# Prepaid Envelopes



## Barwelle

I have a question of an extreme frugal nature...

I recently got mail in which was included a prepaid envelope. Just an average envelope you would fold a sheet twice to fit it into. In the section where the postage stamp would go, it says "Postage paid if mailed in Canada - Business Reply Mail". It also has the name and address of the association it came from in the middle of the envelope, along with something similar to a bar code directly above it.

I won't be mailing anything back to this organization so I almost threw it into recycling... but then I had a thought. Would I be able to use this envelope if I used white-out on the existing address and wrote a different one on it? 

At first I figured I would be able to, but then when I saw the bar code, I thought that perhaps they scan these envelopes to make sure they are actually being returned to the right person... that is, the association who would have paid for it.

Thoughts?


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## carverman

Barwelle said:


> I have a question of an extreme frugal nature...
> 
> I recently got mail in which was included a prepaid envelope. Just an average envelope you would fold a sheet twice to fit it into. In the section where the postage stamp would go, it says "Postage paid if mailed in Canada - Business Reply Mail". It also has the name and address of the association it came from in the middle of the envelope, along with something similar to a bar code directly above it.
> 
> I won't be mailing anything back to this organization so I almost threw it into recycling... but then I had a thought. Would I be able to use this envelope if I used white-out on the existing address and wrote a different one on it?
> 
> At first I figured I would be able to, but then when I saw the bar code, I thought that perhaps they scan these envelopes to make sure they are actually being returned to the right person... that is, the association who would have paid for it.
> 
> Thoughts?


Generally on a prepaid envelope, the bar code is scanned by CP and then
the envelope would go to the business that has a contract with CP and
for each prepaid reply envelope, CP would add (or subtract) a postage
charge to that business.

Now if you obliterate the return address and paste something over top
of that..the letter may not get delivered, because the auto scanning
machines that read that bar code (and the return address) are
both bar code and character recognition computerized sorting machines.
So that prepaid envelope would get rejected by the automatic sorting
machines to be hand scanned by a CP employee that is responsible for
dealing with rejects. I would think at this point it would not get delivered
to it's destination in any case..being a "dead letter". 

However, this would be considered mail fraud..and *IF *you put your own
return address on that envelope, you will more than likely get a letter from a Post Office "investigator". 

I don't know if there would be any pressed charges.. but for a price of a stamp..(ie: screwing the federal gov't of their rightful postage)...

are you willing to take that risk????


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## the-royal-mail

Nah. I tried that once and they bounced it back to me with a note that I could not reuse this type of envelope thusly. Nice try though.


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## carverman

the-royal-mail said:


> Nah. *I tried that once *and they bounced it back to me with a note that I could not reuse this type of envelope thusly. Nice try though.


er??..Former CP employee TRM?? 

If so, I guess you would know how automated the CP mail system is.
The manual stuff (like collecting and distributing to locales) is still done
by humans..but once it gets into the system at the CP terminals..it's
all done by fast conveyors, sorting machines that are hooked up to their
local system computer for cross checking and if the bar code/addr is
not in the local system..it will find it in the "great CP Uniac" somewheres
in Canada. Those computers are just too darn efficient..but inspite of
that... some letters still seem to get lost. 

I once was waiting for a tax receipt donation from the Ottawa Cancer Center..never got it! Phoned the Cancer center, who claimed they had "sent" it out in due time.

They sent me a replacement receipt.


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## jamesbe

Hmmm I've done it a bunch of times worked fine .....


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## the-royal-mail

A survey was once done, where they mailed 100 letters to themselves, all properly addressed with correct/consistent envelope and a 1 cent stamp on each. 87 of the 100 letters got through and the other 13 were returned for insufficient postage.


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## andrewf

Isn't this like stealing postage? No moral quandaries here?


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## carverman

andrewf said:


> Isn't this like stealing postage? No moral quandaries here?


No not really..scr*w the gummint..the've scr*wed me many times with their
stupid alimony laws. If I had dime for every time.....


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## carverman

the-royal-mail said:


> A survey was once done, where they mailed 100 letters to themselves, all properly addressed with correct/consistent envelope and a 1 cent stamp on each. 87 of the 100 letters got through and the other 13 were returned for insufficient postage.


Do they still read the postage stamps? In the last few (2-3) years, I've
bought these "P" stamps with no value printed on them. I don't think the
machines can differentiate a 1c from a 50c..probably require a human to
do that..and the humans are all busy on their coffee/smoke breaks as the
letter with the 1c stamp goes wizzing by at breakneck speeds on the
mail sorters. 

As they use to say in Nortel*..years ago it took 5 men (ok humans)to do the
job...now it takes a computer and 5 men *..because they are all standing
around arguing on how it should be done. Do I know that from experience!


