# Leased land?



## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

I was thinking that the best way to get a cheap place would be to find some farmer to lease me say 1-2 acres with water, hydro, road access, about 100km's from TO. I could but my own modular home there, i assume there wouldn't be a need for a permit? 
When i look at the many leased land properties i see many dumpy looking trailer for say 50k when they are only worth 10k. The land lease seems like a good idea, if things don't work out can just leave and move the house somewhere else.
I'm also considering other houses with land lease that seem like an affordable option. For example a say one (real) house for 120k but the lease is $500 a month. But the property would otherwise be worth maybe $200,000+ so $80k difference. Consider tax would be 2k on the freehold house, that 3k per year or 30 years worth. 
I also wonder how safe many of the house land leases are? I was surprise to see that the land leases are govern buy the LTB. What i gather is the native lease are no go but government control land should be safe even for a life time. It seems some lease are for 5 years or more, i even heard of a 'life lease' i was surprised even existed.
Would you buy a landlease houses? Do they cost more in then end? Yes i know many look dreadful (small, crowded piece of land) but some look like real bargains set on huge acreage.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

How is this any different from the thread you started last week, asking virtually the exact same question?

In fact for the past 3 years you have started numerous threads asking pretty much the same thing.


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## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

I've never asked about land leases before. Before i was thinking to buy land, but now i think that i will be too expensive with permits for septic and water. But i think if someone rents me land on their property it would be different, since there is so much agricultural land close to Toronto it makes sense. Or with this be a permit issue again?
I was also wondering what people thought about land leases in general.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Why not just rent a spot in a trailer park and buy a trailer? It seems to me this would be a lot easier than all these weird ideas you keep coming up with.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

We had whole subdivisions built on leased land here in Vancouver. When originally built, they were cheaper, but then the land lease renewed at market rates, and many homeowners lost their equity. I live in a rental apartment on leased land. I get a deal because the land is priced in at 1967 rates. It is good for 99 years. But in 2066, watch for a catastrophe. I am not planning to be around then...


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Build a building, need a permit. That's all there is to it.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

chaudi said:


> I've never asked about land leases before. Before i was thinking to buy land, but now i think that i will be too expensive with permits for septic and water. But i think if someone rents me land on their property it would be different, since there is so much agricultural land close to Toronto it makes sense. Or with this be a permit issue again?
> I was also wondering what people thought about land leases in general.


You can't evade regulatory requirements by building on leased land. You still need permits, and code-conforming water system, septic system, and building. Plus Hydro is going to charge you an arm & a leg to bring in power.

On top of which you are making capital improvements on land that you do not own Under most laws, any improvements that you are unable to remove become the property of the landowner when the lease expires.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Not allowed anywhere in Ontario that I know of.

There really is no way to get a cheap place to live anymore.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Not allowed anywhere in Ontario that I know of.
> 
> There really is no way to get a cheap place to live anymore.


Sure there is: Buy a woodlot. Buy a trailer. Park the trailer out of sight of the road. Get Post Office Box. Tadaa! You're the Unibomber!


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Then don't forget to drive it out for fresh water and a pump-out. Probably once a week if you are really frugal and have a pressurized system.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

Depending upon where you are planning to park the trailer you may want to check with the local municipality first. In Ontario, unless it is a registered trailer park, you cannot park a trailer on a property for long term residence in most municipalities.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

That's why it's out of sight! Maybe in the Midland Area. Or he could import a trailer from Detroit!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

what about the possibility of a rural coop or group home for chaudi & newbie/wolf & perhaps belguy.

then Alice & the Froggy Footman could look after all 3 at once. Not much more trouble than looking after the Dormouse by himself.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I do truly get the desire to find a cheap place to live and get away from the awful prices of Toronto.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Berubeland said:


> I do truly get the desire to find a cheap place to live and get away from the awful prices of Toronto.


