the cooling systems, cleaned the battery posts and terminals, load tested batteries and tested alternator output. 
Going to get a new battery for the Ford (battery failed)- 850 CCA Energizer from WalMart looks like the best deal at $97. 
loving this summer like weather in November.


----------

