# Dishwasher detergent, cost per wash



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I notice that a lot of people buy those bags of individual use dish detergent, the ones that come in small packets (pods?) that you pop into the dishwasher. I suspect they are very expensive.

So I counted how many loads I got with traditional dishwasher powder. I wanted to share what I measured. I used a 2.12 kg box of generic powder. This is not the cheapest kind, and you can get cheaper powders at Loblaws/Superstore. I counted 58 loads in my standard dishwasher (fully filling the detergent cup)

= *27 loads per kg of powder*

The $4.19 box of mid-grade powder got me 58 washes = *$0.072 per wash*.

In comparison the cheapest 'powerball' mega packs I found go for $0.13 per wash.

So it seems to me that dishwashing powder is much cheaper than the pods/powerballs. By quite a bit: about 50% cheaper per wash even when I'm using a middle of the road powder. If you use a cheap powder, like No-Name, that will save even more. Note that I am fully filling the cup with powder... the dishes come out clean.

So, what do the pods get you, for nearly double the price?


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

They have a rinse agent added, at least the ones I use do, guess it keeps spots off and it works well. There are three different colours in each tablet- a white and blue layered body with a red pellet on top- never really looked at what the different substances do but it was a pretty good deal. Cost me about $9 for over a year's worth. Good to know there are cheaper choices though.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ah, I see, so there may be a chemical advantage relating to spots or something. Interesting.

The one that cost you $9, how many units are inside it and do you remember where you bought it?


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

Yeah, to compare the two you'd have to add the cost of rinse agent. I can't remember what that costs, nor how much you'd use in 58 loads, but I would think you'd still be cheaper than the pods.

Same with coffee makers - single serving coffee makers are all the rage, but the cost per cup is way more than making a pot of coffee.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

While this is not directly about finding the most effective and cheapest "dishwasher" detergent, would it not be cheaper to use dishwashing liquid (eg. Palmolive, Dawn, Sunshine, etc.) instead? And also washing by hands to save on water and electricity, since it's a related topic in the Frugality section? Cheers,


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Bought it at Walmart, and it has 90 pods, it's called Finish. I only eat at home once a day, so do a load every 2-4 days. So a dime or so a couple of times a week.

@Beaver- modern dishwashers are actually very efficient cost-wise, especially on the shorter energy-saving cycles. Dishwashing liquid is not usable in DWs because they create too many suds and are also a different formulation (conversely, one could not dissolve DW powder in the sink and hand wash particularly well) if that was what you were asking. 

Regarding hand washing, just to be nitpicky 'cause I can and it's fun, one would also have to factor in the energy spent on lights while you're standing there, while you can set the DW, turn of the lights, and leave the kitchen. And to get really anal, one could argue that the 15-20 minutes spent doing dishes by hand costs your time, which could be spent more productively elsewhere. And you'd have to amortize the cost of a dish drying rack over time...:big grin: Plus I absolutely hate two household chores- dishes and ironing. I have a herniated disc and find these two activities hard on my back.


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

Treehugger.com says: "These numbers indicate that it's possible to be more efficient when hand-washing, but it's pretty tough. "

http://www.treehugger.com/kitchen-design/built-in-dishwashers-vs-hand-washing-which-is-greener.html


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

indexxx said:


> ...
> 
> @Beaver- modern dishwashers are actually very efficient cost-wise, especially on the shorter energy-saving cycles. Dishwashing liquid is not usable in DWs because they create too many suds and are also a different formulation (conversely, one could not dissolve DW powder in the sink and hand wash particularly well) if that was what you were asking.


