# so vaccines....?



## jargey3000

it's shaping up that there appears to be a number of DIFFERENT vaccines that are effective against the covid...This is a little confusing to me.
Can some or you epidemiological experts explain this , to a dum-dum like me?


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## Money172375

jargey3000 said:


> it's shaping up that there appears to be a number of DIFFERENT vaccines that are effective against the covid...This is a little confusing to me.
> Can some or you epidemiological experts explain this , to a dum-dum like me?


I’m I expert, but is it similar to tylenol, Advil, aspirin.....three different drugs that treat similar symptoms?

I did hear that one of the four promising vaccines is a different type? Three of them are RNA? And the fourth isn’t?

i suppose the next question is......will you accept it once it’s available?


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## MrMatt

There are a number of different vaccine technologies, the basic idea is that they trick your body into developing antibodies that are effective against COVID19. Lots of different ways to do this.

There are dozens of vaccines at various stages, but there are only a handful of frontrunners today. They are apparently reasonably effective.


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## james4beach

jargey3000 said:


> it's shaping up that there appears to be a number of DIFFERENT vaccines that are effective against the covid...This is a little confusing to me.
> Can some or you epidemiological experts explain this , to a dum-dum like me?


Many of the vaccines that were created in the last few months appear to be highly effective. This is a hugely good news .... the vaccines were created in record fast time, and appear to be more effective than most people expected.

Basically it's something like 20 different companies creating 20 different vaccines. Each is a different formula and manufacturing technique. It's looking like several of these, from multiple companies, are effective against COVID.

Clinical trials are ongoing. In these trials, the vaccines are used on real people and the results are tracked. This will give us more data about how effective they are (on different kinds of people such as different age groups) and also tell us if there are any significant side effects.

As more trials happen, we'll know more clearly. But early results look like MANY of these vaccines are working.


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## Eclectic12

I'm curious as to what criteria was used to winnow the WHO's list of fifty two vaccine candidates in clinical trials down to twenty?

Where one wants to know what's being worked on, another one hundred and sixty plus are in the "pre clinical evaluation" list.


Cheers


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## Mortgage u/w

Money172375 said:


> .....i suppose the next question is......will you accept it once it’s available?


The same scenario occurred when the H1N1 vaccine came out 10 years ago. All the conspiracy theorists were against it. It was soon forgotten. Little that they know, H1N1 has been a standard strain in the yearly flu vaccine ever since. My guess is COVID19 will also be added and it too will be soon be forgotten.


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## MrMatt

Mortgage u/w said:


> The same scenario occurred when the H1N1 vaccine came out 10 years ago. All the conspiracy theorists were against it. It was soon forgotten. Little that they know, H1N1 has been a standard strain in the yearly flu vaccine ever since. My guess is COVID19 will also be added and it too will be soon be forgotten.


H1N1 is a subtype of Influenza A, it's "always" been around.

FYI, the spanish flu was also a H1N1 virus.

The issue with COVID19 vaccines is
1. They are rushed.
2. Many use new technologies and techniques that are not commonly used on humans.
3. Huge political pressure to get a vaccine approved.

Do you want to be the guy at the FDA saying "Mr Trump, I can't approve this yet"?

There are legitimate concerns with using new technologies.
We don't yet know the long term side effects of these vaccines.


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## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> I’m I expert, but is it similar to tylenol, Advil, aspirin.....three different drugs that treat similar symptoms?


 ... so you're a drug expert here? The only similiar symptom these 3 drugs are for is "pain" or more like a headache.

You should not be taking Aspirin if you're on blood thinner.

Tylenol (plus aspirin) won''t be really effective if you have pain from an infection.

Advil is best for pain from infections. 

Tylenol for general pain plus fever and arthrithris



> I did hear that one of the four promising vaccines is a different type? Three of them are RNA? And the fourth isn’t?
> 
> i suppose the next question is......will you accept it once it’s available?


 ... that's a good question. Heard it's not mandatory ... this should shut the anti-vaxxers up.


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## kcowan

and the mRNA vaccines are fundamentally different than ANY vaccine ever developed before. So long term effcts and how the vaccination affects transmitting the disease to others will not be known this year.


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## bgc_fan

kcowan said:


> and the mRNA vaccines are fundamentally different than ANY vaccine ever developed before. So long term effcts and how the vaccination affects transmitting the disease to others will not be known this year.


While it's true that we don't know any long-term effects; it should be fundamentally safe unlike the traditional vaccines which use either weakened live virus, or inactive virus.

The mRNA vaccines only provide the portion that encodes the protein antigens of the virus envelope. Short explanation is that the mRNA gets read by the body's cellular machinery and produces the protein of interest. The body will view it as a foreign body and attack it, with the memory kept in the T-cell. So the next time the antigen enters the body, it'll be attacked by the immune system. Obviously if the virus mutates enough that the antigen is no longer recognizable, the immune response will be lessened.

Here's an older paper about the technology: mRNA vaccines â€” a new era in vaccinology

But since no active/inactive virus is actually injected, I'd think that it is safer and more effective than the traditional vaccines. However, as mRNA is pretty fragile, storage and delivery considerations are the issue.


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## agent99

kcowan said:


> and the mRNA vaccines are fundamentally different than ANY vaccine ever developed before. So long term effcts and how the vaccination affects transmitting the disease to others will not be known this year.


This is a question I have. Suppose a couple are staying safe as they can in their own home. One is over 80, the other not. The over 80 is eligible for the early vaccine roll out, the spouse not. The vaccinated spouse now feels safe to go out and about. If they are exposed to Covid (but protected from it by vaccine), can they still bring it home and infect their spouse?


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## cainvest

agent99 said:


> This is a question I have. Suppose a couple are staying safe as they can in their own home. One is over 80, the other not. The over 80 is eligible for the early vaccine roll out, the spouse not. The vaccinated spouse now feels safe to go out and about. If they are exposed to Covid (but protected from it by vaccine), can they still bring it home and infect their spouse?


Short answer ... Yes, the other could still get infected.
Remember the the vaccine itself is not proven to be 100% effective so caution is still needed. The real protection (for the overall general public) will come after many incubation periods have passed after most are vaccinated.

Edit: Virus shedding and infectious periods will no doubt be monitored after the rollout. Case numbers should be able to show the impact of the vaccine in as little as a few weeks I would gather.


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## bgc_fan

agent99 said:


> The vaccinated spouse now feels safe to go out and about. If they are exposed to Covid (but protected from it by vaccine), can they still bring it home and infect their spouse?


Yes. The point of the vaccine is that your immune system can deal with the virus, but you're still carrying it and can spread it. The point of herd immunity and immunization is that the virus doesn't stick around the body that long and reduce the chances of you infecting someone else.


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## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> While it's true that we don't know any long-term effects; it should be fundamentally safe unlike the traditional vaccines which use either weakened live virus, or inactive virus.
> 
> The mRNA vaccines only provide the portion that encodes the protein antigens of the virus envelope. Short explanation is that the mRNA gets read by the body's cellular machinery and produces the protein of interest. The body will view it as a foreign body and attack it, with the memory kept in the T-cell. So the next time the antigen enters the body, it'll be attacked by the immune system. Obviously if the virus mutates enough that the antigen is no longer recognizable, the immune response will be lessened.
> 
> Here's an older paper about the technology: mRNA vaccines â€” a new era in vaccinology
> 
> But since no active/inactive virus is actually injected, I'd think that it is safer and more effective than the traditional vaccines. However, as mRNA is pretty fragile, storage and delivery considerations are the issue.


Fundamentally safe?
I understand that with mRNA vaccines you have absolutely no risk of catching the diesease. Good.

However the mRNA benefit is that a single spike protein can be used to target a large number of viruses, or potentially cancer cells etc.

Lets say they choose a mRNA that targets something that we want?
What if the mRNA in a particular vaccine targets the immune system on healthy cells, essential bacteria, bone marrow, lung cells?

I think traditional dead virus injections are pretty safe we're telling it to watch for this specific viral strain.

But to active our immune system and say "blast anything that looks like this", is inherently risky. 

I agree that the intention is only to target bad things, but the point of unknown side effects is that they're UNKNOWN. It's also why you need large samples and time to see the effects.


I wonder if there was ever another treatment that ended up with unintentional side effects.
Hmm, lets take a cancer drug that was formerly used as an anti-nauseau drug.
*Thalidomide*
How many years, and how many lives destroyed before they realized... ooops I guess it DOES have side effects.


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## bgc_fan

jargey3000 said:


> it's shaping up that there appears to be a number of DIFFERENT vaccines that are effective against the covid...This is a little confusing to me.
> Can some or you epidemiological experts explain this , to a dum-dum like me?


So, I'll use an analogy, think of the virus as a bomb inside a lockbox that can only be opened by a specific key. If you can open the lockbox, you can disable the bomb and all is good, but as time goes on, the bombs duplicate so the longer it goes, the more bombs you need to disable. The immune system can be seen as the bomb squad who is responsible for defeating the bomb. The bomb squad has a collection of keys for different bombs and will try them, but if they don't work, they have to work on developing a specific key.

This is where vaccines come into play:

Traditional: You give the bomb squad a disabled bomb, or weakened one (so instead of an explosion, it just gives a puff of smoke), and they work on producing the key. Obvious side-effect if they don't do it in time, the bomb could reproduce and explode, but the damage is significantly reduced.

Virus analog: You give the bomb squad something that looks like the bomb, and has a similar lock. You won't get an explosion if things go wrong. The drawback is that the key developed by the bomb squad may not fit the real thing; however, it will speed up the process of making the key, so bombs may go off, but not as many as if they didn't have the analog.

mRNA: You give the bomb squad the specifications of the lock, and they build it. They then develop the key to open the lock. So, no chance of explosion, and the key will definitely fit the lock of the real thing. The problem is that the specifications are printed on tissue paper and if not handled correctly, they may not see the plans to build the lock, so they never develop the key.

Of course, variations and mutations can occur which may modify the lock so that the key doesn't fit 100% securely; however, maybe enough to open a few locks, or the keys need slight modification. It may mean a few explosions, but you wouldn't suffer the full effect.

Those are generally the different types of vaccines. There are nuances, but as an overview, I think that would be understandable.


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## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> mRNA: You give the bomb squad the specifications of the lock, and they build it. They then develop the key to open the lock. So, no chance of explosion, and the key will definitely fit the lock of the real thing. The problem is that the specifications are printed on tissue paper and if not handled correctly, they may not see the plans to build the lock, so they never develop the key.


No 
mRNA is more like.

You tell the bomb squad "this is what a suicide bomber looks like, go kill them" then hope for the best.

Do we have any idea how "accurate" the specification is? 
The idea of mRNA is that the specification is broad enough to catch not just the target viral strain, but also similar ones. Which is why it is promising for HIV. It's also why the possibility of dangerous side effects is there.


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## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> Lets say they choose a mRNA that targets something that we want?
> What if the mRNA in a particular vaccine targets the immune system on healthy cells, essential bacteria, bone marrow, lung cells?


Doesn't work that way. The point is the mRNA doesn't target anything. It provides the blueprint for a protein. If the protein isn't already in the body, then it's viewed as foreign and you have the appropriate immune response. If the mRNA gets translated into an existing protein, then there's nothing new for the immune system because the body already produces that protein.


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## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> No
> mRNA is more like.
> 
> You tell the bomb squad "this is what a suicide bomber looks like, go kill them" then hope for the best.
> 
> Do we have any idea how "accurate" the specification is?
> The idea of mRNA is that the specification is broad enough to catch not just the target viral strain, but also similar ones. Which is why it is promising for HIV. It's also why the possibility of dangerous side effects is there.


Yeah, you don't understand biochemistry. Why don't you do some research and understand what an mRNA strand is before posting?


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## Eclectic12

MrMatt said:


> ... The issue with COVID19 vaccines is
> 1. They are rushed.
> 2. Many use new technologies and techniques that are not commonly used on humans.
> 3. Huge political pressure to get a vaccine approved ...
> 
> There are legitimate concerns with using new technologies.
> We don't yet know the long term side effects of these vaccines.


Sure ... though a lot of the question for the speed aspect is how much is because of the new method (speed is why it was being researched as well as chosen) and how much is political pressure and/or cutting corners?

How much risk is there in a typically fifteen year method being done in a year or two?
How much risk is a method that in thirty years has developed a vaccine for animals but covid will be the first human one?


Cheers


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## MrMatt

Eclectic12 said:


> Sure ... though a lot of the question for the speed aspect is how much is because of the new method (speed is why it was being researched as well as chosen) and how much is political pressure and/or cutting corners?
> 
> How much risk is there in a typically fifteen year method being done in a year or two?
> How much risk is a method that in thirty years has developed a vaccine for animals but covid will be the first human one?
> 
> 
> Cheers


With 30 years on animals, and recent things like SARS, they still didn't get this sorted out.
Now all sorts of companies have developed a vaccine, in less than a year?

Yes technology is better, but it seems kinda fast


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## Eclectic12

Not sure why the mention of SARS when the existing methods had the SAR vaccine candidate looking for funding for Phase Three human trials about twelve years after the last case was reported (about thirteen years after it was started).

IAC ... what I am interest in is the question of whether you see more risk or similar risks in a new technology that has a basis for the faster speed or a more traditional method that somehow is competitive with the newer one?


Cheers


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## Mortgage u/w

MrMatt said:


> H1N1 is a subtype of Influenza A, it's "always" been around.
> 
> FYI, the spanish flu was also a H1N1 virus.
> 
> The issue with COVID19 vaccines is
> 1. They are rushed.
> 2. Many use new technologies and techniques that are not commonly used on humans.
> 3. Huge political pressure to get a vaccine approved.
> 
> Do you want to be the guy at the FDA saying "Mr Trump, I can't approve this yet"?
> 
> There are legitimate concerns with using new technologies.
> We don't yet know the long term side effects of these vaccines.


I believe that the vaccine was created a long time ago, contrary what they let us believe. COVID is a SARS virus so its not all that new.
The media likes to dramatize everything to sell a story. Nobody likes to hear the truth backed by facts so everyone is up in arms about the safety of vaccines.

What took so long is in fact the testing to determine the long term effect. 

A politician does not approve vaccines. The FDA, WHO, etc, does. If they say its safe, I believe them.


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## MrMatt

Mortgage u/w said:


> I believe that the vaccine was created a long time ago, contrary what they let us believe. COVID is a SARS virus so its not all that new.
> The media likes to dramatize everything to sell a story. Nobody likes to hear the truth backed by facts so everyone is up in arms about the safety of vaccines.
> 
> What took so long is in fact the testing to determine the long term effect.
> 
> A politician does not approve vaccines. The FDA, WHO, etc, does. If they say its safe, I believe them.


You "trust" the same groups that say travel restrictions and masks don't work?

These groups are run by politicians and answerable to politicians. I know people who work in those types of organizations, they're incredibly political.


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## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> You "trust" the same groups that say travel restrictions and masks don't work?


I don't remember the FDA saying those things???


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## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> I don't remember the FDA saying those things???


Dr Tam, our "expert" in infectious diesease said these things.




__





Chief Public Health Officer of Canada - Canada.ca


Dr. Theresa Tam was named Canada’s Chief Public Health Officer on June 26, 2017.




www.canada.ca





Yes, when we have liars running the show, I'm concerned about political pressure on the organization.


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## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Dr Tam, our "expert" in infectious diesease said these things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chief Public Health Officer of Canada - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> Dr. Theresa Tam was named Canada’s Chief Public Health Officer on June 26, 2017.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canada.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, when we have liars running the show, I'm concerned about political pressure on the organization.


Are they indeed liars as you say or just putting out the message people need at that time? There is always going to be a balance between safety, public acceptance and many other factors.

As to the vaccine, you can decide to take it or not ... your choice.


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## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Are they indeed liars as you say or just putting out the message people need at that time? There is always going to be a balance between safety, public acceptance and many other factors.
> 
> As to the vaccine, you can decide to take it or not ... your choice.


Sorry, people in positions of authority who said things that they knew were not true, potentially putting lives at risk.
Maybe that was "the message people needed to hear", that just makes them justified liars.
If they can lie about something as simple and obvious as travel restrictions, what else are they willing to lie about.
That's the thing with integrity.

I will likely take one of the vaccines, but I am concerned that there will be political pressure to rush them, and silence critics.
There will be some crazy anti-vaxxers, but there will also be some people with legitimate concerns, and I expect that the government and big tech will try to squash messages they don't like.


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## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Sorry, people in positions of authority who said things that they knew were not true, potentially putting lives at risk.
> Maybe that was "the message people needed to hear", that just makes them justified liars.
> If they can lie about something as simple and obvious as travel restrictions, what else are they willing to lie about.
> That's the thing with integrity.


It all has to be taken in context. You may call them liars and honestly without a point form list, timeline and exact context I can't really say for myself. Maybe travel restrictions didn't come in fast enough for you, does that make them liars? Some travel is still currently allowed so what does that mean?

They will be putting peoples lives at risk with pretty much anything they do won't they? Lock people down, saves on covid cases but causes other problems and people will complain about that. There is no win-win situation only a balance of try to lose less.



MrMatt said:


> I will likely take one of the vaccines, but I am concerned that there will be political pressure to rush them, and silence critics.
> There will be some crazy anti-vaxxers, but there will also be some people with legitimate concerns, and I expect that the government and big tech will try to squash messages they don't like.


Concerns are good, nobody should go blindly into it BUT since the science behind these vaccines are so complicated you'll either have to wait for results or trust someone right?


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## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> It all has to be taken in context. You may call them liars and honestly without a point form list, timeline and exact context I can't really say for myself. Maybe travel restrictions didn't come in fast enough for you, does that make them liars? Some travel is still currently allowed so what does that mean?
> 
> They will be putting peoples lives at risk with pretty much anything they do won't they? Lock people down, saves on covid cases but causes other problems and people will complain about that. There is no win-win situation only a balance of try to lose less.
> 
> 
> Concerns are good, nobody should go blindly into it BUT since the science behind these vaccines are so complicated you'll either have to wait for results or trust someone right?


"Tam said that a travel ban is not an evidence-backed way to stop the spread of COVID-19" << she said that in March. She is supposed to be an expert, she's the one "advising" the PM.
At the time she said that, it was a known falsehood.

I could accept "we do not think a travel ban is warranted at this time".
But to say that a travel ban doesn't stop the spread of a communicable disease is ridiculous on its face.

Again, I am FOR reasonable trade off between restrictions and activity.
But we need an honest conversation here.

I'm for vaccinations.
However I have concerns about the integrity of the process, because the people in charge have demonstrated they themselves lack integrity.

Question for you, if Trump pronounced a treatment safe, and some appointed lackey from the CDC said it was safe, would you automatically accept it, or would you question it?
That's it, the leaders of our countries are showing blatant disregard for the truth and democratic principles & institutions, and they've been caught lying again and again. I don't trust them.


When peoples lives are at risk, with things they can't possibly understand it is essential that they have trust in the experts and leadership. Our experts and leaders have repeatedly lied to us, which I find troubling.


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## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> "Tam said that a travel ban is not an evidence-backed way to stop the spread of COVID-19" << she said that in March. She is supposed to be an expert, she's the one "advising" the PM.
> At the time she said that, it was a known falsehood.


I tried to find the actual video/press release where Dr Tam said the above. Found a few links "stating" Tam said it but not the source ... did you have a link to the source?



MrMatt said:


> I'm for vaccinations.
> However I have concerns about the integrity of the process, because the people in charge have demonstrated they themselves lack integrity.
> 
> Question for you, if Trump pronounced a treatment safe, and some appointed lackey from the CDC said it was safe, would you automatically accept it, or would you question it?
> That's it, the leaders of our countries are showing blatant disregard for the truth and democratic principles & institutions, and they've been caught lying again and again. I don't trust them.
> 
> 
> When peoples lives are at risk, with things they can't possibly understand it is essential that they have trust in the experts and leadership. Our experts and leaders have repeatedly lied to us, which I find troubling.


Understood, you should question these things. I personally will not be in the first line up for a vaccine but my lifestyle is pretty low risk even before the pandemic. I don't even know which vaccine would be available to me so no research needed yet ... it's pointless right now.


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## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> I tried to find the actual video/press release where Dr Tam said the above. Found a few links "stating" Tam said it but not the source ... did you have a link to the source?
> 
> 
> Understood, you should question these things. I personally will not be in the first line up for a vaccine but my lifestyle is pretty low risk even before the pandemic. I don't even know which vaccine would be available to me so no research needed yet ... it's pointless right now.


I only have the quotes from the government endorsed and sponsored media, sorry.


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## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> I only have the quotes from the government endorsed and sponsored media, sorry.


I guess you shouldn't use that as a direct message from Dr. Tam then, seems like a typical misleading media headline. I did find, related to searching for that info, Dr. Tam *actually saying*, essential travel only and to self-isolate on return to Canada.


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## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> I guess you shouldn't use that as a direct message from Dr. Tam then, seems like a typical misleading media headline. I did find, related to searching for that info, Dr. Tam *actually saying*, essential travel only and to self-isolate on return to Canada.


Okay, we all know back in early march Trudeau was against travel bans, and Dr Tam was spreading disinformation.

I'm not going to scour videos to pull up a quote of Dr Tam literally stating the items being reported by all the mainstream media at the time.

Again I'm not saying that they didn't have a good reason to lie to Canadians, but the reality is THEY DID LIE.


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## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Okay, we all know back in early march Trudeau was against travel bans, and Dr Tam was spreading disinformation.
> 
> I'm not going to scour videos to pull up a quote of Dr Tam literally stating the items being reported by all the mainstream media at the time.
> 
> Again I'm not saying that they didn't have a good reason to lie to Canadians, but the reality is THEY DID LIE.


Your call ... I personally don't remember them "lying" but some of their actions/timing did come under question afterwards. If you want to put your trust in media headlines (or their edited interpretations/extrapolations) instead of actual facts it's totally up to you. This is the reason I watch the actual videos and news releases directly from the government instead of the mainstream media.


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## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Your call ... I personally don't remember them "lying" but some of their actions/timing did come under question afterwards. If you want to put your trust in media headlines (or their edited interpretations/extrapolations) instead of actual facts it's totally up to you. This is the reason I watch the actual videos and news releases directly from the government instead of the mainstream media.


I agree with you on that.
But I recall reading/seeing "them" state that there was no reason for travel restrictions or masks for the general public.

I recall it quite well, becasue Mr Trudeau insisted it was racist to call for them. Despite the fact that race has nothing to do with travel restrictions.


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## bgc_fan

Quite frankly, there's a lot of nuance missing here. 
The issue about the travel restrictions were simple: if you weren't going to completely stop *all* incoming traffic, they are useless, and probably what the resistance against closing the borders. The problem is that people were just pushing for travel restrictions from only from China, which can be easily worked around by connecting through other countries. It wouldn't do anything when you consider that a lot of the foreign infections were people coming back home from the US. 








Footprints of the coronavirus: How it came to Canada and went around the world - Macleans.ca


Terry Glavin: Genome samples reveal the pathogen’s deadly journey, and unlike the leaders of certain global superpowers, the science doesn’t lie.




www.macleans.ca


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## Money172375

I remember getting the H1N1 vaccine with my 4 or 5 years old son....waiting outside in the cold for a couple of hours, then led into a large gymnasium. Nobody wearing masks, social distancing didn’t exist. Felt like I was in a Hollywood movie.

i cant wait to see this rollout. How do you vaccinate millions “quickly” when you can’t gather in large groups? How will people Prove they are high risk (cancer patients) or front-line workers? Pre-registration/screening? 

My last two flu shots were less than perfect. 5,10,15 minute delays for each shot to confirm, verify, correct errors etc etc....will lead to a very slow process.


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## sags

Just getting the vaccines and transporting them safely is going to be a logistical nightmare.

The military is starting from scratch. Everything is "imaginary" at this point. They have to create real life from the imaginary.

From properly equiipped transportation to warehouse storage and end point distribution.........it is going to be a huge enterprise.

I am confident the military can do it, but it is going to take a lot more time than I think people are hoping.

On Friday, Chrystia Freeland gave indications the government is committed to future financial supports if necessary.

Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.


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## Beaver101

usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/12/09/british-grandfather-martin-kenyon-cnn-interview-gets-covid-vaccine/6504955002/

^ I like his blunt response.


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## bgc_fan

Looks like the Pfizer vaccine isn't approved for those younger than 16. Pfizer’s coronavirus vaccine is not approved for Canadians under 16. Here’s why

Unfortunately, there's going to be a lack of data regarding any long-term effects of the vaccine on kids, particularly with a novel type of vaccine, so it looks like Health Canada is playing it safe.


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## Ukrainiandude

I am personally not in the risk group, therefore I won’t be taking it immediately – probably not for at least the coming year, I think We have to wait and see whether it really works.


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## james4beach

Amazing. Thousands of doses will be arriving in some provinces _next week ... _incredible speed. All of this is unfolding much faster than all experts predicted and I don't think a vaccine for a new disease has ever been rolled out this fast before.

I listened to Bonnie Henry's update on the radio today and she sounded like she was in a great mood.


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## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Amazing. Thousands of doses will be arriving in some provinces _next week ... _incredible speed. All of this is unfolding much faster than all experts predicted and I don't think a vaccine for a new disease has ever been rolled out this fast before.
> 
> I listened to Bonnie Henry's update on the radio today and she sounded like she was in a great mood.


I think we all agree on that.
Which is why people have concerns if corners were cut.

How much is at stake? Are we SURE it's safe?
What are the long term effects?


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## sags

I heard on CBC that the Pfizer vaccine has to be routed through Kentucky and with Trump going on about the vaccine only going to Americans, we will see what happens there.


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## sags

The vaccines have not been fully tested. They are being issued under an Emergency Use designation.

The good news is the side effects and dangers appear to be very limited so far, but only time will tell.

One doctor did say that the Pfizer study had patients "included" and some "excluded" from the study, so we don't really know what happens when the "excluded" group gets the vaccine. People with bad allergies were in the "excluded" group and are having negative symptoms. I believe pregnant women and women lactating were also in the "excluded" group. I don't know who else was part of that group.


----------



## Money172375

sags said:


> The vaccines have not been fully tested. They are being issued under an Emergency Use designation.
> 
> The good news is the side effects and dangers appear to be very limited so far, but only time will tell.
> 
> One doctor did say that the Pfizer study had patients "included" and some "excluded" from the study, so we don't really know what happens when the "excluded" group gets the vaccine. People with bad allergies were in the "excluded" group and are having negative symptoms. I believe pregnant women and women lactating were also in the "excluded" group. I don't know who else was part of that group.


Children.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> I heard on CBC that the Pfizer vaccine has to be routed through Kentucky and with Trump going on about the vaccine only going to Americans, we will see what happens there.


 ...and then what happens to all the contracts that Pfizer has signed on with all the nonMAGA countries?


----------



## bgc_fan

sags said:


> I heard on CBC that the Pfizer vaccine has to be routed through Kentucky and with Trump going on about the vaccine only going to Americans, we will see what happens there.


Considering that Pfizer is using their manufacturing facility in Belgium, there's going to be a supply available. Not sure of its capacity, but in any case, unless Trump wants to use federal agents to stop shipments out of the US manufacturing facilities, I doubt they have much options. Also, I suspect this would be one of those occasions where a multi-national company may rethink their manufacturing locations and start placing them outside of unstable countries like the US.


----------



## sags

Hopefully, Trump is too busy trying to overthrow an election to notice.


----------



## Beaver101

https://www.usnews.com/news/top-new...o-prioritize-its-drivers-for-covid-19-vaccine

Like Uber drivers are more essential than taxi-drivers, politicians, Pfizer employees, hospital workers, other healthcare workers, plus the highest-at risk-population, etc.


----------



## Retired Peasant

bgc_fan said:


> Looks like the Pfizer vaccine isn't approved for those younger than 16. Pfizer’s coronavirus vaccine is not approved for Canadians under 16. Here’s why
> 
> Unfortunately, there's going to be a lack of data regarding any long-term effects of the vaccine on kids, particularly with a novel type of vaccine, so it looks like Health Canada is playing it safe.


As I understand it, the over 80's (maybe 70's) weren't included in the studies either.


----------



## cainvest

Retired Peasant said:


> As I understand it, the over 80's (maybe 70's) weren't included in the studies either.


 41% of global and 45% of U.S. participants are 56-85 years of age 
Pfizer and BioNTech Conclude Phase 3 Study of COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate, Meeting All Primary Efficacy Endpoints | Pfizer


----------



## sags

Dr. Sanjay Gupta said the vaccine causes the immune system to get ready to fight the virus and reduces the severity of the infection, but doesn't kill the virus.

So people who have been vaccinated will still get the infection and transmit the virus to others. The wearing of masks will have to continue for some time.


----------



## Eclectic12

MrMatt said:


> james4beach said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing. Thousands of doses will be arriving in some provinces _next week ... _incredible speed. All of this is unfolding much faster than all experts predicted and I don't think a vaccine for a new disease has ever been rolled out this fast before ...
> 
> 
> 
> I think we all agree on that.
> Which is why people have concerns if corners were cut.
Click to expand...

Sure ... though it's hard to assess without key details or inside information.

Part of the speed is the method/technology versus cutting corners.

One of my co-workers was questioning whether 30K was a big enough number where I mentioned that some of the other vaccine phase three trials indicated 10K participated.




MrMatt said:


> How much is at stake? Are we SURE it's safe?
> What are the long term effects?


Good questions ... though people may not choose to wait to find out in the traditional time line.


Cheers


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

In Canada Covid deaths amount to 2.9% of total cases or .35% of population. Wonder how this compares to those vaccinate? I understand it does not prevent getting infected and that some have gotten sick and even died after being vaccinated so how much good does it do vs possible side effects?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I was looking at this web site about the corona virus, specifically concerning Canada. Canada Coronavirus: 448,841 Cases and 13,251 Deaths - Worldometer

When I compare the 2 graphs of cases vs deaths 2 things jump out. One is, that there were 2 waves of illness one peaked in May, the other is at its height now and may not yet have peaked.

The other is, the number of cases is much higher in the second wave while deaths are lower.
This suggests 2 possibilities. One is that the corona virus is weakening, the other is that today's tests are more sensitive than the ones in use last spring and are turning up more false positives or more mild cases. Or maybe treatment has improved. In any case it appears the danger of dying is much less than would be suggested by the number of cases.


----------



## nathan79

In BC we recently set a record for daily deaths. Didn't the US also set a record recently? It is true, however, that certain areas were harder hit during the first wave, such as Quebec and NYC.

Testing was very limited during the first wave. As I recall, only high risk groups were being tested at first. If a random person wanted to be tested they needed a referral from a doctor. Many of the people getting tested back then were already greviously ill by the time they got tested. Testing has increased exponentially since then, and it's much easier to get tested now. Even people with minor symptoms are able to get tested. This would lead to a lot more positives (also more negatives, as I would assume most of those poeple just have colds, flu, or some other bug -- not COVID).


----------



## cainvest

Rusty O'Toole said:


> The other is, the number of cases is much higher in the second wave while deaths are lower.
> This suggests 2 possibilities. One is that the corona virus is weakening, the other is that today's tests are more sensitive than the ones in use last spring and are turning up more false positives or more mild cases. Or maybe treatment has improved. In any case it appears the danger of dying is much less than would be suggested by the number of cases.


One other senario, the age groups being infected are different. In MB our death rate is higher this wave as it's hit many LTC homes. IIRC this is reverse of some other provinces that had many LTC homes hit in the first wave and are better protected now.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

The point is, the death rate is lower even though number of positives is higher. This suggests the pandemic is not as bad as we are led to believe by the corporate media. And that the virus may be wearing out the way they usually do.


----------



## nathan79

Like I said above, the number of positives are higher because more mild infections being detected through increased testing. This would naturally cause the death rate to appear lower, so one must use caution when looking at the data.


----------



## cainvest

Rusty O'Toole said:


> The point is, the death rate is lower even though number of positives is higher.


If the number of infected in growing the most in the 10-49 age group this will lower the death rate right?



Rusty O'Toole said:


> This suggests the pandemic is not as bad as we are led to believe by the corporate media. And that the virus may be wearing out the way they usually do.


How do you define not as bad ... what was bad then compared to now? And what exactly causes a virus to wear out in your opinion?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I mean not bad compared to the doomsday scenarios painted last March. The lockdowns and other precautions were justified in the face of millions of possible deaths. As it turned out, total deaths are 1/10 or less of what was predicted.
We have been through similar epidemics before, of swine flu, Legionaires disease, Hong Kong flu and I don't know what all. They all seem to wear themselves out and blow over eventually. I'm no expert but I think the viruses mutate so fast that they mutate into a harmless version of themselves and disappear.


----------



## Money172375

Has any province explained how people will be chose for the vaccine? I mean, beyond the obvious LTC, health workers etc.

Once we get past the immediate needs, I assume we’ll go by age/underlying condition.
but what will that look like? Will there be online/telephone appointments? just show up if you’re a certain age? People are lining up for hours (per tonight’s news) to get into a Nike store before lockdown in 2 days. What will the line ups be like when it’s something you REALLY need? 

has your province given any granular details?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Money172375 said:


> Has any province explained how people will be chose for the vaccine? I mean, beyond the obvious LTC, health workers etc.
> 
> Once we get past the immediate needs, I assume we’ll go by age/underlying condition.
> but what will that look like? Will there be online/telephone appointments? just show up if you’re a certain age? People are lining up for hours (per tonight’s news) to get into a Nike store before lockdown in 2 days. What will the line ups be like when it’s something you REALLY need?
> 
> has your province given any granular details?


 I am not in the risk group, for what I care, you and any others concerned can have all the vaccine they need/want. Thanks.


----------



## cainvest

Money172375 said:


> Has any province explained how people will be chose for the vaccine? I mean, beyond the obvious LTC, health workers etc.


For general public you've got a long time to wait so you'll likely get an answer in 3-5 months.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

If reliable immunity after vaccines only lasting between three and six months. It would make sense to get vaccinated in September October, not during late winter or spring, as there will be a natural decrease in transmission and cases over the summer.


----------



## fstamand

I read that a new type of strand was found in the UK. Starting to wonder how much time before this new "vaccine" becomes obsolete.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> If reliable immunity after vaccines only lasting between three and six months. It would make sense to get vaccinated in September October, not during late winter or spring, as there will be a natural decrease in transmission and cases over the summer.


what "natural decrease in transmission and cases over the summer"

If it only lasts 3 months, it makes sense to get vaccinated every 3 months.


----------



## james4beach

fstamand said:


> I read that a new type of strand was found in the UK. Starting to wonder how much time before this new "vaccine" becomes obsolete.


A relevant article









COVID-19 Will Mutate — What That Means for a Vaccine


The new coronavirus has already mutated a handful of times, which has many people wondering whether the mutations could lead to a more severe, deadlier disease. But the new mutations are extremely similar to the original virus and don’t seem to be any more aggressive.




www.healthline.com


----------



## james4beach

I still get emails from the US doctor offices I used to go. Partly out of curiosity for what's going on down south (the two clinics I went to were excellent).

Today I got an email saying that they expect vaccines for patients in the general public to start in spring 2021. The first priority will be those 65 and older or people with medical conditions, so that means general public that's younger and healthier is looking at *after spring 2021*, at least at this one particular US clinic.

It sounds to me like Canadian and US vaccinations will be happening at roughly the same time. Wouldn't be surprising for the US to get them a bit earlier. Every year with influenza vaccinations, they are available in the US in September but only arrive in Canadian provinces around mid to late October. So even with influenza, the US is usually 1-2 months ahead of us.

Personally, I really like the way the COVID vaccination story is going. This has been nothing but good news lately and everyone should be happy about it. As I've said in the past, the pandemic is basically over on a forward-looking basis.


----------



## bgc_fan

While things seem to be going well in Canada as far as distribution is concerned, the US are having issues... basically states are getting less their projected allotments, while Pfizer is saying that they have produced the doses requested, but the federal government is somehow not connecting the dots:








Maine to get 40% less vaccine than expected for next week


The Maine CDC was informed by Operation Warp Speed on Thursday that it will receive 8,775 doses of Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine, not the 13,650 doses the state had been expecting.




www.pressherald.com












As Ga. hospitals begin vaccinations, state learns it will get fewer doses


Georgia hospitals from Atlanta to Albany to Gainesville to Conyers finally began long-awaited vaccinations of their own workers Thursday, and a second vaccine candidate won an important endorsement. But as sparks of hope appeared, the state also faced new challenges in battling the pandemic and...




www.ajc.com












'This is unacceptable': Wisconsin receives nearly 15K fewer doses of COVID-19 vaccine than expected


Gov. Tony Evers and state health officials are asking the federal government allocate more doses of Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine after finding out the state will receive nearly 15,000 fewer doses than initially expected.




www.channel3000.com





From one of the articles:
_The federal officials managing the distribution traded excuses with Pfizer, which insisted to the Washington Post that the vaccines were sitting ready for distribution as soon as the U.S. paperwork arrived. A spokesperson for the federal response told the AJC that there were no reductions because the only official allocation amounts were the ones given this week._

So, on one hand you have Pfizer saying that the vaccine is essentially ready for shipment. And on the other hand the federal government is saying that they already distributed what they were supposed to, but less than what was promised. Sounds like the federal government hasn't gotten its act together, and complaining about not getting enough doses.


----------



## sags

The FDA is investigating adverse reactions to the vaccines that they didn't expect.

_Marks said the FDA was not certain what caused the reactions but indicated a chemical called polyethylene glycol, which is present in the vaccines produced by Pfizer and BioNTech as well as by Moderna “could be the culprit.” *He added that the reaction some people have experienced could be more common than once thought. *_

One Chicago hospital ceased the vaccinations after 4 employees suffered adverse reactions to the vaccine.









Vaccinations at Chicago-area hospital to resume after 4 workers experience adverse reactions


A north suburban hospital is temporarily pausing coronavirus vaccinations after four workers reported feeling adverse reactions.




www.fox32chicago.com


----------



## sags

I read somewhere that vaccine injection sites should keep this drug ready for use.

*Epinephrine* is the drug form of a hormone (adrenaline) that the body produces on its own. It helps to reverse symptoms of an allergic reaction by: Opening the airways. Improving blood pressure. Accelerating heart rate.

So far there isn't any indication of any deaths related to injection of the vaccine.......so that is good so far.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> The FDA is investigating adverse reactions to the vaccines that they didn't expect.
> 
> _Marks said the FDA was not certain what caused the reactions but indicated a chemical called polyethylene glycol, which is present in the vaccines produced by Pfizer and BioNTech as well as by Moderna “could be the culprit.” *He added that the reaction some people have experienced could be more common than once thought. *_
> 
> One Chicago hospital ceased the vaccinations after 4 employees suffered adverse reactions to the vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccinations at Chicago-area hospital to resume after 4 workers experience adverse reactions
> 
> 
> A north suburban hospital is temporarily pausing coronavirus vaccinations after four workers reported feeling adverse reactions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox32chicago.com


Couldn't this be almost explained by apprehension towards vaccination.



> Their symptoms included tingling and elevated heartrates, the hospital said in a statement.


I mean I have had tingling and elevated heartrates before. I call that Tuesday. Of course I cannot say what these people actually experienced but I suspect it is probably normal. Anyway, it is another reason why I am glad to let these people jump in front of me in the vaccination line.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Anyway, it is another reason why I am glad to let these people jump in front of me in the vaccination line.


You'll have lots of short term data to review the effects over the next few months. Remember this is only the first of two shots so we have to wait till everyone gets their full dose to measure short term reactions. After that, for the months following, we'll also have to see how many vaccinated get infected.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> You'll have lots of short term data to review the effects over the next few months. Remember this is only the first of two shots so we have to wait till everyone gets their full dose to measure short term reactions. After that, for the months following, we'll also have to see how many vaccinated get infected.


and you couldn't get better guinea pigs then the elderly people with frail health inside of nursing homes. I would really like to think that if they can handle it, I can. It will be an embarrassing moment for me, if I am wrong.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> and you couldn't get better guinea pigs then the elderly people with frail health inside of nursing homes. I would really like to think that if they can handle it, I can. It will be an embarrassing moment for me, if I am wrong.


That's one way to look at it, "guinea pigs", if you have little trust in Health Canada or other medical advice. I do think overall they are acting in the best interest of people but history might indeed tell a different story. Honestly, if I was older and in a nursing home (and still wanted to live) I'd be happy to get the vaccine first with such a high risk of dying from covid.


----------



## sags

Some of it could be anxiety or panic. Our own adult son has fainted at the sight of a needle, but oddly never had that as a child.

He just works himself up into a huge panic and anxiety attack for no logical reason.

He works in construction and played sports and injuries never phased him, but today..........one peek at a needle and his knees go wobbly.

Some of the "patients" were nursing and healthcare workers though, and one would think they wouldn't be panicked about a shot in the arm.


----------



## sags

Reports are that the new coronavirus spreading in the UK is much more contagious than the COVID. 

The UK has locked down some areas where it is spreading rapidly.

It is hoped the vaccines work on this virus as well. Otherwise........we are going to have a big problem.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> That's one way to look at it, "guinea pigs", if you have little trust in Health Canada or other medical advice. I do think overall they are acting in the best interest of people but history might indeed tell a different story. Honestly, if I was older and in a nursing home (and still wanted to live) I'd be happy to get the vaccine first with such a high risk of dying from covid.


I am not saying they were meant to be guinea pigs. Since they are the most vulnerable to Covid-19 we have very little choice but to vaccinate them first. That said, they still make good test subjects.


----------



## cainvest

sags said:


> Reports are that the new coronavirus spreading in the UK is much more contagious than the COVID.


No, there currently is no "more contagious" covid in the UK. Please read beyond the "headline news" designed just to grab your attention.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> Some of it could be anxiety or panic. Our own adult son has fainted at the sight of a needle, but oddly never had that as a child.
> 
> He just works himself up into a huge panic and anxiety attack for no logical reason.
> 
> He works in construction and played sports and injuries never phased him, but today..........one peek at a needle and his knees go wobbly.
> 
> Some of the "patients" were nursing and healthcare workers though, and one would think they wouldn't be panicked about a shot in the arm.


I had a grown adult rip a disability insurance application right out of my hands when I informed him of a standard blood test requirement by the insurance company in order to obtain the protection he wanted. I'll never forget the fear in his eyes. I had never seen it before in an adult but I have heard later there is a large number of them out there.

I know, with almost total certainty, that this particular person is not going to get vaccinated.


----------



## sags

cainvest said:


> No, there currently is no "more contagious" covid in the UK. Please read beyond the "headline news" designed just to grab your attention.


So these stories are fake news ?

_"The spread is being driven by the new variant of the virus," Johnson said in a hastily called press conference. "It appears to spread more easily and may be up to 70% more transmissable than the earlier strain." _









Boris Johnson backtracks on relaxing Christmas rules after scientists warn new Covid-19 variant is spreading faster


The hopes of millions of Britons that Covid-19 restrictions would be eased over Christmas were dashed on Saturday, after scientists warned a new variant of the virus is spreading more quickly than others.




www.cnn.com













Mutant Covid strain behind South East outbreak is '70% more contagious'


THE new Covid-19 variant that has ripped through the South East is 70 per cent more contagious than the original strain, Boris Johnson revealed today. The PM today revealed the “frighteningly…




www.thesun.co.uk


----------



## cainvest

sags said:


> So these stories are fake news ?
> 
> _"The spread is being driven by the new variant of the virus," Johnson said in a hastily called press conference. "It appears to spread more easily and may be up to 70% more transmissable than the earlier strain." _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boris Johnson backtracks on relaxing Christmas rules after scientists warn new Covid-19 variant is spreading faster
> 
> 
> The hopes of millions of Britons that Covid-19 restrictions would be eased over Christmas were dashed on Saturday, after scientists warned a new variant of the virus is spreading more quickly than others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mutant Covid strain behind South East outbreak is '70% more contagious'
> 
> 
> THE new Covid-19 variant that has ripped through the South East is 70 per cent more contagious than the original strain, Boris Johnson revealed today. The PM today revealed the “frighteningly…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thesun.co.uk


I'll let you determine if it's fake or misleading ... dig a little deeper into the news releases. 

Took me about 4 minutes to uncover what the health officials "actually said" about the new strain.


----------



## sags

........breaking news and moving to new thread.


----------



## james4beach

Another update from the US clinic that I used to go to. They emailed everyone today to say that they *will not* have the vaccine available for the general public for the foreseeable future. They don't know when they will get it, and aren't making any promises.

I'm sharing this to point out that the vaccines are not so widely available in the US. Currently they are focusing on healthcare workers and very high risk seniors... but the general public will have to wait a while.


----------



## sags

They aren't widely available here either James.

My wife was told the retirement home is only getting enough vaccines for 15% of the workforce.

If they are rationing it like that in every home, they are wasting the vaccine. There is no protection when 85% of the workforce isn't vaccinated.

They should fully vaccinate as many homes as possible and the others will have to wait. At least that would render some homes safer.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> They aren't widely available here either James.
> 
> My wife was told the retirement home is only getting enough vaccines for 15% of the workforce.
> 
> If they are rationing it like that in every home, they are wasting the vaccine. There is no protection when 85% of the workforce isn't vaccinated.
> 
> They should fully vaccinate as many homes as possible and the others will have to wait. At least that would render some homes safer.


Actually if they vaccinate 15% of the workforce they protect 15% of the workforce.

How is it a waste to vaccinate people?

Do you realize that the health care system is overloaded? We are desperately short of caregivers.
We need to keep them safe.


----------



## sags

Because the 15% of the workforce in a home aren't the only ones interacting with residents. The other 85% of the workforce are as well.

The workforce rotates and changes every day, includes part time employees coming and going.

Some of the 15% vaccinated will not be at work on any given day, so the number of "on the job" people vaccinated would be less than 15%.

They should vaccinate an entire home and then move on to the next one. Sprinkling a little vaccine here and a little there.......isn't a viable plan.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> Because the 15% of the workforce in a home aren't the only ones interacting with residents. The other 85% of the workforce are as well.
> 
> The workforce rotates and changes every day, includes part time employees coming and going.
> 
> Some of the 15% vaccinated will not be at work on any given day, so the number of "on the job" people vaccinated would be less than 15%.
> 
> They should vaccinate an entire home and then move on to the next one. Sprinkling a little vaccine here and a little there.......isn't a viable plan.


I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here. I would say that by vaccinating 15% of a home you would get a little more then 15% benefit in reduced infections since those immune people cannot help but get in the way of the infection of another.

If you vaccinate 100% of a home you really only get 100% benefit. Nothing extra.

All that said, 15% is such a low number these differences are probably not overly visible so I would be happy to end the debate with the flip of a coin.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Because the 15% of the workforce in a home aren't the only ones interacting with residents. The other 85% of the workforce are as well.
> 
> The workforce rotates and changes every day, includes part time employees coming and going.
> 
> Some of the 15% vaccinated will not be at work on any given day, so the number of "on the job" people vaccinated would be less than 15%.
> 
> They should vaccinate an entire home and then move on to the next one. Sprinkling a little vaccine here and a little there.......isn't a viable plan.


Ahh, so those in the politically connected homes will get protected, while the rest of us wait?

Sorry, I want the vaccines to go to care providers, starting with the most at risk ones.
If we run out of care providers, the whole system will fall apart.


Also you clearly don't understand math.

If 15% of the workforce is vaccinated then approximately 15% of the workforce at any one time.
Maybe it will be 0% for one shift and 30% for another.

The only way they're always be below 15% working is if they chose to vaccinate the staff who work the least hours.


----------



## cainvest

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-approves-moderna-vaccine-1.5852848


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> Ahh, so those in the politically connected homes will get protected, while the rest of us wait?
> 
> Sorry, I want the vaccines to go to care providers, starting with the most at risk ones.
> If we run out of care providers, the whole system will fall apart.
> 
> 
> Also you clearly don't understand math.
> 
> If 15% of the workforce is vaccinated then approximately 15% of the workforce at any one time.
> Maybe it will be 0% for one shift and 30% for another.
> 
> The only way they're always be below 15% working is if they chose to vaccinate the staff who work the least hours.


That makes no sense.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> That makes no sense.


Rather than a risk based allocation of vaccines, you want the government to pick their favorite sites and offer them 100% vaccines.

Sorry, we need a fair, science based approach.


----------



## Beaver101

Moved the newspiece here:

A top Russian diplomat was caught secretly getting the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine, shunning his country's prized Sputnik V


----------



## james4beach

I'm not sure if anyone posted this. The J&J vaccine is good news overall, and Canada is able to get up to 38 million doses of this.

J&J Vaccine Provides Strong Shield Against Severe Covid

This is a different technology that Moderna and Pfizer's MRNA vaccines. I think it's good to see a variety of techniques out there. This vaccine only requires a single shot.

What's also great is that this was a very large global trial of 43,000 people. Though it only prevented 66% of moderate to severe cases, I think the more important stat might be that it *prevented 100% of hospitalizations or deaths*.

So although people on the J&J vaccine still might catch covid, and have a rough illness, apparently the disease was prevented from getting bad enough to land people in hospital. I think this is awesome!

It also seems that J&J tried harder to include all ages (wider mix of people) in their Phase 3 trials. Again, this is really good.

Worth celebrating I think. There are 3 solid vaccines now (Moderna, Pfizer, JNJ) with some variety of technologies. I'm very happy about this.


----------



## doctrine

Novavax is another vaccine that is showing up to 89% efficacy. Canada has also ordered something like 10 million doses of this one. If you add Novavax and Astrazeneca, you have 5 effective vaccines that will likely be approved in most developed countries in the next month or two. J&J, Astrazeneca, and Pfizer alone are likely to have enough this year to vaccinate half of the world's population on their own. 

It is almost certain that every vulnerable population in every developed country should be vaccinated by mid to late spring, including even Canada. That will be really the beginning of the end. It's already starting in some places; Israel has passed 50% of the population with at least 1 dose. And the US is vaccinating over 1.5 million people a day. Very exciting. Enjoy what may be your last lockdown.


----------



## Beaver101

> *It is almost certain that every vulnerable population in every developed country should be vaccinated by mid to late spring, including even Canada. That will be really the beginning of the end.* It's already starting in some places; Israel has passed 50% of the population with at least 1 dose. And the US is vaccinating over 1.5 million people a day. Very exciting. *Enjoy what may be your last lockdown.*


 ... hope Canada can stick to the original announced timeline of fall of 2021 (aka end of September) where just about everyone in the country gets vaccinated. But very doubtful of this when the goalposts get reset with each amazing vaccine shortage. 

Meanwhile new variants keep springing up ... for all we know, lockdowns might go into 2022.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> I'm not sure if anyone posted this. The J&J vaccine is good news overall, and Canada is able to get up to 38 million doses of this.
> 
> J&J Vaccine Provides Strong Shield Against Severe Covid
> 
> This is a different technology that Moderna and Pfizer's MRNA vaccines. I think it's good to see a variety of techniques out there. This vaccine only requires a single shot.
> 
> What's also great is that this was a very large global trial of 43,000 people. Though it only prevented 66% of moderate to severe cases, I think the more important stat might be that it *prevented 100% of hospitalizations or deaths*.
> 
> So although people on the J&J vaccine still might catch covid, and have a rough illness, apparently the disease was prevented from getting bad enough to land people in hospital. I think this is awesome!
> 
> It also seems that J&J tried harder to include all ages (wider mix of people) in their Phase 3 trials. Again, this is really good.
> 
> Worth celebrating I think. There are 3 solid vaccines now (Moderna, Pfizer, JNJ) with some variety of technologies. I'm very happy about this.


I hope Canada organizes the 2 dose vaccines for the older generations (>age 60) and healthcare/PSW workers and pre-existing conditions and a 1 dose vaccine for everyone else. This would speed things up considerably and protect everyone in the unique way each group requires it.

It is my opinion that the efficacy of all these vaccines are pretty close to the same. The main difference is that if you take a single dose vaccine and give it to a person twice (about a month apart) they would have the same efficacy as the vaccines where you are directed to do exactly that. Therefore the advertised efficacies are not really using a fair comparison.

The benefits of the 2 dose is that it speeds up a persons immune system a little faster. For the older generations and anyone helping the sick, this is critical. For the rest of us, most don't probably need the vaccine at all and the others a single dose will do all they need. If a single dose candidate comes in contact with a higher dose of the virus, they may feel a little crappy for a day and after that they will have the same immune system as they would have had with the double dose, and most importantly will be alive to see it happen. Just my opinion, of course.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I'm not sure if anyone posted this. The J&J vaccine is good news overall, and Canada is able to get up to 38 million doses of this.
> 
> J&J Vaccine Provides Strong Shield Against Severe Covid
> 
> This is a different technology that Moderna and Pfizer's MRNA vaccines. I think it's good to see a variety of techniques out there. This vaccine only requires a single shot.
> 
> What's also great is that this was a very large global trial of 43,000 people. Though it only prevented 66% of moderate to severe cases, I think the more important stat might be that it *prevented 100% of hospitalizations or deaths*.
> 
> So although people on the J&J vaccine still might catch covid, and have a rough illness, apparently the disease was prevented from getting bad enough to land people in hospital. I think this is awesome!
> 
> It also seems that J&J tried harder to include all ages (wider mix of people) in their Phase 3 trials. Again, this is really good.
> 
> Worth celebrating I think. There are 3 solid vaccines now (Moderna, Pfizer, JNJ) with some variety of technologies. I'm very happy about this.


Good, we need a childrens vaccine.

Also I'm long JNJ.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> Good, we need a childrens vaccine.
> 
> Also I'm long JNJ.



Was this vaccine trialed for children under 16? I did not see that.


----------



## Money172375

As fas as I understand, vaccinating children is not that important. They rarely have serious symptoms. And it appears that anyone who is vaccinated can still spread the virus. So vaccinating them appears not very beneficial. Perhaps it’s something that everyone gets when they turn 16.....along with their required tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis booster.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Was this vaccine trialed for children under 16? I did not see that.











J&J plans to test its COVID-19 vaccine in ages 12-18 soon


Johnson & Johnson plans to start testing its experimental COVID-19 vaccine in youths aged 12 to 18 as soon as possible, and the company's previous experience with the same technology in a vaccine successfully used in children could give it a leg up with regulators.




www.reuters.com





Hopefully someone gets off their butts and gets younger kids too.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Money172375 said:


> As fas as I understand, vaccinating children is not that important. They rarely have serious symptoms. And it appears that anyone who is vaccinated can still spread the virus. So vaccinating them appears not very beneficial. Perhaps it’s something that everyone gets when they turn 16.....along with their required tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis booster.


I know that and you know that but there may be a few parents out there that might see things a little differently and it would be nice to have something to pacify their fears. Kids can bring out a lot of irrationality in a mother or father.

Other then that cosmetic reason above, I agree. I don't even think the little rascals transfer all that much virus either. I mean they pretty much have to spit a foot or more in an upward direction to get most of their viral particles in the face of anyone who might receive harm from them. Plus, as I have stated many times before, a person who does not get very sick will be significantly less infectious then someone who does, if for the only reason being they maintain their viral loads for so much less time then the person who is getting very sick. That analogy works for vaccinated adults as well, for anyone concerned about them transmitting the virus after vaccination. It won't be a very big deal.

In any event, I doubt not having a vaccine for children is going to put any kind of delay in the ending of this pandemic.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> I know that and you know that but there may be a few parents out there that might see things a little differently and it would be nice to have something to pacify their fears. Kids can bring out a lot of irrationality in a mother or father.
> 
> Other then that cosmetic reason above, I agree. I don't even think the little rascals transfer all that much virus either. I mean they pretty much have to spit a foot or more in an upward direction to get most of their viral particles in the face of anyone who might receive harm from them. Plus, as I have stated many times before, a person who does not get very sick will be significantly less infectious then someone who does, if for the only reason being they maintain their viral loads for so much less time then the person who is getting very sick. That analogy works for vaccinated adults as well, for anyone concerned about them transmitting the virus after vaccination. It won't be a very big deal.
> 
> In any event, I doubt not having a vaccine for children is going to put any kind of delay in the ending of this pandemic.


While COVID19 is very lethal for the elderly, it has killed a few kids and teens that have gotten it.

Since people don't care about kids, they'll likely claim that everyone is vaccinated and we can move on, even when a substantial portion of the country is susceptible.

Personally I care more about the health of kids, but that's because I want to ensure there is a PSW when I hit the home.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> While COVID19 is very lethal for the elderly, it has killed a few kids and teens that have gotten it.
> 
> Since people don't care about kids, they'll likely claim that everyone is vaccinated and we can move on, even when a substantial portion of the country is susceptible.
> 
> Personally I care more about the health of kids, but that's because I want to ensure there is a PSW when I hit the home.


Seriously. You think these thoughts are because people don't care about kids. Come on!

There will always be a few exceptions but death compared to their infections and/or their share of the population are not even big enough to become a rounding error. 

I think we can safely say kids really don't need the vaccine and if the higher infectious adults are vaccinated, the safety to children can't help but increase.

I must thank you, however, because you did make my point about how irrational a person can get when it comes to children and because of that, it would be nice to have a child vaccine.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Seriously. You think these thoughts are because people don't care about kids. Come on!


Yes, I do.

Trudeau said he expects all Canadians to be vaccinated by the fall, and currently has no plan to vaccinate kids.

Logically he doesn't consider kids Canadians, or he simply forgot about 5+ million of the people he's supposed to represent.

Either case suggests that he's not thinking of them when he's talking about "every Canadian". 
Since nobody in power is correcting this, I assume they don't care either.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Logically he doesn't consider kids Canadians, or he simply forgot about 5+ million of the people he's supposed to represent.


Nothing logical about your statement that I can see.

First off, there are no vaccines available for people under 16. Secondly, kids are the least affected by covid and percentage wise, may even suffer more from possible vaccine side effects than from actually getting covid.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Nothing logical about your statement that I can see.
> 
> First off, there are no vaccines available for people under 16. Secondly, kids are the least affected by covid and percentage wise, may even suffer more from possible vaccine side effects than from actually getting covid.


Okay, when you say "All Canadians will be vaccinated", but there are 5 million Canadians who won't be vaccinated there is a logical contradiction there.
Either those 5 million will be vaccinated (despite it not appearing possible at this time)
Or you don't consider those 5 million people Canadians.

Please explain how you can say "All Canadians", when you know a large group won't be included.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Okay, when you say "All Canadians will be vaccinated", but there are 5 million Canadians who won't be vaccinated there is a logical contradiction there.


Simple .... for you there is no contradiction as you know a vaccine is not available for kids. Furthermore, you draw wild assumptions after knowing they currently can't be vaccinated like "Logically he doesn't consider kids Canadians". No logic in that either.


----------



## andrewf

A study indicates that two COVID-19 vaccines are only 50% effective against the South African variant of the virus. So, it seems we will need to continue developing booster shots/variations on the vaccine to contain these viral variants. It could be that eventually, humanity is saddled with another seasonal virus like influenza that requires new vaccines each year. 









Fresh data show toll South African virus variant takes on vaccine efficacy


Clinical trial data on two COVID-19 vaccines show that a coronavirus variant first identified in South Africa is lessening their ability to protect against the illness, underscoring the need to vaccinate vast numbers of people as quickly as possible, scientists said.




www.reuters.com







> The vaccines from Novavax Inc and Johnson & Johnson were welcomed as important future weapons in curbing deaths and hospitalizations in a pandemic that has infected more than 101 million people and claimed over 2 million lives worldwide.
> 
> But they were significantly less effective at preventing COVID-19 in trial participants in South Africa, where the potent new variant is widespread, compared with countries in which this mutation is still rare, according to preliminary data released by the companies.
> 
> “Clearly, the mutants have a diminishing effect on the efficacy of the vaccines,” Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease, said in a briefing. “We can see that we are going to be challenged.”
> 
> Novavax reported midstage trial results on Thursday that showed its vaccine was 50% effective overall at preventing COVID-19 among people in South Africa.
> 
> That compared with late-stage results from the United Kingdom, in which the vaccine was up to 89.3% effective at preventing COVID-19.
> 
> 
> On Friday, J&J said a single shot of its coronavirus vaccine was 66% effective overall in a massive trial across three continents.
> 
> But there were wide differences by region. In the United States, where the South African variant was first reported this week, efficacy reached 72%, compared with just 57% in South Africa, where the new variant, known as B 1.351, made up 95% of the COVID-19 cases reported in the trial.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> As fas as I understand, vaccinating children is not that important. They rarely have serious symptoms


I realize this is just one data point, but my cousin and spouse both had COVID (they are 35 and 37), quite serious where the father ended up hospitalized with pneumonia. [ _just a quick reminder, you don't want COVID, even if you're in your 30s_ ]

The mother, while sick with COVID, continued to care at home for their child. I don't know what mask usage was involved, but obviously her child was exposed to tons of SARS-CoV-2 virus... endlessly. It's a young, active child who wants to be around her mom.

As far as I know, her child did not ever get sick. But this thread reminded me so I'm texting the mom to see how the child is doing.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> Trudeau said he expects all Canadians to be vaccinated by the fall


 I think he means only those Canadians who want to get vaccinated. I personally don’t care for the vaccine. Maybe in two years, 2023 sounds about right for me.


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> I think he means only those Canadians who want to get vaccinated. I personally don’t care for the vaccine. Maybe in two years, 2023 sounds about right for me.


Curious, what is your concern here? Are you worried that the vaccine is more dangerous than the COVID illness?


----------



## Retiredguy

cainvest said:


> Simple .... for you there is no contradiction as you know a vaccine is not available for kids. Furthermore, you draw wild assumptions after knowing they currently can't be vaccinated like "Logically he doesn't consider kids Canadians". No logic in that either.


*** CALL SOCIAL SERVICES NOW ! **** Mr Matt is _logically_ saying Justin Trudeau doesn't care about his own three kids OR think they're Canadian Citizens. Hmmm maybe a birther movement in the making!


----------



## Eder

So Hawaii is talking about allowing travel for those properly vaccinated , no more Covid tests, no quarantine & no masks by May this year for vaccinated travellers.. Hope it happens...very progressive.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Eder said:


> So Hawaii is talking about allowing travel for those properly vaccinated , no more Covid tests, no quarantine & no masks by May this year for vaccinated travellers.. Hope it happens...very progressive.


Obviously the other issue when it comes to travel is that your freedoms do not just relate to the rules at ones place of departure but also the rules that exist at the place of entry.

My opinion is that basic precautions should be maintained until EVERYONE who would like a vaccination, has the opportunity to get one. By basic precautions I mean mainly mask wearing, travel, gathering restrictions, etc. 

Everything else, business openings, etc., can begin again when the infection numbers come down to reasonable levels. All that said, I am not as concerned with travelers as many others seem to be. It is really an opinion of "the horse has left the barn" attitude. Stopping that one Chinese/Canadian in Jan/2020, from bringing the virus to Canada would have been a very useful precaution, but now, with so much infection in Canada, not so much can be gained. Would my life be a little more safer if someone I do not know does not travel. Perhaps, but it would not add up to a rounding error on the decreased risk calculation, in my opinion, so I would focus my energies elsewhere, if in charge. Travel has become more of a political issue then a pandemic issue, if you ask me.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> I think he means only those Canadians who want to get vaccinated. I personally don’t care for the vaccine. Maybe in two years, 2023 sounds about right for me.


My kids want to get vaccinated, they are Canadians.

They will not be vaccinated by this fall.
Trudeau knows that.

He either does not consider my kids "Canadians who want to be vaccinated", or he's lying, or he's incompetent.

I personally think he's incompetent, but considering his incredibly political skill it might also be that he's lying.


----------



## OptsyEagle

What is he supposed to vaccinate your kids with?

Matt, we all know your opinion of our Prime Minister. You have certainly made your position on his performance quite clear.

A little advice, however, is that if you would like any voters to remember anything you have said, at the next Federal election, you need to open your mind up a little and simply point out the times the Prime Minister has actually failed. You may have done this but when 2/3rds of everything you are pointing out is tainted in severe bias, they are getting harder and harder to see.

Do you really think any of us are going to walk away from your argument agreeing that our PM does not think children in this country are Canadian. I know you have put all kinds of smoke and mirror arguments towards that but...really? Think about it and move on to something actually tangible. Just a little advice.


----------



## Eder

Hopefully there is a team working on approving the Novavax vaccine over the weekend but somehow I doubt it.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> Curious, what is your concern here? Are you worried that the vaccine is more dangerous than the COVID illness?


Vaccine is experimental and I am not willing to be a lab rat for big pharma. Once it’s properly tested and will get my shot.


Eder said:


> So Hawaii is talking about allowing travel for those properly vaccinated , no more Covid tests, no quarantine & no masks by May this year for vaccinated travellers.. Hope it happens...very progressive.


Hawaii needs tourists more that tourists need Hawaii. I don’t think they are in the position to play tough ducks.
*Facing Economic Devastation, Hawaii Attempts To Revive Tourism* 
The drop in visitors sent a shockwave through the state's $18 billion tourism industry, which represents the foundation of Hawaii's economy.

Unemployment surged, reaching almost 24% in April and May.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Yes. If I had to point at one of the main issues with travel, it is that the people leaving Canada are rarely going to place of higher precaution. You don't hear of too many Canadians heading off to New Zealand, for example. So, although I don't think travel is as dangerous as our precaution might imply, I can't help thinking about the issue that once these Canadians leave Canada, our ability to keep them from dangerous activities are lost...and then they come back.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Yes. If I had to point at one of the main issues with travel, it is that the people leaving Canada are rarely going to place of higher precaution. You don't hear of too many Canadians heading off to New Zealand, for example. So, although I don't think travel is as dangerous as our precaution might imply, I can't help thinking about the issue that once these Canadians leave Canada, our ability to keep them from dangerous activities are lost...and then they come back.


Given they have linked only 1.4% to travel outside of Canada I think local transmission is a bigger concern.


----------



## andrewf

Travelers are high probability to be super spreaders. They show little concern for reducing exposure to others. And air travel as an activity requires exposing onself to many others for extended periods of time. If they are disproportionately seeding new infections, it means that the rest of society needs to take greater action to keep R under 1 and overall infection rates contained. So they are free-riding on everyone else. 14 day quarantine in a hotel at their own expense is reasonable.


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> Travelers are high probability to be super spreaders. They show little concern for reducing exposure to others.


I don't think there is any data to support those claims.


----------



## Eder

Ukrainiandude said:


> Vaccine is experimental and I am not willing to be a lab rat for big pharma. Once it’s properly tested and will get my shot.
> 
> Hawaii needs tourists more that tourists need Hawaii. I don’t think they are in the position to play tough ducks.
> *Facing Economic Devastation, Hawaii Attempts To Revive Tourism*
> The drop in visitors sent a shockwave through the state's $18 billion tourism industry, which represents the foundation of Hawaii's economy.
> 
> Unemployment surged, reaching almost 24% in April and May.



Yes but they are doing a much better job controlling Covid outbreaks than Canada yet allow 10,000 tourists/day to enter. I wonder why that is? I think it is because they require each traveller to arrive with a clean Covid test. 

Kind of like Alberta's program...get a test on arrival & quarantine till result returns.


----------



## Eder

cainvest said:


> I don't think there is any data to support those claims.


Hawaii has data on travellers, mostly from California...of the new daily infections here less than 1% is attributed to tourists.

But then why use real stats? Better cut down travel and close all restaurants rather than address actual Covid sources of transmission.

Dumbest thing I ever heard of was from my daughter...she took my grand kid skiing at Fairmont. They were required to wear masks while going down the bunny hill. The 3 year old doesn't like wearing the mask much so she had to take him inside the lodge to the hot,steamy restaurant where masks are not required. Real science here.


----------



## like_to_retire

Waiting until next year to be vaccinated will be quite a struggle.

Economist Intelligence Unit Says Canada Won’t Achieve Mass COVID-19 Vaccination Before Mid-2022

_"Though Canada has signed agreements with vaccine suppliers for enough vaccines to immunize five times its population, according to the report Canada will only be able to achieve mass vaccination (60-70% of the adult population) by the middle of next year."_

ltr


----------



## Money172375

cainvest said:


> Given they have linked only 1.4% to travel outside of Canada I think local transmission is a bigger concern.


Are the low rates of travel contributing to the 1.4%? What if travel rates went up 50%? Would cases linked to travel go up?

doesn‘t it reason that the low travel related cases are due to low travel?

and from what I learned about New Zealand, they have a “zero covid” philosophy. they do not accept low rates of transmission, their policies are aimed at zero cases/rates. We should do the same.


----------



## cainvest

Money172375 said:


> Are the low rates of travel contributing to the 1.4%? What if travel rates went up 50%? Would cases linked to travel go up?
> 
> doesn‘t it reason that the low travel related cases are due to low travel?


Sure lower travel rates would be a likely reason for the numbers being low. Many still freak out about a few that do travel when the main problem is in their backyard so to speak. If we had proper before testing and testing/isolation on return it likely could be managed to keep the numbers low. BTW, I'm not promoting international travel, just giving out the numbers.



Money172375 said:


> and from what I learned about New Zealand, they have a “zero covid” philosophy. they do not accept low rates of transmission, their policies are aimed at zero cases/rates. We should do the same.


Aiming at low(er) rates is what they are doing. Going to zero rates causes problems as people would be required to truely isolate. Now that the vaccines are coming into play it's only a matter of time before it's under control with extremely low or zero case counts.


----------



## Money172375

cainvest said:


> Sure lower travel rates would be a likely reason for the numbers being low. Many still freak out about a few that do travel when the main problem is in their backyard so to speak. If we had proper before testing and testing/isolation on return it likely could be managed to keep the numbers low. BTW, I'm not promoting international travel, just giving out the numbers.
> 
> 
> Aiming at low(er) rates is what they are doing. Going to zero rates causes problems as people would be required to truely isolate. Now that the vaccines are coming into play it's only a matter of time before it's under control with extremely low or zero case counts.


Starting to see and hear reports that Canada won’t be immunized until til mid 2022. Anyone else seeing that? Fake news?
my mom said she heard something about it on TV without me prompting her. I came across this earlier today ....









Economist Intelligence Unit Says Canada Won't Achieve Mass COVID-19 Vaccination Before Mid-2022 | To Do Canada


With Pfizer vaccines in short supply, the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU), a sister company to UK-based The Economist newspaper says Canada won’t achieve widespread COVID-19 vaccination until... Read more »




www.todocanada.ca


----------



## Eder

Well in December about 250,000 tourists flew in mostly from Covid ridden California. About 35 got Covid...most of them showed up (like us) without a clean Covid test, so got sick during their 14 day quarantine and didn't affect others. Some caught Covid while here.

Anyway I think it shows how Canada can allow travel without useless punishment. Just my opinion.


----------



## nathan79

The biggest problem with travel right now is the potential to spread more infectious/deadly COVID variants. By the time these are identified it's already too late to stop them from coming in. The UK variant was already here by the time the media started reporting on it.


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> Vaccine is experimental and I am not willing to be a lab rat for big pharma. Once it’s properly tested and will get my shot.


Fair enough, but keep in mind that millions of people are getting these shots so it won't be long before we know.

I do agree the vaccines were experimental, at first, but after a few million people have gotten the vaccine it is hardly experimental any more.

Also, the new J&J vaccine had a much larger clinical trial than Pfizer's. About twice as many people as the Pfizer clinical trial.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Plus the vaccine appears to be ineffective
In the United States, where the South African variant was first reported this week, efficacy reached 72%, compared with just 57% in South Africa, where the new variant, known as B 1.351, made up 95% of the COVID-19 cases reported in the trial.
The new findings, however, raise questions about how highly-effective vaccines from Pfizer Inc with partner BioNTech, and Moderna Inc will fare against new variants. The two vaccines showed an efficacy of around 95% in trials conducted primarily in the United States before the new virus versions were identified in other countries.
but of course “experts“ Experts said that all four vaccines still have great value in their ability to reduce severe COVID-19.

*Fresh data show toll South African virus variant takes on vaccine efficacy








Fresh data show toll South African virus variant takes on vaccine efficacy


Clinical trial data on two COVID-19 vaccines show that a coronavirus variant first identified in South Africa is lessening their ability to protect against the illness, underscoring the need to vaccinate vast numbers of people as quickly as possible, scientists said.




www.reuters.com




*


----------



## sags

If travelers aren't spreading the virus, how are the variants arriving from the UK, South Africa and Brazil ?

They have quickly become the greatest threat.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Israel, which, like the UK, is currently in its third national lockdown, has so far vaccinated more than 75% of its older people with at least one dose. Early reports from the vaccine rollout have suggested that the first dose led to a 33% reduction in cases of coronavirus1 compared with efficacy of at least 52% reported in clinical trials.2


----------



## Eder

If I get a choice of vaccines here I'll take the one from J&J. No one needed hospitalization even though it was tested with the worst variants. Seems like the perfect shot.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> If I get a choice of vaccines here I'll take the one from J&J. No one needed hospitalization even though it was tested with the worst variants. Seems like the perfect shot.


JNJ also had a much larger trial group and included a wider age range, as I understand it. Their clinical trial results may be more meaningful than Pfizer and Moderna's.

I don't mind getting sick. I don't want to end up in hospital or die ... so I think the J&J result is extremely good news.

Yeah, people still got sick. *Nobody* ended up in hospital.


----------



## Eder

nathan79 said:


> The biggest problem with travel right now is the potential to spread more infectious/deadly COVID variants. By the time these are identified it's already too late to stop them from coming in. The UK variant was already here by the time the media started reporting on it.


If we're worried about variants why can we still fly to South Africa & Great Britain but not Mexico? Something stinks imo.


----------



## kcowan2000

cainvest said:


> Given they have linked only 1.4% to travel outside of Canada I think local transmission is a bigger concern.





Money172375 said:


> Are the low rates of travel contributing to the 1.4%? What if travel rates went up 50%? Would cases linked to travel go up?
> 
> doesn‘t it reason that the low travel related cases are due to low travel?


I think it is virtue signalling at great cost to a few travellers. The politicians have no Idea how integrated into the Canadian psyche? The travel by some politicians indicates how deeply. Leaving Florida and Hawaii off indicates that they have no idea what they are doing. And why are UK and SA travellers even allowed in?

And the airlines will be compensated from JTs piggy bank known as we taxpayers. And business travelers will continue to be allowed. Such actions combine the arrogance of Pierre with the education of a failed high school teacher!

(1.4% includes all air travelers including the exceptions noted above.)

These charter travellers on Sunwing hang out at their hotel pools and practice safe protocols. The crowds they show in Cancun is pure propaganda.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Eder said:


> If I get a choice of vaccines here I'll take the one from J&J. No one needed hospitalization even though it was tested with the worst variants. Seems like the perfect shot.


If you are nearing 70 or older I highly recommend the double shot. The single dose may be enough for most infections but if you manage to be exposed to a very high dose of covid, that second shot my very well save your life.

That is my opinion. Feel free to prove me wrong.


----------



## andrewf

I don't think we need to ban travel, but I think Australia's approach of imposing 14 day quarantine at a hotel is not unreasonable. Not all travelers abide by the quarantine requirement, otherwise the UK variant would not have landed on our shores.


----------



## bgc_fan

andrewf said:


> I don't think we need to ban travel, but I think Australia's approach of imposing 14 day quarantine at a hotel is not unreasonable. Not all travelers abide by the quarantine requirement, otherwise the UK variant would not have landed on our shores.


I think the other issue is how the quarantine measures were taken. I wouldn't consider a single traveler returning from an overseas trip to go back into a family environment an effective quarantine. And there have been people exempted from quarantine, but being an essential worker doesn't make you immune from coronovirus.


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> I think the other issue is how the quarantine measures were taken. I wouldn't consider a single traveler returning from an overseas trip to go back into a family environment an effective quarantine. And there have been people exempted from quarantine, but being an essential worker doesn't make you immune from coronovirus.


No but if you make it so each truck driver can only make 1 round trip across the border a month, you've basically shut down our economy.
It's a weighted risk.

Plus I knwo truck drivers, several got hotel rooms when this first started, so they wouldn't expose their families.
I'm not worried about truckers spreading coronavirus as much as people going on vacation.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> Plus I knwo truck drivers, several got hotel rooms when this first started, so they wouldn't expose their families.
> I'm not worried about truckers spreading coronavirus as much as people going on vacation.


But would they not expose everyone that worked in the hotel - front desk staff, baggage staff, cleaner staff, food staff, etc.?

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> But would they not expose everyone that worked in the hotel - front desk staff, baggage staff, cleaner staff, food staff, etc.?
> 
> ltr


Yes and no, the thing is in a hotel you're isolated, I know some hotel managers.
They increased cleaning, even reserved rooms for certain people.

Plus it's the prolonged close contact of goinghome and hanging out with your family that would spread.


----------



## james4beach

People don't obey these quarantines.

I run into a lot of tourists in my city when I'm walking in the park. A few days ago I overheard a guy visiting from Manitoba, and starting talking with him. I only do this outdoors and I am very careful to stand upwind from people.

He wasn't quite an anti-masker, but he said the government is lying about all the numbers and there really isn't so much COVID out there. He said what I hear a lot of these types say, "if I get sick then I get sick". He was from Manitoba and said when he goes back home, he isn't going to stay locked up ... he said it's a stupid requirement and everyone is over reacting.

That means he's planning to violate MB's quarantine law before he even gets home. Now consider how many people start the quarantines with good intention, but get tired or bored after a couple days, and just give up.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I am all for travel restrictions but I can't help thinking they won't do that much to fight the pandemic since the problem is not necessarily the travel but the person who does the travelling. If I could get them to leave and promise only to come back after all of Canada is vaccinated, I might even suggest the taxpayer supplement their tickets.

It is the traveler that is the problem, not the travel.

(and yes, I know, many that travel during covid will believe they are an exception. yadayadayada.)


----------



## Beaver101

^


> _That means he's planning to violate MB's quarantine law before he even gets home. Now consider how many people start the quarantines with good intention, but get tired or bored after a couple days, and just give up._


And when these whimpy-bored-outofmind-with-too-much-time-and-money-morons land in the ICU units, they can only blame themselves. Hope they will be able to sleep better too when someone/the people they dearly love croaks from Covid because the selfish-moron(s) infected them. Plus I HIGHLY DOUBT they had good intentions in the first place. #[email protected]! morons.


----------



## Eder

Manitoba quarantine for inter provincial travel is silly. Get a Covid test followed by another in 3 days would make some sense. It looks like another knee jerk panacea rule to show fringe Manitobans something is being done.

Similar to our moron in chief shutting down flights from Mexico to protect us from South Africans & Brits. Anyone wanting to go to Mexico can just use United to get there...why bankrupt Westjet & AC instead?

This is why many have a cavalier attitude...more rules not based on science becomes pretty easy to ignore.

At least BC & Alberta have a clue.


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> I am all for travel restrictions but I can't help thinking they won't do that much to fight the pandemic since the problem is not necessarily the travel but the person who does the travelling. If I could get them to leave and promise only to come back after all of Canada is vaccinated, I might even suggest the taxpayer supplement their tickets.
> 
> It is the traveler that is the problem, not the travel.
> 
> (and yes, I know, many that travel during covid will believe they are an exception. yadayadayada.)


I think you bring up an interesting point. Someone who decides to travel for holidays despite the consistent recommendations not to, is also unlikely going to follow quarantine guidelines when they return.


----------



## Eder

Looks like Kenney will supply a hotel room free for any Albertan needing to isolate due to Covid and get $625 for the trouble.

I love this guy & he sure hates Mr Socks.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> Manitoba quarantine for inter provincial travel is silly. Get a Covid test followed by another in 3 days would make some sense. It looks like another knee jerk panacea rule to show fringe Manitobans something is being done.
> 
> Similar to our moron in chief shutting down flights from Mexico to protect us from South Africans & Brits. Anyone wanting to go to Mexico can just use United to get there...why bankrupt Westjet & AC instead?
> 
> This is why many have a cavalier attitude...more rules not based on science becomes pretty easy to ignore.
> 
> At least BC & Alberta have a clue.


I think we should let people travel to Mexico, as long as they are fine with quarantining in a hotel for 2 weeks upon return, at their own expense. It can take up to 14 days to develop an infection, so two tests 3 days apart are meaningless. Testing upon arrival does not prove that you will not develop an infection in 5 days. If anything, many people will take this as carte blanche to skip quarantine. I know enough people in my family to know that quarantine for travel is not being taken seriously.


----------



## Eder

Using a hotel to quarantine is a silly unnecessary punishment used only to deflect the fact our government is failing us in the fight against Covid. 

I understand many Canadians are unable to travel...I am sorry. I understand many Canadians can't afford their own home... I am sorry.

So lets all grovel together in Covid and homeless misery ...I get it. 

Meanwhile Canadians are flying Air Canada to Britain, but need to use an American carrier to get to Puerto Vallarta...I am sorry.


----------



## andrewf

Hey, if I had to choose between letting people get some sun and letting kids be in school, I know what I choose.


----------



## sags

I would choose neither and take the pandemic seriously, especially since the variants are spreading and there are vaccine shortages all over North America.

I give it a few weeks before outbreaks start in schools again. We sure have short memories. We already forgot why the schools were closed in the first place.

But.....maybe it is different this time.


----------



## sags

My son was working out of town in the Peel region all last week.

Despite working outside, they have to wear masks and observe the protocols.

He comes back to his hotel room and someone has cleaned it. They touched everything, including his XBox and controls.

He was pissed and went to the front desk. The manager was called. He called his employer and they were pissed. Then he called the Peel health authority and reamed them out.

The hotel didn't charge for the room, but that isn't the point. The restrictions are that nobody is supposed to enter the room.......nobody, except for between guests.

The Peel region is a hot zone.......and businesses just ignore the rules. Too many people and some media think the pandemic is almost over.

Now they are bringing their sick patients to our local hospitals and filling them up.


----------



## doctrine

The US has now vaccinated more people than have tested positive for COVID to date. That is pretty impressive. Vaccinations are at > 10 times the rate of new cases and likely to accelerate to 20-30 times in the next 4-6 weeks. Almost over.


----------



## andrewf

doctrine said:


> Almost over.


Realistically, we're at the half-way point. Just keepin' it real.


----------



## doctrine

andrewf said:


> Realistically, we're at the half-way point. Just keepin' it real.


I would say it is closer to the beginning of the end, than the end of the beginning or the middle. Once spring arrives and flu season ends, combined with vaccines in every risk group, that will probably be it.


----------



## james4beach

Here's a good interview with Dr Gottlieb, discussing both the J&J vaccine results and vaccines vs mutant strains. He's on the board of Pfizer (a competitor) and yet is speaking very positively about the J&J results -- it's a good vaccine result.

Gottlieb pointed out several things I wasn't aware of. One is that the J&J vaccine trial looked at effects a longer # of days out from vaccination, so he points out that the "% effectiveness" is not an apples-to-apples comparison between these vaccines. He also thinks the vaccines we now have should be pretty good against mutations, or that the virus will mutate slow enough (slower than influenza) that we can refactor and keep up.

In terms of clinical trial procedure, the J&J clinical trial is probably the best of them so far. I like that J&J took more time to not rush it. It's a larger number of people, they looked a longer # of days out from vaccination and had a wider age range. (this info is from what I read elsewhere)

Good news story, overall. Here's the video:


----------



## Money172375

Rita Wilson, the wife of Tom Hanks says she no longer tests positive for anti-bodies. If you recall, her and Tom were one of the earliest celebrities to test positive for covid early in the pandemic. It’s just one example, that anti-bodies may only be good for about a year.

interested to see how the vaccines perform long-term.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Money172375 said:


> Rita Wilson, the wife of Tom Hanks says she no longer tests positive for anti-bodies. If you recall, her and Tom were one of the earliest celebrities to test positive for covid early in the pandemic. It’s just one example, that anti-bodies may only be good for about a year.
> 
> interested to see how the vaccines perform long-term.


It will also be interesting to see how long the anti-bodies last for people with the 2 dose vaccine or anyone who they know was exposed to the virus more then once.

I am beginning to think the body may have a different response for a one off virus and one that it seems to be coming in contact with over and over again.


----------



## Beaver101

UK COVID-19 variant is 'spontaneously' showing mutation that lessens vaccine effectiveness

I think we'll be wearing masks, using hand-sanitizers and adhering to social distancing for awhile ... like at least 2 more years or into 2023. Or as predicted by Ukraindude, we no longer will be lab rats ... we'll be mutated rats ... lol.


----------



## like_to_retire

Beaver101 said:


> I think we'll be wearing masks, using hand-sanitizers and adhering to social distancing for awhile ... like at least 2 more years or into 2023.


The UK report from EIU that says Canada won't achieve mass vaccination status until the middle of 2022. 

That's over a year away.










Economist Intelligence Unit Says Canada Won't Achieve Mass COVID-19 Vaccination Before Mid-2022 | To Do Canada


With Pfizer vaccines in short supply, the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU), a sister company to UK-based The Economist newspaper says Canada won’t achieve widespread COVID-19 vaccination until... Read more »




www.todocanada.ca





ltr


----------



## Eder

Hopefully someone in our government is moving forward to approve J&J , Novavax etc or it might be 2023. 

Meanwhile I'm atm listening to the radio here in Oahu...the doctor commenting feels Hawaii will achieve herd immunity thru vaccinations by mid July, and they didn't have to cancel flights to Mexico to get there.


----------



## cheech10

OptsyEagle said:


> It will also be interesting to see how long the anti-bodies last for people with the 2 dose vaccine or anyone who they know was exposed to the virus more then once.
> 
> I am beginning to think the body may have a different response for a one off virus and one that it seems to be coming in contact with over and over again.


Repeated exposure leads to more potent immune responses. This is the same principle behind multi-dose vaccines, to boost the effect.

Antibody levels unfortunately don't correlate all that well with immunity. After a few weeks, the plasma cells that make the antibodies die off so you have few circulating antibodies, but you still have memory B cells circulating that will regenerate new plasma cells if re-exposed to the virus. It's also why convalescent plasma doesn't work very well for COVID; many of the samples are taken too long after infection and have only low levels of anti-COVID antibodies.


----------



## Eder

cheech10 said:


> Antibody levels unfortunately don't correlate all that well with immunity. After a few weeks, the plasma cells that make the antibodies die off so you have few circulating antibodies, but you still have memory B cells circulating that will regenerate new plasma cells if re-exposed to the virus.


Thanks for the post. Enlightening.

Meanwhile predictably media is publishing scare articles about the lack of antibodies in Tom Hanks wife.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Israel will not achieve herd immunity against Covid-19
If in the first few weeks of the vaccination drive, demand outstripped supply, since the data-for-doses deal between Israel and Pfizer, supply has begun to outstrip demand. Only 117,000 people were vaccinated yesterday - about half of Israel's proven capacity - with some clinics reportedly compelled to dump excess doses due to lack of customers.








Israel will not achieve herd immunity against Covid-19







en.globes.co.il




*this is how it is going to be in the USA and Canada


----------



## Beaver101

And in the meantime, there is a claim that,

*



Israeli hospital claims may have found cure for COVID-19

Click to expand...

*


> *Preliminary testing shows that 29 out of 30 virus patients in serious condition that were administered the drug, dubbed EXO-CD24, once a day made a full recovery within five days; similar treatment announced by Hadassah Medical Center*
> Ynet|
> Updated: 02.04.21 , 20:58
> 
> Israeli hospital claims may have found cure for COVID-19



In which case, we can understand why Israelis are now becoming hesitant to be vaccinated by the Pfizer's vaccine. 

But with the dumping of the "excess" vaccine (reading from Ukrainiandude's link) while other countries such as First World Canada having to beg just for "some" ... is nothing short of *obscenity.*


----------



## gibor365

IMHO this is the best option for Israel _The second option is to simply open up the economy and let the virus do its worst, unchecked. After all most people in high risk groups have been vaccinated and everybody has been offered a vaccination. The virus will proliferate among the young, especially the British mutation, but all the evidence so far is that Covid does not seriously harm the young, fit and healthy. .
_
btw, just talked to my relatives in Novosibirsk (3rd biggest city in Russia , 1.5M population), Covid over there extremely rare, all restaurants, bars, stores, arenas etc completely open, Masks are optional. Everyone can get vaccine immediately, but many don't want


----------



## Eder

I think Justin needs to start begging Putin for some Sputnik vaccine.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> I think Justin needs to start begging Putin for some Sputnik vaccine.


Since you're flying all over the place anyway, why don't you do something useful and transport some vaccines.

Or better yet, stop travelling between states & countries if you really want to help the situation.


----------



## Eder

Ouch...havent been on a plane in over 2 months....I don't think my loc has much to do with lack of vaccine in Canada, just embarrassed of the latest failure(s) of the PM. But do feel free to lash out.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> Ouch...havent been on a plane in over 2 months....I don't think my loc has much to do with lack of vaccine in Canada, just embarrassed of the latest failure(s) of the PM. But do feel free to lash out.


You may consider yourself lucky! Last time we were abroad last Xmas in Spain... and usually we are travelling abroad 4 times a year.... looks like we gonna be stuck for another couple of years. 



> just embarrassed of the latest failure(s) of the PM.


same feeling .... Israel end of March is going to finish all vaccination, UK - end of April and Canada is .... starting to build plant in Montreal (where else Trudeau can do it?!).
Countries like Servia, Poland, Malta, Romania etc vaccinated 2-3 times more people than Canada ... What a shame!


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> I think Justin needs to start begging Putin for some Sputnik vaccine.


IMHO, Russian vaccines aren't worse than AstraZeneca for example... Myself and All my huge family got dozens of Soviet vaccines from different diseases and we didn't have any issues


----------



## Money172375

I’d be vaccinating like crazy too if I was Israel. See below. The Israeli people have learned the hard way what it takes to protect themselves. it’s at the core of their very essence since WW2. I was, and still am very uninformed about their history.....but I did work for 5 years in a deeply Jewish area of the city. Protecting themselves and their children is at their very core.....outwardly discussed much more so then any other ethnic group I encountered while working in very diverse and concentrated areas of Toronto.

I’ll reserve judgment on Trudeau until the end of March if the 6 million doses don’t arrive. any failure to this point lies in years of neglecting home-grown vaccine making capabilities due to both Conservative and Liberal governments. As a professor said on the news when pressed to give the gov’t a grade......it’s still to early


----------



## like_to_retire

Money172375 said:


> The Israeli people have learned the hard way what it takes to protect themselves. It’s at the core of their very essence since WW2.


Agreed, and when I first heard about the amazing results of Israel mobilizing and getting their people vaccinated, it only made sense that a country that is use to experiencing Palestinians lobbing rockets and mortars onto their citizens year after year, these people are very much prepared for emergencies, and as you say, they know what it takes to protect themselves. Compare that to Canada where the most we have to worry about is whether our take out coffee is piping hot. We are just not prepared for this type of emergency.

ltr


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> I’d be vaccinating like crazy too if I was Israel. See below. The Israeli people have learned the hard way what it takes to protect themselves. it’s at the core of their very essence since WW2. I was, and still am very uninformed about their history.....but I did work for 5 years in a deeply Jewish area of the city. Protecting themselves and their children is at their very core.....outwardly discussed much more so then any other ethnic group I encountered while working in very diverse and concentrated areas of Toronto.
> 
> I’ll reserve judgment on Trudeau until the end of March if the 6 million doses don’t arrive. any failure to this point lies in years of neglecting home-grown vaccine making capabilities due to both Conservative and Liberal governments. As a professor said on the news when pressed to give the gov’t a grade......it’s still to early


Living many years in Israel, as a former IDF soldier and police officer, I understand very well "our very core"... Israel has a smart government and superb fully digitized Health system (was talking for years about it) and we have .... Trudeau and ... OHIP LOL... 
They administered 62+% doses per population , more than quarter got already 2 vaccines.

Our government promised until end of December to vaccinate ALL LTC and their personal.... so, where are happy report about our achievements?! 
Trudeau also promised to vaccinate everyone until end of September! Do you really believe him?!

P.S. AstraZeneca vaccine was approved by UK, EU, Brazil and dozen of other countries long time ago.... What our "fabulous" Health Canada is doing?! Pretending they are working on it?!IMHO, By no means Health Canada more proficient than UK or EU...
We got Theresa Tam who in march said that no need to wear any masks


----------



## Money172375

Interesting....from Politici.eu. Re: Israel’s success. I can say with a lot of certainty, that Canadians would not agree to this....the whole individual vs group rights “thing”. We can’t get people to not go on vacation because it’s their “right”....no way we would give up privacy for group benefits.

Reasons behind this roaring start are fast emerging: Netanyahu revealed on January 7 that Israel struck an agreement with Pfizer to exchange citizens' data for 10 million doses of the coronavirus vaccine, including a promise of shipments of 400,000-700,000 doses every week.
Under this agreement, Israel will provide details to Pfizer (as well as and the World Health Organization) about the age, gender and medical history of those receiving the jab as well as its side effects and efficacy. No identifying information will be given in order to maintain some privacy.


----------



## Money172375

And another.....perhaps we low-balled the price.......

Also unclear was the price it (Israel) had paid for the Pfizer jab — until January 5, when officials disclosed off-the-record that Israel paid $30 per person. That's more than twice the amount listed by Belgium, for example, which accidentally revealed its vaccine price list when Belgium's secretary of state tweeted it. Then, on Monday night, an Israeli public broadcaster reported an even higher price, at $47 per person.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Interesting....from Politici.eu. Re: Israel’s success. I can say with a lot of certainty, that Canadians would not agree to this....
> 
> Reasons behind this roaring start are fast emerging: Netanyahu revealed on January 7 that Israel struck an agreement with Pfizer to exchange citizens' data for 10 million doses of the coronavirus vaccine, including a promise of shipments of 400,000-700,000 doses every week.
> Under this agreement, Israel will provide details to Pfizer (as well as and the World Health Organization) about the age, gender and medical history of those receiving the jab as well as its side effects and efficacy. No identifying information will be given in order to maintain some privacy.


Not "
that "Canadians would not agree to this....", Canada just doesn't have fully digitized medical records... Look at Ontario who for months was doubling in their report number of people who got 2 vaccines .. and obviously Israel paid for it more, and Canada just wasted money as usual on different crap ..
Also, Bibi (Israeli PM) was constantly communicating directly with CEOs of vaccine producers.
btw, you are talking about Pfizer .... but what with Moderma who speed up vaccines to Israel and cut vaccines to Canada?!


----------



## Eder

*Putin’s Once-Scorned Vaccine Now Favorite in Pandemic Fight*








Putin’s Once-Scorned Vaccine Now Favorite in Pandemic Fight


President Vladimir Putin’s announcement in August that Russia had cleared the world’s first Covid-19 vaccine for use before it even completed safety trials sparked skepticism worldwide. Now he may reap diplomatic dividends as Russia basks in arguably its biggest scientific breakthrough since the...




www.bloomberg.com






Cmon JT...earn your money & get us in line.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> *Putin’s Once-Scorned Vaccine Now Favorite in Pandemic Fight*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Putin’s Once-Scorned Vaccine Now Favorite in Pandemic Fight
> 
> 
> President Vladimir Putin’s announcement in August that Russia had cleared the world’s first Covid-19 vaccine for use before it even completed safety trials sparked skepticism worldwide. Now he may reap diplomatic dividends as Russia basks in arguably its biggest scientific breakthrough since the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cmon JT...earn your money & get us in line.


Maybe Putin can give some Sputniks to "poor" Canada LOL


----------



## bgc_fan

Looks like there may need to be some more study for the AstraZeneca vaccine. It is still with Health Canada to approve, but I wondering if it will be delayed given the South African experience.








South Africa seeks new vaccine plan after halting AstraZeneca


South Africa is considering giving a COVID-19 vaccine that is still in the testing phase to health workers, after suspending the rollout of another shot that preliminary data indicated may be only minimally effective against the mutated form of the virus dominating the country.




www.cp24.com


----------



## gibor365

Maybe South Africa would ask Russia for Sputnik V. Already more than 30 countries approved it and vaccine also " is currently being manufactured in countries including India, South Korea and Brazil ", soon Turkey gonna start soon.
Russia already started to supply to Africa also.
It's based on traditional technology , like AstraZeneca's one (and can be store just in the fridge) , but with much high efficiency at 92%


----------



## Eder

Here's how India is turning things around









Buy Ziverdo Kit Zinc Acetate 50 mg, Doxycycline 100 mg & Ivermectin 12 mg Online at RxIndia.com


Ziverdo Kit Contains Zinc Acetate 50 mg, Doxycycline 100 mg & Ivermectin 12 mg Dispersible Tablets. It is currently indicated in the first line treatment for COVID-19 positive patients. Quadruple Therapy with Ivermectin is effective in treating COVID-19




www.rxindia.com


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> Cmon JT...earn your money & get us in line.


You conservative types sure do whine a lot. I thought you guys were supposed to be the "tough" ones? How did big tough policemen like @gibor365 or tough army men like @MrMatt or big oil guys like @Eder turn into such incessant whiners?

The federal government has already procured vaccine doses for Canada. There was a brief interruption in delivery, and the vaccine deliveries are ramping up again in the next few weeks. Get up to speed with the facts, and you won't feel so sad and scared all the time.

Vaccines are still coming. But I've learned how conservative complaining works. If we actually had tons of vaccines stuffing the fridges, then you would be complaining about Trudeau influencing Health Canada to do fast approvals.

It's always one complaint or another with you conservative types. In the US, the conservatives are complaining that masks and vaccines hurt their civil liberties.

You should be thankful the pandemic has been managed this well in Canada.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> The federal government has already procured vaccine doses for Canada. There was a brief interruption in delivery, and the vaccine deliveries are ramping up again in the next few weeks. Get up to speed with the facts, and you won't feel so sad and scared all the time.


The federal government did absolutely nothing .... just lies and vaccines on the papers


----------



## Eder

james4beach said:


> The federal government has already procured vaccine doses for Canada. There was a brief interruption in delivery, and the vaccine deliveries are ramping up again in the next few weeks.
> 
> You should be thankful the pandemic has been managed this well in Canada.


Wow...name calling!!
I had a rebuttal decided to delete it, no point.
JT needs to get to Russia wearing his knee pads.

Oh screw it ...here goes...

We seem to be losing touch with reality and have accepted a world where facts and the truth have been replaced by propaganda and lies. I have no doubt this crazy period will end but I am not certain the world I once knew will emerge from the chaos.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> We seem to be losing touch with reality and have accepted a world where facts and the truth have been replaced by propaganda and lies.


I'm not sure what you mean by all this.

The Procurement Minister says that these delays were temporary. They are expecting we will receive 70,000 doses next week. Then about 336,000 doses by the week of Feb 15.

So the Minister in charge says that more vaccines are coming very soon. When you say "losing touch with reality" can you explain what you mean? I am under the impression that more vaccines are coming very soon, and that there really isn't a problem with vaccine supply for Canada.

Where do we disagree, exactly? Are you saying the Minister is not telling the truth? Or maybe you are saying, you'll believe it when you see it.


----------



## kcowan

When the kid with the largest megaphone says they are on plan, I am convinced that he has never seen, let alone authorize, a plan. Now his minion amplifies that lie and we are all supposed to,feel better. Yes I will believe what my own eyes see and not empty promises from the kid in charge. I have said to my friends that I expect to,get vaccinated by July because I am in the high risk group. Now I have applied in Mexico because it might be faster...


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Latest news is that Corona cases are down by half compared to the first of the year. The crisis may be over sooner than they expected with or without vaccines.
Here is the Government of Canada official web site, click on Current Situation and scroll down for charts showing cases in Canada dropped from 8000 to 4000 since January. By the way it looks like the Maritimes are the safe place to be. Wonder if they are doing anything special or is it the sea air?




__





COVID-19 daily epidemiology update - Canada.ca


Summary of COVID-19 cases across Canada and over time. Contains detailed data about the spread of the virus over time and in different regions of the country. Includes breakdowns by age and sex or gender. Provides an overview of hospitalizations and deaths, testing, variants of concern and...




health-infobase.canada.ca


----------



## OptsyEagle

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Latest news is that Corona cases are down by half compared to the first of the year. The crisis may be over sooner than they expected with or without vaccines.
> Here is the Government of Canada official web site, click on Current Situation and scroll down for charts showing cases in Canada dropped from 8000 to 4000 since January. By the way it looks like the Maritimes are the safe place to be. Wonder if they are doing anything special or is it the sea air?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 daily epidemiology update - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> Summary of COVID-19 cases across Canada and over time. Contains detailed data about the spread of the virus over time and in different regions of the country. Includes breakdowns by age and sex or gender. Provides an overview of hospitalizations and deaths, testing, variants of concern and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> health-infobase.canada.ca


I think it is a temporary reprieve. I use to tell people that Christmas was a kind of "high impact family time" event. In normal years, you literally tend to see more family and rarely seen friends around Christmas then any other holiday in the world. The high impact description dealt with the fact that although I usually enjoyed seeing these people, by the time Christmas/New Years was over, I had certainly had my fill of seeing cousins way too many times removed.

So this year, I figure it probably was not too difficult for most Canadians to avoid other people right after New Years. They most likely enjoyed this alone time. That, unfortuneately will wane. It is too early for the vaccines to kick in and help, and if Canadians do what they have usually done, which I expect will start soon, we should see a levelling off of the decline in infections and perhaps a small spike back up.


----------



## Money172375

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Latest news is that Corona cases are down by half compared to the first of the year. The crisis may be over sooner than they expected with or without vaccines.
> Here is the Government of Canada official web site, click on Current Situation and scroll down for charts showing cases in Canada dropped from 8000 to 4000 since January. By the way it looks like the Maritimes are the safe place to be. Wonder if they are doing anything special or is it the sea air?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 daily epidemiology update - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> Summary of COVID-19 cases across Canada and over time. Contains detailed data about the spread of the virus over time and in different regions of the country. Includes breakdowns by age and sex or gender. Provides an overview of hospitalizations and deaths, testing, variants of concern and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> health-infobase.canada.ca


Might have spoke too soon. NFLD with a new record daily high.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/covid-19-feb-10-briefing-newfoundland-1.5908401


----------



## gibor365

_Where do we disagree, exactly? Are you saying the Minister is not telling the truth? Or maybe you are saying, you'll believe it when you see it. - _Maybe Anand is lying, who know?! I'd believe it when I see it


----------



## gibor365

kcowan said:


> When the kid with the largest megaphone says they are on plan, I am convinced that he has never seen, let alone authorize, a plan. Now his minion amplifies that lie and we are all supposed to,feel better. Yes I will believe what my own eyes see and not empty promises from the kid in charge. I have said to my friends that I expect to,get vaccinated by July because I am in the high risk group. Now I have applied in Mexico because it might be faster...


My mom, MIL, uncle and aunt , all 75+ in high risk group... they don't have even vaccination estimations time ... family doctor tells that she has no slightest clue ...
The problem having vaccine in Mexico or any other country - upon return you have to spend 3 night in Trudeau approved "hotel" paying 2K...


----------



## kcowan

I am counting on blowback and screw ups leading to the internment camps being eliminated by June when we return on Westjet


----------



## Beaver101

^ You don't have to if the numbers don't come down. 

Besides, the latest advisory issued by the American experts with first paragraph (in quote below) making alot of sense of ????

Fully-vaccinated people can skip 14 day self-isolation period in case of COVID-19 exposure: U.S. CDC



> Feb 11 (Reuters) -- _People who have received the full course of COVID-19 vaccines* can skip the standard 14-day quarantine after exposure to someone with the infection as long as they remain asymptomatic, U.S. public health officials advised.* ... _


It sounds like vaccinated people are free to go about with their business .. infecting everyone else, only in stealth mode being asymptomatic.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I am pretty sure they are not allowing vaccinated people to skip quarantine because they can offer stealth infections to others. The concern over the infectiousness of a vaccinated person was exaggerated way out of proportion compared to the actual reality we have in front of us with these vaccines.

All vaccinated people CAN be infectious, but in reality more then 1/2 never ever will be and the others will not be for very long. Probably, for those vaccinated people who expose themselves to a very high dose of covid-19, they might be infectious for maybe 1 day. Not perfect, but the number of these people will be so small it will not be enough to cause even a minor outbreak.

The CDC is just addressing this reality. Vaccinated people are not going to be our problem. They are going to be our savior.


----------



## cainvest

Interesting news .... 
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-covid-19-vaccine-update-1.5910312


----------



## gibor365

Truly "amazing" vaccination rate in Canada! (#50 out of 83)  but on the paper we're Number 1 by "securing" vaccines


CountryCumulative COVID-19 vaccinations per 100 peopleIsrael69.46GibraltarFeb 9 62.39United Arab Emirates47.37SeychellesFeb 9 45.17Cayman Islands21.43WalesFeb 9 20.90EnglandFeb 9 20.54United KingdomFeb 9 20.00Northern IrelandFeb 9 19.09ScotlandFeb 9 18.28JerseyJan 31 14.68Isle of Man14.63BermudaFeb 6 14.61United States13.39Bahrain12.91Faeroe Islands10.96GuernseyJan 24 9.95Malta9.81Serbia9.41DenmarkFeb 9 6.14MonacoJan 18 6.12ChileFeb 9 5.58IcelandFeb 8 5.17Romania5.05Lithuania5IrelandFeb 7 4.87SpainFeb 9 4.78SwitzerlandFeb 7 4.77SloveniaFeb 9 4.72PolandFeb 9 4.69Italy4.58GreenlandJan 27 4.55SlovakiaFeb 9 4.44Greece4.41Estonia4.39Singapore4.38NorwayFeb 9 4.23Finland4.22HungaryFeb 9 4.20GermanyFeb 9 4.19European Union4.17Sweden3.99BelgiumFeb 9 3.97Portugal3.92CyprusFeb 5 3.75Czechia3.73FranceFeb 9 3.47AustriaFeb 8 3.46Turkey3.31Canada3.06


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> Truly "amazing" vaccination rate in Canada! (#50 out of 83)  but on the paper we're Number 1 by "securing" vaccines


Well good news we're finally going to make our own now ... better late then never I guess.


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> Well good news we're finally going to make our own now ... better late then never I guess.


It's too late already...
btw, just a very few countries that above Canada produce their own vaccine


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> It's too late already...
> btw, just a very few countries that above Canada produce their own vaccine


Too late ... maybe ... maybe not. Unless you know when the pandemic will end it's hard to say.


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> Too late ... maybe ... maybe not. Unless you know when the pandemic will end it's hard to say.


Yes, we don't know when it will end (probably after full vaccination), but we know very well when it started


----------



## james4beach

Thought I'd share this, since people have been complaining about vaccination in Canada. It's not much better in the US and *they don't have enough doses either*. Here's what my old clinic sent me:

​We know many of you have questions about when the COVID-19 vaccine will be available to you and how to schedule an appointment. We wish we had more definitive answers. [The clinic] continues to be in contact with the Oregon Health Authority (OHA) about COVID-19 vaccine distribution planning, and we are following direction from the OHA and the governor of Oregon.​. . .​It is unclear at this time when, or if, we will receive vaccines to administer to our patients, but please check our website for the latest information about vaccine availability​​


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> . . .
> It is unclear at this time when, or if, we will receive vaccines to administer to our patients, but please check our website for the latest information about vaccine availability​​


I was wondering if this clinic and others in the USA were following the practice of giving the first shot to people with all the vaccine they had on hand and then hoping they would get subsequent shipments to honor the second dose? I understand some provinces in Canada were toying with this idea. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

ltr


----------



## james4beach

like_to_retire said:


> I was wondering if this clinic and others in the USA were following the practice of giving the first shot to people with all the vaccine they had on hand and then hoping they would get subsequent shipments to honor the second dose? I understand some provinces in Canada were toying with this idea. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me.


I don't know. I think that the policies vary significantly from state to state.


----------



## Eder

There is no comparison. 46 million doses given in the States....over 1.5 million/day average this week. Every day they vaccinate more than Canada has done in the last 2 months.

Hawaii is keeping 2nd dose back to complete each person...not sure what other states are doing.

Meanwhile Manitoba is the first province to give up on Junior....we're all in this together.

Oh...Canada has vaccinated 1,177,728 .


----------



## sags

Ontario didn't hold back doses for the second shot.

The vaccination clinic shut down and cancelled appointments for the second shot.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> Ontario didn't hold back doses for the second shot.
> 
> The vaccination clinic shut down and cancelled appointments for the second shot.


Doesn't seem like the best way to go.. 

ltr


----------



## bgc_fan

like_to_retire said:


> Doesn't seem like the best way to go..
> 
> ltr


Originally Ontario was holding back the second dose, but then there was public pressure to start releasing all the doses at once like the other provinces. Now with the supply issues, instead of looking good to ensure the 2nd dose, it looks like every other province.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> It's too late already...
> btw, just a very few countries that above Canada produce their own vaccine


Your boy Harper is responsible for ensuring Canada can't make vaccines domestically. I think I've said this to you several times: if you relish hating on Canada and pine for Israel and Russia, why do you live here and not there?


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Your boy Harper is responsible for ensuring Canada can't make vaccines domestically. I think I've said this to you several times: if you relish hating on Canada and pine for Israel and Russia, why do you live here and not there?


Sorry pal, but this is not your business


----------



## gibor365

Merck and Teva in talks to join COVID-19 vaccine production


Merck & Co. (MRK) says that the companyis in discussions withgovernments and companies to help accelerate the COVID-19 vaccine production.“Beyond our own candidates, we...




seekingalpha.com





Soon Israel gonna have way too many vaccines


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Sorry pal, but this is not your business


Maybe the answer is that despite all your bellyaching, when the chips are on the table you make the decision to live here and not there. Words don't match actions.


----------



## Eder

andrewf said:


> Maybe the answer is that despite all your bellyaching, when the chips are on the table you make the decision to live here and not there. Words don't match actions.



You do realize Gibor is as Canadian as you but with a different opinion? I didn't think so.


----------



## james4beach

@Eder it's so admirable to see you standing up for a fellow Canadian. I'm sure you bring that same enthusiasm to the table when you stand up for Muslim immigrants, or perhaps Syrian refugees who come to our country and become Canadian.

I'm imagining an immigrant from Iran who settles in Canada. He expresses nothing but contempt for the Canadian government, complaining every day, and says, "back home our Supreme Leader really knew how to do things right... that's what a real ruler looks like. I want the Supreme Leader, not this dictator prime minister"

But wait... here comes Eder to the rescue of the Iranian-Canadian, and sets us all straight: "this man is just as Canadian as you but with a different opinion"


----------



## Eder

I guess you wouldn't know my daughter in law is Iranian, they immigrated many years ago and her father is a very successful developer in Alberta and BC. Of course you wouldn't know. What are the odds.Is a bit racist though.

I think you need to post more on Mr Socks exemplary vaccine roll out in this thread rather than antagonizing any that question your leader.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> I guess you wouldn't know my daughter in law is Iranian, they immigrated many years ago and her father is a very successful developer in Alberta and BC. Of course you wouldn't know. Is a bit racist though.


Typical right wing response to call everything racist.

My point is that I hope you apply your values equally to people from all backgrounds. Not just those who happen to align with your own ideology (as Gibor does).


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Your boy Harper is responsible for ensuring Canada can't make vaccines domestically.


Ha ha ....what a joke! Now it's Harper fault that Liberals failed to deliver vaccine ! You're Liberals are something LOL

btw, UK took 9 months to start producing vaccine from the scratch


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Typical right wing response to call everything racist.
> 
> My point is that I hope you apply your values equally to people from all backgrounds. Not just those who happen to align with your own ideology (as Gibor does).


Typical anti-Semitic response to compare Iran and Israel...

P.S. As a Canadian citizen it's my right to try to make Canada to comply with my values...

P.P.S. if JT wins next elections, we are strongly considering to buy house in Spain for 500K EUR and get Golden Visa... anyway our son who works in private equity is planning to move to UK and our daughter , after graduation to Aus..


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> Your boy Harper is responsible for ensuring Canada can't make vaccines domestically.


I guess you haven't read the latest news?


----------



## gibor365

From Liberal The Red Star


> The Quebec-based biotechnology company has been given $173 million in federal money, not only for 76 million doses of its vaccine, should it prove successful, but to build a vaccine-production facility that is expected to come online in 2024.


2024?! Nice!


----------



## james4beach

Pfizer is ramping up vaccine deliveries to Canada.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pfizer-doses-trudeau-target-1.5910524



According to Major General Dany Fortin, here is the upcoming delivery schedule of Pfizer shots. There are also millions of Moderna doses which I did not include:

Week of Feb 15: 403,000 (imminent)
Week of Feb 22: 475,000
Week of Mar 1: 444,000
Week of Mar 8: 444,000


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Pfizer is ramping up vaccine deliveries to Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pfizer-doses-trudeau-target-1.5910524
> 
> 
> 
> According to Major General Dany Fortin, here is the upcoming delivery schedule of Pfizer shots. There are also millions of Moderna doses which I did not include:
> 
> Week of Feb 15: 403,000 (imminent)
> Week of Feb 22: 475,000
> Week of Mar 1: 444,000
> Week of Mar 8: 444,000


Even if those assumptions are correct, there will be enough doses for about 1.3M people (out of 38M)...
Also, unknown what gonna be with administering vaccine, as Ontario said that they can deliver up to 40K vaccine per day....
I hope that my 75+ relatives gonna get vaccines this year


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> Even if those assumptions are correct, there will be enough doses for about 1.3M people (out of 38M)...
> Also, unknown what gonna be with administering vaccine, as Ontario said that they can deliver up to 40K vaccine per day....
> I hope that my 75+ relatives gonna get vaccines this year


It seems that Pfizer is promising to deliver 4 million shots by the end of March. Moderna is promising 2 million shots by the end of March.

By the end of March, that's 6 million shots which probably means the first shot for 6 million people. We know that a single shot starts to deliver some protection.

The way I see it, getting this FIRST shot in the arm is the most urgent task, since it starts providing protection. By the spring and summer, manufacturing is ramping up and there will be more than enough doses. So getting the second shot (eventually) will not be a problem. The big concern is the immediate doses, ASAP.

There are roughly 32M adults in Canada. Figuring that about 80% of people will want vaccinations, I guess we're aiming to vaccinate about 26M people. So by the end of March, there can be partial protection for 1/4 of the people who want to vaccinated.


----------



## Eder

It is better news than yesterday...hopefully theres no more excuses.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> It is better news than yesterday...hopefully theres no more excuses.


Well, Pfizer is the one who failed to deliver the supply. What is Canada supposed to do, exactly?

Let's see how the next few weeks go.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Well, Pfizer is the one who failed to deliver the supply. What is Canada supposed to do, exactly?
> 
> Let's see how the next few weeks go.


imho, it's easy to blame PFE ... everything is depends on term of contract... other countries (who are no EU member) got plenty of supply...
btw, same supply issue Canada had with Moderma


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> imho, it's easy to blame PFE ... everything is depends on term of contract... other countries (who are no EU member) got plenty of supply...


Nine European countries, plus Canada, have seen deliveries reduced, in the same timeframe.

Some countries got their full supply, but several others (including us) did not. Many countries are angry at Pfizer.









EU states warn of risks to vaccination credibility as Pfizer slows supplies


European governments said the credibility of their COVID-19 vaccination programmes was at risk on Friday after U.S. pharmaceutical firm Pfizer announced a temporary slowdown of deliveries of its vaccines.




www.reuters.com


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> It seems that Pfizer is promising to deliver 4 million shots by the end of March. Moderna is promising 2 million shots by the end of March.


I hope you're right, but if you look at the record so far, it's hard to be optimistic with the amount of shortfall. 

The government says it will receive the promised four million doses of the Pfizer vaccine by the end of March. Pfizer was supposed to deliver 1.15 million doses of its vaccine over the past four weeks, but instead Canada only received 339,000.

The next shipment of 168,000 doses from Moderna is planned to arrive the week of Feb. 22. That’s down from the 250,000 the government had originally expected.

Just looking at a chart of Moderna shipments and what they are short and expected to deliver in a months time. It's a lot to expect.












ltr


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> Maybe the answer is that despite all your bellyaching, when the chips are on the table you make the decision to live here and not there. Words don't match actions.


 ... and actions reveal the truth.


----------



## Beaver101

Just hope they give vaccination PRIORITY to ALL FRONTLINE health workers such as doctors, nurses,paramedics, dentists, PSWs, etc. (including those who live with them) with the early shipments and not privileging them to non-close living family, friends, colleagues, acquaintances, etc. such as those executive board members at a LTC!!!!


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> You do realize Gibor is as Canadian as you but with a different opinion? I didn't think so.


He has his choice of where to live. He chooses to live in Canada. Therefore, Canada must on balance be a better place to live in his estimation than Russia or Israel.


----------



## Beaver101

^ But the oddity(? for lack of a better or appropriate word) is Canada is not good enough for gibor.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Typical right wing response to call everything racist.
> 
> My point is that I hope you apply your values equally to people from all backgrounds. Not just those who happen to align with your own ideology (as Gibor does).


Hahahaha, that's pretty rich. 
You'll call people racist if they don't agree with your form of racism.

If the judgement is based on race, it's racist.
If it's based on actions/values, it isn't racist.

Honestly I don't get everyones obsession with race/gender, it really doesn't matter. Like most people who aren't crazy really don't care about that.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Even if those assumptions are correct, there will be enough doses for about 1.3M people (out of 38M)...
> Also, unknown what gonna be with administering vaccine, as Ontario said that they can deliver up to 40K vaccine per day....
> I hope that my 75+ relatives gonna get vaccines this year


You're being melodramatic. I don't see how it is possible that over 75s won't be vaccinated before summer.


----------



## Money172375

Looks like shortages are not just a Canadian challenge....









Dodger Stadium and 4 other COVID vaccine sites in L.A. to close temporarily, Garcetti says


Amid a shortfall of COVID-19 vaccines, Dodger Stadium and four other L.A.-run inoculation sites will be shut down temporarily, Mayor Garcetti says




www.latimes.com


----------



## Beaver101

^ It makes me wonder if there is a national database of where ALL the vaccines are coming in from and where it is going out to. How can the USA have a shortage of their own productions???


----------



## bgc_fan

Beaver101 said:


> ^ It makes me wonder if there is a national database of where ALL the vaccines are coming in from and where it is going out to. How can the USA have a shortage of their own productions???


I get the impression that it is more of a question of incoherent distribution plan. There's some wastage going on in certain states: Thousands of Covid doses went to waste, but some states won’t record how many

Part of it could have been alleviated by overbooking people, assuming that some will not show up like they do with airline tickets. Those who get "bumped" would be first in line the next day. At least, that would be how I would do it.

I think another factor is that Pfizer is saying that you can get 6 doses instead of 5, which is kind of messing up the dosage count, particularly if you need specific syringes to get 6 doses.


----------



## sags

Getting vaccines is political now. Every political leader wants to point to success at getting vaccines.

Who knows what Pfizer is listening to as the leaders call them......bribes, threats of regulation, pledges of future financial compensation ?

It appears they are manipulating the data for political reasons. How does anyone know that Israel has vaccinated the numbers they claim ?

Netanyahu is in a contested election. He is in court facing criminal charges.

It would not be a stretch for him to produce manipulated vaccine results to help his own political cause.

Ontario took over the data from the local health boards. It hasn't been accurate since they took over.

Trust but verify ? We can trust but nobody is verifying.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ^ It makes me wonder if there is a national database of where ALL the vaccines are coming in from and where it is going out to. How can the USA have a shortage of their own productions???


The US definitely has shortages. I posted the emails I'm getting from clinics in Oregon. They are apologizing to patients, they say they have NO doses available.

As pointed out above there are a lot of logistical challenges involved in this whole thing. It's a very complex situation.

I'm glad that we have a military guy at the top of the Canadian effort for logistics. This is the right idea.


----------



## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> I'm glad that we have a military guy at the top of the Canadian effort for logistics. This is the right idea.


In fairness, so does the USA: Coronavirus: Trump's Covid vaccine chief admits delivery mistake.


----------



## Eder

Every country in the world has shortages...in varying degrees. Its just that Canada's shortage is much more acute than most countries. The blame goes squarely on Trudeau. 

Buying 400 million doses but having vaxed only a bit over a million would be perfect fodder for a Seinfeld episode.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Eder said:


> Every country in the world has shortages.


Sure
If in the first few weeks of the vaccination drive, demand outstripped supply, since the data-for-doses deal between Israel and Pfizer, supply has begun to outstrip demand. Only 117,000 people were vaccinated yesterday - about half of Israel's proven capacity - with some clinics reportedly compelled to dump excess doses due to lack of customers.


----------



## like_to_retire

Ukrainiandude said:


> Sure
> If in the first few weeks of the vaccination drive, demand outstripped supply, since the data-for-doses deal between Israel and Pfizer, supply has begun to outstrip demand. Only 117,000 people were vaccinated yesterday - about half of Israel's proven capacity - with some clinics reportedly compelled to dump excess doses due to lack of customers.


I suppose Canada has an additional problem in its geography. The population is quite concentrated in a country like Israel, but in Canada we're quite spread out. I don't know if we will meet our goal of everyone vaccinated by Sept. 30. I suppose it's a calculated bet by the federal government to promise an almost impossible goal, that if not met will be the fault of the provinces.

Looking at some number of how many shots we'd have to give if we had a limitless supply of vaccine.

38 million total (population)

less - 7 million people (under age 16 not vaccinated)

less - 2 million people (1 million have single dose already and will be receiving second dose by end of March)

less - 3 million people (surveyed population who say they will refuse the vaccine)

= 26 million people remaining to vaccinate the require 2 doses between March 31 and Sept 30 (26 weeks)

So in 182 days, require 52 million shots = 285,714 shots a day for 6 months straight.


ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

That is quite a job ahead for the people in charge. I would think just the size of it would inspire more more understanding and patience, but being Canadians it seems to just end up being used as a form of criticism. One may argue the government is not being realistic about the program but I suspect it is more about setting the goal very high due to the urgency of the matter, then it is from any form or deceit or ignorance.

But that is just how I see the situation.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Interesting article on how a single dose vaccine with efficacy between 55% to 75% can produce less infections and deaths, in society, compared to a double dose vaccine that has a 95% efficacy.

Not sure precisely how their math came up with this but they are using an infection rate of 1.8 in their model and using 6 months as the time frame to tally up all the infections. I guess the idea is that by losing the 4 weeks that the double dose vaccine requires, it becomes more detrimental to fighting the pandemic, then the lower efficacy is with a single dose vaccine.

They said they gave some benefit of protection after the 1st dose of the 2 dose vaccine but I did not find out what amount they assumed. I am not sure I agree with all this since I am not truly convinced that 1 dose of a Pfizer vaccine is any worse then 1 dose of a Johnson and Johnson vaccine. I also believe that in our case, an infection rate of 1.8 is unlikely to happen, while we are aware of the threat of the virus. Currently we stand in and around 1.0.









Speed Versus Efficacy: Quantifying Potential Tradeoffs in COVID-19 Vaccine Deployment | Annals of Internal Medicine






www.acpjournals.org





So with a 1.0 infection rate and a little more benefit given after the 1st dose of the double dose vaccine, I am not sure I would agree with them, but I do understand that the time it takes to complete the vaccination role out is vitally important to saving lives. The time to jab people twice is taking a critical amount of extra time compared to jabbing them only once, and that time will cost many lives.


----------



## Eder

I love this line

_
Instead, it seems the most relevant variable is just that a lot of these other countries don’t have Trudeau in charge. 



https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/02/11/canada-vaccine-failures-justin-trudeau/?fbclid=IwAR3EspVT1poNNFCS5rUW_5gss2TV8I7yF4MR0AUWdpysgLEjd-A75wIpLdU


_


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> I love this line


These are purely political agendas.

Guys like you and @MrMatt are pretty much always complaining about Trudeau, just like the authors of these articles. It's your political agenda. I therefore can't take anything seriously from you or any of the right wing media .... I still remember how much complaining there was when we had amazing economic strength, the lowest unemployment rate in many decades.

Who could complain so much about record low unemployment? The conservatives always found a way.

Truth is, guys like @Eder and @MrMatt (who obviously just echo conservative media) complained just as much when Trudeau & the Liberal team were firing on all cylinders, with powerful economic results.

Their complaints, like conservative media, are not fair criticisms of reality. If they were, you'd hear positive reviews when Trudeau delivered excellent results. But that never happens.

When @Eder and @MrMatt can't find much to complain about, they also fall back on personal attacks against Trudeau...


----------



## Eder

Why not attack the article , why attack the person. It seems you are incapable of criticism toward Mr Socks. At any rate I'm sorry I upset you so.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> Why not attack the article , why attack the person. It seems you are incapable of criticism toward Mr Socks. At any rate I'm sorry I upset you so.


Fine, I'll focus on the author, J.J. McCullough. He has always whined about Trudeau. The history of this author shows that he is an unreliable source, because he's a biased partisan. He thinks everyone was against Harper and seems to carry a grudge against Trudeau.

Here he's complaining about how people were tough on Harper but easy on Trudeau
Here he's sounding kooky talking about a radical left
Another petty article about Trudeau being too popular, with vague economic complaints (2018)

I searched for his articles by year. This guy is only capable of writing complaints about Trudeau, and some economic criticisms that weren't well founded. By late 2018 and 2019 when Canada has record low unemployment, there isn't a single mention of this huge achievement of the Trudeau Liberals. He doesn't even mention economic or employment topics when Canada was at its peak.

Gee I wonder why? Those are the behaviours of a partisan who only exists to smear his political enemy. This guy hates Trudeau, just like you and @MrMatt do.

I *would* trust a journalist who has fair reporting of both positives and negatives of political parties. But this guy isn't a reliable journalist. He's just a partisan with one agenda.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> Why not attack the article , why attack the person. It seems you are incapable of criticism toward Mr Socks. At any rate I'm sorry I upset you so.


Easier to attack the messenger than the message.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Their complaints, like conservative media, are not fair criticisms of reality. If they were, you'd hear positive reviews when Trudeau delivered excellent results. But that never happens.


You're right.
Trudeau has been PM for a while, I'm still waiting for "excellent results".
Really has he done anything "excellent" as PM?

If you recall I actually did comment that his initial COVID19 briefing strategy was very good.

I complain when he's wrong, and commend him when he's right. The reason I don't like him, is because he is wrong much more often, and to a greater degree than he is right. 
Yes I think that he's personally a bad person. He doesn't seem to understand why ethics violations are a problem, I don't trust him, because he's shown himself not to be worthy of that trust.


----------



## gibor365

like_to_retire said:


> I suppose Canada has an additional problem in its geography. The population is quite concentrated in a country like Israel, but in Canada we're quite spread out. I don't know if we will meet our goal of everyone vaccinated by Sept. 30. I suppose it's a calculated bet by the federal government to promise an almost impossible goal, that if not met will be the fault of the provinces.
> 
> Looking at some number of how many shots we'd have to give if we had a limitless supply of vaccine.
> 
> 38 million total (population)
> 
> less - 7 million people (under age 16 not vaccinated)
> 
> less - 2 million people (1 million have single dose already and will be receiving second dose by end of March)
> 
> less - 3 million people (surveyed population who say they will refuse the vaccine)
> 
> = 26 million people remaining to vaccinate the require 2 doses between March 31 and Sept 30 (26 weeks)
> 
> So in 182 days, require 52 million shots = 285,714 shots a day for 6 months straight.
> 
> 
> ltr


Not exactly... Population in Canada also concentrated close to US border. 90% of Ontario population live in territory smaller than Israel. 
"285,714 shots a day for 6 months straight." - this actually what UK is doing now... Israel provide 150K daily, retarded Ontario said that on paper they can provide 40K vaccines daily.
Currenty they provide from 2K to 15K , so in 2-3 years maybe they gonna finish vaccination.
The major problem in Canada is corrupted and incompetent government and inferior medical system


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> The major problem in Canada is corrupted and incompetent government and inferior medical system


And that's not likely to change in the next 100 years so what does one do?


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> And that's not likely to change in the next 100 years so what does one do?


Why not?! It's up to us to change!


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> Why not?! It's up to us to change!


And how exactly do we start this change for the better?


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> I love this line
> 
> 
> _Instead, it seems the most relevant variable is just that a lot of these other countries don’t have Trudeau in charge.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/02/11/canada-vaccine-failures-justin-trudeau/?fbclid=IwAR3EspVT1poNNFCS5rUW_5gss2TV8I7yF4MR0AUWdpysgLEjd-A75wIpLdU
> 
> 
> _


A very good and precise article!
_JT ethics scandals are actually worse than the former president’s. 
When it comes to vaccines, however, there is far less ambiguity. In contrast to Britain and Israel, most European Union members, Serbia, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Turkey and even the perennial U.S. boogeyman, Canada is not vaccinating at anywhere near world-class levels. _


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> And how exactly do we start this change for the better?


First of all we're kicking out corrupted Liberals out of office next election


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Sure
> If in the first few weeks of the vaccination drive, demand outstripped supply, since the data-for-doses deal between Israel and Pfizer, supply has begun to outstrip demand. Only 117,000 people were vaccinated yesterday - about half of Israel's proven capacity - with some clinics reportedly compelled to dump excess doses due to lack of customers.


We lived many years in Israel and I'm not surprised at all that Israel behaves like NHL team and Canada like some house league LOL


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> First of all we're kicking out corrupted Liberals out of office next election


So we kick out corrupted Liberals and put in corrupted [insert any party here] ...ya, that'll work.


----------



## Money172375

Grey-Bruce (a district health unit in Ontario) says they can vaccinate 4,500 per day at their arena. They’ll be able to have 75% of their population (121,000) done in 3-4 weeks. I think once the shipments ramp up (which is this week), we’re going to see some good results.









Grey Bruce Health Unit unveils The Hockey Hub for mass vaccinations


By: The Sun Times




www.shorelinebeacon.com





this is one health district and one arena. Canada’s Wonderland is also offering their parking lot for drive through clinics. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...-as-mass-immunization-plans-ramp-up-1.5913005

I’m confident we’ll get a large part of the population done by Sept.


----------



## Eder

cainvest said:


> So we kick out corrupted Liberals and put in corrupted [insert any party here] ...ya, that'll work.


I'd settle for kicking out Justin and his bum buddies, you can leave a guy like Marc Garneau in charge...I'd be happy.


----------



## Eder

dup


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> So we kick out corrupted Liberals and put in corrupted [insert any party here] ...ya, that'll work.


If Russian people would think like you, they would be still having ruling Communist Party and USSR


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Grey-Bruce (a district health unit in Ontario) says they can vaccinate 4,500 per day at their arena. They’ll be able to have 75% of their population (121,000) done in 3-4 weeks. I think once the shipments ramp up (which is this week), we’re going to see some good results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grey Bruce Health Unit unveils The Hockey Hub for mass vaccinations
> 
> 
> By: The Sun Times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.shorelinebeacon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this is one health district and one arena. Canada’s Wonderland is also offering their parking lot for drive through clinics. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...-as-mass-immunization-plans-ramp-up-1.5913005
> 
> I’m confident we’ll get a large part of the population done by Sept.


So in the fall, if/when we get the vaccine, that health unit should be able to vaccinate quickly.

Also they're being pretty misleading, there is effectively no chance of them vaccinating 75% of the population any time soon.
Pick a date, April 1st? May 1st, June 1st, July 1st?
There is no way they'll vaccinate 121k residents by any of those dates. The health unit knows it.

There is no vaccine for ~20% of the population.
Of the 80% remaining, there is no way we'll have a >90% vaccination rate, unless the plan is to go door to door and forcibly inject people.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Whatever number they will be able to vaccinate is how many will get vaccinated.

I just don't understand why you guys seem to think that the people involved are not 100% committed to getting whatever vaccine they have into the arms of Canadians. I know you want to think the government is lying to us but why would they do that? It is not necessary and we are talking about a lot of people supposedly doing it. A lie is something they use to make Canadians happier then they would be, and I doubt the information they are giving us would make us feel much worse if you move the timelines out to where you see them to be more realistic.

So with that said, I suspect they know how to use a calculator and have probably looked up the size of the Canadian population by now, and everything after that is simply to begin and adjust the estimates up or down as reality unfolds. In the mean time they might even learn some useful tricks from others stumbling though this process before us. 

I really would have thought the vaccination period of this pandemic would have been on the happier side of it not the maximum whining portion.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> I know you want to think the government is lying to us but why would they do that?


Paint a rosy picture and get re-elected, then when the truth about how inept they were is realized, it won't matter.

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> Paint a rosy picture and get re-elected, then when the truth about how inept they were is realized, it won't matter.
> 
> ltr


Fair enough. New question. Why do we think they are not doing 100% of what they can do to get everyone vaccinated. Keep in mind, they don't have the benefit of hindsight, like we do and every action they take and every word they say will undergo tremendous scrutiny, most from very biased sources.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Whatever number they will be able to vaccinate is how many will get vaccinated.
> 
> I just don't understand why you guys seem to think that the people involved are not 100% committed to getting whatever vaccine they have into the arms of Canadians. I know you want to think the government is lying to us but why would they do that? It is not necessary and we are talking about a lot of people supposedly doing it. A lie is something they use to make Canadians happier then they would be, and I doubt the information they are giving us would make us feel much worse if you move the timelines out to where you see them to be more realistic.


Because Trudeau has been lying and mismanaging this whole time.
He lied when he said we didn't need masks, or travel bans.
He lied when he said we would ban non-essential travel. We might get mandatory quarantines later this month.
He lied when he said he was "confident" in the vaccine supply, mere hours before the shortages were announced.
He has access to the data showing a September vaccination target is impossible, but claims that it will happen anyway.




OptsyEagle said:


> So with that said, I suspect they know how to use a calculator and have probably looked up the size of the Canadian population by now, and everything after that is simply to begin and adjust the estimates up or down as reality unfolds. In the mean time they might even learn some useful tricks from others stumbling though this process before us.
> 
> I really would have thought the vaccination period of this pandemic would have been on the happier side of it not the maximum whining portion.


I think false statements that we'll be vaccinated by the end of summer are counter productive. 
There is currently no data that suggests the claim of all Canadians who want the vaccine will have it by the fall is possible. 
Look for yourself, where is the under 14 vaccine? When is it predicted to be approved in Canada?

The real problem is it destroys credibility in our leaders and experts. I had a low opinion of Trudeau, and it's lower now, it's also expanded to include Dr Tam, and many politicians I had at least some respect for. 
That's bad for our democracy.


Oh, and I'm sure that Trudeau will push to have the election before the target date to complete vaccinations.
If he loses he'll blame O'Toole for messing up the plans, if he wins, he'll have won the election, then find some way to "take responsibility", without actually taking responsibility.
Maybe he'll launch a parliamentary investigation to "find out" what went wrong, then prorogue parliament to kill the committee before they can present a report.



I'm happy they've moving forward on vaccination, I'm not happy that we're being lied to.


----------



## kcowan

Eder said:


> I'd settle for kicking out Justin and his bum buddies, you can leave a guy like Marc Garneau in charge...I'd be happy.


Yes Trudeau is the problem. Another leader might be better, surely could not be worse!


----------



## sags

Many of the deaths occurred in LTC homes, which are the responsibility of the Premiers......mostly Conservative Premiers.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Well, let's look at this from my perspective. I have no beefs with any politicians. They are all working pretty hard and they seem to understand the issues well enough.

As many may know, I rarely wait for the so called experts to direct us in the right direction. Almost all of my precaution and ideas come directly from the virus. For a small example of this, the virus told me many weeks before Dr. Tam did, that it could protect me, so I wore one.

Around last summer, after reading some negative articles on the difficulty of making a vaccine for the coronavirus, I decided to go to work on a plan, with respect to a "no vaccine" world. I won't waste your time on the details of my plan, since it pales in comparison to a simple vaccination, but I will tell you this. Since it was a plan wrought with difficulties, even for me, I knew that for the vast majority of the people in this world, it was not going to go very well for them. Millions more were going to die. Hospitals overwhelmed, many times over. You call 911 to get help for your wife who is currently having a heart attack and are simply told, give her two aspirins and don't call us in the morning. That kind of world. That is where this virus would eventually take us if we had no vaccine and wanted to go back to our old lives sooner then 10 or 20 years from now. One more issue is that whether we want this nightmare over sooner or not, we are forced to have it continue for a long time because people are still going to be cautious and therefore nightmare could not possibly end in a short period of time. We can't unknow what we know.

Then, in December we got word of the Pfizer vaccine. This stuff was not just sufficient, but its efficacy was in the "[email protected]" level of perfection. I couldn't have dreamed of such a fix. As I reviewed the data more and more I saw the roadblocks for the virus going up in every direction it might turn. Perfect. Check mate, as I like to call it.

I see this as more a time to rejoice. Be happy. The world will indeed be OK. That is how I see it. I really did not want to execute my no-vaccine plan. It was not a very good one, but it probably could have got me and my wife out of this mess as safely as it could be done, without a vaccine.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> Fair enough. New question. Why do we think they are not doing 100% of what they can do to get everyone vaccinated.


They _are _doing 100%, but they're simply not qualified for the job.

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> They _are _doing 100%, but they're simply not qualified for the job.
> 
> ltr


and what are those qualifications. I remember looking at my study options for college/university and I don't remember too many courses being offered on Pandemic Response.

Anyway, I will leave you to your opinions. That is what they are, mine included. At least we can see light at the end of the covid tunnel. That is a far cry further ahead then we were even 3 months ago.


----------



## gibor365

By number of fully vaccinated people Canada is on 45th place in the World! Great success LOL


----------



## Money172375




----------



## gibor365

Who could've imagine that Canada in New_vaccinations_smoothed_per_hundred would be behind countries like Bangladesh and Northern Cyprus LOL... It's even below that World average! What a shame!


----------



## Eder

So maybe if they start fining and throwing old people in jail it would deflect some of the heat?
We're all in this together!!


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> .... and what are those qualifications. I remember looking at my study options for college/university and I don't remember too many courses being offered on Pandemic Response.


Of course there are no specific qualifications to handle a pandemic, but I look for members of a party to have a history of accomplishments academically and in public affairs so they can at least hit the ground running. I see very little of that in the Federal government and it starts at the top with someone who wouldn't likely be Prime Minister save for his name and his good looks. Other than that, what are his qualifications? The poor results in the pandemic are obvious.

I'll give you an example that drew my attention in the last 2019 election. Lisa Raitt was a Member of Parliament and Conservative party former deputy leader, a former Minister of Transport, Minister of Labour, Minister of Natural Resources, former Finance Critic, Masters degree in Science, Lawyer and potential leadership candidate for the Conservative party. Everyone knows her accomplishments. She was running again in a riding west of Toronto against unknown Liberal Adam van Koeverden, who was an Olympic gold medalist in kayaking. Adam won the election handily. Not to take away from his qualifications, but they were in paddling. He was also, just like Trudeau, extremely handsome.

During the campaign, Raitt lamented in an iPolitics interview about how “virility” and “stamina” have become conflated with political competence and ability: “What am I going to do? I’m a fat woman over 50. I can’t compete in that,” she said.

This is what I mean by _"qualifications"._

ltr


----------



## gibor365

> I'll give you an example that drew my attention in the last 2019 election. Lisa Raitt was a Member of Parliament and Conservative party former deputy leader, a former Minister of Transport, Minister of Labour, Minister of Natural Resources, former Finance Critic, Masters degree in Science, Lawyer and potential leadership candidate for the Conservative party.


Lisa was running in Milton. My mom lives there and always voting for her. As per my mom, Lisa lost because of huge demographic change that happened in Milton in the last 10-15 years... Actually similar case happened in Mississauga , where for example, in our riding, we became visual minority


----------



## Eder

Pretty good stuff out of Israel from Pfizer

More than 400,000 Israelis have received both doses of the vaccine, and the country says that soon afterward only 63 people, or 0.014%, had contracted the virus. Those that received just one dose also appear to be significantly less likely to contract the virus, health officials said.

More study will be needed, but if the results hold up it suggests that the efficacy could be even better than the 95% the drugmaker reported.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> First of all we're kicking out corrupted Liberals out of office next election


Ontario is run by corrupt incompetent Conservatives.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> Pretty good stuff out of Israel from Pfizer
> 
> More than 400,000 Israelis have received both doses of the vaccine, and the country says that soon afterward only 63 people, or 0.014%, had contracted the virus. Those that received just one dose also appear to be significantly less likely to contract the virus, health officials said.
> 
> More study will be needed, but if the results hold up it suggests that the efficacy could be even better than the 95% the drugmaker reported.


Eder , you info a bit old 
As per Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations - Statistics and Research 2.53M Israelis got both doses (with 8M population). Our "amazing" Canada at 173,804 with 38M LOL


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Ontario is run by corrupt incompetent Conservatives.


Ford is a good man, but he's a bit stupid.... His alternative Andrea Horwath is a communist lunatic and mentally unstable... we just select less evil .... but I agree that ON is a retarded province.
What can we expect in this province if in 2 most populated Mississauga riding majority take 2 Islamists Omar and Iqra! This place is doomed!


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> Ford is a good man, but he's a bit stupid.... His alternative Andrea Horwath is a communist lunatic and mentally unstable... we just select less evil .... but I agree that ON is a retarded province.
> What can we expect in this province if in 2 most populated Mississauga riding majority take 2 Islamists Omar and Iqra! This place is doomed!


This could be a podcast ... Putin-loving ex cop shares his political analysis.

gibor honestly, Ezra Levant might give you a show. I think you speak their language!


----------



## gibor365

Ezra Levant is a good man!

In any case, Ontario continues its "amazing vaccine roll out" . Just 5,053 vaccines were administered today LOL.


----------



## gibor365

Looks like Canadians are starting to wake up








Most Canadians Blame Ottawa For COVID-19 Vaccine Delays, Poll Suggests


Nearly 70% believe the federal government is responsible for Canada falling behind on vaccinations, according to a new survey.




www.huffingtonpost.ca


----------



## sags

Canadians only want the best vaccine. They don't trust the Sputnik or Chinese vaccines.


----------



## sags

Big dump of vaccines coming. The question is if the Provinces can scale up the vaccinations.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Canadians only want the best vaccine. They don't trust the Sputnik or Chinese vaccines.


20% OK with Sputnik or Chinese vaccines... I'd get Sputnik any day , much better than AstraZeneca's and not worse than PFE or Moderma.
Even Merkel wants Sputnik for EU.


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Ford is a good man, but he's a bit stupid.... His alternative Andrea Horwath is a communist lunatic and mentally unstable... we just select less evil .... but I agree that ON is a retarded province.
> What can we expect in this province if in 2 most populated Mississauga riding majority take 2 Islamists Omar and Iqra! This place is doomed!


Ford isn't the brightest, but he's dramatically exceeded my expectations.
I think it's mostly because he knows he isn't the smartest person in the room, and is willing to listen, something very few leaders actually do.

Also i think there is still an Ontario Liberal party


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> Ford isn't the brightest, but he's dramatically exceeded my expectations.
> I think it's mostly because he knows he isn't the smartest person in the room, and is willing to listen, something very few leaders actually do.
> 
> Also i think there is still an Ontario Liberal party


I think Ford sounds dumber because he speaks like a normal human being answering a question. All other politicians attempt to figure out what is the answer that sounds the best and answer that way only...or... avoid the question. The latter will always sound smarter, but it definitely does not mean that it is.


----------



## Eder

gibor365 said:


> Looks like Canadians are starting to wake up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most Canadians Blame Ottawa For COVID-19 Vaccine Delays, Poll Suggests
> 
> 
> Nearly 70% believe the federal government is responsible for Canada falling behind on vaccinations, according to a new survey.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.huffingtonpost.ca


Makes you wonder what the other 30% of Canadians believe. Maybe the dingo ate the vaccines?


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> Makes you wonder what the other 30% of Canadians believe. Maybe the dingo ate the vaccines?


They think Trudeau is perfect and obviously if there are any problems, it's due to right wing extremists


----------



## moderator2

gibor365 said:


> What can we expect in this province if in 2 most populated Mississauga riding majority take 2 Islamists Omar and Iqra! This place is doomed!


gibor - you must back up your claim that these two members of the House of Commons are "Islamists". What is your evidence of this? (And I don't mean links to far-right propaganda websites)

These sound like racist/xenophobic comments from you meant to fuel hatred against Muslims. You have a history of posting anti-islamic comments on this board.

What is your evidence these these two members of the House of Commons are supporters of fundamentalist Islam? If you don't back this up, I am going to remove all related posts.


----------



## Money172375

Ontario claims they will be able to administer 160,000 does a day if the supply is available. Right now, they can do about 40,000 a day. Receiving 157,000 doses this week.









What will it take to trigger Ontario’s COVID-19 ‘emergency brake’? Health official says the province is still trying to figure that out


Ontario does not have firm criteria for invoking its COVID-19 “emergency brake” despite concerns about sudden surges of more contagious new variants, raising questions as to how well the fail-safe measure will work.




www.thestar.com


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Ontario claims they will be able to administer 160,000 does a day if the supply is available. Right now, they can do about 40,000 a day. Receiving 157,000 doses this week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What will it take to trigger Ontario’s COVID-19 ‘emergency brake’? Health official says the province is still trying to figure that out
> 
> 
> Ontario does not have firm criteria for invoking its COVID-19 “emergency brake” despite concerns about sudden surges of more contagious new variants, raising questions as to how well the fail-safe measure will work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thestar.com


They never do more than 15-16K so far....we'll see...
btw, this article doesn't mention 160K a day....where is your info from?


----------



## Eder

Not to split hairs but to be correctly used, Islam or Islamic should describe the religion and its subsequent cultural concepts whereas Muslim should only describe the followers of the religion of Islam.


----------



## gibor365

moderator2 said:


> gibor - you must back up your claim that these two members of the House of Commons are "Islamists". What is your evidence of this? (And I don't mean links to far-right propaganda websites)
> 
> These sound like racist/xenophobic comments from you meant to fuel hatred against Muslims. You have a history of posting anti-islamic comments on this board.
> 
> What is your evidence these these two members of the House of Commons are supporters of fundamentalist Islam? If you don't back this up, I am going to remove all related posts.


The first google hit ... if Bloc Québécois Leader Yves-François Blanchet (3rd biggest party in Canada) is standing by comments he made about Transport Minister Omar Alghabra earlier this month , I cannot tell the truth?!








Bloc leader doubles down on remarks about Transport Minister Omar Alghabra


OTTAWA - Bloc Québécois Leader Yves-François Blanchet is standing by comments he made about Transport Minister Omar Alghabra earlier this month that s...




www.thestar.com





1st google hit about Iqra (is Toronto Sun is right wing to you?!)








FUREY: Iqra Khalid story goes from bad to worse


The Jaspal Atwal affair is really a simple story for all of its up and downs. How did he get invited to an event in India that the PM would be at, even though…




torontosun.com





P.S. I'm not against Muslims among whom I have several friends, I'm against Islamists 
P.P.S. If you remove my comments, meaning that you are support Islamists


----------



## moderator2

gibor365 said:


> P.P.S. If you remove my comments, meaning that you are support Islamists


I appreciate you posting these references. Thanks. My job is keeping the discussions here civil. Cleaning up inappropriate posts is not endorsing any ideology.

I would like to avoid off topic political discussions. The topic of this thread is vaccines.

There should not be any nasty or hostile posts. Everyone, please keep the language clean.


----------



## gibor365

But don't you find that politics and vaccines distributions are linked?! I've already read conspiracy theories (not on CMF) why Israel has preference over Canada in getting vaccines  (you can understand is not "vaccine for data" or Israel paid more $$$ ones )

_I would like to avoid off topic political discussions. - _just to clarify... JT and Liberals cannot be blamed (or praised ) for vaccination failure on CMF ?! (this is kinda politics)

and constant personal attacks from user "james4beach " are OK ?!


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> They never do more than 15-16K so far....we'll see...
> btw, this article doesn't mention 160K a day....where is your info from?


I think the Star is having an error linking articles. When I now Google the headline, a different article comes up. The web address doesn’t match the article topic anymore. Anyway, I found it another way.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> Not to split hairs but to be correctly used, Islam or Islamic should describe the religion and its subsequent cultural concepts whereas Muslim should only describe the followers of the religion of Islam.


Well "Islamists" is a term that some use to identify those who more rigorously follow Islam.

Most moderate religious people realize that some religions have bad parts that should not be followed.

The problem is those extremists who follow the bad parts of whatever ideology (religious, political or other) that they happen to identify with.
They simply turn off the brain and follow leaders. Any leader with unquestioning followers is a danger.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> I think the Star is having an error linking articles. When I now Google the headline, a different article comes up. The web address doesn’t match the article topic anymore. Anyway, I found it another way.
> View attachment 21288


I found this number only in local Dryden news paper 
I wish it will happen, but I don't believe it


----------



## gibor365

Muslim supporters of Israel - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




I admire those Muslims!

and my favorite guy








Mohammad Tawhidi - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Eder

gibor365 said:


> and constant personal attacks from user "james4beach " are OK ?!


This is lol on another level...no offence!


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Well "Islamists" is a term that some use to identify those who more rigorously follow Islam.
> 
> Most moderate religious people realize that some religions have bad parts that should not be followed.
> 
> The problem is those extremists who follow the bad parts of whatever ideology (religious, political or other) that they happen to identify with.
> They simply turn off the brain and follow leaders. Any leader with unquestioning followers is a danger.


Islamism is a political ideology. It's antisecular.

The term is bandied about carelessly by some who don't understand the nuance of that definition. Many Muslims are not Islamist.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Islamism is a political ideology. It's antisecular.
> 
> The term is bandied about carelessly by some who don't understand the nuance of that definition. Many Muslims are not Islamist.


Exactly, it's about being "antisecular" as you say. I believe "islamist" refers to someone who believes in fundamentalist Islam and political power for fundamentalists.

We can easily draw a parallel with Christianity and this is much more relevant in Canada & US. There are in fact many politicians around us who are Christian fundamentalists, and believe in political power to enact their fundamentalist beliefs.

Stephen Harper is the most striking example. Harper is a Christian fundamentalist, very much like an "islamist". He even brought Christian fundamentalism directly into government by pursuing the Evangelical base, their agendas, and finding support in churches. Stockwell Day was another fundamentalist who mixed religion and politics.

*Harper is just like an islamist; the Christian analog*.

The other great example is the US Republicans and especially MAGA. Many of these people are Christian fundamentalists. In the videos of their attack on the Capitol, you will frequently see them stopping to pray. They smash some windows, beat a cop half to death, smear poop on the walls .... then stop and pray.

Fundamentalist beliefs are a big part of MAGA (which basically are the Republicans now). These people have spun Trump into their religious ideology, and you will hear them praying for Trump to come and help them fight evil / devils and bring salvation. Scary stuff!

Fundamentalists pushing their politics are very dangerous and have no place in our modern, civilized government. Countries which are governed by people like Harper and the Republicans are doomed.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Exactly, it's about being "antisecular" as you say. I believe "islamist" refers to someone who believes in fundamentalist Islam and political power for fundamentalists.
> 
> We can easily draw a parallel with Christianity and this is much more relevant in Canada & US. There are in fact many politicians around us who are Christian fundamentalists, and believe in political power to enact their fundamentalist beliefs.
> 
> Stephen Harper is the most striking example. Harper is a Christian fundamentalist, very much like an "islamist". He even brought Christian fundamentalism directly into government by pursuing the Evangelical base, their agendas, and finding support in churches.
> 
> *Harper is just like an islamist; the Christian analog*.
> 
> The other great example is the US Republicans and especially MAGA. Many of these people are . In the videos of their attack on the Capitol, you will frequently see them stopping to pray. They smash some windows, beat a cop half to death, smear poop on the walls .... then stop and pray.
> 
> Fundamentalist beliefs are a big part of MAGA (which basically are the Republicans now). These people have spun Trump into their religious ideology, and you will hear them praying for Trump to come and help them fight evil / devils and bring salvation. Scary stuff!
> 
> Fundamentalists are very dangerous and have no place in our modern, civilized government. Countries which are governed by people like Harper and the Republicans are doomed.


On the opposite, Countries which are governed by people like Trudeau and Liberals are doomed!
"*Harper is just like an islamist; the Christian analog*." -> absolute nonsense 
Tell us that Jewish guy Ezra Levant also Christian fundamentalists 
btw, among MAGA there are a lot of Jewish . the leader of SIOA , Pamela Geller is also Jewish...
_Fundamentalists are very dangerous and have no place in our modern, civilized government - _this is correct... and this is why I'm against Islamists and their supporters (see above)


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Many Muslims are not Islamist.


Nobody arguing with it! A lot of prominent Muslims are anti-Islamists... unfortunately "famous" Liberals Omar and Iqra aren't from this camp


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> "*Harper is just like an islamist; the Christian analog*." -> absolute nonsense


You're wrong about that. Harper is a direct parallel, in a different religion. He's a Christian fundamentalist who brings his Evangelical faith into government.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Then maybe you don't understand what islamist means. Harper is a direct parallel, in a different religion.


Nonsense again! You are telling to ex-cop and ex-IDF soldier who are Islamists?! Trudeau and Liberals are pure Islamist's supporters..
They are converting Canada to Islamist-friendly country!
Politics who are against Islamists , you are blaming in "Christian fundamentalism", regardless of their religion
With your views, it's so funny that you are moderator 2 and super moderator 
P.S. No wonder that all Canadian Islamists are voting for Trudeau


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> Nonsense again! You are telling to ex-cop and ex-IDF soldier who are Islamists?!


I said Harper is the Christian analog. I don't literally mean he's an Islamist.

Here's what I mean by analog:

Fundamentalist Islam in politics = islamist
Fundamentalist Christianity in politics = Harper and many Republicans
Fundamentalist Hindus in politics = Modi of India

I don't want any of the above. I think they are all dangerous. Islamists, Harper, Republicans, Modi.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> I said Harper is the Christian analog. I don't literally mean he's an Islamist.
> 
> Here's what I mean by analog:
> 
> Fundamentalist Islam in politics = islamist
> Fundamentalist Christianity in politics = Harper and many Republicans
> Fundamentalist Hindus in politics = Modi of India
> 
> I don't want any of the above. I think they are all dangerous. Islamists, Harper, Republicans, Modi.


The most dangerous is Trudeau and Liberals as they supports Islamists... I don't want any of them.
You're confused and brainwashed by Liberal propaganda...
If Harper would be Christian Fundamentalist , he wouldn't be the best friend of Israel.... All Israel admired him... also vast majority of Canadian Jewish voters - wouldn't be voting for him...

btw, Trump never was Christian Fundamentalist also... what Christian Fundamentalism when his daughter and son-il-law are Jewish?!


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> If Harper would be Christian Fundamentalist , he wouldn't be the best friend of Israel


You don't understand this aspect of Christian fundamentalism. The evangelicals have a deep religious belief about the role of Israel in the apocalypse. There is a prophecy of the end days in which Israel has a very special role. In fact, even the creation of Israel fits into fundamentalist Christian ideology; they believe that the existence of Israel brings them closer to the second coming of Jesus.

That's why they support Israel.

So yes, Christian fundamentalists generally do support Israel, but it's because it fits into a prophecy in the Bible.

In any case, I don't want ANY politician who uses their fundamentalist ideology in their politics. It's disgusting and dangerous.


----------



## james4beach

More relevant to this thread and to all of our health ... American Evangelicals tend to not like COVID vaccines or masks.









American evangelicals and the resistance to COVID vaccines | DW | 16.12.2020


Evangelical leaders in the US have helped sow distrust in public health professionals — and COVID-19 vaccines. But some church leaders within the ranks are confronting the resistance amid the coronavirus pandemic.




www.dw.com





This may turn out to be a problem in Alberta and across the prairies, and Quebec where there are Christian fundamentalists inspired by American churches.

A large Toronto anti public health rally (I watched the video) showed banners from several fundamentalist churches. I am hoping this problem won't persist, but it's also been reported as a problem in Quebec where some American pastors have been rallying against masks.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> You're wrong about that. Harper is a direct parallel, in a different religion. He's a Christian fundamentalist who brings his Evangelical faith into government.


I must have missed it.
What faith based policies did Harper bring in?
Were they "bad"?


----------



## OptsyEagle

Money172375 said:


> I think the Star is having an error linking articles. When I now Google the headline, a different article comes up. The web address doesn’t match the article topic anymore. Anyway, I found it another way.
> View attachment 21288


Even 40,000 per day will get this vaccination process almost over by the end of September. Maybe October. It depends on how many people want the vaccine. I am upping my estimate to around 80% of those eligible to get one. A little higher then I estimated before because I think younger people will see the benefits of vaccination (the more things they will be able to do, etc.) will outweigh the very low risk of the vaccine itself. It will also depend on actual results with respect to how transmissive one is after vaccination. My estimate on that, is not very transmissive but it would be nice to see some real life numbers on that.

If Ontario gets anywhere near 160,000 vacs. per day, they could probably be done before summer if they had enough vaccine. I also assume they will see the benefits of a single dose vaccine for lower risk age groups (younger). So we know where the bottleneck is. That is at least something.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> Even 40,000 per day will get this vaccination process almost over by the end of September.


I posted an estimate of shots per day required earlier in this thread and I came up with *285,714 shots a day* for 6 months straight. That doesn't really jive with your 40,00 estimate. Could you show some numbers as I have below.

Looking at some number of how many shots we'd have to give if we had a limitless supply of vaccine.

38 million total (population)

less - 7 million people (under age 16 not vaccinated)

less - 2 million people (1 million have single dose already and will be receiving second dose by end of March)

less - 3 million people (surveyed population who say they will refuse the vaccine)

= 26 million people remaining to vaccinate the require 2 doses between March 31 and Sept 30 (26 weeks)

So in 182 days, requires 52 million shots = 285,714 shots a day for 6 months straight. 

ltr


----------



## Retired Peasant

like_to_retire said:


> I posted an estimate of shots per day required earlier in this thread and _*I came up with*_ 285,714 shots a day for 6 months straight. That doesn't really jive with your 40,00 estimate. Could you show some numbers as I have below.
> ltr


Are you Ryan Tumilty?


----------



## Money172375

like_to_retire said:


> I posted an estimate of shots per day required earlier in this thread and I came up with *285,714 shots a day* for 6 months straight. That doesn't really jive with your 40,00 estimate. Could you show some numbers as I have below.
> 
> Looking at some number of how many shots we'd have to give if we had a limitless supply of vaccine.
> 
> 38 million total (population)
> 
> less - 7 million people (under age 16 not vaccinated)
> 
> less - 2 million people (1 million have single dose already and will be receiving second dose by end of March)
> 
> less - 3 million people (surveyed population who say they will refuse the vaccine)
> 
> = 26 million people remaining to vaccinate the require 2 doses between March 31 and Sept 30 (26 weeks)
> 
> So in 182 days, requires 52 million shots = 285,714 shots a day for 6 months straight.
> 
> ltr


J and J have a single dose vaccine....if that comes online in the spring, will make a big difference. Then again, if the vaccine is only good for 6 months, people will need their 3 shot of Pfizer or Moderna starting in 4 months.


----------



## like_to_retire

Retired Peasant said:


> Are you Ryan Tumilty?


No, but I didn't like his math so I changed it somewhat, but I sure got the idea from him. But make sure you attack the messenger rather than the content.

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> I posted an estimate of shots per day required earlier in this thread and I came up with *285,714 shots a day* for 6 months straight. That doesn't really jive with your 40,00 estimate. Could you show some numbers as I have below.
> 
> Looking at some number of how many shots we'd have to give if we had a limitless supply of vaccine.
> 
> 38 million total (population)
> 
> less - 7 million people (under age 16 not vaccinated)
> 
> less - 2 million people (1 million have single dose already and will be receiving second dose by end of March)
> 
> less - 3 million people (surveyed population who say they will refuse the vaccine)
> 
> = 26 million people remaining to vaccinate the require 2 doses between March 31 and Sept 30 (26 weeks)
> 
> So in 182 days, requires 52 million shots = 285,714 shots a day for 6 months straight.
> 
> ltr


At this stage my numbers are more general in nature since too many things can change.

Your numbers are very well done. It illustrates in vivid colour the "importance" of a single dose vaccine for the larger part of our population that do not require the same efficacy as our more vulnerable people do.

If you adjust your numbers for single dose for anyone under 65, you will start to see a dramatic improvement in completion dates. I can't say they will do it because it is dependent on vaccine availability (single dose vaccine) but it is a "no-brainer" for this pandemic. It would save many, many lives and I have no doubt our leaders can already see this.

In either case, I agree that September is a tough goal but not undoable, in my opinion. It just takes understanding of the issues, proper planning...and vaccine.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> If you adjust your numbers for single dose for anyone under 65, you will start to see a dramatic improvement in completion dates. I can't say they will do it because it is dependent on vaccine availability (single dose vaccine) but it is a "no-brainer" for this pandemic. It would save many, many lives and I have no doubt our leaders can already see this.
> 
> In either case, I agree that September is a tough goal but not undoable, in my opinion. It just takes understanding of the issues, proper planning...and vaccine.


I understand your point, but I hold no hope that everyone who wants to be vaccinated will be given both doses by the end of September. I would think closer to spring/summer 2022. I suspect cases will be much lower by then because of the many that are already vaccinated.

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> I understand your point, but I hold no hope that everyone who wants to be vaccinated will be given both doses by the end of September. I would think closer to spring/summer 2022. I suspect cases will be much lower by then because of the many that are already vaccinated.
> ltr


We are in full agreement. Your numbers helped me illustrate the importance of the single dose vaccine for the less vulnerable. Whenever I mention that, the obvious reaction would be "why would we vaccinate someone with something in the 70% efficacy when a 95% efficacy vaccine is available?"

If that was the only consideration then we would not use single dose vaccines. But once one looks at the larger picture and includes the number of people dying while they wait for a jab simply because the people before them require two jabs, one can start to see the larger benefit a single dose vaccine can offer in fighting a pandemic.

Thanks for making a reasonably complicated issue, due to the number of moving parts, more easy to understand for those that require simplicity.


----------



## cainvest

like_to_retire said:


> Looking at some number of how many shots we'd have to give if we had a limitless supply of vaccine.
> 
> 38 million total (population)
> 
> less - 7 million people (under age 16 not vaccinated)
> 
> less - 2 million people (1 million have single dose already and will be receiving second dose by end of March)
> 
> less - 3 million people (surveyed population who say they will refuse the vaccine)
> 
> = 26 million people remaining to vaccinate the require 2 doses between March 31 and Sept 30 (26 weeks)


Of those 26 million I wonder how many will be excluded due to allergic reactions or other conditions? 
Also, would those that already had covid need a shot soon?

In any case, once we can get the higher risk population a shot (or two) things will really start to look better overall.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Of those 26 million I wonder how many will be excluded due to allergic reactions or other conditions?
> Also, would those that already had covid need a shot soon?
> 
> In any case, once we can get the higher risk population a shot (or two) things will really start to look better overall.


I don't think the allergic reactions is a large number and I think they are working on them, as we speak. Perhaps adjusting dosage for them. I can't say for sure but we would like those people to be vaccinated.

The problem with past covid infections is that a variety of immune responses seemed to have taken place, with some having less then optimal response to new infections. This would probably also be explained by a difference in dose of infection, so for now, they are asked to vaccinate. It would be nice if we put them behind the other people who have never had any exposure to covid, but I won't whine about what they come up with. Also, when they study these past infections, they will no doubt have some people who have been exposed to the virus many times. Some probably well above 5 or 6 times (the stupidity of some people cannot be over-estimated). I have to assume those people's immune systems are on the solid response side of their numbers, but again, we probably do not know how many times anyone was exposed. That multiple exposure should act similar to the difference between 1 vaccine dose compared to 2 doses, in how they deal with the next one.

I should add here that for anyone that only gets a single dose vaccine. Even if you do get a little sick, upon exposure to active covid virus, it will only happen once. The covid infection WILL BE YOUR 2nd DOSE. You see what I mean and almost none of the single dose people will die and it would get this vaccination program completed many, many months earlier then if we demand the 2 dose vaccine for all.

Yes. I suspect you will see infections start to drop dramatically, and more importantly hospitalizations and deaths, in other areas of the world first and in Canada, around summer time solely due to vaccination.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> I don't think the allergic reactions is a large number and I think they are working on them, as we speak. Perhaps adjusting dosage for them. I can't say for sure but we would like those people to be vaccinated.


You can't "adjust" out allergies, it's not like a food intolerance.
You need a different vaccine that doesn't include the ingredient.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> You can't "adjust" out allergies, it's not like a food intolerance.
> You need a different vaccine that doesn't include the ingredient.


No argument. In any case, I believe they are working on it because of the importance of protecting this group AND for what it means to reducing the number of unvaccinated people walking around in our society.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> I don't think the allergic reactions is a large number and I think they are working on them, as we speak. Perhaps adjusting dosage for them. I can't say for sure but we would like those people to be vaccinated.


If their medical exclusion criteria is a very small number I doubt they'll put much focus on it for mRNA types. There are other vaccines already in use that may fit the bill for those excluded already, if we'll get any of those.

The main goal is to get vaccines to the vast majority of the population.


----------



## like_to_retire

This is probably the fastest way to test a vaccine, but let's hope they don't kill too many volunteers.

Covid-19: World's first human challenge trials to start in UK.

_"Healthy, young volunteers will be infected with coronavirus to test vaccines and treatments in the world's first Covid-19 "human challenge" study, which will take place in the UK."_

ltr


----------



## cainvest

Hopefully they'll get some good data out of that study.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> If their medical exclusion criteria is a very small number I doubt they'll put much focus on it for mRNA types. There are other vaccines already in use that may fit the bill for those excluded already, if we'll get any of those.
> 
> The main goal is to get vaccines to the vast majority of the population.


Sure. I am trying to look further out then just keeping people alive today. Of course, that is the first priority and it appears enough people are on that. The next issue is 2022, 2023 etc. How long will the immunity last and more importantly how will a person respond to the virus as their immunity declines in efficacy? One of the biggest unknowns in this question is what mutation will we be trying to fight off? The way I see it, is the number of mutations will be a function of the number of reproduced virus. So if 100Million Billion viruses reproduce and we can expect 1 mutation per year from that for example, then if you can get that number down to only 10 Million Billion active, it will happen 1 time per decade. The number of reproductions will be a function of the number of active infections and the number of active infections will be determined mostly by the number of people not vaccinated. Please don't use my numbers above, they are for illustration purposes only. Apart from that they are meaningless.

So we want all the people to get vaccinated. The bad news to add here is that once we resolve the issue of getting the maximum number of Canadians vaccinated we will then need to face the problem of getting the rest of the world vaccinated. Those mutations do not care where they grow and one day I have no doubt one might grow into something that could become much uglier then Covid-19. Covid-19 was a fairly benign virus that has managed to kill over 2 million people? What do you think a nasty one might do?

So that is where my thinking is at this stage of the fight.


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> This is probably the fastest way to test a vaccine, but let's hope they don't kill too many volunteers.
> 
> Covid-19: World's first human challenge trials to start in UK.
> 
> _"Healthy, young volunteers will be infected with coronavirus to test vaccines and treatments in the world's first Covid-19 "human challenge" study, which will take place in the UK."_
> 
> ltr


Awesome. I would love to know where these people come from and how their minds work but lets just say I am very glad to have them aboard. They are certainly a lot braver then I. A ton of useful information will be gathered from that. I just hope the cost is low with respect to any poor outcomes.

That said, I am a little surprised no one has championed a shout out or some kind of recognition for all the vaccine clinical volunteers that came forward that has now provided us all with some kick @ss vaccine. Not just one but a whole assortment of vaccines.

Anyway, if any of you are reading this...
Thank you.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Sure. I am trying to look further out then just keeping people alive today. Of course, that is the first priority and it appears enough people are on that. The next issue is 2022, 2023 etc. How long will the immunity last and more importantly how will a person respond to the virus as their immunity declines in efficacy? One of the biggest unknowns in this question is what mutation will we be trying to fight off? The way I see it, is the number of mutations will be a function of the number of reproduced virus. So if 100Million Billion viruses reproduce and we can expect 1 mutation per year from that for example, then if you can get that number down to only 10 Million Billion active, it will happen 1 time per decade. The number of reproductions will be a function of the number of active infections and the number of active infections will be determined mostly by the number of people not vaccinated. Please don't use my numbers above, they are for illustration purposes only. Apart from that they are meaningless.
> 
> So we want all the people to get vaccinated. The bad news to add here is that once we resolve the issue of getting the maximum number of Canadians vaccinated we will then need to face the problem of getting the rest of the world vaccinated. Those mutations do not care where they grow and one day I have no doubt one might grow into something that could become much uglier then Covid-19. Covid-19 was a fairly benign virus that has managed to kill over 2 million people? What do you think a nasty one might do?
> 
> So that is where my thinking is at this stage of the fight.


That's a lot of thinking ahead! Really we just need to deal with the battles at hand. If this becomes a woldwide thing of the past by 2022 great ... if not, work the problems as they come along.

I'm just looking forward to extremely little to no chance of getting infected by summer time so everyone can get back to "near normal" (albeit intl. travel may be out) lives in Canada.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> I would love to know where these people come from and how their minds work but lets just say I am very glad to have them aboard.


If I was in my early 20's I might have taken part in a study like that. I did a few during that time (for free) though nothing virus (or infectious) related.


----------



## like_to_retire

cainvest said:


> If I was in my early 20's I might have taken part in a study like that. I did a few during that time (for free) though nothing virus (or infectious) related.


Yeah, they don't usually run human challenge trials unless there's an effective treatment. In this case there's no reliable treatment for COVID, so it's a huge risk. But it sure can speed up results. 

In standard non-challenge trials as they've been running so far, I guess they have to make a lot of assumptions about where everyone has been and how much contact they've had, etc, etc. But with a challenge trial they have so much control because they infect the people with the virus and don't have to wait around until a few of the group pick it up somewhere. So much more efficient and dangerous with something like COVID.

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> That's a lot of thinking ahead! Really we just need to deal with the battles at hand. If this becomes a woldwide thing of the past by 2022 great ... if not, work the problems as they come along.
> 
> I'm just looking forward to extremely little to no chance of getting infected by summer time so everyone can get back to "near normal" (albeit intl. travel may be out) lives in Canada.


Sure. I am not losing sleep over it or anything, but what happens with the global vaccination program can have an affect on where this goes in the future. Not much I can do about it, but knowing something might be coming, in advance, tends to offer me the ability to see the signs of it quicker. Take precautions, that type of thing.


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, they don't usually run human challenge trials unless there's an effective treatment. In this case there's no reliable treatment for COVID, so it's a huge risk. But it sure can speed up results.
> 
> In standard non-challenge trials as they've been running so far, I guess they have to make a lot of assumptions about where everyone has been and how much contact they've had, etc, etc. But with a challenge trial they have so much control because they infect the people with the virus and don't have to wait around until a few of the group pick it up somewhere. So much more efficient and dangerous with something like COVID.
> 
> ltr


In my opinion, the main reason for this study is to answer the question many of us have wondered:

*"How infectious can a vaccinated person be?". *

We know the experts tell us that this vaccine cannot ensure that a vaccinated person is not infectious. That is of course true. I have mentioned many times that although any vaccinated person can be infectious, very few of them will be and the ones that are will not be infectious for very long.

Each time I say that the blowback from people requiring some expert to agree or some such thing has been quite abundant and quite aggressive. Not sure if anyone posted a picture of a garbage can again, relating to this opinion, but it certainly was not well received by anyone.

What I said is true. Infectiousness is directly related to how ill a person gets, since both come from the same viral activity and immune responses. What I can't tell you is how few exactly will be infectious and how much less time will the ones that are infectious, be. Without those answers, the answer I have doesn't seem to pacify anyone very much...and I can understand that. I suspect the vaccine manufacturers faced the same dilemma as me and hence, they have finally decided to get an answer to that most important question that everyone is asking them. It is one that is very important for us to find out.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> In my opinion, the main reason for this study is to answer the question many of us have wondered:
> 
> *"How infectious can a vaccinated person be?". *


Ummmm ... that first study has nothing to do with vaccines.


----------



## cainvest

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, they don't usually run human challenge trials unless there's an effective treatment. In this case there's no reliable treatment for COVID, so it's a huge risk. But it sure can speed up results.


Hgher risk for sure but the 20-29 risk of death in Canada is 0.1% for that age group. Of course for that stat they didn't break out if the people had other conditions that played a role.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Ummmm ... that first study has nothing to do with vaccines.


I was going on this information that I read in the article:

*



Healthy, young volunteers will be infected with coronavirus to test vaccines and treatments in the world's first Covid-19 "human challenge" study, which will take place in the UK.

Click to expand...

*


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> I was going on this information that I read in the article:
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> Healthy, young volunteers will be infected with coronavirus to test vaccines and treatments in the world's first Covid-19 "human challenge" study, which will take place in the UK.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *


Ahh yes, so often today media headlines don't match the actual story underneath.


----------



## gibor365

> Even 40,000 per day will get this vaccination process almost over by the end of September.


More chances that aliens/zombies gonna attack us or Putin capturing Canada that "vaccination process almost over by the end of September" 
ltr gave exact calculation that in normal country every middle-school student can do LOL


----------



## like_to_retire

I've read where people discuss which vaccine they would prefer.

I guess we don't get a choice. Is that correct?

How will they determine which area gets which vaccine once we have lots available?

ltr


----------



## gibor365

ltr, no body knows anything....we don't have digitized medical system and nobody doing anything to put order in place... I have many relatives 75+ with health conditions (include my mom and MIL)...their family doctor tells that she has no idea what is going on ....
James (4beach) gets letters (in his 20's) from Oregon clinic about estimation time, our seniors get NADA


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> James (4beach) gets letters (in his 20's) from Oregon clinic about estimation time, our seniors get NADA


Well I got generic newsletters from Oregon which just say: we don't have the vaccine, and we don't know when you might get it.


----------



## like_to_retire

gibor365 said:


> ltr, no body knows anything....we don't have digitized medical system and nobody doing anything to put order in place


I also wonder if they're using a certain vaccine (i.e. Pfizer) in an area and that type of vaccine suddenly becomes unavailable, yet they have another type vaccine (i.e. AtraZeneca) in abundance, will they route that different type of vaccine to where they're short even though it may not be the best for those people?

ltr


----------



## gibor365

like_to_retire said:


> I also wonder if they're using a certain vaccine (i.e. Pfizer) in an area and that type of vaccine suddenly becomes unavailable, yet they have another type vaccine (i.e. AtraZeneca) in abundance, will they route that different type of vaccine to where they're short even though it may not be the best for those people?
> 
> ltr


You are going too far , Our "amazing" Health Canada still didn't approve AstraZeneca vaccine , even though UK , EU and many other countries with better than Canada health system approved it long time ago. imho, Health Canada and "the top doctor" stupid Theresa Tam just pretending to work hard 

_But Public Health Ontario cautioned that the numbers are still at risk of misreporting due to ongoing issues with Toronto Public Health migrating over to the province’s single unified data management system. - _they migrating more than month and no one has even clue about real numbers...

Today our minister of health said that they back up from previously announced vaccination deadlines, as they have no idea what Trudeau "secured" on paper vaccines mean.

Couple of week ago james got letter from Oregon clinic that he (in his 20's) probably gonna get vaccine end of summer.... Our seniors got no ANY INFO and our family doctors knows nothing !!!!
P.S. I knew for a long tine that our Health System is inferior , but in reality it's hundred times worse!
No wonder that my friend (who is PhD in Medicine from UFT) went to Tunisia to have complicate surgery done .... she just doesn't trust OHIP

P.P.S Just talked to my wife and seriously, we'd pay $$$ to get Sputnik V.


----------



## gibor365

As per Coronavirus vaccine tracker: How many people in Canada have received shots?
SK administered 108.2% of vaccine they received! 
As per note _Saskatchewan has stated that its official distribution percentage is over 100% "due to efficiencies in drawing extra doses from vials of vaccine received." _
Maybe SK can teach this "magic" other provinces?!


----------



## Money172375

Reports that the Pfizer vaccine‘s efficacy is hurt by 2/3 against South African variant. Maybe a slow vaccine rollout will be a benefit if they need to fine- tune the vaccine composition.


----------



## like_to_retire

Money172375 said:


> Reports that the Pfizer vaccine‘s efficacy is hurt by 2/3 against South African variant. Maybe a slow vaccine rollout will be a benefit if they need to fine- tune the vaccine composition.


For sure I want the latest rev.

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> For sure I want the latest rev.
> 
> ltr


It's possible this issue will go on for quite a while (many many years). The problem with the 2/3rds number is it gives the impression that it worked for 1/3rd of the people and was a complete dud for 2/3rds. That of course is not precisely what it means. It simply means that 2/3rds more people got symptoms before their immune system destroyed the virus then what happened with the other variants.

Every time I see these "headline" news stories, designed to instill fear, I always ask the same question:

*"how sick did these 2/3rds get?"* and mainly, how long were they sick?

Of course not noticing that you were exposed to the virus, because your vaccine is working very well, is much better then being sick for a few days. That said, I would think that *the most important issue is whether you survive it or not.* I don't think these first mutations are going to put too many vaccinated people in the ground, but of course, there are many more mutations to come.

My advice: Right now, while you are completely un-vaccinated you are in your most vulnerable position, with respect to death. Therefore, you should *Accept the first dose of any vaccine offered *to expose your body to some aspects of this virus. That alone should keep you alive and it is the MOST IMPORTANT feature of the vaccine. Probably the one feature, however, that is the least reported. Another mystery of the mind.

Lastly, what does not kill you makes you stronger. You are now protected from that variant and will not get nearly as sick upon any future exposure to the same size of virus dose.


----------



## gibor365

> He also said that federal and provincial health experts are looking at evidence that one shot of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine against COVID-19 might be almost as effective as two. Njoo said data presented by two Canadian doctors in the New England Journal of Medicine this week are compelling.
> Dr. Danuta Skowronski from the British Columbia Centre for Disease Control and Dr. Gaston De Serres from the Institut national de sante publique du Quebec say data in the U.S. suggest the Pfizer vaccine was 92 per cent effective against COVID-19 two weeks after just one dose.


Maybe 1 shot is enough so more people can be vaccinated?


----------



## OptsyEagle

gibor365 said:


> Maybe 1 shot is enough so more people can be vaccinated?


That's really interesting.

It annoys me greatly how little effort, Pfizer and Moderna and probably the others, spent on finding out the true nature of what it was that they had developed. Would it have been that difficult to keep a few more people on the 1 dose to get more perspective on its efficacy. As you said, 1 dose compared to 2 is an astronomical difference when you are trying to jab 7 Billion people. A kid in grade 3 could have seen that from a mile away.

But no, Pfizer saw the 52%, after the 1st dose, and simply considered the financial aspects of a possible rejection and quickly said "hit em with another dose", when they really had no idea of the true effects of the efficacy of the 1st. It does take more time then they gave it to observe its true efficacy. All they saw were dollars, not lives, because if they were thinking of lives, they would have checked it out more closely, even when they had locked in their multi-billion dollar payday. You did not have to give one up to find out about the other.

I have said many times, from all the info I have come across, there is little difference in all the vaccines, except 2 suggest a double dose and the other 2 don't. There is no reason that I have seen that if the single dose doesn't work well enough that we can't simply "hit em with another dose".

I am telling you right now that if you are vulnerable, then you should take any shot of any of these vaccines that they offer. It will save your life.


----------



## sags

If I can't trust the vaccine against the variants, I will wait for the new improved shots.

No sense thinking you are safe when you aren't.


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> Maybe 1 shot is enough so more people can be vaccinated?


Guess you can always tell them you won't come back for the second shot.


----------



## cainvest

sags said:


> If I can't trust the vaccine against the variants, I will wait for the new improved shots.
> 
> No sense thinking you are safe when you aren't.


If you can steer clear of getting infected while you wait, why not.


----------



## gibor365

OptsyEagle said:


> That's really interesting.
> 
> It annoys me greatly how little effort, Pfizer and Moderna and probably the others, spent on finding out the true nature of what it was that they had developed. Would it have been that difficult to keep a few more people on the 1 dose to get more perspective on its efficacy. As you said, 1 dose compared to 2 is an astronomical difference when you are trying to jab 7 Billion people. A kid in grade 3 could have seen that from a mile away.
> 
> But no, Pfizer saw the 52%, after the 1st dose, and simply considered the financial aspects of a possible rejection and quickly said "hit em with another dose", when they really had no idea of the true effects of the efficacy of the 1st. It does take more time then they gave it to observe its true efficacy. All they saw were dollars, not lives, because if they were thinking of lives, they would have checked it out more closely, even when they had locked in their multi-billion dollar payday. You did not have to give one up to find out about the other.
> 
> I have said many times, from all the info I have come across, there is little difference in all the vaccines, except 2 suggest a double dose and the other 2 don't. There is no reason that I have seen that if the single dose doesn't work well enough that we can't simply "hit em with another dose".
> 
> I am telling you right now that if you are vulnerable, then you should take any shot of any of these vaccines that they offer. It will save your life.


Sure that for private companies better that everyone have 2 or more shots...
P.S. When Gilead invented vaccine when 1 shot fully treat sick person, they had a big financial trouble ,,, for pharmas companies is much better when you need to buy multiple shots every year ....capitalism


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> Guess you can always tell them you won't come back for the second shot.


When somebody is a vegetable in LTC they are not walking away 
For us, personally, 1 shot is enough as far as we can freely travel around the World


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> When somebody is a vegetable in LTC they are not walking away


True but they also won't have an opinion on one vs two shots so they go with the status quo.


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> True but they also won't have an opinion on one vs two shots so they go with the status quo.


In any case, the outcome will be the same LOL


----------



## james4beach

First shots give a person quite a bit of protection. If the choice is between having no shot, or a single shot, you're better off with a single shot.

From what I've heard so far, I think giving as many people as possible a single shot may be the safest way forward. This ties into vaccine availability. All the manufacturers are ramping up vaccine deliveries, aggressively. At the moment there is some limited supply, so the logical thing is probably to give as many people as possible ONE shot right now.

A couple months from now, we'll be rolling in vaccines since all the manufacturers are cranking up the machines. Canada has ordered huge numbers of doses, and once they start flooding in, we'll have limitless doses available.

My guess is, public health will decide to get as many single shots as possible into arms ASAP while doses are limited. A few months from now, we'll have more than enough shots, plus better logistics, so it will be quite easy to finish off the second shots.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> If I can't trust the vaccine against the variants, I will wait for the new improved shots.
> 
> No sense thinking you are safe when you aren't.


It's an individual choice. 

Definitely do not want to think one is protected when one is not but the other way of looking at this is, is it not better to have something that might and probably will save your life compared to knowing you have absolutely nothing that can can protect you. It is safe and no one says you can't take another shot later if it is found to be lacking in some area.

Very soon a lot of vaccinated people are going to want to start dropping precautions. If you find yourself being pulled towards that group you might want to have something to protect you more then your desire to limit the number of shots you take.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> First shots give a person quite a bit of protection. If the choice is between having no shot, or a single shot, you're better off with a single shot.
> 
> From what I've heard so far, I think giving as many people as possible a single shot may be the safest way forward. This ties into vaccine availability. All the manufacturers are ramping up vaccine deliveries, aggressively. At the moment there is some limited supply, so the logical thing is probably to give as many people as possible ONE shot right now.
> 
> A couple months from now, we'll be rolling in vaccines since all the manufacturers are cranking up the machines. Canada has ordered huge numbers of doses, and once they start flooding in, we'll have limitless doses available.
> 
> My guess is, public health will decide to get as many single shots as possible into arms ASAP while doses are limited. A few months from now, we'll have more than enough shots, plus better logistics, so it will be quite easy to finish off the second shots.


The problem with this now, is the age old issue of entitlement. In December, as soon as the government even suggested a single shot many people started whining "hey, where is my second shot?" They whined when the idea was to use the 2nd shot for someone else and replace it with vaccine that we currently did not have. They saw it as the government giving THEIR shot to someone else. It kind of shows the level of selfishness and entitlement many Canadians have, to even voice such a thing, but we are all Canadians after all. "I want that last 20% of protection, that I may never need and I don't care who dies for me to get it" That is what I heard from them anyway.

That is why I was excited to see the Astrazeneca and JNJ vaccines. We absolutely need single shot vaccines and it is unlikely we are going to make double shots into single shots against the manufacturer's advice. The data Gibor showed was interesting but may not be statistically valid enough for politicians to change the course of action. It's all political at this stage.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> If I can't trust the vaccine against the variants, I will wait for the new improved shots.
> 
> No sense thinking you are safe when you aren't.


If you think any vaccine will protect you against all variants, you're crazy.
Even if it's the correct match, vaccines still aren't 100%

You're not safe, no matter what you do, it's all about risk reduction, not elimination.


----------



## Beaver101

cainvest said:


> Guess you can always tell them you won't come back for the second shot.


 ... are you kidding me ... people like gibor says one thing but meant another.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> We absolutely need single shot vaccines and it is unlikely we are going to make double shots into single shots against the manufacturer's advice. The data Gibor showed was interesting but may not be statistically valid enough for politicians to change the course of action.


Since they are doing the highest risk people first it's a good idea to give them maximum protection with two shots. Even though others may question the makers stats on one vs two shots, two shots was what health Canada approved so they should stick with it.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Since they are doing the highest risk people first it's a good idea to give them maximum protection with two shots. Even though others may question the makers stats on one vs two shots, two shots was what health Canada approved so they should stick with it.


My plan right from the beginning was:

1) 2 dose vaccines for LTC residents, Healthcare workers, pre-existing conditions, older then 65
2) 1 dose vaccines for the remainder

all pretty much in that order.

The double dose could be useful to give the more vulnerable a little extra boost and that boost is also useful in reducing the infectiousness of healthcare workers. You can't have them infecting the people that come to see them that are experiencing some kind of health issue, at that time. That would be very bad timing for an infection. We can't have that.

Also, with this new Pfizer data on a single shot. I would like to know how old, the very few people that did obtain a symptomatic infection, were. This would either help confirm the suggestion above even though it may not be statistically able to do so. In any case, I think the extra time for the double dose, for those groups listed above, would be time properly spent.


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> When somebody is a vegetable in LTC they are not walking away
> *For us, personally, 1 shot is enough as far as we can freely travel around the World*


 ... yes, you can get your *beloved* Sputnik-V shot at your own expense.

Add: I would appreciate if the moderator cainvest NOT delete my post here again. If you do, then I suggest you delete gibor's posts too ...o/w it's clear you're biased and not fit to be a moderator.


----------



## cainvest

Beaver101 said:


> ... yes, you can get your *beloved* Sputnik-V shot at your own expense.
> 
> Add: I would appreciate if the moderator cainvest NOT delete my post here again. If you do, then I suggest you delete gibor's posts too ...o/w it's clear you're biased and not fit to be a moderator.


It was deleted because your response to his quote, that had nothing to do about you, was just unnecessary taunting. I don't read all posts here (unless reported) but ones I see like that, I delete. 

Anyways, back to our vaccines discussion.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> My plan right from the beginning was:
> 
> 1) 2 dose vaccines for LTC residents, Healthcare workers, pre-existing conditions, older then 65
> 2) 1 dose vaccines for the remainder
> 
> all pretty much in that order.
> 
> The double dose could be useful to give the more vulnerable a little extra boost and that boost is also useful in reducing the infectiousness of healthcare workers. You can't have them infecting the people that come to see them that are experiencing some kind of health issue, at that time. That would be very bad timing for an infection. We can't have that.
> 
> Also, with this new Pfizer data on a single shot. I would like to know how old, the very few people that did obtain a symptomatic infection, were. This would either help confirm the suggestion above even though it may not be statistically able to do so. In any case, I think the extra time for the double dose, for those groups listed above, would be time properly spent.


I'm glad you're not in charge.
I think until the data is available we should apply the vaccine as recommended and approved by the experts.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> I'm glad you're not in charge.
> I think until the data is available we should apply the vaccine as recommended and approved by the experts.


That is what I said. I am not suggesting using Pfizer or Moderna for single dose. At least not yet. That is why we desperately need the other single dose vaccines approved and obtained.

If we don't go with the current manufacturers suggestions the political backlash will make it almost impossible to use any vaccine.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I imagine most people heard of the revised vaccination schedule for Canada. The reason I post this is because you can see in the details the huge timeline difference that can be achieved by using a 1 dose vaccine compared to a 2 dose.









14.5M Canadians to be immunized by June, updated vaccination timeline shows


The federal government has released an updated COVID-19 vaccination timeline, showing that at least 14.5 million Canadians will be able to be immunized by the end of June with the approved Pfizer-BioNtech and Moderna shots.




www.ctvnews.ca





They have estimated 14.5 million Canadians can be vaccinated by the end of June using the 2 dose vaccines. That is *14.5 million Canadians fully vaccinated with 2 doses*. They go on to say that the number can be increased to *24.5 million Canadians fully vaccinated by the end of June if they can get some of the single dose vaccines.*

I don't know if they plan to do the most vulnerable with the 2 dose and the less vulnerable with the 1 dose, as I suggested above, but with the new information coming out of Israel about the benefits of the Pfizer vaccine with a single dose, I can't even say how important that really is. It means little to me because I already placed myself into the single dose group of Canadians.

Anyway, I post this stuff because I have no doubt it is coming and it helps if we have a more broad perspective on the issues involved that drive these decisions. I have no opinion on whether any of these vaccination objectives/schedules can or will be met. That was not the purpose of this post.

Lastly, so there is no doubt of the importance of this. This is one of those end game maneuvers. 24.5 million Canadians MEANS everyone, age 30 or older can be vaccinated against severe illness. It means game over for covid-19 deaths in Canada.


----------



## Money172375

I think the topic is valid.....vaccine tracking, rollout, new manufactures and approvals. Just need to get rid of the vitriol. We have a Politics thread.


----------



## andrewf

kcowan said:


> In case there are any Moderators here, this thread need to be deleted.


Maybe the trolls need a time out. I don't see why threads need to be locked because some people can't behave like mature adults.


----------



## moderator2

andrewf said:


> Maybe the trolls need a time out. I don't see why threads need to be locked because some people can't behave like mature adults.


I deleted posts that were off-topic / part of a personal argument.

This is a good discussion on vaccines and I'd like to keep this thread.


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## Money172375

Is it possible that Pfizer and Moderna have clauses in their contracts that directs the majority of their vaccines to harder hit countries. Ie. will sell you 5 million doses if your case load is XXX; we’ll sell you 2 million doses if it’s less than that? 

new cases in places like Israel, UK and US are still magnitudes higher than Canada.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Money172375 said:


> Is it possible that Pfizer and Moderna have clauses in their contracts that directs the majority of their vaccines to harder hit countries. Ie. will sell you 5 million doses if your case load is XXX; we’ll sell you 2 million doses if it’s less than that?
> 
> new cases in places like Israel, UK and US are still magnitudes higher than Canada.


From a moral perspective it would be the right way to do it.

I am just surprised someone has decided to start looking at the moral issue. We couldn't even do that in Canada when it came to deciding where we sent the 1st shipments of vaccine. I mean, did the Yukon really need vaccine so badly that it made any sense at all to leave elderly people exposed to Covid-19 in Toronto, while they waited for more vaccine????. Was that decision scientific or moral or perhaps a little political?

I do feel so sorry for the people that died simply because of the selfishness of human beings. What a waste.


----------



## gibor365

Optsy, good point! I also was surprised when saw that NWT, Yukon administered 30+% per 100 ppl... hence they practically don't have Covid at all..
Money, When contracts were negotiated , nobody really new what wil be when vaccines are ready for delivery...
imho, Pfizer and Moderna sells more vaccines to countries who pays more or give other incentive...
Russia and Chine have more political reasons, so they sell/give for free a lot to Mexico, South America, Asia... Russia is selling their vaccine to Hungary (EU member)


----------



## gibor365

I don't understand how Ontario will administer vaccine further .. it's easy with LTC, but what with non-LTC seniors... will they send letters with appointment date/time or seniors will nee to call vaccination centers or schedule via family doctors... Our family doctors don't have a clue what's going on


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> I don't understand how Ontario will administer vaccine further .. it's easy with LTC, but what with non-LTC seniors... will they send letters with appointment date/time or seniors will nee to call vaccination centers or schedule via family doctors... Our family doctors don't have a clue what's going on


Both I presume. I’ve read doctors will call out and there will also be call centres and websites to sign up. we only need to look at the UK, US and Israel for ideas.

the next phase may be easier. It’s easier to have people come to vaccine locations vs. Bringing the vaccine to people.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Both I presume. I’ve read doctors will call out and there will also be call centres and websites to sign up.* we only need to look at the UK, US and Israel for ideas.*
> 
> the next phase may be easier. It’s easier to have people come to vaccine locations vs. Bringing the vaccine to people.


 ... why? How did non-LTC seniors and the likes got their annual flu-shots (if they did)?


----------



## sags

They vaccinated all the residents in my wife's retirement home employer this morning.

They did it in place at the residence. It took about 3 hours to do 150 residents. It was the first shot.

They will come back for second shots. We are making progress......slowly.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Both I presume. I’ve read doctors will call out and there will also be call centres and websites to sign up. we only need to look at the UK, US and Israel for ideas.
> 
> the next phase may be easier. It’s easier to have people come to vaccine locations vs. Bringing the vaccine to people.


I just hope that in Ontario somebody is looking for ideas from other counties and has some vaccination plan....
but again (not sure about UK), Israel has fully digitized medical records system and it's much easier for them to setup priority list, hence prioritization should be not only per age (that can be just extracted from CRA), but also by underlying health condition... so I assume that Ontario Health should collect data from All thousands clinics and made queries per specific parameters.
With LTC is easier as there are all known (even per google search ) and mobile vaccination vans just need to go there and vaccinate everybody


----------



## sags

Donald Trump signed an EO the US companies couldn't ship vaccines out of the US.

Biden could have rescinded the order but apparently hasn't yet.

The government is spending money to ramp up Canadian production.

COVID shows how we can't rely on other countries for emergency PPE and vaccines.

We can create many jobs by requiring domestic manufacturing in strategic areas.

I also think Canada should look at drug patent protection and consider allowing generic drugs earlier.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> They vaccinated all the residents in my wife's retirement home employer this morning.
> 
> They did it in place at the residence. It took about 3 hours to do 150 residents. It was the first shot.
> 
> They will come back for second shots. We are making progress......slowly.


My mom and MIL live in rent-to-gear seniors apartments... it would be nice if mobile vaccination van will go to such homes and vaccinate seniors....but nobody is talking about it...imho, seniors living independently in such house are more vulnerable than LTC resident, as majority of them has to do essential shopping frequently


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> COVID shows how we can't rely on other countries for emergency PPE and vaccines.


Not really true... Israel , Serbia, Morocco, Chili , Bangladesh, Indonesia etc aren't EU countries, they don't manufacture vaccine, but thay have a very good vaccination rates comparing to Canada.


----------



## Beaver101

With posts like #390, I don't know why Ontario (funded by its taxpayers) created a Vaccination Task Force, headed by a (retired) General Rick Hillier.

And with posts like #392, I wonder how did these seniors managed to get their annual flu shots (if they did) ... did their doctors make the house-call? If so, I would prioritize the docs (or the healthworker giving out the shots) for the vaccine than the patients as imagine what these healthcare workers' risk exposure is like going to be like (unlimited?) going around giving these shots all over the places.


----------



## andrewf

In some ways, it does make sense to vaccinate remote areas like NWT and Nunavut because medical care is difficult to access and could easily be overwhelmed.


----------



## Money172375

andrewf said:


> In some ways, it does make sense to vaccinate remote areas like NWT and Nunavut because medical care is difficult to access and could easily be overwhelmed.


They are marginalized people with limited access to health care. I have no problem with them going early.


----------



## OptsyEagle

andrewf said:


> In some ways, it does make sense to vaccinate remote areas like NWT and Nunavut because medical care is difficult to access and could easily be overwhelmed.


Rule #1. No matter what the situation is and no matter who the people are and no matter how they act, one cannot get infected if no one around them has the virus.

There is no basis to vaccinate people in low outbreak areas BEFORE the vulnerable people in areas with the maximum active infections. 

These decisions were all political in nature. No scientist or medical doctor would have suggested such nonsense.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> There is no basis to vaccinate people in low outbreak areas BEFORE the vulnerable people in areas with the maximum active infections.
> 
> These decisions were all political in nature. No scientist or medical doctor would have suggested such nonsense.


Absolutely agree. We're vaccinating indigenous over seniors in crowded cities. So basically by race. And of course, prisoners also come first. All these people are in line ahead of vulnerable 85 years old's living in Toronto.

ltr


----------



## Money172375

OptsyEagle said:


> Rule #1. No matter what the situation is and no matter who the people are and no matter how they act, one cannot get infected if no one around them has the virus.
> 
> There is no basis to vaccinate people in low outbreak areas BEFORE the vulnerable people in areas with the maximum active infections.
> 
> These decisions were all political in nature. No scientist or medical doctor would have suggested such nonsense.


Not sure it was political....are they trying to get indigenous votes? Not to be cruel...but I don’t think indigenous issues carry a lot of weight for most voters.

this article claims indigenous are more vulnerable than most Canadians...but it’s from the CBC which some people will not agree with.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/indigenous-vaccination-rates-1.5917161


----------



## OptsyEagle

The political aspect here comes down to this point. If I was in charge in December, there would have been no vaccine sent to the Maritime provinces at all. Included with those would have been the Territories as well.

Now some of you probably live in those provinces, so once you read such a statement I imagine anger grows quickly. Why can't we get some protection? The virus could be anywhere? We have a couple infections. yada yada yada.

The political aspect of this issue is so ingrained people miss the most important point. Rule #1. You cannot get infected if no one around you is infected. Sure, there MIGHT be someone around you, but in Toronto, WE KNOW the virus is there. There all Canadians. Ontario, Yukon, Maritimes, all Canadian. Should we not be focused on saving as many Canadians as possible? If that is the only question, everyone of us would probably say yes ... right up until you find out that someone else is being protected ahead of you and then the answer changes to...no, that would not be fair. It is only being fair that we get some vaccine as well.

*This virus could care less about fairness*. If fairness mattered everyone would be as vulnerable as the next. Their last ditch argument then comes down to: Well healthcare is provincially run...so that somehow explains why we would allow one Canadian to die so another, that was not really threatened, can feel that we were being fair.

It's nonsense. But it is starting to be behind us. And it is not the only political nonsense our society deals with and thankfully it did not kill me, this time. It was someone else that I don't know.


----------



## gibor365

like_to_retire said:


> Absolutely agree. We're vaccinating indigenous over seniors in crowded cities. So basically by race. And of course, prisoners also come first. All these people are in line ahead of vulnerable 85 years old's living in Toronto.
> 
> ltr


Absolutely true!


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Not sure it was political....are they trying to get indigenous votes? Not to be cruel...but I don’t think indigenous issues carry a lot of weight for most voters.
> 
> this article claims indigenous are more vulnerable than most Canadians...but it’s from the CBC which some people will not agree with.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/indigenous-vaccination-rates-1.5917161


Last spring I read UK scientists research that most vulnerable are blacks and South Asians


----------



## gibor365

> You cannot get infected if no one around you is infected. Sure, there MIGHT be someone around you, but in Toronto, WE KNOW the virus is there. There all Canadians. Ontario, Yukon, Maritimes, all Canadian. Should we not be focused on saving as many Canadians as possible?


 "all Canadians" is mostly in theory! To be honest most Ontarians who travels frequently to US, NY state is more important than NWT or PEI , same for other provinces....


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> I don't understand how Ontario will administer vaccine further .. it's easy with LTC, but what with non-LTC seniors... will they send letters with appointment date/time or seniors will nee to call vaccination centers or schedule via family doctors... Our family doctors don't have a clue what's going on


Here’s a summary of how each province is rolling out vaccines. I’m sure you want more detail, but probably still too early to share.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/vaccination-vaccine-covid-provinces-territories-1.5920525


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Here’s a summary of how each province is rolling out vaccines. I’m sure you want more detail, but probably still too early to share.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/vaccination-vaccine-covid-provinces-territories-1.5920525


Sure! More details is needed ... this is kinda ballpark w/o any useful info


----------



## Eder

Well BC on Thursday, 12,250 people received the COVID vaccine, the single highest number of vaccinations administered in one day. That leaves about 360 days to finish at that rate.
Sunny ways!


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> Well BC on Thursday, 12,250 people received the COVID vaccine, the single highest number of vaccinations administered in one day. That leaves about 360 days to finish at that rate.
> Sunny ways!


Ontario had 21,295 today, the highest number ever ...700 more days and anyone here will get at least 1 vaccine  ...still sunny...we'll numbers next week


----------



## kcowan

Beaver101 said:


> ... why? How did non-LTC seniors and the likes got their annual flu-shots (if they did)?


This year it was chaotic. Our GP said he was not doing them so go to your pharmacist. We finally found a new pharmacy that had supply. We also got the pneumonia shots this year.


----------



## Beaver101

Here's the latest on vaccination logistics from TO, Ontario:

Pharmacists in Ontario are gearing up to help administer vaccines as inoculation ramps up in the province.

Yesterday I read that family doctors were to be participating but that headline is gone so could be a change of plan. I'm certain our bumbling (provincial) governments will eventually laid out the details and notify the public of the schedules ... after-all, a vaccination task force was created for that purpose.

I'm kind of surprised you can get pneumonia shots at a pharmacy as I get all my shots at my GP, under her directions. I guess you go where-ever the shot is available and most convenient for you. 

I know the TO Metro-Convention has already been set up (I think someone else already mentioned this) to do mass-innoculations. Now it's just waiting for the supply and prioritizing them ...


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> Here's the latest on vaccination logistics from TO, Ontario:
> 
> Pharmacists in Ontario are gearing up to help administer vaccines as inoculation ramps up in the province.
> 
> Yesterday I read that family doctors were to be participating but that headline is gone so could be a change of plan. I'm certain our bumbling (provincial) governments will eventually laid out the details and notify the public of the schedules ... after-all, a vaccination task force was created for that purpose.
> 
> I'm kind of surprised you can get pneumonia shots at a pharmacy as I get all my shots at my GP, under her directions. I guess you go where-ever the shot is available and most convenient for you.
> 
> I know the TO Metro-Convention has already been set up (I think someone else already mentioned this) to do mass-innoculations. Now it's just waiting for the supply and prioritizing them ...


I know everyone wants more details but Here’s the phase 1 plan. Patience for details. I think one of the keys is that rollout details will be different in each region. I think everyone is expecting a province wide rollout method.

*Phase 1: high-risk population vaccination*
*Timing*
December 2020 to March 2021
*Who will be vaccinated*
Early doses will be available for residents of:

long-term care homes
high-risk retirement homes
First Nations elder care homes
*Priorities for administering first doses of vaccines
Immediate priority*
Immediate priorities for first doses include:

staff, essential caregivers and any residents that have not yet received a first dose in:
long-term care homes
high-risk retirement homes
First Nations elder care homes

alternative level of care patients in hospitals who have a confirmed admission to a long-term care home, retirement home or other congregate care home for seniors
health care workers identified as highest priority, followed by very high priority, in the Ministry of Health’s guidance on Health Care Worker Prioritization (PDF)
Indigenous adults in northern remote and higher risk communities (on-reserve and urban)
*Next priority*
When all reasonable steps have been taken to complete first doses of the vaccine for all interested individuals in the immediate category, first doses will be available to the remainder of the Phase 1 populations.
This includes:

adults 80 years of age and older
staff, residents and caregivers in retirement homes and other congregate care settings for seniors (for example, assisted living)
health care workers identified as the high priority level in the Ministry of Health’s guidance on Health Care Worker Prioritization (PDF)
all Indigenous adults
adult recipients of chronic home care
*Rollout*
Vaccines have been delivered to all 34 Public Health Units and the model of delivery will vary depending on the region.
To vaccinate as many people, as quickly as possible, we are continuing to provide vaccinations in:

hospitals
on-site clinics for:
northern and remote First Nation communities
on-reserve Indigenous residents
adult chronic home care recipients

mobile sites for:
congregate living facilities
urban Indigenous communities


----------



## Spudd

I am fine with prisoners getting it ahead of the general population because I am sure that social distancing in prison is not practical.


----------



## like_to_retire

Spudd said:


> I am fine with prisoners getting it ahead of the general population because I am sure that social distancing in prison is not practical.


So you feel it's fair that criminals get the vaccine, but the prison guards do not.

ltr


----------



## gibor365

like_to_retire said:


> So you feel it's fair that criminals get the vaccine, but the prison guards do not.
> 
> ltr


+1 ... it's actually should be opposite as only guards can bring Covid to prisoners


----------



## Spudd

like_to_retire said:


> So you feel it's fair that criminals get the vaccine, but the prison guards do not.
> 
> ltr


My assumption would be (and I have no idea if I'm right) that guards are also on the early list along with prisoners. If not, I agree, they should be.


----------



## gibor365

_I am sure that social distancing in prison is not practical. - _they can go step further and vaccinate every suspect who was put into custody 








Prison guards need priority COVID-19 vaccinations, union says


OTTAWA - A union representing federal prison guards says vaccinating them against COVID-19 should be a priority, given their front-line role in correc...




www.thestar.com


----------



## like_to_retire

Spudd said:


> My assumption would be (and I have no idea if I'm right) that guards are also on the early list along with prisoners. If not, I agree, they should be.


So you feel it's fair that criminals should get the vaccine over an 85 year old who lives in the red zone of Peel municipality of Toronto, who is sure to succumb to COVID, where that young strong 25 year old prisoner would survive the virus?

ltr


----------



## Spudd

like_to_retire said:


> So you feel it's fair that criminals should get the vaccine over an 85 year old who lives in the red zone of Peel municipality of Toronto, who is sure to succumb to COVID, where that young strong 25 year old prisoner would survive the virus?


I'm not saying that. I just did not think they should be left until last just because they are prisoners, and I see some merit in putting them ahead of people of the same age who are not in prison, because in prison you cannot maintain social distance easily.

I was curious so I looked it up, and what the Corrections of Canada site says is that prisoners will be vaccinated according to the priority schedule the same as people in general public. I have no problem with this. Do you?





__





Correctional Service Canada COVID-19 Vaccine Roll-out - Canada.ca


Today, the Correctional Service of Canada (CSC) announced that it is beginning vaccination of older, medically vulnerable federal inmates against COVID-19 as part of the first phase of the vaccine rollout, as recommended by the National Advisory Committee on Immunization (NACI).




www.canada.ca


----------



## like_to_retire

Spudd said:


> I just did not think they should be left until last just because they are prisoners, and I see some merit in putting them ahead of people of the same age who are not in prison, because in prison you cannot maintain social distance easily.


We'll have to disagree. From what I've seen prisoners are jumping the line. The criminals chose to break the law and now they get the vaccine ahead of a law abiding citizen who will most likely die if they're over 70 years, and especially vulnerable are ones in red zones.

We are also prioritizing the indigenous people. I don't feel your race or your criminality should put you ahead of others. I feel it would be more fair to use age as the determining factor. No one is disputing all the front line workers - I'm just questioning those that come after that. 

So if I'm 79 years old, I feel I should qualify for the vaccine on the same day as a prisoner or an indigenous person at the same time.

ltr


----------



## Money172375

like_to_retire said:


> We'll have to disagree. From what I've seen prisoners are jumping the line. The criminals chose to break the law and now they get the vaccine ahead of a law abiding citizen who will most likely die if they're over 70 years, and especially vulnerable are ones in red zones.
> 
> We are also prioritizing the indigenous people. I don't feel your race or your criminality should put you ahead of others. I feel it would be more fair to use age as the determining factor. No one is disputing all the front line workers - I'm just questioning those that come after that.
> 
> So if I'm 79 years old, I feel I should qualify for the vaccine on the same day as a prisoner or an indigenous person at the same time.
> 
> ltr


Just enter a store without a mask...get arrested....spend a night or two in jail and get vaccinated.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Or for faster results, try jumping in front of a fast moving vehicle and see if you live after it hits you.


----------



## OptsyEagle

People. We walk down a very dark road once we attempt to make the decision on which life is more important then the other. If the science says the virus is there, and those lives are vulnerable, then fine, give them some vaccine, in proportion to their risk compared to all the others.

If we start trying to decide which life is deserving of vaccine and which is not, there are probably a lot more people out there that will be added to the list of people who should miss out...probably starting with me. lol


----------



## Beaver101

^ But you know, some people just has to go there. They need to exercise their right to "free speech" on this forum without ethical considerations.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Are you sure you found the right person on this thread that is not using ethical considerations?

Anyway, I don't post to make friends. I doubt my opinion above is overwhelmingly agreed with by many. I just thought it would not hurt to know more of the reasons that go into these decisions. Personally I couldn't care less what they decide with this particular issue.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> Are you sure you found the right person on this thread that is not using ethical considerations?


 ... no need for you to worry about this. They know who they are. 



> Anyway, I don't post to make friends.


 ... no doubt. Everyone has their own agenda when posting.



> I doubt my opinion above is overwhelmingly agreed with by many. I just thought it would not hurt to know more of the reasons that go into these decisions. Personally I couldn't care less what they decide with this particular issue.


 .. in which case consider yourself lucky that I responded.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Just enter a store without a mask...get arrested....spend a night or two in jail and get vaccinated.


Yeap! Easy way to get vaccinated


----------



## Eder

More good news for those that can get vaccines...

_*"The Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE Covid-19 vaccine appeared to stop the vast majority of recipients in Israel becoming infected, providing the first real-world indication that the immunization will curb transmission of the coronavirus. "*_
*
"If confirmed, the early results on lab-tested infections are encouraging because they indicate the vaccine may also prevent asymptomatic carriers from spreading the virus that causes Covid-19 "*

_








Pfizer-BioNTech Shot Stops Covid Spread, Israeli Study Shows







www.bloomberg.com




_


----------



## Eder

And this from the Wall Street Journal









Opinion | We’ll Have Herd Immunity by April


Covid cases have dropped 77% in six weeks. Experts should level with the public about the good news.




www.wsj.com





_*Some medical experts privately agreed with my prediction that there may be very little Covid-19 by April but suggested that I not to talk publicly about herd immunity because people might become complacent and fail to take precautions or might decline the vaccine. But scientists shouldn’t try to manipulate the public by hiding the truth. As we encourage everyone to get a vaccine, we also need to reopen schools and society to limit the damage of closures and prolonged isolation. Contingency planning for an open economy by April can deliver hope to those in despair and to those who have made large personal sacrifices.*_


_Dr. Makary is a professor at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine and Bloomberg School of Public Health, chief medical adviser to Sesame Care, and author of “The Price We Pay.”_


----------



## Money172375

Eder said:


> And this from the Wall Street Journal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion | We’ll Have Herd Immunity by April
> 
> 
> Covid cases have dropped 77% in six weeks. Experts should level with the public about the good news.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*Some medical experts privately agreed with my prediction that there may be very little Covid-19 by April but suggested that I not to talk publicly about herd immunity because people might become complacent and fail to take precautions or might decline the vaccine. But scientists shouldn’t try to manipulate the public by hiding the truth. As we encourage everyone to get a vaccine, we also need to reopen schools and society to limit the damage of closures and prolonged isolation. Contingency planning for an open economy by April can deliver hope to those in despair and to those who have made large personal sacrifices.*_
> 
> 
> _Dr. Makary is a professor at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine and Bloomberg School of Public Health, chief medical adviser to Sesame Care, and author of “The Price We Pay.”_


the US may indeed be the first to herd immunity......considering it says that up to 2/3 of people have had the virus. I guess when you lead in cases and deaths you‘ll get there first. they have almost triple the # cases as the #2 country and almost double the number of deaths as the #2 country. Great way to save the herd. USA! USA!


----------



## OptsyEagle

Money172375 said:


> the US may indeed be the first to herd immunity......considering it says that up to 2/3 of people have had the virus.


That is because getting into this problem is more about stupidity, then anything else, but getting out of the problem appears to be a function of money and power.

I did mention a while back that the US will start to see a significant improvement, in Covid infections, a considerable time before Canada and we need to prepare for some of the issues that will produce in our country.


----------



## Money172375

Well...this is the week to test provincial rollout processes. Over 600,000 doses arriving this week.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Well...this is the week to test provincial rollout processes. Over 600,000 doses arriving this week.


We got 400,000 last week and so far so bad...Ontario administered below 13K ... Nasty PFE LOL


----------



## Eder

Looks like we have dropped to 58th in vaccination progress. Pretty hard to drop any further.


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> We got 400,000 last week and so far so bad...Ontario administered below 13K ... Nasty PFE LOL


You mean 13k per day right?


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> You mean 13k per day right?


Yeap ... 2 days ago it was 20K , then 14K or so and today 13K


----------



## milhouse

Watched a news segment which discussed the possibility that supply could outstrip demand in the States by April. 
Pure speculation on my part but I would guess/hope that some extra supply could start getting redirected to Canada by May (??). 



Eder said:


> Looks like we have dropped to 58th in vaccination progress. Pretty hard to drop any further.


To state the obvious, damn supply problems. Shouldn't be surprising as the feds were hinting at this early on as they were likely late in the game in signing agreements. IMO, a good follow-up benchmark will be where we're at by end of March. In the mean time, the provinces should work out their shots in arm delivery process so there's no bottleneck.


----------



## gibor365

> Pure speculation on my part but I would guess/hope that some extra supply could start getting redirected to Canada by May (??).


 Why?! Because they like Trudeau?! More chances that you will be able to fly to US and pay for vaccine Or some private companies (like Medcan) can buy vaccine and administer shots for $ in Toronto. I'd go for any option.


----------



## milhouse

lol, I don't think it's about "liking Trudeau". It's known that the feds have a contract with Pfizer and Moderna but with quarterly timelines and being supplied out of Europe. 
It may take some combo of (political) influence and cash but if Pfizer and Moderna are meeting their commitments to the States, I can see some of the delivery timelines moved up with surplus production from the States.


----------



## james4beach

milhouse said:


> Pure speculation on my part but I would guess/hope that some extra supply could start getting redirected to Canada by May (??).


Large new supplies are already being delivered to Canada, now. There are expected to be a record number (all time high) number of doses delivered THIS week.

Much of the implementation of delivering doses is up to the provinces, of course.









Canada to receive record 640K vaccine doses this week with Pfizer, Moderna deliveries


Canada is poised to receive a record number of COVID-19 vaccine doses this week thanks to scheduled deliveries from Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna, as the country looks to speed up its vaccination efforts.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## milhouse

james4beach said:


> Large new supplies are already being delivered to Canada, now. There are expected to be a record number (all time high) number of doses delivered THIS week.
> 
> Much of the implementation of delivering doses is up to the provinces, of course.


As the article states, it's part of catching up to meet original Q1 committments. Call me skeptical, but the numbers are possibly elevated as well with the agreement to consider the vials containing 6 doses instead of 5 versus how consistently 6 doses can be extracted. I think the hope is to try to move the needle (pun intended  ) on the end of September "everyone who wants a shot, will have been able to get a shot" target.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> the US may indeed be the first to herd immunity


I hope they get herd immunity through vaccination, not through infections. Having enough people in society get infected _does_ achieve herd immunity, but only after it wipes out all vulnerable people. The US just hit a milestone of 500,000 deaths, horrific.

This has been an absolute catastrophe in the US. It's 167 times as bad as the 9/11 deaths ... probably the greatest disaster in American history.

What also blows my mind is that many Americans are totally unwilling to accept the seriousness of the situation. The US office that I used to work in still has some employees coming in, on most days (even though they can work from home). Two weeks ago they actually held an *office party *with at least a handful of people in attendance, food, and a live band.

And no, they don't have vaccinations.

It's this kind of thinking that has killed hundreds of thousands of them, and will kill hundreds of thousands more Americans in the months to come.


----------



## Money172375

its crazy in the US. I’m starting to feel we’re at the opposite spectrum. I’ve read Ontario is one of the most locked down areas in the world. Toronto has been locked down (most aggressive level on a multi-scale program) since nov. 23. It’s been 3 months.
thankfully I live about 90 mins away and things are open a little here. Had dinner indoors at a restaurant that allowed 8 guests. 2 tables of four. Members of same family together. No border hoppers allowed.

the 3 months though is intense!! I hadn’t realized that Toronto has been in that zone since nov 23.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> its crazy in the US. I’m starting to feel we’re at the opposite spectrum. I’ve read Ontario is one of the most locked down areas in the world. Toronto has been locked down (most aggressive level on a multi-scale program) since nov. 23. It’s been 3 months.
> thankfully I live about 90 mins away and things are open a little here. Had dinner indoors at a restaurant that allowed 8 guests. 2 tables of four. Members of same family together. No border hoppers allowed.
> 
> the 3 months though is intense!! I hadn’t realized that Toronto has been in that zone since nov 23.


Can you share what kind of restrictions you experience in Toronto? I am unfamiliar with that situation and curious what it means.

What are the kinds of things which are not possible to do, but you wish you could be doing?

Is it possible to go shopping?


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> What are the kinds of things which are not possible to do, but you wish you could be doing?
> 
> Is it possible to go shopping?


If I list things that are not possible to do in GTA, but I wish I could be doing (and did pre-Covid), it would be extremely long list .
Practically , I cannot do anything except going to groceries store .... so I'm trying to compensate and going to still opened stores 3 times more freq than pre-Covid



> I’m starting to feel we’re at the opposite spectrum. I’ve read Ontario is one of the most locked down areas in the world.


Yes, we are....even comparing to other Canadian provinces! This is crazy!


----------



## andrewf

Money172375 said:


> its crazy in the US. I’m starting to feel we’re at the opposite spectrum. I’ve read Ontario is one of the most locked down areas in the world. Toronto has been locked down (most aggressive level on a multi-scale program) since nov. 23. It’s been 3 months.
> thankfully I live about 90 mins away and things are open a little here. Had dinner indoors at a restaurant that allowed 8 guests. 2 tables of four. Members of same family together. No border hoppers allowed.
> 
> the 3 months though is intense!! I hadn’t realized that Toronto has been in that zone since nov 23.


It has not honestly been that big of a deal. But my livelihood does not depend on people engaging in activities likely to spread infection, so I might be biased. Not getting a haircut in three months is starting to get old though!


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> Can you share what kind of restrictions you experience in Toronto? I am unfamiliar with that situation and curious what it means.
> 
> What are the kinds of things which are not possible to do, but you wish you could be doing?
> 
> Is it possible to go shopping?


Most stores are closed for indoor shopping, unless they are grocery stores or pharmacies. I haven't bought anything curbside or online since before Christmas, so it must not be that big of a deal. Of course, I have pretty much everything I need.

I think the biggest problem is boredom.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Most stores are closed for indoor shopping, unless they are grocery stores or pharmacies. I haven't bought anything curbside or online since before Christmas, so it must not be that big of a deal. Of course, I have pretty much everything I need.
> 
> I think the biggest problem is boredom.


You guys are thinking only about buying groceries ?!
Just to start ...

Me and my wife twice weekly volleyball league was cancelled ling time ago
My wife's skating club (4 times per week practices + competitions) is closed
Steamul (Russian Banjas (saunas)) place is not allowed to operate. We were going there every week. Owner probably gonna go bankrupt (btw, similar venues are operating in other provinces)
No dining inside restaurants
No night bars (and yes, we were going there )
Muskoka winter resort we were going every winter is closed
Cross country skiing in Mono is closed
etc etc etc

Luckily we were able to get last fall 2 beautiful Siberian forest kittens


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Most stores are closed for indoor shopping, unless they are grocery stores or pharmacies. I haven't bought anything curbside or online since before Christmas, so it must not be that big of a deal. Of course, I have pretty much everything I need.


I didn't realize store closures were this extensive.

Let's say you have some furniture at home that breaks, and want to go to Ikea to buy a new table. Is that possible to do, or is Ikea closed?

How about essentials at Canadian Tire. Can one go and buy essential tools and hardware?


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> I didn't realize store closures were this extensive.
> 
> Let's say you have some furniture at home that breaks, and want to go to Ikea to buy a new table. Is that possible to do, or is Ikea closed?
> 
> How about essentials at Canadian Tire. Can one go and buy essential tools and hardware?


IKEA is closed, Canadian Tire, home Depot, Sport Check are closed. Even PetSmart is closed. Gyms are closed............everything is freaking closed...
Even sometimes to buy food in Superstore or drinks in LCBO you have to wait in line for 20-30 minutes.... GTA became like USSR !
P.S. In Florida even strip clubs are essential service


----------



## Money172375

Plus the social limits. In Toronto, technically against the law to gather indoors or outdoors with members outside your household. There is a stay-at-home order in effect.

we just moved to the next level down...the red zone....indoor gatherings still limited to 5. Outdoors 25.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> I didn't realize store closures were this extensive.
> 
> Let's say you have some furniture at home that breaks, and want to go to Ikea to buy a new table. Is that possible to do, or is Ikea closed?
> 
> How about essentials at Canadian Tire. Can one go and buy essential tools and hardware?


They are closed for indoor shopping, but still doing curbside. Not sure how that works for IKEA.


----------



## Money172375

andrewf said:


> They are closed for indoor shopping, but still doing curbside. Not sure how that works for IKEA.


Ontario’s Rt creeping above 1.00. Wave 3 on its way.


----------



## Money172375

Day 1 in York region which just allowed some indoor shopping.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1363997341871706119


----------



## cainvest

Money172375 said:


> Day 1 in York region which just allowed some indoor shopping.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1363997341871706119


It's funny how everyone shows pics of the "busy hours" and whine about how bad the line ups are. In reality, many stores you can go into during off times and almost nobody is in there.

With vaccines rolling out it's only going to get better but it'll take some time.


----------



## Eclectic12

andrewf said:


> They are closed for indoor shopping, but still doing curbside. Not sure how that works for IKEA.


Seems pretty much the same as CT, HomeDepot etc.

Place one's order online, wait for an email that the order is ready for pickup, park in the designated spot, text or call and the order is brought out to the car.
IIRC, North York IKEA was one of the ones that 24x7 collection lockers were added to in December.

Home delivery is usually also an option.


Cheers


----------



## gibor365

Today again just 16K were administered in Ontario... Looks like their capacity up to 20K regardless of vaccine supply


----------



## sags

Ontario is really messing up vaccinations, because they aren't following the protocol like other Provinces.

They are only now working on a website for appointments and working on a vaccination plan.

WTF have they been doing ? The other Provinces are already vaccinating older people.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/seniors-covid-19-vaccinations-ontario-1.5917487


----------



## sags

Gibor is right..........Doug Ford is a screwball.

He failed to protect LTC homes, failed the vaccinations, and there is now a story that links him to shady homes for kids.

His supporters were only concerned about "buck a beer".

We would have been better off with the NDP.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Ontario is really messing up vaccinations, because they aren't following the protocol like other Provinces.
> 
> They are only now working on a website for appointments and working on a vaccination plan.
> 
> WTF have they been doing ? The other Provinces are already vaccinating older people.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/seniors-covid-19-vaccinations-ontario-1.5917487


I was telling about it for months, even in this thread! Complete mess!
However, Hospital PR executives, staff on the leave etc got vaccine first, in early January.








Why some hospital PR executives and staff on leave have received COVID-19 vaccines before front-line staff


As thousands of front-line workers remain susceptible to COVID-19, some researchers, public relations executives and hospital staff on leave have already been vaccinated as health officials speed up immunization efforts.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Gibor is right..........Doug Ford is a screwball.
> 
> He failed to protect LTC homes, failed the vaccinations, and there is now a story that links him to shady homes for kids.
> 
> His supporters were only concerned about "buck a beer".
> 
> We would have been better off with the NDP.


Not true...with NDP it would be much worse ... LTC homes were screwed for decades ... The problem not with Ford, but with whole system (esp. medical system) , OHIP, province public services and so on.. Too many incompetent government workers.
What could you expect if even simple data migration from Toronto to Ontario Health took 1 month and all reported data was incorrect...
Or when every single vaccine in Ontario counted as double .


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Ontario is really messing up vaccinations, because they aren't following the protocol like other Provinces.
> 
> They are only now working on a website for appointments and working on a vaccination plan.
> 
> WTF have they been doing ? The other Provinces are already vaccinating older people.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/seniors-covid-19-vaccinations-ontario-1.5917487


 ... according to that article, it states:



> ... _Rick Hillier, chair of Ontario's COVID-19 vaccine distribution task force, said last week that a website and telephone hotline will be available at the beginning of March where seniors can make appointments to get their vaccine near their homes. There are about 500,000 seniors above 80 years of age living in the community in Ontario, and the province hopes to vaccinate at least 100,000 in March.
> 
> The province has said logistics for how these seniors will be vaccinated are still being worked out, but that some seniors could expect to hear from their primary care physicians at the beginning of March_. ...


According to this latest article:

Province's 34 public health units must design, carry out their own COVID-19 vaccination plan, Ford says


I think Doug Ford needs his staff to communicate better with Ontarians on that plan, starting with ON's Health Minister Ms. Elliott.


----------



## sags

Ford made a bad healthcare situation much worse.

He cut healthcare funding and eliminated LTC home audits.

What did he think was going to happen ?

I doubt the NDP could manage to be worse.









UPDATE: Mounting Health Care Cuts - Ontario Health Coalition


List of the Ford government health care cuts to date: Cut OHIP+ so families with sick children will have to seek private coverage first and pay




www.ontariohealthcoalition.ca


----------



## gibor365

For us , the best priority now somehow to organize vaccines to my mom and MIL, 75+ with health conditions...


----------



## MrBlackhill

andrewf said:


> Most stores are closed for indoor shopping, unless they are grocery stores or pharmacies. I haven't bought anything curbside or online since before Christmas, so it must not be that big of a deal. Of course, I have pretty much everything I need.


Here in Quebec everything was closed except grocery stores and pharmacies but then there's a curfew from 8 PM to 5 AM. Everything closed between those hours unless it's an hospital or it's delivery. Even grocery stores and pharmacies.

You could not go out between 8 PM and 5 AM.

I usually go to grocery stores late but now I had to change my schedule to go to the grocery store between 6:30 PM and 7:30 PM (that's the hour they close so that everybody can go back home).

I'm currently doing renovations at my home and I can't live there during those renovations. I'm traveling 1h30 between both houses. But due to the curfew at 8 PM and since I'm not ready to leave at 6:30 PM I must do the traveling in the morning at 5 AM.

That being said, they noticed that the curfew was much more useful than closing stores, so now they are slowly reopening stores while maintaining the curfew.

It's the first time Quebec has a curfew since WWII.


----------



## cainvest

MrBlackhill said:


> That being said, they noticed that the curfew was much more useful than closing stores, so now they are slowly reopening stores while maintaining the curfew.


That interesting how they worked that out. So during the curfew any type of store can be open and sell anything?


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrBlackhill said:


> That being said, they noticed that the curfew was much more useful than closing stores, so now they are slowly reopening stores while maintaining the curfew.


That's because those stores were never driving this pandemic nor are schools. Perhaps a few asymptomatic infections but overall that was not where they were coming from. If the spike at Christmas, and then the downturn a month after, cannot point you in the right direction, then I don't think I can help you. How loud does the virus have to yell it to us?

I have said, so many times, the solution to this pandemic is very simple. We know everything we need to know. The virus told us:

1) Stop social gathering indoors and ensure proper precautions are used in workplaces 100% of the time including breaks and lunches.
2) Vaccinate as many people as possible starting with the vulnerable.

_Any questions?_


----------



## MrBlackhill

cainvest said:


> That interesting how they worked that out. So during the curfew any type of store can be open and sell anything?


No, only restaurants, grocery stores and pharmacies. Only essentials can be sold for delivery.

In fact, it's pretty funny to see, but when you would enter a store during the day, only items considered essentials can be sold, other sections are closed.


----------



## MrBlackhill

OptsyEagle said:


> 1) Stop social gathering indoors and ensure proper precautions are used in workplaces 100% of the time including breaks and lunches.


Yup, that's exactly why the curfew worked out well. Most of the new infections were due to indoor gatherings and parties between friends in the evening after work. With a curfew at 8 PM, it's pretty restrictive for those gatherings.


----------



## Eder

I think much Covid policy in force today is a result of submitting to hysterical citizens wanting something done. More locked down than ever even though Covid cases are disappearing and the curves have not only been flattened but inverted.


----------



## gibor365

OptsyEagle said:


> That's because those stores were never driving this pandemic nor are schools. Perhaps a few asymptomatic infections but overall that was not where they were coming from. If the spike at Christmas, and then the downturn a month after, cannot point you in the right direction, then I don't think I can help you. How loud does the virus have to yell it to us?
> 
> I have said, so many times, the solution to this pandemic is very simple. We know everything we need to know. The virus told us:
> 
> 1) Stop social gathering indoors and ensure proper precautions are used in workplaces 100% of the time including breaks and lunches.
> 2) Vaccinate as many people as possible starting with the vulnerable.
> 
> _Any questions?_


Not sure that are numbers of new covid cases are going down because of lockdowns, Russia has no any lockdown, even big sporting events (like soccer or figure skating) are full of fans, all stores and restaurants are open and number of active case are significantly down like here (to tell the truth they also vaccinated much more people, almost everyone who wants can get one of 3 available vaccine)


----------



## OptsyEagle

No, the main reason infections are going down is because Christmas is so social that people probably don't mind taking a break from it for a while. That is my guess anyway. Whether the infections start going back up or not we will see. That welcome break won't last forever. In any case we know that indoor gatherings is a massive problem with controlling infections so anything that helps in that area is good policy. All other policies are pretty much a distraction. Might help a little but probably not a lot.


----------



## cainvest

MrBlackhill said:


> No, only restaurants, grocery stores and pharmacies. Only essentials can be sold for delivery.
> 
> In fact, it's pretty funny to see, but when you would enter a store during the day, only items considered essentials can be sold, other sections are closed.


We had the same here but no curfew. Once they shutdown buying of non-essential items our numbers started to drop significantly.

I guess they just have to adjust the rulebook based on what the local population is doing. Most people here in MB got the message when non-essentials were removed but in Quebec they had to take an additional step with the curfew.


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> Not sure that are numbers of new covid cases are going down because of lockdowns, Russia has no any lockdown, even big sporting events


Russia is a dictatorship and they are probably faking the numbers.

Putin manipulates the picture to make himself look like the big strong leader. In Russia, it's impossible to question the state numbers ... horrible dictatorship under a horrible man.

Putin is such a weak, sensitive man that he has had plastic surgery to make himself look younger. Maybe he thinks he can become a beautiful supermodel. Such a coward and pitiful man.


----------



## gibor365

james, you want to tell that Russia didn't lie when numbers were big and suddenly started lying when numbers became better?! LOL
I have many relatives who live in 3rd biggest Russian city and perfectly know what is Covid picture there. 
My aunt 6-7 years younger than my mom, and she (my aunt) had a choice which vaccine to select .
P.S. I believe Trudeau less than I believe Putin


----------



## gibor365

_Putin is such a weak, sensitive man that he has had plastic surgery to make himself look younger - _Trudeau pained his face black to make himself look African-American LOL


----------



## gibor365

As per reports "supply problems" ended in Canada, but still Ontario administered only 17K per day!
In the World Canada is on 60th place (together with Sri Lanka) in daily vaccination per 100 ppl and on 58th place in total vaccination per 100 ppl....
Pathetic ...................


----------



## Beaver101

Ontario's online vaccine appointment portal to open on March 15; people ages 80+ will start receiving shots during 3rd week of March

Above details the time-line for Ontario, Canada vaccinations ... right from Ret. Gen. Rick Hillier's mouth.


----------



## gibor365

Bibi (Israeli PM) posted


> I spoke with my friend, CEO of Pfizer Albert Borla last night, and we agreed that there will be a sequence of supply of Pfizer vaccines without any shortage and without any break. Also from Moderna we get more and more vaccines. Go get vaccinated!
Click to expand...




> *Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, this evening, at a special update on the issue of vaccines:*
> 
> "In recent weeks I have held 17 conversations with my friend Pfizer Chairman and CEO Albert Bourla. The last conversation was held in the past 24 hours. This evening I am excited to inform you about a tremendous breakthrough that will pull us out of the coronavirus and get us back to life. We will be the first country in the world to emerge from the coronavirus.
> 
> The agreement that I have made with Pfizer will enable us to vaccinate all citizens of Israel over the age of 16 by the end of March and perhaps even earlier, meaning that we will vaccinate the entire relevant population and everyone who wants to will be able to be vaccinated.
> 
> The historic vaccines operation will be called 'Getting Back to Life', and in the coming days we will publish the order of vaccinations for Operation Getting Back to Life.











PM Netanyahu at a Special Update on the Issue of Vaccines


This website provides government information and enables users to perform government-related transactions online




www.gov.il




Israel at 89% COVID-19 vaccine doses administered per 100 people 

Justin, where the Hell are you hiding?! LOL


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> As per reports "supply problems" ended in Canada, but still Ontario administered only 17K per day!
> In the World Canada is on 60th place (together with Sri Lanka) in daily vaccination per 100 ppl and on 58th place in total vaccination per 100 ppl....
> Pathetic ...................


I don’t think the supply issues are quite over yet. According to this, Ontario has administered 88% of the supply received. I heard they hold back 10% to be used in yet unknow hot spots.


----------



## Money172375

Seems like Toronto isn’t reporting vaccine numbers? They should easily be #1, but I can’t find any data.


----------



## gibor365

Beaver101 said:


> Ontario's online vaccine appointment portal to open on March 15; people ages 80+ will start receiving shots during 3rd week of March
> 
> Above details the time-line for Ontario, Canada vaccinations ... right from Ret. Gen. Rick Hillier's mouth.


people ages 80+ will start receiving shots when Israel is gonna vaccinate whole country LOL.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Seems like Toronto isn’t reporting vaccine numbers? They should easily be #1, but I can’t find any data.


They are still migrating there data LOL


----------



## gibor365

Curious why Ret. Gen. Rick Hillier was appointed as the head of the vaccine task-force for Ontario ?!
Probably because he studied biology at "top notch" Memorial university  

*World Rank*606*National Rank*23
and for 1 year went on to command the Multi-National Division (South-West) in Bosnia-Herzegovina.


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> people ages 80+ will start receiving shots when Israel is gonna vaccinate whole country LOL.


Keep in mind, Israel has half the population of Ontario and Ontario is 5 times larger in size. But I would fly to Israel if I could.


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> Curious why Ret. Gen. Rick Hillier was appointed as the head of the vaccine task-force for Ontario ?!
> Probably because he studied biology at "top notch" Memorial university
> 
> *World Rank*606*National Rank*23
> and for 1 year went on to command the Multi-National Division (South-West) in Bosnia-Herzegovina.


He’s an expert in logistics.


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> people ages 80+ will start receiving shots when Israel is gonna vaccinate whole country LOL.


 ... and so what's your point here? No one is stopping you from leaving this country.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Keep in mind, Israel has half the population of Ontario and Ontario is 5 times larger in size. But I would fly to Israel if I could.


But I'm talking about vaccination per 100 people .... nothing to do with population ...
Let's look at total numbers
Ontario administered 602,848 
Israel (with half the population of Ontario) 7.7 Millions

_Ontario is 5 times larger in size - _but remember that 80-90% of Ontario is uninhibited


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> He’s an expert in logistics.


So far it doesn't look like this


----------



## sags

The Ford government has everyone sufficiently confused now, so Doug can head off to the cottage.


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> But I'm talking about vaccination per 100 people .... nothing to do with population ...
> Let's look at total numbers
> Ontario administered 602,848
> Israel (with half the population of Ontario) 7.7 Millions
> 
> _Ontario is 5 times larger in size - _but remember that 80-90% of Ontario is uninhibited


Yes, but almost everyone in Israel is 2 hours from Jerusalem. Big difference moving supplies and vaccines within Ontario where it could be almost a full day by car from Windsor to Thunder Bay.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Yes, but almost everyone in Israel is 2 hours from Jerusalem. Big difference moving supplies and vaccines within Ontario where it could be almost a full day by car from Windsor to Thunder Bay.


Driving by car from Windsor to Thunder Bay is 13 hours, from Golan Heights to Eilat 6+ hours.... but why do you need to drive?! We should have planes, don't we?!
P.S. I;m surprised that you're kinda justifying that Canada is about 60th place in the World  ... Russia has territory much bigger than Canada (and it's inhibited) and everyone can get vaccine now


----------



## gibor365

Beaver101 said:


> ... and so what's your point here? No one is stopping you from leaving this country.


Assume that I'm posting from Jerusalem... SHALOM Beaver101 LOL
but still people ages 80+ in Ontario will start receiving shots when Israel is gonna vaccinate whole country


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> Driving by car from Windsor to Thunder Bay is 13 hours, from Golan Heights to Eilat 6+ hours.... but why do you need to drive?! We should have planes, don't we?!
> P.S. I;m surprised that you're kinda justifying that Canada is about 60th place in the World  ... Russia has territory much bigger than Canada (and it's inhibited) and everyone can get vaccine now


In the end, history will record the number of deaths.....nobody will be talking about who got vaccinated first. I’m ok with our response. Could it be better,.....sure. But we’ve handled the pandemic better than most.


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> Driving by car from Windsor to Thunder Bay is 13 hours, from Golan Heights to Eilat 6+ hours.... but why do you need to drive?! We should have planes, don't we?!
> P.S. I;m surprised that you're kinda justifying that Canada is about 60th place in the World  ... Russia has territory much bigger than Canada (and it's inhibited) and everyone can get vaccine now


Canada likes giving up the early lead.  









Summit Series - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org









__





1987 Canada Cup - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> Assume that I'm posting from Jerusalem... SHALOM Beaver101 LOL
> but still people ages 80+ in Ontario will start receiving shots when Israel is gonna vaccinate whole country


 .. you do realize the USA is going to surpass everyone on its vaccination rate.

So what's your point still even you want me to assume you're posting from Jerusalem (Hai) or Moscow or Cuba .. you just have to wait your turn here in Canada or in your case in Mississauga after July 1st. 

If you don't want to do that, then like I suggested in my other post, disguise yourself as an old-geezer and jump the queue to take a shot somewhere in the USA (closest to Ontario) ... and pay for the hotel quarantine or maybe not, just that $830 fine on return .. peanuts. Do you dare?


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Canada likes giving up the early lead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Summit Series - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1987 Canada Cup - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org








1981 Canada Cup - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





8 : 1 to Soviets in final


----------



## gibor365

_ you have to wait your turn here in Canada or in your case in Mississauga after July 1st. -_ Do you mean after July 1st 2022?!
When US would be offering vaccine for $, it's very likely we'll go there


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> _ you have to wait your turn here in Canada or in your case in Mississauga after July 1st. -_ Do you mean after July 1st 2022?!
> When US would be offering vaccine for $, it's very likely we'll go there


 ... for someone who's so eager to get the shot - I would think you would have read that link I posted earlier. Guess not ... yes. you can take your turn in year 2022 if you wish to.

You can still get the vaccine in the US if you " really" want to to pay, I'm sure.


----------



## gibor365

Beaver101 said:


> ... for someone who's so eager to get the shot - I would think you would have read that link I posted earlier. Guess not ... yes. you can take your turn in year 2022 if you wish to.
> 
> You can still get the vaccine in the US if you " really" want to to pay, I'm sure.


I don't want to pay but I don't believe any promises of our governments (as per your links)...
They didn't even start to vaccinate LTC personal ... 80+ seniors , in theory , will be able to start registering Mar 15 (I'm sure it would be delayed)....what to talk about generally healthy 50+ ?!


----------



## andrewf

MrBlackhill said:


> Here in Quebec everything was closed except grocery stores and pharmacies but then there's a curfew from 8 PM to 5 AM. Everything closed between those hours unless it's an hospital or it's delivery. Even grocery stores and pharmacies.
> 
> You could not go out between 8 PM and 5 AM.
> 
> I usually go to grocery stores late but now I had to change my schedule to go to the grocery store between 6:30 PM and 7:30 PM (that's the hour they close so that everybody can go back home).
> 
> I'm currently doing renovations at my home and I can't live there during those renovations. I'm traveling 1h30 between both houses. But due to the curfew at 8 PM and since I'm not ready to leave at 6:30 PM I must do the traveling in the morning at 5 AM.
> 
> That being said, they noticed that the curfew was much more useful than closing stores, so now they are slowly reopening stores while maintaining the curfew.
> 
> It's the first time Quebec has a curfew since WWII.


I think the curfew was a bit absurd and unnecessary.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> people ages 80+ will start receiving shots when Israel is gonna vaccinate whole country LOL.


My 94 year old grandfather received his second dose a couple weeks ago. He lives in an assisted living apartment attached to a LTC.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> My 94 year old grandfather received his second dose a couple weeks ago. He lives in an assisted living apartment attached to a LTC.


My mom and MIL live in 2 separate RTG senior apartments in Halton... No one still got even 1 shot...


----------



## andrewf

Money172375 said:


> Yes, but almost everyone in Israel is 2 hours from Jerusalem. Big difference moving supplies and vaccines within Ontario where it could be almost a full day by car from Windsor to Thunder Bay.


This is weak reason. Distributing the vaccine is not the bottleneck. We aren't receiving supply.


----------



## MrBlackhill

andrewf said:


> I think the curfew was a bit absurd and unnecessary.


Worked out better than closing the stores and with less impact on the economy.


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> 1981 Canada Cup - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8 : 1 to Soviets in final





andrewf said:


> This is weak reason. Distributing the vaccine is not the bottleneck. We aren't receiving supply.


I think It’s a component but not the main reason. Fact is, our geography will hurt us in this effort, not help. It seems we’re getting a lot of supply over the next few weeks. As I’ve said, I’ll reserve judgement until end of March. We should see a pretty good spike in needles in 2 weeks.


----------



## andrewf

I'm not really that fussed that we are a bit slow out of the gate, so long as we don't lag the whole peloton.


----------



## Eder

MrBlackhill said:


> Worked out better than closing the stores and with less impact on the economy.


I think more important is what the impact is on people.


----------



## Eder

andrewf said:


> I'm not really that fussed that we are a bit slow out of the gate, so long as we don't lag the whole peloton.



My 89 year old mother in law would disagree.


----------



## MrBlackhill

Eder said:


> I think more important is what the impact is on people.


People are really happy that stores are now open.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> This is weak reason. Distributing the vaccine is not the bottleneck. We aren't receiving supply.


We're receiving supply for last 2 weeks, we just don't know what to do with it


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> I'm not really that fussed that we are a bit slow out of the gate, so long as we don't lag the whole peloton.


Actually we do! To be 58-60th place in the World is a big lag!


----------



## gibor365

MrBlackhill said:


> People are really happy that stores are now open.


In Oakville even restaurants are open now! Today we went with friends there.... Very nice!
btw, our friends told us about loophole in order not stay in Trudeau's "Covid refugee camp" and not to pay Covid tax! You park in Niagara Falls close to the Bridge , walking through the Bridge and take Uber to Buffalo Airport.... Travelling whenever you want and same way walking through the bridge back to Canada.... no 3 days in Trudeau's "Covid refugee camp" and no 2K Covid tax per person! My wife liked the idea


----------



## gibor365

Like other poor countries and "banana republics" _Canada will receive 1.9 million doses of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine — pending regulatory approval — from the program by the end of June, according to an update released by COVAX on Wednesday on the first phase of its vaccine delivery. Federal opposition leaders decried it as an embarrassment and "the wrong decision" by the government. _
But Theresa Tam is pretending that her team is working hard and is not approving this vaccine yet


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> In Oakville even restaurants are open now! Today we went with friends there.... Very nice!
> btw, our friends told us about loophole in order not stay in Trudeau's "Covid refugee camp" and not to pay Covid tax! You park in Niagara Falls close to the Bridge , walking through the Bridge and take Uber to Buffalo Airport.... Travelling whenever you want and same way walking through the bridge back to Canada.... no 3 days in Trudeau's "Covid refugee camp" and no 2K Covid tax per person! My wife liked the idea



The better way is to just keep on walking, apparently police won't stop you.









Some travellers walking out of Pearson airport instead of paying for quarantine hotel


Peel Regional Police are not arresting people who refuse to follow the measures at Toronto Pearson Airport, a spokesperson confirmed




nationalpost.com




Akhil Mooken, a spokesperson for Peel Regional Police, confirmed that officers are not stopping people who refuse to follow the measures that came into effect Monday.


----------



## sags

The US border is closed to non-essential traffic.

If you walk across the bridge to the US........you still have to go through US customs.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> The US border is closed to non-essential traffic.
> 
> If you walk across the bridge to the US........you still have to go through US customs.


Maybe in when you are trying to walk from Canada to US...Canadian snowbirds are flying from Florida to Buffalo , take Uber to bridge and walk to Canada over the bridge with no problem.


----------



## Plugging Along

It's the next little positive step. My mom had her last shot in beginning of Feb in their care facility with over 95% of staff and residents vaccinated. Yesterday, they opened up bookings for 75 and over. That was a gong show, but we expected it. It took us hours to book on line as the system crashed, and started to stabilize late evening. At one point were 11000 in line to book, at least it kept us in queue. Calling was awful, as it rang busy, and then when you got through, it disconnected, I gave up calling the 10/11 disconnect. We got through to a pharmacy who was on the pilot, and booked us, for March 5, but then we read that pharmacies aren't scheduled until march 8 here, but they haven't called us back. My in laws got on last night. Their only complaint was they had to wait on line, and almost fell asleep. 

It was a little frustrating, but we knew the first days would be chaos, we could have waited until late night, but felt we needed to something for my dad. As of this morning, I read 84K seniors have appt in my province. Let's hope the vaccines keep coming in.


----------



## gibor365

@*Plugging Along, in which province do you live?*


----------



## Money172375

My neighbour who is 80 got a tip to show up at a Newmarket vaccine centre. He went and got his first shot. No appointment, no website, no call centre. Ontario has made shots available for people 80 and over, but they never really said how they were gonna do it.....other than the website enrolment that’s going live in 3 weeks. 

I think my neighbour lucked out.


----------



## Money172375

Just found our local regions vaccine plan. Shows you how complex this process is. It’s 103 pages long.



https://www.simcoemuskokahealth.org/docs/default-source/COVID-/vaccine/covid-19-simcoe-muskoka-vaccination-plan.pdf?sfvrsn=8


----------



## Money172375

Ontario’s vaccine lead said the provincial website would be up and running in 3 weeks.

our local health unit just launched their website today. Of course, it’s crashed already. By 85 year olds.


----------



## Plugging Along

@gibor365 In AB



Money172375 said:


> Ontario’s vaccine lead said the provincial website would be up and running in 3 weeks.
> 
> our local health unit just launched their website today. Of course, it’s crashed already. By 85 year olds.


I am actually very surprised that it was less than a day chaos on our site. I was checking the morning, and got right in. I was expecting days of chaos and crashes. 

Keep in mind, many of the people making the appointments are doing it on behalf of their parents. Both my siblings, spouse and I were all trying to get in on different devices.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> My 89 year old mother in law would disagree.


A matter of weeks one way or the other isn't going to be a big deal for her. If she is being careful, the risk to her is low and she should be very near the front of the line to get vaccinated. We've been living with this for a year now, and it was entirely possible that we might have had to wait longer for vaccines to be developed. We're fortunate it was possible to develop them as quickly as we have. If it takes a few weeks longer to get your shot it is not the end of the world, unless you have a high risk of infection and that is more in your control than the government's.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Maybe in when you are trying to walk from Canada to US...Canadian snowbirds are flying from Florida to Buffalo , take Uber to bridge and walk to Canada over the bridge with no problem.


You can return if you are Canadian, but you can't cross to the US on foot. You can also just fly from Florida directly to Toronto.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> You can return if you are Canadian, but you can't cross to the US on foot. You can also just fly from Florida directly to Toronto.


If you fly , you have to stay 3 days in special hotel for 2K (maybe you can escape , but later you can get heavy fine)... if you walk over the bridge - you don't have to, as AFAIK this rule applies only for air travelers


----------



## gibor365

Ontario COVID-19 quarantine screening officer charged with extortion, sexual assault


A quarantine screening officer who allegedly demanded cash from a woman before sexually assaulting her at her home faces related charges, police said on Wednesday.



toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Ontario’s vaccine lead said the provincial website would be up and running in 3 weeks.
> 
> our local health unit just launched their website today. Of course, it’s crashed already. By 85 year olds.


I'm confused now ... it suppose to be provincial website or local health unit .... ?


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> I'm confused now ... it suppose to be provincial website or local health unit .... ?


I’m confused too. But my local health unit has a website up and running. I’ve logged in and gone through it.


----------



## Money172375

Elliot said on Global news that some health units can proceed with shots for those 80+ using their own websites but when the provincial site is ready, they will need to transition to the provincial site.


----------



## Money172375

Astrazeneca approved for Canada 


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/astrazeneca-approved-1.5929050


----------



## andrewf

Apparently only 60% effective?


----------



## Money172375

Research is underway to see if taking one shot from one manufacturer and a second dose from a second manufacturer will work. Early Lab tests are showing this offers even greater protection. Specifically using mRNa once and then the older-traditional technology shot, and vice versa


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Apparently only 60% effective?


Yeah, but early data showed 94% reduction in hospitalizations.

Assuming a whole bunch and not to be callous.
I don't care if people get the sniffles, if the vaccine dramatically reduces the lethality and serious side effects, that's good enough.

Rough calculation, a 94% reduction in hospitalization, assuming that carries to death rate and serious side effects, would make COVID19 much less lethal than the seasonal flu.
That's a pretty big win.

The article is unclear, but it sounds like it is written that the laymans effectivity rate (ie death reduction) will be more comparable to the other vacccines (quote "they're all good")


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Yeah, but early data showed 94% reduction in hospitalizations.
> Assuming a whole bunch and not to be callous.
> 
> I don't care if people get the sniffles, if the vaccine dramatically reduces the lethality and serious side effects, that's good enough.


Similar to the J&J. That one is very interesting ... yes people still "got sick", but who cares. It had *100%* reduction in hospitalization and deaths.

Nobody on the J&J died. And they had a huge clinical trial, including elderly people.

Lots of great vaccines on the market.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Nobody on the J&J died. And they had a huge clinical trial, including elderly people.


That's a big win I think. Any data on vaccine allergic effects or reduction of lingering covid effects?


----------



## OptsyEagle

andrewf said:


> Apparently only 60% effective?


Probably closer 100% effective in saving lives.

I really wish the press would take a little more time and explain this to people a little better. In a world where our citizen's seem to be able to only understand the most basic simplified explanation of anything, this kind of info can be very misleading.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> That's a big win I think. Any data on vaccine allergic effects or reduction of lingering covid effects?


Haven't seen anything about lingering effects


----------



## OptsyEagle

Again. Points being missed in vaccine efficacy. Not only do they *all save lives* at a rate of about 100%, but just as important is* the short time they will take to kick the living daylights out of any illness that a vaccinated person might obtain.*

If a vaccinated person and a non-vaccinated person both get exposed to the same dose of infection, the vaccinated person will neutralize their infection days quicker then the non-vaccinated. That gets them feeling better quicker, but more importantly to the pandemic, it stops them infecting others so much quicker as well. The re-infection rates between vaccinated and non-vaccinated will be magnitudes different.

This study from Israel is showing initial signs of this to be in the order of 89% reduction in infections.









Pfizer-BioNTech Shot Stops Covid Spread, Israeli Study Shows







www.bloomberg.com


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Elliot said on Global news that some health units can proceed with shots for those 80+ using their own websites but when the provincial site is ready, they will need to transition to the provincial site.


Look like It's gonna be a mess again... like with 1 month migration Toronto test data to Ontario Health. 
I just don't understand why Ontario is always not ready! They had more than 1 year to setup vaccination province wide website.


----------



## gibor365

I want to understand how Ontario prioritizes who and when gonna get vaccine.
So, they are starting with 80+ seniors with 1st shot.... they should wait about 1 month for 2nd shot... Will 75+ seniors start getting 1st shot while 80+ are waiting for 2nd?
Is it based only on age? No one cares about underlying conditions?


----------



## gibor365

So, in Ontario, total number of people above 80 y.o. is about 600K, about 100K in LTC and already got at least one vaccine... about 20% don't want vaccine... Thus , we are talking about 400K who gonna be vaccinated... With very modest by world practices 100K per day, it can be done in just 4 days!


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> I want to understand how Ontario prioritizes who and when gonna get vaccine.
> So, they are starting with 80+ seniors with 1st shot.... they should wait about 1 month for 2nd shot... Will 75+ seniors start getting 1st shot while 80+ are waiting for 2nd?
> Is it based only on age? No one cares about underlying conditions?


Almost everyone has an underlying condition.
2/3rds of the over 40 population is overweight.




__





Overweight and obese adults, 2018


This is a Health fact sheet about Canadians aged 18 and older who are overweight or obese, based on self-reported height and weight that has been adjusted with correction factors. The results shown are based on data from the Canadian Community Health Survey.




www150.statcan.gc.ca





Elderly have even more conditions. Trying to sort through and rank them would just be a mess.
Start with age, work your way down.

KISS.


----------



## Money172375

The vaccines (at least some of them) and maybe all of them, have not been tested on people with underlying conditions. there are no specific timing guidelines for people with underlying conditions, just age. Unless you require daily care, you are eligible. Our health unit wants you to verbally attest that you have spoken to your primary care physician if you have underlying conditions or are immuno-comprised.

as far as I know, there are no specific timing guidelines for these individuals....it’s all age based.

edit: correction, there is a provision for high-risk chronic conditions and their caregivers. This is in phase 2


----------



## Money172375




----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> I want to understand how Ontario prioritizes who and when gonna get vaccine.
> So, they are starting with 80+ seniors with 1st shot.... they should wait about 1 month for 2nd shot... Will 75+ seniors start getting 1st shot while 80+ are waiting for 2nd?
> Is it based only on age? No one cares about underlying conditions?




*Phase 1: high-risk population vaccination*
*Timing*
December 2020 to March 2021
*Who will be vaccinated*
Early doses will be available for residents of:

long-term care homes
high-risk retirement homes
First Nations elder care homes
*Priorities for administering first doses of vaccines
Immediate priority*
Immediate priorities for first doses include:

staff, essential caregivers and any residents that have not yet received a first dose in:
long-term care homes
high-risk retirement homes
First Nations elder care homes

alternative level of care patients in hospitals who have a confirmed admission to a long-term care home, retirement home or other congregate care home for seniors
health care workers identified as highest priority, followed by very high priority, in the Ministry of Health’s guidance on Health Care Worker Prioritization (PDF)
Indigenous adults in northern remote and higher risk communities (on-reserve and urban)
*Next priority*
When all reasonable steps have been taken to complete first doses of the vaccine for all interested individuals in the immediate category, first doses will be available to the remainder of the Phase 1 populations.
This includes:

adults 80 years of age and older
staff, residents and caregivers in retirement homes and other congregate care settings for seniors (for example, assisted living)
health care workers identified as the high priority level in the Ministry of Health’s guidance on Health Care Worker Prioritization (PDF)
all Indigenous adults
adult recipients of chronic home care


----------



## Money172375

*Phase 2: mass deliveries of vaccines*
*Timing*
April to July 2021, depending on availability of vaccines
*Who will be vaccinated*
Approximately 8.7 million people from the following groups will receive vaccines:

older adults, beginning with those 79 years of age and decreasing in five-year increments over the course of the vaccine rollout
people who live and work in high-risk congregate settings (for example, shelters, community living)
frontline essential workers, including first responders, education workers and the food processing industry
individuals with high-risk chronic conditions and their caregivers
other populations and communities facing barriers related to the determinants of health across Ontario who are at greater COVID-19covid 19 risk
The task force will use the ethical framework and the best available data to identify other priority populations within this phase, based on available vaccine supply.


----------



## Money172375

*Phase 3: steady state *
*Timing*
August 2021 and beyond, depending on availability of vaccines
*Who will be vaccinated*
Remaining Ontarians in the general population who wish to be vaccinated will receive the vaccine. 
The ethical framework, data and available vaccine supply will help to prioritize groups in this phase.
Vaccines will not be mandatory, but you are strongly encouraged to get vaccinated.
The federal government has advance agreements with several manufacturers to purchase COVID-19covid 19 vaccines once the scientific studies are completed and the vaccines are approved for use in Canada.
Ontario is ready to receive and distribute more COVID-19covid 19 vaccines as soon as they


----------



## Money172375

500,000 AZ doses arriving Wednesday per CBC news


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Yeah, but early data showed 94% reduction in hospitalizations.
> 
> Assuming a whole bunch and not to be callous.
> I don't care if people get the sniffles, if the vaccine dramatically reduces the lethality and serious side effects, that's good enough.
> 
> Rough calculation, a 94% reduction in hospitalization, assuming that carries to death rate and serious side effects, would make COVID19 much less lethal than the seasonal flu.
> That's a pretty big win.
> 
> The article is unclear, but it sounds like it is written that the laymans effectivity rate (ie death reduction) will be more comparable to the other vacccines (quote "they're all good")


I think COVID, and particularly the variants, are much more contagious than seasonal flu. We can see that in the data this year. Social distancing almost eliminated the flu, but we still see lots of COVID cases. So even if the IFR is lower, COVID can kill more people by being more infectious.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> 500,000 AZ doses arriving Wednesday per CBC news


I'm curious who gonna get those vaccines?! Would 80+ Phase 1 have a choice?! I personally don't care what vaccine I gonna get.. but for my 75 y.o. mom and MIL, I'd suggest to get a better one.


----------



## gibor365

_older adults, beginning with those 79 years of age and decreasing in five-year increments over the course of the vaccine rollout -_ I've read it, but not sure that Ontario Provincial website will be so "sophisticated" to implement such algorithm


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> _older adults, beginning with those 79 years of age and decreasing in five-year increments over the course of the vaccine rollout -_ I've read it, but not sure that Ontario Provincial website will be so "sophisticated" to implement such algorithm


In my health unit, you need to select which group you’re in. Ie. 80+, health care worker etc.
not sure the algorithm is built in, cause they’re warning people that they will be turned away if they don’t meet the criteria.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> In my health unit, you need to select which group you’re in. Ie. 80+, health care worker etc.
> not sure the algorithm is built in, cause they’re warning people that they will be turned away if they don’t meet the criteria.


I expect a lot of fraud


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> I think COVID, and particularly the variants, are much more contagious than seasonal flu. We can see that in the data this year. Social distancing almost eliminated the flu, but we still see lots of COVID cases. So even if the IFR is lower, COVID can kill more people by being more infectious.


My thinking is that if they can reduce the death rate by 90+%, even if everyone gets COVID, it might end up causing less deaths than the typical flu season.

The problem is that COVID has a higher fatality rate, combined with a higher infection rate that's disasterous..
Lockdowns and herd immunity can address infection rate.
A vaccine, or treatment that drops the fatality rate would also help avert disaster.

What I'm suggesting is that if the severity of COVID19 is reduced to that of a common cold (like most Coronaviruses) the whole pandemic becomes a non-issue. Not that I'm predicting that, but that would be a great outcome.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> My thinking is that if they can reduce the death rate by 90+%, even if everyone gets COVID, it might end up causing less deaths than the typical flu season.
> 
> The problem is that COVID has a higher fatality rate, combined with a higher infection rate that's disasterous..
> Lockdowns and herd immunity can address infection rate.
> A vaccine, or treatment that drops the fatality rate would also help avert disaster.
> 
> What I'm suggesting is that if the severity of COVID19 is reduced to that of a common cold (like most Coronaviruses) the whole pandemic becomes a non-issue. Not that I'm predicting that, but that would be a great outcome.


That would be great. Unfortunately, it seems like a likely outcome is that we no longer have to social distance, but with high vaccine penetration we have a second respiratory illness with a similar burden as seasonal flu in terms of hospitalizations and deaths. Almost everyone will have a chance of getting reinfected with COVID-19 or a variant thereof, every year. May need different vaccinations every year to supplement immunity. So we may have permanently higher health care costs and public health costs (offering free COVID vaccinations every year).

Maybe a side benefit is that this will spur additional research that will help other diseases in addition to COVID. mRNA vaccines were a huge success story.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I see no reason that Covid will not get reduced to something closer to the flu in the future, maybe even more benign. Covid is not a very aggressive virus. It seems to me that the entire problem with Covid was that it was new to us. I suspect that once we all get exposed to the virus, at least once, either through vaccination (safest method) or infection (other method) it's teeth will be ground down to much more manageable level.

The problem I am seeing with vaccination to Covid is that people are kind of associating it to the flu vaccines. *Their idea of a good vaccine is that they will be immune to the virus. That never happens. * It is something Hollywood makes movies with but in real life vaccines simply speed up your bodies response to the virus. Depending on the dose of infection (which Hollywood never uses either - In movies the only difference is that you are either infected or not) most vaccinated people will never get sick but if the dose of infection is high enough you can still get sick, even if vaccinated. That is the way vaccines work in the real world.

All that said, we need to keep in mind, that most people who contracted covid were able to recover on their own. For those people, any vaccine of any efficacy above 50% will probably keep the majority of people from ever getting sick. For the ones that will die today from Covid, any vaccine will probably NOT keep them from getting sick because their dose of infection was too high, but will save their lives. Even for those people, with a new strain of covid in the future, without a new vaccination and the same dose of infection as before, it is likely that they will not die either. Their bodies have seen the enemy and will respond a little quicker now. That cannot be said for any mutation but will be the case for the vast majority of them.

Remember that the very few that died in this pandemic, most likely did not need a huge increase in immune response speed to have survived, but they did need something to boost what they had. Any vaccine of reasonable effectiveness or any past exposure to almost any mutation would have been enough. *Nobody actually NEEDS 95% efficacy to beat this thing. They just need something.*


----------



## Eder

A Canadian plan based on the science:
You can fly out but not drive out.
You can drive in but not fly in.
Guaranteed a plan by Trudeau and the incompetents.


----------



## Spudd

Eder said:


> A Canadian plan based on the science:
> You can fly out but not drive out.
> You can drive in but not fly in.
> Guaranteed a plan by Trudeau and the incompetents.


You can fly out because other countries allow you to fly to them. You cannot drive out because the US is the only country you can possibly drive to, and they have their land border closed to non-essential travel. Under the charter of rights, Canada cannot prevent you from leaving the country if you want to.

You can drive in because you are a Canadian citizen. However, you do have to take a Covid test and quarantine at home or in a hotel for 14 days. 

You can fly in because you are a Canadian citizen. However, you do have to take a Covid test and quarantine in a hotel for 3 days before taking another test, because flying is a riskier way to travel than driving. Then you have to complete the rest of your 14 day quarantine at home.


----------



## cainvest

Eder said:


> You can fly out but not drive out.
> You can drive in but not fly in.


Ya, sounds weird but it does stop the "tiny number" of people that cross border shop each day.


----------



## james4beach

J&J vaccine coming imminently ... FDA just approved it, Health Canada any day now

Canada can get tens of millions of doses of this. We've already locked in the purchase rights. This is a great vaccine and will be easier, logistically. Well used technology, single shot, normal storage, eliminated ALL hospitalizations and deaths after 28 days.

In other words this is roughly 100% effective against the serious problems, the only stuff we really care about. It will keep you out of hospital, that's what we care about.

This is great news everyone ... must remain a bit patient ... I'm feeling very optimistic and pretty excited about the rest of this year. Once the vaccines start flowing and the logistical challenges are wrinkled out, we're going to be flooded with vaccines.

The insanely excess amount of doses is a reason Canada ranks highly on the Bloomberg survey. Slow to deliver, yes, but we've got enough to protect the whole country. Not every country does.


----------



## Eder

It would be the best of news if we can get a lot of the J&J vaccine...this is the chicken dinner that will end our pandemic...may not end the machinations of the masks and lock down forever club though.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> A Canadian plan based on the science:
> You can fly out but not drive out.
> You can drive in but not fly in.
> Guaranteed a plan by Trudeau and the incompetents.


and you can walk in , but not walk out ...  Freaking "Hotel California"


----------



## gibor365

_Canada can get tens of millions of doses of this -_ Canada could've if JT wouldn't around



> Shipments of a few million doses to be divided among states could begin as early as Monday. By the end of March, J&J has said it expects to deliver 20 million doses to the U.S., and 100 million by summer. .....Health Canada is still reviewing the vaccine. Canada has ordered 10 million doses from Johnson & Johnson with options for up to 28 million more, if necessary. Most of those shots are expected to arrive by the end of September.


Sure, Health Canada should show that they are doing something LOL
In any case, Canada in the best case gonna get vaccine
"by the end of September. " after US finishes vaccination. 

Looks like everything on "paper" again


> Anand said it's "too early" to say how many doses,* if any*, Canada will receive in the April through June period.


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Looks like everything on "paper" again


Face it, Trudeau totally mismanaged COVID19, the borders still aren't closed, and he has no idea how to get vaccine.
That doesn't stop him from making promises and claims that are impossible.

We still haven't closed the borders, and we can't seem to figure out how to get someone from a plane into quarantine, it's been a year, thousands have died, and Trudeau can't get his #[email protected][email protected]#$ together.

Canada won't be vaccinated by the fall, there is no plan to achieve this.

But Trudeau is planning for his next election, who cares that we're in massive debt, he's going to promise more free money for everyone to try and win again.


----------



## milhouse

andrewf said:


> May need different vaccinations every year to supplement immunity.


There's already talk about a booster shot to address the variants.


----------



## Beaver101

Regurgitating front page news since this is a business forum:

Vaccine tourism is both unethical and bad for business, experts say


----------



## gibor365

Ontario today reported administrating below 20K vaccines...
And Canada "proudly" on 54th place by daily vaccination rate LOL


----------



## gibor365

Just watched on Twitter Sheraton Toronto quarantine videos ... this is disaster...no food , no water...people gathering in lobbies and yelling .. "Amazing" Covid spread prevention LOL


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> Just watched on Twitter Sheraton Toronto quarantine videos ... this is disaster...no food , no water...people gathering in lobbies and yelling .. "Amazing" Covid spread prevention LOL


Too bad they were told to come home (or don’t leave) back in March 2020. No sympathy from me. There’s water in the taps. I love how they are all crowding together. Wonder what they would be doing if nobody was watching or quarantining them. I appreciate there is some required travel but the vast majority of people should have come home a long time ago and/or never left.


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> Ontario today reported administrating below 20K vaccines...
> And Canada "proudly" on 54th place by daily vaccination rate LOL


So is it Ford or Trudeau today?

last I saw, Ontario has only distributed 75% of their shipments. Should be closer to 90%.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Too bad they were told to come home (or don’t leave) back in March 2020. No sympathy from me. There’s water in the taps. I love how they are all crowding together.


The point is.... do you want to punish them or stop spreading COVID? With such crowding, you just spread the virus.
Maybe it's better (and much safer for everyone) to make them quarantined in their homes...and to make sure they are following , to do spot checks or make them rent "leg bracelets" that beep and notify authorities when they move more than 20-30 meters from the house?


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> So is it Ford or Trudeau today?
> 
> last I saw, Ontario has only distributed 75% of their shipments. Should be closer to 90%.


Both! Whole system is not functioning



> Asked why Ontario's platform wasn't launched sooner considering Alberta and Quebec residents will be booking vaccines imminently, Ford said at a news conference Wednesday that he respectfully disagrees the province is lagging behind.
> 
> Ford pointed to Alberta's system crashing Wednesday on its first day of operations


I bet that despite of launching Ontario website 2.5 weeks late, it will crash on the first day lol.

Also curious, shouldn't each public health unit get number of vaccines depending on Ford's colored code system? So, lockdown zones should get more vaccines per capita, than green or yellow ones


----------



## OptsyEagle

Anyone heard from any of the provincial health authorities what their plan is for the AstraZeneca vaccine that is due to arrive this week. Are they planning on giving it to the most vulnerable (older ages) first, or bypass them with this stuff and direct it towards younger age groups.

I know other countries seem to be leaning towards younger age groups but many of them are more awash in vaccines, of all brands, then Canada is. I will be curious to see what they decide to do.


----------



## Beaver101

Experts caution against the temptation to comparison shop COVID-19 vaccines

_



.. Several medical experts including Dr. Stephen Hwang say Canadians do not have the luxury to pick-and-choose as long as COVID-19 cases continue to rage in several hot spots and strain health-care systems.

*With multiple COVID-19 projections warning of a variant-fuelled third wave without tighter suppression measures, any tool that can slow the pandemic should be embraced, he argued.

“It would be important for people to be vaccinated with whichever vaccine is first available in their community to them, rather than trying to hold out for a specific vaccine,”* advised Hwang, who treats COVID-19 patients at St. Michael's Hospital in Toronto. ...

Click to expand...

_Further details on AstraZeneca vaccine distribution plan:

Ontario hopeful AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine will speed up vaccination timeline (Friday Feb.26,2021):



> ._.. Data on the vaccine’s efficacy in people over 65 years old is currently limited, but Health Canada officials said Friday that there’s no evidence to suggest it is less effective for that population. *Still, the National Advisory Committee on Immunization is expected to deliver a recommendation next week on who should receive the vaccine. It will be up to the provinces to make a final determination.*
> 
> Some European countries have approved the Astrazeneca vaccine, but recommended it only for people under 65.
> 
> However Bogoch cautioned that people should not hold off getting an AstraZeneca shot because they perceive it to be less effective.
> 
> “We're all going to need an updated vaccine at some point,” he said. “I don't know when that's going to be, but we'll all very likely need either a booster vaccine, or an updated vaccine to accommodate for the variants of concern.”
> 
> He added that there is “an urgent need to protect Canadians from COVID-19.”
> 
> “We know that this vaccine will have very strong efficacy against the vast majority of COVID-19 here in Ontario and of course everywhere in Canada. So, there's an urgent need to vaccinate Canadians with quite frankly, any one of the vaccines that Health Canada is currently looking at.”
> 
> At a federal technical briefing on vaccines Friday morning, Dr. Supriya Sharma said that while the approved vaccines have different efficacy rates when it comes to preventing all symptoms of COVID-19, all of them are highly effective at preventing hospitalization and death from the disease. ..._


 .. knowing Ford will follow Public Health guidelines and PH follows Health Canada's ... those vaccines are going *to be put to work asap* based on Phase 1, 2 & 3 priority-groups (The Plan). 

For one, TO is planning to vaccinate the homeless next week ... no mention of "age-bands priority" for that group.

City to begin administering COVID-19 vaccines to those in Toronto's shelter system


----------



## Eder

OptsyEagle said:


> Are they planning


Boink...here's the problem....anything else is just surplus verbiage.


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> Boink...here's the problem....anything else is just surplus verbiage.


 .. is this applicable to B.C. (where you're supposedly located?) I just read AB had its vaccination booking systems crashed last week despite its public announcements.


----------



## gibor365

Beaver101 said:


> .. is this applicable to B.C. (where you're supposedly located?) I just read AB had its vaccination booking systems crashed last week despite its public announcements.


Not sure... just read on twitter that guy registered and vaccinated his senior dad


----------



## andrewf

Money172375 said:


> Too bad they were told to come home (or don’t leave) back in March 2020. No sympathy from me. There’s water in the taps. I love how they are all crowding together. Wonder what they would be doing if nobody was watching or quarantining them. I appreciate there is some required travel but the vast majority of people should have come home a long time ago and/or never left.


Umm, I'm all for this supervised quarantine, but if it can't be run competently (like feeding people at normal times), then they should let them go home. This isn't impossible--Australia has been doing this for months. This not meant to be punitive.


----------



## Money172375

Here’s a link to each ontario public health units’s vaccine plans.





__





Ontario Health Unit Vaccination Plan - Google Drive







docs.google.com


----------



## OptsyEagle

I guess my next question would be more like a poll. 

Do you think Canadians would prefer it if they give the AZ vaccine to people under 65, due to its lower efficacy, even though people older then 65 will not have been vaccinated yet, due to insufficient current supplies of the Pfizer/Moderna, at this time...or...should they direct it to the most vulnerable first.

My opinion is that, of course I would like to see older people vaccinated before younger people but when this vaccination program is all over I would prefer it if the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines were pulsing through the veins of older people and I would be less concerned with the AZ vaccine being used for younger people who really do not need the higher efficacy. Under age 65, for example.

What do you guys think? There is probably not a wrong answer but I do think one answer is more right then the other.


----------



## gibor365

@*OptsyEagle, I agree with you .... Me and my wife don't care too much which vaccine we get , we just want to travel abroad ... but I'd prefer JNJ vaccine as it's only 1 shot and it's more traditional ...
but for my 75 yo mom and MIL, I'd prefer PFE/Moderma one.*


----------



## gibor365

I'm curious how Ontario website is going to be setup.... Assume 80 yo person logged in and he gets appointment as per his postal code.... Will vaccine name appear also? What if he/she doesn't want vaccine that was offered?
Interesting to know what AB website( that already running) is offering


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> I'm curious how Ontario website is going to be setup.... Assume 80 yo person logged in and he gets appointment as per his postal code.... Will vaccine name appear also? What if he/she doesn't want vaccine that was offered?
> Interesting to know what AB website( that already running) is offering


I highly doubt it. I’m Not even sure the web software is going to match any info in the background (Ie. name, address, age etc). It may just be an appointment portal, and all the verifying occurs in person. They’re a lot of warning on our website stating you will be turned away if not qualified.


----------



## OptsyEagle

gibor365 said:


> I'm curious how Ontario website is going to be setup.... Assume 80 yo person logged in and he gets appointment as per his postal code.... Will vaccine name appear also? What if he/she doesn't want vaccine that was offered?
> Interesting to know what AB website( that already running) is offering


Whatever the people in charge decide, I seriously doubt they will ever give anyone a "choice" of what vaccine they get. Whatever they decide with the Astrazeneca, it will end up being their choice, at least until we are awash in vaccine and perhaps not even then. I will just be curious to see what they decide. Right now it is just 500,000 doses, but it will probably be enough to see how they are thinking.

As I said, I don't think there is a wrong answer towards the pandemic fight but perhaps a wrong answer towards maximizing the take up of vaccination.


----------



## Money172375

You get what you get, and don’t get upset.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> So is it Ford or Trudeau today?
> 
> last I saw, Ontario has only distributed 75% of their shipments. Should be closer to 90%.


No, we're 2 months into vaccination, and you need 1 month between the two shots

We should reserve second shots to ensure that everyone gets the proper vaccination, in accordance with the schedule approved by the experts (manufacturer and health Canada)

Under that logic 75% is about the right amount of vaccine used (25% first shot in Jan, 25% second shot in Feb, 25% second shot in feb, 25% saved for second shot in march)

Now if you want to ignore the experts and just administer the vaccine however you want, then higher percentages make sense, but considering how poor our vaccine supply is that would be Trudeau levels of incompetence and irresponsibility to do so.


----------



## kcowan

If we end up with one type like Pfizer, will the inevitable booster shots need to be from the same source?


----------



## MrMatt

kcowan said:


> If we end up with one type like Pfizer, will the inevitable booster shots need to be from the same source?


Boosters, probably not.
Apparently it might even be okay to mix and match the initial dose, but this isn't approved yet.

That's my point, all these people wanting to mix and match and play around with vaccination scares me.
We do testing to ensure that the vaccines are safe and effective, then people want to ignore the the procedures.

It's important to note that these two dose vaccines are two dose vaccines because 1 dose wasn't good enough. Why anyone thinks it's a good idea to fool around with the schedule is beyond me.


----------



## Plugging Along

gibor365 said:


> I'm curious how Ontario website is going to be setup.... Assume 80 yo person logged in and he gets appointment as per his postal code.... Will vaccine name appear also? What if he/she doesn't want vaccine that was offered?
> Interesting to know what AB website( that already running) is offering


In AB, the site and phones were down for most of the morning. I as expecting total chaos the first few days to be honest, so set your expectations. There were more people logging in that people eligible because people had 4 or 5 devices and multiple helping them. I was expecting the chaos to last for days. By the evening, the site was really busy, but back up and least told you that you were 12090th in line. Fortunately, some of our pharmacies are getting a supply, and my dad's was one of them. They couldn't say the exact date, put his name on the wait list, and actually called us that night to set up the first and second date. They have all his info on file, so no problems with verifying age. There is no choice in the vaccine offered. 

I also booked online in the middle of night, and there is no choice offered. The booking in fact, has very limited times, and there were opening the times as they filled up (meaning you got the next available HOUR, not even a choice of date, day or time, unless you kept signing in).

My cousin who owes a pharmacy gave his opinion there were pretty close, but generally said since there is no choice is better for my dad to get vaccinated as quickly as possible. Even with my mom's home, they could not confirm the vaccine they were getting until a couple days before. There really wasn't a choice. It would be a nightmare to give people a choice.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> There really wasn't a choice. It was a be night mare to give people a choice.


Beggers can't be choosers.
Oh and if you don't want it, I'll be glad to take it for you.

It isn't like anyone actually has an informed reason to prefer one vaccine to another.


----------



## sags

My wife tells me I have to consult with my doctor on what vaccines I can take.

I haven't heard anything from the news, but apparently a questionaire must be filled out before vaccination and some medications and conditions will prohibit a vaccination.

Best check with your doctor first ? Anyone hear anything about that ?


----------



## Money172375

sags said:


> My wife tells me I have to consult with my doctor on what vaccines I can take.
> 
> I haven't heard anything from the news, but apparently a questionaire must be filled out before vaccination and some medications and conditions will prohibit a vaccination.
> 
> Best check with your doctor first ? Anyone hear anything about that ?


In our district health unit, you need to verbally confirm that you’ve consulted your primary care physician. My mom is battling concern, awaiting chemo. Her oncologist said to get the vaccine as soon as possible.


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> Beggers can't be choosers.
> Oh and if you don't want it, I'll be glad to take it for you.
> 
> It isn't like anyone actually has an informed reason to prefer one vaccine to another.


 I wasn't implying I wanted a choice. I was explaining the process in AB. I will assume you were not being snarky and implying that I am beggar or being choosy. I will take my vaccine when my time comes, there is no need for you to offer. I did correct my typos if that was the misunderstanding.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> My wife tells me I have to consult with my doctor on what vaccines I can take.
> 
> I haven't heard anything from the news, but apparently a questionaire must be filled out before vaccination and some medications and conditions will prohibit a vaccination.
> 
> Best check with your doctor first ? Anyone hear anything about that ?


They always have a questionnaire.
That's the case for every vaccine I've ever taken.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> I wasn't implying I wanted a choice. I was explaining the process in AB. I will assume you were not being snarky and implying that I am beggar or being choosy. I will take my vaccine when my time comes, there is no need for you to offer. I did correct my typos if that was the misunderstanding.


Not snarky to you, but to those who are pretending like a choice would matter.
Quite simply they don't know enough to determine if one is better or not.
The experts have said they're comparable, though these are the same experts that didn't recommend masks, and didn't recommend travel bans, but they're the ones we have.
But this time we should trust the experts.

See how it circles back to credibility? That's what Trudeau and Tam don't realize, when they keep lying to us, we stop trusting them.


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> My wife tells me I have to consult with my doctor on what vaccines I can take.
> 
> I haven't heard anything from the news, but apparently a questionaire must be filled out before vaccination and some medications and conditions will prohibit a vaccination.
> 
> Best check with your doctor first ? Anyone hear anything about that ?


I don't know about a questionnaire, maybe that's when you arrive. However, my dad's doctor and mom, said it's both their cases, its better to just get anyone of the vaccine, rather than none. They both have many conditions, but we told the vaccine is the least of their concerned compared to if they get COVID with out it. I wonder if there are any people other than under 18 that are recommended not to get the vaccine. I know they did delay some people at the home if they were showing any symptoms. They wanted everyone's immune system to be at their 100%.


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> Not snarky to you, but to those who are pretending like a choice would matter.
> Quite simply they don't know enough to determine if one is better or not.
> The experts have said they're comparable, though these are the same experts that didn't recommend masks, and didn't recommend travel bans, but they're the ones we have.
> But this time we should trust the experts.
> 
> See how it circles back to credibility? That's what Trudeau and Tam don't realize, when they keep lying to us, we stop trusting them.


Definitely agree that most people would even know which one is the best for them. We know a lot of people in medical field, and they don't even know. I think there is a very fine line in trying to figure out what was best. 

I already started looking into masks at the end January. I was wearing masks at the beginning March. Why because my mom's home, was starting to take precautions early. I do think they should have told people to wear masks early. There were people arguing all the time about them. I think the government was unclear and didn't know if masks were effective and they did need to save the supply for the front line and people that really needed it. I on the hand, could not see how they would make things worse, other than people's stupidity they would hoard or try to profit from it. Look at how expensive masks and lysol were in the early days. It wasn't until there were some studies that showed mask, that the recommendations changed. Do I think the government lied? No, I don't, they based it on the constantly changing information. I don't think they are lying, I just think they are not as competent as they could be. There is difference. I still check out the sources and do my own research, but I also don't claim to know more than them when it comes to the medical stuff.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> See how it circles back to credibility?


If you have issues with credibility then don't get the vaccine they are offering if you don't like it.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> I wonder if there are any people other than under 18 that are recommended not to get the vaccine.


There is no vaccine for kids, so only a few million.
I think there are some for maybe 16+ or 14+, but there is currently no approved vaccine for several million Canadians.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> If you have issues with credibility then don't get the vaccine they are offering if you don't like it.


I have HUGE concerns with their credibility, and I trust Trudeau less than a used car salesman.

My point is that Trudeau and Tam have actively undermined their own credibility, and it is a problem.

I'll take whatever vaccine I can get, because I still trust that Health Canada is mostly capable.


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> There is no vaccine for kids, so only a few million.
> I think there are some for maybe 16+ or 14+, but there is currently no approved vaccine for several million Canadians.


This will come shortly. They’re testing on children in the US now. Even newborns.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> This will come shortly. They’re testing on children in the US now. Even newborns.


Source?


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> Source?


It was on the news this morning. CP 24 or CBC. I’ll see if I can find an online source


----------



## Money172375

Lowest single day death toll in Ontario since October. Vaccines showing some effect?


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> Source?


This appears to be what they were mentioning on tv. Tests already occurring down to age 12. 









Johnson & Johnson has planned trials of its vaccine that will include infants. (Published 2021)


The company’s coming trials will also involve pregnant women and people whose immune systems are compromised.




www.nytimes.com


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Lowest single day death toll in Ontario since October. Vaccines showing some effect?


I'd say it's the low case numbers.
London for example has been mostly single and low double digits for a while.

Plus early in the pandemic we killed off a lot of our elderly.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Lowest single day death toll in Ontario since October. Vaccines showing some effect?


Nah, it's too early....don't look at single day.
btw, today again just 17K vaccines in Ontario and couple of weeks ago media was so optimistic that hundreds thousands vaccines coming


----------



## james4beach

There's no way the vaccines could be showing an effect yet.

I hope people don't start letting their guard down because of the good news on the vaccine front. Lately in stores around me, I've been seeing record sized crowds.

Makes me wonder if people are taking it easy and thinking "we're done". We are not close to done yet.

There are a few younger people having repeated gatherings with friends within my apartment floor. I really wish they wouldn't. I'm just generally seeing more social activity everywhere, lately.

My advice to anyone over 50 reading this is, as usual, stay the hell away from young people. Don't even get close to them in a grocery store etc.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> There's no way the vaccines could be showing an effect yet.


They should soon, but it'll only show up in the higher risk group death numbers at first.


----------



## gibor365

Majority of patients who are on ventilator are gonna die sooner or later


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> They should soon, but it'll only show up in the higher risk group death numbers at first.


Even in Israel, who fully vaccinated 40% and administered 93.5% per 100 ppl, week ago was spike in death...


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> Even in Israel, who fully vaccinated 40% and administered 93.5% per 100 ppl, week ago was spike in death...


Yes exactly. Israel has had huge numbers of vaccinations but still was showing high death rates, the last time I looked.

Someone who gets vaccinated today, only has protection kick in, about 2-3 weeks from now.

Deaths of today are from infections over the last 3 or 4 weeks, probably from human-to-human spreading as much as 6 weeks prior.


----------



## Eder

The Lowy Institute, in Australia, recently graded the effectiveness of pandemic responses in 98 countries. Canada ranked 61st, behind Belarus. (New Zealand was at the top of the chart, UAE was ranked 35th.)


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Someone who gets vaccinated today, only has protection kick in, about 2-3 weeks from now.


I did say "soon" but I guess that was to vague as some will take that as hours, others weeks or months.


----------



## Money172375

cainvest said:


> They should soon, but it'll only show up in the higher risk group death numbers at first.


Most of the high risk, if not all, LTC residents have been vaccinated in Ontario. I think we are seeing the early days of vaccine prevention.


----------



## Money172375

Will be interesting to see the deployment numbers this week and next with some provinces opening up vaccines to the general population. My neighbour got his and I know others are booked in this week too.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Most of the high risk, if not all, LTC residents have been vaccinated in Ontario. I think we are seeing the early days of vaccine prevention.


What what I read , All LTC residents got 1st vaccine, not fully vaccinated...
And even more high risk non-LTC seniors didn't start yet even with one shot, at least in the highest hit GTA


----------



## Eder

Gibor...looks like you should just send your parents out to live on the streets of Toronto for a week or so...that will be the new focus for vaccine in Ontario.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> Gibor...looks like you should just send your parents out to live on the streets of Toronto for a week or so...that will be the new focus for vaccine in Ontario.


It would be even better to send them to prison for a week or so .... as inmates vaccination is top priority in Ontario...also they have shelter and free food


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> It would be even better to send them to prison for a week or so .... as inmates vaccination is top priority in Ontario...also they have shelter and free food


That's right gibor, the homeless and prisoners have all the fun and best treatment! Also the disabled ... they're always having such an easy time in life.

When will us, the rich & healthy people, get a break? We are always suffering. Everyone is against us.

(This post is sarcastic. I added this note because some conservative people actually think like this and might not be able to tell I'm joking)


----------



## Beaver101

^^ gibor, you can do both of what you and Eder suggested but then don't complain about all the taxes you (and your working wife + your kids) have to pay supporting the inmates and the homeless into perpetuity. 

Add to J4B's post above: " ... some conservative people = dumbaxxes"


----------



## OptsyEagle

OK. So I am watching the news on CP24 a couple of minutes ago and while the announcer was updating some vaccination news they had a clip of someone being vaccinated. The needle went in, and as the person's squeezed the syringe a considerable amount of clear liquid went down the outside of the person shoulder. I rewound the clip and watched it again and again and I noticed that the syringe was leaking from above the tip. So my guess is that person probably lost over 3/4 of her vaccination down the outside of her shoulder. The technician quickly wiped it away and that was that.

They showed another person right after and that vaccination seem to go without a glitch. Anyway, keep an eye on it. Perhaps they were those syringes designed to get that 6th dose out of the Pfizer bottles. If it happens to me, I can't really say what I would do, except complain in case they are not noticing the problem. The person probably did get some of it so giving her another shot immediately might not be the best idea.

Anyway, can we not get some working syringes. I couldn't believe it. What a waste of vaccine.


----------



## Money172375

OptsyEagle said:


> OK. So I am watching the news on CP24 a couple of minutes ago and while the announcer was updating some vaccination news they had a clip of someone being vaccinated. The needle went in, and as the person's squeezed the syringe a considerable amount of clear liquid went down the outside of the person shoulder. I rewound the clip and watched it again and again and I noticed that the syringe was leaking from above the tip. So my guess is that person probably lost over 3/4 of her vaccination down the outside of her shoulder. The technician quickly wiped it away and that was that.
> 
> They showed another person right after and that vaccination seem to go without a glitch. Anyway, keep an eye on it. Perhaps they were those syringes designed to get that 6th dose out of the Pfizer bottles. If it happens to me, I can't really say what I would do, except complain in case they are not noticing the problem. The person probably did get some of it so giving her another shot immediately might not be the best idea.
> 
> Anyway, can we not get some working syringes. I couldn't believe it. What a waste of vaccine.


I’m guessing it’s user error.


----------



## gibor365

OptsyEagle said:


> OK. So I am watching the news on CP24 a couple of minutes ago and while the announcer was updating some vaccination news they had a clip of someone being vaccinated. The needle went in, and as the person's squeezed the syringe a considerable amount of clear liquid went down the outside of the person shoulder. I rewound the clip and watched it again and again and I noticed that the syringe was leaking from above the tip. So my guess is that person probably lost over 3/4 of her vaccination down the outside of her shoulder. The technician quickly wiped it away and that was that.
> 
> They showed another person right after and that vaccination seem to go without a glitch. Anyway, keep an eye on it. Perhaps they were those syringes designed to get that 6th dose out of the Pfizer bottles. If it happens to me, I can't really say what I would do, except complain in case they are not noticing the problem. The person probably did get some of it so giving her another shot immediately might not be the best idea.
> 
> Anyway, can we not get some working syringes. I couldn't believe it. What a waste of vaccine.


I'm not surprised....we got OHIP


----------



## gibor365

> My advice to anyone over 50 reading this is, as usual, stay the hell away from young people. Don't even get close to them in a grocery store etc.


Thank you for advise  My advise to you - put on 2 masks , don't exit your apartment and lock all doors and windows LOL


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Will be interesting to see the deployment numbers this week and next with some provinces opening up vaccines to the general population. My neighbour got his and I know others are booked in this week too.


I read similar post(s) week ago and nothing was changed ! I don't believe in our "perfect" medical system ... 58th place in the World?! Liberals are telling that it's not too bad


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> I read similar post(s) week ago and nothing was changed ! I don't believe in our "perfect" medical system ... 58th place in the World?! Liberals are telling that it's not too bad


For you gibor....

*Update on who can get the vaccine and how to register in Peel*
Brampton, ON. (March 1, 2021) – With over 50,000 first doses of COVID-19 vaccine delivered in Peel, anticipated increases in supply now supports the addition of new groups eligible for COVID-19 vaccination. This expansion of Peel's Community Mass Vaccination Plan represents another step towards providing protection for our most vulnerable and increasing community vaccine coverage with the goal of interrupting disease transmission in our community. 
This update specifies which groups are now eligible for vaccination and how they can register through outreach or self-service appointment booking. Please note that vaccine supply continues to limit the number of appointments available. In the weeks to come, with more supply arriving in Peel, appointment availability will improve.
New: Seniors 80+ are now eligible to book appointments and receive vaccine in Peel
Vaccine supply is improving and Peel's hospital partners are able to open a limited number of spots in their clinics for vaccination of adults over the age of 80. Residents of Peel that meet this age criteria, based on year of birth (i.e. born 1941 or earlier), can visit the following websites to book in at their clinic of preference. These websites are being made available to speed up the vaccination of this important group in our community and will remain active until a centralized Provincial booking system launches.
Any resident of Peel (including Brampton, Mississauga, and Caledon) born in 1941 or earlier, can visit the following websites to book or pre-register at their clinic of preference. Please note that appointments may be limited due to supply.

Brampton - William Osler Health System vaccine clinic: Book appointments onlineusing the booking portal. Launching this evening March 1, 2021, for appointments starting tomorrow.
Mississauga - Trillium Health Partners vaccine clinic: pre-registration for appointments for adults 80+.
Supply at Region of Peel-run community clinics remains limited and currently being prioritized to high-priority workers. When supply improves, a program to support housebound seniors and online booking for 80+ will be launched at these community clinics, increasing choice and access for the Peel community.

High-priority population groups also continue to access vaccine:
Active, front-line, and patient-facing workers in the following areas, who live or work in Peel, are currently prioritized to receive their COVID-19 vaccines, and are being contacted directly with instructions on how to book an appointment at Region of Peel run clinics: 

Long-term care homes
Retirement homes
Acute care and other hospital settings
Team supporting outbreak response
COVID-19 assessment centres
COVID-19 vaccine clinics
Mobile testing teams
Paramedics
Firefighters and police providing medical first response
High-risk community-based providers serving specialized patient populations (e.g. Community Health Centres, Adult Day Programs, Home and Community Care)
Assisted living
Correctional facilities
Hospices and palliative care
Shelters
Supportive housing
Primary care and community-based physicians, including their office staff
Dentists, dental hygienists and their office staff.


----------



## gibor365

As per COVID-19 in Peel - Region of Peel in Mississauga with almost 1M people, in range 50-59 ONLY 10 deaths and 115 hospitalizations, in range 60-69 25 death and 146 hospitalizations. It's nothing comparing to other cases


----------



## like_to_retire

So I guess the Johnson & Johnson vaccine is out, and it makes me suspicious of ever getting enough Moderna or Pfzier after President Biden said it will only happen after every American is vaccinated.

I guess we'll be awash in Astrazeneca vaccine. I'm sure it will be just OK, although I find it interesting when they try and promote this vaccine, they don't talk about its efficacy, rather how many people didn't die. 


_"Biden spokesperson rules out helping Canada, Mexico with vaccine supply before all Americans are inoculated"_



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/biden-vaccine-help-canada-mexico-1.5932176



ltr


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> I'm not surprised....we got OHIP


 .. OHIP stands for Ontario Health Insurance Plan, not Ottawa Health Insurance Plan and who's in charge of OHIP?


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> For you gibor....
> 
> *Update on who can get the vaccine and how to register in Peel*


I'm just 50+ and my wife 40+, so for us it will take long months to get vaccine (in Canada).

I care now only about Halton region where our moms live


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> As per COVID-19 in Peel - Region of Peel in Mississauga with almost 1M people, in range 50-59 ONLY 10 deaths and 115 hospitalizations, in range 60-69 25 death and 146 hospitalizations. It's nothing comparing to other cases


 .. and now everyone from the other regions can visit Mississauga and help boost those numbers up. Is that your point?


----------



## gibor365

like_to_retire said:


> So I guess the Johnson & Johnson vaccine is out, and it makes me suspicious of ever getting enough Moderna or Pfzier after President Biden said it will only happen after every American is vaccinated.
> 
> I guess we'll be awash in Astrazeneca vaccine. I'm sure it will be just OK, although I find it interesting when they try and promote this vaccine, they don't talk about its efficacy, rather how many people didn't die.
> 
> 
> _"Biden spokesperson rules out helping Canada, Mexico with vaccine supply before all Americans are inoculated"_
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/biden-vaccine-help-canada-mexico-1.5932176
> 
> 
> 
> ltr


Sure! We have to wait until All Americans are vaccinated LOL


----------



## Eder

I guess its not equitable to vaccinate 65 & over homeless, prisoners & gibors parents and regular over 65 citizens before the younger prisoners & homeless & us? Seems better to me, but do make it personal if one has a different opinion right?


----------



## gibor365

Beaver101 said:


> .. and now everyone from the other regions can visit Mississauga and help boost those numbers up. Is that your point?


Everyone who wants can visit Mississauga ....but there is nothing to do here....we're in lockdown, all Mississauga people are going to Halton 
My point was that james4beach is strongly exaggerating... as well as media who spread hysteria


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> I guess its not equitable to vaccinate 65 & over homeless, prisoners & gibors parents and regular over 65 citizens before the younger prisoners & homeless & us? Seems better to me, but do make it personal if one has a different opinion right?


 ... age-discrimination always existed so nothing new. 

And here we go again .. nothing personal when post #630's me, myself and I opinion indicates otherwise:



> *I'm just 50+ and my wife 40+, so for us it will take long months to get vaccine (in Canada).*
> 
> _*I care now only about Halton region where our moms live *_
> *goes me, my wife, my mother, my MIL*


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> Everyone who wants can visit Mississauga ....but there is nothing to do here....we're in lockdown, all Mississauga people are going to Halton


 ...aha, why are Mississauga folks going to Halton when they're supposedly be in lock-down meaning "stay at home"? 



> My point was that james4beach is strongly exaggerating... as well as media who spread hysteria


 ... J4B wasn't exaggerating .. he was being sarcastic. Nor was he spreading hysteria but merely pointing out the facts. The media may appear (to you) to be "spreading hysteria" .. that's sensationalism and sells. But then I wouldn't dismiss it ... you haven't read the new variant brewing in California which I'll leave you to find on your own otherwise I'll be accused of spreading hysteria too.


----------



## gibor365

_he was being sarcastic - _he was sarcastic in different post , not in one that I replied in post #624



> ...aha, why are Mississauga folks going to Halton when they're supposedly be in lock-down meaning "stay at home"?


 LOL ... sure, we are  ..
btw, a lot of Toronto folks are also going to Oakville ... just were partying with them last week


----------



## Money172375

Looks like they’re considering delaying the second dose in Ontario...









Ontario may speed up COVID-19 vaccinations by postponing booster shots for even longer


Less than a week after saying people under age 60 wouldn’t be vaccinated until sometime this summer, the province said Monday it may delay second doses of Pfizer and Moderna vaccines for as long as four months to speed up a plan that has been criticized as too slow.




www.thestar.com


----------



## Money172375

A national advisory committee is advising against the use of AZ for seniors, in spite of health Canada approval. The last thing we need is a debate on who gets which vaccine.....will just lead to hesitancy. They should have a united voice, either way.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/astra-zeneca-vaccine-naci-age-1.5932347


----------



## Money172375

I hope these online sites have some “bot” protection. Took us about a month to get a confirmed PS5 purchase. Bots got involved and overwhelmed numerous online retail sites. We probably hit “confirm your order” half a dozen times, even received purchase orders confirmations, only to have them cancelled. Would hate to see that with vaccine appointments.


----------



## gibor365

2,250 front-line Toronto police officers eligible for COVID-19 vaccine starting this week


Asked why officers have been deemed higher priority, Mayor John Tory said the province has prioritized medical first responders, a category that includes some front-line police work.




www.thestar.com





Nice  Seniors can wait ...



> To date, Ontario has administered 704,695 shots, including just over 17,400 on Sunday. About 263,000 people have been given two doses, including nursing and retirement home workers and front-line health care workers.
> 
> 
> *Last week, the province said it would stop holding second doses in reserve *because there is greater certainty in larger incoming shipments in the weeks and months ahead after shortfalls from Pfizer and Moderna in January.


So, they stopped *holding second doses in reserve* and still just 17K vaccines?! This is just "amazing" rollout LOL



> “There’s really no excuse for the government being this far behind,” NDP Leader Andrea Horwath said Monday of the delay in getting a province-wide booking system in operation, given that the first vaccines arrived in mid-December.
> 
> “That’s something that could have been done ... in December, in January,” Liberal MPP John Fraser (Ottawa South) told reporters, noting the vaccination program is “the biggest public health exercise in the history of this province.”


First time in my life I agree with those 2 buddies


----------



## Money172375

BC not holding back 2nd shot. Dr. Henry said first shot provides amazing protection. 2nd shot will be 4 months later. Could have everyone in BC with one shot done by July.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-immunization-plan-covid-1.5931543


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> BC not holding back 2nd shot. Dr. Henry said first shot provides amazing protection. 2nd shot will be 4 months later. Could have everyone in BC with one shot done by July.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-immunization-plan-covid-1.5931543


This is a good strategy, I think. Here was my earlier post where I outlined my reasoning on this:

​First shots give a person quite a bit of protection. If the choice is between having no shot, or a single shot, you're better off with a single shot.​​From what I've heard so far, I think giving as many people as possible a single shot may be the safest way forward. This ties into vaccine availability. All the manufacturers are ramping up vaccine deliveries, aggressively. At the moment there is some limited supply, so the logical thing is probably to give as many people as possible ONE shot right now.​​A couple months from now, we'll be rolling in vaccines since all the manufacturers are cranking up the machines. Canada has ordered huge numbers of doses, and once they start flooding in, we'll have limitless doses available.​​My guess is, public health will decide to get as many single shots as possible into arms ASAP while doses are limited. A few months from now, we'll have more than enough shots, plus better logistics, so it will be quite easy to finish off the second shots.​​


----------



## gibor365

Court refuses to say where Ontario judge is located. Defence lawyer says he’s presiding remotely from Barbados


Asked to clarify the Ontario Court of Justice’s pandemic policies, and asked specifically about Judge Bruce Frazer’s location, a spokesperson declined to answer the Star’s questions.




www.thestar.com





Simply amazing LOL Ontario judge is judging from Barbados


----------



## james4beach

There are some interesting slides in the BC Immunization Plan presentation from today. Skip ahead to 23:50 for notes on vaccine effectiveness.

The Pfizer & Moderna vaccines are very effective, according to BC's data. *The vaccines seem to completely halt outbreaks 3 weeks after vaccination*. I've pasted the charts below. The first chart shows long term care Covid cases, and the second shows healthcare worker Covid cases. You can see that about 3 weeks after the vaccine is given, the outbreaks stop completely.

Of course we hope that BC collected this data properly, from multiple locations and dates. But this looks very promising.


----------



## OptsyEagle

The issue surrounding whether it makes sense to give two shots to a person on the original schedule or delay it and vaccinate another with that other shot, in my opinion, works like this.

Remember, *there is no such thing as immunity*. The vaccine simply speeds up a person's own immune system to neutralize any new virus infections quicker, so that it does not have time to make a person sick, die, or in most cases even become infectious. That's what it does...and all it does, but that is also all it really needs to do.

I see the debate like this. Speeding up the neutralization process is really no different then reducing the dose of infection. Both will allow a person to be virus free much quicker. I figure the vaccine, is probably like wearing about 10 masks on your face (forget about breathing in my analogy).

The first dose is like wearing 9 masks and the 2nd dose is putting on 1 more. If you had 10 masks to put on and you noticed another person had NONE, would you not give 1 or your masks to them. Would you possibly be a little safer if everyone else had masks on as well or do you think you still should have the protection of 10. Plus, *every mask you give away turns into 9 for someone else. * You have to be kind of a prick to not offer that.

The only issue remaining is does the science back me up. Looks like it does now but it is a very short term glance at things. I think the benefits of the single dose idea more then outweigh its risks. Too bad we did not have a lot of the JNJ single shot vaccine so we would not need to even think about this.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> The first dose is like wearing 9 masks and the 2nd dose is putting on 1 more. If you had 10 masks to put on and you noticed another person had NONE, would you not give 1 or your masks to them.


I can't speak to the veracity of the 9/1 mask analogy, but even if accurate, it doesn't consider the person with 10 masks might have a guarantee of death if infected while the other person might enjoy almost no chance of death. 

The 10 mask individual is over 80 with respiratory morbidity and the 0 mask individual is a healthy 20 year old. Why offer a mask to the 20 year old regardless of the fact that they don't seem to take it serious.

The manufacturers released the vaccines with a 2 dose schedule that politicians are attempting to game. They're simply not qualified.

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> I can't speak to the veracity of the 9/1 mask analogy, but even if accurate, it doesn't consider the person with 10 masks might have a guarantee of death if infected while the other person might enjoy almost no chance of death.
> 
> The 10 mask individual is over 80 with respiratory morbidity and the 0 mask individual is a healthy 20 year old. Why offer a mask to the 20 year old regardless of the fact that they don't seem to take it serious.
> 
> The manufacturers released the vaccines with a 2 dose schedule that politicians are attempting to game. They're simply not qualified.
> 
> ltr


From what I have seen no one has a guarantee of death, but I will admit the dead were not interviewed...or perhaps that was their interview. Many people with health issues, however, did survive their covid-19 infection.

My point about no one EVER being immune is certainly valid, in this case. Even vaccinated, there is probably a big enough dose of covid-19 that can still make you sick (we saw that in the clinical studies) and possibly kill you. I don't know if anyone in the studies, with health issues, were among the infected to see how well it worked. In any event it would not matter much because they did have the 2 doses.

Your point is a good one, however, and it would be nice to perhaps seperate them out if we don't have any single dose results for them, at this stage of the vaccination program. Until then, the people with health issues do need to ensure they eliminate any infection they get before it spreads to those dangerous areas and the only way to do that, if we don't have confidence in the vaccine, is to keep the dose of infection down to survivable levels. The best level being zero virus.


----------



## newfoundlander61

The 1 shot J&J vaccine is approved in the USA will be interesting to see how long before Canada approves and when we will receive shipments.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> BC not holding back 2nd shot. Dr. Henry said first shot provides amazing protection. 2nd shot will be 4 months later. Could have everyone in BC with one shot done by July.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-immunization-plan-covid-1.5931543


Yeah, who cares what the manufacturers say, or what Health Canada approved, lets just do our own thing.

What happened to the science based approach?

But I've known for a while, politics outranks science. 
This really isn't a science and fact based process, they're just playing to the politics.

It's really disheartening to see how pathetic our politicians are, where are the real leaders who will do what's right?


----------



## MrMatt

newfoundlander61 said:


> The 1 shot J&J vaccine is approved in the USA will be interesting to see how long before Canada approves and when we will receive shipments.


Biden might as well put on a MAGA hat and yell "America First". 
It was bad when Trump was in office, but the protectionism is just getting worse under Biden/Harris.


----------



## OptsyEagle

What about this idea. Skip the 2nd shot UNTIL everyone age 65 and with health issues, has a single shot and then give those same people the 2nd shot? Then start jabbing younger healthier people.

As Matt says, it is a dangerous dark road we are travelling even though we have a few weak flashlights to help illuminate it. You still want to drive very slowly.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> What about this idea. Skip the 2nd shot UNTIL everyone age 65 and with health issues, has a single shot and then give those same people the 2nd shot? Then start jabbing younger healthier people.
> 
> As Matt says, it is a dangerous dark road we are travelling even though we have a few weak flashlights to help illuminate it. You still want to drive very slowly.


Yeah, ignore all that "sciency stuff we don't understand", and just do whatever we want.
Ever wonder why they do 2 shots? why they decided on a month separation? Not like 2 weeks, or something like that?

This whole vaccine mess is a bunch of politicians saying they know better than the experts, and the people encouraging it.

Responsible leadership is saying "No, we're going to do this right".
We clearly have a lack of leadership at almost every level.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> Yeah, ignore all that "sciency stuff we don't understand", and just do whatever we want.
> Ever wonder why they do 2 shots? why they decided on a month separation? Not like 2 weeks, or something like that?
> 
> This whole vaccine mess is a bunch of politicians saying they know better than the experts, and the people encouraging it.
> 
> Responsible leadership is saying "No, we're going to do this right".
> We clearly have a lack of leadership at almost every level.


You are right but not at a 100% level. We don't know the exact reasons why the various manufacturers did what they did. My guess is that they just wanted to increase the chances of having a successful vaccine, even if it required 2 doses. The 1 dose was more important to us then them. If they had thought about it long enough they could have done a lot more to profile their vaccines, during the trials, to understand these issues a lot better. I mean Pfizer did not even take the time (they had 6 months while they ran their trial) to see how well their vaccine worked at regular freezer temperatures, but all of a sudden, when they have a competitor that did, PRESTO a month or so later, theirs is good at normal freezer temperatures (-20C) as well. You have to see from these observations that this was not the best trial ever run in the history of trials. I imagine there is a lot we don't know.

As for the dark road we are going down now with only a weak flashlight to guide us. We are only doing that because we KNOW the other road sucks and IS very dangerous.

On this decision, the only thing I know for sure is that I am really glad I am not the one having to make it, and I can't help but offer sympathy and understanding to those that do.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> .....I mean Pfizer did not even take the time (they had 6 months while they ran their trial) to see how well their vaccine worked at regular freezer temperatures, but all of a sudden, when they have a competitor that did, PRESTO a month or so later, theirs is good at normal freezer temperatures (-20C) as well. You have to see from these observations that this was not the best trial ever run in the history of trials. I imagine there is a lot we don't know.


Yeah, I shook my head at that too. Strange about face for sure.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> You are right but not at a 100% level. We don't know the exact reasons why the various manufacturers did what they did. My guess is that they just wanted to increase the chances of having a successful vaccine, even if it required 2 doses. The 1 dose was more important to us then them. If they had thought about it long enough they could have done a lot more to profile their vaccines, during the trials, to understand these issues a lot better. I mean Pfizer did not even take the time (they had 6 months while they ran their trial) to see how well their vaccine worked at regular freezer temperatures, but all of a sudden, when they have a competitor that did, PRESTO a month or so later, theirs is good at normal freezer temperatures (-20C) as well. You have to see from these observations that this was not the best trial ever run in the history of trials. I imagine there is a lot we don't know.
> 
> As for the dark road we are going down now with only a weak flashlight to guide us. We are only doing that because we KNOW the other road sucks and IS very dangerous.
> 
> On this decision, the only thing I know for sure is that I am really glad I am not the one having to make it, and I can't help but offer sympathy and understanding to those that do.


But if you have a weak flashlight, you can at least try to stay on the road.
Turning it off and running off into the woods isn't an improvement.


They are making decisions that run contrary to the science, they don't deserve sympathy, they deserve admonishment.


----------



## sags

There was interesting commentary from an expert on CNN last night.

He said the J&J vaccine was tested in South Africa and Brazil, where there were those virus variants circulating, and the vaccine worked well.

By contrast the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines were not tested against those variants.

He said he would not be reluctant at all to take the J&J vaccine at all.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> But if you have a weak flashlight, you can at least try to stay on the road.
> Turning it off and running off into the woods isn't an improvement.
> 
> 
> They are making decisions that run contrary to the science, they don't deserve sympathy, they deserve admonishment.


It's not against science. At worst, there is not enough science. There is a difference.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> There was interesting commentary from an expert on CNN last night.
> 
> He said the J&J vaccine was tested in South Africa and Brazil, where there were those virus variants circulating, and the vaccine worked well.
> 
> By contrast the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines were not tested against those variants.
> 
> He said he would not be reluctant at all to take the J&J vaccine at all.


I am not sure there is a specific difference that is proving one vaccine to be significantly better then the other. There are a tremendous number of variables that all get mixed up and confused with all these studies and efficacies and variants in so many different countries under so many different situations. The most important being, when did the trial take place and when did the variant come into existence and how much was around by the end of the trial? 

The first issue I think is deciding on what the end game is. In a perfect world, the vaccine would ensure that no one would ever get sick or be infectious. In the world we live in, perhaps we need to be happy with just surviving. My gut feeling, from what I have observed is that ALL the vaccines currently available will probably keep almost everyone alive when put up against the worst variant so far, the South African variant (I have not investigated the Brazilian so I can't say).

The next question is, how old were the people that survived it. The question after that. How large of infecting dose did these people, that survived it, get exposed to and how do those doses compare to the doses that will be going around WHEN WE FINALLY DROP ALL OF OUR DOSE REDUCING PRECAUTIONS? I don't think we are ever going to know the answers to all the important questions until we use the vaccines.

Lastly, I am not even sure they will be able to come up with a vaccine that is more effective for the variants. They might, they might not. You see, if the problem with the vaccine's efficacy from the variant is solely due to people obtaining higher then average doses of infection because the variant is more infectious to begin with, then will using a different spike protein in the vaccine that is specific to the variant, actually be enough to kick our immune system into a faster response? It is very possible that our immune systems are going to respond as quick as they can ever be, from the current vaccines, for almost any mutation of this corona virus. I don't know, but these are the things I think about. Until then, I would suggest you take any vaccine offered to you, until we know a lot more.


----------



## gibor365

On week of Feb 22 , I've read








Canada to receive record 640K vaccine doses this week with Pfizer, Moderna deliveries


Canada is poised to receive a record number of COVID-19 vaccine doses this week thanks to scheduled deliveries from Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna, as the country looks to speed up its vaccination efforts.




www.ctvnews.ca





but even today just 22K vaccine was administrated (+/- 2K for the whole week).... I don't get where all those 640K vaccines?


----------



## Spudd

gibor365 said:


> On week of Feb 22 , I've read
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada to receive record 640K vaccine doses this week with Pfizer, Moderna deliveries
> 
> 
> Canada is poised to receive a record number of COVID-19 vaccine doses this week thanks to scheduled deliveries from Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna, as the country looks to speed up its vaccination efforts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but even today just 22K vaccine was administrated (+/- 2K for the whole week).... I don't get where all those 640K vaccines?


According to this website which seems to be an official govt site: 




__





COVID-19 Tracker Canada - Vaccination Tracker


Real-time COVID-19 vaccination updates for every region in Canada, tracking doses of Moderna, Pfizer-BioNTech and AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine delivered and administered to Canadians.



covid19tracker.ca




there have been almost 53k administered today, not 22k. The rolling 7-day average right now is 56k/day. 

It still doesn't add up to 640k but the 640k is just what we received, not administered. It needs to be shipped around the country and actually administered, that's not instant.


----------



## OptsyEagle

A 4 minute audio clip on the Novavax vaccine. 

He says it is 90% effective against the original strain, 86% effective against the UK variant and around 60% effective against the SA variant. He also seems to think it won't be difficult to tweak the vaccines for a new variant. Hopefully that is not just wishful thinking.









Novavax Vaccine Appears 86% Effective Against U.K's COVID-19 Variant


Vaccine maker Novavax is waiting for its COVID-19 vaccine to be approved in the U.K., and is hopeful that U.S. approval will follow. NPR's Steve Inskeep speaks to Novavax CEO Stanley Erck.




www.npr.org


----------



## gibor365

Spudd said:


> According to this website which seems to be an official govt site:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Tracker Canada - Vaccination Tracker
> 
> 
> Real-time COVID-19 vaccination updates for every region in Canada, tracking doses of Moderna, Pfizer-BioNTech and AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine delivered and administered to Canadians.
> 
> 
> 
> covid19tracker.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there have been almost 53k administered today, not 22k. The rolling 7-day average right now is 56k/day.
> 
> It still doesn't add up to 640k but the 640k is just what we received, not administered. It needs to be shipped around the country and actually administered, that's not instant.


I'm tracking Ontario vaccination on daily basis... 22K it's for Ontario

P.S. Canada is still on 52th place in the World by daily vaccination rate (so far it doesn't seem if we have supply or not ).
Israel , who practically done vaccination, is vaccinated 730% more on daily basis than Canada


----------



## Eder

Greg Abbott

@GregAbbott_TX
· 7h
I just announced Texas is OPEN 100%. EVERYTHING. I also ended the statewide mask mandate.


*Reeves lifting Mississippi mask mandates, says businesses can operate at full capacity*




https://news.yahoo.com/reeves-lifting-mississippi-mask-mandates-020700139.html


----------



## gibor365

Greg Abbott is a smart men!


----------



## Eder

OK wtf I thought we had a pandemic where our ICU's were over capacity...at least in Alberta the ICU staff got to relax a bit more in 2020.















Admissions into Alberta’s intensive care units (ICUs) actually dropped last year, says an internal Alberta Health Services memo obtained by the _Western Standard_.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> Greg Abbott
> 
> @GregAbbott_TX
> · 7h
> I just announced Texas is OPEN 100%. EVERYTHING. I also ended the statewide mask mandate.


Just in time for Spring Break. This guy is a dangerous lunatic! He's opening all businesses and ending the mask rules.

First he mismanages the emergency response (failed Texas electric grid), leaving citizens freezing in the dark. Now he's going to let the pandemic spread like wildfire. This kind of government is deadly.

I feel really bad for Texans. They are suffering so much under terrible leadership.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> ... I feel really bad for Texans. They are suffering so much under terrible leadership.


 ... nah, not for the red-necks who follow that kind of leadership ... like a cult.


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> Greg Abbott is a smart men!


 ... yah, a really smart man lacking a brain. 

I wonder if there such a thing as Public Health in any city/county in Texas? And if there is, what is it doing other than collecting its taxpayers money?


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I feel really bad for Texans. They are suffering so much under terrible leadership.


Most of us are, do you remember what they were doing in New York at the beginning of this?
It was like they were trying to kill as many people as they could.

Not that we're perfect here, Trudeau still hasn't bothered to close the borders and enforce a quarantine.


----------



## Money172375

Gibor- any insights into Israel’s numbers?


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> On week of Feb 22 , I've read
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada to receive record 640K vaccine doses this week with Pfizer, Moderna deliveries
> 
> 
> Canada is poised to receive a record number of COVID-19 vaccine doses this week thanks to scheduled deliveries from Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna, as the country looks to speed up its vaccination efforts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but even today just 22K vaccine was administrated (+/- 2K for the whole week).... I don't get where all those 640K vaccines?


You've got Trudeaus government making promises of what will happen, and the provincial governments reporting what they were actually able to get and process.

I would expect what's actually happening is we are getting far fewer doses than what Trudeau is predicting.


----------



## andrewf

Interesting that Israel is generating 5x the cases per week as Canada despite being mostly vaccinated!


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> OK wtf I thought we had a pandemic where our ICU's were over capacity...at least in Alberta the ICU staff got to relax a bit more in 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admissions into Alberta’s intensive care units (ICUs) actually dropped last year, says an internal Alberta Health Services memo obtained by the _Western Standard_.


That's annualized data.
The problem is the spikes
Here in Ontario we filled, or almost filled ICU's a few time.
We also delayed a LOT of treatment to ensure enough beds were available.

So instead of having a surgery and using the bed, it sat empty in case a COVID patient needed it.

Fortuneately we didn't overfill our ICU's, unfortunately this was at the expense of many people not getting the care they needed during that time.

Lets say for the year instead of running at 80% capacity +- 10%, they were running at 70% +-30%. 
During COVID they were really trying to avoid scenario 2


----------



## OptsyEagle

andrewf said:


> Interesting that Israel is generating 5x the cases per week as Canada despite being mostly vaccinated!


That is interesting. Hopefully it means, barring some other unknown reason, that it is a result of the fact that in Israel a larger number of people are exposed to a larger active case count. If this is the case, perhaps Canada, with a much larger area for its population, might obtain herd immunity with a lower vaccination percentage.

That said, I imagine Toronto and Montreal, etc., will need the higher vaccination percentage no matter what number the rest of the country might get away with.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Interesting that Israel is generating 5x the cases per week as Canada despite being mostly vaccinated!


Yeah, I find that troubling. I wonder if it's just a time delay issue, or maybe they still haven't hit the threshold for 'herd immunity' (which is very high).

Data from localized outbreaks seems to show the vaccines are very effective.

In any case it shows that we have to continue to be extremely cautious even once vaccines start. And vaccines aren't the end of the story until they achieve herd immunity, which requires a very high % uptake rate.

My guess (and hope) is that Israel's numbers are reflecting the already very high rate of spread & infection before vaccination started. Israel was in bad shape before vaccines began. And the vaccines take 3 weeks to kick in immunity. We could still be seeing case numbers from many weeks ago, or maybe new infections before that "3 week" wait has completed.

Plus, rapid community spread continues without herd immunity thresholds reached. For quite a while we have to stick with the established techniques.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Gibor- any insights into Israel’s numbers?


Israel did 205% more tests than Canada per 1M population. (from big countries only UK, Denmark and UAE had more).








Coronavirus Update (Live): 115,549,034 Cases and 2,565,030 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer


Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...




www.worldometers.info




More tests are done, more number of cases per capita.
Deaths 7 days moving average in Israel 22, in Canada 40, the peak in both countries was on Jan 26 Israel 62, Canada 163.
_Israeli data suggest mass vaccinations led to drop in severe Covid cases, CDC study finds - _so, new cases are mostly mild

You need to know demographic of Israel.... Vast majority of Israel population is concentrated in 2 big areas Big Tel Aviv and Big Haifa and cities between them (2 hours drive from TA to Haifa).
Also, I suppose (didn't look at exact data) that majority of new cases are among ultra-ortodox community (who live extremely concentrated and they don't want to be vaccinated as "everything is coming from God" ) and Arab sector (they also live in their towns and not really eager to be vaccinated). Israel doesn't do vaccination to kids below grade 10 - many cases in this group.

And don't forget that Israel started vaccination barely 2 months ago...they just doing it extremely fast...so obviously there will be a backlog


----------



## james4beach

There was a BC infectious disease expert on local CBC radio explaining the science of delaying the second MRNA dose (e.g. first dose now, second in 4 months). I sent the following to my friends & family as well, paraphrasing what the BC expert said:


At the time the vaccine was made, these were the first mass
vaccination MRNA vaccines ever released. The manufacturers probably
weren't sure how effective they would be in the wild. The range of
second dose intervals is quite wide in most vaccines, anywhere up to 6
months. Selecting the interval is a bit of an art.

The BC expert points out the manufacturer's guidance was an unusually
short second dose interval. She thinks this was probably because the
manufacturer wanted to ensure there was effectiveness, perhaps
concerned the immune response was not strong enough.

( Added by me: my own research on previous MRNA vaccines showed that
some earlier attempts had not been effective enough due to
insufficient immune response )

The expert goes on to say, the big news (big change) was the real
world data on just how effective the _first_ dose of MRNA vaccine is.
The BC data, plus data they have from Israel and elsewhere, showed
surprisingly high effectiveness. For example the first dose completely
stops outbreaks in healthcare settings, 3 weeks after being given.

