# smoke detector question?



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

just throwing this out for comments..
I have a couple of hard-wired/ battery combination units that recently started "chirping", I assume to let me know the battery is dead.
Any harm in just removing the battery & plugging it back in?
Will it still function, with no battery? (I realize it won't during power outages)
I know its suggested to replace them every 10? years or so....but, I'd suggest that too if I was in the smoke detector business...
Comments?


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

If its hard wired, it will definitely work without a battery. As you stated, its a back-up battery so it wont work if the power is out. Its wise to keep the batteries in and a good practice it change them on a regular basis, say every Spring or Fall or on your birthday.

It is also recommended to change every 10 years. They are fairly inexpensive so why risk it....you never know, it could save a life.

Code in many regions now require a smoke detector in every room of a house....where a few years ago it was 1 per floor so fire safety is being taken more and more seriously.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

The change every 10 years is not purely marketing speak. The ionization chamber uses a ( albeit tiny but finite ) nuclear source. It has a half life, and over time as it decays there may not be enough ionization energy to detect smoke particles reliably at low smoke concentrations


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

if I do just plug it back in to the hard wire, will it continue to "chirp" the low-battery alert because there is 
NO battery? anyone know, for sure?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Carbon monoxide detectors should continuously chirp at the end of their design life.
Smoke detectors are cheap.

Sure you can save money by using an expired smoke detector, but you can also save money by not washing your hands... I wouldn't recommend that either.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

jargey3000 said:


> if I do just plug it back in to the hard wire, will it continue to "chirp" the low-battery alert because there is
> NO battery? anyone know, for sure?


Stop being a cheapskate jargey - buy new detectors. They have a lifespan, and should be replaced. Don't fool around with something so important.

ltr


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I won't get into the amount of bad luck involved, but if this fire is started via an electrical circuit malfunction, that is the same circuit, as the one running your smoke detector, the fire will work...the detector will not.

Don't worry. Those circuits usually only catch fire when they are powering expired smoke detectors and things like that. lol


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

jargey3000 said:


> if I do just plug it back in to the hard wire, will it continue to "chirp" the low-battery alert because there is
> NO battery? anyone know, for sure?


Why don't you just try it?


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## saskstu (Oct 21, 2013)

jargey3000 you are obviously single. When ever any one of the four CO2/Smoke detectors in our house chirp, I find a dozen batteries on the counter thanks to dear wife. 

These units are relatively cheap to replace . A house not so much. 

A happy wife is a happy life.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

One of our battery operated detectors was chirping yesterday. I had just replaced this one about 2 weeks ago. Brand new Kidde unit with new battery that measured 9.15V. Poor battery connections likely cause - Instead of the usual press-stud 9V connectors it has two flat springy contacts. You just push the battery in. Not very good.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

saskstu said:


> When ever any one of the four CO2/Smoke detectors in our house chirp, I find a dozen batteries on the counter thanks to dear wife.
> 
> These units are relatively cheap to replace .


I changed all our detector batteries every year before we headed South (when we could still do that!) . Local stores charge way too much for those 9Vs! I often add batteries to an Amazon order to get above the free shipping threshhold. The Amazon branded batteries are quite inexpensive and seem to be good quality.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

...and another thing... why do the annoying low-battery "chirp" alerts ALWAYS seem to go off between 2am-5am? never during the day!!


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Mortgage u/w said:


> Code in many regions now require a smoke detector in every room of a house....where a few years ago it was 1 per floor so fire safety is being taken more and more seriously.


Is that the Building Code or the Fire Code? For residential? 

So far as I know, for Ontario these are the requirements:

_Every home in Ontario must have a working smoke alarm on every storey and outside all sleeping areas.
*Homeowners:* must install and maintain smoke alarms on every storey of their home and outside sleeping areas._

After reading that, I should add one in the hallway that serves two of our bedrooms. (Non smokers, so no hazard really) 

I should check on requirements for fire extinguishers too.

I read something about smoke alarms requiring a visual indication in Ontario. Perhaps for deaf people. Something else to check!

If there is a simple chart covering requirements in Canada province by province, that would be useful.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

All my smoke detectors are the 10 Year sealed Battery Powered - Combination CO/Smoke Alarms. You can't change the battery as they use lithium batteries that last 10 years and that's also the life of the alarm. When it dies you buy a new alarm. They're made by Kidde and I get them at CTC. 

I have three on the main floor and one downstairs at the foot of the stairs. One of the ones on the main floor is directly over my bed. I see the white LED flash every 30 seconds if I wake up at night. I'm not going to burn up or die of carbon monoxide.

ltr


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

If you sleep with the bedroom door closed, you should have detectors in the room. The best ones are linked together, so if any one senses smoke, then they all sound the alarm.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> If you sleep with the bedroom door closed, you should have detectors in the room. The best ones are linked together, so if any one senses smoke, then they all sound the alarm.


I suppose so - IF you smoke in bed 

Code in Ontario does not appear to require that, except perhaps in public facilities like motels, etc


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

agent99 said:


> Is that the Building Code or the Fire Code? For residential?


It matters on the jurisdiction, I think in Ontario the "Fire Code" for these items is actually in the Building Code.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

agent99 said:


> I suppose so - IF you smoke in bed
> 
> Code in Ontario does not appear to require that, except perhaps in public facilities like motels, etc


4 people recently died in Ontario. No working detectors. It was an electrical fire.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

I am not a fan of the co/smoke combined alarms. 
CO is heavier that ambient air, so should go low for maximum sensitivity

A and smoke detectors go up high on wall or on ceiling to pick up on rising smoke. 

