# buying a new house - some real-world advice please?



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

ok, as some might notice, I've started a couple RE threads here lately. truth is, wife & are have been looking to make a move for a couple years now. we think we may have finally found the right house, in the right location, in the right price range.
It's an older home (1958) that has been re-modeled from "the studs up". we viewed it today & wifey gave it the thumbs up - which was the first major hurdle! ( I can pm the actual listing...if anyone cares enough to see it).
I'd really appreciate advice on how to proceed with an offer from some of you RE "moguls" in here, who have a lot more experience than me. I'll try to be brief here initially, and I'll try to provide any more info. or answer any questions.
The house was bought last year from orig. owner & re-built & being sold by what I believe to be reputable parties. (this -St. John's- is still a small town, & i've been around long enough to think I have an idea who the 'good' and 'bad' guys are...
The renovator & RE agent are brothers.
Our RE market has tanked last few years, so its a buyers market.
House was listed at $399000. Had a conditional sale , but fell thru (which i believe is truth)
Now back on market at $389000. The renovator brother was doing the Open house today, and end of visit i asked him what they would consider for a quick sale before Xmas. He said $375000.
Now, I'd want to get this house for as LOW as possible...I don't mind insulting people with my offers! lol
Some questions:
how low an offer do you think is TOO LOW? what are the pros & cons of offering too low?
What sort of loose ends (if any) would i need to clarify with seller to determine what IS & ISN'T included in the price?
How can i satisfy myself that all work is good & up to code etc,. other than just taking their word?
He asked if I was working with another agent - which I'm not...what does that mean to them ...in dollars & cents?
How quickly should I go in with an offer...Christmas ... slow time ...etc?
What conditions (if any) should I include in offer? if I make my offer fairly "unconditional" ie , no financing, not conditional on me selling my current home...in other words"CASH" -what's that worth to them in $$$?

I'll leave you with that for now.
One part of me really likes the feel of this house.
But another side really wants to be happy knowing i got a "GOOD DEAL"!

As mentioned, I'd really appreciate some input on this from my learned CMF friends.
Feel free to PM me if you wish.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

First off get a realtor. 

Next have that realtor run a report of sales in the same area for similar places going back say a year. This will give you some idea of what the house should sell for. Pull a history of the place as well, you’ll know what they paid for it. Look at the original listing pictures, judge how much the renovations should have cost, give them a bit of profit, unless the market is really dead and you think they are desperate to sell even are a loss. There’s your price range. 

Do not hire the listing agent as your realtor, especially if he has an interest in the property...huge conflicts of interest. 

Go down to the city and pull permits to see if things were done properly. No permits may come back to haunt you. There should be inspection tickets on the breaker box or plumbing. 

Christmas and end of the year are usually a great time to buy. People want money and want it off the books before next year. 

Unconditional means there is no doubt, for some that’s good, however a minor request doesn’t really change much. 

As for what you can offer, what they will accept, will anything you do or don’t do really matter...that can only be answered by the Ur realtor may tell you your offer is too low,,you don’t have to believe him, the only one who knows is the seller. If you offer $100k, it will be rejected though and no one would take you seriously.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

thanks JAG. 
I was thinking of not getting a realtor? much of that info. you mention re sales in area, their cost ($220K Oct./18) orig. listing pics etc.etc. (neighbor guesses the prob put upwards to $100K??? into renos) I already have, or will get on my next visit to the Registry of Deeds ( I go there often for RE INFO, not just for this house...)
most recent 6 sales in area: 2017-2015: $539k 420k, 335k,267k, 325k, 462k.
I thought keeping another realtor out of it would mean they wouldnt have to split commission, so could shave a few $$ off the price?

given above, is it fair to ask what kind of an offer you'd go in with, if you were me?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Next have that realtor run a report of sales in the same area for similar places going back say a year. This will give you some idea of what the house should sell for. Pull a history of the place as well, you’ll know what they paid for it. Look at the original listing pictures, judge how much the renovations should have cost, give them a bit of profit, unless the market is really dead and you think they are desperate to sell even are a loss. There’s your price range.


Interesting that this is the same "work" that an appraiser would do for a few hundred, but a buyer's agent does for x% which would be 5 figures

I've always used a buyer's agent because it's covered by work and they are good for lining up multiple viewings in a compressed amount of time (days) in an unfamiliar location

For someone who already found a place on their own.. heck I would knock $10k off the offer but still hire a lawyer, inspector and maybe appraiser.

For someone who isn't comfortable with filing out the paperwork (about as complicated as any form) I would look for a more realistic agent's fee


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

m3s said:


> Interesting that this is the same "work" that an appraiser would do for a few hundred, but a buyer's agent does for x% which would be 5 figures
> 
> I've always used a buyer's agent because it's covered by work and they are good for lining up multiple viewings in a compressed amount of time (days) in an unfamiliar location
> 
> ...


not sure what that last sentence means m3


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

It varies by province but there is typically a form to make an offer on a house. This is something the buyer's agent would fill out for you for that cool 5 figures. They basically ask you the questions on the form and fill it out. Not rocket science imo.

