# Question to investors



## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Does your friends/family/co-workers know your a investor(esp self-directed?)
Most know i invest just from mentioning it etc(in passing)but by and large it is almost like a alternative life style i have and i am way in the minority(esp how it relates to how i live and how i allocate my $)

I think many of my friends/co-workers etc 'wonder' because i live simply(only renter)there is def a dis-connect from how i live to what i earn(so many of my peers direct their money towards life-style inflation-mortgage/new vehicles/kids/clothes/concerts/events/trips-regular society i guess,and here i am every year maxing out rrsp/tfsa and some no reg investments....basically i am a mid 30's guy living/spending(non investments)as i was in my early 20's(like i got left 'behind' but the funny thing is i am way ahead lol(just not outwardly)

It can be a funny place to 'be' because i don't find talking about money in social settings appropriate almost ever
example-a friend of mine buys a new snow mobile or reno's a basement and they get to 'show' it
Mean-while i am buying stocks(but it is like secretive)most wouldn't even know how to engage if i said i bought xyz stock

It's kind of lonely in the aspect,anybody relate?


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

I find the non-sharing things a little odd. Even salary - who cares? I make 66K per year - pretty shitty considering that I have a PhD. Of course, my job is super awesome so I don't really care. I could make more if I wanted to (I charge $100 an hour when I do consulting) but why bother? I like my life.

Having said that, I pay $1200 a month rent so yes - I max out TFSA, RRSP & put lots into non-registerd. Basically I'm working to get a solid nest egg (300K (currently at 160K) with 22 years out from retiring) and then I save NOTHING above my pension at work. Then I'll start living large!  Maybe not, not maxing out your TFSA each year seems like a dumb thing to do though.....

It's nice to share things that you are interested in. Hence the existence of this forum.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I have been saving 40k + a year none directed towards investments.
I guess what I am saying is in a 5 yr period(I had a home sale in there,that had large gains)I have had 200k directed to paper assets(and land)
But my lifestyle shows that there is no outwardly 200k in the last five yrs,do you know what I am conveying?(that's after tax also)
If I wasn't a investor I would be using that money on life-style inflation
My close friends and I used to talk about money/career etc but when we entered our 30's that stopped.
I don't have a problem talking about money but usually other people would rather not type thing.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Basically you want to brag about your assets.

Meh, that seems a bit small. That usually has the effect of making others feel bad - even if they have squandered their finances. It's likely best to just take satisfaction from yourself rather than getting it from others (and making them feel bad in the process).

I get your point but people value things differently. Like I said, i could make A LOT more if I wanted but I really really like my job. for example, I'm getting paid to go ice fishing this week. IT's crazy fun. I could take a job making 100K a year but that job would be crap - no thanks. Life is about A LOT more than just money.

I make more than enough to live (and save for) the life I want. Life is GREAT.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

You know, I often drop hints to people, because I want to help them. I'll mention that it's easy and straightforward to retire well, anybody can have a ton of money if they follow a few simple steps, etc. and it's always amazing to me that almost nobody asks anything about it. 

I've tried for two decades to elicit interest from those around me- particularly in my industry, where it's all cash and everyone has a lot of disposable income at a young age. I'm in the bar business, and I've always tried to get bartenders and servers into investing- it's almost like they all have an instant-gratification mindset; they just won't give up 10-15% of their income to start building for the future. I always tell them: 'Look, if you had made $10 less in tips today, you'd never miss it, so just take $200 a month and put it away (figuring 20 working days/month). i've even offered to sit with them and go over some fundamentals. And these are the people who need it most; minimum wage job, living on tips, no pension or security unless you work in a hotel or something like that. Not one person has ever done it. 

You can lead a horse to water...


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I hear what you are saying donald....

I don't mind sharing my journey, I have my blog, but I don't advertise to friends. Some close friends don't even know about it still....haven't told them.

Your comment made me smile....re: "It can be a funny place to 'be' because i don't find talking about money in social settings appropriate almost ever..."

I don't bring it up unless others do first, even then, I say very little and just listen to what others say, even when it's incorrect....

Our lifestyle is not living large by any means nor can we, because we have a massive mortgage still. Once that $200k beast is dead we'll be in a much better place to hopefully enjoy some of our hard work. 

I suppose if our bank account was fat (it's not yet) and we didn't have any debt (see mortgage debt) I could likely feel better about our situation but I feel we have a long ways to go...


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

None,nothing could be further from truth(bragging)I have a compulsion to save and invest likely from what i have chosen to do(small business owner)
I save by and large not for bragging or trying to out due anyone.
I invest because i want to call it quits by 50
Your missing what i am trying to convey
I live on about 40K a yr and that doesn't reduce me to a hermit or miser(i am not holed up)I remember reading a post not long ago how the forum agreed 40k a yr would be tough(granted that might mean a family)I do just fine on that and live a happy life....don't think you got the jest of what i am saying


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I don't hate my job either.


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

Maybe one day many people will be surprised that a simple Donald has died and left a huge amount to a hospital and a library in his will.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Forget it,obviously nobody can relate to what i am saying
Guban define 'simply'? because i am getting what you are lying down.(seems like a pot shot)


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

donald said:


> Most know i invest just from mentioning it etc(in passing)but by and large it is almost like a alternative life style i have and i am way in the minority(esp how it relates to how i live and how i allocate my $)


You answered your own question above I believe, what you're doing has no common ground with many people so there is nothing to talk about. Secondly, saving money for most is a boring subject, no instant gratification which many people seek nowadays.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

cainvest said:


> You answered your own question above I believe, what you're doing has no common ground with many people so there is nothing to talk about. Secondly, saving money for most is a boring subject, no instant gratification which many people seek nowadays.


You're kidding right ... all my wife and her buddies talk about is all the money they save ... on shoes, sweaters, coats, boots, rings, pendants, ...


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

When i socialize with my friends(i have had the same core friends since high school)and because in your 30's perhaps is a high point of consumer driven purchases.
If i go hangout and have a beer and watch the game with my buddies(once or twice a mth) conversations can revolve around consumer items i don't generally spend my money on.
A friends new car, a friends new basement reno, a friends up coming trip....
This might not have anything to do with money(i have bonds with my friends that are likely never to broken and we don't lack common interests)
It might have more to do with not being married and having babies
Every convo revolves around babies/mortgages/trips/new this or that(my friends invest,but it is a SMall amt compared to me)
If i had the same path i would likely be the same and spend all of my 80-90k income a year on my wife/family/kids etc(most are dual income couples)
My social life is different because somewhat because i go 'out' they all stay home.
different lifestyles and influences(most of my male friends to be honest seemed to be controlled and directed by their wives(shiver),and investing in paper assets are the last thing they are after)


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

rikk said:


> You're kidding right ... all my wife and her buddies talk about is all the money they save ... on shoes, sweaters, coats, boots, rings, pendants, ...


Now that kind of saving does provide instant gratification to many!


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## piano mom (Jan 18, 2012)

donald said:


> It might have more to do with not being married and having babies
> Every convo revolves around babies/mortgages/trips/new this or that(my friends invest,but it is a SMall amt compared to me)
> If i had the same path i would likely be the same and spend all of my 80-90k income a year on my wife/family/kids etc(most are dual income couples)
> My social life is different because somewhat because i go 'out' they all stay home.
> different lifestyles and influences(most of my male friends to be honest seemed to be controlled and directed by their wives(shiver),and investing in paper assets are the last thing they are after)


During our Valentine's dinner last night, I asked my husband if he is jeolous of our single male tenant downstairs coming home to TV watching, no kids and wife to deal with. He said no thanks. He loves the married life and thinks its kinda sad to be alone all the time.

But I do hear you. I have very little in common with other women i.e. shopping, nails, hair. I find it more fun and exciting to talk about money. Lol


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I was not alone last night(i have a couple of fwb)i don't lack a sex life or the Intimacy piano mom...that is a nothing convo altogether lol

I won't go there.


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

donald said:


> Forget it,obviously nobody can relate to what i am saying
> Guban define 'simply'? because i am getting what you are lying down.(seems like a pot shot)


Terribly sorry Donald, not a pot shot at all. Simply referring to another thread where a man of seemingly modest means was really quite wealthy, having invested very well. He surprised everybody when he died and left lots of money to others. He obviously didn't talk to his friends about investing and his money.

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/34986-Holy-what-a-story!


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Maybe talking about investing is just boring?

What do you even say? Yes, 20-20-20, 40 -- rebalance once per year - done. 

Sounds like a dull conversation to me. Instead perhaps try something with a little more bite like politics and/or religion.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

No worries Guban,didn't understand what you meant.
None,what i meant was-Most(a lot/decent amt)of my income in the last 5 yrs have gone into paper assets.(you can't 'see' a portfolio,you can't touch it or feel it.
I am not like this myself but lets be honest(You can thank the trillion dollar advertising industry)That what you buy is a reflection of you

I must of failed in trying to get at what i meant.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

I think so because I'm totally lost about what you're complaining about.


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## the_apprentice (Jan 31, 2013)

I can definitely relate to you donald as I'm sure most members can. I have yet to meet anybody who has a self-directed account. I've met a few individuals/friends who are beginning to invest in mutual funds, but when I ask further questions they don't remember the fund name; let alone the asset allocation or MERs. I offer advice when asked, but I am learning myself... an 'apprentice' to say the least. I never talk about my personal assets, but I do mention that investing is a hobby of mine. CMF gives me some financial stimulation. Plus, there is a great deal of knowledge on this forum (which I am grateful for) if you take the time to read.


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## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

I belong to a lot of different peer groups, some are the hand-to-mouth type, others are the make-big-$$$-spend-big-$$$, and then there are the investor types that I sometimes engage in stock-talk.

I find that with my investor friends, the talk inevitably turns into a subtle dick-measuring contest. Everyone's a Warren Buffett, nobody has ever lost money in the stock market. That doesn't interest me.

I want to know about losses and lessons learned. I want to talk to people who have insight into where the local economy, the global markets and different sectors are heading, and what they think the factors are influencing them.

But most of all, I want to hear why they think they might be wrong, errors in their assumption. Everyone wants to be a sage. You see it here on CMF just like on the outside. But it takes true wisdom to be able to draw a conclusion with caveats, and then you can change your strategy on the fly when assumptions or conditions change. Instead of going down with the ship because of the need to be right.