She thinks this is more useful real world data than what the
manufacturer had. There is no concern about the first dose being too
weak. Therefore she thinks it's perfectly reasonable to extend the
interval closer towards the "norm" for vaccines, rather than the
surprisingly short initial guidance.

She also points out that immune response does not trail off very
quickly. It lasts, and she thinks even if second doses were given at 6
months, it would probably still be perfectly good.

She says (and I completely agree) that the 4 month interval is a good
optimization to the supply constraints. This allows first doses in as
many people as possible, which (according to existing data) gives very
strong protection.

We'll have much more supply several months from now, and the exact
timing of the second dose isn't so critical anyway.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> There is no concern about the first dose being too
> weak.


Then why the second dose at all?
Are you saying the regulators are in bed with the manufacturers to sell twice as much as is needed?



> She also points out that immune response does not trail off very
> quickly.


I'd love to see the data on that.
There was some early data suggesting immunity could be very short lasting.



> She says (and I completely agree) that the 4 month interval is a good
> optimization to the supply constraints.


That might be true, but it might not be.
Remember there were "reputable experts" saying that masks aren't effective at slowing the spread of COVID.

Unless this expert shows some data to back up these claims, I'll stick with the opinion of the manufacturers and regulators, not some "expert" who won't show their work.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Remember there were "reputable experts" saying that masks aren't effective at slowing the spread of COVID.


Not to knock mask use (a useful protection option) but I'm curious ...

If masks were really so darn effective, why the need for lockdowns?


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Not to knock mask use (a useful protection option) but I'm curious ...
> 
> If masks were really so darn effective, why the need for lockdowns?


Lockdowns, restrictions, handwashing, masks. The whole idea is to slow it down. None of them will be perfect, but combined they can do great things.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Lockdowns, restrictions, handwashing, masks. The whole idea is to slow it down. None of them will be perfect, but combined they can do great things.


Right, multi layered approach. Different measures stop it in different places.

For example there are many people who live together in houses (roommates, large families). These people can't wear masks at home, so they will ... and absolutely do! ... spread it to each other. Typically, everyone in a shared house will catch it.

Lockdowns help restrict the mixing/spread _between_ households, because in private gatherings again, people usually don't wear masks. Look at how the numbers exploded after Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Another example, I'm a single person and I met with some friends a week ago for food & drinks. Here we are mixing two households, no masks, high risk of spread. But even if we spread it the hope is that it's contained between us. Other measures like closing borders and lockdowns are then aimed to stop it from "breaking out" from me, to the wider public.

It's one thing to have an outbreak among a household or two household bubble (not a big deal), vs, spread into the wider community (disastrous).

I wish the Public Health officials had spent more time communicating all of these things to the public, perhaps using visualizations. The public messaging should have been better because we're now a year into this, and many people still don't understand how the disease spreads.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I wish the Public Health officials had spent more time communicating all of these things to the public, perhaps using visualizations. The public messaging should have been better because we're now a year into this, and many people still don't understand how the disease spreads.


Oh I think that many understand, but they don't care, they've had enough.

It's inconvenient, and everyone from the PM on down has been violating these restrictions from the beginning, so they're just tired and frustrated.

The PM himself has been travelling through different provinces and participating in mass gatherings, senior government leaders are flying around the world on vacation.
Others are even today, simply walking past police to avoid quarantine travel restrictions.

Ordinary, law abiding Canadians are tired of it.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Ordinary, law abiding Canadians are tired of it.


Then they will spread it, and many will die in the process. Just like the Texans.

I understand frustrations, but like I said from day one, this is a war. It's not easy to win wars, especially against invisible enemies. Did anyone think this would be easy or straightforward?

I for one am not going to give up on masks and start doing "whatever I want", because that will likely result in more seniors dying ... and I don't think they are disposable people.

Plus as I keep mentioning, my 35 year old relative... healthy guy... ended up in hospital with covid & pneumonia. He almost died. Everyone SHOULD be selfish about this and remember that their own life is on the line.


----------



## Money172375

Trudeau now saying vaccine end date could come sooner than end of Sept. co tinted lies or bold confidence given the current state?



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-possible-vaccination-campaign-ends-sooner-1.5934994


----------



## Money172375

500,000 AZ arrived today via fedex. Most provinces not distributing to 65+. Targeting 60-64. I‘ve read that these doses expire in one month. Will need to get going soon.....









Canada receives 1st AstraZeneca vaccine shipment as confusion lingers - National | Globalnews.ca


Questions about who should receive the Oxford-AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine continue amid conflicting guidance about its use.




globalnews.ca


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Lockdowns, restrictions, handwashing, masks. The whole idea is to slow it down. None of them will be perfect, but combined they can do great things.


Understood but as we've seen (when masks were already manditory) lockdowns truely made the difference in the numbers.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Understood but as we've seen (when masks were already manditory) lockdowns truely made the difference in the numbers.


Well I think lockdowns are like abstinence and masks are like condoms.

Which now that I think about it is probably a pretty good analog.


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> Well I think lockdowns are like abstinence and masks are like condoms.
> 
> Which now that I think about it is probably a pretty good analog.


ya, but would you trust a home made condom, or a pack of 5 for $5 from the Dollar store?


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Then they will spread it, and many will die in the process. Just like the Texans.
> 
> I understand frustrations, but like I said from day one, this is a war. It's not easy to win wars, especially against invisible enemies. Did anyone think this would be easy or straightforward?
> 
> *I for one am not going to give up on masks and start doing "whatever I want", because that will likely result in more seniors dying ... and I don't think they are disposable people.*
> 
> Plus as I keep mentioning, my 35 year old relative... healthy guy... ended up in hospital with covid & pneumonia. He almost died. *Everyone SHOULD be selfish about this and remember that their own life is on the line.*


 .. I define that kind of "selfishness" as having "personal responsibility" and having a "(good) conscience" to themselves and society. The world doesn't just revolves around the me-myself-and-I-am-tired whiners.


----------



## Eder

I think Canada should learn from Hawaii how to get travel moving again.

10k/day tourists arriving with a clean Covid test & off they go to enjoy their vacation.
Restaurants & churches at 100% capacity.
.48% positivity rate today. Oahu is at .2%
Things pretty much back to normal other than the mask wearing in stores and on Waikiki sidewalks.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> 500,000 AZ arrived today via fedex. Most provinces not distributing to 65+. Targeting 60-64. I‘ve read that these doses expire in one month. Will need to get going soon.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada receives 1st AstraZeneca vaccine shipment as confusion lingers - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Questions about who should receive the Oxford-AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine continue amid conflicting guidance about its use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


I'm afraid that while provinces will be debating who is gonna get AZ, the vaccines are gonna expire


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> I think Canada should learn from Hawaii how to get travel moving again.
> 
> 10k/day tourists arriving with a clean Covid test & off they go to enjoy their vacation.
> Restaurants & churches at 100% capacity.
> .48% positivity rate today. Oahu is at .2%
> Things pretty much back to normal other than the mask wearing in stores and on Waikiki sidewalks.


Yeah I agree, Hawaii has been pretty impressive.

Then again they are an island, and all the island nations are doing great. Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Taiwan all have this major advantage.

This makes it impossible to directly compare to countries like Canada. Though I agree that we should learn as much as we can from places like Australia, Taiwan, Hawaii


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Yeah I agree, Hawaii has been pretty impressive.
> 
> Then again they are an island, and all the island nations are doing great. Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Taiwan all have this major advantage.
> 
> This makes it impossible to directly compare to countries like Canada. Though I agree that we should learn as much as we can from places like Australia, Taiwan, Hawaii


The thing is all those places enforced strict quarantine measures and lockdowns.
Canada still isn't enforcing the quarantine at the border. Even at airports we're failing.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Well I think lockdowns are like abstinence and masks are like condoms.
> 
> Which now that I think about it is probably a pretty good analog.


Only if the condoms were full of holes and most often not used properly.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> The thing is all those places enforced strict quarantine measures and lockdowns.
> Canada still isn't enforcing the quarantine at the border. Even at airports we're failing.


That's true. Canada should have been stricter at the borders.


----------



## Eder

Ha


MrMatt said:


> The thing is all those places enforced strict quarantine measures and lockdowns.
> Canada still isn't enforcing the quarantine at the border. Even at airports we're failing.


Hawaii didn't/doesn't enforce anything...basically honour system & quarantine. We did it though. We waltzed thru the airport.

Right now if you show up with a Covid test you are gtg anywhere/anything...same since October...their quarantine for those that don't get a test its a home 10 day quarantine.

If I want to fly from here theres a large trailer at the Honolulu airport that will give you Covid test results in 4 hours...maybe Canada can buy one and no need for the roach motel gulag.

I think we are in a different world in Canada...no one is trying to make things better.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> I think Canada should learn from Hawaii how to get travel moving again.
> 
> 10k/day tourists arriving with a clean Covid test & off they go to enjoy their vacation.
> Restaurants & churches at 100% capacity.
> .48% positivity rate today. Oahu is at .2%
> Things pretty much back to normal other than the mask wearing in stores and on Waikiki sidewalks.


Just before Trudeau ordered to put returning tourists for 3 days in "refugee camp", we were planning to go to St. Lucia ...
They reopened tourism many months ago. You just need proof of negative test 7 days before arrival....
And their stats are pretty impressive.... during whole pandemic , they had just 2803 cases and 39 deaths


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> Ha
> 
> 
> Hawaii didn't/doesn't enforce anything...basically honour system & quarantine. We did it though. We waltzed thru the airport.
> 
> Right now if you show up with a Covid test you are gtg anywhere/anything...same since October...their quarantine for those that don't get a test its a home 10 day quarantine.
> 
> If I want to fly from here theres a large trailer at the Honolulu airport that will give you Covid test results in 4 hours...maybe Canada can buy one and no need for the roach motel gulag.


Our friend went to Hawaii with his girlfriend at Xmas time ... He says it was amazing ... no any Covid related issues.



> I think we are in a different world in Canada...no one is trying to make things better.


 In Canada they want to punish travelers and charge additional "tourist-tax". Obviously 3 days in those "refugee camps" make situation worse. Just watch videos what's going on there..
14 days home quarantine is more than enough and it should've been introduced last March! Or rent to tourists ankle bracelets or any other devices that work to *monitor* an individual's location.


----------



## gibor365

> Jones said the Oxford-AstraZeneca shot will not be administered through mass immunization clinics but through a *“different pathway,”* although she did not elaborate on what that would be.
> 
> Ontario said earlier this week that it was following the advice of the national vaccine panel that recommended against using the Oxford-AstraZeneca shot on people aged 65 and older due to limited data on its effectiveness in seniors.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> I think we are in a different world in Canada...no one is trying to make things better.


I agree that the mandatory tests are important, but there are other factors you are neglecting.

It tends to be rich people going to Hawaii, low Covid risk. The nature of Hawaii tourism probably filters a bunch of low risk people (for carrying Covid) to begin with. Most of the people going to Hawaii will be old & wealthy.

They are an expensive tourist island. It's not the same scenario as protecting Canada.

Similarly: some of the safest restaurants and bars to go to in Canada will be the very high end, expensive ones that are frequented by rich old people. In comparison, "dive bars", nightclubs, or youth hangouts will be quite a bit more dangerous. When restaurants etc are open again, I plan to hang out in the most expensive establishments for a while (where young & poor people can't go).

Same story in Hawaii. On my last trip to Maui, everywhere I went, all I saw were old people golfing. This isn't your Covid-spreading "party crowd".

An American friend of mine is currently vacationing and hanging out in southeast Asia. He, *and everyone he knows*, caught Covid. They absolutely are the young, Covid-spreading party crowd. They break rules and even forge tests. They smuggle alcohol, hold secret parties, and violate local covid restrictions. The kinds of destinations these guys would go are Mexico, Latin America, or southeast Asia ... cheap cheap cheap

But these kinds of guys don't go to Hawaii. So that's part of the Hawaii story, with low covid rates.


----------



## OptsyEagle

daughterofgirl said:


> When you get a vaccine, you are injected with this virus, right?


That is not correct. If you go back through this thread a I believe there is a list of all the vaccines and how they are made. If you can't find it a quick google search should help. These vaccines are very safe and you have no concern of infection. Almost all symptoms from vaccination come from your bodies immune response...which is actually a good sign.

Today's vaccines are usually made from pieces of a virus or weakened virus, which is pretty close to the same thing as dead virus I believe, but can't for sure. In any case, NO LIVE VIRUS is used in vaccines.

They use to do that about 100 plus years ago. Actually, they figured out that using low doses of live virus or weakened (dead) virus could protect a person from a virus infection BEFORE humans even knew what a virus infection was. Thankfully, because of them and a lot of other discoveries, we are at the level of understanding we have today. Without it, and of course the precautions we put in place, this virus would have taken quite a toll on this world. The only upside would have been that this virus was so uniquely infectious, the pandemic would probably have been fizzling down to almost nothing by now (herd immunity), but with millions more dead and millions more probably with long term health issues and a massive number of people taking a lot of sick days and an unmeasurable amount of mental health issues from the ensuing fear that would have created.


----------



## Money172375

Money172375 said:


> Trudeau now saying vaccine end date could come sooner than end of Sept. co tinted lies or bold confidence given the current state?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-possible-vaccination-campaign-ends-sooner-1.5934994


In addition to Trudeau, Ontario’s Minister of Health is also saying vaccines should occur sooner than thought. Updates plans to be released imminently.





__





CityNews







toronto.citynews.ca


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> In addition to Trudeau, Ontario’s Minister of Health is also saying vaccines should occur sooner than thought. Updates plans to be released imminently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CityNews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.citynews.ca





> Health Canada says a decision on the Johnson & Johnson vaccine will be announced in the “next few days.”
> 
> The word came Thursday from Dr. Marc Berthiaume, director of the regulator’s bureau of medical sciences.
> 
> Once approved, the J&J product would become the fourth vaccine available for use in Canada. It was approved last weekend in the United States.


This is so funny when Canada Health pretends to do huge work! LOL
If it's approved by FDA, no point to pretend , it would be huge LOL if Health Canada doesn't approve it !!!!



> The Ontario government is currently working on a vaccination booking portal that would allow people to register for their vaccine appointment, but several health units, including York, Halton and Durham Region, have already introduced their own.


What a mess! This is simply ridiculous! The province had full year to manage it properly, but Hell NO...


----------



## gibor365

How an early morning phone call with Israel could speed up Ontario’s vaccine rollout


Israel is steps ahead of other nations in vaccine distribution. In a phone call earlier this year with Ontario’s COVID-19 science advisory table, officials detailed how they got ahead.




www.thestar.com





P.S. you can read article for free using Outline - Read & annotate without distractions


----------



## gibor365

> Residents returning to the country can now either go into quarantine in government-specified hotels or they can choose to wear an electronic bracelet so they can fulfil isolation requirements at home.


Exactly what i was talking about for last couple of weeks! Why Israel can do it in civilized way and Canada cannot?!


----------



## Beaver101

^ One or the other ... returning people ain't even following the first option (just pay that 7/8 hundred dollars fine and off they go), and who is gonna to track (or train first and pay those to track) the electronic bracelets for the same kind of flouters? Sheesh.


----------



## gibor365

Beaver101 said:


> ^ One or the other ... returning people ain't even following the first option (just pay that 7/8 hundred dollars fine and off they go), and who is gonna to track (or train first and pay those to track) the electronic bracelets for the same kind of flouters? Sheesh.


Who is gonna track?! Police! They are using those for house arrest


----------



## sags

People can travel and stay there until the pandemic is over. No fuss no muss.

If that doesn't work out for them.......it is their problem. We will let them know when they are allowed to come back.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> People can travel and stay there until the pandemic is over. No fuss no muss.
> 
> If that doesn't work out for them.......it is their problem. We will let them know when they are allowed to come back.


You are a typical Liberal LOL. better to say commie 

Maybe all restrictions should be lifted ?! "If that doesn't work out for them.......it is their problem"


----------



## sags

Commies won't let people leave. We don't want them coming back.

They could be full of contamination and such. Better they stay away until it is safe for us to allow them back.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Commies won't let people leave. We don't want them coming back full of contamination and such. Better they stay away until it is safe.


It's a lie! Communist Chine let people leave , as well as did Soviet union ..., but yeas, Soviet union didn't let people who left back.

No country in the World says _People can travel and stay there until the pandemic is over. No fuss no muss. _
You are worse than commies!


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> Who is gonna track?! Police! They are using those for house arrest


 ... which "police"? The cops from Mississauga? or those from Toronto? or those from Hamilton or those from ... pick your spot. As if the cops are fiddling their thumbs with not enough to do ... LOL. [Don't forget the overtime that'll be coming out of your pockets as a complaining taxpayer.]


----------



## gibor365

and Trudeau is welcoming hundreds thousands of pseudo-refugees "who could be chock full of contamination and such. "


----------



## Eder

james4beach said:


> It tends to be rich people going to Hawaii, low Covid risk. The nature of Hawaii tourism probably filters a bunch of low risk people (for carrying Covid) to begin with. Most of the people going to Hawaii will be old & wealthy.


The average tourist age in Hawaii is 45...not that old...most are coming from Covid ridden mainland.
You might think its an old crowd here if you stayed at Kaanapali but in Maui the young uns hang on the windward side

Same with Oahu...the young scene is Haleiwa, North Shore area and the windward side Kailua area.

Spring breakers are piling in, though I doubt many Canadians will come due to Trudeau's gulag.


----------



## gibor365

Beaver101 said:


> ... which "police"? The cops from Mississauga? or those from Toronto? or those from Hamilton or those from ... pick your spot. As if the cops are fiddling their thumbs with not enough to do ... LOL.


Cops from areas where travellers are living ... Cops here anyway doing nothing.
Sure, Isreal can do it, but or Canada is too complicated LOL
Looks like our police system retarded exactly as our health system


----------



## Eder

Trudeau pontificating on the great vaccine job he is doing reminds me of China telling their serfs that grain production is up, rice supplies have increased....meanwhile everyone continues starving.

Justin learning from the best.


----------



## Beaver101

^^ I'll leave you to provide your suggestion to the head of whichever police force you favour. And see how far you get.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> Trudeau pontificating on the great vaccine job he is doing reminds me of China telling their serfs that grain production is up, rice supplies have increased....meanwhile everyone continues starving.
> 
> Justin learning from the best.


Same things were in Soviet Union! They also liked to compare numbers vs 1913


----------



## sags

Canada's border should be "restricted access"...........like a nuclear plant. 

It doesn't matter where you were born......you aren't getting in.


----------



## gibor365

Beaver101 said:


> ^^ I'll leave you to provide your suggestion to the head of whichever police force you favour. And see how far you get.


Before pandemic, Halton police was hunting on Derry road for vehicles with expired stickers... Now you don't need valid sticker.... so they can easily track returning citizens on quarantine


----------



## sags

We wouldn't let anyone come back carrying 50 vials of virus.

Yet, the same results could happen from an infected traveler who contaminated 50 other people after they returned.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> Canada's border should be "restricted access"...........like a nuclear plant.
> 
> It doesn't matter where you were born......you aren't getting in.


We have these pesky things called 'laws' and 'rights', unfortunately.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> We have these pesky things called 'laws' and 'rights', unfortunately.


'laws' and 'rights' aren't relevant for commies LOL and they are gonna vote for party who gives more "free money"


----------



## milhouse

gibor365 said:


> This is so funny when Canada Health pretends to do huge work! LOL
> If it's approved by FDA, no point to pretend , it would be huge LOL if Health Canada doesn't approve it !!!!


In some ways it's duplicate work but you do kind of hope they perform independent analysis.
You look at the 737 Max fiasco and the lack of a proper review of its certification in the States and lack of independent analysis & review in Canada let us down.


----------



## gibor365

milhouse said:


> In some ways it's duplicate work but you do kind of hope they perform independent analysis.
> You look at the 737 Max fiasco and the lack of a proper review of its certification in the States and lack of independent analysis & review in Canada let us down.


It's not relevant at all! ... and it would be a joke if Canada is doing "independent analysis" and ban 737 LOL

Whole World is laughing at Canada vaccine rollout ... it would be extremely funny if Health Canada bans JNJ vaccine after FDA approval  , to same degree if Mongolia bans Moderma


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> Whole World is laughing at Canada vaccine rollout


No, that's just in your mind. In fact many countries in the world are angry at Canada for hoarding (securing) so many doses, far more than we need to vaccinate our whole population.

Some countries don't even have orders to vaccinate everyone. Our vaccination is going slowly, but we have guaranteed that more than enough doses are coming to vaccinate everyone.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> No, that's just in your mind. In fact many countries in the world are angry at Canada for hoarding (securing) so many doses, far more than we need to vaccinate our whole population.
> 
> Some countries don't even have orders to vaccinate everyone. Our vaccination is going slowly, but we have guaranteed that more than enough doses are coming to vaccinate everyone.


Everyone is laughing that our "secured" doses are only on paper , but in reality Canada is on 58th place in the World by vaccination rate per capita


----------



## gibor365

Today I watched Ford was braving to whole World that Ontario beat their own record in vaccination rate with 30K vaccines administered .... I was LOL as even with this record , Ontario is on 54th place in Daily vaccination rate per capita!
What a jerk!


----------



## milhouse

gibor365 said:


> It's not relevant at all! ... and it would be a joke if Canada is doing "independent analysis" and ban 737 LOL


Maybe I'm not understanding your point then? Are you not saying Canada should not be doing independent reviews and just follow the US' lead on everything?

And by the same logic then, are you're saying that Marc Garneau was right to NOT ground the 737 Max like the US did not, immediately after the two crashes, even though other international air regulators grounded them immediately?



gibor365 said:


> Whole World is laughing at Canada vaccine rollout ... it would be extremely funny if Health Canada bans JNJ vaccine after FDA approval  , to same degree if Mongolia bans Moderma


It doesn't have to be all or nothing decsion like how AstraZeneca for example isn't approved for people over 65 in some countries.
Part of the problem and advantage is that new trial data is constantly coming in. 
I don't love the supply shortage and slow rollout either. But half glass full, being later does give us more and up to date trial data, not just from a safety perspective but from a rollout perspective like longer periods between shots being ok or maybe certain vaccines being better geared towards certain demographics.


----------



## gibor365

> Are you not saying Canada should not be doing independent reviews and just follow the US' lead on everything?


On important things like JNJ vaccine approval , for sure! They gonna wait week or 2 after JNJ approval and approve it 100%!


> It doesn't have to be all or nothing decsion like how AstraZeneca for example isn't approved for people over 65 in some countries.


 OK, so Canada 2-3 weeks after EU approval , also approved it for everybody, but with some doubt.... kinda let provinces to decide....


> being later does give us more and up to date trial data, not just from a safety perspective but from a rollout perspective like longer periods between shots being ok or maybe certain vaccines being better geared towards certain demographics.


Do we really need up to date data when people are dying?! Still 2 best vaccines from Day 1 are PFE and Moderma ///
" longer periods between shots being " our "leaders" are talking now, it just because we don't have enough vaccines (despite #1 in the World by securing it on paper)... just check the data... Canada is moving between 52 to 59th place in the World by vaccine administration per capita ! Is Canada really a G7 country?!

P.S Boeing 737 Max thing is not relavant, but in any case ,On_ March 13, 2019, the FAA found similarities between the two accidents and grounded the plane... _If Liberal Minister of Transport Marc Garneau was getting some money from Boeing , it just shows who are our Ministers are


----------



## Money172375




----------



## gibor365

So, as everyone knew JNJ vaccine is approved , 6 days after FDA approval

Again Canada has a lot of vaccines "on the paper" , but Hells know when we gonna get them 



> Canada has ordered 10 million doses from Johnson & Johnson, with options for up to 28 million more.
> 
> Joëlle Paquette, director general for vaccines at Public Services and Procurement Canada, said yesterday that doses aren't expected to begin arriving until April, although the full order of 10 million should be delivered by September.


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> So, as everyone knew JNJ vaccine is approved , 6 days after FDA approval
> 
> Again Canada has a lot of vaccines "on the paper" , but Hells know when we gonna get them


Ontario has set a goal to have every adult with their first shot by June 20. Even if they’re late a month, this is good news.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Ontario has set a goal to have everyone with their first shot by June 20. Even if they’re late a month, this is good news.


Rarely such goals are achievable 

I'm more interested to know when our "leader" will lift 3 days mandatory hotel stay after arriving to Canada...


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Ontario has set a goal to have everyone with their first shot by June 20. Even if they’re late a month, this is good news.


Impossible goal.
There isn't even an approved vaccine for several million Canadians.


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> Impossible goal.
> There isn't even an approved vaccine for several million Canadians.


are you speaking of non-adults? If so, I have revised my post.

are there particular reasons you keep bringing up this fact that vaccines haven’t been approved for children? All vaccines have prescribed age distributions. Perhaps we’ll end up with a vaccine that is given to children once they turn 18....just as we wait til age 12-14 for HPV vaccines or 65 for shingles.

in Ontario, there have been 2 deaths under the age of 19, representing less than 0.1%. So, let’s estimate less than 10 children nationwide.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> are you speaking of non-adults? If so, I have revised my post.
> 
> are there particular reasons you keep bringing up this fact that vaccines haven’t been approved for children?


Yes, because I keep hearing about "all Canadians". 
I'm just pointing out that they're lying. Either that or they don't consider children people.



> All vaccines have prescribed age distributions. Perhaps we’ll end up with a vaccine that is given to children once they turn 18....just as we wait til age 12-14 for HPV vaccines or 65 for shingles.


Okay, so we'll have several million Canadians unvaccinated.



> in Ontario, there have been 2 deaths under the age of 19, representing less than 0.1%. So, let’s estimate less than 10 children nationwide.


Is this about deaths, or about sufficient immunity to stop COVID19?


I'm okay if they said "all Canadians over 18", or "all people I care about", or whatever other phrasing they want.
But quite simply when they say "all Canadians" will have the vaccine, I want you to stand in front of your child saying "well yeah, everyone except kids", do you want to be the one telling them the government doesn't consider them a Canadian?


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> Yes, because I keep hearing about "all Canadians".
> I'm just pointing out that they're lying. Either that or they don't consider children people.
> 
> 
> Okay, so we'll have several million Canadians unvaccinated.
> 
> 
> Is this about deaths, or about sufficient immunity to stop COVID19?
> 
> 
> I'm okay if they said "all Canadians over 18", or "all people I care about", or whatever other phrasing they want.
> But quite simply when they say "all Canadians" will have the vaccine, I want you to stand in front of your child saying "well yeah, everyone except kids", do you want to be the one telling them the government doesn't consider them a Canadian?


I don’t think it’s lying.....they often catch themselves saying “everyone who is eligible” or something similar. It isn’t the governments fault the vaccines aren’t approved for children. 
Are children really walking around worrying about their access to vaccines? If they are, that’s on the parents.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> I don’t think it’s lying.....they often catch themselves saying “everyone who is eligible” or something similar. It isn’t the governments fault the vaccines aren’t approved for children.
> Are children really walking around worrying about their access to vaccines? If they are, that’s on the parents.


Well ****, everyone who was eligible was vaccinated back in mid 2020. Just happens nobody except the test subjects was "eligible".

I'm not saying it's the governments fault there is no vaccine for kids.
I am saying that the government is not telling the truth when they say all Canadians will be vaccinated.


----------



## james4beach

Fantastic ... J&J approved, 10 million doses coming

Great news


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Fantastic ... J&J approved, 10 million doses coming
> 
> Great news


303M (+10M of JNJ) vaccine that Trudeau "secured" are coming....no one has idea when


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> 303M (+10M of JNJ) vaccine that Trudeau "secured" are coming....no one has idea when


This is just Pfizer.










By the end of the second quarter, Canada is on track to receive 36.5 million doses and by the end of the third quarter, 117.9 million, which will include the now-approved Johnson & Johnson vaccine.


----------



## milhouse

Got a chuckle out of this in the National Post today.


----------



## Eder

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says the federal government will keep its spending focus on emergency aid and won't talk about hiking long-term health-care funding until after the COVID-19 pandemic is over. 

In other news Trudeau's program to send every Canadian a free postcard is going well.


----------



## gibor365

Meantime Israel reached milestone, 100 vaccine administrated per 100 people! Amazing!


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> Meantime Israel reached milestone, 100 vaccine administrated per 100 people! Amazing!


I think this belongs on the Israeli Money Forum.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> I think this belongs on the Israeli Money Forum.


Then all james's posts about "nasty Republicans" should belong to American Money Forum LOL


----------



## agent99

gibor365 said:


> Meantime Israel reached milestone, 100 vaccine administrated per 100 people! Amazing!


Just 100? Long way to go before they vaccinate the whole population


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Meantime Israel reached milestone, 100 vaccine administrated per 100 people! Amazing!


Is it mandatory in Israel? How else does one achieve 100% vaccination?


----------



## gibor365

No, it's not ma


andrewf said:


> Is it mandatory in Israel? How else does one achieve 100% vaccination?


No, it's not mandatory...and they generally don't vaccinate kids below grade 10 (except specific cases and as per Israeli data _No serious side effects were registered among dozens of children under the age of 16 who suffer specific COVID-19 risk factors and whom Israel has vaccinated against the coronavirus). _They have more than 100 vaccine administrated per 100 people, but don't forget that usually 2 vaccines are required.
Thus, at least 1 vaccine got 58% of population, and 44% of population is fully vaccinated. 
Israeli population in ages 0–14 years: 28.0%... so, about 35% (adding 15-18 y.o) are not eligible to get vaccine , if you add people who just don't want to be vaccinated, Israel in several day will administer at least 1 vaccine to everyone who wants it. And they are on track to finish full vaccination at the end of March, as Bibi promised. 
Still, Israel leading the World at daily vaccination rate. Yesterday they vaccinated 1.04 vaccine doses per 100 people and it's 700% higher than in Ontario with ONLY 0.15 vaccine doses.
Ontario vaccinated just 21K yesterday even though got plenty of vaccines as was reported....truly miserable rollout.
And Canada as a whole on stable 57th place in the World by vaccination rate.... Ontario is my lower ...


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> No, it's not ma
> 
> No, it's not mandatory...and they generally don't vaccinate kids below grade 10 (except specific cases and as per Israeli data _No serious side effects were registered among dozens of children under the age of 16 who suffer specific COVID-19 risk factors and whom Israel has vaccinated against the coronavirus). _They have more than 100 vaccine administrated per 100 people, but don't forget that usually 2 vaccines are required.
> Thus, at least 1 vaccine got 58% of population, and 44% of population is fully vaccinated.
> Israeli population in ages 0–14 years: 28.0%... so, about 35% (adding 15-18 y.o) are not eligible to get vaccine , if you add people who just don't want to be vaccinated, Israel in several day will administer at least 1 vaccine to everyone who wants it. And they are on track to finish full vaccination at the end of March, as Bibi promised.
> Still, Israel leading the World at daily vaccination rate. Yesterday they vaccinated 1.04 vaccine doses per 100 people and it's 700% higher than in Ontario with ONLY 0.15 vaccine doses.
> Ontario vaccinated just 21K yesterday even though got plenty of vaccines as was reported....truly miserable rollout.
> And Canada as a whole on stable 57th place in the World by vaccination rate.... Ontario is my lower ...


Still a supply issue in Ontario. Almost 85% of doses Have been injected.
expect to receive about 400k in Ontario this week.


----------



## like_to_retire

gibor365 said:


> Ontario vaccinated just 21K yesterday even though got plenty of vaccines as was reported....truly miserable rollout.
> And Canada as a whole on stable 57th place in the World by vaccination rate.... Ontario is my lower ...


The tracker says 30192 shots administered for yesterday and 21882 so far today, but either way, it's not going to get 11 million people vaccinated very quickly for sure.

Lots of people will pipe in with the standard response of, "just wait, they're getting ramped up". OK, I'm still waiting, because at 30,000 shots a day, it would take 366 days to vaccinate with a single shot, so I guess two years for both shots. They've got a ways to go. Will more vaccine vials make it go that much faster?










ltr


----------



## Money172375

like_to_retire said:


> The tracker says 30192 shots administered for yesterday and 21882 so far today, but either way, it's not going to get 11 million people vaccinated very quickly for sure.
> 
> Lots of people will pipe in with the standard response of, "just wait, they're getting ramped up". OK, I'm still waiting, because at 30,000 shots a day, it would take 366 days to vaccinate with a single shot, so I guess two years for both shots. They've got a ways to go. Will more vaccine vials make it go that much faster?
> 
> View attachment 21408
> 
> 
> ltr


I’m certainly no expert, but the current 30k approx in Ontario is limited by supply. I’ve seen statements where they claim to be able to do 100-160k per day, if the supply is available.

here are the expected shipments for Pfizer, Moderna, and Az.
Everyone in charge is claiming first shot will be done well before Sept. a few provinces have said June.

j&j will be a huge difference maker with its ease of storage and single shot. Vaccines are working. no LTC deaths in Ontario last 3 days.


----------



## Money172375

The following Ontario hotspots will also receive close to an additional 1 million doses over previous estimates.


Durham Region Health Department
Halton Region Public Health
City of Hamilton Public Health Services
Niagara Region Public Health
Ottawa Public Health
Peel Public Health
Simcoe-Muskoka District Health Unit
Region of Waterloo Public Health and Emergency Services
Wellington-Dufferin Guelph Public Health
Windsor-Essex County Health Unit
York Region Public Health
Toronto Public Health
Southwestern Public Health

one question I haven’t seen answered......can you region hop to get a vaccine?
ex. live in Toronto, get a shot in Hamilton?


----------



## Money172375

Money172375 said:


> I’m certainly no expert, but the current 30k approx in Ontario is limited by supply. I’ve seen statements where they claim to be able to do 100-160k per day, if the supply is available.
> 
> here are the expected shipments for Pfizer, Moderna, and Az.
> Everyone in charge is claiming first shot will be done well before Sept. a few provinces have said June.
> 
> j&j will be a huge difference maker with its ease of storage and single shot. Vaccines are working. no LTC deaths in Ontario last 3 days.
> 
> View attachment 21409
> View attachment 21410
> View attachment 21411


So by 3rd week of March, you’re starting to receive some big shipments. Approx 2 million that week for the country. So about 800,000 will come to Ontario. Which should mean close to 100,000 per day.


----------



## like_to_retire

Money172375 said:


> I’ve seen statements where they claim to be able to do 100-160k per day, if the supply is available.


Let's hope their claims are realized. I am only going by past performance.

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

I also heard someone on the news talking about vaccinating 24 hrs a day. Might not have been for Canada but I suppose it is an option for anyone. I doubt too many 20 year olds are going to get up at 3:30am to get a shot but quite a few of the more vulnerable people might.


----------



## Money172375

They‘re piloting pharmacy delivery soon. While they can apparently only do 46 shots a day (which seems super low)....there are 3,200 pharmacies with vaccine experience, and 4,600 total pharmacies. Even at 3,000 pharmacies and 46 shots each per day..that’s 138,000 shots a day.









COVID-19 vaccine pilot at some Ontario pharmacies to begin next week with Oxford-AstraZeneca | Globalnews.ca


The Ontario Pharmacists Association says the vaccination pilot will begin with approximately 380 pharmacies in Toronto, Kingston and Windsor-Essex health units.




globalnews.ca


----------



## gibor365

like_to_retire said:


> The tracker says 30192 shots administered for yesterday and 21882 so far today, but either way, it's not going to get 11 million people vaccinated very quickly for sure.


They give the number in the morning for previous day , this is why I wrote "yesterday" 21K...


> Let's hope their claims are realized. I am only going by past performance.


 Exactly!



> I also heard someone on the news talking about vaccinating 24 hrs a day. Might not have been for Canada but I suppose it is an option for anyone.


 Why not?! MRI is also practically works 24/7. I'd drive my mom to get vaccine any time of the day


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> They‘re piloting pharmacy delivery soon. While they can apparently only do 46 shots a day (which seems super low)....there are 3,200 pharmacies with vaccine experience, and 4,600 total pharmacies. Even at 3,000 pharmacies and 46 shots each per day..that’s 138,000 shots a day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccine pilot at some Ontario pharmacies to begin next week with Oxford-AstraZeneca | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The Ontario Pharmacists Association says the vaccination pilot will begin with approximately 380 pharmacies in Toronto, Kingston and Windsor-Essex health units.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


It's only in 3 health units Toronto, Kingston and Windsor-Essex ... Why not in 2nd hottest spot - Peel region? Last week I was talking with manager of our Pharmacy (he is doing flu, hepatitis shots etc), he told me that he'd like to administer Covid vaccines too, but have no idea is he gonna get some.


> 46 shots a day


 This is really a joke! Developed countries have drive-through vaccination centers !


----------



## Money172375

Interesting read here.....Yugoslavia once vaccinated 18 million people in 3 weeks....among others...









Why Covid-19 Vaccine Rollout Falls Short of Past Global Campaigns


Decades-old successes benefited from more trust in science, less political polarization, less complicated procedures




www.wsj.com


----------



## andrewf

I know the big pharmacy chains are getting ready to play a role in vaccine distribution. It is up to the government to involve them.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> j&j will be a huge difference maker with its ease of storage and single shot. Vaccines are working. no LTC deaths in Ontario last 3 days.


That's great news. Deaths in LTC have also stopped in BC (last I looked).

Do you now where we can find statistics on the # of elderly people who die soon after vaccination? Norway had some concerns about very old people having adverse reactions to the shot, and dying.

Unfortunately it's hard to evaluate this because among people over 80, there are significant # of deaths that occur all the time.

My concern is that it's difficult to know if they are among the people who would die anyway, or if the vaccine is really causing some deaths.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> That's great news. Deaths in LTC have also stopped in BC (last I looked).
> 
> Do you now where we can find statistics on the # of elderly people who die soon after vaccination? Norway had some concerns about very old people having adverse reactions to the shot, and dying.
> 
> Unfortunately it's hard to evaluate this because among people over 80, there are significant # of deaths that occur all the time.
> 
> My concern is that it's difficult to know if they are among the people who would die anyway, or if the vaccine is really causing some deaths.


I've read Bloomberg reports about LTC deaths in Norway after vaccine ... they indicated that many deaths were among terminally il seniors who anyway was going to die in matter weeks or months... just don't get why to vaccinate terminally ill seniors


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> I've read Bloomberg reports about LTC deaths in Norway after vaccine ... they indicated that many deaths were among terminally il seniors who anyway was going to die in matter weeks or months... just don't get why to vaccinate terminally ill seniors


Ok. That would make sense. And you're right, I found this article describing this ... they were vaccinating some very seriously ill patients.

There was another (rumoured) story about something similar in Switzerland









Coronavirus: Switzerland denies rumors of COVID vaccine causing death | DW | 30.12.2020


A 91-year-old nursing home resident reportedly died in Switzerland five days after receiving the vaccine. Authorities said the patient was already ill and a link with the vaccine was "highly unlikely."




www.dw.com





According to DW, which is a reliable German source, the Swiss medical authorities said the death is not believed to be linked to the Pfizer shot.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Ok. That would make sense. And you're right, I found this article describing this ... they were vaccinating some very seriously ill patients.
> 
> There was another (rumoured) story about something similar in Switzerland
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus: Switzerland denies rumors of COVID vaccine causing death | DW | 30.12.2020
> 
> 
> A 91-year-old nursing home resident reportedly died in Switzerland five days after receiving the vaccine. Authorities said the patient was already ill and a link with the vaccine was "highly unlikely."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dw.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to DW, which is a reliable German source, the Swiss medical authorities said the death is not believed to be linked to the Pfizer shot.


I find this "fake news" about people dying from vaccine ridiculous!
I can say that many of my relatives in Israel, who are 75+ and even 80+, got PFE vaccine in january and feeling very well.. just today was congratulating my 80 y.o. aunt with March 8th Woman holiday


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> I find this "fake news" about people dying from vaccine ridiculous!
> I can say that many of my relatives in Israel, who are 75+ and even 80+, got PFE vaccine in january and feeling very well.. just today was congratulating my 80 y.o. aunt with March 8th Woman holiday


That's great to hear gibor, thanks for sharing that. Glad to hear they are feeling well.


----------



## gibor365

I'm curious to know what are exact rules about staying 3 days in special hotel after returning to Canada from abroad.
If somebody gets AstraZeneca vaccine this week (or was lucky to get mRNA vaccine) and month afer is going to some Caribbean resort.... should this person still stay 3 days in special hotel after returning to Canada ?
If yes, then the only reasons would be to punish travellers ....


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> I'm curious to know what are exact rules about staying 3 days in special hotel after returning to Canada from abroad.
> If somebody gets AstraZeneca vaccine this week (or was lucky to get mRNA vaccine) and month afer is going to some Caribbean resort.... should this person still stay 3 days in special hotel after returning to Canada ?
> If yes, then the only reasons would be to punish travellers ....


Yes, under current rules. You can still carry and spread the virus after you have the vaccine.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Yes, under current rules. You can still carry and spread the virus after you have the vaccine.


But then it will be forever.....even after everyone who wants gets vaccine.!

I also couldn't find when this "rule" is going to end.

It would be interesting to know outcome of first court trail for people who didn't go to 3 days hotel isolation !


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> But then it will be forever.....even after everyone who wants gets vaccine.!
> 
> I also couldn't find when this "rule" is going to end.


 ... could be forever for those common-sense-lacking-vaccinated folks.

But for anyone with "real" common sense, tells me that the rules will end when the infection rate goes down and down, and more down to an acceptable level (or best to be at "zero") with our ICU units cleared out of Covid cases.



> It would be interesting to know outcome of first court trail for people who didn't go to 3 days hotel isolation !


 ...what court trial? Didn't hear about that ... I thought those travellers were willing to pay the $700 + tax fine, skirting that hotel quarantine.

Update: here's your answer on the "court trials". Advocacy groups are battling for legit-travellers. But for non-legit travellers who violate the quarantine rules for "non-essential business", sounds fair to me that they be fined $3K per day, subject to a (max) of 6 months of jail time and $750K in fines, especially when we're already 1 year plus into the pandemic.

Advocacy group asks Ontario court to halt federal hotel-quarantine policy


----------



## gibor365

How much down and down? What is acceptable level? Obviously that it never going to be "zero" and ICU would never be cleared simply because 20% of Canadians just don't want any vaccine + children are not going to be vaccinated.

"those travellers" are getting tickets and they have options to pay or go to court. and I bet many will select 2nd option


----------



## gibor365

Finally!








Legal challenge launched against mandatory hotel stay for travellers


The Canadian Constitution Foundation said the legal challenge included five individual applicants who have just returned from travelling or imminently need to travel




torontosun.com


----------



## gibor365

Very nice! Hopefully this unconstitutional "rule" will be cancelled


> The CCF is challenging the quarantine hotel policy on the grounds that it is a violation of the Charter protected right to enter Canada (s. 6), the Charter protected right to liberty (s. 7), the Charter protected right to be free from arbitrary detention (s. 9), and the Charter protected right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment (s. 12). The CCF is seeking an urgent injunction, a declaration that the quarantine requirement is unconstitutional, and monetary damages in the amount of the estimated hotel costs.


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> How much down and down? What is acceptable level?


 ... then this is gonna to confirm your disappointing suspicion that it may take "forever".

Let me put it this way, unless "everyone, meaning you, me, him/her" do their part in the fight (or how about simple "cooperation?") to get those numbers down instead of "oh, the rules are there to punish travellers or inconveniencing the me,myself & I-mentality", we're not going any where sooner or the rules/lockdowns disappearing. You do realize that this kind of infection starts with just 1 infected person. 



> Obviously that it never going to be "zero" and ICU would never be cleared simply because 20% of Canadians just don't want any vaccine + children are not going to be vaccinated.


 ... it could ... look at SARS and there was no vaccine even.



> "those travellers" are getting tickets and they have options to pay or go to court. and I bet many will select 2nd option


 .. it's their right to go and fight it in court. I would be more sympathetic to those travellers who had legitimate reason (eg. compassionate leave, unavoidable) for being out of country other than those in need of a March break.


----------



## Eder

Yep, the world has changed forever...and not in a good way.

Canada has shown how fleeting common freedom's can be.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> Canada has shown how fleeting common freedom's can be.


What are you talking about?


----------



## sags

If travelers had voluntarily quarantined, the government rules wouldn't have been necessary.

Travelers have only themselves to blame.


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> Very nice! Hopefully this unconstitutional "rule" will be cancelled


I agree, the hotel rule is kind of silly.

They just need to step up the penalties. 

I think a min $50,000 *and* 1 month jail time for breaking quarantine is reasonable ... to start.


----------



## Eder

Canada pre-ordered 10 million doses of the J&J vaccine, which is the first and only one in Canada's vaccine plan that requires only one dose.

But Trudeau said Canada still doesn't have a target date for the first deliveries.

So there's that optimism down the toilet.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> Canada pre-ordered 10 million doses of the J&J vaccine, which is the first and only one in Canada's vaccine plan that requires only one dose.
> 
> But Trudeau said Canada still doesn't have a target date for the first deliveries.
> 
> So there's that optimism down the toilet.


They said that JNJ vaccines won't arrive until at least late April, if ever


----------



## gibor365

> ... it could ... look at SARS and there was no vaccine even.


SARS disappeared by itself after exactly 6 months, nobody can explain why this happened. Covid is much higher "quality" Chinese invention 
btw, even though SARS was more severe, we didn't have no lockdowns, no counting deaths on daily basis, no travel bans and other idiotic measures


> unless "everyone, meaning you, me, him/her" do their part in the fight (or how about simple "cooperation?")


 it's your choice if you want to comply with this madness, many, include top officials are thinking otherwise.

All lockdowns and restrictions should be removed! Everyone who is scared can sit at home and wear 2 masks. The most vulnerable seniors who is scared should have free food delivery (it will be millions time cheaper that current ridiculous measures).


----------



## Money172375

cainvest said:


> I agree, the hotel rule is kind of silly.
> 
> They just need to step up the penalties.
> 
> I think a min $50,000 *and* 1 month jail time for breaking quarantine is reasonable ... to start.


Seems fines aren’t working. I’m okay with the 3 day quarantine....they can take it up with the judge after the fact.









Hefty fines were supposed to help enforce COVID-19 rules in Ontario. But almost a year into the pandemic few have been paid


A Star analysis shows that only 18 per cent of all COVID-19 charges laid in the province have been dealt with.




www.thestar.com


----------



## cainvest

Money172375 said:


> Seems fines aren’t working. I’m okay with the 3 day quarantine....they can take it up with the judge after the fact.


I'm sure they'll help but they need to step up the penalty. Someone gambling on a $1000 fine is quite different than doing so on a $50K fine plus manditory jail time.


----------



## Money172375

4th straight day with no LTC deaths in Ontario. 8 weeks after LTC vaccines, mortality is down 96%. Science!









FUREY: Ontario's LTC virus mortality has dropped 96%, Science Table report reveals


Eight weeks after vaccinations began, infections were reduced by 89% among long-term care residents and by 79% among workers.




torontosun.com


----------



## andrewf

cainvest said:


> I agree, the hotel rule is kind of silly.
> 
> They just need to step up the penalties.
> 
> I think a min $50,000 *and* 1 month jail time for breaking quarantine is reasonable ... to start.


In practice, this would just lead to lax enforcement. Australia and NZ have proven that quarantine hotels can work.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> SARS disappeared by itself after exactly 6 months, nobody can explain why this happened. Covid is much higher "quality" Chinese invention
> btw, even though SARS was more severe, we didn't have no lockdowns, no counting deaths on daily basis, no travel bans and other idiotic measures
> it's your choice if you want to comply with this madness, many, include top officials are thinking otherwise.
> 
> All lockdowns and restrictions should be removed! Everyone who is scared can sit at home and wear 2 masks. The most vulnerable seniors who is scared should have free food delivery (it will be millions time cheaper that current ridiculous measures).


SARS was contained and eradicated. It was not as infectious and you tended to be infectious only when quite sick (no asymptomatic spread). It was much deadlier if you caught it, but the real danger is in infectiousness and particularly asymptomatic infectiousness.

I don't even understand your point here. SARS didn't kill millions of people, unlike COVID 19. If you're trying to say we should have just let things go and wait 6 months for it to disappear like papa Trump promised, why isn't it gone yet?

Gibor, if you don't like it, you hold other passports. Feel free to go.


----------



## Eder

Money172375 said:


> Seems fines aren’t working. I’m okay with the 3 day quarantine....they can take it up with the judge after the fact.


Alberta ahead of the curve as usual.


_"Those dismissed charges included fines of $1,200 and involved people attending protests in Calgary and Edmonton and those ticketed for not wearing masks in stores, he said.
It’s clear prosecutors considered the likelihood of a guilty verdict to be low, reflecting the charges’ frivolous and even *unconstitutional nature*, said Cameron."_









More COVID-19 restriction violation charges being dropped, say lawyers


'The Alberta Crown Prosecution Service does not commence/continue prosecutions unless the evidence establishes a reasonable likelihood of conviction,' said…




calgarysun.com


----------



## sags

If the ACPS didn't consider the charges to be prosecutable, why did the police make arrests ?


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> If the ACPS didn't consider the charges to be prosecutable, why did the police make arrests ?


Because police guy is doing what he was told to do


----------



## gibor365

Some developed countries like Israel instead of 3 days "refuge camp" quarantine to punish people offers electronic bracelets, but probably Canada is too "poor" to implement it...



> Gibor, if you don't like it, you hold other passports. Feel free to go.


Why would I? We paid and paying enough taxes to this country.... Hopefully this unconstitutional rile will be dismissed very soon.
End lockdown, let us live!


----------



## gibor365

Luckily we have people in Canada for whom freedom and rights mean something!








Federal mandatory hotel quarantine policy faces legal challenge from constitutional rights group


The Canadian Constitution Foundation argues in its legal application that hotel quarantine requirements are 'overbroad, arbitrary and grossly disproportionate'




nationalpost.com


----------



## Eder

It seems my old group of Canadian snowbirds I used to hang out with all got the Pfizer vaccine today in La Penita, Mexico....ages 58-68. 

I'm pretty speechless. What the hell is wrong with our country?


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> It seems my old group of Canadian snowbirds I used to hang out with all got the Pfizer vaccine today in La Penita, Mexico....ages 58-68.


This is why my mom and MIL are angry! All their friends and relatives (include kids and grandkids) in Israel got vaccines, their relatives in Russia got vaccines.... but here is complete mess



> I'm pretty speechless. What the hell is wrong with our country?


*Canada is not a country*









Canada is not a country. - Macleans.ca


Scott Gilmore: If our rag tag federation can’t build pipelines, move beer or find some common bonds, we may have a fatal problem




www.macleans.ca


----------



## kcowan

Well we are here for essential travel, and we got our first Pfizer jab three weeks ago.

I think most sentient people know exactly what is wrong with Canada at this time.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Look people. Everyone in the world wants vaccine. We don't make it. We can only ask for it. Now think about this:

*If you were in charge of vaccine distributions at any of these drug companies* and you had to send LESS vaccine then every country in the world is begging for, what would you end up doing?

You would probably send a little to everywhere, but you would eventually start emphasizing deliveries with either a *bias towards your own country (patriotism)* or a *bias towards where it is needed the most in the world (ethical).*

In either of those two reasons listed above, where do you think Canada stands in the list of prioritized countries. Pretty darn close to the bottom...and there is absolutely nothing we can do about that. We can call Pfizer and listen to excuses all day long, and I am sure we are doing that, to absolutely no avail. Considering that, I think Canada is doing as good as can be expected. Just my lonely opinion of course.


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> SARS disappeared by itself after exactly 6 months, nobody can explain why this happened.


Actually it's pretty well known how and why SARS died out.
Little asymptomatic spread, high quarantine compliance, less contagious.


----------



## Money172375

Costco and Rexall are taking appointments in Ontario for 60-64 year olds.



https://www.rexall.ca/covid-19/ontario-vaccine







__





Costco Pharmacy - Launch







t.co


----------



## Eclectic12

OptsyEagle said:


> ... We can call Pfizer and listen to excuses all day long, and I am sure we are doing that, to absolutely no avail. Considering that, I think Canada is doing as good as can be expected.
> 
> Just my lonely opinion of course.


I guess there are only a few of us that see it this way.

I'm all for figuring it out and working towards improving it ... but unlike some of the other actions taken, this is a spot that I don't see any incentives to make the vaccine makers change the shipment destination.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12

kcowan said:


> Well we are here for essential travel, and we got our first Pfizer jab three weeks ago.
> 
> I think most sentient people know exactly what is wrong with Canada at this time.


Canadian citizens aren't lucrative non-residents that are being given priority?

It is not like Mexico is saying that have enough of the vaccine as seen by complaints about "rich countries are hoarding" the vaccine and "no foreigners will be vaccinated" sign.


Cheers


----------



## gibor365

> *bias towards your own country (patriotism)* or a *bias towards where it is needed the most in the world (ethical).*
> 
> In either of those two reasons listed above, where do you think Canada stands in the list of prioritized countries.


I don't agree... From your 2nd reason, Africa should be full of vaccine, however, only Russia giving their Sputnik V to some African potential friends. More obvious reasons to give it to countries from political perspective and financial one (who pays more, gets more). This is why China and Russia (who send except Africa, to Mexico, S. America, EU member Hungary etc) send their vaccines to countries to earn political capital.
Even Israel , who doesn't produce vaccine, are sending leftovers to their Central America friends (Honduras and Guatemala) who moved embassies to Jerusalem.
Also if you see countries who are leading by vaccination rate (Israel, UAE, Serbia etc), they are also don't stand too high "in the list of prioritized countries"


----------



## OptsyEagle

I did not say they would send all their vaccine to the most afflicted countries. I said that they would certainly NOT send extra vaccine to a country that is doing very well with the pandemic. They would send that extra to the countries they feel need it the most. If they experience any production issues they will direct the resulting reductions of deliveries to those same countries that are holding up better from a pandemic response.

Most people would do this. You may think we are special and I may think we are special but we should all know that no one else in the world thinks we are special. That is my point and the person in charge of acquiring vaccine, for Canada, has to deal with this reality no matter how much we want to deny its existence.


----------



## Retired Peasant

Money172375 said:


> Costco and Rexall are taking appointments in *3 health units in *Ontario for 60-64 year olds.


fify


----------



## sags

Canada gave $6 billion in foreign aid. 

Israel collects foreign aid.......mostly from US.


----------



## Money172375

Retired Peasant said:


> fify


AstraZeneca doses will also be delivered to primary care settings, including physician offices, in Hamilton, Peel Region, Simcoe-Muskoka, Peterborough, Guelph


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Canada gave $6 billion in foreign aid.
> 
> Israel collects foreign aid.......mostly from US.


Liberals are waiting taxpayers money to get political PR and we don't need such government.. btw, exactly same amount, 6B per year (in current $$$ it's much more) , USSR was giving to Cuba (for similar political reasons).
btw, Israel does provide foreign aid 
_Since the inception of its foreign aid programs, the Israel Foreign Ministry reports that as of 2020, Israel has provided international humanitarian aid to over 140 countries or territories, including states with no diplomatic relations with Israel 





Israeli foreign aid







en.wikipedia.org




_


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> AstraZeneca doses will also be delivered to primary care settings, including physician offices, in Hamilton, Peel Region, Simcoe-Muskoka, Peterborough, Guelph


Fake news! Just 15 min ago I was talking with manager of our pharmacy in Mississauga, who said that AZ vaccines aren't distributed in Peel, only in Toronto


----------



## gibor365

OptsyEagle said:


> Most people would do this. You may think we are special and I may think we are special but we should all know that no one else in the world thinks we are special. That is my point and the person in charge of acquiring vaccine, for Canada, has to deal with this reality no matter how much we want to deny its existence.


You are talking about "special"?! Do you think Israel is special ?! LOL (with so many anti-Semitics people and governments ) .
Everything is driven by money and political interests... Israel (and many other countries, look at Serbia, Chili, Romania etc) were able to do good negotiation with vaccine producers, Trudeau failed.


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> Fake news! Just 15 min ago I was talking with manager of our pharmacy in Mississauga, who said that AZ vaccines aren't distributed in Peel, only in Toronto


Family physicians, not pharmacies. Physicians will call patients directly. No appointments yet.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Family physicians, not pharmacies. Physicians will call patients directly. No appointments yet.


Do you really believe it?!


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> Do you really believe it?!


Yes


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> Do you really believe it?!


if your family are 60-64, book an appointment in Toronto


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Yes


blessed is he who believes LOL


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> if your family are 60-64, book an appointment in Toronto


How Peel residents can book "an appointment in Toronto"?!


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> blessed is he who believes LOL


Toda raba


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> How Peel residents can book "an appointment in Toronto"?!


Nothing I’ve read says anything about residency.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Toda raba


Walla LOL


----------



## andrewf




----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Yes











Social media is feeding the anti-vaccination movement | BrandeisNOW


Disinformation about vaccines is on the rise on social media and leading to decreases in vaccination rates over time, according to a new study co-authored by Brandeis politics professor Steven Wilson. Now, he’s calling on countries like the U.S. to step up the fight against bogus health-related...



www.brandeis.edu





Quite relevant. I think disinformation from foreign adversaries could take the form of encouraging cynicism towards public health and towards vaccination programs.



> Research shows U.S. adversaries like Russia are pedaling fake health propaganda on sites like Twitter and Facebook.
> 
> *Disinformation about vaccines is on the rise on social media* and leading to decreases in vaccination rates over time, according to a new study co-authored by Brandeis politics professor Steven Wilson. Now, he’s calling on countries like the U.S. to step up the fight against bogus health-related propaganda showing up online.


----------



## kcowan

Eder said:


> It seems my old group of Canadian snowbirds I used to hang out with all got the Pfizer vaccine today in La Penita, Mexico....ages 58-68.
> 
> I'm pretty speechless. What the hell is wrong with our country?





Eclectic12 said:


> Canadian citizens aren't lucrative non-residents that are being given priority?
> 
> It is not like Mexico is saying that have enough of the vaccine as seen by complaints about "rich countries are hoarding" the vaccine and "no foreigners will be vaccinated" sign.


Mexico was late to the game because their President is a would-be Trumper. But they ordered from every supplier. China and Russia are major suppliers. It seems that the main difference seems to be their better ability to negotiate. In our vax, it was 90+% Mexican.

But they provided a hurdle by lineups and no appointments online. So this favoured the keen recipients. Even the middle class were shut out because their usual hired placeholders wanted the vax themselves.


----------



## gibor365

> Research shows U.S. adversaries like Russia are pedaling fake health propaganda on sites like Twitter and Facebook.
> 
> *Disinformation about vaccines is on the rise on social media* and leading to decreases in vaccination rates over time, according to a new study co-authored by Brandeis politics professor Steven Wilson. Now, he’s calling on countries like the U.S. to step up the fight against bogus health-related propaganda showing up online.


It looks like anti-Russian propaganda again . I'm pretty active on "sites like Twitter and Facebook" and communicate a lot with Russians...I've never read any *Disinformation about vaccines! Actually more Disinformation about vaccines on Canadian/US media.*
Israeli government was pretty smart as first 2 vaccines in the country got Bibi (PM) and Minister of health Yuli Edelstein (btw, Russian Jew) that was shown live on TV... Also, Bibi had numerous talks with ultra-orthodoxic and Arab leaders convincing them to influence their pp; to have vaccine.


----------



## gibor365

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1369398781956001792


----------



## sags

IDF arrested children for picking flowers ?


----------



## Beaver101

With continuous posts like #822 and #823, either this thread's title needs to be changed or this forum's title ...


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> IDF arrested children for picking flowers ?


It's not what happened and it's not related to vaccines


----------



## Money172375

Updated vaccine schedule....


----------



## james4beach

Starting in a couple weeks, Pfizer will be delivering 1 million doses a week.


----------



## kcowan

Did you hear that those vaccinated with Pfizer do not carry the Covid ability to infect others? This means that you could go mask less after your incubation period with the second shot.

This could be a game-changer...


----------



## OptsyEagle

kcowan said:


> Did you hear that those vaccinated with Pfizer do not carry the Covid ability to infect others? This means that you could go mask less after your incubation period with the second shot.
> 
> This could be a game-changer...


I have been saying that since December but if someone has now proven it, that might help people accept it a little better. 

I believe the CDC has already issued the opinion you have stated, where properly vaccinated people can gather indoors without masks.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I should add, with the above statement, that there was never any doubt in my mind that vaccinated people can gather safely indoors without masks. The next questions to answer:

1) Can a vaccinated person gather safely indoors with unvaccinated people
2) Can an unvaccinated person gather safely indoors with vaccinated people

I don't know if anyone has proven this but my answer is yes, that will be 99.999% safe for both groups, with very few exceptions, mostly to be seen in group 2. If they are worried about this, I have a suggestion for them, that will solve their problem for good.


----------



## Beaver101

kcowan said:


> Did you hear that those vaccinated with Pfizer do not carry the Covid ability to infect others? This means that you could go mask less after your incubation period with the second shot.
> 
> This could be a game-changer...


 ... source, please.



OptsyEagle said:


> I have been saying that since December but if someone has now proven it, that might help people accept it a little better.
> 
> *I believe the CDC has already issued the opinion you have stated, *where properly vaccinated people can gather indoors without masks.


 ... CDC issued statement ... hmmmm... where's Pfizer's statement? 

And is that a guarantee (by CDC at this point) that you will not get (re)-infected after taking the Pfizer's (full-dosage) vaccine?


----------



## cainvest

kcowan said:


> Did you hear that those vaccinated with Pfizer do not carry the Covid ability to infect others? This means that you could go mask less after your incubation period with the second shot.
> 
> This could be a game-changer...


Even if true (good news BTW) I can't see them making regulations for "vaccinated only" people for masks and/or gatherings. While it could happen I'll bet they'll just continue to go by the overall numbers until more people get vaccinated.


----------



## OptsyEagle

> ... CDC issued statement ... hmmmm... where's Pfizer's statement?
> 
> And is that a guarantee (by CDC at this point) that you will not get (re)-infected after taking the Pfizer's (full-dosage) vaccine?


I am pretty sure the CDC does not want people to be severely ill or die, so I am not sure it matters much. Pfizer is only going to issue statements based on their own evidence, whereas the CDC is going to look at a much wider list of observations.

In any event, no one will be giving anyone a guarantee and we already know a vaccinated person can be infected, by the fact that 6 people in the Pfizer study were. My point here is that the 6 people that were infected, were not harmed. Hence, they were safe.


----------



## sags

Nobody knows nothing for sure.

Get a vaccination, wear a mask, avoid other people and crowds..........hope it goes away.


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> Even if true (good news BTW) I can't see them making regulations for "vaccinated only" people for masks and/or gatherings. While it could happen I'll bet they'll just continue to go by the overall numbers until more people get vaccinated.


In this case we'll need "green passports"








Israel’s “green pass” is an early vision of how we leave lockdown


There are plans all over the world for apps and cards that would prove vaccination. But Israel’s experience suggests major caveats.




www.technologyreview.com













EU to propose ‘digital green pass’ as proof a person has been vaccinated - National | Globalnews.ca


"The aim is to gradually enable them to move safely in the European Union or abroad, for work or tourism," the European Commission said.




globalnews.ca





However, our dictator doesn't want it _"The idea of certificates of vaccination for domestic use does bring in questions of equity. There are questions of fairness and justice. There could be discrimination," Trudeau said in French. _


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> In this case we'll need "green passports"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel’s “green pass” is an early vision of how we leave lockdown
> 
> 
> There are plans all over the world for apps and cards that would prove vaccination. But Israel’s experience suggests major caveats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.technologyreview.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EU to propose ‘digital green pass’ as proof a person has been vaccinated - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> "The aim is to gradually enable them to move safely in the European Union or abroad, for work or tourism," the European Commission said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, our dictator doesn't want it _"The idea of certificates of vaccination for domestic use does bring in questions of equity. There are questions of fairness and justice. There could be discrimination," Trudeau said in French. _


He's right ... covid passports are pretty silly for domestic travel.


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> He's right ... covid passports are pretty silly for domestic travel.


imho, it's very useful for attending sport events, museums, concerts, bars etc.
sure, it would be better completely lift all restrictions and return to normal life


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> imho, it's very useful for attending sport events, museums, concerts, bars etc.
> sure, it would be better completely lift all restrictions and return to normal life


So you think adding a bunch more government paperwork is a good idea when this whole pandemic thing is almost over?


----------



## sags

It would only be useful if there was certainty that vaccinations mean people can't get infected and can't spread the disease.

I don't think the drug manufacturers or scientists are making such claims yet, so a vaccine card would be meaningless until there is certainty.

There are also the variants, which seem less affected by the vaccines.


----------



## Eder

I'd like the use of Covid passports on things like domestic flights. It's nice to use airlines that require a clean Covid test before boarding...should extend the requirements to producing a clean a flu and cold test as well.


----------



## sags

Perhaps a better concept is a treatment such as Dr Fauci has talked about.

Once infected, take a pill and it kills the virus. That would be the holy grail.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> Perhaps a better concept is a treatment such as Dr Fauci has talked about.
> 
> Once infected, take a pill and it kills the virus. That would be the holy grail.


We should just invent a magic wand.

I don't think its realistic to expect a pill to render an infection harmless. We have been improving the standard of care for COVID, but there are no silver bullets. Vaccination is our best course of action.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Perhaps a better concept is a treatment such as Dr Fauci has talked about.
> 
> Once infected, take a pill and it kills the virus. That would be the holy grail.


Well I think we should just use the Star Trek biological filters to "clean" people. That would be great too.


----------



## kcowan

https://www.axios.com/pfizer-vaccine-asymptomatic-infection-7ac7de09-527f-4f76-803b-b55460aac1ab.html said:


> Pfizer prevents reinfection


Early info being downplayed to prevent vax switching


----------



## OptsyEagle

kcowan said:


> Early info being downplayed to prevent vax switching


As I theorized upthread, it won't be 100% but insignificant all the same when compared to unvaccinated people. The other vaccines will work almost identical in magnitude. Once you understand how this virus stuff works, and what is required to get infected and to infect others, there really was no other way for it to have gone. Only the actual number was impossible to know...until now.

We still don't know if the 6% of the vaccinated people with these asymptomatic infections can transmit them to others. In theory if a person can produce a positive PCR test then they might be able to transmit it to others. Since a PCR test is probably able to show positive with less virus then it takes to transmit an infective dose to someone else, my estimate is almost none of them will be infectious and the ones that are will not be for very long and in either case none will not be transmitting overly dangerous infections.

Will be interesting to find out the actual answer.

Thanks for the link.


----------



## sags

andrewf said:


> We should just invent a magic wand.
> 
> I don't think its realistic to expect a pill to render an infection harmless. We have been improving the standard of care for COVID, but there are no silver bullets. Vaccination is our best course of action.


The drugs are already developed. The problem is they require intravenous injection. Fauci said they are already reformulating the medicine into a vaccine type of injection. The next step after that is pill form. It will happen......just a matter of when.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> The drugs are already developed. The problem is they require intravenous injection. Fauci said they are already reformulating the medicine into a vaccine type of injection. The next step after that is pill form. It will happen......just a matter of when.


There is no drug that 'cures' COVID infection. We can only mitigate symptoms and reduce duration of infection.


----------



## gibor365

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1370902728487149572
So if 2nd vaccine postponed to July 2 for 82 y.o. senior, I'm afraid to ask when we gonna get vaccines


----------



## andrewf

Honestly, I think we should be giving both doses to those over 60 before vaccinating non-risk <35 year olds.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Honestly, I think we should be giving both doses to those over 60 before vaccinating non-risk <35 year olds.


Absolutely!

Maybe from PR perspective it's nice to say that by certain date everyone got vaccine (one). but it's wrong!


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> Honestly, I think we should be giving both doses to those over 60 before vaccinating non-risk <35 year olds.


Really depends on the data ... if one shot is good enough to keep those from getting really sick (or worse) then the plan sounds reasonable.


----------



## sags

Nobody is touting a cure, but there are drugs that have proven effective but are not widely used due to the delivery method of IV injections, which normally requires hospitalization.

Musclular Injections or pill form can be accomplished with some re-formulations.

A wide variety of antibiotics for bacteria are already available in both intravenous and pill form.

Fauci believes they will accomplish the same with the new anti-viral drugs.

_For example, the FDA has issued EUAs for several *monoclonal antibody treatments* for COVID-19 for the treatment of mild or moderate COVID-19 in adults and pediatric patients (ages 12 and older weighing at least 40 kilograms, about 88 pounds) with positive results of direct SARS-CoV-2 viral testing, and who are at high risk for progressing to severe COVID-19 and/or hospitalization. _









FDA has approved two drugs and authorized others for emergency use


Patients today have more treatment options in the battle against coronavirus disease.




www.fda.gov


----------



## gibor365

Should vaccinated people across Canada get certain freedoms? Here’s what health experts say | Globalnews.ca


"I think it's the reasonable and (the) right thing to do," said Nathan Stall, a geriatrician at Sinai Health Toronto.




globalnews.ca


----------



## OptsyEagle

gibor365 said:


> Should vaccinated people across Canada get certain freedoms? Here’s what health experts say | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> "I think it's the reasonable and (the) right thing to do," said Nathan Stall, a geriatrician at Sinai Health Toronto.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


The thing here is that in my opinion, since Canada is behind most developed countries with respect to vaccination, it makes a lot of sense to postpone these decisions until our vaccination numbers are much higher. In the mean time it gives us the ability to observe the results of other countries that are ahead of us in vaccination. Let them be the guinea pigs. 

Right now it would do little good to implement freedoms for vaccinated people so instead of confusing people with contradictory advice that changes later, they are simply waiting to see how it goes with other countries.

The idea that Canada will worry about being fair between what a vaccinated and unvaccinated person can do is kind of over worried in my opinion. They are waiting because they can. I would as well, even though I have little fear that vaccinated people are going to have any health problems being around each other and even being close to unvaccinated people. The 2nd group a tad more dangerous then the first, but not by enough to stay away from them...unless they are sweating a lot and coughing at the dinner table, but you should always stay away from those people. That will never change.


----------



## Beaver101

I wonder if certain people who chooses NOT to be vaccinated (for whatever reason) will get the same freedoms?


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> I wonder if certain people who chooses NOT to be vaccinated (for whatever reason) will get the same freedoms?


I think that's actually one of the things.
There is a serious problem if the police can arbitrarily stop you and demand "your papers".

In Ontario there was a big deal with "carding", ie police stopping and demanding ID's from people for no reason. Vaccine passports, would just be another vector.

What you don't want to show ID to any government official who asks, well can't have that.
Vaccine passports almost seem designed to freak out and anger those who don't want an authoritarian government tracking your every move.


----------



## Money172375

I think some sort of vaccine passport will come to fruition for international travel (I’m sure it exists in some areas already). An interim step in opening borders will likely see vaccination as a required step to enter a country.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Most of this will simply come from "recommendations", more then rules. They may implement rules surrounding travel, etc., but will always give both groups a way to participate that does not force any to vaccinate, in my opinion. That said, they will give new recommendations to both groups on what is now considered safe and what is still dangerous.

How we feel about those recommendations will all move forward in time. If your neighbor owned a barking Rottweiler, I suspect you would be a little hesitant at first to get close to it, especially if it was barking angrily at you all the time. If the first time you approached it the dog changed from barking to licking your hand immediately and you noticed it loved being petted on the head, etc., your fear of this same animal would quickly diminish.

Covid-19 fears will move in the identical direction. We just need to get some experience behind us on how well these vaccines are going to change a barking virus, showing its teeth, into a harmless virus. It will come in time, and I doubt very much time at that...especially when all the other countries get the opportunity to pet their dogs first.


----------



## cheech10

Don't expect any pills to cure COVID any time soon. Really the only viral infections we have effective oral treatments for are HIV and Hepatitis C, both of which took decades to develop, and HIV is only suppressed, not cured. Hep C can be cured in some cases.

For COVID treatments we have:
remdesivir - interferes with viral RNA replication. Basically like oseltamivir (tamiflu), very small effect size.
monoclonal antibody treatments - very small effect size, have to be given IV (digestion destroys antibodies)
steroids - suppress our immune response. Better outcomes, but not a cure
tocilizumab, sarilumab - prevent signalling by IL-6, suppressing the immune response. Better outcomes, not a cure, and they're monoclonal antibodies, so have to be given IV

That's about it. Just about everything else has been proven not to work, or is being studied (but unlikely to work based on the evidence so far). And even the ones we have don't work very well.


----------



## like_to_retire

Germany suspends AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine amid clotting concerns.

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> Germany suspends AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine amid clotting concerns.
> 
> ltr


Personally, I would like to see our Federal government on the phone with these countries right now asking if they would like us to take that vaccine, that must have an expiry date to it, off their hands for them. The window for this is probably going to close very soon.

I have no doubt a lack of vaccine has a much higher rate of risk then the very few blood clots that they have seen from this stuff...even if it was the result of the vaccine...but of course no one knows, except probably Astra Zeneca and they will always be perceived as biased.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Personally, I would like to see our Federal government on the phone with these countries right now asking if they would like us to take that vaccine, that must have an expiry date to it, off their hands for them. The window for this is probably going to close very soon.
> 
> I have no doubt a lack of vaccine has a much higher rate of risk then the very few blood clots that they have seen from this stuff...even if it was the result of the vaccine...but of course no one knows, except probably Astra Zeneca and they will always be perceived as biased.


BMJ published a paper on this on March 11.

The blot clot fatality rate of those who took the vaccine was lower than the blood clot fatality rate of the general population.

I agree that we should aggressively investigate, but really this is IMO an overreaction.
I would personally take this vaccine today if I could.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> I think that's actually one of the things.
> There is a serious problem if the police can arbitrarily stop you and demand "your papers".
> 
> In Ontario there was a big deal with "carding", ie police stopping and demanding ID's from people for no reason. Vaccine passports, would just be another vector.
> 
> What you don't want to show ID to any government official who asks, well can't have that.
> Vaccine passports almost seem designed to freak out and anger those who don't want an authoritarian government tracking your every move.


There is nothing to do with police. Vaccine passport is mostly for venues like sport events, concerts etc.
You may enter if you show your ticket and vac doc. Not many complaining when you are (and your bags) being searched while entering such event


----------



## gibor365

OptsyEagle said:


> The thing here is that in my opinion, since Canada is behind most developed countries with respect to vaccination, it makes a lot of sense to postpone these decisions until our vaccination numbers are much higher. In the mean time it gives us the ability to observe the results of other countries that are ahead of us in vaccination. Let them be the guinea pigs.
> 
> Right now it would do little good to implement freedoms for vaccinated people so instead of confusing people with contradictory advice that changes later, they are simply waiting to see how it goes with other countries.
> 
> The idea that Canada will worry about being fair between what a vaccinated and unvaccinated person can do is kind of over worried in my opinion. They are waiting because they can. I would as well, even though I have little fear that vaccinated people are going to have any health problems being around each other and even being close to unvaccinated people. The 2nd group a tad more dangerous then the first, but not by enough to stay away from them...unless they are sweating a lot and coughing at the dinner table, but you should always stay away from those people. That will never change.


Don't think so .... Canada has so enormous bureaucratic system that we're always late... Discussion and decision what to do should be ASAP


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> There is nothing to do with police. Vaccine passport is mostly for venues like sport events, concerts etc.
> You may enter if you show your ticket and vac doc. Not many complaining when you are (and your bags) being searched while entering such event


Since they haven't passed legislation or provided proposed regulation, that is just speculation.

I have no doubt that someone will take advantage of the situation.


----------



## gibor365

Beaver101 said:


> I wonder if certain people who chooses NOT to be vaccinated (for whatever reason) will get the same freedoms?


No, people who chooses NOT to be vaccinated won't have same freedoms, as we don't have our freedoms right now even comparing to any other Ontario and Canada regions


----------



## Beaver101

^ You do realize (as in reality) that the vaccine is "voluntary" so what are you restricted from in the first place with the "_we don't have our freedoms right now even comparing to any other Ontario and Canada regions_"? Are Mississaugians that special compared to the rest of the country?


----------



## gibor365

Beaver101 said:


> ^ You do realize (as in reality) that the vaccine is "voluntary" so what are you restricted from in the first place with the "_we don't have our freedoms right now even comparing to any other Ontario and Canada regions_"? Are Mississaugians that special compared to the rest of the country?


Obviously ! We in grey area and have lockdown together with Toronto and this is restricts our freedoms...Attend venues is also "voluntary"...
Kids cannot attend schools in Ontario if they don't have 7-8 shots...but vaccinate your kids is also voluntary


----------



## Money172375

Looks like Canada will allow AZ to be used in 65+. Gonna create hesitancy given a lot of Europe is pausing its use.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/astrazeneca-vaccine-canada-covid-19-1.5950580


----------



## Money172375

We’re going from “I'm envious of the UK for immunizing so many millions of people with the AZ vaccine! Why is Health Canada taking so long to approve the AZ vaccine!?! I want it right now! It must be safe because it is already being used in the UK” to...

”why are we using AZ in seniors.....it hasn’t been tested”.......to....”why are we using AZ at all! It’s unsafe!”


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Looks like Canada will allow AZ to be used in 65+. Gonna create hesitancy given a lot of Europe is pausing its use.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/astrazeneca-vaccine-canada-covid-19-1.5950580


Looks like Canada is having problem with everything ... The really developed countries, like Israel , don't use AZ at all.... 



> Why is Health Canada taking so long to approve the AZ vaccine


Looking at how is incompetent "our top doctor" T. Tam , imho, Health Canada just pretends to be doing something by waiting 1-2 weeks by approving vaccines that already been approved in developed countries


----------



## like_to_retire

So over a dozen European countries have banned the AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine and Canada's National Advisory Committee on Immunization (NACI) on March 1st said it is not recommending the use of AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine in individuals aged 65 years and older.

So, of course that's definitely the vaccine we want in Canada for seniors. I can hardly wait to get in line.

ltr


----------



## Synergy

like_to_retire said:


> So over a dozen European countries have banned the AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine and Canada's National Advisory Committee on Immunization (NACI) on March 1st said it is not recommending the use of AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine in individuals aged 65 years and older.
> 
> So, of course that's definitely the vaccine we want in Canada for seniors. I can hardly wait to get in line.
> 
> ltr


Just wait until tomorrow. They will be changing their tune again. Now it's ok for individuals over the age of 65. The NACI will be releasing a statement tomorrow.

Good luck to us all ;o)


----------



## OptsyEagle

And what would you have them do? What is the right data, that gives us the clear and correct answer to move us forward? Do any of you really think you have it?

I am not asking what you would like to see if all your dreams come true. I am asking everyone, that lives in this world, in this country, with all the current information and current vaccine supplies and deliveries, what would you do? Send all the AstraZeneca vaccine back, or should I say flush it down the toilet because it expires in about 2 weeks anyway? All because a few people got blood clots, when we knew in advance people get blood clots. That can be normal or not. We don't know in this case. Most of the relevant information says it is normal.

We know all the vaccines struggle with the South African variant? There is no sure winner. Some other vaccines may sound better but when you look closer at the issue, they are no different then AstraZeneca's? Would you rather meet the South African virus with or without vaccination? I know it wants to meet you.

These people in charge are doing their best. I really wish we could put an end to these complaints.


----------



## like_to_retire

When the authorities change their mind every day, they lose my trust.

If I'm in a room with 20 people and 15 of them leave because they say something is dangerous, I leave too. 

I'm not swayed by the argument that we should take something dangerous because it's about to expire.

ltr


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> And what would you have them do? What is the right data, that gives us the clear and correct answer to move us forward? Do any of you really think you have it?


I pretty sure they have an idea if it's statistically significant. I mean, first off ... compare AZ doses given to # of blood clots issues then compare those values against pfizer and moderna (and J&J if possible). 
It could be as simple as updating the screening for those getting AZ, _if_ there is a linked problem. 



OptsyEagle said:


> These people in charge are doing their best. I really wish we could put an end to these complaints.


But but ... some people love to complain, it's what some do best.
Remember when many were having issues with how fast the vaccines were created then it becomes, I want my vaccine now! lol.


----------



## Eder

The USA did 3.2 million vaccinations Saturday...


----------



## gibor365

After Israel fully vaccinated 50% of population and 60% got at least one vaccine (practically everyone who is eligible and wanted it), Chile is 1st in vaccination rate per capita ! Even though they have the longest in the World coastline 6,500km (many were telling that Israel is doing so well as they are small ), they administer 276,670 vaccine per day (with population a bit bigger than Ontario) and this is more than 600% higher than in Canada (even more comparing to Ontario). Rate per 100 ppl 1.46 vs 0.24!
So, the problem is not with big territory of Canada, but with inferior Canadian healthcare and governments


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> I pretty sure they have an idea if it's statistically significant. I mean, first off ... compare AZ doses given to # of blood clots issues then compare those values against pfizer and moderna (and J&J if possible).
> It could be as simple as updating the screening for those getting AZ, _if_ there is a linked problem.


They did that. AZ has already said that it was not anything outside of normal. Of course, they are perceived as a biased source.


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> When the authorities change their mind every day, they lose my trust.
> 
> If I'm in a room with 20 people and 15 of them leave because they say something is dangerous, I leave too.
> 
> I'm not swayed by the argument that we should take something dangerous because it's about to expire.
> 
> ltr


Are you willing to wait an extra 6 months for your vaccination, for example, because 15 people who know about as much as the people on this board, (which is less then nothing) walked out of a room?

I thought you were in a hurry to get vaccinated? Do you think dumping vaccine is going to help your timeline? This vaccine was trialed for 6 months and has been used for a few more by 10s of millions of people already.

When a couple people out of a few hundred million have heart attacks a few days after their Pfizer shots, do we dump that stuff as well. Better to be safe then sorry. Is that going to be the go to answer each and every time...with vaccine?

Has anyone noticed the current direction of the infection curves in this country lately? 
Dump vaccine? Really?


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> Are you willing to wait an extra 6 months for your vaccination,


Why should I have to wait 6 months - just give those over 65 the Moderna or Pfizer vaccine. These two vaccines have a higher efficacy of preventing symptomatic Covid infection, so they should be targeted at the most vulnerable. Just because the government screwed up in getting vaccines isn't occasion to put those most vulnerable in danger. It's a political move so they won't look bad, at my expense.

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> Why should I have to wait 6 months - just give those over 65 the Moderna or Pfizer vaccine. These two vaccines have a higher efficacy of preventing symptomatic Covid infection, so they should be targeted at the most vulnerable. Just because the government screwed up in getting vaccines isn't occasion to put those most vulnerable in danger. It's a political move so they won't look bad, at my expense.
> 
> ltr


Sorry I misunderstood. Your point was that it is OK for someone else to wait? Just give you the good stuff. Dump someone else's vaccine.

OK. We will be sure to take that unbiased advice under consideration. Thanks for the reply.


----------



## kcowan

I have had my first Pfizer jab, but, if not, I would not hesitate to have AZ because I am already on Eliquis.q


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> Sorry I misunderstood. Your point was that it is OK for someone else to wait? Just give you the good stuff. Dump someone else's vaccine.
> 
> OK. We will be sure to take that unbiased advice under consideration. Thanks for the reply.


We know that older adults are at greater risk of requiring hospitalization or dying if they are diagnosed with COVID-19. Are you saying this group, starting with oldest first shouldn't be given priority while the youngest have to wait? 

Targeting this older group with a higher efficacy vaccine was always the plan until the government made a mess of everything and now they are trying to get out of it by changing the rules of something that has never been tested and many doctors believe is a bad idea.. What the heck, lets just test it on the population, and especially the most vulnerable, then we'll know if we were right or not.

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> We know that older adults are at greater risk of requiring hospitalization or dying if they are diagnosed with COVID-19. Are you saying this group, starting with oldest first shouldn't be given priority while the youngest have to wait?
> 
> Targeting this older group with a higher efficacy vaccine was always the plan until the government made a mess of everything and now they are trying to get out of it by changing the rules of something that has never been tested and many doctors believe is a bad idea.. What the heck, lets just test it on the population, and especially the most vulnerable, then we'll know if we were right or not.
> 
> ltr


I am saying throwing away vaccine does not help any group.

You are relying too much on these efficacy numbers. They are all tainted to some degree by the human covid intervention, in the world they were trialed in. All we know for sure is that they are all very effective and they are all very safe.

I want to see everyone in the vulnerable group vaccinated. Something is better then nothing. We know that. We simply do not have enough of the "good stuff" to get everyone vaccinated before this next wave drops too many of them into the ground. That is what I am saying.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> They did that. AZ has already said that it was not anything outside of normal. Of course, they are perceived as a biased source.


I was referring to the real world administration side data, not the AZ tests.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> I was referring to the real world administration side data, not the AZ tests.


Sure, and they are doing that as we speak. These other countries did not dump their vaccine they just put it on hold. I imagine we will have their answer within a few days, maybe a week. In the mean time, we have all the trial data from Astra Zeneca. We know that something like 17 million people have already been given the AstraZeneca vaccine, many of them over age 65, and we know of about 2 blood clots, that I have heard of.

Our AZ vaccine supply expires on April 1st and we are in desperate need of vaccine...and the 3rd wave has begun. So I ask, knowing that, what should they do? Wait a week? Wait 2 weeks and expire out our AZ supply?

These are not easy decisions for our leaders, like they may be to people sitting in an armchair and looking at small pieces of this problem. There are a lot of moving parts to this question, all moving in a very fluid and information intensive world, while these leaders of ours are navigating a massive vaccination undertaking. 

An undertaking that is the ONLY SOLUTION to the mess we are in. We can never forget that.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Sure, and they are doing that as we speak. These other countries did not dump their vaccine they just put it on hold. I imagine we will have their answer within a few days, maybe a week. In the mean time, we have all the trial data from Astra Zeneca. We know that something like 17 million people have already been given the AstraZeneca vaccine, many of them over age 65, and we know of about 2 blood clots, that I have heard of.
> 
> Our AZ vaccine supply expires on April 1st and we are in desperate need of vaccine...and the 3rd wave has begun. So I ask, knowing that, what should they do? Wait a week? Wait 2 weeks and expire out our AZ supply?


Last I heard the blood issues have hit just under 40 people. It really shouldn't take long to compare against other vaccines. I read AZ is good for 6 months in the fridge ... why do you say 2 weeks?


----------



## sags

The latest I read is that this particular type of blood clot is very rare in the general population.

The incident rate in AZ vaccinated people is 4X higher than what would be expected.

One patient developed blood clots all over his body soon after the vaccine was administered.

That is not typically seen in the general population.

The stories are leading to public reluctance and lack of trust in the AZ vaccine.

It may be a solution is taking a low dose aspirin temporarily to prevent clotting.

We shall see what the investigations reveal.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The latest I read is that this particular type of blood clot is very rare in the general population.
> 
> The incident rate in AZ vaccinated people is 4X higher than what would be expected.
> 
> One patient developed blood clots all over his body soon after the vaccine was administered.
> 
> That is not typically seen in the general population.
> 
> There is so much information and a lot of money involved.......so there is a lot of concern.


Sags, please provide a link that this issue is 4x as common as would be expected, the BMJ article (from Mar 11) I posted claimed it is less common than in the general population.

Also an update from AZ





Update on the safety of COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca







www.astrazeneca.com






Sags, you appear to be spreading unsupported vaccine disinformation.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> I read AZ is good for 6 months in the fridge ... why do you say 2 weeks?


When the announcement was made that India was going to ship us 500,000 doses of the AZ vaccine we were told that this particular shipment had an expiry date of April 1st. I am sure it can be googled.


----------



## Spudd

Here's a link (I googled it) that mentions the expiry of April 1. 


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/astra-zeneca-arrives-tomorrow-1.5933603#:~:text=NACI%20has%20recommended%20that%20provinces,weeks%20for%20the%20AstraZeneca%20doses


.

And here's one saying it does not seem to cause clots. They mention the incidence of clots in vaccinated people was lower than in the general population, and that the European Medicines Agency agrees that they do not believe it causes clots.








AstraZeneca's COVID vaccine suspended in more countries over low number of blood clots


List of countries shelving the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is growing, but among 17 million people given the drug, fewer than 40 have developed blood clots.




www.cbsnews.com





(Personally, if taking the AZ vaccine means I get vaccinated, I'll take it!)


----------



## MrMatt

Spudd said:


> Here's a link (I googled it) that mentions the expiry of April 1.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/astra-zeneca-arrives-tomorrow-1.5933603#:~:text=NACI%20has%20recommended%20that%20provinces,weeks%20for%20the%20AstraZeneca%20doses
> 
> 
> .
> 
> And here's one saying it does not seem to cause clots. They mention the incidence of clots in vaccinated people was lower than in the general population, and that the European Medicines Agency agrees that they do not believe it causes clots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AstraZeneca's COVID vaccine suspended in more countries over low number of blood clots
> 
> 
> List of countries shelving the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is growing, but among 17 million people given the drug, fewer than 40 have developed blood clots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbsnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Personally, if taking the AZ vaccine means I get vaccinated, I'll take it!)


yeah, but anti-vaxxers like sags are out there, and they're pushing their message hard.

I really wish people and media were better able to report and understand these things, I really appreciate the high degree of transparency we have had with many aspects of COVID.


----------



## OptsyEagle

OK. 40 clots it is. 17 million vaccinations. What is that? 0.00023% chance you will get a blood clot. I bet the other vaccines would have a similar number. How could they not?


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> OK. 40 clots it is. 17 million vaccinations. What is that? 0.00023% chance you will get a blood clot. I bet the other vaccines would have a similar number. How could they not?


Well, as I linked to, this rate of blood clots is apparently LESS than you'd expect in the general population.

I think 2 in a million isn't too scary.
We should investigate, but people hyping this as a problem are just fearmongering, or don't understand stats/science.


----------



## sags

_A 60-year old Danish woman who died of a blood clot after receiving AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine had* “highly unusual” symptoms*, according to the Danish Medicines Agency.

*The woman had a low number of blood platelets and clots in small and large vessels, as well as bleeding, it said.*

A few similar cases were found in Norway and in the European Medicines Agency’s (EMA) database of drug side effects, Danish Medicines Agency said.

*“It was an unusual course of illness around the death that made the Danish Medicines Agency react,” it said in a statement late on Sunday.*_









Dane who died from blood clot after AstraZeneca shot had `unusual symptoms', agency says


A 60-year old Danish woman who died of a blood clot after receiving AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine had "highly unusual" symptoms, according to the Danish Medicines Agency.




www.reuters.com


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> When the announcement was made that India was going to ship us 500,000 doses of the AZ vaccine we were told that this particular shipment had an expiry date of April 1st. I am sure it can be googled.


I gather it was an old batch they are finally shipping ... seems kind of odd given the demand but ok.


----------



## sags

_“They have *very unusual symptoms: bleeding, blood clots and a low count of blood platelets,*” Steinar Madsen, Medical Director at the Norwegian Medicines Agency told broadcaster NRK. _









Three people in Norway treated for 'unusual symptoms' after AstraZeneca COVID-19 shots


OSLO — Three health workers in Norway who had recently received the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine are being treated in hospital for bleeding, blood clots and a…




torontosun.com


----------



## sags

It is the "highly unusual" symptoms of abnormal bleeding, blood clots and a low count of blood platelets that concerns me.

They are having abnormal bleeding and blood clotting at the same time.

That typically doesn't happen simultaneously in people who develop blood clots.

Anyone who is taking blood thinners or on a daily aspirin regime should rightfully be concerned about "abnormal bleeding" because of possible vaccine interactions with those drugs.

People should consult with their doctor on which vaccines are safe for them.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Anyway, the European Medical Agency says they will announce their results of their study on this issue on Thursday, so the guessing can probably wait until then.

Just so we all know, all vaccines showed some minor evidence of blood clotting in their trial participants. JNJ had something like 15 in the vaccinated group and 10 in the placebo group but all the health agencies said that the numbers were too small to derive any conclusive opinion that the vaccines caused the increase. Pfizer and Moderna also observed blood clotting.

Keep in mind that blood clotting was one of the symptoms of severe outcomes for Covid-19 patients in the ICU. Even if these vaccines expedite that condition or even cause it in some, I cannot see them cancelling a vaccine, that we desperately need because of 40 cases in 17 million...but I imagine the EMA will have a little more information to go on. Hopefully we will know on Thursday.

I will agree. The government picked a bad day to tell people over 65 that this vaccine has now become an option. I agree with the decision, just not the timing of it.


----------



## Retired Peasant

cainvest said:


> I gather it was an old batch they are finally shipping ... seems kind of odd given the demand but ok.


I think it's kinda like buying day-old bread. It's still good, but use it up quickly. Normally AZ can be stored for 6 months. Canada was willing to take it because we were eager to get any vaccine given delays in shipping others (Pfizer/Moderna)


----------



## sags

AZ and the regulators are using "real life" data to extrapolate the risk of the vaccine.

But, they didn't recommend giving the AZ to the senior population, so is the senior population included in the "real life" data ?

Did seniors receive the AZ in other countries ?


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> AZ and the regulators are using "real life" data to extrapolate the risk of the vaccine.
> 
> But, they didn't recommend giving the AZ to the senior population, so is the senior population included in the "real life" data ?
> 
> Did seniors receive the AZ in other countries ?


interesting, you failed to support your previous false claim, and are now peppering the thread with a series of news reports, and are asking leading "questions'.

You have shown this pattern in a number of threads. 

It is clear that you are a disinformation troll, with no interest in legitimate debate.

I don't know what your end game is, but I will not participate.

The final report is coming, complete data is published by reputable sources.


----------



## sags

_The Norwegian Medicines Agency has received several adverse reaction reports about *younger vaccinated people who have had skin hemorrhages (small-spotted skin hemorrhages and / or larger or smaller blue spots) after the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccination*. This is serious and can be a sign of decreased platelet count. 

Common to these patients is that they have had a reduced number of platelets in the blood. Blood clots and subsequent cerebral hemorrhage *are a rare condition. *_









Norway reports blood clots in young people with the AstraZeneca vaccine - Outbreak News Today


By NewsDesk @bactiman63 The Norwegian Medicines Agency has received several adverse reaction reports about younger vaccinated people who have had skin hemorrhages (small-spotted skin hemorrhages and / or larger or smaller blue spots) after the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccination. This is serious...




outbreaknewstoday.com


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> interesting, you failed to support your previous false claim, and are now peppering the thread with a series of news reports, and are asking leading "questions'.
> 
> You have shown this pattern in a number of threads.
> 
> It is clear that you are a disinformation troll, with no interest in legitimate debate.
> 
> I don't know what your end game is, but I will not participate.
> 
> The final report is coming, complete data is published by reputable sources.


I posted links to news articles and information.

You are posting nothing but your opinion.

A wide number of countries have reported instances of unusual affects from the vaccine

The US has not approved AZ until they finish the clinical trials.

I think Canada should also wait for the results, before they start administering the AZ vaccine.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I posted links to news articles and information.


yet you still refuse to support your false claim that the rate of clotting is 4x normal.


> You are posting nothing but your opinion.


The below link is not my opinion.






Update on the safety of COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca







www.astrazeneca.com





My "opinion" is you are a dishonest troll intent on spreading disinformation regarding vaccine safety.
you have made unsupported and objectively false statements.
You're even lying about what I said.


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> Last I heard the blood issues have hit just under 40 people. It really shouldn't take long to compare against other vaccines. I read AZ is good for 6 months in the fridge ... why do you say 2 weeks?


Because when Canada got AZ, they said that it gonna expire at the end of March.... probably Canada got vaccines that were stored somewhere in fridge for 5 months


----------



## gibor365

U.S. COVID-19 deaths fall 22% last week, daily vaccinations set record


The United States reported a 22% decline in deaths from COVID-19 last week, while vaccinations accelerated to a record 2.4 million shots per day, according to a Reuters analysis of state, county and CDC data.




www.reuters.com


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> yet you still refuse to support your false claim that the rate of clotting is 4x normal.
> 
> The below link is not my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Update on the safety of COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.astrazeneca.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My "opinion" is you are a dishonest troll intent on spreading disinformation regarding vaccine safety.
> you have made unsupported and objectively false statements.
> You're even lying about what I said.


A lot of disinformation spread regarding "deaths" from vaccines (inclide PFE and Moderma ones)








Over 900 Died After Receiving COVID-19 Vaccine; Is Data Misinterpreted?


The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System receives and analyzes reports of adverse reactions to vaccines.




www.ibtimes.com













Fact check: Reports of adverse effects in US database aren’t confirmed to be linked to vaccination


A video is being shared on social media that sees a presenter examining data from a US system that collects reports of adverse health events that follow the administration of a vaccine.




www.reuters.com


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> yet you still refuse to support your false claim that the rate of clotting is 4x normal.
> 
> The below link is not my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Update on the safety of COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.astrazeneca.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My "opinion" is you are a dishonest troll intent on spreading disinformation regarding vaccine safety.
> you have made unsupported and objectively false statements.
> You're even lying about what I said.


The information is easy enough to find. It is actually 5X - 6X higher than the expected rate.

Why European nations have suspended AstraZenca's coronavirus vaccinations ?

*The decisions are centered on the concerns of a rare type of brain clot*

_Germany’s health ministry said that *between 1 and 1.4 cases of these rare clots would be expected among the vaccinated group of people within a period of 14 days after getting a shot, so the seven cases is well above that, leading its authorities to conclude that this is more than “would be expected statistically.” Three of the seven people with the condition died,* it said.
Germany says the incidents have affected younger people too. (It was only recently that the vaccine was approved for people over 65 so most who have received shots so far have been groups such as medical workers and teachers.) Women appear to have been particularly affected, the health ministry said._



https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/03/16/europe-astrazeneca-suspended-faq/


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The information is easy enough to find. It is actually 5X higher than the expected rate.
> 
> _Germany’s health ministry said that *between 1 and 1.4 cases of these rare clots would be expected among the vaccinated group of people within a period of 14 days after getting a shot, so the seven cases is well above that, leading its authorities to conclude that this is more than “would be expected statistically.” Three of the seven people with the condition died,* it said.
> Germany says the incidents have affected younger people too. (It was only recently that the vaccine was approved for people over 65 so most who have received shots so far have been groups such as medical workers and teachers.) Women appear to have been particularly affected, the health ministry said._
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/03/16/europe-astrazeneca-suspended-faq/


Wow, only had to ask several times before you found a link, a link published several hours after your claim.
March 16, 2021 at 2:06 p.m. EDT

Interestingly your link says 
"European Medicines Agency says that thousands of people develop blood clots for various reasons and that overall numbers don’t seem to be a concern."

I'll withdraw my accusation that you were maliciously spreading disinformation. 
But I'll stick to my assertion that you tend not to support your claims.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> Wow, only had to ask several times before you found a link, a link published several hours after your claim.
> March 16, 2021 at 2:06 p.m. EDT


Yes,.....you caught me.

I can see into the future and knew the Washington Post was going to publish that article.


----------



## OptsyEagle

That's awesome. You da man Sags.  

I now know who to ask if I want to know what the weather will be like on the weekend. lol


----------



## Eder

The vaccines definitely are a game changer in the US...things are opening up more & more on a daily basis. 

Hawaii just had their busiest week for tourism since the start of Covid. All restaurants & bars open & back to normal. 

Big party nation wide being planned for July 4th as anyone who wants a vaccine will have had it by the end of May and be immune by the holiday.

Looks a lot like May 1st anyone that has had a vaccine can enter Hawaii without tests or quarantine.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Yes,.....you caught me.
> 
> I can see into the future and knew the Washington Post was going to publish that article.


You were asked multiple times to substantiate your claim, and you repeatedly refused to back up the claim.
It makes me think your original source was likely very sketchy or non-existent.

I'll point out my sources were BMJ & AZ themselves.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> The vaccines definitely are a game changer in the US...things are opening up more & more on a daily basis.
> 
> Hawaii just had their busiest week for tourism since the start of Covid. All restaurants & bars open & back to normal.
> 
> Big party nation wide being planned for July 4th as anyone who wants a vaccine will have had it by the end of May and be immune by the holiday.
> 
> Looks a lot like May 1st anyone that has had a vaccine can enter Hawaii without tests or quarantine.


No wonder as US vaccinate per 100 people 400% more than Canada


----------



## gibor365

Looks like 3rd wave is coming only in Canada.
In last 30 days , 7 days moving average of new cases:
In Canada increased by 19% (with lockdowns)
In US decreased by 38% (w/o lockdowns)
In UK decreased by 56% (with lockdowns)


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> Looks like 3rd wave is coming only in Canada.
> In last 30 days , 7 days moving average of new cases:
> In Canada increased by 19% (with lockdowns)
> In US decreased by 38% (w/o lockdowns)
> In UK decreased by 56% (with lockdowns)


history will not remember the 7 day averages in March 2021. They will remember the number of cases and number of dead.


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> Looks like 3rd wave is coming only in Canada.
> In last 30 days , 7 days moving average of new cases:
> In Canada increased by 19% (with lockdowns)
> In US decreased by 38% (w/o lockdowns)
> In UK decreased by 56% (with lockdowns)


Ya, the 3rd wave is only in Canada.









'Don't make the same mistakes', Fauci warns as Europe struggles to contain its third coronavirus wave | CNN







www.cnn.com













Third Covid wave 'inevitable' in autumn as virus is 'here to stay'


THE BRITISH public should expect a third Covid wave in the autumn, a top UK statistician has warned.




www.express.co.uk













The Real Cause Of America’s Third Wave Of Covid-19


America is in a third wave of Covid-19. Despite months of physical distancing, the epidemic of Covid-19 only appears to be revving up.




www.forbes.com


----------



## nortel'd

As a Canadian senior who has spent the last year hiding in my home, I don’t give a damn that AstraZeneca is considered safe. I want to be vaccinated with the most effective and it sure is not AstraZeneca. Covid-19 is not the FLU! The blood clot controversy over whether AstraZeneca is safe or not is a smoke screen.

Interesting quotes from this article.... 

A look at the difference between COVID-19 vaccine efficacy and effectiveness - National | Globalnews.ca

_The recently approved AstraZeneca vaccine, for example, showed a 62 and 72 per cent efficacy. This means that 62 per cent and 72 per cent of participants in a vaccinated group saw a reduction in cases in a comparison with the unvaccinated (or placebo) group during their respective trials.

This differs from the near 95 per cent effectiveness of mRNA vaccines such as Pfizer/BioNtech and Moderna. However, all four vaccines authorized for use in Canada — Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson — showed perfect data when it came to preventing death or hospitalizatio_n.

What the hello... the following quote is my game changer.....

_Using the AstraZeneca vaccine as an example, Dr. Matthew Miller, assistant dean at McMaster University’s department of biochemistry and biomedical sciences, noted it may be “modestly inferior” to mRNA vaccines in its ability to prevent people from getting any symptoms, “but it’s extraordinarily effective in making sure that even if they do get symptoms, that it’s just a mild illness.”_

Yes.... I get my yearly Flu vaccination knowing it may be as little as 20% effective against the active influenza stain. There is a very big difference between getting Covid-19 no matter the severity. A bout of Covid-19 has the possibility of leaving me with future health problems. 

I will wait for preferably a Pfizer/BioNtech shot for however long it will take. I am willing to pay for it if it comes to that!


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Looks like 3rd wave is coming only in Canada.
> In last 30 days , 7 days moving average of new cases:
> In Canada increased by 19% (with lockdowns)
> In US decreased by 38% (w/o lockdowns)
> In UK decreased by 56% (with lockdowns)











Coronavirus Update (Live): 123,042,823 Cases and 2,715,771 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer


Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...




www.worldometers.info




Canada 593 deaths per 1M population
USA 1654
UK 1854

Our waves are smaller, I'd like it to be over, but would you prefer to trade that 3rd wave for 3x the number of deaths?


----------



## MrMatt

nortel'd said:


> I will wait for preferably a Pfizer/BioNtech shot for however long it will take. I am willing to pay for it if it comes to that!


it's illegal to pay for health care in Canada.
The RCMP is even investigating people who are trying to import more vaccines.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/covid-vaccine-import-deal-first-nations-1.5948552


----------



## nortel'd

MrMatt said:


> it's illegal to pay for health care in Canada.
> The RCMP is even investigating people who are trying to import more vaccines.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/covid-vaccine-import-deal-first-nations-1.5948552


Once the majority of Canadians are vaccinated by one vaccine or the other, my thinking is Health Canada will offer them through a prescription medication similar to the SHINGRIX - Shingles vaccination. Several years ago, I had to pay for that.
Right now I am very confident my PPE is protecting me.


----------



## Tostig

I don't think Shingles is contageous. It's the Chickenpox virus that you always had.

Meanwhile, the flu is transmissible and can be deadly for those with weak immune systems. So, I think that the Covid-19 vaccinations will be publically covered for the annual variants.


----------



## OptsyEagle

nortel'd said:


> As a Canadian senior who has spent the last year hiding in my home, I don’t give a damn that AstraZeneca is considered safe. I want to be vaccinated with the most effective and it sure is not AstraZeneca. Covid-19 is not the FLU! The blood clot controversy over whether AstraZeneca is safe or not is a smoke screen.
> 
> Interesting quotes from this article....
> 
> A look at the difference between COVID-19 vaccine efficacy and effectiveness - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> _The recently approved AstraZeneca vaccine, for example, showed a 62 and 72 per cent efficacy. This means that 62 per cent and 72 per cent of participants in a vaccinated group saw a reduction in cases in a comparison with the unvaccinated (or placebo) group during their respective trials.
> 
> This differs from the near 95 per cent effectiveness of mRNA vaccines such as Pfizer/BioNtech and Moderna. However, all four vaccines authorized for use in Canada — Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson — showed perfect data when it came to preventing death or hospitalizatio_n.
> 
> What the hello... the following quote is my game changer.....
> 
> _Using the AstraZeneca vaccine as an example, Dr. Matthew Miller, assistant dean at McMaster University’s department of biochemistry and biomedical sciences, noted it may be “modestly inferior” to mRNA vaccines in its ability to prevent people from getting any symptoms, “but it’s extraordinarily effective in making sure that even if they do get symptoms, that it’s just a mild illness.”_
> 
> Yes.... I get my yearly Flu vaccination knowing it may be as little as 20% effective against the active influenza stain. There is a very big difference between getting Covid-19 no matter the severity. A bout of Covid-19 has the possibility of leaving me with future health problems.
> 
> I will wait for preferably a Pfizer/BioNtech shot for however long it will take. I am willing to pay for it if it comes to that!


You seem to be relating the fact that if one drug has an efficacy rating of 30% higher then another, then you are automatically assuming their effectiveness would also be of the same magnitude. That is incorrect. This statement from your linked article is what I have been trying to warn people about for a few weeks now.



> Efficacy refers to how well a drug, in this case, a vaccine, works under controlled circumstance such as a clinical trial. Effectiveness refers to how well that drug or vaccine works in the real world.


I have stated here and elsewhere many times that these "efficacy" numbers are not to be relied upon since they will inevitably get tainted by the human intervention we incorporated using covid safety precautions: masks, distancing, etc.  The example I give, is if a vaccine is working well, it could care less whether you wear a mask or stay 6 feet away from other people, but the unvaccinated people(placebo group) benefit greatly by these human interventions. Since those two numbers (vaccinated, Placebo) are the only inputs used to calculate efficacy, this human intervention affects the results significantly. Therefore, depending on when and where these trial groups were conducted, unless they all were in the exact same countries at exactly the same time, you cannot compare efficacies of one vaccine to the other.

I agree, that *human covid interventions should render the efficacy numbers lower then what their effectiveness will actually be in the real world, when all precautions are discarded.* So that is a positive from this analysis. Since I can't see Pfizer's or Moderna's data going much higher then the 95% they profess, I can't help but assume what you will see, when real world data starts coming in, is that Astrazeneca and Johnson and Johnson effectiveness is actually closer to 90%, then we think they are right now.

For example. You may recall the Astrazenca fiasco where they vaccinated the 1st group of individuals with the wrong dosage. They did this in late April, early May I believe. It put their trial back 7 weeks and therefore the one they are using for efficacy did not get started until June. They continued that 1st trial, that got started 7 weeks earlier, and it showed a 90% efficacy. By being delayed 7 weeks they ended up with a 62% efficacy number. Now many will say, and rightly so, that there is no proof that this difference came from the 7 week difference in the trial. I say, those were 7 very important weeks. The world was just coming to grips with precautions at that time. Masks were just being mandated slowly around the world. Summer was just starting. You see what I mean?

Don't rely too much on these efficacy numbers. They just tell you that it is effective. They don't actually tell you how effective. We will find that out as more real world data comes in. I know everyone will still use them, because they have nothing else, but it is worse then using past performance to pick a mutual fund. It will not be indicative of future performance.


----------



## cainvest

nortel'd said:


> _“but it’s extraordinarily effective in making sure that even if they do get symptoms, that it’s just a mild illness.”_


IMO the focus should be on the statement above with regards to vaccines. If all the vaccines show in real world results that serious illness (and potential long term complications) are basically gone (say less than 1%) then it's a total win despite the efficacy numbers from the trials.


----------



## andrewf

The waves aren't all synced up exactly in each country. Even within Canada, Alberta's second wave peaked a month before Ontario. So comparing 1 week changes in infection is not particularly helpful.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Ya, the 3rd wave is only in Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Real Cause Of America’s Third Wave Of Covid-19
> 
> 
> America is in a third wave of Covid-19. Despite months of physical distancing, the epidemic of Covid-19 only appears to be revving up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com


You published article from December 7 LOL.
In any case, the numbers I published show the trend and it's more reliable that media's hysteria


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> The waves aren't all synced up exactly in each country. Even within Canada, Alberta's second wave peaked a month before Ontario. So comparing 1 week changes in infection is not particularly helpful.


I didn't compare 1 week , but 7 days average for 1 month


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> it's illegal to pay for health care in Canada.
> The RCMP is even investigating people who are trying to import more vaccines.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/covid-vaccine-import-deal-first-nations-1.5948552


This is kinda grey territory ... You cannot pay and have MRI or import vaccine, but on the other hand private Medcan was doing antibody Covid test for month for $$$ as well as many diagnostics


----------



## Eder

nortel'd said:


> I will wait for preferably a Pfizer/BioNtech shot for however long it will take. I am willing to pay for it if it comes to that!


Just move to Alberta...you can pick your vaccine there. Or take a holiday to Puerto Vallarta...stay at Paradise Village all inclusive...the vaccine joint is a short walk from there. Get a poke then kill the pain with $3 margarita's under one of the palapa's.


----------



## Retired Peasant

cainvest said:


> IMO the focus should be on the statement above with regards to vaccines. If all the vaccines show in real world results that serious illness (and potential long term complications) are basically gone (say less than 1%) then it's a total win despite the efficacy numbers from the trials.


You're ignoring the long-term effects of even a mild illness for some. I wouldn't discount that so quickly - it's no picnic.


----------



## cainvest

cainvest said:


> IMO the focus should be on the statement above with regards to vaccines. If all the vaccines show in real world results that serious illness *(and potential long term complications)* are basically gone (say less than 1%) then it's a total win despite the efficacy numbers from the trials.





Retired Peasant said:


> You're ignoring the long-term effects of even a mild illness for some. I wouldn't discount that so quickly - it's no picnic.


Nope .. I bolded that part for you.


----------



## OptsyEagle

The bigger problem here is if everyone wants to wait until they get the "good stuff" then their health will be put more at risk because everyone is waiting, and therefore more people around them are unvaccinated. This risk will more then surpass the risk provided by any difference in vaccine efficacy, even if those numbers were accurate.

I would like to see the government come out and tell people that they will not be given a choice. If they decline the vaccine offered, they will go to the back of the line. The back of the line will be after the announcement that all who now want a vaccine are welcome. Probably happen around the end of this summer.

I am not trying to be an A-hole but this issue may very well become a problem and the pandemic favours everyone taking the 1st vaccine offered as quickly as it is offered. The individual person may believe they are favoured with a choice. So in the sake of the pandemic that choice needs to be either removed or clarified. If they want to give Pfizer / Moderna to age 65 and older then so be it. If they want to give the next one available to that group then what I suggest, or something like it, should be announced BEFORE people start deciding which one they might prefer.

Just my opinion, of course.


----------



## MrMatt

Retired Peasant said:


> You're ignoring the long-term effects of even a mild illness for some. I wouldn't discount that so quickly - it's no picnic.


Uhh "we" get colds all the time, we have the sniffles and feel bad for a few days. That's what most coronaviruses are, just the common cold. Go home, have some chicken noodle soup.

If the AZ vaccine manages to get COVID19 down to the impact of a more common and typical Coronavirus, I'm good with that.


----------



## sags

If a bunch of people get the AZ vaccine, that leaves more Pfizer vaccine for those who wait.

Patience has it's own rewards.


----------



## Money172375

Pfizer is shipping the most doses by a large factor. odds Are that you’ll receive Prizer. And Moderna to a lesser degree. We aren’t receiving many AZ yet.


----------



## Beaver101

Tostig said:


> *I don't think Shingles is contageous*. It's the Chickenpox virus that you always had.
> 
> Meanwhile, the flu is transmissible and can be deadly for those with weak immune systems. So, I think that the Covid-19 vaccinations will be publically covered for the annual variants.


 ... are you sure about that? Otherwise why was a shingles vaccine developed? Because it's contagious, just not in the manner as a flu or Covid. And you can pass on your shingles to someone who didn't get the chickenpox nor was vaccinated. 

To get infected with shingles ain't fun either (your skin blisters all over ... OTOH it might be a mutual feeling for those those who loves to suntan in Florida or some hotspot though) ... could be deadly for seniors (and immune-compromised) I heard.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> The bigger problem here is if everyone wants to wait until they get the "good stuff" then their health will be put more at risk because everyone is waiting, and therefore more people around them are unvaccinated. This risk will more then surpass the risk provided by any difference in vaccine efficacy, even if those numbers were accurate.
> 
> I would like to see the government come out and tell people that they will not be given a choice. If they decline the vaccine offered, they will go to the back of the line. The back of the line will be after the announcement that all who now want a vaccine are welcome. Probably happen around the end of this summer.
> 
> I am not trying to be an A-hole but this issue may very well become a problem and the pandemic favours everyone taking the 1st vaccine offered as quickly as it is offered. The individual person may believe they are favoured with a choice. So in the sake of the pandemic that choice needs to be either removed or clarified. If they want to give Pfizer / Moderna to age 65 and older then so be it. If they want to give the next one available to that group then what I suggest, or something like it, should be announced BEFORE people start deciding which one they might prefer.
> 
> Just my opinion, of course.


 ... no need for you to worry about public selectiveness of the vaccine. At this point (still), it seems like the governmental experts still haven't figured out its "Priority" list for the vaccine. Latest example:

Restaurant workers will not be included in Ontario's Phase 2 of vaccine rollout

What about other "public-facing" healthcare workers such as therapists, dentists, and the likes? Where are their spots?


----------



## gibor365

I personally have 2 issues with AZ:
1. It's made in India and I don't really trust this country (worked 5 years for Indian company). It's better than China , but still
2. if I get 1 AZ shot, and Canada suspend it like majority of European countries, what I gonna do with 2nd vaccine? Looks like Pfizer is the best, All Israel has been vaccinated with it and no any problems. JNJ is good too (only 1 shot), we we don;t get them


----------



## Money172375

Here you go Gibor.....since you said Canada takes too long to approve vaccines....have at it......they’re looking for a volunteers.









This Canadian-made COVID-19 vaccine has reached the final phase of human testing — and volunteers are needed


If you want to volunteer for a vaccine trial now may be your chance, as Quebec-based Medicago is one of the few companies that also plans to trial its...




www.thestar.com


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> I personally have 2 issues with AZ:
> 1. It's made in India and I don't really trust this country (worked 5 years for Indian company). It's better than China , but still
> 2. if I get 1 AZ shot, and Canada suspend it like majority of European countries, what I gonna do with 2nd vaccine? Looks like Pfizer is the best, All Israel has been vaccinated with it and no any problems. JNJ is good too (only 1 shot), we we don;t get them


Canada just re-affirmed it’s use for all adults.


----------



## cainvest

Money172375 said:


> Here you go Gibor.....since you said Canada takes too long to approve vaccines....have at it......they’re looking for a volunteers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Canadian-made COVID-19 vaccine has reached the final phase of human testing — and volunteers are needed
> 
> 
> If you want to volunteer for a vaccine trial now may be your chance, as Quebec-based Medicago is one of the few companies that also plans to trial its...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thestar.com


Hey it's made from plants ... a vaccine good for vegans and vegetarians!.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Here you go Gibor.....since you said Canada takes too long to approve vaccines....have at it......they’re looking for a volunteers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Canadian-made COVID-19 vaccine has reached the final phase of human testing — and volunteers are needed
> 
> 
> If you want to volunteer for a vaccine trial now may be your chance, as Quebec-based Medicago is one of the few companies that also plans to trial its...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thestar.com


No, thank you , I don't trust unknown Quebec company ....IMHO, Justin Trudeau should be vaccinated first with thos one LOL
P.S. I'm not in hurry to get vaccine after Trudeau lock down travellers for 3 days on return


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> Hey it's made from plants ... a vaccine good for vegans and vegetarians!.


Ha ha ! What a scam LOL


----------



## gibor365

Despite of today's Canadian vaccination record , Canada is still on 47th place in the World by vaccination rate per capita!
Even Mongolia administered almost twice vaccines comparing to us....
In total vaccination per capita Canada dropped to 62th place.


----------



## gibor365

I'm surprised about Chile ... the country with longest shoreline in the World , every day vaccinate close to 300,000 people!


----------



## OptsyEagle

A study from the British Medical Journal on the mortality (death) risk of the UK variant compared to the original covid-19 virus.

They compared 54,906 cases of the UK variant with 54,906 cases of the original variant and found that you will have a 64% increased risk of death if you are unlucky enough to catch this, more infectious virus.









Risk of mortality in patients infected with SARS-CoV-2 variant of concern 202012/1: matched cohort study


Objective To establish whether there is any change in mortality from infection with a new variant of SARS-CoV-2, designated a variant of concern (VOC-202012/1) in December 2020, compared with circulating SARS-CoV-2 variants. Design Matched cohort study. Setting Community based (pillar 2)...




www.bmj.com





I suspect that increased mortality is probably a function of the higher infective dose a person receives by maintaining the same time of exposure to a much more infectious virus. One could not prevent being infected with more of it, and when one gets a higher dose of infection they are going to have more difficulty fighting it off.

Anyway, all the vaccines will probably bring that increased death rate down to zero, where you actually want it, so keep that in mind. I believe the South African one is just a little nastier then the UK, so keep those masks on and stay safe until you are vaccinated. Both of those variants are already here.


----------



## OptsyEagle

So following along with the killer variant post above, we have a, way to young to die, person in Peterborough who died after being infected with one of these new variant viruses, currently going around everywhere.



> A Fleming College student who lived at the Severn Court student residence died Monday after being diagnosed with a COVID-19 variant. CTV News identified him Wednesday as Zachary Root, a 31-year-old accounting student.











Man dies after getting COVID-19 variant through Severn Court student residence outbreak


Fleming College student, identified by CTV as Zachary Root, had not even attended the Feb. 20 party.




www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com





So remember, the anti has been raised and we are all in. Good luck. Stay safe.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Very sad ... now the nonbelievers can party on and sleep well at night. Jackasses - effrs.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> I'm surprised about Chile ... the country with longest shoreline in the World , every day vaccinate close to 300,000 people!


Canada has waaaaay more shoreline than Chile.


----------



## Retired Peasant

cainvest said:


> Nope .. I bolded that part for you.


Actually I mistook your meaning to be long-term effects of serious illness. My apologies. Long-term effects on mild illness hasn't been proven to be <1%, though


----------



## Retired Peasant

MrMatt said:


> Uhh "we" get colds all the time, we have the sniffles and feel bad for a few days. That's what most coronaviruses are, just the common cold. Go home, have some chicken noodle soup.
> 
> If the AZ vaccine manages to get COVID19 down to the impact of a more common and typical Coronavirus, I'm good with that.


There have been plenty of stories in the news about long haulers (W5, fifth estate, global news, etc). These include cases that were mild - i.e. never even went to hospital. Covid19 is not a cold.


----------



## cainvest

Retired Peasant said:


> Actually I mistook your meaning to be long-term effects of serious illness. My apologies. Long-term effects on mild illness hasn't been proven to be <1%, though


No problem, I actually meant it as a separate statement. Having any long term effects no matter how ill one got isn't good so I hope the vaccines can decrease those "long hauler" counts.

On a side note ... I do wish we'd see more data from countries (or WHO) with regards to how the vaccines are working along with other stats on covid in general. Percentages of known side effects for each vaccine, vaccinated covid case counts (and severities), overall "repeat" covid cases, etc.

On the plus side, I do know a handful of people that have gotten the first shot of the AZ vaccine now, they're all doing well.


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> Canada has waaaaay more shoreline than Chile.


Oh my, don't let him know Canada is #1 at something it'll burst his bubble of living in a terrible country!


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> Coronavirus Update (Live): 123,042,823 Cases and 2,715,771 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada 593 deaths per 1M population
> USA 1654
> UK 1854
> 
> Our waves are smaller, I'd like it to be over, but would you prefer to trade that 3rd wave for 3x the number of deaths?


Covid "game" didn't end yet , so we probably gonna catch up, when Covid in US/UK will end, Canada gonna have 4th or maybe 5th wave . Add also casualties from hundreds thousands canceled surgeries and millions canceled cancer tests


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Canada has waaaaay more shoreline than Chile.


Chile has waaaaay more shoreline than Ontario and they vaccinate even more than 600% per capita than ON


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Chile has waaaaay more shoreline than Ontario and they vaccinate even more than 600% per capita than ON


That wasn't your claim.
You said Chile had the longest shoreline, now 6500km isn't short, but Cadan has over 200 000 km of shoreline, which is over 30x Chile. it's not even close.

FWIW Chilean wine is excellent.


----------



## Money172375

Cue the critics.......it’s expired! It’s causes clotting!









Deal with United States could send 1.5M doses of COVID-19 vaccine to Canada


The United States is working on a deal to lend doses of AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine to Canada and Mexico, White House press secretary Amy Psaki said Thursday.




www.thestar.com


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> That wasn't your claim.
> You said Chile had the longest shoreline, now 6500km isn't short, but Cadan has over 200 000 km of shoreline, which is over 30x Chile. it's not even close.
> 
> FWIW Chilean wine is excellent.


obviouslly I didn't mean Artic ocean shoreline where only polar bears live LOL
I meant the distance from Southernmost to Northernmost points , it's about the same as from Canadian Westernmost to Easternmost points...


----------



## OptsyEagle

OK, so for anyone that did not hear, the European Medical Agency completed their review of the AstraZeneca vaccine, as it related to blood clots, and said that there is no indication that the blood clots came from the vaccinations, nor of course, could they rule it out. That said, they indicated that its benefits outweigh its risks.

This is about what most of us have been saying, from the beginning, and Koodos for Canada, not stopping a very important program, due to what was obvious from the worst case evidence observed so far.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ema-astrazeneca-oxford-vaccine-safety-1.5954427



For anyone interested, I reviewed the Johnson and Johnson vaccine trial for blood clots. On page 46 under the heading of "Unsolicited Adverse Events of Clinical Interest" you will find the section on observed blood clots. They trialed 44,325 participants divided between the vaccination group and placebo. After their trial they observed 15 blood clots within the vaccinated group and 10 within the placebo group. They found these numbers to be too low to obtain any conclusion and well below the numbers to be expected for blood clots.



https://www.fda.gov/media/146217/download



Obviously 15 out of 20,000 is a much larger observation of blood clots, then 40 out of 17 million, like we saw with the AstraZeneca vaccine.

The other good news today, that might be related to this hiccup is the US has decided to send us 1.5 million doses of Astrazeneca vaccine. Let's hope some of those European nations do the same in some political maneuver to save face. I would love to help them out by taking the vaccine off their hands.


----------



## sags

Money172375 said:


> Cue the critics.......it’s expired! It’s causes clotting!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deal with United States could send 1.5M doses of COVID-19 vaccine to Canada
> 
> 
> The United States is working on a deal to lend doses of AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine to Canada and Mexico, White House press secretary Amy Psaki said Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thestar.com


I think Canada should pass on the AZ vaccine from the US. The scientists don't know what is causing the "unusual" problems.

"*The clinical picture is highly unusual* and is currently being thoroughly investigated by the European Medicines Agency," the agency said in a statement on Monday.

*Another death was reported in Norway on Monday, along with a handful of non-fatal cases with similar "unusual" adverse reactions*, the Norwegian Medicines Agency said. *The agency has received over 1,000 reports of side effects in recent days, which it said it is currently reviewing.*


----------



## sags

All those countries would not have suspended the AZ vaccine simply because of blood clots.

They are alarmed at the appearance of rare specific blood clots in the brain in combination with abnormal bleeding and abnormally low blood platelets.

That combination of symptoms isn't supposed to be medically possible.

You get blood clots because your platelets stick together. You get abnormal bleeding because they aren't sticking together. This is NOT seen in the general public.

The "authorities" are avoiding the question with a "you will be better off" bunch of BS.


----------



## Spudd

sags said:


> I think Canada should pass on the AZ vaccine from the US. The scientists don't know what is causing the "unusual" problems.


You go ahead and pass, I'll take it!


----------



## james4beach

It may make sense for health authorities to be cautious about AZ and vaccinate younger people with it. Perhaps the health care workers of younger ages, who need vaccinations anyway.


----------



## Money172375

I believe this new date is the first official announcement that it will be June, not September for every adult who wants it.









Canada on track to finish first round of COVID-19 vaccinations by June, Ottawa says


There should be enough COVID-19 vaccines available to give every Canadian who’s eligible a first dose by the end of June, says the country’s top vacci...




www.thestar.com


----------



## Retired Peasant

gibor365 said:


> Covid "game" didn't end yet , so we probably gonna catch up, when Covid in US/UK will end, Canada gonna have 4th or maybe 5th wave .


I'm at a loss to understand your smiley on this statement.


----------



## james4beach

Heads up to anyone in MB. Vaccination is moving faster than expected.

My parents & friends parents are looking at scheduling their vaccinations this week or next week (for a time slot X weeks in the future)

This is much faster than I anticipated. I might be able to visit my parents within a month or two, the way this is going.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Heads up to anyone in MB. Vaccination is moving faster than expected.
> 
> My parents & friends parents are looking at scheduling their vaccinations this week or next week (for a time slot X weeks in the future)
> 
> This is much faster than I anticipated. I might be able to visit my parents within a month or two, the way this is going.


They're doing about 1000-2500 per day in MB. Currently doing 71 and older.


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> obviouslly I didn't mean Artic ocean shoreline where only polar bears live LOL
> I meant the distance from Southernmost to Northernmost points , it's about the same as from Canadian Westernmost to Easternmost points...


Actually it wasn't at all obvious that you had some weird fact pattern that magically shrinks the Canadian shoreline by 97%.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> They're doing about 1000-2500 per day in MB. Currently doing 71 and older.


Have you heard anything about which brands of vaccines they are giving?


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Have you heard anything about which brands of vaccines they are giving?


People I know here (front line healthcare) got pfizer.
People I know in Alberta got AZ.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> obviouslly I didn't mean Artic ocean shoreline where only polar bears live LOL
> I meant the distance from Southernmost to Northernmost points , it's about the same as from Canadian Westernmost to Easternmost points...


Still, countries like Indonesia have more coastline. Maybe Chile has highest ratio of shoreline to land area, if that matters to you. Ontario has a lot of shoreline, between the great lakes and Hudson/James Bay. At any rate, I don't think much of Chile's coastline is inhabited either (deserts/mountains, etc.).


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> Actually it wasn't at all obvious that you had some weird fact pattern that magically shrinks the Canadian shoreline by 97%.


I mentioned shoreline as some here found excuse in Canada's extremely bad vaccine rollout because of the territory (like we don;t have planes distribute vaccines and use horses ).
In any case, Chile , Morocco, Serbia even Mongolia have impressive vaccine rollout rate comparing to our G7 country LOL


----------



## Money172375

On Global news they said, in spite of US vaccine success, they still have 50-55,000 new cases a day and 15 states are seeing upward trends. 
while a weight is lifted off your shoulders if you’re vaccinated, “normal” life is many, many months away....even after 20-30% vaccine rates.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> On Global news they said, in spite of US vaccine success, they still have 50-55,000 new cases a day and 15 states are seeing upward trends.
> while a weight is lifted off your shoulders if you’re vaccinated, “normal” life is many, many months away....even after 20-30% vaccine rates.


In Israel , more than 60% of population got at least 1 vaccine and more than 50% are fully vaccinated. Even though new cases are about 80% down from the peak, they still have around 1,500 per day


----------



## Eclectic12

gibor365 said:


> obviouslly I didn't mean Artic ocean shoreline where only polar bears live LOL ...





MrMatt said:


> Actually it wasn't at all obvious that you had some weird fact pattern that magically shrinks the Canadian shoreline by 97%.


It wasn't obvious to me either.

I'm also puzzled by why about 16K polar bears in the Canadian arctic means ignoring the 100K plus Canadians living there. 


Cheers


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> I mentioned shoreline as some here found excuse in Canada's extremely bad vaccine rollout because of the territory (like we don;t have planes distribute vaccines and use horses ).
> In any case, Chile , Morocco, Serbia even Mongolia have impressive vaccine rollout rate comparing to our G7 country LOL


Territory is a non issue.
The vast majority of the Canadian population is in a handful of large cities.

What is holding us back is the Federal governments ability to get the vaccine.

We had no trouble getting millions of flu shots out, during the pandemic.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> Territory is a non issue.


That what I meant! It was just stupid to tell that Israel is so successful in vaccination rate because it's a small country.
US is also big, Chile is very long, and they have daily vaccination rate several times higher than in Canada.

Trudeau always lies, so I'm very skeptical about his promise that every Canadian is going to get vaccine at the end of June. He is going to find another excuses


----------



## andrewf

Canada has top notch logistics systems. Delivering vaccines to Canadians isn't going to be the issue, we just need supply.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> I think Canada should pass on the AZ vaccine from the US. The scientists don't know what is causing the "unusual" problems.


Here is the problem with that Sags. I mentioned upthread that the JNJ vaccine saw 15 blood clots from the 20,000 trial participants that were vaccinated. Compared to the AZ vaccine where we have seen about 40 blood clots in 17 million vaccinated people, the JNJ showed a higher blood clot occurrence 326 times greater then Astrazeneca.

Now you also appear to be saying that they should shelf the vaccine because someone somewhere said that some of these blood clots look different then what is usual. That may be the case. No one knows, including yourself. One might say, if we don't know, then lets shelf the AZ for now and just use the others. I don't know what your views are on JNJ, but lets talk about the remaining two, Pfizer and Moderna. Remember the plan is to vaccinate EVERYONE on the planet. But, what you are saying is that once we see ANYONE showing ANYTHING that is UNUSUAL after vaccination, we should shelf that vaccine, as well, until further study.

Can you see how all this will eventually go? *Eventually we are going to be completely out of vaccines *because as soon as anyone in the world, has anything unexplained, we will need to shelf whatever vaccine they were given. There is no way any vaccine will escape that kind of scrutiny.

I will remind you again. Vaccination is our only way out of the mess. There is no plan B. Vaccine is it.


----------



## james4beach

The Phase III trial of AZ is still underway in the US. It's believed that the FDA could review and approve the Phase III results in April.

I will feel better about the AZ vaccine once the FDA approves it.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> Territory is a non issue.
> The vast majority of the Canadian population is in a handful of large cities.
> 
> What is holding us back is the Federal governments ability to get the vaccine.
> 
> We had no trouble getting millions of flu shots out, during the pandemic.


Actually we did. I never did get a flu shot because nobody had any.


----------



## sags

OptsyEagle said:


> Here is the problem with that Sags. I mentioned upthread that the JNJ vaccine saw 15 blood clots from the 20,000 trial participants that were vaccinated. Compared to the AZ vaccine where we have seen about 40 blood clots in 17 million vaccinated people, the JNJ showed a higher blood clot occurrence 326 times greater then Astrazeneca.
> 
> Now you also appear to be saying that they should shelf the vaccine because someone somewhere said that some of these blood clots look different then what is usual. That may be the case. No one knows, including yourself. One might say, if we don't know, then lets shelf the AZ for now and just use the others. I don't know what your views are on JNJ, but lets talk about the remaining two, Pfizer and Moderna. Remember the plan is to vaccinate EVERYONE on the planet. But, what you are saying is that once we see ANYONE showing ANYTHING that is UNUSUAL after vaccination, we should shelf that vaccine, as well, until further study.
> 
> Can you see how all this will eventually go? *Eventually we are going to be completely out of vaccines *because as soon as anyone in the world, has anything unexplained, we will need to shelf whatever vaccine they were given. There is no way any vaccine will escape that kind of scrutiny.
> 
> I will remind you again. Vaccination is our only way out of the mess. There is no plan B. Vaccine is it.


You are missing the point, as are the media and many people.

Once again...those countries DID NOT stop the vaccinations because of the routine kinds of blood clots they see all the time. Their medical experts know all about blood clots.

They stopped the vaccinations because they discoverd a 5 fold increase in very rare specific blood clotting of the brain WITH abnormal internal bleeding AND lowered bloot platelets soon after the vaccinations were delivered.

More cases have popped up and it has only been a couple of weeks. Who knows what symptoms people will develop over the next month or years.

I listened to the news tonight and the expert said despite any possible danger, getting the vaccination shot is far less dangerous than getting the COVID.

That doesn't matter to me, because I don't plan on getting the COVID either.

I have waited this long so another few months won't matter.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> You are missing the point, as are the media and many people.
> 
> Once again...those countries DID NOT stop the vaccinations because of routine kinds of blood clots they see all the time.
> 
> They stopped because of very rare blot clotting of the brain WITH abnormal internal bleeding AND lowered bloot platelets.
> 
> I listened to the news tonight and the expert said despite the danger, getting the shot is far less dangerous than COVID.
> 
> Frankly, I don't plan on getting the COVID either so the comparison is meaningless for me.


and most of those countries have resumed vaccination.

Sags. You are the one missing the point. The point is that the number of observations you are talking about are so small, compared to the number of people vaccinated, that even if the relationship you are talking about actually exists, we are still going to end up using these vaccines.

It would take months and months to determine the cause of these abnormalities, as you call them, and it WILL happen with all the vaccines. We can't wait months and months to beat to death all these issues. Why can you not see this? That is the point.

As for yourself. Don't get vaccinated. But trust me, the more people that do vaccinate the higher the chances are that you won't get infected. You need people to be vaccinated. Can you at least see that?


----------



## sags

The Serum Institute in India that makes the AZ vaccine has shut down and has to retest over a million vaccine shots for "stability". This is where the AZ vaccine in Canada comes from.

The manufacturers are being pushed to their limit by politicians.









Indian vaccine firm denies Hancock’s claim rollout being hampered by supply shortage


But Serum Institute of India insists there is ‘no question’ of any delays




www.independent.co.uk


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> I have waited this long so another few months won't matter.


I agree with you on this point sags, and waiting when in doubt is absolutely the right move. But it seems these other countries are resuming.

I was very concerned when Germany stopped the vaccinations. Germany is resuming giving AZ shots, tomorrow.

Sweden and Norway are still thinking about. sags I recommend watching Sweden & Norway to see what they do. And if you still aren't certain from this group of countries, wait for the FDA decision in April. It's probably only a few weeks away.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Actually we did. I never did get a flu shot because nobody had any.


We also never got flu vaccine and I don't anybody who did


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> The Serum Institute in India that makes the AZ vaccine has shut down and has to retest over a million vaccine shots for "stability". This is where the AZ vaccine in Canada comes from.
> 
> The manufacturers are being pushed to their limit by politicians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian vaccine firm denies Hancock’s claim rollout being hampered by supply shortage
> 
> 
> But Serum Institute of India insists there is ‘no question’ of any delays
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk


One of the reason I'm hesitant about AZ vaccine (it made in India)



> "I can confirm that we have 7 million releasable doses available of AstraZeneca," Psaki said at Thursday's White House press briefing. "2.5 million of those, we are working to finalize plans to lend those to Mexico and 1.5 million to Canada," she added.


Hmmmm


----------



## gibor365

IKEA Israel to offer COVID-19 vaccines at stores. Should Canada follow suit? - National | Globalnews.ca


The move has been quick to draw the attention of doctors and public health experts, with several in Canada signaling praise for the idea's implementation.




globalnews.ca





_In a tweet Sunday, Abdu Sharkawy a Toronto-area infectious diseases specialist, said the move was “another example of Israel’s outstanding #COVIDVaccine rollout.”
“Prioritizing incentive, accessibility goes a long way,” he wrote. “No surprise they’ve already vaccinated 40 per cent of their population.”
“This is how one does a vaccine rollout!” said Dr. Gerald Evans, an attending physician in infectious diseases and internal medicine at Kingston Health Sciences Centre._

I'd prefer if Canada buying extra Pfizer vaccines from Israel than getting AZ from US


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Actually we did. I never did get a flu shot because nobody had any.


That's odd, here in London I had no trouble getting an appointment within a week on November 5th.

I find it interesting that despite you claiming to live here, you seem to have such a different experience.
Flu shots are widely available, yet you can't get one?
Cucumbers in the store (I was there last night), yet you can't find any.


----------



## OptsyEagle

It all sounds like being afraid of the boogy man in the dark if you ask me.

One of the big problems I found with people's reactions to this pandemic is an inability to keep all the variables of the problem in their minds, while making their decisions or opinions. They just don't seem to do it. They focus on one part and then form their opinions, usually missing the larger picture...and it is very large.

Sags, for example seems concerned about 5 people who have some weird blood clots and wants to delay vaccination. He obviously is missing the point that throughout this pandemic a large part of our population thought that any precautions to this virus was overdone. They seem to feel that 2.5 million Covid deaths was an acceptable loss. What does he think they will think of 2000 wierd blood clot deaths are worth. That is the number we can expect if all 7 billion people in the world get vaccinated by AZ vaccine. What does he think the restaurant and other business owners are going to say when asked to shut down for an extra 3 months, while we investigate this? I think they will say, let Sags wait 3 months while the rest of us get some backbone and move on with our damn lives.

There will always be something to worry about. Lot's of drugs are made in India. Lots of people are having adverse events who are taking Pfizer, Moderna and I imagine Johnson and Johnson as well. *Do we just go back to our homes and take away all the welcome mats, because someone might have noticed someone having some reaction after vaccinating from something that might have been made improperly by someone they don't know, in a plant they have never seen?*

Is that really what we should do?


----------



## OptsyEagle

So I thought I would add a little positive information to some of this negative covid stuff. Many here may recall me talking about some of the amazing breakthroughs that are currently happening in the fight against cancer. Specially Immunotherapy, where my hero scientist, Jim Allison, discovered that our immune systems seem to be turned off against the threat of Cancer and he proceeded to discover a way to reactivate it again. After that our own immune systems see the cancer tumor for the threat it is and proceed to attack the cancer tumor directly. No more chemotherapy. There have been many lives saved to this technology so far and I have a very good feeling about this going forward, but of course there is still a lot of work to do.

Anyway, I noticed Moderna is looking very intently at developing mRNA vaccines to fight cancer. 









mRNA vaccine for cancer immunotherapy - Molecular Cancer


mRNA vaccines have become a promising platform for cancer immunotherapy. During vaccination, naked or vehicle loaded mRNA vaccines efficiently express tumor antigens in antigen-presenting cells (APCs), facilitate APC activation and innate/adaptive immune stimulation. mRNA cancer vaccine precedes...




molecular-cancer.biomedcentral.com





Other organizations are also starting human trials, as we speak, in the development of a vaccine to stop the reoccurrence of cancer in people who are expected to see a regrowth in the cancer's they once had.









Can mRNA vaccines be used in cancer care?


mRNA vaccines are being used to protect against the coronavirus, but can this novel technology be used in cancer care? Research being led by Scott Kopetz, M.D., Ph.D., and Van Morris, M.D., is investigating the approach to treat colorectal cancer patients in a Phase II clinical trial.




www.mdanderson.org





Anyway, maybe some better understanding of mRNA vaccines used in the fight against Covid-19 might be able to help in the fight to eradicate this nasty disease. Some lemonade from a lemon, so to speak.


----------



## sags

This is an article with a good explanation of what the concern is with the AZ vaccine.









‘It's a very special picture.' Why vaccine safety experts put the brakes on AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine


European doctors see an unusual combination of blood clots, low platelet counts, and internal bleeding in more than 13 vaccinated people




www.sciencemag.org


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> We also never got flu vaccine and I don't anybody who did


 ... aren't you folks concerned about getting a Covid vaccine prior to getting a flu-shot? Will be interesting ...


----------



## Money172375

Ontario opening up shots to 75+ on Monday. Does anyone know what time the website will be updated? Midnight? 8 am?


----------



## like_to_retire

Money172375 said:


> Ontario opening up shots to 75+ on Monday. Does anyone know what time the website will be updated? Midnight? 8 am?


They're also opening up the pharmacy program to everyone over 60 if you want the Astrazeneca.

ltr


----------



## sags

CBC reported that about 12% of people in Montreal walked away from a clinic without a vaccination, when they were told they would receive the AZ vaccine.

The positive is that 88% of the people chose to take the vaccine.

The Moderna vaccine will be available in pharmacies soon, and hopefully the Pfizer will be available in a few weeks or months.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> CBC reported that about 12% of people in Montreal walked away from a clinic without a vaccination, when they were told they would receive the AZ vaccine.
> 
> The positive is that 88% of the people chose to take the vaccine.
> 
> The Moderna vaccine will be available in pharmacies soon, and hopefully the Pfizer will be available in a few weeks or months.


Hopefully they did not cross the street, after they left. There is a chance they could have been hit by a car.


----------



## sags

Beaver101 said:


> ... aren't you folks concerned about getting a Covid vaccine prior to getting a flu-shot? Will be interesting ...


Isn't it a little late for a flu shot ? I never got one because there were none available.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> CBC reported that about 12% of people in Montreal walked away from a clinic without a vaccination, when they were told they would receive the AZ vaccine.
> 
> The positive is that 88% of the people chose to take the vaccine.
> 
> The Moderna vaccine will be available in pharmacies soon, and hopefully the Pfizer will be available in a few weeks or months.


yeah, people are stupid.

500 per million in Canada have died from COVID, and that's with only a fraction of the country even getting COVID.
The CFR looks like it's somewhere around 1-3%.

There were what, 40 deaths out of 17 million AZ doses? Or thats 2 in a million.

No matter how you slice the odds, AZ is orders of magnitude safer than even being in Canada. Let alone being one of the people who get COVID. It's many more times likely you will be murdered, than die from AZ.

I say if you refuse the AZ vaccine, end of the line, you can get your shot in 2022.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> Hopefully they did not cross the street, after they left. There is a chance they could have been hit by a car.


Yeah, now I will have to make a decision whether to take the Astrazeneca through the pharmacy as early as Monday, or wait until the government portal drops down from age 75 to 70. The portal was open only a week and now they are moving from 80 down to 75. 

I suppose there's no guarantee that if I wait for the government portal to move to 70 whether they will substitute the mRNA type for Astrazeneca.

Decisions, decisions.... I think I know what Optsy would do.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Isn't it a little late for a flu shot ? I never got one because there were none available.


That's the second time you said this, yet here in London flu shots were widely and easily available.

Do you just spout this nonsense to troll?


----------



## Beaver101

^ Let me re-phrase my question in response to sag's post#1001:

"Aren't you folks concerned about getting a Covid vaccine prior to never-ever getting a flu-shot? "

sags, I understand that you couldn't get the flu-shot 'cause there was none available for you to get it, this year. What about previous years?

My point in my comment of "will be interesting... " is seeing the after(side)-effects of a Covid vaccine when one hasn't experienced the after-effects of a flu-shot, if any of course". Maybe it'll be a non-issue of getting the Covid vaccine as far as side-effects go regardless of the flu-shot or not.


----------



## sags

I have always received the flu shot in past years.

There is an old thread on CMF somewhere that discussed the shortage last winter.

I haven't read any information on the effects of a flu shot prior or after a COVID shot.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> I have always received the flu shot in past years.
> 
> There is an old thread on CMF somewhere that discussed the shortage last winter.
> 
> *I haven't read any information on the effects of a flu shot prior or after a COVID shot.*


 ... it's the other way around. A Covid shot prior to a flu-shot.

Since you received the flu-shot in previous years, then you would have an experience with that ... prior to the Covid shot. 

The concern is for folks who never got a flu-shot in their life (or most of their adult). Something to think about that's all I'm saying.


----------



## sags

Ah.......okay, that I don't know.

I have received more pokes than a pin cushion. I just don't have full faith in the AZ vaccine.

I think there are good reasons not to. The AZ trials were very sloppy (screwed up doses), didn't include seniors, and wasn't transparent on the protocols or results. AZ is not manufacturing the AZ vaccine we are getting. They are being manufactured for them in India in a plant that shut down production just the other day to "re-check" batches of the vaccine for safety.

I am also not sure how AZ interacts with pre-existing conditions that a lot of us older folks have.

All in all....if I absolutely had no choice I would take the AZ. But I have a choice and can wait.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Ah.......okay, that I don't know.
> 
> You are asking if someone never received a flu shot in their life, would they be afraid of a COVID shot ?
> 
> Not me........I have received more shots than a pin cushion. I just don't have full faith in the AZ vaccine.
> 
> I think there are good reasons not to. The AZ trials were very sloppy (screwed up doses), didn't include seniors, and wasn't transparent on the protocols or results. AZ is not manufacturing the AZ vaccine we are getting. They are being manufactured for them in India in a plant that shut down production just the other day to "re-check" batches of the vaccine for safety.
> 
> All in all........if I absolutely had no choice I would take the AZ. But I have a choice and can stay home and wait.


It is completely normal to recheck pharmaceutical runs.

Yes, I know that some people have concerns that the worlds largest manufacturer of vaccines is one of the sites manufacturing the AZ vaccine.

Since there is no scientific reason to have concerns with the Indian made vaccine, I think the problem is because people are racist and/or scientifically illiterate.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Just a reminder for anyone hesitant in taking these vaccines. There is an alternative vaccination program.

Dr. Covid appears willing to immunize all unvaccinated people. There are no age restrictions or pre-existing condition exclusions and no appointment will be necessary. I will point out that this natural vaccination method does have side effects, some of them very serious, but the plan is to vaccinate everyone, anyway. Dr. Covid says full speed ahead and he even came up with some new variant needles to speed things up for us. No one will be left out.

It is what I call the 5th choice for vaccination.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Just a reminder for anyone hesitant in taking these vaccines. There is an alternative vaccination program.
> 
> Dr. Covid appears willing to immunize all unvaccinated people. There are no age restrictions or pre-existing condition exclusions and no appointment will be necessary. I will point out that this natural vaccination method does have side effects, some of them very serious, but the plan is to vaccinate everyone, anyway. Dr. Covid says full speed ahead and he even came up with some new variant needles to speed things up for us. No one will be left out.
> 
> It is what I call the 5th choice for vaccination.


Dr Darwin, I'm a fan.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> Dr Darwin, I'm a fan.


It appears to me that the problem seems to lie in asking people's permission. Dr. Covid finds that formality obstructive and decided to do away with it in the name of moving this program along.

I think he said something like; he understands that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. What he doesn't understand is why a horse would actually stand there, in the water, without drinking any of it, until he completely drops dead from dehydration.


----------



## milhouse

Money172375 said:


> Ontario opening up shots to 75+ on Monday. Does anyone know what time the website will be updated? Midnight? 8 am?


What's this booking witchery called a "website" you talk of?
In Vancouver, we're stuck in the dark ages and have to call in for an appointment... at least until until mid-April


----------



## MrMatt

milhouse said:


> What's this booking witchery called a "website" you talk of?
> In Vancouver, we're stuck in the dark ages and have to call in for an appointment... at least until until mid-April











How to book a COVID-19 vaccine appointment


Find out how you can schedule your COVID-19 vaccine appointments




covid-19.ontario.ca





I am not a fan of Doug Ford for a lot of reasons. 
I don't think he's even all that smart.

But he has proven to be very good at getting capable people in the right positions so that things happen.

I called to schedule a COVID19 test back in September... they still haven't called me back.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> We also never got flu vaccine and I don't anybody who did


I wasn't able to book an appointment (but I didn't try that hard). Both my parents got it through their physician.


----------



## Eclectic12

sags said:


> Isn't it a little late for a flu shot ? I never got one because there were none available.


Interesting ... around here, my employer's flu shot clinic provided almost double the number of flu shots, despite less than 1% of staff being in the building.

The local community clinics provided +200% from the previous season in about a month. There was a week delay booking appointments while more supplies were obtained but that seems to the only disruption with the clinics running until the end of Jan.


Cheers


----------



## gibor365

Beaver101 said:


> ... aren't you folks concerned about getting a Covid vaccine prior to getting a flu-shot? Will be interesting ...


What is your point?

Flu shot and mRNA Pfizer are 2 completely different animals...


----------



## gibor365

milhouse said:


> What's this booking witchery called a "website" you talk of?
> In Vancouver, we're stuck in the dark ages and have to call in for an appointment... at least until until mid-April


Wow! Looks like Ontario is pretty advanced province comparing to BC 
In Halton and York you can book appointment on local websites if you were born 1946 or earlier


----------



## sags

Are they telling people in advance what vaccine they are using, or are people tying up appointments and then deciding they don't want that vaccine when standing in the clinic ?

It might be helpful if they told people the vaccine in advance so someone else can get it.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Are they telling people in advance what vaccine they are using, or are people tying up appointments and then deciding they don't want that vaccine when standing in the clinic ?
> 
> It might be helpful if they told people the vaccine.


It's an approved COVID19 vaccine.
If you skip your vaccine appointment, you should go to the end of the line.

If you are going to refuse the vaccine, don't make an appointment.

Does it really matter what vaccine it is? 
They're all approved, they all work, they're all safe. 

Can you suggest a single valid reason to reject any of the approved vaccines?


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> What is your point?


 ... I stated my point above.



> Flu shot and mRNA Pfizer are 2 completely different animals...


 ... no kidding and not just the "Pzifer's" vaccine but all Covid vaccines supposedly (depending on who interprets this).


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> Are they telling people in advance what vaccine they are using, or are people tying up appointments and then deciding they don't want that vaccine when standing in the clinic ?
> 
> It might be helpful if they told people the vaccine in advance so someone else can get it.


In Ontario the pharmacy vaccines are Astrazeneca for the 60-65 ages. This will continue when they open the age group to over 60 next week.

The vaccines given through the government portal have been the mRNA type as its only been age 80 and above, but I suspect that will change that when they run out of mRNA and have a lot of excess Astrazeneca once they change the age limit to 75 next week.

ltr


----------



## gibor365

My mom and MIL got first shot in Halton... They live in different senior houses and who house was vaccinated same time....
Interesting that my MIL got Pfizer and my mom Moderma.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Can you suggest a single valid reason to reject any of the approved vaccines?


People with blood clotting issues have a valid concern about the safety of the AZ shot. This shot has also not yet been approved by the American FDA, as Phase III trials are still underway, not complete.

I talked with a friend of mine who's a doctor and chief science officer of a major American biotech company. His parents live in Canada. He told me that he would _prefer_ that his parents get a shot other than AZ. But he said "prefer". I think he's still in favour of them getting AZ versus getting nothing.

He also said that if someone had a clotting disease, he would wait and *not* get AZ. Without a clotting disease, the AZ shot is fine.


----------



## Money172375

Could a reason for the delayed American approval of AZ be that AZ isn’t a American company?


----------



## james4beach

Seems that my parents are now scheduled/booked to receive their shots in just two weeks.

I'm very happy about this. Much sooner than my earlier forecasts. Probably the best news I've heard all year.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Seems that my parents are now scheduled/booked to receive their shots in just two weeks.
> 
> I'm very happy about this. Much sooner than my earlier forecasts. Probably the best news I've heard all year.


Yeap, finally some good news .... my mom, MIL and uncle just had it, my aunt is 74 , so not yet... as they got really pissed off that in Israel everyone got 2 shots already.
btw, not sure about 2nd shot.... my uncle was told - in 4 months, my mom was told probably in a months, and my MIL diesn't undestand English


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> People with blood clotting issues have a valid concern about the safety of the AZ shot. This shot has also not yet been approved by the American FDA, as Phase III trials are still underway, not complete.
> 
> I talked with a friend of mine who's a doctor and chief science officer of a major American biotech company. His parents live in Canada. He told me that he would _prefer_ that his parents get a shot other than AZ. But he said "prefer". I think he's still in favour of them getting AZ versus getting nothing.
> 
> He also said that if someone had a clotting disease, he would wait and *not* get AZ. Without a clotting disease, the AZ shot is fine.


I can accept if you have a clotting issue, the AZ vaccine may not be appropriate.
But I think most of this is overreaction and ignorance.

We're talking like what 42 deaths out of 17 million shots?
That's 3 in a million









COVID-19 Vaccination


COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




www.cdc.gov




The US has 1913 deaths out of 109 million shots.
That's over 17 in a million.

I'm not saying that there isn't cause for concern, but I still haven't seen numbers that show AZ is "too risky".
It's important to note, effectively none of these deaths are proven to be caused by the vaccine, and it is quite possible that the deaths are independent of the vaccine. This seems likely considering the very very low rates.

Also remember, the COVID19 death rate is sitting at 3% Which is 3000 in a million for those that get COVID.
For Canada we're at something like 500/million citizens in deaths. (likely because not everyone has had COVID19 yet)








Coronavirus Update (Live): 123,042,823 Cases and 2,715,771 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer


Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...




www.worldometers.info


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> I'm not saying that there isn't cause for concern, but I still haven't seen numbers that show AZ is "too risky".


I noted on the other forum that there certainly seems to be a bigger risk in not taking the vaccine with respect to blood clots.
Some interesting number coming from Thrombosis Canada regarding Astrazeneca.

_"These blood clots were found to occur in *1 in 250,000* to 1 in 500,000 people who received the vaccine.
By comparison, people who have COVID-19 are at much higher risk of developing blood clots, which occur in about *1 in 20* people who are in hospital with COVID-19 and in about *1 in 100* people who have COVID-19 but are not in hospital."_

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> I noted on the other forum that there certainly seems to be a bigger risk in not taking the vaccine with respect to blood clots.
> Some interesting number coming from Thrombosis Canada regarding Astrazeneca.


That's kind of the point, taking any of the approved vaccines dramatically improves your situation. It's a no brainer.

I'm not aware of any publicly available data, or public reports that show AZ is higher risk.

I don't know why some people are so insistent to push their antivaxxer agenda. Do they want fancy Make Covid Great Again hats?


----------



## agent99

gibor365 said:


> Wow! Looks like Ontario is pretty advanced province comparing to BC
> In Halton and York you can book appointment on local websites if you were born 1946 or earlier


We didn't have to call or book on-line. They called us and asked if we would like to come that day (March 2nd) or the following day. (Kingston, Ontario.)

Wife & I (79&81) got our shots on March 3rd in the local hockey arena along with hundreds of others - Mostly older people but also quite a number of younger people who were possibly front line workers or had some other reason. Second shot will be on March 28th - appointment booked by helpers with tablets while we did required 15 min wait after getting shot. Pfizer vaccine.

Pretty efficient all round!


----------



## gibor365

agent99 said:


> We didn't have to call or book on-line. They called us and asked if we would like to come that day (March 2nd) or the following day. (Kingston, Ontario.)
> 
> Wife & I (79&81) got our shots on March 3rd in the local hockey arena along with hundreds of others - Mostly older people but also quite a number of younger people who were possibly front line workers or had some other reason. Second shot will be on March 28th - appointment booked by helpers with tablets while we did required 15 min wait after getting shot. Pfizer vaccine.
> 
> Pretty efficient all round!


It's tricky now about 2nd shot... I also hope my mom will get it in 1 month, but I've heard from several seniors that their 2nd shot appointment was rescheduled by 4 months.

In my mom's amd MIL's case, they live in senior housings, so everyone in the house got form to fill out and appointment date... it was delayed for 1 week, but they got 1st shots


----------



## agent99

gibor365 said:


> It's tricky now about 2nd shot... I also hope my mom will get it in 1 month, but I've heard from several seniors that their 2nd shot appointment was rescheduled by 4 months.
> 
> In my mom's amd MIL's case, they live in senior housings, so everyone in the house got form to fill out and appointment date... it was delayed for 1 week, but they got 1st shots


You are right:








Kingston-area public health to delay second COVID-19 doses for some - Kingston | Globalnews.ca


The move to delay second doses is being made across Ontario in order to prioritize first doses for a larger number of people to protect against the COVID-19 variants of concern.




globalnews.ca





We will likely get that call


----------



## sags

The Europeans say they found a link between the AZ and the rare blood clots.

The rate they discovered was 10X more prevalent than it would be expected in general populations. 

They may have a treatment for the clots, but not a prevention.

Some Canadian experts say to keep vaccinating and others say to stop until there is more data.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/astrazeneca-blood-clot-risk-canada-1.5957462


----------



## Money172375

Anyone in Peel get a shot at UTM? Curious as to which shot they’re using. lucked out and was googling and found the booking site was up and running for 75+. The tweet from the Region announcing the opening came out about 90 mins later. Booked my dad in for Wednesday.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The Europeans say they found a link between the AZ and the rare blood clots.
> 
> The rate they discovered was 10X more prevalent than it would be expected in general populations.
> 
> They may have a treatment for the clots, but not a prevention.
> 
> Some Canadian experts say to keep vaccinating and others say to stop until there is more data.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/astrazeneca-blood-clot-risk-canada-1.5957462


Did you read the article?
"The EMA said there was no increased risk from blood clots and that because the AstraZeneca-Oxford vaccine is effective in preventing COVID-19, which itself causes blood clots, the shot could actually reduce the risk of them overall. "

Also they never said 10X more prevalent (you just made that up with bad math)

They did say that for one specific type of clot it was more common, but again there was no overall increased risk of blood clots. Which to me sounds like one type of blood clot is occurring more, and other types less, resulting in no net change in blot clot risk. Which again was their conclusion.

Hey, I'm all for discussion, and investigation, but posting false information regarding vaccine safety isn't cool. 
Why are you pushing the Anti-vaxxer agenda?
Are you going to the anti-masker protests too?


----------



## Eder

Wow.









100 millionth covid vaccine to be given in U.S. Friday


The United States will reach its goal of having administered 100 million coronavirus vaccine doses by Friday.




www.honolulunews.net


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> Wow.


Yup, impressive vaccination effort in the US. Really happy to see what's going on there.

Nice to also see it accelerating in Canada, with far more deliveries happening now, and accelerating into next month. We hope.

I would also suggest to people that even when they kick you out after 15 mins, linger around near the facility for perhaps _another_ 15 mins. Maybe go for a walk or something. If there's any serious allergic reaction it seems to happen within ~ 30 mins. These are rare, but they do happen.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Nice to also see it accelerating in Canada, with far more deliveries happening now, and accelerating into next month. We hope.


It does seem to be speeding up now. Before it was the parents of people I know, now the people I know are starting to get appointments.


----------



## Eder

Honolulu news said 1.5 million AZ shots leaving for Canada in the next week.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> Yup, impressive vaccination effort in the US. Really happy to see what's going on there.
> 
> Nice to also see it accelerating in Canada, with far more deliveries happening now, and accelerating into next month. We hope.
> 
> I would also suggest to people that even when they kick you out after 15 mins, linger around near the facility for perhaps _another_ 15 mins. Maybe go for a walk or something. If there's any serious allergic reaction it seems to happen within ~ 30 mins. These are rare, but they do happen.


56 reports from 120,000. What does Sags think about this? Maybe we should put both of those vaccines, Pfizer and Moderna on hold as well. (LOL) That sounds like a lot more then the blood clot episodes and some of those allergic reactions sound pretty nasty. Maybe hold this program for 3 months while we investigate. As Sags looks at it, better to be very sorry then sorry.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> 56 reports from 120,000. What does Sags think about this? Maybe we should put both of those vaccines, Pfizer and Moderna on hold as well. (LOL) That sounds like a lot more then the blood clot episodes and some of those allergic reactions sound pretty nasty. Maybe hold this program for 3 months while we investigate. As Sags looks at it, better to be very sorry then sorry.


Sags doesntt think, they form an opinion, then argue it, irrespective of the fact pattern.


----------



## OptsyEagle

My intention is not to make fun of a particular person's concerns or opinions, but to put into context the concern itself. Any opinions are welcome.

However, as I have argued, even if the blood clots are related to the vaccine, and that is still awaiting any determination, it is wayyyyy too small of number to put a vaccine, of this importance, on hold for any amount of time. This is not a bottle of aspirin that might be corrupt, where we have a slew of alternatives, it is a scarce vaccine to end a pandemic that is destroying our lives and society. Even a 0.01% rate of adverse episodes would probably be an acceptable cost for such a benefit, but 0.00023%, and even lower if we just focus on these abnormal clots that Sags keeps reminding us of.

That is my point.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> My intention is not to make fun of a particular person's concerns or opinions, but to put into context the concern itself. Any opinions are welcome.
> 
> However, as I have argued, even if the blood clots are related to the vaccine, and that is still awaiting any determination, it is wayyyyy too small of number to put a vaccine, of this importance, on hold for any amount of time. This is not a bottle of aspirin that might be corrupt, where we have a slew of alternatives, it is a scarce vaccine to end a pandemic that is destroying our lives and society. Even a 0.01% rate of adverse episodes would probably be an acceptable cost for such a benefit, but 0.00023%, and even lower if we just focus on these abnormal clots that Sags keeps reminding us of.
> 
> That is my point.


My point is that the reported expert opinion is that there is no increased risk with the AZ vaccine. That determination has been made.
Of course they'll continue investigating, because while political idiots says "the debate is over", in science, the debate is NEVER over.
Think about that, one of the highest profile vaccine initiatives in history, with massive public datasets, and they've found nothing.

Yet people want to sit there and say "stop, stop stop". Then linking to articles saying there is no increased risk.

My point is that these people are completely ignoring the facts.
Also specific to sags, they have repeatedly made claims that are not true, and they often refuse to back up claims they do make, along with making statements that appear to be false. I don't thin spreading fear and disinformation on vaccines is appropriate, and I denounce it in the strongest terms.

I think everyone should be vaccinated.
I'm opposed to mandatory vaccinations, I believe incredibly strongly in personal autonomy.
I'm also opposed to vaccine passports, for multiple reasons.


----------



## kcowan

I don't understand the opposition to vaccine passports. It would enable freer travel to,other countries/regions just like rabies in cats.


----------



## MrMatt

kcowan said:


> I don't understand the opposition to vaccine passports. It would enable freer travel to,other countries/regions just like rabies in cats.


We don't know what they what the policies would look like. Until a good proposal exits, I'll assume the proposal is bad.
We don't know if they'd be effective. Again, until someone shows that their proposal will work, I will assume it won't.

I also think you have a moral right to refuse any medical intervention, including vaccinations.
While I strongly support vaccinations. I'm also very strong about not infringing on the rights of the individual.
I actually think the argument to prohibit abortions is far stronger than the argument to force vaccinations.
And I say that as someone who is mostly pro-abortion. 

If you are willing to ignore the rights of the individual for the "collective good" that leads to very very bad things, and you're either evil or ignorant.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Vaccine passports do not infringe on the right to not vaccinate. They just prove that a person did. If a service or freedom is ONLY given to those who prove they vaccinated, then that is an infringement on a person's freedom.

For example. If a person can either prove vaccination and enter a country immediately, where another person who cannot prove vaccination has to get a PCR test, maybe quarantine for a few days, etc., that is not an infringement on a person's freedom. They can enter the country with our without vaccinating. Their choice has not been taken away from them.

I imagine the "non-vaccinated" will disagree and say it is an infringement on freedom but I say that all the complaints and infringements are coming simply from safety measures imposed. That is something our society has been doing for years (speed limits for example), for obvious reasons, and I have no doubt that will continue, especially as it relates to Covid-19.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Vaccine passports do not infringe on the right to not vaccinate. They just prove that a person did. If a service or freedom is ONLY given to those who prove they vaccinated, then that is an infringement on a person's freedom.
> 
> For example. If a person can either prove vaccination and enter a country immediately, where another person who cannot prove vaccination has to get a PCR test, maybe quarantine for a few days, etc., that is not an infringement on a person's freedom. They can enter the country with our without vaccinating. Their choice has not been taken away from them.
> 
> I imagine the "non-vaccinated" will disagree and say it is an infringement on freedom but I say that all the complaints and infringements are coming simply from safety measures imposed. That is something our society has been doing for years (speed limits for example), for obvious reasons, and I have no doubt that will continue, especially as it relates to Covid-19.


Which is why the proposal itself must be discussed, saying "vaccine passports" isn't clear enough.
Again I'm opposed to vaccine passports, because they haven't clearly defined what they mean, not because I'm an anti-vaxxer. 

You can be simultaneously against a bad policy, but for the underlying goal.

There are many things where I share the stated goals, but I am opposed to the actual policy being proposed.
Often because a bad policy actually makes the situation worse.


----------



## Retired Peasant

james4beach said:


> Yup, impressive vaccination effort in the US. Really happy to see what's going on there.
> 
> Nice to also see it accelerating in Canada, with far more deliveries happening now, and accelerating into next month. We hope.
> 
> I would also suggest to people that even when they kick you out after 15 mins, linger around near the facility for perhaps _another_ 15 mins. Maybe go for a walk or something. If there's any serious allergic reaction it seems to happen within ~ 30 mins. These are rare, but they do happen.


That article suggests waiting 30 mins if there is a concern about allergic reaction. They don't actually dig too deep on the 56 reactions. 10 anaphylaxis, 16 other allergic reations, 1 Bell's palsy... what about the rest? Even fainting can be considered an adverse reaction and so reported.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> Which is why the proposal itself must be discussed, saying "vaccine passports" isn't clear enough.
> Again I'm opposed to vaccine passports, because they haven't clearly defined what they mean, not because I'm an anti-vaxxer.
> 
> You can be simultaneously against a bad policy, but for the underlying goal.
> 
> There are many things where I share the stated goals, but I am opposed to the actual policy being proposed.
> Often because a bad policy actually makes the situation worse.


Sure. I would prefer to call them Vaccination Confirmations" or something like that. So I agree with your point about the name. I also believe that the government would be delusional if they think that proving vaccination for Covid-19 will not be required in some way at some time going forward.


----------



## agent99

kcowan said:


> I don't understand the opposition to vaccine passports. It would enable freer travel to,other countries/regions just like rabies in cats.


I agree. There was a time when I had to carry a little yellow book showing the diseases I had been vaccinated against. Not a big problem. Covid should no doubt be included. Your guide to travel vaccination certificates


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> We don't know what they what the policies would look like. Until a good proposal exits, I'll assume the proposal is bad.
> We don't know if they'd be effective. Again, until someone shows that their proposal will work, I will assume it won't.
> 
> I also think you have a moral right to refuse any medical intervention, including vaccinations.
> While I strongly support vaccinations. I'm also very strong about not infringing on the rights of the individual.
> I actually think the argument to prohibit abortions is far stronger than the argument to force vaccinations.
> And I say that as someone who is mostly pro-abortion.
> 
> If you are willing to ignore the rights of the individual for the "collective good" that leads to very very bad things, and you're either evil or ignorant.


If someone infects another person with the virus after refusing vaccination, should they be charged with assault? If they die, manslaughter? If you answer no, I don't see how you can moan about a vaccine passport.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Which is why the proposal itself must be discussed, saying "vaccine passports" isn't clear enough.
> Again I'm opposed to vaccine passports, because they haven't clearly defined what they mean, not because I'm an anti-vaxxer.


Don't people already get a certificate saying they've been vacinated for covid? What else is needed?


----------



## sags

I am not concerned with ordinary blood clots (bruising) typical for injections of any kind.

I am concerned about the very rare type of blood clot in the brain linked to the AZ vaccine.

The AZ has had problems, and are now a "sunk money" political problem as well.

The AZ is only one of 4 available vaccines and I can wait for one of the others.

People should get vaccinated. Which one they are comfortable to take is up to them.


----------



## agent99

cainvest said:


> Don't people already get a certificate saying they've been vacinated for covid? What else is needed?


Do they? I certainly didn't get anything after our first dose.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> If someone infects another person with the virus after refusing vaccination, should they be charged with assault? If they die, manslaughter? If you answer no, I don't see how you can moan about a vaccine passport.


You want to criminalize catching a diesease?
Sorry, one of the foundational principles of our criminal justice system is intent.

People who catch a diesease in most cases did not intend to catch it, and when they spread it again, they don't intend to.
No intent no crime.

This is unlike people who smoke in public, they purposely intend to create a dangerous substance, and take actions that a reasonable person would understand they expose others.
The key point is that there is an intent to do this action, and it is completely voluntarily.

I think we should charge smokers with assault.

I have a serious problem with criminalizing the choice to refuse medical treatment.
I think you should ALWAYS have the right to refuse medical treatment.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> I am not concerned with ordinary blood clots (bruising) typical for injections of any kind.
> 
> I am concerned about the very rare type of blood clot in the brain linked to the AZ vaccine.
> 
> The AZ has had problems, and are now a "sunk money" political problem as well.
> 
> The AZ is only one of 4 available vaccines and I can wait for one of the others.
> 
> People should get vaccinated. Which one they are comfortable to take is up to them.


Not if their comfort zone is based on misleading opinion. Have you compared the allergic reactions events of all the vaccines? Perhaps Pfizer and Moderna allergic reactions are 100 times higher then the blood clots with Astrazeneca. That would make Astrazeneca safer, in my opinion.

My point is that you are sticking to an opinion, that even if right is not a reason to stop using a vaccine that we are in serious short supply with. On top of that you have not done a thorough analysis of all the information like the NACI or the EMA has, yet you still want people to make decisions based on this incomplete analysis.

That is why I keep responding each time you make this mistake. It is a serious decision for people. We are not going to be getting a choice of vaccine, at this time. The best we can do is wait and there is a much bigger risk to waiting then to go forward, but you seem unable to let the conclusion from the numbers affect your opinion. You just stay focused on this insignificant number and keep pounding the table that it is more serious then it can ever be.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I am not concerned with ordinary blood clots (bruising) typical for injections of any kind.
> 
> I am concerned about the very rare type of blood clot in the brain linked to the AZ vaccine.
> 
> The AZ has had problems, and are now a "sunk money" political problem as well.
> 
> The AZ is only one of 4 available vaccines and I can wait for one of the others.
> 
> People should get vaccinated. Which one they are comfortable to take is up to them.


There is no elevated risk of death from the AZ vaccine due to blood clots. You posted links to news articles documenting this.

I agree, we should not force anyone to take a vaccine they are not comfortable with. Even if it is for a stupid reason, ie media hype.
That being said, since you clearly are not willing to take the available vaccine, I suggest you go to the back of the line after everyone else gets their vaccine.

You should be free to opt out, however when you do so, you should lose your place in line.


----------



## Spudd

OptsyEagle said:


> If a service or freedom is ONLY given to those who prove they vaccinated, then that is an infringement on a person's freedom.


This is already happening. Crystal Cruises is only allowing vaccinated people to cruise with them. 

I would not be surprised if countries require proof of vaccination to enter in the future. This already exists with some countries/vaccines: for example. yellow fever vaccine is required to travel to many African countries.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> There is no elevated risk of death from the AZ vaccine due to blood clots. You posted links to news articles documenting this.
> I


FUD......there is ample evidence of deaths from the rare blood clots linked to AZ.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> FUD......there is ample evidence of deaths from the rare blood clots linked to AZ.


I don't think you understand the term FUD. If anything, you are engaging in FUD.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> FUD......there is ample evidence of deaths from the rare blood clots linked to AZ.


yet you seem unable to provide any. I suggest you read a recent report on this. To be fair this isn't my link, you posted it, I think you just didn't bother reading it.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/astrazeneca-blood-clot-risk-canada-1.5957462



"The EMA said there was no increased risk from blood clots and that because the AstraZeneca-Oxford vaccine is effective in preventing COVID-19, which itself causes blood clots, the shot could actually reduce the risk of them overall."


----------



## sags

If you are going to provide a quote as proof......you should provide the whole quote.

_*But not all blood clots are the same*, and 18 of the cases in Europe were of an extremely rare type called cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST) — where veins that drain blood from the brain are obstructed and can potentially cause fatal bleeding.

Most of the incidents occurred within 14 days of receiving the AstraZeneca shot, and the majority were in women under the age of 55. It's worth noting that this type of blood clot is much more common in women, particularly during and after pregnancy and while on birth control.

*Three of the seven patients in Germany who were recently vaccinated with the AstraZeneca-Oxford shot that had this rare brain blood clot have died.*

In its investigative document, t*he EMA said it would expect to see just 1.35 cases of CVST in the time period it looked at — but instead its researchers saw 12.*_


----------



## cainvest

agent99 said:


> Do they? I certainly didn't get anything after our first dose.


Just looked it up for Manitoba, they are available online which provides the vaccine name and date given.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> If you are going to provide a quote as proof......you should provide the whole quote.
> 
> _But not all blood clots are the same, and 18 of the cases in Europe were of an extremely rare type called cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST) — where veins that drain blood from the brain are obstructed and can potentially cause fatal bleeding.
> 
> Most of the incidents occurred within 14 days of receiving the AstraZeneca shot, and the majority were in women under the age of 55. It's worth noting that this type of blood clot is much more common in women, particularly during and after pregnancy and while on birth control.
> 
> *Three of the seven patients in Germany who were recently vaccinated with the AstraZeneca-Oxford shot that had this rare brain blood clot have died.*
> 
> In its investigative document, t*he EMA said it would expect to see just 1.35 cases of CVST in the time period it looked at — but instead its researchers saw 12.*_



I've already addressed it. Basically I read it as the risk of blood clot A decreases and blood clot B increases, for no net change in blood clot risk.
From your links

COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca is not associated with an increased overall risk of blood clotting disorders.

The very important thing to note is that there isn't any evidence of higher risk of blood clots or death that can be attributed to the AZ vaccine. << this is from *YOUR *articles.


----------



## Spudd

Other thing is, it seems to mainly affect women under 55, so why is Sags concerned about taking it himself?


----------



## OptsyEagle

Spudd said:


> This is already happening. Crystal Cruises is only allowing vaccinated people to cruise with them.
> 
> I would not be surprised if countries require proof of vaccination to enter in the future. This already exists with some countries/vaccines: for example. yellow fever vaccine is required to travel to many African countries.


No doubt, but that is not a reason to not provide confirmation of vaccination. When someone gets around to ripping Crystal Cruise lines a new one on this discrimination, having a vaccination confirmation will still help in getting a cruise, the only difference will be that those who cannot produce a Vac. confirmation will have to prove their safety some other way.

You see what I mean. The vac. confirmation just allows those who we know are safe to move through the process quicker. It should never be used to exclude others, in my opinion.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Spudd said:


> Other thing is, it seems to mainly affect women under 55, so why is Sags concerned about taking it himself?


I know what you are saying but none of this is relevant. The risk of delaying a vaccination is easily 1000s of times riskier then anything we have seen pertaining to blood clots. That is the point. All this discussion does is produce hesitancy in the people who have a hard time understanding it and thinking that if they made it this far they will make it longer. I can tell people the % of people that will lose that bet but that is not my point.

I am not overly concerned about hesitancy either, because I believe, even Sags will eventually see the light. I imagine as more people are vaccinated safely, those hesitant will come forward. In the mean time, no vaccination shots, for anyone who has walked away or not enrolled, has been wasted. Someone else who can either see the larger picture, or just sees the problem of delay as the bigger problem in their life, has come forward right away to take the shots that would otherwise be given to the timid.

We will see more of this. Even most of those PSWs that did not get vaccinated will eventually come forward. They will see the benefit to their lives and should eventually notice that we are fighting a much more dangerous virus this year then we were last year. If you haven't noticed, the old virus is being quickly replaced with a much more deadlier one and as soon as people start to see this, I think a lot of the hesitancy will boil away. People will be able to put their fears into proper perspective.


----------



## gibor365

agent99 said:


> Do they? I certainly didn't get anything after our first dose.


My mom and MIL got email that they got 1 vaccine. Not sure if you can call it certificate



> Don't people already get a certificate saying they've been vacinated for covid? What else is needed?


because they should be policy, for example 1 month after you receive 2nd vaccine , you get some kind of "green pass"..
Not less democratic than Canada countries are doing "green pass/passport".... stop playing BS that we are the most democratic in the World LOL









Covid Passport: The 15 Best European Destinations Ready For Vaccinated Travelers


As the European Commission works on issuing a digital vaccination passport, some E.U. countries are already recognizing the document.




www.forbes.com


----------



## agent99

cainvest said:


> Just looked it up for Manitoba, they are available online which provides the vaccine name and date given.


No idea about Manitoba. Do you know anyone who was actually given a covid vaccination card when vaccinated?

Ontario said in December that we would get them. But by March when we were vaccinated, we received nothing. 


gibor365 said:


> My mom and MIL got email that they got 1 vaccine. Not sure if you can call it certificate


Actually Gibor is right, we did get an email saying we had got the first dose. 

There are databases that are kept that supposedly include all of a persons vaccinations, but they are apparently not easy for an individual to access and are not Covid specific. Besides, they are inaccurate because some of us received vaccinations for various diseases in other provinces or other countries, sometimes long before computers were invented 

Maybe the first person on CMF to receive a Covid vaccination card could post a picture


----------



## nortel'd

OptsyEagle said:


> I imagine as more people are vaccinated safely, those hesitant will come forward.


I am with this crowd. 
My daughter is insisting I get vaccinated before August first. 

My husband, her father, and my twin sister and my sister's husband have already received their first shots. Her father, got Pfizer, the N95 of vaccines. My twin sister and B-I-L got Moderna, the KN95 of vaccines. Maybe I'll be lucky and get my Pfizer, but as August approaches, I may just have to settle for AstraZeneca, a “modestly inferior” to mRNA vaccine, the three layered cloth without a filter vaccine.

Right now, I am confident my PPE is working for me. I also feel very strongly there is nothing wrong with my giving up a series of vaccinations that could end up in the arm of my 40 something neighbors. They are supporting a young family. Every time they have a positive case at their places of employment, they worry. Their need to start feeling safer, is far greater than mine. 



OptsyEagle said:


> We will see more of this. Even most of those PSWs that did not get vaccinated will eventually come forward. They will see the benefit to their lives and should eventually notice that we are fighting a much more dangerous virus this year then we were last year. If you haven't noticed, the old virus is being quickly replaced with a much more deadlier one and as soon as people start to see this, I think a lot of the hesitancy will boil away. People will be able to put their fears into proper perspective.


Then maybe by the time I get my Pfizer... it will be too late.
So far, studies suggest that the vaccines currently in use can recognize the emerging variants — but they don't provide as much protection against these new strains. The variant from South Africa, for example, reduced Pfizer-BioNTech's antibody protection by two-thirds, according to a February study. Moderna's neutralizing antibodies dropped six-fold with the South Africa variant.


----------



## agent99

nortel'd said:


> So far, studies suggest that the vaccines currently in use can recognize the emerging variants — but they don't provide as much protection against these new strains. The variant from South Africa, for example, reduced Pfizer-BioNTech's antibody protection by two-thirds, according to a February study. Moderna's neutralizing antibodies dropped six-fold with the South Africa variant.


Puzzling thing, is that in South Africa number of cases and deaths has gone down. Rate of vaccination in country is not high. They stopped using the A-Z vaccine because it was not effective against their Covid strain. This before the blood clot issue came up. 

Only explanation might be that they live more of an outdoor life, perhaps like Australia. Except in the major cities.


----------



## sags

I have read the J & J vaccine is effective against the variants and they are creating booster shots as well.


----------



## OptsyEagle

nortel'd said:


> Then maybe by the time I get my Pfizer... it will be too late.
> So far, studies suggest that the vaccines currently in use can recognize the emerging variants — but they don't provide as much protection against these new strains. The variant from South Africa, for example, reduced Pfizer-BioNTech's antibody protection by two-thirds, according to a February study. Moderna's neutralizing antibodies dropped six-fold with the South Africa variant.


Just keep in mind that South Africa was not measuring hospitalizations or deaths but simply measuring infections, of people with an average age of 31, working in the dangerous healthcare industry. The people who were unvaccinated knew they were unvaccinated and not protected and would have taken maximum precautions. The people who were vaccinated knew they were and probably thought they were immune to anything covid.

Even with that uncontrolled experiment, they ended up with no deaths or hospitalizations from the Astrazeneca vaccinated group and STILL found that the vaccinated group had a 20% improvement from infections then the unvaccinated all while dealing with the most infectious virus on the planet, the South African variant.

To say that the Astrazeneca vaccine is not effective is a serious understatement. If anyone ends up meeting up with this variant, I think you will be in an enormously safer position to have been vaccinated with the Astrazeneca vaccine then without any. * I doubt even the JNJ would have ended up with a higher efficacy then 20% had it been run in the identical uncontrolled environment.*


----------



## cainvest

agent99 said:


> No idea about Manitoba. Do you know anyone who was actually given a covid vaccination card when vaccinated?


All MB info is here -> Province of Manitoba | Immunization Record
They say it's typically available online 48 hrs after your shot but I'll ask a few people next time I talk to them if they downloaded it.

On a side note, I just asked a friend last night (who is due to be scheduled for a shot) to ask if he can choose which vaccine he'll get. I thought it may be possible as all shots here in the city are in a single place.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> On a side note, I just asked a friend last night (who is due to be scheduled for a shot) to ask if he can choose which vaccine he'll get. I thought it may be possible as all shots here in the city are in a single place.


At least in Winnipeg, when you book online, you will see which brand of vaccine you are scheduled for.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> What does Sags think about this? Maybe we should put both of those vaccines, Pfizer and Moderna on hold as well.


I think the concern @sags has is that the AZ shot is showing a very unique, and potent, kind of blood clot. It's not a typical side effect (this kind of blood clot is often fatal). Scientists are trying to figure out the cause. There are a couple of theories but it sounds like they still haven't really figured out the mechanism.

This most recent article says that the rare blood clots mostly affect women under age 55 though one Danish woman who died from it was 60.

I do think this is an important issue because at younger ages, COVID is not particularly deadly. Blood clots of this variety are. So this problem DOES change the risk/reward equation.

I think it totally makes sense to wait and get more information abut what's going on with AZ. The critical thing with any vaccine (any drug) is the risk/reward equation. Today, if you are a 40 year old woman, you have to think extra hard about whether the AZ shot presents good reward vs risk.

For a healthy 40 year old, COVID is _very_ unlikely to kill them. But the blood clot side effect can. Is it a good idea _for a 40 year old_ to get vaccinated with AZ? I'm not sure.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I think the concern @sags has is that the AZ shot is showing a very unique, and potent, kind of blood clot. It's not a typical side effect (this kind of blood clot is often fatal). Scientists are trying to figure out the cause. There are a couple of theories but it sounds like they still haven't really figured out the mechanism.
> 
> This most recent article says that the rare blood clots mostly affect women under age 55.
> 
> I do think this is an important issue because at younger ages, COVID is not particularly deadly. Blood clots of this variety are. So this problem DOES change the risk/reward equation.
> 
> I think it totally makes sense to wait and get more information abut what's going on with AZ. The critical thing with any vaccine (any drug) is the risk/reward equation. Today, if you are a 40 year old woman, you have to think extra hard about whether the AZ shot presents good reward vs risk.


I fully understand that they have a concern with that particular type of blood clot.

I do think it is important.

However, since it does NOT change the overall risk/reward equation, as documented by the links sags and yourself provided it's a non issue.

Why should a 40 year old women think "extra hard". There is no data to support "extra hard" thinking. To suggest there is, well that's EXACTLY what FUD is.
FUD is Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. This is the favourite strategy of anti-vaxxers, they know they don't have the science or the data on their side, so they resort to spreading fear and uncertainty.

There is no data that the AZ vaccine results in a higher risk of blood clots.
Where there is some data that raises concerns, these were investigated and found not to increase risk.
Again from the article *YOU* linked to.
The EMA said the benefits of the vaccine far outweigh the potential risks — and pointed out that *the rate of post-vaccine blood clots was actually lower than the expected rate in the general population*.

I'm going to be really clear here, the articles the anti-vaxxers are pulling, explicitly state, that there is no increased risk. I'm not pulling them, the anti-vaxxers are referencing sources saying there is no increased risk. I don't even think they read the articles they cite.

The experts of course are continuing to investigate, but as it is right now, there is no increased risk, and there is no proven causal link. To suggest that anyone should delay vaccination because of of this is simply a pathetic attempt to spread FUD and is irresponsible.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> *Today, if you are a 40 year old woman, it may be an unsafe risk to get the AZ shot.*


There is no data to support that statement, I don't know why you're pushing an anti-vaxxer agenda and promoting COVID19 disinformation, but I think it's highly inappropriate.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> There is no data to support that statement, I don't know why you're pushing an anti-vaxxer agenda and promoting COVID19 disinformation, but I think it's highly inappropriate.


There very much is data to support my statement.

There were 13 cases of this severe blood clot in Germany out of 1.6 million AZ doses (a potentially fatal condition). That rate of the unusual/severe blood clot is 0.8 per 100K, all women by the sounds of it.

Now let's look at 30-39 year old female demographic for COVID deaths. In Canada, there are roughly 79/2=39 deaths of women, out of a population of 2.6 million. The rate of deaths from COVID in this demographic is 1.5 per 100K

So now think about the situation for a 35 year old woman

If she remains unvaccinated, there's a death rate of 1.5 per 100K from COVID
If she takes the AZ vaccine, there's a severe blood cot rate of 0.8 per 100K
That's not a very wide margin, at that age. Given the uncertainty in these figures, those rates per population _are almost the same_. What we are *supposed* to see with vaccinations is a dramatically lower rate of serious/fatal side effects, versus the disease.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> There very much is data to support my statement.


Yes and no


> There were 13 cases of this severe blood clot in Germany out of 1.6 million AZ doses (a potentially fatal condition). That rate of the unusual/severe blood clot is 0.8 per 100K, all women by the sounds of it.


For that one subtype of blood clots there is a higher incidence than expected, however the experts have concluded that the overall risk of bloodclots is unchanged.
You seem to skip over that key detail, again and again.




> Now let's look at 30-39 year old female demographic for COVID deaths. In Canada, there are roughly 79/2=39 deaths of women, out of a population of 2.6 million. The rate of deaths from COVID in this demographic is 1.5 per 100K


The entire population of 30-39 women hasn't had COVID, so your CFR estimate for that group is wrong.
I believe the CFR is far higher than 1.5 per 100k



> So now think about the situation for a 35 year old woman
> 
> If she remains unvaccinated, there's a death rate of 1.5 per 100K from COVID
> If she takes the AZ vaccine, there's a severe blood cot rate of 0.8 per 100k
> That's not a very wide margin, at that age. Given the uncertainty in these figures, those rates per population _are almost the same_. What we are *supposed* to see with vaccinations is a dramatically lower rate of serious/fatal side effects, versus the disease.


You're missing the one critical difference
The risk of getting a blood clot with the AZ vaccine is the same as getting a blood clot WITHOUT the AZ vaccine. << that's the piece you're omitting from your analysis.



Same risk of blood clot, and dramatically lower risk of dying from COVID, it's a no-brainer.


----------



## gibor365

> I also think you have a moral right to refuse any medical intervention, including vaccinations.


 and I have moral right to refuse lockdowns


----------



## sags

The choice is between getting an AZ vaccination or waiting for one of the other vaccines.

It isn't a binary choice between COVID and the AZ vaccine, as some people keep repeating.


----------



## Eder

Anyway we decided to get wifey poked yesterday. I booked CVS online, made the appointment in about 2 minutes for today. Had the choice of Pfizer, Moderna or J&J. 

Walked into CVS, online check in...5 minutes before vaccine time, nice girl gave her a vaccine card...got poked with Pfizer shot exactly on time, 15 minute sit down wait, now we are home. 

Next shot already booked in 2 1/2 weeks, same place. No fuss, no questions other than about allergies,no need for ID,insurance card nothing.

Oh...no soreness or any other symptom.

I'll wait till all Hawaiians get theirs before I get myself done.


----------



## Eder

james4beach said:


> That's not a very wide margin, at that age. Given the uncertainty in these figures, those rates per population _are almost the same_. What we are *supposed* to see with vaccinations is a dramatically lower rate of serious/fatal side effects, versus the disease.


Its not just about her...you don't tend to spread the virus after a vaccine...maybe she should get one , might save her gramma.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> The risk of getting a blood clot with the AZ vaccine is the same as getting a blood clot WITHOUT the AZ vaccine


I don't think this is true. There is a very specific kind of highly dangerous blood clot associated with these cases. They are not general blood clots.

I believe that the rate of occurrence of these kinds of blood clots in the normal population is less than among AZ vaccinations.

In any case the experts in Europe are looking at it. I'm not too concerned because we should have more clarity in a matter of weeks.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> Walked into CVS, online check in...5 minutes before vaccine time, nice girl gave her a vaccine card...got poked with Pfizer shot exactly on time, 15 minute sit down wait, now we are home.


Interesting that CVS pharmacies are able to give Pfizer shots. They must have some impressive cold storage. Earlier I thought that only large facilities would be able to give Pfizer shots.


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> and I have moral right to refuse lockdowns


Be careful where you go though.

A 200 person outbreak so far in one Oakville steak house.


----------



## nortel'd

My worry is counties deciding one's Covid-19 passport will depend on the brand of covid-19 vaccine one was inoculated with and the time frame they endured between shots. I will not be at all surprised to find out, New Zealand will allow in only foreigners that were vaccinated with Pfizer at two doses a month apart. The rest will have to arrive with a negative Covid-19 test, undergo 14 days in quarantine, and test negative a second time before they are allowed to travel freely throughout their gorgeous countryside.

Towards the end of the article.....
AstraZeneca, once touted as a pandemic slayer, faces challenges (msn.com)
*Global consequences*
_Amid the turmoil, some countries are abandoning their AstraZeneca purchases. New Zealand this month decided not to use its AstraZeneca order, opting to vaccinate exclusively with Pfizer’s vaccine and donate other manufacturers’ doses to countries that don’t have their own access. South Africa sold its AstraZeneca doses after researchers concluded it provides only “minimal protection” against mild to moderate covid-19 cases caused by the variant discovered in the country._


----------



## Eder

CVS nation wide are offering all 3 shots. I thought I heard that Pfizer has relaxed the -80 storage requirements.
At any rate the USA is running on all cylinders regarding Covid.


----------



## nortel'd

Eder said:


> CVS nation wide are offering all 3 shots. I thought I heard that Pfizer has relaxed the -80 storage requirements.
> At any rate the USA is running on all cylinders regarding Covid.


Damn. The US/Canada border remains closed to non essentials like me and Liverpool, NY has a CVS, so close but so far away.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> I think the concern @sags has is that the AZ shot is showing a very unique, and potent, kind of blood clot. It's not a typical side effect (this kind of blood clot is often fatal). Scientists are trying to figure out the cause. There are a couple of theories but it sounds like they still haven't really figured out the mechanism.
> 
> This most recent article says that the rare blood clots mostly affect women under age 55 though one Danish woman who died from it was 60.
> 
> I do think this is an important issue because at younger ages, COVID is not particularly deadly. Blood clots of this variety are. So this problem DOES change the risk/reward equation.
> 
> I think it totally makes sense to wait and get more information abut what's going on with AZ. The critical thing with any vaccine (any drug) is the risk/reward equation. Today, if you are a 40 year old woman, you have to think extra hard about whether the AZ shot presents good reward vs risk.
> 
> For a healthy 40 year old, COVID is _very_ unlikely to kill them. But the blood clot side effect can. Is it a good idea _for a 40 year old_ to get vaccinated with AZ? I'm not sure.


So what do you suggest? Dump all the Astrazeneca vaccine. It expires on April 1st. Turn down the desperately needed 1.5M doses from the US. Because 5 or 40 or whatever number you want to pick out of 20 million people have something unexplained. Do you want to deny it only to women under age 60. What is your suggestion?

These same side effects are something most of these women already dealt with in birth control pills. I believe the rate of blood clot occurrence was much higher, but most of the women I knew took them every day without concern or problem.

I am not saying Sags is wrong on the observation. I never have. I am saying the benefits outweigh the risks. Right now some vulnerable 60 to 64 year olds are getting vaccinated. They are getting their lives back and getting some very effective protection. Should we put a stop to that?

What is your exact plan?


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> The choice is between getting an AZ vaccination or waiting for one of the other vaccines.
> 
> It isn't a binary choice between COVID and the AZ vaccine, as some people keep repeating.


What are you going to do when they get around to reporting all the unusual occurrences from the Pfizer and Moderna vaccinations, or do you actually think they can vaccinate 7 billion people and not see something weird? I imagine they are already there if someone took the time to look and write a scary article about it. I know quite a few people have had some nasty allergic reactions and most of them are coming from Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. The occurrences are much higher with those then blood clots.

Everyone seems to think we can just put these vaccinations on hold and take all the time we want to check everything out, but we can't. We are running out of time. The population is not going to sit around in their homes doing nothing much longer. Their tolerances have run out. It is time to get off the pot.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Why don't we agree to keep using the AZ vaccine. We can warn people about this possible side effect on the forms they sign when they come for vaccination and let them choose what they want to do. Can we agree on that?

The concerned can sit at home and pretend they are safe and the rest of us can get vaccinated and get on with our lives. What do you think. Sound fair?


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Right now some vulnerable 60 to 64 year olds are getting vaccinated. They are getting their lives back and getting some very effective protection. Should we put a stop to that?


They could easily use AZ for 55+ like some other countries have. That's the population they are targeting right now in Canada so nothing goes to waste. Even if they do it just "out of caution" or to reduce the fears some may have ... it can all be used up.


----------



## Eder

Just take the AZ for now so you don't infect your neighbours...get a different one next year. No biggi.


----------



## sags

Tell the US to keep the AZ vaccines, and send Pfizer vaccines made in Michigan instead.

Thanks Joe......you are the best 🏆 and send 💉 soon as you can swing it. 🏌️‍♂️


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> They could easily use AZ for 55+ like some other countries have. That's the population they are targeting right now in Canada so nothing goes to waste. Even if they do it just "out of caution" or to reduce the fears some may have ... it can all be used up.


Sure, no problem. As long as we are not talking about holds on vaccination or throwing out vaccine, I am probably fine with any idea people have. We all seem to forget that at least 10 pages of this thread were allocated to how slow Canada's vaccination program has been and now we have probably another 10 pages talking about putting part of the program on hold. Complete mystery of the mind, if you ask me.

All this because someone says that someone saw something that looked different in some blood clots on a number of people that is so small compared to the number vaccinated I need to use 5 digits after the decimal place to count it.

JNJ vaccine saw a 50% increase in their blood clots within their vaccinated group. during their trial. A 15 to 10 comparison between vaccinated and placebo. What should we do with that one. Cancel the orders. Does everyone think we have unlimited access to Pfizer and Moderna vaccines?


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> Tell the US to keep the AZ vaccines, and send Pfizer vaccines made in Michigan instead.
> 
> Thanks Joe......you are the best.


Give them a call. Let us know how that goes.


----------



## OptsyEagle

One last comment. J4B mentioned that Covid-19 is not that deadly to younger people. There are a few problems with that comment. The 1st is that Covid-19 is deadly to everyone, the issue is more about the numbers.

I am not going to compare Covid deaths to blood clot deaths but I doubt Covid is going to come up short, when you look at the rate of death from blood clots. I am going to point out a very important point we all need to consider. All *unvaccinated people are going to see their death rates, from covid infection, rise dramatically* when two important events happen, fairly soon. The first is the dropping of our covid precautions that have been protecting you. No more masks. No more distancing. Economy wide open like it should be. Nothing to reduce your dose of infection. The 2nd is when you inevitably are introduced to the new virus. The old virus, with the old death rates is leaving us. The new virus, the UK, the SA, with the proven 64% higher death rate is taking over its turf.

So whatever death rates you think you are grouped into, they have moved up considerably. I just thought you should know that when you are thinking about making a vaccination appointment or waiting.


----------



## Eder

Just for perspective.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> I am not saying Sags is wrong on the observation. I never have. I am saying the benefits outweigh the risks. Right now some vulnerable 60 to 64 year olds are getting vaccinated. They are getting their lives back and getting some very effective protection. Should we put a stop to that?
> 
> What is your exact plan?


I think it's very sensible for people over 60 to get these AZ shots. I never said to stop the AZ shots. I just said that a younger woman might have legitimate concerns.

I don't see any reason for any male to be concerned about the AZ shot. All of these blood clot issues are in females, I think.

Myself, I _would_ take the AZ shot. If I could get it tomorrow, I would.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> Just for perspective.


The world population rapidly grew in the postwar/industrialization period. Most of the bars in this graph are ancient history ... smallpox of the year 1500 where the pop of earth was just 460 million people? C'mon. The world was an incredibly different place back then. Back then, something like HALF of babies died in the first year of their lives and Europeans lived to around age 30. This is ancient history.

The only comparable infectious disease events of modern times are

Spanish Flu at 2.5% of world dying
Third Plague at 1.0% of world dying
AIDS at 0.7% of world dying
Yes, COVID-19 is less deadly and we should all be incredibly thankful. But we're also not done with COVID-19 yet. This thing isn't over yet; we must remain vigilant.


----------



## Money172375

New AZ data suggests even better efficacy.





__





Loading…






www.washingtonpost.com


----------



## MrMatt

MrMatt said:


> The risk of getting a blood clot with the AZ vaccine is the same as getting a blood clot WITHOUT the AZ vaccine. << that's the piece you're omitting from your analysis.





james4beach said:


> I don't think this is true. There is a very specific kind of highly dangerous blood clot associated with these cases. They are not general blood clots.
> 
> I believe that the rate of occurrence of these kinds of blood clots in the normal population is less than among AZ vaccinations.
> 
> In any case the experts in Europe are looking at it. I'm not too concerned because we should have more clarity in a matter of weeks.


Again, I agree that one specific type of blood clot has an increased occurrence.
But, just to repeat the point, the experts, in the articles YOU cite, say there is no overall increase in risk.




james4beach said:


> I just said that a younger woman might have legitimate concerns.


I know. And since there is no scientific data based reason to have these concerns, you've read the articles. It's anti-vaxxer FUD.



It would be just like pointing out thousands have died after taking the other COVID19 vaccines (which is true)
While not pointing out that the overall death rate is pretty much unchanged.
For AZ there are some very rare unusual blood clots, but the overall risk remains unchanged.

Emphasizing the first point (bad outcome) without the second (no increase in overall risk) is anti-vaxxer FUD, and those engaging in it should be ashamed of themselves.


----------



## james4beach

Drumroll... AstraZeneca this morning released the effectiveness numbers from their Phase III clinical trial in US, Peru, Chile (32k people)

79% effective against symptomatic disease. But more importantly, *100% effective in preventing severe disease and hospitalization including in older people*. I believe this means that nobody who took the vaccine died of COVID. (cbc article and astrazeneca news release)

Unlike clinical trials in Europe, this one included plenty of older people, so this result is extremely good news.

Also interesting, 60% of participants in this trial had risk factors for severe COVID (diabetes, obesity, cardiac disease). So note, they took a large number of people with _significant_ risk factors. As I understand this news release, none of the people were even hospitalized.

More details will be clear once the results are officially published. This is very good news though.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I wish they would just label all these vaccines "effective". Due to the multitude of real world variables these clinical trials are not accurate enough to put an exact percentage number on efficacy, that later gets used by of our unknowledgeable citizens who wrongly make very important decisions on which vaccine they should get. The answer is the one in the needle being offered to you right now, that has been proven to be effective and safe. Which it has.

How many times do we need to see these "efficacy" adjustments for people to finally hear what I have been saying for so long, with very little success. All these vaccines are very close to the same. It will take years to determine if one is a few percentages more effective then another and even then there will probably still be too many issues to form that conclusion.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> I wish they would just label all these vaccines "effective".


they did.
However they're also being very transparent with the data.
By sharing all the data, they're hoping to address anecdotal concerns people raise.

Look at the blood clot debate. The reports are clear, and unequivicable that there is no increased risk, and people are cherry picking data to try and argue that there is an increased risk.

It's crazy that 1 in 8 people were refusing a vaccine because of the FUD being pushed by anti-vaxxers.

It's clear that some people just don't accept science.


----------



## sags

Based on the efficacy rates alone, I will wait for the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines to be available.

The AZ efficacy rate of 79% compares to 95% for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.

The whole point of a vaccination is to get the best protection possible.


----------



## andrewf

OptsyEagle said:


> One last comment. J4B mentioned that Covid-19 is not that deadly to younger people. There are a few problems with that comment. The 1st is that Covid-19 is deadly to everyone, the issue is more about the numbers.
> 
> I am not going to compare Covid deaths to blood clot deaths but I doubt Covid is going to come up short, when you look at the rate of death from blood clots. I am going to point out a very important point we all need to consider. All *unvaccinated people are going to see their death rates, from covid infection, rise dramatically* when two important events happen, fairly soon. The first is the dropping of our covid precautions that have been protecting you. No more masks. No more distancing. Economy wide open like it should be. Nothing to reduce your dose of infection. The 2nd is when you inevitably are introduced to the new virus. The old virus, with the old death rates is leaving us. The new virus, the UK, the SA, with the proven 64% higher death rate is taking over its turf.
> 
> So whatever death rates you think you are grouped into, they have moved up considerably. I just thought you should know that when you are thinking about making a vaccination appointment or waiting.


Heard an ER doctor from Hamilton on the radio today. He mentioned that the third wave is different, he's seeing more 40 year olds in hospital, and in hospital and dying.


----------



## Money172375

sags said:


> Based on the efficacy rates alone, I will wait for the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines to be available.
> 
> The AZ efficacy rate of 79% compares to 95% for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.
> 
> The whole point of a vaccination is to get the best protection possible.


One could argue that AZ is the best. 100% effective in preventing severe disease and hospitalization.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Heard an ER doctor from Hamilton on the radio today. He mentioned that the third wave is different, he's seeing more 40 year olds in hospital, and in hospital and dying.


I think that's what people are missing, the new variants are much more dangerous.. too bad that nobody closed the borders to keep them out. 

Also people keep posting about death rates.
COVID19 has a 3% fatality rate in Canada Canada Coronavirus: 933,785 Cases and 22,676 Deaths - Worldometer

The reason our overall rate is so low, is because we've been effective at slowing the spread. But this isn't going to last.
Frustration is growing.
Anti-vaxxers are gaining power, they've even come here., anti-lockdown pressure is growing.

Really I understand the ant-lockdown protests, I don't agree, but with political leaders ignoring health guidelines, why should the rest of us be cooped up?


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> One could argue that AZ is the best. 100% effective in preventing severe disease and hospitalization.


Sample size is too small, short answer is that the vaccines are stunningly effective at saving lives. I think this success here is simply unbelievable.

The JNJ also dramatically reduced hospitalization & death.
"The vaccine was 85% effective in preventing severe COVID-19 disease and 100% effective in preventing COVID-19-related hospitalizations and deaths."









J&J vaccine shown to prevent 85% of severe COVID-19 disease


The vaccine is 66% effective in preventing moderate to severe symptoms.




www.cidrap.umn.edu


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> Just for perspective.
> 
> 
> View attachment 21481


But for modern medicine and herculean social distancing effort is COVID-19 so low. It would be up with HIV if we let it burn through the population naturally. Of course, HIV tends to kill younger (and poorer) people.


----------



## cainvest

sags said:


> The whole point of a vaccination is to get the best protection possible.


I would say the main points are to keep people from dying and to stop the spread of the virus.
A very close second is to keep people out of the hospital and from developing serious short or long term illness.
A distant third point is to reduce symptoms associated with getting the virus.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> But for modern medicine and herculean social distancing effort is COVID-19 so low. It would be up with HIV if we let it burn through the population naturally. Of course, HIV tends to kill younger (and poorer) people.


HIV would be a non issue if people practiced monogamy and didn't inject drugs in unsanitary conditions. It's not like COVID which is spread by simply breathing in close proximity.

Surprise surprise, it's high risk to engage in a high risk lifestyle.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> It's not like COVID which is spread by simply breathing in close proximity.


Isn't that literally how it's spread?

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> MrMatt said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not like COVID which is spread by simply breathing in close proximity.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that literally how it's spread?
> 
> ltr
Click to expand...

Yes, and that's literally what I said. 
I don't understand the point of your question.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Think about this. The old virus had a 2.8 R infection rate, before precautions, and we pretty much got it down to around 1.0 for most of the pandemic. Plus or minus 0.1 etc. We never really had the chance to see the violence it could impose on us, without any precautions being taken. Hence we have people looking at today's infection/hospitalizations/deaths and forming their opinions about risks and whether to vaccinate or not, etc. all with the wrong information.

Today, we have a new virus in town. These variants are anywhere between 30% to 60% more infectious. That means in the same time of exposure, the dose you will take in, will be about that much more. Your immune system will work as fast as it will work. There is no evidence of it speeding up based on your dose of infection, so this new variant issue alone results in a 64% increase in death.

Now we need to remove precautions and take a look at what that does. The chances of infection will accelerate by a ^ 1.8 exponential power also increasing the dose of infection significantly, when we drop our covid precautions.

Now tell me, with that massively larger dose of infection, and exponentially higher chances of it happening, how are the 30 and 40 year olds doing now. I suspect you can simply multiply their older death rates by at least a 100 and possibly more because they will be told they can gather together indoors now. I won't discuss the millions that will get horribly sick and may or may not recover fully.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> Yes, and that's literally what I said.
> I don't understand the point of your question.


Oh sorry, you forgot the comma after the word COVID, so it read differently to me.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> Oh sorry, you forgot the comma after the word COVID, so it read differently to me.
> 
> ltr


Got me, not perfect grammar. 
But if that got you tied up, don't go on facebook. There are many adults who are functionally illiterate, and no, I'm not just picking on ESL. There are 40yr old native english speaking Canadians who can't form a coherent sentence.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> Got me, not perfect grammar.
> But if that got you tied up, don't go on facebook. There are many adults who are functionally illiterate, and no, I'm not just picking on ESL. There are 40yr old native english speaking Canadians who can't form a coherent sentence.


As a hobby, I proofread some independent author's manuscripts. 

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

It's all going to be OK now. We are saved. The pandemic should soon be over. Krispy Kreme has saved us. They are going to give away a free donut for anyone who shows a valid vaccination certificate.









COVID vaccine motivation: Krispy Kreme giving away free donuts for showing vaccination card through end of 2021


Get free donuts through the end of 2021 at Krispy Kreme with your COVID-19 vaccination card. No purchase is required to get the freebie.



www.usatoday.com





That should do it. The pandemic should be over soon. Everyone will now vaccinate. Herd immunity will be obtained. Maybe a little increase in diabetes. Whew, I was worried there for a while. I thought it would never end. lol


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> It's all going to be OK now. We are saved. The pandemic should soon be over. Krispy Kreme has saved us. They are going to give away a free donut for anyone who shows a valid vaccination certificate.
> 
> That should do it. The pandemic should be over soon. I was worried there for a while. lol


Now imagine if they gave vaccine shots at Tim Hortons ... we'd have 50% canada done in a week.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> The reason our overall rate is so low, is because we've been effective at slowing the spread. But this isn't going to last.
> Frustration is growing.


Very good point. All of us have been awfully careful in the last 12 months, and this is the reason there are so few fatalities.

Staying away from people, and wearing masks, works. Remember that this is why we also had NO influenza.

If everything opens up prematurely and everyone starts mixing again, I have no doubt that the "COVID death rate" will rise significantly.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Very good point. All of us have been awfully careful in the last 12 months, and this is the reason there are so few fatalities.
> 
> Staying away from people, and wearing masks, works. Remember that this is why we also had NO influenza.
> 
> If everything opens up prematurely and everyone starts mixing again, I have no doubt that the "COVID death rate" will rise significantly.


Also washing hands, and the most successful flu vaccination program in recent history.

Many have been careful, some have not. I know some really crazy people out there.
I even knew (second/third hand) of COVID19 parties.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Based on the efficacy rates alone, I will wait for the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines to be available.
> 
> The AZ efficacy rate of 79% compares to 95% for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.
> 
> The whole point of a vaccination is to get the best protection possible.


sags, I don't think you are interpreting this properly. Each of these drugs had a different kind of clinical trial, with different mixes of people (sometimes including elderly, other times not) including different ethnic groups, sometimes in different countries and in the presence of different variants.

The experts point out that the effectiveness rates CANNOT be directly compared. You can't take these numbers too literally and they shouldn't be taken like that because the clinical trials were performed under different conditions.

The AZ vaccine seems to offer *very* strong protection. I was a bit skeptical until the Phase III data was released this morning, but now I'm convinced... this is a very effective vaccine.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> sags, I don't think you are interpreting this properly.


That's an understatement.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> If everything opens up prematurely and everyone starts mixing again, I have no doubt that the "COVID death rate" will rise significantly.


Actually it shouldn't rise significantly anymore, well, in a month or two. I say this because many of the higher risk people will have been vaccinated by that time.

We're already seeing a rise in cases here even with just a slight loosening of restrictons.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Sags appears to only be able to focus on one number at a time and tends to lose sight of the bigger picture, that is required to truly understand what that number might actually be implying. I and others have tried to help him along but we all have our limits. He seems bent on coming to the conclusions he does and when someone explains to him why they are not exactly correct he simply ignores it and repeats his message over and over again.

I don't understand it but just be careful with his posts. I like sags but he needs to spend more time addressing dissent and not just redistributing opinions that have been argued to be wrong in hopes of wearing everyone down and somehow that, in itself, making him right. It is dangerous for him as well.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Actually it shouldn't rise significantly anymore, well, in a month or two. I say this because many of the higher risk people will have been vaccinated by that time.
> 
> We're already seeing a rise in cases here even with just a slight loosening of restrictons.


Matters when we start getting our shots.

Unfortunately the US is about to approve AZ, which means we won't get those, and the EU is looking at banning export, so we can't get them from there.

Apparently that means we have to hope that India and China play nicely and share with us.


----------



## sags

Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are coming this week.

See...no need to panic and rush into the AZ vaccine.

I should have my Pfizer shot in a couple of weeks.

Then I will be set up for the Pfizer booster shot when it is available.

_Nearly *1.2 million doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine* are set to arrive this week, alongside *846,000 shots of the product developed by Moderna.*

Figures from the Public Health Agency of Canada suggest the pace set over the next seven days will mark the start of a sustained delivery ramp-up, with *Pfizer-BioNTech expected to continue providing weekly shipments of at least a million doses for the foreseeable future.*_









Canada expects major surge in COVID-19 vaccine deliveries this week - National | Globalnews.ca


Figures from the Public Health Agency of Canada suggest the pace set over the next 7 days will mark the start of a sustained delivery ramp-up.




globalnews.ca


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Matters when we start getting our shots.


They're rolling out every day here and hopefully the most vulnerable will be done in a months time.


----------



## cainvest

sags said:


> See...no need to panic and rush into the AZ vaccine.


No panic required, play it safe until you get your shot. 

If they called me tomorrow with an AZ shot available I'd be in my car in minutes to get it.


----------



## sags

Consider though.....

The AZ doesn't protect against the SA variant (10% protection), and the others are only about 30% effective.

So the booster shots are going to be very important. Is AZ working on a booster shot for the variants ?

I am thinking in a few months everyone will be talking about booster shots.


----------



## Eder

MrMatt said:


> Matters when we start getting our shots.
> 
> Unfortunately the US is about to approve AZ, which means we won't get those, and the EU is looking at banning export, so we can't get them from there.


The US should be finished vaccinating in about 6 weeks...hopefully Sockman doesn't piss off Uncle Biden before then and Canada should be awash in vaccines.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> Consider though.....
> 
> The AZ doesn't protect against the SA variant (10% protection), and the others are only about 30% effective.
> 
> So the booster shots are going to be very important. Is AZ working on a booster shot for the variants ?
> 
> I am thinking in a few months everyone will be talking about booster shots.


There you go again. None of the vaccines prevent infection. They all prevent death against all variants.

Again, you need to see the larger picture and quit focusing on one number at a time. It will lead you astray.


----------



## sags

It looks like AZ has developed a booster shot.









Beating the Covid-19 crisis: the role of vaccine boosters


Covid-19 vaccine boosters can improve the immune response against the original virus, as well as help to tackle emerging viral variants.




www.pharmaceutical-technology.com


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Consider though.....
> 
> The AZ doesn't protect against the SA variant (10% protection), and the others are only about 30% effective.
> 
> So the booster shots are going to be very important. Is AZ working on a booster shot for the variants ?
> 
> I am thinking in a few months everyone will be talking about booster shots.


Which is why we should have closed the borders, it's been a year, Trudeau still hasn't closed them.

yet a bunch of nitwits are willing to re-elect him.


----------



## sags

Good news ahead for this year.

Better vaccines are coming.

_The current crop of experimental vaccines use alternative technologies and delivery systems, and include more single-shot inoculations, and vaccines that are administered orally, via a nasal spray, and through the skin using a type of patch. These could bring immunizations that are better suited to specific groups, such as pregnant women, according to Swaminathan. _









Better Covid Vaccines Are Coming, WHO’s Chief Scientist Says


New Covid-19 vaccines, including ones that don’t require needles and can be stored at room temperature, may be ready for use later this year or next year, the World Health Organization’s top scientist said.




www.bloomberg.com


----------



## OptsyEagle

Let me talk a little about booster shots. To understand the issue here you need to understand evolution. I won't go into all of Darwin's theories but most of us know that the strongest tend to survive and the weakest die off. With a virus, 3 months of evolutions looks like about 10,000 years of human evolution. What is the same however is the strongest survive and the weakest die off.

The other point you need to know is that the world a virus lives in, is us. It's world is not earth or Texas or any place like that. It is us. It lives in us. It's only natural predator is our immune system. So to survive it needs to stay alive in us. Unless we can get a large part (probably > 85%) of our world population vaccinated very quickly (in a year at the latest) this virus will not go away and therefore will mutate continuously. It happens more frequently then a year, but a year should be long enough for a virus mutation to start living longer in vaccinated people...and if that happens, we will get sick. The strongest virus will always be the one we will be dealing with at any point in time. That is evolution.

So we have already seen this. We created 4 kick @ss vaccines to help us with the original virus and now some new ones are causing a lower efficacy in ALL THE VACCINES and more people are getting sick. But the main point is that they are not dying.

We can come up with a booster but unless we do it really quickly (and maybe they will) and we get it to around 85% of the world very quickly, I have no doubt this virus will mutate again, and again, and again. People will get sick but most likely they will not die, at least not many I hope. But without vaccination all bets are off.

Vaccine's don't neutralize the virus. We do. Vaccine's only improve our ability to do that and since most people, without vaccination don't actually die from Covid-19, you should be able to see that no one actually needs 95% efficacy to beat this thing. 10% or 20% will keep most of us above ground and most vaccines are doing better then that against all variants. We have vaccinated millions of people in the world. Has anyone noticed many of them being rushed to hospital and dying...using any vaccine...against any variant?


----------



## sags

I predicted long ago that vaccines would be developed quickly, due to the money thrown at the problem.

It just proves that scientists can do awesome things when properly funded.

Hopefully the lesson learned is to provide adequate funding for cures of diseases that have been around far too long.


----------



## sags

We are one virus variant away from total extinction at any given time.

Scientists fear what new viruses and bacteria that climate change will spawn.

What is buried in the Arctic tundra that is being released as it thaws out ?

We know there is methane gas leaking now. We know other things are being found.

Is it possible there are ancient pathogens buried there, waiting to be released and that would be devastating to humankind ?

Yes, it is possible. Nobody knows.......but scientists worry about such possibilities.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Hopefully the lesson learned is to provide adequate funding for cures of diseases that have been around far too long.


Not enough money, and lots of dieseases aren't worth fixing.


----------



## cainvest

sags said:


> Consider though.....
> 
> The AZ doesn't protect against the SA variant (10% protection), and the others are only about 30% effective.


Sure it does and an excellent job apparently!
From the same study you got the 10% from ...

*also noted there were no cases of hospitalization due to severe COVID-19*


----------



## james4beach

Just a couple minutes ago, Dr. Bonnie Henry (BC) commented on the new AstraZeneca phase III results.

She says that this was a better clinical trial than the earlier one, and the results look great. Similar effectiveness to the Pfizer and Moderna shots; protection from serious illness and death is extremely good for all 3.

@sags you really should try to get any of these 3 shots, ASAP. Whichever is available. They are all excellent. If I was offered any of them (Pfizer, Moderna, AZ) tomorrow, I would take it.


----------



## sags

Better they give it to young people and those who are concerned with going out and about.

I am content to stay home and wait for the Pfizer.

Hopefully they will set up drive thru injections here by then.

They are setting one up at Canada's Wonderland already.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Better they give it to young people and those who are concerned with going out and about.
> 
> I am content to stay home and wait for the Pfizer.


I understand this reasoning sags, but the risk of death from Covid increases tremendously with age. Keep in mind the danger of waiting if you are over age 60 and especially if you're over 70.

Waiting is dangerous, and you might be delaying it for no reason. The 3 vaccines are equally effective in protecting from hospitalization & death.

IMO there is nothing to justify unnecessary waiting or delay of getting the shot.


----------



## Money172375

sags said:


> Better they give it to young people and those who are concerned with going out and about.
> 
> I am content to stay home and wait for the Pfizer.
> 
> Hopefully they will set up drive thru injections here by then.
> 
> They are setting one up at Canada's Wonderland already.


How are you going to determine which vaccine is being used at any particular clinic? What province are you in?


----------



## Eder

Seems the vaccines Alberta has given are doing their job...90% of Covid patients in ICU are below the age of 65.

Take any vaccine offered ASAP ...


----------



## sags

Money172375 said:


> How are you going to determine which vaccine is being used at any particular clinic? What province are you in?


In Ontario.

It isn't difficult to find out. Just go on the local Reddit website and ask people.


----------



## sags

Ontario says the AZ vaccine was only being given to people aged 60-64 at pharmacies, doctor offices and walk in clinics. Now they can open it up to 60 plus when they get the vaccine.

For some reason the AZ shot locations had 6,000 open appointments as of today.

They will be ramping up the Pfizer and Moderna at the main vaccination center.

It is the 75 and older group now and after that......?


----------



## Money172375

sags said:


> Ontario says the AZ vaccine is only being given to people aged 60-64 and at pharmacies, doctor offices and walk in clinics. It sounds like they don't have a lot of doses.


I believe it’s 60+ now......as of today









COVID-19 pharmacy vaccine locations


Find your closest pharmacy to get the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine if you are age 60 to 64.




covid-19.ontario.ca


----------



## Money172375

sags said:


> In Ontario.
> 
> It isn't difficult to find out. Just go on the local Reddit website and ask people.


I’m trying to find what they’re using at UTM in Mississauga


----------



## sags

Try the local Mississauga Reddit site. Somebody should know there.





__





r/mississauga


r/mississauga: Welcome to Mississauga!




www.reddit.com


----------



## agent99

cainvest said:


> Sure it does and an excellent job apparently!
> From the same study you got the 10% from ...
> 
> *also noted there were no cases of hospitalization due to severe COVID-19*


Only number I have seen for A-Z vs SA variant is 10%. Please post link if you have different number.









AstraZeneca vaccine doesn't prevent B1351 COVID in early trial


The trial wasn't able to assess impact against severe disease because of the relatively young age of participants.




www.cidrap.umn.edu









__





AstraZeneca, once touted as a pandemic slayer, faces challenges






www.msn.com





These things keep changing, but that WP article is quite recent.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Better they give it to young people and those who are concerned with going out and about.
> 
> I am content to stay home and wait for the Pfizer.
> 
> Hopefully they will set up drive thru injections here by then.
> 
> They are setting one up at Canada's Wonderland already.


I support your right to decide which vaccine you are willing to take.

However I think you're also an excellent case study on what part of the problem is.
You've got access to all the information, you have had several people tell you, citing proper medical research.
Yet for some bizarre reason you cling to the believe that the Pfizer vaccine is somehow "better'

Interestingly 6 people died during the Pfizer study in the US.








Fact check: Clarifying claims around Pfizer vaccine deaths and side effects


Social media users have been sharing a post that makes several claims of serious negative health effects from the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine, including that 6 people died during late-stage trials. These claims are partly false. Six people did die during the Pfizer-BioNTech...




www.reuters.com





I'm not aware of any deaths in the similarly sized AZ trial in the US.

Again, you are entitled to your opinion. I think it is clearly unfounded and wrong, but I believe in a free society you should be allowed to make the wrong choice.
I just hope that you are the only one that faces the consequences of your decision. 


Yes I'm harsh, but I think that sags and his anti-vaxxer promotion is harmful and dangerous. Fortunately he's so obviously wrong almost everyone here seems to see right through it.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Which is why we should have closed the borders, it's been a year, Trudeau still hasn't closed them.
> 
> yet a bunch of nitwits are willing to re-elect him.


There's only so much more he can do to close borders. Canadians are allowed to enter and leave, by right.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Not enough money, and lots of dieseases aren't worth fixing.


I think the cost and time of developing vaccines is going to fall with technology like mRNA vaccines. We are lucky, really, that this technology came along at the time it did. I know not all the COVID-19 vaccines use mRNA approach, so we are doubly lucky that COVID-19 was amenable to more traditional vaccines. We never developed a vaccine to any other coronaviruses, even when we had scares with SARS and MERS.


----------



## cainvest

agent99 said:


> Only number I have seen for A-Z vs SA variant is 10%. Please post link if you have different number.


That's the correct number I saw, 10%. Just wanted to state there were no cases of hospitalization due to severe COVID-19 in that study.


----------



## sags

The efficacy of the vaccines against the variants will continue to become a greater issue.

Can a person who received an AZ vaccine get a Pfizer of Moderna vaccination later if need be ?

They are different vaccines, but all of them create a strong immune response and a major problem with the COVID is too much of an immune response.

I guess the question is.......do mutliple vaccinations compound the immune response ?


----------



## cainvest

sags said:


> I guess the question is.......do mutliple vaccinations compound the immune response ?


Likely not a valid concern as you'll not be able (at least for a long time) to get vaccinated more than once. However, if new shots/formulas become available that target the variants, those may be given out to the already vaccinated.


----------



## agent99

agent99 said:


> You are right:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kingston-area public health to delay second COVID-19 doses for some - Kingston | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The move to delay second doses is being made across Ontario in order to prioritize first doses for a larger number of people to protect against the COVID-19 variants of concern.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We will likely get that call


Just got the email - 2nd dose cancelled. Could be scheduled up to 16 weeks later. Local health unit say they are just following what Toronto have dictated.

Kind of poor really. Pfizer develop a good vaccine and provide instructions on how it should be used. But others not involved in the development or original trials decide to go their own way.

No tests done that I have read about determining efficacy with 16 weeks between doses. Like it or not, we will be part of the trial.

This vaccine was approved by Health Canada - This based on the initial Phase III trial in which the 2nd dose was administered 21 days after the first and teh 95% efficacy determined. I see nothing on the Health Canada site about an allowed change in the administration schedule.

More here: Seems provinces and NACI are winging it....




__





An updated look at the 16-week window between doses of vaccines in BC for COVID-19 | British Columbia Medical Journal


In accordance with new recommendations from the National Advisory Committee on Immunization, British Columbia has extended the interval between first and second doses up to 16 weeks for all currently approved COVID-19 vaccines in Canada.[1] In light of this change—developed to maximize the...




bcmj.org


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> You published article from December 7 LOL.
> In any case, the numbers I published show the trend and it's more reliable that media's hysteria


A possible fourth wave?

goes To show how far we are away from normal. The US has inoculated a large portion of their population and a fourth wave is possible. Vaccines are making everyone, even those who haven’t been vaccinated, take more risks.

Even with 3 vaccines now, CDC head warns of possible 4th COVID surge


----------



## Money172375

I’m really looking forward to the vaccine numbers this week and next. By my math, Ontario needs to almost triple their vaccine deployment in order to get everyone a shot by Canada Day. we need to start hitting 100,000 shots a day soon.


----------



## like_to_retire

agent99 said:


> Kind of poor really. Pfizer develop a good vaccine and provide instructions on how it should be used. But others not involved in the development or original trials decide to go their own way.


Agreed, and when they actual did a trial in the UK to test cancer patients after the UK government decided to extend the gap between first and second jabs from three to 12 weeks they found Cancer patients are much less protected.

"_In trials of the Pfizer vaccine, two doses were given three weeks apart and although a longer gap between doses works for healthy individuals, the researchers say cancer patients do not respond in the same way._".

And this is the first real world study on the longer gap for the second dose. Maybe if they did other studies the findings would be the same. Who knows? 

The point is, as agent99 points out, you don't just arbitrarily extend the time to the second dose that contradicts the manufacturer's recommendations.

So instead of properly vaccinating a portion of the most vulnerable population, they decide to run an experiment that they have little idea what the result will be.

ltr


----------



## cainvest

like_to_retire said:


> The point is, as agent99 points out, you don't just arbitrarily extend the time to the second dose that contradicts the manufacturer's recommendations.


I pretty sure it's not arbitrary. If the data does show more lives will be saved and less serious short/long term negative outcomes will occur by going this route, then it's the right choice.


----------



## like_to_retire

cainvest said:


> I pretty sure it's not arbitrary. If the data does show more lives will be saved and less serious short/long term negative outcomes will occur by going this route, then it's the right choice.


No, there's no data, and they haven't done any tests on extending past the manufacturer's recommendations. As I pointed out, the UK test was the first, and you can see the result. We're all about to be Guinea pigs.

ltr


----------



## cainvest

like_to_retire said:


> No, there's no data, and they haven't done any tests on extending past the manufacturer's recommendations.


Just did a quick search on pfizer, appears to be some data from an Israel test on single shot protection. No time to dig into it right now though ...


----------



## newfoundlander61

It wouldn't surprise me if one of any of the vaccines will be enough once more real world data becomes available.


----------



## cainvest

Here's a little more data on single shots ... COVID-19 Vaccine Efficacy After First Dose: Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca - Infectious Disease Advisor


----------



## agent99

cainvest said:


> Here's a little more data on single shots ... COVID-19 Vaccine Efficacy After First Dose: Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca - Infectious Disease Advisor


This describes what some of us, like it or not, now have to be part of:

- There is limited data on an alternative vaccine schedule and duration of protection after the first dose.

- “The decision to implement alternative dosing regimens resides with health author_itie_s,” they state.

- Pfizer’s representatives reiterate the importance of conducting surveillance on implemented alternative dosing schedules to ensure vaccines provide the most optimal protection.

The longer period between doses may very well be OK, but no testing has been done to validate that.


----------



## james4beach

For those of you thinking everyone in the US is able to get vaccinated easily... not so. It varies by state.

I have an older relative in the US (she's certainly high risk) who hasn't been able to get vaccinated yet. Part of it is a logistical problem. The state run clinics are very far from her location, and she doesn't have a way to get there, without a long taxi ride.

More local vaccination sites (drug stores) are completely booked up. I checked online and *every* pharmacy in the state is completely booked, and has no spots available.

I might have to start helping her check & grab spots. If any of you like @Eder have tips on how to get vaccinated in the US, please let me know because I'd like to help out this relative. I presume that CVS and Walgreens are the place to look? Do you just keep checking the web site every day until a slot opens up?


----------



## Eder

I used the CVS site...it asked for my zip code then scheduled my wife a shot the next morning. You didn't mention the state she resides.
Why not ship her some cash for long taxi/Uber rides?


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> I used the CVS site...it asked for my zip code then scheduled my wife a shot the next morning. You didn't mention the state she resides.
> Why not ship her some cash for long taxi/Uber rides?


She's in MA ... thanks, I'll try CVS again. Looking at it right now, every pharmacy in the state shows 'fully booked'

I'm happy to send her some money


----------



## james4beach

I'd love to see a Canadian equivalent of this. Perhaps free Timbits?









Free doughnuts at Krispy Kreme (US)


Apparently, Krispy Kreme is giving a free Original Glazed doughnut every day for the rest of this year, for anyone vaccinated for COVID-19 and who has an American COVID-19 vaccination card (image) For those who might not be aware, these are good doughnuts! Those of you residing in the US are...




www.canadianmoneyforum.com


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Here's a little more data on single shots ... COVID-19 Vaccine Efficacy After First Dose: Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca - Infectious Disease Advisor


Yeah, that result of 92.6% efficacy with one dose of Pfizer vaccine, only incorporated a total of 7 days of trial data. All they had, to determine that, was the time between 14 days after the 1st dose, where the immune response was said to be fully kicked in and 21 days after the 1st dose, when they gave everyone in their trials their 2nd dose and all observation on it came to an end.

There is not doubt this is a Canadian experiment based on probably not enough data. I am all for it, however, for 3 reasons, with the 1st the most important:

1) We do have data on how many "vulnerable" Canadians will be put at risk and probably die, by forcing them to wait unvaccinated, while we take the very limited amount of vaccine we actually have AND take the time to vaccinate people a 2nd time.
2) Pfizer did virtually no experiments on when the 2nd dose should be provided. They COULD NOT have done the 2nd dose any sooner, since they had to wait 14 days for the 1st shot to complete its work. All they did was poke them the 2nd time, as soon as they could, because that ensured the trials were over as soon as they could. This provided vaccine quicker and their payday quicker. I will let others decide on their motivation but it WAS NOT A SCIENTIFIC REASON to use 3 weeks as the date for the 2nd dose.
3) I actually believe, from significant amounts of very logical theory and some actual work done by AstraZeneca that LATER WILL BE BETTER for these Pfizer and Moderna vaccinated people. They should end up with much longer protection.

That said, the only thing we actually know for sure is that 3 weeks provides very good protection for at least 1 year.
I will repeat how I always end this discussion. I am really glad I did not have to be the guy to make such an important decision.


----------



## OptsyEagle

So Dr. John is saying that Denmark is changing their recommendation on "how to" vaccinate people. This is above my paygrade so I will just state the jest of it. The Danish medical groups are theorizing that these* blood clots we have seen are probably coming from the vaccination technique* more then from the vaccine itself.

They believe that when someone is vaccinated, the person doing it should "aspirate" before injection of the vaccine. Aspirating is a method where they jab you and then slowly pull back a little on the plunger to confirm that no blood comes in. This ensures that you get a intramuscular vaccination (the right way) as opposed to an intravascular vaccination (the wrong way). If blood comes into the needle, they just pull it back out and poke another spot. It appears most clinics etc., don't do this because it is very rare that a large blood vessel is found in that muscle area.

They believe that in the rare occurrence that a blood vessel is hit, with someone, upon vaccination, that it is this error in technique that may be the reason for the blood clots we have seen. It is only a theory but it appears the Danish are adjusting their vaccination methods accordingly. They probably figure, better to be safe then sorry. I guess it creates a little more pain in the jab area with this technique, but not much more.






My concern with this theory is where are the blood clots from the other vaccines. So perhaps one needs the Astrazeneca AND the wrong vaccination technique. I don't know. Just passing on the info as I get it. Interesting all the same.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> My concern with this theory is where are the blood clots from the other vaccines. So perhaps one needs the Astrazeneca AND the wrong vaccination technique. I don't know. Just passing on the info as I get it. Interesting all the same.


I think part of this is that clotting is one of the big problems with COVID19.

Some think that the immune response to COVID19 causes clotting, not the actual Coronavirus.


It would seem logical that if an immune response is stimulated, by COVID19, or by the vaccine, you could get a similar result.
This isn't unexpected, people often get a subdued immune response to traditional vaccines, in this case that response might end up being significant (at the rate of a few per million)











Autoimmune antibodies may cause blood clots in COVID-19


SARS-CoV-2 seems to trigger the production of clot-causing antibodies, which may help explain the blood clots that often occur in people with COVID-19.




www.medicalnewstoday.com


----------



## sags

The problem is the AZ virus was causing both........blood clots and abnormal bleeding at the same time.

That is what was baffling to the doctors.


----------



## sags

The doctors in Europe said they have discovered the link between AZ vaccines and the brain clots.

They identified something in the chemical makeup of the vaccine that is causing the reaction.

They don't know yet how to identify people who would be prone to developing those symptoms.


----------



## sags

It looks like a good "uptake" of the AZ vaccine, as pharmacies have shortages.









Kingston pharmacies bombarded with calls after province expands AstraZeneca vaccine rollout


Almost two weeks after Kingston-area pharmacies received the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine in a roll-out pilot project, pharmacists say supply is running low.



ottawa.ctvnews.ca


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The problem is the AZ virus was causing both........blood clots and abnormal bleeding at the same time.
> 
> That is what was baffling to the doctors.


Nope

There is no "AZ virus"
A causal link to the vaccine has not been reported.

It has been reported that the immune system response to COVID19 is causing the abnormal clots.








New Cause of COVID-19 Blood Clots Identified


A new study reveals the COVID-19 virus triggers production of autoantibodies circulating through the blood, causing blood coagulation and clots in people hospitalized with the disease.




labblog.uofmhealth.org





It is very logical that if the immune system would cause clots in reaction to COVID19, it could also cause clots in reaction to a COVID19 vaccine. Remember, vaccines are intended to create an immune response to the target diesease.



oh and your poorly phrased response doesn't have any supporting links.
I think part of the problem is you are unwilling/unable to accurately summarize the articles, so you end up making confusing if not outright wrong statements.
Since you didn't link to a source, we're actually unable to even guess what you're trying to say.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> It looks like a good "uptake" of the AZ vaccine, as pharmacies have shortages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kingston pharmacies bombarded with calls after province expands AstraZeneca vaccine rollout
> 
> 
> Almost two weeks after Kingston-area pharmacies received the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine in a roll-out pilot project, pharmacists say supply is running low.
> 
> 
> 
> ottawa.ctvnews.ca


We've had shortages of COVID19 continuously. This isn't news.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> There is not doubt this is a Canadian experiment based on probably not enough data. I am all for it, however, for 3 reasons, with the 1st the most important:
> .......


I can't agree with you on this and I'm still amazed that they would just arbitrarily extend the time to the second dose if it contradicts the manufacturer's recommendations such that instead of properly vaccinating a portion of the most vulnerable population, they decide to run an experiment that they have little idea what the result will be.

Yesterday I read where Canada’s Chief Science Adviser Dr. Mona Nemer told CTV News Channel’s Power Play that *studies have shown that extending the interval between doses has had a negative effect on their efficacy, particularly in seniors*.

Dr. Mona Nemer is the top scientist in Canada, appointed by Trudeau, and she is recommending against it. She also says:
"_Nemer said both Health Canada and the NACI will also have access to the updated findings, meaning a new recommendation could be on the way.
“I’m sure they’re following this and they may well be looking at perhaps modulating the recommendation as we go,” she said.
“As data emerges about what it takes to protect [seniors and immune-compromised people], we need to be reviewing what we’re doing.”_"

I was also reading about the first real world trial in the UK to test cancer patients after the UK government decided to extend the gap between the first and second vaccines from three to 12 weeks. The results were that the cancer patients are much less protected.

_"In trials of the Pfizer vaccine, two doses were given three weeks apart and although a longer gap between doses works for healthy individuals, the researchers say cancer patients do not respond in the same way."_

And this is the first real world study on the longer gap for the second dose. Maybe if they did other studies the findings would be the same. Who knows?

The only reason I can see to extend the time between doses is to cover up the complete mess the Liberals made of procuring vaccines.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> The only reason I can see to extend the time between doses is to cover up the complete mess the Liberals made of procuring vaccines.


I agree.
I'm actually mixed on the provinces here, I think they'd love to go and put it to the Feds, but they know that no matter how incompetent they are, they will win an election this summer.
Despite the theoretical independance of the different levels of government, the Federal government has way too much control in areas of provincial responsibility.


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> I can't agree with you on this and I'm still amazed that they would just arbitrarily extend the time to the second dose if it contradicts the manufacturer's recommendations such that instead of properly vaccinating a portion of the most vulnerable population, they decide to run an experiment that they have little idea what the result will be.
> 
> Yesterday I read where Canada’s Chief Science Adviser Dr. Mona Nemer told CTV News Channel’s Power Play that *studies have shown that extending the interval between doses has had a negative effect on their efficacy, particularly in seniors*.
> 
> Dr. Mona Nemer is the top scientist in Canada, appointed by Trudeau, and she is recommending against it. She also says:
> "_Nemer said both Health Canada and the NACI will also have access to the updated findings, meaning a new recommendation could be on the way.
> “I’m sure they’re following this and they may well be looking at perhaps modulating the recommendation as we go,” she said.
> “As data emerges about what it takes to protect [seniors and immune-compromised people], we need to be reviewing what we’re doing.”_"
> 
> I was also reading about the first real world trial in the UK to test cancer patients after the UK government decided to extend the gap between the first and second vaccines from three to 12 weeks. The results were that the cancer patients are much less protected.
> 
> _"In trials of the Pfizer vaccine, two doses were given three weeks apart and although a longer gap between doses works for healthy individuals, the researchers say cancer patients do not respond in the same way."_
> 
> And this is the first real world study on the longer gap for the second dose. Maybe if they did other studies the findings would be the same. Who knows?
> 
> The only reason I can see to extend the time between doses is to cover up the complete mess the Liberals made of procuring vaccines.
> 
> ltr


What did the Science Advisor say about letting all the vulnerable people die who are waiting for the other people to get their 2nd shots? Who's shot is it. The person who might die or the person we know will die? 

That's is the question missing in all these reports. I just don't think the person who might die is the one that should get it.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> What did the Science Advisor say about letting all the vulnerable people die who are waiting for the other people to get their 2nd shots? Who's shot is it. The person who might die or the person we know will die?


The people who are waiting for the other people to get their 2nd shots are young and not even close as vulnerable to death as the aged who have to delay getting the second shot that would make them fully vaccinated.

ltr


----------



## Retired Peasant

Actually I recall her referring to seniors AND other vulnerable people.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> What did the Science Advisor say about letting all the vulnerable people die who are waiting for the other people to get their 2nd shots? Who's shot is it. The person who might die or the person we know will die?
> 
> That's is the question missing in all these reports. I just don't think the person who might die is the one that should get it.


From the article this quote is important.

“I’m not aware of data showing that there is efficacy beyond two months of the first dose,” she said. “In the past few weeks, we’ve seen different studies come out showing that the response to the first dose of the vaccine in the people who are elderly, in the people who are immuno-compromised is actually not that good and it wanes quite rapidly.”

The suggestion is that if you wait too long between doses, you don't get immunity.
Lets say we the immunity lasts 2 months, and we space doses by 4 months. We basically have these vulnerable groups spending half the time not immunized.

Right now I think Ontario is around 10% with 1 dose, the risk is that if we don't get them their second dose soon, they might go back to being effectively unvaccinated. (that is my understanding of the article)

We don't have enough vaccine to get everyone 1 dose in within 6 weeks (ie 2 months - 2week COVID19 incubation period).
Since we can't do that I'd rather get a small but increasing population fully vaccinated, in accordance with the experts and the efficacy data we have.

I think it is completely irresponsible to go off making up untested and unapproved vaccine schedules, and it's even more irresponsible now that we have data that using unapproved vaccination schedules might not actually be effective at providing an immunity.

I'm not actually too concerned about this long term.
We can easily build enough vaccine manufacturing capacity to make enough to regularly get a shot. It's just this lauch period where we don't have the ability to make billions of doses in a month or two.


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> The people who are waiting for the other people to get their 2nd shots are young and not even close as vulnerable to death as the aged who have to delay getting the second shot that would make them fully vaccinated.
> 
> ltr


That is completely wrong. Most likely it would have been you waiting, probably until May, to even hope to see your first shot.

Remember 3 weeks was the time that Pfizer gave us. With the amount of vaccine we had and only 3 weeks to get it to the number of vulnerable people, we had absolutely no hope of vaccinating all those people before the 2nd shot was required for the few who were lucky to be in the front of the line. Everyone that got that first shot mistakenly thinks they would have had no hiccup if we went with Pfizer's recommendation. That is absolutely wrong thinking. Most would have been delayed months.

As I said, if the choice is to see a person, with one vaccine shot come in contact with this virus or a person with none come in contact with this virus, my choice has to be "give them all one shot". Without that the vulnerable have little hope. With it they have some hope.

Now we have this to deal with, which means everyone may be waiting even longer. The EU is discussing putting a ban on vaccine shipments for 6 weeks. Anyone want to guess where we get a lot of our vaccine from?









EU moves toward six-week vaccine export cut


The controversial proposal says EU should block exports that ‘pose a threat’ to vaccine supplies in the bloc.




www.politico.eu


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> As I said, if the choice is to see a person, with one vaccine shot come in contact with this virus or a person with none come in contact with this virus, my choice has to be "give them all one shot". Without that they have little hope.


I agree, assuming that the "one shot" would still have an impact at the time of exposure.
The above research suggested that "one shot" protection only lasts 2 months in some cases.

Lets say Priority person gets a shot, 2 months later they have lost their immunity, should they get a second shot, or should it go to a new person who is lower priority?
I think it's clear it should go to the priority person, who has no immunity.

Since we're not going to have enough to give everyone their shot until this summer, should give that priority person 4 shots at 2 month intervals(Jan, March, May July), or just get them their first 2 shots and done as soon as possible?


I see clear concerns, and benefits to both.

I think the decision should be made on the actual known science.Guessing makes sense when you have no data, but we now have the data that shows an extended vaccination interval is bad idea.

I don't have all the knowledge, but it seems clear that the medical expert opinion is to administer the vaccines as per the approved schedule.

However the political experts might have a different opinion.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Look. There is no right answer. Sometimes big decisions have to be made on insufficient information.

I have given my opinion on what I would do. Is that exactly what our leaders are doing, what I would do. No. It seems the provinces took the 4 month delay and decided to use it as concrete science. I would have stopped at age 65 with the 1st dose and then gave those same people their 2nd dose, BEFORE moving on to the younger crowd. I would not have wasted vaccine on a 25 year old working at Loblaws, and that type of thing, but that is me.

Everyone will have an opinion. From what I have seen most of them struggle to remove personal bias from those opinions, but in any case, they will rarely be exactly the same and almost all of them tend to miss the bigger picture on all the issues involved. 

There is more to this issue, especially in Canada, then what Pfizer would like us to do.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Look. There is no right answer. Sometimes big decisions have to be made on insufficient information.


yes


> I have given my opinion on what I would do. Is that exactly what our leaders are doing, what I would do. No. It seems the provinces took the 4 month delay and decided to use it as concrete science. I would have stopped at age 65 with the 1st dose and then gave those same people their 2nd dose, BEFORE moving on to the younger crowd.


I would have well, and that's what the science has been all along.



> I would not have wasted vaccine on a 25 year old working at Loblaws, and that type of thing, but that is me.


Not sure that's a waste, the new variants have been hitting people a bit harder.
Maybe not the 25yr olds, but they do have a lot of older staff in the supervisors/management that keep the system running.


----------



## sags

AZ vaccines are coming. Give that to new vaccinations and save the Pfizer and Moderna for 2nd shots.

If people don't want the AZ........they can wait for more Pfizer, Moderna or maybe the Jansen vaccine.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I guess no one is concerned about this. It certainly would have an effect on the people like Sags waiting for their favourite vaccine.









EU moves toward six-week vaccine export cut


The controversial proposal says EU should block exports that ‘pose a threat’ to vaccine supplies in the bloc.




www.politico.eu


----------



## like_to_retire

Yeah, I see India is doing the same thing. Is Biden's loan to us the only avenue left to get Astrazeneca?

ltr


----------



## sags

I think Biden will open up exports to Canada from the Pfizer as soon as they can.


----------



## Money172375

My 74.5 years old dad got his Pfizer today. In and out in 35 mins. next up is a new knee in 2 weeks,


----------



## agent99

With EU planning on stopping vaccine exports, it is possible that the 16 week delay in administering Pfizer 2nd doses to seniors could be much longer. What happens then? Large numbers have had just one shot. 3 or 4 months later do we start all over again?

I realise Canada says this won't happen to our supply. But why would Canada get preferential treatment? Latest on CBC says even Trudeau is worried! Even supply of the Astra-Zeneca equivalent from India is in doubt


----------



## MrMatt

agent99 said:


> With EU planning on stopping vaccine exports, it is possible that the 16 week delay in administering Pfizer 2nd doses to seniors could be much longer. What happens then? Large numbers have had just one shot. 3 or 4 months later do we start all over again?


Unfortunately some data is suggesting that for some people 3 or 4 months will be "starting over".
I think it was grossly negligent to significantly deviate from the approved vaccine schedule without data suggesting it would be okay.



> I realise Canada says this won't happen to our supply. But why would Canada get preferential treatment? Latest on CBC says even Trudeau is worried! Even supply of the Astra-Zeneca equivalent from India is in doubt


I think the only thing that Trudeau is worried about is that this failure will coincide with the election he's planning and he'll lose power.

I truly think the only reason that Trudeau has been able to hold on so long is because he's the PM. There are better leaders in the party and I can't wait for one of them to take over.

While I disagree with the general policy direction of the Liberals, I think I'd be happier if they were at least somewhat competent.


----------



## andrewf

Hey if EU doesn't take contracts seriously, maybe we should start confiscating EU assets in Canada as penalty.


----------



## Money172375

What are the odds that a period of political nationalism is followed by a global pandemic.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Hey if EU doesn't take contracts seriously, maybe we should start confiscating EU assets in Canada as penalty.


The EU government isn't bound by contracts of private corporations, that's not how it works.

In fact in many cases governments restrict what you can put in a contract from the start. I'd also be sure that all vaccine exports of controlled substances are conditional on the government permits anyway, which again gives them an easy out.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Reading this article, it makes it sound that the EU's suggestion to ban exports of vaccine is more of a tit for tat at the US and the UK for their own restrictive vaccine export programs. I have no doubt they have a valid point. In any case, maybe they won't make it a total export ban and perhaps Canada may not be affected. I agree exporting vaccine to the US and UK does seem like vaccine wrongly directed, but with with my own bias on this issue I may not be the right person to mediate the dispute.









An EU ban on vaccine exports would make its wretched rollout take longer still | Leo Cendrowicz


The bloc should hold its nerve and focus on domestic production, says Brussels-based journalist Leo Cendrowicz




www.theguardian.com


----------



## kcowan

james4beach said:


> For those of you thinking everyone in the US is able to get vaccinated easily... not so. It varies by state.
> 
> I have an older relative in the US (she's certainly high risk) who hasn't been able to get vaccinated yet. Part of it is a logistical problem. The state run clinics are very far from her location, and she doesn't have a way to get there, without a long taxi ride.
> 
> More local vaccination sites (drug stores) are completely booked up. I checked online and *every* pharmacy in the state is completely booked, and has no spots available.
> 
> I might have to start helping her check & grab spots. If any of you like @Eder have tips on how to get vaccinated in the US, please let me know because I'd like to help out this relative. I presume that CVS and Walgreens are the place to look? Do you just keep checking the web site every day until a slot opens up?


Our friends from Kentucky found that their non-qualifying friends would go to Walgreens late in the day and gets shots because of no shows. Usually it would take two days of waiting an hour to get the jab.

With scheduled appointments, many book multiple locations.


----------



## kcowan

My one Pfizer shot has an 81% efficacy, and apparently it is 100% effective at preventing death. What they do not know is how long that will last without my second jab!


----------



## like_to_retire

kcowan said:


> My one Pfizer shot has an 81% efficacy, and apparently it is 100% effective at preventing death. What they do not know is how long that will last without my second jab!


Exactly, and since we're now part of a huge foolish experiment, your efficacy could be zero in 4 months and all of this a waste of time that we need to start all over. Then we'll be lining up to get our two shots at the correct interval.

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> Exactly, and since we're now part of a huge foolish experiment, your efficacy could be zero in 4 months and all of this a waste of time that we need to start all over. Then we'll be lining up to get our two shots at the correct interval.
> 
> ltr


or we could have left a lot of vulnerable people unvaccinated, watch them die and do it your way. I would rather poke people again then watch them die.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> or we could have left a lot of vulnerable people unvaccinated, watch them die and do it your way. I would rather poke people again then watch them die.


Well, I guess if we do it all again and you don't want people to die, we'll have to extend the interval further to accomodate that, and it starts all over again.

Why don't we just properly vaccinate seniors so they are actually protected and go from there since most young people aren't as likely to die from the virus.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> Well, I guess if we do it all again and you don't want people to die, we'll have to extend the interval further to accomodate that, and it starts all over again.
> 
> Why don't we just properly vaccinate seniors so they are actually protected and go from there since most young people aren't as likely to die from the virus.


Why don't we do it properly?
Because political science outranks medical science.

It is way better optics for the politicians to get everyone 1 dose by July and have 80% of those useless, than to properly vaccinate 20% of the population properly in that same time period.

That being said, there may be some interpretation of the data suggesting partial vaccinations for shorter periods may be a reasonable path forward. I just don't think that is in alignment with the majority of publicly available data.

I'm going to stick to my opinion, based on the wider research, not the opinion of any specific expert.
Remember Dr Tam & Trudeau were saying we didn't need masks or travel restrictions. At the time EVERYONE knew it was just politics, we ALL knew that masks and travel restrictions were the scientifically appropriate action.


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> Well, I guess if we do it all again and you don't want people to die, we'll have to extend the interval further to accomodate that, and it starts all over again.
> 
> Why don't we just properly vaccinate seniors so they are actually protected and go from there since most young people aren't as likely to die from the virus.
> 
> ltr


If we had of had the vaccine to do it I would have been all for that idea. I am not saying you are wrong on this. I am just saying there is more to the issue then just whether moving out the 2nd shot has been proven to be safe or not. 

In Canada, we found ourselves critically short on enough vaccine to properly vaccinate our seniors. That vital point needs to be included with every opinion on this or that opinion is based on incomplete information and is therefore misleading. 

That is all I am saying...and I suppose I have said it often enough, so I will agree to disagree, at this point.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> If we had of had the vaccine to do it I would have been all for that idea. I am not saying you are wrong on this. I am just saying there is more to the issue then just whether moving out the 2nd shot has been proven to be safe or not.
> 
> In Canada, we found ourselves critically short on enough vaccine to properly vaccinate our seniors. That vital point needs to be included with every opinion on this or that opinion is based on incomplete information and is therefore misleading.
> 
> That is all I am saying...and I suppose I have said it often enough, so I will agree to disagree, at this point.


The risk by cohort differs by several orders of magnitude.
It is an absolute no brainer that we should fully vaccinate the highest risk first, along with the most likely spreaders.

I think there is also a moral imperative to vaccinate essential workers who are at higher risk, due to their work.


----------



## cainvest

like_to_retire said:


> Why don't we just properly vaccinate seniors so they are actually protected and go from there since most young people aren't as likely to die from the virus.


They are still a long ways off getting to young people. Here in MB they are currently at about a 3:1 ratio of first to second shots being given daily.


----------



## agent99

fter fir


kcowan said:


> My one Pfizer shot has an 81% efficacy, and apparently it is 100% effective at preventing death. What they do not know is how long that will last without my second jab!


That does not correspond with the original NEJM published data - vaccine efficacy of 52% (95% CI, 29.5 to 68.4) during this interval and indicating early protection by the vaccine, starting as soon as 12 days after the first dose. 
https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2034577 . (BTW, I think many mis-interpret the statistical term CI)

There may be subsequent articles published. If so were they base on data in the Phase III trials? 

If so, I guess you can cherry pick the one you like best


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Why don't we do it properly?
> Because political science outranks medical science.


It might be proper "medically" in the big picture to spread out the shots. More vaccinated with a single shot leads to less virus propagation and less deaths/serious illness.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> It might be proper "medically" in the big picture to spread out the shots. More vaccinated with a single shot leads to less virus propagation and less deaths/serious illness.


Assuming the vaccination is effective for long enough. If you only ever get 20% vaccinated at a time it won't.

Again, this is where it is important to make these decisions based on the available data.
I think that if a single shot is effective for 6 months, spacing them out is a great idea, if a single shot is effective for 2 months it's a horrible idea.

There is data leaning in both directions, I hope they make the right choice. But I think the single dose approach is too close to the Swedish/UK failed "herd immunity" approach.


Nice graph here.








Coronavirus stats worldwide: Compare Canada and other key nations


Visit CTVNews.ca for an interactive look at the COVID-19 outbreak in key countries.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## cainvest

agent99 said:


> That does not correspond with the original NEJM published data - vaccine efficacy of 52% (95% CI, 29.5 to 68.4) during this interval and indicating early protection by the vaccine, starting as soon as 12 days after the first dose.
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2034577 . (BTW, I think many mis-interpret the statistical term CI)


I think there is a few different ways to look at that data and some articles have pointed out (haven't checked myself though) that the efficacy numbers do change.

If you compare efficacy based on,

Infections from first shot given to just before second shot.
Infections from 12 days after the first shot given to just before second shot.

The later comparison allows the body time to build defence.

Also, as stated many times, efficacy is not the only measure in play here. A comparison in the reduction for deaths and serious illness needs to be included.


----------



## agent99

This article by BMJ discusses the issue of extended period between doses. 









Delaying the second dose of covid-19 vaccines


Concerns remain about effectiveness in older adults On 30 December 2020, the UK announced a deviation from the recommended protocol for the Pfizer-BioNTech covid-19 vaccine, prolonging the interval between doses from 3 to 12 weeks.12 Similar decisions were made for the Oxford-AstraZeneca...




www.bmj.com


----------



## MrMatt

@cainvest & @agent99
really good links, I think they explain a lot how the trade offs are so complicated.
Different vaccines, different cohorts, it's a mess.

No clear cut answers, and complicated findings.


----------



## sags

I argued from the start that people should be fully vaccinated with the vaccine we had.

I haven't changed my mind on that.

Thankfully, my wife got both Pfizer vaccinations on time.

I thank Doug Ford for that.


----------



## sags

Originally Doug Ford was in favor of holding back vaccines for second shots.

He came under heavy criticism from Conservatives for holding back the shots. All they care about is opening up the economy. That is all they write about in the Toronto Sun media.

I don't know if he gave in to the political pressure or not.

I hope he didn't and they are giving people the 2nd dose on time.


----------



## Money172375

Another record day of doses in Ontario. Almost 80,000. By most accounts (In person or on the news), lineups are minimal and wait times are short. Seems like there is still capacity to do More. Regions in Ontario are now inviting 70 year olds to book or pre-register. The timeframe for the 75-80 cohort was less than a week. Appears to be going faster since there’s a lot of 75+, 80+ who haven’t signed up yet.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Originally Doug Ford was in favor of holding back vaccines for second shots.
> 
> He came under heavy criticism from Conservatives for holding back the shots. All they care about is opening up the economy. That is all they write about in the Toronto Sun media.
> 
> I don't know if he gave in to the political pressure or not.
> 
> I hope he didn't and they are giving people the 2nd dose on time.


Several Conservatives, such as myself, criticize the scientifically unfounded decision to delay second doses.

Also most Conservatives I know, care about the health and well being of Canadians.
Then fairness.
"opening up the economy" is a tertiary concern, if that.

Personally I don't care about restaurants, I think they should be shut down until COVID is over.
As far as the small/big business restrictions, they're clearly unfair and unbalanced.



To try and spin this as a Conservatives are COVID dumb is ridiculous, it's very clear here that there are a variety of informed, considered yet differing opinions, irrespective of political affiliation.


----------



## agent99

sags said:


> Originally Doug Ford was in favor of holding back vaccines for second shots.
> 
> He came under heavy criticism from Conservatives for holding back the shots. All they care about is opening up the economy. That is all they write about in the Toronto Sun media.
> 
> I don't know if he gave in to the political pressure or not.
> 
> I hope he didn't and they are giving people the 2nd dose on time.


They are NOT. Have you been reading this discussion?


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Several Conservatives, such as myself, criticize the scientifically unfounded decision to delay second doses.
> 
> Also most Conservatives I know, care about the health and well being of Canadians.
> Then fairness. "opening up the economy" is a tertiary concern, if that.
> 
> *Personally I don't care about restaurants, I think they should be shut down until COVID is over.
> As far as the small/big business restrictions, they're clearly unfair and unbalanced.*
> 
> To try and spin this as a Conservatives are COVID dumb is ridiculous, it's very clear here that there are a variety of informed, considered yet differing opinions, irrespective of political affiliation.


 ... I would agree with the bolded part.

Let the hospitality sector die quickly rather than a slow-death with the ridiculous make-shift restrictions/rules such as so x number of allowed for in-door dining and if that doesn't work, # number of people for outdoor dining whilst those businesses are bleeding to death with additional expenditures to accommodate or like keeping a dead-mass afloat. 

This way the municipal mayors will be very happy that taxes dry-up from that small business sector and then they can legitimately stick their hands out for a big chunk from the province. 

Next in line will be smaller retail stores ... such as stupid computer gaming stores, hair salons, clothing, etc. Just keep the big box stores opened during the pandemic and the economy will still be running ... perhaps even better as who needs small businesses and their taxes.


----------



## sags

My wife got both her Pfizer on schedule. 

Others that work with her have their first shot and are waiting 45 days for the second shot.

Now I read that people getting a first shot today may have to wait 4 months.


----------



## agent99

sags said:


> Now I read that people getting a first shot today may have to wait 4 months.


We got our first shot almost 3 weeks ago and after scheduled date was cancelled, have not been told when we will get the next one! Don't give Ford credit for doing something that he and his team have not done. 

The objective is to get the population immunized. Half doing it is no better than not doing it at all, except for a very short period. They have no idea if the 2nd dose will increase protection when administered 4 months after the first.


----------



## sags

Then I admit.....I have no idea what the Ford government is doing now and I am not sure they do either.


----------



## james4beach

agent99 said:


> The objective is to get the population immunized. Half doing it is no better than not doing it at all, except for a very short period. They have no idea if the 2nd dose will increase protection when administered 4 months after the first.


Here was the analysis from a BC infectious disease expert. This position was later published as a note in a medical publication somewhere, and I remember seeing several other American doctors signing in agreement.

Read that link for the info I heard from the expert. Basic idea is that the interval to the booster shots is a rough guess. Immunity trails off slowly, so the timing of a booster is not very essential. Pfizer had to guess at this to begin with, and chose an *unusually short* period. The 4 month guidance is within typical norms that we've seen from all kinds of other vaccines, so it seems like a reasonable guess. In any case, immunity does NOT rapidly decline, and choosing this interval is a bit of an art / guesswork.

We're also in an emergency situation where we are in a race against time. I am on board with the public health idea here. Under "war time" scenarios like we are in, experts have to use their best judgement and make strategic decisions .... I like the decision they made. I think there's good science backing it.


----------



## Eder

Some good Covid news...









Opinion | Herd Immunity Is Near, Despite Fauci’s Denial


His estimate that it’ll take a 70% to 85% vaccination rate ignores those who have already been infected.




www.wsj.com





“Natural immunity after Covid-19 infection is likely lifelong, extrapolating from data on other coronaviruses that cause severe illness, SARS and MERS,” says Monica Gandhi, an infectious-disease physician and professor at the University of California. 

The same report found that 45% of people in Los Angeles had Covid-19 antibodies. Again, the number can only be higher today. Between “half and two-thirds of our population has antibodies in it now,” due to Covid exposure or vaccination, Mayor Eric Garcetti said Sunday on “Face the Nation.” That would explain why cases in Los Angeles are down 95% in the past 11 weeks and the positivity rate among those tested is now 1.7%.


----------



## cainvest

Eder said:


> “Natural immunity after Covid-19 infection is likely lifelong, extrapolating from data on other coronaviruses that cause severe illness, SARS and MERS,” says Monica Gandhi, an infectious-disease physician and professor at the University of California.


Interesting, IIRC there was a paper published on SARS which showed immunity for only 2-3 years.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> Interesting, IIRC there was a paper published on SARS which showed immunity for only 2-3 years.


I'm hoping for the best. Obviously at some point, Covid will just disappear or be rendered a much lesser threat, perhaps due to drugs for treatment. That doesn't mean we should drop our guard though. A *lot* of people might die between now and it being over.

Vaccination might be giving people the wrong idea about the trajectory. There seems to be a misconception that the US is now handling their situation very well, and Covid is diminishing. This is not at all the case. I have monitored the US vs Canadian death rate since day one of the pandemic. The Canadian death rate is 600 per million pop, America's is 1684 per million.

In recent months, even as the US has vaccinated millions of people, the relative death rate in America is _increasing_ versus Canada's.

It will be quite a few months before the US can turn this around, and vaccination takes a long time to really offer the kind of protection everyone is hoping for. Also remember that the public changes their behaviour, and becomes more reckless prematurely during vaccination.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> I'm hoping for the best.


I think just being realistic about it is the best. There are so many cases out there the immunity longevity should become well established.

BTW, here's one SARS study that shows 3 years. Duration of Antibody Responses after Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome
I think three years is a positive thing in that it likely can't continue to sweep the planet after vaccines have been deployed. This is assuming vaccines last as long as natural infection immunity but we can always get booster shots as well.


----------



## Eder

cainvest said:


> Interesting, IIRC there was a paper published on SARS which showed immunity for only 2-3 years.


I saw a report that showed SARs patients tested positive for antibodies last year when Covid was taking hold... the sad thing is studies are not being done on things like natural immunity, mask efficiency, transmission methods, lock down efficiencies vs not, etc now when there are so many active cases so the next end of the world we can have a better response.


----------



## cainvest

Eder said:


> the sad thing is studies are not being done on things like natural immunity


Actually just by the shear numbers of covid infected they should get a good picture from the repeat cases alone. A little while back, here in Manitoba, there we 0 repeat cases which is a good indicator immunity was "at least" 6+ months. Now compile this data over the entire North America to plot repeat cases over a year to get a more detailed picture.


----------



## Eder

james4beach said:


> In recent months, even as the US has vaccinated millions of people, the relative death rate in America is _increasing_ versus Canada's.


Weekly deaths in the USA are falling off a cliff.


----------



## Money172375

Don’t know if it’s good news or bad, but the vaccine rollout in some areas of Ontario is going very well. In multiple areas they dropped the age requirement 10 years in about a week. Seems a large chunk of 70+ and 80+ aren’t making appointments so they keep dropping the age requirement. Most of my friends parents got their jabs this week. All secured appointments within a few days of the new announcements.


----------



## like_to_retire

Don't delay second COVID-19 vaccine dose for seniors, researchers urge.
_"The study is one of the first in the country to assess the immune response to COVID-19 vaccines among seniors, according to the COVID-19 Immunity Task Force."_


Canadian indigenous group sees COVID-19 cases after first vaccine dose, shortens gap between shots.
_"Indigenous communities in the Canadian province of Manitoba are shortening intervals between doses of COVID-19 vaccine after confirming several dozen infections after the initial jabs."_


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> I think just being realistic about it is the best. There are so many cases out there the immunity longevity should become well established.
> 
> BTW, here's one SARS study that shows 3 years. Duration of Antibody Responses after Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome
> I think three years is a positive thing in that it likely can't continue to sweep the planet after vaccines have been deployed. This is assuming vaccines last as long as natural infection immunity but we can always get booster shots as well.


I agree, but there is data, for COVID19 and COVID19 vaccines showing in some cases the immunity is very short.

I think we'll end up finding some populations will have a very short immunity window, the question is how many people do they represent.

It is possible that there will be COVID19 variants that are just different enough that the current vaccines will not be effective, this happens every year with the Flu. I'd be guessing on how likely that is.

My big concern is that COVID19 is too contagious, and not deadly enough to die out on it's own.

I think long term we're going to end up with a series of regular vaccinations that everyone takes, which will likely be effective, but give rise to more anti-vaxxers.
It's easier to be an anti-vaxxer when you don't see the effects of not vaccinating.


----------



## agent99

Money172375 said:


> Don’t know if it’s good news or bad, but the vaccine rollout in some areas of Ontario is going very well. In multiple areas they dropped the age requirement 10 years in about a week. Seems a large chunk of 70+ and 80+ aren’t making appointments so they keep dropping the age requirement. Most of my friends parents got their jabs this week. All secured appointments within a few days of the new announcements.


Don't know why you keep saying it is going well. It is NOT.

As you are well aware, seniors80+ are not getting their second jab. That is the only reason younger people are able to get their first jab.

Except for long term care homes and some front line workers, almost nobody will have had both jabs until late June and later. Those getting vaccine at present won't get second one until mid July at earliest. Canada is *the only country in the world* that has extended the period between jabs to 4 months. This not based on any science. An experiment using the seniors first and others as guinea pigs. Link from here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-covid-19-vaccine-delay-risk-1.5939134

The roll out in Canada is actually a disaster. Insufficient supplies, ignoring manufacturer's directions for use of their vaccines. The US is doing a way, way better job, as are many other countries.


----------



## Money172375

agent99 said:


> Don't know why you keep saying it is going well. It is NOT.
> 
> As you are well aware, seniors80+ are not getting their second jab. That is the only reason younger people are able to get their first jab.
> 
> Except for long term care homes and some front line workers, almost nobody will have had both jabs until late June and later. Those getting vaccine at present won't get second one until mid July at earliest. Canada is *the only country in the world* that has extended the period between jabs to 4 months. This not based on any science. An experiment using the seniors first and others as guinea pigs. Link from here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-covid-19-vaccine-delay-risk-1.5939134
> 
> The roll out in Canada is actually a disaster. Insufficient supplies, ignoring manufacturer's directions for use of their vaccines. The US is doing a way, way better job, as are many other countries.


That article seems pretty balanced. says first dose efficacy is quite strong, yet not fully known. Given the status of our shipments, I think the strategy is an appropriate one. Perhaps if shipments improve, they will revisit the guidelines. Its a choice of fully protected a small population or partial long protecting a larger population. 

I’m predicting we’ll see a big shift in illness and more severe cases in younger people. They are tired of lockdowns, the variants are now thought to be 60% more deadly, and they’re way down the vaccine line.


----------



## MrMatt

agent99 said:


> Don't know why you keep saying it is going well. It is NOT.
> 
> As you are well aware, seniors80+ are not getting their second jab. That is the only reason younger people are able to get their first jab.
> 
> Except for long term care homes and some front line workers, almost nobody will have had both jabs until late June and later. Those getting vaccine at present won't get second one until mid July at earliest. Canada is *the only country in the world* that has extended the period between jabs to 4 months. This not based on any science. An experiment using the seniors first and others as guinea pigs. Link from here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-covid-19-vaccine-delay-risk-1.5939134
> 
> The roll out in Canada is actually a disaster. Insufficient supplies, ignoring manufacturer's directions for use of their vaccines. The US is doing a way, way better job, as are many other countries.


I'd like to see your claim that Canada is the only country in the world doing this, that's an incredibly bold claim.
has any expert made that claim?


Also regarding intervals it's more complicated than that.




https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vaccine-studies-israel-uk-informed-bc-s-second-dose-delay-1.5935865


"The manufacturers, for their part, provide different guidelines for the time between doses. Pfizer-BioNTech recommends three weeks, Moderna proposes four weeks and Oxford-AstraZeneca calls for eight to 12 weeks."

I'll stick to my initial claim, they should be provided per the manufacturer approved schedule, unless other data is available.

I actually agree with SAGS that 4 months is not supported by the science. But I think this is really to cover for Trudeaus ineptitude. 
I hope the gamble pays off, because it saves lives, unfortunately that also makes Trudeau a hero, despite being so reckless.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> I actually agree with SAGS ...


Glad I didn't have a mouth full of coffee when I read that.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Glad I didn't have a mouth full of coffee when I read that.


I should be careful, I might lose my "partisan hack" creds.

But really, in the absence of data you have to make calls. 
I'm just naturally conservative, and think they're being too aggressive here.


----------



## Money172375

CP24 news in Toronto reporting that not enough people are coming in for vaccines. Spots and appointments are empty. Virtually no wait time when you show up. Currently, there are 30,000 spots open.

”we need more vaccines”. “We need a provincial sign-up portal!” Trudeau sucks, Ford sucks!
would be sad if this fails, because not enough people chose to get a shot


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> CP24 news in Toronto reporting that not enough people are coming in for vaccines. Spots and appointments are empty. Virtually no wait time when you show up. Currently, there are 30,000 spots open.
> 
> ”we need more vaccines”. “We need a provincial sign-up portal!” Trudeau sucks, Ford sucks!
> would be sad if this fails, because not enough people chose to get a shot


I'm not legally allowed to get a shot.
I know people scheduled for next week.

If they have available slots, open them up to more people


----------



## agent99

Are the vaccines that have become available A-Z? Could be many rightly or wrongly are still wary because of the negative reports on A-Z?

On the "only in Canada eh?" 4month delay front:

Research raises questions over delayed second vaccine doses for seniors

Maybe they will see the errors in their ways. Seems they are basing decisions on a "Vancouver Study" ????

More from G&M









New study casts doubt on time between COVID-19 vaccine doses


Canadian research finds elderly people have lower antibody response after first dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine




www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## Money172375

Toronto officials plead with residents 75-plus to help fill 30,000 open appointments at city vaccine clinics


City efforts to get as many people vaccinated as possible come amid growing worry over the danger posed by COVID-19 variants.




www.thestar.com


----------



## Money172375

agent99 said:


> Are the vaccines that have become available A-Z? Could be many rightly or wrongly are still wary because of the negative reports on A-Z?
> 
> On the 4month delay front:
> 
> Research raises questions over delayed second vaccine doses for seniors
> 
> Maybe they will see the errors in their ways. Seems they are basing decisions on a "Vancouver Study" ????


Hey, if people continue to reject the first shot, we’ll have more for the 2Nd dose.


----------



## Beaver101

^ 2nd dose of what? Some folks get the first dose of Pzifer/Moderna .... are you expecting them to take the AZ shot as 2nd dose? Mix and match ... ???? Ooops ... correct that ... no matching here, just mixing.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ^ 2nd dose of what? Some folks get the first dose of Pzifer/Moderna .... are you expecting them to take the AZ shot as 2nd dose? Mix and match ... ????


No. If, the lack of willing recipients continue, we may be able (or forced) to go back to a 2nd dose in less than 4 months


----------



## sags

We have 2 vaccination centers and all appointments are booked today for vaccinations for people over 75.

People can't book ahead and have to visit the website every morning at 8 am to see if they can book an appointment.

There is a long list of other people eligible to get the shot. No mention on when they will lower the age to 70-75.





__





How To Get Your COVID-19 Vaccine — Middlesex-London Health Unit


The COVID-19 vaccine is safe and effective and will continue to protect us against COVID-19. To learn who is eligible, and for which doses, please review the latest COVID-19 vaccine eligibility.



www.healthunit.com


----------



## Beaver101

‘It’s a joke,’ Ford takes aim at federal government over unpredictable vaccine supply

I agree with Ford on this, only it's not April 1st ... this is a joke coming from the fed's procurement department.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> CP24 news in Toronto reporting that not enough people are coming in for vaccines. Spots and appointments are empty. Virtually no wait time when you show up. Currently, there are 30,000 spots open.


This is bizarre. Can someone help me understand, why are people in Toronto not booking appointments?

Is there this much vaccine hesitancy? Or is there some technical problem / confusion with the booking process?


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> This is bizarre. Can someone help me understand, why are people in Toronto not booking appointments?
> 
> Is there this much vaccine hesitancy? Or is there some technical problem / confusion with the booking process?


A few things:

Some vaccine hesitancy
some transportation/mobility challenges for seniors (believe there are 5 mass clinics in Toronto). Pharmacy and local family doctors in a pilot program only offering AZ at this time 
Confusion about multiple sign-up portals (provincial portal and probably a dozen or more local health unit portals)
some reports of lineups and wait times
ex. my parents neighbours are 80+. they’ve chosen not to go in yet. Physically and mentally capabale of living on their own. They just don’t drive, so they need groceries delivered. Their kids and grandkids are visiting DAILY.


----------



## sags

Too many cooks in the kitchen ?


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> A few things:
> 
> Some vaccine hesitancy
> some transportation/mobility challenges for seniors (believe there are 5 mass clinics in Toronto). Pharmacy and local family doctors in a pilot program only offering AZ at this time
> Confusion about multiple sign-up portals (provincial portal and probably a dozen or more local health unit portals)
> some reports of lineups and wait times
> ex. my parents neighbours are 80+. they’ve chosen not to go in yet. Physically and mentally capabale of living on their own. They just don’t drive, so they need groceries delivered. Their kids and grandkids are visiting DAILY.


There is one sign up portal that redirects to all the other options.




__





COVID‑19 vaccines


Learn about Ontario’s vaccination program to help protect us against COVID‑19.




covid-19.ontario.ca


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> There is one sign up portal that redirects to all the other options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID‑19 vaccines
> 
> 
> Learn about Ontario’s vaccination program to help protect us against COVID‑19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid-19.ontario.ca


Yes and no. This one portal (as of today) is forcing those under 75 to get AZ. If you go to the regional,sites, you can book and get Pfizer or Moderna.

the regional health units are promoting their own sites, so I suspect thats a little confusing, and a LOT of people are avoiding AZ.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Yes and no. This one portal (as of today) is forcing those under 75 to get AZ. If you go to the regional,sites, you can book and get Pfizer or Moderna.
> 
> the regional health units are promoting their own sites, so I suspect thats a little confusing, and a LOT of people are avoiding AZ.


The province should set a standard for how the vaccine is distributed, and if a local health unit chooses to deviate, they're the ones causing the problem.
I say if you turn down a vaccine, you go to the end of the line and wait for 2022.

I want my vaccine now, and these selfish, picky entitled @[email protected]#$ who are prolonging this are pissing me off.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Remember, the vaccine is "voluntary" and people have "rights" ... infact "moral" rights to select/accept/refuse anything in this country.


----------



## sags

I would like data on how many people are in the hospital for COVID after they were vaccinated.

That would be real time data......not the analysis from a study.


----------



## cainvest

sags said:


> I would like data on how many people are in the hospital for COVID after they were vaccinated.


I'm sure that data is around but it likely won't get reported by the media because it's not headline news. Of course if many vaccinated people do end up in the hospital that info will spread like wildfire in media outlets, so just watch for that.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I would like data on how many people are in the hospital for COVID after they were vaccinated.
> 
> That would be real time data......not the analysis from a study.


Virtually none, because statistically almost nobody is in the hospital.

Look at london.





Summary of COVID-19 Cases in Middlesex-London — Middlesex-London Health Unit


Find the summary of COVID-19 cases in Middlesex-London. This information is updated daily at 12 noon.



www.healthunit.com





Of over 6800 cases, only 309, less than 5% were ever hospitalized, and only 186 died.
I'm not sure how many people are in MiddlesexLondon Health Unit, but it's likely around at least 400k.

We've only had people vaccinated for a few months, it's too early to see data on impacts.


----------



## kcowan

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Remember, the vaccine is "voluntary" and people have "rights" ... infact "moral" rights to select/accept/refuse anything in this country.


Beav
Haha
Haven't you heard the trampling of rights by our governments?


----------



## Eder

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Remember, the vaccine is "voluntary" and people have "rights" ... infact "moral" rights to select/accept/refuse anything in this country.


As demonstrated by Mr Socks mandatory 3 day $2000 stay in roach hotels for seniors. Yes... our rights are worth nothing.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> We've only had people vaccinated for a few months, it's too early to see data on impacts.


Right


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> As demonstrated by Mr Socks mandatory 3 day $2000 stay in roach hotels for seniors. Yes... our rights are worth nothing.


The vast majority of people this is impacting is those who travelled internationally AFTER the pandemic was obvious.
I have no sympathy for them.


----------



## Eder

I guess as long as you have no sympathy then that's OK. Only some rights are worth keeping.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> I guess as long as you have no sympathy then that's OK. Only some rights are worth keeping.


What right is being violated? Or are the restrictions necessary.

Also the government violates them all the time, they gave themselves an escape clause for a reason.


----------



## Beaver101

kcowan said:


> Beav
> Haha
> Haven't you heard the trampling of rights by our governments?


 ... such as? in the context of this pandemic.


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> As demonstrated by Mr Socks mandatory 3 day $2000 stay in roach hotels for seniors. Yes... our rights are worth nothing.


 ... no, you still have the right to travel ... just that it's the law (and a weak one at that) to quarantine 14 days in roach hotel for travellers now. 

And you don't expect the government (aka taxpayers (including you)) to be paying for that roach hotel because you "want" to travel.


----------



## Numbersman61

Eder said:


> As demonstrated by Mr Socks mandatory 3 day $2000 stay in roach hotels for seniors. Yes... our rights are worth nothing.


My friend booked into the Calgary Airport Marriott (most expensive near airport). Total cost for one person for 3 days (including food) $1,300. Most folks expect extreme restrictions to expire April 30.


----------



## gibor365

Just checked vaccination rate per country per capita and ... Canada dropped to 63th place in the World! This is hilarious!
Even Ford got pissed off and tweeted that Federal government is ridiculous as we're on 55th place in the World by vaccines supply! However, we remember, that on paper we were number 1 in the World by "securing" vaccines


----------



## gibor365

agent99 said:


> Don't know why you keep saying it is going well. It is NOT.
> 
> As you are well aware, seniors80+ are not getting their second jab. That is the only reason younger people are able to get their first jab.
> 
> Except for long term care homes and some front line workers, almost nobody will have had both jabs until late June and later. Those getting vaccine at present won't get second one until mid July at earliest. Canada is *the only country in the world* that has extended the period between jabs to 4 months. This not based on any science. An experiment using the seniors first and others as guinea pigs. Link from here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-covid-19-vaccine-delay-risk-1.5939134
> 
> The roll out in Canada is actually a disaster. Insufficient supplies, ignoring manufacturer's directions for use of their vaccines. The US is doing a way, way better job, as are many other countries.


It's all PR! The major reason delaying 2nd shot is political , to report that Canada vaccinated more people as we're already on 63th place in the World


----------



## gibor365

From Brad Wouters : Executive Vice-President, Science and Research, University Health Network and Senior Scientist at the Princess Margaret Cancer Centre. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1367268944776683524


----------



## agent99

gibor365 said:


> It's all PR! The major reason delaying 2nd shot is political , to report that Canada vaccinated more people as we're already on 63th place in the World


There has been more and more pushback by public as well as doctors and scientists on the 2nd dose delay. The NACI who recommended it are apparently now having second thoughts. We are waiting! My wife and I received first jab 25 days ago, had second dose scheduled for yesterday cancelled, and have not heard a thing about when we may get it.


----------



## gibor365

agent99 said:


> There has been more and more pushback by public as well as doctors and scientists on the 2nd dose delay. The NACI who recommended it are apparently now having second thoughts. We are waiting! My wife and I received first jab 25 days ago, had second dose scheduled for yesterday cancelled, and have not heard a thing about when we may get it.


My mom got first Moderna shot week ago, my MIL got first Pfizer shot 2 weeks ago (both live in senior houses). Regarding 2nd shot they were told maybe in month , maybe not... no idea...
P.S. I'd postpone my first shot so my mom would get a 2nd one


----------



## Money172375

Pending announcement from NACI?





__





CityNews







www.680news.com


----------



## Money172375

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/astrazeneca-under-55-1.5968128



first they said AZ was unsafe for the elderly. Now it appears unsafe to younger people.

there‘s gonna be huge hesitancy for AZ.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Pending announcement from NACI?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CityNews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.680news.com


_Prince Edward Island has suspended the use of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine for those aged 18 to 29 who had appointments for shots in pharmacies - _What the Hell?! PEI already vaccinates teens and Ontario only seniors?!


----------



## gibor365

agent99 said:


> There has been more and more pushback by public as well as doctors and scientists on the 2nd dose delay. The NACI who recommended it are apparently now having second thoughts. We are waiting! My wife and I received first jab 25 days ago, had second dose scheduled for yesterday cancelled, and have not heard a thing about when we may get it.


Canada can do even more advanced cheating to show to the World how many people got at least one vaccine by splitting one dose to two


----------



## OptsyEagle

gibor365 said:


> _Prince Edward Island has suspended the use of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine for those aged 18 to 29 who had appointments for shots in pharmacies - _What the Hell?! PEI already vaccinates teens and Ontario only seniors?!


Maybe that is why it was cancelled. I would be more then a little angry if I heard they were going through with this nonsense of vaccinating that age group. Unacceptable.

That said, I am a little curious why they did not give the exact reason for the cancellations.


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> _Prince Edward Island has suspended the use of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine for those aged 18 to 29 who had appointments for shots in pharmacies - _What the Hell?! PEI already vaccinates teens and Ontario only seniors?!


First Nations and other eligible groups. LTC etc


----------



## Money172375

OptsyEagle said:


> Maybe that is why it was cancelled. I would be more then a little angry if I heard they were going through with this nonsense of vaccinating that age group. Unacceptable.
> 
> That said, I am a little curious why they did not give the exact reason for the cancellations.


Clotting.


----------



## gibor365

Good article about Israel who practically vaccinated everyone who wanted 


https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hblog20210315.476220/full/


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Clotting.


Only in UK more than 29 million _people_ in the _UK_ have _received_ at least one dose (most likely majority got AZ) ...curious if they have stats regarding clotting....
The European Medicines Agency has said that the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine is safe and effective, and not associated with an increased overall risk of developing blood clots. The regulator conducted a review of the vaccine after a small number of people developed blood clots in Europe after receiving the vaccine.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/astrazeneca-under-55-1.5968128
> 
> 
> 
> first they said AZ was unsafe for the elderly. Now it appears unsafe to younger people.
> 
> there‘s gonna be huge hesitancy for AZ.


I wrote about this before. I said that I have no problem taking the AZ shot myself, but would wait if I was a woman under 65. The deadly blood clots were only seem among young women.

This seems to be the direction the regulator is going as well. The AZ shot is about to get suspended.

The ONLY known risk is to young women under ~ 60 or so. If you are male, I haven't seen any evidence that there is any danger of blood clots from the AZ vaccine. I also pointed out earlier that the elevated danger of blood clots in younger women changes the "risk vs reward" equation for vaccination.

Again... the problem is only known to affect women under 60.


----------



## Beaver101

Christine Elliott receives AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine live on camera to counter vaccine hesitancy

Not sure how old Ms. Elliott is but she's leading the way. I wonder when the men like Tory, Ford, and Justin will get their shots? of whatever ...


----------



## gibor365

My fear about AZ vaccine that some countries won't recognize it as "fully vaccinated" and won't allow to travel there


----------



## gibor365

Beaver101 said:


> Christine Elliott receives AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine live on camera to counter vaccine hesitancy
> 
> Not sure how old Ms. Elliott is but she's leading the way. I wonder when the men like Tory, Ford, and Justin will get their shots? of whatever ...


I don't understand why Trudeau didn't do it yet....Bibi was first to receive vaccine


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> Christine Elliott receives AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine live on camera to counter vaccine hesitancy
> 
> Not sure how old Ms. Elliott is but she's leading the way. I wonder when the men like Tory, Ford, and Justin will get their shots? of whatever ...


She’s 65


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> I wrote about this before. I said that I have no problem taking the AZ shot myself, but would wait if I was a woman under 65. The deadly blood clots were only seem among young women.
> 
> This seems to be the direction the regulator is going as well. The AZ shot is about to get suspended.
> 
> The ONLY known risk is to young women under ~ 60 or so. If you are male, I haven't seen any evidence that there is any danger of blood clots from the AZ vaccine. I also pointed out earlier that the elevated danger of blood clots in younger women changes the "risk vs reward" equation for vaccination.
> 
> Again... the problem is only known to affect women under 60.


But that is the way to do it. The idea of shelving the vaccine for everyone when compared against the very low number of clots and insufficient info was definitely the wrong approach. At least this way we can continue with the program and use up the AZ vaccine that was going to expire on April 1st.


----------



## gibor365

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1376580038376689671
This is a joke! It's not recommended under 55 and over 65 LOL.
But we still happy to receive all available junk


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1376580038376689671
> This is a joke! It's not recommended under 55 and over 65 LOL.
> But we still happy to receive all available junk


Not a problem .... lots of people over 55 that need the vaccine and the AZ doses from the US aren't approved for use yet anyways.


----------



## OptsyEagle

and then we have this Danish women. 









Woman who died after AstraZeneca shot had ‘highly unusual’ symptoms, officials say - National | Globalnews.ca


The woman, who died of a blood clot more than a week after receiving the COVID-19 vaccine, had clots in small and large vessels, officials said.




globalnews.ca







> A 60-year old Danish woman who died of a blood clot after receiving AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine had “highly unusual” symptoms, according to the Danish Medicines Agency.
> 
> The woman had a low number of blood platelets and clots in small and large vessels, as well as bleeding, it said.


Where will it stop? I am going to go have a beer. It's Friday isn't it. Oh well, close enough. lol.


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> Not a problem .... lots of people over 55 that need the vaccine and the AZ doses from the US aren't approved for use yet anyways.


Ok, so now it's recommended for ppl in age bracket 56-64 only ... and who can guarantee than when will be time for 2nd shot, this age bracket gonna change?!

I just don't get it.... I'm 55 now - so AZ is not recommended for me, next year I will be 56 and AZ is fine for me?! So, what is gonna change in my body regarding "blood clotting" in 1 year?!

looks like our "health experts" are "dazed and confused" ... Logically , it should've been determent not by age, but health conditions of people


----------



## sags

There is no guarantee the blood clots are limited to within 20 days of the AZ vaccination.

I heard one expert say it could take years for blood problems to develop.

People forget all of these vaccinations are approved under an "emergency use authorization". 

None were given full clinical trials. They have no idea what the long term effects could be.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Good article about Israel who practically vaccinated everyone who wanted
> 
> 
> https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hblog20210315.476220/full/


So Israel gets good grades for vaccinating and terrible grades for managing infection rate?


----------



## kcowan

Trudeau had one task. He screwed it up Royally and now everyone must pay so he can prove himself to Liberal voters. Please help us out of this clown. 

I suppose he will postpone the crowning until he has something to be proud of? I wonder what that might be?


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> Christine Elliott receives AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine live on camera to counter vaccine hesitancy
> 
> Not sure how old Ms. Elliott is but she's leading the way. I wonder when the men like Tory, Ford, and Justin will get their shots? of whatever ...


It's not age, it's to address vaccine hesitancy.
not everyone is getting the vaccine, if 1/8 (ie 12%) refuse to take it when it's availalbe, we won't get enough people with the vaccine to stop COVID.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> It's not age, it's to address vaccine hesitancy.
> not everyone is getting the vaccine, if 1/8 (ie 12%) refuse to take it when it's available, we won't get enough people with the vaccine to stop COVID.


Then they should stop changing their minds about vaccines like Astrazeneca with a different recommendation on its dangers every other week, and stop running a nation wide experiment on senior citizens by going against manufacturer's schedules between doses. This doesn't instill confidence, rather, it terrifies everyone.

ltr


----------



## Eder

The thing is Astra is being sold at cost...its in many interests that it's efficiency and safety is disparaged.


----------



## nortel'd

like_to_retire said:


> Then they should stop changing their minds about vaccines like Astrazeneca with a different recommendation on its dangers every other week, and stop running a nation wide experiment on senior citizens by going against manufacturer's schedules between doses. This doesn't instill confidence, rather, it terrifies everyone.
> 
> ltr


According to Diane Francis's Financial Post article Diane Francis: Delayed vaccine doses raises legal questions | Financial Post (in case one can not open the article without a subscription) I will quote two paragraphs that should give every Canadian Guinea Pig the chills.

_“Pfizer could be held legally liable for a death caused by an extension of the time between vaccine doses. I doubt that would ever happen,” wrote David McCarthy, founder of a consulting company that works with the pharmaceutical industry, in an email to the Financial Post. “I think it highly likely that Pfizer has been given some ‘undertaking’ by the Canadian federal government that will hold them harmless. Pfizer would have been legally wise to require that to be in place.” 

"Has the Liberal government absolved pharmaceutical companies of potential liabilities in order to implement a dosage regime that runs contrary to their recommendations? The public has a right to know."_


----------



## MrMatt

nortel'd said:


> According to Diane Francis's Financial Post article Diane Francis: Delayed vaccine doses raises legal questions | Financial Post (in case one can not open the article without a subscription) I will quote two paragraphs that should give every Canadian Guinea Pig the chills.
> 
> _“Pfizer could be held legally liable for a death caused by an extension of the time between vaccine doses. I doubt that would ever happen,” wrote David McCarthy, founder of a consulting company that works with the pharmaceutical industry, in an email to the Financial Post. “I think it highly likely that Pfizer has been given some ‘undertaking’ by the Canadian federal government that will hold them harmless. Pfizer would have been legally wise to require that to be in place.”
> 
> "Has the Liberal government absolved pharmaceutical companies of potential liabilities in order to implement a dosage regime that runs contrary to their recommendations? The public has a right to know."_


Well that's an interesting argument.
Pharmaceutical companies normally have strict liability, which means it's always their fault.
I'm sure they have emergency waivers for COVID19.

Secondly, if the manufacturer says 3 weeks, and the government says, no we're using 4 months, and we will not let anyone take the vaccine as directed. Well that's not Pfizers fault.
That's like taking a car, removing the seatbelts, pass a law making it illegal to install seatbelts, then fining them because there was an injury in a crash.


----------



## kcowan

like_to_retire said:


> Then they should stop changing their minds about vaccines like Astrazeneca with a different recommendation on its dangers every other week, and stop running a nation wide experiment on senior citizens by going against manufacturer's schedules between doses. This doesn't instill confidence, rather, it terrifies everyone.
> 
> ltr


To me, what it has done is totally reveal how we cannot afford to put politicians in charge of really complex situations. When this global stage 3 experiment is done, we will all be smarter. Unfortunately, some of us will be dead or seriously impaired.


----------



## like_to_retire

kcowan said:


> To me, what it has done is totally reveal how we cannot afford to put politicians in charge of really complex situations. When this global stage 3 experiment is done, we will all be smarter. Unfortunately, some of us will be dead or seriously impaired.


Agreed, but whether they're right or not, they shouldn't be running the experiment in the first place. The only data we have on the second dose interval is the manufacturers', so that's what we should follow without getting creative to hedge votes in the next election - that's a dangerous game. 

We all know the government screwed up the vaccine procurement - fine, admit you were wrong, but don't try and compensate by not reading a medicine bottle label at the expense of the population.

ltr


----------



## kcowan

MrMatt said:


> That's like taking a car, removing the seatbelts, pass a law making it illegal to install seatbelts, then fining them because there was an injury in a crash.


CDC has stated that the maximum delay to dose two should be,42 days!

No response from Tam so far.

Do we want half our population inoculated for maximum safety or all our population inoculated for political signalling. You do not get to choose!


----------



## Eclectic12

nortel'd said:


> According to Diane Francis's Financial Post article Diane Francis: Delayed vaccine doses raises legal questions | Financial Post (in case one can not open the article without a subscription) I will quote two paragraphs that should give every Canadian Guinea Pig the chills.
> 
> _“Pfizer could be held legally liable for a death caused by an extension of the time between vaccine doses. I doubt that would ever happen,” wrote David McCarthy ... _



I doubt Pfizer would be held liable as well because IIRC, courts already dismissed cases where the instructions for use were ignored. 
Basically I'd think some sort of documentation of Pfizer giving the okay would be needed.

The gov't of Canada, OTOH and various people would be far more likely to be held legally liable.


Cheers


----------



## agent99

kcowan said:


> CDC has stated that the maximum delay to dose two should be,42 days!
> 
> No response from Tam so far.
> 
> Do we want half our population inoculated for maximum safety or all our population inoculated for political signalling. You do not get to choose!


I believe it is NACI that are 'calling the shots' - Anxiously waiting the word from them revising the 4 month wait times for 2nd dose that they pulled out of the air. 

Large shipment arriving this week, but who will get it? 

Our family in USA have no problem getting their second Pfizer dose in 21 days. Even the younger nieces who are in their 40's.


----------



## sags

In our area the over 70 group opened up yesterday and the next 14 days of appointments filled up right away. To book a future appointment you have to log in every morning at 7 am and start trying for an opening.

They say they will open up more appointments when they receive more vaccine.

They are giving Pfizer in one place and either Pfizer or Moderna in another.

I haven't heard much about the AZ vaccine.

Everyone is ready and waiting. All we need is the vaccines so we can ramp up the shots.


----------



## MrMatt

kcowan said:


> CDC has stated that the maximum delay to dose two should be,42 days!
> 
> No response from Tam so far.
> 
> Do we want half our population inoculated for maximum safety or all our population inoculated for political signalling. You do not get to choose!


We did, we chose political signalling.
All accounts look like Trudeau will get re-elected by larger margin this time.


----------



## Eder

agent99 said:


> Our family in USA have no problem getting their second Pfizer dose in 21 days. Even the younger nieces who are in their 40's.


Vaccine is open to everyone 16+ in 12 states so far and rising.


----------



## james4beach

Good news. Pfizer is speeding up shipments, ramping up more deliveries.

The reality is that the public just has the most confidence (fewest hesitations) about Pfizer's shots. So if we're getting millions of new doses coming, this is very good news.


----------



## james4beach

agent99 said:


> Our family in USA have no problem getting their second Pfizer dose in 21 days. Even the younger nieces who are in their 40's.


Depends on where they are. Only two of my friends in Oregon have been vaccinated. One person is over 60, and the other one cares for a disabled child.

Another relative of mine on the east coast US is theoretically eligible to be vaccinated (over 70) but all timeslots are booked, and she can't get through the call center. So in practice, she is not able to get her vaccination yet.

Practically everyone I know in the US, including this older relative, are not able to get vaccinated yet.


----------



## MrMatt

kcowan said:


> To me, what it has done is totally reveal how we cannot afford to put politicians in charge of really complex situations. When this global stage 3 experiment is done, we will all be smarter. Unfortunately, some of us will be dead or seriously impaired.



It not politicians, who will we put in charge? Unelected dicators? Not sure that's an improvement.


----------



## leoc2

james4beach said:


> Practically everyone I know in the US, including this older relative, are not able to get vaccinated yet.


My son the Waterloo U grad software engineer was deemed an essential worker. He writes code for a food delivery service out of San Fran. He received the J&J jab last week. He is in his early 30's. Go figure. USA the land of play hard, ignore covid, and survive harder. <sarcasm>Can we amalgamate? Governor Turdeau? </sracasm>


----------



## zinfit

like_to_retire said:


> Then they should stop changing their minds about vaccines like Astrazeneca with a different recommendation on its dangers every other week, and stop running a nation wide experiment on senior citizens by going against manufacturer's schedules between doses. This doesn't instill confidence, rather, it terrifies everyone.
> 
> ltr


I really question the decision to suspend AZ for people under 55. First give the individual the choice. Could there not be a process for screening people who are at risk of blood clotting? third isn't there a medication that reduces the risk of blood clotting? so they save 2 or 3 people from blood clotting but allow hundred may-be thousands to die from covid. First they wouldn't give AZ to people over 55 now they totally reversed themselves and are blocking people under 55. This is a gong show and it looks like a dumb decision as we enter a third wave.


----------



## agent99

zinfit said:


> I really question the decision to suspend AZ for people under 55. First give the individual the choice. Could there not be a process for screening people who are at risk of blood clotting? third isn't there a medication that reduces the risk of blood clotting?


This is apparently not normal blood clotting. A doctor explained this on cbc today. I don't understand the details, but this link covers some of it:









The AstraZeneca vaccine, blood clots and VIPIT: What you need to know


Canada's National Advisory Committee on Immunization has recommended pausing administration of the AstraZeneca coronavirus vaccine to those under the age of 55 due to reports of blood clots occurring in vaccine recipients in Europe.




www.ctvnews.ca





They are just buying time as more information is gathered. Makes sense, but unfortunately also scares people into not wanting the vaccine.


----------



## Eder

So I decided to try get my shot yesterday...logged onto CVS site ...every available time slot was open in many stores...picked a store close to me, just returned after my Moderna shot...2nd one will be in 4 weeks rather than the 3 week spacing my wife got with her 2nd Pfizer shot date.

I have many friends around the US from 11 years of rv'ing ...every one of them (including Canadians down here) has had their vaccine. Mind you the rv crowd is a bit less helpless than many.

Gotta admit , when the US needs to get something done they do it.


----------



## james4beach

agent99 said:


> They are just buying time as more information is gathered. Makes sense, but unfortunately also scares people into not wanting the vaccine.


I think from a scientific standpoint, they are doing the right things.

But the problem is public policy and messaging. This is a very tough problem because doctors are not public policy people. So I'm not sure anyone is to blame, but we've seen the result: it's bizarre to see the guidelines for this vaccine flip flip as they have. We already know these vaccines have been rushed to market, and none of this helps.

I'm starting to think that just to restore faith of the public, the correct thing to do might be to completely stop use of AZ ... all for the sake of restoring public confidence. Take the question mark off the table.

Then we can help build confidence, hopefully so that people _run as fast as they can_ and gets vaccinated -- which is what we need. Or maybe make it available by choice to people who request it. I'm sure there is a way to not waste the vaccine.

The public *has confidence* in Pfizer, Moderna, even J&J. We already have huge numbers of Pfizer coming as we speak. J&J is scheduled for end of April. We have plenty of tools in the arsenal and perhaps AZ is creating more trouble than its worth, due to fuelling hesitancy.

What I wrote above is an argument based on human behaviour, not purely on the science of it. But behavioural psychology is extremely important in a mass vaccination program. @MrMatt may not agree, but I think even from a technical standpoint, maximizing public buy-in and confidence is better for the public health result than delivering as many doses as possible in the next 3 weeks.


----------



## kcowan

> It not politicians, who will we put in charge? Unelected dicators? Not sure that's an improvement.


A competent PMwould appoint a team of competent scientists


----------



## zinfit

agent99 said:


> This is apparently not normal blood clotting. A doctor explained this on cbc today. I don't understand the details, but this link covers some of it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The AstraZeneca vaccine, blood clots and VIPIT: What you need to know
> 
> 
> Canada's National Advisory Committee on Immunization has recommended pausing administration of the AstraZeneca coronavirus vaccine to those under the age of 55 due to reports of blood clots occurring in vaccine recipients in Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are just buying time as more information is gathered. Makes sense, but unfortunately also scares people into not wanting the vaccine.


Trudeau better hope that the US vaccination program is pretty well complete by June 1. If that happens we should secure large supplies of Pfizer, Moderna and JNJ. Keep your fingers crossed.


----------



## james4beach

Thankfully we had a better government that Trump & Republicans, who plunged the US into total chaos until Biden brought adults back into the White House.

Trump is responsible for several hundred thousand unnecessary deaths. A deadly level of incompetence. And the US has consistently had a higher rate of death than Canada.

We may not have the most optimal government (like New Zealand) but let's also not lose sight, that we have been doing OK through the pandemic. I think what's worked against us are the fragmented provincial health authorities.


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> Thankfully we had a better government that Trump & Republicans, who plunged the US into total chaos until Biden brought adults back into the White House.
> 
> Trump is responsible for several hundred thousand unnecessary deaths. A deadly level of incompetence. And the US has consistently had a higher rate of death than Canada.
> 
> We may not have the most optimal government (like New Zealand) but let's also not lose sight, that we have been doing OK through the pandemic. I think what's worked against us are the fragmented provincial health authorities.


I am no fan of Trump but he dis something right it is called " Operation warp speed" . The US government pumped billions into the rapid development of vaccines. No one ever thought it was possible to develop vaccine in that short a time span. No one one ever expected the high rate of effectiveness. When you get a vaccine shot please stop a second to thank Trump.


----------



## cainvest

zinfit said:


> I am no fan of Trump but he dis something right it is called " Operation warp speed" .


It did help Moderna get to market.


----------



## zinfit

cainvest said:


> It did help Moderna get to market.


JNJ participated in the program . Pfizer didn't directly participate brought it did take 2 billion up front money. Novonix did participate and their approval is around the corner . I believe Astrazenca have a foot in the program.


----------



## cainvest

zinfit said:


> Pfizer didn't directly participate brought it did take 2 billion up front money.


Pfizer is a stretch, that was just "pre-order" money.


----------



## zinfit

cainvest said:


> Pfizer is a stretch, that was just "pre-order" money.


It was 2 billion.nice money if you.can get it.


----------



## kcowan

I think our provinces were desperate for good advice and most of the early advice from the Feds was not good E.g. Masks, no leadership in contact tracing and both of these were proven in other countries. Failing to establish controls on foreign visitors. All,proven elsewhere and too much foot dragging by the Feds .


----------



## Money172375

Unfortunately, with both masks and vaccines, we didn’t (don‘t) have the best solution to start. We didn’t have N95 masks, so an alternate inferior (or no) product was the recommendation. Now, we don’t have the best vaccine solution, so an alternate inferior product/strategy is promoted.

local homegrown solutions for essential goods/services, along with health care, should be the biggest issue in every subsequent provincial/federal election


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> I am no fan of Trump but he dis something right it is called " Operation warp speed" . The US government pumped billions into the rapid development of vaccines. No one ever thought it was possible to develop vaccine in that short a time span. No one one ever expected the high rate of effectiveness. *When you get a vaccine shot please stop a second to thank Trump.*


 ... not a shot as it's laughable that the Dump had developed the vaccine because of Operation Warp Speed. He most likely didn't even come up with the idea. We should be actually thanking those behind-the-scenes workers (scientists, doctors, even janitors, etc.) instead of some dumbaxxed politician(s) with their mouthpiece sitting on their higher pedestal, dictating and directing every other lowly human beneath them.


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> ... not a shot as it's laughable that the Dump had developed the vaccine because of Operation Warp Speed. He most likely didn't even come up with the idea. We should be actually thanking those behind-the-scenes workers (scientists, doctors, even janitors, etc.) instead of some dumbaxxed politician(s) with their mouthpiece sitting on their higher pedestal, dictating and directing every other lowly human beneath them.


Partially right but it took the President to give the green light and the funding which I believe was 10 billion. Pence and his covid team worked with the pharma group to develop this program. The biggest challenge was getting clinical trials in place and working. That involves a lot of capital.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> Partially right but it took the President to give the green light and the funding which I believe was 10 billion. Pence and his covid team worked with the pharma group to develop this program. The biggest challenge was getting clinical trials in place and working. *That involves a lot of capital.*


 ... and I don't suppose that capital came primarily from those employed at the WH?


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> ... and I don't suppose that capital came primarily from those employed at the WH?


Not sure about were you are going. There was a decision at the government level to go with an accelerated vaccine development program . Were did the capital come from ? the government. Who developed the vaccines? scientists Not sure there is much more that can be said except it took a co-ordinated partnership between the government and the private sector. I understand you detest Trump . I have no use for Trump either but I have to call a spade a spade.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> Not sure about were you are going. There was a decision at the government level to go with an accelerated vaccine development program . *Were did the capital come from ? the government. *Who developed the vaccines? scientists Not sure there is much more that can be said except it took a co-ordinated partnership between the government and the private sector. I understand you detest Trump . I have no use for Trump either but I have to call a spade a spade.


 ... so where are you going with your post? Who is the "government"? Trump or the American taxpayers? 

If you want to give your thanks to Trump, by all means. But also don't forget to thank him too for the expenditures of that Wall, not that it matters to us northern country of the USA.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Thankfully we had a better government that Trump & Republicans, who plunged the US into total chaos until Biden brought adults back into the White House.
> 
> Trump is responsible for several hundred thousand unnecessary deaths. A deadly level of incompetence. And the US has consistently had a higher rate of death than Canada.


As did most of Europe, which had much more rigorous federal control than Canada.

The issues in the US are far more fundamental than Trump




> We may not have the most optimal government (like New Zealand) but let's also not lose sight, that we have been doing OK through the pandemic. I think what's worked against us are the fragmented provincial health authorities.


New Zealand is a very unique country, I don't think they have "optimal" government.
they have a very small population in a small geographic area, and much more similar concerns.
It's harder to manage Ontario, it's much larger, and much more diverse, with dramatically different needs.


----------



## Eclectic12

zinfit said:


> I am no fan of Trump but he dis something right it is called " Operation warp speed" . The US government pumped billions into the rapid development of vaccines. No one ever thought it was possible to develop vaccine in that short a time span. No one one ever expected the high rate of effectiveness. When you get a vaccine shot please stop a second to thank Trump.


Not sure why people like taking a complicated situation and making it all or nothing.

What I recall is a range of responses. Some like Trump expecting a vaccine that quickly, more citing the new tech as well as previous SARS work as to why they though the time frame was possible, more saying they were hopeful but doubted it would be that fast and some claiming all attempts at a coronavirus vaccine in the past had failed so they expect failure yet again.

As for the time frame of a year, anyone like me who checked would have found multiple examples of vaccines developed in under a year without a Warp Speed like program, except the part about placing orders for vaccine.




zinfit said:


> ... it took the President to give the green light ...


Not sure what the green light was needed for considering Moderna's first clinical batch was shipped in Feb 2020 with NIH approval for study with the first study starting in March, well before the May 15th Operation Warp Speed announcement Pfizer's first study was closer to the the announcement but was also ahead of it.

Lots of candidates were in progress world wide so clearly lots of companies were working long before the green light.




zinfit said:


> ... The biggest challenge was getting clinical trials in place and working. That involves a lot of capital.


Yes funding for the clinical trials is a big deal ... as evidenced by the Canadian vaccines slowed down by a lack of funding.

At the same time, it begs the question of how the under a year vaccines from previous years were able to make do without a similar program.


Cheers


----------



## sags

Got an appointment for April 18 for a vaccination. There are a few openings from then on.

So, if the 70s and over are starting to drop off with appointments in late April, maybe they can move it on down to the 65s.


----------



## gibor365

Curious what is going on with 1.5M AZ that arrived yesterday! I bet that if not those 1.5M, Canada would suspend AZ at all for everyone.
My brother lives in UK, his wife is a nurse, she got 1st AZ shot couple of month ago....after shot she had huge headaches and said that she is not going to have 2nd shot...
I personally curious what FDA's conclusion about AZ, I don't trust Canadian "health experts" that change their mind on a daily basis


----------



## like_to_retire

So it didn't take a genius to see this coming. And I suspect fairly soon they'll modify the interval for everyone. I've got a great suggestion for those in charge - read and follow the label on medicine bottles.

Ontario revises 2nd vaccine dose timeline for transplant, some cancer patients.

_"The Ontario government confirms it has revised the second vaccine dose timeline for some immunocompromised people."
"An advisory group says it will reevaluate the interval between doses as more evidence becomes available and vaccine-supply forecasts are updated."_

ltr


----------



## Money172375

Peel just opened up to 65+ today. Got my mom an appointment on Monday. She has lymphoma. Hopefully this is sorted out soon.

I will say that once an age opens up, you can get appointments in Peel quick. In my region, appointments are 2-3 weeks out from when the announcements are made to accept new ages.


----------



## Money172375

like_to_retire said:


> So it didn't take a genius to see this coming. And I suspect fairly soon they'll modify the interval for everyone. I've got a great suggestion for those in charge - read and follow the label on medicine bottles.
> 
> Ontario revises 2nd vaccine dose timeline for transplant, some cancer patients.
> 
> _"The Ontario government confirms it has revised the second vaccine dose timeline for some immunocompromised people."
> "An advisory group says it will reevaluate the interval between doses as more evidence becomes available and vaccine-supply forecasts are updated."_
> 
> ltr


If anyone knows how this will work, please let me know, how do you prove you qualify or have cancer? My mom has first shot Monday. Thanks


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Peel just opened up to 65+ today. Got my mom an appointment on Monday. She has lymphoma. Hopefully this is sorted out soon.
> 
> I will say that once an age opens up, you can get appointments in Peel quick. In my region, appointments are 2-3 weeks out from when the announcements are made to accept new ages.


Do you tell you what vaccine she gonna get?


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> @MrMatt may not agree, but I think even from a technical standpoint, maximizing public buy-in and confidence is better for the public health result than delivering as many doses as possible in the next 3 weeks.


@MrMatt may not agree, but I think even from a technical standpoint, maximizing public buy-in and confidence is better for the public health result than delivering as many doses as possible in the next 3 weeks.
[/QUOTE]

I agree and don't agree.
If our goal was to get everyone vaccinated, maximizing public buy in and confidence is important.

However, right now the goal is to get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible.
With that as the goal, we should simply skip over the picky people and vaccinate the willing.

The whole concern seems founded on a poor understanding of math and media hype.

That's why an educated populace is so important.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> However, right now the goal is to get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible.
> With that as the goal, we should simply skip over the picky people and vaccinate the willing.


I also agree with that. For example I don't see why there should be any pause for vaccinating men with the AZ shot. There has never been any serious/weird blood clots reported in men, right?


----------



## sags

Actually there were at least a couple men who developed the dangerous blood clots.

I believe in Germany,......one middle aged and one older men.

The blood clots do seem to effect women mostly though.


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> Do you tell you what vaccine she gonna get?


No, but my dad got Pfizer at the same location last week.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Actually there were at least a couple men who developed the dangerous blood clots.
> 
> I believe in Germany,......one middle aged and one older men.
> 
> The blood clots do seem to effect women mostly though.


Most likely they were.
I'd bet in the last month several dozen people developed dangerous blood clots. This happens all the time.
That's what I don't understand, it's not really that unusual to see a problem like this, and we're talking really really really rare occurances.


----------



## gibor365

_In Germany, 2.7 million people have received the AstraZeneca vaccine, this puts the chance of getting a blood clot at about one in 100,000, as opposed to a one in a million chance,according to the World Health Organization (WHO). The European Medicines Agency shared similar data, with 25 people out of 20 million developing blood clots. _
From my understanding similar % is dying from Covid in those age brackets.... So, it's everyone's choice, to do or not to do... also, don't forget that AZ efficiency is much lower than Pfizer, Morerna or Spitnik V


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> No, but my dad got Pfizer at the same location last week.


It doesn't mean anything , my MIL who lives in senior house at Halton got Pfizer, my mom who lives in another senior house in the same Halton, got Moderna 6 days later (as they told he "that's what we have"). My MIL, btw, got later that she gonna get 2md shot Apr 9... Hopefully my mom also won;t need to wait ridiculous 4 months to get vaccine


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> _In Germany, 2.7 million people have received the AstraZeneca vaccine, this puts the chance of getting a blood clot at about one in 100,000, as opposed to a one in a million chance,according to the World Health Organization (WHO). The European Medicines Agency shared similar data, with 25 people out of 20 million developing blood clots. _
> From my understanding similar % is dying from Covid in those age brackets.... So, it's everyone's choice, to do or not to do... also, don't forget that AZ efficiency is much lower than Pfizer, Morerna or Spitnik V


Intersting that you didn't provide the link to your source there, or how many in Germany got blood clots.

But your quote says 25 cases out of 20 million, which is really close to the 1 in a million chance. 
So 5 extra cases, out of 20 million? That's a 1 in 4 million shot of being the "extra" blood clot.
That's also assuming that an extra 5 cases wasn't just normal data scatter.

So yeah, your post is an unfounded claim, followed by data saying it's not a problem. Good job.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> Intersting that you didn't provide the link to your source there, or how many in Germany got blood clots.
> 
> But your quote says 25 cases out of 20 million, which is really close to the 1 in a million chance.
> So 5 extra cases, out of 20 million? That's a 1 in 4 million shot of being the "extra" blood clot.
> That's also assuming that an extra 5 cases wasn't just normal data scatter.
> 
> So yeah, your post is an unfounded claim, followed by data saying it's not a problem. Good job.


Nothing interesting....
see below ctvnews link








AstraZeneca pause could slow Canada's COVID-19 vaccine rollout


Concerns over data showing instances of rare blood clotting out of Germany could make Canadians hesitant to get the AstraZeneca vaccine, leading to longer waits for the Pfizer and Moderna shots.




www.ctvnews.ca





As per same article _31 people in Germany developed blood clots after receiving the AstraZeneca vaccine, nine of them died. _


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Nothing interesting....
> see below ctvnews link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AstraZeneca pause could slow Canada's COVID-19 vaccine rollout
> 
> 
> Concerns over data showing instances of rare blood clotting out of Germany could make Canadians hesitant to get the AstraZeneca vaccine, leading to longer waits for the Pfizer and Moderna shots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As per same article _31 people in Germany developed blood clots after receiving the AstraZeneca vaccine, nine of them died. _


From YOUR link.
The general adult population has a one in 1,000 chance of developing a blood clot in a given year. This is 100 times more likely than the risk associated with the AstraZeneca vaccine.

Yeah 9 out of 2.7 million people died from blood clots after taking the AZ vaccine.
That's 3 in a mllion, which again is tiny.


----------



## cainvest

This is interesting ...

_Based on the numbers reported to the agency so far, there have been 4.8 cases of the rare blood clots per million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine administered. For the BioNTech vaccine, based on the same criteria, it was 0.2 cases per million._


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> This is interesting ...
> 
> _Based on the numbers reported to the agency so far, there have been 4.8 cases of the rare blood clots per million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine administered. For the BioNTech vaccine, based on the same criteria, it was 0.2 cases per million._


Yeah, I think the answer will lie in the relevant rates when the vaccines are compared.

It's true that blood clots always happen in the general population, but it's easy enough to count the number of incidents per vaccination given, and compare the vaccines. It does appear (from what I'm reading) that more blood clots are happening among those getting AZ.

That's a problem. More study is needed.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Yeah, I think the answer will lie in the relevant rates when the vaccines are compared.
> 
> It's true that blood clots always happen in the general population, but it's easy enough to count the number of incidents per vaccination given, and compare the vaccines. It does appear (from what I'm reading) that more blood clots are happening among those getting AZ.
> 
> That's a problem. More study is needed.


But it's a really really really small problem.
As the articles that try to explain the stats, but people don't get it.

2 in a million is like the odds of being struck by lightening.

There is some data that suggests there might be a slightly elevated chance.
But we're talking about less than a handful of incidents per million, and there are likely a lot of confounding factors.

Maybe people who spent months under lockdown didn't get as much physical activity, leading to an increase in various ailments, including blood clots. 








Exercise Can Help Dissolve Blood Clots


For obese people, regular exercise helps dissolve blood clots, which are more common in overweight people.




www.webmd.com





And we're looking at incredibly small numbers. I'm not saying there isn't a relation, but the risks are miniscule.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> And we're looking at incredibly small numbers. I'm not saying there isn't a relation, but the risks are miniscule.


The more recent German finding was more like 1 in 100,000. Those aren't tiny odds.

The important thing with a vaccine is to consider the danger of the vaccine vs the danger of the disease. COVID is incredibly dangerous to people over 60, but really not particularly deadly to people under 40.

It makes sense to be careful about the danger of the vaccine.


----------



## andrewf

zinfit said:


> I am no fan of Trump but he dis something right it is called " Operation warp speed" . The US government pumped billions into the rapid development of vaccines. No one ever thought it was possible to develop vaccine in that short a time span. No one one ever expected the high rate of effectiveness. When you get a vaccine shot please stop a second to thank Trump.


Can Trump take credit for all the global vaccines? If not, does he deserve credit for any, or would they have happened anyway?


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Can Trump take credit for all the global vaccines? If not, does he deserve credit for any, or would they have happened anyway?


No doubt that Trump speed up vaccines approval


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> No doubt that Trump speed up vaccines approval


Trump caused other jurisdictions to approve vaccines faster? Russia approved Sputnik vaccine because Trump said so? There was pretty strong incentive globally to fast-track approvals. It's not about 'orange man bad'. It's just not credible for any one politician to take credit for global vaccine development.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Trump caused other jurisdictions to approve vaccines faster? Russia approved Sputnik vaccine because Trump said so? There was pretty strong incentive globally to fast-track approvals. It's not about 'orange man bad'. It's just not credible for any one politician to take credit for global vaccine development.


And Germany funded the Pfizer vaccine. Not the US.

Trump was a monster who downplayed the seriousness of the disaster, told the public it didn't exist, and encouraged reckless behaviour... both in the White House and across the US. He discouraged and even mocked the use of masks. He muzzled scientists and deliberately kept the serious nature of the pandemic a *secret*.

Hundreds of thousands of people have died, unnecessarily, due to Trump. His failings as a leader are beyond shocking. This guy caused very significant harm to the US, not only the worst / stupidest president in modern times, but also the president who cost the most American lives.


----------



## Eder

A lot died due to Trudope as well. Cost most canadian lives.


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> And Germany funded the Pfizer vaccine. Not the US.
> 
> Trump was a monster who downplayed the seriousness of the disaster, told the public it didn't exist, and encouraged reckless behaviour... both in the White House and across the US. He discouraged and even mocked the use of masks. He muzzled scientists and deliberately kept the serious nature of the pandemic a *secret*.
> 
> Hundreds of thousands of people have died, unnecessarily, due to Trump. His failings as a leader are beyond shocking. This guy caused very significant harm to the US, not only the worst / stupidest president in modern times, but also the president who cost the most American lives.


I agree and history will show that is why he lost a very close presidential election.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> And Germany funded the Pfizer vaccine. Not the US.
> 
> Trump was a monster who downplayed the seriousness of the disaster, told the public it didn't exist, and encouraged reckless behaviour... both in the White House and across the US. He discouraged and even mocked the use of masks. He muzzled scientists and deliberately kept the serious nature of the pandemic a *secret*.
> 
> Hundreds of thousands of people have died, unnecessarily, due to Trump. His failings as a leader are beyond shocking. This guy caused very significant harm to the US, not only the worst / stupidest president in modern times, but also the president who cost the most American lives.


Trump was expecting COVID to be gone by Easter.... a year ago. What a joker.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> A lot died due to Trudope as well. Cost most canadian lives.


No government has acquited itself perfectly. But the fact that the USA has 3x the deaths per capita as Canada is testament to the fact that taking it seriously makes a difference.


----------



## sags

zinfit said:


> I agree and history will show that is why he lost a very close presidential election.


It wasn't that close. The margin of victory was more than when Trump beat Clinton.


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> It wasn't that close. The margin of victory was more than when Trump beat Clinton.


yes Trump beat Clinton by a small number of votes.


----------



## Eder

andrewf said:


> No government has acquited itself perfectly. But the fact that the USA has 3x the deaths per capita as Canada is testament to the fact that taking it seriously makes a difference.


Yes but some areas did remarkably better in the USA. The fact is each state is responsible for their Covid response the same as each province, look at how Cuomo in NY was so deranged he might as well have been shooting his constituents.. James is off base blaming Trump, that's why I posted on Trudopes response. In the meantime vaccines have been quickly developed, todays Economist paid some tribute to Trumps part in the vaccine speed of development...meanwhile Trudeau did nothing other than teaming up with China.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> Yes but some areas did remarkably better in the USA. The fact is each state is responsible for their Covid response the same as each province, look at how Cuomo in NY was so deranged he might as well have been shooting his constituents.. James is off base blaming Trump, that's why I posted on Trudopes response. In the meantime vaccines have been quickly developed, todays Economist paid some tribute to Trumps part in the vaccine speed of development...meanwhile Trudeau did nothing other than teaming up with China.


Trump made it political, which was decidedly unhelpful. While the US was in a tizzy of partisan posturing, governments and parties in Canada were conveying a message of unity and solidarity. The president doesn't control all the levers of public policy but he plays a large role in setting the tone. Trump continually downplayed the seriousness of the pandemic and suggested it would go away on its own. He refused to be photographed wearing a mask for many months, and said that 'he wouldn't do it'. This is just basic negligence. I'm baffled that the right wing hates on the public health doctors for initially advising against masks, while supporting Trump who was continuing to denigrate mask-wearing for months after the consensus formed that mask-wearing was overall beneficial.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Trump caused other jurisdictions to approve vaccines faster? Russia approved Sputnik vaccine because Trump said so? There was pretty strong incentive globally to fast-track approvals. It's not about 'orange man bad'. It's just not credible for any one politician to take credit for global vaccine development.


Don't compare with Russia..... It's another independent superpower , but sure, Trump pushed to approve Pfizer and Moderna vaccine earlier. If you noted, Health Canada approved vaccine 1-2 weeks before FDA (or UK/EU in AZ case) does it


----------



## andrewf

Russia is a has-been. It isn't a superpower. It tried to keep up with the US for a while and by the 1980s it became clear it was totally eclipsed. Now China has also far eclipsed it. And the EU, but for how decentralized it is, is threatening Russia to the West.