I imagine there are agents who would take a more realistic fee for this service, and I believe there are many services popping up depending on the province who will guide you through the simple process for a much more realistic fee, I've heard of buyer services for hundreds



> What precautions should be taken when purchasing a home without a real estate agent? *Buying a house without a real estate agent involves no more risk that not*. However, purchasing real estate is an important transaction and certain precautions should be taken. Here are a few a buyer should keep in mind:
> 
> 
> *Engage a qualified home inspector *to check to the property’s condition before purchasing
> ...


IMO it is the home inspector, appraiser and RE lawyer who are the trusted professionals. The agents are there to grease the skids like a mutual fund or car salesmen


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

I should clarify that the renovator is also the owner of the house, and as mentioned his brother is the Re listing agent.
I'm planning to deal with them directly myself - no agent on my side ( prob. a lawyer). 
Is that a wise thing to do? idont see why not,but maybe im missing something?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

It isn’t wise because the listing agent is in conflict. If there are deficiencies he’s supposed to relay them to you. If there are no permits he’s supposed to relay that to you. Knowing how much you are willing to pay and what they are willing to sell for is a conflict, etc.

If you don’t understand conflict of interest, and see how it can apply here, you’ll get what you deserve in the end.

As for what I’d offer you haven’t given me any real information. I don’t know how those sales compare to your property, I don’t know the current market conditions, etc.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

true....


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

If you divulge what you're willing to settle for you get what you deserve as well. Ultimately any agent has a conflict of interest with you - they want to seal the deal to benefit themselves. I had an agent divulge to me before what offer the seller would accept.. good info for me but I feel bad for the seller trusting agents with such info. It's probably best to use a buyer's agent because that is the norm today, but it's still all very slimy


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

where does one find a 'buyer's agent'? or do you just mean another real estate agent?
is there a difference? sorry


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

jargey3000 said:


> where does one find a 'buyer's agent'? or do you just mean another real estate agent?
> is there a difference? sorry


 A buyer's agent is simply a RE agent that represents your interests. You dont pay any of the commission. Your agent gets his/get cut from the vendor (in essence a split of the overall commission paid by the vendor).

In this particular scenario, you definitely want an agent protecting your interests. Especially important given your relative inexperience buying and selling RE.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

M3s obviously has a hate on for RE agents. True they can earn large commissions for which they often do little work, but other times they can save a buyer's butt from bad deals or overpriced deals. I've always used an agent because they have the comparable data relatively at their fingertips.

Finding a good agent that will do real work on your behalf can be a challenge. Often word of mouth, and internet based reviews and type of sales activity. By the latter, I mean you dont necessarily want the agent with the most sales activity, or the one selling mostly $1M houses if you are buying a $300k house. Ask around and interview a few of them and ask how they will represent your interests.

Finally, what you want to do is buy at a fair price.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

exactly.
(but i do sort of appreciate M3's bias...)


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> I've always used an agent because they have the comparable data relatively at their fingertips.


Yes they have data (the industry protects this data for self serving reasons) This is being dismantled in other countries

But shouldn't an appraiser have the same data and know better than an agent? Seeing as it is the definition of their actual job. Both you and jag point to agents knowing the true value - but that is an appraiser's job and they cost 3 figures vs 5. And the agent has a conflict of interest to always convince you it's a good deal - if you don't close they don't eat

I've always used an agent as well but having paid attention to what they actually do it's sketchy at best


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

I am in that minority that would probably avoid a "buyer's agent", particularly in a market with which you have some familiarity, including the ability to do a bit of research at city hall, the LTO, etc. As you sense, another agent in the mix will increase costs. The commission must be shared. The listing agent will recommend to the vendor an offer from an unrepresented party over a buyer who has an agent.

Also, in my experience (limited to buying no more than about 16 properties in 3 countries) I have found that buyer's agents are not as selfless as some suggest. They too are motivated by the prospect of a commission. The only "agent" I might trust would be someone I pay to act as agent and who will be paid, by me, a fee for acting for me, regardless of outcome. So, if after all due diligence, they come to me and say the house is a piece of junk and I should walk away, I will still pay that agent the agreed fee, regardless. 