I like talking to people like that. But I don't know too many of them. That's what's isolating, I find.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

rikk said:


> You're kidding right ... all my wife and her buddies talk about is all the money they save ... on shoes, sweaters, coats, boots, rings, pendants, ...


 .... LOL ... and what's with all the deleted posts from yesterday (now disappeared)?


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## dime (Jun 20, 2013)

Day to day there's only one or two people at my work who even take an interest in the financial markets. That's why CMF is so great!

Unless your day job is in the world of finance, investing can be a rather solitary experience. It involves a lot of computer time in that you're always studying and staying up to date with the news, articles and analysis written by other people. A large part of it is really boring and not social, because making serious business decisions requires focus, research and desk work. It's also often kept private as people can be quite envious of other's wealth and become very judgemental / mean / rude etc. 

I know there's certainly a lot of people out there also spending quiet a bit of time each week studying the markets. Day to day, spare time can be rather limited, so some investors will spend their spare time researching investments instead of socializing and making friends.

I've been wondering if there's a local investment group / club in my area where I can get more social with others who share my interest in investing.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

Beaver101 said:


> .... LOL ... and what's with all the deleted posts from yesterday (now disappeared)?


Concluded I misunderstood donalds post ... "Forget it,obviously nobody can relate to what i am saying
" ... so I deleted them. I do have a few bar buddies that'll have a go at each other, heated but harmless, over equities, investments. Seems to be a topic good for a few minutes conversation, usually ending in something like ... "obviously you don't understand, you don't have a clue, ... " :listening_headphone


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I have the same conversations with friends sometimes rikk...money management can be a very personal and emotional thing. 

On the flipside, some folks don't care about it as a tool; getting to some sort of financial independence or destination. They have a YOLO mentality. It's doesn't make spenders wrong or savers morally right, it's just different.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

^ And there's considerable stress for a few of these bar buddies, and it shows, most if not all of their income is via the market ...


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Do you mean they are trading rikk? Or invested in risky plays?

I could see chasing the next big thing would be stressful, or having no financial plan stressful. I wouldn't be able to get much rest.

On the contrary, I don't see too much stress in a dividend stock portfolio of 20+ blue-chippers making lots of money every quarter. In fact, that would make me sleep easy 

As I get older, I recognize my thoughts regarding money and investing have changed. It's certainly a powerful tool and one that I didn't respect very much in my 20s but I have embraced this over the last decade. I'm realizing that some money-management discipline can provide both freedom (luxury of time) and security (not needing to work). Things you don't realize until you work for a living, and wonder what you're getting out of 50-hour work weeks and commuting to work every day. 

Investing money, so that money makes you money, so you don't have to work for your money seems like a much, much better plan


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

^ I'd say it's mostly their personalities ... and their trying to grow their portfolios as fast as possible ... without taking a day job. Anyway, I just move away from those conversations ... I'm out to relax, have a beer, listen to a decent band ... talking/arguing investing socially ... geez, who'd want to do that (getting back to the thread). Enjoy the day :cheerful:


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## JordoR (Aug 20, 2013)

I can relate, especially having a reasonably good financial knowledge for someone in mid twenties.

Of my few friends who do have retirement savings started (the large majority don't), very few can actually tell me what their RRSP is invested in or what funds they have. Most have just blindly gone to one of the big big banks, talked to an advisor, and are likely investing in some 3% MER "investment growth fund". (Which is still better than doing nothing at all). In particular, I have one friend who just recently deposited 20k more into his TFSA savings account (in a low interest GIC I believe) even though he already had 20k in his TFSA. I told him that he has exceeded the maximum TFSA limit - and he was shocked that the bank wouldn't inform him of this.


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## protomok (Jul 9, 2012)

I can definitely relate to the OP.

A lot of folks I talk to have little interest in discussing investing. Man even getting a conversation going about economics or business seems to be impossible. When the BOC cut the overnight rate a couple weeks ago I remember trying to talk to a few folks at work, most didn't even know about the rate cut, others clearly didn't care, and another just regurgitated a rant about not being able to trust the government, gah!

Anyway, this is pretty much why I joined CMF. Although maybe I need some new friends lol


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

I will talk to just about anyone about just about anything (menopause, anyone?)

It surprises me how little most people know about very simple finance concepts - one guy at my work thought that RRSP/RRIF withdrawals were tax-free after 65! I will share my tools, too - my little spreadsheets and ACB calculations. I think most people need to know more. But I don't try to impose this stuff on them - it is desperately boring if you are "not there yet", and supremely interesting if you are.


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

JordoR said:


> In particular, I have one friend who just recently deposited 20k more into his TFSA savings account (in a low interest GIC I believe) even though he already had 20k in his TFSA. I told him that he has exceeded the maximum TFSA limit - and he was shocked that the bank wouldn't inform him of this.


This doesn't necessarily have to be true. If previous deposits had grown to 20k, he might still have 20k of room left. Not saying that he hasn't gone over the limit, just that it's not a given.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Relevant. 
http://twocents.lifehacker.com/how-being-too-open-about-money-can-backfire-1685770679


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## banjopete (Feb 4, 2014)

I get this. Everyone cares about certain things in their lives, often like investing or retirement planning it's such a small fraction of the population that cares that it's irrelevant. I think this will change or the government will intercede more. I also think it's a bit sad that unlike most of the "buy" items in our lives that finances aren't more of an easy topic but it's hard to get around the dick measuring aspect of it. It's easy to slip into the how much do you save path then to say it must be easy when you're making $x but try doing it when you make $x instead. The main thing is that finances are something we're all pre-occupied with no matter the income level, so it would be a great thing to share with our friends and family.

I see my own problems as my own problems, I think it's a natural myopic behaviour, and it makes me think my problems are more important than yours. I'm expanding a simple concept but I think the gist is there.

I like to learn in general and it's nice to hear how other people are doing with their own experiences, good and bad of course are equally important too as some of the best lessons are learned from mistakes in my opinion.


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

lightcycle said:


> I belong to a lot of different peer groups, some are the hand-to-mouth type, others are the make-big-$$$-spend-big-$$$, and then there are the investor types that I sometimes engage in stock-talk.
> 
> I find that with my investor friends, the talk inevitably turns into a subtle dick-measuring contest. Everyone's a Warren Buffett, nobody has ever lost money in the stock market. That doesn't interest me.
> 
> ...


This is consistent with my experience. Most people I work with seem happy to farm money management out and take the 0.5-1% AUM hit. Big houses and fabulous cars that are lost on me. Some of the vacations sound great but I have always been a bit more LBYM on that front as well. It is rare to find someone who one can talk to in a productive way. I have one colleague who I talked to a lot when I was working and who I now try to take out to lunch once a month. We also try to go to the odd free dinner together - mainly for the entertainment value. His investing philosophy is quite a bit different than mine in that I am a Potato and he does things a bit differently but we are both LBYM types and our discussions are always fun and interesting. 

I agree that with the average person the whole thing is just not on their radar and with people who are into it, it is seldom the kind of frank discussion that will let you take away the important lessons.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I think I can understand the OP, my family all came from a paycheque background, my inlaws are all professionals...I've been self employed my whole life, turned to investing and lead a completely foreign lifestyle to them...

They can't concieve how I put food on the table, let along the silly idea that I could be successful. They've always looked down on us as "the poor ones" or something (since I don't buy a lot of "toys" or go on exotic vacations) and are really confused when they come over and we're eating something like tenderloin and king crab (I'm a self confessed food snob) for a regular meal. 

The family is pretty big on "image", but we don't play that game...I have no idea how successful they really are, nor do I care. I've resiggn myself to the fact that they can't understand our lifestyle, nor will they ever, so I don't worry about it. If it makes them feel better to look down on us, who am I to spoil their enjoyment...I know how I sit, and I wouldn't want their lifestyle...too much pressure to look perfect.

You have to face the fact that very few people understand a lifestyle that is not the norm, in fact it makes some people quite uncomfortable. What I did was seek out like minded people to talk to about this subject, I didn't drop my old friends, we just talk about other things...the same as I don't generally talk about kids with my single friends...it's not of interest to them usually, so I try not to bore them like some people. The world is full of different people, with different interests...don't try to force a person to share all your interests, it doesn't usually work, instead respect them for their interests.

Remember though, even in areas of "like minded individuals", there are usually dissenting opinions...I've been called a liar or had people on here try to rip my head off more than once...


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

Yes this is definitely true. Some won't understand your lifestyle in the same way that you have trouble understanding why they have theirs. The other issue I have is that outside of work, my two best friends are cops and several others are teachers... not much to discuss with people who have such great pensions. I find that they have a totally different way of looking at things.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

At our last family dinner, my sister-in-law, brought up the idea that, in her opinion, the fact that she was in such demand at work shows how successful she is. To me, the less I have to work shows how successful I am. She then went on to talk about how she had to provide for her 3 kids and thus needed to work...knowing full well that I've got 4 kids. At this point, I just stayed quiet.

There is no way for two polar opposites to understand what is important to the other. She looks down on me, I pity her...in the end, arguing won't change anything.

I know she's wrong about me, but that doesn't mean I'm right about her. If everyone did what I do, it wouldn't be possible to be successful...the world needs diversity.


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## JordoR (Aug 20, 2013)

uptoolate said:


> This doesn't necessarily have to be true. If previous deposits had grown to 20k, he might still have 20k of room left. Not saying that he hasn't gone over the limit, just that it's not a given.


Oh absolutely. I was more getting at the point, that while my friend was doing a good thing in investing in his TFSA at the banks recommendation - he didn't have a handle that yearly or per-person maximums existed. I guess I didn't make that clear.


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## fplan (Feb 20, 2014)

Donald: People like you and me ( savers) are in minority. Thats why govts and central banks are punishing savers and helping majority ( spenders) by reducing interest rates. People notice if have latest smart phone / expensive car vs having money in the bank/stock market. Because stock market is booming people think they increased their net worth by living with in their means. couple of bad years , you may feel like hell I should have enjoyed/spent that money .


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

donald said:


> *1.* I was not alone last night (i have a couple of fwb)i *don't lack a sex life* or the Intimacy piano mom...
> *2.* define *'simply'?*


*1.* Not the kind of intimacy piano mom was referring to. FWBs ≠ a spouse/family.

Everyone close to us knows I'm a DIY investor, but that doesn't mean we have active & comprehensive discussions about it, but when we do, it's obviously with those [the minority] that have same interest/knowledge, and mostly are conversations about strategies/financial news, etc., but not the size of our accounts. Such parleys can go on forever with those that share your same passion, lol. 