 ... okay, I didn't know as never owned a dishwasher and not going to start. :biggrin:



> Regarding hand washing, just to be nitpicky 'cause I can and it's fun, one would also have to factor in the energy spent on lights while you're standing there, while you can set the DW, turn of the lights, and leave the kitchen. And to get really anal, one could argue that the 15-20 minutes spent doing dishes by hand costs your time, which could be spent more productively elsewhere. And you'd have to amortize the cost of a dish drying rack over time...:big grin: Plus I absolutely hate two household chores- dishes and ironing. I have a herniated disc and find these two activities hard on my back


.. wouldn't pulling and loading the dishwasher put more strain on your back than just standing there to handwash for about a quick 10 minutes on a few plates/knives/cups, etc.? Unless you're entertaining a big party with lots of dishes to do, I don't see why you would need more 20 minutes ... once the dishes are washed, load them on a cheap rack (no more than $10 from CT) to "air-dry" .. no extra time for drying nor any electricity required. All green here. As for the use of extra energy for the kitchen lights, well I might as well read cook, eat, read CMF, and then wash my dishes all through one session in the kitchen. Also, I find the art of "hand-washing" can leave your dishes alot cleaner - eg. no coffee stain missed or lassagna stucked behind (unless one was sleeping or cheating in their wash). Moreover, none of that days-old food smell from a dish-washer ... :wink:

Now if washing dishes and ironing is not your thing, then that's a whole different story. I would rather do the dishes and get to play with the suds than vacuuming/mopping - now that's back-breaking to me. I don't mind ironing as it makes your clothes fresh and crispy :biggrin:.


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

Often, my dishwasher does a better job than I do because the water is so hot. Cleans and sanitizes.

It takes a long time, to do the job, but fortunately, I don't have to be there.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> While this is not directly about finding the most effective and cheapest "dishwasher" detergent, would it not be cheaper to use dishwashing liquid (eg. Palmolive, Dawn, Sunshine, etc.) instead? And also washing by hands to save on water and electricity, since it's a related topic in the Frugality section? Cheers,


Though the dishwashing liquid seems like a good idea, it is NOT. I can say this from first hand, if you over fill even a little, you could find your whole kitchen looking like a bubble bath, and the you will need to run another load because there will be soap on your dishes. 

In terms of energy, there have been actual studies that show that dishwasher use less water and electricity if they are a full load compare to washing buy hand. My colleague actually did one of these studies when she work for the energy board. She also says that assumes no prerinsing.



james4beach said:


> Ah, I see, so there may be a chemical advantage relating to spots or something. Interesting.
> 
> The one that cost you $9, how many units are inside it and do you remember where you bought it?


Once or twice a year at Costco, they have the boxes with the instant rebate. I stock up then. It was about $14 ish for 147. Normally, $21. This was the first time I bought. A few years ago, they had some promo at a store where they were on sale plus, there was a in store coupons, and I had a manufactuurs couple. It worked out to 50 cents for 14. I I bought 50 bags, so was good for a while, they didn't have ball though. 

The other point with powder is often people over fill, so if they do, your costs go up.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Retired Peasant said:


> Yeah, to compare the two you'd have to add the cost of rinse agent. I can't remember what that costs, nor how much you'd use in 58 loads, but I would think you'd still be cheaper than the pods.
> 
> Same with coffee makers - single serving coffee makers are all the rage, but the cost per cup is way more than making a pot of coffee.


A little off topic but you mentioned the coffee pods. I had to build a business case to get one of those single serve machines for work.

What I found in my research is there is one company that had the refillable cups at the time. The commercial pods are about 7-9 grams of coffee, but some are a finer grind, whereas the refillable cups need about 12 grams to get the same strength on coffee. If you factored In wastage, as in our office we would often through out up to a half pot a day of not that many people were in, it was actually the same price.

Factor in the convince of not having everyone have the same coffee, it was better a better deal. 

Also, that's how I factored in getting one for home as we only drink in the whole house 4 cups a day if assuming everyone wanted to drink coffee.