I did the independent agent thing once. Years ago, when I moved to Los Angeles. I was new to LA, to living in the US, etc. I was as green as grass. A sitting duck. While renting, I asked around. I was referred to a retired fellow who had been a realtor, property developer, etc., in LA. I paid him for his time and expertise. He showed us around different parts of town. He had a wealth of local knowledge about each. He went through a number of houses with us. Some he identified as worthy of further consideration and some he suggested be ruled out, and gave sound reasons why. We were looking to spend about $600,000 US, which was quite a bit 25 years ago. We wanted no headaches or regrets. We were happy to pay him for his time and knowledge, there never being any thought of a commission at stake. We ended up with a place we loved, lived in the 3 years, and still have. We still stay in touch with our hired gun. He's 84 now. 

As for quantum of offer, in my own limited experience, in general, an offer within 10% of asking price is a "serious" offer.

But, take the foregoing with the proverbial grain of salt. By experience, there is probably only one here worth heeding. JAG has probably purchased hundreds of properties, Canada-wide, over decades. His savvy and experience outweighs that of all the rest of us combined. I admit to being a dilettante.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Mukhang pera said:


> But, take the foregoing with the proverbial grain of salt. By experience, there is probably only one here worth heeding. JAG has probably purchased hundreds of properties, Canada-wide, over decades. His savvy and experience outweighs that of all the rest of us combined. I admit to being a dilettante.


I would also imagine someone who is constantly in the RE market like JAG would have a different experience entirely with agents than someone buying/selling once in a blue moon. The agents are kind of a necessary evil today but at least in some provinces that is changing fast


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

...mukhang, you express some of my sentiments better than I do myself...:satellite:
(BTW...what's LTO?)

I appreciate all the comments & viewpoints.....

so, dumb question:.... the list is $389, the guy mention they'd need (read: "like") to get $375k....
at this point, in this buyer's market, I think I'd be doing well to get it for under $350k
I know you all dont have any experience in this particular market, no data etc...but do you think Im being realistic?
Too low? Too high? out to lunch?
any guidance? thanks


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> I would also imagine someone who is constantly in the RE market like JAG


hello! MP is pulling our leg(s)


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

...JAG.....would you like to act as my buyer's agent in this transaction....for a flat fee of course...:love_heart:


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

jargey,

You might want to engage my services to negotiate a fee for services agreement with JAG:smile-new:


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

m3s said:


> Yes they have data (the industry protects this data for self serving reasons) This is being dismantled in other countries
> 
> But shouldn't an appraiser have the same data and know better than an agent? Seeing as it is the definition of their actual job. Both you and jag point to agents knowing the true value - but that is an appraiser's job and they cost 3 figures vs 5. And the agent has a conflict of interest to always convince you it's a good deal - if you don't close they don't eat
> 
> I've always used an agent as well but having paid attention to what they actually do it's sketchy at best


I agree an appraiser at say, $400, should be able to come up with a fair price, and they don't (shouldn't) have a conflict of interest, but they too can be off the mark by quite a bit, especially if the property does not have a lot of direct comparables. I sold a number of homes over the decades via company relocations and in cases where I considered the corporate buying service as an option to direct marketing, 3 appraisals were always obtained. Two of the appraisals would be close and it seems one would always be well off the mark, high or low. Which means, if 'we' relied only on that one appraiser, we could have been screwed. IOW, appraisers don't necessarily get it right either.

That said, if Jargey is not really well versed in RE buy/sells, he may well benefit from getting an appraiser to come up with a price.....and then use an RE agent to help with offer negotiations and closing. With Jargey's inexperience, there is simply too much to go wrong with one bro being the owner and renovator, and the other being the vendor's agent. A buyer's agent would help make sure all the right permits were obtained and reno inspections done. Especially important in a major reno of a 1958 house. Jargey needs to resist being too cheap in what may be the most and last most significant purchase of his life. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

As for possible price, I have no idea of what the local market is, except to understand prices have softened and it is a buyer's market. $350k might be possible, but that seems too low for a final negotiated price. See what an appraiser says first.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

jargey3000 said:


> ...mukhang, you express some of my sentiments better than I do myself...:satellite:
> (BTW...what's LTO?)
> 
> I appreciate all the comments & viewpoints.....
> ...


Before reading your post I was thinking something around $350,000 would be a good price to offer.After your post the other day and seeing the current market drops I doubt they will have lots of traffic in winter.I would put on your poker face and give them this offer but say you have another option if they cannot accept that price ,I would ask for everything you want if it not nailed on ask for that too .


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I’m not a big fan of realtors either. Never have been. That being said, I deal with a lot of appraisers are well, also not a big fan of them. For example, a bank sends out an appraiser for every offer that is “subject to financing”. Low and behold, 99% of the appraisals come back within 10k of the offer price. However, you take that exact same property to the bank as a clear tittle for refinancing and the appraiser comes back with a totally different number. 