There are many MFs investors out there that are hurting, hence hoping to change things in the future they say, but stubbornly resist for various reasons, key one IMO being fear/lack of confidence. People prefer to stay away from things they have little or no knowledge about, rather than learn, but in fact, they hardly understand even their MF investments, which are hardly devoid of risk. For those that I know in this group, I have tried to encourage basic learning [mostly to those that ask] - some were appreciative while others expressed immediate boredom/incredulity. 

Even on this forum we have seen how fear paralyzes certain bears.

*2.* There is nothing offensive about describing someone as a 'simple' person. Quite the contrary Donald. I think you confuse the meaning of the word with being simple minded?

Recall that a famous & simple billionaire advises to live a simple life/to think simply/to invest simply.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

My point was more about 'discretionary' income(i talk about everything under the sun with my friends,that is not the problem)
What i mean is 'generally' one connects with other's from the 'same' financial station,right?
Most of my close friends(surprisingly,or unsurprisingly)earn about the same as myself(I think maybe a touch above middle class)

Here is what i meant though-because i have been saving roughly half of my income the last half decade as compared to them there is a disconnect some times.
Example:My best friend works for a crown corp and his wife works for a tsx insurance company(both have pensions)
So even though i make x amt(same as him)outwardly i am on spending 1/2 of x(because my allocation to investments is high,his is not)
So the paradox is even though my net worth is xtimes his and we earn the same employment income my 'life-style' or life-style 'inflation' lags him by a large margin

In other words i can't keep up him(i am fine with this)because he does not save anywhere near me......
From that perspective

He is not delaying consumption where i am
To be honest i don't even know where i am going with this lol
Bottom line-If you are a aggressive middle class investor saving half your earned income it costs a lot of money,you don't reap right away(and it is not shown)


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Donald....wait till you retire, your friends will at first be flabbergasted then resentment sets in.


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## Mookie (Feb 29, 2012)

I think most of us on CMF can relate to this situation. Reminds me of the book The Millionaire Next Door. Many of us probably don't have an outward appearance of success, and don't really care too much what other people think of us. I find it's better to BE a millionaire than to look like one. By the way did I mention I take the bus to work? 

Too many people around us are so caught up in getting the latest gadget, new clothes, eating out, daily starbucks, fancy cars, fancy houses with huge mortgages. If you ask them how much they're putting away for retirement, they give you a funny look and say there's no way they can afford to save.

To me, my decisions on money are what will determine how soon I can retire and how comfortable my retirement will be. Since this is very important to me, I am very motivated and interested in learning to optimize my own wealth. Most people just don't think this way. People at my work spend 10 times more time and energy on the office hockey pool than they do thinking or learning about investments.

I do talk money with my parents and one sibling, as they seem to have a genuine interest, but my other sibling is not receptive to learning more about DIY investing as they have been completely sucked in by their current "financial advisor", a slimy DSC mutual fund salesperson. 

As I get older I am realizing more and more that time is becoming as valuable as money. I don't want to spend all of my healthy years working. One day in the next 5 years or so when I retire early, I'm sure there will be a lot of surprised looks from friends and colleagues.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Donald, 

I don't think most of my friends come from th same financial situation. Most of my long time friends all have paycheques for example, I've never had one since I was a kid. Some of my "newer" friends are self employed, or even wealthy investors, but they are ones I've picked up over the years because we have that in common.

I remember chatting with a guy who was an angel investor, we were out with a group of guys, and he was going to invite a bunch of us to invest in his latest venture...I told him that, out of the group, there were only two people who'd even be qualified to do so...

He was stunned, assuming the entire group was wealthy, I said I doubted it because of the cars they drove. Aside from him and myself, there was only one guy who drove just a car, as opposed to a fancy car, truck or hummer. So he asked the group, who there was a qualified investor (meaning they had a big enough net worth to get into angel financing), turned out to only be me and the other guy I predicted by the car...

Now, that wasn't really my only clue, I can generally get the idea fairly quickly by talking to people, but it's been a fairly good first indicator over the years...


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> Donald,
> He was stunned, assuming the entire group was wealthy, I said I doubted it because of the cars they drove. Aside from him and myself, there was only one guy who drove just a car, as opposed to a fancy car, truck or hummer.


For most of my life, my car has been a bicycle. Now, we run one vehicle and my wife puts on most of the km commuting.

Every once in a while someone will ask what I do for a living. I say I am retired since 39. The more bold will then ask how I did it to which I say something along the lines of did not own a car until 35, had roommates for years, saved much etc. I don't think the conversation has ever gone any deeper except with my buddy around the corner. 

I helped him set up his TFSA portfolio in pretty conservative stuff. His wife is so risk adverse that she has been sitting on tens of thousands at 1 and 2% for years. 

I think these two illustrate the problem: people are who they are and are very difficult to change their basic nature no matter the facts. The anti vaccination crowd might be the current poster children for this idea. Al had no particular knowledge but was willing to accept that stocks do well long term and was willing to consider them. His wife won't touch them with a 10 foot pole no matter what I or anyone else says. (It is unclear to me how they can have a "his money" and "her money" with such wildly divergent feelings on investing inside a marriage.) 

People believe what they believe no matter how nonsensical. I don't see it as my job to try to persuade them that if they take on some of my characteristics and beliefs they can have an easier financial life. If someone asks I will discuss with them and maybe my situation will be relevant, but I rarely start the conversation.

hboy43


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## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

hboy43 said:


> people are who they are and are very difficult to change their basic nature no matter the facts. The anti vaccination crowd might be the current poster children for this idea. Al had no particular knowledge but was willing to accept that stocks do well long term and was willing to consider them. His wife won't touch them with a 10 foot pole no matter what I or anyone else says.


I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree that the anti-vaxxers are a good analogy. Vaccination prevents the spread of infectious diseases by a large and measurable extent. However, people lose money on stocks all the time. There is still an element of risk, especially if you don't do your research.


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## Gimme the Green (Feb 4, 2014)

Financial talks don't come up too much between myself and my friends. I will talk forever about investing/saving if asked but its rare. Most people I know just say they are invested in rrsp's, when I ask what they have in their rrsp's they usually respond "you know rrsp's".... My father in law picks at my wife and I. We are frugal and spend well within our means, he is the opposite. Makes for some interesting conversation at times.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

hboy43 said:


> 1. I say I am retired since 39.
> 2. people are who they are and are very difficult to change their basic nature *no matter the facts*. The anti vaccination crowd might be the current poster children for this idea...*People believe what they believe no matter how nonsensical.*


*1.* I believe CMF has 2 D.Fosters then. PeterK might be the next one.  

*2.* I could not agree more with the point you're trying to make, which I interpreted as the total disregard of factual evidence & the potential consequences of these.

These days, there is unyielding denialism/ignorance/irrationalism about every topic it seems, just take your pick, from diseases like AIDS, to climate/evolution/genocides/terrorism/stock markets, et al.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Day to day there's only one or two people at my work who even take an interest in the financial markets. That's why CMF is so great!
> 
> Unless your day job is in the world of finance, investing can be a rather solitary experience


Very true! Same here..... and I work in world of Finance IT


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> *1.* I believe CMF has 2 D.Fosters then. PeterK might be the next one.


My guess would be there are probably more here than you know, at least speaking of young retired people, but that's just a guess.


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## Letran (Apr 7, 2014)

Interesting thread, thanks Donald. I can't say I can relate though, at least not fully.

I can relate that there is almost no one in my circle that I could talk with in regards to the same level of investments 

Where I can't relate is that I DON'T WANT to disclose to anyone financially outside of my spouse and my bank account managers.

Careful what you ask for. Disclosure of finances (specially when you are better off) more often than not sets you at different light and that is not always favourable.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Eder-I hope not,i don't want to be in a who has the biggest 'dick' contest(excuse my french ladies!)......i will admit though being a 'male' we do do that a bit don't we

Just a guy-I don't have friends that are in the upper bracket,of my 5 closest friends-crown corp employee/commercial electrician/fire-fighter/cga/food sales(i own a construction business)I am the only one though that does not a)have a pension B)have a spouse that earns income,so maybe it has something to do with that?

I am likely not going to be able to keep up saving half my income going forward(i am building a house soon and i believe i am going to revert back to prob 15% of income saved going forward(i do have a stream of dividends chugging along now so that puts my mind at ease a bit)

I just think sometimes to myself if it is worth it(it takes a lot of effort to save as most of us likely know,esp when you do it year after year,in my case about the last 5 yrs....few people do it,hence the reason people from cmf have a understanding)

I guess what sometimes bothers me(if i self-reflect)is i have a constant 'nag' that things might not work out(l actually had a land investments somewhat implode on me,details of it anyways,all is not lost but the purpose of the land changed)

Sometimes i think why am i sweating so much about my future,my close friends don't have that same compulsion?and having a substantial amt tied up in the markets is never 'fixed'If i usually do something i like to go the full way(i don't like half measures)

One thing i never noticed when i was younger was how much capital is actually needed to maintain the same level as if some one was working,i am a dividend growth investor and it is a long journey no doubt......I just wondered the other day of what if,6 yrs ago i lived in a new house and was spending way more(these last 5 yrs i have really put my head down,it might be saving 'fatigue' like i need a holiday but than the world keeps spinning and i am not built that way.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I will be honest,sometimes i truly am envious to some degree of people who have packages/pensions
My friend who is a fire-fighter has a sweet pensions!so is my friend who works for hydro.....they just don't have to do nearly as much heavy 'lifting'
And i think they likely realize this

That is one dark-side to being self-employed....but i don't want to turn this into private vs public sector conversation.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Donald, I didn't always have wealthy friends...

As for a pension, or even benefits they've never been part of my life.

Would I have liked them? When I got injured, a social safety net would have been a big help, but that wasn't in the cards, so I had to adapt.

Since I never had them, I had to figure out ways to take care of myself. I turned to investing...when my peers weren't interested, I sought out new people to add to my social circle.

I've got old friends, rich friends, injured friends, etc.