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## HaroldCrump

carverman said:


> ..scr*w the gummint..


Except that you are not...you are inadvertently screwing the rest of the folks (the tax-paying folks, at least).
Some people (not you) take pride in "screwing" the govt. in all kinds of matters - taxes, benefits, social programs, etc. but in the end it's really the other folks like you and I that end up paying.
The so-called govt. ends up getting its fat paycheques and juicy pensions regardless.


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## andrewf

carverman said:


> No not really..scr*w the gummint..the've scr*wed me many times with their
> stupid alimony laws. If I had dime for every time.....


I'd think you're stealing from the company who issued the postage-paid envelope.


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## Barwelle

Sounds like mixed results as to if it would actually work!



andrewf said:


> Isn't this like stealing postage? No moral quandaries here?


Yea.... well... I paid my dues with this organization already hehe. And I saved them money by doing it online so I should be able to use that envelope! No you're right, it is stealing. I just thought it was a bit of a waste for me.



the-royal-mail said:


> A survey was once done, where they mailed 100 letters to themselves, all properly addressed with correct/consistent envelope and a 1 cent stamp on each. 87 of the 100 letters got through and the other 13 were returned for insufficient postage.





carverman said:


> Do they still read the postage stamps? In the last few (2-3) years, I've
> bought these "P" stamps with no value printed on them. I don't think the
> machines can differentiate a 1c from a 50c..probably require a human to
> do that..and the humans are all busy on their coffee/smoke breaks as the
> letter with the 1c stamp goes wizzing by at breakneck speeds on the
> mail sorters.


Interesting!

I heard this story once: Years ago, I think in the 90's, the union for postal workers were on a strike. When they went back to work, they hadn't got what they wanted, but were forced to return to work. In retaliation, they let any letters pass through regardless of whether they had enough postage on them or not. They figured that if CP/government wanted to be cheap with the workers, they would short CP/government.

Seems kind of... oh, what's the word? I'm having a brain fart. Something like anti-progress.


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## Dave

I do not do that often but so far it has always worked for me. It is the same principle as cutting of an unstamped stamp and using it again. My grandparents shwoed me that when I was five. I agree that it is not ethical but it is definitively frugal.

Dave


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## the-royal-mail

I remember that union action very well. The key is that they went on the national news that night when they were legislated back to work and told the nation that they would be accepting mail without postage.


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## carverman

Dave said:


> I do not do that often but so far it has always worked for me. It is the same principle as cutting of an unstamped stamp and using it again. My grandparents shwoed me that when I was five. I agree that it is not ethical but it is definitively frugal.
> 
> Dave


You do that too?

10 frugality points =>Dave

Yes, I have..ahem.... done that on occasion when I noticed that I was out
of stamps and I was mailing a letter on gummint matters to the gummint...

"What is that of the gummint..belongs to the gummint"...I say. 
Jesus,,,oh strike me down,for I have sinned.


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## Barwelle

Barwelle said:


> Seems kind of... oh, what's the word? I'm having a brain fart. Something like anti-progress.


I remember the word! I was thinking "counter-productive". Because technically, the money that Canada Post brings in through stamps/postage should be paying for the worker's wages. It should also cause an increase in the cost of postage if mail is being delivered without being paid for, as they would have to recoup that cost somehow.

But CP is a crown corp, and not a private enterprise, so the government (i.e. taxpayers) would have had to pick up the tab for lost profit.



carverman said:


> You do that too?
> 
> 10 frugality points =>Dave
> 
> Yes, I have..ahem.... done that on occasion when I noticed that I was out
> of stamps and I was mailing a letter on gummint matters to the gummint...
> 
> "What is that of the gummint..belongs to the gummint"...I say.
> Jesus,,,oh strike me down,for I have sinned.


One one hand, ethics... on the other, frugality... hmm...


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## carverman

Barwelle said:


> I remember the word! I was thinking "counter-productive". Because technically, the money that Canada Post brings in through stamps/postage should be paying for the worker's wages. It should also cause an increase in the cost of postage if mail is being delivered without being paid for, as they would have to recoup that cost somehow.
> 
> But CP is a crown corp, and not a private enterprise, so the government (i.e. taxpayers) would have had to pick up the tab for lost profit.


Being a CC, they are supposed to stand on their own and at least break
even as they are offering a valuable and (supposedly) secure service
to the public. IE: if ya cant trust the gummint..who can ya trust these days?"

PS>..it's a rhetorical question.you don't need to answer that.

Anyway, CP tries to recoup some of their expenses with surcharges..ie:
delivery & cost of fuel = "fuel surcharge" on packages + insurance charges
(why does one need insurance on that package?) ..because the package
could "get lost" or kicked around like a football at the CP warehouse..or
dropped off their truck accidently..that sort of thing....and of course
in Ontario..the hated HST..which now brings in $$$ for McGinty each time
you lick a stamp and mail a letter or parcel.