I do use realtors for my purchases, I’ve also done purchases without a realtor, I’ve double ended deals, never seen any price benefits of one strategy over the other. Not all realtors are alike, it took me a long time to find the ones I use. I do get a lot of benefits from the ones I use, especially when looking for places, so I don’t begrudge their commissions. My commission payments are only a couple hundred dollars anyway as I buy below 100k usually. That only gives a max of $3500 split between two. Lately I’ve been buying closer to 50k. So I can’t really complain. 

In your particular case, there are potential issues which a good realtor may be able to help you with, a bad one wouldn’t. You also don’t have the experience to ask the right questions, or even know what the right questions are. That’s why I’d suggest you find and use a good one.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

You are correct on that JAG ,my last refinance in Georgia was for $30,000 less than identical home sold next door as once you own it they seem to tighten things up.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Yea the appraisals are bs as well (just like stock analysts, you're best to do your own due diligence) The difference is the appraisal costs hundreds and an agent costs 5 figures

I always get an appraisal because work relocation pays for it and I also noticed that they basically take the average of a few comparables and copy/paste into a fancy report

I feel like the buyer's agent just gives people a false sense of confidence. I mean they basically encourage you to seal the deal and feel good about it regardless. Like any other sales job


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

A realtor doesn’t cost the buyer anything if the price doesn’t go down because you didn’t use one. Many double Enders are still collecting the full commission. If you do it yourself, can you be sure they dropped half the commission? 

With an appraiser you know for sure you’re out several hundred dollars more than you paid.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> If you do it yourself, can you be sure they dropped half the commission?


Depends on the region but I've heard of people negotiating with the listing agent. Some agents were offering kickbacks or gifts for the double ender or any referrals/sale - very slimy

There's some emerging fee based services disrupting this sham in the US but it hasn't really caught on in Canada yet


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

Mukhang pera said:


> jargey,
> 
> You might want to engage my services to negotiate a fee for services agreement with JAG:smile-new:


....talk about slimy!...:satellite::crushed:ig:...lololol....
I thought RE agents & lawyers were bad,! heeheher


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

Mukhang pera said:


> Also, in my experience (limited to buying no more than about 16 properties in 3 countries) I have found that buyer's agents are not as selfless as some suggest. They too are motivated by the prospect of a commission. The only "agent" I might trust would be someone I pay to act as agent and who will be paid, by me, a fee for acting for me, regardless of outcome. So, if after all due diligence, they come to me and say the house is a piece of junk and I should walk away, I will still pay that agent the agreed fee, regardless.


Indeed, when you stop and think about it, it's in the seller's agent best interest to get the seller to lower the price so the sale happens. And it's in the buyer's agent's best interest to get the buyer to bid higher so the sale happens. Of course they're just as happy if it's the other side which moves their price. But the thing to remember is that it does not affect them significantly either way as long as a sale happens.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I agree most selling agents turn on the high pressure, get the deal done motor so they can Get paid. However, in this particular case, the selling agent is related to the seller and has a monetary interest in the property. Two huge conflicts to getting a good deal. He may have also helped in the renovations, make a third huge conflict. Legally he has to disclose all known deficiencies and irregularities, has he done so? If he hasn’t produced the permits for the renovations or disclosed they were done without the proper permits, he’s already in violation and should be reported.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

jargey3000 said:


> ....talk about slimy!...:satellite::crushed:ig:...lololol....
> I thought RE agents & lawyers were bad,! heeheher


What’s that saying about you that, in a free choice society, he picked me and didn’t even consider you, an actual lawyer. Bottom of the food chain there muk.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> What’s that saying about you that, in a free choice society, he picked me and didn’t even consider you, an actual lawyer. Bottom of the food chain there muk.


 (no personal offence meant, muk)


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Does that mean you were only insulting the profession then?


Don’t worry about it Jargey, it’s a well established fact that muk doesn’t like me and thinks I lie about my real estate holding. Hes tried a couple of times to set up a “popularity contest” between us on here. Probably very insecure as he needs to be popular on an anonymous message board. He’s not the only one. He too, has a democratic right to be wrong. As prices come down and more people like you start doing what I do, the idea that “you can’t do that” gets weaker and weaker. Of course, for people like sags and muk, it’s true, they can’t do what I do because they don’t even try. They are limited by their own minds.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

let's try to keep this thread from straying off topic....
so faf, so good.....lol


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

And I was just about to bring up UBI....


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> And I was just about to bring up UBI....


UBI....???t


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I suggest taking a step back.

First of all, RE agents are no different than any other profession, some are good, some are bad and some are outright crooks. You could say the same about auto mechanics. But when your car needs repaired, you can't spend your time arguing over whether some are crooks or not. If you need one, you try to find a good one and get on with it.

I am 100% in agreement and cannot imagine anyone however much or little experience they have in real estate disagreeing with Just a Guy in regards to the potential for conflict of interest with the owner/renovator and the listing agent being related. It doesn't mean they are not 100% honest and intending to sell at a fair price, it simply means the POTENTIAL for a conflict of interest in terms of no one being their to look out for your interests but yourself, EXISTS. In my opinion it would be foolish to ignore that.