Quit limiting yourself. If you don't like your situation, feel free to expand or change it.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I like my situation(why can't one just vent on cmf lol.not looking for advice really just airing out my thoughts.we all think of things from time to time no?I think it is healthy)

Envious might not the right word,everybody has got a different situation and i am happy(just would be soothing maybe to have a pension like firefighters or police do,it's just a conversation just a guy)


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Pensions aren't really all that - sure they match 8% of my salary which is great but it's just part of salary - nothing else. I worked out BC government pension and it work out to a guaranteed 6% return annually. I should average 7.4% with a couch potato so really I'd be better off if they axed my pension and gave me an 8% pay raise.
Whatever though, 6 - 7.4 --- who cares really - it's there and it's out of mind and i can just save my own stuff. My pension after 25 year will be about 36K per year or something, not really enough to have a super comfy retirement.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I don't want to start complaining about this(i am not)but that is a hell of a lot better than no pension!36k a yr after 25 yrs is not bad!(you are also going to have your own investments outside of that)Takes a bit of the heat off because you have a 2 prong.

I guess after this long winded speech of mine is---- it is hard building wealth!lol


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I noticed with rbc on my home page(they have a running side bar ad pumping there investments products to clients)
They have the man in the blue hat with shades on riding a surf board or something with a quote like"75 dollars a week,start dreaming'',the world is your oyster type thing

One looks at the chart a blue hat dude is riding a wave of like 180k after 25 yrs of saving/investing 75 dollars a week for 25 yrs(i am not knocking that!)
But i do know one thing that aint going to do **** for one after the dust settles and one is in retirement

I am wondering if people thin that is a large sum to retire off of?Obviously rbc has it marketed to the masses


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## SkyFall (Jun 19, 2012)

Talk to me about it!

As many probably know, I am very young still in school and work for TD.... boy boy boy! No one at my branch is really ''into'' the investment world... I mean they all have investments, but nothing self-directed.... I talked one guy into self-directing and he was the only person I was talking about financial news, etc but when he left.... man I had no one to talk about....


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> My guess would be there are probably *more here than you know*, at least speaking of young retired people, but that's just a guess.


I was specifically referring to retirees in their 30's. Sure there could be more, but from what I recall, only 2 have indicated being in this category. I know the forum has several 'young' retirees in their 40's and 50's, too, but this group isn't as rare as the former.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Donald,

Sorry, don't mean to harass you...but, being self employed my whole life, I'm the type of person who naturally looks for solutions and doesnt normally sit around complaining about problems, it's just part of my personality...probably a reason why I was successful. 

Maybe you should look into other forms of investing if you want a "pension". I look at my real estate like a pension. I didn't put any of my own money into it, but others put in minimal amounts, it grows steadily over 20 years or so, then provides a steady income after...

My businesses are accumulating deffered income which will be paid out as dividends later as needed, some of my stocks are dividend payers which provide a steady income...

Of all theses things, the real estate is the most pension like, and also the most lucrative in my case considering I didn't put anything into it except for time.

As for time to grow your wealth, I agree it takes time to start, but I was amazed at how quickly it grew once it got started.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

donald said:


> I don't want to start complaining about this(i am not)but that is a hell of a lot better than no pension!36k a yr after 25 yrs is not bad!(you are also going to have your own investments outside of that)Takes a bit of the heat off because you have a 2 prong.
> 
> I guess after this long winded speech of mine is---- it is hard building wealth!lol


Like I said, it's just salary by another name AND I could likely do as well or better (without all the strings) if they just gave me the 8% paybump. And yes, for my education level and what I do I consider myself underpaid - even WITH my pension. Anyway, I'm sure most people by into the government entitlement culture. That may have some truth in it for low level jobs but as a consequence high level jobs (those requiring a PhD) get kind of burned. I went to school for 13 years post secondary to make 66K per year (plus pension).

Anyway, at least my job is super cool and fun.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> I was specifically referring to retirees in their 30's. Sure there could be more, but from what I recall, only 2 have indicated being in this category. I know the forum has several 'young' retirees in their 40's and 50's, too, but this group isn't as rare as the former.


Oh, I wasn't trying to imply there were a lot, but as this thread indicates, I don't think a lot of people would be all that comfortable admitting it publicly either...

Most of the people on this board, where it's anonymous only give vague references to their age and net worth... It can be a hostile environment as it is here just sharing an opinion...and from going back and reading Foster's reception, I doubt many would want to come forward...

Just my opinion of course.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

none said:


> I went to school for 13 years post secondary to make 66K per year (plus pension).


Not to pick on you specifically, but I never understood this line of entitlement thinking.

Being in a rapidly changing industry, I spend hours each day learning, have my entire life, does that entitle me to be amoung the highest paid people on the planet?

Oh, how about the people who take basket weaving, calligraphy, fine arts, history, etc post secondary?

My sister-in-law uses this arguement all the time, and she's in a more respected field, but I still don't get it...you chose to go to school, there are consequences to your choices, not entitlements...


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## Letran (Apr 7, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> Not to pick on you specifically, but I never understood this line of entitlement thinking.
> 
> Being in a rapidly changing industry, I spend hours each day learning, have my entire life, does that entitle me to be amoung the highest paid people on the planet?
> 
> ...


My sister went to university for 8 years added another 2 years in college. Get this, she never held a real job in her life.


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## Letran (Apr 7, 2014)

Letran said:


> My sister went to university for 8 years added another 2 years in college. Get this she never held a real job in her life.


A little side note on the above. She is married to a multi-millionaire have 4 boys. Owns a 3mil house in avenue road paid in cash. They can both retire with enough money in the bank but instead ...she is back in school ...again.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Just a Guy said:


> Not to pick on you specifically, but I never understood this line of entitlement thinking.
> 
> .


It's not really 'entitlement' I don't think. It's more like I think the my skillset that I bring to the table should be worth more than a plumbers - that's all. Maybe that is entitlement. However, as I said, many people pay huge amounts of cash to do the things that I get paid to do so there's that. I just wish I had a big nest egg to show for it.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

What is it you do None?
Your skill-set is prob above a plumber but does society think so also?
Not that i am once again sticking up for skilled trades but this is a example why so many younger people don't want to be a plumber
If you have a family of four and your hot water tanks goes at midnight(and you know the wife and kids need showers in the morning otherwise moma bear is not going to be a 'happy' camper)This exact scenario is why plumbers make good money!has F.A to do with pay grades on a scale of intellect.
Society always dictates the market of supply and demand
Are performing the same 'needs' in society?Not attacking,just shooting the breeze


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I find so many young people look at the world through intellect and it should translate to $$$
Maybe that works well in the halls of education but in the real world it often does not work that way
even Johnny 'cheapskate' has to somewhat accept this(try price shopping when you got a water emergency.,plumbers know this-esp the 24 hr operations)
That is why plumbers make good money.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Plumber, stock broker, wallet inspector, I was just grabbed plumber arbitrarily. You are right though, society does dictate what people get paid (I would say more so than the 'market': the invisible hand can really only do so much). 

I was just saying that I thought my skill set was more unique and generally provided more value than a plumbers. You are right though - if someone has a leaker water tank at 2am - please don't give me a call. If however you want to discuss how climate change may affect natural resource usage in the coming century and better understand some of the socioeconomic trade-offs that we are going to have to make: feel free to call me between 8:30-4:30 - Monday to Friday.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Not to pick on you specifically, but I never understood this line of entitlement thinking...


I give a little more leeway to someone in the workforce, who may know what the current market rates are.

The ones I shake my head at are the ones on the bus, their conversation clearly indicates they aren't checking the market and yet expect that being near the top of their class automatically will command $80K or better ... "or it's not worth doing".

The one time I though this was likely accurate was where the commenter was working two jobs so he knew what he could make.




none said:


> It's not really 'entitlement' I don't think.
> It's more like I think the my skillset that I bring to the table should be worth more than a plumbers - that's all. Maybe that is entitlement.


Without checking what the market is paying to verify one's choice ... how can it not be a entitlement or at best, wishful thinking?

A friend thought his commerce degree should mean a certain standard for entry level jobs. He's scraping by thirty years later versus those who took the entry level jobs, proved what they could do to the company and within a short time, had been able to move into a job more along the lines of what they wanted (or relocated).




none said:


> However, as I said, many people pay huge amounts of cash to do the things that I get paid to do so there's that...


Which means the market will bear it ... regardless of what you think of the plumber's compensation and they think of yours.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

donald said:


> I find so many young people look at the world through intellect and it should translate to $$$
> Maybe that works well in the halls of education but in the real world it often does not work that way ...


I disagree somewhat ... I'd question how those stopping at the simplistic "intellect = bigger $$$" are using that same intellect to observe the market.

Seeking out an area that I enjoy, everyone else sees as a jumping off point to bigger things and avoiding the swamped areas where there's a ton of supply has paid off well for me.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

none said:


> ... You are right though, society does dictate what people get paid.


Society ... location ... abundance/scarcity ... willingness to relocate or do something different ... lots of factors will change the $$$.




none said:


> ... I was just saying that I thought my skill set was more unique and generally provided more value than a plumbers ...


This is similar to "do you have a good sense of humour" ... everyone feels that way about their work or they wouldn't have chosen it ... but they can't all be right. :biggrin:


Cheers


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Sure, I'd go with that. People always want to get paid more than they are. Having said that, this is just me being silly - sure I spent a ton of time in school but I learned a lot, I'm a better person for it, and I have a job that requires 13 years of post secondary education to do. Plus people call me Dr and Sir all the time which is pretty fun too.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I just have observed tons of people out of high school enter university(without a clear cut direction)and spend(most often parents money lol) 10 yrs trying to find themselves and even after completion still have a vague idea(society props up education so much,the specific kind ie:the business machine of universities)

A lot of times these are the kids that look down on 'johnny' in high school because 'johnny' decided to go to trades school.
Usually Johnny armed with his skill trades certificate goes out in the world and finds huge demand(again the market/supply and demand) and makes good money out the gate(for some reason people still feel sorry for johnny)

I have seen this played out in my life----i even read something where Micheal Bloomberg was asked what his advice would be for a young person,his answer was i would tell them to be a plumber lol

I doubt anyone here follows Mike Rowe(dirt jobs guy)he has been on the forefront of addressing skill trade-He makes excellent points all the time on his blog.


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## gt_23 (Jan 18, 2014)

donald said:


> Does your friends/family/co-workers know your a investor(esp self-directed?)
> Most know i invest just from mentioning it etc(in passing)but by and large it is almost like a alternative life style i have and i am way in the minority(esp how it relates to how i live and how i allocate my $)
> 
> I think many of my friends/co-workers etc 'wonder' because i live simply(only renter)there is def a dis-connect from how i live to what i earn(so many of my peers direct their money towards life-style inflation-mortgage/new vehicles/kids/clothes/concerts/events/trips-regular society i guess,and here i am every year maxing out rrsp/tfsa and some no reg investments....basically i am a mid 30's guy living/spending(non investments)as i was in my early 20's(like i got left 'behind' but the funny thing is i am way ahead lol(just not outwardly)
> ...