Another bit of frugality.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... okay, I didn't know as never owned a dishwasher and not going to start. :biggrin:
> 
> .. wouldn't pulling and loading the dishwasher put more strain on your back than just standing there to handwash for about a quick 10 minutes on a few plates/knives/cups, etc.? Unless you're entertaining a big party with lots of dishes to do, I don't see why you would need more 20 minutes ... once the dishes are washed, load them on a cheap rack (no more than $10 from CT) to "air-dry" .. no extra time for drying nor any electricity required. All green here. As for the use of extra energy for the kitchen lights, well I might as well read cook, eat, read CMF, and then wash my dishes all through one session in the kitchen. Also, I find the art of "hand-washing" can leave your dishes alot cleaner - eg. no coffee stain missed or lassagna stucked behind (unless one was sleeping or cheating in their wash). Moreover, none of that days-old food smell from a dish-washer ... :wink:
> 
> Now if washing dishes and ironing is not your thing, then that's a whole different story. I would rather do the dishes and get to play with the suds than vacuuming/mopping - now that's back-breaking to me. I don't mind ironing as it makes your clothes fresh and crispy :biggrin:.


No, it's actually more uncomfortable to stand on a flat surface with arms and neck down and forward for a period of time than to bend up and down pulling dishes out. Plus I just find those two tasks drudgery- I NEVER iron (unless I've got a job interview), I pull my shirts right out of the dryer and onto hangers. Not crisp looking, but no wrinkles. Besides, by the time you put a coat on and drive to work, your shirt looks the same whether you iron or not.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... okay, I didn't know as never owned a dishwasher and not going to start. :biggrin:
> 
> .. wouldn't pulling and loading the dishwasher put more strain on your back than just standing there to handwash for about a quick 10 minutes on a few plates/knives/cups, etc.? Unless you're entertaining a big party with lots of dishes to do, I don't see why you would need more 20 minutes ... once the dishes are washed, load them on a cheap rack (no more than $10 from CT) to "air-dry" .. no extra time for drying nor any electricity required. All green here. As for the use of extra energy for the kitchen lights, well I might as well read cook, eat, read CMF, and then wash my dishes all through one session in the kitchen. Also, I find the art of "hand-washing" can leave your dishes alot cleaner - eg. no coffee stain missed or lassagna stucked behind (unless one was sleeping or cheating in their wash). Moreover, none of that days-old food smell from a dish-washer ... :wink:
> 
> Now if washing dishes and ironing is not your thing, then that's a whole different story. I would rather do the dishes and get to play with the suds than vacuuming/mopping - now that's back-breaking to me. I don't mind ironing as it makes your clothes fresh and crispy :biggrin:.


Aso, one could argue that the extra metabolic energy expended doing dishes by hand would require replacement with food, incrementally increasing your food costs over time!! And hand-washing dishes may also necessitate the use of 1-2 cents worth of hand lotion after having one's hands submerged in hot washing water. 

All of this is of course to justify my dislike of the chore...


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

I've been buying the packets because I thought my dishwasher couldn't take anything else? There is a little door you open and put a packet in there and close the door. I'm nto sure if one can put powder in there?

Cost is not really a concern because I eat out often and run the dishwasher about once a week. But I can see how it would be a concern for a family that runs it daily.


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

@Sherlock. Why do you think that it has to use packets? My dishwasher has a door too, but I've used both powder and packets. Not sure if there is a cleanliness difference, but the packets sure are convenient.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Been doing dishes by hand for about the last 10 years. Would not mind a dishwasher, but have no room for one.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Sherlock: that little door takes powder too. The doors looked the same before the packets even appeared on the market 

Dishwashing by hand just kills my back. I find it very unpleasant and I have friends who also say it really hurts their backs.

P.S. I love the dedication to frugality exhibited in this forum... this is awesome...


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> *1.* Though the dishwashing liquid seems like a good idea, it is NOT. I can say this from first hand, if you over fill even a little, you could find your whole kitchen looking like a *bubble bath*
> *2.* She also says that assumes *no prerinsing.*


What an entertaining thread, only Beav would 'play with the suds', LOL. 

*1. *True indeed PA, had same bubble bath once, but it was not I who put the dishwashing liquid in the machine, how about you? 

I'm with Guban, 'hot water cleans and sanitizes', which is more important IMO, as I'm not sure that chemical sanitizers do the job well enough. Unless a person wears dishwashing gloves, which I'm just guessing most people do not [indexxx, this would eliminate hand lotion after every wash, lol], I doubt dishes are washed at hot enough temperatures, which for machines range from around 120F to 140F. 