> One one hand, ethics... on the other, frugality... hmm...


Well that is a tough one to ponder..it depends on your moral judgement
and what you consider is right in your mind. 
here's the way I see it..IF the stamp is not cancelled..then it is still 
"in service"..and it's not MY fault! I'm not given the responsibilty of
cancelling postage paid for...it's CP's responsibilty..so for me..I don't
feel that guilty if I am faced with that decision...I pay my fair share
of taxes, I respect people and property and..yes..I am also frugal.


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## andrewf

Well, it's also 'frugal' to stuff a steak in your pants next time you're at the grocery store. Much more frugal than not stealing it.


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## Plugging Along

Don't give Carve any ideas... 

Though I do agree with you, stuffing a steak in your pocket, and reusing a postage are two different categories. One is clearly illegal, and can be prosecuted, whereas reusing a postage stamp, I don't think is illegal (I'm actually not 100% sure), I know it would not be prosecutable.

Those are three different things, clearly against the law vs.against the law and unprovable (How would you prove that the postage stamp was reused) vs. unethical but not illegal.


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## andrewf

Isn't the law like 'minimum code' for buildings? I don't use legality as my guideline for what's right and wrong, and I don't steal for reasons beyond the fact that it's illegal.


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## Plugging Along

I agree with you that the law is the minimum, but the example you use crosses the minimum, where as the other ones do not, though they are unethical. I'm not saying what they are doing is right or wrong, but rather it is not illegal (I think?)

That's the issue with ethics and moral dilemas they are different for each person, whereas the law is the law.


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## Four Pillars

I'm pretty sure that reusing stamps is illegal.


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## Plugging Along

I didn't know it was illegal, I haven't done it, but mainly because I don't mail things often
Thanks for the clarification
.. reusing stamps is like sticking a steak in your pants... just a really small steak


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## bmckay

Nice and cheap like me


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## carverman

Four Pillars said:


> I'm pretty sure that reusing stamps is illegal.


Only if you get caught! 

Below is a blurb from the philatelic society..the law is the law..


...and if the perpretrator of this heinous crime gets caught, he or she will rot in federal penitentiary for "life"...served only bread and water once a day, affixed to the cell wall by wrist and ankle chains , with only rats for visitation purposes, and no colour tv privileges...and forced to recit 1000 times a day...

"I will not ever attempt to defraud Canada Post ...(a crown corporation) who in charter with HER Royal Majesty the Queen in Right in Canada, and her administrators and loyal servants in the government of Canada thereof..
...and promise to refrain from removing, regluing, relicking, resticking AND reusing postage that was previously bought by someone else, and posted on Her Majesty's Postal Service, for the sole purpose of delivering said letter to a third partY, and which was delivered in good haste by Canada Post, to the addressed third party." 

whew!..that's worse that peter piper picked....!" 


and some official legalese on the subject to re-inforce the notion..not to
do it again...or else!

*"x"* was ignoring the Post Ofﬁce Act of August 1850 which states as follows:-“. . . . except by the permission in writing of the Provincial Post Master General, or of some officer or person who under the regulations to be made in that behalf, may lawfully grant such permission, or to have possession of any such plate, die or other thing as aforesaid, without such permission as aforesaid, or to *forge, counterfeit, or unlawfully imitate, use or affix to or upon any letter or packet, any stamp,signature, initials, or other mark or sign purporting that such letter or packet ought to pass free of postage, or at a lower rate of postage*, or that the postage thereon or any part thereof hath been prepaid, or ought to be paid by or charged to any person, department or party whomsoever, shall he felony,* punishable by imprisonment in the Provincial Penitentiary for life”.*However, New Carlisle is a small place even now and "x" may not have realized that it was illegal. Certainly by 1852 he was using a handstamped “3d" as a paid mark.....

Of course, we need some official comment from "The Royal Mail"..on this


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## carverman

Plugging Along said:


> .. reusing stamps is like* sticking a steak in your pants..*. just a really small steak




Store owner: "Ma'm is that a steak in your pants??..or are you just happy to see me?"


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## carverman

Plugging Along said:


> That's the issue with ethics and moral dilemas they are different for each person, whereas the law is the law.


fastforward to a different time..

Court Bailiff: "Your Honour, this is case number 381 on the docket"
Judge: So be it, what is the nature of this case then?"
Crown Attorney: Your, Lardship, if I may, present a case of mail fraud by
one retired gentlemen who goes by the internet identity of "Carverman",
that he did purposely and willfully with full knowledge of his act 
did commit a CRIMINAL offence against the Crown..and it's postal delivery system,
by affixing a reused uncancelled stamp upon a letter, and with full knowledge
he was breaking the law, did mail the letter as such."