What are you looking for, validation? The reason people don't talk about money is because it's a tool to get the things you want, and it's those things that people like to talk about, not the money itself.


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## gt_23 (Jan 18, 2014)

donald said:


> I have been saving 40k + a year none directed towards investments.
> I guess what I am saying is in a 5 yr period(I had a home sale in there,that had large gains)I have had 200k directed to paper assets(and land)
> But my lifestyle shows that there is no outwardly 200k in the last five yrs,do you know what I am conveying?(that's after tax also)
> If I wasn't a investor I would be using that money on life-style inflation
> ...


Awww, so you want a little attention for all your hard-work and delayed gratification to be able to save $40k per year? I suppose you could write it on your T-shirt and wear it around to let people know.

Perhaps you could direct some of that $40k to charity or others who have less and that might give you some of the satisfaction you're looking for.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

gt_23 said:


> Awww, so you want a little attention for all your hard-work and delayed gratification to be able to save $40k per year? I suppose you could write it on your T-shirt and wear it around to let people know.
> 
> Perhaps you could direct some of that $40k to charity or others who have less and that might give you some of the satisfaction you're looking for.


I know right? That's sort of what I was getting from this thread too. You shouldn't have to need others validation to feel good about yourself.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

It is not about that gt-23(bad day at the office or something,relax)
I said at the end of the post 'lonely' 

If i am hanging out with my friends who are not investors i can't talk about the market because nobody gives a ****!
But the whole room can talk about how shitty phil Kessel is for hours

My point was also the life-style(of aggressive saving)
So what are you saying?Until the day comes where you are going to financially take care of me gt-23,i will do what is best for me(don't need your advice on that front)
You rather me be a drain on the system a say Yolo and be dependent in old age?


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Very few people in society are stock investors was my main point and why i posed the question(if investing was more mainstream we would not be talking over a forum,i wouldn't be here and you prob wouldn't either)

How many people in society have you come across(friends/family/co-worker's)who would/will say geez i can't wait to get home tonight i pvr'd Bnn market call vs 'i can't wait to get home' i pvr'd dancing with the stars or some other type of bull crap...example of what i am saying


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

Letran said:


> A little side note on the above. She is married to a multi-millionaire have 4 boys. Owns a 3mil house in avenue road paid in cash. They can both retire with enough money in the bank but instead ...she is back in school ...again.


Maybe she is retired, and this is how she chooses to spend her time. Is she back at school just so she can get a job or maybe she just enjoys learning.


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## SkyFall (Jun 19, 2012)

Wait im confused.... I thought it was about.... oh well didn't expect such outcome hahahha


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Donald, 

We are brought up in a society that doesn't understand investing. My parents didn't understand it, my teachers didn't understand it, heck most of my bankers don't understand it. That's why society doesn't talk about it.

Hockey, on the other hand, is played by most people, watched by most people and understood by most people...so people are comfortable about talking about it.

Often, the discussion comes up about how investing should be taught in schools...my question is who'll teach it? If they try to teach it, we'd probably get "give your money to a bank and buy a well balanced portfolio of mutual funds"...which, any real investor knows is about the worst way to invest (barring throwing darts at a stock listing). 

My kids were introduced to investing in school by having an investment contest over a month long period, best return got the best mark...so the school taught them to high risk gambling, not investing...

Their business class had no clue about running a business...

Be glad you found this forum, the reality is, there aren't many people to talk to, because there aren't many people who know how to do it.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

WHich is really unfortunate because you get 98% of the way there by:
1) Save more than you think you should;
2) Only invest in things <0.5% MER
3) Invest in everything.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

donald said:


> ... A lot of times these are the kids that look down on 'johnny' in high school because 'johnny' decided to go to trades school.
> Usually Johnny armed with his skill trades certificate goes out in the world and finds huge demand(again the market/supply and demand) and makes good money out the gate(for some reason people still feel sorry for johnny)


The key is supply/demand ... I've seen people go for a particular trade, discover supply exceeds demand and then switch to other things.
Or they didn't notice the good money was not local but a result of being willing to relocate/travel weekly to where there was high demand and low supply.


I also had a furnace repair guy say that he'd built up a stash, decided he didn't like the trade and was asking about re-training for other fields.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

donald said:


> Very few people in society are stock investors was my main point and why i posed the question(if investing was more mainstream we would not be talking over a forum,i wouldn't be here and you prob wouldn't either) ...


It's simple ... most people don't make it a priority, even where there are clear cut examples of how it can help.

Case in point - the guy who go a good job at Coke commented that when he was making less as a mover, he'd blow his money on parties and beer as he "knew" he wasn't making enough to both with. With a good salary, he put effort into it and was kicking himself that he didn't start sooner. The only difference was his perception of what was needed.




Just a Guy said:


> ... We are brought up in a society that doesn't understand investing. My parents didn't understand it, my teachers didn't understand it, heck most of my bankers don't understand it. That's why society doesn't talk about it ...


Doesn't understand or doesn't make learning it a priority?


Cheers


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

SkyFall said:


> Wait im confused.... I thought it was about.... oh well didn't expect such outcome hahahha


*Eh, you're confused?* The simmering resentment had to enter this type of discussion at some point, LOL. :biggrin:

Typically those that talk about their $s in great detail/on a repetitive basis/and when not even asked, could be considered braggadocios when there is no other message/purpose in their speeches [posts] other than personal boasting, which would offer no interest/help to others whatsoever; and when done amongst friends & even family members [never mind strangers], one should not be surprised that conversations could get pretty uncomfortable. You are not bragging here at all [and it seems you're a kind employer], but some resentment as Eder/JAG mentioned upthread is inevitable, as not everyone is in the same situation. Most people don't much care about the size of others' bank accounts & investments, but might about how you got there. I'm not talking about resentment from CMF, as it's just an anonymous forum, but about the real people you talk to. You mentioned recognizing that you didn't have a problem talking about money but that others around you did, which is not surprising since money is indeed a private/sensitive topic [even a taboo for some]. 

I think you could be listened to more, respected and even looked at as mentor by friends/family, if you were to leave the more personal financial details out of the conversation. Just think about what it is that irritates you about others in the real world, e.g., constant complaining about not having money, not having this and that, and then think about what it is about you that others might find uninteresting. Even here on CMF you can find pure boasting about what others have, which is hardly a helpful contribution to anyone, so don't you find those people boring, too?

I certainly see nothing wrong discussing one's accomplishments/goals/strategies, but people very quickly lose interest when you not only offer more than that, but when the conversations become one-sided, ie, all about you [speaking in general here, not about you].


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## CPA Candidate (Dec 15, 2013)

Most people, being human, are seduced by material things to varying degrees. I've noticed that people that form friendship groups tend to try to keep up with the others in terms of material things. 

Being someone that is interested in saving and growing wealth will always make your a minority among middle class folks. I often think the only real difference between the middle and upper classes is that when the middle class gets money they always spend it right away.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Eclectic12 said:


> Doesn't understand or doesn't make learning it a priority?


If you don't understand something, it's hard to make it a priority. Think of the legal system, most people think it's hard and that you need a lawyer...I've incorporated, probated wills, sued people in court, and done a number of other legal things without a lawyer. Instead I spent a little time learning how to do it...not surprisingly, it wasn't that hard or complicated...but most people who don't take the time to learn, think they need a lawyer, because they don't understand it.

Think of all the FUD that is spread about "risky investments"...heck, even on this board most people get attacked for suggesting their investing decisions.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Just a Guy said:


> Often, the discussion comes up about how investing should be taught in schools...my question is who'll teach it? If they try to teach it, we'd probably get "give your money to a bank and buy a well balanced portfolio of mutual funds"...which, any real investor knows is about the worst way to invest (barring throwing darts at a stock listing).


I've been in a few discussions about schools teaching investing and I'd only be for it if the kids had 90% or greater grades all in basic classes. BTW, I don't see a problem with a well balanced portfolio of mutual funds, many people I know still do this and are doing just fine.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> BTW, I don't see a problem with a well balanced portfolio of mutual funds, *many people I know still do this* and are doing just fine.


Indeed there are many people invested in MFs, but not all are doing well, and how many of them even know their fees?


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

They should devote a semester or a block explaining a)economy b)how businesses(stocks)and the economy are related(ie:value)
Have a mandatory 4-5 sectors that must be incl(say with 100k paper money or a million)Have a mandatory percentage to fixed income that has to be incl
Have a mandatory 1/3 at least outside of North america.....Than have marks that award yield etc etc etc(could go on ,but have guidelines in place that would represent what a 'real' world portfolio would look like and how you would want one to function)

Wouldn't be the hard i don't think,as opposed to 'hey kids here is 100k of fake money)go to town lol
Of course half the class would want to load up on all the sexy stocks/business if done that way
They really do that?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Toronto.gal said:


> Indeed there are many people invested in MFs, but not all are doing well, and how many of them even know their fees?


A few of my friends know their fees, even sat in with a couple of them while their bank's FA explained how much in fees they are paying and the others, well they didn't care. Bottom line is, they all will reach their retirement goals with MFs even though they are losing some points due to the higher MERs.


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## Mookie (Feb 29, 2012)

Just a Guy said:


> Often, the discussion comes up about how investing should be taught in schools...my question is who'll teach it? If they try to teach it, we'd probably get "give your money to a bank and buy a well balanced portfolio of mutual funds"...which, any real investor knows is about the worst way to invest (barring throwing darts at a stock listing).
> siness...


If the education system can come up with a decent curriculum for physics or history or English, why not personal finance?

Everyone agrees that education (be it university or a trade) is the path to earning a good salary, but once you've earned the money the other 50% (maybe more) of the equation is knowing how best to use that money.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> FA explained how much in fees they are paying and the others, well they didn't care. Bottom line is, *they all will reach their retirement goals with MFs even though they are losing some points due to the higher MERs.*


Over a long period of time, it won't be 'some points', but a sizable amount.

Does below sound correct to you?

'Even a 2% annual fee—which may appear benign—will exact a hefty toll over time. A modest $50,000 portfolio would incur $1,000 in fees every year. If we assume a balanced portfolio will return 6% annually before costs, a 2% MER will eat almost a third of your potential returns over a 20-year time horizon; at the 30-year mark, you’ll lose 45%.'