Next I suggest a step back in regards to your stated wish to 'just get a good deal'. There is a point at which GREED exceeds common sense and I don't think you would be wise to go there obviously. Not using an agent is something you obviously think may save you some money. It might and it might not. Again, you have no way to know that. But if you let greed push you in the direction of risking having no one looking out for your interests but yourself, that could end up costing you more than you think it might save you.

I would follow the advice to try and find a good agent. Yes, bad one's exist but that is no reason to not look for a good one. It's like ASSUMING you can't find a good auto mechanic so you decide to pull out the engine from your car and rebuild it yourself. Yes, you or I might be able to do with with some research into how to do it on the internet or a good 'how to' book but the chances of missing something are going to be a lot higher than if you hired a good mechanic to do the job.

Good agents earn their money just like anyone else who is good at what they do. Find one. There may not be any problems and the agent may tell you that the seller is asking for a reasonable price at $375 and suggest you offer $365 and be happy if it is accepted. What you don't want to do is go it alone; buy it and then spend the next couple of years having trouble sleeping at night because you are worried about what you may have missed and is going to come and bite you in the butt one day.

All anyone can do is the best they can, accept that they have done that and be content with that. Step back, take a deep breath and do your best with an agent to help you do that. That's my two cents worth jargey3000, invoice is in the mail.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

On reflection, I would like to add one more step back you might want to take.

What a house is worth is primarily objective in that the market does decide what the MARKET value is at any given point in time. But it does not tell any of us what a particular house is worth to us as an individual. You write that you really like this house and your wife is in agreement. LIKING a house is a subjective value not an objective value. So how do you put a monetary value on that?

When we walked into our current house to view it originally, I turned to our agent after taking 2 steps inside behind my wife and said to our agent, 'she's going to say this is the one.' I KNEW my wife would love this house as soon as we walked in the door. We decided and made an offer within an hour. The house was nowhere near perfect, it needed quite a lot of renovation but it was the right size, the right layout, the right location, the right property in terms of garden, etc. It just felt right and a 'perfect' house in what it would be, even if not in what it currently was.

Later, I realized through casual conversation that one of our neighbours believed that 'the previous owner bought for a lot less, put a bit of money in and sold at a big profit.' I would debate perhaps just how big the profit was but in reality that did not matter. We wanted the house and we bought it for a price that WE were willing to pay. And we were happy with that price. Only we could decide what the house was worth to US.

Of course at the same time as our neighbour might think we paid several thousand too much, it also became irrelevant 10 years later when our house is now worth twice what we paid for it. That perhaps few thousand too much we paid has become peanuts today and the 10 years we have spent enjoying living in the house cannot have any price put on it at all.

You wrote, "_truth is, wife & are have been looking to make a move for a couple years now. we think we may have finally found the right house, in the right location, in the right price range._" That matters. I'm still saying find a good agent to help insure there are no major issues you aren't aware of but as to price, well, what it is worth to you is not totally market dependent. If you can see yourselves being happy living in it for a relatively long time, it's worth what you are WILLING to pay for it and this is one instance where I say don't let your head have complete control of ruling the cheque book. It's not an investment you are just buying, it is a HOME.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

....thanks for the input, LTA.....this time, I DO appreciate your comments....:satellite::love_heart:


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

so, coupla updates....I toddled down to City Hall today, had a nice little chat with a bldg. inspector.
all the permits - bldg., plumbing, electrical- seem to be in order, no red flags. they even got a permit for the new rear deck(apparently, not everyone tells the city about these things lol)....so...I take all that as a positive, as opposed to a negative....
Now, despite all the good advice, I'm still wrestling with the idea of bringing in a buyer's agent to assist me...versus going it alone...
I'm generally getting a good 'gut feeling' about the people involved, and the work they do....I believe at this point, they are not the type that are out to screw people...
I'm leaning towards its a case of 'what you see is what you get'.
what, specifically are some of the things the agent could ask or do, that I might not be capable of doing myself, that might justify his what? $8-9000 fee??
I still need some convincing I think...what am I missing...?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I would contact the listing agent and mention that you are interested in viewing the place but you haven't signed an agreement with your own agent yet. He/she will salivate at the potential of a double ender and should therefore give you full attention. You want to leave open the possibility of getting your own agent, as now they have to convince you otherwise.

Depending how the viewing goes and how the agent plays this, take it from there. I would mention to the listing agent that you are looking for a buyer's agent and see what they say. If they try to convince you to go with them I would maybe pry "hmm how does that work with the commission, is there any benefit for me?"

