# Travel plans for this year



## Longtimeago

Given the current situation re coronavirus, our travel plans for this year are on indefinite hold. We had intended to do several trips this year, some short and some longer and farther. But as we do not follow the trend to book far ahead, none are already booked and so we can easily adopt a 'wait and see' attitude.

But a recent news report got my attention when it talked about people who have bookings in the next few months to various places in the world and on cruises. Unless the government puts out a Travel Advisory saying, 'avoid non-essential travel to X', someone with a pre-existing booking cannot cancel and expect to get their money back. Even those who have purchased separate Trip Cancellation insurance cannot expect that insurance policy to get them their money back.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/can-you-cancel-a-flight-due-to-fear-of-coronavirus-1.4800922

In that link you will see the person saying, “If the Canadian government is allowing you to travel somewhere then believe me there is not going to be any issues,” he said. “If they have concerns they would create a travel warning which would trigger trip cancelation.” But that to me is a joke. The Canadian government or anyone else cannot guarantee you that you will be OK. Consider this example of a UK traveller and where and how he passed on the virus.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-coronavirus-French-health-minister-says.html

It could have as easily been some Canadian skiers in that situation. Is there a Travel Advisory against travel to France right now? Answer, no there is not. The fact is, there is no way to know where and how someone might contract the virus. The only way to avoid it is to never leave your home but while that is impractical, avoiding non-essential travel is not impractical.

So what does someone do who had booked travel and will lose money if they do not take the trip? Lose the money or take the risk? I'm just glad we never book more than a few weeks ahead of time and never book non-refundable air travel or hotels when we do travel.


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## Mechanic

I would be avoiding all international airports right now until this virus issue gets resolved, losing money or not. When you see the lengths China is going to, trying to contain it and it's still spreading, makes me very concerned.


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## cainvest

I certainly wouldn't travel to China but many other locations, why not ... the odds appear low.


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## james4beach

I still plan to go to the Caribbean in a few weeks, but I am also paying for Sunwing's extra 'cancellation waiver' which allows even a last minute cancellation (for vouchers) just in case this thing start spreading more rapidly in North America


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## AltaRed

We are off to Mexico very shortly. Not concerned....until there are a bunch of cases in Mexico that is.


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## james4beach

Seems fine to me as well. There haven't been many cases in the Americas.

Does anyone here have experience with the Sunwing cancellation waiver? It sounds awfully flexible if I'm understanding it correctly, provided one is OK with receiving vouchers for future travel.


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## Eclectic12

Longtimeago said:


> ... Even those who have purchased separate Trip Cancellation insurance cannot expect that insurance policy to get them their money back.


A lot depends on the separate insurance bought ... most will be like you say but I have had friends who bought the type that the decision is their choice. They changed their minds, cancelled and were paid.




Longtimeago said:


> ... So what does someone do who had booked travel and will lose money if they do not take the trip? Lose the money or take the risk?


Friends are re-booking as canceling means losing everything where re-booking means a fee plus the fare difference.

For me it would depend on where and what the perceived risk was.


Cheers


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## AltaRed

Travel trip cancellation and interruption insurance is getting too expensive for us now that we have crossed 70 years of age.


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## Eder

I'm booked to travel to Canada in a month...not too worried.


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## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> I certainly wouldn't travel to China but many other locations, why not ... the odds appear low.


Yes, they do. But just ask those who went skiing in the little French village of Contamines-Montjoie and caught the virus there. I mean, what were the chances that someone who caught the virus somewhere else, from someone else who had been to China, would be there at the same time, in the same chalets. A to B to C. Why the chances were 'slim and none' as they say but in their case, 'slim' won the toss of the coin.


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## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I still plan to go to the Caribbean in a few weeks, but I am also paying for Sunwing's extra 'cancellation waiver' which allows even a last minute cancellation (for vouchers) just in case this thing start spreading more rapidly in North America


Sunwing is Scummy AF.
Just look at them.

My personal experience is we landed in Cuba, and while taxiing to the arrivals gate they told us that they had lost their return flight and would update us on when our actual departure is, but didn't expect it to change by more than a few days earlier or later. 
Further that our on resort agent would update us daily.

The "on resort" agent showed up twice that I saw, for less than 2 hours each time, until the morning of our departure when they posted a note on the office door.
It was completely unprofessional and poorly handled.

I wouldn't trust those guys at all.


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## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> Yes, they do. But just ask those who went skiing in the little French village of Contamines-Montjoie and caught the virus there. I mean, what were the chances that someone who caught the virus somewhere else, from someone else who had been to China, would be there at the same time, in the same chalets. A to B to C. Why the chances were 'slim and none' as they say but in their case, 'slim' won the toss of the coin.


So, they "lost the coin toss" as you put it ... that doesn't effect me. Do proper risk assessment and decide for youself. I bet you're more likely to die driving to the airport than catching that virus on a vacation that isn't in China.


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## Longtimeago

AltaRed said:


> We are off to Mexico very shortly. Not concerned....until there are a bunch of cases in Mexico that is.


In the unfortunate event you do by whatever small chance, catch the virus in the airport, on the plane, or on the ground in Mexico, have you checked what facilities and preparations the local Mexican hospital has for your possible stay with them? It is as cainvest suggests, a small chance, it is not a question of 'no chance'. People do win lotteries, in this case it would be like 'losing' the lottery. Sooner or later, someone will be the SECOND confirmed case of coronavirus in Mexico, you're saying you are 'not concerned' about buying a lottery ticket to be the third person. There were 240 Mexican Uber users who had their accounts suspended because there was a possibility they rode in a vehicle in which a recent coronavirus infected person had rode. A to B just because you rode in a Uber or taxi. https://www.businessinsider.com/ube...s-mexico-to-stop-coronavirus-spreading-2020-2

The suspected person did in fact test positive but is not listed as a case in Mexico because he was from the USA and returned to the USA before being diagnosed. https://nypost.com/2020/02/04/coron...y-vacation-before-flying-back-to-los-angeles/ 

So don't think coronavirus has not been present in Mexico yet, it most definitely has. It appears they may have just got lucky in that it was not transmitted or detected in anyone still IN Mexico. There were 13,000 people who travelled from China to Mexico in January. No doubt others have this month on connecting flights. That's why the Mexican Health Ministry is saying the arrival of coronavirus in Mexico is 'imminent'. 

So I'll say again, are you happy with what you can expect from the Mexican healthcare system if you 'win' the lottery?


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## AltaRed

If I get quarantined at our 'all inclusive', I won't be terribly disappointed. 

If I get it, well, I will call on my International extended health benefit insurance to take care of me. Point is that having ex-Canada health insurance is more important to me than sunk costs on plane tickets.


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## ian

We have another six weeks to go making our way up the Pacific coast of Mexico from Hualulco to Mazatlan. Just spent two weeks in Merida, Playa, and Puerto Morelos.

Sept/Oct is pretty well locked down to Morocco, Spain, and Portugal. Next winter hopefully back to Thailand.


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## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> So, they "lost the coin toss" as you put it ... that doesn't effect me. Do proper risk assessment and decide for youself. I bet you're more likely to die driving to the airport than catching that virus on a vacation that isn't in China.


I'd rather try to avoid either possibility if I can. I can't avoid driving entirely but I can avoid taking a trip. Using logic of the type you have attempted cainvest, is simply not logical at all. That one thing is more likely than another is not a question of one ruling out the other as not something to be concerned about. 

Just how do you do a 'proper risk assessment' cainvest? Are you qualified in assessing such a risk? I use a reputable organization to determine what the risk is to me. In this case, I trust no individual government body's assessment since they have too many influences both political and economic that tend to make them downplay the risk as much and for as long as they can. The only organization that I listen to in cases like this is the World Health Organization and their assessment of the risk as being the LEAST influenced by politics or economic fallout. But even they are not without criticism. Their current assessment of the Risk at present is HIGH globally and has been since the end of January. 

They still have not designated it as Public Health Emergency. When they do that, that's when the crap really hits the fan. I don't think that I want to wait till they raise it to that risk level before I decide to curtail my travel plans. But to each his own, I suggest checking on what to expect in terms of healthcare if you do decide to travel somewhere. The last thing I would want is some less than great healthcare if I did contract the virus.
https://www.sciencealert.com/who-tries-to-correct-wuhan-coronavirus-risk-level


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## Eder

ian said:


> We have another six weeks to go making our way up the Pacific coast of Mexico to Mazatlan. .


You might already know but hit up Las Brochetas
Really good chicken molcajete and local big *** shrimp.
Bring your own wine...liquor store across the street. Use a pulmonías to get around...cheap.
I guess it shows I really miss that town.


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## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> I'd rather try to avoid either possibility if I can. I can't avoid driving entirely but I can avoid taking a trip. Using logic of the type you have attempted cainvest, is simply not logical at all. That one thing is more likely than another is not a question of one ruling out the other as not something to be concerned about.


You obviously missed the point of the comparison, the risks of dying while driving are small, not many people give it a second thought when they get into their cars for the daily routine, I know I don't, I'm guessing maybe you do? To me, the risk of dying from the coronavirus are equally as small so I don't really give it a second thought but I would dig much deeper into it if I was going to China.



Longtimeago said:


> Just how do you do a 'proper risk assessment' cainvest? Are you qualified in assessing such a risk?


Of course I'm qualified to assess my own risks, being an adult, I do it all the time. 
For something like this it's just a pure numbers game, very few are infected outside of China so the risk is minimal for nearby vacation travel. Also remember the mortality rate is 1% so even if you do get it there is a good chance you're be ok unless you're already sick or weak.


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## AltaRed

Apparently best current estimate is 2% from what I recently read, but point taken.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/


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## nobleea

We did a lot of international travel last year, so won't be much this year.
Trip to Vegas. Fly to Ontario. Maybe a weekend trip to California.

My inlaws have a south american cruise booked next month I think.


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## james4beach

I must admit I have some hesitations about my upcoming travel, but it's just so _damned_ cold here. The winds are picking up tonight and windchill drops to -40 to -45 overnight ... tomorrow the daytime *high* will be -25 C. Admittedly it's only a two day stretch of insanely cold weather but this kind of thing wears on a person over a span of months.

Going to Mexico/etc is a +53 C temperature differential. _It's fifty three degrees warmer!_


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## gardner

Heading to Barbados in a few hours. I have not been there in 50 years. Think it's changed?


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## Plugging Along

We have already had really think about the Coronavirus impact on travel. This was supposed to be a huge travel year for our family.

We were thinking of heading to the US to visit some family in March or in the summer and decided there so much going on and that we don't want to book yet depending on what's going in. Plus the person we will visit/stay with is required to fly to Asia almost monthly. They are in in potential contact with higher risk individuals frequently their company does work between Hong Kong and China all the time.

We also had considered a big anniversary trip to Japan then Taiwan. We decided to hold off for another year. We had done a lot of the research and now have decided to hold.

Then we also had a larger family reunion planned on a cruise ship in at Christmas, we were just planning to book two weeks ago and decided to wait and see.

We are currently not booking much in advance as we don't want to be in large airports or confined to cruise ships until there is better control of the virus.

My in laws booked a last minute cruise trip in beginning of January that left this week to from Australia ended in Hong Kong. We tried to get them to cancel, the cruise has diverted the last port to Singapore, and we just hope they are okay. I sent them with some mask, hand sanitizer and alcohol wipes and extra things for the cabin in case there are stuck in quarantine. We didn't want them to go, but they didn't want to lose the money and felt it was be fine. Hopefully all works out. We drove them to the airport, but have told them, that will we not see them for 15 days after then get home.


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## hfp75

Well, flu season is October to March, and it will peak in the middle. So travel after March should pose the least risk....


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## cainvest

hfp75 said:


> Well, flu season is October to March, and it will peak in the middle. So travel after March should pose the least risk....


There's another good comparison to get perspective ... how many regular flu season deaths are there worldwide compared to the coronavirus?


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## jargey3000

another reason why we, & many others, love good ol' Florida as a vacation destination...


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## Longtimeago

AltaRed said:


> Apparently best current estimate is 2% from what I recently read, but point taken.
> 
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/


Mortality rate must always be looked at in conjunction with the infection rate. SARS had a 10% mortality rate but only infected 8,000 people roughly. So the transmission rate was low. This coronavirus has a higher infection rate by far, so the lower mortality rate will continue to kill more people than SARS did, it already has. 

Take a look at the Swine flu pandemic of 2009 for a different comparison. That had a very high rate of contagion. The WHO has said it is still too early to determine just how dangerous this coronavirus is in terms of contagion numbers or mortality rate. The swine flu of 2009, in the USA alone, resulted in, "_From April 12, 2009 to April 10, 2010, CDC estimated there were 60.8 million cases (range: 43.3-89.3 million), 274,304 hospitalizations (range: 195,086-402,719), and 12,469 deaths (range: 8868-18,306) in the United States due to the (H1N1)pdm09 virus._" 

That was a high rate of contagion and low rate of mortality vs. SARS. No can yet tell us where this coronavirus will end up in terms of either of those factors yet. Worldwide the swine flu killed at least 150,000 people in 2009-2010 and still continues to kill people today even though we now have a vaccine for it. 
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/2009-h1n1-pandemic.html

The point is, if the risk of contagion is high, knowing the mortality rate is low is not a reason to ignore it. The mortality rate of swine flu was only .002% while the infection rate was 20% worldwide. But try telling the at LEAST 150,000 (estimated to have been as high as 500,000 due to poor reporting in many 3rd world countries) it killed that their risk was low and they should go ahead and go on their cruise or vacation without concern.


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## Longtimeago

hfp75 said:


> Well, flu season is October to March, and it will peak in the middle. So travel after March should pose the least risk....


Brilliant thinking hfp75. Now take a look at the timeline for Swine flu. It started in April, 2009 and went right through to the summer of 2010 in 2 waves. The second wave started in August, 2009. 

So much for travel after March 'posing the least risk.'

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/2009-pandemic-timeline.html


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## Longtimeago

Plugging Along said:


> We have already had really think about the Coronavirus impact on travel. This was supposed to be a huge travel year for our family.
> 
> We were thinking of heading to the US to visit some family in March or in the summer and decided there so much going on and that we don't want to book yet depending on what's going in. Plus the person we will visit/stay with is required to fly to Asia almost monthly. They are in in potential contact with higher risk individuals frequently their company does work between Hong Kong and China all the time.
> 
> We also had considered a big anniversary trip to Japan then Taiwan. We decided to hold off for another year. We had done a lot of the research and now have decided to hold.
> 
> Then we also had a larger family reunion planned on a cruise ship in at Christmas, we were just planning to book two weeks ago and decided to wait and see.
> 
> We are currently not booking much in advance as we don't want to be in large airports or confined to cruise ships until there is better control of the virus.
> 
> My in laws booked a last minute cruise trip in beginning of January that left this week to from Australia ended in Hong Kong. We tried to get them to cancel, the cruise has diverted the last port to Singapore, and we just hope they are okay. I sent them with some mask, hand sanitizer and alcohol wipes and extra things for the cabin in case there are stuck in quarantine. We didn't want them to go, but they didn't want to lose the money and felt it was be fine. Hopefully all works out. We drove them to the airport, but have told them, that will we not see them for 15 days after then get home.


Sensible thinking Plugging Along. One comment you made in your response regarding your in-laws, that bears thought is, "but they didn't want to lose the money and felt it was be fine." Many people have no difficulty self-justifying a decision even when it flies in the face of logic. Their cruise ship going to the area with the most cases and as a result cruise ships are now having difficulty finding anywhere that will let them dock, changes their final port to Singapore. Meanwhile the QE2 looking at the situation has just left Thailand opting to avoid Singapore and go to Australia. 
https://www.watoday.com.au/national...e-amid-coronavirus-fears-20200210-p53zac.html

Who knows what the situation will be when your in-laws get to Singapore? Not allowed to dock? Stuck at sea like the Westerdam? Yeah, I'd just rush to get on that ship because I don't want to lose the money.


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## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> There's another good comparison to get perspective ... how many regular flu season deaths are there worldwide compared to the coronavirus?


Cainvest, instead of making off the cuff remarks, why don't you try finding the answer to your question yourself and then report back on what you learned? 

Here is an answer to your question. https://www.livescience.com/new-coronavirus-compare-with-flu.html

If you don't want to take the time to read it, the bottom line is THEY DON'T KNOW how it will compare yet.


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## sags

I don't think comparisons to the usual flu are very useful.

There are massive containment efforts underway, including the quarantine of tens of millions of people, for the coronavirus and virtually no containment efforts for the usual flu. 

The only coordinated defense against the usual flu virus are annual flu shots.

I have heard experts say that without containment efforts this could quickly turn into a catastrophic global pandemic and that is something we really don't want.

_The Spanish flu pandemic of 1918, the deadliest in history, infected an estimated 500 million people worldwide—about one-third of the planet's population—and killed an estimated 20 million to 50 million victims, including some 675,000 Americans._

The world is more densely populated today. Millions of people travel around the earth every day. Contact with others is almost unavoidable sooner or later.

Unfortunately, the world economy depends heavily on Chinese suppliers. They provide almost everything to everybody at some point in the global supply chain. 

Millions of Chinese people are returning to work today. We shall see what happens to the infection rate when large crowds start gathering together again.

Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.


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## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> Cainvest, instead of making off the cuff remarks, why don't you try finding the answer to your question yourself and then report back on what you learned?


And deny you the joy of learning how to estimate the risk for yourself, nah.


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## Plugging Along

Longtimeago said:


> Sensible thinking Plugging Along. One comment you made in your response regarding your in-laws, that bears thought is, "but they didn't want to lose the money and felt it was be fine." Many people have no difficulty self-justifying a decision even when it flies in the face of logic. Their cruise ship going to the area with the most cases and as a result cruise ships are now having difficulty finding anywhere that will let them dock, changes their final port to Singapore. Meanwhile the QE2 looking at the situation has just left Thailand opting to avoid Singapore and go to Australia.
> https://www.watoday.com.au/national...e-amid-coronavirus-fears-20200210-p53zac.html
> 
> Who knows what the situation will be when your in-laws get to Singapore? Not allowed to dock? Stuck at sea like the Westerdam? Yeah, I'd just rush to get on that ship because I don't want to lose the money.



We shared the same sentiment with my in laws. We told them about how they are handling the quarantines and the risks. They are grown adults and at the end of the day it’s up to them. They were set on goIng. Once they made that decision the best I could do was send them off with a care package of alcohol wipes, disinfectant, etc and then if they get quarantined tot heir room an ozone air purifying to help clean the air, and some supplies if they are stuck there. This comes down to the individuals assessment of risk.


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## Longtimeago

Plugging Along said:


> We shared the same sentiment with my in laws. We told them about how they are handling the quarantines and the risks. They are grown adults and at the end of the day it’s up to them. They were set on goIng. Once they made that decision the best I could do was send them off with a care package of alcohol wipes, disinfectant, etc and then if they get quarantined tot heir room an ozone air purifying to help clean the air, and some supplies if they are stuck there. This comes down to the individuals assessment of risk.


Unfortunately, some people are unable to identify risk for themselves Plugging Along as your in-laws and cainvest have demonstrated. Instead, they self-justify a stupid decision.

Here we have people talking about still carrying on as if nothing was happening and they have nothing to worry about. We get comments like, 'I think it is safe to travel on my already booked vacation to X'. Meanwhile, we have large companies cancelling participation in events that would require their employees to travel and put them at UNNECESSARY risk. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51474116

What's the risk of contracting the coronavirus at an event in Barcelona, Spain? No doubt some here would like to tell us it's not something to worry about. Meanwhile Deutsche Telekom say 'it would be 'irresponsible' to send their employees to a large gathering with so many international guests.'

Take a look at the last two paragraphs in that link. While the GSMA has had to cancel the event, what they wanted was for Spain to declare a 'Health Emergency'. Why? Because, _" its insurance policies would not cover the GSMA's losses, if the organisation chose to cancel the event, rather than being required to do so by authorities declaring a health emergency."
_

It's all about money. Why did the cruise line not cancel your in-laws cruise? They can see what is happening with other cruise ships as easily as we can. Or why did the cruise line not offer a full refund for anyone who was concerned and choose to cancel their trip? 

I saw a news clip this morning in which a woman on the Diamond Princess quarantined in Japan was saying, 'all we want is to get home'. There were 44 new cases reported on the ship today. Well, guess what, that woman is not going to get to go home anytime soon.
https://nypost.com/2020/02/13/44-ne...orted-on-quarantined-diamond-princess-cruise/

Imagine being stuck on that ship with people being diagnosed positive every day and you have no way to get away from them. You are just sitting and waiting to get sick. What is your psychological condition? What do you suppose anyone on that ship would say about 'losing their money' now? Hindsight is always 20/20.

I would suggest your in-laws did NOT assess risk, they assessed LOSS. They are not the same thing. If someone is going to assess a health risk, they CANNOT include money in the assessment at all. That they TOOK all the precautionary items you supplied them tells me that in fact, they were acknowledging the potential health risk but were choosing to ignore that because of the LOSS of money risk being of higher priority to them.


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## sags

They are trying to figure out how the virus is spreading on a ship were everyone is quarantined to their rooms.

Some think it might be spreading via the ship's plumbing. Others think it might be the crew, who are not isolated or protected and are delivering meals etc to the passengers every day.

Whatever the reason, the virus is spreading within a mandatory quarantined area and that is not a good sign.


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## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> Unfortunately, some people are unable to identify risk for themselves Plugging Along as your in-laws and cainvest have demonstrated. Instead, they self-justify a stupid decision.


Obviously how you identify risk and how I do it are completely different. Sure, it may seem like a stupid decision from your point of view and I'm ok with that. From my point of view you live in an artificially elevated "fear zone" unable to grasp the simple logic of basic statistics. You can choose to hide under your bed for every flu season in Canada if that makes you happy while I continue on with my normal life correctly realizing that the risk is minimal to me. In the end everyone has to decide for themselves.


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## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> Obviously how you identify risk and how I do it are completely different. Sure, it may seem like a stupid decision from your point of view and I'm ok with that. From my point of view you live in an artificially elevated "fear zone" unable to grasp the simple logic of basic statistics. You can choose to hide under your bed for every flu season in Canada if that makes you happy while I continue on with my normal life correctly realizing that the risk is minimal to me. In the end everyone has to decide for themselves.


Yes, cainvest, you are wonderful.


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## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> Yes, cainvest, you are wonderful.


Aw shucks LTA. 

Hey, I'm just stating my viewpoint. Everyone has to draw their own line in the sand. 
Yes you can go on posting about the few people in the world that have it real bad right now or how companies have cancelled trips. Of course on the flip side there are many thousands that are enjoying their vacations in low or non-infected areas.

When/how do you decide on whether travel is "ok".
Spain has 2 reported cases ... ok to go there?
UK has 9 reported cases ... ok to go there?
US has 15 reported cases ... ok to go there?
China almost 60,000 cases ... ok to go there?

Also Canada has 7 reported cases ... ok to go about your daily routine?

Or one could just take an alarmist stance of don't travel and stay home until this all blows over.


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## Eder

Some live in fear and fear to live.


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## Eclectic12

sags said:


> They are trying to figure out how the virus is spreading on a ship were everyone is quarantined to their rooms.
> Some think it might be spreading via the ship's plumbing. Others think it might be the crew, who are not isolated or protected and are delivering meals etc to the passengers every day ...


Let's see ... people staying in their cabins ... maybe the ventilation system?
I doubt it was built to filter out a virus.


Cheers


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## Plugging Along

Longtimeago said:


> Unfortunately, some people are unable to identify risk for themselves Plugging Along as your in-laws and cainvest have demonstrated. Instead, they self-justify a stupid decision.
> 
> Here we have people talking about still carrying on as if nothing was happening and they have nothing to worry about. We get comments like, 'I think it is safe to travel on my already booked vacation to X'. Meanwhile, we have large companies cancelling participation in events that would require their employees to travel and put them at UNNECESSARY risk. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51474116
> 
> What's the risk of contracting the coronavirus at an event in Barcelona, Spain? No doubt some here would like to tell us it's not something to worry about. Meanwhile Deutsche Telekom say 'it would be 'irresponsible' to send their employees to a large gathering with so many international guests.'
> 
> Take a look at the last two paragraphs in that link. While the GSMA has had to cancel the event, what they wanted was for Spain to declare a 'Health Emergency'. Why? Because, _" its insurance policies would not cover the GSMA's losses, if the organisation chose to cancel the event, rather than being required to do so by authorities declaring a health emergency."
> _
> 
> It's all about money. Why did the cruise line not cancel your in-laws cruise? They can see what is happening with other cruise ships as easily as we can. Or why did the cruise line not offer a full refund for anyone who was concerned and choose to cancel their trip?
> 
> Imagine being stuck on that ship with people being diagnosed positive every day and you have no way to get away from them. You are just sitting and waiting to get sick. What is your psychological condition? What do you suppose anyone on that ship would say about 'losing their money' now? Hindsight is always 20/20.
> 
> I would suggest your in-laws did NOT assess risk, they assessed LOSS. They are not the same thing. If someone is going to assess a health risk, they CANNOT include money in the assessment at all. That they TOOK all the precautionary items you supplied them tells me that in fact, they were acknowledging the potential health risk but were choosing to ignore that because of the LOSS of money risk being of higher priority to them.


I would disagree. They did assess the risk. Loss is a factor in assessing risk, and money is absolutely a factor in that assessment. They took all the factors including health, finance, money and a few other things and choose to prioritize them differently than I did. That's perfectly fine. 

I also have another family member who needs to fly back and forth between Asia and his home monthly. Unless he leaves the company, he needs to do this. As a result, he follows the travel protocol their company has put in place. He has accessed all of the risks and has made his choices, nothing wrong with that. 

To be honest, if I was in my in laws position, I would have seriously considered going too. The deciding factor for me would have been my kids because the risk would be too great for them. If was just my spouse and I and we didn't have to come home to take care of anyone, I might have done it.


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## Longtimeago

Plugging Along said:


> I would disagree. They did assess the risk. Loss is a factor in assessing risk, and money is absolutely a factor in that assessment. They took all the factors including health, finance, money and a few other things and choose to prioritize them differently than I did. That's perfectly fine.
> 
> I also have another family member who needs to fly back and forth between Asia and his home monthly. Unless he leaves the company, he needs to do this. As a result, he follows the travel protocol their company has put in place. He has accessed all of the risks and has made his choices, nothing wrong with that.
> 
> To be honest, if I was in my in laws position, I would have seriously considered going too. The deciding factor for me would have been my kids because the risk would be too great for them. If was just my spouse and I and we didn't have to come home to take care of anyone, I might have done it.


Everyone is indeed free to make their own decisions Plugging Along, I don't disagree with that at all. All I am saying is they did not assess the 'health risk', they assessed the risk as you say of various factors. If they had just assessed the health risk, I would have thought they would come to a different decision as to whether it was a good idea to go on a cruise in Asia. Money is NOT a factor in assessing a health risk. 

Many companies are choosing to suspend all travel to parts at least of Asia until more is known. That your relatives employer has not chosen to do so is their choice and your relatives choice of whether to continue to travel to Asia is his choice. But again, I would ask was the assessment and choice made solely on the health risk or was money included in the decision. The answer I think is obvious.

I do not see any need to panic over this virus or 'hide under the bed' as one poster seems to think is the case of anyone who chooses to be prudent. But at the same time, while there is no need to panic, it is not prudent to ignore the potential HEALTH risk of travel in the immediate and near future. Right now with so much still unknown, it is simply prudent to avoid travel if you can. All the cases being reported are related to people who have travelled or come into contact with someone who has. 

When the 5 people who were infected at a ski resort in France got infected by a man who had travelled to that resort from Asia, I'm sure before they left, those 5 people if asked would have said something like, 'I don't see any real risk of getting coronavirus at a ski resort in France'. But I'm willing to bet if asked they would also have said, 'If we cancel now, we lose our money.' 

All I'm suggesting is that people make their own choice but make it solely on how they assess the health risk and leave money out of it.


----------



## Plugging Along

Longtimeago said:


> Everyone is indeed free to make their own decisions Plugging Along, I don't disagree with that at all. All I am saying is they did not assess the 'health risk', they assessed the risk as you say of various factors. If they had just assessed the health risk, I would have thought they would come to a different decision as to whether it was a good idea to go on a cruise in Asia. Money is NOT a factor in assessing a health risk.
> 
> Many companies are choosing to suspend all travel to parts at least of Asia until more is known. That your relatives employer has not chosen to do so is their choice and your relatives choice of whether to continue to travel to Asia is his choice. But again, I would ask was the assessment and choice made solely on the health risk or was money included in the decision. The answer I think is obvious.
> 
> I do not see any need to panic over this virus or 'hide under the bed' as one poster seems to think is the case of anyone who chooses to be prudent. But at the same time, while there is no need to panic, it is not prudent to ignore the potential HEALTH risk of travel in the immediate and near future. Right now with so much still unknown, it is simply prudent to avoid travel if you can. All the cases being reported are related to people who have travelled or come into contact with someone who has.
> 
> When the 5 people who were infected at a ski resort in France got infected by a man who had travelled to that resort from Asia, I'm sure before they left, those 5 people if asked would have said something like, 'I don't see any real risk of getting coronavirus at a ski resort in France'. But I'm willing to bet if asked they would also have said, 'If we cancel now, we lose our money.'
> 
> All I'm suggesting is that people make their own choice but make it solely on how they assess the health risk and leave money out of it.


That's the difficult part, when assessing risk, it's usually not binary. There are many factors to consider. Even though you are primarily looking at the health risks, I know that's not your only factor otherwise you would isolate yourself from any humans. Each of these decisions needs to be made considering a multitude of factors. Of course money is a factor that doesn't make it wrong. I don't think any can say they never have made decisions on risk depending on money too. It's one of the triple constraints in life. 

In fact, when I did some high level expected monetary value calculations of whether the they should go or not, depending on the probability impact factors I put in, many of them say that it was safe for my in laws to go. However, that's the problem with risk, is by definition there is a lot of unknowns. 

In my present scenario, we were just on the verge of putting down a non refundable deposit on the family cruise. We decided to wait. The risk of waiting to book our cruise is that we wouldn't get our rooms, itinerary or choices that we wanted. This was weighed against the risks of the Corona virus impacts in the summer which are unknown. Would we make a different choice of the cruise if we had already paid and were leaving a few weeks. Maybe, maybe not.

You could also look at the dozens/hundreds of cruise ships that have been sailing without any major problems.


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> All I'm suggesting is that people make their own choice but make it solely on how they assess the health risk and leave money out of it.


So ignoring all else but the health risk, how does one decide to travel to a destination right now?


----------



## Eder

cainvest said:


> So ignoring all else but the health risk, how does one decide to travel to a destination right now?


Sounds like some on this thread should book a holiday here...https://www.mayoclinic.org/patient-visitor-guide/florida


----------



## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> So ignoring all else but the health risk, how does one decide to travel to a destination right now?


That's easy cainvest, you do not make any plans to travel or book travel, in the immediate future. Just as Plugging Along has just done by not booking a cruise they were on the 'verge' of booking with a 'non-refundable deposit'. Don't add that money factor into the equation. If you can book a totally refundable, no questions asked (there is such insurance available) trip, you could do that and keep money out of your decision when the time comes to take the trip. But the reality is as I am sure you realize, once people have 'money on the line', it becomes their major factor in most cases. 

Given all the unknowns about this virus, it is simply prudent to wait and see how things develop.


----------



## Longtimeago

Eder said:


> Sounds like some on this thread should book a holiday here...https://www.mayoclinic.org/patient-visitor-guide/florida


Please Eder, do not talk about holidaying in Florida. That's the stuff of nightmares to me. If you are going to suggest a holiday at a Mayo Clinic, try one in a more acceptable location. https://jobs.mayoclinic.org/locations/Arizona

Although personally, I would opt instead for a holiday near a Scripps Clinic. My personal choice would be their Torrey Pines location and I would stay in either La Jolla or my own preference, Del Mar. https://www.scripps.org/locations/scripps-clinic/scripps-clinic-torrey-pines?tab=overview

Golf course next door, nice hiking, surfing and plenty of good restaurants nearby. Great scenery too.
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...nAhWrTd8KHYxkCXsQ7Al6BAgKEDM&biw=1366&bih=657


----------



## Longtimeago

The USA are now saying they will fly people from the Diamond Princess cruise ship currently under quarantine in Japan, back to the USA.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/15/poli...us-evacuate-quarantine-cruise-ship/index.html

They will not take anyone who shows symptoms and those who do choose to take the flights back to the USA will have to go into a new 14 day quarantine once they arrive back in the USA. That makes sense to me.

But what about all the other passengers? As it stands, they are currently planned to disembark from the ship beginning Feb. 21 which is the end of the original 14 day quarantine period. However, positive cases continue to be reported on the ship. So when the other 3,000+ passengers disembark and assuming they show no visible symptoms, are they just going to be allowed to get on any commercial flight back to their home country? 

What I'm getting at is normally, a quarantine period lasts for a specified time AFTER the last positive case occurs. So by that standard, every day a new case is reported would restart the 14 day clock. See what I'm saying. They have just reported 67 new cases on the ship. https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20200215_25/ That would say to me they now have to wait 14 days from now before disembarking anyone. 

It is interesting to note on the first link that the USA government is saying that those who are symptom free but do NOT choose to get on the charter flights back to the USA, will NOT be allowed to return to the USA. From the link: _"Those who choose not to take the charter flights "will be unable to return to the United States for a period of time," which the CDC will have final say in the matter."_

So what that is saying is if the Japanese government allows passengers to disembark starting Feb. 21, the American passengers in that group will not be allowed to fly back to the USA. That also makes some sense to me in that they will not have undergone a true 14 day quarantine since the last reported positive case and so you would not want them just on a regular flight, walking through an arrival airport and perhaps taking a taxi home and going back to work the next day. 

Meanwhile, what will the Canadian passengers(and all other nationalities) who start disembarking on Feb. 21 be doing?


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> That's easy cainvest, you do not make any plans to travel or book travel, in the immediate future. Just as Plugging Along has just done by not booking a cruise they were on the 'verge' of booking with a 'non-refundable deposit'. Don't add that money factor into the equation. If you can book a totally refundable, no questions asked (there is such insurance available) trip, you could do that and keep money out of your decision when the time comes to take the trip. But the reality is as I am sure you realize, once people have 'money on the line', it becomes their major factor in most cases.
> 
> Given all the unknowns about this virus, it is simply prudent to wait and see how things develop.


To me that's not an assesment of heath related travel risk it's just taking an alarmist point of view. Yes it would be prudent to stay out of China, maybe even certain parts of Asia but for the rest of the world the risk is minimal.


----------



## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> To me that's not an assesment of heath related travel risk it's just taking an alarmist point of view. Yes it would be prudent to stay out of China, maybe even certain parts of Asia but for the rest of the world the risk is minimal.


Sigh, whenever someone suggests 'prudence' someone always tries to suggest that means 'alarmist' or some other equal descriptor. Tell me cainvest, on what evidence do you arrive at the OPINION that risk is minimal? The WHO are currently rating the Global risk as HIGH. But you somehow see it as minimal. Who should I listen to, the WHO or you?

https://www.who.int/docs/default-so...00214-sitrep-25-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=61dda7d_2

If the WHO rated the risk as LOW, I would agree with you cainvest but agreeing with you based solely on your opinion, not gonna happen.


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> Sigh, whenever someone suggests 'prudence' someone always tries to suggest that means 'alarmist' or some other equal descriptor. Tell me cainvest, on what evidence do you arrive at the OPINION that risk is minimal? The WHO are currently rating the Global risk as HIGH. But you somehow see it as minimal. Who should I listen to, the WHO or you?
> 
> https://www.who.int/docs/default-so...00214-sitrep-25-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=61dda7d_2
> 
> If the WHO rated the risk as LOW, I would agree with you cainvest but agreeing with you based solely on your opinion, not gonna happen.


I agree you need to decide for yourself. My evidence is based on numbers, only 2 deaths outside China (Japan and Philippines) and minimal amount infected in the US and Canada plus zero cases directly south of the US. I wouldn't give it a second thought about vacation plans south of the US right now.


----------



## Plugging Along

Longtimeago said:


> Sigh, whenever someone suggests 'prudence' someone always tries to suggest that means 'alarmist' or some other equal descriptor. Tell me cainvest, on what evidence do you arrive at the OPINION that risk is minimal? The WHO are currently rating the Global risk as HIGH. But you somehow see it as minimal. Who should I listen to, the WHO or you?
> 
> https://www.who.int/docs/default-so...00214-sitrep-25-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=61dda7d_2
> 
> If the WHO rated the risk as LOW, I would agree with you cainvest but agreeing with you based solely on your opinion, not gonna happen.


WHO’s recommendation for international travellers 


> International travellers: practice usual precautions


Looking at ONLY the health risk of Coronavirus is not a very good risk analysis technique. 

I will exercise prudence for my travels during March spring break by choosing not to get on plane, but I will drive down south of the border. Though I personally wouldn’t go on a cruise ship that goes near Asia, my in laws informed us that the cruise line will spend more time in Australia and has decided to pick a different disembarking port that is not in any of those centres with Corona cases. Also they considered due to the length of the cruise (much than 14 days), the feel they would have an idea if any passengers came on with the virus. So far all of the earlier ports they are going to have no reported cases in those countries. 

Sounds like the made the right decision. Our biggest concerns for them were the final stops in Asia and flying back out of Singapore. The cruise line felt those were higher risks too and changed the itinary . These were all things that we all discussed. It sounds like they may have been right.


----------



## AltaRed

We just arrived in Mexico 2 days ago directly from Kelowna. Interestingly we were asked by the Westjet agent if we had been in China the previous 14 days.


----------



## sags

The WHO panel isn't even there yet. They will be on the ground on Monday.

China won't let the US send a team. They are arresting journalists posting videos on Youtube (people should view them). The Chinese are acting very secretively.

They are arresting people who break voluntary quarantine and issued a military emergency. There is a new quarantine on Beijing.

An aircraft from San Francisco to the UK was in flight, when the pilot announced there was an infected person on board. Everyone on board has to be held in quarantine.

The numbers of health workers dying is frightening...1700 and counting. Hospitals have become warehouses of bodies on mattresses with no medical assistance at all.

The head of the CDC says the virus will spread to North American eventually. They are just trying to buy some time hoping for a vaccine to be developed.

Anyone who travels risks quarantine, but that is up to them to accept or not. What is up to Canadians is if we want to continue to "save" people caught in other countries.

People choose to go...their risk. People want to come back...our risk. Everyone coming back to Canada should be held under a strict mandatory quarantine.

Another case in BC, the woman never visited China. She had friends visit from Wuhan and contracted the virus. Where are her friends and how did they get into Canada ?

Too many questions and too few answers. The US and many countries have closed their doors. It is past time Canada started taking this epidemic seriously.


----------



## cainvest

Plugging Along said:


> WHO’s recommendation for international travellers
> 
> 
> 
> International travellers: practice usual precautions
Click to expand...

Exactly, WHO is not saying don't travel.

I would imagine if the numbers started showing a possible pandemic WHO would strongly recommend travel restrictions be put in place.


----------



## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> I agree you need to decide for yourself. My evidence is based on numbers, only 2 deaths outside China (Japan and Philippines) and minimal amount infected in the US and Canada plus zero cases directly south of the US. I wouldn't give it a second thought about vacation plans south of the US right now.


How about vacation plans west of the USA?

This couple could as easily have been staying in any hotel, anywhere in the world. Maybe the one you wouldn't give a second thought to. 

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation...-a-tourist-couple-falls-ill-with-coronavirus/


----------



## Longtimeago

Plugging Along said:


> WHO’s recommendation for international travellers
> 
> 
> Looking at ONLY the health risk of Coronavirus is not a very good risk analysis technique.
> 
> I will exercise prudence for my travels during March spring break by choosing not to get on plane, but I will drive down south of the border. Though I personally wouldn’t go on a cruise ship that goes near Asia, my in laws informed us that the cruise line will spend more time in Australia and has decided to pick a different disembarking port that is not in any of those centres with Corona cases. Also they considered due to the length of the cruise (much than 14 days), the feel they would have an idea if any passengers came on with the virus. So far all of the earlier ports they are going to have no reported cases in those countries.
> 
> Sounds like the made the right decision. Our biggest concerns for them were the final stops in Asia and flying back out of Singapore. The cruise line felt those were higher risks too and changed the itinary . These were all things that we all discussed. It sounds like they may have been right.


Good to hear the cruiseline opted for a more prudent itinerary Plugging Along. Their risk assessment obviously changed.


----------



## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> Exactly, WHO is not saying don't travel.
> 
> I would imagine if the numbers started showing a possible pandemic WHO would strongly recommend travel restrictions be put in place.


It is naive to expect WHO or any government organization of any country to put real restrictions on travel in place until they are basically FORCED to do so. The impact on the economy of the world is already being felt. Travel warnings will ALWAYS lag behind the curve. Canada has still not upgraded travel to China from 'avoid non-essential travel' to 'avoid all travel' which is the maximum warning. So what you are saying is if someone has a business meeting in China to attend that it is a good idea to go to that meeting? It is after all in compliance with the current Canada warning of 'avoid non-essential travel', since it is essential as far as they are concerned.

Do not underestimate the amount of pressure that is put on those agencies who issue warnings. It is tremendous and is not about protecting the public, it is about protecting the economy. Look at any of the previous instances of such virus infections. For example, with the Swine Flu pandemic of 2009-10, the WHO declared it a level 3, that is a 'public health emergency of international concern', on April 25. On April 27, they upgraded it to a level 4. On April 29, they upgraded it to a level 5 which indicates a pandemic is 'imminent'. But then nothing till June 11 when they finally declared it a pandemic, level 6. 

Take a look here at the WHO levels and decide for yourself what level it is now at. https://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/phase/en/ 

Keep in mind, there has now been person to person transmission reported outside of China.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/09/fourth-person-in-uk-tests-positive-for-coronavirus


----------



## Longtimeago

Meanwhile the Canadians on board the Diamond Princess in Japan are going to be flown back to Canada. They will then be kept in quarantine for another 14 days when they get here. 

Now some of them are complaining that their 14 days was almost up and they shouldn't have to be quarantined for another 14 days. Are these people really this stupid or do they just not care that they might infect someone else if they are just 'let loose' on arrival in Canada? One couple were complaining that they don't want to return to Canada, they want to continue on with their vacation plans which would see them going next to Spain.

It's all so 'inconvenient' for them and really it shouldn't be allowed to happen.


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> How about vacation plans west of the USA?


Possibly, depends where ...



Longtimeago said:


> This couple could as easily have been staying in any hotel, anywhere in the world. Maybe the one you wouldn't give a second thought to.
> 
> https://www.seattletimes.com/nation...-a-tourist-couple-falls-ill-with-coronavirus/


Not sure what your point is here? I can guess it's to backup an alarmist stance but better you expand on it so I fully understand.

Also, did this couple spark an out break of the virus? How many in their hotel are now sick?


----------



## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> Possibly, depends where ...
> 
> 
> Not sure what your point is here? I can guess it's to backup an alarmist stance but better you expand on it so I fully understand.
> 
> Also, did this couple spark an out break of the virus? How many in their hotel are now sick?


Cainvest, the couple may have sparked an outbreak, that isn't known yet. The one guy who flew from a business meeting in Singapore to France has now resulted in ELEVEN cases in France, the UK and Majorca, Spain. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/09/fourth-person-in-uk-tests-positive-for-coronavirus

You seem to want to say that if one such incident happens that's no reason to think it will happen again somewhere else. Really? Each time one person is infected and that person travels to somewhere else, the risk of infection spreading exists obviously. 

I really don't care to a degree (I don't wish anyone to get sick), if someone chooses to risk getting an infection. But I DO care if they then show up here and transmit it to me. WHERE in assessing the risks to YOU, do you place the risk to MY health? The guy who has now infected 11 people has infected ELEVEN people who are now at risk of DYING. If you are only risking something happening to you, that's your choice but when you increase the risk to ME, that should not be your choice to make. 

How many people who are travelling do you think self-quarantine when they return home before venturing into say a supermarket, because they MIGHT have the virus and do not want to risk passing it on to others? The risk taken is not just a risk to that individual.

Maybe that will help you understand the point. The point is that travel increases the risk for EVERYONE, not just the individual who travels.


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> You seem to want to say that if one such incident happens that's no reason to think it will happen again somewhere else. Really?


Not at all what I'm saying, the risks do increase with more people traveling. 

What I am saying is the chances you'll get this virus travelling to many places (not all) in the world is sooooooooooo small it is barely worth considering.



Longtimeago said:


> I really don't care to a degree (I don't wish anyone to get sick), if someone chooses to risk getting an infection. But I DO care if they then show up here and transmit it to me. WHERE in assessing the risks to YOU, do you place the risk to MY health? The guy who has now infected 11 people has infected ELEVEN people who are now at risk of DYING. If you are only risking something happening to you, that's your choice but when you increase the risk to ME, that should not be your choice to make.
> 
> How many people who are travelling do you think self-quarantine when they return home before venturing into say a supermarket, because they MIGHT have the virus and do not want to risk passing it on to others? The risk taken is not just a risk to that individual.
> 
> Maybe that will help you understand the point. The point is that travel increases the risk for EVERYONE, not just the individual who travels.


I do understand that travelling increases the corona virus risks but by how much is the question? Everytime someone in Canada gets the flu and goes out in public it increases your risk as well right? Don't forget, people do DIE from the flu here! 

Let's do a simple comparison for perspective ... 
Deaths in Canada from the flu in 2018 - let's underestimate and say 1,000 (health canada estimate is 3,500 for 2018)
Deaths outside of China for the corona virus - 2 (WHO sitrep Feb 15th)

So, 1000 vs 2 .... do you really think travelling to a very low or non-infected corona virus area for vacation is a bad idea?


----------



## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> Not at all what I'm saying, the risks do increase with more people traveling.
> 
> What I am saying is the chances you'll get this virus travelling to many places (not all) in the world is sooooooooooo small it is barely worth considering.
> 
> 
> 
> I do understand that travelling increases the corona virus risks but by how much is the question? Everytime someone in Canada gets the flu and goes out in public it increases your risk as well right? Don't forget, people do DIE from the flu here!
> 
> Let's do a simple comparison for perspective ...
> Deaths in Canada from the flu in 2018 - let's underestimate and say 1,000 (health canada estimate is 3,500 for 2018)
> Deaths outside of China for the corona virus - 2 (WHO sitrep Feb 15th)
> 
> So, 1000 vs 2 .... do you really think travelling to a very low or non-infected corona virus area for vacation is a bad idea?


Are you really that simple minded or do you think I am? Is this an indication of how you do your risk assessment that you say you are capable of doing for yourself?

First of all, there are no reliable figures to tell us how many people get the flu each year. There are no reliable figures to tell us how many die of it either. 

Second, even if there were, you would have to wait till COVID-19 has ended before comparing mortality rates. You can't just pick 2 numbers out of the air to compare which is what you have done. That isn't a 'risk assessment', that is simply guessing about something in the way you want it to come out. 

Try reading this fairly in depth article: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/flu-deaths-reality-check-1.1127442 In that article you will find the following: "_Getting back to the question of how deadly influenza really is, fate did offer up a chance to check the model predictions when the flu pandemic hit in 2009, and the world faced a new influenza threat called H1N1.

Back then a flu expert told me that the pandemic would be a rare opportunity to check the true death toll from flu, because, for the first time, there was widespread lab testing, a national reporting system, and all eyes were on potential flu-related deaths. _"

(H1N1) pdm09 was a novel virus that emerged in 2009 as COVID-19 has now. "_ From April 12, 2009 to April 10, 2010, CDC estimated there were 60.8 million cases (range: 43.3-89.3 million), 274,304 hospitalizations (range: 195,086-402,719), and 12,469 deaths (range: 8868-18,306) in the United States due to the (H1N1)pdm09 virus._" Globally it was estimated to have infected 20% of all people and resulted in 150-575k deaths. Poor reporting in many countries accounts for the spread but the USA numbers are fairly reliable.

So rather than guessing at numbers of how many people die from the flu each year, try using the most reliable numbers we have. 60 million cases in the USA and 12,469 deaths. You do not look at mortality rates without also looking at infection rates and then calculating the % of deaths. At 60m cases and 12.5k deaths you have an infection rate of 20% and a mortality rate of .05% 

No one yet knows what the infection rate of this new virus COVID-19 is, nor the mortality rate. But in your infinite wisdom, you want to guess at what they are. That isn't a 'risk assessment'.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/2009-h1n1-pandemic.html It was fortunate that the (H1N1)pdm09 virus(Swine Flu) only had a mortality rate of .05%. SARS had a mortality rate of 10% but a far lower infection rate. There were only 8k cases of SARS reported world wide in 2003 and it only lasted 6 months. What if it had the same kind of infection rate that Swine Flu did and that 10% mortality rate? That could have been 20% of population infected and 10% mortality. If Canada were to equal those averages, that would mean 7.5M cases in Canada and 750k deaths. That guess is as valid as your guess, they're both just a guess.

We do not yet know how COVID-19 will play out. Now you can take a super optimistic guess if you wish or you can take a more cautious wait and see approach. That's entirely up to you, but do not try to suggest there is a 'simple comparison' you can make and call it a 'risk assessment'.


----------



## Longtimeago

Now an American woman who was on the Westerdam cruise ship has tested positive for the virus. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/16/world/asia/coronavirus-cruise-americans.html

Meanwhile all the other 1454 passengers have gone on their way, including 271 Canadians. Now where are those 271 Canadians today? In your supermarket or planning to go to work tomorrow as per normal? The Canadian health officials are now asking them to self-quarantine for 14 days. How many do you think will do so? 
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...officials-urge-them-to-self-isolate-1.5466131

How many of the total 1454 passengers off that ship who have all gone on their way do you think will self-quarantine? I bet the WHO officials are tearing their hair out that this has happened.


----------



## sags

The number of infected on the cruise ship in Japan is steadily increasing. It appears that even a lock down quarantine isn't working.


----------



## Video_Frank

We're going to Italy and Switzerland for two weeks in August. I'm not sure what the odds are of getting coronavirus but the odds of me dying in the next 40 years regardless is about 100%.


----------



## sags

Video_Frank said:


> We're going to Italy and Switzerland for two weeks in August. I'm not sure what the odds are of getting coronavirus but the odds of me dying in the next 40 years regardless is about 100%.


But.......you might get caught in a quarantine and have to listen to mind numbing yodeling all day every day for weeks. :subdued:


----------



## cainvest

ok, so you say there is no reliable flu numbers then say "I'll use the most reliable numbers we have". So the US can track virus data but the rest of the world (Canada, WHO, etc) can't? Really? How good are the most reliable numbers, off by 20%, 500%? You can choose to ignore estimates and data, an alarmist's point of view BTW, and just decide by your fear you have about dying from the virus, that's up to you.

You can read the sitrep reports from WHO (I gather you don't trust their data either?) to see the current estimate of corona virus cases and deaths. I would definitely be concerned about travelling to areas if the numbers where steadily climbing. Both Singapore and Japan are showing a bit of an increase but the rest of the world is not.

At the end of the day WHO is NOT showing any significant number of new cases (almost all areas show ZERO) outside of China.

With regards to ...


Longtimeago said:


> Are you really that simple minded or do you think I am? Is this an indication of how you do your risk assessment that you say you are capable of doing for yourself?


No, not sure and yes, my assesment is based on estimates and available data. 
And your assessment is solely based off of "a new virus is in the world" I'll be prudent and just stay in my home until it goes away correct?


----------



## james4beach

Video_Frank said:


> We're going to Italy and Switzerland for two weeks in August. I'm not sure what the odds are of getting coronavirus but the odds of me dying in the next 40 years regardless is about 100%.


Though the situation can change, currently I think the biggest risks you face are:

1. any travel segment by car (car accident)
2. standard flu and its complications


----------



## Plugging Along

Longtimeago said:


> Are you really that simple minded or do you think I am? Is this an indication of how you do your risk assessment that you say you are capable of doing for yourself?
> 
> First of all, there are no reliable figures to tell us how many people get the flu each year. There are no reliable figures to tell us how many die of it either.
> 
> Second, even if there were, you would have to wait till COVID-19 has ended before comparing mortality rates. You can't just pick 2 numbers out of the air to compare which is what you have done. That isn't a 'risk assessment', that is simply guessing about something in the way you want it to come out.
> 
> Try reading this fairly in depth article: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/flu-deaths-reality-check-1.1127442 In that article you will find the following: "_Getting back to the question of how deadly influenza really is, fate did offer up a chance to check the model predictions when the flu pandemic hit in 2009, and the world faced a new influenza threat called H1N1.
> 
> Back then a flu expert told me that the pandemic would be a rare opportunity to check the true death toll from flu, because, for the first time, there was widespread lab testing, a national reporting system, and all eyes were on potential flu-related deaths. _"
> 
> (H1N1) pdm09 was a novel virus that emerged in 2009 as COVID-19 has now. "_ From April 12, 2009 to April 10, 2010, CDC estimated there were 60.8 million cases (range: 43.3-89.3 million), 274,304 hospitalizations (range: 195,086-402,719), and 12,469 deaths (range: 8868-18,306) in the United States due to the (H1N1)pdm09 virus._" Globally it was estimated to have infected 20% of all people and resulted in 150-575k deaths. Poor reporting in many countries accounts for the spread but the USA numbers are fairly reliable.
> 
> So rather than guessing at numbers of how many people die from the flu each year, try using the most reliable numbers we have. 60 million cases in the USA and 12,469 deaths. You do not look at mortality rates without also looking at infection rates and then calculating the % of deaths. At 60m cases and 12.5k deaths you have an infection rate of 20% and a mortality rate of .05%
> 
> No one yet knows what the infection rate of this new virus COVID-19 is, nor the mortality rate. But in your infinite wisdom, you want to guess at what they are. That isn't a 'risk assessment'.
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/2009-h1n1-pandemic.html It was fortunate that the (H1N1)pdm09 virus(Swine Flu) only had a mortality rate of .05%. SARS had a mortality rate of 10% but a far lower infection rate. There were only 8k cases of SARS reported world wide in 2003 and it only lasted 6 months. What if it had the same kind of infection rate that Swine Flu did and that 10% mortality rate? That could have been 20% of population infected and 10% mortality. If Canada were to equal those averages, that would mean 7.5M cases in Canada and 750k deaths. That guess is as valid as your guess, they're both just a guess.
> 
> We do not yet know how COVID-19 will play out. Now you can take a super optimistic guess if you wish or you can take a more cautious wait and see approach. That's entirely up to you, but do not try to suggest there is a 'simple comparison' you can make and call it a 'risk assessment'.


Speaking with an old colleague late last week. We were we talking about travel plans for the year. Her son has been on tour through asia for the last month and isn't slated to be out of Asia for another few weeks. The precautions they took were they did avoid all the hotspots in China, but they were just leaving Singapore. I mentioned that my in laws were on a cruise and were diverted. Again, she didn't think there was too much of an issue as they have the ability to dock else where (which they will) if it becomes worse. They are also deciding if they will go to Singapore at the end of March. 

She wasn't too concerned, even though I looked concerned. She told me her spouse retired from the medical field a few years ago. He worked with infectious diseases, did work on during the Ebola, SARs, H1N1, MERS, and a couple of other things I had never heard of. He been called to see if he is available to consult for this work too. Essentially, he has been saying that though is this is more contagious than some of the strains, it has been really well contained. The mortality rate is higher than the flu but lower than all of the other diseases he has worked on. It is spreading faster than some other flus, but it is not as dire as the news make out to be.

They are taking the wait an see. They aren't cancelling their trip, but they aren't to go to the hotspots. As for the their daughter, they feel it's safe even in Asia, as long as they stay out of China. They did say won't fly out of anywhere in China, but other Asian countries are fine - for now. They suggested that if we were waiting to book, there's nothing wrong with that, just get good travel insurance and wait.

I asked them about the risk of catching in the airports/cruiseships. They said if you are avoided the hotspots, then right now, there are higher risks with many other things with higher impacts. They also told me to check WHO and CDC. I think before I book anything, I may give her a call. 

Lots of things could happen, but unless there is a ban on travel and all people are forced into quarantine after any travel, it may spread more.


----------



## Longtimeago

This morning I watched some Canadians on the Diamond Princess speaking via Skype I guess. One couple were complaining that the flight coming to get them is going to be a date later than they were told they could get off the ship. Another couple were complaining about having to go into another 2 week quarantine after the flight back to Canada. Another couple were complaining that the husband who has just tested positive was going to have to go into a hospital in Japan while the wife who has tested negative will be getting on the flight back to Canada, they thought he should be flown back to Canada like the positive cases the USA flew back on their flights. Each and every one of them were talking about themselves and not one was concerned about the possibility of their bringing the virus back to Canada and infecting others. 

Of course it is normal selfish human behaviour to be concerned with ourselves first but surely we should also give some thought to others as well.

There are still 150 Canadians on the ship who have not indicated whether they want to get on the flight back to Canada. Some are concerned about leaving their quarantined cabin and getting on the plane with others who may be infected. I can understand that. Some however, are saying that they are due to get off the ship anyway under the original 2 week shipboard quarantine and expect they can then just continue on with making their own travel plans from there! 

They clearly are giving no thought to the possibility they could test positive the day after they get off the ship and meanwhile have come in contact with other people. All they care about is the 'inconvenience' to themselves.

Plugging Along, 'wait and see' is as I have been saying here, the only sensible answer at this time. If someone is in the middle of a trip, then they have to just avoid what they can as your colleague's son is doing.


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## sags

The 14 day quarantine period is supposed to re-start every time there is a new infected person.

It doesn't sound like that is the practice on the cruise ship which is concerning, there are apparently a continuing number of infections despite the quarantine.

The director a big hospital in Wuhan has died of the virus. He was a neurosurgeon and one would presume was taking all preventive measures.

People might rest easier if China let the American teams in to investigate. The information seems to be slowly leaking out of China.

Disruption to the global supply chain is a big concern for the Americans. The production of many medical supplies are in China. The US is currently performing an in-depth inventory of all their supplies.


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## Longtimeago

Passengers on the Diamond Princess are now being allowed to just leave the ship. They are simply being 'screened' for a high temperature (not 'tested') as they disembark. Off the ship, on a bus, in a taxi and away.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/passe...rincess-after-virus-quarantine-ends-1.4818047

There is a 'lag' between being tested and getting the results, of about a day. Someone who tested negative yesterday, if tested again today could turn out positive. There is no way to know if a passenger disembarking today without a high temperature, would test positive tomorrow. Yet they are just being allowed to go on their way. That's just senseless.

Canada has not said what they will do regarding anyone who chooses to not take the chartered flight back to Canada and go into another 2 week quarantine period on arrival. The USA and some other countries have said that they will not allow their citizens to return to their home country for 'at least two weeks'. Who knows, maybe some of them will be travelling to a neighbourhood near you.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/18/asia/japan-health-guidelines-coronavirus-hnk-intl/index.html


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## cainvest

And the currently reported death rate (outside of China) jumped up 50% this week.


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## Longtimeago

Looks like the first group quarantined in Trenton are still all in the clear and on track to be released tomorrow and the second group on the 25th.

It appears our quarantine system was far more effective than that used on the Diamond Princess.


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## sags

An inspector on the Diamond Princess said there were no quarantine protocols, and the place was an incubator for the virus.

Ship staff lived together in cramped quarters and were provided no protection. They delivered the food and messages room to room.

He noted passengers milling about together. He also said the passengers should not be allowed to disembark, but Japan released them anyways.

The US immediately instituted a new protocol for Americans leaving the ship and returning to the US. 

They must undergo an extensive medical examination including throat swabs, 2 diagnostic swabs and can show no symptoms.

Only then will the be removed to the US where they will spend another 14 days in quarantine.

It sounds like the US is not at all confident China, Japan and other countries are performing best practices.

I hope Canada is following the US lead on repatriating Canadians.


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## Longtimeago

What I don't understand is why the media is not commenting on those passengers who are just being allowed to leave the ship and go on their way independently. A test done yesterday that shows negative does not mean anything in regards to someone's condition today.

Two of the Australian's who were flown back to Australia have now tested positive. When they got off the ship and were transported to the flight back to Australia, they had been previously tested as negative and showed no symptoms when they got on the plane. 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...from-diamond-princess-test-positive-in-darwin

There are people who have disembarked and simply got in a taxi and drove away. Who knows where some of these people are now and if they have been infected or not. No one knows and no one seems to care. The media just keeps saying people tested negative and show no symptoms as if that means something. It means nothing as the two Australian cases show.
https://nationalpost.com/news/world...going-risk-of-spreading-coronavirus-officials

A new case in BC reported yesterday is a woman who apparently got infected in Iran. 
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/b-c-s-new-coronavirus-case-is-woman-who-recently-returned-from-iran-1.4821112


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## sags

I had the unfortunate experience of attending the local hospital emergency department a few days ago.

Our son needed emergency care after fainting and banging his head on the concrete. 

After a few hours he only got some of the treatment and diagnostics that he needed, because they were overflowing with patients. There were no chairs left to sit in the ER.

A CT scan for a major head injury was scheduled for a year from now.......a freaking year from now. Otherwise he was sent home to hope for the best.

Good luck dealing with an outbreak of the coronavirus with "hoping for the best". We need to keep the virus far away from our shores because we couldn't handle an outbreak.


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## james4beach

sags said:


> Our son needed emergency care after fainting and banging his head on the concrete.
> 
> After a few hours he only got some of the treatment and diagnostics that he needed, because they were overflowing with patients. There were no chairs left to sit in the ER.


Sorry to hear that, just terrible.



> Good luck dealing with an outbreak of the coronavirus with "hoping for the best". We need to keep the virus far away from our shores because we couldn't handle an outbreak.


Agreed.


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## cainvest

Currently reported death rate (non-China) is up 800% this week


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## sags

The spread to Iran is concerning, according to scientists. The virus appears to be finding ways out despite all the quarantines.

My question is how does a microscopic virus with no brain figure out how to spread, mutate and make it difficult to cure ?

Answer to my own question.......

_*“Viruses are very intelligent. They can think*. They do things that we do not expect. They adapt to the environment. They change themselves in order to survive,” said Lai, professor of molecular microbiology and immunology and a Howard Hughes Medical Institute Investigator._

_That’s part of what got Lai interested in studying the coronavirus, which is made up of 31,000 nucleotides and has the longest known viral RNA genome. “Conventional wisdom would say that having such a large RNA genome wouldn’t work, that the virus would become defective. *But coronavirus seems to have broken all the rules*,” he said.

Lai’s studies of coronavirus have revealed the details of how the virus enters target cells and how it turns on RNA synthesis in the host cell. Coronaviruses cause respiratory illnesses in humans and animals and may cause neurological symptoms similar to those of multiple sclerosis._

https://news.usc.edu/9791/researcher-teases-out-secrets-from-surprisingly-intelligent-viruses/


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## Longtimeago

An Iranian man who had been in China, brought it back to Iran. He has since died. Iran had stopped all direct flights from China but this man returned using an 'indirect' route to get around that. 

This is what people do, they think only of themselves and what will inconvenience them. Every person who is travelling right now is putting other people at risk. It is travellers who are spreading the virus, it isn't spreading by itself. 

If I visit Switzerland on a hiking vacation, the hotel where I stay probably has people there from a dozen countries who I will come into contact with. Any one of them could infect all the others who then travel on elsewhere or return home. That's what happened in France with the guy who brought the virus in to a resort and infected 11 other people.

People who have been in close contact are even being allowed to travel. Japan has just admitted that 23 passengers from the Diamond Princess who had been tested BEFORE the ship quarantine began but not tested again before they disembarked. Three have since tested negative, MOST have AGREED to be tested again and all have been ASKED to self-quarantine at home. That's most, not all have agreed and that's asked not made to self-quarantine. 

If someone is quite willing to take an indirect route to get to where they want to go like the guy from Iran, what would make anyone think that 'asking' people to self-quarantine will not be ignored just as easily and probably? People put themselves first and disregard the risk to bring to others.

Everyone travelling right now is putting other people at risk however small that risk might be. It is in fact saying, 'you don't matter to me, I'm doing what I want to do.'

WHO rates the risk globally as High. They are saying the window of opportunity to contain this is narrowing. The risk of a pandemic is increasing. But it is not WHO that can tell people not to travel, that is up to governments. But they are ALWAYS playing 'catch up' because they look at the political and economic consequences of putting out a 'avoid unnecessary travel' advisory or an outright, 'do not travel' advisory. 

People who don't self-impose a 'I'm not gonna travel till WHO says this is contained' policy, use government travel advisories as an excuse to do what they want to do without regard to the risk to other people they are contributing to increasing.

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-pers...-19-cases-double-iran-linked-infections-climb

It's becoming more and more likely each day that it is going to get away from containment. If that happens, people who keep saying, 'oh the 'normal' flu kills more every year' are going to find out why comparing a .1% mortality rate to a 2% mortality rate without also looking at the infection rate is stupidity. If this virus gets loose and has the same infection rate as the 'normal' flu, it will kill 20 TIMES as many people.


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## sags

People are infected in Italy and other countries who had no connection to China. They don't know how they were infected.

Scientists are also saying the incubation period appears to be longer than 14 days. They aren't sure how long it is but some people are infected without symptoms.

The head of the US infectious diseases is warning of being on the cusp of a pandemic. It seems the experts believe it is only a matter of time.

Personally, I think anyone who travels outside of North America should be subject to mandatory quarantine for 30 days. 

They have the right to take the chance, but not the right to infect others. We have to stop the virus before it comes in.


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## james4beach

It's too late sags. Any kind of reporting has a time lag; Canadians have already been exposed to the virus and there are likely more cases than we know. Hopefully not too much more.