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> If you don't understand something, it's hard to make it a priority.


If understanding is required to make it a priority - how do some many people teach themselves all kinds of skills such as auto mechanics including complicated things like an engine rebuild? Did the RE investor understand RE before deciding to make it a priority?

There are lots of examples of people making priority to learn about things they don't understand.




Just a Guy said:


> ... I've incorporated, probated wills, sued people in court, and done a number of other legal things without a lawyer. Instead I spent a little time learning how to do it...


So did you find it hard to make it a priority when you didn't understand it? If so - what triggered you decide to ignore how "hard" it was? 

Or did you decide to learn a bit about it and as you discovered it was relatively simple - expanded what you could do?


At the end of the day - if one refused to learn about it ... hard, easy or whatever, then one won't learn about it nor make it a priority.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

cainvest said:


> I've been in a few discussions about schools teaching investing and I'd only be for it if the kids had 90% or greater grades all in basic classes.


So investing should only be taught to those who are good academically?

I'd prefer the information be taught to everyone ... some of those doing less will be become interested. 




Toronto.gal said:


> cainvest said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, I don't see a problem with a well balanced portfolio of mutual funds, many people I know still do this and are doing just fine.
> ...


True ... but then again, if some of those taught end up choosing a well balance MF portfolio versus someone like my dad or my aunt who insisted on sticking to GICs for forty years - the alternative could be far worse.


Cheers


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Toronto.gal said:


> Over a long period of time, it won't be 'some points', but a sizable amount.
> 
> Does below sound correct to you?
> 
> 'Even a 2% annual fee—which may appear benign—will exact a hefty toll over time. A modest $50,000 portfolio would incur $1,000 in fees every year. If we assume a balanced portfolio will return 6% annually before costs, a 2% MER will eat almost a third of your potential returns over a 20-year time horizon; at the 30-year mark, you’ll lose 45%.'


You are preaching to the choir here, I explained it to them but they mainly see these two things, 
1> No extra work for them to do (didn't want to open a direct investment account and manage it themselves)
2> They'll have enough money to retire comfortably

They are also closer to retirement than 20 years so the compounding affects are reduced. All I'm saying is it can be done with a good MF portfolio not that its the best choice. Many times self directed investors tend to focus on investment costs when lifestyle costs can be just (or even more so) as damaging to ones retirement savings. Start adding up the costs for peoples lifestyle choices and compound those over twenty to thrity years ... yup, some of those choices can make a 2-3% MER look good.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

donald said:


> ... Of course half the class would want to load up on all the sexy stocks/business if done that way
> 
> They really do that?


I'm not sure why you are surprised.

I worked with an actuary who won six or seven stock market contests by starting with the stocks that started with the letter A on the TSE, waiting for a 5% gain, selling and then buying the next A letter stock on the list.

When he mentioned he was going to do this with real money as he had "proven" his strategy, I cautioned him that this was likely a "all boats rise with the tide" situation. He was sure a dropping market wouldn't matter so he did it. It worked until the market dropped, after which he hired a fee only advisor. :biggrin:


Cheers


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

Not all MFs are bad. Sometimes the return is worth the higher MER. 2% MER for 4% sucks, but I don't mind paying 1.6% for a 14.7% avg return.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

^^^^

+1 ... or if it's for an area that it's hard to get solid information for and index choices are limited/suspect.


Cheers


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Anyone notice that, even on an investing forum, people can't agree on what a good investment strategy is?

Yet, you want a bunch of accademic non-investors to come up with a program to teach the next generation to be good sound investors...talk about walking blindfolded into a mine field.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Eclectic12 said:


> If understanding is required to make it a priority - how do some many people teach themselves all kinds of skills such as auto mechanics including complicated things like an engine rebuild? Did the RE investor understand RE before deciding to make it a priority?
> 
> There are lots of examples of people making priority to learn about things they don't understand.
> 
> ...


I would not consider myself "average". I'm not special by any means, but I've never had a paycheque since I was a kid, I invest, I do what I want for work...

There is nothing special about me except the fact that I'm not afraid to try something...anyone can do what I did/do, most people are afraid to though.


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## BoringInvestor (Sep 12, 2013)

Retired Peasant said:


> Not all MFs are bad. Sometimes the return is worth the higher MER. 2% MER for 4% sucks, but I don't mind paying 1.6% for a 14.7% avg return.


This heavily depends on what is strategy of the mutual fund in your example, can you find a less expensive alternative, and are you happy paying the fee knowing it's likely less expensive elsewhere?

For example, if the fund in your example has been tracking the U.S. or Canadian market, and your period is the past couple of years, you've been under performing.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> You are preaching to the choir here....


Not preaching, and not against managed funds, which certainly play a part; just saying that it's easier [for investors] not to care & ignore fees when they don't know all the facts. 

Just like it's easy to advise a 'total newbie', to invest all his/her money in the markets today, because que sera sera.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> I'm not afraid to try something...anyone can do what I did/do, most *people are afraid to though.*


This! 

As I mentioned in another post also, I believe people resist learning primarily due to lack of interest/lack of confidence [talking about investments here]. And by learning, I don't mean that you should be a DIY investor.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Eclectic12 said:


> So investing should only be taught to those who are good academically?


Basically ... Yes.



Eclectic12 said:


> I'd prefer the information be taught to everyone ... some of those doing less will be become interested.


IMO if they're not doing well enough to understand the basics, its a waste of time. Teaching time would be better used to get their basic knowledge up to a higher level.

Most kids in school (not just high school but college/university) have different priorities and care very little about savings/retirement, at least most of the ones I've talked too. You can teach basic savings and investing to an *interested* individual in a weekend and even though their portfolio may not be completely optimized they'll be well on their way and can learn more as the years go by. Also, since many people can't get to the savings part as they are in debt, investing knowledge is not useful to them at that time.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Toronto.gal said:


> Not preaching, and not against managed funds, which certainly play a part; just saying that it's easier [for investors] not to care & ignore fees when they don't know all the facts.


And that's the funny thing, even though I've shown people or even had their FA show them, they still ignore the loss because they don't want to manage the money themselves ... go figure.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

BoringInvestor said:


> This heavily depends on what is strategy of the mutual fund in your example, can you find a less expensive alternative, and are you happy paying the fee knowing it's likely less expensive elsewhere?


No, I don't think there is a less expensive alternative.



> For example, if the fund in your example has been tracking the U.S. or Canadian market, and your period is the past couple of years, you've been under performing.


The period in this case is 18 years - avg return 14.7%


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Electric-why award marks on that basis though?(scrape that)
Mark it the basis of how well the overall portf is built.(would not be about performance but about how well everything is constructed)


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

See the post above you to understand. Some people see signals in noise.


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

Hi:

I read somewhere recently that better returns are associated with people that take (and understand?) mathematics courses than those that take investing courses. Maybe the first step is to make sure all cashiers can give change without computer backup ...


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

hboy43 said:


> Hi:
> 
> I read somewhere recently that better returns are associated with people that take (and understand?) mathematics courses than those that take investing courses. *Maybe the first step is to make sure all cashiers can give change without computer backup *...


 .. LOL! What and go backwards as my GEN Y friend says? And then goes - where is the smartphone? I have a calculator on there to figure out how much change I should return to you. :wink:


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Basically ... Yes.
> 
> IMO if they're not doing well enough to understand the basics, its a waste of time. Teaching time would be better used to get their basic knowledge up to a higher level.


Whereas what I've noticed is regardless of their level of aptitude - those who are motivated, will try to learn what they can, when they can. 
I know people who excelled academically who speak the principals but are doing worse financially than those who struggled, didn't seem to get it but have slowly been learning.




cainvest said:


> ... You can teach basic savings and investing to an *interested* individual in a weekend and even though their portfolio may not be completely optimized they'll be well on their way and can learn more as the years go by.


So why would you prefer to keep the info away from an interested individual, simply because they struggle?
IMO - having the individual interested is 80% of the battle so why limit the net being cast out?




cainvest said:


> Also, since many people can't get to the savings part as they are in debt, investing knowledge is not useful to them at that time.


If they are presented with the info that there's a benefit to them ... that's more incentive to address the debt, is it not?


Cheers


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Yeah, most of my investment decisions are based on math... If it costs X and makes Y, if Y > X it's probably a good investment...

As opposed to give me your money and buy a well diversified portfolio based on past performance, which is no guarantee of future results...

I can't understand why the first works better for me.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> ... As I mentioned in another post also, I believe people resist learning primarily due to lack of interest/lack of confidence [talking about investments here]. And by learning, I don't mean that you should be a DIY investor.


+1 ... which is why I don't see "understanding" as the issue when there are so many examples of people who resisted/were not interested/lacked confidence etc. but when something made them take notice (ex. why is my advisor/MFs doing so badly) ... the situation changed.

Or the example of my co-worker ... "now I'm making good money, I need to take care of it".


Understanding to me ... did not appear to the key ... but the willingness to learn/apply what was learned.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

donald said:


> Electric-why award marks on that basis though?(scrape that)
> Mark it the basis of how well the overall portf is built.(would not be about performance but about how well everything is constructed)


 ... got you now ... I misread that you were questioning whether a less experienced class make silly choices.

As for how marks are awarded ... the stock market contests as part of classes I have been party to gave a few marks for participation and a few more for biggest gains.
The lion's share of the marks came from demonstrating knowledge ... I don't recall if portfolio construction was marked or not.

I would tend to agree that more marks should come from other sources (i.e. not winning the limited time contest where a wild strategy could temporarily work).


Cheers


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Eclectic12 said:


> Whereas what I've noticed is regardless of their level of aptitude - those who are motivated, will try to learn what they can, when they can.
> I know people who excelled academically who speak the principals but are doing worse financially than those who struggled, didn't seem to get it but have slowly been learning.
> 
> So why would you prefer to keep the info away from an interested individual, simply because they struggle?
> IMO - having the individual interested is 80% of the battle so why limit the net being cast out?


Most kids have a hard enough time with the basics, why throw more at them to struggle with?
Plus if they are truely interested they can easily learn themselves online.

The rest is answered in my previous post that you didn't quote (below),

Most kids in school (not just high school but college/university) have different priorities and care very little about savings/retirement, at least most of the ones I've talked too.