So how you satisfy both of these placements in one unit is beyond me.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Ponderling said:


> CO is heavier that ambient air, so should go low for maximum sensitivity


FYI ...

_CO has a molar mass of 28.0, and air has an average molar mass of 28.8. The difference is so slight that CO is found to evenly distribute itself indoors._


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> 4 people recently died in Ontario. No working detectors. It was an electrical fire.


Presumably this one. 

There were no working smoke detectors in home. Electrical fire started in dining room ceiling. 

Just meeting Ontario fire code would have helped (a lot!) i.e. Smoke detectors on each floor and outside of the sleeping areas. 

Nevertheless, still a wakeup call. They are suggesting everyone check there smoke/CO alarms this weekend. Good idea to look at other fire issues too. Just happens I just replaced all smoke alarm batteries and one defective detector.

Bedrooms are not soundproof, so alarms outside of each sleeping area in hallway as required by code are effective even if doors are closed. This unless the fire starts inside a closed door bedroom - usually caused by those who smoke in bed. Although not legally required in Ontario, additional smoke detectors in every room won't do any harm, especially if you are smokers!

We have sprawling mostly 1-level home. Detectors are in living/dining area (near kitchen), office (adjacent to laundry), TV room and on upper floor at top of stairs adjacent to attic bedroom. We don't smoke, but to meet code will add one more detector in the hall outside two bedrooms. Laundry rooms are not mentioned, but I will add one there too - Electric drier, iron and ironing board, paint in cupboard all potential hazards. Electrical fires can occur anywhere, so more detectors rather than minimum is smart thing to do.

We don't have CO detectors. We have no fuel burning appliances, furnace, fireplaces or attached garage/carport. But for those who do, CO detectors are required by law in Ontario. They say they can be located at any height on a wall, but if a combo unit with smoke alarm, should up near ceiling.

For those with upper floors, an escape plan is needed. Only occupied upper floor area, is a seldom used attic bedroom - The window is fixed and would need to be smashed from inside (or outside) then occupant could jump to ground (~9 ft) Or we could have a collapsible rope ladder. We have talked about it for years, but never done anything because of infrequent use of the room.

Having a fire hydrant close by at street and a firehall within 2km adds some security for us.

Pleased that this thread morphed into a wake up call!


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> All my smoke detectors are the 10 Year sealed Battery Powered - Combination CO/Smoke Alarms. You can't change the battery as they use lithium batteries that last 10 years and that's also the life of the alarm. When it dies you buy a new alarm. They're made by Kidde and I get them at CTC.
> 
> ltr


ltr: can you advise which specific Kidde model you get at CTC?


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

jargey3000 said:


> ltr: can you advise which specific Kidde model you get at CTC?


I have the 
Kidde Worry-Free Smoke/CO Combo Alarm.

ltr


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> I have the
> Kidde Worry-Free Smoke/CO Combo Alarm.
> 
> ltr


 thank you👍


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

agent99 said:


> I suppose so - IF you smoke in bed
> 
> Code in Ontario does not appear to require that, except perhaps in public facilities like motels, etc


I don't know what's required, but I do know when we renovated our current place, the electricians insisted on putting a detector in each bedroom, because they said it was code. They could have been wrong. If so, I am annoyed, because I would have rather had a single detector in the hallway than one per bedroom which is what we have.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Spudd said:


> .......If so, I am annoyed, because I would have rather had a single detector in the hallway than one per bedroom which is what we have.


I don't see why you don't feel it's safer with a detector right above your bed. Regardless of where a fire starts, if you have a detector above your bed, you ain't gonna burn or breath much smoke.

If you have a detector in the hall, and the bedroom door is closed, and a fire starts in the bedroom, will the detector in the hall catch it fast enough?

ltr


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Spudd said:


> I don't know what's required, but I do know when we renovated our current place, the electricians insisted on putting a detector in each bedroom, because they said it was code. They could have been wrong. If so, I am annoyed, because I would have rather had a single detector in the hallway than one per bedroom which is what we have.


The requirements for Ontario are here: The Ontario Building Code | Smoke Alarms. (Dated 2017 - may have changed since then?) It is kind of convoluted and my architect told me, along with NVC), applies to new construction. (May not be required for existing residences where the local fire code applies - For example, OFC)) The detectors are also supposed to be both audible and visual for new construction.

Sentence 3 has an "and" between a and b which would indicate an alarm in every bedroom. It also says they should be connected to AC system and have batteries as backup. Again hard to achieve in existing residences.

It is all kind of confusing with different rules from NBC, provicial building codes, National Fire code, provincial and local fire codes, and NFPA on which many of the codes are based. Maye there a straight forward summaries somewhere, but I haven't found them


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> I don't see why you don't feel it's safer with a detector right above your bed. Regardless of where a fire starts, if you have a detector above your bed, you ain't gonna burn or breath much smoke.


It's definitely safer, but I feel safe enough with it in the hallway. The detectors have a blinking light which I find annoying in the dark bedroom. Also, additional maintenance to have multiple detectors when you could have only one. I am probably also jaded by my almost 50 years of never having a house fire.


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