*2.* Anyway, I do both, and most definitely pre-rinse, otherwise often times you would have to rewash.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Dishwashing by hand just kills my back. I find it very unpleasant and I have friends who also say it really hurts their backs.


It hurts my back too. Going off topic, I believe the reason for this is that countertops and sink heights haven't changed in 70 years, while everyone has gotten taller. I'm 6'4 and my wife is 5'11. When we renovated our kitchen, we raised the countertops 2". Makes a huge difference. It's really noticeable when we do dishes at a friends house after a meal.
In our new house, I might go an additional inch more, to 3" above standard. Kids can get a damn stool.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Toronto.gal said:


> What an entertaining thread, only Beav would 'play with the suds', LOL.
> 
> *1. *True indeed PA, had same bubble bath once, but it was not I who put the dishwashing liquid in the machine, how about you?
> 
> ...


1. To this day no one really recalls which one of us did it. We were at a friend's place while they were out of town and about 6 of us were running around trying to clean up. Though I won't say this to the guys, there is a high probabilty that it perhaps, maybe, possible been me. I never grew up with a dishwasher, and that was my first time in a place with one. Not sure though

2. I priestronse too. Apparently some of the higher end dishwasher you don't need it.


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

I don't prerinse, but do occasionally presoak. Because I can be a bit frugal with the amount of powder I pour, sometimes I find that I have to post wash. I'm ok with that as 1) it is only a spot wash and 2) I'll take the low possibility of having to post wash vs the 100% prerinsing. 

BTW, I have a newer machine.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Toronto.gal said:


> What an entertaining thread, only Beav would 'play with the suds', LOL.
> 
> *1. *True indeed PA, had same bubble bath once, but it was not I who put the dishwashing liquid in the machine, how about you?
> 
> ...


OK, then:

1. Factor in the cost of replacing those 50-cent gloves slightly more often;
2. A dishwasher will raise the temperature of the room, meaning a couple of cents less cost on your heating bill;
3. The cost of scouring pads as well as laundering the dishcloth and the drying towel;
4. Having a dish drying rack means it must be stored somewhere, thereby decreasing your cupboard space, possibly resulting in a decrease in your ability to take advantage of as many bulk purchase savings, increasing your grocery bill and increasing the amount of trips to the grocery store by one or two trips in your lifetime, so add gas, car maintenance, and possible accident risk while on the road into the equation;
5. Your children will likely be asked to help, so they may lose 15 minutes of their precious childhood a couple times a week- cost? nothing. Value? Priceless.
6. I need to get a life...


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

I go out of my way to wash the dishes by hand. I have OA (arthritis).... and the hot water feels soooo good.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

indexxx said:


> OK, then:
> 
> 6. I need to get a life...


 ... LOL!!! See doing the dishes-by-hand (with gloves) will give you a life. Very therapeutic ... don't take my words for it - see steve41's post too. :wink:


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

indexxx said:


> 4. Having a dish drying rack means it must be stored somewhere,


Huh? Our dish drying rack sits next to the sink on its drain board; it doesn't have to be stored anywhere! 

I never had a dishwasher until 2 years ago (I'm 56); I bought it because every study I've read found that washing dishes in a machine uses less energy and less water than washing by hand, and we've been working on reducing our environmental footprint. I think we're the outliers, though, because in our case washing by hand has a lower impact.

1. We live in Québec, where electricity is both cheap and clean (nearly 100% hydro). It would take about 50 years for the dishwasher to pay for itself in energy savings; we don't pay for water so that's not a factor. And the carbon/materials footprint of manufacturing and shipping the dishwasher is far higher than any minor environmental benefit we'll get from using it. Furthermore, it came without a power cord, and I had to drive two hours to pick up one that was compatible with the unit, so that adds to the environmental footprint as well. 

2. The dishwasher has damaged the finish on nearly all my plates, which I've owned for 30 years and were in perfect shape before we bought the dishwasher. Now they're all dull and discoloured. It also damaged the bakelite handles on my cutlery, which I've also owned for 30 years and were in fine shape before we bought the dishwasher. So we continue to wash our cutlery by hand. We will eventually have to replace all my dishes, which will be expensive.