Cheap places are cheap for a reason - the reasons may differ, but there's always a reason.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

why not buy/rent a cheap house somewhere in SSW ontario? Something rural outside of chatham near lake Erie. Food and housing is cheap in the area. And you're by the lake and near some great parks for birdwatching.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

There is even a park near Fort Erie with mobile homes for sale on the lake. A friend's parent have a mobile there. It is an easy drive to Buffalo for supplies.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

crazyjackcsa said:


> Sure there is: Buy a woodlot. Buy a trailer. Park the trailer out of sight of the road. Get Post Office Box. Tadaa! You're the Unibomber!


The building inspector will find you. Google earth, or just by neighborhood gossip.


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## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

I was considering Niagara area for a while then Chippewa, then i went to Chippewa a few times and realize what many people had told me; not a great area. I think a lot of pollution comes from the states also criminals. I see the same disparity from Hamilton, to Niagara, to ...Fort erie, to Windsor. I don't think the run down American cities such as Cleveland, Detroit, Pittsburgh are a such a good influence.
Crystal Beach looks okay but alot like Niagara falls, tourists are annoying after a while. 
Those who like Lake Erie have you been to Georgian bay? i would like to hear your opinions.
At least for me GB is the prettiest area in Ontario. I think the neighbouring $$ cottages are a healthy sign, when you go to the cottage you go north! The place i'm looking at now is port mcncoll. i know midland has a bit of crime, but not worse than the places i mention or even say Oshawa.
The drive is much better on the 400 too. Lots evergreens after Barrie, that will be nice in winter. I figure it would be better to be in cottage country than a some run down town in south Ontario. The port is heading for million dollar expansion too, 300k+ for a new houses. a huge ship is parked there now too. They are hoping to make it to a bigger yacht destination, in 10-20 years it could be a quiet different at least better.... but who really knows. okay 1 guys was knifed a few weeks ago, it's a really small town. I wonder if it is the right thing to move near there? This is such a stress full decision. I know financial it will be much better for me, because you can't even rent a house for less than $800 or maybe $700 almost anywhere in Ontario, and if you do it won't be so good and no it would not be the same as owning a house for me. Renting is a big difference from owning. So in less than 10 year this house will have paid for it self in rent i figure. So i really have to move to my own house to save money. 
But now it feels like the RE market is really bursting...this one cottage was $64k in 2002, now maybe 110k. Assuming it's a sound place, could it go back to 2002 prices in a few years? i guess it doesn't matter because i will save on spending on rent around 10k a year. I hate big decisions. At least i'll have a cheap place to live, i guess the locals can't be that bad. I'm still confused why it is so cheaper in that area compared to another 1 hour drive north, like Parry Sound? Other than being more remote and more north.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Our family cottage was at Woodland Beach. Went there for many years. Spent trips in Midland, Penetang, Port McNicoll, Collingwood. It is becoming like Scarborough north with year round residents. We sold out in 2000. For $200k.

I lived in London and we tried Lake Erie and Lake Huron at the weekends. Not the same at all. Evidence of not much money. But we also did the Thousand Islands, Prince Edward County, Bay of Quinte when we lived in TO. It is nicer than Erie for sure but the prices show it.


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## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

Are land lease from natives different regular landleases? What i gather is the LTB applies to land leases. I wonder what these communities are like? Considering some big ape just threatened me at Vicpark & Eglinton No frills for no reason. I'm thinking some natives reserves might me peacefully area to like with sweat lodges and stuff like that going on? 
There must be something wrong on this georgian islands because so many are always for sale, or maybe it's just summer. 

http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=12042392&PidKey=498511354


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

Well that one is accessable by ferry only......

You should contact a realtor and discuss your housing needs, and the financial restrictions for your purchase. They know the market best and will be best able to guide you towards a suitable property. They will be familiar with alot of the answers to your questions.

I find it ironic that you have a link to a toronto beaches website on your postings, when all of your postings are about you leaving the city.


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## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

Cal said:


> Well that one is accessable by ferry only......
> 
> You should contact a realtor and discuss your housing needs, and the financial restrictions for your purchase. They know the market best and will be best able to guide you towards a suitable property. They will be familiar with alot of the answers to your questions.
> 
> I find it ironic that you have a link to a toronto beaches website on your postings, when all of your postings are about you leaving the city.


Why don't you ask a financial planner or stock broker rather than taking advice on from some unknown people on the internet? I can ask you the same question. 