I mean, Russia's economy is smaller than Canada's. Is Canada a superpower? 

Russia has joined the UK in the 'former empire' club.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Russia is a has-been. It isn't a superpower. It tried to keep up with the US for a while and by the 1980s it became clear it was totally eclipsed. Now China has also far eclipsed it. And the EU, but for how decentralized it is, is threatening Russia to the West.
> 
> I mean, Russia's economy is smaller than Canada's. Is Canada a superpower?
> 
> Russia has joined the UK in the 'former empire' club.


Obviously it is! Yes, during Boris Eltzin in 90's it dropped a lot, but since then By Military strength indicators Russia is #2 in the World (just after US), Canada on 20 or 21th place depending on the source. Russia is considered 8 times stronger than Canada...


----------



## Eder

CDC director Walensky said today that:



> _*"Our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus."*_


Which would appear to imply that vaccinated people therefore cannot spread the virus (you can't spread what you can't carry) and thus, vaccinated people should have no need to wear a mask or adhere to draconian distancing rules.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> CDC director Walensky said today that:
> 
> 
> Which would appear to imply that vaccinated people therefore cannot spread the virus (you can't spread what you can't carry) and thus, vaccinated people should have no need to wear a mask or adhere to draconian distancing rules.


but still have to be 3 days in hotel-quarantine for 2K and 11 more days at home quarantine...
btw, today is day 8th that I didn't get my test results ... I assume that I'd be still in "hotel-quarantine" LOL


----------



## cainvest

Eder said:


> CDC director Walensky said today that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*"Our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus."*_
> 
> 
> 
> Which would appear to imply that vaccinated people therefore cannot spread the virus (you can't spread what you can't carry) and thus, vaccinated people should have no need to wear a mask or adhere to draconian distancing rules.
Click to expand...

Which would appear to imply that vaccinated people are now 100% safe from catching covid! I guess we can throw out all that silly efficacy % talk now.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> James is off base blaming Trump


No, I'm on-base. Trump screwed the United States and is responsible for hundreds of thousands of American deaths.

He was the greatest threat, the greatest enemy of America in modern times.

Yeah I get it. He talks like you, he acts like you... but sorry dude, he's a horrible person and responsible for countless American deaths. Finally, his selfishness and incompetence got many thousands of people killed.


----------



## Eder

cainvest said:


> Which would appear to imply that vaccinated people are now 100% safe from catching covid! I guess we can throw out all that silly efficacy % talk now.


Not my words... its the CDC director.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> The more recent German finding was more like 1 in 100,000. Those aren't tiny odds.
> 
> The important thing with a vaccine is to consider the danger of the vaccine vs the danger of the disease. COVID is incredibly dangerous to people over 60, but really not particularly deadly to people under 40.
> 
> It makes sense to be careful about the danger of the vaccine.


Care to support the claim? I haven't seen that "finding"
You realize that there are many studies showing that there is no increased risk. When you have multiple studies, with conflicting results, it is important to read the details.

Yes 1 in 100k is tiny odds, particularly when an annual rate of 1 in 1k is "normal"


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> No, I'm on-base. Trump screwed the United States and is responsible for hundreds of thousands of American deaths.
> 
> He was the greatest threat, the greatest enemy of America in modern times.
> 
> Yeah I get it. He talks like you, he acts like you... but sorry dude, *he's a horrible person and responsible for countless American deaths. *Finally, *his selfishness and incompetence got many thousands of people killed.*


 ... starting evidence: Hart Island mass grave.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... starting evidence: Hart Island mass grave.


Sorry, New York was Cuomos fault.

He actively tried to spread COVID19 among vulnerable populations. 

Trump was a buffoon, but there is only so much the US Federal government can do. States have rights.


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> but still have to be 3 days in hotel-quarantine for 2K and 11 more days at home quarantine...
> btw, today is day 8th that I didn't get my test results ... I assume that I'd be still in "hotel-quarantine" LOL


 ... that hotel quarantine (2 grands, pffft) is a drop in a bucket given the multiple excursions out of the country you desperately need.

And tomorrow will be the 9th day you're at home quarantine, the next is the 10th ... or until the 365th day ... do you not have a phone to follow up on? 

Or you gonna to sit there on your computer, posting "today is the "nth" day I ain't got my Covid test result" ... LOLOLOLOL ...


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Sorry, New York was Cuomos fault.
> 
> He actively tried to spread COVID19 among vulnerable populations.
> 
> Trump was a buffoon, but there is only so much the US Federal government can do. States have rights.


... didn't the (now an ex) POTUS have executive orders to use?


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... didn't the (now an ex) POTUS have executive orders to use?


Yes, but exactly what do you want the executive order to say?
Would it be legal?
How would it be enforced, remember several states were trying to get Federal law enforcement out of their states.


----------



## MrMatt

Here's one for the anti-vaxxers.
Even the doctor who found the blood clot issue thinks it's a non issue when deciding to get vaccinated.


> His message is clear: While there is a risk of having an adverse reaction to the AstraZeneca vaccine, *the risk is so small that people shouldn’t be concerned about getting the vaccine.*
> 
> “To stop or to avoid vaccination, only for the fear of getting an extremely rare, adverse reaction would be completely wrong.”











What the doctor who found the link between blood clots and the AstraZeneca vaccine wants you to know


Dr. Andreas Greinacher discovered the link between the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine and rare, severe blood clots, and he wants people to know it’s still safe to get the jab.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Obviously it is! Yes, during Boris Eltzin in 90's it dropped a lot, but since then By Military strength indicators Russia is #2 in the World (just after US), Canada on 20 or 21th place depending on the source. Russia is considered 8 times stronger than Canada...


Russia chooses to maintain the pretense of being a military power while its people drink themselves to death, and they decriminalize wife beating.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Russia chooses to maintain the pretense of being a military power while its people drink themselves to death, and they decriminalize wife beating.


While we give increasingly large handouts to stay at home and smoke legal pot.

No wonder Chinas influence is growing.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Russia chooses to maintain the pretense of being a military power while its people drink themselves to death, and they decriminalize wife beating.


It's really horrendous, the rampant alcoholism in Russia. All these drunk Russian men on a rampage, beating their wives.

"World power" my a** ... this is a third world country led by a dictator who has embezzled incredible amounts of money, stealing from the impoverished public.

A quarter of Russian men die before reaching age 55. This is unbelievable. Compared to just 7% in the UK.

It's not at all surprising to me that the type of person who admires a third world dictator (Putin) would also admire Trump. Both men do a good job ruining their countries and stealing the public's money, to enrich themselves and their friends.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Yes, but exactly what do you want the executive order to say?
> Would it be legal?


 ... whatever good-will the ex-POTUS had wanted to say (provided if he had any.) Besides, I'm sure he can make something up since he so good with his mouth + Twitters.


> How would it be enforced, remember several states were trying to get Federal law enforcement out of their states.


 ... that's laughable ... where's Mike, the advisors, the rest of the Republican party? How about some innovations there? Besides, I didn't know that the "United" States of American ran on a state level? So exactly what's the job of the POTUS?


----------



## Eclectic12

If you aren't aware that the states run what happens to a large degree, you clearly don't know much about the US.

There's the Federal taxes, including tax treaties like the one with Canada. There's state taxes where multiple states ignore the tax treaty with Canada to tax what the US Feds allow to be deferred taxes. Then there can also be city taxes (likely with the option for the city to ignore what the Feds negotiated).


You haven't heard Americans talking about how what the Feds are proposing, voting on or passed as being a violation of state rights?


Cheers


*PS*
Did you think the wide range of voting practices, requirements and so on for the presidential election would exist if the Feds had the power to set a standard?


----------



## Beaver101

^ I admit I don't know much about the USA 'cause I don't care to know. Even I have relatives living there. Ignorance here is bliss for me.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ^ I admit I don't know much about the USA 'cause I don't care to know. Even I have relatives living there. Ignorance here is bliss for me.


So you admit you're ignorant on how the US works, yet you feel entitled to give opinions on what should be done.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> So you admit you're ignorant on how the US works, yet you feel entitled to give opinions on what should be done.


 ... I never "gave" my opinion on "what should be done" (other than "asking" whether a POTUS can make use of executive orders since he's so good at that already).

Since you're so good on how the US (political systems - be accurate) works, feel free to give all your opinions. I admit I don't care for it since I'm not an American and I don't pay taxes into it. The Americans and its leader can run it into the ground for all I care.


----------



## like_to_retire

They appear to be moving pretty fast with the vaccines now.

All of Ontario just lowered the age today to 55 for pharmacy vaccinations of Astrazeneca.

Who knows what happens in the next step to age 50 since Astrazeneca is still under review. Will they substitute J&J?









COVID-19 pharmacy vaccine locations


Find your closest pharmacy to get the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine if you are age 60 to 64.




covid-19.ontario.ca





ltr


----------



## Eder

J&J had to dump about 14 million potential shots yesterday. They promised Uncle Biden that the US will get all their shots on time in spite of the problem, most likely Canada won't see their J&J any time soon.

Some good news too








Pfizer and BioNTech say their COVID-19 vaccine is safe and highly effective -- including against South Africa variant


There was welcome news on the COVID-19 vaccine front Thursday, as Pfizer Inc. and German partner BioNTech SE said a follow-up study of their vaccine found it...




www.marketwatch.com





The vaccine also proved to be 100% effective in preventing COVID-19 cases when used against the South African variant, which is more infectious than the original virus. Experts have worried that new variants might prove more resistant to the vaccines that have won emergency use authorization from regulators.


----------



## Eclectic12

Beaver101 said:


> ... I admit I don't know much about the USA 'cause I don't care to know. Even I have relatives living there. Ignorance here is bliss for me.


Then I guess you didn't live near the US border and have tons of US content, including educational segments beamed your way.

At times, I have checked with my US relatives for finer points but major ones were hard to avoid.

I'd guess you weren't paying attention to the details of the electrical problems in Texas as many of the articles I saw were pointing out that Texas runs it's own, independent grid with only a few, tiny connections to avoid the Feds. Texplainer: Why does Texas have its own power grid?

'Course with friends of my parents from NB being in Houston with their son, I was curious.


Cheers


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Russia chooses to maintain the pretense of being a military power while its people drink themselves to death, and they decriminalize wife beating.


Being superpower is nothing to do with amount of drinking or with amount of weed consumed (btw, Cannabis in Russia is illegal) or with deaths from fentanyl (see Canada and US)


----------



## gibor365

No more lockdowns – Britain will treat Covid like flu, says Chris Whitty


Accepting some virus deaths is price of allowing people to live a 'whole life', says chief medical officer




www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> No more lockdowns – Britain will treat Covid like flu, says Chris Whitty
> 
> 
> Accepting some virus deaths is price of allowing people to live a 'whole life', says chief medical officer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.telegraph.co.uk


Of course ... after everyone gets the vaccine.


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> No more lockdowns – Britain will treat Covid like flu, says Chris Whitty
> 
> 
> Accepting some virus deaths is price of allowing people to live a 'whole life', says chief medical officer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.telegraph.co.uk


I think much of Europe is past their third wave. I suspect you’ll see the same here Once our 3rd wave passes,


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> It's really horrendous, the rampant alcoholism in Russia. .


Alcohol consumption in Russia is less than in Germany, Ireland, Czech, Luxemburg , France, Portugal, Belgium and many other countries
As per List of countries by alcohol consumption per capita - Wikipedia


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> Alcohol consumption in Russia is less than in Germany, Ireland, Czech, Luxemburg , France, Portugal, Belgium and many other countries
> As per List of countries by alcohol consumption per capita - Wikipedia


He said Alcoholism, not consumption ....

_Russia has the highest prevalence of alcohol use disorders overall.
Alcoholism by Country 2021_


----------



## Eder

Don't ruin a good story gibor, Russia bad, USA bad, China good, ... OK?


----------



## Eder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1376950399232573442


----------



## Money172375

The age limits keep getting lowered and quickly. Starting 60+ appointments tomorrow in some areas of Ontario. Feels like it was 75+ two weeks ago.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1376950399232573442


If you can catch COVID19 from a door handle, you can catch it from a handshake.
Really if an inanimate metal object can spread COVID19 a person walking around can too.

If you can't catch it from a door handle, why does everyone want us using hand sanitizer?

I'm really concerned that all this "vaccinated means not a risk" is going to increase risky behaviour


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> The age limits keep getting lowered and quickly. Starting 60+ appointments tomorrow in some areas of Ontario. Feels like it was 75+ two weeks ago.


Something with the age progression isn't adding up to me.
They're vaccinating healthcare workers, and they seem to be dropping the age very fast, and have high claims of vaccination rates, but they're still suggesting we won't be done until the fall.

I'm not sure what's going on


----------



## 307169

MrMatt said:


> Something with the age progression isn't adding up to me.
> They're vaccinating healthcare workers, and they seem to be dropping the age very fast, and have high claims of vaccination rates, but they're still suggesting we won't be done until the fall.
> 
> I'm not sure what's going on


The government (both federal and provincial) are low balling the speed of vaccination in order to make themselves look better when they are "ahead of schedule".

And JT is rushing to vaccinate everyone so he can have a snap election, the NDP is broke, and the Tories are quickly turning into a prairie party, where the old PC is completely gone.


----------



## Eder

MrMatt said:


> If you can catch COVID19 from a door handle, you can catch it from a handshake.
> Really if an inanimate metal object can spread COVID19 a person walking around can too.


You cant spread if you're poked...of course there are those that want to be locked down forever...no solution to that. I prefer to get back to normality in 37 more days. Suit yourself I guess.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> Don't ruin a good story gibor, Russia bad, USA bad, China good, ... OK?


OK


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> You cant spread if you're poked...of course there are those that want to be locked down forever...no solution to that. I prefer to get back to normality in 37 more days. Suit yourself I guess.


If you can't spread if you've been vaccinated, obviously inanimate objects can't spread it either. So why all the hand sanitizer?

I want to go back to normal now, but I've been saying for months that lying to people and spreading misinformation isn't helping.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> If you can't spread if you've been vaccinated, obviously inanimate objects can't spread it either. So why all the hand sanitizer?
> 
> I want to go back to normal now, but I've been saying for months that lying to people and spreading misinformation isn't helping.


The Pfizer data and research from Israel shows that fully vaccinated people are not asymptomatic and the risk of transmission is virtually zero. Moderna doesn't the data that Pfizer has the . Fauci believes if they could do the same type of research Moderna would be very similar. Astrazenca and JNJ are probably a different story.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Eder said:


> You cant spread if you're poked...of course there are those that want to be locked down forever...no solution to that. I prefer to get back to normality in 37 more days. Suit yourself I guess.
> 
> View attachment 21507


These are great observations. Thanks for that.

We all know that Texas was a poster child for bad behavior so it is nice to see the vaccine overpower that. I would worry that warmer weather might be playing a part but Texas is pretty warm all the time...except this year of course. I think their colder then usual weather probably explains the little spike in February, but as Eder alludes, the vaccine killed it.

We are seeing this in Israel and the UK and even most parts of the US. Anywhere vaccination has been conducted in high numbers we are seeing an absence of a 3rd wave...even with the new variants.

So good news for 2021. Make sure you sign up for vaccination. They all work. They will all keep you alive.


----------



## agent99

Eder said:


> You cant spread if you're poked...of course there are those that want to be locked down forever...no solution to that. I prefer to get back to normality in 37 more days. Suit yourself I guess.
> 
> View attachment 21507


Do you think that those Texas numbers are good? Do a check - the number of cases per million are still above the US average and higher than almost all countries in the World.


----------



## agent99

double post


----------



## OptsyEagle

agent99 said:


> Do you think that those Texas numbers are good? Do a check - the number of cases per million are still above the US average and higher than almost all countries in the World.


and yet, they are still coming down.

I think the post was to illustrate the power of the vaccine. The miracle of immunity.


----------



## Eclectic12

MrMatt said:


> Something with the age progression isn't adding up to me.
> They're vaccinating healthcare workers, and they seem to be dropping the age very fast, and have high claims of vaccination rates, but they're still suggesting we won't be done until the fall.
> 
> I'm not sure what's going on


I'm not sure which claims of high vaccination rates but around here, the LTC workers are only at about 50% vaccinated because of the workers refusing the vaccine.
I was confused why this would be until I noticed a lot of them are from countries that had vaccine scandals and/or heavily use FB to stay in contact with family back home so the "covid vaccines are not vaccine" etc. videos are constantly in their feeds.

For the LTC around the corner, all residents have been vaccinated where multiple times there was an onsite vaccination clinic for staff (i.e. availability is not the issue). According to my friend, management is repeatedly offering the vaccine as this LTC has a significantly lower take up rate than the area's 50% rate.

It wouldn't surprise me that there may be the same reluctance in hospitals for similar reasons. Throw in more doses arriving and it may be that the age is dropping to use up doses that might otherwise expire.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12

OptsyEagle said:


> and yet, they are still coming down.
> 
> I think the post was to illustrate the power of the vaccine. The miracle of immunity.


Interesting how for some, the declining Texas rates are proof Canadian lockdowns don't work but for others, it is proof the vaccines are working.

Cheers


----------



## cainvest

Eclectic12 said:


> Interesting how for some, the declining Texas rates are proof Canadian lockdowns don't work but for others, it is proof the vaccines are working.


Also that some can draw conclusions based on a few data points ... often there is many things to consider that are not displayed on a simple graph.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Also that some can draw conclusions based on a few data points ... often there is many things to consider that are not displayed on a simple graph.


That is why we can always see precisely whatever it is we want to see. Today, I decided to see a glimmer of hope. To be honest. I have absolutely no idea what that graph really illustrates. It certainly did not look like bad news anyway.


----------



## s1231

Eclectic12 said:


> Interesting how for some, the declining Texas rates are proof Canadian lockdowns don't work but for others, it is proof the vaccines are working.
> 
> Cheers


not likely vaccine effects.
- Texas has one of the worst vaccination rates in the U.S. It's reopening 'all businesses' anyway.
Tim O'Donnell March 2, 2021,


https://news.yahoo.com/texas-one-worst-vaccination-rates-213303969.html



- March 14, 2021








Why does Texas rank near last in percentage of residents vaccinated against COVID-19?


Texas officials have blamed the low ranking on many factors: The amount of COVID-19 vaccine doses from the CDC, reporting delays and winter storms.



www.usatoday.com


----------



## Eder

Add travel to the activities vaccinated Americans can enjoy again, according to new U.S. guidance issued today.


The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention updated its guidance to say fully vaccinated people can travel within the U.S. without getting tested for the coronavirus or going into quarantine afterward.



— Vaccinated people should still get a negative COVID-19 test before boarding a flight to the U.S., and be tested three to five days after returning. They do not need to quarantine.


----------



## Eder

s1231 said:


> not likely vaccine effects.
> - Texas has one of the worst vaccination rates in the U.S. It's reopening 'all businesses' anyway.
> Tim O'Donnell March 2, 2021,


Pretty silly...Texas has given over 11 million shots...about double as all of Canada.


----------



## OptsyEagle

This link has a more up to date level of vaccination. They have Texas at 26% of residents vaccinated with at least one dose. They also have warmer weather then we do and we need to take into account all the people that obtained immunity from the natural way...they got infected.









US Coronavirus vaccine tracker


Each state has a different plan — and different challenges — in distributing vaccines. Learn more about who is getting vaccinated by parsing the data by age, sex and race.




usafacts.org


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> That is why we can always see precisely whatever it is we want to see. Today, I decided to see a glimmer of hope. To be honest. I have absolutely no idea what that graph really illustrates. It certainly did not look like bad news anyway.


Well, there's lies, damn lies and statistics.

The problem is that since most people don't understand math, it's easy to throw out numbers and "prove" stuff, particularly since most stuff needs framing to make sense.

Look at the AZ clotting example, a tiny deviation from what's expected, and people are freaking out.
Even if it is as "bad" as people think, it's insignificant. You're more likely to get hit by lightening, and thousands of times more likely to die in a car accident.

But based on the hysteria, you'd think that the AZ vaccine is death in a bottle.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> This link has a more up to date level of vaccination. They have Texas at 26% of residents vaccinated with at least one dose. They also have warmer weather then we do and we need to take into account all the people that obtained immunity from the natural way...they got infected.


I'm also interested in the Texas case study, and I'm sure there will be more thorough studies as time go on.

But let's not forget about the big picture here. The overall rate of death in Texas has been 1680 deaths per 1M pop. Canada has 606 deaths per 1M pop.

Texans have died at nearly *triple* the rate as Canadians. This isn't just a bit worse; it's catastrophically worse. Whatever Texas has been doing (public policy & behaviours) clearly have been the wrong decisions.


----------



## OptsyEagle

But their infection curve currently looks better then ours. At least in direction.

We could beat it to death all day long and not come up with a consensus. These days, anyone should have no problem finding some place where some statistic proves some point they want to make.

I have a pretty good idea what I need to do to stay safe today and tomorrow. At the end of the day, that is about all a person can do. I have pretty much given up on others.


----------



## andrewf

OptsyEagle said:


> That is why we can always see precisely whatever it is we want to see. Today, I decided to see a glimmer of hope. To be honest. I have absolutely no idea what that graph really illustrates. It certainly did not look like bad news anyway.


There's a lot more than a glimmer of hope. I think we see a path out of this now, barring any surprises like a variant that is resistant to the vaccine. Even that should be manageable with the ramp-up of vaccine production capacity.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> There's a lot more than a glimmer of hope. I think we see a path out of this now, barring any surprises like a variant that is resistant to the vaccine. Even that should be manageable with the ramp-up of vaccine production capacity.


I agree, we're definitely on a path to being free from all of this.

The current problem is that the variants are on the loose and there is very high community spread. This is a short term setback, but it's not catastrophic.

It DOES mean however, you absolutely should avoid gatherings of any kind. Don't socialize, don't travel, and I've also switched to stronger masks. I'm now always wearing KN95 or CAN95 when shopping at stores. I'm also even more careful about observing and avoiding others who, for example, have their noses poking out over their masks.


----------



## Eder

james4beach said:


> I'm also interested in the Texas case study, and I'm sure there will be more thorough studies as time go on.
> 
> But let's not forget about the big picture here. The overall rate of death in Texas has been 1680 deaths per 1M pop. Canada has 606 deaths per 1M pop.
> 
> Texans have died at nearly *triple* the rate as Canadians. This isn't just a bit worse; it's catastrophically worse. Whatever Texas has been doing (public policy & behaviours) clearly have been the wrong decisions.


We can't quantify how many total Canadian deaths due to lockdowns & inability to access basic health care...also Texas gets A Medicare add-on payment of 20% for both rural and urban inpatient hospital COVID-19 patients ...good incentive to blame Covid on more deaths I would think.


----------



## agent99

Eder said:


> Pretty silly...Texas has given over 11 million shots...about double as all of Canada.


Sorry data I posted was tests done, not vaccinations. Eder's vaccination figures below are about right. We have just less than 1/2 of Texas vaccinations for about 1/3 larger population.

No question that the roll-out of vaccine in USA far exceeds what is happening in Canada. However, our smaller per capita roll-out, but with restrictions remaining in place may actually be a better situation than a State like Texas with higher per capita roll-out but with restrictions eliminated. They may have to rethink that. Will be interesting to see how that plays out.


----------



## Eder

Perhaps you are mistaken as Canada has administered just over 5 million doses total.
Texas is about 388k/million Canada about 132k/million...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377405297451532288


----------



## gibor365

Canada has 15% more daily cases than no-restrictions Texas, and Canadian' number goes sharply up and Texas' down...


> We can't quantify how many total Canadian deaths due to lockdowns & inability to access basic health care...


I published the numbers of cancelled surgeries, cancelled cancer test and sharply rising number of suicide thoughts due to Covid... Catastrophic!


----------



## gibor365

_Around 59 per cent of adults aged 80 and older have received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine. - _ Just 59%?! I expected much more....
_Although the country has ramped up its vaccination efforts, Colin Furness, an infection control epidemiologist at the University of Toronto, previously told Global News, “it’s not even remotely fast enough.”

Furness said *at the rate of vaccinating 100,000 Canadians per day, it could take Canada 10 months to achieve herd immunity levels.*

Based on those numbers, *if the federal government expects to achieve its vaccine targets by September, Furness said it would need to administer around 400,000 shots per day. *_

And our top performing clown J. Trudeau was telling "*vaccination campaign could wrap up before Septembe*r" and even mentioned July  








These 3 countries are winning the COVID-19 vaccine rollout race. Here’s the result - National | Globalnews.ca


Israel, the U.K. and the U.S. have seen a dramatic change in COVID-19 case counts, hospitalizations and deaths amid the aggressive rollout of vaccines.




globalnews.ca


----------



## james4beach

The latest BC covid Situation Report notes: "Following increasing vaccination rates in the elderly, the number of deaths in 80+ year olds has decreased by 87%" (over 3 months)


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> The latest BC covid Situation Report notes: "Following increasing vaccination rates in the elderly, the number of deaths in 80+ year olds has decreased by 87%" (over 3 months)


Following increasing vaccination rates, and killing a whole bunch of them over the last few months, there have been fewer deaths recently.


----------



## Eder

From the WSJ









Opinion | Dr. Fauci, Tear Off These Masks


If the epidemic continues on its current course, it will be safe to uncover your face by Memorial Day.




www.wsj.com





If the coronavirus epidemic in the U.S. continues on its current trajectory, the need for masks outside particular local outbreak areas will pass in a matter of weeks.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> The latest BC covid Situation Report notes: "Following increasing vaccination rates in the elderly, the number of deaths in 80+ year olds has decreased by 87%" (over 3 months)


Following complete fail with vaccination, maybe this is because not many 80+ still alive?!


----------



## Spudd

I suspect the reason Texas looks so much better than us at the moment is due to 2 reasons: firstly, higher vaccination rates, and secondly, only 7% of their cases are variants of concern whereas over 60% of Ontario cases are variants of concern. The variants seem to be more transmissible.


----------



## Mukhang pera

MrMatt said:


> Following increasing vaccination rates, and killing a whole bunch of them over the last few months, there have been fewer deaths recently.


This wording seems to suggest - and maybe that's its intended meaning - that vaccines have killed off a whole bunch of elderly people lately, allowing it to be said that we are now seeing fewer deaths among the older folks. That's the clear message I hear from those against the vaccines.

I think there will be millions of Canadians refusing to take any vaccine. I spoke to one couple on Vancouver Island yesterday - 84 and 87 years old. I asked, innocently, if they had been vaccinated. The reaction was more ferocious that C-19. They looked at me like I was from the moon for suggesting it. They told me they had done hours of diligent research and were dead sure that the vaccines are lethal, imminical to human life. Their 53-y.o. son readily agreed, as did his healthcare worker wife. 

About 2 weeks ago an acquaintance from Saskatchewan, probably in the 45-55 age range, called and asked if I had been vaccinated. I replied in the negative. He said "Well don't!!!" He urged me not to fall for the device intended to reduce world population by billions. He also spoke of other dark matter, such as someplace in Canada (I can't recall where, I was getting a bit tuned out by that point in the conversation) where some kind of waves will be sent out over the air, from low-level towers near a First Nations reserve, that will immediately sterilize all the young people on the reserve, so they won't be able to reproduce.

And I won't even get into his dire warnings against ever hereafter ever calling 911, despite whatever peril might be faced.

Now, I am keeping quiet about having received my first shot (sorry, modern parlance dictates use of the word "jab") this past week, at a session where those receiving (brainwashed idiots like me) were in the 20-80 or so age group. As has been said, "No one will no you're a fool unless you open your mouth." 

So, it looks like those who have been touting a housing market crash since time out of mind will be delighted by the new order. If world population drops to, say, 1 billion in the next few years, I'll wager there will be some good deals. Not a good time for landlords. Vacancy rates will be on the high side. There will be good business opportunities for those in the business of getting the smell of deceased pro-vaxxers out of all those otherwise vacant units. I would not expect funeral homes (also a good business) to be able to keep up. Watch out for good used car deals as well.


----------



## andrewf

Spudd said:


> I suspect the reason Texas looks so much better than us at the moment is due to 2 reasons: firstly, higher vaccination rates, and secondly, only 7% of their cases are variants of concern whereas over 60% of Ontario cases are variants of concern. The variants seem to be more transmissible.


Not all jurisdictions are in sync with waves. It is entirely possible that Texas sees another wave in a few weeks, after Ontario crests its current wave. The CDC has noted that daily infections are higher now than they have been since February despite increasing vaccination rates in the US. They is why they are asking we hang on a little while longer before ripping off the masks.


----------



## andrewf

Mukhang pera said:


> This wording seems to suggest - and maybe that's its intended meaning - that vaccines have killed off a whole bunch of elderly people lately, allowing it to be said that we are now seeing fewer deaths among the older folks. That's the clear message I hear from those against the vaccines.
> 
> I think there will be millions of Canadians refusing to take any vaccine. I spoke to one couple on Vancouver Island yesterday - 84 and 87 years old. I asked, innocently, if they had been vaccinated. The reaction was more ferocious that C-19. They looked at me like I was from the moon for suggesting it. They told me they had done hours of diligent research and were dead sure that the vaccines are lethal, imminical to human life. Their 53-y.o. son readily agreed, as did his healthcare worker wife.
> 
> About 2 weeks ago an acquaintance from Saskatchewan, probably in the 45-55 age range, called and asked if I had been vaccinated. I replied in the negative. He said "Well don't!!!" He urged me not to fall for the device intended to reduce world population by billions. He also spoke of other dark matter, such as someplace in Canada (I can't recall where, I was getting a bit tuned out by that point in the conversation) where some kind of waves will be sent out over the air, from low-level towers near a First Nations reserve, that will immediately sterilize all the young people on the reserve, so they won't be able to reproduce.
> 
> And I won't even get into his dire warnings against ever hereafter ever calling 911, despite whatever peril might be faced.
> 
> Now, I am keeping quiet about having received my first shot (sorry, modern parlance dictates use of the word "jab") this past week, at a session where those receiving (brainwashed idiots like me) were in the 20-80 or so age group. As has been said, "No one will no you're a fool unless you open your mouth."
> 
> So, it looks like those who have been touting a housing market crash since time out of mind will be delighted by the new order. If world population drops to, say, 1 billion in the next few years, I'll wager there will be some good deals. Not a good time for landlords. Vacancy rates will be on the high side. There will be good business opportunities for those in the business of getting the smell of deceased pro-vaxxers out of all those otherwise vacant units. I would not expect funeral homes (also a good business) to be able to keep up. Watch out for good used car deals as well.


Makes one wonder if there has been a big increase in mental illness caused by the pandemic (and recent political events) or if people have always been crazy but have a much easier time getting 'activated' on social media to believe wild and crazy things.


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> if people have always been crazy but have a much easier time getting 'activated' on social media to believe wild and crazy things.


^^ This IMO.


----------



## Eder

Spudd said:


> I suspect the reason Texas looks so much better than us at the moment is due to 2 reasons: firstly, higher vaccination rates, and secondly, only 7% of their cases are variants of concern whereas over 60% of Ontario cases are variants of concern. The variants seem to be more transmissible.


Unfortunately Texas doesn't typically screen for variants...most likely their numbers are similar to ours.


----------



## agent99

Spudd said:


> I suspect the reason Texas looks so much better than us at the moment


Some of the Texas data is _trending_ better than ours. But overall it is _not_ better than ours. 

For example, they have 97,000 active cases at present in a population of 29Million. Canada as a whole has 54,000 active cases in a population of 39Million. Which one is better?

Their trend lines may justify loosening restrictions just as ours justify tightening restrictions. It will be interesting to compare numbers by end of April. Especially if your point about the variants is true.


----------



## Eder

But the point is not Texas numbers, the point is while Canada remains restricted and locked down, Texas is wide open, back to normal, mask free and with dropping Covid numbers.

Just may show how useless most of our mitigation attempts actually are compared to getting vaccinated.


----------



## Money172375

A friend who Is eligible went for a vaccine today, his wife drove him. She is not technically eligible. After he was done, the wife asked to be put on a ”list”. By the time they got home, there was a message for her to come back and get a shot. I guess once the vaccines are out of the freezer and there are cancellations or no-shows, you might be able to jump the queue. 

I wonder how many cancellations, no-shows and antI-vaxers are impeding the efforts.


----------



## nortel'd

My twin sister and her husband have been at their McAllen, Texas seasonal residence since the end of November. They spent the majority of their time bird watching, social distancing, wearing their “Florida Proto Type 2 with Shop Towel filter ” cloth masks in all indoor establishments, and sanitising/washing their hands.

Their senior living park never lost power or water pressure during the Texas cold snap. Sadly, the vegetation suffered extensive frost damage. 

They were planning on driving back to Canada on March 25 until as “residents of Hidalgo County, Texas” they were offered a chance at getting a series of Moderna shots. Their first shot on March 05 with second on April 01. They are now fully vaccinated against Covid-19 and each has a laminated CDC vaccination record as proof.

The B-I-L breezed through both shots with no side effects. On the other hand, after the first shot my sister suffered for two days with the worst headache ever and had to take Tylenol extra strength for relief. At day five, vertigo had her head in spinning mode for the next three days. 

The second shot, so far, has caused only a slight but manageable headache and sis and B-I-L are packed and ready to leave tomorrow morning.

They plan to stop at a friend’s place in Columbus, Ohio to stock up with 14 days of supplies, get a PCR test and if they pass then boot it to Fort Erie for more headaches and a 14 day quarantine. BTW their American friends are fully vaccinated but with Pfizer.


----------



## MrMatt

Mukhang pera said:


> This wording seems to suggest - and maybe that's its intended meaning - that vaccines have killed off a whole bunch of elderly people lately, allowing it to be said that we are now seeing fewer deaths among the older folks. That's the clear message I hear from those against the vaccines.


Not my intent.
My intended meaning was that early COVID waves killed off lots of old people, so there are simply less of them to die during this wave.



> I think there will be millions of Canadians refusing to take any vaccine. I spoke to one couple on Vancouver Island yesterday - 84 and 87 years old. I asked, innocently, if they had been vaccinated. The reaction was more ferocious that C-19. They looked at me like I was from the moon for suggesting it. They told me they had done hours of diligent research and were dead sure that the vaccines are lethal, imminical to human life. Their 53-y.o. son readily agreed, as did his healthcare worker wife.


This is why I have issues when people use the "expert" argument. 
I recall listening to health care workers, a nurse and PSW specifically, talk about how hand sanitizer works better than handwashing. Which is simply not true.



If you read any of my posts, I think the AZ hesitation is being pushed by antivaxxers, even here on the forum they're active.
Just to be clear, I think the AZ vaccine should be investigated.
But as of right now, there is no reason to hesistate on taking it.
Even if you take the worst possible interpretation of the data, it's still a relatively insignificant risk. I think the data shows it's roughly on part with getting hit by lightening, which is not something I'm particularly concerned about either.


----------



## Mukhang pera

MrMatt said:


> Not my intent.
> My intended meaning was that early COVID waves killed off lots of old people, so there are simply less of them to die during this wave.


Thank you for clarification.


----------



## james4beach

agent99 said:


> Some of the Texas data is _trending_ better than ours. But overall it is _not_ better than ours.
> 
> For example, they have 97,000 active cases at present in a population of 29Million. Canada as a whole has 54,000 active cases in a population of 39Million. Which one is better?


The US (and Texan) death rate is also triple Canada's. Make no mistake, Canada has ... so far ... protected its citizens far better than the USA.

But we can't let our guard down. It's possible that the new variants are changing the situation and we might be in for a rough few months ahead. Europe is getting hit very hard, and we've got the same variants now, plus the Brazilian P1 variant (which is on the loose in BC)

This is a very dangerous time


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> The US (and Texan) death rate is also triple Canada's. Make no mistake, Canada has ... so far ... protected its citizens far better than the USA.
> 
> But we can't let our guard down. It's possible that the new variants are changing the situation and we might be in for a rough few months ahead. Europe is getting hit very hard, and we've got the same variants now, plus the Brazilian P1 variant (which is on the loose in BC)
> 
> This is a very dangerous time


I agree we are doing better than most, and as I’ve said before....in the end....countries will be judged on their death rates, or their vaccine speed. The US could vaccinate everyone tomorrow and history will judge their response to the pandemic as horrible. What are they at....close to 600,000 and still 1,000 dying everyday.


----------



## agent99

Eder said:


> But the point is not Texas numbers, the point is while Canada remains restricted and locked down, Texas is wide open, back to normal, mask free and with dropping Covid numbers.


They have more people per capita actively ill with COVID than us. And they have just gone wide open. Does that make sense? 

CDC is predicting a 4th wave and pleading with Americans to stay safe. President doing same. Yet Texas goes wide open? I hope for their sake that CDC are wrong, but I doubt that will be the case. Just look at Europe.

Not impressed with the minimal restrictions now in Ontario. Only hope, is that better weather will get more people outdoors and reduce transmission.


----------



## leoc2

agent99 said:


> They have more people per capita actively ill with COVID than us. And they have just gone wide open. Does that make sense?
> 
> CDC is predicting a 4th wave and pleading with Americans to stay safe. President doing same. Yet Texas goes wide open? I hope for their sake that CDC are wrong, but I doubt that will be the case. Just look at Europe.
> 
> Not impressed with the minimal restrictions now in Ontario. Only hope, is that better weather will get more people outdoors and reduce transmission.


If better weather and people outdoors reduces transmission the how do you explain the LA surge in cases?


----------



## Eder

agent99 said:


> CDC is predicting a 4th wave and pleading with Americans to stay safe. President doing same. Yet Texas goes wide open? I hope for their sake that CDC are wrong, but I doubt that will be the case. Just look at Europe.


At the pace of vaccination there won't be any new wave in Texas...by end of May it will be completed for any that want one. And we can skip the BS that they still get infected...like getting hit by lightening. Covid will be a bad memory for the most part in America by June.

As for people that choose to not get vaccinated who knows, who cares.


----------



## james4beach

leoc2 said:


> If better weather and people outdoors reduces transmission the how do you explain the LA surge in cases?


Yeah, I'm not counting on warm weather to save us.

I think what we have seen so far was a "dress rehearsal". I was taking the masks very seriously, for months, but the rate of disease in the community was actually pretty low back then. Today, there's far more COVID circulating in the community, *and it's more infectious.*

Everyone has to step up their distancing & mask game NOW. The nature of the virus has changed. Don't rely on whatever habits worked for you in the last few months.

BC just hit a new record high, with a rare Saturday announcement. These are actually two record breaking numbers, back to back. I can tell (looking around at the public) that the BC public does not grasp the situation we're in. They're still acting like normal, and crowds of people are shopping at the stores. Tourists are still coming to town.

Alberta is also getting the highest daily COVID numbers seen this year. They are reporting a lot of the Brazilian variant, which people probably picked up from BC and brought back home -- good job travellers and tourists!


----------



## Eder

Lol, I wouldn't count so much on your 10 cent masks to save you



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/masks-early-pulmonary-toxicity-quebec-schools-daycares-1.5966387


*Potentially toxic masks distributed in schools and daycares in Quebec*


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> I agree we are doing better than most, and as I’ve said before....in the end....countries will be judged on their death rates, or their vaccine speed. The US could vaccinate everyone tomorrow and history will judge their response to the pandemic as horrible. What are they at....close to 600,000 and still 1,000 dying everyday.


Who cares (except Liberals) how "countries will be judged on their death rates,"?! esp. if after-Covid and lockdowns deaths will be huge?!

Also. Covid game didn't end yet and Canada can overpass a lot of countries, esp Israel who has new cases less than in single Peel


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> Lol, I wouldn't count so much on your 10 cent masks to save you
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/masks-early-pulmonary-toxicity-quebec-schools-daycares-1.5966387
> 
> 
> *Potentially toxic masks distributed in schools and daycares in Quebec*


FUD. Yes, you should make sure your masks come from a reputable supplier.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> FUD. Yes, you should make sure your masks come from a reputable supplier.


Not a surprise that some Chinese masks got banned... China produces mostly junk, except Vovid-19 . I remember that my Bauer hockey stick was recalled as it contained a lot of dangerous chemical ****...

Trump was absolutely right making tariffs on Chinese ****


----------



## s1231

For the records
---








COVID-19 Data Explorer


Research and data to make progress against the world’s largest problems




ourworldindata.org




total deaths per 1M (country=BRA~GBR~ZAF~CAN~ISR)









--








South Africa sells AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccines to other African countries


South Africa has concluded the sale of AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccines it had acquired but did not use to other African Union (AU) member states, the health ministry said on Sunday.




www.reuters.com




March 21, 2021
The country had paused AstraZeneca vaccinations last month 
because of a small trial showing the shot offered minimal protection against mild to moderate illness caused 
by the dominant local coronavirus variant.
--








Covid-19: Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine approved for use in UK


The first doses are due to be given on Monday, amid concern over rising coronavirus cases.



www.bbc.com




30 December 2020
--








Brazil authorizes two COVID-19 vaccines for emergency use


Amid a devastating resurgence of the coronavirus in parts of Brazil, federal health officials have finally voted to authorize two vaccines for emergency use. Sunday, Brazilian regulatory agency Anvisa approved both the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine and the Coronavac vaccine.




cnnphilippines.com




Jan 18, 2021


----------



## agent99

Eder said:


> At the pace of vaccination there won't be any new wave in Texas...by end of May it will be completed for any that want one. And we can skip the BS that they still get infected...like getting hit by lightening. _Covid will be a bad memory for the most part in America by June._
> 
> As for people that choose to not get vaccinated who knows, who cares.


Hopefully Americans will follow the advice of CDC and their leadership. Not people making unfounded predictions.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> Yeah, I'm not counting on warm weather to save us.
> 
> I think what we have seen so far was a "dress rehearsal". I was taking the masks very seriously, for months, but the rate of disease in the community was actually pretty low back then. Today, there's far more COVID circulating in the community, *and it's more infectious.*
> 
> Everyone has to step up their distancing & mask game NOW. The nature of the virus has changed. Don't rely on whatever habits worked for you in the last few months.
> 
> BC just hit a new record high, with a rare Saturday announcement. These are actually two record breaking numbers, back to back. I can tell (looking around at the public) that the BC public does not grasp the situation we're in. They're still acting like normal, and crowds of people are shopping at the stores. Tourists are still coming to town.
> 
> Alberta is also getting the highest daily COVID numbers seen this year. They are reporting a lot of the Brazilian variant, which people probably picked up from BC and brought back home -- good job travellers and tourists!


BC is going to be an interesting case study. Many may have heard that the P1 variant knocked out the Vancouver Canucks from their next few hockey games. 16 players and 3 coaches caught it.

This variant seems to be more in BC then the rest of Canada but I have no doubt that is just a timing issue. My curiosity will be how their infection rates grow. This variant is a night and day difference in infectiousness compared to the original virus and even more infectious then the UK, which is becoming the dominant virus in Canada.

Ontario has more active infections. P1 is more infectious and it is mostly in BC. I will be interested to see how the ratio of cases between Ontario and BC unfold, over the next month. Today the infection ratio is 3:1 in favour of Ontario.


----------



## agent99

I read recently where Pfizer stated that they predict their vaccine will be effective for 6 months. That is when administered 2nd dose after 21 days.

Here, we get just one dose, then second one after 4 months??????

I don't imagine anyone has any idea of what degree of protection we will have down the road.

Pfizer says its COVID-19 vaccine protection lasts at least six months

Canadians are totally out on their own on this. No other country is doing this. As a result, there is no data to back up what our health authorities have dictated.


----------



## zinfit

Watched an interview with Dr Scott Gottlieb former head of the FDA. To me he has been the most reliable expert throughout the pandemic. He says the USA is vaccinating a rate of 4 million a day and will soon be at a rate of 5 million. He does see a problem with younger people but he doesn't see a fourth major wave. He says 100 million people have been vaccinated and over 100 million have already had a level of covid and should have a measure of protection. This should be seen as good news for Trudeau. At this rate of vaccinations the US should be finished in June. That will free up a massive supply of vaccines.


----------



## andrewf

zinfit said:


> Watched an interview with Dr Scott Gottlieb former head of the FDA. To me he has been the most reliable expert throughout the pandemic. He says the USA is vaccinating a rate of 4 million a day and will soon be at a rate of 5 million. He does see a problem with younger people but he doesn't see a fourth major wave. He says 100 million people have been vaccinated and over 100 million have already had a level of covid and should have a measure of protection. This should be seen as good news for Trudeau. At this rate of vaccinations the US should be finished in June. That will free up a massive supply of vaccines.


It's been amusing listening to US talking heads. Some people are saying that the US has so much vaccine they should start sending to developing countries... nevermind the other developed countries with contracts for the vaccines that the US is hoarding. Let Moderna export the vaccines instead of hoarding the supply for domestic use.

And also Americans gloating about the fact they are ahead in vaccinations when they were only able to do so because they control the manufacturing. Reminds your customers not to rely on you in future. There go US pharma jobs.


----------



## MrMatt

agent99 said:


> I read recently where Pfizer stated that they predict their vaccine will be effective for 6 months. That is presumably after being administered according to their instructions 2nd dose after 21 days.
> 
> Here, we get just one dose, then second one after 4 months??????
> 
> I don't imagine anyone has any idea of what degree of protection we will have down the road.


We do have ideas, it varies by vaccine.
I personally feel that the choice to spread to every 4 months was not science based (because the data isn't there). 
It was a political decision.

The data is starting tos how up, and I am afraid that a split dose of the vaccine will allow a new strain to spread, just like the superbugs created by improper use of antibiotics.

I think improperly using the vaccine is as responsible as


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> It's been amusing listening to US talking heads. Some people are saying that the US has so much vaccine they should start sending to developing countries... nevermind the other developed countries with contracts for the vaccines that the US is hoarding. Let Moderna export the vaccines instead of hoarding the supply for domestic use.
> 
> And also Americans gloating about the fact they are ahead in vaccinations when they were only able to do so because they control the manufacturing. Reminds your customers not to rely on you in future. There go US pharma jobs.


It's because US is really developed country, not like "developed only on paper" our banana republic. And stop repeating this BS that US " ahead in vaccinations"... Israel already finished their vaccination w/o manufacturing any vaccine...
They have smart PM and efficient government, we got "funny idiot" Trudeau and bunch of Liberal morons


----------



## agent99

gibor365 said:


> It's because US is really developed country, not like "developed only on paper" our banana republic. And stop repeating this BS that US " ahead in vaccinations"... Israel already finished their vaccination w/o manufacturing any vaccine...
> They have smart PM and efficient government, we got "funny idiot" Trudeau and bunch of Liberal morons


Question comes to mind Gibor - why do you stay here if you are so unhappy with Canada? And, you keep saying Israel, where you came from, is so good? There are few countries in the world that are a better place to live than Canada, but all you do is complain. I am also an immigrant, but have no wish to live anywhere else.

Israel despite achieving a high rate of vaccination, is not doing all that well. For example, they have more Covid deaths per capita than Canada, even in past week or so despite Canada's vaccination rate being so much lower. Israel must be doing something wrong.









COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista


COVID deaths worldwide were highest in Peru, topping a list that compares deaths per million in 210 countries worldwide.




www.statista.com


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> And also Americans gloating about the fact they are ahead in vaccinations when they were only able to do so because they control the manufacturing. Reminds your customers not to rely on you in future. There go US pharma jobs.


I think we should keep this in mind (can we trust the USA) when it comes to warfare too.

If North America is ever attacked, we've always been under the impression that America will defend us. Now I'm not so sure.

They sure screwed us with the vaccines. From a tactical standpoint, it was in America's best interests to help Canada get lots of vaccines, and they *still* didn't do it.


----------



## Eder

It is appropriate that the USA vaccinates its own people before exporting to other countries, if Canada had any production I'm sure we would use it on ourselves first as well. Maybe the next pandemic/government.


----------



## andrewf

agent99 said:


> There are few countries in the world that are a better place to live than Canada, but all you do is complain.


I think he enjoys being a miserable SOB. His wife must be a saint.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> It is appropriate that the USA vaccinates its own people before exporting to other countries, if Canada had any production I'm sure we would use it on ourselves first as well. Maybe the next pandemic/government.


Same goes for masks. Canada should have hoarded all the raw material used by 3M to make masks until we were comfortable with our PPE supply.

Not sure I agree that it is appropriate for US to vaccinate 20 year olds when 75 year olds in Europe/Canada are not yet vaccinated. I guess you could make sense that the US had a much worse handle on the pandemic and much higher deaths, so using the vaccine there would save more lives.


----------



## Eder

Actually much of the US is currently vaccinating 16 year olds. I hate to say it but Canada's lack of planning last year is hardly a reason to be dissing the USA now.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> Actually much of the US is currently vaccinating 16 year olds. I hate to say it but Canada's lack of planning last year is hardly a reason to be dissing the USA now.


Tell that to my 70 year old relative who still can't get a booking in the US. Our family has spent several hours with her on the phone through this weekend, and we can't get booking anywhere. I just spent an hour with her on the phone trying, and failing again to book. All pharmacies booked up, no time slots available. I've been trying all the state-run options too, and don't see any time slots available there either.

I'm going to try it again at 6 am tomorrow.

The US situation varies a lot by state and even by county. Some well-run counties have good vaccination operations in place.

Meanwhile, this relative's siblings (similar ages) who live in Canada all had bookings for last week / this week. So the US is not the same story everywhere.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> Actually much of the US is currently vaccinating 16 year olds. I hate to say it but Canada's lack of planning last year is hardly a reason to be dissing the USA now.


When the US forbade US plants from exporting? Yes, we can diss their wanton disregard for human life beyond their borders. Same folks who were absconding with PPE at airports in China.


----------



## milhouse

andrewf said:


> And also Americans gloating about the fact they are ahead in vaccinations when they were only able to do so because they control the manufacturing. Reminds your customers not to rely on you in future. There go US pharma jobs.


I suspect there's going to be a lot of supply chain and domestic manufacturing capacity re-assessment across a range of products.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Same goes for masks. Canada should have hoarded all the raw material used by 3M to make masks until we were comfortable with our PPE supply.
> 
> Not sure I agree that it is appropriate for US to vaccinate 20 year olds when 75 year olds in Europe/Canada are not yet vaccinated. I guess you could make sense that the US had a much worse handle on the pandemic and much higher deaths, so using the vaccine there would save more lives.


We don't produce the raw material used by 3M to make N95 masks.
We produce the material to make surgical gowns.


----------



## MrMatt

milhouse said:


> I suspect there's going to be a lot of supply chain and domestic manufacturing capacity re-assessment across a range of products.


I suspect you're wrong.
They didn't even manage to maintain the SARS PPE stockpile, instead they threw it out right before COVID19.
Think about that SARS-CoV caused a scare, we made plans and preparations, a decade later we threw it all out, and were unprepared for SARS-CoV-2.

Do you really think that anyone will spend the extra billions to maintain these industries in Canada?
Imagine how many handouts to buy votes they could get?

Although I could imagine a nice big federally subsidized industry could be just what they want.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> I suspect you're wrong.
> They didn't even manage to maintain the SARS PPE stockpile, instead they threw it out right before COVID19.
> Think about that SARS-CoV caused a scare, we made plans and preparations, a decade later we threw it all out, and were unprepared for SARS-CoV-2.
> 
> Do you really think that anyone will spend the extra billions to maintain these industries in Canada?
> Imagine how many handouts to buy votes they could get?
> 
> Although I could imagine a nice big federally subsidized industry could be just what they want.


To be fair, up until 2010, we hadn't had a pandemic approaching the severity of COVID for 90 years. COVID 19 has been one of the most expensive disasters in global history. I don't think we will nickel and dime national security measures like having PPE autonomy and ability to manufacture vaccines domestically.


----------



## Money172375

Sharing my moms experience. She has risk cancer and NACI recently updated guidelines so high-risk individuals can get their second shot in 3-4 weeks, instead of 4 months. The folks in Peel have been great. She gets her first shot today and we‘ve been told someone will call us in a week or two to schedule the second shot. They also advised us that because of my moms illness, my dad might also get an expedited second dose As he is the primary caregiver.


----------



## like_to_retire

Money172375 said:


> Sharing my moms experience. She has risk cancer and NACI recently updated guidelines so high-risk individuals can get their second shot in 3-4 weeks, instead of 4 months. The folks in Peel have been great. She gets her first shot today and we‘ve been told someone will call us in a week or two to schedule the second shot. They also advised us that because of my moms illness, my dad might also get an expedited second dose As he is the primary caregiver.


So NACI and the government is basically admitting the 4 month interval doesn't protect people.

ltr


----------



## milhouse

MrMatt said:


> I suspect you're wrong.
> They didn't even manage to maintain the SARS PPE stockpile, instead they threw it out right before COVID19.
> Think about that SARS-CoV caused a scare, we made plans and preparations, a decade later we threw it all out, and were unprepared for SARS-CoV-2.
> 
> Do you really think that anyone will spend the extra billions to maintain these industries in Canada?
> Imagine how many handouts to buy votes they could get?
> 
> Although I could imagine a nice big federally subsidized industry could be just what they want.


Asking the questions is one thing, while actually executing where it makes sense or is important to us is another matter.
You're insane if you don't think there there's going to be a post pandemic review, after we stop running around with our hair on fire, on where the choke points were and why, what caused the most impact, what we did well, and what we could rely on. There were likely a lot of assumptions made during the first partial go around which have now either been proved valid or incorrect during this full blown event.


----------



## agent99

Money172375 said:


> NACI recently updated guidelines so high-risk individuals can get their second shot in 3-4 weeks, instead of 4 months.


I have not seen any update. Do you have a reference? If this is true, please post link.I am a cancer patient myself. I did just get a call to reschedule my cancelled 2nd dose - it is 15 1/2 week after the first.


----------



## gibor365

like_to_retire said:


> So NACI and the government is basically admitting the 4 month interval doesn't protect people.
> 
> ltr


NACI is a joke, exactly like Heath Canada and Theresa Tam


----------



## gibor365

_We do know, and this is significant, that Canada has fallen far behind other advanced nations in distributing the vaccine, which is interesting considering the decades of propaganda all of us here have been subject to about the glories of the Canadian healthcare system. According to Andrea Taylor, a researcher at Duke's Global Health Innovation Center, Canada "had more faith in the global supply chain than other countries."

Oh, they believed the whole globalism thing worked. That turned out to be a mistake. But rather than admit that globalist stupidity is the problem, Justin Trudeau decided to punish his own citizens. It’s his fault, and the population gets punished. Recognize that impulse? It should, because neoliberalism is always the same, no matter where you find it._


----------



## MrMatt

milhouse said:


> You're insane if you don't think there there's going to be a post pandemic review, after we stop running around with our hair on fire, on where the choke points were and why, what caused the most impact, what we did well, and what we could rely on. There were likely a lot of assumptions made during the first partial go around which have now either been proved valid or incorrect during this full blown event.


I completely agree.
But I don't trust the government to do a good job.
Trudeau is finally almost closing the borders, after a year of lying about doing so.

Is he the guy you trust to prepare for the next pandemic?

I think politicians like him will be eager to cut out long term strategic plans in favour of silly gimicks to win the next election


----------



## agent99

gibor365 said:


> NACI is a joke, exactly like Heath Canada and Theresa Tam


Gibor, it's you that are the joke. But we can fix that


----------



## Eder

Why personal attacks? He has a right to his opinion,if you don't like it use the ignore feature. 

Many Canadians hold the view that Tam is out of her league and only holds the post because hiring wasn't merit based. Who knew that somehow she would ever become relevant in Canada?


----------



## gibor365

agent99 said:


> Gibor, it's you that are the joke. But we can fix that
> 
> View attachment 21524


  I don't give a [email protected] about those numbers... I'm not Justin Mussolini and nt trying to be politically correct to get some points


----------



## agent99

Eder said:


> Why personal attacks? He has a right to his opinion,if you don't like it use the ignore feature.


When he constantly attacks Canada, he is attacking all of us. See my post above on how to ignore


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> Why personal attacks? He has a right to his opinion,if you don't like it use the ignore feature.
> 
> Many Canadians hold the view that Tam is out of her league and only holds the post because hiring wasn't merit based. Who knew that somehow she would ever become relevant in Canada?


I'd go further 
Even though I think Tam is either chose to explicitly mislead the government and the people of Canada, contributing the death of thousands.
Or she's grossly incompetent. Either of which is reason to remove her from her position.


----------



## gibor365

agent99 said:


> When he constantly attacks Canada, he is attacking all of us. See my post above on how to ignore


First of all , I mostly attack Justine Mussolini and his dictatorship


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> I'd go further
> Even though I think Tam is either chose to explicitly mislead the government and the people of Canada, contributing the death of thousands.
> Or she's grossly incompetent. Either of which is reason to remove her from her position.


Just curious if Tam ever admitted that she did mistake while telling Canadians last march that wearing masks doesn't make sense?!
She should be fired 1 year ago!


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> Just curious* if Tam ever admitted that she did mistake while telling Canadians last march that wearing masks doesn't make sense?!*
> She should be fired 1 year ago!


 ... why does it matter to you anyways, considering you believe Covid is "only" the "flu".

Did it ever occurred to you that she was trying to protect the "health systems" by *not* emphasizing the use of "masks" at that time, especially considering the shortage of 3M masks, and what have you PPEs? Or possibly there's political play involved?


----------



## gibor365

> Did it ever occurred to you that she was trying to protect the "health systems" by *not* emphasizing the use of "masks" at that time, especially considering the shortage of 3M masks


 Wow! What a nonsense!!!!


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> Wow! What a nonsense!!!!


 ... since you're the medical expert now in hindsight, feel free to spout.


----------



## Money172375

agent99 said:


> I have not seen any update. Do you have a reference? If this is true, please post link.I am a cancer patient myself. I did just get a call to reschedule my cancelled 2nd dose - it is 15 1/2 week after the first.


Sorry, not NACI. Government of Ontario is making the change. It’s still early....my mom still got an appointment 16 weeks out, but I’m working with the scheduler to move it up. They asked for the oncologists name to confirm. Here is the new “exceptions” document from The province. 



https://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/publichealth/coronavirus/docs/vaccine/COVID_19_medical_exceptions_vaccine_dose_intervals.pdf


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Sorry, not NACI. Government of Ontario is making the change. It’s still early....my mom still got an appointment 16 weeks out, but I’m working with the scheduler to move it up. They asked for the oncologists name to confirm. Here is the new “exceptions” document from The province.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/publichealth/coronavirus/docs/vaccine/COVID_19_medical_exceptions_vaccine_dose_intervals.pdf


What is happening in ON is very weird ! My MIL today got 2nd Pfizer shot (she lives in Halton senior house), my mom (who also lives in Halton senior house, but in a different one) , got 1st Moderna shot, but no any notice about 2nd one (maybe delayed because of Moderna again suspend shipment to Canada?!). My uncle and aunt who live independently in York, were told that they can do a 2nd vaccine only after 4 months.... So, it's very confusing....

However, as per CDC (and I believe them much more than NACI or Thersa Tam,
_You should *get your second shot as close to the recommended 3-week or 4-week interval as possible*. However, your second dose may be given up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose, if necessary.








COVID-19 Vaccination


COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




www.cdc.gov




_
Up to 6 weeks and 4 months (17 weeks) are huge differences...
P.S. Looks like NACI wants to do a huge experiment on Canadians


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> _We do know, and this is significant, that Canada has fallen far behind other advanced nations in distributing the vaccine, which is interesting considering the decades of propaganda all of us here have been subject to about the glories of the Canadian healthcare system. According to Andrea Taylor, a researcher at Duke's Global Health Innovation Center, Canada "had more faith in the global supply chain than other countries."
> 
> Oh, they believed the whole globalism thing worked. That turned out to be a mistake. But rather than admit that globalist stupidity is the problem, Justin Trudeau decided to punish his own citizens. It’s his fault, and the population gets punished. Recognize that impulse? It should, because neoliberalism is always the same, no matter where you find it._


Shouldn't you at least credit wherever you are stealing this from?


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Shouldn't you at least credit wherever you are stealing this from?


I published the link before... but for you probably the only reliable links that carry Liberalistic propaganda 









Tucker Carlson: COVID internment camps, coming soon to a country near you


'Tucker Carlson Tonight' host Tucker Carlson reacts to Canada's forcing citizens to quarantine in 'government facilities'




www.foxnews.com


----------



## james4beach

A friend of mine (who's on immune suppression drugs) got a Moderna shot in the US. He's part of a scientific study because he's at very high risk.

Interestingly, the single shot of Moderna gave him an incredibly strong immune response. The docs measured his antibody levels as very high, far larger than expected.

This is anecdotal, based on what he's hearing from the docs, but he says Moderna seems to elicit a strong response in people on immune suppression drugs. The Moderna shot has a higher dose of the MRNA payload than Pfizer.

This comes with more side effects, too. He says he was knocked out of commission for 36 hours. Fever and terrible chills. So tired he was bed ridden and couldn't lift his head. He had significant gastrointestinal side effects for 5 days.

But then it turns out he had massive antibody response and very high resulting immunity. I'm not sure if there's anything to take away from this, but it sounds like the Moderna shot packs more punch than Pfizer... with more side effects.


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> I published the link before... [Tucker Carlson]


What garbage, from a far right, white supremacist scumbag. I'm not surprised you like his content though. It seems right up your alley. Beware, enough of this filth will melt your brain.


----------



## gibor365

> This comes with more side effects, too. He says he was knocked out of commission for 36 hours. Fever and terrible chills. So tired he was bed ridden and couldn't lift his head. He had significant gastrointestinal side effects for 5 days.


 My mom is 75 with underlying conditions and got Moderna 2 weeeks ago.....absolutely no side effects


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> What garbage, from a far right, white supremacist scumbag. Everything he spews is filth.
> 
> I'm not surprised you like his content though. It seems right up your alley. Beware, enough of this filth will melt your brain.


The real garbage is an "cheerful idiot, wearing weird costumes and yammering on about diversity" the former drama teacher whose cult you admire


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> The real garbage is an "cheerful idiot, wearing weird costumes and yammering on about diversity" the former drama teacher whose cult you admire


gibor, you're hilarious. Do you not realize that neo nazis actually love Tucker? The Daily Stormer (nazi web site) loves Tucker, because he's a vile white supremacist / white nationalist.

The Nazis love him, and gibor loves him too!

I say it's hilarious because you're Jewish, and yet, you enjoy all the same stuff as neo Nazis and white supremacists, including their xenophobic anti-immigration stuff. The kind of material you post on this board is virtually indistinguishable from the opinions of antisemites and neo-nazis.

I seriously doubt that you are actually Jewish.


----------



## gibor365

james, stop BSing! You, liberals, are telling that Trump , Jared Kushner, Ezra Levant, Pamela Geller and anyone who doesn't agree with liberal values are anti Semitic.

Maybe some Nazis love him, but ALL Islamists ,terrorists supporters and anti-Semitics love "cheerful idiot, wearing weird costumes and yammering on about diversity" the former drama teacher whose cult you admire..

P.S. Just do some research, in Europe more and more Jews support ultra-right parties like National Rally , Vox, AfD, The party of Geert Wilders etc... and those parties in turn support Jewish and Israel ... Finally Jewish people started to understand that left-liberal scam hate us


----------



## gibor365

> I seriously doubt that you are actually Jewish.


 I'm not doubting that you anti-Semitic

P.S. Leh tizdajen ja sone ihudim!


----------



## agent99

Money172375 said:


> Sorry, not NACI. Government of Ontario is making the change.
> 
> 
> https://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/publichealth/coronavirus/docs/vaccine/COVID_19_medical_exceptions_vaccine_dose_intervals.pdf


Don't see anything there that would help me. 

We are just going to continue on as though we did not get the first shot. How effective that shot will be after 4 months, especially with possibly compromised immune system, is not known by anyone, it seems. 

Pfizer say their double dose is good for 6 months. (Some say perhaps longer). For first 4 months we have had just one dose. We get a second shot after 4 months? Canada is like being on a separate vaccine universe  

Nevertheless, weather is improving and we are able to socialize outdoors. Bikes, walks, golf, family/friend on deck. No movies, bars, crowded restaurants! No hardship really.


----------



## gibor365

agent99 said:


> Pfizer say their double dose is good for 6 months. (Some say perhaps longer). For first 4 months we have had just one dose. We get a second shot after 4 months? Canada is like being on a separate vaccine universe


Hey! And you criticize me about criticizing NACI, Health Canada and Theresa Tam?! as per CDC , the maximum period between 2 doses should be 42 days! Canada is the only country in the World that decided to have 4 months interval between 2 doses! 
btw, my MIL got 2nd dose 3 weeks after 1st, my mom is still waiting for 2nd, my uncle and aunt were told 4 months in York... Go figure!


----------



## kcowan

We got our second Pfizer dose today, 42 days to the minute after our first dose. Sure hope CDC is right?


----------



## Money172375

Check out patty hajdu’s Twitter post. She’s detailed how many vaccines each prov/terr. Has received and how many have been administered. Seems the ball is with the provinces now.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1379219061305925634
as an example, in ontario, provided 4,022,875 vaccines and they have administered 2,545,640 doses across the province.









‘We must all speed up’: Trudeau offers help to provinces as vaccine rollout trails deliveries - National | Globalnews.ca


'I think people recognize the fact that we must all speed up the vaccination process,' Trudeau said during the Tuesday press conference.




globalnews.ca


----------



## like_to_retire

I see they are dropping the age of phase 2 vaccine appointments in Ottawa by 10 years instead of the usual 5 years as of Wednesday. Dropping from age 70 to age 60.

_"OTTAWA -- Residents of Ottawa born in or before 1961 will be able to book an appointment for COVID-19 vaccine through Ontario's booking system as of Wednesday.
The province announced on Tuesday that all public health units using the booking system will be booking appointments for residents 60 and older as of April 7."_

Ottawa News | Local Breaking | CTV News Ottawa

ltr


----------



## Eder

Dr. Fauci has already rejected the CDC Director Walensky's "impending doom" rhetoric, and on Tuesday, he told CNBC that "as long as we keep vaccinating people efficiently and effectively, I don't think [a fourth wave] is gonna happen."


----------



## andrewf

I suspect there will be a fourth wave in the US, in some ways we are already seeing it. I just don't think it will be as large, owing to the rapid vaccine rollout. But working against that rollout is probably reckless reopening and encouraging of large scale gatherings. Would not be surprised if Texas is brewing up its fourth wave right now. Just saw the capacity baseball game with no masks in sight. At their current levels of vaccination that could still easily be a cause of a lot of spread.


----------



## Eder

Will be interesting to revisit in a couple of weeks...atm cases etc are still going down in Texas a month later much to Fauci's chagrin.

I'll put this here to look at in 2 weeks


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> as an example, in ontario, provided 4,022,875 vaccines and they have administered 2,545,640 doses across the province.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘We must all speed up’: Trudeau offers help to provinces as vaccine rollout trails deliveries - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 'I think people recognize the fact that we must all speed up the vaccination process,' Trudeau said during the Tuesday press conference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


_According to Hajdu’s tweets, Ontario has received over four million vaccine doses to date – but has administered just over 2.5 million of them_
So, who is lying, Health Ontario (who complains that there are no enough vaccines) or Hajdu (who claims ON used only 62% available vaccines)? (probably 1.5M AZ vaccines were also included and people just don;t trust them?)


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> _According to Hajdu’s tweets, Ontario has received over four million vaccine doses to date – but has administered just over 2.5 million of them_
> So, who is lying, Health Ontario (who complains that there are no enough vaccines) or Hajdu (who claims ON used only 62% available vaccines)? (probably 1.5M AZ vaccines were also included and people just don;t trust them?)


To be fair to Ford, I imagine many of those 1.5M unused doses arrived quite recently as Canada's supply is ramping up in April.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> To be fair to Ford, I imagine many of those 1.5M unused doses arrived quite recently as Canada's supply is ramping up in April.


So, we'll vaccination numbers later this week.... AFAIR, somebody from ON government threw that even 400,000 can be administrated per day ....
So far , ON record was about 70-75K per day, right?


----------



## gibor365

I don't really understand Ontario Phase 3 vaccination plan.....they write "

Adults 59 years and younger
So, when it starts, everyone is eligible to register or they will still go by 5 years increments, 55-59, 50-54 and so on?

Interestingly, only 59.6% Canadians want to get vaccine if it's available tomorrow....the highest % in Denmark - 68%, the lowest in France 40%


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> I don't really understand Ontario Phase 3 vaccination plan.....they write "
> 
> Adults 59 years and younger
> So, when it starts, everyone is eligible to register or they will still go by 5 years increments, 55-59, 50-54 and so on?
> 
> Interestingly, only 59.6% Canadians want to get vaccine if it's available tomorrow....the highest % in Denmark - 68%, the lowest in France 40%


You're quoting old/incomplete data, which is why you should include links to support your claim.

Back in December the UK was at 70% which is above your Denmark 68%, so they weren't the highest then.










Covid vaccine acceptance rises in some countries: study


Willingness to get a COVID-19 vaccine is on the rise compared to last year, a survey of six industrialised countries published on Monday showed.




medicalxpress.com


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> You're quoting old/incomplete data, which is why you should include links to support your claim.
> 
> Back in December the UK was at 70% which is above your Denmark 68%, so they weren't the highest then.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid vaccine acceptance rises in some countries: study
> 
> 
> Willingness to get a COVID-19 vaccine is on the rise compared to last year, a survey of six industrialised countries published on Monday showed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> medicalxpress.com


Data I posted is a new and updated on daily basis








Share among unvaccinated people who would get a COVID-19 vaccine this week if it was available to them


Share of survey respondents who have not received a COVID-19 vaccine and who agree with the statement: "If a COVID-19 vaccine were made available to me this week, I would definitely get it."




ourworldindata.org




UK is on 2nd place with 67.5% ... Canada at 59.6%


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Data I posted is a new and updated on daily basis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Share among unvaccinated people who would get a COVID-19 vaccine this week if it was available to them
> 
> 
> Share of survey respondents who have not received a COVID-19 vaccine and who agree with the statement: "If a COVID-19 vaccine were made available to me this week, I would definitely get it."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ourworldindata.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK is on 2nd place with 67.5% ... Canada at 59.6%


The numbers for France seem really low, 24% at end of December. 
That's also a major departure with other data, I'm questioniable on what's correct.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> Dr. Fauci has already rejected the CDC Director Walensky's "impending doom" rhetoric, and on Tuesday, he told CNBC that "as long as we keep vaccinating people efficiently and effectively, I don't think [a fourth wave] is gonna happen."


It's normal to see disagreements between experts. They won't all think the same thing, and it doesn't mean any of them are right or wrong.

Even in my world of computer software, you can take something technical and still get a million different opinions on it. That doesn't bother me. I want the experts to have some debate, and I would be more afraid if there was groupthink or blind spots.

I personally think Fauci has been pretty reasonable and sensible through the pandemic.

I also think it's great that the CDC explicitly recommends that people avoid all travel to Canada. We are a hot spot with way too much COVID. The CDC warning says that even vaccinated people should avoid travel, due to the risk of the variants.


----------



## Eder

CDC only warns non vaccinated to not travel.









CDC Newsroom


Press releases, advisories, telebriefings, transcripts and archives.




www.cdc.gov





Fully vaccinated people can travel within the United States and do not need COVID-19 testing or post-travel self-quarantine 

Fully vaccinated people can travel internationally without getting a COVID-19 test before travel unless it is required by the international destination.
Fully vaccinated people do not need to self-quarantine after returning to the United States, unless required by a state or local jurisdiction.
Fully vaccinated people must still have a negative COVID-19 test result before they board a flight to the United States and get a COVID-19 test 3 to 5 days after returning from international travel.
Fully vaccinated people should continue to take COVID-19 precautions while traveling internationally.


----------



## Money172375

Ontario offering vaccine to 18+ in hard hit areas. This on top of a new “stay at home” order. And they finally ordered the big box stores to only sell food, pharmacy and cleaning items. Other sections of essential stores cordoned off. Non essential retail is now curbside pickup only.









Ont. prioritizing everyone 18+ in hardest hit neighbourhoods as part of Phase 2 of vaccine rollout


Everyone over the age of 18 in the province's hardest hit neighbourhoods will be prioritized for a COVID-19 shot as part of Phase 2 of the province's vaccine distribution plan, Premier Doug Ford said Wednesday.




www.cp24.com










Ontario Newsroom







news.ontario.ca


----------



## cainvest

Eder said:


> CDC only warns non vaccinated to not travel.


From this CDC link ... COVID-19 in Canada - COVID-19 Very High - Level 4: COVID-19 Very High - Travel Health Notices | Travelers' Health | CDC


Because of the current situation in Canada even *fully vaccinated* travelers may be at risk for getting and spreading COVID-19 variants and should avoid all travel to Canada.


----------



## james4beach

Oops duplicate of @cainvest


----------



## Plugging Along

Eder said:


> CDC only warns non vaccinated to not travel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC Newsroom
> 
> 
> Press releases, advisories, telebriefings, transcripts and archives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fully vaccinated people can travel within the United States and do not need COVID-19 testing or post-travel self-quarantine
> 
> Fully vaccinated people can travel internationally without getting a COVID-19 test before travel unless it is required by the international destination.
> Fully vaccinated people do not need to self-quarantine after returning to the United States, unless required by a state or local jurisdiction.
> Fully vaccinated people must still have a negative COVID-19 test result before they board a flight to the United States and get a COVID-19 test 3 to 5 days after returning from international travel.
> Fully vaccinated people should continue to take COVID-19 precautions while traveling internationally.


the thing is fully vaccinated people can still get Covid so why should not quarantine when they get back? They will not die, but they can still plead to someone who isn’t vaccinated and will die.

My moms home has been fully vaccinated including staff. They had a staff who was vaccinated still test positive for Covid one month+ after they finished the 2nd shot, Our friends hose a nurse and fully vacinate had three of her staff who are also vaccinated get it. They are still working with patients and need to stay home a quarantine. 

It’s. when the majority are vaccinated then even if someone gets it, it should not matter. Then quarantine isn’t required. I am failing to understand how someone’s desire to travel should take a higher priority over someone’s desire not to get Covid.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Ontario offering vaccine to 18+ in hard hit areas. This on top of a new “stay at home” order. And they finally ordered the big box stores to only sell food, pharmacy and cleaning items. Other sections of essential stores cordoned off. Non essential retail is now curbside pickup only.


That's BS, 18 yr olds have orders of magnitude lower risk than people in their 40's or 50s.
Hard hit areas, have what 2x the number of cases per capita?

Vaccinate according to risk.


----------



## Eder

cainvest said:


> From this CDC link ... COVID-19 in Canada - COVID-19 Very High - Level 4: COVID-19 Very High - Travel Health Notices | Travelers' Health | CDC
> 
> 
> Because of the current situation in Canada even *fully vaccinated* travelers may be at risk for getting and spreading COVID-19 variants and should avoid all travel to Canada.


I didn't post about traveling to Canada. I posted that CDC said vaccinated people are OK to travel.(and quoted from their site). Believe it or not many Americans travel elsewhere than to Medicine Hat. Oh and you left a bit out for effect I guess...*"If you must travel to Canada, get fully vaccinated before travel. "*

Who in their right mind would travel to Canada to spend 2k & 3 days of eating cheese sandwiches in a roach motel anyway?


----------



## Eder

Plugging Along said:


> the thing is fully vaccinated people can still get Covid so why should not quarantine when they get back? They will not die, but they can still plead to someone who isn’t vaccinated and will die.
> 
> My moms home has been fully vaccinated including staff. They had a staff who was vaccinated still test positive for Covid one month+ after they finished the 2nd shot, Our friends hose a nurse and fully vacinate had three of her staff who are also vaccinated get it. They are still working with patients and need to stay home a quarantine.
> 
> It’s. when the majority are vaccinated then even if someone gets it, it should not matter. Then quarantine isn’t required. I am failing to understand how someone’s desire to travel should take a higher priority over someone’s desire not to get Covid.


CDC said fully vaccinated people do not spread Covid...


----------



## Plugging Along

Eder said:


> CDC said fully vaccinated people do not spread Covid...


I am not sure how this true is if they can still catch it.

Am I looking on the wrong cdc site? This was directly from there. Do you have a different link?

‘We’re still learning how vaccines will affect the spread of COVID-19. After you’ve been fully vaccinated against COVID-19, you should keep taking precautions—like wearing a mask, staying 6 feet apart from others, and avoiding crowds and poorly ventilated spaces—in public places until we know more.’

No where does it say you don’t have take precautions. I am sure the staff at my moms home still had to isolate when they tested positive for Covid after being fully vaccinated. CDC says if you get symptoms to get tested and isolate too.

Also keep in mind this is updated based on US were they have a higher percentage of the people fully vaccinated. It states very clearly that if you going to another country there is a higher risk both getting and spreading COVID

It seems contradictory in that you can still catch Covid, therefore still spread it, but don’t have to quarantine. Doesn’t seem right to me.


----------



## Eder

There's lots of links ...you do realize CDC is The United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and not Canada right?

*CDC director says data 'suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus'*


https://ca.news.yahoo.com/cdc-director-says-data-suggests-213728435.html



This is based on actual clinical data not guesses & conjecture.


----------



## Plugging Along

Eder said:


> There's lots of links ...you do realize CDC is The United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and not Canada right?
> 
> *CDC director says data 'suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus'*
> 
> 
> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/cdc-director-says-data-suggests-213728435.html
> 
> 
> 
> This is based on actual clinical data not guesses & conjecture.


so I went directly to the official CDC gov site site and pulled this (also just quoted in my last post) which is clear that though the vaccine are looking, they are still learning about spread and it can still spread in fully vaccinated people. Again, NO WHERE a does it say you can mot spread Covid.

‘We’re still learning how vaccines will affect the spread of COVID-19. After you’ve been fully vaccinated against COVID-19, you should keep taking precautions—like wearing a mask, staying 6 feet apart from others, and avoiding crowds and poorly ventilated spaces—in public places until we know more.‘

Then in your article, the title, the director nor CDC says that the virus cannot be contracted nor spread, it SUGGEST (even in the title] that the virus does not spread, from your article....

‘We hope that within the next five or so months we'll be able to answer the very important question about whether vaccinated people get infected asymptomatically, and if they do, do they transmit the infection to others,"

This is clear they don’t know yet, though are hopeful. ’hopeful‘ is not the same as fact. Last year, someone was hopeful that Vovid would be gone by Easter 2020. That hope didn’t translate to fact - yet.

In your examples, I am hopeful and the data does suggest that transmission is will be none, but it’s not conclusive yet. The fact that I personally know of 4 fully vaccinated people who caught the virus (different sources), tells me they can still spread it. 

i even said that the CDC is US a and they have a higher percentage of vacinate people so the risks is lower if someone fully vaccinated returns from travels. In Canada, our percentages are not even close to the US for fully vaccination, therefore the risk of someone coming back into canada even though they are fully vacinated, the risk of of them infecting someone unvaccinated is higher Just because we have more unvaccinated people.


----------



## Eder

I prefer to follow clinical data results summarized by the director of the CDC rather than various opinions. Perhaps the next clinical results will be different....more actual results are otw.
At this time results show the virus does not spread from vaccinated test subjects.

Anyway the only reason I care to requote this news for the 20th time is that it is good news...many people won't like it as they prefer all fear all the time. Others can enjoy the moment. I know I am.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> That's BS, 18 yr olds have orders of magnitude lower risk than people in their 40's or 50s.
> Hard hit areas, have what 2x the number of cases per capita?
> 
> Vaccinate according to risk.


I believe the thinking is try to get to herd immunity faster in hotspots. 18 year olds are at low risk to themselves, but high risk to others for spreading infection.

Doctors may soon have to start making triage decisions about who to offer ICU care to and who to let die.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> There's lots of links ...you do realize CDC is The United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and not Canada right?
> 
> *CDC director says data 'suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus'*
> 
> 
> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/cdc-director-says-data-suggests-213728435.html
> 
> 
> 
> This is based on actual clinical data not guesses & conjecture.


And yet they still recommend using social distancing measures such as masking, etc.


----------



## Eder

Hand washing & sanitizer will soon be designated as useless in the fight against Covid...no link yet though.


----------



## Spudd

Eder said:


> Hand washing & sanitizer will soon be designated as useless in the fight against Covid...no link yet though.


Somewhat...









CDC updates guidance on disinfectants vs. soap to stop COVID's spread on surfaces


The CDC has updated its guidance to say cleaning with soap, detergent may be enough to stop COVID's spread on home surfaces in "most situations" if no virus is suspected.




abcnews.go.com


----------



## Eder

I found this but its not the full story. Every week what we know changes.





__





CDC says risk of COVID-19 transmission on surfaces 1 in 10,000






www.msn.com





The CDC guidance, coming more than a year into the pandemic, is the strongest argument yet against what some critics have dubbed "hygiene theater."


----------



## OptsyEagle

So I did not beat this article to death but the University of Cambridge did a more elaborate analysis of the "benefits outweigh the risks" of the Astrazeneca vaccine, as it pertains to blood clots. I think J4B was alluding to this concept as well. What they appear to have done is calculate the odds of each person's age group getting a trip to the ICU due to a Covid-19 infection and compared that to the risk of NOT going to the ICU due to Covid, but getting the rare blood clot instead.

They used the infection risk of the UK in March but I redid it and the risk is a little less recorded here then it actually is today, if you live in Ontario. In other words your risk of an all expense paid trip to the ICU is a little higher currently in Ontario, then it was in the UK in March. I hope that makes sense. In other words this illustrates risks as they are, for all age groups in Ontario, today.

It looks like the only age group who would be better off declining the Astrazeneca vaccine are people aged 20 to 29. For all other age groups, being unvaccinated is a much higher risk then anything AZ will do. That is what they concluded. In Canada, only age 55 or older can get this vaccine and for the worse age group (Age 55) the vaccine has been proven to be 46 times safer then not getting it. It's even better if you are older.














__





Winton Centre Cambridge


Winton Centre for Risk and Evidence Communication




wintoncentre.maths.cam.ac.uk


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> So I did not beat this article to death but the University of Cambridge did a more elaborate analysis of the "benefits outweigh the risks" of the Astrazeneca vaccine, as it pertains to blood clots. I think J4B was alluding to this concept as well. What they appear to have done is calculate the odds of each person's age group getting a trip to the ICU due to a Covid-19 infection and compared that to the risk of NOT going to the ICU due to Covid, but getting the rare blood clot instead.


My problem with these arguments coming out, these days, about the AZ vaccine outweighing the risks is that they are cherry-picking the UK data for the dangerous blood clots.

Both Germany and Norway saw much more frequent serious blood clots than the UK. I believe the rate in Norway (very serious, life threatening side effects) was 1 in 20,000.

Those rates in Germany & Norway are very concerning. And every country will measure these things differently, so it all creates a very unclear situation about the actual risk of the AZ shot. All the analyses I've read so far focus on the UK rates (which make AZ look safer) but I haven't heard much said about the German & Norwegian rates.

My own gut sense of it aligns with that chart in general. You definitely shouldn't give 20 year olds this shot. But I also suspect that chart you posted is under-estimating the AZ risk by neglecting to consider the blood clot rates seen in Germany & Norway.


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> And every country will measure these things differently, so it all creates a very unclear situation about the actual risk of the AZ shot.


But now we see that Johnson & Johnson vaccine under review in Europe after blood clot reports.

ltr


----------



## james4beach

like_to_retire said:


> But now we see that Johnson & Johnson vaccine under review in Europe after blood clot reports.


Interesting. Do the MRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) really not have any of these kinds of side effects being reported?

One factor could be that there's more attention, people actively watching out for this now. I wonder if the same attention (awareness) had existed when the MRNA vaccinations started, would we have found similar reports back then?

This is a very difficult situation to assess.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> My problem with these arguments coming out, these days, about the AZ vaccine outweighing the risks is that they are cherry-picking the UK data for the dangerous blood clots.
> 
> Both Germany and Norway saw much more frequent serious blood clots than the UK. I believe the rate in Norway (very serious, life threatening side effects) was 1 in 20,000.
> 
> Those rates in Germany & Norway are very concerning. And every country will measure these things differently, so it all creates a very unclear situation about the actual risk of the AZ shot. All the analyses I've read so far focus on the UK rates (which make AZ look safer) but I haven't heard much said about the German & Norwegian rates.
> 
> My own gut sense of it aligns with that chart in general. You definitely shouldn't give 20 year olds this shot. But I also suspect that chart you posted is under-estimating the AZ risk by neglecting to consider the blood clot rates seen in Germany & Norway.


I haven't seen that data.








Women under 60 face higher risk of rare clotting after AstraZeneca shot - German official


Instances of a very rare clotting condition in women aged under 60 who received AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine were 20 times higher than would normally be expected, Christian Bogdan, a member of Germany's vaccine committee, said on Wednesday.




www.reuters.com





Looks like the German data is still somewhere around 1 in 200k, which is orders of magnitude less common than blood clots caused by birth control pills.

Really there is a lot of confusion on this.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> My problem with these arguments coming out, these days, about the AZ vaccine outweighing the risks is that they are cherry-picking the UK data for the dangerous blood clots.
> 
> Both Germany and Norway saw much more frequent serious blood clots than the UK. I believe the rate in Norway (very serious, life threatening side effects) was 1 in 20,000.
> 
> Those rates in Germany & Norway are very concerning. And every country will measure these things differently, so it all creates a very unclear situation about the actual risk of the AZ shot. All the analyses I've read so far focus on the UK rates (which make AZ look safer) but I haven't heard much said about the German & Norwegian rates.
> 
> My own gut sense of it aligns with that chart in general. You definitely shouldn't give 20 year olds this shot. But I also suspect that chart you posted is under-estimating the AZ risk by neglecting to consider the blood clot rates seen in Germany & Norway.


Are you sure they are just using the UK data for blood clots? I know they are using UK data for covid ICU numbers.


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> But now we see that Johnson & Johnson vaccine under review in Europe after blood clot reports.
> 
> ltr


If I recall JNJ had 15 blood clots with the vaccinated group, during their drug trials, compared to 10 blood clots in the placebo group. Obviously both numbers are too small to derive any conclusion but I thought it interesting in light of the AZ situation.

Pfizer and Moderna both only had 1 each but what was really surprising was that they did not have many in their placebo groups either. Pfizer had 1 and Moderna had 2, if I recall correctly. Those numbers are all from the drug trials not the real world vaccination program.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Interesting. Do the MRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) really not have any of these kinds of side effects being reported?


I saw one report on this comparing them a little while ago and the mRNA vaccines had significantly less clotting related issues reported.


----------



## james4beach

BC has just hit the milestone of 1 million vaccine doses administered. Still a long way to go, but it's worth celebrating milestones.


----------



## zinfit

how do the vaccines do with the three variants? They are all effective with the UK variant? I haven't seen much with the SA or Brazilian variants. AZ is very weak with the SA variant. Canada might be the real time clinical trial for this. The JNJ had four blood clot cases for 5 million vaccinations. What is the normal pattern for such blood clotting? Anyways its more than 1 in a million. Not a big deal. I would take my chances if given the option.


----------



## cainvest

zinfit said:


> how do the vaccines do with the three variants?


Last I saw they all do well at reducing serious outcomes.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> how do the vaccines do with the three variants? They are all effective with the UK variant? I haven't seen much with the SA or Brazilian variants. AZ is very weak with the SA variant. Canada might be the real time clinical trial for this. The JNJ had four blood clot cases for 5 million vaccinations. What is the normal pattern for such blood clotting? Anyways its more than 1 in a million. Not a big deal. I would take my chances if given the option.


I don't think there is much SA variant in Canada, lots of UK variant.

The big problem is Brazil, they're at 4k daily deaths, and so much COVID it's just going to brew variants.


----------



## zinfit

cainvest said:


> Last I saw they all do well at reducing serious outcomes.


AZ doesn't seem to be effective against the SA . Not clear what the status is with the Brazilian variant.. Not enough data on Moderna but most experts say it should be similar to Pfizer. JNJ has solid results with both the SA and Brazilian variants.


----------



## cainvest

zinfit said:


> AZ doesn't seem to be effective against the SA .


What do you deem as effective? 

Ability to greatly reduce getting covid
Ability to greatly reduce hospitalizations and deaths


----------



## zinfit

cainvest said:


> What do you deem as effective?
> 
> Ability to greatly reduce getting covid
> Ability to greatly reduce hospitalizations and deaths


The South Africa government has rejected its order of AZ. I have seen reports and studies that say it isn't effective on both your criteria. Those studies were on sale sample size. A Google search will find the studies.


----------



## MrMatt

Yeah the SA variant looks to be one of the worst major variants.
Vaccines appear to do pretty well against the UK variant.

We just need to watch for the stuff that going to come out of the the COVID19 petri dish that Brazil has turned into.
Also their president is showing himself to be "less than ideal" with respect to COVID.


----------



## cainvest

zinfit said:


> The South Africa government has rejected its order of AZ. I have seen reports and studies that say it isn't effective on both your criteria. Those studies were on sale sample size. A Google search will find the studies.


Here is one result ... not a very good study though.

_It is important to note that there were still no cases of hospitalization for severe Covid-19 or deaths observed in the study. Yet the authors did caution that the relatively young median age of participants (30 years) likely influenced the lack of severe Covid-19 cases._


----------



## james4beach

Canada is really moving up the ranks on vaccination measures. I'm really pleased to see this. I'm looking at the NY Times vaccination tracker. Looking at the list of countries, I'm sorting by % of population vaccinated.

*Canada is #20 out of #150*, so we're in the upper tier now.

Only a few major countries are ahead of us in vaccination: Finland, Singapore, USA, UK, Israel.

We are doing better than 130 countries, and are ahead of:

Norway
Spain
France
Germany
Sweden
Switzerland
Netherlands
Brazil
India
Russia
and many others
Thank goodness we have such a well functioning government. Hopefully everyone appreciates how lucky we are, and what a good job our federal & provincial governments are doing. Also look at the curves on the NY Times page, showing the pace of vaccination. Ours has rapidly accelerated compared to many other countries.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Thank goodness we have such a well functioning government. Hopefully everyone appreciates how lucky we are, and what a good job our federal & provincial governments are doing. Also look at the curves on the NY Times page, showing the pace of vaccination. Ours has rapidly accelerated compared to many other countries.


It's funny, once the federal government actually gets the vaccine into the hands of the provinces, things look better.
Now if they would have only closed the border to the foreign variants, we'd likely be in much better shape.

Now if we can just replace the politicians in charge of the Feds, we'd be in great shape.


----------



## MyCatMittens

james4beach said:


> Canada is really moving up the ranks on vaccination measures. I'm really pleased to see this. I'm looking at the NY Times vaccination tracker. Looking at the list of countries, I'm sorting by % of population vaccinated.
> 
> *Canada is #20 out of #150*, so we're in the upper tier now.
> 
> Only a few major countries are ahead of us in vaccination: Finland, Singapore, USA, UK, Israel.


James, 

I'm curious as to why you modified the default sorting order in the NYT table from "Doses administered per 100 people" to "partially vaccinated"? Wouldn't doses administered per 100 people be a more fair apples-to-apples comparison across countries? Would you consider a country that has fully vaccinated 49% of their population behind a country that has administered the first dose to 51% of their population?

Some of the countries that you listed as behind Canada have fully vaccinated well over double the amount Canada has (presumably because they are not following the same strategy as Canada).

My read of the table puts Canada at ~35th place?


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> Canada is really moving up the ranks on vaccination measures. I'm really pleased to see this. I'm looking at the NY Times vaccination tracker. Looking at the list of countries, I'm sorting by % of population vaccinated.
> 
> *Canada is #20 out of #150*, so we're in the upper tier now.
> 
> Only a few major countries are ahead of us in vaccination: Finland, Singapore, USA, UK, Israel.
> 
> We are doing better than 130 countries, and are ahead of:
> 
> Norway
> Spain
> France
> Germany
> Sweden
> Switzerland
> Netherlands
> Brazil
> India
> Russia
> and many others
> Thank goodness we have such a well functioning government. Hopefully everyone appreciates how lucky we are, and what a good job our federal & provincial governments are doing. Also look at the curves on the NY Times page, showing the pace of vaccination. Ours has rapidly accelerated compared to many other countries.


Sounds like Liberal talking points. The CPC might be saying as a G20 country there are 19 countries ahead of Canada. Come June we will be fortunate to access a large portion of the US surplus. That will have little to do with the competency of the current government. Newspeak and doublespeak is a trademark of this government and it does work for the loyal and uninformed.


----------



## like_to_retire

MyCatMittens said:


> Some of the countries that you listed as behind Canada have fully vaccinated well over double the amount Canada


Yes, Canada has pumped up the half-vaccinated column to 18%, while the fully-vaccinated column is still only 2.1%. A pitiful showing as a result of the federal government botching the procurement of enough vaccines, so we administer the drug against manufacturer's recommendations to cover it up.

ltr


----------



## andrewf

zinfit said:


> Sounds like Liberal talking points. The CPC might be saying as a G20 country there are 19 countries ahead of Canada. Come June we will be fortunate to access a large portion of the US surplus. That will have little to do with the competency of the current government. Newspeak and doublespeak is a trademark of this government and it does work for the loyal and uninformed.


It is absolutely not any form of charity or generosity on the part of the US. We contracted for those vaccines and they shafted us to take care of their own population. We should never forget that when push comes to shove, we are not allies.


----------



## andrewf

I don't think we should be all that excited about vaccinations. Canada is in line with most of the developed world with 20 doses per 100 population. Being at 18 or 21 is not a meaningful difference. Only a few major countries, some that managed to exploit their privileged control of the vaccine production infrastructure, are significantly ahead of the rest of the pack.

Somewhat bizarrely, we are way ahead of Russia, despite Russia having their own vaccine that was developed and flogged to the rest of the world. Why isn't Russia vaccinating its own people?


----------



## MyCatMittens

andrewf said:


> I don't think we should be all that excited about vaccinations. Canada is in line with most of the developed world with 20 doses per 100 population. Being at 18 or 21 is not a meaningful difference. Only a few major countries, some that managed to exploit their privileged control of the vaccine production infrastructure, are significantly ahead of the rest of the pack.


Agreed. I primarily took issue with the statement that "Canada is in the upper tier". I think a post pandemic review at all levels of government is warranted once we get through this - not to assign blame (that is political and will get decided at the polls if warranted), but hopefully to improve our pandemic response capability. For now, I am optimistic that our vaccine rates are improving and hoping to return to some semblance of normalcy this summer/year. In addition to those that have lost loved ones, I feel really bad for young people trying to make a start and those who have seen their businesses destroyed.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> I don't think we should be all that excited about vaccinations. Canada is in line with most of the developed world with 20 doses per 100 population. Being at 18 or 21 is not a meaningful difference. Only a few major countries, some that managed to exploit their privileged control of the vaccine production infrastructure, are significantly ahead of the rest of the pack.
> 
> Somewhat bizarrely, we are way ahead of Russia, despite Russia having their own vaccine that was developed and flogged to the rest of the world. Why isn't Russia vaccinating its own people?


Russia is broken. It's going to take generations, if ever, to build to a firstish world country.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Russia is broken. It's going to take generations, if ever, to build to a firstish world country.


Russia is in terminal decline. Its population is wasting away and eventually China is going to start nibbling.


----------



## zinfit

andrewf said:


> It is absolutely not any form of charity or generosity on the part of the US. We contracted for those vaccines and they shafted us to take care of their own population. We should never forget that when push comes to shove, we are not allies.


The US funded a good deal of the clinical trials for JNJ and Moderna and gave Pfizer 2 billion in up front money . Believe the US also helped fund the Moderna production facility. There orders were in much earlier so they get their orders first. What did Canada do on this front? Trudeau started placing orders when the train had started leaving the station. Trudeau put our resources behind Chinese vaccine development. How did that work out? We are free loaders and we are getting the supply of vaccines we deserve.I know it hard for to Trudeau followers to accept but that's the facts.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> The US funded a good deal of the clinical trials for JNJ and Moderna and gave Pfizer 2 billion in up front money . Believe the US also helped fund the Moderna production facility. There orders were in much earlier so they get their orders first. What did Canada do on this front? Trudeau started placing orders when the train had started leaving the station. Trudeau put our resources behind Chinese vaccine development. How did that work out? We are free loaders and we are getting the supply of vaccines we deserve.I know it hard for to Trudeau followers to accept but that's the facts.


None of that matters, Trudeau will still get re-elected, because he's going to promise everyone even more free money.


----------



## Eder

All Canadians are now being punished by Trudeau's incompetence but at least 33% of them like it.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> It is absolutely not any form of charity or generosity on the part of the US. We contracted for those vaccines and they shafted us to take care of their own population. We should never forget that when push comes to shove, we are not allies.


And it also makes me wonder how much they would defend us in case of war or foreign invasion.

I think this should be a wake up call to us. It's probably time for us to forge closer alliances with European countries.


----------



## james4beach

MyCatMittens said:


> I'm curious as to why you modified the default sorting order in the NYT table from "Doses administered per 100 people" to "partially vaccinated"? Wouldn't doses administered per 100 people be a more fair apples-to-apples comparison across countries?


It depends on what goal you are interested in ranking. I was interested in knowing what % of people have protection against COVID, today. Sorting by 'partially vaccinated' shows that number.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> It depends on what goal you are interested in ranking. I was interested in knowing what % of people have protection against COVID, today. Sorting by 'partially vaccinated' shows that number.


Yes, but there is also the consideration that "given one shot" is not necessarily "partially vaccinated".
We know that there is some protection for some time.
But it's not enough to be considered effective, which is why it is generally 2 doses.
We also don't know how long the vaccine lasts, however there has been research suggesting that 
1. It differs widely by vaccine.
2. Some vaccines 1st dose will continue to at least 12 week, while some vaccines will show a marked decline in effectiveness at 12 weeks.

Since our vaccination process has been going over 12 weeks, it is possible (as suggested by data) that the immune response for some people has dropped significantly from peak protection from the single dose.

As such "partially vaccinated" is not accurate, it's almost certainly an overestimate of who is actually being "protected" by the vaccine and to what extent.

I think until the 4 month data is out, anyone who hasn't been given the vaccine in accordance with the approved schedule can't be considered "vaccinated". 
This is very unfortunate because I'm already hearing people who had their first shot say "I'm vaccinated, the lockdown shouldn't apply to me", this will get worse and be very divisive.
This is particularly problematic as I can't get a vaccine today due to geographic, age and racial discrimination.
Specifically, if I was in a different location, I would qualify, if I was a different age i would qualify, if I was a different race, I would qualify.


----------



## Money172375

Discrimination usually implies that something is unjust. I don’t think the strategy of vaccinating the old, the hard hit, the poor is unjust. Younger, white, wealthier Canadians have probably fared the best in terms of Covid cases and deaths.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Yes, but there is also the consideration that "given one shot" is not necessarily "partially vaccinated".
> We know that there is some protection for some time.
> But it's not enough to be considered effective, which is why it is generally 2 doses.


One dose is definitely enough to be protected in the interim. In the short term, one shot is enough, and it's effective.

You can read the Public Health argument in this document: Public_health_statement_deferred_second_dose.pdf

As I wrote before, if Nazis were dropping bombs on our cities right now, we'd make some compromises with the tools and supplies we have available to us. Here's how the BCCDC states it:

_At this point in the epidemic, when we have only protected a small proportion of the population, providing a first dose to as many people as possible will save more lives and avoid more cases and hospitalisations than providing a second dose to a smaller number of people._

and they present an example:



> You are the head of an emergency department of 100 staff. You know that vaccine protection in the short
> term exceeds 80% whether you get one dose or two doses. We don’t know how long protection lasts
> thereafter for either one or two doses, but the pandemic risk is elevated now. We have enough vaccine
> supply now to give you 100 doses. We expect to get more doses later. Based on the above, how would you
> allocate those 100 doses: would you give one dose to all 100 staff who would get 80% protection or two
> doses to 50 staff who would get 90% protection?
> 
> Option 1 (single dose) would leave 20 of your staff unprotected (i.e. 100 * 0.20);
> Option 2 (two dose) would leave 55 of your staff unprotected (i.e. 50 + 50*0.10 = 55).


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> One dose is definitely enough to be protected in the interim. In the short term, one shot is enough, and it's effective.


It is possible that one dose is enough.
However looking at the data I have to disagree with "definitely enough".

From you link efficacy after 14 days is somewhere between 60-100%.
If it happens to be at the low end of 60%-70% after 14 days, that would be very concerning.
if it continues to fall after 14 days it might be far short of what is required after 2+ months
Interestingly AZ claims 76% up to 90 days or the second dose, at which point it drops to 67% effective. That doesn't make sense, would you have a more effective vaccine if you only took 1 dose?

Finally I'm assuming this is against the initial strain, what is the impact against the variants?

I'd like to point out a few discrepancies.
They report AZ effectiveness out to 90 days for a single dose, but not the other 2 
The significant drop in AZ effectiveness after the second dose is "interesting" How does the booster lower effectiveness?
Pfizer reported 52% single dose efficacy but BC health estimates 93% ?

Also I think this is a very misleading statement.
"There is no indication that protection after the first dose declines rapidly over time. "
There is also no indication that protect after the first dose is maintained over time. Note they only mentioned data for 1 of the vaccines discussed.


I'm *not *saying is that the current approach is wrong, it might very well be the correct approach. See their note/example.
That being said, I *am *saying that *the data to support it isn't there*, or being clearly communicated. 
Or at worst they're hiding the data, though I think this is unlikely. I'd like to hope that if they are hiding information we'd get a leak, but whistleblower protection in Canada is abysmal.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> I'm *not *saying is that the current approach is wrong, it might very well be the correct approach. See their note/example.
> That being said, I *am *saying that *the data to support it isn't there*, or being clearly communicated.
> Or at worst they're hiding the data, though I think this is unlikely. I'd like to hope that if they are hiding information we'd get a leak, but whistleblower protection in Canada is abysmal.


I doubt they are hiding any data. I think they are making educated guesses based on what is generally known about vaccine based immunity. I heard one of the BC immunology researchers involved in making this decision on a radio program, and she was describing how they are relying on general patterns seen across vaccines and immune responses.

I don't have a link, but I also read notes or commentary from several doctors debating Canada's decision in a medical journal or something like that. There were strong arguments on both sides of the debate.


----------



## MyCatMittens

james4beach said:


> It depends on what goal you are interested in ranking. I was interested in knowing what % of people have protection against COVID, today. Sorting by 'partially vaccinated' shows that number.


Agreed. But that was not your conclusion. You looked at that number, and proclaimed Canada was in the "Top Tier" and that we were 20th overall.. using an apples-to-oranges comparison. I agree it is a interesting number, but using that as some sort of ranking method is just nonsense.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I doubt they are hiding any data. I think they are making educated guesses.
> 
> I don't have a link, but I also read notes or commentary from several doctors debating Canada's decision in a medical journal or something like that. There were strong arguments on both sides of the debate.


I agree I think they're making a guess, without data to support it.


----------



## james4beach

MyCatMittens said:


> Agreed. But that was not your conclusion. You looked at that number, and proclaimed Canada was in the "Top Tier" and that we were 20th overall.. using an apples-to-oranges comparison. I agree it is a interesting number, but using that as some sort of ranking method is just nonsense.


It's not apples to oranges. I compared all countries based on the same metric.

You just don't like that metric, because you disagree with the logic I'm using, or don't think a single dose matters much. I _do_ think a single dose matters much.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> I agree I think they're making a guess, without data to support it.


No explicit data for this current situation (that I know of), but certainly using data from past diseases and vaccines.

It's not ideal, I agree, but it's also not pulling a number out of thin air.

It's kind of like engineering work or any other field. We don't always have perfect data, especially for new situations. In the absence of the most relevant, exact data, you fall back on generalities you know, based on similar or closely related things.

To be honest MrMatt, I am more comfortable about this decision because BC (and Bonnie Henry, with experience fighting Ebola and SARS) supported it. As I recall, the approach actually originated in BC, not in Ottawa. I would be much more anxious about the approach if it originated from Tam and PHAC or was imposed by Tam.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> No explicit data for this current situation (that I know of), but certainly using data from past diseases and vaccines.
> 
> It's not ideal, I agree, but it's also not pulling a number out of thin air.
> 
> It's kind of like engineering work or any other field. We don't always have perfect data, especially for new situations. In the absence of the most relevant, exact data, you fall back on generalities you know, based on similar or closely related things.


As an Engineer I agree, you should fall back on what you know.

My issue, in this case, is that they're basing their actions of guesses, not the known public data.



> To be honest MrMatt, I am more comfortable about this decision because BC (and Bonnie Henry, with experience fighting Ebola and SARS) supported it. As I recall, the approach actually originated in BC, not in Ottawa. I would be much more anxious about the approach if it originated from Tam and PHAC or was imposed by Tam.


As Dr Tam should, on paper, be the ideal expert to lead the response to COVID19.
Her repeated failures and exceptionally poor judgement makes me question experts who don't clearly and openly explain their decisions. I honestly never expected our public service could act so negligently and retain their position. IMO she should have been fired last march, and the failure to hold her accountable has greatly reduced my faith in such experts.

Make no mistake, the amount of damage she's done to the credibility of public health has been immense.


----------



## MyCatMittens

james4beach said:


> It's not apples to oranges. I compared all countries based on the same metric.
> 
> You just don't like that metric, because you disagree with the logic I'm using, or don't think a single dose matters much. I _do_ think a single dose matters much.


I have no issue with that metric, and I think a single dose does matter. 

The metric just isn't valid to compare country to country. Doses per 100 is valid - it is agnostic as to whether the country decided to give 2 or 1 first. As I said in my original message, if a country has fully vaccinated 49% of their population, you are telling me that a country that gave 1 dose (partially vaccinated) to 51% is ahead of them. I disagree with what was a very political spin on an invalid metric for comparison purposes.


----------



## MrMatt

MyCatMittens said:


> I have no issue with that metric, and I think a single dose does matter.
> 
> The metric just isn't valid to compare country to country. Doses per 100 is valid - it is agnostic as to whether the country decided to give 2 or 1 first. As I said in my original message, if a country has fully vaccinated 49% of their population, you are telling me that a country that gave 1 dose (partially vaccinated) to 51% is ahead of them. I disagree with what was a very political spin on an invalid metric for comparison purposes.


My issue is that the term "partially vaccinated" is misleading.
We are getting a partial vaccination, with no idea on it's effectiveness or longevity at this point.
While I suspect there is some impact at >90 days, as far as I know only AZ has published data at that time, and there is no published data for the vaccines they are using at 4+ months.

This is a national scale experiment, with our lives on the line. Not only that, this experiment has been going for over 4 months, they should be able to get some preliminary data out.
Or are they running the experiment and not collecting data to see if they're on track.

And it's being pushed by an incompetent government who has shown themselves to be dishonest if not outright negligent in the handling of the pandemic.
No their performance hasn't been Bolsanaro, or even Boris Johnson bad, but there have been far too many "unforced errors" IMO.

If this is such a good idea, how come they aren't showing us the data a marginally competent scientist would have?


----------



## kcowan

Eder said:


> All Canadians are now being punished by Trudeau's incompetence but at least 33% of them like it.


Our only hope is that Ontario voter blame Trudeau for the poor response to the pandemic.


----------



## MrMatt

kcowan said:


> Our only hope is that Ontario voter blame Trudeau for the poor response to the pandemic.


That really depends on if Ford thinks his support will knock Trudeau out.
Ford has been playing nice to get stuff, if he turns on Trudeau and calls him out like he should, Trudeau will retaliate harshly.


The problem is, actual handling of COVID19 issues is a provincial responsibility.
The federal mismanagement vaccines, travel restrictions etc are federal, and it's not quite as obvious about their failures. Heck some people actually thought Trudea closed the border last year.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> That really depends on if Ford thinks his support will knock Trudeau out.
> Ford has been playing nice to get stuff, if he turns on Trudeau and calls him out like he should, Trudeau will retaliate harshly.
> 
> 
> The problem is, actual handling of COVID19 issues is a provincial responsibility.
> The federal mismanagement vaccines, travel restrictions etc are federal, and it's not quite as obvious about their failures. Heck some people actually thought Trudea closed the border last year.


Maybe you're not Ontarian, but Ford started attacking Trudeau weeks ago when he started feeling the heat for his own management of the pandemic here.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Maybe you're not Ontarian, but Ford started attacking Trudeau weeks ago when he started feeling the heat for his own management of the pandemic here.


I'm an Ontarian, but Fords attacks have always been quite muted.

I'm beyond furious that Trudeau never closed the borders. 
Even today people are trying to skip quarantines.

I think Ford is actually doing quite well, he's actually been IMO one of the better performing leaders in this pandemic.
The only issue is that public support for lockdowns is dropping.

I think one of the problems is that the blame for everything gets dumped on the provinces, while Teflon Trudeau skates by with barely any consequences.
It's actually impressive.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> I'm beyond furious that Trudeau never closed the borders.
> Even today people are trying to skip quarantines.


Most opposition partisans don't agree with you. I supported an Australia-style 14 day hotel quarantine for non-essential travelers, as long as it could be administered competently. The experience hasn't inspired a lot of confidence (with people going many hours without being fed). I'm not sure how effective this would have been with so much essential worker travel crossing the border--maybe with rapid testing this could be addressed. I'm not convinced there was an easy answer. There was extreme wailing and gnashing of teeth about what little controls the govt put in place on travel.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Most opposition partisans don't agree with you.


No doubt, I don't agree with a lot of their ideas as well.



> I supported an Australia-style 14 day hotel quarantine for non-essential travelers, as long as it could be administered competently.


I'm for a 14 day quarantine, from the very beginning.
I'd be all sorts of government programs if they could be administered competently and efficiently, but that simply doesn't happen. I don't think that we should abandon a good policy simply because the government is pathologically capable of doing it well.
Sometimes we should do things because they're the right thing to do, even if they're not done as well as they should be, we should still try.


----------



## james4beach

MyCatMittens said:


> The metric just isn't valid to compare country to country. Doses per 100 is valid - it is agnostic as to whether the country decided to give 2 or 1 first. As I said in my original message, if a country has fully vaccinated 49% of their population, you are telling me that a country that gave 1 dose (partially vaccinated) to 51% is ahead of them. I disagree with what was a very political spin on an invalid metric for comparison purposes.


I'm not clear on what they mean by doses per 100. Are you positive you understand what that metric means?

It seems to me that YOU are being political here by adding a political spin to something that isn't political.


----------



## zinfit

Let's be clear almost everyone here has a political agenda.I am pretty sure I could name the Liberals,Dippers and Conseratives with a very high degree of accuracy based on their comments. Using the NY Times as the source for ones information is a pretty clear red flag.


----------



## cainvest

zinfit said:


> Let's be clear almost everyone here has a political agenda.I am pretty sure I could name the Liberals,Dippers and Conseratives with a very high degree of accuracy based on their comments.


Not everyone has political agenda backing/biasing their posts though it's clear many do. It's sad really that many people can't discuss a topic at hand without twisting it to promote their political objective.


----------



## MyCatMittens

james4beach said:


> I'm not clear on what they mean by doses per 100. Are you positive you understand what that metric means?
> 
> It seems to me that YOU are being political here by adding a political spin to something that isn't political.


Umm. Doses administered per 100 people? Maybe I am missing something, but I thought that was pretty clear? If you had 100 doses and you gave 2 to one person, it would be 2... if you had a 100 doses and you gave 1 dose to 2 different people, it would still be 2? I wasn't trying to be political?

Clearly I am missing something here. What am I missing?


----------



## MyCatMittens

cainvest said:


> Not everyone has political agenda backing/biasing their posts though it's clear many do. It's sad really that many people can't discuss a topic at hand without twisting it to promote their political objective.


It is insane how far up a party's rear end people in Canada are becoming. The United States is bad, but I fear we are rapidly approaching them being a very left vs. right divided country. As far as Covid goes, I just want to return to some sense of normalcy. I'm cheering on all levels of government to be successful - I have no axe to grind here.

<back to lurker mode>


----------



## james4beach

MyCatMittens said:


> Clearly I am missing something here. What am I missing?


Let's say two countries each have 100 people, and each give the same "100 doses per 100". According to this metric you are pushing for, they are *equally* ranked.

Country A has gotten vaccine into 100 people by giving single shots to all 100.
Country B has gotten vaccine into 50 people by giving two shots to 50 people.

Which country has achieved stronger protection, in the medium term? It's clear that Country A has protected more people by vaccination. And yet, using this metric you are pushing for, they would be equally ranked.

I would argue that the equal ranking is giving an improper picture of the relative positions of those two countries.

So the doses per 100 is not a superior metric, nor does it give a fair assessment of the protection different countries have achieved. There are obviously arguments for choosing different metrics, depending on what perspective you approach this from.


----------



## MyCatMittens

james4beach said:


> Let's say two countries each have 100 people, and each give the same "100 doses per 100". According to this metric you are pushing for, they are *equally* ranked.


Ah. I would have argued that they are equally ranked. Country A's medical system felt that it was better to partially vaccinate their entire population, whereas Country B's felt that it was better to adhere to the manufacturer recommendations and fully vaccinate (perhaps by risk) half of their population. While I'm more partial to A myself, I have absolutely no expertise in this area . In terms of who had a better approach, I suppose time will tell.


----------



## :) lonewolf

The drug dealers are calling the MRNA vaccines, vaccines to get fast track approval without the proper testing. Vaccines have always had a piece of the virus in them. There is no reason to vaccinate young people against Covid with a vaccine more deadly to them then the virus. Why not use the old method instead of evil experiments? Immunity has been given to the drug dealers in regard to any negligence. SINsorship of anything negative about the MRNA is the norm.


----------



## :) lonewolf

corbettreport.com/the-future-of-vaccines/ You tube SINsorshiped this video


----------



## :) lonewolf

Mini mouse asks Mighty mouse "Have you been vaccinated for Covid"

Mighty mouse replies " No, They have not finished testing MRNA on humans"


----------



## :) lonewolf

MrMatt said:


> As Dr Tam should, on paper, be the ideal expert to lead the response to COVID19.
> Her repeated failures and exceptionally poor judgement makes me question experts who don't clearly and openly explain their decisions. .
> 
> Make no mistake, the amount of damage she's done to the credibility of public health has been immense.


I would not call the thing a Doctor. They need to send the thing back to the corrupt WHO. Micro soft supplied the corrupt Dominion voting machines that allowed the dead to do their patriotic duty of voting 300 years after they have died. Follow the money WHO funds WHO has a history of corruption & a monopoly on World Health


----------



## Money172375

US pausing [email protected] due to blood clots.



https://twitter.com/i/events/1381929259438989318?s=21


----------



## Money172375

As of 4/12, 6.8m+ doses of the J&J vaccine have been administered in the U.S. CDC & FDA are reviewing data involving 6 reported U.S. cases of a rare & severe type of blood clot in individuals after receiving the vaccine. Right now, these adverse events appear to be extremely rare


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> As of 4/12, 6.8m+ doses of the J&J vaccine have been administered in the U.S. CDC & FDA are reviewing data involving 6 reported U.S. cases of a rare & severe type of blood clot in individuals after receiving the vaccine. Right now, these adverse events appear to be extremely rare


Doesn't matter, people don't get math.
Blood clots from Birth control are way more common than from the AZ vaccine, and people are still hesitant on AZ, but I know lots of people on birth control


----------



## bgc_fan

Money172375 said:


> As of 4/12, 6.8m+ doses of the J&J vaccine have been administered in the U.S. CDC & FDA are reviewing data involving 6 reported U.S. cases of a rare & severe type of blood clot in individuals after receiving the vaccine. Right now, these adverse events appear to be extremely rare


Seems to be similar to the AstraZeneca vaccine, and to speculate, may have to do with the fact that they're both viral vector vaccines. Two other vaccines are using the same technology: Sputnik and CanSino, so it would be interesting to see if anyone has been tracking similar events. Given how rare it is, I doubt people have been reporting it.

Percentages are pretty low and seem to affect a specific population, so maybe it would be worth seeing the similarities between the people who have experienced the adverse event.


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> Seems to be similar to the AstraZeneca vaccine, and to speculate, may have to do with the fact that they're both viral vector vaccines. Two other vaccines are using the same technology: Sputnik and CanSino, so it would be interesting to see if anyone has been tracking similar events. Given how rare it is, I doubt people have been reporting it.
> 
> Percentages are pretty low and seem to affect a specific population, so maybe it would be worth seeing the similarities between the people who have experienced the adverse event.


Pretty low? 
Incredibly low, closer to naturally occuring blood clots than the much higher rates caused by birth control pills


----------



## Money172375

First case of clots in Canada. 40% mortality for those that experience the very, very rare clotting seems rather alarming. 



https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-first-case-blood-clots-astrazeneca-oxford-vaccine-vipit-1.5985755


----------



## robfordlives

Do you honestly think there are only six cases though? Reading lots of online reports where there was only JnJ administered on certain vaccination sites and MULTIPLE ambulance calls every hour. Clearly CDC lying about the numbers and no I'm not some anti-vax kook I am getting my first dose this weekend


----------



## andrewf

robfordlives said:


> Do you honestly think there are only six cases though? Reading lots of online reports where there was only JnJ administered on certain vaccination sites and MULTIPLE ambulance calls every hour. Clearly CDC lying about the numbers and no I'm not some anti-vax kook I am getting my first dose this weekend


Even if true, it could be for any number of reactions. No one was suggesting that the vaccine is completely without side effects or risk, just that the balance of risks strongly favour getting vaccinated than not.


----------



## zinfit

robfordlives said:


> Do you honestly think there are only six cases though? Reading lots of online reports where there was only JnJ administered on certain vaccination sites and MULTIPLE ambulance calls every hour. Clearly CDC lying about the numbers and no I'm not some anti-vax kook I am getting my first dose this weekend


BS if true it would be a headline story. Neither For or CNN could ignore this story.


----------



## MrMatt

robfordlives said:


> Do you honestly think there are only six cases though? Reading lots of online reports where there was only JnJ administered on certain vaccination sites and MULTIPLE ambulance calls every hour. Clearly CDC lying about the numbers and no I'm not some anti-vax kook I am getting my first dose this weekend


Depends on the size of the venue, also I'd expect people to be calling an ambulance at the slightest hint of trouble.

But doesn't matter
1 in a million, 2 in a million, 10 in a million.
It's way better than 2% death rate of COVID19, or even the 100 in a million who get blod clots from birth control pills.

Heck being a smoker is enough to knock you up by an order of magitude or more in blood clot risk.
it's more dangerous to be a smoker, than to take the JNJ or AZ vaccines, even if you only consider blood clot risk.


----------



## sags

The blood clots from the vaccines is in addition to any other way blood clots develop.

Blood clots are not all the same either.

Bruises are technically blood clots but they aren't normally fatal.

It also isn't "normal" to have blood clots cover your entire body, as some doctors said they witnessed for the first time in their medical careers, in people soon after they were injected with the AZ vaccine.


----------



## sags

Does the J&J also use chimpanzee DNA (or whatever it is) in their vaccine as AZ does ?

The conspiracy theory in me thinks......hmm, the blood clots are coming when a "normal" type of vaccine is used against the virus but not exhibited in the new MNRA vaccines which nobody could have predicted would be developed so quickly.

It almost looks like the virus naturally developed.....or was developed in a lab into a virus with the potential to avoid normal vaccines.

Isn't that the type of research they might have been doing in a lab in Wuhan ?

What do they call it......."gain of function" research on viruses in bats ?


----------



## OptsyEagle

All I know is that if Pfizer and Moderna vaccines did not exist, no one would be halting the use of AZ or JNJ for even a day, because of these blood clots. That said, they do exist. 

Will be interesting to see what happens in the US. Will they send all their AZ and JNJ to other countries? Must be nice to have a choice.


----------



## sags

People need to have confidence in a vaccine or they simply won't take it.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> People need to have confidence in a vaccine or they simply won't take it.


That's the problems with antivaxxers taking facts out of context.

Combine an opportunistic and fear mongering media with an ignorant population and you've got a big problem.

Unfortunately it looks like the antivaxxers are winning this round, hopefully as countries ditch reasonably safe vaccines, the supplies will increase and I'll get mine.


----------



## :) lonewolf

The Covid variant is only .3% different from when it was first was discovered in China. Moderator removes video source of Michael Yeadon VP of Pfizer so you will have to do your own google search. You tube, LinkedIn, Face book, Twitter remove anything negative about the vaccines.

James Corbert has a video on the futures of vaccines that is very informative as well Michael Yeadons interview former Pfizer VP speaks out on dangers of MRNA. If links are posted to the videos I mention the moderators on this site just remove. Do you really trust the drug dealers without doing research of seeing videos that are being removed from the net ?


----------



## Eder

About the AZ & J&J shots

One theory being explored is that blood clot issues with them could be linked to birth control since it has occurred only in women of child-bearing age.

Oh... I like MNRA...it will open up customizable treatments for a myriad of diseases. A few zombies here & there...well, we all know some zombies already...


----------



## andrewf

Some context for everyone who was freaking out about Canada being a basket case on vaccines compared to the city on the hill, the US. We are today at the same rate of vaccination that the US was at a month ago. We did it without abusing our privilege of domestic vaccine supply (we have none to abuse). Of course, this is almost entirely thanks to the EU. Our American "friends" left us to twist.

I said in January that the vaccination rollout was a marathon, not a sprint.









Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations - Statistics and Research


Our vaccination dataset uses the most recent official numbers from governments and health ministries worldwide. The population estimates we use to calculate per-capita metrics are all based on the last revision of the United Nations World Population Prospects. A full list of our country-specific...




ourworldindata.org


----------



## cainvest

Two close friends got the pfizer shot today ... no side effects, not even a sore arm. 
Both thought the process/layout was good and efficient, ~35 mins in to out time.

Side note: You do "kind of" get to choose what shot you get (pfizer or AZ) by where you book it. Nobody I know got Moderna.


----------



## zinfit

cainvest said:


> Two close friends got the pfizer shot today ... no side effects, not even a sore arm.
> Both thought the process/layout was good and efficient, ~35 mins in to out time.
> 
> Side note: You do "kind of" get to choose what shot you get (pfizer or AZ) by where you book it. Nobody I know has gotten Moderna.


Messenger RNA vaccines and technology are a tribute to modern science. It think it is also amazing how many doses they can manufacture per day. We got our second dose of Moderna in February and neither my spouse or myself have a hint of a adverse side effect. I watched the Moderna CEO this morning on CNBC ,. He said some amazing things. He did say even with a suspension of JNJ /Pfiser the USA would have an over supply of vaccines by May 15. That should be viewed as a positive.


----------



## :) lonewolf

cainvest said:


> Two close friends got the pfizer shot today ... no side effects, not even a sore arm.
> 
> 
> Side note: You do "kind of" get to choose what shot you get (pfizer or AZ) by where you book it. Nobody I know got Moderna.


Wow, after only one day you can determine that there are no side effects. No need to call in the mice for long term testing. Keep the vaccines coming saturate our bodies with vaccines every time the virus scaryant changes .001%. Reward the drug dealers with endless supplies of tax payers money on their Conjob 19 with a limitless market for vaccines. No jab No job get your vaccine passport updated based on the whims of the drug dealers.


----------



## Eder

cainvest said:


> Two close friends got the pfizer shot today ... no side effects, not even a sore arm.
> Both thought the process/layout was good and efficient, ~35 mins in to out time.
> 
> Side note: You do "kind of" get to choose what shot you get (pfizer or AZ) by where you book it. Nobody I know got Moderna.


My wife got her 2nd shot of Pfizer yesterday...she feels great no side effects. 1st shot she got dizzy & tired for about 2 days.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Looks like the vaccines are pretty much getting this covid thing under wraps in UK and Israel. I believe that would be Astrazeneca working well in the UK, and Pfizer kicking some covid @ss in Israel.


----------



## like_to_retire

Tucker Carlson slams Trudeau’s vaccine statements.

_“The leader of Canada just explained on television that according to the science, the vaccine doesn’t stop COVID. Either the coronavirus shot works or it doesn’t, but the shot cannot be simultaneously highly effective, but not restore peoples’ lives to normal; that doesn’t make sense,”_

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Looks like the vaccines are pretty much getting this covid thing under wraps in UK and Israel. I believe that would be Astrazeneca working well in the UK, and Pfizer kicking some covid @ss in Israel.


The thing is, even if AZ is as bad as the anti-vaxxers say, if we vaccinated every person over 18, the number of people to die from the vaccine would be only 1-3 days of COVID deaths.

From the data, I 'd suggest mandatory vaccination of everyone is clearly in the public good.
However I'm very much against forcing medical procedures on people without their consent.

In this case, because I'm a liberal, the individual rights must win out.


----------



## MrBlackhill

We're all happy about the vaccine and we are seeing an end to COVID but... meanwhile... daily new cases are reaching their highest level ever, mainly due to India becoming a total disaster with 200,000 new cases daily and rising exponentially. Also, Brazil is at 3,000 daily deaths. We're about to reach 3M deaths worldwide.

Don't take the victory for granted. Even Canada is reaching its highest daily new cases.

Makes me want to move to Australia.


----------



## MrMatt

MrBlackhill said:


> Makes me want to move to Australia.


They don't have Jello pudding in .au

'nuff said


----------



## OptsyEagle

So this new study is saying that these blood clots are just as prevalent in the Pfizer and Moderna vaccine as they are in the Astrazeneca and Johnson & Johnson.



> According to the study, 4 in 1 million people experience cerebral venous thrombosis after getting the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine, versus 5 in 1 million people for the AstraZeneca vaccine. The risk of getting CVT is much higher for those who get COVID-19 -- 39 in a million patients -- than it is for those for get vaccinated











Blood clots as prevalent with Pfizer and Moderna vaccine as with AstraZeneca's: study


A study by Oxford University found the number of people who receive blood clots after getting vaccinated with a coronavirus vaccine are about the same for...




www.marketwatch.com


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> So this new study is saying that these blood clots are just as prevalent in the Pfizer and Moderna vaccine as they are in the Astrazeneca and Johnson & Johnson.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blood clots as prevalent with Pfizer and Moderna vaccine as with AstraZeneca's: study
> 
> 
> A study by Oxford University found the number of people who receive blood clots after getting vaccinated with a coronavirus vaccine are about the same for...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.marketwatch.com


Both beat the 2-3% fatality rate of COVID19.


----------



## sags

like_to_retire said:


> Tucker Carlson slams Trudeau’s vaccine statements.
> 
> _“The leader of Canada just explained on television that according to the science, the vaccine doesn’t stop COVID. Either the coronavirus shot works or it doesn’t, but the shot cannot be simultaneously highly effective, but not restore peoples’ lives to normal; that doesn’t make sense,”_
> 
> ltr


Trudeau is right and Carlson reveals his ignorance on the virus.

Vaccinated people can still get and spread the virus. The vaccine prevents them from getting the most severe symptoms of the infection.

This is especially true of the new variants that are taking over.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Trudeau is right and Carlson reveals his ignorance on the virus.
> 
> Vaccinated people can still get and spread the virus. The vaccine prevents them from getting the most severe symptoms of the infection.
> 
> This is especially true of the new variants that are taking over.


Care to substantiate that claim? 

Maybe you can tell the US CDC they're wrong?

“Vaccinated people do not carry the virus — they don’t get sick,” Dr. Rochelle Walensky, director of the CDC, told MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow on Tuesday. That’s “not just in the clinical trials, but it’s also in real-world data.” 


https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/04/cdc-data-suggests-vaccinated-dont-carry-cant-spread-virus.html



Come on, share with us all this groundbreaking science you and Justin seem to have.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> Both beat the 2-3% fatality rate of COVID19.


Of course. The main issue here is that many countries around the world, including ours, have either discontinued the use of some of these vaccines or restricted their use based on age.

If it turns out, as they are saying in this study, that they are all pretty much the same, then we need to eliminate these ridiculous restrictions and start vaccinating people at a quicker rate with whatever vaccine is available.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Care to substantiate that claim?
> 
> Maybe you can tell the US CDC they're wrong?
> 
> “Vaccinated people do not carry the virus — they don’t get sick,” Dr. Rochelle Walensky, director of the CDC, told MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow on Tuesday. That’s “not just in the clinical trials, but it’s also in real-world data.”
> 
> 
> https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/04/cdc-data-suggests-vaccinated-dont-carry-cant-spread-virus.html
> 
> 
> 
> Come on, share with us all this groundbreaking science you and Justin seem to have.


I don't think it is conclusively demonstrated either way. Given that the vaccines aren't perfect at preventing infection, it stands to reason that infected individuals can be capable of shedding enough virus to infect another person. How reduced that is remains to be demonstrated. But to say that vaccinated people 'do not carry the virus' is not supported by the clinical trials. I think this is a case of CDC dumbing down the message in hopes of getting people over the vaccine hesitancy hump.

From the link you referenced:



> Even the Centers for Disease Control hedged on Walensky’s claims. “Dr. Walensky spoke broadly during this interview,” a CDC spokesperson told the _Times_. “It’s possible that some people who are fully vaccinated could get Covid-19. The evidence isn’t clear whether they can spread the virus to others. We are continuing to evaluate the evidence.”


While there remains high background levels of COVID-19 infection, it makes sense for even vaccinated people to wear a mask to avoid spreading a latent infection to an unvaccinated person. Groups of vaccinated people can be around each other maskless and should be reasonably safe. This isn't forever. Once the virus is tamped down and a reasonable number of people are vaccinated, it is unlikely to flare up again in the same way. This counts on vaccinated people being uniformly distributed through society. If social groups tend to have highly correlated vaccine hesitancy, like religious organizations or looney conservatives, you could still get big outbreaks, especially when we start relaxing distancing/masking.


----------



## Money172375

Pfizer CEO says 3rd shot may be needed within 6-12 months.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Maybe you can tell the US CDC they're wrong?
> 
> “Vaccinated people do not carry the virus — they don’t get sick,” Dr. Rochelle Walensky, director of the CDC, told MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow on Tuesday. That’s “not just in the clinical trials, but it’s also in real-world data.”
> 
> 
> https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/04/cdc-data-suggests-vaccinated-dont-carry-cant-spread-virus.html
> 
> 
> 
> Come on, share with us all this groundbreaking science you and Justin seem to have.


Well the CDC did report this ... seems to be a conflict of info here?

_The U.S. has found 5,800 “breakthrough” cases of Covid-19, in which a fully vaccinated person was infected, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said. The nation has fully vaccinated more than 75 million people.

Breakthrough infections occurred among all ages but more than 40% were 60 years and older. A third of the cases were asymptomatic, and almost two thirds were female. Seven percent were hospitalized and 1% died.
_


----------



## :) lonewolf

Money172375 said:


> Pfizer CEO says 3rd shot may be needed within 6-12 months.


Why is the Pfizer CEO saying this ? Follow the money. A former VP Michael Yeadon says he will leave the country that he is living in if they become mandatory due to their dangers. This was in the video I posted which was removed. A 3rd shot is going to increase chances of auto immune disease. Dr Stephen Malthouse MD Canadian Health Alliance.org was interviewed recently on the Goddard report & based on the Nuremberg laws they are suppose to be telling people that these are test vaccines & of their dangers. It is also a good video which you might want to watch in regards to the dangers of the vaccines & Conjob 19


----------



## bgc_fan

cainvest said:


> Well the CDC did report this ... seems to be a conflict of info here?
> 
> _The U.S. has found 5,800 “breakthrough” cases of Covid-19, in which a fully vaccinated person was infected, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said. The nation has fully vaccinated more than 75 million people.
> 
> Breakthrough infections occurred among all ages but more than 40% were 60 years and older. A third of the cases were asymptomatic, and almost two thirds were female. Seven percent were hospitalized and 1% died._











So far, 5,800 fully vaccinated people have caught Covid anyway in US, CDC says | CNN


About 5,800 people out of tens of millions who have been vaccinated against coronavirus have become infected anyway, the CDC tells CNN.




www.cnn.com





I think the point is that the science is always changing. Also, it's not evident when they got infected, i.e. we know it takes time for the effectiveness of the vaccine to reach its maximum point. If the infection occurred within a week or two of the vaccine, it's not unexpected. But it does emphasize the fact that restrictions still need to be in place until heard immunity levels are reached.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Well the CDC did report this ... seems to be a conflict of info here?
> 
> _The U.S. has found 5,800 “breakthrough” cases of Covid-19, in which a fully vaccinated person was infected, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said. The nation has fully vaccinated more than 75 million people.
> 
> Breakthrough infections occurred among all ages but more than 40% were 60 years and older. A third of the cases were asymptomatic, and almost two thirds were female. Seven percent were hospitalized and 1% died._


Interesting isn't it?
They're actually claiming both things at the same time.

Really sheds doubt on the vaccine passport, and I'm vaccinated so I can do whatever I want idea that some idiots are promoting.

My takeaway is that it is very dangerous if you let any one "expert" determine what truth can be shared.
That's why any "vaccine disinformation" restrictions are a problematic infringement on free speech.


----------



## :) lonewolf

bgc_fan said:


> So far, 5,800 fully vaccinated people have caught Covid anyway in US, CDC says | CNN
> 
> 
> About 5,800 people out of tens of millions who have been vaccinated against coronavirus have become infected anyway, the CDC tells CNN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the point is that the science is always changing. Also, it's not evident when they got infected, i.e. we know it takes time for the effectiveness of the vaccine to reach its maximum point. If the infection occurred within a week or two of the vaccine, it's not unexpected. But it does emphasize the fact that restrictions still need to be in place until heard immunity levels are reached.


According to Dr Stephen Malthouse to increase the number of false positives on the PCR test just magnify the setting. In fact the setting can be adjusted so high that everyone would test positive. Right now it is over 90% false positive. Trust in drug dealers


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Really sheds doubt on the vaccine passport, and I'm vaccinated so I can do whatever I want idea that some idiots are promoting.


Right. We're in the middle of a pandemic, with a virus that still is not fully understood.

Caution should be maintained. Masks and social distancing, even if someone is vaccinated.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Interesting isn't it?
> They're actually claiming both things at the same time.
> 
> Really sheds doubt on the vaccine passport, and I'm vaccinated so I can do whatever I want idea that some idiots are promoting.
> 
> My takeaway is that it is very dangerous if you let any one "expert" determine what truth can be shared.
> That's why any "vaccine disinformation" restrictions are a problematic infringement on free speech.


If you look at the story you yourself linked to earlier, a CDC spokesperson walked back the doctor's declaratory 'vaccinated people don't carry the virus' statement. We should be dubious of any absolute statements like this, anyway. I think it is a matter of the doctor exaggerating while trying to make a point. Doesn't stop people from soundbyting that statement and declaring that as soon as people are vaccinated we can abandon all precautions. We will get there eventually, but we need background rate of infection to subside and more people vaccinated. Eventually the population will be like damp timber and only be able to smoulder and not buiild into the raging wildfires we have been fighting through these waves.


----------



## Eder

Lol...so the fact 1/100th of 1% of vaccinated people in the USA poses a risk of reinfection that is unacceptable.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> Lol...so the fact 1/100th of 1% of vaccinated people in the USA poses a risk of reinfection that is unacceptable.


Given how briefly people have been vaccinated, I'm not sure we can completely shrug it off. Clearly, the risk of infection is lower, but it is not completely at zero as some were trumpeting recently based on an errant comment from a CDC doctor.


----------



## Eder

The comment was not errant...it was walked back for other reasons.


----------



## cainvest

Eder said:


> The comment was not errant...it was walked back for other reasons.


Ya, like it was flat out wrong.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> The comment was not errant...it was walked back for other reasons.


Evidence please. All the vaccine clinical trials show that it is possible to become infected following vaccination, albeit at a lower rate, disproving the trumpeted (errant) statement that vaccinated people "do not carry the virus".


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Evidence please. All the vaccine clinical trials show that it is possible to become infected following vaccination, albeit at a lower rate, disproving the trumpeted (errant) statement that vaccinated people "do not carry the virus".


When the CDC is spreading COVID19 disinformation, I think it's pretty clear that we shouldn't let any "expert" decide what information is correct or incorrect.

Even though I think most people are unable to understand the information, look at the hysteria over AZ vaccine and clotting, the other option is to censor everything that doesn't match the official position.
I don't trust that the official position is necessarily correct. As evidenced by the conflicting CDC statements.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I think it is a dream world that any nation will ever hit lasting herd immunity against covid-19. In other words, infected people will always be walking around in our country. With that in mind, we need to put into context the risk of a vaccinated person carrying a transmittable virus compared to the many other unvaccinated people carrying the same virus.

When I wrap my head around all that I figure the vaccinated really don't increase the pandemic risk by a significant factor to justify the efforts it takes and freedoms it restricts to contain that very low risk.

That said, until I am personally vaccinated I will probably still only meet with them from a 6 foot distance outside. But hey, at least they will be invited to my backyard. No one else will be...until I am vaccinated.


----------



## andrewf

OptsyEagle said:


> I think it is a dream world that any nation will ever hit lasting herd immunity against covid-19. In other words, infected people will always be walking around in our country. With that in mind, we need to put into context the risk of a vaccinated person carrying a transmittable virus compared to the many other unvaccinated people carrying the same virus.


I think the important thing is that getting vaccinated isn't "mask liberation day". The mask is to protect other people, who haven't had the opportunity to get vaccinated yet.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> I think it is a dream world that any nation will ever hit lasting herd immunity against covid-19. In other words, infected people will always be walking around in our country.


Wow, that's a pretty grim outlook OptsyEagle.

I see the world getting back to normal provided vaccines continue to be dispensed. It's only a matter of time now and covid will become a thing of the past IMO. But sure, I'll admit the possibility of people needing further vaccinations down the road but I'll say we have a very good chance of wiping this out for good.


----------



## andrewf

With vaccine hesitancy, I am less optimistic we'll eliminate COVID-19 entirely. But I do think we'll make it a minor nuisance with minimal disruption to day-to-day life.


----------



## MrMatt

I think it will likely mutate too quickly to ever be wiped out.
The antivaxxers aren't helping.


----------



## sags

Hopefully the public and governments have learned a lesson from this COVID that further research into vaccines and possible cures is a top tier priority. We need to do everything possible to eliminate the coronavirus threat just as we did with polio, smallpox, measles, and other diseases.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Wow, that's a pretty grim outlook OptsyEagle.
> 
> I see the world getting back to normal provided vaccines continue to be dispensed. It's only a matter of time now and covid will become a thing of the past IMO. But sure, I'll admit the possibility of people needing further vaccinations down the road but I'll say we have a very good chance of wiping this out for good.


I didn't say we would not get back to normal. I just said that the virus will be with us for a long time. If you are smart enough to get vaccinated it won't be much of a problem for you. If you are not, your problems will be coming almost entirely from unvaccinated people. Vaccinated people will make up a very small percentage of the continued covid problem.

Call that what you want. I am very exited about it. That is a night and day difference, for any vaccinated person, then it was a year ago. As for the unvaccinated. Well they obviously are not worried about it so I wish them the best of luck with that.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Hopefully the public and governments have learned a lesson from this COVID that further research into vaccines and possible cures is a top tier priority. We need to do everything possible to eliminate the coronavirus threat just as we did with polio, smallpox, measles, and other diseases.


No, we should give it the appropriate level of focus.
Right now we're in crisis and a lot of focus should be given, but really we have much bigger concerns than 1-3% of the population dying off due to a pandemic.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> I just said that the virus will be with us for a long time.


That's the part I'm not so sure about but you might be right as there are many factors at play. 
A couple of key ones in my mind ...

number of people who get vaccinated
how long the vaccinations continue to work
when many of the restrictions get lifted (travel and/or local)

Dropping our guard too soon could extend the period significantly.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> That's the part I'm not so sure about but you might be right as there are many factors at play.
> A couple of key ones in my mind ...
> 
> number of people who get vaccinated
> how long the vaccinations continue to work
> when many of the restrictions get lifted (travel and/or local)
> 
> Dropping our guard too soon could extend the period significantly.


I'm concerned that there will be too much vaccine hesistancy, earlier reports of 12% no shows or AZ cancellations doesn't bode well for overall uptake. 1 in 8 who scheduled vaccinations backed out, that is NOT comforting.

There is data suggesting that the vaccinations might only last a few months, and additionally we will possibly need at least variant boosters anyway.
This should be expected for a coronavirus.


----------



## Money172375

8 million more doses from Pfizer have been secured by the feds.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> I'm concerned that there will be too much vaccine hesistancy, earlier reports of 12% no shows or AZ cancellations doesn't bode well for overall uptake. 1 in 8 who scheduled vaccinations backed out, that is NOT comforting.
> 
> There is data suggesting that the vaccinations might only last a few months, and additionally we will possibly need at least variant boosters anyway.
> This should be expected for a coronavirus.


There is much guessing going on ... lets just see where we stand by June 1st.
The first thing I'm waiting to see is if the new cases and hospitalizations drop signficantly by then.


----------



## andrewf

Money172375 said:


> 8 million more doses from Pfizer have been secured by the feds.


I think the key question is when.... Canada already had contracts for 200M vaccine doses.


----------



## Money172375

andrewf said:


> I think the key question is when.... Canada already had contracts for 200M vaccine doses.


4M in May
-2M in June
-2M in July


----------



## Eder

Our Hero

'Vaccinations on their own are not enough to keep us safe,' he told MPs in the country's parliament.

'We know for example that the UK is ahead of just about everybody else on vaccination and yet they maintain very strong restrictions and are facing a very serious third wave.' 











Covid crisis: Justin Trudeau claims UK is facing a THIRD wave


Justin Trudeau referred to the UK's hugely successful drive, which has 60 per cent of the population given jabs compared to just 20 per cent in Canada, as he sought to justify keeping tough restrictions.




www.dailymail.co.uk





Conservative MP Peter Bone said Mr Trudeau seemed to be deploying a similar tactic to the EU. 'When they were in trouble on their poor performance of vaccination, they went on the attack trying to hit out at everyone and everything including the UK.

He added: 'It would sound to me, like with the EU, there's a lot of fake news in what he is saying. He should butt out of UK affairs and concentrate on running his own country, which he doesn't seem to be doing very well.'


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> I think the key question is when.... Canada already had contracts for 200M vaccine doses.


they can trumpet the 200M doses they've got contracts for, I only care about the pittance we have on hand.


----------



## MrMatt

Oh and dirtbags like this should be on the "kick out if needed" in the ICU.
They knew they were at high risk, yet didn't take reasonable precautions, free up those beds.










Ont. doctor admits 3 COVID-19 patients to ICU after they turned down vaccines


An Ontario doctor is urging people to get a COVID-19 vaccine once a jab becomes available to them after he admitted three patients who turned down shots to the ICU.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Eder

With Trudeau denying vaccines work to prevent Covid spread I'm sure there will be many on the fence that decide to forego a vaccine.


----------



## like_to_retire

FORD: We need more vaccines.

FORD: We need more vaccines.

FORD: We need more vaccines.

FORD: We need more vaccines.

FORD: We need more vaccines.

TRUDEAU: OK, I'll send in the Red Cross to administer vaccines.

FORD: Huh?


ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> FORD: We need more vaccines.
> 
> FORD: We need more vaccines.
> 
> FORD: We need more vaccines.
> 
> FORD: We need more vaccines.
> 
> FORD: We need more vaccines.
> 
> TRUDEAU: OK, I'll send in the Red Cross to administer vaccines.
> 
> FORD: Huh?
> 
> 
> ltr


It's politics, we had no problem vaccinating the entire province for the flu in 2 months, because we had the vaccine.
The only reason we're not done now is because we don't have the vaccine.

Trudeau is just trying to deflect from his inability to obtain vaccine, and paint it as a provincial problem, when it is a federal problem. To be fair out lack of vaccine isn't Trudeaus fault. Maybe he could have done slightly better, but not much. 

What he should be doing is pushing hard on his relationship with Harris to get vaccine up here, and on the benefits of safe travel between Canada and the US, and how that will help both countries.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> He added: 'It would sound to me, like with the EU, there's a lot of fake news in what he is saying. He should butt out of UK affairs and concentrate on running his own country, which he doesn't seem to be doing very well.'


Ah, a British Trumper. Just declare fake news and attack your opponents.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> It's politics, we had no problem vaccinating the entire province for the flu in 2 months, because we had the vaccine.
> The only reason we're not done now is because we don't have the vaccine.
> 
> Trudeau is just trying to deflect from his inability to obtain vaccine, and paint it as a provincial problem, when it is a federal problem. To be fair out lack of vaccine isn't Trudeaus fault. Maybe he could have done slightly better, but not much.
> 
> What he should be doing is pushing hard on his relationship with Harris to get vaccine up here, and on the benefits of safe travel between Canada and the US, and how that will help both countries.


Vaccines, while needed, aren't going to address the crisis we find ourselves in presently.

We're up against these folks:









Standoff includes police as Mississauga gym owner reopens despite COVID-19 emergency orders - Toronto | Globalnews.ca


"These gyms are about being healthy. Going to doctors and dying in hospitals, that's not healthy. Not pharmaceutical stuff, that's not healthy," a business partner said.




globalnews.ca


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Vaccines, while needed, aren't going to address the crisis we find ourselves in presently.
> 
> We're up against these folks:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Standoff includes police as Mississauga gym owner reopens despite COVID-19 emergency orders - Toronto | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> "These gyms are about being healthy. Going to doctors and dying in hospitals, that's not healthy. Not pharmaceutical stuff, that's not healthy," a business partner said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


And the people refusing to get vaccinated.

Really we need Trudeau to criminalize some of this behaviour, fines aren't enough.

The reason I say Trudeau is that the criminal code is the exclusive jurisdiction of the Federal government.

But all this boils down to the soft approach people have with lawbreakers in this country.
We let protests run all summer, now people are protesting the lockdowns.


----------



## cainvest

like_to_retire said:


> FORD: We need more vaccines.
> 
> FORD: We need more vaccines.
> 
> FORD: We need more vaccines.
> 
> FORD: We need more vaccines.
> 
> FORD: We need more vaccines.
> 
> TRUDEAU: OK, I'll send in the Red Cross to administer vaccines.
> 
> FORD: Huh?
> 
> 
> ltr


Meanwhile Ontario is sitting on a surplus of 1.2M doses.


----------



## fstamand

Apparently for Maxime Bernier, he doesn't need a vaccine because he's in good health.

Typical "me myself first" conservative mentality


----------



## like_to_retire

cainvest said:


> Meanwhile Ontario is sitting on a surplus of 1.2M doses.


Right, and they try and keep about 10 days supply (~120,000 vaccinated a day) as a buffer to ensure those who have booked get their shot without a cancellation. They just received those vaccines 2 days ago. Seriously, read the news.

ltr


----------



## Ukrainiandude




----------



## cainvest

like_to_retire said:


> Right, and they try and keep about 10 days supply (~120,000 vaccinated a day) as a buffer to ensure those who have booked get their shot without a cancellation. They just received those vaccines 2 days ago. Seriously, read the news.
> 
> ltr


Right so they didn't run out of vaccine and .....


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Right so they didn't run out of vaccine and .....


I think 10 days is a bit much, but it doesn't make sense to figure out the day before if you're running an injection clinic the next day.

At this point I think they should get a bit more aggressive and work it down to a a 2-3 day window.
Or just realize that we might run out and instead of jabbing needles, people might be making cancellation/rescheduling phone calls, which would turn into a logistical disaster really fast.

if they can get 100k more injections, that means in 2 weeks it might prevent a few dozen cases of covid. If we get 400k doses, it might mean a few hospital beds and maybe a life or two.


----------



## sags

Local media here had pictures of a long lineup at the second vaccination center.

If they have enough vaccine that all those people are lined up around the block........open up another vaccination center.


----------



## Eder

The Governor of Alaska announced that to encourage tourism, people will be able to receive a Covid-19 vaccination at the airport.
What a brilliant marketing strategy.


----------



## james4beach

Ontario people might want to phone their local pharmacies and ask if they have AZ vaccines available. Some apparently do... in which case you should haul *** to the local pharmacy and get the shot.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> Ontario people might want to phone their local pharmacies and ask if they have AZ vaccines available. Some apparently do... in which case you should haul *** to the local pharmacy and get the shot.


Only if you are 55-64 years of age. They cannot administer the vaccine to anyone outside that age range at this time.


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> Only if you are 55-64 years of age. They cannot administer the vaccine to anyone outside that age range at this time.


Isn't that the main age group range they are vaccinating right now?


----------



## andrewf

cainvest said:


> Isn't that the main age group range they are vaccinating right now?


I think they are mostly working on 65+ with Pfiezer and Moderna. However, the whole age qualification is a big muddle now with 50+ in some neighbourhoods, essential workers getting prioritized, etc. All I know is I'm not yet eligible.

Clearly, pharmacies have run out of people 55-64 to vaccinate with AZ, either due to hesitancy or just more supply than demand. Could be some in that age range are holding out for the 'better' vaccines.


----------



## Money172375

andrewf said:


> Only if you are 55-64 years of age. They cannot administer the vaccine to anyone outside that age range at this time.


I thought it was 55+


----------



## Money172375

cainvest said:


> Isn't that the main age group range they are vaccinating right now?


They’re going as low 18 in hot spot regions in Ontario


----------



## Eder

BC is vaccinating entire smaller communities like Sicamous, Beaverdell etc...everyone over 18...git her done!









Interior Health is vaccinating entire adult populations of dozens of small communities - BC News


Adult residents of dozens of small Interior communities are, or soon will be, eligible for a COVID-19 vaccine, regardless of their age.



www.castanet.net


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Only if you are 55-64 years of age. They cannot administer the vaccine to anyone outside that age range at this time.


Weird. You can't get it if you're 65 years old?


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> Weird. You can't get it if you're 65 years old?


It's because of concern for clotting among younger people and reduced effectiveness for older people. I think the restrictions will be eased, but in the mean time we might have vaccinations spoil sitting at pharmacies.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Amazing the number of selfish people that want to mess with our DNA without consideration of what it will do to future generations for a virus no more deadly then the flu.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Weird. You can't get it if you're 65 years old?


I believe you can. It’s permitted to 55+. It was originally restricted for older pops but that was changed.


----------



## james4beach

:) lonewolf said:


> Amazing the number of selfish people that want to mess with our DNA without consideration of what it will do to future generations for a virus no more deadly then the flu.


lonewolf, it doesn't change your DNA.

There are some drugs that modify a person's DNA, but these vaccines don't. The MRNA vaccines simply instruct cells to _construct_ new protein structures.

The body's cells read the MRNA -- for protein construction -- but the *MRNA never enters the cell's nucleus*. Your genetic material is protected inside the nucleus, and MRNA never merges with it.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> lonewolf, it doesn't change your DNA.


Totally forgot they existed. Thankful for the forum's ignore feature!


----------



## Money172375

Ontario opening up AZ to 40+ on Tuesday. Who’s in?


----------



## leoc2

Here is the link:








Province expected to open AstraZeneca to 40+


Read the full story and comment on Tbnewswatch.com




www.tbnewswatch.com


----------



## damian13ster

I am honestly confused why there isn't any pushback against postponing the 2nd dose up to 4 months.
Only medical studies done on the subject investigated delay up to 42 days. Moderna and Pfizer C-suites came out and said the effectiveness drops if there is a delay and they don't recommend waiting more than 28 days for 2nd dose.

Looks like government is literally putting lives of Canadians at risk just so they can start showing graphs as 'people who received vaccines' vs 'fully vaccinated' and try to hide the fact how they screwed up vaccine procurement.

They are literally going against the science, risking Canadian lives for nothing but political points. And media don't question it?


----------



## Eder

Not surprising...










How Trudeau bought the media


Through a long process of regulation, licensing, and cash handouts, Trudeau has managed to bring nearly the entire Canadian media under government supervision.




westernstandardonline.com


----------



## :) lonewolf

james4beach said:


> lonewolf, it doesn't change your DNA.
> 
> There are some drugs that modify a person's DNA, but these vaccines don't. The MRNA vaccines simply instruct cells to _construct_ new protein structures.
> 
> The body's cells read the MRNA -- for protein construction -- but the *MRNA never enters the cell's nucleus*. Your genetic material is protected inside the nucleus, and MRNA never merges with it.


James maybe you could post the clinical trial data regarding the vaccines ? Good luck with finding it. Tell us exactly what is in these vaccines ? Good luck with finding that out. The producers of the genetic cocktails have been granted immunity for anything that goes wrong with these genetic cocktails.

Those that are telling people to get the vaccines or those that make it mandatory for work or whatever. Without telling people the drugs have not even been tested on animals yet, plus other info will probably be facing charges of wrongful death or charged under the Nuremburg laws. Why would anyone in their right mind risk taking the genetic cocktails when you have not died of Covid yet ?


----------



## :) lonewolf

andrewf said:


> Totally forgot they existed. Thankful for the forum's ignore feature!


Just like face book, Twitter, LinkdIn, You Tube block the truth. Andrew block the independent thinkers that do not conform to the sheeple. Trust in the drug dealers & the poli TICKS do not do your own thinking is a very dangerous path. Good luck with that


----------



## MrMatt

We don't


Money172375 said:


> Ontario opening up AZ to 40+ on Tuesday. Who’s in?


I'm in the second it becomes available. Though Trudeau has been unable to deliver the vaccine we need.


----------



## kcowan

The CDC declared that Pfizer and Moderna second doses can be delayed 42 days. We got our second Pfizer at exactly 42 days. Tomorrow it will be 2 weeks after the second dose so we are officially protected. We still wear masks because only 60+'got the shots.

We attended an outdoor fund-raising dinner last night and I would say that the staff and entertainers were not properly protected. We were ok because the tables were distanced and with only 4 at tables for 8. PV has only 5 people in the hospitals with Covid. This is substantially down from the peak in March.

We will return to Canada when we will feel safe there and that is not now!


----------



## Eder

I would stay in Mexico...Canada seems not to recognize the effectiveness of vaccines yet.


----------



## Eder

North Dakota has agreed to start providing vaccines to commercial truckers from Manitoba who cross the border.


Manitoba Premier Brian Pallister says the program is the first of its kind between Canadian and U.S. jurisdictions, and he hopes to expand it to other essential workers who cross the border for work.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> North Dakota has agreed to start providing vaccines to commercial truckers from Manitoba who cross the border.
> 
> 
> Manitoba Premier Brian Pallister says the program is the first of its kind between Canadian and U.S. jurisdictions, and he hopes to expand it to other essential workers who cross the border for work.


The reality is that border areas understand the issues much more than far away leaders.
Also as the US vaccinations are open to everyone, because it's a public health issue. Just like we do with Flu.

It makes sense that anyone in the US, should get vaccinated. I'd suggest once we have all Canadians vaccinated, we open up to anyone else in the country


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> The reality is that border areas understand the issues much more than far away leaders.
> Also as the US vaccinations are open to everyone, because it's a public health issue. Just like we do with Flu.
> 
> It makes sense that anyone in the US, should get vaccinated. I'd suggest once we have all Canadians vaccinated, we open up to anyone else in the country


The vaccine itself is rather inexpensive, compared to what the pandemic has cost... globally there has been 10 trillion + in lost wealth, debt and output.


----------



## Eder

The USA is awash in vaccine even without AZ or the J&J shot. Might as well save some poor Canadian lives.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> The vaccine itself is rather inexpensive, compared to what the pandemic has cost... globally there has been 10 trillion + in lost wealth, debt and output.


And it's hard to value people's lives

1,000,000 dead Europeans
580,000 dead Americans
24,000 dead Canadians

Unimaginable loss.

And people thought 9/11 was bad? That big old scary 9/11 was just _two days_ of COVID deaths.


----------



## bgc_fan

I saw this article and started wondering about the countries that handled COVID well last year: Thailand gov't negotiating to buy Pfizer coronavirus vaccine - 660 NEWS 
I hadn't been tracking other countries, but Thailand is an interesting one. Last year, it had largely avoided COVID cases. But this year, cases started rising. Still far from Canada's situation, but on a upwards trajectory. Japan is similar.

OTOH Taiwan is still flat with really low numbers, Australia and New Zealand as well.


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> The USA is awash in vaccine even without AZ or the J&J shot. Might as well save some poor Canadian lives.


 ... can't believe I'm agreeing with Eder on this one but for humanity-sakes!


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> I saw this article and started wondering about the countries that handled COVID well last year: Thailand gov't negotiating to buy Pfizer coronavirus vaccine - 660 NEWS
> I hadn't been tracking other countries, but Thailand is an interesting one. Last year, it had largely avoided COVID cases. But this year, cases started rising. Still far from Canada's situation, but on a upwards trajectory. Japan is similar.
> 
> OTOH Taiwan is still flat with really low numbers, Australia and New Zealand as well.


That's because Taiwan and New Zealand implemented the travel restrictions that Dr Tam said didn't help. Her negligence on COVID19 is almost criminal. 
Emphasis on the almost, while her incompetence and negligence is well documented, I'm not sure that it's quite criminal, despite the tens of thousands of Canadian deaths.


----------



## james4beach

Media is reporting that pregnant women are having a very rough time with COVID.

I thought it was just a little flu? Newsflash: pregnant women aren't old people.

Just emphasizing again for anyone who doesn't get it yet ... COVID can hit young people _very_ hard. I'm in my 30s and just registered for vaccination. I also wear a medical grade mask everywhere now. I don't even bother with my cloth masks anymore. Like the Europeans advise, you've really got to go to N95 / KN95 / CAN95 at this point *in any indoor setting*.



> WINDSOR, ONT. -- Doctors are sounding the alarm after an alarming number of pregnant women have landed in the intensive care unit at Mount Sinai hospital in Toronto, suffering more severe effects of COVID-19.


----------



## andrewf

Pregnant women have weakened immune systems.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Media is reporting that pregnant women are having a very rough time with COVID.
> 
> I thought it was just a little flu? Newsflash: pregnant women aren't old people.
> 
> Just emphasizing again for anyone who doesn't get it yet ... COVID can hit young people _very_ hard. I'm in my 30s and just registered for vaccination. I also wear a medical grade mask everywhere now. I don't even bother with my cloth masks anymore. Like the Europeans advise, you've really got to go to N95 / KN95 / CAN95 at this point *in any indoor setting*.


Pregnant women have a host of medical issues.
Gestational diabetes is a very common complication for example.

FYI diabetes can have very wide ranging health impacts.


----------



## Money172375

My friend is pregnant and her doctor has advised not to get vaccinated.


----------



## Retired Peasant

james4beach said:


> I'm in my 30s and just registered for vaccination.


You know, all these years reading your posts, I never realized you were a millennial (not that it matters).


----------



## Eder

Money172375 said:


> My friend is pregnant and her doctor has advised not to get vaccinated.


My daughter is due in August...her doctor recommended getting any covid vaccine ASAP. She'll get the Pfizer next Tuesday. The doc mentioned her child will be born with the appropriate antibodies.


----------



## MrMatt

Interesting how different doctors are making different determinations.

Typically they recommend the flu shot for pregnant women.

All that data shows overwhelming benefits of a vaccine for COVID19. Unless there is an underlying condition (which there often are), I'd go wtih Eders doctors opinion.


----------



## Retired Peasant

Not sure that was called for MrMatt


----------



## MrMatt

Retired Peasant said:


> Not sure that was called for MrMatt


Yeah, pretty sure it wasn't, so I removed it.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Unless there is an underlying condition (which there often are), I'd go wtih Eders doctors opinion.


Obviously one would go with their own doctor's opinion and not someone elses that doesn't know anything about you.


----------



## :) lonewolf

james4beach said:


> And it's hard to value people's lives
> 
> 1,000,000 dead Europeans
> 580,000 dead Americans
> 24,000 dead Canadians
> 
> Unimaginable loss.
> 
> And people thought 9/11 was bad? That big old scary 9/11 was just _two days_ of COVID deaths.


 PVR tests 97% false positive. So for every100 people with COVID only 3 people have COVID. Plus other underlying health conditions can be cause of death not from COVID. Man dies of COVID after jumping from airplane forgetting parachute. 

I am so scared I am hiding under my bed. I learned this technique in school from teachers who had us hiding under desks incase Atom bombs went off. Now teachers teach kids how to use their minds by depriving their minds of oxygen by the wearing of masks

Complete child abuse by telling kids to wear their masks or they will kill their parents from the filthy disease they are filled with. No one is checking the kids to see if they are wearing under wear to protect others from farts. Wearing a mask to stop a virus makes about as much sense as wearing under wear to stop a fart.

Trust in government get your genetic cocktail


----------



## andrewf

^My regular reminder why I have lonewolf on ignore. If 97% of positive COVID tests are false positives, does that mean COVID is really 35% case fatality ratio (1% die, 2% survive, 97% never really had COVID--they just imagined their symptoms)? Or is everyone in hospital who is unable to breath unaided just hypochondriacs imagining their symptoms?

Apply a bit of common sense, or continue to listen to conspiracy theorists who fill your head with scientific-sounding nonsense.


----------



## james4beach

Retired Peasant said:


> You know, all these years reading your posts, I never realized you were a millennial (not that it matters).


Yeah, I'm technically a millennial but probably have more in common with Gen-X because I'm about as old a millennial as you can get.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Yeah, I'm technically a millennial but probably have more in common with Gen-X because I'm about as old a millennial as you can get.


 ... and with alot more common-sense (aka wiser) than some Gen-X, Z, etc. and even baby-boomers. [And I'm not buttering this up ... I'm saving the butter for my toasts.]


----------



## Retired Peasant

andrewf said:


> ^My regular reminder why I have lonewolf on ignore.


But do you? How did you see his post if he's on ignore?


----------



## andrewf

Retired Peasant said:


> But do you? How did you see his post if he's on ignore?


Occasionally when he is the most recent person to respond, I will see his post with the message suppressed. You can click it to see what was written. I don't see most of his posts at all.


----------



## Retired Peasant

I didn't realize it did that; interesting, thanks.


----------



## Money172375

Appointment tomorrow for AZ and wife on Monday.


----------



## Money172375

Vaccine Hunters Canada on Twitter is useful if you’re looking for a shot. We didn’t get ours from there, but they post often about what’s available and going on across the country.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... and with alot more common-sense (aka wiser) than some Gen-X, Z, etc. and even baby-boomers. [And I'm not buttering this up ... I'm saving the butter for my toasts.]


Thanks, that's nice of you to say. I think it's partly because I spend a lot of time hanging out with seniors. Young people would benefit from having more friends in the 70+ age group, IMO.


----------



## kcowan

andrewf said:


> Occasionally when he is the most recent person to respond, I will see his post with the message suppressed. You can click it to see what was written. I don't see most of his posts at all.


Yes I have no idea why it does that when the only new post is on ignore. Seems to be a bug?


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> Interesting how different doctors are making different determinations.
> 
> Typically they recommend the flu shot for pregnant women.
> 
> All that data shows overwhelming benefits of a vaccine for COVID19. Unless there is an underlying condition (which there often are), I'd go wtih Eders doctors opinion.


i definitely disagree with ignoring your doctors opinion especial when pregnant. TYPICALLY flu shot are recommended for pregnant women EXCEPT in the first trimester especially if they have had a miscarriage as a vacination triggers an immune response that could attack the fetus in the early stages. Less liikely later on. In fact, if you can get a vaccination in the third trimester at least one month before birth, then some of that immunity gets passed to the baby when born. 



Money172375 said:


> My friend is pregnant and her doctor has advised not to get vaccinated.


how far along is she. Has she had previous miscarriages? What are her other health conditions? Lots of factors. 



Eder said:


> My daughter is due in August...her doctor recommended getting any covid vaccine ASAP. She'll get the Pfizer next Tuesday. The doc mentioned her child will be born with the appropriate antibodies.


makes sense, as she is past the first trimester. It takes at least month for the antibodies to develop in the mother and to transfer to the baby, Ideally at least two months. I always timed my flue shot so I could get at least Two months before the baby was born. (I had dec babies and the vaccines for the flu were usually out end of oct so I made sure those years I got on the first day if possible to maximize the immunity transferred.


----------



## Eder

J&J back in action...of course Canada has none



https://twitter.com/i/events/1381929259438989318


----------



## cainvest

Eder said:


> J&J back in action...of course Canada has none
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/events/1381929259438989318


J&J comes in next week. That's ok, pfizer has really stepped up adding to their supply.

It's looking like all 50+ (maybe even 40+) will have a shot sometime in May.


----------



## Retired Peasant

kcowan said:


> Yes I have no idea why it does that when the only new post is on ignore. Seems to be a bug?


What I don't like about the ignore, is if ignored poster starts a new thread, then the whole thread is ignored. There are some threads that become of interest. I've abandoned the ignore, and instead just scroll quickly by when I see certain posters.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Something I don't understand here. From this official Government web site:COVID-19 vaccines for Ontario

Daily doses administered - 126,694

Total doses administered - 4,527,368

People fully vaccinated - 358,776

This doesn't make much sense to me. More than 4 million jabs, only 358 thousand have had a second dose?

The other thing is, if the vaccine is effective, even partially effective after one dose shouldn't covid cases be going down?


----------



## Eder

They are amongst older people...younger people are the main source of new infections.


----------



## sags

Our son is working in construction on a big project in north Toronto. They work long days and stay in a hotel all week.

None of the workers are vaccinated, and there is no opportunity for them. They have to work as they are deemed "essential workers".

We need to have mobile vaccination units traveling to construction work sites or their offices and vaccinating these workers who travel all over Ontario for work.

In our city, the pop up vaccinations at pharmacies are having long lineups and people are standing and waiting for hours to get a shot.

The organization of the vaccine campaign is terrible. Ford forces people to work but fails to provide vaccinations for them.

I suspect even if we had a flood of vaccines at the ready, the Province isn't set up well to vaccinate people.


----------



## kcowan

Retired Peasant said:


> What I don't like about the ignore, is if ignored poster starts a new thread, then the whole thread is ignored. There are some threads that become of interest. I've abandoned the ignore, and instead just scroll quickly by when I see certain posters.


I did not know that. So while their subject interest is bad perhaps their thread could morph into something interesting!


----------



## Numbersman61

An interesting letter from a physician


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Something I don't understand here. From this official Government web site:COVID-19 vaccines for Ontario
> 
> Daily doses administered - 126,694
> 
> Total doses administered - 4,527,368
> 
> People fully vaccinated - 358,776
> 
> This doesn't make much sense to me. More than 4 million jabs, only 358 thousand have had a second dose?
> 
> The other thing is, if the vaccine is effective, even partially effective after one dose shouldn't covid cases be going down?


There are two dynamics at play: the UK variant is far more infectious and now the dominant strain in Ontario. Other strains also picking up steam. Only 25% are vaccinated, not enough for herd immunity yet. The main way we can regulate transmission at this point remains distancing. Thankfully, the death rates is much reduced because most LTC residents are fully vaccinated. However, younger, healthier people are getting infected and clogging up ICUs because they don't die quickly unlike the elderly. A bit of a good news/bad news story. Also, the variants seems to hit younger people harder.


----------



## Eclectic12

Rusty O'Toole said:


> ... This doesn't make much sense to me. More than 4 million jabs, only 358 thousand have had a second dose?


Depends on when supply arrived versus when the decision that more people with a single dose was better than giving the second does.




Rusty O'Toole said:


> ...The other thing is, if the vaccine is effective, even partially effective after one dose shouldn't covid cases be going down?


I think you've have to check the LTC resident/staff rates for a better gauge of effectiveness.

With younger people reported to make up more of the cases and 30% receiving the first shot (never mind that it takes time after receiving a shot), it seems doubtful that drops in the general numbers would show up yet.

Cheers


----------



## Eder

Wow I saw this graph...thought I would post it to show how diseases often peak at this time of year in Ontario...looks like this year just the same stuff.


----------



## andrewf

Eder, notice the navy blue line, representing the 2020 flu. Got absolutely crushed by social distancing last March. What would COVID have looked like without the same?


----------



## Eder

I did notice evey line gets crushed by June distancing or no.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> I did notice evey line gets crushed by June distancing or no.


COVID 19 does not follow the same patterns as seasonal flu exactly. Some jurisdictions were seeing major waves in summer. I'm sure you could tell India not to worry about anything it will be over by June with your best Trump impression.

There are clearly environmental factors that influence spread. It is incorrect to say that it will just disappear on its own when the weather warms up.


----------



## cainvest

Yup, even the US had a rise in cases from Mid-June to Mid-July last year.


----------



## Eder

I thought I mentioned the graph was from Ontario done by the province of Ontario...not sure how India, Trump etc play into this other than worried perhaps Ontario's Covid troubles are on the decline and many don't like that?


----------



## cainvest

Maybe it will follow for Ontario again and given the current vaccine rollout, it just might.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> I thought I mentioned the graph was from Ontario done by the province of Ontario...not sure how India, Trump etc play into this other than worried perhaps Ontario's Covid troubles are on the decline and many don't like that?


It's on the decline (at least plateaued), which happened as a consequence of tightening distancing requirements and not wishful thinking about the calendar.


----------



## Eder

As much as restrictions help to flatten the curve most experts agree that Covid is affected by seasonality...as are all other viruses.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> As much as restrictions help to flatten the curve most experts agree that Covid is affected by seasonality...as are all other viruses.


Care to source that statement?

I've heard stuff like this








Like Flu, COVID-19 May Turn Out to Be Seasonal


Like influenza, could COVID-19 evolve to wax and wane with the seasons? New research suggests it might.




www.webmd.com





But really I'm not so sure, India has a spike now, and it's really hot (by Canadian standards), and we had a spike in January here in Ontario, which would be cold by most standards.

I think it is likely that COVID, like coronaviruses in general will circulate through the population, and it might end up being season. But I think the research suggesting it is as simple as being temperature dependant is not widely accepted.


----------



## andrewf

I don't doubt that there are environmental factors like low humidity making nasal membranes more susceptible to infection as well as behavioural factors like cold weather (or very hot weather) driving risky social gatherings indoors. But I don't think COVID-19 is driven by the exact same factors as seasonal flu, as evidenced by all the waves that peaked at different times than flus typically do. 

If distancing didn't work, it really doesn't make any sense that we had a wave peak in late Dec/Jan, then peak again in April.


----------



## sags

A recent poll showed that something like 46% of Republicans and 23% of Democrats don't plan on taking the vaccine.

Tonight on CNN, they discussed the level of herd immunity necessary to safely re-open and they are going to be well below that level.

They discussed ways of "encouraging" people to take the vaccine, but I doubt that will change enough minds.

It was commented that without herd immunity levels, the US economy and society simply won't be able to function normally.

The discussions seem to now lean towards some kind of "incentive" , perhaps like a mandatory vaccine passport idea if all else fails.

But then you run smack dab into organized religion's obsession with the "mark of the beast" teaching.

Paraphrasing it.........people shall neither buy nor sell without the mark of the beast, which is thought by many in religion to be one of the last signs of the coming end of the world.

If the US tries to deploy a mandatory vaccine, I think they will have a storm of social and civil disobedience like they have never imagined could happen.

Interesting times indeed.


----------



## Eder

No one would dispute distancing is the most important requirement to controlling spread of Covid until proper vaccinations are received...masks,washing hands etc run a distant 2nd.


----------



## :) lonewolf

sags said:


> If the US tries to deploy a mandatory vaccine, I think they will have a storm of social and civil disobedience like they have never imagined could happen.
> 
> Interesting times indeed.


 In the injection game the bullet is faster then the syringe


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> No one would dispute distancing is the most important requirement to controlling spread of Covid until proper vaccinations are received...masks,washing hands etc run a distant 2nd.


Nobody except Dr Tam


----------



## MrMatt

Provinces reported 231,540 new vaccinations administered over the past 24 hours on Sunday, for a total of 12,044,741 doses given since the start of the vaccination campaign in the winter.








Canada to get 1.9M vaccine doses this week, including first Johnson & Johnson shots


The federal government says it expects Canada to receive around 1.9 million doses of COVID-19 vaccine this week, including its very first shipment of single-dose shots from Johnson & Johnson.




www.ctvnews.ca





Looks like provinces are doing a pretty good job getting ramped up. At 1/4 million a day they'll be able to use that 1.9M doses in a week. Lets hope they can get more vaccine and we can get this running even faster.

Of all the problems to have, I'd rather it be on getting the vaccine than on delivery (injections) or vaccine hesitancy, as sourcing vaccine is arguably the "easiest" to solve.


----------



## zinfit

The big question is who gets the US surplus over the coming months. I have to think India will be first on that list.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> The big question is who gets the US surplus over the coming months. I have to think India will be first on that list.


 ... why? When India can manufacture the AZ themselves. In fact, withhold production of AZ vaccine for "India First" .


----------



## MrMatt

It's in the US interest to get North America moving. Restricting trade and travel with Canada is costing them billions.


----------



## Money172375

Here’s recent delivery expectations. No projections for AZ


----------



## Money172375

They’re down to 45 year olds in most hot spots in Ontario. and Down to 18 years old in other severe hot spots. I think they should soon (within 2-3 weeks) open it all up to every age. Those most at risk 50+ have had ample time to get a shot. open it up soon and let people get their second shot. The US is already seeing “second shot hesitancy”.


----------



## cainvest

Money172375 said:


> They’re down to 45 year olds in most hot spots in Ontario. and Down to 18 years old in other severe hot spots. I think they should soon (within 2-3 weeks) open it all up to every age. Those most at risk 50+ have had ample time to get a shot. open it up soon and let people get their second shot. The US is already seeing “second shot hesitancy”.


Does Ontario have a graph showing shots given by age group?


----------



## Money172375

cainvest said:


> Does Ontario have a graph showing shots given by age group?





https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/epi/covid-19-vaccine-uptake-ontario-epi-summary.pdf?la=en


----------



## Eder

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAHi3lX3oGM&t=1172s
*Peter McCullough, MD testifies to Texas Senate HHS Committee*

This guy is cool and has serious credentials....actual person that is treating Covid patients ...published countless documents etc...

Key points I picked up

His hospital only takes persons temperature to enter...no need for a Covid test
Asymptomatic patients do not or extremely rarely spread Covid
Treatments for at home Covid patients exist but are not promoted resulting in 80% more deaths than necessary
Recovered Covid patients have much greater resistance to covid than vaccines can provide
Not one doctor that has commented about Covid on tv has ever treated a covid patient
USA herd immunity was kicking in last winter before widespread vaccines began.
Mentions covid is the only disease ever that discouraged research doctors from promoting dissenting views


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Here’s recent delivery expectations. No projections for AZ


I think much of our AZ supply was from India, and they need it more than we do.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> Mentions covid is the only disease ever that discouraged research doctors from promoting dissenting views


All political research is like this.
Climate change is probably the best example.

COVID19 pandemic is both a political issue, as well as a serious public health issue.


----------



## andrewf

Money172375 said:


> They’re down to 45 year olds in most hot spots in Ontario. and Down to 18 years old in other severe hot spots. I think they should soon (within 2-3 weeks) open it all up to every age. Those most at risk 50+ have had ample time to get a shot. open it up soon and let people get their second shot. The US is already seeing “second shot hesitancy”.


I have been trying to book through the Peel portal and it is not working. I'm not eligible for pharmacy/AZ vaccination yet.


----------



## Money172375

andrewf said:


> I have been trying to book through the Peel portal and it is not working. I'm not eligible for pharmacy/AZ vaccination yet.


How old are you? What do you mean Not working? Are you in a designated hotspot? Or is all of Peel? Thanks


----------



## andrewf

Money172375 said:


> How old are you? What do you mean Not working? Are you in a designated hotspot? Or is all of Peel? Thanks


I'm in one of the hotspot 18+ postal codes, though I don't think my particular neighbourhood is all that 'hot'. The booking portal is throwing an error currently.


----------



## Money172375

andrewf said:


> I'm in one of the hotspot 18+ postal codes, though I don't think my particular neighbourhood is all that 'hot'. The booking portal is throwing an error currently.


My buddy booked in Peel yesterday….appointment on Thursday for Pzifer.


----------



## Money172375

andrewf said:


> I'm in one of the hotspot 18+ postal codes, though I don't think my particular neighbourhood is all that 'hot'. The booking portal is throwing an error currently.


Try a different browser or clear your cache


----------



## andrewf

Money172375 said:


> Try a different browser or clear your cache


Also failing for people I know. It's presently down. Tried on multiple devices, etc.


----------



## zinfit

cainvest said:


> Yup, even the US had a rise in cases from Mid-June to Mid-July last year.


Diffrent situation. In the Sunbelt states the temperatures can run into lengthy periods of 100 degrees plus. During these periods people are indoors and using AC. In a away it is similar to cold winter weather in Canada . It is without much debate that indoor gatherings are the highest risk and source for covid transmission.


----------



## andrewf

zinfit said:


> Diffrent situation. In the Sunbelt states the temperatures can run into lengthy periods of 100 degrees plus. During these periods people are indoors and using AC. In a away it is similar to cold winter weather in Canada . It is without much debate that indoor gatherings are the highest risk and source for covid transmission.


But those sunbelt states do not see flu season in the summer. Point being that COVID does not follow the same seasonality pattern as flu.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> It's in the US interest to get North America moving. Restricting trade and travel with Canada is costing them billions.


That works both ways. Anyone familiar with the auto industry knows things move back and forth many times before the vehicle is fully assembled. The forestry industry depends big time on the US market, the oil and gas exports from Alberta are very important. The mining companies s well. A company like Shopify has many more US customers then they have in Canada. McCains sells pile of frozen fries to fast-food outlets. A lot of agricultural products go south. In Alberta the US is a big customer for canola, finished pork and beef.


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> ... why? When India can manufacture the AZ themselves. In fact, withhold production of AZ vaccine for "India First" .


There production facilities aren't close to supplying a country with 1.2 billion people. Vaccinating that population with their heat, poverty and population is a gigantic task. I suspect a very large portion of the US surplus will go to India. Canada had zero role in funding and developing the vaccines so I don't know why it should get special treatment. We will see. I believe JNJ has dedicated a pile of their production for the poor countries.


----------



## zinfit

andrewf said:


> But those sunbelt states do not see flu season in the summer. Point being that COVID does not follow the same seasonality pattern as flu.


I am absolutely certain that by June Canada's covid numbers will have declined substantially. Vaccines will help. The major factor is Canadians are outdoor people in the summer. People here are already out on their patios and every second person is out golfing. When people are outside they get lots of vitamin D which is great for strengthening our immune system.


----------



## zinfit

Eder said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAHi3lX3oGM&t=1172s
> *Peter McCullough, MD testifies to Texas Senate HHS Committee*
> 
> This guy is cool and has serious credentials....actual person that is treating Covid patients ...published countless documents etc...
> 
> Key points I picked up
> 
> His hospital only takes persons temperature to enter...no need for a Covid test
> Asymptomatic patients do not or extremely rarely spread Covid
> Treatments for at home Covid patients exist but are not promoted resulting in 80% more deaths than necessary
> Recovered Covid patients have much greater resistance to covid than vaccines can provide
> Not one doctor that has commented about Covid on tv has ever treated a covid patient
> USA herd immunity was kicking in last winter before widespread vaccines began.
> Mentions covid is the only disease ever that discouraged research doctors from promoting dissenting views


 I like this guy. Another I pay attention to is Dr Scott Gotlieb [a frequent guest on CNBC squawk box].


----------



## OptsyEagle

Eder said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAHi3lX3oGM&t=1172s
> *Peter McCullough, MD testifies to Texas Senate HHS Committee*
> 
> This guy is cool and has serious credentials....actual person that is treating Covid patients ...published countless documents etc...
> 
> Key points I picked up
> 
> His hospital only takes persons temperature to enter...no need for a Covid test
> Asymptomatic patients do not or extremely rarely spread Covid
> Treatments for at home Covid patients exist but are not promoted resulting in 80% more deaths than necessary
> Recovered Covid patients have much greater resistance to covid than vaccines can provide
> Not one doctor that has commented about Covid on tv has ever treated a covid patient
> USA herd immunity was kicking in last winter before widespread vaccines began.
> Mentions covid is the only disease ever that discouraged research doctors from promoting dissenting views


Interesting video. I was always skeptical about how much spread actually happens with asymptomatic people. How infectious a person is will be proportional to how sick they were and get. For this same reason I have also been skeptical about how infectious vaccinated people can ever be. It's not that we can't find a few that can spread the virus to someone else, but comparatively when looking at symptomatic people and/or non-vaccinated people, the ability to spread virus by asymptomatic and vaccinated people, will be limited to an almost insignificant number of cases.

Like the doctor in the video, however, all I can go on is common sense from a basic understanding of how infections actually happen. I have no personal ability to prove it and it appears others do not find it important enough to find out.

Thanks for the video. His other points were well made also, especially his point about the immunity of previously infected people. I also agree that they are no longer a problem either and vaccinating them is probably a complete waste of vaccine. In the least it is an improper prioritization of who should be vaccinated first.


----------



## andrewf

zinfit said:


> I am absolutely certain that by June Canada's covid numbers will have declined substantially. Vaccines will help. The major factor is Canadians are outdoor people in the summer. People here are already out on their patios and every second person is out golfing. When people are outside they get lots of vitamin D which is great for strengthening our immune system.


Also, you know, strict lockdowns.


----------



## zinfit

andrewf said:


> Also, you know, strict lockdowns.


hard to get outside if we are under strict lockdowns . Getting outside and doing walking , biking and golf are good thinks and very low risk .


----------



## andrewf

zinfit said:


> hard to get outside if we are under strict lockdowns . Getting outside and doing walking , biking and golf are good thinks and very low risk .


The first two are all allowed, presently. I have been doing both.


----------



## Beaver101

And I hope Ford sticks with the decision to keep the golf courses closed ... for now instead of catering to the wimps as an exception.


----------



## Eder

Closing golf courses is nothing more than theatre. People need to be encouraged to get off their butts , get outside, get some exercise.

The CDC has finally determined that Covid infections are extremely rare outside.



https://news.yahoo.com/no-need-for-vaccinated-people-to-mask-up-outside-cdc-says-183029629.html



Dr. Linsey Marr of Virginia Tech, one of the nation’s leading aerosol scientists, told NPR ahead of Tuesday’s announcement. “It’s like putting a drop of dye into the ocean.” An Irish study found that outdoor transmission accounted for 0.1 percent of coronavirus cases in that country.


----------



## zinfit

Eder said:


> Closing golf courses is nothing more than theatre. People need to be encouraged to get off their butts , get outside, get some exercise.
> 
> The CDC has finally determined that Covid infections are extremely rare outside.
> 
> 
> 
> https://news.yahoo.com/no-need-for-vaccinated-people-to-mask-up-outside-cdc-says-183029629.html
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Linsey Marr of Virginia Tech, one of the nation’s leading aerosol scientists, told NPR ahead of Tuesday’s announcement. “It’s like putting a drop of dye into the ocean.” An Irish study found that outdoor transmission accounted for 0.1 percent of coronavirus cases in that country.


Great information. The control freaks on this site would be more at home in North Korea than a free and democratic society. Good lord are becoming nothing more than a bunch of blind sheep.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> Closing golf courses is nothing more than theatre. People need to be encouraged to get off their butts , get outside, get some exercise.
> 
> The CDC has finally determined that Covid infections are extremely rare outside.
> 
> 
> 
> https://news.yahoo.com/no-need-for-vaccinated-people-to-mask-up-outside-cdc-says-183029629.html
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Linsey Marr of Virginia Tech, one of the nation’s leading aerosol scientists, told NPR ahead of Tuesday’s announcement. “It’s like putting a drop of dye into the ocean.” An Irish study found that outdoor transmission accounted for 0.1 percent of coronavirus cases in that country.


I too think closing golf was not really warranted. Maybe just prohibit the sharing of carts (where you need to sit next to someone else). The CDC does still recommend mask wearing in crowded spaces outdoors.


----------



## andrewf

zinfit said:


> Great information. The control freaks on this site would be more at home in North Korea than a free and democratic society. Good lord are becoming nothing more than a bunch of blind sheep.












CDC says to continue mask wearing in crowded outdoor spaces. And it is only safe for vaccinated people, if there are unvaccinated people it is unsafe for them.


----------



## OptsyEagle

This virus is airborne. It becomes dangerous when given the chance to concentrate.

Does anyone have quick access to the study that correlated people's height with infection cases? No. Do you not think that if this virus was only transmitted via droplet particles, that fall quickly towards the earth, that shorter people would be getting infected at much higher rates then taller people. I mean a person, 6'5" would probably be immune to a virus that only transmitted that way. Sure, those tall people sit down, but I still think some doctor would have noticed that shorter people are being infected in greater numbers then taller people, by now. Since they are not, it is another observation that this virus is airborne.

Airborne viruses dissipate in larger spaces, like the outdoors, and they concentrate in confined, unventilated spaces like indoors. You don't need a mask outdoors. Just be a little careful. Don't hug anyone or get within a few feet of someone for longer then a minute or so and you will be fine.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> Great information. The control freaks on this site would be more at home in North Korea than a free and democratic society. Good lord are becoming nothing more than a bunch of blind sheep.


 ... at least those blind sheep you labelled has a human brain that works. 

As for Eder's comment about people needing to get off their butts to exercise, no stopping them from taking a break from this forum instead of whining incessantly 24/7 about not able to take a vacation or able to golf or influencing everyone else to flout the current pandemic rules/laws (in Canada). 

As for the "great" info from the link, here's the latest example of just how "great" the info is:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2021/04/28/hawaii-covid-tourist-death-child/

Guess that was a "great" vacation that the parents couldn't wait either.


----------



## Eder

This place is crowded. My friend flew in yesterday...rental car was $145/day.

Things are near back to normal although Hawaii never had a real Covid problem even though 150,000 travellers enter each week from NY & Florida etc with no quarantine many months before even the 1st vaccines began. Yesterdays positivity rate was just over 1%.

This is an example for Canada to follow. Only flights from USA,Canada, Japan are allowed to land, no India,Brazil or Europe.

Its too bad Trudeau did a face plant on procuring vaccines...now he is deflecting by punishing citizens that pose no Covid threat. Sadly it will probably work.


----------



## cainvest

Eder said:


> Its too bad Trudeau did a face plant on procuring vaccines...now he is deflecting by punishing citizens that pose no Covid threat. Sadly it will probably work.


Ya, I guess you think Trudeau should have sent in Beaver team 6 to take over a vaccine facility or maybe offered $1000 a dose just so you and a few other people could go on vacation (and return) during a pandemic.


----------



## Synergy

andrewf said:


> I too think closing golf was not really warranted. Maybe just prohibit the sharing of carts (where you need to sit next to someone else). The CDC does still recommend mask wearing in crowded spaces outdoors.


Golf is not a great idea IMO. I've seen groups from different households driving in the same car, some not wearing masks, etc. People from different communities meeting for golf, lunch, etc. We all know that a lot of people don't follow some of the rules very well. I don't see why people just can't go for a walk, bike ride, etc to get their fresh air and exercise. I get it from the business side of things, it really sucks. The virus is spread by people, the government is trying to minimize social interactions. There's so much pressure I wouldn't be surprised to see them open back up sooner than later.

I live in a small community that has a lot of golf courses and a lot of unhappy people. I'm happy to put the club's in the closet for another few months.


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> ... at least those blind sheep you labelled has a human brain that works.
> 
> As for Eder's comment about people needing to get off their butts to exercise, no stopping them from taking a break from this forum instead of whining incessantly 24/7 about not able to take a vacation or able to golf or influencing everyone else to flout the current pandemic rules/laws (in Canada).
> 
> As for the "great" info from the link, here's the latest example of just how "great" the info is:
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2021/04/28/hawaii-covid-tourist-death-child/
> 
> Guess that was a "great" vacation that the parents couldn't wait either.


What does that have to do with outside activities?


----------



## zinfit

cainvest said:


> Ya, I guess you think Trudeau should have sent in Beaver team 6 to take over a vaccine facility or maybe offered $1000 a dose just so you and a few other people could go on vacation (and return) during a pandemic.


Resentment because some people made the right decision for their own health. Eder and myself are far healthier and protected than the people who stayed a home hunkered down in their condos for the winter[ many of those are now deceased]. We don't need a donation for vaccinations we got the full two doses by February 2021 courtesy Uncle Sam. The current PM is now begging the US for vaccines so he can get people vaccinated at that level by the summer. Yes I guess I should have listened to Trudeau. Our vaccinations didn't' cost the Canadian government one penny. One of the reasons I went to my winter home is I could clearly see that the incompetent Trudeau was away too late in securing vaccines. It didn't take a genius to anticipate that. We have not jeopardized anyone by leaving the country and we were a lot more secure by doing so.


----------



## Eder

Beaver101 said:


> As for the "great" info from the link, here's the latest example of just how "great" the info is:
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2021/04/28/hawaii-covid-tourist-death-child/
> 
> Guess that was a "great" vacation that the parents couldn't wait either.


I guess you didn't add that the tragic death of the boy was due to Covid aggravated by morbidities. Both his parents were fully vaccinated and the kid, like in most of the world, doesn't need and didn't receive a Covid test. He picked up his case of Covid in his home state days before leaving for Hawaii. How is this outcome related to travel?


----------



## cainvest

zinfit said:


> Resentment because some people made the right decision for their own health. Eder and myself are far healthier and protected than the people who stayed a home hunkered down in their condos for the winter[ many of those are now deceased]. We don't need a donation for vaccinations we got the full two doses by February 2021 courtesy Uncle Sam. The current PM is now begging the US for vaccines so he can get people vaccinated at that level by the summer. Yes I guess I should have listened to Trudeau. Our vaccinations didn't' cost the Canadian government one penny. One of the reasons I went to my winter home is I could clearly see that the incompetent Trudeau was away too late in securing vaccines. It didn't take a genius to anticipate that. We have not jeopardized anyone by leaving the country and we were a lot more secure by doing so.


Really, good for you getting vaccinated early!

But to compare the political, buying and vaccine creation power of our small population vs the entire US is just plain silly IMO. Maybe we could have all spent a ton of tax dollars for operation "impulse power" to get us more vaccine quickly ... that likely wouldn't have made people happy either.


----------



## zinfit

cainvest said:


> Really, good for you getting vaccinated early!
> 
> But to compare the political, buying and vaccine creation power of our small population vs the entire US is just plain silly IMO. Maybe we could have all spent a ton of tax dollars for operation "impulse power" to get us more vaccine quickly ... that likely wouldn't have made people happy either.


 You surrender your control for your own wellbeing to the state and Trudeau. I make my own choices when it comes to my health. Each to our own. I have zero regrets about the decision I made. I understand my socialist control types get upset when they see people exercising their personal freedom and our quick to pass personal judgements. My decision had zero negative impact on any Canadian. By returning home fully vaccinated I am part of the solution not part of the problem and there are no shortage of covid problems in Canada.


----------



## cainvest

zinfit said:


> You surrender your control for your own wellbeing to the state and Trudeau. I make my own choices when it comes to my health. Each to our own. I have zero regrets about the decision I made. I understand my socialist control types get upset when they see people exercising their personal freedom and our quick to pass personal judgements. My decision had zero negative impact on any Canadian. By returning home fully vaccinated I am part of the solution not part of the problem and there are no shortage of covid problems in Canada.


Wow, not sure what sparked that rant but .... ya, carry on I guess.


----------



## zinfit

cainvest said:


> Wow, not sure what sparked that rant but .... ya, carry on I guess.


Not a rant just relaying my own perspective. Stating a conservative point of view today can easily be classified as a rant or some other negative description.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Was out for a walk with a friend & their Tenant from India. The Tenant from India said her mother who lived in India had to see her doctor. Her doctor told her not to come in to see him to avoid the vaccine. The doctor said they would come to the house so she would not get vaccinated. According to the tenant the people in India do not want the vaccine as they do not trust the genetic cocktail. She also said in the area where the farmers are demonstrating there is not a problem with Covid & the media can not be trusted.

Trust in Gates & his monopoly on world health. The money drug dealers are making with the vaccines is a great incentive to make viruses to produce more vaccines.


----------



## andrewf

zinfit said:


> You surrender your control for your own wellbeing to the state and Trudeau. I make my own choices when it comes to my health. Each to our own. I have zero regrets about the decision I made. I understand my socialist control types get upset when they see people exercising their personal freedom and our quick to pass personal judgements. My decision had zero negative impact on any Canadian. By returning home fully vaccinated I am part of the solution not part of the problem and there are no shortage of covid problems in Canada.


I think you annoy people when you demand that you be given exceptions. You left the country whilst advised not to travel. Welcome to the consequences.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> Ya, I guess you think Trudeau should have sent in Beaver team 6 to take over a vaccine facility or maybe offered $1000 a dose just so you and a few other people could go on vacation (and return) during a pandemic.


lol. I'd love to see a movie about Beaver Team 6

Here's the closest I could find:


----------



## Eder

andrewf said:


> I think you annoy people when you demand that you be given exceptions. You left the country whilst advised not to travel. Welcome to the consequences.


I think what annoys is the reluctance for our government to act as though vaccines work. Not to do so will result in too many people not bothering to get a vaccine.

Oh ... and here's Beaver Team 6

*Leave It to Beaver Season 3 Episode 39 



*


----------



## andrewf

Vaccinated people can still become infected. It only reduces the risk to 10% of non-vaccinated. The risk of severe symptoms is reduced by more. But the travel quarantines aren't about severity of symptoms from the travelers, it's about them spreading infection that they may have acquired through travel to their networks. None of that is denying that vaccines work. And the whole lowering your risk of infection significantly and nearly eliminating your risk of severe illness is all the incentive a person should need to get vaccinated. There is no need to roll out the red carpet for travelers who decide to disregard government advice not to travel. Making it easy to travel is contradicting government advice.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> What does that have to do with outside activities?


 ... nothing except golf courses should remain closed. If it was up to me, closed for the duration of the pandemic. 

Synergy gave an excellent example with a bonus "explanation" for those whinies with super-deflective eye-visors on this forum aka looking similar to this guy .


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> You surrender your control for your own wellbeing to the state and Trudeau. I make my own choices when it comes to my health. Each to our own. I have zero regrets about the decision I made.* I understand my socialist control types get upset when they see people exercising their personal freedom and our quick to pass personal judgements.* My decision had zero negative impact on any Canadian. By returning home fully vaccinated I am part of the solution not part of the problem and there are no shortage of covid problems in Canada.


 ... my, my, my, look who is talking about who.

Since you're fully vaccinated, then there's no need to return to Canada, the land of the *un-vaccinated ones.* 

So just how are you part of the "solution", only to be returning to help yourself to its health care systems (which sucks anyways from your POV)?


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> I guess you didn't add that the tragic death of the boy was due to Covid aggravated by morbidities. Both his parents were fully vaccinated and the kid, like in most of the world, doesn't need and didn't receive a Covid test. *He picked up his case of Covid in his home state days before leaving for Hawaii*. How is this outcome related to travel?


 ... then why travel when the kid got Covid? Loving parents I guess.


----------



## sags

We don't even know if the vaccines work against the variants.

People should chill out and "exercise" some patience. There is no need to plunge forward into the dark.

My wife was fully vaccinated as soon as the vaccine came out. I have had my first shot of Pfizer.

Even though vaccinated we continue to exercise caution.....wear masks and shields (my wife when shopping) and avoid contact with family.

It isn't easy but it is necessary. This pandemic isn't over yet and claiming victory now is premature.


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> ... my, my, my, look who is talking about who.
> 
> Since you're fully vaccinated, then there's no need to return to Canada, the land of the *un-vaccinated ones.*
> 
> So just how are you part of the "solution", only to be returning to help yourself to its health care systems (which sucks anyways from your POV)?


There you go making judgements . Just for information I have been filing tax return in Canada for 60 years and have never committed any crime or offence. In terms of my quote it was in reference to being fully vaccinated . I was fully vaccinated. Even Trudeau acknowledges that having a very large number of Canadians vaccinated is the solution. Liberals believe in free speech provided the other persons opinion is consistent with their newspeak.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> We don't even know if the vaccines work against the variants.


We know they're very effective against some, and barely effective against others.
That's why we (the world) have to plan for boosters, and we also have to get India and Brazil under control


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> There you go making judgements .


 ... no, you first started it. Just go back and re-read your posts (and no need to go that far back), start with recent #1799, then #1787.



> Just for information I have been filing tax return in Canada for 60 years and have never committed any crime or offence.


 ... never said you committed any crime or care if you filed tax return for the past 60 years. That's your own declaration.



> In terms of my quote it was in reference to being fully vaccinated . I was fully vaccinated. Even Trudeau acknowledges that having a very large number of Canadians vaccinated is the solution.


 ... that is a given if anyone wants to stay alive.

But you were (and still) "complaining" about the "quarantine", being imposed on those who wants to return to this country. Particularly as a snowbird. First of all, how inconvenient! Secondly, how costly! Thirdly, it's infringing your rights to come and go as you please as a Canadian citizen ... yep, at every other Canadian citizen's expense or what is considered your version of "no negative impact."



> Liberals believe in free speech provided the other persons opinion is consistent with their newspeak.


 ... yeah no doubt as I guess that's why you get to whine here. And get to call other members socialist control freaks and blind sheep too. No personal judgements, only wide-open insults on other forum members.


----------



## Eder

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-north-dakota-vaccination-teachers-1.6007257



Well...silly rules are meant to be broken.

Maybe the program can be expanded to allow all Canadians to complete their vaccines...just get the USA to send us a bill...put it on the tab.


----------



## andrewf

What new COVID vaccine modelling says about when Canada might lift restrictions


Vaxx Populi: We need 75 per cent of adults to have a first dose and 20 to have a second. How soon might we get there?




www.macleans.ca





Expectation that we should have 75% of adults with at least 1 vaccination by June 4 (5 weeks or so) and 75%first/20% fully by July. Tam indicates that this should be getting close to threshold for herd immunity and being able to start relaxing restrictions.

Thankfully, polling indicates we won't have the same kind of vaccine hesitancy as in the US. 71% already have or want to urgently get vaccinated, and a further 12% are willing to be vaccinated but not in a rush.


----------



## Eder

__





Statement: Pfizer position on dosing intervals of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine


We recognize that recommendations on alternative dosing intervals reside with health authorities and may include recommendations due to public health principles. However, as a biopharmaceutical company working in a highly regulated industry, our position is supported by the label and indication...




www.pfizer.ca


----------



## cainvest

Eder said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-north-dakota-vaccination-teachers-1.6007257
> 
> 
> 
> Well...silly rules are meant to be broken.
> 
> Maybe the program can be expanded to allow all Canadians to complete their vaccines...just get the USA to send us a bill...put it on the tab.


Woot ... MB stikes again!


----------



## Eder

Its spreading!









U.S. border town offering its leftover COVID-19 vaccines to people in B.C. - Penticton Western News


A Point Roberts fire chief is asking state officials to grant an exemption to Canadians going south for in-car inoculations




www.pentictonwesternnews.com


----------



## zinfit

cainvest said:


> Woot ... MB stikes again!


Trudeau might have to make some changes to his quarantine rules.


----------



## james4beach

Massive amounts of vaccine are going to be delivered in May & June. The government is expecting 48 to 50 million shots to be delivered by July 1.

Things are looking good. And I don't sense much hesitancy out there either.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> Massive amounts of vaccine are going to be delivered in May & June. The government is expecting 48 to 50 million shots to be delivered by July 1.
> 
> Things are looking good. And I don't sense much hesitancy out there either.


Polling indicates 85% of Canadian adults already have, urgently want to, or are willing but not in a rush to get vaccinated. Thankfully, Canada avoided making the choice to get vaccinated political.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Massive amounts of vaccine are going to be delivered in May & June. The government is expecting 48 to 50 million shots to be delivered by July 1.
> 
> Things are looking good. And I don't sense much hesitancy out there either.


According to our most recent council meeting, only 65% of our population over 80 has received their first shot. Small town, very rural….no deaths so far and less than 100 cases since the start. But, we are 20 mins from a hotspot and 90 mins from Toronto.


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> Massive amounts of vaccine are going to be delivered in May & June. The government is expecting 48 to 50 million shots to be delivered by July 1.
> 
> Things are looking good. And I don't sense much hesitancy out there either.


This is good news. I wonder about the 48-50 million doses. I figure between 30 million of Pfizer and Moderna. I know that JNJ will start sending vaccines but I haven't seen any established number. I suppose we can get more Aztrezenca again Ihaven't seen any firm numbers on that one. I suspect the the reason for the big increase is supply is now exceeding demand in the USA. Anyways no matter how you slice it vaccines are a good thing.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Massive amounts of vaccine are going to be delivered in May & June. The government is expecting 48 to 50 million shots to be delivered by July 1.
> 
> Things are looking good. And I don't sense much hesitancy out there either.


Yup, supply is looking pretty good. Everyone I talk to (that is eligible) has either got the shot or is scheduled for it.


----------



## zinfit

Capitalism has been kicked around pretty good over years. May-be we should all pause and thank capitalism for the miracle vaccines that have been developed by Pfizer and Moderna and to a lesser extent JNJ and Astrezenca. For people 35 and younger is isn't hard to find hard line socialists with a contempt for capitalism. That is a sad reality. In the midst of a great crisis capitalism has proven how important and vital it is.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Everything the government has done has just made matters worse i.e., lock downs & wearing of masks etc. Amazing how many trust the drug dealers that have been granted immunity with their so called vaccines that are really genetic cocktails.. Why would anyone expect the trend to change & think the so called vaccines long term side effects will not reduce the population with Genocide? The vaccines are a perfect way to reduce the worlds population & control which people get certain genetic cocktails.

Can not trust the Covid tests, Die of a heart attack Covid it is put down as cause of death, media is censoring anything that goes against the UN agenda. With the government & drug dealers track record why would anyone trust them ? Can not make this stuff up. Scare people & they become as dumb as the dumbest person in the herd.


----------



## Eder

wrong thread


----------



## Money172375

Canada pausing J and J. 









Health Canada holding J&J COVID-19 vaccines over possible quality control issue


Health Canada says it is holding the 300,000 Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine doses that arrived in the country on Wednesday due to a possible quality control issue.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## milhouse

Called it. 

Some Pfizer vaccines to start being supplied from their Kalamazoo plant starting next week.



milhouse said:


> Watched a news segment which discussed the possibility that supply could outstrip demand in the States by April.
> Pure speculation on my part but I would guess/hope that some extra supply could start getting redirected to Canada by May (??).





milhouse said:


> lol, I don't think it's about "liking Trudeau". It's known that the feds have a contract with Pfizer and Moderna but with quarterly timelines and being supplied out of Europe.
> It may take some combo of (political) influence and cash but if Pfizer and Moderna are meeting their commitments to the States, I can see some of the delivery timelines moved up with surplus production from the States.


----------



## andrewf

In other words, the US was hoarding vaccine production.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> In other words, the US was hoarding vaccine production.


Right. The Americans screwed us.

Hoarded the top shelf MRNA products, while "generously" releasing the questionable AstraZeneca doses, which they didn't even approve for domestic use.


----------



## milhouse

Realistically, apart from a bit of the vaccine diplomacy going on, countries are looking after their own citizens first. Make no mistake that I'm happy that it looks like I'll be able to book a vaccine appointment within the next couple of weeks. But the optics from a global perspective likely aren't great that Canada has pre-ordered the most vaccines per per capita and seems to be vaccine hoarding. Though I'm pretty sure the vaccines will eventually be released to other countries after supply in Canada outstrips demand too or get close to this mythical herd immunity level.


----------



## zinfit

andrewf said:


> In other words, the US was hoarding vaccine production.


With this attitude the Americans sould send it somewhere else. Let's be clear Astrezenca hasn't been approved by the FDA . Should they dump a substandard product on others? With Trudeau begging they gave in. Until recently the US wasn't producing enough Pfizer or Moderna to meet their own demand. That has recently changed and they are now giving us a large chunk of the surplus. Liberal are ungrateful lot.


----------



## andrewf

zinfit said:


> With this attitude the Americans sould send it somewhere else. Let's be clear Astrezenca hasn't been approved by the FDA . Should they dump a substandard product on others? With Trudeau begging they gave in. Until recently the US wasn't producing enough Pfizer or Moderna to meet their own demand. That has recently changed and they are now giving us a large chunk of the surplus. Liberal are ungrateful lot.


We have contracts. They prohibited private companies from fulfilling their obligations to other countries. Canada can only thank the EU for living up to its obligations, as that is where most of our doses came from. The USA stiffed the rest of the world.


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> The USA stiffed the rest of the world.


Maybe, but I don't blame them. They had the money, power and abilities and like it or not we still live in a world with borders so I can understand them serving themselves first.


----------



## zinfit

andrewf said:


> We have contracts. They prohibited private companies from fulfilling their obligations to other countries. Canada can only thank the EU for living up to its obligations, as that is where most of our doses came from. The USA stiffed the rest of the world.


Contracts with no delivery dates and being the last country on the train. It is sad how Liberals misrepresent reality.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> Contracts with no delivery dates and being the last country on the train. It is sad how Liberals misrepresent reality.


Last country on the train? Canada went out of its way to get a huge number of doses.

I looked at the Bloomberg vaccine tracker tonight to see where we stand. There are about 140 countries in this list, and I'm showing what fits in the screen shot. Despite the suppliers not delivering on their promises, Canada has been able to deliver a huge # of total shots.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Ontario hit 40% of their population vaccinated with 1 dose, last week. I imagine the province's vaccination program benefited from having more hot spots, then other provinces. Nothing like a big fire to motivate people to do something to protect themselves.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Maybe, but I don't blame them. They had the money, power and abilities and like it or not we still live in a world with borders so I can understand them serving themselves first.


Sure the US is being a bit selfish, but not everyone is as dumb as Canada shipping out their stockpiles right before the pandemic hits.


----------



## kcowan

MrMatt said:


> Sure the US is being a bit selfish, but not everyone is as dumb as Canada shipping out their stockpiles right before the pandemic hits.


And relying on China for their first vaccines. Funny how the Liberals conveniently overlook this fact. Trudeau and China: bad judgement in action


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> Last country on the train? Canada went out of its way to get a huge number of doses.
> 
> I looked at the Bloomberg vaccine tracker tonight to see where we stand. There are about 140 countries in this list, and I'm showing what fits in the screen shot. Despite the suppliers not delivering on their promises, Canada has been able to deliver a huge # of total shots.
> 
> [ATTACH no





MrMatt said:


> Sure the US is being a bit selfish, but not everyone is as dumb as Canada shipping out their stockpiles right before the pandemic hits.





MrMatt said:


> Sure the US is being a bit selfish, but not everyone is as dumb as Canada shipping out their stockpiles right before the pandemic hits.


The Americans early on invested in a massive way to develop vaccines and to assist in developing of vaccines and the production capacity. The price tag was 10 billion . Moderna , Astrazenca and J2J participated in the program. Pfizer chose not to but did take a 2 billion front end payment for the US securing first doses. Participation required the firs to give the US vaccination program priority on access to supplies. In addition US legislation allows the US to prevent the export of the vaccines from US facilities. Both Presidents issues executive orders under that legislation. . The US made these arrangements well before Trudeau started his wild scramble to secure vaccines. Given the US investment in the development of the vaccines t was only reasonable they would direct production to their own people. By the way Trudeau has done a lot of spending . Other than a foolish investment with the Chinese can any of our loyal Liberals show were Canada spent even one dollar on the development of the Astezenca, JNJ,Moderna and Pfizer vaccines? In the real world you get what you pay for.


----------



## sags

From what I have read in the media the US "investment" purchased "doses" in advance.

Canada did the same but spread the money around to different vaccine makers.

Of course the US spent much more on doses as it has 10 times the population to vaccinate.

The companies weren't allowed to ship vaccines anywhere outside the US after Trump issued an executive order. Biden didn't rescind the order.

Trump is trying to promote the false narrative that he was responsible for development of the vaccines, but they existed before Trump was President.

The speed of the delivery of the vaccines is due to previous research and development.

There was nothing Trudeau or anyone else could have done to force the vaccine makers to deliver to Canada.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> The Americans early on invested in a massive way to develop vaccines and to assist in developing of vaccines and the production capacity. The price tag was 10 billion . Moderna , Astrazenca and J2J participated in the program. Pfizer chose not to but did take a 2 billion front end payment for the US securing first doses. Participation required the firs to give the US vaccination program priority on access to supplies. In addition US legislation allows the US to prevent the export of the vaccines from US facilities. Both Presidents issues executive orders under that legislation. . The US made these arrangements well before Trudeau started his wild scramble to secure vaccines. Given the US investment in the development of the vaccines t was only reasonable they would direct production to their own people. By the way Trudeau has done a lot of spending . Other than a foolish investment with the Chinese can any of our loyal Liberals show were Canada spent even one dollar on the development of the Astezenca, JNJ,Moderna and Pfizer vaccines? In the real world you get what you pay for.


Trudeau wasn't quite as behind the wheel as detractors claim.
He was actually taking some action reasonably early (see article.
However, he consistently made bad decisions that simply didn't work out.









Canada to spend $192M on developing COVID-19 vaccine | Globalnews.ca


Trudeau said being prepared to mass-produce a vaccine, no matter who creates it, will be essential for suppressing COVID-19 in Canada.




globalnews.ca





I think this is because, while a political genious, he's actually an idiot, blinded by bias, and unable to consider other options.
Canada should have strongly partnered with the US to get into their vaccine supply, pay for 10% of the initial research and funding for 10% of the initial doses. But that would have been expensive, and seen as supporting Trump. Which is politically unpalatable.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> From what I have read in the media the US "investment" purchased "doses" in advance.
> 
> Canada did the same but spread the money around to different vaccine makers.
> 
> Of course the US spent much more on doses as it has 10 times the population to vaccinate.
> 
> The companies weren't allowed to ship vaccines anywhere outside the US after Trump issued an executive order. Biden didn't rescind the order.
> 
> Trump is trying to promote the false narrative that he was responsible for development of the vaccines, but they existed before Trump was President.


Not a single COVID19 vaccine existed before Trump was president.
SARS research globally was effectively dropped once it died out.

Honestly the President has very little to do with any of it, why do you think Biden chose an "ambitious goal", that was relatively easy to achieve?



> There was nothing Trudeau or anyone else could have done to force the vaccine makers to deliver to Canada.


Yes there was, he could have buddied up to Trump, and made a deal.
That's what you do when you're a leader responsible for millions of lives, you put aside personal feelings and make the right choice for your people.


----------



## sags

Trumps executive order also blocked PPE shipments literally at the US/Canada border (masks, gowns, gloves).

With the assistance of the Chinese, Trudeau rented a warehouse in China and loaded it with PPE. He then sent aircraft to bring the badly needed supplies to Canada. The PPE supplies arrived at a time when Canada was in desperate need of it.

Canadians follow the news and know what happened, which is why the false narratives by the Conservatives are a losing strategy.


----------



## sags

Totally false. The vaccines were already well under development. Moderna was created by purchasing the rights to their MNRA vaccine.

The vaccine companies have been public in denying Trump's claims to have developed and owning the vaccines.

Moderna developed their vaccine in 2 days. They had already done much research on MNRA technology.......long before Trump came along.









Moderna's groundbreaking coronavirus vaccine was designed in just 2 days


The biotech company designed its vaccine, which is highly effective, over two days in January — before many people had heard of the coronavirus.




www.businessinsider.com


----------



## sags

You think Trudeau could have "buddied" up with Trump and secured vaccines ? Trump......who blocked PPE at the border is going to hand vaccines to Canadians ?

The solution to everything from oil pipelines to vaccines is to "talk" to the US and explain why they should do what we want them to do.

It reminds me of when Stephen Harper took that route and single-handedly killed the Keystone oil pipeline when he went to the US politicians and called in a "no brainer".

As a result of that political interference and the embarrassment it caused for him, President Obama cancelled the permit. 

The Conservatives don't seem to understand that political realities that exist in the world.


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> From what I have read in the media the US "investment" purchased "doses" in advance.
> 
> Canada did the same but spread the money around to different vaccine makers.
> 
> Of course the US spent much more on doses as it has 10 times the population to vaccinate.
> 
> The companies weren't allowed to ship vaccines anywhere outside the US after Trump issued an executive order. Biden didn't rescind the order.
> 
> Trump is trying to promote the false narrative that he was responsible for development of the vaccines, but they existed before Trump was President.
> 
> The speed of the delivery of the vaccines is due to previous research and development.
> 
> There was nothing Trudeau or anyone else could have done to force the vaccine makers to deliver to Canada.


spin it however you want Trudeau didn't help finance the development of vaccines by Astrezenca, JNJ, Moderna ad Pfizer. Not one single penny. The Israeli's secured front of line status because they paid a premium price and would allow Pfizer through their health system track every vaccination and compile real time data on its safety and effectiveness. To something like this was well beyond Trudeau's capabilities.


sags said:


> You think Trudeau could have "buddied" up with Trump and secured vaccines ? Trump......who blocked PPE at the border is going to hand vaccines to Canadians ?
> 
> The solution to everything from oil pipelines to vaccines is to "talk" to the US and explain why they should do what we want them to do.
> 
> It reminds me of when Stephen Harper took that route and single-handedly killed the Keystone oil pipeline when he went to the US politicians and called in a "no brainer".
> 
> As a result of that political interference and the embarrassment it caused for him, President Obama cancelled the permit.
> 
> The Conservatives don't seem to understand that political realities that exist in the world.


I have the greatest of difficulty finding any crediability in your comments. You sound like a Liberal talking head with your speaking notes in hand.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> You think Trudeau could have "buddied" up with Trump and secured vaccines ? Trump......who blocked PPE at the border is going to hand vaccines to Canadians ?


Yes, I think Trudeau could have tried harder.

The PPE was only theoretically blocked for a very short period of time, Trump backed down on this almost immediately.



> The solution to everything from oil pipelines to vaccines is to "talk" to the US and explain why they should do what we want them to do.


That's called diplomacy.



> The Conservatives don't seem to understand that political realities that exist in the world.


And yet you think talking and explaining the benefits of what we want is somehow silly.

It's really simple, positive relationships help, it can be friendly, or simply respectful.
But yes, you explain why your idea is good and in their self interest. 

What do you propose?
Face it, Canada only has a relatively small population and economy.
Our population is half the 6th smallest G7 country, and our GDP is smaller.

The reason we have outsize importance globally is our reputation and ability to build relationships. That's it, talking is our superppower.


----------



## Eder

I guess they should have located their head office in Quebec and not Alberta...

_*Sorenson said he believes the government picked winners and losers based on where a company was based, saying his Alberta roots may be to blame for the less-than-enthusiastic response from a government that doesn't hold a single seat in that province.*_
* 
"People have said to me so many times and I refused to acknowledge it, but the truth is, if Providence was located in Quebec we wouldn't be having this conversation," Sorenson said.
*
_*"Canada's broken. The federal government doesn't see past Ontario heading west."*_




https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/providence-therapeutics-pulling-out-canada-1.6009068


----------



## andrewf

That's maybe a bigger symptom of our electoral system. With something like STV, Liberals would have seats in Alberta and CPC would have seats in Toronto.


----------



## Eder

Seems we are all so amazed at the speed of development of Covid vaccines but I read this anecdote on the Hong Kong flu pandemic today

*It has become commonplace to describe the speed with which vaccines were devised for Covid-19 as unprecedented. But it was not. *The first New York Times report of the outbreak in Hong Kong—three paragraphs on page 3—was on April 17, 1957. By July 26, little more than three months later, doctors at Fort Ord, Calif., began to inoculate recruits to the military.

and this

“For those who grew up in the 1930s and 1940s, there was nothing unusual about finding yourself threatened by contagious disease. Mumps, measles, chicken pox and German measles swept through entire schools and towns; I had all four….*We took the Asian flu in stride. We said our prayers and took our chances.*”

I guess we're all pansies today worried about 1 in a million chance of a blood clot.
fwiw I had measles, mumps & chicken pox as a kid...I remember getting a mustard plaster in bed as a treatment lol...not sure for which virus though.


----------



## bgc_fan

Depending on metrics, Canada seems to be catching up... not necessarily because of vaccine supply, but that other countries are starting to slow down once they hit the 50-60% mark for their first dose. For example, Israel hit 60% back in March, but over the last 2 months, only added another 2.5%. It could be one of those vaccine hesitancy issues as those who want it, will go first, but then there's going to be hold-overs. Given the expect increase in supply over the next month or so, we'd probably catch up to the US, as they are also starting to trend towards a plateau. We're at 32% vs 43% for the US.

Of course, we're a long way off for complete vaccination, considering we're at 3% or so, compared to the US at 30%. But again once supplies increase and we get over the first dose lag, I'm sure we'll catch up. The bigger question is whether we'll have a higher vaccination rate than other countries when all is said and done.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations


----------



## cainvest

bgc_fan said:


> Depending on metrics, Canada seems to be catching up... not necessarily because of vaccine supply, but that other countries are starting to slow down once they hit the 50-60% mark for their first dose.


See if they are comparing the vaccine percentage to the total population. If they are then it'll top out well below 100% because the below 18 age group isn't being vaccinated.


----------



## bgc_fan

cainvest said:


> See if they are comparing the vaccine percentage to the total population. If they are then it'll top out well below 100% because the below 18 age group isn't being vaccinated.


So that is a good point. I would assume that it is the total population so there is going to be some delta.
It looks like Israel was vaccinating those between 16-18. Covid: Israel vaccinates 16 to 18-year-olds ahead of exams. Based on its demographics roughly 28% are from 0-14 years old. So maybe they'll peak around the 65-70% mark because of that.

Canada's 0-19 population is approximately 22.4%, so we should see it possibly top out at 77%.

US is similar to Canada, so it should in theory top out around 74%. 

The question then becomes how many of that percentage ends up getting vaccinated.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> That's maybe a bigger symptom of our electoral system. With something like STV, Liberals would have seats in Alberta and CPC would have seats in Toronto.


I think that would be good, and it would be real diversity. Not this lazy racist/sexist diversity everyone is preaching.

I think a Toronto Conservative and Alberta Liberal might be able to work more towards an agreeable solution.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Ontario is opening up vaccinations for anyone age 50 and older this Thursday.









Vaccine booking will open to those 50+ on Thursday


Read the full story and comment on Tbnewswatch.com




www.tbnewswatch.com


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Ontario is opening up vaccinations for anyone age 50 and older this Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine booking will open to those 50+ on Thursday
> 
> 
> Read the full story and comment on Tbnewswatch.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tbnewswatch.com


They've been open 40+ for over a week at pharmacies.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Yes. This is to register through the provincial portal to be vaccinated at the clinics, almost for sure with Pfizer vaccine. Anyone 50 and older, waiting for that, is now eligible to book on Thursday. 

Anyone 55 and older, who has not done it already should do it before Thursday to beat the rush.


----------



## Money172375

Ontario may shorten COVID-19 vaccine interval, looking into mixing 1st and 2nd doses | Globalnews.ca


Health Minister Christine Elliott says the additional supply might allow the province to shorten the four-month interval between the first and second shots.




globalnews.ca


----------



## OptsyEagle

Only 13 covid cases today in Israel. You gotta like vaccine.









Only 13 new COVID cases diagnosed in 24 hours, lowest in 14 months


Just 100 serious cases now in Israel as infection rates continue steady decline since pandemic's peak in January, due to aggressive vaccination drive




www.timesofisrael.com


----------



## Money172375

I may have mentioned the low update for those 80+ in my small rural town. I actually was talking to two neighbours and both said they didn’t want to get it. One did, just so he would be allowed to travel. The other is still a “no”….hoping that vaccine passports don’t come to reality.

I just find it weird that you would choose to get the vaccine simply because of travel. And not all the other good reasons. Funny how people forget about measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, shingles, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio etc etc.


----------



## sags

A surprising number of people have phobias about doctors, hospitals, dentists.......etc.

They make excuses about the safety of the vaccines to hide their fears of a panic attack in the vaccination centers.


----------



## Eder

OptsyEagle said:


> Only 13 covid cases today in Israel. You gotta like vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only 13 new COVID cases diagnosed in 24 hours, lowest in 14 months
> 
> 
> Just 100 serious cases now in Israel as infection rates continue steady decline since pandemic's peak in January, due to aggressive vaccination drive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timesofisrael.com



Thats incredible...shows that 80% coverage may not be necessary to get rid of this bug.


----------



## OptsyEagle

My wife asked me today what I was up to. I said. "I thought I would just sit around and make some more antibodies. What are you up to today?"

Vaccine makes everyday a productive day.


----------



## Retired Peasant

Money172375 said:


> I may have mentioned the low update for those 80+ in my small rural town. I actually was talking to two neighbours and both said they didn’t want to get it.


How is that other neighbour doing; the one sent home with a burst appendix?


----------



## cainvest

Got my pfizer shot yesterday ... all is good, very minor discomfort where injected, no other issues.


----------



## andrewf

Was (finally) able to register for a shot... May 20.


----------



## Money172375

Retired Peasant said:


> How is that other neighbour doing; the one sent home with a burst appendix?


I’ve seen her walking around but she doesn’t look good. Haven’t spoken to her.


----------



## Eder

More CDC stuff

*"Cleaning once a day is usually enough," the CDC said on its website.
It noted that the risk of contracting COVID-19 from touching a contaminated surface is less than one in 10,000.*

I quit using hand sanitizer a couple weeks ago...its pretty unhealthy and I have survived over 60 years without it.


----------



## cainvest

Some data reported for Canada ...

_The Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC) says there have been 6,789 confirmed COVID-19 cases in those who have received the first dose of a vaccine out of more than 13 million people who have been vaccinated. 

PHAC said 4,515 of these cases were reported within 14 days of being vaccinated and 2,274 cases were reported at a minimum of 14 days after receiving the first dose. As of April 26, out of the 2,274 cases reported above for which outcome information was available, 203 COVID-19 cases were reported to be hospitalized, and 53 cases died due to COVID-19._


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> PHAC said 4,515 of these cases were reported within 14 days of being vaccinated and 2,274 cases were reported at a minimum of 14 days after receiving the first dose.


If someone is diagnosed with COVID within 14 days of being vaccinated, I think that means they picked up COVID before safely waiting out the 14 days to build up their immune response.

So maybe this result isn't as bad as it sounds. The majority of those "breakthrough cases" happened before the person really was protected from the vaccine.

The message here is ... be damned careful in the days leading up to your vaccination, and for 14 days after getting vaccinated.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> The message here is ... be damned careful in the days leading up to your vaccination, and for 14 days after getting vaccinated.


Actually, it is reported for pfizer, that it can take up to 21 days. In any case, vaccinated or not, people should follow the same guidelines.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> More CDC stuff
> 
> *"Cleaning once a day is usually enough," the CDC said on its website.
> It noted that the risk of contracting COVID-19 from touching a contaminated surface is less than one in 10,000.*
> 
> I quit using hand sanitizer a couple weeks ago...its pretty unhealthy and I have survived over 60 years without it.


I still wash my hands after visiting the grocery store, etc.


----------



## Eder

I wash my hands as well but just back to normal frequency. I just quit the hand sanitizer shtick...not healthy.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Some data reported for Canada ...
> 
> _The Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC) says there have been 6,789 confirmed COVID-19 cases in those who have received the first dose of a vaccine out of more than 13 million people who have been vaccinated.
> 
> PHAC said 4,515 of these cases were reported within 14 days of being vaccinated and 2,274 cases were reported at a minimum of 14 days after receiving the first dose. As of April 26, out of the 2,274 cases reported above for which outcome information was available, 203 COVID-19 cases were reported to be hospitalized, and 53 cases died due to COVID-19._


In my opinion a break-through case is not a break-through case unless the person obtained the infection after 14 days AND was hospitalized and/or died.

The reason for this should be obvious.

First of all we know we need to wait 14 days for the vaccine to work, so with less time we can call these cases unvaccinated.
Secondly, we know that when a person receives any dose of vaccine and especially when they receive their 2nd dose, they tend to get side effect symptoms. Most feel fatigue and get headaches and quite a few even get fevers.
Thirdly, we know the vaccine cannot keep virus out of your nose and mouth. Its benefit is that when you do get active virus in your nose and mouth it neutralizes it quickly. Unfortuneately that is not instantaneously completed. It still takes some time, although it should be a lot less time for the vaccinated.

So if you think about it for a moment you will see that if the vaccine is working well, when you are exposed to covid, your immune system will attack it quickly, but while doing so you will experience covid symptoms. If you test that person right away, they will test positive for the short period that they are. What we are calling a case of symptomatic covid is in most cases just your vaccinated immune system doing what it should be doing. We are not looking at this the correct way.

So unless a person gets severely sick or dies, it is not a break-through case. I don't know how long it will be before someone else sees this and clears up the confusion but for now, my suggestion is to ignore most of it. It is just for hype. The vaccines are working very well. Just look at Israel.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> It is just for hype.


Yes


> The vaccines are working very well.


Yes


> Just look at Israel.


They closed their borders, like every other country who got COVID19 under control quickly.

We've known quarantines and travel restrictions work, they worked with SARS, they worked with COVID.
Maybe next pandemic our PM will do their job.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> They closed their borders, like every other country who got COVID19 under control quickly.
> 
> We've known quarantines and travel restrictions work, they worked with SARS, they worked with COVID.
> Maybe next pandemic our PM will do their job.


Don't distract the point. The virus was already in Israel before they started vaccinating. The border closing would have had a very small benefit. The vaccines are working well. That is the point. Let's leave your political agenda out of this good news.


----------



## Money172375

Pfizer approved down to age 12 in Canada


----------



## Money172375

Is there any update on when these vaccines will receive “final” approval….not under emergency use? Is this something we can expect?


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> In my opinion a break-through case is not a break-through case unless the person obtained the infection after 14 days AND was hospitalized and/or died.


Everyone counts breakthrough by positive tests and do normally show post-14 day or fully vaccinated breakdown case counts. In Canada, almost all cases logged are symptomatic as we generally don't test unless you have symptoms. I do agree with their criteria, a positive test is a breakthrough case. 



OptsyEagle said:


> First of all we know we need to wait 14 days for the vaccine to work, so with less time we can call these cases unvaccinated.


Also good to note the 14 day is not a magic number, it's not like a light switch. Protection grows over time and one breakdown I saw showed it can take up to 21 days.


----------



## Beaver101

While the age requirement for the Pfizer vaccine has been approved for youngsters with age as low as 12+ is great news, I hope the "actual date" for the "2nd dose" gets ironed out other than previously stating it's a 4 months (and "now maybe less") interval. Plus the "idea" of using a mixed vaccine concoction otherwise we (the Canadian experts) are really screwed up.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Everyone counts breakthrough by positive tests and do normally show post-14 day or fully vaccinated breakdown case counts. In Canada, almost all cases logged are symptomatic as we generally don't test unless you have symptoms. I do agree with their criteria, a positive test is a breakthrough case.


You are missing the point. The point is that if you test every person vaccinated, every day, you will see a huge number of positive cases. That is because the vaccine cannot stop virus from entering your body. We also know that when your body is exposed to anything that looks like covid, the vaccine for example, your immune system responding to it will produce covid like symptoms. Symptoms like headache, fatigue and fever. That happens when an immune system is working as it should.

So, we should NOT be looking for the same symptoms to confirm that the vaccine is not working properly. Do you see what I mean. That is what we are currently doing and it is wrong. What we observe, in the majority of cases we call a break-through cases, is nothing more then an observation of our immune system kicking the living daylights out of the covid that the person came in contact with. I don't think we should call that a failed case of vaccination. It is working exactly the way it should unless that person is sent to the hospital or dies.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> The point is that if you test every person vaccinated, every day, you will see a huge number of positive cases.


If that was the case then all the clincal trial data is invalid because it was based on positive tests?


----------



## Eder

Money172375 said:


> Pfizer approved down to age 12 in Canada


Alberta has opened vaccinations to everyone 12 & over.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> If that was the case then all the clincal trial data is invalid because it was based on positive tests?


I can't comment on the clinical data. You can call it valid or invalid as you please. I am just saying that when a person is vaccinated the 2nd time we know they have a higher preponderance of symptoms, like headache, fatigue and fever. We also know that no covid is involved, so we can then be certain that these symptoms are from a person's immune response and not from the virus itself.

So if one is vaccinated and they come into contact with covid, we know that even if the vaccinated immune system is responding as it should, these people will have two attributes. 1) they will have headaches, fatigue and fever and 2) because they came in contact with covid, they will test positive, if tested quickly enough. Right now the idiots now are calling those two events a break-through case.

So what I am saying is that unless they get severely sick for a long period of time (many days) and/or die, then this is vaccine working as it should. It should not be called a failed event as we refer to break-through cases.

Should we have only used hospitalizations and death in the trials? Possibly yes. It would certainly have given everyone a better understanding of the fact that from an efficacy point of view, all the vaccines really are the same. Anyway, that is a different matter, one of which I am not talking about nor have I given much thought to. I am just trying to warn people that most break-through cases are not break-through cases.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Right now the idiots now are calling those two events a break-through case.


Since they defined it and are reporting it, I gather they can report it as "breakthrough cases" if they wish. I'm not sure why you have an issue with their terminology and see no reason for you to call them idiots. I mean the entire efficacy is based on the same testing which they were required to hit at least 50%.

They also provide data on serious outcomes (hospitalizations & deaths) so _you_ can choose to focus on that data if you wish. Call it "effectiveness against serious outcomes" vs the much broader "breakthrough cases".


----------



## OptsyEagle

They can call them what they want but if they explain them as a failure of the vaccine it can create vaccine hesitancy for no valid reason. I think that is idiotic during a pandemic. Perhaps there are other explanations for that type of behavior. Take your pick

I am just trying to help others understand when the vaccine works and when it does not so they can make better decisions.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> They can call them what they want but if they explain them as a failure of the vaccine it can create vaccine hesitancy for no valid reason. I think that is idiotic during a pandemic. Perhaps there are other explanations for that type of behavior. Take your pick
> 
> I am just trying to help others understand when the vaccine works and when it does not so they can make better decisions.


It's idiotic to be transparent about how the vaccines are doing? I would strongly disagree with that. 

If everyone doesn't already know the benefits of being vaccinated by now they likely never will. There is more than enough data to keep rational people "off the fence" and there is no helping the irrational ones anyways unless they trust a rational friend or family member.


----------



## OptsyEagle

They are not being transparent. Because of the definition of a break-through illustrates both situations where the vaccine is working and when the vaccine is not, they have no idea which of the breakthrough cases are actual failures of the vaccine compared to which ones are illustrating the effectiveness of the vaccine.

You see, it is very likely that many of the so called BT cases, where a person had a symptom AND tested positive, that if they tested that person the very next day, they would have tested negative. In other words, the vaccinated immune system neutralized the virus quickly. So knowing that what should that case be called? Right now it is called a failure. I think it is a success. In either case we don't know because they did not test them again.

That is my point.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> It's idiotic to be transparent about how the vaccines are doing? I would strongly disagree with that.
> 
> If everyone doesn't already know the benefits of being vaccinated by now they likely never will. There is more than enough data to keep rational people "off the fence" and there is no helping the irrational ones anyways unless they trust a rational friend or family member.


I agree that lack of transparency is a bigger problem.
Our government has a HUGE credibility problem, if they're hiding stuff, that won't help.

The problem with "science" particularly something like this, the data is a [email protected]#[email protected]# disaster.
So what they do is come up with rigid definitions of everything, and slot it into categories that are mostly correct.

This is why discussions require clear agreed definitions.
That's why people playing loose with definitions during other discussions drives me crazy.


Also regarding "Break Through" infections, what is the purpose.
If the criteria is you test positive for the virus, that's fine.
If it's you are symptomatic and positive, that's fine too.
If it's symptomatic, and positive for at least 24 hours (ie 2 sequential tests) that's fine too.
If it's symptomatic, postivive for 7 days, and results in hospitalization, that's a fine definition too.

I don't really care what definition they use, just pick one and report the data as such.
Heck, make it "Breakthrough level 1, 2,3 ,4,5"

But don't pretend that the whole analysis is wrong, simply because you would have chose "Breakthrough level 3" instead of "breakthrough level 1"

For health, I'm concerned if they have hospitalizations.
For pandemic purposes I'm concerned with spread.

But I can accept being sick and testing positive as an acceptable definition of breakthrough.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> You see, it is very likely that many of the so called BT cases, where a person had a symptom AND tested positive, that if they tested that person the very next day, they would have tested negative. In other words, the vaccinated immune system neutralized the virus quickly. So knowing that what should that case be called? Right now it is called a failure. I think it is a success. In either case we don't know because they did not test them again.


I understand your point, the vaccines work very well preventing serious outcomes ... everyone knows this! 

My point is if someone is infected enough to develop covid symptoms and show positive on a PCR test that is showing a level of virus intrusion (replication) within the body. Sure, it "might" not last as long as someone unvaccinated but it's still present. Overall is this a failure? No and it is expected based on the clinical trial data and real world data. 

Lets put it another way .... Let's say the infectious efficacy (mild symptoms) for our only vaccine was 10% (based on PCR testing) BUT the serious outcome efficacy (hospitalization/death) was 99% .... do you think people would take the vaccine?


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Lets put it another way .... Let's say the infectious efficacy (mild symptoms) for our only vaccine was 10% (based on PCR testing) BUT the serious outcome efficacy (hospitalization/death) was 99% .... do you think people would take the vaccine?


To protect against a virus that was killing people. I would take it in a heartbeat.

The problem with how they define a break-through case is that we currently have people on youtube talking about how they were vaccinated, and later were infected with covid-19. Those people on the internet look very healthy to me and they certainly are not dead, but they are sprouting the idea that the vaccine does not work.

Advertising break-through cases without explaining things properly give that same impression.


----------



## OptsyEagle

All this could be quickly cleared up if someone had interest in finding out. We are currently 6 months into vaccination and we really don't know how infectious a vaccinated person might be. Why would they not, at the very least, when a vaccinated person tests positive for covid-19 to ask them if they mind being tested each day to confirm how long they maintain the infection and symptoms.

When compared to non-vaccinated people this would tell us two important things. It would clear up how well the vaccine works, with respect to symptomatic covid by telling us how long a vaccinated person is sick. That is almost as important as whether you get sick or not. It would also tell us how long a vaccinated person might be infectious compared to non-vaccinated people.

As far as I know, no one is doing this, and I for one think it would be fairly easy to do and would shed very useful light on the true efficacies of these drugs. What they are doing is not really telling us much except that the vaccine does not prevent covid from entering your nose or mouth.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> To protect against a virus that was killing people. I would take it in a heartbeat.
> 
> The problem with how they define a break-through case is that we currently have people on youtube talking about how they were vaccinated, and later were infected with covid-19. Those people on the internet look very healthy to me and they certainly are not dead, but they are sprouting the idea that the vaccine does not work.
> 
> Advertising break-through cases without explaining things properly give that same impression.


You're never going to stop those youtube or social media people from saying the vaccine doesn't work. If that's where some people are getting their primary info from ... well, good luck to them as the Darwin awards has that covered. Anyone in their right mind would search for a credible source of information.

This is a very good explanation I think,
COVID-19 Vaccination


----------



## andrewf

Not COVID vaccines, but Moderna has announced very promising results from Phase 1 trials on their mRNA HIV vaccine. Still early, but would be an enormous breakthrough and will be an enormous boone for Africa in particular.









The four-decade quest for an HIV vaccine yields new hope


While the reality is far more nuanced than recent hype suggests, a breakthrough strategy is finally offering fresh tools for battling this devastating virus.




www.nationalgeographic.com


----------



## damian13ster

I completely agree with you that only hospitalizations and deaths should be used since the positive numbers are inaccurate by order of magnitude according to some sources.

The problem with that: it shows that government interventions have ZERO EFFECT on hospitalizations and deaths, with multiple peer reviewed studies confirming that.

Covid-19 Mortality: A Matter of Vulnerability Among Nations Facing Limited Margins of Adaptation

It is also shown simply by looking at populations.

States with strictest lockdowns ruined livelihoods — without saving lives

There is zero scientific evidence to breach of charter rights.

Let's hope that with vaccines now being open to everyone we can get majority vaccinated so governments can stop with the lockdowns without having to come out and admit they have been proven to be completely useless, ineffective, and illegal


----------



## Eder

It is interesting that a graph of USA states show that there was basically no difference in deaths/million to date between hard lock down states and almost no restriction states.


----------



## :) lonewolf

damian13ster said:


> Let's hope that with vaccines now being open to everyone we can get majority vaccinated so governments can stop with the lockdowns without having to come out and admit they have been proven to be completely useless, ineffective, and illegal


Good job for seeing the truth. Look through Galileo telescope to see a little farther. 

Lie after lie after lie 24/7 Do you really trust the drug pushers & government to now start telling the truth regarding the genetic cocktails ? Why do you think the drug dealers were granted immunity with their genetic cocktails which are not really vaccines ? Why is the media censoring anything bad about the vaccines or down playing side effects they can not hide.

Everyone that gets vaccinated is just putting money into the drug dealers pockets which gives them an incentive to make man made viruses to create a market for vaccines.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> It is interesting that a graph of USA states show that there was basically no difference in deaths/million to date between hard lock down states and almost no restriction states.


It's more complicated than that.

Ontario had widely disparate outcomes despite similar measures.

There is no question that quarantines and limited interactions work


----------



## OptsyEagle

Lockdowns are only implemented because of the high rates of people being hospitalized and dying so to think that you will look at lockdown communities and not see high death rates is not likely to happen.

Just give these things some thought and you can probably work it out yourself.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Also good to note the 14 day is not a magic number, it's not like a light switch. Protection grows over time and one breakdown I saw showed it can take up to 21 days.


This is great advice and it has been proven that protection continues to grow. One study showed real world improvement continuing up to 59 days after vaccination.

That said, most of the advice about how long it takes for the vaccine to begin to be effective comes from the trial data. That data looks like this from Pfizer:










This is precisely the reason they say that it takes 14 days before their vaccine really starts to show efficacy. Now if you give this a little more thought and add a few other observations from our pandemic you may recall that when a person is infected with covid-19, it usually took about 4 to 6 days before they showed symptoms. Remember the above infections on the graph are all "symptomatic infections". Let's say the average took 5 days of incubation. If you started to see symptoms today or overnight, we can assume it would not be until the next day that you would be tested. So 6 days before you become a person on that chart.

What that means is that the majority of the infections recorded above, in the 1st 6 days were from people who were already infected when they received their 1st dose of vaccine. The people who were "not getting infected" in the 12th day after their 1st dose, was because the vaccine was obviously starting to protect them on day 6, plus or minus a day or two.

I don't want anyone to think that they are fully immune on day 6 because we know that you will never be fully immune, ever. That said, if you are the type to be losing sleep over getting a covid infection, I believe that after about day 6 or 7 you are probably starting to be fairly well protected. As said, every extra day you can avoid exposure to covid will see you with a higher level of protection but it definitely gets started within the 1st week.


----------



## Money172375

When do we expect “final” approval for these vaccinations? Ie. when will “emergency” approval move to “approved”. Months? Years? I have some doubts (fears?) about vaccinating my teens.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Lockdowns are only implemented because of the high rates of people being hospitalized and dying so to think that you will look at lockdown communities and not see high death rates is not likely to happen.
> 
> Just give these things some thought and you can probably work it out yourself.


Well I think that's one way to look at it.
Not disagreeing, but some jurisdictions did pretty harsh lockdowns and restrictions. They didn't wait for high rates of deaths or hospitalizations.

I think different cultures reacted differently.

Canada and the US are not monocultures, there is very significant regional variation.


----------



## cainvest

Money172375 said:


> When do we expect “final” approval for these vaccinations?


Pfizer is expected to file for approval this month in the USA. At this point it's just "paper work" and they are putting out as much vaccine as they can so no rush for them to do so. Not sure how long the process takes to get the final approval.


----------



## andrewf

OptsyEagle said:


> I don't want anyone to think that they are fully immune on day 6 because we know that you will never be fully immune, ever. That said, if you are the type to be losing sleep over getting a covid infection, I believe that after about day 6 or 7 you are probably starting to be fairly well protected


I don't see why this is important. You wouldn't be losing any more sleep than before you were vaccinated. We put up with 15 months already, another week of caution is trivial.


----------



## OptsyEagle

andrewf said:


> I don't see why this is important. You wouldn't be losing any more sleep than before you were vaccinated. We put up with 15 months already, another week of caution is trivial.


It is important to understand how it works. The benefit someone gets from that is up to them.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> It's more complicated than that.
> 
> Ontario had widely disparate outcomes despite similar measures.
> 
> There is no question that quarantines and limited interactions work


It is extremely unwise not to question things.

Luckily scientists and researchers agree. For that reason they have looked into effects of lockdowns (and other parameters) in 160 jurisdictions across entire world. They did find that government interventions have no significant effect on deaths and hospitalizations.

Fact is that government interventions don't work.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> It is extremely unwise not to question things.
> 
> Luckily scientists and researchers agree. For that reason they have looked into effects of lockdowns (and other parameters) in 160 jurisdictions across entire world. They did find that government interventions have no significant effect on deaths and hospitalizations.
> 
> Fact is that government interventions don't work.


I thought Japan and Taiwan had very effective government interventions that gave them relatively low deaths, despite their relatively high population density.

I'd be interested to read your study. I honestly don't see how they can claim there was no significant impact.
I think it is interesting that you didn't link to it.

I would suggest that government intervention was the primary reason these countries also did quite well.








Countries and territories that are COVID-19 free


For the past 12 months, COVID-19 has held a firm grip on almost every country around the world, with some well into their second and third waves. According to the World Health Organization, as of March 2021, 223 countries, areas and territories have confirmed cases of COVID-19, but there are a...




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> I thought Japan and Taiwan had very effective government interventions that gave them relatively low deaths, despite their relatively high population density.
> 
> I'd be interested to read your study. I honestly don't see how they can claim there was no significant impact.
> I think it is interesting that you didn't link to it.
> 
> I would suggest that government intervention was the primary reason these countries also did quite well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Countries and territories that are COVID-19 free
> 
> 
> For the past 12 months, COVID-19 has held a firm grip on almost every country around the world, with some well into their second and third waves. According to the World Health Organization, as of March 2021, 223 countries, areas and territories have confirmed cases of COVID-19, but there are a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca



I did link it about 2-3 pages back. I will do it again for your convenience:

Covid-19 Mortality: A Matter of Vulnerability Among Nations Facing Limited Margins of Adaptation 

There is couple more referenced in this article (hyperlinks sent to the studies)
States with strictest lockdowns ruined livelihoods — without saving lives


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> I did link it about 2-3 pages back. I will do it again for your convenience:
> 
> Covid-19 Mortality: A Matter of Vulnerability Among Nations Facing Limited Margins of Adaptation
> 
> There is couple more referenced in this article (hyperlinks sent to the studies)
> States with strictest lockdowns ruined livelihoods — without saving lives


Interesting studies, I just think that their claim is overly broad.

They acknowledge behavior change had an impact.
The problem is that the strictness of the order doesn't' seem to match the amount of behavior change.
Evaluating the effects of shelter-in-place policies during the COVID-19 pandemic << figure 2.
Also I think 14 days is too short.
\
I think the real takehome is that SIP didn't actually reduce mobility.

I still hold that countries with rigid restrictions, that were complied with, had lower death rates.

Compare Japan to Brazil.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Interesting studies, I just think that their claim is overly broad.
> 
> They acknowledge behavior change had an impact.
> The problem is that the strictness of the order doesn't' seem to match the amount of behavior change.
> Evaluating the effects of shelter-in-place policies during the COVID-19 pandemic << figure 2.
> Also I think 14 days is too short.
> \
> I think the real takehome is that SIP didn't actually reduce mobility.
> 
> I still hold that countries with rigid restrictions, that were complied with, had lower death rates.
> 
> Compare Japan to Brazil.


You can't compare Japan to Brazil. That is a terrible comparison. Look at the factors that actually had effect on hospitalizations and deaths - climate, obesity. Obesity was the single most important factor and an explanation why Asian countries were hit much less than Americas have - please, read the study.

And yes, there are underlying reasons why restrictions don't work. Those reasons haven't and actually can't be addressed though. It has been over 13 months of ineffective restrictions now and the effectiveness haven't improved, while all the damages associated have materialized.

If one would follow the science - government restrictions would be gone by last September. The problem is - in this situation politicians don't follow the science. They simply do politics.
They are and were too deep in to say sorry for ruining lives and economy - we ignored facts and made a mistake. They have to save face even at the cost of ruining more lives.

Science says open it up


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Luckily scientists and researchers agree. For that reason they have looked into effects of lockdowns (and other parameters) in 160 jurisdictions across entire world. They did find that government interventions have no significant effect on deaths and hospitalizations.
> 
> Fact is that government interventions don't work.


They certainly work well here! 

I can watch the level of infection spread each time they loosen the restrictions here. These things are so difficult to draw conclusions from using high level data analysis. Also, lockdowns can mean many things and how much compliance are they getting from the public is another matter.

In the end it's simple logic, if people are forced apart the virus will have great difficulty spreading.


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> They certainly work well here!
> 
> I can watch the level of infection spread each time they loosen the restrictions here. These things are so difficult to draw conclusions from using high level data analysis. Also, lockdowns can mean many things and how much compliance are they getting from the public is another matter.
> 
> In the end it's simple logic, if people are forced apart the virus will have great difficulty spreading.


But that's the very problem with society nowadays that are only increased by the pandemic, isn't it?
We get into our camps and then confirmation bias takes over, fed by the media, algorithms in social media, etc.
Your logic makes sense, assuming the spread is done by droplets (it turned out it isn't) and that retention of the virus in the air and surfaces is short (it isn't). For those very reasons I was pro-lockdowns in february- may as well. only then actual scientific studies that go beyond my self-admitted bias showed that my position was wrong. So shouldn't we revisit our predetermined views when faced with scientific evidence?

You are talking about anecdotes heavily influenced by confirmation bias. This doesn't hold up to any kind of scrutiny. 
For this very reason we have scientific, peer reviewed studies. To remove and control biases as much as possible.
And those scientific, peer reviewed studies show that government restrictions don't work.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> You can't compare Japan to Brazil.


I did compare them.
Japan had lockdowns, Brazil encouraged public gatherings.
Japan had very very few cases, Brazil is a [email protected]#show.



> Science says open it up


Science has said that behaviour change alters the spread of COVID19.
Government restrictions can be one aspect of this, for example restrictions on international travel is a forced behaviour change.

I'm not going to debate if they make sense now, as that cost benefit varies by situation.
Myself I think in some cases the restrictions were too light, and in others they were too strong.
Some restrictions were effective, some weren't, some where complied with, some were not.

I think that masks likely did reduce some hospitalizations, are you actually suggesting that wearing a mask in public has no effect? 
There is no question in my mind that if you close international travel, you do not bring more cases and new variants into a country. The data supports this.

Really these studies are in my opinion a partial look at the situation, and the conclusion that "restrictions don't work" is a stretch.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Your logic makes sense, assuming the spread is done by droplets (it turned out it isn't) and that retention of the virus in the air and surfaces is short (it isn't).


Care to back this up with current studies?

Currently prolonged exposure indoors is by far the #1 cause for transmission.



damian13ster said:


> You are talking about anecdotes heavily influenced by confirmation bias. This doesn't hold up to any kind of scrutiny.
> For this very reason we have scientific, peer reviewed studies. To remove and control biases as much as possible.
> And those scientific, peer reviewed studies show that government restrictions don't work.


It's funny how so many social media people hook onto "confirmation bias" like nobody in the world anymore can be objective. And please feel free to show "in depth" peer reviewed studies on restrictions as your previous links don't cover that.


----------



## damian13ster

Brazil has over 10x higher obesity rate than Japan. You choose to ignore a factor that has single highest influence on deaths and hospitalizations while focusing on a factor that scientific research shows has no effect.

Look, I am not here to convince you at all. Clearly you are in one corner.
I am simply providing scientific facts. Why do I do that? Because I believe that scientists from France, Switzerland, Czech Republic who wrote and reviewed the paper are smarter than I am.
If you believe you are smarter than them and choose that your opinion has higher value than facts, then go ahead


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> You can't compare Japan to Brazil. That is a terrible comparison. Look at the factors that actually had effect on hospitalizations and deaths - climate, obesity. Obesity was the single most important factor and an explanation why Asian countries were hit much less than Americas have - please, read the study.
> 
> And yes, there are underlying reasons why restrictions don't work. Those reasons haven't and actually can't be addressed though. It has been over 13 months of ineffective restrictions now and the effectiveness haven't improved, while all the damages associated have materialized.


I'll throw another comparison, age. We know that age as big factor a factor as obesity. So average age in Japan: 48.4 years, Brazil: 33.5 years. 

The reason why ineffective restrictions haven't worked in Canada and the US is precisely because they weren't really restrictions. You should look at New Zealand and Australia to see how they lockdown when they have an outbreak. You can leave out the whole, but they're an island argument. The point is that they had tough restrictions. 3 days hotel quarantine in Canada? 14 days in New Zealand and Australia. Even without vaccinations they are able to handle it well, by ensuring that you limit spread of covid.

Not too mention that in Canada we're really reactive instead of proactive... case numbers going down? Open things up. Case numbers going up? Lock things down. Then repeat when case numbers go down. The sensible thing would be to keep things locked down until the case numbers are controlled for at least a few months or so. Instead, we're ping-ponging back and forth every few weeks, so obviously these measures aren't working because we're too impatient to actually wait until things get sorted out..


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Brazil has over 10x higher obesity rate than Japan. You choose to ignore a factor that has single highest influence on deaths and hospitalizations while focusing on a factor that scientific research shows has no effect.
> 
> Look, I am not here to convince you at all. Clearly you are in one corner.
> I am simply providing scientific facts. Why do I do that? Because I believe that scientists from France, Switzerland, Czech Republic who wrote and reviewed the paper are smarter than I am.
> If you believe you are smarter than them and choose that your opinion has higher value than facts, then go ahead


So are you saying thin people don't catch COVID?

The death rate in Japan was 2.7 per million
Brazil 1900 per million.








COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista


COVID deaths worldwide were highest in Peru, topping a list that compares deaths per million in 210 countries worldwide.




www.statista.com





I'd suggest that the reason the death rate is 700 times lower in Japan, is at least in part, due government restrictions.
Specifically, travel restrictions and gathering restrictions.

I am not questioning the study itself.
I can accept that the government restrictions they studied did not appear to have a significant impact.

I am disputing the overly broad generalization that government restrictions have no effect. 
Are you really willing to say that preventing COVID positive people from entering the country "has no effect"? Is that REALLY your opinion?


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> So are you saying thin people don't catch COVID?
> 
> The death rate in Japan was 2.7 per million
> Brazil 1900 per million.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista
> 
> 
> COVID deaths worldwide were highest in Peru, topping a list that compares deaths per million in 210 countries worldwide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statista.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd suggest that the reason the death rate is 700 times lower in Japan, is at least in part, due government restrictions.
> Specifically, travel restrictions and gathering restrictions.
> 
> I am not questioning the study itself.
> I can accept that the government restrictions they studied did not appear to have a significant impact.
> 
> I am disputing the overly broad generalization that government restrictions have no effect.
> Are you really willing to say that preventing COVID positive people from entering the country "has no effect"? Is that REALLY your opinion?


Sorry, but you lost any kind of credibility with this post. Death rate in Japan is 83/1mln, which means death rate in Brazil is about 20 times higher, not 700. Also, ICU numbers in Brazil are just 8 times higher than in Japan. Study looks at both.

Nowhere am I saying that thin people don't catch COVID. Please, show me that quote?
They catch it, they are just significantly less likely to have symptoms, end up in a hospital, or die.

And to previous poster: you pick and choose your data. That's why it doesn't hold up to any kind of scrutiny.
Peer-reviewed study that was linked looks at 160 different Jurisdictions. Not 3-4 like you choose to try to make your point. Anyway, will take peer reviewed study from acclaimed scientists that look at 160 different jurisdictions over anonymous poster picking 3-4 data points to prove his point. And am surprised that anyone with their right mind would do differently.

And I am not presenting my opinion here. I am presenting FACTS from peer-reviewed study


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> And to previous poster: you pick and choose your data. That's why it doesn't hold up to any kind of scrutiny.
> Peer-reviewed study that was linked looks at 160 different Jurisdictions. Not 3-4 like you choose to try to make your point. Anyway, will take peer reviewed study from acclaimed scientists that look at 160 different jurisdictions over anonymous poster picking 3-4 data points to prove his point. And am surprised that anyone with their right mind would do differently.
> 
> And I am not presenting my opinion here. I am presenting FACTS from peer-reviewed study


Please provide the direct link (was it inside the nypost.com link? If so, which one?) to the study you are using "facts" from.


----------



## damian13ster

This will be the very last time I provide the link. It has been provided 3 times already within last 10 pages:









Covid-19 Mortality: A Matter of Vulnerability Among Nations Facing Limited Margins of Adaptation


Context: The human development territories have been severely constrained under the Covid-19 pandemic. A common dynamics has been observed, but its propagation has not been homogeneous over each continent. We aimed at characterizing the non-viral parameters that were most associated with death...




www.frontiersin.org


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> This will be the very last time I provide the link. It has been provided 3 times already within last 10 pages:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19 Mortality: A Matter of Vulnerability Among Nations Facing Limited Margins of Adaptation
> 
> 
> Context: The human development territories have been severely constrained under the Covid-19 pandemic. A common dynamics has been observed, but its propagation has not been homogeneous over each continent. We aimed at characterizing the non-viral parameters that were most associated with death...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.frontiersin.org


That link takes me to ...

*Covid-19 Mortality: A Matter of Vulnerability Among Nations Facing Limited Margins of Adaptation*

Where on that page does have to do with what we're disucssing? Are you saying it relates to lockdowns or how covid is transmitted?


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> That link takes me to ...
> 
> *Covid-19 Mortality: A Matter of Vulnerability Among Nations Facing Limited Margins of Adaptation*
> 
> Where on that page does have to do with what we're disucssing? Are you saying it relates to lockdowns or how covid is transmitted?


I suggest you read it in entirety and then you will know. What's the point of providing research papers if they aren't read?


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> I suggest you read it in entirety and then you will know. What's the point of providing research papers if they aren't read?


Honesty I don't think you've read it. I centainly hope that's not the article you're extrapolating your "claimed facts " from.


----------



## damian13ster

I have read it in entirety and yes, this research provides facts that I have referenced here. It is very simply to read it for anyone interested. All data, everything is in there.
If you choose to ignore it - there is no one who can stop you from that. Just be aware that all you have doing that is an (uninformed) opinion. If that is sufficient for you (it is for our government) to justify 13 months of extremely harmful policy then all the power to you. Don't claim however, that whatever you write is anything more than that - an uninformed opinion that you are either too lazy or unwilling to confront with actual data


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> I have read it in entirety and yes, this research provides facts that I have referenced here. It is very simply to read it for anyone interested. All data, everything is in there.
> If you choose to ignore it - there is no one who can stop you from that. Just be aware that all you have doing that is an (uninformed) opinion. If that is sufficient for you (it is for our government) to justify 13 months of extremely harmful policy then all the power to you. Don't claim however, that whatever you write is anything more than that - an uninformed opinion that you are either too lazy or unwilling to confront with actual data


It's nothing more than a broad statistical macro overview of covid influences, as they mention.

_We tested major indices from five domains (demography, public health, economy, politics, environment) and their potential associations with Covid-19 mortality during the first 8 months of 2020_

How are you coming to conclusions on lockdown effectiveness or virus transmission based on that? I'll answer that for you ... you can't.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Sorry, but you lost any kind of credibility with this post. Death rate in Japan is 83/1mln, which means death rate in Brazil is about 20 times higher, not 700. Also, ICU numbers in Brazil are just 8 times higher than in Japan. Study looks at both.
> 
> Nowhere am I saying that thin people don't catch COVID. Please, show me that quote?
> They catch it, they are just significantly less likely to have symptoms, end up in a hospital, or die.
> 
> And to previous poster: you pick and choose your data. That's why it doesn't hold up to any kind of scrutiny.
> Peer-reviewed study that was linked looks at 160 different Jurisdictions. Not 3-4 like you choose to try to make your point. Anyway, will take peer reviewed study from acclaimed scientists that look at 160 different jurisdictions over anonymous poster picking 3-4 data points to prove his point. And am surprised that anyone with their right mind would do differently.
> 
> And I am not presenting my opinion here. I am presenting FACTS from peer-reviewed study


Oops wrong column, yes it's 83/million, so only 20 times higher.

Sorry, their study doesn't make logical sense, and there are obvious counterexamples that disprove the claim.

Again I am not disputing their study, or even their conclusions.
I am disputing the obviously wrong claim that "government interventions have no impact."

I do believe that some government interventions were effective. Not all, not most, not even necessarily the ones they looked at.
But yes, I do believe that in some cases the government restrictions and interventions did have an impact.

Lets do a few examples that I'm pretty sure on.
I think closing borders reduces the number of variants entering the country or area.
I think Ontario restricting noncritical surgery made more ICU beds available and likely saved lives.


----------



## MrMatt

Just for interest I looked at the stringency index.








COVID-19 Government Response Tracker


Governments are taking a wide range of measures in response to the COVID-19 outbreak. The response tracker tool aims to track and compare policy responses around the world, rigorously and consistently – and make this data freely available.




www.bsg.ox.ac.uk





Apparently Japan and Taiwan had "low" stringency for government control measures.
I don't quite understand this.

But if you classify countries with very strict measures as "low stringency" this might be why the study gives weird results.

In short, I think this study is far too ambitious and I don't think the results are useful.


----------



## like_to_retire

I remember thinking a week ago that I wouldn't put it past our government to start to try and mix and match vaccine types. It was a joke at the time. Not any more.....

_"This week, Ottawa doubled-down on its policy of treating the population like human guinea pigs by opening the door to mixing vaccines."_

ltr


----------



## cainvest

like_to_retire said:


> _"This week, Ottawa doubled-down on its policy of treating the population like human guinea pigs by opening the door to mixing vaccines."_


Funny how many G7 countries are doing exactly the same thing we are, giving priority to first shots over fully vaccinated.


----------



## damian13ster

Japan had much less strict measures than Canada. I might be wrong here but I don't think they enforced business closures other than nightlife and parlors (on this might be wrong). In comparison to Canada, response of Japan was most definitely 'low' stringency.

You can claim that study doesn't make 'logical' sense, but that is only your opinion. Numbers, evidence, show that government intervention doesn't work, and it is perfectly logical too.

Think about it: less than 0.1% of cases is border related. Border closures would work, if it was used to stop the variants from getting in. They didn't. And once they are already within Canada and 99.9% of transmission happens within the country, then border measures are completely ineffective.

Do you have any single argument against just opening the borders completely down south and letting Canadians drive to get the vaccine in the United States where cases per capita are lower than in Canada and vaccine is readily available?

Curfews? Most idiotic thing one could come up with. You restrict the amount of hours essential business is open, so you are forcing more people to go at the same time. How does that make sense?

Closing tennis courts, golf courses, outdoor team sports? Idiotic. As you mentioned transmissions happen indoors. There were test matches played in Europe to show that the risk of transmission during team sport is completely minimal. Meanwhile obesity - simply most important factor in predicting deaths from COVID - is skyrocketing because people are kept indoors. Idiocy.

Barcelona recently had a music festival for 5,000 people to check on how it will affect the spread. After 2 weeks a total of 6 of participants got infected. Less then average number for the entire population. Big arena, good ventilation - no additional spread.

There is plenty of examples of government intervention that defines any logic whatsoever, and actual data shows that (logically) the government intervention is ineffective in decreasing hospitalizations and deaths due to COVID.

You can cover your eyes and deny the facts however long you choose, but it doesn't change them.


Footnote: another fun fact that shows science isn't always 'logical' until you dig deeper. Smokers are vastly underrepresented when it comes to sever COVID cases. 
Seems completely illogical, right?
Well, it has been shown that nicotine decreases inflammation and likelihood of cytokine storm. Therefore it decreases the immune system response to the virus and decreases severity.
Completely counter-intuitive at first, but also true. Science doesn't always follow 'your' logic, but it doesn't make a fact any less true just because you didn't think of it


----------



## like_to_retire

cainvest said:


> Funny how many G7 countries are doing exactly the same thing we are, giving priority to first shots over fully vaccinated.


Really, could you list all the countries that have extended the first to second dose to 4 months?

ltr


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> You can claim that study doesn't make 'logical' sense, but that is only your opinion. Numbers, evidence, show that government intervention doesn't work, and it is perfectly logical too.


No I'm claiming that study doesn't support your assertions about lockdowns and virus transmission. So far you've just given your opinion without anything to back it. But continue on, you are certainly not the first and won't be the last to do that.

BTW, I do agree some of the restrictions placed on people don't make sense. I also wish all provinces would release more detailed contact tracing numbers to show people where and how the known transmissions are taking place.


----------



## Spudd

There have been multiple studies done on this, not just the one. I googled and the first hit I found was this one:








Ranking the effectiveness of worldwide COVID-19 government interventions - Nature Human Behaviour


Analysing over 50,000â€‰government interventions in more than 200â€‰countries, Haug et al. find that combinations of softer measures, such as risk communication or those increasing healthcare capacity, can be almost as effective as disruptive lockdowns.




www.nature.com





One conclusion from it was:


> We showed that the most effective measures include closing and restricting most places where people gather in smaller or larger numbers for extended periods of time (businesses, bars, schools and so on).


Here's the 2nd one:




__





Inferring the effectiveness of government interventions against COVID-19 | Science






science.sciencemag.org





Their conclusion is:


> Limiting gatherings to fewer than 10 people, closing high-exposure businesses, and closing schools and universities were each more effective than stay-at-home orders, which were of modest effect in slowing transmission.


Essentially it depends on how you define lockdown. Both the studies above found that full stay-at-home order lockdowns weren't necessary but that limiting gatherings and closing high-exposure places were important measures.


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> No I'm claiming that study doesn't support your assertions about lockdowns and virus transmission. So far you've just given your opinion without anything to back it. But continue on, you are certainly not the first and won't be the last to do that.
> 
> BTW, I do agree some of the restrictions placed on people don't make sense. I also wish all provinces would release more detailed contact tracing numbers to show people where and how the known transmissions are taking place.


You telling the lie 3 times doesn't make it true.
Direct quotes from the research paper I posted numerous times:

"The government's responses (i.e., the severity index and the containment and health index) are strongly correlated with the second factorial axis (Figures 2, 4). The death rate from Covid-19 is not correlated with this axis. Therefore, the death rate appears not to be linked with the responses of governments. "

"The correlation matrix (Figure 6) shows that the Covid-19 mortality rate is positively correlated to a group of variables composed of the inactive lifestyle (_r_ = 0.46, _p_ < 10−6), obesity rate (_r_ = 0.55, _p_ < 10−11), GDP (_r_ = 0.40, _p_ < 10−7), economic support index (_r_ = 0.31, _p_ < 10−3), life expectancy (_r_ = 0.50, _p_ < 10−11), burden of mortality due to CVD (_r_ = 0.33, _p_ < 10−3), cancer (_r_ = 0.47, _p_ < 10−9), and deviation from latitude 0 (_r_ = 0.41, _p_ < 10−3). The mortality rate due to Covid-19 is negatively correlated to another group of variables composed of the mortality rate from infectious diseases (_r_ = −0.50, _p_ < 10−9), the progression of life expectancy (_r_ = −0.37, _p_ < 10−4), longitude (_r_ = −0.36, _p_ < 10−3), the deviation from optimum temperature (_r_ = −0.39, _p_ < 10−5), UV index (_r_ = −0.37, _p_ < 10−43). There is no significant correlation with the deviation from optimum humidity (_r_ = 0.03, _p_ = 0.52), the containment and health index (_r_ = 0.07, _p_ = 0.51), the original stringency index (_r_ = 0.07, _p_ = 0.36), and population size (_r_ = −0.05, _p_ = 0.35). A negative correlation also relates obesity and longitude (_r_ = −0.33, _p_ < 10−4)."

"Regarding government's actions (i.e., containment and stringency index), no association was found with the outcome, suggesting that the other studied factors were more important in the Covid-19 mortality than political measures implemented to fight the virus, except for the economic support index."


----------



## cainvest

like_to_retire said:


> Really, could you list all the countries that have extended the first to second dose to 4 months?


Just look at the currently vaccinated rates for each of those countries and you'll see the second dose is not tracking along with the first doses. Many of the EU countries appear to be doing the same thing, not just G7.
Who knows how long will they wait for a second dose ... I gather when the first dose numbers start to drop then they'll open up second dose shots.


----------



## Eder

Anyway its up to good old Saskatchewan to lead the way out of never ending lock downs & BS rules...hopefully Alberta will post a plan as well. I doubt lil Potato will ever post a plan.

Tying reopening to vaccinations should get the morons a bit of incentive to get it done.











Based on the current pace of vaccinations, it is estimated that Saskatchewan could enter Step One about the last week in May, Step Two the third week in June and Step Three the second week in July.

Rider Pride!!


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> I thought Japan and Taiwan had very effective government interventions that gave them relatively low deaths, despite their relatively high population density.
> 
> I'd be interested to read your study. I honestly don't see how they can claim there was no significant impact.
> I think it is interesting that you didn't link to it.
> 
> I would suggest that government intervention was the primary reason these countries also did quite well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Countries and territories that are COVID-19 free
> 
> 
> For the past 12 months, COVID-19 has held a firm grip on almost every country around the world, with some well into their second and third waves. According to the World Health Organization, as of March 2021, 223 countries, areas and territories have confirmed cases of COVID-19, but there are a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca


I'm not sure. There are many reasons that have been speculated. One is that there are other coronavirus strains endemic in east Asia that confer greater resistance to COVID-19. Even some poor/not exceptionally well-managed Asian countries have done very well like Cambodia, Vietnam, etc.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> You telling the lie 3 times doesn't make it true.


Same applies to your extraoplations ...



damian13ster said:


> Direct quotes from the research paper I posted numerous times:
> 
> "The government's responses (i.e., the severity index and the containment and health index) are strongly correlated with the second factorial axis (Figures 2, 4). The death rate from Covid-19 is not correlated with this axis. Therefore, the death rate appears not to be linked with the responses of governments. "
> 
> "The correlation matrix (Figure 6) shows that the Covid-19 mortality rate is positively correlated to a group of variables composed of the inactive lifestyle (_r_ = 0.46, _p_ < 10−6), obesity rate (_r_ = 0.55, _p_ < 10−11), GDP (_r_ = 0.40, _p_ < 10−7), economic support index (_r_ = 0.31, _p_ < 10−3), life expectancy (_r_ = 0.50, _p_ < 10−11), burden of mortality due to CVD (_r_ = 0.33, _p_ < 10−3), cancer (_r_ = 0.47, _p_ < 10−9), and deviation from latitude 0 (_r_ = 0.41, _p_ < 10−3). The mortality rate due to Covid-19 is negatively correlated to another group of variables composed of the mortality rate from infectious diseases (_r_ = −0.50, _p_ < 10−9), the progression of life expectancy (_r_ = −0.37, _p_ < 10−4), longitude (_r_ = −0.36, _p_ < 10−3), the deviation from optimum temperature (_r_ = −0.39, _p_ < 10−5), UV index (_r_ = −0.37, _p_ < 10−43). There is no significant correlation with the deviation from optimum humidity (_r_ = 0.03, _p_ = 0.52), the containment and health index (_r_ = 0.07, _p_ = 0.51), the original stringency index (_r_ = 0.07, _p_ = 0.36), and population size (_r_ = −0.05, _p_ = 0.35). A negative correlation also relates obesity and longitude (_r_ = −0.33, _p_ < 10−4)."
> 
> "Regarding government's actions (i.e., containment and stringency index), no association was found with the outcome, suggesting that the other studied factors were more important in the Covid-19 mortality than political measures implemented to fight the virus, except for the economic support index."


Also note the following from your link,

_This is reinforced by our findings regarding the lack of any association with the government's actions taken during the pandemic. In that sense, the determining demographic, health, development, and environment factors seem much more important to anticipate the lethal consequences of the Covid-19 than government's actions, *especially when such actions are led by political goals more than by sanitary ones*. This last result however cannot predict that other types of measure would not reduce the pandemia death load._

The "government actions taken" are far too broad spectrum, they throw everthing in together both political and sanitary based. They don't specify actions as "lockdowns" and even state other types of measures they can't predict what the outcome would be. All "lockdowns" are not created equal by any means.


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> Same applies to your extraoplations ...
> 
> 
> Also note the following from your link,
> 
> _This is reinforced by our findings regarding the lack of any association with the government's actions taken during the pandemic. In that sense, the determining demographic, health, development, and environment factors seem much more important to anticipate the lethal consequences of the Covid-19 than government's actions, *especially when such actions are led by political goals more than by sanitary ones*. This last result however cannot predict that other types of measure would not reduce the pandemia death load._
> 
> The "government actions taken" are far too broad spectrum, they throw everthing in together both political and sanitary based. They don't specify actions as "lockdowns" and even state other types of measures they can't predict what the outcome would be. All "lockdowns" are not created equal by any means.


No, this is you extrapolating. You extrapolate the fact that government interventions don't result in decrease in hospitalizations and deaths to conclude that government interventions help, they just haven't been done properly. That's extrapolation.

I state the fact that the study concluded. "Therefore, the death rate appears not to be linked with the responses of governments. " 

This is a fact.

Extrapolation is entirely yours


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> No, this is you extrapolating. You extrapolate the fact that government interventions don't result in decrease in hospitalizations and deaths to conclude that government interventions help, they just haven't been done properly. That's extrapolation.
> 
> I state the fact that the study concluded. "Therefore, the death rate appears not to be linked with the responses of governments. "
> 
> This is a fact.
> 
> Extrapolation is entirely yours


Like I said, give me real data on lockdowns (that includes a definition of what a lockdown means), not some washed generalized study including "interventions" and we can discuss the pros/cons. Until then, you just keep on extrapolating on your "so called facts".


----------



## damian13ster

I am sure you are familiar with confounding in full factorial study? For this reason a study that breaks down interventions will be utterly useless. That's why limiting the scope is only way to get accurate results. You can deny the science all you want. Our government denies the science as well. Seems to be national trait I guess.
It isn't so called. Government intervention has no effect on deaths from COVID is a proven fact. 
Your quotation marks don't change that.


----------



## Eder

Governments are making stupid Covid rules that causes many to ignore...like the new one in Alberta....only 10 people allowed at church to ensure Covid safety...unless..of course its a funeral in the same church...then its safe to allow 15 people.

We see how media is crucifying a outdoor rodeo of several hundred people in Alberta yet we are hosting the World Curling Championships at the same time indoors yet that one is safe for all lol.

We see how a few dozen people are threatened with jail in Calgary daring to voice their concerns about lock downs yet 100's of people are vilified as they voice their concerns about racism protesting in the same spot/different day.

One Calgary council idiot wanted people daring to not wear a mask outside to be charged with manslaughter!


----------



## MrMatt

I really like these two quotes.
_This last result however cannot predict that other types of measure would not reduce the pandemia death load._
All "lockdowns" are not created equal by any means.

They are explicitly stating that their research doesn't say all measures will not be effective.

I agree lockdowns differ in severity and compliance.
In some areas a request to isolate (like we had with SARS) was enough.
In some jurisdictions armed guards blocking movement might not be enough.


----------



## Eder

New York City aims to offer COVID-19 vaccinations to tourists - Penticton Western News


Vaccination vans will be stationed in Times Square and other visitor-heavy spots, says mayor




www.pentictonwesternnews.com





Trudope could solve his lack of 2nd shots for Canadians...Give each another CERB check & let em drive down to the Big Apple


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> You can deny the science all you want.


I don't deny science at all, just the incorrect interpretations and extrapolations some people do.



damian13ster said:


> Your quotation marks don't change that.


I thought the quotes really added something to it.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> They are explicitly stating that their research doesn't say all measures will not be effective.


Exactly ... and this also sheds some light on their data. 

_Note that these indices simply record the number and strictness of government policies, and should not be interpreted as ‘scoring’ the appropriateness or effectiveness of a country’s response. A higher position in an index does not necessarily mean that a country's response is ‘better’ than others lower on the index. _

Also with regards to lockdowns it wasn't until they banned selling of non-essential goods here that the number of in-store shoppers dropped substantially and people finally started to stay home. These types of restrictions don't show up in that data, it's not even used.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> New York City aims to offer COVID-19 vaccinations to tourists - Penticton Western News
> 
> 
> Vaccination vans will be stationed in Times Square and other visitor-heavy spots, says mayor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pentictonwesternnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trudope could solve his lack of 2nd shots for Canadians...Give each another CERB check & let em drive down to the Big Apple


We'd go to States for the second dose even though we didn't receive anything AT ALL  Just paying taxes .

P.S. I'm temporarily back, as james aka Moderator 2 keep banning me for no ANY reason because I don't fit in his Liberal agenda LOL ... Typical Liberal hypocrisy !


----------



## gibor365

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-ontario-may-5-2021-vaccine-update-1.6014523


_Ontario is now on track to administer first doses of COVID-19 vaccines to 65 per cent of adults by the end of May, provincial health officials said Wednesday.

As of Tuesday evening, about 43 per cent of Ontarians aged 18 and older had received at least one shot._
So, in hot-spots (where about 75% new cases ) there should be about 60% who got vaccine...practically everyone who wanted already got it, even my19 y.o. relatives!
Thus, this stay-at-home lockdowns doesn't make any sense at all! Stop hysteria! *Lift lockdowns! Let people live!*


----------



## :) lonewolf

gibor365 said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-ontario-may-5-2021-vaccine-update-1.6014523
> 
> 
> 
> Thus, this stay-at-home lockdowns doesn't make any sense at all! Stop hysteria! *Lift lockdowns! Let people live!*


Gibor thanks for seeing & speaking the truth, not memorizing & repeating like a sheep.

Without the fake Conjob emergency the fake vaccines that are not vaccines would not be able to bypass proper testing. Moderna was never into vaccines they were always into experimenting with Gene therapy which they are now saying is a vaccine.

Why do you think there are all the false positive tests & no one dies of a heart attack anymore & only die of Covid which is the new miracle cure for the flu & other causes of death?

My friends tenant told me her mother who is living in India. Her mothers doctor told her mother not to come into the clinic to see him or else she would get vaccinated. He told her he would drop by her house to see her to avoid being vaccinated.

On Martin Armstrong blog he has 2 different video of the people in India attacking the Nazi vaccinators as the deaths are happening to those that are being vaccinated & not from Covid. Certain populations are more likely to be targeted with the death shot.

Do not believe the conspiracy theorists that say masks, lock downs save lives & the vaccines are vaccines

Do the sheep not realize oxygen not masks & exercise & fresh air not lock downs are the way to health.

Anyone that has been vaccinated your brain washing has been complete


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Also with regards to lockdowns it wasn't until they banned selling of non-essential goods here that the number of in-store shoppers dropped substantially and people finally started to stay home. These types of restrictions don't show up in that data, it's not even used.


Similar here, lines are way faster.


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> We'd go to States for the second dose even though we didn't receive anything AT ALL  Just paying taxes .
> 
> P.S. I'm temporarily back, as james aka Moderator 2 keep banning me for no ANY reason because I don't fit in his Liberal agenda LOL ... Typical Liberal hypocrisy !


 ... OMG, the anti-Liberal/political hysterics are back and why is this crap in a "vaccine" thread?

Work for the mods ...


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-ontario-may-5-2021-vaccine-update-1.6014523
> 
> 
> _Ontario is now on track to administer first doses of COVID-19 vaccines to 65 per cent of adults by the end of May, provincial health officials said Wednesday.
> 
> As of Tuesday evening, about 43 per cent of Ontarians aged 18 and older had received at least one shot._
> So, in hot-spots (where about 75% new cases ) there should be about 60% who got vaccine...practically everyone who wanted already got it, even my19 y.o. relatives!
> Thus, this stay-at-home lockdowns doesn't make any sense at all! Stop hysteria! *Lift lockdowns! Let people live!*


65% of adults, which is less than 50% of the population isn't enough to stop the spread.
Also it takes 2-3 weeks before the vaccine is very effective anyway.

We're gonna be until june/july until vaccination is the driver for opening up.
Ontario is still 3k new cases/day.

I know a lot of people who haven't been able to get a vaccine yet.


----------



## Spudd

Just to clarify, people are still dying of heart disease. Even more in 2020 than in previous years.


----------



## MrMatt

Spudd said:


> Just to clarify, people are still dying of heart disease. Even more in 2020 than in previous years.
> 
> View attachment 21648


Heart diesease is on a long term upward trend, we have dramatically improved care, but Heart Diesease and Cancer are the two big "gonna get ya" ones out there.

I think an important note is that COVID19 is that it is lower because only a fraction of the population got it, if everyone got it, it would likely have been the number 1 killer last year.

On a good note, I'm glad to see that the US suicide rate didn't spike last year.


----------



## andrewf

Spudd said:


> Just to clarify, people are still dying of heart disease. Even more in 2020 than in previous years.
> 
> View attachment 21648


Why let facts get in the way of your paranoid conspiracy theories?


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> 65% of adults, which is less than 50% of the population isn't enough to stop the spread.
> Also it takes 2-3 weeks before the vaccine is very effective anyway.
> 
> We're gonna be until june/july until vaccination is the driver for opening up.
> Ontario is still 3k new cases/day.
> 
> I know a lot of people who haven't been able to get a vaccine yet.


COVID was probably close to leading cause of death in the US for the 12 months April 2020 to March 2021.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> On a good note, I'm glad to see that the US suicide rate didn't spike last year.


Ya, it actually dropped compared to the previous 3 years.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> 65% of adults, which is less than 50% of the population isn't enough to stop the spread.
> Also it takes 2-3 weeks before the vaccine is very effective anyway.
> 
> We're gonna be until june/july until vaccination is the driver for opening up.
> Ontario is still 3k new cases/day.
> 
> I know a lot of people who haven't been able to get a vaccine yet.


Texas lifted all restrictions when less than 40% got even 1st dose and their stats greatly approved.
I personally don't know anyone 18+ in GTA who wasn't able to get vaccine. But I know a lot of people who just doesn't want to be vaccinated ... maybe this is the reason 3K new cases/day?


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Texas lifted all restrictions when less than 40% got even 1st dose and their stats greatly approved.
> I personally don't know anyone 18+ in GTA who wasn't able to get vaccine. But I know a lot of people who just doesn't want to be vaccinated ... maybe this is the reason 3K new cases/day?


I know some who don't want to be vaccinated, but I also know many who can't get a shot yet.

It's important to note that Texas is culturally different, and it matters which 40% got the shot.


Also it takes 2-3 weeks for the vaccine to become effective, many people are still in that window.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Texas lifted all restrictions when less than 40% got even 1st dose and their stats greatly approved.
> I personally don't know anyone 18+ in GTA who wasn't able to get vaccine. But I know a lot of people who just doesn't want to be vaccinated ... maybe this is the reason 3K new cases/day?


I was unable to book one until this week.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> I was unable to book one until this week.


Yeah, just because they don't know anyone who can't get a shot doesnt' mean there isnt' anyone who can't get one.

Absence of data is not data of absence.

ie just because there is no data on something doesn't mean that is evidence (data) that there is nothing.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> I know some who don't want to be vaccinated, but I also know many who can't get a shot yet.
> 
> It's important to note that Texas is culturally different, and it matters which 40% got the shot.
> 
> 
> Also it takes 2-3 weeks for the vaccine to become effective, many people are still in that window.


not some much culturally. A fair number of experts figure 30% of Texans had covid and they have a fairly strong immunity. 40 % fully vaccinated plus the other 30% gets to a significant level.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> I was unable to book one until this week.


Apparently you don't live in hot zone..... In any case, you got it this week! I don't see any reason lockdowns aren't lifted on Monday...
Just logically, if we got vaccine 2-3 weeks ago and my cousin family too, why we cannot visit them as per stay-at-home order?!


----------



## gibor365

zinfit said:


> not some much culturally. A fair number of experts figure 30% of Texans had covid and they have a fairly strong immunity. 40 % fully vaccinated plus the other 30% gets to a significant level.


And in Ontario hot zones 60%+ got vaccinated plus 10%+ had Covid already, so we're at around 70%


----------



## andrewf

^ Evidence? I don't think Peel is at 60%.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Apparently you don't live in hot zone..... In any case, you got it this week! I don't see any reason lockdowns aren't lifted on Monday...
> Just logically, if we got vaccine 2-3 weeks ago and my cousin family too, why we cannot visit them as per stay-at-home order?!


I do live in a hot zone. There were no open appointments in Peel for my particular criteria (18+).

I don't have an appointment until May 20, which means it is early June before I have any protection from infection.

gibor, I don't care about your ranting and raving. By all means, carry on. I just will pay it no heed.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> I do live in a hot zone. There were no open appointments in Peel for my particular criteria (18+).
> 
> I don't have an appointment until May 20, which means it is early June before I have any protection from infection.
> 
> gibor, I don't care about your ranting and raving. By all means, carry on. I just will pay it no heed.


So, maybe you have a problem with web  ... My 25 y.o. son got Pfizer this Thu, my cousin 19 y.o. got it last week, my daughter is getting it this Sunday (she could've get earlier, but i told her to wait a bit as she had Covid), I got my Apr 19 ....or maybe you younger than 18 that you weren't able to book earlier?!

In any case, we never followed stupid government orders and not going to follow it now


----------



## andrewf

To be fair, I haven't been trying very hard to get a vaccination until it was reduced to 18+ in hotzones. Regardless, we'll let the grownups who understand public health advise what should be done, and your boy Doug will make the decisions.


----------



## zinfit

zinfit said:


> not some much culturally. A fair number of experts figure 30% of Texans had covid and they have a fairly strong immunity. 40 % fully vaccinated plus the other 30% gets to a significant level.


I should point out the 40% in Texas is basically a 2 shot dose. The 2 shot dose is much better than a one shot dose. The Houston Methodist study makes that abundantly clear,. Some of the comparisons in Canada are talking a single dose and a fair bit of that is Astrezenca.


----------



## s1231

Spudd said:


> Just to clarify, people are still dying of heart disease. Even more in 2020 than in previous years.
> 
> View attachment 21648


Canada is doing ok compare with USA, Mexico, major Europe at this moment.
Let's see calm down.
(edited--- removed ? - I'm checking the data more carefully.)

The stresses ( fear, anger etc.) are consuming a lot of oxygen + disrupts the immune system. Make sure find some own way to manage well the stresses.

580,064 - 345,323= 234,741 ( USA covid death Jan - May 7 2021 ? )

Jan.9 2021 - 152.86, Feb 7 - 102.78, April 10 - 33.14, May 2 - 45.57 (Canada's daily death)
---
Country : BRA~GBR~ZAF~CAN~ISR~IND~USA~MEX
 & Europe data:









COVID-19 Data Explorer


Research and data to make progress against the world’s largest problems




ourworldindata.org




( data record: May 7 2021)
Total deaths:








Population:









Total deaths per 1M:


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> To be fair, I haven't been trying very hard to get a vaccination until it was reduced to 18+ in hotzones. Regardless, we'll let the grownups who understand public health advise what should be done, and your boy Doug will make the decisions.


So, you should've try harder if you wanted to get one  My point was that everyone who wanted - got it 
"public health " may advise, but we gonna do what we prefer .... for example, they are giving every year advise to get flu shot, we never got any and never got flu in 22 years we live here.
Doug failed his voters (I can see it on social media), on the other hand, what choice we had?! Hysterical lunatic Andrea Horwart from socialist party?!


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> So, you should've try harder if you wanted to get one  My point was that everyone who wanted - got it
> "public health " may advise, but we gonna do what we prefer .... for example, they are giving every year advise to get flu shot, we never got any and never got flu in 22 years we live here.
> Doug failed his voters (I can see it on social media), on the other hand, what choice we had?! Hysterical lunatic Andrea Horwart from socialist party?!


I wasn't eligible. I was under 40 with no health problems and not essential worker. I'm not sure how your kids got vaccinated. Pop up clinic was my only option to get vaccinated, and I work. I can't drop everything to chase a vaccine dose when I was going to get one anyway shortly.

If you want to gamble with your life and the life of your family and friends, go ahead and ignore the public health advice. I will chin up and not act like a child throwing a tantrum and get vaccinated and deal with a few more weeks of inconvenience.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> I wasn't eligible. I was under 40 with no health problems and not essential worker. I'm not sure how your kids got vaccinated. Pop up clinic was my only option to get vaccinated, and I work. I can't drop everything to chase a vaccine dose when I was going to get one anyway shortly.
> 
> *If you want to gamble with your life and the life of your family and friends, go ahead and ignore the public health advice*. I will chin up and not act like a child throwing a tantrum and get vaccinated and deal with a few more weeks of inconvenience.


 ... only difference is such hypocrites are okay with putting others (non-related) at risk. 

The "mystery" of a"never-had-a-flu-in-my-life" tells me these are the "silent carriers" aka "asymptotic infectors".


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> My point was that everyone who wanted - got it


That is simply not true.
I know many people who still haven't been able to get a shot.

But go ahead, support your claim that everyone got it.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> I wasn't eligible. I was under 40 with no health problems and not essential worker. I'm not sure how your kids got vaccinated. Pop up clinic was my only option to get vaccinated, and I work. I can't drop everything to chase a vaccine dose when I was going to get one anyway shortly.
> 
> If you want to gamble with your life and the life of your family and friends, go ahead and ignore the public health advice. I will chin up and not act like a child throwing a tantrum and get vaccinated and deal with a few more weeks of inconvenience.


They just googled by themselves and booked appointments (and they are below 25 and also work). And they told me that there were a plenty of spots available.
If you _can't drop everything to chase a vaccine, _you _gamble with your life _more than us!
Generally, whole life is a gamble.... Driving on our roads is even a bigger gamble.
Freq "public health advice" doesn't make any sense and usually it's politically driven (just look at Texas and Cali). 
Esp now, explain me while we cannot drive and visit our family (as per "public health advice") as all of us got vaccines?!


----------



## :) lonewolf

I strongly recommend people do a little research on all the long, long list of documented crimes Pfizer has committed over the years. Pfizer has been fined in the past for bribing doctors. Something does not seam right when the poliTICKS has granted them immunity with their experimental drugs. Moderna has never made a vaccine they are into Gene therapy. Gates who is on record on Ted talk video saying if they do a good job with the vaccines they can reduce the population by 10 - 15%. The Ted talk is regards to lowering C02.

By declaring an emergency drug companies can bypass testing. No deaths by flu, High number of false positive test should smell funny to everyone.

Melinda Gates is on video sitting next to Gates saying they invest in politics, tech, media & vaccines.

The media is scaring everyone to death while promoting the vaccine, Gates has a monopoly on world health.

When I do the math & add everything up I do not trust the drug pushers.

Trust in your own thinking & math not the government & media.


----------



## sags

I trust the doctors and nurses who work in the ICU units and tell people what they are experiencing every single day.

No politics involved. Just them telling us......what is going on behind the scenes in the hospitals.

Have you seen what a COVID destoyed lung looks like ? Have you seen the COVID X-rays ?

From what I have read.....COVID is a terrible way to die.

I really don't need any more than that to get a vaccination.


----------



## damian13ster

I m going to get vaccinated too.
Not signing up on monday though. Will wait until the 2nd dose can be given within 28 days.
I will trust scientists who developed the vaccine and will not use it off-label based on politics.

Am hopeful that decision to follow the manufacturer specification on the use of the vaccine will come soon seeing there is enough doses already to start vaccinating 12 year olds.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> They just googled by themselves and booked appointments (and they are below 25 and also work). And they told me that there were a plenty of spots available.
> If you _can't drop everything to chase a vaccine, _you _gamble with your life _more than us!
> Generally, whole life is a gamble.... Driving on our roads is even a bigger gamble.
> Freq "public health advice" doesn't make any sense and usually it's politically driven (just look at Texas and Cali).
> Esp now, explain me while we cannot drive and visit our family (as per "public health advice") as all of us got vaccines?!


I'm not gambling with my life, I'm following the distancing advice. You're the one saying that you are ignoring it. My big risk is going to the grocery store every 10 days or so.

You aren't fully vaccinated, the public health advice is to wait after being fully vaccinated. As I have seen, the Pfizer vaccine only reduces risk of infection by 30% after 1 dose for the UK variant which is now dominant in Ontario.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> I m going to get vaccinated too.
> Not signing up on monday though. Will wait until the 2nd dose can be given within 28 days.
> I will trust scientists who developed the vaccine and will not use it off-label based on politics.
> 
> Am hopeful that decision to follow the manufacturer specification on the use of the vaccine will come soon seeing there is enough doses already to start vaccinating 12 year olds.


Why?
I got AZ, and data coming out suggests 3 months is good.








AstraZeneca vaccine: 3-month dosage interval might be preferable


A new analysis shows that a 3-month interval between doses of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine might be better than a shorter interval.




www.medicalnewstoday.com


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Why?
> I got AZ, and data coming out suggests 3 months is good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AstraZeneca vaccine: 3-month dosage interval might be preferable
> 
> 
> A new analysis shows that a 3-month interval between doses of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine might be better than a shorter interval.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medicalnewstoday.com


a) no guarantee you will get AZ
b) as far as I am aware, 4 months is more than 12 weeks
c) I am not going to get AZ anyway. Less efficiency and less safety for people with my profile
d) Still off-label.

Will simply wait for governments to start using vaccines in accordance with their labels. Nothing wrong with that at all. 
Scientists who developed the vaccine > government recommendation.


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> As I have seen, the Pfizer vaccine only reduces risk of infection by 30% after 1 dose for the UK variant which is now dominant in Ontario.


I've seen a few noted studies, like the Qatar one that they are drawing some numbers from that don't seem to provide a complete picture. I didn't go into detail yet but one thing I found odd was table comparison. They show data for comparison on "after one dose" and "≥14 days after second dose". I would be interested in the results of "≥14 days after one dose" as everyone knows it takes time for the body to build a response.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Will simply wait for governments to start using vaccines in accordance with their labels. Nothing wrong with that at all.
> Scientists who developed the vaccine > government recommendation.


Yup, everyone needs to make their own judgement call on that. Keep in mind that the makers can't suggest other options as they can only back what their protocols used in the clinical trial data showed. They don't do a number of "what if" situations, it's all very controlled.

So one needs to choose, at least some protection now and more later or wait to get the known protection when shots can be done at the clinical trial separation. If one has very minimal (and safe) contacts with the real world then waiting may not be a bad idea. If one is dealing with the public often then likely the best choice is to get some form of protection right away.


----------



## like_to_retire

damian13ster said:


> Am hopeful that decision to follow the manufacturer specification on the use of the vaccine will come soon seeing there is enough doses already to start vaccinating 12 year olds.


Yeah, don't hold your breath on that wish. I would recommend taking any vaccine right away (to simply protect yourself today), and then look into getting 2 shots that align with the manufacturer's recommendations. 

This would be your best bet. Waiting to take your first shot so that it aligned with your assessment of the situation doesn't serve your mortality at all. Find a way to get that first shot, regardless of vaccine type. Then, pretend you never had a first shot and find a way to get your 2 shots.

ltr


----------



## Money172375

Isn’t AZ’s instruction to have a second dose up to 4 months after? I think it’s the only one that had that timeframe from its inception.


----------



## like_to_retire

Money172375 said:


> Isn’t AZ’s instruction to have a second dose up to 4 months after? I think it’s the only one that had that timeframe from its inception.


No, 12 weeks max for Astrazeneca and 21 days for Pfizer.

ltr


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> I m going to get vaccinated too.
> Not signing up on monday though. Will wait until the 2nd dose can be given within 28 days.
> I will trust scientists who developed the vaccine and will not use it off-label based on politics.
> 
> Am hopeful that decision to follow the manufacturer specification on the use of the vaccine will come soon seeing there is enough doses already to start vaccinating 12 year olds.


Some of my friends have exactly same reason by not taking 1st dose now


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> I'm not gambling with my life, I'm following the distancing advice. You're the one saying that you are ignoring it.* My big risk is going to the grocery store every 10 days or so.*
> 
> You aren't fully vaccinated, the public health advice is to wait after being fully vaccinated. As I have seen, the Pfizer vaccine only reduces risk of infection by 30% after 1 dose for the UK variant which is now dominant in Ontario.


Everyone makes his own decisions  , o personally going to grocery stores much more frequently than pre-Covid, every week i;m going on average 4 times to supermarkets and usually visit 2-3 stores. 
There are more changes to get killed in car accident than from Covid and after 1st dose there are more chances to get killed by lightening LOL


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> There are more changes to get killed in car accident than from Covid and after 1st dose there are more chances to get killed by lightening LOL


Ahhh, you gotta like these made up stats gibor does, lol.


----------



## zinfit

gibor365 said:


> Everyone makes his own decisions  , o personally going to grocery stores much more frequently than pre-Covid, every week i;m going on average 4 times to supermarkets and usually visit 2-3 stores.
> There are more changes to get killed in car accident than from Covid and after 1st dose there are more chances to get killed by lightening LOL


Might be true if you have the full Pfizer vaccination. Not the case with AZ . It"s pretty useless against the SA variant.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Dosing and Schedule
The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is administered intramuscularly as a series of two doses (0.3 mL each) *3 weeks apart.*
There are no data available on the interchangeability of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine with other COVID-19 vaccines to complete the vaccination series. Individuals who have received one dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine should receive a second dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine to complete the vaccination series.


----------



## OptsyEagle

OK. So you guys forced me to bring back the Pfizer chart. The questions above are: Do we need the 2nd dose and if so, when is it required?

This chart the actual results from the Pfizer vaccine trials. As you can see, they administered 1 dose on the 1st day then monitored these people and then hit them again with a 2nd dose on the 21st day. Now, can anyone see a spike in effectiveness, in and around that 2nd dose on the 21st day? Even 14 days after that day (which is a meaningless date people seem to be using for the beginning of protection. It actually happens in a few days after the 1st dose)? The answer to the question of improved effectiveness with the 2nd dose is no. If it is there it is almost insignificant to your overall protection acquired from the 1st vaccine dose.

What this chart tells you is that this vaccine starts becoming effective in 12 days and stays just as effective as that, even when they are hit with a 2nd dose. The 2nd dose has virtually no noticeable effect. It may prolong immunity, but we don't even know that, and common sense would say that the longer you wait to get your 2nd dose the longer your immunity will be.

By the way, all the vaccines work this way, as do previous infections. Take your pick of either vaccine, and for those people who decide not to vaccinate, they will be picking infection, and be confident that your extremely well protected from covid-19 soon after. All the vaccines are the same. I think I might have been the first to point out that the differences in efficacies are really the result of the trials happening at different times in different places, but you now have many experts telling you the very same thing. Stop worrying about this nonsense of which is the more effective vaccine and when you should get your 2nd dose and just vaccinate now and go on with your life. It is as easy as that.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

OptsyEagle said:


> Do we need the 2nd dose and if so, when is it required?


According to the vaccine manufacture label, The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is administered intramuscularly as a series of two doses (0.3 mL each) 3 weeks apart.
I really don’t see any point of arguing.
As was said before. The best strategy would be to wait until second shot is offered to your age group and go ahead and book your first shot. This way you can get your second shot in three weeks.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> OK. So you guys forced me to bring back the Pfizer chart. The questions above are: Do we need the 2nd dose and if so, when is it required?
> 
> Now, can anyone see a spike in effectiveness, in and around that 2nd dose on the 21st day?


But every time I have read any paper on how the 1st and 2nd dose work, they don't talk so much about any 'spike in effectiveness', rather they seem to make a point that the 2nd dose locks in the memory and that the 1st shot is short lived.
Below is an article that says this very thing, and one of many times I've read this. I'm concerned the ill advised extended delay between the 1st and 2nd dose in Canada is a very bad idea.

_3 to 4 weeks later.
Both of the mRNA vaccines require two shots: three weeks later for the Pfizer vaccine and four weeks for Moderna. During that waiting period, “hopefully, your B cells are generating good plasma cells and making neutralizing antibodies,” says Moore. Neutralizing antibodies block the coronavirus from entering your cells and making you sick. But these can be relatively short-lived. Hence the need for the second dose which can help generate longer-lived immune cells that can respond to the spike protein.

“Because you already have antibodies on-board from the first dose, you’re going to get a little bit more robust immune response the second time,” Moore says. “At the same time, you are boosting the immune response to be bigger, better and faster and really locking in the memory of it.”_


ltr


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Isn’t AZ’s instruction to have a second dose up to 4 months after? I think it’s the only one that had that timeframe from its inception.


I think so, it's important to note that AZ is a more traditional type of vaccine.

The reality is we're going to need boosters anyway.
I say grab what you can now, 1 dose of any of the vaccines basically eliminates death, and dramatically reduces hospitalization, and should reduce spread, at least for a few months.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*States turning down Covid-19 vaccine doses as US demand declines








States turning down Covid-19 vaccine doses as US demand declines


Reduced demand comes as Joe Biden has announced a plan to vaccinate 70% of US adults by the Fourth of July




www.theguardian.com




*


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> According to the vaccine manufacture label, The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is administered intramuscularly as a series of two doses (0.3 mL each) 3 weeks apart.
> I really don’t see any point of arguing.
> As was said before. The best strategy would be to wait until second shot is offered to your age group and go ahead and book your first shot. This way you can get your second shot in three weeks.


You have a point! For example when you are doing 3 doses Twinrix (Hepatitis) vaccine , you are doing it as per manufacturer schedule, and not as per political reasons of NACI delaying it from 3 weeks to 4 months


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> *States turning down Covid-19 vaccine doses as US demand declines
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> States turning down Covid-19 vaccine doses as US demand declines
> 
> 
> Reduced demand comes as Joe Biden has announced a plan to vaccinate 70% of US adults by the Fourth of July
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


We gonna have exactly same situation in Canada pretty soon , then hopefully ppl gonna get 2nd shot sooner


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> But every time I have read any paper on how the 1st and 2nd dose work, they don't talk so much about any 'spike in effectiveness', rather they seem to make a point that the 2nd dose locks in the memory and that the 1st shot is short lived.
> Below is an article that says this very thing, and one of many times I've read this. I'm concerned the ill advised extended delay between the 1st and 2nd dose in Canada is a very bad idea.
> 
> _3 to 4 weeks later.
> Both of the mRNA vaccines require two shots: three weeks later for the Pfizer vaccine and four weeks for Moderna. During that waiting period, “hopefully, your B cells are generating good plasma cells and making neutralizing antibodies,” says Moore. Neutralizing antibodies block the coronavirus from entering your cells and making you sick. But these can be relatively short-lived. Hence the need for the second dose which can help generate longer-lived immune cells that can respond to the spike protein.
> 
> “Because you already have antibodies on-board from the first dose, you’re going to get a little bit more robust immune response the second time,” Moore says. “At the same time, you are boosting the immune response to be bigger, better and faster and really locking in the memory of it.”_
> 
> 
> ltr


and why would you trust what this guy says. "hopefully your B cells are generating good plasma cells...." 

Sounds like a guy guessing at facts to me. Anyway, real world data is showing strong efficacy with 1 dose. Will 2 be better? I doubt it will hurt, but to wait to get the 1st is quite the bet. Many will win that bet, with probably only a few that will have it go down as the biggest mistake they ever made in their entire lives, with a few of those never getting a chance to ever make a bigger one again.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> and why would you trust what this guy says. "hopefully your B cells are generating good plasma cells...."
> 
> Sounds like a guy guessing at facts to me. Anyway, real world data is showing strong efficacy with 1 dose. Will 2 be better? I doubt it will hurt, but to wait to get the 1st is quite the bet. Many will win that bet, with probably only a few that will have it go down as the biggest mistake they ever made in their entire lives, with a few of those never getting a chance to ever make a bigger one again.


Sigh.....

ltr


----------



## Ukrainiandude

“And one of the things that we are learning is that the AstraZeneca vaccines do seem to have a stronger cell immunity response — those cells that help us have a long-term memory. So it may be an advantage to have one of each of the types of vaccines that we have available now.”
Pfizer Corporate Affairs Director Christina Antoniou told CP24 that their position remains that the vaccine doses must be granted 21 days apart for maximum efficacy.
“We do not have any Pfizer-led data regarding a single-dose approach and our current research is specific to two doses 21-days apart. Our position has not changed and the statement we posted on March 23 remains valid.”
The study found one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was only 17 per cent effective in preventing infection by B.1.351.
It was found to be zero per cent effective in preventing hospitalization or death due to B.1.351.
Following the outcomes of nearly 40,000 people tested for COVID-19 in Qatar, the study published in the New England Journal of Medicine on Wednesday evening found one shot of the Pfizer jab was only 29.5 per cent effective in preventing infection, asymptomatic or otherwise.

One shot of Pfizer was found to be 54.5 per cent effective in preventing “severe, critical or fatal” outcomes due to infection by the B.1.1.7 variant, which is now pervasive in Ontario.

But author Dr. Laith Jamal Abu-Raddad told CP24 on Thursday that Qatari health officials have followed Pfizer’s dosing direction, giving out second doses no more than 21 days after the first in most instances.

“The one-dose estimate we provided is strictly the efficacy in the first three weeks immediately after the first dose and it should not be interpreted to mean the eventual efficacy after three or more weeks of the first dose,” he said. “We could not determine the latter exactly, as in our population everyone got the second dose at three weeks after the first dose.”


----------



## sags

All the conflicting data makes me wonder if the vaccines will work at all.


----------



## Eder

I think Trudope made another mistake... https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2104974


The study shows that Pfizer’s effectiveness against the British and South African variants are minimal after only one dose (29 per cent and 16.9 per cent, respectively), but become 89.5 per cent and 75 per cent effective, 14 days after the second dose.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Eder said:


> Trudope


Who’s that?


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> We gonna have exactly same situation in Canada pretty soon , then hopefully ppl gonna get 2nd shot sooner


I think that's likely. A lot of the angst about waiting 16 weeks is probably going to be moot for many people, it will be a lot shorter.


----------



## Eder

You’re no safer from COVID-19 social distancing at 6 or 60 feet, study says


Social distancing inside at 60 feet is no safer than at 6 feet — and “exposure time” indoors is actually far more important, according to a new study from the Massachusetts Institute of Techn…




nypost.com





“The distancing isn’t helping you that much and it’s also giving you a false sense of security because you’re as safe at 6 feet as you are at 60 feet if you’re indoors,” MIT engineering professor Martin Bazant, who authored the study, told CNBC.

It explains why the states with mandatory protocols aren't doing better than those without imo.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> You’re no safer from COVID-19 social distancing at 6 or 60 feet, study says
> 
> 
> Social distancing inside at 60 feet is no safer than at 6 feet — and “exposure time” indoors is actually far more important, according to a new study from the Massachusetts Institute of Techn…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “The distancing isn’t helping you that much and it’s also giving you a false sense of security because you’re as safe at 6 feet as you are at 60 feet if you’re indoors,” MIT engineering professor Martin Bazant, who authored the study, told CNBC.
> 
> It explains why the states with mandatory protocols aren't doing better than those without imo.


From the beginning "6 feet rule" seems fishy to me


----------



## gibor365

*Why the world’s most vaccinated country is seeing an unprecedented spike in coronavirus cases*

_The Seychelles stands as the most vaccinated nation on Earth, with more than 60 percent of its population fully vaccinated, more than other vaccine giants such as Israel and Britain, and almost twice the United States’ rate of vaccination.

But that success has been undermined this week as the Seychelles has found itself with its largest number of new coronavirus cases per capita, and has been forced to reinstate a number of restrictions.
Though the number of new cases is relatively low — peaking at an average of *just over 100 new cases a day — they are a big deal in a country with a population of less than 100,000*. *On a per capita basis, the Seychelles outbreak is worse than India’s raging surge. 


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/05/06/seychelles-vaccines-covid-cases/


*_
On the other hand, Israel with similar vaccination rate has lately less than 30 daily cases for 9M+ country.
Is it only because Seychelles used only Chinese vaccines and AZ vs Israel Pfizer and Moderna?


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> All the conflicting data makes me wonder if the vaccines will work at all.


I think it's pretty clear that the vaccines work. There is a lot of conflicting data because it's a dynamic situation: the variants are popping up, and they are hard to identify (we often don't know which variants are circulating).

It's a moving target kind of situation. A very dynamic situation, and proper studies can't be done this fast. Everyone is dealing with partial information.

But big picture, the vaccines clearly help the situation. Here's the chart of active COVID cases in Israel:


----------



## james4beach

I showed the chart of Israel's COVID cases above, but there is also a new article in The Lancet you might want to check out: COVID-19 vaccine impact in Israel and a way out of the pandemic

The author says that the vaccine rollout in Israel provides a way to study the effectiveness and impact of vaccination at the national scale.

Israel saw a rapid decline in COVID cases across all age groups, despite easing restrictions. Measurements of effectiveness were above the 90% mark and consistent with the Phase III clinical trials of the BioNTech (Pfizer) vaccine.

The B.1.1.7 (UK) variant was the most active strain in Israel, so we know that this vaccine was effective against this variant. We don't know effectiveness against other variants.

*The author also notes that the Canadian approach may be a viable alternate way to tackle the pandemic when there isn't enough supply: "One such approach is deferring the second dose to accelerate and maximise coverage of the first dose in the population."*


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> *The author also notes that the Canadian approach may be a viable alternate way to tackle the pandemic when there isn't enough supply: "One such approach is deferring the second dose to accelerate and maximise coverage of the first dose in the population."*


I know an elderly couple that was vaccinated (I think only 1 shot) and got COVID.
They were almost completely bedridden for several days, and nearly died... 
They would have likely died without the vaccine.

They've said it was the sickest they've ever been.

I was very strongly against the 1 shot regimen, now I think it might be a pretty good idea. The latest data shows 12 weeks might actually be better timing for AZ.


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> From the beginning "6 feet rule" seems fishy to me


 ... it is and so is 60 feet which means you have to "stay away" from "such people" altogether.


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> On the other hand, Israel with similar vaccination rate has lately less than 30 daily cases for 9M+ country.
> Is it only because Seychelles used only Chinese vaccines and AZ vs Israel Pfizer and Moderna?


It could be the harsh travel restrictions Israel has.
Most countries with few cases heavily restricted travel into their country.


----------



## sags

I am skeptical of the data coming out of Israel for several reasons.

First, they signed a deal with Pfizer to become the study group of the vaccine, so there is a vested interest in reporting "good" numbers.

Second......Israel only vaccinated those they consider Israeli "citizens".

They didn't vaccinate the Palestinians or others living in Israel......as GIbor noted in a post that they are not considered "citizens" of Israel.

Third.......Netanyahu is facing criminal charges and an election and is being seriously challenged. He needs "good" numbers for political reasons.

What is the rate of infection among everyone living in Israel......defined as "citizens" or not ? I suspect it is higher than is being reported.

If a Palestinian is in hospital for COVID.........do they count in the numbers ?

By comparison, Canada had outbreaks among migrant workers from foreign countries. Did we include them in our overall numbers ?

From what I recall.......I believe we did, at least locally.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I am skeptical of the data coming out of Israel for several reasons.


Ok


> First, they signed a deal with Pfizer to become the study group of the vaccine, so there is a vested interest in reporting "good" numbers.


Yes there are incentives


> Second......Israel only vaccinated those they consider Israeli "citizens".


prioritizing citizens is just fine. 
Most countries are doing this. Ontario required health cards to prove eligibility at least for a time.
Myself I think that citizens should be front of line for all government benefits and services.




> They didn't vaccinate the Palestinians or others living in Israel......as GIbor noted in a post that they are not considered "citizens" of Israel.


If they're not citizens, then they're not citizens. Why do you keep putting quotes?
Do you realize citizen actually has a legal definition?


> Third.......Netanyahu is facing criminal charges and an election and is being seriously challenged. He needs "good" numbers for political reasons.
> 
> What is the rate of infection among everyone living in Israel......defined as "citizens" or not ? I suspect it is higher than is being reported.


Any basis for this?
Or is it racist/antisemitic trolling?


> If a Palestinian is in hospital for COVID.........do they count in the numbers ?
> 
> By comparison, Canada had outbreaks among migrant workers from foreign countries. Did we include them in our overall numbers ?


We likely counted them in case numbers. 
But I don't think we count based on citizenship.
Though I don't think we particularly care about that, Canadians seem to have very little respect for citizenship as a concept. Other cultures care about citizenship a lot more. Actually other cultures are singificnatly more concerned with ethnicity and race than Canadians in general.
It took me a long time to understand a coworker who was "Hungarian from Germany". Many cultures put ethnic identity very high on their list of important things, it kind of contradicts Canadian liberal values IMO.



> From what I recall.......I believe we did, at least locally.


----------



## sags

The numbers out of Gaza and the West Bank may tell the full story.









Virus surge in crowded Gaza threatens to overwhelm hospitals


More than a year into the coronavirus pandemic, some of the worst fears are coming true in the crowded Gaza Strip: A sudden surge in infections and deaths is threatening to overwhelm hospitals weakened by years of conflict and border closures.




www.ctvnews.ca









__





Feature: Mounting COVID-19 infections in West Bank overburden Palestinian health system - Xinhua | English.news.cn






www.xinhuanet.com


----------



## sags

As far as I know.....in Canada we count everyone in the numbers. Citizens, visitors, migrant workers, permanent residents, foreign students......

I think that if we start eliminating groups who aren't full Canadian citizens our numbers would improve, but that is nothing more than sleight of hand.

The hospitals would still be busy and people would still be sick and dying.

In our local area there were large outbreaks among migrant workers on farms and in our University dormitories that house students from all over the world.

Did we count those people in our numbers ?


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The numbers out of Gaza and the West Bank may tell the full story.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Virus surge in crowded Gaza threatens to overwhelm hospitals
> 
> 
> More than a year into the coronavirus pandemic, some of the worst fears are coming true in the crowded Gaza Strip: A sudden surge in infections and deaths is threatening to overwhelm hospitals weakened by years of conflict and border closures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feature: Mounting COVID-19 infections in West Bank overburden Palestinian health system - Xinhua | English.news.cn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.xinhuanet.com


Maybe the Palestinian government should provide appropriate health care for their citizens?

They're claiming a crisis, yet they're not even using the vaccines they have.
"Al-Shakhra noted the ministry decided to store the AstraZeneca vaccine until the World Health Organization makes its final scientific decision on its safety."


The political situation in Israel is very complicated, but my view is that the Palestian situation is basically a mess, and has been for decades.
You have a poor population with a highly ineffective governance structure, of course they're going to have more problems.


----------



## sags

They should........but maybe we should also not take the numbers claimed by Israel as the gospel truth.

Remember the old saying......Lies, damn lies and statistics.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> They should........but maybe we should also not take the numbers claimed by Israel as the gospel truth.
> 
> Remember the old saying......Lies, damn lies and statistics.


Spoken like someone who doesn't understand math.


----------



## sags

Or someone who understands the reality that statistics are manipulated all the time.

But you avoided the question. Do we count non-citizens and Israel doesn't ?


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> From the beginning "6 feet rule" seems fishy to me


I took the 6 feet thing as more advice for outdoors. Indoors it was only applicable when it was thought to be droplets and not aerosols that spread it. Aerosols can completely fill a room, which indicates exposure time will determine the viral load you receive and risk of infection. Also, wearing masks reduces the number of aerosols you emit and gives some protection to inhaling them.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Or someone who understands the reality that statistics are manipulated all the time.


I disagree.
I think the statistics are fine. I think the interpretation is what is manipulated.

Yes, people will often set up the fact pattern to prove their case, that's why it's important to review the source material, and be aware of their biases.
It's also why I prefer to look at hard data.



> But you avoided the question. Do we count non-citizens and Israel doesn't ?


I think the situation for Palestinians in Israel wrt COVID is in part due to the political situation.

I think it is appropriate to consider Israeli and Palenstinian controlled areas separately. Many think that Israel and Palestine should actually be 2 separate countries anyway.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> Do we count non-citizens and Israel doesn't ?


The virus certainly includes them. 

If they don't vaccinate specific groups, but the virus has no issue with them, then whatever results Israel is recording will be understated to the results a society will have that does not discriminate against anyone.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

You should get your second shot as close to the recommended 3-week or 4-week interval as possible. However, your second dose may be given up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose, if necessary. You should not get the second dose early. There is currently limited information on the effectiveness of receiving your second shot earlier than recommended or later than 6 weeks after the first shot.








COVID-19 Vaccination


COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




www.cdc.gov





I have no idea how health Canada came up with their 16 weeks interval.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> You should get your second shot as close to the recommended 3-week or 4-week interval as possible. However, your second dose may be given up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose, if necessary. You should not get the second dose early. There is currently limited information on the effectiveness of receiving your second shot earlier than recommended or later than 6 weeks after the first shot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccination
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea how health Canada came up with their 16 weeks interval.


I think they were making an educated guess based on the extended interval trials that were going on at the time.
It's important to note that AZ shows very good results at 3 months.

To me the data is clearly showing that extended intervals, in light of the limited supply, is the right course for now.
If they can reduce it great, but the gamble seems to have been right.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> Ok
> 
> Yes there are incentives
> 
> prioritizing citizens is just fine.
> Most countries are doing this. Ontario required health cards to prove eligibility at least for a time.
> Myself I think that citizens should be front of line for all government benefits and services.
> 
> 
> 
> If they're not citizens, then they're not citizens. Why do you keep putting quotes?
> Do you realize citizen actually has a legal definition?
> 
> Any basis for this?
> *Or is it racist/antisemitic trolling?*
> 
> We likely counted them in case numbers.
> But I don't think we count based on citizenship.
> Though I don't think we particularly care about that, Canadians seem to have very little respect for citizenship as a concept. Other cultures care about citizenship a lot more. Actually other cultures are singificnatly more concerned with ethnicity and race than Canadians in general.
> It took me a long time to understand a coworker who was "Hungarian from Germany". Many cultures put ethnic identity very high on their list of important things, it kind of contradicts Canadian liberal values IMO.


Sure ! Racist/anti Semitic trolling is very popular among Trudeau cult!

Israel completely got out of Gaza in 2005, there are no Israeli Army or any Israeli citizens in Gaza.
btw, back in February *Israel confirms will vaccinate Palestinians with Israeli work permits (*_imho make sense)_ and from January* Israel supplies COVID-19 vaccines to Palestinians. *_(imho, doesn't make sense)_

*And what Israel sees from Palestinians?!*
Palestinians don't care about Covid...the only thing they care is to destroy Israel... currently they launching rockets to Israel, burning forests and executing terrorists attack! 

Now, look at Ontario, when you need not only Health card to get vaccine , but you HAVE TO LIVE is specific Postal code!



> What is the rate of infection among everyone living in Israel......defined as "citizens" or not ?


 Everyone who lives in Israel , include Arabs, Druze, Armenians etc ARE Israeli citizens (except foreign workers and small number African refugees)


----------



## gibor365

_



Third.......Netanyahu is facing criminal charges and an election and is being seriously challenged. He needs "good" numbers for political reasons.

Click to expand...

_Trudeau should've face criminal charges ... Canada also has election, however, unfortunately, Trudeau is not_ " being seriously challenged."_
As per sags logic, this is reason that Trudeau doesn't need "good: numbers and failed Canadians?!


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> You should get your second shot as close to the recommended 3-week or 4-week interval as possible. However, your second dose may be given up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose, if necessary. You should not get the second dose early. There is currently limited information on the effectiveness of receiving your second shot earlier than recommended or later than 6 weeks after the first shot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccination
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea how health Canada came up with their 16 weeks interval.


Just watch MP Rempel interview with Head of Canada immunization task force !
In the 1st question , Dr. Caroline Quach-Thanh admits that is not supply issue, they wouldn't be extending interval to 4 months.



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=827072717876387




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1370181814531325952


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Just watch MP Rempel interview with Head of Canada immunization task force !
> In the 1st question , Dr. Caroline Quach-Thanh admits that is not supply issue, they wouldn't be extending interval to 4 months.


I think everyone agrees if we had enough vaccine, we should have followed the recommendation.
But we didn't, and still don't. So we come up with the second best option.

The second best option is clearly everyone as fast as possible with 1 shot. For AZ it's a no brainer.
For others, we'll have to see, but partial protection for almost everyone now is going to save the most lives.


----------



## Eder

Theres lots of time next winter to stroll down to the pharmacy and grab a vaccine done properly, but for now Canada has no way out of this dark hole Trudeau has dug for us unless everyone goes & gets their 1st dose.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> I think everyone agrees if we had enough vaccine, we should have followed the recommendation.
> But we didn't, and still don't. So we come up with the second best option.
> 
> The second best option is clearly everyone as fast as possible with 1 shot. For AZ it's a no brainer.
> For others, we'll have to see, but partial protection for almost everyone now is going to save the most lives.


Maybe yes, maybe no .....we'll see... There is chance that people who got 1st dose of pfizer or Moderna, will start get Covid in masses after 2-3 months after 1st dose.
My uncle and aunt , who is 78 y.o. should wait 4 months for 2nd vaccine and their grandkids 19 y.o. already got 1st one 2 weeks ago. I'm not sure that this is right


----------



## zinfit

The UK had no new cases yesterday. Israel with a population twice that of Alberta reported 8 new cases yesterday. How much evidence does it take to convince the willy nilles and naysayers?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

zinfit said:


> The UK had no new cases yesterday. Israel with a population twice that of Alberta reported 8 new cases yesterday. How much evidence does it take to convince the willy nilles and naysayers?


Both countries I believe used the vaccines according to the vaccine manufacturer label. Population received two doses for the maximum protection. It’s better to have half population (esp. older people) 100% vaccinated than 100% of population with only single shot.


----------



## like_to_retire

gibor365 said:


> My uncle and aunt , who is 78 y.o. should wait 4 months for 2nd vaccine and their grandkids 19 y.o. already got 1st one 2 weeks ago. I'm not sure that this is right


Correct, no one knows what will happen, so in lieu of evidence regarding extending the wait time between doses, you defer to what we do know, and that's the manufacturer's recommendations. Then at least you'll have a portion of the population fully vaccinated rather than everyone half vaccinated with the possibility of no one safe after waiting 4 months.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Maybe yes, maybe no .....we'll see... There is chance that people who got 1st dose of pfizer or Moderna, will start get Covid in masses after 2-3 months after 1st dose.
> My uncle and aunt , who is 78 y.o. should wait 4 months for 2nd vaccine and their grandkids 19 y.o. already got 1st one 2 weeks ago. I'm not sure that this is right


Possible, but if most people have a shot, it should reduce the spread, which reduces peoples chances of getting it.

I think it's still a maybe, but early data suggests the vaccines, particularly AZ, are quite effective for some time after the first dose.

It's a bunch of trade offs with incomplete data.

Realistically I say give everyone 1 dose of AZ as soon as possible, then within 3-4 months, try to ensure they either finish the AZ dose, or give 2 shots of pfizer/moderna.

But hey, I'm not in charge


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> Correct, no one knows what will happen, so in lieu of evidence regarding extending the wait time between doses, you defer to what we do know, and that's the manufacturer's recommendations. Then at least you'll have a portion of the population fully vaccinated rather than everyone half vaccinated with the possibility of no one safe after waiting 4 months.
> 
> ltr


That's what I said, but with the data now coming out, and trying to stem the third wave, I think partial vaccinations was a good idea.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Both countries I believe used the vaccines according to the vaccine manufacturer label. Population received two doses for the maximum protection. *It’s better to have half population (esp. older people) 100% vaccinated than 100% of population with only single shot.*


 ... only if there is a plentiful supply and this is not the case. 

To begin with, someone in the Ottawa's Procurement Office doesn't seem to know how to do basic math despite having a business degree (aside from a PHD) with contractual agreements.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> That's what I said, but with the data now coming out....


Could you tell us about that?

ltr


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> I think they were making an educated guess based on the extended interval trials that were going on at the time.
> It's important to note that AZ shows very good results at 3 months.
> 
> To me the data is clearly showing that extended intervals, in light of the limited supply, is the right course for now.
> If they can reduce it great, but the gamble seems to have been right.


Data clearly shows that with variants vaccines are pretty ineffective after first dose, and very effective after second dose.
Not sure what data indicates they made good decision, could you provide some?