Being from the east coast and having lived in small towns I find the pressure is a lot lower than say Toronto. One house I bought from an older gentleman who I met at the viewing. He knew more about the house than any inspector or agent and and I found it refreshing change from the typical guarded professionals in between.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

If he’s related to the seller and a part owner, he should wave the entire commission.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

haha...thanks m3s
so, if we do get to the point that i do want to make an offer, without a buyers agent ...what's the procedure then, what are the steps , paperwork involved, who actually draws up the offer, any conditions etc. etc?


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> If he’s related to the seller and a part owner, he should wave the entire commission.


i have no indication the agent is a part owner...


sidenote: jeez, i hope neither of them is trolling around the CMForum ! yikes!


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

You seem to think this process is extremely complicated, it’s not. All you need to do is fill out an offer sheet. Any realtor a can do it. Any person can do it, but may have problems finding a form without a realtor. Offers aren’t complicated to fill out.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

ok...any suggestions on how I could get my hands on an offer sheet in this case, without having a buyer's agent?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

jargey3000 said:


> what, specifically are some of the things the agent could ask or do, that I might not be capable of doing myself, that might justify his what? $8-9000 fee??
> I still need some convincing I think...what am I missing...?


Why do you think there is a fee to you? The buyer's agent doesn't bill you. It comes out of the seller's commission. Some argue that if the vendor and purchaser can agree on splitting the 'fee', everyone comes out ahead. True, but that is only if you are able to negotiate the right price to begin with. Remember that the vendor and his agent know the market better than you do. You are negotiating from a weak position when it comes to fair price if you don't have the data to support your position..

A buyer's agent might be better able to ascertain what the vendor paid for the property, what has been market appreciation (or depreciation) since then and how long ago, and what would be a good estimate on on how money the vendor put into the full reno. The vendor is not going to sell at zero profit (or a loss) and obviously will want to maximize HIS profit. 

Personally, I don't know why you are trying to be penny wise and pound foolish. If this is a HOME that you are buying to be happy in for a long time, it is a HOME and not a property investment. Whether you pay $10k too much, or too little, today means pretty much nothing 10-30 years from now.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

jargey3000 said:


> ok...any suggestions on how I could get my hands on an offer sheet in this case, without having a buyer's agent?


The listing agent will have them but then you are beholden to the listing agent...the brother of the vendor. Check online to see if you can actually get a blank of the offer sheet for the local RE Board.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

...yes, "fee" was a poor choice of words by me, I meant his commission, or his "Cut"....
I'm looking at trying to eliminate that cut in my bottom line cost of the house
I guess everyone is different....$10000 must mean more to me than others , Not that we cant afford it, I'm afraid i've always been penny-wise , hard to change...obviously...I'd just rather try to keep in my pocket - so to speak! I'm not sure i see the value of what an agent would bring to the table - in this partic. case, sorry...


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> The listing agent will have them but then you are beholden to the listing agent...the brother of the vendor. Check online to see if you can actually get a blank of the offer sheet for the local RE Board.


yeah, thought about that...
so if the agent gave me a copy, I'd be beholden to him.....for a sheet of paper?.....BFD????? no?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I googled and here's an example of what the NFLD form probably looks like.. every province is different

This one says it can only be filled out by a realtor. The real estate industry is extremely protective and hasn't been cracked in all provinces

The listing agent would have a contract for commission % from the seller. It might already be a reduced commission


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

thanks m3s, yes that form looks familiar!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

jargey3000 said:


> ...yes, "fee" was a poor choice of words by me, I meant his commission, or his "Cut"....
> I'm looking at trying to eliminate that cut in my bottom line cost of the house
> I guess everyone is different....$10000 must mean more to me than others , Not that we cant afford it, I'm afraid i've always been penny-wise , hard to change...obviously...I'd just rather try to keep in my pocket - so to speak! I'm not sure i see the value of what an agent would bring to the table - in this partic. case, sorry...


You are assuming you know the vendor's bottom line and can adjust offer price by the amount of the commission in your favour. The truth is you don't know that number at all, and he will never disclose that to you. You'll never know whether you got some of that, none of that, or you have been hoodwinked into even paying more. I agree a buyer's agent won't know either but the buyer's agent should have a better idea of that than you based on data available to the realtor, and if acting in your best interests, potentially get a better price than you can. You will never know either way, but since you obviously think you know the magic numbers, I won't harp on that any more.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Just a Guy said:


> What’s that saying about you that, in a free choice society, he picked me and didn’t even consider you, an actual lawyer. Bottom of the food chain there muk.


What got you riled? Suddenly this thread has devolved into a chance for you to display your unabashed contempt for me.

