# Tax "freedom" day in Ontario is one day later this year



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Just when you think you've paid enough taxes to all levels of gov't for just about everything that is taxable...reach into your pocket and pay a bit more this year.
I'm sure that when the next Ontario gov't starts spending, it will only increase to a later date again.

Tax freedom day by province 2014


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Ha, the term _tax freedom_ day always cracks me up - _*there is no tax freedom *_!
I know what it means, of course, but IMO it is just a misleading gimmick.

CPP & EI are not a tax (which they include in their calculations of tax freedom day).
Income taxes, GST, property taxes, etc. are indeed taxes, and they continue all year long.


----------



## brad (May 22, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> Ha, the term _tax freedom_ day always cracks me up - _*there is no tax freedom *_!
> I know what it means, of course, but IMO it is just a misleading gimmick.


Yeah, I always feel like the people who celebrate tax freedom day should try spending the rest of the year deprived of government services -- no more traffic lights, no more police, no more medical care, or maybe move to some anarchic third-world country for the last six months of the year where there are no taxes and no services so they can see what a freedom from taxes existence really feels like.


----------



## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

If you care so much about tax freedom, move to Somalia where there is no government or taxes.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

slacker said:


> If you care so much about tax freedom, move to Somalia where there is no government or taxes.


You have a point "slacker", but then you have to put up with trigger happy Islamists, pirates, starvation, lack of medical services, filth, corruption, and other ugly human situations.....
on the second thought..I'll just pay my taxes and shut up!:biggrin:


----------



## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

carverman said:


> You have a point "slacker", but then you have to put up with trigger happy Islamists, pirates, starvation, lack of medical services, filth, corruption, and other ugly human situations.....
> on the second thought..I'll just pay my taxes and shut up!:biggrin:


Yabbut, it's not _all_ negative....you also have dengue fever, malaria, Rift Valley fever, schistosomiasis, hepatitis and typhoid. :encouragement:


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Nemo2 said:


> Yabbut, it's not _all_ negative....you also have dengue fever, malaria, Rift Valley fever, schistosomiasis, hepatitis and typhoid. :encouragement:


..and don't forget starvation. So if the above doesn't get you..the last one will. I never seen any obese people in Somalia..wonder why?


----------



## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

carverman said:


> I never seen any obese people in Somalia..wonder why?


Perhaps they strongly support NYC Mayors' Bloomberg & de Blasio's ban on supersize soft drink sales?


----------



## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> CPP & EI are not a tax (which they include in their calculations of tax freedom day).
> Income taxes, GST, property taxes, etc. are indeed taxes, and they continue all year long.


Seems a semantical distinction to me. I am forced to pay CPP and UIC and might or might not benefit in some roughly proportionate way from those plans down the road. I am forced to pay the other in your opinion "real" taxes and I might or might not benefit in some roughly proportionate way from roads, libraries, medical etc. I see no practical basis for a distinction other than obfuscation. Maybe the health levy in Ontario is not a tax too, because McGuinty called it something else.

(On another point not related to Harold's comment) I also don't see the need for "Canada is a wonderful place regardless of level of taxation so just shut up already, otherwise your choice is Somalia" binary take on things. One can both hold that no government is a bad idea and too much government is also a bad idea. Many including me think we have too much government. The tax freedom day I think is an expression of this frustration, not a call for anarchy.

hboy43


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

hboy43 said:


> Seems a semantical distinction to me. I am forced to pay CPP and UIC and might or might not benefit in some roughly proportionate way from those plans down the road.


You are right...CPP is not a pure pension plan.
There is an element of social welfare programs built into it.
Similarly, EI is not pure unemployment insurance...there are social welfare programs built into it.
So, yeah, both CPP and EI have tax-like components built into them.

My point was that contributions into a retirement plan should not be considered a tax.
Similarly, insurance premiums per se are not a tax.



> Maybe the health levy in Ontario is not a tax too, because McGuinty called it something else.


Oh right...I forgot about that.
It is not a tax...it is a _premium_ :rolleyes2:



> I also don't see the need for "Canada is a wonderful place regardless of level of taxation so just shut up already, otherwise your choice is Somalia" binary take on things. One can both hold that no government is a bad idea and too much government is also a bad idea. Many including me think we have too much government. The tax freedom day I think is an expression of this frustration, not a call for anarchy.


