# Stay with job..? Look for new one..??



## Harp (Jul 18, 2012)

So w/out getting into a long/drawn-out story:
-I am 35, married. Work FT as a bookkeeper for a large cleaning company in Toronto area. Yearly my salary is 45k. Hers is 30K. Full benefits for myself and my wife through my job. 41k in debt. Want to raise what I make for reasons: pay off debt totally, pay down mtge and SAVE!!
-problem is this – just came upon my 3rd yr hire anniversary and no raise. Reason: _“…I am at the max at what I do and there really is no other higher area or spots for promotion._” Fair enough.
-because I am loyal I even went as far as asking if I could do cleaning jobs in the eve to get more money – they shot that down as they said they did not want someone involved with their bookkeeping doing cleaning as well. 

So it seems I am stuck doing this job at my rate of pay with no advancement whatsoever.

Is it time to move on to greener pastures? What should I be making for someone my age? Why am I so scared?


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

So they gave you NO raise at all? Inflation is 2%... so if you got no raise, then you actually took a 2% pay cut. Perhaps they are trying to get you to leave but don't actually want to fire you and they figure if they give you no raise you'll leave on your own.

It's been my experience that you have to switch jobs every few years to get any decent pay raises. Every time I switched companies I got a significant pay increase over my previous job.

You should definitely apply to other companies for any positions that you are qualified for. By the way why stay in Toronto, aren't there bookkeeping jobs in other cities with cheaper living costs?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

The way I see it, you have a money management problem, not an income problem. With a household income of $75K there is no reason to be in so much debt.

Making more money won't help a person who cannot manage money - they'll just get into more debt as they expand their lifestyle (nicer, bigger house, newer car, more ejunk etc) to consume the new revenue.

I recommend Suze Orman to help you learn how to manage money. Some people are offended by her approach but her message makes total sense to me.

Oh and unless you want to go into mgmt etc (a different stream) most people are actually fairly limited as to how high they can go unless they retrain and get more degrees, certificates etc. Your situation is pretty common.

Focus on learning how to manage money. That should be your priority. Anything else is a smokescreen IMO though I do like the idea of leaving Toronto for a place with a lower cost of living. But regardless of that, still learn how to manage money.


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## Harp (Jul 18, 2012)

Yeah definitely a money Mngt. Issue and I definitely have taken steps to better myself really budgets, etc. I would just like to know what others would do in my situation re job.
I stayed with them because I am a loyal person. That coupled with "the devil U know is better than the devil U don't know". I get benefits, No wknds. Start early leave early. No late nights or staying late. Need time off I got it, etc.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

I agree with Sherlock.
My prospects for a promotion were recently cooled when I applied for a promotion, and the compant went outside to hire. Being a teacher, the organizational structure is quite rectangular (that is, there are fewer oportunities for advancement). I was aware of this before becoming a teacher, so it wasn't a surprise - but it was a reality check. One suggestion, along with networking and seeking other opportunities, is to draw as much professional development as you can from the company that you are with. Take additional courses, certification (if applicable), conferences etc - not only will you benefit with an increased breadth of knowledge, but you'll be networking with others as well -and when future opportunites arise, you'll be ready. 
just my 2 cents - (go habs)


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## Compounding1 (May 13, 2012)

It sounds other than the lower pay your job isn't so bad so that's a shame. Either way as others have said you need to get your finances under control before you do anything.

Would your current job pay for schooling for you to get a designation like CGA or anything?


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Sherlock said:


> So they gave you NO raise at all? Inflation is 2%... so if you got no raise, then you actually took a 2% pay cut.


Many small and medium sized private companies have not been offering the COLA adjustments since 2009.
That is sadly one of the realities of the recession.
Some resumed in 2011 and some in 2012, but most have pegged the raises to the govt's reported core CPI numbers i.e. around 1.5% or so.

It is only a certain category of workers that are getting 8% to 12% raises every year, guaranteed.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

There is no how much 'should' someone make based on age. It's based on alot of things. 

In terms of what I would do, I would look for another job. You don't owe the company anything, and since you are unable to pay your bills, then this is a problem. 