I suggested that jargey retain you as his agent. I came out and said I nowhere near have your credentials for the task. I have never denied that you "do what you do", but the idea of spending a lot of time to pick up cheap, distressed properties across the country leaves me cold. And I am not interested in continuing to acquire and acquire more, long after my needs and wants are satisfied. You, apparently, see it as you mission in life to end up with the most properties, the most cash flow, well beyond most. Well, that is fine. If that's the source of your personal fulfillment, go for it. But does that mean that those of us who choose not to seek to emulate you are somehow "deniers" of your approach and its validity? And where did I ever say "you can't do that?'. 

For some time now, I have been at a stage where I have substantial financial independence. I own rental real estate, two homes, a limited amount of stocks, some forest lands, which is something that has captured my interest in recent years. Why are you not a logger JAG? Afraid to try? Probably not, you are content with what you have, are you not? For the rest of us, who are happy with what we have, why not leave us alone? In my case, I have have some fortunate breaks in recent years and now have sufficient income and assets to take care of me and my family for however long that might be required. We probably live at a standard a bit above most Canadians and for my family and I, we are entirely comfortable with our lot. What we have provides income and security and, while we could keep on accumulating, that too comes at a cost. More to manage. And what for, if surplus to ones's needs and wants? I honestly cannot think of a doggone thing I might have done or acquired in the last few years, if only I had more money. 

And as for popularity contest participants, who is number one in seeking adulation here? You endless soliloquies about how successful you are as an investor in many fields, not just RE. Successful companies, with services as yet undescribed, constantly in demand. In how many threads have you regaled us with tales of how you were injured and pulled yourself up by your bootstraps and built a fortune against all odds, and in a way that puts lesser mortals to shame. Your non-stop bragging about how you have raised kids who would make Greta Thunberg pale in comparison. As toddlers, they were problem solvers and organizers. They never said "I can't". They were cooking epicurean meals by age 6. They started successful businesses while still in diapers. They will be worth far more than you, you say, before age 25. They are world-class athletes. They are an unstoppable force, thanks to the steady hand of you guiding them. Small wonder that most of the rest of us here seldom, if ever, mention our kids. Compared to yours, they are an embarrassment to us.

I should probably wrap this up. I am sitting at an airport in Taipei at this writing and, the free airport wifi to which I signed on says it's good for 2 hours of connect time only.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

....boys....BOYS!.....give it up willya?....or at least take it elsewhere....


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

...now, ahem, back on topic....
any thoughts what my next move(s) should be ....?


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## the_apprentice (Jan 31, 2013)

m3s said:


> I would contact the listing agent and mention that you are interested in viewing the place but you haven't signed an agreement with your own agent yet. He/she will salivate at the potential of a double ender and should therefore give you full attention. You want to leave open the possibility of getting your own agent, as now they have to convince you otherwise.
> 
> Depending how the viewing goes and how the agent plays this, take it from there. I would mention to the listing agent that you are looking for a buyer's agent and see what they say. If they try to convince you to go with them I would maybe pry "hmm how does that work with the commission, is there any benefit for me?"
> 
> Being from the east coast and having lived in small towns I find the pressure is a lot lower than say Toronto. One house I bought from an older gentleman who I met at the viewing. He knew more about the house than any inspector or agent and and I found it refreshing change from the typical guarded professionals in between.


This is solid advice. Highly recommend this!

If you need paperwork to submit a deal on your own, I can gladly provide you with that too. Although looks like m3s has posted that too...


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> Why do you think there is a fee to you? The buyer's agent doesn't bill you. It comes out of the seller's commission. Some argue that if the vendor and purchaser can agree on splitting the 'fee', everyone comes out ahead. True, but that is only if you are able to negotiate the right price to begin with. Remember that the vendor and his agent know the market better than you do. You are negotiating from a weak position when it comes to fair price if you don't have the data to support your position..
> 
> A buyer's agent might be better able to ascertain what the vendor paid for the property, what has been market appreciation (or depreciation) since then and how long ago, and what would be a good estimate on on how money the vendor put into the full reno. The vendor is not going to sell at zero profit (or a loss) and obviously will want to maximize HIS profit.
> 
> Personally, I don't know why you are trying to be penny wise and pound foolish. If this is a HOME that you are buying to be happy in for a long time, it is a HOME and not a property investment. Whether you pay $10k too much, or too little, today means pretty much nothing 10-30 years from now.


At this point AltaRed it seems clear that being 'penny wise and pound foolish' is what jargey3000 intends to do. I've noticed many times in various kinds of forums, that some people will APPEAR to ask a question but then only want to hear the answers they want to hear. In this case, I think jargey3000 is happy to hear any responses that say, 'yeah, you can do it yourself'. Other answers simply get a, 'thanks, but'.

So also at this point I would say jargey3000 has been given a fair amount of decent advise on all aspects and there is no point in continuing to repeat what has already been said by anyone. I for one will simply accept that jargey3000 has made up his mind to go it alone and to be fair, he has done as much research re permits etc. as can be done. 