If the data from Qatar is verifiable and the policy to use vaccine off-label is not adjusted the very second, then imho charges of involuntary manslaughter should be filed. Ignoring science and leaving high-risk groups exposed for political gains is criminal and straight disgusting


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> Possible, but if most people have a shot, it should reduce the spread, which reduces peoples chances of getting it.
> 
> I think it's still a maybe, but early data suggests the vaccines, particularly AZ, are quite effective for some time after the first dose.
> 
> It's a bunch of trade offs with incomplete data.
> 
> Realistically I say give everyone 1 dose of AZ as soon as possible, then within 3-4 months, try to ensure they either finish the AZ dose, or give 2 shots of pfizer/moderna.
> 
> But hey, I'm not in charge


But for God's sake, if UK run a small trial for AZ (that saying 3 months interval is OK), it cannot be applied automatically to Pfizer and Moderna that work in completely different technology! Spain is the only country except Canada that extended doses interval, but they are doing it only for AZ (where we have some data) and for people below 60.

and. _According to Dr. Waleed Javaid, an associate professor of infectious disease at Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City, "You have more than likely wasted the first dose if you don t get the second one in time.._

Let's face the truth, NACI knows how many vaccines (IN REAL LIFE) we can expect and with simple math came to 4 months (not 3 or 5 months) intervals! MrMatt, you are not TruAnon , you should understand that it's just a bet, like in casino...

P.S. if you take antibiotics and manufacturer tells you to take 4 pills per day during 1 week, I doubt you will start experimenting taking 1 pill per day , right?!


----------



## Ukrainiandude

damian13ster said:


> for political gains


Quantity over quality, in the best traditions of the communist countries.


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> Spain is the only country except Canada that extended doses interval, but they are doing it only for AZ (where we have some data) and for people below 60.


Not true, many countries are pushing single shot first with an "unknown time" for the second shot.


----------



## Money172375

Looks like I might be getting both……









Ontario likely to mix first and second COVID-19 vaccine doses amid lack of AstraZeneca supply: Elliott


Ontario Health Minister Christine Elliott says it’s likely that recipients of the Oxford-AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine may receive a different shot for their second dose




www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## Eder

I think people that are able should hop a plane & take a holiday to the USA to get vaccinated properly with a J&J shot.


----------



## zinfit

Eder said:


> I think people that are able should hop a plane & take a holiday to the USA to get vaccinated properly with a J&J shot.


Trudeau's insane one size fits all border restrictions screws this option up. Every state has a surplus of vaccines. It takes 10 minutes in a Walmart or CVS to get a shot. Some states don't even require an ID. A 1/2 day trip to the USA would solve a lot of problems for Canadian vaccinations. Some provinces have done that for truckers and essential workers. Thinking outside the box isn't a plus for Trudeau and his amateur act cabinet.


----------



## Eder

The pharmacy I got my shots at is now "no appointment necessary". No one needs ID for a shot here in Hawaii. Problem is this place is getting crowded again with tourists & the Marriot next door put their lowest rates up to $500/nite now. More expensive than a TruAnon Gulag!

At the end of April, more than 9,000 Americans were reported to be infected after being vaccinated, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. While that’s a tiny percentage of the 95 million people fully inoculated at the time. So the percentage is? Thought so...lets open the border to the US.


----------



## gibor365

zinfit said:


> Trudeau's insane one size fits all border restrictions screws this option up. Every state has a surplus of vaccines. It takes 10 minutes in a Walmart or CVS to get a shot. Some states don't even require an ID. A 1/2 day trip to the USA would solve a lot of problems for Canadian vaccinations. Some provinces have done that for truckers and essential workers. Thinking outside the box isn't a plus for Trudeau and his amateur act cabinet.


Exactly! We live 1 hour from Buffalo and I'd just go with my family and get 2nd shot on time.....but....go cross the border !


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Looks like I might be getting both……
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario likely to mix first and second COVID-19 vaccine doses amid lack of AstraZeneca supply: Elliott
> 
> 
> Ontario Health Minister Christine Elliott says it’s likely that recipients of the Oxford-AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine may receive a different shot for their second dose
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theglobeandmail.com


Same with my wife .... and I;m worried about it , as there are no any trials that this is safe....only speculations


----------



## gibor365

This is truly ridiculous for country that thing it's "the best in the World" LOL









Patients died from neglect, not COVID-19, in Ontario LTC homes, military report finds: ‘All they needed was water and a wipe down’


Military report finds many residents of two Ontario nursing homes died of malnutrition and dehydration




www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## gibor365

Looks like that as expected Trudeau wasted taxpayers money on Montreal vaccine plant , but helped a lot to his QC friends 
*Novavax (NASDAQ:NVAX) shares tumble ~7.5% in the pre-market after The Washington Post reported that the company is unlikely to seek the FDA’s emergency use authorization for the **COVID-19 vaccine until at least June.*

Who needs Novavax in late summer if everyone who wants should get Pfizer or Moderna much earlier?!


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> Looks like that as expected Trudeau wasted taxpayers money on Montreal vaccine plant , but helped a lot to his QC friends
> *Novavax (NASDAQ:NVAX) shares tumble ~7.5% in the pre-market after The Washington Post reported that the company is unlikely to seek the FDA’s emergency use authorization for the **COVID-19 vaccine until at least June.*
> 
> Who needs Novavax in late summer if everyone who wants should get Pfizer or Moderna much earlier?!


That's good right? More for Canada as the US doesn't need it.


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> That's good right? More for Canada as the US doesn't need it.


US is practically doesn't need all vaccines, Pfizer, Moderna, JNJ ... Investing into Novavax plant is just usual waste of taxpayers money


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> Not true, many countries are pushing single shot first with an "unknown time" for the second shot.


Can you post a link to such countries?! Sounds like a "fake news"


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> Can you post a link to such countries?! Sounds like a "fake news"


You can look up single and fully vaccinated numbers for each country, enjoy!


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> US is practically doesn't need all vaccines, Pfizer, Moderna, JNJ ... Investing into Novavax plant is just usual waste of taxpayers money


You know we live in Canada right? That's good the US doesn't need more vaccines, more for Canada!


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> You can look up single and fully vaccinated numbers for each country, enjoy!


Believe me, I checked and no country in the world has such big difference between 1st and 2nd dose, and as I said, no country except Canada made such announcement


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest, what exactly is your deal? Why do you keep denying the facts and lie continuously? What is the reason for it?

No, there isn't a single civilized country other than Canada that decided to use Moderna and Pfizer off-label. 
The issue isn't that US has too many vaccines. The issue is that Canadian government continues to throw our money away instead of spending it wisely


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> Believe me, I checked and no country in the world has such big difference between 1st and 2nd dose, and as I said, no country except Canada made such announcement


You said "Spain is the only country except Canada that extended doses interval" not what the difference was! I do agree Canada has a wider margin but I haven't checked them all.

A few examples, Norway was going by schedule until March 11 then they greatly decreased their second shots to almost the end of april. Currently sitting at 28.5 / 7.5 for one/full, germany 32.4 / 9.1 and there are more.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> No, there isn't a single civilized country other than Canada that decided to use Moderna and Pfizer off-label.


See my post above to gibor, you decide.


----------



## damian13ster

Germany had 6.33% partially vaccinated population on Mar 28. They had 4.71% fully vaccinated
Norway had 6.41% partially vaccinated population on Mar 28. They had 5.04% fully vaccinated
6 weeks later (Pfizer and Moderna can be used up to 42 days later)
Germany had 9.04% fully vaccinated, which is increase of 4.33%. Not quite 6.33% Explanation: delay in data by 3 days and don't know how many were Astra Zenecas. At the very least though, 2/3 of people get their 2nd doses on-label.
Norway had 8.37% fully vaccinated. So only a bit over 55% received 2nd dose in time. A problem? Norway used Astra Zeneca quite heavily (over 20% doses given) and then stopped it completely due to safety concerns so the question remains what happened with people who got 1 dose of AZ. I don't have answer for that question, but even assuming all vaccines were mRNA, still majority got their 2nd doses in time.

You are misrepresenting the data by not providing context. Vaccination rates are increasing, and therefore the spread between one-dose and two-dose cohort will increase with that rate, until everyone gets their first dose. And at that point it won't mean that suddenly there was shortened time between doses. It will mean that there is no new people to get the first dose.
It is as simple and as logical as that.


There is no excuse for Canada experimenting on their own population. And data from Qatar that was posted in this thread now shows that the experiments by the government resulted in deaths. It is inexcusable, and although might not be criminal (wish it was), they need to be held accountable, and most importantly stop this idiocy right away and start following the science.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Germany had 6.33% partially vaccinated population on Mar 28. They had 4.71% fully vaccinated


I'm looking at the numbers for today, not for March 28th.


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> I'm looking at the numbers for today, not for March 28th.


So you consciously choose to ignore an effect of increasing vaccination rate on the spread between people who got 1 vs people who got 2 doses?
If that is not disingenuous then I don't know what is.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> So you consciously choose to ignore an effect of increasing vaccination rate on the spread between people who got 1 vs people who got 2 doses?
> If that is not disingenuous then I don't know what is.


I didn't say anything about that, I was responding to gibor's comment "Spain is the only country except Canada that extended doses interval".


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> I didn't say anything about that, I was responding to gibor's comment "Spain is the only country except Canada that extended doses interval".


And you claimed that by providing numbers that are absolutely useless unless you compare them to numbers from 6 weeks prior, since that's how much apart mRNA vaccine doses can be delivered.
Ideally, you should also separate AstraZeneca from that data but not really necessary to prove a point. 

Canada is the only country that experiments on its subjects by going against scientists who created the vaccine and using it off-label. And this has resulted in the wave we are currently in and in additional, unnecessary, and completely avoidable deaths, because (surprise, surprise) it turned out that vaccines are significantly less effective when not used as prescribed.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> And you claimed that by providing numbers that are absolutely useless unless you compare them to numbers from 6 weeks prior, since that's how much apart mRNA vaccine doses can be delivered.


That's right, go compare the numbers over time and you'll see they are spreading apart for many countries. They are not following in a close "lock-step" with a 3-4 week delay. Compare Israel, which more or less followed the minimum intervals, vs the others to see what I mean.


----------



## damian13ster

Israel had a different deal with Pfizer. They were brilliant about it, they built a business case, they paid extra, so they weren't limited by the amount of vaccine received. All the other countries are limited so their vaccine supply is much less steady and much more exponential than Israel's.
Also, they didn't have a 'noise' in their data since they didn't use AstraZeneca, which has different dosing schedule, so everything is much more steady.
For that reason, as the vaccine doses available ramp up, and increase, the vaccination pace will increase and the spread between 1/2 dose number will increase proportionally. Very simple logic


I am shocked into how much length one needs to go to explain simple math especially on forum related to money


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> There is no excuse for Canada experimenting on their own population.


Yes there is.
We're in the middle of a pandemic, and we don't have enough vaccine for everyone.

We know that the vaccine doesn't suddenly become 0% effective at some point, it just slowly fades off, at a rate that varies by a lot of factors. 

Honestly if we could give every single person in the country a vaccine at once, COVID19 in it's current form would be done before the vaccines wear off.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> US is practically doesn't need all vaccines, Pfizer, Moderna, JNJ ... Investing into Novavax plant is just usual waste of taxpayers money


Criticizing Canada for not having domestic vaccine production capacity as well as investing in creating it?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> Honestly if we could give every single person in the country a vaccine at once, COVID19 in it's current form would be done before the vaccines wear off.


 Science doubt that.


https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2104974




The study shows that Pfizer’s effectiveness against the British and South African variants are minimal after only one dose (29 per cent and 16.9 per cent, respectively), but become 89.5 per cent and 75 per cent effective, 14 days after the second dose.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Science doubt that.
> 
> 
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2104974
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The study shows that Pfizer’s effectiveness against the British and South African variants are minimal after only one dose (29 per cent and 16.9 per cent, respectively), but become 89.5 per cent and 75 per cent effective, 14 days after the second dose.


We need variant boosters anyway.

When you say "effective" do they mean, "not getting covid", or "not hospitalized/dying"

"Nevertheless, the reduced protection against infection with the B.1.351 variant did not seem to translate into poor protection against the most severe forms of infection (i.e., those resulting in hospitalization or death), which was robust, at greater than 90%."


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Israel had a different deal with Pfizer. They were brilliant about it, they built a business case, they paid extra, so they weren't limited by the amount of vaccine received. All the other countries are limited so their vaccine supply is much less steady and much more exponential than Israel's.
> Also, they didn't have a 'noise' in their data since they didn't use AstraZeneca, which has different dosing schedule, so everything is much more steady.
> For that reason, as the vaccine doses available ramp up, and increase, the vaccination pace will increase and the spread between 1/2 dose number will increase proportionally. Very simple logic


Great, you finally see it! Yes, many countries with limited vaccine supply (like Canada) are pushing first shots and when done the second shots will follow.


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> Science doubt that.
> 
> 
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2104974
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The study shows that Pfizer’s effectiveness against the British and South African variants are minimal after only one dose (29 per cent and 16.9 per cent, respectively), but become 89.5 per cent and 75 per cent effective, 14 days after the second dose.


This study seems to get referenced a fair bit. Not sure how well it applies to our situation as they don't break out data for first dose > 14 days.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Criticizing Canada for not having domestic vaccine production capacity as well as investing in creating it?


I didn't criticize "Canada for not having domestic vaccine production capacity", I was criticizing failure for supply vaccines.
Also, I noted that IMHO, Canadian pharmas aren't capable create good vaccine


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> I didn't say anything about that, I was responding to gibor's comment "Spain is the only country except Canada that extended doses interval".


CDC said that 2nd dose must be done within 6 weeks (for Pfizer and Moderna), I doubt that there is any country that exceeds it 
You can see on chart below that no country is even close to gap between 1st and nd dose like Canada


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Yes there is.
> We're in the middle of a pandemic, and we don't have enough vaccine for everyone.
> 
> We know that the vaccine doesn't suddenly become 0% effective at some point, it just slowly fades off, at a rate that varies by a lot of factors.
> 
> Honestly if we could give every single person in the country a vaccine at once, COVID19 in it's current form would be done before the vaccines wear off.


No, there isn't.
Medical experimentation on population is against Geneva convention, which pandemic doesn't somehow negate.
Also, we are 14 months into the pandemic. We have the data now to show that first dose of vaccine is extremely ineffective in preventing severe cases with variants (that's what that data says) but is very effective in preventing severe cases after second dose, without any other booster shots. Seniors in Canada are exposed, and they are exposed because of government that would rather see them die than admit they messed up procurement.

First 3-4 months of pandemic everyone was going at it without proper data, mistakes made then are excusable, although intelligence of those making the decision can still be questioned.
After that period there was already plenty of data on effectiveness (or lack- of) of various responses.
We already have the data to show first dose is pretty much useless against variants.
That data is out there, yet you don't see politicians come out and adjust the strategy.
Now lack of intelligence is no longer an excuse. Data is available.

Simply government of Canada would rather see people die than admit mistakes they made


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> CDC said that 2nd dose must be done within 6 weeks (for Pfizer and Moderna), I doubt that there is any country that exceeds it


I agree, Canada is pushing first shots more than many countries.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> No, there isn't.
> Medical experimentation on population is against Geneva convention, which pandemic doesn't somehow negate.
> Also, we are 14 months into the pandemic. We have the data now to show that first dose of vaccine is extremely ineffective in preventing severe cases with variants (that's what that data says) but is very effective in preventing severe cases after second dose, without any other booster shots. Seniors in Canada are exposed, and they are exposed because of government that would rather see them die than admit they messed up procurement.
> 
> First 3-4 months of pandemic everyone was going at it without proper data, mistakes made then are excusable, although intelligence of those making the decision can still be questioned.
> After that period there was already plenty of data on effectiveness (or lack- of) of various responses.
> We already have the data to show first dose is pretty much useless against variants.
> That data is out there, yet you don't see politicians come out and adjust the strategy.
> Now lack of intelligence is no longer an excuse. Data is available.
> 
> Simply government of Canada would rather see people die than admit mistakes they made











Geneva Conventions - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




The Geneva Conventions extensively defined the basic rights of wartime prisoners (civilians and military personnel), established protections for the wounded and sick, and established protections for the civilians in and around a war-zone.
Canada is not a war zone, so the geneva Convetions don't apply.

Secondly, there is no Geneva convention against consenting to a medical procedure.

I'd like to see the study saying that the first dose is extremely ineffective, that's quite different than the data I've seen. Perhaps you can substantiate this claim.

Also in this situation, I was made aware it could be some time before more doses were available. Considering the overall situation, I made the informed and free choice that I would rather take a single shot now, and wait extra long, than to not get a shot.

If you do not want the shot, go ahead and avoid it, nobody is forcing you. You can wait till there is enough to get it on a different schedule.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> If you do not want the shot, go ahead and avoid it, nobody is forcing you. You can wait till there is enough to get it on a different schedule.


Perhaps people should be informed that according to the manufacturer manual doses should be three weeks apart, but you only going to get yours in 16 weeks or maybe in 12 weeks if you are lucky, before they agreed to the single shot shady enterprise.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Perhaps people should be informed that according to the manufacturer manual doses should be three weeks apart, but you only going to get yours in 16 weeks or maybe in 12 weeks if you are lucky, before they agreed to the single shot shady enterprise.


Based on my knowledge from people who took the shots they were all told about the timeline for their second shot.
Most people were surprised that my second shot wasn't booked at the same time I booked my first shot.

Did you get a shot? Were you not told about when you'd get your second shot?


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> Based on my knowledge from people who took the shots they were all told about the timeline for their second shot.
> Most people were surprised that my second shot wasn't booked at the same time I booked my first shot.
> 
> Did you get a shot? Were you not told about when you'd get your second shot?


Both myself (Pfizer) and my wife (AZ - Rexall) got 2nd shot appointments (16 weeks after) 1 shot


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> Did you get a shot? Were you not told about when you'd get your second shot?


 Yes. There was no mentioning of three weeks apart between shots. I was told I should be able to get the second dose in up to four months, although the hope is for earlier. If I were told that manual says three weeks apart and cdc says six, but I might got mine in sixteen, I would have never agreed to that.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

I personally set my calendar for the six weeks cut of deadline. If I won’t be able to get it by then, I will not book for the second dose.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> I personally set my calendar for the six weeks cut of deadline. If I won’t be able to get it by then, I will not book for the second dose.


Why? 
Wouldn't that be putting you in a worse position?

Also you've been active here for a while, I doubt that you didn't know the recommendation period was shorter than the planned vaccination schedule at that time.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Can anyone help me understand this a little better. I am a little confused on the PCR negative and PCR positive columns. Anyone understand what is happening there?

2ndly. This 0% effectiveness for 1 dose against the B1.341 variant. I see 45 infections compared to 348 under the PCR pos. column and 35 vs 358 in the PCR neg. column. Seems like the vaccine is producing a considerable number of less infections but they go on to say it all results in 0% efficacy. Sorry but I am confused. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Perhaps this test requires the PCR pos to be lower then the PCR neg. to indicated any efficacy, but again, it would be nice to understand it a little better. I am about 8 years and a thesis short on my Phd.



https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2104974


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> Why?
> Wouldn't that be putting you in a worse position?


I don’t see the benefit of getting it in sixteen weeks vs required three (six). 


MrMatt said:


> Also you've been active here for a while, I doubt that you didn't know the recommendation period was shorter than the planned vaccination schedule at that time.


I blame it on my impulsive stupidity. For some reason I had Astra Zeneca four months in my head, and when the nurse voiced four months, I thought sounds about right. But only after the shot I decided to read the Pfizer manual and CDC and was upset.


----------



## Spudd

OptsyEagle said:


> Can anyone help me understand this a little better. I am a little confused on the PCR negative and PCR positive columns. Anyone understand what is happening there?
> 
> 2ndly. This 0% effectiveness for 1 dose against the B1.341 variant. I see 45 infections compared to 348 under the PCR pos. column and 35 vs 358 in the PCR neg. column. Seems like the vaccine is producing a considerable number of less infections but they go on to say it all results in 0% efficacy. Sorry but I am confused. Can anyone shed some light on this?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2104974
> 
> 
> View attachment 21662


Apparently the PCR-positive and negative columns are a result of the "test-negative case control" study design. Here's an article about how that works:








Basic principles of test-negative design in evaluating influenza vaccine effectiveness


Based on the unique characteristics of influenza, the concept of “monitoring” influenza vaccine effectiveness (VE) across the seasons using the same o…




www.sciencedirect.com




In a nutshell it seems like the reason is they use people who have chosen to get tested as their study participants, rationale being that people who wanted to get tested will have similar "health care seeking" behavior. This study matched each PCR-positive person to a PCR-negative person of similar age/sex/etc. 

I guess we assume the PCR-negative people either had a false negative or just had some sort of respiratory illness that wasn't Covid. 

The zero percent effectiveness after one dose for 1.351 is because 45/(45+348)=11.5% of PCR-positive people were vaccinated, and 35/(35+358)=8.9% of PCR-negative people were vaccinated. So actually a higher percentage of vaccinated people got Covid than non-vaccinated.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> I don’t see the benefit of getting it in sixteen weeks vs required three (six).


I do, I get the vaccine 4 months earlier, ie April instead of August.

I want to slow the spread now, not in 4 months when there is "enough" for everyone.

I'm glad they are going forward with this approach, considering the limited resources it seems to make sense.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> I'm glad they are going forward with this approac


 Well, they should keep the takers informed. I.e remind them the required spacing between dose, to help make the informed decision.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Well, they should keep the takers informed. I.e remind them the required spacing between dose, to help make the informed decision.


You were informed about the time between doses.
The doses are being applied in accordance with the governments approved schedule for the vaccine in question.

If you wanted to dig deeper, that's on you.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> considering the limited resources it seems to make sense.


 With limited antibiotics available or when people skip the required dosing and duration of the treatment, begets superbugs. 
This voodoo approach and re tailoring manuals requirements will help to bring new, more resilient variants.


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> With limited antibiotics available or when people skip the required dosing and duration of the treatment, begets superbugs.
> This voodoo approach and re tailoring manuals requirements will help to bring new, more resilient variants.


I think the question would be ... who will get infected more?

Is it one dose people waiting for a second shot in a few months or zero dose people waiting for a few months to get both doses within the recommended interval?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

cainvest said:


> I think the question would be ... who will get infected more?
> 
> Is it one dose people waiting for a second shot in a few months or zero dose people waiting for a few months to get both doses within the recommended interval?


 With one shot only giving 29% and 16% protection against variants, I would take my chances. Vs properly vaccinated getting 89% and 75% protection.


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> With one shot only giving 29% and 16% protection against variants, I would take my chances. Vs properly vaccinated getting 89% and 75% protection.


Yup, just keep in mind those numbers don't reflect the one shot protection after 14 days.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> With one shot only giving 29% and 16% protection against variants, I would take my chances. Vs properly vaccinated getting 89% and 75% protection.


Yeah, that's not quite what the data really says.
Compare 1 shot at 3 months, vs no shots, and the data looks really good for the person who got 1 shot.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

cainvest said:


> Yup, just keep in mind those numbers don't reflect the one shot protection after 14 days.


Protection dissipates with time, and without a required booster, the delayed booster shot will be basically a first shot.
In essence the Canadian population instead of 89% and 75% protection levels will get 29 and 19% albeit with two shots.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Spudd said:


> Apparently the PCR-positive and negative columns are a result of the "test-negative case control" study design. Here's an article about how that works:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Basic principles of test-negative design in evaluating influenza vaccine effectiveness
> 
> 
> Based on the unique characteristics of influenza, the concept of “monitoring” influenza vaccine effectiveness (VE) across the seasons using the same o…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sciencedirect.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a nutshell it seems like the reason is they use people who have chosen to get tested as their study participants, rationale being that people who wanted to get tested will have similar "health care seeking" behavior. This study matched each PCR-positive person to a PCR-negative person of similar age/sex/etc.
> 
> I guess we assume the PCR-negative people either had a false negative or just had some sort of respiratory illness that wasn't Covid.
> 
> The zero percent effectiveness after one dose for 1.351 is because 45/(45+348)=11.5% of PCR-positive people were vaccinated, and 35/(35+358)=8.9% of PCR-negative people were vaccinated. So actually a higher percentage of vaccinated people got Covid than non-vaccinated.


It is still quite confusing. Did they take people who came to get tested. Matched the positive person to a negative person, vaccinated some and not others, and then followed them around to see if they were protected from covid? That wouldn't make sense, because anyone who tested positive would already have some level of protection different from the ones testing negative.

Also, as cainvest indicated, did they give the 1 dose people some days to build protection or did they just vaccinate them and start counting infections right away? Obviously counting right away would be dumb.

It's annoying that they go to all this work and then you have no idea what they are actually looking at.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> It is still quite confusing. Did they take people who came to get tested. Matched the positive person to a negative person, vaccinated some and not others, and then followed them around to see if they were protected from covid? That wouldn't make sense, because anyone who tested positive would already have some level of protection different from the ones testing negative.
> 
> Also, as cainvest indicated, did they give the 1 dose people some days to build protection or did they just vaccinate them and start counting infections right away? Obviously counting right away would be dumb.
> 
> It's annoying that they go to all this work and then you have no idea what they are actually looking at.


That's why you have to read the whole study. If it's well written it explains all that. I don't have the time to read it now, plus I'm sure someone will accuse me of reading it wrong and being misleading.

it's also why single line summaries of research are often wrong. the media is particularly bad IMO.

For many of these studies they start counting from Day 0, which is problematic.
examples based on my undertstanding of the data.
I think Pfizer gives protection sooner than AZ, but the single dose AZ protection might actually be stronger than Pfizer before the second shots are administerred.

also you have to consider what does "effective" really mean, and does their definition meet yours.

I'd like effective to mean swimming in COVID19 and laughing about it, but I'm happy with it being you get sick for 2 days, but nobody dies or suffers long term health effects. 

In short papers should be complete and readable by an educated person, but some are not.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> single dose AZ protection might actually be stronger


“And one of the things that we are learning is that the AstraZeneca vaccines do seem to have a stronger cell immunity response — those cells that help us have a long-term memory.“ That’s why four months is okay for Astra Zeneca but not okay with Pfizer.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> “And one of the things that we are learning is that the AstraZeneca vaccines do seem to have a stronger cell immunity response — those cells that help us have a long-term memory.“ That’s why four months is okay for Astra Zeneca but not okay with Pfizer.


AFAIK, they were talking about 3 months, not 4


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> For many of these studies they start counting from Day 0, which is problematic.
> examples based on my undertstanding of the data.
> I think Pfizer gives protection sooner than AZ, but the single dose AZ protection might actually be stronger than Pfizer before the second shots are administerred.
> 
> also you have to consider what does "effective" really mean, and does their definition meet yours.
> 
> I'd like effective to mean swimming in COVID19 and laughing about it, but I'm happy with it being you get sick for 2 days, but nobody dies or suffers long term health effects.
> 
> In short papers should be complete and readable by an educated person, but some are not.



Yeah, that study is garbage for 1 dose results. Testing on day 1 for the 1 dose is not only inappropriate, because that vaccine has not had enough time to produce any immune response, but worse, most of the people that tested positive in the 1st 7 days, when you consider the 4 to 6 day incubation period of the virus, they would probably have been infected BEFORE they were even vaccinated.

I suppose the data might be useful for the 2 dose information.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Yeah, that study is garbage for 1 dose results. Testing on day 1 for the 1 dose is not only inappropriate, because that vaccine has not had enough time to produce any immune response, but worse, most of the people that tested positive in the 1st 7 days, when you consider the 4 to 6 day incubation period of the virus, they would probably have been infected BEFORE they were even vaccinated.
> 
> I suppose the data might be useful for the 2 dose information.


Honestly once you read a few papers and discuss them, you'll find many of them don't mean what people think they mean, and they often have major holes. You need to be aware of that.
But often they also have some interesting and useful findings.

That's really the goal, get something useful out there, and hopefully someone will interpret it correctly.


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> Protection dissipates with time, and without a required booster, the delayed booster shot will be basically a first shot.


I haven't dug into longevity for pfizer yet so I'm not sure how long it's lasting. 



Ukrainiandude said:


> In essence the Canadian population instead of 89% and 75% protection levels will get 29 and 19% albeit with two shots.


But those 29/19% numbers should acutally rise a fair bit (unknown though) if they exclude the first 14-21 days.

As an example from the clinical trial data .... pfizer showed 51% for the first shot (day 0 - day 21) but analysis of the data showed effectiveness as high as 91% on day 21 post-vaccination with a single dose of Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.


----------



## gibor365

http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/COVID-19_vaccine/Public_health_statement_deferred_second_dose.pdf


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/COVID-19_vaccine/Public_health_statement_deferred_second_dose.pdf


European Medicines Agency and World Health Organisation recommend or support deferral of the second dose up to 6 weeks.
 The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has recommended that manufacturer’s schedule should be followed whenever possible (21 days apart for Pfizer vaccine, 28 days apart for Moderna vaccine), but administration of second dose could be deferred up to 6 weeks.

The Canadian National Advisory Committee on Immunization has recommended that Canadian jurisdictions should extend the interval for the second dose to 4 months.


----------



## like_to_retire

gibor365 said:


> http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/COVID-19_vaccine/Public_health_statement_deferred_second_dose.pdf


Interesting and lots of hopeful info , but the important message from the report is when it says:

_"The duration of protection is unknown for either single or two-dose regimens since studies have
only lasted a few months to date"._

ltr


----------



## sags

Without a doubt.........the maker of Pfizer said they WILL NOT change their recommendations on the two shot regime.

What else do people need to know ? Everything else is just background noise.


----------



## damian13ster

People need to know that deferral of doses have been untested, that one dose has very little protection against variants, and that they are being experimented on since there is no science (no tests were done) on dosing delay of more than 6 weeks.
And government needs to be questioned why it gives out recommendations that have no scientific studies behind it. Seniors in Canada now have 13-27% of protection from variants vs 70+% that they should have had if they weren't being denied proper protection by Canadian government for political purposes.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> European Medicines Agency and World Health Organisation recommend or support deferral of the second dose up to 6 weeks.
>  The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has recommended that manufacturer’s schedule should be followed whenever possible (21 days apart for Pfizer vaccine, 28 days apart for Moderna vaccine), but administration of second dose could be deferred up to 6 weeks.
> 
> The Canadian National Advisory Committee on Immunization has recommended that Canadian jurisdictions should extend the interval for the second dose to 4 months.


I know it....but Canadians are probably different


----------



## gibor365

like_to_retire said:


> Interesting and lots of hopeful info , but the important message from the report is when it says:
> 
> _"The duration of protection is unknown for either single or two-dose regimens since studies have
> only lasted a few months to date"._
> 
> ltr


Actually , I posted this article only because of your quote! We're in uncharted territory!


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> Interesting and lots of hopeful info , but the important message from the report is when it says:
> 
> _"The duration of protection is unknown for either single or two-dose regimens since studies have
> only lasted a few months to date"._
> 
> ltr


It's important to notice that they're only talking about extending the interval to a few months, which is the interval they've studied.

They know that boosters for the variants will likely be required anyway. 
Back in May we were discussing this, maybe they'd need annual or even semi-annual boosters. Annual boosters, combined with flu shot could be a really effective solution.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

I am giving Canadian government another brilliant idea, currently Pfizer has 6 x 0.3 ml dose vial, if give a person 0.2 ml you can vaccinate 9 people.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> I am giving Canadian government another brilliant idea, currently Pfizer has 6 x 0.3 ml dose vial, if give a person 0.2 ml you can vaccinate 9 people.


Hey! You are stealing my idea! Several weeks ago I proposed to give everyone only 1/2 dose , so we can quarter- vaccinate everyone very fast


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> Hey! You are stealing my idea! Several weeks ago I proposed to give everyone only 1/2 dose , so we can quarter- vaccinate everyone very fast


And then give half a placebo, call it a government run clinical trial ... 

oh, wait ... that hits a little to close to home.


----------



## Spudd

OptsyEagle said:


> It is still quite confusing. Did they take people who came to get tested. Matched the positive person to a negative person, vaccinated some and not others, and then followed them around to see if they were protected from covid? That wouldn't make sense, because anyone who tested positive would already have some level of protection different from the ones testing negative.
> 
> Also, as cainvest indicated, did they give the 1 dose people some days to build protection or did they just vaccinate them and start counting infections right away? Obviously counting right away would be dumb.
> 
> It's annoying that they go to all this work and then you have no idea what they are actually looking at.


I found the answer in that other article I posted about the method. They take everyone who came to be tested, and they ask them if they're vaccinated or not. Then they separate them into the 4 groups based on that.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Spudd said:


> I found the answer in that other article I posted about the method. They take everyone who came to be tested, and they ask them if they're vaccinated or not. Then they separate them into the 4 groups based on that.


Sure, but then what do they do? You can't really watch them all after, to see how the vaccine works, because the covid positives are already protected without vaccine. If they just take all the numbers from those coming to the testing sites, that seems silly, since most people going there probably have a covid reason to go there. Like being infected. That certainly is not a random or blind study if you ask me. Hence my confusion. 

They don't really tell me what they are actually doing to derive their results, or I am missing it. I have read all the articles, numerous times because the questions they are trying to answer are important.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> You were informed about the time between doses.
> The doses are being applied in accordance with the governments approved schedule for the vaccine in question.
> 
> If you wanted to dig deeper, that's on you.


This is information I got along with the vaccine. No mention of 3 weeks apart between shots as required by Pfizer.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> This is information I got along with the vaccine. No mention of 3 weeks apart between shots as required by Pfizer.


As recommended by Pfizer.
The approved schedule in Canada is different.


----------



## Spudd

OptsyEagle said:


> Sure, but then what do they do? You can't really watch them all after, to see how the vaccine works, because the covid positives are already protected without vaccine. If they just take all the numbers from those coming to the testing sites, that seems silly, since most people going there probably have a covid reason to go there. Like being infected. That certainly is not a random or blind study if you ask me. Hence my confusion.


They take the people who came to be tested. They ask them if they are vaccinated. They look at the test results and they separate them into groups of positive, negative, vaccinated, and unvaccinated. They don't follow them afterwards, the results are just from this one encounter.

They don't claim it to be random or blind, I don't think. But apparently it is one of the standard methods of testing vaccine effectiveness in society without doing clinical trials.

At least that's what I was able to gather. It's somewhat over my head as well. I'm a physicist, not a physician.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Spudd said:


> They take the people who came to be tested. They ask them if they are vaccinated. They look at the test results and they separate them into groups of positive, negative, vaccinated, and unvaccinated. They don't follow them afterwards, the results are just from this one encounter.
> 
> They don't claim it to be random or blind, I don't think. But apparently it is one of the standard methods of testing vaccine effectiveness in society without doing clinical trials.
> 
> At least that's what I was able to gather. It's somewhat over my head as well. I'm a physicist, not a physician.


That is about what I gathered from reading the studies as well.

The problem is that I would think that if they are only counting people who think they are infected they are missing the much larger group of vaccinated people who are not thinking they are infected, because they are not. In other words, if a vaccinated person exposes themselves to an oversized and larger then average dose of active covid and gets infected as a result, they get counted and then they count another person who was unvaccinated who probably only needed to expose themselves to a much, much smaller dose. That would not be a fair comparison of how effective the vaccine is. The vaccinated is probably dealing with a much larger dose of covid then the unvaccinated is.

In a random trial, it is assumed that everyone will randomly receive the average dose of covid going around. In this study, the dose is not controlled and therefore they are probably measuring apples to oranges. You see what I mean.

I know what they are trying to do, but by trying to solve one problem (health care seeking attitudes) they are creating a new one (uncontrolled covid dosage that needs to be neutralized before a person gets sick). So with that said, I think the random blind trials give a much better picture of efficacy then this type of study.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

I wonder if someone who received one dose were to book for “a first shot” in three weeks would be a success? Given the level of chaos in the system.


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> I wonder if someone who received one dose were to book for “a first shot” in three weeks would be a success? Given the level of chaos in the system.


At least in Ontario, no, because the data is recorded against your health card number.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> I wonder if someone who received one dose were to book for “a first shot” in three weeks would be a success? Given the level of chaos in the system.


Was thinking about it...but in any case you need full vaccination record to travel to many countries..... for example, France just announce that they are open beginning of July to international tourists, but require full vaccination by EU approved vaccines...
As per AUtoEurope (where I always rent cars), there are a huge demand to book rental car


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> require full vaccination


 If you get second shot in 16 weeks vs 3-6 required, are you considered fully vaccinated?


----------



## Money172375

I hope people who said with absolute certainty that delaying shots was the wrong idea given the circumstance, start to come off the edge a little bit.









Delay in giving second jabs of Pfizer vaccine improves immunity


Study finds antibodies against Sars-CoV-2 three-and-a-half times higher in people vaccinated again after 12 weeks rather than three




www.theguardian.com


----------



## damian13ster

What does that have to do with leaving seniors unprotected for additional 3 months? We are dealing with a third wave now and people are dying because government decided it is worth sacrificing their lives for political points. 50+ year olds should have been fully protected by now. Instead they are 13-27% protected depending on which variant they face. They are dying because of politics


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Money172375 said:


> delaying shots was the wrong idea


The Saskatchewan government announced five more deaths from COVID-19on Wednesday and 223 new cases, which brings the total number of provincial infections to 43,926, of which 8,782 are variants of concern.








Two deaths were reported in the far north east zone, one in the 60 to 69 age group and one in the 70 to 79 age group.
Another death was reported in the north central zone in the 70 to 79 age group and two more deaths happened in the north west and Regina zone, both in the age group of 80-plus.

I wonder if they were still alive if they had got their second shot in three weeks.


----------



## damian13ster

98.4% of deaths were among people 50+. 
95.3% were among people 60+.

All those groups would be fully protected by now if government didn't sacrifice their lives


----------



## Money172375

My point is that nothing is definitive. We don’t know that the immune response with delayed doses will also save more lives. My point is that the plan to delay doses was probably the best idea given the supply issues.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Money172375 said:


> My point is that the plan to delay doses was probably the best idea given the supply issues.


 I disagree, given the limited supply, people 50- 80 plus should have been fully vaccinated. unfortunately Canada has lowest rates for fully vaccinated people


----------



## damian13ster

And we are saying it wasn't because it resulted in deaths that could have been prevented.
We know for sure that government decision killed Canadians.

All studies show that there is immunity for more than 6 months after second dose (that's as far as the studies got so far so time is longer than that, we just don't know how much). That means procuring booster shots in time isn't a problem even if magically immunity disappears after 6 months + 1 day.
Immunity can be easily boosted when/if necessary.

Kind of sounds like you are trying to put lipstick on a pig. NACI and governments' actions resulted in killing Canadians. There is no way to put it nicely


----------



## cainvest

Money172375 said:


> My point is that the plan to delay doses was probably the best idea given the supply issues.


It's a tough call but MB did release some numbers on May 11 ....

_As of Monday, 0.09 per cent of Manitobans who had received one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine got infected after the two-week period needed to build up immunity, provincial data says._

We're currently at 48% vaccinated with at least a single shot. Hopefully they'll start to schedule second shots some time in june but that's just a guess.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> At least in Ontario, no, because the data is recorded against your health card number.


Some people disagree with you 
from another forum:
“just book a second shot
I just booked another first dose. 
I got my first one at a pharmacy early May i just booked a second shot at a community center end of May.
I think OHIP billing is a bunch of fax machines, us robotics 56K modems and excels spreadsheets on non networked computers.
The people at community centre have access to OHIP due to privacy concerns. (i am betting)
In my area there is more vaccine than people wanting appointments.”


----------



## Ukrainiandude

cainvest said:


> As of Monday, 0.09 per cent of Manitobans who had received one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine got infected


*Scotland's vaccine rollout suggests delaying the 2nd COVID-19 shot is a bad idea*
But the follow-up data available beyond that time is where it gets concerning. Effectiveness peaked and then began to decline, going from 84% effective in the fifth week to 61% effective the following week and then 58% beyond then.








Scotland's vaccine rollout suggests delaying the 2nd COVID-19 shot is a bad idea


"I think delaying the second dose for a considerable period of time is a mistake," the vaccine expert Dr. Paul Offit told Insider.




www.businessinsider.com





Single dose COVID19 Vaccine effect appears to peak and then start declining before 4 months Numbers here:




__





Loading…






www.ed.ac.uk






Published data from UK indicates cancer patients must get second dose of Covid19 vaccine within 4 weeks, not 4 months.




__





Loading…






www.medrxiv.org


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> My point is that nothing is definitive. We don’t know that the immune response with delayed doses will also save more lives. My point is that the plan to delay doses was probably the best idea given the supply issues.


You kinda gambling like in roulette  .... lets give 1 vaccine, wait 4 months and will see what's happening....


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Scotland's vaccine rollout suggests delaying the 2nd COVID-19 shot is a bad idea*
> But the follow-up data available beyond that time is where it gets concerning. Effectiveness peaked and then began to decline, going from 84% effective in the fifth week to 61% effective the following week and then 58% beyond then.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scotland's vaccine rollout suggests delaying the 2nd COVID-19 shot is a bad idea
> 
> 
> "I think delaying the second dose for a considerable period of time is a mistake," the vaccine expert Dr. Paul Offit told Insider.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Single dose COVID19 Vaccine effect appears to peak and then start declining before 4 months Numbers here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ed.ac.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Published data from UK indicates cancer patients must get second dose of Covid19 vaccine within 4 weeks, not 4 months.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medrxiv.org


But don't forget that canada is different from all civilized World LOL


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> Published data from UK indicates cancer patients must get second dose of Covid19 vaccine within 4 weeks, not 4 months.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medrxiv.org


There are a small number of second doses going out daily here in MB, maybe they are doing high risk patients?


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> There are a small number of second doses going out daily here in MB, maybe they are doing high risk patients?


Hopefully.

Cancer patients are a specific subclass as they are often immuno suppressed.


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> Hopefully.
> 
> Cancer patients are a specific subclass as they are often immuno suppressed.


It’s certainly not perfect. My mom is awaiting chemo and was denied a second dose. i Think they’ll happen before 4 months. I read that teens will start in June and be given a second shot in august in time for school.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> It’s certainly not perfect. My mom is awaiting chemo and was denied a second dose. i Think they’ll happen before 4 months. I read that teens will start in June and be given a second shot in august in time for school.


I think that a lot of the armchair quarterbacks are failing to understand how monsterous of a task this is.

Hopefully she gets her second shot.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Some people disagree with you
> from another forum:
> “just book a second shot
> I just booked another first dose.
> I got my first one at a pharmacy early May i just booked a second shot at a community center end of May.
> I think OHIP billing is a bunch of fax machines, us robotics 56K modems and excels spreadsheets on non networked computers.
> The people at community centre have access to OHIP due to privacy concerns. (i am betting)
> In my area there is more vaccine than people wanting appointments.”


 ... what's with the 360 degrees change in interest with the current vaccines from one of your earlier post from just 4 months ago?

mRNA vaccine technology

From your post #130:



> I will take the vaccine once it’s properly tested, on the Pfizer website the stage 3 of trials ends in 2023
> I won’t be volunteering as a lab rat for big pharma before that.


 .. today is only May 14, 2021.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> what's with the 360 degrees change


Millions of Britons, Jews, Americans took part in the experiment. Even trump and Biden. So I went with the herd, herd instinct (*Herd instinct* is a *mentality* that is distinguished by a lack of individual decision-making or introspection, causing people to think and behave in a similar fashion to those around them.) all this amount of brain washing from mass media. 
But as I said, now I am regretting it, should have waited until sec shot is offered for my age group.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Hopefully.
> 
> Cancer patients are a specific subclass as they are often immuno suppressed.


Looks like MB has updated their vaccine criteria page today. 


12-18 age group can now get the shot (along with everyone over 18)
Booking for second doses will begin May 22 for high risk patients


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> What does that have to do with leaving seniors unprotected for additional 3 months? We are dealing with a third wave now and people are dying because government decided it is worth sacrificing their lives for political points. 50+ year olds should have been fully protected by now. Instead they are 13-27% protected depending on which variant they face. They are dying because of politics


It's not clear that partially vaccinating twice as many people is worse than fully vaccinating a small subset. The former approach seems likelier to curb the rate of infection while still protecting more people from severe illness. And longer dose intervals seem to work better for AZ, and now Pfizer.









Delay in giving second jabs of Pfizer vaccine improves immunity


Study finds antibodies against Sars-CoV-2 three-and-a-half times higher in people vaccinated again after 12 weeks rather than three




www.theguardian.com


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> And longer dose intervals seem to work better for AZ, and now Pfizer.


Though they do mention some potentially observed short term protection losses which makes sense.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Millions of Britons, Jews, Americans took part in the experiment. Even trump and Biden. So I went with the herd, herd instinct (*Herd instinct* is a *mentality* that is distinguished by a lack of individual decision-making or introspection, causing people to think and behave in a similar fashion to those around them.) all this amount of brain washing from mass media.
> But as I said, now I am regretting it, should have waited until sec shot is offered for my age group.


 ... you're funny as I gather you're human after-all. So why regret getting your 2nd shot? You moved like Speedy Gonzales and is now complete.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> It's not clear that partially vaccinating twice as many people is worse than fully vaccinating a small subset. The former approach seems likelier to curb the rate of infection while still protecting more people from severe illness. And longer dose intervals seem to work better for AZ, and now Pfizer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delay in giving second jabs of Pfizer vaccine improves immunity
> 
> 
> Study finds antibodies against Sars-CoV-2 three-and-a-half times higher in people vaccinated again after 12 weeks rather than three
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


Tell that to those 50+ who died because they weren't fully protected. And didn't Canada just hit a record in infections. Numbers are close to the worst since the beginning of the pandemic.

I am sure 20-40 year olds whose total death count from the very beginning of the pandemic is lower than daily death count we have now could get by without 13-27% protection they got earlier, at an expense of 50+ year olds (over 98.5% of deaths is in that group) who aren't fully protected because of politics and are dying daily.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ... you're funny as I gather you're human after-all. So why regret getting your 2nd shot? You moved like Speedy Gonzales and is now complete.


What I am saying, is that I should have waited for getting the first shot, until second shot is offered for my age group. Thus booking my first shot with a clear perspective of getting the second shot within 3 weeks as required by Pfizer.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> What I am saying, is that I should have waited for getting the first shot, until second shot is offered for my age group. Thus booking my first shot with a clear perspective of getting the second shot within 3 weeks as required by Pfizer.


 ... okay. In any/your case, the first shot is a shot, still 180 degrees from your original post. As for the delay, you're part of the herd so welcome to the club.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Tell that to those 50+ who died because they weren't fully protected. And didn't Canada just hit a record in infections. Numbers are close to the worst since the beginning of the pandemic.


Like it or not, andrewf's point is valid. Whose to say it didn't save a 100 people from dying instead of 50?

And for the number of deaths, they've been greatly reduced in this "third wave".


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Tell that to those 50+ who died because they weren't fully protected. And didn't Canada just hit a record in infections. Numbers are close to the worst since the beginning of the pandemic.
> 
> I am sure 20-40 year olds whose total death count from the very beginning of the pandemic is lower than daily death count we have now could get by without 13-27% protection they got earlier, at an expense of 50+ year olds (over 98.5% of deaths is in that group) who aren't fully protected because of politics and are dying daily.


The question is did this slow the spread or reduce the number of deaths. 
We'll never know, but it's clear that the approach they went with wasn't completely wrong.

Remember 1 shot gives lots of protection, which hopefully significantly reduced spread and overall case numbers.
You cut the overall case numbers and deaths will decrease, you then make most of those people who'd get it partially vaccinated and the numbers will decrease again.

Secondly with full hospitals, we can't take care of people as well as we should.
Having 2k people sick in hospital with COVID is bad, having 2k in hospital and 8k turned away is worse.


----------



## damian13ster

Because only 1.5% of total deaths come from outside of groups. So it makes complete sense to protect the group responsible for 98.5% of deaths, doesn't it? You wouldn't suddenly have 20-30 times deaths of young people during a month it would take to fully vaccinate seniors than you did during previous 13 months of the pandemic.

Maybe there were reduced, but there are still order of magnitude higher than in people under 40 during ENTIRE pandemic. You don't need to protect 20-40 year olds to stop them from dying. The immune system is doing that perfectly by itself. You need to protect the 50+ and government knowingly refused to give them the protection


----------



## damian13ster

Against variants one shot gives close to zero protection as shown in this study:



https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2104974



I do have numbers to back up my thesis. You have hypothesis that neither follows common sense, nor has backing with any numbers (not surprisingly)


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Millions of Britons, Jews, Americans took part in the experiment.


Just small remark.... Jews can be American, Britons, Canadian etc... LOL


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> You don't need to protect 20-40 year olds to stop them from dying. The immune system is doing that perfectly by itself.


While their death rate is much lower hospitalizations for the 30-39 group was still somewhat high at 6.1%. Also remember that the 1-29 age group accounts for the most cases and those cases can spread to older people. It's not a totally clear situation to deal with.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Against variants one shot gives close to zero protection as shown in this study:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2104974
> 
> 
> 
> I do have numbers to back up my thesis. You have hypothesis that neither follows common sense, nor has backing with any numbers (not surprisingly)


As mentioned many times, that study is not a valid "one shot vs two shot" comparison.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Because only 1.5% of total deaths come from outside of groups. So it makes complete sense to protect the group responsible for 98.5% of deaths, doesn't it? You wouldn't suddenly have 20-30 times deaths of young people during a month it would take to fully vaccinate seniors than you did during previous 13 months of the pandemic.
> 
> Maybe there were reduced, but there are still order of magnitude higher than in people under 40 during ENTIRE pandemic. You don't need to protect 20-40 year olds to stop them from dying. The immune system is doing that perfectly by itself. You need to protect the 50+ and government knowingly refused to give them the protection


I agree with your logic.
But why not simply vaccinate the spreaders, and stop COVID19 completely?
Why let it continue to circulate and mutate?


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> 98.4% of deaths were among people 50+.
> 95.3% were among people 60+.
> 
> All those groups would be fully protected by now if government didn't sacrifice their lives





damian13ster said:


> Tell that to those 50+ who died because they weren't fully protected. And didn't Canada just hit a record in infections. Numbers are close to the worst since the beginning of the pandemic.
> 
> I am sure 20-40 year olds whose total death count from the very beginning of the pandemic is lower than daily death count we have now could get by without 13-27% protection they got earlier, at an expense of 50+ year olds (over 98.5% of deaths is in that group) who aren't fully protected because of politics and are dying daily.


Any stats on people who were vaccinated for 14 days and died? How do we weigh that against all the younger (40, 50, 60 year olds) that didn't land in hospital or die because they were partially vaccinated?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> still 180 degrees from your original post.


Got brainwashed by mass media. Sorry mate.


----------



## MrMatt

I think people have to realize that there are two roles of this vaccine.
For the government they want to stop the spread, and save lives.
For the individual they want to save their life (and those close to them) and stop the spread.

Those priorities are mostly overlapping, but not exactly the same.
However for AZ, as a 40yr old, they align.

For me (40's) it's pretty simple
183k Canadians in their 40's got COVID19.
5400 of them got hospitalized.
234 died.





COVID-19 epidemiology update: Key updates — Canada.ca


This summary of COVID-19 cases across Canada contains detailed data about the spread of the virus over time and in different regions of the country. Includes breakdowns by age and sex or gender. Provides an overview of testing, variants of concern, cases following vaccination and severe illness...




health-infobase.canada.ca





that means for someone in their 40's, of those who got COVID, 2950 per 100k were hospitalized, 128 per 100k died.

If you assume 5 in a million had the AZ blood clot, and half of them died, that's 2.5 in a million dead, or 0.25 per 100k.

128 per 100k vs 0.25 per 100k. 
If you get COVID19 as a 40 year old Canadian, you're 500x more likely to die than if you take the "too risky" AZ vaccine.

Yeah, I want to save my life, so I took AZ, it has nothing to do with the broader social benefits.

Just for reference, the under 19 crowd we're at 4k/100k in hospitalizations and 4.7/100k in deaths.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Just for reference, the under 19 crowd we're at 4k/100k in hospitalizations and 4.7/100k in deaths.


4.7 deaths per 100k for the under 19 age group?


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> 4.7 deaths per 100k for the under 19 age group?


















That's how I see it.
11/232237 *100k

note those screenshots are from the link in the previous post.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> That's how I see it.
> 11/232237 *100k


Ah, per positive cases not population ... got it.


----------



## Money172375

Ontario immunized over 150,000+ yesterday. Would have liked to see those numbers in earlier, but that’s a good number, and I suspect they could do more.


----------



## cainvest

Money172375 said:


> Ontario immunized over 150,000+ yesterday. Would have liked to see those numbers in earlier, but that’s a good number, and I suspect they could do more.


Looking good in Manitoba as well, almost at 50% now for 18+. As long as the Pfizer supply keeps rolling in second shot doses will begin May 22nd here.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

cainvest said:


> Looking good in Manitoba as well, almost at 50% now for 18+. As long as the Pfizer supply keeps rolling in second shot doses will begin May 22nd here.


 First 50-70% easy to get, because they are the people that want to get vaccine and the remaining 50-30% won’t be willing to get the vaccine. The USA is now at this stage.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> First 50-70% easy to get, because they are the people that want to get vaccine and the remaining 50-30% won’t be willing to get the vaccine. The USA is now at this stage.


Hopefully we get closer to 70%.
I understand the hesitation with the mRNA vaccines, it's such a new technology.


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> First 50-70% easy to get, because they are the people that want to get vaccine and the remaining 50-30% won’t be willing to get the vaccine. The USA is now at this stage.


I'm more interested in seeing the good supply continue so that all those that want it can get it. Whatever the numbers work out to in the end is way down the list on my concerns.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

cainvest said:


> supply


I don’t see that being a problem. Only from Pfizer 8 million monthly. Plus Moderna, Astra Zeneca, covishield, Jonson, let’s say 10 m. Canada has 26 million population to vaccinate let say Canada needs another 35 million doses to get second shot and first to those interested in getting it. By September every one interested in getting the shot will get one. Hopefully I can get my second shot in 3-6 weeks, otherwise I will have to live with my first shot.
OTTAWA -- Canada is set to begin receiving more than 2 million doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine each week as the two pharmaceutical firms ramp up their deliveries and begin shipping shots from the United States.


----------



## cainvest

Yes, Pfizer is doing great so far with some Moderna coming in as well. No AZ or J&J delivery schedules that I've seen so I wouldn't count on them.

I think by September most in the higher-risk groups (50+ and those with medical conditions) should have received their second shot.

Not sure why you'd bail on your second shot if past 6 weeks, still better than not getting it isn't it? Your call but I won't be waiting, I'll get ASAP.


----------



## gibor365

20% Canadians don't want to be vaccinated and 10% uncertain








Willingness to get vaccinated against COVID


Share who have not received a COVID vaccine and who are willing vs. unwilling vs. uncertain if they would get a vaccine this week if it was available to them. Also shown is the share who have already received at least one dose of a COVID vaccine.




ourworldindata.org


----------



## Money172375

Here’s the expected delivery timing. Goes out to july 4with Pfizer.






Canada’s COVID-19 vaccine supply and donation strategy - Canada.ca


Information on how Canada has procured its vaccines, managed the vaccine supply in country, and how vaccines are donated globally.




www.canada.ca


----------



## Ukrainiandude

cainvest said:


> why you'd bail on your second shot if past 6 weeks


Because Pfizer requires 3 weeks apart and CDC accepts up to 6 weeks apart. 
Plus I had been tired and sweat a lot after the first shot, and people reported that the second dose is much worse. 
If my 90 years old grand parents who refused to vaccinate, managed to recover from covid in Ukraine, although grand pa was hospitalized but never needed oxygen. I should be fine with my one shot and “outstanding“ Canadian health care.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Money172375 said:


> Here’s the expected delivery timing. Goes out to july 4with Pfizer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada’s COVID-19 vaccine supply and donation strategy - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> Information on how Canada has procured its vaccines, managed the vaccine supply in country, and how vaccines are donated globally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canada.ca


Even better, 
already has 20 m doses 
need another 30 m for the first and second shot. With 12 m monthly should be done by mid August


----------



## james4beach

The vaccination picture has rapidly changed, at least among my age group for my friends (20s to early 40s)

Over the last week there has been a flurry of texts between my friends and just about everyone I know is now scheduled to get vaccinated.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> First 50-70% easy to get, because they are the people that want to get vaccine and the remaining 50-30% won’t be willing to get the vaccine. The USA is now at this stage.


Polling indicates that 80-85% of Canadian adults will get vaccinated. We don't have the same proportion of anti-vax people.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> The vaccination picture has rapidly changed, at least among my age group for my friends (20s to early 40s)
> 
> Over the last week there has been a flurry of texts between my friends and just about everyone I know is now scheduled to get vaccinated.


My whole family (adults) now have appointments and will be vaccinated in next two weeks.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> Because Pfizer requires 3 weeks apart and CDC accepts up to 6 weeks apart.
> Plus I had been tired and sweat a lot after the first shot, and people reported that the second dose is much worse.
> If my 90 years old grand parents who refused to vaccinate, managed to recover from covid in Ukraine, although grand pa was hospitalized but never needed oxygen. I should be fine with my one shot and “outstanding“ Canadian health care.


No offense, but I think this is foolish. Taking your chances with COVID is a bit crazy.


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> Because Pfizer requires 3 weeks apart and CDC accepts up to 6 weeks apart.
> Plus I had been tired and sweat a lot after the first shot, and people reported that the second dose is much worse.
> If my 90 years old grand parents who refused to vaccinate, managed to recover from covid in Ukraine, although grand pa was hospitalized but never needed oxygen. I should be fine with my one shot and “outstanding“ Canadian health care.


Everyone needs to draw their own conclusions. At least you have some protection now and it might be enough if new cases come down soon.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> 20% Canadians don't want to be vaccinated and 10% uncertain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Willingness to get vaccinated against COVID
> 
> 
> Share who have not received a COVID vaccine and who are willing vs. unwilling vs. uncertain if they would get a vaccine this week if it was available to them. Also shown is the share who have already received at least one dose of a COVID vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ourworldindata.org





andrewf said:


> Polling indicates that 80-85% of Canadian adults will get vaccinated. We don't have the same proportion of anti-vax people.


See the quoted massage above. Expectations sometimes are different from reality and not always in the best way. If a person is asked about going to get vaccinated answer might be positive because a person will be afraid of consequences and because of the herd mentality. What person will do can be different.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

andrewf said:


> Taking your chances


I drive car every day, I take my chances. I am not fat and I am not in the age risk group, chances to die crossing the street, get killed by meteorite, or from vaccines are much higher vs die from covid.


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> The vaccination picture has rapidly changed, at least among my age group for my friends (20s to early 40s)
> 
> Over the last week there has been a flurry of texts between my friends and just about everyone I know is now scheduled to get vaccinated.


And I'm sure that you and your friends, all the way down to 12 years old's are all thrilled to take vaccines away from seniors, as well as the vulnerable population, who have a weaker immune response, and should not be made wait 4 months to get their second shot. Each shot you get, is one that this immunosuppressed group doesn't get.

We all know that the first dose wanes much faster compared to the two doses and the waning is “clearly high” in the elderly and immunosuppressed individuals. The 4 month delay in seniors is much “more risky” than the delay for younger people.

I'm sure young people are all quite pleased.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> I drive car every day, I take my chances. I am not fat and I am not in the age risk group, chances to die crossing the street, get killed by meteorite, *or from vaccines are much higher vs die from covid.*


Well actually the risk of dying from covid19 is much higher than dying from vaccines. There is extensive data on this.


----------



## cainvest

like_to_retire said:


> We all know that the first dose wanes much faster compared to the two doses and the waning is “clearly high” in the elderly and immunosuppressed individuals. The 4 month delay in seniors is much “more risky” than the delay for younger people.


That's one way to look at it, another is the more that get vaccinated the less new covid cases will appear so everyone has less of a chance to get it. And since the young are the biggest age group infected they are also most likely the biggest spreaders.

Also, for many in the older age groups, it doesn't look like a 4 month wait anymore.


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> I drive car every day, I take my chances. I am not fat and I am not in the age risk group, chances to die crossing the street, get killed by meteorite, or from vaccines are much higher vs die from covid.


Those odds might be true after your one dose.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> risk of dying from covid19


 I got one shot, I am not fat, am not in the age risk group. 
In this case other risks are much higher. Don’t you think?


----------



## nathan79

james4beach said:


> The vaccination picture has rapidly changed, at least among my age group for my friends (20s to early 40s)
> 
> Over the last week there has been a flurry of texts between my friends and just about everyone I know is now scheduled to get vaccinated.


Yup. I'm getting the jab tomorrow (I'm 41).


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> I drive car every day, I take my chances. I am not fat and I am not in the age risk group, chances to die crossing the street, get killed by meteorite, or from vaccines are much higher vs die from covid.


Trying to parse what you said. Are you suggesting that risk of death is higher from vaccine than COVID? That's just incorrect. And COVID can cause serious disability or long term health problems even in young, healthy people.

What you're describing is like driving without a seat belt because sometimes seat belts cause injuries.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> I got one shot, I am not fat, am not in the age risk group.
> In this case other risks are much higher. Don’t you think?


Other risks are much higher.
But your risk from COVID is higher than the risk from the vaccine. When you're deciding on the vaccine or not, that's the only question that matters.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> Other risks are much higher.
> But your risk from COVID is higher than the risk from the vaccine. When you're deciding on the vaccine or not, that's the only question that matters.





andrewf said:


> Trying to parse what you said. Are you suggesting that risk of death is higher from vaccine than COVID? That's just incorrect. And COVID can cause serious disability or long term health problems even in young, healthy people.
> 
> What you're describing is like driving without a seat belt because sometimes seat belts cause injuries.


I got one shot I should be fine, unlikely to get second shot within required period 3 weeks to 6 weeks CDC. Will get the annual variants updated booster next year. Cheers.


----------



## andrewf

There is evidence to suggest longer intervals actually provides greater immune response. Single dose immunity might be short lived. I would strongly suggest getting a second dose.


----------



## gibor365

Our friends (whom we wanted to invite home for long weekend for dinner) didn't want to get vaccine exactly for same reason as Ukranian dude mentioned (Ontario spreading intervals and going against producers/CDC procedures) and today their 18 y.o. daughter got Covid (probably her brother and parents also got it).! So, yes, even 1 shot with unknown timeframe for the second one is better than no vaccine


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> So, yes, even 1 shot with unknown timeframe for the second one is better than no vaccine


The science has also clearly shown that one shot gives a person significant protection. It's far better than having no shot.

One shot may be the difference between life and death, or between a serious case (tying up hospital beds) versus something you can recover from at home.


----------



## like_to_retire

AstraZeneca-Oxford developer blasts Canada's approach to vaccine, says 'messing around is going to cost lives'

_Oxford University regius professor of medicine Sir John Bell told CTV News’ Question Period, Canada’s approach to AstraZeneca use specifically is reflective of the country’s overall vaccine strategy: “acting on a lot of hearsay not facts.”

“What we can see is that the more people with a second dose, the more people will have antibody levels that are high enough to deal with the Indian variant, which is where we are at the moment, in the U.K. So my advice is get people two doses, as fast as you can and hunker down,” he said.

And on the mixing of vaccines, Bell, who has intimate knowledge of the study currently taking place at the University of Oxford, said initial findings show severe side effect outcomes.
“Our experience to date is that it produces pretty severe reactogenicity, so severe that we don't think that's going to be viable and by that I mean, you get your second dose if you flip it over, you'll get really sick, so I would not advise that,” he said._

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> AstraZeneca-Oxford developer blasts Canada's approach to vaccine, says 'messing around is going to cost lives'


From that article 
"And the second dose of AstraZeneca, which we now put in many, many millions of people who had a first dose of AstraZeneca, we’re not sure we can even find a single case of clotting problems. So, you know…this needs to be data driven."

The PM and leader of the opposition both took AZ, and they both want their second AZ shot. 
There is no real risk with this vaccine, and they both put their arms out to get the jab.

I really think the media and public have taken this AZ crap and ran with it, and it got out of control.
Hopefully the study will be done, and we'll get a good answer, but I'm a bit shocked that a second dose of the vaccine can make you sick, though I'm okay with a shot that makes me feel sick for a day or two if it stops a worse diesease.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> 18 y.o. daughter got Covid (probably her brother and parents also got it)


Keep us updated on the outcome. I am sure they gonna be fine. 
My neighbours had covid like two months ago, their impression was like a mild cold.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Keep us updated on the outcome. I am sure they gonna be fine.
> My neighbours had covid like two months ago, their impression was like a mild cold.


My parents neighbours had COVID about a month ago, and they said it was the worst they ever got, and they nearly died.

The thing is with single digit death and hospitalization rates, most people get over it just being sick. That's why data, not anecdotes matter.

It's funny that a 1000 in 100k death rate is "nobody" for COVID, but a 0.5 in 100k death rate for the vaccine is "too high".


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> data, not anecdotes matter.


0.2% including those with co morbidity , if you don’t have any that would be more like 0.002% negligible I would say.
Chances to get a cancer or die from cardiovascular disease are much higher. How many people try to avoid carcinogens and/or exercise routinely? Do media create that amount of noise around cancer and cardiovascular risks?
About 655,000 Americans die from *heart* disease each year


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> 0.2% including those with co morbidity , if you don’t have any that would be more like 0.002%


Care to support the 0.002% CFR?
That sounds pretty low, unless you classify almost everything as a comorbidity



> Chances to get a cancer or die from cardiovascular disease are much higher. How many people try to avoid carcinogens and/or exercise routinely? Do media create that amount of noise around cancer and cardiovascular risks?
> About 655,000 Americans die from *heart* disease each year


I agree, people are bad at assessing risk.


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> Do media create that amount of noise around cancer and cardiovascular risks?


Of course not ... but they certainly would if you could transmit those to others!


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Of course not ... but they certainly would if you could transmit those to others!


And of course saying "exercise" is almost a hate crime these days.
They keep cutting the minimum recommendations in the hope that people will do something.

The thing is COVID is uncontrollable, and therefore scary, just like terrorism.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

I found this information 
Residents will be *required* to know the date of their first immunization. That information was noted on the card presented at the first dose immunization, or if misplaced can be found by calling.

does this mean pharmacy won’t have access to the immunization records? virtually everyone can book for their second shot under the first shot umbrella, and be within 3-6 weeks required.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> I found this information
> Residents will be *required* to know the date of their first immunization. That information was noted on the card presented at the first dose immunization, or if misplaced can be found by calling.
> 
> does this mean pharmacy won’t have access to the immunization records? virtually everyone can book for their second shot under the first shot umbrella, and be within 3-6 weeks required.


I think they will check your OHIP card... so it may work and may not work..... but in any case, assume you got 2nd shot in Rexall (and 1st in some other clinic like UTM), how can you prove that you are fully vaccinated? You gonna have 2 different record that you got 1st shot.
If you just care to be fully vaccinated, it's fine,, but if you want to go abroad - it can be a problem....
P.S. Today I was buying staff in Rexall and ask regarding 2nd shot, they told me that I can have 2md shot only in the seme place I got the 1st one


----------



## Plugging Along

I am not sure if I should post here or separately. I want to give people little warning that the vaccines are NOT 100%, as we should all know already but some seem to forget.

My friend's parents just caught COVID both FULLY vaccinated (yes two shots) since March and follow all public health measures. The mom picked up her elderly neighbor )also fully vaccinated before them) from the hospital (recovering from a stroke), both were masked, drove them home, went home and sanitized. The neighbor fell and had an emergency a few days later and the mom went over (with mask) and waited for the paramedics for about 15 minutes, then went sanitized and went home. She developed COVID and passed it on to her husband is who is immunocompromised and was a low dose of anti-rejection drugs. In less than 48 he is now in the hospital in ICU in an induced coma and ventilator.

The parents are in the 70's and the neighbor in their 80's. ALL were fully vaccinated for almost 2 months. 2 are recovering fine, one may not make it. The doctors are saying that the the dad who was on low dose chemo drugs may have prevented any anti bodies from developing, so the dad is fighting for his life right now. The mom and neighbor feel like crap but are recovering. They were all doing everything right.

This is a just a reminder to still be careful especially around those who are immunocompromised. I am actually surprised 3 people fully vaccinated all got it.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Plugging Along said:


> The mom and neighbor feel like crap but are recovering.


 That is how my 90 year old grandparents felt with covid in Ukraine. Both refused to get vaccinated.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> That is how my 90 year old grandparents felt with covid in Ukraine. Both refused to get vaccinated.


Not sure if you were around, but I see you have no interest in supporting you're previous unsubstantiated claims.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> Care to support the 0.002% CFR?


From local radio.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> From local radio.


ahh so made up numbers from unverifiable sources...


----------



## Plugging Along

Ukrainiandude said:


> That is how my 90 year old grandparents felt with covid in Ukraine. Both refused to get vaccinated.


My point was they were both fully vaccinated for almost months since there last shot. If they weren’t vaccinated, there is a good chance that they would have died. In terms of the dad who is in ICU, I wanted to post that people still get the virus and become very sick,


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> From local radio.


Local radio are usually unsophisticated. I regularly hear them mixing up facts are riling up people. I remember in April they were telling people gas prices were going up 9 cents/L because of carbon tax. But is was increasing by 2 cents _to _9 cents/L. Details, details.


----------



## Synergy

Plugging Along said:


> My point was they were both fully vaccinated for almost months since there last shot. If they weren’t vaccinated, there is a good chance that they would have died. In terms of the dad who is in ICU, I wanted to post that people still get the virus and become very sick,


It's a great point. The problem is it goes in one ear and out the other! Everyone is so concerned about getting back to "normal" they convince themselves that the vaccine = immunity. People don't want to hear anything to the contrary. I hear it everyday. I hope I'm wrong but I wouldn't be surprised to see a 4th wave come the fall.


----------



## sags

I saw a simple graphic of how COVID spreads that explained it very well visually.

There were two balloons with a very narrow connection with each other. One side had a bunch of dots bouncing around (representing the virus).

For awhile they all bounced in the same balloon but eventually one managed to escape to the other balloon. It didn't take very long before both balloons were full of bouncing dots of COVID.

Any opening at all.........and COVID propagates. Survival is it's main focus and it searches for ways to spread to new hosts. It mutates to find ways to propagate.

I think this is a virus that has been clinically changed through gain of function experiments......to do exactly what it is doing and avoid eradication.

My theory could be wrong and it could be a natural evolution of the virus, but the effect is the same.


----------



## bgc_fan

cainvest said:


> See if they are comparing the vaccine percentage to the total population. If they are then it'll top out well below 100% because the below 18 age group isn't being vaccinated.


Found this from the CDC, where they break down the vaccine percentage by age group. COVID Data Tracker

So older than 18, US is at 59.8% (one dose) and 47.4% (two dose).

Don't know if the equivalent Canadian stats are spelled out somewhere.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> Found this from the CDC, where they break down the vaccine percentage by age group. COVID Data Tracker
> 
> So older than 18, US is at 59.8% (one dose) and 47.4% (two dose).
> 
> Don't know if the equivalent Canadian stats are spelled out somewhere.


Canadian second dose is still below 10%


----------



## Money172375

I got my AZ 3 weeks ago From a pharmacy. I jumped on the provincial website to see what would happen if I tried to book mRNA. Plus my kids are eligible soon, so I wanted to see how far out their shot would be.

in any event, the provincial website in Ontario wouldn’t allow me to book. it knows I took an AZ earlier. 
I know some people were curious if the pharmacy and ontario data was available to each other. So it looks like all shots are tacked centrally.


----------



## Beaver101

^ That's why the provincial government were having glitches on their portals earlier as they were "merging" data. 

Anyhow, this is my opinion (again)- anyone who got the first AZ dose without an adverse reaction (eg. the blood clot) should continue with the second doze of AZ, if they want to. This is less riskier than the "unknown mixing" reaction of different vaccines.

Re standard time out for the 2nd dose is 4 months unless advised/moved up by the provincial government pending supply of the vaccines.


----------



## Beaver101

Just noticed this news:

Tam says AstraZeneca recipients can choose second vaccine as Canada hits grim COVID-19 milestone



> _Chief Public Health Officer Dr. Theresa Tam says she expects Canadians who got Oxford-AstraZeneca in the first round of vaccinations will be able to choose which vaccine they get for their second dose.
> 
> Tam’s comments Tuesday come hours after a small Spanish study on mixing and matching vaccines reported that giving a Pfizer-BioNTech for the second dose after AstraZeneca is safe and produced a stronger immune response than a second dose of AstraZeneca.
> 
> The National Advisory Committee on Immunization is still awaiting further data from another mixing and matching study under way in the United Kingdom, but Tam said advice on second doses should be ready before most people are due to get their second vaccination.
> 
> “It is likely that people in Canada who’ve received one dose of AstraZeneca will have a choice for their second dose,” she said at a news conference from Ottawa.
> 
> Also on Tuesday, Canada reached the grim milestone of 25,000 total deaths from COVID-19 since the first fatality was reported on March 9, 2020. ... _


----------



## Money172375

Apparently you can drive to the US, get a shot, return to Canada without quarantine if your shot is “medically required”. some Conditions apply.


----------



## Money172375

I’m sure our pace will slow down, but according to Bloomberg, Canada will reach 75% vaccine penetration one month before the US will reach 75%.

trudeau says 75% is required before opening the border. So we’re looking at aug/sept.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> I’m sure our pace will slow down, but according to Bloomberg, Canada will reach 75% vaccine penetration one month before the US will reach 75%.
> 
> trudeau says 75% is required before opening the border. So we’re looking at aug/sept.


Can you provide links?!
IMHO, no US and no Canada will ever reach 75% fully vaccinated people .... Israel stopped at 63%, US is gonna have lower number, Canada probably close to Israel


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> Can you provide links?!
> IMHO, no US and no Canada will ever reach 75% fully vaccinated people .... Israel stopped at 63%, US is gonna have lower number, Canada probably close to Israel











More Than 12.7 Billion Shots Given: Covid-19 Tracker


Bloomberg counted up the shots administered in 184 countries and 59 US states and territories




www.bloomberg.com





this is assuming the current pace continues. I need to find a source for what I also saw in the news. That 85% of adult Canadians want to be vaccinated.


----------



## Money172375

This source says 80% of Canadians want vaccines. Fear of missing out is driving behaviour in many Canadians according to the new report I saw.









80% of Canadians plan to get COVID-19 vaccine, but safety fears drive hesitancy: poll


The number of people saying they'll get the shot has been steadily rising for months as vaccines have been rolling out in Canada and around the world




nationalpost.com


----------



## milhouse

Money172375 said:


> trudeau says 75% is required before opening the border. So we’re looking at aug/sept.


I couldn't tell from the articles I pulled up if that was 75% one shot or two shots. If one, then it's likely closer to Canada Day.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Money172375 said:


> Fear of missing out


On what? I think with number that high it makes perfect sense be safe by being surrounded with fully vaccinated people. So I am less worried about not getting my second shot, probably just gonna skip it. The first one made me tired, and sweating a lot.


----------



## gibor365

As per May 11








Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations - Statistics and Research


Our vaccination dataset uses the most recent official numbers from governments and health ministries worldwide. The population estimates we use to calculate per-capita metrics are all based on the last revision of the United Nations World Population Prospects. A full list of our country-specific...




ourworldindata.org




20% of Canadians Unvaccinated and not willing to get vaccinated , another 10% Unvaccinated and uncertain if willing to get vaccinated , add kids below 18 who just cannot get vaccinated..
Looks like except UK, no country is gonna have 75%+ vaccination rate


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> add kids below 18 who just cannot get vaccinated..


Try to keep up, vaccinations have been available for 12 and up now a while now.


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> Try to keep up, vaccinations have been available for 12 and up now a while now.


I've read that it's approved by FDA and Health Canada , but I don't think they started to give it to them...
Also, I'm not sure that research I've published included kids


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> I've read that it's approved by FDA and Health Canada , but I don't think they started to give it to them...


Sure have, know kids that already got their first shot last week.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Can you provide links?!
> IMHO, no US and no Canada will ever reach 75% fully vaccinated people .... Israel stopped at 63%, US is gonna have lower number, Canada probably close to Israel


I think Canada will be able to achieve 75%+ of adults. Children, we'll see.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Looks like I won’t be able to get my second shot within required time. Will be relying on herd immunity. 

For those younger than 45, eligibility for second dose will be based solely on the date of the first dose.

 *June 28:* First dose before May 1
 *July 5: *First dose before May 15
 *July 12:* First dose before May 30
 *July 19:* First dose before June 14
 *July 26:* First dose before June 28


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> Looks like I won’t be able to get my second shot within required time. Will be relying on herd immunity.
> 
> For those younger than 45, eligibility for second dose will be based solely on the date of the first dose.
> 
> *June 28:* First dose before May 1
> *July 5: *First dose before May 15
> *July 12:* First dose before May 30
> *July 19:* First dose before June 14
> *July 26:* First dose before June 28


Your call on the second shot but I don't understand the time table below ...


----------



## Ukrainiandude

cainvest said:


> Your call on the second shot but I don't understand the time table below ...


Someone who got their first dose before May 1, will be allowed to book second dose after June 28. And so on. 
Basically at least 8 weeks (in reality probably more) before one can get the second dose, vs required 3 weeks.


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> Someone who got their first dose before May 1, will be allowed to book second dose after June 28. And so on.
> Basically at least 8 weeks (in reality probably more) before one can get the second dose, vs required 3 weeks.


Is that for you area or province? Here we're still waiting on the age schedule for second shots.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Looks like I won’t be able to get my second shot within required time. Will be relying on herd immunity.
> 
> For those younger than 45, eligibility for second dose will be based solely on the date of the first dose.
> 
> *June 28:* First dose before May 1
> *July 5: *First dose before May 15
> *July 12:* First dose before May 30
> *July 19:* First dose before June 14
> *July 26:* First dose before June 28


Could you please give a source?! i got my Pfizer Apr 19, so you are telling that June 28 I can book a second dose?!

As per Trillium Health Partners where I received 1st dose, A_t this time, THP's plan is to administer second doses at the 16 week timeframe based on vaccine supply and direction from the province._
There are a couple of exception like_ : "all First Nations, Inuit and Métis adults and their household members. "_
Jews are actually is one of the First Nations, but not in Canada LOL


----------



## Plugging Along

gibor365 said:


> I've read that it's approved by FDA and Health Canada , but I don't think they started to give it to them...
> Also, I'm not sure that research I've published included kids


It was approved a few weeks ago. My 15 year oldot hers a few week ago, and my 12 year old ones tomorrow.


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> Sure have, know kids that already got their first shot last week.


Maybe in Manitoba you are more advanced , but in Ontario _The province has also said it plans to start vaccinating children aged 12 and older with the Pfizer-BioNTech shot from May 31 onwards _

Today's article
_








Ontario health units urge patience amid vaccine demand surge as all adults now eligible


Ontario health units are asking for patience and warning of limited COVID-19 vaccine appointments after all adults in the province became eligible for shots.




globalnews.ca




_


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> Maybe in Manitoba you are more advanced , but in Ontario _The province has also said it plans to start vaccinating children aged 12 and older with the Pfizer-BioNTech shot from May 31 onwards _
> 
> Today's article
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario health units urge patience amid vaccine demand surge as all adults now eligible
> 
> 
> Ontario health units are asking for patience and warning of limited COVID-19 vaccine appointments after all adults in the province became eligible for shots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


We were just informed by our school in Ontario For teens. Clinic will likely be held at the school mid June for first shot. Second shot 8 weeks later before school starts in sept.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Money172375 said:


> Second shot 8 weeks later before school starts in sept.


That should go over well with the vulnerable elderly still waiting for their 2nd shots.


----------



## sags

I get the feeling that getting one vaccination is like buying the cheapest travel insurance that doesn't cover anything.

We need to start giving the second shot or we could end up with nobody fully vaccinated.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I get the feeling that getting one vaccination is like buying the cheapest travel insurance that doesn't cover anything.
> 
> We need to start giving the second shot or we could end up with nobody fully vaccinated.


Your feelings directly contradict the data, does it take effort to be so wrong about so many issues?

70% protection against COVID19, 90% prevention of hospitalization, that's pretty darn good.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-19-vaccine-first-dose-protection-canada-1.6009822



A recent study in The Lancet looked at more than 23,000 vaccinated healthcare workers in the United Kingdom from December to February and found the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was at least 70 per cent effective at preventing COVID-19 three weeks after the first dose. 

Another Lancet study looked at more than 1.3 million people in Scotland during the same time period and found the Pfizer shot was more than 90 per cent effective at preventing hospitalization due to COVID-19 four to five weeks after the initial dose.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> directly contradict the data


 You know his is right, one shot is inefficient against variants.
This was posted already 


https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2104974




The study shows that Pfizer’s effectiveness against the British and South African variants are minimal after only one dose (29 per cent and 16.9 per cent, respectively), but become 89.5 per cent and 75 per cent effective, 14 days after the second dose.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> You know his is right, one shot is inefficient against variants.
> This was posted already
> 
> 
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2104974
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The study shows that Pfizer’s effectiveness against the British and South African variants are minimal after only one dose (29 per cent and 16.9 per cent, respectively), but become 89.5 per cent and 75 per cent effective, 14 days after the second dose.


We all know that it takes several days (even weeks) for a single dose to become effective.
It is important that their low single dose effectiveness is in that "building immunity" period.

From the author of the study you cite.
"But author Dr. Laith Jamal Abu-Raddad told CP24 on Thursday that Qatari health officials have followed Pfizer’s dosing direction, giving out second doses no more than 21 days after the first in most instances."

“The one-dose estimate we provided is strictly the efficacy in the first three weeks immediately after the first dose and it *should not be interpreted to mean the eventual efficacy after three or more weeks of the first dose,*”








Early efficacy of first Pfizer COVID-19 shot in new study doesn't disprove Canada's dosing strategy: author


The author of a new study that cast doubt on the early efficacy of the Pfizer-BioNech coronavirus vaccine against variants of concern says he believes the data is not applicable to the situation in Canada where doses are being spaced out by up to four months.




www.cp24.com


----------



## sags

The efficacy becomes lower over time. The vaccine makers say to follow the protocols.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> “The one-dose estimate we provided is strictly the efficacy in the first three weeks immediately after the first dose and it *should not be interpreted to mean the eventual efficacy after three or more weeks of the first dose,*”


It seems some have a hard time understanding that and incorrectly believe one shot isn't very effective.

Also, the CDC states the obvious about receiving second doses ...

_If you do receive your second shot of COVID-19 vaccine earlier or later than recommended, you do not have to restart the vaccine series._


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> It seems some have a hard time understanding that and incorrectly believe one shot isn't very effective.
> 
> Also, the CDC states the obvious about receiving second doses ...
> 
> _If you do receive your second shot of COVID-19 vaccine earlier or later than recommended, you do not have to restart the vaccine series._


People want to believe what they want to believe, and they don't actually read the studies.

In this case the author of the study specifically says "this does not mean single dose is not effective", but for some reason people cite the article (not the study) saying the exact opposite.
It's not the stats that are lying, it's the interpretation.


----------



## sags

The studies are all over the place. 

The vaccine manufacturers have been clear and unwavering........take the doses as prescribed.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The studies are all over the place. The health authorities have continually changed their protocols.


No the studies are pretty consistent. The issue is that people don't read or understand the studies. See the above thread on Ukraniandudes study. He made specific claims that the study author said are not supported by the study.

Yes the health authorities change their protocols, because that's what politicians do.



> But, the vaccine manufacturers have been clear and unwavering........take the doses as prescribed.


No, and no.
The vaccine manufacturers got their product approved, then basically stopped working on it. Their only goal is to get the product approved, they don't care beyond that.

Well of course we take them as prescribed, in Ontario they're prescribing a 4 month interval for most people.


----------



## sags

I want to follow the Pfizer approved protocol. You can go ahead and follow the Doug Ford approved protocol.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I want to follow the Pfizer approved protocol. You can go ahead and follow the Doug Ford approved protocol.


There is no Doug Ford approved protocol, vaccines are federally regulated.

So it's actually the
*National Advisory Committee on Immunization*
protocol, if you want to blame a politician, it would be Trudeau.

Finally there is nothing stopping you from following the Pfizer protocol, you just need to escape from the Canadian regulations which currently prevent you from doing so. But part of having a government monopoly on health care is you're subject to the whims of those in power.

But that's what you want? You want them to Federalize COVID19 response, this is what you get, provinces following the federal recommendations... and a 4 month period between vaccine doses.
You LITERALLY ASKED FOR THIS!!!


----------



## Ukrainiandude

cainvest said:


> CDC states


Same source.
You should get your second shot as close to the recommended 3-week or 4-week interval as possible. However, your second dose may be given up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose, if necessary. You should not get the second dose early. There is currently limited information on the effectiveness of receiving your second shot earlier than recommended or later than 6 weeks after the first shot.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Same source.
> You should get your second shot as close to the recommended 3-week or 4-week interval as possible. However, your second dose may be given up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose, if necessary. You should not get the second dose early. There is currently limited information on the effectiveness of receiving your second shot earlier than recommended or later than 6 weeks after the first shot.


Lots of data is supporting 2-3 month delays.








Evaluation of COVID-19 vaccination strategies with a delayed second dose


There are two widely used COVID-19 vaccination strategies; administering the two doses three to four weeks apart or delaying the administration of the second dose. A modelling study calibrated to COVID-19 spread and vaccination in the US shows that delaying the second dose can maximize the...




journals.plos.org




"Our results show that for Moderna vaccines, a delay of at least 9 weeks could maximize vaccination program effectiveness"

Sorry, I was against this, very strongly, but the data coming out now is very clear that the delay is a good idea.

I think it was a risky gamble, and they should not have done it with the data available at the time. (at least the public data)
But now that we have the data, it's clear that they guessed right.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> the data coming out


 Who knows what kind of data (good, bad or both) we might see in the coming years. For now I prefer to stick to the manufacturer requirements (or CDC).


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Who knows what kind of data (good, bad or both) we might see in the coming years. For now I prefer to stick to the manufacturer requirements (or CDC).


I think this post points out how ignorant you are.
The CDC doesn't approve vaccines.

Health Canada in Canada and the FDA in the US approve vaccines.

I fully support your right to choose what medical procedures you consent to.
I just think you're misinformed and wrong. That doesn't in any way diminish your rights.


----------



## sags

Mr. Matt follows Dr. Doug's recommendations.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> how ignorant you are.
> The CDC doesn't approve vaccines.
> 
> Health Canada in Canada and the FDA in the US approve vaccines.


We have been following the discussions and news reports about reducing the number of doses, extending the length of time between doses, changing the dose (half-dose), or mixing and matching vaccines in order to immunize more people against COVID-19. These are all reasonable questions to consider and evaluate in clinical trials. However, at this time, suggesting changes to the FDA-authorized dosing or schedules of these vaccines is premature and not rooted solidly in the available evidence. Without appropriate data supporting such changes in vaccine administration, we run a significant risk of placing public health at risk, undermining the historic vaccination efforts to protect the population from COVID-19.
The available data continue to support the use of two specified doses of each authorized vaccine at specified intervals. For the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine, the interval is 21 days between the first and second dose. And for the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine, the interval is 28 days between the first and second dose.
We have committed time and time again to make decisions based on data and science. *Until vaccine manufacturers have data and science supporting a change, we continue to strongly recommend that health care providers follow the FDA-authorized dosing schedule for each COVID-19 vaccine*.
But honestly I just don’t want to get those side effects again, supposedly even worse after the second dose.
The most commonly reported side effects in the adolescent clinical trial participants, which typically lasted 1-3 days, were pain at the injection site, tiredness, headache, chills, muscle pain, fever and joint pain. With the exception of pain at the injection site, more adolescents reported these side effects after the second dose than after the first dose, so it is important for vaccination providers and recipients to expect that there may be some side effects after either dose, but even more so after the second dose.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> misinformed


By FDA or CDC ?
Both strongly recommend to follow 28 days apart for Pfizer.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Mr. Matt follows Dr. Doug's recommendations.


Actually I'm following the NACI approved vaccination schedule.
But hey, don't let facts get in the way of your opinion.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> Mr. Matt follows Dr. Doug's recommendations.


Sags following Trudeau's instructions.










ltr


----------



## Spudd

With AstraZeneca, they say the first dose is worse for side effects than the second. It's the opposite with the mRNA vaccines.


----------



## MrMatt

Spudd said:


> With AstraZeneca, they say the first dose is worse for side effects than the second. It's the opposite with the mRNA vaccines.


That's part of the reason they think the first dose of AZ is so effective.


----------



## james4beach

Here is a very nice video with an immunology expert from McGill explaining the effectiveness of a single vaccine dose. He also talks about the vaccination interval, and how to think about getting the second (booster shot).

He describes the same thing that the BCCDC described, which I think is scientifically sound: there is no precise timing requirement for second vaccine doses. The manufacturer kind of guesses at it, and typically for vaccines it doesn't matter too much when you get the second dose.


----------



## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> He describes the same thing that the BCCDC described, which I think is scientifically sound: there is no precise timing requirement for second vaccine doses. The manufacturer kind of guesses at it, and typically for vaccines it doesn't matter too much when you get the second dose.


In fairness, manufacturers only really had the chance to test one interval. If they had a longer time for testing (like for traditional vaccine development), they would have been able to determine what was really the optimal time between doses.


----------



## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> In fairness, manufacturers only really had the chance to test one interval. If they had a longer time for testing (like for traditional vaccine development), they would have been able to determine what was really the optimal time between doses.


At least they tested it! But Canada decided to experiment and to go to uncarted area hoping that it will work! So irresponsible! Now they are trying to backup their decision with some new studies LOL


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> In fairness, manufacturers only really had the chance to test one interval. If they had a longer time for testing (like for traditional vaccine development), they would have been able to determine what was really the optimal time between doses.


I think they don't care.
You get the drug approved and move on.

Really what is the commercial incentive to get a different interval?


----------



## bgc_fan

gibor365 said:


> At least they tested it! But Canada decided to experiment and to go to uncarted area hoping that it will work! So irresponsible! Now they are trying to backup their decision with some new studies LOL


So, Canada wasn't the first, nor the only. U.K. decided to increase the delays was in January, following their recommendation in December. CDC in the US updated their recommendations in January as well, allowing up to 6 weeks between shots. Canada only released their guidelines in March. 



MrMatt said:


> I think they don't care.
> You get the drug approved and move on.
> 
> Really what is the commercial incentive to get a different interval?


They would have other variables to work with as well: including dosage, effectiveness against variants, long-term side-effects. If, for example, you had a longer interval and fewer side-effects, then you'll have more people inclined to take the second dose. As it is, there is a minority in the US who haven't gotten their second dose for various reasons. I imagine a big one is the fact that for mRNA vaccines, the second dose appears to have more severe side-effects.


----------



## zinfit

I know of many people who got the second dose of Pfizer and Moderna last winter in Texas. Not one indicated any problems with the second dose. What is concerning is the fact that many thousands of Canadians could be accessing the second dose in the USA if governments on both sides of the border would get out of the way. This is where excessive and incompetent government policies are the problem and not the solution.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> I know of many people who got the second dose of Pfizer and Moderna last winter in Texas. Not one indicated any problems with the second dose. What is concerning is the fact that many thousands of Canadians could be accessing the second dose in the USA if governments on both sides of the border would get out of the way. This is where excessive and incompetent government policies are the problem and not the solution.


But the reason that the vaccine exists and is so available in the US is because the government ordered them to do so.

So government interference made the vaccine highly available in the first place.

Your'e trying to have it both ways.

Also I do think that Canadas restriction on heath care access is unconstitutional under the right of the individual to life. But you know how judges can't read.


----------



## sags

People will have to take vaccination in the US up with the US authorities.

Maybe if they send the US a sternly worded letter that would open up the border........nah, it wouldn't.


----------



## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> So, Canada wasn't the first, nor the only. U.K. decided to increase the delays was in January, following their recommendation in December. CDC in the US updated their recommendations in January as well, allowing up to 6 weeks between shots. Canada only released their guidelines in March.
> 
> 
> 
> They would have other variables to work with as well: including dosage, effectiveness against variants, long-term side-effects. If, for example, you had a longer interval and fewer side-effects, then you'll have more people inclined to take the second dose. As it is, there is a minority in the US who haven't gotten their second dose for various reasons. I imagine a big one is the fact that for mRNA vaccines, the second dose appears to have more severe side-effects.


Sure CDC states UP to 6 weeks interval, but not 16 weeks! As per NACI 16 weeks decision was pure math, expected supply divide number of people.
AFAIK, UK increased up to 3 months only for AZ, same did Spain (only for AZ and only for people younger than 60 y.o). And 3 vs 4 months is a big difference


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Sure CDC states UP to 6 weeks interval, but not 16 weeks! As per NACI 16 weeks decision was pure math, expected supply divide number of people.
> AFAIK, UK increased up to 3 months only for AZ, same did Spain (only for AZ and only for people younger than 60 y.o). *And 3 vs 4 months is a big difference*


Care to provide any data on this? Unless you have immune system problems I don't think they've found any decrease in protection.

Plus I got AZ, I'll get my second dose as soon as the government releases their stockpile..


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> Care to provide any data on this? Unless you have immune system problems I don't think they've found any decrease in protection.
> 
> Plus I got AZ, I'll get my second dose as soon as the government releases their stockpile..


I've read that UK did some trials for AZ extending 2nd dose to up for 3 months. Nobody tested 4 months interval and increasing interval by 25% it's rather significant.
btw, I've never heard any country extended intervals for Pfizer or Moderna more than 6 weeks.

Again, maybe we gonna get lucky and 4 months won't be too bad , so it's a gamble , pretty dangerous imho. Or maybe we'll get 2nd dose earlier than it's currently scheduled (esp considering that there are a lot of extra vaccines in States).
In any case, 4.5 weeks passed from my 1st Pfizer shot


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> btw, I've never heard any country extended intervals for Pfizer or Moderna more than 6 weeks


I'm not suprised by that, you didn't even know they were vaccinating 12-17 yr olds here in Canada.


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> btw, I've never heard any country extended intervals for Pfizer or Moderna more than 6 weeks.





cainvest said:


> I'm not suprised by that, you didn't even know they were vaccinating 12-17 yr olds here in Canada.


gibor365, I thought you knew that Canada was extending out to 4 months, it's all over the news, some users here are even complaining about it.


----------



## bgc_fan

gibor365 said:


> Sure CDC states UP to 6 weeks interval, but not 16 weeks! As per NACI 16 weeks decision was pure math, expected supply divide number of people.
> AFAIK, UK increased up to 3 months only for AZ, same did Spain (only for AZ and only for people younger than 60 y.o). And 3 vs 4 months is a big difference


So, maybe, or maybe not. Sometimes there's a decision that has to be made, either hold onto the second dose, or give everyone the first dose ASAP. 

But given that supply issues are starting to get resolved, I imagine that the second doses are going to be moved up.


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> I'm not suprised by that, you didn't even know they were vaccinating 12-17 yr olds here in Canada.


I gave you link earlier that in Ontario 12-17 yr old will start to get vaccine starting May 31...so stop BSing


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> gibor365, I thought you knew that Canada was extending out to 4 months, it's all over the news, some users here are even complaining about it.


I meant no country except Canada and you knew exactly what I meant


----------



## gibor365

Just read Ontario re-opening plan.... It's so dumb! So, they expecting 80% eligible ppl to be vaccinated to really start reopen ?! As per latest stats 20% don't want to be vaccinated at all and 10% are uncertain.....so there is no chance 80% would be ever vaccinated !
Israel below 63% of vaccinated and long time ago opened practically everything. with just 590 active cases (62 serious)


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> Just read Ontario re-opening plan.... It's so dumb! So, they expecting 80% eligible ppl to be vaccinated to really start reopen ?! As per latest stats 20% don't want to be vaccinated at all and 10% are uncertain.....so there is no chance 80% would be ever vaccinated !


That's smart! Will push people to go get the shot or they don't re-open. If they wanted to really stretch it they could have said 80% fully vaccinated!


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Just read Ontario re-opening plan.... It's so dumb! So, they expecting 80% eligible ppl to be vaccinated to really start reopen ?! As per latest stats 20% don't want to be vaccinated at all and 10% are uncertain.....so there is no chance 80% would be ever vaccinated !
> Israel below 63% of vaccinated and long time ago opened practically everything. with just 590 active cases (62 serious)


That's because they closed their borders.

Most of the countries with low cases closed their borders.


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> I gave you link earlier that in Ontario 12-17 yr old will start to get vaccine starting May 31...so stop BSing


No BSing ... you did say ....


gibor365 said:


> I've read that it's approved by FDA and Health Canada , but I don't think they started to give it to them...


And yes, the shots were already being given ... just maybe not in your area.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> That's because they closed their borders.
> 
> Most of the countries with low cases closed their borders.


They didn't! Everyone who got vaccinated in Israel and coming back from abroad don't need any quarantine (except several countries like Ukraine, India, Brazil) ... others should be in quarantine with some exception (but hotel quarantine is optional)... for example, last several months there are 3 daily flights Tel-Aviv too Dubai


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> No BSing ... you did say ....
> 
> And yes, the shots were already being given ... just maybe not in your area.


I was talking specifically of Ontario where shots will be given only on May 31 and ON is practically half of Canada...
P.S. Sorry to say....but Manitoba is ..... Manitoba


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> They didn't!


They closed the borders to everyone, now that vaccination is widespread they are loosening the restrictions.
I think Canada is mostly imported variants at this point, our refusal to close the borders cost lives, and prolonged this.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> They closed the borders to everyone, now that vaccination is widespread they are loosening the restrictions.
> I think Canada is mostly imported variants at this point, our refusal to close the borders cost lives, and prolonged this.


I don;t want to argue, but AFAIR , I could've always fly to Israel and would need 14 days quarantine in hotel or with electronic bracelet in specific address....
IMHO, looking at Israel success , Canada just need to implement exact measure Israel was implementing and if don;t want to open everything like Texas did


----------



## andrewf

G


gibor365 said:


> I was talking specifically of Ontario where shots will be given only on May 31 and ON is practically half of Canada...
> P.S. Sorry to say....but Manitoba is ..... Manitoba


Gibor the professional goal post mover.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> G
> 
> Gibor the professional goal post mover.


Nah! Gibor is a former police investigator, every 2nd day appearing in the court LOL


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Just read Ontario re-opening plan.... It's so dumb! So, they expecting 80% eligible ppl to be vaccinated to really start reopen ?! As per latest stats 20% don't want to be vaccinated at all and 10% are uncertain.....so there is no chance 80% would be ever vaccinated !
> Israel below 63% of vaccinated and long time ago opened practically everything. with just 590 active cases (62 serious)


Because Israel closed the borders and cut off the variants.

Really you keep skipping over the significantly different government restriction they have.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> They closed the borders to everyone, now that vaccination is widespread they are loosening the restrictions.
> I think Canada is mostly imported variants at this point, our refusal to close the borders cost lives, and prolonged this.


Doesn't match up with third wave cases in Europe and elsewhere which are lower. The third wave spike is basically a domestic pandemic and reflects are slow vaccine rollout as a comparison with the USA shows. Countries with rigorous border controls are experiencing a serious spike in cases . Japan is a good example. I believe the testing at land crossings is something like .25 and I am certain none of that group was vaccinated. In any event the land crossers must still quarantine at home for 14 days with ongoing surveillance and must get another negative PCR test before they can get out of quarantine. I am not sure of any more draconian police state tactics could be employed with the major airports. A total ban would be struck down in the courts in short order. Section 6 of the Charter gives Canadians right of entry. At this stage I believe the border restrictions should be lifted for USA/Canada travel for people who have been fully vaccinated. Ford with his clamouring for more travel restrictions is in a competition with Trudeau on the stupidity scale.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> A total ban would be struck down in the courts in short order. Section 6 of the Charter gives Canadians right of entry.


The courts struck down your right to freedom of association because they like unions.
I think reasonable restrictions on entry would be just fine.


----------



## andrewf

Regardless of vaccinations, if cases decline to manageable levels, restrictions will be eased. No need to panic. Tying it to vaccinations helps with messaging to encourage vaccination.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Regardless of vaccinations, if cases decline to manageable levels, restrictions will be eased. No need to panic. Tying it to vaccinations helps with messaging to encourage vaccination.


I like how Ontario included second doses in their plan.
It's important, because you have goofballs like Trudeau saying we only need 1 shot.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> I like how Ontario included second doses in their plan.
> It's important, because you have goofballs like Trudeau saying we only need 1 shot.


Agreed the second dose improves the protection at a very significant level.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Agreed the second dose improves the protection at a very significant level.


I don't actually agree with that.
I think that a single dose gives good protection, I actually think might be enough if EVERYONE got a single dose.
But we expect only 60-80% will get one dose.
also saying "one dose is enough" might contribute to vaccine hesitancy for the second dose, which is a problem.

The problem again is the mixed messaging, we need people to get both doses as soon as we can.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> I think that a single dose gives good protection, I actually think might be enough if EVERYONE got a single dose.


lol, now you're sending mixed messaging?

You can't play both sides of the fence ... just like you were complaining that supposely Trudeau did ...


----------



## gibor365

> Ford with his clamouring for more travel restrictions is in a competition with Trudeau on the stupidity scale.


 Well said!


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> might be enough if EVERYONE got a single dose.


Could not agree more.


----------



## like_to_retire

Ukrainiandude said:


> Could not agree more.


Couldn't agree less. The first dose of the vaccine only starts the process of building up protection which decreases over time. The second dose greatly reinforces this protection as there is a much stronger and longer lasting immune response. Getting both doses of these vaccines maximizes your ability to receive full immunity. Why would anyone want to be partially vaccinated............

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> lol, now you're sending mixed messaging?
> 
> You can't play both sides of the fence ... just like you were complaining that supposely Trudeau did ...


No
I think a single dose might actually be enough IF EVERYONE GOT IT. 
If only 70% get it, we really need almost all of them to have both shots.

The problem is that 70% get their first shot, but no second shot, they just sit back because "one shot summer", and COVID is allowed to circulate.

I agree with the basic content of what Trudeau said, but any nuance in the messaging is lost, which is the problem.
Go back to March 2020, I was actually commenting that sticking to only 1 or two simple points per news conference is a good plan.

Keep it simple and straightforward. The biggest problem we have is that people are starting to splatter all over the map with what they're saying, and the people are getting confused.
Trudeau should be saying "the requirements to open will be made by the local health authorities, and we will do our best to get as much vaccine as possible to the people"
He shouldn't be commenting on lockdown restrictions, it's not his jurisdiction and it's not helping.


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> Couldn't agree less. The first dose of the vaccine only starts the process of building up protection which decreases over time. The second dose greatly reinforces this protection as there is a much stronger and longer lasting immune response. Getting both doses of these vaccines maximizes your ability to receive full immunity. Why would anyone want to be partially vaccinated............
> 
> ltr


The data right now is starting to suggest that the vaccine protection is much longer lived than initially thought, I think AZ has some of the longer test data, which is really good, particularly for India.

I think some people won't bother if they feel that 1 shot is good enough, which is what my concern with the mixed messages. It's simple laziness, or "more important things to do".


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> The courts struck down your right to freedom of association because they like unions.
> I think reasonable restrictions on entry would be just fine.


Right of entry is an absolute right. It would be beyond all reason to expect a court to uphold such a ban. At some point the big government, nanny state thinking has to be reversed. Security without liberty is tyranny.


----------



## gibor365

IMHO, instead of giving 1st dose to kids 12+, they should've give 2nd dose to 70-75+ or at least to give it 50/50


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Right of entry is an absolute right. It would be beyond all reason to expect a court to uphold such a ban. At some point the big government, nanny state thinking has to be reversed. Security without liberty is tyranny.


A temporary quarantine to prevent the spread of a communicable disease. There is a reason the Quarantine act, which is in place hasn't been successfully challenged.


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> IMHO, instead of giving 1st dose to kids 12+, they should've give 2nd dose to 70-75+ or at least to give it 50/50


Maybe, but are they trying to stop spread, or protect individuals?


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> I don't actually agree with that.
> I think that a single dose gives good protection, I actually think might be enough if EVERYONE got a single dose.
> But we expect only 60-80% will get one dose.
> also saying "one dose is enough" might contribute to vaccine hesitancy for the second dose, which is a problem.
> 
> The problem again is the mixed messaging, we need people to get both doses as soon as we can.


The level of effeteness and the duration of the protection is longer and more sustainable. There is lots of data and research supporting that position.


----------



## Plugging Along

gibor365 said:


> IMHO, instead of giving 1st dose to kids 12+, they should've give 2nd dose to 70-75+ or at least to give it 50/50


One could argue that if you are able to protect


gibor365 said:


> IMHO, instead of giving 1st dose to kids 12+, they should've give 2nd dose to 70-75+ or at least to give it 50/50


One could argue that there is pretty 'decent' protection after one shot, and that the there is a decrease in severe outcomes and transmission after one shot. Those who are 70+ don't NEED to go out any where. Those 12+ MUST go to school. By vaccinating those younger, it also starts to reduce the spread. As you posted already the impacts of mental health on teens, school age kids need to get back to 'normal' too. The impacts of these lockdowns will impact youth for decades, I don't think you can say that for 70+ year olds. 

Each person vaccinated, even if it's one shot reduces the transmission.


----------



## gibor365

Plugging Along said:


> One could argue that if you are able to protect
> 
> 
> One could argue that there is pretty 'decent' protection after one shot, and that the there is a decrease in severe outcomes and transmission after one shot. Those who are 70+ don't NEED to go out any where. Those 12+ MUST go to school. By vaccinating those younger, it also starts to reduce the spread. As you posted already the impacts of mental health on teens, school age kids need to get back to 'normal' too. The impacts of these lockdowns will impact youth for decades, I don't think you can say that for 70+ year olds.
> 
> Each person vaccinated, even if it's one shot reduces the transmission.


Believe it or not, my mom and my MIL who are 75 yo are also going to school (ESL one). For them, this is the one way to socialize with other people.

however, I definitely agree that "The impacts of these lockdowns will impact youth for decades"

On the other hand, I'm completely unsure if kids need those vaccines at all! I just discussed it with my wife and we agreed that if out kids would be below 16 yo, we wouldn't give them vaccine...
Our 19 y.o. daughter and dozen of her friends 16-20 ages had vaccine, for everyone it was like some kind of cold...
Our daughter decided to take vaccine as she wants to travel (as well as our 25 yo), but they are adults, so they have their own judgement that we respect

btw, we've never taken flu shot and never gave them to our kids


----------



## Ukrainiandude

like_to_retire said:


> Couldn't agree less. The first dose of the vaccine


Governments can’t provide the second dose in 3 weeks as required by Pfizer. Therefore I have to go with one dose. Not my fault, sorry mate.


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> Governments can’t provide the second dose in 3 weeks as required by Pfizer. Therefore I have to go with one dose. Not my fault, sorry mate.


Definitely not your fault ... but it is "your choice" to skip the second shot.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

cainvest said:


> skip the second shot.


I won’t skip if it is provided in three weeks as required by Pfizer. The officials should have read the manual before deciding on the first dose for general population. I have no intention going against the manual.


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> I won’t skip if it is provided in three weeks as required by Pfizer. The officials should have read the manual before deciding on the first dose for general population. I have no intention going against the manual.


The delay for second doses was well known, again it's your choice to skip the second shot. I know you've said before that you are afraid of the potential second shot side effects and that's your call to make. Personally I don't know anyone who will skip it when it's available.


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> . Personally I don't know anyone who will skip it when it's available.


I agree! Obviously, it's better to er ut ASAP, but we don;t decide here..... better to get 2nd dose even in 16 weeks, than don't get it at all....


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Governments can’t provide the second dose in 3 weeks as required by Pfizer. Therefore I have to go with one dose. Not my fault, sorry mate.


Actually you could have waited until there were enough doses to get your shots 3 weeks apart, but even you realize that getting protected ASAP was best.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> even you realize that getting protected ASAP was best


Not really. For some stupid reason I had three months of covishield and Astra Zeneca in mind, thought I should be able to get it in three months. My family in Ukraine got Astra Zeneca, that probably why I had it messed up.
ps. My 90 year old grandparents got over with covid. why would I be concerned with it?


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> My 90 year old grandparents got over with covid. why would I be concerned with it?


If you believe you'll be fine without a second shot because you grandparents survived, go ahead ... play the covid lottery. I know it won't make any difference but I'll ask anyway just for fun ... do you know any health authority (CDC, Health Canada, etc) or two-shot vaccine maker (pfizer, moderna) that specifically says ... Don't take a delayed second shot?


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> If you believe you'll be fine without a second shot because you grandparents survived, go ahead ... play the covid lottery. I know it won't make any difference but I'll ask anyway just for fun ... do you know any health authority (CDC, Health Canada, etc) or two-shot vaccine maker (pfizer, moderna) that specifically says ... Don't take a delayed second shot?


To be honest , its one big lottery on both sides.
CDC said take 2nd dose up to 6 weeks, they don't care that NACI (btw, not Health Canada!) told us to wait 4 months...

If Ukraniandude is below 65-70 y.o and relatively healthy, he has much more chances to die from car accident than from Covid....Only in ON about 600 people died in road accidents in 2020 (would you advise him not to drive?!)


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-provincial-police-traffic-collisions-down-fatalities-up-1.5952037


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> To be honest , its one big lottery on both sides.


You're missing the point ... if the second shot can decrease your chances of getting covid, even say by 10% or extend its useful effective time for many more months regardless of when its given ... why not take it? AFAIK, nobody is saying "Don't take the shot if you're past the recommend time interval".

I do agree that after having one shot (and I've already mentioned this to Ukraniandude before) you odds are pretty darn low (at least in the short term) of getting seriously ill or dying. But still, for one more needle you stack the odds more in your favor. I do respect that everyone needs to decide for themselves.


----------



## Plugging Along

gibor365 said:


> Believe it or not, my mom and my MIL who are 75 yo are also going to school (ESL one). For them, this is the one way to socialize with other people.
> 
> however, I definitely agree that "The impacts of these lockdowns will impact youth for decades"


I look at that as a choice for you mom and mil to take classes. It's not essential to do it now. Its not a choice for kids to get an education. I look at each of our actions and determine if it's really necessary or not, and what is the larger impact. 



gibor365 said:


> On the other hand, I'm completely unsure if kids need those vaccines at all! I just discussed it with my wife and we agreed that if out kids would be below 16 yo, we wouldn't give them vaccine...
> Our 19 y.o. daughter and dozen of her friends 16-20 ages had vaccine, for everyone it was like some kind of cold...
> Our daughter decided to take vaccine as she wants to travel (as well as our 25 yo), but they are adults, so they have their own judgement that we respect
> 
> btw, we've never taken flu shot and never gave them to our kids


My 12 yr got her shot earlier this week, my 15 year old, at the beginning of the month. I have usually follow our dr's recommendation after I have researched for this and the flu shots. We have almost always gotten the flu shot. We know lots of people that have had COVID, most have been fine. However, it was a teenager that brought it home, which infected their parent who was a staff member at my mom's care facility. 8 people died. I know many people where they got it from their kids and then passed it on. 

I am not worried that my kids will have severe effects. We get vaccinated for both our protection and the protections of of other around us. My kids' teacher cannot get vaccinated, so we vaccinate for her too. I have taught my kids to think about not only themselves by those around them. That's what keeps them going when they hear that their friends are all going out, and it's hard when my kids are missing out, but they understand that sometimes they have to do the right thing for the greater good. 

I think I know very well both sides from being sandwiched in taking care of my elderly parents, and having teens and tweens at home. I have to balance very carefully keeping our parents safe through our actions and keeping my kids mental health intact. Wearing a mask, social distancing, and getting vacinated is all a part of that.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> I do agree that after having one shot (and I've already mentioned this to Ukraniandude before) you odds are pretty darn low (at least in the short term) of getting seriously ill or dying. But still, for one more needle you stack the odds more in your favor.


The way I understand this, after watching talks from a few vaccine experts: yes, one shot protects you immediately (after 2 weeks to build up immunity) and you're quite well protected for several months, at least. The second shot is to strengthen your immunity, but it also *extends* the immunity by making the immune system generate a different kind of cell (memory B-cells).

These cells that are generated after a second shot provide a more lasting immunity, thanks to these special memory B-cells.

So a second shot isn't just "turning up the dial" of the same protection. As I understand it, the booster shot triggers a process in the immune system.

I think that if you look at the blood from a one-shot person versus a two-shot person, there are notable differences. The two-shot person doesn't just have more cells that can neutralize the pathogen. They also have a different mix of immune cells (that have different capabilities), including some that the one-shot person doesn't have.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

cainvest said:


> second shot can decrease your chances of getting covid


*Study says those who have had COVID-19 may need just one dose of the vaccine*


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> To be honest , its one big lottery on both sides.
> CDC said take 2nd dose up to 6 weeks, they don't care that NACI (btw, not Health Canada!) told us to wait 4 months...
> 
> If Ukraniandude is below 65-70 y.o and relatively healthy, he has much more chances to die from car accident than from Covid....Only in ON about 600 people died in road accidents in 2020 (would you advise him not to drive?!)
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-provincial-police-traffic-collisions-down-fatalities-up-1.5952037


No, but I'd advise him to wear his seatbelt.

The question is this particular action a net benefit or not.
For COVID, I think the vaccine makes this better for me, so I took it.

You realize NACI reports through Health Canada right?


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Study says those who have had COVID-19 may need just one dose of the vaccine*


Can you provide link?! Need to show it to my daughter who had Covid and later 1st Pfizer dose....Would she be considered fully vaccinated?


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> You realize NACI reports through Health Canada right?


Not sure through whom they report, but NACI and Health Canada can have contradictory statements.
for example: _This latest announcement from NACI appears to contradict Health Canada’s oft-repeated guidance to Canadians that the best vaccine is the first one available to them. _

or regarding intervals between vaccines
_This advice (NACI) is in contrast with what Health Canada’s authorization of these vaccines initially indicated: that the second Pfizer dose was to be delivered around 21 days after the first, that the second Moderna shot was to be given around 28 days after the first, and that the AstraZeneca second dose should be given between four and 12 weeks after the first. _


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Not sure through whom they report, but NACI and Health Canada can have contradictory statements.


yes they can.
That's the way it works, different people can have different opinions.

Heck some people often make contradictory claims in the same statement.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> Can you provide link?!





https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1900132419986


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> yes they can.
> That's the way it works, different people can have different opinions.
> 
> Heck some people often make contradictory claims in the same statement.


Regards to invervals ... I think Health Canada when authorizing vaccine cannot recommend to extend intervals and should follow producers recommendation...
Here is NACI comes


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Regards to invervals ... I think Health Canada when authorizing vaccine cannot recommend to extend intervals and should follow producers recommendation...
> Here is NACI comes


Why?
Really, if they review the data, and come to the conclusion that it is appropriate, why not?

Remember approving a vaccine from a manufacturer is simply reviewing the data and decide if it is appropriate to approve or not.

This is basically how they approve EVERY treatment or therapy. You seem to have this specific hangup that even though the data says it's fine, it's a problem.


----------



## sags

Pfizer still endorses their vaccination protocol. Anything else is just unqualified BS.

Get the 2nd doses rolling out now.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> Pfizer still endorses their vaccination protocol. Anything else is just unqualified BS.


According to Pfizer protocol get second dose in 3 weeks. I can’t get it in three weeks. So I have to opt out.


----------



## zinfit

Ukrainiandude said:


> Governments can’t provide the second dose in 3 weeks as required by Pfizer. Therefore I have to go with one dose. Not my fault, sorry mate.


Would have been no.problem if you could have crossed the border for your second shot.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

zinfit said:


> Would have been no.problem if you could have crossed the border for your second shot.


I live in Saskatoon, and I really don’t see myself driving 8 hours (including returning) to the border. And don’t feel like splurging on the airplane fair.


----------



## zinfit

Ukrainiandude said:


> I live in Saskatoon, and I really don’t see myself driving 8 hours (including returning) to the border. And don’t feel like splurging on the airplane fair.


80 % of Canada's population is within a hundred miles of the USA border. Choose your poison a few hours on the road to get full vaccination or the risk of spending 28 days in an ICU with a ventilator. Life isn't easy but making hard choices is part of the job.


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> I live in Saskatoon, and I really don’t see myself driving 8 hours (including returning) to the border. And don’t feel like splurging on the airplane fair.


You could be fine, maybe Saskatoon doesn't have many covid cases or variants.


----------



## sags

zinfit said:


> 80 % of Canada's population is within a hundred miles of the USA border. Choose your poison a few hours on the road to get full vaccination or the risk of spending 28 days in an ICU with a ventilator. Life isn't easy but making hard choices is part of the job.


Problem is the US won't let Canadians in for a vaccination.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

zinfit said:


> Choose your poison a few hours on the road to get full vaccination or the risk of spending 28 days in an ICU with a ventilator.


 I might get into the car accident while driving, equal chances. Probably car accident is even higher. Again I got the first shot, i am not obese, and I am not in the age risk group.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> I might get into the car accident while driving, equal chances. Probably car accident is even higher. Again I got the first shot, i am not obese, and I am not in the age risk group.


Not sure about SK, but definitely in ON ... just check stats


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Regards to invervals ... I think Health Canada when authorizing vaccine cannot recommend to extend intervals and should follow producers recommendation...


You're wrong.
Health Canada is free to recommend whatever they want.
They are pretty much the lead authority here.

Really it's crazy that you think foreign, for profit drug companies should be telling Canada what is acceptable or not.


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> Problem is the US won't let Canadians in for a vaccination.


That is problem of our own creation. We insisted that only essential workers could enter Canada. The US reciprocated. The US would change that position in a heartbeat if we dropped our obstructionists position. Manitoba and Alberta got the USA to drop the restrictions to get a wide range of essential workers vaccinated. Leadership isn't a Trudeau strong suit. The US has no restrictions on air travel.


----------



## Money172375

Ontario administered a million shots last week. I’m not a huge Ford fan, but he was right….this has been a supply issue up until Now. The capacity to administer here seems very strong. That being said, I tried to register my teens and the clinic here is full until June 10 with no ability to book beyond that.
will wait for the planned school rollout in June and august.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Ontario administered a million shots last week. I’m not a huge Ford fan, but he was right….this has been a supply issue up until Now. The capacity to administer here seems very strong. That being said, I tried to register my teens and the clinic here is full until June 10 with no ability to book beyond that.
> will wait for the planned school rollout in June and august.


To be fair, June 10 isn't even 3 weeks, and again I think it's still a supply/logitistics issue.


----------



## sags

Open more vaccination centers. It is obvious there is vaccine but no vaccinators.........when there are long lineups at pharmacies.


----------



## sags

Some places are creating their own vaccination center setups in hockey rinks to process more people.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Money172375 said:


> full until June 10


Here in Saskatoon, if you are okay with one hour driving, there are plenty of slots for May 25-26. But only for the first dose.
Vaccine is like new iPhone, eventually market gets saturated and people lose interest. I wonder how many first dosers will be persistent enough to get the second dose in two months or so.


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> I wonder how many first dosers will be persistent enough to get the second dose in two months or so.


Depends, probably a few of the biggest factors will be

How many daily new cases there are
If it's a requirement for Int. travel and they want to go somewhere
What level of risk they are (age, health)

Everyone I know will get the second asap.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

cainvest said:


> Everyone I know will get the second asap.


Yeah, what people say and what people do, different things. Everyone that I know was so eager to get the first dose. Guess what, only 6 in 10 got it so far. Rest are “planning“ to get one in fall.


----------



## like_to_retire

Ukrainiandude said:


> Rest are “planning“ to get one in fall.


What do they say they're waiting for?

ltr


----------



## Ukrainiandude

cainvest said:


> for Int. travel


 I wonder, if the person got their second shot several months after the first. Will they be considered fully vaccinated and eligible for covid passport?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

like_to_retire said:


> What do they say they're waiting for?
> 
> ltr


Some are waiting for the vaccine “upgrade” with new variants. Others just hate the rush and some difficulty with booking within ”walking“ distance. Several just want to get second shot within three weeks, so are waiting for the wider second shot eligibility rollouts.


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> Yeah, what people say and what people do, different things. Everyone that I know was so eager to get the first dose. Guess what, only 6 in 10 got it so far. Rest are “planning“ to get one in fall.


Well that's the difference, everyone I know who said they'd get the first shot asap actually did get it asap. Everyone's circle of friends will be different and really depends on the type(s) of people they are.


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> I wonder, if the person got their second shot several months after the first. Will they be considered fully vaccinated and eligible for covid passport?


Don't see any reason why they wouldn't be considered fully vaccinated.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> I won’t skip if it is provided in three weeks as required by Pfizer. The officials should have read the manual before deciding on the first dose for general population. I have no intention going against the manual.


Isn't not getting a second dose, ever, also going against the 'manual'?


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> Don't see any reason why they wouldn't be considered fully vaccinated.


His point that Covid passport for international travel can be invalid if intervals between shots are longer than pharma or CDC guidance ...but I doubt it


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Can you provide link?! Need to show it to my daughter who had Covid and later 1st Pfizer dose....Would she be considered fully vaccinated?


I see no harm in getting the second dose anyway.


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> His point that Covid passport for international travel can be invalid if intervals between shots are longer than pharma or CDC guidance ...but I doubt it


CDC guidance is to get the second shot even if you're late getting it.


----------



## andrewf

Money172375 said:


> Ontario administered a million shots last week. I’m not a huge Ford fan, but he was right….this has been a supply issue up until Now. The capacity to administer here seems very strong. That being said, I tried to register my teens and the clinic here is full until June 10 with no ability to book beyond that.
> will wait for the planned school rollout in June and august.


Try calling in to the phone line. They are opening up additional capacity as well as they confirm vaccine availability.


----------



## gibor365

btw, any news regarding Covid passports? A lot of noise and nothing specific....


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> Here in Saskatoon, if you are okay with one hour driving, there are plenty of slots for May 25-26. But only for the first dose.
> Vaccine is like new iPhone, eventually market gets saturated and people lose interest. I wonder how many first dosers will be persistent enough to get the second dose in two months or so.


Maybe if the government follows up/nags people not to miss their second appointment. Kind of like completing the census.


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> CDC guidance is to get the second shot even if you're late getting it.


_You should *get your second shot as close to the recommended 3-week or 4-week interval as possible*. However, your second dose may be given up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose, if necessary. _


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> I wonder, if the person got their second shot several months after the first. Will they be considered fully vaccinated and eligible for covid passport?


There is evidence to suggest that a longer vaccination interval (as much as 3 months) creates an even stronger immune response, so no reason to worry about this.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Open more vaccination centers. It is obvious there is vaccine but no vaccinators.........when there are long lineups at pharmacies.


No it isn't, we still don't have enough.
Ontario has only about 800k doses, we're vaccinating 150k/day. 
We don't even have enough to get through the week.






__





Canada’s COVID-19 vaccine supply and donation strategy - Canada.ca


Information on how Canada has procured its vaccines, managed the vaccine supply in country, and how vaccines are donated globally.




www.canada.ca








__





COVID‑19 vaccines


Learn about Ontario’s vaccination program to help protect us against COVID‑19.




covid-19.ontario.ca


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> _You should *get your second shot as close to the recommended 3-week or 4-week interval as possible*. However, your second dose may be given up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose, if necessary. _


_However, if you do receive your second shot of COVID-19 vaccine earlier or later than recommended, you do not have to restart the vaccine series. This guidance might be updated as more information becomes available.
COVID-19 Vaccination_


----------



## Ukrainiandude

cainvest said:


> _However, if you do receive your second shot of COVID-19 vaccine earlier or later than recommended, you do not have to restart the vaccine series. This guidance might be updated as more information becomes available.
> COVID-19 Vaccination_


If get my second shot next year, is that gonna be legit or do I need to restart the series?


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> _However, if you do receive your second shot of COVID-19 vaccine earlier or later than recommended, you do not have to restart the vaccine series. This guidance might be updated as more information becomes available.
> COVID-19 Vaccination_


My understanding that by "later" CDC means after recommended 3-4 weeks , but before 6 weeks


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> If get my second shot next year, is that gonna be legit or do I need to restart the series?


Good question! I don't think anybody can answer it


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> If get my second shot next year, is that gonna be legit or do I need to restart the series?





gibor365 said:


> My understanding that by "later" CDC means after recommended 3-4 weeks , but before 6 weeks


Don't know, guess you'll have to watch ...
"_This guidance might be updated as more information becomes available._ "

For those planning on going to the US in the future I'm sure it'll come up in the news as most second shots here will be considered "late".


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> No it isn't, we still don't have enough.
> Ontario has only about 800k doses, we're vaccinating 150k/day.
> We don't even have enough to get through the week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada’s COVID-19 vaccine supply and donation strategy - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> Information on how Canada has procured its vaccines, managed the vaccine supply in country, and how vaccines are donated globally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canada.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID‑19 vaccines
> 
> 
> Learn about Ontario’s vaccination program to help protect us against COVID‑19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid-19.ontario.ca


Sags does not understand logistics.


----------



## sags

The "logistics" don't add up.

Ontario is receiving 1.2 vaccines a week and administering 800,000. That leaves 400,000 unaccounted for.

A couple of days ago, Toronto clinics reported thousands of open appointments.

Start giving people the 2nd shot.


----------



## sags

As of today, 12 year olds can make an appointment for the Pfizer vaccine.

There was a pop up clinic at Toronto City Hall issuing 4,000 doses to anyone who showed up.

Where is that shortage of vaccines again ?


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> The "logistics" don't add up.
> 
> Ontario is receiving 1.2 vaccines a week and administering 800,000. That leaves 400,000 unaccounted for.
> 
> A couple of days ago, Toronto clinics reported thousands of open appointments.
> 
> Start giving people the 2nd shot.


Ontario provincial booking system books 1st and 2nd doses at the same time. They don't book doses unless they have vaccine. When a person books their 1st dose, they also get the date guaranteed for their 2nd dose. 

I want my 2nd dose as much as anyone, but surely you can see the math here.

If Mr. Trudeau would supply the vaccine, then it would be put into arms.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Sags does not understand logistics.


Clearly, Ontario has shown an incredible ability to ramp up vaccine distribution


sags said:


> As of today, 12 year olds can make an appointment for the Pfizer vaccine.
> 
> There was a pop up clinic at Toronto City Hall issuing 4,000 doses to anyone who showed up.
> 
> Where is that shortage of vaccines again ?


Ontario has a population of approximately 12.5M over 12.




__





Population estimates on July 1st, by age and sex


Estimated number of persons on July 1st, by 5-year age groups and sex, and median age, for Canada, provinces and territories.




www150.statcan.gc.ca





Trudeau sent us 8.8 M doses, if he sent another 16M we'd have enough.

As far as the 4k popup, yeah, that's one of the many methods. There are a lot of people pushing to get vaccines into everyone as fast as they can, but we're still 16M doses behind.

Also we've been getting vaccine shipments for 6 months, we have shown we can hit 1M/wk, we would be done, except we don't have the vaccine.

To be fair it isn't really Trudeaus fault that he hasn't gotten the vaccine, but the people of Ontario have done a great job at getting the vaccine into arms. You've got to be a real partisan hack to suggest Ford is doing a bad job with the vaccine rollout.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> Clearly, Ontario has shown an incredible ability to ramp up vaccine distribution


When they supply vaccine, they put it into arms. It's just that simple. They also store the guaranteed 2nd doses, so that they aren't making false promises. Ford has literally begged for more vaccine. What does Trudeau do - he offers to send in the military?



MrMatt said:


> You've got to be a real partisan hack to suggest Ford is doing a bad job with the vaccine rollout.


No kidding. Sheesh.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> When they supply vaccine, they put it into arms. It's just that simple. They also store the guaranteed 2nd doses, so that they aren't making false promises. Ford has literally begged for more vaccine. What does Trudeau do - he offers to send in the military?


Really we don't even have a week of vaccine in inventory, basically there are no guaranteed 2nd doses, except for the highest priority. If we get a disruption we might have to tell people booked for later this week that their appointment is cancelled, let alone those who booked more than a week out, your vaccine isn't even in the country.

But I think this is the right approach now.

Plus the military isn't the best tool it's just we don't have a national civil aid group, because nobody wants to pay for a federal emergency aid group, it is VERY expensive to keep all those people around and trained up.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Clearly, Ontario has shown an incredible ability to ramp up vaccine distribution
> 
> 
> Ontario has a population of approximately 12.5M over 12.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Population estimates on July 1st, by age and sex
> 
> 
> Estimated number of persons on July 1st, by 5-year age groups and sex, and median age, for Canada, provinces and territories.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www150.statcan.gc.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trudeau sent us 8.8 M doses, if he sent another 16M we'd have enough.
> 
> As far as the 4k popup, yeah, that's one of the many methods. There are a lot of people pushing to get vaccines into everyone as fast as they can, but we're still 16M doses behind.
> 
> Also we've been getting vaccine shipments for 6 months, we have shown we can hit 1M/wk, we would be done, except we don't have the vaccine.
> 
> To be fair it isn't really Trudeaus fault that he hasn't gotten the vaccine, but the people of Ontario have done a great job at getting the vaccine into arms. You've got to be a real partisan hack to suggest Ford is doing a bad job with the vaccine rollout.


To be fair, Dougie has little to do with Ontario's vaccine delivery. That is the civil service. It was pretty clear this wasn't going to be a problem barring gross incompetence. The only thing Doug could influence was how we were targeting vaccine (to which priority groups).


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> To be fair, Dougie has little to do with Ontario's vaccine delivery. That is the civil service. It was pretty clear this wasn't going to be a problem barring gross incompetence. The only thing Doug could influence was how we were targeting vaccine (to which priority groups).


I literally said "the people of Ontario have done a great job at getting the vaccine into arms.".
And if you ever listen Ford always gives credit to everyone else.

I think Doug has generally done a good job, without too much incompetence. Arguably he's been able to mobilize others quite effectively.

Trudeau, lots of incompetence, he never actually shut down the borders to prevent the variants, and was slow to implement the measures he did. That's the single biggest failing of his in this whole crisis.

Second would be shipping our PPE to China just before we needed it, but arguably stopping this while in China would have been great, it just didn't happen in time.


----------



## sags

You got Pfizer with all their experts saying follow the protocol and on the other side you have Drop - Out Doug deciding to extend the second shot schedule.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> You got Pfizer with all their experts saying follow the protocol and on the other side you have Drop - Out Doug deciding to extend the second shot schedule.


Doug isn't on the NACI.

I trust NACI & Health Canada more than some US pharmaceutical company. Why do you seem to trust the foreign drug company more?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> Why do you seem to trust the foreign drug company more?


Because they have manufactured the vaccine?


----------



## gibor365

Nice prediction !!!! Let's keep lockdown for eternity ?!

Canada may see COVID-19 resurgence despite full vaccinations, experts say (msn.com)


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> I think Doug has generally done a good job, without too much incompetence. Arguably he's been able to mobilize others quite effectively.


I don't know if he had a breakdown or something, but he kind of went AWOL for a month or two and left the rest of his cabinet to run things. 2021 hasn't been a good year for him so far.


----------



## zinfit

Ukrainiandude said:


> Here in Saskatoon, if you are okay with one hour driving, there are plenty of slots for May 25-26. But only for the first dose.
> Vaccine is like new iPhone, eventually market gets saturated and people lose interest. I wonder how many first dosers will be persistent enough to get the second dose in two months or so.


They need information. Pfizer and Moderna is about 33%effective against the Indian variant after one dose and it is 88% effective after two doses.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Because they have manufactured the vaccine?


There is a reason we have a government body approve the proper use of something after it's been created.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> I don't know if he had a breakdown or something, but he kind of went AWOL for a month or two and left the rest of his cabinet to run things. 2021 hasn't been a good year for him so far.


He's been letting his cabinet run things for much of the pandemic.

He's likely burnt out, he's still got a pandemic, and a population that is tired and doesn't want restrictions.

Plus he's a genuinely empathetic person, I think it's been tough on him, he likely does need a break, like anyone who's been working directly on this. 
Lots of health care workers are also exhausted and burnt out.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> He's been letting his cabinet run things for much of the pandemic.
> 
> He's likely burnt out, he's still got a pandemic, and a population that is tired and doesn't want restrictions.
> 
> Plus he's a genuinely empathetic person, I think it's been tough on him, he likely does need a break, like anyone who's been working directly on this.
> Lots of health care workers are also exhausted and burnt out.


He chose this job. If he can't handle it, he should resign.


----------



## Beaver101

^ In all fairness, do you think there is a better alternative ATM? Think of the Fed level too. [Keeping the blurb short to avoid diverting into a political debate.]


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> There is a reason we have a government body approve the proper use of something after it's been created.


You have a lot more confidence in Health Canada and the advisory group than I have. Their advice, decisions and guidance has been inconsistent, contradictory and just plain wrong in some instances. I have little or no confidence in Dr Tam and I would have replaced a long time ago. I rely on the advice of a regular contributor on CNBC namely DR Scott Gotlieb the former head of the FDA. I put more credibility in the work of the CDA over anything that Health Canada does.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> You have a lot more confidence in Health Canada and the advisory group than I have. Their advice, decisions and guidance has been inconsistent, contradictory and just plain wrong in some instances. I have little or no confidence in Dr Tam and I would have replaced a long time ago. I rely on the advice of a regular contributor on CNBC namely DR Scott Gotlieb the former head of the FDA. I put more credibility in the work of the CDA over anything that Health Canada does.


Actually I completely agree, I think that Dr Tam should be investigated and possibly put into jail for gross negligence.

That being said, in Health Canada approves medical interventions, and they approved the extended intervals. They decided there was enough data to do so, just like they approved the use of the vaccine in the first place.

I'm not saying anything is ideal, I think we can all agree it is not, but the criticisms that "it's not approved" are just based on ignorance.

Finally I think Health Canada and our various levels of government are generally competent. I've got lots of complaints, lots of concerns, and generally feel that government is at best a necessary evil. That doesn't mean they're wrong here. In addition I don't think Canadians realize or really accept that despite all the complaints, we have traditionally had one of the better governments in the world.

Plus like it or not, this is how things work here.


----------



## :) lonewolf

zinfit said:


> You have a lot more confidence in Health Canada and the advisory group than I have. Their advice, decisions and guidance has been inconsistent, contradictory and just plain wrong in some instances. I have little or no confidence in Dr Tam and I would have replaced a long time ago. I rely on the advice of a regular contributor on CNBC namely DR Scott Gotlieb the former head of the FDA. I put more credibility in the work of the CDA over anything that Health Canada does.


Send the "thing" back to the WHO, Gates has a monopoly on world health


----------



## Beaver101

I'm still waiting for our specialist expert, Dr. B. Aylward returning "to Canada " to report on his findings on Covid. Maybe he decided he ain't returning since it has been more than a year he has been leading on the global fight against Covid19.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newf...ce-aylward-coronavirus-who-covid-19-1.5492085


----------



## cainvest

Mix-and-match COVID vaccines trigger potent immune response


Preliminary results from a trial of more than 600 people are the first to show the benefits of combining different vaccines.




www.nature.com


----------



## Beaver101

People seeking vaccine second doses urged to be patient following reports of abuse and bullying

And it would not surprise me these dumbassed bullies include those who were hesistant to get the jab in the first place. The me, me, me, me, me first and screw everyone else.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Beaver101 said:


> People seeking vaccine second doses urged to be patient following reports of abuse and bullying
> 
> And it would not surprise me these dumbassed bullies include those who were hesistant to get the jab in the first place. The me, me, me, me, me first and screw everyone else.


The bullies are those enforcing lock downs.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> They need information. Pfizer and Moderna is about 33%effective against the Indian variant after one dose and it is 88% effective after two doses.


This measure refers to preventing visible (symptomatic) covid sickness so you have to be careful about what "33% effective" means. It's expected that partial vaccination *will still reduce the severity of the illness, even if a person develops symptoms*. Any way you cut it, one dose of vaccine will save lives, versus no vaccine.

But yeah, this is an unfortunate piece of news which increases the urgency of getting two doses, especially into older people. And it seems that provinces are responding quite quickly and already moving on second doses.

Canada probably saved a significant number of lives by adopting the one shot priority strategy. A lot more people in their 30s, 40s and 50s would have died if we had waited to first give older people two shots.

Let's not forget that the people who are exposed to COVID risk in day to day life as those who are working ... and that means people age 20-60. It's good that we got them vaccinated.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Canada probably saved a significant number of lives by adopting the one shot priority strategy. A lot more people in their 30s, 40s and 50s would have died if we had waited to first give older people two shots.


Fake news! In Mississauga with population close to 1M, for 1.5 year of Covid there were only 34 deaths for people below 60 ! It's nothing! Much more people died from traffic accidents,

For comparison:
60-69 - 36 deaths
70-79 - 67 deaths
80-89 - 165 deaths
90+ - 131 deaths


There were only 2 deaths from Covid for below 40 people and I bet they were extremely sick...




__





COVID-19 in Peel - Region of Peel







www.peelregion.ca




Sure, people below 60 are more valuable for society than 90+ (do people really live to this age?) , but talking here about "saving life" is a nonsense...

P.S. All this hysteria about Covid deaths is complete overreaction ... I know couple of dozens people from ages 15- 70 ) who had Covid (include my daughter).... Everybody describes it from light flu to heavy flu. 

P.P.S Looking at ages of deaths - looks like Covid is "cleaning the planet from overpopulation:


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Fake news! In Mississauga with population close to 1M, for 1.5 year of Covid there were only 34 deaths for people below 60 ! It's nothing! Much more people died from traffic accidents,
> 
> For comparison:
> 60-69 - 36 deaths
> 70-79 - 67 deaths
> 80-89 - 165 deaths
> 90+ - 131 deaths
> 
> 
> There were only 2 deaths from Covid for below 40 people and I bet they were extremely sick...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 in Peel - Region of Peel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.peelregion.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, people below 60 are more valuable for society than 90+ (do people really live to this age?) , but talking here about "saving life" is a nonsense...
> 
> P.S. All this hysteria about Covid deaths is complete overreaction ... I know couple of dozens people from ages 15- 70 ) who had Covid (include my daughter).... Everybody describes it from light flu to heavy flu.
> 
> P.P.S Looking at ages of deaths - looks like Covid is "cleaning the planet from overpopulation:


How many one shot vaccinated people have died?


----------



## cainvest

gibor365 said:


> All this hysteria about Covid deaths is complete overreaction ... I know couple of dozens people from ages 15- 70 ) who had Covid (include my daughter).... Everybody describes it from light flu to heavy flu.


Maybe Health Canada should base it's whole covid response based on Gibor's "dozens of people" he knows.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> This measure refers to preventing visible (symptomatic) covid sickness so you have to be careful about what "33% effective" means.


Those numbers have been going around for while now and they're not a valid comparison of one vs two shot protection.


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> P.S. All this hysteria about Covid deaths is complete overreaction


Canadian deaths from COVID by age

20s: 58 dead
30s: 121 dead
40s: 278 dead
50s: 868 dead
60s: 2,264 dead
70s: 5,070 dead

I used StatsCan data to look up other causes of deaths for age 20-49 so we can compare to COVID... for *young* people.

COVID deaths age 20-49 were, from above totals: 457 dead
Flu deaths in a typical year for same ages were: 159
Homicides in a typical year for same ages were: 241

So here's how dangerous COVID is for young people age 20-49. *It's killed more people than the flu and murders combined.*

It's killed nearly 3x as many people as a regular flu, for age 20-49.


----------



## Beaver101

:) lonewolf said:


> The bullies are those enforcing lock downs.


 ... yes, the enforcers are bullies to these [email protected]#!x^&*rs - feel better now?


----------



## sags

If we open up and the vaccines aren't effective, it is going to be an ugly situation. We are gambling everything on the vaccines.

Problem is we don't know if they protect against all the variants or how long the immunity will last. 

I guess we are going to find out.


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> This measure refers to preventing visible (symptomatic) covid sickness so you have to be careful about what "33% effective" means. It's expected that partial vaccination *will still reduce the severity of the illness, even if a person develops symptoms*. Any way you cut it, one dose of vaccine will save lives, versus no vaccine.
> 
> But yeah, this is an unfortunate piece of news which increases the urgency of getting two doses, especially into older people. And it seems that provinces are responding quite quickly and already moving on second doses.
> 
> Canada probably saved a significant number of lives by adopting the one shot priority strategy. A lot more people in their 30s, 40s and 50s would have died if we had waited to first give older people two shots.
> 
> Let's not forget that the people who are exposed to COVID risk in day to day life as those who are working ... and that means people age 20-60. It's good that we got them vaccinated.


My point is simple we better not become comfortable with one dose. The second dose is very important. I understand the reason for the one dose strategy. Now that we are getting much larger supplies of vaccines we should be working on a strategy of full vaccination ASAP.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Pfizer coronavirus vaccine less effective, still protects against variant from India: French study*
A study by France’s Pasteur Institute found people who had received two doses of Pfizer saw a three-fold reduction in their antibodies against the B. 1.617 variant
The co-author of the research said the findings show that ‘this variant has acquired partial resistance to antibodies’
I guess by winter new variants will overcome the vaccine protection. Vaccines must be upgraded in fall.


----------



## andrewf

Hopefully we can keep ahead of this. People are going to lose their minds if we have to do more lockdowns.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

andrewf said:


> keep ahead of this


 That would mean during the fall to get everyone vaccinated with new upgraded boosters. Otherwise they will just have to let the virus roll, no one gonna to live in constant lockdowns.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Hopefully we can keep ahead of this. People are going to lose their minds if we have to do more lockdowns.


My observation is that people have already given up.
Plus it's summer season, and we all know that COVID doesn't spread at protests.


----------



## sags

No better way to create new mutations that open up and spread the virus around.


----------



## sags

Ukrainiandude said:


> That would mean during the fall to get everyone vaccinated with new upgraded boosters. Otherwise they will just have to let the virus roll, no one gonna to live in constant lockdowns.


Who is going to go to work if the virus is spreading uncontrolled ?


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> Who is going to go to work if the virus is spreading uncontrolled ?


The workforce will consist of people who are vaccinated.

Why would anyone get sick if they've been vaccinated?

ltr


----------



## sags

Because the virus mutates to defeat the vaccine. That is how viruses survive and it is so difficult to totally eradicate them.


----------



## james4beach

like_to_retire said:


> The workforce will consist of people who are vaccinated.
> 
> Why would anyone get sick if they've been vaccinated?


The young people who party will still spread it. In my apartment building, parties have started again, and there are groups of people crammed indoors, drinking and talking loudly all night.

These are extremely high risk environments, and my guess is that even if young people have been vaccinated, COVID will likely still spread in these environments. Vaccine protection is a probability. Assume it's 90% protection or something like that (with variants).

For an *average* vaccinated person, there isn't that much risk of getting sick because you have routine exposure. But certain groups (e.g. medical people and partying 20 year olds) have MUCH higher levels of exposure and risk. For example a place like a nightclub, where people spend all night shouting in each other's faces, are extremely high risk.

If a vaccine is protecting 90%, but you have millions of people in nightclub and house party situations, then you'll still see people getting sick. Public health knows this will happen, but hopes that with widespread vaccination, these outbreaks will have a limited reach.

But clusters of cases will still happen, guaranteed. Occasionally some outbreak will happen, and get into a workplace, resulting in a workplace that has to shut down. That's going to happen for at least the next year, even with vaccination.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> Who is going to go to work if the virus is spreading uncontrolled ?


We have other respiratory infections spreading uncontrollable and people still go to work. Same gonna be here.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Canadian deaths from COVID by age
> 
> 20s: 58 dead


Two more in their 20's died here yesterday.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Because the virus mutates to defeat the vaccine. That is how viruses survive and it is so difficult to totally eradicate them.


yeah, but it seems that COVID19 isn't mutating that fast, so we might be able to keep up.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

All of those people were obese (like this person, I can’t believe she was 13 years old 



 )
and/or with underlying health conditions. In percentage from total population of those in 20s, the number really gets lost.


cainvest said:


> Two more in their 20's died here yesterday.


----------



## like_to_retire

When I bring home a prescription bottle from the pharmacy I figure the company that created the medicine knows what they're doing. 

If it says take a pill at 21 days, then I won't extend that to 4 months.

If it says it expires on a certain date, I don't extend that date either. I trust the company that made the medicine.

_Health Canada extends expiry date for thousands of AstraZeneca-Oxford doses._

ltr


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> All of those people were obese (like this person, I can’t believe she was 13 years old
> and/or with underlying health conditions. In percentage from total population of those in 20s, the number really gets lost.


I didn't find any info on the health conditions for the last two deaths, where did you find it?


----------



## cainvest

like_to_retire said:


> If it says it expires on a certain date, I don't extend that date either. I trust the company that made the medicine.
> 
> _Health Canada extends expiry date for thousands of AstraZeneca-Oxford doses._


As long as they can actually test to see if it's still good, what's the difference? Of course you're free to wait for a new batch to come in or mix with a different vaccine for the second shot ... your call.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

cainvest said:


> I didn't find any info on the health conditions for the last two deaths, where did you find it?


Unless it says “healthy individuals, without underlying conditions”, it doesn’t, does it?

The Manitoba government has reported its first COVID-19 death of a fully vaccinated person.


----------



## like_to_retire

cainvest said:


> As long as they can actually test to see if it's still good, what's the difference? Of course you're free to wait for a new batch to come in or mix with a different vaccine for the second shot ... your call.


You're right, what kind of fool pays attention to expiry dates anyway. If you don't like the date - just extend it. It'll be fine.

ltr


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> Unless it says “healthy individuals, without underlying conditions”, it doesn’t, does it?


They didn't say so I'm not going to assume either way.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

like_to_retire said:


> When I bring home a prescription bottle from the pharmacy I figure the company that created the medicine knows what they're doing.
> 
> If it says take a pill at 21 days, then I won't extend that to 4 months.
> 
> If it says it expires on a certain date, I don't extend that date either. I trust the company that made the medicine.
> 
> _Health Canada extends expiry date for thousands of AstraZeneca-Oxford doses._
> 
> ltr


Would be a waste to toss it out. 
we perfectly understand that the expiration date is just an estimate. And vaccines don’t go stale the next day.


----------



## cainvest

like_to_retire said:


> You're right, what kind of fool pays attention to expiry dates anyway. If you don't like the date - just extend it. It'll be fine.


It has worked for me and milk my entire life ... so far so good!


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> Two more in their 20's died here yesterday.


This is the kind of situation where anyone who isn't connected to any deaths is going to think that it really isn't a big deal, or that it's overblown.

They will think that until it kills someone they know.

In my case I have one family member, a man younger than me in perfect health, who ended up in hospital with pneumonia and came within an inch of his life. That was when I understood that this is serious.

The Canadian government has protected the public so well that most of us don't know anyone who died from COVID. This is a huge success, but (ironically) it's also why many people don't understand the seriousness.

It's the success of Public Health, actually. I am very very thankful that we have institutions that work well in our country.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

It’s going to be a huge disappointment for the public that so vigorously following the vaccination campaign. When it becomes obvious that the new variants emerged and vaccine is not effective anymore, and they need to pile up in lines again.
May 29: Saskatchewan Passes 700,000 Vaccines Administered, 179 New Cases, 141 Recoveries, One New Death.
*COVID-19 in Sask: 6 new deaths, 118 new cases Thursday May 27
and here random February day for comparison 
Saskatchewan recorded 153 new cases of COVID-19 on Friday February 26, along with 136 recoveries and no new deaths.*
So far I am reading those reports and numbers besides vaccines administered haven’t changed. And I am starting to wonder when and if we will see the results if any.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> It’s going to be a huge disappointment for the public that so vigorously following the vaccination campaign. When it becomes obvious that the new variants emerged and vaccine is not effective anymore, and they need to pile up in lines again.
> May 29: Saskatchewan Passes 700,000 Vaccines Administered, 179 New Cases, 141 Recoveries, One New Death.
> *COVID-19 in Sask: 6 new deaths, 118 new cases Thursday May 27
> and here random February day for comparison
> Saskatchewan recorded 153 new cases of COVID-19 on Friday February 26, along with 136 recoveries and no new deaths.*
> So far I am reading those reports and numbers besides vaccines administered haven’t changed. And I am starting to wonder when and if we will see the results if any.


Look at a chart of daily infections in Canada. It has been plummeting for the last few weeks.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

andrewf said:


> Look at a chart of daily infections in Canada. It has been plummeting for the last few weeks.


Canada
February no vaccines, daily cases 3000
May over half vaccinated, daily cases 3000


----------



## OptsyEagle

Ukrainiandude said:


> It’s going to be a huge disappointment for the public that so vigorously following the vaccination campaign. When it becomes obvious that the new variants emerged and vaccine is not effective anymore, and they need to pile up in lines again.


It is one thing to talk about possibilities so everyone can keep their eyes out for it in the rare case they happen, but one of the problems with this type of speculation is that when you say them often enough you start to believe that they are actually going to happen. You really need to get a hold of your imagination or you will drive yourself crazy with these speculations.


----------



## zinfit

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Pfizer coronavirus vaccine less effective, still protects against variant from India: French study*
> A study by France’s Pasteur Institute found people who had received two doses of Pfizer saw a three-fold reduction in their antibodies against the B. 1.617 variant
> The co-author of the research said the findings show that ‘this variant has acquired partial resistance to antibodies’
> I guess by winter new variants will overcome the vaccine protection. Vaccines must be upgraded in fall.


There are other studies showing highly effective protection with 2 doses.


----------



## sags

Ontario still has high numbers as well, despite all the vaccination.

A 24 year old died in our city and the local health agency advises people to keep their old appointments.

They say that people re-booking will end up with a later appointment. Ford is directing most of the vaccine to Toronto.

We also have the first cases of the new SA and India variants in our city.









SIMS: Doug Ford's two-dose pledge great for Toronto, not so much London


All that was missing from Premier Doug Ford’s news conference Friday was a balloon drop and “mission accomplished” banner.




lfpress.com


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> This is a huge success, but (ironically) it's also why many people don't understand the seriousness.


This is one of the major problems in our society in general.
Over thousands of years we've built this wonderful society, and most people understand how great an achievement that is.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> built this wonderful society


By destroying forests, polluting water and air. Hardly an achievement.


----------



## Money172375

sags said:


> Ontario still has high numbers as well, despite all the vaccination.
> 
> A 24 year old died in our city and the local health agency advises people to keep their old appointments.
> 
> They say that people re-booking will end up with a later appointment. Ford is directing most of the vaccine to Toronto.
> 
> We also have the first cases of the new SA and India variants in our city.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SIMS: Doug Ford's two-dose pledge great for Toronto, not so much London
> 
> 
> All that was missing from Premier Doug Ford’s news conference Friday was a balloon drop and “mission accomplished” banner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lfpress.com


Source that Ford is directing vaccine to toronto? Simply due to larger population or risk based? I believe the risk based deployment has ended and we’re back to population based deployment.


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> It’s going to be a huge disappointment for the public that so vigorously following the vaccination campaign. When it becomes obvious that the new variants emerged and vaccine is not effective anymore, and they need to pile up in lines again.


Vaccines are highly effective. Just look at the peaks alone ...

1st wave cases 1797
1st wave deaths 177

2nd wave cases 8312
2nd wave deaths 161

3rd wave cases 8729
3rd wave deaths 51

Also note that a large percentage of the recent new cases is in the 0-29 age group, the same ones that currently have the lowest percentage of vaccinations.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> My point is simple we better not become comfortable with one dose. The second dose is very important. I understand the reason for the one dose strategy. Now that we are getting much larger supplies of vaccines we should be working on a strategy of full vaccination ASAP.


I fully agree. And I think provinces are doing this. In a few days, my parents will be able to book their second doses and this is ahead of the original schedule.

The biggest problem I see at the moment is the danger of complacency, and everyone letting their guard down too early. This isn't over by a long shot, and as the public relaxes, they also increase their risky behaviours.

My own estimated timeline is looking like this, very rough estimate

In August, I predict I'll have the second shot, so I may travel domestically to visit my parents in Aug/Sep
Even with just one shot, I may visit my parents once *they* have both shots, if case counts in our provinces are low
In August, if case counts remain low, I'll return to socializing and meeting new people where I live
In Sept, if case counts are low and stable in both Canada & US, I will resume business travel to see my US partners
In winter, if case counts remain low (*big unknown here*) I plan to do foreign travel to Caribbean, Australia, etc
I plan to wear a KN95 mask when flying, even when fully vaccinated. The reason is that we don't know what might happen with mutations and you never get an early warning; they show up as surprises. Plus, I tend to catch colds every time I fly. Better safe than sorry, and I have comfortable KN95 masks; extremely good risk vs reward tradeoff.


----------



## sags

Ford keeps adding to the list of people eligible for vaccination without providing any additional vaccine or vaccinators.

That is what his government has done throughout the pandemic......make some grand declaration and then dump it onto the locals to figure out.

The local authority says......keep your original vaccination date because it won't get any better than that.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> Canada
> February no vaccines, daily cases 3000
> May over half vaccinated, daily cases 3000


_woosh_


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Toronto woman develops Bell's palsy after COVID vaccine*


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> Toronto woman develops Bell's palsy after COVID vaccine


It's one of the potential side effects, yes. You can find the report on this and other side effects, as counted by Ontario


https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/epi/covid-19-aefi-report.pdf?la=en



Appendix A shows that Bell's Palsy occurs at a rate of 0.6 per 100,000 doses for Pfizer and AZ. This is a very low rate.

Bell's Palsy is not permanent.


----------



## gibor365

like_to_retire said:


> When I bring home a prescription bottle from the pharmacy I figure the company that created the medicine knows what they're doing.
> 
> If it says take a pill at 21 days, then I won't extend that to 4 months.
> 
> If it says it expires on a certain date, I don't extend that date either. I trust the company that made the medicine.
> 
> _Health Canada extends expiry date for thousands of AstraZeneca-Oxford doses._
> 
> ltr


This is truly ridiculous! I understand that you can use expired Voltaren or Polysporin , but expired vaccine?! Give me a break!


----------



## gibor365

> Even with just one shot, I may visit my parents once *they* have both shots, if case counts in our provinces are low


Seriously?! We met with our moms and kids on constant basis even without any vaccines



> I plan to wear a KN95 mask when flying, even when fully vaccinated.


 I'm not planning to wear any mask first day it won't be mandatory...
P.S. Aren't you scared to drive or just cross the roads?! In you age group , more die from traffic accidents than from Covid


----------



## damian13ster

What is an excuse for having to extend the expiration date of the vaccine? There are plenty of people who got 1st dose of AZ that are waiting for a 2nd one for 4 months. Just get it to them ahead of the 4 months instead of letting the vaccines expire.

Damn idiots.


----------



## Spudd

I saw on the news this morning that the decision to extend the expiry date was taken in consultation with the manufacturer. That's good enough for me.


----------



## like_to_retire

Spudd said:


> I saw on the news this morning that the decision to extend the expiry date was taken in consultation with the manufacturer. That's good enough for me.


Yeah, Health Canada says the "mathematical modelling data" demonstrated the quality is OK. Is that the same tool they use to predict the weather?

So now I know when a medicine is about to expire, don't worry about, just change the expiry date.

The last thing that I want when I get a vaccine in my arm is to have it expired.

ltr


----------



## Money172375

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, Health Canada says the "mathematical modelling data" demonstrated the quality is OK. Is that the same tool they use to predict the weather?
> 
> So now I know when a medicine is about to expire, don't worry about, just change the expiry date.
> 
> The last thing that I want when I get a vaccine in my arm is to have it expired.
> 
> ltr


No, the last thing you want is expired vaccine authorized for emergency use.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> What is an excuse for having to extend the expiration date of the vaccine? There are plenty of people who got 1st dose of AZ that are waiting for a 2nd one for 4 months. Just get it to them ahead of the 4 months instead of letting the vaccines expire.
> 
> Damn idiots.


Maybe it is an admission that the "ramp up" in vaccinations is all political theater and actually isn't going to happen.

The government says one thing and our local authority says it isn't true. Pick who you believe I guess.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Maybe it is an admission that the "ramp up" in vaccinations is all political theater and actually isn't going to happen.
> 
> The government says one thing and our local authority says it isn't true. Pick who you believe I guess.


It has happened, and it's happening now.
Canada is doing 300k injections a day. in March we did 150k, in Jan 20-40k/day.

You didn't explain which authority or government, but I assume you're talking about different areas.
Let me tell you about Canada, it's a big country with many different areas. Each local area might have different stuff going on. So what's true for one area might not be true for another, or for the country as a whole.

The reality is right now Manitoba is in crisis, so that's what we're focusing on.
London however is doing very well, we have low cases and our hospitals are taking in transfer patients from other areas, and have been for months.


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> Seriously?! We met with our moms and kids on constant basis even without any vaccines


 ... Seriously?! Even when your daughter supposedly had the "Covid"-like-a-flu? 



> I'm not planning to wear any mask first day it won't be mandatory...


... then all the power to you.



> P.S. Aren't you scared to drive or just cross the roads?! In you age group , more die from traffic accidents than from Covid


... you really like to read from the mass rhetorics and yet apply it differently as an individual.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> It has happened, and it's happening now.
> Canada is doing 300k injections a day. in March we did 150k, in Jan 20-40k/day.
> 
> You didn't explain which authority or government, but I assume you're talking about different areas.
> Let me tell you about Canada, it's a big country with many different areas. Each local area might have different stuff going on. So what's true for one area might not be true for another, or for the country as a whole.
> 
> The reality is right now Manitoba is in crisis, so that's what we're focusing on.
> London however is doing very well, we have low cases and our hospitals are taking in transfer patients from other areas, and have been for months.


True, which is why Trudeau can't mandate everything and leaves it up to the Premiers.

People can judge for themselves how "their" Premier handled the pandemic. Thus far, some aren't doing that well.....politically speaking.


----------



## zinfit

There might be some misconceptions about the air quality in a passenger aircraft. The quality of air is probably much superior to the air quality in a large store such as Costco. Airplane travel may not pose the risk that many think especially if the passengers wear masks.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> True, which is why Trudeau can't mandate everything and leaves it up to the Premiers.
> 
> People can judge for themselves how "their" Premier handled the pandemic. Thus far, some aren't doing that well.....politically speaking.


I think they're actually doing quite well, people are just frustrated and fed up.

I think the Australian approach might have technically worked better, but I don't think it would be a cultural fit for Canadians.

I'm glad you realize Trudeau can't mandate everything.
Practically, morally or legally he simply doesn't have that capability.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> There might be some misconceptions about the air quality in a passenger aircraft. The quality of air is probably much superior to the air quality in a large store such as Costco. Airplane travel may not pose the risk that many think especially if the passengers wear masks.


 ... of course it's isn't the "air quality" of the aircraft. It's "contaminated air coming out from the mouth of the passengers" that's the source of transmission.

For one, I will not be sitting next to someone without a mask on even on a public bus, let alone on a plane while the pandemic is still on. Or perhaps even when it's declared over given the yearly flu will still be with us. And especially now knowing clearly what is the major route of transmission. So everyone, please keep the cooties to yourself.


----------



## sags

Yup.....being trapped in a pressurize steel capsule with a bunch of strangers isn't the best idea when a viral pandemic is raging.


----------



## sags

I wonder if prior to boarding the airline said....._you will be sitting in the plane with people who may have COVID......._would people still board the plane _?_


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Seriously?! We met with our moms and kids on constant basis even without any vaccines
> 
> I'm not planning to wear any mask first day it won't be mandatory...
> P.S. Aren't you scared to drive or just cross the roads?! In you age group , more die from traffic accidents than from Covid


What about not getting a flu or cold when you're travelling? I think the pandemic has shown the merit of staying away from germy public when it comes to not getting sick.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> I wonder if prior to boarding the airline said....._you will be sitting in the plane with people who may have COVID......._would people still board the plane _?_


 ... I would say "yes" (especially such) people would still board the plane (without hesitation) because the airline ain't gonna to make that declaration just as they ain't gonna to make a declaration that would adversely impact their bottomline. They'll make the declaration that your safety comes first ... at your own risk of course. Ie. if you don't wear a mask and someone has Covid or the measles or whatever contagious, and you come down with it ... tough or too bad for ya. Happy travelling!


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Maybe it is an admission that the "ramp up" in vaccinations is all political theater and actually isn't going to happen.
> 
> The government says one thing and our local authority says it isn't true. Pick who you believe I guess.


There is enough shots being done a day to get through entire AZ supply left before expiry date. 
45,000 shots are expiring and last day 250,000 were administered.
They could use entire supply in 3h and there is enough people who had 1st dose of AZ administered and waiting for 2nd dose to do it. It isn't a problem with 'ramp up'.
They just decided not to do it. I stand by my point - idiots.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> What about not getting a flu or cold when you're travelling? I think the pandemic has shown the merit of staying away from germy public when it comes to not getting sick.


We used to travel by plane 4-5 times every year during many many years....We've never got "a flu or cold " , so I'll take my chances instead of 10 hours to suffer sitting with masks  Hence apparently, so need to eat and drink, so you gonna remove your mask anyway... maybe there are more chances to get flu or cold while visiting famous museums ... so are you planning to wear mask for good everywhere?! It's your choice....


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> There might be some misconceptions about the air quality in a passenger aircraft. The quality of air is probably much superior to the air quality in a large store such as Costco. Airplane travel may not pose the risk that many think especially if the passengers wear masks.


Airplane air recirculates through HEPA filters. The problem is the air that comes from the mouth of the guy next to you, which you breathe in. That air hasn't gone through a HEPA filter.

There have been studies which looked at infectious disease outbreaks (like influenza) on planes, and it showed that people who sit near the infected person do catch it. Without masks, if you're sitting next to the infected person or a small radius around them, you're screwed. But the virus doesn't spread to the entire plane. The HEPA filters catch this stuff.

Costco and stores have a lot more interior space. You can separate more, so you're less likely to catch any virus.

The unfortunate problem with planes is how tightly packed everyone is. The airline industry is lobbying to prevent governments from doing the only thing which will really help, which is to reduce the # of people in the cabins and spread them out more.

Middle seats should be eliminated for the duration of the pandemic.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> There have been studies which looked at infectious disease outbreaks (like influenza) on planes, and it showed that people who sit near the infected person do catch it. Without masks, if you're sitting next to the infected person or a small radius around them, you're screwed. But the virus doesn't spread to the entire plane. The HEPA filters catch this stuff.
> 
> .


just curious...did you ever fly w/o mask?


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> just curious...did you ever fly w/o mask?


Of course. But not during a pandemic, with a widely circulating disease which is far more dangerous than colds or flus.

But let me guess... you don't think COVID is very dangerous.


----------



## sags

James......one only has to look back in the threads and comments in the media to see the people who started with "the seasonal flu is more dangerous than COVID", then changed to anti-maskers, then to anti-vaxxers, and now are anti-restrictions of any kind. They were wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong........so I don't know why anyone would listen to them now.


----------



## damian13ster

You are going down slippery slope.
I am anti-restrictions. Do have data to back this opinion.
I am pro-vaccines. Will get one as soon as they are used according to manufacturer's specifications (my guess is in around a month).
Those two are not connected. There are people who simply follow the science and look at data. Being such person, I do believe that COVID is more dangerous than flu, I do believe masks work although for a very short time in enclosed space (due to COVID spreading by air, not just droplets like flu). I do believe that vaccines work (multiples of data). I do believe restrictions are useless and hurt millions without helping anyone (multiples of data).

You don't have to be a cheerleader and be 100% blindly following one side of the debate or the other. 
One can employ critical thinking and decide on each separate issue based on data regarding that very issue.


----------



## sags

I listen to the doctors and nurses working on the front lines. 

I am not interested in studies done by nobodies who belong to some sketchy organization. 

I am not interested in proclamations from governments seeking re-election.

I am pragmatic and detail oriented, but mostly from a life time of experience, I have no difficulty separating the fly poop from the pepper.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> I listen to the doctors and nurses working on the front lines.
> 
> I am not interested in studies done by nobodies who belong to some sketchy organization.
> 
> I am not interested in proclamations from governments seeking re-election.
> 
> I am pragmatic and detail oriented, but mostly from a life time of experience, I have no difficulty separating the fly poop from the pepper.


Yet you are calling University of Lausanne, University of Prague, and University Core d'Azur professors 'nobodies from sketchy organization'......   

Doctors and nurses get limited data from one extremely specific place.
A friend of mine is a doctor. He was in a middle of the worst hit region in Europe. Saw 2 people with COVID overall - you know why? His hospital was chosen to treat non-COVID patients. He is on a front lines yet has no idea of situation in his city, let along a country, continent, or the world.
Another one works in COVID hospital. They have 120 beds for COVID patients. Most of them filled. What does she know? Well, she can say that hospitalizations are 120. That's the extent of verifiable information.

Looking at such localized and small data points makes you exactly opposite of pragmatic and detail-oriented.
Your viewpoint is more comparable to a magpie that found a shiny object they like and ignores everything beyond it.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I listen to the doctors and nurses working on the front lines.


So you have a very narrow window of understanding on what's going on.

What about mental health of kids being out of school?


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> So you have a very narrow window of understanding on what's going on.
> 
> What about mental health of kids being out of school?


Maybe he knows a nurse from mental health institution.
Would get him much deeper and more accurate knowledge than looking at nationwide data and listening to 'nobodies' from 'sketchy institutions' such as world renowned universities.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease
Development of new vaccine technology has been plagued with problems in the past. The current RNA based SARS- CoV-2 vaccines were approved in the US using an emergency order without extensive long term safety testing. In this paper the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine was evaluated for the potential to induce prion-based disease in vaccine recipients. The RNA sequence of the vaccine as well as the spike protein target interaction were analyzed for the potential to convert intracellular RNA binding proteins TAR DNA binding protein (TDP-43) and Fused in Sarcoma (FUS) into their pathologic prion conformations. The results indicate that the vaccine RNA has specific sequences that may induce TDP-43 and FUS to fold into their pathologic prion confirmations. In the current analysis a total of sixteen UG tandem repeats (ΨGΨG) were identified and additional UG (ΨG) rich sequences were identified. Two GGΨA sequences were found. Potential G Quadruplex sequences are possibly present but a more sophisticated computer program is needed to verify these. Furthermore, the spike protein, created by the translation of the vaccine RNA, binds angiotensin converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), a zinc containing enzyme. This interaction has the potential to increase intracellular zinc. Zinc ions have been shown to cause the transformation of TDP-43 to its pathologic prion configuration. The folding of TDP-43 and FUS into their pathologic prion confirmations is known to cause ALS, front temporal lobar degeneration, Alzheimer’s disease and other neurological degenerative diseases. The enclosed finding as well as additional potential risks leads the author to believe that regulatory approval of the RNA based vaccines for SARS-CoV-2 was premature and that the vaccine may cause much more harm than benefit.


https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf


And *Fact Check-No evidence that Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine causes Alzheimer’s disease








Fact Check-No evidence that Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine causes Alzheimer’s disease


As of this article’s publication, the COVID-19 vaccine manufactured by Pfizer-BioNTech has not been shown to cause Prion diseases or neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer’s and Lou Gehrig’s disease (ALS). Experts say a paper circulating online does not provide legitimate...




www.reuters.com




*
based on this I should have got Astra Zeneca.


----------



## zinfit

There is some good research showing both Moderna/Pfizer being effective against the Indian variant


----------



## gibor365

zinfit said:


> There is some good research showing both Moderna/Pfizer being effective against the Indian variant


In any case, i'm waiting for Trudeau variant LOL


----------



## sags

The Trudeau variant is a good one. It puts money in your pocket and makes you happy.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> The Trudeau variant is a good one. It puts money in your pocket and makes you happy.


Maybe in yours , but not ours.... We just get out money stolen by Liberals


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> There is some good research showing both Moderna/Pfizer being effective against the Indian variant


That's great news.

So far it looks like vaccines help reduce the seriousness of any covid infection, whether original or variants. It's still possible to catch COVID after vaccination; the question is *how serious* it becomes.

Anything that reduces my chances of ending up in the hospital (or dead) is a win. I don't mind catching a cold or getting the sniffles. I don't even mind being out of commission for a bit.


----------



## james4beach

Low vaccination rates are a big problem in Manitoba.



> Staff at Boundary Trails Health Centre are routinely hearing from sick and unvaccinated patients who believe the pandemic is a hoax — some remaining defiant even on the brink of death.
> 
> "We hear this almost every day, and I know that's startling," said Dr. Ganesan Abbu. "It's difficult ... to know that almost 100 per cent of our admissions have not been vaccinated."


Winkler is 24% vaccinated, still well below the MB average of 53%. The rural area surrounding Winkler and Morden has only 12% vaccination!

Even as some people die of the virus, they think it's all a hoax. The mayor of Winkler was on the radio today, pleading with people to stop spending so much time reading garbage on the internet.


----------



## Beaver101

I guess this guy wasn't convinced enough in this life that Covid is real as with the pandemic. Oh well. Only 33 years old and a deputy sheriff, pity.

Anti-vaxxer sheriff's deputy dies from COVID-19 complications shortly after mocking the vaccine on Facebook


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> I guess this guy wasn't convinced enough in this life that Covid is real as with the pandemic. Oh well. Only 33 years old and a deputy sheriff, pity.
> 
> Anti-vaxxer sheriff's deputy dies from COVID-19 complications shortly after mocking the vaccine on Facebook


It's a well known issue that once people make a decision, being proven wrong only increases their commitment.

There are lots of stories of Manitoba Anti vaxxers dying from COVID saying it's a hoax. It's one of the particular problems in MB.


----------



## Money172375

Mixing and matching all 3 double-dose vaccines is now permitted/recommended.









NACI recommends mixing AstraZeneca, Pfizer, Moderna COVID-19 vaccines - National | Globalnews.ca


The mRNA vaccines can be interchangeable, if not readily available, and may be offered as a subsequent dose after a first AstraZeneca shot, NACI said in updated guidelines.




globalnews.ca


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> Winkler is 24% vaccinated, still well below the MB average of 53%. The rural area surrounding Winkler and Morden has only 12% vaccination!


 And yet we don’t see corpses on the streets.
In Ukraine during the communists rule in 1930s there were corpses everywhere, and every morning there was a horse drawn carriage the loaded those up.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> I guess this guy wasn't convinced enough in this life that Covid is real as with the pandemic. Oh well. Only 33 years old and a deputy sheriff, pity.
> 
> Anti-vaxxer sheriff's deputy dies from COVID-19 complications shortly after mocking the vaccine on Facebook


Did he die from obesity or covid or both?


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Fact Check-No evidence that Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine causes Alzheimer’s disease
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact Check-No evidence that Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine causes Alzheimer’s disease
> 
> 
> As of this article’s publication, the COVID-19 vaccine manufactured by Pfizer-BioNTech has not been shown to cause Prion diseases or neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer’s and Lou Gehrig’s disease (ALS). Experts say a paper circulating online does not provide legitimate...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> based on this I should have got Astra Zeneca.


Based on the fact check you posted, it sounds like the original scientific paper you quoted is just garbage science. I wouldn't be concerned.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Did he die from obesity or covid or both?


 .. Covid led this dumb fat young deputy sheriff to his death earlier than his obesity.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Money172375 said:


> Mixing and matching all 3 double-dose vaccines is now permitted/recommended.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NACI recommends mixing AstraZeneca, Pfizer, Moderna COVID-19 vaccines - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The mRNA vaccines can be interchangeable, if not readily available, and may be offered as a subsequent dose after a first AstraZeneca shot, NACI said in updated guidelines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


 But it is not recommending AstraZeneca after a first shot of Pfizer or Moderna.

Reading on mRNA vaccines and Alzheimer’s in future, even if chances are slim and vague, I prefer not to risk it.
I wonder if I could get Astra Zeneca as a second dose instead.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> the fact check


 Did not see any super convincing debunking. That would take years of research. All hypothetical same as the original paper.


Spudd said:


> original scientific paper you quoted is just garbage science


It was peer reviewed and published in scientific paper.


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> And yet we don’t see corpses on the streets.


Wow, what kind of criteria is this.

Public Health is currently succeeding in Canada. Their mission is to protect public health to a point *far more conservative* than the point where people are dropping dead in the streets.

The big picture story is in the per capita death rates. We're doing well, but we also need the public to do their part with limiting the spread of disease.


----------



## damian13ster

Yes. In financial topics. About impact of CMHC on housing market. About impact of fed plumbing on inflation, and about inverse relationship of interest rates to P/E multiples (all those topics interconnected).

Last time I checked though this thread is related to COVID and not financial topics?

Well, not quite your business but I truly don't mind:

I recommend outdoor activities to stay in shape and boost immune system
Healthy diet, vitamin D supplement if work indoors
I recommend vaccination as prescribed by manufacturers and scientists (will book appointment for first dose on June 8 considering 2nd doses will be available June 28)
Keep distance wherever possible
Mask usage in indoor areas where distance is impossible
Wash/sanitize hands before touching any of your orifices


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> Did he die from obesity or covid or both?


It would be unusual for a 33 year old to die of obesity (or more accurately its related diseases such as diabetes, heart disease, etc.).


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> Did not see any super convincing debunking. That would take years of research. All hypothetical same as the original paper.
> 
> It was peer reviewed and published in scientific paper.


The original paper is just an opinion piece. The fact that it got published in a "scientific" paper means nothing.

First of all, the main premise is that those two proteins will have their structure modified to lead to ALS is debunked in the article:
_Dr Irina Skylar-Scott, a neurologist at Stanford Hospitals and Clinics who specializes in Alzheimer’s and other disorders of cognition and behavior (profiles.stanford.edu/242780), told Reuters by phone that Classen’s claims were “overreaching to say the least,” noting that neither TDP-43 nor FUS, the two proteins he discusses, are associated with Alzheimer’s disease._

That alone should be enough to disprove it.

Second of all, all the original paper does is provide an opinion. An actual paper would try to provide it. It's actually pretty easy to prove, if he has the expertise. If you want to prove that the the vaccine will cause the proteins to conform into a prion, disease causing state, you just do an x-ray crystallography to show the structure. All he has done is stated that the mRNA has a sequence that might cause the proteins to take another shape.

Third, assuming that Pfizer and Moderna did their job, the mRNA sequence would pretty much be the same as the spike protein produced from the COVID virus. In other words, if it was truly the case the mRNA would lead to Alzheimers, EVERY person infected with COVID would exhibit the Alzheimer symptoms.

As for being a peer reviewed journal, it actually looks more like those "pay and we publish" type journals. No peer reviewed scientific journal would allow something like this to be published:
_The fact that this research, which could be used for bioweapons development, is funded by private organizations including the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and Ellison Medical Foundation [2] without national/international oversight is also a concern. In the past, for example, there were prohibitions for publishing information pertaining to construction of nuclear bombs._

Here's an explanation of the difference of a legitimate and predatory journal: LibGuides: Illegitimate & Predatory Publishing: Legitimate vs Illegitimate Publishers

Some illegitimate publishers co-opt the Open Access model by charging these Article Processing Charges, but fail to adhere to the rigorous standards of scholarly publishing. Many do not do peer review, or do so only on a superficial level. Many illegitimate journals are run by an editorial board of people from mixed disciplines who do not possess the expertise required to create a quality journal. These journals are akin to vanity presses where authors pay to have their work published, but the work itself is not professionally reviewed or vetted in any way. 

Here's a directory of reputable open source journals, guess what journal does not appear. Directory of Open Access Journals


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> It would be unusual for a 33 year old to die of obesity (or more accurately its related diseases such as diabetes, heart disease, etc.).


Anyone who is ignoring the hundreds of deaths of young Canadians due to covid is really choosing to stick their head in the sand.

There are over 1,000 people under age 60 who have died from this.

Also distressing is the huge number of ICU admissions. There have been over 1,000 ICU admissions for people *under age 40*.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> There have been over 1,000 ICU admissions for people *under age 40*.


'They probably deserved it.'


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> Anyone who is ignoring the hundreds of deaths of young Canadians due to covid is really choosing to stick their head in the sand.
> 
> There are over 1,000 people under age 60 who have died from this.
> 
> Also distressing is the huge number of ICU admissions. There have been over 1,000 ICU admissions for people *under age 40*.


That is not a whole lot to be honest. Actually, ICU admissions in 2020 were lower than in any of the 4 years before that. Putting numbers into context is important


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> noting that neither TDP-43 nor FUS, the two proteins he discusses, are associated with Alzheimer’s disease.


*TDP-43: From Alzheimer’s Disease to Limbic-Predominant Age-Related TDP-43 Encephalopathy








TDP-43: From Alzheimer’s Disease to Limbic-Predominant Age-Related TDP-43 Encephalopathy


Since the discovery of TAR DNA-binding protein 43 (TDP-43) in 1995, our understanding of its role continues to expand as research progresses. In particular, its role in the pathogenesis of Alzheimer’s disease (AD) has drawn increasing interest in recent years. TDP-43 may participate in various...




www.frontiersin.org




**Conclusions*
TDP-43 plays an important role in the CNS. Abnormal aggregation and localization of TDP-43 can cause mitochondrial dysfunction, aggravate neuroinflammation, and contribute to many diseases involving various regions of the brain. Abnormalities in TDP-43 in the upper and lower motor neurons can contribute to ALS, while abnormalities in TDP-43 in the frontal and temporal lobes can contribute to FTLD, and those in the limbic system to AD. TDP-43 contributes to various pathogenic processes underlying AD, such as Aβ deposition, tau hyperphosphorylation, mitochondrial dysfunction, and neuroinflammation. However, AD-like cognitive dysfunction associated with TDP-43 pathology appears to be distinct from that associated with AD. Therefore, AD-like cognitive dysfunction with TDP-43 as the main marker may be defined as a new encephalopathy, LATE, or may alternatively represent a subcategory of AD (Figure 1). Future studies should focus on redefining or emphasizing the important role of TDP-43 in cognitive dysfunction, whether as a subcategory of AD, or as LATE, with the purpose of defining new diagnostic criteria or treatment strategies. It is never too late to discover TDP-43 and LATE.
*TDP-43 interacts with amyloid-β, inhibits fibrillization, and worsens pathology in a model of Alzheimer’s disease








TDP-43 interacts with amyloid-Î², inhibits fibrillization, and worsens pathology in a model of Alzheimerâ€™s disease


TDP-43 inclusions are observed in Alzheimerâ€™s disease. Here the authors show that TDP-43 interacts with amyloid-Î² and inhibits fibrillization in vitro and exacerbates Alzheimerâ€™s disease pathology in animal models.




www.nature.com




*


----------



## james4beach

Russia had certainly under stated its COVID numbers. That's pretty typical in authoritarian regimes and dictatorship.

Similar story in India (under Modi), Brazil (under Bolsonaro), Turkey (under Erdogan) and obviously North Korea


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> Russia had certainly under stated its COVID numbers. That's pretty typical in authoritarian regimes and dictatorship.
> 
> Similar story in India (under Modi), Brazil (under Bolsonaro), Turkey (under Erdogan) and obviously North Korea


Didn't authoritarian regime in Canada do exactly the same:
From statscan:
As the pandemic continues, excess mortality in Canada has shifted to affect younger populations, but this shift cannot be explained by changes in the number of deaths attributed directly to COVID-19. During the spring of 2020 in Canada, the number of deaths reported among those younger than 45 was 12% higher than expected. During the fall, the number of deaths among this age group increased to 19% higher than expected.

As there was no increase in deaths caused by COVID-19 for this age group—less than 1% of COVID-19 deaths in Canada involved individuals younger than 45—these shifts imply an increase in deaths that may be indirectly associated with the pandemic or other factors.


So did Canada under Trudeau underestimate its COVID numbers, or is it actually possible that government mandated lockdowns lead to more deaths (mental health issues, lack of access to healthcare, poverty). In poorer countries simply those effects are more profound, hence excesses are even bigger.


----------



## gibor365

Israel reports link between Pfizer 2nd shot and heart problem in males under 30


Myocarditis side effect is extremely rare and in most cases mild; experts say finding unlikely to affect decision on vaccinating 12- to 15-year-olds




www.timesofisrael.com


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> *TDP-43: From Alzheimer’s Disease to Limbic-Predominant Age-Related TDP-43 Encephalopathy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TDP-43: From Alzheimer’s Disease to Limbic-Predominant Age-Related TDP-43 Encephalopathy
> 
> 
> Since the discovery of TAR DNA-binding protein 43 (TDP-43) in 1995, our understanding of its role continues to expand as research progresses. In particular, its role in the pathogenesis of Alzheimer’s disease (AD) has drawn increasing interest in recent years. TDP-43 may participate in various...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.frontiersin.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **Conclusions*
> TDP-43 plays an important role in the CNS. Abnormal aggregation and localization of TDP-43 can cause mitochondrial dysfunction, aggravate neuroinflammation, and contribute to many diseases involving various regions of the brain. Abnormalities in TDP-43 in the upper and lower motor neurons can contribute to ALS, while abnormalities in TDP-43 in the frontal and temporal lobes can contribute to FTLD, and those in the limbic system to AD. TDP-43 contributes to various pathogenic processes underlying AD, such as Aβ deposition, tau hyperphosphorylation, mitochondrial dysfunction, and neuroinflammation. However, AD-like cognitive dysfunction associated with TDP-43 pathology appears to be distinct from that associated with AD. Therefore, AD-like cognitive dysfunction with TDP-43 as the main marker may be defined as a new encephalopathy, LATE, or may alternatively represent a subcategory of AD (Figure 1). Future studies should focus on redefining or emphasizing the important role of TDP-43 in cognitive dysfunction, whether as a subcategory of AD, or as LATE, with the purpose of defining new diagnostic criteria or treatment strategies. It is never too late to discover TDP-43 and LATE.
> *TDP-43 interacts with amyloid-β, inhibits fibrillization, and worsens pathology in a model of Alzheimer’s disease
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TDP-43 interacts with amyloid-Î², inhibits fibrillization, and worsens pathology in a model of Alzheimerâ€™s disease
> 
> 
> TDP-43 inclusions are observed in Alzheimerâ€™s disease. Here the authors show that TDP-43 interacts with amyloid-Î² and inhibits fibrillization in vitro and exacerbates Alzheimerâ€™s disease pathology in animal models.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


You realize those links don't support the original paper right? The original paper is about the vaccine changing the shape of TDP. The first link you have here talks about it being possibly being a factor if phosphorilized. The second just talks about it normally interacting with other cell components.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> Dr Irina Skylar-Scott, a neurologist at Stanford Hospitals and Clinics who specializes in Alzheimer’s and other disorders of cognition and behavior (profiles.stanford.edu/242780), told Reuters by phone that Classen’s claims were “overreaching to say the least,” noting that neither TDP-43 nor FUS, the two proteins he discusses, are associated with Alzheimer’s disease.





bgc_fan said:


> The first link you have here talks about it being possibly being a factor if phosphorilized.


 Sounds like an association to me.
Abnormalities in TDP-43 in the upper and lower motor neurons can contribute to ALS, while abnormalities in TDP-43 in the frontal and temporal lobes can contribute to FTLD, and those in the limbic system to AD. TDP-43 contributes to various pathogenic processes underlying AD, such as Aβ deposition, tau hyperphosphorylation, mitochondrial dysfunction, and neuroinflammation.
AD is Alzheimer’s here.


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> Sounds like an association to me.
> Abnormalities in TDP-43 in the upper and lower motor neurons can contribute to ALS, while abnormalities in TDP-43 in the frontal and temporal lobes can contribute to FTLD, and those in the limbic system to AD. TDP-43 contributes to various pathogenic processes underlying AD, such as Aβ deposition, tau hyperphosphorylation, mitochondrial dysfunction, and neuroinflammation.
> AD is Alzheimer’s here.


Not really based on those papers. What I see is a lot of correlation, not necessarily causation. Here's a more precise quote from your article:
_Despite the common occurrence of TDP-43 proteinopathy in AD, the pathological role of TDP-43 in AD is still largely unknown. _

Basically, there's a lot of it in people with ALS, but no idea if it actually causes it.

I noticed that out of 4 points I raised, you only can address one. You want to address the others?


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## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> I noticed that out of 4 points I raised, you only can address one. You want to address the others?


 Those are mostly based on your personal opinion. For one both vaccines and covid might contribute to the Alzheimer’s in the future, only time will tell which is worse the disease or cure. Obviously it might be difficult to connect the increase in AD incidents and covid/vaccine. Given the rate of covid infection in Canada and vaccinated rates, it’s more likely to get exposed by the vaccine proteins vs the disease itself.


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> Those are mostly based on your personal opinion. For one both vaccines and covid might contribute to the Alzheimer’s in the future, only time will tell which is worse the disease or cure. Obviously it might be difficult to connect the increase in AD incidents and covid/vaccine. Given the rate of covid infection in Canada and vaccinated rates, it’s more likely to get exposed by the vaccine proteins vs the disease itself.


That fact that it isn't an trusted journal isn't my opinion.

The fact that the argument hinges on the mRNA sequence which is the same as the COVID virus isn't my opinion.

The fact that the author doesn't actually prove anything isn't my opinion. All he does is throw out conjecture.

Edit: so I guess you're going to be an anti-vaxxer then?


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Unfortunately, the doctors and nurses have to treat these numb nuts when they get infected.
> 
> They don't have the option of "hiding away some place safe" and neither do many other people working to keep society moving.


When you say "doctors and nurses", do you mean the nurses who took the Ontario government to court to block mandatory flu shots or masks. 
They got this ruling in 2018. Think about it, you want to restrict peoples human rights to protect anti-vaxxer nurses.


----------



## sags

Nurses can refuse the vaccination, but also have to sign a waiver they will not work during an outbreak.

My wife worked extra shifts to cover nurses who refused the vaccinations and were not able to work during outbreaks.


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## Beaver101

sags said:


> Nurses can refuse the vaccination, but also have to sign a waiver they will not work during an outbreak.
> 
> My wife worked extra shifts to cover nurses who refused the vaccinations and were not able to work during outbreaks.


 ... hope your wife do not have to continuously cover those unnecessary shifts when this policy comes into effect (July 1, 2021 in Ontario):

Long-term care workers who forgo vaccination without medical reason will have to participate in educational program



> ...
> _In a statement attached to the press release, the Ontario Long-Term Care Association said that the “vast majority of long-term care staff have embraced vaccination to protect their residents.” *But they acknowledged that for those who are reluctant and who do not have a medical issue “a mandatory education program will be helpful to correct misinformation and alleviate their concerns."*_


I hope this policy gets extended to hospitals, dental offices, plus any and all medical/healthcare facilities. Otherwise your employer has the right to tell you take a change of career - in an "unrelated" field via a mandatory educational program.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Israel sees probable link between Pfizer vaccine and myocarditis cases








Israel sees probable link between Pfizer vaccine and myocarditis cases


Israel's Health Ministry said on Tuesday it had found the small number of heart inflammation cases observed mainly in young men who received Pfizer's (PFE.N) COVID-19 vaccine in Israel were likely linked to their vaccination.




www.reuters.com




*


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Israel sees probable link between Pfizer vaccine and myocarditis cases
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel sees probable link between Pfizer vaccine and myocarditis cases
> 
> 
> Israel's Health Ministry said on Tuesday it had found the small number of heart inflammation cases observed mainly in young men who received Pfizer's (PFE.N) COVID-19 vaccine in Israel were likely linked to their vaccination.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Comrade, I posted the same yesterday in post #2,507


----------



## moderator2

*The topic of this thread is vaccines*. Please keep the thread on the topic.

I have deleted 30 or 40 off topic posts. Things like communism, Hitler, socialism and political ideology is all off topic. Those of you interested in discussing hitler and communism should do it in the Politics thread. Any posts about this appearing elsewhere will be deleted or moved to Politics.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Nurses can refuse the vaccination, but also have to sign a waiver they will not work during an outbreak.
> 
> My wife worked extra shifts to cover nurses who refused the vaccinations and were not able to work during outbreaks.


Do those nurses wear signs indicating that they're idiots and should not be trusted to provide medical advice?


----------



## like_to_retire

Just when I thought I had the different variants figured out, they changed the names.


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> Just when I thought I had the different variants figured out, they changed the names.


That's because people discriminate based on the name.
Like Spanish flu wasn't actually from Spain.

Really it would be nice if they pushed these generic names a bit quicker. For those that pay enough attention, they'll know anyway. And if you're not paying attention, you don't need to know.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> Edit: so I guess you're going to be an anti-vaxxer then?


 I had all vaccines in the past, including first dose of experimental vaccine by Pfizer against coronavirus. But government can’t provide the second shot 3 weeks apart and as new hypothesis emerge I doubt I will be rushing to get it anytime soon even when it’s available in three months (12 weeks) vs manufacturers required three weeks. 
What about you have all your vaccines besides the corona?


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> I had all vaccines in the past, including first dose of experimental vaccine by Pfizer against coronavirus. But government can’t provide the second shot 3 weeks apart and as new hypothesis emerge I doubt I will be rushing to get it anytime soon even when it’s available in three months (12 weeks) vs manufacturers required three weeks.
> What about you have all your vaccines besides the corona?


Yes.


----------



## sags

No mix and match for me. I will take the 2nd Pfizer or go without a second dose.

I get the feeling that with the new virus mutations, it won't matter anyways. We are going to need different vaccines.

The India variant is taking over in Canada, so it is a different virus to deal with. The Vietnam hybrid is coming as well.

Viruses mutate to avoid vaccines so they can survive. Why would anyone think that a vaccine for an older virus would work on a new virus ?


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## Money172375

If these vaccines don’t work on these variants or any new variant, we are in world of trouble.


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## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> If these vaccines don’t work on these variants or any new variant, we are in world of trouble.


Most of the data shows that the vaccines are all at least somewhat effective against the variants.
Really just a small drop in spread is enough to keep it under control.


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## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> Most of the data shows


Do you believe that other data would be available to the general public?


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## Ukrainiandude

Money172375 said:


> If these vaccines don’t work on these variants or any new variant


 Exactly, this is the reason why second dose is not so much important, it needs to be an upgraded with new variants booster, given to everyone in fall, other wise we will have winter no different from the last one.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Exactly, this is the reason why second dose is not so much important, it needs to be an upgraded with new variants booster, given to everyone in fall, other wise we will have winter no different from the last one.


This is why I started to invest into PFE month or 2 ago


----------



## Money172375

Ukrainiandude said:


> Exactly, this is the reason why second dose is not so much important, it needs to be an upgraded with new variants booster, given to everyone in fall, other wise we will have winter no different from the last one.


If we all need a 3rd shot in the fall, then this is far from over. will we be vaccinating forever now? On some sort of short-term interval…3,6,9 months?


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## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> If we all need a 3rd shot in the fall, then this is far from over. will we be vaccinating forever now? On some sort of short-term interval…3,6,9 months?


Like annual flu shots


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## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> Like annual flu shots


Yes, but the take up on flu shots vs expected take up on COVID vaccines. Are we in for permanent mass clinics? Those building will go back to their eventual use by the fall I would suspect.


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## moderator2

The topic of this thread is vaccines. Please stay on topic.

I deleted another 20 or 30 posts.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Yes, but the take up on flu shots vs expected take up on COVID vaccines. Are we in for permanent mass clinics? Those building will go back to their eventual use by the fall I would suspect.


"Mass clinics"? We routinely vaccinate 30-40% for flu shots. I'd expect COVID19 to be similar.





__





Seasonal influenza vaccination coverage in Canada, 2019-2020 - Canada.ca


This report summarizes the results from the national 2019–2020 Seasonal Influenza Vaccination Coverage Survey. Respondents were questioned regarding their influenza vaccine uptake for the 2019–2020 season, reasons for vaccination or non-vaccination, knowledge, attitudes, and beliefs (KAB)...




www.canada.ca





This whole "mass vaccination" thing seems silly, we had the highest flu shot takeup in years, and we were done everyone within 2 months. We're able to inject the vaccine faster than we can get it. If we got enough COVID19 vaccine we'd be done.

I think the media isn't helping this.


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## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> "Mass clinics"? We routinely vaccinate 30-40% for flu shots. I'd expect COVID19 to be similar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seasonal influenza vaccination coverage in Canada, 2019-2020 - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> This report summarizes the results from the national 2019–2020 Seasonal Influenza Vaccination Coverage Survey. Respondents were questioned regarding their influenza vaccine uptake for the 2019–2020 season, reasons for vaccination or non-vaccination, knowledge, attitudes, and beliefs (KAB)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canada.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This whole "mass vaccination" thing seems silly, we had the highest flu shot takeup in years, and we were done everyone within 2 months. We're able to inject the vaccine faster than we can get it. If we got enough COVID19 vaccine we'd be done.
> 
> I think the media isn't helping this.


I suppose. But 40% of the population 18+ getting one shot seems a little easier than the hoped-for 70-80% of the covid shot for 12+. I would think we would need double the capacity for an annual (or regular) covid shot. And what if they can’t combine the flu and COVID shot? Will we need two annual vaccines spaced out?

what’s causing the lineups at some places? excess demand, lack of immunizers? my Family breezed through a pharmacy and mass clinic for our shots, but I know others wait in line for hours.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Exactly, this is the reason why second dose is not so much important,* it needs to be an upgraded with new variants booster, given to everyone in fall, other wise we will have winter no different from the last one.


 ... so you're banking on the notion that the first dose will cover you fully from the original virus, presumably still floating around? Or that the Covid virus are only the variants now?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ... so you're banking on the notion that the first dose will cover you fully from the original virus, presumably still floating around? Or that the Covid virus are only the variants now?


Well, the first dose might give me some protection theoretically, but then the Wuhan virus is constantly muting and it would make more sense instead getting the second shot with the same vaccine (already off by months from manufacture required scheduling) get the upgraded boost in fall. Anyhow in Ontario only 6% vaccinated.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Well, the first dose might give me some protection theoretically, but then the Wuhan virus is constantly muting and it would make more sense instead getting the second shot with the same vaccine (already off by months from manufacture required scheduling) get the upgraded boost in fall. Anyhow in Ontario only 6% vaccinated.


 ... I'm not sure you're making sense here (aka your credibility) with the first dose giving you some protection "theoretically" on the Wuhan/KungFu/ChineseFlu, etc. virus? 

Plus, what official timeline are you following that Ontario is only "6% vaccinated"??? Do you meant Ontario is only 6% "second-dose "vaccinated at this point in time? I think it's more than that ... start with healthcare workers, not just those in LTCs, but hospitals, dental clinics + private party healthcare providers, etc.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ... I'm not sure you're making sense here (aka your credibility) with the first dose giving you some protection "theoretically" on the Wuhan/KungFu/ChineseFlu, etc. virus?
> 
> Plus, what official timeline are you following that Ontario is only "6% vaccinated"??? Do you meant Ontario is only 6% "second-dose "vaccinated at this point in time? I think it's more than that ... start with healthcare workers, not just those in LTCs, but hospitals, dental clinics + private party healthcare providers, etc.


 Yesterday was listening to CBC radio while driving and 6% was mentioned. 
Why theoretically, because it is the retrospective game, and we assume the vaccine effectiveness based on the mutants that were circulating yesterday, while we should concentrating on developing vaccines effective against variants of tomorrow


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Yesterday was listening to CBC radio while driving and 6% was mentioned.
> Why theoretically, because it is the retrospective game, and we assume the vaccine effectiveness based on the mutants that were circulating yesterday, while we should concentrating on developing vaccines effective against variants of tomorrow


 ... ok. Since it's a restrospective game, then it isn't "theoretical" at all because it did happen. I think you're jumping way ahead of the game here and trying to make forecasts. You've to start somewhere with "a vaccine" and so far, it's working against the original mutant. 

I believe Pfizer, et al are working on 'booster' shots to tackle the variants of tomorrow. Or are you still going by your 2023 theory on getting the vaccine (or the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, nth, etc. shot now)? You do realize that the shots don't cost you anything, at least not out of pocket for now.


----------



## Money172375

Pfizer vaccine produces less antibodies against Delta variant of coronavirus: Lancet study


People fully vaccinated with the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine are likely to have more than five times lower levels of neutralising antibodies against the Delta variant first identified in India compared to the original strain, according to research published in The Lancet journal.




www.tribuneindia.com





appears vaccines are less effective against Delta. Seems minister of health in Ontario let it slip that they may open up 2nd shots to all ages to try and get ahead of this.


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## Beaver101

^ What other choice do "we (including the "experts")" have at the moment to deal with Delta, Emma,. Gamma, Omega, etc.? Bleach? Wait ... we haven't tried the Jansen (or is it J&J) vaccine.


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## sags

Yup.......I listened to an expert who said the vaccines have not been tested against the India virus at all, and the protection levels against death and "very serious" symptoms are reduced by the vaccines against the other variants. But.......he stressed that people can still get the virus and get pretty sick even if vaccinated. They likely won't die.......but it won't be much fun and they can also spread the virus. He said we have to continue to wear masks and more importantly........avoid close contact in crowds.

The Vietnam variant is also spreading and is classified by the Vietnamese as "very dangerous".........whatever that means.

The virus mutated much faster than scientists believed it could and would. It has outpaced our ability to deal with it.

Maybe that was some kind of "gain of function" developed in the Wuhan lab.


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## sags

Scientists don't like to admit they don't know the answer to something.

It makes for short interviews in the media, which is problematic for the scientists trying to raise research money.

_What do you think will happen ?_........asks the interviewer.

_I have no idea_........answers the scientist.

_Thanks for the interview_..........says the reporter ending the interview.


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## sags

Dr. Fauci (head of NIH).........to the best of my knowledge there has never been a lab leak of a virus.

Dr. Scott Gottlieb (former head of the FDA) ........there have been many lab leaks of viruses.

The general public.........huh ?

Protect yourself.........nobody else is going to do it for you.


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## Ukrainiandude

Money172375 said:


> appears vaccines are less effective against Delta.


 exactly proves my point, if it isn’t/less effective against Indian variant, what is the point of the second shot with the same vaccine, just wait for the upgraded booster in fall.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> exactly proves my point, if it isn’t/less effective against Indian variant, what is the point of the second shot with the same vaccine, just wait for the upgraded booster in fall.


 ... so what happens to all the 2nd dose (now useless) vaccines procured? Donate them to undeveloped-world countries waiting to get their first dose? 

And in the meantime, prolonging the agony of "some" Canadians, screaming for mask, social distancing, lock-down restrictions, relief?

Whilst waiting for the booster shots ... against ... now the Vietnamese variant ... which country is next?


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Yup.......I listened to an expert who said the vaccines have not been tested against the India virus at all, and the protection levels against death and "very serious" symptoms are reduced by the vaccines against the other variants. But.......he stressed that people can still get the virus and get pretty sick even if vaccinated. They likely won't die.......but it won't be much fun and they can also spread the virus. He said we have to continue to wear masks and more importantly........avoid close contact in crowds.
> 
> The Vietnam variant is also spreading and is classified by the Vietnamese as "very dangerous".........whatever that means.
> 
> *The virus mutated much faster than scientists believed it could and would. It has outpaced our ability to deal with it.*
> 
> Maybe that was some kind of "gain of function" developed in the Wuhan lab.


 ... based on your thinking, I think we're doomed as a human species. Did China wanted this?


----------



## sags

China didn't "want" this, but it was arrogance that set it all in motion.

Only scientists possessing a high level of overconfidence in their own ability to control destiny would work on the most dangerous viruses in a laboratory that didn't deploy even the most basic security protection.

The lab in Wuhan wasn't much more secure than a high school chemistry classroom. Who thought that was good practice ?

Why would the US fund such a lab to do high level research ? What is the Canadian Winnipeg lab's connection to Wuhan ?

All the blame doesn't fall on just China.

The "gain of function" research in Wuhan was well known, just as it continues in labs in North America and around the world.


----------



## Spudd

The second dose is found to help a lot against the Indian variant:








Covid: Pfizer and AstraZeneca jabs work against Indian variant - study


They are effective against symptomatic disease but protection is low after only one dose, a study says.



www.bbc.com


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> I suppose. But 40% of the population 18+ getting one shot seems a little easier than the hoped-for 70-80% of the covid shot for 12+. I would think we would need double the capacity for an annual (or regular) covid shot. And what if they can’t combine the flu and COVID shot? Will we need two annual vaccines spaced out?
> 
> what’s causing the lineups at some places? excess demand, lack of immunizers? my Family breezed through a pharmacy and mass clinic for our shots, but I know others wait in line for hours.


" I would think we would need double the capacity for an annual (or regular) covid shot." I don't see why, we don't have problems administering that number of Flu shots. We didn't even have much trouble handling the massive influx with the last flu shot, despite the increased protocols due to COVID19.

I think the reason they're waiting in lines is because they didn't make appointments.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> I think the reason they're waiting in lines is because they didn't make appointments.


Yeah, I'm confused when I hear about lines. 

For myself, I made an appointment for my 2 shots at specific dates and time. When I showed up for dose 1 at that date and time I went in and got my shot?

Lines maybe form if they have some sort of flash hot spot situation?

ltr


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> "Mass clinics"? We routinely vaccinate 30-40% for flu shots. I'd expect COVID19 to be similar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seasonal influenza vaccination coverage in Canada, 2019-2020 - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> This report summarizes the results from the national 2019–2020 Seasonal Influenza Vaccination Coverage Survey. Respondents were questioned regarding their influenza vaccine uptake for the 2019–2020 season, reasons for vaccination or non-vaccination, knowledge, attitudes, and beliefs (KAB)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canada.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This whole "mass vaccination" thing seems silly, we had the highest flu shot takeup in years, and we were done everyone within 2 months. We're able to inject the vaccine faster than we can get it. If we got enough COVID19 vaccine we'd be done.
> 
> I think the media isn't helping this.


It will be much simpler if/when we have low levels of infection in the community. Right now, the deployment is requiring a lot of precautions and distancing, since COVID is so contagious (far more than flu).


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> It will be much simpler if/when we have low levels of infection in the community. Right now, the deployment is requiring a lot of precautions and distancing, since COVID is so contagious (far more than flu).


I've got to say that the mass vaccination clinic I went to in BC was kind of scary. It was a huge number of people flowing through -- kind of like a busy airport. Big lines, and lots of waiting in line with people all around you. The staff did enforce masks, and even provided masks and made people replace their flimsy cloth masks with good surgical masks (which was great), but I still wonder if those mass clinics might be spreading some COVID.

(Still amazing to me that people are using flimsy cloth masks at this point, since these offer minimal protection, and even disposable surgical masks are superior)

After I got vaccinated, I used a covid risk modeling tool to estimate the danger of this vaccination clinic based on the density of people. According to the modeling tool, the risk was quite low. The factors which brought the risk levels down were

low community rates of COVID around where I live
minimal talking in the facility (remember, *don't* talk or chit chat)
mostly 6 ft distance around me

Whenever you are in doubt, the easiest thing is to keep your mouth shut (don't talk) and maintain a 6 ft radius around you. I had an umbrella with me and kept pointing the sharp part of it behind me, to keep the clueless 20-something girl behind me from getting too close. She was playing a game on her phone and kept trying to come within spitting distance of me.


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## Beaver101

^ There was an infection at one of several mass vaccination center in Toronto (can't recall which one exactly) but the one I attended was well organized. The "prep work" before vaccination probably took the longest, checkpoint 1, screening, registry, check/in/point2, lineup to be assigned booth/jabber, get jab, then sit for 15 minutes with the after-jab care, and then checkout with something like 5 sheets of info to carry out with you.

Re "_Whenever you are in doubt, the easiest thing is to keep your mouth shut (don't talk) and maintain a 6 ft radius around you_.", I hold my breath (as long as I can) while trying to weave around those less than 6' away, without their mask and mouth wide open! And yes, even with my mask on!

*20something (not only age band) playing a game on phone= clueless = sounds right.*


----------



## Kilbarry20

*After I got vaccinated, I used a covid risk modeling tool to estimate the danger of this vaccination clinic based on the density of people. According to the modeling tool, the risk was quite low. The factors which brought the risk levels down were*

*low community rates of COVID around where I live*
*minimal talking in the facility (remember, don't talk or chit chat)*
*mostly 6 ft distance around me*
*
Whenever you are in doubt, the easiest thing is to keep your mouth shut (don't talk) and maintain a 6 ft radius around you*

The above is excellent advice. It goes with all the other safety parameters, beyond masks, that only the completely clueless are unaware of- by now: outside far better than in, large indoor spaces, less time, less density, etc.

And absolutely, be aware of what the Covid situation is, in your surrounding neighbourhood. There is a detailed hood by hood Covid case map on the City of Toronto website. I have been tracking my own and those immediately adjacent, since the data was first posted in Spring, 2020. So I know, when my little health area has been uber safe v.s. dangerous. And it IS calming now, as Canada reached 61% of single vaccinations (4th on the planet) and 6% double. Ontario closely parallels this. Toronto reached 70% first vax 4 days ago!

We all know by now, the procurement & rollout FUBARs of our 2 senior levels of government and continued mixed stepping on message, by our MOH & viral epidemiology experts. Get beyond that noise. There will be more than enough time, post plague, to write the finger pointing book and the 5 Ws of what not to do!

Do NOT sit back and wait for government to come to you. Talk to your family and neighbours and every available social media network to locate the smallest, pharmacy, pop up clinic or specific vax location, made possible by the superb and aggressive efforts of individual pharmacists, community spokespersons, city politicians to find, call and obtain your second shot. We simply cannot all move forward towards normalcy until you do.

My wife and I got our second AZ last Monday and our 36 year old daughter is about to get her second Pfizer this week, along with our son.


----------



## damian13ster

Didn't MIT prove that in enclosed places distancing is absolutely useless since virus is airborne and concentration rises with time? The advice was not to focus on distance (they said as long as it is above 2-3ft), but to focus on duration spent indoors.

Personally, going to small pharmacy to get a vaccine to limit time indoors.

The bbc article only confirms what was being told for past 2 months. First dose is wildly ineffective against variants. Only 2nd dose increases protection significantly. Wonder how many seniors were killed by government ignoring science and manufacturers of the vaccine and making up their own rules.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> It will be much simpler if/when we have low levels of infection in the community. Right now, the deployment is requiring a lot of precautions and distancing, since COVID is so contagious (far more than flu).


I'm not sure about that, lots of people get the flu, but the death rate is lower, particularly since older people are heavily vaccinated (I posted to a link showing 70% update in Canada for 70+)

I think that COVID19 is uniquely contagious and potentially lethal, that's the problem.
Nobody cares when a cold goes through a classroom, because that virus (often a rhinovirus or coronavirus) doesn't hospitalize many people.


----------



## sags

Unfortunately, the vaccine shots simply haven't been available everywhere, so people are forced to wait for an appointment.

In Ontario, we have "essential workers" still waiting for their 1st shot. Employers are still trying to get their employees vaccinated.


----------



## james4beach

Kilbarry20 said:


> Do NOT sit back and wait for government to come to you. Talk to your family and neighbours and every available social media network to locate the smallest, pharmacy, pop up clinic or specific vax location, made possible by the superb and aggressive efforts of individual pharmacists, community spokespersons, city politicians to find, call and obtain your second shot. We simply cannot all move forward towards normalcy until you do.
> 
> My wife and I got our second AZ last Monday and our 36 year old daughter is about to get her second Pfizer this week, along with our son.


Yes it's a good idea to talk to your local pharmacists.

I'm curious how your 36 year old daughter was able to get her second Pfizer dose. Those aren't done at pharmacies, so she must have coordinated this with the provincial government. Are they already booking second shots for people this young?

I would appreciate any info you can share on that. I'm around her age and only have one shot (and everyone I know at my age only has one shot) so I'm really curious how she got booked for a second. In fact nearly everyone around my age, who I know personally, just only got the first shot within the last two weeks.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Yes it's a good idea to talk to your local pharmacists.
> 
> I'm curious how your 36 year old daughter was able to get her second Pfizer dose. Those aren't done at pharmacies, so she must have coordinated this with the provincial government. Are they already booking second shots for people this young?
> 
> I would appreciate any info you can share on that. I'm around her age and only have one shot (and everyone I know at my age only has one shot) so I'm really curious how she got booked for a second. In fact nearly everyone around my age, who I know personally, just only got the first shot within the last two weeks.


Pfizer is available at pharmacies in Ontario. There’s all kind of loop holes. an acquaintance I know in the trades had to do work at at a long term care facility and got a letter attesting to that. Apparently , that letter got passed around to his family and they all got shots ahead of the line.


----------



## Kilbarry20

james4beach said:


> Yes it's a good idea to talk to your local pharmacists.
> 
> I'm curious how your 36 year old daughter was able to get her second Pfizer dose. Those aren't done at pharmacies, so she must have coordinated this with the provincial government. Are they already booking second shots for people this young?
> 
> I would appreciate any info you can share on that. I'm around her age and only have one shot (and everyone I know at my age only has one shot) so I'm really curious how she got booked for a second. In fact nearly everyone around my age, who I know personally, just only got the first shot within the last two weeks.


She hasn’t got it yet. But, she expects to this week, along with our son, who is getting his today at a Pharmacy. Hers may be at a mass, regional, postal site or a pop up. Uncertain. Everything is coordinated with the Province, but most persons have long lost confidence in THEIR ability to provide immediate and non conflicted direction. You use your own resources.

Btw, there is a family medical issue that got her in, back in early April.

UPDATE: My Son (38) got his second Pfizer about an hour ago. Our neighbours told us about this Pop Up Clinic opened today until 5:00p.m., with no lineup in the city and we raced down. He was out in 20 minutes total.👍


----------



## MrMatt

Hmm, wonder why Signapore has reports of thousands of serious reactions to mRNA, but they're pretty silent in the rest of the world.


https://ca.news.yahoo.com/some-2000-severe-adverse-reaction-pfizer-moderna-vaccine-moh-155029894.html


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> I'm not sure about that, lots of people get the flu, but the death rate is lower, particularly since older people are heavily vaccinated (I posted to a link showing 70% update in Canada for 70+)
> 
> I think that COVID19 is uniquely contagious and potentially lethal, that's the problem.
> Nobody cares when a cold goes through a classroom, because that virus (often a rhinovirus or coronavirus) doesn't hospitalize many people.


If we are down to dozens of infections per day when it is time for booster, we should be able to do the booster with minimal precautions much like we do the flu shot, and not industrial scale vaccination centres.


----------



## andrewf

That is very strange. You hear about some rare issues like enlarged heart with Pfizer, but not at that kind of rate (2k cases out of a population of a few million).


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Hmm, wonder why Signapore has reports of thousands of serious reactions to mRNA, but they're pretty silent in the rest of the world.
> 
> 
> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/some-2000-severe-adverse-reaction-pfizer-moderna-vaccine-moh-155029894.html


Yeah, that's very strange. This article says these are all cases of anaphylaxis!

Good news ... those are easy to catch and treatable. That's why you need to linger around after vaccination, for at least half an hour. For good measure, I lingered around the facility for 60 minutes after getting the shot.

But it's very unusual. If we had that much anaphylaxis in Canada, we'd know, because it's quite a scene. That's not a subtle side effect.

I wonder if there is a regional environmental issue, like perhaps in the food or environment, which results in more allergic reactions in SG to the MRNA constituents, which are a synthetic PEG used in the lipid nanoparticle formulation (LNP). I posted a thread on this early in the pandemic. Some people are allergic to PEG. It's used in cosmetics products as well.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Yeah, that's very strange. This article says these are all cases of anaphylaxis!
> 
> Good news ... those are easy to catch and treatable. That's why you need to linger around after vaccination, for at least half an hour. For good measure, I lingered around the facility for 60 minutes after getting the shot.
> 
> But it's very unusual. If we had that much anaphylaxis in Canada, we'd know, because it's quite a scene. That's not a subtle side effect.
> 
> I wonder if there is a regional environmental issue, like perhaps in the food or environment, which results in more allergic reactions in SG to the MRNA constituents, which are a synthetic PEG used in the lipid nanoparticle formulation (LNP). I posted a thread on this early in the pandemic. Some people are allergic to PEG. It's used in cosmetics products as well.


I have quite a bit of experience to various allergic reactions, some are obvious and acute, some are less obvious (and just as life threatening.
For example throat swelling isn't obvious, the person experiencing it might not even be aware that's the problem.









Anaphylaxis: Causes, Symptoms & Diagnosis


Anaphylaxis can occur when you have a severe reaction to certain allergens. Learn what the symptoms are and what to do if this happens.




www.healthline.com


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> I have quite a bit of experience to various allergic reactions, some are obvious and acute, some are less obvious (and just as life threatening.
> For example throat swelling isn't obvious, the person experiencing it might not even be aware that's the problem.


Interesting, thanks, I did not know that. What advice would you give to someone regarding the serious allergic reactions after a vaccination?

The clinic I went to asked people to only wait 15 minutes, which seemed too short to me. Is the message that we should actually wait indoors (under observation) for 30 minutes?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> wonder why Signapore has reports of thousands


Perhaps Singapore has more transparency and government is not hiding anything. I personally felt very uncomfortable (tiredness, profusely sweating especially at night, sleepy during the day, but couldn’t get a normal sleep during the night) after my first dose, took about two three weeks before I got back to my normal condition. Do you think health authority marked my case down? I don’t think so. This is the reason for me to avoid the second shot, as people say the side effects are even worse.


----------



## agent99

Today we found out we were allowed to register on standby for 2nd shots (not announced, just a small alteration on the local health dept web site). We registered at about 9:30am, had a call at 4:15, drove over (30min) and were done by 5:30. Not many stations or people in a huge arena. If they had communicated the availability, it would have been full.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

agent99 said:


> to register on standby for 2nd shots


Did you get the first and second dose three weeks apart as required by Pfizer?


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> Perhaps Singapore has more transparency and government is not hiding anything. I personally felt very uncomfortable (tiredness, profusely sweating especially at night, sleepy during the day, but couldn’t get a normal sleep during the night) after my first dose, took about two three weeks before I got back to my normal condition. Do you think health authority marked my case down? I don’t think so. This is the reason for me to avoid the second shot, as people say the side effects are even worse.


Did you report it? ~30% of people experience some side effect from Pfizer, mostly headache, malaise, soreness, fever and fatigue.


----------



## Plugging Along

Ukrainiandude said:


> Did you get the first and second dose three weeks apart as required by Pfizer?


I am not sure if you realize that 3 week is the MINIMUM time recommended. I know people who are in the industry and help make these recommendations (hence no link, I rely on them). Based on past vaccines which require two doses, pharmaceuticals usually provide a range in the vaccine schedule. The first date is the minimum amount of time in which has been tested to provide the body enough time to build the immunity to the first level of effacacy. The body will continue to build immunity after this minimum time. In fact, in other vaccines requiring two doses waiting longer between doses will provide more immunity.

With COVID, they tried to find the fastest times possible, which is the 3 week period, health care providers will generally not give a second dose before minimum time. In fact it is probably better to provide them a little further a part. However, with the COVID vaccines, it makes sense that the manufactures were focused on the fastest time possible to get it to the people. Now, they are finding that waiting longer (just like other vaccines) are just as safe, but may be even more beneficial. The challenge is that no one know exactly when it starts to decline, but it's probably closer to the 5 or 6 month mark (based on things beyond what I was explained)

I just had my second dose about 7 weeks apart, and though could I probably get my kid in for their second dose at closer to the 3/4 week mark, I am intentionally waiting to about 7 or 8 weeks.


----------



## damian13ster

They provided range. Maximum is 42 days


----------



## gibor365

I missed 1st vaccine by 1 day.... Last week THP started to invite for 2nd dose ppl who got vaccine on Apr 18 or earlier.....I got on Apr 19


----------



## Plugging Along

damian13ster said:


> They provided range. Maximum is 42 days


 I must have missed that. I got my in 55 days... I haven't died from COVID or the vaccine, and seem to be fine so far. I still stand by its safer to get your second shot even if it's after the 42 days than to take the chances with COVID and the variants, which is only about ~30% effective with one shot.


----------



## damian13ster

Plugging Along said:


> I must have missed that. I got my in 55 days... I haven't died from COVID or the vaccine, and seem to be fine so far. I still stand by its safer to get your second shot even if it's after the 42 days than to take the chances with COVID and the variants, which is only about ~30% effective with one shot.


They don't really advertise they are ignoring recommendations of the scientists who created the vaccine.
Government website, as of January 2021:

The National Advisory Committee on Immunization (NACI) addresses the question of delaying the second dose of vaccine in their updated _Recommendations on the use of COVID-19 Vaccine__. _Within the limitations of currently available data, NACI advises that while the second dose should be given according to the approved schedule if possible, jurisdictions may consider delaying the second dose due to logistic or epidemiologic reasons until further supplies of the vaccine become available, preferably within 42 days (6 weeks) of the first dose. In their expert view, this interval increase is expected to yield similarly high protection seen with second dose administration at 21 or 28 days after the first dose. This is consistent with recommendations released on January 8, 2021 by the World Health Organization that provides flexibility to extend the dose interval up to 42 days in circumstances of vaccine supply constraint and high disease burden.

Canada’s Chief Medical Officers of Health support NACI’s recommendations. We agree that administration of two doses of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines must be maintained in line with current evidence and regulatory approvals, and efforts should be made to keep with the manufacturers’ vaccine schedule.


Pfizer fact sheet:



https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download


----------



## Beaver101

An anti-vax nurse tried, and failed, to make a key stick to her neck as proof that COVID-19 vaccines make you magnetic



> _A woman testifying at an Ohio Statehouse hearing made a failed attempt to get a key and a bobby pin to stick to her neck Tuesday, frustrating her attempt to prove a conspiracy theory that COVID-19 vaccines make people magnetic.
> 
> The woman, who was *identified as a nurse* by the local news site the Ohio Capital Journal, was speaking at a hearing to promote the GOP-sponsored House Bill 248, which addresses civil liberties around vaccines.
> 
> Taking the stand, the unnamed nurse tried a practical demonstration of the conspiracy theory. Video of the testimony was posted by the Ohio Capital Journal reporter Tyler Buchanan:
> ...
> *The nurse said she took her cues from an earlier speaker, the conspiracist doctor Sherri Tenpenny, *who wrote "Saying No to Vaccines" and had been invited to the hearing by Republicans. ... _


 ... I guess these 2 got their 5 minutes of fame. Why the hell do they want to be healthcare providers in the first place when a career in conspiracy theorying would be better suited for them with better pay too. 

These 2 might have better luck on AGT with Simon being one of the judges ... LMAO.


----------



## Beaver101

Vaccine lottery: Manitobans eligible for cash, scholarships if they get a COVID shot

Manitobans need to be bribed to get vaccinated? Wow, that's so UNCanadian.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> Vaccine lottery: Manitobans eligible for cash, scholarships if they get a COVID shot
> 
> Manitobans need to be bribed to get vaccinated? Wow, that's so UNCanadian.


 Might be not only Manitobans.
*Sask. first doses stall, but 'too early' to say if vaccine ceiling has been reached, economist says


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/sask-vaccine-uptake-1.6056483


*








I personally should have waited for my first shot before cash is offered. Hopefully will get some cash for my second dose.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> Vaccine lottery: Manitobans eligible for cash, scholarships if they get a COVID shot
> 
> Manitobans need to be bribed to get vaccinated? Wow, that's so UNCanadian.


We're literally seizing peoples money to bribe people to take care of themselves.

Really, at this point the reason to take my money really isn't morally justified.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> We're literally seizing peoples money to bribe people to take care of themselves.


Exactly, and it's especially annoying where you have areas like Ottawa that are begging for vaccines, and every single one they receive is snapped up in a second. Send all vaccines to where people don't need to be bribed.

ltr


----------



## sags

There used to be smoking and non smoking areas in restaurants. Maybe we will need vaccinated and non vaccinated areas.

I doubt people will want to return to crowded restaurants if they don't know how many unvaccinated people are sitting around them.

Businesses want to open to full capacity, so it is likely vaccinations will be required.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Heart inflammation in young men higher than expected after Pfizer, Moderna vaccines -U.S. CDC
A higher-than-expected number of young men have experienced heart inflammation after their second dose of the mRNA COVID-19 shots from Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna, according to data from two vaccine safety monitoring systems, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said on Thursday.*


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> There used to be smoking and non smoking areas in restaurants. Maybe we will need vaccinated and non vaccinated areas.
> 
> I doubt people will want to return to crowded restaurants if they don't know how many unvaccinated people are sitting around them.
> 
> Businesses want to open to full capacity, so it is likely vaccinations will be required.
> 
> View attachment 21770


I am willing to make a friendly bet that in 2 months noone will even remember about vaccines, care about passports, verification, etc. People aren't meant to be segregated and it won't take long before they aren't.
You also would be discriminating against people who can't get vaccinated for genuine reasons


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> There used to be smoking and non smoking areas in restaurants. Maybe we will need vaccinated and non vaccinated areas.
> 
> I doubt people will want to return to crowded restaurants if they don't know how many unvaccinated people are sitting around them.
> 
> Businesses want to open to full capacity, so it is likely vaccinations will be required.


Smoking releases toxic pollution, you're actively poisoning people. Also smoking and non smoking sections didn't work, which is why they got rid of them.

You seem to think you have the right to tell other people what they should do. That's not the way a free country is supposed to work.
Also history, and even present day, the authoritarian states really tend not to do too well, though I think Singapore is a very interesting exception.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Might be not only Manitobans.
> *Sask. first doses stall, but 'too early' to say if vaccine ceiling has been reached, economist says
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/sask-vaccine-uptake-1.6056483
> 
> 
> *
> View attachment 21769
> 
> I personally should have waited for my first shot before cash is offered. *Hopefully will get some cash for my second dose.*


 ... wishful thinking if you do not reside in Manitoba (or Saskatchewan). Maybe Manitoba will offer free baby-sitting services too for ages 12 and above.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> I am willing to make a friendly bet that in 2 months noone will even remember about vaccines, care about passports, verification, etc. People aren't meant to be segregated and it won't take long before they aren't.
> You also would be discriminating against people who can't get vaccinated for genuine reasons


If there are enough un-vaccinated people to justify it.......businesses will provide more space for them in the un-vaccinated section.........out back.


----------



## sags

Personally I won't enter any restaurant that doesn't require vaccinations, and I think a lot of other people would avoid such places.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Personally I won't enter any restaurant that doesn't require vaccinations, and I think a lot of other people would avoid such places.


Why?
If you're vaccinated, the risk is miniscule.

Honestly, give the vaccine to those who want it, and those who don't, don't get it.
I think everyone should get vaccinated, but your body your choice, and we have no right to demand a medical intervention on another person.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> Personally I won't enter any restaurant that doesn't require vaccinations, and I think a lot of other people would avoid such places.


Sounds like you won't be going to any restaurants, then.


----------



## sags

I won't be going to any restaurants that don't require vaccinations. I suspect I will still have lots of choices.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I won't be going to any restaurants that don't require vaccinations. I suspect I will have lots of choices.


I don't believe a restaurant can deny access to someone because they don't have a vaccination.
Most obviously religious exemptions.
Secondly millions of Canadians are prohibited from getting vaccinations.
Then of course there are many where this vaccination may not be medically appropriate.

The most important thing is that I do not think it is reasonable to require a person to undertake a potentially lethal medical intervention to access a public restaurant. 








Covid-19: Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine is “likely” responsible for deaths of some elderly patients, Norwegian review finds


The Pfizer-BioNTech covid-19 vaccine is “likely” to have been responsible for at least 10 deaths of frail elderly people in nursing homes in Norway, an expert review commissioned by the Norwegian Medicines Agency has concluded. The expert group was established at the end of February 2021 to...




www.bmj.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> Personally I won't enter any restaurant that doesn't require vaccinations, and I think a lot of other people would avoid such places.


 If you are vaccinated and protected. What difference would it make for you? Just curious


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> If you are vaccinated and protected. What difference would it make for you? Just curious


Authoritarians don't need a reason to force others.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> If there are enough un-vaccinated people to justify it.......businesses will provide more space for them in the un-vaccinated section.........out back.


Why would they even be looking for justification? Just have one space for everyone instead of limiting your customer base by not utilizing capacity of the restaurant efficiently. That's what restaurants are doing, and clearly, they aren't hurt by it by any means. Hard to get a space on a patio for a past week - all fully booked


----------



## :) lonewolf

We have come full circle the vaccinated are being told not to travel now due to blood clots. No link since moderator removed link. Must be a conspiracy theory that long distance flights & vaccines have any connection to blood clots ?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Here is the question, what would be the longest interval between the shots to reduce the severity of side effects of the second dose? Don’t care about efficiency and this point as already missed the due date by manufacturer. Simply want to have the same rights in this authoritarian society.


----------



## damian13ster

You would have to wait for antibodies to wear off. Talking about 10+ months at the very least, at least for natural disease. Not sure about vaccines.
The increase in severity of side effects have been reported for people that already had antibodies.

Question: can one go for anti-body testing and if there is enough anti-bodies be exempt from vaccinations?
What is the point of it if you already have the protection, and you would knowingly be exposing yourself to risk without any benefits.
It has already been proven that antibodies from fighting the disease last at least 11 months, and that is only because that is the longest time period investigated so far.


----------



## Spudd

:) lonewolf said:


> We have come full circle the vaccinated are being told not to travel now due to blood clots. No link since moderator removed link. Must be a conspiracy theory that long distance flights & vaccines have any connection to blood clots ?











NOT REAL NEWS: A look at what didn't happen this week


A roundup of some of the most popular but completely untrue stories and visuals of the week. None of these are legit, even though they were shared widely on social media. The Associated Press checked them out.




apnews.com


----------



## Money172375

Looks like ontario is lowering interval to 8 weeks for 2nd shot after AZ? What to do?!

mrna? aZ? Some studies say the mixture is good? If going with AZ again, neat to wait 8 weeks.

agh! I wish they never told us the manufacturer.

who manufactured your measles, mumps, rubella, chick pox vaccine?


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> who manufactured your measles, mumps, rubella, chick pox vaccine?


Good point and who knows. I received a series of these vaccines spanning 25 years... no idea what brand they were.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Money172375 said:


> who manufactured your measles, mumps, rubella, chick pox vaccine?


Merck


----------



## Ukrainiandude

On Aug 11, 2020, Russia became the first country in the world to approve a vaccine against severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).
and one year after 
June 12, 2021 Moscow Shuts Down Workweek Over Massive COVID-19 Spike.

apparently the vaccine is ineffective or there’s another resistant variant


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> On Aug 11, 2020, Russia became the first country in the world to approve a vaccine against severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).
> and one year after
> June 12, 2021 Moscow Shuts Down Workweek Over Massive COVID-19 Spike.
> 
> apparently the vaccine is ineffective or there’s another resistant variant


According to here: COVID-19 Data Explorer they only have about 13% of their population vaccinated. So they might have been first but they sure weren't good at vaccinating everyone.


----------



## gibor365

Spudd said:


> According to here: COVID-19 Data Explorer they only have about 13% of their population vaccinated. So they might have been first but they sure weren't good at vaccinating everyone.


Yeap....There are plenty of vaccines in Russia , but majority of people don't want to be vaccinated. I have a lot of family and friends in Russia, but only about 10% got vaccine.. btw, maybe half of our Russian friends and family who live in Canada/US got vaccines... other half don't want for different reasons....


----------



## Beaver101

^ Funny news in post #2590. I thought the Russian Sputnik was a superior vaccine.


----------



## sags

I hope there hasn't been another deadly variant created in an idiot country that won't vaccinate.

One of these days a variant may be created that renders vaccines useless and we will be back to full lock downs and CERB again.


----------



## MK7GTI

sags said:


> I hope there hasn't been another deadly variant created in an idiot country that won't vaccinate.
> 
> One of these days a variant may be created that renders vaccines useless and we will be back to full lock downs and CERB again.


What is the point of this post? Just trolling? Stirring the pot it seems.


----------



## Tostig

sags said:


> I hope there hasn't been another deadly variant created in an idiot country that won't vaccinate.
> 
> One of these days a variant may be created that renders vaccines useless and we will be back to full lock downs and CERB again.


It depends how effectively Covid-deniers and their victims are spreading not only the virus, but any of the four variants. Everytime one spreads to a new host, there's a possibility of mutation. Effective vaccinations would help suppress the spreading.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I hope there hasn't been another deadly variant created in an idiot country that won't vaccinate.
> 
> One of these days a variant may be created that renders vaccines useless and we will be back to full lock downs and CERB again.


There are very likely many variants of all types.
There almost certainly will be another pandemic of some sort in the future, they happen regularly.

Hopefully we figure out better ways to prevent spread than lockdowns and subsidizing the destruction of our economy.
The one lesson learned here is that we need to close our borders to this type of threat. I


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> There are very likely many variants of all types.
> There almost certainly will be another pandemic of some sort in the future, they happen regularly.
> 
> Hopefully we figure out better ways to prevent spread than lockdowns and subsidizing the destruction of our economy.
> The one lesson learned here is that we need to close our borders to this type of threat. I


I agree! This is why I'm bullish on Pfizer (stock)... I expect a lot of different busters for different variants from them and I'm pretty sure that people who started with PFE, will continue getting PFE busters


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> I agree! This is why I'm bullish on Pfizer (stock)... I expect a lot of different busters for different variants from them and I'm pretty sure that people who started with PFE, will continue getting PFE busters


I think that brand loyalty for COVID19 will fade about as fast as the pandemic does.
Also they got lucky, Moderna has the same technology but just didn't get the name out there.

Then remember AZ managed to proceed with conventional technology and has massively scaled production. 

As far as boosters, some will no doubt "prefer" the Pfizer, but if someone offered a Delta variant that was more effective, I think most people will flock to it, irrespective of the name on the vial.


----------



## Beaver101

MK7GTI said:


> What is the point of this post? Just trolling? Stirring the pot it seems.


 ... it's funny that the poster who agreed with you on this initiated this trolling thing (if you followed through the threads). It's like the pot calling the kettle black.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

See, that is why I should have waited for the first dose.
sask
now I can only get the second dose after June 21 which would be 7 weeks apart (that is if I am able to book an appointment) vs 3 weeks manufacturer interval. 
I guess, wasted shot for authoritarian government political gains.
Unless it’s enforced I won’t be getting the second dose. 
I would have if governments had provided appropriate organization of the process.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Chances are slim, but nevertheless 
Japan's health ministry says seven people have developed heart inflammation after they received the Pfizer coronavirus vaccine in the country.

Officials say around 9.76 million people in Japan had been given the Pfizer vaccine as of May 30.

They say seven people in the 20 to 69 age range developed myocarditis or pericarditis.

Six were men who displayed symptoms after receiving their second dose.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Chances are slim, but nevertheless
> Japan's health ministry says seven people have developed heart inflammation after they received the Pfizer coronavirus vaccine in the country.
> 
> Officials say around 9.76 million people in Japan had been given the Pfizer vaccine as of May 30.
> 
> They say seven people in the 20 to 69 age range developed myocarditis or pericarditis.
> 
> Six were men who displayed symptoms after receiving their second dose.


Those were only detected cases as well.


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> See, that is why I should have waited for the first dose.
> sask
> now I can only get the second dose after June 21 which would be 7 weeks apart (that is if I am able to book an appointment) vs 3 weeks manufacturer interval.
> I guess, wasted shot for authoritarian government political gains.
> Unless it’s enforced I won’t be getting the second dose.
> I would have if governments had provided appropriate organization of the process.


Science has shown that waiting is actually more effective. They only did the 3-week interval so they could perform their clinical trials faster.









Delaying a COVID vaccine’s second dose boosts immune response


Older people who waited 11–12 weeks for their second jab had higher peak antibody levels than did those who waited only 3 weeks.




www.nature.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> Science has shown that waiting is actually more effective. They only did the 3-week interval so they could perform their clinical trials faster.


Nevertheless in sask government now recommending to get second shot “according to manufacturer internal (3/4 week). 
Do you think government health officials haven’t read that paper? apparently they did because they have justified their previous decision by those “studies”, but now when everyone who wanted got their first dose, everything can go back to normal intervals.


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> Nevertheless in sask government now recommending to get second shot “according to manufacturer internal (3/4 week).
> Do you think government health officials haven’t read that paper? apparently they did because they have justified their previous decision by those “studies”, but now when everyone who wanted got their first dose, everything can go back to normal intervals.


They're trying to rush second doses because delta variant is rising, and single shot has shown to be quite ineffective against delta variant. Ideally, if you could prevent yourself from getting the virus in the interval, the longer interval is better. But if you might get the virus in the meantime, better to get that second shot sooner to raise your efficacy against delta.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> They're trying to rush second doses because delta variant is rising, and single shot has shown to be quite ineffective against delta variant. Ideally, if you could prevent yourself from getting the virus in the interval, the longer interval is better. But if you might get the virus in the meantime, better to get that second shot sooner to raise your efficacy against delta.


I have missed the 3 weeks Pfizer and 6 weeks CDC cut off time. I guess will have my chances with Indian variants.


----------



## MrMatt

I'm right in the middle, I had AZ, I can have AZ or mRNA for dose 2, I'm pretty low exposure risk.

I've decided to get my second AZ dose as soon as possible, and wait for boosters.

I don't know what will happen with variants/4th wave, but I think it's better to have both shots before a possible 4th wave, if it happens.


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> I have missed the 3 weeks Pfizer and 6 weeks CDC cut off time. I guess will have my chances with Indian variants.


You're just being illogical now. But you do you.


----------



## bgc_fan

So some good news. Canada is number one on citizens being at least partially vaccinated. It'll take some time for full vaccination, but given the increased supply, most will have their second shot by August... so more or less as per initial Federal timeline of September.









Canada tops world in vaccinated population as new COVID-19 cases fall below 1,000 - National | Globalnews.ca


The seven-day average for new cases now sits at 1,305, according to a Global News analysis of nationwide data -- the lowest average since Sept. 27, 2020.




globalnews.ca





Some oddities though, with Chile, Bahrain, Uruguay, Mongolia, Qatar, and Hungary between the UK and the US. Part of it can be explained by population size, but it does look as though even if the US started out strong with vaccinations, they are reaching their plateau.


----------



## andrewf

bgc_fan said:


> Some oddities though, with Chile, Bahrain, Uruguay, Mongolia, Qatar, and Hungary between the UK and the US. Part of it can be explained by population size, but it does look as though even if the US started out strong with vaccinations, they are reaching their plateau.


That can be laid at Trump's feet. He made vaccination political. Most political leaders would be quite public about receiving the vaccine, to demonstrate support and encourage others. Trump kept it secret...


----------



## sags

I got my first dose of Pfizer in April and am scheduled for 2nd dose in August.

I went to the website and there is no access for second doses, so it appears they are just focusing on first doses and leaving 2nd doses as scheduled.


----------



## bgc_fan

andrewf said:


> That can be laid at Trump's feet. He made vaccination political. Most political leaders would be quite public about receiving the vaccine, to demonstrate support and encourage others. Trump kept it secret...


It was a shame that a pandemic was actually politicized, particularly as there was some spill-over to Canada. I'm just glad that it looks like we're somewhat beyond that and we will potentially have a higher vaccination rate. The only concern that I have is that people think that things are going well and don't get the second dose.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> I got my first dose of Pfizer in April and am scheduled for 2nd dose in August.
> 
> I went to the website and there is no access for second doses, so it appears they are just focusing on first doses and leaving 2nd doses as scheduled.


There are! But Ontario booking webside is some kind of scam ....I spent 10 hours trying to book 2nd dose...sometimes you see available appoinments, but when you click to book - it's always gone ....I had about 200 clicks like this !

At the end I found and booked 2nd dose in some pop-up clinic in Brampton East North , 1 month before it was originaly schedules in UTM Mississauga


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> I got my first dose of Pfizer in April and am scheduled for 2nd dose in August.
> 
> I went to the website and there is no access for second doses, so it appears they are just focusing on first doses and leaving 2nd doses as scheduled.


The first thing the provincial booking system asks is whether it's a first or second dose.

You may not find any second dose appointments in your area the first time you access the software, but if you continue checking back in you'll find an appointment.

ltr


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> I got my first dose of Pfizer in April and am scheduled for 2nd dose in August.
> 
> I went to the website and there is no access for second doses, so it appears they are just focusing on first doses and leaving 2nd doses as scheduled.


Will you be considered fully vaccinated if you deviated from 3 weeks apart to 4 months required by manufacturer? where would be the cut off? Will the immunity be better if we wait 6 months, 9 months or 12 months between doses?


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Will you be considered fully vaccinated if you deviated from 3 weeks apart to 4 months required by manufacturer? where would be the cut off? Will the immunity be better if we wait 6 months, 9 months or 12 months between doses?


Yes of course you'd be fully vaccinated if you take the vaccine in accordance with the Health Canada approved schedule.

We don't have data on 6+ months yet, but I think that the data is currently suggesting that 12+ weeks might result in a stronger response.

I actually think it's silly that you're asking about 12 months between doses since we haven't invented time travel yet.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> Yes of course you'd be fully vaccinated if you take the vaccine in accordance with the Health Canada approved schedule.


Truly, for people who wants to ravel internationally , who gives a [email protected] what Health Canada approved !!!!

P.S. I remember when we cross border from Germany to Czech Republic and showed them Canadian passports , the border guy asked his buddy, "what the heck is Canada, can they cross thr borer w/o visa"., and other replies "Sure, those are hockey guys" LOL


----------



## andrewf

Despite much wailing and gnashing of teeth a month or six weeks ago after the US began showing better performance in new cases of COVID, Canada has just recently fallen below the US rate of new infections once again. Also might be worth noting that Canada recently overtook Israel/UK etc. in rate of >1 dose vaccination. It's looking promising for Canada to achieve a very high level of overall vaccination, and before the September timeline that was guided at the beginning of the year.


----------



## Beaver101

like_to_retire said:


> The first thing the provincial booking system asks is whether it's a first or second dose.
> 
> You may not find any second dose appointments in your area the first time you access the software, but if you continue checking back in you'll find an appointment.
> 
> ltr


 ... yep, the first one I found was in Hamilton, available up to June 14 (same day when portal was "universally" open at 8 am). Almost forgot to mention that was only after an hour "virtual" queue (aka wait). Okay, thought I try in the afternoon same day. Lucky me, message said "there's no appointments available" in your location selected (postal code). Nothing, nada, zilch. Okay, thought I try again the next day (yesterday)... maybe the portal ain't fully functional. Still same message. Okay, thought I try the afternoon of yesterday ... oops, now I get something .. how about St. Catherines this time? [I'm in Toronto]. Aah, how am I gonna get there?

Okay, let's try this morning ... wow, more selections ... in Barrie, Innisfil, and Timbuktu town in Ontario. 

And in the meantime, I see our mayor Tory announces every day "30K more vaccines" are coming to Toronto. Hello? Toronto has a population in the millions ... does this turkey know how to do math and yet is so good at jacking up property taxes. Which pays for this turkey and his cohorts' salaries. He really needs to talk with his boss and his boss' cohorts at Queen's Party on this. And not just about Opening Up the Patios deluding Torontonians taxpayers.


----------



## MrMatt

The system is busy, I'm glad millions are trying to book appointments.
Also the booking system hasn't been brought down by malicious actors yet, that's quite an accomplishment.

Really we're doing a good job with vaccination.
The hard part should be getting vaccines into arms, but so far we're still supply constrained.

We have enough people to jab the needles, we have enough people who want to get vaccines, this has been very successful.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> Really we're doing a good job with vaccination.


 14% of vaccinated people hardly a good job.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> 14% of vaccinated people hardly a good job.


We're putting the vaccine into people as fast as it arrives in the country. That's good.
Every jurisdiction in Canada is supply constrained, we're all doing well here.

We're leading the world in first doses, which is also good.
I know you disagree with the first dose ASAP strategy, and that's fine, but most adults have at least one dose, many of those is Pfizer, which is quite effective against Delta after just one dose.

I don't see what part we're doing badly.


----------



## gibor365

After 2 days playing with Ontario vaccine website...."click and non-available, click and already taken ", we were able to book for Jun 21


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> After 2 days playing with Ontario vaccine website...."click and non-available, click and already taken ", we were able to book for Jun 21


That's what happens when a few million people try to access the site at the same time. Victim of it's own success.


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> After 2 days playing with Ontario vaccine website...."click and non-available, click and already taken ", we were able to book for Jun 21


Local doctors were complaining that some of our allotment of vaccines is being redirected to the GTA, so maybe that is why we can't book a second shot.


----------



## sags

Ontario's briefing today said they are concentrating on Toronto. The one dose vaccination rate in TO is 75% and 20% of people are fully vaccinated.

They say they will continue to focus on "hot spots" in the Toronto area. It appears they are diverting vaccines to Toronto and everyone else will get less supply.

Some are saying it is all political with Ford facing an election next year and needing votes in the heavily populated Toronto area.

The numbers for vaccinations in Toronto are already higher than the rest of Ontario.


----------



## sags

The protection against hospitalization and death from the Delta virus is claimed to be 90% in a UK study..........but only after full vaccinations.

Less than full vaccination offers much lower protection against the Delta variant, which is much more transmissible.

In US states with high vaccination rates, the numbers of infections is falling. In states with low vaccination rates the numbers are increasing again.

Full vaccinations are the key, and the one shot plan doesn't appear to provide much protection.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Ontario's briefing today said they are concentrating on Toronto. The one dose vaccination rate in TO is 75% and 20% of people are fully vaccinated.
> 
> They say they will continue to focus on "hot spots" in the Toronto area. It appears they are diverting vaccines to Toronto and everyone else will get less supply.
> 
> Some are saying it is all political with Ford facing an election next year and needing votes in the heavily populated Toronto area.
> 
> The numbers for vaccinations in Toronto are already higher than the rest of Ontario.


And Toronto has the highest COVID rates in the province.
I'm probably the most anti-Toronto person here, but the logic of getting those idiots vaccinated so they don't keep overloading our hospital system makes sense.


----------



## sags

Ford has totally botched the vaccinations. Employees in retirement homes are waiting until August for their 2nd shot.

Hopefully the residents have both shots and are protected if an employee gets infected and spreads the virus around.

Ford is giving vaccines to street people, drug addicts, hookers, and gang bangers ahead of employees in retirement homes.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> Ford is giving vaccines to street people, drug addicts, hookers, and gang bangers ahead of employees in retirement homes.


Ford would give vaccinations to everyone if Trudeau had procured enough vaccines. Trudeaus fault I'm afraid.

ltr


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> Employees in retirement homes are waiting until August for their 2nd shot.


 Didn’t you know that the longer you wait between doses the better the protection. 
I have scheduled for the second shot in November 2021. Six months should do the trick.


----------



## sags

The PCs won't win any seats around here, so Ford is focusing on the crowd at Jane and Finch in Toronto.

Never mind the old folks Dougie. They made it this far without your help and they will continue on.


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> Didn’t you know that the longer you wait between doses the better the protection.
> I have scheduled for the second shot in November 2021. Six months should do the trick.


Yeah, this is kind of interesting. Earlier I was wondering about hurrying to get the second shot within two weeks.

But it's sounding like spacing them out is a benefit. Minimum 1 month for sure. But I'm not sure how much to space them out for optimal protection.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> After 2 days playing with Ontario vaccine website...."click and non-available, click and already taken ", we were able to book for Jun 21


Did you try calling? I booked my first appointment that way and it was astonishingly easy. Literally called, listened to a 3 minute re-recorded info dump and then was put through directly to an operator. Had my appointment confirmed in under 10 minutes. I had mentally prepared myself to be on hold for quite some time!


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> Didn’t you know that the longer you wait between doses the better the protection.
> I have scheduled for the second shot in November 2021. Six months should do the trick.


I feel like you're being irrationally contrary. 

A shorter interval gets you the benefit of the second dose sooner (and reduces the time you're at the higher level of risk of only 1 dose) but it could well be that 6 months is even better than 8 weeks. There is that tension between only having the protection of a single dose vs the diminishing returns to delaying the second for ultimate protection. Also consider that we are likely getting a booster late in the year or early next...


----------



## andrewf

like_to_retire said:


> Ford would give vaccinations to everyone if Trudeau had procured enough vaccines. Trudeaus fault I'm afraid.
> 
> ltr


I'm not really sure what you were expecting him to have done. We're in line with most other advanced countries in terms of how many vaccine we've received per capita.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

When 23-year-old Brandon Lavoie got his first COVID-19 vaccine on May 28, everything went like clockwork.

He waited 15 minutes in line, got the Pfizer vaccine, waited another 15 minutes to ensure he didn’t have an immediate allergic reaction and then went home.

“I felt perfectly normal,” he recalled. “I went to the gym (and) didn’t change anything in my day. (I) had a slight soreness in my arm, but that’s like any vaccine that I’ve gotten — flu or otherwise.”

It wasn’t until the following Monday — three days after he got the vaccine — that he started having what he thought initially were vaccine-related side effects. They began with a slight sore throat as he was driving to Regina for work, and progressed later in the morning to slight chest pain, headache and body aches.

“But then by the end of the day, I started getting more and more chest pain, so I decided to go to the ER in Regina,” he said. “They did an ECG (electrocardiogram) and found out there was something going on with my heart.”
Cathy says her son’s heart rate dropped significantly and he couldn’t speak. He was taken to the Cardiac Surveillance Unit and given an aspirin and a nitroglycerin pill to put under his tongue. He spent two nights in the hospital before he was able to go home. He’s now off work for at least a month and has to take it easy.









SHA probing possible link between Pfizer shot and Saskatoon man’s heart issues


When 23-year-old Brandon Lavoie got his first COVID-19 vaccine on May 28, everything went like clockwork. He w...




www.ckom.com





with more news like this I starting to debate whether I should get the second shot at all.
as I said my old grandparents had covid, but my uncle, and his wife and my cousin were visit ing them. And none of them had any severe symptoms, (never mind myocarditis). 
Risk from covid is definitely overblown. Risk from vaccines is underrated. Political games.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Did you try calling? I booked my first appointment that way and it was astonishingly easy. Literally called, listened to a 3 minute re-recorded info dump and then was put through directly to an operator. Had my appointment confirmed in under 10 minutes. I had mentally prepared myself to be on hold for quite some time!


I was trying to call THP (where I got 1st shot for 3 days)...Answering machine just tells you that queue is full and disconnects.... I called 25-30 time with same result (no result  ). Today by fluke (thanks to our daughter) we were able to book Jun 21, so it's fine....4 more days


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Ford is giving vaccines to street people, drug addicts, hookers, and gang bangers ahead of employees in retirement homes.


Yes, because those are the people most likely to catch and spread COVID19 and fill up the hospital beds.

I'm sorry, but sitting here at home alone in my office, I'm not getting COVID19, and I'm not spreading COVID19.
As the taxpayign person funding all this I want my shot, but I understand stopping the spread elsewhere will have a greater impact.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Local doctors were complaining that some of our allotment of vaccines is being redirected to the GTA, so maybe that is why we can't book a second shot.


 ... tried the portal again this morning.

Lo and behold, they added the question of "what public health (TO or does it include the GTA?) do you use (aka your location or not sure why they want a postal code repeat, duh)!" I guess this is called "an IT update". 

And guess what - the site is even better this morning with the message "unable to book an appoint, call support". Support who? IT support or do you need to call to book or what? 

Yesterday, at least I got a list from Barrie, Innisfil, Chatnam, St. Catherines (still!), or anywhere else in Ontario (no London though) but TO.

I'm still waiting for the turkeys over at TO;s cityhall to talk to the other turkeys over at Queen's Park who may then need to talk to the roosters up at Ottawa.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> I'm not really sure what you were expecting him to have done. We're in line with most other advanced countries in terms of how many vaccine we've received per capita.


 .. and I'm wondering about ours (aka Canada's) vaccine "donations" to the poorer countries. Not just the vaccines themselves, but the cash part. While the buck stops with Trudeau but the performance of his Procurement Office has been dismal ... utterly dismal SINCE from the start of last year.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Yes, because those are the people most likely to catch and spread COVID19 and fill up the hospital beds.
> 
> I'm sorry, but sitting here at home alone in my office, I'm not getting COVID19, and I'm not spreading COVID19.
> As the taxpayign person funding all this I want my shot, but I understand stopping the spread elsewhere will have a greater impact.


 ... I'm willing to wait for my shot (did that with the first) so that essential workers (frontline, healthcare, etc and even homeless and hookers/whatever) get theirs so as to limit the spread. But I'm not willing to wait now that portion of the population got their first shot and the government is telling us that we can move up on the 2nd shot. 

Simple question: do they have enough vaccines for the 2nd shot or not when they made that update announcement? I hate liars aka schemers too.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> Simple question: do they have enough vaccines for the 2nd shot or not when they made that update announcement? I hate liars aka schemers too.


No, they just have delivery plans from the suppliers.
They're injecting as fast as they.

Most of the provinces have been operating on less than a weeks supply of vaccine since this started. 
Look back lots of users complained that we hadn't used all of our supply, when we had only injected 90% of the delivered vaccine, that 10% was like a million doses, which doesn't even last the week.

Yes the government is full of incompetent bozos running around making crappy decisions.
I think we should shrink government as much as possible, it's ridiculous that they take half our money to waste.

That being said, we're pretty lucky, our incompetent bozos are better than what most of the world has.
Look at our competition re: covid








Boris Johnson considered being injected with COVID-19 on live TV: ex-adviser - National | Globalnews.ca


Boris Johnson thought COVID-19 was a scare story and even considered getting injected with coronavirus on live television to show it was benign, his former chief adviser said.




globalnews.ca





Maybe the US bozos are more to your liking?
The Trump or Biden administration make the Trudeau government look competent. I say that as someone who has an extremely low regard for Trudeau (except his political acumen)


----------



## sags

If you got a first shot of Pfizer.........don't expect a second dose of it. It is more likely you will get Moderna as a second shot.









Got a first dose of Pfizer? Don't bank on getting a second in London


Be prepared to mix and match vaccine brands if you’re looking for a fast-tracked second dose, London’s deputy public health official says.




lfpress.com





They are expecting a shipment of 7 million Moderna doses and people don't want it, so they are forcing it on people so it doesn't go to waste.

They opened up the age to 17 and over and are holding back the Pfizer for the young people who can't take AZ or Moderana.

The online portal is a mess and I think I will end up getting my second shot of Moderna from my doctor or a pharmacy.

Waiting until August only to learn they don't have Pfizer anyways, doesn't make sense to me.

They keep opening up new age groups before they can cover the existing age groups or give second shots.

People go to the site at 8 am. and refresh their browser for hours to get access. It has become a free for all now.


----------



## sags

My thought on this mess is that a lot of people will get fed up and skip the second dose altogether.

Already people are walking out of the clinic refusing the Moderna vaccine as second shot. They don't want to mix the vaccines.

Some people say they have appointments booked but got a shot somewhere else and can't cancel their original appointments, so they just won't show up.

What a mess.


----------



## bgc_fan

Beaver101 said:


> .. and I'm wondering about ours (aka Canada's) vaccine "donations" to the poorer countries. Not just the vaccines themselves, but the cash part. While the buck stops with Trudeau but the performance of his Procurement Office has been dismal ... utterly dismal SINCE from the start of last year.


We had secured 300M doses last year. I imagine that meant we had already committed cash to purchase them. The obvious caveat is that not all the doses were going to pan out, or be readily available. By the time most of the other ones (Novovax, Medicago, etc.) get approved and going, we'll probably not need them. My understanding is that the intent was always to donate the "surplus" vaccines that we had secured.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> Some people say they have appointments booked but got a shot somewhere else and can't cancel their original appointments, so they just won't show up.


Why can't they just go on-line and cancel them?

ltr


----------



## sags

like_to_retire said:


> Why can't they just go on-line and cancel them?
> 
> ltr


They say the website won't accept cancellations.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> No, they just have delivery plans from the suppliers.
> They're injecting as fast as they.
> 
> Most of the provinces have been operating on less than a weeks supply of vaccine since this started.
> Look back lots of users complained that we hadn't used all of our supply, when we had only injected 90% of the delivered vaccine, that 10% was like a million doses, which doesn't even last the week.
> 
> Yes the government is full of incompetent bozos running around making crappy decisions.
> I think we should shrink government as much as possible, it's ridiculous that they take half our money to waste.
> 
> That being said, we're pretty lucky, our incompetent bozos are better than what most of the world has.
> Look at our competition re: covid
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boris Johnson considered being injected with COVID-19 on live TV: ex-adviser - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Boris Johnson thought COVID-19 was a scare story and even considered getting injected with coronavirus on live television to show it was benign, his former chief adviser said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the US bozos are more to your liking?
> The Trump or Biden administration make the Trudeau government look competent. I say that as someone who has an extremely low regard for Trudeau (except his political acumen)


 ... I agree with Biden's "America First" which you can't blame him for so I wouldn't call him a bozo. As for the Dump, he's history with the "bozo" descript a grade too rich for him. 

Not sure why you would want to continuously compare Canada's vaccination program with the USA when you're a Canadian "taxpayer" who thinks vaccinations for the homeless, hookers and the downtroddens should be put at the end of the list. Kinda talking from both sides of your mouth sounding to be so grateful for the "still bumbling" Canadian vaccination program. Sorry no more excuses for the dismal performance over at Ottawa.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... I agree with Biden's "America First" which you can't blame him for so I wouldn't call him a bozo. As for the Dump, he's history with the "bozo" descript a grade too rich for him.
> 
> Not sure why you would want to continuously compare Canada's vaccination program with the USA when you're a Canadian "taxpayer" who thinks vaccinations for the homeless, hookers and the downtroddens should be put at the end of the list. Kinda talking from both sides of your mouth sounding to ever grateful for the "still bumbling" Canadian vaccination program. Sorry no more excuses for the dismal performance over at Ottawa.


"America First" was Trumps slogan, didn't realize Biden was copying that as well.

It isn't talking out of both sides of my mouth, it's acknowledging how I feel, and what makes "sense"

I feel that as the person who's actually paying for all this stuff, I should get first, or *AT LEAST *equal access. The fact that I'm getting second rate access to stuff I pay for is unfair. I don't like this.

However, as a public health issue, I can see how vaccinating vulnerable populations first is a good idea, and eventually in a roundabout way makes things better for me. So intellectually I agree it's likely the correct path.

So yeah, the fundamentally and emotionally unfair solution is likely the best solution. I do acknowledge and understand there are more than one side to most issues, and I see them in my mind. I thought most people who were honest with themselves could see multiple factors at play, are you suggesting that most people see just their one view and are blind to every other perspective?

As far as Ottawas dismal performance, yes, I'm very vocal here. 
however while I do think that Trudeau is uniquely inept as a Canadian PM, vaccine supply is really not under his control


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... I agree with Biden's "America First" which you can't blame him for so I wouldn't call him a bozo.


I consider Biden a bozo because he's a senile old man who's bumbling around and can barely string together a coherent statement.

There are other terms, but he's really no different than the other barely competent world leaders.


----------



## sags

They should have concentrated on fully vaccinating people.

First they said partial vaccination would provide sufficient protection. Now they are saying it won't.

People don't trust the Ontario government anymore.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> I consider Biden a bozo because he's a senile old man who's bumbling around and can barely string together a coherent statement.


He was elected by American bankers for this very reason.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> They should have concentrated on fully vaccinating people.
> 
> First they said partial vaccination would provide sufficient protection. Now they are saying it won't.
> 
> People don't trust the Ontario government anymore.


For the initial variant partial vaccination helped a lot.
The delta variant it helps less, but Pfizer is still very effective, see macleans link I posted earlier.

Everyone agrees that full vaccinations would be great, but we don't have enough.


----------



## james4beach

What is your opinion on air travel, for people who are partially vaccinated?

I haven't seen my parents for over a year. They're in their 70s and obviously I was staying away from them. Within a few weeks, they will have their second vaccination and will be fully vaccinated (Pfizer in their case).

However, I only have one shot and it will be a while before I get my second. I wonder if it's safe to fly to visit my parents soon, while I only have one shot?

My concern is picking up the delta variant along the way, and then infecting my parents with it. Having just one shot, I have minimal protection against delta.


----------



## Beaver101

^ How urgent do you need to see your parents?

If you can wait abit longer, I think it would be "most" safest if you got your 2nd shot. If not, then next safest is wait a couple of weeks (?) when your parents 2nd shot is settled (ie. they're fully innoculated) and then go visit them. But if this timing is close to your 2nd shot, and if you can wait still abit longer, then finish your 2nd shot and then off you go.

Whenever you fly, still wear a mask on the plane,wash your hands and stay at least 6 feet from your fellow passengers. The pandemic ain't over until officially "declared" over. Pretend you needed to visit the doctor/dentist these days ... protocols to follow. My 2 cents.

Hhere was some guidance published for Father's Day (I posted in the Coronavirus thread): Remember, no wet kisses for grandpa (dad too I think)!
Vaccines, low COVID case counts increase Father's Day hope, but risk is still there


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> However, I only have one shot and it will be a while before I get my second.


Why is that?

ltr


----------



## james4beach

like_to_retire said:


> Why is that?


The current estimate is that I would get my second shot at around 8 weeks, so roughly July 23. After a shot, it takes about 3 weeks for the immune response to kick in (as well as to get past the danger period for side effects and reactions) so that would mean I would be ready to travel roughly around August 13.

So if I want to wait for my second shot, I would have to travel after August 13. That's still an OK option.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

People vaccinated with both shots Pfizer can’t transmit Indian variant?
Fully vaccinated people are still wearing muzzles.


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> The current estimate is that I would get my second shot at around 8 weeks, so roughly July 23. After a shot, it takes about 3 weeks for the immune response to kick in (as well as to get past the danger period for side effects and reactions) so that would mean I would be ready to travel roughly around August 13.
> 
> So if I want to wait for my second shot, I would have to travel after August 13. That's still an OK option.


With the amount of vaccines that are available I figure the wait for the second shot will be shortened by a substantial number of weeks.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> For the initial variant partial vaccination helped a lot.
> The* delta variant* it helps less, but Pfizer is still very effective, see macleans link I posted earlier.
> 
> Everyone agrees that full vaccinations would be great, but we don't have enough.


What is it *delta variant?! is it political correct definition for Indian?!*


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> What is it *delta variant?! is it political correct definition for Indian?!*


Yes delta variant is the politically correct term for Indian variant of the Wuhan/corona virus


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Yes delta variant is the politically correct term for Indian variant of the Wuhan/corona virus


Ha ha  It's so extremely stupid! When we had UK variant, SA variant, Brazilian variant ...everything was fine! But when we got Indian variant of Wuhan Flu ,,,,it has been decided to rename all variants to Greek alphabet .... LOL
btw, why Greek?!  to be more politically correct it should be Arabic one LOL

P.S. Just found out .... they are exactly the same
*Both Kappa, also known as B.1.617.1, and Delta, also called B.1.617.2, are considered subtypes of what's been referred to as the Indian variant — B.1.617. The numeric identifiers may be a bit more familiar to you, because they have been around for a bit longer. *

To tell the truth, numeric variant is not more familiar to me  So, my understanginf that we have Indian variant 1 and 2 .... and looks like we gonna run out soon from all letters of Greek alphabet 





__





The Greek Alphabet






web.mit.edu





I'm waiting for NU variant LOL


----------



## hboy54

AZ was first shot a few days over 8 weeks ago. My wife called Shopper's Drug Mart in the city we are currently visiting and got us booked for Pfizer tomorrow. I find this curious. I would have thought that locals would have booked all near term appointments.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Here in Saskatchewan, there’s plenty of places offering Moderna. But the thing is that most people got Pfizer, because it was the only offer some time ago. Now people don’t want to get the second shot because it’s different brand. Not many are willing to mix. 
Hopefully by November when I will be getting my second dose everything gots sorted out.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> With the amount of vaccines that are available I figure the wait for the second shot will be shortened by a substantial number of weeks.


Thanks, that's a good point.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> People vaccinated with both shots Pfizer can’t transmit Indian variant?
> Fully vaccinated people are still wearing muzzles.


 ... no to your first question as it doesn't mean that. It means they can still transmit any variant, just that the Indian one is the predominant now.

And that explanation to your question also confirms that fully vaccinated people still wear muzzles. Muzzles are still required on public transit, stores, doctor/healthcare facilities, etc. here in Toronto. Not sure where you are in Canada. Okay, I see you're in Saskatchewan. How's the infection rate going over there? Last I read (a few days ago), there're still outbreaks.

Now if you're in the USA, Texas for example, it's muzzle-free by law yet common-sensed Texans still wear muzzles. They would rather not catch someone else's (especially the unvaccinated ones) on whatever Covid-version which is still floating around.

Added: For vaccine-deniers, how about this? In lieu of the vaccine, a double lung transplant PROVIDED you're super-duper-lucky to get one.
Texas man who declined COVID-19 vaccine speaks out after undergoing double lung transplant


----------



## Plugging Along

hboy54 said:


> AZ was first shot a few days over 8 weeks ago. My wife called Shopper's Drug Mart in the city we are currently visiting and got us booked for Pfizer tomorrow. I find this curious. I would have thought that locals would have booked all near term appointments.


It's a little luck of the draw. In my province, since all bookings are not centralized (there is the main provincial health services, and the multitude of systems for pharmacies), there are people that have multiple appt booked and many will cancel (hopefully) that will open up a spot. Plus, pharmacies update their bookings based on when they confirmed supplies. I found I booked one date over a month out, and then got a call from another place we were waitlisted for this weekend because they getting extra doses. 

it pays to keep checking.


----------



## MrMatt

hboy54 said:


> AZ was first shot a few days over 8 weeks ago. My wife called Shopper's Drug Mart in the city we are currently visiting and got us booked for Pfizer tomorrow. I find this curious. I would have thought that locals would have booked all near term appointments.


Mine is in 2 weeks, but I just booked today.


----------



## sags

I finally got a re-booking through the portal. It was moved up from August 8 to June 25.

There is no guarantee on which vaccine you get. It will be either Pfizer or Moderna.

I would prefer Pfizer but I will take my chances. You only die once............from this, that, or the other thing.


----------



## sags

A fully vaccinated 90 year old passed away from COVID in an Ontario nursing home. The home has an outbreak among vaccinated staff and residents.

Doctors and experts now acknowledge the virus is spread through airborne particles. People were infected through ventilation systems.

One expert said he was embarrassed that he and other experts missed the evidence from cruise ships where people were quarantined in their rooms and still catching the virus. It was an early indicator and lives were lost in nursing homes, restaurants and other places with closed ventilation systems.

Traveling in a sealed aircraft or cruise ship doesn't sound like a great idea right now, especially with the highly infectious Delta virus spreading rapidly.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> A fully vaccinated 90 year old passed away from COVID in an Ontario nursing home. The home has an outbreak among vaccinated staff and residents.
> 
> Doctors and experts now acknowledge the virus is spread through airborne particles. People were infected through ventilation systems.


That's distressing, but no vaccine completely stops any infection. It just reduces the probabilities.

Do we know, across Canada or US (or maybe Israel), how many fully vaccinated people have died?


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> A fully vaccinated 90 year old passed away from COVID in an Ontario nursing home. The home has an outbreak among vaccinated staff and residents.
> 
> Doctors and experts now acknowledge the virus is spread through airborne particles. People were infected through ventilation systems.
> 
> One expert said he was embarrassed that he and other experts missed the evidence from cruise ships where people were quarantined in their rooms and still catching the virus. It was an early indicator and lives were lost in nursing homes, restaurants and other places with closed ventilation systems.
> 
> Traveling in a sealed aircraft or cruise ship doesn't sound like a great idea right now, especially with the highly infectious Delta virus spreading rapidly.


Care to source any of this?

What kind of expert doesn't know that vaccines don't stop all cases.
I don't think that expert exists.


----------



## sags

Sure......because it was so difficult to find since you broke your Google......lol



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/fully-vaccinated-woman-died-covid-19-waterloo-region-1.6072972





https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-aerosol-transmission-ontario-1.6071665


----------



## :) lonewolf

People that received AstraZeneca shots were banned from Bruce Springsteen concert. The US does not view AstraZeneca as being approved. Those that received jabs for travel not only are being told not to travel due to blood clots but also not all kill shots are being approved by all countries for travel.


----------



## gibor365

My and our daughter 2nd shot Pfizer was scheduled on Monday, just now I got email saying that there are no Pfizer in Peel because of delay (as usual )
_There is currently an Ontario-wide shipment delay of the Pfizer (mRNA) vaccine. This means there will be some changes at our Peel Public Health vaccine clinics as of June 21. Adults 18 years or older who have appointments at our clinics this week will be offered the Moderna (mRNA) vaccine. We understand this news may be unexpected, but we encourage you to keep your vaccine appointment as mixing COVID-19 mRNA vaccines is an approved practice in Canada. Also, the Ontario government has not yet confirmed when more Pfizer will be available in Peel._


"_approved practice in Canada"?! - _give us a break! Don't trust politically motivated NACI at all! We're skipping 2nd dose until Pfizer won't be available.... Enough experiment on people....we are not lab-rats!

In any case we missed required interval between vaccine and our dictator trudeau is not lifting extremely dangerous hotel-quarantine


----------



## zinfit

Airplanes constantly change the air and use filters system equal to surgical standards. I don't get concerned with the vaccinated person who died after being fully vaccinated. She was 90 years of age and I would be surprised if she didn't have other health issues.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Britain is talking about boosters in fall. What’s the point of getting the second dose now and (third) dose in fall? Skip your second shot. Wait till fall and get your booster. 
*Covid vaccine: We need answers on autumn booster plan, say health leaders








Covid vaccine: We need answers on autumn booster plan, say health leaders


The government has already promised a Covid booster rollout but it is yet to set out how it will work.



www.bbc.com




*


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Saskatchewan*Province will lift all public health restrictions on July 11, premier says in COVID-19 update







*


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Saskatchewan*Province will lift all public health restrictions on July 11, premier says in COVID-19 update
> View attachment 21799
> *


Amazing! And in our corrupted Ontario , in the best case we are moving to Phase 2 ....practically , lockdown stays....indefinitely


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Maharashtra reports 20 Delta+ Covid variant cases: Officials*

The Delta-plus, formed by mutation in the Delta (B.1.617.2) variant, is currently a “variant of interest”, and hasn’t been classified as a “variant of concern” by the Union health ministry yet.


----------



## gibor365

*Canada says COVID-19 vaccine doses are 'interchangeable,' encouraging mix-and-match vaccines while the CDC still stands firmly against it.*









Canada says COVID-19 vaccine doses are 'interchangeable,' encouraging mix-and-match vaccines while the CDC still stands firmly against it


Current CDC guidance currently recommends delaying the second dose of COVID-19 vaccine rather than mixing shots.




www.businessinsider.com





Sure, Canada continue "great experiment" on Canadians, first they extended interval between 1st and nd doses from 3-4 to 16 weeks and now they pushing us to mix vaccines , while CDC is firmly against it!
Who trusts clowns from Health Canada and NACI are welcome to be lab rats! 

P.S. By the way , still no word regarding 2nd dose from "our beloved leaders", Trudeau, Ford, Elliot, Hajdu and others, who pretended they got 1st AZ shot ....


----------



## gibor365

This Saturday we attended big Russian-Ukrainian party in Thornhill, out of about 50 people, barely 10 (include us ) got their vaccine.... Other don't trust them.
No wonder that % of vaccinated people in Russia is so low


----------



## Beaver101

^^^ Somebody needs to take a rabid vaccine.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

I think we all need to be asking more questions about this whole process. Starting with why are they not disclosing the data around these vaccines to us, and why are those who dare to ask questions being censored.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

This happened on Parliament Hill a week ago, and all large and small mainstream media sources did their best to make sure we didn't know about it.


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> I think we all need to be asking more questions about this whole process. Starting with why are they not disclosing the data around these vaccines to us, and why are those who dare to ask questions being censored.


Answered. In other words, nada.








Coronavirus disease-19 and fertility: viral host entry protein expression in male and female reproductive tissues


To identify cell types in the male and female reproductive systems at risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection because of the expression of host genes and proteins used by the virus for cell entry.Descriptive analysis of transcriptomic and proteomic data.Academic ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





Edit: I see they're talking about the lipid nanoparticles, not the spike protein. Nice useless graph though. The Y axis has a number that is meaningless without a unit scale. For example, the injection amount of Pfizer is 0.3 mL. https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/do... contains,and diluted prior to administration.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

bgc_fan said:


> Answered. In other words, nada.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus disease-19 and fertility: viral host entry protein expression in male and female reproductive tissues
> 
> 
> To identify cell types in the male and female reproductive systems at risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection because of the expression of host genes and proteins used by the virus for cell entry.Descriptive analysis of transcriptomic and proteomic data.Academic ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: I see they're talking about the lipid nanoparticles, not the spike protein. Nice useless graph though. The Y axis has a number that is meaningless without a unit scale. For example, the injection amount of Pfizer is 0.3 mL. https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download#:~:text=For intramuscular injection only.&text=•-,The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine Multiple Dose Vial contains,and diluted prior to administration.


The study you linked is on the contracting sarscov2, not getting vaccines. Regardless, it also stated its findings aren't definitive. 

The video is discussing what they are finding with the vaccines and the unknown long term implications of it.


----------



## sags

I wonder how many of them are vaccinated.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Fact Check-COVID-19 vaccines are not ‘cytotoxic’








Fact Check-COVID-19 vaccines are not ‘cytotoxic’


Posts are sharing the false statement that the spike protein in COVID-19 vaccines is cytotoxic, suggesting that it kills or damages cells. There is no evidence to support this.




www.reuters.com




*


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> The study you linked is on the contracting sarscov2, not getting vaccines. Regardless, it also stated its findings aren't definitive.
> 
> The video is discussing what they are finding with the vaccines and the unknown long term implications of it.


The study was talking about the possible impact the virus infecting and producing spike proteins in the somatic cells. Of which case there is no issue, either with the spike proteins or infection.

So think about what the vaccine is: it's an mRNA encased in a lipid nanoparticle. The mRNA gets read by a cell and produces spike proteins which gets released and the immune system kicks in. The injection site is in the deltoid, which means the mRNA is absorbed into the muscle cells and unlikely to travel far.

The video discusses nothing of importance and shows a complete lack of understanding of the process. Like I said, they are speaking off of a nonsensical graph. Their premise is that the lipid nanoparticle is an surrogate for the spike proteins. WRONG. 
1. The nanoparticles deliver the mRNA, not the spike proteins. So right away they're talking nonsense. 
2. Lipid nanoparticles used for the vaccine have been used for other drug delivery systems with few problems. Also, to deliver the mRNA payload, the lipid will get absorbed into the cellular lipid bilayer. That's how cells absorb the vaccine payload.
3. The graph has no scale, so it's meaningless. There are numbers but no units of measure. Maybe it's implied that the numbers are mL, but as I've stated before, the total injection volume is 0.3 mL, much less than the 13 that they have on the scale, if that's what they mean.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> I wonder how many of them are vaccinated.


Yeah, and I wonder how many of us that got the shot will wonder in the future, where those leukaemias and lymphomas are coming from.
Thank you governments for experimenting on us.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

sags said:


> I wonder how many of them are vaccinated.


In the first video? Both Dr Malone (who invented mrna vaccines, safe to say his opinion is worth listening too) and Steve have had the Moderna vaccine. They both claim to regret getting them now having more data on them and won't be advising their families to get vaccinated.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

bgc_fan said:


> The study was talking about the possible impact the virus infecting and producing spike proteins in the somatic cells. Of which case there is no issue, either with the spike proteins or infection.
> 
> So think about what the vaccine is: it's an mRNA encased in a lipid nanoparticle. The mRNA gets read by a cell and produces spike proteins which gets released and the immune system kicks in. The injection site is in the deltoid, which means the mRNA is absorbed into the muscle cells and unlikely to travel far.
> 
> The video discusses nothing of importance and shows a complete lack of understanding of the process. Like I said, they are speaking off of a nonsensical graph. Their premise is that the lipid nanoparticle is an surrogate for the spike proteins. WRONG.
> 1. The nanoparticles deliver the mRNA, not the spike proteins. So right away they're talking nonsense.
> 2. Lipid nanoparticles used for the vaccine have been used for other drug delivery systems with few problems. Also, to deliver the mRNA payload, the lipid will get absorbed into the cellular lipid bilayer. That's how cells absorb the vaccine payload.
> 3. The graph has no scale, so it's meaningless. There are numbers but no units of measure. Maybe it's implied that the numbers are mL, but as I've stated before, the total injection volume is 0.3 mL, much less than the 13 that they have on the scale, if that's what they mean.


The graph, regardless of the missing scale units shows that the vaccine is doing something not seen in previous vaccine technologies and is cause for concern. The specific volume of measure your looking for doesn't negate this. I think its safe to say the man who invented mrna vaccines is not talking non-sense and has a very good understanding of the process.


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> The graph, regardless of the missing scale units shows that the vaccine is doing something not seen in previous vaccine technologies and is cause for concern. The specific volume of measure your looking for doesn't negate this. I think its safe to say the man who invented mrna vaccines is not talking non-sense and has a very good understanding of the process.


Here's the thing. That scale is meaningless because you're saying it does "something". What is the something that is being measured?
Which man invented the mRNA vaccine? It was a Hungarian woman who did the research: Katalin Karikó. I don't see her in the video.

No surprise the video has been removed.


----------



## Spudd

Fact checks say that video is wrong. 









PolitiFact - No sign that the COVID-19 vaccines’ spike protein is toxic or ‘cytotoxic’


The headline on a YouTube video and a person who speaks in it make a troubling claim about the way the COVID-19 vaccines




www.politifact.com












Fact Check-COVID-19 vaccines are not ‘cytotoxic’


Posts are sharing the false statement that the spike protein in COVID-19 vaccines is cytotoxic, suggesting that it kills or damages cells. There is no evidence to support this.




www.reuters.com





Secondly, the whole "dark conspiracy" element here is ridiculous. 



5Lgreenback said:


> Starting with why are they not disclosing the data around these vaccines to us, and why are those who dare to ask questions being censored.


They are disclosing tons of data around these vaccines. It is known and was well-publicized that the AZ vaccine causes blood clots in some people (mainly younger women). They then modified the population that were recommended to receive the AZ vaccine. Similarly, they found some minor incidence of heart problems in young men after the Pfizer vaccine and this was also in the news.

Those who "dare to ask questions" such as Weinstein are clearly not being censored, since that video is still freely available on YouTube. 

The "censorship" you are speaking about is the media not picking up on stories from crackpots like these, and instead only reporting on stories from reputable scientists and scientific groups. Personally, I have no problem with that. I don't want every crackpot theory widely reported in the media. Do you?


----------



## sags

So this is what Dr. Malone posted on his Twitter feed a few hours ago.

_'Once again I feel it necessary to make a clear and unambiguous statement. 

*The data strongly indicate that the experimental genetic vaccines have saved lives. Many lives*.

But it is also clear that there are some risks associated with these vaccines."_

It appears Dr. Malone has discovered that he is being used be the anti-vaxxers.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Fact Check-COVID-19 vaccines are not ‘cytotoxic’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact Check-COVID-19 vaccines are not ‘cytotoxic’
> 
> 
> Posts are sharing the false statement that the spike protein in COVID-19 vaccines is cytotoxic, suggesting that it kills or damages cells. There is no evidence to support this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


These fact checked entities have proven they are the ones who actually need to be fact checked. Many experts disagree with the above "fact check'"


sags said:


> So this is what Dr. Malone posted on his Twitter feed a few hours ago.
> 
> _'Once again I feel it necessary to make a clear and unambiguous statement.
> 
> *The data strongly indicate that the experimental genetic vaccines have saved lives. Many lives*.
> 
> But it is also clear that there are some risks associated with these vaccines."_
> 
> It appears Dr. Malone has discovered that he is being used be the anti-vaxxers.


Yes, his twitter feed has many good/ interesting posts. Including that the spike proteins are in fact cytotoxic. 

The fact check entities have being proven to be a joke, it is them that indeed need to be fact checked.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> Fact checks say that video is wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PolitiFact - No sign that the COVID-19 vaccines’ spike protein is toxic or ‘cytotoxic’
> 
> 
> The headline on a YouTube video and a person who speaks in it make a troubling claim about the way the COVID-19 vaccines
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politifact.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact Check-COVID-19 vaccines are not ‘cytotoxic’
> 
> 
> Posts are sharing the false statement that the spike protein in COVID-19 vaccines is cytotoxic, suggesting that it kills or damages cells. There is no evidence to support this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly, the whole "dark conspiracy" element here is ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> They are disclosing tons of data around these vaccines. It is known and was well-publicized that the AZ vaccine causes blood clots in some people (mainly younger women). They then modified the population that were recommended to receive the AZ vaccine. Similarly, they found some minor incidence of heart problems in young men after the Pfizer vaccine and this was also in the news.
> 
> Those who "dare to ask questions" such as Weinstein are clearly not being censored, since that video is still freely available on YouTube.
> 
> The "censorship" you are speaking about is the media not picking up on stories from crackpots like these, and instead only reporting on stories from reputable scientists and scientific groups. Personally, I have no problem with that. I don't want every crackpot theory widely reported in the media. Do you?











Home - FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance


Critical care physicians dedicated to researching and developing protocols to prevent and treat COVID-19 at all stages of disease.




covid19criticalcare.com





Feel free to look into this group of whistle blowing doctors from around the world on Ivermectin. It shouldn't take long to realize that there is real forces at play hear trying to control the narrative. On this issue in particular censorship has caused untold suffering and hardship. 









Ivermectin for COVID-19: real-time analysis of all 172 studies


Ivermectin for COVID-19: real-time analysis of all 172 studies




c19ivermectin.com





I don't want to hear every crackpot theory either, but I also don't want to bury my head in the sand. 

Telling patients with covid to go home and not come back until your lips are blue and on deaths door is a crime, when the regulatory bodies know there are very effective treatments out there. Canada doesn't even recommend simple vitamin D or Zinc, which have shown benefits. We do recommend remdesivir, which has very little evidence of its effectiveness and very expensive.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

bgc_fan said:


> Here's the thing. That scale is meaningless because you're saying it does "something". What is the something that is being measured?
> Which man invented the mRNA vaccine? It was a Hungarian woman who did the research: Katalin Karikó. I don't see her in the video.
> 
> No surprise the video has been removed.


Within the past year our trust worthy media have been reporting the above (katalin) is the hero behind mrna. Apparently this is not the case and theres patents from 1989, medical journals and other evidence that show it is in fact Dr. Malone. 🧐


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> Within the past year our trust worthy media have been reporting the above (katalin) is the hero behind mrna. Apparently this is not the case and theres patents from 1989, medical journals and other evidence that show it is in fact Dr. Malone. 🧐


Nope. Dr. Malone did no such thing. He may have shown that you can deliver an mRNA strand into a cell, but never advanced any more than that. It's like saying that Karl Benz developed the Tesla, where he developed the first modern car.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

It sounds like Dr. Malone and some of his colleagues would dispute that. Ultimately its not worth discussing as its fair to say he's a well respected expert in this field. Dr. Malone and many other experts from his field as well as other specialties are raising alarm flags around dishonest information in regards to these vaccines, and censorship.

"_What happens to confidence in public health and USG if ivermectin turns out to be safe and effective for COVID, and the genetic vaccines turn out to have signficant safety issues? This looks like a very plausible scenario from where I sit."_

"_The SARS-CoV-2 spike protein is cytotoxic. That is a fact. Who says so? Multiple peer reviewed references. The Salk Institute. It is the responsibility of the vaccine developers to demonstrate that their expressed version is not toxic. Show us." The novel coronavirus’ spike protein plays additional key role in illness - Salk Institute for Biological Studies_

In the end I believe Ivermectin is the smoking gun, and has exposed corruption in multiple layers of government and regulatory bodies. Not to mention MSM.


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> It sounds like Dr. Malone and some of his colleagues would dispute that. Ultimately its not worth discussing as its fair to say he's a well respected expert in this field. Dr. Malone and many other experts from his field as well as other specialties are raising alarm flags around dishonest information in regards to these vaccines, and censorship.
> 
> "_What happens to confidence in public health and USG if ivermectin turns out to be safe and effective for COVID, and the genetic vaccines turn out to have signficant safety issues? This looks like a very plausible scenario from where I sit."_
> 
> "_The SARS-CoV-2 spike protein is cytotoxic. That is a fact. Who says so? Multiple peer reviewed references. The Salk Institute. It is the responsibility of the vaccine developers to demonstrate that their expressed version is not toxic. Show us." The novel coronavirus’ spike protein plays additional key role in illness - Salk Institute for Biological Studies_
> 
> In the end I believe Ivermectin is the smoking gun, and has exposed corruption in multiple layers of government and regulatory bodies. Not to mention MSM.


Regardless of him thinking that he's the inventor of the mRNA vaccine. The whole premise in the video is wrong (lipid monoparticles being a surrogate for spike proteins). He shows some garbage graph as support. You can't just handwave the fact that it's a garbage graph and still accept that "bad things happen". You only have to use logic, and you don't even need to have a scientific background: you get injected with 0.3mL of vaccine, how does that translate into 13mL of lipid monoparticles being absorbed into the ovaries? One would think that the fact that his whole premise is wrong should clue you into the fact that he's full of BS.

But since you like junk science, here's a paper for you to read: (PDF) On the reception and detection of pseudo-profound bullshit, though maybe this article is also just as appropriate and just as valid as Dr. Malone's credentials. Low IQ and Conspiracy Theories: A Hand in Glove Relationship — GP and Writer

There's a reason why you haven't seen any recent work by him and it's not because he's being censored.

As for Ivermectin, I'll wait for any clinical research studies just like I would wait for the hydroxyquinone studies, which yielded nothing.

As for the spike protein being the cause of the illness? That's quite possible; however, the amount of spike proteins being produced by the vaccine are probably orders of magnitude less than the number that you would have if you actually contract COVID19.

In hindsight, maybe the moderators should hide these posts since this is all COVID disinformation, or move them to the lonewolf thread for non-mainstream info.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

bgc_fan said:


> Regardless of him thinking that he's the inventor of the mRNA vaccine. The whole premise in the video is wrong (lipid monoparticles being a surrogate for spike proteins). He shows some garbage graph as support. You can't just handwave the fact that it's a garbage graph and still accept that "bad things happen". You only have to use logic, and you don't even need to have a scientific background: you get injected with 0.3mL of vaccine, how does that translate into 13mL of lipid monoparticles being absorbed into the ovaries? One would think that the fact that his whole premise is wrong should clue you into the fact that he's full of BS.
> 
> But since you like junk science, here's a paper for you to read: (PDF) On the reception and detection of pseudo-profound bullshit, though maybe this article is also just as appropriate and just as valid as Dr. Malone's credentials. Low IQ and Conspiracy Theories: A Hand in Glove Relationship — GP and Writer
> 
> There's a reason why you haven't seen any recent work by him and it's not because he's being censored.
> 
> As for Ivermectin, I'll wait for any clinical research studies just like I would wait for the hydroxyquinone studies, which yielded nothing.
> 
> As for the spike protein being the cause of the illness? That's quite possible; however, the amount of spike proteins being produced by the vaccine are probably orders of magnitude less than the number that you would have if you actually contract COVID19.
> 
> In hindsight, maybe the moderators should hide these posts since this is all COVID disinformation, or move them to the lonewolf thread for non-mainstream info.


Typical ad hominem attacks. 

Ivermectin has been used to reverse covid and dramatically reduce hospitalizations in whole countries (Mexico, Peru, Certain provinces in India etc etc) somehow the MSM doesn't report this? 

Its been around since 1975 and is proven to be an extremely safe drug. Doctors all over the world are showing they can save lives with it and reduce the spread of covid to levels comparable to the vaccination. But 100+ studies and 25+ RCT are junk science, and we'll just leave them be and hope maybe a ventilator will help. How dare someone question this? Real doctoring in the field is dead, and we MUST to wait for pharma funded clinical trials? Well anyone can see theres a huge conflict of interest there. EUA experimental vaccines don't have a fraction of the safety record Ivermectin does, particularly long term.

In regards to Hydroxyquinone, the bashing of that had more to do with politics than the drug, there are studies showing it can be a benefit, but not nearly as effective or versatile as Ivermectin. 

Remember when the "fact check" entities said the lab leak theory was a conspiracy and said "liar liar pants on fire" to anybody who said it was quite plausible? Thats looking quite embarrassing now.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

His graph doesn't show 13ml, thats your straw man assumption. But okay I'll take your word for it him and multiple other experts who agree with him are wrong.

https://c19hcq.com Link to a large collection of studies on HCQ. Summary:

"Database of all HCQ COVID-19 studies. 311 studies, 229 peer reviewed, 259 comparing treatment and control groups. Submit updates/corrections below. HCQ is not effective when used very late with high dosages over a long period (RECOVERY/SOLIDARITY), effectiveness improves with earlier usage and improved dosing. Early treatment consistently shows positive effects. Negative evaluations typically ignore treatment time, often focusing on a subset of late stage studies. _In Vitro_ evidence made some believe that therapeutic levels would not be attained, however that was incorrect, e.g. see _[Ruiz]_."


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> Typical ad hominem attacks.
> 
> Ivermectin has been used to reverse covid and dramatically reduce hospitalizations in whole countries (Mexico, Peru, Certain provinces in India etc etc) somehow the MSM doesn't report this?
> 
> Its been around since 1975 and is proven to be an extremely safe drug. Doctors all over the world are showing they can save lives with it and reduce the spread of covid to levels comparable to the vaccination. But 100+ studies and 25+ RCT are junk science, and we'll just leave them be and hope maybe a ventilator will help. How dare someone question this? Real doctoring in the field is dead, and we MUST to wait for pharma funded clinical trials? Well anyone can see theres a huge conflict of interest there. EUA experimental vaccines don't have a fraction of the safety record Ivermectin does, particularly long term.
> 
> In regards to Hydroxyquinone, the bashing of that had more to do with politics than the drug, there are studies showing it can be a benefit, but not nearly as effective or versatile as Ivermectin.
> 
> Remember when the "fact check" entities said the lab leak theory was a conspiracy and said "liar liar pants on fire" to anybody who said it was quite plausible? Thats looking quite embarrassing now.


First of all I was pointing out what he was saying wrong, but you still cling to the idea that he is an expert to be believed. That's not ad hominem attack. Unless you're talking about low IQ and conspiracy theories, but that's not an ad hominem attack, it's just science.

Please, why not actually post links to these studies so we can look at them? It's just hydroxyquinone all over again. People saying that it'll be the cure but never show any studies. And then the studies that are presented, are flawed.

The lab leak conspiracy that was presented had 2 parts: leaked from the lab, and China weaponized it. What scientists debunked was the idea that it was weaponized due to the similarities to existing coronavirus sequences. But whether it escaped from the lab, or was in the wild is still to be determined. Though in the end, does it change the current situation? The Wuhan Lab Leak Hypothesis Is A Conspiracy Theory, Not Science



5Lgreenback said:


> His graph doesn't show 13ml, thats your straw man assumption. But okay I'll take your word for it him and multiple other experts who agree with him are wrong.


That's right, his graph shows a scale going up to 13 with no units. Like I said junk, because numbers without units are meaningless. Any 1st year university undergrad student would know that. But then you look at the title and in it he has in brackets (mL) which could indicate what the numbers are supposed to signify. Since you think you have the answers, what do the numbers on the y-axis indicate then? And what other experts? The talking heads in the video? One who's a discredited evolutionary biologist who has no background in virology?

As for the HCQ "studies", most involve so few people that they are statistically insignificant, or cherry picked so we're mainly talking about lower-risked groups who take HCQ, and disregard the higher-risked groups.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> In hindsight, maybe the moderators should hide these posts since this is all COVID disinformation, or move them to the lonewolf thread for non-mainstream info.


 I disagree. 
Vaccine is experiential and isn’t fully licensed. Large side effects potentially might arise in the future, and manufacturers conveniently were given immunity against any future litigation.


----------



## sags

All medications people use daily have known side effects.

As the science advances, we will have better vaccines and treatments.

For now, we are facing a COVID rampage such as was seen in India, where any of the "miracle" drugs were used there didn't seem to be a significant reduction in deaths. So many people were dying they ran out of oxygen and wood to burn to cremate all the bodies.

The vaccines are the only protection we have, unless you advocate for total lock downs......as in locked inside your home.

The Chinese locked everyone down, which means they knew a lot more than they were telling the world.

I think it is still important to know what it was they created, so we can develop ways to combat it. There are still many symptoms of COVID and other "unknowns" that baffle the doctors and scientists, including how it mutates at a much faster rate than they would expect to see in a virus.

For example......nobody knows if the virus has the capability, as some viruses do, to lay dormant to avoid detection only to return later.


----------



## sags

On mutations......the latest is that the India (Delta) virus has mutated again, with a few new cases showing up in India.

We won't know for some time if the vaccines are effective against that new mutation or the Vietnamese mutation.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Yeah, and I wonder how many of us that got the shot will wonder in the future, where those leukaemias and lymphomas are coming from.
> Thank you governments for experimenting on us.


 ... you don't even need to develop vaccines for leukemias, lymphomas and all other cancers. The (contaminated) water you drink from the tap or the rainfall that falls onto our veggies are already cheap sources for these diseases.


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> I disagree.
> Vaccine is experiential and isn’t fully licensed. Large side effects potentially might arise in the future, and manufacturers conveniently were given immunity against any future litigation.


There can be some REASONABLE concerns. However, there's a case to be made that concerns not based on any sort of science that someone is randomly spouting is a completely different matter. Things like that video only echo people who talk about infertility or penis shrinkage.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Only problem is the spouters of these concerns actually believe (themselves) what they're spouting are all "science", "facts", "data" based. Needles to say, they're experts ... in spoutings that is.


----------



## bgc_fan

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Only problem is the spouters of these concerns actually believe (themselves) what they're spouting are all "science", "facts", "data" based. Needles to say, they're experts ... in spoutings that is.


The good and bad part of the internet is that it can disseminate information pretty rapidly... unfortunately lots of people can't distinguish what's reasonable and what's BS.

Here's a recent story about the effectiveness of vaccines. A coronavirus outbreak hit a Florida government building. Two people are dead but a vaccinated employee wasn't infected

7 people working in an IT department: 2 dead (unvaccinated), 4 hospitalized (unvaccinated), 1 not infected (vaccinated).


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> Here's a recent story


It’s CNN news


----------



## sags

Ukrainiandude said:


> It’s CNN news


No, it was an interview with the Manatee County Administrator Scott Hopes who revealed the information.

_Of the six people infected, five were hospitalized. One employee who was in the hospital died and another employee who was not hospitalized also died, Hopes told CNN's Erin Burnett.

The only exposed employee in the IT office who was vaccinated did not get infected, Hopes said.

"The clinical presentation gives me concern that we're dealing with a very infectious variant that is quite deadly," Hopes told Burnett._


----------



## 5Lgreenback

bgc_fan said:


> First of all I was pointing out what he was saying wrong, but you still cling to the idea that he is an expert to be believed. That's not ad hominem attack.
> 
> _ *Virologist Dr. Byron Briddle, and Dr Peter McCollough would be the first outspoken experts that agree with Dr. Malone that I can think of. As to that graph in particular, it wasn't Dr. Malones he just cross referenced the data on it from Pfizers data to make sure it was correct. Yes, I wish there were units on the Y-axis, and I'm sure if one wanted to dig the depths of the internet they could find that data and more. Feel free to listen to the whole 3.5 hour podcast to get more context as well.*_
> 
> Unless you're talking about low IQ and conspiracy theories, but that's not an ad hominem attack, it's just science.
> 
> *Edward Snowden must have a rock bottom IQ. I wonder what the IQ is of people that refuse to question the information they're given, despite this information being provided by an industry with huge conflicts of interest and with a sociopathic track record?*
> 
> _*Former CBS investigative reporter Sharyl Attkisson- TED talks clip on how pharma industry manipulates data and peoples perceptions:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Dr. Peter Gotsche cofounder of the Cochrane Collaboration clip on pharma industries corrupting everything they touch. He was later voted out of for publishing information that was good for public health, but bad for healthcare business and bad for pharama industry trying to push unnecessary and damaging drugs. He has now started out on his own in an attempt to keep the science honest.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> Please, why not actually post links to these studies so we can look at them? It's just hydroxyquinone all over again. People saying that it'll be the cure but never show any studies. And then the studies that are presented, are flawed.
> 
> _*I already posted a link to the studies, but here it is again:* Ivermectin for COVID-19: real-time analysis of all 98 studies
> 
> *They have taken the time to gather all the relevant data and keep updating it. You can see the summary of the studies there, as well as click on any of the 98 studies individually. And yes no study is ever without its flaws, but the bulk of evidence here is undeniable.
> 
> For those that would prefer a much more palatable article as compared to combing through studies, heres one by an impassioned doctor trying to break through the corruption around Ivermectin*
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.thedesertreview.com/news/national/ivermectin-obliterates-97-percent-of-delhi-cases/article_6a3be6b2-c31f-11eb-836d-2722d2325a08.html
> 
> 
> 
> *Here is testimony by Pierre Kory, MD at the Homeland Security Committee meeting with lots of good data, and treatment protocols. Please note this was back in December of 2020, and the amount of studies showing the power of ivermectin since this time has more than doubled!*_
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Testimony-Kory-2020-12-08.pdf
> 
> 
> _*Global Medical & Scientific Experts Calling Upon World Governments to Act Now to Save Lives:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Dr. Tess Lawrie- a powerful speech at the IICC conference on the corruption of science and the need for independent third parties with no conflicts of interest.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> The lab leak conspiracy that was presented had 2 parts: leaked from the lab, and China weaponized it. What scientists debunked was the idea that it was weaponized due to the similarities to existing coronavirus sequences. But whether it escaped from the lab, or was in the wild is still to be determined. Though in the end, does it change the current situation? The Wuhan Lab Leak Hypothesis Is A Conspiracy Theory, Not Science
> 
> _*The coincidence of the virology lab being down the street from where this pandemic apparently started that just happened to do gain of function research on these exact type viruses, isn't enough of a red flag? And despite F*_*auci's lying, all experts I've seen say this is in fact a gain of function research lab. There is 2017 video footage of bats in cages in the Wuhan lab, but we were told they never used bats in Wuhan lab.*
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> _
> *Okay, how about the evidence showing genetic manipulation of the virus? Or the fact that the virus tends to spread indoors much more easily than outdoors? Also the fact that it had ability jump so easily from person right from the onset points in the direction of of virus being human modified. 3 Wuhan virology lab workers getting hospitalized in Nov 2019 showing symptoms suggesting like covid 19? The Chinese government destroying files from the lab in January 2020?
> 
> Not to mention Dr Fauci himself getting caught blatantly lying on this topic and others, his emails show a story of somebody desperately trying to hide something and making sure he controlled the narrative around information released, and to shame anybody suggesting this could be a lab leak. And our top notch main stream "journalists" just took his word for it.*
> 
> _*But on a lighter note, at least Jon Stewart can see through the insulting propaganda on the lab leak "conspiracy". I'm sure his IQ is low as well. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jon Stewart On Vaccine Science And The Wuhan Lab Theory
> 
> 
> We're back in the Ed Sullivan Theater and it's only right that Stephen's first guest is none other than friend of the show, Jon Stewart. What did they talk a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.youtube.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


----------



## Spudd

The thing with Ivermectin is that Merck (the manufacturers of the product) themselves recommend against using it for Covid-19. If it was really effective, would they not want to make money by selling it as a treatment?








Merck Statement on Ivermectin use During the COVID-19 Pandemic - Merck.com


KENILWORTH, N.J., Feb. 4, 2021 – Merck (NYSE: MRK), known as MSD outside the United States and Canada, today affirmed its position regarding use of ivermectin during the COVID-19 pandemic. Company scientists continue to carefully examine the findings of all available and emerging studies of...




www.merck.com





I don't know why these conspiracy theories have sprung up regarding Covid treatments/vaccines but personally, I feel confident that thousands of scientists around the world are observing and working towards solutions. The fact that they were transparent about the blood clots from the AZ vaccine and the heart myocarditis from the Pfizer vaccine lends credence to this. They have done clinical trials on HCQ and the scientific consensus is that the benefits from it do not outweigh the side effects. Many, many doctors are trying their hardest to save their patients who have this disease. Why would it be in their interest to lie about these things?

The creators of these podcasts get money every time someone clicks on it to listen to their views. The more scary and shadowy they make their views, the more clicks they get. "OMG did you hear that...". That is a clear motivation to make up scary sounding facts and take advantage of the general public's fear of the pandemic and vaccines. 

I don't see a similar motivation for scientists and doctors to say that certain drugs are NOT effective. If you said they were lying that they ARE effective because they're paid by the pharma industry, that would be more plausible. But what possible reason would they have to lie and say they're not effective?


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> The thing with Ivermectin is that Merck (the manufacturers of the product) themselves recommend against using it for Covid-19. If it was really effective, would they not want to make money by selling it as a treatment?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Merck Statement on Ivermectin use During the COVID-19 Pandemic - Merck.com
> 
> 
> KENILWORTH, N.J., Feb. 4, 2021 – Merck (NYSE: MRK), known as MSD outside the United States and Canada, today affirmed its position regarding use of ivermectin during the COVID-19 pandemic. Company scientists continue to carefully examine the findings of all available and emerging studies of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.merck.com



Merck is manufacturing vaccines for J&J, as well as receiving billions of dollars in government funds to create new drugs for covid. Admitting to the effectiveness of its now off patent (ie no longer profitable) ivermectin would mean they would lose billions of dollars. Conflict of interest is an understatement. Furthermore admitting to the prophylactic effects of the Ivermectin would also be admitting that using new experimental (zero liability) vaccines on people is unethical and against the Nuremberg code established after WW2.

As for the rest of your questions about why would they lie?

I think the easiest way to sum it up is most doctors aren't lying, and don't have to lie, they just refer to the corrupted regulatory bodies guidance and don't question it or do any good old fashioned real doctoring to figure things out. At the end of the day theres no liability and a large pay cheque, who wouldn't chose that? Of course theres more to it than this, and some of the above links I posted explain things better.

Most of these outspoken doctors are working for non profits and have used their own funding to get these studies done and get the word out. They stand to gain nothing financially by telling the world to save lives with Ivermectin, I hight doubt they are putting this info out to get a high view count, in fact most of their videos and content aren't even monetized.

Dr. Peter McCullough has the most peer reviewed literature on covid 19 in the US and also the most outspoken on the handling of this pandemic and trying to get the word out on Ivermectin and other drugs. A long interview with him, but worth a listen.


----------



## sags

Since Dr. McCullough teaches in Texas, why has Texas done so poorly with COVID ?

If he has the "treatment solution" one would think they would have deployed it in Texas and had better results than they did.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Indian Bar Association serves legal notice on WHO for 'disinformation' - British Ivermectin Recommendation Development group


The Indian Bar Association has issued formal legal notice against the WHO, charging them with a deliberate ‘disinformation campaign’ against ivermectin by suppressing the data showing effectiveness of the drug. Directed at Dr Soumya Swaminathan, Chief Scientist at WHO, they also accuse the body...




bird-group.org





Indian Bar Association serves legal notice on WHO and their chief scientist for disinformation around ivermectin. 

Strange I never saw this on CBC or any mainstream media outlet? Coincidence Im sure.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

sags said:


> Since Dr. McCullough teaches in Texas, why has Texas done so poorly with COVID ?
> 
> If he has the "treatment solution" one would think they would have deployed it in Texas and had better results than they did.


 Umm perhaps because he can only control himself and those who work directly under him???


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> The thing with Ivermectin is that Merck (the manufacturers of the product) themselves recommend against using it for Covid-19. If it was really effective, would they not want to make money by selling it as a treatment?


 Ivermectin is dirty cheap, ($150 for 500 ml at the retail) used for cattle and pigs. Generic stuff is even cheaper.
it costs between $1-2 per treatment".... no big money for big pharma.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Honestly the Interview with Dr. McCullough is a must watch. Somethings rotten in Denmark.


----------



## bgc_fan

Unfortunately you messed up the quote function, so it's difficult to respond to your points, but I'll try.

_*Virologist Dr. Byron Briddle, and Dr Peter McCollough would be the first outspoken experts that agree with Dr. Malone that I can think of. As to that graph in particular, it wasn't Dr. Malones he just cross referenced the data on it from Pfizers data to make sure it was correct. Yes, I wish there were units on the Y-axis, and I'm sure if one wanted to dig the depths of the internet they could find that data and more. Feel free to listen to the whole 3.5 hour podcast to get more context as well.*_

*There weren't any units. The fact that you don't even remember is indication. So they believe that the spike protein is toxic. That's nice. No proof or hypothesis of mechanism? Basically just conjecture and weak correlation. BTW correlation is not causation, but anyone could tell you that.

Edward Snowden must have a rock bottom IQ. I wonder what the IQ is of people that refuse to question the information they're given, despite this information being provided by an industry with huge conflicts of interest and with a sociopathic track record?*

Never knew him to be particularly smart, he just had insider information that people already knew or suspected. If you don't think that the US government isn't spying on everyone, then you're woefully ignorant.

As for Ivermectin in India: No data available to suggest a link between India’s reduction of COVID-19 cases and the use of ivermectin. I've got a better explanation, it's the increase in vaccination rates. It's a similar curve that we had in Canada when vaccination rates started increasing significantly. And you'll notice that article link you sent doesn't actually prove what you think it proves. He shows that the cases are going down which is more indicative of vaccination. If he wanted to show that ivermectin was an effective treatment, he'd show a graph of increased survivability of infected patients, or decreased mortality, which isn't what his graph indicates.









As for studies, here's one for example: Antiviral effect of high-dose ivermectin in adults with COVID-19: A proof-of-concept randomized trial. Let's ignore the fact that they used PCR to calculate viral loads (hint, you can't do that), the viral load reduction between treated and non-treated is practically the same. They talk about the viral decay rate being different, but kind of irrelevant. They also point out that they didn't bother showing the clinical results. Chances are that means that everyone recovered, but that would mean Ivermectin really didn't do anything for this limited study. But might as well publish something I guess.

_*The coincidence of the virology lab being down the street from where this pandemic apparently started that just happened to do gain of function research on these exact type viruses, isn't enough of a red flag? And despite F*_*auci's lying, all experts I've seen say this is in fact a gain of function research lab. There is 2017 video footage of bats in cages in the Wuhan lab, but we were told they never used bats in Wuhan lab.*

Well, people like talking about the gain of function as if there was something nefarious, but here's something to explain a bit more about it: Before Wuhan row, how US-China created SARS-like virus in 2015 to show its pandemic potential.

*Okay, how about the evidence showing genetic manipulation of the virus? Or the fact that the virus tends to spread indoors much more easily than outdoors? Also the fact that it had ability jump so easily from person right from the onset points in the direction of of virus being human modified. 3 Wuhan virology lab workers getting hospitalized in Nov 2019 showing symptoms suggesting like covid 19? The Chinese government destroying files from the lab in January 2020?*

As for genetic evidence that the sequence wasn't manipulated. Genetic splicing leaves obvious fingerprints in the sequence which are not shown in the COVID sequence. Here's how scientists know the coronavirus came from bats and wasn't made in a lab.
You're kidding right? Virus tends to spread indoors much more easily than outdoors? Here's a hint, in an enclosed environment, virus (any type of virus) will stick around, and infect others when in close proximity. You honestly think THAT's an indicator that something is wrong? You want to guess why flu season tends to be around the winter times when people stay indoors more often?

3 lab workers getting hospitalized could indicate poor lab safety protocols.

Destroyed files or samples? China confirms US accusations that it destroyed early samples of the novel coronavirus, but says it was done for 'biosafety reasons'

No argument that China was trying to minimize the outbreak and their lack of early response, but these arguments trying to prove that it was a lab-developed virus hold no water.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> Destroyed files or samples? China confirms US accusations that it destroyed early samples of the novel coronavirus, but says it was done for 'biosafety reasons'


 No need to destroy samples, viruses can easily be contained safely.


----------



## sags

A story in the Washington Post yesterday stated.....

_In 2019 in the United States alone, 219 accidental releases of “select agents” — deadly viruses or toxins — and 13 lost samples were recorded by U.S. regulators in the Federal Select Agent Program’s annual report. _


----------



## 5Lgreenback

bgc_fan said:


> Unfortunately you messed up the quote function, so it's difficult to respond to your points, but I'll try.
> 
> _*Virologist Dr. Byron Briddle, and Dr Peter McCollough would be the first outspoken experts that agree with Dr. Malone that I can think of. As to that graph in particular, it wasn't Dr. Malones he just cross referenced the data on it from Pfizers data to make sure it was correct. Yes, I wish there were units on the Y-axis, and I'm sure if one wanted to dig the depths of the internet they could find that data and more. Feel free to listen to the whole 3.5 hour podcast to get more context as well.*_
> 
> *There weren't any units. The fact that you don't even remember is indication. So they believe that the spike protein is toxic. That's nice. No proof or hypothesis of mechanism? Basically just conjecture and weak correlation. BTW correlation is not causation, but anyone could tell you that.
> 
> Edward Snowden must have a rock bottom IQ. I wonder what the IQ is of people that refuse to question the information they're given, despite this information being provided by an industry with huge conflicts of interest and with a sociopathic track record?*
> 
> Never knew him to be particularly smart, he just had insider information that people already knew or suspected. If you don't think that the US government isn't spying on everyone, then you're woefully ignorant.
> 
> As for Ivermectin in India: No data available to suggest a link between India’s reduction of COVID-19 cases and the use of ivermectin. I've got a better explanation, it's the increase in vaccination rates. It's a similar curve that we had in Canada when vaccination rates started increasing significantly. And you'll notice that article link you sent doesn't actually prove what you think it proves. He shows that the cases are going down which is more indicative of vaccination. If he wanted to show that ivermectin was an effective treatment, he'd show a graph of increased survivability of infected patients, or decreased mortality, which isn't what his graph indicates.
> View attachment 21805
> 
> 
> As for studies, here's one for example: Antiviral effect of high-dose ivermectin in adults with COVID-19: A proof-of-concept randomized trial. Let's ignore the fact that they used PCR to calculate viral loads (hint, you can't do that), the viral load reduction between treated and non-treated is practically the same. They talk about the viral decay rate being different, but kind of irrelevant. They also point out that they didn't bother showing the clinical results. Chances are that means that everyone recovered, but that would mean Ivermectin really didn't do anything for this limited study. But might as well publish something I guess.
> 
> _*The coincidence of the virology lab being down the street from where this pandemic apparently started that just happened to do gain of function research on these exact type viruses, isn't enough of a red flag? And despite F*_*auci's lying, all experts I've seen say this is in fact a gain of function research lab. There is 2017 video footage of bats in cages in the Wuhan lab, but we were told they never used bats in Wuhan lab.*
> 
> Well, people like talking about the gain of function as if there was something nefarious, but here's something to explain a bit more about it: Before Wuhan row, how US-China created SARS-like virus in 2015 to show its pandemic potential.
> 
> *Okay, how about the evidence showing genetic manipulation of the virus? Or the fact that the virus tends to spread indoors much more easily than outdoors? Also the fact that it had ability jump so easily from person right from the onset points in the direction of of virus being human modified. 3 Wuhan virology lab workers getting hospitalized in Nov 2019 showing symptoms suggesting like covid 19? The Chinese government destroying files from the lab in January 2020?*
> 
> As for genetic evidence that the sequence wasn't manipulated. Genetic splicing leaves obvious fingerprints in the sequence which are not shown in the COVID sequence. Here's how scientists know the coronavirus came from bats and wasn't made in a lab.
> You're kidding right? Virus tends to spread indoors much more easily than outdoors? Here's a hint, in an enclosed environment, virus (any type of virus) will stick around, and infect others when in close proximity. You honestly think THAT's an indicator that something is wrong? You want to guess why flu season tends to be around the winter times when people stay indoors more often?
> 
> 3 lab workers getting hospitalized could indicate poor lab safety protocols.
> 
> Destroyed files or samples? China confirms US accusations that it destroyed early samples of the novel coronavirus, but says it was done for 'biosafety reasons'
> 
> No argument that China was trying to minimize the outbreak an
> 
> d their lack of early response, but these arguments trying to prove that it was a lab-developed virus hold no water.



A summary of *98 studies showing remarkable life saving benefits*. And ability to stop infection as well as the vaccines. It may even have a greater ability to prevent the spread than vaccines. It was linked in the previous post.



















Ivermectin for COVID-19: real-time analysis of all 172 studies


Ivermectin for COVID-19: real-time analysis of all 172 studies




c19ivermectin.com





Dr. Tess Lawries, Meta Analyses on Ivermectin has now been peer reviewed and published:






Dr. John Campbell subtly breaks down data on taxpayer money for therapeutics of covid, destined for Merck and the conflicts of interest that are present. Catches one of our great our leaders contradicting themselves in regards to Ivermectin. He has called out the WHO and FDA , CDC in past videos for ignoring the data in regards to Ivermectin.


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> A summary of *98 studies showing remarkable life saving benefits*. And ability to stop infection as well as the vaccines. It may even have a greater ability to prevent the spread than vaccines. It was linked in the previous post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ivermectin for COVID-19: real-time analysis of all 172 studies
> 
> 
> Ivermectin for COVID-19: real-time analysis of all 172 studies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> c19ivermectin.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Tess Lawries, Meta Analyses on Ivermectin has now been peer reviewed and published:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. John Campbell subtly breaks down data on taxpayer money for therapeutics of covid, destined for Merck and the conflicts of interest that are present. Catches one of our great our leaders contradicting themselves in regards to Ivermectin. He has called out the WHO and FDA , CDC in past videos for ignoring the data in regards to Ivermectin.


So now we're going to give up on anti-vax conspiracies and just settle on Ivermectin. Oh, and I pointed out one of the studies that shows it does nothing. I'm not going to bother going through the rest of them. A cursory looks shows that many of them are meta-studies which means they are practically useless as they just build upon other papers.

Ok, so why not answer @Spudd 's question on why Merck, would be in conflict of interest of not recommending a drug that THEY produce?

Edit: On the other hand, maybe YOU should actually look at some of the studies as they'll show no statistical difference between treated and non-treated:




__





Clinical study evaluating the efficacy of ivermectin in COVID‐19 treatment: A randomized controlled study






onlinelibrary.wiley.com






https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2777389


----------



## Ukrainiandude

So much for democracy 
SASKATOON -- The University of Saskatchewan has suspended a surgery professor who publicly made claims concerning COVID-19 vaccines.

Dr. Francis Christian appeared in an online video where he called for the pause of the COVID-19 vaccinations for children and called the vaccines "experimental injections."


----------



## Ukrainiandude

More news on experimental vaccines 
*12.6 reported cases of heart inflammation per million second doses given, U.S. data shows*
In a Wednesday presentation, the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) noted that early data from its database shows a rate of 4.4 reported cases of heart inflammation per million first doses given of any mRNA vaccine in the 21 days following vaccination.

That rate jumped to 12.6 reported cases per million second doses.

I wonder how many of these went unreported.

It’s too bad Canadian government has mostly purchased mRNA vaccines vs Astra Zeneca


----------



## 5Lgreenback

bgc_fan said:


> So now we're going to give up on anti-vax conspiracies and just settle on Ivermectin. Oh, and I pointed out one of the studies that shows it does nothing. I'm not going to bother going through the rest of them. A cursory looks shows that many of them are meta-studies which means they are practically useless as they just build upon other papers.
> 
> Ok, so why not answer @Spudd 's question on why Merck, would be in conflict of interest of not recommending a drug that THEY produce?





bgc_fan said:


> So now we're going to give up on anti-vax conspiracies and just settle on Ivermectin. Oh, and I pointed out one of the studies that shows it does nothing. I'm not going to bother going through the rest of them. A cursory looks shows that many of them are meta-studies which means they are practically useless as they just build upon other papers.
> 
> Ok, so why not answer @Spudd 's question on why Merck, would be in conflict of interest of not recommending a drug that THEY produce?
> 
> Edit: On the other hand, maybe YOU should actually look at some of the studies as they'll show no statistical difference between treated and non-treated:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clinical study evaluating the efficacy of ivermectin in COVID‐19 treatment: A randomized controlled study
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> onlinelibrary.wiley.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2777389



Oh apparently I missed that study was a cherry picked one to from my link? My mistake Im on a weird schedule this week. There are many higher quality ones in the mix there. And even the one you showed at the very least showed some benefit, and was SAFE! IE harmless to allow doctors to use it for out patient treatment!

I did answer Spudd?? its on the previous page, and the conflict of interest is shown in Dr. Campbells video above as well.

Frankly I don't have time to go back and forth here, I just encourage people to listen to these independent doctors with an open mind. They have less incentive to lie to us than the establishment does.


Edit heres a quick link for fun - Effects of a Single Dose of Ivermectin on Viral and Clinical Outcomes in Asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 Infected Subjects: A Pilot Clinical Trial in Lebanon

100 patients in Lebanon. Peer reviewed. 85.7% reduction in hospiltilziation. Theres plenty more similar to this one. But according to you this isn't good enough, we should just let the patients die rather than use a safe and effective drug. Criminal. 

Forced vaccinations, people happily accepting illegal vaccine passports and whistleblowers being muzzled. All of this on a global scale. Fast track to George Orwells 1984. No reason to be suspicious.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Ukrainiandude said:


> More news on experimental vaccines
> *12.6 reported cases of heart inflammation per million second doses given, U.S. data shows*
> In a Wednesday presentation, the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) noted that early data from its database shows a rate of 4.4 reported cases of heart inflammation per million first doses given of any mRNA vaccine in the 21 days following vaccination.
> 
> That rate jumped to 12.6 reported cases per million second doses.
> 
> I wonder how many of these went unreported.
> 
> It’s too bad Canadian government has mostly purchased mRNA vaccines vs Astra Zeneca


Dr. McCollough and others claim the VAERS reports are possibly underreported by up to 10x. Personally I'll take the opinion of him as he actually chose to *save lives *during this pandemic vs the establishment that threatened to fire doctors for providing early treatment of covid. IE let them die, keep them scared.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Now all the vaccine 'experts' are coming out with their studies, facts, data, and even theories with all those links, podcasts, and what haves about the dangers of the millions/gazillion of jabs given around the world. 

Kinda late ain't it especially with the screams to "OPEN UP THE ECONOMY, NO MORE LOCKDOWNS, NO MORE RESTRICTIONS, NO MORE SUICIDES, NO MORE MASKS, NO <FILL-IN-THE-BLANK> !!!!? 

Meanwhile, the vaccines remain "voluntary" and there's still the bleach injection option for these guys.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7uVXKgE6eLJKMXkETwcw0D



Joe Rogan holds"Emergency" podcast with Dr. Pierre Kory and Brett Weinstien. All about Ivermectin, its effectiveness and how its being intentionally confused.

Something just isn't right, and I'm pretty sure if people realize that after they been manipulated into 2 jabs and accepting vaccine passports, it will be too late. I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> Oh apparently I missed that study was a cherry picked one to from my link? My mistake Im on a weird schedule this week. There are many higher quality ones in the mix there. And even the one you showed at the very least showed some benefit, and was SAFE! IE harmless to allow doctors to use it for out patient treatment!
> 
> I did answer Spudd?? its on the previous page, and the conflict of interest is shown in Dr. Campbells video above as well.
> 
> Frankly I don't have time to go back and forth here, I just encourage people to listen to these independent doctors with an open mind. They have less incentive to lie to us than the establishment does.
> 
> 
> Edit heres a quick link for fun - Effects of a Single Dose of Ivermectin on Viral and Clinical Outcomes in Asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 Infected Subjects: A Pilot Clinical Trial in Lebanon
> 
> 100 patients in Lebanon. Peer reviewed. 85.7% reduction in hospiltilziation. Theres plenty more similar to this one. But according to you this isn't good enough, we should just let the patients die rather than use a safe and effective drug. Criminal.
> 
> Forced vaccinations, people happily accepting illegal vaccine passports and whistleblowers being muzzled. All of this on a global scale. Fast track to George Orwells 1984. No reason to be suspicious.


Yes... all these scientists have a reason to lie to us, but the few that you listen don't. The reason why conspiracy theories tend to be BS is that they require thousands of people to be involved, and yet, it's the lone outsider that blows the whistle. You want to explain your reasoning why the establishment would lie? And try to use your own words instead of posting another video link of someone else talking.

From the paper: 
_However, larger-scale trials are warranted for this conclusion to be further cemented._

100 patients isn't good enough. While they did a decent job of randomizing the patients, this is only the start. 3 vs 0 people getting hospitalized isn't much of an indication of statistical difference. Also to note that hospitalization is a vague term that they didn't define, and obviously they didn't die.

You know, it would be a nice change of pace to actually have a discussion? I mean all you do is parrot other people. Why not actually make arguments in your own words.


----------



## Spudd

As for the argument that Merck is developing other more expensive Covid-19 drugs and so they don't want to sell the cheap Ivermectin, to me this makes no sense at all. Companies live for their quarterly earnings reports. If they can up their sales of Ivermectin until their new drug is ready, so much the better, no? Also, third-world countries will surely not be able to afford their amazing expensive new drug, so they can still buy Ivermectin while the first world countries buy the new better drug. Based on the few studies I looked at, there doesn't seem to be massively compelling evidence that Ivermectin is awesome, so presumably the new drug would be better. 

I have nothing against using Ivermectin as a treatment if it's shown to be effective. But obviously the better option is to prevent people from getting the disease in the first place via vaccination. I can't imagine taking prophylactic anti-worming medication every day for the rest of my life to avoid getting Covid when I could just get a vaccine. Do you prefer to take a daily Ivermectin pill rather than getting vaccinated??

I get that your concern is regarding the mRNA vaccines. I personally think it's unwarranted, but if you're scared, opt for the AstraZeneca or J&J shot. I think the J&J is hard to come by, but hopefully soon it will be more available.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> So much for democracy
> SASKATOON -- The University of Saskatchewan has suspended a surgery professor who publicly made claims concerning COVID-19 vaccines.
> 
> Dr. Francis Christian appeared in an online video where he called for the pause of the COVID-19 vaccinations for children and called the vaccines "experimental injections."



This is why it is so important to have free speech.
COVID19 seems to be very interesting and "breaks" quite a few of the "rules" on how a virus works.

There are different antivaxxers.
There are the ones who just hate the idea of vaccines, and there are those with legitimate concerns.

When you fire, punish or silence people who raise concerns, it increases those who are legitimately skeptical.

I don't think there is a conspiracy, as much as an attempt to control the message and silence opposition. This is how you consolidate power.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> As for the argument that Merck is developing other more expensive Covid-19 drugs and so they don't want to sell the cheap Ivermectin, to me this makes no sense at all. Companies live for their quarterly earnings reports. If they can up their sales of Ivermectin until their new drug is ready, so much the better, no? Also, third-world countries will surely not be able to afford their amazing expensive new drug, so they can still buy Ivermectin while the first world countries buy the new better drug. Based on the few studies I looked at, there doesn't seem to be massively compelling evidence that Ivermectin is awesome, so presumably the new drug would be better.
> 
> 
> I have nothing against using Ivermectin as a treatment if it's shown to be effective. But obviously the better option is to prevent people from getting the disease in the first place via vaccination. I can't imagine taking prophylactic anti-worming medication every day for the rest of my life to avoid getting Covid when I could just get a vaccine. Do you prefer to take a daily Ivermectin pill rather than getting vaccinated??
> 
> I get that your concern is regarding the mRNA vaccines. I personally think it's unwarranted, but if you're scared, opt for the AstraZeneca or J&J shot. I think the J&J is hard to come by, but hopefully soon it will be more available.


Thats not how it works. Ivermectin is off patent, any small pharma can make it. Very little money to be made, and they also would loose their vaccine making contract, and the billions of taxpayers money to manufacture a new "ivermectin."
Theres strong evidence that theres is scientific misconduct going down with regards to this drug, in an attempt to hide the truth. You'll also find google has rigged your searches to make sure almost everything is in line with the pro vax campaign.

Thats also not how the studies work for prophylactic use of ivermectin. For example, one study showed 86% effective at reducing covid infection with one dose taken monthly. Another study showed 100% effective at preventing covid with one dose weekly. One of the above studies was on frontline health care workers, who obviously have high exposure to covid and thats how effective the drug was. Studies are on the site I've linked previously. Strong evidence we could eradicate this virus with this drug with possibly just a few months of use, which would render these vaccines illegal.

BGC is being disingenuous with his ivermectin arguments and studies. Trying to claim meta analysis is not a strong from of science? Right. So theres no need to go back and forth there and I don't have time. I encourage people to look over the links I posted for themselves. Shockingly, you'll find google won't bring them up in most searches.