I would look for another job, while you have one, and see if you can find one better. There is no saying that you have to take the first job. I think this is a better gage of if you are being treated fairly. If you can't find another job that pays more, with similar benefits, then what you are getting for your skills and experience is fair. If you can find something quickly, then you were being paid too little.

Just so you know, I am a very very loyal employee, but I also know what I am worth, and will not put up with being treated poorly. 

The second, but more important, is you need to get your spending under control NOW. This is independant of what you get for income. This is a bigger part of your financial picture. It's not what you make, but what you keep.

Finally, why are you so scared, because for many, change is scary. I think people are willing to stay in a situation that they are happy with for the fear that it may be worse. My theory is that people either overestimate how big the impact of the change really is or they really underestimate their abilities to deal with the change. 

So you move jobs for more money, and similar benefits. What's the worst that could happen?


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

I would consider doing both. You could look for a new job, or you could keep your current position-and get a part time job on the side.

It may be a difficult time to find another better full time job, if you do great!

But you may want to cosider using your skills to do some bookkeeping for another company on the side. Heck any part time job on the side could go directly to the debt.

All the best.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

HaroldCrump said:


> Many small and medium sized private companies have not been offering the COLA adjustments since 2009.


Not just small and medium sized. I work for a very large multinational corporation. I got 0% raise this year. 1% in each of the prior three years. They do it because they can. I'm not going anywhere because I can't possibly find a better paying job in this market.

All the while the company has been doing very well, beating revenue and profit records. The stock is at an all time high. I'm sure stockholders are very happy.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

To OP:

You can try to research compensation levels for someone in your position on Glassdoor.com. The data is supplied by the users. No guarantee that you will find enough data in your geography, but it's definitely worth a try.


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

Harp, M-F and no evenings/weekends is pretty typical for bookkeeping. I would recommend just looking at what other jobs are out there and see how yours compares (or doesn't) and go from there. Best of luck.


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## PrairieGal (Apr 2, 2011)

I have been a bookkeeper for about 20 years, and I make about 15% more than that. Experience does factor into it, and I can ask top dollar. I also have two small bookkeeping jobs that I do from home that pay me even more per hour than my full-time job. That may be something for you to consider.


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## Harp (Jul 18, 2012)

The issue recently is this: 
1) I wasn't given raise and basically told I make top of what I can make in the job I do.
2) We had someone recently quit so they dished-off part of his job - warehouse loading/unloading - onto me - with no compensation or anything. So I am like - wait a minute here, I am doing extra work and not getting paid anything extra. I don't mind work but I am also not a door-mat either. So approached them on it and they say well we will have to wait until your anniversary hire date about any extra increase.

WTF?! So I can go the entire yr thinking there is a small little rainbow at the end for the extra work I have done and end up with nothing - more work without extra pay.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Sure sounds like they are not putting much priority on keeping you happy. Read into that what you will.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Sounds like you are unhappy there. That's probably the best reason to start/keep looking for a new place.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Do what people do when they sell companies. Get a competing order for your employment. If you don't have one, that means your service is currently correctly valued by your employers.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Great analogy.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I'd say you are one of those people who would benefit greatly from having a small part time home based business. You may be aware of the tax benefits of having a small home based business or you may not. 

Also your employers are really pushing it with the accounting/unloading from the warehouse crap. Time to look around.


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## JustAGuy (Feb 5, 2012)

I'd recommend finding a new job. And I'd also keep in mind that just because you may feel you want to demonstrate loyalty to your employer, it is *very rare* that an employer will show loyalty back.

http://lifehacker.com/5898992/skip-the-counteroffer-when-resigning-a-job-to-make-a-graceful-exit


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## Harp (Jul 18, 2012)

Berubeland said:


> I'd say you are one of those people who would benefit greatly from having a small part time home based business. You may be aware of the tax benefits of having a small home based business or you may not.
> 
> Also your employers are really pushing it with the accounting/unloading from the warehouse crap. Time to look around.


I have thought about it for a while. I have the background, experience, etc for all of it. Problem is this: I live in a condo and don't really have an exclusive "office" that is fitting for clients. My uncle started a similar little bkpg business yrs ago but had a house where clients could come and used his bsmt as his office. I could also to tax returns but again, no real office just my condo.