I don't trust RE agent much more, that's why i ask you guys what the real deal is with lease land or RE. Why do you think people post on a forum? I was hoping to hear some horror stores like losing their investment and being force to move etc. real life experiences. 

Landleases seem like the ideal situation, lower taxes, lower risk to market fluctuation. Perhaps a better community. Trailer parks are out of the questions, what's left: native, government and private.

If you read my posts you'll notice that i mention close to Toronto is being a requirement; so i can come and visit the beaches. BTW, feel free to post a link to your web site.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

chaudi said:


> There must be something wrong on this georgian islands because so many are always for sale, or maybe it's just summer.
> 
> http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=12042392&PidKey=498511354


Have you checked the ferry schedule? I would hate to have an investment dependent of some ferry operator. Even BC ferries is under costs pressure and is reducing scheduled trips to the smaller places. The capital cost for that place is $233000 by including the lease commitment. Then you have to speculate of how much the lease renewal will be? I would not touch this one for that reason alone.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

The other thing is they refer to that place as a cottage and don't mention winterized, so probably it's not usable during winter. I don't know much about leased land so can't contribute other than that.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Spudd said:


> The other thing is they refer to that place as a cottage and don't mention winterized, so probably it's not usable during winter. I don't know much about leased land so can't contribute other than that.


I am sure there is no ferry service in the winter either so it is truly a seasonal investment/expense.

Have you ever seen how desolate Georgian Bay looks in the winter time? If not, you should take a trip up in March. Even Collingwood is bad.


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## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

"Have you ever seen how desolate Georgian Bay looks in the winter time? If not, you should take a trip up in March. Even Collingwood is bad. "
Yes i was thinking that too winter might be brutal, should be fairly close to town, that why i was thinking Port mcnicoll is close to Midland, but i'm not sure about that area anymore seems every month someone is murdered. 
But doesn't every where look rather sad in winter? I figure further north you seem more coniferous trees, that's one reason i don't like in south ontario that much.
Looks like Orillia is a good choice with Lakehead university, i forgot that it was there. Is problem around Midland; is no post secondary education.
How would you rate these choices?

Port Hope, Cobourg 
Lindsay,
Rice Lake, 
Orillia, 
Midland/Pentang, 
Peterbourgh

I think a cottage with well and septic is the best choice because of low costs. 3 season cottages are usually easy to upgrade. Some cottages are in good shape and hardly used.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)




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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Guys! Snake Island is NOT Georgian Bay. It's in Lake Simcoe. :chuncky:


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

p.s. Direct your questions about leased Native land to me if you like (this is a general invitation). Here's much more information on leasing an interest on First Nations land in Canada: http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100034737#ch5


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

chaudi said:


> Why don't you ask a financial planner or stock broker rather than taking advice on from some unknown people on the internet? I can ask you the same question.


I generally don't ask questions on this site. I try to offer advice taken from my personal experience to guide others in what I perceive as the right direction.

You really should find a RE agent that you are comfortable working with. It will make the process go alot smoother for you.


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## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

> You really should find a RE agent that you are comfortable working with. It will make the process go alot smoother for you.


I am a newbie but what i gather there is not that much benefit in using an RE agent. The may know local knowledge but i don't think that is so valuable. You can call up any RE agent and they will talk your ear off for free. The other thing is you have no time they can help you like that arrange service for you. If you are in competitive market they may be useful for a bidding war. If you are just moving in for out of town etc.
Other than that is just gonna cost you another 2%.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

As a newbie to the process I am sure many would argue that is all the more reason to hire a RE agent to represent your best interests.

You probably don't want to hire a RE agent that has all of the time to talk your ear off. Time is money. A good RE agent will get to the point. I am sure you will find it worth the effort to have qualified, experienced representation when you decide where you would like to buy.

All the best.


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## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

It would be helpful if you actually gave some fact or reasons rather your blind opinion that 'i am a newbie.' 

For example if i know which place i want to put an offer in, why would i need a agent? Could they really negotiate a better price? If 2% better than no gain. It's not that hard to figure out what a decent price is (cheaper.)