CBC is running a story right now, that one passenger on a Montreal - Vancouver flight last week tested positive for COVID-19
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...-day-tests-positive-for-coronavirus-1.5473283

So that's 100 or 200 other domestic passengers that were exposed. Hopefully nobody caught it.


----------



## Longtimeago

Italy has been unable so far to identify 'patient zero'. Starting with 16 confirmed cases in Lombardy on 21 February, an additional 60 cases on 22 February, and Italy's first deaths reported on the same days. As of 24 February 2020, there have been 229 confirmed coronavirus cases and 7 deaths in Italy. Italy currently has the third highest infection count per country in the world. 

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...r-controls-over-coronavirus-outbreak-11941438

Meanwhile, if you check the Government of Canada travel advisory page what do you find? Does it suggest 'avoid all non-essential travel' to northern Italy, Milan, Venice, etc.? Nope, it suggests you 'exercise normal security precautions'. https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/advisories The government advisories are a joke. 

Does anyone here think this is a good time to visit Milan or Venice? The last 2 days of Carnival in Venice have been cancelled now. How many Canadians might be there and will now fly home? How many have a flight to Milan booked in the next couple of weeks and will choose to take those flights? 

The scary thing about the outbreak in Italy is the rate of contagion. So far, that has remained an unknown. They know how it spreads but have not yet got a handle on how contagious it is. The numbers in Italy over just a few days seems to indicate a high rate of contagion.


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## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> Meanwhile, if you check the Government of Canada travel advisory page what do you find? Does it suggest 'avoid all non-essential travel' to northern Italy, Milan, Venice, etc.? Nope, it suggests you 'exercise normal security precautions'. https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/advisories The government advisories are a joke.


Two points to consider, 
- There is lag time updating the travel advisories
- They are not written for alarmists


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## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> Two points to consider,
> - There is lag time updating the travel advisories
> - They are not written for alarmists


Give the 'alarmist' a rest cainvest. Would you want to travel to Milan or Venice TODAY? Yes or no? Would you advise someone else to do so? 

You seem to think everyone has to be classed either as an optimist or a pessimist. There is also a realist. Not only would it be stupid to travel to Milan today, it would also be irresponsible in that IF you caught the virus, you would bring it back with you and put everyone else at risk around you. There might then be an outbreak of 200+ in your town because just like in Italy, ONE person brought it in. But you don't CARE if that might happen, is that what you want me to believe?


----------



## cainvest

I'm not the one concerned it'll show up in my local supermarket or even getting it travelling to very low or non-infected areas. 

I also know how to read the "last updated" date on Canadian travel advisories, like ...
Italy Exercise normal security precautions *2020-02-19* 14:02:38
And, of course, that's not the only source one can use to determine if to travel or not.


----------



## sags

An infected person showed up at the Toronto airport.

A woman flew to Wuhan, China in January and returned on a flight on Friday. She was infected with the virus, but no matter.......she is 20 years old and doing fine.

But, she was on a plane load of passengers, some of whom are much older than 20 and won't do as well if they are infected. She was also in contact with the airline crew (who were in contact with other passengers), and of course people in the airport, including border agents who are in contact with many people. Not to worry though......probably nobody else was infected......maybe. The local health authorities have some tracking down to do before all the people she was in contact with are in contact with others.

I thought there was a quarantine in Wuhan. How did the woman get out of China ? What where her airline connections ?

Canada seems intent on playing a game of chicken with the virus. I don't think the public is being told the whole story either.

Edit.....just look at all those flights. I doubt the virus will be contained for much longer.

https://flightaware.com/live/


----------



## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> I'm not the one concerned it'll show up in my local supermarket or even getting it travelling to very low or non-infected areas.
> 
> I also know how to read the "last updated" date on Canadian travel advisories, like ...
> Italy Exercise normal security precautions *2020-02-19* 14:02:38
> And, of course, that's not the only source one can use to determine if to travel or not.


Yes keep reading the government travel advisories cainvest, never mind that you will always be behind the curve doing so. The government travel advisories still haven't told you to avoid travel to northern Italy. Their count is 220 today.

Go ahead and travel to 'very low or non-infected areas' cainvest. Just as the people in a Tenerife hotel did. Now there are around 1000 of them quarantined in a hotel enjoying what one Brit calls her 'vacation from hell'.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ronavirus-as-case-confirmed-in-adeje-11942764
That was a non-infected area the day before yesterday cainvest but there are no 'very low' risk areas. The risk is High Globally.

Since SARS in 2003, air travel has increased TENFOLD cainvest. Containing this virus without acknowledging that fact and telling people to avoid travel has little chance of happening. The virus has now been found in 36 countries. It was only around 25 countries a week or so ago. Does that sound like it is being contained to you?

Canada's public health advice now for ALL returning Canadians who have travelled internationally is to 'monitor yourself on your return for 2 weeks'. That will do a lot of good if someone brings it home and takes it to the office on Monday morning. The more people who travel, the more risk that exists EVERYWHERE. But no government is going to say, 'stop travelling'.


----------



## Longtimeago

sags said:


> An infected person showed up at the Toronto airport.
> 
> A woman flew to Wuhan, China in January and returned on a flight on Friday. She was infected with the virus, but no matter.......she is 20 years old and doing fine.
> 
> But, she was on a plane load of passengers, some of whom are much older than 20 and won't do as well if they are infected. She was also in contact with the airline crew (who were in contact with other passengers), and of course people in the airport, including border agents who are in contact with many people. Not to worry though......probably nobody else was infected......maybe. The local health authorities have some tracking down to do before all the people she was in contact with are in contact with others.
> 
> I thought there was a quarantine in Wuhan. How did the woman get out of China ? What where her airline connections ?
> 
> Canada seems intent on playing a game of chicken with the virus. I don't think the public is being told the whole story either.
> 
> Edit.....just look at all those flights. I doubt the virus will be contained for much longer.
> 
> https://flightaware.com/live/




She had been away for a while sags and visited multiple places. She didn't return to Canada directly from China. It is not impossible for someone to leave China and end up anywhere. It is only some direct flights that can't be made. 

In this case, the young woman did act responsibly and declared herself on arrival in Toronto. 
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2020/02/23/new-presumptive-case-of-coronavirus-diagnosed-in-toronto/

What gets me is she was just told to phone public health and when she did, they just told her to go to the hospital Emergency Department, thus exposing even more people. She is now 'self-quarantined'. 

What it does show is how easily someone could turn up tomorrow and spread the virus. You can't stop that possibility as long as people continue to travel.


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> Yes keep reading the government travel advisories cainvest, never mind that you will always be behind the curve doing so. The government travel advisories still haven't told you to avoid travel to northern Italy. Their count is 220 today.
> 
> 
> 
> cainvest said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not the one concerned it'll show up in my local supermarket or even getting it travelling to very low or non-infected areas.
> 
> I also know how to read the "last updated" date on Canadian travel advisories, like ...
> Italy Exercise normal security precautions 2020-02-19 14:02:38
> *And, of course, that's not the only source one can use to determine if to travel or not.*
Click to expand...

Can you only read text in Bold? Maybe this will help. 



Longtimeago said:


> Go ahead and travel to 'very low or non-infected areas' cainvest. Just as the people in a Tenerife hotel did. Now there are around 1000 of them quarantined in a hotel enjoying what one Brit calls her 'vacation from hell'.
> https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ronavirus-as-case-confirmed-in-adeje-11942764
> That was a non-infected area the day before yesterday cainvest but there are no 'very low' risk areas. The risk is High Globally.
> 
> Since SARS in 2003, air travel has increased TENFOLD cainvest. Containing this virus without acknowledging that fact and telling people to avoid travel has little chance of happening. The virus has now been found in 36 countries. It was only around 25 countries a week or so ago. Does that sound like it is being contained to you?
> 
> Canada's public health advice now for ALL returning Canadians who have travelled internationally is to 'monitor yourself on your return for 2 weeks'. That will do a lot of good if someone brings it home and takes it to the office on Monday morning. The more people who travel, the more risk that exists EVERYWHERE. But no government is going to say, 'stop travelling'.


There are always risks with travelling, some areas should no doubt be avoided. Many thousands are enjoying their winter vacations and returning safe and sound. Some will no doubt choose to stay home and that's fine.

Of course you want to label all that travel right now as irresponsible with the fact they may come back to Canada and infect you. Maybe make a sign "How dare you!" and walk (in hazmat gear) outside your closest airport's international terminal to get your view point out?


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## Longtimeago

Cainvest, if you want to stick your head in the sand that's your choice. Italy went from 220 yesterday to 320 today. Four more countries have just announced their first cases. It si not being contained. At this point, I believe the cat is out of the bag and people like you as well as those responsible for our safety and keeping us informed, are not doing a good enough job.

We need more transparency and I'm going to start a new thread on that subject.


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## Money172375

How will airlines and resorts deal with border closings and/or requests to cancel? Will travel insurance kick in (if purchased) or will the airlines and hotels do the right thing?

What would happen if a travel advisory was instituted to a country after you’ve made the purchase? And does travel insurance allow you to cancel for any reason? How will they view worried travellers who decide to stay home?


----------



## nobleea

nobleea said:


> My inlaws have a south american cruise booked next month I think.


They actually missed their flight down to Buenos Aires due to one of them having bad case of stomach flu. So they missed the cruise. Luckily this was the only time they ever sprung for the cancellation insurance. With a local doctors note, looks like they'll be able to collect on it.


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## Longtimeago

Money172375 said:


> How will airlines and resorts deal with border closings and/or requests to cancel? Will travel insurance kick in (if purchased) or will the airlines and hotels do the right thing?
> 
> What would happen if a travel advisory was instituted to a country after you’ve made the purchase? And does travel insurance allow you to cancel for any reason? How will they view worried travellers who decide to stay home?


The answers to those questions will vary depending on the details of your reservations and insurance Money172375. If or example someone has booked a 'no-cancellation, no refund' basic airline ticket and have no travel insurance and no actual 'do not travel' advisory for a given country has been declared (say Italy at present and you had a flight booked to Milan in the affected area right now) tough luck.

There are too many variables to try and give general answers that make any sense. What does make sense is to not make any travel plans right now for this year. Then you will not have to concern yourself with any of the questions you are asking about.


----------



## Money172375

Longtimeago said:


> The answers to those questions will vary depending on the details of your reservations and insurance Money172375. If or example someone has booked a 'no-cancellation, no refund' basic airline ticket and have no travel insurance and no actual 'do not travel' advisory for a given country has been declared (say Italy at present and you had a flight booked to Milan in the affected area right now) tough luck.
> 
> There are too many variables to try and give general answers that make any sense. What does make sense is to not make any travel plans right now for this year. Then you will not have to concern yourself with any of the questions you are asking about.


Thanks. We’re already booked for 2 getaways in the next 3 months. March break to Florida and a week in the Caribbean in May.


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## Longtimeago

Money172375 said:


> Thanks. We’re already booked for 2 getaways in the next 3 months. March break to Florida and a week in the Caribbean in May.


Personally, I would no longer be planning to take those trips. While the PROBABILITY may be low the consequences can be HIGH. For example, consider the hotel in Tenerife where all the guests are now quarantined. No one there went on their vacation thinking, 'oh, we might run into Covid-19, but they did.
https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/...e-being-quarantined-due-to-cases-of-covid-19/

This is not unlike the Diamond Princess cruise ship where the virus spread throughout the passengers. A large number of people confined in a small space. And it isn't just the possibility of getting the virus, it is the other affects as well. Those returning to Canada from the cruise ship have all been quarantined for another 2 weeks on arrival in Canada. What about everything in the normal lives at the same time? 

This can happen anywhere, it does not have to be an area where the virus is already known to be present.


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## Longtimeago

Your situation Money172375, is typical of many that I was trying to get at when I wrote the OP of this thread. 

Rather than deciding 'should we travel', you now have to take the possible loss of money into your decision making and that in many cases will influence people to do something they might otherwise decided not to do.

My wife was actually at her hairdresser's today and heard another woman saying that they were booked to fly to Milan and visit Venice. No one in their right mind should be flying to Milan or visiting Venice right now. But this woman was saying she had called earlier in the morning to ask what would happen if they decided they didn't want to go.

Answer, there is no travel advisory against flying to Italy, so no airline or insurance refund. Clearly, on the one hand the woman did not want to go given the circumstances and clearly she was agonizing over the money.


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## m3s

Plugging Along said:


> My in laws booked a last minute cruise trip in beginning of January that left this week to from Australia ended in Hong Kong. We tried to get them to cancel, the cruise has diverted the last port to Singapore, and we just hope they are okay. I sent them with some mask, hand sanitizer and alcohol wipes and extra things for the cabin in case there are stuck in quarantine. We didn't want them to go, but they didn't want to lose the money and felt it was be fine. Hopefully all works out. We drove them to the airport, but have told them, that will we not see them for 15 days after then get home.


How did this story pan out?

Get us the hell off: Nearly 250 Canadians aboard ship with passengers, crew exhibiting flu-like symptoms


----------



## Longtimeago

m3s said:


> How did this story pan out?
> 
> Get us the hell off: Nearly 250 Canadians aboard ship with passengers, crew exhibiting flu-like symptoms


It's interesting to look at this thread from the beginning again m3s. I started it a month ago(I don't like the way this new format does not show the actual start date, just says '1 month ago').

At that time the original discussion was 'to plan to travel or not'. So it encompassed ALL those who planned to travel for March Break for example. Cainvest for one was a big fan of using the government 'travel advisories' to guide your decisions. I was a fan of using common sense and considering the ramifications of the virus taking off everywhere.

The cruise you link to, left on March 7. The WHOLE Diamond Princess debacle played out by the end of FEBRUARY. At that point and the beginning of this thread, who in their right mind would then have got on a cruise ship? Answer, those who had bought and paid and could not cancel and get a refund of their money. So they 'self-justified' their decision to go anyway, often by quoting, 'well the government Travel Advisory doesn't say don't go.' In this specific case, the government did issue a 'no cruise ships' advisory 2 days after the ship left on the cruise.

Now the guy from Ottawa in your link is saying, 'get us the hell off this ship'. Do you see the sense of ENTILEMENT in that statement? As if they have a RIGHT to expect someone else (our government presumably) to correct THEIR stupid decision to get on in the first place. There is no way someone who watched the Diamond Princess debacle unfold in February could try to say getting on a cruise ship in March was a good decision.

As far as I am concerned, anyone who travelled anywhere, by any means, after February made their bed. Now they need to take responsibility for their own decision and live with it. They have no RIGHT to try and put it on others to deal with.


----------



## m3s

Longtimeago said:


> It's interesting to look at this thread from the beginning again m3s. I started it a month ago(I don't like the way this new format does not show the actual start date, just says '1 month ago').


Feb 11 (found the date if you hover over 1 month ago it will show)

The problem with government advisories is they always lag. If they make advisories for everything people will not take them seriously. That and the cruise industry has financial obligations etc

I agree the government should not have to bail people out of luxury travel


----------



## Plugging Along

m3s said:


> How did this story pan out?
> 
> Get us the hell off: Nearly 250 Canadians aboard ship with passengers, crew exhibiting flu-like symptoms



So good news, they have been back with relatively few problems. The final port was diverted well in advance so they had ample time to get flights back. They said that the cruise line did a very good job of putting extra precautions in like supervised handwashing, shields, etc. 

We had them Self isolate even though it wasn’t a requirement at the time and they just past their 14 day with no symptoms. Because they are older and at risk, I am still telling them to stay home and I will do their grocery shopping. 

I think how much things have changed when they made the decision to go has been staggering. It took them a while of understanding that they need to prepare to hanker down to this new norm. 

For the people that left in march, I just shake my head. There are still a lot of people still not getting it, or don’t believe how they are a part of the problem or solution. I have been busy on volunteer sites making sure that people u dear stand self isolate means go into your home and don’t come out not for groceries, a walk, medications, anything.


----------



## Longtimeago

One thing that I learned early on about travel is that when you are in another country, you are subject to the laws and prevailing conditions of that country. That means you cannot COUNT on anyone but yourself if you get into trouble. But I have witnessed first hand, people THINKING that their own government 'has their back'. The reality is that all too often, no one has your back and no one including the government has any POWER over what is done in another country.

You cannot yell, 'get us out of here' when you are in the back of a pickup truck in some third world African country being taken down a dirt road by some 'soldiers' in rags and with AK-47s in their hands, as I have been. You cannot say, 'well there was no travel advisory against travel in that country, so it's the government's job to solve MY problem.'

Take a simple example of how the real world works in terms of travel. Let's say you are in country X, all is well, no real issues of any kind. Then you go to an ATM and your card won't work. You can't get cash. Then you go to check in to a hotel and when they run your card they tell you, 'your card won't work. The provider will not accept the charge.' Happens quite often actually to travellers. Let's say you have no second card to use, you're stuck. You try phoning the free 800 number to talk to your card provider and they tell you, 'must be a glitch in the system, try again tomorrow, we'll try to get it straightened out for you'. 

What do you do then? Let's say you happen to be in a city where there is in fact a Canadian Embassy/Consulate, so you walk there and ask for help. You can't even get a bed for the night, you have no money even for a meal. What do you think the Canadian Embassy will do for you? What I can tell you they will NOT do is give you money.








Financial assistance - Travel.gc.ca


Government of Canada's official one-stop-shop for comprehensive international travel information.




travel.gc.ca





They will let you make a phone call to family or friends who you can ask to send you money, but the Embassy/Consulate will NOT give you money. You're on your OWN as far as finding a bed for the night unless they happen to be able to tell you where you can get a 'homeless person' bed for example in that country.

The bottom line is that every time someone travels they are responsible for themselves and ALL the consequences that brings with it. This BELIEF that our government is somehow responsible for us is sheer ignorance of the real world.


----------



## newfoundlander61

I normally go to NFLD each summer for 3-4 weeks but my guess this is off the table with COVID-19.


----------



## marina628

I am hoping to get to Newfoundland for my usual 2 months to visit with my parents and get some work done on the house ,our hope was to start the process to install solar but no idea if that will happen now.


----------



## marina628

Longtimeago said:


> One thing that I learned early on about travel is that when you are in another country, you are subject to the laws and prevailing conditions of that country. That means you cannot COUNT on anyone but yourself if you get into trouble. But I have witnessed first hand, people THINKING that their own government 'has their back'. The reality is that all too often, no one has your back and no one including the government has any POWER over what is done in another country.
> 
> You cannot yell, 'get us out of here' when you are in the back of a pickup truck in some third world African country being taken down a dirt road by some 'soldiers' in rags and with AK-47s in their hands, as I have been. You cannot say, 'well there was no travel advisory against travel in that country, so it's the government's job to solve MY problem.'
> 
> Take a simple example of how the real world works in terms of travel. Let's say you are in country X, all is well, no real issues of any kind. Then you go to an ATM and your card won't work. You can't get cash. Then you go to check in to a hotel and when they run your card they tell you, 'your card won't work. The provider will not accept the charge.' Happens quite often actually to travellers. Let's say you have no second card to use, you're stuck. You try phoning the free 800 number to talk to your card provider and they tell you, 'must be a glitch in the system, try again tomorrow, we'll try to get it straightened out for you'.
> 
> What do you do then? Let's say you happen to be in a city where there is in fact a Canadian Embassy/Consulate, so you walk there and ask for help. You can't even get a bed for the night, you have no money even for a meal. What do you think the Canadian Embassy will do for you? What I can tell you they will NOT do is give you money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Financial assistance - Travel.gc.ca
> 
> 
> Government of Canada's official one-stop-shop for comprehensive international travel information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> travel.gc.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They will let you make a phone call to family or friends who you can ask to send you money, but the Embassy/Consulate will NOT give you money. You're on your OWN as far as finding a bed for the night unless they happen to be able to tell you where you can get a 'homeless person' bed for example in that country.
> 
> The bottom line is that every time someone travels they are responsible for themselves and ALL the consequences that brings with it. This BELIEF that our government is somehow responsible for us is sheer ignorance of the real world.


When we travel we always carried extra $3000 -$4000 USD cash and never used it in cases like this and I always carry 3 months medication half on me and half in luggage.I am shocked how some travel and have no means to buy a plane ticket back home if a true emergency occurred.As for credit cards between us we have 5 different institutions would pray one will work lol


----------



## Longtimeago

marina628 said:


> When we travel we always carried extra $3000 -$4000 USD cash and never used it in cases like this and I always carry 3 months medication half on me and half in luggage.I am shocked how some travel and have no means to buy a plane ticket back home if a true emergency occurred.As for credit cards between us we have 5 different institutions would pray one will work lol


I never carry more than a few hundred dollars in cash marina628 and only in CAD. There are actually not that many places in the world where US cash gives anyone an advantage. We carry 6 credit cards and 3 debit cards from 3 different banks. I have never not been able to find a way to get money or pay for something UNLESS it was in a remote area of a third world country. Then yes, carrying a bit more cash may make sense.

The average traveller on the average vacation to the usual suspect places however has no need to go to those extremes.


----------



## marina628

We travel mainly in Caribbean and USA money they love there ,when we went to Europe for a Cruise we actually carried USA,GBP and Euros .I am not average nor is my spending habits


----------



## Longtimeago

marina628 said:


> We travel mainly in Caribbean and USA money they love there ,when we went to Europe for a Cruise we actually carried USA,GBP and Euros .I am not average nor is my spending habits


Anyone who goes on a cruise is average as are those who vacation in the Carribbean in my view marina628. US cash in some Caribbean islands is of course commonly used and in some cases is actually the national currency. But it is still cheaper to use cards after arrival than to buy cash before your departure.

We vacation in Europe once or twice pretty much every year and I usually buy the equivalent of around $100 CAD in either Euros or Swiss Francs depending on where we will be landing. It's just for a cab to a hotel or a snack on a train etc. during the first day or so. Why any Canadian going to Europe would buy US dollars makes no sense to me. Buying more than a small amount of Euros or GBP also makes no sense to me. There is no difficulty handling funds in Europe.

Buying cash in a foreign currency before you leave home costs more than using your card in another country either to get cash from an ATM using a debit card or pay for a purchase using a credit card. Cards always give you the best exchange rate. So the more cash you buy before leaving home, the more it costs you.

When I was talking about how a card might not work and an Embassy will not help you much, the point was about how people who think the government will bail them out, are incorrect in that belief. It was not a suggestion that someone has to carry a wad of cash just in case. What they need to do is rely on their own ability to take care of an issue. That can be as simple as carrying multiple cards or being able to talk a hotel into letting you stay while you sort out a problem. Not looking to others including our government, to solve their problems.

You're carrying too much cash when you travel it sounds like to me marina628 and buying it before leaving home is also not best practice. But that's a different issue entirely.


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## marina628

90% of my income is in US Dollars ,I only convert to Canadian to pay the bills here as my savings has been in US for 13 years now.I understand you have not been here as long as I have but by default US cash is what I always have on hand.Cruise ships operate in US even when you go to Europe .I have Euros ,GBP ,Aussie ,US Cad cash in my safe and have for years so it is not like I go and buy in today's rates.I go to conferences usually for work all over the globe 41 countries and counting so it is just my life ....


----------



## Plugging Along

Longtimeago said:


> I never carry more than a few hundred dollars in cash marina628 and only in CAD. There are actually not that many places in the world where US cash gives anyone an advantage. We carry 6 credit cards and 3 debit cards from 3 different banks. I have never not been able to find a way to get money or pay for something UNLESS it was in a remote area of a third world country. Then yes, carrying a bit more cash may make sense.
> 
> The average traveller on the average vacation to the usual suspect places however has no need to go to those extremes.


----------



## Plugging Along

As I have said in other threads, I carry larger amounts of emergency cash ALL the time... travelling or not. I carry enough that I can by plane tickets home, plus meals and accommodations for 48 hours. It's a lot of cash when you are travelling with 4. I also have each currency, plus US & Cdn, usually US. That any my spouse and I each have 3 different credit cards and different account. I have had to use every combination of this in my travel life over the years. 

I have taken the stance that when I travel I am prepared for as much as I can and though I hope my government will help me, I don't rely on them. Different stances on risk. Friends and family LOVE travelling with us. I have bailed co-travelers out of binds so many times, I don't know they normally travel without me.


----------



## marina628

Yeah on one trip we ended up giving a stranger from Mississauga $500 cash as their credit card was declined ,they did make good and pay it back a few days after we got home.I leave all jewelry home and nobody really thinks of robbing the poor girl in the wheelchair so I am very comfortable having cash hidden on me lol


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## peterk

Plugging Along said:


> As I have said in other threads, I carry larger amounts of emergency cash ALL the time... travelling or not. I carry enough that I can by plane tickets home, plus meals and accommodations for 48 hours. It's a lot of cash when you are travelling with 4. I also have each currency, plus US & Cdn, usually US. That any my spouse and I each have 3 different credit cards and different account. I have had to use every combination of this in my travel life over the years.
> 
> I have taken the stance that when I travel I am prepared for as much as I can and though I hope my government will help me, I don't rely on them. Different stances on risk. Friends and family LOVE travelling with us. I have bailed co-travelers out of binds so many times, I don't know they normally travel without me.


Wow. Enough cash for plane tickets?? Do the places you go not take any credit cards? For me, having $500 cash or so, plus all the credit and debit cards along and stashed in separate locations, is enough. This one time, though, I went to Argentina and needed to bring $4000 USD cold hard cash, because of their currency control restriction, and then convert to cash pesos on the black market.

For travel plans this year - Still hoping to get back home to Ontario in August with the baby. We'll see I guess.


----------



## newfoundlander61

marina628 said:


> I am hoping to get to Newfoundland for my usual 2 months to visit with my parents and get some work done on the house ,our hope was to start the process to install solar but no idea if that will happen now.


Currently if you travel to NFLD you are required to self isolate for 2 weeks.


----------



## Longtimeago

I look at 'livecam' video of our favourite place in Switzerland for hiking holidays (Davos-Klosters) and see very few people or vehicles on the streets. I don't think there is any chance of our going there in June for a hiking vacation.

I sometimes laugh when I think about all our hiking/backpacking 'vacations'. It has to be one of a few kinds of vacation activity where you push your body physically to its limits as often as not, nearly collapse at the end of a hard day, swear, 'never again' and then go back and do it again next year. Somehow, you forget the hard stuff and only remember the good stuff. Know what I mean?


----------



## Plugging Along

peterk said:


> Wow. Enough cash for plane tickets?? Do the places you go not take any credit cards? For me, having $500 cash or so, plus all the credit and debit cards along and stashed in separate locations, is enough. This one time, though, I went to Argentina and needed to bring $4000 USD cold hard cash, because of their currency control restriction, and then convert to cash pesos on the black market.
> 
> For travel plans this year - Still hoping to get back home to Ontario in August with the baby. We'll see I guess.


We goto most places that take credit card. But on more than one occasion the credit card systems were unavailable and Cash was what I Lowe us to escape or get to wear we were going. Since the first time, we always have cash. We don’t don’t use it all but it’s my risk mitigation.


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## ian

We usually take about $1500 in cash. We use credit cards whenever possible. When we withdraw from an ATM it is usually the equiv. of $400-$600 at a time. We encounter more and more smaller hotels asking for cash these days or adding a percentage fee for credit cards. Some give discounts for cash. Just came back from eight weeks in Mexico. Most of the smaller hotels where we stayed wanted cash.


----------



## Longtimeago

ian said:


> We usually take about $1500 in cash. We use credit cards whenever possible. When we withdraw from an ATM it is usually the equiv. of $400-$600 at a time. We encounter more and more smaller hotels asking for cash these days or adding a percentage fee for credit cards. Some give discounts for cash. Just came back from eight weeks in Mexico. Most of the smaller hotels where we stayed wanted cash.


There are always going to be things that work well for one individual but that are not relative to the majority of travellers ian. For example, while you find small hotels asking for cash, there are a growing number of hotels and especially chain hotels who will not ACCEPT cash at all. Another example where paying in cash is not likely to make sense is when someone is staying at a higher priced hotel for multiple nights. Are you going to go around carrying enough cash to pay a $10k hotel bill? Our last hotel bill for 2 people was around $5000 for a 10 night stay. Should we have carried cash to pay that?

So in all of this discussion about carrying cash, we either have to talk about a specific set of circumstances which really becomes pointless since every individual may differ, OR we have to talk about the general traveller who travels in the most common ways to the most common destinations. In other words, the 'typical vacationer'. That is the only category really that we can generalize about.


----------



## Longtimeago

Beyond how this virus will affect travel plans for this year which was the original point of this thread, I've been thinking about what it mean to travel even beyond that and even if we get a vaccine.

All the travel industry businesses of any kind are obviously going to be seriously affected. Airlines may fold, hotels may fold, etc. etc. People may think twice about travelling still having seen how quickly something can result in their being stranded in another country. Companies who have started working from home more, holding virtual meetings etc. may decide to continue doing that rather than flying to somewhere to hold a meeting etc.

So picture a lower demand for air travel, lower demand for hotels, etc. In the case of airlines, I think it will mean higher prices since to make any profit when selling less seats, they will have to charge more per seat. Hotels that have survived may be doing so through having had to take on more loan debt to see them through. They may also raise prices to cover that. 

All this may change travel for a long time even beyond the next year or two.


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## marina628

We are usually in Newfoundland for July 5 but if things are still this way mid May we decided we will not go at all this year and instead next year go May -September as this is last year our daughter has high school.


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## ian

We are looking at Morocco in October plus somewhere else. Thailand and Australia for the winter. Nothing firm. We will wait and see. If we do not feel comfortable with either we can stay home or select an alternate.


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## Longtimeago

For those who will want to travel, I think the first criteria has to be after a vaccine is available. While the rate of contagion may die down, I do not see it disappearing altogether.


----------



## Eclectic12

Depends ... human trials for a vaccine for SARS didn't get funded yet people traveled fairly quickly afterwards.


Cheers


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## andrewf

SARS never became endemic. And you were generally not contagious until you were already quite sick.


----------



## Longtimeago

Eclectic12 said:


> Depends ... human trials for a vaccine for SARS didn't get funded yet people traveled fairly quickly afterwards.
> 
> 
> Cheers


Not really applicable Eclectic12 but I'm not going to go into the reasons why. I'll just repeat my comment that in MY opinion only, the first criteria should be whether there is a vaccine available or not. I don't foresee travelling anytime in the next say 2 years without having been vaccinated for this virus.


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## Longtimeago

The Federal government just showed their modelling for the virus. Reading between the lines in regards to travel, travel restrictions will stay in place for the foreseeable future. At least through the summer and perhaps even longer.

I don't see anyone being told it is OK to even go to the cottage this summer. Air travel whether domestic or international is likely to remain restricted to essential travel. Quarantine on return to Canada is likely to remain in place. Even a day at the beach is probably not going to be allowed.


----------



## andrewf

Longtimeago said:


> The Federal government just showed their modelling for the virus. Reading between the lines in regards to travel, travel restrictions will stay in place for the foreseeable future. At least through the summer and perhaps even longer.
> 
> I don't see anyone being told it is OK to even go to the cottage this summer. Air travel whether domestic or international is likely to remain restricted to essential travel. Quarantine on return to Canada is likely to remain in place. Even a day at the beach is probably not going to be allowed.


I think once the initial wave passes it should be fine to go to vacation properties. The main reason to avoid it was to avoid putting undue strain on northern hospitals if a bunch of people decided to shelter in place at their cottage and ended up developing illness while up north. Once the number of new cases declines, then this concern abates significantly.


----------



## Longtimeago

andrewf said:


> I think once the initial wave passes it should be fine to go to vacation properties. The main reason to avoid it was to avoid putting undue strain on northern hospitals if a bunch of people decided to shelter in place at their cottage and ended up developing illness while up north. Once the number of new cases declines, then this concern abates significantly.


Yes, that may be one restriction they could decide to relax andrewf. But not until we are at the bottom of the curve for this first wave. The best case Federal model did not show that in fact until well INTO the summer and that is BEST case don't forget.

Those going to the cottage before that will be defying the restriction to stay away and that is what I feel may happen. That of course will defeat ALL the reasons why they should not be going. They don't just stay in the cottage or in the water do they. They go into town, they buy groceries, a new set of water skis etc. etc. They INTERACT.

Quite a few popular tourist destinations have already started saying 'don't come this year'. It's not just a question of hospital beds that are involved. I don't know what province you are in but if I think about somewhere like Wasaga Beach in Ontario, the number of day trippers and cottagers who are there on any given summer weekend is pretty high. There is no way they could maintain physical distancing. We are talking about over 1.6 MILLION visitors in the tourist season. Wasaga provincial park visitor numbers up 15% over 2015

How do you allow cottage owners and not allow day trippers? How do you allow cottage owners but tell them not to go into town and interact with anyone? 

You could relax the restrictions on cottage owners when it is OUT of season, but in season? If someone has a cottage on a small lake with just a few other cottages around the lake, they may not present a problem even in season but when you 'open the door', you open the door to ALL andrewf.

It just isn't a simple decision to allow someone to visit their cottage.


----------



## andrewf

Longtimeago said:


> How do you allow cottage owners and not allow day trippers? How do you allow cottage owners but tell them not to go into town and interact with anyone?


Uhh, you can keep public places (including public beaches and parks) & non-essential businesses closed? I honestly don't know how you stop people from going to their cottage for the summer, short of an internal ban on travel. I doubt that will be implemented if we are successful to flattening the curve (as we seem to be starting to see).


----------



## Longtimeago

andrewf said:


> Uhh, you can keep public places (including public beaches and parks) & non-essential businesses closed? I honestly don't know how you stop people from going to their cottage for the summer, short of an internal ban on travel. I doubt that will be implemented if we are successful to flattening the curve (as we seem to be starting to see).


Try extending the thinking beyond cottagers to include all 'day trippers' including people who just 'day trip' to some other part of a city like Toronto andrewf. 

On any given day in the summer, Toronto's Harbourfront is packed with people just out for the day. Are they all going to stay home as the weather gets warmer? I don't think so. I think the number of people ignoring the restrictions is simply going to increase due to human nature.

That is why I do not see us 'flattening the curve' as much as people hope we will or getting near the end of this first wave as soon as they hope we will. The only way to stay on track to getting to the end of this first wave may be to bring in even more draconian measures than we now have.

We may well have to introduce a domestic ban on all 'non-essential' travel. In France, even to go out to buy groceries, you must download and print out (I have no idea how those without a printer are supposed to do this) a form EACH and every time you leave your home. On the form, you provide the details of your name, etc. and the reason why you are out of your home.


https://www.thelocal.fr/20200325/lockdown-permission-form-what-is-it-and-where-do-you-find-it



Once again, I am quite sure our government at all levels will already be considering this already. They have to be unless everyone is incredibly stupid. They may already expect to have to do this but as they have all along, they don't want to load the whole weight onto people at one time. As they have all along, they will keep adding a few pounds of the load (so to speak) onto people's back at a time. 

A 'lockdown' is different from just being ASKED to 'stay home as much as possible' which we now have. A 'lockdown' will indeed mean no non-essential travel whatsoever. We may have to get to that point.


----------



## ian

If you want to see what a real lock down looks like google to see what they are doing in Korea, or in Panama.


----------



## Longtimeago

We are hearing now about restrictions continuing well into the summer. Again, they are spoon feeding the public in small bite size pieces. The WHO has put out guidelines for easing up and reducing restrictions. Read number 5 here:








COVID-19: The WHO has issued guidelines for lifting restrictions. But is Canada ready?


Similar discussions are happening around the world, as many countries are starting to show some positive signs of slowing the spread




nationalpost.com





I still don't see any chance of unrestricted travel this year and even beyond that until we have a vaccine readily available.


----------



## ian

There may be unrestricted travel at some point that however this is somewhat meaningless to us. We do not plan to travel until we feel it is safe for us to do so. We may feel reluctant to travel, or travel to certain places, for months after restricted travel recommendations are lifted. We have traveled to a few places when there were travel advisories posted but never when there was a health or weather advisory. We assess the risk and act accordingly. When it comes to health risks we very much err on the side of caution.


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## Eder

We'll be heading back to Hawaii as soon as the border opens up to travel... in at least another month anyways.


----------



## Longtimeago

Eder said:


> We'll be heading back to Hawaii as soon as the border opens up to travel... in at least another month anyways.


Trump has been talking about opening the border to Canada but I do not think Canada will be opening our border to Americans any time soon. So you may get to go to Hawaii but no Hawaiians are going to get to come to Canada.


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## Longtimeago

Not all those stranded have something to complain about. 

This guy has ended up in a situation that couldn't really be much better for someone stranded by the virus.









Hiker shelters from virus on deserted Scottish island


What happens when you're nearly three years into the middle of a 8,700 mile hike, you've given up your home, you have no money -- and then coronavirus stops the




www.foxcarolina.com





Click to the other photos to see the scenery he is surrounded by and his free cottage. Anyone who loves the outdoors and is useful at fishing, gathering mussels when the tide is out etc. would pay real money to vacation where he is 'stranded'.


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## Money172375

Eder said:


> We'll be heading back to Hawaii as soon as the border opens up to travel... in at least another month anyways.


where do you stay? Any tips? what time of year is best for weather and price? Planning a trip there in 2021.


----------



## andrewf

Longtimeago said:


> Trump has been talking about opening the border to Canada but I do not think Canada will be opening our border to Americans any time soon. So you may get to go to Hawaii but no Hawaiians are going to get to come to Canada.


Canadians are allowed to return.


----------



## Eder

Money172375 said:


> where do you stay? Any tips? what time of year is best for weather and price? Planning a trip there in 2021.



I stay on my boat in Ko Olina ...its west about 20 minutes from Oahu...its a secure area of houses, golf course, restaurants & a Disney resort/4 Seasons etc. The resorts are pretty pricey, but I like it as there's 4 nice protected beaches, snorkeling is close at Electric Beach, Costco etc is 4 miles away. You would need a car.

Its never cheap in Hawaii, groceries and wine is expensive compared to the mainland, any edible restaurant will cost. Lots of crummy restaurants that would never be in business on the mainland.

The best weather is during hurricane season...end of May to end of August...less trade wind action , best for golf but surfing is not as good as winter. Winter is the time for surfing/kite boarding and wind surfing though if thats your passion. It seemed to me to be more crowded in summer than winter...being Canadian I would have thought this is backwards.

After this virus thing I think prices will become very competitive once things open up there...they are suffering deeply thru lack of tourism.

If I was to go and stay in rental accommodation I would stay in a BnB or a cooking suite in Lahina on Maui. Best food in Hawaii is in the grocery store.Great town, lots of fun, snorkeling & beginner surf right in walking distance. We have stayed in the Pioneer Inn there...old hotel but huge lānai and great location.

Car rentals are pretty expensive, tourist taxes on rooms & cars is extreme....$50/day is a cheap price there for a rental car. I rented from a rent a wreck type joint...was about $20/day but the car was well...a wreck lol.

Anyway I would bring only about 1/3 the clothes but 3x the spending money than normal. I think the best things about Hawaii for me is that everything (boat parts,sports equipment,good steaks)is readily available, there's no language barrier and flights are cheap & direct. 

Having said all that I still put the Gold Coast of Mexico ahead of anywhere else I have been long enough to form an opinion.


----------



## Longtimeago

andrewf said:


> Canadians are allowed to return.


Yes and also allowed to depart.

I just took a look to see what would happen if I were hypothetically say, 'I don't care, I want to go hiking in Switzerland next month.' I took a look because I just received an e-mail from a hotel in Switzerland we have stayed with before, telling me they are opening as of the end of May and offering deals. Then I looked at, is Air Canada flying to Zurich which they are and also offering deals.

But then I looked at Switzerland current restrictions on travellers entering the country. Only those who qualify as essential are allowed entry. So I could book a hotel and a flight but I would be refused entry if I got there and probably be refused boarding I would imagine if I turned up at the airport in Toronto.

So it's a kind of weird situation where flights are flying but you can't go anyway. Eder wrote somewhere about flights being listed to Hawaii and he was looking at going back to his boat there. I wonder if the same thing would happen with that. You can book the flight but you can't enter the country if you got there because the USA still has its borders closed to all foreigners just as we do.


----------



## Eder

I'm assuming since Westjet resumed booking flights June 5th that USA border will be open. From the look of things there's no reason not to open it next month.

I see a new rv pulled in here yesterday...California plates...wonder how they got here?


----------



## Longtimeago

Eder said:


> I'm assuming since Westjet resumed booking flights June 5th that USA border will be open. From the look of things there's no reason not to open it next month.
> 
> I see a new rv pulled in here yesterday...California plates...wonder how they got here?


My guess is dual citizenship. The only people that can enter Canada right now other than 'essential workers' are Canadian legal residents. So your CA plated RV either has Canadians with a CA registered RV or they are dual citizens who cannot be denied entry.

Assuming because Westjet has flights it means you will be able to fly is just an assumption. As I wrote, there are international flights now but you can't get on them unless you have an acceptable way of ENTERING the country the flight is going to. So I could go hiking next month in Switzerland, IF I had dual citizenship for example. 

Being able to book a flight does not mean you will be able to board a flight and we know what happened to all the people who had flights booked in March and wanted to cancel. No refunds. 

There is no way I expect OUR border to be open to Americans next month. Whether their border is open to Canadians is up to them but I wouldn't assume it based on Westjet taking bookings.


----------



## ian

For some countries citizenship by itself is meaningless. Many people have dual citizenship. In fact, just about all Canadian citizens not born in Canada have dual citizenship.

It is my understanding that many countries require two things in order to grant entry during these times. Citizenship and proof of residency. These are two very different animals. Proof of residency seemingly being the more important of the two.


----------



## sags

There are still 318 Canadians stuck on 98 cruise ships, along with 80,000 other crew members.

_There are 122 cruise ships in U.S. waters with more than 80,000 crew members on board, according to the U.S. Coast Guard.

Global Affairs Canada told CBC News it's currently tracking 98 cruise ships still at sea carrying an estimated 318 Canadian crew members._




https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/cruise-ships-stranded-crew-members-cdc-covid-19-1.5552424


----------



## Longtimeago

ian said:


> For some countries citizenship by itself is meaningless. Many people have dual citizenship. In fact, just about all Canadian citizens not born in Canada have dual citizenship.
> 
> It is my understanding that many countries require two things in order to grant entry during these times. Citizenship and proof of residency. These are two very different animals. Proof of residency seemingly being the more important of the two.


That's a bit of a tricky one ian. Assuming someone wanted to go somewhere regardless of the virus, I do not know if any country could deny entry to a citizen regardless of any current restrictions they have put in place including residency. You might have to go to court to force them to allow you to enter but you would probably win. Suppose for example a dual citizen were to say, 'I'm moving back to X, let me in.' 

Can you provide any links that show 'residency' as being 'the more important of the two' as you believe? I had another look at Switzerland for example and all it talks about is 'returning citizens' or 'other states'. It says nothing about residency whatsoever in regards to Swiss citizens. It does refer under 'other states' to entry being allowed by those who are 'resident' (but not Swiss citizens) being allowed entry.








Coronavirus: Travel


Recommendations for travel abroad, conditions for entry into Switzerland, use of the Swiss COVID certificate for travel




www.bag.admin.ch





So either citizenship gets you entry OR residency for a non-citizen gets you entry.


----------



## Longtimeago

It is beginning to look more and more like travel to anywhere on vacation is not likely to happen at all this year certainly and who knows for how much longer beyond that. What country is going to open its borders to outside travellers assuming anyone wants to go to start with?

New Zealand is now at ZERO cases. It would be a nice time to go do some hiking there if I could get on a plane without risk of infection, didn't have to quarantine for 2 weeks once I go there. But even if I was willing to deal with that, they don't want us.








New Zealand PM: No open borders for 'a long time'


But Jacinda Ardern said "a safe zone of travel" between Australia and her country may be possible.



www.bbc.com





I'm also thinking back to an earlier response here about cruise bookings being higher than ever for 2021. It's not a question of why would anyone risk a cruise after seeing what we have seen, it's also a question of how will they get to the departure port if it is not in their own country and where will they cruise to if no one will let them land? LOL


----------



## ian

I have spent some time thinking about where our next three trips will be. This fall, a winter, and next fall. We have a general idea that will always be subject to pricing and availability. All are outside NA but do have back up plans.

One thing we are looking at, besides whether we can get there or enter, is how the country is handling covid. Huge differences between countries. For winter Vietnam has/is doing a first rate job by all accounts. Thailand is the opposite. Australia is excellent but will probably not let us in. Same for NZ. Absolutely no desire to go to the US. Mexico is not great but huge variances between states. The state we would choose Guerrero looks good now but who knows by next month. Panama is excellent but not certain if they will let us in. Have not seen any data yet from Costa Rica on how they are doing. We plan for a two month trip. Not looking very good for the winter. This fall was supposed to be Morocco,and Iberia. Instead, it looks like BC and Alberta touring. Perhaps some Ontario.


----------



## james4beach

New Zealand is at zero cases precisely because they don't allow infection-carrying foreigners (like us) into their country.

I'm trying to figure out what's happening in Canada for domestic travel. I need to move to BC. Can I do it? Currently it seems to me that if I set foot in another province, I am facing a 2 week quarantine. Do you think inter provincial travel is going to open up soon?


----------



## Eder

People are crossing provinces daily. Steady traffic between BC & Alberta...lots of golfers.


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## james4beach

Eder said:


> People are crossing provinces daily. Steady traffic between BC & Alberta...lots of golfers.


I thought there was a mandatory quarantine requirement when crossing those borders


----------



## nobleea

james4beach said:


> I thought there was a mandatory quarantine requirement when crossing those borders


I think it's only when crossing international borders. Some areas have more stringent requirements where they don't have large numbers of cases, such as the territories.
Govts are recommending no non-essential travel, but many are ignoring that.

We will likely book a cabin in the okanagan for late Aug. They all have good cancellation policies if that kind of travel is forbidden at that time or something else comes up.
Our provincial campgrounds are open, but only to locals. We have a site booked in Dinosaur park - never been.


----------



## newfoundlander61

Would like to go to my birth place of Newfoundland but it appears that this will not happen based on their current Alert levels and a waiting period of 28 years between each level being changed.


----------



## Money172375

As restrictions ease, I keep hearing that social distancing will need to continue until a vaccine is available or herd immunity is obtained. Sounds like 12-18 months for either.

in the meantime, how is airline travel and mass transit going to work? Will airlines fly planes 1/3 full until 2022? Will mass transit do the same? Has anyone seen what the Toronto subway is normally like? When will borders be opened? Predictions or thoughts on any of this?

I think people are excited about less restrictions but they haven’t given much thought to how these large group activities will not be the same for the foreseeable future.

is it possible that a 24 month travel credit (I’m still fighting with WJ who’s offered 13 months) will not be enough time?


----------



## Mukhang pera

Money172375 said:


> As restrictions ease, I keep hearing that social distancing will need to continue until a vaccine is available or herd immunity is obtained. Sounds like 12-18 months for either.
> ...
> Predictions or thoughts on any of this?


My prediction is there will never be an effective vaccine. 

Assuming that herd immunity can be attained, what with "social distancing" and "flattening the curve" it will take at least a decade to achieve. Just take a look at the world population (or just look at Canada if you like) and the numbers that we know of that have been infected already. Minuscule. Those puny numbers will hardly bring about herd immunity. So lockdown will be the order of the day for at least 10 years, unless we get sensible and decide to allow nature to take her course. I also predict that will happen because too many will become disenchanted with the effect of lockdown on the economy and on life as we know it in general. Further, I don't believe government can sustain CERB and all the other handouts for a decade or more.

All the present talk about re-opening the economy is just plain silly unless one agrees to a lot more infections. After all, what has changed in the past few weeks to suggest that we can now ease restrictions without feeling the lash? Absolutely nothing.


----------



## Longtimeago

ian said:


> I have spent some time thinking about where our next three trips will be. This fall, a winter, and next fall. We have a general idea that will always be subject to pricing and availability. All are outside NA but do have back up plans.
> 
> One thing we are looking at, besides whether we can get there or enter, is how the country is handling covid. Huge differences between countries. For winter Vietnam has/is doing a first rate job by all accounts. Thailand is the opposite. Australia is excellent but will probably not let us in. Same for NZ. Absolutely no desire to go to the US. Mexico is not great but huge variances between states. The state we would choose Guerrero looks good now but who knows by next month. Panama is excellent but not certain if they will let us in. Have not seen any data yet from Costa Rica on how they are doing. We plan for a two month trip. Not looking very good for the winter. This fall was supposed to be Morocco,and Iberia. Instead, it looks like BC and Alberta touring. Perhaps some Ontario.


Well at the moment, you are not wanted in BC or Alberta ian. Not in Ontario cottage country etc. either. In fact, I don't know of anywhere in Canada that is saying they want to welcome tourists anytime soon.








BC Travel Restrictions: Tourism Officials Beg People To 'Please Stay Home'


If you had planned on travelling in and around B.C. this summer you may want to rethink your decisions. Tourism officials in B.C. have officially announced that they are begging people to stay home and cancel any and all trips around the province. B.C. tourism this summer may look a little...




www.narcity.com





That may change by this Fall but who knows.


----------



## Longtimeago

nobleea said:


> I think it's only when crossing international borders. Some areas have more stringent requirements where they don't have large numbers of cases, such as the territories.
> Govts are recommending no non-essential travel, but many are ignoring that.
> 
> We will likely book a cabin in the okanagan for late Aug. They all have good cancellation policies if that kind of travel is forbidden at that time or something else comes up.
> Our provincial campgrounds are open, but only to locals. We have a site booked in Dinosaur park - never been.


Does travel have to be 'forbidden' or is it enough that BC is saying they don't want you nobleea? Does the fact that some people are 'ignoring' the recommendation regarding non-essential travel, excuse you deciding to do some non-essential travel?


----------



## kcowan

nobleea said:


> Our provincial campgrounds are open, but only to locals. We have a site booked in Dinosaur park - never been.


We have been and it is very enjoyable. Just beware of a sudden Chinook wind. The earth has very sharp shrapnel that gets airborne! I had to protect my children against the sudden wind. All was fine after 5 minutes.


----------



## Longtimeago

Money172375 said:


> As restrictions ease, I keep hearing that social distancing will need to continue until a vaccine is available or herd immunity is obtained. Sounds like 12-18 months for either.
> 
> in the meantime, how is airline travel and mass transit going to work? Will airlines fly planes 1/3 full until 2022? Will mass transit do the same? Has anyone seen what the Toronto subway is normally like? When will borders be opened? Predictions or thoughts on any of this?
> 
> I think people are excited about less restrictions but they haven’t given much thought to how these large group activities will not be the same for the foreseeable future.
> 
> is it possible that a 24 month travel credit (I’m still fighting with WJ who’s offered 13 months) will not be enough time?


LOL, what do you do if you book a flight and then when it comes time to board you find this is the situation.








Coronavirus: Aer Lingus review after packed flight complaint


Passengers on a Belfast-Heathrow flight were sat side by side despite social-distancing guidelines.



www.bbc.com





Back up and say, 'whoa, no way am I getting on that plane. Give me a refund.' Good luck with that.

No airline can make money flying a plane that actually maintains 6 foot distancing. You would only be able to seat say 1 seat in 9 in an ordinary economy class. The fact is that if someone chooses to fly in the foreseeable future, they are going to have to accept the increased risk that will bring with it.

Here you are asking about travel credits. Did you not learn your lesson with WJ? Book fully cancellable/refundable tickets if you really think you must book.

You also missed a BIG issue regarding future travel. What about INSURANCE? No insurer is going to cover Covid19 under their health coverage. So if you go somewhere, develop symptoms, test positive, you will be on your own for healthcare costs wherever you are. You will not be allowed to board a flight back to Canada either.


----------



## Longtimeago

Mukhang pera said:


> My prediction is there will never be an effective vaccine.
> 
> Assuming that herd immunity can be attained, what with "social distancing" and "flattening the curve" it will take at least a decade to achieve. Just take a look at the world population (or just look at Canada if you like) and the numbers that we know of that have been infected already. Minuscule. Those puny numbers will hardly bring about herd immunity. So lockdown will be the order of the day for at least 10 years, unless we get sensible and decide to allow nature to take her course. I also predict that will happen because too many will become disenchanted with the effect of lockdown on the economy and on life as we know it in general. Further, I don't believe government can sustain CERB and all the other handouts for a decade or more.
> 
> All the present talk about re-opening the economy is just plain silly unless one agrees to a lot more infections. After all, what has changed in the past few weeks to suggest that we can now ease restrictions without feeling the lash? Absolutely nothing.


It is as they are now saying, 'health or wealth'. Why some people seem to think we can 'ease open' without an increase in cases I don't know. Opening up comes at a cost in lives, there is no way to avoid that.

I just hope you are wrong about a vaccine. Without it, I cannot see the economy ever recovering and in fact expect it would continue downwards until some kind of final collapse and we end up with total anarchy before we can reach 'herd immunity' assuming that it exists, there is no guarantee of that either.


----------



## nobleea

Longtimeago said:


> Does travel have to be 'forbidden' or is it enough that BC is saying they don't want you nobleea? Does the fact that some people are 'ignoring' the recommendation regarding non-essential travel, excuse you deciding to do some non-essential travel?


I like to plan ahead. It's 3 months away. If things open up and they welcome tourists again with some precautions, then I have a reservation booked at an unheard of price. If they don't and people are advised to limit travel across provincial lines to essential travel, then we cancel it for free. Big deal. Same goes if there's massive forest fires in the region that would make it unenjoyable.


----------



## Longtimeago

People are complaining that they are not receiving refunds or even an offer to allow them to reschedule their bookings on sites like VRBO and AirBnB. Families struggle to get refunds for short-term rentals cancelled due to pandemic

I wish when they report on cases like this, they would at the same time report on what would have happened if they had booked with say Marriott or directly with an independent hotel. Answer, they would not have paid UP FRONT and they would be able to cancel without any penalty. 

I feel sorry for people who lose money but I wonder how many of them will learn not to use third party booking sites and not to pay in advance.


----------



## kcowan

I think everyone understands that we must pay extra for flexibility. So we get rewarded for committing in advance. Of course that logic breaks down during a pandemic or natural disaster.


----------



## Beaver101

Longtimeago said:


> People are complaining that they are not receiving refunds or even an offer to allow them to *reschedule their bookings on sites like VRBO and AirBnB.* Families struggle to get refunds for short-term rentals cancelled due to pandemic
> 
> I wish when they report on cases like this, they would at the same time report on what would have happened if they had booked with say Marriott or directly with an independent hotel. Answer, they would not have paid UP FRONT and they would be able to cancel without any penalty.
> 
> I feel sorry for people who lose money but I wonder how many of them will learn not to use third party booking sites and not to pay in advance.


 ... too bad. I guess there's no fine print to read and regulators to turn to with using such services. Cry them a river.


----------



## ian

We occasionally use third party booking sites when they offer better prices or better conditions. Many third party booking sites are excellent. Others are not. We did two late bookings with a third party this past winter while traveling in Mexico. Both were RIU hotels. Our best price came from TUI Vacations in the UK. Twenty percent saving over what RIU or anyone else could offer. Our last 5 day stay was in PV ending in mid/late March. Hotel was perfect. Recently rec'd a credit note from TUI for the entire amount because the last two days they were closing part of the resort. We did not ask for it or expect it because it had no negative impact on our enjoyment. Some people are struggling to get refunds. But some who have had vendor cancellations are immediately booking charge disputes with their credit card providers and are having success.

Book direct? We do. But not always. We have booked and paid in advance with Marriott and with Accor numerous times on a no cancel/no refund basis. Only when the saving is 25 percent over their best rate and we are certain of going. The amount at risk is low. We have done this in a few cities in SE Asia for five of the past six winters. This past fall in Greece we booked an Aegean flight on Expedia (and I dislike expedia) for $75 each. Booking direct on Aegean's website, as we would normally do, would have been $129. for the same flight. We experienced exactly the same this winter in Mexico when booking an Interjet flight. I have no idea how this occurs but it does from time to time.

After eight/nine years of frequent travel we have found that late booking prices are often as good or better than advance bookings. We have had lots of great offers by booking hotels three days out or air 4-6 weeks out, sometimes less. Nothing is set in stone. It is all based on supply and demand.

Our experience is that there is not set rule.


----------



## Longtimeago

kcowan said:


> I think everyone understands that we must pay extra for flexibility. So we get rewarded for committing in advance. Of course that logic breaks down during a pandemic or natural disaster.


I disagree with your basic assumption kcowan. It's all in how you look at it, isn't it. I see it as LOSING something that we used to get as standard. There is no 'reward' being gained, only a loss.

Remember that old saying, 'the customer is always right'? We, the customer, used to get what we wanted but now it is the airlines, hotels, and third party travel agents who are getting what THEY want. They are driving the bus now, not the customer. The customers have GIVEN away their control to them.

You do not need a pandemic or natural disaster for the system to break down. All you need is to want to cancel something for any reason at all. Either you can cancel without penalty or you cannot. In the past you always could, now people usually cannot.

I know why people agree to accept such conditions is price but if they do so, then they have no cause to complain when they lose their money. If they 'understand they must pay extra for flexibility' kcowan, then why are they complaining? They do not UNDERSTAND at all, what agreement they have entered into.


----------



## Longtimeago

ian said:


> We occasionally use third party booking sites when they offer better prices or better conditions. Many third party booking sites are excellent. Others are not. We did two late bookings with a third party this past winter while traveling in Mexico. Both were RIU hotels. Our best price came from TUI Vacations in the UK. Twenty percent saving over what RIU or anyone else could offer. Our last 5 day stay was in PV ending in mid/late March. Hotel was perfect. Recently rec'd a credit note from TUI for the entire amount because the last two days they were closing part of the resort. We did not ask for it or expect it because it had no negative impact on our enjoyment. Some people are struggling to get refunds. But some who have had vendor cancellations are immediately booking charge disputes with their credit card providers and are having success.
> 
> Book direct? We do. But not always. We have booked and paid in advance with Marriott and with Accor numerous times on a no cancel/no refund basis. Only when the saving is 25 percent over their best rate and we are certain of going. The amount at risk is low. We have done this in a few cities in SE Asia for five of the past six winters. This past fall in Greece we booked an Aegean flight on Expedia (and I dislike expedia) for $75 each. Booking direct on Aegean's website, as we would normally do, would have been $129. for the same flight. We experienced exactly the same this winter in Mexico when booking an Interjet flight. I have no idea how this occurs but it does from time to time.
> 
> After eight/nine years of frequent travel we have found that late booking prices are often as good or better than advance bookings. We have had lots of great offers by booking hotels three days out or air 4-6 weeks out, sometimes less. Nothing is set in stone. It is all based on supply and demand.
> 
> Our experience is that there is not set rule.


Yes, there will always be acceptions to any general rule. That's why we call things a 'general rule' rather than an 'absolute rule' isn't it.

When I phone a hotel and make a reservation with that hotel directly, I ask for a price and they give me one. Then I ask for their terms and perhaps they tell me, 'non-cancellable, non-refundable price is X and flexible price is Y.' I respond that I like X but want Y conditions or I will not book. I have done this repeatedly and ALWAYS got Y terms at X price. You can't do that with Airbnb, or Expedia, etc. can you.

The difference is that some people ACCEPT such conditions while others REFUSE to accept such conditions and we the public should NEVER have started accepting such conditions to begin with. As I wrote to kcowan, the travelling public have given away their control over their travel.


----------



## ian

People accept them because the price of the package is often well below the sum price of the individual parts. There is not secret to this. Sometimes vendors such as TUI sell off unsold rooms at an attractive rate from blocks they have pre- purchased . We are more than happy to accept the restrictions and the risk. In the past year we have done this for five night stays. Twice in Cyprus this past fall, twice in Mexico this winter. As late walk ins in other areas we have benefited from some excellent prices and some wonderful upgrades. You sometimes simply have to ask the right way! Like all other purchases there are trade offs. It also helps to sign up for memberships in the various hotel programs...Marriott, Accor, Rui, Melia, etc Often membership is good for a last minute room or complementary amenity.

In our experience there is no one set way to obtain the best price or the best booking conditions-advance, same day, direct, third party, cash payment, credit card payment. Our experience is that there are so many variables and so many options on the web. The constant variable always seems to me to be supply and demand, not direct vs indirect. People make the buy decision based on the best information they have and weigh the risk and rewards of the various booking conditions. No right or wrong way, and certainly many ways to get the best of both.


----------



## Longtimeago

ian said:


> People accept them because the price of the package is often well below the sum price of the individual parts. There is not secret to this. Sometimes vendors such as TUI sell off unsold rooms at an attractive rate from blocks they have pre- purchased . We are more than happy to accept the restrictions and the risk. In the past year we have done this for five night stays. Twice in Cyprus this past fall, twice in Mexico this winter. As late walk ins in other areas we have benefited from some excellent prices and some wonderful upgrades. You sometimes simply have to ask the right way! Like all other purchases there are trade offs. It also helps to sign up for memberships in the various hotel programs...Marriott, Accor, Rui, Melia, etc Often membership is good for a last minute room or complementary amenity.
> 
> In our experience there is no one set way to obtain the best price or the best booking conditions-advance, same day, direct, third party, cash payment, credit card payment. Our experience is that there are so many variables and so many options on the web. The constant variable always seems to me to be supply and demand, not direct vs indirect. People make the buy decision based on the best information they have and weigh the risk and rewards of the various booking conditions. No right or wrong way, and certainly many ways to get the best of both.


Some do as you say ian, most do not as far as I can see. You are more sophisticated travellers in terms of understanding how it all works than most typical tourists. So I am back to 'general rule' and not your 'specific' experiences.

I can agree with you there is no 'one way' on a given day for a given travel purchase. But the majority of people are in fact using only ONE way. They are not doing the research to find the BEST way today and in most cases, the ONLY criteria they consider is price. They click on 'book' without even knowing the conditions.

In any case, the issue today is people are losing their money due to the agreements they entered into that have been upset by Covid19 and yet they are complaining about it as if they had some right to complain. They do not, they AGREED to the conditions. They need to learn to look at more than price.


----------



## Retired Peasant

Apparently cruise bookings are up - way up
Cruise ship bookings jump 600% as Carnival reveals plans to resume trips in August


----------



## Plugging Along

As with anything, it's up to the buyer to do their research and homework. I have had absolutely no problems with any of my bookings through 3rd parties or air bnb's. I just got my full refund for a condo I booked at the beginning of March. I double checked the cancellation policy with both Air BnB and the owner. I was holding out to the last minute for a miracle that didn't happen. Two clicks of a button, 5 days later and the I received the full refund. 

Our work just reminded us that our travel health benefits will not apply if there is a travel advisory and we have to cancel or isolate when we return home. It did pay for people who had recently returned home and had to isolate for 14 days because there was no advisory at the time they booked and left. 

We had planned for a family reunion cruise or vacation this year but now will be looking very carefully at what we may do. Instead the celebration may be more local at a resort like place which will require no flying. However, nothing will be booked until we are clearer on risks and impacts. I am okay without paying for complete flexibility under certain circumstances.


----------



## Longtimeago

Hawaii have been cracking down on people who ignore their 14 day quarantine. 








Hawaii discourages tourists from coming to the state through at least the end of June


Hawaii Gov. David Ige said in an online question-and-answer session that the mandatory quarantine for any travelers visiting Hawaii will continue until the end of June.




www.cnn.com





I guess since travel between states is not restricted, these are people who had vacations booked and no doubt,, said as people did before the March Break, 'well, I've bought and paid for my trip and can't get my money back, so I'm going'. Then when they got there said, 'well, no way am I spending my 2 week vacation in quarantine, screw your rules.'

Air Canada has just announced a layoff of 20,000 employees again. They rehired under the government subsidized pay program but are now saying they are going to have to lay employees off long term. 








Air Canada to lay off 20,000 workers amid travel industry collapse


The move comes amid ongoing border shutdowns and confinement measures that have tanked travel demand, prompting Air Canada to ground some 225 airplanes and slash flight capacity by 95 per cent




www.theglobeandmail.com





Clearly, they are bowing to the inevitable and for the consumer that has ramifications as well obviously in terms of price for a far more limited number of seats and availability of flights to anywhere. Air Canada will not be alone in that regard. I wonder what will happen with the majority of the Low Cost Carriers who fly so many of the cheap package vacation flights people buy. 

I think Plugging Along may be right in thinking about a domestic vacation assuming that is reasonably possible anytime soon (as in this year or next). The issue there though already is that many domestic vacation spots are also saying, 'we don't want you'. 








'Please stay home': Town locals across Canada urge tourists not to visit this long weekend


Locals of lakeside communities such as picturesque Port Dover, Ont., are asking tourists and cottagers to stay home this long weekend, concerned that an influx of outsiders could expose their communities to COVID-19.



www.ctvnews.ca





So while a hotel might open or someone might be willing to rent you a cottage, how comfortable would it be to go somewhere when you know the locals do not want you there? I certainly wouldn't go somewhere and ignore the locals just to meet my own selfish wishes.

There is a definite disconnect between what local residents may want and what local businesses may want. Contrast the link above to this link: Pandemic threatens survival in Grand Bend, Port Stanley, other tourist towns along lakes

So business wants tourists to return and residents do not want them to return anytime soon. My guess is we will see people saying, 'well, the hotel took my booking, so it's OK if I go there.'


----------



## ian

We have three trips at the very top of our respective bucket lists. But that is where they will stay. We cannot see making any firm plans for until at least next spring, probably longer. We do not know enough about the virus, how it is being handled in those countries on our list, and whether there will be a drug that is somewhat effective in combating the symptoms. Cannot imagine a vaccine in the next year, let alone mass availability of same. 

Sure, people are booking cruises. Two big questions. Will those cruises ever leave the dock? Cruise line have a desperate need for cash, they will do anything to grab a fare, hold on to it for 120-180 days, and then refund or perhaps even provide credit incentives in lieu of refunds. Beats the 11 or so points that they are apparently paying on short term money now..