^ + 1


----------



## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Well put hboy.

Additionally, if I were to live in Somalia I'm sure the 40k/year that I wasn't paying in taxes would buy me some nice security and medicine and imported food so that I wouldn't be suffering too badly :biggrin:


----------



## brad (May 22, 2009)

peterk said:


> Additionally, if I were to live in Somalia I'm sure the 40k/year that I wasn't paying in taxes would buy me some nice security and medicine and imported food so that I wouldn't be suffering too badly :biggrin:


I think the point is that if you lived in Somalia, you'd be earning a tiny fraction of what you earn now; you'd be lucky if you had $1K to your name. Warren Buffet, who argues that rich people should pay more in taxes, likes to point out that if you dropped him into a developing country, he wouldn't get very far and he certainly never would have become a billionaire. He became a billionaire because he happened to be born in a country that has enabled billionaires to exist. And according to Buffet, government (and taxes) played a pretty big role in making it possible for him to achieve what he's done.


----------



## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

peterk said:


> Well put hboy.
> 
> Additionally, if I were to live in Somalia I'm sure the 40k/year that I wasn't paying in taxes would buy me some nice security and medicine and imported food so that I wouldn't be suffering too badly :biggrin:


Obviously you've never been to Somalia.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

uptoolate said:


> Obviously you've never been to Somalia.


+1, I was going to say the exact same thing :biggrin:


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The way I figure it is this.........

The poor don't pay taxes.

The rich and corporations pay taxes.........but have many ways to avoid paying their "full" share of taxes.

The middle class lunchbox worker.........has few opportunities to avoid paying taxes.......and has them taken immediately from source.

The politicians...I don't care who they are....should fix the tax leakage from the wealthy and corporations, before cutting expenses or raising taxes. Tax deductions for businesses is abused to a ridiculous level.

But.......are ANY of the leaders talking about addressing that issue? 

Not that I am aware of.


----------



## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

sags said:


> The poor don't pay taxes.
> 
> The rich and corporations pay taxes.........but have many ways to avoid paying their "full" share of taxes.


Yes, the poor do not pay taxes. That is why they are unconcerned about supporting such a blatantly wasteful enterprise as the Ontario Liberal Party.

I guess my wife and I are wealthy at > $2M net worth, I wonder how much tax we pay in a year ...

Wife income tax $21000
My income tax $5000
HST on annual taxable expenditure of $40,000 $5200
property $3100
wife's payroll (don't really know the number here I have not worked in years ) $5000
Shareholdings $1.8M, avg PE 15, avg tax rate 25% $30,000

Total $69,300

Now my WAG above might be high by $20K, might be low by $20K. But even with that very wide band of uncertainty, our annual total tax load exceeds all other annual expenditure combined. Some here consider it not enough. So how much more should we be taxed to meet your definition of fair?

I believe that including an estimate of corporate tax paid on my behalf is fair game because if they did not pay the tax, the money would accrue to me. Others will have a different take on these semantics and that is fine. I don't intend to debate the point.

Then consider that I live a lower lifestyle than even some so called poor: one car, annual booze about $300, biggest TV is 24 inch CRT, 5 to 7 year old computers, one cell phone between us and it is not a smart phone, 1600SF house, shoddy home furnishings, etc.

Are we not just patsies? The Ontario voters have spoken and they hare quite happy to continue the wasteful Liberal ways. But "I get the government I deserve". How do I deserve this abuse?

Maybe I should choose poor: $1M new yacht and annual costs of $100K would chew down the net worth in a decade or so.

Anyhow that is the "rich" guy's take on things.

hboy43


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

hboy43, haven't you heard - Ontario hates "rich" people.

Last year, rich was defined as annual income of $500K and marginal taxes were raised.
This year, $220K is the new $500K.
No, wait, it is actually $150K.

_The Ontario Liberal budget released Thursday jacks up the personal income tax rate by 1.56% on those earning more than $150,000 a year, 
and by 3.12% for people making more than $220,000._

Within the next 2 years, "rich" will be defined as annual income of $100K...


----------



## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

HaroldCrump said:


> Within the next 2 years, "rich" will be defined as annual income of $100K...


Won't be long before 'rich' is defined as having _any_ money, period.


----------