Judge: " I see. This is a very serious crime and the law statutes do indicate
that he should be shackled and sent to a penitentiary to serve his time, 
forthwith", as he would probably re-offend, no doubt, being not of sound mind and moral conviction,"

Judge looks directly at the prisoner.."What do you have to say in your defence? 

Carve: Yer Lordship, if I may plead my case before you and the Crown, that
I did not realize it was a grievous offence against the Crown when I committed the act, thereof."

Judge: Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Reusing a postage stamp that
even if uncancelled by Canada Post, is still denying the Crown of it's rightful
revenue, for the delivery of the letter!"

Prisoner: Well, I am truly sorry and I beg the court for forgiveness."

Judge: Well the Crown can use descretion in determining an appropriate
sentence, but in your case, justice will be served. You are hereby sentenced
to serve 20 years in Federal Pententiary, with no chance of parole.

Let this be a lesson to you that Mail Fraud will not be tolerated in
Canada. 

<Carve, led off to prison in ankle chains and handcuffs..weeping and gnashing
of teeth.."i'm sorry, I didn't know......>


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## Plugging Along

carverman said:


> Store owner: "Ma'm is that a steak in your pants??..or are you just happy to see me?"


Someone said that reusing stamps was equivalent to sticking a steak in your pants. I disagreed as one was legal, one wasn't, until someone pointed out that both were illegal. So I had to agree that reusing stamps is like stealing a steak, but it's a small one (like $.52)

Sorry Carve, for some reason between the two of, I have a feeling you are more likely to stick a steak in your pants.


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## carverman

Plugging Along said:


> Someone said that reusing stamps was equivalent to sticking a steak in your pants. I disagreed as one was legal, one wasn't, until someone pointed out that both were illegal. So I had to agree that reusing stamps is like stealing a steak, but it's a small one (like $.52)


Well even if it's loose change these days,( more likely to fall out of
your pocket onto the car seat or through a hole in your pocket, there is a law
somewhere... that indicates that it is illegal and punishable by law to do so. 

Now, I don't think that these days, with the jails being crowded with
more serious crime convicts, that Crown prosecutors and CP is going as far as to prosecute a unpostmarked/cancelled "stamp recycle" by a frugal person. 

Heck, there are thousands upon thousands of stamp collectors that can pull a face value stamp out of their collection, paste it on a letter, and more than likely, CP will deliver them. 

CP has better things to do that go after ever Tom, Dick, (and Carve) to determine how the "relicking" was done, where and what letter..etc..
to make a federal case out of it. 

At worse case, they may actually ask you to go to a postal station and pay the postage and get a receipt that you did. That is more than likely, the extent for the occasional misdemeanor, unless you happen to have a stamp printing press in your home...
and sell these stamps on FleaBay to the general public. 

Then expect the ARCYEMPEE to break down your door and haul you off in
handcuffs to the caliboose, and you might get 2-3 years, probably less with good behaviour. When I see investment scammers bilk the general public out
of millions and practically get away with it... I thinks the days of debtors prisons, and rotting in them for a life sentence are long gone on these minor infractions of the law.



> Sorry Carve, for some reason between the two of, I have a feeling you are more likely to stick a steak in your pants.


 Ah P.A. You are so perceptive. Frankly though, at age 65, the only steak in my pants would be one I drop in a pocket accidentally, while "carving" it with my steak knife( at a free steak bbq),
and it slipping off my plate..not to mention the 3 day mustard stains on my t-shirt for the last hot dog I ate. 

But thank you P.A. for that thought!


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## Plugging Along

Like I said earlier, that just because they will not prosecute you for it, nor is it actually provable, it doesn't make it ethical, and apparently still illegal.


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## carverman

Plugging Along said:


> Like I said earlier, that just because they will not prosecute you for it, nor is it actually provable, it doesn't make it ethical, and apparently still illegal.


Well there are a lot of laws still on the books that haven't been updated for
many years, possibly even a century. Like the Ontario MOT has specific
laws on Horses on highways. I suppose the Amish may still refer to those
laws, but how many others do? 

There used to be a TV show, many years ago..called "This is the Law"..
(on CBC))..and a mock judge with a long white wig and robes, and prosecutor would state the case and actors would act out the "crime", (previously filmed on locale). A panel of TV personalities would then comment and try to understand what law was being
broken. Some times they guess right, some times close but no cigar, and
other times they were stumped. 
If they got stumped, the moderator would explain the law, and how it was
to be applied in a specific area of the country... or city/town ordinance. 

So the last words of each legal scenario were:
In <ie: Moosejaw, Sask>.This is the law!


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