If i make an offer for a house that is say 200k and another person bids 202k, my offer would still be accepted because with another 2.5% commission the buyer would net 195k rather than 192k. This way everyone is happy.

Why would i need to pay an agent $1000's of dollar to help me fill out a document that it no more complicated than a rental lease? In fact the most complicated part of buyers offer seems to be the buyer agent agreement, i don't want touch one of those with a 10 foot pole.

Bad house deals get sold no? They didn't have agents working for them? They certainly did, so there is some serious risk in trusting a RE agent.

Lastly if i was the seller, i think i would be happier selling my property with less commission, so they maybe motivated to work with me. Also the seller's agent will get the buyer more money, win win win.
There is still a whole bunch of safety nets for me, the sellers agents still must disclose everything to me or risk getting sued, i will still need a lawyer and housing survey.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

I think the greatest use of a RE agent during the buying process is to help you figure out what place to put an offer in on. That seems to be a real issue for you. They have access to comparable properties, and the sale history. Also their wealth of contacts in regards to home inspectors and such. Unless you don't trust them too. Remember the buying agent represents the sellers. Not the buyers. If you think you can negotiate better than a RE agent that is familiar with comparables, and sale history, then by all means do so.

As per your example, why would you pay a RE agent 1000's of dollars to buy a home. You don't. The seller pays them. Also keep in mind agents rates are negotiable. 

Which is why a good agent, would reduce their commission, to get the deal to work in your other example. Otherwise you don't buy, and they don't make anything.

I think of it more as using a lawyer to negotiate a lease. This is what some lawyers specialize in. Why would I think I could do better. Maybe I would negotiate a lease, and not realize how much of a better deal I could have gotten. 

If you don't want to use a RE agent, then don't.

Like I said. All the best.


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## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

"As per your example, why would you pay a RE agent 1000's of dollars to buy a home. You don't. The seller pays them. Also keep in mind agents rates are negotiable. "

But the seller makes an agreement with their agent for say 2.5% to sell the house. Then the buyer makes an agreement with their agent for 2.5%. Two agents, two commission one house. 
So the total is '5% the seller is paying.' if the house sells for 200k, the seller nets 190k, each agent gets a cheque for 5k.
But if you don't have buyers agent then the seller would net 195k. So seller does not pay the buyers commission, that is simply false.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

kcowan said:


> There is even a park near Fort Erie with mobile homes for sale on the lake. A friend's parent have a mobile there. It is an easy drive to Buffalo for supplies.


You don't need to go to Buffalo (thank god, with the border delays). Fort Erie has 4 grocery stores, a WalMart, Canadian Tire, etc. 




Regarding convincing a farmer to lease you a couple acres of agricultural land: they aren't interested. Farmers are running multi-million dollar businesses. They don't want any more neighbours to complain about them operating equipment, spraying pesticides/herbicides/fertilizers, kicking up dust, etc. They don't care about you and the grand or two you think you'd like to pay per year for their land.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

chaudi said:


> So seller does not pay the buyers commission, that is simply false.


This must be a change since I sold my last house (in Toronto in 2009). 5% split between selling agent and buyer's agent. When did you sell your last house?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i would like to say that i enjoy chaudi's accounts of his meanderings across southern ontario & his pilgrim's progress towards that unachievable st-jacques-de-campostele-in-the-sky. Which would be a safe, pretty, picturesque, inexpensive house or home in an idyllic storybook town or village within easy commute of downtown toronto.

what makes chaudi's journal/logbook interesting is that he seems to be a relative newcomer to canada, so his observations are fresh & unusual. In the end, isn't he looking for the same rare, unobtainable southern ontario wild flower that everybody else dreams of finding.

chaudi - recently i was talking to an irish girl on a 2-year temporary work visa in canada. She was in vancouver, loving this country & hoping she can figure out a way to stay permanently. Since her job pays peanuts, i asked her if she had had any trouble finding accommodation in $$ pricey van.

she said no. She said there are some decent places to live at reasonable cost, even in vancouver; but the renter has to search extremely hard.

so please don't give up. Perhaps your rose-covered cottage will appear. At the next bend in the road.