----------



## Longtimeago

ian said:


> We have three trips at the very top of our respective bucket lists. But that is where they will stay. We cannot see making any firm plans for until at least next spring, probably longer. We do not know enough about the virus, how it is being handled in those countries on our list, and whether there will be a drug that is somewhat effective in combating the symptoms. Cannot imagine a vaccine in the next year, let alone mass availability of same.
> 
> Sure, people are booking cruises. Two big questions. Will those cruises ever leave the dock? Cruise line have a desperate need for cash, they will do anything to grab a fare, hold on to it for 120-180 days, and then refund or perhaps even provide credit incentives in lieu of refunds. Beats the 11 or so points that they are apparently paying on short term money now..


I also wouldn't want to try and guess what it will cost to get medical insurance that would cover anyone for Covid19 before there is a cure or vaccine ian and that's assuming you could get coverage at all.


----------



## ian

Agree completely. 

I cannot imagine any out of country health insurer underwriting covid19 related coverage in their travel medical insurance package.

Even more to the point, I cannot see them including evac or repatriation costs for the patient. Same for the trip interuption insurance policies.

I am not smart enough to know where this is going but I am fairly certain that we will not have any solid answers to the question for some time to come.


----------



## Longtimeago

An item on the news this morning was about people who had flights booked including with third party 'flight cancellation/interruption insurance' and who have been given a 'credit' by the airlines for a future flight. Some wanted a refund instead and turned to the insurance companies for that. 

The insurers have stated that the coverage is for 'financial loss' and there is no such loss if you get a voucher for a future flight. That applies to flights booked before the virus and so it is not hard to know what to expect for any future flight someone might book today.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Longtimeago said:


> An item on the news this morning was about people who had flights booked including with third party 'flight cancellation/interruption insurance' and who have been given a 'credit' by the airlines for a future flight. Some wanted a refund instead and turned to the insurance companies for that.
> 
> The insurers have stated that the coverage is for 'financial loss' and there is no such loss if you get a voucher for a future flight. That applies to flights booked before the virus and so it is not hard to know what to expect for any future flight someone might book today.


I guess those folks will have to return to their insurers when the airline giving the 'credit' goes under and the credit has become worthless. That I would consider a 'financial loss'. They should not have long to wait in many cases.


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## Longtimeago

Mukhang pera said:


> I guess those folks will have to return to their insurers when the airline giving the 'credit' goes under and the credit has become worthless. That I would consider a 'financial loss'. They should not have long to wait in many cases.


Yes, that may work out for some of them Mukhang pera. 

I do not like to pay in advance for any travel related item. I will not pay for a hotel in advance for example. It has always annoyed me that airlines now all insist on payment in advance. I can actually remember when this was NOT the case. In fact, I can even remember when Air Canada offered, 'fly now, pay later' tickets. There are still a few options but none worthwhile.




__





How to Use Book Now Pay Later Flights for 2019 | Skyscanner US


Learn which airlines offer book now, pay later options and how the process works when you use PayPal, and learn about such things as grace periods for paying.




www.skyscanner.com





The only real way to avoid paying in advance these days is to book a flight on the day of departure.


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## Mukhang pera

[QUOTE="Longtimeago, post: 2089030, member: 349718"

The only real way to avoid paying in advance these days is to book a flight on the day of departure.
[/QUOTE]

Even then, my experience has been in recent years, in various parts of the world, you still must pay in advance to be assured you'll get on. For example, if you call at 10 a.m. and say to the airline that you want a seat on the 2 p.m. flight to Oxdrift, the airline will not hold a seat for you until you show up with cash in hand at boarding time. You will be required to pay with a credit card to get a confirmed booking. At least, that has been my experience. At the same time, I must say it has never occurred to me to resist paying in advance on the day of travel. But I suspect that if I told the airline that I'll wait to pay until I get to the ticket counter, I'll be told my reservation won't be guaranteed. And I am not sure I would consider the airline to be behaving badly in that circumstance.


----------



## Longtimeago

Mukhang pera said:


> [QUOTE="Longtimeago, post: 2089030, member: 349718"
> 
> The only real way to avoid paying in advance these days is to book a flight on the day of departure.


Even then, my experience has been in recent years, in various parts of the world, you still must pay in advance to be assured you'll get on. For example, if you call at 10 a.m. and say to the airline that you want a seat on the 2 p.m. flight to Oxdrift, the airline will not hold a seat for you until you show up with cash in hand at boarding time. You will be required to pay with a credit card to get a confirmed booking. At least, that has been my experience. At the same time, I must say it has never occurred to me to resist paying in advance on the day of travel. But I suspect that if I told the airline that I'll wait to pay until I get to the ticket counter, I'll be told my reservation won't be guaranteed. And I am not sure I would consider the airline to be behaving badly in that circumstance.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I suppose I should have written show up at the airport and then book and pay for a seat on the next flight leaving for Oxdrift. ie. in the next 14 minutes or so.

I don' think the airline would even register a booking on their computer if you did not pay at time of booking. I wonder what they would say if you called and said, 'any seats on your 2pm flight to Oxbrift? Yes, OK, reserve one for me and I will pay cash when I get to the airport.' Probably can't be done these days.

Not all progress is in fact progress.


----------



## Longtimeago

This article raises some interesting points re future travel. Things we might not tend to think about in terms of the effects and who and how they will be affected.








Travel will never be the same, thanks to COVID-19 - National | Globalnews.ca


Someday, we'll refer to the moment in 2020 when travel changed from what we once knew due to coronavirus, but we have to get through it first.




globalnews.ca





I see the Air Canada 20,000 layoffs as a clear indication of what they expect to happen in terms of travel for the next few years. I don't think a lot of people realize just how impacted travel is going to be for a few years. When we read that cruise bookings are up 600%, those people obviously think it is going to be 'back to normal' sometime soon.

Another lay off that indicates what we can expect is the Vancouver Airport layoff of 25% of their workforce based on what they expect to happen over the next 3 years.








Layoff notices issued at Vancouver Airport as air travel expected to decline over next 3 years | Globalnews.ca


A workforce that was geared for an airport handling 26 million passengers a year is being reduced to handle the now expected eight to 15 million passengers per year, over the next three years.




globalnews.ca





I also think that as some countries ease up on travel, some are tightening up on visitors who arrive. The UK is announcing a 14 day quarantine period for all international travellers arriving in the country and that includes almost all business travellers as well as tourists.








Why the UK's New 14-Day Quarantine Rule Is Particularly Troubling to Business Travel Managers


On Sunday, the UK became one of the latest countries to announce quarantine measures, with airlines issued an advance warning of a 14-day period.




skift.com




So just because an airline will let someone book a seat on a flight doesn't mean it will make any sense to do so.


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## Longtimeago

How about this approach as a 'new normal' for travellers.








Vienna Airport to Offer $200 Coronavirus Tests to Bypass Quarantines


Vienna Airport will offer onsite coronavirus testing from Monday to enable passengers entering Austria to avoid having to be quarantined for 14 days.




skift.com


----------



## Longtimeago

Some latest news on future travel.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/airlines-air-canada-travel-advisory-covid-19-1.5578657



Some interesting questions and answers here:




__





CityNews







www.citynews1130.com





This provides an interesting read from Rick Steves.




__





September Travel News







www.ricksteves.com


----------



## ian

We do not have enough information to even begin making travel plans. I suspect that we will not be going anywhere until next spring but who really knows. Things are getting better but some health experts are expecting a second wave of the virus in the September time frame. So we are not making any plans nor are we giving dime one to any travel provider until we are comfortable. Nor do we know what travel vendors will even be in business by the time this shakes out. 

Like most people we will sit tight, stay safe, ignore the politicians, ignore the media hype, and wait this thing out. Not much else we can do. We do not see much point in speculation given that this is an entirely new challenge for all of us.


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## Longtimeago

ian said:


> We do not have enough information to even begin making travel plans. I suspect that we will not be going anywhere until next spring but who really knows. Things are getting better but some health experts are expecting a second wave of the virus in the September time frame. So we are not making any plans nor are we giving dime one to any travel provider until we are comfortable. Nor do we know what travel vendors will even be in business by the time this shakes out.
> 
> Like most people we will sit tight, stay safe, ignore the politicians, ignore the media hype, and wait this thing out. Not much else we can do. We do not see much point in speculation given that this is an entirely new challenge for all of us.


It's a good point about what travel vendors will even be in business ian. Hertz has filed for bankruptcy.








Hertz Files For Bankruptcy After 16,000 Employees Were Let Go And CEO Made Over $9 Million


After 100 years in business, Hertz filed for bankruptcy on Friday. While Covid-19 has had an impact on the car-rental company, Hertz had been suffering long before the pandemic.




www.forbes.com





Not all their problems are related to Covid19 but it was obviously the straw that broke the camel's back. There may well be many other travel related businesses that we tend to think of as 'big and solid', who will also be gone in the next couple of years.

I think your guesstimate of next spring for travel may be optomistic unless you change your outlook on risk aversion or we have a vaccine.

One funny thing is that there are in fact safe places to go where there are zero cases and even in some cases have never had a single case since day one. The risk is actually to those living there if they allow tourism, not to the tourist going there. If we had a 'beam me up Scotty' mode of transport, I'd risk going to some of those places right now. It would in fact reduce our risk vs. staying where where we are!


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## Longtimeago

Well I suppose I have to admire Air Canada for trying. But that's all I will be doing.

I got an e-mail from them today linking to this:








Travel Ready hub | Air Canada


Everything you need to know about entry requirements, testing locations, flexible change and cancellation policies, service offering changes, biosafety measures, and more.




www.aircanada.com





So they are trying to get people to book by saying they are upgrading their cleaning and if you book and later decide to cancel they will give you a voucher that doesn't expire. They will NOT however give you a refund. 

So they may get some suckers who will optimistically book and then only realize later on that it still isn't time to be flying anywhere if you don't have to.

Consensus seems to be that in the near future the airlines will be offering low prices to try and get bookings but in the longer term prices will rise to make up for having to fly with emptier planes.


----------



## ian

The airline schedules three months to a year out are far from solid. They may show 10 flights a day from x to y. You may make a reservation on the flight that you prefer. But, as the date approaches, the airline may well consolidate that schedule down to 3, 4, whatever. You are somewhat caught. You may get a refund but flight costs have increased. So you just may have to take that flight change. It may no longer be a direct flight or at a time of your preference. Let alone the seat preference that you may have already paid for!


----------



## Mukhang pera

Longtimeago said:


> Well I suppose I have to admire Air Canada for trying. But that's all I will be doing.
> 
> I got an e-mail from them today linking to this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Travel Ready hub | Air Canada
> 
> 
> Everything you need to know about entry requirements, testing locations, flexible change and cancellation policies, service offering changes, biosafety measures, and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aircanada.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So they are trying to get people to book by saying they are upgrading their cleaning and if you book and later decide to cancel they will give you a voucher that doesn't expire. They will NOT however give you a refund.
> 
> So they may get some suckers who will optimistically book and then only realize later on that it still isn't time to be flying anywhere if you don't have to.
> 
> Consensus seems to be that in the near future the airlines will be offering low prices to try and get bookings but in the longer term prices will rise to make up for having to fly with emptier planes.


I think those non-expiring vouchers will be unlikely to survive a bankruptcy. Most airlines will be gone within a few years. I still predict no workable vaccine, ever, and there will always be a "second wave", then a third, etc. So international travel will be largely a quaint relic, relegated to the dustbin of history. 

As for "emptier planes", I think President Emirates says it well. Ain't gonna' fly:









Safe distancing on aircraft won’t fly, says Emirates’ Clark | TTG Asia


Social distancing on airplanes is not a sustainable option, and to attempt it would be an exercise in futility, according to Emirates Airlines’ president.




www.ttgasia.com


----------



## ian

When we are in Europe or Asia we often fly on the low cost carriers. They seem to fly to many places that the nationals do not. We anticipate that some of them will be gone by the time of our next trip. And....either those destinations will disappear from flight schedules, flight offerings will be greatly decreased, and the fares substantially increased. In Greece last fall we we had several flights that were as little as $25-35 CAD for an hour of flight. Same in SE Asia and Australia (with jetstar) for the previous five winters.

No way we plan to book flights on any airline at the moment and when we do it certainly won't be more than 30 days in advance....probably more like 10-14.


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## Longtimeago

There is no doubt that air travel is going to be changed forever after this. The one good thought my wife and I have is that if we never get to fly somewhere again, we have had more than our fair share of travel to distant parts in the past.

I think of someone who was near to retirement when the virus arrived and who had big plans for travel in their retirement. Perhaps having never done much travel in the past but anticipating doing a lot in their future. Those plans and dreams may never be realized now.

We don't want to never be able to travel again but if that is what is, at least we have our memories of past travel.


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## Longtimeago

So now Westjet and Air Canada have both announced that starting July 1, they will no longer be keeping middle seats empty to provide some distancing. Money trumps health once again.








Air Canada, WestJet to drop physical distancing policies as air travel ticks up


The country's two largest airlines are ending their on-board seat distancing policies starting July 1, raising health concerns amid a pandemic that has devastated the travel industry.




www.cp24.com





Argue as they will that they are taking all kinds of measures to insure our safety, the reality is that if you are seated right next to another person for hours on end, your risk is increased. There is no way to deny that reality and yet they sure are trying to do so.

I understand why they are making this decision, the reality is they simply cannot fly a plane with even 1/3rd less passengers and hope to make a profit. So their choice is don't fly or have the passengers take an increase in risk however small or large that risk turns out to be.

But I do somewhat resent them trying to say it will be safe. Just once I would like to see a company tell the truth about what they are doing and why. Imagine them issuing a statement saying, 'we can't fly without making a profit so we are asking you to accept an increase in risk to your safety if you want to fly. It's your choice to make.'

In other news related to this, the EU is preparing to put out a list of countries they are going to open up to visitors from. Canada is likely to be included on that list. This raises some interesting questions for the Canadian who wants to travel and is willing to take the risks of doing so.








EU holds off on deciding final country 'safe list' for travel, Americans set to be excluded


European Union countries failed to settle on Friday on a final "safe list" of countries whose residents could travel to the bloc from July, with the United States, Brazil and Russia set to be excluded.




www.cnbc.com





Will you be able to get travel insurance that covers Covid-19?
What rules will apply re quarantine, etc. for the country/ies you wish to visit?
Currently, on your return to Canada you would need to quarantine for 14 days. Will that rule remain in place or will our government change it for those returning from EU countries?


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> I understand why they are making this decision, the reality is they simply cannot fly a plane with even 1/3rd less passengers and hope to make a profit.


I'm sure there is some highly complex math they could use to figure out seat cost for a plane that is only 2/3 full.


----------



## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> I'm sure there is some highly complex math they could use to figure out seat cost for a plane that is only 2/3 full.


Yes, off course they could but the result would be a price that not many would be willing to pay. So that would just result in them going out of business in the end as well.

They really have no choice. Don't fly or ask the passenger to accept the risk. Oh no wait a minute, they aren't asking us to accept the risk, they're trying to tell us they've got the risk covered for us. Believe that and I'll tell you about a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell to you.


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## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> Yes, off course they could but the result would be a price that not many would be willing to pay. So that would just result in them going out of business in the end as well.


Not so sure that would be the case, I mean look at the prices discount airlines were charging (pre-pandemic) compared to regular airlines ... super cheap. Even regular airlines were not that expensive so I don't think a moderate rise in prices would kill them. But of course they'll make more money on a full plane and if the health regulations let them, why wouldn't they do it.


----------



## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> Not so sure that would be the case, I mean look at the prices discount airlines were charging (pre-pandemic) compared to regular airlines ... super cheap. Even regular airlines were not that expensive so I don't think a moderate rise in prices would kill them. But of course they'll make more money on a full plane and if the health regulations let them, why wouldn't they do it.


The key there is your use of the word 'moderate'. Simple math would tell you if you reduce your seats by 33% then you would need to increase prices by 33%. Do you consider a 33% rise in prices as being 'moderate'? I doubt most would agree with that.


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> The key there is your use of the word 'moderate'. Simple math would tell you if you reduce your seats by 33% then you would need to increase prices by 33%. Do you consider a 33% rise in prices as being 'moderate'? I doubt most would agree with that.


In some cases yes ... Last cheap flight I booked (swoop) was close to $100 each way so changing it to $133 each way would not be a problem.

Add: Even booking a westjet flight at $300 going to say $400 is not likely going to stop someone from flying.


----------



## ian

We are watching the numbers. Looking at meeting up with UK travel friends in Crete. We can fly direct to Athens and ferry hop down. They are doing the same. If not fall, then spring. Could also be Morocco. One thing for certain, we will not be buying any air until the week we decide and depart. Very iffy at this point in time. Spouse is skeptical-especially on the Morocco part.


----------



## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> In some cases yes ... Last cheap flight I booked (swoop) was close to $100 each way so changing it to $133 each way would not be a problem.


Try booking a flight to Europe for $100 cainvest. You are thinking in small terms, I think in bigger terms.

A typical flight to Switzerland for my wife and I runs $3000+ for both of us. Change that to $4000 and see if it doesn't discourage some people.

Westjet and Air Canada aren't going to stay in business long if all they have is people booking $100 flights.


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> Try booking a flight to Europe for $100 cainvest. You are thinking in small terms, I think in bigger terms.
> 
> A typical flight to Switzerland for my wife and I runs $3000+ for both of us. Change that to $4000 and see if it doesn't discourage some people.
> 
> Westjet and Air Canada aren't going to stay in business long if all they have is people booking $100 flights.


Of course the price will different for europe and if you're really concerned about that price, fly economy class!


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## james4beach

I've been doing my small part ... since COVID, I've spent about $1500 on AC airfares.

That's domestic, only between two safe provinces. I would not fly anywhere else for the foreseeable future.


----------



## newfoundlander61

Usually head back to Newfoundland for 3 weeks or so but that is not likely this year. There is some talk about maybe letting some other visitors in later in July but I am not counting on that happening. Maybe people that own property IE: seasonal residences but that may be about it at the beginning. Of course this may not happen at all.


----------



## Plugging Along

We had our three trips planned this year, two with extended family and one for a big anniversary, all three Ver seas. All are cancelled, and we won’t even begin to think about planning until this is more settled. 

I do think plane travel will be changed as we know it with fairs either increasing and/or airlines closing. The idea of the cheap fair will be much rarer. Business travel will be reduced which was a major component of others having cheaper fairs. We normally run in person workshops with 4-6 consultants flying in from various parts of Canada/US, I just ran the workshop virtually. It was harder than in person, but then when we calculated the savings of the travel expenses and in person expenses it was about $30-40k. Our CEO friend normally makes Over 100 flights a year has been doing everything virtually. He has no intention of flying between the four offices for a while and doesn’t expect his staff too either. 

Without these business flights keeping the airline going, the cost will need to be distributed to the more casual flyer. I don’t think it’s going to be a 33% increase on a discount fair, it will more likely be a 50% increase on more ‘normal’ price fairs. 

There are still two large international trips I wanted to take my kids before they leave home for school (about 4 years). I hope we can do at least one of them. We had budgeted $50k for each but now we think it will be a lot more and have started to put aside more for that. I doubt most people would plan that fair ahead and be willing to pay that much. Family travel is already expensive.


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## james4beach

Another possibility is that we could get widespread deflation. There's already a significant drop in economic activity and we might get a drop in other things, such as housing, goods & services.

With broad deflation, it's possible that ticket prices won't go up. No way to know at the moment as these are broad economic themes, and nobody knows how this will play out.


----------



## Longtimeago

While airfares are one factor to be considered, there are others that are just as important.

Will you travel if you cannot get medical coverage for Covid-19? Having to pay for your hospitalization in a foreign country can be very costly.

Will Canada lift the quarantine on travellers including returning Canadians? If not, someone who has to work for a living will face another 2 weeks off work in quarantine. How much vacation time can they take or afford?

I also agree with Plugging Along that business travel subsidizes vacation travel to a large extent and there may well be less of that as people have now found they can cope quite well virtually.


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## ian

We are watching flights to Greece in Sept/Oct.

We did this last year. Doubt whether we will go this fall. Economy seats. Toronto-Athens return booked today is less expensive that it was when we shopped last year. Last year it was just under $1100. Booked today it would be $800-$1,000. We shopped this fare but decided to do an open jaw return from London because we were not exactly sure where we would end up by the time we were ready to come home.

The open jaw that we eventually booked was Toronto- Athens, London-Calgary. Same time of year Sept/Oct. Same airline...Transat. Last year the fare was $740. Booked today that fare is $860. Last year we booked in August for a Sept flight. We looked at the fare a few days prior to our departure last year and it was the same price. 

Who knows what the price will be if we go. And if we do go, we will probably not book until a week or so prior to departure. If not, perhaps the spring.

We have also been looking at Calgary-Bangkok return fares mid Jan-mid March. Fares at the present time, economy, are very much in line with the past several winters. Various carriers. $1050-1150. In prior years we have seem them as low a $800. They can be a little more volatile.

Then again....we could be doing staycations for the next 18-24 months. Who really knows at this point in time???


----------



## Longtimeago

ian said:


> We are watching flights to Greece in Sept/Oct.
> 
> We did this last year. Doubt whether we will go this fall. Economy seats. Toronto-Athens return booked today is less expensive that it was when we shopped last year. Last year it was just under $1100. Booked today it would be $805. We shopped this fare but decided to do an open jaw return from London because we were not exactly sure where we would end up.
> 
> The open jaw that we eventually booked was Toronto- Athens, London-Calgary. Same time of year Sept/Oct. Same airline...Transat. Last year the fare was $740. Booked today that fare is $860. Last year we booked in August for a Sept flight. We looked at the fare a few days prior to our departure last year and it was the same.
> 
> Who knows what the price will be if you go. And if we do go, we will probably not book until a week or so prior to departure. If not, perhaps the spring.
> 
> We have also been looking at Calgary-Bangkok return fares mid Jan-mid March. Fares at the present time, economy, are very much in line with the past several winters. Various carriers. $1050-1150


Greece has done very well in terms of containing the virus ian and as I have posted here before, in some places (islands) they have not even had one positive case since day one.

However, I would suggest you consider the other possibilities. Insurance and the ability to return home. Remember, when the pandemic struck and numbers started to climb, ALL flights by Air Transat and others, were suddenly cancelled with no alternatives offered. In the event of a second waver starting up, that could happen again.

Currently, it looks like if you fly from Canada to Athens, you will face a mandatory test and overnight stay in Athens until the test results come back. Then if you test negative you would be allowed to travel on to Crete but must then self-isolate for 7 days there. If you test positive, you will face mandatory quarantine for 14 days in Athens.








Greece Welcomes All Tourists June 15, But Here’s Why You Face Quarantine


The reopening date for all tourists to Greece has been brought forward–to June 15. But as Greece in the words of Prime Minister, Kyriakos Mitsotakis, gets set to "welcome the world", tourists from high-risk countries including the U.K. and U.S. face Covid-19 testing and up to two weeks quarantine.




www.forbes.com





Another factor to consider is what will you be doing when you get there? It will not be a question of everything is open and there being no restrictions.








The Greek plan to bring tourists back


Greece banks on its low coronavirus rate and a long list of new safety rules to lure visitors back to its tourism hotspots.




www.bbc.com




Somehow sitting on a beach with plexiglass screens all around me does not hold much appeal. Or if I think about Rhodes where I used to live, I cannot imagine somewhere like Lindos being allowed to operate as in the past, with narrow streets of tourist shops, bars and restaurants jammed with people. While bars and restaurants will be open, it will not be as before, distancing restrictions will still apply. Given their response to the virus so far, I would expect any outbreak would result in a quick shut down of the area.

If the plan is to get there and stay in a self-catering type of accommodation with little interaction with other people, then that might be OK, but as a past resident, I have to say that a big part of enjoying the Greek culture is the evenings spent in a restaurant/bar meeting other travellers and locals. I wouldn't want to visit Rhodes for example if I couldn't do that. When I think about what I would do if I were willing to go, pretty much everything would be very limited. It just wouldn't be the same at all.


----------



## ian

Both. Island hopping plus a week or two of self catering on Crete in a fairly remote area. We might also hop over to Cyprus for a week or two. Absolutely no interest in the likes of Rhodes, Santorini, Mykonos, etc. Too touristy and we prefer other less crowded islands. We have spent lots of time in Greece on past trips so we have a good idea of where we would go and what it would be like. We get feedback from a few locals who live there and from our UK friends who are frequent visitors and who have lots of contracts in Greece.

The overnight stay, or a few days longer is not an issue for us. We would stay in Glyfada. Less crowded. Easy access to the airport and to the ferries. Early days yet. If the fall does not work, just post Othodox Easter might.


----------



## Longtimeago

ian said:


> Both. Island hopping plus a week or two of self catering on Crete in a fairly remote area. We might also hop over to Cyprus for a week or two. Absolutely no interest in the likes of Rhodes, Santorini, Mykonos, etc. Too touristy and we prefer other less crowded islands. We have spent lots of time in Greece on past trips so we have a good idea of where we would go and what it would be like. We get feedback from a few locals who live there and from our UK friends who are frequent visitors and who have lots of contracts in Greece.
> 
> The overnight stay, or a few days longer is not an issue for us. We would stay in Glyfada. Less crowded. Easy access to the airport and to the ferries. Early days yet. If the fall does not work, just post Othodox Easter might.


My point ian is what will you be DOING wherever you are? I unashamedly will proclaim I love Greece and Greek culture and lifestyle. But when I think about if I were to visit in the near future at all, I really don't see how I would enjoy it. 

It's difficult to explain but I think perhaps the word 'atmosphere' sums it up. It simply wouldn't have that atmosphere this year. It can't when restrictions have to remain in place. I think about an example of an evening when a group of a dozen or so locals and visitors sit around having a drink before dinner in a bar owned by a friend of mine. Then after some discussion, a choice is made and we all go off to a restaurant, sit as a group at tables pushed together and plate after plate of 'mezes' is brought to be shared by all. There is an atmosphere that you enjoy that you could not get if you have to sit at separate tables, order only your own food, etc.

I might be able to do some 'touristy' things like visit an ancient site or whatever but I would not be able to enjoy Greek life in the way I have come to know it. I have the same thoughts when it comes to thinking of anywhere I might visit this year. It won't be the same and it will I'm pretty sure, be disappointing in that regard.


----------



## ian

If we make a decision to go I am confident that we will figure it out and have a good time. We are hardly going to hit the buy button if we do not feel that it is safe or that we will not enjoy it. This is not our first rodeo.


----------



## Longtimeago

ian said:


> If we make a decision to go I am confident that we will figure it out and have a good time. We are hardly going to hit the buy button if we do not feel that it is safe or that we will not enjoy it. This is not our first rodeo.


I understand that ian, I just don't see how the 'enjoy' part is going to work given current conditions. It's not much fun if you can't do the things you would normally want to do.

On another aspect, we are still under a travel advisory to 'avoid all unnecessary travel'. If that is still the case come September, will you be willing to ignore it? Also, what about insurance if it will not cover Covid?

I am still of the thinking that travel is just not going to be viable until we have a cure or a vaccine. There will continue to be restrictions that will keep me 'feeling it is not safe or enjoyable.'


----------



## Longtimeago

The EU has now finalized its first 15 country list that they advise their member countries they can allow travellers to entr from. It's an advisory and each member country is free to make their own decisions as to which of them they will accept travellers from and with what restrictions. 

At the same time, Canada has again extended the mandatory 14 day quarantine for all travellers entering Canada, including returning Canadians. The airlines will obviously not be happy with that decision.

I'm beginning to wonder just how many airlines worldwide will still exist say 2 years from now.


----------



## ian

Of course we will not ignore a health related advisory. We cut our Mexico winter escape short by one-two weeks in order to fly back to Canada on March 19. And we had no issue whatsoever with self isolation for 14 plus days. Our big surprise....there were empty seats on our direct flight home despite the Government warnings/advice. We thought that the flight would be sold out. 

As an aside, I agree about airlines and many other businesses. Which is why we would never book or pay for any travel product until we were on top of the date. Ditto for retail and restaurant gift certificates, pre loaded retailer cards, etc.


----------



## Longtimeago

Airbus has just announced 15,000 job cuts. They don't expect to be selling planes anytime soon obviously.

Air Canada says they expect it to take them 3 years to get back to near 'normal'. I think they are being pretty optimistic. A lot of people are not likely to fly no matter what the airlines say, until there is a cure or vaccine.

My older son has just told me that his office will not be re-opening until at least March 31. His employer had a lot of business related travel and that remains at zero. I think business travel will be far less no matter what happens after this.

Dr. Fauci has just said that if the USA keeps it up, they will hit 100,000 per DAY in new cases. There is no way that if they reach that rate, we will not get 'spillover' into Canada. There is certainly no way we could open the border, so no travel to there.


----------



## kcowan

We are cautiously planning our return from PV to Vcr in July. 
There are 3 choices and we will decide which is best for us.


----------



## Longtimeago

While the EU has now put out a list of countries including Canada that they will accept travellers from without quarantining them, they expect those countries to reciprocate. At present, Canada is not doing so, all travellers into Canada have to quarantine for 14 days. I really don't want to see Canada start changing that yet.


----------



## Longtimeago

kcowan said:


> We are cautiously planning our return from PV to Vcr in July.
> There are 3 choices and we will decide which is best for us.


Have you a plan in place to get directly from Vancouver airport to your home kcowan and a plan for how you will get groceries brought to you for your 14 day quarantine period?


----------



## kcowan

Yes fortunately we have friends staying in our place for free and they have volunteered to fill the larder before vacating. The people who have our car also offered to return it with it's back full. And other friends who also own in PV have offered as a backup.

Such crises bring out the best in people.


----------



## Longtimeago

And the worst. Go figure how a planeload of people thought they could travel from Colorado to Sardinia without any problems.


https://www.thelocal.it/20200703/treated-like-criminals-italian-police-turn-away-american-tourists-arriving-by-private-jet



They 'treated us like criminals' comment is hilarious.


----------



## ian

You are so right about friends and neighbours. 

When we let our neighbour know that we were returning early from our winter trip trip she bought groceries for us and filled the fridge. We are part of an HOA that has a fair number of people in their 70's and 80's. Different members have been taking care of the shopping for those who cannot get out or those who need something faster that can be provided by the on line grocery services. 

Likewise when we did venure out we asked our neighbours what we could pick up for them. And they did the same for us.


----------



## Longtimeago

A poll shows a majority of Canadians are not willing to fly yet.








Coronavirus: Majority of Canadians not comfortable flying since seat distancing axed, poll says - National | Globalnews.ca


Seventy-two per cent of Canadians surveyed by Leger and the Association for Canadian Studies say they're not comfortable flying since a decision by some airlines to relax their own in-flight physical distancing requirements.




globalnews.ca




Doing away with empty middle seats by Westjet and Air Canada has only increased our reluctance which is to be expected of course.

The airlines are hoping people will return to air travel but somehow I don't think as many will as the airlines hope will. Most people can see through the airlines attempts to say it is safe because they clean the planes and HEPA filter the air etc.

Travel will not be relatively safe again until we get an effective treatment or an effective vaccine.


----------



## Longtimeago

Air Transat have announced the cancellation of all their flights south out of western Canada for this winter.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-transat-cancel-flights-western-canada-1.5662967


----------



## Longtimeago

This would be funny in a way if it weren't so serious.








36 crew infected on Hurtigruten ship: Passengers disembarked, potentially exposing communities


Thirty-six crew members have tested positive for COVID-19 onboard Hurtigruten's MS Roald Amundsen, the first to sail internationally since the pandemic began.



www.usatoday.com





What I don't understand is how cruises are being allowed to start up. I understand that there are people stupid enough to book a cruise.


----------



## Eder

Well looks like I can still fly to Hawaii...https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/u-s-travel-restrictions-covid-19-land-border-fly-1.5607741
Leaving Oct 31 for the winter...yeehaw!


----------



## kcowan

Eder said:


> Well looks like I can still fly to Hawaii...https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/u-s-travel-restrictions-covid-19-land-border-fly-1.5607741
> Leaving Oct 31 for the winter...yeehaw!


How is the covid-19 there now?


----------



## Mukhang pera

I'll probably head out to the Philippines by December and stay a few months or so. Came back from there Dec. 10 last year and immediately regretted it. Had to put up with 2 months of cold rain.


----------



## Eder

kcowan said:


> How is the covid-19 there now?


They are experiencing 80-100 cases/day lately since opening up, like most places. Used to be 8-12 cases. Still not much of a threat and my wife & I agree it better than staying in frozen Canada. 
If you are thinking about it currently there is a mandatory 14 day quarantine but there are talks of changing to a recent Covid test (within 72 hours) as an entry requirement. Either option is fine by me as I could isolate in my boat but may be hard for other tourists if they only intend to stay a short time.


----------



## Longtimeago

Eder said:


> They are experiencing 80-100 cases/day lately since opening up, like most places. Used to be 8-12 cases. Still not much of a threat and my wife & I agree it better than staying in frozen Canada.
> If you are thinking about it currently there is a mandatory 14 day quarantine but there are talks of changing to a recent Covid test (within 72 hours) as an entry requirement. Either option is fine by me as I could isolate in my boat but may be hard for other tourists if they only intend to stay a short time.


I take it that you are comfortable with having no insurance in the event you get the virus.

I can see the advantages to being on your boat in warmer weather and yet still able to self-isolate quite easily. I have a friend currently on Lake Ontario and going ashore only for supplies once a week or so. He's in the Thousand Islands area and is just enjoying cruising up and down the area and anchoring in small island bays.


----------



## Eder

I have several friends on boats avoiding hubris in Hawaii...seems a pretty popular way to wait out the hysteria. Can't wait to join them.


----------



## james4beach

Woohoo!

Hawaii set to welcome Canadians without quarantine restrictions starting Sept. 1

So a vacation to Hawaii is back on the table. Fantastic.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Saw an article online the other day that said sales of RVs - trailers and motor homes - are through the roof. It seems a lot of people are still traveling but only if they can take their accommodations with them and avoid stopping in hotels, motels, and restaurants.








On the road again: RV sales spike as the summer of COVID-19 arrives


As lockdown measure continue to be slowly lifted across the country, many are looking for ways to plan a vacation safely. While airlines such as Air Canada have begun offering flights to certain destinations, those who are more reluctant on flying are hitting the road instead.



www.ctvnews.ca












Balking at cottage prices, millennials are driving RV sales


Historically, the Canadian RV market consisted of an older demographic, but around the 2009 recession a new trend emerged




financialpost.com


----------



## Longtimeago

james4beach said:


> Woohoo!
> 
> Hawaii set to welcome Canadians without quarantine restrictions starting Sept. 1
> 
> So a vacation to Hawaii is back on the table. Fantastic.


There are plenty of places accepting Canadian tourists already james4beach but that doesn't make it a good idea to go. You still face no medical coverage while there and a quarantine on your return. 








COVID-19 Hub | Air Canada


Everything you need to know about entry requirements, testing locations, flexible change and cancellation policies, service offering changes, biosafety measures, and more.




time-to-travel.ca


----------



## Longtimeago

I COULD travel to Switzerland right now to do some hiking but I won't. I would still have to risk the airports, a passenger seated beside me, a train to my final destination, other diners wherever I go to eat while there etc. and all with no medical insurance covering the virus. I just can't see it as worth that risk.


----------



## Eder

Why do you continue to say no insurance? Almost all carriers will insure for Covid. 




*If I have coverage that is still in effect, such as an annual add-on, will it provide coverage for COVID-19?*




The answer is yes. We will be extending our decision to provide coverage for COVID-19 to any policies that are still in effect, in addition to any policies purchased through our Early Bird. Therefore, if you purchased coverage during the 2019-20 travel season that has not yet expired your policy will provide coverage for COVID-19 subject to the policy terms and conditions.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Woohoo!
> 
> Hawaii set to welcome Canadians without quarantine restrictions starting Sept. 1
> 
> So a vacation to Hawaii is back on the table. Fantastic.


This article says that travel insurance coverage for C19 has been reinstated.


----------



## Longtimeago

Then I will stand somewhat corrected. I found this article.








Travel Insurance That Covers Covid-19 For 2022


The complete 2022 guide on Covid-19 travel insurance, including what providers offer coverage for trip cancellation, quarantines and more




www.traveloffpath.com





Although if you scroll down to the part covering Canadian travellers, it does not sound that straightforward. None of the 'usual suspect' insurers are mentioned. The first, SafetyWing only seems to cover to age 64. World Nomads will cover only AFTER Canada lifts it's 'essential travel' advisory and the third HeyMondo covers everywhere except the USA.

Medicap mentioned above seems to be a fourth possibility but again with conditions. I didn't read in detail but right up front they explain while they will cover even if the travel advisory is 'essential only', they will not cover if the advisory is 'avoid all travel' which means they will not cover any cruise travel.

So it would appear fair to say that SOME people may be able to get coverage for travel of some type to some places but not all people for all kinds of travel or to everywhere.

So I will revise my comment from now on regarding insurance to, 'you MAY or may not be able to get Covid coverage on your travel medical insurance.'

I would not agree however that 'almost all carriers will insure for covid'. A quick check shows no indication that RBC or CAA, two of Canadian travellers most purchased travel insurance providers will cover it.

I think we should all get on the same page when anyone anyone is talking about travel, insurance may or may not be available and should be checked BEFORE booking any travel.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> This article says that travel insurance coverage for C19 has been reinstated.


I'm curious, what does this mean? Wouldn't every travel insurance policy be different? I have read a few of these things and they are awfully inconsistent.

(To be clear though, I won't be flying anywhere -- even domestically -- until the middle seats empty up)


----------



## Money172375

One of my neighbours (83 years old, snowbird) was excited to tell me Today that he found Air Canada is flying to Orlando. Some people really hate the snow!


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I'm curious, what does this mean? Wouldn't every travel insurance policy be different? I have read a few of these things and they are awfully inconsistent.
> 
> (To be clear though, I won't be flying anywhere -- even domestically -- until the middle seats empty up)


Sorry, to be clear.....one company mentioned in the article says it has starting offering policies that cover covid related illness......with the obligatory list of conditions attached.


----------



## Longtimeago

Money172375 said:


> One of my neighbours (83 years old, snowbird) was excited to tell me Today that he found Air Canada is flying to Orlando. Some people really hate the snow!


You can find idiots anywhere Money172375, your neighbour simply happens to be one of them. Others are booking cruises which have already started and yup, already having covid outbreaks. 

How an 83 year old can possibly be watching the news and think going to Florida would be a good idea just boggles the mind.


----------



## Longtimeago

james4beach said:


> I'm curious, what does this mean? Wouldn't every travel insurance policy be different? I have read a few of these things and they are awfully inconsistent.
> 
> (To be clear though, I won't be flying anywhere -- even domestically -- until the middle seats empty up)


Then you may never fly again james4beach. I see no reason to think they will go back to empty middle seats. Besides, it really doesn't make that much difference. It may make you 'feel' safer but it really doesn't decrease risk to any real degree.

It is an effective vaccine and/or an effective treatment that will decrease the risk for us. I will not be flying until one or both of those is available. It's not just the flying itself that is the issue it is everything else that goes with it as long as we have no vaccine/cure for the virus.

I think a lot of people still don't realize that the way things are now in most places with 'Stage 3' is how the world is going to be until we get a vaccine or cure. There is no 'Stage 4' to re-opening until then.


----------



## ian

Availability of travel insurance that covers covid is certainly not a determinant of whether we will travel. Our health and well being comes first. Insurance is simply a backup. 

Far too early to determine when we will travel again. Initial vaccine testing has only just begun. No indication of it's effectiveness or the effectiveness and safety of other vaccines that will soon be gong into 3 month stage 3 evals. Same for effective drugs to combat covid. Could be a year, could be longer.


----------



## Longtimeago

I have seen indications from Dr. Tam and others that seem to be preparing us to accept that the 'new normal' is going to be ongoing for a very long time if not longer. There may never come a time when there is ZERO risk. It may be the best can hope for is reduced risk that we are prepared to accept.


----------



## Longtimeago

This has got to be the most comprehensive outline of travel conditions.









Coronavirus Outbreak: Should You Cancel a Trip to Europe?


Fodor's provides expert travel content worth exploring so you can dream up your next trip. The world is a weird and wonderful place—we want to show you around.



www.fodors.com





The titles says Europe but it covers all parts of the world.

Most if not all of the places posters in this forum have talked about are covered and some of the details are interesting. For example, visitors to the Turks and Caicos can expect "_Face coverings in public are mandatory (and recommended on the islands’ beaches, including the “World’s Best Beach,” Grace Bay Beach)."_

I'm not quite sure how to interpret that. 'In public' would indicate outdoors as well as indoors in my mind but then the 'recommended' on beaches' would seem to say it is not mandatory on beaches. Maybe mandatory when walking on streets or around wherever you were staying but you can have it off on a beach? I'm picturing the tan lines on people after 2 weeks of wearing a mask outdoors all the time. LOL


----------



## Longtimeago

Another example of what can happen when people travel while we are still in the midst of the pandemic.








Coronavirus: Thousands return to UK to beat France quarantine


Holidaymakers had just hours to return to the UK to avoid the 14-day self-isolation requirement.



www.bbc.com





When Canada changes the travel advisory and drops the quarantine requirement on return, the same scenario will be a possibility for us. You go away expecting to have a good time and return as scheduled. Then they change the rules while you are away.

Think about what's happening in the mind of some of those 160,000 Brit 'holidaymakers' who are currently in France. I'm glad I'm not one of them that's for sure.


----------



## ian

No plans this year but optimistic for next year. Long shot is late May/June for either Greece/Cyprus or Morocco. I have been looking at direct air fares from Canada. Very good prices. Unfortunately the chances of going are verrry slim and I would never book air until two weeks or less out. Prices and carriers could be very different then! If it is a no go, second choice is the same choices in Sept/Oct of next year.

I have to remain optimistic that there will be a satisfactory conclusion to this. Hoping for the best, prepared for the worst. And keeping my money in my pocket so to speak.


----------



## Money172375

Some countries are starting to offer insurance against covid related health costs as an incentive to visit.









Portugal Launches Travel Insurance for International Tourists, Amid COVID-19 - SchengenVisaInfo.com


Portugal has launched its travel insurance scheme for international tourists, amidst Coronavirus pandemic (COVID-19). The country’s latest initiative has been promoted by RNA Seguros de Assistência, and all interested persons can get detailed information online, SchengenVisaInfo.com reports...



www.schengenvisainfo.com


----------



## Longtimeago

Money172375 said:


> Some countries are starting to offer insurance against covid related health costs as an incentive to visit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Portugal Launches Travel Insurance for International Tourists, Amid COVID-19 - SchengenVisaInfo.com
> 
> 
> Portugal has launched its travel insurance scheme for international tourists, amidst Coronavirus pandemic (COVID-19). The country’s latest initiative has been promoted by RNA Seguros de Assistência, and all interested persons can get detailed information online, SchengenVisaInfo.com reports...
> 
> 
> 
> www.schengenvisainfo.com


That's fine until you think out the practicalities Money172375. What happens if you go to Portugal and contract Covid?

You will be told to quarantine for a start. The insurance will pay for the expenses of that but you will be in Portugal, not at home. How happy will you be with that when you are perhaps 'sick as a dog'? You will not be allowed on a plane to return to Canada remember.

If you need to be hospitalized, that will be in Portugal. Doctors will probably speak some English but otherwise, all your interactions in the hospital will likely be in Portugese. How to ask to be taken to the toilet or tell them you can't eat the food, etc. Minor issues can be very upsetting when you are ill as I am sure you know.

It's not just a case of being insured, it's more a case of what will happen to you if it happens when you are in that other country.

I think we need to keep in mind that anything a company such as an airline or tour company does as well as anything a country does, to encourage tourism right now is NOT about doing what is in the best interest of the tourist, it is in the best interest of the company or the country's economy.


----------



## Longtimeago

ian said:


> No plans this year but optimistic for next year. Long shot is late May/June for either Greece/Cyprus or Morocco. I have been looking at direct air fares from Canada. Very good prices. Unfortunately the chances of going are verrry slim and I would never book air until two weeks or less out. Prices and carriers could be very different then! If it is a no go, second choice is the same choices in Sept/Oct of next year.
> 
> I have to remain optimistic that there will be a satisfactory conclusion to this. Hoping for the best, prepared for the worst. And keeping my money in my pocket so to speak.


I can't see travelling before a vaccine and/or treatment is available ian and keep in mind that means available and widely taken up by the public, at BOTH ends of the trip. What do you guess the chances are of that being the case in Greece, Cyprus or Morocco by next May/June? I'd say next to no chance at all, not even a 'long shot'.

I'm crossing my fingers that we will be able to consider travel in 2022 but see no likelyhood at all before that.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Longtimeago said:


> I can't see travelling before a vaccine and/or treatment is available ian and keep in mind that means available and widely taken up by the public, at BOTH ends of the trip. What do you guess the chances are of that being the case in Greece, Cyprus or Morocco by next May/June? I'd say next to no chance at all, not even a 'long shot'.
> 
> I'm crossing my fingers that we will be able to consider travel in 2022 but see no likelyhood at all before that.


Where's the magic in the year 2022? I have to ask on just what basis can anyone believe there will be a vaccine that will be of practical benefit. If science can come up with that, it can cure the common cold. Never been done. Never will. But some placebos will probably be out there. 

People are simply refusing to accept the "new normal" that C-19 will always be with us. So, for most, that means no international travel. But then, that's recent anyway. I don't think a whole lot of gallivanting around the planet was occurring 100 years ago. All we are doing is returning to the old normal in that regard.

We will be some changes in that I think there will never be such a thing as a return classroom instruction in schools, universities, or places like that again. Restaurants will largely cease to exist and same for hotels and just about anything associated with the "tourist industry". But again, that's all fairly new anyway and we'll just have to get used to a return to the good old days. Not all bad.


----------



## Longtimeago

Mukhang pera said:


> Where's the magic in the year 2022? I have to ask on just what basis can anyone believe there will be a vaccine that will be of practical benefit. If science can come up with that, it can cure the common cold. Never been done. Never will. But some placebos will probably be out there.
> 
> People are simply refusing to accept the "new normal" that C-19 will always be with us. So, for most, that means no international travel. But then, that's recent anyway. I don't think a whole lot of gallivanting around the planet was occurring 100 years ago. All we are doing is returning to the old normal in that regard.
> 
> We will be some changes in that I think there will never be such a thing as a return classroom instruction in schools, universities, or places like that again. Restaurants will largely cease to exist and same for hotels and just about anything associated with the "tourist industry". But again, that's all fairly new anyway and we'll just have to get used to a return to the good old days. Not all bad.


There's no magic to 2022, I just think we MIGHT be in a position where we consider the risk acceptable at that point in time. We could as easily be in the midst of an even bigger wave as well. But 'hope springs eternal'.

If we never get to travel again, at least we have all our memories to look back on. On another thread the topic of 'Bucket Lists' was raised. So much for those who have held back on doing things they wanted to do, expecting to do them later and have just put them on their Bucket List. They will have no memories to look back on.

I feel a bit sorry for people who have just retired or were just about to retire and had all these wonderful plans to travel the world after they retired. I guess they will just have to be content with travelling around a golf course or something.

Meanwhile in a cunning effort to encourage the return of tourism, a Swiss chocolate company has started snowing chocolate powder in their neighbourhood.








Malfunction at Swiss chocolate factory sends out plume of cocoa 'snow'


Fine particles dust the ground around Lindt & Spruengli factory in town of Olten after ventilation defect




www.theguardian.com





There are a lot of chocolate lovers out there who are probably trying to figure out how to get there, right now.


----------



## Longtimeago

Maybe it's time to consider 'virtual travel' with the new Micorosoft Flight Simulator that just came out for XBox.





You can visit the whole world with you at the controls of your choice of planes to fly.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Longtimeago said:


> I feel a bit sorry for people who have just retired or were just about to retire and had all these wonderful plans to travel the world after they retired. I guess they will just have to be content with travelling around a golf course or something.


I am with you there. I have travelled a fair bit. I have never found it to be an imperative to get a stamp in my passport from every country in the world, which some seem to pursue for some kind of bragging rights. I have been to most (maybe not quite all) of the places I have been interested to visit, so if I can go abroad no more, I can take comfort in the fact that I got around quite a bit while the getting was good.

As long as some airlines remain in business, and fly to SE Asia, I will quite likely still fly to have some warm weather in winters. I'll probably take my chances on that score. I used to be able to enter the Philippines and, as the spouse of a Philippine citizen, get a 1-year "balikbayan" visa on entry. That was how I lived there for a few years awhile back. As long as I left the country once a year, I would get a new 1-year visa when I returned. Now, with C-19, that route has gone. It has become more formal and one must apply (as I have done) for what they call a non-quota immigrant visa under s. 13(a) of the Philippine Immigration Act.


----------



## Money172375

Mukhang pera said:


> Where's the magic in the year 2022? I have to ask on just what basis can anyone believe there will be a vaccine that will be of practical benefit. If science can come up with that, it can cure the common cold. Never been done. Never will. But some placebos will probably be out there.
> 
> People are simply refusing to accept the "new normal" that C-19 will always be with us. So, for most, that means no international travel. But then, that's recent anyway. I don't think a whole lot of gallivanting around the planet was occurring 100 years ago. All we are doing is returning to the old normal in that regard.
> 
> We will be some changes in that I think there will never be such a thing as a return classroom instruction in schools, universities, or places like that again. Restaurants will largely cease to exist and same for hotels and just about anything associated with the "tourist industry". But again, that's all fairly new anyway and we'll just have to get used to a return to the good old days. Not all bad.


school is Returning here in Ontario and outside of the hot zones, it’s almost normal. Masks and quadmesters are the two big changes. I suppose a bad second wave will end all that.

and IF covid is here to stay and becomes the new normal, then travel will still return. People will just accept risk and seek out areas with low rates of covid That allow entry. 

I think most people don’t know you can fly to the US. if they did, trust me, more people would be talking about travelling. Neighbours here are making Florida plans, and one leaves for Atlanta, via a connection through Detroit, out of Toronto tomorrow. i believe things will continue to ease as long as hospitals have capacity. I’m convinced a vaccine, or more likely better treatments, will continue to lower the risk over the next few years.

and if not, Canada is a great country with a LOT to see....hopefully they ease provincial borders out east soon. I’d love to go!


----------



## Longtimeago

Money172375 said:


> school is Returning here in Ontario and outside of the hot zones, it’s almost normal. Masks and quadmesters are the two big changes. I suppose a bad second wave will end all that.
> 
> and IF covid is here to stay and becomes the new normal, then travel will still return. People will just accept risk and seek out areas with low rates of covid That allow entry.
> 
> I think most people don’t know you can fly to the US. if they did, trust me, more people would be talking about travelling. Neighbours here are making Florida plans, and one leaves for Atlanta, via a connection through Detroit, out of Toronto tomorrow. i believe things will continue to ease as long as hospitals have capacity. I’m convinced a vaccine, or more likely better treatments, will continue to lower the risk over the next few years.
> 
> and if not, Canada is a great country with a LOT to see....hopefully they ease provincial borders out east soon. I’d love to go!


Canada has a population of roughly 35 million. Florida has a population of around 21 million. All of Canada has had a total of 124k known cases. Florida currently has had 500k. 

Now what idiot would want to go to Florida knowing they are about 5 times likelier to get the virus there at present?


----------



## Longtimeago

Mukhang pera said:


> I am with you there. I have travelled a fair bit. I have never found it to be an imperative to get a stamp in my passport from every country in the world, which some seem to pursue for some kind of bragging rights. I have been to most (maybe not quite all) of the places I have been interested to visit, so if I can go abroad no more, I can take comfort in the fact that I got around quite a bit while the getting was good.


Yes, so much for people with 'Bucket Lists' and their plans. Man plans and the gods laugh.


----------



## Longtimeago

Mukhang pera said:


> I am with you there. I have travelled a fair bit. I have never found it to be an imperative to get a stamp in my passport from every country in the world, which some seem to pursue for some kind of bragging rights.


You might get a kick out of this 'club' Mukhang pera, I do. To join you must state you have visited 100 countries. Most agree that there are 195 actual countries in the world, give or take on any given day. This club lists 329 they count as qualifying. Prince Edward Island qualifies as a country according to them for example. They also allow you to claim having 'visited' a country even if it was just a re-fueling stop in a plane and you never stepped foot off the plane. 




__





World Travel: The Passport to Peace Through Understanding® | The Travelers' Century Club®






travelerscenturyclub.org





Talk about wanting bragging rights and finding a way to do so by hook or by crook. LOL


----------



## Mukhang pera

Longtimeago said:


> You might get a kick out of this 'club' Mukhang pera, I do.
> ...
> Talk about wanting bragging rights and finding a way to do so by hook or by crook. LOL


You are right. Funny stuff. 

I have never really understood the point of bragging about # of countries visited. In fact, I think I'd keep quiet about it and not want to admit to such a superficial form of travel. I doubt many who have "visited" 100 countries or more have had much of a "visit" at all in any of them. I don't see the point of visiting a place unless allowed sufficient time to get some feel for it. For example, tours of Europe that promise so many countries in so many days, what's the point? Better to pick one and stay a few weeks. That's about the minimum. And if you land in a big city like Paris or Rome, you need that much time just to scratch the surface of that city, never mind the rest of the country.


----------



## Eder

I doubt one can properly explore all of Canada in one lifetime.


----------



## kcowan

Yes I have been in every part of Canada except The Yukon. On business, mostly. Never been to South America nor South Africa. LTA they are not on my bucket list!


----------



## Longtimeago

Whenever I have been talking to someone and the subject of travel has come up, I listen to where they talk about. Those that tell me only about popular beach tourist destinations. Those that tell me of 'tours' of cities like a 'See Europe, 8 countries in 10 days', they have been to. Those that tell me about a little village no one has ever heard of or a particular non-typical tourist experience they had.

That kind of sums up roughly the type of differences in travel that people do. They all travel, they are all tourists there for pleasure but the way they travel and potentially how much they get out of their travelling does differ. When someone visits an island in the sun and never leave the all-inclusive resort compound, they aren't really getting much out of being on that island in terms of learning or experiencing what that island is really like to live there etc. It's a visit to that island but it is it has to be said, a very superficial visit.

Doing a '9 countries in Europe in 14 days' tour whether with an organized tour or booked independently, really isn't visiting 9 countries in any meaningful way either. Again it is superficial. Some argue they are making best use of time by doing this etc. I say nonsense, they are seeing and doing very little in any of the places they stop and often spending about as much time moving from A to B as they actually spend IN places. That's not best use of time.

The travellers who I am most likely to want to listen to are those who tell me about a unique, impossible to replicate experience they had somewhere.


----------



## Gator13

If I can get everything organized, I might spend a night in one of our spare bedrooms on the September long weekend. 😉


----------



## Longtimeago

The airlines and public health officials continue to not advise people when they have been on a flight that had one or more passengers test positive for Covid.

In the first 2 weeks of this month, 55 flights had an infected passenger on board.








More planes land in Canada with COVID-19-infected passengers. Here's where the flights came from


Nearly two dozen more flights have landed at major airports in Canada with passengers infected with COVID-19.



toronto.ctvnews.ca





It is left up to the individual to self-isolate for 14 days as per the law and to find out for themselves if their flight home had an infected passenger. 

It seems to me the airlines and public health are 'sweeping it under the carpet' to the benefit of the airlines and the avoidance of informing the public.


----------



## Longtimeago

An e-mail from Air Canada linking to vacations they are offering right now, prompted me to look up the travel restrictions for the Dominican Republic where these vacations were being offered. Air Canada of course is not going to tell anyone about these restrictions.

The restriction that I found of interest is the curfew that is in place in most of the country. You would not be able to go out of your hotel between 7pm and 5am basically. Guess that means you are going to eat dinner there every night whether you like it or not. LOL









Coronavirus Information


Travel Alert: Get the latest travel alerts impacting Dominican Republic.




www.godominicanrepublic.com





Air Canada wants your money, the Dominican Republic wants your money but neither is explaining how you are supposed to enjoy your holiday given all the restrictions you have to deal with.


----------



## Money172375

Just sharing....not commenting on whether Or not it’s smart.....

$100,000 in coverage per person. 









Air Canada offers COVID-19 insurance for sun destinations at no extra cost to travellers


The coverage will apply to southern destinations like Mexico and the Caribbean




nationalpost.com


----------



## kcowan

Longtimeago said:


> An e-mail from Air Canada linking to vacations they are offering right now, prompted me to look up the travel restrictions for the Dominican Republic where these vacations were being offered. Air Canada of course is not going to tell anyone about these restrictions.
> 
> The restriction that I found of interest is the curfew that is in place in most of the country. You would not be able to go out of your hotel between 7pm and 5am basically. Guess that means you are going to eat dinner there every night whether you like it or not. LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus Information
> 
> 
> Travel Alert: Get the latest travel alerts impacting Dominican Republic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.godominicanrepublic.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air Canada wants your money, the Dominican Republic wants your money but neither is explaining how you are supposed to enjoy your holiday given all the restrictions you have to deal with.


My youngest son has been to the DR for a one week all inclusive. There were no restrictions but travel downtown was not recommended anytime. Now it is just prohibited at night. He went downtown and got the feeling of the place but had no desire to go back again.


----------



## Longtimeago

Money172375 said:


> Just sharing....not commenting on whether Or not it’s smart.....
> 
> $100,000 in coverage per person.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air Canada offers COVID-19 insurance for sun destinations at no extra cost to travellers
> 
> 
> The coverage will apply to southern destinations like Mexico and the Caribbean
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


Nothing new in that. Some countries are now offering free Covid coverage for tourists visiting their countries. When you think about it, there is something immoral in it. They are tempting people to risk their lives and the lives of others they come into contact with, in order to bring in business.









Canary Islands to insure tourists who catch virus


Spain's Canary Islands has taken out insurance to cover costs visitors face if they become infected with the coronavirus, the archipelago's regional government said Wednesday.




www.ctvnews.ca





Our government travel advisories as well as those of most other countries are still advising us to 'avoid non-essential travel' and yet here we have businesses and countries encouraging us to do the exact opposite. Disgusting..


----------



## Longtimeago

kcowan said:


> My youngest son has been to the DR for a one week all inclusive. There were no restrictions but travel downtown was not recommended anytime. Now it is just prohibited at night. He went downtown and got the feeling of the place but had no desire to go back again.


He's an idiot. I hope you told him so.


----------



## kcowan

This was a few years ago. Now it would be Air Canada taking him for a week at premium prices. He would be an idiot to go back now but I don't have to tell him.


----------



## Eder

Looks like United Airlines is setting the new standard...Wont be hard to book from Canada with them & connect in San Francisco to grab the required Covid test...









United Airlines to begin pre-travel COVID-19 testing pilot program in San Francisco for Hawaii-bound travelers


United Airlines, which brought more travelers to Hawaii than any other carrier pre-pandemic, on Oct. 15 will offer rapid COVID-19 tests to Hawaii-bound customers originating from San Francisco.




www.staradvertiser.com


----------



## Eder

Heres the test to be used...









Abbott Rolls Out New 15 Minute COVID-19 Test, with Tens of Millions Set for September Release, Ramping Up to 50 Million a Month in October


/PRNewswire/ -- ResearchAndMarkets.com published a new article on the COVID-19 Testing industry "Abbott Granted Emergency Use Authorization For New 15 Min...




www.prnewswire.com






Of course the test won't be available in Canada...better to wait in line for 4 hours & get results 5 days later.

Hawaiian Airlines has also joined and will preflight test Hawaiian bound passengers out of San Francisco and LAX.


----------



## Money172375

Test conducted by United Airlines and US Dept of Defense.....









Risk of COVID-19 exposure on planes 'virtually nonexistent' when masked, study shows


When masks are worn there is only a 0.003% chance particles from a passenger can enter the passenger's breathing space who is sitting beside them.




abcnews.go.com


----------



## kcowan

Money172375 said:


> Test conducted by United Airlines and US Dept of Defense.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Risk of COVID-19 exposure on planes 'virtually nonexistent' when masked, study shows
> 
> 
> When masks are worn there is only a 0.003% chance particles from a passenger can enter the passenger's breathing space who is sitting beside them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com


I wonder why they publish flights where they have discovered Covid-19 when the odds are so low?


----------



## Eder

There's no reason why anyone flying should not receive a 15 minute Covid test before being allowed on the plane. A concept lost on our government but being embraced by much of the world.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Esteemed member Longtimeago launched this thread a long time ago, but has lapsed into quiescence nigh on 3 weeks now, as near as I can tell. Departed on vacation perhaps? Under the weather with a touch of the dreaded C-19? I hope not. Should we dispatch the St. Bernard with a cask of brandy to revive the lad? Ask the Attorney General to investigate?


----------



## Retired Peasant

Members come and go. We haven't seen humble in over a year; a long time member.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Yes, RP, I have certainly seen that. If one looks back on any thread that's much more than a few years old, a lot of those posting were members of some duration, with many posts to their credit, but they have disappeared. Those are the ones I sometimes wonder about. Those that had a real presence here. There are a great many who join up, post for awhile, then go silent. Lots of those on all forums. Nothing to wonder about in those cases. It's the stalwarts who disappear that get me to thinking at times. I some cases, with a bit of reading, you can see why they left. Some tire of conflict with other members. Some seem to attract conflict and not all those that do handle it well. 

I kinda' miss HP, but she seemed to draw a lot of fire for reasons not altogether clear to me. I always respected her knowledge. She did not profess to be all-knowing, but when she saw fit to address an issue, she certainly seemed to know her stuff.

The rapid burnout of LTA struck me. A member for about 2 years, with a prolific 3,400+ posts to his credit, and then gone. Maybe not done. Maybe just in hiatus. I too take the occasional holiday away from cmf. In fact, not sure why I stick around. I share little investment style (or lifestyle) with anyone else here, and have little to contribute or to learn.


----------



## kcowan

I don't miss LTA because he would start arguments against his own strawmen and draw inferments were none were present. He never added value for me personally because everytime he relied on his experience, I had similar experience.

I also miss HP. She had a strong bias against rich white men but she was very knowledgeable on issues surrounding brokerages and trading.

I enjoy your contributions because they are always based on your own practical experiences, or quoted legal precedents.
BTWTFDIK?


----------



## Eder

Looks like at least Alberta will join the 21 century!

*Rapid testing arrives in YYC on November 2*

*Starting on November 2, Alberta residents and eligible international travellers arriving on a non-stop flight into Calgary can take a rapid test for COVID-19 and possibly reduce their mandatory quarantine to as little as 2 days with a negative test.* This includes guests who are connecting to airports within Alberta and essential foreign travellers staying within the province for at least 14 days after arrival.
The Government of Alberta and Government of Canada have agreed on a *26-week pilot project* that will make YYC the exclusive airport for Canada’s first quarantine reduction project that will allow testing to take place on arrival from all international destinations, to reduce quarantine to as little as 2 days from 14 days.
After taking the rapid test, guests must:

stay within Alberta after their arrival
enter quarantine until *test results are delivered in as little as 2 days*
If the results are negative, guests are no longer required to stay at home. If results are positive, the 14-day quarantine is still required.

commit to *submitting a second test* after 6-7 days for validation and data collection
provide daily check-ins
avoid large events and senior care facilities
wear a mask in public
**This pilot project may be restricted or broadened at any point as the Governments of Canada and Alberta evaluate through the trial.
Guests who do not participate in the pilot must adhere to the 14 day quarantine.


----------



## Eder

Well we flew to Hawaii yesterday...2 AC flights to get to LAX then a beautiful 777 to Honolulu. Planes were perhaps 25-30% full...easy to move seats...no reason to pay for seat selections. Airports were deserted....lines non existent other than the health check line in Honolulu. Fortunately our community of Ko Olinia set up a separate check booth similar to one dedicated to military people so instead of a 2 hour wait we breezed through in 5 minutes.

No food served or alcohol, just a few drinks. Hygenics in airport & the planes seemed stellar to me...hope they keep it up.

One interesting anecdote is that Transport Canada ban the use of M95 masks...they required a few passengers to replace theirs wit cheap paper ones.

Today is day 2 of my 14 day quarantine as Hawaii won't recognize Canadian Covid tests till about December 17th. We couldn't wait that long though.

Hawaii is doing very well with Covid...70 total cases yesterday and thats about average the last few months. Restaurants in our area are open but a lot of restrictions still.

Our neighbours here said vaccinations will start Dec 18th but most likely they will be waiting till March as they are not high risk.

If I stop posting in a week or so it means I died and made the wrong choice to come here for the winter.


----------



## Money172375

Eder said:


> Well we flew to Hawaii yesterday...2 AC flights to get to LAX then a beautiful 777 to Honolulu. Planes were perhaps 25-30% full...easy to move seats...no reason to pay for seat selections. Airports were deserted....lines non existent other than the health check line in Honolulu. Fortunately our community of Ko Olinia set up a separate check booth similar to one dedicated to military people so instead of a 2 hour wait we breezed through in 5 minutes.
> 
> No food served or alcohol, just a few drinks. Hygenics in airport & the planes seemed stellar to me...hope they keep it up.
> 
> One interesting anecdote is that Transport Canada ban the use of M95 masks...they required a few passengers to replace theirs wit cheap paper ones.
> 
> Today is day 2 of my 14 day quarantine as Hawaii won't recognize Canadian Covid tests till about December 17th. We couldn't wait that long though.
> 
> Hawaii is doing very well with Covid...70 total cases yesterday and thats about average the last few months. Restaurants in our area are open but a lot of restrictions still.
> 
> Our neighbours here said vaccinations will start Dec 18th but most likely they will be waiting till March as they are not high risk.
> 
> If I stop posting in a week or so it means I died and made the wrong choice to come here for the winter.