Eclectic12 said:


> If they are presented with the info that there's a benefit to them ... that's more incentive to address the debt, is it not?
> 
> Cheers


Most kids/young adults are driven more by emotion that logic. Basic finances is simple math, more money in than out but yet they can't seem to do it. You know they gotta have the new _____ phone and $60+/month data plan to watch youtube!


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

cainvest said:


> Most kids/young adults are driven more by emotion that logic. Basic finances is simple math, more money in than out but yet they can't seem to do it. You know they gotta have the new _____ phone and $60+/month data plan to watch youtube!


Same with people who are fat - they are unable to do simple math. Quit eating so god damn much -> stop being fat. Easy simply math.

Most older people I know of are fat as all hell compared to younger people. Maybe young adults are better at math?


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

Donald, I get exactly what you are saying. Our interest is in investing and finance, however it is difficult to talk about this hobby as one would with a "regular" one. Either people zone out or it comes across as arrogant/bragging, so you are left without being able to say much at all apart from some simple blanket statements. We don't want to brag, we just want to share our interests like everyone else. It's tough to find like-minded individuals in the real world, away from the Internet.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Most kids have a hard enough time with the basics, why throw more at them to struggle with?
> Plus if they are truely interested they can easily learn themselves online.


 ... because it will at least present it to them and possibly plant the seed for when they become interest later.




cainvest said:


> Most kids in school (not just high school but college/university) have different priorities and care very little about savings/retirement, at least most of the ones I've talked too.
> 
> Most kids/young adults are driven more by emotion that logic. Basic finances is simple math, more money in than out but yet they can't seem to do it. You know they gotta have the new _____ phone and $60+/month data plan to watch youtube!


So? How is setting the curriculum by what the student is interested in or by their emotions say of any help? 
That would seem to be staying with the status quo.

If my classmates had their way, most would have structured their schedule to load up with sports, basket weaving, spares etc. :biggrin:


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

GOB said:


> Donald, I get exactly what you are saying.
> 
> Our interest is in investing and finance, however it is difficult to talk about this hobby as one would with a "regular" one.
> ... It's tough to find like-minded individuals in the real world, away from the Internet.


 ... mixing with the public at large or family ... +1.

However, I've seen varies investing clubs advertise over the years, similar to computer clubs ... so I'm not sure it's impossible.


Cheers


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

none said:


> Same with people who are fat - they are unable to do simple math. Quit eating so god damn much -> stop being fat. Easy simply math.
> 
> Most older people I know of are fat as all hell compared to younger people. Maybe young adults are better at math?


Another simple math problem and shows emotions many times rules over logic. 
Maybe the older people execise less, have more money for food or maybe its just another expand of the power of compounding!


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Eclectic12 said:


> ... because it will at least present it to them and possibly plant the seed for when they become interest later.


Ok, so teach one class ... there, the seed is planted!



Eclectic12 said:


> So? How is setting the curriculum by what the student is interested in or by their emotions say of any help?
> That would seem to be staying with the status quo.
> 
> If my classmates had their way, most would have structured their schedule to load up with sports, basket weaving, spares etc. :biggrin:
> ...


Who said let the students decide? Yup, shops, basket weaving, smart phone hacking ... all great courses to offer!

In any case, why not teach them at home if they are interested?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Ok, so teach one class ... there, the seed is planted!


Isn't that what the provinces talking about teaching financial literacy is about?




cainvest said:


> Who said let the students decide?


Perhaps I misunderstood ... it sounded to me that you were saying that it was pointless to setup any courses *because* most of those you talked to weren't interested and/or were ruled by emotions.




cainvest said:


> ... In any case, why not teach them at home if they are interested?


If it was being widely taught at home ... then there would be no need for this thread complaining that few of the OP's circle want to talk about it, n'est pas?

Personally ... that's the most effective place for it to be taught but it seems clear it's generally not happening.


Cheers


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I can understand both sides,Cainvest makes a good point about emotions(and maybe maturity)
I will be honest I totally would of not joined the investment 'club' in high school if It had one
Probably on the stupidest reason of it likely not being 'cool' as dumb as that sounds
The primary 'goal' of high school for me anyways was to fit in/try to get girls/drink beers and smoke a few joints and make sure I am wearing the right type of clothes lol (I was a idiot,but I was 17 when I left school so I was prob not that out of the norm!

Wasn't until I hit the 'real' world that I found out how important money was(and after spending years in my 20's being broke and realizing I needed to figure **** out and fast)

That is likely the main problem(most kids in high school are completely supported by their parents and have a vague understanding what money is)
I didn't get interested in business and investing until I was out of school and getting my *** kicked by real life(call it forced learning).

It was only than that I started investing(mutual funds)and working hard(family business)that changed things around,and I became sorted out a couple years later(thank god)


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Eclectic12 said:


> Isn't that what the provinces talking about teaching financial literacy is about?
> 
> Perhaps I misunderstood ... it sounded to me that you were saying that it was pointless to setup any courses *because* most of those you talked to weren't interested and/or were ruled by emotions.


And make it outside of regular school hours ... see how many interested students show up. 



Eclectic12 said:


> If it was being widely taught at home ... then there would be no need for this thread complaining that few of the OP's circle want to talk about it, n'est pas?
> 
> Personally ... that's the most effective place for it to be taught but it seems clear it's generally not happening.


True and sad. Though even if people were teaching it at home doesn't mean they'd talk about it outside the home.

Typical investment conversation,

[Bob] Hey Sam, I rebalanced my portfolio today!

[Sam] Good for you Bob, I did the same last week, exciting stuff huh?

[Bob] Sure was ................ sooooo, you catch the hockey game last night?


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## GOB (Feb 15, 2011)

Any topic can be turned into a boring conversation, or an interesting conversation. I feel like shooting myself when people talk about politics, obviously others feel differently.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

GOB said:


> Any topic can be turned into a boring conversation, or an interesting conversation. I feel like shooting myself when people talk about politics, obviously others feel differently.


I know what you mean. *THANKS OBAMA!!!*


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Talking about couch potato investing would be boring though!...it is boring to investors lol

What I was meaning was maybe conversation similar to talking about specific businesses/ sectors/economy/ and the like(and about one's portfolio but I don't have friends in real life with a portfolio so that is out the window,most of my friends are in bank products and get a phone call once a yr when rsp season starts,i doubt they even open up their progress statements)


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## Letran (Apr 7, 2014)

cainvest said:


> And that's the funny thing, even though I've shown people or even had their FA show them, they still ignore the loss because they don't want to manage the money themselves ... go figure.


I'm sure you've heard of this analogy before. Everything has its place and purpose even for mutual funds

Not everybody would want to change their own oil in their cars, or change or rotate their own tires, but yet it is simple in any means. Might it be time, lack of interest not everything rotates around cost of investment.

The important thing is that the engine oil is being replaced, and people are investing for retirement. Certainly cheaper than not changing oil or not investing altogether


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

none said:


> Same with people who are fat - they are unable to do simple math. Quit eating so god damn much -> stop being fat. Easy simply math.
> 
> Most older people I know of are fat as all hell compared to younger people. Maybe young adults are better at math?


Ha- no need to discriminate. MOST PEOPLE ARE FAT- old and young . It's the new norm. At least most of the older folks that are fat delayed it until later in life. 

Anyhow, back on topic. All kids should have basic financial education in school. It is much simpler than many other things being taught, and certainly vastly more critical.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Anyone notice that, even on an investing forum, people can't agree on what a good investment strategy is?
> Yet, you want a bunch of accademic non-investors to come up with a program to teach the next generation to be good sound investors...talk about walking blindfolded into a mine field.


Depends on who is designing it and who is teaching it ... on one hand the comment is "those that can't do - teach", on the other hand - the local school board business teachers setup their own credit union, where they bought to building they were in for $6 million, paid it off in two years and have been collecting rents for other businesses who rented the other floors for decades.




Just a Guy said:


> I would not consider myself "average". I'm not special by any means, ...
> There is nothing special about me except the fact that I'm not afraid to try something...anyone can do what I did/do, most people are afraid to though.


Then you are an example of my point that understanding isn't required, are you not?

For whatever reason ... you made it a priority to learn a bit ... which opened doors.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

cainvest said:


> And make it outside of regular school hours ... see how many interested students show up.


In high school it was about thirty-five out of thirteen hundred ... of course, if the comparison is the chess club, that's great compared to twelve ... 




cainvest said:


> True and sad.


 ... same as the interest in learning, no matter whether it's immediately of use. The families that valued it and encouraged exploring - also had a better financial situation because a quick exploration quickly tells one there are significant benefits.





cainvest said:


> Though even if people were teaching it at home doesn't mean they'd talk about it outside the home.


In terms of comparing portfolios ... maybe not ... but in terms of new things to figure out or suggestions to those around one, like the OP I've tried to talk about interesting investment conversations ... with only a few willing to talk about it.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

donald said:


> Talking about couch potato investing would be boring though!...it is boring to investors lol


I've got someone who has approached me at work about index funds in the their registered accounts and have sent the link to the Canadian Couch Potato web site.
I have a guy in the data warehouse section want to talk about Apple stock at coffee break.




donald said:


> What I was meaning was maybe conversation similar to talking about specific businesses/ sectors/economy/ and the like ...


You mean like the actuaries at lunch around the first week of Jan talking about "the Saudis are playing the long game ... if you can hold for the long term, buying some oil stocks will like payoff nicely in the long term"?


Cheers


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Another simple math problem and shows emotions many times rules over logic.
> Maybe the older people execise less, have more money for food or maybe its just another expand of the power of compounding!


Generally it is a fading metabolism...it is 10x harder to maintain a decent weight at 60 as it is at 40. (also we drink much better wine)


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

...and in response to having lower metabolic demands you quit eating so god damn much. Again, simple math.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

None-your trying hard to bait people or something lol
How did weight get into this

Electric-it doesn't have to be heavy macro/political events happening,I would settle for something less than that

No different than a everyday thread here amongst cmf really
This is a way to interact but it not nearly the same as if you are "live" amongst people say sharing a beer

I like forums(I read a few on subjects that intrest me)it just lacks that certain intimacy I guess you get from real life conversations.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

But than again having said that I just spent the last few hours in a group text with friends

Everything is so online now!

We're all living in bill gates and Steve jobs world!
That's the one shitty thing IMO about tech,in someways it's great but along with all that society takes on a colder more detached reality but I guess as a society that's what we want otherwise apple wouldn't be the biggest company in the world


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

You seem to want your friends to take an interest in financial matters...face it, it's not going to happen.