I just saw an advertisement from the government recommending pregnant women get the jab! That is terrifying, RED FLAG people! A needle in every arm at all costs!? <---- How about NO! *Where are all the investigative journalists in the past 18 months!?*

This is not about "opening up our economy and ending lockdowns." Or saving lives. If it was, we would have allowed early treatment of patients who contracted covid from the start! Thats how you are SUPPOSED to treat almost all viruses.

Vax passports and liberals trying to push through bill C-10 to end free speech and freedom of information, this is NOT okay, and huge red flag here.

At this point I feel its a moral obligation to spread the word, despite being called names, conspiracy theorist or whatever else gets thrown at me. Obviously I can't claim to know whats exactly going on behind the scenes, but I can say for certain, we are being lied to, and theres a strong signal that something really isn't right here.

Most "questions" asked of me are answered in many of the sources I've posted if your genuinely interested, and I think we all should be, I suggest checking them out.


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> Thats also not how the studies work for prophylactic use of ivermectin. For example, one study showed 86% effective at reducing covid infection with one dose taken monthly. Another study showed 100% effective at preventing covid with one dose weekly. One of the above studies was on frontline health care workers, who obviously have high exposure to covid and thats how effective the drug was. Studies are on the site I've linked previously. Strong evidence we could eradicate this virus with this drug with possibly just a few months of use, which would render these vaccines illegal.


Except for the fact that the half-life of ivermectin is only 12-36 hours and metabolites may only remain in the body for 3 days. So the idea that you can take it once a month and still be effective over the whole month when it is flushed from the body after 3 days, should make you doubt that claim a bit.



5Lgreenback said:


> BGC is being disingenuous with his ivermectin arguments and studies. Trying to claim meta analysis is not a strong from of science? Right. So theres no need to go back and forth there and I don't have time. I encourage people to look over the links I posted for themselves. Shockingly, you'll find google won't bring them up in most searches.


Not at all. You have to realize that meta analysis is based on other studies. If the other studies have no basis or flawed, then it's a situation of garbage in, garbage out. So if you point out a dozen meta analysis studies based on the same 5 studies, you really only have 5 studies to consider as support, not 17.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Nothing to see here.


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> Nothing to see here.


Possibly. Is it based from this story? Uttar Pradesh government says early use of Ivermectin helped to keep positivity, deaths low

We're talking about the RRT in May-June 2020, and a possible study follow-up... don't seem to see anything done. And the cluster they're talking about was 5 people. Since they're light on details, i.e. I'm going to assume that the RRT was wearing PPE, which decreases infection rate quite a bit. BTW, did you notice that despite working with covid patients on a regular basis, our hospital staff did not all come down with COVID despite not taking ivermectin.

As for controlling the spread of COVID, it's probably due more to the strict social distancing measure they had at the time. You'd think that if they were using Ivermectin back then and still using it (and if it was effective), they wouldn't have the big spike earlier this year in March/April?


----------



## sags

The guy's own resume says he was a nurse and did some teaching, but there is nothing about his education or history of being a Doctor.

My wife was a specialty RN in hospitals for decades but that didn't make her an expert on virus vaccines or treatments.

In the burn unit and on the surgical floors she did of course learn best practices on how to prevent infection in wounds.

Maybe getting ad revenue from Youtube for 35 million views is a factor in producing clickbait videos that people will watch.









An emergency nurse went viral on YouTube for his videos on the coronavirus, bringing in millions of views on his health and science lectures


John Campbell's videos, many of which provide updates on the pandemic, have racked up over 35 million views.




www.insider.com


----------



## sags

I am thinking Dr. Sags should take to the airwaves........


----------



## 5Lgreenback

bgc_fan said:


> As for controlling the spread of COVID, it's probably due more to the strict social distancing measure they had at the time. You'd think that if they were using Ivermectin back then and still using it (and if it was effective), they wouldn't have the big spike earlier this year in March/April?


That is such a croc and you know it. Perhaps you should point out all the flaws to the doctors and scientists around the world that peer reviewed a large portion of these studies? I'm sure they would like to know what they missed.

As I've said, EVERY study has flaws and limitations. So you take the totality of ALL the studies and in the case of Ivermectin it becomes abundantly clear, it works. And if you refuse to believe that great, but its also one of the safest drugs we have so lets treat sick people with it just in case? And lets allow people who don't want these experimental arm stabs to use this means as prophylaxis. Their body their choice. *Edit*- And then maybe we should ask ourselves WHY we aren't being given this choice? Most people would conclude rather quickly it has to do with stopping this rapid vax experiment and shutting down the global vax passports and database collection. A needle in every arm, you can trust us.

Over 300 patients, peer reviewed, P=.002 (very high certainty). Theres a whole lot more of these too. In fact theres over 18,000 patients studied, BGC will say thats not enough. *Theres hardly a drug out there with clearer evidence than this.*

"8/28 Prophylaxis study
Shouman et al., Journal of Clinical and Diagnostic Research, doi:10.7860/JCDR/2020/46795.0000 (Peer Reviewed)
Use of Ivermectin as a Potential Chemoprophylaxis for COVID-19 in Egypt: A Randomised Clinical Trial
Source PDF Share Tweet
PEP trial for asymptomatic close contacts of COVID-19 patients, 203 ivermectin patients and 101 control patients. 7.4% of contacts developed COVID-19 in the ivermectin group vs. 58.4% in the control group, adjusted odds ratio OR 0.087, _p_ < 0.001. NCT04422561. See also [1].

Shouman et al., 8/28/2020, Randomized Controlled Trial, Egypt, Africa, peer-reviewed, 8 authors, dosage 18mg days 1, 3, dose varies depending on weight - 40-60kg: 15mg, 60-80kg: 18mg, >80kg: 24mg.
risk of symptomatic case, 91.3% lower, RR 0.09, _p_ < 0.001, treatment 15 of 203 (7.4%), control 59 of 101 (58.4%), adjusted per study, multivariate.
risk of COVID-19 severe case, 92.9% lower, RR 0.07, _p_ = 0.002, treatment 1 of 203 (0.5%), control 7 of 101 (6.9%), unadjusted.
Effect extraction follows pre-specified rules prioritizing more serious outcomes. For an individual study the most serious outcome may have a smaller number of events and lower statistical signficance, however this provides the strongest evidence for the most serious outcomes when combining the results of many trials.








[1] trialsitenews.com/zagazig-university-randomized-controlled-ivermectin-study-results-confirms-pi-hy..
All 99 studies Meta analysis


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## 5Lgreenback

sags said:


> I am thinking Dr. Sags should take to the airwaves........



Character attacks and slander, right out of pharmas playbook.

All he's doing is relaying the summary findings of studies, and some medical publications to people. A medical teacher is more than qualified to do that.


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> That is such a croc and you know it. Perhaps you should point out all the flaws to the doctors and scientists around the world that peer reviewed a large portion of these studies? I'm sure they would like to know what they missed.


So what exactly is the croc? That the RRT would go into a highly infectious environment without PPE and just Ivermectin? That they trialed it back in 2020, and decided not to use it to prevent the large covid spike this year? Or maybe they did use it, and it didn't prevent the spike? But if that's the case, that would kind of destroy your argument about its effectiveness.

Basically, you can't defend? I point out the flaws and you have no rebuttal. You know a discussion tends to be a give and take. I guess that's why I don't think much of people who just point to what others say because to me, that just indicates that they actually don't know what they're talking about. But try to question their logic and they fall to pieces. I'm not pointing out anything out of the ordinary, just common sense things that jump out to me. Your go-to argument is: it's peer reviewed, don't question it. Which is funny coming from someone who talks about questioning the establishment. Really, if you object to my arguments, feel free to counter, but I don't see you doing that.



5Lgreenback said:


> As I've said, EVERY study has flaws and limitations. So you take the totality of ALL the studies and in the case of Ivermectin it becomes abundantly clear, it works. And if you refuse to believe that great, but its also one of the safest drugs we have so lets treat sick people with it just in case? And lets allow people who don't want these experimental arm stabs to use this means as prophylaxis. Their body their choice.


Well no. The 2 that I posted showed that they don't have any statistical improvement, and they seemed to be the larger ones. The ones that do show some tend to be small sample sized. The obvious gold standard is the RCT with double blind-studies, but they seem to be few and at limited numbers. And like I said before, using meta analysis studies only amplifies the few that may show some positive.

Remind me again, why HCQ isn't used in great abundance in third world countries, or even India for treatment. We've been down this road before. I remember those first studies of HCQ that stated how great it was, but decided to leave out the treated patients who died out of the final tally.

And since Ivermectin is off-patent, there's nothing preventing generic drug companies to fill the void.

Basically, this really seems like HCQ part II because I see the exact same pattern: 
1. It's cheap, big pharma doesn't want you to know it;
2. It only works early and maybe as a prophylactic; and
3. Here are a bunch of studies with low sample size that demonstrate its effectiveness, with few RCT.


----------



## bgc_fan

And to the surprise of no one.








Nearly all COVID deaths in US are now among unvaccinated


Nearly all COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. now are in people who weren’t vaccinated, a staggering demonstration of how effective the shots have been and an indication that deaths per day — now down to under 300 — could be practically zero if everyone eligible got the vaccine.




apnews.com


----------



## Beaver101

^ Except anti-vaxxers ... slogan: Anti-vaxxers United, Strong and Dead. Oh well.


----------



## sags

Lots of stories from people who got the COVID and wished they had been vaccinated. 

No stories of people who got the COVID and said.......gee, I wish I wasn't vaccinated.


----------



## bgc_fan

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Except anti-vaxxers ... slogan: Anti-vaxxers United, Strong and Dead. Oh well.


Too bad it was made political. Overall, US vaccination rates are good, but when you have pockets of the country that have less than 50% first dose, it just leaves opportunity for a US variant to come out. Looking at the map, you can see it pretty much mirrors the election results. Aside from that, with the US opening up, you're going to see many people skip the second dose, because they think they have no reason to take it.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Now all the vaccine 'experts' are coming out with their studies, facts, data, and even theories with all those links, podcasts, and what haves about the dangers of the millions/gazillion of jabs given around the world.
> 
> Kinda late ain't it especially with the screams to "OPEN UP THE ECONOMY, NO MORE LOCKDOWNS, NO MORE RESTRICTIONS, NO MORE SUICIDES, NO MORE MASKS, NO <FILL-IN-THE-BLANK> !!!!?
> 
> Meanwhile, the vaccines remain "voluntary" and there's still the bleach injection option for these guys.


No testing needed for vaccines. They are safe until proven other wise. Anyone that goes against the agenda of gene therapy for the masses is censored. Even Robert Malone the inventor of MRNA says they should not be called vaccines & is being censored regarding the dangers in the experimental gene therapy. @ least if the vaccines kill off a lot of people it will be the sheep that trust in the drug dealers & government


----------



## Beaver101

^ I rather be a live sheep than a dead weasel here ... baa, baa, haa, haa.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ^ I rather be a live sheep than a dead weasel here ... baa, baa, haa, haa.


 I know so many unvaccinated people different age that had covid, and they are just fine. The risk is so much politicized you won’t believe it.
I don’t watch TV, but when ever I turn the car radio on to get some weather, it is non stop vaccines propaganda. People are so brainwashed.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

TELAVIV -- Israel told its citizens on Friday they must again wear masks indoors, 10 days after being allowed to ditch them, amid a sustained surge in coronavirus infections attributed to the highly contagious Delta variant.

The mask requirement had been one of only a few social curbs remaining as Israel's rapid vaccination drive kept cases down.
Some 55 per cent of Israel's 9.3 million population have received both doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. Eligibility was extended to 12- to 15-year-olds last month, but take-up in that age group has been low.

In April, Israel's pandemic response coordinator, Nachman Ash, said Israel could achieve "herd immunity" when 75 per cent of its population were either vaccinated or naturally immune after having contracted COVID-19.

But on Thursday, allowing for the higher contagiousness of the Delta variant, he put that figure at "at least 80 per cent."

Currently around 65 per cent of Israel's population have been vaccinated or have recovered from COVID-19, the health ministry says.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

More and more different consequences emerge.
*Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine linked to rare blood disease - Israeli study*
The Pfizer coronavirus vaccine has been linked to an increased chance of developing thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura (TTP), a rare blood disorder, Israeli researchers said Monday.

TTP is an autoimmune disease that causes blood clots to form in various organs of the body. According to the National Institutes of Health, these clots can limit or block the flow of oxygen-rich blood to key organs like the brain, kidneys and heart, resulting in serious health problems.
*four cases detected in one month compared to two or three cases per year.








Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine linked to rare blood disease - Israeli study


A spokesperson from Shamir Medical Center stressed that the study of the Pfizer coronavirus vaccine's connection to a rare disease should not deter vaccinations.




www.jpost.com




*


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> I know so many unvaccinated people different age that had covid, and they are just fine. The risk is so much politicized you won’t believe it.


 ... of course these folks are fine and not the rest of us because they have become the silent carriers. And by now, you should understand the words "infectious" aka "contagious" aka "social distancing", I hope.



> I don’t watch TV, but when ever I turn the car radio on to get some weather, it is non stop vaccines propaganda. People are so brainwashed.


 ... right and you did get your first shot? Still debating on getting the 2nd dose?


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> More and more different consequences emerge.
> *Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine linked to rare blood disease - Israeli study*
> The Pfizer coronavirus vaccine has been linked to an increased chance of developing thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura (TTP), a rare blood disorder, Israeli researchers said Monday.
> 
> TTP is an autoimmune disease that causes blood clots to form in various organs of the body. According to the National Institutes of Health, these clots can limit or block the flow of oxygen-rich blood to key organs like the brain, kidneys and heart, resulting in serious health problems.
> *four cases detected in one month compared to two or three cases per year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine linked to rare blood disease - Israeli study
> 
> 
> A spokesperson from Shamir Medical Center stressed that the study of the Pfizer coronavirus vaccine's connection to a rare disease should not deter vaccinations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.jpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


 ... perfect. Now Israelis can sue their government for incurring this rare blood disease.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> Still debating on getting the 2nd dose?


 Could not get even if wanted, it’s all Moderna here now. I had Pfizer.
But I am not worried “the longer I wait the better the protection will be after the second dose.”


----------



## :) lonewolf

Beaver101 said:


> ... of course these folks are fine and not the rest of us because they have become the silent carriers. And by now, you should understand the words "infectious" aka "contagious" aka "social distancing", I hope.


Baa Baa I do not know how to think & judge if I am sick ? I need the government to tell me if I am sick. Covid the best miracle cure ever no one dies of the flu or hart attack anymore. Fake tests with well over 90% false positives for a virus some say has not even been isolated yet. How can a regular vaccine be used when the virus can not be isolated ? Follow the money who has money invested in the stocks of the jabs that are being approved ? The experimental jabs that the drug dealers are granted full immunity regardless of the poison they put in are being used on kids that have an almost zero percent chances of dying from Con job.

Doctors will lose their license & are censored if they disagree with dictators. Drugs like hydroxychloroquine that has been used for a lot of years are banned even though proven to work. i_nstead of treating the sick inject everyone with_ dangerous gene therapy. Locking down the healthy, social distancing, wearing masks, lies, not letting doctors be doctors, Gene therapy is causing a lot more death & decay to man then the manufactured virus.

Get your jab give the drug dealers an incentive to make more money by manufacturing viruses, The drug dealers are not in the business of curing anything they in the business of making money from selling drugs.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

:) lonewolf said:


> for a virus some say has not even been isolated yet.


_SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, was isolated in the laboratory and is available for research by the scientific and medical community_.








Labs


COVID-19 resources and guidelines for labs and laboratory workers.




www.cdc.gov


----------



## 5Lgreenback

bgc_fan said:


> So what exactly is the croc? That the RRT would go into a highly infectious environment without PPE and just Ivermectin? That they trialed it back in 2020, and decided not to use it to prevent the large covid spike this year? Or maybe they did use it, and it didn't prevent the spike? But if that's the case, that would kind of destroy your argument about its effectiveness.
> 
> Basically, you can't defend? I point out the flaws and you have no rebuttal. You know a discussion tends to be a give and take. I guess that's why I don't think much of people who just point to what others say because to me, that just indicates that they actually don't know what they're talking about. But try to question their logic and they fall to pieces. I'm not pointing out anything out of the ordinary, just common sense things that jump out to me. Your go-to argument is: it's peer reviewed, don't question it. Which is funny coming from someone who talks about questioning the establishment. Really, if you object to my arguments, feel free to counter, but I don't see you doing that.
> 
> 
> 
> Well no. The 2 that I posted showed that they don't have any statistical improvement, and they seemed to be the larger ones. The ones that do show some tend to be small sample sized. The obvious gold standard is the RCT with double blind-studies, but they seem to be few and at limited numbers. And like I said before, using meta analysis studies only amplifies the few that may show some positive.
> 
> Remind me again, why HCQ isn't used in great abundance in third world countries, or even India for treatment. We've been down this road before. I remember those first studies of HCQ that stated how great it was, but decided to leave out the treated patients who died out of the final tally.
> 
> And since Ivermectin is off-patent, there's nothing preventing generic drug companies to fill the void.
> 
> Basically, this really seems like HCQ part II because I see the exact same pattern:
> 1. It's cheap, big pharma doesn't want you to know it;
> 2. It only works early and maybe as a prophylactic; and
> 3. Here are a bunch of studies with low sample size that demonstrate its effectiveness, with few RCT.


Because you are trying to get things lost in the weeds intentionally, and I'm not going to write out a novel to discuss why this study isn't valid, because its only has 300 patients, and they weren't all wearing the same colour hospital gowns etc etc nonsense.

Yes every study has flaws for the 10th time. But we are in a pandemic, and there 100+ studies showing benefits of Ivermectin, and doctors around the world are saving lives with it, and they have no financial gain from making these statements.

You're waiting for a multi million dollar large scale RCT clinical study, well it will be too late by then (and that seems to be the goal of our trusted establishment), and most folks willing to pay for such a study usually fall into the conflict of interest category. IE big pharma, or some health agency/ university thats under the thumb of big pharma.

Once again, its a very safe drug, so theres no harm in using it. Unless of course you value profits and power over peoples lives.

*NY judge orders hospital to use ivermectin, women recovers.*







*Another New York State Supreme Court Justice Issues Ivermectin Order For 81-Year-Old*


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Edit- Deleted.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Remember the vaccine is "voluntary" but the Covid-virus (and all viruses) are not.


----------



## Beaver101

:) lonewolf said:


> Baa Baa I do not know how to think & judge if I am sick ? I need the government to tell me if I am sick. Covid the best miracle cure ever no one dies of the flu or hart attack anymore. Fake tests with well over 90% false positives for a virus some say has not even been isolated yet. How can a regular vaccine be used when the virus can not be isolated ? Follow the money who has money invested in the stocks of the jabs that are being approved ? The experimental jabs that the drug dealers are granted full immunity regardless of the poison they put in are being used on kids that have an almost zero percent chances of dying from Con job.
> 
> Doctors will lose their license & are censored if they disagree with dictators. Drugs like hydroxychloroquine that has been used for a lot of years are banned even though proven to work. i_nstead of treating the sick inject everyone with_ dangerous gene therapy. Locking down the healthy, social distancing, wearing masks, lies, not letting doctors be doctors, Gene therapy is causing a lot more death & decay to man then the manufactured virus.
> 
> Get your jab give the drug dealers an incentive to make more money by manufacturing viruses, The drug dealers are not in the business of curing anything they in the business of making money from selling drugs.


 ... what a mouth-troll-full.


----------



## sags

My first shot was Pfizer in April and I felt nothing afterwards. I didn't even feel the jab at the time. Absolutely nothing.

The second jab was Moderna yesterday, and had an aching arm starting yesterday and a headache and sore muscles. A little sore in the injection area and arm today.

They are slight discomforts and well tolerated, but it is different this time for sure. Maybe because it is a second dose........or maybe because it is Moderna ?

Possibly because of the vaccinator too. First time........in and out in a second. Second time I felt the needle and she moved it around and left it in for about 5 seconds. At the time I thought it was like when I get an IV put in and they have to muck around a bit to get it in right. As I got older I suddenly became harder to set an IV in place or get a blood sample. They say my veins run away when they see a needle headed their way.........LOL.

I wonder if maybe there are different spots to do the jab and it makes a difference.

They asked more questions about allergies or problems in the past with any CT scans or diagnostics using a dye. You can't get a Moderna shot with those.

Everyone at the clinic was making a point of saying there was no difference from Pfizer and Moderna, so it sounded like that is part of the drill.

Don't know but happy to be fully vaccinated.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> My first shot was Pfizer in April and I felt nothing afterwards. I didn't even feel the jab at the time. Absolutely nothing.
> 
> The second jab was Moderna yesterday, and had an aching arm starting yesterday and a headache and sore muscles. A little sore in the injection area and arm today.
> 
> They are slight discomforts and well tolerated, but it is different this time for sure. Maybe because it is a second dose........or maybe because it is Moderna ?


 Why on earth would anyone want to mix the vaccines? Are you ready that desperate for the vaccine? Somehow you lived without the vaccine for a year or more. 
People are so brainwashed.


----------



## like_to_retire

Ukrainiandude said:


> Why on earth would anyone want to mix the vaccines?


Does it matter what gas station you use to fill your car up or do we have to go to the exact same company every time? That's about how much different these vaccines are. It matters not.

One dose has been found to not provide enough protection, so two are required somewhere between 3 and 16 weeks.

ltr


----------



## Spudd

5Lgreenback said:


> Once again, its a very safe drug, so theres no harm in using it. Unless of course you value profits and power over peoples lives.


OK, you've convinced me, Ivermectin works to treat Covid. Now will you go get the AstraZeneca jab please, since you are afraid of the mRNA ones?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

like_to_retire said:


> Does it matter what gas station you use to fill your car up or do we have to go to the exact same company every time? That's about how much different these vaccines are. It matters not.


Please don’t spread misinformation here.
This is an abstract from the manufacturer’s manual.

*There are no data available on the interchangeability of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine with other COVID-19 vaccines to complete the vaccination series. Individuals who have received one dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine should receive a second dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine to complete the vaccination series.*


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> My first shot was Pfizer in April and I felt nothing afterwards. I didn't even feel the jab at the time. Absolutely nothing.
> 
> The second jab was Moderna yesterday, and had an aching arm starting yesterday and a headache and sore muscles. A little sore in the injection area and arm today.


Second doze with mRNA has more side effects, this is well documented.

It'll be interesting when get mRNA after getting AZ last time.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> Second doze with mRNA has more side effects, this is well documented.


 This is the reason I am not desperate for the second shot. Especially since Pfizer is not available, everything is Moderna here now. 
I did sign up for the Pfizer waiting list but still will decide if I want all those side effects.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> This is the reason I am not desperate for the second shot. Especially since Pfizer is not available, everything is Moderna here now.
> I did sign up for the Pfizer waiting list but still will decide if I want all those side effects.


Why does it matter Pfizer?
The risk of side effects is less than the risk from COVID, also part of it is community protection.
Remember kids can't get vaccinated, and they're seeing some serious side effects in teens.


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> Because you are trying to get things lost in the weeds intentionally, and I'm not going to write out a novel to discuss why this study isn't valid, because its only has 300 patients, and they weren't all wearing the same colour hospital gowns etc etc nonsense.


I'm not asking you for anything hard. Just disprove what I point out. A study showing that there's no statistical difference is not getting lost in the weeds. It's saying that it doesn't make a difference.
Pointing out that people going into a hot zone will wear PPE for protection is probably more of a factor to prevent infection than taking a does of Ivermectin as a prophylactic, isn't a minor detail.

I love that you want to put all this weight on these studies that added up together maybe equate to 1000 people or so, yet discount the Pfizer trial that uses 43k people.



5Lgreenback said:


> You're waiting for a multi million dollar large scale RCT clinical study, well it will be too late by then (and that seems to be the goal of our trusted establishment), and most folks willing to pay for such a study usually fall into the conflict of interest category. IE big pharma, or some health agency/ university thats under the thumb of big pharma.


You know who has money for that sort of thing? Governments. Hence, it is useful to wait for some results: Ivermectin to be investigated as a possible treatment for COVID-19 in Oxford’s PRINCIPLE trial | University of Oxford.

People complaining that the vaccines are being used on an emergency use basis, but why not Ivermectin always leave out the fact that Pfizer actually went through a phase 3 clinical trial involving 43k people, whereas for these alternative treatments, at best we're talking about the scale of a phase 1 trial.

Edit: I just realized this is all off-topic. Do you have any arguments about the safety of the vaccine and why you don't want it?


----------



## Spudd

MrMatt said:


> Second doze with mRNA has more side effects, this is well documented.
> 
> It'll be interesting when get mRNA after getting AZ last time.


Both me and my husband felt basically nothing after getting Pfizer for our 2nd shots (AZ for first knocked us on our butts for a day each).


----------



## 5Lgreenback

‎Trish Wood is Critical: mRNA INVENTOR ROBERT MALONE BACKS UP PROF. BYRAM BRIDLE on Apple Podcasts


‎Show Trish Wood is Critical, Ep mRNA INVENTOR ROBERT MALONE BACKS UP PROF. BYRAM BRIDLE - Jun 20, 2021



podcasts.apple.com





"In an explosive interview, impeccably credentialed Malone and Bridle go after critics trying to silence anyone who raises issues about vaccine safety. They explore spike proteins, dosing errors, the coercion of children, the attack on podcaster Bret Weinstein, and the absence of risk-benefit ratios — the bedrock of ethical medicine. Also on the episode: Canadian docs Donald Welsh and Jean Marc Benoit who are collecting information and boldly speaking out."


A good listen. Canadian Dr Bridle is very well spoken. All the doctors are very diplomatic and careful with their words in this podcast. But its clear, they are seeing global health agencies and medical journals acting very suspiciously. Just like many other doctors around the world are blowing the whistle on.

Canadian Covid Care Alliance has been bombarded with patients reaching out to them reporting adverse side effects from the jabs, and the patients doctors refusing to report it. Hearing similar reports around the world. What this does of course is is skews the data with which we are supposed to be making policies and decisions from

At the VERY least I would say now that most high risk people have been vaxxed, we should slow down or pause this propaganda/ unethical campaign of coercion and actually access and hash out the science, especially when it come to children.

Meanwhile, Our trustworthy Trudeau has moved the goal posts. No longer is it about how many cases Canada has, or how many people have built immunity (naturally or through vax) or how many people are at risk, its strictly how many Canadians get the jabs. entered into this new human rights and freedoms violating global database. 

Suspicious? Nah, we can trust em.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> Both me and my husband felt basically nothing after getting Pfizer for our 2nd shots (AZ for first knocked us on our butts for a day each).



My GF had minor adverse reaction. One week after 2nd does she can't tolerate/ digest certain foods any more. Relatively minor yes, but we haven't been able to resolve the issue 4 months later.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

bgc_fan said:


> I'm not asking you for anything hard. Just disprove what I point out. A study showing that there's no statistical difference is not getting lost in the weeds. It's saying that it doesn't make a difference.
> Pointing out that people going into a hot zone will wear PPE for protection is probably more of a factor to prevent infection than taking a does of Ivermectin as a prophylactic, isn't a minor detail.
> 
> I love that you want to put all this weight on these studies that added up together maybe equate to 1000 people or so, yet discount the Pfizer trial that uses 43k people.
> 
> 
> 
> You know who has money for that sort of thing? Governments. Hence, it is useful to wait for some results: Ivermectin to be investigated as a possible treatment for COVID-19 in Oxford’s PRINCIPLE trial | University of Oxford.
> 
> People complaining that the vaccines are being used on an emergency use basis, but why not Ivermectin always leave out the fact that Pfizer actually went through a phase 3 clinical trial involving 43k people, whereas for these alternative treatments, at best we're talking about the scale of a phase 1 trial.
> 
> Edit: I just realized this is all off-topic. Do you have any arguments about the safety of the vaccine and why you don't want it?


I believe the study you are talking about is for frontline health care workers in Argentina? Some using Ivermectin preventively, and some not, BUT ALL WOULD BE WEARING PPE. The workers in the ivermectin vs nothing /placebo did significantly better. I don't have time to dig up the study numbers again, but I believe it was around Ivermectin 0-1 cases of symptomatic covid, vs 50+ in the placebo group getting symptomatic covid.

Edit heres a quote from the study:

The Results
The Argentinian study team reported that the study data revealed that of the participants in the control group (e.g.* not taking the study drug combination) 58% of the participants were infected with COVID-19 during the duration of the trial.* The study team reported no contagions were recorded in the carrageenan and ivermectin arm, showcasing the compounds’ virucidal effects can potentially protect against COVID-19.
The study’s primary endpoint in a 30 day time period was “Reduction in contagion” for health personnel. The study team established in the protocol that the average desertion worldwide was established at 27%. *The study team established that the aim would be to “reduce dramatically” and assuming these claims are factual the results are striking. Out of 788 self-administered from the intervention arm, NOT ONE PERSON FELL ILL to SARS-CoV-2.
The team also reported that “both molecules accumulate in the salivary glands, so they have the potential to prevent viral spread by asymptomatic patients by inactivating the viral particles in the saliva.”*

I have come across the clinical trail you mentioned for the study of Ivermectin. I don't hold out much hope for it, I don't believe they are studying the use of *prophylaxis iverctin (really need to ask why??)*, and its fumed by Bill Gates.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> Why does it matter Pfizer?
> The risk of side effects is less than the risk from COVID, also part of it is community protection.
> Remember kids can't get vaccinated, and they're seeing some serious side effects in teens.


 Because Pfizer was my first shot, and manual clearly states that second shot must be Pfizer as well.
I am not so worried about covid plus one dose should get some mitigation of covid clinical signs.
I will wait for Pfizer and decide if I want it at all, as more and more evidence emerge daily. The longer I wait the more informed decision I can make.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Because Pfizer was my first shot, and manual clearly states that second shot must be Pfizer as well.
> I am not so worried about covid plus one dose should get some mitigation of covid clinical signs.
> I will wait for Pfizer and decide if I want it at all, as more and more evidence emerge daily. The longer I wait the more informed decision I can make.


"The Manual" ? 

Sorry "the Manual" as written by Health Canada, who is the authority for vaccines in Canada, says the second shot can be Pfizer of Moderna.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> Why does it matter Pfizer?
> The risk of side effects is less than the risk from COVID, also part of it is community protection.
> Remember kids can't get vaccinated, and they're seeing some serious side effects in teens.


They are vaccinating kids down at the Western Fair now. The vaccinator I got told me she was in the kid's section and there was nobody there so she came over to the adult side to help out. From what I have read, the kids are getting only Pfizer.

If your kids need it........check it out. Our 12 year old grandson got his first vaccination a week ago in Woodstock .


----------



## sags

My doctor has a Masters degree in Pharmacology and she said the Moderna is actually a stronger vaccine and offers better protection. She said it has an increase in something something. She knows a lot more about it than I do. Her husband is also an ER doctor........so I think they know their stuff.

I trusted doctors with my life through 3 heart surgeries, 2 appendectimies (the second a long and serious surgery) and replacing my eye lens due to cataracts, and other surgeries and treatments.............and they haven't let me down yet.

I think I will stick with them rather than some fake doctor on the internet.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> "The Manual" ?
> 
> Sorry "the Manual" as written by Health Canada, who is the authority for vaccines in Canada, says the second shot can be Pfizer of Moderna.


Here is a manufacturer manual. RTFM. 


https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download


*There are no data available on the interchangeability of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine with other COVID-19 vaccines to complete the vaccination series. Individuals who have received one dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine should receive a second dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine to complete the vaccination series.*

I wouldn’t trust woodoo science advices from third parties.


----------



## sags

The other day I noticed a lump under my armpit.

After reading Dr. Google........I was convinced I was a goner from lymph node cancer.

Went to see the doc.......just a small cyst she says. Not big enough to do anything with. Come back if it gets bigger.

Is it my lymph nodes and could it be cancer doc ? She laughed and said not a chance and stop looking stuff up on Google.

I think people should get their covid information from the health authorities and trusted sources and forget about the oddball "experts" on Google.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> Moderna is actually a stronger vaccine and offers better protection


If I had Moderna as the first shot, I would have stick with Moderna for the second.
*There are no data available on the interchangeability of the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine with other COVID-19 vaccines to complete the vaccination series. Individuals who have received one dose of the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine should receive a second dose of the Moderna COVID- 19 Vaccine to complete the vaccination series.*


https://www.fda.gov/media/144637/download



Just RTFM.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> She laughed and said not a chance and stop looking stuff up on Google.


 Take everything with the grain of salt 
Why Getting Medically *Misdiagnosed* Is More Common Than You *May* Think. In the United States, 12 million people are affected by medical diagnostic errors each year. An estimated 40,000 to 80,000 people die annually from complications from these *misdiagnoses*.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

sags said:


> The other day I noticed a lump under my armpit.
> 
> After reading Dr. Google........I was convinced I was a goner from lymph node cancer.
> 
> Went to see the doc.......just a small cyst she says. Not big enough to do anything with. Come back if it gets bigger.
> 
> Is it my lymph nodes and could it be cancer doc ? She laughed and said not a chance and stop looking stuff up on Google.
> 
> I think people should get their covid information from the health authorities and trusted sources and forget about the oddball "experts" on Google.



The same health authorities that threatened doctors with their careers or jail time if they try to save the lives of those who contract covid by treating them early?


----------



## sags

Medical associations sanction doctors who spread false information and quack cures............and that is a good thing.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Google Pfizer criminal record. Pfizer makes Ted Bundy look like a saint. Pfizer has admitted to bribing doctors & government officials in the past. Health Canada do you really trust them ? Send Tam back to the corrupt WHO. Gates with his investments in politics, technology, media & monopoly on world health.


----------



## sags

So then stay at home for the rest of your life, because I doubtt vaccinated people are going to mix with un-vaccinated people in restaurants and gatherings and businesses will have to insist on proof of vaccination or lose customers.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> So then stay at home for the rest of your life, because I doubtt vaccinated people are going to mix with un-vaccinated people in restaurants and gatherings and businesses will have to insist on proof of vaccination or lose customers.


 Why? If you are vaccinated you are protected (right?). Why would you care if restaurant customers are vaccinated?


----------



## sags

I don't want someone swarming with COVID cooties anywhere near me. They might overwhelm the vaccine.

Remember the Alamo.......even the best and strong can get overrun. Vaccinate to Victory !


----------



## :) lonewolf

sags said:


> Medical associations sanction doctors who spread false information and quack cures............and that is a good thing.


 No independent thinking. Trust in government, deprive your brain of oxygen put on your mask which works as well as trying to stop a fart by wearing under wear. The market is more efficient then in your face in your wallet Nazi Dictators. We need protection from the doctors that follow orders from the dictators.


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> I believe the study you are talking about is for frontline health care workers in Argentina?


Nope, it was about the idea that India was using Ivermectin and that was why they didn't have a large first wave.



5Lgreenback said:


> I have come across the clinical trail you mentioned for the study of Ivermectin. I don't hold out much hope for it, I don't believe they are studying the use of *prophylaxis iverctin (really need to ask why??)*, and its fumed by Bill Gates.


Ah yes, Bill Gates, the default boogeyman for conspiracy theories along with George Soros.



5Lgreenback said:


> The study team established that the aim would be to “reduce dramatically” and *assuming* these claims are factual the results are striking.


I think that waiting for the study to actually get published to see more details will be useful. Also, not a RCT, but an observational study.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Ukrainiandude said:


> Why? If you are vaccinated you are protected (right?). Why would you care if restaurant customers are vaccinated?



Exactly. This has been an incredibly effective campaign to needlessly pit people against each other.

Lots of evidence that many of us have developed anti-bodies to covid-19 without even realizing it. I believe there was a UBC study showing 60% of BC (or at least those in greater vancouver) may have antibodies already a few months back, despite not getting and symptoms of covid.

These people are likely to have robust immunity and should not need the shots, but that doesn't bode well for the agenda of a needle in every arm. Yes, some people have tested positive twice for covid-19, but that is more likely to be related to false positives in our questionable PCR testing.

People who contracted sarscov1 are showing good levels of immunity 17 years later.


----------



## :) lonewolf

sags said:


> I don't want someone swarming with COVID cooties anywhere near me. They might overwhelm the vaccine.
> 
> Remember the Alamo.......even the best and strong can get overrun. Vaccinate to Victory !


 I do not want to be flying in a plane with pilots vaccinated as they are @ higher risk of blood clots. Google 4 pilots died from blood clots British airways. The vaccinated are now making the highways unsafe. The inventor of the Moderna vaccine has been censored I think it was on face book when he said shedding was real. Since the vaccinated did not trust in their immune system the odds are high the vaccinated will be the ones to avoid. Who knows what is going to happen to their immune system.


----------



## :) lonewolf

5Lgreenback said:


> People who contracted sarscov1 are showing good levels of immunity 17 years later.


Michael Yeadon former VP of Phizer around May of this year said the virus has only changed POINT 3% ( 00.3%) from the original. Sarcov1 has changed 20% & people were still immune. Why all the fear talk with scariants & needing new vaccines to protect from the scariants.

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me day after day for the last year shame on me.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> They might overwhelm the vaccine.


 This is an absurd statement.


----------



## sags

What is absurd is believing people who are vaccinated won't care who surrounds them.

A friend owns a Chinese restaurant with a large dining room and nobody was in it for the past year, even when it was partially open.

She says all their business is takeout and pickup.......and they will open the dining room to only vaccinated people when able.

Informed people are wary now, and the advice is for even fully vaccinated people to wear a mask due to the Delta virus spread.


----------



## sags

Ukrainiandude said:


> This is an absurd statement.


General Custer thought it was okay too. Follow me boys, it is perfectly safe and there is nothing to worry about.

Get fully vaccinated, wear a mask, and avoid the un-vaccinated !


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> If I had Moderna as the first shot, I would have stick with Moderna for the second.
> *There are no data available on the interchangeability of the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine with other COVID-19 vaccines to complete the vaccination series. Individuals who have received one dose of the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine should receive a second dose of the Moderna COVID- 19 Vaccine to complete the vaccination series.*
> 
> 
> https://www.fda.gov/media/144637/download
> 
> 
> 
> Just RTFM.


That's not "The Manual" it is a US Fact sheet.

I'm not saying that the US approvals aren't valid.

I am saying that using 2 different vaccines is approved by Health Canada.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> They are vaccinating kids down at the Western Fair now. The vaccinator I got told me she was in the kid's section and there was nobody there so she came over to the adult side to help out. From what I have read, the kids are getting only Pfizer.
> 
> If your kids need it........check it out. Our 12 year old grandson got his first vaccination a week ago in Woodstock .


It's only for 12+ and they are documenting side effects. Still nothing approved for kids


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> they will open the dining room to only vaccinated people when able.


 First how they are going to implement (hire another person to check for non existent covid IDs) and enforce (call cops if unvaccinated people refuse to leave, will be cops bother with this) this. 
Second there will be plenty of places that would not care if customers are vaccinated, as long as there are customers.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> Get fully vaccinated, wear a mask


 What is the point of getting vaccinated in the first place?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> That's not "The Manual" it is a US Fact sheet.


 Same thing, different wording.
the Manual=FACT SHEET FOR HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS ADMINISTERING VACCINE (VACCINATION PROVIDERS).


----------



## :) lonewolf

sags said:


> General Custer thought it was okay too. Follow me boys, it is perfectly safe and there is nothing to worry about.
> 
> Get fully vaccinated, wear a mask, and avoid the un-vaccinated !
> 
> View attachment 21823


So where does it end ? Having to get a monthly, weekly, daily jab, Your kids are not vaccinated so you can not leave the house since they you might be a carrier . To combat fake vaccine passports you need to be micro chipped & are not allowed any movement unless your a Nazi order follower. Those that are not vaccinated are public safety risk & need to be put in internment camps. CO2 is to high so vaccines can be used to depopulate the earth. Nuremburg laws are being broken requiring proof of experimental vaccines.

Was not that long ago that those that spoke of vaccine passports were conspiracy theorists.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Seems like common sense? So the question is WHY did our health agencies give us guidelines to let people suffer and die alone? In the first few weeks you could maybe blame panic and lack of data/ knowledge, but we have been beyond that point for over a year now. Incompetence cannot explain this.


----------



## sags

There used to be a lot more anti-vaxxer "experts" around but they might have died from COVID.


----------



## sags

The common conspiracy that "the internet" scrubbed all copies of media relating to cures or treatments is ridiculous on it's premise.

It is impossible to remove all traces from the internet. People post and somebody downloads it and even if removed.....they still got it.

If the internet is being cleansed of all references to the information, why are these guys websites and youtube videos still up and running ?

I don't know if these guys are good doctors, bad doctors., or doctors at all.......but they appear to primarily make up their own facts.

Why do they do it, some may ask, to which the answer is often ..........follow the money.


----------



## :) lonewolf

follow the money


sags said:


> Why do they do it, some may ask, to which the answer is often ..........follow the money.


Sags you nailed it follow the money

The media, Poli TICKS are saying look here do not look there. Look here @ the science do not look there they are conspiracy theorists.

Forget follow the science instead follow the money. Very few scientist, doctors & especially poly TICKS who are attracted to money like flies to cow patties are not going to bite off the hand that feeds them.

Just call everyone conspiracy nut jobs that goes against the agenda & no questions need to be answered.

investigate Gates & Schwab & they will find they sold stocks just before the Corona crash last year


----------



## Spudd

5Lgreenback said:


> Seems like common sense? So the question is WHY did our health agencies give us guidelines to let people suffer and die alone? In the first few weeks you could maybe blame panic and lack of data/ knowledge, but we have been beyond that point for over a year now. Incompetence cannot explain this.


If you think posting a 20 minute video with no summary of the content will make people watch that video, you are mistaken. I can't address your comment since I don't know the context it is based upon.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> What is the point of getting vaccinated in the first place?


 ... so that you'll be able to ask this question here instead of lying in the hospital wondering 'what happened? how did I end up here", etc. 

Seriously Repeating: Vaccination is not a silver bullet.


----------



## Spudd

Vaccination reduces the chance of getting the disease, and VASTLY reduces the chance of hospitalization or death.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> First how they are going to implement (hire another person to check for non existent covid IDs) and enforce (call cops if unvaccinated people refuse to leave, will be cops bother with this) this.
> Second there will be plenty of places that would not care if customers are vaccinated, as long as there are customers.


 ... I believe private establishments reserve the right as to who they want to serve or not as long as they work within the boundaries of the law. Example, mask wearing. 

As for vaccinations- that might be abit tricky but I'm sure there'll be a precedent. Just look at the Springsteen's concert. No vaccination - no welcome.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> My first shot was Pfizer in April and I felt nothing afterwards. I didn't even feel the jab at the time. Absolutely nothing.
> 
> The second jab was Moderna yesterday, and had an aching arm starting yesterday and a headache and sore muscles. A little sore in the injection area and arm today.
> 
> They are slight discomforts and well tolerated, but it is different this time for sure. Maybe because it is a second dose........or maybe because it is Moderna ?
> 
> Possibly because of the vaccinator too. First time........in and out in a second. Second time I felt the needle and she moved it around and left it in for about 5 seconds. At the time I thought it was like when I get an IV put in and they have to muck around a bit to get it in right. As I got older I suddenly became harder to set an IV in place or get a blood sample. They say my veins run away when they see a needle headed their way.........LOL.
> 
> I wonder if maybe there are different spots to do the jab and it makes a difference.
> 
> *They asked more questions about allergies or problems in the past with any CT scans or diagnostics using a dye. You can't get a Moderna shot with those.*
> 
> Everyone at the clinic was making a point of saying there was no difference from Pfizer and Moderna, so it sounded like that is part of the drill.
> 
> Don't know but happy to be fully vaccinated.


 ... why can't you get a Moderna shot if you had a CT scan (most require a dye injection)? I'm really curious about this.


----------



## Spudd

Beaver101 said:


> ... why can't you get a Moderna shot if you had a CT scan (most require a dye injection)? I'm really curious about this.


I think he means you can't if you were allergic to the dye injection. Probably the dye injection and the Moderna use some base ingredient that people can be allergic to.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Same thing, different wording.
> the Manual=FACT SHEET FOR HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS ADMINISTERING VACCINE (VACCINATION PROVIDERS).


No, but in any case this is the US version, not the Canadian version.
I understand you are Ukranian, perhaps you aren't aware that Canada and the US are different countries?


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... I believe private establishments reserve the right as to who they want to serve or not as long as they work within the boundaries of the law. Example, mask wearing.


Yes, if you have a reason you don't need to wear a mask. You should not be banned from an establishment for exercising constitutional rights. 
But this is always a balance. 
It's a tricky one, should you have to take on the risk of death for the greater good?
Is it reasonable to demand potentially lethal medical procedures to move freely in society?

Lets throw a wrench in there and ask that question if it affects a particular race of gender at a higher rate?
Should we require a medical procedure that kills 1 in 100k women, but only 1 in 1M men? (ie AZ vaccination blood clot risk reported at one time before they got better data, yes I know the real risk is understood to be far less.)

What about a procedure that kills 1 in 10k of a particular group, but 1 in 1M of the general population?

What about procedures that only harm that group, instead of killing them outright.

Sorry, mandatory medical procedures are and should be off limits in all but the most extreme cases.

Also the rules for government monopolies, like health care, should be different and even more respectful of individual rights.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> No, but in any case this is the US version, not the Canadian version.
> I understand you are Ukranian, perhaps you aren't aware that Canada and the US are different countries?


Here’s Canadian version of the manual.
PRODUCT MONOGRAPH
INCLUDING PATIENT MEDICATION INFORMATION
There are no data available on the interchangeability of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine with other COVID-19 vaccines to complete the vaccination series. Individuals who have received one dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine should receive a second dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine to complete the vaccination series.


https://covid-vaccine.canada.ca/info/pdf/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-pm1-en.pdf



I don’t understand why people have to be so obstinate and not RTFM.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Here’s Canadian version of the manual.
> PRODUCT MONOGRAPH
> INCLUDING PATIENT MEDICATION INFORMATION
> There are no data available on the interchangeability of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine with other COVID-19 vaccines to complete the vaccination series. Individuals who have received one dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine should receive a second dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine to complete the vaccination series.
> 
> 
> https://covid-vaccine.canada.ca/info/pdf/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-pm1-en.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t understand why people have to be so obstinate and not RTFM.


"There are no data available on the interchangeability of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine with other COVID-19 vaccines to complete the vaccination series." << this statement is not true.

The data is there, and the usage has been approved by the relevant authorities




__





Mixing vaccine types







www.fraserhealth.ca





I don't understand why you have to be so obstinate.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> The data is there


 So you are telling me that information from unknown private health care provider‘s website trumps information from canada.ca website?


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> So you are telling me that information from unknown private health care provider‘s website trumps information from canada.ca website?


No, I'm telling you that the specific file you referenced on canada.ca has some outdated information.

I didn't information from some "unknown private health care providers website"
I simply chose a Canadian Healthy authority, in fact one of the larger ones who happens to do a lot of vaccine work, and happens to provide very clear end user information.

But since you want canada.ca stuff.




__





Archive 22: Recommendations on the use of COVID-19 vaccines [2021-10-22] - Canada.ca


Recommendations on the use of authorized COVID-19 vaccine(s) as they are approved for use in Canada.




www.canada.ca





Specific to interchangability, IV.4.3 Interchangeability




__





Archive 22: Recommendations on the use of COVID-19 vaccines [2021-10-22] - Canada.ca


Recommendations on the use of authorized COVID-19 vaccine(s) as they are approved for use in Canada.




www.canada.ca




The above document is the most recent document that I'm aware of that addresses this.

So there, the same information, just not in the pretty version that Fraser Health released.
Now I'm sure you'll cycle back to something dismissing the authority of Health Canada.

I get it, you're just looking for excuses. That's fine, leave the vaccine for those of us who want it. Just try not to get yourself sick and waste resources because you didn't want to get vaccinated.


----------



## kcowan

We have switched to single layer disposable masks since we were totally immune in April. We used our double layer plus paper filter masks on the plane ride from PV to Seattle.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> If you think posting a 20 minute video with no summary of the content will make people watch that video, you are mistaken. I can't address your comment since I don't know the context it is based upon.



Its a video of a well published doctor on covid-19 and in particular the treatment of covid-19. He's asking the Texas senate committee why there has been no official policies on treating covid 19 early, despite knowing that treating early is the key to saving lives. IE: Why do we give a patient a positive covid diagnoses and send people home with no medications or information and tell them not to come back until its too late? 

It appears to be the perfect recipe to increase the rates of hospitalizations and deaths. 

And my additional question is why would this doctor and many others like him who chose to save lives and find treatments, not be all over the mainstream media as heroes or leaders in the fight against covid? Instead they are censored. It seems everything must revolve around the vaxxes and associated database at al costs. Anybody who questions this is a conspiracy nut.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Early in the COVID-19 pandemic, scientists identified how SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, gets inside cells to cause infection. All current COVID-19 vaccines and antibody-based therapeutics were designed to disrupt this route into cells, which requires a receptor called ACE2.*

Now, researchers at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis have found that a single mutation gives SARS-CoV-2 the ability to enter cells through another route – one that does not require ACE2. *The ability to use an alternative entry pathway opens up the possibility of evading COVID-19 antibodies or vaccines, but the researchers did not find evidence of such evasion.* However, the discovery does show that the virus can change in unexpected ways and find new ways to cause infection. The study is published June 23 in Cell Reports.


----------



## Spudd

5Lgreenback said:


> Its a video of a well published doctor on covid-19 and in particular the treatment of covid-19. He's asking the Texas senate committee why there has been no official policies on treating covid 19 early, despite knowing that treating early is the key to saving lives. IE: Why do we give a patient a positive covid diagnoses and send people home with no medications or information and tell them not to come back until its too late?
> 
> It appears to be the perfect recipe to increase the rates of hospitalizations and deaths.
> 
> And my additional question is why would this doctor and many others like him who chose to save lives and find treatments, not be all over the mainstream media as heroes or leaders in the fight against covid? Instead they are censored. It seems everything must revolve around the vaxxes and associated database at al costs. Anybody who questions this is a conspiracy nut.


That's a valid question, but it doesn't eliminate the question of vaccination. It's clearly better to vaccinate and therefore avoid getting sick in the first place, than it is to do early treatments once sick. 

I don't know about you but I would much rather avoid getting sick than get sick.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Oh don't


Spudd said:


> That's a valid question, but it doesn't eliminate the question of vaccination. It's clearly better to vaccinate and therefore avoid getting sick in the first place, than it is to do early treatments once sick.
> 
> I don't know about you but I would much rather avoid getting sick than get sick.


I agree, thats why I'm for the use of prophylactic ivermectin. But our agencies and institutions refuse to study that part of the drug. Despite evidence of this being very effective, maybe even more effective than using it to treat covid-19.

Im sure that just another coincidence. We can trust them.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Early in the COVID-19 pandemic, scientists identified how SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, gets inside cells to cause infection. All current COVID-19 vaccines and antibody-based therapeutics were designed to disrupt this route into cells, which requires a receptor called ACE2.*
> 
> Now, researchers at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis have found that a single mutation gives SARS-CoV-2 the ability to enter cells through another route – one that does not require ACE2. *The ability to use an alternative entry pathway opens up the possibility of evading COVID-19 antibodies or vaccines, but the researchers did not find evidence of such evasion.* However, the discovery does show that the virus can change in unexpected ways and find new ways to cause infection. The study is published June 23 in Cell Reports.


Don't worry, they will be making new boosters and vaccines to "fix" every new problem they find for decades to come.

If only there was a cheap and effective alternative we could use, that didn't come with freedom restrictions/ loss of jobs for refusing to it. Oh wait.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Early in the COVID-19 pandemic, scientists identified how SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, gets inside cells to cause infection. All current COVID-19 vaccines and antibody-based therapeutics were designed to disrupt this route into cells, which requires a receptor called ACE2.*
> 
> Now, researchers at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis have found that a single mutation gives SARS-CoV-2 the ability to enter cells through another route – one that does not require ACE2. *The ability to use an alternative entry pathway opens up the possibility of evading COVID-19 antibodies or vaccines, but the researchers did not find evidence of such evasion.* However, the discovery does show that the virus can change in unexpected ways and find new ways to cause infection. The study is published June 23 in Cell Reports.


Which is why we'll need boosters... which we knew all along.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Beaver101 said:


> ... I believe private establishments reserve the right as to who they want to serve or not as long as they work within the boundaries of the law. Example, mask wearing.
> 
> As for vaccinations- that might be abit tricky but I'm sure there'll be a precedent. Just look at the Springsteen's concert. No vaccination - no welcome.


Like the Nazis & their eugenics try to make a superior human. Inject everyone with experimental cocktails who cares if billions die. Warning no mask no service, next month no vaccine no service, next month no embedded microchip no service, next month no top up vaccine no service,

It was not that long ago they segregated black people how did that work ? Beaver the Nazi path you want to lead us down will lead to gas chambers for those that are different or do not conform to the dictators. They have recently found mass graves sites of natives have you not learned anything from the find ?


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Some doctor "quacks" put together and epidemiologic analysis on countries using Ivermectin, for covid cases and death rates. This is obviously at population scale and the charts are quite revealing.





__





Epidemiologic analyses on Ivermectin in COVID-19 - FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance


The MATH+ Hospital Treatment Protocol for Covid-19 is a physiologic-based combination treatment regimen created by leaders in critical care medicine.




covid19criticalcare.com





If this was truly about peoples health/ saving lives and getting back to "normal", the only questions should what dose do we need to prevent the spread of covid? And what dose do we need to treat people once they contract covid.

The next step should be an investigation into the crimes against humanity. Followed by how are we going to rebuild our institutions/ government so we can actually trust them again?


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Just out, peer reviewed study of the vax risk/ benefit ratio.

https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/va...9-00693-v2.pdf

As one doctor summarized it : "To prevent 3 deaths in obese and sick baby boomers, we are killing 2 young healthy people"

For some reason this study never made it through the corrupt mainstream news feeds. Coincidence, I'm sure.

Meanwhile Canada just fired another surgeon from the College of Medicine for voicing concerns about vaxing children. Another hero lost to the tyranny.

US government using vax rates for herd immunity is nonsense (and so is Canada):

https://trialsitenews.com/u-s-federa...herd-immunity/

Also, hopefully everyone here can see the extreme conflicts of interest in the link below? This is how our institutions are structured almost everywhere, and these people are controlling the narrative and "science" that the majority of us think to be the truth.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1409509557311881219
Folks, get vaxxed or don't. But for the love of god please realize that we are getting gamed here. They've got the narrative controlled so tightly I'm convinced most people will believe clouds are made of marshmallows if the main stream "experts" all agreed to it.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Finally a doctor brave enough to try and debate Dr. Kory on the use of Ivermectin, the evidence of its efficacy and flaws in the corrupted drug approval system. 

"*Out of 60 randomized clinical trials, 59 showed benefits, and 1 didn't. The one study happened to be funded by 4 large pharmaceutical companies, in which that declared they had no conflicts of interest? Only one study got published in large american medical journals, guess which one?"*

If no one is open to the fact that our systems and institutions have been corrupted by this point, I don't think theres much hope for us.


----------



## Spudd

5Lgreenback said:


> Just out, peer reviewed study of the vax risk/ benefit ratio.
> 
> https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/va...9-00693-v2.pdf
> 
> As one doctor summarized it : "To prevent 3 deaths in obese and sick baby boomers, we are killing 2 young healthy people"
> 
> For some reason this study never made it through the corrupt mainstream news feeds. Coincidence, I'm sure.
> 
> Meanwhile Canada just fired another surgeon from the College of Medicine for voicing concerns about vaxing children. Another hero lost to the tyranny.
> 
> US government using vax rates for herd immunity is nonsense (and so is Canada):
> 
> https://trialsitenews.com/u-s-federa...herd-immunity/
> 
> Also, hopefully everyone here can see the extreme conflicts of interest in the link below? This is how our institutions are structured almost everywhere, and these people are controlling the narrative and "science" that the majority of us think to be the truth.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1409509557311881219
> Folks, get vaxxed or don't. But for the love of god please realize that we are getting gamed here. They've got the narrative controlled so tightly I'm convinced most people will believe clouds are made of marshmallows if the main stream "experts" all agreed to it.


The "peer reviewed study" you mention is published in a journal that is known to be on the shady side. If I were the media, I would also not report on this study since it is not in a reputable journal. Just at a glance I see a major issue with their results. They show a graph of the various countries in Europe and their relative number of adverse effects reported from the vaccine, per capita. The Netherlands, for some reason, is way at the top of the graph with 700 adverse effects per 100k people. The European average was 127. When they talk about the cases prevented by the vaccination, they discuss various countries, but when they talk about the side effects they only talk about the Netherlands. Of course if you take the country with the highest side effects (probably random chance, since it's a relatively small country), it will end up demonstrating what they clearly wanted to demonstrate. In the final paragraph above the Discussion section, they even admit that if you look at broader data, it's 1 death cause per 8 lives saved by the vaccine. 

Re herd immunity, Nature (a well-regarded journal) agrees that herd immunity seems unlikely. But they point to vaccine hesitancy and the unavailability of vaccines for young children as two of the main reasons. 








Five reasons why COVID herd immunity is probably impossible


Even with vaccination efforts in full force, the theoretical threshold for vanquishing COVID-19 looks to be out of reach.




www.nature.com





Even your article that you linked to just says that it's impossible to calculate when/if herd immunity will be reached. That is not an endorsement against vaccination. It's clear that the more we vaccinate, the less people will get sick.

We are not "getting gamed" here. There's no incentive for world governments to try and harm their populations via vaccination. World governments tend to want their populations to increase in order to increase their tax base. That's why they allow immigration.


----------



## Beaver101

Spudd said:


> I think he means you can't if you were allergic to the dye injection. Probably the dye injection and the Moderna use some base ingredient that people can be allergic to.


 ... and Pfizer doesn't use the same base ingredient as the CT dye contrast when both vaccines are supposedly interchangeable. I'm still puzzled.


----------



## Beaver101

:) lonewolf said:


> Like the Nazis & their eugenics try to make a superior human. Inject everyone with experimental cocktails who cares if billions die. Warning no mask no service, next month no vaccine no service, next month no embedded microchip no service, next month no top up vaccine no service,
> 
> It was not that long ago they segregated black people how did that work ? Beaver the Nazi path you want to lead us down will lead to gas chambers for those that are different or do not conform to the dictators. They have recently found mass graves sites of natives have you not learned anything from the find ?


----------



## sags

The vaccinator asked more questions about allergies and specifically about allergic reaction to the dye used in CT scans. She said if you are allergic you can't get Moderna. She also asked if I was allergic to Tylenol because it contains some ingredient used in Moderna......hypoglipasomething.

After 4 days my shoulder is still tender, especially around the vaccine injection site. I am thinking maybe because she "wiggled" the needle unlike the first shot of Pfizer. The time of the needle in my arm for the fist shot was about a second. For the second shot of Moderna it was maybe 6-8 seconds.

Had some sore muscles in the abdomen and back over the weekend, but that is likely just creaky old age. I did notice my index fingers on both hands are stiff and sore to bend. I went to grab something and it was excruciatingly painful and I had to manually straighten out the finger. Then it didn't hurt so bad.

I am thinking this old jalopy is heading to the junk yard soon anyways..........so don't care much about aches and pains anymore. You get used to it.


----------



## bgc_fan

FWIW here are the non-medical ingredient lists

Moderna:

1,2-distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine (DSPC)
Acetic acid
Cholesterol
Lipid SM-102
PEG2000 DMG 1,2-dimyristoyl-racglycerol,methoxy-polyethyleneglycol
Sodium acetate trihydrate
Sucrose
Trometamol
Trometamol hydrochloride
Water for injection

Pfizer:


ALC-0315 = ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate)
ALC-0159 = 2-[(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide
1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine
cholesterol
dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate
monobasic potassium phosphate
potassium chloride
sodium chloride
sucrose
water for injection
As for something common with CT dye, it's probably nothing. It's probably just the fact that you may be sensitive to allergens. It was previously mentioned that some of those who experienced anaphylaxis were allergic to CT dye, or other drugs.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Thanks for the info. I'll do some research re the CT dye and mRNA vaccines.

Re the stiff digits, definitely a sign of old age of which the lucky ones (including me) will get there eventually. One would need to do daily hand/fingers, etc exercises to keep them flexible. [I cheat by running them under very warm water first thing in the morning to un-stiff them. ]

Add: And thanks bgc for that list, will go through them!


----------



## MrMatt

5Lgreenback said:


> Just out, peer reviewed study of the vax risk/ benefit ratio.
> 
> As one doctor summarized it : "To prevent 3 deaths in obese and sick baby boomers, we are killing 2 young healthy people"


I think this is a discussion we should be having. 
I think the real situation is far more complicated than the summary


----------



## Ukrainiandude

5Lgreenback said:


> As one doctor summarized it : "To prevent 3 deaths in obese and sick baby boomers, we are killing 2 young healthy people"


This is very interesting data. Thanks for posting.
I am going to skip the second Pfizer shot and take my chances with Indian variant.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

From that paper.
Ideally, independent scientists should carry out thorough case reviews of the very severe cases, so that there can be evidence-based recommendations on who is likely to benefit from a SARS-CoV2 vaccination and who is in danger of suffering from side effects. Currently, our estimates show that we have to accept four fatal and 16 serious side effects per 100,000 vaccinations in order to save the lives of 2–11 individuals per 100,000 vaccinations, placing risks and benefits on the same order of magnitude.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> From that paper.
> Ideally, independent scientists should carry out thorough case reviews of the very severe cases, so that there can be evidence-based recommendations on who is likely to benefit from a SARS-CoV2 vaccination and who is in danger of suffering from side effects. Currently, our estimates show that we have to accept four fatal and 16 serious side effects per 100,000 vaccinations in order to save the lives of 2–11 individuals per 100,000 vaccinations, placing risks and benefits on the same order of magnitude.


It's not just deaths, COVID19 survivors can also have serious health issues.
But vaccination saving only 2-11/100k just doesn't make sense.
In Canada we had 1.5M cases which by the 2-11/100k numbers is at most 165 deaths, we had over 26k deaths.
The high end of your quotes estimate is off by 16 000%.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> But vaccination saving only 2-11/100k just doesn't make sense.


 You can read the whole article and see how they made calculations and what they mean by this.
They are talking about the wide cohort including people that had asymptomatic disease, those are in majority. A simple example from my family own experience, grandparents had covid but three other family members had no symptoms despite close contacts. 
I suspect that most of us already had covid without knowing it.


----------



## andrewf

"Most of us" is unlikely. It would have shown up in serology testing. Even many of the worst hit states in the US did not hit those levels of naturally acquired immunity.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> You can read the whole article and see how they made calculations and what they mean by this.
> They are talking about the wide cohort including people that had asymptomatic disease, those are in majority. A simple example from my family own experience, grandparents had covid but three other family members had no symptoms despite close contacts.
> I suspect that most of us already had covid without knowing it.


Canada a country with 35M people had 26k deaths. that's about 74/100k. For the total population. 
So lets assume almost every single person had COVID19, the death rate is way higher than 2-11/100k.

Their assumptions just don't make even back of the envelope success.

Assume the real death rate is 74/100k, as a "best case".

Even then it makes sense for me to get the vaccine rather than hoping I already got COVID.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> the death rate is way higher than 2-11/100k.





Ukrainiandude said:


> in order to save the lives of 2–11 individuals per 100,000 vaccinations,


 Where does it say about death rate?


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Where does it say about death rate?


Assuming a death rate of 74/100k, which is at the low end of any estimate I can imagine. A vaccine that is 50% effective would save at least 30 lives, not 2-11.

Your summary of the study doesn't fit reality. I think the "study" was just an attempt to push numbers to fit an agenda.

I'm okay with that, but a cursory examination shows them to be so wildly ridiculous that the study is obviously BS.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> the study is obviously BS.


It was peer reviewed and published in Vaccines.
Vaccines. Vaccines is an international, peer-reviewed, open access journalpublished monthly online by MDPI. The American Society for Virology (ASV) is affiliated with Vaccines and their members receive a discount on the article processing charges.

you see what you want to see, no wonder with that amount of brainwashing information from all sources.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> Assuming a death rate of 74/100k


 This death rate only includes people that got tested positive, you can easily divide it by ten, only one in ten will get tested.
There were several studies that showed antibodies in much higher population than expected.

If you are just bored at work and looking for something to argue about, I don’t have time for this, sorry mate.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> You can read the whole article and see how they made calculations and what they mean by this.
> *They are talking about the wide cohort including people that had asymptomatic disease, those are in majority. *A simple example from my family own experience, grandparents had covid but three other family members had no symptoms despite close contacts.
> *I suspect that most of us already had covid without knowing it.*


 ... without even having to read studies after studies, data after data, facts after facts, podcasts after podcasts, there lies the problem. Your best friend might have Covid without knowing it and then go spreading it, to you, to his/her best friend, and you to your family, and other best friend and so on. Plus which Covid variant he/she has asymptomatically, IDK. No thanks.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> This death rate only includes people that got tested positive, you can easily divide it by ten, only one in ten will get tested.
> There were several studies that showed antibodies in much higher population than expected.
> 
> If you are just bored at work and looking for something to argue about, I don’t have time for this, sorry mate.


No, 69 out of every 100k Canadians (regardless of testing) have already died from COVID. Ignoring all those that could die of COVID absent vaccination. So on the face of it, saying vaccination only could only prevent 11 out of 100k deaths seems, at best, unlikely. Perhaps it is meant in a sense other than the way you are interpreting. In the US, 186 of every 100k people (total population) already died.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> This death rate only includes people that got tested positive, you can easily divide it by ten, only one in ten will get tested.
> There were several studies that showed antibodies in much higher population than expected.
> 
> If you are just bored at work and looking for something to argue about, I don’t have time for this, sorry mate.


No 74/100k is for the entire population of Canada. 
It is actually the lowest possible death rate we can attribute to COVID19, unless you assume the COVID deaths were misreported.

You know the reported CFR is much higher.


----------



## Spudd

It's like my post above (#2834) doesn't exist. Please read that post for a thorough rebuttal of this Vaccines article.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Honestly that study has mixed reviews from "experts", and maybe there was an agenda behind its very possible.

But I think it brings up a valid point in the bigger picture. Most of our vulnerable population has been vaxxed. Children have a virtually 0 chance of dying from covid, and have higher risk of adverse events from the jabs then older populations. We are being told to go forth at full steam and keep getting shots. But its safe to say things have slowed down significantly and we can afford to take a step back and analyze things more carefully.

The CDC was going to have an "emergency meeting" about young populations having higher rates of myocarditis and deaths than expected on June 19th. But they realized it was a holiday that day, so they pushed it back a week. Just another indication of a real trustworthy organization.

They changed their status on children to halt for one day, the next day it was proceed with cautions and warnings, then they dropped that and are back on the needle in every arm campaign. They offered no explanation for these changes.

Lots of fear mongering going on with the delta variant now. Apparently it might be more transmissible, but a weaker infection once contracted. Some doctors claim that could be a sign of a dying pandemic, hopefully thats the case.

Edit - https://ca.news.yahoo.com/vaccinated-people-dying-delta-variant-104813911.html

Early reports from UK are showing fully vaccinated people aren't having as much protection from it as we would hope (from Delta). I wonder if fully vaxxed people are spreading the virus more than expected because their symptoms can often be reduced to something like a runny nose, so they carry on not realizing they have covid.


----------



## Spudd

I listened to "The Jab" podcast from the Economist this morning and they agreed with you that vaccinating children should be low on the priority list. Their position was that once a country has their vulnerable vaccinated, they should start donating vaccine to poorer nations. Without vaccinating the vulnerable in all nations across the world, we risk more variants arising, perhaps even ones that can slip by the vaccine. I can see the wisdom in this but am still selfishly glad I have both my shots!

The UK followed a similar vaccination program to us with the more spaced-out shots. I think they were doing 12 weeks between shots. Unfortunately, it seems like Delta is more able to infect people who only have one shot. 

But the good news is that 2 shots reduce hospitalizations from the Delta variant enormously. Pfizer reduced it 96%, AZ by 92%.








Vaccines highly effective against hospitalisation from Delta variant


New analysis by PHE shows for the first time that 2 doses of COVID-19 vaccines are highly effective against hospitalisation from the Delta (B.1.617.2) variant.




www.gov.uk





Even just one shot reduced hospitalization by a lot, but infection not so much.
(Source)


----------



## 5Lgreenback

And Spudd the Nature Article you posted, pretty much agrees with the article I posted. If the vaxxes aren't stopping the spread of covid, and theres evidence some of them may not be, herd immunity likely won't occur. 

Can all agree at least that we should be asking our agencies to allow the use of Ivermectin for those who choose it for use prevention and spread of covid? So far the evidence seems to suggest its effective against all strains. They have been intentionally sand bagging and trying to confuse this subject for long enough. We the people value our health and lives more than the profits of pharma and healthcare industries, and so should they.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> I listened to "The Jab" podcast from the Economist this morning and they agreed with you that vaccinating children should be low on the priority list. Their position was that once a country has their vulnerable vaccinated, they should start donating vaccine to poorer nations. Without vaccinating the vulnerable in all nations across the world, we risk more variants arising, perhaps even ones that can slip by the vaccine. I can see the wisdom in this but am still selfishly glad I have both my shots!
> 
> The UK followed a similar vaccination program to us with the more spaced-out shots. I think they were doing 12 weeks between shots. Unfortunately, it seems like Delta is more able to infect people who only have one shot.
> 
> But the good news is that 2 shots reduce hospitalizations from the Delta variant enormously. Pfizer reduced it 96%, AZ by 92%.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccines highly effective against hospitalisation from Delta variant
> 
> 
> New analysis by PHE shows for the first time that 2 doses of COVID-19 vaccines are highly effective against hospitalisation from the Delta (B.1.617.2) variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even just one shot reduced hospitalization by a lot, but infection not so much.
> (Source)
> 
> View attachment 21828



Interesting. I wonder if the fact that the virus still spreads in many of the vaccinated people but symptoms are severely reduced or even eliminated might be a recipe for a new scary variant in time?


----------



## Spudd

I looked into Ivermectin and I did find some evidence that it might be helpful, and at least is not harmful. Apparently a couple of South American countries have stated they will allow it as a treatment. I remember Peru was one, I forget the other one. 

Personally, I feel like the risk/benefit analysis isn't clear enough to make a strong recommendation for taking it, especially as a preventative. I couldn't find any randomized clinical trials on that. I don't really believe in taking drugs you don't need, but it might be beneficial to prescribe it to people who for whatever reason cannot take the vaccine (allergies, immuno-suppressed).

Using it as a treatment feels much more viable to me. I would imagine doctors are already able to prescribe it off-label if they feel it will help. The government will not approve it as an official treatment/preventative until more clinical trials are completed. This is the standard process for governmental approvals of drugs - clinical trials are a pre-requisite. Also, the manufacturer would need to apply for approval for the new use to be on-label.

I found this interesting article about off-label prescriptions:


https://assets.greenshield.ca/greenshield/GSC%20Stories%20(BLOG)/Follow%20the%20Script/2017/english/Follow%20the%20Script_Fall%202017.pdf


----------



## Ukrainiandude

andrewf said:


> died from COVID


Sure thing 
*Man who died in motorcycle crash counted as COVID-19 death in Florida: Report*


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> unless you assume the COVID deaths were misreported


just one example from the search 
*Man who died in motorcycle crash counted as COVID-19 death in Florida: Report*


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> just one example from the search
> *Man who died in motorcycle crash counted as COVID-19 death in Florida: Report*


Florida isn't Canada.


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> just one example from the search
> *Man who died in motorcycle crash counted as COVID-19 death in Florida: Report*


Here's a report from Fox News in Florida, where they say this death was removed from the list.









FOX 35 INVESTIGATES: Medical examiner explains how COVID-19 death is determined







www.fox35orlando.com


----------



## andrewf

Spudd said:


> I listened to "The Jab" podcast from the Economist this morning and they agreed with you that vaccinating children should be low on the priority list. Their position was that once a country has their vulnerable vaccinated, they should start donating vaccine to poorer nations. Without vaccinating the vulnerable in all nations across the world, we risk more variants arising, perhaps even ones that can slip by the vaccine. I can see the wisdom in this but am still selfishly glad I have both my shots!
> 
> The UK followed a similar vaccination program to us with the more spaced-out shots. I think they were doing 12 weeks between shots. Unfortunately, it seems like Delta is more able to infect people who only have one shot.
> 
> But the good news is that 2 shots reduce hospitalizations from the Delta variant enormously. Pfizer reduced it 96%, AZ by 92%.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccines highly effective against hospitalisation from Delta variant
> 
> 
> New analysis by PHE shows for the first time that 2 doses of COVID-19 vaccines are highly effective against hospitalisation from the Delta (B.1.617.2) variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even just one shot reduced hospitalization by a lot, but infection not so much.
> (Source)
> 
> View attachment 21828


AZ vaccine, particularly one dose, is also not as effective against Delta. It seems the UK problem is a huge horde of completely unvaccinated youth socializing and acting as a mini pandemic amongst that cohort.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> Here's a report from Fox News in Florida, where they say this death was removed from the list.


 This is the only one precedent and it got media attention. In all those deaths covid in its pure form could be in 10% rest is result of co morbidities. 
How many people that were completely healthy and died from covid do you know? I can’t recall anyone.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> This is the only one precedent and it got media attention. In all those deaths covid in its pure form could be in 10% rest is result of co morbidities.
> How many people that were completely healthy and died from covid do you know? I can’t recall anyone.


F those people with comorbidities, who needs 'em?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

andrewf said:


> F those people with comorbidities, who needs 'em?


Get them vaccinated and leave the rest alone.


----------



## andrewf

Most people have some comorbidity.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

andrewf said:


> Most people have some comorbidity.


Make a list of comorbidities and vaccinate them accordingly. How many of people in the age group 12 to 35 have comorbidity? Why vaccinate them all?


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> I looked into Ivermectin and I did find some evidence that it might be helpful, and at least is not harmful. Apparently a couple of South American countries have stated they will allow it as a treatment. I remember Peru was one, I forget the other one.
> 
> Personally, I feel like the risk/benefit analysis isn't clear enough to make a strong recommendation for taking it, especially as a preventative. I couldn't find any randomized clinical trials on that. I don't really believe in taking drugs you don't need, but it might be beneficial to prescribe it to people who for whatever reason cannot take the vaccine (allergies, immuno-suppressed).
> 
> Using it as a treatment feels much more viable to me. I would imagine doctors are already able to prescribe it off-label if they feel it will help. The government will not approve it as an official treatment/preventative until more clinical trials are completed. This is the standard process for governmental approvals of drugs - clinical trials are a pre-requisite. Also, the manufacturer would need to apply for approval for the new use to be on-label.
> 
> I found this interesting article about off-label prescriptions:
> 
> 
> https://assets.greenshield.ca/greenshield/GSC%20Stories%20(BLOG)/Follow%20the%20Script/2017/english/Follow%20the%20Script_Fall%202017.pdf



Ive posted numerous links to sites with RCT's for Ivermectin. The epidemiological data link I previously posted shows its at least on par or better at preventing covid cases (and hospitalizations) than the vaxxes, even on large population scales. Numerous other studies show the same effect in RCT's. Its very repeatable, and points strongly in the same direction. 

As a huge bonus the data suggests it prevents the spread of covid, not just the symptoms. Don't we actually want end this pandemic? 

If Remdesivir got an EUA for the "treatment" of covid at 6000-8000usd per application, and many doctors very unimpressed with the results, I really see no argument to not allow the use of ivermectin at pennies per dose. 

This is blatant corruption and letting big pharma dictate the rules of the game and dictate the "science".


----------



## gibor365

Today i went to another vaccination clinic and ....walked away as they wonted to give me Moderna! The ugly thing that Ontario government decided that I should get Moderna....they scan my Health card and tell me - only Moderna for you! Have another appointment next week at UTM (separate from Ontario website booking) , hopefully they will offer Moderna... Just missed Halton clinic who offering Pfizer  (need to check email every couple of hours)


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Today i went to another vaccination clinic and ....walked away as they wonted to give me Moderna! The ugly thing that Ontario government decided that I should get Moderna....they scan my Health card and tell me - only Moderna for you! Have another appointment next week at UTM (separate from Ontario website booking) , hopefully they will offer Moderna... Just missed Halton clinic who offering Pfizer  (need to check email every couple of hours)


Pfizer is being allocated to people who can't have Moderna.
Which is how they should allocate it.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> Pfizer is being allocated to people who can't have Moderna.
> Which is how they should allocate it.


My family got Pfizer in York and Halton. It's only Toronto and Peel who aren't giving Pfizer for last 2 weeks.
OK, I'll wait....we are getting in Peel 10-15 cases per day. it's absolutely nothing. So no hurry! In any case I missed by far required 21 days interval between doses.
And according to CDC, I cannot get Moderna , because my 1st dose was Pfizer


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> My family got Pfizer in York and Halton. It's only Toronto and Peel who aren't giving Pfizer for last 2 weeks.
> OK, I'll wait....we are getting in Peel 10-15 cases per day. it's absolutely nothing. So no hurry! In any case I missed by far required 21 days interval between doses.
> And according to CDC, I cannot get Moderna , because my 1st dose was Pfizer


According to Health Canada mixing Pfizer & Moderna isn't a problem


But you seem to prefer US to Canada.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> According to Health Canada mixing Pfizer & Moderna isn't a problem
> 
> 
> But you seem to prefer US to Canada.


According to the manufacturer it should be the same vaccine as you got the first time. CDC agrees with that, but health Canada want to experiment.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> According to the manufacturer it should be the same vaccine as you got the first time. CDC agrees with that, but health Canada want to experiment.


Exactly my point, the national authority has approved one thing, some private companies and foreign governments have approved something else.


----------



## sags

My doc says the Moderna produces stronger antibodies to the virus.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> My doc says the Moderna produces stronger antibodies to the virus.


And my doc says take it only if you are in the risk group, which I am not according to him.
should I listed to the mainstream brainwashing or to him?


----------



## andrewf

With vaccinations, herd immunity is a public good. It relies on enough people taking on some small risk for themselves to provide a greater good. And not to be a freeloader. Too many freeloaders and you end up with the tragedy of the commons. 

Yes, freeloading is a valid strategy.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> According to the manufacturer it should be the same vaccine as you got the first time. CDC agrees with that, but health Canada want to experiment.


Exactly my point! Canadian authorities (health) are politically driven. They failed us many times during Covid. Yes, i trust CDC much more than NACI or Health Canada that have no any tests/trials/real research data and just want to put in your body what they have more.



> some private companies and foreign governments have approved something else.


 It's not "some private companies" , it's producers of the vaccines. And it's strange that you call CDC "foreign governments " 

Some Ivory Coast Health may also "experiment" on their people saying "the national authority has approved one thing, some private companies and foreign governments have approved something else. " LOL
Do you really trust , our "top doctor" Theresa Tam?!


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Exactly my point! Canadian authorities (health) are politically driven. They failed us many times during Covid. Yes, i trust CDC much more than NACI or Health Canada that have no any tests/trials/real research data and just want to put in your body what they have more.


Sorry, Health Canada has data. At this point you're simply spreading disinformation.
Lots of valid points of discussion, but once you start lying and spreading disinformation.. I'm out.



> It's not "some private companies" , it's producers of the vaccines. And it's strange that you call CDC "foreign governments "


The US CDC is a US Federal Agency. They're literally a foreign government agency.
Why are facts "strange" to you?

Actually that raises a different point, why should I discuss with you when you spread disinformation and you find facts "strange". Aren't facts the foundation of a reasonable discussion?


----------



## 5Lgreenback

andrewf said:


> With vaccinations, herd immunity is a public good. It relies on enough people taking on some small risk for themselves to provide a greater good. And not to be a freeloader. Too many freeloaders and you end up with the tragedy of the commons.
> 
> Yes, freeloading is a valid strategy.


Except for the fact that vaccinated people are still spreading covid, likely more so since symptoms are milder and therefore less likely to get tested.

This herd immunity nonsense is just coercion and trying to pit people against each other.


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> *Today i went to another vaccination clinic and ....walked away as they wonted to give me Moderna!* The ugly thing that Ontario government decided that I should get Moderna....they scan my Health card and tell me - only Moderna for you! Have another appointment next week at UTM (separate from Ontario website booking) , hopefully they will offer Moderna... Just missed Halton clinic who offering Pfizer  (need to check email every couple of hours)


 ... was this you? Talk about the lack of civility too if not *ruining the process for everyone else.*

Toronto officials raise concerns about abuse faced by clinic staff amid move to interchangeably administer mRNA vaccines

_



Published Wednesday, June 30, 2021 11:30AM EDT
Toronto officials are raising concerns about the amount of abuse being faced by workers at its vaccine clinics as the city officially makes the switch to interchangeably administer both Pfizer and Moderna going forward.

*Fire Chief Matthew Pegg, who is the chair of Toronto’s vaccine task force, told reporters on Wednesday that there has been an alarming increase in threatening behaviour towards staff at its nine clinics over the last week with most of it involving individuals who are showing up for appointments and demanding that they receive a specific vaccine.*

Pegg said that the behaviour must stop, especially as Toronto switches to a new model in which it will “interchangeably” administer both Pfizer and Moderna at its clinics based solely on supply.

*“This behavior has included aggressive and threatening behavior, verbal attacks and displays of anger towards our clinic staff,” Pegg said. “To be very clear this type of behavior will not be tolerated in any of our clinics for any reason. Our clinic management teams, along with their clinic security staff will intervene, and will immediately remove anyone who displays any type of inappropriate or aggressive behavior towards the clinic staff, or other clients.”*

Click to expand...

_


> ...


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Dr. McCollough 45 min interview with Tucker Carlson about the craziness and malpractice he's seeing in the global medical institutions. 

"Intense suppression and legal threats to doctors treating covid-19 outpatients." 

"Something is going on here, I've never seen anything like this" <--- Yeah, no kidding!

This was a couple months back, still holds true and in fact things have gotten worse.


----------



## andrewf

5Lgreenback said:


> Except for the fact that vaccinated people are still spreading covid, likely more so since symptoms are milder and therefore less likely to get tested.
> 
> This herd immunity nonsense is just coercion and trying to pit people against each other.


Vaccination reduces the severity and duration of illness, and likely how much virus a person sheds. Herd immunity is where the effective R value is less than 1 and clusters of infection peter out. It doesn't mean perfect imperviousness to infection.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

andrewf said:


> Vaccination reduces the severity and duration of illness, *and likely how much virus a person sheds.* Herd immunity is where the effective R value is less than 1 and clusters of infection peter out. It doesn't mean perfect imperviousness to infection.


The evidence of that is purely speculative. 40% of delta infections occurring in fully vaxxed people in the UK. I'd say its improbable that the R value is less than 1 in vaxxed.


----------



## MrMatt

5Lgreenback said:


> The evidence of that is purely speculative. 40% of delta infections occurring in fully vaxxed people in the UK. I'd say its improbable that the R value is less than 1 in vaxxed.


Actually it seems the vaccination helps, but it might not be enough for Delta.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> *Sorry, Health Canada has data. *At this point you're simply spreading disinformation.
> Lots of valid points of discussion, but once you start lying and spreading disinformation.. I'm out.
> 
> 
> The US CDC is a US Federal Agency. They're literally a foreign government agency.
> Why are facts "strange" to you?
> 
> Actually that raises a different point, why should I discuss with you when you spread disinformation and you find facts "strange". Aren't facts the foundation of a reasonable discussion?


Sorry, what exact data Health Canada has?! There were some small trials in EU mixing AZ and mRNA, but I didn't hear anything about mixing Pfizer and Moderna. 
I don;t trust health Canada and NACI as they screwed up many times during pandemic,


----------



## 5Lgreenback

gibor365 said:


> Sorry, what exact data Health Canada has?! There were some small trials in EU mixing AZ and mRNA, but I didn't hear anything about mixing Pfizer and Moderna.
> I don;t trust health Canada and NACI as they screwed up many times during pandemic,


^ Health Canada threatened Canadian doctors with their licenses if they dared to treat out patients with covid-19. Early treatment is essential and tremendously effective. This is all about getting a needle in everyone before they have a chance to think things through. I wouldn't trust them

The US is only slightly better because they have a clause allowing doctors to override certain protocols (in this case overriding the protocol of do nothing) if they deem it to be the best choice using their judgment.

You're looking for official policies from agencies and corporations that do not have our health or interests in mind.


----------



## andrewf

5Lgreenback said:


> The evidence of that is purely speculative. 40% of delta infections occurring in fully vaxxed people in the UK. I'd say its improbable that the R value is less than 1 in vaxxed.


That is also a bad reason not to vaccinate, as R value absent vax is much higher!


----------



## gibor365

To be fair, even though if UK has a huge spike in new cases, there are no increase in deaths....
Similar in Israel, just month ago they had single digits cases per day, now it's 200+ , but number of serious/critical cases didn't change , it's still stands on 24, and only 1 death in last 7 days. So, looks like with fully vaccinated, Covid is more like mild flu.

P.S. btw, as I was telling before, Canada already overpassed Israel in Death per 1M and this gap will be wider and wider


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> To be fair, even though if UK has a huge spike in new cases, there are no increase in deaths....
> Similar in Israel, just month ago they had single digits cases per day, now it's 200+ , but number of serious/critical cases didn't change , it's still stands on 24, and only 1 death in last 7 days. So, looks like with fully vaccinated, Covid is more like mild flu.
> 
> P.S. btw, as I was telling before, Canada already overpassed Israel in Death per 1M and this gap will be wider and wider


Because Israel closed their borders and we didn't.
The single most important intervention at the national level is to close borders early.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> Because Israel closed their borders and we didn't.
> The single most important intervention at the national level is to close borders early.


This is because Israel cares more about the people than about political correctness , but i still attribute it to amazing vaccination rollout, hence everyone who wanted to get fully vaccinated, did it several month ago.... without AZ, mixing vaccines and other obstacles


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> To be fair, even though if UK has a huge spike in new cases, there are no increase in deaths....
> Similar in Israel, just month ago they had single digits cases per day, now it's 200+ , but number of serious/critical cases didn't change , it's still stands on 24, and only 1 death in last 7 days. So, looks like with fully vaccinated, Covid is more like mild flu.
> 
> P.S. btw, as I was telling before, Canada already overpassed Israel in Death per 1M and this gap will be wider and wider


To be fair, deaths lag cases by a few weeks. We'll see what the cases translate to.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> To be fair, even though if UK has a huge spike in new cases, there are no increase in deaths....
> Similar in Israel, just month ago they had single digits cases per day, now it's 200+ , but number of serious/critical cases didn't change , it's still stands on 24, and only 1 death in last 7 days. So, looks like with fully vaccinated, Covid is more like mild flu.
> 
> P.S. btw, as I was telling before, Canada already overpassed Israel in Death per 1M and this gap will be wider and wider


Israel is reimposing mask rules and considering gathering limits.









COVID Delta spread renews mask order in Israel, lockdown in Sydney


Also, health officials in India fear another wave of infections from a variant related to Delta called Delta Plus.




www.cidrap.umn.edu


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> To be fair, deaths lag cases by a few weeks. We'll see what the cases translate to.


True. But Israel is also posting how many serious/critical and how many mild cases. While mild cases significantly increased, serious/critical stayed the same....
Looks like in a couple of months we gonna have another wave, hopefully it would be mild..

btw, just heard on the radio that Ontario is the only jurisdiction in North America where indoor dining is banned!


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> True. But Israel is also posting how many serious/critical and how many mild cases. While mild cases significantly increased, serious/critical stayed the same....
> Looks like in a couple of months we gonna have another wave, hopefully it would be mild..
> 
> btw, just heard on the radio that Ontario is the only jurisdiction in North America where indoor dining is banned!


I eat indoors about 90% of the time.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Sorry, Health Canada has data. At this point you're simply spreading disinformation.
> Lots of valid points of discussion, but once you start lying and spreading disinformation.. I'm out.
> 
> 
> The US CDC is a US Federal Agency. They're literally a foreign government agency.
> Why are facts "strange" to you?
> 
> Actually that raises a different point, why should I discuss with you when you spread disinformation and you find facts "strange". Aren't facts the foundation of a reasonable discussion?


Health Canada doesn't use data to make decisions. At least not in all of the cases.

December 14, 2020 - first COVID vaccine shot applied in Canada.
March 3, 2021 - Health Canada changes policy to 4 month in between doses.

Notice something here?
The time between the very first dose applied in the country until the decision was made is less than 4 months.
Unless Health Canada has a time machine locked away somewhere, it is physically impossible for them to make this decision based on data. They didn't have a single data point.
During vaccine trials prior to December, no other schedule than 21-28 days was used for testing.

The decision was made without any data. It was purely politically driven.


----------



## gibor365

Health Canada and NACI are just puppets of the current government. "Unless Health Canada has a time machine locked away somewhere, it is physically impossible for them to make this decision based on data. " - exactly what I was telling when this ridiculous 4 months intervals were introduced. Head of NACI admitted in interview to MP Rempel , that they would advise to follow producers protocol 21/28 days interval if Canada had enough vaccines. So, yes, they used "science" - to be precise "science of math" by dividing number of Canadian population by number of expected vaccines shipments LOL.



> The US CDC is a US Federal Agency. They're literally a foreign government agency.


 OK, NO problem! So, I trust "foreign government agency." more than Canadian ones. If I hold Canadian passport, it doesn't mean that I should trust all what Canadian government agencies are telling. When i lived in Soviet Union I also trusted agencies like CDC more than Soviet ones.
And what data can Canada Health have regarding mixing Pfizer and Moderna?! They started to it 2 weeks ago. No Israel and no US mixed mRNA vaccines. Same political pressure that was apply pushing Canadians to get AZ. 

Canadian government agencies:

said in the beginning of pandemic On 26 January, "There is no clear evidence that this virus is spread easily from person to person. The risk to Canadians remains low " LOL
recommended the general public against wearing masks
increased interval between vaccines to 4 months w/o any trials , just for political reasons(the only country in the World who did it)
made complete mess with AZ, changing guidance 4 times in 2 weeks (who can get it and who couldn't) deceiving Canadians (btw, still no word which 2nd vaccine got Trudeau, Ford, Elliot, Hajdu etc who claim they received 1st dose of AZ)
pushing Canadians who got 1st dose of Pfizer to get 2nd of Moderna , again w/o any trials or data.
and so on...
If you trust "Canadian government agencies" - you are welcome.... I don't trust them...
-


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Health Canada doesn't use data to make decisions. At least not in all of the cases.
> 
> December 14, 2020 - first COVID vaccine shot applied in Canada.
> March 3, 2021 - Health Canada changes policy to 4 month in between doses.
> 
> Notice something here?
> The time between the very first dose applied in the country until the decision was made is less than 4 months.
> Unless Health Canada has a time machine locked away somewhere, it is physically impossible for them to make this decision based on data. They didn't have a single data point.
> During vaccine trials prior to December, no other schedule than 21-28 days was used for testing.
> 
> The decision was made without any data. It was purely politically driven.


I did notice you skipped the fact that initial vaccine trial data started getting published in July and August 2020. Several months before they started public vaccinations.
If you recall, back in March I was very much against this as _I_ didn't have the data to support it.
About a month or two later, when the data became widely and publicly available, I changed my mind. By now it's pretty obvious that the first dose ASAP was the right decision.


----------



## damian13ster

That is not true.
I did mention that in this sentence:
'During vaccine trials prior to December, no other schedule than 21-28 days was used for testing. '

Data about delaying doses by 4 months didn't exist when the decision was made.
Health Canada didn't use data to make that decision.
It is political


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> That is not true.
> I did mention that in this sentence:
> 'During vaccine trials prior to December, no other schedule than 21-28 days was used for testing. '
> 
> Data about delaying doses by 4 months didn't exist when the decision was made.
> Health Canada didn't use data to make that decision.
> It is political


Clinical data of that specific administration schedule testing 4 months didn't exist.

However other data did exist, they had an idea how long the immunity lasted, and experts agreed it was likely ok based on the information they did have.
Also they really didn't have much of another choice, we still don't have enough vaccine for everyone.

It was pragmatic, not political.





__





What is the evidence for extending the SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) vaccine dosing schedule? | British Columbia Medical Journal


10 March 2021: Updated information relating to this article has been published: “An updated look at the 16-week window between doses of vaccines in BC for COVID-19.” A successful vaccination strategy against SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) may be a cornerstone in the resolution of the current pandemic. If...




bcmj.org






So yes, they had imperfect and incomplete data in an urgent situation, so they made a low risk best guess.
A best guess that turned out to be the right call.


----------



## damian13ster

And you are questioning posters for believing health authority that makes decisions and recommendations based on data from scientists who created the vaccine, and based on clinical trials?
You are mocking them for choosing this over health agency that operates on 'guesses' and 'bets'?
You claim they rather listen to foreign governments and manufacturers.
That is simply not true. The posters simply don't ignore science and choose not to gamble with health.

That is the problem that came out during this pandemic. Health authorities in Canada turned out to be politicians and not scientists. They continued to ignore data or lack thereof and instead 'guessed' and 'bet'. 
Not a surprise that they lose credibility.

They did have another choice. Give full protection for most vulnerable population. The approach based on science, on known data about vaccine efficiency and efficacy at known time interval. Vast majority of the countries didn't ignore science and used this approach.
Health Canada decided to use guessing instead and betting - not a valid approach to Canadians' health.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

The world would be long time over this craziness 
if there were no restrictions and people just got reinfected 
Sweden went this way 
As of April 16, 2021, more than 13 700 people have died from COVID-19 in Sweden.
with population of 10 million 
Canada 
26,295 dead
with population of 37 mln
the USA 604,000 dead
with population 328 mln


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> The world would be long time over this craziness
> if there were no restrictions and people just got reinfected
> Sweden went this way
> As of April 16, 2021, more than 13 700 people have died from COVID-19 in Sweden.
> with population of 10 million
> Canada
> 26,295 dead
> with population of 37 mln
> the USA 604,000 dead
> with population 328 mln


Is this some weird form of poetry?


----------



## Spudd

j


Ukrainiandude said:


> The world would be long time over this craziness
> if there were no restrictions and people just got reinfected
> Sweden went this way
> As of April 16, 2021, more than 13 700 people have died from COVID-19 in Sweden.
> with population of 10 million
> Canada
> 26,295 dead
> with population of 37 mln
> the USA 604,000 dead
> with population 328 mln


What are you trying to say? Sweden had more deaths per capita than we did, so you're saying they acted incorrectly? (I would agree with that, but based on your words it doesn't seem like that was trying to be your point.)


----------



## bgc_fan

Spudd said:


> j
> 
> What are you trying to say? Sweden had more deaths per capita than we did, so you're saying they acted incorrectly? (I would agree with that, but based on your words it doesn't seem like that was trying to be your point.)


Kind of an odd argument, bringing up two examples where per capita they did worse than Canada, yet they're supposed to be the examples to follow.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> Sweden had more deaths per capita than we did


 Not by far the USA with all restrictions had 184 deaths per 100k
italy 211 very strict rules
the Uk with super strict rules 192
Sweden 142 no restrictions 
Canada 70 (only because its underpopulated isolated county).


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Not by far the USA with all restrictions had 184 deaths per 100k
> italy 211 very strict rules
> the Uk with super strict rules 192
> Sweden 142 no restrictions
> Canada 70 (only because its underpopulated isolated county).


It’s stupid to count deaths directly from Covid... There are more deaths from lockdowns than from Covid itself... No one publishes excess deaths during Covid... Next couple of years will be disaster in Canada, considering tons of cancelled surgeries and cancer screenings. Majority during Covid weren’t be able even to see their family doctors.. not even talking about medical specialists...


----------



## damian13ster

We don't have to wait for years to see the effect. Fall of 2020 already had massive amount of excess deaths, especially in younger population. Restrictions are already causing deaths and it will continue for multiple years.


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> We don't have to wait for years to see the effect. Fall of 2020 already had massive amount of excess deaths, especially in younger population. Restrictions are already causing deaths and it will continue for multiple years.


I know and this is what I posted in the first sentence... I meant that effect will be disastrous in couple of years


----------



## kcowan

Science would have favoured using scarce vaccines to fully inoculate the most vulnerable first. Instead they wanted to lead the race in single doses. And why? Because no one will be punished for the added deaths.

Will the people that waited 4 months for a second dose be better protected against Delta? The government will never tell you! Pfizer says they are 88% efficacy with 2 doses against Delta versus 33% with one dose when following their regimen.


----------



## andrewf

kcowan said:


> Science would have favoured using scarce vaccines to fully inoculate the most vulnerable first. Instead they wanted to lead the race in single doses. And why? Because no one will be punished for the added deaths.
> 
> Will the people that waited 4 months for a second dose be better protected against Delta? The government will never tell you! Pfizer says they are 88% efficacy with 2 doses against Delta versus 33% with one dose when following their regimen.


UK is getting a second wave by following the strategy you propose. I'm not sure it would be better. If Pfizer is 92% effective from one dose, I think blanket coverage makes more sense than upping the 92% to 94% for the 'medium vulnerable'. We did fully vaccinate the most vulnerable first--those 80+ or in LTC.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Pfizer and Moderna left previously covid infected and suspected previously infected people out of their trials as well as anyone they found to have antibodies. The kicker is, they left these groups out of the placebo group as well. Why? Well its common practice to *rig the studies you stand to benefit from, in your favour*. 

Of course the result of this would show the vax to be much more beneficial and more effective than it actually is. 

Yet people still think this style science, set up for big pharma by big pharma, riddled with conflicts of interest, is the science we're supposed to believe.

Meanwhile, it appears the CDC is manipulating the data and collection of said data to no longer show "breakthrough" cases unless they end up in hospital. Its honestly looking like the vax has very little effect on transmission of the virus.

The fear mongering in the mainstream is strong in regards to the Delta variant. But I'm happy to see less people are buying into it now.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Canadian surgeon that was brave enough to want to give parents and kids proper informed consent, with regards to the jabs, recorded his firing. He was just following the protocol on the corrupt WHO website as he stated in the audio, warning of not using the vax on those under 18. Clearly the facts don't fit the needle in every arm at all costs agenda. Judge for yourselves:









2021-06-23_08-26-55.wav


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





Meanwhile on the WHO website:

"WHO SHOULD GET VACCINATED

The Covid-19 Vaccines are safe for most people 18 years and older...."


----------



## :) lonewolf

5Lgreenback said:


> Canadian surgeon that was brave enough to want to give parents and kids proper informed consent, with regards to the jabs, recorded his firing. He was just following the protocol on the corrupt WHO website as he stated in the audio, warning of not using the vax on those under 18. Clearly the facts don't fit the needle in every arm at all costs agenda. Judge for yourselves:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2021-06-23_08-26-55.wav
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile on the WHO website:
> 
> "WHO SHOULD GET VACCINATED
> 
> The Covid-19 Vaccines are safe for most people 18 years and older...."


Video does not start till 4:50 mark. Moderators thanks for not removing people need to hear this. Maybe we are starting to win the war the moderators never removed the video


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> *UK is getting a second wave by following the strategy you propose*. I'm not sure it would be better. If Pfizer is 92% effective from one dose, I think blanket coverage makes more sense than upping the 92% to 94% for the 'medium vulnerable'. We did fully vaccinate the most vulnerable first--those 80+ or in LTC.


Maybe UK had a bew spike because they mostly used AZ that is much worse against Delta than nRNA?
On the other hand, we see now spike in Israel, just couple of weeks ago they had single digit new cases per day, but last 5 days around 290 cases per day and All Israel got vaccinated with mRNA vaccines.... If virus mutates itself and no vaccine protect you, we are in deep ****.... in Ontario we are going to full lockdown before we reach Phase 3 of reopening . ,


----------



## :) lonewolf

The drug dealers should have left Moma bear alone. Vaccinating kids that are not @ risk with the experimental cocktail is going to awake a very angry mother bear & back fire on the drug dealers. The number one rule in the forest is do not F--- with mother bear.


----------



## :) lonewolf

gibor365 said:


> Maybe UK had a bew spike because they mostly used AZ that is much worse against Delta than nRNA?


 Michael Yeadon former VP @ Phyzer said the scarriant only changed 00.3% around May. Drug dealer + scarriant = more vaccines = more money


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> Maybe UK had a bew spike because they mostly used AZ that is much worse against Delta than nRNA?
> On the other hand, we see now spike in Israel, just couple of weeks ago they had single digit new cases per day, but last 5 days around 290 cases per day and All Israel got vaccinated with mRNA vaccines.... If virus mutates itself and no vaccine protect you, we are in deep ****.... in Ontario we are going to full lockdown before we reach Phase 3 of reopening . ,


Yeah, Israel has the highest daily COVID cases in 3 months. Israel is bringing back masks, which is very smart.

All of this has me concerned. I could shrug off COVID rising in the UK due to AZ perhaps, but now in Israel, with one of the highest vaccination rates in the world??

I've said this before but we should not be relying solely on vaccination. This is still a new disease that we don't have a handle on, and people should still be keeping a distance from each other and wearing masks in high risk situations.


----------



## kcowan

andrewf said:


> UK is getting a second wave by following the strategy you propose. I'm not sure it would be better. If Pfizer is 92% effective from one dose, I think blanket coverage makes more sense than upping the 92% to 94% for the 'medium vulnerable'. We did fully vaccinate the most vulnerable first--those 80+ or in LTC.


In the case of the Pfizer jab, one jab produce 33% efficacy versus Delta but two doses produces 88% efficacy. We should have done the second jab for the highly vulnerable first and not afer four months. What bothers me most is that the people who decided that strategy will get off scot free for the added deaths.


----------



## sags

Israel didn't vaccinate Palestinians, so it was predictable they would have another outbreak due to contact with all those who were not vaccinated.

It is also possible the former Netanyahu government wasn't fully transparent with the COVID numbers, as he was in a tight election battle, which he lost.

The numbers and overall situation appear to have changed drastically when the new government took over control.

_UN experts had been critical of Israel's failure to fully extend its vaccination programme to Palestinians under its control.

The Israelis said the Palestinians were responsible for managing health matters in the territories._









Covid: Palestinians cancel vaccine swap deal with Israel


Israel was to hand over more than one million jabs but Palestinians said they were too close to expiry.



www.bbc.com


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> It’s stupid to count deaths directly from Covid... There are more deaths from lockdowns than from Covid itself... No one publishes excess deaths during Covid... *Next couple of years will be disaster in Canada, considering tons of cancelled surgeries and cancer screenings. Majority during Covid weren’t be able even to see their family doctors.. not even talking about medical specialists...*


 ... right and when their family doctors/medical specialists get infected and die, you don't have to worry about these tsunamis either. Actually you can go on the web and self-exam and be your own doctor/brain surgeon.


----------



## sags

Had there been more restriction and lockdowns from the beginning of the pandemic, the health care system could have been better able to continue normally.

The influx of covid patients created outbreaks within hospitals and caused the shutdown of hospital services, such as surgeries and cancer treatments.

What did people pushing the government to keep everything open during a pandemic think was going to happen ?


----------



## sags

Remember when some people were saying that the virus wasn't causing serious symptoms among most people, so it was nothing to stop the economy from continuing ?

What those people failed to recognize was the ability of the virus to mutate. The longer it is circulating the more mutations will be created and eventually one will render vaccines useless.

The Delta was only discovered a few months ago in India. It has quickly become the dominant virus. There is another variant found In Vietnam which is a "hybrid" virus.

It combines the India and UK virus into a new and more dangerous form. Thus far it hasn't circulated.....but who knows if it will. 

The theory that viruses mutate this fast normally is not based on science.

The experts say this virus is mutating at a much faster rate than they would normally expect. 

I believe this is because of genetic experimentation in "gain of function" experiments.

Anyone who doesn't believe this virus was developed and escaped from the Wuhan lab isn't paying attention.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> ...
> 
> What did people pushing the government to keep everything open during a pandemic think was going to happen ?


 ... whatever happened happens to everyone else except themselves. And will continue with this level of thinking. The ingrained Me, Myself & I self-centered thinking.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Remember when some people were saying that the virus wasn't causing serious symptoms among most people, so it was nothing to stop the economy from continuing ?
> 
> What those people failed to recognize was the ability of the virus to mutate. The longer it is circulating the more mutations will be created and eventually one will render vaccines useless.
> 
> The Delta was only discovered a few months ago in India. It has quickly become the dominant virus. There is another variant found In Vietnam which is a "hybrid" virus.
> 
> It combines the India and UK virus into a new and more dangerous form. Thus far it hasn't circulated.....but who knows if it will.
> 
> The theory that viruses mutate this fast normally is not based on science.
> 
> The experts say this virus is mutating at a much faster rate than they would normally expect.
> 
> I believe this is because of genetic experimentation in "gain of function" experiments.
> 
> *Anyone who doesn't believe this virus was developed and escaped from the Wuhan lab isn't paying attention.*


 ... say your hypothesis is correct with a BIG "if". What's next? The virus(es) ain't going away and neither the next pandemic.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Meanwhile Sweden that didn’t have crazy lockdowns yesterday new cases 300 and no deaths.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Not yet (deaths). Reminder: you're not in Sweden.


----------



## sags

The example of Sweden is a poor one.

They had 14,000 deaths.......many times more than neighboring countries.

The claim they don't have restrictions is a myth.
_
More than 14,000 people diagnosed with COVID-19 have died in Sweden, many times higher than in neighboring Nordic countries, though it has fared better than most European countries that opted for strict lockdowns. _









Sweden to ease restrictions on July 1 as pandemic slows


Sweden will ease many of its restrictions aimed at slowing the spread of the COVID-19 on July 1, allowing larger crowds at stadiums and restaurants, the minister of health said on Monday.




www.reuters.com


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The example of Sweden is a poor one.
> 
> They had 14,000 deaths.......many times more than neighboring countries.
> 
> The claim they don't have restrictions is a myth.


Their restrictions weren't as heavy, and they paid the price.


----------



## sags

Beaver101 said:


> ... say your hypothesis is correct with a BIG "if". What's next? The virus(es) ain't going away and neither the next pandemic.


Nobody knows at this point, but if the virus is allowed to spread and mutate globally it is almost assured that we will be in future lock downs.

The world needs to expand vaccinations to every corner of the earth and respond to any outbreaks immediately.

Unless researchers discover the "holy grail" of vaccines, it will be a constant battle.

Heaven only knows what pathogens could be released from the thawing Arctic tundra, for which current generations have no built up immunity.

We have opened the Pandora box with reckless abandon and disregard for the environment on which our lives depend.

Was it ever destined to turn out otherwise with such callous contempt for that which sustains our lives ?


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Their restrictions weren't as heavy, and they paid the price.


Yet the other countries in Europe with heavier restrictions paid bigger price.
We have been over this. Looking at biggest data sets available, 200 jurisdictions across entire world, government intervention has absolutely zero effect on number of deaths from COVID. Facts don't lie.
Not recouping the discussion, just reiterating facts from data from entire world that people seem to ignore by pointing to a single country. Tokenism spreads faster than variants


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> The example of Sweden is a poor one


 Compared to Italy, Spain, France the Uk where we saw strict rules and lockdowns, Sweden did very well. 
Yes Canada had lower death rates but only because of natural factors such as population density. The USA with similar to Canadian rules did much worse compared to Sweden


----------



## sags

The PM of Sweden apologized to the Swedish people for his failure to recognize the severity of the COVID virus.

They abandoned the "herd immunity" response and applied strict restrictions. The UK followed the same ill advised strategy early as well.

The King of Sweden also blasted the government's weak pandemic response in widely reported public press conferences.

The premise that restrictions had no softening impact on the number of hospitalizations and deaths is a bizarre and false narrative.

The PM just got ousted from the Swedish Parliament, but for a different policy.









Swedish PM says officials misjudged power of Covid resurgence


Major report finds nation failed to protect elderly and criticises response to the pandemic




www.theguardian.com


----------



## damian13ster

That's why you don't focus on tokens. I understand our entire political system and media coverage focuses on tokens, but it is very counterproductive. You look at 200 jurisdictions across the world. And the verdict is clear. Government intervention has zero effect on deaths and severe illnesses from COVID. Zooming in on a single data point really clouds the view when you have 200 of them available.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Investigative Writer Julius Ruechel Flips COVID Upside Down. Very important listen:

Using the Canadian Governments own statistics and data to shake up what everyone thinks they know about covid. 

"98.6% of Canadian covid deaths have been at the hands of the government policies and government institutions" and he breaks this down very clearly in the podcast and much more.









‎Trish Wood is Critical: Investigative Writer Julius Ruechel Flips COVID Upside Down on Apple Podcasts


‎Show Trish Wood is Critical, Ep Investigative Writer Julius Ruechel Flips COVID Upside Down - Jun 18, 2021



podcasts.apple.com





Now for those who have been following the filtered mainstream narrative, they might just blame the above on government incompetence. 

For those who have spotted the lies earlier and have chosen to dig deeper, can really only conclude this is intentional.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Nobody has comments on the Canadian surgeon getting fired for simply wanting to give patients proper informed consent? And those firing him giving him blatantly false reasoning?

I saw a tweet a few months back that I laughed at and figured it was a bit extreme. Now having spent many hours researching for myself as well as listening to doctors, scientists and journalists from all sides I can't help but see just how accurate it is.

*"Why did we bother educating everyone for the last 75 years about nazism and fascism if the next time it appears so many of us look it squarely in the face and decide it can't possibly be what it obviously is."*


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Israel didn't vaccinate Palestinians, so it was predictable they would have another outbreak due to contact with all those who were not vaccinated.
> 
> It is also possible the former Netanyahu government wasn't fully transparent with the COVID numbers, as he was in a tight election battle, which he lost.
> 
> The numbers and overall situation appear to have changed drastically when the new government took over control.
> 
> _UN experts had been critical of Israel's failure to fully extend its vaccination programme to Palestinians under its control.
> 
> The Israelis said the Palestinians were responsible for managing health matters in the territories._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid: Palestinians cancel vaccine swap deal with Israel
> 
> 
> Israel was to hand over more than one million jabs but Palestinians said they were too close to expiry.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


sags, stop spreading disinformation and nonsense!
What "contacts with Palestinians " you are talking about?! There is no even ONE Israeli citizen in Gaza! Same with territories on West bank controlled by Palestinian authorities. There are NO Palestinians who live in Israel, there are limited number of Palestinian foreign workers who are also vaccinated (by Israelis). If you mean Arabs who live in Israel, they are not Palestinians, but Israeli citizens and have exactly same right like any other Israeli. Obviouslly they are fully vaccinated (who wanted to be).

Palestinians declined 1M Pfizer vaccine that weren't expired, but were close to expiry! However, Canada just extended by 1 month expiry date of AZ vaccines!!!!


----------



## sags

An estimated 130,000 Palestinians working in Israel is "a limited number" ? Israel just started vaccinating the workers a couple of months ago.

The vaccine offer was for vaccines on the verge of expiration in return for the Palestinian Pfizer supply in the future.

Not surprising the Palestinians refused the offer. The virus also doesn't respect borders.


----------



## damian13ster

So they got vaccinated faster than Canadians?
I thought expiry dates on vaccines are just suggestions and can be arbitrarily changed? Or does that only apply to Canada? Gifted vaccines close to expiration date are not good enough for Palestinians, but purchased expired vaccines are good enough for Canadians? Why not treat both cases the same?
Your ideology is getting in the way of logic again.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Yet the other countries in Europe with heavier restrictions paid bigger price.
> We have been over this. Looking at biggest data sets available, 200 jurisdictions across entire world, government intervention has absolutely zero effect on number of deaths from COVID. Facts don't lie.
> Not recouping the discussion, just reiterating facts from data from entire world that people seem to ignore by pointing to a single country. Tokenism spreads faster than variants


That's not true, we've been over it.
The authors of the big study you referenced literally said that their study doesn't support the conclusion that restrictions didn't work.

I agree facts don't lie, and stats don't lie either. But making conclusions when the facts and data don't support them is, for lack of a better term, "a lie".


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Compared to Italy, Spain, France the Uk where we saw strict rules and lockdowns, Sweden did very well.
> Yes Canada had lower death rates but only because of natural factors such as population density. The USA with similar to Canadian rules did much worse compared to Sweden


The restrictions in Italy were far too late.

Sweden had different restrictions and a different culture, so they had different results.

Similarly Canada/US are very different, heck look across the US and there are substantial differences.


----------



## damian13ster

You look at the narrative instead of data.
Focus on the facts.
Data shows restrictions didn't work.
We all know what is happening to scientists that claim government is acting mindlessly so of course narrative will be affected.
Do you think the study would exist if that statement wasn't there?
Data is factual - unless you claim the numbers are forged.
Rhetoric is just that - a rhetoric.

Just look at the data. Look at the facts. Leave narrative to politicians and health authorities, since that is what they base their decisions on. You are free to think critically and consider actual facts. You won't get cancelled for that. Scientists are


----------



## 5Lgreenback

damian13ster said:


> That's why you don't focus on tokens. I understand our entire political system and media coverage focuses on tokens, but it is very counterproductive. You look at 200 jurisdictions across the world. And the verdict is clear. Government intervention has zero effect on deaths and severe illnesses from COVID. Zooming in on a single data point really clouds the view when you have 200 of them available.


In the podcast I mentioned previously, the investigative writer uses Canadian government data to prove that government restrictions and policies are in fact the main contributors to COVID deaths. So I would take your assertion one step further.

How much more lies and censorship will it take here folks? When has stopping scientific debate and trampling on human rights and freedoms in the name of a greater good EVER ended well?

The Canadian surgeon mentioned he wants to be on the right side of history during his recorded firing. But I'm afraid with path that we are on, history is being written by the wrong people.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> An estimated 130,000 Palestinians working in Israel is "a limited number" ? Israel just started vaccinating the workers a couple of months ago.
> 
> The vaccine offer was for vaccines on the verge of expiration in return for the Palestinian Pfizer supply in the future.
> 
> Not surprising the Palestinians refused the offer. The virus also doesn't respect borders.


Fake news again! Estimated 130,000 Palestinians were working in Israel in 2019. The current number (because of Covid) is just over 50,000.. and they received their 1st dose in the beginning of March. Because Israel strictly following Pfizer procedure, All palestinins with work permits should've been vaccinated end of March! This is when I got ONLY my 1st dose because I'm and live in hot zone... and I didn't get 2nd dose yet. So, Palestinian workers got fully vaccinated 3+ months than majority of Canadians!


https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/over-50-000-palestinians-with-israeli-work-permits-received-first-covid-vaccine-1.9623474



You are so anti0Semitic that spread out all possible lies!

Again, those vaccine weren't expired! Canada extended expiration date of expired AZ vaccines by 1 month and put it into Canadians' arms!


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> March! This is when I got ONLY my 1st dose because I'm and live in hot zone... and I didn't get 2nd dose yet.


According to health Canada the longer you wait between doses the better immunity you will get.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> According to health Canada the longer you wait between doses the better immunity you will get.


Even if this BS would be true, Palestinians foreign workers in Israel, got 1st dose earlier than 55+ Canadians living in hot Zones! Also, all palestinians got best vaccine from Pfizer, millions of Canadians got inferior AZ...


btw, _Approximately 613,200 *foreign* nationals in *Canada* held work permits in 2016 , _so, when Covid started Canada has huge number of foreign workers, how do they got vaccinated? Do they have some kind of OHIP card?


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Naomi Wolf - 'The left and the right need to unite and fight authoritarianism and for the constitution'.






And more detailed discussion with her in a podcast below. She is far more worried about Canada and the UK than she is for America and I agree. Many states are just no longer buying the lies and living life as per normal.

She has documented evidence of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation paying tens of millions of dollars to mainstream media outlets yearly, as well as social media influencers. The idea being that the message has to be based around vaccines and vaccines only, disguised as science. They have also been caught funding gain of function research.

Zuckerberg and Fauci communications and millions of dollars being spent on a collaborated goal of covid messaging.

She got removed from social media platforms for asking a basic journalistic question, where do the vaccines spike proteins end up?

When critical thinkers from multiple political spectrums are raising alarms and uniting to try and break through the censorship, something important (and very wrong) is probably going on.

Anyways I would say its another very important listen.









EPISODE 55: NAOMI WOLF — Trish Wood Is Critical


Special-release interview with author, feminist and freedom campaigner Naomi Wolf, who was just suspended again by Twitter. Her high-profile account questions lockdowns, authoritarian government and public health officials, and their policies, that cause more harm than good.




www.trishwoodpodcast.com


----------



## sags

You keep listening to the conspiracy nuts and your brain cells will die.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

^ Irony.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

I really want to know the answer.
*What Are The Long-Term Safety Risks Of The Pfizer and Moderna Covid-19 Vaccines?*


----------



## andrewf

kcowan said:


> In the case of the Pfizer jab, one jab produce 33% efficacy versus Delta but two doses produces 88% efficacy. We should have done the second jab for the highly vulnerable first and not afer four months. What bothers me most is that the people who decided that strategy will get off scot free for the added deaths.


Delta isn't the dominant strain in much of Canada. It won't be for another couple months.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> You look at the narrative instead of data.
> Focus on the facts.
> Data shows restrictions didn't work.
> We all know what is happening to scientists that claim government is acting mindlessly so of course narrative will be affected.
> Do you think the study would exist if that statement wasn't there?
> Data is factual - unless you claim the numbers are forged.
> Rhetoric is just that - a rhetoric.
> 
> Just look at the data. Look at the facts. Leave narrative to politicians and health authorities, since that is what they base their decisions on. You are free to think critically and consider actual facts. You won't get cancelled for that. Scientists are


If restrictions and distancing didn't work, we would have hit 100% infection a long time ago.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> I really want to know the answer.
> *What Are The Long-Term Safety Risks Of The Pfizer and Moderna Covid-19 Vaccines?*


 ... why when you concluded at the verrrry beginning that we're "experimental" rats anyways?

Besides, don't think you'll get any conclusive/definite answers, even from the "experts". It's a case of live and learn. Remember "we're an experiment"!


----------



## Spudd

andrewf said:


> Delta isn't the dominant strain in much of Canada. It won't be for another couple months.


It is in Ontario, though. 








Ontario Dashboard - Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table


NOTICE: This website is no longer updated.If you have questions about previously published Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table resources, please email [email protected] Current Status in Ontario Contents Current Status in Ontario Current COVID-19 Risk in Ontario by Vaccination Status...




covid19-sciencetable.ca


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> I really want to know the answer.
> *What Are The Long-Term Safety Risks Of The Pfizer and Moderna Covid-19 Vaccines?*











How Do We Know the COVID-19 Vaccine Won’t Have Long-Term Side Effects?


One of the reasons some people haven’t signed up to receive the COVID-19 vaccine is that they’re worried there might be unknown side effects that will show up months or years later. Although it’s true there are still a lot of things we’re learning about the vaccines — like how effective they are...




www.muhealth.org


----------



## :) lonewolf

Beaver101 said:


> ... why when you concluded at the verrrry beginning that we're "experimental" rats anyways?
> 
> Besides, don't think you'll get any conclusive/definite answers, even from the "experts". It's a case of live and learn. Remember "we're an experiment"!


9 out of 10 sheep wear their mask deprive their brain of oxygen & trust in government & big pharma. Google Pfizer criminal record. These guys are up their with Hitler for crimes against humanity. How many vaccines has Moderna been successful of producing ?

If the gene cocktails are safe why are the drug dealers granted immunity ? Gates on a Ted talk said on a Ted talk they can reduce the worlds population with vaccines. (not exact wording).

Marching to Stalin's or hailing Hitler's with out asking questions how well has that worked in the past? Why are they censoring people regarding negative side effects?


----------



## Beaver101

^ Then you can continue hiding in the basement fixated with your dark matter search. You do realize Hitler and Stalin have been dead in the last century and that your reference there is getting old. And with Gates, he's being divorced. You can go comment over there.


----------



## Spudd

5Lgreenback said:


> Canadian surgeon that was brave enough to want to give parents and kids proper informed consent, with regards to the jabs, recorded his firing. He was just following the protocol on the corrupt WHO website as he stated in the audio, warning of not using the vax on those under 18. Clearly the facts don't fit the needle in every arm at all costs agenda. Judge for yourselves:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2021-06-23_08-26-55.wav
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile on the WHO website:
> 
> "WHO SHOULD GET VACCINATED
> 
> The Covid-19 Vaccines are safe for most people 18 years and older...."


According to the news, and according to your sound file, he was suspended, not fired. They also said (in the sound file, I don't think it's mentioned in the news article) they are going to continue to pay him while they perform the investigation.








USask suspends doctor calling for ‘informed consent’ for mRNA vaccines | Globalnews.ca


The University of Saskatchewan has suspended Dr. Francis Christian, who says he is pro-vaccine, after he questions the lack of informed consent for the mRNA vaccine.




globalnews.ca





In the meeting they said he was actively trying to convince high school kids not to get vaccinated. That is different from calling for informed consent.

He also said in the meeting that WHO said children below 18 should not be vaccinated but here is the WHO document on the mRNA vaccines, and it specifically says that people 12-18 should be prioritized after high-risk groups, but that the vaccine is recommended for all people 12+. He is straight-up wrong or lying about this.








Interim recommendations for use of the Pfizer–BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine, BNT162b2, under Emergency Use Listing


Publicaciones de la Organización Mundial de la Salud




www.who.int







WHO said:


> Children and adolescents below the age of 16 years For children and adolescents COVID-19 is rarely severe. Evidence suggests that adolescents, particularly older adolescents, are as likely to transmit SARS-CoV-2 as adults. WHO recommends that countries should consider using BNT162b2 in children aged 12 to 15 only when high vaccine coverage with 2 doses has been achieved in the high priority groups as identified in the WHO Prioritization Roadmap. Children 12-15 years of age with comorbidities that put them at significantly higher risk of serious COVID-19 disease, alongside other high-risk groups, may be offered vaccination. There are currently no efficacy or safety data for children below the age of 12 years. Until such data are available, individuals below 12 years of age should not be routinely vaccinated.


----------



## MrMatt

Spudd said:


> In the meeting they said he was actively trying to convince high school kids not to get vaccinated. That is different from calling for informed consent.


It is only consent if it is informed consent.
But people with an agenda don't like informed consent.

Well if you provide information that the risks outweight the benefits aren't you simultaneously informing and convincing?

Providing the information that the risks outweight the benefits _IS_ convincing people not to undertake that action.

For example, providing informatin on the risks of drunk driving is an attempt to convince people not to drink and drive.

Just like people fight against providing information on abortions, or vaccines, or climate change.
The very first step is control the flow of information.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> According to the news, and according to your sound file, he was suspended, not fired. They also said (in the sound file, I don't think it's mentioned in the news article) they are going to continue to pay him while they perform the investigation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> USask suspends doctor calling for ‘informed consent’ for mRNA vaccines | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The University of Saskatchewan has suspended Dr. Francis Christian, who says he is pro-vaccine, after he questions the lack of informed consent for the mRNA vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the meeting they said he was actively trying to convince high school kids not to get vaccinated. That is different from calling for informed consent.
> 
> He also said in the meeting that WHO said children below 18 should not be vaccinated but here is the WHO document on the mRNA vaccines, and it specifically says that people 12-18 should be prioritized after high-risk groups, but that the vaccine is recommended for all people 12+. He is straight-up wrong or lying about this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interim recommendations for use of the Pfizer–BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine, BNT162b2, under Emergency Use Listing
> 
> 
> Publicaciones de la Organización Mundial de la Salud
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.who.int


The WHO either is contradicting themselves, or they changed their stance again without providing clear data and reasoning for doing so. 

I have a screen shot of the site showing for 18 years and older on my phone from 3 days ago. 

The not being "fired' is a technicality, he's not able to perform his job as an academic, and its pretty clear he should be looking into fixing another source of income very soon.


----------



## MrMatt

I think the real issue is that he's expressing concerns.
They may be legitimate, they may not be.

However the heavy handed manner in which they deal with criticism is problematic.
This is pretty clear cut, almost no teens died from COVID, is there really a justification to push this vaccine on them?


----------



## gibor365

Israel records over 300 new daily COVID cases for first time since April


Serious cases climb to 29; over 16,000 vaccine doses administered Wednesday amid race to inoculate children and teens




www.google.ca


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> Israel records over 300 new daily COVID cases for first time since April
> 
> 
> Serious cases climb to 29; over 16,000 vaccine doses administered Wednesday amid race to inoculate children and teens
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.ca


It would be interesting to know how many of those people were unvaccinated or half vaccinated.
it is advantageous for the government that want to vaccinate as many people as possible to give this kind of information, unless of course there was no difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated.


----------



## sags

The problem is that everyone is throwing around data from an old virus that has mutated into the new strains that are circulating.

This is a new disease they are dealing with, so the old statistics of what happened in the past with the old virus no longer apply.

It is going to take time to accumulate data on the predominant Delta virus and any other new strains that arrive on the scene.

In short, everyone is guessing what is going to happen. Anyone who claims they know is full of BS.

What we do know without equivocation is that with each mutation, the virus has become highly more infectious, more resistant to vaccine, and is affecting consistently younger age groups with increasingly severe symptoms. The young were rarely affected by the original COVID virus but that is no longer the case.

Throw out the old rule book. It is a different game now.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Indian “Delta“ variant detected in 98 countries, continues to evolve and mutate, warns WHO.
It’s spreading quickly in countries with low and high vaccination coverage. *


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> If restrictions and distancing didn't work, we would have hit 100% infection a long time ago.


No we wouldn't. Not every exposure to the virus results in infection. If you get exposed to concentration that is below level necessary for infection, then you build up immunity to it without actually getting infected. 
Also, vast majority of infections are actually symptom-free. People wouldn't be aware they have infection, they wouldn't be tested, and therefore wouldn't show in statistics.
Lastly, even if you have certain symptoms, it was hard to get tested even if you were willing to, for vast majority of the pandemic. And then there is significant amount of people who wouldn't get tested anyway and just get through the sickness at home.

Even if 100% of population got infected (they wouldn't) then relatively small percentage of the infections would ever be diagnosed and you wouldn't have a clue about them.


----------



## :) lonewolf

MrMatt said:


> It is only consent if it is informed consent.
> But people with an agenda don't like informed consent.
> 
> Well if you provide information that the risks outweight the benefits aren't you simultaneously informing and convincing?
> 
> Providing the information that the risks outweight the benefits _IS_ convincing people not to undertake that action.
> 
> For example, providing informatin on the risks of drunk driving is an attempt to convince people not to drink and drive.
> 
> Just like people fight against providing information on abortions, or vaccines, or climate change.
> The very first step is control the flow of information.


Under the Nuremburg law the risks of the experimental gene therapy must be given to those receiving it. Anyone that pressures anyone to take the gene therapy is breaking Nuremburg laws.


----------



## damian13ster

NACI says to wait on 2nd mRNA COVID-19 shot for those with rare heart inflammation - National | Globalnews.ca


The National Advisory Committee on Immunization (NACI) updated its recommendations Friday.




globalnews.ca





You get to be 2nd class citizen for a while longer.
Unless you decide to listen to Tam instead of naci - she says to get the second dose


----------



## :) lonewolf

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Indian “Delta“ variant detected in 98 countries, continues to evolve and mutate, warns WHO.
> It’s spreading quickly in countries with low and high vaccination coverage. *


Gain of function with creating viruses or over hyping the dangers of a virus. Create a market for vaccines. Hide the danger by calling gene therapy "vaccines". Use Gene Therapy for further gain of function. Be granted immunity for gain of function while being paid by tax payers around the glob. Trust in the drug dealers, Like LAPD they know how to treat you like a King (Rodney King)


----------



## Spudd

:) lonewolf said:


> Under the Nuremburg law the risks of the experimental gene therapy must be given to those receiving it. Anyone that pressures anyone to take the gene therapy is breaking Nuremburg laws.


I'm not too concerned about that since the Nuremberg laws were Nazi laws which are no longer valid.








Nuremberg Laws - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Anyway, if you'd gotten your vaccine already, you'd know that they give you a sheet of paper with the known risks and you have to acknowledge and agree. If you don't, you don't get the vaccine.


----------



## Money172375

My second shot is kicking my a**. And my first did too. AZ, followed by Moderna.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> My second shot is kicking my a**. And my first did too. AZ, followed by Moderna.


Great, AZ was really rough for me as well.
I get my - mRNA (Microchip Remote Network Access) in a few hours.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Money172375 said:


> My second shot is kicking my a**. And my first did too. AZ, followed by Moderna.


 Treatment is worse than disease.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> My second shot is kicking my a**. And my first did too. AZ, followed by Moderna.


That what my wife had, AZ and then Moderna .... Ever though he's very healthy, she got fever for almost 3 days and other nasty stuff ...

Today , on the 4th attempt , I got 2nd dose of Pfizer at Trillium Health partners (UTM). Good thing that they are not related to Ontario website, where Ford and Elliot wanted to put into me only Moderna


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> got 2nd dose of Pfizer


What good is it gonna do with four months interval?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Canada had 226 new cases one year ago. No vaccines yet.
And 344 now with vaccines.

Greece is offering young adults 150 euros ($219 Cdn) in credit after their first jab.
In Russia some places offer $30 Cdn for taking the vaccine, many places made it mandatory to be vaccinated to keep the job (despite the later reassurance from Putin that vaccine won’t be mandatory).


----------



## sags

I had more symptoms with the second dose as well. First dose was Pfizer and second was Moderna.

I think it might be the vaccines are kicking into overdrive and that creates some inflammation and the resultant aches and pains.

Hopefully it is a sign the vaccine is working.


----------



## sags

The longer there are un-vaccinated people spreading the virus, the more mutations could evolve that put everyone at risk.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> The longer there are un-vaccinated people spreading the virus, the more mutations could evolve that put everyone at risk.


Un vaccinated people are not going anywhere anytime soon. Some people can’t get vaccinated, some people don’t want to get vaccinated. I would say it’s likely that by the wintertime vaccine will need an upgrade.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> What good is it gonna do with four months interval?


Actually I had less than 3 months interval... better this than nothing


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> Actually I had less than 3 months interval... better this than nothing


I thought you said that you had your first shot in March.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Scott Livingstone, CEO of the Saskatchewan Health Authority, said on Tuesday asking somebody for proof of COVID-19 vaccination would violate the province's Health Information Protection Act.

"Even giving your health card number is personal health information. Banks are not allowed to ask for your health card number and nobody else is for a form of ID," said Livingstone. "It is personal information, and so is vaccination status."


----------



## Money172375

Ukrainiandude said:


> Scott Livingstone, CEO of the Saskatchewan Health Authority, said on Tuesday asking somebody for proof of COVID-19 vaccination would violate the province's Health Information Protection Act.
> 
> "Even giving your health card number is personal health information. Banks are not allowed to ask for your health card number and nobody else is for a form of ID," said Livingstone. "It is personal information, and so is vaccination status."


I think this is common knowledge. only ones who can ask, will ask, and have always asked are border crossings agents in some countries. They can choose who to let in or not.


----------



## :) lonewolf

sags said:


> I had more symptoms with the second dose as well. First dose was Pfizer and second was Moderna.
> 
> I think it might be the vaccines are kicking into overdrive and that creates some inflammation and the resultant aches and pains.
> 
> Hopefully it is a sign the vaccine is working.


 Heart inflammation so you can be more heart


----------



## Ukrainiandude

:) lonewolf said:


> Heart inflammation so you can be more heart


The long-term effects of SARS-CoV-2-associated myocarditis are not known, but as summarized above for viral myocarditis could include heart failure, impaired exercise tolerance, atrial tachyarrhythmias, ventricular tachyarrhythmias, bradyarrhythmias and sudden cardiac death. Subclinical myocarditis may portend a particularly high risk for sudden death during moderate-to-high intensity physical activity, raising concern and a cautionary note in the athletic community.

I guess the same will apply to the vaccine induced myocarditis.
Good luck to those brave enough to get the second shot of mRNA vaccines.


----------



## damian13ster

It is especially evil in case of teenagers and someone in their early 20s.
Either increase your risk of sudden death and heart problems, or become 2nd class citizen. All to avoid a virus that has no chance of killing you looking at death numbers for this age group.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Something that they probably not gonna tell you at the vaccination centres. 75% people after the second Pfizer shot got side effects, and 82% after Moderna. To mitigate side effects take Tylenol, this will not decrease your immunity.


----------



## Eder

Stop being such pussies...go get your vaccine. I'm sorry you might have an owwie on your arm or a headache, but its time to step up for the greater good and not be so selfish.


----------



## damian13ster

Eder said:


> Stop being such pussies...go get your vaccine. I'm sorry you might have an owwie on your arm or a headache, but its time to step up for the greater good and not be so selfish.


People are worried about dying from myocarditis or blood clots, not a sore arm.
Your message can be reworded by replacing a word 'vaccine' with 'COVID' for young people.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> I thought you said that you had your first shot in March.


No, April 19, so interval a bit less than 11 weeks


----------



## gibor365

Being fully vaccinated is giving us some chance to travel abroad


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> It would be interesting to know how many of those people were unvaccinated or half vaccinated.
> it is advantageous for the government that want to vaccinate as many people as possible to give this kind of information, unless of course there was no difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated.


Week ago I've read that 1/3 were fully vaccinated


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Canada had 226 new cases one year ago. No vaccines yet.
> And 344 now with vaccines.
> 
> Greece is offering young adults 150 euros ($219 Cdn) in credit after their first jab.
> In Russia some places offer $30 Cdn for taking the vaccine, many places made it mandatory to be vaccinated to keep the job (despite the later reassurance from Putin that vaccine won’t be mandatory).


Considering how much cost to system even 1 person that goes to ICU, it makes sense.

_As of Monday, people in Moscow are now required to show to show proof of vaccination, a negative PCR test result or proof of a past Covid-19 infection in the last six months to be allowed entry to the city's cafes and restaurants.- _
It's better than just ban indoor dining for many many months.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Chinese vaccine seems to have the fewest and weakest side effects among those approved by WHO, and been effective nevertheless.
A large phase 3 trial in Brazil showed that two doses (Sinovac-CoronaVac vaccine), administered at an interval of 14 days, had an efficacy of 51% against symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection, 100% against severe COVID-19, and 100% against hospitalization starting 14 days after receiving the second dose.
but of course Pfizer, Moderna lobby is much stronger here.
For the CoronaVac vaccine, injection site pain and soreness was the most common side effect, reported by 17 to 21 percent of people who received various doses of the vaccines. 

In most cases, the reactions were mild and resolved within 2 days. There was one case in the phase 1 trial for the vaccine where a recipient developed an allergic skin reaction with welts but was treated with antihistamines and steroids and resolved in 3 days. 

Systemic reactions that affected more than just the injection site included:


fatigue
diarrhea
muscle weakness
These symptoms were reported *far less than injection site pain*, according to trial data.

plus it’s much cheaper 
CoronaVac, the vaccine developed by the Chinese pharmaceutical company Sinovac Biotech, costs as little as $5 per dose
Vs $20 Pfizer and $35 Moderna


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Chinese vaccine seems to have the fewest and weakest side effects among those approved by WHO, and been effective nevertheless.


Source?

You know, I think it would save people a lot of time if you either posted sources for a factual claim, or if you just didn't bother posting stuff that looks like it was just made up.

If the Chinese vaccine is so great, why are the ports backing up?








Congestion at South China ports worsens on anti-COVID-19 measures


Congestion at container shipping ports in southern China is worsening as authorities step up disinfection measures amid a flare-up in COVID-19 cases, causing the biggest backlog since at least 2019.




www.reuters.com


----------



## :) lonewolf

Eder said:


> Stop being such pussies...go get your vaccine. I'm sorry you might have an owwie on your arm or a headache, but its time to step up for the greater good and not be so selfish.


The witch hunt continues lock down the healthy make them wear masks with the conjob. Just like in Nazi Germany turn the other way Life is good until they start coming after you.

Eder maybe you should be more concerned about the dangers you have now put others in ? The vaccinated are putting the none vaccinated @ risk with their shedding. The degree of the risk is questionable. With the sudden deaths & black outs from the vaccines are the vaccinated safe to be driving or piloting planes with the increase in blood clots ?


----------



## 5Lgreenback

damian13ster said:


> It is especially evil in case of teenagers and someone in their early 20s.
> Either increase your risk of sudden death and heart problems, or become 2nd class citizen. All to avoid a virus that has no chance of killing you looking at death numbers for this age group.


Yet people still aren't asking *why*?

If we allowed treatment of Covid 19 in patients who contract it, then already low rates of death would be dropped down to insignificant or lower than the common flu (86% reduction in hospitalization and death). How are we allowing this to happen? This illness, has been proven to be a very treatable disease! Yet most western countries policies (often threatening doctors with their careers) are; let the disease progress until its too late to treat with any acceptable level of success.

Better yet we could provide Ivermectin as prophylaxis and squash the incoming fall lockdowns and propaganda turning people against each other rather than our corrupted leaders and institutions.

It always circles back to making vaccines the only viable solution for *everyone* at all costs with immense suppression of any science that shows how deadly and unethical that is, let alone that there is safer alternatives.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*COVID vaccine only 64% effective against Indian “Delta” variant - Israeli research
Coronavirus cabinet to consider new restrictions today * Ministry says no booster shot for the general public yet.*
Earlier in the day, Prime Minister Naftali Bennett announced Israel will conduct research to understand more about the Pfizer vaccine’s efficacy after a high number of virus carriers identified since the beginning of the outbreak were fully vaccinated – between 39 and 51% in the past week.
According to health officials, some 90% of current cases in the country are of the Delta variant. Among those infected, almost half are schoolchildren, and a significant percentage were already fully vaccinated.
However, the rate of unvaccinated patients among those who are currently in serious condition is drastically decreasing: on Sunday, the patients in serious conditions who were not vaccinated stood at 57.1% - including one child and one pregnant woman. In the past few months, they were almost 90%.

Among the patients hospitalized, the rate stood at 52.9%.

Rambam Medical Center in Haifa said that of the six patients hospitalized in their coronavirus ward, only one was not inoculated.

Four patients in serious conditions – all of them over 75 - were fully immunized, as is a woman who just gave birth and is in mild condition.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

^ I'm seeing more and more evidence that within the healthy and/ or younger population, natural immunity is the way to go. And if we allow early treatment of patients with covid this would be indisputable. 

But thats not an option, and people are okay with the unnecessary deaths and suffering🤔

Que the news spin on this all being due to people who opted out of the experimental jabs.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> *COVID vaccine only 64% effective against Indian “Delta” variant - Israeli research
> Coronavirus cabinet to consider new restrictions today * Ministry says no booster shot for the general public yet.*
> Earlier in the day, Prime Minister Naftali Bennett announced Israel will conduct research to understand more about the Pfizer vaccine’s efficacy after a high number of virus carriers identified since the beginning of the outbreak were fully vaccinated – between 39 and 51% in the past week.
> According to health officials, some 90% of current cases in the country are of the Delta variant. Among those infected, almost half are schoolchildren, and a significant percentage were already fully vaccinated.
> However, the rate of unvaccinated patients among those who are currently in serious condition is drastically decreasing: on Sunday, the patients in serious conditions who were not vaccinated stood at 57.1% - including one child and one pregnant woman. In the past few months, they were almost 90%.
> 
> Among the patients hospitalized, the rate stood at 52.9%.
> 
> Rambam Medical Center in Haifa said that of the six patients hospitalized in their coronavirus ward, only one was not inoculated.
> 
> Four patients in serious conditions – all of them over 75 - were fully immunized, as is a woman who just gave birth and is in mild condition.


Today Israel reported 500 new cases, 2 weeks ago they had single digits! Looks like neither vaccinations nor lockdowns are going to stop this virus. I'm pretty sure that Canada is going to have huge 4th wave in beginning of fall regardless of vaccination %.
*We have to admit, China won the battle! *


----------



## :) lonewolf

sags said:


> The problem is that everyone is throwing around data from an old virus that has mutated into the new strains that are circulating.
> 
> This is a new disease they are dealing with, so the old statistics of what happened in the past with the old virus no longer apply.
> 
> It is going to take time to accumulate data on the predominant Delta virus and any other new strains that arrive on the scene.
> 
> In short, everyone is guessing what is going to happen. Anyone who claims they know is full of BS.
> 
> What we do know without equivocation is that with each mutation, the virus has become highly more infectious, more resistant to vaccine, and is affecting consistently younger age groups with increasingly severe symptoms. The young were rarely affected by the original COVID virus but that is no longer the case.
> 
> Throw out the old rule book. It is a different game now.


The game is the same follow the money. Those with money buy the rules & promote their propaganda. Of course the young that have received the vaccine are going to have more trouble with their health.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

This is how much you can trust pharmaceutical companies 
Israel's health ministry said Monday July 5, the effectiveness of the COVID-19 shot developed by BioNTech SE BNTX, -5.21% and Pfizer Inc. PFE, -1.68% is now thought to be 64% at preventing symptomatic infections in that country. The vaccine had an efficacy rate of about 95% in clinical trials back in 2020; however, the emergence of the more transmissible delta variant in Israel has weakened the overall effectiveness of the shot, according to a statement posted on Twitter.
vs
June 24 (Reuters) - The Pfizer-BioNTech >PFE.N< vaccine is highly effective against the Delta variant of COVID-19, a Pfizer official in Israel said on Thursday.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

https://docs.gatesfoundation.org/Documents/A-01_BMGF%20Form%20990-PF_TR_19%20PD.pdf



The best way to hide a "conspiracy" is in plain site. Its pretty clear that this foundation uses 'humanitarian purposes' to hide its agenda of global power and influence in the world of health care policy, drugs/ vaccines and increasingly to control the worlds food supply with its use of force and influence in agricultural industries around the world. 

The above link shows billions of dollars being spent in their 990 tax filings to numerous institutions around the world including multiple 10's of millions of dollars to fund institutions in China.

Dr. McCullough was threatened by a French reporter after his TEXAS senate hearing. He and his families safety were also recently threatened by an entity in Singapore. Dr McCullough's organization traced the entity uttering threats to be directly linked to the Gates Foundation. 

Dr. Byron Bridle (the canadian) who spoke out has recently gone silent, I have little doubt he and his family were threatened.

This is all out there for those willing to look. It's no longer just 'conspiracy theorists' raising the alarms with this foundation. Naomi Wolf, a famous controversial feminist has even decided to look for herself and find it to be true.

Vandana Shiva and environmental and food sovereignty activist has also been trying to expose Gates for quite a while now as well. 






If more people don't start speaking out, I'm afraid mandatory injections are coming, as some other countries have already done.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

And the corruption of the WHO and major tech platforms as well as Wikipedia continues.






Its also interesting to note that Wikipedia had Dr Robert Malone as the inventor of mrna vaccines in early June. But after his podcast with Bret Wienstien they removed that credit. Coincidence I'm sure.

Trial Site News started in 2018 to raise awareness and access to data of pharmaceutical trials for drugs/ vaccines etc.


----------



## Spudd

I thought I would just post this video talking about the myocarditis side effect and how that affects the decision to vaccinate children. Since apparently some people only listen to YouTube.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Saskatchewan reported 14 new COVID-19 cases, one death and 60 recoveries on Tuesday.
As of Tuesday, 71 per cent of those 12 years and older have received their first dose, while 49 per cent are fully vaccinated.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Interesting, I did not know this.
It was U.S. medical professionals who first discovered in December that they could get six doses — as opposed to five — from each vial of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine by using special syringes that trap less vaccine around the needle after an injection.

The discovery was initially heralded as a way to stretch the precious vaccine even further.

*Then the company stepped in to note its contracts are for doses, not vials: If a recipient can get six doses instead of five, then Pfizer-BioNTech can ship fewer vials and still fulfil their contractual obligation.*

Deputy chief public health officer Dr. Howard Njoo says Health Canada is still reviewing the request to formally change the label to reflect that it contains six doses and is examining whether that sixth dose can be extracted consistently.

The problem is, the type of syringes needed to get six doses from the vial are in short supply.

Greedy pharmaceuticals


----------



## james4beach

Today I visited a pop-up vaccination clinic and was denied a second shot. I am going to try another one in an hour.

They told me I was too early, since I'm 6 weeks after my first dose. Apparently I have to be at least 7 weeks to qualify for a second shot.

I told them that I need to visit and help out my parents, who are elderly... but they still said no.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

As of July 3, the latest date for which data was available, the Indian variant accounted for 51.7 percent of new Covid-19 cases that had been genetically sequenced in the country. Two weeks earlier, on June 19, the variant accounted for just over 30 percent of new cases.
In addition to the U.S., the Indian variant has been detected in 103 countries and is predicted to become the dominant variant globally.
BERLIN — Germany’s disease control center says the Indian variant of the coronavirus has become dominant in the country and continues to quickly spread.
The Robert Koch Institute says according to their latest analysis, 59% of new infections were caused by Indian variant by the end of last month. The center says in its weekly report Wednesday, the Indian variant had nearly doubled within one week.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> Apparently I have to be at least 7 weeks


mRNA or Astra Zeneca?


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> mRNA or Astra Zeneca?


I'm trying to get my second MRNA shot. I will take either one, Pfizer or Moderna.

BC is very strict about their second shot timing, apparently. And I'm trying! I'm heading out the door in a few minutes and that will be my third clinic attempt.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> I'm trying to get my second MRNA shot. I will take either one, Pfizer or Moderna.
> 
> BC is very strict about their second shot timing, apparently. And I'm trying! I'm heading out the door in a few minutes and that will be my third clinic attempt.


mRNA should be 3-4 weeks apart between shots.
Where is 7 week interval coming from?


----------



## damian13ster

Ukrainiandude said:


> mRNA should be 3-4 weeks apart between shots.
> Where is 7 week interval coming from?


From same source 16 week interval came from - idiots


----------



## bgc_fan

So, for those who like to point to vaccination numbers as examples of vaccine success, not all vaccines are created equally. Chile had one of the highest vaccination rates using the Sinovac vaccine and had a bit of a spike after the fact. Covid-19: Spike in cases in Chile is blamed on people mixing after first vaccine shot

Of course, the efficacy of the vaccine is a bit questionable: Lead Sinovac vaccine scientist in Indonesia dies of suspected Covid-19, media say

Just to point out that this is the "traditional" inactivated virus type vaccine.


----------



## OptsyEagle

We do have to stop looking at infections as a sign of success or failure of vaccines. The problem with the infection numbers is that vaccines "cannot prevent infection". They never could. No vaccines do that. The virus can still get into a person's breathing tracks. 

What vaccines can do is improve a person's immune response to speed up how quickly it neutralizes the virus. In most cases that will happen before a person even has symptoms and many times, before they even become infectious. In other cases, where the vaccinated person exposes themselves longer to the virus (gets a larger viral dose) they may experience some symptoms before their bodies fights off the virus, with most of those times the symptoms coming more from your own immune response then the direct effects of the virus itself.

In a few rare cases (as a percentage of infections), usually caused by co-morbidity issues of the infected person, a person may may die.

In any case, only hospitalizations and deaths of vaccinated people will shed any real light on the performance of these vaccines. In most articles we read, they muddy the information even more by including the larger number of unvaccinated infections and then talking about the percentage of the population vaccinated to indicate a failure of the vaccines. Again, totally useless and misleading information.

You see what I mean? If you delve deeper into the issue, you cannot help but see that the vaccines are working better then we could ever dream of. So please, do yourself a favour. Get yourself 2 shots of vaccine and go on with your life.


----------



## bgc_fan

Or go for 3 or 4 shots because your first 2 weren't on the approved list: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-vaccine-expatriates-canada-quarantine-1.6093842

Edit: Just to add we should not see the same issues UK have because we've started vaccinating younger people earlier and didn't jump the gun on opening up. Canada not doomed to fourth wave of COVID-19, doctors say, despite U.K.'s experience


----------



## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> So, for those who like to point to vaccination numbers as examples of vaccine success, not all vaccines are created equally.* Chile had one of the highest vaccination rates using the Sinovac vaccine and had a bit of a spike after the fact*. Covid-19: Spike in cases in Chile is blamed on people mixing after first vaccine shot
> 
> Of course, the efficacy of the vaccine is a bit questionable: Lead Sinovac vaccine scientist in Indonesia dies of suspected Covid-19, media say
> 
> Just to point out that this is the "traditional" inactivated virus type vaccine.


All countries who had the highest vaccination rate , nowadays have a spike in new cases. A month ago or so, it was attributed that those countries used mostly AZ and Sinovac, but Israel has now a big spike and they used ONLY mRNA vaccines. Maybe this is because they practically finished full vaccination about 3 month ago and vaccines help lese and less when time pass? In this case, we gonna have spike in beginning of the fall


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> Israel has now a big spike


Mortality rate is still low in Israel. So vaccines are protecting. How long will it last we don’t know.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

If this was about "science", previously infected covid people would be given full freedoms back, as they have more robust and broad immunity than double vaxxers. Vaxxing these people can only compromise their health/ immunity.

If this was about "science" (and ethics) we wouldn't be giving experimental shots to pregnant women and children.

If this was about "science" they wouldn't be censoring peer reviewed papers and facts from being published showing issues with the vaccines, or that there are safe alternatives to vaccination. IE VAERS showing 7000+ deaths reported and 350000+ events in US. Previous audits of VAERS systems showed underreporting of deaths/ events by up to 10x.

If this was about "science" they wouldn't be breaking the laws using coercion and threats to get people vaccinated.

If this was about "science" they wouldn't have spread propaganda convincing vaxxed people they need to be scared of un vaxxed.

If this was about "science" they would release the full data of the major clinical trails, they would also disclose the secret deals made between big pharma and governments and the conflicts of interest riddled throughout WHO, NIH, FDA Gates Foundation etc etc and reveal all vaccine stake holders.

If this was about "science" the CDC would still be collecting "breakthrough" data numbers correctly. Unfortunately this would show that the vaccines are not very effective at stopping transmission.

If this was about "science" they would not be threatening jail time/ loss of license to doctors who are saving lives by giving early treatment for those who contract covid. This disease has proven to be very manageable if treated early. About 85% reduction in hospitalization and death. *How are people not questioning this?*

If this was about "science" *they would NOT be trying to force a needle in every arm. *


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Ukrainiandude said:


> Mortality rate is still low in Israel. So vaccines are protecting. How long will it last we don’t know.


It seems to be very low in non-vax as well.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Mortality rate is still low in Israel. So vaccines are protecting. How long will it last we don’t know.


Yes, Israel reported only 1 death in last several weeks and majority on new cases are mild. btw, Israel administered vaccine as per pharmas directions with 21/28 days intervals


----------



## bgc_fan

gibor365 said:


> All countries who had the highest vaccination rate , nowadays have a spike in new cases. A month ago or so, it was attributed that those countries used mostly AZ and Sinovac, but Israel has now a big spike and they used ONLY mRNA vaccines. Maybe this is because they practically finished full vaccination about 3 month ago and vaccines help lese and less when time pass? In this case, we gonna have spike in beginning of the fall


So, that's a possibility, in which case a case can be made for boosters. However, it could also be the fact that the delta variant started spreading fairly early when the vaccination rates weren't as high. Then again, my understanding is that the delta variant is hitting the younger population more... At any case, death rates are low despite the fourth wave.


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## gibor365

Yesterday Israel got 1st delta plus virus
_While the delta plus variant seems to be similar to the widespread delta variant, it is still unclear whether it is more contagious or dangerous than the delta variant. The delta plus variant is different in its spike protein on the surface of the virus, which enables the virus to bind to a cell and infect it.



The delta plus variant was first discovered in India, as was the delta variant, and has now been found in a number of other countries, including the United States and Britain. It is not apparent, however, whether it will become the dominant strain in those countries._


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Given that reinfection after csCOVID-19 seems rare, anyone who is within the CDC-specified period of time (27) from meeting the definition of a csCOVID-19 convalescent, and does not otherwise belong to a high-risk group (e.g., by age or immune status), should be protected and could delay the vaccination until the end of the CDC-specified period, or until there is enough vaccine available to vaccinate all susceptible individuals, who do not meet the above definition (whichever is shorter, with respect to other prioritization criteria, i.e., a first responder would be reprioritized once s/he is no longer considered protected).


https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/vim.2021.0054


----------



## damian13ster

European Union follows that. To get COVID passport, you either get a vaccine, or show positive COVID test at least 9 days prior. Either, or


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## Ukrainiandude

A new study has found that COVID-19 vaccines may be somewhat vulnerable to the California “Epsilon” strain of virus.

The variant has three spike protein mutations it uses to weaken current vaccines by up to 70 percent, according to researchers from University of Washington and the San Fransisco-based lab Vir Biotechnology.

The strain’s mutations break down neutralized antibodies, which are produced by vaccines such as Pfizer and Moderna and protect against infection, according to the study, published in the journal Science on July 1.

The spike mutations may also be able to side-step the naturally produced antibodies a person forms after being infected with the coronavirus, according to the report.

The effectiveness of current shots could be reduced by 50 to 70 percent against the strain, which was first found in May 2020, according to the study.


----------



## andrewf

I got my second dose on Tuesday evening--Moderna as expected. I had two days of feeling flu-ish, but feeling better now.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> I got my second dose on Tuesday evening--Moderna as expected. I had two days of feeling flu-ish, but feeling better now.


Congrats! Hopefully I can get my second shot soon.

Any tips relating to that flu like response? I suppose just resting a lot and taking it easy? I had Moderna as well.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> Any tips relating to that flu like response?


Tylenol


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Ukrainiandude said:


> Given that reinfection after csCOVID-19 seems rare, anyone who is within the CDC-specified period of time (27) from meeting the definition of a csCOVID-19 convalescent, and does not otherwise belong to a high-risk group (e.g., by age or immune status), should be protected and could delay the vaccination until the end of the CDC-specified period, or until there is enough vaccine available to vaccinate all susceptible individuals, who do not meet the above definition (whichever is shorter, with respect to other prioritization criteria, i.e., a first responder would be reprioritized once s/he is no longer considered protected).
> 
> 
> https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/vim.2021.0054


When many experts actually look into the the so called "double infection" cases, all of them can be attributed to faulty PCR testing. Out of millions of cases within the US they found maybe less than a dozen cases that 'might' be double infection.

If double infection was an issue we would have known this a long time ago, especially within nursing homes.

Sars Cov1 shows strong immunity *17 years* later in those who had it. Sars cov1 and cov2 are 80% the same virus.

This is a particular issue where I think we need to ask why the are being so dishonest. Previous infection immunity has shown to be very robust with cars cov2, and injecting toxic substances into previously infected people likely only adds health risks.

There seems to be a mission to inject everyone without question, so they don't have a control group perhaps?

I just read the CDC guidelines on what to do if your child gets pericarditis or myocarditis after the first dose:

"Wait for symptoms to subside before proceeding with second dose" WTF? Kids have 0 chance of dying from covid, this is insanity folks.

The health agencies lack of protocol for early treatment of covid-19 has cost millions of lives and untold suffering. They are stake holders within the mass vax program (making money off vaccines) I think its safe to say we should no longer be looking to them for guidance.


----------



## :) lonewolf

5Lgreenback said:


> Sars Cov1 shows strong immunity *17 years* later in those who had it. Sars cov1 and cov2 are 80% the same virus.


A few months back, Michael Yeadon former VP @ Pfizer calls the Covid variant "sammiants" or "scarriants" & says the virus has only changed point 3 percent since the original.

Trudeau is trying to push through bill C10 so everything can be censored that goes the agenda such as posting the truth about the Conjob & scarriants. legalize freedom. Google Pfizer's criminal history which should make any wonder why is Pfizer pushing for a booster shot for the sammiant ?

Keep it simple Follow the money which has worked for thousands of years. Over thousands of years just like the animals in the forest man has changed such a small amount it is not noticeable & follow the money still works.

Any negatives about the vaccines is censored, On Bitchute people have posted some good info on the vaccines. Think & judge using other sources as well that are not part of the mainstream media.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

:) lonewolf said:


> Trudeau is trying to push through bill C10 so everything can be censored that goes the agenda such as posting the truth about the Conjob & scarriants. legalize freedom. Google Pfizer's criminal history which should make any wonder why is Pfizer pushing for a booster shot for the sammiant ?


Bill C10 is awful Orwellian style legislation. Scary stuff.

Edit- I originally saw a Micheal Yeadon interview video over a year ago. I laughed him off as a wing nut. I have since come to find many specialists actually say the same facts as he did. Many of his statements one year later, have proven to be true. Aggressive suppression of repurposed drugs, the inevitable promotion of a 'booster' shot that would be unnecessary if the original shots were truly vaccines, lockdowns and fear instead of early treatment etc etc.


----------



## Beaver101

Quebec to impose COVID-19 'vaccine passport' system in September if infections rise - BNN Bloomberg

I wonder how many anti-vaxxers are there actually in Quebec despite the article says:


> ... _The Health Department said 113,084 doses of vaccine were administered Wednesday, and Quebec's public health institute said _*42.7 per cent of residents over 12 are considered adequately vaccinated. ..*.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> how many anti-vaxxers are there actually in Quebec


 I don’t know what is the situation 
but here everyone that wanted to get vaccinated, got vaccinated.
what is the purpose of vaccine passport if vaccinated people are protected


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> I don’t know what is the situation
> but here everyone that wanted to get vaccinated, got vaccinated.
> what is the purpose of vaccine passport if vaccinated people are protected


 ... you've to keep remembering first and foremost that 1) "the vaccine is NOT a silver bullet". And 2) if you read the article indepth:



> ... _Dube said the proposed health order *will allow the government to avoid imposing fresh lockdowns if cases begin to rise in the colder months, and he said it would permit businesses to operate despite having COVID-19 outbreaks. `It's an extra tool in our management of cases and contacts,[/B]'' he said. `We found an alternative to a generalized lockdown.''*
> 
> In a news release Thursday, the Health Department didn't provide a concrete list of places where the vaccine passport will be required, but it suggested it could be used at bars, gyms, restaurants, sporting events and festivals.
> 
> Should an outbreak at a gym occur, Dube said as an example, ``we're not closing the gym, we're saying that for a period, only the people that have a double dose can go to the gym. *It's a risk-management approach.''
> ...
> 
> She said it's reasonable to prevent someone who chose not to get vaccinated from visiting a bar for a specific period of time*. ``The limitations that they will face will be so minor, that I think for the common good, it's a very reasonable, proportional idea.'' _


 ... so bottomline: win-win (except for anti-vaxxers' view/beliefs).


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> bottomline


I still don’t understand the logic. People who who scared of covid and wanted get vaccinated, got vaccinated, and are protected.
people who chose to skip the vaccine, hey, everyone got a choice what to do with their life, are not protected and should get sick and die from covid that they don’t believe in. Hospital should not get overwhelmed 
Why for some anti vaccine people get the whole shutdown?
p.s. I actually enjoyed the complete shutdown in April last year, so quiet and clean.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> *I still don’t understand the logic.* People who who scared of covid and wanted get vaccinated, got vaccinated, and are protected.
> people who chose to skip the vaccine, hey, everyone got a choice what to do with their life, are not protected and should get sick and die from covid that they don’t believe in. Hospital should not get overwhelmed
> Why for some anti vaccine people get the whole shutdown?
> p.s. I actually enjoyed the complete shutdown in April last year, so quiet and clean.


 ... one word: infectious 
three words: pandemic not over


----------



## OptsyEagle

Ukrainiandude said:


> I don’t know what is the situation
> but here everyone that wanted to get vaccinated, got vaccinated.
> what is the purpose of vaccine passport if vaccinated people are protected


Your point is valid except for one thing and that is the idea that the unvaccinated will create another wave that will overwhelm the hospitals again. When that happens we all suffer accordingly. So in Quebec's case, the Premier is saying, if infections stay low and the hospitals don't get overwhelmed, then the unvaccinated can participate equally. If the opposite happens and if those infections are mostly coming from unvaccinated people, as they will be, then they will get shut out accordingly.

That is only fair.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

OptsyEagle said:


> unvaccinated will create another wave that will overwhelm the hospitals


Hospitals were overwhelmed with people over 60 or immunosuppressed , 90% of those are now vaccinated. Therefore no risk for hospitals.
Still why passports and why lockdowns?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ... one word: infectious
> three words: pandemic not over


Vaccinated people also infectious. 
What is your point?
pandemic won’t be over globally for some time yet. does not mean we gotta live in fear


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Hospitals were overwhelmed with people over 60 or immunosuppressed , 90% of those are now vaccinated. *Therefore no risk for hospitals.*
> Still why passports and why lockdowns?


 ... wow, that's saying there were no young folks being hospitalized. What a waste of vaccines to vaccinate as young as 12 years olds now.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Vaccinated people also infectious.
> What is your point?


 ... my point now is that you're refusing to see my earlier point made (several times) " the vaccine is not a silver bullet". 

Does it help to inform you that Pfizer has applied to the FDA for booster shots that are going to be manufactured too? Now don't freak out knowing the vaccine(s) can be perpetual.


> pandemic won’t be over globally for some time yet. does not mean we gotta live in fear


 ... then don't. Instead be brave, be a maverick - don't get vaccinated, don't wear a mask, don't do social distancing ...and stop complaining here or claiming your rights are being infringed.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> wow, that's saying there were no young folks being hospitalized. What a waste of vaccines to vaccinate as young as 12 years olds now.


Among 1,482 patients hospitalized with COVID-19, 74.5% were aged ≥50 years
Not nearly enough to get hospitals overwhelmed


----------



## Beaver101

^ Please re-read your above 2 statements. They don't jive.

And re-read your post #3041 with "therefore no risk for hospitals". I would only agree with this part if you said most of the patients overwhelming the hospitals were older people, only because they died. But to say "therefore no risk for hospitals" is blatantly false because for all we know the next batch to overwhelm (unless you know for a certainty there will not) will be younger patients.

Also, just taking your CDC-drafted graph above, it also means there was a 25.4% rate of hospitalization for <50 year olds, contributing to the "overwhelm or your interpretation of that graph". Talk about manipulating intepretation of data.

Don't forget to pay attention to the orange highlight text in the graph:


> *Everyone* especially older adults should: stay home (check), use face covering in public settings (check), wash hands frequently (check)


----------



## damian13ster

That's not rate of hospitalization. Who is manipulating data now?
Rate of hospitalization at highest point of pandemic was 9.6/100,000 for 18-49 year olds
1.5/100,000 for <18

That is percent of people hospitalized. Completely different information.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> Congrats! Hopefully I can get my second shot soon.
> 
> Any tips relating to that flu like response? I suppose just resting a lot and taking it easy? I had Moderna as well.


I wasn't afraid to use Tylenol. 

Not much to be done. Get some rest. I had to take a day off work (second day). I powered through the first day because I had too many meetings I couldn't miss. Thank god for WFH as I totally could not have gone to the office in that state.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> Hospitals were overwhelmed with people over 60 or immunosuppressed , 90% of those are now vaccinated. Therefore no risk for hospitals.
> Still why passports and why lockdowns?


Lockdown is ending. It is responsible to do it gradually and monitor. Other countries have had subsequent waves after mass vaccination. Let's not do that.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> blatantly false because for all we know the next batch to overwhelm (unless you know for a certainty there will not) will be younger patients.


So far there is increase in infection rates among young people, but rate of hospitalized patients very low among youths 
With only 25% people hospitalized outside of the risk group, even if half of those vaccinated, hospitals won’t get overwhelmed even if you were to lift all restrictions tomorrow.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> I got my second dose on Tuesday evening--Moderna as expected. I had two days of feeling flu-ish, but feeling better now.


I got both doses Pfizer.... no side effects at all ...after 1st dose, my arm was a bit sore, after 2nd - absolutely nothing


----------



## OptsyEagle

Ukrainiandude said:


> Hospitals were overwhelmed with people over 60 or immunosuppressed , 90% of those are now vaccinated. Therefore no risk for hospitals.
> Still why passports and why lockdowns?


I just explained it to you. You say that all those people that will cause us an issue are vaccinated by now but you do not know that, nor do our leaders. When the unvaccinated start getting infected again, in the fall, we have no idea if they will cause our hospitals to get overwhelmed or not.

Since we are both against lockdowns, you must agree that it makes sense, that if infections and hospitalizations start to rise, that we attempt to keep our economy open as much as possible and by just locking down the unvaccinated first. Perhaps that will be enough to avoid a total lockdown. Obviously we will need passports to achieve that.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

OptsyEagle said:


> hospitalizations start to rise, that we attempt to keep our economy open as much as possible and by just locking down the unvaccinated first


If hospitalization is going to rise among unvaccinated people, that would make sense for covid passports. Government lacks transparency and there is no information about how many unvaccinated among hospitalized.
p.s. Unvaccinated people made their choice, if they get sick, just let them die happily and rest in peace.


----------



## :) lonewolf

OptsyEagle said:


> I just explained it to you. You say that all those people that will cause us an issue are vaccinated by now but you do not know that, nor do our leaders. When the unvaccinated start getting infected again, in the fall, we have no idea if they will cause our hospitals to get overwhelmed or not.
> 
> Since we are both against lockdowns, you must agree that it makes sense, that if infections and hospitalizations start to rise, that we attempt to keep our economy open as much as possible and by just locking down the unvaccinated first. Perhaps that will be enough to avoid a total lockdown. Obviously we will need passports to achieve that.


How do you know its not going to be the vaccinated that are going to need to be locked down since they are the ones playing games with their immune system ?


----------



## :) lonewolf

Beaver101 said:


> . Instead be brave, be a maverick - don't get vaccinated, don't wear a mask, don't do social distancing ...and stop complaining here or claiming your rights are being infringed.


 I cant wear a mask my brain is to big it needs lots of oxygen


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> then don't. Instead be brave, be a maverick - don't get vaccinated, don't wear a mask, don't do social distancing ...and stop complaining here or claiming your rights are being infringed.


I don’t think people around wear masks, get vaccinated or distance because of fear of covid. It’s more like being frightened by your neighbours rating you out to the authorities. similar to the Nazi German, people were snitching on the Jews, not because they disliked them, but because the fear of authorities and the punishment.
Society of dobbers.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Deleted


----------



## gibor365

The authorities should introduce vaccination passport (like Israel did) and give more freedom to fully vaccinated people like attend bars, restaurants, sport and cultural events etc... Thus, more people would like to be vaccinated.
Truly, I don't give a [email protected] if people who don't want to be vaccinated die


----------



## damian13ster

What about those people who can't get vaccinated for valid medical reasons?
Should they also not be allowed to leave their house?
Or you simply don't give a **** if they do, or if they die?


----------



## james4beach

Good points from both @gibor365 and @damian13ster .... this is a tough one.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> If hospitalization is going to rise among unvaccinated people, that would make sense for covid passports. Government lacks transparency and there is no information about how many unvaccinated among hospitalized.
> *p.s. Unvaccinated people made their choice, if they get sick, just let them die happily and rest in peace.*


 ... seriously thanking lord that you're not a licensed medical doctor and merely trolling here. Just like the other poster agreeing with you, the idea of just let the 80 years old with Covid die, as if he's not aiming to live that long.


----------



## Beaver101

:) lonewolf said:


> I cant wear a mask my brain is to big it needs lots of oxygen


 .... no doubt. Actually you're gonna need a bigger brain to hold more oxygen. Let's see how big it'll inflates to before it explodes.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> I don’t think people around wear masks, get vaccinated or distance because of fear of covid. It’s more like being frightened by your neighbours rating you out to the authorities. similar to the Nazi German, people were snitching on the Jews, not because they disliked them, but because the fear of authorities and the punishment.
> Society of dobbers.


 ... today is July 10, 2021 and we live in "Canada", with freedom of speech to voice our opinions on this forum. And we get to go outside to breathe air, shop, laugh with our neighbours if we want to or tell him/her to go f-off, have-your-pick of activity, etc. Not in year 1941, WW2, a society of dobbers.

By chance, are you a time-traveller? I'm quite interested in that phenomenon.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> What about those people who can't get vaccinated for valid medical reasons?
> Should they also not be allowed to leave their house?
> Or you simply don't give a **** if they do, or if they die?


 ... are they not allowed to leave the house now? I'm certain that they can get a medical certificate if they truly can't be vaccinated (validity test). A good test of that validity is to start with their employment. 

Besides, how many people do you know who has a medical condition that they can't be vaccinated? I don't think the experts themselves even know which "medical condition" would deem someone being unable to be vaccinated. Any study?

Okay, I see you were responding to gibor on your 2nd question. Of course, gibor don't give a crxp since it's all about me, me, me.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> I don’t think people around wear masks, get vaccinated or distance because of fear of covid. It’s more like being frightened by your neighbours rating you out to the authorities. similar to the Nazi German, people were snitching on the Jews, not because they disliked them, but because the fear of authorities and the punishment.
> Society of dobbers.


That would be persuasive if anyone was actually being punished, much less reported. 

I have seen the odd person not wearing a mask in the grocery store. I didn't notice them getting persecuted. I just avoided them a bit more than everyone else. There has always been exemptions for people who require accommodations. 

I think the only chance you'd have of getting ratted out by neighbours is if you were hosting big parties. That was the only thing I heard police intervening in. Parties are perfect superspreader events, as demonstrated by the recent Sydney outbreak where 30 people went to a party, 1 had COVID before, and 26 had COVID after. The 4 who didn't catch it were vaccinated.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> The authorities should introduce vaccination passport (like Israel did) and give more freedom to fully vaccinated people like attend bars, restaurants, sport and cultural events etc... Thus, more people would like to be vaccinated.
> Truly, I don't give a [email protected] if people who don't want to be vaccinated die


Restrictions are getting relaxed for everyone. I don't think there will be limits on what non-vaccinated people can do. Travel is a different story.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> a society of dobbers.


People are reporting on their neighbours over COVID-19 concerns
Meanwhile in London, Ont., city officials have set up a new “snitch line” to report people not complying with the federal guidance around COVID-19.
In B.C., Metro Vancouver's emergency dispatch centre is seeing a surge of calls related to COVID-19, including “quite a few” involving reporting on neighbours who are not self-isolating or abiding by the physical distancing rules, which is taking operators away from dealing with real emergencies.
*








People are reporting on their neighbours over COVID-19 concerns


The coronavirus pandemic has revealed how Canadians are reporting on neighbours flouting the federal government’s order to self-isolate and practice physical distancing.




www.ctvnews.ca




*The pleasure and peril of snitching on your neighbours during a pandemic
*


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/pleasure-peril-snitching-pandemic-1.5544367


*Should you snitch on your neighbours for flouting physical distancing rules? Here's some advice
*


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/navigating-physical-distancing-rules-covid-19-etiquette-1.5513472


*
A truly society of dobbers, Adolf H. would be proud.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

COVID-19 pandemic is turning Canada into a nation of snitches








COVID-19 pandemic is turning Canada into a nation of snitches


'The current COVID-19 threat makes us feel powerless and out of control. So by denouncing, it gives people the impression that they have more control'




nationalpost.com





Don't let coronavirus turn us into a nation of snitches








Don't let coronavirus turn us into a nation of snitches - Macleans.ca


Jen Gerson: Hotlines for reporting 'non-compliance' are evil tools that will damage the very trust we'll need to rebound from this crisis




www.macleans.ca




Transcript: Will COVID-19 Create a Nation of Snitches?





TVO Today | Current Affairs Journalism, Documentaries and Podcasts







www.tvo.org





Canadians are dobbers.


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> What about those people who can't get vaccinated for valid medical reasons?
> Should they also not be allowed to leave their house?
> Or you simply don't give a **** if they do, or if they die?


number of people who cannot get shot for medical reasons is extremely low!








COVID-19 vaccines and pre-existing medical conditions: Should certain people not get a shot?


The COVID-19 vaccines approved by Health Canada are considered safe, but are there certain allergies or pre-existing medical conditions that could make taking the vaccine risky? Experts consulted by CTVNews.ca say there are very few situations where not taking the vaccine would be the better option.




www.ctvnews.ca




In any case, those few people can obtain letter from doctor that thy cannot get vaccine, submit to same website where you can print your fully vaccination doc and they will be exempt..


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> seriously thanking lord that you're not a licensed medical doctor and merely trolling here. Just like the other poster agreeing with you, the idea of just let the 80 years old with Covid die, as if he's not aiming to live that long.


 as I said if 80 years old does not want to get vaccinated, let them die, perhaps that’s what they want.
People do lose quality of life as they get old despite the medical advances that keep them alive.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> COVID-19 pandemic is turning Canada into a nation of snitches
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 pandemic is turning Canada into a nation of snitches
> 
> 
> 'The current COVID-19 threat makes us feel powerless and out of control. So by denouncing, it gives people the impression that they have more control'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't let coronavirus turn us into a nation of snitches
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't let coronavirus turn us into a nation of snitches - Macleans.ca
> 
> 
> Jen Gerson: Hotlines for reporting 'non-compliance' are evil tools that will damage the very trust we'll need to rebound from this crisis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macleans.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transcript: Will COVID-19 Create a Nation of Snitches?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TVO Today | Current Affairs Journalism, Documentaries and Podcasts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tvo.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canadians are dobbers.


There is nothing to do with Covid-19! Canada was always a Nation of Snitches! Some are really enjoying to snitch on their neighbors...


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Restrictions are getting relaxed for everyone. I don't think there will be limits on what non-vaccinated people can do. Travel is a different story.


Too bad! it would encourage un-vaxxers to get vaccines. imho, also business owners should be allowed to let in only fully vaccinated people, esp in venues like bathhouse, nightclubs etc

btw, there are a lot of developed countries who using Covid passports 








Which Countries Are Using COVID-19 Vaccine Passports? - MoveHub


Countries are now introducing COVID vaccine passports. If you’ve received both doses of the vaccine, where could your next holiday be?




www.movehub.com


----------



## :) lonewolf

Beaver101 said:


> ... today is July 10, 2021 and we live in "Canada", with freedom of speech to voice our opinions on this forum. And we get to go outside to breathe air, shop, laugh with our neighbours if we want to or tell him/her to go f-off, have-your-pick of activity, etc. Not in year 1941, WW2, a society of dobbers.
> 
> By chance, are you a time-traveller? I'm quite interested in that phenomenon.





Beaver101 said:


> Let's see how big it'll inflates to before it explodes.


Since I will not live in a world of being injected with kill shots that attack the body for mass depopulation I will need to be killed. Your right my brain could explode with a gun shot through the head by an order follower. I am totally okay with that  Be a coward play it safe, follow orders, hail your Hitler as those with courage fight for freedom.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... are they not allowed to leave the house now? I'm certain that they can get a medical certificate if they truly can't be vaccinated (validity test). A good test of that validity is to start with their employment.
> 
> Besides, how many people do you know who has a medical condition that they can't be vaccinated? I don't think the experts themselves even know which "medical condition" would deem someone being unable to be vaccinated. Any study?
> 
> Okay, I see you were responding to gibor on your 2nd question. Of course, gibor don't give a crxp since it's all about me, me, me.


Allergies is a big one. To PEG and couple other common vaccine ingredients.

I actually have a person that can't get vaccinated.
Something makes her susceptible to problems with blood vessels in the brain. Not a doctor so not sure what exactly. Her doctor who does monthly check-ups and tests said that any incident, depending on location can end in immediate death, paralysis, or blindness. He strongly advised against taking vaccine because risk is multiple orders of magnitude higher than potential benefit.

Should she take multiple orders of magnitude higher risk of death/paralysis/blindness just to satisfy idiotic requirement to enter a bar, cinema, a plane, or any other location?

Discriminating against people because of their health is illegal and another human right violation.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Interesting information 
*Evidence for increased breakthrough rates of SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern in BNT162b2 mRNA vaccinated individuals*
Our results show that vaccinees that tested positive at least a week after the second dose were indeed disproportionally infected with B.1.351, as compared with unvaccinated individuals (*odds ratio of 8:1*). Those who tested positive between two weeks after the first dose and one week after the second dose, were disproportionally infected by B.1.1.7 (*odds ratio of 26:10*), suggesting reduced vaccine effectiveness against both VOCs at particular time windows following vaccination.








Evidence for increased breakthrough rates of SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern in BNT162b2 mRNA vaccinated individuals


The SARS-CoV-2 pandemic has been raging for over a year, creating global detrimental impact. The BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine has demonstrated high protection levels, yet apprehension exists that several variants of concerns (VOCs) can surmount the immune defenses generated by the vaccines...




www.medrxiv.org





if you are vaccinated with mRNA vaccines you are 8 times more likely to get infected. Who would have guessed


----------



## sags

I talked to an RN today who works in the hospital and she said the workload is less strained, but they are seeing a lot of patients returning months after they had the initial COVID.

She said they were un-vaccinated originally and now suffer a lot of different medical issues. She mentioned kidney failure as one common problem.

I asked the ages of patitents and she said it was mostly middle aged......35 to 55 age group.

Get vaccinated, wear a mask, and social distance.


----------



## :) lonewolf

gibor365 said:


> Truly, I don't give a [email protected] if people who don't want to be vaccinated die


 Vaccine tests on animals were stopped because all the animals died. It is not a vaccine it is more like an anti vaccine since the kill jab attacks the body. Wearing masks, lock downs, social distancing, creating fear, kill jabs all weaken the immune system. Commit suicide get your kill shot, The rest of us they will eventually try to hunt down. We will probably be shot, put in internment camps or be allowed to commit suicide with kill shot. Every order that people follow brings us one step closer.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> as I said if 80 years old does not want to get vaccinated, let them die, perhaps that’s what they want.
> People do lose quality of life as they get old despite the medical advances that keep them alive.


 ... were/are you aware of an 80 year old (presumably healthy and not on the MAID list) who doesn't want to be vaccinated? I don't.

Or are you one of those youngsters who wouldn't hesitate to encourage their parents to skip the vaccination because they already going to die anyways from Alzheimer's or whatever old age disease? I can hear already hear how that converse goes "Hurry up Pop, I could use the inheritance" so I can buy myself a new iphone, a new Corvette, take a trip, etc.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ... seriously thanking lord that you're not a licensed medical doctor and merely trolling here. Just like the other poster agreeing with you, the idea of just let the 80 years old with Covid die, as if he's not aiming to live that long.





Beaver101 said:


> ... were/are you aware of an 80 year old (presumably healthy and not on the MAID list) who doesn't want to be vaccinated? I don't. Or are you one of those youngsters who wouldn't hesitate to encourage their parents to skip the vaccination because they already going to die anyways from Alzheimer's or whatever old age disease? I can hear already hear how that converse goes "Hurry up pop, I could use the inheritance" so I can myself a new iphone, a new Corvette, take a trip, etc.


 You lost me. Are 80 years old gonna die from covid?
or 80 years old gonna live because they all got vaccinated?
I already told you that we should get everyone who wants to be vaccinated, vaccinated and just the rest of the people alone with those ridiculous restrictions.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> You lost me. Are 80 years old gonna die from covid?
> or 80 years old gonna live because they all got vaccinated?
> I already told you that we should get everyone who wants to be vaccinated, vaccinated and just the rest of the people alone with those ridiculous restrictions.


... re-read your post #3070 (reposted here):




> Ukrainiandude said:





> as I said if 80 years old does not want to get vaccinated, let them die, perhaps that’s what they want.
> People do lose quality of life as they get old despite the medical advances that keep them alive.


 ... either your brain is playing tricks on you or you're attempting a 180 degrees deflection to "those ridiculous restrictions" now. I give you benefit of the doubt with the first suggestion here.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> COVID-19 pandemic is turning Canada into a nation of snitches
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 pandemic is turning Canada into a nation of snitches
> 
> 
> 'The current COVID-19 threat makes us feel powerless and out of control. So by denouncing, it gives people the impression that they have more control'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't let coronavirus turn us into a nation of snitches
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't let coronavirus turn us into a nation of snitches - Macleans.ca
> 
> 
> Jen Gerson: Hotlines for reporting 'non-compliance' are evil tools that will damage the very trust we'll need to rebound from this crisis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macleans.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transcript: Will COVID-19 Create a Nation of Snitches?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TVO Today | Current Affairs Journalism, Documentaries and Podcasts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tvo.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canadians are dobbers.


 ... I don't disbelieve that happening in small towns, needless to say especially in Quebec where OP resides. Busy-bodies living there have too much time on their hands. 

City-slickers in big metros got better things to worry about or spend time on.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> were/are you aware of an 80 year old (presumably healthy and not on the MAID list) who doesn't want to be vaccinated?


My grandparents in Ukraine didn’t/don’t want to get vaccinated.
but parents in Ukraine got fully vaccinated.
what is your point?


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> My grandparents in Ukraine didn’t want to get vaccinated.
> but parents in Ukraine got fully vaccinated.
> what is your point?


 .. maybe you should asked yourself that question first before you go rambling. The answer to your question is very simple: vaccination is voluntary. Whether they die from being unvaccinated, it's their choice. Not for you to determine.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> .. maybe you should asked yourself that question first before you go rambling. The answer to your question is very simple: vaccination is voluntary. Whether they die from being unvaccinated, it's their choice. Not for you to determine.


Exactly my point. Whoever wanted to get their shots already did. No need to keep the whole country bound by ridiculous restrictions.


----------



## damian13ster

gibor365 said:


> number of people who cannot get shot for medical reasons is extremely low!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines and pre-existing medical conditions: Should certain people not get a shot?
> 
> 
> The COVID-19 vaccines approved by Health Canada are considered safe, but are there certain allergies or pre-existing medical conditions that could make taking the vaccine risky? Experts consulted by CTVNews.ca say there are very few situations where not taking the vaccine would be the better option.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In any case, those few people can obtain letter from doctor that thy cannot get vaccine, submit to same website where you can print your fully vaccination doc and they will be exempt..


So those people need to disclose your personal medical information to a national database?
Sounds like a terrible idea.


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> So those people need to disclose your personal medical information to a national database?
> Sounds like a terrible idea.


IMHO, all "your personal medical information in a national database".... But if you think it's really private and you don't want to disclose , you won't able to attend some venues... What is wrong with it?! Canada wants to be more saint than Pope?! Other, not less democratic countries than authoritarian canada, introduced vaccine passport and nothing wrong with it...
There are plenty of venues that women not allowed to enter _If you own a private *club*, such as a gentlemen's *club*, you *can* limit your *membership* to people who share a certain protected characteristic. ... So, for example, a gentleman's *club can refuse* to admit a woman ._
There are plenty of clubs where single man aren't allowed to enter.
So, what is the difference? If venue owners is not allow unvaccinated ppl to enter, it's his right!

And to tell the truth, I think 99.9% of people that tell you that they cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons , just finding excuse


----------



## damian13ster

gibor365 said:


> IMHO, all "your personal medical information in a national database".... But if you think it's really private and you don't want to disclose , you won't able to attend some venues... What is wrong with it?! Canada wants to be more saint than Pope?! Other, not less democratic countries than authoritarian canada, introduced vaccine passport and nothing wrong with it...
> There are plenty of venues that women not allowed to enter _If you own a private *club*, such as a gentlemen's *club*, you *can* limit your *membership* to people who share a certain protected characteristic. ... So, for example, a gentleman's *club can refuse* to admit a woman ._
> There are plenty of clubs where single man aren't allowed to enter.
> So, what is the difference? If venue owners is not allow unvaccinated ppl to enter, it's his right!
> 
> And to tell the truth, I think 99.9% of people that tell you that they cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons , just finding excuse


Groceries, public venues, etc. they aren't private clubs.
And you are talking about a country that recently committed genocide. You are talking about a country that had forced sterilization, eugenics. That county should not be in possession of private medical data. It is as simple as that. There are certain non-negotiable human rights, and coerced disclosure of medical data breaks those rights.

Keep the authoritarian **** away


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> *Groceries, public venues, etc. they aren't private clubs.*
> And you are talking about a country that recently committed genocide. You are talking about a country that had forced sterilization, eugenics. That county should not be in possession of private medical data. It is as simple as that. There are certain non-negotiable human rights, and coerced disclosure of medical data breaks those rights.
> 
> Keep the authoritarian **** away


As you know, I;m against all lockdowns all together, but if the government wants to restrict attendance to some venues, I;m fine with vaccine passport.
And I'm not talking about *Groceries, public venues, etc, I'm talking about private venues.... 
If owner of some nightclub or bathhouse wants to admit only fully vaccinated ppl, this is his right*


----------



## :) lonewolf

gibor365 said:


> As you know, I;m against all lockdowns all together, but if the government wants to restrict attendance to some venues, I;m fine with vaccine passport.
> And I'm not talking about *Groceries, public venues, etc, I'm talking about private venues....
> If owner of some nightclub or bathhouse wants to admit only fully vaccinated ppl, this is his right*


You fail to see the true evil in those playing god. Implant chips in us to make sure pass ports are real. Destroy our jobs so we are dependent on government. With the 5G they can track us if you do not behave a certain way your money is cut off. You or are family are not up to date with the so called vaccine you are locked down. To control population numbers they can put what ever they want in the fake vaccines & use mind alternating drugs to control us. All this for a manufactured virus that most do not die from since the fake tests produce false positives & those that die of heart attacks or what ever are put down as Covid. The Conjob continues until people fight back.


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> Interesting information
> *Evidence for increased breakthrough rates of SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern in BNT162b2 mRNA vaccinated individuals*
> Our results show that vaccinees that tested positive at least a week after the second dose were indeed disproportionally infected with B.1.351, as compared with unvaccinated individuals (*odds ratio of 8:1*). Those who tested positive between two weeks after the first dose and one week after the second dose, were disproportionally infected by B.1.1.7 (*odds ratio of 26:10*), suggesting reduced vaccine effectiveness against both VOCs at particular time windows following vaccination.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Evidence for increased breakthrough rates of SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern in BNT162b2 mRNA vaccinated individuals
> 
> 
> The SARS-CoV-2 pandemic has been raging for over a year, creating global detrimental impact. The BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine has demonstrated high protection levels, yet apprehension exists that several variants of concerns (VOCs) can surmount the immune defenses generated by the vaccines...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medrxiv.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you are vaccinated with mRNA vaccines you are 8 times more likely to get infected. Who would have guessed


That is NOT AT ALL what the study shows. If you read the full study you will see this:

To this end, we identified individuals with documented SARS-CoV-2 infection – symptomatic or asymptomatic (hereby denoted as carriers). ... Each vaccinee (case) was matched with an unvaccinated carrier (control) with similar demographic characteristics (date of PCR, age, sex, ethnic sector, and geographic location) to reduce bias associated with differential exposure (Methods).

So what they did is for every vaccinated person who caught covid, they matched them with an unvaccinated person who caught covid. Then they analyzed the strains of covid and they found that the vaccinated people had 8x the incidence of the delta variant than the unvaccinated. 

That does NOT mean that vaccinated people caught 8x more covid than unvaccinated. It means that the variant of covid that was able to break through the vaccinations was 8x more likely to be delta than another variant.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Exactly my point. Whoever wanted to get their shots already did. No need to keep the whole country bound by ridiculous restrictions.


 ... but your "point" doesn't cut it because what you keep failing to realize is that no legally licensed medical doctor in this country is going to refuse any patient (even unvaccinated ones) who lands in the hospital, gasping for air or in need of medical care. [Of course, this would exclude any unvaccinated person who wants to die somewhere alone and not to be heard from.] 

And this would mean the hospital (and not solely hospitals but other institutions or businesses) will continue to be bounded by those "ridiculous restrictions" to prevent overcapacity from infected people while the pandemic remains, however they (hospital, governing medical experts, businesses) see fit. 

I hope you do realize each of these entities (hospitals, businesses, etc), including your employer has a "legal responsibility" to ensure yours and those around you/theirs' safety.


----------



## damian13ster

gibor365 said:


> As you know, I;m against all lockdowns all together, but if the government wants to restrict attendance to some venues, I;m fine with vaccine passport.
> And I'm not talking about *Groceries, public venues, etc, I'm talking about private venues....
> If owner of some nightclub or bathhouse wants to admit only fully vaccinated ppl, this is his right*


Slippery slope. On CBC radio in Edmonton yesterday they were talking about restricting any space, including groceries, to those only vaccinated.
Again. There are human rights. They need to be respected. A right not to be coerced to medical procedure and a right not to be coerced to disclose medical information is one of those rights. 
You have government with history of genocide and eugenics. 
The human rights are there to protect individuals from government - stop ignoring them.

And no. The owner of a nightclub or a bathhouse doesn't have right to discrimination. He can't refuse entry to people because of their race, because of their sexuality, or because of their disability. There are still laws against discrimination.


----------



## sags

People have individual rights and society has rights. It is the clash of those rights that would be in question.

Which right should prevail over the other ? Does a person have the individual right to infect other people ?

Does society have to right to protect themselves from those who refuse to protect themselves ?

I think the consensus is that societal rights prevail and it appears the courts are supporting that legal interpretation of the laws.

I don't view this as an unusual result. People have a legal right to drink alcohol, but they don't have the right to drink excessively and then drive a car.


----------



## sags

To claim that private business cannot ban people is not factual.

"No shirts....no socks.....no service"..........has been around forever. Wearing "gang colors" is banned in many places, including publicly owned buildings.

There would be nothing unusual in requiring proof of vaccination for entry.

If people don't agree they are free to take the matter to court for a legal decision. After all......we are a nation of laws.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> People have individual rights and society has rights. It is the clash of those rights that would be in question.
> 
> Which right should prevail over the other ? Does a person have the individual right to infect other people ?
> 
> Does society have to right to protect themselves from those who refuse to protect themselves ?
> 
> I think the consensus is that societal rights prevail and it appears the courts are supporting that legal interpretation of the laws.
> 
> I don't view this as an unusual result. People have a legal right to drink alcohol, but they don't have the right to drink excessively and then drive a car.


Always individual, and no question about it.
Human rights are there to protect an individual from government and those in power.
Human rights are there to protect minority from the majority.

Your thinking is literally what leads to holocaust and genocide.
Holocaust and genocide were done precisely because societal rights were deemed to be more important than human rights of minorities. Societies were convinced that the minorities were detrimental to them so they have to be excluded and ultimately exterminated.
Your way of thinking is exactly how holocaust was done.
Your way of thinking is exactly how Canadian government committed genocide against first nations.

Human rights for individuals and minority is the way to avoid that - they can't be ignored.

Business can't ban people for certain reasons. Race, sexuality, religion, certain medical conditions, etc.
Not wearing a shirt is not protected against discrimination. Listed above are

And you are comparing a choice to drink alcohol with a disability or medical condition - shame on you.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> who lands in the hospital, gasping for air or in need of medical care.





Beaver101 said:


> to prevent overcapacity from infected people


how good you are in math?
Those are rates of hospitalization per 100k people
given that 90% of those over 65 are fully vaccinated and 80% of those over 50 are fully vaccinated and those over 18 70% got at least one dose
What is rate of the future hospitalization going to be?
please report back to me your findings.
p.s this graph is from 2020, before the vaccine, so ignore the yellow writing.


----------



## Beaver101

> ... please report back to me your findings.


 ... you might want to do that exercise as I don't have a crystal ball.

PS: You know you're funny as originally you had no faith in the vaccine (originally no vaccine for you as you don't want to be a lab rat, like everyone else) and all of a sudden, these glorious graphs depicting a downtrend of hospitalisations (presumably due to the success of the vaccines) we should be do away with all these ridiculous restrictions and open up everything as if the pandemic has disappeared.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> these glorious graphs depicting a downtrend of hospitalisations


 These graphs are from 2020. 


Beaver101 said:


> presumably due to the success of the vaccines


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> you might want to do that exercise as I don't have a crystal ball.


You don’t need a crystal ball to do a basic forth grade math exercise.
P.s. My advantage is that didn’t get my education in Canada, therefore I can do arithmetics.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> These graphs are from 2020.


 ... since you want to chop my posts out of context, then did the Covid19 pandemic started in 1919?


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> You don’t need a crystal ball to do a basic forth grade math exercise.
> P.s. My advantage is that didn’t get my education in Canada, therefore I can do arithmetics.


 ... well, since you're so good at math, then you do the exercise and report back to me.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Provincewide COVID-19 restrictions lifted in Sask.

Masking no longer mandatory; limits on gathering sizes dropped.
60% of customers in Walmart already are not wearing muzzles 😷.


----------



## sags

Clearly you don't understand the dynamics of societal versus individual rights, so I will provide an example that is easy to understand.

It is a founding principle in a just society that people have an individual right to freedom and taking away that freedom is a breach of their individual right and should be considered only as a last resort.

And yet, the guy who drove his truck into a family in our city is being held in a maximum security detention center and will remain there until his case is completed.

Why ? The accused has not been convicted of any crimes yet. He is deemed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

He is in prison because society's right to security and safety supercedes his individual right to freedom until his case is completed.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> He is in prison because


Because of political agenda, that’s all you and I need. He was was called guilty by PM without a trial, that’s all you and I need to know about Canadian system and how it operates.
And Saskatchewan government doesn’t care of societal either, they said 70% of people will get vaccinated at least with one dose, and the covid restrictions will be lifted in two weeks. Today restrictions are lifted and people don’t have to be muzzled in Walmart anymore.
This should be Canada wide.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Clearly you don't understand the dynamics of societal versus individual rights, so I will provide an example that is easy to understand.
> 
> It is a founding principle in a just society that people have an individual right to freedom and taking away that freedom is a breach of their individual right and should be considered only as a last resort.
> 
> And yet, the guy who drove his truck into a family in our city is being held in a maximum security detention center and will remain there until his case is completed.
> 
> Why ? The accused has not been convicted of any crimes yet. He is deemed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
> 
> He is in prison because society's right to security and safety supercedes his individual right to freedom until his case is completed.


No, it is you who doesn't understand it.

Here is the charter section:
9. Everyone has the right not to be *arbitrarily* detained or imprisoned.

The person you mentioned wasn't arbitrarily detained therefore his right isn't violated.


Section 15 of the Charter makes it clear that every individual in Canada – regardless of race, religion, national or ethnic origin, colour, sex, age or *physical or mental disability – is to be treated with the same respect, dignity and consideration.* This means that governments must not discriminate on any of these grounds in its laws or programs.

The courts have held that section 15 also protects equality on the basis of other characteristics that are not specifically set out in it. For example, this section has been held to prohibit discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, marital status or citizenship.

*The Supreme Court of Canada has stated that the purpose of section 15 is to protect those groups who suffer social, political and legal disadvantage in society. Discrimination occurs when a person, because of a personal characteristic, suffers disadvantages or is denied opportunities available to other members of society.*

Denying opportunities based on mental condition is against the Charter - it violates rights.
Non-arbitrary detention does not.


----------



## :) lonewolf

sags said:


> People have individual rights and society has rights. It is the clash of those rights that would be in question.
> 
> Which right should prevail over the other ? Does a person have the individual right to infect other people ?
> 
> Does society have to right to protect themselves from those who refuse to protect themselves ?
> 
> I think the consensus is that societal rights prevail and it appears the courts are supporting that legal interpretation of the laws.
> 
> I don't view this as an unusual result. People have a legal right to drink alcohol, but they don't have the right to drink excessively and then drive a car.





damian13ster said:


> No, it is you who doesn't understand it.
> 
> Here is the charter section:
> 9. Everyone has the right not to be *arbitrarily* detained or imprisoned.
> 
> The person you mentioned wasn't arbitrarily detained therefore his right isn't violated.
> 
> 
> Section 15 of the Charter makes it clear that every individual in Canada – regardless of race, religion, national or ethnic origin, colour, sex, age or *physical or mental disability – is to be treated with the same respect, dignity and consideration.* This means that governments must not discriminate on any of these grounds in its laws or programs.
> 
> The courts have held that section 15 also protects equality on the basis of other characteristics that are not specifically set out in it. For example, this section has been held to prohibit discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, marital status or citizenship.
> 
> *The Supreme Court of Canada has stated that the purpose of section 15 is to protect those groups who suffer social, political and legal disadvantage in society. Discrimination occurs when a person, because of a personal characteristic, suffers disadvantages or is denied opportunities available to other members of society.*
> 
> Denying opportunities based on mental condition is against the Charter - it violates rights.
> Non-arbitrary detention does not.


 Yet the government & mainstream media is demonizing & telling people to demonize anyone that does not go along with the agenda while they preach do not discriminate


----------



## Money172375

Israel offers third shot of Pfizer vaccine to at-risk adults


As Delta variant cases rise, the government is still deciding if booster shots will be made available to the general population




www.theglobeandmail.com





“About half of the 46 patients presently hospitalised in Israel in severe condition are vaccinated, and the majority are from risk groups, according to the health authorities.”


----------



## sags

So what happens now with reopening in Canada ? I am guessing the officials don't know what to do.

I feel for them......having to make big decisions on the spot continually.

They are bound to get some right and some wrong. Regardless of what they decide there will be critics.

It looks like a third vaccine shot is becoming more likely though.


----------



## damian13ster

Why would the third shot of the same vaccine be effective if the previous two weren't?
The officials not knowing what to do is literally Modus Operandi of the current government


----------



## Beaver101

^ Because the boosters are going to be tweaked to include the Delta variant (if not Lambda (sic)) that the first 2 shots didn't.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Because the boosters are going to be tweaked to include the Delta variant (if not Lambda (sic)) that the first 2 shots didn't.


Well, once they go through Phase 1, Phase 2, full Phase 3 trials then it is all good!
By the time that happens there will be another variant, another new formulation, etc. And the circle will continue


----------



## Beaver101

^ Then is it any different from the circle of annual flu shots?


----------



## damian13ster

Pretty much.
Every single new formulation goes through FDA approval.
The strains being used are actually generated by FDA - the approving body.
And flu vaccines are taken by minority of people. 

If you start talking about a third, fourth, fifth, tenth booster, all you are going to achieve is stop people from getting their subsequent dose. What's the point if I can wait 2-3 months and simply get the updated one? And in that 2-3 months there will be another strain, and another update coming so what is the point in getting this one?


----------



## Beaver101

> ... What's the point if I can wait 2-3 months and simply get the updated one? And in that 2-3 months there will be another strain, and another update coming so what is the point in getting this one?


 ... yes, you can say that but "some(like alot too)" people wants/needs to travel, work, etc. like "NOW" so they're going to take every updated shot available for protection. Also, keep in mind this is COVID (high risk of death), not the flu . And the vaccination remains voluntary.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... yes, you can say that "some" people wants/needs to travel, work, etc. like NOW so they're going to take every updated shot available. And also, keep in mind this is COVID (high risk of death), not the flu,


Just playing devil's advocate here.
But since the previous doses were ineffective, by the time new strain comes around, they are already useless - so why get them?
And if they are effective against the strain then why the booster?
It will dilute the messaging like crazy. Good luck convincing people to take a shot every 2-3 months because previous ones aren't good enough.

And luckily I can travel pretty much wherever I want today. Could do it last year, can do it now. Having multiple passport is pretty great. I suggest people try to obtain second citizenship too so any single authoritarian government doesn't have full control over you.

And COVID doesn't have high risk of death. Higher than flu? Probably. High? For a person my age and health the risk is lower than daily commute


----------



## sags

The virus controls what happens. Pretending it doesn't exist isn't an option.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Just playing devil's advocate here.
> But since the previous doses were ineffective, by the time new strain comes around, they are already useless - so why get them?
> And if they are effective against the strain then why the booster?


 ... are you sure that the old strains are not still around? Or are you sure the boosters will cover both old and new strains? If so, then skip the first 2 vaccines and wait for the boosters. Are you those willing to do that?


> It will dilute the messaging like crazy. Good luck convincing people to take a shot every 2-3 months because previous ones aren't good enough.


 ... who said, every 2 to 3 months a shot? The flu is annually. Right now, Pfizer is just applying to FDA on the booster and Fauci stated, no one needs that booster right now. We don't even know when it'll be available, if available to us Canadians.



> And luckily I can travel pretty much wherever I want today. Could do it last year, can do it now. Having multiple passport is pretty great. I suggest people try to obtain second citizenship too so any single authoritarian government doesn't have full control over you.


 ... by all means, no one is stopping you for skirting quarantine/roach hotel, gulag or whatever. Just pay the fines. Now the vaccination passport is in the works so there will be none of that. 

If you want to be absolutely (110%) free from any authoritarians (government et al), own and live on your own island and be sure to declare it as your own country too. Much like utopia.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Because the boosters are going to be tweaked to include the Delta variant (if not Lambda (sic)) that the first 2 shots didn't.


That is why I said, people should not rush with the second shot and instead wait until fall for the upgraded boosters.


damian13ster said:


> And flu vaccines are taken by minority of people.


According to CDC, it is also not very effective.
While vaccine effectiveness (VE) can vary, recent studies show that flu vaccination reduces the risk of flu illness by between 40% and 60% among the overall population during seasons when most circulating flu viruses are well-matched to the flu vaccine.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... are you sure that the old strains are not still around? Or are you sure the boosters will cover both old and new strains? If so, then skip the first 2 vaccines and wait for the boosters. Are you those willing to do that?
> ... who said, every 2 to 3 months a shot? The flu is annually. Right now, Pfizer is just applying to FDA on the booster and Fauci stated, no one needs that booster right now. We don't even know when it'll be available, if available to us Canadians.
> 
> ... by all means, no one is stopping you for skirting quarantine/roach hotel, gulag or whatever. Just pay the fines. Now the vaccination passport is in the works so no none of that. If you want to be absolutely (110%) free from any authoritarians (government et al), own and live on your own island and be sure to declare it as your own country too. Much like utopia.


Strain with higher virulence pushes out old strains extremely quickly. Just look at data from UK.
The talk is already about a booster, some countries are already introducing them, and in Canada majority didn't even have access to 2nd dose yet. 2-3 months might be under or over-estimation. We don't know.
You can choose whatever time interval you want. Introducing boosters will widely decrease the uptake.

If you are skirting the rules, that means not paying a fine.
Breaking the rules means paying a fine.

And quote: "to any* single* authoritarian government", so your response about island is weird and not related.
You will never get a full autonomy. Having citizenship of a country where human rights are optional doesn't help.

Canadian and Cuban citizenship combination won't help you much - human rights are optional in both countries
Canadian and EU state citizenship combination will help you a lot - rights given by constitution are set in stone in majority of European countries - government can't just choose to ignore them without consequence.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> That is why I said, people should not rush with the second shot and instead wait until fall for the upgraded boosters.


 ... how do you know the (first) booster(s) are coming out in the "fall", fall of this year?



> According to CDC, it is also not very effective.
> While vaccine effectiveness (VE) can vary, recent studies show that flu vaccination reduces the risk of flu illness by between 40% and 60% among the overall population during seasons when most circulating flu viruses are well-matched to the flu vaccine.


 ... for the umpteenth time, the vaccine is not a silver bullet. And this includes the "flu" shot. And you're correct to say it reduces the risk of "death" from the flu but it does not prevent you from not getting the flu either.

It's highly recommended that people with underlying medical conditions get the flu shot because the symptoms of the flu can be very severe (even for healthy people, like moi), with potential long term adverse health effects (eg. asthma for moi). 

As previously stated in one of my earlier post, one do NOT develop the flu on his/her own. You pick it from someone else. Needless to say that someone else is an infected person, known or unknownst to him/her.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Strain with higher virulence pushes out old strains extremely quickly. Just look at data from UK.
> The talk is already about a booster, some countries are already introducing them, and in Canada majority didn't even have access to 2nd dose yet. 2-3 months might be under or over-estimation. We don't know.
> You can choose whatever time interval you want. Introducing boosters will widely decrease the uptake.
> 
> If you are skirting the rules, that means not paying a fine.
> *Breaking the rules means paying a fine.*


 ... okay, you said it better (actually spot on) than me here.



> And quote: "to any* single* authoritarian government", so your response about island is weird and not related.
> You will never get a full autonomy. Having citizenship of a country where human rights are optional doesn't help.
> 
> Canadian and Cuban citizenship combination won't help you much - human rights are optional in both countries
> Canadian and EU state citizenship combination will help you a lot - rights given by constitution are set in stone in majority of European countries - government can't just choose to ignore them without consequence.


 .. then name one country on this planet where there's no government to tell or control or oppresses you. How about just a piece of land where you can do whatever you want?


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... okay, you said it better (actually spot on) than me here.
> 
> .. then name one country on this planet where there's no government to tell or control or oppresses you.


There isn't one. 
The same way as there isn't a single country where there is zero murder.
The fact that in some instances murder is committed despite the law against it doesn't mean murder shouldn't be illegal, right? Same goes for violating human rights. Governments will do it, some more, some less, but I still feel better when they can't legally violate human rights.

And I will use Poland again as example, since it is my native country.
Supreme court just determined that closing businesses down by the government is illegal unless state of natural disaster is introduced. If state of natural disaster is introduced, then that means government will have to compensate each business for any interruption enforced by the government.
The supreme court also determined that police hour and lockdown is illegal, all the fines are voided, and all court cases are thrown out.

Did government ignore human rights given by constitution - yes.
Was violating human rights illegal - yes
After justice system determined it is illegal then can the government try to return to closures and lockdowns - no.
Are any of citizens punished for ignoring rules that violate their human rights - no.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Israeli data seems to show COVID vaccine protection starts fading after 6 months*
*Most of the vaccinated people who have been recently infected got the shot around January, figures given to Health Ministry show; some caution it’s too early to draw conclusions.*


----------



## Ukrainiandude

As of Sunday evening, 248 Israelis had tested positive for COVID since midnight, and 263 the day before. There are 3,984 active COVID cases, with 76 people in the hospital and 47 in serious condition, according to Health Ministry figures. Six people in Israel have died of COVID in the past week, including one person on Sunday.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> There isn't one.
> The same way as there isn't a single country where there is zero murder.
> The fact that in some instances murder is committed despite the law against it doesn't mean murder shouldn't be illegal, right? Same goes for violating human rights. Governments will do it, some more, some less, but I still feel better when they can't legally violate human rights.
> 
> And I will use Poland again as example, since it is my native country.
> Supreme court just determined that closing businesses down by the government is illegal unless state of natural disaster is introduced. If state of natural disaster is introduced, then that means government will have to compensate each business for any interruption enforced by the government.
> The supreme court also determined that police hour and lockdown is illegal, all the fines are voided, and all court cases are thrown out.
> 
> Did government ignore human rights given by constitution - yes.
> Was violating human rights illegal - yes
> After justice system determined it is illegal then can the government try to return to closures and lockdowns - no.
> Are any of citizens punished for ignoring rules that violate their human rights - no.


 ... I think we're going to derail this thread from "vaccines" to "human rights" if I'm going to address each part of it. 

So bottomline: where are you living right now? And do you want to continue living here, Canada? No? Then you're free to live where-ever you feel your rights are not violated without all the vaccination, lockdowns, restrictions, etc. going on with the pandemic.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> As of Sunday evening, 248 Israelis had tested positive for COVID since midnight, and 263 the day before. There are 3,984 active COVID cases, with 76 people in the hospital and 47 in serious condition, according to Health Ministry figures. Six people in Israel have died of COVID in the past week, including one person on Sunday.


 ... so what do you conclude with your post? 

Let me guess, the vaccines ain't working and are useless. Therefore, no point in getting vaccinated? Having vaccination regret?


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... I think we're going to derail this thread from "vaccines" to "human rights" if I'm going to address each part of it.
> 
> So bottomline: where are you living right now? And do you want to continue living here, Canada? No? Then you're free to live where-ever you feel your rights are not violated without all the vaccination, lockdowns, restrictions, etc. going on with the pandemic.


That's the approach of current generation?
If you see a problem, simply leave instead of trying to fix it?
Vast majority of my life I have lived abroad. I do have direct comparison. Does it mean, that as a Canadian citizen who wants the country to do well and is concerned about human rights, I should react to human rights violation either by leaving or keeping quiet about them?

I don't get the point of your post at all.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ... so what do you conclude with your post?
> 
> Let me guess, the vaccines ain't working and are useless. Therefore, no point in getting vaccinated? Having vaccination regret?


Nah, just proves that my strategy to get a single shot now and an upgraded booster in the fall, seems to be the logical one.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> That's the approach of current generation?


 ... would you believe it if I said an astounding "yes"? And I'm not a millennial or GENZ (current?).



> If you see a problem, simply leave instead of trying to fix it?


 ... it depends on what the "problem" is. Some problems in life are TOO BIG to be fixed, especially by 1 individual or a minority. And this is one of those TOO BIG=IMPOSSIBLE ones to fix.



> Vast majority of my life I have lived abroad. I do have direct comparison. Does it mean, that as a Canadian citizen who wants the country to do well and is concerned about human rights, I *should react to human rights violation either by leaving or keeping quiet about them?*


 ... trust me, you're not the only person to see "human rights" violations. And by "human rights", I mean the fundamental / basic ones, and not just those related to the current pandemic. In fact, I have posted sometime ago a list from the (Ontario) Human Rights Commission for MrMatt so you can have look at there to see where I'm coming from. 



> I don't get the point of your post at all.


 ... that's because the "human rights problem" can't (as in "cannot") be fixed in Canada as heroic you want to be. It'll always be here. It's beyond a David versus Goliath problem.


----------



## Plugging Along

gibor365 said:


> As you know, I;m against all lockdowns all together, but if the government wants to restrict attendance to some venues, I;m fine with vaccine passport.
> And I'm not talking about *Groceries, public venues, etc, I'm talking about private venues....
> If owner of some nightclub or bathhouse wants to admit only fully vaccinated ppl, this is his right*


I have watching how they are opening in my province. The Calgary Stampede is the first major event in Canada. Though I was initially against it opening, I did get to see first hand the safety precautions. One of them is for the Nashville North, where all the drunken activities are ripe for COVID incubation seems to be handled well. People who want to enter are required either vaccination record (the paper copy from where you got your shot or you could sign in to your health records), and a piece of id or they have to take a rapid test and wait for the result before they are admitted. People seemed to be fine waiting to show their records or in the rapid testing tent. 

My work which takes safety extremely seriously has offered rapid testing to everyone coming in. It's not mandatory, but it's a good start. My spouses work (private) does require double vaccination or rapid testing which currently mandatory. His work is in safety realm, so they just require to prove they don't have COVID. 

I think its fair to have people prove they don't have COVID (rapid testing) OR are at a low risk (vaccinated). It's not a humans violation to show that you don't have something. 




damian13ster said:


> Slippery slope. On CBC radio in Edmonton yesterday they were talking about restricting any space, including groceries, to those only vaccinated.
> Again. There are human rights. They need to be respected. A right not to be coerced to medical procedure and a right not to be coerced to disclose medical information is one of those rights.
> You have government with history of genocide and eugenics.
> The human rights are there to protect individuals from government - stop ignoring them.
> 
> And no. The owner of a nightclub or a bathhouse doesn't have right to discrimination. He can't refuse entry to people because of their race, because of their sexuality, or because of their disability. There are still laws against discrimination.


Agree, there are people that cannot get vaccines or uncomfortable. That is there right and they shouldn't be forced to do something medical as that's their rights. However, I do think is fine to offer other alternatives such as a rapid COVID test. That isn't permanent, just unpleasant to have the swab stuck up your nose. Having had the testing done enough time, I personally preferred the vaccines, but that's me. 

I would be fine testing for COVID if at a higher risk.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*WHO warns against mixing and matching COVID vaccines*
Reuters
GENEVA, July 12 (Reuters) - The World Health Organization's chief scientist on Monday advised against people mixing and matching COVID-19 vaccines from different manufacturers, calling it a "dangerous trend" since there was little data available about the health impact.

but of course health Canada knows better.


----------



## james4beach

Thanks @Ukrainiandude . I'm trying to get a second vaccination this week and will try my best to get the same shot for my second dose.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Thanks @Ukrainiandude . I'm trying to get a second vaccination this week and will try my best to get the same shot for my second dose.


Exactly what I did.... walked out 3 times before was able to get 2nd Pfizer...



> The World Health Organization's chief scientist on Monday advised against people mixing and matching COVID-19 vaccines from different manufacturers, calling it a "dangerous trend" since there was little data available about the health impact.
> 
> but of course health Canada knows better.


 Exactly what I was posting on the forum


----------



## gibor365

Plugging Along said:


> I have watching how they are opening in my province. The Calgary Stampede is the first major event in Canada. Though I was initially against it opening, I did get to see first hand the safety precautions. One of them is for the Nashville North, where all the drunken activities are ripe for COVID incubation seems to be handled well. People who want to enter are required either vaccination record (the paper copy from where you got your shot or you could sign in to your health records), and a piece of id or they have to take a rapid test and wait for the result before they are admitted. People seemed to be fine waiting to show their records or in the rapid testing tent.
> 
> My work which takes safety extremely seriously has offered rapid testing to everyone coming in. It's not mandatory, but it's a good start. My spouses work (private) does require double vaccination or rapid testing which currently mandatory. His work is in safety realm, so they just require to prove they don't have COVID.
> 
> I think its fair to have people prove they don't have COVID (rapid testing) OR are at a low risk (vaccinated). It's not a humans violation to show that you don't have something.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agree, there are people that cannot get vaccines or *uncomfortable*. That is there right and they shouldn't be forced to do something medical as that's their rights. However, *I do think is fine to offer other alternatives such as a rapid COVID test. That isn't permanent, just unpleasant to have the swab stuck up your nose.* Having had the testing done enough time, I personally preferred the vaccines, but that's me.
> 
> I would be fine testing for COVID if at a higher risk.


Believe me, there will be people who "has medical issues" for ra*pid COVID test *
Other people can be *uncomfortable *to be at the same venue with non-vaccinated


----------



## gibor365

Meantime, QC is introducing vaccine passports!

_Not only do COVID-19 vaccines serve the obvious purpose of protecting people against the dreaded virus, but in the future, they will also potentially be the ticket to get into concerts and other large-scale events, to embark on international travel, and potentially more as fears of a resurgence loom.

The concept of a vaccine card or passport has been controversial, but some Canadian provinces have already confirmed that they will exist, and are working on how they will function.

The Quebec government provided further details on Thursday about which kinds of activities will require proof of vaccination there, giving an idea of how things could look in neighbouring Ontario and elsewhere.

*Premier Francois Legault's team said that the passports will come into play after all eligible residents have had the opportunity to get both doses — likely by Sept. 1 — and that they will only be employed in certain non-essential settings and high-risk circumstances.*
"*Rather than closing sectors of activity, it would be necessary to be double vaccinated to access certain activities,*" Quebec Health Minister Christian Dubé clarified in a press conference today.

*"The vaccination passport will be used if, and only if, the transmission or outbreaks justify it in a sector or in a territory."*_

_*Examples include getting into a gym or bar when infection numbers would, pre-vaccines, perhaps necessitate a full closure. The idea is limiting access to only those who are fully vaccinated to ensure that risk of further spread, as well as another wave, is mitigated.*

Those who have been innoculated in the province have already received a special QR code that will potentially be scanned by businesses through an app, using scanners provided by the province.

Though the announcement has faced some criticism, it is in line with the direction that many governments worldwide are heading in.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau likewise said earlier this year that he was in talks with other countries about "some sort of proof of vaccination or vaccine certification," a version of which already exists nationally as the ArriveCan app.

Given how close Legault and Ontario Premier Doug Ford seem to be, as well as how various provinces have taken tips from others' leads as far as lockdown and reopening are concerned, residents of* Ontario shouldn't be too surprised if our own proof of vaccination program is pretty similar to Quebec's.*
Here's what vaccine passports could be like in Ontario if they're similar to Quebec's _

IMHO, this is make sense.... Instead of locking down again when 4th wave starts , some venues will be only for fully vaccinated people.
If Ontario doesn't implement similar passport, Ontarians potentially won't be able to attend QC Habs hockey, concerts, nightclubs and some other high-risk venues.


----------



## Plugging Along

I try not to judge, but its difficult. I feel for those who legitimately have medical issues (we know a few). I am okay with require testing and the discomfort it causes. 


Ukrainiandude said:


> Nah, just proves that my strategy to get a single shot now and an upgraded booster in the fall, seems to be the logical one.



I think your strategy may be off. The Delta is much more contagious and one shot is not as effective. We know of a couple that just caught it. The two members of their house that only had one shot both got it, the two that have been fully vaccinated don't seem to have it right now despite living together. 

If you are planning to isolate/lock yourself down until you get the booster, that makes sense,


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Plugging Along said:


> We know of a couple that just caught it. The two members of their house that only had one shot both got it


Let me know if/when they are hospitalized in critical and I will reevaluate my strategy. Thanks.


----------



## damian13ster

How much protection COVID-19 vaccines give you against the Delta variant, according to the best available data


Six studies suggest vaccines from Pfizer, Moderna, and AstraZeneca work against the Delta variant, to varying degrees. Here's what the data shows.




www.businessinsider.com





Either Canadian immune system is vastly different than rest of the world, or Health Canada is blatantly lying about effectiveness of single-dose vs delta variant. Of course no peer would sign off on that study.
They trying to lie to us to cover up how many seniors they killed by leaving them unprotected because of 4 month gap introduced without data and for political reasons.


----------



## Plugging Along

Ukrainiandude said:


> Let me know if/when they are hospitalized in critical and I will reevaluate my strategy. Thanks.


I posted in May. My friends father has been been in the hospital fighting for his life in an induced coma since mid May. He had his first shot. My friend just came back after trying to care for her mom who also had it, but just felt like she was hit by a bus and was weakened. Her dad is still in the hospital, in less critical condition whatever that means, and if nothing else goes wrong, he may be home in a few months. 

Is that enough to reevaluate your strategy? The doctors said that if they didn't have their first shots, they would for sure be dead. Now, the dad is 'just' fighting for his life, and the mom is still feeling like crap after two months.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Watch, he's still not convinced.


----------



## Plugging Along

damian13ster said:


> How much protection COVID-19 vaccines give you against the Delta variant, according to the best available data
> 
> 
> Six studies suggest vaccines from Pfizer, Moderna, and AstraZeneca work against the Delta variant, to varying degrees. Here's what the data shows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Either Canadian immune system is vastly different than rest of the world, or Health Canada is blatantly lying about effectiveness of single-dose vs delta variant. Of course no peer would sign off on that study.
> They trying to lie to us to cover up how many seniors they killed by leaving them unprotected because of 4 month gap introduced without data and for political reasons.


I don't put to much in the exact numbers or percentages as there are so many variable and differences in the methods. The facts that all the studies show is that the efficacy rate is one does is better than nothing, and significantly higher after the second dose. So the lesson is get both doses. After one dose, we still acted the exact same way as if we were not vaccinated. It's only after my family has been fully vaccinated that we have gone out more. 

I do think a 4 month gap is too long. However, the 21 & 28 were minimums. I was also concerned about delaying doses, in a conversation with medical experts, it was explained that based on other vaccines that require multi-doses, the manufactures provide the MINIMUM of time for jabs. This is because when testing, they want to determine when the body is able to produce enough anti-bodies for the booster shot to do it's job and boost. Too early, and you won't get maximum protection. Based on other vaccines, usually waiting longer will give you better protection because the booster is starting from a higher immunity level. In the cases of the COVID vaccines, people right, they didn't test the maximum amount of time before the first shot starts wearing out. 

The experts I talked said, based on what they know of vaccines in general the 2-3 months would probably be optimal, and they didn't see an issue with 4 months as it's probably as effective as after 21 days. They drew some nice charts that explained it better, but I can't reproduce it here. Keep in mind this was a conversation when the vaccines were first being made available, and we didn't have these variants. It was also based on their knowledge (which I personally trust) on other vaccines, not COVID specific. The science made sense.

I also wonder if Isreal is having less efficacy because they did do such a good job getting two doses in people so quickly. Perhaps a delay of the second dose would have increased its efficacy. So many different ways to read the data. I am not an expert, but just like everyone here, I can make inferences.


----------



## damian13ster

Plugging Along said:


> I posted in May. My friends father has been been in the hospital fighting for his life in an induced coma since mid May. He had his first shot. My friend just came back after trying to care for her mom who also had it, but just felt like she was hit by a bus and was weakened. Her dad is still in the hospital, in less critical condition whatever that means, and if nothing else goes wrong, he may be home in a few months.
> 
> Is that enough to reevaluate your strategy? The doctors said that if they didn't have their first shots, they would for sure be dead. Now, the dad is 'just' fighting for his life, and the mom is still feeling like crap after two months.


Did the doctor tell you what their condition would be if Health Canada followed science instead of politics, and the seniors would have their 2nd shot long before the infection?

I will reply to second post:
Moderna brackets are 21-28. So minimum 21, maximum 28.
Pfizer said maximum is 42, but recommended is 21-28


----------



## Plugging Along

damian13ster said:


> Did the doctor tell you what their condition would be if Health Canada followed science instead of politics, and the seniors would have their 2nd shot long before the infection?
> 
> I will reply to second post:
> Moderna brackets are 21-28. So minimum 21, maximum 28.
> Pfizer said maximum is 42, but recommended is 21-28


We did discuss this, well at least with two of the doctors (we know many). In our province, they did get the second shots in the most vulnerable. People in care facilities all had their second shots as they were opening for vulnerable (seniors at home). Most of the care homes here had their second shots by Feb. Seniors that didn't wait, like my dad and in laws had their first shots in March, and were able to book right away for their second near the end of March or beginning of April. They did change it here mid-march when there was starting to be a supply issue where they were extending the times, which is when I spoke again to some experts.


It does seems like it was a better idea to vaccinate those most vulnerable with both doses first. The thought was the additional increase in efficacy that may occur by waiting longer was not worth the benefit for those that are most at risk to be infected and to have severe outcomes, the second asap was better. We actually asked our the doctors if we should wait a little longer. For my mom in the facility, absolutely not, same with my dad who has other health concerns and relies on my sibling and I for help (and we are more exposed). For my in laws, who are healthy and much younger and completely isolate off the grid, their doctors said, if you can get the second, do it, but if you need to wait a bit, just keep isolating, it was okay too.
For those that are lower risks of severe outcomes, or lower risk of getting infected (able to isolate at home), then waiting to about 8 weeks seemed like a good idea.

Currently, in my province 90%+ of seniors got there second shots in less than 3 months apart most 2 months or less. My whole family got our shots within 30-48 days. I wanted to wait for the youngest a little longer, but we got into a spot.


----------



## sags

From what I have read the MNRA vaccines teach the bodies natural cells to quickly identify the virus to destroy it immediately before it spreads.

The MNRA vaccines don't build an army of anti-virus cells waiting to vanquish an invading virus. They don't build immunity for use at a later date.

The new variants have mutated to avoid the bodies natural cells response, so the timing of the vaccine shots is irrelevant.

What is relevant is if the body can produce cells that can successfully respond to the changes of the virus variants mode of attack.

That we don't know and won't know until the data starts to flow in.


----------



## sags

Incidentally, not all LTC or retirement homes residents and staff are fully vaccinated. Some have had no vaccinations by choice.

The government cannot force vaccine shots on everyone and some people refused to take it.

It has created a situation where the odd resident and employee are still working within the workplace.

My wife's workplace has 1 resident and several employees who refused vaccine. It puts everyone in the home at greater risk, but it is what it is.


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## sags

In my mind, we need an effective treatment for those invfected to immediately destroy the virus, because it is going to continue to mutate and spread.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Living with COVID-19: Israel changes strategy as Delta variant hits*
JERUSALEM, July 13 (Reuters) - Four weeks ago, Israel was celebrating a return to normal life in its battle with COVID-19.
Before the Delta variant arrived, Israel had estimated 75% of the population would need to be vaccinated to reach "herd immunity" - the level at which enough of a population are immunized to be able to effectively stop a disease spreading. The estimated threshold is now 80%.

Such data ensure doctors remain concerned.

"...the virus won't stop. It is evolving, it's its nature. But our nature is to survive," said Dr Gadi Segal, head of the coronavirus ward at Sheba Medical Centre near Tel Aviv.


----------



## Spudd

james4beach said:


> Thanks @Ukrainiandude . I'm trying to get a second vaccination this week and will try my best to get the same shot for my second dose.


If you read the article, the WHO clarified this statement saying that individuals should not be mixing/matching on their own, but public health authorities are free to determine a mixing/matching policy. (at the end of the article)








WHO warns individuals against mixing and matching COVID vaccines


The World Health Organization's chief scientist has advised individualsagainst mixing and matching COVID-19 vaccines from different manufacturers, saying such decisions should be left to public health authorities.




www.reuters.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude

best to listen to the speech directly.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

“No data currently exist on the interchangeability of COVID-19 mRNA vaccines,” the NACI said in its recommendation. “However, there is no reason to believe that mRNA vaccine series completion with a different authorized mRNA vaccine product will result in any additional safety issues or deficiency in protection.”

so it’s all based on hypothesis without any solid data to back it up.


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## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> As of Sunday evening, 248 Israelis had tested positive for COVID since midnight, and 263 the day before. There are 3,984 active COVID cases, with 76 people in the hospital and 47 in serious condition, according to Health Ministry figures. Six people in Israel have died of COVID in the past week, including one person on Sunday.











Experts: Without restrictions, daily COVID cases could rise to 1,000 in 2 weeks


Hebrew University report urges government to adopt immediate new measures to curb outbreak, estimates vaccines 60-80% effective in preventing contagion for Delta variant




www.timesofisrael.com





*Experts: Without restrictions, daily COVID cases could rise to 1,000 in 2 weeks, - *however, even with some restrictions reinstated , today daily new cases hit almost 1,200! Crazy! (even though vast majority of new cases classified as mild). Israel is going to reinstate vaccine passport. I'm more and more confident tht we gonna get 4th wave in the fall.


----------



## gibor365

Spudd said:


> If you read the article, the WHO clarified this statement saying that individuals should not be mixing/matching on their own, but public health authorities are free to determine a mixing/matching policy. (at the end of the article)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHO warns individuals against mixing and matching COVID vaccines
> 
> 
> The World Health Organization's chief scientist has advised individualsagainst mixing and matching COVID-19 vaccines from different manufacturers, saying such decisions should be left to public health authorities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


And what the difference?! So, if public health authorities , for some financial or political reasons are telling that "mixing if fine" , we should trust them?!


----------



## Spudd

gibor365 said:


> And what the difference?! So, if public health authorities , for some financial or political reasons are telling that "mixing if fine" , we should trust them?!


Well, everyone can make their own decision, but I mixed for myself since they said it was fine. Preliminary research showed a better vaccine response with 1 AZ and 1 mRNA than with 2 AZ. Since I had AZ for my first, I was happy to get mRNA for my second.


----------



## damian13ster

gibor365 said:


> And what the difference?! So, if public health authorities , for some financial or political reasons are telling that "mixing if fine" , we should trust them?!


Vaccines work differently if you try to go out and have them mixed
vs
When public health authority tells you to go out and have them mixed.

Words of public health authority changes the way vaccines actually function - duh.
Don't question it


----------



## james4beach

Spudd said:


> If you read the article, the WHO clarified this statement saying that individuals should not be mixing/matching on their own, but public health authorities are free to determine a mixing/matching policy. (at the end of the article)


That's right. They only said that individuals should not do amateur mixing on their own.


----------



## gibor365

Spudd said:


> Well, everyone can make their own decision, but I mixed for myself since they said it was fine. Preliminary research showed a better vaccine response with 1 AZ and 1 mRNA than with 2 AZ. Since I had AZ for my first, I was happy to get mRNA for my second.


Same did my wife .... she just against my advise decided to have AZ as 1st dose


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> That's right. They only said that individuals should not do amateur mixing on their own.


If you listen to the video above, she actually didn’t say that the authorities can mix.


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> Vaccines work differently if you try to go out and have them mixed
> vs
> When public health authority tells you to go out and have them mixed.
> 
> Words of public health authority changes the way vaccines actually function - duh.
> Don't question it


LOL ... I often surprised how Canadians are naïve .
I understand if doctors were running test on every individual and telling him/her , based on some trials, that in this specific case to mix is fine ... but when they tell it's cool for everyone, it's fishy


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> *LOL ... I often surprised how Canadians are naïve .*
> I understand if doctors were running test on every individual and telling him/her , based on some trials, that in this specific case to mix is fine ...* but when they tell it's cool for everyone, it's fishy*


 ... why? You consider the doctors' advice as fishy and yet you're surprised how naive Canadians are? What a revelation.


----------



## james4beach

I've been putting in a pretty strong effort here to get my second shot... still not finding one.

So far, I've been denied vaccines by 3 clinics when I walked in.
Also denied by 2 phone agents today.

Apparently in my health region of this province, the eligibility date is very strict. Can't say I'm not trying, though. In different health regions (same province) they have looser requirements and allow walk-ins.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I've been putting in a pretty strong effort here to get my second shot... still not finding one.
> 
> So far, I've been denied vaccines by 3 clinics when I walked in.
> Also denied by 2 phone agents today.
> 
> Apparently in my health region of this province, the eligibility date is very strict. Can't say I'm not trying, though. In different health regions (same province) they have looser requirements and allow walk-ins.


Wow. Shots have been open to everyone here in Ontario for a few weeks now. Faced my first lineup with my daughters second shot. They decided to host a walk-in clinic from 1-3. Her appt was at 420. I guess they fell behind and we had about a 40 mins wait. Other than that, we got all our shots in/out in 20 mins.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> I've been putting in a pretty strong effort here to get my second shot... still not finding one.
> 
> So far, I've been denied vaccines by 3 clinics when I walked in.
> Also denied by 2 phone agents today.
> 
> Apparently in my health region of this province, the eligibility date is very strict. Can't say I'm not trying, though. In different health regions (same province) they have looser requirements and allow walk-ins.


Plenty of spots open here in Saskatchewan, Pfizer shot is available for tomorrow, for everyone with 28 day’s apart. In fact since restrictions were lifted on sunday today only 2.5 k people got vaccinated including first second dose, used to be up to 25k daily. No one wants it.


----------



## bgc_fan

Spudd said:


> If you read the article, the WHO clarified this statement saying that individuals should not be mixing/matching on their own, but public health authorities are free to determine a mixing/matching policy. (at the end of the article)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHO warns individuals against mixing and matching COVID vaccines
> 
> 
> The World Health Organization's chief scientist has advised individualsagainst mixing and matching COVID-19 vaccines from different manufacturers, saying such decisions should be left to public health authorities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


I think it should also be pointed out the context of the statement. It was with regards to follow-up booster shots, i.e. 2nd shot after J&J, or 3rd shot after the other vaccines.


----------



## sags

That makes a world of difference on the WHO statement then. 

In the Ontario press conference they referred to the statement today, but didn't include that important detail.

They said they follow the advice of the National Advisory Council on Immunization.........whoever they are.

A little better messaging on that WHO statement would have been nice.


----------



## bgc_fan

sags said:


> That makes a world of difference on the WHO statement then.
> 
> In the Ontario press conference they referred to the statement today, but didn't include that important detail.
> 
> They said they follow the advice of the National Advisory Council on Immunization.........whoever they are.
> 
> A little better messaging on that WHO statement would have been nice.


The problem is that statement is being passed around the media without the corresponding context. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-19-vaccine-mixing-and-matching-who-1.6101047

_The question came in the wake of Pfizer's announcement that it was seeking approval from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to make third doses. 

As part of a lengthy response, Swaminathan warned against individuals deciding for themselves whether or not they need extra doses. 

"There is a tendency now for people in countries with enough availability of vaccines to, you know, voluntarily start thinking about an additional dose," she said. 

"It's a little bit of a dangerous trend here where people are in a ... data-free, evidence-free zone as far as a mix and match," she said. "It will be a chaotic situation in countries if citizens start, you know, deciding when and who should be taking a second, or a third or a fourth dose."_

But when it's out there, it's a little too late to try to bring it back or correct the perception. Especially when it's only the sentence about mix and matching that got spread around.


----------



## sags

Sheesh........the statement being spread around wasn't even close to what the WHO guy said. They should have read his statement out live in the press conference to show they were following the best science and how some people are getting fooled by the incomplete statement. Honestly, it fooled me until you posted the full statement. 

Thanks for posting it.


----------



## gibor365

Israel starts administering third dose of Pfizer vaccine to at-risk adults




__





Loading…






www.washingtonpost.com


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## Ukrainiandude

Ukrainiandude said:


> best to listen to the speech directly.





bgc_fan said:


> The problem is that statement is being passed around the media without the corresponding context.


Here is the video of the speech where she warns against mixing the vaccines, I would like to hear the full press release, rather then free interpretation by mass media.
Post the whole video and let the public interpret. 
And regarding your CBC link, of course government is going to defend itself. I expected nothing less.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> WHO guy said


That was a female scientist.


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> Here is the video of the speech where she warns against mixing the vaccines, I would like to hear the full press release, rather then free interpretation by mass media.
> Post the whole video and let the public interpret.
> And regarding your CBC link, of course government is going to defend itself. I expected nothing less.


You did exactly what everyone else did. Show the cherry picked part of the speech (less than a minute of the speech), not the whole full press release, nor the question that prompted the statement. 
But you want the full press release? Here's a link to the *full 1 hr video*: WHO press conference on coronavirus disease (COVID-19) - 12 July 2021, you can start at the 27 min mark. The whole context was about boosters and people taking more vaccine shots after they've already been fully vaccinated.

From the transcript:

HE Thank you very much for taking my question. I wanted to pick up on something that the Director-General said in his opening remarks about some of the vaccine manufacturers trying to sell boosters while many countries have no access whatsoever to vaccine.

*00:27:41*

Has the WHO seen any data from Pfizer or any of the other manufacturers that would suggest to WHO that there is a serious decline in efficacy at six months that would require a booster shot?

What would trigger the need for a booster shot? Would simply an increase in mild cases be enough or would you need to see an increase in severe cases? Thank you.

TJ Thank you, Helen. Maybe we can call on Ann Lindstrand, who is on the line, to address this question. Ann.

AL Yes, thank you for your question. The booster doses; we have not any systematic... and enough evidence that can point us to the need for booster doses. There is a decline, as there is with many different vaccines but if you have, as we propose in all of our specific policies on the vaccines from SAGE, a full course of vaccination of any of the WHO EUL vaccines you do have good protection.

If you look at it on the global public health impact at this moment in time we're confident that given a full course of the vaccines in place, at this point in time it's then more important to be able to vaccinate a larger global population with the vaccines we have rather than expanding to use the limited supply of doses we have in giving them to already-vaccinated populations.

*00:29:40*

So it's very, very important now to rethink in those countries who have either started or are thinking about starting to use booster doses, that they do reconsider and think of it from a global perspective and maybe hold off thinking about this policy change.

SAGE, our strategic advisory group of experts, are definitely looking at any evidence coming through on the need for and use of booster doses but at this point in time there's not enough data for us to point up the importance of booster doses and particularly with the limited global supply it is important to rethink if any country is pondering increasing and using booster doses and instead think of giving that supply or sharing that supply with countries that have not even reached their healthcare workers.

SS Just to add to what Ann said, I really want to caution folks because there is a tendency now for people in countries with enough availability of vaccines to voluntarily start thinking about an additional dose. There are people who are thinking about mixing and matching.

*00:31:08*

We receive a lot of queries from people who say they've taken one and they're planning to take another one so it's a little bit of a dangerous trend here where people are in a data-free, evidence-free zone as far as mix-and-match. There's limited data on mix-and-match.

There are studies going on; we need to wait for that and maybe it will be a very good approach but at the moment we only have data on the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine followed by Pfizer. So it will be a chaotic situation in countries if citizens start deciding when and who should be taking a second, third or fourth dose.

The other thing to add again is we are tracking the policies in countries. We have four countries that have announced a booster programme and a few more that are thinking about it. If 11 high and upper-middle-income countries decide - some of them are large countries - that they will go for a booster for their populations or even subgroups this will require an additional 800 million doses of vaccine.

The DG was just talking about why we need to prioritise doses through COVAX to go to countries where the front-line and healthcare workers have not been vaccinated and the elderly and the vulnerable.

*00:32:22*

So at this point when there is no scientific evidence to suggest that boosters are definitely needed, we have seen in some countries an increase in infections but no significant increase in hospitalisation or deaths and it may well be that you need boosters after a year or two years.

But at this point after six months of the primary dose there doesn't seem to be any indication and we'll continue to work with public health agencies around the world who are tracking this data. SAGE is following the evidence very carefully and we will make recommendations on boosters when we think they are needed.

It has to be based on the science and the data, not on individual companies declaring that their vaccines. should now be administered as a booster dose. Thanks.


----------



## gibor365

_ millions of other people vaccinated through a UN-backed effort -- could find themselves *barred from entering many European and other countries because those nations don't recognize the Indian-made version of the vaccine for travel. *
Although AstraZeneca vaccine produced in Europe has been authorized by the continent's drug regulatory agency_*, the same shot manufactured in India hasn't been given the green light.*

AFAIK, Canada got many inferior AZ from Serum, India... and our Liberal government with
_"The Honourable Anita Anand Minister of Public Services and Procurement"_
screwed up Canadians once more!

*








Immunized but banned: EU says not all COVID-19 vaccines equal


Millions of people who have been vaccinated through a UN-backed effort could find themselves barred from entering many European and other countries because those nations don't recognize the AstraZeneca version of the vaccine for travel.



www.ctvnews.ca




*
Here we go In Canada, _1.6 million people have received a jab of the European-made version of AstraZeneca, according to the government’s figures. *But another 272,000 people have been given at least one dose of the Covishield vaccine – leaving the future of their potential EU travel plans in limbo.* _

*








Over 270K Canadians got the Covishield vaccine. They may not be eligible for EU travel - National | Globalnews.ca


'So what we've got is a bureaucratic situation here that could well indeed stand in the way of people's freedom of travel,' said one Canadian bioethicist of COVID-19 passports.




globalnews.ca




*


----------



## gibor365

Just checked my wife receipt and look s she got non-indian AZ . under product name appears ASTRAZENECA COVID 19. She got lucky!
I said many times that IMHO all our mafia Trudeau, Hajdu, Ford, Elliot etc , lied that they got AZ and just did it to encourage Canadian to get inferior vaccine... But in case they weren't lying, I wish they received COVIDSHIELD , so they will be banned to enter EU


----------



## sags

People were in too much of a hurry and governments were under a lot of pressure to deliver vaccine to remove restrictions, so this is the end result.

WHO is obviously prioritizing using vaccine capacity to immunize the global population over administering a booster shot.

They are the World Health Organization so there stance is understandable, but meaningless to countries who are more concerned about protecting their own citizens than anyone else.

We do need to vaccinate the world.........Africa for example has a low vaccination rate, because the virus will continue to mutate and end up in Canada.

I suppose the solution is to do both. Ramp up vaccinations globally AND provide booster shots.

It can't be considered an "either - or" situation if we want protection in the future.


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> Israel starts administering third dose of Pfizer vaccine to at-risk adults
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonpost.com


It seems to be an Israeli problem. Maybe they got inferior Pfizer vaccine because they got early batches ? Something doesn't look right.


----------



## sags

My doctor has a Masters degree in Pharmacology, and her husband is a head ER doc, and her father is a retired well respected doctor.

She said the Moderna offers a higher level of immunity, so the Pfizer-Moderna shot combination provides a greater level of immunity.

So far.......so good.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> We receive a lot of queries from people who say they've taken one and they're planning to take another one so it's a little bit of a dangerous trend here where people are in a data-free, evidence-free zone as far as mix-and-match. There's limited data on mix-and-match.
> 
> There are studies going on; we need to wait for that and maybe it will be a very good approach but at the moment we only have data on the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine followed by Pfizer.


 Okay. But Canada health is still pushing other combinations, despite no data.


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> Okay. But Canada health is still pushing other combinations, despite no data.


The key is that Health Canada is going forward with it and are doing studies on it. The point is that people shouldn't just go get more shots just because they feel like it. Other countries are doing similar mixing: In first, Thailand to mix Sinovac, AstraZeneca vaccine doses.

As domestic supply is increasing, we're going to see less of an issue of mixing in Canada. But the likelihood of issues when mixing mRNA vaccines is pretty minimal.

However, Canadians overseas may have issues if they've taken other vaccines not approved by Health Canada. Which would bring up the question touched on at the press conference, should they go ahead and start taking other approved vaccines even if they've completed an initial treatment? https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-vaccine-expatriates-canada-quarantine-1.6093842


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> It seems to be an Israeli problem. Maybe they got inferior Pfizer vaccine because they got early batches ? Something doesn't look right.


You are talking nonsense! The reason because Israel finished full vaccination several months ago, with time passes vaccines become less effective... as per WHO, 4 countries started with boosters


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> It seems to be an Israeli problem. Maybe they got inferior Pfizer vaccine because they got early batches ? Something doesn't look right.


*Israeli data seems to show COVID vaccine protection starts fading after 6 months*
*Most of the vaccinated people who have been recently infected got the shot around January, figures given to Health Ministry show; some caution it’s too early to draw conclusions*


----------



## Beaver101

^ I guess it pays here to "follow" on a global scale.


----------



## sags

Why would the MRNA vaccines become ineffective when all they do is teach the bodies cells to recognize the virus early and attack it in force ? 

The cells don't seem to forget similar information about other viruses. That explanation sounds wonky to me.

More likely the vaccine is ineffective against the new variants. If that is the case, we will be getting vaccine shots every few months until there is a cure.

The summer is the low time for virus spread. If it is still around in the fall we are going to go through it all again.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> If it is still around in the fall


Do you believe it won’t?


----------



## sags

Australia is locking down people in their apartments in Sydney as the Delta is spreading rapidly.

Infection numbers are increasing in the US due to the Delta variant.

It looks like plans to remove restrictions, re-open and return to normal may be premature.


----------



## sags

Ukrainiandude said:


> Do you believe it won’t?


The experts say it won't if everyone gets vaccinated, but if vaccinations aren't effective that won't help either....so likely the virus will still be spreading.

I am thinking we best stock up on our food and supplies again, before the panic buying starts. The supply chains are already messed up from before.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> The experts say it won't if everyone gets vaccinated, but if vaccinations aren't effective that won't help either....so likely the virus will still be spreading.
> 
> I am thinking *we best stock up on our food* and supplies again, before the panic buying starts. The supply chains are already messed up from before.


Or just become vegan LOL


----------



## gibor365

_In Israel, the serious morbidity slightly increased: some 53 patients were in serious conditions on Wednesday, eight more than on Tuesday. However, the number remains limited compared to previous waves. In April, with a similar number of active cases – some 5,000 – there were over 300 patients in serious conditions.








COVID-19: Israel can defeat this outbreak in 5 weeks - Bennett


*Israel registers over 750 cases for second day in a row, serious morbidity slightly increases. * Cabinet meeting on Tuesday ends with no new restrictions.




www.jpost.com




_


----------



## sags

As one of the first countries vaccinated, it looks like Israel is the canary in the coal mine, sending a warning to other countries on what is coming for them.

We best be very careful on what we open up and be ready to close down at the first hint of trouble. We can't hum and haw for weeks and months like before.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> ready to close down


*Return of Sask. COVID-19 restrictions unlikely following reopening: health minister.*


----------



## bgc_fan

Today I learned that some Toronto strip clubs have a higher requirement for covid vaccination than health clubs.




__





CityNews







www.680news.com


----------



## sags

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Return of Sask. COVID-19 restrictions unlikely following reopening: health minister.*


So what is their plan if the virus starts spreading ?


----------



## sags

Why are either of them open ? I wouldn't consider strip clubs and gyms as essential.

Go for a run or watch porn on the computer if you feel the need to get all sweaty and breathing hard.


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## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> Today I learned that some Toronto strip clubs have a higher requirement for covid vaccination than health clubs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CityNews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.680news.com


Make sense! I also gonna ask owner ofRussian banja (Steamul, where we are patrons) to do the same, as it’s obvious that you cannot keep distance in sauna or steam room


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Saskatchewan saw its third day of less than 7,000 vaccines given out, despite a plethora of walk-in clinics and available appointments, as it reported 18 new cases of COVID-19 on Wednesday.
A total of 6,358 vaccine doses were given out on Tuesday, with only 20 per cent of those being used as first shots. Vaccine demand seems to be slowing, with Wednesday marking the third consecutive day the province has seen low new vaccine doses. Tuesday saw under 2,500 new doses and Monday saw under 5,500 doses.
Ways to get vaccinated, however, were plentiful on Wednesday. Saskatoon’s drive-thru clinic had less than a 15 minute wait time from the time it opened through early afternoon. A Regina walk-in clinic also had less than 15 minute wait times from the time it opened. A pop-up clinic in Regina’s Wascana Park had virtually no lineup. A quick search in the Saskatchewan Health Authority’s (SHA) appointment database showed hundreds of open appointments over the next week.
First doses have nearly stalled, with 73 per cent of residents ages 12 and up having had their first shot. Fifty-six per cent have now been fully vaccinated with two doses, according to a news release.


----------



## sags

The federal government may have to adjust the vaccine distribution if Provinces aren't using them.

In Ontario our grandson has to wait until August for a "move up" appointment for his 2nd shot.

My son and his construction buddies are working so much in Toronto that they can't book appointment for the 1st shot. None of them are vaccinated.

I wish their employer or union would set something up. When they work 60-70 hours a week and are staying in hotels it makes it difficult to get vaccinated.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> Ontario


How many vaccinated with first and second shots in your province?


----------



## sags

Not enough.......send us your unwanted vaccine asap.

We got arms and we got jabbers. All we need is the golden elixer that cures all.


----------



## Money172375

sags said:


> The federal government may have to adjust the vaccine distribution if Provinces aren't using them.
> 
> In Ontario our grandson has to wait until August for a "move up" appointment for his 2nd shot.
> 
> My son and his construction buddies are working so much in Toronto that they can't book appointment for the 1st shot. None of them are vaccinated.
> 
> I wish their employer or union would set something up. When they work 60-70 hours a week and are staying in hotels it makes it difficult to get vaccinated.


Wow. I can’t believe people who want a first shot haven’t received one. There are clinics everywhere….some run 36 hours straight. Tell his boss to shove it…..and got get vaccinated.

and your grandson? My teens got their shots 5 weeks apart. Why does he need to wait ? No appointments in your area? Go to another mass clinic, they’ll take anyone. Apparently my region, simcoe muskoka has a lot of out of towners coming here, since there appears to be a lot of hesitancy in the local rural townships..


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Wow. I can’t believe people who want a first shot haven’t received one. There are clinics everywhere….some run 36 hours straight. Tell his boss to shove it…..and got get vaccinated.
> 
> and your grandson? My teens got their shots 5 weeks apart. Why does he need to wait ? No appointments in your area? Go to another mass clinic, they’ll take anyone. Apparently my region, simcoe muskoka has a lot of out of towners coming here, since there appears to be a lot of hesitancy in the local rural townships..


Looks like sags live in different Ontario


----------



## sags

Toronto got priority in vaccine distributions because of the 'hot spots" and because Ford is facing an election and badly needs votes from the GTA to win.

Our local health authority was on television complaining about getting short changed on vaccine allotment, but it hasn't changed.

My 12 year old grandson had his appointment "moved up" to early August. It used to be in mid-September.

Our son's partner and her kids also only have one vaccination and have appointments for later in the year.

The Ontario news conferences seem like they are talking about a different world. They talk of going around and injecting the homeless and all kinds of neighborhood clinics.

We got none of that. Maybe once in a while a pharmacy announces a "pop up" clinic, but there are no appointments and you stand in long lineups for hours and hope they don't run out.

Our doctor announced they had some Moderna but quickly gave it all out and stopped the vaccinations.

Our son is going to have to take time off work, but he can't even do that until he can get an appointment........likely in September now.

Maybe he can stop at a pop up clinic if one opens around where he works. It isn't just him. None of his crew or buddies have any vaccination shots.

The employer talked about organizing a clinic but nothing came of it because they don't have enough vaccine. It is all going to Toronto.

I talked to my son and his buddies on the weekend and they are starting to say why bother now. The vaccines aren't working against the variants anyways.

I say......get vaccinated and they say........where ?

As I posted before........there is one resident and some staff at her retirement home who refuse to be vaccinated and today they stopped the mandatory testing, so what you gonna do.


----------



## bgc_fan

gibor365 said:


> Make sense! I also gonna ask owner ofRussian banja (Steamul, where we are patrons) to do the same, as it’s obvious that you cannot keep distance in sauna or steam room


I'll just mention that moist or wet masks probably provide limited protection. And I think a sauna or steam room counts as that sort of environment, unless you plan on replacing it regularly.

If you are able to wear a mask, remove your mask if it gets moist from sweat and replace it with a clean mask.


----------



## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> I'll just mention that moist or wet masks probably provide limited protection. And I think a sauna or steam room counts as that sort of environment, unless you plan on replacing it regularly.
> 
> If you are able to wear a mask, remove your mask if it gets moist from sweat and replace it with a clean mask.


I don't think (and I don't care) anybody will be coming to 110-120C wearing mask . But enterance to fully vaccinated only is nice to have


----------



## damian13ster

gibor365 said:


> I don't think (and I don't care) anybody will be coming to 110-120C wearing mask . But enterance to fully vaccinated only is nice to have


What for? Virus doesn't survive at about 60 degrees.


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> What for? Virus doesn't survive at about 60 degrees.


Yeah, but we are not all the time in sauna ... There are hot tub, cold pool. restaurant , people just socialize on the premise ....


----------



## sags

Trump said ultraviolet light kills the virus instantly, so maybe they could have an area that bathed your body with ultraviolet light for say 30 minutes, and then you would be clean and pure for the sauna and other areas of the abode. I don't know......but maybe the cooties show up under ultraviolet light and you can just vacuum them off into a sterile container.

As a bonus, the ultraviolet light may kill off any other crustaceous creatures that may be lingering about.

It is worth a shot. Talk to the bath house manager about it.


----------



## bgc_fan

gibor365 said:


> I don't think (and I don't care) anybody will be coming to 110-120C wearing mask . But enterance to fully vaccinated only is nice to have


Yeah, nvm, for some reason I read it as you were going to ask the boss to mandate masks. It was a late response.


----------



## Spudd

sags said:


> I say......get vaccinated and they say........where ?


For the people having trouble, Walmart has a really nice online booking system. 

There's also the Vaccine Hunters website which is awesome:








Find Your Immunization - Vaccine Hunters Canada


A community to supplement COVID-19 vaccination initiatives and help eligible Canadians find vaccines.



appointments.vaccinehunters.ca


----------



## Money172375

sags said:


> Toronto got priority in vaccine distributions because of the 'hot spots" and because Ford is facing an election and badly needs votes from the GTA to win.
> 
> Our local health authority was on television complaining about getting short changed on vaccine allotment, but it hasn't changed.
> 
> My 12 year old grandson had his appointment "moved up" to early August. It used to be in mid-September.
> 
> Our son's partner and her kids also only have one vaccination and have appointments for later in the year.
> 
> The Ontario news conferences seem like they are talking about a different world. They talk of going around and injecting the homeless and all kinds of neighborhood clinics.
> 
> We got none of that. Maybe once in a while a pharmacy announces a "pop up" clinic, but there are no appointments and you stand in long lineups for hours and hope they don't run out.
> 
> Our doctor announced they had some Moderna but quickly gave it all out and stopped the vaccinations.
> 
> Our son is going to have to take time off work, but he can't even do that until he can get an appointment........likely in September now.
> 
> Maybe he can stop at a pop up clinic if one opens around where he works. It isn't just him. None of his crew or buddies have any vaccination shots.
> 
> The employer talked about organizing a clinic but nothing came of it because they don't have enough vaccine. It is all going to Toronto.
> 
> I talked to my son and his buddies on the weekend and they are starting to say why bother now. The vaccines aren't working against the variants anyways.
> 
> I say......get vaccinated and they say........where ?
> 
> As I posted before........there is one resident and some staff at her retirement home who refuse to be vaccinated and today they stopped the mandatory testing, so what you gonna do.


I think prioritizing one region over another for supply has stopped. What region are you in?


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> I think prioritizing one region over another for supply has stopped. What region are you in?


Money, hence you also don't live in GTA and I understand you family didn't have a big trouble to be fully vaccinated, right?! IMHO, sags is spend too much time on CMF and finding excuses LOL..
Actually , when I was looking to book 2nd dose on Ontario website, the earliest appointments weren't in GTA at all


----------



## sags

The earliest re-booking at the vaccination clinic would be September by now.

Walmart says they started vaccinations two days ago. It is by appointment only and I don't know the earliest appointments.

We do have some clinics set up in schools opening up. They will offer one school location per day for 4 hours.....Monday to Thursday.

It doesn't appear to me they are in any rush to vaccinate people, likely because some of our vaccine supply was sent to Toronto.





__





Vaccination Clinics — Middlesex-London Health Unit


There are many places to get the COVID-19 vaccine in London and Middlesex County. Find the full list of clinic dates, times and locations.



www.healthunit.com


----------



## andrewf

I don't think it is all that difficult to get vaccinated in Ontario currently.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> I don't think it is all that difficult to get vaccinated in Ontario currently.


Unless you want it to be difficult 😥


----------



## james4beach

I just got my second shot yesterday. I had a pretty rough night, had trouble sleeping, and woke up with a fever. Definitely "sick" today.

Apparently these kinds of reactions (developing a flu) are more common under age 65, and older people don't tend to see this.

Happy to get vaccinated though. This was my 3rd of 4th attempt at a walk-in. After being rejected all the first times, finally I got in!


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> I just got my second shot yesterday. I had a pretty rough night, had trouble sleeping, and woke up with a fever. Definitely "sick" today.
> 
> Apparently these kinds of reactions (developing a flu) are more common under age 65, and older people don't tend to see this.
> 
> Happy to get vaccinated though. This was my 3rd of 4th attempt at a walk-in. After being rejected all the first times, finally I got in!


Congrats on getting second vaccination. My kids had much worst reactions the second time, similar to yours, mine was more mild. I was worried because I felt pretty fine, just tired and off. I tried and magnet on all of us, nothing... 

I did go vaccine hunting and spent hours getting on lists and calling, but in my province, people are able to just drop in now at vaccination centres.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

According to Doctor Ali Hassoun, Infectious Disease Specialist at Huntsville Hospital, this trend was expected. Generally, the younger a person is, the stronger immune response the person will have.

“It’s more related to how robust their immune systems are, where they can mount more immune responses compared to the older population,” Hassoun said.
Young people have stronger immune responses, which can cause side effects
People in their 20s and 30s may have more intense side effects compared to older folks. That's because our immune systems gradually deteriorate with age, experts previously told Insider.

"Younger individuals have a much more vigorous immune response, so it should make sense that they would also have more side effects," Dr. Vivek Cherian, an internal-medicine physician in Baltimore, told Insider's Aria Bendix.


----------



## sags

Good news here........they are planning on opening up "walk ins" at the mass clinics, so no appointment necessary.

Unfortunately you must be there by 4 pm. as they close at 5 and don't want left over vaccine. 

Hopefully our son will get a shot this weekend, although the company wants them to work.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> According to Doctor Ali Hassoun, Infectious Disease Specialist at Huntsville Hospital, this trend was expected. Generally, the younger a person is, the stronger immune response the person will have.
> 
> “It’s more related to how robust their immune systems are, where they can mount more immune responses compared to the older population,” Hassoun said.
> Young people have stronger immune responses, which can cause side effects
> People in their 20s and 30s may have more intense side effects compared to older folks. That's because our immune systems gradually deteriorate with age, experts previously told Insider.
> 
> "Younger individuals have a much more vigorous immune response, so it should make sense that they would also have more side effects," Dr. Vivek Cherian, an internal-medicine physician in Baltimore, told Insider's Aria Bendix.


This is simply NOT TRUE! Everything is individual. Our kids 19 and 25 and myself 55 -> didn't have any side effects AT ALL. My wife , who is the healthiest, had very strong side effect both times


----------



## gibor365

As per Israel report _"Only "a few hundred" of the 5.5 million people who have been vaccinated in Israel have later been infected with COVID-19, "_

As per Russian major channel 1TV.ru , after daily cases in Moscow dropped 30% all restrictions got lifted ... actually the only restriction was to be fully vaccinated (QR code) to attend some venues


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Its really not looking good for vaccinated people vs delta in EU. Highest vax rate nations = highest infection rate. 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6aa-k0XsAU7MCf.jpg


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415787720614440963
The good news is this variant appears to be weaker overall to both vax or not. Natural immunity plus weaker virus should be well on its way to getting rid of this threat. 

The bad news is they keep lying to us (and most continue to believe the lies), despite their own data not at all aligning with the narrative we are being fed. 









Probable Misclassification of Vaccine Deaths as COVID-19 Deaths


The Chloroquine Wars Part XLIV




roundingtheearth.substack.com





Hope everyone has a great weekend, and if you don't, blame it on the unvaccinated.


----------



## bgc_fan

Except deaths per capita is still low, which is on of the points of vaccination.









Of course the other factor is age considering that they only started vaccination 16 and 17 year olds a couple of weeks ago. We know that's why the UK situation is so bad is that they hadn't vaccinated those under the age of 18, which is why delta variant is so prevalent in that age group. https://www.pio.gov.cy/coronavirus/... year olds who are not registered in GeSY.pdf


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Death rates are low with delta variant regardless of vaxxed or not. In fact the trend lines in Europe is showing hospitalizations are pretty even wether vaxxed or not. But vaxxed are trending in a worse direction (increasing case rates/ hospitalizations) as more data comes out and "natural" folks are trending in a positive direction. This could imply natural immunity is working, or could also imply that vaccination is compromising immunity. 

I have a hunch this data will be censored or manipulated in due time.

Meanwhile in Canada, Trudeau has lined uo "boosters" into the foreseeable future (what a hero!). The lies and agenda continue despite our own data showing this isn't working. 






The real "conspiracy" here is that this agenda has anything to do with public health.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

5Lgreenback said:


> this agenda has anything to do with public health.


 I wonder of the choice. Why Pfizer? Why not Moderna, or Astra Zeneca, or Chinese sinovac, or perhaps Canadian brand vaccine? 
Did the government get its $$$ percentage from each contract signed with big pharma?
Corruption on big scale?
anyhow I am not planning to participate in this shady enterprise. I got one dose and that’s enough for me for the years to come.


----------



## sags

In the heavily populated area around Los Angeles, there is not a single vaccinated person among the infected in the hospital.

From across the US it is pretty clear the Delta is spreading among the un-vaccinated people and leading to hospitalizations and death.


----------



## sags

The UK study shows that almost half the infections (47%) were among people with at least one vaccination shot, but they experienced mild symptoms.

The statistics clearly show that a full vaccination provides protection against anything more than simple symptoms of the infection, and a single dose provides some protection.

The full brunt of the worst symptoms is among the un-vaccinated.





__





Loading…






news.yahoo.com


----------



## sags

If those blood samples are remotely true, and Moderna is causing such damage to the blood cells, other researchers would already have observed it long ago.

In the hospital........they take blood samples on a regular basis. When I had appendicitis infection they drew blood at least twice a day to examine it.

I remain skeptical that this type of information is credible and being withheld by everyone but some unknown doctor on an obscure website.

If this information is real and being deliberately withheld from the public........ there will be hell to pay for politicians and health authorities.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> If those blood samples are remotely true, and Moderna is causing such damage to the blood cells, other researchers would already have observed it long ago.


I think she is a scam.

I don’t think anyone who didn’t sleep through biology class would believe those preposterous claims.


----------



## sags

Then the authorities should search out the "doctor" and the web posters and put them in prison. They are recklessly costing lives.

It is time for the government to stop "asking nicely" for Facebook and other social media to control their content.

The solution isn't that complicated. Require the social media to verify and maintain the identity of those posting the material or shut them down totally.

Then it is easier to track them down than scouring the internet for fake and harmful information. Make some examples of these people and it will soon stop.

They possess no inherent "right" to knowingly endanger others.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Russia tried to spread dangerous lies about Pfizer vaccine, France suspects*
*French officials likened the lies to campaigns run by Russia's Internet Research Agency.








Russia tried to spread dangerous lies about Pfizer vaccine, France suspects


French officials likened the lies to campaigns run by Russia's Internet Research Agency.




arstechnica.com






https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/05/26/influencers-offered-money-pfizer-discredit-russia/


*


----------



## sags

I find it odd that if I threaten to punch someone in the face, I can be charged with assault..........just for threatening to do it.

Yet, people can fill the internet with dangerous misinformation that endangers lives and.........oh well, they got rights.

**** their rights. Start putting them in prison and they can exercise their rights in there.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

sags said:


> In the heavily populated area around Los Angeles, there is not a single vaccinated person among the infected in the hospital.
> 
> From across the US it is pretty clear the Delta is spreading among the un-vaccinated people and leading to hospitalizations and death.


I don't buy that narrative anymore, these folks have been caught lying and using manipulated data too many times. The CDC stopped accurately recording "breakthrough" cases back in May (how convenient), so how can they possibly know whats really going on? I don't think they would show us anything that doesn't support their agenda. The US data, and likely Canada, is suspect at best.

The very article you linked shows unvaccinated cases have peaked and are now dropping rapidly (-20% per week), vaccinated case are increasing even more rapidly (40% increase per week). So, vaccinated people appear to be keeping this variant going??? But lets shame our neighbours for being healthy and relying on natural immunity. Or god forbid, early treatment of the disease thats proven to be VERY treatable.

Most data I've seen shows no significant difference between vax or not in severity of symptoms. But of course articles and rigged science are going to pump that story line. What else can they cling to after all this?

Anecdotally from contacts in the US, they are stating that reality certainly seems to be a far cry from what they are seeing on the TV/ computer newsfeeds.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

sags said:


> I find it odd that if I threaten to punch someone in the face, I can be charged with assault..........just for threatening to do it.
> 
> Yet, people can fill the internet with dangerous misinformation that endangers lives and.........oh well, they got rights.
> 
> **** their rights. Start putting them in prison and they can exercise their rights in there.



The trouble is, those your are asking to be the Orwellian protectors of "truth", have proven to be themselves corrupted and, well very Orwellian. At the moment you seem to be comfortable with their narrative and lies, I doubt that will last very long.

And I'm sorry which doctor and which blood samples are you speaking of? I must have missed something.


----------



## sags

The link shows that almost half the cases were vaccinated and half were unvaccinated.

That vaccinated people can get the virus is well known. The vaccines protect against the worst symptoms and the study confirms that symptoms among those vaccinated are mild. No studies show that the unvaccinated have some kind of magical protection against the virus.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Ukrainiandude said:


> I wonder of the choice. Why Pfizer? Why not Moderna, or Astra Zeneca, or Chinese sinovac, or perhaps Canadian brand vaccine?
> Did the government get its $$$ percentage from each contract signed with big pharma?
> Corruption on big scale?
> anyhow I am not planning to participate in this shady enterprise. I got one dose and that’s enough for me for the years to come.


Why I don't know? But to me it was clear this wasn't going to end at one "booster".

According to the EU Data, Ukraine has one of the lowest vaccination rates (5%) yet covid case wise they are doing excellent. Do you have any contacts in Ukraine? I'd be curious to hear some info from even if it is anecdotal.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Russia tried to spread dangerous lies about Pfizer vaccine, France suspects*
> *French officials likened the lies to campaigns run by Russia's Internet Research Agency.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia tried to spread dangerous lies about Pfizer vaccine, France suspects
> 
> 
> French officials likened the lies to campaigns run by Russia's Internet Research Agency.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> arstechnica.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/05/26/influencers-offered-money-pfizer-discredit-russia/
> 
> 
> *


What a stupid conspiracy theories by Washington Post!!! 


> According to the influencers, they were approached online and asked to tell their large followings that the Pfizer vaccine is dangerous and has sparked more deaths than the one developed by AstraZeneca and Oxford University.


What the point for Russia to bash Pfizer and promote AZ?! If anyone is interested in promoting AZ - it's UK and Canada (in the past) 


> Earlier this month, Drotschmann tweeted he had been asked to join an online “information campaign,” with organizers inviting him to share supposedly leaked documents about deaths after Pfizer-BioNTech vaccinations.* He told his followers the chief executive of the company appeared to be based in Moscow, but he did not name the company or people who had contacted him. *


Wow! looks like "witch hunt"  ....so now we know that Putin is responsible that French don't want to be vaccinated...what a joke?!


----------



## 5Lgreenback

And so the tale of Ivermectin (and numerous other repurposed cheap drugs) being squandered and intentionally confused by those who must have a vested interest, as well as deep pockets, continues.

This article is well written and its similar to what I've been finding with regards to questionable science and papers, being used to squash credible science.

But don't worry he is much more clear and articulate than I am.









The Meta-Analytical Fixers: An Ivermectin Tale


The Chloroquine Wars Part XL




roundingtheearth.substack.com





At this point we can only hope for an uprising from citizens telling them to stuff these so called "vaccines", and allow the use of prophylactic drugs and early treatment methods. Like many other countries have been doing.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

5Lgreenback said:


> Why I don't know? But to me it was clear this wasn't going to end at one "booster".
> 
> According to the EU Data, Ukraine has one of the lowest vaccination rates (5%) yet covid case wise they are doing excellent. Do you have any contacts in Ukraine? I'd be curious to hear some info from even if it is anecdotal.


 All my relatives are in Ukraine. My parents, brother and sister in law got fully vaccinated with Astra Zeneca/Covishield. 
My grandparents, uncle, his wife and cousins are not vaccinated. Grandparents had covid, they old, recovered and weak. Grandma was weak (unsure if covid related or age related) and felt (1.5 months after covid I guess) and damaged her hip, can’t walk now. I wish grandparents were willing to get vaccinated when they were offered. Old people are sometimes refusal of the chemical unknown for them substances.
Indian delta variant that’s widespread in Russia only starting its ascent in Ukraine. Hopefully majority of vulnerable people going to get vaccinated before the late fall, winter, otherwise it might get brutal (based on what Russia has now).


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> What the point for Russia to bash Pfizer and promote AZ?!


Russian vaccine and Astra Zeneca are both based on the same vector technology. This could be the reason.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Russian vaccine and Astra Zeneca are both based on the same vector technology. This could be the reason.


A very weak reason! All Chinese vaccines are also based on vector... Maybe actually Moderna is interested to bash Pfizer LOL... This article is just funny scam LOL


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> Wow! looks like "witch hunt"  ....so now we know that Putin is responsible that French don't want to be vaccinated...what a joke?!


 Some countries (like Saudi Arabia) spend their petrol dollars on increasing wellbeing of their people, others (like Russia) prefer to spend them on spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD).


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> This article is just funny scam LOL


 I don’t think so. On contrary after numerous fakes from Russia, I don’t believe anything that comes out from their media. Here is of topic as one example. And it was recirculated on federal channels during the prime time. 
Russian ‘satellite image’ of MH17 being shot down by fighter jet dismissed as ‘crude fake’








Russian ‘satellite image’ of MH17 being shot down by fighter jet dismissed as ‘crude fake’


Russian TV presented the image, said to have been taken moments before the passenger jet crashed in eastern Ukraine, as a smoking gun to confirm how it had…




nationalpost.com


----------



## 5Lgreenback

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1416426648971489283
Happy to see people are arisng from their slumber. Will the MSM continue to hide/ downplay these record breaking protests? What will us Canadians do when the time comes?

Unrelated but simple tweet that gave me a good chuckle by documentary maker Errol Webber.

"At this point, conspiracy theories might as well be called spoiler alerts."


----------



## Ukrainiandude

_COVID-19 has caused approximately 6.9 million deaths, more than double what official numbers show, according to a new analysis by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME) at the University of Washington School of Medicine. IHME found that COVID-19 deaths are significantly underreported in almost every country.










COVID-19 has caused 6.9 million deaths globally, more than double what official reports show


New analysis from IHME highlights the true toll of the pandemic.




www.healthdata.org











_


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Some countries (like Saudi Arabia) spend their petrol dollars on increasing wellbeing of their people, others (like Russia) prefer to spend them on spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD).


GDP per capita 11600usd, Ukraine 3700usd! So, Russia’s is more than 3 times higher than in Ukraine( despite all ridiculous sanctions )! Because Russia spent a lot of money supporting well-being of Russian people , Ukraine spent US$ to fight Russian minority and Russian language in Ukraine.

Ukraine also for a long time denied shooting down passengers plane Tel-Aviv-Novosibirsk above Black Sea!

Interesting, that as per Washington post fake news, only France got affected by this so-called anti-Pfizer movement 😁


----------



## Money172375

Who would have thought this was possible a few months ago?









Canada’s 2nd dose vaccinations surpass U.S. as Americans grapple with COVID-19 surge - National | Globalnews.ca


As of Saturday, Canada has vaccinated 48.64 per cent of the population with two doses compared to 48.4 per cent of the American population.




globalnews.ca


----------



## andrewf

Money172375 said:


> Who would have thought this was possible a few months ago?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada’s 2nd dose vaccinations surpass U.S. as Americans grapple with COVID-19 surge - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> As of Saturday, Canada has vaccinated 48.64 per cent of the population with two doses compared to 48.4 per cent of the American population.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


I'm not at all surprised! I was baffled by people freaking out about how disastrous Canada's vaccine rollout was in March/April.


----------



## kcowan

It is easy to win the race when the competitor stops running! The Delta variant seems to be focused on GOP states. That will eventually improve their penetration numbers.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

It amazing how well the delta can discriminate. I mean, in Europe it loves vaccinated people, in North America it loves unvaccinated. In Europe delta symptomatic severity seems to be on par for both vaxxed or not, but the trend is in the negative direction for vaccinated. In America it only targets 99% unvaccinated for both transmission and severity. Truly remarkable!

We really need someone to study what this virus is thinking. Is it racist perhaps? At least we can be thankful it loves the obedient folks on this side of the pond.

Of course we can't prove the "conspiracy theorists" right yet again, so the censorship of the data in Europe begins as hospitals are now refusing to give numbers on covid positive vaccinated patients. This censorship is necessary for our protection, I understand.









London hospitals refuse to say how many Covid patients have been vaccinated


NHS trusts in South and West London won't reveal how many patients received one or two doses




www.mylondon.news


----------



## Ukrainiandude

5Lgreenback said:


> in Europe it loves vaccinated people, in North America it loves unvaccinated.


The effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine against the Delta variant is “weaker” than health officials had hoped, Prime Minister Naftali Bennett said on Friday, as over 1,000 people tested positive for coronavirus and more countries were added to the list of places to which Israelis will be banned from traveling.

“We do not know exactly to what degree the vaccine helps, but it is significantly less,” Bennett said.

At the moment, around 60% of the patients in serious conditions have been vaccinated. Moreover, according to Hebrew University researchers who advise the government, around 90% of newly infected people over the age of 50 are fully vaccinated.

The “*percent of cases that turn critically ill is now 1.6%, compared to 4% at a similar stage in the third wave when there were no vaccines*,” Prof. Eran Segal, a computational biologist at the Weizmann Institute of Science who advises the coronavirus cabinet, tweeted on Friday.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Whats the difference between a conspiracy and the truth?

About 6 months. (maybe less these days)

Lancet Letter (Feb 2020) to Scientists around the world threatening to call them conspiracy theorists if they investigate the lab leak:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1401813071635501056
The Lancet has been caught red handed in at least 2 scandals this pandemic, if the Lancet is comprised you can bet medical community is compromised. 

IMO this was clear before the pandemic from my years nerding out on nutritional studies, they sometimes overlap with pharma/ drug studies. But this pandemic has revealed its *so much worse* than we thought.

Rigging studies is common place, marketing is presented to us as science, and no one has perfected this art better than pharma. And if you can capture the very agencies that are supposed to regulate you, well just look at whats happening around the world today.

How to Rig the research:









How to Rig Research: The WHO Edition


The Chloroquine Wars Part XXXIII




roundingtheearth.substack.com





The propaganda is so strong, they still have people convinced their vaccine won't work, unless they force everyone around them to get it as well!


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## Ukrainiandude

_Israel: Over 1000 daily cases, for the first time in 4 months On the other hand, when we first crossed 1000 in the 3rd wave (Nov. 25), there were on average 29 new critically ill patients per day. This week 8 (daily). _

It looks like the new variant (Indian) is simply less likely to turn people critical than alpha (British) was?


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## Spudd

It saddens me to see people who are otherwise rational falling prey to the misinformation around the vaccines.









Just 12 People Are Behind Most Vaccine Hoaxes On Social Media, Research Shows


The majority of false claims about COVID-19 vaccines on social media trace back to just a handful of influential figures. So why don't the companies just shut them down?




www.npr.org


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## 5Lgreenback

Ukrainiandude said:


> The effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine against the Delta variant is “weaker” than health officials had hoped, Prime Minister Naftali Bennett said on Friday, as over 1,000 people tested positive for coronavirus and more countries were added to the list of places to which Israelis will be banned from traveling.
> 
> “We do not know exactly to what degree the vaccine helps, but it is significantly less,” Bennett said.
> 
> At the moment, around 60% of the patients in serious conditions have been vaccinated. Moreover, according to Hebrew University researchers who advise the government, around 90% of newly infected people over the age of 50 are fully vaccinated.
> 
> The “*percent of cases that turn critically ill is now 1.6%, compared to 4% at a similar stage in the third wave when there were no vaccines*,” Prof. Eran Segal, a computational biologist at the Weizmann Institute of Science who advises the coronavirus cabinet, tweeted on Friday.


Yes, thats the article I posted. The data shows, especially in the UK that natural people are starting to fair better vs delta than vaccinated, Israel data though smaller sample size is trending in the same direction. Of course the media articles are going to try and dance around the numbers and downplay what this indicates.

As for the 1.6 vs 4%, that probably has more to do with the much weaker variant.

Of course, the data censoring has started yet again, people will snap back into their trances soon enough and beg for our booster shots. Silly of us to question authorities after all.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> It saddens me to see people who are otherwise rational falling prey to the misinformation around the vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just 12 People Are Behind Most Vaccine Hoaxes On Social Media, Research Shows
> 
> 
> The majority of false claims about COVID-19 vaccines on social media trace back to just a handful of influential figures. So why don't the companies just shut them down?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


Johns hopkins and Government data is a conspiracy? I agree it may well be, but not in the direction your implying.

The real goal of the article you posted, and many other just like it is preparing people to embrace more authoritarian control and censorship. Its clearly working.


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## Ukrainiandude

5Lgreenback said:


> natural people are starting to fair better vs delta than vaccinated





5Lgreenback said:


> much weaker variant


Yeah, I had the same thought for a moment, but in Russia it’s Indian delta variant and majority of people are unvaccinated. And it’s bad. 


Russia on Sunday reported 25,018 new coronavirus cases and 764 deaths as the country battles the surging Delta variant.
Russia has confirmed 5,958,133 cases of coronavirus and 148,419 deaths, according to the national coronavirus information center. Russia’s total excess fatality count since the start of the coronavirus pandemic is around 483,000.


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## Spudd

5Lgreenback said:


> Yes, thats the article I posted. The data shows, especially in the UK that natural people are starting to fair better vs delta than vaccinated, Israel data though smaller sample size is trending in the same direction. Of course the media articles are going to try and dance around the numbers and downplay what this indicates.
> 
> As for the 1.6 vs 4%, that probably has more to do with the much weaker variant.
> 
> Of course, the data censoring has started yet again, people will snap back into their trances soon enough and beg for our booster shots. Silly of us to question authorities after all.


Israel data shows the vaccine is 64% effective against delta, where 100% means no vaccinated people get it, and 0% means the same number of vaccinated vs unvaccinated people get it.




__





Loading…






www.gov.il





In UK, they find that if you have 2 doses, your chances of being hospitalized by the virus is reduced by 90%.








UK Covid infections rise as Delta variant dominates


There is some regional variation in infection rates and some good news on vaccine efficacy.



www.bbc.com













Fact check: Do COVID vaccines protect against the delta variant? | DW | 15.07.2021


In the United Kingdom, people have died of the delta variant despite being vaccinated. Are existing COVID-19 vaccines still effective? A look at the facts shows: Yes, complete vaccinations still protect against delta.




www.dw.com


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## sags

Even without statistics, the doctors working in the hospitals are saying that almost all the patients in the ICU are not vaccinated.

Forget the number crunchers and listen to what the doctors putting in ventilator tubes are saying.

If people are seriously ill from COVID and in the hospitals......it is the doctors and nurses who are the most reliable source of information.

They all say.....get vaccinated or face bad consequences, so believe them or some unaccountable person on the internet.


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## damian13ster

Yes. Ignore the data! Ignore the facts!
Base your opinion on anecdotes


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## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> _Israel: Over 1000 daily cases, for the first time in 4 months On the other hand, when we first crossed 1000 in the 3rd wave (Nov. 25), there were on average 29 new critically ill patients per day. This week 8 (daily). _
> 
> It looks like the new variant (Indian) is simply less likely to turn people critical than alpha (British) was?


It looks like vaccines (at least mRNA once) are working


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## damian13ster

gibor365 said:


> It looks like vaccines (at least mRNA once) are working


Yes, they have some effect.
The new data does move the risk to benefit equation though.
Since benefit is no longer 93% effectiveness but closer to 56-60% effectiveness, then a risk that is significant for males under 30 suddenly starts looking pretty bad.
I was at the vaccination clinic yesterday for 2nd dose. During that day 6 males under 30 passed out within 15 minutes of receiving mRNA vaccine. I feel like truck has ridden over me. Massive heart and some lung inflammation. Was told by a doctor to get on anti-inflammatory drugs and if situation doesn't improve quickly to go to hospital.
COVID itself never touched me. Never felt it at all.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Yeah, I had the same thought for a moment, but in Russia it’s Indian delta variant and majority of people are unvaccinated. And it’s bad.
> 
> 
> Russia on Sunday reported 25,018 new coronavirus cases and 764 deaths as the country battles the surging Delta variant.
> Russia has confirmed 5,958,133 cases of coronavirus and 148,419 deaths, according to the national coronavirus information center. Russia’s total excess fatality count since the start of the coronavirus pandemic is around 483,000.


2 days ago I was watching News on Russian TV , in Moscow and several other regions, new cases fell 30% and in Moscow , just a couple of restrictions they had were lifted. Btw, Moscow has the highest vaccination rate in Russia.
In total lockdown in Russia was ONLY 6 weeks (last spring).


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## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> Yes, they have some effect.
> The new data does move the risk to benefit equation though.
> Since benefit is no longer 93% effectiveness but closer to 56-60% effectiveness, then a risk that is significant for males under 30 suddenly starts looking pretty bad.
> I was at the vaccination clinic yesterday for 2nd dose. During that day 6 males under 30 passed out within 15 minutes of receiving mRNA vaccine. I feel like truck has ridden over me. Massive heart and some lung inflammation. Was told by a doctor to get on anti-inflammatory drugs and if situation doesn't improve quickly to go to hospital.
> COVID itself never touched me. Never felt it at all.


It’s very individual, I know many people from 12 to 75 who got vaccines and nobody had so severe side effect... the worst case was moderate fever for couple of days and tiredness


----------



## damian13ster

gibor365 said:


> It’s very individual, I know many people from 12 to 75 who got vaccines and nobody had so severe side effect... the worst case was moderate fever for couple of days and tiredness


Yeah. Risk from vaccines seems to be extremely small for anyone 39+ and for women. 
Male under 30 are screwed though.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> Israel data shows the vaccine is 64% effective against delta, where 100% means no vaccinated people get it, and 0% means the same number of vaccinated vs unvaccinated people get it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.il
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In UK, they find that if you have 2 doses, your chances of being hospitalized by the virus is reduced by 90%.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK Covid infections rise as Delta variant dominates
> 
> 
> There is some regional variation in infection rates and some good news on vaccine efficacy.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact check: Do COVID vaccines protect against the delta variant? | DW | 15.07.2021
> 
> 
> In the United Kingdom, people have died of the delta variant despite being vaccinated. Are existing COVID-19 vaccines still effective? A look at the facts shows: Yes, complete vaccinations still protect against delta.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dw.com


BBC out dated article, and cherry picked data (MSM has been cleverly doing this). They are also riddled with conflicts of interest like most media and corporate interests showing only one side of the debate, and censoring the rest.

Is this the same BBC that tried to hide the record breaking protests in London recently, and when they finally couldn't deny it anymore they tried to say it was a disorganized protest without clear reasons for protesting? (They were protesting government lies, lockdowns, passports etc, it was pretty clear).

I'll take the (uncensored) data please, over bias, agenda driven opinions/ articles.

But since articles appear to engage people more, heres a more balanced one.









Breakthrough Infection Data In Israel: Troubling Trend or Mere Anomaly?


Data out of Israel reveals some troubling trends involving this heavily vaccinated population. TrialSite delved into a recent data trove made available by



trialsitenews.com





Hospitals in UK are no longer giving out data on breakthroughs at a very coincidental (strategic) time, and people just shrug it off like its no cause for concern. How many more coincidences will it take? How many more people labelled "conspiracy theorists" have to be proven correct? How many more laws do our authorities and governments have to break? What does it take to make people ask obvious questions of our authorities and hold them to account?


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> Yeah. Risk from vaccines seems to be extremely small for anyone 39+ and for women.
> Male under 30 are screwed though.


Again , it’s all individual, our son 25, get absolutely no side effects after both Pfizer doses, but many of his friends had mild to medium side effects


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## damian13ster

gibor365 said:


> Again , it’s all individual, our son 25, get absolutely no side effects after both Pfizer doses, but many of his friends had mild to medium side effects


You are moving onto anecdotes again.
Yes 100% of males under 30 will not end up in a hospital.
Higher percentage of males under 30 will end up in a hospital because of vaccine than because of COVID.


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## gibor365

Your post 3258 is more anecdotes 🤣


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## damian13ster

gibor365 said:


> Your post 3258 is more anecdotes 🤣


It had data for effectiveness against Delta variant.
That's the important part of the post


----------



## 5Lgreenback

damian13ster said:


> Yeah. Risk from vaccines seems to be extremely small for anyone 39+ and for women.
> Male under 30 are screwed though.


Robert Malone posted an adolescent risk benefit ratio, using CDC data and VAERS, so if anything these numbers are extremely conservative. Considering the vaccine data vs delta variant is looking worse everyday, its not only a no brainer to not give young people these shots, its unethical. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1416426039039909894
I would argue the same for healthy adults above 30 and under 60 as well. In fact, I would argue for a full pause of the program until we are able to see what unfolds with delta in Europe. Unfortunately they are showing that data may become compromised now.









What Risk-Benefit Analysis?!


The Chloroquine Wars Part XLIII




roundingtheearth.substack.com


----------



## 5Lgreenback

damian13ster said:


> Yes, they have some effect.
> The new data does move the risk to benefit equation though.
> Since benefit is no longer 93% effectiveness but closer to 56-60% effectiveness, then a risk that is significant for males under 30 suddenly starts looking pretty bad.
> I was at the vaccination clinic yesterday for 2nd dose. During that day 6 males under 30 passed out within 15 minutes of receiving mRNA vaccine. I feel like truck has ridden over me. Massive heart and some lung inflammation. Was told by a doctor to get on anti-inflammatory drugs and if situation doesn't improve quickly to go to hospital.
> COVID itself never touched me. Never felt it at all.


Eek, you previously had covid? Why the vaccine then? Restricted freedoms incentives?


----------



## Spudd

Double Check: Who Is Dr. Robert Malone?


A scientist claiming to have invented mRNA technology has gained popularity among the anti-vax movement. Who is he, and what's the truth about his claims?




www.logically.ai


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> Even without statistics, the doctors working in the hospitals are saying that almost all the patients in the ICU are not vaccinated.
> 
> Forget the number crunchers and listen to what the doctors putting in ventilator tubes are saying.
> 
> If people are seriously ill from COVID and in the hospitals......it is the doctors and nurses who are the most reliable source of information.
> 
> They all say.....get vaccinated or face bad consequences, so believe them or some unaccountable person on the internet.


At the moment, around 60% of the patients in serious conditions have been vaccinated. Moreover, according to Hebrew University researchers who advise the government, around 90% of newly infected people over the age of 50 are fully vaccinated.

The “percent of cases that turn critically ill is now 1.6%, compared to 4% at a similar stage in the third wave when there were no vaccines,” Prof. Eran Segal, a computational biologist at the Weizmann Institute of Science who advises the coronavirus cabinet, tweeted on Friday.


----------



## sags

Strange that is the case in Israel and the doctors aren't finding the same results in Canada and the US.

Maybe there was something going on with the original Pfizer vaccine, since Israel got the first batches and seem to have the problem.

I have heard many times the doctors here say there are virtually no vaccinated people in the ER's or ICUs.

An RN we talked to said they are seeing a lot of long haulers with serious issues from having the COVID before there were vaccinations.

So that knocks down the theory that un-vaccinated people are as protected as vaccinated people.

I think if there were serious problems for the vaccinated we would be hearing all about it. 

That information couldn't be kept secret for long.....even if someone wanted to.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> Strange that is the case in Israel and the doctors aren't finding the same results in Canada and the US.
> 
> Maybe there was something going on with the original Pfizer vaccine, since Israel got the first batches and seem to have the problem.


 Wait for it. Israeli got vaccinated in January February and the USA ,Canada few months later.


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## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> At the moment, around 60% of the patients in serious conditions have been vaccinated. Moreover, according to Hebrew University researchers who advise the government, around 90% of newly infected people over the age of 50 are fully vaccinated.
> 
> The “percent of cases that turn critically ill is now 1.6%, compared to 4% at a similar stage in the third wave when there were no vaccines,” Prof. Eran Segal, a computational biologist at the Weizmann Institute of Science who advises the coronavirus cabinet, tweeted on Friday.


It would be interesting to see how many people getting Covid from those who had Covid in the past and had Covid + had vaccines


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## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Wait for it. Israeli got vaccinated in January February and the USA ,Canada few months later.


In US last month daily cases increased more than 300% (from below 11K to 34K).


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## sags

Ukrainiandude said:


> Wait for it. Israeli got vaccinated in January February and the USA ,Canada few months later.


Hmm......so maybe an issue with the durance of the vaccines ?


----------



## Spudd

sags said:


> Strange that is the case in Israel and the doctors aren't finding the same results in Canada and the US.
> 
> Maybe there was something going on with the original Pfizer vaccine, since Israel got the first batches and seem to have the problem.


It's working to prevent deaths quite well.

In Israel, average daily cases are twice what they were in mid-April when the first cases of Delta were identified in the country. At that time, there were an average of five deaths each day in Israel. But despite the rise of the Delta variant -- which now accounts for more than 90% of new cases in the country -- average daily deaths have stayed consistently below that. In fact, Israel has had an average of less than two Covid-19 deaths per day since the last week of May, according to data from Johns Hopkins University.








Delta variant's trajectory in UK and Israel provides hope for US -- if we can keep vaccinating


All eyes are on the Delta variant that is now dominant in the United States as new Covid-19 cases rise week-to-week and the variant -- first identified in India and also known as B.1.617.2 -- accounts for a growing share.




www.cnn.com


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## sags

So it cut the death rate in half ? If the problem is the vaccines lose effectiveness and we need continual shots........I will just isolate and that be that.


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## gibor365

Spudd said:


> It's working to prevent deaths quite well.
> 
> In Israel, average daily cases are twice what they were in mid-April when the first cases of Delta were identified in the country. At that time, there were an average of five deaths each day in Israel. But despite the rise of the Delta variant -- which now accounts for more than 90% of new cases in the country -- average daily deaths have stayed consistently below that. In fact, Israel has had an average of less than two Covid-19 deaths per day since the last week of May, according to data from Johns Hopkins University.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta variant's trajectory in UK and Israel provides hope for US -- if we can keep vaccinating
> 
> 
> All eyes are on the Delta variant that is now dominant in the United States as new Covid-19 cases rise week-to-week and the variant -- first identified in India and also known as B.1.617.2 -- accounts for a growing share.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Israel had same daily cases like now on Mar 25, then daily deaths were - 14, now - 2.

Highly vaccinated UK (population 68M) has now about 42K daily new cases and 41 deaths.
Low vaccinated Russia (population 146M) has now about 25K daily new cases and 772 deaths.

Looks like vaccines (including AZ) are working


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> Double Check: Who Is Dr. Robert Malone?
> 
> 
> A scientist claiming to have invented mRNA technology has gained popularity among the anti-vax movement. Who is he, and what's the truth about his claims?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.logically.ai



I won't bother writing a big essay here, but the fact checkers have proven to be at best, heavily bias and indeed themselves in need of being fact checked.

Malone played a key role in the creation of mrna technology, others did too. It wasn't until he started speaking out that the authoritarian censorship movement started trying to confuse and tarnish his reputation and Wikipedia suddenly changed his biography. Just another coincidence Im sure? This is a typical smear campaign, ruin the lives/ careers of whistleblowers or those how dare question the narrative. Its textbook procedure.









Merck Created Hit List to "Destroy," "Neutralize" or "Discredit" Dissenting Doctors


Merck made a "hit list" of doctors who criticized Vioxx, according to testimony in a Vioxx class action case in Australia. The list, emailed between Merck employees, contained doctors' names with the labels "neutralise," "neutralised" or "discredit" next to them.




www.cbsnews.com





Edit- I will add, that posting a smear link against him doesn't disprove the risk/benift ratio he shared. For one, its not his piece. And secondly, its done using publicly available CDC and VAERS data, he asked to have someone please prove it wrong, which you are welcome to do.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

gibor365 said:


> It would be interesting to see how many people getting Covid from those who had Covid in the past and had Covid + had vaccines


I will place a wager, that those who've had covid but not vax will be at significantly lower risk than those who had covid plus vax. 

The trend lines in UK is suggestive of this. Although previous covid+ vax is not likely getting tracked very well.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

sags said:


> So it cut the death rate in half ? If the problem is the vaccines lose effectiveness and we need continual shots........I will just isolate and that be that.


Well.....the shots have already been ordered. 

Just another thing the crazy "conspiracy" folks have been warning about.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Vaccine passports are the final abomination of the mass hysteria that began last March. 

The United States has already said “No” via its actions. Uk is resisting. France’s “No” is more dramatic.









Over 100,000 protest in France against ‘compulsory’ Covid-19 vaccination


Over 100,000 people protested across France on Saturday against the government’s latest measures to push people to get vaccinated and curb rising infections by the delta variant of the coronavirus.




www.rfi.fr





But here in Canada.....? 

Our kindness and trust has been used against us. Many folks here still believe that somehow, this about public health.


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## james4beach

Some variants break through vaccination. When you add up all the unvaccinated people in Canada, plus some vaccinated people who will inevitably get sick from new variants, it's still possible that the hospital system could get overloaded.

If the hospitals get overloaded, then we will once again require mask usage in public areas and maybe even shut things down. Certainly we'll have to shut down the high risk places like restaurants, bars, party venues.

The UK has a very high vaccination rate, like us, and yet is trending towards hospitals getting overwhelmed with patient admissions. I'm posting all this so that people can go into fall and winter with REASONABLE expectations.

It's very possible that mandatory masks will be back, and that high risk public places and businesses will have to be shut down.


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## gibor365

James, masks are mandatory in Ontario everywhere indoors


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## 5Lgreenback

james4beach said:


> Some variants break through vaccination. When you add up all the unvaccinated people in Canada, plus some vaccinated people who will inevitably get sick from new variants, it's still possible that the hospital system could get overloaded.
> 
> If the hospitals get overloaded, then we will once again require mask usage in public areas and maybe even shut things down. Certainly we'll have to shut down the high risk places like restaurants, bars, party venues.
> 
> The UK has a very high vaccination rate, like us, and yet is trending towards hospitals getting overwhelmed with patient admissions. I'm posting all this so that people can go into fall and winter with REASONABLE expectations.
> 
> It's very possible that mandatory masks will be back, and that high risk public places and businesses will have to be shut down.


Mandatory vaccinations and passports. Thats the plan. Its beyond obvious at the point. 

The lies will continue until the gullible accept or even ask for this totalitarian solution.

Does anyone honestly see this system ending with a happily ever after? Canadians better get ready to fight for our freedoms and rights, very soon.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Very important read. As I stated before and many experts have been warning, vaccines likely only cause harm to people who've already had SarsCov2. Any halfwit expert in this field knew this was the case! Including the government "experts". So why are they lying to us about this with BS articles and junk science, intentionally trying to confuse this fact and encourage these survivors to compromise their health? They knew/know, and they misinformed and lied. The article also shows the MAJORITY of people tested have natural immunity already.

What is their obsession with injecting every civilian on this planet, using heavy (illegal) coercion and totalitarian passport systems?

The silence from those who still believe in our leaders and agencies is deafening.









Four New Discoveries About Safety and Efficacy of COVID Vaccines | Principia Scientific Intl.


Doctors for Covid Ethics has sent a letter to tens of thousands of doctors in Europe, summarising four recent scientific findings critical to the COVID-19 vaccination program. The letter explains each finding as it relates to the biology of COVID-19 vaccines, including interactions with the...




principia-scientific.com


----------



## 5Lgreenback

^To add my personal speculation to the above. The fact that almost everyone tested has naturally immunity to SARS COV2 already, and the vaccines on top of that only serve to hinder health and immnunity... This could explain the rising rates of vaccinated people doing worse in european countries than unvaccinated.

UK Boris Johnson previously announced they would NEVER be implementing a vaccination pass system.

UK Boris just JUST announced the start of whats going to be an ever growing, oppressive vax pass system to force compliance with injections. Night Clubs and large venues will require proof of double injections, soon to be followed by grocery stores and walks on the beach I'm sure. Negative tests will no longer be valid. Comply with injections or else.

So the injections aren't stopping the transmission at all, they no longer seem to be preventing severe symptoms or death (delta variant). And UK is now intentionally hiding this data from the public. *Can someone please explain their logic to me and how this could have anything to do with public health at this point?*

Canada has so called "boosters" lined up until 2025 so far. The foreshadowing here couldn't be any more obvious. Canadians need to start waking up and fighting for our health, freedoms and rights.


----------



## Spudd

5Lgreenback said:


> Very important read. As I stated before and many experts have been warning, vaccines likely only cause harm to people who've already had SarsCov2. Any halfwit expert in this field knew this was the case! Including the government "experts". So why are they lying to us about this with BS articles and junk science, intentionally trying to confuse this fact and encourage these survivors to compromise their health? They knew/know, and they misinformed and lied. The article also shows the MAJORITY of people tested have natural immunity already.
> 
> What is their obsession with injecting every civilian on this planet, using heavy (illegal) coercion and totalitarian passport systems?
> 
> The silence from those who still believe in our leaders and agencies is deafening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Four New Discoveries About Safety and Efficacy of COVID Vaccines | Principia Scientific Intl.
> 
> 
> Doctors for Covid Ethics has sent a letter to tens of thousands of doctors in Europe, summarising four recent scientific findings critical to the COVID-19 vaccination program. The letter explains each finding as it relates to the biology of COVID-19 vaccines, including interactions with the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> principia-scientific.com


Principia Scientific is a global warming denialist blog. Why should we listen to them about vaccine safety? You complain about junk science in your post and then you bring this utterly junk source as "proof". 

New England Journal of Medicine says that it is proven that the vaccine is safe in people who recovered from covid. 


NEJM said:


> Some of the people who participated in the clinical trials had evidence of prior SARS-CoV-2 infection (based on a positive antibody test), and the vaccines were safe and efficacious in this group.







__





Loading…






www.nejm.org








__





How can we judge health and science information?


Probably the most essential factor in accurately and objectively judging health and science information is to understand how science is done.




mediasmarts.ca


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> Principia Scientific is a global warming denialist blog. Why should we listen to them about vaccine safety? You complain about junk science in your post and then you bring this utterly junk source as "proof".
> 
> New England Journal of Medicine says that it is proven that the vaccine is safe in people who recovered from covid.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> www.nejm.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can we judge health and science information?
> 
> 
> Probably the most essential factor in accurately and objectively judging health and science information is to understand how science is done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mediasmarts.ca



LOL Spudd, that article has been posted on numerous sites. Would it be better if I linked it directly to the doctors4 covid eithics site? Hundreds of doctors from around the globe risking their reputations and jobs, I'm sure their just conspiracy theorist folks tho.

Is this better?









Letter to Physicians: Four New Scientific Discoveries Regarding the Safety and Efficacy of COVID-19 Vaccines


Doctors for Covid ethics has sent a letter to tens of thousands of doctors in Europe, warning that new evidence forces physicians to re-evaluate the merits of COVID-19 vaccination.




doctors4covidethics.org


----------



## 5Lgreenback

The Lancet, NEJM and virtually all major publications have been caught publishing junk science during this pandemic where the conclusions that make all the headlines, have nothing to do with their underlying studies. < Very Concerning!

The news outlets then grasp onto these often bogus publications and spread misinformation and fear.


----------



## zinfit

5Lgreenback said:


> The Lancet, NEJM and virtually all major publications have been caught publishing junk science during this pandemic where the conclusions that make all the headlines, have nothing to do with their underlying studies. < Very Concerning!
> 
> The news outlets then grasp onto these often bogus publications and spread misinformation and fear.


It seems all sources of data and science is junk except for the fringe sources you keep referring to. I have looked at your pistons and they have become a broken record while you consistently ignore the real time experience and positive data on the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines. People who approach things in a rational and logical manner will quickly park your positions in the trash container.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> global warming denialist


Who knows they might be right.
About 90 million years ago, West *Antarctica* was home to a thriving temperate rainforest, according to fossil roots, pollen and spores recently discovered there, a new study finds. ... This scorching climate allowed a rainforest — similar to those seen in New Zealand today — to take root in Antarctica, the researchers said.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

zinfit said:


> It seems all sources of data and science is junk except for the fringe sources you keep referring to. I have looked at your pistons and they have become a broken record while you consistently ignore the real time experience and positive data on the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines. People who approach things in a rational and logical manner will quickly park your positions in the trash container.


Seems to be more of a smear against me rather than a rebuttal of any kind. But fair enough.

If you aren't willing to see the corruption, and the obvious incentives of powerful companies and people to want to corrupt the field of science and medicine for their gain, thats your choice.

I think most experts would agree that 95% of papers and science published in recent years is junk. Sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. Coincidentally during covid, the junk science seems to be in hyperdrive.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Let me just ask a simple question for those who still have faith in our leaders and the direction this is heading.

How do you see this all ending?


----------



## Eder

I think for fully vaccinated people this pandemic is already ended.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Eder said:


> I think for fully vaccinated people this pandemic is already ended.





Eder said:


> I think for fully vaccinated people this pandemic is already ended.


For this brief window perhaps. 

What about all the fully vaccinated people in UK, Netherlands and Israel getting sick at equal to or higher rates than unvaccinated? (Government data sourced linked to previously). Is it over for them?


----------



## Eder

Pretty much...most of vaccinated people don't realize they're even sick. Its not about cases , it's about the outcome. If everyone was vaccinated we could get back to calling global warming bogus again.

Its a bit ironic that those who were convinced no one died of Covid before now think that lots of vaccinated people are dying of Covid.

Whatever...it will sort itself out in time, meanwhile, I have moved on back to normal life thanks to my Moderrna shot.


----------



## sags

Some countries where the vaccines don't seem to be working as well may have received early batches of the vaccine that weren't the best quality.

The vaccines in Canada appear to be working 100% at keeping people out of the hospital.

Trudeau waited for the good vaccine to be produced and then he scooped it up. Man.......that guy is one smart cookie.


----------



## sags

One of the earliest recipients of the Pfizer vaccine says he feels great.


----------



## gibor365

5Lgreenback said:


> For this brief window perhaps.
> 
> What about all the fully vaccinated people in UK, Netherlands and Israel getting sick at equal to or higher rates than unvaccinated? (Government data sourced linked to previously). Is it over for them?


Not equal or higher rates! There was a quote that in Israel 90% of new Covid cases among 60+ were fully vaccinated, but this is because 90% of 60+ WERE already vaccinated . There are almost nonvaccinated people in 60+ age !

And I posted above real stats showing that deaths among vaccinated several times (7 times in Israel) lower than un-vaccinated or partially vaccinated .
Also, country with high vaccination % has much lower ' deaths/new cases' ratio


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Johns hopkins data and case rate increases vs vax rates. Certainly cause for concern. I can't figure out how to post the direct picture, so I'll link to this twitter page that posted it. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417128174169776135 Data as of yesterday

Did you look at the other data I linked to 2 days ago? Government and Johns Hopkins data is showing clear dramatic spikes in vaccinated countries in EU, low vax countries are cruising along with low rates. 

Theres a reason UK hospitals to stopped releasing data on breakthrough cases. Because the data, and a recent study (which I will try to find later) show that deaths and hospitalizations are even for vax or unvax as of last week. But the trend line was showing high probability of outcomes to be worse for fully vax people by the end of the week. For both cases and deaths.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Look. As the number of people vaccinated increases the number of people vaxxed and infected will also increase. That is just the law of numbers. It is pretty much a waste of time looking at infections these days. They tell you nothing useful. Hospitalizations and deaths are another story. When you look closer at that you do see quite a few fully vaccinated people in that group. Again, if you look even closer you will find that in almost all those cases those individuals had a co-morbidity issue, with hypertension and immune disorders and advanced age/frailty being the majority of those cases (94%). You also have to understand that the majority of people who in those vulnerable group are most likely going to also be in the vaccinated group (as opposed to the unvaccinated group). So we are going to have to deal with that group of people having some unfortunate break through experiences with covid, vaccinated or not.

So with that said, for anyone that does not have a serious co-morbidity issue, if they get vaccinated with 2 doses of vaccine, the overwhelming evidence is saying that they can pretty much do whatever they want. That has been proven so many times by now that you would have to be a complete idiot not to see it.

As Eder said, for the fully vaccinated the pandemic is over.


----------



## zinfit

OptsyEagle said:


> Look. As the number of people vaccinated increases the number of people vaxxed and infected will also increase. That is just the law of numbers. It is pretty much a waste of time looking at infections these days. They tell you nothing useful. Hospitalizations and deaths are another story. When you look closer at that you do see quite a few fully vaccinated people in that group. Again, if you look even closer you will find that in almost all those cases those individuals had a co-morbidity issue, with hypertension and immune disorders and advanced age/frailty being the majority of those cases (94%). You also have to understand that the majority of people who in those vulnerable group are most likely going to also be in the vaccinated group (as opposed to the unvaccinated group). So we are going to have to deal with that group of people having some unfortunate break through experiences with covid, vaccinated or not.
> 
> So with that said, for anyone that does not have a serious co-morbidity issue, if they get vaccinated with 2 doses of vaccine, the overwhelming evidence is saying that they can pretty much do whatever they want. That has been proven so many times by now that you would have to be a complete idiot not to see it.
> 
> As Eder said, for the fully vaccinated the pandemic is over.


The head of the CDC recently said 97% of all US covid hospitalizations are the unvaccinated. That is pretty powerful evidence. In respect to the UK and EU much of their vaccinations was with Astrezenca. I am pretty sure that it provides a much lower level of protection compared to the Mrna vaccines. Canada and the US rely on the Mrna vaccines. In fact the FDA never approved the Astrezenca vaccine. Canada has unofficially walked away from it.


----------



## gibor365

Still, it is possible for breakthrough infections to lead to severe illness, hospitalization and even death, particularly in more vulnerable individuals.

As of July 12, the CDC has reported nearly 5,500 cases in which a fully vaccinated person with Covid-19 was hospitalized or died. Seventy-five percent of those patients were over age 65.








A tiny fraction of vaccinated people get sick and die from Covid. Who's at risk?


Fully vaccinated people who become seriously ill following breakthrough infections tend be older or have serious medical conditions.




www.nbcnews.com


----------



## james4beach

It's a big mistake to think that the "pandemic is over" for vaccinated people.

This is a dynamic situation. The virus continues to mutate and while the MRNA vaccines may currently be highly effective, that may or may not continue to be the case. We also have far more transmission opportunities between people now. Previously, everyone was being cautious. Now they are not.

This situation requires caution. Continue to live your life, but avoid unnecessary contact with strangers, avoid crowded high risk environments. Wear a mask if you must be in close contact with large numbers of people. It's not rocket science.


----------



## gibor365

« Previously, everyone was being cautious. Now they are not.» -who was cautious- stays cautious and on the opposite


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> It's a big mistake to think that the "pandemic is over" for vaccinated people.
> 
> This is a dynamic situation. The virus continues to mutate and while the MRNA vaccines may currently be highly effective, that may or may not continue to be the case. We also have far more transmission opportunities between people now. Previously, everyone was being cautious. Now they are not.
> 
> This situation requires caution. Continue to live your life, but avoid unnecessary contact with strangers, avoid crowded high risk environments. Wear a mask if you must be in close contact with large numbers of people. It's not rocket science.


I suppose nothing is ever really over. The problem is not seeing the protection that exists because of the fear of the unknown. I will keep attuned to any changes but when news is posted like vaccinated people going to the hospital or dying, I tend to need to investigate it a little closer. That is because there is no doubt the vaccine has seriously reduced the infection rate of this pandemic. Re-openings lately has attempted to counter it but the vaccine is still doing a great job and therefore I need to understand better why some people are not as protected from these vaccines. As I said in my post, upon further investigation, it appears that most breakthrough infections are little more then a vaccinated person coming in contact with covid and getting tested before their immune system quickly eliminates it. In other words, the vaccine working just as it should. The others, the hospitalizations and deaths, are almost entirely attributed to co-morbidity and the only reason there is more of these then we would like is because more people are vaccinated these days and almost all of the vulnerable are now in the vaccinated group but they are not fully protected and may never be.

So with that said, not having co-morbidity issues, as most people do not, I am certainly not going to continue to fear every human being I come in contact with anymore. That would be illogical, based solely on the fear of the unknown. I am also not going to change my lifestyle because something MIGHT mutate in the future or something we don't know MIGHT happen sometime down the road. There will be plenty of time to react to that when it happens. The probability that I am the 1st case of this new development is astronomically low. So, for me the pandemic is over.

For the unvaccinated and the ones with co-morbidities, they should take precaution. It would be nice is the unvaccinated did the people with health issues a real solid by getting vaccinated. That would do wonders to protect all of them, but that would require an unselfish act and I doubt people are going to start doing those anytime soon. So, what can I personally do but move on. If I come up with a better idea for them, I will post it. Good luck to everyone.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> .. That would be illogical, based solely on the fear of the unknown ...


 ... I gather that would makes someone a real human instead of a humanoid.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Fear of the unknown is a natural human characteristic. So is a rash on your crotch. Both are something you might want to make an attempt to control if you prefer happiness over despair.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Haven't all all the live humans been doing that for the past x months of the pandemic and more? If so, what's all the commotions about people going batty during this time - you know "bad mental health"?


----------



## damian13ster

OptsyEagle said:


> I suppose nothing is ever really over. The problem is not seeing the protection that exists because of the fear of the unknown. I will keep attuned to any changes but when news is posted like vaccinated people going to the hospital or dying, I tend to need to investigate it a little closer. That is because there is no doubt the vaccine has seriously reduced the infection rate of this pandemic. Re-openings lately has attempted to counter it but the vaccine is still doing a great job and therefore I need to understand better why some people are not as protected from these vaccines. As I said in my post, upon further investigation, it appears that most breakthrough infections are little more then a vaccinated person coming in contact with covid and getting tested before their immune system quickly eliminates it. In other words, the vaccine working just as it should. The others, the hospitalizations and deaths, are almost entirely attributed to co-morbidity and the only reason there is more of these then we would like is because more people are vaccinated these days and almost all of the vulnerable are now in the vaccinated group but they are not fully protected and may never be.
> 
> So with that said, not having co-morbidity issues, as most people do not, I am certainly not going to continue to fear every human being I come in contact with anymore. That would be illogical, based solely on the fear of the unknown. I am also not going to change my lifestyle because something MIGHT mutate in the future or something we don't know MIGHT happen sometime down the road. There will be plenty of time to react to that when it happens. The probability that I am the 1st case of this new development is astronomically low. So, for me the pandemic is over.
> 
> For the unvaccinated and the ones with co-morbidities, they should take precaution. It would be nice is the unvaccinated did the people with health issues a real solid by getting vaccinated. That would do wonders to protect all of them, but that would require an unselfish act and I doubt people are going to start doing those anytime soon. So, what can I personally do but move on. If I come up with a better idea for them, I will post it. Good luck to everyone.


If you have no co-morbidities it was illogical to fear every human since the very first day. Chances of you dying with no comorbidities were lower than during commute to work


----------



## sags

How many times already has it been declared the pandemic was over ? They were all wrong.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Let's be clear. The pandemic is not over for the world. I was referring to the vaccinated individual. Covid will be with us for many years. That said, for those people with no serious health issues or immune disorders there is very little chance of serious illness from Covid-19, anymore. There has been more then enough data showing this if you just open your mind and look deeper then the infection headlines...or this board.

The vaccines are working for the vast majority of people that have obtained two doses.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Listen people. There has only ever been one solution to this pandemic. Vaccination. That is it. Since, at the beginning, vaccination was more of a hope then a reality, we had ONLY two ways to approach the future. Either we developed new vaccines and then embraced the virus or we did not get vaccinated and we embraced the virus. Those were the options for all of us since this virus is here and it was not going away on its own. We are not going away either. Earth is our only inhabitable planet. Obviously vaccination is the safest approach. Since we now have some absolutely wonderful vaccines the only risk that most of us have left is from our own imaginations.

From the beginning I knew that it was inevitable that I will come in contact with covid-19. The life one would have avoiding that would undoubtedly be worse. So, my hope was to do it in a vaccinated form but if that had been proven impossible, I would have approached the matter in another and more risky way. But living in fear was not an option.

When the vaccines were rolled out I said that as soon as everyone is able to get their vaccination the economy should be opened up. There is no benefit to waiting. If people decide to not vaccinate the quicker the virus inoculates them itself, the quicker we get through this. Maintaining precautions does nothing but delay that inevitable event. I think everyone in Canada has had a chance to vaccinate by now so that time to open up the country is now.

Readers here should know that I have always been very cautious towards this virus, but what I am saying to you now is all coming from the overwhelming evidence on the vaccine effectiveness, against all known variants, and as always putting together the best logical approach that evidence offers. If you have no serious health issues and have been vaccinated with 2 doses of vaccine there is very little risk to you now from Covid-19. If something changes in the future you will have plenty of time to react to that while you are living your normal life.


----------



## Beaver101

The pandemic is not over. Neither will the upcoming flu season(s). Each one of us will make our own choice and determine what's best (for ourselves).


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> How many times already has it been declared the pandemic was over ? They were all wrong.


By competent people, zero times.

Is it sufficiently under control to return to normal, in some places yes, in some places no, in most places "maybe".


----------



## OptsyEagle

Beaver101 said:


> The pandemic is not over. Neither will the upcoming flu season(s). Each one of us will make our own choice and determine what's best (for ourselves).


No doubt.

My objective is just to let everyone know that what you are seeing now is to be expected and not feared. Rising infections when we open up is to be expected. It has to happen. It should not be surprising or feared by the vaccinated.

Do I wish we could have escaped this without another wave and more dead people, mostly unvaccinated. Absolutely, but you all know as well as I that it cannot be avoided. It is also unfortuneate that the vaccine is not effective for 100% of the population but masks and social distancing should be enough to protect them until we figure another solution for them. It would be nice to have a higher vaccination rate, to protect them more, but the rate we have now actually has surpassed my expectation so we are a little ahead there.

As for the unvaccinated. I wish them no harm. I have friends in that group that are still going to be my friends. Opening up now and infecting them sooner will be much better for them then doing it in the fall when everyone goes indoors and shuts the windows creating higher dose infections. The next wave, in the fall should be fairly nasty but with our vaccination rates I am hoping we don't overwhelm our healthcare system and it should be the last nasty wave, IMO.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Good luck to all.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

The CDC director is making extraordinary claims that in America the delta is 97% infecting only unvaccinated. All the media headlines grabbed onto this statement and launched their fear mongering campaign. The folks who trust our media are also spewing this as a fact.

Extraordinary claims like this, require extraordinary evidence. There should be a clear breakdown of the data collection of this by each state on the CDC website. Myself and others have being trying to verify this number. It isn't there. closest we could get to hitting 97-99% required very vague information that was using different time frames for different categories vax vs unvax etc.

The website is full of caveats and disclaimers however showing that they are not even collecting data on breakthroughs, and that there are major flaws in the collection of their numbers as well as underreporting of breakthroughs:

_"As of May 1, 2021, CDC transitioned from monitoring all reported vaccine breakthrough cases to focus on identifying and investigating only hospitalized or fatal cases due to any cause. This shift will help maximize the quality of the data collected on cases of greatest clinical and public health importance.

Previous data on all vaccine breakthrough cases reported to CDC from January–April 2021 are available."_

*"The CDC itself has not estimated what percentage of hospitalizations and deaths are in fully vaccinated people, citing limitations in the data.
Among them: Only about 45 states report breakthrough infections, and some are more aggressive than others in looking for such cases. So the data probably understates such infections..."*

The only way to get this 97% number required blatant data manipulation. The data in Europe shows the virus is following vaccinated places. Israel has now stopped reporting breakthrough infections, as well as the UK. <Thats not suspicious at all.

I'd say theres a very good reason for record breaking numbers of protesters in France, UK and now Greece. Theres a very good reason 50% of Americans aren't listening to the lies anymore.


----------



## sags

Vaccines have been helpful, but they offer tenuous protection until the next variant pops up.

I think more emphasis should be put on treatments for the infection. We know that it leaves long hauler symptoms even for those who defeat it.

I question the assumption there are few people with co-morbidities. I would say that most people over the age of 50 have future health issues developing.

Many people have ailments such as heart disease, COPD, diabetes, cancer, obesity......and more.

Many people don't even know they have some of those ailments because they don't seek medical attention until major symptoms are revealed.

How do you know if you have heart disease until you experience angina, heart attack or stroke ? 

People don't get regular angiograms and stress tests to find out. The health system cannot "test" everyone all the time.

Just because you feel good doesn't mean those problems aren't already in place and developing.


----------



## sags

Maybe the government knows more than they can reveal without creating mass panic ?

We hear of a variant in India and a month later it is the dominant strain in Canada. 

We just heard about the Lambda variant and they know little about it. It is already here now.

People are fed up and want to return to normal, but the government isn't in control. The healthcare system isn't in control.

The virus has full control.......like it or not.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

I'm not sure if anyone here has researched the PCR testing we are doing. But this system if very flawed, and its not actually a diagnostic tool. Basically anything over 35 CT (Cycle Thresholds) should be thrown out (90% false positives).
The US has documented evidence that this number has been manipulated throughout the pandemic to create the appearance of rising or falling cases. Most countries have been doing 37+ CT's.......

The SAME day Biden took office, they lowered the CT's, this would create the numbers of infection to appear to drop, and also make it look like the vaccines were working.

Here is a quick video to explain PCR's and CT's, and also shows a typical example of fact checkers being bogus. And the CDC trying to hide their corruption.





__





Login • Instagram


Welcome back to Instagram. Sign in to check out what your friends, family & interests have been capturing & sharing around the world.




www.instagram.com





The guy in the video is a retired medical reporter. Don't trust him? Good, please research this yourself. 

Edit- Its an instagram video so it may require login? Not sure.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

sags said:


> Maybe the government knows more than they can reveal without creating mass panic ?
> 
> We hear of a variant in India and a month later it is the dominant strain in Canada.
> 
> We just heard about the Lambda variant and they know little about it. It is already here now.
> 
> People are fed up and want to return to normal, but the government isn't in control. The healthcare system isn't in control.
> 
> The virus has full control.......like it or not.


Sags, I envy your loyalty and trust.

The virus is a paper tiger. The fear campaign around it and those pushing this narrative it is the real thing to fear.

They can stick these immune system compromising jabs where the sun don't shine. Give us Ivermectin and proven effective early treatment protocols, and lets stop listening to the lies and get back to living.


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> I'm not sure if anyone here has researched the PCR testing we are doing. But this system if very flawed, and its not actually a diagnostic tool. Basically anything over 35 CT (Cycle Thresholds) should be thrown out (90% false positives).


No kidding. People already knew this. However, there's an obvious misunderstanding here of what is being said is a false positive. Adding more CTs just means you can amplify more minute amount actually in the person. That means at some point in time, that person would have had the covid virus in their system. It doesn't mean the person is going to be symptomatic or need to be hospitalized. It is a good indication on how far the virus has spread.

BTW, remember your studies for effectiveness of ivermectin? Most of them were using PCR tests to show their effectiveness.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Speaking of India: "India, which has a per capita C19 mortality <1/6th of the US, subdued the Indian C19 "delta" variant via natural immunity. Only 3.1% were fully vaccinated as of 5/29/21, but C19 infections had already decreased 50%. & by 6/23 deaths decreased by 50% from May 8-23."

My failing computer won't let me load the Johns Hopkins data graphs., but if you go to their site, its quite a dramatic graph of success with such low vax rates. BTW, certain states in India allowed the use of ivermectin, and the states that allowed it showed dramatic improvements in cases and deaths.

Who wants to place a wager that as India increases vaccination, their case numbers will be soon to follow?


----------



## 5Lgreenback

bgc_fan said:


> No kidding. People already knew this. However, there's an obvious misunderstanding here of what is being said is a false positive. Adding more CTs just means you can amplify more minute amount actually in the person. That means at some point in time, that person would have had the covid virus in their system. It doesn't mean the person is going to be symptomatic or need to be hospitalized. It is a good indication on how far the virus has spread.
> 
> BTW, remember your studies for effectiveness of ivermectin? Most of them were using PCR tests to show their effectiveness.


The point is the more cycles you do, the more likely your going to see something that isn't there (with enough amplification, you can find anything virtually anywhere with PCR tests).

Fauci himself said anything above 35 cycles should be thrown out as "dead nucleotides". So why are most western countries using 37-45 CT's? That is sky high cycles!

Why did the CDC decide to drop the CT's to 28 for vaccinated people? <<< The answer is obvious, it creates the illusion that the vaccine is more effective, or even effective at all.


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> The point is the more cycles you do, the more likely your going to see something that isn't there (with enough amplification, you can find anything virtually anywhere with PCR tests).
> 
> Fauci himself said anything above 35 cycles should be thrown out as "dead nucleotides". So why are most western countries using 37-45 CT's? That is sky high cycles!
> 
> Why did the CDC decide to drop the CT's to 28 for vaccinated people? <<< The answer is obvious, it creates the illusion that the vaccine is more effective, or even effective at all.


For your first point, no. PCR tests are specific for a specific DNA sequence. If the covid DNA is not in the sample, it will not be replicated. That's why I say, it's not a false positive. The person has covid DNA in the system, full stop. What Fauci is pointing out, is that at 35 cycles, the initial viral load sample is so low, that it could be residual virus from a previous infection, or a low enough load that you won't exhibit symptoms or develop full-blown covid. Again, I'll repeat myself, it means that the person *has covid DNA in the system*. You can't replicate what isn't there so that's why there's no such thing as a false positive.

As for your second point about dropping the CTs to 28 for breakthrough, that's his interpretation that it isn't the same number of CTs for unvaccinated. I'll also have to point out, if there is a breakthrough, that means the person is likely exhibiting covid symptoms, otherwise, why take the test, and they are coming up positive.

Edit: BTW, here's an easy to read McGill primer: The COVID-19 PCR Test Is Reliable Despite the Commotion About Ct Values


----------



## 5Lgreenback

bgc_fan said:


> For your first point, no. PCR tests are specific for a specific DNA sequence. If the covid DNA is not in the sample, it will not be replicated. That's why I say, it's not a false positive. The person has covid DNA in the system, full stop. What Fauci is pointing out, is that at 35 cycles, the initial viral load sample is so low, that it could be residual virus from a previous infection, or a low enough load that you won't exhibit symptoms or develop full-blown covid. Again, I'll repeat myself, it means that the person *has covid DNA in the system*. You can't replicate what isn't there so that's why there's no such thing as a false positive.
> 
> As for your second point about dropping the CTs to 28 for breakthrough, that's his interpretation that it isn't the same number of CTs for unvaccinated. I'll also have to point out, if there is a breakthrough, that means the person is likely exhibiting covid symptoms, otherwise, why take the test, and they are coming up positive.


Yes I know what your saying, and my point is, this virus is everywhere. With such high cycle thresholds, you could have had covid 8 months ago, and it could up as a false positive. IE residual dead virus is still around, but your not actually sick, or infectious!

Grab a soil sample from the ground and run a PCR test on it, with enough cycles you will find evidence of covid.