Also, since I work ft I would have to do it in the eve's or wknds, which makes no difference to me as I love the work but how many clients would prefer that as opposed to me being "in-house" or knowing that when they call they can get me right-away as opposed to me getting back to them, say an hr after they call for something.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

^ I think that depending how to market yourself, you could just go to clients places. If you are doing book keeping and taxes for other small businesses, they may appreciate the door to door service. Also, people don't necessarily expect you to be able to drop everything to meet them in an hour. If I contact someone, and they are so flexible, I wonder if they are actually successful or not. 

I know a lawyer, who works out of his clients' 'offices' or homes. He doesn't want to pay the overhead, and he sold it as people are really busy, so he can meet you. 

Stop just coming up with all the reasons that something won't work.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> Stop just coming up with all the reasons that something won't work.


Exactly. Give it a try, use what you have to work with and see what happens.

For the record, I've never met my accountant in person.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Your attitude is more of a problem I find from reading. There are plenty of entrepreneurs who value mobility and really don't care if you have an office or not. So you just haven't discovered those clients yet. Have you even put up an ad on Craigslist yet?

Also. F*ck loyalty. It is a a means of control. The sooner you realize this the better.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

Paddy & Mick Get Laid Off


Paddy and Mick worked together in St. John's and both were laid
off, so they went to the unemployment office. When asked his occupation,
Paddy answered, "Panty Stitcher. I sew the elastic onto ladies cotton
panties and thongs." The clerk looked up panty stitcher on his computer and
finding it classified as unskilled labour, he gave him $80
a week unemployment pay.

Mick was next and when asked his
occupation replied, "Diesel fitter." Since diesel fitter was a skilled
job, the clerk gave Mick $160 a week.

When Paddy found out he
was furious. He stormed back into the office to find out why his friend
and co-worker was collecting double his pay. The clerk explained,
"Panty Stitcher's are unskilled and
Diesel Fitters are skilled
labour."

"What skill?" yelled Paddy. "I sew the elastic on the
panties and the thongs. Mick puts them over his head and says: "Yep,
diesel fitter!"


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Causalien said:


> Also. F*ck loyalty.


+1 The relationship between a company and it's employees is just business. Nothing wrong with that, but people (or employers) who expect loyalty are bound to be disappointed.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

The thin with loyalty is that it shod be reciprocated in terms that the company has your back. I am very loyal to my company itI believe they are looking out for my interests in addition to theirs. You have been told you won't b gettin any more money, nor is here any potential for growth. Exactly what is it that you expected to have in return? Feeling good isn't going to pay our bulls.


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## Harp (Jul 18, 2012)

Plugging Along said:


> The thin with loyalty is that it shod be reciprocated in terms that the company has your back. I am very loyal to my company itI believe they are looking out for my interests in addition to theirs. You have been told you won't b gettin any more money, nor is here any potential for growth. Exactly what is it that you expected to have in return? Feeling good isn't going to pay our bulls.


Maybe its me that's a sucker. I always thought that places wanted someone that always was reaching out, that wasn't just tired of the staying in "the box" and not wanting more. Or maybe its just the dysfunctional place I am currently working in.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

It's possible they misinterpreted you. You wanted to get "out of the box" and they thought that meant you want to move boxes. :stupid:


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## Harp (Jul 18, 2012)

MoneyGal said:


> It's possible they misinterpreted you. You wanted to get "out of the box" and they thought that meant you want to move boxes. :stupid:


LMAO! Walked right into that! Good one!


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Harp said:


> Maybe its me that's a sucker. I always thought that places wanted someone that always was reaching out, that wasn't just tired of the staying in "the box" and not wanting more. Or maybe its just the dysfunctional place I am currently working in.


You're not a sucker. If you were, you wouldn't be questioning things. 

MG - nice one!


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Harp said:


> Maybe its me that's a sucker. I always thought that places wanted someone that always was reaching out, that wasn't just tired of the staying in "the box" and not wanting more. Or maybe its just the dysfunctional place I am currently working in.


It depends on the company's mission and the product they sell. 