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## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

"This must be a change since I sold my last house (in Toronto in 2009). 5% split between selling agent and buyer's agent. When did you sell your last house? "

So the seller negotiated a commission with sellers agents that is then split 50-50 with the buyers agent? I thought the seller and buyer negotiated their own commission separately? And the seller must pay the buyer agent commission?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

No the seller pays 5% and half of it goes to any buyer's agent. Sure it is possible to negotiate away from the standard contract. But why would you do that? This is one of the most expensive single assets most people own. I believe in outsourcing when you are getting value in return.

There are standard discounts when properties are listed for higher prices, like the penthouses in downtown Vancouver and Toronto for over $10 million. Or the sellers of new construction.


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## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

kcowan said:


> No the seller pays 5% and half of it goes to any buyer's agent. Sure it is possible to negotiate away from the standard contract. But why would you do that?


So if i negotiate myself without a buyer's agent then the seller's agent will just take the entire 5%?

When the agent wants me to sign a buyer's agreement we negotiate the commission. How can they negotiate for more than seller has agreed to when the seller is unknown at that point, if the seller is suppose to pay for it.
For example if we agree to 2% then the sellers agent would get 3%? What if we agree to 3%, seller's agent won't be happy to get just 2%.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

kcowan said:


> I believe in outsourcing when you are getting value in return.


Thank You, that is what I was trying to say.

Chaudi, generally all of these %'s and breakdowns (if there is a buying and selling agent, or if there is just a selling agent) is already signed to by the seller in the selling agreement. Yes, they can amend this. And changes can be made, but that is generally just so they have some lee-way to make a deal go through or in the event that some home fixture or chattel gets broken or something and the agents may cough up some $ to get it repaired or buy a new one.

Also, generally outside of the city the average split commision is 5% and inside the city it is 4.5%.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

chaudi said:


> So if i negotiate myself without a buyer's agent then the seller's agent will just take the entire 5%?
> 
> When the agent wants me to sign a buyer's agreement we negotiate the commission. How can they negotiate for more than seller has agreed to when the seller is unknown at that point, if the seller is suppose to pay for it.
> For example if we agree to 2% then the sellers agent would get 3%? What if we agree to 3%, seller's agent won't be happy to get just 2%.


Yes the seller will take the whole 5% unless they agree to something lower to make the deal happen. This enables the listing agent to "double up". They love those deals. 

If you sign a buyer's agreement, you are just commiting to make sure the agent gets the amount specified. i.e. if you agree to 3%, they will get 2.5% from the seller and 0.5% from you.

If you ask the listing agent to take less than 5%, you are limiting the effort they will spend on your home.


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## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

Okay thanks for explaining that. I actually was just watching Freakonomic yesterday which explained it too.





The sellers agent would get the full 5% as you say they love those deal. My strategy is to low ball these cottages, if you look up there in Simcoe there are so many cottages for sale it is really a buyers market. I talked to some of the locals it is all retired Europeans trying to sell there cottages. I still can't see anything wrong with that area, it is stunningly beautiful nature. Just lots of inventory, people want their high prices but it take years to sell. Not going to be easy to sell a cottage in the winter.

As the explained in the video the agent would have a lot of motivation to convince the buyer to take my low ball offer.
The agents are rather predictable too, they always tell lies. Just yesterday i emailed the agent my low ball offer, i get a message from her black berry that she out all day showing houses. Then later she says she has two offer close to asking price on her desk and that i should raise mine. Then late last night she admits she just expects those offers. Ha ha. All their dishonesty makes me want to run far away from them. Actually there is private sale just down the street, the agent even tried to hint that they may not be disclosing something. So predictable.
So in the end they have no motivation to find you a cheap price at all, just the reverse since they get paid more when you pay more. All they do is shoot you mls listings, try to get you buy anything.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

For the amount that it actually makes in a RE agents commission, and when you factor in the time involved for showings and such, I would say that RE agents would much prefer a quick deal, than a deal that takes longer and actually gets the asking price.

Good luck with your low ball offer. It may take a bunch of attempts, but you will find a motivated seller and work out a great deal for both of you.


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