Thats not just his interpretation, thats common documented knowledge, the CDC has been caught out lying and trying to scrub their web page numerous times. 

Unvaccinated getting a test? Please continue cycles from 37+
Vaccinated get a PCR test? Please stop at 28

The evidence is there, even if the CDC website has since tried to hide it.

This denial of reality is not going to end well for us. 

Americans are getting it, they are speaking out, Canada not so much.

Ex NYT reporters crude, but to the point article sums it up.









It isn't over until they say it's over


So we need to make them




alexberenson.substack.com


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> Yes I know what your saying, and my point is, this virus is everywhere. With such high cycle thresholds, you could have had covid 8 months ago, and it could up as a false positive. IE residual dead virus is still around, but your not actually sick, or infectious!
> 
> Grab a soil sample from the ground and run a PCR test on it, with enough cycles you will find evidence of covid.


Doubt it, DNA and virus decays pretty quickly outside of an animal host. So you agree, then, the point of the PCR test is that the person has in one point been infected with covid, and can be used to gauge the spread of the virus.

Nope, that's his interpretation with little to back it up other than conjecture. Basically, he points out a new, updated protocol to deal with samples and is assuming that it isn't applied to non-vaccinated.


----------



## OptsyEagle

The PCR test was zooped up to ensure that it identified even the smallest amount of covid since, at that time, a false negative was much more detrimental to society then a false positive.

With the vaccination processed advanced to where it is, the problem with very sensitive PCR tests is when they capture a vaccination positive test. As I have said, many times now, and it has finally been reiterated by a few health agencies now, is that a vaccinated person having covid is not a failure of the vaccine. It is simply a vaccinated person coming in contact with covid, is all it represents. The vast majority of these cases will result in no harm to the vaccinated person, so to identify them as an infection gives more misleading information then useful information, at this time.

The health authorities/government are not trying to mislead, they are trying to enlighten. As I have said many times, now that over half our population are vaccinated, the only numbers that matter are unvaccinated infections and both unvaccinated and vaccinated hospitalizations and death.


----------



## gibor365

“ Premier Doug Ford’s government has said that the final step of its reopening plan, which will see the lifting of virtually all remaining public health restrictions, can’t begin until at least 80 per cent of those 12 and older have been partially vaccinated and 75 per cent have been fully vaccinated.
However, during a briefing on Tuesday, Ontario’s top doctor said that the province needs to get 90 per cent of eligible residents fully vaccinated to account for the risk of the Delta variant.”

Seriously?! 90% fully vaccinated?! Its’s impossible considering big number of people who doesn’t want to be vaccinated! I don’t think even 75/80 is achievable.


----------



## sags

How is it that travelers test negative before they board an aircraft and positive by the time they land ?

How is it that travelers on cruise ships all test negative and then there is an outbreak on board at sea......as recently happened in Europe ?


----------



## sags

So at least one doctor is willing to state the obvious. The Delta is a different virus and only a high vaccination rate with an imperfect vaccine will knock it down.

And then......there is the Lambda and future variants. The new normal may be restrictions until the virus peters out on it's own.........like it or not.


----------



## gibor365

Looks like Ontario is already starting to hit the wall.... Couple of weeks ago there were up to 250K vaccines administered daily, last several days around 130K,
So far 80% got at least one dose and 65% is fully vaccinated. This is only for adults 18+. % of total population is significantly less. Everyone who wanted vaccines, got at least 1st dose


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> For your first point, no. PCR tests are specific for a specific DNA sequence. If the covid DNA is not in the sample, it will not be replicated. That's why I say, it's not a false positive. The person has covid DNA in the system, full stop. What Fauci is pointing out, is that at 35 cycles, the initial viral load sample is so low, that it could be residual virus from a previous infection, or a low enough load that you won't exhibit symptoms or develop full-blown covid. Again, I'll repeat myself, it means that the person *has covid DNA in the system*. You can't replicate what isn't there so that's why there's no such thing as a false positive.


There is no such thing as "COVID DNA"
Coronaviruses don't have DNA.
PCR tests don't look for DNA, because Coronaviruses don't have DNA.


----------



## Spudd

Here's a fact check on the PCR test claim (hint: it's false).









PCR tests on vaccinated and unvaccinated people are evaluated using the same criteria; the CDC didn’t change criteria for detecting infection in vaccinated people, as alleged in OffGuardian article


Clinical trials in tens of thousands of people, as well as data from ongoing vaccination campaigns, demonstrated that COVID-19 vaccines are effective at preventing severe disease and death. COVID-19 is a reportable condition, meaning that by law, every positive test must be reported, regardless...




healthfeedback.org


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> There is no such thing as "COVID DNA"
> Coronaviruses don't have DNA.
> PCR tests don't look for DNA, because Coronaviruses don't have DNA.


Fair enough I misspoke as it should be covid RNA, but regardless, PCR tests amplify the DNA sequence of interest. So when using PCR, they have to convert the RNA into a DNA sequence using RNA reverse transcriptase. So yes, PCR tests look for DNA sequences.








How is the COVID-19 Virus Detected using Real Time RT-PCR?


What is real time RT–PCR? How does it work with the coronavirus? And what does it have to do with nuclear technology? Here’s a handy overview of the technique, how it works and a few refresher details on viruses and genetics.




www.iaea.org




If you want the wiki explanation of the PCR process. Polymerase chain reaction - Wikipedia


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> So at least one doctor is willing to state the obvious. The Delta is a different virus and only a high vaccination rate with an imperfect vaccine will knock it down.
> 
> And then......there is the Lambda and future variants. The new normal may be restrictions until the virus peters out on it's own.........like it or not.


and how does the virus peter out on its own if restrictions are maintained?

None of these worries matter. All we can do is ask people to protect themselves through vaccination. Ensure we have the vaccine and appointments available and that is it. Maintaining precaution and protecting them longer does nothing for their long term protection, but does do a lot of harm in many other ways to many, many more people.

We are at a stage now where the only way we are going to get more vaccine hesitant people to roll up their sleeves is if someone they know gets very sick and/or dies. I wish this were not true but we all know it is. The delta variant will be our best aid in that happening quicker then later. As I said before, do I wish this to be the way have to go. No. But I am logical, and it is the only logical solution. Open up the economy. Get the unvaccinated inoculated naturally and maybe we can move on. Maintaining precautions, at this stage, just delays what we need to do.


----------



## sags

The virus will peter out the same way all viruses peter out. It will run out of people to infect.


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> We are at a stage now where the only way we are going to get more vaccine hesitant people to roll up their sleeves is if someone they know gets very sick and/or dies. I wish this were not true but we all know it is. The delta variant will be our best aid in that happening quicker then later. As I said before, do I wish this to be the way have to go. No. But I am logical, and it is the only logical solution. Open up the economy. Get the unvaccinated inoculated naturally and maybe we can move on. Maintaining precautions, at this stage, just delays what we need to do.


Unfortunately, not even when they recover from covid and hospitalization, they will get the vaccine. Instead, they'll prefer to get covid again. Of course, there's indications that getting covid a second time is worse, but that's their decision.









COVID patient in Louisiana says he'd opt for hospitalization again over vaccine


The hospital's chief medical officer said if people don't get vaccinated, "we are going to accept death."




www.cbsnews.com


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> The virus will peter out the same way all viruses peter out. It will run out of people to infect.


Exactly. The only question is do we want that to happen in 10 years or 10 months? Maintaining precautions, at this stage only prolongs the inevitable.

Plus, we currently have an opportunity right now. Don't look at the current infection numbers, since they are fairly meaningless these days. Rest assured there is a lot more covid out there then the current numbers suggest. The current numbers are under reported for three reasons. The vaccinated infections are not getting sick enough to decide to go get tested. They also are spreading less dangerous infections to the unvaccinated, who also are not getting tested. Lastly, many organizations that use to require testing only require proof of vaccination now, so that is again, reducing the tests done and consequently reducing the number of infections we can know about. So the amount of covid in our society is much higher then being reported.

Here is the time limited opportunity. Right now, with the highly infectious Delta variant and the very large number of vaccinated people who carry much safer infections, an unvaccinated person has a much greater chance of getting a fairly harmless infection if they meet those two (vaccinated with virus) in an outdoor setting, like a patio or backyard get together. I mean, they are going to meet this virus. I am just trying to suggest the safest way for them to do it, if they persist to avoid vaccination.

If we wait and maintain restrictions longer things become much more dangerous for them. In and around November and April will always be the worst in Canada. That is because it is cold enough that we must go indoors to socialize, but warm enough that no one has their furnaces circulating the air, allowing the virus to concentrate. That is the most dangerous place for an unvaccinated person to have their 1st contact with this virus.

So we need to get on with this. We shouldn't wait. Not that I expect to get them all inoculated by November, but more there really is no more reason to delay this.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

bgc_fan said:


> Doubt it, DNA and virus decays pretty quickly outside of an animal host. So you agree, then, the point of the PCR test is that the person has in one point been infected with covid, and can be used to gauge the spread of the virus.
> 
> Nope, that's his interpretation with little to back it up other than conjecture. Basically, he points out a new, updated protocol to deal with samples and is assuming that it isn't applied to non-vaccinated.



You should probably inform the inventor of PCR tests that the fact checkers know more than him.





 (Video< will get deleted off youtube shortly, we can't have people calling out the lies of the MSM, or any real experts getting platformed.)

As for the denial of the PCR fraud. I encourage you to research some more. And don't bother with google, their goal is to manipulate you and direct you to sources that suit their interest. Or don't, whatever helps you sleep at night.

I've found Duckduckgo to be a game changer.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> Here's a fact check on the PCR test claim (hint: it's false).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PCR tests on vaccinated and unvaccinated people are evaluated using the same criteria; the CDC didn’t change criteria for detecting infection in vaccinated people, as alleged in OffGuardian article
> 
> 
> Clinical trials in tens of thousands of people, as well as data from ongoing vaccination campaigns, demonstrated that COVID-19 vaccines are effective at preventing severe disease and death. COVID-19 is a reportable condition, meaning that by law, every positive test must be reported, regardless...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> healthfeedback.org



I could tell you the "fact checkers" are pharma funded and/or pharma invested, and link to numerous cases of fact checkers being debunked. But would it make any difference?

I've looked into them a bunch, hoping they could "debunk" many things, they were proven to be absolute nonsense. They are propaganda machines of the same ilk and interests as the mainstream media.


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> You should probably inform the inventor of PCR tests that the fact checkers know more than him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Video< will get deleted off youtube shortly, we can't have people calling out the lies of the MSM, or any real experts getting platformed.)
> 
> As for the denial of the PCR fraud. I encourage you to research some more. And don't bother with google, their goal is to manipulate you and direct you to sources that suit their interest. Or don't, whatever helps you sleep at night.
> 
> I've found Duckduckgo to be a game changer.


Sigh, you didn't listen to the video? He basically reiterates what I said and you are only taking things out of context. If you have a molecule of it, it will appear after application of the PCR. It multiplies the presence of any covid genetic material in the sample. The key is that you set up the PCR to look for a specific sequence unique to covid to illluminate, and that you aren't marking other random bits of DNA that aren't of interest. As he said (3:10), and what I've been saying all this time, it doesn't say that someone is sick, it just means that they have covid in the system. The point is, if you don't have any exposure to covid, PCR test will NOT show a "positive".


----------



## zinfit

Vaccine deniers. I used to wonder how we could have Holocaust deniers. Now I know .


----------



## Ukrainiandude

July 20 (Reuters) - Two-thirds of India's population have antibodies against the coronavirus, according to data released on Tuesday from a survey of 29,000 people across the nation conducted in June and July.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> Unfortunately, not even when they recover from covid and hospitalization, they will get the vaccine. Instead, they'll prefer to get covid again. Of course, there's indications that getting covid a second time is worse, but that's their decision.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID patient in Louisiana says he'd opt for hospitalization again over vaccine
> 
> 
> The hospital's chief medical officer said if people don't get vaccinated, "we are going to accept death."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbsnews.com


I am sorry, but this is the single most ignorant post I have read today.

There is absolutely zero indication that getting covid for the second time is worse. It is blatantly false.
Fighting COVID the first time teaches your system how to handle it, and you develop antibodies.
Entire vaccination system works on this principle.
It 'imitates' the real virus so that your body can learn how to fight it, and you claim that by fighting the virus it will get worse at doing it the second time? Simply not true.

People who went through COVID are protected. Studies show that natural protection lasts at least 13 months.
European Union allows to substitute past positive COVID test for a vaccine passport because going through COVID means your immune system learned how to fight it and developed antibodies.


----------



## zinfit

ABC News has stories from doctors about unvaccinated patients in critical care pleading for the vaccine. The answer for these patients is " its too late".


----------



## OptsyEagle

damian13ster said:


> There is absolutely zero indication that getting covid for the second time is worse. It is blatantly false.
> Fighting COVID the first time teaches your system how to handle it, and you develop antibodies.
> Entire vaccination system works on this principle.
> It 'imitates' the real virus so that your body can learn how to fight it, and you claim that by fighting the virus it will get worse at doing it the second time? Simply not true.
> 
> People who went through COVID are protected. Studies show that natural protection lasts at least 13 months.
> European Union allows to substitute past positive COVID test for a vaccine passport because going through COVID means your immune system learned how to fight it and developed antibodies.


As I have stated many times but it has been a lonely voice, is that "dose of infection" plays the primary role in ones outcome from most viruses, especially Covid-19. Since our health officials did not find it necessary to offer this critical piece of information to the public (most officials I have noticed don't understand it themselves), we are left looking at these rare but weird observations and many coming to the wrong conclusions.

There is no doubt previous infection provides very good protection against future infections. As you said, it works very similar to vaccines. But even vaccines do not prevent a person's ability to absorb new virus and they are not instantaneous in how quickly they help you fight off the virus you do inhale when you expose yourself again to Covid. Depending on how much virus you expose yourself to (dose of infection) one could have a fairly asymptomatic infection first, caused by exposure to very little virus and then expose themselves to many magnitudes higher in virus amounts, and even with a stronger immune system, provided by the first infection, they may have symptoms and other illness caused by the increased time it is taking for their bodies to fight off the very large amount of viruses they allowed to enter their bodies, upon the 2nd exposure.

If one does not understand how this all works one not only will seriously misunderstand the benefits of previous infections but can lead to a misunderstanding how the vaccines work as well.

Dose of infection also helps explain why a very old person was infected with Covid and had no issues at all when a younger person got it and without any co-morbidities, was sent directly to the hospital. I have a friend who is an anti-vaxxer and he reiterates a case with a 95 year old women getting covid and having no problems. It gets annoying to hear, since it is easily explained, but without understanding dose of infection, leads many people to the wrong conclusions. In this case he is using it to conclude he does not need the vaccine when he has very little control over the dose of infection he will inevitably get in the future.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> I am sorry, but this is the single most ignorant post I have read today.
> 
> There is absolutely zero indication that getting covid for the second time is worse. It is blatantly false.
> Fighting COVID the first time teaches your system how to handle it, and you develop antibodies.
> Entire vaccination system works on this principle.
> It 'imitates' the real virus so that your body can learn how to fight it, and you claim that by fighting the virus it will get worse at doing it the second time? Simply not true.
> 
> People who went through COVID are protected. Studies show that natural protection lasts at least 13 months.
> European Union allows to substitute past positive COVID test for a vaccine passport because going through COVID means your immune system learned how to fight it and developed antibodies.


These stories say otherwise. And they aren't new. Looks like someone just doesn't want to read other news.









More people are getting COVID-19 twice, suggesting immunity wanes quickly in some


Reinfections give scientists clues about how long protection lasts—and how well vaccines might perform




www.sciencemag.org












Reinfections could be more likely among those with a mild first case of COVID-19: case study


Five seniors in a skilled nursing facility in Kentucky were reinfected with COVID-19 after recovering from a mild case of the coronavirus, suggesting that some people may be more at risk for reinfection, and even experiencing worse outcomes the second time.




www.ctvnews.ca












Covid reinfection: Man gets Covid twice and second hit 'more severe'


The report raises questions about how much immunity can be built up to the virus and how long it may last.



www.bbc.com


----------



## OptsyEagle

*You will get covid every time you expose yourself to the active virus.* Vaccination or previous infection cannot prevent that. The only difference is your outcome will be significantly better when you have had a previous infection or vaccination.

If we could all keep this in mind we will not be distracted as much by these meaningless articles and will be better able to focus on the real issues and appropriate solutions for them.

I have no problem with people posting these articles, just the misunderstanding of them.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

bgc_fan said:


> Sigh, you didn't listen to the video? He basically reiterates what I said and you are only taking things out of context. If you have a molecule of it, it will appear after application of the PCR. It multiplies the presence of any covid genetic material in the sample. The key is that you set up the PCR to look for a specific sequence unique to covid to illluminate, and that you aren't marking other random bits of DNA that aren't of interest. As he said (3:10), and what I've been saying all this time, it doesn't say that someone is sick, it just means that they have covid in the system. The point is, if you don't have any exposure to covid, PCR test will NOT show a "positive".


The point your making has nothing to do with my point. The virus is everywhere now, too many PCR cycles will show evidence of virus almost anywhere at this point. But that doesn't mean your sick or infectious. It certainly doesn't mean you've had covid either. And the PCR testing system has been shown to be abused to adjust the covid numbers, as well as falsify breakthrough data.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

zinfit said:


> ABC News has stories from doctors about unvaccinated patients in critical care pleading for the vaccine. The answer for these patients is " its too late".


Thats called (desperate) propaganda.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Tell that to the dying (from Covid) patient.


----------



## Spudd

In general, does it make sense that all the world governments, the New England Journal of Medicine and other reputable journals, and the vast majority of doctors and public health agencies would be lying to us for some nefarious reason? World governments especially will make more money if the economy is open and covid is gone - more income for them from taxes if business is running and people are working, and less expense on healthcare. 

On the other hand, does it make sense that some obscure websites and YouTubers would be lying to us in order to get more views/clicks through to their sites in order to make money?

If the vaccine was really more dangerous than covid, the governments would not be pushing the vaccine. They have no incentive to do so. You could argue pharma lobbying, but the rest of the businesses also lobby and they are MUCH larger than just the pharma industry.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Natural immunity (far) superior to vaxed during C19 "gamma" variant mini outbreak, 0/6 (0%) with prior C19 infected, vs 24/38 (63.2%) infected including 15/25 (60%) fully Pfizer vexed, who had no prior C19 infection.









Table - Breakthrough Infections of SARS-CoV-2 Gamma Variant in Fully Vaccinated Gold Miners, French Guiana, 2021 - Volume 27, Number 10—October 2021 - Emerging Infectious Diseases journal - CDC







wwwnc.cdc.gov


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> The point your making has nothing to do with my point. The virus is everywhere now, too many PCR cycles will show evidence of virus almost anywhere at this point. But that doesn't mean your sick or infectious. It certainly doesn't mean you've had covid either. And the PCR testing system has been shown to be abused to adjust the covid numbers, as well as falsify breakthrough data.


Your point is that the virus is everywhere. I'm going to say no, because people are going to test negative using PCR tests simply because, they weren't exposed. You do realize that the positivity rate for testing isn't 100% right? You want to guess what it is right now in Canada? 1.6%. That's a lot of negative tests for something that you seem to think is found everywhere, and that the government is trying to fudge so that they are all positive.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> In general, does it make sense that all the world governments, the New England Journal of Medicine and other reputable journals, and the vast majority of doctors and public health agencies would be lying to us for some nefarious reason? World governments especially will make more money if the economy is open and covid is gone - more income for them from taxes if business is running and people are working, and less expense on healthcare.
> 
> On the other hand, does it make sense that some obscure websites and YouTubers would be lying to us in order to get more views/clicks through to their sites in order to make money?
> 
> If the vaccine was really more dangerous than covid, the governments would not be pushing the vaccine. They have no incentive to do so. You could argue pharma lobbying, but the rest of the businesses also lobby and they are MUCH larger than just the pharma industry.


I agree it doesn't make sense, if you think the ultimate goal is to get western countries back to "normal". But we are on a fast track to anything but normal, by the standards of a free western democracy. 

Its not "Obscure" websites and Youtubers, thats disingenuous. I can think of nothing more 'obscure' than the government experts. Not to mention the censoring of far more qualified experts.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

418000 Indian death with population of 1 366 000 000 
it is like Canada would had 12 000 dead


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Dr. Geert Vinden Bossche warned that vaccinating into a pandemic is one of the most potentially dangerous things we could do. That vaccination into a pandemic can be the driver of ever more dangerous variants. 

He was marginalized and called a quack etc. 

Certainly looking like we should have listened.


----------



## Spudd

5Lgreenback said:


> Natural immunity (far) superior to vaxed during C19 "gamma" variant mini outbreak, 0/6 (0%) with prior C19 infected, vs 24/38 (63.2%) infected including 15/25 (60%) fully Pfizer vexed, who had no prior C19 infection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Table - Breakthrough Infections of SARS-CoV-2 Gamma Variant in Fully Vaccinated Gold Miners, French Guiana, 2021 - Volume 27, Number 10—October 2021 - Emerging Infectious Diseases journal - CDC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wwwnc.cdc.gov


So you want everyone to get C19 in order to vaccinate themselves instead of getting vaccinated? You conveniently left out that 75% of unvaccinated people without C19 history were infected during this outbreak.

Personally, I would rather get vaccinated than get C19. If C19 infection is now your recommended protection against C19 that's a little bit crazy, don't you think?


----------



## MrMatt

Spudd said:


> In general, does it make sense that all the world governments, the New England Journal of Medicine and other reputable journals, and the vast majority of doctors and public health agencies would be lying to us for some nefarious reason? World governments especially will make more money if the economy is open and covid is gone - more income for them from taxes if business is running and people are working, and less expense on healthcare.
> 
> On the other hand, does it make sense that some obscure websites and YouTubers would be lying to us in order to get more views/clicks through to their sites in order to make money?
> 
> If the vaccine was really more dangerous than covid, the governments would not be pushing the vaccine. They have no incentive to do so. You could argue pharma lobbying, but the rest of the businesses also lobby and they are MUCH larger than just the pharma industry.


Well the data suggests that the risk of of the disease for some people is extremely low.
We're not clear on the long term risk of the vaccine. (I believe it is low)

But if you have an extremely low risk and an unknown risk of vaccine, it might be logical to skip the vaccine for now.
Suggesting this is enough to get banned for "disinformation" if you're talking about COVID19 on some platforms.

However there are many vaccines that we dont' get, because the risk isn't very high.
For example TB isn't normally administered in my area, and most people only get the Hepatitus vaccines if they're travelling.

I think it is a completely logical position that in some cases it doesn't make sense to get vaccinated.


Now why would the government and powerful companies be pushing to suppress this information?
Because they want herd immunity and to end the pandemic, that's a good goal.
However I don't think actively blocking legitmate criticism is appropriate.

I think almost everyone should get a COVID19 vaccine, and I think a properly informed person would make the same determination. That being said, sometimes, even with the right information, people make bad decisions.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> So you want everyone to get C19 in order to vaccinate themselves instead of getting vaccinated? You conveniently left out that 75% of unvaccinated people without C19 history were infected during this outbreak.
> 
> Personally, I would rather get vaccinated than get C19. If C19 infection is now your recommended protection against C19 that's a little bit crazy, don't you think?


Thats your choice. And people should be free to choose, but they should be demanding INFORMED choice, The rest of people should not be getting coerced by loss of basic rights and freedoms to take a (questionable) vaccine.

They are arguing that young adults and children have to get vaccinated to "protect everyone else". Despite the vaccine posing higher risk to them than covid.

The vaccines don't stop spread of covid! So why would we vaccinate young healthy people and CHILDREN. Infact the vaccine appears to be accelerating covid in Europe! Censored experts were telling us this is exactly whats going to happen.

They. Are. Lying. To. Us. <-- and they keep doubling down on the lies.

Edit- And yes, I will take natural immunity over jabs and mandatory booster jabs for the rest of my life. If we allowed early treatment of covid this would be the best solution for all but the most vulnerable population.


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> The vaccines don't stop spread of covid! So why would we vaccinated young healthy people and CHILDREN. Infact the vaccine appears to be accelerating covid in Europe!


Sounds like you believe that 5G is spreading the virus because locations that are slated to have 5G towers are locations where you have the highest numbers of covid infections, omitting the fact that both are due to population density.

Here's the thing: correlation is not causation, which is what conspiracy theorists don't seem to understand. Yet they want to make the linkage. The delta variant is accelerating the infection rate, while countries are trying to speed up their vaccination rate due to the increased infection numbers.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

bgc_fan said:


> Sounds like you believe that 5G is spreading the virus because locations that are slated to have 5G towers are locations where you have the highest numbers of covid infections, omitting the fact that both are due to population density.
> 
> Here's the thing: correlation is not causation, which is what conspiracy theorists don't seem to understand. Yet they want to make the linkage. The delta variant is accelerating the infection rate, while countries are trying to speed up their vaccination rate due to the increased infection numbers.


Ah yes smears. The hail mary attempts of a dead argument.

The data is undeniable at this point, at the very least enough to PAUSE the campaign. Herd immunity is a bust via vaccination (this was a lie too), so theres no reason to not be able to stop or pause. But they won't stop, will they?

The fact that UK and Israel decided to start censoring the data as vaccinated data starting fairing worse than unvaccinated should be a warning sign to any rational person.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Listen, the vaccine question is quite simple. Vaccinate or get infected. Those are the choices. The India situation is quite telling to our future, in my opinion. I think they are talking about 2/3rds of the country with antibodies right now. That means that the delta variant went through that country like a wild fire during a wind gust. Since many Indian's must have obtained their infection outdoors, the death rate was obviously reduced significantly (although way too many died).

Now our country is not as tightly packed with people as India. Probably more the most opposite but hopefully we are packed enough to allow this virus to inoculate our unvaccinated as safely as possible and quickly. There will certainly be quite a few exceptions, that will be sent quickly to our hospitals, but for many more I hope they can get their immunization without as much sickness and death to go with it.

Obviously vaccination is safer but I doubt mentioning that another time is going to get them to roll up their sleeves, so infection is the route they will be going. If they manage to avoid infection until this fall, the probability of a much more scarier outcome increases dramatically, when we all go back indoors and allow this nasty variant to concentrate. That is when it gets ugly.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Responding to post #3,362:


> Edit- And yes, I will take natural immunity over jabs and mandatory booster jabs for the rest of my life. If we allowed early treatment of covid this would be the best solution for all but the most vulnerable population.


 ... since when were the jabs (vaccine) mandatory? and why would you need "booster" jabs? Also, why the need for early "treatment" for anyways? Never mind about your "best solution for all" and "but the most vulnerable population"? Why waste time, efforts and money with your "best (natural) solution" of status quo. 

Ever thought about being the first human to live on planet Mars? No.one.there.can.ever.lie.to.you.there.


----------



## Beaver101

5Lgreenback said:


> Ah yes smears. The hail mary attempts of a dead argument.
> 
> The data is undeniable at this point, at the very least enough to PAUSE the campaign. Herd immunity is a bust via vaccination (this was a lie too), so theres no reason to not be able to stop or pause. But they won't stop, will they?
> 
> The fact that UK and Israel decided to start censoring the data as vaccinated data starting fairing worse than unvaccinated should be a warning sign to any rational person.


 ... if a conspiracist says so.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

OptsyEagle said:


> Listen, the vaccine question is quite simple. Vaccinate or get infected. Those are the choices. The India situation is quite telling to our future, in my opinion. I think they are talking about 2/3rds of the country with antibodies right now. That means that the delta variant went through that country like a wild fire during a wind gust. Since many Indian's must have obtained their infection outdoors, the death rate was obviously reduced significantly (although way too many died).
> 
> Now our country is not as tightly packed with people as India. Probably more the most opposite but hopefully we are packed enough to allow this virus to inoculate our unvaccinated as safely as possible and quickly. There will certainly be quite a few exceptions, that will be sent quickly to our hospitals, but for many more I hope they can get their immunization without as much sickness and death to go with it.
> 
> Obviously vaccination is safer but I doubt mentioning that another time is going to get them to roll up their sleeves, so infection is the route they will be going. If they manage to avoid infection until this fall, the probability of a much more scarier outcome increases dramatically, when we all go back indoors and allow this nasty variant to concentrate. That is when it gets ugly.


Ok. But why are they still coercing previously infected to get vaccinated for example? Despite growing evidence that may be more harmful than good.

Why do they want a needle in every arm, and a vaccine passport system?

Get vaccinated or don't I agree. But why all the threats to freedoms for those who don't?

And Beaver, Trudeau ordered booster shots thru 2024, clearly they have no interest in ending this. So I'm really not sure what your trying to say.


----------



## Beaver101

^ So what Trudeau is ordering shots to 2024, or to perpetuity. The vaccine is "voluntary". You as with everyone else on this planet take your chance with getting Covid or not.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

This user posted a great thread on the parallels of the science of eugenics culture and campaign in America and Germany, to whats happening today. Worth a look.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417808131376259072


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Beaver101 said:


> ^ So what Trudeau is ordering shots to 2024, or to perpetuity. The vaccine is "voluntary". You as with everyone else on this planet take your chance with getting Covid or not.


No point in discussing this with you. Loss of career and income, travel freedoms, ability to dine out etc is hardly "voluntary". Not to mention illegal.


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> Ah yes smears. The hail mary attempts of a dead argument.
> 
> The data is undeniable at this point, at the very least enough to PAUSE the campaign. Herd immunity is a bust via vaccination (this was a lie too), so theres no reason to not be able to stop or pause. But they won't stop, will they?
> 
> The fact that UK and Israel decided to start censoring the data as vaccinated data starting fairing worse than unvaccinated should be a warning sign to any rational person.


Smears? It's just fact. You're looking at two independent issues: rising covid infections and rising vaccination rate, but you think they're correlated. The only probable correlation is that the governments are pushing increased vaccination efforts in response to rising infections. Otherwise, the increased vaccination rates is due to the increased availability of vaccines.

Only conspiracy theorists think that they are correlated because they can't believe that things can't happen independently, and it fits their world view.

I note that you NEVER try to address what I say, instead you pull up irrelevant misquotes and out of context information.


----------



## Beaver101

5Lgreenback said:


> No point in discussing this with you. Loss of career and income, travel freedoms, ability to dine out etc is hardly "voluntary". Not to mention illegal.


 ... I wouldn't disagree with "further discussing" things with a "conspiracist" too. 

So what's so "illegal (other than in your head)" about all that stuffs that you listed when all are voluntary. 

No one can force you to work, whether you earn an income or not, no one gives a sh1t. You can still get out of your basement to go to the park or get pizza. If your local pizza ain't good enough, you can still cross the border (at your own dime of course) and stuff yourself with chicken wings.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

bgc_fan said:


> Smears? It's just fact. You're looking at two independent issues: rising covid infections and rising vaccination rate, but you think they're correlated. The only probable correlation is that the governments are pushing increased vaccination efforts in response to rising infections. Otherwise, the increased vaccination rates is due to the increased availability of vaccines.
> 
> Only conspiracy theorists think that they are correlated because they can't believe that things can't happen independently, and it fits their world view.
> 
> I note that you NEVER try to address what I say, instead you pull up irrelevant misquotes and out of context information.


The serious mental gymnastics here and denial of reality would take me too long to unravel.

Its funny because I had noticed your quite at good at misdirecting and deflecting yourself. 

Anything you ask or say, that I may not respond to, is generally because its not relevant to the point, or often a deflection.

I love how people who question the narrative, dig deeper, try to confirm things, find the evidence, expose lies, and do some critical thinking are "conspiracy theorists". 

What do we call people who blindly follow the narrative and parrot everything they're told? No matter how many times its proven wrong? Or how many times the narrative shifts the goal posts?

Its just to flatten the curve.

Its just a mask.

Its just until the vaccine is available

Its just until the elderly are vaccinated

Its just until the cases drop

Its just until everybody is vaccinated

Its just an app for your safety

Its just a social credit score


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> The serious mental gymnastics here and denial of reality would take me too long to unravel.
> 
> Its funny because I had noticed your quite at good at misdirecting and deflecting yourself.
> 
> Anything you ask or say, that I may not respond to, is generally because its not relevant to the point, or often a deflection.
> 
> I love how people who question the narrative, dig deeper, try to confirm things, find the evidence, expose lies, and do some critical thinking are "conspiracy theorists".
> 
> What do we call people who blindly follow the narrative and parrot everything they're told? No matter how many times its proven wrong? Or how many times the narrative shifts the goal posts?
> 
> Its just to flatten the curve.
> 
> Its just a mask.
> 
> Its just until the vaccine is available
> 
> Its just until the elderly are vaccinated
> 
> Its just until the cases drop
> 
> Its just until everybody is vaccinated
> 
> Its just an app for your safety
> 
> Its just a social credit score


I'm sorry, you have a point here? The thing is that you aren't doing critical thinking, you're doing exactly what conspiracy theorists do. You put out your "theory" and then any time someone contradicts you, you ad hominem attack saying that "you're all part of the corrupt system", or you're sheep. You can't put a concrete argument together. You just spit out and repeat what other people say, and it shows that you have a weak understanding of what they say when the "evidence" you present actually contradicts your points.


----------



## sags

There is no logical reason not to wear a mask, except perhaps for the "it is suffocating my brain and causing my mentals to die" point.........


----------



## Beaver101

I wonder if the poster got training from the leader of the pack-lonewolf?


----------



## bgc_fan

Beaver101 said:


> I wonder if the poster got training from the leader of the pack-lonewolf?


I figure as much. He's worth the same effort to respond, but I figure it's pretty dangerous to have people spouting out stuff that they have no clue about and passing it off as information.

At least everyone knows not to take lonewolf seriously.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> There is no logical reason not to wear a mask, except perhaps for the "it is suffocating my brain and causing my mentals to die" point.........


Sure there is, it causes my glasses to fog up.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ^ So what Trudeau is ordering shots to 2024, or to perpetuity. The vaccine is "voluntary". You as with everyone else on this planet take your chance with getting Covid or not.


July 20 (Reuters) - Two-thirds of India's population have antibodies against the coronavirus, according to data released on Tuesday from a survey of 29,000 people across the nation conducted in June and July.
418000 Indian death with population of 1 366 000 000 
it is like Canada would had 12 000 dead, Canada had 26 000
It looks like a danger from covid is exaggerated.


----------



## OptsyEagle

5Lgreenback said:


> Ok. But why are they still coercing previously infected to get vaccinated for example? Despite growing evidence that may be more harmful than good.
> 
> Why do they want a needle in every arm, and a vaccine passport system?
> 
> Get vaccinated or don't I agree. But why all the threats to freedoms for those who don't?
> 
> And Beaver, Trudeau ordered booster shots thru 2024, clearly they have no interest in ending this. So I'm really not sure what your trying to say.


They are asking the previously infected to get vaccinated for two reasons. The 1st is that they noticed that the body seems to produce more antibodies with the vaccine then they do from infection itself. Whether that means a person is more protected with the vaccine, I won't comment. I know there is a lot more to a person's immune protection then just antibodies but that is the 1st answer to your question.

The 2nd answer is that they don't know if there is a minimum amount of dose, either vaccine or infection, that a person needs for the body to fully protect you. With the vaccine, everyone gets the same dose. Since it is safe they give everyone a very big one. With infection, some people get large doses, some get medium doses and some people get minute doses. It is random, depending on their exposure. Are they all protected the same after? Probably not but again, we don't know the true answer, we can only use theory here.

My comments in previous posts are based on the reality that if a person refuses to get vaccinated, their next best hope for protection is infection, and with that I recommend they attempt to get the smallest dose possible. If they know they have it, then can attempt larger doses on the 2nd round and 3rd etc. Every exposure will make all of us safer but ONLY if we survive. They have chosen a very dangerous way to protect themselves and I hope it works out well for them.

I hope that answers your question.


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> July 20 (Reuters) - Two-thirds of India's population have antibodies against the coronavirus, according to data released on Tuesday from a survey of 29,000 people across the nation conducted in June and July.
> 418000 Indian death with population of 1 366 000 000
> it is like Canada would had 12 000 dead, Canada had 26 000
> It looks like a danger from covid is exaggerated.











Covid-19: India excess deaths cross four million, says study


Excess deaths - those above expected levels - are a measure of the overall impact of the pandemic.



www.bbc.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> Covid-19: India excess deaths cross four million, says study
> 
> 
> Excess deaths - those above expected levels - are a measure of the overall impact of the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


let’s operate with official numbers for now.


----------



## gibor365

Ministers okay return of Green Pass; plan to ban travel to UK, Cyprus, Turkey


As of next Thursday, Israelis will once again need to present proof of vaccination or recovery from COVID, or a negative test, to attend certain events




www.timesofisrael.com


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> let’s operate with official numbers for now.


India is a developing nation so their official numbers are not very reliable.


----------



## bgc_fan

Spudd said:


> So you want everyone to get C19 in order to vaccinate themselves instead of getting vaccinated? You conveniently left out that 75% of unvaccinated people without C19 history were infected during this outbreak.
> 
> Personally, I would rather get vaccinated than get C19. If C19 infection is now your recommended protection against C19 that's a little bit crazy, don't you think?


Never try to be logical... here's the covid mortality rate in Canada (dropping due to the ages now involved, but likely to hover in the 1-2% area).











Here's a snippet of time with respect to 13,794,904 vaccine doses in Dec-Jan timeframe... 113 deaths reported to VAERS. Even if you leave in the fact that 78 of them were LTCF patients and died of natural causes, that's 0.00082% mortality rate calculation. I count at least 3 orders of magnitude of difference.

I guess anti-vaxxers were counting on not getting covid for survival, but now they're advocating for a throw-back of covid parties? I guess there's no point in reasoning... in fact there never was.


----------



## bgc_fan

Here's an interesting article about the mRNA vaccines and how they exceeded expectations, as well as issues as the virus mutates: COVID-19 Vaccines Work Way Better Than We Had Ever Expected. Scientists Are Still Figuring Out Why.

The interesting snippet is how the mRNA vaccines hit the sweet spot for effectiveness based on how they were designed to target the spike protein:

_There is a balance to this kind of specific targeting in vaccines. While all the most successful COVID-19 vaccines are aimed against the spike protein, some earlier prototypes targeted only its uppermost tip. That too-narrow approach proved to be less effective.
So did aiming too broadly. More-traditional vaccines, like the 50% effective Sinopharm vaccine made out of inactivated virus particles, train the body to make antibodies against the entire virus. That trick of biology explains its lower effectiveness.
“[The spike is] sort of a sitting duck in a lot of ways for vaccination,” Bhattacharya said. “It’s just asking for it.”_

The other part is about how much easier the process is to develop the vaccine as opposed to the flu and HIV. Basically it mutates slower.

_And scientists knew that, unlike the flu, which sloppily shuffles its genes when it reproduces, the coronavirus is a more sophisticated bug, repairing errors that crop up in its genes during replication. That competitive advantage ends up working against SARS-CoV-2 when it comes to vaccines, making it a slower-moving target than other viruses.
“If this was HIV, for every variant we see now with SARS-2, we’d see 1,000 more,” Rutherford said._

Just to answer those conspiracy questions about how it was developed so quickly and is so effective.


----------



## zinfit

5Lgreenback said:


> Thats called (desperate) propaganda.


No it doctors on the frontline relating to real situations. Nothing phoney about these stories.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> Here's an interesting article about the mRNA vaccines


Israel Reports COVID Vaccine Effectiveness Against Infection Down to 40%
The Health Ministry said Thursday that the effectiveness of the Pfizer-BioNTech coronavirus vaccine in preventing infection and mild symptoms has dropped to 40 percent, according to data collected over the past month as the delta variant spreads in Israel.


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> Israel Reports COVID Vaccine Effectiveness Against Infection Down to 40%
> The Health Ministry said Thursday that the effectiveness of the Pfizer-BioNTech coronavirus vaccine in preventing infection and mild symptoms has dropped to 40 percent, according to data collected over the past month as the delta variant spreads in Israel.


What an alarmist headline. How about the rest of the sub-headline:

_Same Israeli data shows effectiveness of COVID vaccine in preventing hospitalizations and severe symptoms at 88 percent and 91 percent, respectively._

So, a 60% chance you may get mild symptoms; however, the chance of hospitalization is 9 to 12 percent... that's well within the ballpark of the original effectiveness. But then the devil's in the details right? Here's more context from the article:

_Notably, the data might be skewed because a *significant portion of the coronavirus tests in Israel were conducted in hot spots and among the elderly*, while a small number of tests was carried out among the young and vaccinated population._

So the data was based on the elderly in hotspots and not a random population. Kind of biases the results, particularly when the elderly generally have a weaker immune system and possibly require a lower viral load to exhibit symptoms. But even then, the fact that a significant percentage don't need hospitalization is a win in my book.

Oh, and next time, it's probably best to actually link the article.


----------



## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> What an alarmist headline. How about the rest of the sub-headline:
> 
> _*Same Israeli data shows effectiveness of COVID vaccine in preventing hospitalizations and severe symptoms at 88 percent and 91 percent, respectively.*_
> 
> So, a 60% chance you may get mild symptoms; however, the chance of hospitalization is 9 to 12 percent... that's well within the ballpark of the original effectiveness. But then the devil's in the details right? Here's more context from the article:
> 
> _Notably, the data might be skewed because a *significant portion of the coronavirus tests in Israel were conducted in hot spots and among the elderly*, while a small number of tests was carried out among the young and vaccinated population._
> 
> So the data was based on the elderly in hotspots and not a random population. Kind of biases the results, particularly when the elderly generally have a weaker immune system and possibly require a lower viral load to exhibit symptoms. But even then, the fact that a significant percentage don't need hospitalization is a win in my book.
> 
> Oh, and next time, it's probably best to actually link the article.


This is exactly the point of vaccine to prevent severe cases, hospitalization and death


----------



## sags

Still.......9-12% chance of serious symptoms and hospitalizations is pretty high to be opening everything up.

Mass exposure and outbreaks could leave a lot of people in the hospital. I guess if the numbers climb......we are back to shutdowns again.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> the chance of hospitalization is 9 to 12 percent.


9-12% for vaccinated 
and
1-8% for unvaccinated.
Once infected with the new coronavirus, a 20-something has about a 1% chance of illness so severe it requires hospitalization, and that risk rises to more than 8% for people in their 50s and to nearly 19% for people over 80, a comprehensive new analysis finds.
By decade, the risk of hospitalization from infection with the new coronavirus is: Zero for kids under 10; 0.1% for kids 10 to 19; 1% for people aged 20 to 29; 3.4% for people aged 30 to 39; 4.3% for people in their 40s; 8.2% for those in their 50s; 11.8% for people aged 60 to 69; 16.6% for those in their 70s; and 18.4% for those in their 80s or above.

what is the point for me of getting the second shot of experimental vaccine?


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> 9-12% for vaccinated
> and
> 1-8% for unvaccinated.
> Once infected with the new coronavirus, a 20-something has about a 1% chance of illness so severe it requires hospitalization, and that risk rises to more than 8% for people in their 50s and to nearly 19% for people over 80, a comprehensive new analysis finds.
> By decade, the risk of hospitalization from infection with the new coronavirus is: Zero for kids under 10; 0.1% for kids 10 to 19; 1% for people aged 20 to 29; 3.4% for people aged 30 to 39; 4.3% for people in their 40s; 8.2% for those in their 50s; 11.8% for people aged 60 to 69; 16.6% for those in their 70s; and 18.4% for those in their 80s or above.
> 
> what is the point for me of getting the second shot of experimental vaccine?


Oh, where is this about the unvaccinated? Want to provide the source? It certainly wasn't in the first article. Is it this? Odds of hospitalization, death from COVID-19 rise steadily with age

Looks like you've taken the @5Lgreenback logic, and taking information that you don't understand, comparing apples to oranges.

For the first article, they don't actually break down the demographics so you can't make that comparison.
However, since the majority of the was mentioned to be elderly, I think assuming that the 9-12% would be the 60+ age group. What does your second source say? 11.8-18.4%. Looks like you can halve the chance of hospital stay. Don't think it's worth it?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> Don't think it's worth it


Yes it’s worth it for 60+
Not worth it for younger folks. Especially for people under 30 years, where vaccines can trigger myocarditis.


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> Yes it’s worth it for 60+
> Not worth it for younger folks. Especially for people under 30 years, where vaccines can trigger myocarditis.


Numbers are hard aren't they?
1000 reported cases as of July 1, with 79% recovered. 
364,448,967 doses administered... so lets say that taken into account only a percentage got a 2nd dose, so lets say 200,000,000 people.

Percentage? 0.0005%.... vs 0.1% at the low end... which do you think is the higher number?


----------



## damian13ster

OptsyEagle said:


> As I have stated many times but it has been a lonely voice, is that "dose of infection" plays the primary role in ones outcome from most viruses, especially Covid-19. Since our health officials did not find it necessary to offer this critical piece of information to the public (most officials I have noticed don't understand it themselves), we are left looking at these rare but weird observations and many coming to the wrong conclusions.
> 
> There is no doubt previous infection provides very good protection against future infections. As you said, it works very similar to vaccines. But even vaccines do not prevent a person's ability to absorb new virus and they are not instantaneous in how quickly they help you fight off the virus you do inhale when you expose yourself again to Covid. Depending on how much virus you expose yourself to (dose of infection) one could have a fairly asymptomatic infection first, caused by exposure to very little virus and then expose themselves to many magnitudes higher in virus amounts, and even with a stronger immune system, provided by the first infection, they may have symptoms and other illness caused by the increased time it is taking for their bodies to fight off the very large amount of viruses they allowed to enter their bodies, upon the 2nd exposure.
> 
> If one does not understand how this all works one not only will seriously misunderstand the benefits of previous infections but can lead to a misunderstanding how the vaccines work as well.
> 
> Dose of infection also helps explain why a very old person was infected with Covid and had no issues at all when a younger person got it and without any co-morbidities, was sent directly to the hospital. I have a friend who is an anti-vaxxer and he reiterates a case with a 95 year old women getting covid and having no problems. It gets annoying to hear, since it is easily explained, but without understanding dose of infection, leads many people to the wrong conclusions. In this case he is using it to conclude he does not need the vaccine when he has very little control over the dose of infection he will inevitably get in the future.


Actually, there is an explanation and quite simple one at that.
It isn't the virus that destroys you, it is your immune system reaction to the virus that destroys you if you are young.
Young people simply don't let the virus multiplicate in their body at the rate that people with weak immune system do. Since the concentration is relatively small, immune system reaction doesn't get a chance to destroy your body before the miniscule amount of virus is neutralized.
That's also the reason why young people die and are hospitalized much more frequently due to vaccine than old people.
Suddenly you are given a substantial amount of the virus, and due to violent reaction of your body to such a viral load, the immune system starts to destroy your body.
In older population immune system isn't that strong and aggressive so they aren't killed by the vaccines like young people.


----------



## damian13ster

Spudd said:


> In general, does it make sense that all the world governments, the New England Journal of Medicine and other reputable journals, and the vast majority of doctors and public health agencies would be lying to us for some nefarious reason? World governments especially will make more money if the economy is open and covid is gone - more income for them from taxes if business is running and people are working, and less expense on healthcare.
> 
> On the other hand, does it make sense that some obscure websites and YouTubers would be lying to us in order to get more views/clicks through to their sites in order to make money?
> 
> If the vaccine was really more dangerous than covid, the governments would not be pushing the vaccine. They have no incentive to do so. You could argue pharma lobbying, but the rest of the businesses also lobby and they are MUCH larger than just the pharma industry.


Government doesn't care about some lost revenue. They still get their salaries paid, they still get their pensions, and they still get luxury vacations on private islands in exchange for handing out public money. They care about next election, not future generations.
Governments care about power - and 2020 was the single biggest power grab in human history


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> Numbers are hard aren't they?


As for the death rate, the risk was near zero for people under 40, crept up to 0.2% for people 40 to 49, to 0.6% for 50-somethings.
near zero vs your number 
I stand corrected, the shot is worth for people over 60 (they are already one leg in the grave, does not matter any undiscovered side effects). 
definitely isn’t worth for people under 30 years
and for people from 30-60 as they wish 50/50


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> As for the death rate, the risk was near zero for people under 40, crept up to 0.2% for people 40 to 49, to 0.6% for 50-somethings.
> near zero vs your number
> I stand corrected, the shot is worth for people over 60 (they are already one leg in the grave, does not matter any undiscovered side effects).
> definitely isn’t worth for people under 30 years
> and for people from 30-60 as they wish 50/50


Even if you are correct, our kids had vaccines because they don't want us (parents) and their grandmoms (who are well above 60) to get sick. Also , they want to travel internationally, and w/o vaccine it's practically impossible


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> As for the death rate, the risk was near zero for people under 40, crept up to 0.2% for people 40 to 49, to 0.6% for 50-somethings.
> near zero vs your number
> I stand corrected, the shot is worth for people over 60 (they are already one leg in the grave, does not matter any undiscovered side effects).
> definitely isn’t worth for people under 30 years
> and for people from 30-60 as they wish 50/50


You do have a problem with numbers...
0.1% (for 10-19 yr olds, from your previous story) vs 0.0005%. Which is bigger, here's a hint, zeros on the right side of the decimal place means it is smaller. Oh, and 79% of that 0.0005% recovered, so the death rate is actually 0.000105%. BTW 0.000105% is pretty near 0.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> Even if you are correct, our kids had vaccines because they don't want us (parents) and their grandmoms (who are well above 60) to get sick.


 why parents and grandmoms who are vaccinated get sick from unvaccinated kids?



bgc_fan said:


> 0.1%


 this number is a hospitalization rate, if you were to read carefully. It doesn’t matter in the context 0.1% or 0.0005% hospitalization rate ( I know my math I didn’t graduate Canadian elementary school) , because for unvaccinated kids deaths rate is virtually zero.


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> why parents and grandmoms who are vaccinated get sick from unvaccinated kids?
> 
> 
> this number is a hospitalization rate, if you were to read carefully. It doesn’t matter in the context 0.1% or 0.0005% hospitalization rate ( I know my math *I didn’t graduate Canadian elementary school*) , because for unvaccinated kids deaths rate is virtually zero.


It shows you didn't graduate. 0.000105% is the death rate I mentioned and that's virtually zero.

Edit: that's basically 1 in a million.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> the chance of hospitalization is 9 to 12 percent





bgc_fan said:


> Percentage? 0.0005%.... vs 0.1% at the low end... which do you think is the higher number?





bgc_fan said:


> 0.000105% is the death rate


When did you mention the death rate?

if you recall the initial conversation started with your estimates of hospitalization for vaccinated people at 9-12% 
Correct?
Then I gave you the information that hospitalization rates are very low for unvaccinated youth. The death rate for people under 20 is zero, and for under 40 years is virtually zero (let assume your number 0.000105%, is this covid death? Or myocarditis death?). It doesn’t make sense to vaccinate kids under 20 years old and very little sense to get vaccinated under 40. 
it makes a huge difference for people over 60 years get vaccinated (they are already one leg in the grave and can definitely take any possible undiscovered vaccine side effects). 
As for people who are 40-60 years group they should get vaccinated if they are morbidly obese or got other predispositions.
I hope it’s clear. 

By decade, the risk of hospitalization from infection with the new coronavirus is: Zero for kids under 10; 0.1% for kids 10 to 19; 1% for people aged 20 to 29; 3.4% for people aged 30 to 39; 4.3% for people in their 40s; 8.2% for those in their 50s; 11.8% for people aged 60 to 69; 16.6% for those in their 70s; and 18.4% for those in their 80s or above.

As for the death rate, the risk was near zero for people under 40, crept up to 0.2% for people 40 to 49, to 0.6% for 50-somethings, just under 2% for people in their 60s, 4.3% for those in their 70s, and 7.8% for those in their 80s, the findings showed.


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> When did you mention the death rate?
> 
> if you recall the initial conversation started with your estimates of hospitalization for vaccinated people at 9-12%
> Correct?
> Then I gave you the information that hospitalization rates are very low for unvaccinated youth. The death rate for people under 20 is zero, and for under 40 years is virtually zero (let assume your number 0.000105%, is this covid death? Or myocarditis death?). It doesn’t make sense to vaccinate kids under 20 years old and very little sense to get vaccinated under 40.
> it makes a huge difference for people over 60 years get vaccinated (they are already one leg in the grave and can definitely take any possible undiscovered vaccine side effects).
> As for people who are 40-60 years group they should get vaccinated if they are morbidly obese or got other predispositions.
> I hope it’s clear.
> 
> By decade, the risk of hospitalization from infection with the new coronavirus is: Zero for kids under 10; 0.1% for kids 10 to 19; 1% for people aged 20 to 29; 3.4% for people aged 30 to 39; 4.3% for people in their 40s; 8.2% for those in their 50s; 11.8% for people aged 60 to 69; 16.6% for those in their 70s; and 18.4% for those in their 80s or above.
> 
> As for the death rate, the risk was near zero for people under 40, crept up to 0.2% for people 40 to 49, to 0.6% for 50-somethings, just under 2% for people in their 60s, 4.3% for those in their 70s, and 7.8% for those in their 80s, the findings showed.


According to the Canadian government, the death rate for kids 0-19 catching covid is 0.1%. Hospitalization rate is 1.9%. (Scroll to almost the bottom of the page, there's a graph that lets you toggle between hospitalizations/deaths by age.)





COVID-19 epidemiology update: Key updates — Canada.ca


This summary of COVID-19 cases across Canada contains detailed data about the spread of the virus over time and in different regions of the country. Includes breakdowns by age and sex or gender. Provides an overview of testing, variants of concern, cases following vaccination and severe illness...




health-infobase.canada.ca





According to bgc_fan, the death rate for kids getting the vaccine is 0.000105%.

Last time I checked, 0.000105% is a lot less than 0.1%.

Here's a medical site talking about the risks, and they say:
In males ages 12-17, vaccination prevents 5,700 COVID cases, 215 hospitalizations, 71 ICU admissions, and two deaths -- at a cost of 56 to 69 myocarditis cases.

In males ages 18-24, vaccination prevents 12,000 COVID cases, 530 hospitalizations, 127 ICU admissions, and three deaths, at a cost of 45 to 56 myocarditis cases.

That might sound bad (more myocarditis than deaths) but these myocarditis cases generally resolve in 2-3 days and are treatable with anti-inflammatories. These people are generally not dying or suffering long-term consequences.








Here's Why Experts Are Comfortable With Myocarditis Numbers


The signal is real, but the condition is mild, and the benefits outweigh any risks




www.medpagetoday.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> According to the Canadian government, the death rate for kids 0-19 catching covid is 0.1%. Hospitalization rate is 1.9%.


By decade, the risk of hospitalization from infection with the new coronavirus is: Zero for kids under 10; 0.1% for kids 10 to 19; 1% for people aged 20 to 29; 3.4% for people aged 30 to 39; 4.3% for people in their 40s; 8.2% for those in their 50s; 11.8% for people aged 60 to 69; 16.6% for those in their 70s; and 18.4% for those in their 80s or above.

As for the death rate, the risk was near zero for people under 40, crept up to 0.2% for people 40 to 49, to 0.6% for 50-somethings, just under 2% for people in their 60s, 4.3% for those in their 70s, and 7.8% for those in their 80s, the findings showed.

Canadian government likely are getting the cuts from vaccines deal with Pfizer of course they would want to get everyone vaccinated.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

During March 1–30, underlying medical conditions and symptoms at admission were reported through COVID-NET for approximately 180 (12.1%) hospitalized adults (Table); 89.3% had one or more underlying conditions. The most commonly reported were hypertension (49.7%), obesity (48.3%), chronic lung disease (34.6%), diabetes mellitus (28.3%), and cardiovascular disease (27.8%).
Among patients aged 18–49 years, obesity was the most prevalent underlying condition, followed by chronic lung disease (primarily asthma) and diabetes mellitus. Among patients aged 50–64 years, obesity was most prevalent, followed by hypertension and diabetes mellitus; and among those aged ≥65 years, hypertension was most prevalent, followed by cardiovascular disease and diabetes mellitus.
according to CDC.

it does make any sense to vaccinate kids, zero risk.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> ... it does make any sense to vaccinate kids, zero risk.


 ... not sure which school you graduated from on your math nor do I care. "Virtually zero" does not equate to "zero (as in none, nada, zilch, etc)" risk.

Just from 2 days ago, try telling the parents of this 5 year kid who died from Covid (or a stroke that came about from acquiring Covid) that there is "zero" risk:

Family releases heartbreaking statement after healthy 5-year-old catches COVID and dies in his mother’s arms


----------



## 5Lgreenback

I don't think I need to address the hypocrisy of BGC and others who claim its me who is not understanding the data. I sense some misdirected anger and resentment in these tones, but I'm not the enemy here.

BTW I'm not referring to Optsy who was reasonable, but still left some holes in the answers to questions, especially the most important one pertaining to the lack of science and justification for the totalitarian vaccine passport systems being forced on us...

Well, the "conspiracy" crowd was right yet again.

Despite no science or logical evidence showing why a totalitarian passport system would be necessary for a vax that doesn't stop transmission and already appears to be failing in Europe for hospitalizations and case counts, the vax fanatics still don't get it.

UOC and soon to be policy everywhere:

https://ucnet.universityofcalifornia...olicy-faqs.pdf

"6. *Is this a one-time mandate or will I be required to get boosters or annual shots?

This is a permanent policy. Infectious disease experts anticipate that annual or more frequent boosters will be necessary, and receipt of boosters will be required, consistent with product labeling,* in the same way that the initial vaccination is required by this policy and subject to the same exceptions and deferrals."

Boosters yearly or more for the rest of everyones (short) lives. Damn those dangerous conspiracy folks and their predictions.

Or the people could rise up and say "enough".

Edit- and side note, they stated remote students would need proof of vax too!

How can anyone think this is about health? 95% of uni students getting covid would be like a cold or less, after which they would have robust immunity to it. (if they don't get vaxxed after). And the remaining 4.9% might get flu like symptoms.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Ex New York Times writer Alex Brensen and a few others finally figured out how they came up with a 97% figure. Basically they were using CUMULATIVE numbers for the year, which includes months when almost no one was vaccinated, to hide whats happening now.

You can trust us, we're from the government (and big pharma, MSM etc)

The Alberta Gov is doing the same. I hope people can spot the deception here? Hint- Vaccinations barely began until MARCH.

https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-1...ccine-outcomes

*Since Jan 1, 2021, 0.2% of people with one dose (5,233/2,803,690) were diagnosed with COVID-19 14 days after the first immunization date

Since Jan 1, 2021, 0% of people with two doses (639/2,281,420) were diagnosed with COVID-19 14 days after the second immunization date

95.2% of cases (123,526/129,759) since Jan 1, 2021 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date

92.2% of hospitalized cases (5,202/5,643) since Jan 1, 2021 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date

86.8% of COVID-19 deaths (683/787) since Jan 1, 2021 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date*


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> By decade, the risk of hospitalization from infection with the new coronavirus is: Zero for kids under 10; 0.1% for kids 10 to 19; 1% for people aged 20 to 29; 3.4% for people aged 30 to 39; 4.3% for people in their 40s; 8.2% for those in their 50s; 11.8% for people aged 60 to 69; 16.6% for those in their 70s; and 18.4% for those in their 80s or above.
> 
> As for the death rate, the risk was near zero for people under 40, crept up to 0.2% for people 40 to 49, to 0.6% for 50-somethings, just under 2% for people in their 60s, 4.3% for those in their 70s, and 7.8% for those in their 80s, the findings showed.
> 
> Canadian government likely are getting the cuts from vaccines deal with Pfizer of course they would want to get everyone vaccinated.


You throw these stats but you don't provide any source. My data was sourced from the Canadian government.


----------



## Spudd

5Lgreenback said:


> Ex New York Times writer Alex Brensen and a few others finally figured out how they came up with a 97% figure. Basically they were using CUMULATIVE numbers for the year, which includes months when almost no one was vaccinated, to hide whats happening now.
> 
> You can trust us, we're from the government (and big pharma, MSM etc)
> 
> The Alberta Gov is doing the same. I hope people can spot the deception here? Hint- Vaccinations barely began until MARCH.
> 
> https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-1...ccine-outcomes
> 
> *Since Jan 1, 2021, 0.2% of people with one dose (5,233/2,803,690) were diagnosed with COVID-19 14 days after the first immunization date
> 
> Since Jan 1, 2021, 0% of people with two doses (639/2,281,420) were diagnosed with COVID-19 14 days after the second immunization date
> 
> 95.2% of cases (123,526/129,759) since Jan 1, 2021 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date
> 
> 92.2% of hospitalized cases (5,202/5,643) since Jan 1, 2021 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date
> 
> 86.8% of COVID-19 deaths (683/787) since Jan 1, 2021 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date*


I don't think that data is as damning as you think it is. 

But if the time period is the concern, how about this data from Grey Bruce county?
Locally, the vast majority, 285 or 95.6 per cent, of the 298 total cases reported from July 1 to July 15, 2021, were not fully vaccinated. 




__





COVID-19 Cases Linked to “Pandemic of the Unvaccinated”


It is clear the current surge in cases in Grey Bruce is primarily in people who have not been vaccinated. Internationally, it is now identified as the “Pandemic of the unvaccinated” and the local situation is no different.Locally, the vast majority



www1.publichealthgreybruce.on.ca


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> Just from 2 days ago, try telling the parents of this 5 year kid who died from Covid (or a stroke


One in 340 million country is virtually zero.
plus he tested covid positive and died from who knows why.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> *One in 340 million country is virtually zero.*
> plus he tested covid positive and died from who knows why.


 ... "virtually zero" from your mathematical deduction.

I can guess you didn't even bother reading the article so:



> _Wyatt Gibson became ill last week with what *his family first thought was salmonella food poisoning*, but they became alarmed after his tongue turned white a short time later and took him to a hospital, *where he was diagnosed with strep throat, a staph infection and COVID-19, reported WGXA-TV. *
> 
> His mother and father, Whitfield County sheriff's Lt. Wes Gibson, also became ill from COVID-19, and *their son died Friday from a stroke,* leaving behind his parents and a 9-month-old sister.
> 
> *A massive stroke struck the soul of his brain,*" the family said in a statement. "As his mother gathered him softly to her chest. Two hearts beating slowly... then one. He suddenly became so heavy as the soul who lit this body departed."_
> 
> *The boy didn't have any underlying health conditions before falling ill to the virus ...*



And then you're not his parents nor his sibling nor his loved one so this "1=virtually zero" is meaningless to you.

Are you a time-traveller or a humanoid?


----------



## damian13ster

Spudd said:


> I don't think that data is as damning as you think it is.
> 
> But if the time period is the concern, how about this data from Grey Bruce county?
> Locally, the vast majority, 285 or 95.6 per cent, of the 298 total cases reported from July 1 to July 15, 2021, were not fully vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Cases Linked to “Pandemic of the Unvaccinated”
> 
> 
> It is clear the current surge in cases in Grey Bruce is primarily in people who have not been vaccinated. Internationally, it is now identified as the “Pandemic of the unvaccinated” and the local situation is no different.Locally, the vast majority
> 
> 
> 
> www1.publichealthgreybruce.on.ca


That is useless statistic. The official policy is not to test vaccinated people. If you don't test - there are no cases. 
They only test if there are symptoms. They test unvaccinated close contacts. You would have to look at positivity rate of tests between vaccinated and unvaccinated people to correct for that massive influence on the data.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... "virtually zero" from your mathematical deduction.
> 
> I can guess you didn't even bother reading the article so:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And then you're not his parents nor his sibling nor his loved one so this "1=virtually zero" is meaningless to you.
> 
> Are you a time-traveller or a humanoid?


Staph infection is not considered an underlying disease?
Staph infection is literally deadly, and all the symptoms you described are symptoms of staph infection.
He was killed by Staph infection.

If I am diagnosed with terminal cancer, a bullet hole in the head, and COVID, COVID wasn't the case of death.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Staph infection is not considered an underlying disease?
> Staph infection is literally deadly, and all the symptoms you described are symptoms of staph infection.
> He was killed by Staph infection.


 ... might want ask the questions "where did he get the staph infection from?" Was it purely coincident he got Covid at the same time? His parents got Covid and why didn't they get staph first? 



> If I am diagnosed with terminal cancer, a bullet hole in the head, and COVID, COVID wasn't the case of death.


 ... cause of death: gunshot (fatal) wound in the cranial.


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> When did you mention the death rate?
> 
> if you recall the initial conversation started with your estimates of hospitalization for vaccinated people at 9-12%
> Correct?
> Then I gave you the information that hospitalization rates are very low for unvaccinated youth. The death rate for people under 20 is zero, and for under 40 years is virtually zero (let assume your number 0.000105%, is this covid death? Or myocarditis death?). It doesn’t make sense to vaccinate kids under 20 years old and very little sense to get vaccinated under 40.
> it makes a huge difference for people over 60 years get vaccinated (they are already one leg in the grave and can definitely take any possible undiscovered vaccine side effects).
> As for people who are 40-60 years group they should get vaccinated if they are morbidly obese or got other predispositions.
> I hope it’s clear.
> 
> By decade, the risk of hospitalization from infection with the new coronavirus is: Zero for kids under 10; 0.1% for kids 10 to 19; 1% for people aged 20 to 29; 3.4% for people aged 30 to 39; 4.3% for people in their 40s; 8.2% for those in their 50s; 11.8% for people aged 60 to 69; 16.6% for those in their 70s; and 18.4% for those in their 80s or above.
> 
> As for the death rate, the risk was near zero for people under 40, crept up to 0.2% for people 40 to 49, to 0.6% for 50-somethings, just under 2% for people in their 60s, 4.3% for those in their 70s, and 7.8% for those in their 80s, the findings showed.


I shouldn't even respond since you don't read the thread. We started off with the hospitalization, YOU then switched to death rate. Now YOU are switching back to hospitalization.

I remember why I ignored you PrarieGuy.


----------



## bgc_fan

5Lgreenback said:


> I don't think I need to address the hypocrisy of BGC and others who claim its me who is not understanding the data.


That's fine, saves me from reading your messages, because you obviously don't understand. If you did, you could probably point out the flaws in my messages which you can't do, but welcomed to try.

Oh, still waiting for your response on how the Canada positivity rate is 1.6% when according to you everything is going to test positive.


----------



## damian13ster

Staph infections are caused by staphylococcus bacteria 
Staph infections can turn deadly if the bacteria invade deeper into your body, entering your bloodstream, joints, bones, lungs or heart.
Usually infection is from cuts and abrasions.
Maybe other members of family didn't have cuts that got infected?

You seriously are blaming a virus for staph infection


----------



## sags

The only relevant statistics regarding hospitalization and death are the ones of the Delta variant, since the Delta replaced the others.

The vaccines provided higher protection for the Alpha and weren't designed specifically for the Delta. The protection provided is lower.

It will be some time before the "long term" statistics for the Delta are available. All we have to go on now are the day to day case numbers.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Staph infections are caused by staphylococcus bacteria
> Staph infections can turn deadly if the bacteria invade deeper into your body, entering your bloodstream, joints, bones, lungs or heart.
> Usually infection is from cuts and abrasions.
> Maybe other members of family didn't have cuts that got infected?
> 
> You seriously are blaming a virus for staph infection


 ... and just how do you know that he received a cut? Or was that your assumption? Were you his doctor?


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... and just how do you know that he received a cut? Or was that your assumption? Were you his doctor?


That's why I said usually, and maybe.
I don't know how exactly he got bacterial infection. 
This is the most common method and it isn't transmissible.
Which is why a kid can die of staph infection while having virus in the organism, and rest of the family will not die from staph infection. 
And they didn't die from staph infection because they didn't have COVID. They didn't die from staph infection because they didn't have staph infection!
Jesus, the kind of things one needs to explain in 21st century........
There is zero indication whatsoever that COVID makes staph infections worse.

I am not the one trying to blame a death from staph infection on COVID. You are.
Go and continue your search for kids killed by COVID. This isn't such case


----------



## Beaver101

As a rebuttal to UkrainianDude that 1 in 340M is virtually zero or no "kids" die from Covid, here's a case closer to home:

ttps://toronto.ctvnews.ca/13-year-old-brampton-ont-girl-who-died-of-covid-19-passed-away-same-day-she-was-taken-to-hospital-1.5402183

Now don't tell me that she's technically not a kid as she's over age 12 and she had an underlying condition of being fat.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> That's why I said usually, and maybe.
> I don't know how exactly he got bacterial infection. He died from staph infection though.
> *There is zero indication whatsoever that COVID makes staph infections worse.*


 ... so I gather you're the medical expert who can determine that a staph infection, not Covid causes a "stroke"?



> I am not the one trying to blame a death from staph infection on COVID. You are.


 .. no, I'm blaming Covid for this kid's death. You're assuming that this kid's death is due to a staph infection, and not Covid. 


> Go and continue your search for kids killed by COVID. This isn't such case


 ... just posted another one (above post #3424), closer to home.


----------



## sags

Our city alone has had several kids die from COVID. I have read of many others in the news.

I think therein lies the underlying problem. Some posters formed their opinion and now seek out evidence that support them.......however feeble it may be.

If people's opinions haven't changed after the rise of the Delta variant, they are well behind the knowledge curve.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> why parents and grandmoms who are vaccinated get sick from unvaccinated kids?


First of all, our kids were able to get fully vaccinated before us (parents). Also, even full vaccination doesn't give you 100% protection, so if both parties are fully vaccinated, chance to get virus will be much lower.
Another reason, our kids were planning to travel internationally in August ...son wanted to go to Europe and daughter to Cuba ...


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> article


_where he was diagnosed with strep throat, a staph infection and COVID-19

Worldwide, the death toll is *estimated at 500 000 annually* (2). Those numbers include thousands of people who initially complained of a strep throat or injury-induced muscle pain and then rapidly declined and expired.


what is connection to Covid-19 here?_


----------



## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> I shouldn't even respond since you don't read the thread. We started off with the hospitalization, YOU then switched to death rate. Now YOU are switching back to hospitalization.
> 
> I remember why I ignored you PrarieGuy.


I notice it last night.... I started reading your arguments and notice that dude was comparing hospitalizations vs deaths  . So, I stopped reading


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> The only relevant statistics regarding hospitalization and death are the ones of the Delta variant


 Morbidly obese.
How kids in such young age can even get that fat. What are you feeding them?


----------



## gibor365

_Alberta’s top doctor says the majority of the province’s new COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations and deaths are among those who are unvaccinated or within two weeks of their first shot.
Dr. Deena Hinshaw, who is Alberta’s chief medical officer of health, said in a social media post that 96 per cent of Albertans who have tested positive for the virus since Jan. 1 hadn’t had two doses of vaccine._








Unvaccinated Albertans are majority of COVID cases, hospitalizations, deaths: Alberta's top doctor says


Alberta has one of the lowest rates of vaccination in the country, despite previously leading the way




nationalpost.com






_The outreach comes as COVID-19 cases have nearly tripled in the U.S. over the last two weeks, driven by the explosion of the new delta variant, e*specially in pockets of the country where vaccination rates are low.








While some U.S. Republicans push COVID-19 vaccine, experts warn it may be too late - National | Globalnews.ca


Republicans are under increasing pressure to speak out to persuade vaccine skeptics to take the shots as a new, more contagious variant sends caseloads soaring.




globalnews.ca





*_


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> _where he was diagnosed with strep throat, a staph infection and COVID-19
> 
> Worldwide, the death toll is *estimated at 500 000 annually* (2). Those numbers include thousands of people who initially complained of a strep throat or injury-induced muscle pain and then rapidly declined and expired.
> 
> 
> what is connection to Covid-19 here?_


 .. his parents as with his sibling got Covid too? So what's the connection between those with terminal cancer, fatal shot in the head and Covid? According to you and diamxxster, they all gonna die anyways, right?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> We started off with the hospitalization


Here is the data. Why even got vaccinated if you are in the certain risk group. 2/3 of Indians got naturally vaccinated I.e they had covid, and guess which variant they all had. Did their country collapsed?

By decade, the risk of hospitalization from infection with the new coronavirus is: Zero for kids under 10; 0.1% for kids 10 to 19; 1% for people aged 20 to 29; 3.4% for people aged 30 to 39; 4.3% for people in their 40s; 8.2% for those in their 50s; 11.8% for people aged 60 to 69; 16.6% for those in their 70s; and 18.4% for those in their 80s or above.

As for the death rate, the risk was near zero for people under 40, crept up to 0.2% for people 40 to 49, to 0.6% for 50-somethings, just under 2% for people in their 60s, 4.3% for those in their 70s, and 7.8% for those in their 80s, the findings showed.

add to this obesity and everything takes its place.

During March 1–30, underlying medical conditions and symptoms at admission were reported through COVID-NET for approximately 180 (12.1%) hospitalized adults (Table); 89.3% had one or more underlying conditions. The most commonly reported were hypertension (49.7%), obesity (48.3%), chronic lung disease (34.6%), diabetes mellitus (28.3%), and cardiovascular disease (27.8%).
Among patients aged 18–49 years, obesity was the most prevalent underlying condition, followed by chronic lung disease (primarily asthma) and diabetes mellitus. Among patients aged 50–64 years, obesity was most prevalent, followed by hypertension and diabetes mellitus; and among those aged ≥65 years, hypertension was most prevalent, followed by cardiovascular disease and diabetes mellitus.
according to CDC.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... so I gather you're the medical expert who can determine that a staph infection, not Covid causes a "stroke"?
> 
> .. no, I'm blaming Covid for this kid's death. You're assuming that this kid's death is due to a staph infection, and not Covid.
> ... just posted another one (above post #3424), closer to home.


Staph infection causes a stroke. 
Medical experts say so. info on this is readily available.

If the kid has all the symptoms of staph infection, is diagnosed with staph infection, then dies from a symptom of staph infection - then you are blaming COVID.
That is your choice, but there is no common sense to it.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> .. his parents as with his sibling got Covid too? So what's the connection between those with terminal cancer, fatal shot in the head and Covid? According to you and diamxxster, they all gonna die anyways, right?


No, jesus your reading comprehension sucks.

This is an example of someone clearly dying of other reasons while having virus in the body.
This example is same as the kid - he clearly died from other reasons while having virus in the body. What do his parents or siblings have to do with staph infection? They didn't get the bacteria in their bloodstream so they didn't die. What does that have to do with anything you are trying to say?

In both of those cases it is blatantly obvious, and neither of those cases is caused by COVID.
The problem - no-one will write an article about a kid dying from staph infection so they write an article about a kid dying from staph infection while having virus in his system.
That generates clicks.


----------



## Spudd

damian13ster said:


> That is useless statistic. The official policy is not to test vaccinated people. If you don't test - there are no cases.
> They only test if there are symptoms. They test unvaccinated close contacts. You would have to look at positivity rate of tests between vaccinated and unvaccinated people to correct for that massive influence on the data.


Show me where that official policy is?

They test everyone who requests a test, or is symptomatic enough to seek medical attention.


----------



## Spudd

Regarding Alberta supposedly cherry-picking their data, here's their graph over time:










https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-19-alberta-statistics.htm#vaccine-outcomes



On July 20, for example, 45 unvaccinated people were hospitalized while 8 fully vaccinated were hospitalized. You can hover your mouse over the graph on the webpage to see the various numbers for different dates. But it's pretty clear that vaccination works.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

damian13ster said:


> No, jesus your reading comprehension sucks.
> 
> This is an example of someone clearly dying of other reasons while having virus in the body.
> This example is same as the kid - he clearly died from other reasons while having virus in the body. What do his parents or siblings have to do with staph infection? They didn't get the bacteria in their bloodstream so they didn't die. What does that have to do with anything you are trying to say?
> 
> In both of those cases it is blatantly obvious, and neither of those cases is caused by COVID.
> The problem - no-one will write an article about a kid dying from staph infection so they write an article about a kid dying from staph infection while having virus in his system.
> That generates clicks.


^ This.

Theres been countless cases of people dying with covid, not from covid. But they all get counted as covid deaths (unless they are vaccinated perhaps?). This is data fraud, and fear mongering.

Now Canada is starting with the headlines and nonsense of the "pandemic of the unvaccinated". Its not, and its not unvaccinated who are the bad guys here. 

We should be fighting together for our rights and freedoms to destroy this corrupt agenda, not each other.


----------



## Spudd

5Lgreenback said:


> ^ This.
> 
> Theres been countless cases of people dying with covid, not from covid. But they all get counted as covid deaths (unless they are vaccinated perhaps?). This is data fraud, and fear mongering.
> 
> Now Canada is starting with the headlines and nonsense of the "pandemic of the unvaccinated". Its not, and its not unvaccinated who are the bad guys here.
> 
> We should be fighting together for our rights and freedoms to destroy this corrupt agenda, not each other.


LOL


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> Regarding Alberta supposedly cherry-picking their data, here's their graph over time:
> View attachment 21904
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-19-alberta-statistics.htm#vaccine-outcomes
> 
> 
> 
> On July 20, for example, 45 unvaccinated people were hospitalized while 8 fully vaccinated were hospitalized. You can hover your mouse over the graph on the webpage to see the various numbers for different dates. But it's pretty clear that vaccination works.


If it does work, its for a very brief period of time. IE UK and Israel falling apart, and it looks potentially like vaccinated people could be fairing worse than unvaccinated in the coming days. Certainly strange that low vax countries are doing just fine, as is India. We'll have to see what the data shows in the next few days and hope theres no censorship or manipulation.


----------



## Beaver101

5Lgreenback said:


> ^ This.
> 
> Theres been countless cases of people dying with covid, not from covid. But they all get counted as covid deaths (unless they are vaccinated perhaps?). This is data fraud, and fear mongering.
> 
> Now Canada is starting with the headlines and nonsense of the "pandemic of the unvaccinated". Its not, and its not unvaccinated who are the bad guys here.
> 
> *We should be fighting together for our rights and freedoms to destroy this corrupt agenda, not each other.*


Right. Am I glad to see this piece of news in my town:

UHN will require that unvaccinated employees test negative for COVID-19 before arriving at work


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> *No, jesus your reading comprehension sucks.*
> 
> This is an example of someone clearly dying of other reasons while having virus in the body.
> This example is same as the kid - he clearly died from other reasons while having virus in the body. What do his parents or siblings have to do with staph infection? They didn't get the bacteria in their bloodstream so they didn't die. What does that have to do with anything you are trying to say?
> 
> In both of those cases it is blatantly obvious, and neither of those cases is caused by COVID.
> The problem - no-one will write an article about a kid dying from staph infection so they write an article about a kid dying from staph infection while having virus in his system.
> *That generates clicks*.


 ... right, and so is conveniently skipping reading other real life clicks of kids do DIE FROM COVID.


----------



## damian13ster

Spudd said:


> Show me where that official policy is?
> 
> They test everyone who requests a test, or is symptomatic enough to seek medical attention.







__





COVID-19 Prevention & Protection | Alberta Health Services


Advice to help protect you and your family against all respiratory illnesses, including flu and COVID-19.




www.albertahealthservices.ca





Test required vs test required if symptoms developed.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... right, and so is conveniently skipping reading other real life clicks of kids do DIE FROM COVID.


I never said kids don't die.
I said kids die at miniscule numbers.
Same as miniscule numbers die from vaccines.
The risk between those two imho doesn't make vaccinations for this group a clear option. Think individual health condition should determine whether a kid gets one or not, simply because in large number of cases risk of complications from vaccines will exceed risk of complications from infection.


----------



## Beaver101

5Lgreenback said:


> LOL this is that reading comprehension again.





> Should I bother trying to explain what your missing? Hint- If vaccines were truly very effective, you wouldn't have any concerns about unvaccinated people.


 ... maybe you should be asking yourself that question. Hint: Since when was the claim that vaccines were "truly", "very" effective and by whom? Presumably you? 

You don't have to be concerned about me being vaccinated or me being concerned with the unvaccinateds ... just continue to concern yourself that your rights are being violated with the voluntary jab.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> I never said kids don't die.
> I said kids die at miniscule numbers.


 ... my posts were rebuttal to Ukrainiandude's mathematical expertise of "virtually zero" risk as being "no risk" as being "no deaths" of kids ... when you decided to jump on his bandwagon.



> Same as miniscule numbers die from vaccines.
> The risk between those two imho doesn't make vaccinations for this group a clear option. Think individual health condition should determine whether a kid gets one or not, simply because in large number of cases risk of complications from vaccines will exceed risk of complications from infection.


 ... I'm not the vaccine producers so can't say it would work for kids. Just that kids can and do die from Covid.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Beaver101 said:


> ... maybe you should be asking yourself that question. Hint: Since when was the claim that vaccines were "truly", "very" effective and by whom? Presumably you?
> 
> You don't have to be concerned about me being vaccinated or me being concerned with the unvaccinateds ... just continue to concern yourself that your rights are being violated with the voluntary jab.


Umm, so your admitting these vaccines aren't very effective? gotcha.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

New data from Israel and the United Kingdom painted a confusing and contradictory picture on Thursday as to the effectiveness of Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine in fighting off the Delta variant of the coronavirus.

New Health Ministry statistics indicated that, on average, the Pfizer shot — the vaccine given to nearly all Israelis — is now just 39% effective against infection, while being only 41% effective in preventing symptomatic COVID. Previously, the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was well over 90% effective against infection.

Meanwhile, a new UK study published this week in The New England Journal of Medicine found the same vaccine to be 88% effective in preventing symptomatic COVID — more than twice the rate found in the Israeli data.


Israel’s research agreed, at least, that the shot was highly effective in avoiding serious illness, at 91.4% effectiveness.

and Britain with its high vaccination rates just had the same number of cases and deaths (approximately per million) as India with low vaccination rates.


----------



## damian13ster

Yes, people do die struck by lighting
People have also died by getting hit by meteorite.
People have died in every single imaginable reasons, and most likely also reasons you can't even imagine.
It is all about odds though. Just because someone died getting hit by meteorite, doesn't mean you should stay entire life in a bunker - even if risk is not zero.

Hence the word 'virtually' - which is not the same as word 'absolutely'


----------



## Beaver101

5Lgreenback said:


> Umm, so your admitting these vaccines aren't very effective? gotcha.


 ... I'm not admitting anything nor admitted anything. You were the one claiming these vaccines aren't "truly", "very" effective when the vaccines producers don't even make those claims. So what are you catching? Yourself?


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Yes, people do die struck by lighting
> People have also died by getting hit by meteorite.
> People have died in every single imaginable reasons, and most likely also reasons you can't even imagine.
> It is all about odds though. Just because someone died getting hit by meteorite, doesn't mean you should stay entire life in a bunker - even if risk is not zero.


 ... and so? Since my comprehension sucks, does this mean your odds of catching Covid increases if you get vaccinated? 



> Hence the word 'virtually' - which is not the same as word 'absolutely'


 ... 2+ real-life examples does not make it virtually (or even close to) zero, if not absolutely zero. And I'm not the mathematical expert.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Ukrainiandude said:


> New data from Israel and the United Kingdom painted a confusing and contradictory picture on Thursday as to the effectiveness of Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine in fighting off the Delta variant of the coronavirus.
> 
> New Health Ministry statistics indicated that, on average, the Pfizer shot — the vaccine given to nearly all Israelis — is now just 39% effective against infection, while being only 41% effective in preventing symptomatic COVID. Previously, the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was well over 90% effective against infection.
> 
> Meanwhile, a new UK study published this week in The New England Journal of Medicine found the same vaccine to be 88% effective in preventing symptomatic COVID — more than twice the rate found in the Israeli data.
> 
> 
> Israel’s research agreed, at least, that the shot was highly effective in avoiding serious illness, at 91.4% effectiveness.
> 
> and Britain with its high vaccination rates just had the same number of cases and deaths (approximately per million) as India with low vaccination rates.



And a look at the data itself, separately from the Israel media headlines and articles, shows the those 39% and 41% are quite optimistic.

BTW- I'm seeing guys getting deleted off instagram and twitter for simply posting PUBLICLY AVAILABLE DATA (our world data, Johns Hopkins etc)

Great world we find ourselves in today folks. Government/ big tech allied censorship will most certainly end well for everyone!


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... and so? Since my comprehension sucks, does this mean your odds of catching Covid increases if you get vaccinated?
> 
> ... 2+ real-life examples does not make it virtually (or even close to) zero, if not absolutely zero. And I'm not the mathematical expert.


On the first point, I never claimed it does. Never claimed that odds of catching Covid increases if you get vaccinated. That would be absurd.

And yes, 2+ (although you provided one, staph infection is not COVID) out of 8,139,512 people under 19 in Canada is 'virtually' zero.
To be exact it is 0.0000002457.
I guess since your definition of 'virtually zero' might be different I am not going to argue with you here, but claiming that 0.0000002457 is virtually zero is not outrageous by any means.


----------



## sags

Fake news gets deleted from social media platforms ? That is a good thing.

CMF should be more active in doing the same.


----------



## sags

The fake news people know that oddball conspiracy websites aren't taken seriously, so they invade legitimate websites and forums to control discussion.

It is important for members to call out fake news, lest the invaders be allowed to turn the website into a cesspool of fake news.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Fake news gets deleted from social media platforms ? That is a good thing.
> 
> CMF should be more active in doing the same.


Then again, if anyone is taking the bull**** written on social media seriously, they are a fool. Or the they should carefully consider which poster is writing the info because it's usually pretty clear who has a well established history of providing reliable information.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> On the first point, I never claimed it does. Never claimed that odds of catching Covid increases if you get vaccinated. That would be absurd.


 ... I'm being factitious there since you said my comprehension sucks. Of course not. The whole idea of getting vaccinated is to reduce your odds of "dying".



> And yes, 2+ (although you provided one, staph infection is not COVID) out of 8,139,512 people under 19 in Canada is 'virtually' zero.
> To be exact it is 0.0000002457.
> I guess since your definition of 'virtually zero' might be different I am not going to argue with you here, but claiming that 0.0000002457 is virtually zero is not outrageous by any means.


 ... well to me, posting "0.0000002457" by someone who claimed has taken math at a better school (not here in Canada, ie. mathematically-sound on data) to make a claim that this equates to being as "virtually zero" is not exactly precise. 

And then there is the real-life examples, not just my 2 but also those from sag's (though he didn't provide the links) gives it the 2+ so it's expanding from the virtually zero.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> *Then again, if anyone is taking the bull**** written on social media seriously, they are a fool. *Or the they should carefully consider which poster is writing the info because it's usually pretty clear who has a well established history of providing reliable information.


 ... that's why I don't read FakeBook (most notorious), Twitter (the Dump turnoff), Instagrams (waste of time), and the whole 9 yards there since they're full of those.


----------



## bgc_fan

sags said:


> The fake news people know that oddball conspiracy websites aren't taken seriously, so they invade legitimate websites and forums to control discussion.
> 
> It is important for members to call out fake news, lest the invaders be allowed to turn the website into a cesspool of fake news.


Well, there is this nice thread for that: Non mainstream COVID info

Perhaps the moderators would like to move some of the alternative news messages to that thread.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Dr Peter McCullough gets interviewed on youtube, showing how he published a peer reviewed paper on early treatment for covid19, and that doctors around the world downloaded the protocol in record numbers. Reports in reduction of hospitalizations and death 80-95% from various doctors and groups using the protocol. 

He's trying to get the word out on how to save lives for christ sake, video got removed by youtube months ago. 

Its not about saving lives I guess, its about control and injections.

According to some, doctors with ethics who save lives these days are "conspiracy theorists".


----------



## Ukrainiandude

People finely starting coming back to their senses.
Saskatchewan schools will be returning to normal this fall as COVID-19restrictions will no longer be in place for the 2021-22 school year.









This means schools will not be required to have a masking policy in place or physical distancing measures.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Not really big difference between in hospitalization and the death rates from delta variant among people under 50 .


----------



## 5Lgreenback

FDA announces the CDC PCR tests failed its full review. EUA is being revoked. Class 1 recall.

_"CDC encourages laboratories to consider adoption of a multiplexed method that *can facilitate detection and differentiation of SARS-CoV-2 and influenza viruses*."_





__





Lab Alert: Changes to CDC RT-PCR for SARS-CoV-2 Testing


CDC - OPHSS - CSELS - Division of Laboratory Systems (DLS)




www.cdc.gov





I wonder how many people had their posts or accounts deleted for telling the truth about this for the past year?

But the bad news is Gates and Soros bought a UK company for testing covid, and if this becomes the new standard for testing covid the manipulation and lies will only get worse. Conspiracy?









George Soros And Bill Gates’ Backed Consortium To Buy U.K. Maker Of Covid Tests For $41 Million


Philanthropists invest in testing technology to help stop the spread of the virus across the global south.




www.forbes.com


----------



## Beaver101

Toronto Pearson Airport begins separating arrivals based on vaccination status

_



... Pearson isn’t the first Canadian airport to implement this strategy. Vancouver International Airport has also begun separating arrivals by vaccination status, installing signs directing vaccinated and non- or partially- vaccinated travellers into separate customs lines.

Click to expand...

 ... _from article above.

I wonder what the exemptions will be for unvaccinated (and partially vaxxed) visitors after August 9th, especially from the USA.


----------



## sags

Beaver101 said:


> Toronto Pearson Airport begins separating arrivals based on vaccination status
> 
> _ ... _from article above.
> 
> I wonder what the exemptions will be for unvaccinated (and partially vaxxed) visitors after August 9th, especially from the USA.


I wonder how border guards establish the veracity of vaccination records, which can be easily downloaded from the internet and printed.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> I wonder how border guards establish the veracity of vaccination records, which can be easily downloaded from the internet and printed.


 .. here's the link to the protocols:

Government of Canada announces easing of border measures for fully vaccinated travellers - Canada.ca




> *Quick Facts*





> _To be eligible to enter Canada for discretionary travel on the basis of vaccination status, travellers must use the ArriveCAN app or web portal. Travellers must ensure that mandatory requirements are met prior to departing for Canada. In addition, some provinces and territories may have their own entry restrictions in place. Check and follow *both* the federal and any provincial or territorial restrictions and requirements before travelling._
> _In addition to receiving a full series of a vaccine authorized by the Government of Canada, fully vaccinated travellers *must also:* provide COVID-19-related information electronically through ArriveCAN (app or web portal) including proof of vaccination prior to arrival in Canada; meet the pre-entry testing requirements; be asymptomatic upon arrival; and have a paper or digital copy of their vaccination documentation in English or French (or certified translation) ready to show a government official on request as evidence._
> _A person who submits false information on vaccination status could be liable to a fine of up to $750,000 or six months imprisonment or both, under the Quarantine Act, or prosecution under the Criminal Code for forgery. Violating any quarantine or isolation instructions provided to travellers by a screening officer or quarantine officer when entering Canada is also an offence under the Quarantine Act and could lead to a $5,000 fine for each day of non-compliance or for each offence committed, or more serious penalties, including six months in prison and/or $750,000 in fines. Non-compliant air travellers may also be subject to fines of up to $5,000 for each offence committed under the __Aeronautics Act._


I'm sure the info that inputted into the ArriveCAN will be verified or subject to spot-checking verification. And if that info doesn't match or is off/don't jive with the Fed's database, then a red flag will be raised. 

A $5K fine per day is a nice deterrent for noncompliance, never mind about up to $750K or 6 mths in jail for falsification.


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> I wonder how border guards establish the veracity of vaccination records, which can be easily downloaded from the internet and printed.


This is fraud and he sentence can be up to 14 years and you could lose your travel privileges. Not a risk the vast majority will ever risk. Criminals will be criminals and I don't know of any law that has bas been successful in banning criminals or criminal conduct. Do we let a few outliers take away our freedoms ? that would be a backward way of approaching policy. Using your logic because some people choose to drive a motor vehicle while impaired we should ban all motor vehicles.


----------



## Eder

Beaver101 said:


> I'm sure the info that inputted into the ArriveCAN will be verified or subject to spot-checking verification. And if that info doesn't match or is off/don't jive with the Fed's database, then a red flag will be raised.


The Fed hardly has a database. When I got my vaccine in Hawaii I only had to give my name...no phone number/ SIN # , address or anything. All that info was optional.


----------



## moderator2

Everyone: please keep the thread on the vaccine topic.

I am moving conspiracy theory style posts to the Non mainstream COVID thread.


----------



## moderator2

5Lgreenback said:


> Gates and Soros bought a UK company for testing covid


Looks like very nice contributions from Gates and Soros to help prevent the spread of disease. Bill Gates has been funding all kinds of work to fight horrible diseases around the world, for quite a few years now. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## zinfit

Eder said:


> The Fed hardly has a database. When I got my vaccine in Hawaii I only had to give my name...no phone number/ SIN # , address or anything. All that info was optional.


mine vaccinations were registered in the Texas state immunization record. I received a official statement. This is in addition to a CDC card that was completed for both shots. It include lot number for the vaccines I received. Surely this should more then adequate in satisfying Arrrive Canada.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

I posted a chart of publicly available data from Czech Republic showing the trend in cases, overlaid with the sharp drop in cases as ivermectin became available. It got removed/moved?

I could post the same for numerous other places around the world showing sharp drops in cases and deaths once Ivermectin becomes protocol. But the overwhelming amount of data that contradicts the agenda is "conspiracy". 

Gotcha.


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> The Fed hardly has a database. When I got my vaccine in Hawaii I only had to give my name...no phone number/ SIN # , address or anything. All that info was optional.


 ... and when was that? in 2020?


----------



## sags

The CDC issues a vaccination record, but they don't keep records of them in a database, so there is no way to verify the certificates except possibly to call the location where the vaccine was administered. They may not keep records either. Fake CDC records have been sold on the internet and even on Amazon.

Canada has no similar certificate and all we have is paper records from the local health authority.

It appears the US wants a more secure vaccine record and talks are taking place for Canada to have a registry in place by December.

Like it or not, I think there will eventually be a central vaccine registry used by all countries.

Generally it is the US that sets the rules and everyone else follows along.


----------



## Eder

Beaver101 said:


> ... and when was that? in 2020?


In April, my wife got hers in February...no requirement other than her name as well. The low info requests I think are to encourage the homeless & drifters to get vaxxed. Most have nothing other than their name. After living on the boat for most of the year I fit right in I guess. I assume its the same in many other States, so there will be millions with CDC cards but no further record.


----------



## Beaver101

^ So both of you are saying basically, "our" Feds are taking visitors' words that they have been fully vaccinated? Duh if not assininely dumb.


----------



## sags

Pretty much until the vaccine passport registry is developed.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Isn't it amazing that anyone can have ebola, gonorrhoea, hepatitis, flu etc etc and cross borders and future domestic barriers no problem.

But if I don't have a record for a very ineffective injection (that doesn't even prevent transmission) for covid 19, which is now just a cold for most people, I can be denied freedoms and liberties. 

"It's easier to fool someone, that to convince them they've been fooled".


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ^ So both of you are saying basically, "our" Feds are taking visitors' words that they have been fully vaccinated? Duh if not assininely dumb.


So what do you suggest people who got vaccine in places that didn't update the official records do?
Take 3rd and 4th dose just so they can go to restaurant or concert hall?


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> ^ So both of you are saying basically, "our" Feds are taking visitors' words that they have been fully vaccinated? Duh if not assininely dumb.


you have to upload your vaccine records with Arrive Canada before your departure. Even Trudeau isn't that stupid.


----------



## sags

Arrive Canada doesn't verify vaccination records.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> So what do you suggest people who got vaccine in places that didn't update the official records do?
> Take 3rd and 4th dose just so they can go to restaurant or concert hall?


Stay home.


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> Arrive Canada doesn't verify vaccination records.


it is a criminal offence to provide false information or fraudulent documents. Not a smart move. That is a possibility with every document. Do we shut everything down because one idiot of 1000 . Perfection doesn't happen in this world. We are supposed to be living in a free country. Before we lose sleep over this possibility who is tracking the people at home who have tested positive or xhaven'tbeen vaccinated? seriously its a matter of priorities. If you want to live in a state of personal lockdown find a boat and migrate to Australia.


----------



## Eder

Beaver101 said:


> ^ So both of you are saying basically, "our" Feds are taking visitors' words that they have been fully vaccinated? Duh if not assininely dumb.


Why would I lie? If you are vaccinated why would you worry?


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Stay home.


No. Not willing to lose 2 years of my life being scared of my own shadow.
I was fine with 3 week lockdown to stop the spread. Well, that turned out to be completely ineffective.
Now is the time to enjoy life


----------



## sags

zinfit said:


> it is a criminal offence to provide false information or fraudulent documents. Not a smart move. That is a possibility with every document. Do we shut everything down because one idiot of 1000 . Perfection doesn't happen in this world. We are supposed to be living in a free country. Before we lose sleep over this possibility who is tracking the people at home who have tested positive or xhaven'tbeen vaccinated? seriously its a matter of priorities. If you want to live in a state of personal lockdown find a boat and migrate to Australia.


You haven't explained how they would get caught if there is no way to verify the documents.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> You haven't explained how they would get caught if there is no way to verify the documents.


I feel pretty good about the US documents... I think we can be pretty well assured that passengers from the US are vaccinated because of that CDC card.

I'm more concerned about the other countries but also about all the various loopholes in travel. There are loopholes that allow non vaccinated people to enter Canada as well.


----------



## sags

The situation is not progressing as forecast. The US vaccination rate has stalled out at 50% and likely won't get much higher.

The White House says they won't reopen the border until there is a much higher vaccination rate on the advice of Homeland Security etc.

Applying pressure on the US, as recommended by some, is a non starter. The US told Canada "our country and our rules" already and aren't going to change.

So air flight to the US should remain but I wouldn't make plans around land crossings.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> The White House says they won't reopen the border until there is a much higher vaccination rate on the advice of Homeland Security etc.


Americans are doing the right thing with their land border. It's too dangerous to allow any yahoo from Canada to go into US regions that are already struggling with outbreaks.

For example I believe vaccination rates aren't so high in rural Alberta and Manitoba, so that would pose a danger to the neighbouring US states.


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> Why would I lie? If you are vaccinated why would you worry?


 ... you might not lie but any anti-vaxxer desperate enough to come to this country (for whatever reason, including the up-to-no-good which wouldn't be "rare" either) would. 

And then you might also want to ask our Feds why are they bothering with segregating vaccinated and non-vaccinated/partially vaccinated come August 9th. Seems like a mickey-do-mouse-taxes(Canadian)-wasting-exercise to me if it's on an honour systems.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> No. Not willing to lose 2 years of my life being scared of my own shadow.
> I was fine with 3 week lockdown to stop the spread. Well, that turned out to be completely ineffective.
> Now is the time to enjoy life


 ... no one is stopping you.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> So air flight to the US should remain but I wouldn't make plans around land crossings.


 The USA Canada border is a symbolic one, 95% of it is unguarded, can be crossed in numerous locations.
Do you remember the influx of refugees from the states to Canada? 99% of them were not apprehended.


----------



## sags

Great.....you can fly to the US and come back to Canada forest ninja style.


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> You haven't explained how they would get caught if there is no way to verify the documents.


Each state maintains a registery


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> Each state maintains a registery


And you think the states or countries are willing to, or legally allowed, to share the health data of its citizens with foreign governments?


----------



## sags

Some people have a mortal fear of needles or anything to do with clinics or hospitals. They suffer high level anxiety and can pass out just thinking about it.

It isn't the needle these people worry about. It is fainting and possibly hurting themselves and the embarrassment caused by it.

I think a drive thru clinic would be able to increase vaccinations. It shouldn't be that difficult to set up.


----------



## bgc_fan

sags said:


> I think a drive thru clinic would be able to increase vaccinations. It shouldn't be that difficult to set up.


It's been done in Ottawa: Ottawa family doctors vaccinate hundreds at drive-thru clinic

At this point, it's really a matter of people not wanting to vaccinate. I think there have been a lot of initiatives that were undertaken to reach out to the community to get their vaccines. In Toronto, the Scotiabank Place had their biggest crowd during the playoffs: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...accine-clinic-north-american-record-1.6082606. We can also make the jokes about it being the largest crowd that late into the playoffs.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> At this point, it's really a matter of people not wanting to vaccinate.


 Because it doesn’t make sense for people under 50 years old.
I have posted a British study, the risk of death identical and the risk of hospitalization was slightly higher for unvaccinated (but doctors also were Making the decision based on vaccination status, so subjective here).
Get all people over 50 vaccinated and live the rest alone, they don’t need it.


----------



## bgc_fan

Not the most conventional public outreach program, but it looks as the mother of a person who died of covid (46 years old) was able to convince some funeral attendees to get the vaccine. After son dies of COVID, mother holds vaccine drive at his funeral


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> a person who died of covid


No wonder why.
He did not tell his friends all the underlying health conditions he had. He had a bad heart. He had lung problems, COPD," she said.


----------



## Spudd

5Lgreenback said:


> FDA announces the CDC PCR tests failed its full review. EUA is being revoked. Class 1 recall.
> 
> _"CDC encourages laboratories to consider adoption of a multiplexed method that *can facilitate detection and differentiation of SARS-CoV-2 and influenza viruses*."_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lab Alert: Changes to CDC RT-PCR for SARS-CoV-2 Testing
> 
> 
> CDC - OPHSS - CSELS - Division of Laboratory Systems (DLS)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how many people had their posts or accounts deleted for telling the truth about this for the past year?
> 
> But the bad news is Gates and Soros bought a UK company for testing covid, and if this becomes the new standard for testing covid the manipulation and lies will only get worse. Conspiracy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Soros And Bill Gates’ Backed Consortium To Buy U.K. Maker Of Covid Tests For $41 Million
> 
> 
> Philanthropists invest in testing technology to help stop the spread of the virus across the global south.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com


This is false. The CDC requested the CDC-created test be revoked because there are multiple other PCR tests on the market that can be used. Look at this page, it lists all the various PCR tests that are authorized. 








In Vitro Diagnostics EUAs - Molecular Diagnostic Tests for SARS-CoV-2


In Vitro Diagnostics EUAs - Molecular Diagnostic Tests for SARS-CoV-2




www.fda.gov


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> Not really big difference between in hospitalization and the death rates from delta variant among people under 50 .
> 
> View attachment 21906


Firstly, please start providing links when you post stuff. It's hard to track down the sources you used without a link.

Here's the link to the chart you posted above:


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1001354/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_17.pdf



Secondly, I don't see how you can glean from this chart that the death rates in <50 are comparable between vaccinated and unvaccinated. Without knowing how many people in that age range are vaccinated these raw numbers are basically meaningless. 

Later on in the same PDF, on page 39, they do list the effectiveness of the vaccine against the Delta variant. They say it is 96% effective against hospitalization.


----------



## sags

Ukrainiandude said:


> No wonder why.
> He did not tell his friends all the underlying health conditions he had. He had a bad heart. He had lung problems, COPD," she said.


A lot of people have an underlying health issue of some kind, and many may not even be aware of it.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> They say it is 96% effective against hospitalization.


I want vaccines that are 95% effective against getting sick.


----------



## MrBlackhill

_Wrote this in another thread, but it's in this thread that I wanted to post it._

I don't know if it has been mentioned already, but in Quebec there's a contest for vaccinated people. To win, 4 prices of $150,000 and 1 price of $1M (for doubled vaccinated people). Teens of age 12-17 can also participate for a chance to win one of the 8 scholarship of $10,000 and one of the 16 scholarship of $20,000 (for doubled vaccinated people).

There's already 360,000 subscriptions within the first 24h and the site is down, haha.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> A lot of people have an underlying health issue of some kind, and many may not even be aware of it.


Yeah, but he knew he had COPD


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrBlackhill said:


> chance to win


Chance to win for the young people is similar to die from Covid.


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> I want vaccines that are 95% effective against getting sick.


That's unrealistic. The flu shot doesn't provide any where near that level of protection, and yet it's an effective shot which saves lives every year and lessens the severity.


----------



## james4beach

Spudd said:


> Later on in the same PDF, on page 39, they do list the effectiveness of the vaccine against the Delta variant. They say it is 96% effective against hospitalization.


Thanks Spudd, you found the important part.

So there we go. These vaccines are extremely effective against even the Delta variant. Let's hope we don't get another crazy mutation (I still see this as the biggest risk for this winter).


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> I want vaccines that are 95% effective against getting sick.


We all want that, but at least they are 79% effective against getting sick for Delta variant. (following chart also from page 39 in the PDF you used as source)


----------



## MrBlackhill

Ukrainiandude said:


> Chance to win for the young people is similar to die from Covid.


Well, the Lotto 6/49 has 1 in 14,000,000 to win the grand prize and there may no winner or more than one winner, splitting the prize.

In Quebec, there's about 4,000,000 fully vaccinated people and not all of them will participate. There's a guaranteed single winner for every prize. So the $1M prize currently has at least 1 in 4,000,000 chance to win, while each $150k have at least 1 in 6,000,000 chance to win.

I like it, since it's free to participate (I never buy lottery), unless you believe that being vaccinated is an expensive cost.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrBlackhill said:


> being vaccinated is an expensive cost.


It might cost you in the future from currently unknown side effects.
Remember that vaccine is the experimental one, thus in my opinion only high risk population (overaged and with known conditions) should get vaccinated. There’s really no need to experiment on 12 year old kids.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> No wonder why.
> He did not tell his friends all the underlying health conditions he had. He had a bad heart. He had lung problems, COPD," she said.


 ... and yet he was alive with COPD, bad heart plus whatever underlying health conditions prior (aka before) getting infected with Covid. So basically Covid did him in or what other excuses do you have other than the guy is going to die "eventually" anyways from all these other health conditions?


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> That's unrealistic. The flu shot doesn't provide any where near that level of protection, and yet it's an effective shot which saves lives every year and lessens the severity.


 ... unrealistic for the general population (okay call us sheep) but very realistic for conspiracists. 

If UKrainedude wants a vaccine with 95% protection (beats me how precise UKdude got that % to be), then wait for it in another year or 2 or 5 or possibly forever. Meanwhile the sheep population moves on.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> It might cost you in the future from currently unknown side effects.


 ... and what may those side effects be? In the future?

Btw, again are you a time traveller?



> Remember that vaccine is the experimental one, thus in my opinion only high risk population (overaged and with known conditions) should get vaccinated.


 . .. remember the vaccine is "voluntary" for "all" age groups. 



> There’s really no need to experiment on 12 year old kids.


 ... tell that to the parents with kids. Do they want to listen to you and take a chance of their kids catching Covid (never mind about passing it) with the possibility of getting very sick + dying by skipping the vaccine. I bet not (with exception of anti-vaxxers, of course).


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver are you trying to troll me? Because I am not interested.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Beaver are you trying to troll me? Because I am not interested.


 ... no, I'm just responding to your repeated assertions (aka interest) that the vaccine is experimental at this point.

And yes, I'm serious if you're a time traveller because you're always referring to the "future" ... maybe you know something there that I/we don't. Mind you I'm only interested in positive forecasts.


----------



## bgc_fan

Looks like anti-vaxxers are getting more deliberate in their misinformation spreading about Pfizer vaccine. Apparently they have a PR firm to handle their campaign... a PR firm based in Russia and UK.








The YouTubers who blew the whistle on an anti-vax plot


A mysterious marketing agency secretly offered to pay social media stars to spread disinformation about Covid-19 vaccines



www.bbc.com





A bit more about Fazze: Exclusive: Meet The Murky Russian Network Behind An Anti-Pfizer Disinformation Drive In Europe

I wonder if all those communist-fearing, heartland-type American anti-vaxxers realize that they're doing Russia's work to discredit the West, so that Russia can work on their vaccination diplomacy.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> Looks like anti-vaxxers are getting more deliberate in their misinformation spreading about Pfizer vaccine. Apparently they have a PR firm to handle their campaign... a PR firm based in Russia and UK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The YouTubers who blew the whistle on an anti-vax plot
> 
> 
> A mysterious marketing agency secretly offered to pay social media stars to spread disinformation about Covid-19 vaccines
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A bit more about Fazze: Exclusive: Meet The Murky Russian Network Behind An Anti-Pfizer Disinformation Drive In Europe
> 
> I wonder if all those communist-fearing, heartland-type American anti-vaxxers realize that they're doing Russia's work to discredit the West, so that Russia can work on their vaccination diplomacy.


Why is everything partisan?
Maybe people hold an opinion and want to express it, without giving a **** whether that opinion is held by dictators in Russia, Canada, US, or any other place in the world?
What happened with researching information, facts, and forming your own opinion rather than being told what to believe by others?

Jesus, the us vs them mentality is idiotic


----------



## bgc_fan

Here's a short math article when it comes to vaccinations. Right now, those being hospitalized are overwhelmingly unvaccinated. As the population increases its percentage of vaccinated, the percentage will gradually swing the other way... it's nothing nefarious, it's just basic math. While most realize this, some don't. Especially when you realize at that point, the overall number of hospitalizations will be lower. 




__





Subscribe to read | Financial Times


News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




www.ft.com


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> What happened with researching information, facts, and forming your own opinion rather than being told what to believe by others?


Well, if you are consuming misinformation to form your opinions, then you should realize that. It's all part of critical thinking, you know, find out the source of your information. If the information you're being fed is specifically constructed so that you don't have confidence in Western science. I mean it's fine if you want to be fed Russian information and believe that instead of science. That's your choice, but not everyone will realize that.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> Well, if you are consuming misinformation to form your opinions, then you should realize that. It's all part of critical thinking, you know, find out the source of your information. If the information you're being fed is specifically constructed so that you don't have confidence in Western science. I mean it's fine if you want to be fed Russian information and believe that instead of science. That's your choice, but not everyone will realize that.


The problem is who is the one that judges what is fake and what is not?
During past year there were multiple instances of US and Canadian governments, social media titans being blatantly wrong on the subject.
A person just has to use their own brain and verify from multiple sources. 
In recent years the quality of information coming from Canadian or US government hasn't been any higher than from any other country. 
That's why one needs to check multiple sources. Ignore the narrative and look into data.
Even in scientific studies raw data is published. Analyzing it yourself rather than reading commentary, which is politically influenced, is the only way to go.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> The problem is who is the one that judges what is fake and what is not?
> During past year there were multiple instances of US and Canadian governments, social media titans being blatantly wrong on the subject.
> A person just has to use their own brain and verify from multiple sources.
> In recent years the quality of information coming from Canadian or US government hasn't been any higher than from any other country.
> That's why one needs to check multiple sources. Ignore the narrative and look into data.
> Even in scientific studies raw data is published. Analyzing it yourself rather than reading commentary, which is politically influenced, is the only way to go.


Interesting, I would never thought I'd find someone defending blatant Russian propaganda, but here we are.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> Interesting, I would never thought I'd find someone defending blatant Russian propaganda, but here we are.


Please. quote where I am defending Russian propaganda?
I am literally saying that I don't look at any propaganda, or any narratives.
Dig into actual, unredacted data and get your own conclusions


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> Please. quote where I am defending Russian propaganda?
> I am literally saying that I don't look at any propaganda, or any narratives.
> Dig into actual, unredacted data and get your own conclusions


The fact that you seemed to get all worked up with the fact that I pointed out that Russia is putting out a campaign of misinformation, and your response is, "it's all good, doesn't matter what the source of the information comes from, except from the US and Canadian government, that's clearly all bad".


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> The fact that you seemed to get all worked up with the fact that I pointed out that Russia is putting out a campaign of misinformation, and your response is, "it's all good, doesn't matter what the source of the information comes from, except from the US and Canadian government, that's clearly all bad".


You have reading comprehension issue.
I never disputed the fact that Russia has a campaign of disinformation.
I agree with that statement, you already made it, so what is the point for me writing it again?
There is also plenty of misinformation from US and Canadian government for example - whether accidentally due to lack of knowledge or through malicious intent.
That issue you never raised so I did.

The statement you put in quotes (I am not sure why, it isn't a quote) is nowhere close to what I said.

I will reiterate. Governments put out misleading information. Media puts out misleading information. They have agendas, mostly based on sensationalism, politics, or click-bait.
Therefore only way to form an informed opinion that is not influenced by misinformation is to look at raw data, learn statistics, confidence intervals, etc. and interpret the raw data by yourself.


----------



## sags

Assuming people are capable of analysing data........of course.

Many people assume they can easily do it, without the pre-requisite education, training, or experience required for such a task.

The end result is often citing nuggets of information that appear to support their pre-existing personal bias.

Data analysis is best left to the experts.

Just pay heed to the world renowned experts like Dr. Anthony Fauci and other top level scientists are saying......to learn the best information available.

They are all saying the same thing. The un-vaccinated are creating a world of hurt for themselves, and the virus must be contained or everyone else will suffer.

Vaccinate...wear a mask...avoid all gatherings...and hope a new variant doesn't rise from where the virus is still spreading without abatement.


----------



## damian13ster

That's up to individual to decide what they are capable of, or what skills they are willing to work on to acquire.
Luckily I have a background in analytics, as well as spent considerable amount of time furthering education on the subject.
Of course one still picks and choose what topic is relevant enough to make time investment necessary for the analysis.
If one decides not to put in work to look at raw data, then one needs to realize what they are hearing is someone's opinion and interpretation of that data, not facts.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> I will reiterate. Governments put out misleading information. Media puts out misleading information. They have agendas, mostly based on sensationalism, politics, or click-bait.
> Therefore only way to form an informed opinion that is not influenced by misinformation is to look at raw data, learn statistics, confidence intervals, etc. and interpret the raw data by yourself.


Fair enough. The problem is that doesn't happen often, and you see that on this forum. Posters immediately say, "mainstream media, disregard", or when you present points to counter, their response is "look at this other Youtube video", which has nothing to do with the original point.


----------



## sags

There is a quantum difference between analysing the data for your personal decisions and possessing the pre-requisite knowledge base to advise others.

I have no doubt that Dr. Fauci has forgotten more than you will ever know about viruses, data, and everything else that is relevant.

When Senator Rand Paul, a trained but unlicensed eye doctor, questions Dr. Fauci's knowledge on COVID......it is laughable merely on the premise.

Unfortunately it also reveals how gullible a lot of people are to misinformation and fake news.









Was Rand Paul Certified as an Ophthalmologist by a Board He Created?


The Kentucky senator’s medical qualifications came under a microscope in a meme.




www.snopes.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Interesting fact that in the USA where majority of cases are delta, no child mortality is seen.
Either the USA kids are under diagnosed or Indonesian ones are over diagnosed.

Hundreds of children in Indonesia have died from the coronavirus in recent weeks, many of them under age 5, a mortality rate greater than that of any other country and one that challenges the idea that children face minimal risk from Covid-19, doctors say.

The deaths, more than 100 a week this month, have come as Indonesia confronts its biggest surge yet in coronavirus cases over all — and as its leaders face mounting criticism that they have been unprepared and slow to act.
Based on reports from pediatricians, children now make up 12.5 percent of the country’s confirmed cases, an increase over previous months, said Dr. Aman, executive director of the pediatric association. More than 150 children died from Covid-19 during the week of July 12 alone, he said, with half the recent deaths involving those younger than 5.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> There is a quantum difference between analysing the data for your personal decisions and possessing the pre-requisite knowledge base to advise others.
> 
> I have no doubt that Dr. Fauci has forgotten more than you will ever know about viruses, data, and everything else that is relevant.
> 
> When Senator Rand Paul, a trained but unlicensed eye doctor, questions Dr. Fauci's knowledge on COVID......it is laughable merely on the premise.
> 
> Unfortunately it also reveals how gullible a lot of people are to misinformation and fake news.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Was Rand Paul Certified as an Ophthalmologist by a Board He Created?
> 
> 
> The Kentucky senator’s medical qualifications came under a microscope in a meme.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snopes.com


There is also no doubt that Fauci has a lot of political agenda and lots of powers having influence over him.
Not many people are questioning knowledge of Fauci. People are questioning ethics. 
They aren't ignoring his knowledge, they are questioning his advice.
Those are completely different things

You have to be pretty gullible to not realize that there is a world of difference between what a person knows and what a person says or does, based on external forces and internal motivation of said person. That applies to absolutely everyone, Fauci included


----------



## Ukrainiandude

A study by the Hebrew University of Jerusalem published on Tuesday indicated that the Pfizer vaccine’s effectiveness in preventing serious illness has fallen to 80 percent.

The study, which has been presented to the government, also predicted that the tally of serious COVID-19 cases in Israel could reach as high as 400, from a current 145, in less than three weeks if no steps are taken to rein in infections.


----------



## sags

We need the booster shots....preferably in sugar cube or pill form.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> We need the booster shots....preferably in sugar cube or pill form.


Taken daily after the meal?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*CDC reverses indoor mask policy, saying fully vaccinated people and kids should wear them indoors.*


----------



## Ukrainiandude

New marketing strategy by big pharma.
A third dose of the Pfizer/BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine can "strongly" boost protection against the Delta variant -- beyond the protection afforded by the standard two doses, new data released by Pfizer on Wednesday suggests.
The data posted online suggest that levels of antibodies that can target the Delta variant grow fivefold in people 18 to 55 who get a third dose of the vaccine.
Among people ages 65 to 85, the Pfizer data suggest that antibody levels that should protect against Delta grow 11-fold more than following a second dose.
The data, which involved tests of 23 people, have not yet been peer-reviewed or published.
It's not clear if boosted antibody levels actually correlate to better protection, or if that extra protection is even needed.
Receiving a third dose more than six months after vaccination, when protection may be beginning to wane, was estimated to potentially boost the neutralizing antibody titers in participants in this study to up to 100 times higher post-dose three compared to pre-dose three," Dolsten said in prepared remarks. "These preliminary data are very encouraging as Delta continues to spread."


----------



## Ukrainiandude

There's more potentially worrisome news for vaccinated people: In very rare cases, people experiencing breakthrough infections may be at risk for long-COVID symptoms.

That's according to a small new study of fully vaccinated health care workers in Israel, published Wednesday in The New England Journal of Medicine. 

The study confirmed what's already known: That it's very rare for fully vaccinated people to get infected or sick with COVID-19. But it also found lingering COVID symptoms did develop in a handful of breakthrough cases. 

Researchers studied 1,497 vaccinated health care workers at the Sheba Medical Center in Israel. Among them, only 39 got infected despite their inoculations. Of those, seven — or about 19% — developed symptoms that lasted at least six weeks, including headaches, muscle pain, loss of taste and smell and fatigue.

"It's really disturbing," says Dr. Gili Regev-Yochay, director of the infection, prevention and control unit with the Sheba Medical Center and an author of the study.

"If this is what we're going to see with all of the even mildly symptomatic infections that we're seeing now, it's definitely worrisome," she says.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*NYC to Offer $100 Incentive for Vaccination Starting Friday*
*Anyone who gets a first dose at a city-run site starting Friday July 30 will get the $100*


----------



## gibor365

Pfizer CEO very confident COVID booster will protect against Delta variant (NYSE:PFE)


Albert Bourla, CEO of drug maker Pfizer (PFE), said that he was very, very confident that a third dose of its COVID vaccine will protect against the Delta variant.




seekingalpha.com





Looks like we'll need a booster every 3-4 months

_Data released by the Health Ministry (Israel) last week suggested that people vaccinated in January have just 16% protection against infection now, while in those vaccinated in April, the effectiveness was at 75%. _








Bennett says Israel is ‘very close’ to approving a COVID booster shot


Health Ministry data has shown that those who were first to receive the Pfizer COVID vaccine are more likely now to be infected, apparently due to diminishing effectiveness




www.timesofisrael.com


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> Looks like we'll need a booster every 3-4 months


That article points out that there can be major inaccuracies in the kind of study that was done in Israel. This isn't the final word.

At the moment it's only looking like people with high risk factors or compromised immune system may need boosters, and even that is not certain yet. It will take a while before scientists are more clear on this issue.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> That article points out that there can be major inaccuracies in the kind of study that was done in Israel. This isn't the final word.
> 
> At the moment it's only looking like people with high risk factors or compromised immune system may need boosters, and even that is not certain yet. It will take a while before scientists are more clear on this issue.


I disagree, I think we'll need variant boosters. Just like we need new flu shots for different variants.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I disagree, I think we'll need variant boosters. Just like we need new flu shots for different variants.


 ... OMG, we'll never hear the end of the anti-vaxxers' (or wannabes) uproars.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ... OMG, we'll never hear the end of the anti-vaxxers' (or wannabes) uproars.


Are they supposed to die off from the corona virus?


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Are they supposed to die off from the corona virus?


 ... you mean "aren't they supposed to die off from Covid?" from not being vaccinated. In theory: yes. In reality: no.


----------



## Eder

A substantial percentage of non vaccinated people already carry anti bodies and are protected from serious outcomes. I think this fact is too often forgotten in the latest Covid hysteria.


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> A substantial percentage of non vaccinated people already carry anti bodies and are protected from serious outcomes. I think this fact is too often forgotten in the latest Covid hysteria.


 ... does this mean they're "non-infectious"?


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... does this mean they're "non-infectious"?


.It means they have same protection as vaccinated people do (or better, depending which variant they came in contact with).
They are as infectious or less infectious than vaccinated people


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> .It means they have same protection as vaccinated people do (or better, depending which variant they came in contact with).
> They are as infectious or less infectious than vaccinated people


 ... still infectious, no? And why bother with spending trillions of $, resources, etc. to develop a vaccine to protect/save lives then? Or maybe playing Hunger Games, and/or Russian Roulette is the preference? Of conspiracists.


----------



## damian13ster

No, not infectious. Unless you think vaccinated people are also infectious. 
They have antibodies - same as vaccinated people do.
They might also have antibodies better suited for delta variant, depending on which variant they came in contact with.

Wtf are you talking about?
There are 2 ways to get immunity
1, Vaccine
2. Exposure.

1 is preferable,
but if 2 happens before 1 is available or due to a choice of not taking a vaccine, then it provides same or better protection than option 1.

It is called science, and quite basic at that, and not a conspiracy


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... still infectious, no? And why bother with spending trillions of $, resources, etc. to develop a vaccine to protect/save lives then? Or maybe playing Hunger Games, and/or Russian Roulette is the preference? Of conspiracists.


Because it's in our self interest to spend a few billion preventing diseases.
That's why we develop vaccines.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Because it's in our self interest to spend a few billion preventing diseases.
> That's why we develop vaccines.


 ... part of those reason(s). Main part is "not to die".


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> No, not infectious. Unless you think vaccinated people are also infectious.


 ... can you please re-read your post. You mentioned they're just as infectious and I was trying to affirm that. So this mean they can infect others, including the vaccinated. Only the vaccinated are protected with lower severity of the disease. 


> They have antibodies - same as vaccinated people do.
> They might also have antibodies better suited for delta variant, depending on which variant they came in contact with.


 ... I would hope so. But it would be interesting to see how un-vaccinated people infect other un-vaccinated people or maybe they don't infect each other? 



> Wtf are you talking about?
> There are 2 ways to get immunity
> 1, Vaccine
> 2. Exposure.
> 
> 1 is preferable,
> but if 2 happens before 1 is available or due to a choice of not taking a vaccine, then it provides same or better protection than option 1.
> 
> It is called science, and quite basic at that, and not a conspiracy


 ... yes that's the science. But it's a conspiracy when Eder labels the pandemic as a "Covid hysteria" and that "a substantial percentage of non vaccinated people already carry anti bodies and are protected from serious outcomes." meaning who gives a sh1t about the vaccinated people being infected, again? So isn't this is a scene coming out from Hunger Games? 

Never mind (on closer reading of his post) about his comment that "the un-vaccinated are protected from "serious" outcomes." This is provided they survive first from the "serious" outcomes with robust anti-bodies. In which case, they shouldn't even be in the ICU unit to begin with, holding up everyone else without Covid.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... can you please re-read your post. You mentioned they're just as infectious and I was trying to affirm that. So this mean they can infect others, including the vaccinated. Only the vaccinated are protected with lower severity of the disease.
> ... I would hope so. But it would be interesting to see how un-vaccinated people infect other un-vaccinated people or maybe they don't infect each other?
> 
> ... yes that's the science. But it's a conspiracy when Eder labels the pandemic as a "Covid hysteria" and that "a substantial percentage of non vaccinated people already carry anti bodies and are protected from serious outcomes." meaning who gives a sh1t about the vaccinated people being infected, again? So isn't this is a scene coming out from Hunger Games?
> 
> Never mind (on closer reading of his post) about the comment that "the un-vaccinated are protected from "serious" outcomes." This is provided they survive first from the "serious" outcomes with robust anti-bodies. In which case, they shouldn't even be in the ICU unit to begin with, holding up everyone else without Covid.


No, re-read my post.
"No, not infectious. Unless you think vaccinated people are also infectious."


... I would hope so. But it would be interesting to see how un-vaccinated people infect other un-vaccinated people or maybe they don't infect each other? 

This statement makes zero sense. They have better protection or at least same protection as vaccinated people. There is nothing more to it.
Un-vaccinated people who went through infection are the same as vaccinated people when it comes to spreading the virus.

I am not sure how to write it more plainly.

Un-vaccinated that went through infection = vaccinated people.

There is a reason why multiple countries treat positive covid test result the same as vaccination record.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> ... _Un-vaccinated people who went through infection are the same as vaccinated people when it comes to spreading the virus. .. _


 ... who/what can verify this? Keep in mind there're cases where vaccinated people get re-infected (since the vaccination is not 100% or bullet proof) so where does that re-infection come from? Other vaccinated people?


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ^ *... who/what can verify this? * Keep in mind there're cases where vaccinated people get re-infected (since the vaccination is not 100% or bullet proof) so where does that re-infection come from? Other vaccinated people?


I told you: common knowledge and science









Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime


People who recover from mild COVID-19 have bone-marrow cells that can churn out antibodies for decades, although viral variants could dampen some of the protection they offer.




www.nature.com












Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19


The immune systems of more than 95% of people who recovered from COVID-19 had durable memories of the virus up to eight months after infection.




www.nih.gov












Mild COVID-19 induces lasting antibody protection, study finds: People who have had mild illness develop antibody-producing cells that can last lifetime


People who have had a mild case of COVID-19 are left with long-term antibody protection against future disease, according to a new study.



www.sciencedaily.com





Don't understand why you question common knowledge.


Yes, infection can definitely come from other vaccinated people. Only 40% effectiveness against Delta variant infection so if one gets infected, there is 37.5% chance they got infected from other vaccinated person.


----------



## Beaver101

^ All your links refer to lasting immunity (protection) for the unvaccinateds who survived an infection first. Nothing there that proves they don't infect others, vaccinateds and un-vaccinateds. Actually the disease has more impact on the vaccinateds given the surviving infected un-vaccinateds have natural immunity.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ^ All your links refer to lasting immunity (protection) for the unvaccinateds who survived an infection first. Nothing there that proves they don't infect others, vaccinateds and un-vaccinateds. Actually more impact on the vaccinateds given the surviving infected unvaccinateds have natural immunity.


I think you don't understand how vaccines and immunity works.
If you don't get infected then you can't spread infection. Immunity stops you from getting infected as you fight of the concentration of the virus you are exposed to quickly before it takes hold of your body. Of course there are breakthrough cases. There is zero evidence that breakthrough cases in unvaccinated are more common than breakthrough cases in vaccinated.

Here is a study showing that natural immunity is actually significantly better than vaccines for variants of concern:








Thai study looks at CoronaVac vaccine vs. natural immunity to SARS-COV-2 variants


A new study evaluates the efficacy of vaccine- and infection-induced antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 variants.




www.news-medical.net




It doesn't look at mRNA vaccines though.
Here is a study against general vaccination and natural immunity:








Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals


Background The purpose of this study was to evaluate the necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in persons previously infected with SARS-CoV-2. Methods Employees of the Cleveland Clinic Health System working in Ohio on Dec 16, 2020, the day COVID-19 vaccination was started, were included. Any...




www.medrxiv.org





*Conclusions* Individuals who have had SARS-CoV-2 infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination, and vaccines can be safely prioritized to those who have not been infected before.
*Summary* Cumulative incidence of COVID-19 was examined among 52238 employees in an American healthcare system. COVID-19 did not occur in anyone over the five months of the study among 2579 individuals previously infected with COVID-19, including 1359 who did not take the vaccine.


If you do get infected (like 60% of vaccinated people) then you will spread it too.

Again, common sense. Don't try to argue with science.
Natural immunity is extremely effective in preventing infection and spread.

Also, a recent report evaluating previous SARS-CoV-2 infections found that memory B cells produce new antibodies that can recognize the new variants and their mutations upon exposure to the pathogen.

s And as variants of concern take hold we should start thinking about protecting those with natural immunity against the vaccinated ones who didn't have previous infections./s


----------



## Beaver101

> Natural immunity is extremely effective in preventing infection and spread.


 ... with the first statement, I presume you mean "re-infection" on self. In this case, I agree only if you survived first to build up the natural immunity. But just how many of us have that natural immunity as compared to the millions Covid deceaseds? Hence the need for vaccines for the rest of the population.

As for the second statement, the "spread" or infecting others - you really have no way of knowing both the vaccinated and un-vaccinated can prevent that when the disease (ie. rising variants) is still floating around. Actually the evidence is there with the resurgence of the disease in many parts of the world. Example, successful Australia (ie. lockdown, restrictions, masks worked well) with low Covid deaths but low vaccination rates too, is having a resurgence of infections. Why's that? New variant. Maybe it's time to let natural immunity to take its course there? Israel with its high vaccination rate is having a resurgence, why's that? New variant. If natural immunity theory works well, then no need for a booster there either. 

In either case, the question becomes " to (continue) to vaccine or not to vaccine" the general population.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... with the first statement, I presume you mean "re-infection" on self. In this case, I agree only if you survived first to build up the natural immunity. But just how many of us have that natural immunity as compared to the millions Covid deceaseds? Hence the need for vaccines for the rest of the population.
> 
> As for the second statement, the "spread" or infecting others - you really have no way of knowing both the vaccinated and un-vaccinated can prevent that when the disease (ie. rising variants) is still floating around. Actually the evidence is there with the resurgence of the disease in many parts of the world. Example, successful Australia (ie. lockdown, restrictions, masks worked well) with low Covid deaths but low vaccination rates too, is having a resurgence of infections. Why's that? New variant. Maybe it's time to let natural immunity to take its course there? Israel with its high vaccination rate is having a resurgence, why's that? New variant. If natural immunity theory works well, then no need for a booster there either.
> 
> In either case, the question becomes " to (continue) to vaccine or not to vaccine" the general population.


If you believe this:








Coronavirus Update (Live): 123,042,823 Cases and 2,715,771 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer


Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...




www.worldometers.info




then 200mln people have natural immunity.
Of course estimates are that this number is undercounted by a factor of 6-10x due to low testing, so it could be anywhere between 1.2bln and 2bln with natural immunity that is superior to vaccines when it comes to variants of concern.

And what you just said is exact reason why segregation and coercion in society is absolutely sinister.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> And what you just said is exact reason why segregation and coercion in society is absolutely sinister.


 ... I replied to this a few minutes ago, right after replying to UKDude. But both of my posts are gone - presumably deleted - is that correct? And why?


----------



## moderator2

Beaver101 said:


> But both of my posts are gone - presumably deleted - is that correct? And why?


I deleted a group of posts that were an off topic argument about Indians getting money.

Please keep the thread on track


----------



## Beaver101

moderator2 said:


> I deleted a group of posts that were an off topic argument about Indians getting money.
> 
> Please keep the thread on track


 ... I don't dispute about the Indians getting $ for a jab -stupid post. But my reply to #3560 about vaccines or vaccinated & infections was on topic. Can that be retrieved back as I don't want to re-type it.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

The USA got free access to vaccines for everyone.
and today 100k new cases and 400 dead, and no big deal.
World finely is starting to learn how to live with covid


----------



## Ukrainiandude

I feel so stupid now. I got nothing.
*Covid-19: Biden tells states to offer $100 vaccine incentive as cases rise.*


----------



## damian13ster

Why not wait until they start giving even more?


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> I feel so stupid now. I got nothing.
> *Covid-19: Biden tells states to offer $100 vaccine incentive as cases rise.*


Nothing like taking your money to give to people too dumb to take care of themselves.

Now I actually do understand that financially this makes sense, particularly in Canada since hospitalizing one of those anti-vaxxers costs way more. It IS a mathematically sound argument.


I just see it as taking money from me, to pay for other peoples bad decisions.


----------



## MrMatt

Saw this post on SeekingAlpha
"Efficacy of Pfizer's (NYSE:PFE) coronavirus vaccine, which is pegged at 96%, declines an average of 6% every two months, according to the company, and effectiveness in groups like the elderly and immunocompromised diminishes even more quickly.".

To me that looks like 6-12 month boosters will be required. 12 month would line up with flu shots and be convenient.
But if you recall the discussions the possibility of 6 month boosters was discussed here.
I'm not sure we'll get people lining up every 6 months for a booster.


----------



## OptsyEagle

If we ever want to get out of this mess we need to vaccinate the rest of the world before we start boosting our own immune systems just a little bit more. At some point in time we need to stop thinking of ourselves and start thinking of the rest of the world. That type of thinking may actually help us just as much.

If we can get our population up to around 95% protected, with a combo of vaccination and infection recoveries, and get the lion's share of the world inoculated one way or the other, this pandemic will move into the alert status of a bad cold going around, in the future.

I would prefer to give the rest of the world a choice in their inoculation, between vaccination or infection, just as we were given. That is not going to happen if we keep gorging ourselves on vaccine.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Walter A. Orenstein, associate director of the Emory Vaccine Center, said he was struck by data showing that vaccinated people who became infected with delta shed just as much virus as those who were not vaccinated. The slide references an outbreak in Barnstable County, Mass., where vaccinated and unvaccinated people shed nearly identical amounts of virus.
www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-guidance/


----------



## sags

_Simple. Vaccination should be mandatory. As much as it pains an indy-minded, Con-type, Alpha male to say such a thing, it’s just common sense. Employers should insist workers get jabbed before returning to the workplace. Restaurants, gyms, concerts, conventions, cruises and airlines need to see proof of stabbing before providing service. Schools and universities are a no-brainer. Maybe even the streetcar, bus and subway.






On cowardice — Greater Fool – Authored by Garth Turner – The Troubled Future of Real Estate







www.greaterfool.ca




_


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> Simple


Is this the guy who was/is annually predicting Canadian real estate prices crush since 2000 or earlier?


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> _Simple. Vaccination should be mandatory. As much as it pains an indy-minded, Con-type, Alpha male to say such a thing, it’s just common sense. Employers should insist workers get jabbed before returning to the workplace. Restaurants, gyms, concerts, conventions, cruises and airlines need to see proof of stabbing before providing service. Schools and universities are a no-brainer. Maybe even the streetcar, bus and subway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On cowardice — Greater Fool – Authored by Garth Turner – The Troubled Future of Real Estate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.greaterfool.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


Sorry, but Ontario Nurses don't think mandatory vaccinations are appropriate, they've fought and won.

I simply don't believe that people should be forced to put their lives at risk because the government told them so.

My body my choice.

Also the government needs to decide if they are for or against vaccinations.
The antivaxxers pulled AZ. But now they want to force everyone to get injected?


----------



## sags

Alberta is lifting all restrictions, contact tracing and quarantine requirements.

They are throwing the doors wide open for the spread of the Delta variant.

It looks like the Kenney government doesn't want people to know the numbers.


----------



## sags

A few nurses chose not to be vaccinated, but they are not allowed to work during any outbreaks.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> A few nurses chose not to be vaccinated, but they are not allowed to work during any outbreaks.


The ONA won their ruling.


----------



## damian13ster

The goal was always to stop the health care system from being overwhelmed.
Infections don't overwhelm healthcare system.
Especially since vaccines are over 90% effective in stopping an infection from turning into hospitalization (although they aren't very effective in stopping shedding the virus)
Hospitalizations and ICU numbers do. Those will still be tracked.
This is a very smart choice as we are finally focusing on only metrics that matter


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> The ONA won their ruling.


You misinterpret the ruling. It was in 2018 and dealt with the seasonal flu.

Nurses were not required to get vaccinated, but were not allowed to work during an outbreak.

The practical result of the ruling was that nurses couldn't be terminated for refusal to get a vaccine.

They still were not allowed to work and didn't get paid during their time off.

The same ruling was in effect for LTC and retirement homes, and some nurses and workers were off without pay for months during flu outbreaks in the homes. My wife had to fill in their shifts.

Nurse and doctor organizations are now calling for Doug Ford to require full vaccinations.









Ontario health worker groups want mandatory COVID-19 shots for health care workers | Globalnews.ca


Statements from the Ontario Medical Association and the Registered Nurses' Association of Ontario came the day after Premier Doug Ford said he wouldn't mandate the vaccine.




globalnews.ca


----------



## Spudd

Here's the press release directly from the nurses:




__





Mandatory vaccination - Open letter from RNAO to Ontario's Premier Hon. Doug Ford


/CNW/ - July 20, 2021 Hon. Doug Ford, Premier The office of the Premier Legislative Bldg Rm 281 Queen's Park Toronto, ON M7A 1A1 MANDATORY VACCINATION - OPEN...




www.newswire.ca


----------



## MrMatt

Canada has a pretty bad history with nonconsensual medical procedures.

But that's authoritarians for ya.

It seems odd that the people chanting "human rights" are so quick to dismiss them.


----------



## damian13ster

Spudd said:


> Here's the press release directly from the nurses:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mandatory vaccination - Open letter from RNAO to Ontario's Premier Hon. Doug Ford
> 
> 
> /CNW/ - July 20, 2021 Hon. Doug Ford, Premier The office of the Premier Legislative Bldg Rm 281 Queen's Park Toronto, ON M7A 1A1 MANDATORY VACCINATION - OPEN...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newswire.ca


I was always curious: 
how does one prove that?
'religious or conscientious objection.'


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Why not wait until they start giving even more?


 ... he is ... as per original plan until 2023 for the 2nd jab. 

As for the "booster(s)", that could be perpetual. Isn't this an opportunity cost in business terms? Only that this cost is a life. That would be very unfortunate.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... he is ... as per original plan until 2023 for the 2nd jab.
> 
> As for the "booster(s)", that could be perpetual. Isn't this an opportunity cost in business terms? Only that this cost is a life. That would be very unfortunate.


Depends on your age and health status.
In vast majority of cases I wouldn't advise waiting


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Jack Posobiec

@JackPosobiec
·
16h

White House chatter is that lockdowns for delta variant all but a done deal. Virtually all blue states are cooperating with WH / CDC. They’re aiming for late 2nd week of August, per WH official.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

There’s a ‘realistic possibility’ that a new Covid variant could develop that may kill as many as one in three people it infects, according to scientists advising the Government.

SAGE has released a paper outlining how the pandemic may develop next, with one possible ‘doomsday’ scenario concerning the experts.

The potential new variant could cause ‘severe disease in a greater proportion of the population than has occurred to date’ and may have a similar mortality rate to another coronavirus, MERS-CoV, which results in death in 35% of cases.

Scenario One: A variant that causes severe disease in a greater proportion of the population than has occurred to date. For example, with similar morbidity/mortality to other zoonotic coronaviruses such as SARS-CoV (~10% case fatality) or MERS-CoV (~35% case fatality).
Likelihood of increased severity phenotype: Realistic possibility.
Impact: High. Unless there is significant drift in the spike glycoprotein gene sequence, then the current spike glycoprotein-based vaccines are highly likely to continue to provide protection against serious disease. However, an increase in morbidity and mortality would be expected even in the face of vaccination since vaccines do not provide absolute sterilising immunity i.e. they do not fully prevent infection in most individuals.



https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1007566/S1335_Long_term_evolution_of_SARS-CoV-2.pdf


----------



## Beaver101

Ontario in `critical' period to use up Moderna shots, pharmacists group says

Another problem. Seems like somebod(es) procuring/distributing the vaccines do not know how to do math or estimations.


----------



## sags

That is our local health authority.

The same one I was posting about and people said there was no problem.

Our grandson and his mom finally have an appointment to get their 2nd shot on Aug 3.

If we had all these vaccines.......why have they been waiting for months ?

What happened was that our vaccine supply was being diverted to the Toronto area and there were no opportunities to get vaccinated. Then the Province dumped a pile of vaccine on us and nobody wants one now, or the vaccinators and volunteers are weary and taking time off.

The Province created a big mess. They could have had pharmacies giving the vaccine shots.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Nothing like taking your money to give to people too dumb to take care of themselves.
> 
> Now I actually do understand that financially this makes sense, particularly in Canada since hospitalizing one of those anti-vaxxers costs way more. It IS a mathematically sound argument.
> 
> 
> I just see it as taking money from me, to pay for other peoples bad decisions.


Not such a bad idea. Much of the plasma and blood supply comes from paying people . In Texas those lots are full of people who supply these blood products for cash. I suspect at lot of the same types would show up at a vaccine clinic if they were paid a $100 .


----------



## zinfit

Spudd said:


> Here's the press release directly from the nurses:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mandatory vaccination - Open letter from RNAO to Ontario's Premier Hon. Doug Ford
> 
> 
> /CNW/ - July 20, 2021 Hon. Doug Ford, Premier The office of the Premier Legislative Bldg Rm 281 Queen's Park Toronto, ON M7A 1A1 MANDATORY VACCINATION - OPEN...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newswire.ca


totally agree. If I was a hospital patient I would want my healthcare providers to be vaccinated. A lot of rights in the name of public health have been trampled on during the pandemic In many ways this is more important than many other impositions.


----------



## sags

A guy at my wife's work refused the vaccine, and then refused to wear a mask and face shield or googles.

Head office came in to talk to him.....with no result, so they terminated him on the spot.

It sends a strong message to all the other employees who want to play their " I got rights" games.

Every cause needs martyrs and the un-vaccinated have lots of those......losing their job, infecting others, or dying.


----------



## sags

Ironic to listen to Fox News last night.

They have made the pivot from supporting the anti-vaxxer rights to "they are stupid and causing lockdowns". The "pillow guy" has pulled his ads.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> That is our local health authority.
> 
> The same one I was posting about and people said there was no problem.
> 
> Our grandson and his mom finally have an appointment to get their 2nd shot on Aug 3.
> 
> If we had all these vaccines.......why have they been waiting for months ?
> 
> *What happened was that our vaccine supply was being diverted to the Toronto area and there were no opportunities to get vaccinated. Then the Province dumped a pile of vaccine on us and nobody wants one now, or the vaccinators and volunteers are weary and taking time off.*
> 
> The Province created a big mess. They could have had pharmacies giving the vaccine shots.


 ... like I said, somebod(ies) who is charge of vaccines "distribution" in this case does not know how to do math or estimations. I'm very very surprised that the provincial experts do not know how to allocate vaccines at this point in time of the pandemic or months earlier or somebod(ies) there fxcked up. Sheesh.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> totally agree. If I was a hospital patient I would want my healthcare providers to be vaccinated. A lot of rights in the name of public health have been trampled on during the pandemic In many ways this is more important than many other impositions.


I want my healthcare providers to be vaccinated.
If only because it shows they have good judgement.

But I support human rights, and they have a right not to subject themselves to that.
Human rights must be respected.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> I want my healthcare providers to be vaccinated.
> If only because it shows they have good judgement.
> 
> But I support human rights, and they have a right not to subject themselves to that.
> Human rights must be respected.


How about the human rights of the patient. In my books the rights of the patient comes first in a hospital situation. There is no such thing as absolute rights. Medical people should be the last people to refuse a vaccine.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> How about the human rights of the patient. In my books the rights of the patient comes first in a hospital situation. There is no such thing as absolute rights. Medical people should be the last people to refuse a vaccine.


Why?
Human rights for everyone but the doctors?
Maybe only white people don't get human rights, or asians, they're smart enough to discriminate against right (harvard)

Sorry, Human rights, all the time, for everyone.

Oh I saw some troubling data, Hospital workers having a lower rate of vaccination than the general public, and doctors having an even lower rate than nurses. Despite them getting priority access.








Case for mandatory COVID-19 vaccination compared to smoking restrictions by MLHU


'We highly, highly, ask you, encourage you, beg you to do it,' London Mayor Ed Holder pleaded with the one in five people in the region who remain unvaccinated during a media briefing on Monday.




london.ctvnews.ca


----------



## sags

Your link didn't support your claim about doctors and nurses.

You do realize the hospital employs many other people beyond doctors and nurses.....as in housekeeping, dietary, kitchen, maintenance, porters...?


----------



## sags

It is baffling to me why some people who are vaccinated, or claim to be......would support the anti-vaxxers.

Maybe they aren't really vaccinated and trying to justify it to themselves. 

Some people are deathly afraid of needles.....so they should know there is lots of support at the clinics. They will support the reticent from start to finish. They will carry you if they have to. The fear is often not about the needle, but the fear of embarrassment if they pass out. Tell the support staff that you are in panic mode about it.......and let them take it from there.

Go get vaccinated. It takes a few seconds and the rest of the time is just sitting and waiting to leave.


----------



## damian13ster

Because even despite my belief that vast majority of your opinions are more appropriate to totalitarian regimes we seen in first half of 20th century than current age, I will still defend your right to voice your opinion.

Same with anti-vaxxers. They arrived to different conclusion than I did. This gives me absolutely no right to enforce my view or my opinion on them. The same way as they have no right to enforce their view or opinion to me.

Defending human rights for those who agree with you is easy.
Defending human rights for those who are different than you - that takes a bigger man.


----------



## sags

What elevates the individual rights of the un-vaccinated above the rights of all others ?


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> What elevates the individual rights of the un-vaccinated above the rights of all others ?


The same thing that should have elevated rights of each individual Jew in 1930s rather than rights of rest of German society.
Human rights are precisely created to protect individual and minority from the oppression from majority


----------



## sags

Hitler was never elected by the German people.

He was a totalitarian dictator who removed many rights of all citizens, including Jews, gypsies, the disabled, intellectuals, and many ethnic groups in German society.

Hitler took over control of the media, the judicial system, law enforcement and most aspects of German society without any lawful democratic process or approval involved.

As a free democracy we must continually balance the conflicting rights of everyone in society.

A society of unchallenged individual rights such as you suggest, would be a disaster and collapse.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> German society had no inherent or legal right to treat the Jews as the Nazis did.
> 
> Hitler was never elected by the German people.
> 
> He was a totalitarian dictator who removed the rights of all citizens, including the German Jews.


So by your logic, if Hitler was elected (he did win elections) then holocaust would be completely fine?

Don't you dare compare the treatment of Jews to the rest of citizens of Germany at that point. You are pure evil.

You are suggesting segregation as well based on the idea (now disproved by science) that individual rights somehow violate societal rights.
German Jews had their rights removed based on the idea (with no basis) that their rights somehow violate societal rights.


----------



## like_to_retire

damian13ster said:


> Human rights are precisely created to protect individual and minority from the oppression from majority


Context is important though. 

No one would disagree with the example of the individual Jewish person rather than the rights of the German society, but I think a lot depends on whether the individual is harming or putting the larger populous in danger. 

No one would dispute that the individual doesn't have the right to yell fire in a crowded theater since they would be putting everyone else in danger, but they have every right to do so if they were alone in the theater. 

With vaccinations, those individuals who are refusing are putting everyone else in danger.

ltr


----------



## damian13ster

like_to_retire said:


> Context is important though.
> 
> No one would disagree with the example of the individual Jewish person rather than the rights of the German society, but I think a lot depends on whether the individual is harming or putting the larger populous in danger.
> 
> No one would dispute that the individual doesn't have the right to yell fire in a crowded theater since they would be putting everyone else in danger, but they have every right to do so if they were alone in the theater.
> 
> With vaccinations, those individuals who are refusing are putting everyone else in danger.
> 
> ltr


And who determines that.
Germany determined Jewish people are harming or putting the larger populous in danger.
Sags determined that unvaccinated people are harming or putting the larger populous in danger.
Neither of those facts are supported by science. Science is also always challenge-able and changing.
Just because those in power in Germany decided so, or sags decided so, it doesn't justify human rights abuse

Here lies entire problem. Who makes the decision of which human rights are justified and which are not? When is segregation, extermination, genocide, forced mutilation justified?
It is another human that decides and here lies the problem.
For that reason segregation, extermination, genocide, and forced mutilation can never be justified. Human rights can never be violated.

And your last statement has been refuted. Vaccinated individuals shed as much virus as un-vaccinated. Unvaccinated individuals are putting noone but themselves at danger. 
Even if that wasn't the case, violating human rights would still not be justified, but since that is the case, I really don't understand why this ludicrous debate is still taking place.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> So by your logic, if Hitler was elected (he did win elections) then holocaust would be completely fine?
> 
> Don't you dare compare the treatment of Jews to the rest of citizens of Germany at that point. You are pure evil.
> 
> You are suggesting segregation as well based on the idea (now disproved by science) that individual rights somehow violate societal rights.
> German Jews had their rights removed based on the idea (with no basis) that their rights somehow violate societal rights.


I never said the loss of rights were comparable, just that they existed.

Gypsies,intellectuals, and non-Jewish people were also killed or sent to concentration camps by the Nazi regime.

You introduced the Nazis to defend your indefensable position......not me.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> I never said the loss of rights were comparable, just that they existed.
> 
> Gypsies,intellectuals, and non-Jewish people were also killed or sent to concentration camps by the Nazi regime.
> 
> You introduced the Nazis to defend your indefensable position......not me.


Indefensible? The fact that your idea is literal copy of nazis led genocide doesn't make you question it?

Anyway, this debate is useless. As vaccinated people we present exact same danger to society as un-vaccinated do as we are shedding same amount of virus.
You are welcome to segregate yourself if that is your choice.
Stop abusing other individuals because of your anti-science stances


----------



## sags

_Germany determined Jewish people are harming or putting the larger populous in danger. _

It was the dictatorial Nazi regime who made that decision.....not the German people.

You completely misunderstand the history of Hitler's rise to power and his ruthless control over all branches of the government. The German people decided nothing in Hitler's Germany.

If your claim is that dictators and tyrants abuse civil rights... that is how they become dictators.


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> With vaccinations, those individuals who are refusing are putting everyone else in danger.


Yes, but the question really is how much harm are we willing to inflict on an individual to reduce harm in wider society.

Lets imagine we had a 100% way to stop COVID, right now, if everyone took it.
The only drawback was it killed a portion of the people who took it.

How many deaths are acceptable? I've asked, and nobody has given an answer.


Also remember, the Government pulled AZ as being too dangerous when it was thought to be killing <1 in 200k people.


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> The same thing that should have elevated rights of each individual Jew in 1930s rather than rights of rest of German society.
> Human rights are precisely created to protect individual and minority from the oppression from majority


The Charter says that rights can be restricted or compromised with reasonable measures that can be justified in a free and democratic society. I figure restaurants and stores should be able to deny access to the unvaccinated. Just like they do with smoking. Covid is transmitted through the air is a bigger immediate health risk than second hand smoke. I have no problem with hospitals taking such a move.


----------



## kcowan

MrMatt said:


> How many deaths are acceptable? I've asked, and nobody has given an answer.
> 
> Also remember, the Government pulled AZ as being too dangerous when it was thought to be killing <1 in 200k people.


I think 1% unless there is an alternative that is significantly less.


----------



## MrMatt

kcowan said:


> I think 1% unless there is an alternative that is significantly less.


You would suggest killing off 1% of the Canadian population to save us from a virus that is projected to kill less than 1% of the population?
That's literally the logical argument that "don't take this vaccine right now" are making.

Myself I thought my odds of serious COVID19 interactions were far less than the risks from the AZ vaccine, so I took it. Others (like our government) came to a different conclusion.

I see the government on the anti-vaxxer side of myself, so I find it odd that the same people saying "don't vaccinate" would be pushing for mandatory vaccinations.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> The Charter says that rights can be restricted or compromised with reasonable measures that can be justified in a free and democratic society. I figure restaurants and stores should be able to deny access to the unvaccinated. Just like they do with smoking. Covid is transmitted through the air is a bigger immediate health risk than second hand smoke. I have no problem with hospitals taking such a move.


If vaccinated people also shed COVID19 (they do) why would you treat vaccinated and unvaccinated differently in this context?


----------



## OptsyEagle

deleted


----------



## sags

It is an age old philosophical question.

If in a full life raft, do you take in more passengers if the raft will sink and everyone will drown ?


----------



## sags

American restaurant owners who require full vaccinations for employees and customers are reporting that 98% of their customers are very happy with the decision. It could well be that businesses will provide the impetus to get vaccinated.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> The Charter says that rights can be restricted or compromised with reasonable measures that can be justified in a free and democratic society. I figure restaurants and stores should be able to deny access to the unvaccinated. Just like they do with smoking. Covid is transmitted through the air is a bigger immediate health risk than second hand smoke. I have no problem with hospitals taking such a move.


But vaccinated people are transmitting it at the same rate unvaccinated people do.
Everyone seems to be missing that quite an important point


----------



## damian13ster

kcowan said:


> I think 1% unless there is an alternative that is significantly less.


That's 400,000 Canadians you would be willing to kill


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> Hitler was never elected by the German people.
> 
> He was a totalitarian dictator who removed many rights of all citizens, including Jews, gypsies, the disabled, intellectuals, and many ethnic groups in German society.
> 
> Hitler took over control of the media, the judicial system, law enforcement and most aspects of German society without any lawful democratic process or approval involved.
> 
> As a free democracy we must continually balance the conflicting rights of everyone in society.
> 
> A society of unchallenged individual rights such as you suggest, would be a disaster and collapse.


Hitler was actually elected - twice. It was on his second election, he dissolved all the other political parties and started his reign. Even in a somewhat democratic society, both individual rights and society rights need to be challenged in order to have a balance. The challenge is where does one right start and another stop. It does become a slippery slope when we start to force people to take medical treatments they do not want.

I do think people should be vaccinated, but not against their will. That is their body. HOWEVER, I see nothing wrong with if someone chooses not to be vaccinated that someone else can choose not be near them or there are additional safety measures for them and those around them.


----------



## sags

He might have been elected to something, but it wasn't President or Chancellor of Germany.

In fact, Hitler's Nazi party never received more than 37% of the vote in general elections.

The theory that the German people supported Hitler's lunatic dictatorship is clearly false.


----------



## like_to_retire

Plugging Along said:


> It does become a slippery slope when we start to force people to take medical treatments they do not want.


Yep, for sure it's a tough situation. I do think this last mile to get everyone vaccinated is a long and slow process that is a bit of a waste of time and that we should just open everything up. That would be my vote.

ltr


----------



## sags

Mandatory vaccination doesn't necessarily mean that people are forced to vaccinate.

As an American judge recently ruled....you don't have to subject yourself to vaccination...just go work somewhere else.

The choice is up to people to get vaccinated or not. Nobody is going to hold them down and stick a needle in their arm.

The choice on who is allowed into a business, event, or employer is someone else's right.


----------



## sags

Mandatory vaccination has been required in Ontario school attendance for a long time.

There is no law that requires a child to be vaccinated, but to attend public schools it is mandatory.

There are exceptions for medical reasons, but must be proven by a doctor.

Exceptions for non-medical reasons requires attendance at a immunization education clinic.

If an outbreak occurs in the school, the un-vaccinated child is removed from the school.









Immunization Requirements for Children in School | EOHU | Public Health


Mandatory immunizations required to attend school in Ontario What do parents need to do? If parents receive a letter notifying them that their child is missing vaccinations ExemptionsHaving up-to-date immunizations helps ensure that children have the best protection possible against certain...




eohu.ca


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> Mandatory vaccination has been required in Ontario school attendance for a long time.


Yep, and that system could be applied to everything in society, so if you wanted to participate in anything, you have to provide proof of vaccination. That way, those who want to exercise their freedom to choose to not vaccinate would be free to do so. It would be their choice to not be allowed into any store, service or facility that required a vaccination.

ltr


----------



## kcowan

damian13ster said:


> That's 400,000 Canadians you would be willing to kill


No it would be 99% I would be willing to save! This is a matter of perspective not for bleeding hearts.


----------



## Eder

I think we need separate stores for vaccinated & vaccinated, as well as separate toilets & water fountains. The vaccinated can wear white hoods to identify each other...no passport required.


----------



## sags

Maybe we could give the un-vaccinated free airline tickets to Florida.....land of the free.


----------



## like_to_retire

Eder said:


> The vaccinated can wear white hoods to identify each other


Nope, that wouldn't be necessary. The vaccinated would be easily identifiable from their abundance of common sense.

ltr


----------



## Ukrainiandude

According to Bloomberg, Vanguard is now offering $1,000 to employees who get vaccinated by October. The giant asset manager is extending the payments to all workers who can prove they’ve gotten a Covid-19 vaccine, even if they were inoculated before the firm extended the offer. A Vanguard spokeswoman confirmed the company is offering an incentive.


----------



## damian13ster

kcowan said:


> No it would be 99% I would be willing to save! This is a matter of perspective not for bleeding hearts.


You are assuming without that action 40mln of Canadians would die then? 😅 😅 😅 
If every single person in entire country would be infected you still wouldn't get to 400k deaths
and now you want to personally have 400,000 people killed. Maniac


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> There’s a ‘realistic possibility’ that a new Covid variant could develop that may kill as many as one in three people it infects, according to scientists advising the Government.
> 
> SAGE has released a paper outlining how the pandemic may develop next, with one possible ‘doomsday’ scenario concerning the experts.
> 
> The potential new variant could cause ‘severe disease in a greater proportion of the population than has occurred to date’ and may have a similar mortality rate to another coronavirus, MERS-CoV, which results in death in 35% of cases.
> 
> Scenario One: A variant that causes severe disease in a greater proportion of the population than has occurred to date. For example, with similar morbidity/mortality to other zoonotic coronaviruses such as SARS-CoV (~10% case fatality) or MERS-CoV (~35% case fatality).
> Likelihood of increased severity phenotype: Realistic possibility.
> Impact: High. Unless there is significant drift in the spike glycoprotein gene sequence, then the current spike glycoprotein-based vaccines are highly likely to continue to provide protection against serious disease. However, an increase in morbidity and mortality would be expected even in the face of vaccination since vaccines do not provide absolute sterilising immunity i.e. they do not fully prevent infection in most individuals.
> 
> 
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1007566/S1335_Long_term_evolution_of_SARS-CoV-2.pdf


Indeed. People are being way too blase about letting the virus spread uncontrolled. Nothing stops it from mutating and becoming quite deadly (as SARS and MERS were) in addition to quite infectious. So reducing the level of infection even in a largely vaccinated population is quite wise. Every breakthrough case is an opportunity for the virus to evolve adaptations that reduce vaccine effectiveness.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> Indeed. People are being way too blase about letting the virus spread uncontrolled. Nothing stops it from mutating and becoming quite deadly (as SARS and MERS were) in addition to quite infectious. So reducing the level of infection even in a largely vaccinated population is quite wise. Every breakthrough case is an opportunity for the virus to evolve adaptations that reduce vaccine effectiveness.


But vaccines don't do that. Vaccinated people have the same concentration of the virus as unvaccinated people and they shed it on same level.
Vaccination protect from symptomatic infection and hospitalization.
Virus is free to mutate within vaccinated people exactly the same as within unvaccinated.
Luckily, generally mutation trends toward more infections - less harmful.


----------



## andrewf

There isn't just one virion in an infected person. The immune system being prepared for the virus acts like a filter. If a person is successfully infected, it is selecting for mutations that can defeat the immune response or replicate more quickly.

Viruses tend to become more infectious and less deadly, but this is just a tendency in a random process like going broke playing blackjack at a casino. Sometimes people win big despite that tendency.


----------



## sags

andrewf said:


> Indeed. People are being way too blase about letting the virus spread uncontrolled. Nothing stops it from mutating and becoming quite deadly (as SARS and MERS were) in addition to quite infectious. So reducing the level of infection even in a largely vaccinated population is quite wise. Every breakthrough case is an opportunity for the virus to evolve adaptations that reduce vaccine effectiveness.


That is a good point that I hadn't thought of before.

Allowing the virus to spread among vaccinated people will force the virus to mutate a way around the vaccine. We have already seen the virus is capable of at least partially accomplishing that and there is no reason to believe that it isn't capable of further mutations in that direction.

Hmmm....of the possible outcomes, it seems to me that would be the worst and the one we should be guarding against the most.

I am sure politicians are being told that....but are choosing to ignore the advice.

Alberta's Dr. Hinshaw is under heavy criticism for her remarks about opening up the restrictions.

Her apology didn't seem to go far with the experts. They say it is stupid policy.

Premier Kenney used her to do what he wants to do for his own political benefit.

And then he said it was her decision and deflected the criticism all to her.

Tough days for medical advisors to governments who don't like the advice given.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> That is a good point that I hadn't thought of before.
> 
> Allowing the virus to spread among vaccinated people will force the virus to mutate a way around the vaccine. We have already seen the virus is capable of at least partially accomplishing that and there is no reason to believe that it isn't capable of further mutations in that direction.
> 
> Hmmm....of the possible outcomes, it seems to me that would be the worst and the one we should be guarding against the most.
> 
> I am sure politicians are being told that....but are choosing to ignore the advice.
> 
> Alberta's Dr. Deena is under heavy criticism for her remarks about opening up the restrictions.
> 
> Her apology didn't seem to go far with the experts. They say it is stupid policy.


I guess we have no choice now but allow only unvaccinated people to go to restaurants, cinema, workplace, etc.

Vaccinated people need to be locked down and stripped of all their freedoms and rights to make sure they don't spread infection and allow the virus to mutate and become resistant to the vaccines


----------



## sags

I think a lot of vaccinated people will stay home if everyone is allowed into the enclosed spaces.

Businesses did some polling of customers and the results were overwhelming.

Around 98% of customers said they wanted only vaccinated people allowed.

That is why a lot of businesses are making the decision on their own to require vaccination records.


----------



## sags

There are those religious types who have sprung up and declared we are living in the last days and the vaccine is the "mark of the beast" etc.etc.......but I would think they would be happy about the vaccination mandate serving to hurry along the timeline to the rapture and the end of days.

It seems like they are not in any hurry to meet their maker just yet.


----------



## Beaver101

PM Trudeau considering making COVID-19 vaccine mandatory in federally-regulated workplaces



> _The Canadian Press
> Published Thursday, August 5, 2021 2:13PM EDT
> OTTAWA -- *Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says he is considering making COVID-19 vaccinations mandatory for some federally regulated workplaces such as airlines.*
> 
> It is the first time Trudeau has openly supported any form of compulsory vaccinations.
> 
> *U.S. President Joe Biden last week introduced measures requiring federal employees and contractors to show proof of vaccination or be subjected to new rules including mandatory masking and weekly testing for COVID-19.*
> 
> Trudeau says he fully supports that plan and that the government is in discussions with the federal public service about whether there are some categories where vaccination should be made mandatory.
> 
> Trudeau is in Quebec today where he announced a child care funding agreement with Premier Francois Legault.
> 
> *But Legault also chose the moment to announce he will be introducing vaccine passports to receive non-essential services in his province*._


 ... the CCLA is going to have to work triple overtime challenging this.


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> PM Trudeau considering making COVID-19 vaccine mandatory in federally-regulated workplaces
> 
> ... the CCLA is going to have to work triple overtime challenging this.


Trudeau might be doing something right. That is a steephill for me. Vaccinations shouldn't be a political divide.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Trudeau might be doing something right. That is a steephill for me. Vaccinations shouldn't be a political divide.


Neither should human rights.

Everyone should be vaccinated.
Everyone has the right to refuse an unwanted medical procedure.


----------



## sags

Nobody will be subjected to forced vaccination. 

Businesses and society at large also have rights and can decide who can enter their premises.

Everyone's rights are respected then.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> Neither should human rights.
> 
> Everyone should be vaccinated.
> Everyone has the right to refuse an unwanted medical procedure.


_*Jacobson v. Massachusetts*_, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.
The Court held that "in every well ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand" and that "[r]eal liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own [liberty], whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."[2]

Furthermore, the Court held that mandatory vaccinations are neither arbitrary nor oppressive so long as they do not "go so far beyond what was reasonably required for the safety of the public".[2]


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> _*Jacobson v. Massachusetts*_, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.
> The Court held that "in every well ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand" and that "[r]eal liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own [liberty], whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."[2]
> 
> Furthermore, the Court held that mandatory vaccinations are neither arbitrary nor oppressive so long as they do not "go so far beyond what was reasonably required for the safety of the public".[2]


Just a few things.
1. This is Canada, not the US, we have a different constitution.
2. The risk reward for further vaccination is beyond what is reasonably required for the safety of the public.
- The public is unlikely to die from COVID if they're vaccinated. Therefore the risk of COVID is now an individual safety concern, not a public safety concern.


----------



## sags

You ignore the reality of rising infection numbers, overwhelmed hospitals, and more severe outcomes and long term problems. Children are becoming a larger % of the infected and hospitalized and are ending up in the ICU units.

The Delta variant changed the reality and projections. It is worse than the first waves of the pandemic.

Healthcare workers are worn out and leaving the hospitals. There are nurse shortages everywhere. 
We now face a situation of an increasing need and a decreasing ability to provide aid.

Governments can set up more beds......but there is no extra supply of healthcare workers.


----------



## zinfit

H


sags said:


> Nobody will be subjected to forced vaccination.
> 
> Businesses and society at large also have rights and can decide who can enter their premises.
> 
> Everyone's rights are respected then.





sags said:


> Nobody will be subjected to forced vaccination.
> 
> Businesses and society at large also have rights and can decide who can enter their premises.
> 
> Everyone's rights are respected then.





sags said:


> Nobody will be subjected to forced vaccination.
> 
> Businesses and society at large also have rights and can decide who can enter their premises.
> 
> Everyone's rights are respected then.


ate to say it but Sags is right on this one.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> Hate to say it but Sags is right on this one.


There is a very grey line between force and coercion.
Just because there isn't a law saying you don't have to do it doesn't mean you aren't forced.
There are multiple examples in the past of unimaginably cruel coercion rather than out right mandate being used.

If you aren't allowed to function in a society, aren't allowed to provide for the family, are segregated and discriminated against in the society then you are coerced.
Jews also wore physical symbol to differentiate from the rest of society - and the rest of society and establishments knew what it meant.

You are going down a nasty path. We have seen what it leads to. History needs to be learned from. If not then we are bound to make the same mistakes and end up with the same results. I really can't wrap my head around how big proportion of people support segregation and discrimination (hopefully) being aware what it leads to, and what it lead to in the past.


----------



## like_to_retire

damian13ster said:


> Jews also wore physical symbol to differentiate from the rest of society - and the rest of society and establishments knew what it meant.


All your strawman analogies don't apply. The unvaccinated are holding the rest of Canada hostage. Their misinformed stance on getting vaccinated is harmful to the population and the economy. The belief that a vaccination is more dangerous than the COVID virus is not backed up by any available data. As the unvaccinated die in hospitals they come to realize their mistake too late.

ltr


----------



## kcowan

The renegades don't want to mask nor vaccinate nor be limited in their movements. It is a deadly combination.

Sadly the ultimate solution will be Darwin's Law unless their supporters turn them around and quickly!


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> All your strawman analogies don't apply. The unvaccinated are holding the rest of Canada hostage.


No they're not, if you're vaccinated, you're relatively safe.



> Their misinformed stance on getting vaccinated is harmful to the population and the economy. The belief that a vaccination is more dangerous than the COVID virus is not backed up by any available data.


Really, the data I've seen shows that even unvaccinated the risk to those under 20 is virtually zero, even if you get COVID19.
Even under 30's the risk is pretty low.

Now you have a very low risk from COVID and a very low risk from a vaccine.
When we were still in the wave they (the government) decided that the risk from vaccine (AZ) was too high.
Now that we're out of the peak, it is arguable that the risk of mRNA _might_ be higher than the risk from COVID19 for some people.

For myself I think it's clear cut that at in May, it was a no brainer to get vaccinated.
For <20's today, I'm not sure the risks are worth it.

I think that the risks of AZ were lower than the risk of COVID in May, (I took AZ), but I NOW think that for some people the risks of the vaccine may be higher than the risk of COVID for some people.

I think the anti-vaxxers are in general wrong, I think the governments were wrong to withdraw AZ, I think it's clearly wrong for those >30 to refuse vaccines today.

If you thought AZ was too dangerous then, but think mRNA isn't too dangerous now, you're not making data driven decisions.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

kcowan said:


> The renegades don't want to mask nor vaccinate nor be limited in their movements. It is a deadly combination.
> 
> Sadly the ultimate solution will be Darwin's Law unless their supporters turn them around and quickly!


 Perhaps they are fine with natural immunity. Life is all about choices.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> Now you have a very low risk from COVID and a very low risk from a vaccine.


These two aren't even in the same league. You're clearly influenced by the nonsense being flogged today by anti-vaxxers. The millions that have died and will continue to die of COVID compared to the miniscule risk of a problem from the vaccine today is not even comparable. There is simply no excuse for any reasonable person in good health to not get a vaccine.

ltr


----------



## sags

Ukrainiandude said:


> Perhaps they are fine with natural immunity. Life is all about choices.


Yea......they are fine until they get covid and then they are begging the doctors to give them the vaccine, like it is an instant cure.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Yea......they are fine until they get covid and then they are begging the doctors to give them the vaccine, like it is an instant cure.


 ... the doctor is going to say "next!" as in "next patient to see".


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> Yea......they are fine until they get covid and then they are begging the doctors to give them the vaccine, like it is an instant cure.


we both know that is simply not true.
Boomers are all vaccinated, most people who are unvaccinated are young people who will get sick likely asymptomatic or mild cold symptoms, extremely unlikely they will get to the point of hospitalization, and even less likely to die from it.


----------



## sags

World experts, including the "bat lady" in China are all saying the continuing spread of the virus due to the un-vaccinated is going to lead to new mutations.

They are extremely concerned that one of the mutations coming may be the "doomsday" variation.


----------



## sags

Ukrainiandude said:


> we both know that is simply not true.
> Boomers are all vaccinated, most people who are unvaccinated are young people who will get sick likely asymptomatic or mild cold symptoms, extremely unlikely they will get to the point of hospitalization, and even less likely to die from it.


Hospitals are filling up with young un-vaccinated patients, and they don't have mild cold symptoms.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> World experts, including the "bat lady" in China are all saying the continuing spread of the virus due to the un-vaccinated is going to lead to new mutations.
> 
> They are extremely concerned that one of the mutations coming may be the "doomsday" variation.


 Unlikely that humanity will cease to exist. But fairmongers will always be.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Do you have exact number for this? How many unvaccinated young get hospitalized per 100/1000/10000 etc ?


----------



## Beaver101

U.S. now averaging 100,000 new COVID-19 infections a day

The latest (August 7, 2021) with USA cases. Land of the brave and free.


----------



## sags

SInce 58% of Republicans refuse to take the vaccination, America is also the land of the Stupid Party.


----------



## sags

Ukrainiandude said:


> Do you have exact number for this? How many unvaccinated young get hospitalized per 100/1000/10000 etc ?


Yes......too many.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

One in a million is not too many. 
I am sure Canada can handle this.


sags said:


> Yes......too many.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> One in a million is not too many.
> I am sure Canada can handle this.


 ... all it took is "1" infection (one too many) to start this pandemic and see how we (as in mankind) is brilliantly handling this.


----------



## Eder

Counting infections is rendered pointless now that we have a vaccine. The only relevant statistic is the number of seriously ill completely vaccinated people. Of course that number won't panic enough people to be news worthy.


----------



## sags

You should turn on the news. The severity of the symptoms has increased and people are near panic mode........at least the ones with brains.


----------



## sags

Check out your favorite state of Hawaii........high level of vaccinations but the virus is raging on. Look at that spike in cases on the graph.

_Hawaii today saw 615 new confirmed and probable coronavirus cases, according to Lt. Gov. Josh Green in an Instagram post.

Approximately 195 patients are currently hospitalized with COVID-19 with a *positivity rate of 6.98%,* Green said. There were 101 new cases in Hawaii County, 67 in Maui County, 415 on Oahu and 17 in Kauai County, Green said.

“The delta variant will eventually drop off, but can’t come too soon,” he said. *“Our hospitals are going to be struggling, so please do your part.”*_










Hawaii sees 615 new infections and 2 coronavirus-related deaths as delta variant continues to spread


Hawaii today saw 615 new confirmed and probable coronavirus cases and two additional deaths, bringing the state’s totals since the start of the pandemic to 45,860 infections statwide and 542 coronavirus-related deaths.




www.staradvertiser.com


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> These two aren't even in the same league. You're clearly influenced by the nonsense being flogged today by anti-vaxxers. The millions that have died and will continue to die of COVID compared to the miniscule risk of a problem from the vaccine today is not even comparable. There is simply no excuse for any reasonable person in good health to not get a vaccine.


Yes they are in the same league, which is my point.

Remember I was one of the view people vocally complaining about the antivaxxers attacking AZ, which resulted in the eventual withdrawal in Canada.




https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid#case-fatality-rate-of-covid-19-by-age




https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/03/COVID-CFR-by-age-710x550.png




https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/03/Coronavirus-CFR-by-health-condition-in-China.png



If you have no health conditions and you're young (ie <20) your risks from COVID are exceptionally low. If you even get it.
Your risks from COVID19 vaccines are also exceptionally low. 

So both are really really low risks, I think it's a judgement call, and should be up to the user.

Remember I personally admonished people here in their 40's for not taking the AZ vaccine because the risk of COVID19 was higher than the AZ vaccine. 

On that one I was accused of minimizing the risks of the AZ vaccine (which are near zero)
Now you're accusing me of minimizing the risks of COVID19 for specific people (which are ALSO near zero for that population)

I'll just point out something that you're missing, no government in the world has approved a COVID19 vaccine for kids. The current view is that the risk of COVID19 for those people is lower than the risk of the vaccine.
This is the same as they were doing for teens, until they were confident it the vaccine is safe.

So yeah, I think the dividing line of risk between COVID and the vaccines is a bit murky. Because it is.
Finally I agree, everyone should get vaccinated, I simply accept that for some people the risk tradeoff isn't as obvious as others would like. This is also the position of the experts.

Finally what's my agenda here? I'm arguably the most pro-vaccine person on the forum. I think for most people the risk of vaccination is lower than the risk of not getting vaccinated. 

I simply think that people should have the right to choose.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> Finally I agree, everyone should get vaccinated,


Great, on that we agree.



MrMatt said:


> I think for most people the risk of vaccination is lower than the risk of not getting vaccinated.
> 
> I simply think that people should have the right to choose.


No, the thin thread of believability that the anti-vaxx cohort is holding onto has been broken and they only look like fools now. They should really know when to throw in the towel. This isn't some small vaccine trial where we can debate the efficacy numbers. 

This is the largest vaccine rollout in the history of mankind that has involved the entire world, and as a result, the vaccine effectiveness has revealed itself without question. It's a slam dunk. The vaccine works. The side effects are very minimal. 

Those that claim they want to wait to see what effects will occur long term can be rest assured that in the history of vaccines there has never been a negative effect that pops-up beyond two months. So we know the side effects of all the COVID vaccines already, and it's a very, very small number, so that's not an issue. 

Given the devastating results of the COVID virus and its ability to produce variants, and for some resulting in long term effects, why would anyone of sound mind turn down a vaccine that puts the rest of the population at risk?

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> This is the largest vaccine rollout in the history of mankind that has involved the entire world, and as a result, the vaccine effectiveness has revealed itself without question. It's a slam dunk. The vaccine works. The side effects are very minimal.


Death isn't "very minimal"
Virtually nobody under 10 has died from COVID, there is no vaccine declared safe for them either.
Are you saying that the governments are anti-vax? 




> Those that claim they want to wait to see what effects will occur long term can be rest assured that in the history of vaccines there has never been a negative effect that pops-up beyond two months. So we know the side effects of all the COVID vaccines already, and it's a very, very small number, so that's not an issue.


I agree.



> why would anyone of sound mind turn down a vaccine that puts the rest of the population at risk?


I don't know, ask the anti-vaxxers who were stopped the delivery of AZ, before and during the third wave.

I even suggested taking action against people bailing on appointments because it was AZ. 


Virtually nobody who gets vaccinated ends up dying from COVID19.

The only people left at risk of COVID19 are those who choose not to vaccinate.
So what's the problem, they're deciding for themselves, and taking the risk themselves.


I don't believe if forcing medical procedures "for your own good".
I am not convinced that the benefits to society are sufficient to intrude on human rights.

I'll just keep reiterating, I think most of the people who choose not to vaccinate are wrong. I just recognize it as a valid viewpoint.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> The only people left at risk of COVID19 are those who choose not to vaccinate.
> So what's the problem, they're deciding for themselves, and taking the risk themselves.


Those who "choose" not to be vaccinated are perpetuating this epidemic. They are variant factories allowing opportunity for the virus to mutate. This would be over if not for those selfish people who have decided to hold the rest of the world hostage.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> Those who "choose" not to be vaccinated are perpetuating this epidemic. They are variant factories allowing opportunity for the virus to mutate. This would be over if not for those selfish people who have decided to hold the rest of the world hostage.
> 
> ltr


Any evidence to support this?
In Canada 80% of eligible people are vaccinated, that should be more than enough for this to die off.

Really what we need to do is get the anti-vaxxer "experts" on board and figure out how to approve a vaccine for the millions of Canadians who can't get vaccinated today.

Those antivaxxers are the real problem.
Just like the [email protected]#$#@ heads who stopped AZ.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

like_to_retire said:


> Those who "choose" not to be vaccinated are perpetuating this epidemic. They are variant factories allowing opportunity for the virus to mutate. This would be over if not for those selfish people who have decided to hold the rest of the world hostage.
> 
> ltr


 This mutation will happen regardless of how many Canadians got vaccinated. There are many countries in the world where vaccination on the larger scale will never happen. And with Canada relying heavily on emigrant to support the growth and housing market, foreigners will be coming in with different viruses. 
Are you okay with stopping migration for several years?


----------



## like_to_retire

Ukrainiandude said:


> Are you okay with stopping for several years?


I would like to see them vaccinated first.

ltr


----------



## Ukrainiandude

like_to_retire said:


> I would like to see them vaccinated first.
> 
> ltr


Good idea chief 
*Fully vaccinated people who get a Covid-19 breakthrough infection can transmit the virus, CDC chief says
Our vaccines are working exceptionally well," Walensky told CNN's Wolf Blitzer. "They continue to work well for Delta, with regard to severe illness and death -- they prevent it. But what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission."*


----------



## Eder

Well here's the thing...its no big deal to transmit the virus if the infected person is vaccinated...simple. Of course if everyone was vaccinated there would be no virus to transmit. But ya gotta look out for Bill Gates microchip & that 5g thing am I right?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Eder said:


> Well here's the thing...its no big deal to transmit the virus if the infected person is vaccinated...simple.


Let me explain this again.
Many countries with low vaccination rates and are /will be creating new variants.
Vaccinated people from those countries or neighbouring countries are traveling to Canada (emigrants) and bringing those variants into Canada.

How vaccination rates in Canada are going to change this?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Israel tried. And I was saying from the beginning that vaccines are not go be easy to create for corona virus. The same problem exist in poultry with corona virus, virus constantly mutates and vaccines are being updated, so far virus is winning. There’s a reason why no successful vaccines were made for common cold corona virus. 

New restrictions to stem the spread of a renewed COVID-19 outbreak went into effect across Israel on Sunday, as serious cases surged to over 300 for the first time since April, according to the Health Ministry.

As of Saturday evening, 324 people were in serious condition from coronavirus infection, up from 257 on Thursday. Serious infections are a key metric used by decision-makers in the current wave.

The positive test rate on Friday was 3.79 percent with over 100,000 tests conducted.


The death toll also jumped, to 6,535, with 16 fatalities recorded over the weekend.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> Counting infections is rendered pointless now that we have a vaccine.


This is a dangerous view. There could be more variants, and current vaccines may not remain as effective as they are today.

If we all just return to old behaviours and let covid spread like wildfire -- unchecked -- then a vaccine-evading variant could creep in. With such high rates of transmission, huge numbers of people could end up in the hospitals and we'd have to immediately shut down everything again.

The other problem is that only 61% of Canadians are fully vaccinated at the moment. That means that something like 10 million adults in Canada still are vulnerable to the virus. This is a huge number!


----------



## OptsyEagle

Once Canada can get their vaccination rates, including previously infected, up to a level where the risk of a hospital shut down becomes minimal, then that is the point where we can let each Canadian decide for themselves, whether they want the protection of the vaccine or are willing to take the personal risk of virus infection.

Unfortuneately, at this time and point of vaccination, there are just too many people left unvaccinated to obtain the level of confidence we need to ensure our hospitals don't get overwhelmed. We cannot say for sure they will, since there are a lot of variables. The biggest one being the number of vaccinated people who will not need hospitalization due to covid. Also, the fact that the larger group of unvaccinated people are in the younger age groups. Unfortuneately, in my opinion, there is more then enough unvaccinated people in the older age groups to cause us a problem with our hospitals, when Canada succumbs to the colder weather, in the next few months, and our infections get more dangerous, for all age groups.

So unfortuneately this round, we cannot allow these unvaccinated people to cause that kind of concern/problem to our healthcare system. Unfortuneately there is more involved then just there own risk and safety. I wish it was just that. I believe once we get about 50% of the currently unvaccinated either vaccinated or recovered from infection, we can THEN let them decide for themselves what they perceive to be the higher risk to them alone. Right now they are deciding for all of us, not just themselves...and that cannot be allowed.

It is time for vaccine passports.


----------



## MK7GTI

like_to_retire said:


> Those who "choose" not to be vaccinated are perpetuating this epidemic. They are variant factories allowing opportunity for the virus to mutate. This would be over if not for those selfish people who have decided to hold the rest of the world hostage.
> 
> ltr


No they aren't. The media and the governments are.


----------



## like_to_retire

MK7GTI said:


> No they aren't. The media and the governments are.


 I see. I didn't know that.

But you got the vaccination right?

ltr


----------



## sags

If we know anything it is that each mutation of the virus makes it worse for us. There are no mutations that make it less infectious or with less symptoms.

In the past 2 years we have had several mutations....and now have the Delta as the dominant variation. Why would we think it will stop there ?

Early in the pandemic there was little talk of mutations. They were considered to happen over long periods of time, and not every few months.

The Delta variant is so different from the original Alpha variant, that scientists consider it a "new" virus.

We are fighting a war against the virus, and it isn't over yet. This is no time to pretend the virus will just go away on it's own.

Removing restrictions because people are tired of them is ceding ground to the virus and giving it the upper hand in the war.

Lighter restrictions removed today are gong to result in heavier restrictions enacted in the future.

We were never totally locked down as many other countries were, but we seem determined to drift in that direction.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> If we know anything it is that each mutation of the virus makes it worse for us. There are no mutations that make it less infectious or with less symptoms.
> 
> In the past 2 years we have had several mutations....and now have the Delta as the dominant variation. Why would we think it will stop there ?
> 
> Early in the pandemic there was little talk of mutations. They were considered to happen over long periods of time, and not every few months.
> 
> The Delta variant is so different from the original Alpha variant, that scientists consider it a "new" virus.
> 
> We are fighting a war against the virus, and it isn't over yet. This is no time to pretend the virus will just go away on it's own.
> 
> Removing restrictions because people are tired of them is ceding ground to the virus and giving it the upper hand in the war.


Sags. That again is nonsense. MOST mutations are less infectious and harmful to humans. There are millions of those happening all the time. Because they are less infectious, they get displaced by the more infectious ones, that we eventually hear about, due to the laws that Darwin put forward about survival of the fittest.

I know you want to believe that this killer mutation is coming, and it might happen, but there is more likelihood that it will not. Plus, the more severe the mutation gets, eventually it starts to defeat itself. It is very unlikely that we are not going to be wiped out by a virus. In any case, we will have plenty of time to deal with a new riskier mutation if it does ever come, and it is pretty hard to start reacting to something where we can't know the exact nature of the problems it will provide.

So with that in mind, the constant ranting about this apocalypse virus is just creating fear for no other benefit then to scare people. You really should try to put that one in check so that some of your other points, that might actually be relevant, have more acceptability by readers. Just a suggestion.


----------



## sags

Viruses do mutate all the time, but with small changes over long periods of time. This virus is different, according to the experts I have read.

They don't expect a virus to completely change into a new virus in a matter of months.

The "evolution" of this virus is creating a lot of fear among all the experts.

If you want to pretend it isn't likely it is your perogative, but in the opinion of most of the scientists it is very possible if the virus continues to spread.

Listen to the experts. The mutation of the virus is high on the list of their concerns.


----------



## MK7GTI

like_to_retire said:


> I see. I didn't know that.
> 
> But you got the vaccination right?
> 
> ltr


I’ve been double poked since mid March. I’m 31, no health issues to speak of, not allergic to anything. Hell, I’m running my first marathon next Sunday. I’m not concerned in the least about covid.
Don’t give me the but you can spread it to someone else and then they do the same and on and on. THAT WILL ALWAYS BE A POSSIBLY IF YOU ARE VACCINATED OR NOT. All you can do is get vaccinated and do your best to be in good health.
We MUST move forward now. We need to remove restrictions and and continue to vaccinate those who wish to do so. If people choose not to than that is their choice and they will live with the repercussions. I don’t care if they ‘plug up the hospitals and ICU’s’. So do smokers, drug addicts, and people who clearly have health issues due to being overweight.
I’m so glad to see Alberta moving forward as quickly as they are. It’s great news. Finally fighting back against the nonsense going on!
People like YOU and SAGS need to stop spreading bullshit or just never leave your house and be scared for the rest of your lives.


----------



## Money172375

Daily cases in Ontario have double over the last 10 days.

reproduction rate well over 1.0….currently 1.18. 

saw one forecast predicting 7000 cases a day by September.

1st vaccine recipients coming up on 6 months….let’s hope they last longer than that, but early reporting suggests 6 months and you start to lose effectiveness.

man, I thought the worst days were behind us…..hopefully deaths remain low, but I fear we’re in for another lockdown..


----------



## MyCatMittens

Money172375 said:


> .hopefully deaths remain low, but I fear we’re in for another lockdown..


"Through the end of July, Public Health Ontario said that only 0.5 per cent of new cases observed involved people who had received their second dose of a COVID-19 vaccine at least two weeks prior to testing positive, while 95 per cento of new cases involved completely unvaccinated people."

My personal thoughts - When the hospitalization/ICU rate among vaccinated individuals starts to increase, then we can talk about lockdowns. Until then, I'm good with vaccine passports, mandatory vaccination for high risk environments, public shaming...


----------



## sags

_I don’t care if they ‘plug up the hospitals and ICU’s’ _

What do you do when the un-vaccinated fill up the hospitals and you need emergency care from an accident, heart attack, stroke or some other reason ?

What do you do when you need surgery or treatment for cancer, but the operating rooms and cancer clinics are closed because they had to move the staff to the 24 hour a day intensive treatment of covid patients ?

Covid patients require a lot more care, and the wearing of PPE by doctors and nurses takes time. They have to dress and undress for each patient room.

If my wife has to go into a suite in the retirement home where there is any infected resident, even for the seasonal flu or a cold, she has to totally "gown up" with gown, gloves, mask, cap, face shield, and booties. Then she has to take it all off and put it into the bin to be burned or sterilized. She can't go room to room in the same protective gear, as it could spread the virus. It is even more complicated when they are as short staffed as they are.

It is far more complicated than......just let the un-vaccinated get sick and it will run it's course.

I understand the sentiment though. People don't care until something directly affects them, which they don't believe is going to happen.


----------



## MyCatMittens

sags said:


> _I don’t care if they ‘plug up the hospitals and ICU’s’ _
> 
> People don't care until something directly affects them


Definitely. I find the worse offenders are those that scream "lockdown! lockdown!" when it isn't their business/livelihoods on the line. Easy to say when you have little economically to lose.


----------



## MK7GTI

Please repeat after me…. overall survival rate is 98%, average age of covid related deaths is 80+… 

Anyone who is double vaccinated needs to take their chances and move on with life.


----------



## sags

As the dominant virus, the Delta numbers are the only ones that matter now.

_In Florida, __which has the second-highest rate of new cases per capita after Louisiana, children's hospitals and staff are "overwhelmed," said Dr. Aileen Marty, an infectious disease expert at Florida International University.

*"The numbers of cases in our hospitals in children and our children's hospitals are completely overwhelmed,*" Marty told CNN's Jim Sciutto on Friday evening.

"Our pediatricians, the nursing, the staff are exhausted, and the children are suffering. And it is absolutely devastating ... our children are very much affected. *We've never seen numbers like this before*," she said._









Officials split on masking children in schools as pediatric hospitals fill up with Covid-19 patients | CNN


The polarization surrounding mask mandates is deepening as some state and local officials spar on how to approach face coverings protocols in schools, a debate unfolding as more children contract Covid-19.




www.cnn.com


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Daily cases in Ontario have double over the last 10 days.
> 
> reproduction rate well over 1.0….currently 1.18.
> 
> saw one forecast predicting 7000 cases a day by September.
> 
> 1st vaccine recipients coming up on 6 months….let’s hope they last longer than that, but early reporting suggests 6 months and you start to lose effectiveness.
> 
> man, I thought the worst days were behind us…..hopefully deaths remain low, but I fear we’re in for another lockdown..


7000 cases a day by September? I'd love to see those predictions.

Also second doses are available for everyone now, most countries are considering boosters for high risk individuals.


----------



## sags

_Hawaii has one of the country’s most comprehensive mask mandates and a highly effective vaccine campaign. 

Despite that, Covid-19 cases on the islands are climbing with a ferocity that’s outstripping every other U.S. state. _





__





Hawaii, Masked and Vaccinated, Still Falls Prey to Delta Strain






www.msn.com





_“The situation is critical,” Public Health Medical Director Desmar Walkes said in a statement Saturday, warning of a “catastrophe” as it sent the notification to residents at noon through text messages, emails and phone calls. “Our hospitals are severely stressed and there is little we can do to alleviate their burden with the surging cases.” _





__





U.S. City With 2.4 Million Population Has Just Six ICU Beds Left






www.msn.com


----------



## sags

The 7,000 estimate for daily infections by Ontario may end up being a low ball number.

There are still a lot of un-vaccinated people wandering around spreading the virus. Schools are scheduled to open.

Children under the age of 12 are still not vaccinated, so they are at a higher level of risk from the Delta virus.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> The 7,000 estimate for daily infections by Ontario may end up being a low ball number.
> 
> There are still a lot of un-vaccinated people wandering around spreading the virus. Schools are scheduled to open.
> 
> Children under the age of 12 are still not vaccinated, so they are at a higher level of risk from the Delta virus.


 There’s no difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated both wandering around spreading the virus.

CNN)Fully vaccinated people who get a Covid-19 breakthrough infection can transmit the virus, US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said Thursday. 
"Our vaccines are working exceptionally well," Walensky told CNN's Wolf Blitzer. "They continue to work well for Delta, with regard to severe illness and death -- they prevent it. But what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission."


----------



## MK7GTI

sags said:


> _Hawaii has one of the country’s most comprehensive mask mandates and a highly effective vaccine campaign.
> 
> Despite that, Covid-19 cases on the islands are climbing with a ferocity that’s outstripping every other U.S. state. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hawaii, Masked and Vaccinated, Still Falls Prey to Delta Strain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _“The situation is critical,” Public Health Medical Director Desmar Walkes said in a statement Saturday, warning of a “catastrophe” as it sent the notification to residents at noon through text messages, emails and phone calls. “Our hospitals are severely stressed and there is little we can do to alleviate their burden with the surging cases.” _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. City With 2.4 Million Population Has Just Six ICU Beds Left
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com


Look at you go. Just continuing to spread news with no rhyme or reason behind it. Don't you have anything better to do with your time? Just as bad as MSM.


----------



## sags

Right......and in your world none of this is happening.

All the beds in hospitals are full with Covid patients and other people can't get emergency care.

Hospital ERs are overflowing as patients wait to be seen. The fatality rates are climbing quickly.....but never mind all that.

People who were previously infected are not immune from the Delta virus. They are twice as likely to get infected as vaccinated people.

So much for the "herd immunity" theory.









'All the beds are taken up by Covid victims': Hospitals in the South are running out of space or staff | CNN


Covid-19 hospitalizations are reaching all-time highs in parts of the South, with some patients unable to get the care they would normally receive.




www.cnn.com


----------



## Beaver101

^ Some people are humanoids on this planet call Earth.


----------



## MK7GTI

sags said:


> Right......and in your world none of this is happening.
> 
> All the beds in hospitals are full with Covid patients and other people can't get emergency care.
> 
> Hospital ERs are overflowing as patients wait to be seen. The fatality rates are climbing quickly.....but never mind all that.
> 
> People who were previously infected are not immune from the Delta virus. They are twice as likely to get infected as vaccinated people.
> 
> So much for the "herd immunity" theory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'All the beds are taken up by Covid victims': Hospitals in the South are running out of space or staff | CNN
> 
> 
> Covid-19 hospitalizations are reaching all-time highs in parts of the South, with some patients unable to get the care they would normally receive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


I feel like going forward anytime someone posts about Covid they should post their age and location so we can better understand their biases. Clearly, you are in the older demographic.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> All the beds in hospitals are full with Covid patients and other people can't get emergency care.
> 
> Hospital ERs are overflowing as patients wait to be seen. The fatality rates are climbing quickly.....but never mind all that.


Many US hospitals are indeed becoming full of covid patients.

If something similar happens in Canada, and if it means other people cannot be seen for non-covid medical conditions, then we have a serious problem and need heavy restrictions to limit the covid spread.

This hasn't happened in Canada but we have to keep an eye on the numbers and adjust accordingly. @sags I'm sure you aware of this, but the Ontario numbers look very good at the moment. There is no problem today. I'm just thinking ahead 3 to 6 months.


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> 7000 cases a day by September? I'd love to see those predictions.
> 
> Also second doses are available for everyone now, most countries are considering boosters for high risk individuals.


Dr. Christopher leighton, although he later said it was spit ball math. 
according to Ryan Imgrund….local respected bio-statistician, Canada’s reproduction rate is currently highest in the world. Good news - 85% of cases are amongst unvaccinated in Ontario.

A


----------



## sags

Strip clubs in Ontario have more covid protections in place than are slated for schools.

The teachers should lobby for equal workplace protection as strippers.

Good to know the Ontario government has their priorities in order.









'Ironic' that strip club has more COVID-19 protection than Ontario schools: manager


A Toronto gentleman’s club has required mandatory vaccines for patrons for three weeks now, and according to the manager, his staff feel much safer and there have been no complaints.




toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Beaver101

^ You see ON's education minister S. Lecce has been working "hard" at his job. How do you like the latest idea of "upgrading the HVAC systems" of the schools so as to "prevent" Covid transmission ... LMAO.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> The teachers should lobby for equal workplace protection


Teachers are vaccinated, vaccinated means protected.
I getting tired of this mantra about unprotected.
You got a shots of vaccine and you protected.


----------



## sags

Beaver101 said:


> ^ You see ON's education minister S. Lecce has been working "hard" at his job. How do you like the latest idea of "upgrading the HVAC systems" of the schools so as to "prevent" Covid transmission ... LMAO.


What a joke..........the schools open in a couple of weeks and they are just now going to upgrade all the HVAC systems ?


----------



## sags

The super spreader schools open in a few weeks. Then the school closures will start a couple weeks later, after the COVID percolates nicely.


----------



## damian13ster

like_to_retire said:


> All your strawman analogies don't apply. The unvaccinated are holding the rest of Canada hostage. Their misinformed stance on getting vaccinated is harmful to the population and the economy. The belief that a vaccination is more dangerous than the COVID virus is not backed up by any available data. As the unvaccinated die in hospitals they come to realize their mistake too late.
> 
> ltr


No, they are not.
Vaccinated spread exactly the same as unvaccinated.
Only scientific reason to violate human rights is now gone with Delta variant.
Vaccinated spread the virus exactly the same as unvaccinated.
Only person an unvaccinated hurts is themselves.

Until stupidity is made illegal and is enough of a reason to lock a person down or violate their rights - there is zero arguments for segregation based on COVID vaccine passports. Vaccine protects only those who get it. It no longer protects rest of society.

Will you now force fat people to be locked down from fast-food restaurant, undergo mandatory liposuction because they single-handedly account for vast majority of hospital bed usage? This is literally equivalent of what you are suggesting now for medical procedure that does help yourself but noone else in the society as it DOESNT STOP THE SPREAD.


----------



## sags

Wrong.......vaccinated people only transmit the virus after they are infected. The "breakthrough" rate of infections among the vaccinated is very low.


Vaccines remain highly effective at preventing severe disease.
*Breakthrough infections among vaccinated individuals remain uncommon.*
The majority of new COVID-19 infections in the US are among unvaccinated people. 









New Data on COVID-19 Transmission by Vaccinated Individuals | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health


While new data show that vaccinated people can carry high viral loads of SARS-CoV-2, vaccines still prevent the worst outcomes from COVID-19.




www.jhsph.edu


----------



## kcowan

damian13ster said:


> ...This is literally equivalent of what you are suggesting now for medical procedure that does help yourself but noone else in the society as it DOESNT STOP THE SPREAD.


And what do you say about forcing everyone to wear masks?


----------



## like_to_retire

damian13ster said:


> Only person an unvaccinated hurts is themselves.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Wrong.......vaccinated people only transmit the virus after they are infected. The "breakthrough" rate of infections among the vaccinated is very low.
> 
> 
> Vaccines remain highly effective at preventing severe disease.
> *Breakthrough infections among vaccinated individuals remain uncommon.*
> The majority of new COVID-19 infections in the US are among unvaccinated people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Data on COVID-19 Transmission by Vaccinated Individuals | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health
> 
> 
> While new data show that vaccinated people can carry high viral loads of SARS-CoV-2, vaccines still prevent the worst outcomes from COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.jhsph.edu


There’s a difference between breakthrough _infections_ and breakthrough _disease_.

Breakthrough infections occur when a fully vaccinated person tests positive for the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Breakthrough disease occurs when a fully vaccinated person experiences symptoms of COVID-19 disease.

Vaccines remain highly effective at preventing severe disease, breakthrough infections and disease among vaccinated individuals remain uncommon, and most of the new COVID-19 cases in the U.S. are among unvaccinated people.

Still, the exact rates of breakthrough cases are unknown at this time because cases may be asymptomatic and, *until recently, the CDC didn’t recommend that vaccinated people be tested following exposure. For this reason, updated guidance states that vaccinated people should resume wearing a mask in indoor public areas, especially where there is high transmission of COVID-19.*

Yes, if you don't test, you won't find infections.
Do you question CDC when they say that vaccinations don't protect from infections or spread?
Are you science-denier?

Vaccines protect from disease, not infection. 
They protect an individual taking the vaccine, and for that reason should be encouraged.
They don't protect rest of the society - and for that reason they shouldn't be coerced.
You can't segregate society for 'greater good', if there is no greater good coming from vaccination. Benefit is on individual level, not societal


----------



## damian13ster

like_to_retire said:


> View attachment 21965


Ok. Segregate fat people! Not allowed into restaurant. Mandatory lipo-suctions. In extreme cases mandatory stomach size reduction.
If you don't agree to either of those medical procedures, you are excluded from any health care treatment.

Sounds good? Follows exactly same logic you are doing. It is equally stupid.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

So much for vaccines 
Canada is few months behind Israel with vaccines administration. I predict it will be here in November and December.

The number of serious coronavirus cases in Israel has continued to climb as the government tightened restrictions in a bid to contain the outbreak of the delta variant across the country.


According to Health Ministry data released on Monday, the number of seriously-ill coronavirus patients climbed to 360.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> What a joke..........the schools open in a couple of weeks and they are just now going to upgrade all the HVAC systems ?


 ... I'm guessing it's going to take them the rest of the year for the "upgrade" which I think is a waste of $$$ to start with. You know, Lecce gotta to a job or got a job to do. Flip-flopper


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Ok. Segregate fat people! Not allowed into restaurant. Mandatory lipo-suctions. In extreme cases mandatory stomach size reduction.
> If you don't agree to either of those medical procedures, you are excluded from any health care treatment.
> 
> Sounds good? Follows exactly same logic you are doing. It is equally stupid.


 ... don't forget to add the junk and drunk(ies).


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> No they're not, if you're vaccinated, you're relatively safe.
> 
> 
> Really, the data I've seen shows that even unvaccinated the risk to those under 20 is virtually zero, even if you get COVID19.
> Even under 30's the risk is pretty low.
> 
> Now you have a very low risk from COVID and a very low risk from a vaccine.
> When we were still in the wave they (the government) decided that the risk from vaccine (AZ) was too high.
> Now that we're out of the peak, it is arguable that the risk of mRNA _might_ be higher than the risk from COVID19 for some people.
> 
> For myself I think it's clear cut that at in May, it was a no brainer to get vaccinated.
> For <20's today, I'm not sure the risks are worth it.
> 
> I think that the risks of AZ were lower than the risk of COVID in May, (I took AZ), but I NOW think that for some people the risks of the vaccine may be higher than the risk of COVID for some people.
> 
> I think the anti-vaxxers are in general wrong, I think the governments were wrong to withdraw AZ, I think it's clearly wrong for those >30 to refuse vaccines today.
> 
> If you thought AZ was too dangerous then, but think mRNA isn't too dangerous now, you're not making data driven decisions.


Isn't this an argument for allowing drunk driving?

After all, your average risk from drunk drivers is relatively low, and the drunk driver faces far greater risks than 'the public' since they will be involved in all collisions they cause. So I don't think 'relative risk reduction' cuts it as an argument.

The risk from COVID is only low when background levels of infection are low. As a vaccinated person, I would not necessarily want to be rolling the dice with an 80-90% effective vaccine.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Any evidence to support this?
> In Canada 80% of eligible people are vaccinated, that should be more than enough for this to die off.
> 
> Really what we need to do is get the anti-vaxxer "experts" on board and figure out how to approve a vaccine for the millions of Canadians who can't get vaccinated today.
> 
> Those antivaxxers are the real problem.
> Just like the [email protected]#$#@ heads who stopped AZ.


If this were true, why are infections and hospitalizations rising in Ontario?


----------



## andrewf

MyCatMittens said:


> "Through the end of July, Public Health Ontario said that only 0.5 per cent of new cases observed involved people who had received their second dose of a COVID-19 vaccine at least two weeks prior to testing positive, while 95 per cento of new cases involved completely unvaccinated people."
> 
> My personal thoughts - When the hospitalization/ICU rate among vaccinated individuals starts to increase, then we can talk about lockdowns. Until then, I'm good with vaccine passports, mandatory vaccination for high risk environments, public shaming...


What if hopsital capacity is saturated by rampant infection among unvaccinated individuals? Let them die on the hospital steps so the vaccinated can continue to receive routine care?

You have to game these scenarios out. We're not going to let the unvaccinated rot when push comes to shove, so health care resources will remain a problem. And it seems that vaccinated people can spread it, so any return to normalcy will see above 1 reproductive number spread and a ballooning of cases among the unvaccinated. Lockdown is inevitable. Fourth wave is already underway.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> 7000 cases a day by September? I'd love to see those predictions.
> 
> Also second doses are available for everyone now, most countries are considering boosters for high risk individuals.


Cases have doubled in 10 days. 400, 800, 1600, 3200, 6400 puts 7k at around 40 days from now. Keep in mind that more and more people will be returning to school, daycare, work.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Fourteen Israelis have been diagnosed with COVID-19 despite having been inoculated with a third COVID-19 vaccine dose, according to Health Ministry data reported by Channel 12 news on Sunday.

According to the network, two of those infected after receiving the booster shot have been hospitalized.

It was not immediately clear whether the 14 contracted the virus before or after receiving the booster. Such sporadic instances would not be enough for medical officials to draw conclusions as to the third dose’s general effectiveness in fighting off the Delta variant of the disease.


Eleven of the 14 cases were over the age of 60, and the remaining three were immunocompromised individuals under 60, the network said. The two that were hospitalized were over 60.

Some 420,000 Israelis have been administered a third booster shot so far, in a drive that began last week.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Cases have doubled in 10 days. 400, 800, 1600, 3200, 6400 puts 7k at around 40 days from now. Keep in mind that more and more people will be returning to school, daycare, work.


oh no
then 14, 28k, 56k, 112k, and then 224k within 3 months!!!


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> If this were true, why are infections and hospitalizations rising in Ontario?


Because it seems that COVID spreads even if you're vaccinated.

So get the anti-vaxxers off their [email protected]#$ and let us vaccinate kids.

I can't believe the people who are so hostile to those who are hesistating while millions of Canadians are STILL pleading for permission to get an injection.
Get those antivaxxer aholes out of office, and get a vaccine out to EVERYONE.

Oh remember back in the spring when I said the government had no plan to vaccinate everyone, guess what, they still have no plan.


Really, why are we wasting resources trying to convince people to do what "we" want them to, when we should be focusing on ensuring proper health care and vaccines are available to all Canadians.


Also to the Antivaxxers who thought it was okay to walk out on an AZ shot, thanks for feeding the antivax movement.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

I am glad I did not get the second dose, as Israeli experience shows 
Covid won.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> I am glad I did not get the second dose, as Israeli experience shows
> Covid won.


Israeli experience shows that fully vaccinated people have less chance to get sick and less chance to be in a critical position or die


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> oh no
> then 14, 28k, 56k, 112k, and then 224k within 3 months!!!


If we do nothing to reduce reproductive number. As it stands now, we're is loosening phase and increasing contacts between individuals.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> Israeli experience shows that fully vaccinated people have less chance to get sick and less chance to be in a critical position or die


Fully vaccinated people those who got two or three shots?


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Daily cases in Ontario have double over the last 10 days.
> 
> reproduction rate well over 1.0….currently 1.18.
> 
> saw one forecast predicting 7000 cases a day by September.
> 
> 1st vaccine recipients coming up on 6 months….let’s hope they last longer than that, but early reporting suggests 6 months and you start to lose effectiveness.
> 
> man, *I thought the worst days were behind us…..hopefully deaths remain low, but I fear we’re in for another lockdown..*


I doubt there will be another stay-at-home order, I'm afraid Ford can send us in reverse to Phase 2 and Phase 1 .
By the way, starting today , fully vaccinated Americans can come to Canada by land! If borders would be opened 2 weeks earlier, All blame for spike in cases would be attributed to Americans.
P.S. my wife family is coming to visit us in 1 week by car from CT. It would be interesting experience for them to cross border


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> If we do nothing to reduce reproductive number. As it stands now, we're is loosening phase and increasing contacts between individuals.


We won't get to 250k new cases a day


----------



## gibor365

Interesting that 1.5B Covid producer has just 100 cases per day on average! Maybe China has some real Covid "antidote" for internal use?!


----------



## bgc_fan

gibor365 said:


> Interesting that 1.5B Covid producer has just 100 cases per day on average! Maybe China has some real Covid "antidote" for internal use?!


Doubt it. Besides the questionable accuracy of numbers, they also lock down hard when there's a covid case. Millions are again under lockdown in China because of the delta variant


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> Interesting that 1.5B Covid producer has just 100 cases per day on average! Maybe China has some real Covid "antidote" for internal use?!


 ... yes they do and that would include laser-focused contact tracings, lockdowns, restrictions, anti-moral/no human rights anti-dotes, etc. known as "nothing that you want to hear about" and aka "all those tools that would freak you out."


----------



## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> Doubt it. Besides the questionable accuracy of numbers, they also lock down hard when there's a covid case. Millions are again under lockdown in China because of the delta variant


Maybe those are "fake numbers" ....hell knows, but even if millions under lockdown in country of more than 1.5 billions .... 100 cases per day?!


----------



## Beaver101

^ You don't believe them in the first place so why does it matter?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

An Israeli doctor says that the majority of COVID-19 patients hospitalized at his hospital are fully vaccinated and those with severe illness have also been vaccinated.
Talking with Channel 13 TV News on Aug. 5, Dr. Kobi Haviv, medical director of Herzog Hospital in Jerusalem said that “85 to 90 percent of the hospitalizations are in fully vaccinated people,” and “*95 percent of the severe patients are vaccinated.*” Herzog Hospital specializes in nursing care for the elderly.

Haviv said the rising cases of vaccinated people getting COVID-19, a disease caused by the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus is because “the effectiveness of the vaccine is waning.”










Majority of Hospitalized COVID-19 Patients at Hospital in Israel Are Fully Vaccinated: Doctor


An Israeli doctor says that the majority of COVID-19 patients hospitalized at his hospital are fully vaccinated and ...




www.theepochtimes.com


----------



## Beaver101

The above is music to BioNTech (and its shareholders), developer of the world's most used Covid vaccine:

BioNTech says repeat doses remain better strategy than adapting its COVID-19 vaccine to new variants


----------



## bgc_fan

Beaver101 said:


> The above is music to BioNTech (and its shareholders), developer of the world's most used Covid vaccine:
> 
> BioNTech says repeat doses remain better strategy than adapting its COVID-19 vaccine to new variants


Boy, that explains why their share price is going through the roof lately.


----------



## bgc_fan

gibor365 said:


> Maybe those are "fake numbers" ....hell knows, but even if millions under lockdown in country of more than 1.5 billions .... 100 cases per day?!


When the original stories came out, they were downplaying the amount of deaths, although there were indications that there were a lot more dying then reported.

Is 100 cases reasonable? Maybe. When you start cutting off all traffic to cities that report a case, have everyone stay isolated indoors, and go with aggressive testing and contact tracing to isolate, it's possible to keep numbers down. The fact that they can trace the original source of the infection to a specific airline worker does mean that they are really good at tracing and isolating.

Of course, the other possibility is that their test kits are throwing false negatives.


----------



## bgc_fan

On the lighter side of the news. I don't know how much credibility anti-vaxxers have when they don't know how to use google, and stage a protest/takeover of a BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) HQ. Too bad they were 8 years too late. Anti-vaccine protesters storm BBC HQ – years after it moved out


----------



## Plugging Along

Ukrainiandude said:


> I am glad I did not get the second dose, as Israeli experience shows
> Covid won.


This comment does not make sense. If Isreal didn't get a second shot, they would be even in worst shape. A single shot is somewhere between 30-60% effective whereas a double is up to 92% effective from being infected (even higher for severe outcomes). 92% is better than 30 or 60? Why wouldn't one get the second shot? 

BTW.... I posted that my friends dad got infected after only one shot, he's still in ICU since May.


----------



## gibor365

Plugging Along said:


> This comment does not make sense. If Isreal didn't get a second shot, they would be even in worst shape. A single shot is somewhere between 30-60% effective whereas a double is up to 92% effective from being infected (even higher for severe outcomes). 92% is better than 30 or 60? Why wouldn't one get the second shot?
> 
> BTW.... I posted that my friends dad got infected after only one shot, he's still in ICU since May.


Curious, who is "Isreal"?!


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> BTW.... I posted that my friends dad got infected after only one shot, he's still in ICU since May.


Sorry to hear about that. That's terrible.

The second shot is quite important. It stimulates the production of different kind of immunity cells in the body which gives a more complete and longer lasting immunity. It's not just a slight strengthening of immunity.

By the way, hospitalizations are now on the rise in Alberta & BC. In a month or so we should get a better picture of just how badly the hospitalizations are increasing. By then they will be increasing in Ontario too.


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> Doubt it. Besides the questionable accuracy of numbers, they also lock down hard when there's a covid case. Millions are again under lockdown in China because of the delta variant


You have to realize that China is completely willing to harm significant numbers of people for the "Greater Good".

They, and those who admire them (like Trudeau) really have no concept of human rights, they simply do what they want.


----------



## MrMatt

Oh, just to cause more trouble.








Vaccine hesitancy: StatCan says Black, Latinx Canadians least willing to take COVID-19 shot


Higher vaccine hesitancy persists among Black Canadians when compared to the general public, with Latinx, Arab, and Métis people only being slightly more willing to get the COVID-19 vaccine, according to Statistics Canada.




www.ctvnews.ca





Non whites are choosing not to get vaccinated at a higher rate.
Not surprising since the government has a pretty bad history with the treatment of non-whites by "health care" providers. 

There are already people (lefties) who are opposing vaccine passports, because it's simply another tool to keep down BIPOC**. Oh and this is "systemic racism" by their definition, not because the policy is actually racist, simply because it impacts some groups more.


----------



## bgc_fan

Well, this is good news. But I'm sure people will complain about giving money to Moderna to set up a manufacturing plant in Canada. Moderna to agree to build mRNA vaccine production facility in Canada


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> You have to realize that China is completely willing to harm significant numbers of people for the "Greater Good".
> 
> They, and those who admire them (like Trudeau) really have no concept of human rights, they simply do what they want.


I'm pretty sure that was implied with my comment about the stringent lockdown.


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> Well, this is good news. But I'm sure people will complain about giving money to Moderna to set up a manufacturing plant in Canada. Moderna to agree to build mRNA vaccine production facility in Canada


Absolutely.
I'd like to see the terms of the deal, but simple handouts no.

I have nothing wrong with them paying to have "reserve capacity", or something else that's of strategic importance to Canada. But a simple handout to expand, no.


----------



## Plugging Along

gibor365 said:


> Curious, who is "Isreal"?!


Fast typo With fat fingers on tablet. I think you can Figure it out.


----------



## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> Well, this is good news. But I'm sure people will complain about giving money to Moderna to set up a manufacturing plant in Canada. Moderna to agree to build mRNA vaccine production facility in Canada


And what with Novavax factory Trudeau is building in QC?! 

Bad news about Moderna factory here.... Our government will now push even harder to mix vaccines


----------



## bgc_fan

gibor365 said:


> And what with Novavax factory Trudeau is building in QC?!
> 
> Bad news about Moderna factory here.... Our government will now push even harder to mix vaccines


Having multiple domestic suppliers isn't a bad thing. You can look at Australia which was betting the farm on domestic production of AZ, which fell apart and now they're behind the 8-ball when it comes to vaccines. Novavax still isn't approved yet, but by the time it is up and running, I imagine most will be exported or we get booster shots out of it.

mRNA offers a lot more possibilities than just flu/covid vaccines. They've been researching its usage for cancer and HIV. If that research matures and ends up being successful, we'll have a domestic source without worrying about export restrictions.


----------



## sags

There are other vaccine facilities for other vaccines (seasonal flu etc) being expanded in Canada as well.

The vaccine manufacturers become very interested when the Liberals set aside over $2 billion support for vaccine production.

With the volume of expected production most of it is going to be exported. Moderna alone is expected to produce 300 million shots a year.

The cost of imported vaccines weighed heavily on our balance of trade. Investing capital does have big payoffs when done right.

We had a sizeable trade surplus which would have been much larger if we exported vaccine instead of importing them.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

LONDON — Herd immunity is “not a possibility” with the current spread of the Delta variant due to it still infecting vaccinated individuals, the head of the Oxford Vaccine Group Andrew Pollard said Tuesday.
unlike measles — where 95 percent vaccination of the population would stop transmission — the same couldn’t be said for coronavirus spread by the Delta variants.
*I suspect that what the virus will throw up next is a variant which is perhaps even better at transmitting in vaccinated populations.*


----------



## sags

Herd immunity was never a viable solution.

My main concern is the catastrophic situation developing in the US.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

IN DEPTH ANALYSIS
INFLUENCE THE INFLUENCERS: COVID VACCINE OPERATION FROM RUSSIA
By Ben Nimmo, Global IO Threat Intelligence Lead, and the IO Threat Intelligence Team
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY:
We removed 65 Facebook accounts and 243 Instagram accounts for violating our policy against foreign interference, which is coordinated inauthentic behavior on behalf of a foreign entity. This network operated across over a dozen platforms and forums but failed to build an audience. It originated in Russia and targeted audiences primarily in India, Latin America and, to a much lesser extent, the United States. Our investigation found links between this campaign and Fazze, a subsidiary of a UK-registered marketing firm, whose operations were primarily conducted from Russia. Fazze is now banned from our platform.
This campaign came in two distinct waves, separated by five months of inactivity. First, in November and December 2020, the network posted memes and comments claiming that the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine would turn people into chimpanzees. Five months later, in May 2021, it questioned the safety of the Pfizer vaccine by posting an allegedly hacked and leaked AstraZeneca document. It is noteworthy that both phases coincided with periods when a number of governments, including in Latin America, India and the United States, were reportedly discussing the emergency authorizations for these respective vaccines.


https://about.fb.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/July-2021-CIB-Report.pdf


----------



## like_to_retire

Ukrainiandude said:


> Herd immunity is “not a possibility” with the current spread of the Delta variant due to it still infecting vaccinated individuals, the head of the Oxford Vaccine Group Andrew Pollard said Tuesday.


The Ontario Health Ministry has rearranged its daily reporting website to not emphasis "cases" because those who are vaccinated don't generally get very sick. The website will be comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated cases and hospital admissions.

"_Ontario to focus on reporting hospitalizations, ICU admissions instead of COVID-19 daily case counts.
Roughly 80 per cent of the cases are in unvaccinated and partially vaccinated people."_

Of course the large majority of these hospital admissions are unvaccinated, and they've unfortunately brought it onto themselves.

ltr


----------



## Money172375

like_to_retire said:


> The Ontario Health Ministry has rearranged its daily reporting website to not emphasis "cases" because those who are vaccinated don't generally get very sick. The website will be comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated cases and hospital admissions.
> 
> "_Ontario to focus on reporting hospitalizations, ICU admissions instead of COVID-19 daily case counts.
> Roughly 80 per cent of the cases are in unvaccinated and partially vaccinated people."_
> 
> Of course the large majority of these hospital admissions are unvaccinated, and they've unfortunately brought it onto themselves.
> 
> ltr


keep in mind, the denominator in these calculations. There are much







fewer unvaccinated people, so the case RATE is much higher.


----------



## sags

Looking at those stats.......vaccinations don't look like as much protection as people presume, especially as the vaccine protection wears off.

My wife was fully vaccinated in April and it sounds like she should be getting a booster shot soon or won't have any more protection than the un-vaccinated.

That is discouraging data actually.


----------



## bgc_fan

sags said:


> Looking at those stats.......vaccinations don't look like as much protection as people presume, especially as the vaccine protection wears off.
> 
> My wife was fully vaccinated in April and it sounds like she should be getting a booster shot soon or won't have any more protection than the un-vaccinated.
> 
> That is discouraging data actually.


Context though. Those that are fully vaccinated and in the ICU are most likely the elderly (though not sure if there is an age breakdown), while those unvaccinated are likely younger, who are supposed to be less affected by covid. If the elderly weren't overwhelmingly vaccinated, I bet the unvaccinated numbers would be a lot higher, just think about the first and second wave which impacted the more vulnerable first. Right now covid is impacting the least vulnerable, so their case:ICU/hospitalization rate is going to be relatively lower.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> That is discouraging data actually.


Aug 10 for Unvaccinated+Partial vaccinated, *5.33 mil people, with 321 cases and 74 total in Hospital or ICU.*

Aug 10 for Fully vaccinated, *9.42 mil people, with 78 cases and 19 in hospital or ICU.*

Seems like the vaccine is working.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

like_to_retire said:


> Aug 10 for Unvaccinated+Partial vaccinated, *5.33 mil people, with 321 cases and 74 total in Hospital or ICU.*
> 
> Aug 10 for Fully vaccinated, *9.42 mil people, with 78 cases and 19 in hospital or ICU.*
> 
> Seems like the vaccine is working.


0.2 and 0.1 icu rate per 100,000 for unvaccinated and vaccinated people.
Not really that big of a difference between


----------



## damian13ster

like_to_retire said:


> Aug 10 for Unvaccinated+Partial vaccinated, *5.33 mil people, with 321 cases and 74 total in Hospital or ICU.*
> 
> Aug 10 for Fully vaccinated, *9.42 mil people, with 78 cases and 19 in hospital or ICU.*
> 
> Seems like the vaccine is working.


Looking at cases is useless. Vaccinated people don't need to get tested.
Need to look at hospitalizations and ICUs.
More in hospitals for unvaccinated
ICU rates even for unvaccinated vs partially&fully vaccinated
Both statistics adjusted for population.

This is extremely discouraging:








Need to be aware this is data just for 2 days so statistically pretty useless


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> 0.2 and 0.1 icu rate per 100,000 for unvaccinated and vaccinated people.
> Not really that big of a difference between


 ... I would agree that looking at "rates" is dumb ... like splitting hair that only statisticians like to dabble with.

Just an overall look shows the unvaccinated population is half of that of the vaccinateds and yet they have about 3.5 to 4 times the cases with about the same multiples #s requiring hospitalization and in ICUs. Obviously there's a problem with the "unvaccinated" population and with the inbetweens (partially vaccinated) sitting on the fence (aka can't make up their mind) or to lazy to get fully vaccinated. Getting a partial jab is like doing a half-assed job, IMO.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> 0.2 and 0.1 icu rate per 100,000 for unvaccinated and vaccinated people.
> Not really that big of a difference between


How did you come up with those 0.1 and 0.2?! It's 13.9 per M for unvax and 2.01 per M for vaccinated. 
The difference is huge 700%


----------



## gibor365

_Provincial health officials recorded 324 new cases. Ontario Health Minister Christine Elliott said* 234 cases today are in unvaccinated individuals and 32 are in partially vaccinated people.*

"The vaccine is not perfect but it is really excellent. What you see is there will be some breakthrough cases but when you think about the situation we are in, you know how many people are fully vaccinated, these cases are nearly all of them mild," Jüni said.

"The challenge is that the people who are not vaccinated or partially vaccinated only, they have then really a much higher risk, 10 to 25 times higher risk, to end up in a hospital or ICU and that's the real issue here."_
So, only 58 cases in fully vaccinated ppl comparing to 266 for unvaccinated (and about 75% are fully vaccinated). If Elliot is not lying, the difference is huge


----------



## gibor365

Bad news for moderna








Moderna slips as EU regulator cites more side effects possibly linked to COVID-19 shot


Moderna (MRNA) has dropped sharply for the second consecutive session as the European drugs regulator pointed to three more conditions developed by a small number of people...




seekingalpha.com






_The Pharmacovigilance Risk Assessment Committee (PRAC) of European Medicines Agency (EMA) has started an assessment of Erythema multiforme, nephrotic syndrome, and glomerulonephritis experienced by some recipients of the vaccine._


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Money172375 said:


> keep in mind, the denominator in these calculations. There are much
> View attachment 21985
> fewer unvaccinated people, so the case RATE is much higher.





gibor365 said:


> How did you come up with those 0.1 and 0.2?! It's 13.9 per M for unvax and 2.01 per M for vaccinated.
> The difference is huge 700%


----------



## like_to_retire

Health Canada COVID-19 daily epidemiology update.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Bad news for Moderna and Pfizer 
EUROPE’S drugs regulator is looking into three new conditions to assess whether they may be possible side-effects related to Covid-19 vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna following a small number of cases.

Erythema multiforme, a form of allergic skin reaction, and glomerulonephritis and nephrotic syndrome, disorders related to kidneys, are being studied by the safety committee of the European Medicines Agency (EMA), according to the regulator.


gibor365 said:


> Bad news for moderna
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moderna slips as EU regulator cites more side effects possibly linked to COVID-19 shot
> 
> 
> Moderna (MRNA) has dropped sharply for the second consecutive session as the European drugs regulator pointed to three more conditions developed by a small number of people...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> seekingalpha.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The Pharmacovigilance Risk Assessment Committee (PRAC) of European Medicines Agency (EMA) has started an assessment of Erythema multiforme, nephrotic syndrome, and glomerulonephritis experienced by some recipients of the vaccine._


----------



## damian13ster

like_to_retire said:


> Health Canada COVID-19 daily epidemiology update.
> 
> View attachment 21988


That doesn't account for vaccination rate. Those are statistics pretty much from the beginning of the year, that's why so skewed.
It is good that provinces are starting to track it so now we can get an actual idea of what is going on. And since delta came along it is not looking optimistic


----------



## Beaver101

Federal government to roll out vaccine passports for foreign travel



> _Mia Rabson, The Canadian Press
> Published Wednesday, August 11, 2021 3:52PM EDT
> Last Updated Wednesday, August 11, 2021 3:55PM EDT
> OTTAWA - Immigration Minister Marco Mendicino says fully vaccinated Canadians will soon be able to get a government document that will certify their COVID-19 vaccine history for the purpose of international travel.
> 
> The document, expected to be ready by the fall, will be digital, with an option for those who can't or don't want a digital certificate.
> Mendicino says it will include data on the type of vaccines received, the dates, and the location.
> 
> *Intergovernmental Affairs Minister Dominic LeBlanc says the program has to be done in co-operation with provinces and territories because they have the data that is needed.
> 
> He says if provinces want to use the same passport within their province that could be an option.*
> 
> Quebec is introducing a provincial passport next month that will be required for people who want to attend public events, go to the gym, or frequent a restaurant or bar. _


V-passports coming soon to a place near you! 

It'll be interesting to see which/what businesses/institutions will not require a vaccine-passport for entry/attendance.


----------



## like_to_retire

damian13ster said:


> That doesn't account for vaccination rate. Those are statistics pretty much from the beginning of the year, that's why so skewed.


Yeah, that darn Health Canada, what could they know when we have so many Twitter experts to set us straight.

ltr


----------



## sags

_Provincial health officials recorded 324 new cases. Ontario Health Minister Christine Elliott said* 234 cases today are in unvaccinated individuals and 32 are in partially vaccinated people.*_

So the remaining 58 people were vaccinated ?

58 out of 324 cases being vaccinated isn't the best news or anywhere near what the Health Canada graphs show.


----------



## Spudd

sags said:


> _Provincial health officials recorded 324 new cases. Ontario Health Minister Christine Elliott said* 234 cases today are in unvaccinated individuals and 32 are in partially vaccinated people.*_
> 
> So the remaining 58 people were vaccinated ?
> 
> 58 out of 324 cases being vaccinated isn't the best news or anywhere near what the Health Canada graphs show.


You have to keep in mind that 80% of the population is vaccinated. So the cases per 100k today was as follows:
5.19/100k unvaccinated
1.94/100k partially vaccinated
0.66/100k fully vaccinated


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> 58 out of 324 cases being vaccinated isn't the best news or anywhere near what the Health Canada graphs show.


You're comparing a few days data with data over a longer time frame. Looking at a couple days data is meaningless. You have to examine over the long term. Look at the Health Canada graphs I posted earlier. Ignore the crazy people who want to whip you into a froth.

ltr


----------



## Eder

Beaver101 said:


> It'll be interesting to see which/what businesses/institutions will not require a vaccine-passport for entry/attendance.


None in Alberta. I prefer it that way.Those that want it can move to Quebec.


----------



## damian13ster

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, that darn Health Canada, what could they know when we have so many Twitter experts to set us straight.
> 
> ltr


Are you refuting the statement I made?
I simply provided a fact.
I don't negate the effectiveness of vaccines at all. I got one myself.
When giving out information it is important to determine what it represents, how it was collected


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> Are you refuting the statement I made?
> I simply provided a fact.
> I don't negate the effectiveness of vaccines at all. I got one myself.
> When giving out information it is important to determine what it represents, how it was collected


The problem is that even from official sources we get completely contradicting numbers


----------



## sags

Yup, I am not listening to any of the statistics anymore. They are just confusing everybody.

It is bad enough we have Doug Ford flip flopping around like a carp on the dock. We don't need flip flopping data too.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Yup, I am not listening to any of the statistics anymore. They are just confusing everybody.
> 
> It is bad enough we have Doug Ford flip flopping around like a carp on the dock. We don't need flip flopping data too.


So you just assume a position and refuse to listen to data? Typical


----------



## like_to_retire

I see the Winnipeg Jets just announced you have to be fully vaccinated to attend games this year. I suspect we'll see more and more of this in all aspects regardless whether the government hands out passports of not.

Jets announce vaccination requirement for fans to attend home games.

ltr


----------



## Ukrainiandude

like_to_retire said:


> I see the Winnipeg Jets just announced you have to be fully vaccinated to attend games this year. I suspect we'll see more and more of this in all aspects regardless whether the government hands out passports of not.
> 
> Jets announce vaccination requirement for fans to attend home games.
> 
> ltr


 Legal litigations, this is unconstitutional and discriminatory.
Scott Livingstone, CEO of the Saskatchewan Health Authority, said asking somebody for proof of COVID-19 vaccination would violate the province's Health Information Protection Act.

"Even giving your health card number is personal health information. Banks are not allowed to ask for your health card number and nobody else is for a form of ID," said Livingstone. "It is personal information, and so is vaccination status."


----------



## AltaRed

It seems legal experts generally concur that public health interest would trump the Charter. Even if it does not, until the courts sorted it out, a whole bunch of vaccine fence sitters would get vaccinated in order to enjoy going to sports events, bars and nightclubs. It could be amazing how quickly priorities change. Quebec has the right idea to incentivize vaccinations.


----------



## damian13ster

AltaRed said:


> It seems legal experts generally concur that public health interest would trump the Charter. Even if it does not, until the courts sorted it out, a whole bunch of vaccine fence sitters would get vaccinated in order to enjoy going to sports events, bars and nightclubs. It could be amazing how quickly priorities change. Quebec has the right idea to incentivize vaccinations.


That is under assumption that vaccination of an individual somehow strengthens public interest enough to violate rights.
With alpha and beta it seemed to be the case.
With delta it seems that vaccinated people spread the virus equally, therefore vaccination benefits individual receiving the vaccine (less likely to be hospitalized) but not overall society.

The courts are sad unfortunately. Decisions about constitutionality need to be made quicker. Or consequences for violating human rights without justification need to be severe, including jail time and compensation to victims.

What happened in Alberta with unconstitutional law being in effect almost entire year, but case was dropped a week before it hit the court because on that week law was withdrawn is an absolute disgrace. Precedent needs to be set to avoid another 8-12 months of human rights violation without court determination about legality of such violation.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

TORONTO -- As pandemic restrictions continue to loosen across Canada amid increased vaccination rates, some customers may be hesitant to return to certain businesses if they are not made aware of the employees' COVID-19 vaccination status.

However, experts say employers are not permitted to share their workers’ private medical information.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

like_to_retire said:


> I see the Winnipeg Jets just announced you have to be fully vaccinated to attend games this year. I suspect we'll see more and more of this in all aspects regardless whether the government hands out passports of not.
> 
> Jets announce vaccination requirement for fans to attend home games.
> 
> ltr


 I feel sad for people that prefer watching sports instead of participating in sports. And I know that they don’t do both, based on their waste lines. 
Never attended any live game in Canada and would like to keep it that way.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

So far we have not been presented with evidence of vaccine effectiveness to prevent transmission, although members of the scientific community have indicated that this may be forthcoming. We recognize that scientific knowledge about COVID-19 and the vaccines is advancing quickly and discussions about vaccine passports are underway in some jurisdictions. When contemplating the introduction of vaccine passports, we recommend that governments and businesses adhere to the following privacy principles:


Legal authority: There must be clear legal authority for introducing use of vaccine passports for each intended purpose. Public and private sector entities that require or request individuals to present a vaccine passport in order to receive services or enter premises must ensure that they have the legal authority to make such a demand or request. Clear legal authority for vaccine passports may come from a new statute, an existing statute, an amendment to a statute, or a public health order that clearly specifies the legal authority to request or require a vaccine passport, to whom that authority is being given, and the specific circumstances in which that can occur.
Consent and trust: For vaccine passports introduced by and for the use of public bodies, consent alone is not a sufficient basis upon which to proceed under existing public sector privacy laws. Furthermore, consent alone may not be meaningful for people dealing with governments and public bodies that often have a monopoly over the services they provide. The legal authority for such passports should therefore not rely on consent alone.
For businesses and other entities that are subject to private sector privacy laws and are considering some form of vaccine passport, the clearest authority under which to proceed would be a newly enacted public health order or law requiring the presentation of a vaccine passport to enter a premises or receive a service. Absent such order or law, i.e. relying on existing privacy legislation, consent may provide sufficient authority if it meets all of the following conditions, which must be applied contextually given the specifics of the vaccine passport and its implementation:


Consent must be voluntary and meaningful, based on clear and plain language describing the specific purpose to be achieved;
The information must be necessary to achieve the purpose;
The purpose must be one that a reasonable person would consider appropriate in the circumstances;
Individuals must have a true choice: consent must not be required as a condition of service.





__





Privacy and COVID-19 Vaccine Passports - Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada







www.priv.gc.ca


----------



## damian13ster

Ukrainiandude said:


> So far we have not been presented with evidence of vaccine effectiveness to prevent transmission, although members of the scientific community have indicated that this may be forthcoming. We recognize that scientific knowledge about COVID-19 and the vaccines is advancing quickly and discussions about vaccine passports are underway in some jurisdictions. When contemplating the introduction of vaccine passports, we recommend that governments and businesses adhere to the following privacy principles:
> 
> 
> Legal authority: There must be clear legal authority for introducing use of vaccine passports for each intended purpose. Public and private sector entities that require or request individuals to present a vaccine passport in order to receive services or enter premises must ensure that they have the legal authority to make such a demand or request. Clear legal authority for vaccine passports may come from a new statute, an existing statute, an amendment to a statute, or a public health order that clearly specifies the legal authority to request or require a vaccine passport, to whom that authority is being given, and the specific circumstances in which that can occur.
> Consent and trust: For vaccine passports introduced by and for the use of public bodies, consent alone is not a sufficient basis upon which to proceed under existing public sector privacy laws. Furthermore, consent alone may not be meaningful for people dealing with governments and public bodies that often have a monopoly over the services they provide. The legal authority for such passports should therefore not rely on consent alone.
> For businesses and other entities that are subject to private sector privacy laws and are considering some form of vaccine passport, the clearest authority under which to proceed would be a newly enacted public health order or law requiring the presentation of a vaccine passport to enter a premises or receive a service. Absent such order or law, i.e. relying on existing privacy legislation, consent may provide sufficient authority if it meets *all of the following conditions*, which must be applied contextually given the specifics of the vaccine passport and its implementation:
> 
> 
> Consent must be voluntary and meaningful, based on clear and plain language describing the specific purpose to be achieved;
> The information must be necessary to achieve the purpose;
> The purpose must be one that a reasonable person would consider appropriate in the circumstances;
> *Individuals must have a true choice: consent must not be required as a condition of service.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Privacy and COVID-19 Vaccine Passports - Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.priv.gc.ca


Seems like it is dead on arrival


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> I feel sad for people that prefer watching sports instead of participating in sports. And I know that they don’t do both, based on their waste lines.
> Never attended any live game in Canada and would like to keep it that way.


In any case there is no NHL team in SK 

Personally, we are doing both, watching sport (freq live) and participating in sport activities.
I hope in Fall, our indoor volleyball leagues will reopen and I don't care if everyone need to be vaccinated or not


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> None in Alberta. I prefer it that way.Those that want it can move to Quebec.


 ... I underlined the word "not", as "not requiring" from the businesses. Not from individuals' preference. 

Unless you're saying in your post with the "None in Alberta" to mean that "all businesses in Alberta" do not require vaccination-proof for attendance and of which you (and the unvaccinateds of course ) prefer. And that if businesses in Alberta start asking for proof, then they can move over to Quebec. In which case indicates that the businesses (if not all) in Alberta either 1. don't give a rat on the safety or concerns of their employees, 2. don't give a rat with concerned vaccinated customers, and 3. all those vaccinations that occurred in Alberta was a waste of money.

With the above mentality, I'm afraid Alberta will need a new slogan (if not a modified flag) for visitors from the rest of the country/world. Something simple like "Alberta don't want Vaccinated Visitors!" or "Vaccinated visitors, get lost, go to Quebec or go home!"


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> That is under assumption that vaccination of an individual somehow strengthens public interest enough to violate rights.
> With alpha and beta it seemed to be the case.
> With delta it seems that vaccinated people spread the virus equally, therefore vaccination benefits individual receiving the vaccine (less likely to be hospitalized) but not overall society.
> 
> The courts are sad unfortunately. Decisions about constitutionality need to be made quicker. Or consequences for violating human rights without justification need to be severe, including jail time and compensation to victims.
> 
> What happened in Alberta with unconstitutional law being in effect almost entire year, but case was dropped a week before it hit the court because on that week law was withdrawn is an absolute disgrace. Precedent needs to be set to avoid another 8-12 months of human rights violation without court determination about legality of such violation.


It's not accurate to say vaccinated people 'spread delta equally'. They are 8-9x less likely to become infected. So keeping a large event to vaccinated only is likely to lead to fewer infections at the event and secondary community spread.


----------



## OptsyEagle

andrewf said:


> It's not accurate to say vaccinated people 'spread delta equally'. They are 8-9x less likely to become infected. So keeping a large event to vaccinated only is likely to lead to fewer infections at the event and secondary community spread.


The tests that were used to determine that vaccinated people transmitted the virus equally as unvaccinated people, was faulty. These things really should be peer reviewed before they get published, since most people, including many Scientists are quite lazy in their ability to think them out more clearly.

As Andrew said above, just that stat tells you that vaccinated people cannot possibly transmit as much virus as unvaccinated, but the discrepancy is even bigger then that. The best example of why the tests used (CT scans from PCR tests) was inaccurate is best illustrated with the following analogy:

Remember a PCR tests is done on infected people, many days after they each receive their various sized infections. It says nothing about the degree of infection (amount of exposure) that happens when these people actually got infected. So think of it this way. If we had two Olympic runners in a race. One runner was placed on the 200 yard line to start and the other runner was placed on the 50 yard line. If we had no other information on this race but a photo finish of the two runners crossing the finish line at approximately the same time (that is what a PCR test is) we would falsely conclude that both runners were running at approximately the same speed, even when that was certainly not the case. A PCR test tells us nothing about how much virus each person was exposed to that their bodies are fighting. They just found two people, one vaccinated and one unvaccinated, many days later after their infections and said, "hey look, they both have the same viral load. That must mean that they must be the same when it comes to shedding virus". 

Although that may be true for those two people, it is far from conclusive on the entire populations of vaccinated compared to unvaccinated. When you consider how few vaccinated people get admitted to the hospital, ICU or die, the only way that can happen is if vaccinated people fight off the virus FASTER then unvaccinated people do. The only way you will find two people, one unvaccinated and the other vaccinated, with the same viral load, is if the vaccinated person started the race with a much higher, many magnitudes higher of infectious exposure, then the unvaccinated person did. In other words they did not start this race at the same place, they only finished there.

I know that might be a little confusing but don't feel bad, it seems to be confusing many people out there. Please read it again, so as not to be one of them.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> It's not accurate to say vaccinated people 'spread delta equally'. They are 8-9x less likely to become infected. So keeping a large event to vaccinated only is likely to lead to fewer infections at the event and secondary community spread.


Where did you get that data? CDC doesn't agree with you.
You can't look at simply amount of infections because there are different testing rules for vaccinated vs unvaccinated.
Listen to scientists


----------



## sags

Unfortunately the Provincial governments are leaving businesses swinging in the breeze when it comes to mandatory vaccinations.

Businesses have an obligation to both their employees and their customers. They must maintain a safe workplace for employees and are now faced with keeping a safe place for all their customers. The bottom line is they can do neither if un-vaccinated people are allowed in their premises.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Unfortunately the Provincial governments are leaving businesses swinging in the breeze when it comes to mandatory vaccinations.
> 
> Businesses have an obligation to both their employees and their customers. They must maintain a safe workplace for employees and are now faced with keeping a safe place for all their customers. The bottom line is they can do neither if un-vaccinated people are allowed in their premises.
> 
> So what is a business to do ?


They also have an obligation not to discriminate, and they also have an obligation to adhere to privacy laws.
They should fulfill those obligations as they aren't arbitrary.


----------



## sags

That is why the Provincial governments need to pass legislation that provides clear guidance on the ranking of rights.

It also isn't up to retail employees to enforce mandatory mask wearing or vaccinations. It is past time to get serious with the anti-mask, anti-vaxxers.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> That is why the Provincial governments need to pass legislation that provides clear guidance on the ranking of rights.


Legalizing discrimination and segregation?
Screw that.










It is not like we did nazi that coming.

Thankfully scientists are now saying that vaccines don't prevent the spread, they prevent the hospitalizations.
So people advocating for segregation are now not only segregationists, they are also science-deniers


----------



## sags

I say give the police big wooden paddles and when encountering a "Karen or Ken" who refuse to comply, give the covidiots whacks on the arse all the way out the door.

Everyone can stand there and laugh and laugh.


----------



## sags

Some covidiots would be perfectly happy to close down businesses because they falsely believe they have superior rights over everyone else.

The law has clearly come down on the side of protecting society, which is why people are held in custody before they are convicted of serious crimes.


----------



## sags

When you drive down a public street and get pulled into a RIDE check, your rights are being suspended. Drive through without stopping and see what happens.

When you get stopped at the border and strip searched, your rights are being suspended. Drive past the border guards and see what happens.

There are lots of examples where individual rights are suspended for the protection of society.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Some covidiots would be perfectly happy to close down businesses because they falsely believe they have superior rights over everyone else.
> 
> The law has clearly come down on the side of protecting society, which is why people are held in custody before they are convicted of serious crimes.


 ... since damian13ster is so concerned about our government turning into a Nazi state where individual rights will be violated based on vaccination, v-passports status (as if individuals aren't already being violated these days based on race, gender, etc.), then let the un-vaccinateds run the businesses. The vaccinateds will simply avoid the un-vaccinateds - that should work.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... since damian13ster is so concerned about our government turning into a Nazi state where individual rights will be violated based on vaccination, v-passports status (as if individuals aren't already being violated these days based on race, gender, etc.), then let the un-vaccinateds run the businesses. The vaccinateds will simply avoid the un-vaccinateds - that should work.


You are completely missing the point. You have no right to know anyone's vaccination status unless they choose to disclose it to you out of free will, without any coercion.
You can choose to avoid every single individual if you want - that is your right. But you don't have a right to know health data of all individuals.
Businesses are fine without any segregation or discrimination. Patios are full, restaurants booked, clubs are packed.

And if individual rights are being violated based on race, gender, then it should be (and in most cases is) illegal.
Of course there will be criminals. You will never eliminate every single criminal act.
That doesn't mean you should legalize segregation, discrimination, and individual right violation.

This discussion is completely useless. Vaccines don't protect against the spread. There is no 'greater good'. Only ones benefitting from vaccinations are those who received the vaccine. 
Advocates for segregation have no merit based arguments anymore, once delta variant appeared and made vaccines ineffective in preventing the spread (still effective in protecting the individual from hospitalization) - now segregationists are simply that - people with tendencies for totalitarianism and science-deniers.


----------



## sags

_Businesses are fine without any segregation or discrimination. Patios are full, restaurants booked, clubs are packed. _

Yes they are in some places, and they are spreading the virus well beyond the patios, restaurants and clubs to others who didn't expose themselves needlessly.


----------



## sags

_But you don't have a right to know health data of all individuals. _

Wrong.......if a person has HIV or an STD, they must disclose that health fact to anyone they will have sexual relations with.

People have been convicted and imprisoned for failing to do so.

Mental or major health impairments must be disclosed to the Ministry of Transportation. I know a truck driver who lost his license due to health issues.

I know a woman who had her driver's license revoked after her doctor reported her dementia to the Ministry of Transportation.

There are many examples of the suspension of individual rights for the greater good of society.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> _But you don't have a right to know health data of all individuals. _
> 
> Wrong.......if a person has HIV or an STD, they must disclose that health fact to anyone they will have sexual relations with.
> 
> People have been convicted and imprisoned for failing to do so.


Sexual relation is not a 'service', at least in my world.
The privacy laws quoted here earlier clearly state that one can't be denied service based on unwillingness to share personal health data.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> You are completely missing the point. You have no right to know anyone's vaccination status unless they choose to disclose it to you out of free will, without any coercion.
> You can choose to avoid every single individual if you want - that is your right. But you don't have a right to know health data of all individuals.
> Businesses are fine without any segregation or discrimination. Patios are full, restaurants booked, clubs are packed.
> 
> And if individual rights are being violated based on race, gender, then it should be (and in most cases is) illegal.
> Of course there will be criminals. You will never eliminate every single criminal act.
> That doesn't mean you should legalize segregation, discrimination, and individual right violation.
> 
> This discussion is completely useless. Vaccines don't protect against the spread. There is no 'greater good'. Only ones benefitting from vaccinations are those who received the vaccine.
> Advocates for segregation have no merit based arguments anymore, once delta variant appeared and made vaccines ineffective in preventing the spread (still effective in protecting the individual from hospitalization) - now segregationists are simply that - people with tendencies for totalitarianism and science-deniers.


 ... I'm afraid that you're missing the point (main) and that is "the un-vaccinateds don't have a choice". Either they get vaccinated (the v-passport will be proof) or get tested as negative where-ever they go. And I don't think they'll opt for the latter either. The "un-vaccinateds" are of a minority just as a minority these days don't get to dictate aka being discriminated.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Sexual relation is not a 'service', at least in my world.
> The privacy laws quoted here earlier clearly state that one can't be denied service based on unwillingness to share personal health data.


 ... well, there's your example (admission) of the lack of moral responsibility by the individual. Fine, don't disclose it and go on and infect others. Great.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... I'm afraid that you're missing the point (main) and that is "the un-vaccinateds don't have a choice". Either they get vaccinated (the v-passport will be proof) or get tested as negative where-ever they go. And I don't think they'll opt for the latter either. The "un-vaccinateds" are of a minority just as a minority these days don't get to dictate aka discriminated.


You are writing about a hypothetical law that doesn't exist, and does violate charter rights.
That discussion can be had when hypothetical laws that you are speculating about actually come into effect and aren't struck down by courts.

Under existing legal system you have no right to deny anyone service if they choose not to disclose their personal health data (including vaccination status) to you.


----------



## sags

To use the driver licence example........driving is a privilege and not a right. Entering a business is also a privilege and not a right.

If you want a licence, you also have to submit to a vision test. You can refuse the test.......but then you aren't getting a license.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... well, there's an example of the lack of moral responsibility by the individual. Don't disclose it and infect others.


That's your interpretation.
You have to respect that others might believe that moral responsibility not to violate individual human rights and segregate the society supersedes moral responsibility to disclose personal health data to everyone (talking about vaccination status, not HIV).
Minorities are also in general more hesitant when it comes to vaccination status, and their skepticism is justified based on how they were treated by government, so by segregating society you are further discriminating groups that have already faced segregation in the past.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> You are writing about a hypothetical law that doesn't exist, and does violate charter rights.
> That discussion can be had when hypothetical laws that you are speculating about actually come into effect and aren't struck down by courts.
> 
> Under existing legal system you have no right to deny anyone service if they choose not to disclose their personal health data (including vaccination status) to you.


 ... that's why sags in his post (#3793) said the province needs to come up with legislation. Either that or let nature and the economy runs its course. And pray like hell.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> To use the driver licence example........driving is a privilege and not a right. Entering a business is also a privilege and not a right.
> 
> If you want a licence, you also have to submit to a vision test. You can refuse the test.......but then you aren't getting a license.


Privacy laws have been posted here. You can ignore them, you can break them and face the consequences. Up to you.
Useless anecdotes and baseless comparisons are completely irrelevant


----------



## sags

I posted several examples where individual rights are superseded by societal rights.

You may not like it but that is the way it is.


----------



## Spudd

damian13ster said:


> Privacy laws have been posted here. You can ignore them, you can break them and face the consequences. Up to you.
> Useless anecdotes and baseless comparisons are completely irrelevant


I looked up the Saskatchewan health privacy law out of curiosity and I see nothing in there that would prevent business from asking vaccine status. It simply says that your healthcare providers cannot disclose your health information, not that you yourself cannot be asked for it by anyone.

The Act applies to personal health information held by any trustee in Saskatchewan, regardless of format.(where a trustee is a healthcare provider)





__





Your Personal Health Information and Privacy | Accessing Health Care Services in Saskatchewan | Government of Saskatchewan


Learn about how the Ministry of Health handles your private health information and protects it from unauthorized disclosure.



www.saskatchewan.ca


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> That's your interpretation.
> You have to respect that others might believe that moral responsibility not to violate individual human rights and segregate the society supersedes moral responsibility to disclose personal health data to everyone (talking about vaccination status, not HIV).
> Minorities are also in general more hesitant when it comes to vaccination status, and their skepticism is justified based on how they were treated by government, so by segregating society you are further discriminating groups that have already faced segregation in the past.


 ... simple question for you. Do you "honestly" think the un-vaccinateds will end up in a better place than the vaccinateds?


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... simple question for you. Do you "honestly" think the un-vaccinateds will end up in a better place than the vaccinateds?


No. And for that reason I am vaccinated.
Do I believe people should be segregated based on their choices in personal health? No.
Just because I believe in something doesn't mean I should enforce my views with a power of government on the others.
Minority has rights. People who think differently have rights. People who don't take good care of themselves have rights.


----------



## damian13ster

Spudd said:


> I looked up the Saskatchewan health privacy law out of curiosity and I see nothing in there that would prevent business from asking vaccine status. It simply says that your healthcare providers cannot disclose your health information, not that you yourself cannot be asked for it by anyone.
> 
> The Act applies to personal health information held by any trustee in Saskatchewan, regardless of format.(where a trustee is a healthcare provider)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your Personal Health Information and Privacy | Accessing Health Care Services in Saskatchewan | Government of Saskatchewan
> 
> 
> Learn about how the Ministry of Health handles your private health information and protects it from unauthorized disclosure.
> 
> 
> 
> www.saskatchewan.ca


The list of trustees that this act applies to is very specific and short. Private businesses aren't on that list.

Private businesses are more closely regulated by PIPEDA (I am sure there are other acts too)

"An organization may only collect personal information that is essential to the business transaction. If further information is requested, you are entitled to ask why, and to decline to provide it if you are dissatisfied with the answer. You should still be able to complete the transaction, even if you refuse to give out more personal information than is warranted."

Exceptions:
"
There are some exceptions to the consent principle. For example, police who show they need personal information for an investigation or during an emergency may not be required under PIPEDA to obtain consent to collect it.

Also PIPEDA does not apply to an employee’s name, title, business address, telephone number and email address, which an organization collects, uses or discloses solely for the purpose of communicating with individuals in relation to their employment, business or profession.

PIPEDA also exempts organizations that collect, use or disclose personal information solely for journalistic, artistic or literary purposes.

And, finally, it is also important to note that PIPEDA applies to commercial activities, therefore, an individual’s collection, use or disclosure of personal information strictly for personal purposes are not covered by the law."


----------



## sags

Requiring proof of vaccination is entirely different than revealing private health information.

Public schools require updated vaccination records but parents aren't legally required to show vaccination records.

They can choose to home school or enrol their kids into a private school that doesn't require vaccinations.......if they exist.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Requiring proof of vaccination is entirely different than revealing private health information.
> 
> Public schools require updated vaccination records but parents aren't legally required to show vaccination records.
> 
> They can choose to home school or enrol their kids into a private school that doesn't require vaccinations.......if they exist.


In Ontario we were required to show vaccination records for our son 
The Law
Unless they have a valid exemption, children who attend primary or secondary school must be immunized against:


diphtheria
tetanus
polio
measles
mumps
rubella
meningitis (meningococcal disease)
whooping cough (pertussis)
chickenpox (varicella) – required for children born in 2010 or later


----------



## sags

Yup.........and when vaccinations are approved for children under 12.......Covid will be added to the list.

Hopefully the science will continue and they will find an easier way to administer covid vaccines or boosters........or even a way to immunize against it.

All it takes is determination and money. After this pandemic.......which many people thought would never happen, there is more support for the research.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

There has been a jump in Israel in cases of severe illness caused by the virus since the start of August, doubling to 400 in a population of 9 million, with 240 of those patients already having been vaccinated. *Patients over 50 years old account for 90% of the severe cases*, Prime Minister Naftali Bennett said Tuesday.

Vaccine or no vaccine, if you are old you going to get sick. And vaccinating children isn’t going to make you any younger.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Yup.........and when vaccinations are approved for children under 12.......*Covid will be added to the list.*


I doubt it. All covid vaccines only got emergency use authorization (EUA). I don't believe that vaccine that doesn't have full FDA approval will be mandatory. For example, US Marines should get all full FDA approval vaccines, but EUA vaccines are completely optional


----------



## sags

The US is getting close to full FDA approval for covid vaccinations, including children.


----------



## damian13ster

gibor365 said:


> I doubt it. All covid vaccines only got emergency use authorization (EUA). I don't believe that vaccine that doesn't have full FDA approval will be mandatory. For example, US Marines should get all full FDA approval vaccines, but EUA vaccines are completely optional


Yeah. No chance. For the same reason why flu vaccine isn't on the list.
It is seasonal, need multiple jabs a year, it is a hit or miss whether it will actually work against variants, and it doesn't stop infection spread


----------



## sags

The money poured into covid research is unmatched in history. Research and development was one of the first spending cuts for governments.

That is a practice of the past now. People now knows how easily and quickly pandemics can occur. You live and you learn.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> No. And for that reason I am vaccinated.
> Do I believe people should be segregated based on their choices in personal health? No.
> Just because I believe in something doesn't mean I should enforce my views with a power of government on the others.
> Minority has rights. People who think differently have rights. People who don't take good care of themselves have rights.


 ... the Big H-Irony.

Let's see how long your "respect" for the "minority" and "their rights" holds out for. Not sure where you're located but the pressure is for Ontario:

Toronto mayor calls for provincewide proof of vaccination system amid fourth wave

Maybe you can join Eder and tell all the businesses to move to Quebec if Ford doesn't give in.

Latest for the accused science-deniers (in ON):
Ontario doctors calls for mandatory COVID-19 vaccinations for education workers

More segregated news for the non-vaccine believers (in ON):
More Ontario universities make COVID-19 vaccination mandatory on campus


----------



## gibor365

_Premier Doug Ford has rebuffed calls from medical, political and business groups to implement a vaccine certificate system for non-essential activities, saying he doesn't want a “split society.” 
But while saying he “can't stand lockdowns,” he also has not ruled out having to enact another one. _








Ontario business groups call for vaccine certificate system to avoid lockdown


COVID-19 cases appear to be on the rise in Ontario again and business groups are calling for a vaccine certificate system as a means to avoid another lockdown.




www.cp24.com





So, Ford prefers lockdown instead of vaccine passport! What an idiot! How much longer he can destroy already destroyed province?! This is "collective punishment"! Funny that he's talking about _“split society.”, _if we have new lockdown , it's by default attributed to unvaccinated people.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> The US is getting close to full FDA approval for covid vaccinations, including children.


If it's happen, this will be another story








FDA approval of the Covid-19 vaccine could mean more people will get vaccinated for an unexpected reason


Pfizer's Covid-19 vaccine is currently only authorized for emergency use in the United States, but its full approval by the US Food and Drug Administration could happen within weeks.




www.cnn.com


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> Hopefully the science will continue and they will find an easier way to administer covid vaccines or boosters.


Maybe gummy bears would work. Then there would be a flood of unvaccinated lining up to get their gummy. I'm convinced all those that don't want to get vaccinated must simply be afraid of needles. What other possible reason could there be? We know they're effective and low risk compared to COVID, so it must be a fear of needles.

ltr


----------



## Beaver101

^ Fear of needles=an excuse for some. For some, how do you explain those still unvaccinateds in the healthcare profession being afraid of needles? And then for the others, how about offering $1K for a jab? Maybe that ain't enough, and they need more ... $1M?


----------



## sags

There are a lot of people with a fear of needles or medical care in general.

My parents were terrified of "going to the doctor". Our son developed panic attacks if he even walked into a hospital. The antiseptic smell made him woozy.

Many aren't afraid of the needle per se. They are afraid they will pass out and embarrass themselves. Our son had a panic attack one time and passed out.

He smashed his face on the concrete sidewalk. He was lucky the damage wasn't permanent. Unfortunately, the panic just overwhelms him.

They need a way of getting vaccinated that doesn't involve a clinic or wait times, where they have to stand while the panic builds within them.

A drive thru......where you stick your arm out the window while someone else drives the vehicle ?

Gummy bears or a nasal spray would work too.

I know.......I know.......it doesn't make sense to the rest of us, but anxiety and panic attacks are very real and disabling to the people that are having them.

Many trips to the ER are caused by panic attacks, including chest pain (false heart attacks) etc.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... the Big H-Irony.
> 
> Let's see how long your "respect" for the "minority" and "their rights" holds out for. Not sure where you're located but the pressure is for Ontario:
> 
> Toronto mayor calls for provincewide proof of vaccination system amid fourth wave
> 
> Maybe you can join Eder and tell all the businesses to move to Quebec if Ford doesn't give in.
> 
> Latest for the accused science-deniers (in ON):
> Ontario doctors calls for mandatory COVID-19 vaccinations for education workers
> 
> More segregated news for the non-vaccine believers (in ON):
> More Ontario universities make COVID-19 vaccination mandatory on campus


My respect for rights of minorities will always hold out. That never changes.
It isn't my fault that those in power don't have respect for minorities and those who think differently than them. It is a common trait among those who chase power.

Just because someone calls for a certain action, doesn't mean that action is backed by science.
They were calling for no masks. They were calling for two masks, they were saying vaccinated can return to normal life completely.
Medical authorities have been completely wrong multiple times during the pandemic. A doctor is not 'science'. Science is in data.

Fully vaccinated people who get a Covid-19 breakthrough infection can transmit the virus, US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said Thursday.
"Our vaccines are working exceptionally well," Walensky told CNN's Wolf Blitzer. "They continue to work well for Delta, with regard to severe illness and death -- they prevent it. But what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission."
That's why the CDC changed its guidance last week and is now recommending even vaccinated people wear masks indoors again, Walensky said.

Last week, the agency released a study that showed the Delta variant produced similar amounts of virus in vaccinated and unvaccinated people if they got infected -- data that suggests vaccinated people who get a breakthrough infection could have a similar tendency to spread the virus as the unvaccinated.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> My respect for rights of minorities will always hold out. That never changes.
> It isn't my fault that those in power don't have respect for minorities and those who think differently than them. It is a common trait among those who chase power.


 ... unfortunately, you're not in power and so ?



> Just because someone calls for a certain action, doesn't mean that action is backed by science.
> They were calling for no masks. They were calling for two masks, they were saying vaccinated can return to normal life completely.
> Medical authorities have been completely wrong multiple times during the pandemic. A doctor is not 'science'. Science is in data.


 ... you can have all the data / science you want. And expect all the precisions there. But those are all useless without the interpretation and practicing which lies in the hands of the doctors. And you do realize that doctors are humans too, not algorithmic machines that models the data saying the vaccination science is a silver bullet or cure-all.



> Fully vaccinated people who get a Covid-19 breakthrough infection can transmit the virus, US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said Thursday.
> "Our vaccines are working exceptionally well," Walensky told CNN's Wolf Blitzer. "They continue to work well for Delta, with regard to severe illness and death -- they prevent it. But what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission."
> That's why the CDC changed its guidance last week and is now recommending even vaccinated people wear masks indoors again, Walensky said.
> 
> Last week, the agency released a study that showed the Delta variant produced similar amounts of virus in vaccinated and unvaccinated people if they got infected -- data that suggests vaccinated people who get a breakthrough infection could have a similar tendency to spread the virus as the unvaccinated.


 ... so where does this leave the un-vaccinateds, non-infectables? Are they going to skip the ICUs and go straight for the 6' deep hole?


----------



## sags

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Fear of needles=an excuse for some. For some, how do you explain those still unvaccinateds in the healthcare profession being afraid of needles? And then for the others, how about offering $1K for a jab? Maybe that ain't enough, and they need more ... $1M?


A nurse was on CNN.......who worked in a very busy COVID ward. She said some of the doctors and nurses weren't vaccinated and she couldn't explain why.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... unfortunately, you're not in power and so ?
> 
> ... you can have all the data / science you want. And expect all the precisions there. But those are all useless without the interpretation and practicing which lies in the hands of the doctors. And you do realize that doctors are humans too, not algorithmic machines that models the data saying the vaccination science is a silver bullet or cure-all.
> 
> ... so where does this leave the un-vaccinateds, non-infectables? Are they going to skip the ICUs and go straight for the 6' deep hole?


Don't understand your last question.
It leaves them exactly where they were before vaccine was introduced.
If they get infected and have no symptoms --> they will gain immunity
If they get infected and have harsh symptoms --> they will go to hospital
If they get infected and have terrible symptoms --> they will go to ICU
If they get infected and they die --> they go 6' under.

Simple. Their fate has no effect on others, at least not anymore than any person going to hospital for any other preventable reason does


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> A nurse was on CNN.......who worked in a very busy COVID ward. She said some of the doctors and nurses weren't vaccinated and she couldn't explain why.


 ... using the "fear of the needles" theory (excuse) here - I wonder where they think they're getting jabbed?


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Don't understand your last question.
> It leaves them exactly where they were before vaccine was introduced.
> If they get infected and have no symptoms --> they will gain immunity
> If they get infected and have harsh symptoms --> they will go to hospital
> If they get infected and have terrible symptoms --> they will go to ICU
> If they get infected and they die --> they go 6' under.
> 
> Simple. Their fate has no effect on others, at least not anymore than any person going to hospital for any other preventable reason does


 ... so where do the infectious vaccinateds go when the un-vaccinateds take up the ICUs?


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... so where do the infectious vaccinateds go when the un-vaccinateds take up the ICUs?


Same places they went before the vaccine was Implemented.
We lived through those times.
Stop asking stupid questions with obvious answers.
Vast majority of health care resources are used for obesity (including for COVID, over 70% of COVID hospitalizations are among obese people) yet noone wants BMI passports to enter fast foods, or mandatory liposuctions.
Stop enforcing your ideology and beliefs onto others. Especially completely arbitrarily. Live and let live


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> Gummy bears or a nasal spray would work too.
> 
> I know.......I know.......it doesn't make sense to the rest of us, but anxiety and panic attacks are very real and disabling to the people that are having them.


I do believe that the fear of needles is probably the majority share of those that don't get vaccinated. They'll often deny it, and present a front, but it's the real reason. 

There are also those people who like to fashion themselves as rebels and the attention that they garner from their contrarian position. It gives them a sense of power I suppose. It's amazing that it's more powerful than saving their life with a simply needle. 

I also don't buy into the notion that people who don't get vaccinated are stupid. There's always an underlying reason that you could probably never tease out of them. When there is absolutely no reason to not get a vaccine (which there isn't with overwhelming evidence), then you have to look elsewhere for the root cause.

I will say that the "stupid" theorem does gain some traction when you read about a jurisdiction that provides a meaningless incentive like a case of beer or lollipops to show up for vaccines and then the response is overwhelming. Makes you wonder.

ltr


----------



## Ukrainiandude

like_to_retire said:


> When there is absolutely no reason to not get a vaccine (which there isn't with overwhelming evidence), then you have to look elsewhere for the root cause.


I see very little incentive for people under 50 to get vaccinated.
Most of people in ICU in Israel are vaccinated and over 50.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Same places they went before the vaccine was Implemented.
> We lived through those times.
> Stop asking stupid questions with obvious answers.


 ... and so do you want a repeat of "those times" where ICUs got overwhelmed? So if you stop being a selfish hypocrite, then you won't get "stupid" questions with the "obvious" answers.



> Vast majority of health care resources are used for obesity (including for COVID, over 70% of COVID hospitalizations are among obese people) yet noone wants BMI passports to enter fast foods, or mandatory liposuctions.


 ... the deflection tactic ... don't forget to include the junkies and the drunkies.



> Stop enforcing your ideology and beliefs onto others. Especially completely arbitrarily. Live and let live


 ... I don't need to enforce my ideology and my beliefs on others ... society will determine that. And you can continue on your claim that you're protecting the "unvaccinateds' rights as a minority", in disguise.


----------



## Beaver101

Downtown steakhouse ordered to close due to COVID-19 outbreak

Nothing like enjoying a nice juicy steak and a free infection ... any takers?


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... and so do you want a repeat of "those times" where ICUs got overwhelmed? So if you stop being a selfish hypocrite, then you won't get "stupid" questions with the "obvious" answers.
> 
> ... the deflection tactic ... don't forget to include the junkies and the drunkies.
> 
> ... I don't need to enforce my ideology and my beliefs on others ... society will determine that. And you can continue on your claim that you're protecting the "unvaccinateds' rights as a minority", in disguise.


I believe it is extremely unlikely the ICUs get overwhelmed if vaccines work, especially looking at vaccination % among age groups, and ICU numbers among age groups.

It isn't deflection tactic at all. In socialized healthcare we all pay for mistakes of others. 
We pay for other people leaving unhealthy lifestyle leading to obesity
We pay for other people abusing substances
We pay for other people getting injured doing stupid ****
And we will pay for those who decide not to get vaccinated.

Why in disguise? I am vaccinated yet I protect the rights of individuals to make a decision for themselves. It is very simple. As a student of history, I hold individual human rights just above all else. There are numerous lessons in our past on what happens if we do not protect those rights. Some refuse to learn I guess.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> ... Why in disguise? I am vaccinated yet I protect the rights of individuals to make a decision for themselves. It is very simple. As a student of history, I hold individual human rights just above all else. There are numerous lessons in our past on what happens if we do not protect those rights. Some refuse to learn I guess.


 ... nothing wrong with protecting rights of others but in your instance it's 'selective' protecting and definitely no evidence from 'numerous' lessons learned in the past other than your accusation of others refusing to learn.


----------



## Money172375

Pfizer is fully approved by Health Canada according to Tor. star


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> I see very little incentive for people under 50 to get vaccinated.
> Most of people in ICU in Israel are vaccinated and over 50.


It’s because about 85-90% of over 50 are fully vaccinated 😁


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Honestly I don’t understand why harassing people 
You are all vaccinated and protected. Let the world live and enjoy life.
If people don’t want to get vaccinated for whatever reason let them get sick and die. What is your problem with letting people die?


----------



## zinfit

Money172375 said:


> Dr. Christopher leighton, although he later said it was spit ball math.
> according to Ryan Imgrund….local respected bio-statistician, Canada’s reproduction rate is currently highest in the world. Good news - 85% of cases are amongst unvaccinated in Ontario.
> 
> A
> View attachment 21961
> View attachment 21962


----------



## zinfit

A little while back pharmacies were saying that people had been rejecting Moderna vaccinations in favour of Pfizer. There are now reports from the Mayo Clinic and the British which indicated that Moderna provides much better protection against breakthrough cases of the Delta variant


----------



## Ukrainiandude

zinfit said:


> A little while back pharmacies were saying that people had been rejecting Moderna vaccinations in favour of Pfizer. There are now reports from the Mayo Clinic and the British which indicated that Moderna provides much better protection against breakthrough cases of the Delta variant


ANCA glomerulonephritis after the Moderna COVID-19 vaccination








ANCA glomerulonephritis after the Moderna COVID-19 vaccination







www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov






In end-stage kidney disease, also known as end-stage renal disease (ESRD), the kidneys are functioning below 10 percent of their normal function.
and
The potential of glomerular injuries to regenerate or to be repaired by scaring is limited.

you see what I lead to?


----------



## zinfit

Ukrainiandude said:


> ANCA glomerulonephritis after the Moderna COVID-19 vaccination
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ANCA glomerulonephritis after the Moderna COVID-19 vaccination
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In end-stage kidney disease, also known as end-stage renal disease (ESRD), the kidneys are functioning below 10 percent of their normal function.
> and
> The potential of glomerular injuries to regenerate or to be repaired by scaring is limited.
> 
> you see what I lead to?


One case? Out of many million vaccinations.Wouldn't getting excited about this story.


----------



## MK7GTI

Ukrainiandude said:


> Honestly I don’t understand why harassing people
> You are all vaccinated and protected. Let the world live and enjoy life.
> If people don’t want to get vaccinated for whatever reason let them get sick and die. What is your problem with letting people die?


Finally, someone said it.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

zinfit said:


> One case? Out of many million vaccinations.Wouldn't getting excited about this story.


It’s too bad you didn’t read my message thoroughly.
One detected because he got large number of nephrons damaged.
If less 70% of your nephrons are damaged you will not get any clinical signs but in the future any minor renal damage might cause renal failure. Also with age nephrons also got lost.
Nephrons are not regenerate, so damage including from vaccines are accumulating.

I hope you got it this time.

I doubt Pfizer, Moderna will get you a kidney transplant in the future.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Honestly I don’t understand why harassing people*
> You are all vaccinated and protected. Let the world live and enjoy life.
> *If people don’t want to get vaccinated for whatever reason let them get sick and die. What is your problem with letting people die?*


 ... you might want to ask the ICU doctors and nurses that question plus what you think, instead posting that to the rest of us (or the vaccinated population in this case) along with your accusation of "harassment".


----------



## Beaver101

27 people aboard Carnival cruise test positive for COVID-19



> _
> BELIZE CITY (AP) - Twenty-seven people aboard a Carnival cruise tested positive for COVID-19 just before the ship made a stop in Belize City this week, according to the Belize Tourism Board.
> 
> The positive cases were among 26 crew members and one passenger on the Carnival Vista, which is carrying over 1,400 crew and nearly 3,000 passengers, the board said in a statement. The ship arrived Wednesday in Belize City.
> 
> All 27 were vaccinated, had mild or no symptoms, and were in isolation, according to the statement. The tourism board said 99.98% of the ship's crew was vaccinated, as well as 96.5% of its passengers.
> 
> The Washington Post reported Carnival said it announced last week that there were positive cases on board, but the cruise line did not not give specific numbers. The ship left from Galveston, Texas, according to the Post.
> 
> *Carnival is requiring passengers to be vaccinated, though there are exceptions for children and people with medical issues. The cruise line said in a statement Aug. 4 that passengers must wear a mask in certain indoor areas, and provide a negative COVID test within three days of embarkment for cruises beginning Aug. 14.*
> 
> The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said on its website that it had investigated the Carnival Vista and the ship remains under observation._


 ... such facility along with its requirements (underlined) doesn't give customers much confidence to attend. And still, oh well.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ... you might want to ask the ICU doctors and nurses that question plus what you think, instead posting that to the rest of us (or the vaccinated population in this case) along with your accusation of "harassment".


 I will ask the government on September election.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> I will ask the government on September election.


 ... you do that and let us know what they tell you.


----------



## Beaver101

4 teachers died of COVID-19 within 24 hours in Broward County, Florida. Schools there are defying Gov. DeSantis' ban on mask mandates.

Thank Lord that this bad news is from the USA. Let's see how long its governer DeSantis is going to mandate the ban on masks on its state. 

I would not be surprised if his "explanation" later for a reversal of the ban was simplying "a test" ... sound familiar?


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> 4 teachers died of COVID-19 within 24 hours in Broward County, Florida. Schools there are defying Gov. DeSantis' ban on mask mandates.
> 
> Thank Lord that this bad news is from the USA. Let's see how long its governer DeSantis is going to mandate the ban on masks on its state.
> 
> I would not be surprised if his "explanation" later for a reversal of the ban was simplying "a test" ... sound familiar?


Bit of sensationalism in that high school
People who happened to be teachers, during summer break got COVID several days before the mask law change, and died shortly after a law change.

Sheesh, it's really a series of unrelated events.
Clearly the masking change had nothing to do with these people dying, or getting COVID.
The fact that they're teachers is irrelevant, because they were likely not in the classroom anyway.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

I don't understand the issue. If you are against vaccines, scared of vaccines or simply fall for the fake news about vaccines, then stay home and stop complaining. Then, if being unvaccinated restricts your activities, you only have yourself to blame.

We tend to forget we live in a country where we are fortunate enough to elect a government. That means we need to trust that government and follow their rules. If you don't like it, move to a place that fits your beliefs.

Vaccines in general, or any other drugs for that matter, have side effects. Yet, no one rushes to Facebook to debunk the side effects of Tylenol, Penicillin or the loads of anti-depressants that people take.

Regardless of the contradicting articles out there, you need to agree that medication has, for the most part, prolonged life for the human race. And sadly, some have lost their life due to the side effects. 

So if you ask me, you either contract this global virus and risk dying. Or take the vaccine to reduce your chances of contracting the virus. Its a risk either way. But the way I see it, the odds of dying from the virus are far greater than dying from a vaccine side effect. Take your pick.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Mortgage u/w said:


> I don't understand the issue. If you are against vaccines, scared of vaccines or simply fall for the fake news about vaccines, then stay home and stop complaining. Then, if being unvaccinated restricts your activities, you only have yourself to blame.


 What do you recommend those people who got covid twice (both times confirmed with a test)six months apart? First time it was like a mild common cold, second time was less severe.
They don’t care for the vaccines.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Ukrainiandude said:


> What do you recommend those people who got covid twice (both times confirmed with a test)six months apart? First time it was like a mild common cold, second time was less severe.
> They don’t care for the vaccines.


Who cares!?! Good for them getting through it!
Unfortunately, not everyone is as fortunate.

Let me ask you - what do you tell the people that lost their loved ones due to contracting the covid virus? What about all the other viruses people died from which had a vaccine available for it???


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Bit of sensationalism in that high school


 ... better there than here in Ontario, wouldn't you say? Especially for a parent.



> People who happened to be teachers, during summer break got COVID several days before the mask law change, and died shortly after a law change.
> 
> Sheesh, it's really a series of unrelated events.
> Clearly the masking change had nothing to do with these people dying, or getting COVID.
> The fact that they're teachers is irrelevant, because they were likely not in the classroom anyway.


 ... if you even read the the article (below quoted from the 2nd paragraph) it said:



> ...
> _The union's president, Anna Fusco, said *at least three of the four were unvaccinated,* per NBC Miami. _


 ... so it wasn't just a "mask" issue. I'm waiting to see to their governor next putting a ban on vaccines too ...


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Mortgage u/w said:


> Let me ask you - what do you tell the people that lost their loved ones due to contracting the covid virus? What about all the other viruses people died from which had a vaccine available for it???


Apparently the covid is so “deadly” that I personally did not know anyone who died from it.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Ukrainiandude said:


> Apparently the covid is so “deadly” that I personally did not know anyone who died from it.


You either know very few people or you conveniently filter the media that does not support your beliefs.

If you are correct, COVID must be the biggest conspiracy in all-time history - at a global level! Sure makes you smarter than the thousands of medical researchers throughout the world.


----------



## james4beach

Great news! Federal government has announced that vaccination will be mandatory in all federally regulated sectors.

Not just federal employees but also employees in regulated sectors, e.g. transportation sectors, and banking too I think





__





Loading…






www.cbc.ca


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Mortgage u/w said:


> You either know very few people or you conveniently filter the media that does not support your beliefs.
> 
> If you are correct, COVID must be the biggest conspiracy in all-time history - at a global level! Sure makes you smarter than the thousands of medical researchers throughout the world.


 My grandparents were sick with covid in spring. Grandpa turned 89 last week. Doing well for his age, appetite is better than mine.
I don’t judge covid by information from media, but by personal experience.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> Great news! Federal government has announced that vaccination will be mandatory in all federally regulated sectors.
> 
> Not just federal employees but also employees in regulated sectors, e.g. transportation sectors, and banking too I think
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbc.ca


I bet federal employees and people that interested in traveling already 99% vaccinated.
Class action lawsuit will be made in the nearest future, with government paying off millions of dollars.


He said accommodations will be made for "those few who are unable to be vaccinated," such as testing and screening.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Ukrainiandude said:


> My grandparents were sick with covid in spring. Grandpa turned 89 last week. Doing well for his age, appetite is better than mine.
> I don’t judge covid by information from media, but by personal experience.


So your expertise is based on the prognosis of 2 out of 8 billion people??


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Mortgage u/w said:


> So your expertise is based on the prognosis of 2 out of 8 billion people??


 I only mentioned those that are in the risk group. About twenty other people who I know had covid some few times. Most clinical signs were cold like symptoms, over half didn’t know they had covid, if not for the testing.
If everyone was basing their opinion on covid based on personal experience, this pandemic would have been over six months ago.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Ukrainiandude said:


> I only mentioned those that are in the risk group. About twenty other people who I know had covid some few times. Most clinical signs were cold like symptoms, over half didn’t know they had covid, if not for the testing.
> If everyone was basing their opinion on covid based on personal experience, this pandemic would have been over six months ago.


Sure but that's clearly not the case, hence, GLOBAL PANDEMIC.

Whether you believe the virus is deadly or not, you have to agree that the problem lies with the infection rate. By your logic, even if the vaccine doesn't prevent death, you have to agree that it will reduce its spread. And that is what the WORLD is trying to prevent. I know many who contracted it and got over it like your common cold. I also know some that had severe symptoms and still feel the effects months later. Sadly, I also know some that passed away from it.

Experts in the domain have provided a solution. Yet, lets all ignore them and focus on the non-experts and conspiracy theories. Is that your conclusion to defeating Covid? Or is the world over-reacting? What's your solution then - do nothing and it will just disappear? 

By your logic, we should fire everyone in the medical field and rely on Facebook for all medial diagnostics!


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> If everyone was basing their opinion on covid based on personal experience, this pandemic would have been over six months ago.


The anecdotes are useless. That's the whole point of looking at country and world statistics. But I'll share personal anecdotes too. I directly know 5 friends/family who caught COVID.

20%, 1 of them died (my friend's dad), roughly age 60
40%, 2 cases, friends + family, were men in their 30s who ended up in hospital for > 1 week
40%, 2 cases were mild, about as severe are the flu, and she stayed at home, also in 30s

The hospitalizations were very severe cases. I don't know about you, but I've never ended up in hospital in my life due to a cold or flu. One guy was coughing blood and called 911, the other landed in hospital with pneumonia and was there for several weeks. This second guy almost died.

Among my direct personal experiences, the *majority* of the people I know ended up with severe or deadly cases. Only 2 of 5 cases were "just a flu".


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Mortgage u/w said:


> Experts in the domain have provided a solution. Yet, lets all ignore them and focus on the non-experts and conspiracy theories. Is that your conclusion to defeating Covid? Or is the world over-reacting? What's your solution then - do nothing and it will just disappear?


People die all the time. Since vaccines are available now. It should be no question. Lift all restrictions and life should go on. The human population is nowhere of extinction.


----------



## damian13ster

Mortgage u/w said:


> Sure but that's clearly not the case, hence, GLOBAL PANDEMIC.
> 
> Whether you believe the virus is deadly or not, you have to agree that the problem lies with the infection rate. By your logic, even if the vaccine doesn't prevent death, you have to agree that it will reduce its spread. And that is what the WORLD is trying to prevent. I know many who contracted it and got over it like your common cold. I also know some that had severe symptoms and still feel the effects months later. Sadly, I also know some that passed away from it.
> 
> Experts in the domain have provided a solution. Yet, lets all ignore them and focus on the non-experts and conspiracy theories. Is that your conclusion to defeating Covid? Or is the world over-reacting? What's your solution then - do nothing and it will just disappear?
> 
> By your logic, we should fire everyone in the medical field and rely on Facebook for all medial diagnostics!


You got it completely backwards. 
Vaccine lowers your chances of dying
It doesn't stop the spread.

Vaccine helps an individual.
It doesn't protect anyone else as the individual can still spread the virus


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Apparently the covid is so “deadly” that I personally did not know anyone who died from it.


Just was thinking about it.... and yes, I don't know anyone , even people whom I know - don't know anyone who died from Covid. Even though I know about 20 people, family (include my daugther), friends, friend of friends erc sho had Covid. No one even when to a hospital and in the worst case, they describe it a bad flu.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> People die all the time. Since vaccines are available now. It should be no question. Lift all restrictions and life should go on. The human population is nowhere of extinction.


I was telling the same for ages! This is the maximum humanity can do now (existing vaccines)


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> You got it completely backwards.
> Vaccine lowers your chances of dying
> It doesn't stop the spread.
> 
> Vaccine helps an individual.
> It doesn't protect anyone else as the individual can still spread the virus


Yes, it doesn't stop spread completely , but to some degree (40%)


----------



## sags

It is irrelevant of who got covid before the Delta virus. This is a new virus.

I don't know anyone who died from covid, but then again I only know a handful of people in our city of 550,00.

Some of the people I didn't know died from covid though.


----------



## james4beach

I'm seeing CBC Newsworld talking about the new federal requirements.

It sounds like vaccination might be required for anyone flying on a plane. Or maybe I am misinterpreting?



gibor365 said:


> Yes, it doesn't stop spread completely , but to some degree (40%)


Vaccination reduces the spread. Fewer people become infected and the newest studies have also shown that even people with breakthrough cases are infectious for a shorter period of time.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> It is irrelevant of who got covid before the Delta virus. This is a new virus.
> 
> I don't know anyone who died from covid, but then again I only know a handful of people in our city of 550,00.
> 
> Some of the people I didn't know died from covid though.


Actually I don't know anyone at all who got delta virus... only who got original onw or UK variants...

sags, it funny, but do you know only people in your "city of 550,00."?! Except Ontario, I know many people in US, Russia, Israel.... btw, we have plenty of relatives in Israel and I'm with touch with some of my cops-coworkers.... no one got Covid at all!


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> 27 people aboard Carnival cruise test positive for COVID-19
> 
> ... such facility along with its requirements (underlined) doesn't give customers much confidence to attend. And still, oh well.


didn't they say mild cases? mild cases to my understanding mean little or no symptoms. Probably a lot less to worry about than a cold or the flu.


----------



## zinfit

Ukrainiandude said:


> It’s too bad you didn’t read my message thoroughly.
> One detected because he got large number of nephrons damaged.
> If less 70% of your nephrons are damaged you will not get any clinical signs but in the future any minor renal damage might cause renal failure. Also with age nephrons also got lost.
> Nephrons are not regenerate, so damage including from vaccines are accumulating.
> 
> I hope you got it this time.
> 
> I doubt Pfizer, Moderna will get you a kidney transplant in the future.


It still begs the question on how many cases have been reported and have the recognized public health authorities been tracking and researching the issue?. We know they quickly they got got involved with blood clotting with Astrazenca and J&J . I will need to see more evidence on this than one internet article before I will lose any sleep. By the way thank you for your condescending lecture. Not sure what it accomplished but if it makes you feel better that's good.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Ukrainiandude said:


> People die all the time. Since vaccines are available now. It should be no question. Lift all restrictions and life should go on. The human population is nowhere of extinction.


Yes people die all the time. Yes vaccines are available. Yes we can lift all restrictions IF we reach a satisfactory global immunization. An no, the human population is not at risk of extinction. I have no idea what your point is. But I ask again.....what is your solution then?



damian13ster said:


> You got it completely backwards.
> Vaccine lowers your chances of dying
> It doesn't stop the spread.
> 
> Vaccine helps an individual.
> It doesn't protect anyone else as the individual can still spread the virus


So what you are saying is a vaccine doesn't stop the spread......but it lowers your chance of dying......it helps someone....but not someone else. So if everyone is vaccinated, doesn't that help you? 

My backward thinking is confusing me.....


----------



## damian13ster

Mortgage u/w said:


> Yes people die all the time. Yes vaccines are available. Yes we can lift all restrictions IF we reach a satisfactory global immunization. An no, the human population is not at risk of extinction. I have no idea what your point is. But I ask again.....what is your solution then?
> 
> 
> 
> So what you are saying is a vaccine doesn't stop the spread......but it lowers your chance of dying......it helps someone....but not someone else. So if everyone is vaccinated, doesn't that help you?
> 
> My backward thinking is confusing me.....


If someone else is vaccinated it doesn't help me.
The fact that I am vaccinated helps me.

Since vaccination helps individual and not society, there is no justification for violating human rights.


----------



## like_to_retire

Mortgage u/w said:


> So what you are saying is a vaccine doesn't stop the spread......but it lowers your chance of dying......it helps someone....but not someone else. So if everyone is vaccinated, doesn't that help you?


Mortgage, you're arguing with a brick wall.

ltr


----------



## Mortgage u/w

damian13ster said:


> If someone else is vaccinated it doesn't help me.
> The fact that I am vaccinated helps me.
> 
> Since vaccination helps individual and not society, there is no justification for violating human rights.


This is complete nonsense. Not sure where which Facebook page you got your facts from.

If you understand and believe in what you just mentioned.......remind me why vaccination is a bad idea?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Mortgage u/w said:


> what is your solution then


Lift all restrictions at once. Whoever wanted to get vaccinated already did. 
If you are going to wait for the whole world to get vaccinated and then lift the restrictions, they will stay indefinitely.


----------



## damian13ster

like_to_retire said:


> Mortgage, you're arguing with a brick wall.
> 
> ltr


Not with a brick wall. Just someone who respects human rights and will never approve abuse of human rights of a minority.
If your purpose is to convince someone that human right abuse of minority by majority is good - then yeah. You will encounter a brick wall


----------



## damian13ster

Mortgage u/w said:


> This is complete nonsense. Not sure where which Facebook page you got your facts from.
> 
> If you understand and believe in what you just mentioned.......remind me why vaccination is a bad idea?


It isn't a bad idea. I am vaccinated myself.
Segregation based on what individual does with their body is a bad idea as it doesn't benefit society and is violation of individual's human rights


----------



## Mortgage u/w

like_to_retire said:


> Mortgage, you're arguing with a brick wall.
> 
> ltr


Not arguing. Just trying to understand their logic.....they clearly have an alternate solution that they are keeping for themselves. I want in!!


----------



## damian13ster

Mortgage u/w said:


> Not arguing. Just trying to understand their logic.....they clearly have an alternate solution that they are keeping for themselves. I want in!!


No alternative solution.
Vaccines have been manufactured. 
We know what they do and what their limitations are.
Everyone who wants a shot can get a shot
The fact that they get a shot gives them protection, but it has no effect on rest of society
THose who don't want a shot don't get protection, but it has no effect on rest of society.
Individual human rights can't be abused under any circumstances (my opinion)
Individual human rights can be abused if benefit society (opinion of others now, and in the past (nazism, racism, segregation, dictators, overall a good company)), but we now know that spread isn't stopped so there is no 'greater good' and not a single (even vile) reason to allow for human rights abuse and segregation.

I am with Ukrainiandude. We did what we could. There are no other magic bullets in the chamber. Time to get rid of all the restrictions and start fixing all the problems we have artificially created over last 2 years.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Ukrainiandude said:


> Lift all restrictions at once. Whoever wanted to get vaccinated already did.
> If you are going to wait for the whole world to get vaccinated and then lift the restrictions, they will stay indefinitely.


So its the restrictions you are against? Cause my world has not changed much. I still shop, travel, eat, work. Only difference is I sometimes need to wear a mask and am more conscious of my immediate surroundings.



damian13ster said:


> Not with a brick wall. Just someone who respects human rights and will never approve abuse of human rights of a minority.
> If your purpose is to convince someone that human right abuse of minority by majority is good - then yeah. You will encounter a brick wall


Does your province not oblige you to provide proof of having certain vaccines prior to entering the school system? Is that an abuse of human rights as well?


----------



## damian13ster

Mortgage u/w said:


> So its the restrictions you are against? Cause my world has not changed much. I still shop, travel, eat, work. Only difference is I sometimes need to wear a mask and am more conscious of my immediate surroundings.
> 
> 
> 
> Does your province not oblige you to provide proof of having certain vaccines prior to entering the school system? Is that an abuse of human rights as well?


You don't see a difference between a vaccine that eradicates disease and completely stops the spread vs one that doesn't stop the spread?
The 'greater good' argument has some merit in that regard. It doesn't here because vaccine doesn't stop the spread. 
But yes, if it was up to me, if I somehow got in power (don't wish to, zero attraction to it), then I would invest very heavily in improving education system but would remove the mandates.
The root cause of all our problems is that people are simply uneducated and there is no political will for improvement in this regard.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

damian13ster said:


> No alternative solution.
> Vaccines have been manufactured.
> We know what they do and what their limitations are.
> Everyone who wants a shot can get a shot
> *The fact that they get a shot gives them protection, but it has no effect on rest of society
> THose who don't want a shot don't get protection, but it has no effect on rest of society.*
> Individual human rights can't be abused under any circumstances (my opinion)
> Individual human rights can be abused if benefit society (opinion of others now, and in the past (nazism, racism, segregation, dictators, overall a good company)), but we now know that spread isn't stopped so there is no 'greater good' and not a single (even vile) reason to allow for human rights abuse and segregation.
> 
> I am with Ukrainiandude. We did what we could. There are no other magic bullets in the chamber. Time to get rid of all the restrictions and start fixing all the problems we have artificially created over last 2 years.


What scientific facts do you have to back *this *claim?

And please stop it with the human rights and comparing this to nazis and racism.


----------



## damian13ster

Mortgage u/w said:


> What scientific facts do you have to back *this *claim?
> 
> And please stop it with the human rights and comparing this to nazis and racism.


CDC








Outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 Infections, including COVID-19 ...


This report describes COVID-19 outbreaks associated with ...




www.cdc.gov





Comparisons are valid. Learn a little bit on how it all started, not just end effect


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> didn't they say mild cases? mild cases to my understanding mean little or no symptoms. Probably a lot less to worry about than a cold or the flu.


 ... but then imagine you were a "vacationer" there ... you had to go under several days of isolation still (as per the details of the article). Some cruise, eh?


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I'm seeing CBC Newsworld talking about the new federal requirements.
> 
> It sounds like vaccination might be required for anyone flying on a plane. Or maybe I am misinterpreting?
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccination reduces the spread. Fewer people become infected and the newest studies have also shown that even people with breakthrough cases are infectious for a shorter period of time.


Sounds like itl. Certainly applies to flights within in Canada. Not sure what their intention is for international flights on our domestic carriers. So far, WestJet has praised the decision.


----------



## Beaver101

Mortgage u/w said:


> What scientific facts do you have to back *this *claim?
> *
> And please stop it with the human rights and comparing this to nazis and racism.*


 ... it's his way of trying to twist things around when it's very clear that "we're all in it together" with the 'we' as being 'vaccinated and un-vaccinateds'. Ie. if there is no collaboration of the 2 parties, we are not going to get out of this pandemic ... anytime soon.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

damian13ster said:


> CDC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 Infections, including COVID-19 ...
> 
> 
> This report describes COVID-19 outbreaks associated with ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comparisons are valid. Learn a little bit on how it all started, not just end effect


So you read this and concluded that we should stop everything and go back to normal.
And the experts who read this concluded that vaccination is a must.

Who to trust?


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... it's his way of trying to twist things around when it's very clear that "we're all in it together" with the 'we' as being 'vaccinated and un-vaccinateds'. Ie. if there is no collaboration of the 2 parties, we are not going to get out of this pandemic ... anytime soon.


Collaboration?
You mean segregation?
You see any vaccinated wanting to collaborate with un-vaccinated?
Collaboration is necessary. Education is necessary. 
Coercion and segregation are not


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Sounds like itl. Certainly applies to flights within in Canada. Not sure what their intention is for international flights on our domestic carriers. So far, WestJet has praised the decision.


 ... should be the same. Vaccination requirement or proof thereof for inbound passengers - from anywhere.


----------



## damian13ster

Mortgage u/w said:


> So you read this and concluded that we should stop everything and go back to normal.
> And the experts who read this concluded that vaccination is a must.
> 
> Who to trust?


You compared apples to oranges.
My conclusion was never that vaccinations are bad.
I am vaccinated.
My conclusion is that vaccination doesn't stop the spread therefore segregation and human rights abuse are completely unnecessary.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Collaboration?
> You mean segregation?
> You see any vaccinated wanting to collaborate with un-vaccinated?
> Collaboration is necessary. Education is necessary.
> Coercion and segregation are not


 ... do you want to re-validate your 3rd question? Instead of just going on the offensive of ... segregation, coercion, Nazis, racism, excuses, excuses, excuses. What part of the 2 words "global" "pandemic" do you not understand?

As Mortgage u/w had asked: what's your solution?


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... do you want to re-validate your 3rd question? Instead of just going on the offensive of ... segregation, coercion, Nazis, racism, excuses, excuses, excuses. What part of the 2 words "global" "pandemic" do you not understand?
> 
> As Mortgage u/w had asked: what's your solution?


No, the third question is perfectly accurate. What I am hearing is coercion, mandates, segregation. Don't see any collaboration
I have said my solution multiple times: education, collaboration.
No coercion and segregation.
Make vaccine available (done) fix the messaging around it (those in power screwed it up badly so needs to be corrected).
Give time to anyone who wants to get vaccinated to get vaccinated (almost done by now)
Get back to normal.


----------



## Money172375

So we got our current crop of vaccines approved about 1 year after covid started. First shot of Pfizer was trialed about 5 months after COVID started.

delta was identified in oct 2020 and labelled a VOC in May 2021.

I haven‘t heard any news about “new” vaccines. Are they working on them? Progress? Or is the next step to offer a 3rd dose of the current “recipe”? We’re coming up on one year of the delta discovery.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

damian13ster said:


> You compared apples to oranges.
> My conclusion was never that vaccinations are bad.
> I am vaccinated.
> My conclusion is that vaccination doesn't stop the spread therefore segregation and human rights abuse are completely unnecessary.


I'm not accusing you of saying vaccinations are bad. I am simply questioning your assessment on the CDC article you posted. And again, please stop the human rights and segregation topic - completely irrelevant.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> No, the third question is perfectly accurate. What I am hearing is coercion, mandates, segregation. Don't see any collaboration
> *I have said my solution multiple times: education, collaboration.*
> No coercion and segregation.
> Make vaccine available (done) fix the messaging around it (those in power screwed it up badly so needs to be corrected).
> Give time to anyone who wants to get vaccinated to get vaccinated (almost done by now)
> Get back to normal.


 ... BS. You said neither. You were screaming the un-vaccinateds were being coerced, segregated, mandated, etc. (all anti-education and collaboration) and the vaccinateds are racists, like the Nazis, etc.... when you damn well know it's the total opposite. Sorry but I don't buy your posts of standing up for Human Rights when it comes down to this pandemic.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... BS. You said neither. You were screaming the un-vaccinateds were being coerced, segregated, mandated, etc. (all anti-education and collaboration) and the vaccinateds are racists, like the Nazis, etc.... when you damn well know it's the total opposite. Sorry but I don't buy your posts of standing up for Human Rights when it comes down to this pandemic.


Un-vaccinated are being coerced, segregated, mandated. Those are all facts. And yes, I agree. That is opposite of collaborations. Glad we finally agree on this topic.
Vaccinated are racists, like Nazis - never said that. Please find a quote if you make such outrageous claim. 
I said that segregationists and human rights abusers have same ideology as the abovementioned groups.
Not that all vaccinated. Again, I am vaccinated. Personal choice, and respect rights of others to make different choices, especially if they don't affect me.

Standing up for human rights every time. Not just during the pandemic


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> So we got our current crop of vaccines approved about 1 year after covid started. First shot of Pfizer was trialed about 5 months after COVID started.
> 
> delta was identified in oct 2020 and labelled a VOC in May 2021.
> 
> I haven‘t heard any news about “new” vaccines. Are they working on them? Progress? Or is the next step to offer a 3rd dose of the current “recipe”? We’re coming up on one year of the delta discovery.


 ... we're at the mercy of the vaccine producer(s). I'm just trying to imagine where we would be if there wasn't one made available. I think the world will come to an end with masking and social distancing forever ...


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Un-vaccinated are being coerced, segregated, mandated. Those are all facts. And yes, I agree. That is opposite of collaborations. Glad we finally agree on this topic.
> Vaccinated are racists, like Nazis - never said that. Please find a quote if you make such outrageous claim.
> I said that segregationists and human rights abusers have same ideology as the abovementioned groups.
> Not that all vaccinated. Again, I am vaccinated. Personal choice, and respect rights of others to make different choices, especially if they don't affect me.
> 
> Standing up for human rights every time. Not just during the pandemic


 .. you do realize that I have never once asked if you were vaccinated so no need to justify or trying to support your "claim of respecting the rights of others with the un-vaccinateds." 

Any decent human being with a conscience knows what's the proper thing to do, for themselves and for their fellow mankind.


----------



## sags

The experts are in disagreement to continue to make vaccines for countries that lack even first doses or lose some production to making booster shots.

The US is going to offer booster shots but only to specific groups of people who need the boost. Everybody else will wait.

WHO wants to delay the boosters until after September to roll out more vaccine to poor countries.

I suspect.........the wealthy countries will get the boosters because at the end of the day.....wealthy countries don't care a lot about poor countries.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> Honestly I don’t understand why harassing people
> You are all vaccinated and protected. Let the world live and enjoy life.
> If people don’t want to get vaccinated for whatever reason let them get sick and die. What is your problem with letting people die?


They will gobble hospital resources on the way out. Or become disabled and become a drain on society.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> I'm seeing CBC Newsworld talking about the new federal requirements.
> 
> It sounds like vaccination might be required for anyone flying on a plane. Or maybe I am misinterpreting?
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccination reduces the spread. Fewer people become infected and the newest studies have also shown that even people with breakthrough cases are infectious for a shorter period of time.


Interprovincial only.


----------



## AltaRed

andrewf said:


> Interprovincial only.


The federal requirement for vaccinations will have a domino effect for other businesses to garner some backbone and mandate vaccinations for most/all of their employees. Even if they don't, it will motivate fence sitters to get vaccinated. The G&M had an article (behind paywall) on that today(?). Well written article and speaks to human psychology very well. The fence sitters are primarily being selfish at this point and simply need a reason/motivator to improve their standing in society 

Very important given some elective surgeries are again getting postponed in the Central Okanagan. The majority now paying a price for the selfish few.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe says the province is not bringing in a requirement to show proof of vaccination before entering a business or attending a large event.
Scott Livingstone, the CEO of the Saskatchewan Health Authority, said even a business asking for someone’s health card number is not allowed unless it is related to providing health services.

I voted liberals for federal and NDP for provincial elections last time. In the future they won’t get my vote.


----------



## gibor365

_on Tuesday, Moore will unveil a new booster program that will begin dispensing third shots as soon as this month.

“As a first step it’s for vulnerable elderly people and the immunocompromised, such as cancer patients,” the second insider said.

“This is targeted and not for the broader population at this time. We want to follow the scientific advice and evidence.”_


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> I voted liberals for federal and NDP for provincial elections last time.


This statement was surprising for me


----------



## Johnny199r

gibor365 said:


> _on Tuesday, Moore will unveil a new booster program that will begin dispensing third shots as soon as this month.
> 
> “As a first step it’s for vulnerable elderly people and the immunocompromised, such as cancer patients,” the second insider said.
> 
> “This is targeted and not for the broader population at this time. We want to follow the scientific advice and evidence.”_


Thoughts on the world health organization begging rich countries to not give their citizen booster shots, but instead to give those shots to poor countries so their citizens can be vaccinated?


----------



## gibor365

Johnny199r said:


> Thoughts on the world health organization begging rich countries to not give their citizen booster shots, but instead to give those shots to poor countries so their citizens can be vaccinated?


You should care first of all about your family. 
And Who is WHO?! Some corrupted entity?!


----------



## Beaver101

This article is behind a paywall but part of it reads:


> USA TODAY
> *Refuse to get a vaccine? You might be hit with expensive medical bills, employer mandates*
> Ken Alltucker, USA TODAY Sat., August 14, 2021, 4:00 a.m.
> 
> _People who choose not to get vaccinated against the coronavirus face greater odds of getting seriously ill and hospitalized – a decision that could risk not just their health, but their finances as employers mandate vaccination and insurance companies look at ways to pass on the costs of treatment.
> 
> More than 90% of patients hospitalized with COVID-19 are unvaccinated. And because 41% of eligible Americans have not yet been fully immunized against the virus, some are pushing a new tactic – making the unvaccinated pay a larger share of their medical bills.
> 
> Advocates of the pocketbook approach say tens of millions of Americans who refuse vaccination make it riskier for everyone else, including kids who are not old enough to get vaccinated and have filled hospitals in some states. Taxpayers are on the hook for $178 billion in federal funds allocated to hospitals and health-care providers. Insurance premiums could rise across the board.
> 
> "There's a very clear line we can draw between (refusing) vaccination and getting COVID severe enough to put you in the hospital," said Jonathan Meer, an economics professor at Texas A&M University.
> 
> *"The unvaccinated are essentially asking for a handout, a subsidy for their stance, and that’s cheap talk. Standing up for your beliefs means being willing to take the consequences of them," he said.*_
> *Some health insurers already are sharing the financial pain with those sick enough to be hospitalized. ... *


 .. time for the un-vaccinateds to sue the insurance companies. 

Even though this policy is from the USA, this concept can potentially spill into Canada in another manner.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Israel's COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases Exceed 50%*
According to the Israeli Health Ministry COVID-19 data dashboard on August 11, 2021, the number of serious COVID-19 cases reached 405 yesterday, the highest one-day total since March 2021.

Furthermore, about 250 of these patients were fully vaccinated, known as a 'breakthrough case.'


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Furthermore, about 250 of these patients were fully vaccinated, known as a 'breakthrough case.'


Those numbers doesn't make sense. because if 100% are fully vaccinated , 100% in ICUs would be also fu;y vaccinated


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> Those numbers doesn't make sense. because if 100% are fully vaccinated , 100% in ICUs would be also fu;y vaccinated


Israel's COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases Exceed 50%
According to the Israeli Health Ministry COVID-19 data dashboard on August 11, 2021, the number of serious COVID-19 cases reached 405 yesterday, the highest one-day total since March 2021. Furthermore, about 250 of these patients were fully vaccinated, known as a 'breakthrough case.'

common comrade you can figure out the percentage of 250 (x% fully vaccinated) out of 405 (100%= total fully vaccinated plus unvaccinated )
you didn’t go to Canadian elementary school


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Israel's COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases Exceed 50%
> According to the Israeli Health Ministry COVID-19 data dashboard on August 11, 2021, the number of serious COVID-19 cases reached 405 yesterday, the highest one-day total since March 2021. Furthermore, about 250 of these patients were fully vaccinated, known as a 'breakthrough case.'
> 
> common comrade you can figure out the percentage of 250 (x% fully vaccinated) out of 405 (100%= total fully vaccinated plus unvaccinated )
> you didn’t go to Canadian elementary school


Common, Hlopetz,You also didn't go to Canadian elementary school  but you cannot understand simple logic! Those numbers make sense if Israel had 50% vaccinated and 50% unvaccinated.
But if 100% is vaccinated (and THERE ARE NO unvacinated people), ALL 405 out of 405 would be fully vaccinated.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> ALL 405 out of 405 would be fully vaccinated.


 Where did it say all 405 where fully vaccinated?
It didn’t.
it says number of serious cases reached 405, including 250 out of 405 fully vaccinated.


----------



## Spudd

5.4 million Israelis have received their 2nd dose. 
9.053 million is population of Israel. Therefore 3.653 million are unvaccinated.

250 vaccinated in hospital = 0.046 cases/100k
155 unvaccinated in hospital = 0.042 cases/100k

BUT, 28% of Israel's population is 0-14 years old. That's 2.2 million out of the 3.653 million, or 61% of the unvaccinated, leaving 1.45 million unvaccinated >14 years old. 

155 unvaccinated in hospital = 0.1 cases/100k

If you argue saying that 12-14 year olds could be vaccinated, OK, I can take only 0-9 year olds instead. 1.55 million leaving 2.1 million unvaccinated > 9 years old. 

155 unvaccinated in hospital = 0.074 cases/100k

That's 1.6x as many cases/100k as for the vaccinated population. And you have to remember that a much higher percentage of the elderly population is vaccinated than the non-elderly, and the elderly are the most likely to end up in hospital with covid. 

Nationally, some 90.2% of Israelis age 90-plus are vaccinated with at least two shots, and for the 80-89 age group the figure is 91.5%. It is even higher, 93.1%, for people in their 70s. But the rates decline among younger age groups: 87.2% for people in their 60s; 84.6 for people in their 50s and 81.2% for people in their 40s.

For Israelis in their 30s and 20s, the rates are 77.8% and 72.4% respectively. The 16-19 age group is only 68% vaccinated, and only 26.2% of 12- to 15-year-olds are fully vaccinated.









Among older Israelis, serious COVID rate six times as high if unvaccinated


As government desperately tries to galvanize 1.1 million who are spurning vaccine, data shows that severe cases also far higher among younger people if they aren't inoculated




www.timesofisrael.com


----------



## gibor365

Spudd said:


> 5.4 million Israelis have received their 2nd dose.
> 9.053 million is population of Israel. Therefore 3.653 million are unvaccinated.
> 
> 250 vaccinated in hospital = 0.046 cases/100k
> 155 unvaccinated in hospital = 0.042 cases/100k
> 
> BUT, 28% of Israel's population is 0-14 years old. That's 2.2 million out of the 3.653 million, or 61% of the unvaccinated, leaving 1.45 million unvaccinated >14 years old.
> 
> 155 unvaccinated in hospital = 0.1 cases/100k
> 
> If you argue saying that 12-14 year olds could be vaccinated, OK, I can take only 0-9 year olds instead. 1.55 million leaving 2.1 million unvaccinated > 9 years old.
> 
> 155 unvaccinated in hospital = 0.074 cases/100k
> 
> That's 1.6x as many cases/100k as for the vaccinated population. And you have to remember that a much higher percentage of the elderly population is vaccinated than the non-elderly, and the elderly are the most likely to end up in hospital with covid.
> 
> Nationally, some 90.2% of Israelis age 90-plus are vaccinated with at least two shots, and for the 80-89 age group the figure is 91.5%. It is even higher, 93.1%, for people in their 70s. But the rates decline among younger age groups: 87.2% for people in their 60s; 84.6 for people in their 50s and 81.2% for people in their 40s.
> 
> For Israelis in their 30s and 20s, the rates are 77.8% and 72.4% respectively. The 16-19 age group is only 68% vaccinated, and only 26.2% of 12- to 15-year-olds are fully vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Among older Israelis, serious COVID rate six times as high if unvaccinated
> 
> 
> As government desperately tries to galvanize 1.1 million who are spurning vaccine, data shows that severe cases also far higher among younger people if they aren't inoculated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timesofisrael.com


That's what I tried to explaine to dude .

The major points:
-_Despite the Delta variant, vaccines are delivering high protection, and the rate of serious infections in Israel is* six times higher among older people who fail to inoculate* than others in the same age bracket. 
For every 100,000 people under 60 who are not vaccinated, 1.6 are in serious condition with the coronavirus. Among the fully vaccinated the figure is 0.5. -> _3.2 times higher chance to get serious infection for unvaccinated


----------



## andrewf

My employer is making noises about mandatory office attendance starting in November, and my manager and 2 up manager are talking about 'voluntary' meetings at the office. I'm having deja vu. Last year, during the summer, they were in denial about how pandemics work and thought we'd all be back by Thanksgiving. Israel, I think, shows that this isn't over yet. 

Hopefully we don't see any variants worse than Delta, but I think high levels of Delta spread are going to be enough to put the brakes on jamming a bunch of office workers back into offices. Really, big offices are recipes for wanton spread as you have people moving all over the place, talking. On any given day, you probably have a dozen people out of 2000 that work in an office coming in infected. Probably a lot less safe than many front-line jobs except some manufacturing jobs. At least with manufacturing you can have effective cohorting to minimize how many people you are exposed to each day.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> My employer is making noises about mandatory office attendance starting in November, and my manager and 2 up manager are talking about 'voluntary' meetings at the office. I'm having deja vu. Last year, during the summer, they were in denial about how pandemics work and thought we'd all be back by Thanksgiving. Israel, I think, shows that this isn't over yet.
> 
> Hopefully we don't see any variants worse than Delta, but I think high levels of Delta spread are going to be enough to put the brakes on jamming a bunch of office workers back into offices. Really, big offices are recipes for wanton spread as you have people moving all over the place, talking. On any given day, you probably have a dozen people out of 2000 that work in an office coming in infected. Probably a lot less safe than many front-line jobs except some manufacturing jobs. At least with manufacturing you can have effective cohorting to minimize how many people you are exposed to each day.


Guess it depends where you are.
We ware fill time in the office since July 16. My previous workplace returned to the office August 1. 
Majority of my friends were told they are going back to the office September 1 (whether that will turn out to be the case - we will see.


----------



## andrewf

Alberta?

In Ontario, we are putting the brakes on further reopening. Indoor gathering limits are still limited to 25 people. I don't see how that is conducive to a normal office environment. If I go in now (I have several times for IT support, etc.) I have to wear a mask the whole day, book a particular workstation, no more than 2 people in an elevator or meeting room. It seems rather pointless, and less effective than working from home. Communicating through a mask is tiresome as you have to articulate much more to be understood.


----------



## damian13ster

Yes. We are also putting brakes on reopening (it is stupid, changes that would be introduced Aug 16 would actually end the pandemic but got delayed) but few people care. Offices are calling employees back in.
I don't like it for selfish reason - relatively long commute, but can understand it as work is more effective due to much better communication.


----------



## zinfit

I was in a lab getting some blood work. The video screen dwelt with ways of dealing with smoke. The presentation said facemasks were not of any assistance because the smoke particles are to small to filter.Is the covid virus larger then smoke particles?


----------



## sags

According to some of the experts I have heard, only an N95 mask or better is effective against covid.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

zinfit said:


> I was in a lab getting some blood work. The video screen dwelt with ways of dealing with smoke. The presentation said facemasks were not of any assistance because the smoke particles are to small to filter.Is the covid virus larger then smoke particles?


it is within the droplets.


----------



## andrewf

zinfit said:


> I was in a lab getting some blood work. The video screen dwelt with ways of dealing with smoke. The presentation said facemasks were not of any assistance because the smoke particles are to small to filter.Is the covid virus larger then smoke particles?


The virus itself is quite small, but are mainly spread in droplets or aerosol particles that are much larger. Smoke particles of concern are 2.5 microns or smaller.


----------



## MrMatt

More side effects with the vaccines.




__





Health Canada updates Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine label to reflect very rare reports of Bell's Palsy - Canada.ca







healthycanadians.gc.ca





Now that the Pfizer seems to have more common serious side effects than the AZ, should they consider using AZ instead of the mRNA?

At what point do the side effects make it "okay" for people in their teens to say no?
What about the fact that the anti-vaxxers haven't approved the vaccines for kids yet? there are millions of children unprotected!

Is it because kids don't matter, or simply that they're not sure that the risks outweight the benefits for that age group.


----------



## kcowan

I had heard that this side effect was caused by the injection intersecting with a nerve in the arm. It was a first person account. Strictly an unsubstantiated rumour!


----------



## sags

The article said symptoms were very rare and temporary.

AZ is permanently off the table. All public confidence in that vaccine and the manufacturer is lost.


----------



## Spudd

MrMatt said:


> More side effects with the vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Health Canada updates Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine label to reflect very rare reports of Bell's Palsy - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> healthycanadians.gc.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now that the Pfizer seems to have more common serious side effects than the AZ, should they consider using AZ instead of the mRNA?
> 
> At what point do the side effects make it "okay" for people in their teens to say no?
> What about the fact that the anti-vaxxers haven't approved the vaccines for kids yet? there are millions of children unprotected!
> 
> Is it because kids don't matter, or simply that they're not sure that the risks outweight the benefits for that age group.


It's already okay for people in their teens to say no! But it seems unwise, given that especially the delta variant seems to be affecting kids. 

Bell's palsy is normally very transient and I think reasonably common as well. I had it once for an afternoon due to some extreme stress at work.


----------



## bgc_fan

Spudd said:


> But it seems unwise, given that especially the delta variant seems to be affecting kids.


It's obvious, but people should realize that the reason why it's affecting the kids is due to the increased numbers kids are getting infected and they aren't vaccinated. Unlike the previous waves where not as many kids were infected. Even if only a fraction of a percentage of infected end up dying, the fact that there are much more greater numbers of infected will lead to increase of deaths.


----------



## Beaver101

Continuing on my post #3823 from 4 days ago (and today is Monday August 16, 2021):

Ford to meet with cabinet to discuss mandatory vaccinations for healthcare and education workers: sources



> *... 'We are not done with COVID yet,’ Ford says*
> 
> Tonight’s cabinet meetings comes as cases counts continue their upward trend and Ford warns Ontarians that “we are not done with COVID yet” and that the virus “will be something we live with for a while longer.”
> ...


 ... and summer ain't even over yet with back to school & back to the office is around the corner (for some).

Update (August 17, 2021): 
Ford government approves mandatory COVID-19 vaccine or testing policy for education and health workers

Sounds like the pandemic is going to be over soon in Ontario.


----------



## Beaver101

Vaughan parent charged after allegedly sending child with COVID-19 symptoms to daycare

That daycare should be checking out their liability policy.


----------



## sags

One kid........and the virus spreads all over, including adults who had nothing to do with the daycare center.......and whoever they contacted.

Imagine what reopening schools is going to look like.


----------



## andrewf

Israel is a pretty good preview of where we are headed, particularly if we are thinking that vaccines alone are all we need to do to manage the pandemic.









Israel’s Recent Surge Confirms We Need A Multimodal Strategy To Fight Covid-19


Cases are occurring in both vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, yet with one of the highest vaccination rates in the world, Israel’s experience confirms that no single modality will control Covid-19 alone, as the virus continues to evolve and mutate.




www.forbes.com


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> Vaughan parent charged after allegedly sending child with COVID-19 symptoms to daycare
> 
> That daycare should be checking out their liability policy.


For what? Being the victims of fraud?
Where the offender was charged for it?


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> For what? Being the victims of fraud?
> Where the offender was charged for it?


 .. lawsuits? Hope the parents using that daycare are generous.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> One kid........and the virus spreads all over, including adults who had nothing to do with the daycare center.......and whoever they contacted.
> 
> *Imagine what reopening schools is going to look like.*


 ... roll the dice. Lecce can always figure something out at the last minute. He's good at it since he got a great boss.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> The article said symptoms were very rare and temporary.
> 
> AZ is permanently off the table. All public confidence in that vaccine and the manufacturer is lost.


Four people in my family got AZ. Nothing wrong with it, really.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> .. lawsuits? Hope the parents using that daycare are generous.


For what? Were they in any way negligent?
It's important that the person who committed the actual act broke the law.

Finally daycares tend not to have money anyway, there's nobody to pay for it.
A few toys in a rented space, if they sue, it just means they'll go bankrupt.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> For what? Were they in any way negligent?
> It's important that the person who committed the actual act broke the law.
> 
> Finally daycares tend not to have money anyway, there's nobody to pay for it.
> A few toys in a rented space, if they sue, it just means they'll go bankrupt.


 ... you're right. If parents sue, the business can declare bankruptcy as with parents pulling their kids. Bad for business all around with that publicity ... all because of 1 wicked individual (or 1 set of wicked individuals).


----------



## damian13ster

I am confused. The child had visible symptoms the moment he arrived at daycare? Why was he allowed in?
I know a daycare owner here and they do a quick checkup (visual, temperature) at the entrance.
If he didn't display enough symptoms for daycare staff to notice at the point of entry then how could one prove beyond reasonable doubt that parents knew?


----------



## Beaver101

^ Maybe the parents bullied their way in ... and the daycare was soft to the point of negligence to allow an "alleged" positive case in. And I don't think PPH willy-nilly issue fines ... or the "alleged" fine. Anyhow, everyone there now suffers. Oh well.


----------



## damian13ster

Willy-nilly fines are modus-operandi of Canadian justice system.
The amount of times I had to go to court to prove that I didn't do any modifications to my windshield but it was tinted from the get-go is in double digits.
Even though I have paper work proving that with me in a car.
The only response from law enforcement is 'you can go to court' 
Thank god my boss is understanding of the situation.

There is very little information provided in the article and a lot of jumping to conclusion. Someone messed up (or not), but it is pretty hard to assign blame.
What if kid had no visible symptoms (hence passed inspection, etc.), felt fine at home, but developed symptoms already in day care?
The result would be exactly the same (spread), but neither party can really be vilified for that.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... you're right. If parents sue, the business can declare bankruptcy as with parents pulling their kids. Bad for business all around with that publicity ... all because of 1 wicked individual (or 1 set of wicked individuals).


So there will be a few weeks with less daycare available for kids.
Then those exact same workers will go to another daycare.

All that happened is an inconvenience for parents and some paperwork shutting down one daycare and opening another.
Lots of wasted money for no benefit.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Willy-nilly fines are modus-operandi of Canadian justice system.


 ... consider themselve(s) lucky with the "willy-nilly" fine here and not charged with something else, violation of the laws - not going to list them here.



> *The amount of times I had to go to court *to prove that I didn't do any modifications to my windshield but it was tinted from the get-go is in double digits.
> Even though I have paper work proving that with me in a car.
> The only response from law enforcement is 'you can go to court'
> Thank god my boss is understanding of the situation.


 ... not exactly sure what your situation was but based on the bolded part, obviously the choice was yours. Be a rebel and go to court however, monkey court you think it is and prove it otherwise. Besides, you got the time and the money and an "understanding" boss. And you're not in law enforcement.



> There is very little information provided in the article and a lot of jumping to conclusion. Someone messed up (or not), but it is pretty hard to assign blame.
> What if kid had no visible symptoms (hence passed inspection, etc.), felt fine at home, but developed symptoms already in day care?
> The result would be exactly the same (spread), but neither party can really be vilified for that.


 ... maybe you can tell that to the PPH department - "hey, you guys messed up with that fine."


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> So there will be a few weeks with less daycare available for kids.
> Then those exact same workers will go to another daycare.


 ... provided those daycare workers don't get sick first.



> All that happened is an inconvenience for parents and some paperwork shutting down one daycare and opening another.
> *Lots of wasted money for no benefit.*


 ...tell that to the (other) parents who have to go to work.


----------



## sags

I doubt the schools will be open. The pandemic has decided the kids need to study online for awhile longer.


----------



## zinfit

The Israelis know that the effectiveness for the Pfizer vaccine is about 7 months. They have been having a large number of breakthrough cases and are busy with a booster program. With the limited information on the third shot it looks like it is highly effective. It seems apparent to me we should be preparing for a third round of vaccinations this fall. I believe the US is moving in that direction. I don't know what the situation is with Moderna. According to British and Mayo Clinic research it appears to be more effective than the Pfizer vaccine.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> I doubt the schools will be open. The pandemic has decided the kids need to study online for awhile longer.


 ... but Lecce wants them to. He's hearing alot from the side of "it's bad for their mental health if the kids aren't in school" Besides, all the HVAC systems are being upgraded to minimize Covid spread (if you would believe in it).


----------



## sags

I predicted early in the pandemic that we would develop vaccines, but many say oh no, it will take years to develop a vaccine.

The only ingredient necessary to create new vaccines quickly was money. The influx of virtually unlimited funding led to quick vaccines.

I suspect the same will be true of a cure for all forms of this virus. All it takes is a little bit of time and lots of money.

People need to be patient for a little longer. Who knows what science will deliver in the next 12 months.

Already they are developing vaccines in pill or nasal spray form.


----------



## andrewf

zinfit said:


> The Israelis know that the effectiveness for the Pfizer vaccine is about 7 months. They have been having a large number of breakthrough cases and are busy with a booster program. With the limited information on the third shot it looks like it is highly effective. It seems apparent to me we should be preparing for a third round of vaccinations this fall. I believe the US is moving in that direction. I don't know what the situation is with Moderna. According to British and Mayo Clinic research it appears to be more effective than the Pfizer vaccine.


Sounds like this is in motion from a procurement standpoint already. There was supposed to be an Ontario cabinet meeting today to discuss booster shots for at-risk groups and to what extent reopening should be slowed.

I am quite confident kids will be back in school in September, and they really ought to be. Home learning is not effective for young children and very disruptive for families.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> I predicted early in the pandemic that we would develop vaccines, but many say oh no, it will take years to develop a vaccine.
> 
> The only ingredient necessary to create new vaccines quickly was money. The influx of virtually unlimited funding led to quick vaccines.
> 
> I suspect the same will be true of a cure for all forms of this virus. All it takes is a little bit of time and lots of money.
> 
> People need to be patient for a little longer. Who knows what science will deliver in the next 12 months.


The standard of care is improving constantly for COVID. There are several drugs that have been shown to be helpful in accelerating recovery, and we learned a lot about how to provide respiratory support.


----------



## sags

Beaver101 said:


> ... but Lecce wants them to. He's hearing alot from the side of "it's bad for their mental health if the kids aren't in school" Besides, all the HVAC systems are being upgraded to minimize Covid spread (if you would believe in it).


That whole "bad for mental health" mantra is fake. The statistics show no increase in suicides or mental health for kids. It is a favorite fake line used by people who want to remove restrictions and open up.

Simple Google research will reveal that it is fake news. Suicides in kids is very rare and a 50% "increase" may mean 1 or 2 youth in a given area. In other areas the number decreased. A plea for more funding from mental health groups should come as no surprise, but the statistics don't match the claims.