I also bear in mind that in the small town where I live, a home builder or renovator cannot stay in business if he is unscrupulous. It's too small a market and a reputation for some 'shady' dealings will quickly put somone out of business be it a builder/renovator or just an auto mechanic. That is in fact a plus in a smaller market. I never worry about whether a plumber, electrician, roofing contractor, etc. is going to rip me off in my town. 

So if jargey3000 is happy with what he hears about this renovator and wants to try and save some pennies, I say so be it. Time to move on. The only thing I think anyone responding now should be doing is making suggestions as to what jargey3000 should be doing in that regard. I have no personal experience in going it alone and so can offer no advice in that regard. I leave that up to others.

All I would add jargey3000 is that you get on with it. Even in a slow market, there is nothing to say someone couldn't come along and make an offer today while you are still humming and hawing and spending time in this forum. Go make your offer. As I noted earlier, in the long run and assuming you stay in the house for several years, any amount you might end up overpaying will not matter anyway and the same is true if say you discover a year from now that you need to put in a new furnace or fix a leaking bathtub. 

You have the money, you want the house, get on with it before someone else does.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mukhang pera said:


> Small wonder that most of the rest of us here seldom, if ever, mention our kids. Compared to yours, they are an embarrassment to us.


I'm glad to see you (as any lawyer would) qualified your comments re kids by saying, 'most of the rest of us'. I for one would gladly stack my children (I hate that word kids, I always think of goats) up against anyone else's children.

So I'll thank you for the opportunity to brag about my sons. The younger one was captain of pretty much every sports team he was ever in and also coached lower level teams in his spare time. The older son also captained some of the teams he was on and did well but the difference between the two was that my younger son just seemed to do it all without any real effort while my older son had to work at it. That same difference in personalities and abilities is why my younger son just seems to let things happen without worrying and my older son is the more practical and thoughtful of the two.

I was disappointed when both chose to go to work after high school and not pursue further education. Both had good enough grades and finance was not an issue but they both wanted to get out there, earn their own money and 'leave the nest' as soon as possible. However, it has not hurt them in the long run and only shows that while an education is a good thing, a superior intelligence and experience can go just as far.

My older son started on Bay Street in Securities. He insures that everyone is playing be the rules on Bay Street, like a cop. He now regularly speaks at symposiums and conferences worldwide. My younger son went into banking and is now an Executive VP(Canada) for one of the largest international banking corporations. Both earning well into the mid 6 figures. Both now nearing their own early retirement. 

Oh yeah and one final thing, my johnson is bigger than Just a Guy's johnson. :tongue:


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

jargey3000 said:


> ...now, ahem, back on topic....
> any thoughts what my next move(s) should be ....?


Make up your mind as to what you want to pay and pull the trigger already. Stop over analyzing.

Don’t worry, I don’t read the long diatribes anymore, 40 pages to say something that could be done in one sentence. Wasn’t worth my time I discovered.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Longtimeago said:


> .
> 
> Oh yeah and one final thing, my johnson is bigger than Just a Guy's johnson. :tongue:


Not sure why you needed to look...then again, since I have 4 kids and you only have 2, I’d say I at least got to use mine twice as often as you did. 

I’m sad for our kids lta, for they’ll be the ones expected to pay for the other who lost their union jobs when their strike closed the plants. It’s unfair of us to expect them to have to learn to stand on their own feet when they lose their jobs. For parents to educate their kids on other ways to make money. Totally unfair by any liberal definition.

Fair is to have the successful pay for the deadbeats.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

jargey3000 said:


> ...now, ahem, back on topic....
> any thoughts what my next move(s) should be ....?


Geez, fish or cut bait already. Get on with it. M3s has a sensible approach.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> Not sure why you needed to look...then again, since I have 4 kids and you only have 2, I’d say I at least got to use mine twice as often as you did.
> 
> I’m sad for our kids lta, for they’ll be the ones expected to pay for the other who lost their union jobs when their strike closed the plants. It’s unfair of us to expect them to have to learn to stand on their own feet when they lose their jobs. For parents to educate their kids on other ways to make money. Totally unfair by any liberal definition.
> 
> Fair is to have the successful pay for the deadbeats.


Who said I only have 2? I'm far from sure just how many I have 'sired'. Given my not to be discussed past and how much I used mine, their number could be 'legion'. I will also neither confirm nor deny that a movie was made about me. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2387559/

As for who will pay in the end and whether it is fair, well not to get religious here (I'm an agnostic personally), the bible does indeed say that God will punish the children for the sins of their fathers and I have to presume that if we put that in more modern terms that includes any political, economic, or any other kinds of sins we commit. So yeah, our children 'to the third and fourth generation' according to the Second Commandment will be punished for our sins or Sags sins.


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