3. I often have to re-wash things that come out of the dishwasher, especially cat-food bowls, which often still have bits of food stuck to them, baked on by the dishwasher.

4. We don't have a lot of plates, so sometimes we have to fish things out of the dishwasher before we run it (we try to run only full loads). We're considering buying more plates so we don't have to do this, which is another expense.

All of these things have made me conclude that when our dishwasher dies, we probably won't replace it. It's a Bosch and will probably last a long time, but I'd say at this point we end up hand-washing about 1/3 to 1/2 of our dishes because we want to avoid the damage to their finish or we think hand-washing will do a better job.


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

Brad: you might try the "no-heat" drying option on your dishwasher. The dishes dry just as well, and they don't get so damaged.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

wendi1 said:


> Brad: you might try the "no-heat" drying option on your dishwasher. The dishes dry just as well, and they don't get so damaged.


Thanks, I'll try that! Too late for my dishes, but once we get new ones I'll try that.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

james4beach said:


> I notice that a lot of people buy those bags of individual use dish detergent, the ones that come in small packets (pods?) that you pop into the dishwasher. I suspect they are very expensive.
> ... I used a 2.12 kg box of generic powder. This is not the cheapest kind, and you can get cheaper powders at Loblaws/Superstore. I counted 58 loads in my standard dishwasher (fully filling the detergent cup)
> 
> = *27 loads per kg of powder*
> ...


My experience has been that the generic powders don't work as well as the brand-name powder - we tried it once and regretted it.

Brand-name powder is getting harder to find because of consumer preference for the pods.

You're comparing apples & oranges because the pods have rinsing agents included.

As empty-nesters, 58 washes would last us about 6 months. I don't really care whether it costs me $10/yr or $20/yr for dishwasher detergent. The difference will barely pay for a hamburger meal.

How do you measure the value of convenience?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ah, pods have rinsing agent -- I didn't realize that distinction. Good point!


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## newfoundlander61 (Feb 6, 2011)

We use our dishwasher twice a year (Christmas & Easter) for the big family dinners.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

newfoundlander61 said:


> We use our dishwasher twice a year (Christmas & Easter) for the big family dinners.


I think you win today's frugality prize.

(I was going to make some sad joke about whether you wash them in cold seawater the rest of the year; or just leave them out in the rain for the wildlife to lick; but I thought that would be tasteless.)


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## christinad (Apr 30, 2013)

I use cascade liquid and i don't find it messy or a lot of work. I guess once you use the pods it is hard to go back. I'll stick to the liquid. I read it is the dryer that sucks up a lot of electricity.


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## brad_g (Apr 12, 2013)

Finish Powerball tabs, Consumer Reports rated #1 or #2 last time I checked. 11 cents per tab when on sale (Costco or other). And I only use 1/2 a tab per load, as recommended years ago by a Miele service rep. Apparently 1/2 tab is sufficient for Vancouver's soft water - we've never had an issue with it.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Interesting post...


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

brad_g said:


> Finish Powerball tabs, Consumer Reports rated #1 or #2 last time I checked. 11 cents per tab when on sale (Costco or other). And I only use 1/2 a tab per load, as recommended years ago by a Miele service rep. Apparently 1/2 tab is sufficient for Vancouver's soft water - we've never had an issue with it.


Good to know about the water in the LM- thanks!


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

OhGreatGuru said:


> I think you win today's frugality prize.
> 
> (I was going to make some sad joke about whether you wash them in cold seawater the rest of the year; or just leave them out in the rain for the wildlife to lick; but I thought that would be tasteless.)


Actually, if the many studies comparing handwashing vs. washing in a dishwasher are correct, using your dishwasher just twice a year and washing your dishes by hand is about the least frugal thing you could do. You should end up using less energy and less water if you use the dishwasher; there's a pile of convincing evidence to support this conclusion, based on multiple studies.


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