You get more of these "think outside the box" enthusiasm on newer companies because they need that to break an entrenched monopoly. An established company where the founders have already retired from active management means that it's just there to make money, so they might say that they value it, but in reality, they just want you on board to do a job that nobody wants to do. Yes, Higher ups hire you to do stuff that they don't want to do, is not worth their time to study and do or are just too incompetent to learn to do when they can just hire someone else to bear the pain. Why else would they hire others if it's worth their time?

Which brings us to the nature of your job as book keeper. It is a done to death formula with government regulations, so I would assume that any employer who tells you that they value outside the box thinking is either just patronizing you or are into scams to hide some huge losses on their books in order to appease investors. In the end, as emplooyees, we are all just pushing papers and levers.


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## LondonHomes (Dec 29, 2010)

See if they would be willing to pay for you to take some additional training. Position it as a win/win since you will be able to add more value to your position.

In either case you should enroll in the CMA or CGA program and start working towards your designation, after completing a few courses you should then start looking for a job with another company.

Just by being enrolled in these professional programs opens up a lot of doors and the great thing about accounting is that every company has a finance department.


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## sharbit (Apr 26, 2012)

Harp said:


> Maybe its me that's a sucker. I always thought that places wanted someone that always was reaching out, that wasn't just tired of the staying in "the box" and not wanting more. Or maybe its just the dysfunctional place I am currently working in.


IMO, it sounds like your discouraged with your work. You should look for a new job before it becomes a problem.

Perhaps look into the CGA/CA/CMA programs. Your income can raise significantly with skills you likely already have; you just need that paper behind your name. I know a lot of CAs and I think they make 65-75k. Maybe consider provinces with better unemployment. I know Alberta has lots of room at CA/CMA firms.

Your most important issue in my opinion is you dont have a plan. Draw up all your options on a pience of paper and pick the best path for you. We can all reply but you're the one that has to make the choice.



Causalien said:


> Also. F*ck loyalty


+1

Labour is a commodity. Just don't jump jobs _too_ often, and don't burn bridges.


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## Harp (Jul 18, 2012)

So after much "looking in the mirror" as well as doing alot of reading, both here and other books, I think its time I looked for something else AND at the same time start a little business on the side re: bookkeeping. 

I think I had just become content and just going to work and in the eve's becoming the proverbial couch potato. I am tired of that. I wanna make more money, clean up my debt and SAVE for the future. That will only happen if I get off my U KNOW WHAT, hunker-down and start pursuing things.

Here's what I have done thusfar:
-totally revamped, updated, streamlined my resume and started to apply for posted jobs on the usual - Kijji, Workopolis, Canada Job Bank, etc.
-started to formulate a business plan for my side bookkeeping business 

But here's my questions:
-For new job search: has anyone ever used a head-hunter and had results? (used them in the past and seemed to be a waste of time)
-How does one obtain a job downtown Toronto - is it all via head-hunters?

-For my side business - I know how I want to market and the avenues I want to go with little or no cost-layout for marketing at the start but it all comes down to registering my business. I know that as soon as I register the gov't says: "oh he is also self-employed" and IF I were to get laid-off through downsize, etc I can pretty much kiss collecting EI goodbye.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I found my only "real job" to date (straight out of college) through a head hunter. However, I'm in IT, so it may be a totally different situation for accountants.

You don't need to register if you're a sole proprietor (business name = your name).


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Harp said:


> For my side business - I know how I want to market and the avenues I want to go with little or no cost-layout for marketing at the start but it all comes down to registering my business. I know that as soon as I register the gov't says: "oh he is also self-employed" and IF I were to get laid-off through downsize, etc I can pretty much kiss collecting EI goodbye.


Was it you I had that super-long fight with on this very topic? :02.47-tranquillity:


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

OK, found a relevant thread (but not a fight, really) here: http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/9901-Starting-small-business-under-spouse

That thread provides all the detail you need to know about how to earn self-employment income and (legally) collect EI.


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## Harp (Jul 18, 2012)

On here? No. I did have a HUGE discussion with someone on a different forum but not this one.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

My discussion was with "Harper77"...a similar username but not the same!


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## Harp (Jul 18, 2012)

MoneyGal said:


> OK, found a relevant thread (but not a fight, really) here: http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/9901-Starting-small-business-under-spouse
> 
> That thread provides all the detail you need to know about how to earn self-employment income and (legally) collect EI.


Some good info - thanks.


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