Where did your trip originate?

we had plans to go to Hawaii in 2021 for our anniversary. Tell me more about The Canadian covid test entry rules


----------



## Money172375

at what point do we start considering travelling again? Once vaccinated?

I think once travel resumes for the masses, prices may skyrocket based on pent-up demand......I’d like to get booked before that happens. 

when is normally a good time to go to Hawaii?


----------



## Eder

Any time is good to travel to Hawaii...the busiest season is normally July/August. WestJet & Air Canada are teaming with Travel Hawaii to allow Canadians to avoid quarantine but there has been no recent updates.
Initially it will be only flights from Calgary with the testing agency right in departures.









Hawaii International Pre-Travel Testing Partners


Last Updated: October 14, 2021, at 3:00 pm HSTInternational travelers from Japan, Canada, South Korea, Taiwan,…Applies to all* Air Passengers entering the United StatesOn January 12, 2021, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) announced it is expanding the requirement for a...




www.hawaii-guide.com





There are also several resorts beginning to offer no quarantine but you are not allowed off te resort.

We flew Kelowna-Vancouver-Honolulu...was very pleasant experience compared to travelling normal times.

Very important to fill out this form...will save a couple hours at airport...






State of Hawaii - Safe Travels







travel.hawaii.gov





Don't buy a ticket direct to Honolulu from Canadian carrier...so far they only sell the tickets, not a single Canadian plane has landed since March. Maybe that why that route is so cheap lol.


----------



## Eder

So no Covid yet...day 8 I should have had it by now so great success.

Obama was golfing on the course here yesterday...I know because my neighbour works there...said he was very pleasant guy but stiffed him for a tip. Damn democrats lol.

Also yesterday this 










The surfer didn't live.

Only 80 cases yesterday total...1.2 positivity rate...they seem to have Covid under control out here.


----------



## ian

We do not expect to get the vaccine until next summer. We are hoping to travel for two months in Sept/Oct. If not, perhaps next winter.


----------



## newfoundlander61

If my wife & I can get our vaccine or vaccines ( 1 shot each or 2 depending on which one will eventually be available) we would like to go to NFLD sometime mid summer or even late if possible. But this may or may not happen, alot of variables to play out with availability and distribution of the vaccine going forward. I haven't seen my NFLD family since Aug 2019. I live in Kingston, Ont.


----------



## kcowan

We flew to PV MX last Saturday, staying in our new condo. Have been out to outdoor restaurants that are nicely spaced and all staff masked. We avoid weekends owing to unmasked crowds. Feeling pretty safe...


----------



## Money172375

Are people finding good travel insurance? With who? What limits? Covid coverage included?


----------



## Eder

If you fly return with Air Canada Covid insurance is included for a trip of a few weeks. Most of the usual suspects like Medipac include Covid insurance.


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> If you fly return with Air Canada Covid insurance is included for a trip of a few weeks. Most of the usual suspects like Medipac include Covid insurance.


 ... getting the insurance (supposedly for free) isn't the problem. Getting the coverage paid / reimbursed is ... has anyone tested the fine print yet? 

For one, I can't see a snowbird getting paid for a cent upon contracting Covid if he/she has a pre-condition. Ie. better be super-healthy.

And then there's the potential vaccination passport requirement upcoming for travellers.


----------



## Eder

Others may disagree but in my opinion anyone that doesn't get a vaccine when available should stay home and never travel.


----------



## cainvest

Eder said:


> Others may disagree but in my opinion anyone that doesn't get a vaccine when available should stay home and never travel.


Might be a requirement for international travel in the near future. Whether it remains so for years ahead will depend on the worldwide cases. With the vaccines coming it may just be a year before covid-19 is gone for good, like SARS.


----------



## dubmac

I miss HP as well. Good heart. listened well, and always promoted using common sense in investing. Also offered to help me learn new ways to invest. I miss her voice and presence on this forum.


----------



## Money172375

We’re starting to research our next trip. anniversary celebration. Have decided we’ll go if we’re vaccinated, available medical insurance and the travel ban is lifted. will also consider # cases at our destination. Targeting October.
I saw some airlines are offering free cancellation if booked by end of feb.

if I’m reading it correctly, air Canada sells insurance for $59 that allows you to cancel up to 25 days before travel. Doesn’t that seem cheap?


----------



## newfoundlander61

If me and the misses get our vaccine shots we will be off for the rock for a while for sure.


----------



## Tostig

Money172375 said:


> We’re starting to research our next trip. anniversary celebration. Have decided we’ll go if we’re vaccinated, available medical insurance and the travel ban is lifted. will also consider # cases at our destination. Targeting October.
> I saw some airlines are offering free cancellation if booked by end of feb.
> 
> if I’m reading it correctly, air Canada sells insurance for $59 that allows you to cancel up to 25 days before travel. Doesn’t that seem cheap?


No wonder people are confused. Travel advisories against non-essential travel and apparently that includes visiting sick relatives are still in place, politicians have been outed and lose their positions for violating the advisories but the airlines are still free to offer really good deals.


----------



## Eder

Requiring politicians to lose their jobs even though they didn't break any law is a thinly disguised witch hunt. We all know where this comes from...today some of Neshi's guys were outed as going to Hawaii...guess what...no sanctioning...
I can speculate why not but that wouldn't politically incorrect.


----------



## nathan79

Eder said:


> Requiring politicians to lose their jobs even though they didn't break any law is a thinly disguised witch hunt. We all know where this comes from...today some of Neshi's guys were outed as going to Hawaii...guess what...no sanctioning...
> I can speculate why not but that wouldn't politically incorrect.


It's not about whether it's legal or not, it's a matter of ethics. Most normal people cancelled their travel plans because of the advisory to avoid non-essential travel. When they see politicians vacationing in Hawaii, it's like a slap in the face to people who actually heeded the advisory and stayed home

Funny how conservatives are all over Trudeau when he does something unethical, but when they're caught with their own pants down suddenly it's a witch hunt... lol.


----------



## Eder

I thought Neshi was a Liberal?


----------



## nathan79

Eder said:


> I thought Neshi was a Liberal?


Yes, but I understand it was just two of his staff who travelled. They should be reprimanded, but I think Provincial MLAs should be held to a slightly higher standard. I'm not saying they should lose their jobs necessarily, though.


----------



## kcowan2000

Walk the talk seems to be an illusive practice these days, especially as so-called guidelines seem to be constantly changing.


----------



## Plugging Along

I agree that the elected officials should not be leaving Canada and should be fired for showing poor judgement and leadership. I don't know if I agree that citizens/staff aka regular people that happen to work in the public sector should be held to the same standard as an elected official.


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> I agree that the elected officials should not be leaving Canada and should be fired for showing poor judgement and leadership. I don't know if I agree that citizens/staff aka regular people that happen to work in the public sector should be held to the same standard as an elected official.


 .. I think elected officials should definitely be FIRED for the lack of judgement or pretending to have a memory lapse - NO EXCUSE WHATSOEVER because it reflects the incompetency and the dishonesty of the "elected" official.

As for the non-elected officials - start with a demotion.

Here's the latest example of a high ranking public figure flouting the rules:

Member of Ontario’s COVID-19 advisory table booted from role after vacationing in Dominican over holidays

And hospital CEO (in ON) and a member of the Covid19 advisory table ... @#!$ unbelieveable.


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> .. I think elected officials should definitely be FIRED for the lack of judgement or pretending to have a memory lapse - NO EXCUSE WHATSOEVER because it reflects the incompetency and the dishonesty of the "elected" official.
> 
> As for the non-elected officials - start with a demotion.


ELECTED should most definitely be held to a higher accountability especially if it is there level (Federal and Provincial) that is making the policies (Municipal does make any policies or by laws regarding travel) 

It's the non-elected officials of Nenshi's that @Eder referred too. One is the Chief of Staff for the Mayor's office and the other is an admin assistant. I don't think either of them should be fired or demoted. They may work for the public sector, but should not be under the same scrutiny's especially at a municipal level. To me that would be saying any public sector employee should be fired for travelling out of the country. If we go that far, then you could say any person that does any work for the public sector (contractors, consultants). Then it could lead into any person in a leadership or senior position in a private company. 

Just thinking out loud and trying to draw some lines in my head. I do alot of work in governance and accountabilities, so this is an interesting one for me.


----------



## Retired Peasant

nathan79 said:


> It's not about whether it's legal or not, it's a matter of ethics. Most normal people cancelled their travel plans because of the advisory to avoid non-essential travel. When they see politicians vacationing in Hawaii, it's like a slap in the face to people who actually heeded the advisory and stayed home


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-make-a-wish-trip-cancelled-1.5861450


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> .. I think elected officials should definitely be FIRED for the lack of judgement or pretending to have a memory lapse - NO EXCUSE WHATSOEVER because it reflects the incompetency and the dishonesty of the "elected" official.
> 
> As for the non-elected officials - start with a demotion.
> 
> Here's the latest example of a high ranking public figure flouting the rules:
> 
> Member of Ontario’s COVID-19 advisory table booted from role after vacationing in Dominican over holidays
> 
> And hospital CEO (in ON) and a member of the Covid19 advisory table ... @#!$ unbelieveable.


 ... surprised? Nope.

Ontario doctor out as CEO of Niagara Health following Dominican Republic trip


----------



## Beaver101

Retired Peasant said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-make-a-wish-trip-cancelled-1.5861450


 ... I think we need to create an official Wall of Shame to keep up with these bozos.


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> ... I think we need to create an official Wall of Shame to keep up with these bozos.


I am against of "walls of shame' or this cancel culture. Sure, out these idiots and hold them responsible. It sounds like many of them outted themselves by posted social media pics of their lovely vacations and then sending a pre recording holiday greeting from their homes to stay safe. 

What I am seeing is that people are starting to go over the non election officials. First it starts with the senior position (non elected), whom was following orders, now in our news there is a jr administrator in one of the Councillors office, that I am sure the Coucillor barely there name, they are trying to out. Then I heard that some places are asking for records of any public employee who left the country. This is starting to go too far. Just my rant on these Wall of Shames and witch hunts.


----------



## Beaver101

^ A Wall of Shame from the "public" records or that from the news ... not asking for the task to go witchhunting / digging HR records for vacationing employees.

Since publication of such who-should-know-MUCH-better shamers aren't sufficient, then what do you suggest would work or would be an equitable solution other than a *pretentious* "Oh, I'm sorry. I should have known better. I had a memory lapse ..I regret it." Excuses, excuses, excuses. Are these officials / employees that uneducated?

Just imagine if you, yourself did this, what are the consequences for you ... a non-elected official? Or what "higher" standard(s) are they (officials) supposedly to be held? Or is it too much to ask that they be held at the "same" standards as everyone else? *NON-ESSENTIAL TRAVEL *during a "ongoing, gonna to get worst" pandemic *FOR EVERYONE. *

It's beginning to be unbelievably farcial with these bozos.


----------



## Plugging Along

^ I am okay with posting the list of Elected Officials that broke health orders (not just travel to be honest) as not only should they know better, they must lead by example. I think they should all be asked to resign. Again, that's our elected officials. They are at a higher standard

I think employees (not elected officials), Should be dealt with by the company policies. That applies for both public and private companies. I am seeing something different in my city, hence why I am posting. I am seeing that people want to know of the employees that may have gone away. This is NOT okay for me. The media has asked for EMPLOYEE records, and had been digging and found a 'Jr Admin assistant' that worked in the office of a Councillor. This is part I think is wrong, to lump the elected officials and their non elected staff together. That is what is happening in my area.

We agree that our elected officials should be held as a higher standard. Should non elected officials who work for them be on the same wall of shame?


----------



## Retired Peasant

I see a large part of the problem is that they say 'Please don't travel' , 'please stay home as much as possible', etc. It's always a request, not a law. Elected officials should be held to account; they are supposed to lead by example.
When people see them being hypocritical, why should the public comply with the 'requests'. I still can't fathom why airlines are flying everywhere, and indeed advertising vacations and flights.
Lockdown? as if


----------



## Eder

I think this entire thread derailment just shows how badly Covid restrictions are mentally affecting us.

"Burn Him!"


----------



## Beaver101

^ You mean "affecting" us? You haven't seen nothing yet ... Quebec is imposing a "curfew" and to "8 pm" only which will affect everyone there. It'll just be a matter of time that this restriction goes across Canada and then watch the night animals go really deranged.


----------



## Money172375

So my extended family wants to start booking the vacation we cancelled last May. 
they’re thinking about late December to Turks.

I thought I had saw packages that allow you to cancel up to 15 fore departure but don’t see that anymore.

we have a large group. 13-15 people. Approx 10 have travel credits. we all booked separately last year. We’re all under 50.

what would you be looking for before booking? Book hotel/flights separately? 

I think it’s a little too soon to be booking. I’d prefer to wait til the Spring To see what the vaccine rollout is like. 

the actual week of Xmas is already sold out.


----------



## Eder

I doubt the way Canada is going about vaccines that any flights will be resuming to vacation areas till next year. 

Airlines don't like refunding money, especially now that WestJet & Air Canada may end up in receivership due to new restrictions.


----------



## robfordlives

You don't believe leadership that all canadians who want vaccines will have by August.

Here's how you significantly reduce transmission
1)Mandate use of real masks. KN95 or N95 since no shortage now. Cloth/surgical are useless. Fauci (useless figurehead) now saying 2 masks are better than one. One KN95 is better than two useless ones
2)Send 2 million rapid tests out to all households each week. This does not cover all households but enough that it will cut hospitalizations. The companies that do this have capacity. Household all tests on one strip 2x per week....any positives and they quarantine for two weeks.

Leadership is absent


----------



## Money172375

robfordlives said:


> You don't believe leadership that all canadians who want vaccines will have by August.
> 
> Here's how you significantly reduce transmission
> 1)Mandate use of real masks. KN95 or N95 since no shortage now. Cloth/surgical are useless. Fauci (useless figurehead) now saying 2 masks are better than one. One KN95 is better than two useless ones
> 2)Send 2 million rapid tests out to all households each week. This does not cover all households but enough that it will cut hospitalizations. The companies that do this have capacity. Household all tests on one strip 2x per week....any positives and they quarantine for two weeks.
> 
> Leadership is absent


Doctors here on the news are against N95 use by the public. One even said he doesn’t wear one even when in contact with known Covid patients. He says N95 use is restricted to certain areas/procedures.


----------



## Eder

I agree with rapid test use. Seems a lot easier to get these out than bankrupt our economy more. Anyway this has nothing to do with travel...I'm glad I'll be taking the boat back to Canada...wont need to pay for those $2000 motel rooms JT is touting.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Doctors here on the news are against N95 use by the public. *One even said he doesn’t wear one even when in contact with known Covid patients*. He says N95 use is restricted to certain areas/procedures.


 ... basically your source of doctor(s) is discouraging the use of N95s because due to their scarcity as these masks are reserved primarily for inhospital uses - by surgeons and personnel in ICU units. Just like what Canada's chief health office Dr. T. Tam has and is still doing. 

So not sure exactly what that "one doctor" to claim he "doesn't wear one even when in contact with known Covid patients" ... unintentional irresponsibility?


----------



## Beaver101

🌌 Post moved to "so vaccines?..." thread.


----------



## Eder

Well isn't this the biggest joke ever...Canadians basically in jail if returning to Canada but the country's being sanctioned by no fly restrictions are exempt from Trudeaus new laws... can't make this up. Farm workers from Mexico waltz right in lol....you can pass go...do not pay $2000 dollars



*Travel restrictions won’t affect foreign workers: federal sources*


----------



## Beaver101

^ Indeed the joke is on vacationing Canadians during a pandemic based on your narrative. But the excerpt (quoted below) within the link explains the exception.

Besides, are you expecting these travellers (or how about their employers) to pay for their quarantine in a hotel/motel while waiting to work? Makes alot of sense, not.

Now if you have a qualm about such "workers" taking Canadian jobs away, that's a different story to rant about.



> ... Workers are deemed “essential” by the federal government and won’t be required to quarantine at an approved hotel as they await test results. Instead, they’ll be able to wait out their 14-day quarantine on-farm.


----------



## Eder

I guess my point is that if we actually are concerned about Covid variants the rules should apply to all. Since it doesn't it shows the new rule is to punish legitimate travellers to make those who haven't had the opportunity to travel feel better, and nothing to do with Covid.

It seems to be working.

(It is sad that unemployed Canadians don't take these jobs rather than importing Mexicans but thats off topic here.)


----------



## Plugging Along

Eder said:


> I guess my point is that if we actually are concerned about Covid variants the rules should apply to all. Since it doesn't it shows the new rule is to punish legitimate travellers to make those who haven't had the opportunity to travel feel better, and nothing to do with Covid.
> 
> It seems to be working.
> 
> (It is sad that unemployed Canadians don't take these jobs rather than importing Mexicans but thats off topic here.)


The rules are made based on the risk benefit. Otherwise, one can argue the easiest thing to do is have a COMPLETE lock down under emergency measure. Then you don't have any essential services and just let people die off. That doesn't make sense to me. 

There is a huge different between someone having to from mexico to work on a farm for an essential job and person how chooses to go on a warm vacation. Do you not see that? 
There were two cases of the new varient in Calgary two schools. They were brought in from a member of their household travelling and not for work. Was that travel really necessary? That's what they are trying to reduce. UNCESSARY things.


----------



## Eder

I'm sorry I don't see it at all. There should either be a clear travel ban or not. Either we allow travel or we don't, why make up half assed rules?

I guess I'm just pissed because a lot of people, mostly old retired folks will need to squat in a roach hotel rather than at home when they return. Seems like punishment rather than science.

I'm not being selfish here as the 3 day gulag won't apply to me on my return anyway.


----------



## Plugging Along

Eder said:


> I'm sorry I don't see it at all. There should either be a clear travel ban or not. Either we allow travel or we don't, why make up half assed rules?
> 
> I guess I'm just pissed because a lot of people, mostly old retired folks will need to squat in a roach hotel rather than at home when they return. Seems like punishment rather than science.
> 
> I'm not being selfish here as the 3 day gulag won't apply to me on my return anyway.


I have found policies and absolutes generally don't work. Why do you think tax laws are the way they are - for another time.

You could say there is an absolute travel ban. That would mean no one gets in or out. Once we brought everyone home in the first lock down, and you leave, you take the chance of not being allowed back in. In theory, I am find with closing the borders and doing this. However, upon more thought needs to be put in.

- Are there goods that need to come into the country. Canada's supply chain could not survive. Businesses could not survive, people couldn't survive. So here we have the first exception of essential services. Then you have to determine what is essential? In the above they are saying those that are working on farms are essential. If those workers are going back and forth for vacation, then I would say no. However, the link you provided indicates this is when they first arrive in Canada. 

- I am in full support for mandatory isolation when someone leaves the country. Other countries have had it, and it is under better control. Here, people don't follow orders and the rest of us suffer. If someone comes back and properly isolates at home, I would be okay with it, but many don't. If they go home and there is someone else that lives with them, then all of them should be forced to completed isolate for the 14 days. Some don't even know how to do it properly. So I think your travel is so important, than be prepared to isolate for 14 days.


----------



## Eder

The 14 day quarantine at home is not bad...I have completed it twice so far. I think arriving with a clean Covid test is even more important. I'm surprised that it took so long to become required. Those rules make sense and are easy to follow.

3 day gulag not so much...seems contrived,vindictive,and everyone knows most people don't need to do it when arriving, just the damn snowbirds...shame on them for following the rules.

At any rate a person smarter than me mentioned perhaps this 3 day thing has been implemented to prevent our kids from hitting up spring break activities...that might make a glimmer of sense.


----------



## sags

Returning travelers weren't self quarantining, so now they can't get out. Act like toddlers......get treated like toddlers.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Strikes me as a bit peculiar that we need to bring in 60,000 foreign workers this year.

Maybe fake news, but there have been a lot of stories in the past year about people in Canada whose jobs depend on tourism and travel, who work in restaurants, the "hospitality" industry, etc., being laid off. In that case, could they not be given farm work? Or is it better for the country to pay them CERB at $2,000 a month per head and to import 60,000 potential Covid carriers.

And what has Justin said about his plan to bring in 420,000 new immigrants this year. One month of 2021 is gone already. How many left to go on that 420,000? Are we now 1/12th of the way there? Are the taxpayers paying $2,000 a head to quarantine them at 5-star hotels, before they are let loose to start receiving CERB? And, of course, it would be undignified to ask them to serve a stint on a farm first.


----------



## m3s

Mukhang pera said:


> Maybe fake news, but there have been a lot of stories in the past year about people in Canada whose jobs depend on tourism and travel, who work in restaurants, the "hospitality" industry, etc., being laid off. In that case, could they not be given farm work? Or is it better for the country to pay them CERB at $2,000 a month per head and to import 60,000 potential Covid carriers.


Can you picture waitresses working on a farm though


----------



## nathan79

Mukhang pera said:


> Maybe fake news, but there have been a lot of stories in the past year about people in Canada whose jobs depend on tourism and travel, who work in restaurants, the "hospitality" industry, etc., being laid off. In that case, could they not be given farm work? Or is it better for the country to pay them CERB at $2,000 a month per head and to import 60,000 potential Covid carriers.


I believe the farms would have to raise wages if they wanted to hire Canadians. As it stands I think there is a loophole that allows them to pay below minimum wage. This setup works out because they also provide room and board for those foreign workers, so they have very low living expenses.

I suppose they could just raise the pay until they find enough Canadians willing to do the jobs, but people would complain when the cost of vegetables doubles.


----------



## Beaver101

Three international travellers slapped with $750 fine in Toronto for refusing COVID-19 test

Better late than never. Besides, what's C$750 versus the airfare these days.


----------



## Eder

Its wonderful the link shows a plane full of pseudo Canadians landing in Toronto from Wuhan last year as the virus takes hold. Sunny ways!


----------



## newfoundlander61

Beaver101 said:


> Three international travellers slapped with $750 fine in Toronto for refusing COVID-19 test
> 
> Better late than never. Besides, what's C$750 versus the airfare these days.


What they should if they refuse the test is put them back on a plane to where they came from.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Just as you came up with that suggestion, here're other alternatives being planned (link is behind paywall but you get the idea) ... 

Peeved Canadian snowbirds devising plans to avoid hotel-quarantine ‘jail’

I wonder if the road trips are that much cheaper and and can by-pass the quarantine hotel ... lol.


----------



## Money172375

I love how people spend months at a second home (either owned or rented) and complain about being on a fixed income. Give me a break. Snow birds have above average wealth. One report says 80% of Florida snowbirds own their Florida property!


----------



## Eder

Thanks for the link.

I wonder how much it will cost that guy to use Uber from Great Falls to the border? 

The other couple where the husband is a paraplegic should make great press during his lock down.


----------



## gibor365

2 weeks ago I almost booked AI resort in St. Lucia (one of the safest Covid countries), but good that I didn't book.... upon return to spend 3 days in Trudeau's hotel for 2K?! not too exciting ....


----------



## Money172375

Was the announced $2,000 for shock value or has it been officially announced as the fee?


----------



## Tostig

gibor365 said:


> 2 weeks ago I almost booked AI resort in St. Lucia (one of the safest Covid countries), but good that I didn't book.... upon return to spend 3 days in Trudeau's hotel for 2K?! not too exciting ....


Why in the world would you even consider planning a trip when travel advisories and international border restrictions have been in place since last May? Have you no idea what those advisories and closures were all about?


----------



## Money172375

Tostig said:


> Why in the world would you even consider planning a trip when travel advisories and international border restrictions have been in place since last May? Have you no idea what those advisories and closures were all about?


The answer you might get back is...”because I can”


----------



## gibor365

Tostig said:


> Why in the world would you even consider planning a trip when travel advisories and international border restrictions have been in place since last May? Have you no idea what those advisories and closures were all about?


Don't care about "travel advisories" ... it's all scam .... with Canada vaccination failure they can their advisories for couple of more years


----------



## gibor365

And those governments ate telling me about "travel advisories" ?! They can, but we cannot?!
*Growing list of Canadian politicians caught travelling abroad despite pandemic*









Growing list of Canadian politicians caught travelling abroad despite pandemic


Despite public health guidelines strongly discouraging international travel amidst the COVID-19 pandemic, several Canadian politicians were caught jet-setting across the world over the holidays.



www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> Its wonderful the link shows a plane full of pseudo Canadians landing in Toronto from Wuhan last year as the virus takes hold. Sunny ways!


Pseudo Canadians?


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Pseudo Canadians?


Why are you so surprised


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> And those governments ate telling me about "travel advisories" ?! They can, but we cannot?!
> *Growing list of Canadian politicians caught travelling abroad despite pandemic*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Growing list of Canadian politicians caught travelling abroad despite pandemic
> 
> 
> Despite public health guidelines strongly discouraging international travel amidst the COVID-19 pandemic, several Canadian politicians were caught jet-setting across the world over the holidays.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca


 .. that list is kinda of outdated (January 1, 2021) ... the fallouts have grown abit. The first one was probably best with Ford's message to his finance minister "get your backside home immediately" ... too polite ... LMAO!

Now if you don't mind your employer telling you the same thing - 'resign or we'll resign you' ... take your vacations outside the country. Your choice ... your right still.


----------



## gibor365

This is the list of Canadian politician who got CAUGHT! And who know how many didn't get caught...


----------



## Beaver101

^ Hey, politicians' expertise is lying ... and hoping not to get caught. So what's new? Do you want to be a politician?


----------



## gibor365

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Hey, politicians' expertise is lying ... and hoping not to get caught. So what's new? Do you want to be a politician?


No, I'm not politically correct


----------



## Eder

Looks like Trudeau is delaying implementation of locking up snowbirds on arrival in Canada

Hopefully JT crawls back into his hole & stays there till the grownups sort this out.


----------



## Mukhang pera




----------



## sags

LOL.........


----------



## milhouse

CBC article of a traveller flying into Pearson trying to forge his positive covid test to look like a negative result. 

If the story is accurate, it's likely this kind of crap that's forcing authority's hands to implement these stricter travel measures.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Always some idiot trying to game / skirt the systems ... and ruin it for everyone else.


----------



## agent99

Back to Travel Plans for this year.

We barely qualify for "this year". In process of booking a 3-month car trip to USA starting Dec 30th. We may be overly optimistic, but we are hoping border will be open by then, we will be fully vaccinated and that Covid levels at US destination have dropped to an acceptable level.

Back to travel medical insurance. Most on-line companies won't offer quotations that far ahead. I had to fake the dates. I am 81 and have some relatively minor medical issues. Coverme (Manulife) quoted $11,700 for 3 months! CAA $4700. These with $5000 deductible! Last year I paid $2300 at RBC with no deductible. Hoping that as time goes by, costs will revert closer to normal.


----------



## Retiredguy

We are hoping to head south to California in mid October.🤞
and also have booked a cruise out of Florida for January.


----------



## gibor365

Until anti constitutional order to stay 3 nights in refugee-type motel won't be canceled, we are not booking anything...


----------



## gibor365

Canadian Constitution Foundation in court today to stop federal quarantine hotels | Canadian Constitution Foundation







theccf.ca





curious when and what is going to be decision
Ok, found it....hopefully this craziness will be cancelled


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1373171375561670657


----------



## Eder

How this travesty was ever implemented should be investigated & people responsible should prosecuted.


----------



## Money172375

when do you think the mandatory quarantine will be over for travel? I don’t mean the hotel stays….I mean any sort of extended quarantine or self isolation. I want to travel this this year, but I don’t want to be locked at home for 1-2 weeks. 

do You think this may come to pass by fall/winter?


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> when do you think the mandatory quarantine will be over for travel? I don’t mean the hotel stays….I mean any sort of extended quarantine or self isolation. I want to travel this this year, but I don’t want to be locked at home for 1-2 weeks.
> 
> do You think this may come to pass by fall/winter?


I don't care to quarantine at home, but by no means in those "interim type quarantine hotels" ! Ghetto?! NEVER AGAIN!


----------



## andrewf

Money172375 said:


> when do you think the mandatory quarantine will be over for travel? I don’t mean the hotel stays….I mean any sort of extended quarantine or self isolation. I want to travel this this year, but I don’t want to be locked at home for 1-2 weeks.
> 
> do You think this may come to pass by fall/winter?


Maybe Fall? I think when most of the population is fully vaccinated and case numbers are low.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> Maybe Fall? I think when most of the population is fully vaccinated and case numbers are low.


 ...my guess when our government has decided if a vaccination passport is required for travelling (outside of the country).


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> I don't care to quarantine at home, but by no means in those "interim type quarantine hotels" ! Ghetto?! NEVER AGAIN!


 ... why are you screaming "NEVER AGAIN!" when you haven't even had to quarantine "at home", let alone a ghetto hotel? Talk about lies.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ...my guess when our government has decided if a vaccination passport is required for travelling (outside of the country).


Is a passport required to leave (go outside) the country?

Rather, I’d think it would be required for non-residents to ENTER a country.


----------



## damian13ster

Vaccine passport can't be required to leave the country. It also can't be required to enter the country that you are a citizen of.


----------



## andrewf

Beaver101 said:


> ... why are you screaming "NEVER AGAIN!" when you haven't even had to quarantine "at home", let alone a ghetto hotel? Talk about lies.


I think he's making reference to Jewish Ghettos pre-WWII.


----------



## milhouse

Money172375 said:


> when do you think the mandatory quarantine will be over for travel? I don’t mean the hotel stays….I mean any sort of extended quarantine or self isolation. I want to travel this this year, but I don’t want to be locked at home for 1-2 weeks.
> 
> do You think this may come to pass by fall/winter?


I'm currently thinking late August/September to implement a similar plan as the UK. By then, I'm optimistic that we'll be slightly ahead of schedule with many people having their second shot with corresponding lower case numbers.

Expecting green, amber, and red country assignments like in the UK where you won't have to quarantine/self isolate when returning from green countries but have to take pre and post flight tests, while you will still have to quarantine/self isolate for varying days and test from amber and red countries.


----------



## gibor365

My wife and daughter want to go to Niagara for long weekend for couple of nights.... Not sure what we can do there now.... Any suggestions?


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> My wife and daughter want to go to Niagara for long weekend for couple of nights.... Not sure what we can do there now.... Any suggestions?


Ummm, maybe go hiking? Attractions are all closed.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Ummm, maybe go hiking? Attractions are all closed.


I know  ... Anybody can advise about some nice hike in Niagara (Falls/Lake) region? We'd go bicycling , but we don't have them for everyone and now it's impossible to buy one ....


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Vaccine passport can't be required to leave the country. It also can't be required to enter the country that you are a citizen of.


 ... like the saying goes "never say never" as there is a "first for everything."


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> I know  ... Anybody can advise about some nice hike in Niagara (Falls/Lake) region? We'd go bicycling , but we don't have them for everyone and now it's impossible to buy one ....


Niagara Glen is nice. It is in the gorge downstream of the falls. There are stairs that take you from the parkway down to the riverside. I've done it several times.









Niagara Glen - Hiking Trails


The Niagara Glen offers hikers 4 km (2.5 mi) of rugged hiking trails that wind through this pristine pocket of Carolinian Forest




www.niagaraparks.com


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Niagara Glen is nice. It is in the gorge downstream of the falls. There are stairs that take you from the parkway down to the riverside. I've done it several times.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Niagara Glen - Hiking Trails
> 
> 
> The Niagara Glen offers hikers 4 km (2.5 mi) of rugged hiking trails that wind through this pristine pocket of Carolinian Forest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.niagaraparks.com


Thanks..... Will check it out.... But to tell the truth, I'm not so eager to go... day time we can walk on trails, but there is absolutely nothing to do in the evening... even all restaurants are closed


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> Vaccine passport can't be required to leave the country. It also can't be required to enter the country that you are a citizen of.


But other country may not allow you to enter if you don't have "Vaccine passport"... possible you won't be even allow to board plane . "Vaccine passport" maybe considered like a Visa


----------



## damian13ster

Yeah, definitely. A country that you are not a citizen of can not let you in for whatever arbitrary reason they choose.
A country you are citizen of can't not let you in though. Constitutional right.
Although in past year we did find out that Charter of Rights and Freedom is what government uses as toilet paper so who knows


----------



## Beaver101

For those who loves to travel, post Covid:

2 passengers test positive for COVID-19 on 1st North American cruise since 2020



> All adult passengers and crew had to show proof they were fully vaccinated.
> ByMina Kaji andGio Benitez 10 June 2021, 20:30 ....


 ... I wonder how the other passengers are feeling knowing this now.


----------



## sags

So much for testing and vaccinations......

_All crew and adult passengers on board the Celebrity Millennium had to show proof that they were fully vaccinated as well as provide a negative COVID-19 test prior to or at the time of boarding. _


----------



## damian13ster

Good


----------



## Tostig

I'm in no hurry to spend five hours in a sealed tube with people who may have lied about their vaccinations.


----------



## damian13ster

Tostig said:


> I'm in no hurry to spend five hours in a sealed tube with people who may have lied about their vaccinations.


You will lead a miserable life for next couple of decades then. 
Virus isn't going anywhere. It is never going to fully disappear. 
There will be variants, strains, catchy headlines every couple of months or so. Just get used to it.


----------



## :) lonewolf

long distance flight + vaccination = greater risk of blood clot


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> You will lead a miserable life for next couple of decades then.
> Virus isn't going anywhere. It is never going to fully disappear.
> There will be variants, strains, catchy headlines every couple of months or so. Just get used to it.


It would be miserable life for people like me and you , who used to travel several times per day.... I know plenty of people who never travelled abroad and they are fine with it


----------



## newfoundlander61

Me and the wife and both fully vaccinated so depending on what the atlantic provinces do with their reopening time tables we are hoping to head down later this summer. Worst case is if Nfld is able to open as currently planned on July 1st then we will just fly down from Toronto and rent a car for the trip. As for staying somewhere will check out an AirBnb, the last time we used one it was perfect but with COVID many may not be comfortable renting just yet.


----------



## MK7GTI

Tostig said:


> I'm in no hurry to spend five hours in a sealed tube with people who may have lied about their vaccinations.


If you are fully vaccinated why do you care if people lied?


----------



## kcowan

We have Ben fully-vaccinated since April, and we travel without hesitation. Our big European trip was rescheduled from 2020 to 2022 just to avoid hassle because it involves at least 5 countries.


----------



## hboy54

Hopefully heading to Nova Scotia in August to enjoy new to me sailboat. Surely we will be able to travel inside Canada by then given the projected vaccination graph.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Who is travelling with you on the sailboat? Any buffets there? I think your method of water-travelling is alot safer than the official "cruises" now running.


----------



## hboy54

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Who is travelling with you on the sailboat? Any buffets there? I think your method of water-travelling is alot safer than the official "cruises" now running.


No, I regret there are no buffets on board. My wife, friends and family on board hopefully.


----------



## gibor365

Me and my wife were also thinking to go to Maritimes in August (Caribbean and Europe will be too hot). What is in your opinion the most interesting Atlantic province (I mean scenery, hiking, swimming ...). Actually, PEI came to my attention...It's "capital" of oysters and I've read and was surprised that
_Often called the best *beach* in Canada, the Singing Sands in Basin Head Provincial Park is a nine-mile white sand *beach* with some of the *warmest water* in the province. In fact, the *beach* is said to have some of the *warmest waters north of Florida*,_
Is anybody travel in PEI? Any comments?


----------



## damian13ster

kcowan said:


> We have Ben fully-vaccinated since April, and we travel without hesitation. Our big European trip was rescheduled from 2020 to 2022 just to avoid hassle because it involves at least 5 countries.


European Union is opening up all travel July 1. Need negative test, proof of positive test at least 11 days ago, or vaccination proof.


----------



## Spudd

gibor365 said:


> Me and my wife were also thinking to go to Maritimes in August (Caribbean and Europe will be too hot). What is in your opinion the most interesting Atlantic province (I mean scenery, hiking, swimming ...). Actually, PEI came to my attention...It's "capital" of oysters and I've read and was surprised that
> _Often called the best *beach* in Canada, the Singing Sands in Basin Head Provincial Park is a nine-mile white sand *beach* with some of the *warmest water* in the province. In fact, the *beach* is said to have some of the *warmest waters north of Florida*,_
> Is anybody travel in PEI? Any comments?


I think Newfoundland is the most interesting, except for swimming. In summer you can see icebergs in the water off the coast, you can go whale watching (covid permitting, I guess). There is lots of great hiking and varied landscapes. 

We drove up to Battle Harbour, where there's an island off the coast that used to be a settlement, but the government stopped supporting it a long time ago so everyone moved away. You can stay in one of the old houses there and there are historical displays. 

We also enjoyed the Viking settlement at Anse-Aux-Meadows. 

After Newfoundland I liked New Brunswick. The high tides where you can walk on the ocean floor at low tide, then come back hours later and it's just water. Nice hiking there as well. 

PEI is lovely but it's tiny. We spent 2 days there and it was enough for us. If you go, have an ice cream at Cows.


----------



## gibor365

> After Newfoundland I liked New Brunswick


Isn't Bay of Fundy and Cabot trail in Nova Scotia?


----------



## MK7GTI

gibor365 said:


> Isn't Bay of Fundy and Cabot trail in Nova Scotia?


Cabot trail is in Cape Breton but, yes Nova Scotia. The Bay of Fundy is the body of water between Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.


----------



## layneleah

My wife and I decided to go on a trip to Europe, and therefore our friends advised us to look at tickets for the German railway. My wife and I decided to remember our youth.. In our youth, we often had to travel by train and it was so great! Someone thinks that it is inconvenient, long, etc., but for me it is such a thrill, romance. And what a pleasure it is to fall asleep to the sound of wheels. Don't rush anywhere, just enjoy the road. We have studied dbauskunft.com and we realized that there are insanely cool ticket prices. We had a great weekend in Berlin and are already thinking about a new trip!


----------



## Eder

I'm off to Mexico end of October...not really concerned if the Canada/US border is open or not although it should have been opened months ago imo.

Oh...if you want to freeze to death ya plunge into the ocean in PEI lol. If you take the Cabot Trail don't miss Louisbourg NS...









Welcome to Louisbourg, Nova Scotia, Canada


Visit Louisbourg, Nova Scotia, where the past is present. See Louisbourg's top attractions, vacation accommodation and great trip ideas for your stay.




louisbourg.ca





Funniest Canadian history ever.


----------



## hboy54

Eder said:


> I'm off to Mexico end of October...not really concerned if the Canada/US border is open or not although it should have been opened months ago imo.
> 
> Oh...if you want to freeze to death ya plunge into the ocean in PEI lol. If you take the Cabot Trail don't miss Louisbourg NS...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to Louisbourg, Nova Scotia, Canada
> 
> 
> Visit Louisbourg, Nova Scotia, where the past is present. See Louisbourg's top attractions, vacation accommodation and great trip ideas for your stay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> louisbourg.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funniest Canadian history ever.


This looks like a good stopping point. The Harbour looks like it has a huge public dock, though anchoring looks great at the south east end. Did you visit by boat Eder?


----------



## jargey3000

If anyone's coming to NL, and if interested, I'll put in a plug for the brother-in-law's airbnb, in Lewsporte.
He & his wife run a nice clean little place.👍👍


----------



## Eder

hboy54 said:


> This looks like a good stopping point. The Harbour looks like it has a huge public dock, though anchoring looks great at the south east end. Did you visit by boat Eder?


I took my motorhome,,,theres a few rudimentary rv parks in town. Pretty big water to sail there imo.


----------



## gibor365

My son (25) just found a new job and quit previous one....he has 1 month bread between jobs and was looking with my help for vaccation abroad.... There is a big issue with it.... or there is no direct flights, or a lot of Covid cases (ex. mexico doubling it every day) or bad weather ... At the end he booked Punta Cana this Saturday.... was offering me to go with him, but i;m sttill on the fence. ....
In any case, depends on his experience, I may go with my wife in the Fall! 
To tell the truth, we're so tired to sit almost 2 years in this Ontario swamp


----------



## newfoundlander61

I made it to Newfoundland from Ontario, arrived here on the 14th Aug will be done until the 24th. Great trip to date; very unusual hot weather for here but that will change this weekend


----------



## Beaver101

^ Enjoy your trip back home and have a safe return back to Ontario. 🌅🌅


----------



## gibor365

My wife wants to go to Amsterdam at the end of December for pleasure. Air fare is pretty good (less than 1k), Covid cases are pretty small and if you are fully vaccinated, nothing is required. Also everything is opened and you need to wear mask only in public transportation


----------



## andrewf

I'd do Amsterdam in the spring. In December it is a lot like London, gloomy/rainy.

Covid cases and controls can change a lot in 3 months! We were pretty relaxed last summer, too!


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> I'd do Amsterdam in the spring. In December it is a lot like London, gloomy/rainy.
> 
> Covid cases and controls can change a lot in 3 months! We were pretty relaxed last summer, too!


Sorry! I typed incorrectly (too much Russian Standard 😁). She was talking about end of September (there is a new Holiday ). In December our son going to Amsterdam for a business trip. He is starting new job in Netherlands PE company.
I personally would prefer to go to some 5 stars Adults only resort in Jamaica or punta Cana, but my wife likes more active vacation.

You are correct.... in end of December , the best place to travel is Spain (Andalusia) and Potugal.... we've been there ob Xmas 2019... amazing!


----------



## andrewf

September ought to still be quite nice. I really enjoyed my visit there.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> September ought to still be quite nice. I really enjoyed my visit there.


When did you visit?


----------



## andrewf

I went late May/early June of 2017, I think it was. It was unseasonably warm when I went though... high 20s and sunny.


----------



## james4beach

One of my parents is thinking of traveling to a foreign country. As I understand it, to arrive back into Canada they would have to use ArriveCAN. But my parent doesn't use a smartphone or laptop so they are not going to be able to upload their personal information before the trip back.

Does anyone know if I can do this on their behalf? I could keep a copy of their vaccination documents myself, and maybe they can phone me from overseas, and I can upload things for them using ArriveCAN.

Then, I would have a receipt. Unfortunately I don't see how I can send this receipt back to my overseas parent.

Any ideas? Is it pretty much impossible for someone to travel if they don't use a computer?


----------



## gibor365

Looks like this the case... still not sure how it’s going with smartphones... my son just arrived from Dominican, will as him tomorrow how was the process. 
I checked that for Netherlands is enough paper copy of full vaccination...not sure if it’s enough for Canada


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> Looks like this the case... still not sure how it’s going with smartphones... my son just arrived from Dominican, will as him tomorrow how was the process.
> I checked that for Netherlands is enough paper copy of full vaccination...not sure if it’s enough for Canada


I'm not happy that Canada requires computer usage. It should be possible to do this by showing paperwork.

Remind your son to do the follow up process through ArriveCAN (he's supposed to report his condition and symptoms). My friend's aunt forgot to do this after arrival back to Canada, and police came to her door.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> I'm not happy that Canada requires computer usage. It should be possible to do this by showing paperwork.
> 
> Remind your son to do the follow up process through ArriveCAN (he's supposed to report his condition and symptoms). My friend's aunt forgot to do this after arrival back to Canada, and police came to her door.


I agree! Our seniors are getting discriminated, especially those whose was both not in English speaking country.


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> I agree! Our seniors are getting discriminated, especially those whose was both not in English speaking country.


Totally agree with you. It's not fair for seniors... they have just as much right to travel as young people.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> One of my parents is thinking of traveling to a foreign country. As I understand it, to arrive back into Canada they would have to use ArriveCAN. But my parent doesn't use a smartphone or laptop so they are not going to be able to upload their personal information before the trip back.
> 
> Does anyone know if I can do this on their behalf? I could keep a copy of their vaccination documents myself, and maybe they can phone me from overseas, and I can upload things for them using ArriveCAN.
> 
> Then, I would have a receipt. Unfortunately I don't see how I can send this receipt back to my overseas parent.
> 
> Any ideas? Is it pretty much impossible for someone to travel if they don't use a computer?


“If you do not have a smart phone, or if you will not have data while travelling, you can enter the required information on the ArriveCAN website, and bring a printed copy or screenshot with you.“ 

I see no problem with you filling out the info online. I assume you could then send a PDF by email to wherever they are staying? Hotel? Family member? Internet cafe? Local library? 

not the easiest solution, but possible.


----------



## kcowan

In my experience, the hotel front desk will accept an email and print it for their guests. We did that in Seattle in July.


----------



## gibor365

kcowan said:


> In my experience, the hotel front desk will accept an email and print it for their guests. We did that in Seattle in July.


Maybe in Seattle hotel ... but try it in some resort in Cuba! And majority aren’t staying in hotel at all. I don’t remember when last time we stayed at hotel (except AI resorts).
Why The Netherlands satisfied with simple paper copy says that you are fully vaccinated (and this is for foreign tourists, except few countries)?! At least for Canadian citizen our government could do simple process


----------



## Spudd

james4beach said:


> One of my parents is thinking of traveling to a foreign country. As I understand it, to arrive back into Canada they would have to use ArriveCAN. But my parent doesn't use a smartphone or laptop so they are not going to be able to upload their personal information before the trip back.
> 
> Does anyone know if I can do this on their behalf? I could keep a copy of their vaccination documents myself, and maybe they can phone me from overseas, and I can upload things for them using ArriveCAN.
> 
> Then, I would have a receipt. Unfortunately I don't see how I can send this receipt back to my overseas parent.
> 
> Any ideas? Is it pretty much impossible for someone to travel if they don't use a computer?


They don't need to upload any scanned documents. As long as they can log into a public computer with printing capabilities, they'll be all right. Here's the verbage from the website: 

The ArriveCAN mobile app also has *optional* travel document scanning technology to make it easier and faster for you to input your travel document information. The technology is only used to scan your travel document information; an image of your travel document is not retained in ArriveCAN. 

Once you successfully complete your ArriveCAN submission, you'll receive an ArriveCAN receipt. It includes:

a summary of your travel (border crossing and date of arrival)
a list of travellers included in your submission
6-digit confirmation code
This receipt is proof that you've successfully completed your submission. It doesn't provide confirmation that you're eligible to enter Canada or of any public health exemptions, including those for fully vaccinated travellers.

You'll receive a copy of your ArriveCAN receipt by email. You must show your receipt, COVID-19 test results and proof of COVID-19 vaccination (if applicable) to a Canada border services officer upon entry. You can show your receipt by presenting either of the following:

the email
a printout
a screenshot
through ArriveCAN directly


----------



## gibor365

Just talked to my son who last night came back from Punta Cana. All those "precautious" are so stupid! He got lucky that he went to 5 stars resort where tests are performed.... still waiting line for for 2 hours , the tests are in doctor office from 9-10am! Obviously you pay for it ... you first should registed in lobby with all you flight data etc and then go to doctors office line. Regardless when you do test, in receipt there will be day/time that's exactly 72 hours before your flight! (actually nobodies know when lab checked your results, right?!). 
I also cannot understand this stupid 72 hours rule! 99% of people are going to Caribbean resorts for 7 days, you are doing PCR test in the middle of your vaccation....and it's more likely to get virus within last 3 days of your vacation, isn't it?! And, if you have test 73 or 74 hours before flight, there are more chances that you have virus?!
Stupidity with no border!


----------



## james4beach

Thanks to everyone above, I appreciate the ideas. Good ideas!


----------



## kellanfaraday

Greece is on my list but I just missed the summertime. So probably pushing that back to next year -.-


----------



## james4beach

I might go to Hawaii if the covid numbers drop during the winter and if officials encourage travel.

Currently however, Hawaii is asking that people don't travel there for vacation during this current covid surge, at least through to October


----------



## kcowan

I have decided to cancel my trip to Toronto this year. Don't need the 5 hours masked up with my COPD.

My Grandson is in BC on business so we are getting together tomorrow night. 

Taking a trip on the ferry to Victoria. Local travel only.


----------



## Eder

We have been enjoying the waters of the PNW this summer
Currently in desolation sound, surprising number of boats many with American flags
No talk about Covid, people out to meet each other, everyone shakes hands
I’ll be sorry to see the season end








just now in Melanie cove


----------



## james4beach

When this 4th wave dies down, I'm interested in going to the US for some business travel.

But what happens if I catch covid and have to go to a hospital in the US? If one gets hospitalized, the bills will easy gets into the hundreds of thousands of $.

Does anyone offer this kind of covid travel insurance? In the past I've used TD's Travel Medical Insurance but I don't know if they could pay out covid-related claims. The medical costs could bankrupt me.


----------



## damian13ster

Honestly, just read terms and conditions. When I travelled in 2020 I had COVID insurance. It was extremely cheap and all it took was online application. Granted, it was with Polish insurance company.


----------



## gibor365

Apparently we have another problem... we were thinking going to Amsterdam , but flight has stopover in Dublin (Aer Lingus) ... I’ve read article that Ireland (together with UK, Germany etc) don’t count mixing AZ with mNRA vaccines as fully vaccinated! (even if you have just layover). It’s so confusing now...


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> When this 4th wave dies down, I'm interested in going to the US for some business travel.
> 
> But what happens if I catch covid and have to go to a hospital in the US? If one gets hospitalized, the bills will easy gets into the hundreds of thousands of $.
> 
> Does anyone offer this kind of covid travel insurance? In the past I've used TD's Travel Medical Insurance but I don't know if they could pay out covid-related claims. The medical costs could bankrupt me.


Last time I checked, I think TD did not cover covid related costs, but maniLife did.
experts are recommending at least $1 million in covid related coverage. Be careful, while some companies offer up to $5M overall, they limit covid expenses to $200k.

im sure things will change…..there will likely be better options for fully vaxed people.

finally…remember….getting COVID and having coverage still doesn’t guarantee you a hospital bed.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> When this 4th wave dies down, I'm interested in going to the US for some business travel.
> 
> But what happens if I catch covid and have to go to a hospital in the US? If one gets hospitalized, the bills will easy gets into the hundreds of thousands of $.
> 
> Does anyone offer this kind of covid travel insurance? In the past I've used TD's Travel Medical Insurance but I don't know if they could pay out covid-related claims. The medical costs could bankrupt me.


From TD…….


*IMPORTANT NOTICE regarding COVID-19 travel advisories*

The Canadian government has issued a travel advisory to avoid non-essential travel outside Canada. If you travel to your destination or purchase Trip Cancelation and Interruption, after the issuance of the advisory, no claims related to COVID-19 will be paid for all TD Travel Insurance products.

unclear If this applies only to Interruption coverage or medical costs too.


----------



## Money172375

More from TD…..here’s an exclusion tied to travel advisories….

Travel advisory
Situation where Your claim will not be paid or payment will be limited:
• where an official travel advisory was issued by the Canadian government stating "Avoid all non-essential
travel" or "Avoid all travel" regarding the country, region or city of Your destination, before Your Effective
Date.
To view the travel advisories, visit the Government of Canada Travel site.
This exclusion does not apply to claims for a Medical Emergency or a Medical Condition unrelated to the travel advisory.


----------



## newfoundlander61

After flying to NFLD for 10 days we made it back to Ontario, took a 2 day rest and then drove to Sackville, NS. Great trip with the wifes family, had a nice lobster roll at Peggy's Cove. Got back last evening and heading back to work next Tuesday. It was a well needed trip and I feel really good and recharged, before going I was very burned out and tired.


----------



## Money172375

I’ve had a few friends travel to south lately. One for vacation, one to check in on a large plumping leak at their Florida home. Both said the process was “ok”. biggest stressor is waiting for proof of negative covid tests. This can really impact your planned departure date.
one faced an issue at the border when the guard wanted to see the full lab results, and not just the proof of a negative test. Remember, that border guards can deny the “simple” entry process and subject you to the full quarantine processe.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> finally…remember….getting COVID and having coverage still doesn’t guarantee you a hospital bed.


Very good point, and this is why nobody should ever travel to a hot spot. Some jurisdictions are seeing hospitals at high capacity and the last thing you want to do is get sick (or injured in ANY way) in a place like that.

For me that takes the US off the table for the foreseeable future, but we'll see how things shape up.

I know people like @Eder don't care and go to the US anyway, but they'd better hope they don't end up with any medical problems which require hospital care.



Money172375 said:


> More from TD…..here’s an exclusion tied to travel advisories….


Thanks, that's a big one.


----------



## gibor365

Only 4 countries have no any Covid restrictions (include PCR test) and operate as normal regardless of vaccination: Columbia, Mexico, Costa Rica , DR


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> When this 4th wave dies down, I'm interested in going to the US for some business travel.
> 
> But what happens if I catch covid and have to go to a hospital in the US? If one gets hospitalized, the bills will easy gets into the hundreds of thousands of $.
> 
> Does anyone offer this kind of covid travel insurance? In the past I've used TD's Travel Medical Insurance but I don't know if they could pay out covid-related claims. The medical costs could bankrupt me.


I wonder if there will be COVID insurance, at least for those who are vaccinated.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Apparently we have another problem... we were thinking going to Amsterdam , but flight has stopover in Dublin (Aer Lingus) ... I’ve read article that Ireland (together with UK, Germany etc) don’t count mixing AZ with mNRA vaccines as fully vaccinated! (even if you have just layover). It’s so confusing now...


Should be able to get a direct flight from Pearson to Amsterdam, it is a hub. Try KLM.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> I wonder if there will be COVID insurance, at least for those who are vaccinated.


It has existed since the very first day of pandemic.






CoverMe® travel insurance for travelling Canadians | Manulife


Get help covering your unexpected emergency medical expenses and more when you travel away from home.




www.manulife.ca





Apparently coverage is 1mln for unvaccinated.


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> It has existed since the very first day of pandemic


Thanks for pointing this out. It seems that Manulife does have coverage for COVID related expenses (trip coverage)

https://www.coverme.com/travel-insurance/travelling-canadians/covid-19-pandemic-travel-plan.html


----------



## damian13ster

No worries. I can't really comment as I have no experience with using Canadian insurance (have two passports and EU insurance is simply cheaper and I know of people using it successfully) but yeah, they have that in the offering.


----------



## hboy54

We haven't ever gotten to the point of discussing payment options as Ontario residents seeking medical care in NS. Closest clinic we phoned "not taking anyone new". Second clinic "No walk ins". On latter trip drove by the hospital "ER closed".


----------



## gibor365

hboy54 said:


> We haven't ever gotten to the point of discussing payment options as Ontario residents seeking medical care in NS. Closest clinic we phoned "not taking anyone new". Second clinic "No walk ins". On latter trip drove by the hospital "ER closed".


It’s much easier for Finish to get medical treatment in Ireland, than interprovincial here 🤣


----------



## james4beach

hboy54 said:


> We haven't ever gotten to the point of discussing payment options as Ontario residents seeking medical care in NS. Closest clinic we phoned "not taking anyone new". Second clinic "No walk ins". On latter trip drove by the hospital "ER closed".


And this is why covid case #s are serious and can't just be ignored, even if someone thinks covid isn't a big deal or thinks everyone should just "suck it up" and get on with life

Doctor availability is reduced. Their jobs are dangerous, because seeing patients in person puts them at high risk for catching covid. So many clinics are scaling back availability to see patients. I also know of a couple (older) doctors who retired during all of this, because covid could have killed them if they kept seeing patients.

We have to take case numbers seriously. When case numbers soar, it's a problem for all of us. We ALL need to see doctors for one reason or another. If the docs aren't available, if the clinics are at capacity, that's a big problem.


----------



## ian

Looking very doubtful for Greece in Oct. Hopes have shifted to Panama in Jan/Feb.

Really tired of this covid business.


----------



## Eder

We were trying to get a blood test for my wife in Sidney bc
Was pretty much impossible
We even tried Victoria clinics without success
Alberta has much better accessibility

internationally there’s no comparison
We walk in without trouble in USA Mexico even polynesia to get a test or see a doc
Improbably the cheapest doctor visits were in the USA where we have been charged $40 to $80 to see a doctor.


----------



## gibor365

ian said:


> Looking very doubtful for Greece in Oct. Hopes have shifted to Panama in Jan/Feb.
> 
> Really tired of this covid business.


We are exausted "tired of this covid business."  ... Looking very doubtful for Amsterdam in Oct. Maybe Punta Cana, St Lucia or Antigua in the Fall.... also, looks like booking should be done day-to-day


----------



## newfoundlander61

One of our adult daughters is going to Portgual this month, that I would not do myself.


----------



## ian

The differences in cost and availability of PCR tests is surprising. We looked at Mexico. Seems to be $150 USD from what we can tell in PV. Our friends in Panama say $100-200 USD. Numerous places in Athens, Greece priced at 40-60 E. Government place a cap on PCR tests at 60E. We have hear of antigen test costing from $40-$150.


----------



## damian13ster

It is also inevitable that in some places, if not all of them, vaccines will no longer bet free.
3rd, 4th, 5th......15th doses will have to be paid for by the person getting vaccinated.
Tourism industry might get a boost by subsiding vaccines to make them cheaper in specific area


----------



## gibor365

ian said:


> The differences in cost and availability of PCR tests is surprising. We looked at Mexico. Seems to be $150 USD from what we can tell in PV. Our friends in Panama say $100-200 USD. Numerous places in Athens, Greece priced at 40-60 E. Government place a cap on PCR tests at 60E. We have hear of antigen test costing from $40-$150.


I’ve heard in France it’s free 😁


----------



## james4beach

Some of my older family members (over age 70) were considering going to Europe, but recently cancelled those plans.

Concerns included the experience, and limitations, at the destination country. There would likely be some restrictions at that country, but it also occurred to them that getting around will become more unpleasant. They previously used public transport in Europe (bus & train) but due to covid concerns, would likely have to take taxis everywhere. More generally, there are mobility concerns within the country.

Maybe the Caribbean could be a good destination for Canadians this winter? We'll see.


----------



## sags

I don't care if people want to travel, but I don't think the government should be expected to come to their rescue if they get into trouble.


----------



## damian13ster

Agreed. As long as the government isn't the one screwing them over


----------



## ian

sags said:


> I don't care if people want to travel, but I don't think the government should be expected to come to their rescue if they get into trouble.


Absolutely agree. I have no sympathy for those, who against Government advisories, went to countries that were subsequently place on the the no fly list such as India. 

I feel the same way about Canadian citizens who failed to leave Afghanistan months before when they were strongly advised to do so by our Government. Or any other countries for that matter. Then expect support after the tears and sympathy stories start to flow.


----------



## sags

I agree....some people didn't want to leave Afghanistan and then they did and then they didn't and then they did...and showed up with 50 of their relatives.


----------



## sags

I am curious........

All these older people.........70 plus, who travel all over are in perfect health or just don't worry about it ?

Health concerns have always held me back from long distance traveling the past few years.

Maybe it is because I have been in the hospital so many times in the past few years, that I am too worried now.

The issues were addressed and hopefully one time issues.......appendicitis twice, heart ablation, heart stents......

But all those times laying in the ER keep coming to mind.

From what I saw on the cruise ships years ago........a lot of people are traveling with health conditions.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Health concerns have always held me back from long distance traveling the past few years.


Really?! And I thought not enough OAS/GIS held you LOL


----------



## Money172375

sags said:


> I am curious........
> 
> All these older people.........70 plus, who travel all over are in perfect health or just don't worry about it ?
> 
> Health concerns have always held me back from long distance traveling the past few years.
> 
> Maybe it is because I have been in the hospital so many times in the past few years, that I am too worried now.
> 
> The issues were addressed and hopefully one time issues.......appendicitis twice, heart ablation, heart stents......
> 
> But all those times laying in the ER keep coming to mind.
> 
> From what I saw on the cruise ships years ago........a lot of people are traveling with health conditions.


Don’t worry about it. I live in a seniors community. Last year, I’d guess about 20% of the regular snowbirds headed down South. This year, I’m guessing it will be over 50%. Most are delaying until the new year vs. Heading down oct-dec.


----------



## damian13ster

A lots of countries have significantly better health care than Canada does. Just get yourself good insurance and go for it


----------



## sags

I wouldn't be confident that countries would prioritize a foreigner over their own citizens.........if it came down to it.


----------



## damian13ster

Vast majority of countries have two-tiered healthcare system. Of course public healthcare system will take care of you in emergency situations. Private will take care of all non-emergency needs. Just make sure you have good insurance.
Or don't. You can be afraid, not confident, etc. Options are easily available for anyone who wants them though.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> I am curious........
> 
> All these older people.........70 plus, who travel all over are in perfect health or just don't worry about it ?


sags some people just don't worry about stuff like this virus. It's still a matter of luck after all... someone can take a trip to Florida, and may not catch the virus.

Or they may catch the virus and not have symptoms. If they are fully vaccinated, they could catch it and have a very mild experience (if they notice it at all).


----------



## andrewf

ian said:


> Absolutely agree. I have no sympathy for those, who against Government advisories, went to countries that were subsequently place on the the no fly list such as India.
> 
> I feel the same way about Canadian citizens who failed to leave Afghanistan months before when they were strongly advised to do so by our Government. Or any other countries for that matter. Then expect support after the tears and sympathy stories start to flow.


I had a coworker who got trapped in India this spring for three months. They made a rather ill-advised family trip to visit a grandfather who was unwell. Extended the stay a few days since other family was and then air travel promptly got shut down.


----------



## Money172375

I see that the US has amended travel rules for some foreigners. vaccination is required.

does this only apply to the countries which Trump banned? 

either way, is the US accepting AZ (heavily used in thenUK) or a mix for entry? I can’t find any specifics.


----------



## gibor365

Very useful website , where Canadian can travel and if there are restrictions. Not sure how ofter this site is updated though.... Also, couldn't find some contries like Netherlands or Denmark









Where Canadians Can Travel & Travel Restrictions


List of places Canadians can travel now. Check the latest travel restrictions for Canadians and everything Canadians travelers need to know.




capturetheatlas.com





Good news that
*As of June 21, 2020,* *Spain is somewhere you can travel* to. Currently, *vaccinated and unvaccinated travelers can enter Spain from Canada with no restrictions.

However, Portugal is requires negative CPR testing if you fly in... So, my understanding if drive from Spain to Portugal, you don't need anything?!*

The problem is also with PCR test before returning to Canada it cost 80-110EUR and looks like you need to go to airport to take it


----------



## Eder

If only there was a vaccine to eliminate all the travel BS that we need to go thru


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> If only there was a vaccine to eliminate all the travel BS that we need to go thru


True! I’d like to get such vaccine and even pay for it! Was thinking to go with my wife to St Lucia or Antigua in November/December.... so much hassle! PCR test here to departure, fill out some forms ... when you arrive, we should be mostly concerned with another PCR test before heading back to Canada, then another test in Canada.... holy **** ! And if one of us happens to get positive test without any symptoms or test will he wrong ?! We are screwed! Go quarantine for 2 weeks somewhere! Or if I get results not on time?! On the other hand , after traveling 4-5 times per year abroad, we are devastated to sit in Ontario for 2 years!
Maybe go to DR or Mexico?! At least no need for any tests before departure... and as my son was told in DR, if your test is positive, you go to another door , pay another $100 , and your test miraculously becomes negative 🤣 . $100USD and you are healthy! Nice!


----------



## Eder

I love Mexico.


----------



## diharv

Eder said:


> If only there was a vaccine to eliminate all the travel BS that we need to go thru


I thought that was the original intent of getting the double vax, to avoid all the travel BS that we still have to go through. I do call BS on the premise that vaxed people can still carry and spread the virus though because the point of vaccination is that the virus cannot replicate so any spread is minuscule to the point of being irrelevant. It has been proven that the level of infection is dependent on the the amount of exposure. Great revenue generator though with the PCR test at $150 USD a pop though.


----------



## ian

diharv said:


> I thought that was the original intent of getting the double vax, to avoid all the travel BS that we still have to go through. I do call BS on the premise that vaxed people can still carry and spread the virus though because the point of vaccination is that the virus cannot replicate so any spread is minuscule to the point of being irrelevant. It has been proven that the level of infection is dependent on the the amount of exposure. Great revenue generator though with the PCR test at $150 USD a pop though.


We are amazed at the differences in cost of PCR tests. We have looked at Mexico, Panama, and Greece. The first two are $150 USD and up. Greece is a max of 60E (Gov't regulated) with some clinics charging only 40E. 

Must be a great deal of margin. It seems that the closer the clinic is to an airport or port, the more they charge for the test.


----------



## Eder

Old Mexican saying...

If you want to buy a blanket, enter the shop with a blanket over your shoulder.


----------



## gibor365

ian said:


> We are amazed at the differences in cost of PCR tests. We have looked at Mexico, Panama, and Greece. The first two are $150 USD and up. Greece is a max of 60E (Gov't regulated) with some clinics charging only 40E.
> 
> Must be a great deal of margin. It seems that the closer the clinic is to an airport or port, the more they charge for the test.


Same for Madrid, I did a quick check and prices are in range 60-110 EUR, but I could not find facilities addresses 🤔

I’ve read somewhere that in France PCR test is free!

Btw, I contacted our insurance (Manulife) and was told that I cannot claim it even though Health Spending Account ... what the Hell?!
After visiting Punta Caña, my son told me that regular PCR cost $100USD and additional $100USD if you want to convert positive test to negative 🤣


----------



## Eder

Looks like USA border opening in November. No PCR test required but proof of vaccine required. This is great news for those of us wanting to snow bird. Florida Keys here we come! Theres a marlin with my name on it.


----------



## Money172375

Eder said:


> Looks like USA border opening in November. No PCR test required but proof of vaccine required. This is great news for those of us wanting to snow bird. Florida Keys here we come! Theres a marlin with my name on it.


Is the “no test” confirmed? So no test to enter A foreign country, but I need a test to enter my birth country?


----------



## Eder

Thats what it sounds like at this point. No details confirmed yet.
The northern states want Canadians coming to shop for the weekend....requiring a PCR test to enter would kill that idea.
Some states are going to give free PCR tests to Canadians for their return return ...NY is confirmed.


----------



## james4beach

I just had another domestic flight... another comfortable, well organized experience with Air Canada.