Even on it's face it is a ridiculous claim. Here we are in "summer vacation" period, something that has happened every year for generations and there was no increase in depression or suicides through all those years.

Upgrading HVAC won't stop the virus. Kids get together on school buses, in the playground and before and after school. It is a ridiculous concept that it can be safe to reopen schools. We know for a fact schools are super spreaders in the surrounding local community.

Kids need to be back in school.......but only when it is safe to do so.

The suicide wave that never was.......

_*The notion that lockdowns increased the rate of death by suicide last year has become common knowledge. It’s not backed up by data. 

According to Tyler Black, a suicidologist and the medical director of emergency psychiatry at British Columbia Children’s Hospital, 2020 was, for all its many horrors, likely just an average year when it comes to suicide in both children and adults. “There was no wave from March to August—like, none—and we’re quite certain about that,” he told me. In fact, the preliminary data from the CDC show that deaths by suicide dropped by 5.6 percent in 2020 from the year before, reaching their lowest total since 2015. *_









The Suicide Wave That Never Was


The notion that lockdowns increased the rate of death by suicide last year has become common knowledge. It’s not backed up by data.




www.theatlantic.com


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... provided those daycare workers don't get sick first.
> 
> ...tell that to the (other) parents who have to go to work.


The other parents are the ones losing daycare.

Think about it, you need the daycare, if you sue them, they shut down, and you don't have daycare.

All because some other parent caused trouble.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... but Lecce wants them to. He's hearing alot from the side of "it's bad for their mental health if the kids aren't in school" Besides, all the HVAC systems are being upgraded to minimize Covid spread (if you would believe in it).


It is brutal on kids, they really need the social interaction. I'm glad sports are going right now.
I just hope it stays open.

Maybe if someone sorts out the anti-vaxxers, we can get the vaccine that Truduea promised for the fall.
It's almost september, and millions of Canadians are still blocked from getting vaccinated.

Go back, I called it.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... consider themselve(s) lucky with the "willy-nilly" fine here and not charged with something else, violation of the laws - not going to list them here.
> 
> ... not exactly sure what your situation was but based on the bolded part, obviously the choice was yours. Be a rebel and go to court however, monkey court you think it is and prove it otherwise. Besides, you got the time and the money and an "understanding" boss. And you're not in law enforcement.
> 
> ... maybe you can tell that to the PPH department - "hey, you guys messed up with that fine."


I think you are missing a point.
A fine was completely unjust because it is legal if the tint is done by manufacturer on the assembly line.
Despite that, and despite of a proof of it, the fines are unjustly given out, or as someone stated 'willy-nilly' fines.

The same happens in multiple cases all across Canada. 'Willy-nilly' fines are modus operandi in this country.

And it is not being a rebel. If someone gives you a fine despite you not breaking a law, then you go to overturn that fine. It has been overturned in 100% of cases.
How many people do not have time or opportunity though to fight those 'willy-nilly' fines and simply pay the fine despite never breaking any laws? The government is basically stealing your money by taking advantage of you not having time or resources to go to court date to overturn 'willy-nilly' fines they give

Please, read with comprehension before replying


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> I think you are missing a point.
> A fine was completely unjust because it is legal if the tint is done by manufacturer on the assembly line.
> Despite that, and despite of a proof of it, the fines are unjustly given out, or as someone stated 'willy-nilly' fines.


 ... then if you're so smart, why don't you quote the cop who handed you the ticket, the "law". You have that right. 



> The same happens in multiple cases all across Canada. 'Willy-nilly' fines are modus operandi in this country.
> 
> And it is not being a rebel. If someone gives you a fine despite you not breaking a law, then you go to overturn that fine. It has been overturned in 100% of cases.


 ... sure, if you truly believe you didn't break the law, then go to court and have it overturned.



> How many people do not have time or opportunity though to fight those 'willy-nilly' fines and simply pay the fine despite never breaking any laws? The government is basically stealing your money by taking advantage of you not having time or resources to go to court date to overturn 'willy-nilly' fines they give
> 
> Please, read with comprehension before replying


 .. perhaps you should re-read your post #3950 (requoted in bold here):



> ...* The amount of times I had to go to court to prove that I didn't do any modifications to my windshield but it was tinted from the get-go is in double digits.*


 ... the saddest part of your rant is you knew you were going to be fined but you just kept at it, trying to "prove" the fines were willy-nilly because what you had was perfectly legal (probably is by sitting in the showroom).

Don't you think you have too much time (if not money) on your hands, accomplishing nothing in reality? Or that my comprehension of your post is other reading useless words.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> The other parents are the ones losing daycare.
> 
> Think about it, you need the daycare, if you sue them, they shut down, and you don't have daycare.
> 
> All because some other parent caused trouble.


 ... even the parents are generous and don't sue, I don't think they would be comfortable of sending their kids back to this daycare. 

As said in my post #3947 "_Bad for business all around with that publicity ... all because of 1 wicked individual (or 1 set of wicked individuals)._"


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... even the parents are generous and don't sue, I don't think they would be comfortable of sending their kids back to this daycare.
> 
> As said in my post #3947 "_Bad for business all around with that publicity ... all because of 1 wicked individual (or 1 set of wicked individuals)._"


I know when my son got injured at daycare, he was back 2 days later.
Stuff happens.

It matters if it was the staff or parents at fault.
Having seen how some parents treat the daycare, I'm surprised there haven't been more cases.

Some parents are unbelievable. There were parents who literally made a bigger deal of a lost sock than other parents when they had to call an ambulance.
Regarding the ambulance, @#[email protected]#$ happens, the kid ended up fine.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... then if you're so smart, why don't you quote the cop who handed you the ticket, the "law". You have that right.
> 
> ... sure, if you truly believe you didn't break the law, then go to court and have it overturned.
> 
> .. perhaps you should re-read your post #3950 (requoted in bold here):
> 
> ... the saddest part of your rant is you knew you were going to be fined but you just kept at it, trying to "prove" the fines were willy-nilly because what you had was perfectly legal (probably is by sitting in the showroom).
> 
> Don't you think you have too much time (if not money) on your hands, accomplishing nothing in reality? Or that my comprehension of your post is other reading useless words.


What in the world are you talking about?

Was I supposed to sell my car purchased 6 years ago, that is completely legal, and that is in great condition just because canadian officials don't know the rules?
It isn't my fault that modus operandi of Canadian officials is to give out "willy-nilly" fines without any legal basis.
So I am doing what I can - go to court and have fine overturned. And it gets overturned 100% of time because it shouldn't be given in the first place.

The only way to avoid getting "willy-nilly" fine is to sell perfectly legal car that I took great care of for past 6 years. Screw that.

Anyway, you are completely off-topic.
The claim was that fines aren't given "willy-nilly". That is not true. They are. That's why we have court system to overturn them, and it is doing a good job


----------



## Money172375

Booster shots coming to high risk individuals in Ontario…apparently as early as this week. Hoping they don’t make my family eligible family members jump through hoops. Took weeks to get an expedited 2nd dose.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Ontario
The directive doesn't make COVID-19 vaccination compulsory, but those who decline the shots will need to undergo regular antigen testing for the virus. It's similar to one already in place in the province's long-term care homes.
Staff at health-care facilities will need to provide proof of full immunization against COVID-19 or a medical reason for not being vaccinated. *Those who don't get the shots will need to complete an education session about COVID-19 vaccines and will be routinely tested for the virus before coming to work.*



Those not vaccinated against the illness will be required to undergo frequent rapid antigen testing.

Tests will be required on site or in advance at least *once a week *and could escalate to two to three times a week, Moore said.

I think that’s fair for everyone.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

We're unequivocal that civil servants must be vaccinated. If anyone doesn't have a legitimate medical reason for not getting fully vaccinated — or chooses to not get vaccinated — there will be consequences," Trudeau said, without explaining what sort of punishment a bureaucrat could face for shunning the vaccine.

Almost back to USSR, the communists party said that every communist must be vaccinated.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> ...
> Anyway, you are completely off-topic.
> The claim was that fines aren't given "willy-nilly". That is not true. They are. That's why we have court system to overturn them, and it is doing a good job


 ... maybe it's just your luck (and that charged parent with an infectious kid) that get "willy-nilly" fines. And again your luck that the court did a good job too in overturning your fines. At least we got a legal system you can maul over, otherwise it'll be another one of your screaming claim of abuse on (your version of) human rights.


----------



## Beaver101

Ontario PC caucus members have until Thursday to get vaccinated: Ford’s office

Ford trying to lead by example? That would be genuine.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> We're unequivocal that civil servants must be vaccinated. If anyone doesn't have a legitimate medical reason for not getting fully vaccinated — or chooses to not get vaccinated — there will be consequences," Trudeau said, without explaining what sort of punishment a bureaucrat could face for shunning the vaccine.
> 
> Almost back to USSR, the communists party said that every communist must be vaccinated.


We are "back to USSR" since Trudeau became a dictator


----------



## gibor365

On August 15 Israel recorded 46 death, the absolute maximum was 61 at end of January! Looks like no vaccines, no masks , no other BS aren't helping! Canada , for sure, will repeat same trend in couple of months.
Just lift all restriction, let people live a norma life...who wants 3rd or 4th dose - let them have it. in any case, humanity cannot do anything against this Chinese virus!


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> Almost back to USSR, the communists party said that every communist must be vaccinated.


You are bringing up the USSR for some bizarre reason.

Both the US and Canadian military require members of the military to be vaccinated. And children must have mandatory vaccinations to attend public schools. As this Ontario web page describes, it's the law.

You cannot attend school in Ontario if you haven't been immunized for polio, rubella, and many others.

_Let me frame this in terms you seem to prefer_

*Brave American capitalist champions of freedom* require that every soldier is vaccinated. Brave capitalist fighters are required to get MMR and other vaccinations, and this DoD immunization document also describes how EVERY active duty and reserve personnel must get the annual flu shot. And here's what they wrote back in 2019: "During an outbreak, pandemic influenza immunizations will be required"

Similarly, American schools require that brave young capitalists in training also receive mandatory vaccinations.

So you're in luck @Ukrainiandude . It appears that brave capitalist freedom fighters, and their little capitalist children, require vaccination.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Booster shots coming to high risk individuals in Ontario…apparently as early as this week. Hoping they don’t make my family eligible family members jump through hoops. Took weeks to get an expedited 2nd dose.


I wonder how they are going to define high risk individuals. This sounds like a tricky thing to define.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> _Let me frame this in terms you seem to prefer_
> 
> *Brave American capitalist champions of freedom* require that every soldier is vaccinated. Brave capitalist fighters are required to get MMR and other vaccinations, and this DoD immunization document also describes how EVERY active duty and reserve personnel must get the annual flu shot. And here's what they wrote back in 2019: "During an outbreak, pandemic influenza immunizations will be required"


every soldier is vaccinated ONLY with fully appoved by FDA vaccine, not with emergemcy appoval vaccine (aka Covid vaccines)...and don't copare contact army solgiers 9who also for example should pass physical test on constant basc) with civilians.


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> every soldier is vaccinated ONLY with fully appoved by FDA vaccine, not with emergemcy appoval vaccine (aka Covid vaccines)...and don't copare contact army solgiers 9who also for example should pass physical test on constant basc) with civilians.


All schoolchildren have mandatory vaccination.


----------



## Money172375

%


james4beach said:


> I wonder how they are going to define high risk individuals. This sounds like a tricky thing to define.



Transplant recipients (including solid organ transplant and hematopoietic stem cell transplants);
Patients with hematological cancers (examples include lymphoma, myeloma, leukemia) on active treatment (chemotherapy, targeted therapies, immunotherapy);
Recipients of an anti-CD20 agent (e.g. rituximab, ocrelizumab, ofatumumab); and
Residents of high-risk congregate settings including long-term care homes, higher-risk licensed retirement homes and First Nations elder care lodges.


----------



## m3s

james4beach said:


> *Brave American capitalist champions of freedom* require that every soldier is vaccinated. Brave capitalist fighters are required to get MMR and other vaccinations, and this DoD immunization document also describes how EVERY active duty and reserve personnel must get the annual flu shot. And here's what they wrote back in 2019: "During an outbreak, pandemic influenza immunizations will be required"


Reality is a surprising number of my american counterparts aren't vaccinated. The policy just means they have to have a discussion with a health care provider or religious cult of choice to get a handwritten waiver. I could scribble a waiver for aspiring jedi masters or flying spaghetti monsters.

The marines are hazing anyone who gets vaccinated. It's mostly the invincible 20-something males. They all have fake CDC proof of vaccination for going out too because it's just a piece of paper with some handwritten scribbles (great use case for blockchain ledgers by the way)


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> Ontario PC caucus members have until Thursday to get vaccinated: Ford’s office
> 
> Ford trying to lead by example? That would be genuine.


It's what he's been doing in politics for decades.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> It's what he's been doing in politics for decades.


 ... want to re-examine your post re leading his brother Rob (RIP), once mayor of TO ?


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... want to re-examine your post re leading his brother Rob (RIP), once mayor of TO ?


Huh?
You said Doug Ford is leading by example.
yes Doug Ford is leading by example.

What does that have to do with the actions of Rob Ford?
Just so you know, brothers are actually different people.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> It appears that brave capitalist freedom fighters, and their little capitalist children, require vaccination.


Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said Friday that 70% of active-duty troops have received at least one shot of a COVID-19 vaccine. But that is far behind the Pentagon's original goal, when officials suggested earlier this year that the whole force could be vaccinated by mid-July.

The vaccination rates are up slightly from July 6, when Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby said 68.8% of the active-duty force had received at least one shot.



Austin said on Twitter that 62% of active-duty service members are now fully vaccinated, adding the hashtag #WeCanDoThis.

###
Most teens heading back to school in the coming weeks will be unvaccinated against Covid-19, federal data suggests. 
As many teens across the United States prepare for a return to school this fall, a new CNN analysis finds that less than a third of them are on track to be fully vaccinated against Covid-19 in the next two weeks.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> On August 15 Israel recorded 46 death, the absolute maximum was 61 at end of January! Looks like no vaccines, no masks , no other BS aren't helping! Canada , for sure, will repeat same trend in couple of months.
> Just lift all restriction, let people live a norma life...who wants 3rd or 4th dose - let them have it. in any case, humanity cannot do anything against this Chinese virus!


Couldn’t agree more.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Huh?
> You said Doug Ford is leading by example.
> yes Doug Ford is leading by example.
> 
> What does that have to do with the actions of Rob Ford?
> Just so you know, brothers are actually different people.


 ... either you had temporary memory lapse there or conveniently forgot part of your post " _It's what he's been doing in politics for *decades*._" 

I, honestly, don't think he was leading by example, certainly not a "good" example for his brother as mayor of TO ... in the past decade.

You could say Doug made more than an 180 degrees turn when he became premier of this province (aka politics for the people of Ontario), especially during this pandemic. As for playing politics as a typical bureaucrat, I'm still not impressed.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... either you had temporary memory lapse there or conveniently forgot part of your post " _It's what he's been doing in politics for *decades*._"


Okay, "over a decade"


> I, honestly, don't think he was leading by example, certainly not a "good" example for his brother as mayor of TO ... in the past decade.


Huh? are you talking about Doug Ford, or some other person?



> You could say Doug made more than an 180 degrees turn when he became premier of this province (aka politics for the people of Ontario), especially during this pandemic. As for playing politics as a typical bureaucrat, I'm still not impressed.


When you say more than 180degrees, do you mean like all the way around, like 359 degrees, so he's pointed back in pretty much the same direction?

I didn't approve of the Doug Ford Election campaign, but I think he's very good for Ontario, and no he isn't a typical bureaucrat, he's working hard to fix as much as he can, as quick as he can.
As remarked here, he was working on a massive overhaul of LTC, that was unfortunately derailed due to COVID.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> I wonder how they are going to define high risk individuals. This sounds like a tricky thing to define.


It is very limited. People with specific medical illnesses (blood cancers, etc.), people in old age homes, etc. I'm sure it will be widened. But the direction is to do the booster at 8 months, so most of us wouldn't be due until December/January.


----------



## damian13ster

US now recommending boosters to everyone 8 months after second shot.
Same vaccine, no modifications.
Personally I am done. Had 2 - that's enough for me. 
Second one put me in fetal position for 3 days, I am not getting a third one, and then fourth, fifth, etc. 
No wonder Moderna stock is up 100% in recent weeks


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> US now recommending boosters to everyone 8 months after second shot.
> Same vaccine, no modifications.
> Personally I am done. Had 2 - that's enough for me.
> Second one put me in fetal position for 3 days, I am not getting a third one, and then fourth, fifth, etc.
> No wonder Moderna stock is up 100% in recent weeks


I can understand this. I am on the fence about third dose. The second one left me with significant flu symptoms for 3 days or so. Couldn't work for first 2 days.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> I can understand this. I am on the fence about third dose. The second one left me with significant flu symptoms for 3 days or so. Couldn't work for first 2 days.


Yeah, I also won't be lining up for another dose, until I see more data that convinces me it's necessary (at my age).

Also, once the virus mutates enough, the vaccine would have to be modified anyway. The seasonal flu shot is not just the same drug every year.


----------



## james4beach

m3s said:


> Reality is a surprising number of my american counterparts aren't vaccinated. The policy just means they have to have a discussion with a health care provider or religious cult of choice to get a handwritten waiver. I could scribble a waiver for aspiring jedi masters or flying spaghetti monsters.
> 
> The marines are hazing anyone who gets vaccinated. It's mostly the invincible 20-something males. They all have fake CDC proof of vaccination for going out too because it's just a piece of paper with some handwritten scribbles (great use case for blockchain ledgers by the way)


Thanks for the notes on this @m3s 

This is really eye opening


----------



## m3s

Ukrainiandude said:


> The vaccination rates are up slightly from July 6, when Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby said 68.8% of the active-duty force had received at least one shot.


They told us to go to any random private US pharmacy or clinic to get vaccinated and then call/email so they could update some database

How accurate do you think that 68.8% stat is hmm? Health care records are bad enough in Canada but they are a complete clusterf%ck in the USA. I just had to send an email to both the Canadian and US side for medical records. Didn't even need any official documentation

Imagine the waitress and airlines trying to scrutinize all the various "proof of vaccines" from any country and agency. Hah


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Israel, Once the Model for Beating Covid, Faces New Surge of Infections*
One of the most vaccinated societies, Israel now has one of the highest infection rates in the world, raising questions about the vaccine’s efficacy.








Israel, Once the Model for Beating Covid, Faces New Surge of Infections


One of the most vaccinated societies, Israel now has one of the highest infection rates in the world, raising questions about the vaccine’s efficacy.




www.nytimes.com


----------



## james4beach

I hope everyone reads this ^ NYT article. It's very important.

​_The resurgence of the contagion coincided with the swearing in of Mr. Bennett’s government in mid-June. After three Israeli lockdowns, Mr. Bennett came in with a new approach, determining that the country had to live with the virus and keep business operating at full capacity. He called the policy “soft suppression.”_​​_An indoor mask mandate was reinstated on June 25, but compliance was lax. Alarmed medical experts began to urge stricter measures, including curbs on all gatherings._​​


Ukrainiandude said:


> One of the most vaccinated societies, Israel now has one of the highest infection rates in the world, raising questions about the vaccine’s efficacy.


It would be a serious mistake to ignore what's happening in Israel. It is a glimpse into our future.

Please, everyone, continue to be diligent about wearing masks, and avoid high risk activities. Avoid large gatherings and crowds, and limit the number of people you are in close contact with.

Keep a healthy distance away from people. Any time strangers are in the mix, I have a mask on, and I stay away from strangers and the random public.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> I hope everyone reads this ^ NYT article. It's very important.
> 
> ​_The resurgence of the contagion coincided with the swearing in of Mr. Bennett’s government in mid-June. After three Israeli lockdowns, Mr. Bennett came in with a new approach, determining that the country had to live with the virus and keep business operating at full capacity. He called the policy “soft suppression.”_​​_An indoor mask mandate was reinstated on June 25, but compliance was lax. Alarmed medical experts began to urge stricter measures, including curbs on all gatherings._​​
> 
> 
> It would be a serious mistake to ignore what's happening in Israel. It is a glimpse into our future.
> 
> Please, everyone, continue to be diligent about wearing masks, and avoid high risk activities. Avoid large gatherings and crowds, and limit the number of people you are in close contact with.
> 
> Keep a healthy distance away from people. Any time strangers are in the mix, I have a mask on, and I stay away from strangers and the random public.


I understand your concern about people dying, getting sick, etc. Who wouldn't be. All I ask is what can we do about it? Sure we can delay these events by wearing a mask, avoiding friends, shutting down viable businesses and laying off their employees, but what do you actually gain in the long term if these people getting sick will not take the vaccine.

Even if you want to do all that for the very, very few vaccinated people where the vaccine did not protect them. Mostly the immuno compromised and the very old and frail. Do everything you are suggesting until when, I ask? Until the economy is completely destroyed. All businesses that were viable are bankrupt. Until the virus decides to get tired and just magically goes away? Since that won't happen, are we to wait longer, and longer, and then reduce restrictions, and then watch those same people get sick and die. 

Is that really the best plan? We need to start looking further out before we make too many rash decisions based mostly on fear. Some fears have to be faced. Some tragedies have to be endured. It is called life. It is what it is and what it always has been.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> *james4beach ...*
> 
> Keep a healthy distance away from people. Any time strangers are in the mix, I have a mask on, and I stay away from strangers and the random public.


 ... gonna be very hard for those who have to go into the workplace. WAH, staggering the workhours, or whatever the employer's plan is ATM to mitigate the risk of spread is only gonna to last so long (and by that no more than another year). 

For a first, the employer is gonna to think of having to pay for inefficient use of office spaces, and then double/triple duties (aka costs) with all that "extra" precautions taken (eg. sanitization, security, etc.), then the testings (for the few unvaccinateds with rights), etc. Will be interesting times ahead.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Okay, "over a decade"
> 
> Huh? are you talking about Doug Ford, or some other person?


 ... is Rob the same as Doug (although you can say they look like twins, only because they're brothers)? And was Doug mayor of TO? So are you for real on asking that question.



> When you say more than 180degrees, do you mean like all the way around, like 359 degrees, so he's pointed back in pretty much the same direction?


 ... no, 180+ like to 200 degrees so not even close to 359.



> I didn't approve of the Doug Ford Election campaign, but I think he's very good for Ontario, and no he isn't a typical bureaucrat, he's working hard to fix as much as he can, as quick as he can.


 ... I would agree that the the human side of him is working as hard to fix and much as he possibly can. But he's still a politician, and bureacracy is name of the game in that occupation (and by no means, limited to that one.)



> As remarked here, he was working on a massive overhaul of LTC, that was unfortunately derailed due to COVID.


 ... no, Covid blew the lid off the LTC's barrel of massive deficiencies. And it's ongoing ... you simply can't do a massive overhaul on LTC overnight ... especially by using the game of musical chairs, replacing Merrilee with Rod. 

For a start, Merrilee didn't do a spectacular job there either. Let's see how well Rod performs there ... this is his 2nd chance at a provincial job which is pretty amazing considering he "resigned" on the first one with the "I'm here in this cold town working my butts off like those poor healthworkers whilst actually basking in the Carribeans" in the middle of a pandemic.  Either he has a split personality or just being a fraudster there.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

President Biden and first lady Jill Biden to get coronavirus vaccine boosters
Health officials have recommended a third shot eight months after full vaccination to fight off waning immunity and help end the pandemic more swiftly.
As of 15 August, 514 Israelis were hospitalized with severe or critical COVID-19 … Of the 514, 59% were fully vaccinated,” Science found, adding that among those vaccinated the majority (87 percent) were aged 60 or older.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/19/covid-delta-variant-live-updates/


----------



## OptsyEagle

So has anyone seen any data they can link on this so called need for a 3rd booster shot being suggested in the US, after 8 months? All they talk about is waning immunity. It would be nice to see the data, considering that not many American's have even been vaccinated for 8 months.

Seems like a pretty important decision being made without much info within the public domain. It is going to crush the drive to vaccinate the unvaccinated and I cannot help but think that would have been a much higher priority, in our fight. Worse, it won't just crush the drive to vaccinate the unvaccinated in the US, but crush it all over the world, including Canada.

I sure wish the CDC would get out of the world's way so we can fight this pandemic.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> So has anyone seen any data they can link on this so called need for a 3rd booster shot being suggested in the US, after 8 months? All they talk about is waning immunity. It would be nice to see the data, considering that not many American's have even been vaccinated for 8 months.
> 
> Seems like a pretty important decision being made without much info within the public domain. It is going to crush the drive to vaccinate the unvaccinated and I cannot help but think that would have been a much higher priority, in our fight. Worse, it won't just crush the drive to vaccinate the unvaccinated in the US, but crush it all over the world, including Canada.
> 
> I sure wish the CDC would get out of the world's way so we can fight this pandemic.


The protection (no immunity) builds then wanes over time. It seems for those with weakened immune systems it never gets as high, and drops quickly.
Numbers I've heard are 5%/month for mRNA.

As far as the anti-vaxxers.. F**** them.
Get the vaccine to the millions who want it first.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> Please, everyone, continue to be diligent about wearing masks, and avoid high risk activities. Avoid large gatherings and crowds, and limit the number of people you are in close contact with.


I did an extended family barbeque last weekend. It was outdoors, no masks, lots of hugging, etc. Almost everyone was vaccinated AFAIK. We were seeing a cousin who has been living abroad and hasn't been home since pre-pandemic. I felt weird about agreeing to go but did. Had a great time. But I wonder how wise it really was.


----------



## andrewf

OptsyEagle said:


> So has anyone seen any data they can link on this so called need for a 3rd booster shot being suggested in the US, after 8 months? All they talk about is waning immunity. It would be nice to see the data, considering that not many American's have even been vaccinated for 8 months.
> 
> Seems like a pretty important decision being made without much info within the public domain. It is going to crush the drive to vaccinate the unvaccinated and I cannot help but think that would have been a much higher priority, in our fight. Worse, it won't just crush the drive to vaccinate the unvaccinated in the US, but crush it all over the world, including Canada.
> 
> I sure wish the CDC would get out of the world's way so we can fight this pandemic.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> I did an extended family barbeque last weekend. It was outdoors, no masks, lots of hugging, etc. Almost everyone was vaccinated AFAIK. We were seeing a cousin who has been living abroad and hasn't been home since pre-pandemic. I felt weird about agreeing to go but did. Had a great time. But I wonder how wise it really was.


family BBQ with no kids?

AFAIAA it isn't legal to vaccinate kids anywhere in the world.


----------



## OptsyEagle

andrewf said:


>


Thanks for that.

OK. In summary

1) Vaccine effectiveness between May 3 - July 25 drops from 92% to 80%
2) Non-delta effectiveness vs delta effectiveness goes from: Pfizer 76% to 42%, Moderna 86% to 76%
3) Vaccine's effectiveness to prevent hospitalizations and death remains at 92% to 95% throughout this time frame.
4) No information presented about how a booster shot may or may not help.

Here is what I see.

We already know that the delta is more severe. It's increased infection rate will effectively increase the dose of infections a person obtains, for the same amount of time exposure, compared to a previous variant. Hence why it becomes a little more difficult for the body to fight off, no matter how strong ones immune system is now or when vaccine boosted. That is the reason for the reduced effectiveness from the change in variant.

What they are measuring above, with respect to waning immunity is really nothing more then measuring the quickly changing variant of concern over that time period.

The underlying reason for this 3rd dose mandate, in my opinion, is because they have a huge stockpile of vaccines and would prefer to waste them on Americans, for a small benefit, rather then give them to other more needy people in the world who have none. They may think that is a good American idea but as I said above, it will severely work against their efforts to vaccinate the very large number of Americans who continue to refuse. This will be the much larger problem for them. Again, I wish the CDC would get out of the world's way so we can effectively fight this virus. It does not look like I am going to get my wish.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> family BBQ with no kids?
> 
> AFAIAA it isn't legal to vaccinate kids anywhere in the world.


You got me, those eligible were mostly vaccinated. There were a few children under 12 there.


----------



## andrewf

Agreed that everyone should be focused on vaccinating developing countries. Limiting spread is how we are going to tamp down new variants.


----------



## OptsyEagle

andrewf said:


> You got me, those eligible were mostly vaccinated. There were a few children under 12 there.


Not going to the barbecue would not have made much of a difference, in my opinion. If it helps and I know a unconfirmed health tip from OptsyE is not worth much to many around here, but in my opinion, there is no better booster shot out there then very a low dose exposure, outside infection of the Delta variant, preferably after being fully vaccinated. That could not help but provide some rock solid immunity IMO. You should be hugging anyone that opens their arms, and I want to emphasize outside. Remember, soon we will all be going inside.

Perhaps every barbecue should offer this. lol


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Agreed that everyone should be focused on vaccinating developing countries. Limiting spread is how we are going to tamp down new variants.


Nobody is working to limit spread, except NZ, which just locked down.
The sad reality is the vaccine we have today won't stop COVID19.

Remember back in early 2020, I said they were doubtful they'd find an effective vaccine. Guess what, we dont' have a vaccine that effectively stops COVID19, it saves lives, but it doesn't slow down spread enough.


----------



## sags

We need more than another shot of an ineffective vaccine.

We need treatments that will kill the virus. because they now predict everyone will get it sooner or later......vaxxed or not.

Interesting that when top level politicians get the virus...like the governor of Texas, they are immediately put on treatments unavailable to the public.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

The Oxford-AstraZeneca jab, though initially less effective, offers the same high protection as the Pfizer-BioNTech after four to five months, the largest study of its kind suggests.
But neither is as effective as it is against the Alpha variant, responsible for most UK infections last winter.
There is insufficient data for Moderna.
But researchers believe it "almost certainly at least as good as the others".
They analysed two and a half million tests results from 743,526 participants in the UK's Covid-19 household-infection survey - led by Oxford University and the Office for National Statistics.
The Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine had 93% effectiveness against symptomatic infection two weeks after the second dose, compared with Oxford-AstraZeneca's 71%.
Over time, however, the Pfizer-BioNTech's effectiveness dropped while the Oxford-AstraZeneca's remained largely the same.
Other key points from the research include:


People who have had Covid-19 gain even more antibodies when fully vaccinated
The time between first and second doses does not affect the vaccines' effectiveness
Younger people gain more protection from vaccination than older 
The study also echoes previous research showing fully vaccinated people who do become infected with the Delta variant have similar levels of the virus to those unvaccinated.
With the Alpha variant, in contrast, their viral loads were much lower.


----------



## sags

They measure the virus load with nose swabs, so it is reasonable to conclude the amount of virus in the nose would be the same among vaccinated or non vaccinated.

The important part is what happens from there. How well did the vaccines teach our cells to recognize and respond to the virus and can our bodies produce sufficient antibody cells, without making us deathly sick from the resulting inflammation and fever.

From what I have read it is the speed of viral cell replication that makes the Delta variant more infectious and deadly. It overwhelms our defense systems.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> I did an extended family barbeque last weekend. It was outdoors, no masks, lots of hugging, etc. Almost everyone was vaccinated AFAIK. We were seeing a cousin who has been living abroad and hasn't been home since pre-pandemic. I felt weird about agreeing to go but did. Had a great time. But I wonder how wise it really was.


Outdoors is great, should be low risk.

I have similar concerns about some of my choices. I met up with a few friends over the last week, and we had wings indoors at a bar. This is because my friends can't handle the outdoor heat so we didn't really have an option, but I think it was kind of dangerous.


----------



## damian13ster

Ukrainiandude said:


> The Oxford-AstraZeneca jab, though initially less effective, offers the same high protection as the Pfizer-BioNTech after four to five months, the largest study of its kind suggests.
> But neither is as effective as it is against the Alpha variant, responsible for most UK infections last winter.
> There is insufficient data for Moderna.
> But researchers believe it "almost certainly at least as good as the others".
> They analysed two and a half million tests results from 743,526 participants in the UK's Covid-19 household-infection survey - led by Oxford University and the Office for National Statistics.
> The Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine had 93% effectiveness against symptomatic infection two weeks after the second dose, compared with Oxford-AstraZeneca's 71%.
> Over time, however, the Pfizer-BioNTech's effectiveness dropped while the Oxford-AstraZeneca's remained largely the same.
> Other key points from the research include:
> 
> 
> People who have had Covid-19 gain even more antibodies when fully vaccinated
> The time between first and second doses does not affect the vaccines' effectiveness
> Younger people gain more protection from vaccination than older
> The study also echoes previous research showing fully vaccinated people who do become infected with the Delta variant have similar levels of the virus to those unvaccinated.
> With the Alpha variant, in contrast, their viral loads were much lower.


Antibodies are only one metric, hardly most important one, in determining level of protection.
The question is whether your body will produce antibodies when in contact with the virus, not whether your body has antibodies without the virus present.
The latter naturally wanes off and is a simple marketing tactic for the vaccine manufacturers.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Nobody is working to limit spread, except NZ, which just locked down.
> The sad reality is the vaccine we have today won't stop COVID19.
> 
> Remember back in early 2020, I said they were doubtful they'd find an effective vaccine. Guess what, we dont' have a vaccine that effectively stops COVID19, it saves lives, but it doesn't slow down spread enough.


It's potentially going to lead to a very bad outcome where we get a true vaccine escapee that causes severe illness. We're creating a lot of selective pressure on the virus with high levels of infection in vaccinated individuals.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> We're creating a lot of selective pressure on the virus with high levels of infection in vaccinated individuals.


Yup, but the entire world was told that "vaccination will solve this without lockdowns". 
I dont' think people will accept restrictions.
We're not New Zealand.


----------



## OptsyEagle

The other consideration one should give, with respect to these studies pertaining to waning immunity is that all the data they are using seems mostly to be coming out of the US and Israel. Keep in mind that they both used the suggested dose interval of 3 to 4 weeks between doses. Although it was pure luck on our part and the UK etc., it has turned out that immunity is better when the dose interval is extended. I can't say if it relates to longevity of immunity but better is usually better and later is always later. The last point can't help but give us more time.

In any event I have not seen anything that tells me the average population desperately need a 3rd dose. Immuno deficient people need it obviously and if they want to give it to older ages, so be it. My concern is more from a reluctance to vaccinate at all, the requirement for 3 doses is going to give an unvaccinated person if they are told it is needed. So far I don't see it. It sounds like countries reacting to non-issues or wanting to use up a stock pile of already paid for, soon to expire vaccine.


----------



## OptsyEagle

andrewf said:


> It's potentially going to lead to a very bad outcome where we get a true vaccine escapee that causes severe illness. We're creating a lot of selective pressure on the virus with high levels of infection in vaccinated individuals.


That is something that has not happened yet and probably never will but even if it is a subject of concern I would imagine most scientists would say that inoculating our populations as quickly as possible is the best way to reduce its probability. If the population will not take vaccine, natural inoculation (recovered infection) is the next quickest way. By delaying these inevitable infections we are simply giving this virus more time to figure out a way to become a bigger problem.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> In any event I have not seen anything that tells me the average population desperately need a 3rd dose.











New COVID-19 Cases and Hospitalizations Among...


COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness against hospitalizations was stable, but it declined against new infections among adults in New York during May–July 2021.




www.cdc.gov





"The overall age-adjusted vaccine effectiveness against infection for all New York adults declined from 91.7% to 79.8%."

The research is still new, but it's strongly suggested that the vaccine
1. Doesn't provide "immunity"
2. Declines in effectiveness over time
3. Doesn't stop spread, and may not be sufficient to stop COVID19.

It's almost certain we'll need boosters, ideally a better vaccine, or maybe just variant specific vaccines.


----------



## andrewf

Reducing infection should effectively reduce spread by reducing effective R. Nothing is ever perfectly effective.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> New COVID-19 Cases and Hospitalizations Among...
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness against hospitalizations was stable, but it declined against new infections among adults in New York during May–July 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The overall age-adjusted vaccine effectiveness against infection for all New York adults declined from 91.7% to 79.8%."
> 
> The research is still new, but it's strongly suggested that the vaccine
> 1. Doesn't provide "immunity"
> 2. Declines in effectiveness over time
> 3. Doesn't stop spread, and may not be sufficient to stop COVID19.
> 
> It's almost certain we'll need boosters, ideally a better vaccine, or maybe just variant specific vaccines.





> The research is still new, but it's strongly suggested that the vaccine
> 1. Doesn't provide "immunity"
> 2. Declines in effectiveness over time
> 3. Doesn't stop spread, and may not be sufficient to stop COVID19


.
Nothing provides immunity. Declines in effectiveness does not mean it is no longer effective. Vaccines do not stop the spread but they reduce it significantly and nothing is going to completely stop covid-19. So we need to figure out how to live with it. This is how:

You get vaccinated immediately. WHEN you come in contact with this virus, and we all will, that should keep you alive after first contact. After first contact, your immune system will not only get its upgraded boost but will be tuned to whatever virus is going around at the time. When that has happened, to a very large portion of our population, Covid will no longer be a risky virus.

That is how you end this pandemic. It is how most pandemics end. This is not new, just seems to be new to most people currently on this planet.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> .
> Nothing provides immunity. Declines in effectiveness does not mean it is no longer effective. Vaccines do not stop the spread but they reduce it significantly and nothing is going to completely stop covid-19. So we need to figure out how to live with it.


Vaccines don't reduce it enough.




> This is how:
> 
> You get vaccinated immediately. WHEN you come in contact with this virus, and we all will, that should keep you alive after first contact. After first contact, your immune system will not only get its upgraded boost but will be tuned to whatever virus is going around at the time. When that has happened, to a very large portion of our population, Covid will no longer be a risky virus.
> 
> That is how you end this pandemic. It is how most pandemics end. This is not new, just seems to be new to most people currently on this planet.


That is based on the assumption that getting COVID19 once means you'll never get it, or a variant again.

the problem is Coronaviruses mutate fast, which is why the intial thoughts were a vaccine might not be possible.
It is looking like these vaccines aren't good enough to wipe out COVID19, which means we might have it forever.

It's important to note we (Ontario for example) have more new cases a day than we did last august. The vaccine isn't going to stop this.


----------



## damian13ster

The scenario under which vaccines are completely ineffective when it comes to spread and nearly 100% effective when it comes to preventing hospitalizations is ideal imho.
And looks like we are getting there


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Deaths in Japan fell last year (2020) for the first time in more than a decade despite the country having the world's oldest population.









Deaths in Japan fall for the first time in more than a decade


The health ministry reported that the number of deaths across the nation dropped by more than 9,300 in 2020 to around 1.4 million.




www.japantimes.co.jp


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> Vaccines don't reduce it enough.
> 
> 
> 
> That is based on the assumption that getting COVID19 once means you'll never get it, or a variant again.
> 
> the problem is Coronaviruses mutate fast, which is why the intial thoughts were a vaccine might not be possible.
> It is looking like these vaccines aren't good enough to wipe out COVID19, which means we might have it forever.
> 
> It's important to note we (Ontario for example) have more new cases a day than we did last august. The vaccine isn't going to stop this.


It doesn't mean any of that. It means that you will be stronger after every mild infection you obtain so that the next infection is milder then that and the next infection is milder then that, etc., etc. until no infection could possibly hurt you.

As for the vaccine not stopping the spread enough, as you put it above, that is actually a good thing. We need to transmit this virus as safely as we can to our unvaccinated. The safest way to do it is via a vaccinated person. The vast majority of vaccinated carriers will be carrying a much lower dose of virus to shed. The study the CDC put out against this was complete nonsense. I explained their error in post #3789 but I will summarize here. Keep in mind they tested for viral loads using cycle threshold values from PCR tests:



> A PCR tests is done on infected people, many days after they each receive their various sized infections. It says nothing about the degree of infection (amount of exposure) that happens when these people actually got infected. So think of it this way. If we had two Olympic runners in a race. One runner was placed on the 200 yard line to start and the other runner was placed on the 50 yard line. If we had no other information on this race but a photo finish of the two runners crossing the finish line at approximately the same time (that is what a PCR test is) we would falsely conclude that both runners were running at approximately the same speed, even when that was certainly not the case. A PCR test tells us nothing about how much virus each person was exposed to that their bodies are fighting. They just found two people, one vaccinated and one unvaccinated, many days later after their infections and said, "hey look, they both have the same viral load. That must mean that they must be the same when it comes to shedding virus".
> 
> Although that may be true for those two people, it is far from conclusive on the entire populations of vaccinated compared to unvaccinated. When you consider how few vaccinated people get admitted to the hospital, ICU or die, the only way that can happen is if vaccinated people fight off the virus FASTER then unvaccinated people do. The only way you will find two people, one unvaccinated and the other vaccinated, with the same viral load, is if the vaccinated person started the race with a much higher, many magnitudes higher of infectious exposure, then the unvaccinated person did. In other words they did not start this race at the same place, they only finished there.


----------



## Eder

In the long run we will all have some natural immunity....Covid already is hardly the killer it was feared to be.


----------



## sags

People know that severe outcomes from covid is greatly diminished with vaccination.

They just don't want to be one of that small number of people who do have a severe outcome.

It wouldn't make me feel any better if I was on a ventilator in the ICU and the doctor said.........the good news is that thousands of others didn't end up here.


----------



## sags

Eder said:


> In the long run we will all have some natural immunity....Covid already is hardly the killer it was feared to be.


Actually, the experts say that in the long run.......we will all get covid. Then you pays your money and takes your chances.


----------



## OptsyEagle

For context we need to give some thought to history.

Has anyone ever wondered how the Europeans actually conquered North and South America. I mean a few Europeans show up in a few wooden boats and basically overcome millions and millions of aboriginals. The Aztecs, for example, had over 6 million members of their empire when Cortez shows up with maybe between 600 to 900 conquistadors.

Hollywood would tell us that it was our weapons. The Indians were frightened of our cannons and muskets. The muskets of the 1500s would take over 3 minutes to reload. An Indian could fire off 7 or 8 arrows in that same time. Our steel was better and we had armor and shields, but 900 against 6 million. Come on.

The main reason these 1st Nations were subdued was from our viruses. By the 1500s and into the 1800s Europeans were getting more and more immune to some of the most deadly viruses in the world. We could carry those across oceans and they were almost harmless to us, but when we met those natives, those same viruses were deadly because to them they were new. Spread like wildfire. Some say between 60% to 90% of the various tribes, in all of both North and South America, were wiped out by this sickness.

My point is more about the Europeans who carried these viruses across the ocean. Before they left port they had had multiple interactions with these viruses, where they no longer became the threat to them, that they once were. These were much deadlier viruses then Covid-19. Small pox was the worst. So you see, we need to get used to these viruses. We need to get exposed to them. That only happens safely when you get vaccinated, take off your masks and start living your life with others, preferably outside.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> *Vaccines don't reduce it enough.*
> 
> 
> 
> That is based on the assumption that getting COVID19 once means you'll never get it, or a variant again.
> 
> the problem is Coronaviruses mutate fast, which is why the intial thoughts were a vaccine might not be possible.
> It is looking like these vaccines aren't good enough to wipe out COVID19, which means we might have it forever.
> 
> It's important to note we (Ontario for example) have more new cases a day than we did last august. The vaccine isn't going to stop this.


I agree that vaccines don't reduce it enough or even don't really reduce it.
I hoped that vaccines will do much much better.
I also not sure if we can trust official numbers, for example, from todays announcment _"The health ministry also reported the deaths of 17 more people with the illness, but said that 15 "occurred more than two months ago" and were included today as part of a data cleanup by Public Health Ontario._ "
And this is typical for Ontario, we see such "clean up" 2-3 times per week. In reality , there may be much more deaths than reported and officials are interested to show that vaccines work.


----------



## gibor365

Israel started massive vaccination about 3 months before Canada and at the beginning of 4th wave it looked that vaccines helping....they have much less serious cases and much less deaths.... But after months or so, this gap unvax vs vax becomes smaller and amaller. And this is considering that Israel gives 3rd shot to many people for several weeks!
Looking at graph , we can see that acceleration in new cases exactly the same this time and during 3rd wave.
Now Israel has 6,581 new cases per day, the absolute maximum was in mid-January at 8,242.
Absolute max of deaths was 65 per day in mid-January, but several days ago there were 46 deaths! 7 days average is still lower (20), but looks like Israel is going to head there 9today in half day already 25 deaths were recorded). Canada will repeat excatly the same.
In couple of months , most likely, Israeli numbers will go down.... it would be attributed to vaccines... but this is will bw "fake news", Virus lives by his own rules regardless of vaccines and restrictions


----------



## Spudd

gibor365 said:


> I agree that vaccines don't reduce it enough or even don't really reduce it.
> I hoped that vaccines will do much much better.
> I also not sure if we can trust official numbers, for example, from todays announcment _"The health ministry also reported the deaths of 17 more people with the illness, but said that 15 "occurred more than two months ago" and were included today as part of a data cleanup by Public Health Ontario._ "
> And this is typical for Ontario, we see such "clean up" 2-3 times per week. In reality , there may be much more deaths than reported and officials are interested to show that vaccines work.


They do reduce it. Based on Ontario stats, here are the latest numbers:

7-day Average:

DateCasesHosp.ICU1 Dose2 Dose1 Dose2 Dose1 Dose2 DoseAs of Aug 19-50.3%-86.4%-57.7%-95.9%-67.5%-94.3%


Running Average (since August 10):

DateCasesHosp.ICU1 Dose2 Dose1 Dose2 Dose1 Dose2 DoseAs of Aug 19-51.9%-86.5%-56.5%-96.7%-57.0%-91.4%

Here is the raw data from the government that was used to create this data:





COVID-19 Vaccine Data in Ontario - Cases and rates by vaccination status - Ontario Data Catalogue


Please note that Cases by Vaccination Status data will no longer be published as of June 30, 2022. This data set relied on COVID-19 case counts based on molecular testing (e.g. PCR). As of December...




data.ontario.ca









COVID-19 Vaccine Data in Ontario - COVID-19 Vaccine data - Ontario Data Catalogue


As of June 16, all COVID-19 datasets will be updated weekly on Thursdays by 2pm. Please note that Cases by Vaccination Status data will no longer be published as of June 30, 2022. Please note that...




data.ontario.ca





It is saying that if you're fully vaccinated, you're 86% less likely to catch covid than an unvaccinated person, 97% less likely to be hospitalized, and 91% less likely to be admitted to ICU.

If you look at the raw data, for yesterday for example, there were 382/46/75 un/partial/fully vaccinated cases. When you consider that around 74% of eligible people are fully vaccinated, the fact that there are so many more cases in the unvaccinated shows that the vaccine works. In fact, the vaccine means you're 86% less likely to catch the disease.

People are focusing too much on the fact that there are some breakthrough cases and ignoring the fact that they are very few compared to cases in the unvaccinated.


----------



## sags

I think people are focusing on the fact that cases among the vaccinated is increasing and the symptoms are more severe than first thought.

It also appears that much of the disagreement among CMF members has disappeared and most are settling into the same conclusions...........more or less.

It is logical that concern is created when the ground beneath us keeps shifting. At this point.......few trust the politicians anymore.


----------



## gibor365

Spudd said:


> They do reduce it. Based on Ontario stats, here are the latest numbers:
> 
> 7-day Average:
> 
> DateCasesHosp.ICU1 Dose2 Dose1 Dose2 Dose1 Dose2 DoseAs of Aug 19-50.3%-86.4%-57.7%-95.9%-67.5%-94.3%
> 
> 
> Running Average (since August 10):
> 
> DateCasesHosp.ICU1 Dose2 Dose1 Dose2 Dose1 Dose2 DoseAs of Aug 19-51.9%-86.5%-56.5%-96.7%-57.0%-91.4%
> 
> Here is the raw data from the government that was used to create this data:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccine Data in Ontario - Cases and rates by vaccination status - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> Please note that Cases by Vaccination Status data will no longer be published as of June 30, 2022. This data set relied on COVID-19 case counts based on molecular testing (e.g. PCR). As of December...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> data.ontario.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccine Data in Ontario - COVID-19 Vaccine data - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> As of June 16, all COVID-19 datasets will be updated weekly on Thursdays by 2pm. Please note that Cases by Vaccination Status data will no longer be published as of June 30, 2022. Please note that...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> data.ontario.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is saying that if you're fully vaccinated, you're 86% less likely to catch covid than an unvaccinated person, 97% less likely to be hospitalized, and 91% less likely to be admitted to ICU.
> 
> If you look at the raw data, for yesterday for example, there were 382/46/75 un/partial/fully vaccinated cases. When you consider that around 74% of eligible people are fully vaccinated, the fact that there are so many more cases in the unvaccinated shows that the vaccine works. In fact, the vaccine means you're 86% less likely to catch the disease.
> 
> People are focusing too much on the fact that there are some breakthrough cases and ignoring the fact that they are very few compared to cases in the unvaccinated.


I explained my point in “So vaccines” thread! In short, Israel who started vaccination 3 months or so before Canada and administering now booster shot, had at the beginning of last wave similar numbers Canada has now. Currently, the gap between vaccinated and unvaccinated becomes smaller and smaller. Expect same here


----------



## gibor365

Here we go

Fourteen Israelis have been diagnosed with COVID-19 despite having been inoculated with a third COVID-19 vaccine dose, according to Health Ministry data reported by Channel 12 news on Sunday.

According to the network, two of those infected after receiving the booster shot have been hospitalized


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> I think people are focusing on the fact that cases among the vaccinated is increasing and the symptoms are more severe than first thought.
> 
> It also appears that much of the disagreement among CMF members has disappeared and most are settling into the same conclusions...........more or less.
> 
> It is logical that concern is created when the ground beneath us keeps shifting. At this point.......few trust the politicians anymore.


Cases from vaccinated are expected to increase as the number of vaccinated people increase. Sorry if I don't find that surprising or scary.

None of it is important. What is important is that the vaccine will keep you from dying as long as you don't have any pre-existing health issues.

People, the vaccines are working great. If you are relatively healthy your best action is to get vaccinated and then go on with your life. If others want to tremble behind their masks and avoid people in some useless attempt to avoid a virus they cannot avoid forever then let them. There will be psychiatrists for those. From what I can see on this board, covid phobia should be a really big money maker for them.


----------



## gibor365

OptsyEagle said:


> Cases from vaccinated are expected to increase as the number of vaccinated people increase. Sorry if I don't find that surprising or scary.
> 
> None of it is important. *What is important is that the vaccine will keep you from dying as long as you don't have any pre-existing health issues.*
> 
> People, the vaccines are working great. * If you are relatively healthy your best action is to get vaccinated and then go on with your life.* If others want to tremble behind their masks and avoid people in some useless attempt to avoid a virus they cannot avoid forever then let them. There will be psychiatrists for those. From what I can see on this board, covid phobia should be a really big money maker for them.


If you don't have *any pre-existing health issues, *your immune system will *keep you from dying *regardless of your vaccination status ... I personally know 2 dozens of people who got Covid and no one even ended in ICU (even though many had different health conditions).
For many, vaccination is just psycological factor!

Regardless of your vaccine status , you cannot "* go on with your life" ... you are just not allowed!*


----------



## sags

Did they have the Delta variant ?

There are a lot of people who have pre-existing health conditions when you add them all up.

Age, obesity, diabetes, heart condition, organ problems, COPD, blood diseases, cancer, high blood pressure, asthma.....pretty much everyone over age 50.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Did they have the Delta variant ?
> 
> There are a lot of people who have pre-existing health conditions when you add them all up.
> 
> Age, obesity, diabetes, heart condition, organ problems, COPD, blood diseases, cancer, high blood pressure, asthma.....pretty much everyone over age 50.


No, not Delta....actually I don;t know 1 person who got Delta  ... From my own and my family/friends experience, all those pre-existing health conditions you listed start at about 40.... I started with high cholesterol and then some kind of domino effect


----------



## OptsyEagle

The pre-existing conditions of concern, for the fully vaccinated are mostly immune deficiencies and being very old and frail. The immune deficienies would mostly be cancer patients on chemo and transplant recipients taking anti-rejection medication. There are a few other immuno compromised conditions as well. I think hypertension is another condition of concern but most people with that probably have it well controlled with drugs. This is for all variants and remember just about all of those people would be in the fully vaccinated group by now, which also means none are in the unvaccinated group, so that kind of skews down the efficacy numbers you are looking at these days as it relates to the vaccines.

The delta variant is more severe and infectious then the previous variants but it does not graduate Covid-19 into anything overly dangerous to the fully vaccinated. If you don't have the above conditions, it is very unlikely you will get severely sick from covid and the probability that you would die from it can almost be completely dismissed.

Get vaccinated, enjoy your life.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

OptsyEagle said:


> If you don't have the above conditions, it is very unlikely you will get severely sick from covid and the probability that you would die from it can almost be completely dismissed.


It applies to both vaccinated and unvaccinated, without the above conditions.


----------



## andrewf

For varying definitions of very unlikely. No one would fly if you had a 1 in 1000 chance of any given flight crashing. People would not consider that risk 'very unlikely'.


----------



## OptsyEagle

andrewf said:


> For varying definitions of very unlikely. No one would fly if you had a 1 in 1000 chance of any given flight crashing. People would not consider that risk 'very unlikely'.


Not sure what your point is here. Dying of covid for the fully vaccinated without the co-morbidity conditions above is a lot lower then 1 in a 1000, but I will say this. If given a choice between staying away from others for the rest of my life and wearing a mask wherever I go until my last day ...or...getting on a plane with a 1 in a 1000 chance of crashing, I would be boarding the jet tonight.


----------



## gibor365

OptsyEagle said:


> Not sure what your point is here. Dying of covid for the fully vaccinated without the co-morbidity conditions above is a lot lower then 1 in a 1000, but I will say this. If given a choice between staying away from others for the rest of my life and wearing a mask wherever I go until my last day ...or...getting on a plane with a 1 in a 1000 chance of crashing, I would be boarding the jet tonight.


True! We want to live life, not just survive!


----------



## sags

Well......maybe they will be forced to open everything up and let the virus run it's course.

We would likely have to shut down hospitals to covid patients so we could treat everyone else though.

Just have a designated warehouse where covid patients go to await their fate.

After all, the doctors and nurses may not want to expose themselves to that kind of scenario.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> Just have a designated warehouse where covid patients go to await their fate.


Exactly.
Look at Afghanistan, no vaccines, no masks, no social distancing, no hospitals and there no corpses lying on the streets.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Well......maybe they will be forced to open everything up and let the virus run it's course.


 ... yep, business as usual, only the customers are missing. Watch the deserted streets.



> We would likely have to shut down hospitals to covid patients so we could treat everyone else though.
> 
> Just have a designated warehouse where covid patients go to await their fate.


 ... would be ideal for "unvaccinated" Covid patients (those who likes to make their own bed can lie on them) but in reality that ain't gonna happen.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Exactly.
> Look at Afghanistan, no vaccines, no masks, no social distancing, no hospitals and there no corpses lying on the streets.


 ... and soon no Canadians nor Americans. Do you want to visit there?


----------



## Beaver101

Trending examples ...

'The right thing to do:' SickKids will introduce mandatory vaccination policy for employees ... another hospital (this is for kids).

Ontario says all 64,000 members of the public service must be vaccinated or submit to regular COVID-19 testing ...Ontario government. [The other day's announcement was for the Feds.]

City of Toronto and TTC workers must be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 by Oct. 30 ... City of Toronto ... I'm certain other small cities/town will follow suit.

RBC to require COVID-19 vaccination for all in-person Canada and U.S. staff ... a big (the country's biggest?) bank.

Sun Life to require COVID-19 vaccination for employees volunteering to return to office ... major insurance company/employer. I'm certain other companies/businesses (both small, big and medium) will follow suit.

MPP Rick Nicholls booted from Ontario PC caucus after refusing to get COVID-19 vaccine ... a sucker.


----------



## sags

Shades of India........no hospital beds, no oxygen, no ventilators, no nurses, mass burials and cremations.

The best scenario would be that everyone would see the carnage and stay home. Businesses would close and nobody would have income. Food would be scarce. There would be panic buying and hoarding. It would be a nightmare scenario but better than everyone getting sick and going to the hospital.

Perhaps the most important number of all in the statistics is..........what is the % of the population the healthcare system can withstand before collapsing ?

I haven't seen that number posted anywhere.


----------



## sags

If the story coming out of Israel is factual and people with 2 vaccinations and a booster shot are getting hospitalized from COVID.......something is wrong because that scenario isn't supposed to be happening.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> If the story coming out of Israel is factual and people with 2 vaccinations and a booster shot are getting hospitalized from COVID.......something is wrong because that scenario isn't supposed to be happening.


 Coronaviruses are notorious for their mutations to avoid vaccines.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> Trending examples ...


You know sometimes popular opinion is wrong right?


----------



## Beaver101

^Correct, depending on what the opinion is on. And in this case, it's not wrong, IMO of course.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ^Correct, depending on what the opinion is on. And in this case, it's not wrong, IMO of course.


You know, public opinion has been used to infringe on human rights for all of our history.
It continues today.

It's really sad how people are so quick to turn on human rights when the mood strikes them.

Just a question with potential fatal, government mandated medical procedures.
Are you okay with the forced abortions in China?
Like it's just a medical procedure, most of the mothers survive, and it really is intended to be for the public good.


----------



## damian13ster

Germany outlines that it does not accept a mix of two different mRNA vaccines as fully vaccinated, meaning travellers must present a negative COVID-19 test to enter, while some cruises do not accept a mix of an AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine with an mRNA vaccine as fully vaccinated, following the guidance of the U.S. Centre for Disease Control (CDC). 



Mr. Matt did you hear anyone complain against forced sterilization of aboriginal women? Same people are now cheering for another forced medical procedure


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> You know, public opinion has been used to infringe on human rights for all of our history.
> It continues today.


 ... I would agree with your statement without the word 'public'. There'll always be infringement of human rights in this country, until the end of mankind. Now add in your word 'public', at least this version is out there for "all=everyone" to see, disagree, dispute and fight.



> It's really sad how people are so quick to turn on human rights when the mood strikes them.


 ... would that not include you?



> Just a question with potential fatal, government mandated medical procedures.
> Are you okay with the forced abortions in China?


 ... of course not but even then, what are 'you' as a Canadian citizen is able to do about it other than exercising your right to free speech on this forum "I'm all for human rights, specifically anti-abortion, anti-vaccine, but not BLM or whatever that suits your agenda". 



> Like it's just a medical procedure, most of the mothers survive, and it really is intended to be for the public good.


 ... so was Canada's residential school genocide. Why am I surprised you're not ranting about those suppression of 'human rights' there that occurred in our own backyard?


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> ...
> 
> Mr. Matt did you hear anyone complain against forced sterilization of aboriginal women? Same people are now cheering for another forced medical procedure


 .. if you're a "true" proponent of "human rights" as "all" human rights, take this issue up to the Supreme Court of Canada. Otherwise, your trolling goes only so far as your keyboard.


----------



## Beaver101

Survey: nearly 75 per cent of Ontario doctors experienced burnout during pandemic

Last thing we need is a repeat of this ... with the upcoming 4th wave.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> It's really sad how people are so quick to turn on human rights when the mood strikes them.
> 
> 
> 
> ... would that not include you?
Click to expand...

Not really, I think I'm pretty clear on my defense of human rights.
Much more than most.



> ... of course not but even then, what are 'you' as a Canadian citizen is able to do about it other than exercising your right to free speech on this forum "I'm all for human rights, specifically anti-abortion, anti-vaccine, but not BLM or whatever that suits your agenda".


I'm all for human rights, I think abortion is a bad solution. Partial birth and post birth "abortion" is clearly murder, but I'm okay with with mothers killing them early if they don't want them. Honestly if you're willing to kill your child, I don't think you'd be a good parent anyway.
I'm pro vaxx (more so than the government) and against racism.
So which part of that shows I'm weak on human rights?



> ... so was Canada's residential school genocide. Why am I surprised you're not ranting about those suppression of 'human rights' there that occurred in our own backyard?


Yes it was, and it has been acknowledged and apologized for. Not saying that was enough, but the recent "outpouring of support" is just because it's cool and trendy. Everybody knew for years, it was clearly acknowledged, we were taught this in school, but people didn't care.




__





Loading…






www.cbc.ca




I previously linked to the part of the Ontario curriculum that covers this as well.

I'm constantly ranting about suppression of human rights in Canada.
For example, institutional racism being promoted by the Federal government, suppression of free speech by the government. These are a big deal.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> .. if you're a "true" proponent of "human rights" as "all" human rights, take this issue up to the Supreme Court of Canada. Otherwise, your trolling goes only so far as your keyboard.


Not being a native woman who was forcibly sterilized by the government, I lack standing to take this to court.
I do think that the people pushing a policy like this should face the harshest possible penalty.


----------



## sags

Nobody will be forced to vaccinate. Nobody is going to be held down and jabbed. It will be strictly voluntary.

But......without vaccination they may not have complete freedom to do whatever they want. That isn't particularly unusual.

A person may want to drive a car, but it does require proof of a driver license.

A person may want to own a gun and go hunting, but it is still required they hold the proper certification.

A person may want to perform brain surgery, but training, education and certification are required.

A vaccination certificate isn't all that different from many requirements that already exist in our daily lives.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Nobody will be forced to vaccinate. Nobody is going to be held down and jabbed. It will be strictly voluntary.
> 
> But......without vaccination they may not have complete freedom to do what they want.
> 
> It is the same as driving a car. A person may want to drive a car, but it requires proof of a driver license.


Driving a car is a priveledge.
Being able to move freely in public is a right.
Having access to government services is a right.
Not being subjected to medial procedures as a condition of employment is a right.


----------



## sags

The un-vaccinated can still move freely in public spaces, but they don't have the right to move freely in private places.

Government services can be provided online or in safe settings (behind plexiglass etc)

Some employment already requires tests. People routinely have to provide the results of drug testing.

Vision and physical tests are required for driving a transport truck, heavy construction equipment, trains, or commercial buses.

Olympic and professional athletes are routinely tested for drugs.

It isn't as simple or clear cut as you would present it to be.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The un-vaccinated can still move freely in public spaces, but they don't have the right to move freely in private places.
> 
> Government services can be provided online or in safe settings (behind plexiglass etc)
> 
> Some employment already requires tests. People routinely have to provide the results of drug testing.
> 
> Vision and physical tests are required for driving a transport truck, heavy construction equipment, trains, or commercial buses.
> 
> Olympic and professional athletes are routinely tested for drugs.
> 
> It isn't as simple or clear cut as you would present it to be.


You're comparing taking prohibited drugs as equivalent to refusing an unwanted medical procedure?

I believe there is no risk of death for a vision test.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Driving a car is a priveledge.
> Being able to move freely in public is a right.
> Having access to government services is a right.
> *Not being subjected to medial procedures as a condition of employment is a right.*


 ... this is really contradictory for someone who is pro-employer/business. 

So as a manager, what happens if you have a subordinate reporting to you declared your bolded statement? I'm interested in knowing what your / youer employer's accommodation will be.


----------



## MyCatMittens

People have the right to decide not to get vaccinated. Nobody is forcing them to. That choice will have consequences (who knew?).


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... this is really contradictory for someone who is pro-employer/business.


I don't see how.



> So as a manager, what happens if you have a subordinate reporting to you declared your bolded statement? I'm interested in knowing what your / youer employer's accommodation will be.


I don't demand my female staff are on birth control either.


----------



## MrMatt

MyCatMittens said:


> People have the right to decide not to get vaccinated. Nobody is forcing them to. That choice will have consequences (who knew?).


You know one of the issues are, what if you shouldn't, based on legitimate medical advice, have the COVID19 vaccine.
Should you be banned from public, lose your job?


----------



## Beaver101

Toronto's top doctor recommends vaccination requirements for all workplaces, large gatherings

The list for vaccination requirement in the workplace seems to be getting bigger as with supporting pressures from public health, hospitals top brass, medical/health practitioners/associations, etc.


----------



## sags

There is no evidence the vaccines cause deaths (except for some rare deaths attributed to the AZ vaccine).

In fact, the clinical studies and hundreds of millions of vaccinations unequivocally prove the death rate among the vaccinated is no higher than normal.









The benefits of getting the COVID-19 vaccine outweigh its risks; there is no increased mortality rate among vaccinated people relative to unvaccinated people


To date, hundreds of millions of people around the world have received at least one dose of COVID-19 vaccine. Review of clinical trial data by regulatory agencies, in addition to continued monitoring of safety signals during the ongoing COVID-19 vaccination campaigns, show that vaccinated people...




healthfeedback.org


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I don't see how.


 ... as a shareholder? as an employee?



> I don't demand my female staff are on birth control either.


 ... not public-health related. And please stay on topic. Public vaccinations.


----------



## sags

Should you lose your job ? No.......you should be moved to a location that protects other employees or laid off until the pandemic is over.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Should you lose your job ? No.......you should be moved to a location that protects other employees or laid off until the pandemic is over.


 ... watch the outcries (soon) with the "no-paid leave of absence".


----------



## MyCatMittens

MrMatt said:


> You know one of the issues are, what if you shouldn't, based on legitimate medical advice, have the COVID19 vaccine.
> Should you be banned from public, lose your job?


If you can provide valid medical evidence, then that should be a discussion with your employer. I assume the consequence of that will be frequent rapid testing. Or equally as likely, you will not be allowed to return to work in person.

I haven't heard of a lot of "legitimate medical advice" (not saying there is none) against getting vaccinated though. And I have a hard time believing that 99% of the unvaccinated is due to medical advice.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> Toronto's top doctor recommends vaccination requirements for all workplaces, large gatherings
> 
> The list for vaccination requirement in the workplace seems to be getting bigger as with supporting pressures from public health, hospitals top brass, medical/health practitioners/associations, etc.


But given that vaccination doesn't stop the spread of COVID19, is this a reasonable infringement on peoples lives?
There doesn't' seem to be a compelling public benefit that would justify an unwanted medical intervention. We're talking about saving peoples lives here!!

As the most pro-vax person on this forum, I still have trouble understanding how people don't see the human rights violation here.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> But given that vaccination doesn't stop the spread of COVID19, is this a reasonable infringement on peoples lives?


 ... you might want to ask the question "is it a reasonable infringement on other people's lives?" when the ICUs get clogged with (mostly) the "un-vaccinateds"? Now if the un-vaccinateds sign a waiver that they'll not be using the ICUs because they want to exercise their right not to get vaccinated when their chances of ending up there is far greater than the vaccinateds, then by all means, don't get vaccinated - ever.



> There doesn't' seem to be a compelling public benefit that would justify an unwanted medical intervention. We're talking about saving peoples lives here!!


 ... the irony. Saving the few unvaccinateds over the vaccinateds in the ICU and elsewhere in the hospital?



> As the most pro-vax person on this forum, I still have trouble understanding how people don't see the human rights violation here.


 ... because your pro-vax stance supporting "human rights" for the unvaccinateds is a faulty one.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MyCatMittens said:


> If you can provide valid medical evidence, then that should be a discussion with your employer. I assume the consequence of that will be frequent rapid testing. Or equally as likely, you will not be allowed to return to work in person.
> 
> I haven't heard of a lot of "legitimate medical advice" (not saying there is none) against getting vaccinated though. And I have a hard time believing that 99% of the unvaccinated is due to medical advice.


Some people have severe allergic reactions to vaccines. They obviously should not get vaccinated.

My opinion on the matter is just this: 

The only way a person who legitimately cannot get a vaccination, and all the others who get a vaccination, but it does not work well for them, like immune compromised and the very old and frail, are going to be protected in this country is if everyone who can get vaccinated, do.

The only way the unvaccinated, who do not have a legitimate issue, which is the vast majority of them, will ever get vaccinated in the numbers we need is if we issue very restrictive vaccine passports. So, in my opinion, although these people who legitimately cannot vaccinate will be also excluded, it should provide them with a much better protection from covid, going forward. 

It is just an estimate but that is my thinking on the matter. In either case, sometimes people get the short end of the stick by simply being the exceptions. Can't really do much about that. We certainly cannot make an exception for them or the whole plan falls apart. For work they should be allowed to wear a mask and undergo frequent testing. For all non-essential issues they must be excluded like all the rest.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Nobody will be forced to vaccinate. Nobody is going to be held down and jabbed. It will be strictly voluntary.
> 
> But......without vaccination they may not have complete freedom to do whatever they want. That isn't particularly unusual.
> 
> A person may want to drive a car, but it does require proof of a driver license.
> 
> A person may want to own a gun and go hunting, but it is still required they hold the proper certification.
> 
> A person may want to perform brain surgery, but training, education and certification are required.
> 
> A vaccination certificate isn't all that different from many requirements that already exist in our daily lives.


It is also voluntary in some countries to be in a relationship with a person from same gender.
You are simply coerced not to do it by being shot in the head.
But it is not a human right violation since you can still make voluntary decision!


----------



## zinfit

OptsyEagle said:


> Not going to the barbecue would not have made much of a difference, in my opinion. If it helps and I know a unconfirmed health tip from OptsyE is not worth much to many around here, but in my opinion, there is no better booster shot out there then very a low dose exposure, outside infection of the Delta variant, preferably after being fully vaccinated. That could not help but provide some rock solid immunity IMO. You should be hugging anyone that opens their arms, and I want to emphasize outside. Remember, soon we will all be going inside.
> 
> Perhaps every barbecue should offer this. lol


unless one is hugging and kissing an outdoor event is a much smaller risk. The virus basically thrives indoors. That is one reason for the high case count in florida and Texas . When the daily temperatures average 100 degrees with very high humidity people are indoors. It is almost certain that we get fourth wave in the fall when people move indoors.


----------



## sags

Those countries don't have human rights.

Leaders who abuse their population have a history of ending up in a bad place......see Hitler, Mussolini, Gaddafi, Hussein,..........


----------



## zinfit

OptsyEagle said:


> The other consideration one should give, with respect to these studies pertaining to waning immunity is that all the data they are using seems mostly to be coming out of the US and Israel. Keep in mind that they both used the suggested dose interval of 3 to 4 weeks between doses. Although it was pure luck on our part and the UK etc., it has turned out that immunity is better when the dose interval is extended. I can't say if it relates to longevity of immunity but better is usually better and later is always later. The last point can't help but give us more time.
> 
> In any event I have not seen anything that tells me the average population desperately need a 3rd dose. Immuno deficient people need it obviously and if they want to give it to older ages, so be it. My concern is more from a reluctance to vaccinate at all, the requirement for 3 doses is going to give an unvaccinated person if they are told it is needed. So far I don't see it. It sounds like countries reacting to non-issues or wanting to use up a stock pile of already paid for, soon to expire vaccine.


Dr Scott Gottlieb the former head of the FDA and a member of the Pfizer board says the issue is the decline in anti bodies after 7 or 8 months. The decline in higher risk people is sufficient to lead to breakthrough cases. He says the tcell response is strong enough in most cases to prevent severe outcomes. He says the Delta is a much stronger and more difficult than previous variants. He says a third shot increases the anti body strength by 5 fold. As an aside it seems a challenge to see a consistent pattern with the Delta variant. In India it looks like it has run its coarse, in the UK it seems to be in decline , in Israel it has been a challenge and we know its current pattern in Texas and the SE USA.


----------



## sags

Hospitals are confined indoor spaces, which could be a huge problem for everyone needing treatment if they are full of covid patients.

At all costs and using all levels of restrictions, we must protect our healthcare system or we will be in the worst kind of situation.

Imagine calling 911 for a heart attack or accident and being told........sorry......we can't respond or take any more patients.

Our extra healthcare capacity in Canada is limited. I would like to see what numbers of covid would overwhelm an already challenged system.

It would provide a stark reminder to people, and perhaps more importantly to leaders, of one benchmark we must avoid at all cost.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Those countries don't have human rights.
> 
> Leaders who abuse their population have a history of ending up in a bad place......see Hitler, Mussolini, Gaddafi, Hussein,..........


Yet this is exactly the logic you are using to defend authoritarians here.
'It isn't violation because noone injects you by force, you do it voluntarily'
That logic is faulty.

Obesity takes up much more ER space than COVID does.
Yet noone is calling for obese to have their human rights violated.
And rightfully so.

Your arguments are ridiculous as you apply them only to one subset of population yet don't apply same standards to any other subsets. That's discrimination.

The vaccines don't stop the spread.
Human rights can be violated by coercion
COVID isn't biggest contributor to ER usage.
There is plenty of despicable actions that by statistics would improve the lives of majority of society. And government in Canada sometimes acted on those - let's not make the same mistakes again.

There are no arguments for it.
Not a single one, let alone enough to justify human rights violation by mandating/coercing medical procedure.


----------



## Money172375

Has anyone seen any rules, legislation or policies mandating vaccines for common spaces in condos? Pools, meeting rooms, squash?


----------



## Beaver101

^ It would not surprise me that security staff of the condos will be mandated to be vaccinated and all residents will be required to wear masks whilst in the common/shared areas. I think J4B can qualify all these details in those settings.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ^ It would not surprise me that security staff of the condos will be mandated to be vaccinated and all residents will be required to wear masks whilst in the common/shared areas. I think J4B can qualify all these details in those settings.


I don’t live in a condo, but we have an HOA with common amenities . The members are asking for a vaccine passport. We’re all volunteers with no employees. Not sure how to even start enforcement. We demand masks in indoor spaces but members are asking for more. The board is reluctant to do anything until the province launches a passport.


----------



## sags

There is more danger from taking a Tylenol tablet than from the vaccine. 

The "danger" to people getting vaccinated is non-existent, except in rare cases of medical conditions that can be verified by a doctor.

Other than that.........pull up your sleeve or stay home and play tiddly winks.


----------



## Spudd

We don't yet know whether vaccines stop the spread of Delta. It is literally not known. All of you shouting "vaccines don't stop the spread", please provide a source.









Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)


CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




www.cdc.gov


----------



## bgc_fan

Spudd said:


> We don't yet know whether vaccines stop the spread of Delta. It is literally not known. All of you shouting "vaccines don't stop the spread", please provide a source.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
> 
> 
> CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


Doesn't your link say that vaccinated people can spread the delta variant?

_Second, new data began to emerge that the Delta variant was more infectious and was leading to increased transmissibility when compared to other variants,* even in vaccinated individuals*.

*Fully vaccinated people with Delta variant breakthrough infections can spread the virus to others*. However, vaccinated people appear to be infectious for a shorter period: Previous variants typically produced less virus in the body of infected fully vaccinated people (breakthrough infections) than in unvaccinated people. In contrast, the Delta variant seems to produce the same high amount of virus in both unvaccinated and fully vaccinated people. However, like other variants, the amount of virus produced by Delta breakthrough infections in fully vaccinated people also goes down faster than infections in unvaccinated people. *This means fully vaccinated people are likely infectious for less time than unvaccinated people.*_

But because vaccinated people recover quicker, they'll likely be less infectious.


----------



## Spudd

bgc_fan said:


> Doesn't your link say that vaccinated people can spread the delta variant?
> 
> _Second, new data began to emerge that the Delta variant was more infectious and was leading to increased transmissibility when compared to other variants,* even in vaccinated individuals*.
> 
> *Fully vaccinated people with Delta variant breakthrough infections can spread the virus to others*. However, vaccinated people appear to be infectious for a shorter period: Previous variants typically produced less virus in the body of infected fully vaccinated people (breakthrough infections) than in unvaccinated people. In contrast, the Delta variant seems to produce the same high amount of virus in both unvaccinated and fully vaccinated people. However, like other variants, the amount of virus produced by Delta breakthrough infections in fully vaccinated people also goes down faster than infections in unvaccinated people. *This means fully vaccinated people are likely infectious for less time than unvaccinated people.*_
> 
> But because vaccinated people recover quicker, they'll likely be less infectious.


It says there can be breakthrough cases but we know from statistics that breakthrough cases are like 90% less likely in vaccinated people.

Because we don't tend to test asymptomatic vaccinated people (unless traveling), the question is whether asymptomatic vaccinated people can spread it. It's semi-obvious that symptomatic vaccinated people can spread it.

The key point I was trying to get across was this: CDC is continuing to assess data on whether fully vaccinated people with asymptomatic breakthrough infections can transmit.

Without knowing this, it's not fair to say indiscriminately that vaccinated people spread it just as much. If vaccinated asymptomatic people don't spread it, then vaccinated people spread it 90% less (or whatever the exact statistic is regarding breakthrough cases).


----------



## MrMatt

Spudd said:


> It says there can be breakthrough cases but we know from statistics that breakthrough cases are like 90% less likely in vaccinated people.
> 
> Because we don't tend to test asymptomatic vaccinated people (unless traveling), the question is whether asymptomatic vaccinated people can spread it. It's semi-obvious that symptomatic vaccinated people can spread it.
> 
> The key point I was trying to get across was this: CDC is continuing to assess data on whether fully vaccinated people with asymptomatic breakthrough infections can transmit.
> 
> Without knowing this, it's not fair to say indiscriminately that vaccinated people spread it just as much. If vaccinated asymptomatic people don't spread it, then vaccinated people spread it 90% less (or whatever the exact statistic is regarding breakthrough cases).


We know asymptomatic people spread COVID19, we know vaccinated people spread COVID19. It seems logical that asymptomatic vaccinated people would still spread COVID19.

Of course they should keep studying it, there is value there.
Heck even though we've know the earth isn't flat for centuries they're still studying how round it is. Just because you've proven something, doesn't mean the research should stop.


----------



## bgc_fan

Spudd said:


> Without knowing this, it's not fair to say indiscriminately that vaccinated people spread it just as much. If vaccinated asymptomatic people don't spread it, then vaccinated people spread it 90% less (or whatever the exact statistic is regarding breakthrough cases).


I don't necessarily think the issue is that vaccinated people spread it as much. It just has to be realized that vaccinated people can spread it. Some have taken the idea that because they're vaccinated they're completely immune, but breakthrough cases do happen. Obviously it is at a lower frequency than unvaccinated.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I think what vaccinated people are actually saying is that we are immune enough...or put another way, we are as immune as we probably will ever be, and need to be, to deal with this virus. 

If others are worried about how much a vaccinated person can spread the virus we recommend they get vaccinated as well and most likely they will then be as immune as they can ever be and will be able to deal with the virus the best they will ever able to.

That is what vaccinated people are saying. At least the ones going on with their life are most likely saying that.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Those countries don't have human rights.
> 
> Leaders who abuse their population have a history of ending up in a bad place......see Hitler, Mussolini, Gaddafi, Hussein,..........


I hope that Trudeau will end too


----------



## Ukrainiandude

You get a broader immune response after being infected with the virus than vaccination. 
Whether you've had Moderna or Pfizer or Oxford-AstraZeneca, your body is learning to spot just one thing - the spike protein. 
This is the critical part of the virus to make antibodies to, and the results - by keeping most out of hospital - have been spectacular. 
But having the other 28 proteins to target too, would give T-cells far more to go at. 
"That means if you had a real humdinger of an infection, you may have better immunity to any new variants that pop up as you have immunity to more than just spike," said Prof Riley.


----------



## like_to_retire

"That means if you had a real humdinger of an infection, you may" die.

ltr


----------



## Ukrainiandude

The virus is getting less virulent, Trudeau isn't.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> I don’t live in a condo, but we have an HOA with common amenities . The members are asking for a vaccine passport. We’re all volunteers with no employees. Not sure how to even start enforcement. We demand masks in indoor spaces but members are asking for more. The board is reluctant to do anything until the province launches a passport.


 ... I just googled HOA and came across this link. Even though this is from the USA, a quick read tells me it would be a good idea for the board to update its by-laws (if not done yet) with the help of a lawyer to cover rules to mitigate risks for homeowners on catching Covid whilst inside the commonly shared areas of the condo/units . I think at this point, only masks and social distancings mandates are enforceable there. Ie. the bylaws updating is ongoing .. pending legislated vaccine passport.

IMHO, at this point in time, I think any "reasonable" "decent" "homeowner" will take "all" the necessary precautions to protect him/herself and his/her family - ie. get vaccinated, wear masks, keep distance, etc. from catching Covid or whatever else can adversely him/her/family. I.e. start with personal responsibility first. This will then cover a large part of social responsibility. 

What Is HOA? Should You Live in an HOA Community? | HOAM


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> ... watch the outcries (soon) with the "no-paid leave of absence".


 ... this is even better - a permanent no-pay LOA:

UHN says employees not vaccinated by end of October will be fired


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ... this is even better - a permanent no-pay LOA:
> 
> UHN says employees not vaccinated by end of October will be fired


Don’t they already have shortage of personnel ?
I call it bluffing 
Can unionized personnel be fired without reason? I don’t think so.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Don’t they already have shortage of personnel ?
> I call it bluffing
> Can unionized personnel be fired without reason? I don’t think so.


 ... there're about 10,000 workers in the UHN which comprise mainly of 3 major hospitals in TO. They can shift personnel between hospitals (which they probably already do). 

You can call it bluffing which is a pretty BIG one for front page news. As for crying to their unions on this ... let's see where all this goes. Don't forget there is a first for everything.


----------



## sags

Maybe the terminated employees will be more content in a job where common sense and good judgement aren't required..


----------



## sags

Unions don't decide conditions of employment. That falls under management rights.

But, they may pay the legal costs for members to take the matter to court and they can have a judicial decision in.........oh, say 2 or 3 years from now.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Unions don't decide conditions of employment. That falls under management rights.
> 
> But, they may pay the legal costs for members to take the matter to court and they can have a judicial decision in.........oh, say 2 or 3 years from now.


Have you read a union contract?
Many even have performance requirements.

I know a hotel manager, his staff complained that it took more than the X minutes they were allotted to clean a room, and asked him for more.
His response "sorry, your contract says X minutes, I"m legally not permitted to change that".


----------



## sags

I negotiated a number of union contracts.

One of the first paragraphs in any union/employer contract (unless the company is totally clueless).........affirms management rights.

The negotiation begins with management owning all rights (aside from legislation) and the union contract seeks to limit some of those all prevailing rights.

Have you ever worked in a unionized environment or do you get all your information second hand ?


----------



## sags

In the example you provide of a hotel manager, the solution is the employee performs the best job they can within the time allotted and then leave the room.

The employer can then make the decision to 1) apply disciplinary measures to the employee or 2) adjust the time limits and hire more employees to do the job.

If the employer chooses option 1......we would see them in labor arbitration, where I also have some real life experience.

You apply too much emotion to situations that union representatives and company officials deal with on a frequent basis.


----------



## sags

People who dislike unions because of the contracts they negotiate don't understand the adversarial relationship between unions and employers.

The unions wouldn't have all those benefits, advantageous rules, vacation times, etc. etc....if the employer hadn't agreed to them during negotiations.

Don't blame the unions for doing a good job for the members who are paying them to represent them.


----------



## damian13ster

Covid: What’s the best way to top up our immunity?


Now we have some protection, do we need to keep boosting or can nature take its course?



www.bbc.com





Exactly. Amount of antibodies is poor measure as your organism produces them when coming in contact with the virus.
Pfizer and Moderna are laughing all the way to the bank.
Luckily for those who were actually exposed to COVID, virus is much less likely to mutate all 28 proteins rather than a single one that vaccine addresses.
Virus can escape vaccine, but it is pretty much impossible for it to escape natural immunity.


----------



## kcowan

Money172375 said:


> Has anyone seen any rules, legislation or policies mandating vaccines for common spaces in condos? Pools, meeting rooms, squash?


Mandatory masks and pool and exercise room closed.


----------



## kcowan

bgc_fan said:


> I don't necessarily think the issue is that vaccinated people spread it as much. It just has to be realized that vaccinated people can spread it. Some have taken the idea that because they're vaccinated they're completely immune, but breakthrough cases do happen. Obviously it is at a lower frequency than unvaccinated.


0.05% apprarently of hospitalizations.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

kcowan said:


> Mandatory masks and pool and exercise room closed.



Do I need to wear a mask?No. Masks are no longer required when accessing indoor public facilities. 









Leisure Centres


Saskatoon has six indoor Leisure Centres located throughout the city, plus the Terry Fox Track. Each Centre is unique and feature amenities like swimming pools, waterslides, indoor tracks, gymnasiums, sport courts, fitness and weight rooms, child minding and even a skating rink and wave pool!




www.saskatoon.ca





*Re-Open Saskatchewan: Indoor Pools, Rinks, Sports And The Performing Arts Can Re-Open On July 6; Casinos And Bingo Halls To Follow On July 9





Re-Open Saskatchewan: Indoor Pools, Rinks, Sports And The Performing Arts Can Re-Open On July 6; Casinos And Bingo Halls To Follow On July 9 | News and Media | Government of Saskatchewan


Businesses, events and activities continue to re-open in the second part of Phase 4 of Re-Open Saskatchewan.



www.saskatchewan.ca




*


----------



## sags

Meanwhile in the west.......Alberta Premier Kenney demands a wage cut from nurses and then days later demands they work mandatory overtime and cancel their vacations.

Infections in Alberta are 10X from what they were only weeks ago and hospitals are overrun with covid patients.

This is truly a WTF moment for Albertans.


----------



## kcowan

Our facillities are not public.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Meanwhile in the west.......Alberta Premier Kenney demands a wage cut from nurses and then days later demands they work mandatory overtime and cancel their vacations.
> 
> Infections in Alberta are 10X from what they were only weeks ago *and hospitals are overrun with covid patients.*
> 
> This is truly a WTF moment for Albertans.


Yet another lie.
Hospitalizations are at 1/4 of what there were in previous peak.
ICU utilization at about 1/5 of previous peak.
And we didn't run out of space back then either.
Numbers are easily verifiable at alberta.ca website.
For anyone reading this, check actual facts as sags has a long-distance relationship with the truth


----------



## sags

_Alberta's nurses may soon be forced to work mandatory overtime and cancel holidays in response to a chronic staffing problem worsened by surging COVID-19 hospitalizations. 

"What they are upset about is the fact that it is being minimized by both AHS and the government who were saying to the public, 'Everything is fine. This is just a summer vacation issue.' And in fact, everything is not fine." _



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-health-services-invokes-emergency-work-rules-for-nurses-as-covid-hospitalizations-rise-1.6148537?cmp=rss


----------



## Ukrainiandude

mRNA vaccine is a new radium?
Food products containing radium, like the Radium Schokolade chocolate bar manufactured by Burk *&* Braun and Hippman-Blach bakery's Radium Bread, made with radium water, were popular overseas until they were discontinued in 1936.




__





How We Realized Putting Radium in Everything Was Not the Answer


Gone are the days when the only way to make butter seem even healthier was to name it after a radioactive element.




www.theatlantic.com












for those people who attended Canadian school.
Radium is the heaviest known alkaline earth metal and is the only *radioactive* member of its group.


----------



## sags

Despite our inferior education system, we never contemplated eating radioactive food........but we did eat peameal bacon (Canadian bacon).


----------



## OptsyEagle

damian13ster said:


> Covid: What’s the best way to top up our immunity?
> 
> 
> Now we have some protection, do we need to keep boosting or can nature take its course?
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. Amount of antibodies is poor measure as your organism produces them when coming in contact with the virus.
> Pfizer and Moderna are laughing all the way to the bank.
> Luckily for those who were actually exposed to COVID, virus is much less likely to mutate all 28 proteins rather than a single one that vaccine addresses.
> Virus can escape vaccine, but it is pretty much impossible for it to escape natural immunity.


For anyone interested Dr. John here gives a pretty good synopsis of what they are discussing in that article.






For anyone who have been following my posts here for the last few weeks it is pretty much bang on what I have been trying to tell everyone. The only way out of this pandemic, at this stage of it, is to get vaccinated, take off your mask and go on with your life. The article damian posted and Dr. Johns (1st 20 minutes of video) discussion probably explains why, better then me. They certainly add more people to the argument, who have much better credentials then I do, anyway.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> For anyone interested Dr. John here gives a pretty good synopsis of what they are discussing in that article.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For anyone who have been following my posts here for the last few weeks it is pretty much bang on what I have been trying to tell everyone. The only way out of this pandemic, at this stage of it, is to get vaccinated, take off your mask and go on with your life. The article damian posted and Dr. Johns (1st 20 minutes of video) discussion probably explains why, better then me. They certainly add more people to the argument, who have much better credentials then I do, anyway.


 ... you or daminxxxster first. Has "Dr.John" tried it also? Show us the video with him without the mask and mingle with those ICU patients and then the rest of us can decide which route to follow.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Beaver101 said:


> ... you or daminxxxster first. Has "Dr.John" tried it also? Show us the video with him without the mask and mingle with those ICU patients and then the rest of us can decide which route to follow.


Look. This is conceptual. The point I have been trying to make to all the fear mongrels here is that most of the suggestions they have put forward do very little, other then delay the inevitable infections the unvaccinated AND the vaccinated are going to get.

That is going to happen. We are all going to get exposed to this virus. It cannot be prevented, only delayed. The good news is that right now the only issue left to deal with, with this pandemic, is ensuring our hospitals do not get overwhelmed going forward. I believe that a combination of vaccination and mild infection should be enough to ensure a person should never require hospitalization for covid reasons only, ever again. It is our next step. I suspect the powers at be will see it as well. I doubt you will see a 3rd dose recommended for everyone, in Canada. It won't be enough, it is too difficult and I doubt we are going to get that amount of time.

Now the trick is to take this next step cautiously and intelligently. If you find yourself outside with people outside your household, remove your mask. It is the safest infection you can get. I can't say it will be safe, I can only say it is the safest. If you find yourself indoors with people outside your household, try to ensure some level of ventilation, air movement and try not to stay too long. At least for this fall and winter...or stay away from people during indoor events. Leave your socializing for outside only, if you are worried, but attempting to avoid contact with covid will be a futile effort. Better to plan for the meeting then to walk into it unprepared. Vaccination is obviously the most important 1st step.


----------



## sags

Dr John (Campbell) is a retired nurse. He is not an MD, although he calls himself a Doctor.

He broadcasts his Youtube channel from a back room in his home in the UK. He is not an expert whose advice should be taken seriously.


----------



## OptsyEagle

You don't need to be an MD to understand common sense and all he is doing is reviewing the studies that have been presented. Read Damian's article if you prefer to hear the same information from someone with initials after their name.

I don't want anyone to think this is not a dangerous step. I want people to understand that it is the next step, all the same, a step that cannot be avoided. If you are able to obtain this "benign" infection, I don't want anyone to think that they are not going to feel sick. I suspect your indication of a job well done will probably be something that will feel the equivalent of the worse cold you ever had and it should last for a few days. If you are fully vaccinated the odds are by far in your favourd of recovery, if you do not have any major co-morbidities and are not too old and frail. That would be anyone older then 80 in my books and if you want to include yourself if you are older then 70, then by all means. That said, you won't be able to avoid contact with this virus forever and we know too well the maximum protection you can get from the vaccines. That said, contracting the virus from someone who carries it but does not get sick from it anymore would be much safer then contacting it from someone who is unvaccinated and can shed a pretty dangerous load of the stuff. That better situation will be more common in 2022 and beyond then it is right now, so I will leave what you should do up to you.

I am just trying to point out where this pandemic is going, since we seem to want to anchor on old strategies, that have helped us considerably, but unfortuneately cannot get us to the end.


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> I am just trying to point out where this pandemic is going, since we seem to want to anchor on old strategies, that have helped us considerably, but unfortuneately cannot get us to the end.


It's a little early to break out the champagne. Alberta is starting to see a rise in ICU patients, and now they are looking to implement mandatory overtime and cancelling nurses' vacations. That's a nice kick in the pants. I guess it must be the union and overstaffing that they have to be forced to do that.


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> It's a little early to break out the champagne. Alberta is starting to see a rise in ICU patients, and now they are looking to implement mandatory overtime and cancelling nurses' vacations. That's a nice kick in the pants. I guess it must be the union and overstaffing that they have to be forced to do that.


That has nothing to do with what I am saying. We keep forgetting that the majority of Canadians are vaccinated. We also should know by now that their ability to fight off this virus is substantially improved. That mindset is going to result in socialization. They are not doing it because I am telling them it is the next step, they are doing it because they feel safe and they have missed out on this for too long. That is what is causing the increase in ICU patients and that cannot be stopped even if Alberta calls for a lockdown. * People did not act appropriately in the past, because of restrictions, they did it because they were afraid of the virus and simply used the restrictions as their reason. * *Well, they don't feel afraid anymore.*

I am just trying to help them figure out how to navigate this new world of vaccination, delta variant and renewed socialization. Hopefully it can result in no more runs on our hospitals, after this one. This one may not be able to be stopped. If I come up with an idea for that I will let everyone know but I know mask mandates and restrictions, like we have used in the past, will not do enough anymore.


----------



## like_to_retire

bgc_fan said:


> It's a little early to break out the champagne. Alberta is starting to see a rise in ICU patients, and now they are looking to implement mandatory overtime and cancelling nurses' vacations.


I wonder how a full blown 4th wave that may line up with voting day in September will affect voter turnout.

Health experts say not to worry because everyone will be issued their own pencil, and we'll clean the stations every 30 to 60 minutes, and of course to respect their rights vaccination will not be required of poll workers.

Yeah, I signed up for mail in ballot.

ltr


----------



## sags

I will vote in an early poll.


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> That has nothing to do with what I am saying. We keep forgetting that the majority of Canadians are vaccinated. We also should know by now that their ability to fight off this virus is substantially improved. That mindset is going to result in socialization. They are not doing it because I am telling them it is the next step, they are doing it because they feel safe and they have missed out on this for too long. That is what is causing the increase in ICU patients and that cannot be stopped even if Alberta calls for a lockdown. * People did not act appropriately in the past, because of restrictions, they did it because they were afraid of the virus and simply used the restrictions as their reason. * *Well, they don't feel afraid anymore.*
> 
> I am just trying to help them figure out how to navigate this new world of vaccination, delta variant and renewed socialization. Hopefully it can result in no more runs on our hospitals, after this one. This one may not be able to be stopped. If I come up with an idea for that I will let everyone know but I know mask mandates and restrictions, like we have used in the past, will not do enough anymore.


Isn't it though? You're basically saying: Everyone who wants to be vaccinated is vaccinated. Those who can't, go get infected and hope you get a mild case.


----------



## Beaver101

^ From OE's above post #4121:



> ... Now the trick is to take this next step cautiously and intelligently. If you find yourself outside with people outside your household, remove your mask. *It is the safest infection you can get. I can't say it will be safe, I can only say it is the safest. ... *


 ... how credible is that? He can't say it'll be safe and yet says it's the safest. Which is it? 

Like I said, you and/or damianxxxster go try it first ... don't forget your starting words "Look. It's conceptual" too.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ^ From OE's above post #4121:
> 
> ... how credible is that? He can't say it'll be safe and yet says it's the safest. Which is it?
> 
> Like I said, you and/or damianxxxster go try it first ... don't forget your starting words "Look. It's conceptual" too.


Try what?

Out of curiosity (since they were easily available and free) I took antibody test last year in Europe. Turned out I already had antibodies. 

This year I got vaccinated.
I haven't even noticed getting antibodies through infection at all. Wasn't aware I ever came in contact with the virus. Vaccine put me in fetal position for 3 days with massive lung and heart pain. 

For me, getting through infection was completely unnoticeable and getting through vaccine was close to worst physical experience of my entire life. 
Now, I am not suggesting everyone's (or even majority's) experience will be the same.
You simply asked by name, don't know why but whatever, which is the only reason why I share my experience.


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> Isn't it though? You're basically saying: Everyone who wants to be vaccinated is vaccinated. Those who can't, go get infected and hope you get a mild case.


No I am saying everyone go get vaccinated. If you don't or you can't and even if you do, you will get infected. So best to get infected the safest way we know how.

I am also adding that until everyone gets a little more exposed to the virus we cannot ever be sure we will not have another run on the hospitals. So if that is important to you, then delaying your future infection is more of a problem then a benefit. Also, if this things mutates up in severity, and eventually it will, you are going to want that extra protection.

Hopefully that clears up my position.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Listen guys. It doesn't really matter if you agree with me here. I am not saying it is the next step, as in the next step of a plan. I am saying it is the next step in which none of us are given any choice in the matter. I have exhaustively reviewed all the options available to the inhabitants of this planet and I have come up with what I see as the only possible way this pandemic is going to end...and it is going to end. No one can stop that either, no matter how many rules are put in place to delay it. This latest variant is just too infectious to stop.

The part that is my plan only revolves around how to put yourself in the best position for survival. Either find a way to get your next viral dose safely or let the virus choose for you from either safely, very severe or deadly. Either way, unless you have another planet to go live on, those are your only choices available to you going forward.

I imagine the powers at be will eventually notice this situation for what it is. Perhaps attempting to delay these infections until next spring may have some merit, I just don't think many of our vaccinated citizens, and with them I have to include many of our unvaccinated citizens as well, are going to wait that long. So there it is. Good luck to everyone.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

The Health Ministry reported today (Thursday) that the first ten cases of the AY3 coronavirus strain based on the Delta strain had been found in Israel. The AY3 strain is based on the Delta variant, from which a number of further mutations have been found, including several considered more "virulent." Of those infected, eight had returned from abroad and two were infected inside Israel.

This week, a representative of the Health Ministry in the Knesset said of the strain that it "causes concern and will lead us to lockdown" and expressed concern about the possibility of it being discovered in Israel, since it is a variant with a high infection rate that can develop a resistance to the coronavirus vaccines.








Dangerous new COVID strain found in Israel


Health Min. reports 10 cases in Israel of AY3 COVID strain, a more virulent offshoot of the contagious Delta variant.




www.israelnationalnews.com


----------



## gibor365

Israel today already recorded 55 deaths from Covid, vaccination rate there is very similar to Canadian one and about 1M already got 3rd dose! The absolute maximum of deaths (before vaccination campaign) was 61. Looks like vaccines don’t provide ant protection


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> No I am saying everyone go get vaccinated. If you don't or you can't and even if you do, you will get infected. So best to get infected the safest way we know how.
> 
> I am also adding that until everyone gets a little more exposed to the virus we cannot ever be sure we will not have another run on the hospitals. So if that is important to you, then delaying your future infection is more of a problem then a benefit. Also, if this things mutates up in severity, and eventually it will, you are going to want that extra protection.
> 
> Hopefully that clears up my position.


Your position isn't any different from what I stated, which is, everyone who isn't vaccinated should go get infected. There's no "safe" way to get infected, nor a good way to control the rate of infection. But that's your opinion then.


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> Your position isn't any different from what I stated, which is, everyone who isn't vaccinated should go get infected. There's no "safe" way to get infected, nor a good way to control the rate of infection. But that's your opinion then.


There are safer ways to get infected, just no sure way to do it safely. If you can't understand that read it again. I think I have explained the difference between a safer infection compared to a dangerous infection enough times.

If you are unvaccinated that is about the riskiest way to get infected there will ever be, but of course there is still a safer way for that as well. My recommendation for the unvaccinated will always be to get vaccinated first. This Delta variant is nasty. Don't mistake me on that. I am not trying to belittle the danger of this virus.

As I said above, whether one agrees or not, the future is pretty well laid out for us. With our current vaccination rates there will be some serious carnage, this fall/winter, but I cannot do too much about that. If one is worried, protect yourself for as long as you can, but remember the infections will only get more dangerous as the colder weather comes upon us. Add to that a possible mutating virus and a possible waning immunity and you may very well find out that the infection you get later is much more dangerous then the infection you might get tomorrow. The odds are it will be anyway. And odds are all I can go on.

In any case. We will all eventually get exposed to the virus. We will become stronger, making the virus weaker by the result and within about 12 months, the danger of hospital over runs will be over, in Canada, and that will end our pandemic. Although there will be small outbreaks, here and there, we will eventually move on to other world problems to argue about.

If you figure out a way to avoid it forever, please let us know. That would be nice. I just don't see it.


----------



## damian13ster

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/mixed-dose-woes-some-canadians-lost-out-on-jobs-abroad-due-to-their-mixed-vaccines-1.6144914



Listening to incompetent government can destroy your livelihoods.
Remember that next time. You have been warned before, now you got another proof.


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> People who dislike unions because of the contracts they negotiate don't understand the adversarial relationship between unions and employers.
> 
> The unions wouldn't have all those benefits, advantageous rules, vacation times, etc. etc....if the employer hadn't agreed to them during negotiations.
> 
> Don't blame the unions for doing a good job for the members who are paying them to represent them.


This is a sidetrack, mods can delete or move if not appropriate. I have worked in union environment as management. Then the f'ing union 'captured' our position over some technicalities. As result, the change in benefits I receive are so much worse. 

I am paying union dues for less flexibility in my work, I cannot choose to be a professional and negotiate working late when I have tight deadlines and leaving when it's less busy (when that happens),
I have to wait any extra 3 years before I get my extra week vacation for years
Severance is now pre-set to a max of 8 weeks, back in my managerial position if laid off, I would have legally fought for somewhere between 36-48 weeks. I don't care about the 'protection' as I get job offers all the time
It's more difficult to move positions back into management because of the sigma of union
I will NEVER get a raise because my position was regraded at a lower amount due to stupid grading system, so they did me the 'favour' of red circling me to protect my salary.
My flex days were reduced
My HSA was reduced

There were a whole bunch of benefits that I lost. I have read my union contract, and each time I read it, I find something else I lost. I did go to the children's xmas party one year and my oldest just aged out, so she got nothing and it was free average food. They also have a scholarship for kids in high school, they have to write an essay on the 'Importance of Unions adding to peoples lives' - my straight A, gifted child who is so eloquent in her writing, research and debate was unable to do so on good conscience. 

My position was unionized because the union wanted more power. I can tell you they do NOT represent me. I find unions protect the weak in most cases. There are a few exceptions which I do agree for unions, but very few.


----------



## sags

Sorry to hear you are unhappy with your employment situation.

Unions don't just walk in and "take over" a workplace, so there must have been a lot of unhappy employees who sought a union and voted to ratify it.

The requirement is 50% plus 1 to ratify a union, but occasionally people ratify a union and are unhappy in the future with the results the union provide to them.

They certainly have the option of voting out the union or can seek out another union to represent them.

In general, more employees vote to unionize than vote to non-unionize.


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/mixed-dose-woes-some-canadians-lost-out-on-jobs-abroad-due-to-their-mixed-vaccines-1.6144914
> 
> 
> 
> Listening to incompetent government can destroy your livelihoods.
> Remember that next time. You have been warned before, now you got another proof.


As usual Canada screwed Canadians! I walked out 3 times from vaccination center in order on 4th time get 2nd Pfizer (as the 1st one)...even though clinics tried to convince me to mix vaccine as Ontario goverment as per my Health Card allocated me Moderma!
My daughter coundn't resist clinic pressure and mixed 2 mNRA vaccines.
But my wife mixed AZ with Moderna, so looks like we are going to have trouble to go on vacations.
_However, in Canada, only Quebec and Saskatchewan have announced they're offering third doses to people travelling abroad. Quebec and Saskatchewan each told CBC News that, at this time, only people living in the province can apply. - _as usual , retarded Ontario is not offering 

_"The Government of Canada continues to work with the World Health Organization and its international partners to share data proving the efficacy of a mixed vaccine schedule," said Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada in a statement. - _
sure, who cares about jokers from The Government of Canada LOL

Truly, Canada is "the best country in the World" LOL


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Try what?


 ... your name got pulled in by OE into his post above to support his touting of that "Dr. John" Youtube methodology .. you know, be brave, expose yourself (especially the vaccinateds) to Covid instead of being "fearful", alleging others of "fear mongering" here. And then you can move on with your life. That's why I said, him first to try it out if he so much believes in it ... with the "and/*or*" you too. [For some reason, I'm hearing an echo of that Dump's speech here.]



> Out of curiosity (since they were easily available and free) I took antibody test last year in Europe. Turned out I already had antibodies.


 ... don't know what disease that you to antibodies here for. Presuming you're talking about Covid - and you "survived". Your luck. But also keep in mind you got the early variant. Do you have antibodies for the Delta?



> This year I got vaccinated.
> I haven't even noticed getting antibodies through infection at all. Wasn't aware I ever came in contact with the virus. Vaccine put me in fetal position for 3 days with massive lung and heart pain.
> 
> For me, getting through infection was completely unnoticeable and getting through vaccine was close to worst physical experience of my entire life.
> Now, I am not suggesting everyone's (or even majority's) experience will be the same.
> You simply asked by name, don't know why but whatever, which is the only reason why I share my experience.


 ... the vaccine wasn't as nice to you as someone else. I got both shots and had no side effects other than a sore arm. I didn't even feel the jab and wondered if I was given saline instead with the no side effects. Ie. consider those side effects did its job for you.


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> As usual Canada screwed Canadians! I walked out 3 times from vaccination center in order on 4th time get 2nd Pfizer (as the 1st one)...even though clinics tried to convince me to mix vaccine as Ontario goverment as per my Health Card allocated me Moderma!
> My daughter coundn't resist clinic pressure and mixed 2 mNRA vaccines.
> But my wife mixed AZ with Moderna, so looks like we are going to have trouble to go on vacations.
> _However, in Canada, only Quebec and Saskatchewan have announced they're offering third doses to people travelling abroad. Quebec and Saskatchewan each told CBC News that, at this time, only people living in the province can apply. - _as usual , retarded Ontario is not offering
> 
> _"The Government of Canada continues to work with the World Health Organization and its international partners to share data proving the efficacy of a mixed vaccine schedule," said Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada in a statement. - _
> sure, who cares about jokers from The Government of Canada LOL
> 
> Truly, Canada is "the best country in the World" LOL


 ... you just have to wait abit longer to "travel out of country to those countries" whilst this is being ironed out. Or you can continue with your alternative re above post "we're screwed!!!"


----------



## Beaver101

Thousands who attended Oshawa basketball tournament urged to get tested for COVID-19 following outbreak



> Published Monday, August 23, 2021 3:42PM EDT
> 
> *Potentially 7,000 people need to get tested for COVID-19 after a basketball tournament, attended by teams from all over Ontario and other provinces, resulted in an outbreak.*
> 
> Durham Region Health Department is urging anymore who attended the 43rd Annual Jane and Finch Classic basketball tournament, which was held at playground Global facility in Oshawa from Aug. 3 to 8, to get tested "immediately."
> 
> *To date, 20 COVID-19 cases have been associated with the event, including infections from Quebec, Peel Region, Toronto, and Durham Region.*
> 
> "An outbreak has been declared for this event," Durham Region said in a statement Monday.
> Health officials say they are having difficulty reaching all players and spectators.
> 
> "We are reaching out through the media to help us make contact with anyone who may have attended this event," Dr. Robert Kyle, Durham Region Medical Officer of Health, said.
> 
> *"It is very important that individuals who participated in this basketball tournament get tested as soon as possible."*


... which would have been cheaper and more efficient to execute? Proof of vaccination in order to attend the game prior or the 7,000 (even it's a potential #) tests afterwards. Duh.


----------



## damian13ster

There is zero indication that proof of vaccination would stop the outbreak.
Vaccinations don't stop infections


----------



## Beaver101

^ Correct, including paying out of pocket for the test. So now the infecteds can stay out of the ICUs when they're gasping for air.


----------



## Eder

BC will require vaccine cards Sept 16th...can't come fast enough for me...








B.C. to introduce COVID-19 vaccine passport for recreational activities, access to non-essential businesses


New system requires people wanting to visit specific places and businesses to show proof of at least one dose of coronavirus inoculation




www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> Israel today already recorded 55 deaths from Covid, vaccination rate there is very similar to Canadian one and about 1M already got 3rd dose! The absolute maximum of deaths (before vaccination campaign) was 61. *Looks like vaccines don’t provide ant protection*


 ... so does Israel get their money back from the vaccine producer?


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> As usual Canada screwed Canadians! I walked out 3 times from vaccination center in order on 4th time get 2nd Pfizer (as the 1st one)...even though clinics tried to convince me to mix vaccine as Ontario goverment as per my Health Card allocated me Moderma!
> My daughter coundn't resist clinic pressure and mixed 2 mNRA vaccines.
> But my wife mixed AZ with Moderna, so looks like we are going to have trouble to go on vacations.
> _However, in Canada, only Quebec and Saskatchewan have announced they're offering third doses to people travelling abroad. Quebec and Saskatchewan each told CBC News that, at this time, only people living in the province can apply. - _as usual , retarded Ontario is not offering
> 
> _"The Government of Canada continues to work with the World Health Organization and its international partners to share data proving the efficacy of a mixed vaccine schedule," said Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada in a statement. - _
> sure, who cares about jokers from The Government of Canada LOL
> 
> *Truly, Canada is "the best country in the World" LOL*


 ... of course it is as that's why you're still living here, isn't it?


----------



## Money172375

Money172375 said:


> Daily cases in Ontario have double over the last 10 days.
> 
> reproduction rate well over 1.0….currently 1.18.
> 
> saw one forecast predicting 7000 cases a day by September.
> 
> 1st vaccine recipients coming up on 6 months….let’s hope they last longer than that, but early reporting suggests 6 months and you start to lose effectiveness.
> 
> man, I thought the worst days were behind us…..hopefully deaths remain low, but I fear we’re in for another lockdown..


Here’s another forecast of 7000 cases a day in Ontario. A prominent member of the Ontario science table resigned because he feels political forces are squashing models showing a “dire” autumn.








‘We’re in big trouble’: Doctors worry Canada’s 4th wave of COVID-19 could be biggest yet | Globalnews.ca


Projections in several provinces suggest that the fourth wave of COVID-19 could be the worst Canada has seen, if governments don't intervene.




globalnews.ca


----------



## damian13ster

Money172375 said:


> Here’s another forecast of 7000 cases a day in Ontario. A prominent member of the Ontario science table resigned because he feels political forces are squashing models showing a “dire” autumn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘We’re in big trouble’: Doctors worry Canada’s 4th wave of COVID-19 could be biggest yet | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Projections in several provinces suggest that the fourth wave of COVID-19 could be the worst Canada has seen, if governments don't intervene.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca












What does this mean? Testing negative.
In ICU due to COVID, except without having COVID?


----------



## OptsyEagle

I always assumed they tested positive for covid, got very sick, went to the ICU, now test negative for covid, indicating that the virus is gone, but they are still very sick and still in the ICU.

Keep in mind that the virus first enters a person's respiratory track. It later replicates and then spreads throughout the body. A person's immune response will attack the virus where it sees it. If it sees it first in the respiratory track it attacks it there first. The immune system eventually attacks it in the other areas but it is later. Since a PCR test, is really just testing for virus within the nose and throat, it is very likely that these people have no more virus in their respiratory tracks but do still have active virus in other parts of their body.

By the way. The situation above is also one of the reasons that a previously infection person can have a much better immunity then vaccination. It is believed that the immunity of a previously infected person can be better immune then a vaccinated person because the body is tuned to fight the virus where it is first seen. For covid that is in the nose and throat. Because it is positioned to fight it where it is first detected, it does not give the virus as much time to replicate and that makes a person fight it off quicker and become non-infectious much quicker, as well.


----------



## damian13ster

I thought it was because in natural immunity your immune system learns to recognize all 28 proteins within COVID, so it isn't fooled by mutations as easily as vaccine, which only teaches to recognize a single protein. Once that protein mutates, vaccinations are completely useless but natural immunity still works


----------



## OptsyEagle

damian13ster said:


> I thought it was because in natural immunity your immune system learns to recognize all 28 proteins within COVID, so it isn't fooled by mutations as easily as vaccine, which only teaches to recognize a single protein. Once that protein mutates, vaccinations are completely useless but natural immunity still works


It's both. Probably a few others as well.

The technical term for what I am talking about, if anyone is interested, is with a natural infection the body produces something called "immunoglobulin A", which creates a defense specifically in the respiratory track, that does not seem to happen with immune responses from vaccination.

It does not mean a vaccinated person is basically walking around naked or anything, but they will not have that specific defense mechanism...and it is a very useful one for fighting off any new covid infections.


----------



## sags

The experts have been right about every wave coming so far, so I have no reason to doubt them now.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> The experts have been right about every wave coming so far, so I have no reason to doubt them now.


They literally talk about new wave every single day. Of course eventually they get it right.
They weren't right about magnitude of a wave a single time in last 18 months. So of course there is no reason to take those models seriously


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> They literally talk about new wave every single day. Of course eventually they get it right.
> They weren't right about magnitude of a wave a single time in last 18 months. So of course there is no reason to take those models seriously


Reminds me “stock experts” that every 2nd week predict stock market crash... 😁 “eventually they get it right” lol


----------



## sags

The experts were right about the waves but some people are hard of hearing.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> View attachment 22050
> 
> 
> What does this mean? Testing negative.
> In ICU due to COVID, except without having COVID?


You may have cleared the infection, but remain in ICU due to complications.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> They literally talk about new wave every single day. Of course eventually they get it right.
> They weren't right about magnitude of a wave a single time in last 18 months. So of course there is no reason to take those models seriously


The magnitude of the wave depends on how we respond to it, so of course you can't fully predict the peak. That would be forecasting human reactions, not the virus.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> I thought it was because in natural immunity your immune system learns to recognize all 28 proteins within COVID, so it isn't fooled by mutations as easily as vaccine, which only teaches to recognize a single protein. Once that protein mutates, vaccinations are completely useless but natural immunity still works


From what I've read, natural immunity is 2.5x less effective than vaccination at prevent repeat infection. Perhaps because natural infection might be fought off before your immune system is fully mobilized, if you only received a small dose of the virus.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> From what I've read, natural immunity is 2.5x less effective than vaccination at prevent repeat infection. Perhaps because natural infection might be fought off before your immune system is fully mobilized, if you only received a small dose of the virus.


Do you have any research paper on that?


And when it comes to magnitude of the wave - of course. Hard to predict. With the random factor though and amount of predictions, you would expect the error to diminish with each prediction and the spread to follow more of a normal distribution.
Not a single one though came anywhere close (within 50%) of the truth, and they were all skewed to one side.


----------



## gibor365

From today's Ontario Covid report: _*An additional 18 deaths were also reported on Tuesday, although 16 of those deaths occurred more than two months ago and are being logged as a result of a data clean up.*_
Ontario reports additional double-digits deaths (somehow usually it's 18 ), 2-3 times per week! Who can trust their numbers?!
Looks like the real nowadays numbers will be added in next 2-3 months 😁


----------



## sags

You expect competence from Doug Ford ?........Hahahaha...........good one Gibor.


----------



## sags

Breaking news.......a study of 4,000 health care workers showed the vaccines were 91% effective for previous viruses but only 66% effective for the Delta variant.

They discovered that most protection is gone after 8 months or so. We need mass booster shots pronto.


----------



## Spudd

damian13ster said:


> Do you have any research paper on that?


Here's one:








Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021







www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





This study found that among Kentucky residents who were previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020, those who were unvaccinated against COVID-19 had significantly higher likelihood of reinfection during May and June 2021. This finding supports the CDC recommendation that all eligible persons be offered COVID-19 vaccination, regardless of previous SARS-CoV-2 infection status.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> From today's Ontario Covid report: _*An additional 18 deaths were also reported on Tuesday, although 16 of those deaths occurred more than two months ago and are being logged as a result of a data clean up.*_
> Ontario reports additional double-digits deaths (somehow usually it's 18 ), 2-3 times per week! Who can trust their numbers?!
> Looks like the real nowadays numbers will be added in next 2-3 months 😁


Hospitalizations jumped by 90, or around 40-something % today.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> Breaking news.......a study of 4,000 health care workers showed the vaccines were 91% effective for previous viruses but only 66% effective for the Delta variant.
> 
> They discovered that most protection is gone after 8 months or so. We need mass booster shots pronto.


It's incorrect to say 'most protection is gone after 8 months'. Those vaccinated are still at substantially lower risk of severe outcomes (hospitalization/death), though their resistance to infection decreased significantly.


----------



## damian13ster

Interior Health administers hundreds of ‘invalid doses’ of COVID-19 vaccine | Globalnews.ca


The vaccine had been administered as 15 first doses and 501 second doses in the community and Interior Health is contacting each client individually to offer another dose.




globalnews.ca


----------



## Beaver101

Law firms embrace COVID-19 vaccine mandates

This is behind a paywall but the title of the article (can post if anyone is interested) is telling of upcoming vaccine mandates.


----------



## Beaver101

Ontario chamber of commerce issues guidance for businesses on proof-of-vax protocols

This is helpful for businesses and its customers alike. Let's see how long Ontario's Premier can hold out on this issue.


----------



## Beaver101

Delta Air Lines to add $200 monthly health insurance charge for unvaccinated staff

Above article is behind a paywall but title tells of inflationary things to come for businesses in the USA ... with Canada to follow. Ho ho ho.

Air Canada mandates COVID-19 vaccination for all employees



> ...
> Workers who are not vaccinated by Oct. 30 will face termination or be sent on unpaid leave, Air Canada said. *It has also made full vaccination a condition of employment for new employees.*
> 
> However, the carrier will accommodate workers who cannot be vaccinated for reasons such as medical conditions.
> ...


 ... must have good employment lawyers to back that up.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Spudd said:


> Here's one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This study found that among Kentucky residents who were previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020, those who were unvaccinated against COVID-19 had significantly higher likelihood of reinfection during May and June 2021. This finding supports the CDC recommendation that all eligible persons be offered COVID-19 vaccination, regardless of previous SARS-CoV-2 infection status.


Thanks for that. Obviously the combo seems to be the way to go, although more difficult to obtain. Has anyone seen studies comparing:

1) Natural infection only - compared to - Fully Vaccinated only

or

2) Natural infection + Fully Vaccinated - compared to - Fully Vaccinated only.

I suspect the winner in #1 will be Fully vaccinated, mainly because with vaccination we can control the dose. My understanding is that because the vaccine is benign (not using live virus), they hit us with a really, really big dose to get the maximum immune response. If that size of dose was actual virus we would probably all be dead. With natural infection we cannot control the dose we get and it sounds like that issue is causing some people to obtain better immunity then others, after they recover from their infection.

I still feel that #2 above will be the cat's meow of protection, but it would be nice to see a study to prove it. In any case I suspect all inhabitants of earth will eventually have #2, so let's hope it turns out to be they equivalent of a bullet proof vest.


----------



## 5Lgreenback

Spudd said:


> Here's one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This study found that among Kentucky residents who were previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020, those who were unvaccinated against COVID-19 had significantly higher likelihood of reinfection during May and June 2021. This finding supports the CDC recommendation that all eligible persons be offered COVID-19 vaccination, regardless of previous SARS-CoV-2 infection status.



That study is a nonsense piece funded by the CDC using cherry picked stats and the usual deceptive methods, in order to proceed with their vax passport agenda. Many experts have torn it apart as poorly done puff piece from another agency with a revolving door for pharma execs.

Basic immunology 101 shows that natural immunity is always more broad based and robust compared to vaccination, particularly a very targeted vaccination of a no longer dominant strain. If this study were true (it isn't, there are dozens of studies show 6-12x better immunity in naturally infected) that would be the first time in history.

Not to mention global data of high vax rate places around the world continue to be getting pummelled by the delta strain. While poorer nations with lower vax rates were fairing much better, until shortly after they implemented mass vax. 

3-6 months post mass vax, case numbers start spiking, shortly followed by death rates.

This pattern is very repeatable, all around the world, yet people keep listening to the news incoherent narrative. 

Step away and look at the global data, not the narrative, its very clear whats happening.


----------



## OptsyEagle

5Lgreenback said:


> Basic immunology 101 shows that natural immunity is always more broad based and robust compared to vaccination, particularly a very targeted vaccination of a no longer dominant strain. If this study were true (it isn't, there are dozens of studies show 6-12x better immunity in naturally infected) that would be the first time in history.


But that study did not measure whether natural immunity was better then vaccinated immunity. It measured natural immunity PLUS vaccination and compared it to natural immunity alone.

Of course, both (infection + vaccination) would be better then infection alone, if for no other reason then because the vaccination provides 2 more exposures to the virus then the people got who were only infected once. That is also immunology 101.

As for natural immunity always being better then vaccination, please support that. I agree that quite a few times it would be the case but I can also see many ways that it would be inferior. The most important question here is not which one, natural infection or vaccination is the best, but is either good enough? That is all that matters. I suspect for most people either would probably protect them just fine but I do worry that some of the asymptomatically infected may not have acquired a big enough dose of the virus to produce enough of an immune response that would protect them when they do get an oversized exposure dose in the future.

As always there is still more to be studied. That said, vaccination is free, it is available, and it is protective. So you might as well add it to your protective shield, previously infected or not.


----------



## gibor365

*COVID booster shots raise protection against severe illness to 97%*









COVID booster shots raise protection against severe illness to 97% — TV


More than 10,000 daily cases recorded as infections spike in Haredi communities, where schools opened up two weeks ago




www.timesofisrael.com





Israeli healthcare provider Maccabi, which covers about a quarter of the population, reported on Wednesday that a third Pfizer dose was 86% effective at preventing Covid-19 infection in people over 60.
Mr Zarka also noted that no-one who was currently in a critical condition in hospital had received a booster shot.








Israel extends Covid restrictions to three-year-olds as cases surge


Young children must show proof of a negative test to enter many indoor spaces, as infections surge.



www.bbc.com





So, why Canada aren'r sure about booster shot?! Obviouslly.... we have our famous "Canadian experts" LOL
_Although the U.S. will soon offer COVID-19 vaccine booster shots to the general population, *Canadian experts aren’t sure that Canada should follow suit.*_


----------



## Money172375

gibor365 said:


> *COVID booster shots raise protection against severe illness to 97%*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID booster shots raise protection against severe illness to 97% — TV
> 
> 
> More than 10,000 daily cases recorded as infections spike in Haredi communities, where schools opened up two weeks ago
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israeli healthcare provider Maccabi, which covers about a quarter of the population, reported on Wednesday that a third Pfizer dose was 86% effective at preventing Covid-19 infection in people over 60.
> Mr Zarka also noted that no-one who was currently in a critical condition in hospital had received a booster shot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel extends Covid restrictions to three-year-olds as cases surge
> 
> 
> Young children must show proof of a negative test to enter many indoor spaces, as infections surge.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, why Canada aren'r sure about booster shot?! Obviouslly.... we have our famous "Canadian experts" LOL
> _Although the U.S. will soon offer COVID-19 vaccine booster shots to the general population, *Canadian experts aren’t sure that Canada should follow suit.*_


Ontario is doing it for high risk individuals…..very soon.


----------



## Money172375

Are there any discussions or news stories about “new and improved“ vaccines? I assume all the major producers are trying new concoctions.


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> ... your name got pulled in by OE into his post above to support his touting of that "Dr. John" Youtube methodology .. you know, be brave, expose yourself (especially the vaccinateds) to Covid instead of being "fearful", alleging others of "fear mongering" here. And then you can move on with your life. That's why I said, him first to try it out if he so much believes in it ... with the "and/*or*" you too. [For some reason, I'm hearing an echo of that Dump's speech here.]
> 
> ... don't know what disease that you to antibodies here for. Presuming you're talking about Covid - and you "survived". Your luck. But also keep in mind you got the early variant. Do you have antibodies for the Delta?
> 
> ... the vaccine wasn't as nice to you as someone else. I got both shots and had no side effects other than a sore arm. I didn't even feel the jab and wondered if I was given saline instead with the no side effects. Ie. consider those side effects did its job for you.


I have talked to numerous friends and people about side effects. Nothing has come up other then a sore arm or a slight headache that was gone in the morning.. I have had zero side effects. If a third shot was available I wouldn't hesitate for a second. I can guarantee you a severe case of cvid will have many severe consequences.


----------



## Eder

I'm pretty sure that any of us that had our vaccine in the USA last winter can go get a booster shot in Canada anytime.


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## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> COVID booster shots raise *protection* against severe illness to 97%


For another three months or longer? 😆


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> For another three months or longer? 😆


dude, I don’t care if it’s for 3 months, for 2 or for 6! Just lift restrictions and let us live! I don’t care if with vaccines or without them... 
maybe Pfizer will invent some pill , I already take on daily basis blood pressure and cholesterol pills, so add a Covid one 😁


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> I have talked to numerous friends and people about side effects. Nothing has come up other then a sore arm or a slight headache that was gone in the morning.. I have had zero side effects. If a third shot was available I wouldn't hesitate for a second. I can guarantee you a severe case of cvid will have many severe consequences.


About half the people I know who got 2 Pfizer got sick. Like call in from work the next day, even if they were working from home. My Pfizer 2nd shot was just fine, but my AZ first shot made me very sick for a day.
Most people reported headaches, muscle soreness, some fevers etc.

I'm planning to get my third shot as soon as it's available.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Alberta and Saskatchewan say they are not planning to follow broad mask mandates announced this week by neighbouring western provinces.

Manitoba and British Columbia are reintroducing mask rules to arrest a rise in COVID-19 case numbers.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> Just lift restrictions and let us live!


Perhaps reside in the wrong province.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Perhaps reside in the wrong province.


I’d move to AB .... after separation 😁


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> About half the people I know who got 2 Pfizer got sick. Like call in from work the next day, even if they were working from home. My Pfizer 2nd shot was just fine, but my AZ first shot made me very sick for a day.
> Most people reported headaches, muscle soreness, some fevers etc.
> 
> I'm planning to get my third shot as soon as it's available.


I didn’t have any side effects from Pfizer. Would get 3rd shot too if available, but after at least 4 months after 2nd one


----------



## zinfit

Eder said:


> I'm pretty sure that any of us that had our vaccine in the USA last winter can go get a booster shot in Canada anytime.


unless you registered that with the provincial health agency you are correct


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Saskatchewan Health Minister Paul Merriman says there are signs the province is entering its fourth wave of the COVID-19 pandemic, but that the provincial government is not prepared to mandate vaccinations.

Doing so would infringe on "people's personal rights," Merriman said in a news conference at the legislative assembly on Wednesday, following pressure from the Opposition to mandate vaccines among some groups, including health-care workers. 

"I don't know why it has to be a government mandate," Merriman said. "If it's government mandated, it changes the factor of the government telling you what to do versus you making a choice to go get it. If people don't want to get vaccinated, that's their choice."

Merriman said there's a small percentage of people that "just will not get vaccinated" and that incentives used in other provinces haven't been shown to improve vaccination numbers. Instead, the province has recently hosted vaccine clinics at Saskatchewan Roughrider games and festivals, he said. 

"I think everybody should go and get vaccinated. I mean, that's the end of the story really for me, is people need to go and get vaccinated."

Those refusing to do so are not making an informed choice, he said.


----------



## gibor365

I don't get why out "health experts" and "people's servants" aren't allowing to seniors 75+ (who got their vaccones in winter) to get booster shot, hence everyone who wanted 1st or 2nd shots already got it


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Was your Moderna shot examined for contamination?
*Japan suspends use of 1.63 million doses of Moderna’s COVID-19 vaccine after contamination reports








Japan suspends use of 1.63 million doses of Moderna’s COVID-19 vaccine after contamination reports


Both Japan and Moderna said no safety or efficacy issues had been identified and the suspension was just a precaution, but the move prompted several Japanese companies to cancel worker vaccinations




www.theglobeandmail.com




*


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> About half the people I know who got 2 Pfizer got sick. Like call in from work the next day, even if they were working from home. My Pfizer 2nd shot was just fine, but my AZ first shot made me very sick for a day.
> Most people reported headaches, muscle soreness, some fevers etc.
> 
> I'm planning to get my third shot as soon as it's available.


I had Pfizer first and Moderna second. I had to call in sick (even for WFH) for 2-3 days after second dose. I did take some calls but I felt _terrible. _With Covid, work has been an endless stream of 'crises' that need immediate attention, barely being able to think straight and articulate thoughts due to pounding headache or not!


----------



## Beaver101

Why medical exemptions for COVID-19 vaccines might be hard to obtain


----------



## Beaver101

Appointments for jabs have skyrocketed. Is B.C. proving that vaccine passports are the answer?

Should this be suprising? Where's Doug hiding?


----------



## damian13ster

No, it isn't surprising.
Even more effective method would be breaking into people's homes, holding them down, and forcefully vaccinating!
That would make amount of jabs skyrocket even more!


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> Appointments for jabs have skyrocketed. Is B.C. proving that vaccine passports are the answer?
> 
> Should this be suprising? Where's Doug hiding?


Doug is keeping his head down to stay out of the Federal election that some idiot called during the 4th wave of the pandemic.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> No, it isn't surprising.
> Even more effective method would be breaking into people's homes, holding them down, and forcefully vaccinating!
> That would make amount of jabs skyrocket even more!


 .... now now now ... you're practising dictatorship here.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Doug is keeping his head down to stay out of the Federal election that some idiot called during the 4th wave of the pandemic.


 ... that and/or the need to meet up with Randy.


----------



## MrMatt

The thing I don't understand is, given the vaccine isn't able to stop the spread of COVID19, why is the government saying it will?
Where are the COVID19 disinformation censors?


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## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> The thing I don't understand is, given the vaccine isn't able to stop the spread of COVID19, why is the government saying it will?
> Where are the COVID19 disinformation censors?


 ...remember, it's a free speech society which works both ways, including lying. Anyhow, can't recall government specifically saying it'll "stop" the spread. It'll slow it down (or reduce it) to the extent of preventing hospitalisations/ICU admissions.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> The thing I don't understand is, given the vaccine isn't able to stop the spread of COVID19, why is the government saying it will?
> Where are the COVID19 disinformation censors?


The vaccines were not developed for the Delta variant. We are just fortunate that they offer any protection at all from the new virus.

The state of the world is constantly evolving due to the changing nature of the virus. It isn't surprising that advice from the past no longer applies.

Your question is like asking why the smallpox vaccine doesn't stop infection from malaria.


----------



## kcowan

All the latest restrictions are to protect the unvaccinated. Keep them out of ICU to leave ICU available for the other sick.


----------



## gibor365

What Canada is waiting for?!

“The rate (in Israel) of new COVID-19 patients being hospitalized in serious condition has slowed significantly as a result of the booster vaccine, experts said on Friday, anticipating that the current outbreak has been curbed.
Researchers from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem said in a Friday report that Israel’s drive to administer widespread third COVID-19 vaccine shots had caused the change of trend, along with some reimposed restrictions. They added that in the coming days, the number of daily infections was similarly expected to start slowing down.

The government launched its latest vaccination campaign earlier this month, urging Israelis over 60 (since lowered to over 30) to get their third dose of the vaccine — known as a booster shot — which officials hope will help protect Israel’s most vulnerable from the highly contagious Delta variant of the SARS-CoV-2 virus that causes COVID-19.

“The current virus wave has been curbed thanks to a combination of the booster drive and soft restrictions,” the report said.

As of Friday morning, 1,872,056 Israelis had been given the third dose.”








Experts say current COVID outbreak being curbed thanks to booster vaccines


Hebrew University researchers say serious cases on the decline, but expect daily cases to slightly rise again as school year opens




www.google.ca


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> The thing I don't understand is, given the vaccine isn't able to stop the spread of COVID19, why is the government saying it will?
> Where are the COVID19 disinformation censors?


The vaccine's cannot stop the spread 100% but they reduce it significantly and they keep people out of the hospitals significantly and most importantly we have no other serious defense, that works nearly as well.

Time to get vaccinated and then face the virus that certainly plans to face us. We don't have time for much else. If we can get more people to protect themselves with the vaccine all the better but we are running out of time. The colder weather will be upon us in about 5 weeks and then the unvaccinated are about to see how severe this new variant really is, and because it is so infectious, many of them will find out very quickly.

The only good news with this is that the survivors, and most of course will survive, will finally have their equivalent of vaccination and stop being a PITA to our healthcare system.


----------



## like_to_retire

Ontario to institute vaccine passport system.

_Ontario will announce a form of proof-of-vaccine certification — commonly known as a "vaccine passport" — for the province, sources tell CBC News. The plan is expected to be revealed early next week._

ltr


----------



## cainvest

like_to_retire said:


> Ontario to institute vaccine passport system.
> 
> _Ontario will announce a form of proof-of-vaccine certification — commonly known as a "vaccine passport" — for the province, sources tell CBC News. The plan is expected to be revealed early next week._


I'm sure Onartio will be watching Manitoba as our segregated society starts on Sept 3rd.


----------



## gibor365

like_to_retire said:


> Ontario to institute vaccine passport system.
> 
> _Ontario will announce a form of proof-of-vaccine certification — commonly known as a "vaccine passport" — for the province, sources tell CBC News. The plan is expected to be revealed early next week._
> 
> ltr


What a bunch of idiots! Only day or two ago they said that this is not an option 🤣


----------



## kcowan

That was before the Trudeau bribe with our money!


----------



## damian13ster

gibor365 said:


> What a bunch of idiots! Only day or two ago they said that this is not an option 🤣


Trudeau also said it isn't an option couple months ago.
Politicians lie.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> The vaccine's cannot stop the spread 100% but they reduce it significantly and they keep people out of the hospitals significantly and most importantly we have no other serious defense, that works nearly as well.
> 
> Time to get vaccinated and then face the virus that certainly plans to face us. We don't have time for much else. If we can get more people to protect themselves with the vaccine all the better but we are running out of time. The colder weather will be upon us in about 5 weeks and then the unvaccinated are about to see how severe this new variant really is, and because it is so infectious, many of them will find out very quickly.
> 
> The only good news with this is that the survivors, and most of course will survive, will finally have their equivalent of vaccination and stop being a PITA to our healthcare system.


Yes, I agree, we should all get vaccinated, and it is helping.

However the message that the "experts" are pushing, like the Prime Minister, and my local health unit is simply not true.
Just being vaccinated won't be enough to get things back to the old "normal". By continuously lying to the Canadian people, they are destroying their credibility.

I put this squarely on the shoulders of PM Trudeau, he's the PM, he should set the example. But instead he's been lying to Canadians throughout this entire pandemic. The damage he's done to the public trust is by far the worst of his legacy.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> Yes, I agree, we should all get vaccinated, and it is helping.
> 
> However the message that the "experts" are pushing, like the Prime Minister, and my local health unit is simply not true.
> Just being vaccinated won't be enough to get things back to the old "normal". By continuously lying to the Canadian people, they are destroying their credibility.
> 
> I put this squarely on the shoulders of PM Trudeau, he's the PM, he should set the example. But instead he's been lying to Canadians throughout this entire pandemic. The damage he's done to the public trust is by far the worst of his legacy.


Lying is in Trudeau blood!


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> Yes, I agree, we should all get vaccinated, and it is helping.
> 
> However the message that the "experts" are pushing, like the Prime Minister, and my local health unit is simply not true.
> Just being vaccinated won't be enough to get things back to the old "normal". By continuously lying to the Canadian people, they are destroying their credibility.
> 
> I put this squarely on the shoulders of PM Trudeau, he's the PM, he should set the example. But instead he's been lying to Canadians throughout this entire pandemic. The damage he's done to the public trust is by far the worst of his legacy.


*Well, vaccination is the first step in getting things back to normal.* It can be done without the vaccine but it would end in a much larger amount of death and sickness, and of course take longer because that death and sickness would require many temporary lockdowns to ease the strain on our hospitals.

If anyone is curious, this is how the pandemic will end, at least in Canada. Enough of our citizens will have been exposed to the virus, enough times, that most future exposures do not end in such severe illness that would require hospitalization. Covid will never be over where that number (hospitalizations) will be reduced to zero but I suspect we will be where we need to be by around 2022, for enough of the population to reduce the probability of overwhelming our hospitals anymore to a very low and acceptable probability. That is how these pandemics end.

*From what I have seen I believe the Delta variant can truly be our pandemic ender.* It is so crazy infectious, combined with high vaccination rates (increasing their socializing) that enough of our unvaccinated should be naturally inoculated probably sometime in 2022 (a large number of those will be dead from that, as well, because they did not protect themselves with the vaccine). Add to that group, a considerable number of vaccinated people getting exposed as well, where vaccination alone was not sufficient enough, for them, to protect them from some of the very high dose exposures that are out there, and our covid pandemic has just been changed to what would look like just another flu season.

I will point out, since we are all going to get a natural inoculation some day, whether we like it or not, that *you attempt to pick your place for the first one,* as opposed to just letting it happen. In other words, outdoors and short time intervals indoors without a mask, is going to be much safer for this first exposure, then just to wait, for example, until your Granddaughter's unvaccinated boyfriend comes over for Christmas dinner, with a funny looking smile and a boat load of Delta covid-19. You will probably still live, if vaccinated, but I suspect you may feel that to be in jeopardy a few times over the few days it will take for you recover from the experience...even vaccinated.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> *Well, vaccination is the first step in getting things back to normal.*


Nope
it helps, but so does washing our hands.
It is clear that the experts who said that Coronaviruses mutate too fast and an effective vaccine would be difficult or impossible were right.

The reality is that the perception of Coronaviruses will change.

It is now obvious that some strains of Coronaviruses can cause a pandemic, just like some Flu strains.

We won't be back to normal for a LONG time, and the vaccine isn't enough.
All the people saying "just get vaccinated" are lying, they know they're lying. It's disgusting, and it destroys trust in our government institutions.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Nope
> it helps, but so does washing our hands.
> It is clear that the experts who said that Coronaviruses mutate too fast and an effective vaccine would be difficult or impossible were right.
> 
> The reality is that the perception of Coronaviruses will change.
> 
> It is now obvious that some strains of Coronaviruses can cause a pandemic, just like some Flu strains.
> 
> We won't be back to normal for a LONG time, and the vaccine isn't enough.
> *All the people saying "just get vaccinated" are lying, they know they're lying. It's disgusting, and it destroys trust in our government institutions.*


 ... I would have agreed with your entire post until the last part (bolded). I think with your intelligence (and a dose of honesty), you can better spin it with the "just get vaccinated" so "that you don't land in the hospital/ICU and overwhelm our health systems." instead of blatantly stating what you said (bolded). Because even the vaccine producers did not guarantee their vaccines 100% efficacy, let alone being a silver bullet. This now begs one to wonder who is lying.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... I would have agreed with your entire post until the last part (bolded). I think with your intelligence (and a dose of honesty), you can better spin it with the "just get vaccinated" so "that you don't land in the hospital/ICU and overwhelm our health systems." instead of blatantly stating what you said (bolded). Because even the vaccine producers did not guarantee their vaccines 100% efficacy, let alone being a silver bullet. This now begs one to wonder who is lying.


No those who are saying things that suggest "vaccinate == get back to normal" are lying, they know they're lying.

The anti-vaxxers are getting frustrated at being lied to for over a year.
The X weeks to flatten the curve, was fine, it was an emergency, we didn't know much etc.
But since then it's been a comedy of extensions, promises, human rights violations, misinformation etc.
That's the problem

AZ is pretty safe, the governments banned it. mRNA has serious side effects, they're trying to hide them. They barely even disclose side effects when you get the 2nd shot.

My issue isn't with what they're actually doing, I still think almost everyone should be getting vaccinated.

I am just concerned with the near constant mistakes, and errors they're making that are making things worse.
You have to understand every time the government makes a proclamation, and they're wrong, a few people change their mind. And the government has been making known false statements for over a year. Their lies are resulting in tens or hundreds of thousands, possibly millions shifting away from the policies that would help things get better.

When someone says "There is a small risk of blood clots with a vaccine", and the government buries it, until public pressure breaks through, that CREATES more anti-vaxxers. That's my problem. The government is prolonging this pandemic with at best poorly thought out messaging, and at worst blatant lies.


----------



## MrMatt

And just to be clear, I have several family members that are legally prohibited from getting the vaccine. And many more who are at elevated risk. I know many people who have lost family. I take this very seriously.

The government failures and lies put them at further risk are unacceptable.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> No those who are saying things *that suggest "vaccinate == get back to normal" are lying, *they know they're lying.


 ... now this is different/clearer. Then my question to you is "what do you expect them to say?" Would you (the public) prefer to hear "the vaccine ain't gonna to put us back to normal" instead? Or "we'll have to wait and see how the vaccine goes?" Or simply "we don't know? we dont know what's gonna to happen, even with vaccination." And now "stop asking questions" Would you want/prefer them to say these things to the public?



> The anti-vaxxers are getting frustrated at being lied to for over a year.


 ... sorry but "anti-vaxxers" mindset has always been "we're being lied to". So what's the problem there?



> The X weeks to flatten the curve, was fine, it was an emergency, we didn't know much etc.
> But since then it's been a comedy of extensions, promises, human rights violations, misinformation etc.
> That's the problem


 ... you do realize there's no textbook for this pandemic (or any for that matter). It's real life.



> AZ is pretty safe, the governments banned it. mRNA has serious side effects, they're trying to hide them. They barely even disclose side effects when you get the 2nd shot.


 ... I'm not sure if you're aware of this but all the vaccines were "approved" under an "Emergency Act" (sic). They didn't go through the "traditional" years and years of multiple testings, trials, etc.. Recall the Warp Speed project. So of course, they can't disclose those "unknown" side-effects (for the few as unfortunate.)



> My issue isn't with what they're actually doing, I still think almost everyone should be getting vaccinated.
> 
> I am just concerned with the near constant mistakes, and errors they're making that are making things worse.
> You have to understand every time the government makes a proclamation, and they're wrong, a few people change their mind. And the government has been making known false statements for over a year. Their lies are resulting in tens or hundreds of thousands, possibly millions shifting away from the policies that would help things get better.


 ... trust me, if you think these are "mistakes" (based on your view), they aren't gonna to be the last. At least they're not "major" mistakes.



> When someone says "There is a small risk of blood clots with a vaccine", and the government buries it, until public pressure breaks through, that CREATES more anti-vaxxers. That's my problem. The government is prolonging this pandemic with at best poorly thought out messaging, and at worst blatant lies.


 - see above comment re anti-vaxxers. They have already made up their mind (the hardcore ones with no legitimate medical reasons). So I don't believe there'll be more anti-vaxxers in the coming months, the contrary.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> And just to be clear, I have several family members that are legally prohibited from getting the vaccine. And many more who are at elevated risk. I know many people who have lost family. I take this very seriously.


 ... you're aware accommodations will be made for those who cannot medically take the vaccine. Same here on lost lives ... from Covid and the effects (stress, etc.) from it.



> The government failures and lies put them at further risk are unacceptable.


 ... then do you want to fill Doug shoes (for Ontario)? As for the Feds, I would give them 50% (passing) grade overall. However, for specific dept's, D- starting with the vaccine procurement one, regardless of Junior's praise there.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> Nope
> it helps, but so does washing our hands.
> It is clear that the experts who said that Coronaviruses mutate too fast and an effective vaccine would be difficult or impossible were right.
> 
> The reality is that the perception of Coronaviruses will change.
> 
> It is now obvious that some strains of Coronaviruses can cause a pandemic, just like some Flu strains.
> 
> We won't be back to normal for a LONG time, and the vaccine isn't enough.
> All the people saying "just get vaccinated" are lying, they know they're lying. It's disgusting, and it destroys trust in our government institutions.


You are misinterpreting what the vaccine will do in the quest to end this pandemic. It does not need to stop transmission 100% or even protect people from getting sick 100%. It only needs to make us safe enough so we can face the virus. Facing the virus, getting more and more exposure, is what will strengthen our immune systems so that the danger of this virus drops to acceptable levels in the future.

The vaccine does that and it is all it really needs to do.

For the ones who cannot vaccinate or the vaccine does not work well for them, I agree it is a difficult situation, but the more the others around them become exposed and consequently more immune to this virus, the higher their protection will be. The best place to obtain your infection will almost always be from a vaccinated person, if you can get one from them at all.

Anyway, I have explained how this will end. There is nothing that is going to change the outcomes too much. More vaccination will help reduce the carnage. Reducing restrictions and precautions will decrease the time to get there but will put forward the ensuing carnage over a shorter period of time. It will look like it is worse but it is really just the same amount of carnage over a shorter period of time. So the peaks, in carnage, will be higher.


----------



## kcowan

MrMatt said:


> And just to be clear, I have several family members that are legally prohibited from getting the vaccine. And many more who are at elevated risk. I know many people who have lost family. I take this very seriously.
> 
> The government failures and lies put them at further risk are unacceptable.


Yes at first I thought it was ignorance of the science but now I beleive it is intentional.


> found an average decline in vaccine efficacy of 6% every two months. Researchers have said that trials to evaluate the efficacy of booster trials after a longer interval are under way. A booster vaccine in England is expected to be rolled out to the people most vulnerable to covid-19 from September.2











Covid-19: Pfizer vaccine’s efficacy declined from 96% to 84% four months after second dose, company reports


The Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine’s efficacy against SARS-CoV-2 peaked at 96.2% at seven days to two months after the second dose and then declined to 83.7% at four months, a preprint from Pfizer has reported.1 The preprint, which contains the latest data from the original clinical trial, found an...




www.bmj.com




So if you started out at 92% in April, you are at 80% today. If 70% of the population has been vaccinated, 14% of them can catch Covid by now. The only solution is wearing masks to prevent the spread. And it is getting worse with every month that passes. 14% is better than 30% but it is not a sliver bullet.


----------



## OptsyEagle

and by the way, if you look closely at that study that told us that the vaccine effectiveness decreased between early May and the end of July, by about 10% to 12%, you can't help but wonder if what they were actually measuring was not a decrease in vaccine duration but actually an increase in the delta variant become the more dominant strain. Those dates coincided with each other. It was almost precisely between May and July that the Delta strain was taking over.

So, to understand this, we know the vaccine effectiveness is not as high with Delta, as with other strains, if for no other reason then Sags being courteous enough to remind us of that, on a very regular basis. lol. If what was happening, in that study, was more and more of those people were being infected by delta instead of the other variants, and they would have been, then that would also explain the decreased effectiveness as well.

In other words, there may not be any decrease in effectiveness, solely from passage of time after vaccination. I hope that makes sense to everyone.


----------



## gibor365

kcowan said:


> Yes at first I thought it was ignorance of the science but now I beleive it is intentional.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19: Pfizer vaccine’s efficacy declined from 96% to 84% four months after second dose, company reports
> 
> 
> The Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine’s efficacy against SARS-CoV-2 peaked at 96.2% at seven days to two months after the second dose and then declined to 83.7% at four months, a preprint from Pfizer has reported.1 The preprint, which contains the latest data from the original clinical trial, found an...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bmj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if you started out at 92% in April, you are at 80% today. If 70% of the population has been vaccinated, 14% of them can catch Covid by now. The only solution is wearing masks to prevent the spread. And it is getting worse with every month that passes. 14% is better than 30% but it is not a sliver bullet.


This is why smart countries administer booster 4+ months after 2nd jab


----------



## sags

Masks, social distancing, vaccination, restrictions, and lockdowns............all hands are needed on deck to defeat the virus. 

We have booster shots and should be using them immediately. All we are doing with this virus is buying time for the scientists.


----------



## sags

The last thing we want is total lock downs and the need for new CERB type spending, but if we don't smarten up now.......that is where we are heading.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> You are misinterpreting what the vaccine will do in the quest to end this pandemic.


No *I *am not.
The government messaging is misrepresenting what the vaccine will do to end this pandemic.



> It does not need to stop transmission 100% or even protect people from getting sick 100%. It only needs to make us safe enough so we can face the virus.


yes, abo



> The vaccine does that and it is all it really needs to do.


Not well enough, and they know it doesn't do it well enough.
The vaccine has falsely been touted as the silver bullet that will end this.
It isn't, and it won't.

That's the disinformation being pushed by the government.
The vaccines we have today aren't enough to end the spread of COVID19.
We know that now, it's irrefutable.
Informed experts have known, from the beginning, that it is unlikely a vaccine would be able to end the pandemic.


----------



## andrewf

OptsyEagle said:


> *From what I have seen I believe the Delta variant can truly be our pandemic ender.* It is so crazy infectious, combined with high vaccination rates (increasing their socializing) that enough of our unvaccinated should be naturally inoculated probably sometime in 2022 (a large number of those will be dead from that, as well, because they did not protect themselves with the vaccine). Add to that group, a considerable number of vaccinated people getting exposed as well, where vaccination alone was not sufficient enough, for them, to protect them from some of the very high dose exposures that are out there, and our covid pandemic has just been changed to what would look like just another flu season.


I think we will make it not to normal, but the new normal in 2022. Agreed on that. This fall/winter will still be risky for our health care system. And yes, most of us will be exposed to covid. We had a chance of stamping out covid pre-delta with vaccination that made 90%+ immune to infection. With delta having an R0 of up to 9 means we would need much better vaccines to eliminate covid.

By your logic, we should be inoculating vaccinated individuals with a controlled dose of live virus. I don't see anyone advocating that idea.


----------



## OptsyEagle

andrewf said:


> By your logic, we should be inoculating vaccinated individuals with a controlled dose of live virus. I don't see anyone advocating that idea.


It's not an idea but more closer to a fact. I don't expect anyone to come out and suggest it, since there is no way to be certain it is safe to do, and that seems to be what our citizens demand or they will do nothing. What I am saying is that since this new variant cannot be stopped, it would make sense to do what one can to make their first exposure happen in a more safer setting. I am not necessarily advocating running over to someone's house, who has a confirmed case of covid. I am just saying that maintaining social distancing when outside or maintaining mask wearing when the time exposure will be relatively short, is just avoiding a possible safer infection, that could have helped you when you do come in contact with one of the more dangerous ones later. It also allows you to go on with your life, in those safer settings, and by omission, points out where the more dangerous ones will be, that do require a little more caution.

Not all infections were or are the same, although way to many people seem to think they are. Not sure why. They certainly did not get that from me.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> I think we will make it not to normal, but the new normal in 2022. Agreed on that. This fall/winter will still be risky for our health care system. And yes, most of us will be exposed to covid. We had a chance of stamping out covid pre-delta with vaccination that made 90%+ immune to infection. With delta having an R0 of up to 9 means we would need much better vaccines to eliminate covid.
> 
> By your logic, we should be inoculating vaccinated individuals with a controlled dose of live virus. I don't see anyone advocating that idea.


We need better vaccines and renewed interest in measures.
But I can say people are done with this, it's been over a year, we have our vaccine, they promised it would be over.
So people are saying [email protected][email protected] it, "I've had enough", they said it would be over, if we get sick, it's their fault, I've done everything they asked for over a year.

At least that's the attitude I'm seeing among normal people.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> It's not an idea it is more of a fact.


No it's an idea.
It isn't a fact.

Better controls and better vaccines can beat this. It's just not as easy as the idiots said it would be.



> I don't expect anyone to come out and suggest it, since there is no way to be certain it is safe to do, and that seems to be what our citizens demand or they do nothing. What I am saying is that since this new variant cannot be stopped, it would make sense to do what one can to make their first exposure happen in a more safer setting.


That would be a vaccine. A vaccine is the "safer setting"
Live virus vaccines, particularly with a virus that we don't understand, are very dangerous.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> No it's an idea.
> It isn't a fact.
> 
> Better controls and better vaccines can beat this. It's just not as easy as the idiots said it would be.
> 
> 
> That would be a vaccine. A vaccine is the "safer setting"
> Live virus vaccines, particularly with a virus that we don't understand, are very dangerous.


How long do you think we actually have for these "other people" to invent this miracle vaccine that does everything you want? Keep in mind many of our businesses are teetering on bankruptcy, our children are not getting any smarter, and our citizens are mostly fed up. Add to that a virus that is as infectious as chicken pox and I can assure you that what you are asking for is a pipe dream.

Our time is up. It is go time people. I am not the person that invented this situation but it appears I am one of the lone messengers of it. Why it is not easier for everyone to see, is simply beyond my comprehension. Just open your eyes.

India had 850 million infections in about 3 to 5 months. That is an insane infection rate. I am telling you this virus is coming to a home near you very soon. I suggest you prepare for that meeting.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> No it's an idea.
> It isn't a fact.
> 
> Better controls and better vaccines can beat this. It's just not as easy as the idiots said it would be.
> 
> 
> That would be a vaccine. A vaccine is the "safer setting"
> *Live virus vaccines, particularly with a virus that we don't understand, are very dangerous.*


 ... and yet the forum's virus expert wants us to be "exposed to the real thing", in a "safer settting (whatever the hell that means)." Why do we need a vaccine for in the first place? I'm beginning to see stars from that hallucination.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> We need better vaccines and renewed interest in measures.
> But I can say people are done with this, it's been over a year, we have our vaccine, they promised it would be over.
> So people are saying [email protected][email protected] it, "I've had enough", they said it would be over, if we get sick, it's their fault, I've done everything they asked for over a year.
> 
> At least that's the attitude I'm seeing among normal people.


People would have lost their minds if you told them in April 2020 that we would still be masking/distancing/etc. 18 months later. I don't blame officials for slow-walking the illustration of what pandemics look like. I recall the odd independent epidemiologist last spring saying that there will be multiple waves and we have to prepare ourselves for that. Then I heard people saying that they expected us to be back to normal in a couple of months. I think those people would have had a much harder time coming to terms with the reality of a pandemic had we laid it out honestly up front. The first few weeks were very hard for some people, and after a bit of adaptation many people figured out how to cope with the change in lifestyle, to the point where a longer slog was not so daunting.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> How long do you think we actually have for these "other people" to invent this miracle vaccine that does everything you want? Keep in mind many of our businesses are teetering on bankruptcy, our children are not getting any smarter, and our citizens are mostly fed up. Add to that a virus that is as infectious as chicken pox and I can assure you that what you are asking for is a pipe dream.


I want a magical miracle vaccine, sure. I also want a flying unicorn that farts rainbows. I'm not sure which is more likely.

But what I really want is the government to stop lying and saying we have one. We don't.
I want the government to treat us like grown ups, tell us the truth and move forward.

The lies and false promises from our health experts is what needs to stop.
Remember, the same government that wants to censor and ban COVID19 disinformation is themselves spreading disinformation. This is a very big problem. Bigger than COVID.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> People would have lost their minds if you told them in April 2020 that we would still be masking/distancing/etc. 18 months later. I don't blame them for slow-walking the illustration of what pandemics look like. I recall the odd epidemiologist last spring saying that there will be multiple waves and we have to prepare ourselves for that. Then I heard people saying that they expected us to be back to normal in a couple of months*. I think those people would have had a much harder time coming to terms with the reality of a pandemic had we laid it out honestly up front.* The first few weeks were very hard for some people, and after a bit of adaptation many people figured out how to cope with the change in lifestyle, to the point where a longer slog was not so daunting.


I agree, but lying to the people, because they're too dumb to accept reality is wrong, and in a democracy it's even worse.
They should have developed a responsible plan to explain this.


----------



## andrewf

I agree that we should not have lied. I think the messaging on masks was not sufficiently transparent, even if they legitimately believed that untrained mask wearing was ineffective. If their real motivation was to protect supply for medical staff, they could have been honest about it and told everyone else to make cloth masks. Some idiots would have hoarded in that situation.

But, there are lies of omission, which are more forgivable.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> I want the government to treat us like grown ups, tell us the truth and move forward.


When all of our adult society act like intelligent grown ups maybe they could do that. You'll get better odds of a flying unicorn that farts rainbows before that happens.


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> Trending examples ...
> ...
> 
> MPP Rick Nicholls booted from Ontario PC caucus after refusing to get COVID-19 vaccine ... a sucker.


 ... imagine being represented by an "MPP" who calls his constituents "sheep" because he chooses not to get vaccinated for "personal" (not medical) reasons. I didn't know residents of Chatham-Kent-Leamington are known as "sheep" people of Ontario?

MPP who refuses to be vaccinated against COVID-19 says he won’t seek re-election


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> I agree that we should not have lied. *I think the messaging on masks was not sufficiently transparent, even if they legitimately believed that untrained mask wearing was ineffective. If their real motivation was to protect supply for medical staff, they could have been honest about it and told everyone else to make cloth mask*s. Some idiots would have hoarded in that situation.
> 
> But, there are lies of omission, which are more forgivable.


 ... this I would agree. Dr. Tam could have done a better job with that message on masks but then she's under Junior's jurisdiction. 

And speaking of "better" communications from that department, I think we'll be getting "less of any" communications, if I'm not mistaken from a news headline I saw yesterday.


----------



## gibor365

*U.S. health officials recommending all Americans get COVID-19 booster shots*
*Social Sharing*




https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-19-booster-recommendation-1.6144867


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I want a magical miracle vaccine, sure. I also want a flying unicorn that farts rainbows. I'm not sure which is more likely.
> 
> But what I really want is the government to stop lying and saying we have one. We don't.
> I want the government to treat us like grown ups, tell us the truth and move forward.
> 
> The lies and false promises from our health experts is what needs to stop.
> Remember, the same government that wants to censor and ban COVID19 disinformation is themselves spreading disinformation. This is a very big problem. Bigger than COVID.


 ... as someone who was/is bothered by "disinformation" from the government, I think this should further interest you (if not, as a concerning parent):

What’s the role of teachers in discussing vaccines in class? Ontario educator’s vaccine misinformation case may shed light

Imagine, sending your kids to school only to be told by your pet teacher, the pandemic is a hoax.  Worst message is mom & dad punishing you with all those restrictions of social distancings, maskings, handwashings, the jabs, etc.

[No wonder the kids were/are having "real" mental issues with this kind of messagings. ]


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> When all of our adult society act like intelligent grown ups maybe they could do that. You'll get better odds of a flying unicorn that farts rainbows before that happens.


The idea that we're too dumb to take care of ourselves is how dictators justify their oppression of the people.

As much as I think most people are idiots, we should treat them like adults.

Also in my experience government is made up of typical people, so it's just a question of which idiot messes up your life.
The Authoritarians want THEIR idiot to mess up YOUR life, the Libertarians want YOU to mess up your OWN life.

Honestly I'd prefer to have the choice of exactly how I mess up my life.


----------



## sags

Yea.........Ford has to go.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> The idea that we're too dumb to take care of ourselves is how dictators justify their oppression of the people.
> 
> As much as I think most people are idiots, we should treat them like adults.
> 
> Also in my experience government is made up of typical people, so it's just a question of which idiot messes up your life.
> The Authoritarians want THEIR idiot to mess up YOUR life, the Libertarians want YOU to mess up your OWN life.
> 
> Honestly I'd prefer to have the choice of exactly how I mess up my life.


Welcome to the reality of our imperfect and not so unified society.
All this world needs is more armchair quarterbacks (from all sides and viewpoints) pointing fingers on social media platforms ... ya, that'll help.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Welcome to the reality of our imperfect and not so unified society.
> All this world needs is more armchair quarterbacks (from all sides and viewpoints) pointing fingers on social media platforms ... ya, that'll help.


An informed and educated populace is essential for the proper function of a democracy.
When the government spreads lies and disinformation, it's an attack on the basic tenets of democracy.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> An informed and educated populace is essential for the proper function of a democracy.


Let me know when anywhere gets an "informed and educated populace".


MrMatt said:


> When the government spreads lies and disinformation, it's an attack on the basic tenets of democracy.


Depends, is it for the good of the society? 
In any case it's just like you said ... "government is made of typical people" so you can expect them to lie.


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> Let me know when anywhere gets an "informed and educated populace".
> 
> Depends, is it for the good of the society?
> In any case it's just like you said ... "government is made of typical people" so you can expect them to lie.


Government is made of typical people.
You expect them to lie, you expect them to have ulterior motives, yet you want essentially couple people to have power to lead entire society and decide what truth is good for society and what isn't? When to lie to people to have them do something rather than tell the truth and let typical people decide?
Why do few typical people get to decide what lies are good for the society?

You prefer few typical people with ulterior motives decide for entire populace than
have people be given actual information and not lies and form an opinion based on reality and not politicians' lies?


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Let me know when anywhere gets an "informed and educated populace".
> 
> Depends, is it for the good of the society?
> In any case it's just like you said ... "government is made of typical people" so you can expect them to lie.


When you start doing bad things "for their own good", you're evil.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> When you start doing bad things "for their own good", you're evil.


So what option do you have? Find a political party that doesn't lie ... good luck to you.


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> So what option do you have? Find a political party that doesn't lie ... good luck to you.


That doesn't mean we have to be indifferent to the lies, ignore them, or even worse - excuse and justify them.


----------



## damian13ster

wrong thread.


----------



## james4beach

Here are the fully vaccinated %s of the large provinces right now:

Alberta, 58.76%
Saskatchewan, 58.85%
Manitoba, 66.29%
Ontario, 67.25%
British Columbia, 68.20%
Quebec, 68.34%

The outliers here are AB and SK. The rural population doesn't want to be vaccinated.


----------



## sags

The case numbers are rising again in Alberta and Saskatchewan, and patients are being moved around.

Doctors warn the government needs to implement restrictions..........like a month ago.

The governments aren't making themselves available to the media or public.


----------



## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> Here are the fully vaccinated %s of the large provinces right now:
> 
> Alberta, 58.76%
> Saskatchewan, 58.85%
> Manitoba, 66.29%
> Ontario, 67.25%
> British Columbia, 68.20%
> Quebec, 68.34%
> 
> The outliers here are AB and SK. The rural population doesn't want to be vaccinated.


Probably betting the farm on Ivermectin: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ivermectin-alberta-covid-1.6157200


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The case numbers are rising again in Alberta and Saskatchewan, and patients are being moved around.
> 
> Doctors warn the government needs to implement restrictions..........like a month ago.
> 
> The governments aren't making themselves available to the media or public.


Yes they should have implemented restrictions, but the best way to get Trudeau out of office is to let him run an election through the fourth wave and show have painfully incompetent he is.
His actions during this pandemic have cost thousands of lives.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> The case numbers are rising again in Alberta and Saskatchewan, and patients are being moved around.
> 
> Doctors warn the government needs to implement restrictions..........like a month ago.
> 
> The governments aren't making themselves available to the media or public.


Only 3.5% of beds are taken up by COVID patients in Alberta. They will be fine


----------



## sags

A meaningless statistic, when they don't have 3.5% extra capacity.

Fill a hospital to 100% capacity and add 1 patient.......and they don't have an open bed.

Covid patients also require a lot of extra care from doctors in different specialties, depending on the symptoms.

Covid patients take up a lot of time to "gown up" each time to enter their room. They also have to be isolated from other patients.

There is a lot more to it than the "basic math" you are so fond of.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> A meaningless statistic, when they don't have 3.5% extra capacity.
> 
> Fill a hospital to 100% capacity and add 1 patient.......and they don't have an open bed.
> 
> Covid patients also require a lot of extra care from doctors in different specialties, depending on the symptoms.
> 
> Covid patients take up a lot of time to "gown up" each time to enter their room. They also have to be isolated from other patients.
> 
> There is a lot more to it than the "basic math" you are so fond of.


They do have much more than 3.5% extra capacity
There is still 10% of free capacity, which is more than a median for entire year.

The facts and numbers simply don't fit the narrative you concocted


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> The case numbers are rising again in Alberta and Saskatchewan, and patients are being moved around.
> 
> Doctors warn the government needs to implement restrictions..........like a month ago.
> 
> The governments aren't making themselves available to the media or public.


 .. nothing better than being MIA, invisible or playing the silence game. Which sounds alot like management (at least the ones I work with). For a start, at least you don't get yelled at directly ...


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> They do have much more than 3.5% extra capacity
> There is still 10% of free capacity, which is more than a median for entire year.
> 
> The facts and numbers simply don't fit the narrative you concocted


 ... you really want to tempt that extra 10% of free capacity (according to your stats), don't you? I feel for the sensible Albertans.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... you really want to tempt that extra 10% of free capacity (according to your stats), don't you? I feel for the sensible Albertans.


Not my stats. Alberta health care stats.
And yes, locking down while there is more than average number of beds available is harmful.
Alberta also decreased amount of ICU beds in the province compared to previous waves because they weren't necessary


----------



## Spudd

Sounds like the vaccine will be available for kids 5-11 by early winter.









Pfizer director Dr. Scott Gottlieb says Covid vaccine for kids 5 to 11 could come by winter


U.S. drug regulators could clear the Pfizer vaccine for emergency use in young children in late fall or early winter this year, the former FDA chief said.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## MrMatt

Spudd said:


> Sounds like the vaccine will be available for kids 5-11 by early winter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pfizer director Dr. Scott Gottlieb says Covid vaccine for kids 5 to 11 could come by winter
> 
> 
> U.S. drug regulators could clear the Pfizer vaccine for emergency use in young children in late fall or early winter this year, the former FDA chief said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


Not in time for the fall. But hey, why worry about facts and false claims during a pandemic election on how you handled the pandemic.
I really hope this goofball goes away.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Not my stats. Alberta health care stats.
> *And yes, locking down while there is more than average number of beds available is harmful.
> Alberta also decreased amount of ICU beds in the province compared to previous waves because they weren't necessary*


 ... okay, let's see how this is gonna go for Albertans. I'm not sure why Albertans need a premier for since all is hunky dory there.


----------



## james4beach

Spudd said:


> Sounds like the vaccine will be available for kids 5-11 by early winter.


Is that safe? Are trials being conducted on this?


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> Is that safe? Are trials being conducted on this?


Since parents will be asking that exact question, I suspect they will be running trials to give some form of assurances...or there will be little take up of that vaccine, when it is offered.

My gut feeling is that the reason it is taking so long is there are two ways to run a vaccine trial. One with perhaps 40,000 participants that can be concluded in perhaps 2.5 months. The other is with less participants, but it takes a lot longer because less participants produce less infections and without infections one cannot calculate efficacy. So I suspect, since it would be difficult to find enough parents to sign up their children for experimental drug testing, that these companies are probably forced to get by with a lot less kids, then they would have preferred. Hence why we don't have the vaccines yet.


----------



## Spudd

james4beach said:


> Is that safe? Are trials being conducted on this?


Trials are being conducted and results expected to be submitted to the FDA by early September. It's in the article linked.


----------



## james4beach

Spudd said:


> Trials are being conducted and results expected to be submitted to the FDA by early September. It's in the article linked.


Sounds great.

As for adults... I have no worries about them. Several _hundred million_ people have received MRNA shots now, larger than any clinical trial.

Ontario also does a nice job tracking and reporting adverse reactions & side effects to the vaccines. This PDF document is regularly updated:
https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/epi/covid-19-aefi-report.pdf?la=en


----------



## Eder

Beaver101 said:


> ... you really want to tempt that extra 10% of free capacity (according to your stats), don't you? I feel for the sensible Albertans.


ICU's are typically nearly full Covid or no Covid. Thats how hospitals run...(at least in Alberta)


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Is that safe? Are trials being conducted on this?


Israel is vaccinating high risk kids 5+








Israel to allow some 5- to 11-year-olds to get COVID-19 vaccine


So far, 41% of people under the age of 20 have been vaccinated with at least one dose of the Pfizer vaccine.




www.google.ca


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## Eder

My latest grand daughter was vaccinated at -2 months old. At 2 weeks shes doing good...already thinks Justin is a tard so no brain damage.


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## Ukrainiandude

*Is Quebec prohibiting universities and CEGEPs from demanding proof of vaccination?*


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## Ukrainiandude

Now health officials are looking into Canadian data that suggests the risk of heart inflammation after Moderna's shot is occurring at higher rates in younger adults than previously believed. The Post quoted a source saying the *myocarditis risk could be 2.5 times higher for those who receive the Moderna vaccine over Pfizer's shot*. Males under 30 appear to be the most at risk of developing the side effect with either vaccination.


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## damian13ster

I got myositis after Moderna apparently. 
Just got through the tests, results came this mornung, because since vaccination I can't do any rapid movements without spraining a muscle  
The summer has been a torture because I was always extremely active an never had any downtime due to injury.


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## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> I got myositis after Moderna apparently.
> Just got through the tests, results came this mornung, because since vaccination I can't do any rapid movements without spraining a muscle
> The summer has been a torture because I was always extremely active an never had any downtime due to injury.


Sorry to hear that. So muscle inflammation?


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## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Sorry to hear that. So muscle inflammation?


Yes, but it's not "just muscle stiffness".
There appears to be a few cases of cardio inflamation which resulted in hospitalization, and more cases of non hospitalized general or cardio inflamation.

The thing is muscular inflamation is a pretty vague description, this can be everything from a bit of soreness, to impairment, to permanant damage. Though the data isn't as widely shared as the AZ blood clot (non issue IMO), it makes me wonder why it seems to be buried, where AZ was not. I think that there is an effort to not publicize the risks of the available vaccines, they might be small, but the lack of disclosure is concerning... of course they don't want us to think we have a choice anyway.


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## damian13ster

Yep, muscle inflammation leading to weakness and fragility. Readings on creatine kinase through the roof in blood work.
It sucks. Left shoulder and deltoid are there only for decorative purposes now.
Other core muscles and hamstrings fragile as hell. Was told it might be 4-6months before goes back to normal. Hopefully it actually does get back to normal
It sucks.


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## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Yep, muscle inflammation leading to weakness and fragility. Readings on creatine kinase through the roof in blood work.
> It sucks. Left shoulder and deltoid are there only for decorative purposes now.
> Other core muscles and hamstrings fragile as hell. Was told it might be 4-6months before goes back to normal. Hopefully it actually does get back to normal
> It sucks.


Were any of these risks disclosed to you before you got your vaccination?


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## damian13ster

Those specific ones? Don't believe so but can't say for sure.
There were side effects listed but don't think this was one of them


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## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Were any of these risks disclosed to you before you got your vaccination?


I thought that muscle soreness and general body soreness was a well-disclosed side effect and one of the most common side effects.

Several friends of mine had weeks of muscle/body soreness.


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## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I thought that muscle soreness and general body soreness was a well-disclosed side effect and one of the most common side effects.
> 
> Several friends of mine had weeks of muscle/body soreness.


Yeah, but in some cases it's long lasting, and in some cases required hospitalization.
Personally I know mRNA people who were sick for a day, and a very few who were stiff and sore for weeks. 

Sick for a few days, sure, but if it's going on for weeks, or you get hospitalized, that's a concerning side effect.


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## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Yeah, but in some cases it's long lasting, and in some cases required hospitalization.
> Personally I know mRNA people who were sick for a day, and a very few who were stiff and sore for weeks.
> 
> Sick for a few days, sure, but if it's going on for weeks, or you get hospitalized, that's a concerning side effect.


Ah, I see. You're talking about the duration. After my shot, my whole body was very stiff and sore for a day or two.

If that lasted for _weeks_, that would be a huge problem for sure.


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## Ukrainiandude

The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study. The new analysis relies on the database of Maccabi Healthcare Services, which enrolls about 2.5 million Israelis. The study, led by Tal Patalon and Sivan Gazit at KSM, the system’s research and innovation arm, found in two analyses that never-infected people who were vaccinated in January and February were, in June, July, and the first half of August, six to 13 times more likely to get infected than unvaccinated people who were previously infected with the coronavirus. In one analysis, comparing more than 32,000 people in the health system, the risk of developing symptomatic COVID-19 was 27 times higher among the vaccinated, and the risk of hospitalization eight times higher.


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## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Ah, I see. You're talking about the duration. After my shot, my whole body was very stiff and sore for a day or two.
> 
> If that lasted for _weeks_, that would be a huge problem for sure.


Or if you're hospitalized, that would be an issue.
Bit of soreness and general malaise for a day or two... that's no big deal.


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## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study


Um this isn't exactly "news". If the body is exposed to the actual virus, it recognizes the complete virus, as opposed to one or two selected protein samples (which is what the vaccination gives).

Nobody ever claimed that vaccination trains your immune system as well as the real virus. The claim was that vaccination prepares your immune system without having to catch and suffer from the real virus.

Gaining immunity through natural infection is not a viable path. Not with a virus that has a fatality rate as high as this one, and which sends so many people to hospital. But yes certainly, if someone is lucky enough to catch covid:delta and survive the experience without ending up in hospital, they will have some immunity -- of course.


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## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> Um this isn't exactly "news".


The research impresses Nussenzweig and other scientists who have reviewed a preprint of the results, posted yesterday on medRxiv. “It’s a textbook example of how natural immunity is really better than vaccination,” says Charlotte Thålin, a physician and immunology researcher at Danderyd Hospital and the Karolinska Institute who studies the immune responses to SARS-CoV-2. “To my knowledge, *it’s the first time [this] has really been shown in the context of COVID-19.”

apparently you know more than researchers. *


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## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> apparently you know more than researchers.


Well these snippets as reported in the media often miss nuances about what experts are saying. It could be that this scientist was commenting on some very particular aspect of this study which impressed him. Science reporting can be sketchy and inaccurate and journalists often miss some context.

I really thought it was well known that vaccinations use approximations of circulating viruses to train the body's immune system. In the case of the mRNA vaccines, they have taken one particular protein from the virus. They are only training the body to recognize that protein; not the whole virus.

It could be I am wrong, and maybe vaccinations have a history of producing stronger immunity than when the body sees the actual virus? That sounds surprising to me, but maybe it's true.


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## cainvest

james4beach said:


> But yes certainly, if someone is lucky enough to catch covid:delta and survive the experience without ending up in hospital, they will have some immunity -- of course.


And they get even better protection from having covid and then getting a single dose of pfizer afterwards.


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## bgc_fan

Talking about increased covid protection from natural infection is a little silly. Sure, but you have to deal with the side effects like death. For example, we're talking about heart inflammation that occurs at 12.6 per million, or about 0.00126% for someone in their 20s. Fatality rate for someone with covid who is 25, 0.01%. Basically, you would rather take a 10 fold chance of death over heart inflammation which it appears the majority recover from. Someone can add up all the fatal side effects from the vaccine and compare them to the mortality rate of covid, and I'm sure there's a much larger chance of dying from covid than from the vaccine. And given how delta variant seems to be spreading (even if you don't care about increased positive cases), the fact is that unless you self-isolate and never leave the house or have visitors, there's a good chance you'll get infected.


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## sags

I am not sure the rest of the scientific world has much confidence in studies coming out of Israel given their past record.


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## OptsyEagle

The question anymore is not whether natural infection is better efficacy then vaccination, because as J4B and others have indicated, the side effects of the disease have to be taken into account, in conjunction with the various efficacies, to determine the proper solution.

That said, there is no doubt that both natural infection combined with full vaccination is the superior protection and should provide the best hope for protection against future mutations as well. So the solution in my opinion (sorry, here it comes again. lol) is to take the bite out of the side effects of the natural infection, by 1st getting fully vaccinated and then bolster that immunity by attempting to obtain the safest natural infection you can possibly get, while protecting yourself when you find yourself in a more dangerous infection environment for covid-19.


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## bgc_fan

OTOH, I think if we start trialing this for unvaccinated covid patients as a scientific study to replace ventilators, it may cause an uptick in vaccination rates.









A breathing tube through the butt could be an alternative to mechanical ventilators


Inspired by animals that breathe through their butts, scientists show that mammals can also harness the incredible breathing ability of our butts




massivesci.com


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## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> The research impresses Nussenzweig and other scientists who have reviewed a preprint of the results, posted yesterday on medRxiv. “It’s a textbook example of how natural immunity is really better than vaccination,” says Charlotte Thålin, a physician and immunology researcher at Danderyd Hospital and the Karolinska Institute who studies the immune responses to SARS-CoV-2. “To my knowledge, *it’s the first time [this] has really been shown in the context of COVID-19.”
> 
> apparently you know more than researchers. *


Indeed, I think we've seen other studies that showed opposite findings.


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## andrewf

bgc_fan said:


> Talking about increased covid protection from natural infection is a little silly. Sure, but you have to deal with the side effects like death. For example, we're talking about heart inflammation that occurs at 12.6 per million, or about 0.00126% for someone in their 20s. Fatality rate for someone with covid who is 25, 0.01%. Basically, you would rather take a 10 fold chance of death over heart inflammation which it appears the majority recover from. Someone can add up all the fatal side effects from the vaccine and compare them to the mortality rate of covid, and I'm sure there's a much larger chance of dying from covid than from the vaccine. And given how delta variant seems to be spreading (even if you don't care about increased positive cases), the fact is that unless you self-isolate and never leave the house or have visitors, there's a good chance you'll get infected.


It was one thing to wait on the vaccine when it wasn't clear that every single person is going to get infected. Now the risk trade-off is pretty clear for all ages, the vaccine is the safer route than taking chances with the virus.


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## bgc_fan

andrewf said:


> It was one thing to wait on the vaccine when it wasn't clear that every single person is going to get infected. Now the risk trade-off is pretty clear for all ages, the vaccine is the safer route than taking chances with the virus.


Pretty much. Those who didn't want to get vaccinated were banking on the fact that they wouldn't get covid, but given how widespread delta is and given the fact that over 70% of Canadians are vaccinated, they should consider re-evaluating their choice. Particularly since the rate of serious side-effects is a lot lower.

Just to throw this out there, I'm willing to bet that those with serious side effects from the vaccine are those that would have had serious complications if they had been infected with covid.


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## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> Just to throw this out there, I'm willing to bet that those with serious side effects from the vaccine are those that would have had serious complications if they had been infected with covid.


I doubt it. Have heard of many young 30 years males died from covid. Mostly 60 plus.
Now health officials are looking into Canadian data that suggests the risk of heart inflammation after Moderna's shot is occurring at higher rates in younger adults than previously believed. The Post quoted a source saying the myocarditis risk could be 2.5 times higher for those who receive the Moderna vaccine over Pfizer's shot. Males under 30 appear to be the most at risk of developing the side effect with either vaccination.


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## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> I doubt it. Have heard of many young 30 years males died from covid. Mostly 60 plus.
> Now health officials are looking into Canadian data that suggests the risk of heart inflammation after Moderna's shot is occurring at higher rates in younger adults than previously believed. The Post quoted a source saying the myocarditis risk could be 2.5 times higher for those who receive the Moderna vaccine over Pfizer's shot. Males under 30 appear to be the most at risk of developing the side effect with either vaccination.


You're not good with numbers. I already posted the covid mortality rate vs the Pfizer. Even at 2.5x with Moderna, getting myocarditis is still lower than dying.
Oh, just because you don't hear about it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Here's one: Texas anti-mask movement leader dies of COVID-19
Another: LA man who mocked Covid-19 vaccines dies of virus
A couple here: 8 people who died from COVID-19 after letting down their guards or falling for anti-science rhetoric

Edit: Bonus, here's an older article about people under 40 dying in BC, back in March: Deaths from COVID-19 among people under 40 in B.C. have doubled since early February


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## james4beach

This is interesting. The Moderna vaccine makes twice as many antibodies as the Pfizer-BioNTech shot, according to a new study.

This study doesn't speak to whether antibody levels result in a difference in effectiveness. It's just about the amount of antibodies. Some scientists are speculating that the higher level of antibodies _might_ result in stronger protection.

One of my friends had the Moderna shot and was part of a blood antibody study. He told me that the researchers said his antibody levels were "off the charts" and they told him (informally) that he's about as well protected against covid as anyone can be. This was my first clue that the Moderna shot might pack quite a punch.

But there is another study, according to this Bloomberg article, which does suggest the Moderna shot makes breakthrough infections less likely. Kind of sad that many Canadians were trying to avoid the Moderna shot, and were "shopping around" for the Pfizer shot due to rumours on social media.



> Moderna’s vaccine was associated with a two-fold risk reduction against breakthrough SARS-CoV-2 infections compared to Pfizer’s in a review of people in the Mayo Clinic Health System in the U.S. from January to July. The results were reported in a separate study released ahead of publication and peer review on Aug. 9.


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## OptsyEagle

What I think is peculiar is that it seems to me that most people are starting to come around to the fact that the vaccines are very effective at keeping people alive. We know that if it was not for the increased deaths that covid produced we would not even be calling this a pandemic and having any of these conversations. We have pretty good vaccination take up and I suspect the passports will move a good number of the hold outs into that vaccine line or they won't ever get vaccinated. Our hospitals are currently holding up pretty good and there is as much of a reason to believe that will continue as not.

Yet, when I guy comes forward with a radical plan "*get fully vaccinated. If you don't have any known co-morbidities you should remove your mask, in all safer situations, and go on with your life" *it meets with unrelenting resistance.

Don't you think that maybe the fear from covid has become the bigger problem now. I asked many times, what is the plan then to do what I suggest above, now that we are fully vaccinated, and the only answer I got was "we should run and hide and wait for the virus to fizzle out on its own". I mean really?

Don't let your quick instincts answer this question. I don't think they are helping much. Give it some serious thought today. OK.


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## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Yet, when I guy comes forward with a radical plan "*get fully vaccinated. If you don't have any known co-morbidities you should remove your mask, in all safer situations, and go on with your life" *it meets with unrelenting resistance.


Yes, because by not wearing a mask, you're spreading COVID and stretching out the pandemic.
Get vaccinated, wear a mask, wash your hands.



> Don't you think that maybe the fear from covid has become the bigger problem now. I asked many times, what is the plan then to do what I suggest above, now that we are fully vaccinated, and the only answer I got was "we should run and hide and wait for the virus to fizzle out on its own". I mean really?


We're not fully vaccinated, not even close. I still think we're under 2/3'rds


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## OptsyEagle

OK. I guess we will wait for the virus to fizzle out then. That will probably be quicker then coming up with a better vaccine or getting our vaccination rate to the level most people will need to come out from hiding. What is the vaccination target for that. 85%?, 90%?, 95%?, 99%? I can't remember is that two doses or three?

Nice talk. Great plan. Thanks for that. I was just worried that we did not have a good plan.


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## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> OK. I guess we will wait for the virus to fizzle out then. That will probably be quicker then coming up with a better vaccine or getting our vaccination rate to the level most people will need to come out from hiding. What is the vaccination target for that. 85%?, 90%?, 95%?, 99%? I can't remember is that two doses or three?
> 
> Nice talk. Great plan. Thanks for that. I was just worried that we did not have a good plan.


We either need to get a vaccine to *every Canadian that wants it*, or continue with the public health restrictions to slow/stop the spread to those people.

Canada is in the 4th wave with over 3000 new cases a day.

But the a**h***s who are saying "I got my vaccine, F the rest of you", they are the problem.

Antivaxxers are a different problem for a variety of reasons.
Liars and spreaders of disinformation are another problem.








Canada to vaccinate all who want by end of summer, Trudeau Says - BNN Bloomberg


Canada’s Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Saturday said any adult in the country who wants to be vaccinated can be fully inoculated by the end of summer.




www.bnnbloomberg.ca




Summers over, Where the F is the vaccine? Oh wait, I was too busy planning an election nobody wants.


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## OptsyEagle

Fair enough. Now let's point the finger correctly at who all these a**h***s actually are.

Read my suggestion below again, please:

"*get fully vaccinated. If you don't have any known co-morbidities you should remove your mask, in all safer situations, and go on with your life" 

be honest now. Who on here, that is fully vaccinated, has not done the above already. By that I mean, going to an outside barbecue, or social gathering, or visiting a friend or family indoors for at least an hour, without wearing a mask? I would even include going to an indoor restaurant because let's face it, you can't wear a mask there and it is indoors and will probably take about an hour to complete. To be specific, I am asking the people that would not have done that in August of 2020, but did do it after vaccination in 2021.*

So, since the majority of us have done this (I won't wait for answers because I will only get the exceptions and liars), the only reason for the resistance is the attitude.

By that I mean, when you went to the barbecue, without a mask, your intention was to visit friends and family in the safest manner possible, knowing and hoping that if you did meet the virus, your infection would be benign. I, on the other hand, went to the same barbecue, not only to meet my friends and family, but actually hoping to meet a small amount of the virus, that I believe will bolster my immune system.

Is the divide between us really that large?


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## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Fair enough. Now let's point the finger correctly at who all these a**h***s actually are.
> 
> Read my suggestion below again, please:
> 
> "*get fully vaccinated. If you don't have any known co-morbidities you should remove your mask, in all safer situations, and go on with your life"
> 
> be honest now. Who on here, that is fully vaccinated, has not done the above already. By that I mean, going to an outside barbecue, or social gathering, or visiting a friend or family indoors for at least an hour, without wearing a mask? I would even include going to an indoor restaurant because let's face it, you can't wear a mask there and it is indoors and will probably take about an hour to complete. To be specific, I am asking the people that would not have done that in August of 2020, but did do it after vaccination in 2021.*
> 
> So, since the majority of us have done this (I won't wait for answers because I will only get the exceptions and liars), the only reason for the resistance is the attitude.
> 
> By that I mean, when you went to the barbecue, without a mask, your intention was to visit friends and family in the safest manner possible, knowing and hoping that if you did meet the virus, your infection would be benign. I, on the other hand, went to the same barbecue, not only to meet my friends and family, but actually hoping to meet a small amount of the virus, that I believe will bolster my immune system.
> 
> Is the divide between us really that large?


 We should remain masked until the vaccine is available for all Canadians who want it.
- As long as there are millions of Canadians prohibited from getting a vaccine, we should try to slow/reduce/stop the spread of COVID19.
Once there is a vaccine available to ALL Canadians who want it, that's fine. But when a good number of people at that BBQ are unvaccinated, maybe keep the mask on?

I don't know why you are so insistent on taking off your mask now, when there are millions of Canadians who are still waiting for their vaccine.

Secondly my real point, a vaccine won't stop the pandemic anyway. It will blunt the worst outcome, but it won't end it.


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## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> I don't know why you are so insistent on taking off your mask now, when there are millions of Canadians who are still waiting for their vaccine.
> 
> Secondly my real point, a vaccine won't stop the pandemic anyway. It will blunt the worst outcome, but it won't end it.


Because we don't have that vaccine right now for the kids and we have no idea of the take up on it when we do and how long that will probably take, but I can imagine. In the mean time, their safety will also be bolstered by our stronger immunities created by getting more exposure to this virus and seriously reducing the transmissibility of it.

If we keep waiting for this and waiting for that and then waiting again because this would work better if we had more of that, our current immunity will decline. The virus will mutate and every damn one of us will be right back to where we were before we even invented these wonderful vaccines.

I really don't want that and I see that as the much bigger problem if we actually want to worry about things that have not happened yet.


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## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Because we don't have that vaccine right now for the kids and we have no idea of the take up on it when we do and how long that will probably take, but I can imagine. In the mean time, their safety will also be bolstered by our stronger immunities created by getting more exposure to this virus and seriously reducing the transmissibility of it.
> 
> If we keep waiting for this and waiting for that and then waiting again because this would work better if we had more of that, our current immunity will decline. The virus will mutate and every damn one of us will be right back to where we were before we even invented these wonderful vaccines.


Take a booster, then you'll still be vaccinated, without spreading the virus to those who can't get vaccinated.
Seems like you're arguing for the COVID19 equivalent of Chicken Pox parties because "I've got my vaccine, so I'm safe"

Their safety will be bolstered by stopping the spread. Being vaccinated might help, but wearing a mask helps more.
Just stop whining and put on your damn mask


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## OptsyEagle

You really think this argument is about me not wanting to put a mask on my face. You certainly have not followed my posts over the last 18 months.

Anyway, thanks for your feedback. At least we resolved who the a**h***s actually are. I really don't like pointed fingers without any proper reflection on ones own actions on the matter. The "it is always the other guy who as fault" really annoys me.

Good luck to everyone.


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## damian13ster

Canadians who can't legally get it simply don't die from COVID. The numbers are clear on that. There is higher chance of winning a Lotto Max then dying from COVID as a kid. 
There is absolutely no reason to keep restrictions, mandates, or pretty much any action because of kids.
Kids are all right. We are hurting them more by restrictions than helping them


----------



## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> This is interesting. The Moderna vaccine makes twice as many antibodies as the Pfizer-BioNTech shot, according to a new study.
> 
> This study doesn't speak to whether antibody levels result in a difference in effectiveness. It's just about the amount of antibodies. Some scientists are speculating that the higher level of antibodies _might_ result in stronger protection.
> 
> One of my friends had the Moderna shot and was part of a blood antibody study. He told me that the researchers said his antibody levels were "off the charts" and they told him (informally) that he's about as well protected against covid as anyone can be. This was my first clue that the Moderna shot might pack quite a punch.
> 
> But there is another study, according to this Bloomberg article, which does suggest the Moderna shot makes breakthrough infections less likely. Kind of sad that many Canadians were trying to avoid the Moderna shot, and were "shopping around" for the Pfizer shot due to rumours on social media.


The shopping around part was about people who got Pfizer first and wanted a second Pfizer wasn't it? Given that many countries haven't accepted mixed vaccines yet, it seems to be the right choice.

As for Moderna over Pfizer, each dose of Moderna had 100 mg of vaccine, vice 30 mg. Grand scheme, may not mean much, but could be a reason why there was a difference in number of side-effects and antibody levels.


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## OptsyEagle

I have observed data and many studies that give conclusive evidence that our bodies respond to a viral invader differently depending on:

1) The size of the attack - the initial dose of infection or vaccination
2) The number of times the body is attacked - number of doses or infections
3) Where the attack comes from - so in our vaccinated case our bodies currently expect the attack to come from the shoulder and blood stream, when we all should know the attack will actually come from our respiratory system

Obviously natural infection wins, hands down in protecting us in #3, but it could be very well boosted in #2 by also getting vaccinated and natural infection can fail miserably in #1 because we have no control over the dose of infection we will get, when naturally infected.

If you truly want to build your immune system into the best suit of armor you can create, it will definitely come from a combination of both vaccination AND natural exposure to the virus.

Again, good luck to everyone.


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## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Take a booster, then you'll still be vaccinated, without spreading the virus to those who can't get vaccinated.
> Seems like you're arguing for the COVID19 equivalent of Chicken Pox parties because "I've got my vaccine, so I'm safe"
> 
> Their safety will be bolstered by stopping the spread. Being vaccinated might help, but wearing a mask helps more.
> Just stop whining and put on your damn mask


 ... I'm agreeing with MrMatt here because of OE's constant illusion that you should not be hiding, especially with your mask on and that you should be "moving on with life without a mask" "only happens" at a BBQ (eg. setting) with "friends and families" where you know who's who, got vaccinated or basically a responsible bunch. Whereas going "maskless" sitting next to someone (infected or not, never mind vaccinated or not?) "public" transit or a hockey game (infected or not?) or at a grocery aisle (infected or not)? or how about the workplace is a great solution to get "natural infection" "safely". Have you tried that OE? Let's know when you do get Covid whichever version.


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## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... I'm agreeing with MrMatt here .....


I'm as surprised as you are.

Really, until the cases get down, why don't we take easy convenient steps to slow the spread?


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## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Canadians who can't legally get it simply don't die from COVID. The numbers are clear on that. There is higher chance of winning a Lotto Max then dying from COVID as a kid.
> There is absolutely no reason to keep restrictions, mandates, or pretty much any action because of kids.
> Kids are all right. We are hurting them more by restrictions than helping them


 ... the kids might be alright getting Covid but the teachers ain't.


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## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... the kids might be alright getting Covid but the teachers ain't.


Good thing they are vaccinated and protected then


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## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I'm as surprised as you are.
> 
> Really, until the cases get down, why don't we take easy convenient steps to slow the spread?


 ... because that's what I (and not limited to me here, by not naming names) have been trying to say all along. Masking, social distatncing, handwashing, vaccines are the only arsenals we have at the moment against the fight on Covid. We = humans need "collaboration" instead of wasting time and efforts fighting amongst ourselves (eg. anti-vaxx, masks, etc.). Sheesh.


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## zinfit

On local Calgary Global news it was reported that 97% of the covid hospitalizations were partially vaccinated and unvaccinated. CNBC had a piece yesterday which described the vaccines as being amazing effective in prevented severe outcomes. It would be helpful if the health agencies concentrated on hospitalizations and the percentage who were unvaccinated.


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## OptsyEagle

zinfit said:


> On local Calgary Global news it was reported that 97% of the covid hospitalizations were partially vaccinated and unvaccinated. CNBC had a piece yesterday which described the vaccines as being amazing effective in prevented severe outcomes. It would be helpful if the health agencies concentrated on hospitalizations and the percentage who were unvaccinated.


We can't have that. What we should do is wait until that protection wanes and significantly reduces, so that the kids, who really do not need it, get a vaccine offered to them. The kids that have parents that probably will delay and argue and whine. Like that vaccine won't have a side effect to worry about.

Anyway, I have made my point. You can lead a horse to water but...

The Delta will direct us to my solution whether we agree with it or not, so good luck to all. Thanks for listening.


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## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> We can't have that. What we should do is wait until that protection wanes and significantly reduces, so that the kids, who really do not need it, get a vaccine offered to them. The kids that have parents that probably will delay and argue and whine. Like that vaccine won't have a side effect to worry about.
> 
> Anyway, I have made my point. You can lead a horse to water but...
> 
> The Delta will direct us to my solution whether we agree with it or not, so good luck to all. Thanks for listening.


Your "solution" is everyone get COVID and hope not too many people die during this wave.

That is a risky solution.
Even if the vaccine reduces hospitalizations by 10%, if we get mass spreading, we'll overload our hospitals and more people will die.

Also, go ahead, vaccinate the teachers, but you get an outbreak at the school, and you have hundreds or thousands of cases, plus those families likley have kids/family members at other schools and businesses, which will also hit heathcare workers.

Sure it looks like kids aren't spreading for some reason, but until we know why, it's a risk.

So I say, wear masks, get vaccines, but this pandemic isn't over yet.

Also I'm against closing the schools again. Keep them open if we can.


----------



## damian13ster

Aren't vaccines supposed to reduce hospitalizations by over 90%?


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> Aren't vaccines supposed to reduce hospitalizations by over 90%?


That is exactly what the data is saying. In fact it appears much better then that. Iceland has vaccinated 90% of their population and has zero ICU cases or deaths. A very small percentage of the covid hospitalizations are the fully vaccinated and that group is people who have other serious health issues.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Secondly my real point, a vaccine won't stop the pandemic anyway. It will blunt the worst outcome, but it won't end it.


Depends on what you mean by "end it". If Canada got say 98% full vaccine uptake for all over age 11 then that would likely end it. And by that I mean there would not be enough hospitalizations/deaths to significantly impact us anymore.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Depends on what you mean by "end it". If Canada got say 98% full vaccine uptake for all over age 11 then that would likely end it. And by that I mean there would not be enough hospitalizations/deaths to significantly impact us anymore.


Maybe, matters if we can "flatten the curve" enough to keep from overwhelming the resources.

Realistically we're on the edge again. Hospitals are having lots of staffing problems.
I think we've got pretty much all the adults vaccinated that will do so without being forced.


----------



## andrewf

OptsyEagle said:


> Yet, when I guy comes forward with a radical plan "*get fully vaccinated. If you don't have any known co-morbidities you should remove your mask, in all safer situations, and go on with your life" *it meets with unrelenting resistance.
> 
> Don't you think that maybe the fear from covid has become the bigger problem now. I asked many times, what is the plan then to do what I suggest above, now that we are fully vaccinated, and the only answer I got was "we should run and hide and wait for the virus to fizzle out on its own". I mean really?


The mask was always more about protecting others in the event you were infected. Just because you are vaccinated does not mean you can't become infected, particularly asymptomatically, and spread it to an unvaccinated person.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Maybe, matters if we can "flatten the curve" enough to keep from overwhelming the resources.
> 
> Realistically we're on the edge again. Hospitals are having lots of staffing problems.
> I think we've got pretty much all the adults vaccinated that will do so without being forced.


Yes and that is possibly an obtainable goal. MB is at 77% fully vaxed (over 11) with numbers still climbing but we likely need > 95% to stop resources from being stressed.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Yes and that is possibly an obtainable goal. MB is at 77% fully vaxed (over 11) with numbers still climbing but we likely need > 95% to stop resources from being stressed.


95% wont' happen.





__





Vaccine Coverage in Canadian Children: Results from the 2017 Childhood National Immunization Coverage Survey (cNICS) - Canada.ca


Results from the 2017 survey on how well Canadian children are protected against vaccine preventable diseases, as well as what parents know and think about vaccines.




www.canada.ca





Also at least in Ontario vaccines are mandatory for children, and we just have 90%


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> 95% wont' happen.


Maybe ... hard to say what the real number we need is anyways.

In MB we currently have 60-69 @ 91%, 70-79 @ 97%, 80+ @ 96%.
If we get greater uptake for the younger groups it's possible. We'll see what happens over the next month as non-vaxed here get limited access to some places starting tomorrow.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> Your "solution" is everyone get COVID and hope not too many people die during this wave.


That is the future, not my idea. My solution is to approach that safer then what we are currently doing. Right now people are socializing like crazy, indoors, without masks. Because of that, EVERYONE is going to get covid.

You should be able to see that by now. Not sure why you can't?


----------



## OptsyEagle

andrewf said:


> The mask was always more about protecting others in the event you were infected. Just because you are vaccinated does not mean you can't become infected, particularly asymptomatically, and spread it to an unvaccinated person.


The only way we are ever going to stop that, it appears, is by viral exposure. I did not make up these conditions we are in, I am only the one trying to explain to everyone how to resolve, as best as possible, these serious vulnerabilities you are talking about.

Unless you can come up with a suggestion on how we are going to get people to wear a mask 100% of the time, when they are with family and friends, then the only other solution to reducing a vaccinated person's ability to transmit this virus, is through exposure to the virus itself and the significant improvement in immunity that provides.

Let me know when you come up with the 100% masking solution and I will stop harping on the next best solution that we have.


----------



## andrewf

The goal is not to infect everyone as fast as possible.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> That is the future, not my idea. My solution is to approach that safer then what we are currently doing. Right now people are socializing like crazy, indoors, without masks. Because of that, EVERYONE is going to get covid.
> 
> You should be able to see that by now. Not sure why you can't?


I did see it. I said so in March 2020. Back when I was sharing the research that an effective vaccine would likely not be found.
Just to be clear, right now we don't have a vaccine that is effective at stopping COVID19, it just reduces the worst symptoms.

I know people are being stupid today, that's my concern.


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> The goal is not to infect everyone as fast as possible.


Exactly ... unless you want to crush the healthcare system. With 1 out 4 unvaxed that can still lead to some pretty big infection curves numbers and hospitalizations.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Exactly ... unless you want to crush the healthcare system. With 1 out 4 unvaxed that can still lead to some pretty big infection curves numbers and hospitalizations.


Even with everyone vaccinated, if we're getting 10k new cases a day, we'll fill the hospitals. Also at that rate we'll have significant numbers of hospital workers off sick, making it worse.


----------



## andrewf

Ontario peaked at ~2300 hospitalized in April. Today we are at 320, up nearly 3x from a month ago. If we triple cases twice (9x) we'll be back to where we were in April. That could happen by end of October at current rates, or sooner if spread accelerates due to seasonal factors.

According to Ontario's website, we also only had 60 people in hospital at the beginning of Sept 2020. We're not out of the woods yet, and we are not at the stage where we want to be hitting the accelerator on infection rates.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Even with everyone vaccinated, if we're getting 10k new cases a day, we'll fill the hospitals.


On the flip side with everyone vaccinated, if we're getting 10 new cases a day, we *won't* fill the hospitals.


----------



## zinfit

Looking at the India data I am guessing the Delta variant has went through the population and it is no longer making the news.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> I did see it. I said so in March 2020. Back when I was sharing the research that an effective vaccine would likely not be found.
> Just to be clear, right now we don't have a vaccine that is effective at stopping COVID19, it just reduces the worst symptoms.
> 
> I know people are being stupid today, that's my concern.


So you noticed that. Well instead of calling all those people stupid and hoping that creates some kind of change or fix, I tend to look at it as part of the problem that needs to be dealt with.

Right now, what most people seem to be telling me is that we should continue to wear a mask in large retail stores and other short visit indoor settings, to reduce any spread that might cause, but let's not worry about the big hole in our covid boats, the hole I call renewed socializing, by an incredibly large part of our vaccinated population...including probably every one on this board who is currently arguing against me on all this.

That is like saying, don't attempt to nail a board down to seal up that 1 foot diameter hole in the boat because you might accidently put a few nail size holes in it as well. Just let that water flow in and keep the hammer away and maybe we won't sink.

I, on the other hand, say hey why don't we remove the masks, when we are in a place where the odds of a serious infection are very low and use that mild exposure to the virus to protect us when we find ourselves in the more dangerous settings, like a large family Thanksgiving dinner, that has a much higher chance of sending someone to the hospital.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> I, on the other hand, say hey why don't we remove the masks, when we are in a place where the odds of a serious infection are very low and use that mild exposure to the virus to protect us when we find ourselves in the more dangerous settings, like a large family Thanksgiving dinner, that has a much higher chance of sending someone to the hospital.


It is a simple matter of numbers ... if hospitalizations are low, remove restrictions. If hospitalizations rise, add restrictions .. and ones people will follow. Forcing masks indoors for Thanksgiving will get maybe 1% compliance where requiring masks for stores will get 99% compliance.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> It is a simple matter of numbers ... if hospitalizations are low, remove restrictions. If hospitalizations rise, add restrictions .. and ones people will follow. Forcing masks indoors for Thanksgiving will get maybe 1% compliance where requiring masks for stores will get 99% compliance.


Now do that math on what that means for severe infections. The 99% compliance in large stores is almost irrelevant to stopping severe primary infections and the 99% failure at Thanksgiving will be a complete disaster. What I am saying is if you remove the 99% compliance, in short duration contacts, you can eventually avoid those disasters. If you don't you never will and if you wait your opportunity wanes.

It is not just about what people will do. We also have to factor in what we must do.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> ...
> 
> Right now*, what most people seem to be telling me is that we should continue to wear a mask in large retail stores and other short visit indoor settings, to reduce any spread that might cause*, but let's not worry about the big hole in our covid boats, *the hole I call renewed socializing, by an incredibly large part of our vaccinated population*...including probably every one on this board who is currently arguing against me on all this.
> ...
> 
> *I, on the other hand, say hey why don't we remove the masks, when we are in a place where the odds of a serious infection are very low and use that mild exposure to the virus to protect us when we find ourselves in the more dangerous settings, like a large family Thanksgiving dinne*r, that has a much higher chance of sending someone to the hospital.


 ... huh???? Is today September 2nd, 2020? And what is "renewed socializing"?


----------



## Beaver101

cainvest said:


> It is a simple matter of numbers ... if hospitalizations are low, remove restrictions. If hospitalizations rise, add restrictions .. and ones people will follow. Forcing masks indoors for Thanksgiving will get maybe 1% compliance where requiring masks for stores will get 99% compliance.


 ... I think that's the current guidance given (by Public Health/Science Advisory Table) to our provincial government, passed down to the public.

And I'm not banking on "no further lockdowns" (for Ontario) coming this fall ... soon ... based on this latest article:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-covid-19-vaccination-rate-1.6161726



> New modelling released Wednesday by Ontario's COVID-19 science advisory table says more than 85 per cent of the eligible population needs to be vaccinated to avoid a lockdown this fall due to the highly contagious delta variant.
> 
> The table said Ontarians also need to reduce contacts to about 70 per cent of pre-pandemic levels until vaccination levels are high enough to protect the population. To reduce contacts, the table recommends:
> 
> Reducing indoor density, maintaining physical distancing, limiting large gatherings.
> Continuing indoor mask policies and working from home.
> Implementing policies that accelerate vaccination (e.g. certificates, mandates, outreach).
> The table confirmed that Ontario is in the fourth wave of the pandemic and it said its modelling predicts the resulting spike in cases will be "substantial." ...


 ... if I recall correctly, previously to avoid a lockdown required a 70% fully vaccination rate. Now that requirement is 85%. Might be a challenge (... let me get my earplugs first before the guy with the moral rights on refusing lockdowns come screaming on this board ... ) to achieve this level. And if it doesn't, gonna to clash with the vaccine-certificate-requirement coming to Ontario on Sept. 22nd.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> What I am saying is if you remove the 99% compliance, in short duration contacts, you can eventually avoid those disasters.


A possibility but very unlikely. Many non-compliance issues exist (in homes) beyond thankgiving BTW. I understand you want the non-vaxed infected and to a degree I agree with that providing the health case isn't significantly affected. But trying to steer the masses to only "low dose" activities is a pipe dream IMO.



OptsyEagle said:


> It is not just about what people will do. We also have to factor in what we must do.


There is no single "must do" right now just adjustments to the same old, same old to limit colateral damage to other systems.


----------



## bgc_fan

zinfit said:


> Looking at the India data I am guessing the Delta variant has went through the population and it is no longer making the news.


No, they just stopped reporting covid related deaths.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> Looking at the India data I am guessing the Delta variant has went through the population and it is no longer making the news.


 ... not sure which India "data" you were looking at. But just a quick google of their country's news showed there were only 300 Delta plus cases and the Delta variant has been isolated ... if you would only believe it. Didn't the Delta variant emerged from India and they only had 300 (plus) of those cases ... whilst the rest of the world had thousands ... duh.

300 Delta plus cases in India so far while Delta variant has been isolated: Health ministry


Also, what is wrong in this picture?

India records 47,092 new Covid-19 cases, highest in two months

The masked beneficiary gets the innoculation whilst the accompanying unmasked person watches ...


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> A possibility but very unlikely. Many non-compliance issues exist (in homes) beyond thankgiving BTW. I understand you want the non-vaxed infected and to a degree I agree with that providing the health case isn't significantly affected. But trying to steer the masses to only "low dose" activities is a pipe dream IMO.
> 
> 
> There is no single "must do" right now just adjustments to the same old, same old to limit colateral damage to other systems.


I want the un-vaxed vaccinated. If they don't, I am just acknowledging that they are going to get infected. That cannot be stopped. If the vaccinated keep socializing, like they have since they started to feel safer from their vaccination, the spread will continue and the un-vaxed are going to get it. Plain and simple.

As Matt has said the vaccine is not good enough to stop the spread. It helps keep the vaccinated out of the hospital but the only way we can truly stop the spread is to improve our immune systems. I seriously doubt a 3rd dose will do that, especially if we get another mutation that ups the severity again. Plus it would take a lot of time and seriously work against us in getting the un-vaxed to vax. What we need is some natural exposure. At some point in time we are going to have to remove our masks and get some exposure to this virus.  I would just rather do it when my immunity is as strong as possible, not in the spring after 8 months of waning or some other further off time while we wait for these unvaccinated to develop some common sense.

Lastly, how long do you want to keep protecting people (un-vaxed) who are doing nothing to protect themselves? All they have to do is roll up their sleeves and take a needle, but since they won't, I guess it is agreed here that we should all wait, "runaway and hide" for another...what are we talking about here, another 3 months, 8 months, 2 years, 5 years? I wouldn't mind knowing when we are going to give up on that plan and start doing something constructive to finally take the edge off this virus and put it behind us.

*We currently have some [email protected] protection in these vaccines but everyone just wants to wait and watch it simply decay away or fall victim to a new variant*. _Brilliant! _You can be sure I won't be following that plan.


----------



## sags

*We currently have some [email protected] protection in these vaccines but everyone just wants to wait and watch it simply decay away or fall victim to a new variant*_. Brilliant! You can be sure I won't be following that plan._

No.......we want booster shots to tide us over until the virus fizzles out.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> I would just rather do it when my immunity is as strong as possible, not in the spring after 8 months of waning or some other further off time while we wait for these unvaccinated to develop some common sense.


So I gather you'll be seeking out covid positive people (or at least anti-mask rallies) in an attempt to aquire a "low dose" infection to boost your protection?


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> So I gather you'll be seeking out covid positive people (or at least anti-mask rallies) in an attempt to aquire a "low dose" infection to boost your protection?


Actually I will probably be doing almost exactly what the rest of you will be doing, which is pretty much going on with my life and not pretending that wearing a mask is really going to help society much or me.

But yes, if a person opens their arms for a hug, I will be there. If a person sneezes, I will walk over and offer them a tissue? If a person coughs I will walk over and ask if they would like me to get them a glass of water? The only thing that might seem weird is that person who coughed will never see me again. The visit will be incredibly short. If you are there, he will be the guy looking around asking "hey where's my water". lol

Listen. I don't live in a dream world. I know that we are not going to see people without masks, in the Canadian Tire, anytime soon. I just think it is a mistake but it is far from the biggest one we are making. The cat is now out of the bag. People are socializing too much these days. The virus will be spreading like wildfire. Protecting ourselves from safer exposures with masks just leaves us more vulnerable to the exposures that everyone seems OK with today, and that is the socializing that the newly vaccinated are currently doing ... and will continue to do.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

While Israel often topped the list of population vaccinated by Oxford University-based Our World in Data, now it's leading in another category: It has the world's highest seven-day rolling average of new daily coronavirus cases per million people.

*Daily record*
On Tuesday, Israel's Ministry of Health reported that the country had set a new daily record for diagnosed coronavirus cases at nearly 11,000, which comes as the delta variant surges across much of the world.

There were 716 people in the country hospitalized and in serious condition with COVID-19 complications, including 159 on ventilators, the Times of Israel reported.
And while Israel went several weeks in May without a death, more than 550 people have died of COVID-19 in August, including over 100 of them in the last five days, the Times reported.
Meanwhile, Israeli health officials reported what appeared to be a waning efficacy of the vaccine, including among those who had been double vaccinated. Data showed that of the serious cases being admitted to hospital, around 60 per cent of patients were people who had been fully vaccinated, though most were over 60 or with underlying health conditions.
The most cautionary tale for Canada could be observations that the rate of infection has been found to be higher in people vaccinated back in January, compared with people who were vaccinated in April, said Leshem.

"In simple words: That protection against infection is waning over time."

These results were observed in people who were double vaccinated, regardless of age or whether they were immunocompromised, he said.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*B.C. records 801 new cases of COVID-19 and 6 more deaths*
*There are 199 people in hospital with the disease, 116 of whom are in intensive care*


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> The most cautionary tale for Canada could be observations that the rate of infection has been found to be higher in people vaccinated back in January, compared with people who were vaccinated in April, said Leshem.


Looks like Canada may have lucked out by delaying the second shots instead of using the recommended 3-4 weeks!


----------



## Ukrainiandude

cainvest said:


> Looks like Canada may have lucked out by delaying the second shots instead of using the recommended 3-4 weeks!


Second doses were delivered May-July 
plus 5-6 months 
Canada will have an outbreak in the middle of the winter.


----------



## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> No, they just stopped reporting covid related deaths.


And Ontario is reporting Covid related deaths 2+ months later 🤣


----------



## cainvest

Ukrainiandude said:


> Second doses were delivered May-July
> plus 5-6 months
> Canada will have an outbreak in the middle of the winter.


Lots of time for that booster shot then ... after we see it works in other countries of course.


----------



## damian13ster

COVID-19 Spike Protein May Change Cells In The Heart


Researchers have found a concerning link between certain heart cells and the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. The spike protein




www.iflscience.com





How does it affect decision to mandate introduction of spike protein into your organism?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

damian13ster said:


> COVID-19 Spike Protein May Change Cells In The Heart
> 
> 
> Researchers have found a concerning link between certain heart cells and the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. The spike protein
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.iflscience.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How does it affect decision to mandate introduction of spike protein into your organism?


But if you get sick with covid, you will get similar spike proteins


----------



## damian13ster

Ukrainiandude said:


> But if you get sick with covid, you will get similar spike proteins


True.
IF you get sick.
The concentration of spike protein you will be exposed to also varies, depending on place of transmission, virality of person that transmits, and how quickly your immune system reacts.

With vaccine you are assured you will be hit with large doses of spike protein.
There is also a concern when it comes to boosters. With your body already having some protection, it can fights the virus at the point of entry decreasing the amount your vessels will be exposed to.

With booster shots you again shoot up massive amount into your body.

Much more research needs to be done on this. It is major concern though


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Second doses were delivered May-July
> plus 5-6 months
> Canada will have an outbreak in the middle of the winter.


Most vulnerable (LTC, senior houses etc) got both doses as per producer schedule and much earlier, mostly in March. So, spike will start also earlier... Government should start giving preventive boosters to all seniors already


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> With vaccine you are assured you will be hit with large doses of spike protein.


I didn't see any mention in that study of the vaccine spike protein being used, just the sars-cov-2 one.


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> I didn't see any mention in that study of the vaccine spike protein being used, just the sars-cov-2 one.


*Messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccine.* This type of vaccine uses genetically engineered mRNA to give your cells instructions for how to *make the S protein found on the surface of the COVID-19 virus*. After vaccination, your immune cells begin making the S protein pieces and displaying them on cell surfaces. This causes your body to create antibodies. If you later become infected with the COVID-19 virus, these antibodies will fight the virus.

The study references S protein. Thought that so far into vaccine development the mechanism by which they work wouldn't have to be explained again.......


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> The study references S protein.


So you are implying all spike proteins are exactly the same?


----------



## bgc_fan

cainvest said:


> So you are implying all spike proteins are exactly the same?


Probably similar enough that it doesn't matter. It hasn't been peer reviewed yet, but there's been speculation that the protein itself is what causes damage. However, it's pretty useful to point out that it used to be a question of IF you get covid. Given the spread of the delta variant, it is more a question of WHEN. I'd say any damage due to getting covid is greatly higher than any damage from a controlled amount of spike proteins via vaccination. Of course, people are still thinking they won't get covid. 
The choice is pretty simple, get a small amount via vaccination, or an uncontrolled amount (until your immune system can defend against covid).


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> So you are implying all spike proteins are exactly the same?


No, not all spike proteins are the same. Spike proteins produced as a result of the vaccine are the same as spike proteins seen on the surface of the virus. Manufacturers, research studies, CDC, everyone says so.

And yes, the study hasn't been peer reviewed. It is serious enough to be presented at Cardiologist conference so simply need to wait for it to be reviewed.
Dismissing science simply because it doesn't suit your ideology is dangerous though. Permanent changes to heart tissue are nothing to scoff at. They won't show up in 2 month trial but can be absolutely deadly down the road. This needs to be investigated.

And coercing people to purposely damage their heart tissue is questionable at best


----------



## Beaver101

^


> And *coercing people to purposely* damage their heart tissue is questionable at best


 ... that's quite an allegation there. 

Anyhow, it's a Russian roulette choice - don't get vaccinated, risk getting Covid and dying in the short term (or maybe not if "super"-lucky). Get vaccinated, risk getting heart tissue damage (over the long term) but not dying from Covid in the short term. Your pick.


----------



## damian13ster

Not an allegation.
Simply acknowledging research and acknowledging that more of it needs to be done because first information is extremely concerning.

Ahh, here you hit the nail on the head. It should be your pick. It isn't - there is coercion


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Not an allegation.
> Simply acknowledging research and acknowledging that more of it needs to be done because first information is extremely concerning.


 ... so are you expecting people (including kids) to wait out their lives for that research to be complete?



> Ahh, here you hit the nail on the head. It should be your pick. It isn't - there is coercion


 ... if you say so. As far as I'm aware, the vaccine remains voluntary. And racism hasn't gone away either.


----------



## damian13ster

I think especially kids and young people should wait. I regret not making that decision and getting double-vaccinated personally.
But of course this should be personal decision, free of coercion
A young person has extremely small risks involved with the virus, and highest risks involved with the vaccine. They will have to live with long term effect on their hearts for 60-70 years.
People who are at highest risk from the virus (65+) are also at lowest risk from the vaccines and partial deterioration of their hearts also has less time to shave off their lives.

Yes, jews were also coerced, not mandated to leave Germany. It was still just a coercion.
Even politicians are no longer hiding it - they are calling it mandates.
You can pretend 2+2=5 but it won't make it true. There is coercion


----------



## zinfit

cainvest said:


> So you are implying all spike proteins are exactly the same?


Great point. The spike protein is only one piece of the covid virus . The messenger RNA gets your cells to produce the spike protein and your immune system responds by creating antibodies to eliminate the spike protein. In no way does the vaccine create the actual covid virus. There is an excellent discussion with Dr Francis Collins and a Dr Corbett on this very topic. It is on YOU TUBE. Collins headed the Genome group which made major discoveries on DNA and Genomes and their coding. Corbett was the lead scientists that led to the creation f the Moderna vaccine.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ^ ... that's quite an allegation there.
> 
> Anyhow, it's a Russian roulette choice - don't get vaccinated, risk getting Covid and dying in the short term (or maybe not if "super"-lucky). Get vaccinated, risk getting heart tissue damage (over the long term) but not dying from Covid in the short term. Your pick.


Well that's literally what happens.
We know that these vaccines have a number of side effects, from minor to fatal. 
Governments are also trying to coerce people into taking the vaccines, by restricting activities, jobs etc.

Look back, months ago I said I disapprove of mandatory medical interventions, now there is more data showing there are risks. It's clear there is some risk with these vaccines. People should be allowed to refuse them.
I think they're wrong to do so, but I'm unwilling to infringe on their human rights.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> Great point. The spike protein is only one piece of the covid virus . The messenger RNA gets your cells to produce the spike protein and your immune system responds by creating antibodies to eliminate the spike protein. In no way does the vaccine create the actual covid virus. There is an excellent discussion with Dr Francis Collins and a Dr Corbett on this very topic. It is on YOU TUBE. Collins headed the Genome group which made major discoveries on DNA and Genomes and their coding. Corbett was the lead scientists that led to the creation f the Moderna vaccine.


The research that I have posted is on spike protein damaging heart tissue.
Not the rest of the virus.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> I think especially kids and young people should wait. I regret not making that decision and getting double-vaccinated personally.
> But of course this should be personal decision, free of coercion
> A young person has extremely small risks involved with the virus, and highest risks involved with the vaccine. They will have to live with long term effect on their hearts for 60-70 years.
> People who are at highest risk from the virus (65+) are also at lowest risk from the vaccines and partial deterioration of their hearts also has less time to shave off their lives.
> 
> Yes, jews were also coerced, not mandated to leave Germany. It was still just a coercion.
> Even politicians are no longer hiding it - they are calling it mandates.
> You can pretend 2+2=5 but it won't make it true. There is coercion


 ... here's somewhat a double paradox for you. A vaccine for kids under 12 has not be approved for use (at least in Canada) so no coercion whatsoever, even with the kid + parents "wanting" one. 

Now you have a case where a kid being 12 (qualified) who wants it (plus his mom) but dad disapprove ('cause he believes in a Texas doctor instead that the vaccine has many side-effects). Both the kid and parents have to go to court (in Quebec) to get one or not. 

Quebec judge rules 12-year-old boy can get COVID-19 vaccine despite father's opposition

So how do you explain this one - particularly on coercion? 

As said repeatedly, it's a "chance" everyone "not living in a cave or a remote island" has to take in this pandemic - the vaccine or Covid (eventually).


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Well that's literally what happens.
> We know that these vaccines have a number of side effects, from minor to fatal.
> *Governments are also trying to coerce people into taking the vaccines, by restricting activities, jobs etc. *


 ... and then you have people screaming about the"restrictions" infringing on "their rights" too. And what will we be saying to the people lying in the ICUs who were infected (unfairly or unfortunately)? Too bad for your rights.



> Look back, months ago I said I disapprove of mandatory medical interventions, now there is more data showing there are risks. It's clear there is some risk with these vaccines. People should be allowed to refuse them.
> I think they're wrong to do so, but I'm unwilling to infringe on their human rights.


 ... it's easy to look at hindsight and make claims. And then there're those who quote and publish stats with miniscule deaths percentages to make a big stink of the vaccine's risks ... which is it? Can't have both the cake and the icings here.

As for trying to put a stop on infringing human rights, I don't dispute that it's good intentions but that attempt has loooong gone out the window. Right now, it's only lip service being touted all around - like the summer's hot air.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Spike proteins produced as a result of the vaccine are the same as spike proteins seen on the surface of the virus.


While they "appear the same" to the immune system they are not the same structure (vaccine vs sars-cov-2).




damian13ster said:


> Dismissing science simply because it doesn't suit your ideology is dangerous though.


So is extrapolating from study results. You'd have to see if a study comes out testing heart tissue damage with the vaccine spike protein .. that indeed could be cause for concern but is not the case here.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... and then you have people screaming about the"restrictions" infringing on "their rights" too. And what will we be saying to the people lying in the ICUs who were infected (unfairly or unfortunately)? Too bad for your rights.


What "right"
The right to be free from disease?
I don't recall that in any constitution.

However it's pretty well accepted that you have the right to refuse an unwanted medical procedure.



> ... it's easy to look at hindsight and make claims.


I've been arguing the same point for months, even before the vaccine was available.
heck the Ontario Nurses argued against vaccines before COVID even existed.



> And then there're those who quote and publish stats with miniscule deaths percentages to make a big stink of the vaccine's risks ... which is it? Can't have both the cake and the icings here.


Like the AZ vaccine which got pulled? 
Don't want cake, or icing. I want the government to respect basic human rights.



> As for trying to put a stop on infringing human rights, I don't dispute that it's good intentions but that attempt has loooong gone out the window. Right now, it's only lip service being touted all around - like the summer's hot air.


I agree, we should stop infringing human rights, the governments good intentions have long gone out the window. This is just about exerting their authority and a powerplay.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> Don't want cake, or icing. I want the government to respect basic human rights.


 ... not going in a long-winded post. Before I had the chance to log off, here's the latest headline of those who wants the government to "respect basic human rights" or your version of "an infringement of an unwanted medical procedure (vaccination)":

'Truly disheartening:" Ontario Hospital Association says anti-vaccine protests outside hospitals went too far



> Published Friday, September 3, 2021 11:27AM EDT
> The head of the Ontario Hospital Association says that *a series of raucous anti-vaccination protests outside several downtown hospitals this week “inflicted moral injury” on healthcare professionals who are exhausted from doing “everything in their power to protect and care” for patients infected with COVID-19.*
> 
> Hundred of demonstrators blocked traffic along University Avenue at College Street on Wednesday as they protested vaccine mandates and shared misinformation about COVID-19 vaccines outside the entrances to Toronto General and Mt. Sinai hospitals.
> 
> The protest continued for hours, forcing some healthcare workers to go through the throngs of mask-less demonstrators to get to work.
> 
> On Friday, OHA President Anthony Dale broke his silence about the protests, releasing a statement in which he called them “truly disheartening” while noting that most of the participants were not healthcare workers.
> 
> He also slammed the protestors for making things harder on already overworked and overburdened hospital staff.
> 
> *“By denying the effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines they also inflicted moral injury on health care workers who are working tirelessly on the frontlines caring for patients sick and dying from this dangerous virus,” he said.** “It is a bitter irony that should any of these anti-vaccine protesters get sick or seriously ill from COVID, it will be hospitals and frontline workers that they turn to for care, perhaps even to save their life.”*
> 
> There have been frequent protests against public health measures throughout the COVID-19 pandemic but in recent weeks the demonstrations have increasingly targeted specific businesses and institutions, including several dining establishments owned by a restauranteur who has advocated for vaccine passports.
> 
> Earlier this week, NDP Leader Andrea Horwath promised that her party would bring forward legislation to create “public health safety zones” in an effort to reduce harassment though it is unclear exactly how her plan would work.
> 
> In a separate statement issued on Friday, the Ontario Medical Association and Canadian Medical Association said there has been an escalation in anti-vaccine messaging “in certain cities and communities” with some protests “precluding access to much-needed health care settings.”
> 
> They said that given a worsening fourth wave of the pandemic driven by the Delta variant, “it has has never been more important to stand with our health care colleagues and deplore any and all online or in-person threats.”
> 
> “The health care workers who have worked tirelessly for months on end are being bullied and harassed for doing their jobs,” the statement notes. “This is wrong and unacceptable – full stop. We are in a health crisis of unprecedented proportions.”


 ... the bolded (not black but red) can't be further from the final truth.

When they're lying in the ICU, they'll be screaming "where's my god-damn right to be saved!!!!".

Talk about these Covidiots-beyond-help shooting themselves in the foot.


----------



## damian13ster

Respect basic human rights and there won't be protests.
Of course location for the protest is stupid - it should be at Health authority's and premier's house and government buildings, not hospitals, but the root cause here are politicians, not protesters.


----------



## afulldeck

OptsyEagle said:


> I want the un-vaxed vaccinated. If they don't, I am just acknowledging that they are going to get infected. That cannot be stopped. If the vaccinated keep socializing, like they have since they started to feel safer from their vaccination, the spread will continue and the un-vaxed are going to get it. Plain and simple.
> 
> As Matt has said the vaccine is not good enough to stop the spread. It helps keep the vaccinated out of the hospital but the only way we can truly stop the spread is to improve our immune systems. I seriously doubt a 3rd dose will do that, especially if we get another mutation that ups the severity again. Plus it would take a lot of time and seriously work against us in getting the un-vaxed to vax. What we need is some natural exposure. At some point in time we are going to have to remove our masks and get some exposure to this virus.  I would just rather do it when my immunity is as strong as possible, not in the spring after 8 months of waning or some other further off time while we wait for these unvaccinated to develop some common sense.
> 
> Lastly, how long do you want to keep protecting people (un-vaxed) who are doing nothing to protect themselves? All they have to do is roll up their sleeves and take a needle, but since they won't, I guess it is agreed here that we should all wait, "runaway and hide" for another...what are we talking about here, another 3 months, 8 months, 2 years, 5 years? I wouldn't mind knowing when we are going to give up on that plan and start doing something constructive to finally take the edge off this virus and put it behind us.
> 
> *We currently have some [email protected] protection in these vaccines but everyone just wants to wait and watch it simply decay away or fall victim to a new variant*. _Brilliant! _You can be sure I won't be following that plan.


Your right @OpstyEagle Covid-19 cannot be stopped. Vaccinated or not, there will be no herd immunity the virus is now endemic. All this posture with masks, vaccine passports and the like are medical and political theater. 

A breakdown from the UK. Pretty straight forward.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Yeah. It looks like it is going to take people a little more time to come to grips with what all this means. I agree the way forward is not completely clear but once you finally understand that we will all eventually be exposed to this virus, the better ways forward do start to make a little more sense. Until one understands this, the only way forward will always sound like some form of lunacy.

You are starting to see this realization, although in very small amounts, by various leaders and epidemiologist around the world but I have no doubt soon many more will be talking about it. As I said, the combination of a highly infectious delta variant, a vaccine that takes the teeth out of the virus for the fully vaccinated, and the fact that the hope of herd immunity will not be possible, will start to wake everyone up as to what we can possibly do about that massive problem. The solution, unfortuneately, will not be without casualties. I wish that was not the case, but it is.

I was hoping I could give the board a little advanced notice of this, and I did notice some people starting to acknowledge these facts, but perhaps arguing on the timing and methods of approach, but soon everyone will be forced to face this new reality. It appears we are not going to be given any choice on the matter.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> "but perhaps arguing on the timing and methods of approach"


I think the timing and methods do play a significant role going forward. 

Sure a final outcome will _likely happen_ sooner if all restrictions are dropped everywhere but at what cost? Both direct (covid cases) and indirect (delayed critical healthcare not covid related for example) impacts need to be weighed out.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> I think the timing and methods do play a significant role going forward.
> 
> Sure a final outcome will _likely happen_ sooner if all restrictions are dropped everywhere but at what cost? Both direct (covid cases) and indirect (delayed critical healthcare not covid related for example) impacts need to be weighed out.


No argument, but from reading the responses of many members on this board not all were just arguing timing and method. There are still a few thinking they, and many of the unvaccinated, can avoid this virus and IMO that just will not be the case, and that was my main point I wanted to instill from my posts.

I still think that we are wasting valuable time and putting more people at risk, with respect to waning immunity over time for our vaccinated population, in order to give further protection to the unvaccinated, who not only have not asked us for their protection but are not doing much themselves to help out on the matter.

As for the hospitals. I look at it like this. If the hospitals can handle a maximum 1000 covid patients per month and our models show that we might produce 3000 people requiring there help, one solution to that is simply to do what we can to make sure those 3000 hospitalizations happen over a minimum of 3 months and not all in 1 month. So, lets get on with it, so to speak, if we cannot avoid their infections permanently. Anyway, there are lots of ways forward, but none that keeps the virus out of our homes so lets let that sink in for a while and then start coming up with some better ideas then "run away and hide and let the virus fizzle out on its own". That's obviously not going to work.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ^ ... not going in a long-winded post. Before I had the chance to log off, here's the latest headline of those who wants the government to "respect basic human rights" or your version of "an infringement of an unwanted medical procedure (vaccination)":


I disagree with their approach, I think they should protest the officials implementing the policy, not the hospitals.
But yeah, if a public official pushes forward a policy that violates human rights, we should have protests, large ones.

Also, just to be clear, when health care workers protest hospitals, they picket at the hospital too.








Nurses picket outside Sturgeon Community Hospital: 'Looking for a fair contract'


Alberta's nurses union is drawing attention to the province's proposal to roll back nurses' wages by three per cent with an information picket at a St. Albert hospital.




edmonton.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Eder

I see that Germany will stop reporting Covid cases and only report hospitalizations like we have always done with the flu. Same thinking as Deena Hinshaw. That's the reality...its now an endemic disease that needs to stop being privy to politics & theatre.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> No argument, but from reading the responses of many members on this board not all were just arguing timing and method. There are still a few thinking they, and many of the unvaccinated, can avoid this virus and IMO that just will not be the case, and that was my main point I wanted to instill from my posts.


Nope, I dont' think that.

I simply think mandatory vaccination is an unacceptable human rights violation.
I just can't wait till someone finds out that the vaccine harms blacks more than whites or something like that.
We already have data that the vaccine side effects, particularly with AZ, affect more men than women.

Can't wait for the "racist vaccine" to catch on.

FYI, it is likely there will be a least spurious correlation there.


----------



## OptsyEagle

To recap and add to my post #4375, the issues facing us.

1) Herd Immunity will not happen - Due to the very infectious Delta variant combined with too many breakthrough infections also combined with the vaccinated transmitting the virus more then we had hoped.
2) Vaccinated people are feeling safer and because of that socializing too much, we should not expect the spread to slow down.
3) Too many adults are unvaccinated and therefore will go to the hospital and/or die, mostly during the colder months.
4) We also have to consider unvaccinated children and people where the vaccine does not protect them well. The immune compromised, the very old and frail and others of course.
5) We also have to assume that there is a very good likelihood that the vaccine efficacy may decline over time and future virus mutation may reduce how effective our vaccines will be in the future.

It is my opinion, that the vaccines are doing an awesome job of keeping us from dying and out of the hospital, for the majority of the fully vaccinated. * The only failure is that the vaccines do not stop breakthrough infections enough and still allow some level of transmission.* We also know that the efficacy of combined infection PLUS vaccination is significantly better then vaccination OR infection alone.

It is my opinion, that a combination of both vaccination and infection should fix the two problems with the vaccine. That combo should reduce infections to an insignificant number and reduce transmission also to an insignificant number. Now I can't say for sure that will happen, but from the efficacy studies already presented we know that the combination of both infection plus vaccination provides a significant improvement over either one of those alone.

*So I believe that the idea that herd immunity is beyond us, may not be true. It may still be attainable.* It is definitely beyond us if all we focus on is vaccination. But if we can start to get our vaccinated population exposed as safely as we can to the virus, it is my opinion, that we might be able to achieve herd immunity or get as close to it as we possibly can.

and that is the only thing that will save the lives of our unvaccinated and people where the vaccines are not protective, over the long term. If we were going to do this, it is also my opinion, that to delay is to possibly watch the protective benefits of the vaccine wane, putting more of our vaccinated population at risk. Therefore the time is now. I wish it wasn't, but it is. I wish we could argue about it for months and months and months, but there is a possible cost to it, is all that I am saying, and that cost isn't necessarily an unvaccinated stranger now but that cost could very well be you.


----------



## afulldeck

OptsyEagle said:


> Yeah. It looks like it is going to take people a little more time to come to grips with what all this means. I agree the way forward is not completely clear but once you finally understand that we will all eventually be exposed to this virus, the better ways forward do start to make a little more sense. Until one understands this, the only way forward will always sound like some form of lunacy.
> 
> You are starting to see this realization, although in very small amounts, by various leaders and epidemiologist around the world but I have no doubt soon many more will be talking about it. As I said, the combination of a highly infectious delta variant, a vaccine that takes the teeth out of the virus for the fully vaccinated, and the fact that the hope of herd immunity will not be possible, will start to wake everyone up as to what we can possibly do about that massive problem. The solution, unfortuneately, will not be without casualties. I wish that was not the case, but it is.
> 
> I was hoping I could give the board a little advanced notice of this, and I did notice some people starting to acknowledge these facts, but perhaps arguing on the timing and methods of approach, but soon everyone will be forced to face this new reality. It appears we are not going to be given any choice on the matter.


The reasons we are not coming to grips with this, is because of the political and public health language. Someone needs to say, on prime time TV:


Covid-19 has moved from pandemic to endemic
There will be no herd immunity 
 Your risk from getting sick are greater, if you are not vaccinated - so get vaccinated asap
We need to get back to normal and your in the way.


----------



## cainvest

afulldeck said:


> Someone needs to say, on prime time TV:


I think that's a little outdated to be honest ... I don't know many people that watch prime time TV anymore. 

The message has been loud and clear, get vaccinated. I doubt very much the people that are not vaxed will change their minds now unless given reasons to do so. We'll see how MB does now that only fully vaxed get access to restaurants, bars, etc starting today.


----------



## afulldeck

cainvest said:


> I think that's a little outdated to be honest ... I don't know many people that watch prime time TV anymore.
> 
> The message has been loud and clear, get vaccinated. I doubt very much the people that are not vaxed will change their minds now unless given reasons to do so. We'll see how MB does now that only fully vaxed get access to restaurants, bars, etc starting today.


Then the push for masks and passports should be removed from discussion. They make no sense---anymore.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Get vaccinated to get a $100 debit card!


*Who's eligible:* Albertans 18 or older who got their first or second dose of an approved COVID-19 vaccine between September 3 and October 14, 2021.
*How to register:* After vaccination, register online or by phone with your proof of vaccination, starting on September 13. Detailed instructions will be posted at that time.
*How to claim:* $100 debit cards will be delivered to you. Everyone who is registered and has a valid vaccination will receive a debit card.


----------



## damian13ster

Imho having to register online/by phone and having it delivered doesn't help the homeless population, or poor people that need to exert some effort to get those resources


----------



## damian13ster

Scientists not backing Covid jabs for 12 to 15-year-olds


But 200,000 extra children with underlying conditions will now be eligible for two doses.



www.bbc.com





Crickets from CBC


----------



## afulldeck

damian13ster said:


> Scientists not backing Covid jabs for 12 to 15-year-olds
> 
> 
> But 200,000 extra children with underlying conditions will now be eligible for two doses.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crickets from CBC


Doesn't match the current Canadian narrative.


----------



## Synergy

afulldeck said:


> The reasons we are not coming to grips with this, is because of the political and public health language. Someone needs to say, on prime time TV:
> 
> 
> Covid-19 has moved from pandemic to endemic
> There will be no herd immunity
> Your risk from getting sick are greater, if you are not vaccinated - so get vaccinated asap
> We need to get back to normal and your in the way.


You forgot #5. No vaccine, no hospital care. No vaccine, no government support, no job, etc.

Everyone needs to roll up their sleeve and take one for the team. Seems fair to me.


----------



## andrewf

cainvest said:


> It is a simple matter of numbers ... if hospitalizations are low, remove restrictions. If hospitalizations rise, add restrictions .. and ones people will follow. Forcing masks indoors for Thanksgiving will get maybe 1% compliance where requiring masks for stores will get 99% compliance.


I think the guidance for Thanksgiving will be more around gathering limits and encouraging unvaccinated not to attend.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> COVID-19 Spike Protein May Change Cells In The Heart
> 
> 
> Researchers have found a concerning link between certain heart cells and the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. The spike protein
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.iflscience.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How does it affect decision to mandate introduction of spike protein into your organism?


It's going to happen either way.


----------



## andrewf

afulldeck said:


> Your right @OpstyEagle Covid-19 cannot be stopped. Vaccinated or not, there will be no herd immunity the virus is now endemic. All this posture with masks, vaccine passports and the like are medical and political theater.
> 
> A breakdown from the UK. Pretty straight forward.


Unless we plan to stop treating those infected with COVID 19 in hospital if they need it, we still need to manage the rate of spread.


----------



## afulldeck

Synergy said:


> You forgot #5. No vaccine, no hospital care. No vaccine, no government support, no job, etc.
> 
> Everyone needs to roll up their sleeve and take one for the team. Seems fair to me.


Don't disagree...


----------



## afulldeck

andrewf said:


> Unless we plan to stop treating those infected with COVID 19 in hospital if they need it, we still need to manage the rate of spread.


Have you ever looked at heat maps of virus spreads? Your not going to manage the spread - impossible. This thing is just too infectious.


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> The research that I have posted is on spike protein damaging heart tissue.
> Not the rest of the virus.


can you provide me with a link or two.?


----------



## damian13ster

Scroll up. It has been posted


----------



## sags

Joe Rogan has cancelled appearances. No news on his current condition but his false claims about Ivermectin have created problems.

Oklahoma hospitals are reporting long lineups of people who took Ivermectin and are now in their ERs.

They are so busy they cannot attend to gun shot victims. They stress that Ivermectin is a dangerous drug.









One Hospital Denies Oklahoma Doctor's Story of Ivermectin Overdoses Causing ER Delays for Gunshot Victims


The hospital says it hasn’t experienced any care backlog due to patients overdosing on a drug that’s been falsely peddled as a covid cure




www.rollingstone.com


----------



## damian13ster

Scientists not backing Covid jabs for 12 to 15-year-olds


But 200,000 extra children with underlying conditions will now be eligible for two doses.



www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> Oklahoma hospitals are reporting long lineups of people who took Ivermectin and are now in their ERs.


They won't take a perfectly safe and effective vaccine, but they'll take a de-wormer meant for horses. Is there any accounting for such stupidity...

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> They won't take a perfectly safe and effective vaccine, but they'll take a de-wormer meant for horses. Is there any accounting for such stupidity...


Sheesh, it's an approved human drug. That's like saying "people eat ice melter"


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> Sheesh, it's an approved human drug.


Yeah, it's so safe that that they all line up at hospitals after taking it.

ltr


----------



## sags

One of the common symptoms of Ivermectin poisoning is explosive diarrhea. 

Holy mother of pearl, that wouldn't be much fun in a lineup at the hospital ER.

Maybe that is why treating those people is a priority over gunshot wounds.


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> Sheesh, it's an approved human drug. That's like saying "people eat ice melter"


It might as well be. 

It's approved for a specific regiment, meaning that if used for parasites, you take one dose, or maybe a few doses spaced over weeks or months. Stromectol (ivermectin) dosing, indications, interactions, adverse effects, and more

It's never been approved as a daily dose for an indeterminate length of time. So people saying it's safe haven't a clue about pharmaceuticals. Every drug can kill you depending on the dosage. Ivermectin has been characterized and well defined to be used to deal with certain parasites. That hasn't happened yet for covid. So people saying that it's safe because it's been FDA approved for other applications are clueless.


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, it's so safe that that they all line up at hospitals after taking it.
> 
> ltr


They are taking it improperly.

Ever hear of fentanyl, wonderful drug. Much better than morphine.

But some people seem to want to abuse it.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> They are taking it improperly.


Exactly. If they had take the safe and effective vaccine instead, the does would have been professionally metered out. Their logic is not defendable. They find wacky unsafe cures on the internet rather than take a tested and safe vaccine because they think it's too risky?

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> Exactly. If they had take the safe and effective vaccine instead, the does would have been professionally metered out. Their logic is not defendable. They find wacky unsafe cures on the internet rather than take a tested and safe vaccine because they think it's too risky?
> 
> ltr


Firstly the vaccine isn't a treatment, it's a preventative measure.
Very different.

Also some people, like Joe Rogan, got vaccinated, and took ivermectin. So your logic is flawed.

Or if they took the safe and effect dose of ivermectin they'd be fine too.

Also a lot of the drugs they're looking at for COVID are anti-parasitics.

I think taking drugs not proven effective for COVID19 is just a thing that happens, until they find one that is proven effective.

I just think the media loves running with a story, in this case it's simply drug ODs.
There are vaccinated people who are also taking ivermectin as an experimental treatment. But they ignore them, to get the juicy headline.


----------



## sags

There is no safe and effective dose of Ivermectin for covid.


----------



## Spudd

How do you know Rogan is vaccinated? I can't find anything one way or the other.


----------



## MrMatt

Spudd said:


> How do you know Rogan is vaccinated? I can't find anything one way or the other.


Well he publicly disclosed he was scheduled for a vaccine, maybe he did, maybe he didn't.

Doesn't really matter, he wasn't taking the veterinary dose anyway.

He's suggested the people at risk of dying should take the vaccine, those at low risk shouldn't bother.
That's a completely reasonable stand at the individual level.

Also since the current vaccines don't seem to stop the spread, the public health case doesn't make much sense either.


----------



## sags

Apparently he had a miracle healing. On Friday he announced he tested negative for covid.









Joe Rogan tests negative for COVID-19 days after virus reveal


The “Joe Rogan Experience” podcast host took to Instagram on Friday to reveal that he did in fact, test negative for the virus after previously claiming the opposite.




nypost.com


----------



## sags

Personally, I couldn't care less if Rogan takes Ivermectin or eats 100 packages of fish sticks.......under the belief it will heal him.

I do have a problem with people like him posting nonsense on social media and hiding behind "freedom of speech" laws to avoid any responsibility or liability for what he promotes to millions of gullible people.

It is long past time people should be able to be held accountable and challenged in civil court for what they promote.


----------



## gibor365

Ontario health experts are telling that in October we may have 9,000 + cases per day or may have less than 500 🤣. They will be correct in any outcome 😁


----------



## sags

Vaccinations doubled per day around here, after the announcements on mandatory vaccination.

It is mostly young student adults. There were long lineups at a pop up clinic.

Funny how they suddenly had no problems getting vaccinated when they learned they couldn't go to the pubs without it.

If more people get vaccinated, we could be down at the lower end of the estimates. If not.........it could get really ugly.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Vaccinations doubled per day around here, after the announcements on mandatory vaccination.
> 
> It is mostly young student adults. There were long lineups at a pop up clinic.
> 
> Funny how they suddenly had no problems getting vaccinated when they learned they couldn't go to the pubs without it.
> 
> If more people get vaccinated, we could be down at the lower end of the estimates. If not.........it could get really ugly.


Vaccination practically doesn’t help. Israeli Data showed that of the serious cases being admitted to hospital, around 60 per cent of patients were people who had been fully vaccinated,


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Personally, I couldn't care less if Rogan takes Ivermectin or eats 100 packages of fish sticks.......under the belief it will heal him.
> 
> I do have a problem with people like him posting nonsense on social media and hiding behind "freedom of speech" laws to avoid any responsibility or liability for what he promotes to millions of gullible people.
> 
> *It is long past time people should be able to be held accountable and challenged in civil court for what they promote.*


 ... gonna to be very difficult as no one held a gun to the heads of his flock of sheep. At this point, I think the majority of the population can differentiate from/on those who has a propensity for the same likeness.


----------



## Beaver101

Unvaccinated Ontario teachers must submit to twice weekly COVID-19 testing: ministry memo

The details are out - let's see how long unvaccinated-teachers (in Ontario) can endure on this "twice-a-week" testing regime. [Oh, what PITA fun.]


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Sheesh, it's an approved human drug. That's like saying "people eat ice melter"


It is meant to be taken by prescription. People treating themselves with internet pills or apple-flavoured gel meant for horses are criminally stupid.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Also some people, like Joe Rogan, got vaccinated


Did he? I didn't see any definitive confirmation of this.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> It is meant to be taken by prescription. People treating themselves with internet pills or apple-flavoured gel meant for horses are criminally stupid.


Yes, lots of criminally stupid, but there is more than enough of that to go around.


----------



## MrMatt

Interesting though on ivermectin.
88k prescriptions/week, but only 1k calls to poison control

Seems like it's way less than 1% OD rate.









High Ivermectin Overdosages Caused 1,143 Calls to America's Poison Control Centers This Year - Slashdot


America's poison control centers are getting more calls this year from people who tried self-medicating with ivermectin, NPR reports — with at least 592 calls coming since July 1: According to the National Poison Data System, which collects information from the nation's 55 poison control cent...



science.slashdot.org






One of the more interesting comments was
"Warfarin is often prescribed as a blood thinner. It is also used in rat poison. It is not a good idea to pop rat poison instead of getting your warfarin in properly controlled doses at the pharmacy."

Which is interesting as I know a man who is on warfarin, who thought it was hilarious because it was his rat poison of choice.


----------



## sags

I was on warfarin for years for atrial fibrillation. Nasty stuff that requires constant blood tests to monitor the levels.

I switched to better medicines decades ago and eventually got the afib fixed when they came up with cardiac ablation techniques.

I don't know why anyone would still be on warfarin. Not only harmful but a good chance of bleeding to death if you get a bad cut or hemmorrage.

Tell the guy to talk to his MD or some other MD.


----------



## james4beach

Canadian public health officials (really thanks to BC's leadership) just had a huge win, though sadly it's not being reported and not being appreciated by the public.

All Canadians owe public health a big thanks from this.

Many months ago, BC's research was the basis for the argument that vaccine intervals can be lengthened. The argument was made, including through medical journal letters, that historically speaking vaccine spacing does not make much of a difference and in fact, there can be a stronger immune response with some extra delay between doses.

BC and Canada's position was supported in letters by other international medical experts. As you know it became the policy in Canada.

Now it's been vindicated. Newer studies are showing some benefit from extra delay between mRNA doses. So many of us ... myself included ... have actually ended up with stronger protection than originally believed. We are likely going to have longer lasting and more robust immunity than some Americans, who rushed and sped up their dose regimen.

When BC's experts put out that argument a few months ago, I was on board with their theory and rationale.

They were right. What's really awesome here is that we have experts in our health system *who are using their brains*, using medical theory + intuition to make strategic decisions. They are making good decisions.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> Now it's been vindicated. Newer studies are showing some benefit from extra delay between mRNA doses.


It is not going to be a game changer for Canada.
January will be the month most vaccinated will lose their protection and it won’t be much different from last winter without vaccines.
Covid Vaccines turned out to be a really profitable business for big pharma, and as I said earlier, all those trials are strongly fabricated to give you 95% of efficacy 
another marketing strategy among many. 
November 2020 news 
Analysis of the data indicates a vaccine efficacy rate of 95%




__





Pfizer and BioNTech Conclude Phase 3 Study of COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate, Meeting All Primary Efficacy Endpoints | Pfizer


Primary efficacy analysis demonstrates BNT162b2 to be 95% effective against COVID-19 beginning 28 days after the first dose; 170 confirmed cases of COVID-19 were evaluated, with 162 observed in the placebo group versus 8 in the vaccine group Efficacy was consistent across age, gender, race and...




www.pfizer.com


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> It is not going to be a game changer for Canada.
> January will be the month most vaccinated will lose their protection and it won’t be much different from last winter without vaccines.
> Covid Vaccines turned out to be a really profitable business for big pharma, and as I said earlier, all those trials are strongly fabricated to give you 95% of efficacy


You have such a negative interpretation of this situation.

Protection doesn't just expire at a fixed time. Even with reduced effectiveness, the vaccines we've already gotten are very effective against serious outcomes. There is no imminent problem here.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> You have such a negative interpretation of this situation.


“Pessimist is a well informed realist”.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> “Pessimist is a well informed realist”.


You took it from my tongue 😁


----------



## gibor365

“
The pessimist says, " Things could not get worse."

The optimist says, " Oh yes they can." “

*(originally a Soviet joke)*


----------



## gibor365

Cuba started to vaccinate 2+ and up with non-recognized vaccine








In world first, Cuba starts COVID-19 shots for toddlers


Nation is using home-grown vaccines not recognized by the World Health Organization




www.timesofisrael.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Nine of the 22 people who died from COVID-19 in Saskatchewan in August were fully vaccinated. Most of those who died despite their vaccinations were over the age of 60, as per the provincial government.


----------



## damian13ster

Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections


Background Reports of waning vaccine-induced immunity against COVID-19 have begun to surface. With that, the comparable long-term protection conferred by previous infection with SARS-CoV-2 remains unclear. Methods We conducted a retrospective observational study comparing three groups...




www.medrxiv.org


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I was on warfarin for years for atrial fibrillation. Nasty stuff that requires constant blood tests to monitor the levels.
> 
> I switched to better medicines decades ago and eventually got the afib fixed when they came up with cardiac ablation techniques.
> 
> I don't know why anyone would still be on warfarin. Not only harmful but a good chance of bleeding to death if you get a bad cut or hemmorrage.
> 
> Tell the guy to talk to his MD or some other MD.


So you took rat poison at the direction of a doctor.
Just like some people are taking antiparasitics at the direction of a doctor.

Not sure what the issue is then.


----------



## sags

No.......not my doctor. It was prescribed, and still is for patients who can't take the new medicines, by virtually every cardiologist in the world.

It isn't the same as taking your direction from some "internet doctor" advising you to take a drug unproven to be effective.

I saw a doctor interviewed who said he was fielding calls every day from patients who wanted him to prescribe Ivermectin to them.

He refused........as most doctors would. Now those people are calling their doctors demanding a medical exemption from vaccination.

No luck there either. Most doctors have ethical standards.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> No.......not my doctor. *It was prescribed, and still is for patients who can't take the new medicines*, by virtually every cardiologist in the world.


 ... Coumadin is the brand name for that too.



> It isn't the same as taking your direction from some "internet doctor" advising you to take a drug unproven to be effective.
> 
> I saw a doctor interviewed who said he was fielding calls every day from patients who wanted him to prescribe Ivermectin to them.
> 
> He refused........as most doctors would. Now those people are calling their doctors demanding a medical exemption from vaccination.
> 
> No luck there either. Most doctors have ethical standards.


 ... but some people prefer to DIYs from the internet because they're so sure about the cure ... their version of a cure. I wonder if there is an annual fee for cult membership or is it just a life cost?


----------



## Beaver101

Ontario has administered thousands of third COVID doses to the immunocompromised

This might be of interest to some(one) on this forum ... Money?


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> Ontario has administered thousands of third COVID doses to the immunocompromised
> 
> This might be of interest to some(one) on this forum ... Money?


From the sources I have looked at the third shot increases the antibody levels by 5 fold. That is a pretty strong defence against covid.


----------



## OptsyEagle

zinfit said:


> From the sources I have looked at the third shot increases the antibody levels by 5 fold. That is a pretty strong defence against covid.


5 fold for everyone or 5 fold for immune compromised?

For the rest of us, I am not sure more antibodies will reduce the breakthrough infections that much but they certainly help keep a person out of the hospital and above ground.


----------



## Eder

Well we all heard the Alberta bashing on the news lately how our hospitals are stretched to the limit.
This from our Alberta Health Services website today

*AHS has about 8,500 acute care beds across the province – 98.6 per cent of those beds are open and available for patients.
AHS has about 1,200 emergency department care spaces across the province. Of those, 98.6 per cent are open and available.*

I wonder if the CBC ever even uses a phone before printing their drivel?


----------



## Spudd

Eder said:


> Well we all heard the Alberta bashing on the news lately how our hospitals are stretched to the limit.
> This from our Alberta Health Services website today
> 
> *AHS has about 8,500 acute care beds across the province – 98.6 per cent of those beds are open and available for patients.
> AHS has about 1,200 emergency department care spaces across the province. Of those, 98.6 per cent are open and available.*
> 
> I wonder if the CBC ever even uses a phone before printing their drivel?


I don't know what they mean by "open and available" because they are cancelling surgeries in Calgary due to lack of ICU beds. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435747109773344770
Here's a CBC article about how they don't really know the answer, because AHS doesn't provide the number. But there's apparently 272 beds overall, and current reporting is showing 169 beds used by Covid patients. 


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-all-about-icus-covid-19-critical-care-1.5723342


----------



## OptsyEagle

I think you need to be cognizant of the difference between total provincial capacity and individual hospital and city capacity. Outbreaks tend to come in clusters and therefore the ICU admissions will not be equal across the province and all the hospitals. I can also imagine that the ability to transfer someone, especially in an ICU setting, would also be problematic. The other consideration one needs to factor in is the difference between maximum capacity and how long a health care setting can service that capacity. So in other words, max capacity for so many days, something less then max capacity for more days. etc. Lastly one has to factor in the difference between having a an ICU bed and having the staff to look after it.

The above understanding goes a long way in understanding the true nature of our healthcare system, its capacity and when a cry for help is a true need or just a loud amount of noise.


----------



## sags

Eder said:


> Well we all heard the Alberta bashing on the news lately how our hospitals are stretched to the limit.
> This from our Alberta Health Services website today
> 
> *AHS has about 8,500 acute care beds across the province – 98.6 per cent of those beds are open and available for patients.
> AHS has about 1,200 emergency department care spaces across the province. Of those, 98.6 per cent are open and available.*
> 
> I wonder if the CBC ever even uses a phone before printing their drivel?


That doesn't make any sense.

They say that 98% of hospital beds in Calgary are full and 96% in Edmonton.





__





AHS Facilities: ICU Updates & Temporary Space Reductions | Alberta Health Services


This page provides an update on ICU capacity as well as information on temporary service reductions




www.albertahealthservices.ca


----------



## Eder

There’s a lot of staff in acute care doing nothing if 98% of beds are not in use
Easy to redirect some of that staff to icu
Of course that’s not news worthy.


----------



## sags

You have to be careful of any numbers coming from Kenney's office. His nickname is Slippery for a reason.


----------



## Plugging Along

Eder said:


> There’s a lot of staff in acute care doing nothing if 98% of beds are not in use
> Easy to redirect some of that staff to icu
> Of course that’s not news worthy.


Not true. The staff trained in ICU have specialized training, the patient ratios are also different in ICU vs acute. The challenge right now is that ICU at capacity. Those coming in for Covid can move really rapidly in there, so that prevents others who have surgeries from getting the surgeries in case something goes wrong.

what a lot of people see is the hospital going through emergency if you are going through emergency but it’s not life and death. They are doing a great job there, we have had to be in the hopistals more than our fair share during the last year and half. What most dont see are those in ICU, it’s a whole other thing. That’s where a lot of the Covid patients are ending up.


----------



## Eder

RN is a RN, work horses of ICU, emerg & acute...same skills.


----------



## sags

No actually not the same, which is why the pay is different depending on where they work in the hospital.

My wife worked on surgery floors and the burn unit. That doesn't mean she is qualified to work in the operating room or obstetrics.

Nurses can be called in to other areas where they lack expertise, but they may do the paper work and other functions so the ICU nurses can do more critical care.

Nurses know the basics but they are also very much specialists.


----------



## Plugging Along

Eder said:


> RN is a RN, work horses of ICU, emerg & acute...same skills.


Except in acute care you will have many NAs some LPNs and a few RNs that supervise the over all section. So maybe four or five RNs will be overseeing 40 or so patients (donf know the exact ratio). In ICU you will have a much lower ratios of RNs. So taking one RN from another RN, would be servicing 10 less patients. So all of a sudden taking one RN reduces acute care by 25% capacity. There is also a minimum number of RNs that must be available even in acute care. I don’t have the exact ratios, but I don’t think I am that far off.


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> That doesn't make any sense.
> 
> They say that 98% of hospital beds in Calgary are full and 96% in Edmonton.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AHS Facilities: ICU Updates & Temporary Space Reductions | Alberta Health Services
> 
> 
> This page provides an update on ICU capacity as well as information on temporary service reductions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.albertahealthservices.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUOT





sags said:


> You have to be careful of any numbers coming from Kenney's office. His nickname is Slippery for a reason.


It is because of your constant cheap shots at people you don't like that I don't give you an ounce of credibility.


----------



## sags

How much credibility do you give the doctors in Alberta ?









Alberta doctors emotional after province’s latest COVID-19 update | Watch News Videos Online


Watch Alberta doctors emotional after province’s latest COVID-19 update Video Online, on GlobalNews.ca




globalnews.ca


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> RN is a RN, work horses of ICU, emerg & acute...same skills.


Uhh no.

A RN is like a Doctor. They'll have different specialities.

I'd suggests a psychiatrist might not be the MD you want treating COVID.
Just as a Pschyiatric nurse might not be the ideal choice to treat COVID.


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> How much credibility do you give the doctors in Alberta ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alberta doctors emotional after province’s latest COVID-19 update | Watch News Videos Online
> 
> 
> Watch Alberta doctors emotional after province’s latest COVID-19 update Video Online, on GlobalNews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


you are a long ways from Alberta and you spend to much time with your union buddies.. There has been a constant campaign against Alberta from day 1. When one looks at overall death rates from day 1 Quebec is the clear leader but Legault has the highest ratings. In every province doctors have been criticizing the measures or lack of measures in their province and have been demanding more restrictions and lockdown. I yawn when I see the national networks constantly focused on Alberta.


----------



## Eder

MrMatt said:


> Uhh no.
> 
> A RN is like a Doctor. They'll have different specialities.
> 
> I'd suggests a psychiatrist might not be the MD you want treating COVID.
> Just as a Pschyiatric nurse might not be the ideal choice to treat COVID.


That would actually be an APRN ...otherwise they all get the same education. But ya...if a RN works in ICU she would be better able to do the job than an RN from emerg and vice versa. (My brother has been an RN for decades but his specialty was a desk job running the union....still he has worked in ICU.)

btw 
Over the last year, AHS has filled more than 1,000 vacancies for registered nurses. There are approximately 1,700 more RNs working in AHS today than in 2019. But of course we are over run.


----------



## bgc_fan

Looks like Canada is starting to lose some steam in vaccinations, as those in Europe are catching up and passing.


----------



## Eder

Of those Denmark, Spain & the UK are removing mask requirements & restrictions. Germany as well although not on your list. Portugal will remove restrictions at end of this month. Canada is going in reverse it seems even though our part time teacher requires 30 million voters to comingle pretending thats safe but a anti mask rally of 100 people isn't. US doesn't really have any restrictions...65000 fans at the Ravens game.


----------



## bgc_fan

It's worth comparing the death rates. Denmark, Germany, and Portugal are the only ones with lower death rates than Canada, while US and UK are on the upswing, and Spain is on a downward.


----------



## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> It's worth comparing the death rates. Denmark, Germany, and Portugal are the only ones with lower death rates than Canada, while US and UK are on the upswing, and Spain is on a downward.
> View attachment 22157


And “ Denmark has lifted the last of its coronavirus restrictions, effectively declaring that the virus was no longer a “critical threat to society” and allowing the country to get back to a semblance of prepandemic normal.”! Amazing!
Regarding Canadian deaths numbers ... it’s very fishy , Ontario reports NOW , dozens of deaths that happened 2+ months ago ! Who knows what are real numbers?!


----------



## sags

Alberta's Health Minister Deena Hinshaw apologized for recommending removing restrictions and said the government decision led to the 4th wave crisis.

Elective and day surgeries are cancelled and doctors say the next step is only performing "life and limb" treatment.

Meanwhile nurse shortages have closed ER departments in some Alberta hospitals and raised the ICU patient per nurse ratio from 1 to 3.

Hinshaw is trying to distance herself from the Kenney government.

Removing restrictions was a disaster for Alberta.

_Hinshaw also said the messaging that emerged from the decision to lift restrictions has made it difficult to reintroduce public health measures.

"I feel very responsible for the narrative that has made it more complicated to try to put additional public health measures in place, because whether or not it was my intention, what was heard at the end of July was, 'COVID's over. We can walk away and ignore it,'" Hinshaw said.

"That has had repercussions … and I deeply regret how that has played out."_



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/deena-hinshaw-covid-alberta-fourth-wave-1.6175012


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Removing restrictions was a disaster for Alberta.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/deena-hinshaw-covid-alberta-fourth-wave-1.6175012


Without an effective vaccine, it's premature to remove restrictions pretty much anywhere.


----------



## sags

Ontario should learn from Alberta's experience and be very careful removing restrictions.

People are only kidding themselves we will get through this 4th wave and potential future ones without applying even more restrictions.

Wishing and hoping isn't going to work.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Ontario should learn from Alberta's experience and be very careful removing restrictions.
> 
> People are only kidding themselves we will get through this 4th wave and potential future ones without applying even more restrictions.
> 
> Wishing and hoping isn't going to work.


Too bad some idiot called an election during a pandemic.


----------



## sags

There have been many other elections during the pandemic, including the recent win by Conservatives in Nova Scotia.

I don't hear Conservatives complaining about that election. The US had a Presidential and Congressional election. Israel had an election.

I think we will manage, despite Elections Canada creating unnecessary problems at the polls. They are due for a shakeup there.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> There have been many other elections during the pandemic, including the recent win by Conservatives in Nova Scotia.
> 
> I don't hear Conservatives complaining about that election. The US had a Presidential and Congressional election. Israel had an election.
> 
> I think we will manage, despite Elections Canada creating unnecessary problems at the polls. They are due for a shakeup there.


Was the Nova Scotia election called by the dissolution of PM, or the scheduled election?


----------



## zinfit

bgc_fan said:


> It's worth comparing the death rates. Denmark, Germany, and Portugal are the only ones with lower death rates than Canada, while US and UK are on the upswing, and Spain is on a downward.
> View attachment 22157


A interesting chart. One positive is the overall death rate is away down compared to previous surges.


----------



## bgc_fan

zinfit said:


> A interesting chart. One positive is the overall death rate is away down compared to previous surges.


That is kind of expected with the usage of vaccines. The issue is if the deaths keep increasing. All you have to think is that if we didn't have the vaccine, you would see numbers at least 2 to 3 times as high.


----------



## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> That is kind of expected with the usage of vaccines. The issue is if the deaths keep increasing. All you have to think is that if we didn't have the vaccine, you would see numbers at least 2 to 3 times as high.


I'm not sure if those vaccines really help especially after 5-7 months... Looking at daily Ontaario stats, percentage of fully vaccinated who got virus is increasing week to week (even though the officials are playing with numbers, attributing sick with "vaccination status unknown -(still don;t get this definition) to non-vaccinated).
In Israel (who started vaccination 1st in the World), when recent wave started , also only 10-15% new cases got fully vaccinated. 2 weeks ago, they reported that already 60% fully vaccinated among new cases. And this is when about 30% of population got 3 jabs!

If Canada want to limit new cases, they need do "preemptive strike" by starting to give 2rd dose ASAP , as many people , especially old ones, got 2nd dose 6+ months ago.


----------



## bgc_fan

gibor365 said:


> I'm not sure if those vaccines really help especially after 5-7 months... Looking at daily Ontaario stats, percentage of fully vaccinated who got virus is increasing week to week (even though the officials are playing with numbers, attributing sick with "vaccination status unknown -(still don;t get this definition) to non-vaccinated).
> In Israel (who started vaccination 1st in the World), when recent wave started , also only 10-15% new cases got fully vaccinated. 2 weeks ago, they reported that already 60% fully vaccinated among new cases. And this is when about 30% of population got 3 jabs!
> 
> If Canada want to limit new cases, they need do "preemptive strike" by starting to give 2rd dose ASAP , as many people , especially old ones, got 2nd dose 6+ months ago.


It's obvious math, when more and more of the population is vaccinated, you'll start seeing more breakthroughs, even if they are a low percentage. The questions are: what demographic, and what's the result. If the breakthrough demographic consists of the most vulnerable/susceptible to covid due to age, or other health reasons, then there's little indication that giving a 3rd does to those outside of that demographic is useful. Even if there's a breakthrough, and there's a lower rate of those going to the ICU than the unvaxxed, then it looks like the vaccine is working as expected and still effective.

The ship has sailed as far as trying to limit new cases, the question is how to make sure that the most vulnerable aren't going to die when they get infected.

Let's put it this way, is the effort on getting 10% of the population their 3rd shot to increase protection from 80-90% (just making up numbers to illustrate a point), outweighs getting 20% of the population their first shot in increase their protection from 0-70%?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Apparently the lowest vaccination rates in Saskatchewan are among north American Indians, around 30-40%

if they don’t care about their life or health, why should all people in the province to return to the lockdowns? 

The Lac La Ronge Indian Band in the province’s northeast is giving $300 to every member who gets two jabs.


----------



## damian13ster

Not surprising. Natives have a very bad and very recent history with government mandated medical procedures, supposedly for the good of rest of the society. 
Now for refusing another government mandated medical procedure, after forced sterilizations, they will be punished by unemployment and further alienation from society.


----------



## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> It's obvious math, when more and more of the population is vaccinated, you'll start seeing more breakthroughs, even if they are a low percentage.


Israel practically finished vaccination in March! Last months they became the leaders again as they started to vaccinate kids 5+ and 3rd dose for 12+.
So, it's obvious that vaccines stop protecting you after 5-7 months


----------



## bgc_fan

gibor365 said:


> Israel practically finished vaccination in March! Last months they became the leaders again as they started to vaccinate kids 5+ and 3rd dose for 12+.
> So, it's obvious that vaccines stop protecting you after 5-7 months


I wouldn't say that. The breakthroughs leading to hospitalizations seem to be mostly those 60+ with comorbidities.

_The majority of these patients received two vaccine doses at least five months ago, are over the age of 60 and also have chronic illnesses known to exacerbate a coronavirus infection. They range from diabetes to heart disease and lung ailments, as well as cancers and inflammatory diseases that are treated with immune-system suppressing drugs, according to Reuters interviews with 11 doctors, health specialists and officials._

To me, that means providing a 3rd dose to those populations may make sense, but giving a 3rd dose to everyone doesn't. It's about resources, we provide a 3rd dose to people who don't really need it, or we provide 1st doses to give some protection to everyone else.

From the same article, about the younger unvaccinated:

_In contrast, “the unvaccinated COVID patients we see are young, healthy, working people and their condition deteriorates rapidly,” she said. “Suddenly they’re being put on oxygen or on a respirator.”_


----------



## Beaver101

'The next few weeks are going to be disastrous,' employment lawyer says of Ontario's vaccine certificate rollout

Where's Ford and Ms. Elliott (the lawyer, not the Health Minister) on this? The kids are back at school as with parents at work ... the gone-for-fishing season is over.


----------



## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> I wouldn't say that. The breakthroughs leading to hospitalizations seem to be mostly those 60+ with comorbidities.
> 
> _The majority of these patients received two vaccine doses at least five months ago, are over the age of 60 and also have chronic illnesses known to exacerbate a coronavirus infection. They range from diabetes to heart disease and lung ailments, as well as cancers and inflammatory diseases that are treated with immune-system suppressing drugs, according to Reuters interviews with 11 doctors, health specialists and officials._
> 
> To me, that means providing a 3rd dose to those populations may make sense, but giving a 3rd dose to everyone doesn't. It's about resources, we provide a 3rd dose to people who don't really need it, or we provide 1st doses to give some protection to everyone else.
> 
> From the same article, about the younger unvaccinated:
> 
> _In contrast, “the unvaccinated COVID patients we see are young, healthy, working people and their condition deteriorates rapidly,” she said. “Suddenly they’re being put on oxygen or on a respirator.”_


In Canada everyone could have 1st and 2nd doses long time ago, so I don’t understand what you are talking about!
Sure, Canada should have start with giving 3rd dose to 60+, however , my mom, MIL, uncle, aunt who are 75+ and had 2nd dose 6 months ago, still cannot get 3rd dose


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Saskatchewan today. once you substract kids and unvaccinated, everything looks fine. And we don’t need to wear masks in grocery stores since July.


----------



## Beaver101

White House offers Nicki Minaj call to answer COVID-19 vaccine questions

According to strip-rapper Minaj, getting the Covid-jab can give you swollen testicles with an added bonus of getting an invite to the WH ... who knew?!.


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> Saskatchewan today. once you substract kids and unvaccinated, everything looks fine.


Boy is this a misreading of the SK situation.

Look at the current stats. I agree that case numbers alone aren't necessarily important (since cases might be mild or even asymptomatic).

But click on Saskatchewan, and then hospitalizations.* SK has now hit an all time high in hospitilizations.* ICU usage is also about to hit an all time record high.

Saskatchewan is in danger of seeing the healthcare system severely impaired in the coming weeks, just like Alberta has now seen.

Alberta is in even worse shape, just slightly worse, with all time high hospitalizations AND definitely a new high in ICU usage.

This is what shitty government gets you. Those premiers Kenney and Moe have totally failed at their duty to protect the public. Absolutely shameful and people are literally dying due these men not doing their jobs.

Manitoba at least smartened up and got tougher on their policies, and you can see the good results. Unlike the neighbouring provinces, case counts are barely rising right now. I was in Winnipeg a couple weeks ago and the public is very cautious. Everyone wearing masks and acting nicely... I was very pleased with what I saw.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> This is what shitty government gets you. Those premiers Kenney and Moe have totally failed at their duty to protect the public. Absolutely shameful and people are literally dying due these men not doing their jobs.


People had a chance to get vaccinated. If they didn’t I am okay with placing them in the warehouse to free up the hospitals. 
It’s coming vaccine passports will be implemented in Saskatchewan


----------



## NewbieInvestor88

MrMatt said:


> Without an effective vaccine, it's premature to remove restrictions pretty much anywhere.


But muh rights/it's a liberal conspiracy/etc...


----------



## Ukrainiandude

This pandemic will be over one week after the government will have stopped the covid testing.


----------



## MrMatt

NewbieInvestor88 said:


> But muh rights/it's a liberal conspiracy/etc...


Yes, that's why it's a balance.

I think it's reasonable to wear a mask, it's a minor inconvenience at best, and there is literally no health risk to the person.
I think it is reasonable to minimize close contact, no more lap dances out by the airport.

I think it's reasonable to isolate symptomatic people.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Ukrainiandude said:


> This pandemic will be over one week after the government will have stopped the covid testing.


Its over once everyone is either protected by the vaccine or survives being infected with the virus. 

Then, we need to feed the media with some Trump material to change subject.


----------



## MrMatt

Mortgage u/w said:


> Its over once everyone is either protected by the vaccine or survives being infected with the virus.
> 
> Then, we need to feed the media with some Trump material to change subject.


It's over once we're not overloading hospitals.
SARS ended without a vaccine or many people being infected.

It's also possible that getting the vaccine or being infected isn't enough to offer protection.
It is going to take more than the vaccines we have today.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

MrMatt said:


> It's over once we're not overloading hospitals.
> SARS ended without a vaccine or many people being infected.
> 
> It's also possible that getting the vaccine or being infected isn't enough to offer protection.
> It is going to take more than the vaccines we have today.


SARS end was a mysterious one. It just disappeared before a vaccine was rolled out. We got lucky on that one.

We don't know what direction sars-cov2 will take. Hopefully it mysteriously disappears too, but that is not the case at this time. We have been able to develop a vaccine to protect and slow down the spread so that's all we have right now to fight this. Vaccines are not a cure, but they are greatly needed in fighting this war.

Maybe it will take more than vaccines.....or maybe it will take some more time. Best case scenario is it mutates to a less deadly virus which humans can tolerate and fight off naturally.


----------



## MrMatt

Mortgage u/w said:


> SARS end was a mysterious one. It just disappeared before a vaccine was rolled out. We got lucky on that one.


We locked down and stopped the spread.
No mystery at all.



> We don't know what direction sars-cov2 will take. Hopefully it mysteriously disappears too, but that is not the case at this time. We have been able to develop a vaccine to protect and slow down the spread so that's all we have right now to fight this. Vaccines are not a cure, but they are greatly needed in fighting this war.
> 
> Maybe it will take more than vaccines.....or maybe it will take some more time. Best case scenario is it mutates to a less deadly virus which humans can tolerate and fight off naturally.


Right now, as in March 2020, we have to stop the spread, or let it kill off who it's gonna kill off. the one thing we can do is minimize deaths by ensuring we have capacity to treat those who are infected.

We're basically still in early 2020, with some better treatments and a dramatically higher survivability rate.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

MrMatt said:


> We locked down and stopped the spread.
> No mystery at all.


Really?
We locked down in 2020 and still somewhat locked down but virus is still here.
Were we that good during the SARS epidemic that we were able to fight it with a 'lock-down' and no vaccine??


----------



## MrMatt

Mortgage u/w said:


> Really?
> We locked down in 2020 and still somewhat locked down but virus is still here.
> Were we that good during the SARS epidemic that we were able to fight it with a 'lock-down' and no vaccine??


They're different viruses.

When is the last time you were under an Ebola lockdown?


----------



## Mortgage u/w

MrMatt said:


> They're different viruses.
> 
> When is the last time you were under an Ebola lockdown?


Not sure I follow your comparison.....

SARS, sars-cov1 and sars-cov2 all derive from the Coronavirus. How is SARS that much different than sars-cov2? I'm not sure your explanation that SARS disappeared because we locked down is accurate. The lock-down helped. But I don't think its the only explanation.

SARS may have acted differently than the current strain......the fact its no longer a threat still remains somewhat of a mystery, in my opinion.


----------



## MrMatt

Mortgage u/w said:


> Not sure I follow your comparison.....
> 
> SARS, sars-cov1 and sars-cov2 all derive from the Coronavirus. How is SARS that much different than sars-cov2? I'm not sure your explanation that SARS disappeared because we locked down is accurate. The lock-down helped. But I don't think its the only explanation.
> 
> SARS may have acted differently than the current strain......the fact its no longer a threat still remains somewhat of a mystery, in my opinion.


Normal coronaviruses, ie hte common cold, are at most an annoyance, we don't seriously think about them.

SARS was highly lethal, but spread when symptomatic, so we took notice and we could contain it.

COVID19 is less lethal, with apparently an asymptomatic spread period, which is hard to contain without dramatic lockdowns.









The original Sars virus disappeared – here's why coronavirus won’t do the same


The virus that caused the original Sars no longer haunts us, but the characteristics of today’s coronavirus mean it’s unlikely to disappear in the same way.




theconversation.com


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> People had a chance to get vaccinated. If they didn’t I am okay with placing them in the warehouse to free up the hospitals.
> It’s coming vaccine passports will be implemented in Saskatchewan


Did you get your 2nd shot yet?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Mortgage u/w said:


> Its over once everyone is either protected by the vaccine or survives being infected with the virus.





MrMatt said:


> It's over once we're not overloading hospitals.
> SARS ended without a vaccine or many people being infected.


Look at other countries, Afghanistan has a similar population and 7 k covid death, no restrictions, no lockdowns, no masks, no vaccines, no icu overwhelmed, no dead corpses on streets.
canada has everything and over 27 k deaths.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> Did you get your 2nd shot yet?


Should get one before the winter as planned.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Look at other countries, Afghanistan has a similar population and 7 k covid death, no restrictions, no lockdowns, no masks, no vaccines, no icu overwhelmed, no dead corpses on streets.
> canada has everything and over 27 k deaths.


The average age in Afghanistan is lower, plus much of the population is wearing masks.


----------



## Spudd

MrMatt said:


> The average age in Afghanistan is lower, plus much of the population is wearing masks.


Plus given their political situation, I doubt that accurately reporting on covid deaths is their #1 priority.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> Plus given their political situation, I doubt that accurately reporting on covid deaths is their #1 priority.


Would not they have struggled with corpses removal and burial of corona victims?


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Would not they have struggled with corpses removal and burial of corona victims?


What corpses? why do you think they even have COVID19 deaths?

Even without vaccination Afghanistan would have very few COVID19 deaths simply due to
1. Age. Their average age is under 20
2. Mask wearing. Burqas are very popular.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> What corpses? why do you think they even have COVID19 deaths?
> 
> Even without vaccination Afghanistan would have very few COVID19 deaths simply due to
> 1. Age. Their average age is under 20
> 2. Mask wearing. Burqas are very popular.


Good point 🤣 Islamic women are always wearing burqa ... guys should be more vulnerable 😁
Maybe this is why Palestine had less cases/deaths per capita than Israel?!


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> It's over once we're not overloading hospitals.


Do not admit people without the vaccination proof to the health care facilities and stop testing for covid. Problem will be solved within a week.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Or if refusing to admit unvaccinated is undemocratic, call a referendum (best among taxpayers only), and ask a simple question 
“do you approve using your tax money to treat covid people who didn’t get vaccinated by choice?”
-yes
-no


----------



## damian13ster

No one claims it would ne undemocratic.
It would simply be illegal.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Do not admit people without the vaccination proof to the health care facilities and stop testing for covid. Problem will be solved within a week.


Actually it wouldn't work, since vaccinated people are still getting sick and dying.

Also what about those who legally can't get vaccinated? Sorry kid, you're going to have to die due to our arbitrary rules.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> Actually it wouldn't work, since vaccinated people are still getting sick and dying.
> 
> Also what about those who legally can't get vaccinated? Sorry kid, you're going to have to die due to our arbitrary rules.


Anyone who is eligible to get vaccinated, but didn’t get vaccinated willingly, can’t get admitted to the hospital if covid positive (as an alternative covid patient can be treated but the bill must be paid by the unvaccinated covid person or their relatives).


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Anyone who is eligible to get vaccinated, but didn’t get vaccinated willingly, can’t get admitted to the hospital if covid positive (as an alternative covid patient can be treated but the bill must be paid by the unvaccinated covid person or their relatives).


Okay, if you want to have two tier health care that's fine.
Just allow me to opt out of the provincial system and buy private health insurance.

Oh, and lets cut off all the drug overdoses. They did it to themselves.

Just a question, at what death rate is it okay to say that a vaccine for COVID19 is "too dangerous" for it to be mandatory.
I personally think the AZ death rate is sufficiently low that they should have continued it's use.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

damian13ster said:


> No one claims it would ne undemocratic.
> It would simply be illegal.


Not if majority voted for this and added to the constitution.
I really don’t see the problem, you don’t want to get vaccinated, your right. You get sick and need expensive treatment, just pay your bills. 
what is the big deal? Everyone is happy.


----------



## damian13ster

Ukrainiandude said:


> Not if majority voted for this and added to the constitution.
> I really don’t see the problem, you don’t want to get vaccinated, your right. You get sick and need expensive treatment, just pay your bills.
> what is the big deal? Everyone is happy.


What exactly would you add to constitution?
People who refuse to get this specific vaccine still pay for healthcare system but aren't allowed to use it?
Good luck with that  
Then you will have to change the constitution once new virus comes along? Once new vaccine comes along?

I really hope you are being facetious and using hyperbole to make your point of just how stupid that idea is


----------



## Ukrainiandude

damian13ster said:


> People who refuse to get this specific vaccine still pay for healthcare system but aren't allowed to use it?


People pay for many public services, libraries, pools, schools etc, but can’t access them without vaccinatio proof.
I don’t see any reason why I and other taxpayers have to pay for expensive treatment of someone who unvaccinated and get sick.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Ukraine 11% vaccinated 
how many of those people gonna die?
it must be painful to watch that many people unmasked, non distancing and simply enjoying their life for covid paranoidal freaks that live in constant fear.


----------



## damian13ster

Ukrainiandude said:


> People pay for many public services, libraries, pools, schools etc, but can’t access them without vaccinatio proof.
> I don’t see any reason why I and other taxpayers have to pay for expensive treatment of someone who unvaccinated and get sick.


For the same reason you pay for people who:

are obese
do drugs
smoke
get hurt doing stupid stunts
get hurt drunk driving

Because we have socialized healthcare.
If you don't want to pay for stupidity of others - choose private system. 
Do you support private healthcare?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

damian13ster said:


> Do you support private healthcare


I wish Canada has private health care system


----------



## damian13ster

Ukrainiandude said:


> I wish Canada has private health care system


And that's a fair opinion even if we disagree on that one.
The path to this isn't though to punish one stupidity and not the other while we still have social health care


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> And that's a fair opinion even if we disagree on that one.
> The path to this isn't though to punish one stupidity and not the other while we still have social health care


It's not that we "still have social health care", it's that private health care is illegal in Canada.


----------



## sags

In Ukraine only 11% of people are vaccinated ?

Wow........talk about a total abdication of leadership.

I think the "painful" part will be in many of those people's future.


----------



## kcowan

My experience with Canadian Health Care is that it is only free for the poor (Many of whom abuse it) and that there are many user pay options for those that want better access.


----------



## MrMatt

kcowan said:


> My experience with Canadian Health Care is that it is only free for the poor (Many of whom abuse it) and that there are many user pay options for those that want better access.


Well the basics are free, but drug & dental are costly.

I'm going to see a physical therapist, I've got to pay for that.


----------



## kcowan

MrMatt said:


> Well the basics are free, but drug & dental are costly.
> 
> I'm going to see a physical therapist, I've got to pay for that.


Pharmacare in BC subject to a means test which I fail. MRI requires me to go to a hospital in the off-hours.

Dental is outrageous so we use our own judgement not dentist recommendations.

Yes we use acupuncture and physio at our own expense, although they are deducitble after 3% of income which we exceed, we just focus on well-being, not government support.

We are also dual citizens for 6 months and have a GP and Cardiologist in Mexico. All deductible.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> Well the basics are free, but drug & dental are costly.
> 
> I'm going to see a physical therapist, I've got to pay for that.


And how costly is eye care! I practically couldn’t see with 1 eye and needed lenses replacement. I paid something like 6K for 1 eye! Is it free?! Yes, visits to family doctors are free and 90% of them it’s simply to get prescriptions drugs refill and requisition for some blood test. I even don’t need to discuss it with family doctor, as all data can be found on the Web


----------



## Eder

I kinda like the Mexico/USA style where I can make an appointment with a specialist without wasting months and needing a referral from a GP. (I haven't used a doc for over 30 years but my wife has)


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> And how costly is eye care! I practically couldn’t see with 1 eye and needed lenses replacement. I paid something like 6K for 1 eye! Is it free?! Yes, visits to family doctors are free and 90% of them it’s simply to get prescriptions drugs refill and requisition for some blood test. I even don’t need to discuss it with family doctor, as all data can be found on the Web


Yes...lens replacement is free, at least it was for me. I had both lenses replaced due to cataracts for free. I now have perfect vision for the first time in life.

I have also had CT scans, MRI scans, blood tests, EKGs, ehcocardiograms, angiograms, nuclear heart testing, appendix surgery, heart stents, heart albation, knee surgery, toe surgery, hemorroid surgery, ingrown toenail surgery, various sprains, breaks and illnesses, and......circumcision......all free.

Yes it's true, I became Jewish at the age of 28, and grew quite fond of hospital food over the years.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Yes...lens replacement is free, at least it was for me. I had both lenses replaced due to cataracts for free. I now have perfect vision for the first time in life.


It was free only for seniors ... now looking on another thread ... maybe it’s also not free anymore?!


----------



## sags

Gibor..........you got over 2 million bucks to spend.

You could do like Kim Kardashian and get everything replaced. Want a bigger butt ? Maybe a face lift? How about a boob job ?

Joan Rivers said she knew an old actress who had so many "lifts" that her belly button was on her forehead.

Check it out. You could be a new man.


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> It was free only for seniors ... now looking on another thread ... maybe it’s also not free anymore?!


Gibor I know this comment is "off topic" here at CMF, but with the massive amount of cash you have sitting around, you really should look at some kind of conservative investment for it. Maybe something like VCNS or even VRIF. That money could be doing a lot more for you than it is, as cash.... not urgent, just something to think about.

I'm a very conservative investor too, so I understand the hesitation to get into stocks, but the key thing is to have it MOSTLY in cash or short-term bonds, along with a tiny bit of stocks. There are ways to do this without too much risk.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Gibor..........you got over 2 million bucks to spend.
> 
> You could do like Kim Kardashian and get everything replaced. Want a bigger butt ? Maybe a face lift? How about a boob job ?
> 
> Joan Rivers said she knew an old actress who had so many "lifts" that her belly button was on her forehead.
> 
> Check it out. You could be a new man.


This is why I didn’t have problems with paying big amount for my lens replacement.... but majo of people would have such problem


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Gibor I know this comment is "off topic" here at CMF, but with the massive amount of cash you have sitting around, you really should look at some kind of conservative investment for it. Maybe something like VCNS or even VRIF. That money could be doing a lot more for you than it is, as cash.... not urgent, just something to think about.
> 
> I'm a very conservative investor too, so I understand the hesitation to get into stocks, but the key thing is to have it MOSTLY in cash or short-term bonds, along with a tiny bit of stocks. There are ways to do this without too much risk.


I always have about 60-65% in equities and 35-40% in FI , including cash (HISA + GICs). As I have accounts in 5-6 online banks /credit union, I keep my cash where I can get more from it .... I still have some GICs that pay 3.5%+ and my HISAs are paying 1.5% , not much less than VCNS and this is liquid.
Our dividend/interest income totals 60-65k per year (include some LIRAs) that I reinvest


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> Okay, if you want to have two tier health care that's fine.
> *Just allow me to opt out of the provincial system and buy private health insurance.*
> 
> Oh, and lets cut off all the drug overdoses. They did it to themselves.
> 
> Just a question, at what death rate is it okay to say that a vaccine for COVID19 is "too dangerous" for it to be mandatory.
> I personally think the AZ death rate is sufficiently low that they should have continued it's use.


This is a good idea! Opt out of provincial heath system, get tax credit and buy private one!


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> People pay for many public services, libraries, pools, schools etc, but can’t access them without vaccinatio proof.


Are you sure that people should provide proof of vaccination for places you listed?! Doubt it!
Starting next week you won't be able (without vaccination proof) to attend concerts, gyms, indoor dining, strip clubs, nightclubs etc ... you don't pay for those service up front .
There will be such rule in our Russian sauna/banya/bathhouse .... not sure though how it's posible to implement . Cannot wait when checking official will enter 120C+ banya and ask naked and drunk people for proof of vaccination LOL



> I don’t see any reason why I and other taxpayers have to pay for expensive treatment of someone who unvaccinated and get sick.


and why other taxpayers should pay for people who doing sport and get injured?! for people who drive cars and get insured?! You don't have to do those "activities".

P.S. Starting Sep 27 we are going to play indoor volleyball twice per week via Mississauga recreation department.... There is no any mention on website that all players should be fully vaccinated.


----------



## MrMatt

The issue with vaccine passports is that it's just a social pressure thing to get vaccinated.

What we really need to do is restrict people with COVID or those who were close contacts.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> What we really need to do is restrict people with COVID or those who were close contacts.


Very difficult for asymptomatic carriers. That's really why COVID is such a massive nuisance.

But yes anyone with COVID has to absolutely stay at home, it's extremely important. Or even suspected COVID.

I worry that employees (who are now back at work together) or family members could have the sniffles, sore throat, and then could still go to work ... or at home with room mates ... spread it.

Maybe there can be more emphasis on how people should be acting when it comes to gatherings. I plan to go to another city this week and visit two friends, but I told them, we need to let each other know if any of us have any cold/flu symptoms. If any of us feels even mildly sick, we can defer and meet later instead.

People have to do that with going to work, seeing family, and going out for any social activities. If you feel POTENTIALLY sick, stay home.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Very difficult for asymptomatic carriers. That's really why COVID is such a massive nuisance.
> 
> But yes anyone with COVID has to absolutely stay at home, it's extremely important. Or even suspected COVID.


Vaccine is creating a false sense of security.


----------



## Synergy

damian13ster said:


> What exactly would you add to constitution?
> People who refuse to get this specific vaccine still pay for healthcare system but aren't allowed to use it?
> Good luck with that
> Then you will have to change the constitution once new virus comes along? Once new vaccine comes along?
> 
> I really hope you are being facetious and using hyperbole to make your point of just how stupid that idea is


You could include a COVID 19 exclusion. All other healthcare services would be fair game. Instead of denying care altogether for COVID you could provide care at a cost - non-resident fee schedule, etc.

Based on all the lives lost, businesses shut down, etc. seems more than fair to me.


----------



## Synergy

MrMatt said:


> Vaccine is creating a false sense of security.


Yes. Thanks to the media, so called medical experts, politicians, etc. They didn't have much choice. Hard to convince the public otherwise.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Vaccine is creating a false sense of security.


Yes absolutely. I'm currently trying to convince my dad about this (he's over 70). Currently he thinks he's invincible, and is doing a lot of socializing.

Ongoing caution and common sense is required!


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> Yes absolutely. I'm currently trying to convince my dad about this (he's over 70). Currently he thinks he's invincible, and is doing a lot of socializing.
> 
> Ongoing caution and common sense is required!


He also has to consider how many good years he has left though.
Would you rather spend 5-10 years in lockdowns until you are 80 year old and no longer able to enjoy life, or spend the time enjoying life now fully aware of the added risk?
Give people accurate, factual information and let them make the decision


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> He also has to consider how many good years he has left though.
> Would you rather spend 5-10 years in lockdowns until you are 80 year old and no longer able to enjoy life, or spend the time enjoying life now fully aware of the added risk?
> Give people accurate, factual information and let them make the decision


Imho, James would go with 1st option 😁


----------



## Synergy

gibor365 said:


> Imho, James would go with 1st option 😁


One can be safe and still enjoy life. You don't need to stand 6" inches away from someone to communicate. Keep your distances, pick your environments, socialize in smaller groups, etc. Easy for some, hard for others.


----------



## MrMatt

Synergy said:


> Yes. Thanks to the media, so called medical experts, politicians, etc. They didn't have much choice. Hard to convince the public otherwise.


No, they could have told the truth.
I think this idea that the best course of action is to lie to the public is bad.
In a democracy it's even worse. How can we be an informed and educated citizenry if all the power structures are lying to us?
What troubles me even more is people who think it's a good idea.

They had a choice, they could have said.
The vaccine will dramatically improve your chances, and help reduce spread, which is true and known to be true all along.


----------



## Synergy

I agree. The public should be fully informed and allowed to make decisions based on unbiased information. Not based on someone else's opinion, peer pressure, ect. This does however not lend itself to the art of manipulation.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> Yes absolutely. I'm currently trying to convince my dad about this (he's over 70). Currently he thinks he's invincible, and is doing a lot of socializing.
> 
> Ongoing caution and common sense is required!


My dad is in his late 80s. He is still socializing, and plays poker at the centre with his buddies who are also all over 80 and then goes out for dinner. We questioned if this was a wise idea. His response was he will be careful, but he already lost a year and half. He figures he has less than 10 good years, probably 5 at the most, so losing 20-40% of his remaining time isn't worth it. 

He takes all the precautions, so I really can't fault him. 



damian13ster said:


> He also has to consider how many good years he has left though.
> Would you rather spend 5-10 years in lockdowns until you are 80 year old and no longer able to enjoy life, or spend the time enjoying life now fully aware of the added risk?
> Give people accurate, factual information and let them make the decision. This may go one for a long time, so we need to find ways to still live and be cautious.


This is exactly it. We give my dad any of the new information, including on variants, and he makes educated decisions (with a little influence from us)


----------



## sags

I understand your dad's attitude James, and it isn't dying that I worry about. It is the "getting there" that I don't want.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I understand your dad's attitude James, and it isn't dying that I worry about. It is the "getting there" that I don't want.


It's simple, he only has a few years left, and likely very few good years left.
#YOLO, it actually makes sense for the elderly, you're one slip or fall from being being bedridden for the rest of your life, go enjoy yourself.


----------



## OptsyEagle

This is all in the eyes of the beholder. Since the risk of the virus declines with age and mortality increases with age you will find that the risk/reward relationship for covid-19 is exactly the same for everyone.  So basically a person's decision to go on with their life or to pull back and protect themselves has little to do with age. It is a personal decision.

When I was talking about people embracing safer infections in order to boost their immune system for all the variants we have and will inevitably come to us, I rarely mentioned much about comorbidity and age. Without much thought one would say, that if one was going to embrace low exposure to the virus, a person advanced in age or with comorbidities should refrain from this. The reason I did not push that caveat is because embracing safe exposure is pretty much telling a person to go on with their life and not doing it is more the opposite. Since people advanced in age AND many with comorbidities may have a reduced life expectancy, it was obvious to me that excluding them may not be the right answer for all of them. Each person must make the decision for themselves. A compromise for this vulnerable group might be to sit back and watch how it all works out for the younger healthier groups before moving forward, but even that has observational issues that might require too much watching time and not enough doing time.

So in summary each person must decide for themselves how they will live their remaining lives with covid-19.


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> This is a good idea! Opt out of provincial heath system, get tax credit and buy private one!


Who would provide health care when the private insurer refuses to pay ?


----------



## kcowan

Last March 2020, the government of the day ordered all folks to return home asap! We said WTF? We don't trust the government. We trust at the time.scientists. We immediately began 3-layer masking in spite of Tam's advice then.

So far, we have enjoyed 11 months in Mexico and 3 air trips. The only downside was avoiding the Trudeau mandatory hotel exposure to Covid by hiring a limo to drive from Seattle to Vancouver. (And we experienced the expensive f*ckup in home testing.)

I am an engineer by training (MASc UofT) in EngPhys, and I dont trust lawyers, politicans or doctors in that order. Our GP was the leader of eHealth and we had a good mutual respect relationship. But he appreciated that science was compromised by politics in health.

We enjoyed the last 18 months by following safe scientific practices and ignoring all the noise. We intend to continue enjoying life by continuing those practices.

(We mask outdoors in public even though BC does not require it.)


----------



## MrMatt

kcowan said:


> I am an engineer by training (MASc UofT) in EngPhys, and I dont trust lawyers, politicans or doctors in that order. Our GP was the leader of eHealth and we had a good mutual respect relationship. But he appreciated that science was compromised by politics in health.


I personally know people who had their research embargoed for political purposes. To be fair it was only for a few weeks, and it was to help facilitate launch of programs recommended by the research, for the benefit of all, but it happens.

Let alone the politics in awarding research funding.


----------



## Eder

Plugging Along said:


> My dad is in his late 80s. He is still socializing, and plays poker at the centre with his buddies who are also all over 80 and then goes out for dinner. We questioned if this was a wise idea. His response was he will be careful, but he already lost a year and half. He figures he has less than 10 good years, probably 5 at the most, so losing 20-40% of his remaining time isn't worth it.


This is my wife & I's attitude.Although we're only 65 we aren't ready to waste any of our quality time hiding under our beds. We follow recommended precautions but are pretty much living our regular life.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> I understand your dad's attitude James, and it isn't dying that I worry about. It is the "getting there" that I don't want.


Yeah. Who wants to spend their final days in a COVID ward of a hospital, or hooked up to tubes, etc.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Yeah. Who wants to spend their final days in a COVID ward of a hospital, or hooked up to tubes, etc.


Or sitting at home hiding from a diesease you're unlikely to get.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Or sitting at home hiding from a diesease you're unlikely to get.


Well, define "unlikely". Alberta has 911 people in hospital from covid right now. Ontario has 361 people in hospital.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Well, define "unlikely". Alberta has 911 people in hospital from covid right now. Ontario has 361 people in hospital.


Only 10% of the population of Canada has ever had COVID. Of those, less than 30k died

The odds vaccinated people dying are even lower.
I support restrictions when the hospitals are using too much capacity for COVID patients, but hopefully that time will end soon.


But lets look at the math, lets say you expect to live another 10 years, do you want to spend the next year, 10% of your life, in lockdown?
When you have a 1 in 10k chance of dying due to covid?,Thats 0.01% chance of losing 10 years, vs a 100% chance of losing 1 year. (or 0.5 years or whatever).

The match doesn't make sense if you think your risk is low.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I don't think anyone wants to be part of that only "10% (for Ontario) or the miniscule x% elsewhere" of the population who got Covid, if they can.


----------



## sags

I doubt it would take much effort to get covid if that was your goal or you don't care if you do.

Personally I have seen enough of the inside of the ER and ICU units already.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ^ I don't think anyone wants to be part of that only "10% (for Ontario) or the miniscule x% elsewhere" of the population who got Covid, if they can.


Nor anyone wants to be a victim of a plane crash. Yet people still fly.
It is all about probabilities, which Mr. Matt summarized really well


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I doubt it would take much effort to get covid if that was your goal or you don't care if you do.
> 
> Personally I have seen enough of the inside of the ER and ICU units already.


There is a big difference between trying to get covid, taking no precautions, and taking basic precautions.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Nor anyone wants to be a victim of a plane crash. Yet people still fly.
> It is all about probabilities, which Mr. Matt summarized really well


 ... and so does people driving.... always the strawman's diversion response.

If you care to re-read my comment, it ends with ", if you can", meaning I wasn't talking about stats (additional hint: "howevever miniscule"), I was talking about prevention from getting Covid which is within your control. 

Plane / auto crashes are out of your control (entirely too) unless you happen to be the the nutty pilot/driver or terrorist on board.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... and so does people driving.... always the strawman's diversion response.
> 
> If you care to re-read my comment, it ends with ", if you can", meaning I wasn't talking about stats (additional hint: "howevever miniscule"), I was talking about prevention from getting Covid which is within your control.
> 
> Plane / auto crashes are out of your control (entirely too) unless you happen to be the the nutty pilot/driver or terrorist on board.


They can. The question is at what cost and at what sacrifice. That's where the statistics come in.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... and so does people driving.... always the strawman's diversion response.
> 
> If you care to re-read my comment, it ends with ", if you can", meaning I wasn't talking about stats (additional hint: "howevever miniscule"), I was talking about prevention from getting Covid which is within your control.
> 
> Plane / auto crashes are out of your control (entirely too) unless you happen to be the the nutty pilot/driver or terrorist on board.


I disagree, you fly reputable airlines in safe areas, or drive reasonably in safer areas, maybe take a defensive driving course.
I personally fly first world airlines, stay away from warzones, and avoid high accident high traffic areas when I drive. I've also taken a defensive driving course, don't drink and drive (not a drop, I personally advocate for the death penalty for drunk driving.).

Plane/auto crashes aren't quite as "out of your control" as you think.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I disagree, you fly reputable airlines in safe areas, or drive reasonably in safer areas, maybe take a defensive driving course.
> I personally fly first world airlines, stay away from warzones, and avoid high accident high traffic areas when I drive.
> 
> Plane/auto crashes aren't quite as "out of your control" as you think.


 ... okay, cut out the auto crashes - drunking can be within your control but flying in a plane (non prop/Cessna types) as a "regular=average Joe visiting grandma or as a tourist" passenger?


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... okay, cut out the auto crashes - drunking can be within your control but flying in a plane (non prop/Cessna types) as a "regular=average Joe visiting grandma or as a tourist" passenger?


Yes, don't book travel through/near active war zones.
Don't fly third world airlines (or US airlines with bad safety records)

How many airline accidents aren't the result of known poor airline safety or flying into conflict zones?

I actually think this conversation shows a fundamentally different mindset between us.
I actively take responsibility and look for things under my control. You reject responsibility and look for all the ways you're not in control. 
We look at a situation, I feel empowered, you feel powerless.

I think that's the fundamental political difference here.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> They can. The question is at what cost and at what sacrifice. That's where the statistics come in.


 ... (straight) repeat: I'm not/don't care to talk about "stats". 

MrMatt was saying your chances of getting Covid is about 10%, small meaning not large meaning it's insignificant. I say no one (add now: "sane enough") wants to be part of that 10% if they can - ie. they take the necessary (even basic "known") precautions meaning it's within their control. Then you go diverting about taking chances of dying in a passenger plane crash - is that within your control? 2 different analogies.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Yes, don't book travel through/near active war zones.
> Don't fly third world airlines (or US airlines with bad safety records)
> 
> How many airline accidents aren't the result of known poor airline safety or flying into conflict zones?


 ... why would any "average Joe" even be flying in active war zones plus booking with a NeverHeardOf airline?


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... why would any "average Joe" even be booking/flying in active war zones plus booking with a NeverHeardOf airline?


I don't know why, but many do.
However if you don't do that, you're not likely to die on an airplane.
Even if you do, you're still not likely to die on an airplane, they're very safe.

You said plane crashes are out of your control. I disagree, you can easily avoid most plane crashes, while still flying on planes.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I don't know why, but many do.
> However if you don't do that, you're not likely to die on an airplane.


 ... you mean if you "do" that, the chance of dying from a plane crashes is next to nothing.



> Even if you do, you're still not likely to die on an airplane, they're very safe.


 ... I would hope so unless it's a NeverHeardOf airline.



> You said plane crashes are out of your control. I disagree, you can easily avoid most plane crashes, while still flying on planes.


 ... you just stated the obvious in your post #4554 - avoid war zones and NeverHeardOf airlines.

Still major commercial passengers planes like the 737Max crashed - no fault of the passengers onboard. Could they have prevented that? Unlike Covid - there're prevention methods of 1. not acquiring it, and 2. not dying if you start with 1. first. Whereas with the 737Max, can you not fly and then if it crashes, not dying? Latter might happen by miracle.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... you mean if you "do" that, the chance of dying from a plane crashes is next to nothing.
> 
> ... I would hope so unless it's a NeverHeardOf airline.
> 
> ... you just stated the obvious in your post #4554 - avoid war zones and NeverHeardOf airlines.
> 
> Still major commercial passengers planes like the 737Max crashed - no fault of the passengers onboard. Could they have prevented that? Unlike Covid - there're prevention methods of 1. not acquiring it, and 2. not dying if you start with 1. first. Whereas with the 737Max, can you not fly and then if it crashes, not dying? Latter might happen by miracle.


You said plane crashes are entirely out of your control.
I hold that they are not, many of the circumstances leading to plane crashes are things that are in your control.

FYI, some people who are even more risk adverse than myself refuse to fly on certain aircraft. While I consider the airline, I think they're taking it too far when they select on aircraft (for safety reasons)


----------



## kcowan

I think a rational discussion about risks cannot be held in this amateur forum, The government used fear of the unknown to assert control of their populace. I know some very intelligent people who bought into it.

It would seem that wearing masks diligently is more important than taking vaccines. Yet in BC they have backed off on masks even though highly vaxxed and ICUs are busy.


----------



## Beaver101

kcowan said:


> *I think a rational discussion about risks cannot be held in this amateur forum,.*


 ... I would agree too, only if the mathematical geniuses were able to predict the timing of a pandemic.


> The government used fear of the unknown to assert control of their populace. I know some very intelligent people who bought into it.


 ... I guess that's what make us (smart, intelligent, so-so, iffy, dumb, have your pick) humans afterall.



> It would seem that wearing masks diligently is more important than taking vaccines. *Yet in BC they have backed off on masks even though highly vaxxed and ICUs are busy.*


 ... maybe somebody has been screaming very loudly about being muzzled up over there in BC given the silver bullet has been found to end this pandemic, in public, not the ICU though.


----------



## Eder

BC has a mask mandate...what have they backed off on? 
And who would come up with 10 cent masks more important than vaccines?


----------



## kcowan

BC has flipflopped on masks:
Less than two months after removing the requirement, the B.C. government on Tuesday announced it will once again require people to wear masks in public, indoor spaces throughout the province to combat the fourth wave of COVID-19.
Another whoops!

Please pay attention!


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Video 
Police in Melbourne have made over 200 arrests and deployed capsicum spray as violent anti lockdown protests erupted A








Police in Melbourne have made over 200 arrests and deployed capsicum spray as violent anti lockdown protests erupted A


Police in Melbourne have made over 200 arrests and deployed capsicum spray as violent anti lockdown protests erupted AFP




leakreality.com




*


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Sir John Bell, regius professor of medicine at Oxford University, said Britain was "over the worst" and "should be fine" once winter has passed. He said: "If you look at the trajectory we are on, we're a lot better off than we were six months ago.
"The pressure on the NHS is largely abated. If you look at the deaths from Covid, they tend to be very elderly people, *and it's not entirely clear it was Covid that caused all those deaths.*

"So I think we're over the worst of it now." His comments came after Oxford vaccine pioneer Professor Dame Sarah Gilbert suggested the virus was likely to become weaker over time.

She said: "We normally see that viruses become less virulent as they circulate more easily and there is no reason to think we will have a more virulent version of Sars-CoV-2.


----------



## Money172375

Any 3rd dose recipients here yet?


----------



## Eder

I'll be going for mine this week. Had original in the USA last April so no record of me here. My wife will get hers as well. None of us fully vaxed snowbirds are counted in Canadian numbers .

My son in law got his the other day...he's only 45 but they gave him a 3rd one as his first shot was AZ followed by a Pfizer. He was worried about his ability to enter the USA for holidays with an AZ shot.

The good news is the USA is over the hump with Delta...numbers dropping quickly...Canada most likely is a few months behind.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Eder said:


> The good news is the USA is over the hump with Delta...numbers dropping quickly..


Over a hundred k new cases and over 2 k cadavers daily that’s hardly good news


----------



## Eder

Ukrainiandude said:


> Over a hundred k new cases and over 2 k cadavers daily that’s hardly good news


Its very good news...Covid on the ropes.









U.S. Covid Recovery Spreads as Prospects Improve in 47 States


The U.S. recovery from the latest Covid-19 wave is taking hold across the country, with cases dropping or poised to start falling in the vast majority of states.




www.bloomberg.com


----------



## Money172375

Eder said:


> I'll be going for mine this week. Had original in the USA last April so no record of me here. My wife will get hers as well. None of us fully vaxed snowbirds are counted in Canadian numbers .
> 
> My son in law got his the other day...he's only 45 but they gave him a 3rd one as his first shot was AZ followed by a Pfizer. He was worried about his ability to enter the USA for holidays with an AZ shot.
> 
> The good news is the USA is over the hump with Delta...numbers dropping quickly...Canada most likely is a few months behind.


What province is your son in?

does your province have “vaccine passports”? Some snowbirds here in ontario also haven’t informed the health unit about their US shots, and are now prevented from entering certain establishments.


----------



## zinfit

Ukrainiandude said:


> Over a hundred k new cases and over 2 k cadavers daily that’s hardly good news


The trend is going down. Florida was running at 26000 cases per day 4 weeks ago . They now around 5,000 cases per day.


----------



## zinfit

Money172375 said:


> What province is your son in?
> 
> does your province have “vaccine passports”? Some snowbirds here in ontario also haven’t informed the health unit about their US shots, and are now prevented from entering certain establishments.


i only have my USA record and that has been accepted here.


----------



## Beaver101

Opinion | Businesses thumbing their nose at the vaccine passport law may be courting legal disaster



> ... According to reporting from the Star’s Jacob Lorinc this week, an online directory called *BAD (Businesses Against Discrimination) currently lists roughly 680 businesses that refuse to ask customers for their vaccination status.*
> 
> Similarly, a *Facebook group called Ontario Businesses Against Health Pass composed of nearly 140,000 people describes itself like this: “A group for people to compile a list of businesses that believe a health passport in Ontario is unconstitutional. Your personal health status is irrelevant, and your own personal choice.*” ....


 ... excerpt from the article, I don't know why the businesses in those 2 groups(?) are (still) in business.

For a start, are they banking on the fact (or maybe it's an illusion for these owners) that there'll be more un-vaccinateds than vaccinateds attending their businesses? Can they do simple math? Duh and more duhs to follow with the insurance plus other legalities.

Actually the first question should be "Are these business owners okay with hiring un-vaccinated employees, serving the public?" Seems to be the case.

Update (8:40 pm same day): Looks like we have a winner!
Kingston bar's liquor licence suspended for breaching Reopening Act


----------



## Eder

Money172375 said:


> What province is your son in?
> 
> does your province have “vaccine passports”? Some snowbirds here in ontario also haven’t informed the health unit about their US shots, and are now prevented from entering certain establishments.


Alberta


----------



## sags

New information shows a small number of young adults getting Moderna shots suffered from some degree of heart inflammation.

Before it gets spread as misinformation dooming people who took the Moderna or plan to in the future, the inflammation is mild and the treatment is to take Advil or other ibuprofen medication.

Mild inflammation isn't much different than suffering a little heartburn after eating hot chicken wings, so no earth shattering news here.


----------



## kcowan

zinfit said:


> i only have my USA record and that has been accepted here.


Our Mexican Pfizer shots were accepted in BC and we have our BC proof.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> New information shows a small number of young adults getting Moderna shots suffered from some degree of heart inflammation.
> 
> Before it gets spread as misinformation dooming people who took the Moderna or plan to in the future, the inflammation is mild and the treatment is to take Advil or other ibuprofen medication.
> 
> Mild inflammation isn't much different than suffering a little heartburn after eating hot chicken wings, so no earth shattering news here.


Bullshit. 'Mild' my ***.
I was in fetal position for 3 days with massive lung and heart pain. Still feeling the effects today over 2 months after.
After 2nd dose of Moderna


----------



## Ukrainiandude

damian13ster said:


> Bullshit. 'Mild' my ***.
> I was in fetal position for 3 days with massive lung and heart pain. Still feeling the effects today over 2 months after.
> After 2nd dose of Moderna


Imagine what covid would have done to you.


----------



## damian13ster

Ukrainiandude said:


> Imagine what covid would have done to you.


It did absolutely nothing. Never realized I had it until antibody test.
Of course data shows it might not be the same for everyone and vast majority of people should still take the vaccine.
Saying that you are sure to get worse outcome with COVID than with vaccine, this statement is simply not true for everyone.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Imagine what covid would have done to you.


Imagine what not taking any shot, and not getting COVID would have been like.

Remember, most people haven't had COVID.

Again I took the shot, I was very sick for a day, and I think everyone should get vaccinated.

But I'm not willing to regulate peoples bodies, even if it saves lives. Which is conveniently the exact same logic that allows me to support abortion. You control your body, even if it results in the death of another person.

The thing that I think is crazy is the pro abortion, mandatory vax people.
It's okay to kill babies, because "freedom", but people can't choose to opt out because ?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> You control your body, even if it results in the death of another person.


Not until health care is privatized and everyone pays for their treatment. In that case I don’t care if you vaccinated or not. 
At the moment I have to pay for the treatment of unvaccinated and more, with my taxes.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Not until health care is privatized and everyone pays for their treatment. In that case I don’t care if you vaccinated or not.
> At the moment I have to pay for the treatment of unvaccinated and more, with my taxes.


Because I paid isn't an acceptable reason to infringe on my human rights.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> Because I paid isn't an acceptable reason to infringe on my human rights.


 Everyone is a hero and so humane rights protective, until it’s too late. 

Dr. Alexander Wong

@awong37
Person in Regina hospital. Crying. Dying. "I should have had my shots. My wife had hers. She kept telling me to get mine. I'm going to die, aren't I?" He spoke w/ family one last time before going to ICU. He told them he was so sorry. He died 3 days later, alone.


----------



## sags

I heard that Health Canada was going to authorize rich people's drugs for covid for regular folks.

I think soon we will have "the pill" and that will be the end of covid.


----------



## Eder

Money172375 said:


> Any 3rd dose recipients here yet?


Got my 3rd shot of Moderna today. No issues...Got the flu vaccine while I was there...no issues.
Applied for my $100 reward from Alberta gov incentive program. Will buy a bottle of Oban with the funds!

fwiw the Shoppers Drug Mart I used has been very busy handing out Covid shots....swarmed yesterday...about 4 people lined up today.


----------



## Money172375

My mom is under active cancer treatment and still hasn't been able to get a 3rd shot in Ontario. Lots of “I don’t know”s from her GP and oncologist.


----------



## sags

All the residents in my wife's retirement home have their 3rd vaccination. None of the employees do yet.

One of the employees left work today to get her first vaccination. She got tired of sitting in the parking lot every morning waiting for test results.

My son texted me that he got his first vax. He suffers from severe anxiety with anywhere that smells of antiseptic like clinics and hospitals. He has fainted a couple of times in the past and hurt himself. They all got told by the boss to get it done or find new jobs. He gave them a paid day off to get it done. I think he went with his pals and they would make sure he didn't hit the floor if he passed out. I wish he could get over this medicinal clinic anxiety thing.......big strong guy and all, but he can't help it. He got it done at a Shoppers Drug Mart.

The vaccine mandates are working.


----------



## sags

Money172375 said:


> My mom is under active cancer treatment and still hasn't been able to get a 3rd shot in Ontario. Lots of “I don’t know”s from her GP and oncologist.


I hope she is getting treatment as needed, and maybe they will give it to her there.


----------



## Eder

I would listen to the oncologist. Best of luck to your mom!


----------



## Ukrainiandude

my parents double vaccinated three months after second dose got sick with covid recently.
their unvaccinated neighbours had covid five months earlier. All recovered, no hospitalization.

Their neighbours asking the question what is the point of getting vaccinated? If you still going to get sick.

how I see it? Risk of Covid for normal people is greatly exaggerated, protection from vaccinated are greatly overrated. 
Good stuff for big pharma, big profits.


----------



## Eder

There are statistics in Canada that would disagree with your anecdote.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Eder said:


> There are statistics in Canada that would disagree with your anecdote.


When it comes to my family I don’t care about your made up statistics. 
Wait until you or your family get sick and it won’t be anecdotical to you.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> my parents double vaccinated three months after second dose got sick with covid recently.
> their unvaccinated neighbours had covid five months earlier. All recovered, no hospitalization.
> 
> Their neighbours asking the question what is the point of getting vaccinated? If you still going to get sick.


 ... the same old justifying question (aka excuse). Let's see how long your neighbours' luck is going to hold out ... for the duration of the pandemic with variants emergents ... a few more months? A year?



> how I see it? Risk of Covid for normal people is greatly exaggerated, protection from vaccinated are greatly overrated.


 ... what's "normal" people? So are the people who died from Covid not considered normal? Were they inferior or special that they were 'targeted' with Covid. And that the non-normal (superman/woman?) people are immune? You do realize there is/was a disclaimer ("it's not a silver bullet) put on the vaccines.



> Good stuff for big pharma, big profits.


 ... that would be a good thing if Canada has its own production line. Heck even the weeds would be profitable if enough Canadians jump on the bandwagon.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> a few more months? A year?


I don’t know. But apparently natural immunity is more robust and last longer. 


Beaver101 said:


> what's "normal" people?


I guess majority of people.
You see, in Ukraine vaccination rates are already low, majority of people don’t care about covid vaccines, don’t believe in their effectiveness, and when situations like this arise, when fully vaccinated people (minority in Ukraine) are getting sick, it doesn’t give more credit for the vaccine.
People want measles vaccines effectiveness for covid vaccines, they are not going to listen to your scientific excuses about mutations.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Another interesting observation, dad had minimal response to the vaccine and now his symptoms are relatively mild. Mother had strong response to the vaccine and here covid symptoms are more concerning. Good thing they got a good family doctor , who checks on them regularly (unfortunately she had lost a husband from covid, before the vaccines) over the phone.


----------



## bgc_fan

Looks like the whole natural immunity is oversold and that recovering from covid isn't going to necessarily give you as good a protection as the vaccine.









Fact check: No, natural immunity doesn’t replace vaccination, experts say - National | Globalnews.ca


Vaccines offer consistent protection against COVID-19 -- and unlike natural immunity, you don’t have to get sick to gain the protective benefits of a vaccine.




globalnews.ca












Antibodies elicited by mRNA-1273 vaccination bind more broadly to the receptor binding domain than do those from SARS-CoV-2 infection


Deep mutational scanning shows that the mRNA-1273 RBD-binding antibody response is less affected by single viral mutations than the infection response.




www.science.org












Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19...


This report describes COVID-19 reinfection among vaccinated and unvaccinated persons in Kentucky.




www.cdc.gov


----------



## kcowan

The jabs do not give you immunity to catching the virus. They reduce the odds of catching it and might reduce the impact. Continue to mask up if you want to avoid infection. And also to protect others.

There will be other versions if we get Delta under control. They might come from Africa.


----------



## Eder

I don't share your faith in 10 cent masks. No one wears them properly...we doff & donn them 5x / hour...they don't get changed out. They are equivalent to coughing into my elbow. I laugh pretty hard observing the average person using masks as a shield against Covid. Just get vaxxed & forget about it.


----------



## MK7GTI

Eder said:


> I don't share your faith in 10 cent masks. No one wears them properly...we doff & donn them 5x / hour...they don't get changed out. They are equivalent to coughing into my elbow. I laugh pretty hard observing the average person using masks as a shield against Covid. Just get vaxxed & forget about it.


It really is that simple. Yet we still have people yelling at each other. The government, employers, and media dividing society more and more by the day.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> When it comes to my family I don’t care about your made up statistics.
> Wait until you or your family get sick and it won’t be anecdotical to you.


Magical thinking. 

Kind of like saying 'the first five times I pulled the trigger playing Russian roulette, therefore it is safe'.


----------



## Plugging Along

Ukrainiandude said:


> my parents double vaccinated three months after second dose got sick with covid recently.
> their unvaccinated neighbours had covid five months earlier. All recovered, no hospitalization.
> 
> Their neighbours asking the question what is the point of getting vaccinated? If you still going to get sick.
> 
> how I see it? Risk of Covid for normal people is greatly exaggerated, protection from vaccinated are greatly overrated.
> Good stuff for big pharma, big profits.


As said many times, the vaccine doesn't completely stop someone from catching Covid (though it does reduce the chances), it prevent severe outcomes. My mom's home does constant rapid testing. One staff member testing positive, a visitor and their family member tested positive (two different instances according to health officials). All three fully vaccinated. The difference this time, is all of them have recovered with mild symptoms. Last time two times prior to vaccines when there were cases, 9 our 15 people died at the first out break and 4 out of 7 died the second outbreak. 

This time the cases have been contained, and the home all had their 3 dose that same week. I am sure this is due to the vaccines the much better results in reduced spread and no deaths this time. Though this is anecdotal, the information is in line with the rest of the studies. The message is vaccines will reduce (not eliminate) transmission, and you most likely won't have severe outcome if you do get it.


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> Because I paid isn't an acceptable reason to infringe on my human rights.


I do understand your logic, and it makes sense. Except what about MY right not to be infected by someone not vaccinated. They are the highest spreaders right now, am I and my family wrong for expecting a duty of care from others.


----------



## damian13ster

Plugging Along said:


> I do understand your logic, and it makes sense. Except what about MY right not to be infected by someone not vaccinated. They are the highest spreaders right now, am I and my family wrong for expecting a duty of care from others.


So you have a right not to be infected by unvaccinated? Never heard of that one
What about a right not to be infected by vaccinated? Never heard of that one either.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> I do understand your logic, and it makes sense. Except what about MY right not to be infected by someone not vaccinated. They are the highest spreaders right now, am I and my family wrong for expecting a duty of care from others.


I don't think you have the "right" not to be infected by a communicable disease.
But lets assume that you do.

If my right to have medical control of my body overrules someones right to life, with 100% certainty, I can't fathom how we would surrender medical autonomy to potentially protect someone from a very slim chance of death.

Basically almost any "it saves lives" argument to interfere with medical autonomy falls flat really fast, as long as you support abortion. If you don't support abortion, the argument for mandatory vaccinations makes more ethical sense.

To me, that's the most important part. The intersection of the pro abortion- mandatory vax groups and the anti abortion & anti vax groups. They're simultaneously holding views on both sides of the medical autonomy argument.

Secondly most of us agree that it is appropriate to restrict COVID19 positive individuals, as they present a risk.
I don't see the risk of a person who isn't COVID positive.
Vaccinated people can get COVID19 and spread it, unvaccinated people can get COVID19 and spread it.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*A long-term care home in Toronto put 36% of its staff on unpaid leave after they refused to get vaccinated, the Canadian Broadcasting Corp reported.*

so much for unemployment insurance. To bad they don’t have money to get a good layers


----------



## sags

Do vaccine mandates violate Canadians' charter rights?


One of the most commonly referenced arguments against vaccine mandates is that they violate the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, a claim legal experts say is misleading when you look at case law. CTVNews.ca breaks down the fine print of charter rights.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> *A long-term care home in Toronto put 36% of its staff on unpaid leave after they refused to get vaccinated, the Canadian Broadcasting Corp reported.*
> 
> so much for unemployment insurance. To bad they don’t have money to get a good layers


For the last (almost) 2 years, they worked as heros without a vaccine, now they're pariahs.


----------



## KaeJS

MrMatt said:


> For the last (almost) 2 years, they worked as heros without a vaccine, now they're pariahs.


Funny how that works, isn't it?


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> For the last (almost) 2 years, they worked as heros without a vaccine, now they're pariahs.


The difference being lock downs no doubt. If everything is going to open up, including long term care homes, vaccinations are needed.


----------



## sags

The threat of a variant being incubated among the un-vaccinated also remains a clear and present danger.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The threat of a variant being incubated among the un-vaccinated also remains a clear and present danger.


The threat of a variant being incubated among the vaccinated also remains a clear and present danger.



sags said:


> The difference being lock downs no doubt. If everything is going to open up, including long term care homes, vaccinations are needed.


It seems quite clear you think vaccinations are going to stop this.
I blame the government misinformation campaign.


----------



## zinfit

If the Merck anti viral covid treatment could eliminate the need for vaccines and booster shots. It a person tests positive you take it in a pill form. If covid is detected at an early stage it reduces the risk of hospitalizations by 77%. They have applied for emergency use. You can know buy rapid test kits in the USA for $20..00. If one feels like he has a symptom you take the test and if it is positive you get a prescription and take one pill per day for 5 days. If approved an excellent tool to keep covid infected people out of the hospitals.


----------



## Spudd

zinfit said:


> If the Merck anti viral covid treatment could eliminate the need for vaccines and booster shots. It a person tests positive you take it in a pill form. If covid is detected at an early stage it reduces the risk of hospitalizations by 77%. They have applied for emergency use. You can know buy rapid test kits in the USA for $20..00. If one feels like he has a symptom you take the test and if it is positive you get a prescription and take one pill per day for 5 days. If approved an excellent tool to keep covid infected people out of the hospitals.


