# Michael Mann loses climate science case in BC court



## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Michael Mann climate scientist from Penn State, sued Canadian climatologist Tim Ball for criticizing his famous 'hockey stick graph'. After dragging out the case for 6 years, he refused to show the judge how he worked out his calculations and the judge threw the case out, and ordered Mann to pay the defendant's legal costs.

It's important to note that Mann sued Ball, then Mann refused to provide the evidence that would prove his case. To me there are several important takeaways 1) The suit was a publicity stunt from the word go. Mann knew he didn't dare tell the truth, the best he could hope for was to drag it out until Ball (now 79 years old) ran out of money or died. 2) Mann has as much as admitted his data and figures are bogus 3) How the hell did he get away with this since 1997? I thought scientists were obliged to show their work so it could be checked and criticized by other scientists before their findings were accepted.

From American Thinker https://www.americanthinker.com/blo..._skeptic_ordered_to_pay_defendants_costs.html


Another version (PDF file ) https://www.technocracy.news/fatal-courtroom-act-ruins-michael-hockey-stick-mann/?print=pdf

No doubt there are other reports.

Mann Tweeted that Ball did not win the case, that none of Bell's claims were proven, that none of Mann's were disproven. Since the case was dismissed because Mann refused to provide any evidence, this is to say the least disingenuous. It is to say the most a damn lie.

PS Mann is now threatening to take the case to the Supreme Court. Since you can only appeal on the law or on the evidence, and since he refuses to provide any evidence, I predict he will get noplace.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Ball's lawyers petitioned the court to terminate the lawsuit due to his serious health problems and the facts that Ball was unknown to the public and his views weren't taken seriously by the public and therefore caused no financial injury to Mann.

It isn't the first time Ball has escaped a trial conviction using the same reasoning.

_In February, 2018, the suit by Weaver was dismissed on the grounds that Ball's attack on Weaver was so stupid and inept that it couldn't be considered libelous thus doing no injury to Weaver's reputation to an informed reader. Therefore the official judgement of the Canadian court system is that Tim Ball is either an incompetent idiot or someone pretending to be an incompetent idiot._


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Where did you get that? I read several articles, they all said Mann refused to provide the judge with evidence to back up his claims.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

^ The case was terminated/dismissed for delay because Mann would not produce his data (that he based his hockey stick graph on) for the court to examine. Apparently he has never produced this data. the obvious balance of probabilities is his research is a fraud. 

Mann is a strange one. Why would he sue if he was unprepared to produce the evidence he claims proves his case? This lawsuit dismissal tends to ratify Ball's claims about Mann's data - its a fraud.

the stuff sags is citing is just smoke screen stuff.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Ball was the defendant who had made the claims. The trial was about him defending his claims. He failed to do so and asked the court to dismiss the case.

Ball's lawyers argued that he was in poor health and was not known well enough that his claims caused any financial damage to the reputation of Mann.

Ball's lawyers defense strategy in the lawsuits against him is the "he knows nothing and nobody listens to him anyways" defense.

Apparently his lawyers are mistaken. Some people do listen to him.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Reportedly, Mann may now face a criminal investigation in the US. The allegation is he used public funds to perpetrate a fraud (leaving him open to criminal investigation.).


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

sags said:


> Ball's lawyers petitioned the court to terminate the lawsuit due to his serious health problems and the facts that Ball was unknown to the public and his views weren't taken seriously by the public and therefore caused no financial injury to Mann.
> 
> It isn't the first time Ball has escaped a trial conviction using the same reasoning.
> 
> _In February, 2018, the suit by Weaver was dismissed on the grounds that Ball's attack on Weaver was so stupid and inept that it couldn't be considered libelous thus doing no injury to Weaver's reputation to an informed reader. Therefore the official judgement of the Canadian court system is that Tim Ball is either an incompetent idiot or someone pretending to be an incompetent idiot._


In the Weaver suit the judge wrote: " In summary, the Article is a poorly written opinion piece that offers Dr. Ball’s views on conventional climate science and Dr. Weaver’s role as a supporter and teacher of that science. While the Article is derogatory of Dr. Weaver, it is not defamatory, in that the impugned words do not genuinely threaten Dr. Weaver’s reputation in the minds of reasonably thoughtful and informed readers. Dr. Weaver has therefore failed to establish the first element of the defamation test." 

That could be construed as the judge saying Weaver is insecure and has no clue what defamation is, so should have never sued in the first place. 

Anyway sags your stuff implying Weaver lost due to Ball's health is nonsense. Weaver lost because he didn't have a case. Mann lost because he refused to produce his data, which implies he didn't have a case. His data would probably prove Ball correct.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It appears the courts have concluded that Ball is so much of a kook he is not responsible for the idiotic things he writes.

How mentally impinged do you have to be for two judges to reach that same conclusion ?..........LOL.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

sags no judge said any such thing. In the case I quoted Mann asked for an adjournment of the trial scheduled for Feb 17 and got it, on condition that he produce his documents including computer codes by that date. This is pretty standard stuff, both sides are supposed to disclose what evidence they mean to use in a process called discovery. Mann had been dragging his feet for 6 or 7 years. Now that it was put up or shut up time, he failed to comply with the court order and lost by default. None of this was on Ball, he had nothing to do with it, other than requesting the evidence.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I doubt anyone in the world believes the hockey stick graph data anymore...that was from back in the days of "Global Warming"....


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The hockey stick data has been publicly available for more than 10 years.

http://www.meteo.psu.edu/holocene/public_html/shared/research/MANNETAL98/

The text from the court ruling will be made public in a few days.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Eder said:


> I doubt anyone in the world believes the hockey stick graph data anymore...that was from back in the days of "Global Warming"....


Everyone knows it is fraudulent. Those who pretended it was valid data to promote a political agenda are also guilty of misleading the public.

The media was also complicit in promoting the lie (no real journalism was done) and there are still enough useful idiots who still believe everything they are told no matter how many times they've been lied to.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

sags, I think they want the raw data, not the processed stuff. He won't give up the raw data. If it wasn't a fraud, some people reason, he would give up his raw data.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Mann: "I have solid proof that global warming is the greatest threat that mankind faces. If we don't act right away the entire planet is doomed."

Concerned person: "Wow, that's terrible. Maybe other scientists could look at the data and then everyone can work together to help save the planet?"

Mann: "No. My data is secret and no one can see it. You just have to believe me. If you don't believe my secret data that no one else can duplicate then you're a denier."


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

_So, any way you slice it, you still get a hockey stick. It's because the pattern shows up in not just tree rings, but in essentially all the data sets combined with the instrumental record that makes the Hockey stick a 'Robust' piece of science.
_
http://ossfoundation.us/projects/environment/global-warming/myths/the-hockey-stick


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

sags said:


> _So, any way you slice it, you still get a hockey stick. It's because the pattern shows up in not just tree rings, but in essentially all the data sets combined with the instrumental record that makes the Hockey stick a 'Robust' piece of science.
> _
> http://ossfoundation.us/projects/environment/global-warming/myths/the-hockey-stick


This is irrelevant now, sags. Mann had his chance in court to prove it was a robust piece of science but he chose not to. So all this stuff about 'robust science" is just unproven blather. Reportedly, Mann has to pay Ball, not the other way around. Mann is now hoist on his own petard. We are waiting to see if a criminal investigation of Mann ensues.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

So, every chart cooked up out of phony data by the same people working together, looks the same?


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)




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