The whole process seemed pretty safe to me, with one exception: getting off the plane.

Man do people cluster together!! People just forget about distancing, and everyone was grabbing their suitcases and then standing shoulder-to-shoulder ... I saw barely 2 feet between peoples heads. VERY VERY dangerous circumstances.

If you're flying, beware of the de-planing stage. Make sure your mask is fitting perfectly, and hang back and wait for the crowd to disperse.


----------



## Covariance

james4beach said:


> I just had another domestic flight... another comfortable, well organized experience with Air Canada.
> 
> The whole process seemed pretty safe to me, with one exception: getting off the plane.
> 
> Man do people cluster together!! People just forget about distancing, and everyone was grabbing their suitcases and then standing shoulder-to-shoulder ... I saw barely 2 feet between peoples heads. VERY VERY dangerous circumstances.
> 
> If you're flying, beware of the de-planing stage. Make sure your mask is fitting perfectly, and hang back and wait for the crowd to disperse.


Same experience here. Crowding to deplane. Also in the terminal prior to boarding in my experience.


----------



## kcowan

james4beach said:


> If you're flying, beware of the de-planing stage. Make sure your mask is fitting perfectly, and hang back and wait for the crowd to disperse.


Yes this is what we did in July 2020, Dec 2020 and June 2021. Hanging back makes so much sense. It makes it easier to get your carryons, lets the bags get delivered and reduces the lines at customs/immigration.


----------



## londoncalling

I have travelled a few times by air in the past 2 months and noticed the same thing along with fuller flights(good for the industry, and flight costs bad for social distancing). Hanging back and waiting is fine. In fact I am usually one of the last to board going back to prepandemic I was of the mindset why sit on the plane any longer than necessary. Deplaning is a bit different. If I am sitting near the front of the plane would I not be putting myself in greater proximity to more people? I rarely have checked luggage (short business stays) and have yet to travel out of country. Will be flying each of the next 3 weeks in Canada to different cities so will try and note the differences regionally.


----------



## james4beach

I had another flight today. Unlike my last few flights, this time many people were coughing both in the terminal, and on the plane. There was a man sitting across the aisle from me who coughed every few minutes, over the span of 3 hours.

Hard to tell if this is because people are sick, or just feeling irritation from dry air and cold weather. I certainly do more coughing and throat clearing in winter months too, but I can control it and didn't cough at all on the flight.

I'm nervous that I heard so many people coughing on the plane. I'm starting to think I might not want to fly much, during cold & flu season.


----------



## Eder

RV sites are full in the Okanagan . Everyone is waiting for Nov 8 to cross the border...should be a gong show traffic jam for a few days.


----------



## londoncalling

I was supposed to head to Toronto on Monday but need to cancel my flight. I have been trying to do so for 3 days now. cancelling online is not an option available to me as I booked this flight with Westjet Dollars and have a companion voucher for the booking. I am platinum status and have been on hold for hours using the platinum service number. The request a callback is backlogged to November 12th. Sigh. I understand this is a first world problem but short of going to the airport I am running out of ideas and patience.


----------



## milhouse

londoncalling said:


> I was supposed to head to Toronto on Monday but need to cancel my flight. I have been trying to do so for 3 days now. cancelling online is not an option available to me as I booked this flight with Westjet Dollars and have a companion voucher for the booking. I am platinum status and have been on hold for hours using the platinum service number. The request a callback is backlogged to November 12th. Sigh. I understand this is a first world problem but short of going to the airport I am running out of ideas and patience.


I had to call in last week to book a Westjet flight using my companion voucher because open jaw itineraries aren't bookable online using a companion voucher. The next available call back was literally a week out so I decided to put the call on speaker and just wait it out. Was on hold for about 3.5 hours before getting answered. 2 points of note: I suspect the reps are getting a lot of attitude from callers having to wait so long (even though it's not their fault their management isn't staffing up) but a simple "Thanks for waiting." can go a long way. Reps need to be getting the caller's call back number in the event the call is accidentally disconnected. If after waiting for 3.5 hours on hold and I was somehow disconnected halfway through my booking, I would have been pissed.

Agree, first world problems but this is kind of ridiculous.


----------



## Money172375

milhouse said:


> I had to call in last week to book a Westjet flight using my companion voucher because open jaw itineraries aren't bookable online using a companion voucher. The next available call back was literally a week out so I decided to put the call on speaker and just wait it out. Was on hold for about 3.5 hours before getting answered. 2 points of note: I suspect the reps are getting a lot of attitude from callers having to wait so long (even though it's not their fault their management isn't staffing up) but a simple "Thanks for waiting." can go a long way. Reps need to be getting the caller's call back number in the event the call is accidentally disconnected. If after waiting for 3.5 hours on hold and I was somehow disconnected halfway through my booking, I would have been pissed.
> 
> Agree, first world problems but this is kind of ridiculous.


I find Twitter mail the best way to get a company’s attention. It worked for me with air Canada, westjet and Expedia last year. Just today, got a response same day from Bosch (via Twitter) about a dishwasher after calling and emailing the last 5 weeks.


----------



## milhouse

Money172375 said:


> esponse same day from Bosch (via Twitter) about a dishwasher after calling and emailing the last 5 weeks.


I initially DM'ed Westjet's social media team over Twitter to confirm I couldn't book open jaw with a companion voucher online and had to call in. They responded back in about an hour which I think is fine for my original question. 

Not sure if they would be able to help me with my basic booking but it might be worth a shot for Londoncalling's issue particularly since they have status.


----------



## londoncalling

I appreciate Milhouse's suggestion but learned long ago that those that deal with customer service get treated very poorly at the best of times. I recall missing a connection one afternoon and having another traveler vent his frustration on the ticketing agent at the gate. The flight had already left so it's not like tehy were going to have it come back for us. The agent smiled and nodded while he expressed his frustration using every expletive imaginable. Having worked in construction I thought I knew all the words but that was not the case. Turns out the next flight out for him was the next day. When it was my turn I wandered up to the counter complimented her on her patience in dealing with such a horrible customer and low and behold I got a flight a couple hours later for the same route and destination. I was also provided a first class upgrade, reward miles and a meal voucher. 

I was able to get through today after being on hold for an eternity. The service was excellent but hurried. I did get a chance to thank the agent for completing my request and show some empathy to the backlog they are experiencing. I can tell she took a moment to pause and briefly appreciate that sometimes people do acknowledge the efforts of those that work in thankless jobs. Unfortunately, I am 64 Dollars shy of hitting platinum status for next year and am not sure if I will be flying again in 2021. I do have a twitter account but rarely use it perhaps I will give this a try next time.


----------



## james4beach

Here's a question about US/Canada travel. Let's say you're in the US and get your COVID test before re-entry to Canada.

As I understand it, this has to be a PCR test which takes 2-3 days to acquire. So you have to arrange for the test and then wait for the results.

What happens if you fail the test? You may of course have an asymptomatic infection, or a false positive. So you'll need another test right away. What happens with your flight booking? I've really never made last minute flight changes like this, so I'm still trying to understand the logistics of what's involved with US/Canada travel.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Here's a question about US/Canada travel. Let's say you're in the US and get your COVID test before re-entry to Canada.
> 
> As I understand it, this has to be a PCR test which takes 2-3 days to acquire. So you have to arrange for the test and then wait for the results.
> 
> What happens if you fail the test? You may of course have an asymptomatic infection, or a false positive. So you'll need another test right away. What happens with your flight booking? I've really never made last minute flight changes like this, so I'm still trying to understand the logistics of what's involved with US/Canada travel.


I think swoop charges $10 extra which allows for flight changes. either way, I think you’re at the mercy of the airline and their schedules. We’re likely going to Florida at Xmas. Driving down, flying back. Worst case scenario, we’ll drive back.


----------



## Money172375

I’ll add that it appears airlines don’t appear to be back to their regular schedules. Sometimes only flying once or twice a week to certain destinations.


----------



## Eclectic21

james4beach said:


> Here's a question about US/Canada travel. Let's say you're in the US and get your COVID test before re-entry to Canada.
> 
> As I understand it, this has to be a PCR test which takes 2-3 days to acquire ...


There's a pretty long list of acceptable tests at COVID-19 testing for travellers - Travel restrictions in Canada – Travel.gc.ca.

Some of the acceptable types seem to have results as quick as two to four hours, with some sites tacking on about forty dollars to fast track the results.





__





COVID Testing for Travel - Miami, FL | Evivia : Telemedicine


COVID-19 PCR testing for travel and business. Results in 24 hours. FDA Authorized & CLIA Certified Lab in Miami, Florida. No referral needed. From $199.




eviviacare.com












Rapid Covid Testing | WeTestU | San Diego


WeTestU offers mobile rapid covid tests for travel, Result in 15 minutes straight to your inbox. We also have a location in Mission Valley, San Diego




www.wetestu.com





It may be YMMV depending on your location as to which tests and what the results time frame is.


As for if you have to make changes to the flight - I expect it will depend on what's available and paid for when the ticket is booked. For example, IIRC some of the sales were advertising that all changes fees were being waived to entice travelers.


Cheers


Cheers


----------



## james4beach

Eclectic21 said:


> There's a pretty long list of acceptable tests at COVID-19 testing for travellers - Travel restrictions in Canada – Travel.gc.ca.
> 
> Some of the acceptable types seem to have results as quick as two to four hours, with some sites tacking on about forty dollars to fast track the results.


Thanks, I didn't realize it was possible to have tests this fast for re-entry back to Canada.

I really find all of this very confusing and I have heard a lot of conflicting information from friends of mine who have been traveling.


----------



## Money172375

Nobody I know has paid for a test while in the US before coming back to Canada. Make an appointment at Walgreens or cvs and get tested. Just need to provide a US address where you’re staying. This is from people who both rent and own in Florida.


----------



## kcowan

james4beach said:


> ....
> I'm nervous that I heard so many people coughing on the plane. I'm starting to think I might not want to fly much, during cold & flu season.


Sometimes the filtered air from their HEPA system can be dry. It will impact anyone with lung problems. But if they are sitting beside you or behind you, you might want to change seats!


----------



## Eder

Well if the coughing dont get ya the titanium dioxide will.


----------



## james4beach

I can't tell if this is new, but apparently the US has also changed some rules for people flying in


proof of negative covid test within 3 days
proof of vaccination

Is this what it was before as well, or has this changed?


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I can't tell if this is new, but apparently the US has also changed some rules for people flying in
> 
> 
> proof of negative covid test within 3 days
> proof of vaccination
> 
> Is this what it was before as well, or has this changed?


The proof of vaccination is relatively new for flights originating in Canada. came just after the introduction of the vax passports iirc.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> The proof of vaccination is relatively new for flights originating in Canada. came just after the introduction of the vax passports iirc.


Are the provincial vaccination records valid as proof for entry into the US? I wonder how on earth they (US CBP) are keeping up with the different provincial versions.

Are they able to decode those QR codes and make sense of them? Seems unlikely to me. So I wonder what constitutes proof that a Canadian has been vaccinated.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Are the provincial vaccination records valid as proof for entry into the US? I wonder how on earth they (US CBP) are keeping up with the different provincial versions.
> 
> Are they able to decode those QR codes and make sense of them? Seems unlikely to me. So I wonder what constitutes proof that a Canadian has been vaccinated.


Yes, The newest vaccination QR codes (in most, if not all provinces) now have the Official Canada logo on them. I know the first version in Ontario did not have the Canada logo on it.

edit - all provinces and territories should have this available by Nov 30.






How to get your Canadian COVID-19 proof of vaccination - Canada.ca


When you travel in Canada by plane, train or cruise ship, or travel to another country, the Canadian COVID-19 proof of vaccination is the recognized and trusted proof to show your vaccination history.




www.canada.ca


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> edit - all provinces and territories should have this available by Nov 30.


Interesting, so it seems I should refresh or download this again because the format has changed.


----------



## james4beach

It seems that COVID testing can sometimes be free in the US, for re-entry back to Canada.

Walgreens has a NAAT test, which is accepted at the Canadian border. Apparently this test is government funded, if you can find it at your Walgreens location.

Both PCR and NAAT are acceptable for entering Canada. Just beware of the time to get the test results, so leave plenty of time just in case.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/free-test-u-s-1.6242844


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> It seems that COVID testing can sometimes be free in the US, for re-entry back to Canada.
> 
> Walgreens has a NAAT test, which is accepted at the Canadian border. Apparently this test is government funded, if you can find it at your Walgreens location.
> 
> Both PCR and NAAT are acceptable for entering Canada. Just beware of the time to get the test results, so leave plenty of time just in case.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/free-test-u-s-1.6242844


None of my neighbour snowbirds have paid for a test in the US. Book test online, show up at drive through. Don’t leave your car. Swab yourself. test results usually within 48 hours.

Apparently NAAT test results can be had same day. Walgreens and CVS are favs.

a friend of mine visited California and got a free test at the beach. Pop up location.

if I was down there, I’d Google free Covid test. I was thinking the requirement for tests for returning Canadians would be dropped soon….but with some provinces and territories seeing an increase in cases….maybe not.


----------



## Benting

Hummm, free test, swab yourself ? Smell fishy to me


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Apparently NAAT test results can be had same day. Walgreens and CVS are favs.


That's good to hear that both of them do this.

I tried inquiring with a CVS by phone, and they told me I had to bring a state ID (which I don't have). Are you sure that Canadians can get these too?


----------



## Money172375

i can’t say for certain, but this issue is on the newscasts a lot lately and there are more stories about how Canadians can get free tests.


----------



## Money172375

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/free-test-u-s-1.6242844


----------



## Money172375

Appears the relaxing of testing for returning Canadians will only apply to those who were gone less than 72 hours. Don’t think this will make the masses happy.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pcr-test-drop-72-hours-1.6252039


----------



## damian13ster

Of course it will - it is Canada in 2021 - seeing others being miserable makes Canadians happy


----------



## londoncalling

Still no plans to travel out of country for me. Did book a flight to Calgary before year end and headed to Banff for the holidays. Wanted to maintain platinum status with WestJet and was just shy of hitting the milestone. Able to book using WJ$. Have an overnight. will also be able to retain status with Marriott for next year as well as we have a hotel stay the night before we fly home. Perhaps an international flight in February or later in the spring.


----------



## londoncalling

damian13ster said:


> Of course it will - it is Canada in 2021 - seeing others being miserable makes Canadians happy


The 72 hour travel will be a temporary measure and will apply to all travelers soon.


----------



## Eder

The thing is Americans can enter without pcr test and stay up to 6 months. Logic remains missing from any Liberal covid decisions.


----------



## londoncalling

Eder said:


> The thing is Americans can enter without pcr test and stay up to 6 months. Logic remains missing from any Liberal covid decisions.


No argument here on the differences between the two nations. It's the same with work visas. Different rules and most defy logic


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> None of my neighbour snowbirds have paid for a test in the US. Book test online, show up at drive through. Don’t leave your car. Swab yourself. test results usually within 48 hours.
> 
> Apparently NAAT test results can be had same day. Walgreens and CVS are favs.


I spent some time looking into this because I am seriously looking at some California travel. I also talked with an American friend who has travelled between countries a couple tiems. Here's what I learned.

It's true that Canadians can get free COVID testing at Walgreens and CVS. I don't know if it's in all states but based on the Walgreens & CVS web sites, it appears to be.

These tests need to be booked online, but availability can be limited. My friend (who's currently in the US) is about to return to Canada, and she was unable to find one of these free bookings. So she still ended up going to a private clinic, something like an Urgent Care, and paying for a PCR test.

The pharmacies do have these rather fast NAAT tests. At Walgreens it's called ID NOW. These are great, apparently quite fast.

However... not all locations support the NAAT tests. Where I'm looking at in California doesn't have NAAT. So I would have to book a PCR test at one of the pharmacies.

There are still tricky parts to this. The turnaround time on PCR tests is slower and is not guaranteed. Asking my friends and reading threads on the internet, I have heard time lines between *1 day and 5 days*. So the test may or may not come back in time for your flight, meaning you can't fly.

*IN SUMMARY*: if there are NAAT tests where you're going (e.g. ID NOW @ Walgreens) then you're set. Get one of those before returning to Canada. However, they are not available in all cities. In that case you will need a PCR test, which might be around 1-2 days but in some cases could take longer. So if you are stuck using the PCR route, there is a risk you will not get it in time. Also keep in mind that timeslots may not always be available, even for NAAT, so as my friend encountered you might have to book a PCR test, or possibly go to a private clinic and pay money.


----------



## Spudd

Eder said:


> The thing is Americans can enter without pcr test and stay up to 6 months. Logic remains missing from any Liberal covid decisions.


Enter Canada? I don't think so. From Canada.ca:

*Who must take a pre-entry test*
All travellers *5 years of age or older*, regardless of citizenship or vaccination status, must:

provide proof of a COVID-19 negative molecular test result *taken within 72 hours* of your scheduled flight, or arrival at a land border crossing to enter Canada *OR*
proof of a previous positive test result taken between 14 and 180 days.


----------



## james4beach

I just heard a story today of a couple of my ex coworkers. They went to Germany, fully vaccinated. They both caught covid and they were put into quarantine for 10 days (which I think means they had to extend their hotel and flight).

Luckily it sounds like a pretty mild case and they're doing well, probably thanks to the vaccine.

In any case, it's a real danger of travelling anywhere. If you catch covid, you will be quarantined and will have some big costs too. I'm still on the fence about travel.


----------



## james4beach

Has anyone tried these at-home test kits from Switch Health? I found this link through Air Canada.

They're advertising a deal for Aeroplan members, $80 for a 2-pack Rapid Antigen Test Kit. That doesn't seem too bad to me for $40 a test, DIY from home.

That's valid for flying into the US, right?

This is also much cheaper than any of the other antigen tests I've found in BC. All the other antigen tests are $100 to $150 in this province, but much cheaper in other provinces.


----------



## agent99

james4beach said:


> Has anyone tried these at-home test kits from Switch Health? I found this link through Air Canada.
> 
> They're advertising a deal for Aeroplan members, $80 for a 2-pack Rapid Antigen Test Kit. That doesn't seem too bad to me for $40 a test, DIY from home.
> 
> That's valid for flying into the US, right?
> 
> This is also much cheaper than any of the other antigen tests I've found in BC. All the other antigen tests are $100 to $150 in this province, but much cheaper in other provinces.


James,
When my wife was looking into it, I believe she could have had a rapid test done at many pharmacies here in Ontario, for $40. That would get her into the USA. But to get back, she would need a PCR test. Those are the ones that cost ~$200 . 

Apparently some pharmacies in the USA will do a PCR for no cost, if they think you are a resident!

My wife didn't go, and we have no plans to unless Covid infections get under control over winter.


----------



## diharv

PCR tests for zero cost, PCR tests for $200. Alot of places are making a killing for what is probably a test that probably actually costs $5.00 or less to perform. Our PCR tests cost $91 each in Huatulco. Swabs taken Nov17 at 8am. Test submitted in Mexico City on Nov18 at 12:30 pm and negative result emailed at 8pm that night. The only glitch on returning home ( aside from a three hour delay leaving Mexico and a two and a half hour wait for luggage at YVR) was returning home to the interior after detouring through the US because of the highway closures. By the time we reached the border, it was 73 hours after the PCR test was done. We had to go inside for an interrogation and have the car searched before they let us through satisfied that our trip through the US was not a joyride taking advantage of the situation.


----------



## james4beach

agent99 said:


> When my wife was looking into it, I believe she could have had a rapid test done at many pharmacies here in Ontario, for $40. That would get her into the USA. But to get back, she would need a PCR test. Those are the ones that cost ~$200 .
> 
> Apparently some pharmacies in the USA will do a PCR for no cost, if they think you are a resident!


There are tests like that in Ontario and Alberta pharmacies for $40, but that's not the case in every province. Here in BC, there are no cheap tests at pharmacies.

Or if someone in BC finds one, can you share the info? Shoppers Drug Mart doesn't have them in BC, they only do very expensive tests.

It's true that the US has free PCR tests.


----------



## Money172375

Has anyone gone all inclusive to the Caribbean lately? 

curious as to what the experience is like. Masks? Buffets? Capacities? Pool? Shows? Vax requirements for guests/employees?

We’re getting ready to start researching. These are some of my requirements:

1. PCR testing onsite and included 
2. Ability to cancel at anytime before the trip (within reason)
3. Travel insurance remains available for up to $5million

anything else I should consider?


----------



## diharv

Our all inclusive in Huatulco had PCR testing onsite but not included. Only the highest end hotel had it included, not our lowly Barcelo. 91 USD per person and the results were back in 36 hours.
Masks are required while walking around indoors and while getting served at buffet and bar, unless sitting down at table or sitting at a bar. not rigidly enforced but right thing to do. 18 days in two different resorts and we never saw an employees mouth so they are very good at keeping masked. Its the guests that are not so vigilant.
Capacity? No idea but if they could sell every room they would. Shows and buffets full, especially on the weekend of a Mexican National holiday.
The pools and shows were as normal, no restrictions.
Vaccine requirements? Well, we need them to fly anywhere.
I bought separate travel medicalinsurance though PBC with $10M covid coverage as my RBC credit card insurance provided none.


----------



## james4beach

Has anyone here failed a PCR test while outside the country, meaning they couldn't fly back to Canada and instead had to spend two more weeks in quarantine instead?

e.g. if you're in Mexico and the PCR test shows you're infected, forget about the flight... you need to book 2 more weeks of hotel. Just wondering if that's happened to anyone here.


----------



## james4beach

I just booked a one week trip to the US.

I recently had a COVID test through provincial health. Then I noticed that, with some work, I'm able to get this PDF copy of the test results. Now I am wondering if I can use this free test result to enter the US as well? Has anyone done this?

People in some provinces buy $40 rapid tests but here in BC the tests cost $150 to $200 (there are no $40 rapid tests). What if I presented this provincial covid test result? Would the Americans accept it?


----------



## Mechanic

I'd just like to be able to drive to Alberta for a couple of weeks to visit my kids and grandkids. It's been quite some time due to covid. Now, there's washed out roads, gas rationing and essential travel restrictions only.


----------



## Spudd

james4beach said:


> I just booked a one week trip to the US.
> 
> I recently had a COVID test through provincial health. Then I noticed that, with some work, I'm able to get this PDF copy of the test results. Now I am wondering if I can use this free test result to enter the US as well? Has anyone done this?
> 
> People in some provinces buy $40 rapid tests but here in BC the tests cost $150 to $200 (there are no $40 rapid tests). What if I presented this provincial covid test result? Would the Americans accept it?
> 
> View attachment 22421


*If you plan to travel internationally*, you will need to get a COVID-19 viral test (regardless of vaccination status) before you travel by air into the United States. You must show your negative result to the airline before you board your flight.

*Fully vaccinated:* The viral test must be conducted on a sample taken no more than *3 days* before the flight’s departure from a foreign country if you show proof of being fully vaccinated against COVID-19.
Since it's already >3 days since you had the test, it won't be good enough. 

I would think that if it was within the timeframe it would be valid, why wouldn't it be? Most people are showing their covid test proof electronically these days, I think. They don't specifically say anywhere on their website that it has to be on paper.


----------



## james4beach

Spudd said:


> Since it's already >3 days since you had the test, it won't be good enough.


Good point. Yes, it would have to be a more recent test, I agree.

Can I just check my understanding of this 3 day timeline, including (more importantly) for getting back into Canada later -- which is when I risk getting stranded in the US.

Let's say a flight is scheduled for Wednesday at 4 pm. Does this mean it would be wise to get tested on Sunday at 5 pm?


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Good point. Yes, it would have to be a more recent test, I agree.
> 
> Can I just check my understanding of this 3 day timeline, including (more importantly) for getting back into Canada later -- which is when I risk getting stranded in the US.
> 
> Let's say a flight is scheduled for Wednesday at 4 pm. Does this mean it would be wise to get tested on Sunday at 5 pm?


Makes sense to me.


----------



## londoncalling

In the example above I would get the test later than 5 pm or even perhaps Monday morning. Depending on where you are going, access to testing and turnaround time you may be pushing it. I am not sure how stringent they are with the 3 day rule. Is it 72 hours? What happens if your flight is delayed a few hours between Sunday and Wednesday? But yes I agree as close to the 3 day limit the better if you are concerned about processing time.


----------



## Money172375

londoncalling said:


> In the example above I would get the test later than 5 pm or even perhaps Monday morning. Depending on where you are going, access to testing and turnaround time you may be pushing it. I am not sure how stringent they are with the 3 day rule. Is it 72 hours? What happens if your flight is delayed a few hours between Sunday and Wednesday? But yes I agree as close to the 3 day limit the better if you are concerned about processing time.


The 72 hour rule is tied to the Scheduled flight time. Not sure what happens if it’s delayed to the next day?

trouble is, occasionally you won’t get the test back within 72 hours, so I’d aim for 5pm Sunday. And also try to find a quicker NAAT somewhere else.


----------



## Money172375

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-omicron-more-to-do-1.6267817




am I missing something here? You’ll now be tested on arrival when coming into Canada by air (except from the US). Aren’t we already getting tested 72 hours before the flight?

so now, it’s a test 72 hours before the flight AND another test upon arrival (and you need to isolate while awaiting results)?

no mention who’s paying for the arrival test.


----------



## sags

People are testing negative before a flight and arriving testing positive.

In Amsterdam 2 flights of 600 passengers arriving from South Africa, 61 tested positive on arrival and some had the O variant.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> am I missing something here? You’ll now be tested on arrival when coming into Canada by air (except from the US). Aren’t we already getting tested 72 hours before the flight?


A developing situation for sure. It sounds like everyone will be tested again on arrival to Canada. Perhaps they trust the quality of US tests but tests from other countries could be more questionable. Or maybe it's because US flights are short, but other international flights (Europe, Asia-Pacific etc) are 8+ hours and maybe that's long enough for someone to get infected and become detectable during travel.

In any case it seems like a good idea. I wouldn't even mind it myself, even if I fly in from the US, if Canada requires another test at entry. Self-isolate just means to go home or to your hotel and wait for test results, which come pretty fast anyway. It's not a huge burden but could help us catch new cases slipping into the country.

Seems like a sensible measure. I still plan to go to the US though, at the moment.

I hope I don't eat my words, but anyone choosing to travel right now has to accept that there may be surprises in border rules, requirements to test and isolate. I am thinking this over myself and if it bothers me too much, I'll cancel my travel plans.


----------



## james4beach

Anyone with US <> Canada travel plans changing any of their plans yet?

Yesterday, Canada announced that everyone flying into Canada *except from the US* will have to take another covid test on arrival in Canada, and then self-isolate awaiting the results. It's possible in the coming days they may broaden this to also require Canadians coming from the US to self-isolate.

And the US might also tighten their entry requirements to Canadians, although they haven't announced that yet.

Tomorrow, Thursday, the US will announce some new travel restrictions. One change that might be coming is the US might require a negative COVID test taken within the 1 day before entry. Currently it's 3 days, so that would be a huge change. Another change being discussed is requiring people arriving into the US to take a covid test a few days after arrival into the US. There is even the remote possibility (according to journalists) that the US may start requiring quarantine upon entry, in which case, I guess virtually all tourism from Canada will stop.

My prediction is that the US will shorten the pre-entry test requirement from 3 days to 1 day, which I think makes scientific sense. But it certainly will leave all of us scrambling to try getting a rapid covid test in such a short timeframe.


----------



## Beaver101

U.S. to require all inbound foreign air passengers to get COVID test the day before

Looks like the rules (to the USA, not just out of country) are changing by the day, if not by the minutes. 
*
Edit:* I now see J4B has covered the details of that link with his earlier posts above.


----------



## james4beach

james4beach said:


> My prediction is that the US will shorten the pre-entry test requirement from 3 days to 1 day, which I think makes scientific sense. But it certainly will leave all of us scrambling to try getting a rapid covid test in such a short timeframe.


And this is exactly what happened


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> U.S. to require all inbound foreign air passengers to get COVID test the day before
> 
> Looks like the rules (to the USA, not just out of country) are changing by the day, if not by the minutes.
> 
> *Edit:* I now see J4B has covered the details of that link with his earlier posts above.


What kind of test?


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> What kind of test?


I assume it's a rapid antigen test, because nothing else is possible within 24 hours anyway


----------



## james4beach

Can anyone find a source that describes how the 24 hours is measured? Is it within 24 hours of the originally scheduled departure time? Or does it align to the day boundary?


----------



## Money172375

all I can find says “one day” before.

this site COVID-19 Information - Canada

links here









President Biden Announces New Actions to Protect Americans Against the Delta and Omicron Variants as We Battle COVID-19 this Winter | The White House


New Actions Aim to Get Americans Boosted for Even Greater Protection Against the Delta and Omicron Variants, Keep Schools and Businesses Open, and Help




www.whitehouse.gov


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> all I can find says “one day” before.
> 
> this site COVID-19 Information - Canada


Thanks, you're right. The US Embassy writes: "All inbound international travelers, including U.S. citizens and Legal Permanent Residents (LPRs), regardless of nationality or vaccination status must provide proof of a negative COVID-19 test one (1) day before their flight."

I think we can infer that what the CDC has already written here is going to apply. Here is their wording.
​The viral test must be conducted on a sample taken no more than 1 day before the flight’s departure from a foreign country​​


----------



## james4beach

My local testing clinic seems to think that the new requirement means you can get the rapid test any time on the day before departing for the US. So they think it doesn't mean a strict 24 hours.


----------



## ian

Still hoping for six to seven weeks in Panama and Costa Rica.


----------



## james4beach

I was just on the phone with Air Canada. There is concern about what might happen with travel lineups next week, at least for US flights. You might want to avoid travelling next week (Dec 6 - 10).

The issue is that the US just reduced this testing window, but this causes problems for the airline check-in process. There's a good chance that web checkins WON'T work and everyone will have to go to the check-in counter to show the agent their covid test results. So on a flight with 150 passengers, everyone lines up for the agent.


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> Still hoping for six to seven weeks in Panama and Costa Rica.


Which month are you targeting? I'm going to avoid all travel until at least January, hopefully there will be more clarity on what's happening with border restrictions and maybe with omicron.

I'd like to go somewhere warm.


----------



## Spudd

james4beach said:


> My local testing clinic seems to think that the new requirement means you can get the rapid test any time on the day before departing for the US. So they think it doesn't mean a strict 24 hours.


I read an article yesterday that said the same thing. The US is trying to be at least a bit flexible so it's any time on the calendar day beforehand. Sorry I don't have the link to hand.


----------



## james4beach

Spudd said:


> I read an article yesterday that said the same thing. The US is trying to be at least a bit flexible so it's any time on the calendar day beforehand. Sorry I don't have the link to hand.


I had to cancel my US trip. I also had to eat a $75 cancellation fee for my rapid test (in my province they are $120 to $150 each).

Those of you in provinces with $40 rapid tests are very lucky. But really this should be government subsidized, testing should be free as it is in other countries like the UK and US. Even in the US, the federal government subsidizes all PCR and rapid testing.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I had to cancel my US trip. I also had to eat a $75 cancellation fee for my rapid test (in my province they are $120 to $150 each).
> 
> Those of you in provinces with $40 rapid tests are very lucky. But really this should be government subsidized, testing should be free as it is in other countries like the UK and US. Even in the US, the federal government subsidizes all PCR and rapid testing.


premier Ford is taking heat in Ontario for not making these free.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> I had to cancel my US trip. I also had to eat a $75 cancellation fee for my rapid test (in my province they are $120 to $150 each).
> 
> Those of you in provinces with $40 rapid tests are very lucky. But really this should be government subsidized, testing should be free as it is in other countries like the UK and US. Even in the US, the federal government subsidizes all PCR and rapid testing.


I would call to see if your travel clinics/pharmacies have the rapid test. The one in my community (also a pharmacy) is doing the travel rapid tests for $30. They are small, and further in the suburbs, so less busy. I called the pharmacy and asked if they would sell me the test for home use (no report of course). They were great, they could only sell them in the complete boxes but were cheaper than other places. When picking them up, the pharmacist was fantastic, he need all the regulations for different countries. I just listened to him to talk to other customers. 

Maybe this is another option that is over looked is a local travel pharmacy or clinic.


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> Maybe this is another option that is over looked is a local travel pharmacy or clinic.


You're right, it's possible, but I'm going to guess you're not in BC. I have not heard of any rapid test in BC that's suitable for travel use and under $120

I've heard of the cheap ones you describe in AB, MB, and ON though.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> You're right, it's possible, but I'm going to guess you're not in BC. I have not heard of any rapid test in BC that's suitable for travel use and under $120
> 
> I've heard of the cheap ones you describe in AB, MB, and ON though.


it May not be $30 but perhaps less expensive than the chain stores. K found the travel pharmacy much more helpful than the shoppers


----------



## hboy54

Not clear to me why tests should be free to those traveling internationally on vacation. We seem to live in a world where everyone expects everything to be free and where nobody has to pay via personally being taxed.


----------



## Mechanic

We are contemplating driving down from Vancouver into the US and across Washington to come back to Canada and head to Calgary. It would be a non-stop 16hr trip, other than maybe an overnight stop depending on traffic volumes or getting tired. After reading the regs, it looks like we don't have to do any tests to cross into the US and none to return if we are within 72hrs.


----------



## Eder

I did the same trip a few weeks ago...dont even bother filling out the Arrive Can app.


----------



## Spudd

Eder said:


> I did the same trip a few weeks ago...dont even bother filling out the Arrive Can app.


My friend just crossed the border the other day and they gave her a hard time because she hadn't had internet access to fill out the ArriveCan app. She had to wait for someone to come along who would let her tether off their phone to fill it out. 

But then I saw in the news a day or two later that apparently they've now coached the border guards to accept verbal answers in lieu of the app. I would still fill out the app if possible though, it's bound to make it less of an ordeal at the actual border.


----------



## diharv

If you stop in the US and stay a night and/or stop and buy a few things, they will hassle you and may ask for the app crap and even a PCR test. Apparently they think the trip through Washington should be done nonstop, even at risk to you and your family or others on the road through the high mountain pass.


----------



## Mechanic

I didn't even know there was an app. I've never made the trip that way before as I've always used the Coquihalla but looks straightforward, other than a bit longer. Looks like you would come up through Cranbrook area to get back to Canada. I expect lot's of people will be thinking the same way, so could be busy.


----------



## Eder

If you are crossing due to bc flooding no pcr or arrive can is required
That was waived many weeks ago

at any rate this is a travel thread
I’m in Palm Springs area next few weeks
It’s nice that vaccinated people are not required to wear a mask indoors
Arizona also was nice no masks required

I left Vegas after only 2 days as they require masks at the poker tables
Takes most of the enjoyment awa for me and looking at the empty tables I think most other poker players agree


----------



## james4beach

hboy54 said:


> Not clear to me why tests should be free to those traveling internationally on vacation. We seem to live in a world where everyone expects everything to be free and where nobody has to pay via personally being taxed.


We need the tests for many purposes. For example if you're having a gathering of friends or family, it's helpful to have people take tests before hand.

This is possible in the UK and US thanks to free tests.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> We need the tests for many purposes. For example if you're having a gathering of friends or family, it's helpful to have people take tests before hand.
> 
> This is possible in the UK and US thanks to free tests.


I totally agree with you here. Home testing kits should be easier to obtain. Not for travel though or anything that requires it for public access in lieu of the vaccine passport (to many people would lie or do it wrong). Having access for those of us who are extra cautious before seeing people would be great. I get tested to see visit my parents (one in a home) almost weekly. We don't have people over often but we decide that my kids have missed their birthdays enough and allowed them each to have a few friends over (all of them and the family members they live with are all vaccinated and are very cautious like we are). We deemed it safer in our house then with in a public settings. So I swab each kid in their car before they come over. It's really expensive because I had to buy in bulk at $275 a box. We are doing the same at Xmas. 

I don't think the government should have to pay for these, but they should make them more accessible so you don't have to pay $275. I know if people could get individual test for $5-10 for home use, they would do it. The easier we make testing available the better.


----------



## Retired Peasant

Just because you don't pay for them directly, doesn't mean the tests are 'free'.
Going on vacation is a choice, not a requirement. Seems to me that if you can afford to fly internationally, you can afford a test.


----------



## ian

james4beach said:


> Which month are you targeting? I'm going to avoid all travel until at least January, hopefully there will be more clarity on what's happening with border restrictions and maybe with omicron.
> 
> I'd like to go somewhere warm.


Looking at mid/late January to early March. Not so sure now with O. Our preference is to fly to Costa Rica first. We can get a direct flight from Canada. Cannot get a direct flight to Panama unless we leave from Toronto. We prefer to avoid the US. We have spent two winters in Costa Rica, one in Panama. We prefer Costa Rica but we have friends in Panama that we would like to spend some time with.


----------



## Money172375

Sounds as though the borders are closing again. Reinstating travel advisories (which may nullify travel insurance). Possible reintroduction of quarantine upon entry for all. 



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-travel-restrictions-1.6285823


----------



## Eder

So happy we are not in Canada. With luck we wont return any time soon.

Where I Live, No One Cares About COVID - The Atlantic


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Sounds as though the borders are closing again. Reinstating travel advisories (which may nullify travel insurance). Possible reintroduction of quarantine upon entry for all.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-travel-restrictions-1.6285823


Yes apparently sources have told news agencies that all non essential foreign travel will be discouraged.

As you said, that might mean that travel medical insurance won't protect you in the US, depending on what status is given to the US and other countries.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> So happy we are not in Canada. With luck we wont return any time soon.


I don't understand the point you're making with the link, but I hope you're somewhere warm and pleasant.


----------



## Eder

My point was its nice that Covid down here is not much of a topic and life is very much normal. I'm sorry Canada is reinstating various restrictions that affect peoples lives up there and feel lucky to have left that hubris behind before borders are closed again .


----------



## Beaver101

^ Yep, and please stay away from TGH = Toronto General Hospital.


----------



## sags

Eder said:


> My point was its nice that Covid down here is not much of a topic and life is very much normal. I'm sorry Canada is reinstating various restrictions that affect peoples lives up there and feel lucky to have left that hubris behind before borders are closed again .


Does that mean there is no covid or they just don't concern themselves about it ?

I am thinking that given the Omicron infection rate, every country is going to get a full dose of infections, sooner or later.


----------



## ian

Eder said:


> My point was its nice that Covid down here is not much of a topic and life is very much normal. I'm sorry Canada is reinstating various restrictions that affect peoples lives up there and feel lucky to have left that hubris behind before borders are closed again .


No doubt there it is not as much as an issue in the US. Covid has been politicized. Too many people listening to politicians and certain faith leaders in preference to following the advice of medical/pandemic experts and scientists.

To date, US covid deaths are running at 2460 per million population. Canada is currently running at 785 covid deaths per million population.

The Canadian deaths per million population attributable to covid has been averaging 30-33 percent of the US number over the past year. There is a reason for that.


----------



## Eder

Yes for those that put avoiding Covid above most other things Canada would offer better sanctuary. Others may have different values to pursue.


----------



## damian13ster

For those avoiding Covid above most other things China would probably be better. Although other than freezing cold there really isn't that much difference between the two countries recently - same values.

Luckily one can still travel to central america to enjoy life!


----------



## ian

damian13ster said:


> For those avoiding Covid above most other things China would probably be better. Although other than freezing cold there really isn't that much difference between the two countries recently - same values.


I would not put much stock in the numbers from China or those from several other countries.









Coronavirus Update (Live): 115,549,034 Cases and 2,565,030 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer


Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...




www.worldometers.info


----------



## ian

Eder said:


> Yes for those that put avoiding Covid above most other things Canada would offer better sanctuary. Others may have different values to pursue.


I believe it is because we have have fewer far right wing 'fruitcakes' and far few nutty conspiracy theorists per capita.


----------



## Eder

We have no lack of fruitcakes...or conspiracy theorists...or intolerance


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> To date, US covid deaths are running at 2460 per million population. Canada is currently running at 785 covid deaths per million population.


In Canada, we've protected our population much better than both the US and Europe. We've been doing quite well through covid with much lower death rates per capita.

America's response to the pandemic has been a total disaster. There's nothing to admire there.


----------



## james4beach

Here are some interesting stats released by PHAC

Foreign travellers have to show a negative covid test (PCR) before boarding flights into Canada. But how many infected people are slipping through? This can happen if the test was done improperly or if the person just caught covid recently, since PCR tests can't pick up an infection in the first few days.

The PHAC stats from September - November show that of hundreds of thousands of arrival tests performed:
*0.14% of vaccinated travellers were positive
0.63% of not-vaccinated (or not fully vaccinated) travellers were positive*

I think these results are very interesting. It shows that the policy for full vaccination + testing before departure was extremely effective. Only 0.14% of people turned out to be positive, virtually nil.

It also means that if you're sitting on an international flight where everyone is vaccinated and passed the pre-departure test, basically NOBODY on board has covid. Add the masks on top of that and it seems very unlikely you can catch covid this way.

Hopefully the government continues with the same (vaccination + PCR test) requirement as it seems to do the trick.


----------



## sags

The math involved in large numbers.

We hear about a flight arriving from somewhere that has 10 infected passengers on it and think......oh no, flights are arriving with 10 infected passengers on them.

But the reality is that thousands of flights are arriving with no infected passengers on them.

Only the flight with the infected passengers gets into the media.

I do think that when a country has a new variant such as South Africa, it is wise to stop flights until we know more about the variant.

The Omicron variant did in fact arrive here from people who arrived from South Africa.

If it can be totally stopped is another story but at least we can buy time to figure out what it is and what to do.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> The Omicron variant did in fact arrive here from people who arrived from South Africa.
> 
> If it can be totally stopped is another story but at least we can buy time to figure out what it is and what to do.


That's true sags, but you have to remember that it's impossible to completely close the border.

Airline crews are constantly travelling around the world and are excluded from just about all checks. The Canada/US border has quite a few exclusions, and that's just out of necessity given our massive border and inter dependency with the US.

I do agree that buying time is good, and we probably "bought" a few days of time with this event. But it's not like we're buying any more than a few days lead.


----------



## sags

Supply chains need to be kept open, and essential workers need to stay on the job, otherwise we could end up quarantining ourselves and starving to death.

But unnecessary travel to lie on a tropical beach, or go to South Africa to attend a birthday party......just can't be allowed right now.

So far, the travelers I have seen on the news complaining about restrictions........not one was traveling for essential purposes.


----------



## sags

My wife said they showed on the local news that people are still flying out to the US for vacations.

I remember a couple weeks ago, a young couple was complaining to the CBC in an interview that they had gone to South Africa to go surfing.

They complained that Foreign Affairs told them........"we warned you not to go, and we will not be sending an aircraft to pick you up, so you are on your own" and hung up the phone.

They said the guy isn't answering the phone when they call.........LOL.

It reminded me of this movie scene.


----------



## Money172375

One could argue that if you have solid insurance, it’s safer in parts of the US than it is in Ontario. More hospitals , lower case rates. (Their time will come). If you’re driving, the risk is even lower.

I think the advisory is the government‘s way of saying….”you’re on your own”. We ain’t coming to get you or offer assistance if you need to quarantine outside of Canada, or can’t find a flight.


----------



## Money172375

I’m sure it’s happened, but i don’t recall reading any stories about Canadians dying or getting hospitalized for COVID in the US.

is there any data?


----------



## Eder

Lots of Albertans & BC people in Palm Springs....haven't seen any dead ones.


----------



## Retiredguy

Eder said:


> Lots of Albertans & BC people in Palm Springs....haven't seen any dead ones.


Just flew home from PS after 2 month visit, here for xmas, and intend to drive back in early Jan. California has reinstituted masks for indoors and our friends still there are taking extra precautions, no group dinners etc however we expect to feel just as safe in PS as we do in Vancouver.


----------



## Eder

Nice...drive safely...roads were a ***** when we came down. We'll stay here till after Christmas then hopefully down the Baja to warmer climes....its a bit chilly here only got to 18 today.


----------



## james4beach

Thinking I might go to Palm Springs, or maybe Hawaii, after the current situation stabilizes.

A friend of mine (Aussie citizen) is about to depart to Australia tonight. I'm so jealous. Only citizens are allowed to enter the country.


----------



## Eder

Hawaii has been very safe from Covid ... shitty food and expensive though.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> I’m sure it’s happened, but i don’t recall reading any stories about Canadians dying or getting hospitalized for COVID in the US.
> 
> is there any data?


 ... even there was. Then what, when travel advisories have been issued? Basically, you're on your own. And if you're stucked, then it's your own fault at this point.


----------



## kcowan2000

For the third straight year, we have flown Westjet to PV, and for two,of those years, we flew back with overnight stays on American carriers. Main impact was extra cost and hassle. This year our return flight is scheduled for April 30th. We have had minimal risk by using masks in the outdoors even when there was a panic going on in Canada.

We expect many of our Canadian snowbird friends will,forfeit their deposits and stay home again. The only direct impact was the cancellation of our European trip in 2020 which we have rescheduled for 2022.

We consider ourselves lucky to have had so,little disruption to our normal lives.

(We have little confidence in our socialist government for implementing logical restrictions.)


----------



## HappilyRetired

We're driving to Florida right after Christmas and staying for a month. We have a rental on the ocean and we tend to keep to ourselves other than to buy groceries so we expect/hope that things go relatively smoothly with low risk.

We stayed home last year but we're not getting any younger (I'm 59) and we assume that our window of opportunity for extended travel is 12 - 15 remaining years. Everyone knows a spry 84-year old but for every one of them there are another dozen that can barely muster up the energy to get off the couch.


----------



## Eder

Well...heading down the Baja in the morning with 6 other Canadian motor homes...good times. 1st stop...wine country south of Tecate! Meanwhile I read on the G&M many Canadians want to again close the border...wtf!


----------



## Eder

A good read for those sick of never ending Canadian covid horror.









Come on Down


A Canadian Refugee In Mexico Come on Down! A number of years ago, I saw a cartoon that was funny because it completely reversed the conventional perspective. The caption said ‘Alien Abduction’ and the sketch showed a couple of ******** stuffing an alien into the trunk of a car. In some respects...




comeondown.mx


----------



## Eder

And another reason to come out from under the bed

As Mark Twain once said said, “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one’s lifetime.”


----------



## Money172375

It seems there was a quiet change to land entry procedures.
before I left for Florida, I did extensive research. At the time, it seems you would be allowed to enter with a positive COVID test and be ordered into home quarantine.

it now seems that you can enter but will be subject to a $5,000 fine. The web page appears to have been updated on Dec 24. 

now, it says in bold, that a positive test is not a valid entry test. I’m quiet certain I would have noticed this before I left.






COVID-19: Travel, testing and borders - Travel.gc.ca


COVID-19 border measures have ended as of October 1, 2022 for all travellers entering or returning to Canada by air, land or sea.




travel.gc.ca





it’s not a huge deal for me, as I can stay in Florida with family as I’ve been doing. But something to be aware of.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> it’s not a huge deal for me, as I can stay in Florida with family as I’ve been doing. But something to be aware of.


How are you going to get a PCR test when it's time to return to Canada? You might have to wait until this wave subsides. I would imagine it's just about impossible to get any kind of appointment.

Stay safe out there, hope you're able to stay away from people. Best to get KN95 masks if you can. The Florida numbers are off the charts and hospital admissions are surging.


----------



## Money172375

I have one scheduled tomorrow and Friday. You can get an appointment at the local cvs and Walgreens which are on every other corner. I haven’t looked at appointments lately. I booked last week and there were a lot of appointments available.

i haven’t been anywhere except the pool, beach and grocery store. I could get groceries delivered but haven’t done that yet.


----------



## damian13ster

Yeah, no issue getting appointments in most places in the States. If you want to check - just go online and try. 
Not every country failed with procurement and distribution.
Going to the States in 4th week of February. Hopefully they either drop the requirement or there is more tests available


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> I have one scheduled tomorrow and Friday. You can get an appointment at the local cvs and Walgreens which are on every other corner. I haven’t looked at appointments lately. I booked last week and there were a lot of appointments available.


I booked two of these myself back when I thought I was going to California (but I cancelled that trip). The issue I was concerned about was the turnaround time -- when does one get the results back? It was only 2-3 days on average back in November, before the new wave started, but I would imagine the labs have slowed down with the current intense load of testing.

If you can, try to get a Walgreens Rapid Diagnostic (ID NOW) as this is a NAAT test. Those are much faster than PCR tests because I think they are done on site. The other PCR tests are sent by daily courier out to a lab, which adds delay and uncertainty.

The last time I checked, Canada still allowed entry with NAAT tests but you'll want to double check that of course. Also make sure you are not getting a rapid antigen tests, as those are not accepted.


----------



## londoncalling

I would suggest you get your test at CVS instead of Walgreens.

Full Disclosure: own CVS do not own Walgreens. 

Safe travels


----------



## Money172375

just back from my cvs test. short 10 min wait as people picked up prescriptions. Drive through service. Didn’t ask about residency, citizenship. Didn’t ask for ID or insurance. Handed in my email confirmation and was provided a kit. now we wait. 
apparently cvs gets their tests picked up at around 4pm by UPS for delivery to the lab.

Rumour is that Walgreens does their NAAT testing on site. Appointment with them tomorrow.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> apparently cvs gets their tests picked up at around 4pm by UPS for delivery to the lab.
> 
> Rumour is that Walgreens does their NAAT testing on site. Appointment with them tomorrow.


Yes the PCR tests have a daily courier pickup. Did they give you any estimate for when the PCR results can be expected?

I do believe NAAT is done on site, and is a reason it's faster. I had the same approach as you, booked two tests like this to maximize odds of getting a result back in time.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Yes the PCR tests have a daily courier pickup. Did they give you any estimate for when the PCR results can be expected?
> 
> I do believe NAAT is done on site, and is a reason it's faster. I had the same approach as you, booked two tests like this to maximize odds of getting a result back in time.


Not really. 1-3 days


----------



## Money172375

Had an accepted NAAT test this morning at 11:30am In Florida. Results received at 1pm same day. Negative for COVID.

as a non-resident, non-citizen, I was able to get a pcr test done and results in less than 2 hours.

back in ontario, when pcr tests were allowed for the general public, my friend waited 8 days for a test result that was completed at a hospital while his 3 month old baby had respiratory issues.

quite the difference in testing capability.

I’ll add I wasn’t asked for ID or insurance. Just an email, name and birthday.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Had an accepted NAAT test this morning at 11:30am In Florida. Results received at 1pm same day. Negative for COVID.
> 
> as a non-resident, non-citizen, I was able to get a pcr test done and results in less than 2 hours.


That's great! Glad to hear you got the results, and so fast


----------



## damian13ster

england drops testing requirement. To drop covid passes Jan 26


----------



## londoncalling

No point having restrictions and testing if its going to interfere with our social lives. Such hypocrisy all over the world with a do as I say not as I do edicts from elected officials. Humans are an interesting lot. 

Boris Johnson admits he was at No 10 party – but claims he didn’t know it was a party (yahoo.com)


----------



## Beaver101

londoncalling said:


> No point having restrictions and testing if its going to interfere with our social lives. Such hypocrisy all over the world with a do as I say not as I do edicts from elected officials. Humans are an interesting lot.
> 
> Boris Johnson admits he was at No 10 party – but claims he didn’t know it was a party (yahoo.com)


 ... hope our country "leaders" don't follow the footsteps of Boris from the UK. This grandpa should be babysitting his kids than a country.


----------



## Eder

I think most of bc is down here in the baja
Probably 80% of campers at mulege / loreto are from there
Places are as busy as I’ve ever seen


----------



## Money172375

Money172375 said:


> Had an accepted NAAT test this morning at 11:30am In Florida. Results received at 1pm same day. Negative for COVID.
> 
> as a non-resident, non-citizen, I was able to get a pcr test done and results in less than 2 hours.
> 
> back in ontario, when pcr tests were allowed for the general public, my friend waited 8 days for a test result that was completed at a hospital while his 3 month old baby had respiratory issues.
> 
> quite the difference in testing capability.





Beaver101 said:


> ... hope our country "leaders" don't follow the footsteps of Boris from the UK. This grandpa should be babysitting his kids than a country.


not that I travel much, but I think this has served its purpose…..poorly. my recent trip was to assist with a flood cleanup for elderly family. I think positivity rates for people Entering Canada peaked at 2%…was normally half that. It’s an unnecessary Hassle at this point given how prevalent COVID is. At a minimum, boosted Canadian citizens should be exempt. Let them test themselves within a few days of arrival and submit results.


----------



## Saintor

I went to Cuba in November, before the Omicron madness. I wouldn't go now not because of the virus (let it flow, let it go is my opinion) but because of the way contagious people are being [mis-]treated and this thing is more contagious than it was. Also I reserved for March a very nice two floors condo at Canmore, AB the same we had last year.


----------



## james4beach

Saintor said:


> I went to Cuba in November, before the Omicron madness. I wouldn't go now not because of the virus (let it flow, let it go is my opinion) but because of the way contagious people are being [mis-]treated and this thing is more contagious than it was. Also I reserved for March a very nice two floors condo at Canmore, AB the same we had last year.


Neat, what was the experience in Cuba like? I'd love to hear how things operate over there... what is an all inclusive resort like during the pandemic?

How did you get the PCR test to be able to return to Canada? Did the Cuban resort have testing capabilities or was it complicated?


----------



## Saintor

It was a large resort and they had PCR tests available for only US$30. It was a very pleasant trip.


----------



## londoncalling

Money172375 said:


> not that I travel much, but I think this has served its purpose…..poorly.


That was my point as well. Why put in rules that are contradictory, constantly changing and ignored by those implementing them. December 2020 was no different. Like most rules and restrictions they seem to punish only those that follow them.


----------



## james4beach

Saintor said:


> It was a large resort and they had PCR tests available for only US$30. It was a very pleasant trip.


Great to hear. I was in Cuba as the pandemic started in 2020. Sunwing flew empty planes down south to come pick us up.

That pre-pandemic trip gave me a whole new perspective and appreciation of vacations. It's amazing how many people at the resort were complaining about pointless things. I remember one couple was complaining there wasn't enough cake. Can you imagine! They're about to fly back to the Canadian winter, be stuck at home for the next year or two and while in paradise they're complaining there isn't enough cake.

I'd love to go to Cuba again. Maybe once this current wave subsides. Trying to decide between California, Hawaii, or maybe Cuba.


----------



## m3s

james4beach said:


> I remember one couple was complaining there wasn't enough cake.


Reminds me of american tourists in europe


----------



## HappilyRetired

We just came back visited friends in West Palm Beach for a couple days who own a condo in a 55+ neighborhood. We don't want to buy but there are a few people looking for responsible renters every winter. Our friends have been winter residents for several years plus we met a few residents so now we're a known entity for those who are looking for tenants.

Assuming no border issues we're heading back to Canada at the end of January, but we might come back for another month in March.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> not that I travel much, but I think this has served its purpose…..poorly. my recent trip was to assist with a flood cleanup for elderly family. I think positivity rates for people Entering Canada peaked at 2%…was normally half that. It’s an unnecessary Hassle at this point given how prevalent COVID is. At a minimum, boosted Canadian citizens should be exempt. Let them test themselves within a few days of arrival and submit results.


 ... regardless I'm certain the majority of British taxpayers would prefer Boris continue with his private job of babysitting his kids than running a country.


----------



## Beaver101

londoncalling said:


> That was my point as well. Why put in rules that are contradictory, constantly changing and ignored by those implementing them. December 2020 was no different. * Like most rules and restrictions they seem to punish only those that follow them.*


 ... ROFL.


----------



## Money172375

I’m back from the land of the free.

crossed the Border in Windsor by land. 2 cars ahead of us. Showed my passport. Was asked for test proof. Made my declarations and was sent on my way. Total time with the guard was under 2 mins.
didn’t ask To see my arriveCan QR code.


----------



## Eder

Mexico Removes All COVID-19 Entry Requirements Including Health Form


Mexico has offically dropped all COVID-19 entry requirements, including the health questionaire travelers had to complete




www.traveloffpath.com


----------



## ian

Maybe,,,just maybe seven weeks or eight weeks in Greece/Cyprus this spring and early summer just bouncing around at will. Been on our list since the start of covid. 

April/May/June is as far as we dare to dream at the moment.


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> Maybe,,,just maybe seven weeks or eight weeks in Greece/Cyprus this spring and early summer just bouncing around at will. Been on our list since the start of covid.
> 
> April/May/June is as far as we dare to dream at the moment.


I'm starting to think that if this wave is reaching a peak, we might get back down to low Covid numbers in March... just guessing though.


----------



## HappilyRetired

We just got back from Florida today (driving). We got a free test at Walgreens along the way (drive thru, took 2 minutes), they emailed the results, we showed the results at the border and were through in 2-3 minutes. Easy.


----------



## james4beach

HappilyRetired said:


> We just got back from Florida today (driving). We got a free test at Walgreens along the way (drive thru, took 2 minutes), they emailed the results, we showed the results at the border and were through in 2-3 minutes. Easy.


Do you know what kind of Walgreens test you got? They have a NAAT (called ID NOW) which is really fast, but it's not available everywhere. The Walgreens PCR can take several days since it has to be sent away to a lab.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Do you know what kind of Walgreens test you got? They have a NAAT (called ID NOW) which is really fast, but it's not available everywhere. The Walgreens PCR can take several days since it has to be sent away to a lab.


We got the ID Now (NAAT) test. The available tests are on each location's website. You can make a reservation up to 4 days in advance for their drive thru. They promised results in less than 24 hours, my wife got hers in an hour, mine took longer, about 14 hours. Show up, swab, put it in the package, and return to the pharmacist. You don't even leave your car.


----------



## james4beach

HappilyRetired said:


> We got the ID Now (NAAT) test. The available tests are on each location's website. You can make a reservation up to 4 days in advance for their drive thru. They promised results in less than 24 hours, my wife got hers in an hour, mine took longer, about 14 hours. Show up, swab, put it in the package, and return to the pharmacist. You don't even leave your car.


Thanks, great to hear this and some timelines you saw. Either way, excellent that it's less than 24 hours.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Thanks, great to hear this and some timelines you saw. Either way, excellent that it's less than 24 hours.


Also very convenient that they emailed the results as we were driving and didn't have to hang around the testing location.


----------



## Money172375

HappilyRetired said:


> We just got back from Florida today (driving). We got a free test at Walgreens along the way (drive thru, took 2 minutes), they emailed the results, we showed the results at the border and were through in 2-3 minutes. Easy.


How long for the results? We got ours in 90 mins From Walgreens. CVS took 44 hours. Amazing service for non-residents/citizens. Can’t even get a test in Ontario.


----------



## Money172375

Money172375 said:


> How long for the results? We got ours in 90 mins From Walgreens. CVS took 44 hours. Amazing service for non-residents/citizens. Can’t even get a test in Ontario.


sorry, just saw your response for the timelines. I was prepared to stop at a UPS or Office Depot to print the results, but they came so fast, I was able to print them where we were staying. I know electronic versions are accepted, but I wanted backup.

I found Walgreens faster and easier. I did get the results from CVS in 44 hours, but it was a simple pass/fail notification. it didn’t have all the details needed for cross border. To get them from CVS, you need to register for their web portal. And they don’t allow access to minors on the web portal. There are workarounds but The Walgreens NAAT is superior in every way.


----------



## Beaver101

Delta asks DOJ to put unruly passengers on no-fly list

I wonder if this is going to create an anti-unruly-fly-something movement. This would be a good model for Canadian airlines to follow.


----------



## ian

Doing some preliminary planning for six weeks of island hopping Greece this May/June. Not booking anything yet. Early days yet however this is the target.


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> Doing some preliminary planning for six weeks of island hopping Greece this May/June. Not booking anything yet. Early days yet however this is the target.


Are you looking at Air Canada by any chance?

They were extremely lenient with my last cancellation. I'm wondering if we can depend on that kind of cancellation flexibility for the next few months. Any thoughts? Because I am tempted to start booking some flights now.


----------



## londoncalling

WestJet further extends schedule reductions by 20 per cent through March due to prolonged travel policies and restrictions | WestJet official site


----------



## damian13ster

This country is straight up run by morons.

Have to go to US for medical checkup. Will be there for a combined of 25h.
There is a testing requirement for molecular test to get back to Canada and the test has to be within 72h.
Sure, whatever. Only rich people can afford to go to doctor in a timely manner - I get it. willing to pay.
Now here is a catch though: that test can't be taken in Canada.
That's what border agent says, but he is not able to point to any such statement on government Canada website, rules, or regulations.


----------



## ian

james4beach said:


> Are you looking at Air Canada by any chance?
> 
> They were extremely lenient with my last cancellation. I'm wondering if we can depend on that kind of cancellation flexibility for the next few months. Any thoughts? Because I am tempted to start booking some flights now.


We are looking at Air Canada and Transat. We want direct flights, then change planes in Athens for Crete.

Not booking anything until a 7-10 days prior to departure. Our past experience with AC is that their prices will go up from the current $828 (from Toronto) to $1050 as it gets closer to our preferred dates. Not so with Transat @ $798.. At least not for our previous two trips but they were in to Athens and home through London or Paris. I am not depending on anyone's flexible cancelation policy unless it is a full refund. Not interested in a credit. We are willing to pay a premium in order to book closer to blast off.

It is a little different for us. Our time is not restricted so selecting a better fare, either going or coming home, by moving the date a little is not an issue. Who knows. Perhaps this covid business has prompted some changes to their respective flight revenue maximization logarithms.


----------



## Money172375

damian13ster said:


> This country is straight up run by morons.
> 
> Have to go to US for medical checkup. Will be there for a combined of 25h.
> There is a testing requirement for molecular test to get back to Canada and the test has to be within 72h.
> Sure, whatever. Only rich people can afford to go to doctor in a timely manner - I get it. willing to pay.
> Now here is a catch though: that test can't be taken in Canada.
> That's what border agent says, but he is not able to point to any such statement on government Canada website, rules, or regulations.


Look for a NAAT test at Walgreens, I got my test for free in 90 mins.


----------



## damian13ster

Money172375 said:


> Look for a NAAT test at Walgreens, I got my test for free in 90 mins.


Is that the ID now test?


----------



## ian

Money172375 said:


> Look for a NAAT test at Walgreens, I got my test for free in 90 mins.


Our friends just returned from Fort Lauderdale ten days ago. Same thing. They got their shot at Walgrens. Free. No problem whatsoever. They had to time the test properly because they were connecting in Seattle. That meant that the times had to start based on second flight to Canada vs the first.


----------



## Money172375

damian13ster said:


> Is that the ID now test?
> 
> View attachment 22775


Yes, NAAT is a rapid Pcr. Brand name IDNOw. Just enter the US address of your doctor and enter your Canadian DL number. And select the state you’re in. Should be able to book a few days in advance. They didn’t ask for anything at the testing window other than my name and phone.


----------



## damian13ster

Money172375 said:


> Yes, NAAT is a rapid Pcr. Brand name IDNOw. Just enter the US address of your doctor and enter your Canadian DL number. And select the state you’re in. Should be able to book a few days in advance. They didn’t ask for anything at the testing window other than my name and phone.


Thank you. Just checked and you can book up to 3 days ahead. Will give it a try.
Not accepting Canadian tests done within last 72h is pure idiocy though.

Thank god that down south they didn't mess up procurement and that there are members like you who are willing to help! Appreciate it


----------



## ian

damian13ster said:


> Thank you. Just checked and you can book up to 3 days ahead. Will give it a try.
> Not accepting Canadian tests done within last 72h is pure idiocy though.
> 
> Thank god that down south they didn't mess up procurement and that there are members like you who are willing to help! Appreciate it


It depends where you are in the US. Our friends had no issue in Fort Lauderdale. Their daughter was returning home from the Boston area at the same time. She had to drive to New Hampshire and pay $200. USD for her test om order to get it done in the prescribed time frame before her flight.


----------



## Money172375

I’m in Germany. Last minute trip to assist a friend for experimental medical treatment.

for those that think we have it rough in Canada. Here, cant stay at a hotel unless you have 3 does or provide a neg test daily. Also, the front desk told me that my 3 ply mask would not be allowed in restaurants. needs to be n95. Unfortunately in the rush to book this trip, we neglected to look at hotel rules. More focused on gaining entry. My friend only has two doses. 

and all this time, I thought a neg test was required to board a plane in Canada. Agents at The Toronto airport never asked to see our COVID tests. They did ask for vax certs.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Money172375 said:


> and all this time, I thought a neg test was required to board a plane in Canada. Agents at The Toronto airport never asked to see our COVID tests. They did ask for vax certs.


Whether a neg test is required to board depends upon the country of destination. For example, to fly to the Philippines right now requires a list of things including proof of vaccination (acceptable proof depends on country of origin), and a negative RT-PCR test within 48 hours of flight. That is the most rigorous test and takes, usually, 48-72 hours. As near as I can tell, the only reasonable sure way to meet that standard in BC is to pay $900 in Vancouver (results in 12 hours) or $950 in Nanaimo (results in 24 hours). The cost is $150-200 if able to wait 48-72 hours.


----------



## Money172375

Mukhang pera said:


> Whether a neg test is required to board depends upon the country of destination. For example, to fly to the Philippines right now requires a list of things including proof of vaccination (acceptable proof depends on country of origin), and a negative RT-PCR test within 48 hours of flight. That is the most rigorous test and takes, usually, 48-72 hours. As near as I can tell, the only reasonable sure way to meet that standard in BC is to pay $900 in Vancouver (results in 12 hours) or $950 in Nanaimo (results in 24 hours). The cost is $150-200 if able to wait 48-72 hours.


Is it not 48 hours from scheduled departure time and not arrival time?

Side note, I got a rapid pcr in Florida in 90 mins,


----------



## diharv

We got our PCR test results in 24 hours in Huatulco in November. $900 for a PCR test in Vancouver under the guise of speeding up the results? I thought there were anti gouging laws. Some serious profiteering going on here in Canada for what is probably a $5 test that yields results within hours. Alot of labs are going to miss this cash cow if it ever ends.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Money172375 said:


> Is it not 48 hours from scheduled departure time and not arrival time?