Instead of wishing for them to change, why not try to find some people who are interested? There are "share clubs" located all across the country (look in canadian money saver magazine). There are groups of business people, investors, etc. there are sports groups of retired guys...go out and expand your horizons.

You can't have your cake and eat it too...


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I just wanted to see if it was unique or not
Wasn't sure if most here are close friends etc with other investors in non online life and it seems I am not unique(I'll drop it,we have beat a dead horse here already)
I am sure there are clubs u can find(though to be honest not sure if that's my style)
I d say there is prob the same Amt of investors as their is johova witnesses(example)
Funny thing is(I am guessing)
I don't mind being solitary when it comes to investing prob like most self directed(almost comes with the territory)

I am not looking to change friends,just because they aren't into investing doesn't mean much
As you know jag diversity among friends is what makes it good!(irony I guess)


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## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

I understand what you are saying, @donald.

I have also found that in-real-life, nobody has the same level of interest in personal finance, that I do.
To you and I, it seems surprising that people don't seem to care about the value of their own hard earned money, like we do.

There's a saying, "Nobody cares more about your money than you." However, I don't think many people 'get' it. Their priorities are different. That is fine.

Anyway, that's why we hang around this forum. At least we can share ideas and knowledge between us.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Well said Avrex. 

I think even amongst some CMFers, there are probably more "die hard" folks that care about their money in here than others. Personal finance is very much personal but certainly we're members here because we 'get it' and care much more than most!


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

avrex said:


> "Nobody cares more about your money than you."


Except maybe the CRA.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

donald said:


> ... Electric-it doesn't have to be heavy macro/political events happening,I would settle for something less than that ...


The content seems to keep referring my posts ... but you keep referencing Electric - a different user that Eclectic12. :biggrin:

IAC ... all that I was pointing out is that if one keeps one's ears open, there are a few pockets of such discussions here and there. Trouble is most want to talk about their favourite subjects so for a face to face discussion, one may be limited to hitting up some clubs and then establishing a smaller group that gets together over coffee.





donald said:


> ... I just wanted to see if it was unique or not
> Wasn't sure if most here are close friends etc with other investors in non online life and it seems I am not unique ...


For better or worse ... this is not unique.

Cheers


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

donald said:


> I am not looking to change friends,just because they aren't into investing doesn't mean much
> As you know jag diversity among friends is what makes it good!(irony I guess)


You seem to be a person of extremes...I never suggested changing friends, I suggested adding to your social group.

For me, I didn't really even have to look. Remember, most people who are financially well off, as seen by the responses here, don't tend to talk about it for various reasons. You just need to open your eyes around you.

Being self employed, i encounter many other business owners, heads of companies, high ranking employees, etc. As a business owner, I can tell you, it's usually very hard to remain in business long term and not be financially successful (though I do know some who've managed). When I go to my kid's events at school or sports, I meet new people...those who have time to volunteer a lot tend to be more financially free. I'm on a number of boards, both charity and due to my investments, again I meet people.

Somehow, I seem to find new people all the time. I don't know about you, but my group of friends has changed over the years...while I still have friend from when I was a kid, my group tends to grow, shrink, and evolve all the time. You seem to not want that.

P.s. As I said before, I'm the type who finds solutions to problems, I can't understand why people complain about things, don't take this as a personal attack.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

GOB said:


> *1.* I feel like *shooting myself when people talk about politics,* obviously others feel differently.
> *2.* Either people *zone out*
> *3.* so you are left *without being able to say much at all..*..
> *4.* We don't want to brag, we just want to *share our interests* like everyone else.


*1.* I find that surprising! Even though some/most investors might ignore the political issues in investment decisions [mundane or not], how often can one truly separate and/or not think about [global] political factors from one's investment strategies, even if one were investing in a single darling stock like AAPL, whose CEO btw, has in recent months been lecturing other companies to do more with respect to the environmental impact of their respective products. Last Sept., just before a UN climate summit, Cook [and other CEOs] appeared with Kerry and Ban Ki-Moon to say that: “long-term consequences of not addressing climate are huge.” 

Remember this add? 









*2.* Do they ever! Some just yawn, and though not the most polite way to ask you to quit your loquaciousness, the message that they are not interested should be respected.
*3.* That's not a problem on a forum though. :biggrin:
*4.* It's not just sharing interests, but also encouraging others when appropriate [I often drop book hints as part of my encouraging efforts].


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> 1. You seem to be a person of extremes...*I never suggested changing friends,* I suggested adding to your social group/my group of friends has changed over the years...
> 2. I'm the type who *finds solutions* to problems................


*1.* Of course you're not going to drop your friends for no valid reason, lol, but it does not mean that you have to limit yourself either, as you pointed out. 

*2.* That's right, complaining is not problem solving. A member here, who recently immigrated to Ontario from a country that has 50c summer type temperatures, isn't enjoying the winter temperatures so much, but is already looking at relocating to the West Coast.

There are people out there that share your same interests, but you have to make the effort to find them; they won't come knocking at your door.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Sorry about that eclectic lol
For some reason i guess i wasn't paying attention(obviously)
Must be my dyslexia(i have it)
Your screen name has a sequence similar to electric


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## gt_23 (Jan 18, 2014)

donald said:


> It is not about that gt-23(bad day at the office or something,relax)
> I said at the end of the post 'lonely'
> 
> If i am hanging out with my friends who are not investors i can't talk about the market because nobody gives a ****!
> But the whole room can talk about how shitty phil Kessel is for hours


Nope, not a bad day at the office actually. Just have a general short fuse with whiney-types, particularly when it comes to having too much money.

If it truly surprises you that the general public has no interest in "being an investor" or capitalist, than you probably aren't one yourself. As I've said before, you can join a meetup group or network to find new people with similar interests.



donald said:


> My point was also the life-style(of aggressive saving)
> So what are you saying?Until the day comes where you are going to financially take care of me gt-23,i will do what is best for me(don't need your advice on that front)
> You rather me be a drain on the system a say Yolo and be dependent in old age?


Based on the tax I pay, I'm already taking care of a few people, so what's one more? JK

I didn't suggest that you spend all your money and stop saving. But what you need to understand is that if you're able to save $40k a year after taxes and expenses, your a lot better off than a good majority of Canadians, and way better off than people in other parts of the World. So I really don't understand your need to make people aware of that unless you plan to put it to good use in a charity or donation. I also hope you can understand why they might not want to hear about it in a social setting.

At the end of the day things work out alright for most people without the anxiety-filled life of being an "aggressive saver". Think of the millions of Canadians that go through life just thinking about today, this week, next month, basically just trying to get by. They put some money away when they have some good fortune, maybe accumulate some items of value, payoff the mortgage or the house goes up in price, maybe get an inheritance or business passed down. Sure, some people suffer misfortune after misfortune, but that's exactly why the "system" is there. I don't think they wanted to be drains on it either. You don't want to leave anything to chance and you want to control the outcome, I get it, but you shouldn't expect your friends to be the same way.

P.s. Junior Achievement delivers great educational programs related to economics and investing to young people in all grades. Consider volunteering or giving them money if you want to help out.


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## gt_23 (Jan 18, 2014)

none said:


> I know right? That's sort of what I was getting from this thread too. You shouldn't have to need others validation to feel good about yourself.


Well my net worth is bigger than your net worth, and I will show you every month just to prove it 

The irony is this behavior (my house, car, etc. bigger than your house, car, etc.) is generally condemned by frugal types towards others.


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## Mookie (Feb 29, 2012)

As a number of you have pointed out, it's all about interest in the subject of personal finance and investing. If people aren't interested, they don't want to talk about it or learn about it.

Until the education system changes, it's up to us parents to fill in the gaps.

I recently helped my kids (11 and 14) move their life savings (birthday and christmas money) from a HISA to an equity dividend stategy. After they stared watching their dividends roll in my 14 year old's eyes lit up and she asked me "why didn't you show me this sooner?"

Now that their money is in the market, and they can see the results, they are developing an interest, and regularly ask me questions about their investments.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

^ And leveraging your post, perhaps ongoing mentoring, as you are doing, is the best/most efficient/only way for a young person to appreciate what investing can do for them ... period.


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## Kursor (Mar 7, 2014)

Donald, you read my mind. Hard to find self directed investors in the real world. The people you encounter in life don't want to talk about investing for a variety of reasons. Quite frankly, most people in this world are not financially astute:

- Time - They don't have time. Their energy is focused on doing that extra work to gain more bonus or that next promotion.
- Ignorance - They don't want to learn. Never got around to it. They have mutual funds that just sit there where a 'better person' is managing it. 
- Culture in-grained in them earlier on: They can lose it all. Best they save it in a big bank GIC or High Interest Savings account where it's guaranteed. So they 'buy' RRSP contribute annually and 'forget about it'
- Big bank Financial advisor says to them, if they don't want to lose it all, invest in GIC or HISA. If they want to make some more money and have risk buy their mutual fund. Either way the bank makes the money.
- Media - They heard or read about insider trading or high frequency trading. They aren't going to play 'their' game, so they stick to their GIC/HISA.
Bad past experience: They traded before (eg bought lots of gold), lost big, got out and don't want to get into it anymore.

Best advice I can give and I try to follow myself with every fiber in my body. Keep your mouth shut. They aren't going to listen to you. It's no different than telling a fat person they can lose weight by eating healthy and exercising. Easy BUT hard to do. 

If they wanted to self direct invest, they would've. Simple google search would bring up index couch potato would be a brain dead easy approach for a novice as recommended by Warrant Buffet.


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## 1980z28 (Mar 4, 2010)

donald said:


> Does your friends/family/co-workers know your a investor(esp self-directed?)
> Most know i invest just from mentioning it etc(in passing)but by and large it is almost like a alternative life style i have and i am way in the minority(esp how it relates to how i live and how i allocate my $)
> 
> I think many of my friends/co-workers etc 'wonder' because i live simply(only renter)there is def a dis-connect from how i live to what i earn(so many of my peers direct their money towards life-style inflation-mortgage/new vehicles/kids/clothes/concerts/events/trips-regular society i guess,and here i am every year maxing out rrsp/tfsa and some no reg investments....basically i am a mid 30's guy living/spending(non investments)as i was in my early 20's(like i got left 'behind' but the funny thing is i am way ahead lol(just not outwardly)
> ...


I started to invest in early 80`s

Still invested

Only strangers know I invest


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