Yes, perhaps I could have offered a more fulsome explanation of "a negative RT-PCR test within 48 hours of flight". The Philippine government requires the test to be taken no more than 48 hours before the flight. The _punctum temporis_ is when the test sample is given. It cannot be taken sooner than 48 hours in advance, regardless of when the results come out.


----------



## Money172375

border changes coming?









Canada to make changes to COVID border restrictions next week-official


Canada is reviewing its pandemic-related border restrictions and will likely announce changes next week, as the worst of a Omicron variant-driven wave appears to have passed, Canada's health minister said on Friday.




www.reuters.com


----------



## damian13ster

CTV claims changes aren't coming until end of the month.
Guess science says March 1 testing is not beneficial, but Feb 28 it is extremely important in fighting the pandemic


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> border changes coming?


Sounds like you might not have to worry about this testing on your return to Canada


----------



## diharv

damian13ster said:


> CTV claims changes aren't coming until end of the month.
> Guess science says March 1 testing is not beneficial, but Feb 28 it is extremely important in fighting the pandemic


They could drop it tomorrow but prefer to drag it out for as long as possible. The Fed's favourite line of "decision in the coming weeks" is used alot, ie the Huawei 5G decision.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Sounds like you might not have to worry about this testing on your return to Canada


Maybe. Plan is to return Thursday, I must say, there are testing centres here on almost every city block.


----------



## ian

Friends returned from FLL ten days ago. They had their PCR done for free at a local Walgrens.

Their daughter was in the Boston area (maynard) at the same time. She ended up driving north to New Hampshire to get her test. $200 USD in a timely manner to fly home to Vancouver.

We priced cost and availability of PCR tests in Athens. Greek Gov't imposed a cap of 60euro on the test. Prices that we saw for on line booking in the Athens area ranged from 40E to 60E.

Agree, some labs are making out like bandits on PCR tests. Including Canadian labs.


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> Agree, some labs are making out like bandits on PCR tests. Including Canadian labs.


Like bandits for sure. In BC, even the rapid antigen tests are expensive and I paid something like $100 before a trip to the US in December. Then I had to cancel the trip, and forfeited about $50 on that lab test... they didn't even do anything. Thankfully all my other costs were refundable though, and I'm appreciative of the excellent customer services from both Air Canada and Manulife (insurance).

As a quick aside... and yes this is a plug for service that I think is great: Air Canada has treated me well through the whole pandemic. I've had quite a few AC flights in the last two years, and I like their professionalism, precision on the plane (excellent flight attendants and other staff) plus friendliness at the phone center. This isn't an easy job and AC have exceeded my expectations under difficult circumstances. I've flown many airlines in many countries in my life, and I think I can objectively say that AC is doing an excellent job including with pandemic complications.


I think testing for travel is actually a good measure. Letting an infectious person onto a crowded flight would be disastrous, but a simple rapid test before flying can help prevent this. We just need to have the tests available for this. Why is the UK able to get tests into everyone's hands, and we can't?

Clearly the PCR tests aren't going to be feasible going forward but I do think we should have pre-flight rapid testing. This will reduce the chances of having an infectious person on the flight, which is in everyone's interests, including the airlines!


----------



## Johnny199r

Was going to go to Mexico this week, but my wife has a medical appointment, plus she was worried about a positive test down there and getting stuck.

The testing regime to get back into Canada no longer serves a useful purpose and has turned into a farce.

I can't wait for all of this nonsense to disappear so I can regularly travel to the U.S and elsewhere.


----------



## Money172375

Cases are still high in germany but testing centres are everywhere. Free rapid tests for citizens. Testing for travellers runs from about $60-$200 cdn based on response time. Likely booking s test tomorrow. Unlimited selection.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Cases are still high in germany but testing centres are everywhere. *Free rapid tests for citizens. * Testing for travellers runs from about $60-$200 cdn based on response time. Likely booking s test tomorrow. Unlimited selection.


 ... are those testing centres run by the government? I presume not given your 3rd sentence. 

Anyhow, free RATs for Ontarians now IF you can get your hands on one. And here's supposedly the "proper" way (via video) to do those self-RATs - at least 2 tests 48 hours apart.

Ontario science table says different swabbing method can make rapid test more accurate



> _...
> *Juni added that rapid test users should remember to start with the mouth, “otherwise it’s just a bit disgusting.”*
> 
> If someone does the swab properly and still gets a negative test, the science table warns that it doesn’t necessarily mean the person is clear of infection.
> 
> “You still should not rely on a single negative test,” Juni said. *“You should repeat tests and have two tests, perhaps 48 hours or more apart.”*
> 
> A positive result using a rapid test can be considered accurate._


 ... I'm LMAO with the reminder of "start with the mouth first" ...


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ... are those testing centres run by the government? I presume not given your 3rd sentence.
> 
> Anyhow, free RATs for Ontarians now IF you can get your hands on one. And here's supposedly the "proper" way (via video) to do those self-RATs - at least 2 tests 48 hours apart.
> 
> Ontario science table says different swabbing method can make rapid test more accurate
> 
> ... I'm LMAO with the reminder of "start with the mouth first" ...


My pcr test taken next to Pearson when I left was mouth and nose. I said “same swab?“. She said yes. I said “mouth first?”

she gave me a look that only a nurse can.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ... are those testing centres run by the government? I presume not given your 3rd sentence.
> 
> Anyhow, free RATs for Ontarians now IF you can get your hands on one. And here's supposedly the "proper" way (via video) to do those self-RATs - at least 2 tests 48 hours apart.
> 
> Ontario science table says different swabbing method can make rapid test more accurate
> 
> ... I'm LMAO with the reminder of "start with the mouth first" ...


Can’t tell who’s running the clinic. I don’t think they are government run…..they all have different websites. I believe they are private. I guess they get refunded the cost of the test if you can prove your a citizen.


----------



## damian13ster

For those who used Walgreens:
I just made an appointment at 11:45am. What are the odds of getting results before end of the day? Have a flight back 4am following day.

Here is what popped up after the appointment:

*During your appointment*

DO NOT EXIT YOUR VEHICLE. DO NOT GO INTO THE STORE.
Follow signs and instructions at the testing location.
Be ready to display your confirmation number, photo ID, and insurance card or voucher against your closed window.
A Walgreens team member will tell you when to open your window so they can capture additional information while you stay in your car.
A Walgreens pharmacy team member will then provide directions on how to self-administer a nasal swab and collect your test sample.
Are they genuinely asking for all of those pieces of ID?


----------



## Money172375

I got my result in 90 mins from walgreeens. It was the IDNOW test….which is a rapid pcr. Not a regular pcr. They didn’t ask me for any documentation. Just my name and phone number.


----------



## Money172375

Pcr test in Germany cost me 30 euros and got results in 30 hours. But…..I’ve extended my trip, so it was a waste of money.


----------



## damian13ster

Money172375 said:


> I got my result in 90 mins from walgreeens. It was the IDNOW test….which is a rapid pcr. Not a regular pcr. They didn’t ask me for any documentation. Just my name and phone number.


Great, because I need it by eod. Glad to hear about the IDs. I got SSN, but both passport and driver's license are foreign.
Yes, taking the ID-NOW. Appointments aren't easy to get so driving 30min out of the city


----------



## Money172375

Some questions that you may have experience with.

1. who is responsible for checking the pcr test? The airline at departure or Canada border patrol at entry?

2. If the latter, do the results need to be English Or French?

my first test in Germany (which I didn’t use since we had to switch travel dates last minute) came in German and English. This was explained during the booking test. Test taken in Frankfurt.

just booked my second pcr. This is in a smaller, rural town. Their website was all German and I suspect the test results will be entirely in German. Didn’t pay for this one online. You can pay at time of test.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> 1. who is responsible for checking the pcr test? The airline at departure or Canada border patrol at entry?


Things may have changed since I looked at this, but ArriveCAN is the place where you upload your PCR test result. That goes directly to the government.

The airline will want to see that you have this test result before you are allowed to board. But I'm sure it will be enough to show the test result to your airline once you're at the airport, they can either look at your screen, or maybe you can show them that you've entered into into ArriveCAN.






Use ArriveCAN for a faster border experience - Canada.ca


Travellers arriving in Canada at certain airports can save time at the border by submitting their customs and immigration declaration in advance using this app.




www.canada.ca


----------



## damian13ster

Today filled out arrivecan form. They just asked if I have a test result. Did not ask to upload them. Didn't see an option to do that.

Anyway, walgreens NAAT test is amazing! Free, and got results back in 55min. Guess that's the difference between a country that didn't screw up the procurement and doesn't see PCR tests as cash grab opportunity


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## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> Anyway, walgreens NAAT test is amazing! Free, and got results back in 55min. Guess that's the difference between a country that didn't screw up the procurement and doesn't see PCR tests as cash grab opportunity


You're benefiting from a social service (or as you would put it, commie government). Those lovely tests still cost money, but it's paid by the US Government.


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## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> You're benefiting from a social service (or as you would put it, commie government). Those lovely tests still cost money, but it's paid by the US Government.


Yeah. Abbott sells them for 29$.
Happy to pay that.
Price gouging though? Not cool

Also why commie government? Trudeau being wannabe tyrant has nothing to do with US government being 'commie'


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## Money172375

Lots of antigen tests available in Germany locally. About $3 each.


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## Money172375

Well, after 4 PCR tests in 2 weeks, I’m back in Canada. Of course, my I’ll friend (in a wheelchair) and I were randomly selected for arrival testing when we landed in Toronto. Army of people working there, pretty much doing nothing. Was handed A paper by the border guard advising we had to isolate until test comes back. However, the workers at the testing site verbally said no isolation was required. No test results back after 18 hours so far.


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## Money172375

I will add, getting a wheelchair at Frankfurt airport is a challenge. Apparently, you need to inform your airline of the need and arrange with them. However, in Canada, they’re available with no pre-arrangement as soon as you leave the gangway.


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## james4beach

@latebuyer in another thread you asked about covid-related travel insurance. There's info in this thread, see page 22 and the following pages.

I just heard from a family friend who had the Manulife CoverMe plan during her trip down south. She caught covid while there, had to stay an extra week, and Manulife actually did reimburse her.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Well, after 4 PCR tests in 2 weeks, I’m back in Canada. Of course, my I’ll friend (in a wheelchair) and I were randomly selected for arrival testing when we landed in Toronto. Army of people working there, pretty much doing nothing. Was handed A paper by the border guard advising we had to isolate until test comes back. However, the workers at the testing site verbally said no isolation was required. No test results back after 18 hours so far.


I'm curious if you had any reflections or thoughts after this travel. Anything you would have done differently, or things to prepare?

I'm asking because my parents are doing their first international travel since the pandemic started and I'd love to share tips with them, if you have any.


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## newfoundlander61

Going back home to Nfld from Ont this summer for a month for sure. Will drive down this year and take our time.


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## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I'm curious if you had any reflections or thoughts after this travel. Anything you would have done differently, or things to prepare?
> 
> I'm asking because my parents are doing their first international travel since the pandemic started and I'd love to share tips with them, if you have any.


Funny you should ask. Cause I’m travelling again. i Will say, both the Toronto and Frankfurt airports were very quiet. No lineups at all in Germany and there were maybe a half dozen people in line at the air Canada desk in Toronto. The airport experience was probably one of the best I’ve had.

I packed sanitizers, masks, cold medicine in my carry on. I printed hard copies of all the vax certs, COVID tests and other entry documentation. Rules are changing very frequently, so you need to be checking them regularly. I used Manulifes COVID insurance. Had to extend both my last 2 trips and they were decent about extending it. The wait times on the phone were a bit much.

do some research on where you’ll obtain a COVID test to return. In Germany, testing sites were everywhere and were very reliable. The 24 hour antigen rule makes things so much easier.

you can complete in advance some of the info on the arriveCan app….such as passport info and vax certs. Then you only need to fill in the rest of the info 3 days before you return. It won’t let you finish and submit the info until you’re in the 3 day window.

our biggest surprise was finding out that you needed 3 doses to be considered fully vaxxed in Germany. This caused a little disruption to our plans but wasn’t earth shattering. Be sure to research what vaxxed means at your destination and how it might impact your plans. One source for info Sherpa – Move Freely


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## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Funny you should ask. Cause I’m travelling again


Thanks for these notes! I think the main travel stress for me (at the moment) is that because covid is so easy to catch, having to extend the trip seems very likely. I already know several people this has happened to, including my colleagues who went to Germany a few months ago and family friends who went to Mexico. They immediately caught covid and had to extend their dates. It seems to happen a lot.

At the moment I'm doing some domestic business travel, but the same complication applies. If I get sick during the trip, I'll have to buy an additional 7 days of hotel (extremely expensive) and change my flights to something last minute (also extremely expensive for short notice travel).

Does anyone know if insurance like the Manulife plan can apply to *domestic* travel as well?


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## Tostig

I had cancelled my cruise that was scheduled in May due to the ongoing spreading of Covid variants and weekly changes to Covid testing and quarantine rules of so many countries. 

And now that there's a war going on in Europe that just might drag Canada and the US into it, it might not be a good idea to go anywhere even Asia because Japan is aiding in Ukraine's war effort.


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## james4beach

Tostig said:


> I had cancelled my cruise that was scheduled in May due to the ongoing spreading of Covid variants and weekly changes to Covid testing and quarantine rules of so many countries.
> 
> And now that there's a war going on in Europe that just might drag Canada and the US into it, it might not be a good idea to go anywhere even Asia because Japan is aiding in Ukraine's war effort.


I am sticking to North American travel for now. We can have lots of fun around here.


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## Money172375

Looks like pre-arrival testing is going away for vaccinated travellers April 1.
Too bad I return March 31.









Canada lifting pre-arrival COVID-19 testing requirement as of April 1


Soon, most travellers entering Canada will not have to show proof of a negative COVID-19 test, CTV News has learned. As of April 1, the federal government will be lifting the pre-arrival COVID-19 testing requirement at the border for fully vaccinated travellers.




www.ctvnews.ca


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## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Looks like pre-arrival testing is going away for vaccinated travellers April 1.
> Too bad I return March 31.


That's too bad, just missed it!

I think it's premature for the government to lift this though. A new wave is picking up steam in Europe. Those tourists from places like Europe (and later the US) are going to enter Canada, during outbreaks in those countries, and feed/ amplify our waves.

Even worse, air travel just got more dangerous because now we likely have covid positive people crowding into planes along with the rest of us. I'm not happy about that.

e.g. if you board a flight from the UK (very high rate of covid, a surge in progress) to Canada, you've probably got quite a few COVID cases on that plane.


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## OneSeat

james4beach said:


> -----. if you board a flight from the UK (very high rate of covid, a surge in progress) to Canada, you've probably got quite a few COVID cases on that plane.


My wife and I (in our mid-80s) are now adjusting to the fact that we may never get back to the _olde countree_. Unless we rent a private jet - haha.


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## james4beach

OneSeat said:


> My wife and I (in our mid-80s) are now adjusting to the fact that we may never get back to the _olde countree_. Unless we rent a private jet - haha.


It's totally doable, but you might want to wear a CAN95 mask at minimum, perhaps even a CAN99 mask or similar 99-grade medical mask.

I have flown several times during the pandemic. These days I always fly with a KN95 or CAN95. If you have facial hair, you should ideally do a clean shave to get the best seal with these "respirators".


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## londoncalling

Looking to spend a few weeks in Europe in August. Either Spain or Italy. Due to the duration I am considering renting as opposed to hotels. We have used Air Bnb, VRBO and expedia in the past for this type of travel. We are open to setting up in one location and then do 1-3 day excursions on our own. If anybody has done similar please feel free to share their experience and process either in this thread or by PM. I would also be interested in hearing about interesting or exciting cities or sites as well.


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## diharv

We have an Airbnb booked right in the centre of Madrid for four nights before embarking on a tour. $400 CSD for four nights. It looks very nice, has good reviews and the location couldn't have been better. We are finding better options with hotels in Barcelona though so will likely book with one there for the last few nights.


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## HappilyRetired

We enjoyed 5 weeks in Florida. My brother and his wife spend 6 weeks in Texas. It was nice to get away from the snow and cold. Several other friends went away, no one had any issues with Covid or the border.

We have booked 7 weeks in Mazatlán for next winter, my brother says they're going somewhere for at least 8 weeks. The couple that didn't go away this year is going for 3 months next winter.


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## james4beach

Has anyone here flown from Europe to the US? I have an older relative flying form Europe to the US, but she doesn't use computers so can only use paper.

She's connecting through Germany, to the US. My understanding of travel requirements is that she would need:

A. a negative rapid or PCR test, *taken the day before* the first flight of the trip [showing name and birth date or passport #]
B. proof of 3 doses of vaccination (like Pfizer), since Germany considers 3 doses = fully vaccinated

Does this sound right? Can the paper proof then be shown in both Germany and the US?

@Money172375 maybe your experience is the closest to this


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## Money172375

Are you asking about proof of neg. Test or proof of vaccine?

in addition to all the digital copies, I carried paper copies of everything. I just found it easier handing over paper vs. Handing over my phone.

will she get off the plane in Germany and board another plane? The proof of vax she has is fine.

the question is whether the US will accept the negative test result if it was taken more than one day before entry to the US. I remember reading something about different flight “legs” and what the rules are….but don’t recall them at this moment as my trips were always non-stop and direct.

can you provide a little more detail? When does she enter Germany (time and date) and when will she enter the US? 

info from the CDC….please do some research yourself too.









COVID-19 and Travel


CDC travel recommendations during the COVID-19 pandemic.




www.cdc.gov





If your itinerary has you arriving to the US via one or more connecting flights, your test can be taken within 1 day before the departure of the first flight.
You also have the option of getting tested en route during one of your connections. However, you should consider where in the connecting airport testing is available and if you would be able to access it while in transit. If you choose this strategy and are unable to get a test en route, you will not be able to board your flight to the United States. You should also be aware that if you test positive en route, you will not be allowed to continue your travel and may need to stay at that location until you end isolation.
Please note, if you planned an itinerary incorporating one or more overnight stays en route to the US, you will need to make sure your test is not expired before your flight that will enter the US. You do not need to be retested if the itinerary requires an overnight connection because of limitations in flight availability.


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## Money172375

Keep in mind, not all test centres will provide a paper copy of the result. Some only provide digital or email results. So she will need access to a printer at some point. I was tested twice in Germany and neither provided a paper copy directly.

does she use email at all?


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## Money172375

Money172375 said:


> Keep in mind, not all test centres will provide a paper copy of the result. Some only provide digital or email results. So she will need access to a printer at some point. I was tested twice in Germany and neither provided a paper copy directly.
> 
> does she use email at all?


Finally, make sure you are getting a test for travel. The standard tests in Germany, used by the citizens, seems to only provide a QR code with a simple “positive/negative”. A travel test needs to show name, passport # (typically), name and organization of the of the actual technician/nurse/doctor.


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## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Are you asking about proof of neg. Test or proof of vaccine?


I was curious about your experiences with both. Thanks for all the info in your posts, this is very helpful and I'll do more research into the areas you mention.

It's great to hear that you had good success with paper records. She's going to transfer in a German airport as she transits through Germany. Changes planes and remains in the airport. Unfortunately I don't have her detailed travel plans so I'll try to learn more.


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## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I was curious about your experiences with both. Thanks for all the info in your posts, this is very helpful and I'll do more research into the areas you mention.
> 
> It's great to hear that you had good success with paper records. She's going to transfer in a German airport as she transits through Germany. Changes planes and remains in the airport. Unfortunately I don't have her detailed travel plans so I'll try to learn more.


She may also need to complete the German version of arriveCan. Found here. 
Digitale Einreiseanmeldung but she’s likely exempt if only passing through Germany,

lenghty (and confusing) German entry details found here:



https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/visa-service/EinreiseUndAufenthalt


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## james4beach

I've travelled through Toronto (YYZ) twice in the last two weeks, both times at off-peak hours.

It was insanely busy. Tremendously long and slow lineups in security, chaotic and disorganized crowds at gates, etc. On top of that there's a bad COVID wave in Ontario which is not yet dissipating.

I suggest avoiding YYZ.


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## MrBlackhill

Many articles are showing up about people waiting for their passport renewal at Canada Passport and even missing their flight.

My wife went with my 9-month kid for his passport. She had an appointment and still waited 3 hours the first time (to give the papers) and 2 hours the second time (to get the passport).

We're currently on a 2-week trip in France. Mask is not mandatory here anymore but highly recommended. It is mandatory in public transports though, but barely enforced.

Our kid is currently sick. Not sure what he caught.


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## londoncalling

MrBlackhill said:


> Our kid is currently sick. Not sure what he caught.


It's never fun to travel while ill or with someone who is ill. Hope the little one recovers soon and it is not anything other than catching the travel bug. 🐛


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## MrBlackhill

londoncalling said:


> It's never fun to travel while ill or with someone who is ill. Hope the little one recovers soon and it is not anything other than catching the travel bug. 🐛


Thanks, so far nothing to worry about, just a bit of coughing and stuffy nose, but otherwise he's still joyful and enjoying the trip.


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## james4beach

Pearson Airport was already pretty bad a few weeks ago when I last went through it. Then I spotted this, really not good news. Try to avoid YYZ.









Toronto Airport’s Long Wait Times to Worsen Amid Staff Shortages - BNN Bloomberg


Canadians traveling through Toronto Pearson International Airport are facing lengthy wait times and the situation is likely to worsen in coming weeks.




www.bnnbloomberg.ca


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## james4beach

Some of my family members recently went to Cuba for the first time since the pandemic. I just wanted to report here.

They went with Sunwing to one of the all inclusive resorts in Varadero. They said the whole process went very smoothly and were very happy with the trip. They also said that Cubans seem very strict about covid rules, and indoor masks were strictly enforced at their resort. I don't know if that varies by resort.

Makes me wish I went with them, sounds like they had a great time. This is an older couple that is quite cautious about covid.

In contrast, I've heard that nobody is careful at Mexican resorts so if you want more of an unrestricted experience, Mexico may be the better destinación.


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## Eclectic21

MrBlackhill said:


> Many articles are showing up about people waiting for their passport renewal at Canada Passport and even missing their flight.
> 
> My wife went with my 9-month kid for his passport. She had an appointment and still waited 3 hours the first time (to give the papers) and 2 hours the second time (to get the passport) ...


Hmmm ... maybe things have become worse. My friend said that when they went in early March, those with appointments were being directed in right away, if they were showing up just before the scheduled time.

He tried to get his wife to renew her passport by mail in January but she didn't want to. Then she decided about a week and half in advance that they should go to Florida. The first attempt to hand in paperwork failed as the web site did not mention appointments were required to hand in the paperwork. She registered for booking an appointment but with no call to book a time, he tried to line up in the emergency line. He was told that handing in other people's applications was no longer accepted.

She received the call for booking her appointment in about double the time it was supposed to be (four days) with the earliest offered appointment being two weeks later.

She lined up in the emergency line at the office opening time the next day. After staff said repeatedly all appointment times were full so odds were slim of being able to help the people without appointments, she was taken in for handing in her application at noon. The clerk warned her to make sure her references were available as there wasn't time for repeated call backs. She had her new passport in hand at 4pm.


Cheers


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## Beaver101

^ With the above madness (read elsewhere on the news too), I'm holding off renewing my passport to "go somewhere" out of country. Relatives are just a phone call away, if not the roomy zoomy.

Besides, with the nice spring weather upon us (at least in TO), get to save those dollars staying in town.


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## james4beach

If you're thinking of booking US travel for the coming months:

Air Canada has a sale that I think ends tomorrow. 15% off Canada/US flights using promo code:
8TB7HME1


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## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> ^ With the above madness (read elsewhere on the news too), I'm holding off renewing my passport to "go somewhere" out of country. Relatives are just a phone call away, if not the roomy zoomy.
> 
> Besides, with the nice spring weather upon us (at least in TO), get to save those dollars staying in town.


Even if you are not planning to 'go somewhere'. It has been a mayhem for most people I know trying to get passports. We started in November and got our in February, and I thought that was bad enough. Right now, in my city, people are lining up for 'emergency' (less than 25 days out with reservations) passports and were being turned away. If you think may travel this year, I would just send it in now. 

Personally, it stresses me out not to have my passport when I have family outside of Canada in case something happens and I have to leave.

ADDED FOR OTHERS: If you are not in a rush to get your passport, but aren't sure if you have all the requirements filled out right (since they are picky, and I am really bad with paperwork), some passport offices will let you go in to 'check' to make sure you have everything, but then you can mail it in if you are not in a rush. We had friends send there's in beginning March for June travel, the ended up having to go in this month, to get their application rushed because they still hadn't received it and was with in 25 days. They had an appointment, lined up for 4 hours, finally got in, then came back a week later to pick up with another appointment, no line up the second time. We have many friends and people we know still waiting from beginning of March with the hopes of summer travel.


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## londoncalling

If this isn't a reason to go with the 10 year expiry passport option I don't know what is.


----------



## Ponderling

We might head for 4-6 days in Vegas in Sept. 
25 year wedding anniversary fell in the depths of covid lock downs.
Hopefully by Sept the current indigestion in the travel machine will have worked itself out by then, and summer holidays over for most by then. 

We were going to cruise in April 2022, but that fell apart on Omicron as the final pay in date approached. 
Now booked in on a NYC to Germany via nfld, greenland le have and london,over about 2 weeks, and likely will extend for a week on the UK on the way home in April/May 2023. .


----------



## milhouse

londoncalling said:


> If this isn't a reason to go with the 10 year expiry passport option I don't know what is.


Generally agree and I have since renewed with a 10 year. But when I first renewed when the 10 year passports became available I got the 5 year because I had this (irrational?) fear that if I lost my passport, that I would be under extra scutiny when going/returning through immigration until my lost passport expired. 
Plus I was reading on Flyertalk about people complaining about running out of pages and needing to get a new passport. I don't think you get extra pages on the 10 year vs the 5 and they stopped adding pages a while back IIRC. I was travelling a lot for work in addition to leisure at the time and I think I came within a page or 2 of filling up my passport before it expired.


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> Even if you are not planning to 'go somewhere'. It has been a mayhem for most people I know trying to get passports. We started in November and got our in February, and I thought that was bad enough. Right now, in my city, people are lining up for 'emergency' (less than 25 days out with reservations) passports and were being turned away. If you think may travel this year, I would just send it in now.
> 
> Personally, it stresses me out not to have my passport when I have family outside of Canada in case something happens and I have to leave.


 ... I'll think about it in the falls when the current madness + summer is over. 

As for older relatives to "visit", they have kids so what are they there for?


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... I'll think about it in the falls when the current madness + summer is over.
> 
> As for older relatives to "visit", they have kids so what are they there for?


If you travel for entertainment then you don't care about the environment.


----------



## Plugging Along

londoncalling said:


> If this isn't a reason to go with the 10 year expiry passport option I don't know what is.


I have always had the 10 year when possible, but eventually one has to renew even that. Kids under 16 are only 5 years, and are a new application each time. My oldest had her passport expiry at the beginning of Covid. Since she turning 16, we waited until her 16 birthday so she could get a 10 year adult passport, but being her first adult passport with little id', it proved challenging. Good news is she is good until 2023, so she can get her own passport next time with out me.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> If you travel for entertainment then you don't care about the environment.


 ... might like to tell/ask yourself that. So you care about the environment with your "annual if not bi/triple-annually" MUST go down south to ... Florida? And I wouldn't be surprised your response is "well, I'm a dual citizen".

I couldn't care about being entertained in an oven to get a roast  tan. Last visit down south for me was more than 5 years ago. My expired passport has only 1 (yes, that's the next digit after numero zero) stamped. I don't like Fx fees either.


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> ... I'll think about it in the falls when the current madness + summer is over.
> 
> As for older relatives to "visit", they have kids so what are they there for?


After summer sounds like a great idea, hopefully by then it will be less crazy, just in time for the Xmas rush. 

I don't know understand what you mean about older relatives and kids.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I only go to the states (USA) to visit "family aka older relatives". And these older relatives have their own family with "kids" and their kids should be entertaining them, if not taking care of them. My relatives understand perfectly well why I don't visit that often - first and foremost visits/travel cost $$$$.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... might like to tell/ask yourself that. So you care about the environment with your "annual if not bi/triple-annually" MUST go down south to ... Florida? And I wouldn't be surprised your response is "well, I'm a dual citizen".
> 
> I couldn't care about being entertained in an oven to get a roast  tan. Last visit down south for me was more than 5 years ago. My expired passport has only 1 (yes, that's the next digit after numero zero) stamped. I don't like Fx fees either.


I care about the environment, I just don't think that warming is a problem or that it needs a government created solution.

We don't roast and tan in Florida, we live just like we live in Canada except without having to put up with the -30 weather.


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> ^ I only go to the states (USA) to visit "family aka older relatives". And these older relatives have their own family with "kids" and their kids should be entertaining them, if not taking care of them. My relatives understand perfectly well why I don't visit that often - first and foremost visits/travel cost $$$$.


Uhhhh okay... sounds like you don't need a passport then. 

I only have a couple of summers left with my oldest before she leaves home. We had plans of major travel starting from 2020 (we cancelled a two family reunions and a trip to South Africa, a trip to Asia, and europe) So we have decided that we will resume as soon as our schedules allow. Passport required for us.


----------



## londoncalling

Although I travelled to the US quite frequently pre pandemic, I had never given consideration to what happens when every page has been stamped, I believe I have pages with more than one stamp but would have to check an older passport.

We are still debating heading out of country over the summer or delaying until fall/winter. I am not sure if prices will come down due to inflation and pent up demand. Each day the options for flights and accommodation are more pricey with less availability. This is good news for the economy but not good news for those looking to head out. Perhaps this will be summer staycation number three.


----------



## damian13ster

You can have multiple stamps on one page - not a problem. I had as many as 4 on a single page
Getting a new passport because of stamps is not a problem either. 
Hell, if you make a mistake and when entering Israel get your passport stamp, then you are banned from multiple countries just for ever visiting Israel (same as with Kosovo and Serbia) so that alone will make you replace your passport.


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> Uhhhh okay... sounds like you don't need a passport then.
> 
> I only have a couple of summers left with my oldest before she leaves home. We had plans of major travel starting from 2020 (we cancelled a two family reunions and a trip to South Africa, a trip to Asia, and europe) So we have decided that we will resume as soon as our schedules allow. Passport required for us.


 ... you have some heavy duty travelling (out of country) to do so definitely need a passport. 

I'm not sure if you recall in the other (my) thread, one can use their passport as another form of ID (convenient) if not solely for travelling purpose.


----------



## Beaver101

londoncalling said:


> Although I travelled to the US quite frequently pre pandemic, I had never given consideration to what happens when every page has been stamped, I believe I have pages with more than one stamp but would have to check an older passport. ...


 ... yes, you can have multiple stamps on one page. I only got one page stamped with that 1 stamp on my recently expired passport. The prior one had 5 stamps and I had travelled more than that.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> I care about the environment, I just don't think that warming is a problem or that it needs a government created solution.


 ... then why don't you stay in Florida all year round? See response below too.



> We don't roast and tan in Florida, we live just like we live in Canada except without having to put up with the -30 weather.


 ... as a Canadian or true Northerner, don't you think one would have been been acclimatized by that minus 30 weather by now? I mean if you got the dough, then by all means move where-ever, however you like, since you can.


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> ... you have some heavy duty travelling (out of country) to do so definitely need a passport.
> 
> I'm not sure if you recall in the other (my) thread, one can use their passport as another form of ID (convenient) if not solely for travelling purpose.


I have used our passport as id. Our challenge with passport this year for my oldest was finding acceptable id to obtain a adult passport. The requirements where we need official government id that had their name, dob, signature and photo (there's more but this was the summary) We couldn't use the child's passport because it had been expired more than a year, so it was not considered valid by passport Canada. This doesn't leave a lot options for a kid without a driver's license. We didn't want to send in her learner's because we is still practicing driving, so going into the office was the only way we could get her id back so she could use it while waiting. You can mail it, but then need the gaurentor to sign off ever thing, which difficult because that was during the peak of COVID. 

We now have passports for everyone again, so are good with id's, but what a pain for a first time young adult passport.


----------



## milhouse

londoncalling said:


> what happens when every page has been stamped, I believe I have pages with more than one stamp but would have to check an older passport.


Stamps generally aren't the space suck though of course they can add up. Rather it's the visa stickers that monopolize a full page that burns through space quickly.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... then why don't you stay in Florida all year round? See response below too.
> 
> ... as a Canadian or true Northerner, don't you think one would have been been acclimatized by that minus 30 weather by now? I mean if you got the dough, then by all means move where-ever, however you like, since you can.


I love Canada, in spite of a few idiots that are trying to ruin it. We don't want to live in the US, we just want to escape the worst of winter like hundreds of thousands of other people do.

So we'll come and go as we please. Feel free to enjoy winter as much as you want.


----------



## Money172375

International travelers finally get to skip COVID test to enter the U.S.


The CDC will lift the requirement to produce a negative COVID-19 test to enter the U.S....




www.sfchronicle.com


----------



## james4beach

What kind of insurance are people getting, when travelling to the US these days?

I was thinking of getting the Manulife CoverMe plan again, which apparently includes coverage in case you are required to quarantine due to covid. But if there are no more quarantine "requirements", is there any reason for this?

Then again CoverMe goes up to $5 million which still might be worth it, whether or not there's covid specific stuff.


----------



## Beaver101

^ How long is your trip for? And how dangerous? What're the chances of you catching Covid "now"? I think you might be throwing away $$$ to buy that kind of coverage now. I think you get better coverage with your "masks" and most definitely the 6 feet away (if you can which would be impossible at TO's Pearson currently from the news I read (what a nightmare as if life ain't exciting enough.))

You might want to consider getting your booster prior to your trip (don't know when).


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ^ How long is your trip for? And how dangerous?


Impossible to tell these days. Well the issue is really: what happens if you get sick during the trip.

You can't (or shouldn't!) get on on the flight back to Canada until you recover. So I'd want to extend my hotel stay and change my flight. That could easily cost another $1,000. It's happened to several friends of mine so far.

Can insurance even protect against that? Maybe this is just the risk of travel that we all have to take. My most recent friend who caught COVID said it was pretty severe (worse than a bad flu) but lasted only 3 days.


----------



## james4beach

*Warning*! If you're going to the US, check that your medical insurance will cover you for hospital care and treatment related to COVID.

I just phoned the insurer for my credit card's travel insurance. It turns out they exclude healthcare related to COVID including hospital treatment. So I can now answer my earlier question... this is why you should buy something like the Manulife coverage. Insurance is absolutely required. First thing Monday, I'm phoning other insurers to clarify the coverage and buy supplementary travel medical.


----------



## kcowan

Last time we travelled in the fall, there was an option for Covid-only insurance for $/day based on risk. Might be a cheaper option for a young otherwise healthy person?


----------



## james4beach

kcowan said:


> Last time we travelled in the fall, there was an option for Covid-only insurance for $/day based on risk. Might be a cheaper option for a young otherwise healthy person?


That sounds useful. Do you remember which insurer offered that?


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> *Warning*! If you're going to the US, check that your medical insurance will cover you for hospital care and treatment related to COVID.
> 
> I just phoned the insurer for my credit card's travel insurance. It turns out they exclude healthcare related to COVID including hospital treatment. So I can now answer my earlier question... this is why you should buy something like the Manulife coverage. Insurance is absolutely required. *First thing Monday, I'm phoning other insurers to clarify the coverage and buy supplementary travel medical.*


 ... before you do that - check the list of all exclusion clauses, particularly the pre-existing one. 

I'm sure snow-birds (of which you are not) got their travel (medical and non) insurance all figured out by now so check their website (CARP?).


----------



## sags

Long lineups and wait times for passports in our city, and Toronto's Pearson Airport is a disaster zone.

The airlines have been cancelling 10% of their flights, and people are missing connections due to the long delays.

Air travelers best avoid Toronto for awhile. People needing passports or renewals best plan well ahead.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Air travelers best avoid Toronto for awhile


That was a warning I posted in this thread back on April 26 after I saw the insanity of YYZ myself


----------



## damian13ster

Air travelers will just end up avoiding Canada. 
But it's ok, we don't need their money - can print our own


----------



## Beaver101

^ Yup, we don't need their germs either. So when are you planning to leave commie Canada, run by a dictator?


----------



## sags

Why anyone would travel for non-essential reasons is beyond me. The government is now warning about monkey pox when traveling.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Why anyone would travel for non-essential reasons is beyond me.


 .... either the need to have bragging rights or define "non-essential" for such travellers. 



> The government is now warning about monkey pox when traveling.


 ... are you serious? I guess travellers can't sue the government now for "not being warned". LMAO.


----------



## damian13ster

It is called living.
Plus, travel helps one not be narrow minded and ignorant - really recommend it


----------



## ian

We flew int Pearson on May 24. No issues….we were on the UP express 15 minutes after deplaning. Flew out the next day. Arrived at 8:30PM and we’re through security in 10 minutes. Lisbon customs/immigration was a mess when we arrived. Three hour wait times.

Our friends in the the UK have advised us ti avoid going through LHR or Gatwick if we go to Greece in the fall.

Pearson is not the only airport that is experiencing unacceptable passenger delays at the moment.


----------



## londoncalling

We have decided to put any summer air travel plans on hold due to airport issues. It is not just YYZ that is experiencing problems. Since each airport relies on each other for air crew delays are being experienced everywhere. It does not matter if you are flying domestic or International there is a likelihood you will experience delays if you have a multi-leg flight. My SIL recently made a couple of trips within Canada that did not include YYZ in the last month and had issues (delays, missed connections, baggage) to and from for both trips. Increased travel costs plus the frustration of having your trip waylaid makes holding off the better option for us. We are monitoring weekly but if we do not book something by month end it will mean forfeiting a companion flight. We have accepted that we will likely pay higher fares the longer we wait if we fly before fall. I don't foresee things improving or getting cheaper anytime soon. After many have experienced limited travel during the pandemic it is unlikely we will see demand destruction for holidays any time soon. Already looking at options for winter and it doesn't look promising. These are all first world problems in comparison to what is going on elsewhere in the world.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> It is called living.
> Plus, travel helps one not be narrow minded and ignorant - really recommend it


 ... so when you're gonna to take your own advice/recommendation above? 

And don't forget the questions in post #728 referencing the very same comments that came from you.


----------



## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> We have decided to put any summer air travel plans on hold due to airport issues. It is not just YYZ that is experiencing problems.


True, and people have to remember that planes travel across the continent... starting their day long before your flight time.

Stick to direct flights whenever possible as there are fewer things that can go wrong. Also, get a seat assignment at the time you purchase the ticket, because as I understand things, a seat assignment makes it far less likely you'll get bumped off a flight.

Honestly, I also find that adjusting my expectations (mental preparation) really helps too. When I go to the airport, I'm expecting a long wait and this alleviates the frustration for me.


----------



## kcowan

james4beach said:


> That sounds useful. Do you remember which insurer offered that?


I recall it was Manulife.


----------



## Gator13

I had a couple domestic return flights in the last couple weeks (originating from YYZ) No problems other than a bit longer than usual wait for checked luggage. All flights were full.


----------



## milhouse

londoncalling said:


> We are monitoring weekly but if we do not book something by month end it will mean forfeiting a companion flight. We have accepted that we will likely pay higher fares the longer we wait if we fly before fall. I don't foresee things improving or getting cheaper anytime soon. After many have experienced limited travel during the pandemic it is unlikely we will see demand destruction for holidays any time soon. Already looking at options for winter and it doesn't look promising. These are all first world problems in comparison to what is going on elsewhere in the world.


I can empathize.
We forfeited a companion fare early this year because we flew so little once the pandemic started until the end of last year. We want to travel but trying to find a good fare and are not seeing a lot of deals and don't expect to either. However, we'll probably bite the bullet and try to find something during shoulder season. And yup, definitely first world probs.


----------



## milhouse

james4beach said:


> Stick to direct flights whenever possible as there are fewer things that can go wrong. Also, get a seat assignment at the time you purchase the ticket, because as I understand things, a seat assignment makes it far less likely you'll get bumped off a flight.


+1. We've also in recent years prepandemic started to not buy the cheapest fare in economy so that we can get a seat assignment. I understand it can be a few more dollars that many people don't want to pay but things just seem to have gone better for me/us be it random or intentional like not getting stuck in the middle seat, being able to swap into exit row during check-in, etc.
I'll add that we sometimes try to book an earlier flight because you're generally less likely to get hit by delays since later flights in the day get the domino effect from delays on earlier legs on that aircraft.


----------



## james4beach

milhouse said:


> +1. We've also in recent years prepandemic started to not buy the cheapest fare in economy so that we can get a seat assignment. I understand it can be a few more dollars that many people don't want to pay but things just seem to have gone better for me/us be it random or intentional like not getting stuck in the middle seat, being able to swap into exit row during check-in, etc.


Good point. I do the same, I would never buy the "basic economy" from either Air Canada or WestJet. I think the terms with Westjet (for lowest economy) is even worse.

But be careful. For a while Air Canada had eliminated "basic economy" but it seems they brought it back within the last year or two. Have to keep an eye out for this when you're booking.


----------



## londoncalling

@milhouse Being newly retired you have the luxury of a flexible schedule. Hopefully, you are able to find something soon. We do have some leeway as well as our kid gets older we want to limit time away from school. In years past it was not an issue to miss a week here or there.


----------



## milhouse

I'm retired but the missus isn't yet so unfortunately I need to plan according to her vacation schedule. She has a new manager that has made her team book vacation days at the start of the year with only a bit of flexibilty for adjustments whereas previously, she was able to take off whenever as long as her backup was able to take on her stuff. 
I was also hoping to travel with buddies but everyone seems so busy this year.


----------



## ian

We are in Portugal for a month. Driviving to rthe west coast when we return. After TD HT we will be booking 6-7 weeks in Greece. Then air for a snowbird trip to SE Asia.


----------



## Money172375

According to CBC, Canada dropping vaccine mandates for domestic travel and outgoing international flights. Announcement expected Tuesday.


----------



## james4beach

kcowan said:


> I recall it was Manulife.


Thanks. I bought the Manulife CoverMe plan for my trip, only about $4 per day of coverage. It includes medical care related to COVID.

I have a relative in their mid 70s who bought the same plan and it cost them about $17 a day. That's not so bad either.


----------



## ian

I have Manulife out of country medical as a pension plan benefit.

Several years ago my spouse injured herself in Kuala Lumpur and required some hospital and specialist care.

We first submitted a claim to Alberta Health as per Manulife’s direction. Two months later Alberta Health reimbursed us $50.

We then submitted to Manulife. The claim was paid in it’s entirety within 10 business days. No follow up questions or ‘get out of jail’ excuses on their part. Great claims service.


----------



## Money172375

My neighbours daughter flew from Pearson to Seattle today. Arrived 4.5 hours before the flight. Her comment. “I’ve never seen Pearson so empty”.

maybe all the issues are on the arrival side?


----------



## damian13ster

It depends from luck.
Yesterday I was flying too

My flight to Pearson was delayed by 1h40m. The plane was in the gate on time, but it was held up - even the staff wasn't able to explain why.
Had connecting flight in Pearson - was about to miss it, but it turns out the flight itself was delayed by over 2h. As was every single other flight leaving the terminal at the time.
Made for a really long journey, but at least it didn't turn into an overnight stay at Pearson


----------



## Beaver101

Imagine going on your dream vacation and renting AirBnB. Next thing you know you're on the web as entertaining celebrity for some dark creep(s).

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/airbnb-guest-creeped-alleged-discovery-145837028.html


----------



## ian

We flew into Pearson on May 24. We flew out on May 25. Security lineup for both not an issue. 10 minutes max. Just dumb luck I guess. Bags no issue since we only go carry on.

Arrival in Lisbon……three hour wait to clear. Apparently lots of checked bag issues.


----------



## newfoundlander61

Flying from Ottawa via Halifax to St. John's, Nfld next month for a couple of weeks. Staying a an Airbnb and managed to get a car rental with unlimited km's (mystery car) due to amount of bookings this summer, you take what is available when you show up but its better than no vehicle.


----------



## Johnny199r

Flying Winnipeg-Montreal-Rome in mid August for 2 1/2 weeks in Italy. Had some aeroplan points so going first class.

I’m glad to be avoiding Pearson but am a bit concerned about all the delays these days. Our layover in Montreal is over 4 hours, so I hope there won’t be any issues. I’m happy to spend the time at the Maple Leaf Lounge.

I don’t care if we get delayed on the return leg.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Good luck! But be sure to check the Maple Leaf Lounge (yes even in Montreal) will be open or not going under-reno in which case it'll be re-located or restricted.


----------



## kcowan

We are flying direct from VCR to Frankfurt on AC then on to Budapest Aug 30th, business class. We are delaying our second booster until August.


----------



## Numbersman61

We have now booked flights from Calgary to Ottawa, Vegas and Kelowna. Due to back issues, I’m uncomfortable in taking long flights so my wife will be flying to Maui with her sisters. Before the pandemic, I was a frequent flyer on WestJet - my platinum status will disappear in six months.


----------



## milhouse

Johnny199r said:


> Had some aeroplan points so going first class.


Always fun redeeming AP points for premium seats!  
---
I keep reading about flights getting cancelled in the States. It sounds like it's a staffing issue and have read WS and AC are struggling to hire too. Anyone have a feel for or experience cancellations in Canada, the US, or internationally?


----------



## Johnny199r

milhouse said:


> Always fun redeeming AP points for premium seats!
> ---
> I keep reading about flights getting cancelled in the States. It sounds like it's a staffing issue and have read WS and AC are struggling to hire too. Anyone have a feel for or experience cancellations in Canada, the US, or internationally?


It’s anarchy flying Canada right now. Complete anarchy.


----------



## ian

We are in Portugal now. It has been two plus years since we have been in Europe.

One thing we have noticed is the huge increase in those Euronet type third party ripoff ATMs. They have sprung up everywhere and are to be avoided. We count about six to ten for every bank ATM.

What else…a sharp decrease in the number of bank branches with their associated bank ATMs.

Be prepared for a huge service charge ‘clip’ if you make the mistake of using one of these bandit ATMs. And an outrageous FX rate.

And…if you do use a bank ATM you will be asked twice. If you want the ATM bank to do the FX. Just say NO!


----------



## milhouse

ian said:


> One thing we have noticed is the huge increase in those Euronet type third party ripoff ATMs. They have sprung up everywhere and are to be avoided. We count about six to ten for every bank ATM.
> 
> What else…a sharp decrease in the number of bank branches with their associated bank ATMs.


So sketchy!
One of the pre-trip planning activities that we've added to our list over the years is to identify major banks in the countries we're visiting and then mark a few of their branches/atm's on google maps near our hotel.


----------



## londoncalling

ian said:


> We flew into Pearson on May 24. We flew out on May 25. Security lineup for both not an issue. 10 minutes max. Just dumb luck I guess. Bags no issue since we only go carry on.
> 
> Arrival in Lisbon……three hour wait to clear. Apparently lots of checked bag issues.


Pretty impressive that you are able to travel internationally for a month(or more) and only do carryon. I still need to check a bag (sometimes 2) for the family. It's a least two if I try to mix work/holiday into the same trip. If it's strictly work I can easily do a week with carry on. Thankfully due to status I have free checked bags. However, if I can remove one obstacle in getting delayed I will gladly do it. What's your secret? I can't remember if you have multiple stays in Portugal or just set up one home base for the duration.


----------



## ian

londoncalling said:


> Pretty impressive that you are able to travel internationally for a month(or more) and only do carryon. I still need to check a bag (sometimes 2) for the family. It's a least two if I try to mix work/holiday into the same trip. If it's strictly work I can easily do a week with carry on. Thankfully due to status I have free checked bags. However, if I can remove one obstacle in getting delayed I will gladly do it. What's your secret? I can't remember if you have multiple stays in Portugal or just set up one home base for the duration.


Our first post retirement trip was seven months. It included an African safari that limited us to one bag. We had previously met other retirees on our travels who did carry on only for two and three months at a time. Our typical winter trip, pre covid, is 60 days.

We decided to do it. Bought international size roller carry ons so that was the max. Each time we return home and unpack we take note of what we did not use or hardly used. 

Our issue is also that we have to limit ourselves to what we can each physically handle on trains, ferries, rentals, carrying up stairs etc. 

On many flights we also have free baggage check. On one carrier, Australian Jetstar, we actually pay a premium for carry on. 

Also did lots of business travel so I was accustomed to carry on. Spouse……more difficult for her.


----------



## ian

milhouse said:


> So sketchy!
> One of the pre-trip planning activities that we've added to our list over the years is to identify major banks in the countries we're visiting and then mark a few of their branches/atm's on google maps near our hotel.


We do exactly the same to review s/c’s and ATM withdrawal maximums.

We have seen so many people using those ATMs over the past month. Many more than we have seen at bank ATMs. 

I am fussy. I much prefer to use a bank ATM that is inside the bank lobby or attached to it vs. a stand alone unit in a very public space.


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> We have seen so many people using those ATMs over the past month. Many more than we have seen at bank ATMs.


I did a quick search in Lisbon for Deutsche Bank ATMs, since that's part of the Global ATM Alliance (no fees for Scotia bank cards).

And wow, there are very few ATM locations! That's pretty shocking. I guess that means I should just carry a few thousand euros cash with me on future trips to Europe.


----------



## ian

james4beach said:


> I did a quick search in Lisbon for Deutsche Bank ATMs, since that's part of the Global ATM Alliance (no fees for Scotia bank cards).
> 
> And wow, there are very few ATM locations! That's pretty shocking. I guess that means I should just carry a few thousand euros cash with me on future trips to Europe.


I did the same nada. Took $1K cad work of euros. Used a bank ATM twice. Both times it seemed that the max withdrawal was 200 euro. We changed our plans and skipped Lisbon for more time in the Algarve. It is why we seldom make hard reservations. Very much spontaneous travellers.


----------



## londoncalling

james4beach said:


> I did a quick search in Lisbon for Deutsche Bank ATMs, since that's part of the Global ATM Alliance (no fees for Scotia bank cards).
> 
> And wow, there are very few ATM locations! That's pretty shocking. I guess that means I should just carry a few thousand euros cash with me on future trips to Europe.


If you choose to go that route please provide me with your picture, travel itinerary and the meeting location of a dark alley where I can relieve you of your cash burden


----------



## damian13ster

Why not just carry credit card with low/no fx fees?


----------



## milhouse

james4beach said:


> Deutsche Bank ATMs, since that's part of the Global ATM Alliance (no fees for Scotia bank cards).


+1
Tangerine's cards, as a subsidiary of Scotia, are also part of that ATM alliance but I've been too lazy to get a physical card. Might as well add that to the list of stuff to do. 



damian13ster said:


> Why not just carry credit card with low/no fx fees?


That's ideal but I find it's kind of situation dependent. We eat at a lot of hole in the walls and street vendors that don't take credit cards. Might be a sketchy place and I don't want my cc potentially compromised, more about the hassle versus getting charges reversed. Some times it might be better to tip in cash. I kind of feel awkward paying for a 2E souvenir with a cc. Pay toilets, when you got to go, you got to go.  Etc. Stuff like that for me needing a bit of cash.


----------



## ian

damian13ster said:


> Why not just carry credit card with low/no fx fees?


We do both. We had 800e cash. When we go ti Thailand in the winter we take 2k Cad and exchange it there.

Some places only take cash. B&B’s, restaurants, etc. Not hard to use up cash if you are paying out 300e cash for accommodation, Not unusual to get a discount for cash, better room, etc.

We did have an issue this trip. We use CIBC. I can use their card in foreign ATM with no issue.

But,.,we cannot go online and do banking. CIBC does two step verification. It used to be via email with a code. Now they only do phone-the number they have on file. Problem is when we go overseas we buy a local SIM card. We were still able to access Home Trust and EQBank so it was OK. We were only gone for a month however our banking needs change when we are gone for two months. Need to look into this when we get home.


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> But,.,we cannot go online and do banking. CIBC does two step verification. It used to be via email with a code. Now they only do phone-the number they have on file. Problem is when we go overseas we buy a local SIM card. We were still able to access Home Trust and EQBank so it was OK. We were only gone for a month however our banking needs change when we are gone for two months. Need to look into this when we get home.


This is a really good point. I'll need to think about this as well... many of the banks have started doing phone-based two step verification.

One solution to consider is buying a VoIP number. Many services exist for this. So you'd buy a Canadian phone number from the VoIP service. Use their web site to forward the call to any phone, including an international SIM if that's what you currently have. Then make sure the Canadian bank uses a phone call (not SMS) method. So even if you're in Thailand, the bank will still authenticate by calling your [Canadian] VoIP number. The call is forwarded to your Thai cell. This kind of thing can be set up for as little as a couple bucks a month.

Under normal circumstances when you're in Canada, you'd just forward it to your regular phone and don't have to touch the configuration. But it's easily adapted to foreign travel. I've been using this method for over a decade to maintain domestic phone presence when hopping between countries so that family & friends can easily reach me. When you're in a new country and get a local SIM, you just use a web interface to update the forwarding destination. It's not 100% reliable for connections but considering it's forwarding a domestic call around the world, I'd say it works pretty well.

If you msg me I can point you to a specific service that does this.

These banks really need to get their act together and implement a wider range of 2 factor auth. Many global banks use better methods like issuing small hardware tokens. This is an extremely strong method that is also travel-friendly. My Australian bank has one of these, issued one of these tokens. You press a button to get a digital code on the keychain sized device. The battery lasts for over 5 years, and this method doesn't require any internet or phone access.

That method is also unhackable, unlike phone and SMS which *can* be intercepted.


----------



## ian

james4beach said:


> This is a really good point. I'll need to think about this as well... many of the banks have started doing phone-based two step verification.
> 
> One solution to consider is buying a VoIP number. Many services exist for this. So you'd buy a Canadian phone number from the VoIP service. Use their web site to forward the call to any phone, including an international SIM if that's what you currently have. Then make sure the Canadian bank uses a phone call (not SMS) method. So even if you're in Thailand, the bank will still authenticate by calling your [Canadian] VoIP number. The call is forwarded to your Thai cell. This kind of thing can be set up for as little as a couple bucks a month.
> 
> Under normal circumstances when you're in Canada, you'd just forward it to your regular phone and don't have to touch the configuration. But it's easily adapted to foreign travel. I've been using this method for over a decade to maintain domestic phone presence when hopping between countries so that family & friends can easily reach me. When you're in a new country and get a local SIM, you just use a web interface to update the forwarding destination. It's not 100% reliable for connections but considering it's forwarding a domestic call around the world, I'd say it works pretty well.
> 
> If you msg me I can point you to a specific service that does this.
> 
> These banks really need to get their act together and implement a wider range of 2 factor auth. Many global banks use better methods like issuing small hardware tokens. This is an extremely strong method that is also travel-friendly. My Australian bank has one of these, issued one of these tokens. You press a button to get a digital code on the keychain sized device. The battery lasts for over 5 years, and this method doesn't require any internet or phone access.
> 
> That method is also unhackable, unlike phone and SMS which *can* be intercepted.


I did not bother to try attempting to log into our Scotia account. We generally ensure that we keep enough in our check accounts to cover a few months of auto payments as well as a large credit balance in our Home Trust account. My goal is to limit my access to financial accounts while travelling. 

I misjudged our HT balance. Thankfully EQ second step was an email and numeric code. Similar system at HT. 

By the way…cost of a one month data and cell Vodofone SIM card in Portugal was 10euros. $13.50 cad. We hardly used it.


----------



## ian

Sitting in Faro airport. Our plane to Toronto is delayed 7 hours. We will of course be claiming compensation under EU 261. 600 euros each. 

Much stronger consumer airline protection in the EU vs Canada.


----------



## damian13ster

Canada beefing up the passenger protection too. You might be eligible for compensation if delay is longer than *48 hours* 😂 😂


----------



## milhouse

ian said:


> But,.,we cannot go online and do banking. CIBC does two step verification. It used to be via email with a code. Now they only do phone-the number they have on file. Problem is when we go overseas we buy a local SIM card.





james4beach said:


> This is a really good point. I'll need to think about this as well... many of the banks have started doing phone-based two step verification.
> 
> One solution to consider is buying a VoIP number.


+1 those are good points. I have to think about this for the future.
Before covid, I got tired of buying a local sim and was starting to bite the bullet and just paid the daily Easy Roam (aka Roam like Home, Roam Better) charge but they've jacked up the daily price. 
I suppose one could turn off data on roam and just get a text message. I looked it up and it's 75cents per inbound text without Easy Roam so it could add up, particularly if you had a bunch of people text you.


----------



## james4beach

milhouse said:


> I suppose one could turn off data on roam and just get a text message


It's a dangerous game though! If data kicks in, Facebook & all the spy apps on your phone will start communicating and could cost you a fortune.

The best solution I've found so far is my US T-Mobile plan, which I still use. I love the package. Unlimited, free texts & data everywhere in the world. However one has to attach it to a US address and pay from a US bank.


----------



## ian

james4beach said:


> It's a dangerous game though! If data kicks in, Facebook & all the spy apps on your phone will start communicating and could cost you a fortune.
> 
> The best solution I've found so far is my US T-Mobile plan, which I still use. I love the package. Unlimited, free texts & data everywhere in the world. However one has to attach it to a US address and pay from a US bank.


That T mobile package is first rate. Doubt whether we will ever see anything like it at the same price point in Canada. Too few carriers, too much industry collusion, and not nearly enough regulations. It is a sham,


----------



## kcowan

An alternative to no charge calling and texting from a WiFi capable cell phone is WhatsApp. I don't think it fixes 2FA though.


----------



## Spudd

milhouse said:


> +1 those are good points. I have to think about this for the future.
> Before covid, I got tired of buying a local sim and was starting to bite the bullet and just paid the daily Easy Roam (aka Roam like Home, Roam Better) charge but they've jacked up the daily price.
> I suppose one could turn off data on roam and just get a text message. I looked it up and it's 75cents per inbound text without Easy Roam so it could add up, particularly if you had a bunch of people text you.


You're probably not in the mood to switch banks for this, but TD has an authenticator app they use as an option for the 2-factor authentication. For that all you need is your smartphone and the internet.


----------



## milhouse

Spudd said:


> You're probably not in the mood to switch banks for this, but TD has an authenticator app they use as an option for the 2-factor authentication. For that all you need is your smartphone and the internet.


Thanks for this info. I actually use TD but wasn't aware of their authenticator app (is it the same as their mobile banking app?). I always just get it to text me the code. 
Speaking of which, I forgot about just using TD's mobile banking app direct.


----------



## Spudd

milhouse said:


> Thanks for this info. I actually use TD but wasn't aware of their authenticator app (is it the same as their mobile banking app?). I always just get it to text me the code.
> Speaking of which, I forgot about just using TD's mobile banking app direct.


TD Authenticate - Apps on Google Play 

If you go into your security settings you can change your preferences so you have a choice between the authenticator and the texts.


----------



## ian

We went through immigration at Pearson yesterday. 10:30 PM..we were through in five minutes we have Nexus. Non nexus line was 10 minutes or so at that time. All positions appeared manned.

We went through security at Pearson this evening. 9PM. Absolutely no lines at Terminal 1.


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> We went through immigration at Pearson yesterday. 10:30 PM..we were through in five minutes we have Nexus. Non nexus line was 10 minutes or so at that time. All positions appeared manned.


Wow you still have an active NEXUS card? That's lucky. Mine expired long ago. I have tried to renew it but have to attend an interview... scheduled for September.


----------



## ian

james4beach said:


> Wow you still have an active NEXUS card? That's lucky. Mine expired long ago. I have tried to renew it but have to attend an interview... scheduled for September.


Neither of our Nexus cards worked last night. 

We went to the desk and told the agent. He did it manually for us. We did not have to exit the line. I suspect this may be a common occurrence. He asked us the questions, ticked boxes on a yellow form, gave us the form, and we handed this in as we exited the area.

So...if yours does not work do not go back into the regular line. Just approach the agent at the Nexus desk.


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> So...if yours does not work do not go back into the regular line. Just approach the agent at the Nexus desk.


Interesting. I've been using mine at Canadian airport security (flashing it) so that's still OK.


----------



## ian

james4beach said:


> Interesting. I've been using mine at Canadian airport security (flashing it) so that's still OK.


It works to get into the line going through security. No issue. It does not work when we used in in the machines at immigration when we entered the country. Tried both cards on two different machines. So...we just went up, told the agents the cards were not being recognized either because of the card or the machine. Agent was first rate, he went though it manually with us. Five minutes later we were on our way. It took another 30 minutes of lining up to get a cab! I recognize that there are issues.

Our experience going through YYC twice and YYZ three times in the past month was that line ups were minimal to non existent. Could be the times of day that we were travelling. In the case of YYC and YYZ for domestic, we did not even need to use our Nexus card because there was no lineup at either nexus or regular. As a matter of fact, my spouse commented that it was much better than our pre covid travel experiences.


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> Our experience going through YYC twice and YYZ three times in the past month was that line ups were minimal to non existent.


Interesting. I went through YYZ twice within the last three months and it was horrendous. YVR was fine though.


----------



## londoncalling

Maybe you are on to something with time of day having a greater effect on delays. I am not aware of many having issues with early morning departures but that is just within my own circle. As the day goes on it gets progressively worse. Without an abundance of flights my guess is that any hiccups have a greater impact to when air travel was in full operation. Of course Covid-screening protocols have increased process time. If the majority of people are ignoring check-in guidelines which have been increased for us arrival well in advance that may be part of the delay.


----------



## ian

londoncalling said:


> Maybe you are on to something with time of day having a greater effect on delays. I am not aware of many having issues with early morning departures but that is just within my own circle. As the day goes on it gets progressively worse. Without an abundance of flights my guess is that any hiccups have a greater impact to when air travel was in full operation. Of course Covid-screening protocols have increased process time. If the majority of people are ignoring check-in guidelines which have been increased for us arrival well in advance that may be part of the delay.


Could be. We do electronic check in and do not check any bags. We go straight to security,


----------



## ian

I prefer early morning flights. Less chance of delays. Flight delays tend to back up each other as the day progresses.


----------



## londoncalling

@ian I am of the same mindset as post 787 and 788 for the exact same reasons. Occasionally we will take a later morning departure on return trip depending on where we are and when we will finally get home. Less time in airports the better.


----------



## Money172375

I figured this might happen….









ArriveCan app might still be used after the pandemic: public safety minister


The ArriveCan app appears to be staying in place for now with the Minister of Public Safety saying it may be utilized beyond the pandemic.




windsor.ctvnews.ca


----------



## ian

Money172375 said:


> I figured this might happen….
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ArriveCan app might still be used after the pandemic: public safety minister
> 
> 
> The ArriveCan app appears to be staying in place for now with the Minister of Public Safety saying it may be utilized beyond the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> windsor.ctvnews.ca


Yes, no surprise.

We have used something similar to enter Australia for the past several years. We pay a fee The US is going this way, as is parts of Europe.

Offsets the cost of security. Last time we we through security/immigration in Australia in five minutes flat.


----------



## Beaver101

^ What happens if a person don't use an app or a cellphone? Can't cross the border?


----------



## Money172375

A lot of countries have electronic (digital) entry requirement. I suspect the majority of pre-entry customs declarations and passport submission will occur digitally in the near future. Paper submission will likely still exist but the process will discourage most travellers from using the “old” tech.


----------



## ian

And...there are a number of countries that take digital fingerprints on entry, and some again on exit. And have been doing so for quite some time!


----------



## Beaver101

^ That would be cool - fingers or retinal scans. Pre-programmed aka pre-recorded. Ie. you're on their database of "eligible traveller" (aka not on the person non-grata or fugitive lists.) Don't even need an "app" or cell-phone there ... feels alot lighter too! 

And funny enough, no outcry of invasion of privacy by the so-called freedom fighters.


----------



## damian13ster

ian said:


> Yes, no surprise.
> 
> We have used something similar to enter Australia for the past several years. We pay a fee The US is going this way, as is parts of Europe.
> 
> Offsets the cost of security. Last time we we through security/immigration in Australia in five minutes flat.


You are talking about ESTA. It is a visa - completely different thing. 
When foreign tourists come to Canada from abroad, some countries also have to fill an ESTA


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ^ What happens if a person don't use an app or a cellphone? Can't cross the border?


I don't mind things like ArriveCan but a paper version (something you can fill to show border security) absolutely still needs to exist.

Otherwise this creates a huge barrier for seniors and other people who don't use computers. I really hate this requirement that's building up, to use a damned smart phone for everything.

I have several relatives who don't use smartphones and aren't good with computers. Not everyone out there uses computers or smartphones. This forum is obviously a *skewed sample* since everyone on here uses a computer (duh).


----------



## james4beach

Air Canada is cutting the number of summer flights, especially out of Toronto and Montreal



https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-canada-flights-july-august-reductions-1.6506451


----------



## ian

james4beach said:


> Air Canada is cutting the number of summer flights, especially out of Toronto and Montreal
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-canada-flights-july-august-reductions-1.6506451


Last week a number of UK airports insisted that carriers each eliminate a certain percentage of flights.


----------



## londoncalling

Decreasing the number of flights will only drive up the costs of air travel. I understand the desire to eliminate the airport congestion and delays but I am pretty well fed up with the whole scene. My neighbour travelled internationally last week and has Nexus. He was truly grateful as he said flying out of Pearson on an early morning was the worst he's ever seen and he is a regular flyer. Security lined up for regular travelers for as far as he could see. He heads out again this weekend and will provide me with an update when he gets back. Fortunately I have not had to go through YYZ and have made every effort not to if at all possible. Delta has already offered free rebookings and incentives for those travelling over the 4th of July weekend. Looks like it will be awhile before the system can handle the demand. It's too bad as I don't believe we are back to prepandemic levels.


----------



## ian

Just read today that BA announced plans to drop 650 of their scheduled July Heathrow and Gatwick flights.

This is happening in many airports throughout Europe. Canada is not alone in this respect.


----------



## newfoundlander61

Has anyone flown out of the Ottawa airport latetly, we have a flight this Saturday, just curious.


----------



## damian13ster

Honestly, I have been at over 10 airports in June alone (sadly, multiple connections required on most trips). It is an absolute hit or miss. Only airport that was reliably a **** show is Toronto.

About to check 3 other airports today, but not in Ottawa, For what it's worth, at major Canadian airports, about 50% of flights were delayed or cancelled last week. So you got 50/50 shot at making it unscathed.

One thing I have seen people do that seems completely pointless is showing up at airports 4-5h before flight. Add 30min to what you would usually do and you should be good to go - no need to go to extremes. Problems are mostly with delays/cancellations, immigration lines, less so with security lines at the check-in


----------



## Covariance

londoncalling said:


> Decreasing the number of flights will only drive up the costs of air travel. I understand the desire to eliminate the airport congestion and delays but I am pretty well fed up with the whole scene. My neighbour travelled internationally last week and has Nexus. He was truly grateful as he said flying out of Pearson on an early morning was the worst he's ever seen and he is a regular flyer. Security lined up for regular travelers for as far as he could see. He heads out again this weekend and will provide me with an update when he gets back. Fortunately I have not had to go through YYZ and have made every effort not to if at all possible. Delta has already offered free rebookings and incentives for those travelling over the 4th of July weekend. Looks like it will be awhile before the system can handle the demand. It's too bad as I don't believe we are back to prepandemic levels.


 X2 It’s very difficult there.


----------



## londoncalling

The CEO of Westjet is on BNN today to speak to their customer service issues as well as yesterday's announced reduction in flights this summer to 20-25% below 2019 numbers.


----------



## ian

What we noticed on our flights was that fewer people than usual seemed to be prepared to go through security and this resulted in unnecessary line delays. 

Those who did not have their ID or boarding pass in the hand and had to search. Those who had not bothered to place liquids in a convenient place and had to search in their bags for these items. Incredibly...the same for laptops. Some security staff seemed to be frustrated by this. 

Our AC flight home was delayed 2 hours. Why...security issue on the previous incoming flight. The staff had to put two people off the plane because they refused to wear masks.


----------



## james4beach

Is it possible that we have more novice flyers these days?

Apparently a big reason for passport delays is also that many first time (new) passport applications are coming in. These require a lot more manual work than routine renewals on previous passport holders.


----------



## ian

james4beach said:


> Is it possible that we have more novice flyers these days?
> 
> Apparently a big reason for passport delays is also that many first time (new) passport applications are coming in. These require a lot more manual work than routine renewals on previous passport holders.


Do not know. We are not flying anywhere at the moment. Hoping to get away mid Sept but this will depend on whether airline and airport issues here and in Europe get resolved. Certainly we are not booking anything.


----------



## damian13ster

2/3 flights delayed yesterday.
Both to and out of Calgary. On the flight board I estimate around 65% of the flights were either cancelled or delayed. My coworker got taken for random testing (thought they were supposed to be gone until July 1, he was taken June 30 at 10:30pm) and the test took so long that he missed his next flight, even though the flight got delayed by 1h10m

It is an absolute mess out there


----------



## james4beach

Air Canada is starting to cancel some major routes. One of my friends just had her Vancouver/Toronto flight cancelled.

Does anyone know if getting a seat assignment makes it less likely for a flight to get cancelled? I know grabbing a seat helps prevent getting _bumped_ off a flight, but can it help prevent cancellations?


----------



## londoncalling

Seat selection does not do anything to prevent cancellation. Seat sales are the only thing that I am aware of that impacts cancellation in regards to purchases. The airlines are fairly opaque in explaining when there are delays reroutes and cancellations. It is disappointing and annoying. I have a few friends that work for the airports and they say usually the grounds are reasonable weather, regulations etc. As of late the delays and cancellations are more logistical. Staffing, scheduling, parts, planes etc. Most flights are fully booked so it is not about occupancy at all which was the cause of reduced flights over the past couple years.

I looked into booking a flight to Spain this afternoon via Westjet for October. The attempt was futile as I could select dates but not book a return fare for any of the available dates. It would allow me to select a date but not choose between economy, economy plus etc. The return fare was set a $0.00 and I could not seIect any options. Perhaps it was an IT issue. I will try again tomorrow but suspect it may be part of their recent announcement of reduced flights and a greater focus on domestic routes. I already let some companion flights expire in June and may be letting the August fare lapse if I cannot book at a reasonable cost that works within my vacation window. I guess I could be optimistic and be grateful for the forced savings.  🤷‍♂️


----------



## ian

londoncalling said:


> Seat selection does not do anything to prevent cancellation. Seat sales are the only thing that I am aware of that impacts cancellation in regards to purchases. The airlines are fairly opaque in explaining when there are delays reroutes and cancellations. It is disappointing and annoying. I have a few friends that work for the airports and they say usually the grounds are reasonable weather, regulations etc. As of late the delays and cancellations are more logistical. Staffing, scheduling, parts, planes etc. Most flights are fully booked so it is not about occupancy at all which was the cause of reduced flights over the past couple years.
> 
> I looked into booking a flight to Spain this afternoon via Westjet for October. The attempt was futile as I could select dates but not book a return fare for any of the available dates. It would allow me to select a date but not choose between economy, economy plus etc. The return fare was set a $0.00 and I could not seIect any options. Perhaps it was an IT issue. I will try again tomorrow but suspect it may be part of their recent announcement of reduced flights and a greater focus on domestic routes. I already let some companion flights expire in June and may be letting the August fare lapse if I cannot book at a reasonable cost that works within my vacation window. I guess I could be optimistic and be grateful for the forced savings.  🤷‍♂️


I think that it is an IT issue. We have been pricing flights to Greece in Sept by various Canadian and European gateways. As of two days ago lots of options and prices were coming up as bookable. Same for a SE Asia flight in January.


----------



## kcowan

We booked our return flights on Westjet to PV this week. It took and hour on hold because:
1) We have an animal in cabin
2) We wanted to spend our Westjet dollars
3) We had unused companion vouchers and needed to know how to use them
4) We needed seat selection on premium economy.
It was 30 minutes to get that all done. This was for PV leaving in November and returning in May.


----------



## newfoundlander61

We started our 2 week vacation yesterday flying from Ottawa to Halifax on on to St. John's, Nfld. Drive to Ottawa very easy and quiet. Ottawa airport was dead quiet and we got through check in and customs in no time at all. Arrived Halifax on time and this where things slowed up a bit, not due to Halifax but a crew shortage coming our of Toronto. Not too bad as we just got delayed 2 hrs. Arrived in St. John's and we got our one checked in bag. No idea what Pearson was like but this worked out well for us. Our apartment Airbnb is really nice and setup with everything we need. Big added bounus our reserved rent a car with Budget at $2,400.00 for two weeks is not needed now as my brother got is Rav 4 out of the shop and repaired, so rent a car is cancelled.


----------



## latebuyer

I travelled from vancouver to calgary june 23rd and back 27th and had no problems. I guess i was lucky.


----------



## james4beach

latebuyer said:


> I travelled from vancouver to calgary june 23rd and back 27th and had no problems. I guess i was lucky.


That's great to hear, thanks. Doing similar routes in a couple days myself.

It's best to just travel with carry-ons and not check any baggage.


----------



## ian

When we were in Portugal last month there were daily reports of a 3 hour wait to clear immigration at Lisbon airport. 

BUT...this apparently only occurred during the 11AM-12:30PM window when most of the transatlantic flights arrived. There were one or two TA flights that arrived early in the AM...6:30. Their passengers went through security very quickly.


----------



## james4beach

Just went through a couple large Canadian airports. It really wasn't too bad mid week. Pretty busy at security but not too chaotic otherwise.

But there sure are a lot of coughing passengers around. I was in a Maple Leaf lounge, which was pretty nice, but the various coughing / unmasked people make me nervous. Same with the flights themselves, totally packed of course. Kind of amazing how many wet coughs I'm hearing on these flights, including a guy in the row behind me that was just blasting away (*hopefully into a firmly-fitting mask*) with a brutal wet cough plus a woman sitting next to me, connecting from Europe, occasionally coughing.

You'll want to wear a KN95 or CAN95 mask for sure. I also see many Asians wearing KF94 style masks. Domestically you could also buy a CAN99.


----------



## Johnny199r

I'm flying to Italy from Wpg-Toronto-Rome in Mid August for a few weeks. Taking carry on only, just like I've always done for the last decade.

My mom had a horrific experience going Halifax-Toronto-Winnipeg a week ago. That worst part was that Air Canada was continually lying to passengers at every turn.

"Don't worry, you will be automatically rebooked for missed connections in the air" - lol!
"A group of employees will be waiting to help you just off the plane" - said group of employees when approached "no way, it's not our job!"
"our plane is delayed getting here for reasons that change every 20 minutes when we give you new updates, but trust us, we are telling you the truth!"

Just don't lie all the time. People appreciate it more when their told the truth. I understand the front line employees try to deflect people's anger, but it's not helping.


----------



## james4beach

Has anyone flown to/from the US recently? What is currently involved in either direction?

As I understand it, the US no longer requires any test on entry. I think you just need to carry proof of vaccination (the federal document with details on your 2 doses). And you still need to use ArriveCan to get back into Canada, again confirming vaccination, but no testing is required.

Do I have this right?


----------



## damian13ster

Yes. US doesn't need anything other than 2 doses. Getting back to Canada is still anal though. Two days ago they had the arrivecan in the system, then checked when boarding, and after landing two agents were checking again - for the third time. The problem? Bunch of people were watching movies on plane on phones so batteries died - quite a commotion and lots of arguing. It is a mess


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> Yes. US doesn't need anything other than 2 doses. Getting back to Canada is still anal though. Two days ago they had the arrivecan in the system, then checked when boarding, and after landing two agents were checking again - for the third time. The problem? Bunch of people were watching movies on plane on phones so batteries died - quite a commotion and lots of arguing. It is a mess


Thanks for the info. But what's so difficult about entry to Canada?

You do ArriveCan and then save the receipt image. I presume a screen shot is enough, right? That's not any more complicated than having your boarding pass or booking reservation on the same phone.


----------



## ian

Perhaps we were the exception. I did both our ArriveCAN docs in late June.

It took me a few minutes minutes to do mine a day prior to entry. I thought that it might be a challenge. It took less time to do my spouses submission for her. I initially though that I had missed something because we had read about how onerous the process was. It was not.

Within minutes we got a QR code type response. It was complete. One or two keystrokes and we saved them on our iPads.

Flew into Toronto. We both have Nexus cards. It took us 5-10 minutes to get through immigration/customs. Late at night. Never asked for Arrivacan data. Perhaps it was linked to our respective Canadian passport numbers.

This compared well to the 2.5 hour line to clear immigration in Lisbon five weeks earlier.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> Thanks for the info. But what's so difficult about entry to Canada?
> 
> You do ArriveCan and then save the receipt image. I presume a screen shot is enough, right? That's not any more complicated than having your boarding pass or booking reservation on the same phone.


Yep, it isn't complicated unless you don't expect it to be checked for the third time and your battery runs out during flight, which was the case for multiple people. 

Simply that is not normal. I flew over 10 times this year (for work) and every single flight has different procedure once you land. Its madness


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> Within minutes we got a QR code type response. It was complete. One or two keystrokes and we saved them on our iPads.


Do you know if a screenshot is enough, once you have this response?


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Do you know if a screenshot is enough, once you have this response?


I believe a screenshot is sufficient. That being said, I’ve crossed the border 3-4 times since areiveCan launched and have never been asked to show it.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> I believe a screenshot is sufficient. That being said, I’ve crossed the border 3-4 times since areiveCan launched and have never been asked to show it.


Interesting, thanks. Maybe as @ian said above, the response is linked to the passport # automatically.


----------



## newfoundlander61

We were very lucky; blessed and fluked out this summer flying from Ottawa via Halifax to St. John's. One minor 2 hr delay on the first leg and thats it. No lost luggage everything was good. Now this new tangle with COVID testing will really add to the summer season for travellers. Wow gas is cheap here compared to the $2.15L we were paying down home.


----------



## ian

newfoundlander61 said:


> We were very lucky; blessed and fluked out this summer flying from Ottawa via Halifax to St. John's. One minor 2 hr delay on the first leg and thats it. No lost luggage everything was good. Now this new tangle with COVID testing will really add to the summer season for travellers. Wow gas is cheap here compared to the $2.15L we were paying down home.


Gas was 2.20euro, $2.95 CAD, per litre last month in Portugal. First time that we have not rented a car. So glad we decided to use the rail system instead. Not to mention to high tolls on their roads.

We paid $1.63 last week in Calgary and thought that it was a good price. Sad.


----------



## ian

james4beach said:


> Do you know if a screenshot is enough, once you have this response?


No idea whatsoever. We were not asked about it. Had we been asked we could have produced it in an instant.

We know enough to keep our ipads or phones charged up enough when proof of vaccination, etc. was requested by carriers and by various customs/immigration folks. Same story pre covid where once in a blue moon an immigration agent would ask us for proof that we had an exit flight booked or a local address.

This business about keeping a charged unit to access important electronically stored information required for travel is fairly basic to most travelers and has been for quite some time. Covid or no covid, ArriveCan or no ArriveCan. Not to mention hotel reservation confirmations, airline locator codes, etc.

If you rely on electronically stored travel data instead of hard copy docs then one should have the very basic smarts to keep the unit charged to a point where retrieval is a non issue. If not, don't blame others. Look in the mirror for the real culprit.


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> If you rely on electronically stored travel data instead of hard copy docs then one should have the very basic smarts to keep the unit charged to a point where retrieval is a non issue. If not, don't blame others. Look in the mirror for the real culprit.


Many planes also have power or USB outlets to help you charge your devices.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> Many planes also have power or USB outlets to help you charge your devices.


Yep, if people knew that was a requirement then all good. Just make rules and keep them consistent instead of flip-flopping every hour. 
You got the tracking app - at least check it once at a single point and be done with it. Or inform people ahead it will be checked 15 times throughout the journey at random points. 
Then they can get prepared for it


----------



## ian

The only time we have been checked on boarding domestic and international flights has been for our covid vaccine certificates Once each flight. And then only by the gate folks because we always do on line check in.

Each time the only thing they wanted to see was the covid QR code-electronic or paper. Just look at it, verify the name to the name on our boarding pass and that it agreed with what we uploaded to our on line check in docs. 

Domestic arrivals were as usual, off the plane and away we went.


----------



## ian

ian said:


> The only time we have been checked on boarding domestic and international flights has been for our covid vaccine certificates Once each flight. And then only by the gate folks because we always do on line check in.
> 
> Each time the only thing they wanted to see was the covid QR code-electronic or paper. Just look at it, verify the name to the name on our boarding pass and that it agreed with what we uploaded to our on line check in docs.
> 
> Domestic flight arrivals, four of them, were as usual, off the plane and away we went as per usual.
> 
> We thought the baggage area at Pearson looked backed up with bags. Until we saw what Lisbon looked like. Far worse.


----------



## damian13ster

ian said:


> The only time we have been checked on boarding domestic and international flights has been for our covid vaccine certificates Once each flight. And then only by the gate folks because we always do on line check in.
> 
> Each time the only thing they wanted to see was the covid QR code-electronic or paper. Just look at it, verify the name to the name on our boarding pass and that it agreed with what we uploaded to our on line check in docs.
> 
> Domestic arrivals were as usual, off the plane and away we went.


Yep, that was the case in vast majority of cases. For some reason it was different last week, hence the confusion, commotion, and delays


----------



## Beaver101

American Airlines passengers were left 'sobbing' after being held on a hot plane for six hours, report says



> _... "While certainly an unfortunate delay, it is something we apologize to our customers for with the combination of maintenance and weather," Trull said._


 ... unbelieveable.

AA needs a new slogan so let me quickly come up with them for "free" - "Fly with Us and You're Stucked with Us (literally)"? LMAO ...


----------



## ian

Tentatively planning to change planes in either Toronto or a European gateway in mid September. Hopefully traffic will be down a little and airport management will have rectified the majority of issues. Do not really care which as long does not become a trip from hell.


----------



## sags

We might take the "hassle free European tour" this year, after which we can tell people we traveled to London, Brussels, Dublin, Copenhagen, Seville, Vienna, Paris, Lisbon with a possbile side trip to Hamburg.

Maybe another later trip to one of the world's great natural wonders......Niagara Falls.


----------



## james4beach

How is Air Canada check-in for US travel working these days?

Previously, months ago, one could upload the vaccination PDF to the booking. However, I have some upcoming US travel and don't see any place to upload the vaccination document.

Or maybe that step has been moved to the check-in, instead of the previous method where it was uploaded in advance?


----------



## damian13ster

They moved it to the check-in. If you do it at those automatic machines, you can scan the qr code


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> They moved it to the check-in. If you do it at those automatic machines, you can scan the qr code


Thanks!


----------



## james4beach

I figured out another thing that's going on, for Air Canada

I previously uploaded a vaccination PDF doc for domestic travel many months ago. Since I did this within my profile, it seems AC remembers the document and is automatically re-using it. When I recently checked in for a US flight, there were attestation questions about vaccination (as @damian13ster mentioned) but I also noticed that my "health documents" are already complete -- it's showing a verified vaccination document, which must be due to my previous upload.


----------



## Beaver101

Passenger to Australia hit with $2,400 fine after undeclared McMuffins found in luggage

Well deserved, sang to the tune of the old MCD's commercial .... "you deserve a break today at MCD!!!!... " USCDN$2,400 please ...


----------



## ian

Beaver101 said:


> Passenger to Australia hit with $2,400 fine after undeclared McMuffins found in luggage
> 
> Well deserved, sang to the tune of the old MCD's commercial .... "you deserve a break today at MCD!!!!... " USCDN$2,400 please ...


We flew into Australia's Gold Coast airport twice pre covid. Once from Malaysia, the second time from Thailand. There were two lines for immigration. The last time we zoomed through in 5 minutes flat. What was an eye opener for us was to see others in the second line having their bags/suitcases opened. We saw stacks of food items, seemed to be meat and produce, confiscated. It seemed that anyone with a large suitcase was sent into this line. 

Same for New Zealand. On cruise stops several years ago we were warned repeatedly NOT to take any fruit, vegetables or meat products off the ship. As though we would have reason to do so. They had sniffer dogs checking...not for drugs but for food!


----------



## londoncalling

Airbnb Slumps After Bookings Missed Analyst Estimates (msn.com) 

Perhaps this will result in lower rates, better options for those planning any trips over the while. I think expectations were very high coming out of the pandemic. The war in Ukraine detered some vacations to Europe. Others site inflation as the primary driver as many expected multiple trips for vacationers in 2022. Some say return to the office sentiment is also a contributing factor. I think that would vary by industry.


----------



## Beaver101

ian said:


> We flew into Australia's Gold Coast airport twice pre covid. Once from Malaysia, the second time from Thailand. There were two lines for immigration. The last time we zoomed through in 5 minutes flat. What was an eye opener for us was to see others in the second line having their bags/suitcases opened. We saw stacks of food items, seemed to be meat and produce, confiscated. It seemed that anyone with a large suitcase was sent into this line.
> 
> Same for New Zealand. On cruise stops several years ago we were warned repeatedly NOT to take any fruit, vegetables or meat products off the ship. As though we would have reason to do so. They had sniffer dogs checking...not for drugs but for food!


 ... I wonder if they're training dogs for Covid-positive (or another infectious disease) travellers as that would be very useful in getting rid of the other requirements? Just a thought ...


----------



## james4beach

I recently went through US customs at Vancouver (YVR) and the line was pretty bad, but not terrible. I think it took me about 20 to 25 minutes to get through the queue. When you're trying to catch a flight, that feels like an eternity but actually isn't too long.

I did see several families missing their flights, but the reality is that they had arrived at US Customs too late, e.g. arriving at the customs line as your flight is already boarding. Pandemic or not, you're too late.

The two families I saw miss their flights had been connecting at YVR. Either their connection wasn't long enough to account for security & customs, or their incoming flight was heavily delayed.

*The security and US customs lines I saw at YVR seemed within normal, perhaps matching busy travel days in 2018 and 2019.*

The US customs booth itself was extremely fast. It couldn't have been longer than 60 seconds. Keep your answers short and simple, obviously.

Additionally, the US does not actually validate your vaccination document. They just make you sign an electronic attestation at check-in. Of course you'd be crazy to lie during that attestation as the US does not fool around, these are federal crimes if you lie in that declaration.


----------



## sags

Interesting website for rainy days.....teleport to a random place in the world.









MapCrunch - Random Street View


Random Street View - teleport to a random place in the world.




www.mapcrunch.com


----------



## Ponderling

Much more pedestrian out of country jaunt.

Just back from a 2.5 day driving for shopping get away to Buffalo.
150km down the QEW early in the am. 20 minutes tops at queue to cross at Peace Bridge just prior to 8am. 

Then breakfast at IHOP to kill time until some shops open at 9am. 

Wally World, Target, Burlington Coat, Dollar Stores, craft stores, used book stores, and thrift shops on the north and south ends of town over the course of the next two days. 

Filled in arrivecan before departing. Got though our things to do at 1:15pm. 

Crossed back across peace bridge and no friction even though we had listed earlier we were coming back about 5pm. .


----------



## Beaver101

^ You missed the August 1st long weekend mob past. Smart.


----------



## ian

We had a seven hour delay on an Air Transat flight coming home from Faro, Portugal this past June.

In accordance with EU261 regulations, we made a claim with Transat for 600Euro each in compensation.

This week, five weeks after making the claim, Transat sent us a note apologizing for the delay and advising us that the claim was satisfied in full and a cheque was being mailed to us.


----------



## damian13ster

Yeah, EU has really good customer protection when it comes to air travel.


----------



## ian

damian13ster said:


> Yeah, EU has really good customer protection when it comes to air travel.


My understanding, after reading the regulations, is that they also apply to EU based carriers flying from North America to Europe. 

IF our TAP flight to Lisbon/Madeira had been delayed leaving Toronto we would be entitled to claim, depending of course on the reason for the delay.

IF we had been on an Air Canada or Transat flight to an EU country from Canada we would not be entitled to the same compensation schedule.

Bottom line, all things considered, we are much better off from a consumer protection perspective, selecting and being ticketed on a KLM, Lufthansa, TAP, etc EU based, airline for return air to Europe or one way home from Europe rather than a NA based carrier.


----------



## Beaver101

https://ca.yahoo.com/news/british-tourists-spain-roasted-country-154400613.html

Spain, anyone? I wonder which cheap enough European country will be next to mandate A/C that can't go below 27C (in public places only). Obviously, this ain't applicable to its wonderful sun-roasting beaches ... LMAO.


----------



## ian

Beav
[QUOTE="Beaver101 said:


> https://ca.yahoo.com/news/british-tourists-spain-roasted-country-154400613.html
> 
> Spain, anyone? I wonder which cheap enough European country will be next to mandate A/C that can't go below 27C (in public places only). Obviously, this ain't applicable to its wonderful sun-roasting beaches ... LMAO.


Several other European countries are in the process of doing the same.


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## kcowan

We use 28C in PV. Anything colder is uncomfortable.


----------



## ian

kcowan said:


> We use 28C in PV. Anything colder is uncomfortable.


About the same for us. When we visit my spouses family in Ontario during the summer I literally have to go outside to warm up...or put on a light sweater. More like 22/23


----------



## james4beach

Ditto. Mine is at 27C. Outside was as high as 38 today.

I don't want to go below 27. I find that it just feels awful when going in & out, too unnatural.


----------



## Beaver101

ian said:


> About the same for us. When we visit my spouses family in Ontario during the summer I literally have to go outside to warm up...or put on a light sweater. More like 22/23


 ... 22/23C=72/73F is the "ideal" to be comfortable. Anything above or below that is either asking for a warm up or a cooling down. That's why I love the spring season and not so much for the other 3.

27C=80.6F to be precise which is good for a warm bath IMO.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Ditto. Mine is at 27C. Outside was as high as 38 today.
> 
> I don't want to go below 27. I find that it just feels awful when going in & out, too unnatural.


 ... I know a friend of a friend who sets the temp in his house at about 65F=18C(?) for about all year round. This is just right for him and his pets. And no, the pets don't wear pjs but he does.


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## kcowan

My kids used to have the AC at 23 and did not use our pool as much as they could have because inside temp discouraged them. And any pool setting below 85 was unacceptable to them.

When they left, we got back to 28 inside and in the pool.


----------



## HappilyRetired

ian said:


> About the same for us. When we visit my spouses family in Ontario during the summer I literally have to go outside to warm up...or put on a light sweater. More like 22/23


Imagine if they bring the same rules to Canada. Sure many people here think 27C is comfortable enough inside and will have no complaints, but it will be the reverse in winter. You won't be allowed to go higher than 15C.


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## ian

If we remain in Canada for the winter I have no doubt that we will be warm and toasty. This is Europe issue. 

Chances are high we will be back to enjoying beach weather for a few months this winter...not in Canada of course. Our home thermostat will be set lower than 15.


----------



## Money172375

Went to local Service Canada to submit new application for an expired passport. We were 2nd in line. whole process took about 20 minutes. Funny thing though….they don’t accept cash at Service Canada. Didn’t want to push the issue, but that seems ridiculous.

on a side note, in relation to the Canada Post banking thread…..if the government doesn’t want to accept cash at Service Canada, I can’t see how they would run a “bank” or bank-like services in remote post office locations.


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## m3s

Money172375 said:


> Went to local Service Canada to submit new application for an expired passport. We were 2nd in line. whole process took about 20 minutes. Funny thing though….they don’t accept cash at Service Canada. Didn’t want to push the issue, but that seems ridiculous.
> 
> on a side note, in relation to the Canada Post banking thread…..if the government doesn’t want to accept cash at Service Canada, I can’t see how they would run a “bank” or bank-like services in remote post office locations.


Our payment system is a hot mess

Once Pierre is PM you can pay Service Canada with Bitcoin if you want. Maybe solve the debt issue at the same time

It's about freedom


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Went to local Service Canada to submit new application for an expired passport. We were 2nd in line. whole process took about 20 minutes. Funny thing though….they don’t accept cash at Service Canada. Didn’t want to push the issue, but that seems ridiculous.
> 
> on a side note, in relation to the Canada Post banking thread…..if the government doesn’t want to accept cash at Service Canada, I can’t see how they would run a “bank” or bank-like services in remote post office locations.


 ... I didn't know TD buddying up with CP will be run like the government.

Btw, why are you paying in cash when you're given the convenience of paying with your TD credit card? To earn points, miles, cashback, etc. Don't the (including yours) banks just love that?


----------



## damian13ster

Money172375 said:


> Went to local Service Canada to submit new application for an expired passport. We were 2nd in line. whole process took about 20 minutes. Funny thing though….they don’t accept cash at Service Canada. Didn’t want to push the issue, but that seems ridiculous.
> 
> on a side note, in relation to the Canada Post banking thread…..if the government doesn’t want to accept cash at Service Canada, I can’t see how they would run a “bank” or bank-like services in remote post office locations.


Huh, in significant amount of countries businesses are legally obliged to accept cash as a form of payment - so that people who have no bank accounts or other means are not excluded.
Guess that is not the case in Canada though - quick google search shows that accepting cash is not mandatory


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ... I didn't know TD buddying up with CP will be run like the government.
> 
> Btw, why are you paying in cash when you're given the convenience of paying with your TD credit card? To earn points, miles, cashback, etc. Don't the (including yours) banks just love that?


Had the cash in my wallet and wanted to get rid of it.


----------



## Money172375

damian13ster said:


> Huh, in significant amount of countries businesses are legally obliged to accept cash as a form of payment - so that people who have no bank accounts or other means are not excluded.
> Guess that is not the case in Canada though - quick google search shows that accepting cash is not mandatory


I knew it wasn’t mandatory to accept cash, but for a federally managed service like Service Canada……..not accepting the currency of the same government just feels weird.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> I knew it wasn’t mandatory to accept cash, but for a federally managed service like Service Canada……..not accepting the currency of the same government just feels weird.


I agree, that seems very weird to me.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I agree, that seems very weird to me.


 ...seriously, 2+ years in a pandemic and you haven't learned that retailers, let alone the government would prefer you use your credit card - particularly "tap" instead of taking cash (bills, toonies, dimes, et al)? What's so weird about that? I can understand if we didn't have a pandemic, then to not accept them physical cash would be weird. Moreover, now that we have monkeypox, do you want to handle them cash? The only places I'm aware that only accepted cash were those that didn't charge for the HST which were like 1 out of 100.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Had the cash in my wallet and wanted to get rid of it.


 ... stick them in the Salvation Army donation box or save them when Rogers have another outage or feed a homeless or a street musician. I got plenty of other ideas if you don't have one to get rid of your cash.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ...seriously, 2+ years in a pandemic and you haven't learned that retailers, let alone the government would prefer you use your credit card - particularly "tap" instead of taking cash (bills, toonies, dimes, et al)? What's so weird about that? I can understand if we didn't have a pandemic, then to not accept them physical cash would be weird. Moreover, now that we have monkeypox, do you want to handle them cash? The only places I'm aware that only accepted cash were those that didn't charge for the HST which were like 1 out of 100.


Prefer vs. Decline is a big difference. If a federal Government Agency won’t accept Canadian cash, then we might as well scrap cash completely. I’m sure they’d love to do that and track everything electronically, but the uproar would be monumental..


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Prefer vs. Decline is a big difference. If a federal Government Agency won’t accept Canadian cash, then we might as well scrap cash completely. I’m sure they’d love to do that and track everything electronically, but the uproar would be monumental..


My fear is that there *won't* be an uproar. The public has been trained to tolerate surveillance.

People have been trained to use plastic credit cards, and even worse, their smart phones (tracking devices) to do everything. This creates an incredible paper trail.

Cash provides privacy and freedom from tracking but not everyone appreciates or understands this advantage.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Prefer vs. Decline is a big difference. If a federal Government Agency won’t accept Canadian cash, then we might as well scrap cash completely. I’m sure they’d love to do that and track everything electronically, but the uproar would be monumental..


 ... then let me ask you - did you have the exact cash amount for them? If so, and they declined, did you not ask them for a reason? If not, then why didn't you raise a stink there? 

Let me put it this way - am I all surprised a governmental agency does not accept cash? NO as this happened to me WAY BEFORE the pandemic. I found out the "hard way" with Toronto's famous public transit systems (aka TTC), they do NOT like to accept cash EVEN when in the exact amount. You see it's too much for them booth collector to handle (aka count and touch) them $20, 10 and a couple of twoonies along with 2 quarters for a metropass when you can pay via credit card. When I raised the stink with their corporate office, they told me they would only accept up to 25 loonies as a form of payment as some Canadian currency act (aka BS). If you have a hard time believing this, then it's not weird at all that Service Canada "declined" your cash payment especially during a pandemic.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> My fear is that there *won't* be an uproar. The public has been trained to tolerate surveillance.
> 
> People have been trained to use plastic credit cards, and even worse, their smart phones (tracking devices) to do everything. This creates an incredible paper trail.
> 
> Cash provides privacy and freedom from tracking but not everyone appreciates or understands this advantage.


 ... I wholeheartedly AGREE with you 110%. And guess whose fault it is to BEGIN with? The f-banks and now the mobile companies.


----------



## james4beach

About travel plans...

For any of you flying within the US, you'll want to wear your best quality medical grade N95 or N99 style of mask. I know that masks are now optional in the US, but I was shocked at how few passengers were wearing them in the airports.

The security screening line was densely packed with people, while a woman had a wet cough (no mask) blasting that repeatedly into the crowd. People were just inches from each other.

I don't mind maskless people when people are sparse, but these dense crowds were nuts. Now imagine the same thing happening during cold & flu season when more people are carrying infections.


----------



## ian

Beaver101 said:


> ... then let me ask you - did you have the exact cash amount for them? If so, and they declined, did you not ask them for a reason? If not, then why didn't you raise a stink there?
> 
> Let me put it this way - am I all surprised a governmental agency does not accept cash? NO as this happened to me WAY BEFORE the pandemic. I found out the "hard way" with Toronto's famous public transit systems (aka TTC), they do NOT like to accept cash EVEN when in the exact amount. You see it's too much for them booth collector to handle (aka count and touch) them $20, 10 and a couple of twoonies along with 2 quarters for a metropass when you can pay via credit card. When I raised the stink with their corporate office, they told me they would only accept up to 25 loonies as a form of payment as some Canadian currency act (aka BS). If you have a hard time believing this, then it's not weird at all that Service Canada "declined" your cash payment especially during a pandemic.


We were in Toronto in late June. Took the subway at Young/Bloor to catch the airport train.

We paid in cash, seniors rate, at the turnstile booth. Required exact fare and dropped it in the fare box. $2.75 each as I recall. There was supervisor nearby but he was not manning the booth. He told us what to do since we did not have an oyster or whatever the card is that you need.


----------



## james4beach

Westjet and Air Canada are continuing to deny many delay compensation claims

Customers cry foul as Air Canada, WestJet continue to deny certain compensation claims despite new directive


----------



## Beaver101

ian said:


> We were in Toronto in late June. Took the subway at Young/Bloor to catch the airport train.
> 
> We paid in cash, seniors rate, at the turnstile booth. Required exact fare and dropped it in the fare box. $2.75 each as I recall. There was supervisor nearby but he was not manning the booth. He told us what to do since we did not have an oyster or whatever the card is that you need.


 ... I don't disbelieve those who think the TTC stands for Take The Car instead of Toronto Transit Commission.


----------



## ian

Beaver101 said:


> ... I don't disbelieve those who think the TTC stands for Take The Car instead of Toronto Transit Commission.


Depends where you live in Toronto.

We lived downtown for four years. Never owned a car. Bicycles and TTC did it for us. When we wanted a car we did a weekend special from Tillden (at that time).

Our son lives in the Kensingon area. As soon as he gets back from his road trip to the Maritimes he is going to sell his car. Insurance, parking, mtce, gas etc is not worth it to him or his girlfriend. They realized after two years that they used bicycles and TTC far more than they did their car. He depends on TTC to get to various work sites.

When we go to Toronto it is the train to downtown for us. TTC subway, red rocket, or walking for us. Never needed or wanted a car.


----------



## james4beach

If your destination in Toronto is on one of the transit lines, you should use the UP Express train which links Pearson airport to the transit lines.

It's a very good service, for example, YYZ to downtown Toronto in 25 minutes for minimal cost. I wish this had existed back when I lived in Toronto.

That's $12 to get downtown instead of $60 using a taxi. And if you use a Presto transit card there's an additional discount, it's only $9.25 adult or $5.80 for seniors.

I mean, airport to downtown for $9 in under half an hour, without any risk of traffic delays, is really incredible.


----------



## ian

james4beach said:


> If your destination in Toronto is on one of the transit lines, you should use the UP Express train which links Pearson airport to the transit lines.
> 
> It's a very good service, for example, YYZ to downtown Toronto in 25 minutes for minimal cost. I wish this had existed back when I lived in Toronto.
> 
> That's $12 to get downtown instead of $60 using a taxi. And if you use a Presto transit card there's an additional discount, it's only $9.25 adult or $5.80 for seniors.
> 
> I mean, airport to downtown for $9 in under half an hour, without any risk of traffic delays, is really incredible.


Half of that is you are seniors like us. We either go downtown for $6. each or to Bloor for $3 each (then to TTC) depending on our hotel.

It is the only way to go! Excellent service.


----------



## Beaver101

ian said:


> Depends where you live in Toronto.


 ... but mostly where you work.



> We lived downtown for four years. Never owned a car. Bicycles and TTC did it for us. When we wanted a car we did a weekend special from Tillden (at that time).
> 
> Our son lives in the Kensingon area. As soon as he gets back from his road trip to the Maritimes he is going to sell his car. Insurance, parking, mtce, gas etc is not worth it to him or his girlfriend. They realized after two years that they used bicycles and TTC far more than they did their car. He depends on TTC to get to various work sites.
> 
> When we go to Toronto it is the train to downtown for us. TTC subway, red rocket, or walking for us. Never needed or wanted a car.


 ... of course not if you live and work in downtown which I do, all my life, hence I don't drive. However, there are others (such as family members) who works outside of the city would need a car plus those who own a business. I don't think you can get around with your shopping cart (even the biggest) with more than a case of bottle (24) water for example, let alone haul stuffs from Home Depot like wood planks, 25L earth, etc. Ie. you would need a car for that kind of hauling. it's funny that my next door neighbour _loves_ to shop at Costco. Do you suppose he can take the TTC hauling his steaks and what other goodies so he can host his daily BBQs? Nope, the guy has 2 autos, one mini-van and a BMW. I say if you live anywhere above Bloor St., (mid-town or uptown like North York or Scarborough), and a family there's no way you can do without a car.


----------



## Beaver101

ian said:


> Half of that is you are seniors like us. We either go downtown for $6. each or to Bloor for $3 each (then to TTC) depending on our hotel.
> 
> It is the only way to go! Excellent service.


 ... I would agree "excellent" service only you don't have contact with any of the TTC staff. And that the transits are on time. Sometimes, it's as reliable as ... when there's a traffic accident, don't bank on your streetcar coming in on time. How about a half an hour wait and you need to get to the dental appointment? Never mind about work. Of course, you can re-route but that probably save you 5 minutes at most.

Don't forget the above is applicable during "nice" sunny weather. Wait until it snows in the winter... especially first snowfall ... bound to be traffic jam ups .. LOL.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> If your destination in Toronto is on one of the transit lines, you should use the UP Express train which links Pearson airport to the transit lines.
> 
> It's a very good service, for example, YYZ to downtown Toronto in 25 minutes for minimal cost. I wish this had existed back when I lived in Toronto.
> 
> That's $12 to get downtown instead of $60 using a taxi. And if you use a Presto transit card there's an additional discount, it's only $9.25 adult or $5.80 for seniors.
> 
> I mean, airport to downtown for $9 in under half an hour, without any risk of traffic delays, is really incredible.


 ... I heard about that but haven't tried it as I prefer to take a limo to the airport when travelling. No need to haul your luggages and worry about being delayed/need to be on time. And I don't mind paying for the extra dollars for that service. No Uber, strictly reputable (licensed) airport limos.

I don't mind taking the TTC when returning though ... $3.25 cash or a token - all the way from airport to downtown. About a 45 minutes ride via bus, then subway .... boy do you get your money's worth. Thing is I don't need to be punctual to get home.


----------



## ian

I tend to be a glass half full person.

We do not pay TTC to go downtown. Only UCP. Then walk ten minutes our hotel in the entertainment district

If we get off the UPC at Bloor we take the subway to Yonge/Bloor we pay a TTC fare.

Fifteen/twenty minutes on UPC to Bloor , no more than a half hour to walk over to the Bloor TTC station, catch a subway and get off at the Yonge/Bloor station.


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> If we get off the UPC at Bloor we take the subway to Yonge/Bloor we pay a TTC fare.


Just a question about this to make sure I understand what you're describing.

You mentioned using the UP and getting off at the Bloor station (that's Bloor & Dundas) and then taking the subway to Bloor & Yonge.

Is there any advantage of doing that, versus taking UP all the way to Union station, where you can also connect to a subway to Bloor & Yonge?


----------



## ian

james4beach said:


> Just a question about this to make sure I understand what you're describing.
> 
> You mentioned using the UP and getting off at the Bloor station (that's Bloor & Dundas) and then taking the subway to Bloor & Yonge.
> 
> Is there any advantage of doing that, versus taking UP all the way to Union station, where you can also connect to a subway to Bloor & Yonge?


Just tends to be a little faster in our experience if we are staying in the Yonge/Bloor area...which we sometimes do on our Marriott points. . A very minor plus is that the fare to Bloor is half of the fare to Union Station. We would only do this in good weather. Same if we are going to Pearson.

Not about to do it during inclement weather when we have to walk a block or two from the Bloor UP station to the Bloor subway station.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> I mean, airport to downtown for $9 in under half an hour, without any risk of traffic delays, is really incredible.


It might be incredible in Toronto, but in many cities that's just every day normal.


----------



## Beaver101

‘Aggressive’ bus driver nearly spoiled summer camp outing for group of kids with epilepsy, organizer says

It never fails that every public transit system always has some "ASSININED" employees.

Now the MiWay (aka Mississauga Transit System) has made it to the news (likely again, gotta to be current!), picking on groups with disabled people.

I bet dollars for donuts it had nothing to do with the "discounted" tickets that the group used for the ride. It's the dumb-assed bus driver's attitude towards the "looks" of the leader who presented it. For one, why is the driver concerned with those tickets like with his assinined question of "what's this?" For one, did he think the group had "printed" up their own tickets? Besides, what concern is it to him on this when his job is only to "drive" the bus and ensure the safety of his passengers, not to "verify" tickets authencity. Or did he missed the memo from years (5+?) ago what his job "actually" requires him to do - for one, not harass the passengers. Even the fare-inspectors ain't dumb enough to do that. It never ceases to amaze me there continues to exist such employees ... and I thought the TTC was bad enough on this account.


----------



## Beaver101

Airbnb almost as expensive as a hotel, figures show, as growing fees prompt user outrage

Above article is behind a paywall but one can get the gist from its title. Am I surprised? NO (and this exclude the horror stories of "fake" listings/bookings.)


----------



## Plugging Along

damian13ster said:


> Huh, in significant amount of countries businesses are legally obliged to accept cash as a form of payment - so that people who have no bank accounts or other means are not excluded.
> Guess that is not the case in Canada though - quick google search shows that accepting cash is not mandatory


It's also not the case in the US. We just came back. We usually give our kids a cash budget for their spending and most of our purchases except hotel is cash too. We went to a theme park and it was credit only. I asked how do tween/s teens who go by themselves and have no credit card or debit with them buy stuff. They said the parent can create a wrist band that links up to the parents card and it will scan like their credit card. I asked what happens if they lose wrist band or is there a limit. They said they can get a new one. I asked how do the cancell the first one, they said dunno. So essentially you leave a kid with a wrist band and can charge anything. I was just really surprised about this.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Beaver101 said:


> ... I don't disbelieve those who think the TTC stands for Take The Car instead of Toronto Transit Commission.


I always thought it was an initialism for Takes Time Coming.

But, when I was a kid, all the subway cars had a red ball hanging on a cord in one corner that a sign: "Emergency. Pull to stop train." Under that: "Penalty for Misuse $20." I always thought that was rather sporting of the elves at the TTC to let you have a go at that for 20 bucks.


----------



## Beaver101

^ There's no red ball hanging on a cord these days for that. Instead there's a yellow strip, presumably electronically connected to the conductor's dashboard. I never had the chance to touch it and I don't think I ever will (hopefully, no emergency in my train compartment!). 

And the fine is nowhere near $20 (good for 2 Starbucks + a baked good?) for hitting/buzzing that illegitimately. Try a $1K fine (which I'm not even certain is that low nowadays) and/or a jailterm.


----------



## Beaver101

Welcome to ‘hotel shrinkflation,’ where rates are high and perks may never return

Above is behind a paywall but one can get the idea from the title. Man oh man, hotels are giving the competition to AirBnB.

But then business travellers would need to either cheap out on their expenses or do a total upgrade if not contented with the cheat-in. So consider setting up a tent at the local park for the night (weather permitting though and make sure there's a water fountain for brushing your teeth) or go the Ritz Carlton route. At least, you get some service with the latter instead of paying for no-service or self-service with the tent camping set up.


----------



## ian

We are shopping. But not in North America. Looking at Greek Island or Morocco in Sept/Oct, Puerto Vallarta 5 star AI (just a hotel booking not the package) in mid/late November for for 10-14 days, and Thailand for snowbird.

Here is what we have found based on pre covid pricing. Greece up slightly on some islands. Puerta Vallarta about the same. Thailand/Malaysia .looks about the same as previous years.

Western Canada hotels....Banff, Salmon Arm, Kelowna way, way up. The rate on our June downtown Toronto hotel was $550 for the days we were there, then is dropped to $270. Big gay parade in town. Fortunately we were able to use our Marriott points.

Air...in Canada, US up, up, up 10-25 percent. International (from Toronto) up about 5-10 percent from 2 years ago BUT there are still some bargains to had at 2020 prices or less depending on gateway destination and airline.

The return air fare to Toronto to Athens, Morocco, Paris, London,etc. is the same or almost the same as the return air fare Calgary-Toronto.

Toronto-Morocco air on AC is exactly what it was is Sept 2020.

We were in Portugal for a month in May/June. Did not find air or accommodation to have increased over the past few years. But this was shoulder season.

Our pre flight Calgary airport hotel was about the price that we have paid for the past four years.

No idea if we will go anywhere. Depends on a few personal and family issues. We are always shopping for travel.


----------



## damian13ster

New airline just popped up that flies from New York/Boston/Chicago to Europe. Dirt cheap. Got my ticket for 380 RT


----------



## ian

Just got a compensation check from AIr Transat 

Compare this to the current situation at Westjet and Air Canada:

22/6 Plane from Portugal-Toronto was 7 hours late leaving Faro

24/6 Submitted a claim on the Transat web site for 600 euro each compensation as per EU261 regs

24/6 Claim acknowledged and claim number provided

05/8 Rely from Transat. Apology and confirmation that Transat would issue 2 cheques for $785. each and that they would be mailed within 2-3 weeks

17/8 Cheques arrived. Claim satisfied.


----------



## kcowan

But that was following EU rules that only apply to planes connecting to or leaving the EU.


----------



## ian

kcowan said:


> But that was following EU rules that only apply to planes connecting to or leaving the EU.


Yes. 

Yes, it applies to flights from NA to Europe on EU based airlines. So, if we have a choice of flying to Europe on an EU flagged carrier, all things being equal, I will select the EU carrier. Flying to an EU county(or one that follows EU rules) we will select ticketing on TAP, Lufthansa, etc vs AC, Westjet, or Transat all things being equal.

What impressed me was how the claim was handled. No pushback, no voucher or credit nonsense. Prompt response and a cheque!

One other difference...when we were in line to finally board Transat handed an information sheet outlining the EU rules. My guess is that this is also part of the EU rules. Can anyone imagine AC or Westjet informing customers of what the CTA rules around flight delays/cancellations are???


----------



## ian

Just booked 15/11-25/11 to Puerto Vallarta on Westjet. Difficult to get direct return flights for under $750 return. Transat is not flying from Calgary yet so my guess is not enough competition. Plus we had a small Westjet credit to use. 

Booked our Nuevo Vallarta AI through a UK firm just as we have done in prior years.


----------



## milhouse

Behind a paywall but an article in the G&M notes predictions of cheaper flights in North America (within Canada, within the US, and transborder flights) in the fall lasting to the end of November/early December before the xmas holidays due to: growing competition from LCC's like Lynx, Flair, Swoop, etc, demand/traffic dropping off from the summer peak, airlines enticing leisure travellers who aren't eager to fly due to the chaos seen in the summer (like me  ), and additional capacity as new hires by airports and airlines are onboarded and become more experienced. 









Canadians will find ultra cheap airfares this fall


Growing competition on domestic and Canada-U.S. routes and a likely steeper-than-usual seasonal drop in demand for leisure travel mean airlines are slashing prices to fill planes




www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## ian

milhouse said:


> Behind a paywall but an article in the G&M notes predictions of cheaper flights in North America (within Canada, within the US, and transborder flights) in the fall lasting to the end of November/early December before the xmas holidays due to: growing competition from LCC's like Lynx, Flair, Swoop, etc, demand/traffic dropping off from the summer peak, airlines enticing leisure travellers who aren't eager to fly due to the chaos seen in the summer (like me  ), and additional capacity as new hires by airports and airlines are onboarded and become more experienced.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canadians will find ultra cheap airfares this fall
> 
> 
> Growing competition on domestic and Canada-U.S. routes and a likely steeper-than-usual seasonal drop in demand for leisure travel mean airlines are slashing prices to fill planes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theglobeandmail.com


We priced fares Toronto-Calgary for late October. Current prices indicate $128 on WJ or AC. Prices to Toronto in early Sept. are $348 on the majors. 

Our best fare in a long time...$58. one way Westjet flight Calgary-Toronto this past May 23rd, booked in late March.

It is the same price to fly return Toronto-Athens in mid/late Sept -mid late Oct. on AC or Transat as it is to fly Calgary-Fort McMurray return.


----------



## james4beach

I stumbled across this ArriveCan idea. Has anyone tried this?

My parents sometimes have laptops, but struggle a lot with them when travelling. Sometimes they don't have a computer at all.

What if I set up their ArriveCan account. We load their passport and vaccination certificates into them, and I know the account login. Then, when they're going to return to Canada, we can talk on the phone, and I can log into their ArriveCan account and do the entry declaration for them.

I believe the ArriveCan declaration is already linked to the passport #, so there are probably no further questions. On my screen, I would see their QR code. But the system also generates an alphanumeric output. On my last entry, I got a 6 digit code.

I could read that code to them on the phone and they could write it down. Perhaps, if asked, they could give that to the border agent as proof of having done the declaration.


----------



## damian13ster

Not sure if that would work. They look at QR code.
Worst case scenario just ignore it. They can't forbid them from entering and worst case scenario you get a ticket that you can throw in fireplace


----------



## TomB16

James, please report back on how this goes. It is an extremely interesting idea.

If this works, it demonstrates just how ridiculous ArriveCan is.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> James, please report back on how this goes. It is an extremely interesting idea.
> 
> If this works, it demonstrates just how ridiculous ArriveCan is.


I will definitely share any info on whether these methods work. I am suggesting to my parents that we can try the phone-based method.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> James, please report back on how this goes. It is an extremely interesting idea.
> 
> *If this works, it demonstrates just how ridiculous ArriveCan is.*


 ... yep, for the "average" Canadian.

No further comment o/w I'll be labeled as a conspiracy theorist.


----------



## Money172375

I‘ve travelled 3 times since AreiveCan was launched. Was never asked to show the QR code.
I think your idea will work James. As soon as the passport is scanned, border patrol will see the app was completed. At least, I’m quite certain, they see it.

During my last entry, I didn’t even speak to any live person upon entry. Filled in the declaration or whatever those computers at Pearson are……then was shuffled out the door to baggage claim.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> I‘ve travelled 3 times since AreiveCan was launched. Was never asked to show the QR code.
> I think your idea will work James. As soon as the passport is scanned, border patrol will see the app was completed. At least, I’m quite certain, they see it.
> 
> During my last entry, I didn’t even speak to any live person upon entry. Filled in the declaration or whatever those computers at Pearson are……then was shuffled out the door to baggage claim.


Thanks!


----------



## scorpion_ca

Money172375 said:


> I‘ve travelled 3 times since AreiveCan was launched. Was never asked to show the QR code.
> I think your idea will work James. As soon as the passport is scanned, border patrol will see the app was completed. At least, I’m quite certain, they see it.


I needed to show the AriveCan QR code/number at the departure airports in February. Most likely they put the number in the system.


----------



## james4beach

scorpion_ca said:


> I needed to show the AriveCan QR code/number at the departure airports in February. Most likely they put the number in the system.


Oh right, I didn't think about that: maybe the airline (at departure) needs to see it too.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> I stumbled across this ArriveCan idea. Has anyone tried this?
> 
> My parents sometimes have laptops, but struggle a lot with them when travelling. Sometimes they don't have a computer at all.
> 
> What if I set up their ArriveCan account. We load their passport and vaccination certificates into them, and I know the account login. Then, when they're going to return to Canada, we can talk on the phone, and I can log into their ArriveCan account and do the entry declaration for them.
> 
> I believe the ArriveCan declaration is already linked to the passport #, so there are probably no further questions. On my screen, I would see their QR code. But the system also generates an alphanumeric output. On my last entry, I got a 6 digit code.
> 
> I could read that code to them on the phone and they could write it down. Perhaps, if asked, they could give that to the border agent as proof of having done the declaration.


I know when we arrived at the border the passport were linked to the ArriveCan and the border did not require anything else.

It seems to be the QR code part that is the problem for your parents. I know we entered everything in on my dad's behalf, but had someone print for him. Do you parents have access to email, smart phone, ipad or laptop? One alternative perhaps is that you can download the QR code and email or text them the screen shot. The challenge would they would have to be able to pull it up on some device. On a side note, I was have problems with my phone when we were travelling, but brought my laptop and pulled up a local copy of my records. 

Could this work?


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> Do you parents have access to email, smart phone, ipad or laptop? One alternative perhaps is that you can download the QR code and email or text them the screen shot. The challenge would they would have to be able to pull it up on some device. On a side note, I was have problems with my phone when we were travelling, but brought my laptop and pulled up a local copy of my records.


Good idea, and my dad usually has a laptop. I can email it to him and he can probably pull it up, though he will struggle with the Wifi hot spots while travelling


----------



## ian

james4beach said:


> I stumbled across this ArriveCan idea. Has anyone tried this?
> 
> My parents sometimes have laptops, but struggle a lot with them when travelling. Sometimes they don't have a computer at all.
> 
> What if I set up their ArriveCan account. We load their passport and vaccination certificates into them, and I know the account login. Then, when they're going to return to Canada, we can talk on the phone, and I can log into their ArriveCan account and do the entry declaration for them.
> 
> I believe the ArriveCan declaration is already linked to the passport #, so there are probably no further questions. On my screen, I would see their QR code. But the system also generates an alphanumeric output. On my last entry, I got a 6 digit code.
> 
> I could read that code to them on the phone and they could write it down. Perhaps, if asked, they could give that to the border agent as proof of having done the declaration.


That is exactly what we did while in Portugal in June. I wanted to ensure that I did not have to futz around on the last day. I did two forms because I did not know that I could do both of ours on one form. We zoomed through immigration in Toronto. 10 minutes max via nexus. Never was asked for anything other than passport so I assumed that somehow Arrivecan was linked and the agent could see everything on the screen.


----------



## james4beach

There was a brief note during the CBC radio news this evening, where someone reported that *paper form alternatives* to ArriveCan are actually available, at least at YVR.

Apparently it's not advertised, but it's possible to just fill paperwork when arriving at YVR in lieu of using the software. Not sure if every airport has that available.


----------



## ian

james4beach said:


> There was a brief note during the CBC radio news this evening, where someone reported that *paper form alternatives* to ArriveCan are actually available, at least at YVR.
> 
> Apparently it's not advertised, but it's possible to just fill paperwork when arriving at YVR in lieu of using the software. Not sure if every airport has that available.


A friend of ours flew home into YVR two months ago. 

Neither he nor his spouse had filled out ArriveCan. They were apparently oblivious to it. 

Not only were paper forms available here was someone on hand to help him fill out the form.


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> Not only were paper forms available here was someone on hand to help him fill out the form.


That's fantastic news, thanks. Looks like CBSA has smartened up and is providing some paper.

I wonder if YYZ has the paper option too? Does anyone know?


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> That's fantastic news, thanks. Looks like CBSA has smartened up and is providing some paper.
> 
> I wonder if YYZ has the paper option too? Does anyone know?


 not sure. But are foreign airports asking To see ArriveCan for Canadian bound passengers still?


----------



## james4beach

I was able to talk with someone at the ArriveCan program and wanted to pass on this info. This seems to confirm the suspicion that many of us had.

They told me the CBSA agents are able to retrieve the ArriveCan declaration using the travel document number (often the passport #). That suggests to me that the actual receipt or QR code generated is not required, as long as you're consistently using your Canadian PP# for everything ... but the ArriveCan person would not confirm that part.



Money172375 said:


> not sure. But are foreign airports asking To see ArriveCan for Canadian bound passengers still?


When I last came from a US airport, the check-in agents wanted to see my proof of vaccination but did not specifically ask for an ArriveCan receipt.

I would still make absolutely sure that you are carrying a hard-copy of the official federal vaccination sheet.


----------



## Money172375

I said earlier some version of ArriveCan is likely here to stay.

now we have “ArriveUSA”.









‘We basically got to skip the entire line’: Toronto Pearson travellers can use this app when flying to the U.S.


Those travelling through Toronto Pearson International Airport to select U.S. destinations might be able to avoid long lines at customs by using this app.




toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## ian

We recently spent 5 weeks in Portugal. Four of those weeks were on the mainland. For the first time ever we traveled everywhere by public transport, mostly train.

As seniors we got half fare. We had to sign in the railway app and provide our passport number. From then on we automatically got half fares when booking.

On one of our first trips the conductor did not even ask for a ecopy of our reservation. He asked for our passport as soon as we spoke in English and swiped in the passport into his handheld. I could see his hand held screen. Our previous train trips came up on his tiny screen along with the current trip, and a future trip that we had booked four days in advance.

It was very slick. Saved us from showing our passport as proof of age and having to do it in person each time we made a reservation/ purchased a ticket.


----------



## londoncalling

I've noticed a lack of hotel shuttle service in comparison to prepandemic. The airport hotels will still shuttle to and from but many of the downtown hotels eliminated the service during Covid. Many of the hotels I would stay at during vacation also shuttle guests around the city if available. Now one is left with Uber, Lyft or taxi. It makes sense as it saves the hotel money but it was a perk I enjoyed for a small tip to the driver. I find the shuttle drivers know more about the city, such as restaurants, tourist spots and even hidden gems. I guess one can find this information using online tools such as tripadvisor, urbanspoon etc. However, one has to wade through a ton of tourist commentary and often just learn of places to avoid.


----------



## Money172375

Canada to make ArriveCan optional, drop vaccine requirement at the border by Sept. 30


Mask requirements on trains and planes will remain in place, but random COVID-19 testing will end




www.theglobeandmail.com













Canada to drop COVID-19 vaccine border policy, ArriveCan to be optional: sources


The federal government plans to drop its COVID-19 vaccine border requirements by the end of September and make the ArriveCan application optional, sources confirmed to CTV News.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## james4beach

Thanks @Money172375 , this is great, looks like ArriveCan will become optional. The announcement is expected near the end of the month.

Hopefully masks will remain mandatory on flights. We need to protect airline workers as well from all the filthy, infectious passengers.


----------



## kcowan

Masks are a thing of the past in Europe. Public transit and cabs require them by law but enforcement is slack. Lufthansa announced that they are no longer mandatory on planes.


----------



## Money172375

With ArriveCan ending, wondering how many people will use “arriveUSA” if it means shorter lines and wait times? 









‘We basically got to skip the entire line’: Toronto Pearson travellers can use this app when flying to the U.S.


Those travelling through Toronto Pearson International Airport to select U.S. destinations might be able to avoid long lines at customs by using this app.




toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## ian

We currently use Nexus. Will use anything that saves us time/lines at the airport.

I used ArriveCan once. Based on media reports I expected it to be a dog and to take time. So I started before our flight. To my surprise I found it quite easy. My only issue was that I did not realize I could do my own plus my spouses at the same time. It took me 10 minutes to do mine, and five minutes to do my spouses after I knew how to navigate.

I expect these entry requirements will be mandatory for many countries in the not too distant future. And I expect that many countries will follow the example of Australia and charge a fee.

We found it surprising that some countries do digital finger prints and photos on entry.


----------



## Money172375

Do people actually believe that ArriveCan stopped tourism in Canada? Maybe the vax requirement did a tiny bit, but the app itself?


----------



## ian

I believe that many people still believe in the relatively free flow of people between nations with the biggest inconvenience being lining up for passport control.

I think that this is becoming a thing of the pass because of security issues. More and more nations are instituting on line applications prior to entering their respective countries. Good from a security perspective, good from a processing perspective, and a good way for some such as Australia to impose a user pay fee to offset the cost of border security.

Do we like it? Not really, however when we travel we are consider ourselves guests in those countries. So...when we need a visa for Turkey, or for Thailand, Cambodia, Australia, etc we have to suck it up, fill out the form, and pay the entry fee. 

We have completed evisas for Australia twice. Both times it sped our entry. The first time no more than 15 minutes, the second time 5-10 minutes. Partly because we had the evisas, and perhaps partly because we are seniors, had carry on only, and were from Canada on an flight coming from Malaysia and Thailand respectively. Customs/immigration had bigger fish to fry.


----------



## Money172375

ian said:


> I believe that many people still believe in the relatively free flow of people between nations with the biggest inconvenience being lining up for passport control.
> 
> I think that this is becoming a thing of the pass because of security issues. More and more nations are instituting on line applications prior to entering their respective countries. Good from a security perspective, good from a processing perspective, and a good way for some such as Australia to impose a user pay fee to offset the cost of border security.
> 
> Do we like it? Not really, however when we travel we are consider ourselves guests in those countries. So...when we need a visa for Turkey, or for Thailand, Cambodia, Australia, etc we have to suck it up, fill out the form, and pay the entry fee.
> 
> We have completed evisas for Australia twice. Both times it speeded our entry. The first time no more than 15 minutes, the second time 5-10 minutes. Partly because we had the evisas, and perhaps partly because we are seniors, had carry on only, and were from Canada on an flight coming from Malaysia and Thailand respectively. Customs/immigration had bigger fish to fry.


But, but, but, but….aren’t you afraid of being tracked?!


----------



## ian

Anyone who wants to track us does not need our visa, our passport, etc.

You can easily track us by our credit cards. Or by digital photo recognition.

The option for someone who does not want to be tracked......stay home!


----------



## HappilyRetired

ian said:


> Anyone who wants to track us does not need our visa, our passport, etc.
> 
> You can easily track us by our credit cards. Or by digital photo recognition.
> 
> The option for someone who does not want to be tracked......stay home!


The govt used cell phone data to illegally track people during the pandemic. Some people actually think that's fine because they "never did anything wrong". Other people rightfully think that's a violation of personal rights.

Covid was just a test run for govt surveillance. They found out that most people will happily support it so expect more of it in the future. Most likely the next emergency that requires govt intervention into your personal freedom will be the climate.


----------



## ian

HappilyRetired said:


> The govt used cell phone data to illegally track people during the pandemic. Some people actually think that's fine because they "never did anything wrong". Other people rightfully think that's a violation of personal rights.
> 
> Covid was just a test run for govt surveillance. They found out that most people will happily support it so expect more of it in the future. Most likely the next emergency that requires govt intervention into your personal freedom will be the climate.


That is nothing compared to what they have been doing from a very large building in Ottawa for years. Operated by the security services to monitor foreign and domestic threats,etc. 

It has been going on for years and years, with the tacit approval of successive Conservative and Liberal Governments. US has the same but on a much larger scale. 


Despite the naysayers, the conspiracy theorists, etc I am not particularly concerned about my about my personal freedoms n Canada.

Just because the UK police services covering every inch of the Regent Street shopping area and road systems does not imply that personal freedom has been breached. What it does mean is that shoplifting and robberies have decreased substantially.


----------



## milhouse

Money172375 said:


> Do people actually believe that ArriveCan stopped tourism in Canada? Maybe the vax requirement did a tiny bit, but the app itself?


I'm not sure it "stopped tourism" to Canada significant way but I wouldn't rule it out completely. As an example, there are a lot of American and international cruisers posting questions about the app. However, a lot are related to the overall entry process and risk of quarantine from random tests. 



ian said:


> Despite the naysayers, the conspiracy theorists, etc I am not particularly concerned about my about my personal freedoms n Canada.


I generally don't care myself particularly in terms of a tradeoffs for easier access/processing for example. And I'm generally not concerned about anonymized data with the possible exception of risk of incompetence. 

But it is a slippery slope. For example, I can't recall the full details but a few years ago, police in the Vancouver lower mainland were planning to keep some kind of database to track interactions all interactions with the public, irregardless if you were a suspect of an investigation. The concern was that the police was collecting all this data with no oversight or retension policy. I don't want my info to be in a police database in perpituity if I'm randomly stopped even if I wasn't doing anything wrong for no benefit.


----------



## Gator13

Part of the problem with the government collecting personal data is that you know it will inadvertently end up in the hands of others.


----------



## ian

I am not even worried about those four microchips from my covid shots that those nutty conspiracy folks claim were put in the vaccine to control and to monitor me.


----------



## Money172375

Gator13 said:


> Part of the problem with the government collecting personal data is that you know it will inadvertently end up in the hands of others.


Doesn’t the passport have a chip that contains an electronic chip encoded with the bearer's name, gender, and date and place of birth and a digital portrait of their face? 

So they already have a lot of data? Is there additional risk to use arrivecan (minus all the vaccine/health data) to speed up border crossing, then deleting the app when you’re done?


----------



## Johnny199r

Went to Italy last month and enjoyed in. Thinking about Croatia/Slovenia next year. Anyone ever been?


----------



## Money172375

Johnny199r said:


> Went to Italy last month and enjoyed in. Thinking about Croatia/Slovenia next year. Anyone ever been?


Slovenia is beautiful. CHeck out lake bled and the Caves. And Portoroz beach.


----------



## Gator13

Money172375 said:


> Doesn’t the passport have a chip that contains an electronic chip encoded with the bearer's name, gender, and date and place of birth and a digital portrait of their face?
> 
> So they already have a lot of data? Is there additional risk to use arrivecan (minus all the vaccine/health data) to speed up border crossing, then deleting the app when you’re done?


I was referring to the fact that the government stores the data and typically gets hacked a couple times a year or an employee loses a laptop with data on it, etc.


----------



## londoncalling

Gator13 said:


> I was referring to the fact that the government stores the data and typically gets hacked a couple times a year or an employee loses a laptop with data on it, etc.


hacked, sold, given away. How many privacy breaches occur each year with hotels, stores, etc.? I am not being dismissive about the breaches. In fact, people's lackadaisical response to personal information being handed over to those who attempt to capitalize on it pisses me off greatly. It is part of the reason why the government has done nothing to curb it.


----------



## ian

Johnny199r said:


> Went to Italy last month and enjoyed in. Thinking about Croatia/Slovenia next year. Anyone ever been?


We have been to Croatia but just down the coast. It is on our bucket list to go back. Crossed to Split by ferry from Ancona, Italy. Went down the coast by Jardalhina (sp) ferry system. Stopped several times for a a few days each time. Ended up in Dubrovnik. Rented cars for day tiips when we stopped.. Went to Bosnia, Montenegro etc. Then back to Italy via ferry to Barri.

Very relaxing. Good people. We want to get to Istria, and then to Slovenia.


----------



## damian13ster

Been to Croatia multiple times. Slovenia just for 48h so likely not able to answer any questions there


----------



## Johnny199r

Any recommendations for Croatia?


----------



## ian

We stayed in Dubrovnik for several days. It is very similar to the Greek Island of Santorin in that it is a disaster when the cruise ships are in port. After 430/5PM it becomes a very different city. Spent a few days on Korcula. Enjoyed that very much.

We rented a car on two days when there were multiple cruise ships in town in order to avoid the crowds. Went south to Kotor the first day and east to Mosta, Bosnia on the second,.


----------



## damian13ster

Johnny199r said:


> Any recommendations for Croatia?


Loved Istria (coliseum in Pula), cliff jumping, very italian atmosphere, Old town in Zagreb, surrounding hills/mountains are great for hiking. Smaller cities along the coast are great, like Primosten. Didn't spend much time on islands - just been on Vis and saw blue cave.
Dubrovnik is gorgeous but absolutely flooded with people. Worth seeing, but I found Kotor to be much relaxing (cruise ships also stop there but during these times I just went hiking)
Check out Bosnia too if you have a chance. Pocitejl, Blagal Tekija, Mostar

Spelling of towns might be off as I am writing from memory


----------



## james4beach

Disaster. Masks no longer required on planes. The Deputy Chief Health Officer still recommends people wear masks on planes, though.

So now I have to get on a plane, mixing with passengers arriving from Asia and god knows where else, without masks. All summer I've been flying alongside people who've been coughing and sniffling on flights.

Now we'll be crammed shoulder to shoulder, no masks, with highly infectious people all around us. The government has really let down the public.

I was about to book a flight to California but this changes everything. I'm already cancelling travel plans due to this... risk of flying just went up. Imagine arriving at your destination and then coming down with Covid. Or imagine flying during peak cold/flu season, dozens of infectious people coughing into the metal tube you're trapped in.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Disaster. Masks no longer required on planes. The Deputy Chief Health Officer still recommends people wear masks on planes, though.
> 
> So now I have to get on a plane, mixing with passengers arriving from Asia and god knows where else, without masks. All summer I've been flying alongside people who've been coughing and sniffling on flights.
> 
> Now we'll be crammed shoulder to shoulder, no masks, with highly infectious people all around us. The government has really let down the public.
> 
> I was about to book a flight to California but this changes everything. I'm already cancelling travel plans due to this... risk of flying just went up. Imagine arriving at your destination and then coming down with Covid. Or imagine flying during peak cold/flu season, dozens of infectious people coughing into the metal tube you're trapped in.


If masks really work only you need to wear one. Or don't you believe in science? Also, if you really were scared you can always stop traveling or going to crowded restaurants. Just sayin'...


----------



## londoncalling

Anybody know if the airlines still offer lysol wipes when you board. We will bring our own anyways. More just curiousity. We have a family vacation planned for November and really don't need covid, a cold or flu to disrupt our plans. Will likely mask up but by then I am not sure how many others will have abandoned the practice. The probability of reduced transmission is better when others mask as well. I am a firm believer in letting each person decide what they need to do. We have decided that at current rates this is an acceptable level of risk. 

Perhaps my next comment is more appropriate for the Covid thread but I have seen a lot more handshaking taking place as of late. Not sure what my thoughts are on that. I have been the recipient of a few handshakes but am currently not offering any up.


----------



## Spudd

londoncalling said:


> Anybody know if the airlines still offer lysol wipes when you board. We will bring our own anyways. More just curiousity. We have a family vacation planned for November and really don't need covid, a cold or flu to disrupt our plans. Will likely mask up but by then I am not sure how many others will have abandoned the practice. The probability of reduced transmission is better when others mask as well. I am a firm believer in letting each person decide what they need to do. We have decided that at current rates this is an acceptable level of risk.


I flew to England in August and no wipes were offered (Air Transat).


----------



## Covariance

deleted.


----------



## ian

We had wipes on TAP going. Not on Transat coming home.


----------



## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> Anybody know if the airlines still offer lysol wipes when you board. We will bring our own anyways.


I didn't get any wipes the last time I flew. Thing is, some of these wipes the airlines handed out before had an antiseptic which I don't think is very effective on viruses. I forget the chemical now, but I remember looking it up, and asking a pharmacist, who said it's going to kill bacteria but probably not viruses. Lysol or Clorox wipes (either based on citric acid, or the n-Alkyl ammonium chloride formulations) will kill viruses -- best to buy your own and read the package. They clearly spell out the ones which kill cold & flu viruses.

The kinds which kill everything (including viruses) are pretty harsh on the hands.

My favourites were the individually wrapped ethyl alcohol wipes. London Drugs used to sell cheap packs of them, but I can't find them any more. Does anyone know where I can find individually wrapped hand-sized alcohol wipes?


----------



## Covariance

james4beach said:


> I didn't get any wipes the last time I flew. Thing is, some of these wipes the airlines handed out before had an antiseptic which I don't think is very effective on viruses. I forget the chemical now, but I remember looking it up, and asking a pharmacist, who said it's going to kill bacteria but probably not viruses. Lysol or Clorox wipes (either based on citric acid, or the n-Alkyl ammonium chloride formulations) will kill viruses -- best to buy your own and read the package. They clearly spell out the ones which kill cold & flu viruses.
> 
> The kinds which kill everything (including viruses) are pretty harsh on the hands.
> 
> My favourites were the individually wrapped ethyl alcohol wipes. London Drugs used to sell cheap packs of them, but I can't find them any more. Does anyone know where I can find individually wrapped hand-sized alcohol wipes?


A DIY solution that I've used on many an occasion is isopropyl alcohol soaked into a clean cloth and sealed in a zip lock bag. In a pinch 151proof rum also works.


----------



## londoncalling

james4beach said:


> My favourites were the individually wrapped ethyl alcohol wipes. London Drugs used to sell cheap packs of them, but I can't find them any more. Does anyone know where I can find individually wrapped hand-sized alcohol wipes?


I usually ask for extras at restaurants that provide them. rib joints and wing nights at pubs are great for that. Any general safety supply company should have them as they are commonly used to clean respirators. I also believe any hardware or automotive store like Princess auto has them. On occasion, I have seen them at dollar stores but would be suspect of the quality there.


----------



## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> I usually ask for extras at restaurants that provide them. rib joints and wing nights at pubs are great for that.


Thanks for the ideas, I should try Dollarama. It's amazing what they have. But I wanted to mention that the little moist towelettes that come with chicken wings and ribs are probably not antiseptic. They may have something soapy, but I'm pretty sure they don't have chemicals to kill viruses.



Covariance said:


> A DIY solution that I've used on many an occasion is isopropyl alcohol soaked into a clean cloth and sealed in a zip lock bag. In a pinch 151proof rum also works.


I've tried that too  But the pre-packaged ones are so compact and nice.

In the US, they can be found at Safeway near the shaving supplies. Really nice boxes of alcohol wipes, great for travel.


----------



## Beaver101

Try other dollar stores or home-hardware for the hand-sized "alcohol" wipes, if not the pharmacy to check. You may be surprised they carrry them as I got a pack (of 40s) last year that stated it had 70-75% (!) alcohol content on their wipes. Haven't had to resort to using them as still using / mixing my own alcohol with them non-alcholic wipes as well as using up my dozen bottles of hydrogen peroxide. The latter don't smell nor is it so harsh on the hands (though not recommended for metalic objects like door knobs!). Great for garbage cans, warding off the vermins and flies as well! Moreover your plants won't mind that liquid at all.

The pharmacy definitely should carry the "mini-alcoholic" wipes - great for getting sticky stuff like glue/tape off the table too.


----------



## Spudd

james4beach said:


> But the pre-packaged ones are so compact and nice.
> 
> In the US, they can be found at Safeway near the shaving supplies. Really nice boxes of alcohol wipes, great for travel.


Amazon has them: Alcohol Prep Pad by STEVENS | Sterile Wipes | Medium Size | 2-Ply Cotton 70% Isopropyl Individually Wrapped (200 Pads) : Amazon.ca: Health & Personal Care


----------



## james4beach

Spudd said:


> Amazon has them: Alcohol Prep Pad by STEVENS | Sterile Wipes | Medium Size | 2-Ply Cotton 70% Isopropyl Individually Wrapped (200 Pads) : Amazon.ca: Health & Personal Care


I think pharmacies carry those prep pads as well (meant for needle injections). These are very small squares. Certainly better than nothing, but you'll find these tiny squares are nothing like the hand-size towels that you get in pocket-sized Lysol wipes.


----------



## Spudd

james4beach said:


> I think pharmacies carry those prep pads as well (meant for needle injections). These are very small squares. Certainly better than nothing, but you'll find these tiny squares are nothing like the hand-size towels that you get in pocket-sized Lysol wipes.


Ah, good point. I didn't actually check the dimensions, just assumed that inside those pouches were the unfoldable chicken-wing style wipes. 

In that case I offer you these. Of course I always prefer to buy local but sometimes you just can't get what you want locally.


----------



## james4beach

Spudd said:


> In that case I offer you these. Of course I always prefer to buy local but sometimes you just can't get what you want locally.


Thanks for finding that, these look really nice. Yeah I'd buy locally too if I can but once a product has disappeared off the shelves, have to go online.


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## damian13ster

Apparently, according to F1 Grid, Montreal is prostitution capital of the world. By far most sexual harassments happening, 56% of women involved were molested or sexually assaulted during last race weekend









"Eldorado alfonsów" i "wyścig o seks". To miasto ma reputację raju do kupowania seksu


'Eldorado alfonsów', 'wyścig o seks' - to niektóre z określeń związane z weekendem Formuły 1 w Kanadzie, które nadały tamtejsze media. Okazuje się, że w czasie, gdy na torze rywalizują kierowcy, wykorzystywane są kobiety pracujące dla gości F1 - sponsorów wyścigu i prominentnych VIP-ów.




www.sport.pl





Can use translator. Had no idea that Montreal has such reputation


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> Montreal is prostitution capital of the world


There's a lot of organized crime in Montreal. Prostitution usually comes along with gang activity, drugs and human smuggling... so it makes sense there'd be a lot in Montreal.

Toronto, too.


----------



## james4beach

I'm thinking of taking a vacation in December. Does anyone know when kids get out of school, or when families usually start to take holiday trips?

I'm guessing December 17 could be the start of family vacation season. Or might it begin earlier than this?


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I'm thinking of taking a vacation in December. Does anyone know when kids get out of school, or when families usually start to take holiday trips?
> 
> I'm guessing December 17 could be the start of family vacation season. Or might it begin earlier than this?


In Ontario, school ends 23 this year. its late this year. I suspect most families will start vacay after…..possibly on Dec 26 so as to allow Xmas with the fam. School resumes on Jan 9


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> In Ontario, school ends 23 this year. its late this year. I suspect most families will start vacay after…..possibly on Dec 26 so as to allow Xmas with the fam. School resumes on Jan 9


Thanks. Wow, that's late. I'm going to try doing my vacation in early December to stay away from the crowds.


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## londoncalling

Same for most other provinces based on conversation I have had with family across the country. First 2 weeks should be free and clear. 3rd week may see increased volume from those that are ok with pulling kids out of school. We have taken vacation during the school year as the costs are considerably better. Still haven't seen any drop in travel prices despite recession fears.


----------



## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> Same for most other provinces based on conversation I have had with family across the country. First 2 weeks should be free and clear. 3rd week may see increased volume from those that are ok with pulling kids out of school.


Thanks!


----------



## ian

We would aim for mid December and the first week or two after New Years when people are back to work, school, etc.

edit: In the past we have scored some very good deals on cruises, AI's, flights and hotels during these two periods. Not certain why the week after New Years...perhaps people feel disinclined to travel if they are 'getting over' the holiday period. One year we scored a terrific fare on a Dec. 31 flight to Bangkok. Low price, and lots of room on all three flight legs.


----------



## ian

DW has been through Pearson twice. Once last week, once in Sept. Both times he had absolutely no issues. Flights were on time, or very close to on time. No issues going thru security. In fact, last Saturday she breezed through security in less than five minutes. Carry on only.

MIL the same on two other dates-two different flights. No issue whatsoever. MIL had checked bags.


----------



## james4beach

My parents recently went through Frankfurt Germany and they said it was total bedlam


----------



## Gator13

3 flights in Canada over the past 60 days. 3 departures were a breeze. 1 out of 3 arrivals were a breeze. All as good or better than pre-pandemic. The 2 arrivals that were bad were at Pearson with one being a complete **** show. Our luggage was off loaded in International and International was offloaded was offloaded at domestic. Wasn't busy either time, just piss poor Pearson execution as usual.


----------



## james4beach

If any of you are cold right now, the weather in Cuba is 22 to 30 C and I'm seeing some amazing prices on Sunwing packages between now and early Dec.

Check out the Sunwing web site, browse the Last Minute section and "lowest price calendar". Unfortunately I can't travel in a week, otherwise I would buy this myself right now.


----------



## Gator13

james4beach said:


> If any of you are cold right now, the weather in Cuba is 22 to 30 C and I'm seeing some amazing prices on Sunwing packages between now and early Dec.
> 
> Check out the Sunwing web site, browse the Last Minute section and "lowest price calendar". Unfortunately I can't travel in a week, otherwise I would buy this myself right now.


Cuba had a bad storm not long ago. Just a word of caution.


----------



## Money172375

Would make sure you’re somewhat flexible with flights. A family member planned a 4 day getaway down south. Multiple flight changes/cancellations now means it‘s a 10 day trip.


----------



## ian

Gator13 said:


> Cuba had a bad storm not long ago. Just a word of caution.


Redtag and aircanadavacations also have last minute specials. I believe Transat does as well. 

We have also used a UK tour company, TUI, to buy AI time in Mexico and AIs/hotels in Europe. 

Our 10 night AI stay in Mexico next month was purchased through TUI. Then we did our our air. Not a big fan of Sunwing.


----------



## james4beach

Gator13 said:


> Cuba had a bad storm not long ago. Just a word of caution.


Thanks for the heads up. I recently discovered this Tripadvisor forum, it's a nice place to check out what others have seen.

According to those posts, the hurricane is no longer impacting the resort areas. The main warning people are voicing is that food is limited (may be supply issues). Food is already not great in Cuban resorts, but you should expect that selection is even worse at the moment. Then again a friend of mine who went a few months ago enjoyed it, so I'm not too worried.

Beer is limited. So if you love beer and are going to eat a TON of food, you'll probably have more fun in Mexico or Punta Cana (DR).

I don't drink beer and I just love a good beach (see my user name) so I may still go to Cuba as the Varadero beach is one of the finest in the world. I spend hours just walking on the beach, and I can make do with crackers I bring from home if needed.


----------



## londoncalling

We have a trip booked to the US this week to depart using my companion flight and westjet miles. We will no longer be able to take that trip thanks to Covid. So far we are out about $180 US for non refundable event tickets. We will receive a full refund for hotel. Have no idea the economic impact from WJ. Not sure if it will be better to change the dates or cancel completely.


----------



## ian

londoncalling said:


> We have a trip booked to the US this week to depart on this week using my companion flight and westjet miles. We will no longer be able to take that trip thanks to Covid. So far we are out about $180 US for non refundable event tickets. We will receive a full refund for hotel. Have no idea the economic impact from WJ. Not sure if it will be better to change the dates or cancel completely.


Pre covid we had to cancel a trip to China. We were only exposed for $1500. I decided to check my credit card. One of the benefits was cancellation insurance. Submitted the requisite medical letter and had a refund three weeks later.


----------



## james4beach

I know people always complain about Air Canada, but I had to cancel two tickets in the pandemic so far, and in both cases they were very nice about "refunding" the full value of the ticket onto a travel voucher for future use. I don't know if that was AC just being nice, or if it's always possible to credit their tickets onto vouchers. Their voucher system is pretty nice, with a code and PIN that you can use multiple times until the balance is gone.

Be careful on the Air Canada web site. Many fares default to "Basic Economy" which is never refundable in any form. Choose Standard Economy or higher.

Today I booked a Sunwing vacation package and paid the extra $100 for their Cancellation Waiver which allows one to cancel up to the last minute (as I understand it), also would be a refund to a voucher.


----------



## londoncalling

How recent was that @james4beach? At the height of the pandemic I changed/cancelled a few of flights due to company policy with both WJ and AC and received full credit via vouchers as well. My current cancellation booked on WJ econoflex which does not charge "additional" fees for cancellations or changes. I did however lose a companion flight and the remainder went back into my travel bank. I will do a thorough audit to determine what the actual loss as I know I put some charges for taxes and fees on my CC which could not be purchased with WJ dollars.


----------



## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> How recent was that @james4beach?


My most recent cancellation was January 2022 and that was in the middle of the omicron wave. Things were still pretty crazy at that time.

Does anyone know if in normal times, like now, that Air Canada would still let you fully refund a standard economy ticket into a voucher?


----------



## james4beach

Russian tourists often go to Cuba, Mexico, the Dominican Republic, the Maldives, Canary Islands, and Turkey. The last time I went to the DR, before the war, my resort was full of Russians.

Has anyone heard of any incidents such as fights between western and Russian tourists? NATO and Russia are at war, and citizens on both sides hear round-the-clock propaganda in their respective countries. That propaganda stirs up emotions. Could this create friction even in tourist areas?


----------



## ian

james4beach said:


> Russian tourists often go to Cuba, Mexico, the Dominican Republic, the Maldives, Canary Islands, and Turkey. The last time I went to the DR, before the war, my resort was full of Russians.
> 
> Has anyone heard of any incidents such as fights between western and Russian tourists? NATO and Russia are at war, and citizens on both sides hear round-the-clock propaganda in their respective countries. That propaganda stirs up emotions. Could this create friction even in tourist areas?


We have not encountered many Russian tourists during our many trips to Mexico. Only been to DR once....a long time ago. Same with Cuba.

We have however encountered encountered many Russian tourists on our trips to Thailand, Vietnam, and Turkey. In Turkey along the southern Med coast in particular. The Russian mafia is firmly ensconced in Phuket, Thailand. Not at all well liked by the locals.


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> In Turkey along the southern Med coast in particular. The Russian mafia is firmly ensconced in Phuket, Thailand. Not at all well liked by the locals.


Friends who were recently there on the southern coast of Turkey told me that Russians are everywhere. Apparently they have also snatched up all the longer term rentals to be found. Basically they have fled Russia and are hiding out in Turkey with longer term residence, not just holidays.

I didn't know about the Russian mafia in Thailand! That's crazy.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> If any of you are cold right now, the weather in Cuba is 22 to 30 C and I'm seeing some amazing prices on Sunwing packages between now and early Dec.
> 
> Check out the Sunwing web site, browse the Last Minute section and "lowest price calendar". Unfortunately I can't travel in a week, otherwise I would buy this myself right now.


Why would you want to visit a communist country? Why not support countries that let their people be free instead?


----------



## ian

My spouse flew Westjet Toronto-Calgary on Oct. 22. I purchased the ticket (on line) on Oct. 18. I had three fare choices on that flight. Basic economy was $254. No refunds, no changes, checked bags or seat selection for a fee. The next one, forget what they called it, was $625. or so. That fare was refundable...probably to a Westjet travel bank. The third option was over $1000. I did not bother looking at it. We went with the basic economy $254. fare.

Seems to me last time I looked at AC it was the same. Domestic and international. It was the reason why we flew TAP to Portugal in May rather than AC. Premium economy fare on TAP, which included a refundable fare, etc. was considerably less that even the cost of basic economy on AC

Our experience over the past few years is that the fare option T's and C's can, and do, change from time to time. You need to pay attention and read carefully. There have been a few times when we have taken a screen shot of the booking option description just in case there was a future dispute.


----------



## Gothenburg83

ian said:


> We have not encountered many Russian tourists during our many trips to Mexico. Only been to DR once....a long time ago. Same with Cuba.
> 
> We have however encountered encountered many Russian tourists on our trips to Thailand, Vietnam, and Turkey. In Turkey along the southern Med coast in particular. The Russian mafia is firmly ensconced in Phuket, Thailand. Not at all well liked by the locals.


Just drive to Vermont and ski Jay Peak this coming winter to mingle with Russians. The resort is a very different place to what is was just a few short years ago.


----------



## ian

On our first snowbird trip to Thailand about ten years ago I was about to book a United/ANA fare. Decided to check the fare code and the t's and c's. No changes permitted.

I shopped a little more and found the same fare on Delta. The fare code had a change fee of $200. We booked.

As luck would have it we did have to change our return flight. The Delta agent was terrific. She had it done in five minutes. We were happy to pay the change fee and very thankful that we did not book the same fare with United. 

Since then, on all international fares, we always double check the fare details AND look up the respective fare codes.


----------



## Money172375

Still a lot of uncertainty with airlines and flights. I had family booked to fly from Toronto to Clearwater, Florida in March on Swoop…….peak season. Flight was cancelled outright. Only option is now to fly out of Hamilton.

seems weird given Toronto is a major hub and the demand should be very high for March Break.


----------



## londoncalling

That does seem odd. Any explanation given for the cancellation?


----------



## Money172375

londoncalling said:


> That does seem odd. Any explanation given for the cancellation?


No. Just a link to rebook through Hamilton.


----------



## ian

Went through Calgary airport security in two minutes flat three days ago. Did not even bother with nexus. 

It has been the same, or within 5 minutes the last three trips out. Seems to us the have noticeably more staff on duty.

Spouse has had the same experience the last two times at Pearson…mid afternoon and dinner time departures.

No idea about baggage…we both do carry on only.


----------



## TomB16

Money172375 said:


> Still a lot of uncertainty with airlines and flights. I had family booked to fly from Toronto to Clearwater, Florida in March on Swoop…….peak season. Flight was cancelled outright. Only option is now to fly out of Hamilton.


We live in the age of cancelled flights. The sheer volume of cancelled flights is astonishing.

Keep this in mind if you purchase upgrades, like direct flights, premium economy, business class, insurance, etc. From what I can tell, none of these automatically transfer with the flight changes. They are simply dropped.

My wife spent countless hours on the phone, trying to get our upgrades back. I would guess 12 hours? One premium economy upgrade had her calling back weekly for 5 weeks. She eventually got the feature back but there is a 45+m wait time for every call.

A couple of months ago, we had a WestJet flight which we paid extra to get a direct flight. The flight was cancelled, we reverted to the indirect flight, and there was no refund. I might have been able to fight it with either the CC company or small claims but you can only fight against so much garbage in this world.


----------



## Money172375

TomB16 said:


> We live in the age of cancelled flights. The sheer volume of cancelled flights is astonishing.
> 
> Keep this in mind if you purchase upgrades, like direct flights, premium economy, business class, insurance, etc. From what I can tell, none of these automatically transfer with the flight changes. They are simply dropped.
> 
> My wife spent countless hours on the phone, trying to get our upgrades back. I would guess 12 hours? One premium economy upgrade had her calling back weekly for 5 weeks. She eventually got the feature back but there is a 45+m wait time for every call.
> 
> A couple of months ago, we had a WestJet flight which we paid extra to get a direct flight. The flight was cancelled, we reverted to the indirect flight, and there was no refund. I might have been able to fight it with either the CC company or small claims but you can only fight against so much garbage in this world.


Try the FCAC of Airlines.



https://rppa-appr.ca/eng/air-travel-complaints







File A Complaint


Planning a vacation or business trip? Protect your travel investment with TICO - purchase travel services only from Ontario-registered travel agencies.




www.tico.ca


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> Went through Calgary airport security in two minutes flat three days ago. Did not even bother with nexus.


Went through Vancouver airport yesterday. Just lucky timing maybe, but absolutely no crowds, no security lineups.

Just walked through the whole thing (NEXUS line using my expired card). They told me to leave the laptop and liquids inside my bags, removed nothing. They said it's a new trial program.


----------



## Mukhang pera

james4beach said:


> Went through Vancouver airport yesterday. Just lucky timing maybe, but absolutely no crowds, no security lineups.
> 
> Just walked through the whole thing (NEXUS line using my expired card). They told me to leave the laptop and liquids inside my bags, removed nothing. They said it's a new trial program.


The whole security thing has made air travel a lot less pleasant. I am old enough to remember the days when when you went to the airport, bought your ticket, or handed it over, and got on the plane carrying whatever you liked. No inspections, no one asked what you were carrying, nothing. So quick and easy.

I flew out of Taipei to Manila awhile back. Getting through security took forever. People had to take off anything with the slightest bit of metal. Any belts, watches, rings. What a pain.

Leaving Manila for Dubai was not much better. Each step was tedious. Security not quite as crazy, but it took over an hour just to get through immigration to get exit stamp. A few hours for the whole process. I thought arriving in Manila from the southern Philippines 5 hours ahead of the flight to Dubai would leave us sitting around for quite awhile. Nope. Used it all up. 

Like j4b, one airport encountered recently did not require laptops, etc. removed. That was some improvement there. Can't not recall which airport. May have been Iloilo, Philippines.


----------



## Zipper

Many years ago (1978) My family and I were on an exchange to Australia for a year. When we flew back from Sydney there was a 200lb limit per passenger for baggage. There were 4 of us and we had a lot of stuff to bring back so we bought some extra bags. We had 800lbs for the return trip!


----------



## james4beach

Mukhang pera said:


> The whole security thing has made air travel a lot less pleasant. I am old enough to remember the days when when you went to the airport, bought your ticket, or handed it over, and got on the plane carrying whatever you liked. No inspections, no one asked what you were carrying, nothing. So quick and easy.


This is definitely an area where we have lost our freedoms over the years. It all came in around 9/11 and the public was willing to accept the new measures due to fear of those nasty terrorists.

(Let's remember by the way that nearly all the terrorists were from Saudi Arabia, and funded by wealthy families linked to the Saudi government, and yet we never went to war with SA. We continue to be close buddies with them and even provide weapons to their dictatorship.)

This is a big reason I'm not a fan of things like ArriveCan and new measures regarding checking vaccinations. Just like 9/11, once these measures are in place, they may stick around forever. It becomes a norm and just an additional hassle in travel.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> This is definitely an area where we have lost our freedoms over the years. It all came in around 9/11 and the public was willing to accept the new measures due to fear of those nasty terrorists.
> 
> (Let's remember by the way that nearly all the terrorists were from Saudi Arabia, and funded by wealthy families linked to the Saudi government, and yet we never went to war with SA. We continue to be close buddies with them and even provide weapons to their dictatorship.)
> 
> This is a big reason I'm not a fan of things like ArriveCan and new measures regarding checking vaccinations. Just like 9/11, once these measures are in place, they may stick around forever. It becomes a norm and just an additional hassle in travel.


It won't end with ArrivCan. Trudeau wants to implement a digital health passport, which will eventually expand and be used for other "emergencies" that the government decide need to be addressed.


----------



## ian

This past June we were delayed 7 hours on a Transat flight from Faro, Portugal to Toronto.

Put in a claim to Transat on June 24 for 600euro compensation each based on EU rules.

We received one check each on August 16 or 17. 

Two emails. One to acknowledge receipt of the claim. Another to advise that the claim was approved and the cheque was being cut/mailed.

Those EU rules also apply to flights from Canada on any EU based airline. Do not think we will be flying to Europe on AC or Westjet next year.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Returned yesterday to Philippines from UAE. The usual fun with multiple security screenings, having to show proof of vaccination multiple times, all such a joy.

A complicating matter, of sorts, was that I got a cold not long before departing UAE. First one in more than 4 years. Only really bothered me in about the last day there and then coming home. I was worried I'd get quarantined, or worse. All these airport temperature scanners as well as signs telling you to surrender yourself to authorities if you are "feeling unwell", have a cough or fever, etc.. Who would volunteer for that? At each check-in counter and checkpoint I did my best not to cough, blow my nose, etc. I was afraid I'd get busted and placed in solitary confinement, all on my dime. Or maybe euthanized and swiftly cremated, out of a show of proper precaution (but still of my dime...or that of my estate). Anyway, made it through.

Perhaps some here will say I was a hazard to public health. I should have stepped forward at every opportunity. Maybe I carry the new virulent and deadly C-19 variant - the CMF Variant. Very selfish of me to hide my sniffles behind my mandatory mask, showing contumelious disregard for the rights of my fellow passengers. Should be in the news soon. How a planeload on innocents who flew into Manila on an Emirates flight are all now in ICU because some unknown bounder snuck on board, hiding in the weeds, maintaining stoney silence about the peril about to be unleashed.


----------



## james4beach

Mukhang pera said:


> A complicating matter, of sorts, was that I got a cold not long before departing UAE. First one in more than 4 years. Only really bothered me in about the last day there and then coming home. I was worried I'd get quarantined, or worse. All these airport temperature scanners as well as signs telling you to surrender yourself to authorities if you are "feeling unwell", have a cough or fever, etc.. Who would volunteer for that? At each check-in counter and checkpoint I did my best not to cough, blow my nose, etc. I was afraid I'd get busted and placed in solitary confinement, all on my dime. Or maybe euthanized and swiftly cremated, out of a show of proper precaution (but still of my dime...or that of my estate). Anyway, made it through.


I would have similar fears in many countries.

If you're wearing a mask, you're doing a lot more to protect the public than people in Canada. Here when people get on planes, they don't wear masks and just cough and sneeze for everyone else to enjoy.

I had a flight yesterday, and the husband and wife sitting beside me were both clearly sick. I wouldn't have minded so much if they wore masks, but instead they were maskless. The woman was coughing and both were wiping their noses with their bare fingers.

That's how it's done in Canada.

Colds in the winter are inevitable, and I don't mind if people have symptoms. But they really should wear masks so that they aren't expelling their secretions all over everyone.


----------



## ian

Came thru customs in Calgary today at 1700. 

We were the only ones using Nexus. Breezed through in five minutes. The regular line looked to be moving very quickly.

It was the same flying to Mexico 11 days ago. No lineups....we breezed through security.


----------



## james4beach

I just got back from Varadero Cuba, with a Sunwing all-inclusive package. This was a really cheap package, the exact same price I last paid in 2020. The beach and weather was fantastic, every day was 23 to 30 C, sunny, perfect conditions at the beach and sea.

The quality of the beach and water in Varadero is just incredible.

Tourists are mainly Canadians and Russians, with a few Europeans and Latinos too.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I just got back from Varadero Cuba, with a Sunwing all-inclusive package. This was a really cheap package, the exact same price I last paid in 2020. The beach and weather was fantastic, every day was 23 to 30 C, sunny, perfect conditions at the beach and sea.
> 
> The quality of the beach and water in Varadero is just incredible.
> 
> Tourists are mainly Canadians and Russians, with a few Europeans and Latinos too.


Never been to Cuba. I heard the beaches are some of the best in that area of the world…..but the food can be less than desirable. How did you find the food?

so far, the DR is our favourite carribean value getaway.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Never been to Cuba. I heard the beaches are some of the best in that area of the world…..but the food can be less than desirable. How did you find the food?
> 
> so far, the DR is our favourite carribean value getaway.


I think the DR is great too, and the food is better. There are pluses and minuses for both. Here I am comparing Punta Cana (DR) to Varadero (CU) but can't speak to the other spots on those islands. The reason I chose CU over DR was because I care more about safety, and the beach quality.

*Food*

No question that the food is better in DR. Many people in online reviews complain about the food in Cuba, and I met some people at my resort who complained a lot as well. At the same time other people (like me) have no complaints. I liked the food in Cuba, and I ate too much.

I have been thinking a lot about this and trying to figure out why some people think the food is good, but others hate it. I think that if a person does not like rice or fish, they may have a tough time in Cuba. There's a lot of rice, there's beans, some vegetables, and assorted meats. For example my resort had a daily lunch BBQ which usually had grilled fish. I thought this was amazing -- really delicious -- but it's not for everyone.

And when I say grilled fish, I mean that you had to know how to pick apart the fish, had to know which parts were edible (and not). If all of this sounds too crazy for you, then don't go to Cuba.

Reading some of the reviews, you'd think the resorts had no food. That's so ridiculous. Mine had a huge breakfast each morning, with eggs, bread, sausage etc. The lunch was a daily BBQ with some combination of chicken, pork, fish. The dinner buffet was huge and had a pretty wide selection of things. It was perfectly enjoyable, though I would agree it wasn't as amazing as some DR buffets I had years ago.

If you want pasta, pizza or fried food, don't go to Cuba. You're probably not going to find those things. Additionally if you have dietary constraints maybe avoid Cuba. To enjoy the food in Cuba you probably have to be the kind of person who eats anything, and likes rice.


*Safety*

The DR has more crime and seems to be particularly dangerous for women. Cuba is very safe and I even saw women travelling alone. There really is no crime concern, unlike DR.


*Beach and Ocean*

My experience has been that Varadero is superior, from the perspective of someone who likes to hang out on the beach and go swimming. The quality and cleanliness of the sand is just amazing. I found the water in Punta Cana has limited swimming space, is roped off, crowded, and there's a lot of boat activity. In comparison Varadero's beach does not seem as crowded to me. The sea is shallow and there's lots of space to swim. There are still boats but they are fewer and there's more space in general.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Thank you j4b for a most illuminating and enlightening report. 

Were I not happily ensconced in the Philippines at the moment, I might be heading off to Cuba. Long experience here has enabled me to manage quite well with rice and fish. In places like Belize, one gets served a lot of fish. As well as rice and beans mixed. Not what I would make at home, but quite okay. When in Rome....


----------



## cainvest

I'd say james4beach's Varadero experience pretty much mirrored my trip there. Stayed at a 5 star, All-in resort with a great beach, very clean and not too busy. We even had some coral there which is great for snorkeling as the fish that hang around will swim with you. I found the food good, mostly buffet style and we did have some pasta choices. Never once did any of us feel unsafe, even when we went on side trips like Havana or walked into town.

On a side note, some friends went to a more eastern resort area (forget the name but a common tourist place) two years ago and they felt the resort wasn't very good, especially the beaches.


----------



## james4beach

If any of you are going down to either Cuba or the Dominican Republic, take some bug spray and watch out for these mosquitoes (or possibly sand fleas) which only seem to get the legs, below the knee.









Leg Bites (Sand fleas??) as bad in Cuba as in DR? - Varadero Forum - Tripadvisor


Answer 1 of 39: Just wondering if the problem of little bites on the legs (whether from sand fleas or whatever they are since I never ever saw a bug on me) is as bad in Cuba (Varadero) as it was in Punta Cana? I got bit but hubby didn't.. guess I'm sweeter...




www.tripadvisor.ca


----------



## Gothenburg83

james4beach said:


> If any of you are going down to either Cuba or the Dominican Republic, take some bug spray and watch out for these mosquitoes (or possibly sand fleas) which only seem to get the legs, below the knee.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leg Bites (Sand fleas??) as bad in Cuba as in DR? - Varadero Forum - Tripadvisor
> 
> 
> Answer 1 of 39: Just wondering if the problem of little bites on the legs (whether from sand fleas or whatever they are since I never ever saw a bug on me) is as bad in Cuba (Varadero) as it was in Punta Cana? I got bit but hubby didn't.. guess I'm sweeter...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tripadvisor.ca


Thnaks, my good lady is thinking of taking a trip to Cuba with her sister and Sand fleas really seem to go for her or she reacts more to them than I do. West Bay Roatan sand fleas were particularly bad but we are still considering going back - for the diving.


----------



## james4beach

Gothenburg83 said:


> Thnaks, my good lady is thinking of taking a trip to Cuba with her sister and Sand fleas really seem to go for her or she reacts more to them than I do. West Bay Roatan sand fleas were particularly bad but we are still considering going back - for the diving.


Personally I think the ones in Cuba were fleas and not mosquitoes. I say this because it's a dry season and there wasn't any rain while I was there. Also I usually don't react (at all) to mosquitoes, but I definitely reacted to these bites.

They "got me". I wish I knew _where_ they got me but here's my best guess in case it helps: I spent a lot of time walking on the sand (many hours), bare foot on sand. Next time I guess I'll wear sandals while walking, and also use insect repellent while on the sand.

It wouldn't stop me from returning by the way. There are sand fleas in the Dominican Republic too.

If anyone knows more about the sand fleas, I'd love to know. For example do they hang out in dry parts of sandy beaches, or are they only in the moist parts touched by the tides? Is wearing sandals enough to stop them from jumping up onto you?


----------



## ian

We are shopping for air to SE Asia for Feb/March. Prices are up considerably from prior years.

Many people who do not travel out of Canada ,US, or Europe do not realize that going to many countries involves having your fingerprint captured digitally when passing through immigration. And in some countries, a digital photo to go with it! When we to Australia we have to fill out an entry form prior to departure, pay the fee, and obtain a digital visa. Need it to get on the plane.


----------



## Freedom2022

Hi james4beach and cainvest,

We plan to go to Cuba.
Any hotel or resort you recommend at Varadero?
Thanks in advance.


----------



## jlunfirst

I'm not really a hot/warm tropical place dreamer in the middle of winter. Only once in my life, we ended up going to Maui in early Jan. It was ok..highlight was the whales breaching on south end of island. We hit it right in terms of our visit. I just found it humid hot after arriving there which to me, wasn't a great feeling. And then readjusting on return.

I don't have the motivation to visit tropical beach resort areas. When we were on our lst fantastic trip for 4 wks. on Big Hawai'i and Kauai islands, whenever I saw a palm tree by the beach, I headed there. I love Hawai'i for what it offers. 

You need to realize: I bike alot in spring to late fall annually. I get alot sun. So I don't need any more. And I don't know how to swim.


----------



## cainvest

Freedom2022 said:


> Hi james4beach and cainvest,
> 
> We plan to go to Cuba.
> Any hotel or resort you recommend at Varadero?
> Thanks in advance.


Haven't been there in a number of years, best to check recent online reviews for 5 star resorts.


----------



## james4beach

Freedom2022 said:


> Hi james4beach and cainvest,
> 
> We plan to go to Cuba.
> Any hotel or resort you recommend at Varadero?


Different resorts have pluses and minuses, and I strongly recommend reading the TripAdvisor reviews of the ones you're considering.

I mostly look at which ones have the best sale prices and then read all the TripAdvisor reviews and see which sounds most appealing. When you read those TA reviews, pay more attention to the reviewers who have written many reviews before (this is shown by their user name). There is an "art" to interpreting TA reviews. Always look for current and fresh reviews. Also, look at the bar graph under "Traveller rating" which shows how many people ranked it Excellent, Very Good, Average, etc. The best hotels are the ones which show a profile of nearly all Excellent/VG, with a steady drop-off towards lower ratings. The two resorts I link to below show this kind of profile.

It could be problematic to try finding a _specific_ resort because due to current availability, prices can vary a lot. I always search based on prices and deals. But in case it helps, here are the last two resorts that I stayed at, and I thought they were both quite good.

I prefer low prices, so these are not the best resorts out there. But I think they're good value and quite nice generally. The forum software is doing something weird to my links so I just pasted the URLs



Code:


Starfish Varadero
https://www.tripadvisor.ca/Hotel_Review-g147275-d275185-Reviews-Starfish_Varadero-Varadero_Matanzas_Province_Cuba.html

Sirenis Tropical Varadero
https://www.tripadvisor.ca/Hotel_Review-g147275-d1646887-Reviews-Sirenis_Tropical_Varadero-Varadero_Matanzas_Province_Cuba.html

If you book a different one, I'd compare it to these reviews and make sure you're getting something that's rated at least as well.


----------



## james4beach

@Freedom2022 an additional note about the above. The room types can vary a lot between these resorts but you will also have to look at what the tour operator gives you access to. Some of these resorts have better rooms like "ocean view" but they may not be available.

For example while I enjoyed the Starfish, the standard rooms have absolutely no view. In fact it looked towards another building, not very nice.

OTOH the Sirenis has some ocean view rooms which are spectacular (balconies with views). You might say, why didn't I just book that? There weren't any available for the range of dates I was looking at.


----------



## jlunfirst

I'm not convinced I want to have only a resort all inclusive vacation...probably towards end of life...... when I get too afraid.  

I probably will get picky about group tours overseas...maybe for 1/2 day and rest be independent.


----------



## Gothenburg83

jlunfirst said:


> I'm not really a hot/warm tropical place dreamer in the middle of winter. Only once in my life, we ended up going to Maui in early Jan. It was ok..highlight was the whales breaching on south end of island. We hit it right in terms of our visit. I just found it humid hot after arriving there which to me, wasn't a great feeling. And then readjusting on return.
> 
> I don't have the motivation to visit tropical beach resort areas. When we were on our lst fantastic trip for 4 wks. on Big Hawai'i and Kauai islands, whenever I saw a palm tree by the beach, I headed there. I love Hawai'i for what it offers.
> 
> You need to realize: I bike alot in spring to late fall annually. I get alot sun. So I don't need any more. And I don't know how to swim.


I am not drawn to all inclusive resorts for the beach or the sun in the Caribbean. I am way to pale skinned. I am drawn for only one reason and that is scuba diving. When I do a morning two dive trip I am ravenous and I need food ASAP same if I do an afternoon or night dive(s). 
I do enjoy the beach atmosphere if it's about doing nothing more than reading and swimming and poolside lounging around but I don't enjoy the cringy evening entertainment cabaret stuff. I go to my room to read or sleep. I'm usually ready for bed by 9 anyway and I set an alarm and get up at 06:00 to get in a morning swim/ hit the gym , have breakfast and get on the dive boat.


----------



## ian

jlunfirst said:


> I'm not convinced I want to have only a resort all inclusive vacation...probably towards end of life...... when I get too afraid.
> 
> I probably will get picky about group tours overseas...maybe for 1/2 day and rest be independent.


We are in our early 70's. Just about all of our travel is independent. We sometimes include cruises or AI's in our extended trip. Last 7 week independent trip we did in Mexico included two last minute 5 day AI stays. One in Playa, the other in PV.

We are very open to all sorts for travel options, some last minute. If you have been doing independent travel for five or six weeks it is sometimes very relaxing to book a last minute cruise or AI for a 7-10 days where you just have to show up so to speak. Then move on to the next destination after resting up.

We have also done a few last minute AI's from Canada. Typically in early December. Book on Tuesday or Wednesday, fly out three days later.


----------



## Spudd

Gothenburg83 said:


> I am not drawn to all inclusive resorts for the beach or the sun in the Caribbean. I am way to pale skinned. I am drawn for only one reason and that is scuba diving. When I do a morning two dive trip I am ravenous and I need food ASAP same if I do an afternoon or night dive(s).
> I do enjoy the beach atmosphere if it's about doing nothing more than reading and swimming and poolside lounging around but I don't enjoy the cringy evening entertainment cabaret stuff. I go to my room to read or sleep. I'm usually ready for bed by 9 anyway and I set an alarm and get up at 06:00 to get in a morning swim/ hit the gym , have breakfast and get on the dive boat.


Have you been to any resorts that you'd recommend that had diving on-site (or very nearby)? I'm looking for a getaway for my scuba-loving husband's birthday.


----------



## Gothenburg83

Spudd said:


> Have you been to any resorts that you'd recommend that had diving on-site (or very nearby)? I'm looking for a getaway for my scuba-loving husband's birthday.


On Curacao we stayed at sunscapes resort and we did morning boat dives and an afternoon dive from the boat dock, All were were good and we were diving in shoals of fish and spotted a seashore just a few feet from the dock ( my first and only seahorse "find") 
Bonaire, DV flamingo , bonaire is nearly all shore diving rent a pick up and off you go, you have 24hr access to dive from the dock if you are mad😎 I
n Roatan we did boat dive in the morning and a afternoon wall dive from the dock at Media Luna.


----------



## Gothenburg83

Spudd said:


> Have you been to any resorts that you'd recommend that had diving on-site (or very nearby)? I'm looking for a getaway for my scuba-loving husband's birthday.


I neglected to mention the truely best diving experiences I have had is on a liveaboard, bootcamp diving 5 dives a day for 5 days is fun but exhausting. We really enjoyed the exumas bahamas. The food was great , loved drinking and mixing with the crew and only 20 guests. I managed to stay up to 10pm once!


----------



## londoncalling

After rescheduling our Covid cancelled trip in November we showed up at the airport to be told that our flight out to AZ had been cancelled along with many other departures. As expected the line up at the service desk was very long so we took the only cab sitting outside home. With so many cancelled flights it is unlikely to find another flight anywhere out of where we live. Currently looking into options out of YYC. Unfortunately, flight changes cannot be done online and I will get a callback tomorrow. That should provide ample time to look at options, find few choices for ridiculously high prices due to the time of year, and look to head out another time. Total cost of my vacation to the airport 1 night's hotel and a return trip to the airport via uber/taxi. I understand that the cancellation was weather related and beyond the airlines control. What doesn't sit well with me is that I did not receive a notification from the airline via their app, email or text. 

Pre-pandemic there would have been inbound flights to our small airport and an opportunity to get out later that day or the next. Not anymore. Demand is still high but airlines have cut routes and travelers have less options. 

Next time I am going with @TomB16 via AC. Seems like he has better luck.  

Perhaps our 3rd attempt to go somewhere will finally yield results. If it wasn't - 43C with the windchill I would consider dragging my grumpy a$$ to work. 😡


----------



## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> Perhaps our 3rd attempt to go somewhere will finally yield results. If it wasn't - 43C with the windchill I would consider dragging my grumpy a$$ to work. 😡


I'm very sorry to hear that. It's terribly bad luck.

Here in BC, the bad weather shut down Vancouver airport today. One of my friends was supposed to be on his way somewhere warm today, and his flights were cancelled too.


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## londoncalling

Thanks @james4beach. We were told that later flights were not available because of the cancellations coming out of YVR. meant less inbound flights into AB and SK. YYC tried to pick up some of the routes but without enough planes coming into YYC from YVR it didn't do much to help the situation. I didn't feel like spending hours at the ticket counter to find out it would be a couple of days before we can head out. I have resigned myself to the fact that I won't be heading anywhere in the next couple weeks. Next will be trying to get compensation from the airline which will likely be very little as it was "due to weather". Still annoyed with myself for not checking before heading out this morning as well as the airline for not providing any notification. Even if I was to find another flight or destination the costs have gone up since booking in November. All in all, there are much greater problems in the world than my interrupted vacation and the boredom as a result. We are safe at home and will get to see some family over the holidays and stranded travellers. I imagine there are aircrew that are stuck waiting to finish their routes and get home. Once I hear from the airline I may try to book something for February or Easter. Possibly overseas. Not the cheapest times to fly but am trying to follow the school calendar to minimize the kids time away from school.


----------



## Covariance

sorry to hear @londoncalling Good luck in the rebook, compensation. Any insurance available from your credit card or other coverage?


----------



## londoncalling

Thanks @Covariance . I reviewed the new legislation New refund regulations now in force | Canadian Transportation Agency (otc-cta.gc.ca) and we should get a refund for the flight costs and nothing else from the airline. My concern is that the companion flight required travel before the end of the year and that may be lost. We do have coverage through our credit card and should be able to get the lost hotel cost reimbursed. All in all likely out nothing more than our time. It is an inconvenience to have to navigate the process but that is typical with insurance. Hopefully, anyone else travelling over the next while has better luck in reaching their destination. The flipside of this is that we will get to see some family that we would not have seen otherwise.


----------



## Money172375

londoncalling said:


> Thanks @Covariance . I reviewed the new legislation New refund regulations now in force | Canadian Transportation Agency (otc-cta.gc.ca) and we should get a refund for the flight costs and nothing else from the airline. My concern is that the companion flight required travel before the end of the year and that may be lost. We do have coverage through our credit card and should be able to get the lost hotel cost reimbursed. All in all likely out nothing more than our time. It is an inconvenience to have to navigate the process but that is typical with insurance. Hopefully, anyone else travelling over the next while has better luck in reaching their destination. The flipside of this is that we will get to see some family that we would not have seen otherwise.


A credit card chargeback request might also be an option. That’s how I got my money back in full (no credits, vouchers), much faster than others during the initial COVID outbreak of 2020.


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## londoncalling

Update: I received my scheduled callback from WJ this afternoon and after waiting on hold they offered to reschedule my flight for December 25th. I opted to take the cancellation and had the appropriate WJ dollar and Credit Card amounts refunded. I was told by the agent that they would not be able to extend my companion flight as it would have expired. After receiving my confirmation email I received the standard is there anything else I can help you with. I took that as my window to be escalated to the next tier of customer service.

Upon talking to the customer service supervisor I expressed my disappointment in WJ trajectory in policy and dwindling options for travel. I do not have any issue with the courteous nature of the staff themselves. No need to shoot the messenger here. However, I asked why it took almost 24 hours to receive a cancellation notice when I had signed up for updates on my status. This failure to provide a notification resulted in me having to pay for transportation to and from the airport . The agent apologized mentioned backlogs and staffing etc. and offered up 300 WJ dollars. I likely could have pressed further (500) as the cost of the companion flight would be more. I wanted to end things on a positive note for everyone so I didn't bother. I still have a few companion flights to use up by early January. I don't plan on booking during this crazy time but will do my research The new plan is to book the cheapest reasonable fare across the Atlantic and then use one of their airlines to go somewhere in the EU. 

I still think customer compensation provided by airlines in NA is garbage but we do not have the same volume (in Canada) and proximity as European carriers. Best of luck to those trying to travel during this busy season.


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## Money172375

The weather forecast in Toronto over the next few days looks grim, calling it the storm of a generation.

Godspeed to those who are planning to fly out of Toronto before Xmas.


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## londoncalling

Am glad I didn't take WJ offer to rebook us to fly out on Dec 25th. Looks like travel across NA will be very frustrating over the next couple days. I am most sympathetic to those that are stranded en route, followed by those that were attempting to connect with loved ones over the holidays. On a slightly different note this current experience will only fuel future travel demand in 2023 that has been restricted the past few years.


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## Birder

Spending the winter down in Cocoa Beach this year. Near freezing temps yesterday and today. The furnace in the condo is pretty weak. The annual Surfing Santas event was decidedly smaller than prior years due to the chill. Big surprise down here - they hand out single use plastic bags at the grocery store for free! 

Merry Christmas to all my fellow CMF'ers!


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## ian

Our son departed through Pearson yesterday afternoon. No issues whatsoever. No line in security. Westjet flight was held up for an inbound Halifax connection.

Not impressed with either WJ or AC customer service in the past. What customer service?

One thing we learned from no issue flight delay compensation claim from Transat on an inbound Europe flight is that when we next go to Europe we will try to book on an EU based airline. Then any comp will be based on the EU rules despite a Canada origin for the flight. 

Transat paid us 600Euro each for a 7 hour delay claim on a Faro-Toronto flight with no questions asked.


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## jargey3000

ian said:


> Our son departed through Pearson yesterday afternoon. No issues whatsoever. No line in security. Westjet flight was held up for an inbound Halifax connection.
> 
> Not impressed with either WJ or AC customer service in the past. What customer service?
> 
> One thing we learned from no issue flight delay compensation claim from Transat on an inbound Europe flight is that when we next go to Europe we will try to book on an EU based airline. Then any comp will be based on the EU rules despite a Canada origin for the flight.
> 
> Transat paid us 600Euro each for a 7 hour delay claim on a Faro-Toronto flight with no questions asked.


I thought I saw that WJ cancelled ALL flights in & out of YYZ yesterday??? ( or was that Friday?....hard to keep up...)


----------



## ian

jargey3000 said:


> I thought I saw that WJ cancelled ALL flights in & out of YYZ yesterday??? ( or was that Friday?....hard to keep up...)


Friday flights were cancelled.

WJ operated flights on Saturday. They were surprised that there were some unoccupied seats on the flight.


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## londoncalling

@ian do you know how many unoccupied seats? If the time needed was similar to my cancellation last week the airlines were unable to coordinate anything for a couple days. My flights were cancelled early am on the 20th. It took 36 hours to get an update that I could reschedule for the 25th. That's 5 days. We could have taken that flight but rebooking our accommodations would have been over $100 US a night and our cancelled car rental had gone up as well. I don't think the airlines are in the same position to accommodate cancellations as they were previously. Same number of passengers but less staff, less flights and more cancellations. 











Here is an interesting link showing customer satisfaction. Air Transat seems to do a great job in this department.

Air travel complaints per 100 flights – by airline | Canadian Transportation Agency (otc-cta.gc.ca)










Added: Screened passenger data | CATSA | ACSTA (catsa-acsta.gc.ca)


----------



## jlunfirst

londoncalling said:


> @ian do you know how many unoccupied seats? If the time needed was similar to my cancellation last week the airlines were unable to coordinate anything for a couple days. My flights were cancelled early am on the 20th. It took 36 hours to get an update that I could reschedule for the 25th. That's 5 days. We could have taken that flight but rebooking our accommodations would have been over $100 US a night and our cancelled car rental had gone up as well. I don't think the airlines are in the same position to accommodate cancellations as they were previously. More staff, more flights daily and more routes.
> 
> View attachment 24027
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am trying to find data for this year and will post it when I do. In the meantime here is an interesting link showing customer satisfaction. Air Transat seems to do a great job in this department.
> 
> Air travel complaints per 100 flights – by airline | Canadian Transportation Agency (otc-cta.gc.ca)
> 
> View attachment 24028


I wouldn't even rebook until 2 wks. later or at least past New Year's. I'm sorry things are messed up for you.


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## londoncalling

I will be booking before the end of the year. I have a companion flight that will expire and my platinum status will drop to gold in 2023. It may mean several hours on hold waiting to talk to an agent but costs for me in the New Year will go up considerably.


----------



## ian

jlunfirst said:


> I wouldn't even rebook until 2 wks. later or at least past New Year's. I'm sorry things are messed up for you.


No idea. They were on a 4PM 24/12 YYZ-YYC flight. Delayed 45 minutes waiting for inbound Halifax connections. All they said was flight had empty seats including two behind them. Could be sold seats where the customer did not show up.

We have done a fair amount of Transat flights to Europe because they do good one way fare pricing. Never an issue. We only do carry on so I cannot comment on checked bag issues.


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## londoncalling

YYZ to YYC is a very popular domestic flight for connecting flights across the west. That is odd that there were seats unused but you are probably correct in that the fares had been paid for the unused spots. I have never used Transat, but have only heard good things over the years and would use them in a minute. Corporate travel limited us to the big names Delta, United, AC and WJ. Occasionally, I could use Alaska or Southwest depending on the destination. The miles for those carriers accumulated over the years and became a default payment for recreational travel. 

As for baggage issues I would suspect they are no worse, likely better, than other airlines and would have better compensation should any thing go wrong.


----------



## londoncalling

I was hoping to take advantage of WJ's boxing day sale and get 20% off fares. The offer ends today and when I went to log in and book my flight I received this message. Time to get on the phone. Sigh


----------



## londoncalling

Further navigation on the platinum page of their site resulted in further disappointment. 









It is understandable that their system cannot handle the current flood of customer service requests. The company was already being berated on social media with its recent sale announcement. The boxing week sale is routine and likely planned in advance. I will be brutally disappointed should they not extend the offering due to technical issues.


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## londoncalling

Site is back up and operational. Was able to book a companion flight and a third fare for the wife. Turns out the 20% off base fare is a better deal per seat than the companion flight.


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## james4beach

Holiday travel may have been awful, but at least you aren't *this* guy. After American Airlines handed his name over to police (for no good reason!) there had been a warrant for his arrest that he didn't know about.

Long after his flight, he was at a July 4 celebration when police ran his license, saw the warrant and arrested him. He spent 17 days in jail.


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## james4beach

A sampled a few hotel prices in big cities and I'm seeing prices crashing in January.

I'm thinking of maybe going to New York City in Jan or Feb. I'd argue it might even be more fun in winter, since it isn't overcrowded with tourists. I went in February a few years ago and everyone was friendly, food was awesome, had a great time. Back then I stayed in a wonderful hotel in Manhattan at a price similar to what Toronto costs.


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## james4beach

Example:
Hyatt Place New York / Chelsea, in January, $135 USD/night. Breakfast included.

In the heart of Manhattan. What a crazy price! Unfortunately I don't live too close to NYC but if I was in Ontario, I think I'd just fly over there and have a fun week in NYC.


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## londoncalling

You must have read my mind. We rebooked our cancelled flights last week (to NYC) . Hotel costs even around the school holidays in February and Easter were down considerably. I even looked at the Hyatt in Chelsea but I don't believe the prices were quite that good. NOw here's hoping the US dollar weakens a bit more to bring that price down a bit more. I prefer to stay outside of the City in Queens or Brooklyn. A quick hop on the subway for way cheaper hotel costs. We plan to see a few of the boroughs so it makes sense for us to travel to Manhattan a couple of days instead of travelling out to the other sites. I am really looking forward to being able to travel outside of peak season like we used to do. As kids get older they tend to miss out on more being away from school a couple of weeks.


----------



## Gothenburg83

Our proposed January trip to go south for some scuba went ....well......south. The sister-in-law proposed the trip ( a first-ever holiday of this kind for the sisters.) Me and Mrs Gothenburg wanted to go diving in Roatan but then prices and dates got complicated, and the nearly trip is now consigned to nothing more than a historical discussion footnote between the sisters.

On a more positive note the Gotheburghs have booked a trip out west to BC for a ski trip early March. Our usual ski buddies seem to have ditched us this year.Probably for the best as they only wanted to go to Panorama and we did 2 weeks with them there in 2020 before the covid lockdown thing and we learned two weeks is a limit on one hill.
Anyhow I was hoping to go to Revelstoke but getting the right accommodation was proving impossible for the dates we agreed on ( ski trips take a lot of in-house negotiations ) So Sun Peaks it is -again!


----------



## ian

We are shopping air for two trips. Thailand/Malaysia in Feb/March and Morocco in either spring of fall.

Air prices to Asia are very high compared to pre covid fares. Hoping to see them come down a little. In the past the best fares we had were purchased with 10-30 days of travel.

Air to Europe/Morocco in spring or fall is up slightly but not much from previous years.

We have also been looking at air to Mexico...PVR and Ixtapa as a backup to Thailand. Very, very high. We bought tickets in late Aug for a direct flight to PVR this past November @ $715. each. Cannot seem get even close to that now.

We use various sites when shopping for air. Google flights, kayak, matrixita, skyscanner, expedia, and airline. Always try to book direct at end of day though. Through several different hubs/routings. We look at one ways and returns.


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## james4beach

Does anyone here use the sites such as yycdeals.com (and similar, for the other major airports)? I wonder if these are worth watching.


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## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Does anyone here use the sites such as yycdeals.com (and similar, for the other major airports)? I wonder if these are worth watching.


I‘ve started using Google flights. you Enter your requested flight and will search and find flights and report back to you. Can’t yet comment on how good it is.


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## ian

james4beach said:


> Does anyone here use the sites such as yycdeals.com (and similar, for the other major airports)? I wonder if these are worth watching.


Yes, we subscribe to YYZ, YCR, and YYCdeals.

Last trips to SE Asia, one to Bangkok, another to Singapore we scored air for $750-$775 return from Calgary on the advice of this site. One thing though....you need to act quickly.

This site gave us a heads up on great airfare on our May/June trip to Portugal.

Just this week YYZdeals sent us a heads up for $440. return air fare YYZ to Portugal (lisbon, porto, or madeira) in Oct. $1600 for business class.

We also subscribe to the Travelzoo site.


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## ian

Money172375 said:


> I‘ve started using Google flights. you Enter your requested flight and will search and find flights and report back to you. Can’t yet comment on how good it is.


What I really like about Google flights are the date grid and the price graph options since our travel days are very flexible. Matrixita does this and gives you the fare code for each segment.


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## james4beach

ian said:


> Yes, we subscribe to YYZ, YCR, and YYCdeals.
> 
> Last trips to SE Asia, one to Bangkok, another to Singapore we scored air for $750-$775 return from Calgary on the advice of this site. One thing though....you need to act quickly.
> 
> This site gave us a heads up on great airfare on our May/June trip to Portugal.


Interesting. I'll have to try Google Flights, too.

I want to get to Australia but when I looked in November the prices were insanely high, I think more than double what I had paid in 2019. I want to watch for deals to Australia, and I'm very flexible on time.

Has anyone seen any Aussie deals? There are direct flights from YVR.


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## ian

james4beach said:


> Interesting. I'll have to try Google Flights, too.
> 
> I want to get to Australia but when I looked in November the prices were insanely high, I think more than double what I had paid in 2019. I want to watch for deals to Australia, and I'm very flexible on time.
> 
> Has anyone seen any Aussie deals? There are direct flights from YVR.


On two of our Thailand snowbird trips we have one on to Australia for three or four weeks.

Both times we came home on one way tickets. We booked a one way fare SYD-HNL on Jetstar Australia. This is a sub of Qantas. One of those flights was a codeshare with Qantas.

The fare…we paid $300-$400AUD but we did book two months in advance. The prices really vary so it depends on how far in advance, what day, what time. No idea what the current fares look like.

We spent 2 nights in Honolulu to break up the trip. It was relatively easy to pick up a competitive one way fare home from HNL

It seems to me that I did see OZ deals from Canada via SFO deals. But that was a little while ago and I do not remember the time frames. YXXdeals does have a search option as I recall. Or you could search on Travelzoo.

In the past we have flown in to Gold Coast Airport and then home via Sydney.


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## james4beach

ian said:


> On two of our Thailand snowbird trips we have one on to Australia for three or four weeks.
> 
> Both times we came home on one way tickets. We booked a one way fare SYD-HNL on Jetstar Australia. This is a sub of Qantas. One of those flights was a codeshare with Qantas.
> 
> The fare…we paid $300-$400AUD but we did book two months in advance. The prices really vary so it depends on how far in advance, what day, what time. No idea what the current fares look like.
> 
> We spent 2 nights in Honolulu to break up the trip. It was relatively easy to pick up a competitive one way fare home from HNL
> 
> It seems to me that I did see OZ deals from Canada via SFO deals. But that was a little while ago and I do not remember the time frames. YXXdeals does have a search option as I recall. Or you could search on Travelzoo.
> 
> In the past we have flown in to Gold Coast Airport and then home via Sydney.


Thanks, this is a very interesting idea. Sounds like it could be fun to spend a couple days in Honolulu. There are indeed many competitive fares, even Air Canada, from Hawaii to Canada.

I'd be happy flying to/from Sydney, Brisbane or the Gold Coast. I have "things to do" in all of those locations 

These new ideas are a bit too exciting, so I'd better go and try to focus on work instead of booking yet another beach getaway.


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## londoncalling

Flights to Hawaii are usually cheaper than other sunny destinations. However, I find it really difficult to find suitable accommodation without spending a fortune.


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## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> Flights to Hawaii are usually cheaper than other sunny destinations. However, I find it really difficult to find suitable accommodation without spending a fortune.


That's a good point. The flights may be cheap, but the accommodation...


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## Covariance

Perhaps reverse engineer to see where the low cost carriers to/from Australia fly and whether those other nodes are of interest/easy for you to get to.

Also consider going the other way or (more likely for YVR origination) through Asia. Either for interest, other meetings, or economics. Pre covid I had a nice trip down from SIN. Better than AC's YVR SYD experience. There is New Zealand as well.

You could also consider waiting for other carriers to ramp back up. I notice Virgin is still not flying trans pac.


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## ian

Low cost airlines based in SE Asia and Australia are excellent. We have used Jetstar Australia numerous times for travel within Australia and international.

Same for Singapore based Scoot Airlines, a sub. of Singapore Air.

AirAsia is another good one. We have probably had more flights on AIrAsia over the past ten years than we have had on AC or Westjet.

Unfortunately although all of them do operate extensive international routes the only one to my knowledge that connects to the US (Hawaii) or Canada is Jetstar. That may change. I saw a article that Air Asia is looking to expand. We have done AirAsia and Scoot from SE Asia to Australia (Gold Coast) a few times.


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## james4beach

Jetstar is indeed a good one, and I've flown with them a lot domestically in AU. They're a subsidiary of Qantas, which might explain the quality.

I've never been to Singapore and have indeed thought of checking it out. It might be a good place for me to do business, so it's time I started poking around there.

So maybe a good route to/from Australia is via Singapore? Is that a sensible way to get there?


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## ian

james4beach said:


> Jetstar is indeed a good one, and I've flown with them a lot domestically in AU. They're a subsidiary of Qantas, which might explain the quality.
> 
> I've never been to Singapore and have indeed thought of checking it out. It might be a good place for me to do business, so it's time I started poking around there.
> 
> So maybe a good route to/from Australia is via Singapore? Is that a sensible way to get there?


We flown to Singapore from SFO. We did business class lay down seats that we bid for. 17 hour flight. We would not do this in economy..it would be brutal. 10 hours in economy is about our limit.

We have flown from Krabi, Thailand to Singapore on Scoot. And from Singapore to Gold Coast. Also KL to Gold Coast. Thing is, the airlines do not have any NA continent routes AS YET. This could change.


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## james4beach

ian said:


> We flown to Singapore from SFO. We did business class lay down seats that we bid for. 17 hour flight. We would not do this in economy..it would be brutal. 10 hours in economy is about our limit.


That's a really long flight and I don't think I can handle that. I don't think I can afford business class.

The Vancouver to SYD direct is only 14 hours and I have found the AC flight to be comfortable (economy), so I know I'm able to do that.


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## Covariance

You would likely consider SIN if you were flying East. for instance from LHR, or DXB


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