I think it's best used in concert with the vaccines and booster shots. The vaccine reduces the risk of hospitalizations by 84.5%, vs 77% for this pill. Also, it's always better to prevent getting sick than to treat an illness. If you prevent the illness, then the person can't spread it.

I do think it is good to have such a treatment, for those who haven't been vaccinated, or for breakthrough infections. Anything that will reduce the load on our hospitals is excellent news. Hopefully it will be approved.


----------



## Eder

Its possible it could be taken as a prophylactic to Covid...which would really be useful.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

KaeJS said:


> Funny how that works, isn't it?


What is funny that incompetent people (pretend to be smart and fashionably pro vaccine) are trying to justify firing unvaccinated nurses by saying that unvaccinated nurses are transmit the covid to vaccinated people and risk their life.
Guess what, my fully vaccinated dad got infected with covid and transmitted it to my fully vaccinated mother. What are the chances?


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> What is funny that incompetent people (pretend to be smart and fashionably pro vaccine) are trying to justify firing unvaccinated nurses by saying that unvaccinated nurses are transmit the covid to vaccinated people and risk their life.
> Guess what, my fully vaccinated dad got infected with covid and transmitted it to my fully vaccinated mother. What are the chances?


Unvaccinated people have a longer duration of infectiousness, and are more likely to transmit the virus to someone else. Vaccinated people have a shorter period and are less likely to spread the virus.

_Anyone_ can spread the virus to another person, vaccinated or not. It's a difference of degree and probability of infecting another person.


----------



## KaeJS

Ukrainiandude said:


> What is funny that incompetent people (pretend to be smart and fashionably pro vaccine) are trying to justify firing unvaccinated nurses by saying that unvaccinated nurses are transmit the covid to vaccinated people and risk their life.
> Guess what, my fully vaccinated dad got infected with covid and transmitted it to my fully vaccinated mother. What are the chances?


Nothing you said surprises me.
These vaccines are AAA BS.

With that being said, I hope your parents are both OK.


----------



## OptsyEagle

KaeJS said:


> Nothing you said surprises me.
> These vaccines are AAA BS.
> 
> With that being said, I hope your parents are both OK.


A little advice KaeJS. If all you are going to do is keep wishing the observations you see indicate only what you "want" them to indicate, you might get lucky and escape harm from the virus, but that way of looking at the world will definitely kill you in the stock market.

You only need to see a single days results, with respect to infections, hospitalizations, ICUs and deaths, from any jurisdiction in the world, to know that the vaccines are certainly not AAA BS. They are very effective. Obviously you don't want that to be true but as I said, that does not change the fact that it is.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

OptsyEagle said:


> that the vaccines are certainly not AAA BS


Tell this to triple vaccinated Israeli, living in forever restrictions.
I don’t think the danger of the virus is the cause for restrictions, here the university has over 94% of fully vaccinated, and there still restrictions. Government wants more control over people and experimenting how far people (aka sheep) will let government go with restrictions, to stay in power forever. That’s all.


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> Unvaccinated people have a longer duration of infectiousness, and are more likely to transmit the virus to someone else. Vaccinated people have a shorter period and are less likely to spread the virus.
> 
> _Anyone_ can spread the virus to another person, vaccinated or not. It's a difference of degree and probability of infecting another person.


Very true with one add on. Most vaccinated won't get the virus in the first place and if in there're case that they do contact the virus it will be in there system for a much shorter period of time. Sure its possible for breakthrough cases to spread the virus but it is a much lower risk. As inexpert on the subject says image two weddings each with a 100 guests. One fully vaccinated and ne unvaccinated. One guest at each event has the Delta varies. At the unvaccinated event the Delta spreads unabated . At the vaccinated events most of the guest never get the Delta virus and for those that do the period of time it is in their systems much shorter than the unvaccinated. This is especially so if the vaccinated group had received the booster shot.


----------



## sags

The un-vaccinated are counting on the vaccinated to lower the odds of them not getting the virus.

If there were no vaccinations, everyone would eventually get the virus and then it becomes a numbers game as to how sick they get.


----------



## Money172375

Flu shots now available in Ontario. Who’s in? I wonder what brand I’ll choose…..I can’t wait to see the efficacy data. Maybe I’ll wait. I wonder what the ingredients are? Is it safe? But, I never get the flu!


----------



## OptsyEagle

Ukrainiandude said:


> Tell this to triple vaccinated Israeli, living in forever restrictions.
> I don’t think the danger of the virus is the cause for restrictions, here the university has over 94% of fully vaccinated, and there still restrictions. Government wants more control over people and experimenting how far people (aka sheep) will let government go with restrictions, to stay in power forever. That’s all.


That is quite a theory. So every government, in every part, of every continent, is doing that. WOW. And I was worried about KaeJS misinterpreting the observations he makes towards only what he wants them to indicate...but you really take the cake here with that problem.


----------



## sags

The governments are all colluding with each other and the only question is who will be the King of Kings.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

I think everyone who wants should get vaccinated (unvaccinated people should not be allowed to be admitted to the hospitals), all restrictions should be lifted, and we must go on with our lives.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Flu shots now available in Ontario. Who’s in? I wonder what brand I’ll choose…..I can’t wait to see the efficacy data. Maybe I’ll wait. I wonder what the ingredients are? Is it safe? *But, I never get the flu!*


 ... the bolded part sounds alot coming from some people I know, pre-Covid times with good possibility of resumption post-pandemic (whenever that may be). 

Anyhow, I'm in ... for whatever brand ... if they have an "Ontario" brand, that would be even better.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> I think everyone who wants should get vaccinated (*unvaccinated people should not be allowed to be admitted to the hospitals*), all restrictions should be lifted, and we must go on with our lives.


 ... the bolded part will be happening in some Ontario hospitals, particularly the major ones in Toronto (which I'm very glad to see!).

Several Ontario hospitals enact mandatory vaccination policies for visitors

Now these hospitals have to ensure that .5% un-vaccinated healthcare workers are to be dealt with permanently as stated in its published policy ... make it worth the paper it's printed on.


----------



## Plugging Along

I have concluded that idiots will be idiots. Those that are not making their decisions on science or logic, but rather emotion, or false ideology, the latter cannot be changed. 

The latest I have heard is a a dad of one of the kids on my sports team is in ICU. The whole family of many kids and his wife have been anti mask & vax, and believed that God would take care of them as Covid was over blown. This family refused to wear masked even while attended large church events, told their kids to lie by saying they were exempt, even though we had agreed to have our kids hang out on the condition they followed health rules (masking at time). Then they attended the illegal rodeo, where the kid said to mine that they were told there was no covid, then when my kid posted she got her vaccine, this kid started attacking my child on social media saying how stupid it was and that vaccines didn't work. They protested masks at the gym, and even lied on what the regulations where, and the kid would take off her mask at every chance, until she was told she would have leave and call her parents if she continued to violate the rules. We stopped any contact with them. 

The dad is in his late 40's, claimed to be perfect health (he did look pretty healthy) on his social media pages as he posted his anti vax and mask stand. I see on their social that he had a really bad 'cold' maybe flu, and then was having problems breathing, so decided to call an ambulance. He was admitted into ICU with lung bleeding in his lungs, his liver now has an infection and has gone septic. They are praying for his care as he seems to be getting better. However, 'this cold or flu' was bad, (still in denial). They are asking for support by having distraction for they kids in terms of playdates. Yet, they are still unvaccinated and want to have friends over for their many kids. 

I am torn as a person who always wants to help especially when there are kids involved, but cannot. I don't think I can look at them without asking if they have their vaccinations yet before I allow my child to see them. I don't think can refrain from saying that God gave them a vaccine they could have taken which would have had a 92% chance that the dad wouldn't be in the hospital. That the dad should get out of ICU asap (either dead or alive whatever is faster) so my other friend can reschedule his stage 4 cancer surgery. I have concluded the kindest thing I can do is just keep the thoughts to myself. If seeing their father in the hospital like this doesn't open their eyes, nothing will. I am sad for the kids because they could lose their father, and their father are raising idiots too.

I hope they will change their stance and tell their anti vax community to get vaccinated, but I see those who are loudest spreading wrong information are quietest when they can share the truth.


----------



## bgc_fan

Money172375 said:


> Flu shots now available in Ontario. Who’s in? I wonder what brand I’ll choose…..I can’t wait to see the efficacy data. Maybe I’ll wait. I wonder what the ingredients are? Is it safe? But, I never get the flu!


I'm assuming that you're being somewhat sarcastic, but it's probably Sanofi as usual being produced in Ontario.


----------



## Money172375

bgc_fan said:


> I'm assuming that you're being somewhat sarcastic, but it's probably Sanofi as usual being produced in Ontario.


3 brands available. The choices! Maybe I’ll wait a few months and see which one is best.





__





Universal Influenza Immunization Program ( <abbr title="Universal Influenza Immunization Program">UIIP</abbr>) - Ministry Programs - Health Care Profesionals - MOHLTC






www.health.gov.on.ca


----------



## Beaver101

bgc_fan said:


> I'm assuming that you're being somewhat sarcastic, but it's probably Sanofi as usual being produced in Ontario.


 ... he was and I didn't know Sanofi produces the flu vaccine and in Ontario too? I just get the shot annually as directed by my physician based on past experience, with one particularly bad/nasty bout to potentially send me to ER. Caught it at work or enroute too.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> 3 brands available. The choices! Maybe I’ll wait a few months and see which one is best.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Universal Influenza Immunization Program ( <abbr title="Universal Influenza Immunization Program">UIIP</abbr>) - Ministry Programs - Health Care Profesionals - MOHLTC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.health.gov.on.ca


 ... I never got to choose (or even knew there were brands?!). All I'm aware was the "heavier" doses (4 types of flu-strains?) are reserved for "seniors" and "folks with (serious) underlying health conditions (diabetes, cancer, etc)". I take whatever my physician recommends and have. 

Now there're brands/choices ... hmmm. Nevertheless, thanks for sharing the link.


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> *I have concluded that idiots will be idiots. *Those that are not making their decisions on science or logic, but rather emotion, or false ideology, the latter cannot be changed.
> 
> The latest I have heard is a a dad of one of the kids on my sports team is in ICU. The whole family of many kids and his wife have been anti mask & vax, and believed that God would take care of them as Covid was over blown. This family refused to wear masked even while attended large church events, told their kids to lie by saying they were exempt, even though we had agreed to have our kids hang out on the condition they followed health rules (masking at time). Then they attended the illegal rodeo, where the kid said to mine that they were told there was no covid, then when my kid posted she got her vaccine, this kid started attacking my child on social media saying how stupid it was and that vaccines didn't work. They protested masks at the gym, and even lied on what the regulations where, and the kid would take off her mask at every chance, until she was told she would have leave and call her parents if she continued to violate the rules. We stopped any contact with them.
> 
> The dad is in his late 40's, claimed to be perfect health (he did look pretty healthy) on his social media pages as he posted his anti vax and mask stand. I see on their social that he had a really bad 'cold' maybe flu, and then was having problems breathing, so decided to call an ambulance. He was admitted into ICU with lung bleeding in his lungs, his liver now has an infection and has gone septic. They are praying for his care as he seems to be getting better. However, 'this cold or flu' was bad, (still in denial). They are asking for support by having distraction for they kids in terms of playdates. Yet, they are still unvaccinated and want to have friends over for their many kids.
> 
> I am torn as a person who always wants to help especially when there are kids involved, but cannot. I don't think I can look at them without asking if they have their vaccinations yet before I allow my child to see them. I don't think can refrain from saying that God gave them a vaccine they could have taken which would have had a 92% chance that the dad wouldn't be in the hospital. That the dad should get out of ICU asap (either dead or alive whatever is faster) so my other friend can reschedule his stage 4 cancer surgery. *I have concluded the kindest thing I can do is just keep the thoughts to myself. If seeing their father in the hospital like this doesn't open their eyes, nothing will. I am sad for the kids because they could lose their father, and their father are raising idiots too.
> 
> I hope they will change their stance and tell their anti vax community to get vaccinated, but I see those who are loudest spreading wrong information are quietest when they can share the truth.*


 ... amen.


----------



## bgc_fan

Money172375 said:


> 3 brands available. The choices! Maybe I’ll wait a few months and see which one is best.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Universal Influenza Immunization Program ( <abbr title="Universal Influenza Immunization Program">UIIP</abbr>) - Ministry Programs - Health Care Profesionals - MOHLTC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.health.gov.on.ca


I always thought Sanofi was the most common one. But I guess that's my experience.



Beaver101 said:


> ... he was and I didn't know Sanofi produces the flu vaccine and in Ontario too? I just get the shot annually as directed by my physician based on past experience, with one particularly bad/nasty bout to potentially send me to ER. Caught it at work or enroute too.


Man, I really should verify these things before I post. They do have a manufacturing plant in Ontario, the former Connaught Labs that the government sold off. It looks like flu vaccines aren't actually produced there (packaged there), but they produce others. https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/projects/sanofi-pasteur/ They are building a new flu vaccine plant though, but expecting completion in 2027. https://globalnews.ca/news/7730511/canada-vaccine-sanofi-facility-ontario/


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Flu shots now available in Ontario. Who’s in? I wonder what brand I’ll choose…..I can’t wait to see the efficacy data. Maybe I’ll wait. I wonder what the ingredients are? Is it safe? But, I never get the flu!


I know you're trying to be funny but people will start arguing that now too. Sigh.

Yes I absolutely plan to get the flu shot. The big reason is that if I ever come down with symptoms, it will be a huge stress not knowing if it's influenza or covid-19. And I'd hate to have to go see a doctor / walk in clinic with influenza, in the middle of the pandemic.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

I am not planning to get a flu vaccine, a few reasons, it’s just a flu, most people muzzled, the shot is even less effective (Google cdc flu effectiveness) than corona vaccines.


----------



## KaeJS

I've never taken a flu shot in my life.

I think in my whole life I've only ever got tetanus (which is way out of date) and I got Hep C. Maybe B. Who even knows.


----------



## Eder

Flu shots are pretty ineffective but my wife & I have taken ours like good compliant Canadians
Hope we separate!


----------



## Benting

Wife and I got our senior flu shot at local Shoppers Drug Mart yesterday. Have a choice of regular or 'high dose' and we got the latter for better protection. No side effect at all after 24 hours.


----------



## sags

KaeJS said:


> I've never taken a flu shot in my life.
> 
> I think in my whole life I've only ever got tetanus (which is way out of date) and I got Hep C. Maybe B. Who even knows.


If you were a child in Canada, you have had all kinds of vaccinations, so why all the concern now ?


----------



## bgc_fan

Here's some good news for travelers to US. They are going to accept mixed vaccines now.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/u-s-canadian-travellers-mixed-vaccines-1.6213176



From the CDC Website:

_Interpretation of vaccine records: CDC has not recommended the use of heterologous (i.e., mix-and-match) primary series. However, the use of such strategies (including mixing of mRNA, adenoviral, and mRNA plus adenoviral products) is increasingly common in many countries outside of the United States. Therefore, for the purposes of interpretation of vaccination records, individuals can be considered fully vaccinated ≥2 weeks after receipt of the last dose if they have received any single dose of an FDA approved/authorized or WHO EUL approved single-dose series (i.e., Janssen), or any combination of two doses of an FDA approved/authorized or WHO emergency use listed COVID-19 two-dose series. The recommended interval between the first and second doses of FDA-approved/authorized and WHO-EUL listed vaccines varies by vaccine type. However, for purposes of interpretation of vaccine records, the second dose in a two dose heterologous series must have been received no earlier than 17 days (21 days with a 4 day grace period) after the first dose._


----------



## james4beach

bgc_fan said:


> Here's some good news for travelers to US. They are going to accept mixed vaccines now.


That's great news!


----------



## Ukrainiandude

A Documentary revealing the connection between Covid-19 >> Vaccines >> Masks >> The Banking System and The Great Reset.




__





Videos - United Freedom







www.unitedfreedom.org


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> If you were a child in Canada, you have had all kinds of vaccinations, so why all the concern now ?


Because COVID vaccines are new, rushed, and being determined to be unsafe at an unprecedented rate?
How many other vaccines are being pulled for being unsafe just months after they were issued?

Also for every other vaccine you can opt out, this one you can't.
As long as you're free to choose, there is no reason to publicly oppose it, you simply opt out and continue on your way.


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> A Documentary revealing the connection between Covid-19 >> Vaccines >> Masks >> The Banking System and The Great Reset.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Videos - United Freedom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.unitedfreedom.org


LOL, "documentary".


----------



## Spudd

MrMatt said:


> Because COVID vaccines are new, rushed, and being determined to be unsafe at an unprecedented rate?
> How many other vaccines are being pulled for being unsafe just months after they were issued?
> 
> Also for every other vaccine you can opt out, this one you can't.
> As long as you're free to choose, there is no reason to publicly oppose it, you simply opt out and continue on your way.


Of course you can opt out. You might need to find a different job, and not eat out at restaurants etc for now, but you still have the choice.


----------



## zinfit

Spudd said:


> Of course you can opt out. You might need to find a different job, and not eat out at restaurants etc for now, but you still have the choice.


negative side effects? I have looked at the reported negative effects the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines. Seems compared to other prescription drugs they score pretty positive on the safety scale


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> LOL, "documentary".


I doubt you even try watching it. I posted less than hour ago and here you are telling me that two hour long film is ”documentary“


----------



## MrMatt

Spudd said:


> Of course you can opt out. You might need to find a different job, and not eat out at restaurants etc for now, but you still have the choice.


Yeah, you just don't believe in human rights.

Like Texas and their abortion law, you can get an abortion, but there will be consequences.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Yeah, you just don't believe in human rights.
> 
> Like Texas and their abortion law, you can get an abortion, but there will be consequences.


You didn't much care for our constitutional rights last winter when you were consistent in promoting a total ban on international travel and highly critical of the Trudeau hotel prison system being too lax.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> You didn't much care for our constitutional rights last winter when you were consistent in promoting a total ban on international travel and highly critical of the Trudeau hotel prison system being too lax.


I don't think screening for infectious disease is an unreasonable restriction during a pandemic.
It has virtually zero chance of killing people

However forcing people to submit to a medical procedure, which has killed people, and several have been withdrawn as they were deemed "too risky". 
That is in my opinion an unreasonable infringement on human rights.

The really important thing is that the vaccine can have serious potentially lethal reactions.
Travel restrictions weren't killing anyone.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> I don't think screening for infectious disease is an unreasonable restriction during a pandemic.
> It has virtually zero chance of killing people
> 
> However forcing people to submit to a medical procedure, which has killed people, and several have been withdrawn as they were deemed "too risky".
> That is in my opinion an unreasonable infringement on human rights.
> 
> The really important thing is that the vaccine can have serious potentially lethal reactions.
> Travel restrictions weren't killing anyone.


Some people with covid couldn't get back to Canada for treatment and some didn't make it. Closing borders 100%% is the trademark of totalitarian societies. Sending young men to war is a far bigger risk to someone's well being then a 1 out of 3,000,000 chance of mortality from a Moderna or Pfizer shot. Anyways they still have there choice. The people who don't want to be around these people have a choice as well.


----------



## zinfit

Just did calculations. The CDC require all deaths[ regardless of whether they were connectedv to the vaccine] to be reported after vaccinations. Using round numbers 430 million covid vaccine doses have been administered in the USA. They have 8,000 cases of deaths after vaccinations. Even if the deaths are not connected they must be reported. The only deaths that they can connect to a vaccine is the J&J vaccine and that is a blood clot disorder. Even if one assumed that all these deaths were connected to the vaccines it works out to .000018 death for every million doses. The CDC does make it clear that the large majority of reported deaths were the elderly who has serious health issues.


----------



## Beaver101

Most past allergic reactions not valid reason for COVID-19 vaccine exemption: allergists

At least not in Ontario with the above newspiece.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Some people with covid couldn't get back to Canada for treatment and some didn't make it.


I am completely in favour of denying access to people who carry a lethal disease.
They pose a clear risk. They actually spread the disease.



> Closing borders 100%% is the trademark of totalitarian societies.


No, and the Canadian border never really closed anyway.



> Sending young men to war is a far bigger risk to someone's well being then a 1 out of 3,000,000 chance of mortality from a Moderna or Pfizer shot. Anyways they still have there choice. The people who don't want to be around these people have a choice as well.


Actually the risk is far higher than 1 in 3 million which is why some vaccines are not recommended for millions, and some vaccinations were pulled.


If you were hospitalized due to a negative reaction to a COVID19 vaccine, I think you have a very reasonable concern. 
Particularly with the mRNA vaccines where the second dose seems to promote stronger reactions.
There is a real risk of serious injury or death for these people, they should absolutely be allowed to opt out.

But I'll ask you, at what risk of death/serious injury should a person be allowed to opt out?
50%, 1% 1 in 10k, 1 in 100k?


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> I am completely in favour of denying access to people who carry a lethal disease.
> They pose a clear risk. They actually spread the disease.
> 
> 
> No, and the Canadian border never really closed anyway.
> 
> 
> Actually the risk is far higher than 1 in 3 million which is why some vaccines are not recommended for millions, and some vaccinations were pulled.
> 
> 
> If you were hospitalized due to a negative reaction to a COVID19 vaccine, I think you have a very reasonable concern.
> Particularly with the mRNA vaccines where the second dose seems to promote stronger reactions.
> There is a real risk of serious injury or death for these people, they should absolutely be allowed to opt out.
> 
> But I'll ask you, at what risk of death/serious injury should a person be allowed to opt out?
> 50%, 1% 1 in 10k, 1 in 100k?


Alberta has administered 4.3 million doses and have reported something like 1600 negative effects. Almost all are predictable and minor. I believe there was a couple of deaths but they are related to the well known blood clotting problem with Astrazenca. There doesn't seem a whole of data to support your great concern for hospitalizations from mRNA vaccines. The CDC data won't help your case. I should remind you that you were advocating a total closure of our borders last winter and spring. I can give Trudeau some credit for ignoring that type of advice. Fortunately no one will adopt your ideas on letting the unvaccinated o run at will and thereby promoting and spreading covid. The will of the large majority has made that decision and that is democracy in action.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Alberta has administered 4.3 million doses and have reported something like 1600 negative effects. Almost all are predictable and minor. I believe there was a couple of deaths but they are related to the well known blood clotting problem with Astrazenca. There doesn't seem a whole of data to support your great concern for hospitalizations from mRNA vaccines. The CDC data won't help your case. I should remind you that you were advocating a total closure of our borders last winter and spring. I can give Trudeau some credit for ignoring that type of advice. Fortunately no one will adopt your ideas on letting the unvaccinated o run at will and thereby promoting and spreading covid. The will of the large majority has made that decision and that is democracy in action.


Conveniently you didn't answer the question.
If a medical doctor feels that for a particular patient the risk is too high, should that be a consideration on if a medical exemption is provided.
To me, it's clear that if Pfizer dose 1 reaction puts you in the hospital, there should be a consideration for a medical exemption. If we can't agree on that, there is no point discussing this.


I never advocated a total closure.
I advocated a closure for all non-essential travel, or at least a proper quarantine, and I stick by that.

At the time we thought COVID19 had a 2 week asymptotic spread period, I think that considering the apparent 3% death rate at the time, a 2 week quarantine was pretty reasonable. 

Right now, with a negligible current death rate, I think that, hospital capacity notwithstanding, such restrictions might not be warranted.

I think people should be allowed to decide if they want to take their chances on the vaccination or taking COVID, and it seems that the policymakers simply think they can make a better decision.
They think this because they're arrogant authoritarians that can't comprehend that despite their lack of specific knowledge about any particular persons medical conditions or belief system, they still "know what's best". 

This type of thinking is exactly WHY we have recognition of modern human rights.


----------



## sags




----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> View attachment 22262


Yes, if by "internet" you mean the various Public Health agencies.


https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/epi/covid-19-aefi-report.pdf?la=en


----------



## sags

Yea......0 deaths directly attributed to vaccines, after 22 million injections of vaccines.

There were 8 deaths of people who happened to get vaccinated and the majority were elderly and had serious other health problems.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

I know people in the USA who got fully vaccinated in February March, and now getting sick as if they were unvaccinated.
In reality the vaccines are only beneficial for vaccines manufacturers.


----------



## sags

Ah....so it is a US thing. Maybe Americans are designed differently than us.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Ah....so it is a US thing. Maybe Americans are designed differently than us.


 ... the irony. I thought most Yankees are patriotic.


----------



## Eder

zinfit said:


> Alberta has administered 4.3 million doses and have reported something like 1600 negative effects.


Out of that there were probably 1500 pussies that complain about everything including an owie on their arm.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

How it can be explained?


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> How it can be explained?
> View attachment 22263
> View attachment 22264


Photoshop. Without a live link that's kind of meaningless.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> Photoshop. Without a live link that's kind of meaningless.


Really? Come on. The link is clearly visible on the print screen.
go to Canada.ca and search “grenades and tear gas”
second print screen
go to VigiAccess scroll down, agree to conditions, then search data base “Covid-19 vaccine” scroll down to ADR per year.


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> I know people in the USA who got fully vaccinated in February March, and now getting sick as if they were unvaccinated.
> In reality the vaccines are only beneficial for vaccines manufacturers.


I'm suspicious of your claims, because you've posted a lot of questionable things over the months.

I know a lot of Americans too, and I don't know anyone who's been vaccinated who caught covid. There are lots of cold viruses out there. People can catch colds, and that has nothing to do with covid.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> People can catch colds, and that has nothing to do with covid.


 The covid was confirmed by PCR.


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> Really? Come on. The link is clearly visible on the print screen.
> go to Canada.ca and search “grenades and tear gas”
> second print screen
> go to VigiAccess scroll down, agree to conditions, then search data base “Covid-19 vaccine” scroll down to ADR per year.


Ever actually clicked the link? It's dead and has nothing to do with the summary. Here's a pointer, Canada government webpages are kind of broken.
As for VigiAccess, more than likely people put in the wrong year.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I wonder which "normal" person would be looking at a government website in need of buying tear gas???? and grenades?!!! Skipped over the Vigi-whatever crap.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> Ever actually clicked the link? It's dea


Which link is dead? Both links are working fine for me.















so isn’t photoshop is it?


----------



## sags

Covid 19 wasn't discovered or given an ID name in 2016.

The VigiAccess site is open to the public and not verified data.









PolitiFact - WHO database is not proof that COVID-19 vaccines are harmful


While more than 6 billion doses of the COVID-19 vaccines have been administered to people across the globe, social media




www.politifact.com


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> Which link is dead? Both links are working fine for me.
> View attachment 22265
> View attachment 22266
> 
> so isn’t photoshop is it?


Did you actually click the first link on the Canada site, you'll see that the actual link doesn't match the summary.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> Did you actually click the first link on the Canada site, you'll see that the actual link doesn't match the summary.


 I don’t know how to explain either results. That’s why I posted two screenshots.


----------



## Spudd

Can you provide the link to your grenades screen? I went to buyandsell.gc.ca and searched grenades, and grenades and tear gas, and neither returned anything like what you showed. In any event, I would assume the "Covid-19" verbage is just a standard piece of verbage that got inserted into an old listing. 

For the VigiAccess thing, that is weird, but probably just bad data. Without seeing the raw data it's impossible for anyone to tell you. I mean, the covid vaccines didn't exist pre-2020, so clearly it's bad data. 

Why are you wondering about these things? Seems kind of random.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Ukrainiandude said:


> I know people in the USA who got fully vaccinated in February March, and now getting sick as if they were unvaccinated.
> In reality the vaccines are only beneficial for vaccines manufacturers.


I know people in the USA who got cars in February March, and now getting sick as if they weren't in a car. 
In reality, cars are only beneficial for car manufacturers.

See how ridiculous both our statements are?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> Why are you wondering about these things? Seems kind of random


 Friend of my mine forwarded that to me and asked how I can explain that. I couldn’t.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Mortgage u/w said:


> I know people in the USA who got cars in February March, and now getting sick as if they weren't in a car.
> In reality, cars are only beneficial for car manufacturers.
> 
> See how ridiculous both our statements are?


Vaccines supposed to protect against getting sick. If they are not. What is the point?


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Ukrainiandude said:


> Vaccines supposed to protect against getting sick. If they are not. What is the point?


Vaccines are not a cure. Look at them as a tool - a boost your immune system needs to help fight off a virus. 

Would you rather fight COVID with no protection?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Mortgage u/w said:


> Vaccines are not a cure.


Where did I say that the vaccine supposed to cure covid?
vaccine supposed to protect you from getting sick. But if vaccinated people are sick for 7 days and unvaccinated people are sick for a week. What is the point of it? Getting big pharma even richer?


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Ukrainiandude said:


> Where did I say that the vaccine supposed to cure covid?
> vaccine supposed to protect you from getting sick. But if vaccinated people are sick for 7 days and unvaccinated people are sick for a week. What is the point of it? Getting big pharma even richer?


Isn't a week and 7 days the same thing?

I did not say that you said a vaccine is a cure to COVID. I said you can't look at it as if it were a cure.

Vaccines ARE supposed to protect you from getting sick. And its been proven for many years, whether you believe it or not. Are they 100% effective? No. But they will sure give you a fighting chance.

Question for you: What will you do if you get Covid and need medical attention? Will you then trust the 'big, rich pharma" that will provide the meds to keep you alive?


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> Where did I say that the vaccine supposed to cure covid?
> vaccine supposed to protect you from getting sick. But if vaccinated people are sick for 7 days and unvaccinated people are sick for a week. What is the point of it? Getting big pharma even richer?


That's clearly not the case, though. 

This news article shows results from a study that show significantly less likelihood to catch the disease, lower duration of illness and less severity for those who do catch it.









COVID-19 Vaccine Reduces Severity, Length, Viral Load for Those Who Still Get Infected


People who contract COVID-19 even after vaccination are likely to have a lower viral load, experience a shorter infection time and have milder symptoms, new research finds.




news.arizona.edu





It does seem that over 6 months post vaccination, the efficacy decreases somewhat, especially in the elderly. But that is a far cry from vaccinated people being sick for 7 days and unvaccinated for a week. Here's an article that discusses many aspects of the waning immunity. Nutshell - it wanes a bit, and boosters are important after 6 months for the vulnerable. But as of yet, there's no evidence that rates of severe illness among the general vaccinated population are spiking after 6 months.









COVID vaccine immunity is waning — how much does that matter?


As debates about booster shots heat up, what’s known about the duration of vaccine-based immunity is still evolving.




www.nature.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Mortgage u/w said:


> Are they 100% effective? No. But they will sure give you a fighting chance.


What happened to
A front-runner coronavirus vaccine developed by drug giant Pfizer and German biotechnology firm BioNTech was *more than 90 percent effective at protecting people* compared with a placebo saline shot, according to an interim analysis by an independent data monitoring committee that met Sunday.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/11/09/pfizer-coronavirus-vaccine-effective/




sentiment has changed and now vaccines simply give you “a fighting chance”?

November 2020 “big vaccines news” said nothing about fighting chance, they where supposed to protect people as effective as dozens of other vaccines do.


----------



## sags

The only 100% protection against covid is not to come into contact with anyone who has it.

Full vaccination, wearing a mask, avoiding indoor settings, avoiding the unvaxxed, would come close to 100%.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Ukrainiandude said:


> What happened to
> A front-runner coronavirus vaccine developed by drug giant Pfizer and German biotechnology firm BioNTech was *more than 90 percent effective at protecting people* compared with a placebo saline shot, according to an interim analysis by an independent data monitoring committee that met Sunday.
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/11/09/pfizer-coronavirus-vaccine-effective/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sentiment has changed and now vaccines simply give you “a fighting chance”?
> 
> November 2020 “big vaccines news” said nothing about fighting chance, they where supposed to protect people as effective as dozens of other vaccines do.


Not sure how you interpret "90% effective" - I interpret it as "a fighting chance".

Number of deaths are dropping even as the restrictions become more lax. What do you attribute that to?

I get you are worried or looking for a bullet-proof solution - but there isn't and never was. The goal has always been to reduce spread and provide immunization. You can protect yourself in battle with a gun.....but it doesn't guarantee you won't get shot. You want to go to war without a gun? Good luck.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The only 100% protection against covid is not to come into contact with anyone who has it.
> 
> Full vaccination, wearing a mask, avoiding indoor settings, avoiding the unvaxxed, would come close to 100%.


Full vaccination, wearing a mask, avoiding indoor settings, avoiding the unvaxxed, avoiding werewolves would come close to 100%.

You keep saying "unvaxxed" like they are somehow the risky thing you need to avoid.
You need to avoid PEOPLE WITH COVID.

Antivax isn't something you can catch.
If the person beside you isn't vaccinated, they won't "take away" your vaccination.

Masks, distancing etc help, but there really isn't any additional risk from unvaxxed people. Or do you have studies showing that unvaxxed people who are COVID negative spread it ?


----------



## like_to_retire

I keep reading more and more articles like this one. I would bet we'll be getting a third shot soon.

_"Anyone over the age of 65, even if they got two shots of vaccine, should pretend they're not vaccinated."

"If you can't get a third shot, then you need to act like you haven't been vaccinated because you may not be protected"_

ltr


----------



## Plugging Along

Ukrainiandude said:


> Where did I say that the vaccine supposed to cure covid?
> vaccine supposed to protect you from getting sick. But if vaccinated people are sick for 7 days and unvaccinated people are sick for a week. What is the point of it? Getting big pharma even richer?


The difference is that the vaccinated people may be sick for 7 days, but with much milder symptoms, whereas the unvaccinated will be sick with more severe symptoms which may land them into ICU in a much high rate. 

It is purely anecdotal that you know someone unvaccinated and recovered from COVID. I know someone who was a perfectly healthy that is currently in ICU. 

The stats and the science say that when you get COVID, the person vaccinated has a much better chance of mild symptom. THIS is the reason to vaccinate.

Another anecdote supported by science. Pre-vaccine, about 50% of the COVID cases in my mom's care home died, since the vaccine, 0% have died.


----------



## sags

It is the unvaxxed who are filling up the hospitals with covid, and they could be walking around spreading it for days or weeks before they get sick enough to go to the ER. I don't want to be anywhere near unvaxxed people. They obviously don't care who they spread it to.


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> I keep reading more and more articles like this one. I would bet we'll be getting a third shot soon.
> 
> _"Anyone over the age of 65, even if they got two shots of vaccine, should pretend they're not vaccinated."
> 
> "If you can't get a third shot, then you need to act like you haven't been vaccinated because you may not be protected"_
> 
> ltr


I want my 3rd shot ASAP, but of course the government is controlling access, even though there is more than enough.


----------



## sags

like_to_retire said:


> I keep reading more and more articles like this one. I would bet we'll be getting a third shot soon.
> 
> _"Anyone over the age of 65, even if they got two shots of vaccine, should pretend they're not vaccinated."
> 
> "If you can't get a third shot, then you need to act like you haven't been vaccinated because you may not be protected"_
> 
> ltr


The residents in the retirement home where my wife works already received their 3rd shot weeks ago.

Reports are that delays in the 2nd shot produced higher rates of immunity, so they are likely waiting until the 3rd shot is needed.

I was hoping the boosters might just be a pill we could take every couple months or so, but it doesn't look like it.


----------



## damian13ster

Asymptomatic vaccinated spread it as much as asymptomatic unvaccinated.
The tests stop that chain and stop the spread.
Yet we are discouraging tests. What gives?


----------



## sags

Not possible or practical.

Tests show that you aren't infected at the time of the test. You could get infected 10 minutes after the test was taken.

People would have to have a constant stream of tests every time they had contact with anyone else.


----------



## Money172375

Vaccines are like soldiers in a war. They can’t stop the attack, they can’t guarantee a victory, but I’d like to have the soldiers when the attack comes.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Not possible or practical.
> 
> Tests show that you aren't infected at the time of the test. You could get infected 10 minutes after the test was taken.
> 
> People would have to have a constant stream of tests every time they had contact with anyone else.


Which is why we shouldn't let our guard down.

A clean test isn't a guarantee, vaccination isn't a guarantee either.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Plugging Along said:


> It is purely anecdotal that you know someone unvaccinated and recovered from COVID.


 My grandparents got covid and recovered from it, and they still don’t want to get vaccinated. 
Most people recover from covid uneventfully, but a few might have it hard.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Plugging Along said:


> Another anecdote supported by science.


That's right: when proving the effectiveness of vaccination should be called 95-100% effectiveness, and it is logical that when mentioning how many vaccinated people got sick - it is better to say that zero.
Are you probably hinting again at the declared efficiency of 60%, due to the Delta strain? So 60% should be called only when you justify the need for another lockdown.
Each goal has its own number, try not to confuse.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Which is why we shouldn't let our guard down.
> 
> A clean test isn't a guarantee, vaccination isn't a guarantee either.


Of course. Test isn't ideal.
It is significantly better than stopping the spread than vaccine. It catches over 91% of infections. Vaccine catches only 44%
My company does testing daily. Meanwhile vaccinated people can be walking around for week(s) spreading that **** without knowing,


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Of course. Test isn't ideal.
> It is significantly better than stopping the spread than vaccine. It catches over 91% of infections. Vaccine catches only 44%
> My company does testing daily. Meanwhile vaccinated people can be walking around for week(s) spreading that **** without knowing,


 ... wow, you must have a "rich" company to do all those "testings" and "daily" ... so as to accommodate those with the "right to be un-vaccinated". So in essence, your company would expect all its employees to show up at the workplace, first for testing, and then nose to the grind for employees with negative results. Ie. your company is not expecting nor accommodating any employees to WFH (work-from-home).

As for your second statement, that's like saying as long as the un-vaccinateds are tested every day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, they ain't spreading any sh1t unlike the vaccinateds. Okay with your hocus pocus.


----------



## Plugging Along

Ukrainiandude said:


> That's right: when proving the effectiveness of vaccination should be called 95-100% effectiveness, and it is logical that when mentioning how many vaccinated people got sick - it is better to say that zero.
> Are you probably hinting again at the declared efficiency of 60%, due to the Delta strain? So 60% should be called only when you justify the need for another lockdown.
> Each goal has its own number, try not to confuse.


I have did not hint initially, and still not again about the efficiency. Though the lower efficiency is due to Delta, the vaccine seems to have met the original strain. Try not to be confused. I have not had an mention or 'hinting' of lockdowns. Try not to confuse. 

My response was in direct response to your question (I will requote again what I was answer so, try not confuse. 



Ukrainiandude said:


> vaccine supposed to protect you from getting sick. But if vaccinated people are sick for 7 days and unvaccinated people are sick for a week. *What is the point of it?* Getting big pharma even richer?


As I have said many times, vaccine will reduce the chances of getting sick, but you are correct, the % has gone done for delta (but not to 0%) My point, please try to confuse. what to answer your question of what is the point of it (vaccine). The answer is so you are less likely to have a severe outcome. 90+% of people in the ICU are unvaccinated. The vaccine is proven to reduce the severity - so one reduces the chances significantly of dying. Try not to confuse 'significant' (90+%) with guarantee (100%)



Ukrainiandude said:


> My grandparents got covid and recovered from it, and they still don’t want to get vaccinated.
> Most people recover from covid uneventfully, but a few might have it hard.


Again anecdotal. You are right that about 97% of the people recover, but I still think almost the 5 million people who have died (most unvaccinated) would if have given a chance wished they had been vaccinated. Just because you know someone who recovered fine, there are many that have died that would have been fine if there was a vaccine. Try not to confuse anecdotes with science.

Just so there is no confusing, I am merely saying one of the points of getting a vaccine is that when you do get infected, it reduces your chances of severe outcomes like dying.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Plugging Along said:


> 90+% of people in the ICU are unvaccinated.


75% is Saskatchewan.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Plugging Along said:


> Again anecdotal.


My grandparents covid is anecdotal to you? Why? What is so funny?


----------



## Mortgage u/w

93.26% of statistics are made up.


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> My grandparents covid is anecdotal to you? Why? What is so funny?


Anecdote does not mean funny. It means a personal story.


----------



## Eder

Daily antigen testing would have ended this pandemic a year ago. Instead we wear pointless 10 cent dust masks as effective prevention.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... wow, you must have a "rich" company to do all those "testings" and "daily" ... so as to accommodate those with the "right to be un-vaccinated". So in essence, your company would expect all its employees to show up at the workplace, first for testing, and then nose to the grind for employees with negative results. Ie. your company is not expecting nor accommodating any employees to WFH (work-from-home).
> 
> As for your second statement, that's like saying as long as the un-vaccinateds are tested every day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, they ain't spreading any sh1t unlike the vaccinateds. Okay with your hocus pocus.


8$ per person per person per workday. Yes, it adds to the cost but is manageable. It keeps all of us much safer, there is very little sick days, and we don't spread COVID around.
Meanwhile untested and vaccinated people go around spreading and infecting their neighbors, families.

It is all about odds and facts. Your change of getting infected in any 3 day period is about 0.0018% in Canada (I guess for vaccinated it is around 0.0010% in any 3 day period). So add to that negative tests 4/7 days a week (4-day workweek here) with 91% of accuracy, and you are looking at pretty much zero chance of spreading.
People who were vaccinated 6 months ago have 56% chance of spreading the virus.

Math and science are great. Time to listen to them


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> Daily antigen testing would have ended this pandemic a year ago. Instead we wear pointless 10 cent dust masks as effective prevention.


The rapid tests (at least the ones used earlier) are not terribly accurate and can give wrong results. Hopefully the rapid tests will improve over time.

The masks are a proven effective defensive measure.


----------



## Eder

Perhaps if N95 masks rather than 10 cent ones are worn properly, replaced after every use,never adjusted by hand. Reality is extremely different therefore pointless , just theatre to make some people feel safer. Just my opinion and I religiously strap on my week old mask wherever required, adjusting the poor fogging fit every 2 minutes and returning into my pocket the second I get my foot out the exit, just like most people I observe.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

damian13ster said:


> 8$ per person per person per workday. Yes, it adds to the cost but is manageable. It keeps all of us much safer, there is very little sick days, and we don't spread COVID around.
> Meanwhile untested and vaccinated people go around spreading and infecting their neighbors, families.
> 
> It is all about odds and facts. Your change of getting infected in any 3 day period is about 0.0018% in Canada (I guess for vaccinated it is around 0.0010% in any 3 day period). So add to that negative tests 4/7 days a week (4-day workweek here) with 91% of accuracy, and you are looking at pretty much zero chance of spreading.
> People who were vaccinated 6 months ago have 56% chance of spreading the virus.
> 
> Math and science are great. Time to listen to them


So your theory is the rapid tests are 100% effective yet vaccines are not?

Math and science IS great........when correct data is used.


----------



## damian13ster

Mortgage u/w said:


> So your theory is the rapid tests are 100% effective yet vaccines are not?
> 
> Math and science IS great........when correct data is used.


No, they are 91% effective and vaccines are 44% effective after 6 months. They are also repeated. That means if there is 9% chance that a test misses infection, then there is only 0.81% chance that two tests do (so infection caught in less than 36h which is less than half of incubation period of the virus)
If you have other numbers to use for effectiveness against delta variant, let me know. Looking at nature of the equation and how massive the difference is in favor of testing, they won't change the outcome but it will give more accurate measure of superiority of testing


----------



## Mortgage u/w

damian13ster said:


> No, they are 91% effective and vaccines are 44% effective after 6 months. They are also repeated. That means if there is 9% chance that a test misses infection, then there is only 0.81% chance that two tests do (so infection caught in less than 36h which is less than half of incubation period of the virus)
> If you have other numbers to use for effectiveness against delta variant, let me know. Looking at nature of the equation and how massive the difference is in favor of testing, they won't change the outcome but it will give more accurate measure of superiority of testing


I repeat......96.322% of statistics are made up.


----------



## damian13ster

Mortgage u/w said:


> I repeat......96.322% of statistics are made up.


Are results of scientific studies also made up?









Performance Characteristics of a Rapid Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 Antigen Detection Assay at a Public Plaza Testing Site in San Francisco


This study examines the utility of the Abbott BinaxNOW rapid direct antigen severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 in the context of community screenin




academic.oup.com












Longitudinal Assessment of Diagnostic Test Performance Over the Course of Acute SARS-CoV-2 Infection


Adults newly infected with SARS-CoV-2 were sampled daily for saliva and nasal swab RT-qPCR, Quidel SARS Sofia antigen FIA, and viral culture. We compare test se




academic.oup.com


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> 8$ per person per person per workday. Yes, it adds to the cost but is manageable. It keeps all of us much safer, there is very little sick days, and we don't spread COVID around.


 ... assuming your $8/person/day is accurate x 10 people (small company) = $80/day x 5 business days = $400/week x 4 weeks = $1600 per month x 12 months .... does that cost sound reasonable? Versus everyone gets vaccinated (for free) with no tests required until symptoms come about in which case the employee can either pay for its own test [as who knows where he/she got infected] since vaccination has been mandated by the employer and not the tests since the employer is not going to be liable for its employee catching Covid on the job.


> Meanwhile untested and vaccinated people go around spreading and infecting their neighbors, families.


 ... right, only "tested" un-vaccinated people don't spread their germs that they caught over the weekend while visiting bars, rodeos or how about picking up their kids at kindergarten?



> It is all about odds and facts. Your change of getting infected in any 3 day period is about 0.0018% in Canada (I guess for vaccinated it is around 0.0010% in any 3 day period). So add to that negative tests 4/7 days a week (4-day workweek here) with 91% of accuracy, and you are looking at pretty much zero chance of spreading.
> People who were vaccinated 6 months ago have 56% chance of spreading the virus.
> 
> Math and science are great. Time to listen to them


 ... math and science is great here only with the way you spin it. Hocus pocus.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... assuming your $8/person/day is accurate x 10 people (small company) = $80/day x 5 business days = $400/week x 4 weeks = $1600 per month x 12 months .... does that cost sound reasonable? Versus everyone gets vaccinated (for free) with no tests required until symptoms come about in which case the employee can either pay for its own test [as who knows where he/she got infected] since vaccination has been mandated by the employer and not the tests since the employer is not going to be liable for its employee catching Covid on the job.
> ... right, only "tested" un-vaccinated people don't spread their germs that they caught over the weekend while visiting bars, rodeos or how about picking up their kids at kindergarten?
> 
> ... math and science is great here only with the way you spin it. Hocus pocus.


Depends. How much does one value safety? Clearly the company values safety enough to spend that money and make sure that employees are as safe as possible.
And testing provides much higher protection from infection spread than vaccination does.

If your company values safety less, they might not be willing to spend the money and might settle for lesser protection.


Tested unvaccinated people spread less because they know when they are infected so they can isolate.
Untested people spread more because they don't know when they are infected so they don't isolate.
It really isn't that hard to understand. Try to keep up.

it isn't a spin. i have provided scientific studies to back all the numbers. It is the truth. It is science. You just choose to ignore it. But that is simply your choice.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

damian13ster said:


> Are results of scientific studies also made up?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Performance Characteristics of a Rapid Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 Antigen Detection Assay at a Public Plaza Testing Site in San Francisco
> 
> 
> This study examines the utility of the Abbott BinaxNOW rapid direct antigen severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 in the context of community screenin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> academic.oup.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Longitudinal Assessment of Diagnostic Test Performance Over the Course of Acute SARS-CoV-2 Infection
> 
> 
> Adults newly infected with SARS-CoV-2 were sampled daily for saliva and nasal swab RT-qPCR, Quidel SARS Sofia antigen FIA, and viral culture. We compare test se
> 
> 
> 
> 
> academic.oup.com


How do you choose which 'scientific studies' to believe?



damian13ster said:


> Depends. How much does one value safety? Clearly the company values safety enough to spend that money and make sure that employees are as safe as possible.
> And testing provides much higher protection from infection spread than vaccination does.
> 
> If your company values safety less, they might not be willing to spend the money and might settle for lesser protection.


Why not also test for other infectious viruses and diseases? Why stop with Covid? .....since the company values safety...


----------



## damian13ster

Mortgage u/w said:


> How do you choose which 'scientific studies' to believe?
> 
> 
> 
> Why not also test for other infectious viruses and diseases? Why stop with Covid? .....since the company values safety...


I have no clue why they don't test for other viruses. Who cares? The topic here is Covid.
Do you have scientific studies which show that vaccines are superior than daily tests in preventing infections? If so then we can discuss which study to 'choose', but I am not aware of one.
otherwise your question is kind of pointless.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

damian13ster said:


> I have no clue why they don't test for other viruses. Who cares? The topic here is Covid.
> Do you have scientific studies which show that vaccines are superior than daily tests in preventing infections? If so then we can discuss which study to 'choose', but I am not aware of one.
> otherwise your question is kind of pointless.


I don't need a study to discuss. I have faith in the the governing bodies in charge of making the decision. They are the ones that have the experts available at their fingertips. I have faith in the medical field and experts that develop drugs and vaccines for the better of mankind.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Depends. How much does one value safety? Clearly the company values safety enough to spend that money and make sure that employees are as safe as possible.
> And testing provides much higher protection from infection spread than vaccination does.
> 
> If your company values safety less, they might not be willing to spend the money and might settle for lesser protection.


 ... since your stats are so good, tell me how many employers these days are not looking for ways to cut costs? Don't forget the 1 person-operation that can include yourself.



> Tested unvaccinated people spread less because they know when they are infected so they can isolate.


 ... by your logic here, the un-vaccinateds are the goody-goody 2 shoes as if they're going to listen to you to "isolate" because they don't want to vaccinate in the first place. "They gotta stand up for their right" motto. LMAO.



> Untested people spread more because they don't know when they are infected so they don't isolate.
> It really isn't that hard to understand. Try to keep up.


 ... talking about yourself here with your fixated mentality to spin? How can untested people spread "more" because they don't know they're infected as if you're so sure that the vaccinateds don't get symptoms. And that only the "tested" un-vaccinateds will 1. have a "lower" viral load, and 2. ever be so "obedient" to self-isolate as you say so.



> it isn't a spin. i have provided scientific studies to back all the numbers. It is the truth. It is science. You just choose to ignore it. But that is simply your choice.


 ... I never claimed to be a Covid-expert like you with the "science" and the "truth". Still hocus pocus bogus with anything coming from you, moving forward.


----------



## damian13ster

Mortgage u/w said:


> I don't need a study to discuss. I have faith in the the governing bodies in charge of making the decision. They are the ones that have the experts available at their fingertips. I have faith in the medical field and experts that develop drugs and vaccines for the better of mankind.


Those same experts also develop tests.

You can blindly have faith in politicians and don't question anything they do even if science shows their actions are detrimental from public health perspective.
Ignorance is bliss.

To beaver:
Nowhere did I say that unvaccinated are better than vaccinated. Those are your words and I don't believe them to be true.
Tested people are safer to their surroundings than untested people, regardless of vaccination status. That's a fact and only statement I am making.

I don't claim to be an expert either. That's why I don't conduct or design the studies. I read them though. I have enough math literacy to conduct statistical analysis and calculate probabilities. Nothing beyond that and I am not doing anything beyond that.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

damian13ster said:


> Those same experts also develop tests.
> 
> You can blindly have faith in politicians and don't question anything they do even if science shows their actions are detrimental from public health perspective.
> Ignorance is bliss.


Really? What is the politician's gain to not listen to the experts? You're basically saying that all the politicians in the WORLD decided to go against the medical experts and made their own decision. How crazy is that idea?


----------



## damian13ster

No I am not.
You are assuming all politicians in the world introduced vaccine mandates and discourage testing. Or don't recognize natural immunity.
That is simply not true. Significant portion of politicians in US, European Union, and pretty much all over the world recognize testing and recognize natural immunity.

If your world ends with the border of your province then we come back to the same point - ignorance is bliss.

And politicians gain political points, popularity, money, compliance. If you believe there are no ulterior motives for politician other than good of the society - yet again - ignorance


----------



## MrMatt

Mortgage u/w said:


> Really? What is the politician's gain to not listen to the experts?


There are multiple "experts" saying many different things.
It's the politicians job to decide the appropriate trade off.

We could stop COVID19 if we had the political will to.

The problem is the methods to stop COVID19 aren't acceptable to people.



> You're basically saying that all the politicians in the WORLD decided to go against the medical experts and made their own decision. How crazy is that idea?


You don't have to go that far. 

I do think that the various politicians around the world made different decisions.

There is likely a "qualified expert" who supports almost every decision being made.
Remember Dr Tam at one point said the general population didn't need masks.

Now until COVID19, it would be pretty hard to argue that Dr Tam wasn't a well qualified expert to manage the health aspects of a pandemic. In fact she is well qualified.

I think some of her statements/decisions had "political considerations".


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> Now until COVID19, it would be pretty hard to argue that Dr Tam wasn't a well qualified expert to manage the health aspects of a pandemic. In fact she is well qualified.


 Qualifications don’t matter when it comes to minority and female quota for government jobs.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Qualifications don’t matter when it comes to minority and female quota for government jobs.


You assume a racist government that actually implements racist policies.
Too bad we don't have laws prohibiting racial discrimination in Canada.


----------



## zinfit

Ukrainiandude said:


> Vaccines supposed to protect against getting sick. If they are not. What is the point?


 Alberta Health stats show that 90% of the ICU are unvaccinated. There is nothing guaranteed in like but on a balance of probabilities clearly the vaccinated have much superior protection. Other reputable authorities like the Mayo Clinic and John Hopkins only confirm this fact.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> Alberta Health stats show that 90% of the ICU are unvaccinated. There is nothing guaranteed in like but on a balance of probabilities clearly the vaccinated have much superior protection. Other reputable authorities like the Mayo Clinic and John Hopkins only confirm this fact.


No one is disputing that fact. They provide superior individual protection.
They provide inferior protection for spread. Testing is superior in stopping the spread and protecting others around you.
Individual - vaccines. Societal - testing.


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> No one is disputing that fact. They provide superior individual protection.
> They provide inferior protection for spread. Testing is superior in stopping the spread and protecting others around you.
> Individual - vaccines. Societal - testing.


Unvaccinated people's chance of getting covid is 14 times higher then the vaccinated[Mayo Clinic] . I am vaccinated and vaccinated people avoid the unvaccinated and I avoid them.. That fact in itself shows that the risk of transmission is much higher with the unvaccinated.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> Unvaccinated people's chance of getting covid is 14 times higher then the vaccinated[Mayo Clinic] . I am vaccinated and vaccinated people avoid the unvaccinated and I avoid them.. That fact in itself shows that the risk of transmission is much higher with the unvaccinated.


You got a quote for the source of that number? Doesn't pass the smell test. Even manufacturers don't claim it is that effective.
I am not saying to avoid vaccinated or unvaccinated. Your best odds is to avoid untested people.
Tested unvaccinated person is safer for you than untested vaccinated person. They aren't safer for themselves, but they are safer for you to be around. That's a fact


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Unvaccinated people's chance of getting covid is 14 times higher then the vaccinated[Mayo Clinic] .


Care to substantiate that? Or is this just more vaccine disinformation?


----------



## sags

It is surprising how immersed some people are in the conspiracy theories and misinformation about vaccines.

My wife was scheduled for 6 days off, after barely having any days off for 2 years, and on her second day she gets a phone call from work.

They sent home a full time employee who refused to get vaccinated and she now has to work the next 3 days and maybe more.

The un-vaxxed are a burden on society in many ways.

I suppose Mr. Matt and his pals want the government to pay the employee CRB benefits now.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Care to substantiate that? Or is this just more vaccine disinformation?


my source was the Mayo Clinic. I don't believe it is a source of misinformation. John Hopkins studied the national data and said the ratio for vaccinated people who tested positive and hospitalization was 11.000 to 1 and the ratio was 112 for the unvaccinated.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Care to substantiate that? Or is this just more vaccine disinformation?


It is not misinformation. I believe the ratio I referred to was in respect to the Moderna vaccine. In any event in September the CDC came up with an overall ration of 10 to 1. Cleary looking at hospitalization and ICU data the unvaccinated are away ahead of the vaccinated. In Alberta 75% of the people are fully vaccinated but 75% of the hospitalizations are the unvaccinated and 91% of the ICUs. I am fully vaccinated and I deliberately avoid the unvaccinated. Most people that I am in contact with are of the same view. Just recently the neighbour called for a plumber. When he arrived she asked if he was vaccinated and he said no. She told him he couldn't enter her home.


----------



## zinfit

zinfit said:


> Unvaccinated people's chance of getting covid is 14 times higher then the vaccinated[Mayo Clinic] . I am vaccinated and vaccinated people avoid the unvaccinated and I avoid them.. That fact in itself shows that the risk of transmission is much higher with the unvaccinated.


Yes it is incorrect. It should read 14 times for hospitalization.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

zinfit said:


> Just recently the neighbour called for a plumber. When he arrived she asked if he was vaccinated and he said no. She told him he couldn't enter her home.


She still going to get the bill. And plumbers are in the demand always.
I personally don’t discriminate people based on their vaccination status (I mind my own business), I do know a few freaks that do. 
Funny that those people before never cared for the vaccines even the flu , now joined the fashion trend.


----------



## zinfit

There is an excellent article in Atlantic dated September 23 by Craig Spencer senior medical expert at Columbia U. It is entitled No ,Vaccinate People are not" Just as Likely to spread as the unvaccinated". I don't know how to create link may-be someone can do it. He makes this issue understandable and clear.


----------



## sags

People being terminated because they refuse to be vaccinated are going to have problems finding a new job with that on their resume.


----------



## sags

People's vaccination status IS my business. I don't want to be exposed to the virus, even if the odds are very high that I would survive.

Who needs all the hassle of being infected ? 

UK scientists took a picture of the new Delta Plus variant. It is a nasty looking fella.


----------



## KaeJS

sags said:


> People's vaccination status IS my business.


It's actually not.


----------



## zinfit

KaeJS said:


> It's actually not.


It is if you want to work for my company. It becomes my business if my employees don't want to work with these people.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

zinfit said:


> It is if you want to work for my company. It becomes my business if my employees don't want to work with these people.


Whose business is that if unvaccinated people don’t want to work with vaccinated?
You must be a politician because you live to create a division among people. 
Divide and rule (Latin: divide et impera), or divide and conquer.


----------



## Plugging Along

Ukrainiandude said:


> My grandparents covid is anecdotal to you? Why? What is so funny?


Your personal story about your grandparents IS ancecdotal. *Why? * Because it is the example of an anecdote. *What is so funny? *You should 'try not to confuse' but yet you did, which shows why your anecdotes are fundamentally flawed as fact or science. Which explains a lot.


----------



## Plugging Along

Ukrainiandude said:


> 75% is Saskatchewan.


Are you sure didn't get confused? Please provide source, I couldn't find one for Saskatchewan other than it is 6x more likely to be in ICU unvaccinated, which is about 84%. 

AB has many of~92%, ON about 90%, BC was in the high 80's. These are neither funny or anecdotes.


----------



## damian13ster

Plugging Along said:


> Are you sure didn't get confused? Please provide source, I couldn't find one for Saskatchewan other than it is 6x more likely to be in ICU unvaccinated, which is about 84%.
> 
> AB has many of~92%, ON about 90%, BC was in the high 80's. These are neither funny or anecdotes.


Yes, we know. Hospitalizations are greatly reduced by vaccine. Anyone denying that denies science.
We also know tests prevent spread better than vaccines. Anyone denying that denies science.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> There is an excellent article in Atlantic dated September 23 by Craig Spencer senior medical expert at Columbia U. It is entitled No ,Vaccinate People are not" Just as Likely to spread as the unvaccinated". I don't know how to create link may-be someone can do it. He makes this issue understandable and clear.


Here's the article from The Atlantic.









No, Vaccinated People Are Not ‘Just as Likely’ to Spread the Coronavirus as Unvaccinated People


This has become a common refrain among the cautious—and it’s wrong.




www.theatlantic.com





_About the author: Craig Spencer is an emergency-medicine physician and director of global health in emergency medicine at New York Presbyterian/Columbia University Medical Center._


----------



## Beaver101

‘Alarmingly invasive:’ This Ontario mayor may have his pay docked after asking a woman online if her COVD-19 vaccine changed her menstruation

A messiah-wannabee for anti-vaxxers. Sad thing is he is actually a mayor of somewhere in Ontario, in year 2021.


----------



## Beaver101

Meanwhile ...

'An evidence-based policy that protects Ontarians:' Science table calls on Ford to mandate vaccines for healthcare workers



> _A group of scientists advising the Ford government on the COVID-19 pandemic are speaking up in favour of mandating vaccines for all healthcare workers, calling it an “evidence-based policy that protects Ontarians.”
> 
> Premier Doug Ford had written a range of experts and stakeholders last week asking for their opinions on the merits of introducing a vaccine mandate that would no longer allow unvaccinated healthcare workers to remain on the job by participating in a regular testing program._
> 
> _In a response to Ford’s letter__, released by Ontario’s Science Advisory Table on Tuesday, the doctors argue that such a mandate “can enhance safety and reduce the risk of staffing disruptions due to COVID-19."_
> 
> ...


----------



## Plugging Along

damian13ster said:


> Yes, we know. Hospitalizations are greatly reduced by vaccine. Anyone denying that denies science.
> We also know tests prevent spread better than vaccines. Anyone denying that denies science.


Sadly, many are still arguing that because you can still get COVID while vaccinated, they don't work, or provide an anecdote about some person dying. So people don't understand. 

I actually think even if you are vaccinated you should also get tested. The science is there for testing too. However, it may be more frequent for those who are not vaccinated because their viral load will build faster, so every 2 days vs maybe every 4 days for someone vaccinated.

I have my family tested on average once every other week. I am happy to have this option and believe in the science, however, it can get really expensive. The cheapest approved tests I can find in Canada is about $12 a test IF I buy a box of 25. For a business, they can buy in a larger bulk, but it's still expensive, I have been trying to find someone personally I can piggy back off of and add to their order. 

Though I would personally love to have testing more frequently, it is very expensive to do. I know a couple small businesses did mandate vaccines but said the staff member had the choice to pay for their own test every 2 days. They even allowed them to do the 'self tests' for $15 (vs pay at Shoppers $40). I think this is fair, but of course those unvaccinated said it was unfair. This is one of my issues, the unvax expect others to cater to them and solve their issue. The vaccine is free to them, if they don't want it, fine, they can pay for other alternatives. It shouldn't be the rest of society.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> I am not planning to get a flu vaccine, a few reasons, it’s just a flu, most people muzzled, the shot is even less effective (Google cdc flu effectiveness) than corona vaccines.


The whole point of younger people getting the flu vaccine is to reduce the spread to more vulnerable members of the community and family. I know caring about others seems like a foreign concept for some...


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> Here's the article from The Atlantic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Vaccinated People Are Not ‘Just as Likely’ to Spread the Coronavirus as Unvaccinated People
> 
> 
> This has become a common refrain among the cautious—and it’s wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _About the author: Craig Spencer is an emergency-medicine physician and director of global health in emergency medicine at New York Presbyterian/Columbia University Medical Center._


thank you. This should resolve the belief that the vaccinated spread the virus at the same rate as the unvaccinated.


----------



## andrewf

KaeJS said:


> I've never taken a flu shot in my life.
> 
> I think in my whole life I've only ever got tetanus (which is way out of date) and I got Hep C. Maybe B. Who even knows.


You definitely got others, like MMR, etc. if you attended school. Your bravado on avoiding vaccinations is not impressing anyone. Go ahead and get the mumps. I'm sure you don't care if you become sterile.


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> Meanwhile ...
> 
> 'An evidence-based policy that protects Ontarians:' Science table calls on Ford to mandate vaccines for healthcare workers


interesting that flu vaccinations have been mandatory for this sector for a couple of decades.


----------



## zinfit

Ukrainiandude said:


> Whose business is that if unvaccinated people don’t want to work with vaccinated?
> You must be a politician because you live to create a division among people.
> Divide and rule (Latin: divide et impera), or divide and conquer.


No it is the simple reality. We just finished our municipal elections and the candidates who had anti-vaxxer backgrounds jot demolished. I just asked others why should that matter and the answer I got most commonly is this shows lack of judgement and an unwillingness to be objective.


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> I have my family tested on average once every other week. I am happy to have this option and believe in the science, however, it can get really expensive. The cheapest approved tests I can find in Canada is about $12 a test IF I buy a box of 25. For a business, they can buy in a larger bulk, but it's still expensive, I have been trying to find someone personally I can piggy back off of and add to their order.


Where can one buy tests to use at home? Even if $12 a test, I'm interested.

This would be helpful for me to check before I visit my parents or other seniors.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Where can one buy tests to use at home? Even if $12 a test, I'm interested.
> 
> This would be helpful for me to check before I visit my parents or other seniors.


Cant you just get a free Covid test from your local health unit, wait for results, then go visit?

or are these spur of the moment visits?


----------



## Spudd

Money172375 said:


> Cant you just get a free Covid test from your local health unit, wait for results, then go visit?
> 
> or are these spur of the moment visits?


I don't think local health units are doing free covid tests for asymptomatic people. At least, not in Ontario. I don't know what other provinces are doing.


----------



## Money172375

Spudd said:


> I don't think local health units are doing free covid tests for asymptomatic people. At least, not in Ontario. I don't know what other provinces are doing.


What if you had contact with a confirmed carrier? Or pre-op? Visiting long-term care home?


----------



## damian13ster

Money172375 said:


> What if you had contact with a confirmed carrier? Or pre-op? Visiting long-term care home?


It is hard to get tested in Alberta. And if you are vaccinated it is pretty much impossible. 
If you are buying in bulk I suggest looking to the US


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> my source was the Mayo Clinic. I don't believe it is a source of misinformation. John Hopkins studied the national data and said the ratio for vaccinated people who tested positive and hospitalization was 11.000 to 1 and the ratio was 112 for the unvaccinated.


You claim your source was the Mayo Clinic, but you refuse to provide the reference.
My point is that you're making unsubstantiated claims. 

By unsubstantiated claims, I mean you are making a claim, and REFUSING to show the supporting data.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Here's the article from The Atlantic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Vaccinated People Are Not ‘Just as Likely’ to Spread the Coronavirus as Unvaccinated People
> 
> 
> This has become a common refrain among the cautious—and it’s wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _About the author: Craig Spencer is an emergency-medicine physician and director of global health in emergency medicine at New York Presbyterian/Columbia University Medical Center._


It's an opinion piece that doesn't cite the relevant studies. Interesting that an "expert" can't find facts to support their position.

I think it's pretty well accepted that the vaccine reduces hospitalization and death.








Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)


CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




www.cdc.gov





I expect it will also likely help reduce spread, however there are 2 points.
1. Nobody seems to cite the studies that prove it.
2. There are a lot of holes in "reduce spread". Is this during the symptomatic or asymptomatic phase of the illness etc.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> Where can one buy tests to use at home? Even if $12 a test, I'm interested.
> 
> This would be helpful for me to check before I visit my parents or other seniors.


I looked on my Alberta.ca site for a list of approved vendors. 

https://debcosafety.ca She was really knowledgeable and the boxes come in 25, but they do have the individual blister packs to split up the tests. $275 plus tax, and shipping (but was willing to meet to cut shipping)

rescue7.net They are ON based, $250 a box, but charges HST plus shipping.

My last set of tests came from family in the UK. I am going to order my next box from the first link, because there is a local pick up for me. When I visit my mom in a care home, we do a test at least once a week, so then I know, so that saves me a little. I try to do a test at my mom's home, and then see my dad within the same weekend. 

I have only used the person test when it was season change, and we had symptoms that were really close to allergies. I swabbed everyone to be sure before we went out again.


----------



## Plugging Along

Money172375 said:


> Cant you just get a free Covid test from your local health unit, wait for results, then go visit?
> or are these spur of the moment visits?


In my province, the ones that our health unit does is the full test (I can't remember the name, but the one that it feels that your brain is being stabbed at). It takes at least a day to get the results, and is only for those that have symptoms, a positive rapid or a few other criteria. 

The rapid tests are supplied to certain business, our health unit for certain criteria. My work has it is, so if I have to go in, or am seeing people more vulnerable, I will go in a get one. These tests are are 15 minutes and the same ones I have at home. One cannot use one of these in lieu of the vaccine confirmation as there is not 'official' paper or results or for travel. 

There is one restaurant i know that is offering tests to come in, instead of $40 at shoppers drug or some pharmacies, it's $20 but only good at their restaurant (no print out. 



Money172375 said:


> What if you had contact with a confirmed carrier? Or pre-op? Visiting long-term care home?


My province stopped contact tracing until recently, but if some how their directed to then yes, that is one of the options. My mom's care home also has it. I think this is for every care home here, but I am not sure, hers always had a much higher standard of safety. 



damian13ster said:


> It is hard to get tested in Alberta. And if you are vaccinated it is pretty much impossible.
> If you are buying in bulk I suggest looking to the US


Not all the test are approved from the US in Canada, maybe it's just a political thing. If you are using it for yourself, then it's fine. The shipping was stupid though.

It isn't that hard to get tested even now. Sadly, I have tested enough that I can even say which nostril I prefer,


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> You claim your source was the Mayo Clinic, but you refuse to provide the reference.
> My point is that you're making unsubstantiated claims.
> 
> By unsubstantiated claims, I mean you are making a claim, and REFUSING to show the supporting data.


no I am not .I just don't have the computer knowledge to know how to provide the link. Anyways a more comprehensive link was provided by James Beach. The information from John Hopkins should open eyes and your mind to the risks of the unvaccinated. A good search on the subject would provide a ton of data on this subject.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> It's an opinion piece that doesn't cite the relevant studies. Interesting that an "expert" can't find facts to support their position.
> 
> I think it's pretty well accepted that the vaccine reduces hospitalization and death.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
> 
> 
> CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I expect it will also likely help reduce spread, however there are 2 points.
> 1. Nobody seems to cite the studies that prove it.
> 2. There are a lot of holes in "reduce spread". Is this during the symptomatic or asymptomatic phase of the illness etc.


HE specifically refers to a John Hopkins study. Yes I guess a top medical person from Columbia U is a weak source. He makes this subject as simple as he can and you still argue with it. Let say it very simply 75% of the Alberta population is vaccinated and 92% of the ICUs are unvaccinated. I don't need a major study to confirm the obvious .


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> HE specifically refers to a John Hopkins study.


He doesn't provide any reference to know what study he's talking about.



> Yes I guess a top medical person from Columbia U is a weak source.


I didn't say that he was a weak source. I simply pointed out that he didn't cite any studies.
If you make a claim, without data, it's unsubstantiated.



> He makes this subject as simple as he can and you still argue with it. Let say it very simply 75% of the Alberta population is vaccinated and 92% of the ICUs are unvaccinated. I don't need a major study to confirm the obvious .


Uh yeah, that vaccination seems to reduce hospitalization. I didn't think that was a point of contention. 
There are studies showing this as well.

It's the OTHER claims that are questionable. Since neither you, nor your "experts" can cite studies and there is no obvious data supporting those claims, they remain unsubstantiated. Which is my point.


----------



## sags

There have been many studies that show vaccinated people are less likely to spread the virus than the un-vaxxed.









Vaccinated people are less likely to spread Covid, new research finds


British scientists examined how the Pfizer-BioNTech and the AstraZeneca vaccines affected the spread of the virus if a person had a breakthrough infection.




www.nbcnews.com


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> There have been many studies that show vaccinated people are less likely to spread the virus than the un-vaxxed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccinated people are less likely to spread Covid, new research finds
> 
> 
> British scientists examined how the Pfizer-BioNTech and the AstraZeneca vaccines affected the spread of the virus if a person had a breakthrough infection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com


Okay so there is some reduction. Not exactly sure, since it's short on details and doesn't link to the actual study.
But at least the article is easy to read.

I'd like to point out it gives "data" on how vaccination impacts Delta, but not other variants.
It's also a new article.
I'd like to see the actual study.

IMO it shows that there is still substantial risk from positive carriers, even if they're double vaccinated, which is the point. Vaccinated carriers are still a risk, maybe only half the risk of unvaccinated carriers, but we're clearly not free and clear.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> He doesn't provide any reference to know what study he's talking about.
> 
> 
> I didn't say that he was a weak source. I simply pointed out that he didn't cite any studies.
> If you make a claim, without data, it's unsubstantiated.
> 
> 
> Uh yeah, that vaccination seems to reduce hospitalization. I didn't think that was a point of contention.
> There are studies showing this as well.
> 
> It's the OTHER claims that are questionable. Since neither you, nor your "experts" can cite studies and there is no obvious data supporting those claims, they remain unsubstantiated. Which is my point.


well i will go with these folks before I accept your claims. CNBC had a good piece covering many aspects of this debate. it was entitled Mayo Clinic covid breaththrough May be be much Lower with Moderna. They reference CDC data showing hospitalizations 11 times higher for the unvaccinated and 25 times higher for ICUs. It was August 12. Once I find the Mayo Clinic article I will reference.. I am not sure what you have to siupport your claims. I will take the CDC over your positions any day of the week. When you are in a hole and you want out quit digging might be the best advice. Just may-be the vaccinated don't spread or transmitted the virus at a rate close to the unvaccinated. No study is required hospitalization and ICU s support that claim. A person with grade 6 math should understand that.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Cant you just get a free Covid test from your local health unit, wait for results, then go visit?
> 
> or are these spur of the moment visits?


I have never had a covid test (yet) so I have no idea how this works.

It seems like it would be nice to be able to self-test from home, instead of driving out to a test site clinic.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> well i will go with these folks before I accept your claims.


"These Folks", experts who don't cite research?
Yeah, because we should trust people like Dr Tam when she said we didn't need masks.
Sorry I trust them as much as they back up their claims with data and research.

What claim of mine do you find objectionable?
That vaccinated people still pose a risk of spreading COVID? Like the article from sags says?



> CNBC had a good piece covering many aspects of this debate. it was entitled Mayo Clinic covid breaththrough May be be much Lower with Moderna. They reference CDC data showing hospitalizations 11 times higher for the unvaccinated and 25 times higher for ICUs. It was August 12. Once I find the Mayo Clinic article I will reference.. I am not sure what you have to siupport your claims. I will take the CDC over your positions any day of the week. When you are in a hole and you want out quit digging might be the best advice


Again, I'm not arguing any of this, I accept the published data that shows vaccination helps protect the person who is vaccinated.



> Just may-be the vaccinated don't spread or transmitted the virus at a rate close to the unvaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> That claim is not supported by the published research, as the article sags pointed out vaccinated people spread delta 35-65% as much as unvaccinated people.
> 
> To me that suggests the important criteria is if they have COVID, or a mask, not if they're vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> No study is required hospitalization and ICU s support that claim. A person with grade 6 math should understand that.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually that's the point, it isn't a math problem.
> The vaccination status of the person in the ICU is irrelevant.
> The question is who gave them COVID19, was that person vaccinated or not vaccinated. Right now, we don't know who gave that person COVID, but based on the vaccinated spreading at 35-65% of unvaccinated, they were likley infected by a VACCINATED PERSON. Though to be fair this is more high school level math.
> 
> So yes, I do think this needs to be studied, as it is people are making a (logical) assumption, that unvaccinated people are spreading COVID, but the data so far doesn't support that conclusion, in fact it looks like vaccinated people are sigificant spreaders.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## sags

james4beach said:


> I have never had a covid test (yet) so I have no idea how this works.
> 
> It seems like it would be nice to be able to self-test from home, instead of driving out to a test site clinic.


One problem is that rapid tests are only about 80% accurate, and another is that test results depend on if the infection was recently contracted and may not show up yet.


----------



## damian13ster

So they have better accuracy than vaccine has efficacy. They protect from spread better than vaccinations


----------



## sags

Your arguments are becoming weaker and more bizarre. Canadians consider the debate over and have grown weary of the anti-vaxxer lament.

Mandates are the order of the day, so life can return to semi-normal. The un-vaxxed can get vaccinated or suffer the consequences.


----------



## damian13ster

I am not antivaxxer. I am pro-testing.
Testing is simply superior in stopping the spread. Science confirms that.
You have absolutely zero factual arguments against this fact.

If you want life to return to normal - you should be pro-testing as well.

But you don't want life to return to normal. You love the fake moral superiority you are feeling, and feed off of hate towards others. Sadly majority of Canadians do. And that's the reason we are still in the pandemic. Because hate and division is winning with science. We aren't introducing scientific solutions so people like you can feed off hate and further divide the country


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> I am not antivaxxer. I am pro-testing.
> Testing is simply superior in stopping the spread. Science confirms that.
> You have absolutely zero factual arguments against this fact.
> 
> If you want life to return to normal - you should be pro-testing as well.
> 
> But you don't want life to return to normal. You love the fake moral superiority you are feeling, and feed off of hate towards others. Sadly majority of Canadians do. And that's the reason we are still in the pandemic. Because hate and division is winning with science. We aren't introducing scientific solutions so people like you can feed off hate and further divide the country


And who will pay for a zillion continuous tests? and who will monitor al that? .. Pure nonsense. I don't want a world dominated by tests . I agree with Sags society has made its choice and you and a couple others are just a rattling wagon making a lot of noise but having zero impact.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> "These Folks", experts who don't cite research?
> Yeah, because we should trust people like Dr Tam when she said we didn't need masks.
> Sorry I trust them as much as they back up their claims with data and research.
> 
> What claim of mine do you find objectionable?
> That vaccinated people still pose a risk of spreading COVID? Like the article from sags says?
> 
> 
> Again, I'm not arguing any of this, I accept the published data that shows vaccination helps protect the person who is vaccinated.


Dr Tams is along ways away from John Hopkins, Columbia U or the Mayo Clinic.Her track record on covid from January 2020 has be full of bad and wrong advice. I give her no credibility at all. You seem to be suggesting that vaccinated people spread covid at the same rate as the unvaccinated ad that unvaccinated people are no greater risk than vaccinated people. The policy basis for mandates is to protect the public from the big spreaders the unvaccinated. Anyways society and the law has moved on and your position has been left behind.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Dr Tams is along ways away from John Hopkins, Columbia U or the Mayo Clinic.Her track record on covid from January 2020 has be full of bad and wrong advice. I give her no credibility at all.


I agree, however she's Canadas leading heath expert in charge of this.
If you're going to play the credential game, she's up there, and she's an excellent example of why I expect experts to show the data.

She has had a career in infectious disease and was one of the key people involved in the SARS response. Experience with SARS is exactly the type of experience needed to handle COVID19. Based on qualifications she is absolutely one of the top people for dealing with something like COVID19.

She just happens to be wrong/politically corrupted. Which is why I demand data from ALL experts. If our leading health expert can be wrong/lies, so can anyone else.



> You seem to be suggesting that vaccinated people spread covid at the same rate as the unvaccinated ad that unvaccinated people are no greater risk than vaccinated people.


I didn't claim this.
I did claim
1. That the data showing a significant difference didn't exist, or isn't being cited.
2. I have noted that vaccinated people still spread COVID19. There is data supporting this.
3. I have said that it appears that vaccination alone won't be enough to stop COVID19.
4. Only people with COVID19 provide a risk of getting COVID19.
Those all seem supported by the data.

I have now (yesterday) seen an article suggesting approximately that fully vaccination only reduces their spread by 50% (see above article linked by sags).
On basic math that would suggest that people with COVID still prevent a risk, irrespective of their vaccination status.



> The policy basis for mandates is to protect the public from the big spreaders the unvaccinated.


Which is broken logic.
If vaccination keeps you safe, then you're not at risk, so I'm not being protected.
The current available data shows that vaccinated people still spread COVID19.



> Anyways society and the law has moved on and your position has been left behind.


I understand this, they're just wrong.
Just like when everyone charged into Iraq to get Saddams weapons of mass destruction that weren't there.
Or when the Canadian Government, and generations of Canadians, thought it was a good idea to seize native kids and torture and kill them "for their own good" in residential schools.

My point has been and remains very simple.
1. Everyone should get vaccinated. I called out for the government being overly cautious in banning the use of the AZ vaccine.
2. You have a human right to refuse unwanted medical procedures.
3. There is (as of today, Mid October 2021) no data showing vaccination stops the spread of COVID19.
4.If vaccination keeps the recipient safe from COVID (which data suggests it does), we don't face much risk from COVID19 exposure going forward.

So given that the vaccinated public is no longer at risk from COVID19, there is no public benefit to forced vaccinations.
It's simply an abuse of power to try and get people do to something they don't want to, regardless of their reasons.

Again, I'll circle back, do you think someone who has been hospitalized due to dose 1 of the COVID19 vaccine should be granted a medical exemption.
I think that's an obvious and clear case were we could agree that an exemption is warranted. I've asked before, but nobody seems to want to answer.

Is the goal a discussion and maybe some agreement, or simply saying "you're wrong, I'm right because people agree with me".
There are countless examples of people, and even entire societies being wrong en masse.
I'm simply suggesting that human rights should be respected.


----------



## MrMatt

Why are they holding back the vaccine?

Where is the vaccine for kids?
Lets get this done!

Where are the boosters, it looks like there is declining effectiveness, why is the government blocking ordinary citizens from getting their 6 month booster?


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> And who will pay for a zillion continuous tests? and who will monitor al that? .. Pure nonsense. I don't want a world dominated by tests . I agree with Sags society has made its choice and you and a couple others are just a rattling wagon making a lot of noise but having zero impact.


Either a company, government, or an individual.
Doesn't matter. Disincentivizing tests is nuts and anti-science.

The morons we have in charge spent over 500bln on the pandemic. That means one could get every single Canadian tested daily for 4 years and it would still come out cheaper and much more effective.

But even if you disagree that the morons in charge should be paying for it, then individuals and companies should still have a choice to pay and make their employees safer. They should be incentivized to do so. In the meantime they are discouraged. It makes absolutely no sense


----------



## Plugging Along

damian13ster said:


> Either a company, government, or an individual.
> Doesn't matter. Disincentivizing tests is nuts and anti-science.
> 
> The morons we have in charge spent over 500bln on the pandemic. That means one could get every single Canadian tested daily for 4 years and it would still come out cheaper and much more effective.
> 
> But even if you disagree that the morons in charge should be paying for it, then individuals and companies should still have a choice to pay and make their employees safer. They should be incentivized to do so. In the meantime they are discouraged. It makes absolutely no sense


To be clear, I am pro test (WITH vaccinationation) However, I think it should be up to the individual to chooses not to vaccinate, should have to be pay for the test 2-3 times a week. I don't think the government funded by taxpayers should have to pay when 90% of taxpayers are vaccinated, they should not have to be pay for those. The company should not have to an unvaccinated choice either. Many companies have chosen to make their work place safer, by mandating vaccines. Mine actually has vaccines mandate AND we still test (my company believes in science). If an individual chooses to not vaccinate then they must take responsibility for their action This could mean frequent testing they pay for themselves, higher insurance premiums, unpaid leave if they do get sick etc. I personally believe that these anti vaxxers want freedom without responsibility.

If those that are anti vax on this board would agree to: pay for their own testing at least 2 times a week at $12 a swab (that's how much my tests are), never go out with symptoms; stay at home without pay if recovering, pay the incremental cost of their health insurance OR pay for part of the healthcare if hospitalized with COVID, and essentially be responsible for their actions. I would FULLY support their choice. 

*How many of the anti-vaxxers here agree? *


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> Why are they holding back the vaccine?
> 
> Where is the vaccine for kids?
> Lets get this done!
> 
> Where are the boosters, it looks like there is declining effectiveness, why is the government blocking ordinary citizens from getting their 6 month booster?


My mom is high risk and by my estimation qualifies for the 3rd shot in Ontario. ive been able to find the guidelines and clinic locations offering the 3rd shot in Ontario. However, her oncologist and family doctor both say they have no info. They seem to waiting for some mystery form they need to fill out. The form seems to exist in some local health units, but not in my mom‘s region. I told my mom to request a letter from either and then we’ll go to the clinic.


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> Why are they holding back the vaccine?
> 
> Where is the vaccine for kids?
> Lets get this done!
> 
> Where are the boosters, it looks like there is declining effectiveness, why is the government blocking ordinary citizens from getting their 6 month booster?


Pfizer just formally asked Canada to approve the kids vaccine earlier this week. Last I heard, they said it should be out for delivery around Christmas.


----------



## damian13ster

Plugging Along said:


> To be clear, I am pro test (WITH vaccinationation) However, I think it should be up to the individual to chooses not to vaccinate, should have to be pay for the test 2-3 times a week. I don't think the government funded by taxpayers should have to pay when 90% of taxpayers are vaccinated, they should not have to be pay for those. The company should not have to an unvaccinated choice either. Many companies have chosen to make their work place safer, by mandating vaccines. Mine actually has vaccines mandate AND we still test (my company believes in science). If an individual chooses to not vaccinate then they must take responsibility for their action This could mean frequent testing they pay for themselves, higher insurance premiums, unpaid leave if they do get sick etc. I personally believe that these anti vaxxers want freedom without responsibility.
> 
> If those that are anti vax on this board would agree to: pay for their own testing at least 2 times a week at $12 a swab (that's how much my tests are), never go out with symptoms; stay at home without pay if recovering, pay the incremental cost of their health insurance OR pay for part of the healthcare if hospitalized with COVID, and essentially be responsible for their actions. I would FULLY support their choice.
> 
> *How many of the anti-vaxxers here agree? *


When you look at actual risk to your surroundings, it looks like this:
1. Vaccinated and tested (about 90-97% protection from spread depending on test)
2. Unvaccinated and tested (about 80-93% protection from spread depending on test)
...
...
...
3. Vaccinated and untested (about 45% protection from spread)
...
...
...
4. Unvaccinated and untested (no protection from spread)

There is no logic behind giving 3) - people who are higher risk to their surroundings more freedom than 2) - people who are lower risk to their surroundings. Again, who pays for this is secondary, but from scientific point of view current restrictions are detrimental to public health and not driven by science.
I personally believe the solution is to move all Canadians into groups 1 and 2 as from stopping the spread perspective they are far superior compared to groups 3 and 4, but apparently majority of people don't want to test.
They are protected and they don't care about anyone else enough to go through regular testing. Empathy is dead in Canada

Now, a risk to individual is different between those 4 categories.
The gradation is based on risk to their surroundings, not to themselves


----------



## Spudd

Money172375 said:


> What if you had contact with a confirmed carrier? Or pre-op? Visiting long-term care home?


Of course, in those cases they are. Except for maybe long-term care, I think long-term care now have vaccine mandates rather than requiring testing anymore. I just checked and at my mom's long-term care home they're asking for rapid antigen tests rather than PCR for non-vaccinated visiting, so I suspect that the public health unit would tell you to go pay for one at the drug store.


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> To be clear, I am pro test (WITH vaccinationation) However, I think it should be up to the individual to chooses not to vaccinate, should have to be pay for the test 2-3 times a week. I don't think the government funded by taxpayers should have to pay when 90% of taxpayers are vaccinated, they should not have to be pay for those. The company should not have to an unvaccinated choice either. Many companies have chosen to make their work place safer, by mandating vaccines. Mine actually has vaccines mandate AND we still test (my company believes in science). If an individual chooses to not vaccinate then they must take responsibility for their action This could mean frequent testing they pay for themselves, higher insurance premiums, unpaid leave if they do get sick etc. I personally believe that these anti vaxxers want freedom without responsibility.
> 
> If those that are anti vax on this board would agree to: pay for their own testing at least 2 times a week at $12 a swab (that's how much my tests are), never go out with symptoms; stay at home without pay if recovering, pay the incremental cost of their health insurance OR pay for part of the healthcare if hospitalized with COVID, and essentially be responsible for their actions. I would FULLY support their choice.
> 
> *How many of the anti-vaxxers here agree? *


 ... you could be waiting forever on an answer to your question.

Everyone on this board claims they're NOT anti-vaxxers but agree with the anti-vaxxers' claim that they're being "discriminated" on the fundamental right to breathe air like the vaccinateds and not be injected with anything they don't believe in. [Of course, that excludes self-shooting up and using weeds too].

Plus/moreso being discriminated "severely" ('cause they pay taxes too) with your suggested list of stuffs above paragraphs. The coercion, the tyranny!


----------



## damian13ster

Yeah, you can make your own choices, have your own beliefs, and don't believe that you have the right to impose it on others. You can not be affected by bad policies, yet you can have empathy towards those that are. Crazy concept


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Yeah, you can make your own choices, have your own beliefs, and don't believe that you have the right to impose it on others. You can not be affected by bad policies, yet you can have empathy towards those that are. Crazy concept


 ... vaccine is still voluntary and the air belongs to everyone. Simple concept.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... vaccine is still voluntary and the air belongs to everyone. Simple concept.


The actual question is why does superior method of stopping the spread is discouraged?


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> The actual question is why does superior method of stopping the spread is discouraged?


 ... I have yet to hear from the "medical experts" on "a" "superior" method in stopping the spread.

The only one I have heard as being 1. superior, and 2. now a silver bullet in "stopping" the spread is from your touting of "testing".

My question to you (as a taxpayer, as an employer or even as an employee) is "are you willing to ditch out the costs for these testings"? I can bet my Ferrari the answer is "no" aka you want them free.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... I have yet to hear from the "medical experts" on "a" "superior" method in stopping the spread.
> 
> The only one I have heard as being 1. superior, and 2. now a silver bullet in "stopping" the spread is from your touting of "testing".
> 
> My question to you (as a taxpayer, as an employer or even as an employee) is "are you willing to ditch out the costs for these testings"? I can bet my Ferrari the answer is "no" aka you want them free.


Well, should i provide the address to which you have to ship your ferrari? Because the answer is 'yes'. I am willing to ditch out the costs for testing. Have been doing that when visiting relatives. have ditched out costs for vaccines, have ditched out costs for stupidity of the government, and have no problem ditching out for cost of effective measure of stopping the spread.

And there were multiple sources cited. 
Depending on type of test, the false negative rate is 7-20%. That means 80-93% of infections are caught
Pfizer efficacy after 6 months is 47%. That means 53% chance of still being infected. 

Are you smart enough to know that 80-93% is higher than 53%?
If so then you wouldn't ask stupid questions on why testing is superior compared to vaccine in stopping the spread, and why as a tested person you are safer to your environment than as a vaccinated person.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> I agree, however she's Canadas leading heath expert in charge of this.
> If you're going to play the credential game, she's up there, and she's an excellent example of why I expect experts to show the data.
> 
> She has had a career in infectious disease and was one of the key people involved in the SARS response. Experience with SARS is exactly the type of experience needed to handle COVID19. Based on qualifications she is absolutely one of the top people for dealing with something like COVID19.
> 
> She just happens to be wrong/politically corrupted. Which is why I demand data from ALL experts. If our leading health expert can be wrong/lies, so can anyone else.
> 
> 
> I didn't claim this.
> I did claim
> 1. That the data showing a significant difference didn't exist, or isn't being cited.
> 2. I have noted that vaccinated people still spread COVID19. There is data supporting this.
> 3. I have said that it appears that vaccination alone won't be enough to stop COVID19.
> 4. Only people with COVID19 provide a risk of getting COVID19.
> Those all seem supported by the data.
> 
> I have now (yesterday) seen an article suggesting approximately that fully vaccination only reduces their spread by 50% (see above article linked by sags).
> On basic math that would suggest that people with COVID still prevent a risk, irrespective of their vaccination status.
> 
> 
> Which is broken logic.
> If vaccination keeps you safe, then you're not at risk, so I'm not being protected.
> The current available data shows that vaccinated people still spread COVID19.
> 
> 
> I understand this, they're just wrong.
> Just like when everyone charged into Iraq to get Saddams weapons of mass destruction that weren't there.
> Or when the Canadian Government, and generations of Canadians, thought it was a good idea to seize native kids and torture and kill them "for their own good" in residential schools.
> 
> My point has been and remains very simple.
> 1. Everyone should get vaccinated. I called out for the government being overly cautious in banning the use of the AZ vaccine.
> 2. You have a human right to refuse unwanted medical procedures.
> 3. There is (as of today, Mid October 2021) no data showing vaccination stops the spread of COVID19.
> 4.If vaccination keeps the recipient safe from COVID (which data suggests it does), we don't face much risk from COVID19 exposure going forward.
> 
> So given that the vaccinated public is no longer at risk from COVID19, there is no public benefit to forced vaccinations.
> It's simply an abuse of power to try and get people do to something they don't want to, regardless of their reasons.
> 
> Again, I'll circle back, do you think someone who has been hospitalized due to dose 1 of the COVID19 vaccine should be granted a medical exemption.
> I think that's an obvious and clear case were we could agree that an exemption is warranted. I've asked before, but nobody seems to want to answer.
> 
> Is the goal a discussion and maybe some agreement, or simply saying "you're wrong, I'm right because people agree with me".
> There are countless examples of people, and even entire societies being wrong en masse.
> I'm simply suggesting that human rights should be respected.


For your information the British just released a study by the U of Oxford that shows a much lower risk of transmission from vaccinated people. I found it under NBC News dated October1 and is entitled " Vaccinated people are less likely to spread covid new research finds" The author of the article is Akshay Syal MD. It looks like a pretty solid study which has been approved by researchers in other jurisdictions. My final comment on mandates is no one is forcing anyone from taking a vaccine. If you chose not to get vaccinated your job may be at stake and your access to certain things will be denied or restricted. Nothing new on that. certain occupations for decades require vaccinations as a condition of employment. I have some human rights as well and one of those is to protected from the" pandemic of the unvaccinated" . From my health point of view I don't want to be around these people and I am glad the government is respecting my human rights by imposing mandates. If nothing else the clogging of the healthcare system by the unvaccinated is reason enough to impose such mandates. If anyone is denied essential medical services because of anti-vaxxers clogging the health care system is justification for mandates . This will be my last comment on this topic as it has been beaten into the ground.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> For your information the British just released a study by the U of Oxford that shows a much lower risk of transmission from vaccinated people. I found it under NBC News dated October1 and is entitled " Vaccinated people are less likely to spread covid new research finds" The author of the article is Akshay Syal MD. It looks like a pretty solid study which has been approved by researchers in other jurisdictions. My final comment on mandates is no one is forcing anyone from taking a vaccine. If you chose not to get vaccinated your job may be at stake and your access to certain things will be denied or restricted. Nothing new on that. certain occupations require vaccinations as a condition of employment. I have some human rights as well and one of those is to protected from the" pandemic of the unvaccinated" . From my health point of view I don't want to be around these people and I am glad the government is respecting my human rights by imposing mandates.


Yes, vaccinated untested people are less likely to spread than unvaccinated and untested people. All my posts reflect that.
Vaccinated untested people are more likely to spread than unvaccinated and tested people. The study doesn't dispute that at all.

You are completely missing the point. You are safer around unvaccinated tested people than around vaccinated untested people. Government is precisely discouraging action (testing) that makes others safer to be around.
They are sacrificing public safety. They are sacrificing your safety. They are protecting your human rights by making it more likely you will get infected? - give me a break
Science clearly shows that. That's what is mind-blowing about it. You keep ignoring the science. You are safer around tested people than around unvaccinated people. Not a single research disputes that.


----------



## zinfit

Plugging Along said:


> To be clear, I am pro test (WITH vaccinationation) However, I think it should be up to the individual to chooses not to vaccinate, should have to be pay for the test 2-3 times a week. I don't think the government funded by taxpayers should have to pay when 90% of taxpayers are vaccinated, they should not have to be pay for those. The company should not have to an unvaccinated choice either. Many companies have chosen to make their work place safer, by mandating vaccines. Mine actually has vaccines mandate AND we still test (my company believes in science). If an individual chooses to not vaccinate then they must take responsibility for their action This could mean frequent testing they pay for themselves, higher insurance premiums, unpaid leave if they do get sick etc. I personally believe that these anti vaxxers want freedom without responsibility.
> 
> If those that are anti vax on this board would agree to: pay for their own testing at least 2 times a week at $12 a swab (that's how much my tests are), never go out with symptoms; stay at home without pay if recovering, pay the incremental cost of their health insurance OR pay for part of the healthcare if hospitalized with COVID, and essentially be responsible for their actions. I would FULLY support their choice.
> 
> *How many of the anti-vaxxers here agree? *


I would be in favour of an mandate exemption for anti-vaxxers if they subjected themselves to regular and consistent testing [ a least 2 a week] with at least 1 PCR test per month all at their own cost. Even if such an approach was adopted the anti-vaxxers wouldn't comply. The one's I have talked don't believe in the tests just like they don't believe in vaccines or masks.


----------



## damian13ster

You assume they wouldn't comply. Your assumption doesn't matter though. They should be given the opportunity to do that because IT INCREASES PUBLIC SAFETY. Instead they are discouraged from doing so. It makes zero sense. 
There is zero societal cost in allowing people to get tested. Testing should be encouraged. I wouldn't limit the testing just to unvaccinated though because it decreases chance of spread significantly more than vaccines, but at least it would be first step.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Well, should i provide the address to which you have to ship your ferrari? Because the answer is 'yes'. I am willing to ditch out the costs for testing. Have been doing that when visiting relatives. have ditched out costs for vaccines, have ditched out costs for stupidity of the government, and have no problem ditching out for cost of effective measure of stopping the spread.


 ... same modus operandus with the twistings. First, we were talking about "testings" to so as to accommodate the "rights-of-the-unvaccinateds", no? Then you come up with the narrative that the "untested" vaccinateds spread more than the 'tested-unvaccinateds" and so "testing" is superior in stopping the infection spread. 

If I recall correctly, you claimed you were vaccinated so why do you have to "test" just to visit relatives? Do you have symptoms? Or are you aware you were exposed to Covid? Or you're just scared that you're vaccinated and now a spreader (your expertise)? Or are you 'fessing up (aka being honest now) as "unvaccinated"? The more narratives you come up with, the less sense you make. I'll send you my beat up Hot-Wheel Ferrari if you want.



> And there were multiple sources cited.
> Depending on type of test, the false negative rate is 7-20%. That means 80-93% of infections are caught
> Pfizer efficacy after 6 months is 47%. That means 53% chance of still being infected.
> 
> Are you smart enough to know that 80-93% is higher than 53%?
> If so then you wouldn't ask stupid questions on why testing is superior compared to vaccine in stopping the spread, and why as a tested person you are safer to your environment than as a vaccinated person.


... blah blah blah with the stats. And doh with your common sense.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... same modus operandus with the twistings. First, we were talking about "testings" to so as to accommodate the "rights-of-the-unvaccinateds", no? Then you come up with the narrative that the "untested" vaccinateds spread more than the 'tested-unvaccinateds" and so "testing" is superior in stopping the infection spread.
> 
> If I recall correctly, you claimed you were vaccinated so why do you have to "test" just to visit relatives? Do you have symptoms? Or are you aware you were exposed to Covid? Or you're just scared that you're vaccinated and now a spreader (your expertise)? Or are you 'fessing up (aka being honest now) as "unvaccinated"? The more narratives you come up with, the less sense you make. I'll send you my beat up Hot-Wheel Ferrari if you want.
> 
> ... blah blah blah with the stats. And doh with your common sense.


You can only guess the motives, speculate. 
Let's focus on facts. And you can't dispute any that I have provided. You can't dispute that testing is better at stopping the spread than vaccination.

And that also answers your question. I am vaccinated, but vaccinations are much less effective than testing when it comes to stopping the spread. That's why I get tested. To decrease chance I spread when going into high crowds or vulnerable population. Because I care about people and have enough empathy to spend a bit of extra money and significantly decrease chances I will spread the virus to them.

The message is extremely coherent.
Vaccinations are very effective when protecting an individual.
They have small effect on preventing the spread.
Testing has small effect when protecting the individual.
It has huge effect on preventing the spread.

When you look at actual risk to your surroundings, it looks like this:
1. Vaccinated and tested (about 90-97% protection from spread depending on test)
2. Unvaccinated and tested (about 80-93% protection from spread depending on test)
...
...
...
3. Vaccinated and untested (about 45-50% protection from spread)
...
...
...
4. Unvaccinated and untested (no protection from spread)


----------



## Plugging Along

damian13ster said:


> When you look at actual risk to your surroundings, it looks like this:
> 1. Vaccinated and tested (about 90-97% protection from spread depending on test)
> 2. Unvaccinated and tested (about 80-93% protection from spread depending on test)
> 
> 3. Vaccinated and untested (about 45% protection from spread)
> 
> 4. Unvaccinated and untested (no protection from spread)
> 
> *There is no logic behind giving 3) - people who are higher risk to their surroundings more freedom than 2) - people who are lower risk to their surroundings*. Again, who pays for this is secondary, but from scientific point of view current restrictions are detrimental to public health and not driven by science.
> 
> Now, a risk to individual is different between those 4 categories.
> The gradation is based on risk to their surroundings, not to themselves


I agree with much of your post, generally logically and factually sound. 
There areas that I differ in my thought process is the percentages. I find there are so many nuances to statistics and percentages, I don't consider them absolute. I tend to look for outcome in trends. I also do not believe in absolutes. (I am provide my line of reasoning for context). 
In terms of reducing spread. 
1. Vaccinated & tested > 2. Unvaccinated & tested OR 3. Vaccinated & Untested > 4. Unvaccinated & untested

Where I differ is, I am not sure I agree that your 2 is actually better than 3. First because I am not confident with the % because they do vary so much and there a many social-psychological factors that impact the profile a vaccinated person vs. non vaccinated risk profile for spreading. Also vaccinated does shed the virus less, so there is a reduction in spread. That's another post (maybe). Otherwise, we generally agree regarding spreading order.

The next area I look at is in terms of impact and risks. There is higher risk to those unvaccinated. That's a fact. Personally, if they got ill in their own little bubble and had no impact to others, I would let live with their choice and follow Darwisim consequences. Your post talks about spread, which is ONLY ONE OF the impacts. If spread was the only impact, then fine. However, the impact of an unvaccinated, is not only about spreading (which there is debate), it is also the indirect of their hospitalization. I know several people that have had their surgeries cancelled because of unvaccinated ICU patients. Sadly, an acquaintance after having their surgery cancelled for the second time due to ICU overcrowding died Thanksgiving weekend. He was 42. 

So there is a secondary impact of over crowding our hospital system. We had locked downs before vaccines in order to not overwhelm the health care system. Now that 84-90+% (depending on the province and the stat) of people in ICU are there because they are unvaccinated, they are the ones impacting others. It no longer matters that they may or may not have spread the virus (which is your first argument). 

The question is how to stop the overwhelming of the system? Some options are:
1. Unvaccinated - take a lower priority. Since they made a choice to go into ICU by not vaccinated, they can accept the consequence waiting until the other surgeries that were ahead of them are performed. The challenge is health care is supposed to help no matter what, despite their own stupid ness. I am for a you make a decision you live (or die) with the consequences in this case. The answer is because we live in a society where we are supposed to protect each other, even the stupid. 
2. If 1 is too harsh, then make them pay for their ICU costs. It doesn't solve that they bumped the line, but perhaps paying for the their cost, the revenues could be used to hire more people. Why should I as the tax payer have to pay for the stupid when they were a much better option. The answer is because we live in a society where we are supposed to protect each other. 
3. Have people get vaccinated. The anti vax don't think they are the problem, until its too late and they are the problem. If they don't want to get vaccinated, then should not be able to participate in society outside of the essentials. Anti vaxxers claim this is unfair, why should they be forced to do something with their body. The answer is because we live in a society where we are supposed to protect each other.



> I personally believe the solution is to move all Canadians into groups 1 and 2 as from stopping the spread perspective they are far superior compared to groups 3 and 4, but apparently majority of people don't want to test.
> They are protected and they don't care about anyone else enough to go through regular testing. Empathy is dead in Canada


This is where I again differ in opinion. 
I do believe 1 is superior because it reduces spread AND reduces the likelihood of being in the hospital. I don't know if 2 is superior because testing will not stop an Anti-vaxxer from taking someone else's in the hospital. For this reason, I think #3 is superior to 2 because even if they are still spreading it, if the severe outcomes are lower. I believe if the outcomes were less severe, its okay to have more spread (though we don't want that). 4 is the worst because it does nothing for spread or outcome. 

My order is:
Reducing severe outcome & spread> Reducing severe outcomes > Reducing spread > doing nothing


----------



## Plugging Along

zinfit said:


> I would be in favour of an mandate exemption for anti-vaxxers if they subjected themselves to regular and consistent testing [ a least 2 a week] with at least 1 PCR test per month all at their own cost. Even if such an approach was adopted the anti-vaxxers wouldn't comply. The one's I have talked don't believe in the tests just like they don't believe in vaccines or masks.


This is where we (including the government) need separate a logical recommendation/solution vs implementation and enforcement. I think the choice should be there as a reasonable solution that addresses concerns (their body, their choice, blah blah blah). Whether one again with masks, vaccinations, or tests is irrelevant. If that is the law then that is the law. I struggle with mandatory vaccinations with work or anything essential though I am fine with anything non essential. My friend who works in healthcare has to confirm appointments with the vulnerable and tell them the expectations (masks primarily). She had one particular angry patient tell her he doesn't believe in mask. Without missing a beat, she told him 'Masks aren't unicorns or Santa as something to believe in, they are the law. Either he could choose to comply with the law or have the appointment scheduled at another time'. Simple enforcement without beliefs. I do agree with you that many of the anti-vax crowd will argue their beliefs, but if you take the beliefs out of it, and enforce the rule of test then they can choose if they will comply with the law or leave. 

Most groups just don't know how to enforce. I personally think if Apple was in charge, COVID would be gone. I went the Apple store when the lock downs first happened. You had a make an appointment, line up in an appointment line, they screened you asking the questions, took your temperature, and made sure you had a compliant mask (no vents), they had Apple security making sure you stayed on your 6 ft dot. I watch as some complained, and didn't believe in it, and the Apple employees just said, you can choose to shop on line or use our on line genius bar, but to come into the store, these are rules you have to follow. They hired their own security who stood their to confirm.


----------



## damian13ster

Plugging Along said:


> I agree with much of your post, generally logically and factually sound.
> There areas that I differ in my thought process is the percentages. I find there are so many nuances to statistics and percentages, I don't consider them absolute. I tend to look for outcome in trends. I also do not believe in absolutes. (I am provide my line of reasoning for context).
> In terms of reducing spread.
> 1. Vaccinated & tested > 2. Unvaccinated & tested OR 3. Vaccinated & Untested > 4. Unvaccinated & untested
> 
> Where I differ is, I am not sure I agree that your 2 is actually better than 3. First because I am not confident with the % because they do vary so much and there a many social-psychological factors that impact the profile a vaccinated person vs. non vaccinated risk profile for spreading. Also vaccinated does shed the virus less, so there is a reduction in spread. That's another post (maybe). Otherwise, we generally agree regarding spreading order.
> 
> The next area I look at is in terms of impact and risks. There is higher risk to those unvaccinated. That's a fact. Personally, if they got ill in their own little bubble and had no impact to others, I would let live with their choice and follow Darwisim consequences. Your post talks about spread, which is ONLY ONE OF the impacts. If spread was the only impact, then fine. However, the impact of an unvaccinated, is not only about spreading (which there is debate), it is also the indirect of their hospitalization. I know several people that have had their surgeries cancelled because of unvaccinated ICU patients. Sadly, an acquaintance after having their surgery cancelled for the second time due to ICU overcrowding died Thanksgiving weekend. He was 42.
> 
> So there is a secondary impact of over crowding our hospital system. We had locked downs before vaccines in order to not overwhelm the health care system. Now that 84-90+% (depending on the province and the stat) of people in ICU are there because they are unvaccinated, they are the ones impacting others. It no longer matters that they may or may not have spread the virus (which is your first argument).
> 
> The question is how to stop the overwhelming of the system? Some options are:
> 1. Unvaccinated - take a lower priority. Since they made a choice to go into ICU by not vaccinated, they can accept the consequence waiting until the other surgeries that were ahead of them are performed. The challenge is health care is supposed to help no matter what, despite their own stupid ness. I am for a you make a decision you live (or die) with the consequences in this case. The answer is because we live in a society where we are supposed to protect each other, even the stupid.
> 2. If 1 is too harsh, then make them pay for their ICU costs. It doesn't solve that they bumped the line, but perhaps paying for the their cost, the revenues could be used to hire more people. Why should I as the tax payer have to pay for the stupid when they were a much better option. The answer is because we live in a society where we are supposed to protect each other.
> 3. Have people get vaccinated. The anti vax don't think they are the problem, until its too late and they are the problem. If they don't want to get vaccinated, then should not be able to participate in society outside of the essentials. Anti vaxxers claim this is unfair, why should they be forced to do something with their body. The answer is because we live in a society where we are supposed to protect each other.
> 
> 
> This is where I again differ in opinion.
> I do believe 1 is superior because it reduces spread AND reduces the likelihood of being in the hospital. I don't know if 2 is superior because testing will not stop an Anti-vaxxer from taking someone else's in the hospital. For this reason, I think #3 is superior to 2 because even if they are still spreading it, if the severe outcomes are lower. I believe if the outcomes were less severe, its okay to have more spread (though we don't want that). 4 is the worst because it does nothing for spread or outcome.
> 
> My order is:
> Reducing severe outcome & spread> Reducing severe outcomes > Reducing spread > doing nothing


You are putting unvaccinated and tested on same level as vaccinated and untested. There is no basis for that. Efficacy of the vaccine is relatively well known, unless you believe Pfizer states their vaccine is less effective than it actually is. False negative rate of the tests is relatively well known too. 
Those numbers are not a mystery and they clearly indicate the two are not equal.
Unvaccinated and tested are safer to be around than vaccinated and untested.

We live in socialized health care. You pay for stupidity of others, and others pay for your stupidity. That is simply how it works. And COVID isn't single biggest predictor of hospitalization. There are other lifestyle/choice factors that are more likely to end you up in hospital. Yet you aren't talking about penalizing people for making those choices. What gives?

The counter-argument was always that obesity, smoking, stupidity isn't contagious. But we know that being unvaccinated and tested lowers the spread better than being vaccinated and untested so that argument makes no sense.

What government right now is doing is not protecting each other. They are actively working to increase the spread by discouraging testing. If we are to care for each other - we need to encourage to test as much as possible. 
Current action puts rest of the society at greater risk. This is not 'caring for each other'. This is literally 'care for yourself and screw everyone else'


----------



## sags

My wife's employer let un-vaccinated employees continue to work, but had to arrive 30 minutes early for each shift to take a test and then wait in the parking lot until the results came. 

If the test was negative.......they were allowed entry.

The company had to hire people to stand at the door at the start of all shifts to do the testing.

They did that for awhile and decided enough of that. They mandated vaccines for all employees. 

One employee refused and was terminated. Her job was posted the next day. She got no sympathy from her fellow workers.

You pays your money and takes your chances.


----------



## sags

Testing people on a grand scale is highly impractical, expensive and people wouldn't do it.

From what I have read, a rapid self test doesn't provide any documentation to prove negativity to the virus.

So people would have to be hired to administer such tests and verify the results.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Testing people on a grand scale is highly impractical, expensive and people wouldn't do it.
> 
> From what I have read, a rapid self test doesn't provide any documentation to prove negativity to the virus.
> 
> So people would have to be hired to administer such tests and verify the results.


I did. As a solidarity for people who made different choices than me for various reasons, I have refused to provide my vaccination status to employer. Luckily significant portion of vaccinated employees did the same. Suddenly a plan to fire people who don't was scrapped because they would have to fire 25-30% of staff. Instead they provide daily testing. There was already a nurse on site so no additional hires needed for that. Solidarity among people works out like a charm. We are all safer for it because significant portion of us gets tested. So all employees now, vaccinated or not, can go back to their homes, wifes, kids, parents, and know they won't spread the virus. Vaccinated people who don't get to test are only ~45% sure they won't infect their close ones.
But that's what being selfish and hateful gets you


----------



## sags

I have no idea what study you continually refer to that claims un-vaccinated who are tested are less risk than vaccinated people.

But early in the pandemic there was a study that linked smoking and obesity with less severe symptoms from Covid, due to a heightened immune system.

Some theorized the Delta variant mutated as a response to this heightened immunity.

So, I suppose back then you would have recommended smoking and eating more cheeseburgers, because of sketchy findings from a study.


----------



## sags

Tests are only valid until you meet the next person who may have the virus. That is a point you seem to miss.

Unless people are tested every time they are exposed to someone......they are unreliable.

Tests are nothing more than a snapshot from the past. You weren't infected the last time you had a test........is all they show.

In the time period since the last test......you could have been infected and it may not show up on a test for days.


----------



## Beaver101

Moved to COVID-19 thread.


----------



## sags

The virus has been beaten down pretty good in our area. People are getting vaccinated and proof is required.

Ford doesn't cater to the un-vaxxed, unlike the federal Conservatives and several Provincial Premiers.

Ford is more Liberal than Conservative, and that has helped him make better decisions.

_Use of enhanced proof of vaccination certificates in the province also takes effect on Friday. _


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> I have no idea what study you continually refer to that claims un-vaccinated who are tested are less risk than vaccinated people.
> 
> But early in the pandemic there was a study that linked smoking and obesity with less severe symptoms from Covid, due to a heightened immune system.
> 
> Some theorized the Delta variant mutated as a response to this heightened immunity.
> 
> So, I suppose back then you would have recommended smoking and eating more cheeseburgers, because of sketchy findings from a study.


Show me a study that shows obesity is good with COVID 
Smoking I heard of, because nicotine lowers inflammation and this is how your immune system destroys you.
And I read study on smoking. And the conclusion was that perhaps nicotine pills should be studied, not that smoking is good.

And no, I don't miss that point at all. I previously showed the probabilities. Probability to get sick within any 3 day period in Canada is around 0.0018%. Incubation period for delta is around 4 days. You start spreading 1-2 days before the symptoms. All of those information Ihave previously provided links for. 
That's why I believe testing every 3 days is sufficient, even if it increases probability of spread from 7-20% to 7.0018-20.0018%. For vaccinated people who got their vaccine 6 months ago it is 53%, 4 months ago 47%.









Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness drops 6 months after 2nd dose: study - National | Globalnews.ca


The data suggests that the drop is due to waning efficacy, rather than more contagious variants, researchers said.




globalnews.ca





Every single thing I said is backed by data.
Your drivel motivated by hate and fake moral superiority has no backing in science


----------



## Plugging Along

damian13ster said:


> You are putting unvaccinated and tested on same level as vaccinated and untested. There is no basis for that. Efficacy of the vaccine is relatively well known, unless you believe Pfizer states their vaccine is less effective than it actually is. False negative rate of the tests is relatively well known too.
> Those numbers are not a mystery and they clearly indicate the two are not equal.
> Unvaccinated and tested are safer to be around than vaccinated and untested.
> 
> We live in socialized health care. You pay for stupidity of others, and others pay for your stupidity. That is simply how it works. And COVID isn't single biggest predictor of hospitalization. There are other lifestyle/choice factors that are more likely to end you up in hospital. Yet you aren't talking about penalizing people for making those choices. What gives?
> 
> The counter-argument was always that obesity, smoking, stupidity isn't contagious. But we know that being unvaccinated and tested lowers the spread better than being vaccinated and untested so that argument makes no sense.
> 
> What government right now is doing is not protecting each other. They are actively working to increase the spread by discouraging testing. If we are to care for each other - we need to encourage to test as much as possible.
> Current action puts rest of the society at greater risk. This is not 'caring for each other'. This is literally 'care for yourself and screw everyone else'


Please re-read what I had about impacts and outcome.

There is the first impact of 'safer' in terms of spread as you put it. We have different views on that, and it makes no sense to argue because you will continue with your stats which I am not fully confident in the actual numbers.

The second fact is that right now, UNVACCINATED people with COVID are the people that are overwhelming the health care system right now. Not the obese not the smokers, etc. If we did not have unvaccinated people, the health care system would not overwhelmed with them. If our healthcare was not overwhelmed, I would also not care as much. If you take out the obese or smokers, which they did by cancelling so many of these surgeries, the system is still overwhelmed. Before you discuss not protecting people, because testing will not stop someone who has COVID from have severe outcomes, we need to answer. How does one stop the system from being overwhelmed when the majority of those are unvaccinated? Hmmmmmm... testing is not the answer for this problem (testing only answers to problem of reducing spread), the answer would be vaccinate.

So if the government cares about people they will do it in two fold. 
1. Testing - which I already agreed would reduce spread 
2. Vaccination - which would reduce severe outcomes. 

Which one outcome would you rather have?
1. More people getting sick but having mild outcomes and recovering
2. Less people getting sick, but those that do end up in the hospital taking away surgery beds.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> One employee refused and was terminated. Her job was posted the next day. She got no sympathy from her fellow workers.


You shouldn't have to consent to a life threatening medical procedure to obtain a job.
That's pretty much common sense.


----------



## sags

You don't. All you have to do is get vaccinated, like everybody else.


----------



## Beaver101

SickKids Hospital puts 147 workers on unpaid leave for not providing proof of full COVID-19 vaccination

Above is current - 147 workers at SickKids put on "unpaid" leave. I'm waiting to see the next step of "termination" after its the vaccination-requirement deadline. 

Meanwhile I wonder how much confidence do the parents have on this hospital treating their kids.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> SickKids Hospital puts 147 workers on unpaid leave for not providing proof of full COVID-19 vaccination
> 
> Above is current - 147 workers at SickKids put on "unpaid" leave. I'm waiting to see the next step of termination - past vaccination deadline. I wonder how much confidence do the parents have on this hospital treating their kids.


I don't know. Maybe next time healthcare workers should all quit when pandemic begins and not treat people until the vaccine is invented and they have time to get fully vaccinated?
Clearly without it they are not capable of treating people?


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> I don't know. Maybe next time healthcare workers should all quit when pandemic begins and not treat people until the vaccine is invented and they have time to get fully vaccinated?
> Clearly without it they are not capable of treating people?


 ... no, how about they go into another profession where they don't need to treat people? With no need to jab, stab, cut or touch other people. 

Be an executive where all you do is shoot some crap from the mouth and direct other people to do the actual work, like cleaning the toilets. 

You do realize healthcare workers need to "vaccinated" for influenza in the first place? So what's with this vaccination-alienation all of a sudden?


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... no, how about they go into another profession where they don't need to treat people? With no need to jab, stab, cut or touch other people.
> 
> Be an executive where all you do is shoot some crap from the mouth and direct other people to do the actual work, like cleaning the toilets.
> 
> You do realize healthcare workers need to "vaccinated" for influenza in the first place? So what's with this vaccination-alienation all of a sudden?


It makes no difference what they do after. They can retire, go different profession. Who cares?
Clearly there should be no doctors, nurses, healthcare specialists treating anyone during pandemic since there weren't vaccinated against the virus causing the pandemic. 
Why were they allowed to treat COVID patients until now? Why were they allowed to treat COVID patients in 2020? 
The audacity!
Healthcare personnel should just refuse work until vaccine is developed since clearly they aren't worthy without it


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> It makes no difference what they do after. They can retire, go different profession. Who cares?


 ... exactly, right after they're terminated from the hospital.



> Clearly there should be no doctors, nurses, healthcare specialists treating anyone during pandemic since there weren't vaccinated against the virus causing the pandemic.
> Why were they allowed to treat COVID patients until now? Why were they allowed to treat COVID patients in 2020?
> The audacity!


 ... would it surprise you that of those 147 workers include a doctor or a nurse or a frontline specialist or maybe even a couple of them? I wouldn't because until the mandate comes into effect, we'll have our revelation. 



> Healthcare personnel should just refuse work until vaccine is developed since clearly they aren't worthy without it


 ... they sure can, just quit until a vaccine is developed for their liking/belief. Talk about self-discrimination in the making.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... exactly, right after they're terminated from the hospital.
> 
> ... would it surprise you that of those 147 workers include a doctor or a nurse or a frontline specialist or maybe even a couple of them? I wouldn't because until the mandate comes into effect, we'll have our revelation.
> 
> ... they sure can, just quit until a vaccine is developed for their liking/belief.


you are one of those 44% of illiterate Canadian adults, aren't you?

Let me rephrase:
Should ALL front line and healthcare workers quit and switch careers March 2020?
After all, they are net negative to healthcare system apparently.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> you are one of those 44% of illiterate Canadian adults, aren't you?


 ... only if the post is coming from you.



> Let me rephrase:
> Should ALL front line and healthcare workers quit and switch careers March 2020?
> After all, they are net negative to healthcare system apparently.


 ... if they had a crystal-ball and wanted to. No one was stopping them. And why ALL? Do you paint everyone the same or trying to - the twisting, the spinning?

You can bet your pony that you're not going to see the top surgeon at any hospital allowing his/her "unvaccinated" associates to be on his/her team. That's why the hospital is mandating an overall (same) policy - to-be-vaccinated for everyone, in the best interest/care for everyone, employee, patients, visitors, et al.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... only if the post is coming from you.
> 
> ... if they had a crystal-ball and wanted to. No one was stopping them. And why ALL? Do you paint everyone the same or trying to - the twisting, the spinning?
> 
> You can bet your pony that you're not going to see the top surgeon at any hospital allowing his/her "unvaccinated" associates to be on his/her team. That's why the hospital is mandating an overall (same) policy - to-be-vaccinated for everyone, in the best interest/care for everyone, employee, patients, visitors, et al.


No. They ALL were unvaccinated at that point. Since unvaccinated person is NET NEGATIVE to healthcare system then ALL and EACH of them were net negative for health care system.

Having less staff while in a shortage is never in best interest of patients.
It wasn't in march 2020 so firing staff then for being unvaccinated would be stupid.
It isn't in october 2021 so firing staff now for being unvaccinated would be stupid.


----------



## Eder

Well Florida is no where close to the average vaccine rate but....

Florida’s per capita Covid rate is now second-lowest in the U.S.
Best part is they did it without masks or restrictions.








Florida Covid Cases Plummet | City Journal


Florida’s per capita Covid rate is now second-lowest in the U.S.




www.city-journal.org


----------



## sags

It seems odd that Florida's death rate from covid remains among the highest in the US.









Florida’s COVID-19 deaths are still among the highest in the nation


The state has seen its cases and hospitalizations decline but an analysis from the New York Times finds its death rate is still among the highest in the country.




wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu


----------



## damian13ster

They are 10th in United States, Texas is 18th.
You don't hear governors of the states above them called grim reapers, murderers, sending kids to death, etc.
All politics for people who can't analyze simple facts and don't understand statistics or probabilities.

Canada is exactly the same.
Single worst province for COVID deaths?
Two worst provinces by far in Canada for deaths/100,000 population:
Quebec and Manitoba. 
Yet during election no one ripped Quebec apart. They ripped Alberta and Saskatchewan, provinces who have half of the death rate that Quebec does.
Politics. 
People are too limited or don't care enough to look up facts so divisive rhetoric and hate spread by politicians is successful. Now this country no longer has any empathy and citizens hate each other. All because we ignore science and facts.


----------



## sags

_Although Florida has reported lower COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations over the past few weeks, the state’s death rate is still among the highest in the nation.

An analysis from the New York Times finds that the number of *COVID-19 deaths in Florida per 100,000 is the third highest in the country over the past seven days*. And the *state’s daily death average of 239.7 is higher than any other state*._


----------



## damian13ster

Yes, you choose a single data point from a week ago that is no longer true.
You read a headline without actually looking at what is said, what it signifies, and as of when it is applicable
I chose number for the entire pandemic.









U.S. COVID death rate by state 2022 | Statista


As of October 2022, Mississippi had the highest COVID death rate in the U.S., with 436 deaths per 100,000 population. Vermont had the lowest death rate.




www.statista.com





We do the same thing in Canada.
Quebec did by far the worst job of entire Canada. yet politically it is not good to attack them so people focus on Alberta and Saskatchewan, provinces which did relatively good job over entire duration of the pandemic, with death rate HALF of that of Quebec


----------



## zinfit

Eder said:


> Well Florida is no where close to the average vaccine rate but....
> 
> Florida’s per capita Covid rate is now second-lowest in the U.S.
> Best part is they did it without masks or restrictions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida Covid Cases Plummet | City Journal
> 
> 
> Florida’s per capita Covid rate is now second-lowest in the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.city-journal.org


Yes the collapse in the numbers is remarkable. Going from the worst to second best in month. Some of this stuff is hard to figure. I keep thinking July, August and early September is the indoor gathering seasoning in Florida . Much like December, January and Feb is the season for such gatherings in Canada. Anyways its positive news.


----------



## Eder

Well my 300 lb marlin is waiting to welcome me to Key Largo in December. The fish dont wear masks either.


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> SickKids Hospital puts 147 workers on unpaid leave for not providing proof of full COVID-19 vaccination
> 
> Above is current - 147 workers at SickKids put on "unpaid" leave. I'm waiting to see the next step of "termination" after its the vaccination-requirement deadline.
> 
> Meanwhile I wonder how much confidence do the parents have on this hospital treating their kids.


 ... here comes the tsunami,

Nearly 200 unvaccinated employees with the University Health Network are expected to be terminated today

Imagine how much the hospitals will save with the "termination with cause". Must be a good time to be(come) an employment lawyer too as I can't imagine which other (public) hospital (in Ontario that's) is accepting un-vaccinated employees. Duh.

And better saved up a bundle or be prepared to take a self-paid vacation:

Workers who resist vaccine mandates may not be eligible for EI, according to feds


----------



## sags

Labor lawyers say the un-vaxxed can be fired for just cause and would be ineligible for EI, but some argue the employees may still be eligible for severance pay.

As employers advertise for jobs, if the requirements include full vaccination, that is legal.

Any job related benefits are also gone with the job, including healthcare benefits, pension contributions, and life insurance.

Erin O'Toole also has a major problem on his hands, as his unvaxxed MPs or their staff won't be allowed into government buildings.

If the Conservatives want a vote on it, they will lose as the other 4 parties are in favor. 

But, an open vote will mean some Conservative MPs will vote either for and against the motion.

It will be interesting to see how O'Toole navigates this mess.


----------



## damian13ster

Why do you see it as a mess? Should party leader be even allowed to disclose medical information of its member?
Do they have legal right to do so? Thought that information is private and can be shared only by the individual.

I would certainly sue if my supervisor/boss/employer shared my personal information without my consent.


----------



## zinfit

I figure the pandemic is a game changer and individual rights and freedoms will be pushed to the side in favour of public health and combatting covid. The Constitutional Freedom people have challenged government restrictions and controls and from what I know their litigation has failed on all fronts. I figure terminated employees in the healthcare system will not be successful in their lawsuits. If I recall correctly the nurse's union in Ontario called for vaccine mandates. They don't even have the support of their own unions.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Erin O'Toole also has a major problem on his hands, as his unvaxxed MPs or their staff won't be allowed into government buildings.
> 
> If the Conservatives want a vote on it, they will lose as the other 4 parties are in favor.
> 
> But, an open vote will mean some Conservative MPs will vote either for and against the motion.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how O'Toole navigates this mess.


You have no idea the can of worms you're entering into when one party can arbitrarily deny access to their political opponents. 
Make no mistake, this is clearly a political attack.
There is virtually no risk to the vaccinated politicians, and limited risk to those following proper procedures. There should be no issue, unless "they know" the vaccine isn't as effective as they claim.

This is an insanely dangerous precedent.

The personal medical history of an MP is nobodies business.
Assuming they can behave as well as an 8yr old student, and follow health guidelines it should be no issue. Yes I agree that it's a stretch to expect them to behave.

That being said, I think if they want to put rules on MP access to Parliament, the rules should be selected by an overwhelming majority (ie 80 or 90%).


----------



## sags

I would say it is a big mess for O'Toole.

He originally stated the Conservatives would not support the vaccination rule.

On Wednesday he stated the Conservatives would observe the vaccination ruling.

On Friday, he flip flopped again and said the Conservatives would oppose the vaccination rule.

Apparently he doesn't speak for the party anymore and got told by the Conservative hard liners that they wouldn't support him.

He earned a new nickname on social media........"Iffy" O'Toole.

They say his military training well taught him how to do an "about face".

He wants to be open and transparent, so he lays out all his different stands on an issue and people can choose which one they personally prefer.


----------



## sags

The Liberals, NDP, Green and Bloc all support the vaccination rule. Some Conservative MPs also support the rule.

The Bloc say they won't participate in a Parliament with un-vaxxed MPs and staffers wandering around.

So the only remedy may be for the government to go strictly with a virtual Parliament.

Some MPs say the investment in the technology has already been made and they may as well use it again.

So much for the Conservatives complaining for regular sittings in the Parliament.

What would the Conservatives say then ? The other parties refuse to have in person sessions and allow our un-vaxxed MPs to join in ?

It is a problem alright........a big, messy problem for someone who hopes to be the PM of Canada some day but lacks the necessary leadership credibility.

Personally, I think O'Toole is quite content to be 2nd fiddle and enjoy the perks of the opposition leadership and not have to do much.

After all, it does provide a free home, free car and driver, free office staff, a nice raise and a significantly larger gold plated pension for life.

Nice work.........if he can keep it.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> I would say it is a big mess for O'Toole.
> 
> He originally stated the Conservatives would not support the vaccination rule.
> 
> On Wednesday he stated the Conservatives would observe the vaccination ruling.
> 
> On Friday, he flip flopped again and said the Conservatives would oppose the vaccination rule.
> 
> Apparently he doesn't speak for the party anymore and got told by the Conservative hard liners that they wouldn't support him.
> 
> He earned a new nickname on social media........"Iffy" O'Toole.
> 
> They say his military training well taught him how to do an "about face".
> 
> *He wants to be open and transparent, so he lays out all his different stands on an issue and people can choose which one they personally prefer.*


 ... ah, the current modus operandus. 

So O'Toole's nickname is "Iffy", not that it's anything new since flip-flopper has been taken.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukraine sees new record high in virus deaths, infections

Isn't Russia taking the lead on this?


----------



## sags

With only a 15% vaccination rate, a tragic 4th wave was inevitable.


----------



## damian13ster

New study from Qatar:
Effectiveness of Pfizer vaccine drops to 20% after 5-7 months.
But sure, let's remove people who are 93% protected from spreading









Pfizer’s Vaccine Protection May Wane After 2 Months


The protection from Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine may begin to wane against infection after 2 months, but it still prevents hospitalization and death for at least 6 months, according to two new studies published Wednesday in The New England Journal of Medicine.




www.webmd.com


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> New study from Qatar:
> Effectiveness of Pfizer vaccine drops to 20% after 5-7 months.
> But sure, let's remove people who are 93% protected from spreading
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pfizer’s Vaccine Protection May Wane After 2 Months
> 
> 
> The protection from Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine may begin to wane against infection after 2 months, but it still prevents hospitalization and death for at least 6 months, according to two new studies published Wednesday in The New England Journal of Medicine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com


I get it . But the vaccine does prime the immune system so it is ready to go if one gets infected and will limit severe cases.. Your point about testing has merit and might be a solution for workplace and employment issues. How it is administered ,managed and paid for becomes the issue. Canada's insistence on a PCR test within 72 hours for incoming travellers has problems. I would think a rapid test within a 24 hour of departure would be a better process. Tests only tell you the status at the time the test is taken.


----------



## damian13ster

Yes, but the chances of getting infected in any 3 day period are pretty much 0 (0.0018% in Canada to be precise).
Meanwhile you are 93% sure you were not infected just 3 days ago
With vaccination, you are only 20% sure you are not infected.
You are much higher danger to the society, yet you are allowed to go anywhere without testing.
It makes absolutely no sense. Bunch of science-deniers in government.

Of course Canadian media is silent. Science isn't worth communicating if it contradicts the narrative


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> With only a 15% vaccination rate, a tragic 4th wave was inevitable.


A 4th wave was always invevitable, we don't even have high levels of vaccinations anymore, many of our vaccinations have likely degraded.
But the government is blocking our third dose.

The poor handling of this embarrasing.


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> A 4th wave was always invevitable, we don't even have high levels of vaccinations anymore, many of our vaccinations have likely degraded.
> But the government is blocking our third dose.
> 
> The poor handling of this embarrasing.


A lot of experts are saying otherwise. One could argue the 4th wave is over in Ontario. I don’t think we have a definitive answer either way. And i learned today that a 3rd shot and a booster are technically different things. A booster is a different formula or dose. 

some provinces/territories are offering a 3rd dose. I think you’ll see more action soon as the stockpile approaches expiry dates.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> And i learned today that a 3rd shot and a booster are technically different things. A booster is a different formula or dose.


They may or may not be the same thing.

My first shot was AZ, my 2nd shot (booster) was Pfizer, I have no idea what my 3rd shot will be. 
But based on the data currently available my protection has likely decreased significantly


----------



## zinfit

If I understand the vaccines the protection against getting infected declines significantly but your immune system still have the capacity to prevent a severe illness.


----------



## sags

zinfit said:


> If I understand the vaccines the protection against getting infected declines significantly but your immune system still have the capacity to prevent a severe illness.


Yes, and vaccinated people don't spread the virus as readily.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> If I understand the vaccines the protection against getting infected declines significantly but your immune system still have the capacity to prevent a severe illness.


Yes, but if the goal of vaccination is to stop the spread, preventing people from getting infected is the important part.
Current data suggests we should get our boosters now, as the effectiveness has declined significantly.








Effectiveness of mRNA BNT162b2 COVID-19 vaccine up to 6 months in a large integrated health system in the USA: a retrospective cohort study


Our results provide support for high effectiveness of BNT162b2 against hospital admissions up until around 6 months after being fully vaccinated, even in the face of widespread dissemination of the delta variant. Reduction in vaccine effectiveness against SARS-CoV-2 infections over time is...



www.thelancet.com





If the goal of vaccination was to protect vaccinated people from being hospitalized, that's fine, but then they are not using vaccination to stop the spread, and the aggressive vaccination push is unwarranted.

Right now most Canadians are 4+ out from their second dose and according to the Lancet study above, we're spreading many times more than we were a month after vaccination.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Right now most Canadians are 4+ out from their second dose and according to the Lancet study above, we're spreading many times more than we were a month after vaccination.


But behaviours have changed. People used to be cautious; now they are not.

People are now gathering, partying, packing the bars and restaurants. I'm a cautious guy and even I had three social gatherings over the last week (something I would have never done in 2020).

I had one gathering at a bar with 3 other people, rather close proximity. We're all vaccinated and covid rates in that city were low, but it's still a high risk scenario. If one person at that table of 4 had covid, they could easily infect someone else.

Since people are gathering more and are less cautious and fearful than before, it's natural that we would see more infections occurring. It doesn't mean the vaccine isn't working. Sadly the human behaviour is part of this equation.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> They may or may not be the same thing.
> 
> My first shot was AZ, my 2nd shot (booster) was Pfizer, I have no idea what my 3rd shot will be.
> But based on the data currently available my protection has likely decreased significantly


 ... I'm not aware ATM of any healthy (aka not immune-compromised, elderly or health-vulnerable) Canadian getting a 3rd anti-Covid shot. Besides, I'm still waiting for my flu-shot.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ... I'm not aware ATM of any healthy (aka not immune-compromised, elderly or health-vulnerable) Canadian getting a 3rd anti-Covid shot. Besides, I'm still waiting for my flu-shot.


A few provinces and territories are offering 3rd shots to healthy older folks. 65+? I think one or two provinces are offering 3rd shots simply for travel purposes to those who received two mixed doses.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... I'm not aware ATM of any healthy (aka not immune-compromised, elderly or health-vulnerable) Canadian getting a 3rd anti-Covid shot. Besides, I'm still waiting for my flu-shot.


Flu shot clinics are just starting here.

The government is blocking third shots for most Canadians.
This really has become political.

If they're trying to stop COVID, we should be getting boosters every 4-6 months.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> But behaviours have changed. People used to be cautious; now they are not.
> 
> People are now gathering, partying, packing the bars and restaurants. I'm a cautious guy and even I had three social gatherings over the last week (something I would have never done in 2020).


Part of that is we're tired of restrictions, and that the government has sent out a message saying "double vax == safe"

Give boosters and do what you can, Canadians are more compliant and accepting than Texans, but we've got limits, and we're at them.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Flu shot clinics are just starting here.


 ... I get mine's annually at the doctor's office but she has none ATM. News from Ontario's health is a call for patience, will be here next month for the mass (Toronto).



> The government is blocking third shots for most Canadians.
> This really has become political.


 ... why do you say that. Headlines showed top medical officers have decided 3rd shots are not required for most Canadians. [For one, I'm NOT looking forward to a 3rd shot and no, I'm not converting to anti-vaxxing.]



> *If they're trying to stop COVID, we should be getting boosters every 4-6 months.*


 ... so you're in the belief that we can "stop" Covid with vaccines? 

And boosters every 4-6 months, that would be insane. Aren't you afraid of getting a lynch by anti-vaxxers for suggesting this?


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Yes, but if the goal of vaccination is to stop the spread, preventing people from getting infected is the important part.
> Current data suggests we should get our boosters now, as the effectiveness has declined significantly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Effectiveness of mRNA BNT162b2 COVID-19 vaccine up to 6 months in a large integrated health system in the USA: a retrospective cohort study
> 
> 
> Our results provide support for high effectiveness of BNT162b2 against hospital admissions up until around 6 months after being fully vaccinated, even in the face of widespread dissemination of the delta variant. Reduction in vaccine effectiveness against SARS-CoV-2 infections over time is...
> 
> 
> 
> www.thelancet.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the goal of vaccination was to protect vaccinated people from being hospitalized, that's fine, but then they are not using vaccination to stop the spread, and the aggressive vaccination push is unwarranted.
> 
> Right now most Canadians are 4+ out from their second dose and according to the Lancet study above, we're spreading many times more than we were a month after vaccination.


If everyone is vaccinated the risk of hospitalization is reduced by eleven fold. I am fairly certain that is the ratio the CDC has determined. That in itself is a very worthy purpose especially living in province were the unvaccinated have virtually clogged up the healthcare system.


----------



## MrMatt

MrMatt said:


> The government is blocking third shots for most Canadians.
> This really has become political.





Beaver101 said:


> ... why do you say that. Headlines showed top medical officers have decided 3rd shots are not required for most Canadians. [For one, I'm NOT looking forward to a 3rd shot and no, I'm not converting to anti-vaxxing.]


Uhh, do you realize you're agreeing with me?
The "experts" say that 3rd shots aren't required, so they're not allowing most of us to get third shots. 
I think those experts are wrong, data shows that after 4-6 months the vaccine is much less effective at preventing spread.



> ... so you're in the belief that we can "stop" Covid with vaccines?


Not without a better vaccine, or boosters we can't. Even then it might not be enough.

But the current vaccine, with it's current administration schedule is NOT enough. That's my specific issue with the messaging from the government.



> And boosters every 4-6 months, that would be insane. Aren't you afraid of getting a lynch by anti-vaxxers for suggesting this?


If you look back to early summer 2020, I was suggesting that this was going to be required due to the tendancy of Coronaviruses to mutate quickly. I even commented that a yearly booster to coincide with the flu shot would be great.

Yes 2-3 shots/yr would be problematic I said so more than a year ago.

Why would I be lynched by antivaxxers?
I in general disagree with them not getting vaccinated, but I support their right to opt out.
You do realize that reasonable people can disagree in a respectful manner.

The thing I can't get over is the authoritarians demanding everyone get vaccinated, while most Canadians have vaccines that have significantly degraded ability to prevent spread.
If you want to prevent spread, by vaccine, get the 70-80% of vaccinated Canadians to get a third shot/booster. That will have a larger impact than pressing on the 10% or so who don't want to be vaccinated.


----------



## sags

It is the small minority of Canadians who choose to be un-vaccinated who are spreading the virus and clogging up the hospitals.

If we could send them somewhere it would be good.


----------



## damian13ster

Yep, to have vaccines limit the spread in any way, you need to take them every 3-4 months according to the data published in British Journal of Medicine that was posted here yesterday. 
Otherwise vaccines are pretty useless at stopping the spread and we can save money to spend on tests instead if this is the goal.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> It is the small minority of Canadians who choose to be un-vaccinated who are spreading the virus and clogging up the hospitals.
> 
> If we could send them somewhere it would be good.


You aren't even allowing them to leave the country 😅


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> It is the small minority of Canadians who choose to be un-vaccinated who are spreading the virus and clogging up the hospitals.
> 
> If we could send them somewhere it would be good.


You again make unsubstantiated claims.

Where is your evidence the spread is being done by unvaccinated people?
You realize that most vaccinated people have vaccines with reduced effectiveness.
The spread is being done by people with COVID, likely those not following COVID restrictions.

They're likely still causing most of the spread.
That's why I'm advocating for 3rd doses, unlike the antivax government who is blocking them.


The fact that the government is refusing third doses is prolonging this pandemic. I wonder who they're getting advise from? Dr "no mask needed" Tam?


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Uhh, do you realize you're agreeing with me?


 ... how's that? I was asking the question "when does getting a 3rd shot becomes political"?



> The "experts" say that 3rd shots aren't required, so they're not allowing most of us to get third shots.
> I think those experts are wrong, data shows that after 4-6 months the vaccine is much less effective at preventing spread.


 ... based on your logic, do you want them to say "3rd shots are required for "everyone" but we're not giving them". You do realize that certain (albeit small) segments of the population are getting 3rd shots (see Money's post).

I don't get you here - the experts are wrong - does this mean you are right that the 3rd shot will prevent spread? Are you really looking forward to that 3rd shot, never mind the sense of entitlement.



> Not without a better vaccine, or boosters we can't. Even then it might not be enough.


 ... repeat (for the umpteenth time): the vaccine is not a "silver bullet". So I agree it may not be enough to stop the spread, let alone stop Covid on its track. We know by now, there're other tools (if not cheaper) - masks, hand-washing, and social distancing. If we can slow the spread to the point of being lucky to "break" the chain (then known as "stop"), then we may be able to end Covid.



> But the current vaccine, with it's current administration schedule is NOT enough. That's my specific issue with the messaging from the government.


 ... has always been the problem. Let's start at the beginning with the procurement office (which you were fine with)... what a F-up there. That's why I'm not looking forward to the 3rd shot - only because the F-up there doesn't know their own schedule. I have no issue with taking the vaccine itself but don't want to go through that "maze" of getting one - like with the first and the second (particularly).



> If you look back to early summer 2020, I was suggesting that this was going to be required due to the tendancy of Coronaviruses to mutate quickly. I even commented that a yearly booster to coincide with the flu shot would be great.
> 
> Yes 2-3 shots/yr would be problematic I said so more than a year ago.


 ... I don't disagree dumping (or merging) the Covid - vaccine with the flu-shot would be great.



> Why would I be lynched by antivaxxers?
> I in general disagree with them not getting vaccinated, but I support their right to opt out.
> You do realize that reasonable people can disagree in a respectful manner.


 ... I don't disagree with the latter but do you agree that anti-vaxxers are "reasonable" people, especially those that protest outside of hospitals? I don't.



> The thing I can't get over is the authoritarians demanding everyone get vaccinated, while most Canadians have vaccines that have significantly degraded ability to prevent spread.


 ... it shouldn't have gotten to the point of a vaccine-mandate if only some people is aware there is 1. a social responsibility, and 2.stop being so selfish (or a *****).



> If you want to prevent spread, by vaccine, get the 70-80% of vaccinated Canadians to get a third shot/booster. That will have a larger impact than pressing on the 10% or so who don't want to be vaccinated.


 ... no, that 10% will continue to be problematic (moreso with a new emerging variant)- as recall waaay back what I said, it just take 1 person to start a spread, hence a pandemic.


----------



## damian13ster

And who is that one person going to spread to if everyone else is supposedly protected by the vaccine? That's a very unintelligent sentence you got there.

And vaccines don't stop the spread. They barely slow it down. For that very reason it is not selfish not to take one. Is it a poor choice? Yes. The only person you are hurting however is yourself. You don't harm anyone else.
It is selfish not to test. You spread disease to others when not tested. That's selfish. I don't see any effort to have everyone tested. On the contrary. Tons of vaccinated people say they aren't willing to be tested regularly because they are vaccinated and protected. Screw the fact that they are protected themselves but spread to others - that's selfish.
Government disincentivizing testing is another problem that is intentionally prolonging the pandemic.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> You again make unsubstantiated claims.
> 
> Where is your evidence the spread is being done by unvaccinated people?
> You realize that most vaccinated people have vaccines with reduced effectiveness.
> The spread is being done by people with COVID, likely those not following COVID restrictions.
> 
> They're likely still causing most of the spread.
> That's why I'm advocating for 3rd doses, unlike the antivax government who is blocking them.


 ... since when did our government gone anti-vax? On your not getting the 3rd dose? I would like to see you protest over at Ottawa with sign "I want my 3rd dose of vaccine!" That would be pretty cool. Or how about you applying for Ms. Anand or her boss' job.



> The fact that the government is refusing third doses is prolonging this pandemic. I wonder who they're getting advise from? Dr "no mask needed" Tam?


 ... is Dr. "no mask needed" Tam Ms. Anand's boss? See above. If you think Dr. Tam is doing such a lousy job, make your suggestion known to PM Junior to see her replaced. In fact, her entire team replaced.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> And who is that one person going to spread to if everyone else is supposedly protected by the vaccine? That's a very unintelligent sentence you got there.
> 
> And vaccines don't stop the spread. They barely slow it down. For that very reason it is not selfish not to take one. Is it a poor choice? Yes. The only person you are hurting however is yourself. You don't harm anyone else.
> It is selfish not to test. You spread disease to others when not tested. That's selfish. I don't see any effort to have everyone tested. On the contrary. Tons of vaccinated people say they aren't willing to be tested regularly because they are vaccinated and protected. Screw the fact that they are protected themselves but spread to others - that's selfish.
> Government disincentivizing testing is another problem that is intentionally prolonging the pandemic.


 ... whatever you say.


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> ... since when did our government gone anti-vax? On your not getting the 3rd dose? I would like to see you protest over at Ottawa with sign "I want my 3rd dose of vaccine!" That would be pretty cool. Or how about you applying for Ms. Anand or her boss' job.
> 
> ... is Dr. "no mask needed" Tam Ms. Anand's boss? See above. If you think Dr. Tam is doing such a lousy job, make your suggestion known to PM Junior to see her replaced. In fact, her entire team replaced.


i could certainly agree with last point. I have been following Scott Gotlieb's observations throughout and has made much more sense then Tan and her gang.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

I feel we are at a crossroad - 2 years in this pandemic. According to unstable data, a large majority of the population is vaccinated. We keep saying the unvaccinated are spreading the virus and clogging medical resources. Yet, studies show that both vaccinated and unvaccinated are spreading the virus and being hospitalized, albeit, the vaccinated at a lower rate. Its unclear what the effectiveness and longevity of a vaccine should be....given we are now talking about boosters. 

I'm no anti-vaxxer, got my 2 shots, never contracted covid and I believe in the measures we have taken. But I now question where all this is leading us. It seems the deeper we disect and interpret data, the more we are loosing this war.


----------



## damian13ster

It is leading precisely where it is meant to lead us. Segregation, division, hate.
Why do you think election was during pandemic? Look at the wedge issues. They weren't meant to repair the country or to plan post-pandemic government. They were precisely designed to segregate, divide, promote hate.


----------



## zinfit

Mortgage u/w said:


> I feel we are at a crossroad - 2 years in this pandemic. According to unstable data, a large majority of the population is vaccinated. We keep saying the unvaccinated are spreading the virus and clogging medical resources. Yet, studies show that both vaccinated and unvaccinated are spreading the virus and being hospitalized, albeit, the vaccinated at a lower rate. Its unclear what the effectiveness and longevity of a vaccine should be....given we are now talking about boosters.
> 
> I'm no anti-vaxxer, got my 2 shots, never contracted covid and I believe in the measures we have taken. But I now question where all this is leading us. It seems the deeper we disect and interpret data, the more we are loosing this war.


I appreciate your point . We shouldn't lose sight of the evidence that hospitalizations are eleven times lower for vaccinated. That is pretty important in managing this disease. If we were all vaccinated the number of people in hospitals with cvid would be a fraction of the current level. I understand that vaccinated people do spread the virus . The research seems to indicate at a much lower rate . Even with the waning effectiveness of the vaccines we are may-be talking 20% for Pfizer and 65% for Moderna. So that reduces the risk by a not insignificant number. For breakthrough cases most experts say the viral load is much smaller with the vaccinated and the duration of the infection is very short [4 to 7 days] . This itself reduces the risk of transmission. Especially transmission of serious loads of the virus. Sorry I am not linking sources but I think checking CDC research and other trusted sources will basically confirm these points,. I do agree that rapid test technology should be much better utilized. In combination with vaccinations it could keep hospitals and nursing homes safe from the virus.


----------



## bgc_fan

Mortgage u/w said:


> I feel we are at a crossroad - 2 years in this pandemic. According to unstable data, a large majority of the population is vaccinated. We keep saying the unvaccinated are spreading the virus and clogging medical resources. Yet, studies show that both vaccinated and unvaccinated are spreading the virus and being hospitalized, albeit, the vaccinated at a lower rate. Its unclear what the effectiveness and longevity of a vaccine should be....given we are now talking about boosters.
> 
> I'm no anti-vaxxer, got my 2 shots, never contracted covid and I believe in the measures we have taken. But I now question where all this is leading us. It seems the deeper we disect and interpret data, the more we are loosing this war.


You have to consider a few things when considering hospitalization. It's not just a lower rate, it's a factor of up to 30x, which is not insignificant. The other thing is demographics. You know one of the main contributors to being susceptible to covid is age. Unvaccinated 30 year olds are being admitted into the hospitals at a rate that vaccincated 80 year olds are being admitted. That's a pretty good effectiveness. Basically, if you told a 30 year old that they had the immune system of an 80 year old, don't you think that should give one pause?


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-severe-outcomes-covid-vaccination-1.6178449



Edit: The comparison for ICU is even worse.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

damian13ster said:


> It is leading precisely where it is meant to lead us. Segregation, division, hate.
> Why do you think election was during pandemic? Look at the wedge issues. They weren't meant to repair the country or to plan post-pandemic government. They were precisely designed to segregate, divide, promote hate.


That may seem what the outcome has resulted......not sure I agree that it was intentional.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> I appreciate your point . We shouldn't lose sight of the evidence that hospitalizations are eleven times lower for vaccinated. That is pretty important in managing this disease. If we were all vaccinated the number of people in hospitals with cvid would be a fraction of the current level. I understand that vaccinated people do spread the virus . The research seems to indicate at a much lower rate . Even with the waning effectiveness of the vaccines we are may-be talking 20% for Pfizer and 65% for Moderna. So that reduces the risk by a not insignificant number. For breakthrough cases most experts say the viral load is much smaller with the vaccinated and the duration of the infection is very short [4 to 7 days] . This itself reduces the risk of transmission. Especially transmission of serious loads of the virus. Sorry I am not linking sources but I think checking CDC research and other trusted sources will basically confirm these points,. I do agree that rapid test technology should be much better utilized. In combination with vaccinations it could keep hospitals and nursing homes safe from the virus.


Where do you have the data for viral load?
All the research I heard of shows that viral loads are the same for vaccinated vs unvaccinated








Similar viral load in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals infected with SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant


Researchers evaluated Ct-values among distinct groups, namely, a) completely vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals and b) asymptomatic and symptomatic individuals at the time of testing.




www.news-medical.net












Viral Loads Similar Between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated People


A new study from the University of California, Davis, Genome Center, UC San Francisco and the Chan Zuckerberg Biohub shows no significant difference in viral load between vaccinated and unvaccinated people who tested positive for the delta variant of SARS-CoV-2. It also found no significant...



www.ucdavis.edu






mortgage: so they unintentionally made a wedge issue out of it, while previously stating elections are about post-pandemic recovery? Happy accident on their part?
This is by far the most hate I have seen in Canada. The most hate and least empathy I have seen in any country so far. It isn't by accident. A 5-year old child could have predicted this will be consequence of their actions.


----------



## sags

How quickly we forget.

When the pandemic first arrived, nobody knew exactly the right protocol to take, including Dr. Tam and pretty well everyone else.

It was a novel virus and there was no history to rely on. We knew nothing about the virus before it arrived.

Remember when everyone was told to wipe down packages from Amazon outside your home ?

Remember when you would do business somewhere and immediately someone would spray down the counter before the next customer ?

It was much later that scientists learned the virus was airborne and could float around suspended in an infectious mist.

We now know that masks and testing wouldn't have defeated the virus. Masks offer limited protection and testing only tells us how many of us are infected.

It wasn't until the development of the vaccines that we had a fighting chance against the virus, but the battle rages on as the virus is still here.

Mistakes by scientists from the past were inevitable and it serves no purpose to dwell on them now.


----------



## damian13ster

I think people gave them a pass for a looooong time.
Now we are almost 2 years in the pandemic and officials still don't follow and deny science.
That's the problem, not what happened in first 2-3 months of the pandemic


----------



## sags

New variants are appearing all the time, that scientists know little about. It takes time and research to uncover the unanswered questions about each of them.

That is why vaccination is so important. We need to stop the mutations before one arrives that renders vaccines useless and we are back to the beginning.

The current Delta variant is considered a novel virus, so the protocols from other earlier viruses may not be effective anymore.

The un-vaccinated are human incubators for virus mutations.


----------



## damian13ster

There are a lot on answered questions. The answers aren't what officials like them though so they are ignored and not acknowledged.
That's the problem. Not the lack of science. The problem is that the officials are denying-science.

For example there is zero scientific evidence that un-vaccinated are anymore of incubators than vaccinated are. Mutation is about just as likely to come from vaccinated than un-vaccinated. Actually, mutation that will evade specific vaccine is most likely to be 'incubated' in a person who used the vaccine.
Precisely for the same reason why you build immunity when exposed to the virus or spike-protein.

You are making up facts that are straight-up denied by science in order to sow division and hate.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Science also tells us that vaccinations are working. 
How does one determine which research is accurate?


----------



## damian13ster

Mortgage u/w said:


> Science also tells us that vaccinations are working.
> How does one determine which research is accurate?


The very first step is to determine what 'working' means.
In terms of vaccinations there are at least two different metrics:

reduce severe cases/hospitalizations/death
reduce spread
They also vary with time from vaccination.

So it isn't a simple statement of 'they work or not'. The tendency to try to put every single thing into binary system is not good for constructive debate.
There is extremely good agreement among research results which show they work in the first metric.
There is really good agreement among research results which show they work in the second metric for a very short period of time and not very well


----------



## Money172375

I keep pointing to Ontario which has had phenomenal results the last few months. Not sure what’s driving it. Things feel more open than ever…..especially more as of today. Capacity limits in most areas are now gone, as is social distancing. 

either the summer and early fall have been on our side, or the vaccines are working at limiting spread. I don’t necessarily think peoples behaviour has been better……other than socializing outdoors vs indoors.

with capacity limits and social distancing gone…(really it’s only masks and vaccine eligible entrance restrictions left)….it will only be a few weeks to see what comes.


----------



## zinfit

Mortgage u/w said:


> Science also tells us that vaccinations are working.
> How does one determine which research is accurate?


I go with the public health authorities like the CDC and reputable health providers like John Hopkins and Mayo Clinic . The latter two are the first choice for most of the super wealthy around the word so I would put my money on their guidance. I don't include Health Canada as one of may sources.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... since when did our government gone anti-vax?


When they blocked AZ for rare reactions.
Now that we know we need third doses and they're not allowing them.



> On your not getting the 3rd dose? I would like to see you protest over at Ottawa with sign "I want my 3rd dose of vaccine!" That would be pretty cool. Or how about you applying for Ms. Anand or her boss' job.


I've sent my concerns to my MP, they can relay then.



> ... is Dr. "no mask needed" Tam Ms. Anand's boss? See above. If you think Dr. Tam is doing such a lousy job, make your suggestion known to PM Junior to see her replaced. In fact, her entire team replaced.


I think the entire PMO should be replaced, but apparently Canadians disagree.

I think Dr Tam, while being uniquely qualified for her position, has been an absolute failure.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

zinfit said:


> If we were all vaccinated the number of people in hospitals with cvid would be a fraction of the current level.


In Saskatchewan before the vaccines with everyone wearing a Muzzle we had 40 people in icu, now with everyone still muzzled and now with 1.7 million doses injected we have 70 in icu.
what is the point of this taxpayers funded circus 🤡?


----------



## sags

There has been an increase in the number of kids in Saskatchewan ICUs, since the schools re-opened.

There are low vaccination rates in some areas of Saskatchewan.

The government removed restrictions too early and re-applied them too late.

The Delta virus is also more infectious than the previous versions.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> How quickly we forget.
> 
> When the pandemic first arrived, nobody knew exactly the right protocol to take, including Dr. Tam and pretty well everyone else.
> 
> It was a novel virus and there was no history to rely on. We knew nothing about the virus before it arrived.


Nope, we pretty quickly knew it was a new Coronavirus strain.
We deal with these all the time, and had a particularly lethal one just a few years earlier.



> We now know that masks and testing wouldn't have defeated the virus. Masks offer limited protection and testing only tells us how many of us are infected.


Except that we got over the previous waves pretty nicely with just masks, handwashing and testing.



> Mistakes by scientists from the past were inevitable and it serves no purpose to dwell on them now.


Sure it does, if a particular expert has a habit of lying, ignoring the facts and data they have, and guessing wrong, we shouldn't trust them.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> There has been an increase in the number of kids in Saskatchewan ICUs, since the schools re-opened.


Because they didn't have masking.

Guess what, cram a bunch of people in a room, with no precautions, and they'll spread COVID.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The current Delta variant is considered a novel virus, so the protocols from other earlier viruses may not be effective anymore.


BS.
Wear a mask, wash your hands, don't share bodily fluids. Or more simply isolate from carriers.
Those three methods have worked to varying degrees on almost every pathogen in history

Are you suggesting that this new Coronavirus is going to be wildly different?
It's going to magically teleport into your body?


----------



## zinfit

Heading south on October 31. We were looking around for rapid antigen tests in Calgary at various Shopper's Drug. They were fully booked and said they had a heavy run for these tests as some of the anti-vaxxers need these tests every three days to keep their jobs. We did manage to book at test at High River which is 30 miles south of Calgary. Feel lucky to have secured these tests. We got a very good deal from American Airlines but these trips aren't cancellable. Hope this is useful for someone.


----------



## leoc2

FYI: My son is getting married the second week of November in the USA. This is how my wife and I will complete our Covid tests for our trip.

This link explains how Air Canada and SwitchHealth have combined forces to make Covid self testing available
https://globalnews.ca/news/8324594/air- ... ng-travel/

This link explains which Covid test kits that can be ordered.


https://switchhealth.ca/en/partners/aeroplan/



We have pre-purchased 1 antigen test quit (includes 2 tests) to take at home before we board our flight to USA. We have ordered 2 Molecular test kits to take with us to the USA. We will be able to telehealth from our Airbnb in the USA before boarding our return trip.

With our luck, this will likely trigger the Canadian government to change the Molecular test to an Antigen test and we will be out a few $$--Oh well!


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Be a sheep and live the rest of your life under the rock.


----------



## zinfit

leoc2 said:


> FYI: My son is getting married the second week of November in the USA. This is how my wife and I will complete our Covid tests for our trip.
> 
> This link explains how Air Canada and SwitchHealth have combined forces to make Covid self testing available
> https://globalnews.ca/news/8324594/air- ... ng-travel/
> 
> This link explains which Covid test kits that can be ordered.
> 
> 
> https://switchhealth.ca/en/partners/aeroplan/
> 
> 
> 
> We have pre-purchased 1 antigen test quit (includes 2 tests) to take at home before we board our flight to USA. We have ordered 2 Molecular test kits to take with us to the USA. We will be able to telehealth from our Airbnb in the USA before boarding our return trip.
> 
> With our luck, this will likely trigger the Canadian government to change the Molecular test to an Antigen test and we will be out a few $$--Oh well!


 It would be a welcomed change if they went with the antigen test. The PCR test can be quite expensive and it takes time to get the results.


----------



## Beaver101

Unvaxxed school staff bemoan frequent COVID tests

Here comes the bemoanings ... not unexpected. We (including vaxxeds), too want to go back to pre-pandemic ways to keep busy. Oh well, what self-made fun!


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> Unvaxxed school staff bemoan frequent COVID tests
> 
> Here comes the bemoanings ... not unexpected. We (including vaxxeds), too want to go back to pre-pandemic ways to keep busy. Oh well, what self-made fun!


I understand some of the fears (though not agreeing) with not getting vaccinated, but there is no good reason to not get tested. Testing is a very reasonable alternative. Some people will whine for everything. 

I am vaccinated and work from home most of the time. I get tested almost once a week, I would rather get it twice, but would then have to drive in (which defeats the purpose of working from home). 

I am very happy with my work safety policies (they keep everyone safe). We did have to show proof of vaccination by the end of this month. There is a testing centre that you can test any time you go in. For the month of November home testing kits will be available for all unvaccinated (sadly not vaccinated working from home), then in December those that choose to be unvaccinated still, will have to pay for their own testing. They will need a negative with 72 of each shift Those that are medically exempt will have the option for both home and office testing, those vaccinated can still test on site. 

When they first announced this, some complained, some quit on the spot 'on principle'. Over the last few weeks some of those that quit have come begging for their jobs back. They didn't realize if you quit (especially since it wasn't full policy yet), they get no EI, and they cannot find jobs. They are also realizing that other employers are doing the same or not even offering the choice. I think if the Feds really want get people to comply they will stop any COVID benefits for someone who chooses not to work (whether its literally not working or choosing not to follow the work requirements).


----------



## damian13ster

Some people just like to whine.
Like for example people who whine about other whining.

Also, you can't refuse people EI for not following work requirements if the work requirements were changed since the day of employment. Multiple lawyers stated that. 
They paid into the system, they entered the system knowing the rules, they deserve to be paid by the system.
If your employer suddenly decided to hire only women and you would get fired on the spot, or if their requirement was to have 20 years of experience from now on, meanwhile you only have 10, does that mean you should not get social benefits? Please, apply some common sense


----------



## Beaver101

^ Like J4B, I decided to take a sabbatical (possibly permanent) as the pandemic got protracted so in effect the mandate to be tested or vaccinated for "work=job" is irrelevant for me. I chose to be vaccinated for personal and social reasons.

However, my working friends' (just picking one here) has to follow her employer's mandate (just about for all industries these days) to be vaccinated (ie with proof) but not tested if WFH. [As for those who're legitimately exempted (haven't heard one yet even), accommodations will be made for that employee, whether WFH 100% of the times or tested if necessary. Her employer is cheap as tests cost money and they're already accommodating the exempts.] Now if she has to go into the office, all that is required is the temperature test with a series of questions at the door. I believe her employer trusts their employees to do the "right thing" (aka not lie when sick and going in).

Having said the above, I think your employer is doing an over-kill requiring you to be tested (rapid or whatever) especially when you're WFH most of the times, even they're willing to pay for those tests. I'm guessing your employer wants to be 110% safe (hence, your "very happy" with the safety policies of your company) for their employees which should be the case.

As for the "un-vaccinateds by right", it's their choice to have to put up with the "BS = tests, proofs, loss of job, no EI, aka the "laws" (and I don't blame them for calling that) as long we have Covid / the pandemic (ie. the spread). Ie. they can whine til the moon turn blue whilst the rest of us moves on.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Some people just like to whine.
> Like for example people who whine about other whining.
> 
> Also, you can't refuse people EI for not following work requirements if the work requirements were changed since the day of employment. Multiple lawyers stated that.
> They paid into the system, they entered the system knowing the rules, they deserve to be paid by the system.
> If your employer suddenly decided to hire only women and you would get fired on the spot, or if their requirement was to have 20 years of experience from now on, meanwhile you only have 10, does that mean you should not get social benefits? Please, apply some common sense


 ... you do realize it has been published by the EI people for employers to use "termination with cause" for not complying with the vaccine mandate (condition of employment). And I would not hesitate to guess plenty of employers will be using that tool given to them so to save a ton of money themselves plus the government (the goody-good-shoes employer). Because like the employer give a rat-axx that the employee has been paying EI for the past 30 years since it's good luck fighting both your employer and the EI office.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... you do realize it has been published by the EI people for employers to use "termination with cause" as not complying with the vaccine mandate. And I would not hesitate to guess plenty of employers will be using that tool given to them so to save both severance money and the government. Like employer give a rate that you've been paying EI for the past 30 years ... and good luck fighting both your employer and the EI office.


Doesn't matter. You can put 'terminated with cause', but if the cause is not a legal basis to removal from EI then you will still receive EI. Just listen to lawyers and not politicians. Politicians lie.
Law is clear on this.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Doesn't matter. You can put 'terminated with cause', but if the cause is not a legal basis to removal from EI then you will still receive EI. Just listen to lawyers and not politicians. Politicians lie.
> Law is clear on this.


 ... lawyers don't lie to earn their fees. Doesn't seem like the lawyers you know (or are you one) is clear on the laws. Who pays the EI benefits? Your lawyers?


----------



## damian13ster

Your message is gibberish again.
I pay EI benefits. All workers pay EI benefits. If you have a paycheque, you might notice there is a withdrawal there specifically for EI. My lawyers also pay EI benefits.
Law is clear on this. There is consensus on that.
Politicians lie and all their statements include words like 'probably', 'may', etc.
You will receive EI if you are fired for not being vaccinated, and vaccination wasn't in your original terms of employment


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Your message is gibberish again.


 ... if you say so, like with everything else that doesn't fit your thinking.



> I pay EI benefits. All workers pay EI benefits. If you have a paycheque, you might notice there is a withdrawal there specifically for EI. My lawyers also pay EI benefits.
> Law is clear on this. There is consensus on that.


 .... like your employer or its payroll department cares.


> Politicians lie and all their statements include words like 'probably', 'may', etc.


 .... and so, what's new. Has it never occurred to you that most (if not all) politicians started out as a lawyer?


> You will receive EI if you are fired for not being vaccinated, and vaccination wasn't in your original terms of employment


 ... like the EI people approving your application cares ... your ROE will state "terminated with cause" as designated by your employer and that means "no EI". If you don't agree with that reason, take it up with your employer and then we'll review your EI application. 

Better yet, get your lawyer to sue the EI department and see what your lawyer says to you.


----------



## damian13ster

You are working under assumption that employer will break the law and put "terminated with cause".
There is little indication of that happening.
Discussion in which prerequisite for the situation to appear is breaking of a law, is kind of pointless.
Hypothetically, if your employer breaks the law and puts "terminated with cause" then yes - it is advisable to get a lawyer and sue. That's obvious.
Don't know what kind of companies you work with though, if you assume they will break the law.


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> You are working under assumption that employer will break the law and put "terminated with cause".
> There is little indication of that happening.
> Discussion in which prerequisite for the situation to appear is breaking of a law, is kind of pointless.
> Hypothetically, if your employer breaks the law and puts "terminated with cause" then yes - it is advisable to get a lawyer and sue. That's obvious.
> Don't know what kind of companies you work with though, if you assume they will break the law.


The major media outlets have consulted top Canadian employment lawyers and it seems to be the consensus that terminated employees may not be entitled to EI. Anyways in Calgary major suppliers for rapid covid tests are booked full with people needing frequent tests to maintain their employment. Hopefully the J&J product is made available and these folks can block their anti-vaxxer sites for a day , get their last rites and hold their noses as they get one shot of this vaccine.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> The major media outlets have consulted top Canadian employment lawyers and it seems to be the consensus that terminated employees may not be entitled to EI. Anyways in Calgary major suppliers for rapid covid tests are booked full with people needing frequent tests to maintain their employment. Hopefully the J&J product is made available and these folks can block their anti-vaxxer sites for a day , get their last rites and hold their noses as they get one shot of this vaccine.


you have any sources of that?
Because only news from globalnews, cbc, ctvnews in regards to this just quote minister on this, and not any employment lawyers.
I did read couple of opinions that it might be true for federal corporations. Not for private though.


----------



## sags

Howard Levitt is one of the top employment lawyers in Ontario. 









Howard Levitt: Why the unvaccinated will never win in court


Courts are unlikely to go against prevalent public policy or incentivize unvaccinated employees




financialpost.com


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Howard Levitt is one of the top employment lawyers in Ontario.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Howard Levitt: Why the unvaccinated will never win in court
> 
> 
> Courts are unlikely to go against prevalent public policy or incentivize unvaccinated employees
> 
> 
> 
> 
> financialpost.com


That is an opinion piece with literally zero citations of existing laws. Read what you post.
His entire argument in the opinion piece fails if testing is involved. 
Look at actual employment laws and not opinion pieces. Better yet, just talk to your lawyer.


----------



## sags

Yup......an opinion piece by one of Canada's leading employment lawyers.

All the companies terminating un-vaxxed employees must be getting the same advice from their own lawyers as well.


----------



## damian13ster

Transport Canada now delayed implementation of mandatory vaccination for travel until November 30.

Wonder why?


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Yup......an opinion piece by one of Canada's leading employment lawyers.
> 
> All the companies terminating un-vaxxed employees must be getting the same advice from their own lawyers as well.


Do you have any source showing there are companies terminating their employees with cause?


----------



## sags

_"You can't do this to me"_, he said as they dragged him kicking and screaming out the door...._."don't you know who I am"_


----------



## sags

Companies can do anything they want. Employees get to hire a lawyer, schedule a hearing with the arbitrator in a year or two, and then present their case.

In the meantime........no job......no money.....no benefits.......no healthcare benefits........just the cost of paying the lawyer.

There is no hero riding to the rescue ordering the company to take you back immediately. You are now a statistic waiting for an arbitration hearing.

If you win an arbitration hearing......you might get your job back and you might get retroactive back pay.......or you might not.

The company could also accept the judgement and then decide to terminate you again and start the process over again.

That is what Toyota used to do. After being fired twice.....people tend to move on and it sends a message to everyone else.


----------



## damian13ster

Again, if you assume companies will break the law and try to screw everyone around then you have a point. 
Any discussion can end with 'if they break the law you will be screwed'.

Not sure what employers you work for but your life must have been quite miserable if you believe employers are out there to screw everyone to the point where they break a law, and you hate everyone who thinks differently, makes different choices, or have different opinion than you.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> You are working under assumption that employer will break the law and put "terminated with cause".
> There is little indication of that happening.


 ... I didn't assume provided you actually read sag's link in his post #4898 of which you then go and claim it's an "opinion" piece by an actual practicing employment lawyer (in Ontario, not your province). Btw, Howard Levitt is pro-employer, "not" pro-employee in case you didn't know. 


> Discussion in which prerequisite for the situation to appear is breaking of a law, is kind of pointless.
> Hypothetically, if your employer breaks the law and puts "terminated with cause" then yes - it is advisable to get a lawyer and sue. That's obvious.
> Don't know what kind of companies you work with though, if you assume they will break the law.


 ... you're the one assuming employers are "breaking the law" here. I hope by now you do realize most employers have lawyers too - in fact, the larger institution has an entire team of lawyers.


----------



## sags

In the employer's view, they aren't breaking the law. They are merely exercising their "management rights".


----------



## damian13ster

Well, so far, as long as I am aware, there wasn't a single attempt by employers to terminate anyone with cause for refusing to vaccinate. 
Doesn't seem like they are exercising their 'management rights' for some unknown reason......
The politicians are just lying to scare you. That's pretty much it. No action has been taken as of yet, and there is good reason for that


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Well, so far, as long as I am aware, there wasn't a single attempt by employers to terminate anyone with cause for refusing to vaccinate.
> Doesn't seem like they are exercising their 'management rights' for some unknown reason......


 ... of course not, if you don't live/work in Ontario.

Already 147 from SickKids have been put on unpaid leave so it's just a matter of time up - adioso with cause (news from Oct. 21, 2021). SickKids Hospital puts 147 workers on unpaid leave for not providing proof of full COVID-19 vaccination



> The politicians are just lying to scare you. That's pretty much it. No action has been taken as of yet, and there is good reason for that


 ... right 'cause the warning headlines are just for sensationalism as much as your posts.


----------



## damian13ster

Significant difference between unpaid leave and termination without cause. But I am sure you are aware of that.

Warning headlines are not for sensationalism - they are a scare tactic.

The facts are this:
Employer can request vaccination if it affects safety (working with immunocompromised population for example)
Employee has the right to refuse and submit to additional safety measures (example, work from home, testing)
Employer has to accept or will have no ground to terminate without cause.

As long as testing makes one safer for their work environment than vaccine, employer can't terminate with cause, assuming employee will submit to testing.
Luckily testing is far superior in assuring you don't spread disease than vaccination - that's the reason you didn't see and will never see termination with cause unless employee refuses vaccination AND testing


----------



## Money172375

Employers can do almost anything with notice.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Significant difference between unpaid leave and termination without cause. But I am sure you are aware of that.
> 
> *Warning headlines are not for sensationalism - they are a scare tactic.*


 .... and what's wrong with that so some people can get off their butts and stop denying what is going to happen. No one (well, some do) likes to tell others "I told you so".


----------



## damian13ster

What do you mean what's wrong with that? It is literally a question on whether rule of law still applies in Canada or the entire civic system we have had since this country was created ceases to exist. 
In the first half of 20th century people had same attitude than you do. We know how it ends. Let's not repeat the same mistakes.


----------



## Money172375

BC gonna offer 3rd shot to everyone. Will likely set a precedent 









B.C. health officials announce third booster shot available following second vaccine | Watch News Videos Online


Watch B.C. health officials announce third booster shot available following second vaccine Video Online, on GlobalNews.ca




globalnews.ca


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> What do you mean what's wrong with that? It is literally a question on whether rule of law still applies in Canada or the entire civic system we have had since this country was created ceases to exist.
> In the first half of 20th century people had same attitude than you do. We know how it ends. Let's not repeat the same mistakes.


 ... all of a sudden you're concerned with the "rule of law" on social medias. Are you for real or just love to spew all over the place?

I would presume you have a brain of your own to interpret any headline and then go applying your own beliefs. 

Oh and here're comes your right to "freedom of speech" but not for someone else ... talk about who's repeating the same mistakes with no improvement to attitude. Hint to answer: Mirror, mirror on the wall chant.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> BC gonna offer 3rd shot to everyone. Will likely set a precedent
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B.C. health officials announce third booster shot available following second vaccine | Watch News Videos Online
> 
> 
> Watch B.C. health officials announce third booster shot available following second vaccine Video Online, on GlobalNews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


 ... makes sense if Canada has a surplus. MrMatt will be very happy if this precedent comes to Ontario.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> In the employer's view, they aren't breaking the law. They are merely exercising their "management rights".


Well what if I demand a full DNA scan to ensure you're the type of employee we want?
It's my "management right" of course.


----------



## sags

Yup....you could demand that. A court may overturn the demand as being unreasonable........but that would be years down the road.

Who exactly do you think is going to come to save the workers facing unreasonable demands from an employer ?

Who do you call.........ghostbusters ?


----------



## damian13ster

In democratic country it would be judicial system and it would do it fast.
In authoritarian country - noone,
Which one does Canada fall under?


----------



## zinfit

Mortgage u/w said:


> Science also tells us that vaccinations are working.
> How does one determine which research is accurate?


Alberta has been doing an excellent job of compiling data on the vaccinations in that province. If you go to the Alberta Health site you should be able to get the answers you need. The relevant facts are almost 80% of everyone is full vaccinated. 80% of all covid hospitalizations are the unvaccinated. 90% of the ICU patients are unvaccinated. Close to 7 million vaccinations and 1800 reported negative effects. Almost all of the negative effects are minor. I am not sure what you are looking for . Everything should be here for your questions. I assume other provinces have similar data. The anti vexer seem to believe that the public health records are false and part of some global sinister conspiracy. That isn't my cup of tea.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> Alberta has been doing an excellent job of compiling data on the vaccinations in that province. If you go to the Alberta Health site you should be able to get the answers you need. The relevant facts are almost 80% of everyone is full vaccinated. 80% of all covid hospitalizations are the unvaccinated. 90% of the ICU patients are unvaccinated. Close to 7 million vaccinations and 1800 reported negative effects. Almost all of the negative effects are minor. I am not sure what you are looking for . Everything should be here for your questions. I assume other provinces have similar data. The anti vexer seem to believe that the public health records are false and part of some global sinister conspiracy. That isn't my cup of tea.


The very first step is to determine what 'working' means.
In terms of vaccinations there are at least two different metrics:

reduce severe cases/hospitalizations/death
reduce spread
They also vary with time from vaccination.

So it isn't a simple statement of 'they work or not'. The tendency to try to put every single thing into binary system is not good for constructive debate.
There is extremely good agreement among research results which show they work in the first metric.
There is really good agreement among research results which show they work in the second metric for a very short period of time and not very well


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Yup....you could demand that. A court may overturn the demand as being unreasonable........but that would be years down the road.
> 
> Who exactly do you think is going to come to save the workers facing unreasonable demands from an employer ?
> 
> Who do you call.........ghostbusters ?


Well the unions should be standing up for their members.

The idea of refusing overtime is a good first step, you can't arbitrarily fire thousands, then demand mandatory overtime.


----------



## Money172375

The National Advisory Committee on Immunization has expanded eligibility guidelines for booster shots of COVID-19 vaccines.
The committee now recommends mRNA boosters to people who received two doses of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine, adults over the age of 70, front-line health-care workers with a short interval between their first two doses, and people from First Nations, Inuit and Métis communities.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> The committee now recommends mRNA boosters to people who received two doses of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine, ...


 ... looks like most of the top politicians - Ford, Tory and Trudeau(?) are prime candidates for the boosters, if I'm not mistaken. For one, is Tory gonna to mix (not match) now?


----------



## Eder

From http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/COVID_sitrep/2021-10-21-Data-Summary.pdf

*Based on data over the last 4 weeks, compared with fully vaccinated individuals and after adjusting *_*for age differences, unvaccinated individuals are
• ≈ 9x more likely to become a case 
• ≈ 43x more likely to be hospitalized *_
*• ≈ 36x more likely to die *

I say grab a vaccine!
At any rate Covid is down at #7 as causing death just ahead of Alzheimer's and average age of 83..


----------



## Beaver101

Court lifts temporary injunction on Toronto hospital network vaccine mandate

Will be interesting to see where the unions end up with for their grevious members on this matter. A re-read here points in the direction (aka affirmation) that Ontario Human Rights Commission is not on their side either.

Anyone here knows who Ian Perry is other than a guess it's the plaintiffs' lawyer?

As for non-union members, they're out of luck. No job (in Ontario's hospitals) and then no EI.


----------



## Eder

Its a travesty people are losing their jobs over refusing a vaccine...anyone with a clue knows an anti gen test would keep everyone safe. This will have long term repercussions...hopefully the end of our current government at least.


----------



## zinfit

I figure by Dec 1 close to 90% of the Alberta population over 12 years will be fully vaccinated. Vaccine passports are working.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> I figure by Dec 1 close to 90% of the Alberta population over 12 years will be fully vaccinated. Vaccine passports are working.


Why not just send the brownshirts to peoples home and get it done with? You will get to 100%


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> Court lifts temporary injunction on Toronto hospital network vaccine mandate
> 
> Will be interesting to see where the unions end up with for their grevious members on this matter. A re-read here points in the direction (aka affirmation) that Ontario Human Rights Commission is not on their side either.
> 
> Anyone here knows who Ian Perry is other than a guess it's the plaintiffs' lawyer?
> 
> As for non-union members, they're out of luck. No job (in Ontario's hospitals) and then no EI.


 ...I wonder if workers in Russia get paid whilst mandated to be "off from work" whilst on the beachside?

Russia hits another virus death record as infections soar



> ... _To contain the spread of infection, *Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered a nonworking period from Oct. 30 to Nov. 7, when most state agencies and private businesses are to suspend operations. *He encouraged Russia’s worst-hit regions to start sooner, and *some ordered most residents off work earlier this week.*
> 
> Moscow introduced the measure beginning Thursday, shutting down kindergartens, schools, gyms, entertainment venues and most stores, and restricting restaurants to takeout or delivery. Food stores, pharmacies and companies operating key infrastructure remained open.
> 
> Access to museums, theaters, concert halls and other venues in Russia is limited to people holding digital codes on their phones to prove they have been vaccinated or recovered from COVID-19, a practice that will remain after Nov. 7. Unvaccinated people older than 60 have been ordered to stay home.
> 
> *The number of new daily cases in Russia rose by 39,849 on Friday, just below the all-time record reported the previous day. The government hopes that by keeping most people out of offices and public transportation, the nonworking period will help curb the spread of the virus, **but many Russians rushed to use the time off for a seaside Black Sea vacation or to take a trip to Egypt or Turkey.*
> 
> Deputy Prime Minister Tatyana Golikova, the head of the government coronavirus task force, voiced concern about a spike in beach vacations.
> 
> “We are particularly worried about our citizens booking tourist trips to other regions,” she said.
> Authorities have blamed soaring infections and deaths on Russia’s lagging pace of vaccinations. About 51 million Russians — *just over a third of the country’s nearly 146 million people — were fully vaccinated as of Friday.*
> 
> Russia was the first country in the world to authorize a coronavirus vaccine in August 2020 and proudly named the shot Sputnik V to showcase the country’s scientific edge. But the vaccination campaign has stalled amid widespread public skepticism blamed on conflicting signals from authorities._


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Money172375 said:


> BC gonna offer 3rd shot to everyone. Will likely set a precedent
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B.C. health officials announce third booster shot available following second vaccine | Watch News Videos Online
> 
> 
> Watch B.C. health officials announce third booster shot available following second vaccine Video Online, on GlobalNews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


This is bloody ridiculous, a bloody shot every six months.
In normal country that is not populated by sheep that would not work.


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## sags

Praises be and pass the vaccine.

If you don't want yours....can I have it ? 

I wouldn't mind a double booster, just to be on the safe side.


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## MK7GTI

Ukrainiandude said:


> This is bloody ridiculous, a bloody shots every six months.
> In normal country that is not populated by sheep that would not work.


Same story in the NWT. It was announced 2 days ago. Couple of my co workers who are under 40 have gotten them already. One of them is 23. They are some of the biggest sheep I know so it's not surprising.


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## Ukrainiandude

After the fifth dose you will become immortal, LMAOL 

*Some People May Soon Get a 4th Dose of Their COVID Vaccine—Here's Who the CDC Says Is Eligible*


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Interesting information 

*Antibody-dependent enhancement* (*ADE*), sometimes less precisely called *immune enhancement* or *disease enhancement*, is a phenomenon in which binding of a virus to suboptimal antibodies enhances its entry into host cells, followed by its replication.[1][2] The suboptimal antibodies can result from natural infection or from vaccination. ADE may cause enhanced respiratory disease and acute lung injury after respiratory virus infection (ERD) with symptoms of monocytic infiltration and an excess of eosinophils in respiratory tract.
ADE can occur during the development of a primary or secondary viral infection, as well as after vaccination with a subsequent virus challenge.[1][9][10] It has been observed mainly with positive-strand RNA viruses. Among them are Flavivirusessuch as Dengue virus,[11] Yellow fever virus, Zika virus,[12][13] Coronaviruses, including alpha- and betacoronaviruses,[14] Orthomyxoviruses such as influenza,[15] Retroviruses such as HIV,[16][17][18] and Orthopneumoviruses such as RSV.[19][20][21]








Antibody-dependent enhancement - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## sags

The CDC just released data that shows natural immunity from a previous infection is not sufficient and well below the immunity provided by vaccines.

The data blows up the natural immunity theories.


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## Mukhang pera

Beaver101 said:


> ... I didn't assume provided you actually read sag's link in his post #4898 of which you then go and claim it's an "opinion" piece by an actual practicing employment lawyer (in Ontario, not your province). Btw, Howard Levitt is pro-employer, "not" pro-employee in case you didn't know.
> ... you're the one assuming employers are "breaking the law" here. I hope by now you do realize most employers have lawyers too - in fact, the larger institution has an entire team of lawyers.


I have only today read the last few pages of this wearying thread, but I went back far enough to see the Howard Levitt writing which, in my view, is unassailable. I cannot see any Canadian court rewarding the anti-vax crowd. 

I should add that anyone not vaccinated who requires hospital care for Covid here in BC should be subject to the Health Care Costs Recovery Act. The Act should be amended to make that possible. These folks are costing the rest of us a bundle.

I know personally a woman living in a house with 3 others. She was the only one vaccinated. The other 3 were not vaccinated and got Covid. They were all under the same roof. It was learned that the one who brought it home picked it up at a funeral. She infected the other 2 non-vaccinated and they all required treatment.


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## Beaver101

^


> ... I know personally a woman living in a house with 3 others. She was the only one vaccinated. The other 3 were not vaccinated and got Covid. They were all under the same roof. It was learned that the one who brought it home picked it up at a funeral. She infected the other 2 non-vaccinated and they all required treatment.


 ... after surviving the infection, they'll argue now they got "natural immunity" and so no need for vaccination at all. I'm surprised no one sued the infector (if not related). But then I shouldn't be surprised at all given they're all willing to take such risks living under 1 roof in those shared conditions.

Today’s coronavirus news: There are 340 new cases of COVID-19 in Ontario; one estimate says nearly half of Connecticut residents have been infected with the virus  .... under this link, an estimate showed that nearly half of Connecticut has been infected. The place to visit - no thanks.

'This is insanity': teacher calls for crackdown after colleague gets COVID-19 ... and then you read into the above headline:



> ... _Manitoba’s school dashboard shows there were 29 cases in Hanover schools in the 14 days leading up to Oct. 26. There are currently 281 active cases in the Southern Health region at large.
> 
> A rural teacher, who spoke to the Free Press on the condition of anonymity, however, suggests those figures are actually much higher since many students don't seek testing when they experience symptoms._
> 
> 
> 
> _"I send kids home regularly with COVID symptoms. There were seven kids missing from my class (on a recent school day) ‐ that’s not normal, even during flu season. It’s running through town."– Teacher_
> 
> 
> 
> _At the same time, they said unmasked sports games, youth gatherings, and church events continue to take place.
> 
> The educator, who has only become more concerned after learning a colleague in the division has become severely ill after contracting the virus, indicated they are confused about why Manitoba Health has yet to "step in" and introduce more safety measures.
> 
> The Neufeld family has been calling for prayers in recent days as a father, who works as a music teacher at Green Valley School in Grunthal, is in an intensive care unit in Brandon after becoming infected with COVID-19.
> 
> "They intubated him last night," wrote Christina Neufeld, about her husband Vernon Neufeld’s condition in a public post on Facebook on Oct. 23. "We would so very much appreciate prayers for a quick and full recovery. _
> 
> ...
Click to expand...

 ... very disturbing. I don't think this handling will be any different in Ontario schools.... like they take it "(very) seriously". Right. With prayers.


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## Ukrainiandude

Is there a law in constitution that allows organizations (like university for e.g.) to implement mandatory vaccination for staff and anyone who visits the premises? I could not find it.


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## Ukrainiandude

Is this even legal?
Effective January 4, 2022, anyone accessing USask campuses and workplaces will need to *show proof* of receiving at least two doses of *WHO-approved COVID-19 vaccines*. Submitting rapid test results (or any other COVID test result) *will no longer be an option* for campus access as of January 4 for those who are not vaccinated or choose not to disclose their vaccination status unless an approved accommodation exists.


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## Mukhang pera

Beaver101 said:


> ^ ... after surviving the infection, they'll argue now they got "natural immunity" and so no need for vaccination at all. I'm surprised no one sued the infector (if not related). But then I shouldn't be surprised at all given they're all willing to take such risks living under 1 roof in those shared conditions.


A bit of fact I left out, since it should make no difference, is that this is happening in the Philippines.

The vaccinated woman in question (she had the one-shot Johnson & Johnson) is living with 2 aunts and an uncle. The aunts attended a funeral, where one or both got infected. I am not sure any of them should be faulted for living in the same house. In Canada, families share houses and there is always a risk that one family member will get infected and transmit to others in the same home. We cannot all live in separate houses.

The related parties in the case to which I refer are now under a 15-day quarantine. House arrest. 5 days left to serve.

The notion of a lawsuit against "the infector" does not seem to be of much value. What do you suggest? Trying to find out who brought the plague to the funeral and suing that person? What if they say they did not know they were infected? Are you aware of any successful lawsuits of the sort anywhere? Perhaps an attractive idea at first blush, but I see scant prospect of success and most cases (if not all). 

This forum has a thread about class actions. With such mundane subject-matter such as overpriced lawnmowers. How about a class action over Covid. Maybe the style of cause would be "The World v. China". Actually, class actions are usually started by someone agreement to be the representative plaintiff for the putative class. You could offer. It would then be styled as "Beaver101 v. China". Then there will be an application for certification under the Class Proceedings Act, or equivalent.


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## sags

Ukrainiandude said:


> Is this even legal?
> Effective January 4, 2022, anyone accessing USask campuses and workplaces will need to *show proof* of receiving at least two doses of *WHO-approved COVID-19 vaccines*. Submitting rapid test results (or any other COVID test result) *will no longer be an option* for campus access as of January 4 for those who are not vaccinated or choose not to disclose their vaccination status unless an approved accommodation exists.


I would imagine they have good lawyers advising them.


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> Is this even legal?
> Effective January 4, 2022, anyone accessing USask campuses and workplaces will need to *show proof* of receiving at least two doses of *WHO-approved COVID-19 vaccines*. Submitting rapid test results (or any other COVID test result) *will no longer be an option* for campus access as of January 4 for those who are not vaccinated or choose not to disclose their vaccination status unless an approved accommodation exists.


I don't think this has been tested in the courts yet, so I think it's really an open question. But some lawyers seem to think so:









Canadian colleges and universities can mandate COVID-19 vaccination without violating Charter rights


The case for campus vaccine mandates is compelling, and this conclusion is bolstered by recommendations from medical doctors.




theconversation.com












Vaccine mandates are likely to win over legal challenges, say law professors


Legal experts say the validity of the COVID-19 vaccine and the current government vaccine mandates are likely to prevail.




www.thestar.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> I don't think this has been tested in the courts yet, so I think it's really an open question. But some lawyers seem to think so:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canadian colleges and universities can mandate COVID-19 vaccination without violating Charter rights
> 
> 
> The case for campus vaccine mandates is compelling, and this conclusion is bolstered by recommendations from medical doctors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theconversation.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine mandates are likely to win over legal challenges, say law professors
> 
> 
> Legal experts say the validity of the COVID-19 vaccine and the current government vaccine mandates are likely to prevail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thestar.com


In a campus setting, regardless of whether students or staff are personally concerned about catching COVID-19, they may spread the disease to others, and the now-dominant Delta variant is highly contagious, placing individuals at risk of hospitalization and death.

if 95% of students and staff are vaccinated and vaccines are protecting against hospitalization and deaths, who exactly are those 5% are putting at risk?


----------



## Mukhang pera

Ukrainiandude said:


> Is there a law in constitution that allows organizations (like university for e.g.) to implement mandatory vaccination for staff and anyone who visits the premises? I could not find it.


What constitutional document did you review and not find it?


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## Ukrainiandude

Mukhang pera said:


> What constitutional document did you review and not find it?


The one that supposed to trump all other laws and bylaws.





__





THE CONSTITUTION ACTS, 1867 to 1982


Federal laws of canada




laws-lois.justice.gc.ca


----------



## Mukhang pera

Ukrainiandude said:


> The one that supposed to trump all other laws and bylaws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THE CONSTITUTION ACTS, 1867 to 1982
> 
> 
> Federal laws of canada
> 
> 
> 
> 
> laws-lois.justice.gc.ca


I am not sure that is contemplated by any constitutional documents, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. These primary enactments - Constitution Act, 1867 and the Constitution Act, 1982, while said to be the supreme law of Canada, were not intended to lay down an exhaustive list of what laws, bylaws, etc. can and cannot be adopted by the various levels of government - federal, provincial, municipal, etc. 

In the main, the constitution seeks to define the powers of the three branches of government - the executive, the legislative and the judiciary, without dictating what laws and types of laws can and cannot be passed. It sets out the areas in which the provinces and the federal government may legislate, such as criminal law matters being for the feds, property and civil rights within a province being left to the provinces, etc. In any event, it would not have been possible for the those drafting those documents to foresee the future and decide, for example, that no one shall pass a law requiring vaccination. In 1867, I doubt anyone was thinking much about the emergence of C-19 in 2020.

You asked:


Ukrainiandude said:


> Is there a law in constitution that allows organizations (like university for e.g.) to implement mandatory vaccination for staff and anyone who visits the premises?


It seems to me that legislation is seldom written setting out what kinds of activities are allowed. The only example that comes quickly to mind is in the realm municipal zoning bylaws, where one often sees things like "In the RS zone the following uses are permitted...". 

It seems to me further, that if there is to be any type of prohibition against the impugned activity, it would dwell in legislation such as provincial human rights statutes. In BC, I see no relief there. The closest provision I could come up with is this:
*Discrimination in accommodation, service and facility
8* (1)A person must not, without a bona fide and reasonable justification,
(a) deny to a person or class of persons any accommodation, service or facility customarily available to the public, or
(b) discriminate against a person or class of persons regarding any accommodation, service or facility customarily available to the public
because of the race, colour, ancestry, place of origin, religion, marital status, family status, physical or mental disability, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, or age of that person or class of persons.

The opening words of the above section are encouraging. One must not deny access service or facility customarily available to the public. But, as it turns out, one can deny access unless its on account of one of the prohibited grounds listed, starting with race, colour, etc. And that's what human rights legislation is all about. It's not to outlaw discrimination. All kinds of discrimination is lawful. It's only the "prohibited grounds" that run afoul of the law and, even then, the impugned conduct may be justified where there is a "bona fide and reasonable justification". 

While it would be drawing a long bow, perhaps one could argue that to deny entry to an anti-vaxxer is discrimination on the basis of "physical or mental disability" in those rare cases where someone has not been vaccinated for sound medical reasons. If the university denies access to such a person, they perhaps has the basis of a human rights complaint. For all the rest, they will have to suck it up, buttercup. I think any legal challenge will be doomed to fail, as it properly should.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Mukhang pera said:


> I am not sure that is contemplated by any constitutional documents, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.


Scott Livingstone, CEO of the Saskatchewan Health Authority, said on Tuesday asking somebody for proof of COVID-19 vaccination would violate the province's Health Information Protection Act.

"Even giving your health card number is personal health information. Banks are not allowed to ask for your health card number and nobody else is for a form of ID," said Livingstone. "It is personal information, and so is vaccination status."


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/vaccine-passport-premier-criticism-1.6087420



Does the university have a permission to ask vaccination proof from anyone on its premises?

The reason I am asking, I have heard that law students are preparing the law suit against the university 
I don’t know the pretext, but I would hate to miss on any potential gains from stupid government institutions.
we all know if terrorists are getting paid by the governments, why not the us average Joes.

*Omar Khadr: Canada pays ex-Gitmo detainee who killed US soldier millions*


----------



## Mukhang pera

Ukrainiandude said:


> Scott Livingstone, CEO of the Saskatchewan Health Authority, said on Tuesday asking somebody for proof of COVID-19 vaccination would violate the province's Health Information Protection Act.
> 
> "Even giving your health card number is personal health information. Banks are not allowed to ask for your health card number and nobody else is for a form of ID," said Livingstone. "It is personal information, and so is vaccination status."
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/vaccine-passport-premier-criticism-1.6087420
> 
> 
> 
> Does the university have a permission to ask vaccination proof from anyone on its premises?
> ...


I took a look at the Sask. Health Information Protection Act and it does not make clear that requiring proof of vaccination offends the Act. It significantly restricts those who collect health information from disclosing it, but does not say a whole lot about the positive rights of individuals.

Not a whole lot of sustenance for the CEO's words can be taken from the Act. He says "Even giving your health card number is personal health information...." So what? Answering whether you have the flu today is giving personal health information. The Act does not purport to restrict individuals from giving it out. But those who collect that information are under some constraint.

The health care number raises an interesting issue about the scope of the statute. The Act says, in part:

*Rights re production of health services number *
_11(1) An individual has the right to refuse to produce his or her health services number or any other prescribed identifying number to any person...._

If the Act intended to confer the right to refuse to divulge any health care information, it could have said so in as many words. It only allows one to refuse to disclose the health services number. That suggests that it's open season on all else.

It seems to be eminently reasonable that one should be asked about vaccine status. Are schools wrong to ask if a new student has been vaccinated against the usual childhood diseases, such as polio, measles, chicken pox, etc.? I would think the parents of most other students to expect those questions to be asked or answered. If one walks into a long-term care facility, full of immunity-compromised persons in care, should those in charge be shy about asking questions of visitors and denying entry to those unwilling to answer?

I attended a BC Law Courts Building recently. I was shown a sign at the door and asked by a security guard the questions on the sign, viz., do I have a fever, a cough, etc. Maybe I should have told him to get lost and he has no right to ask such probing and personal questions.

So, having dedicated 5 minutes of research to these vexing questions, my preliminary view, with all due respect to Mr. Scott Livingstone, Esq., CEO of the Saskatchewan Health Authority, is that he is wrong about the reach of the legislation he cites.


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## Ukrainiandude

Mukhang pera said:


> Are schools wrong to ask if a new student has been vaccinated against the usual childhood diseases, such as polio, measles, chicken pox, etc.?


*Is Immunization Mandatory in Canada?*
*Immunizations are not mandatory in Canada*; however, in Ontario, and New Brunswick, proof of immunization is required for children and adolescents to attend school. In these same provinces, exceptions to immunizations can be made only for medical (can require a note from a healthcare provider) or ideological reasons.





__





Is Immunization Mandatory in Canada? | immunizecanada







immunize.ca


----------



## Beaver101

Mukhang pera said:


> A bit of fact I left out, since it should make no difference, is that this is happening in the Philippines.
> 
> The vaccinated woman in question (she had the one-shot Johnson & Johnson) is living with 2 aunts and an uncle. The aunts attended a funeral, where one or both got infected. I am not sure any of them should be faulted for living in the same house. In Canada, families share houses and there is always a risk that one family member will get infected and transmit to others in the same home. We cannot all live in separate houses.
> 
> The related parties in the case to which I refer are now under a 15-day quarantine. House arrest. 5 days left to serve.


 ... that bit of fact do make a difference.

Recall first in my post, I said "if not related" meaning blood-relatives. I don't suppose you would want to sue the sister/brother of your father/mother. I was thinking along the side of "unrelated tenants" in a rental like a house. Or even a condo.

[Apparently, one of our forum member is/was having difficulty with their board charter with respect to use of their common areas (including a community center) without masking up (never mind the vaccination requirement) during a pandemic. I think their board is still struggling to come up with the "rules" (or their bylaws). Not sure where it is at currently though.]



> The notion of a lawsuit against "the infector" does not seem to be of much value. What do you suggest? Trying to find out who brought the plague to the funeral and suing that person? What if they say they did not know they were infected? Are you aware of any successful lawsuits of the sort anywhere? Perhaps an attractive idea at first blush, but I see scant prospect of success and most cases (if not all).


 ... if suing a "known with reckless behaviour" infector for (loss of life, not medical treatment which is covered by the provincial healthcare systems) is fruitless, what are the chances of getting that HealthCare Costs Recovery Act out in BC amended to subject the un-vaccinateds to bear the extra costs? The argument will then be why can't (eg) drunk drivers pay more/out of pockets or the drug addicts if they end up in the ICU? No difference.



> This forum has a thread about class actions. With such mundane subject-matter such as overpriced lawnmowers. How about a class action over Covid. Maybe the style of cause would be "The World v. China". Actually, class actions are usually started by someone agreement to be the representative plaintiff for the putative class. You could offer. It would then be styled as "Beaver101 v. China". Then there will be an application for certification under the Class Proceedings Act, or equivalent.


 ... the "Beaver101 v. China" is a very, very, very (aka next to impossible) tall order. 

I think that has been attempted already on the world stage, only replace the "Beaver101" with the "USA(the land of the free & braves)" via their attempt to find the origins of the virus.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Beaver101 said:


> ... that bit of fact do make a difference.
> ...
> ... if suing a "known with reckless behaviour" infector for (loss of life, not medical treatment which is covered by the provincial healthcare systems) is fruitless, what are the chances of getting that HealthCare Costs Recovery Act out in BC amended to subject the un-vaccinateds to bear the extra costs? The argument will then be why can't (eg) drunk drivers pay more/out of pockets or the drug addicts if they end up in the ICU? No difference.
> ...
> ... the "Beaver101 v. China" is a very, very, very (aka next to impossible) tall order.


Actually, the fact to which I was referring that should make no difference was the fact that the situation I described was occurring in the Philippines.

I was not really being serious about resort to the Health Care Costs Recovery Act. Chances there I see as even worse than a lawsuit by someone who has become infected and they claim it was the "defendant's" fault. At least in BC, "known with reckless behaviour" is not a recognized cause of action at law. We have "intentional torts", which include assault and battery and the like. Then, the second branch of tort law is negligence. It involves considerations of when does one owe a "duty of care" to others and what foreseeable consequences flow from a breach of duty and should the tortfeasor pay damages as a result. 

While one can imagine cases in which one might claim, in effect, an assault by an infected person, in most cases the action would have to sound in negligence think. The plaintiff would allege that the defendant knew they were C--19 positive, could spread the virus, and were reckless in having contact with others. If the plaintiff knew of and accepted the risk, there would be no cause of action. A very difficult problem I see in meeting the onus of proof is the defendant claiming not to have known they were themselves infected at the material time. 

Another nice issue in some cases will be that of "contributory negligence". That will go to reduce damages, if the defendant succeeds in showing that the plaintiff failed to take reasonable care for their own safety, say, for eg., by shopping at a crowded Costco in a C-19 world.

So, I am not saying the idea of a lawsuit is :"fruitless", it may be of little practical value. Lawsuits are notoriously expensive to prosecute and even leaving aside difficulties with proof, etc., many defendants will be persons of straw, with no ability to pay damages in any event. An even greater obstacle would be, I suppose, the courts' likely reluctance to become a clearinghouse for C-19-related lawsuits. Maybe we can establish courts or tribunals just to deal with Covid cases. The Covid Court of British Columbia, for example. Maybe I can be appointed as Mukhang pera, CJCC - Mukhang pera, Chief Justice of the Covid Court. Has a nice ring to it. Care to be Associate Chief Justice?

Offhand, the only precedent that comes to mind for the machinery of the law becoming involved with the spread of infection is a handful of HIV-related cases. Here is one example:

_R._ v._ Gauthier_ S.C., Devlin J., 2020 BCSC 146, Chilliwack 66844, February 5, 2020 (oral), 30pp.




__





2020 BCSC 146 R. v. Gauthier






www.bccourts.ca





He was convicted of one count of aggravated sexual assault and, in subsequent proceedings, sentenced to 4 years in Her Majesty's Guesthouse and a lifetime order under the Sex Offender Information Registration Act.

As to sentencing, see R. v. Gauthier, 2021 BCSC 1295




__





2021 BCSC 1295 R. v. Gauthier






www.bccourts.ca





Having been found guilty of a form of assault, Mr. Gauthier would certainly be exposed to a tort claim for damages, but I suspect one was not brought due to scant prospect of ever being able to collect on any judgment.



Beaver101 said:


> .. if suing a "known with reckless behaviour" infector for (loss of life, not medical treatment which is covered by the provincial healthcare systems) is fruitless...


If one was to bother to sue, one would want to seek, inter alia, non-pecuniary damages (pain and suffering), maybe past and future loss of earring capacity, loss of housekeeping capacity, future care costs, etc. You mention "loss of life", if the victim is deceased, the claim would then be under the Family Compensation Act (as known in BC).

But, let's think positive - not on one's C-19 test - but in terms of fertile new ground to be ploughed by an army of lawyers in the emerging field of Covid law!


----------



## Plugging Along

@Mukhang pera Just a side note, I always appreciate your detailed legal responses. I learn alot. Thank you! I didn't want to requote all of your posts. 

Interesting mention about the accommodations reference you made in BC. In AB, one of the larger management companies (they manage over 130 properties) has said it a requirement now to show proof of vaccination to see or rent any place they manage. Those already living there will be grandfathered, and not forced to show but any new potential tenants must show vaccination.

People are already talking law suits, and it's starting to become an issue with guests and sublets. For example air bnbs, do all guest needs to show. It will be very interesting to see what comes out of it.


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## Mukhang pera

Plugging Along said:


> @Mukhang pera Just a side note, I always appreciate your detailed legal responses. I learn alot. Thank you! I didn't want to requote all of your posts.


Thank you for that note of appreciation, PA. Legal issues are one of the few areas iii which I feel qualified to speak. On a "money forum", most here have better knowledge than I on a variety of topics. For just one of many examples, I don't know a lot about "yield curves" and what they should mean about how I go about my daily activities. I have never gone camping with a "bond tent", which is the topic of another current thread here. I like my trusty old canvas Woods tent. I believe bonds are usually on paper and here, on the west coast, a bond tent would soon spring a leak. 💦

So, I try to give my law posts some pith and substance, generally backing up with actual references to the legal authorities, rather than simply expecting anyone to take my word for the way it is.


----------



## bgc_fan

Update on vaccines in Canada. Novavax is submitting their vaccine for Health Canada approval.








Novavax submits COVID-19 vaccine for approval by Health Canada


Biotechnology company Novavax Inc. says it has submitted its COVID-19 vaccine for approval in Canada, opening the prospect of another product on the country's vaccine market that could win over a few more vaccine-hesitant residents.




www.ctvnews.ca





It's another option for those who don't want to go with mRNA, or adenoviral vaccines. At the moment, there are fewer side effects and about as effective as the mRNA. It may convince some of those who don't want mRNA-based vaccines on principle, or not. It's a more traditional technology.








Comparing the COVID-19 Vaccines: How Are They Different?


Keeping up with COVID-19 vaccines can be a daunting task. To help people keep up, Yale Medicine mapped out a comparison of the five most prominent ones.




www.yalemedicine.org












Protein-based Covid-19 vaccines could overshadow rivals


Although slower to develop, protein-based vaccines are well understood with a strong record of safety and effectiveness




www.chemistryworld.com


----------



## MrMatt

Mukhang pera said:


> *Discrimination in accommodation, service and facility
> 8* (1)A person must not, without a bona fide and reasonable justification,
> (a) deny to a person or class of persons any accommodation, service or facility customarily available to the public, or
> (b) discriminate against a person or class of persons regarding any accommodation, service or facility customarily available to the public
> because of the race, colour, ancestry, place of origin, *religion*, marital status, family status, physical or mental disability, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, or age of that person or class of persons.


The religious exemption is the most reasonable grounds.

The second argument is basically the abortion argument. I think this is a particularly strong argument.
If your right to control your body extends to the point where you can kill a person, then clearly you should be able to refuse a potentially lethal medical procedure.

I don't see how you can say that mandatory vaccination because it might somehow maybe protect someone else is a reasonable infringement.
But not allowing you to kill a person with an abortion ban is somehow not a reasonable infringement.

Personally I think you should have medical autonomy over your own body. Our government has a horrible history with government mandated medical procedures, heck we're still sterilizing "undesirables" so they don't breed.








Indigenous women still forced, coerced into sterilization: Senate report | Globalnews.ca


Women interviewed for the report were coercively sterilized between 2005 and 2010. The committee says it is aware of a case of forced sterilization as recent as 2019.




globalnews.ca





Just to be clear I accept the reasons for restrictions on someone with an active communicable disease, ie TB, COVDI19, etc. But forced vaccination provides a statistically insignificant benefit wrt to COVID19 and has politicized the whole vaccination movement. I expect that we're going to see more people resisting conventional vaccines, and we'll see an uptick in diseases we thought we obliterated.


Finally I think the antivaxxers are wrong.
You should get vaccinated, and I still think they were wrong to pull AZ, since it never posed an unacceptable risk.
I also think abortion is wrong, and people shouldn't get one.

But in neither case do I think the government should be able to force (or stop) if people want.

Remember I've been saying for weeks that we should roll out 3rd dose/boosters ASAP, so that everyone who wants one gets it before Christmas.


----------



## Mukhang pera

MrMatt said:


> I don't see how you can say that mandatory vaccination because it might somehow maybe protect someone else is a reasonable infringement.
> But not allowing you to kill a person with an abortion ban is somehow not a reasonable infringement.
> 
> Personally I think you should have medical autonomy over your own body.


Did say anything about mandatory vaccination? I ask, because you open with quoting my post, so I am guessing you are directing your response in that regard to me.

I am not a proponent of mandatory vaccination. The only way for that to work in many cases would be to physically restrain people and inject them. I would not favour hog-tying anyone and sticking them. Then repeating the exercise from time to time. But, I don't really have difficulty with telling people they can refuse the vaccine, but they will have to accept that their lives will be more circumscribed. Just as what started this thread. Want to come onto our campus? Get vaccinated. Don't like vaccine? Fine. Stay away from here. I do not think the law should forbid that, and force the university to admit to its premises those it perceives as posing a health risk.

The abortion debate is of no interest to me here. Or elsewhere, really. I see it as a medical autonomy issue, as you describe and, moreover, fundamentally a women's issue. I do not see any man as empowered to tell any woman she must carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. It always seems that a rowdy bunch of men turn up and are the most shrill at any anti-abortion demonstration. They should stay home. Not their business.


----------



## MrMatt

Mukhang pera said:


> Did say anything about mandatory vaccination? I ask, because you open with quoting my post, so I am guessing you are directing your response in that regard to me.


I do not think that discrimination based on vaccination status is consistent with human rights.



> Want to come onto our campus? Get vaccinated. Don't like vaccine? Fine. Stay away from here.


Replace vaccination with religion, or race, or gender.



> I do not think the law should forbid that, and force the university to admit to its premises those it perceives as posing a health risk.


COVID negative people pose no health risk.
COVID positive people do pose a heath risk.

Vaccination status is a poor proxy for COVID status.
Plus if you're concerned about COVID risk, get vaccinated and you're pretty well protected.



> The abortion debate is of no interest to me here. Or elsewhere, really. I see it as a medical autonomy issue,


As is vaccination.



> as you describe and, moreover, fundamentally a women's issue.


I disagree that it's a womens issue, I think the principle of medical autonomy is far wider, and of interest to all people.
Also by todays definitions men and women (and other self identified genders) can both get pregnant anyway, so it's really an open issue.



> I do not see any man as empowered to tell any woman she must carry an unwanted pregnancy to term.


I do not think any person should tell any person that they should be forced to undergo a medical procedure, and they should not be coerced into an unwanted medical procedure.

The reason I see abortion as such a clear analog is that you're literally killing a person to preserve the medical autonomy of them.
In Texas they've conveniently protected the right to abortion, but enacted a massive coercion campaign to stop people from exercising their right to medical autonomy.
Just like In Canada, people are being banned form normal activities, and losing their jobs, and being denied government benefits for exercising their medical autonomy.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> I do not think that discrimination based on vaccination status is consistent with human rights.
> 
> 
> Replace vaccination with religion, or race, or gender.
> 
> 
> *COVID negative people pose no health risk.
> COVID positive people do pose a heath risk.
> 
> Vaccination status is a poor proxy for COVID status.
> Plus if you're concerned about COVID risk, get vaccinated and you're pretty well protected.*
> 
> 
> As is vaccination.
> 
> 
> I disagree that it's a womens issue, I think the principle of medical autonomy is far wider, and of interest to all people.
> Also by todays definitions men and women (and other self identified genders) can both get pregnant anyway, so it's really an open issue.
> 
> 
> I do not think any person should tell any person that they should be forced to undergo a medical procedure, and they should not be coerced into an unwanted medical procedure.
> 
> The reason I see abortion as such a clear analog is that you're literally killing a person to preserve the medical autonomy of them.
> In Texas they've conveniently protected the right to abortion, but enacted a massive coercion campaign to stop people from exercising their right to medical autonomy.
> Just like In Canada, people are being banned form normal activities, and losing their jobs, and being denied government benefits for exercising their medical autonomy.


You are dealing with facts. They are talking quasi-religion. 
Those discussions never lead to anything.
You won't explain to hard-core religious person that some teachings are illogical.
Same here - you won't explain to covidians who love to discriminate and feel superior, that there is no logic in the discrimination and no basis for their moral superiority


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> You are dealing with facts. They are talking quasi-religion.
> Those discussions never lead to anything.


I don't even understand how they can argue for medical autonomy to the point of taking a human life as being "acceptable", while also arguing against medical autonomy in a case that is unlikely to result in the death of a third party.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> I don't even understand how they can argue for medical autonomy to the point of taking a human life as being "acceptable", while also arguing against medical autonomy in a case that is unlikely to result in the death of a third party.


Again, religion. Some praise 'god', some worship hate and division.
Science never wins against religion.

And I don't even want to make it into a debate between discussing two different medical procedures. There is no need to do that.
Facts are simply. People with COVID are dangerous to those around them. People without COVID are not dangerous to those around them.
There is very easy, very cheap, and very accurate way to determine whether someone has COVID or not. Yet they want to remove those willing to prove they are not sick from society 😂 😂 
They simply worship division and hate, and are willing to deny science to defend their religion


----------



## MrMatt

My position on vaccines at this point is simple.
For most people it the benefits to the vaccine are high the risk is low, it is in your own self interest to get the vaccine.

As a public health measure.
If you get COVID, you're a risk.
If you're double vaccinated, you have a reducing in your likelihood of spread, which degrades rapidly.
Arguably at 5+ months since a second dose ones vaccination status has little impact on their risk of spreading.

If the risk is low enough to block people from getting a third dose (as I want), then the argument for mandatory vaccinations for people for that same reason is a non issue, the experts have already said that the risks are "low".


The idea of forcing life threatening medical procedures "for your own good' is abhorrent to me. It's no wonder that groups who have been victims of such government intrusions are more likely to refuse to vaccinate.


----------



## sags

White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki announced she has covid.

She is fully vaccinated, and was in contact with someone who had covid.

She was infected on Wednesday and had tests on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday that were all negative.

She tested positive on Sunday.

It shows that testing is an unreliable indicator of infection status.


----------



## zinfit

You don't need to get vaccinated no one is suggesting that. Just understand that their are consequences for not getting vaccinated. I know a large law office . The staff has made it clear that they don't want to work with unvaccinated employees. That is a reality. Do you lay off 90% to satisfy the 10% ?


----------



## damian13ster

a) how do you know she got infected on wednesday
b) you do not spread the very instance you get infected - you start spreading 2-4 days later.









I’ve been exposed to COVID-19; how soon will I be contagious?


If you grew up watching Saturday morning cartoons, getting exposed to COVID-19 may evoke the image of a bedraggled coyote lighting the fuse of a ginormous rocket on the edge of a cliff. How long until it goes kaboom and you start infecting everyone around you?




medical.mit.edu


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> You don't need to get vaccinated no one is suggesting that. Just understand that their are consequences for not getting vaccinated. I know a large law office . The staff has made it clear that they don't want to work with unvaccinated employees. That is a reality. Do you lay off 90% to satisfy the 10% ?


You don't get to discriminate someone just because you or coworkers want you.
What if 55% of workforce is racist, sexist? Does it mean they get to exclude color of the skin or gender they don't like, because staff made it clear?
There has to be a basis on it.
Or would you rather not lay off 55% of racists and sexists, and instead accept their demands?

Only people with COVID spread, and people without COVID don't. No matter the vaccination status.
Therefore you can't discriminate against people without COVID.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> My position on vaccines at this point is simple.
> For most people it the benefits to the vaccine are high the risk is low, it is in your own self interest to get the vaccine.
> 
> As a public health measure.
> If you get COVID, you're a risk.
> If you're double vaccinated, you have a reducing in your likelihood of spread, which degrades rapidly.
> Arguably at 5+ months since a second dose ones vaccination status has little impact on their risk of spreading.
> 
> If the risk is low enough to block people from getting a third dose (as I want), then the argument for mandatory vaccinations for people for that same reason is a non issue, the experts have already said that the risks are "low".
> 
> 
> The idea of forcing life threatening medical procedures "for your own good' is abhorrent to me. It's no wonder that groups who have been victims of such government intrusions are more likely to refuse to vaccinate.


I have the Modern vaccine and Moderna is saying it is still 93% protective after 6 months. That is is a lot better then the zero % with the unvaccinated. The Pfizer vaccine appears to diminish at a faster rate but still provides a level of protection that is not statistic irrelevant.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> I have the Modern vaccine and Moderna is saying it is still 93% protective after 6 months. That is is a lot better then the zero % with the unvaccinated. The Pfizer vaccine appears to diminish at a faster rate but still provides a level of protection that is not statistic irrelevant.


Protection against hospitalization. Not infection or spread. Two different things. One needs to pay attention to the wording when reading research papers. Hospitalization, illness, infection - those are all different things
And not many are arguing just to let people completely roam.
However, tests are 93% effective constantly, in first month, or 6month.
So discriminating against people without COVID is just that - discrimination.

This is for Pfizer, Moderna doesn't have such study yet so it is possible that numbers are different, although unlikely considering it is same technology. Maybe we should fire all people with Pfizer?









Waning of BNT162b2 Vaccine Protection against SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Qatar | NEJM


Original Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — Waning of BNT162b2 Vaccine Protection against SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Qatar



www.nejm.org


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki announced she has covid.
> 
> She is fully vaccinated, and was in contact with someone who had covid.
> 
> She was infected on Wednesday and had tests on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday that were all negative.
> 
> She tested positive on Sunday.
> 
> It shows that testing is an unreliable indicator of infection status.


And vaccination status is an unreliable indicator of infection status.

So exactly why are we trying to force unwanted medical procedures on people?


----------



## sags

Because if everyone is vaccinated we can get rid of the virus and return to normal.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> You don't need to get vaccinated no one is suggesting that. Just understand that their are consequences for not getting vaccinated. I know a large law office . The staff has made it clear that they don't want to work with unvaccinated employees. That is a reality. Do you lay off 90% to satisfy the 10% ?


You don't need to follow my religion, just understand that there are consequences for following the wrong religion.
I have a large company, the staff has made it clear that they don't want to work with the wrong religion. 
That is the reality, do you lay off 90% to satisfy the 10%?

No, you don't lay off anyone and you protect the human rights of all involved, if they don't like that you stand for human rights, they can leave.


The whole point of human rights and discrimination protections was to protect people from unfair discrimination from the majority.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Because if everyone is vaccinated we can get rid of the virus and return to normal.


That's the lie they've been saying from the beginning.

We know that the current vaccines aren't good enough to stop COVID19. They're good at stopping death, but not at stopping spread.

In case you didn't know White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki, who claims to be vaccinated, had and possibly spread COVID19 for several days before determining she had COVID.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Waning of BNT162b2 Vaccine Protection against SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Qatar | NEJM
> 
> 
> Original Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — Waning of BNT162b2 Vaccine Protection against SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Qatar
> 
> 
> 
> www.nejm.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 22315


With many Canadians 5+ months from vaccination, we have a problem.
Time to get those third doses out, we have them, lets use them.


----------



## sags

Doubtful that people spread vaccinated to vaccinated.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Doubtful that people spread vaccinated to vaccinated.


Because you follow your religion and ignore science.
Science clearly shows that vaccinated spread to vaccinated


----------



## Eder

MrMatt said:


> They're good at stopping death, but not at stopping spread.


Actually real world stats from BC in the last 4 weeks show that vax is very good at stopping Delta.

*Based on data over the last 4 weeks, compared with fully vaccinated individuals and after adjusting *_*for age differences, unvaccinated individuals are
• ≈ 9x more likely to become a case 
• ≈ 43x more likely to be hospitalized *_
*• ≈ 36x more likely to die * 


http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/COVID_sitrep/2021-10-21-Data-Summary.pdf


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Doubtful that people spread vaccinated to vaccinated.


We've known this is the case for months. I'm starting to think you're a troll with no intention on having an honest discussion. Like this is admittedly a difficult issue, but you're ignoring established facts critical to the debate.


*THE NEW DATA SAYS THAT A FULLY VACCINATED PERSON WHO EXPERIENCES A BREAKTHROUGH INFECTION CAN SPREAD THE VIRUS JUST AS MUCH AS AN UNVACCINATED PERSON.









New Data on COVID-19 Transmission by Vaccinated Individuals | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health


While new data show that vaccinated people can carry high viral loads of SARS-CoV-2, vaccines still prevent the worst outcomes from COVID-19.




publichealth.jhu.edu




*


----------



## damian13ster

Eder said:


> Actually real world stats from BC in the last 4 weeks show that vax is very good at stopping Delta.
> 
> *Based on data over the last 4 weeks, compared with fully vaccinated individuals and after adjusting *_*for age differences, unvaccinated individuals are
> • ≈ 9x more likely to become a case
> • ≈ 43x more likely to be hospitalized *_
> *• ≈ 36x more likely to die *
> 
> 
> http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/COVID_sitrep/2021-10-21-Data-Summary.pdf


There is a reason the paper isn't peer reviewed research paper.
There are different rules for vaccinated vs unvaccinated. 
If you choose never to test vaccinated, you can show that vaccines are 100% effective. 
That's not the point though is it? That's why you look at data that standardizes the research.

For example some arabic countries test every single citizen weekly. That's how you get unbiased data on asymptomatic spread and infection


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> Actually real world stats from BC in the last 4 weeks show that vax is very good at stopping Delta.
> 
> *Based on data over the last 4 weeks, compared with fully vaccinated individuals and after adjusting *_*for age differences, unvaccinated individuals are
> • ≈ 9x more likely to become a case
> • ≈ 43x more likely to be hospitalized *_
> *• ≈ 36x more likely to die *
> 
> 
> http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/COVID_sitrep/2021-10-21-Data-Summary.pdf


Again you're mixing getting COVID and getting Sick from COVID.
If you get COVID, your vaccination status doesn't keep you from spreading.

Therefore we should restrict those who have COVID.


----------



## sags

Did you read your own linked article ?

Virus infection and virus disease are two different scenarios.

That study doesn't even address vaccinated to vaccinated spread of the disease, and since breakthrough infections are uncommon, it is highly unlikely transmission of symptomatic disease will result.

_"There’s a difference between breakthrough infections and breakthrough disease.

Breakthrough infections occur when a fully vaccinated person tests positive for the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Breakthrough disease occurs when a fully vaccinated person experiences symptoms of COVID-19 disease.

Vaccines remain highly effective at preventing severe disease, *breakthrough infections and disease among vaccinated individuals remain uncommon, and most of the new COVID-19 cases in the U.S. are among unvaccinated people."*_


----------



## Eder

I agree but the vaccines are very effective...something that gets lost too easily.
And lol at imagining a statistic report from BC Health requires a peer review!!!


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Did you read your own linked article ?


Yes, and I assumed most, that's why I posted the relevant quote.



> Virus infection and virus disease are two different scenarios.


Yes, and we're concerned with infection, because when you're infected, you can spread.
If you're infected with COVID, you can spread.
I don't care if you get sick (disease), I care if you're spreading.

If you're COVID positive, you are a spreader, and you're putting people at risk.

The current data shows that it doesn't matter if you're vaccinated or not, COVID19 positive people are the ones spreading COVID, and they're the risk.


----------



## damian13ster

Vaccinated to vaccinated transmission (both vaccinated with Pfizer 5 months ago) is 40% less likely to happen than unvaccinated to unvaccinated transmission.
Tested to unvaccinated transmission is 93% less likely to happen


----------



## Mukhang pera

MrMatt said:


> I do not think that discrimination based on vaccination status is consistent with human rights.
> ...
> Replace vaccination with religion, or race, or gender.


If you are right that discrimination based on vaccination status is inconsistent with human rights, then persuade the legislatures to incorporate that as a prohibited ground of discrimination under provincial human rights laws. I am familiar with the BC Human Rights Code and I do not see it forbidding what U. of Sask. is doing.

If you think that current human rights legislation prohibits discrimination based on vaccination status, it should be easy to bring a test case before a provincial tribunal and prove the correctness of your view. Of course, such a test case would not stop there. Almost certainly there would be a judicial review and an appeal to the provincial appeal court and then, possibly, an appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada. By the time all of that gets decided, maybe Covid will be gone, or we'll all be dead, or who knows?



MrMatt said:


> The reason I see abortion as such a clear analog is that you're literally killing a person to preserve the medical autonomy of them.


I always try to avoid the abortion issue, because it is like almost any political issue, no one can ever be persuaded from their position, no matter how cogent, compelling and logical the case presented against their view. Canadian courts have held that a fetus is not a "person" at law. I accept that. You don't. You will never change your mind and I'll never change mine. Nothing to debate.


----------



## damian13ster

Canadian Constitution is worth less than toilet paper.
For that reason the question doesn't end at whether something is legal. The question is whether something is right, moral, and logical.
Residential Schools were legal in Canada. Does it mean it was the right thing to do and didn't break anyone's rights?

Alienating tested people is neither right nor logical. They present much less of a danger to their surroundings than vaccinated people do.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> You don't need to follow my religion, just understand that there are consequences for following the wrong religion.
> I have a large company, the staff has made it clear that they don't want to work with the wrong religion.
> That is the reality, do you lay off 90% to satisfy the 10%?
> 
> No, you don't lay off anyone and you protect the human rights of all involved, if they don't like that you stand for human rights, they can leave.
> 
> 
> The whole point of human rights and discrimination protections was to protect people from unfair discrimination from the majority.


my religion says you must stop at red lights . This has zero to do with religion it has something to do about the public interest and the public health. If you don't want to stop at lights you don't drive.


----------



## damian13ster

What in the world are you talking about?
To use this ridiculous analogy, you are allowing people who stop on red lights ~20% of time to drive, and excluding drivers who stop on red lights 93% of the time from the road.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Yes, and I assumed most, that's why I posted the relevant quote.
> 
> 
> Yes, and we're concerned with infection, because when you're infected, you can spread.
> If you're infected with COVID, you can spread.
> I don't care if you get sick (disease), I care if you're spreading.
> 
> If you're COVID positive, you are a spreader, and you're putting people at risk.
> 
> The current data shows that it doesn't matter if you're vaccinated or not, COVID19 positive people are the ones spreading COVID, and they're the risk.


Yes and the proof as to who is getting covid is highly disproportionately the unvaccinated. That is a fact no matter how you spin your religious argument. That is how the average person sees it and they have every right to discriminate against the unvaccinated.


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> What in the world are you talking about?
> To use this ridiculous analogy, you are allowing people who stop on red lights ~20% of time to drive, and excluding drivers who stop on red lights 93% of the time from the road.


your example is ridiculous . People who stop at red lights don't get excluded from driving . Nothing more nothing less. In the healthcare environment the people who are not excluded are the people who are vaccinated. If I was a patient in a hospital I don't want anything to do with an unvaccinated healthcare employee.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> your example is ridiculous . People who stop at red lights don't get excluded from driving . Nothing more nothing less. In the healthcare environment the people who are not excluded are the people who are vaccinated. If I was a patient in a hospital I don't want anything to do with an unvaccinated healthcare employee.


Because you follow a religion and not facts.

There is 80% chance you get infected from a person that was vaccinated >5 months ago.
There is 7% chance you get infected from a person that was tested in last 72h.

If you prefer to still take significantly higher chance of infection because of your blind faith then that's precisely what it is - religion.

And your reply to Matt is also not true. 
If there were no tests there would be no virus detected. Does it mean it doesn't exist? No.
That's why in order to find out how effective vaccines are at preventing infection you need controlled studies.
And those controlled studies are out - after 5 months, mRNA vaccines are 20% effective at preventing infection.

You can ignore the science all you want. You can choose your religion and deny facts all you want.
Just don't control other people's lives through your blind faith that is resistant to facts.


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> Because you follow a religion and not facts.
> 
> There is 80% chance you get infected from a person that was vaccinated >5 months ago.
> There is 7% chance you get infected from a person that was tested in last 72h.
> 
> If you prefer to still take significantly higher chance of infection because of your blind faith then that's precisely what it is - religion.
> 
> And your reply to Matt is also not true.
> If there were no tests there would be no virus detected. Does it mean it doesn't exist? No.
> That's why in order to find out how effective vaccines are at preventing infection you need controlled studies.
> And those controlled studies are out - after 5 months, mRNA vaccines are 20% effective at preventing infection.
> 
> You can ignore the science all you want. You can choose your religion and deny facts all you want.
> Just don't control other people's lives through your blind faith that is resistant to facts.


wrong .With Moderna it is 90% unless they are lying. If you are right about the duration of the virus why are 75 % of the hospital patients unvaccinated when over 80% of the people over 12 years of age are fully vaccinated? It is ridiculous to be living a world of constant testing. Then clear reality is the fact it the unvaccinated who have plugged up the hospitals in Alberta and SK. I recently tried to get a rapid test in Calgary from Shoppers and Walmart and I encountered situations were they were booked up to the into December. The explanation I got was people needed tests every 72 hours to keep their jobs. Could you image the backlog if they required this for every employee. This just isn't workable. It may be a hidden agenda but another reality is the fact that mandates have driven up the number of vaccinations and that is a good thing. BC is getting close to a 90% level. We assume all the unvaccinated are extreme anti-vaxxers . I figure most are your typical procrastinator and we need a strong reason to make a decision.


----------



## damian13ster

Oh FFS. I am talking about INFECTION. Jesus, what is it. 20th time it has been mentioned?
INFECTION is DIFFERENT than HOSPITALIZATION.
Hospitalization doesn't spread. Infection does.

If people are willing to test and make you safer then why not let them? You are significantly safer around them than around vaccinated people? Then why not allow them to make you safer? It is very workable. My company does it. Tests almost 200 people every single day. Testing should be allowed and tested person should have no restrictions.
They are safer to be around than vaccinated person
There is absolutely no logic in it.


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> @Mukhang pera Just a side note, I always appreciate your detailed legal responses. I learn alot. Thank you! I didn't want to requote all of your posts.
> 
> Interesting mention about the accommodations reference you made in BC. In AB, one of the larger management companies (they manage over 130 properties) has said it a requirement now to show proof of vaccination to see or rent any place they manage. Those already living there will be grandfathered, and not forced to show but any new potential tenants must show vaccination.
> 
> People are already talking law suits, and it's starting to become an issue with guests and sublets. For example air bnbs, do all guest needs to show. It will be very interesting to see what comes out of it.


 ... just saw this article from the Globe and Mail. Looks like the vaccination-mandate "rule" on condos is still up in the air (for Ontarians). Hopefully, when the "rules" are "established", the pandemic will be over.

In condo land, COVID-19 vaccine rules are hazy



> SHANE DINGMANREAL ESTATE REPORTER TORONTO PUBLISHED OCTOBER 27, 2021
> 
> _When it comes to public-health rules aimed at preventing the spread of COVID-19, condominium corporations in Ontario are being left to decide on their own if there’s any difference between a gym in a strip mall and one inside an apartment complex.
> 
> That’s because the consensus in the legal community that advises the 12,000 condominium corporations in Ontario is that the rules for proof of vaccination to access indoor spaces don’t apply to the province’s approximately 1.8 million condo residents – unless condo boards decide they want them to.
> 
> “Right now we have the situation where anti-vaxxers aren’t able to use public gyms, but if they live in a condo with a gym they can use that,” said Audrey Loeb, partner with Shibley Righton LLP.
> 
> Since September, Ontario has required proof of vaccination for members of the public to enter a variety of indoor venues – everything from movie theatres and arenas to restaurants and sex clubs – and since Oct. 22 it has made available an app that can check the validity of those certificates. But the rules (Ontario Regulation 364/20) do not specifically address the amenity spaces accessible to people living in condominium buildings, which can include everything from restaurants, co-working spaces, meeting rooms to gyms and pools.
> 
> On October 15, the Ministry of Health stated that “facilities in apartment buildings, condo buildings, and retirement homes that are not open or accessible to the public are likely not public settings or facilities that would be subject to proof of vaccination requirements.” However, it said they are free to pass their own rules.
> 
> The Globe and Mail asked the ministry to clarify what “likely” means in this context and was told that the vaccine passport rules do not apply to condos – with caveats. “The ‘likely’ notes that there may be activities taking place inside common areas of the condo building (e.g. a catered party where the bar and restaurant provisions would apply),” said Alexandra Hilkene, who is the press secretary for Deputy Premier and Minister of Health Christine Elliott. That suggests that, depending on the activities inside those amenity spaces, the choice is less optional that it seems.
> 
> So far, it’s not clear how many condo boards have voluntarily adopted the rules. The experts The Globe spoke to had anecdotal evidence that suggests larger buildings with more staffing capacity seem quicker to adopt the rules, as do condos populated by more middle- and advanced-aged residents. And more than one large condominium-management company, whose staff would be tasked at enforcing these rules, declined to comment on whether any of their clients were creating new policies.
> 
> “It is troubling that [Premier Doug] Ford’s vaccine certificate system has some loopholes,” said Jessica Bell, NDP MPP for University Rosedale and an opposition critic on the housing file. “You need a passport to go out for dinner, but your bartender, server and the chef do not. Excluding condo gyms would be another one of those troubling loopholes that opens the door to outbreaks.
> “People who did the right thing and got their shot deserve to be able to go to their building’s gym knowing that they’re safe there,” Ms. Bell said. “The Ford government should provide clear guidance based on public health and not leave it up to thousands of individual condo boards to debate their rules. "
> 
> For those eligible to receive a vaccination (those 12 and up) 83 per cent are fully vaccinated in Ontario. That leaves millions in the province unprotected either because they are too young or they are unable or unwilling to take the shot. That creates a potential danger to condo residents if their building takes the approach that pools and gyms can be used by anyone regardless of vaccination status.
> 
> Nevertheless, many condo law specialists – along with the Condominium Authority of Ontario, the provincial governing body – are saying passing the policies is optional for condo boards.
> 
> “We’re not telling our clients you have to do it [mandate proof of vaccination],” said Josh Milgrom of Lash Condo Law. “If we felt the legislation did require policies we would say so. The result is each condo board needs to decide for its own community. You have some passing policies and some that aren’t. … When something isn’t mandated you’re left with a situation where there’s not going to be consistency.”
> 
> There may be those who object to being barred from amenities they pay fees to maintain in a building they co-own, but most in the industry don’t doubt the condos have the ability to pass their own vaccine passport rules even though that has not yet been tested in court.
> 
> “They [proof of vaccination policies] are not only permissible for the board to adopt, they may be duty bound to do it,” said Rod Escayola, a partner in Gowling WLG (Canada) LLP, referring to two legal rulings on mandatory mask rules from earlier in the pandemic – one of which he argued – that have lain the groundwork to defend vaccine passport rules.
> 
> According to him, Section 117 requirements under the Condominium Act state a condo corporation has a statutory duty to “prevent dangerous conditions/activities to exist,” and to ensure a property is “reasonably safe” (Section 26).
> 
> What’s clear is that boards across the province are at least having the conversation, even if they don’t end up adopting any screening protocols.
> 
> “I think everybody’s grappling with it,” said Warren Kleiner, a Shibley Righton partner and chair of the legislative committee for the Toronto chapter of the Canadian Condominium Institute. “I have not gotten many clients asking, ‘Does this apply?’ More often it’s, ‘Can we do this, and how?’ ”_


----------



## sags

The Ontario government should mandate restrictions to apply to public areas in condo buildings


----------



## sags

There are some countries with very low vaccination rates, and that propels the danger of a new variant mutating to defeat the vaccines.

Vaccines are the only path to a return to as normal as can be. The more restrictive it is for the un-vaxxed..........the better.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Yes and the proof as to who is getting covid is highly disproportionately the unvaccinated. That is a fact no matter how you spin your religious argument. That is how the average person sees it and they have every right to discriminate against the unvaccinated.


And women are more likely to need time off for maternity leave, so we have every right to discriminate against women.

My "religious argument" is because religion is a prohibited grounds of discrimination. If you're okay discriminating by religion, that's fine, but those aren't the laws in Canada.


----------



## damian13ster

And it is also factually incorrect. Vaccine provides very limited protection against infection. There are peer-reviewed studies showing that. Infections don't hit the unvaccinated much different than vaccinated. Hospitalizations do. There is a difference between the two, which you repeatedly fail to comprehend. There are dictionaries out there to help out with word definitions


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Yes and the proof as to who is getting covid is highly disproportionately the unvaccinated. That is a fact no matter how you spin your religious argument. That is how the average person sees it and they have every right to discriminate against the unvaccinated.


I'd like to see that data. I don't think they have much asymptomatic testing data of the general population. To support this claim.

I've seen data that COVID19 vaccines are very effective at preventing hospitalization and death.

There is some data that they do reduce catch and spread for several months, but more data is coming out (like the previously linked studies) that the protection against spread declines quite rapidly, particularly against Delta.

If the goal is to safe lives, get vaccinated. But the people dying are basically the unvaccinated, and I don't really care, they made their choice, deal with the consequences.

As a public health measure, we _think_ unvaccinated are spreading it, but we lack data.
We know that people with older vaccinations (5+ months) are also likely spreading it, so they should get their third/booster short.

As long as the government blocks 3rd/booster shots from those that want them ( like me) their argument that everyone needs to get vaccinated falls flat.

They're being quite two faced, I want to do everything I can to stop spread, and get my third shot, but they won't let me, despite data clearly showing I am likely to spread if I get COVID19. If public health and stopping the spread is the #1 goal, they should have third shots out now, but they don't, therefore stopping the spread isn't the #1 goal.


----------



## sags

Best to pay heed to the advice of the experts, who are unanimous in promoting vaccination and restricting the ability of the un-vaxxed to spread the disease.

The concerns over the un-vaxxed being incubators for mutations are very real. A future doomsday virus is possible and would be catastrophic.

Do you want to play around until the next virus mutation arrives from some un-vaxxed country ?


----------



## sags

A prominent actress who is an anti-vaxxer, anti-Fauci, science denier Trump supporter tweeted she has covid.

She said the virus "jumped" to her lungs, and she called 911 and went to the hospital with the paramedics.

She is on oxygen, and taking drugs and blood thinners in the ICU.

Funny how she denied science and doctors but suddenly rushed in to take up an ICU bed and accept all the treatment the doctors give her.

Social media is not impressed, as some say about her......._I have tested negative for sympathy._

People are fed up with these idiots and are no longer "being nice" about it. They want their lives back and these fools are delaying it for everyone else.









Pro-Trump actor Kristy Swanson hospitalized with COVID-19


Kristy Swanson, star of the 1992 movie “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” and a vocal supporter of former President Trump, says she’s been hospitalized after testing positive for COVID-19…




thehill.com


----------



## Beaver101

^ Poor Kristy, she must have deep-pockets for all that treatment. I wonder if the Dump is going to call her up and offer sympathy.


----------



## damian13ster

You are terrible human beings


----------



## sags

These are the people you spend so much time and effort defending.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/tracy-allard-covid-protest-1.6234290


----------



## Money172375

sags said:


> The Ontario government should mandate restrictions to apply to public areas in condo buildings


Tough to do I would think. As a condo owner, do you not “own” a portion of the common areas?


----------



## damian13ster

So? Just because I disagree with someone or believe they are acting inappropriately doesn't mean I will celebrate, laugh, or wish them sickness, death, hunger, or any other misfortunate.
It is called empathy and being a decent human. You should try it at some point. Hate isn't the only way


----------



## sags

How about empathy for anyone who listened to the anti-vaxxers and died because of it ?

Sorry........I consider people like Trump evil and I don't have any sympathy for evil people.


----------



## damian13ster

Having empathy for both groups is not mutually exclusive. If you weren't driven by hate you would understand it.
Of course not. What do you suggest we do with people you consider evil then?


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> How about empathy for anyone who listened to the anti-vaxxers and died because of it ?
> 
> Sorry........I consider people like Trump evil and I don't have any sympathy for evil people.


or tell that to the people in Alberta having surgeries cancelled because the anti-vaxxers were plugging up healthcare system and causing more restrictions and lockdowns.. It's a bit hard to find much sympathy. In terms of empathy no one has deprived them from getting healthcare that they didn't believe in.


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Poor Kristy, she must have deep-pockets for all that treatment. I wonder if the Dump is going to call her up and offer sympathy.


The Dump has taken the vaccines and sees himself responsible for their development.


----------



## moderator2

damian13ster said:


> You are terrible human beings


Who is this directed at?


----------



## damian13ster

moderator2 said:


> Who is this directed at?


People laughing at other people getting sick. I believe it was 2 members of the board.
It does seem that empathy and humanity is largely dead nowadays


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> These are the people you spend so much time and effort defending.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/tracy-allard-covid-protest-1.6234290


Who's defending them? I'm pretty sure everyone here is opposed to violence and threats of violence.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> or tell that to the people in Alberta having surgeries cancelled because the anti-vaxxers were plugging up healthcare system and causing more restrictions and lockdowns.. It's a bit hard to find much sympathy. In terms of empathy no one has deprived them from getting healthcare that they didn't believe in.


What about all the surgeries being cancelled because they fired thousands of health care workers?

I'm sorry but I have empathy even for those who make bad decisions and bring it on themselves.
I'm sure that most of the people who advocate for bad harmful policies aren't doing it because they're bad people, they're just happen to be wrong.

But I agree, it's hard to have sympathy for them.
Like the "defund the police" in the US, which results in skyrocketing crime and record murder rates, I really feel for them, but part of me is thinking "isn't that what you asked for? What did you think would happen?"


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> People laughing at other people getting sick. I believe it was 2 members of the board.
> It does seem that empathy and humanity is largely dead nowadays


 ... your hypocrisy here is un-believeable. And your continuous attempt with the Hitler strategy accusing posters of being hateful, discriminatory, censorship, etc. blah blah blah is back-firing.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... your hypocrisy here is un-believeable. And your continuous attempt with the Hitler strategy accusing posters of being hateful, discriminatory, censorship, etc. blah blah blah is back-firing.


Hypocrisy?
There is none. Message is extremely simple and coherent. Pro-vaccine, pro-choice, pro-empathy, anti-assholes wishing and cheering on people getting sick. 
No incoherence whatsoever


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Hypocrisy?
> There is none. Message is extremely simple and coherent. Pro-vaccine, pro-choice, pro-empathy, *anti-assholes wishing* and cheering on people getting sick.
> No incoherence whatsoever


 ... re-read all your resposes - start with the ones directed to sags and ask yourself who is actually spewing hate, accusing others of that?

Re "cheering on people getting sick" - that's your assumption/opposing view. Define "cheering". 

I don't disagree with your statement of lack of empathy as Kristy doesn't deserve any based on her adamant views/beliefs. How can you convince someone to make changes when they're already of set-mind to being a disbeliever of a pandemic, becoming anti-vaxx, never mind her other political views? And do you "honestly" believe Donald Trump cares about her? 

Added: If you want my honesty, I have more empathy (actually sympathy) for those nameless people who were dumped in mass graves over at Hart's Islands and those helpless seniors (particularly their living familes) in LTCS than Ms Kristy. 

And how do you "wish" someone to be an axxhole in the first place?


----------



## Spudd

MrMatt said:


> As long as the government blocks 3rd/booster shots from those that want them ( like me) their argument that everyone needs to get vaccinated falls flat.


Has it been 6 months since your 2nd shot yet? If I recall correctly I think you're in your 40s so you probably had your 2nd shot mid-summer. I don't think it's yet been 6 months, which is the current recommendation.

I know I had mine at the beginning of July so I'll be due for my booster (assuming they roll it out to the younger crowd) in January.


----------



## Money172375

Ontario is announcing their booster plans today at 1pm EST.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I'm guessing Ontario will follow BC's schedule - "general" population getting booster by May 2022. 

First thing first, got my flu shot (regular dose) for the season. Booster can wait.


----------



## Mukhang pera




----------



## Beaver101

^ The TSA one is really ironic. I bet anti-vaxxers would gladly stay in that x-ray machine until all their body parts glow clearly on the monitor for the customs agents.


----------



## Mukhang pera




----------



## Mukhang pera

You should not encourage me, or I might keep this up


----------



## andrewf

Mukhang pera said:


> View attachment 22320


Vaccines facilitated herd immunity. Same with measles. Not everyone gets vaccinated for measles, which is fine as long as enough people are. Enough antivaxxers in close proximity and measles can explode as it is incredibly infectious.


----------



## damian13ster

Mukhang pera said:


> View attachment 22320


I could compare Tesla to a fridge based on the fact that they both run on electricity.
The comparison would be as relevant as yours.

Smallpox vaccine caused sterilizing immunity. Polio vaccine doesn't but its effectiveness against infection is rated 99-100%.
Both last years to a lifetime.

COVID vaccine gives you around 77% protection at its peak and down to 20% after 5 months.
The comparison is simply stupid


----------



## Spudd

Ontario expands booster shots:








Ontario expands eligibility for third doses of COVID-19 vaccine


More Ontarians will be able to book an appointment to receive a COVID-19 vaccine booster shot as soon as this weekend as the province expands its eligibility for third doses.




toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## MrMatt

Spudd said:


> Has it been 6 months since your 2nd shot yet? If I recall correctly I think you're in your 40s so you probably had your 2nd shot mid-summer. I don't think it's yet been 6 months, which is the current recommendation.
> 
> I know I had mine at the beginning of July so I'll be due for my booster (assuming they roll it out to the younger crowd) in January.


Based on the data posted earlier in this thread we should be revaccinated at 5 months, 6 months is too long.

So even if I got my shot today, it's almost too late, and don't forget there are millions of us who need our third shot.


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> Based on the data posted earlier in this thread we should be revaccinated at 5 months, 6 months is too long.
> 
> So even if I got my shot today, it's almost too late, and don't forget there are millions of us who need our third shot.


While the data is important…..it’s not entirely reliable. The early data said doses should be spaced out 21 days…….it’s pretty much agreed now that a longer interval is better. 
5 months, 6 months?…. We’re splitting hairs at this point.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> While the data is important…..it’s not entirely reliable. The early data said doses should be spaced out 21 days…….it’s pretty much agreed now that a longer interval is better.
> 5 months, 6 months?…. We’re splitting hairs at this point.


The early data said 21 days was good, not that it was optimal.

Plus it doesn't matter, 5 months, 6 months, even if they turned on 3rd doses today, we're not going to get them till 7 or 8 months, plus we also don't know how it will interfere with flu shots.


----------



## Money172375

They said gen pop will Be eligible in Jan.

bookings for 70+ begin Saturday.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Money172375 said:


> Ontario is announcing their booster plans today at 1pm EST.


Great news for big pharma along with kinds inoculation. 
multimillion end year bonuses.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Mukhang pera said:


> View attachment 22319


With TSA you don’t have to go through x ray machine if you don’t want to, there is alternative manual inspection. 
Is there any alternative for mandatory vaccines in Canada’s “free world“.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ^ The TSA one is really ironic. I bet anti-vaxxers would gladly stay in that x-ray machine until all their body parts glow clearly on the monitor for the customs agents.


You do know that you can opt out from x-ray and got the regular inspection?
The USA is still a free country.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Leading medical journal The BMJ has published an incendiary report exposing faked data, blind trial failures, poorly trained vaccinators, and a slow follow-up on adverse reactions in the phase-three trial of Pfizer’s Covid jab.
Central to the exposé is Brook Jackson, who, for two weeks, served as regional director at Ventavia Research Group, the company contracted to assist with the pivotal trial. She provided The BMJ with dozens of internal company documents, photos, audio recordings, and emails supporting her concerns.
Jackson reveals that Ventavia staff who conducted quality-control checks were overwhelmed by the volume of problems they were identifying. She repeatedly informed her superiors of poor laboratory management, and patient safety and data integrity issues.
*Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial*








Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial


Revelations of poor practices at a contract research company helping to carry out Pfizer’s pivotal covid-19 vaccine trial raise questions about data integrity and regulatory oversight. Paul D Thacker reports In autumn 2020 Pfizer’s chairman and chief executive, Albert Bourla, released an open...




www.bmj.com


----------



## MrMatt

Wow. That's quite an issue.


----------



## MK7GTI

Mukhang pera said:


> View attachment 22319


3 of 4 of those examples are laws or required by your employer. Wearing a mask in a store isn't a law. It's a policy. What's worse is that these giant corporations are asking the person making minimum wage to police this policy.


----------



## Plugging Along

MK7GTI said:


> 3 of 4 of those examples are laws or required by your employer. Wearing a mask in a store isn't a law. It's a policy. What's worse is that these giant corporations are asking the person making minimum wage to police this policy.


In my city, it is a by law, and provincially it is a mandate (therefore law).

A side note, intentionally coughing on someone used to be just down right rude, now it could be assault. v
Found guilty of Assault for Coughing


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> You do know that you can opt out from x-ray and got the regular inspection?
> The USA is still a free country.


 ... right and yet anti-vaxxers have no issue with being on x-ray machines at all. And then the alternative of a pat-down, that would considered molesting, if not an assault plus invasion of privacy. No win with these so-called "freedom-fighters" for thyself.

I can add more - real life situations but not going into a long winded post.


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> In my city, it is a by law, and provincially it is a mandate (therefore law).
> 
> A side note, intentionally coughing on someone used to be just down right rude, now it could be assault. v
> Found guilty of Assault for Coughing


 ... not sure what it is in Toronto currently (the coughing) so need to check up. Masking is a mandate on public transits, hospitals, and stores for sure. 

"Spitting" is considered a chargeable assault for sure.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Let's see what fire this one draws, although it's not anti anti-vax. I see some humour in it, and therein lies its value, but we have a rather humourless lot here on CMF most of the time (come to reflect on it, 'twas ever thus). I suppose, here in pandemic mode, we must redouble our efforts to remain serious at all times. So I dare say there will be some who see evil in it.

I have already earned a "stupid" label from Master Demian. That stings. I am probably in the ranks he calls "terrible human beings". Perhaps, we the stupid, can be forgiven some of our frailties because our stupidity inhibits rational thinking . Or does our overwhelming stupidity reduce us to subhuman?


----------



## sags

Ironic caption but entirely logical.

Smoking weed won't kill you while getting covid from a family member might.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Ironic caption but entirely logical.
> 
> Smoking weed won't kill you while getting covid from a family member might.


Except smoking weed can kill you. Which isn't surprising, since smoke is carcinogenic.









Can You Get Lung Cancer from Smoking Weed?


While many people think there are few risks from smoking weed, it may be linked to lung cancer and lung disease. Anytime you inhale smoke, there's a risk.




www.healthline.com






https://cancer.ca/en/cancer-information/reduce-your-risk/live-smoke-free/cannabis-and-cancer-are-they-connected


----------



## MK7GTI

Plugging Along said:


> In my city, it is a by law, and provincially it is a mandate (therefore law).
> 
> A side note, intentionally coughing on someone used to be just down right rude, now it could be assault. v
> Found guilty of Assault for Coughing


Funny that everyone who liked your post I have on ignore.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Your perogative but I think you got your priorities off. 

First, it's not "liking" the post, it's agreeing with the post. And that post states the "law(s)" which you can choose not to like plus ignore the people who agree and recognizes.


----------



## Beaver101

COVID-19 vaccine mandate for big companies in U.S. to take effect Jan. 4


> _DAVID KOENIG THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
> 
> Tens of millions of Americans who work at companies with 100 or more employees will need to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 by Jan. 4 or get tested for the virus weekly under government rules issued Thursday.
> 
> The new requirements, which were first previewed by President Joe Biden in September, will apply to about 84 million workers at medium and large businesses, although it is not clear how many of those employees are unvaccinated.
> 
> *The Occupational Safety and Health Administration regulations will force the companies to require that unvaccinated workers test negative for COVID-19 at least once a week and wear a mask while in the workplace.*
> 
> OSHA left open the possibility of expanding the requirement to smaller businesses. It asked for public comment on whether employers with fewer than 100 employees could handle vaccination or testing programs.
> 
> *Tougher rules will apply to another 17 million people who work in nursing homes, hospitals and other facilities that receive money from Medicare and Medicaid. Those workers will not have an option for testing – they will need to be vaccinated.*
> 
> Workers will be able to ask for exemptions on medical or religious grounds.
> Biden framed the issue as a simple choice between getting more people vaccinated or prolonging the pandemic.
> 
> “While I would have much preferred that requirements not become necessary, too many people remain unvaccinated for us to get out of this pandemic for good,” he said Thursday in a statement.
> 
> Biden said his encouragement for businesses to impose mandates and his own previous requirements for the military and federal contractors have helped reduce the number of unvaccinated Americans over 12 from 100 million in late July to about 60 million now.
> 
> Those measures, he said, have not led to mass firings or worker shortages, adding that vaccines have been required before to fight other diseases.
> 
> OSHA said companies that fail to comply with the regulations could face penalties of nearly $14,000 per violation.
> 
> It was unclear how OSHA planned to enforce the rules: Even counting allied regulators at the state level, the agency has only 1,850 inspectors to oversee 130 million workers at 8 million workplaces. A senior administration official said OSHA will target companies if it gets complaints.
> 
> The release of the rules followed weeks of regulatory review and meetings with business groups, labour unions and others. The regulations form the cornerstone of Biden’s most aggressive effort yet to combat the spread of COVID-19, which has killed more than 740,000 people in the U.S.
> 
> OSHA drafted the rules under emergency authority meant to protect workers from an imminent health hazard. The agency estimated that the vaccine mandate will save more than 6,500 worker lives and prevent more than 250,000 hospitalizations over the next six months.
> 
> Senior administration officials said the rules pre-empt conflicting state laws or orders, including those that ban employers from requiring vaccinations, testing or the wearing of face masks.
> 
> The administration will face an immediate challenge from Republican state officials who are eager to fight Biden in court and in Congress. Senate Republicans immediately launched a petition to force a vote to overturn the vaccine mandate, but with Democrats controlling the chamber, the effort is nearly certain to fail.
> 
> More than two dozen Republicans serving as state attorneys general have indicated they plan to sue, arguing that only Congress can enact such sweeping requirements under emergency authority.
> Last week, 19 states sued to stop Biden’s narrower mandate that employees of federal contractors be vaccinated. That requirement was scheduled to take effect Dec. 8, but the administration said Thursday it will be delayed until Jan. 4 to match the requirements on other large employers and health care providers.
> 
> The rules will require workers to receive either two doses of the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines or one dose of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine by Jan. 4 or be tested weekly. Employees who test positive must be removed from the workplace.
> 
> The requirements will not apply to people who work at home or outdoors.
> 
> Companies won’t be required to provide or pay for the tests, but they must give paid time off for employees to get vaccines and sick leave to recover from side effects that prevent them from working. The requirements for masks and paid time off for shots will take effect Dec. 5.
> 
> The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services issued a separate rule requiring vaccination for workers in 76,000 health facilities and home health care providers that get funding from the government health programs. A senior administration official said that several large private health care organizations imposed their own mandates and achieved high vaccination rates – 96 per cent or higher – without widespread resignations.
> 
> For weeks, Biden has encouraged businesses not to wait for the OSHA rule to take effect. He has touted businesses that have already announced their own vaccine mandates and urged other companies to follow their lead.
> 
> Administration officials say those efforts are paying off, with about 70 per cent of the nation’s adults now fully vaccinated.
> 
> Walmart, the nation’s largest private employer, said in late July it was requiring all workers at its headquarters in Bentonville, Arkansas, as well as its managers who travel within the U.S., to be vaccinated against COVID-19 by Oct. 4. But the company had stopped short of requiring shots for its front line workers.
> 
> United Airlines required U.S. employees to get vaccinated or face termination. Only a very small number of its 67,000 workers refused to do so.
> 
> In August, Tyson Foods told its 120,000 U.S. workers that they must be vaccinated by Nov. 1. A week before that deadline, the company said 96 per cent of its work force was fully vaccinated.
> However, some companies have expressed fea r that some vaccine-hesitant workers might quit, leaving their workforces even thinner in what is already a tight labour market.
> 
> Several large business groups complained about the timing of the mandate. Retail groups worried that the requirement could disrupt their operations during the critical Christmas shopping period. Retailers and others also said it could worsen supply chain disruptions.
> 
> The National Retail Federation suggested that the new rules are not needed because the rolling average number of new daily cases in the U.S. has fallen by more than half since September.
> “Nevertheless, the Biden administration has chosen to declare an `emergency’ and impose burdensome new requirements on retailers during the crucial holiday shopping season,” said David French, a senior vice president for the trade group.
> 
> The number of new COVID-19 infections in the U.S. is still falling from a summer surge caused by the highly contagious delta variant, but the rate of decline has slowed in recent weeks. The 7-day moving average is down 6 per cent from two weeks ago, at more than 76,000 new cases and 1,200 deaths per day.
> 
> The earlier mandate on federal contractors led to demonstrations by opponents, including workers at a NASA rocket engine test site in Mississippi. Some said they are immune because they contracted COVID-19. Others said vaccines violated their religious beliefs and constitutional rights.
> “No one should be forced to take a medical treatment just to keep their job,” said Nyla Trumbach, an engineer at the site. “There’s years and years of experience and skill out here, and I just want anyone who’s watching to see what we stand to lose here if these people don’t keep their jobs.”_


 .. will be very interesting to see if Canadian industries don't follow suit.


----------



## zinfit

Ukrainiandude said:


> Leading medical journal The BMJ has published an incendiary report exposing faked data, blind trial failures, poorly trained vaccinators, and a slow follow-up on adverse reactions in the phase-three trial of Pfizer’s Covid jab.
> Central to the exposé is Brook Jackson, who, for two weeks, served as regional director at Ventavia Research Group, the company contracted to assist with the pivotal trial. She provided The BMJ with dozens of internal company documents, photos, audio recordings, and emails supporting her concerns.
> Jackson reveals that Ventavia staff who conducted quality-control checks were overwhelmed by the volume of problems they were identifying. She repeatedly informed her superiors of poor laboratory management, and patient safety and data integrity issues.
> *Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial
> 
> 
> Revelations of poor practices at a contract research company helping to carry out Pfizer’s pivotal covid-19 vaccine trial raise questions about data integrity and regulatory oversight. Paul D Thacker reports In autumn 2020 Pfizer’s chairman and chief executive, Albert Bourla, released an open...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bmj.com


Anti-vaxxer misinformation? can't believe that the FDA would miss that. They suspend J#J vaccines for much less. As another point short sellers like to do this stuff to make a short term profit.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

zinfit said:


> FDA


Some FDA employees are on big pharma unofficial payrolls for a small favour.
Capitalism is based on the exchange of favours.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Employees at Saskatchewan Polytechnic have been suspended without pay for failing to disclose their COVID-19 vaccination status under the school's proof-of-vaccination policy, according to a mass email obtained by CBC News.

The letter, sent to over 300 employees of the technical school on Monday, was signed by 17 union members who said they are "being discriminated against, coerced and intimidated by management and left hung out to dry by their unions."

The group said requiring employees to share their vaccination status is "heinous when it is required in order to keep your job" and a violation of people's medical privacy.

"Whether you think someone should be vaccinated or not should not even play a role in this issue," the letter says.

We the undersigned would like to bring to your attention the utter lack of support that has come from the SPFA and SGEU in regards to fellow union workers being suspended without pay for failure to disclose their private medical information in the form of vaccination status. You may or may not know that it is against the law to require someone to disclose medical information, it is even more heinous when it is required in order to keep your job. Never has there been a more personal attack on the right of what goes into one's body. This by itself should want you to want your union to support the workers that are being discriminated against because they wish not to disclose their status and or not put an experimental gene therapy into their bodies. Whether you think someone should be vaccinated or not should not even play a role in this issue. The issue is that our unions are not defending their members against an illegal action that is not even part of the collective agreement, when in the past they have had no issue defending members that have stolen time or property from the school or those who have chosen to drink or do drugs on the job. Today they choose to not defend those who do not want to disclose their vaccination status, who knows what they won’t defend you against in the future. We know the vaccine is a very divisive issue at this time and that the majority of those that replied to the SPFA union survey were in favour of having everyone on campus double vaccinated. We do however believe that these choices have been influenced by the very biased reporting that has taken place in the main stream media. We believe that if there was more balanced reporting of the so-called facts that the decision might not have been so one sided. If the vaccine was anywhere near as safe and effective as it is purported to be we would not need to be having this discussion. The reality is that many of the most highly vaccinated countries in the world (80% or more double vaccinated), like Gibraltar, Portugal, Iceland and Singapore are now having some very high case rates despite their very high levels of vaccination. The vaccines only protect you from getting sever disease. They don’t stop you from getting it and spreading it. See the stats from various sources below.


----------



## 307169

@damian13ster Go take a long walk, this is just a forum.


----------



## zinfit

May-be game changing news today.? Pfizer says it has developed a pill which is 90% effective in keeping covid positive people out of the hospital. If true and accurate this is great news. If could get FDA approval by US thanksgiving. Would be of great benefit in reducing the unvaccinated hospital clogging.


----------



## sags

Fantastic news.


----------



## sags

Most unions support vaccinations because it is good for their members........all of their members.

It is also good for the businesses who employ their members.

The vaccinated are protected from the non-vaccinated and the non-vaccinated are protected from themselves.

Larger unions will provide psychological support to the un-vaccinated to help them understand the irrationality of their fears.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Most unions support vaccinations because it is good for their members........all of their members.
> 
> It is also good for the businesses who employ their members.
> 
> The vaccinated are protected from the non-vaccinated and the non-vaccinated are protected from themselves.
> 
> Larger unions will provide psychological support to the un-vaccinated to help them understand the irrationality of their fears.


Most union support violating human rights, because they interfere with their power.


----------



## Money172375

Booked my dad for his booster. For anyone in Ontario, the gap needed between #2 and #3 is actually 168 days (24 weeks), not 6 months as widely published.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

There are 191 patients are in hospital related to COVID-19, including 47 in intensive care. Of those patients, 129, or 67.5 per cent, are not fully vaccinated.

But look, how good was Pfizer‘s marketing and advertisement , 96% protection.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Money172375 said:


> Booked my dad for his booster. For anyone in Ontario, the gap needed between #2 and #3 is actually 168 days (24 weeks), not 6 months as widely published.


Every four months getting a booster. Unreal.


----------



## sags

The alternative is getting covid........which doesn't sound like a fun experience.


----------



## Eder

Ukrainiandude said:


> There are 191 patients are in hospital related to COVID-19, including 47 in intensive care. Of those patients, 129, or 67.5 per cent, are not fully vaccinated.
> 
> But look, how good was Pfizer‘s marketing and advertisement , 96% protection.


Your math is not optimal. I'll let others elaborate.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Booked my dad for his booster. For anyone in Ontario, the gap needed between #2 and #3 is actually 168 days (24 weeks), not 6 months as widely published.


 ... supply and demand plus location as dictated by the Ontario government and governed by the Fed.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> There are 191 patients are in hospital related to COVID-19, including 47 in intensive care. Of those patients, 129, or 67.5 per cent, are not fully vaccinated.
> 
> But look, how good was Pfizer‘s marketing and advertisement , 96% protection.


Those numbers aren't comparable. If the 20% of the population that is unvaccinated represents 67% of the people in hospital, that means that they are 0.67/0.2 / (0.33/0.8) = 8.1 times more likely to be hospitalized. And that is not counting adjusting for age, as younger people are less likely to be vaccinated but were also at lower risk of being hospitalized all else equal. So, the reduction is risk of hospitalization is on the order of 90%.


----------



## cheech10

andrewf said:


> Those numbers aren't comparable. If the 20% of the population that is unvaccinated represents 67% of the people in hospital, that means that they are 0.67/0.2 / (0.33/0.8) = 8.1 times more likely to be hospitalized. And that is not counting adjusting for age, as younger people are less likely to be vaccinated but were also at lower risk of being hospitalized all else equal. So, the reduction is risk of hospitalization is on the order of 90%.


The Ontario Science Table even does the population adjustment for you. 6 times more cases, 15 times more hospitalizations, and 30 times more ICU admissions for the unvaccinated compared to the fully vaccinated Ontario Dashboard - Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table the first 3 graphs are population adjusted


----------



## Money172375

This is the most convincing chart and data that I’ve seen. Lots of chatter how there might be 400 unvaccinated cases today in Ontario vs 300 vaccinated or some iteration of that. Ie. where 40% of cases are amongst the vaxxed. Let’s keep in mind that approx 10 million people are vaxxed in Ontario so the “case rate” is the important number. We need to get the media off of the absolute case reporting.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Why unvaccinated people are still admitted to the hospitals? People have rights to die, let them die.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Everyone is trying to make a living as they can. Don’t be judgmental.

We've heard stories of people stealing stacks of vaccine cards and filling them out fraudulently and selling them to people," said Holinaty, who was serving as a delegate from Saskatoon during Friday's virtual assembly.

Holinaty also said there are reports of healthcare workers who are certified to administer private COVID-19 tests offering to sell fraudulent results.

If you're stealing cards or printing them off the internet, extremely disappointing because they're missing the whole point to this." 

In a memo sent to pharmacists last month, the Saskatchewan College of Pharmacy Professionals warned its members to be on the lookout for people getting vaccinated using another person's health card,presumably to confer proof of vaccination on someone who has not yet received their doses.









Sask. doctor says there have been reports of people stealing, selling COVID-19 vaccine cards


During the Saskatchewan Medical Association's fall assembly, a Saskatoon-based doctor shared some "troubling" examples of COVID-19 vaccination fraud she's learned of.




saskatoon.ctvnews.ca


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Let’s keep in mind that approx 10 million people are vaxxed in Ontario so the “case rate” is the important number.


Look at that margin, in the case of hospitalization. We're talking 13x as many non-vaccinated people ending up in hospital.

BC makes similar stats available periodically. This one has both population and age adjustment.

Look at the massive differences in these rates. For hospitalizations,
(28.2 + 6.95) = 35.15 hospitalizations per population among partial and unvaccinated
1.4 hospitalizations per population fully vaccinated

That margin is a whopping 25X. This is a mind-blowing margin. Not twice as likely, not thrice as likely... try 25 times as likely to be hospitalized.


----------



## Beaver101

This can be from anywhere in the world, only sad part is from a "world class", supposedly "(highly) educated" country. 

One real life "evidence" too many. Do we need to say more?

He nearly died from Covid after choosing not to get vaccinated. Later, he returned to apologize to the medical staff



> *Gina Harkins, (c) 2021, The Washington Post
> Mon., November 8, 2021*
> 
> _Richard Soliz, left, spent nearly a month at Seattle's Harborview Medical Center after testing positive for covid-19 in August. Soliz recently returned to the hospital, where he apologized to staff for not being vaccinated before his infection. (CNN)
> 
> Richard Soliz developed multiple blood clots on his lungs after catching the coronavirus this summer, and the staff at the Seattle hospital where he was being treated told him they were concerned one might move to his heart or brain.
> 
> The 54-year-old was on a heart-rate monitor, oxygen tank and eventually a ventilator. After being admitted to the hospital in late August, he spent 28 days at Harborview Medical Center, including two stints in the intensive care unit. His life, Soliz told The Washington Post, was "literally hanging on a thread."
> 
> Once he was well enough to leave in September, Soliz said he couldn't stop thinking about the staff.
> "My goodness, they saved my life," Soliz said. "In hindsight, I felt bad. *And I knew in my heart, in my mind and my consciousness that it all could've been avoided."*
> 
> Soliz returned to Harborview Medical Center late last month with a message for his doctor and others who'd treated him during his stay: He was sorry.
> 
> *"I deeply regret not making the decision to get vaccinated," he told one of his doctors.
> 
> Soliz, an artist, had opted against getting a coronavirus vaccine when they became widely available to anyone over the age of 16 earlier this year. *At least 223 million people in the United States have received at least one vaccine dose, according to The Post's tracker. Health experts stress that the vaccines are not only safe, but also protect people from severe illness during the pandemic that has killed more than 5 million globally.
> 
> Still, Soliz said he was confused by conflicting information.* He'd see one thing in the news, he said, only to have it negated by something he saw on social media or heard in the grocery store checkout line.*
> 
> "You couldn't go anywhere without somebody having something to say about it," Soliz said.
> 
> *Vaccine skepticism has been fueled by misinformation shared online, where social media companies have struggled to spot and remove anti-vaccine propaganda. **Fox News viewers have also gotten mixed messages about the vaccine*s. Soliz recalled hearing several now-debunked theories about the shots, including that they contained microchips - a claim The Post previously reported "would be physically impossible as they wouldn't fit through a needle."
> 
> So he put off getting immunized. When Soliz started feeling sick in August, he initially brushed it off as a flu bug. Then, the headache started.
> 
> "I can't even explain to you the intensity of that headache," he recalled. "I've never experienced a headache like that before ever in my life."
> 
> A fever followed and then shortness of breath, "and I realized, 'Hey, this is not the flu. It's covid,' " he said. He was admitted to Harborview Medical Center on Aug. 23.
> 
> While there, Soliz said he focused on beating the virus. But once he did, he said his mind returned to the health-care workers who cared for him and countless others. Opting against getting the vaccine, he said, "put fuel on the fire unnecessarily."
> 
> "I didn't do it deliberately - that was the bad part; that was the part that really disturbed me quite a bit," he told The Post. "I did not know the proper thing to do."
> 
> Fighting covid was like "a roller coaster," Soliz said, but the hospital staff treated him with compassion and kindness at every stage.
> 
> "You can't take people like that for granted," he told The Post.
> 
> James Town, a doctor at Harborview Medical Center, told CNN that spirits have been low among some hospital staff members. Covid cases spread "like wildfire" in Washington state this summer when the highly contagious delta variant was prevalent, KING 5 reported. Soliz's apology and gratitude for the care he received "was the kind of message that our staff needed to hear," Town told CNN.
> 
> *Soliz, who is now fully vaccinated, was left with scarring on his lungs from his time with covid, which causes him to become winded easily. He also still has trouble sleeping. He's urging those who are skeptical about the vaccine, as he was, to speak directly to their doctors.*
> 
> *"Don't be misled," he said.*_


 ...

Bottomline: He's lucky to have survived the RR game but not so lucky to live the rest of his life with the long hauls of Covid.


----------



## Plugging Along

I have been looking for a tables that did the comparisons for vaccinated vs. unvaxed. This is by age group for the last 120 days in AB.
Table 1: Hospitalization
Table 2: ICU
Table 3: Deaths

There should be no doubt for anyone over 12, that they should be vaccinated.


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> Why unvaccinated people are still admitted to the hospitals? People have rights to die, let them die.


I assume, because they want to be. If they don't want to go to hospital nobody is going to force them.


----------



## sags

My wife called the vaccination phone line and booked a booster shot for 20 minutes later. It will take her that long to drive to the clinic.

There is no problem around here to get a booster, except that people are waiting for the 6 month waiting period to expire.


----------



## Money172375

sags said:


> My wife called the vaccination phone line and booked a booster shot for 20 minutes later. It will take her that long to drive to the clinic.
> 
> There is no problem around here to get a booster, except that people are waiting for the 6 month waiting period to expire.


It’s 24 weeks in Ontario….slightly less than 6 months…for those in a hurry.


----------



## james4beach

In the latest public updates, BC has been explaining what's going on with a worrying picture: this current COVID wave in BC has hospitalizations that are just as high as previous waves, and ICUs are just as full. In other words, despite our very high vaccination rate, this wave _was not_ suppressed.

It turns out what's happening is that *fully vaccinated people over age 80, and to a lesser extent over 70*, are actually catching severe COVID and ending up in hospital. The other cases are all unvaccinated people.

Younger, fully vaccinated people are not ending up in hospital except for those with health conditions and immune system problems.

It's the more vulnerable people over 70 (those with health conditions) that are at highest risk of this, and it seems absolutely clear that these people should get their third dose ASAP to protect themselves. This group was also the first to be vaccinated, quite a while ago now.

I think society has been focusing a lot on the story of the "unvaccinated" and yeah, these people are in extreme danger and DO end up in hospital no matter what age they are.

But I also wanted to point out that people 70 and over, or anyone with serious health problems (especially compromised immune systems) really has to be extremely cautious. Vaccinated or not, they are ending up in hospital and dying.

If you are fully vaccinated and 70 years old, even if you're pretty healthy, I suggest being extremely careful out there, obviously wearing good masks and avoiding gatherings except for trusted friends.


----------



## james4beach

If you're curious about why so many fully vaccinated people are ending up in hospital, I recommend checking out this recent presentation where Bonnie Henry gets into the details of who's in hospital, and why. The explanation is far better than anything I've seen in the media.

Starts around 15 minutes. Worth watching to understand who is getting seriously ill these days.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

SASKATOON - 
Third-year University of Saskatchewan student Jimmy Ding, originally from China, has lived in Canada since 2014, and has been staying at St. Andrew’s College while pursuing a degree in geological engineering.


He said his religion, which he prefers not to disclose, doesn’t allow him to receive a COVID-19 vaccine, and this has resulted in him being evicted from his campus residence. 

"I just practice what my religion script tells me to do," Ding said, adding he’s providing proof of negative tests to the college. “Because my vaccination status, and they try to evict me. I feel it’s not very appropriate."


----------



## Beaver101

^


> "*I just practice what my religion script tells me to do*," Ding said, adding he’s providing proof of negative tests to the college. “Because my vaccination status, and they try to evict me. I feel it’s not very appropriate."


 .. the bolded part just summed it up. BOGUS. In especial he prefers not to disclose which is within his right of that no one else wants to know either.

He can feel whatever he wants - inappropriate, unfair, unreasonable, blah, blah, blah but the fact is the university has a vaccination "mandate". And that mandate is applicable to "everyone" who wants to live there. Suggest he buy his own place with no eviction ever or rent elsewhere as I'm certain there're scumlords who would welcome him with open arms. End of story.


----------



## Beaver101

https://www.sacbee.com/news/article255668446.html



> *California officer dies after missing vaccination deadline *THE ASSOCIATED PRESS NOVEMBER 10, 2021 11:14 AM SAN FRANCISCO
> 
> _A police officer who was placed on leave for missing the city of San Francisco’s deadline to be inoculated has died after being stricken by COVID-19, the San Francisco Chronicle reported.
> 
> Officer Jack Nyce, 46, tested positive on Nov. 2 and died Saturday at a hospital in Manteca, his wife, Melissa Nyce, told the newspaper Monday.
> 
> The Chronicle said Melissa Nyce declined to say whether her husband was vaccinated but the vice president of the San Francisco Police Officers Association, Lt. Tracy McCray, said *Jack Nyce was on a 30-day stint of paid administrative leave because he had not received the vaccination required by the city. *
> 
> The death comes as mandates for government employee vaccinations are seeing some push-back. The San Francisco Police Department said last week that as many as 70 sworn and civilian workers had been placed on leave for not meeting a Nov. 1 vaccination deadline. A press release said that as of Nov. 2, 97.5% of department employees were fully vaccinated_. ...


----------



## fireseeker

Money172375 said:


> Booked my dad for his booster. For anyone in Ontario, the gap needed between #2 and #3 is actually 168 days (24 weeks), not 6 months as widely published.


Hi Money,
Can you share a source for the 24 weeks? We're getting close to that threshold, but only see references to six months on the Ontario covid website.
Thanks!


----------



## Money172375

fireseeker said:


> Hi Money,
> Can you share a source for the 24 weeks? We're getting close to that threshold, but only see references to six months on the Ontario covid website.
> Thanks!





https://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/publichealth/coronavirus/docs/vaccine/COVID-19_vaccine_third_dose_recommendations.pdf



the provincial booking system is also set up for 168 days.


----------



## damian13ster

Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States - European Journal of Epidemiology







link.springer.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*The spike protein of SARS-CoV-2 variant A.30 is heavily mutated and evades vaccine-induced antibodies with high efficiency








The spike protein of SARS-CoV-2 variant A.30 is heavily mutated and evades vaccine-induced antibodies with high efficiency - Cellular & Molecular Immunology







www.nature.com




*


----------



## damian13ster

Not a surprise. We elicit response in our body by being exposed to small amount of the virus.
With the vaccine that doesn't stop infection or spread, the virus eventually learns how to evade it when being exposed to the antibodies.
Chances are that subsequent mutations will get better and better against it. 
Vaccinated people are perfect incubators for mutations increasingly resistant to the vaccine induced antibodies.


----------



## sags

The mutatation is believed to originate in Tanzania which has almost 0% vaccinations, so it looks like it mutated in an un-vaxxed population.

We can only hope the scientists can keep up with the mutations and provide vaccines for it.

Hopefully there will be a better way to deliver the vaccine by pill, spray or patch........instead of mass vaccinations which take too much time.

Otherwise if that mutation gets loose.....we will certainly be in a forced self preservation mode.

WHO is watching the mutations, but not a lot of people have any faith in them anymore.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> We can only hope the scientists can keep up with the mutations and provide vaccines for it.


Yes, but as I said back in 2020, this is unlikely.



> Hopefully there will be a better way to deliver the vaccine by pill, spray or patch........instead of mass vaccinations which take too much time.


The alternative methods don't work very well, we tried it with the flu vaccine.



> Otherwise if that mutation gets loose.....we will certainly be in a forced self preservation mode.


Guess we have to go back to standard prevention measures then eh?


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> The mutatation is believed to originate in Tanzania which has almost 0% vaccinations, so it looks like it mutated in an un-vaxxed population.
> 
> We can only hope the scientists can keep up with the mutations and provide vaccines for it.
> 
> Hopefully there will be a better way to deliver the vaccine by pill, spray or patch........instead of mass vaccinations which take too much time.
> 
> Otherwise if that mutation gets loose.....we will certainly be in a forced self preservation mode.
> 
> WHO is watching the mutations, but not a lot of people have any faith in them anymore.


 ... I don't suppose that Tanzania mutation is the same as these 2 new Delta offshoots called sublineage AY.25 and AY.27 that experts at home (out west) are warning too. Yikes!!!!

Two new Delta offshoots have emerged in Western Canada. It’s a warning, say disease experts


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> https://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/publichealth/coronavirus/docs/vaccine/COVID-19_vaccine_third_dose_recommendations.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> the provincial booking system is also set up for 168 days.


 ... the latest (this morning November 15, 2021) from CP24 is the Ontario government "could" lower the age cutoffs for booster shots. 

So am expecting your/provincial website's pdf (from November 12, 2021) to be updated.


----------



## Beaver101

Quebec judge refuses injunction against abandoned vaccine mandate for health-care workers



> _A Quebec Superior Court judge on Monday rejected a request for injunction against the province’s COVID-19 vaccine mandate for health-care workers, nearly two weeks after the government suspended the health order.
> 
> *Justice Michel Yergeau’s 47-page decision denied the request by unvaccinated health network employees, including nurses, doctors and other workers.
> 
> The applicants weren’t able to demonstrate that the order wasn’t in the interest of the public, and he said it could enter into force even if there isn’t consensus on it.
> 
> It is not for the court, Yergeau wrote, “to rule summarily on proposals which oppose individual rights and what the elected officials consider in the public interest and which leaves room for debate.”*
> 
> Earlier this month, the Quebec government abandoned its Nov. 15 deadline for health-care staff to be vaccinated or suspended without pay, because it worried the order would significantly reduce services in the overburdened system. Instead, it required unvaccinated staff to be tested three times a week and for new hires to be fully vaccinated.
> 
> The case on its merits – whether a mandatory vaccination order is constitutional – won’t be heard until some time in 2022, if at all.
> 
> “With regards to the investigation on the merits it will remain to be determined whether the questions raised by the applicants still play a useful role in requiring the attention of the court,” he wrote.
> 
> *Yergeau said it’s not up to the court to interfere in a political decision, but only in the legality of the acts. If the government has taken the wrong choice to protect public health, he said, it will be up to voters to decide.*
> 
> ..._


 ... et c'est au Québec. Will be interesting to see what the Ontario judge(s) will say.


----------



## Spudd

damian13ster said:


> Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States - European Journal of Epidemiology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> link.springer.com


The author of this article says it supports vaccination.








A Harvard study is going viral among anti-vaxxers. The author says they are all wrong.


New research backing vaccines is being twisted to smear them.




www.motherjones.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude

damian13ster said:


> Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States - European Journal of Epidemiology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> link.springer.com


Here in Saskatchewan as everyone got vaccinated the government said we are free people no more muzzles, and covid cases spiked, then government said enough let’s muzzle up free people of Saskatchewan and cases went down.
The moral of story, vaccines are good and beneficial for pharmaceutical manufacturing sector only. Muzzles are good for control of virus and free minded people.


----------



## damian13ster

Spudd said:


> The author of this article says it supports vaccination.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Harvard study is going viral among anti-vaxxers. The author says they are all wrong.
> 
> 
> New research backing vaccines is being twisted to smear them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motherjones.com


Over email, Subramanian insisted that the positive effects of vaccines are not in doubt: “Other research has clearly and definitively established that the vaccines significantly reduce the risk of hospitalization and mortality.” 

I agree with the author. Data shows that it reduces the risk of hospitalization and mortality.

Also, data shows that:
“Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States,” 

The two are completely different metrics.

By getting vaccinated you are protecting yourself and nobody else.
Others by not being vaccinated expose themselves to risk and nobody else.

There is no 'greater good' here. You are just protecting yourself and still spreading disease


----------



## Eder

The vaccines have been a let down.Government ineptness has exacerbated the disappointment.Just for now not forever lol.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> Others by not being vaccinated expose themselves to risk and nobody else.


The greater good is being able to have a more normal/open economy without undue levels of hospitalization, that would harm others by using up resources for COVID treatment that could have been used to treat other conditions.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> The greater good is being able to have a more normal/open economy without undue levels of hospitalization, that would harm others by using up resources for COVID treatment that could have been used to treat other conditions.


So tackle obesity. Single biggest predictor of healthcare utilization yet we are doing absolutely nothing
(and don't go around with the contagious BS - vaccinated people spread it as much - just look at actual data)


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Over email, Subramanian insisted that the positive effects of vaccines are not in doubt: “Other research has clearly and definitively established that the vaccines significantly reduce the risk of hospitalization and mortality.”
> 
> I agree with the author. Data shows that it reduces the risk of hospitalization and mortality.


 ... so what's your problem?



> Also, data shows that:
> “Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States,”
> 
> The two are completely different metrics.


 ... and so what's your point? You're a statistical genius who can point out the (different) "metrics"? which are?



> By getting vaccinated you are protecting yourself and nobody else.


 ... and so what's your problem? Don't you want to protect yourself first? Duh.



> Others by not being vaccinated expose themselves to risk and nobody else.


 ... what an eff -duh who doesn't know the* basic definition *of "infectious". You might as well say "what pandemic?"



> There is no 'greater good' here. You are just protecting yourself and still spreading disease


 ... again, what's your problem? Your earlier gospel was (gasp!) "vaccinated" people are still infectious and unvaccinateds don't so you got your wish.

*There's still time to join the People of "new Fish Name" club or get your own island and live there.*


----------



## damian13ster

The problem is that we are being blatantly lied to and the country is being divided based on misinformation spread by the government. If you don't see the hate growing in Canada then you are blind. And the hate is driven by politicians who lie to people and deny science.

It wasn't a gospel. It is a fact supported by science. Yet politicians and media ignore the fact in order to divide people and increase hate. That's the problem


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> The problem is that we are being blatantly lied to and the country is being divided based on misinformation spread by the government. If you don't see the hate growing in Canada then you are blind. And the hate is driven by politicians who lie to people and deny science.
> 
> It wasn't a gospel. It is a fact supported by science. Yet politicians and media ignore the fact in order to divide people and increase hate. That's the problem


 ... talking about yourself? Don't you have a (real) job to attend to during the day?


----------



## Spudd

damian13ster said:


> So tackle obesity. Single biggest predictor of healthcare utilization yet we are doing absolutely nothing
> (and don't go around with the contagious BS - vaccinated people spread it as much - just look at actual data)


Obesity is a thorny problem with no clear solution. Covid is a problem with a clear solution to hospital utilitization (vaccination).


----------



## damian13ster

Obesity without COVID sends people to hospital
COVID without obesity doesn't.

Vast majority of hospitalizations with COVID are among obese people.
And solutions are clear. Less sugar, less salt, more movement.
Yet we literally aren't doing anything to affect people's personal choices when it comes to sugar or salt consumption.
Quite the opposite actually.

Yet suddenly we want to affect other personal choices by threatening people with loss of means to live? What gives?

The moment it turned out that vaccination doesn't stop the spread, section 1 of the charter simply doesn't apply anymore. The problem is that judicial system is slow as hell and to paraphrase a judge 'it is not to interfere in political decisions' - so we won't get confirmation of it until late 2022.


----------



## sags

People don't drop over dead because they are chubby.

Besides, "obesity" as defined by some health organizations means anybody who isn't toothpick skinny.

Don't worry.....you will lose weight when you are older and won't be able to keep your pants up.

That is why God created suspenders.


----------



## damian13ster

At 175cm to be considered obese (BMI >30) one would need to weight >91kg. 
Hardly a toothpick. 
The fact that one would consider anything below that a 'toothpick skinny' is the best proof that Canada has serious problem that it isn't addressing. 

Trying to address a speck in an eye while ignoring elephant in the room - sadly this is the very definition of politics, and consequently, health policy


----------



## andrewf

You can't wave a magic wand and make people not obese. That is a long term public health issue. Not sure what you propose damian--if you are under BMI 30 you can sign a waiver allowing hospital to refuse you medical care for COVID if you choose not to get vaccinated?


----------



## damian13ster

No. I suggest government should stop lying to people and focus on mass testing program to stop infected people from spreading the virus. Vaccine passports literally allow people to go unchecked and spread the virus, while testing is discouraged. It is completely ineffective and peer reviewed scientific studies prove that. And let's use this opportunity to fix the health care in Canda which is absolute, unmitigated disaster. Focus on prevention and diagnosis. Help with awareness about sugar content, make access to dietitians free or low cost to all Canadians. 
Stop spending twice as much as other countries on healthcare for 40% of results others are getting.

There are systemic issues - an elephant in the room that we refuse to address.
And there is current issue that we are working actively to make worse by discouraging testing.
Vaccines passports are useless in stopping Covid and stopping the restrictions - testing is the way to do it


----------



## sags

5 foot 9 inches and 125 lbs is considered a health weight........that is a beanpole.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> People don't drop over dead because they are chubby.
> 
> Besides, "obesity" as defined by some health organizations means anybody who isn't toothpick skinny.
> 
> Don't worry.....you will lose weight when you are older and won't be able to keep your pants up.
> 
> That is why God created suspenders.


 ... re daminxxster post #5096, that's saying Covid doesn't attack skinny people. Amazing.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> 5 foot 9 inches and 125 lbs is considered a health weight........that is a beanpole.


Yeah, let's just give lower bound 
Healthy weight for that height according to Harvard is 125lb -165lb. Sounds very reasonable.
124lb is underweight.

And covid attacks skinny people. Just sends them to hospital at extremely small rate beaver. Not that I expect you to understand. You proved lack of ability of understanding difference between infection and hospitalization multiple times


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> 5 foot 9 inches and 125 lbs is considered a health weight........that is a beanpole.


That's right on the edge of the normal range.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Yeah, let's just give lower bound
> Healthy weight for that height according to Harvard is 125lb -165lb. Sounds very reasonable.
> 124lb is underweight.
> 
> And covid attacks skinny people. Just sends them to hospital at extremely small rate beaver. Not that I expect you to understand.* You proved lack of ability of understanding difference between infection and hospitalization multiple times*


 ... right as I'm not as sophisticated as you in not being able to even understand the basic definition of "infectious", let alone infection. And doesn't matter how miniscule % that skinny people gets hospitalized due to Covid, they're still people that needs hospitalization. 

And if you go on to say that the majority of the Covid patients are fat people, then there's the proof you're spreading the division/discriminating contrary to your proclaimations & accusations of others in doing that plus the hate. Keep it up.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... right as I'm not as sophisticated as you in not being able to even understand the basic definition of "infectious", let alone infection. And doesn't matter how miniscule % that skinny people gets hospitalized due to Covid, they're still people that needs hospitalization.
> 
> And if you go on to say that the majority of the Covid patients are fat people, then there's the proof you're spreading the division/discriminating contrary to your proclaimations & accusations of others in doing that plus the hate. Keep it up.


If you read post 5096 and got 'Covid doesnt attack skinny people' then yeah, that was only logical conclusion based on your response.

And there is significant difference between lying to sow division, which is what Government of Canada is doing, and providing easily verifiable, peer reviewed, scientifically accurate facts.


----------



## Eder

I agree that more focus on testing rather than marginalizing people on their vax status is appropriate. Although I've had 3 shots of Moderna I see that the vaccine is not all its been promoted as.


----------



## damian13ster

Gibraltar has 100% vaccination rate.
They are seeing record cases right now (described by the government as 'exponential') 
Masks are mandatory in public places.
Advisory against any social events, parties, receptions, christmas parties for next 4 weeks.

This is for clueless people still thinking restrictions are because of unvaccinated.


----------



## james4beach

I actually think society has gone overboard with putting so much faith in the vaccine.

I still think you would be *insane* to not get the vaccine (the protection is tremendous) but still, people think it makes them bulletproof. It does not.

And I also think it's wrong to restrict movements of the general public based on vaccination status. Air travel in Canada now requires vaccination, but they really should allow an option for non vaccinated people, like showing a negative test. Perhaps they already do this? Every Canadian should be allowed to travel... showing a negative test is a perfectly good way to do it.

I feel bad for non vaccinated people who aren't able to travel domestically. We already have such a high vaccination rate in the country that I'm not concerned about the very small % of non vaccinated people on a plane. Plus if they've showed a negative test, I don't see any danger.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> If you read post 5096 and got 'Covid doesnt attack skinny people' then yeah, that was only logical conclusion based on your response.
> 
> And there is significant difference between lying to sow division, which is what Government of Canada is doing, and providing easily verifiable, peer reviewed, scientifically accurate facts.


 ... you still haven't answered the question of "do you own the Government of Canada" so here's the next one "do you run or want to run (for) the Government of Canada"? Somehow, I always see the picture of Hitler every time I read a post such this one from you.

Reminder: Still time to get your own island and do all the tests there.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Gibraltar has 100% vaccination rate.
> They are seeing record cases right now (described by the government as 'exponential')
> Masks are mandatory in public places.
> Advisory against any social events, parties, receptions, christmas parties for next 4 weeks.
> 
> This is for clueless people still thinking restrictions are because of unvaccinated.


 .. right and the most clued people continues with the stucked-fantasy of the vaccine being a silver bullet. 

In fact such clued but mirror-less people think they're so much more intelligent and smarter than even the health experts / vaccine developers by continuously spewings on social medias along with their fancy-pancy maneouvres of posting statistical links to display their brilliant egos.

Repeat: Don't you have a (real) job to attend to during the day (like from the traditional 9 to 5 pm)? Even it's WFH or remotely of which you have to submit Covid tests everyday to your generous employer.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I actually think society has gone overboard with putting so much faith in the vaccine.
> 
> I still think you would be *insane* to not get the vaccine (the protection is tremendous) but still, people think it makes them bulletproof. It does not.
> 
> And I also think it's wrong to restrict movements of the general public based on vaccination status. Air travel in Canada now requires vaccination, but they really should allow an option for non vaccinated people, like showing a negative test. Perhaps they already do this? Every Canadian should be allowed to travel... showing a negative test is a perfectly good way to do it.
> 
> I feel bad for non vaccinated people who aren't able to travel domestically. We already have such a high vaccination rate in the country that I'm not concerned about the very small % of non vaccinated people on a plane. Plus if they've showed a negative test, I don't see any danger.


 ... guess you missed this link (detailing what's actually happening wrt flying on our national airlines currently) that I posted in the Covid thread. 

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/covid-19-travel-rules-airline-vaccine-westjet-aircanada-173203766.html


----------



## sags

Has the virus mutated or changed ?

It seems odd that vaccinations brought the virus numbers down for a bit and now they are ramping back up to record levels again.

Then again........it may have nothing to do with vaccinations but the relaxing of restrictions that created the surges.

It does appear that past waves of covid happened shortly after restrictions were removed.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> Gibraltar has 100% vaccination rate.
> They are seeing record cases right now (described by the government as 'exponential')
> Masks are mandatory in public places.
> Advisory against any social events, parties, receptions, christmas parties for next 4 weeks.
> 
> This is for clueless people still thinking restrictions are because of unvaccinated.


So you are saying that vaccinations, masking, and other measures are not working and only restrictions will stop the spread of the virus ?


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> So you are saying that vaccinations, masking, and other measures are not working and only restrictions will stop the spread of the virus ?


There is massive body of proof that vaccinations won't stop the virus.
Not sure about masking. They have those restrictions now, not sure if they had them before while cases went up exponentially.
It does seem like best way to go is to simply take care of one's personal health and hope that the exposure you get is at low enough doses that you gradually build up immunity.
Every single option has a trade-off, and there isn't an ideal solution. 
So time to stop lying to people that vaccination is the solution and 'way to get back to normal'.
Way to get back to normal is improving healthcare system, improve health of individuals, and stop shooting ourselves in the foot thinking it will somehow help.
Let's just have an open, honest public debate about it. There has been zero openness and zero debate in Canada for past 2 years. 
That's why the country is full of hate, and that's why in past 2 years we achieved nothing


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> There is massive body of proof that vaccinations won't stop the virus.
> Not sure about masking. They have those restrictions now, not sure if they had them before while cases went up exponentially.
> It does seem like best way to go is to simply take care of one's personal health and hope that the exposure you get is at low enough doses that you gradually build up immunity.
> Every single option has a trade-off, and there isn't an ideal solution.


 ... up to this point It hought was a change of tune.



> So time to stop lying to people that vaccination is the solution and 'way to get back to normal'.


 ... no it's back to the same tune.



> Way to get back to normal is improving healthcare system, improve health of individuals, and stop shooting ourselves in the foot thinking it will somehow help.


 ... might as well as the questions what pandemic? "what year are we in?



> Let's just have an open, honest public debate about it. There has been zero openness and zero debate in Canada for past 2 years.
> That's why the country is full of hate, and that's why in past 2 years we achieved nothing


 ... confirmation it's back to the same tune. Or is it the THC being smoked up?

Bottomline: A big fat zero solution equivalent to a spew.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> There is massive body of proof that vaccinations won't stop the virus.
> Not sure about masking. They have those restrictions now, not sure if they had them before while cases went up exponentially.
> It does seem like best way to go is to simply take care of one's personal health and hope that the exposure you get is at low enough doses that you gradually build up immunity.
> Every single option has a trade-off, and there isn't an ideal solution.
> So time to stop lying to people that vaccination is the solution and 'way to get back to normal'.
> Way to get back to normal is improving healthcare system, improve health of individuals, and stop shooting ourselves in the foot thinking it will somehow help.
> Let's just have an open, honest public debate about it. There has been zero openness and zero debate in Canada for past 2 years.
> That's why the country is full of hate, and that's why in past 2 years we achieved nothing


I don't know what there would be to debate.

We have tried different things and the only thing that appears to slow the spread is lock downs.

Are you advocating for lock downs ?


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> I don't know what there would be to debate.
> 
> We have tried different things and the only thing that appears to slow the spread is lock downs.
> 
> Are you advocating for lock downs ?


No, I am not advocating for lockdowns. Lockdowns proved to be ineffective as well. There were multiple peer-reviewed scientific studies that have shown that.
I don't have a full set of solution. It seems that there were 2 effective models at this stage: Chinese and Swedish. 

Doing same things that haven't worked for 2 years now and made Canadians more miserable than they ever were before for next x (how many, 2, 20, 200?) years, and expecting different results is useless though.
We are spreading division, destroying people's lifes, made Canada a place full of hate, destroyed economy, killed young people, all for nothing - complete waste of time and resources.


----------



## Beaver101

Two-thirds of Toronto parents 'certain' or 'likely' to get their children vaccinated against COVID-19: survey

Above is an update on vaccination for kids (age 5 to 11) in "Ontario" or an excerpt:

*



... Vaccinations should begin by end of month, Moore says

Click to expand...

*


> _There are believed to be about 200,000 children between the ages of five and 11 in Toronto, accounting for roughly seven per cent of the city’s population.
> 
> While it remains unclear precisely when the group will be able to get vaccinated, *Chief Medical Officer of Health Dr. Kieran Moore told an Ottawa radio station on Tuesday that he is confident that shots will be going into arms “by the end of this month.”
> 
> Moore said that he expects doses will be separated out by eight weeks, allowing most kids to get some level of protection in time for the holidays.*
> 
> “The first dose will provide a significant level of protection over the holidays,” Moore said during the interview with Newstalk 580. “So all of us are looking forward to best protecting those children and having a safer holiday.” ... _


----------



## damian13ster

Ottawa Senators ran out of players that tested COVID negative.
Games postponed.
100% vaccination rate.

Ireland:

highest ICU numbers since march
highest hospitalizations since march
highest deaths since march
highest case numbers since january

89% of population fully vaccinated


----------



## sags

Shhh.......the vaccinations aren't working but they don't want to create a mass panic.


----------



## damian13ster

Will be quiet as soon as they stop kicking people out on the street, from their jobs, for not getting an ineffective medical procedure. And as soon as they stop discouraging testing.
If people wouldn't be quiet and would protest ineffective actions, hold governments accountable, this pandemic would be long over and in endemic stage.
Instead they just enjoy misery of others - Canadians became despicable over last 2 years.


----------



## KaeJS

james4beach said:


> I still think you would be *insane* to not get the vaccine.
> 
> I feel bad for non vaccinated people


We feel bad for you, too.


----------



## KaeJS

It's been almost 2 years.
I'm still waiting to get infected.

Someone please, tell me..

Have I really just been lucky?

🙄


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> No. I suggest government should stop lying to people and focus on mass testing program to stop infected people from spreading the virus. Vaccine passports literally allow people to go unchecked and spread the virus, while testing is discouraged. It is completely ineffective and peer reviewed scientific studies prove that. And let's use this opportunity to fix the health care in Canda which is absolute, unmitigated disaster. Focus on prevention and diagnosis. Help with awareness about sugar content, make access to dietitians free or low cost to all Canadians.
> Stop spending twice as much as other countries on healthcare for 40% of results others are getting.
> 
> There are systemic issues - an elephant in the room that we refuse to address.
> And there is current issue that we are working actively to make worse by discouraging testing.
> Vaccines passports are useless in stopping Covid and stopping the restrictions - testing is the way to do it


May-be vaccine mandates for fat people?


----------



## Beaver101

KaeJS said:


> It's been almost 2 years.
> I'm still waiting to get infected.
> 
> *Someone please, tell me..
> 
> Have I really just been lucky?*
> 🙄


 ... yes, in the sense you're free to infect everyone else since you're immunized. Ever heard of the term "silent-spreader" and no I don't have a PHD in biological stats.


----------



## sags

KaeJS said:


> It's been almost 2 years.
> I'm still waiting to get infected.
> 
> Someone please, tell me..
> 
> Have I really just been lucky?
> 
> 🙄


No......it can't just be luck.

You must have super immunities.......and plenty of them. You should donate some blood, antibodies, and sperm to researchers for further study.

There may come a time when we need you to repopulate the earth and save all of humanity.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> May-be vaccine mandates for fat people?


As long as it doesn't exempt them from being tested.
No reason to have infected people walking around spreading the disease, vaccinated or not


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> As long as it doesn't exempt them from being tested.
> No reason to have infected people walking around spreading the disease, vaccinated or not


yes we should set up a couple of million testing sites fully staffed so every Canadian could be tested on a daily basis and have at least one PCR test per week. The virus would of coarse observe this and would flee our country. To make the program fully operational we could make this all mandatory. One problem the same people opposed to vaccines and masks would likely be opposed to resting. Suchs another good idea down the drain.


----------



## Beaver101

^Btw, you're too nice with your response there.

Ontario to send rapid antigen tests home with all 2.2 million school children for winter break

A test-freak's dream come true ... just for Ontario schoolkids though ... to a tune of $50M ... for how long? This Xmas holiday?

Now the parents can keep working .... til for how long? More than just 1 Xmas holiday for sure. LMAO.



> ... _Officials said the additional rapid test purchase cost the province $50 million_.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ^Btw, you're too nice with your response there.
> 
> Ontario to send rapid antigen tests home with all 2.2 million school children for winter break
> 
> A test-freak's dream come true ... just for Ontario schoolkids though ... to a tune of $50M ... for how long? This Xmas holiday?
> 
> Now the parents can keep working .... til for how long? More than just 1 Xmas holiday for sure. LMAO.


The math is simple. Now we know that it costs them $50M for 11mln test. To test Canadians bi-weekly, it would cost:
38mln x 52 x 2 x 50/11--> 18bln
The deficit last year was 314 bln for some perspective.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Anyone can do the math and in their head. And don't b1tch when the deficit train runs away ... LMAO.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Anyone can do the math and in their head. And don't b1tch when the deficit train runs away ... LMAO.


The 18bln wouldn't be on top of existing deficit.
If you identify people before they start spreading then you don't need to shut down the economy, you don't need funding for mandates, you do not need over 95% of the programs that government funded. 
The governments in Canada had deficits of 409bln in total last year. Well over 90% of that would have been avoided by spending the 18bln on testing


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> The 18bln wouldn't be on top of existing deficit.


 ... not the Feds but is Ontario in a surplus?


> *If you identify people before they start spreading then you don't need to shut down the economy*, you don't need funding for mandates, you do not need over 95% of the programs that government funded.
> The governments in Canada had deficits of 409bln in total last year. Well over 90% of that would have been avoided by spending the 18bln on testing


 ... you want to re-read what you posted? 

First of all, why do you want/need to "identify" the people ... before they start spreading? What happened to the basic "rights of privacy" all of a sudden? Duh ...not going to read the rest. It's as assinined as the "mandate to vaccinate fat people 'cause skinny people don't get Covid" as if Covid discriminates.


----------



## damian13ster

Who said Ontario is in budget surplus?

What do rapid tests have to do with privacy? You take the test, you see if you are infected, you isolate. How does taking the test violate your privacy?
Also, being coerced to medical procedure is not a privacy issue. 
I never asked for 'mandate to vaccinate fat people' - other poster did. Nor did I say 'skinny people don't get covid' - you did.
Covid doesn't discriminate on who it infects - never said it did.
You sure you aren't confusing infection from hospitalization again?


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Who said Ontario is in budget surplus?


 ... I missed the "blns".

Regardless, which province is in a surplus 'cause I like to know where you're referencing "The 18bln wouldn't be on top of existing deficit." if it's not the Feds.



> What do rapid tests have to do with privacy? You take the test, you see if you are infected, you isolate. How does taking the test violate your privacy?


 ... repeat from your post above "*If you identify people before they start spreading then you don't need to shut down the economy" ... *so people test "privately" (provided they're willing to in the first place - hence first criteria of "no mandates!") and once they do whether they're positive or not, don't they have to report it, let alone "isolate" if positive (again, no mandates!) So what privacy do they get?! 



> Also, being coerced to medical procedure is not a privacy issue.


 ... no when it's applicable to "everyone" like "everyone" in this country.



> I never asked for 'mandate to vaccinate fat people' - other poster did.


 ... and yet you agreed to that poster's mock (can't find the exact word ATM for this) with your response in post #5128 "*As long as it doesn't exempt them from being tested.*" So in effect you're agreeing with the 'mandate to vaccinate fat people'.



> Nor did I say 'skinny people don't get covid' - you did.


 ... same as above. You really can't see how you respond.



> Covid doesn't discriminate on who it infects - never said it did.
> You sure you aren't confusing infection from hospitalization again?


 ... but your focus of Covid or bulk of the hospitalization is always on "fat" people - if that's not discrimination then I don't know what. 

What difference does it make between infection and hospitalization. Don't you have to be infected first to be hospitalized? Again, your focus (let me firm this up) is on "fat people accounts for most of the hospitalizations" so if you're not being discriminatory here then tell me what is it. A bully too?


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Shhh.......the vaccinations aren't working but they don't want to create a mass panic.


That's a bit disingenuous.

The vaccines work very well for some outcomes, and less well for others, and their effectiveness for the various aspects changes over time.

They definitely save lives, and that's the primary goal. As unlikely as it was, we managed this great success.

It was never likely that a vaccine would end the pandemic. Nobody credible ever claimed it would end it.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... I missed the "blns".
> 
> Regardless, which province is in a surplus 'cause I like to know where you're referencing "The 18bln wouldn't be on top of existing deficit." if it's not the Feds.
> 
> ... repeat from your post above "*If you identify people before they start spreading then you don't need to shut down the economy" ... *so people test "privately" (provided they're willing to in the first place - hence first criteria of "no mandates!") and once they do whether they're positive or not, don't they have to report it, let alone "isolate" if positive (again, no mandates!) So what privacy do they get?!
> 
> ... no when it's applicable to "everyone" like "everyone" in this country.
> 
> ... and yet you agreed to that poster's mock (can't find the exact word ATM for this) with your response in post #5128 "*As long as it doesn't exempt them from being tested.*" So in effect you're agreeing with the 'mandate to vaccinate fat people'.
> 
> ... same as above. You really can't see how you respond.
> 
> ... but your focus of Covid or bulk of the hospitalization is always on "fat" people - if that's not discrimination then I don't know what.
> 
> What difference does it make between infection and hospitalization. Don't you have to be infected first to be hospitalized? Again, your focus (let me firm this up) is on "fat people accounts for most of the hospitalizations" so if you're not being discriminatory here then tell me what is it. A bully too?


'Existing deficits' clearly states there are no surpluses.
It simply means that spending wouldn't be 400bln deficit + 18bln extra. It would be lower deficit because of not having shut down economy, and as a trade-off spending 18bln. Spending the 18bln would lower the need for other spending that led to 400bln deficit.

Do you consider calling in sick to work a violation of your privacy? This is essentially the same.
Or do you consider someone who witnesses you sneezing, having a fewer, etc. as violation of your privacy because they know you are sick?

I don't agree with mandate to vaccinate fat people. I don't agree with mandating the medical procedure at all. 
His statement was ridiculous and he meant it to sound ridiculous to make a point. He was facetious, and so was my response. 

'Fat people account for most of the hospitalizations' - that's a fact. 
That doesn't mean fat people account for most of infections. 
There was no indication from me that fit people are getting infected at lower frequency than fat people.
They just end up in hospital at much lower rate.


----------



## sags

The tests are voluntary and nobody is checking, so what would be the point ?


----------



## damian13ster

This is a pilot, will see how it goes in Ontario.
I simply don't see asking if someone has a flu or covid as violation of privacy - beaver does.

It is far from equivalent of coercion to medical procedure.

Also, from legal basis, it has much better leg to stand on than vaccination does, because when a person is infected they directly can affect your health. When a person is unvaccinated, they don't directly affect your health


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> 'Existing deficits' clearly states there are no surpluses.
> It simply means that spending wouldn't be 400bln deficit + 18bln extra. It would be lower deficit because of not having shut down economy, and as a trade-off spending 18bln. Spending the 18bln would lower the need for other spending that led to 400bln deficit.


 ... you're still not answering the original question - which province is in a surplus? 'Cause it's gonna to cost "$50 millions to test some 2.2 millions of school kids for a period of 2 weeks.



> Do you consider calling in sick to work a violation of your privacy? This is essentially the same.


 ... no, not at all. Why would it be as you're sick, you have all the good reason to call in. Unless you're playing hookey, you still have to call you as your boss needs to know why you are not in or account for you. There's an expectation that you're at work at a certain time from your boss for the pay given to you. 



> Or do you consider someone who witnesses you sneezing, having a fewer, etc. as violation of your privacy because they know you are sick?


 ... no, why would I? Now if you start enquiring on what I'm sick of then that's a whole different story. 



> I don't agree with mandate to vaccinate fat people. I don't agree with mandating the medical procedure at all.
> His statement was ridiculous and he meant it to sound ridiculous to make a point. He was facetious, and so was my response.


 ... yes he was facetious (exact word) but I didn't read your response as facetious because as said, your focus on the bulk of Covid hospitalizations were due to "fat" people.



> 'Fat people account for most of the hospitalizations' - that's a fact.


 ... here we go again. So what if it's a "fact" or it's true. People with co-morbidities account for most of the hospitalizations as with higher ages. So what's your point here?


> That doesn't mean fat people account for most of infections.


 ... true if you state it as in the entire scheme of stats. So if you don't want to discriminate, no need to isolate a specific parameter or distinguish between fat and skinny people.


> There was no indication from me that fit people are getting infected at lower frequency than fat people.
> They just end up in hospital at much lower rate.


 ... and why would "fit" people have a higher hospitalization rate for anything? 

Getting an infection doesn't have anything to do with you being fat or skinny. It would seem obvious you're fixated with fat people getting infected more frequent and accounts for most the hospitalizations than skinny people when you state "there is no *indication from me* that fit ... " And that's your science?


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... you're still not answering the original question - which province is in a surplus? 'Cause it's gonna to cost "$50 millions to test some 2.2 millions of school kids for a period of 2 weeks.
> 
> ... no, not at all. Why would it be as you're sick, you have all the good reason to call in. Unless you're playing hookey, you still have to call you as your boss needs to know why you are not in or account for you. There's an expectation that you're at work at a certain time from your boss for the pay given to you.
> 
> ... no, why would I? Now if you start enquiring on what I'm sick of then that's a whole different story.
> 
> ... yes he was facetious (exact word) but I didn't read your response as facetious because as said, your focus on the bulk of Covid hospitalizations were due to "fat" people.
> 
> ... here we go again. So what if it's a "fact" or it's true. People with co-morbidities account for most of the hospitalizations as with higher ages. So what's your point here?
> *... true if you state it as in the entire scheme of stats. So if you don't want to discriminate, no need to isolate a specific parameter or distinguish between fat and skinny people.*
> ... and why would "fit" people would have a higher hospitalization rate for anything? Getting an infection doesn't have anything to do with you being fat or skinny. *It would seem obvious you're fixated with fat people getting infected more frequent and accounts for most the hospitalizations than skinny people when you state "there is no indication from me that fit ... " And that's your science?*


yet you distinguish between vaccinated and unvaccinated people?
I agree with you - that's exactly the point! No need to isolate a specific parameter or distinguish between fat and skinny people.

The only differentiation that makes both logical and legal sense is between people who are infected and spread the disease, and people who aren't infected and don't spread - and that differentiation is done by testing.


Again, you got it wrong. I am not fixated with fat people getting infected more frequent - there is no proof or reason to believe that they are getting infected more frequently.

You are fixated on distinguish between vaccinated and unvaccinated people. Why? You claim that it is because of hospitalization
When told and shown and proven that hospitalization rate is affected by BMI you don't want to distinguish by hospitalization rate - what gives? Double standard? Hypocrisy?
The fat vs skinny argument is exact equivalent of vaccinated vs unvaccinated - by treating those differently you are being a hypocrite! I don't treat those differently. I don't believe we should distinguish people between fat or skinny or vaccinated vs unvaccinated. The equivalency is used simply to show that you are a hypocrite

Only way I want to differentiate between people in a pandemic is on whether they are infected and therefore spreading the disease or if they are not infected and not spreading the disease - that's entire point.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> This is a pilot, will see how it goes in Ontario.
> I simply don't see asking if someone has a flu or covid as violation of privacy - beaver does.


 ... no I do not. You either have a comprehension problem or changes your tune. In my post 5136, I said "what privacy?!" Ie. you don't have any. In my subsequent post 5141, I said "no, not at all".



> It is far from equivalent of coercion to medical procedure.


 ... that's because it's self-discrimination in the making viewed as a coercion.



> Also, from legal basis, it has much better leg to stand on than vaccination does, because when a person is infected they directly can affect your help.


 .... ???? 



> When a person is unvaccinated, they don't directly affect your health


 ... still haven't got your head turn around. You might as well say "only the unvaccinateds get to breathe the air".


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... no I do not. You either have a comprehension problem or changes your tune. In my post 5136, I said "what privacy?!" Ie. you don't have any. In my subsequent post 5141, I said "no, not at all".
> 
> *... that's because it's self-discrimination in the making viewed as a coercion.*
> 
> .... ????
> 
> *... still haven't got your head turn around. You might as well say "only the unvaccinateds get to breathe the air".*


auto-correct changed 'health' to 'help'

in regards to the bolded: come back and let's have a discussion when you are not high


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> yet you distinguish between vaccinated and unvaccinated people?
> I agree with you - that's exactly the point! No need to isolate a specific parameter or distinguish between fat and skinny people.
> 
> The only differentiation that makes both logical and legal sense is between people who are infected and spread the disease, and people who aren't infected and don't spread - and that differentiation is done by testing.
> 
> 
> Again, you got it wrong. I am not fixated with fat people getting infected more frequent - there is no proof or reason to believe that they are getting infected more frequently.
> 
> You are fixated on distinguish between vaccinated and unvaccinated people. Why? You claim that it is because of hospitalization
> When told and shown and proven that hospitalization rate is affected by BMI you don't want to distinguish by hospitalization rate - what gives? Double standard? Hypocrisy?
> The fat vs skinny argument is exact equivalent of vaccinated vs unvaccinated - by treating those differently you are being a hypocrite! I don't treat those differently. I don't believe we should distinguish people between fat or skinny or vaccinated vs unvaccinated. The equivalency is used simply to show that you are a hypocrite
> 
> Only way I want to differentiate between people in a pandemic is on whether they are infected and therefore spreading the disease or if they are not infected and not spreading the disease - that's entire point.


 ... change of tune so now I'm a hypocrite. 

Let's face it - the pandemic ain't going away and the only sustainable tools we have (in the order of significance) is 1. a vaccine, 2. masking, 3. social distancing, and 4. handwashings. Yes, testings is necessary and will work but only up to certain situations (eg. travel, symptomatic) They ain't sustainable in this capitalistic society and I'm sure you're fully aware of this. But you're so adamant it's a sure way of getting out of this pandemic. I would like to see how long your employer is going to test you for ... even it's true you're getting those tests at all (and free too).


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> auto-correct changed 'health' to 'help'
> 
> in regards to the bolded: come back and let's have a discussion when you are not high


 ... my feet is firmly grounded beneath my desk. And I can smell the THC coming from your posts.


----------



## damian13ster

Why do you assume it isn't sustainable in the capitalistic society?
That's a grand statement with absolutely no backing.
Coercion to medical procedure that is not very effective in* stopping the pandemic* and straight up useless after 5 months is sustainable, but having people regularly check if they are infected is not?

I am sorry to hear that you are not high


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Why do you assume it isn't sustainable in the capitalistic society?
> That's a grand statement with absolutely no backing.
> Coercion to medical procedure that is not very effective in* stopping the pandemic* and straight up useless after 5 months is sustainable, but having people regularly check if they are infected is not?
> 
> I am sorry to hear that you are not high


 ... say that again. Who said the vaccine will "stop the pandemic" or your version of "coercion to medical procedure that is not very effective in *stopping the pandemic *and ..."

I'm neither surprised nor sorry that you're high.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... say that again. Who said the vaccine will "stop the pandemic" or your version of "coercion to medical procedure that is not very effective in *stopping the pandemic *and ..."
> 
> I'm neither surprised nor sorry that you're high.


Prime Minister said that - repeatedly. He continued with this lie even after peer-reviewed studies proved him wrong.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Prime Minister said that - repeatedly. He continued with this lie even after peer-reviewed studies proved him wrong.


 ... and if you believed him (of which you repeatedly said "the government lies, the government can't be trusted"), doesn't that tell you something ... about yourself? Anymore spews or have a look at the "Scams Alert" thread - I feel for you here.


----------



## damian13ster

So why mandate medical procedure if it doesn't stop the pandemic? If it doesn't slow down the virus? 
You are literally using Section 1 of a Charter to excuse violation of Charter of Rights and Freedom in order to do something ineffective?
In the meantime you think it is too big of a violation of privacy if a person says whether they are sick or not, and that is a reason not to introduce a measure that will actually stop the pandemic?
Because vaccinated people spread the virus.
People not infected by the virus don't spread the virus


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> So why mandate medical procedure if it doesn't stop the pandemic? If it doesn't slow down the virus?


 ... no one claimed (ok, other than Trudeau as you claim) the vaccine would stop the pandemic, not even the vaccine producers. The vaccine would reduce the need for hospitalizations, the severity of the illness. That's why you have those 90% or whatever "efficiacy" rates . If the virus mutates so much that the vaccines can't even keep up, then we're stucked with the masks and social distancings as preventive tools. Or we're fcked. I mean you can test all you want (and keep in mind those tests have to keep up with the mutative forms too) but that doesn't slow down the infections either BECAUSE people are NOT going to follow the protocols of maskings, and social distancings. That's why we have a vaccine mandate too. It's an additional tool to the "We're ALL in it together". If you ask for my "honest" opinion, we would be lucky if this pandemic ends next year.



> You are literally using Section 1 of a Charter to excuse violation of Charter of Rights and Freedom in order to do something ineffective?


 ... I think you need to read something legally concrete than going by your own knowledge or whatever that you read about the Charter of Rights and Freedom. There has already been legal debate that societal rights trump over individual rights to which the Charter of Rights and Freedom is actually based on. Ie. there's alot of myth about application of the Charter of Rights and Freedom for individuals.



> In the meantime you think it is too big of a violation of privacy if a person says whether they are sick or not, and that is a reason not to introduce a measure that will actually stop the pandemic?


 ... I think you need start with (A) to fix the infection chain first before jumping over to (Z) of ending the pandemic.


> Because vaccinated people spread the virus.


 ... and unvaccinateds don't? Is this what you're implying here?


> People not infected by the virus don't spread the virus


 ... obviously and please don't tell me the only way we can find out if a person is "infected" or not is to test. Seriously, are you going to test "everyone" to find this out? And for how long? Never mind about the false positives/negatives. Seriously re-read what you posted "people not infected by the virus don't spread the virus" - why would they when they don't anything to pass on/infect others with?


----------



## Beaver101

Here's homework for the Covid test-freak(s) here:

Safety concerns, confusion mark rollout of symptomatic COVID-19 testing program for Ontario pharmacies

Good idea or not with the rollout? Courtesy of the Ontario government.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... no one claimed (ok, other than Trudeau as you claim) the vaccine would stop the pandemic, not even the vaccine producers. The vaccine would reduce the need for hospitalizations, the severity of the illness. That's why you have those 90% or whatever "efficiacy" rates . If the virus mutates so much that the vaccines can't even keep up, then we're stucked with the masks and social distancings as preventive tools. Or we're fcked. I mean you can test all you want (and keep in mind those tests have to keep up with the mutative forms too) but that doesn't slow down the infections either BECAUSE people are NOT going to follow the protocols of maskings, and social distancings. That's why we have a vaccine mandate too. It's an additional tool to the "We're ALL in it together". If you ask for my "honest" opinion, we would be lucky if this pandemic ends next year.
> 
> *... I think you need to read something legally concrete than going by your own knowledge or whatever that you read about the Charter of Rights and Freedom. There has already been legal debate that societal rights trump over individual rights to which the Charter of Rights and Freedom is actually based on. Ie. there's alot of myth about application of the Charter of Rights and Freedom for individuals.*
> 
> ... I think you need start with (A) to fix the infection chain first before jumping over to (Z) of ending the pandemic.
> ... and unvaccinateds don't? Is this what you're implying here?
> ... obviously and please don't tell me the only way we can find out if a person is "infected" or not is to test. Seriously, are you going to test "everyone" to find this out? And for how long? Never mind about the false positives/negatives. Seriously re-read what you posted* "people not infected by the virus don't spread the virus" - why would they when they don't anything to pass on/infect others with?*


Precisely - and that is exactly the reason why testing has much better legal argument than vaccination does.
Societal rights might have applied if infection was stopped by vaccines - it isn't.
You being vaccinated doesn't protect society
You not being infected and spreading does - and that is proven by testing.
That's why testing provides benefit to the society because you don't pass on disease to others
Vaccination doesn't, because you still pass disease to others when vaccinated.

\A) Precisely - and you fix the infection chain by testing. Not by vaccinations.

To the last posted: exactly.
That's why it is important to isolate infected people.
Not unvaccinated people

Glad we finally agree on all 3 points - not sure though why it has to take such a convoluted way to get here


----------



## Beaver101

^ Let's say you're 100% right, testing is the way to go. 

Do you honestly, truly, geniunely think it'll end the pandemic? If so, suggest you present your theory to the medical experts, and scientists battling this.

Add: Please do not put words in my mouth that I "agreed" with all your 3 points. You agreed to your own 3 points about the uselessness of vaccination.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Let's say you're 100% right, testing is the way to go.
> 
> Do you honestly, truly, geniunely think it'll end the pandemic? If so, suggest you present your theory to the medical experts, and scientists battling this.


Why? The experts are not stupid, at least majority of them. False negative rate on most used tests is well known, well studied, and well documented. The access to the knowledge is common and there is no reason to believe that they aren't aware of it.
The fact that people who aren't infected don't spread, and the fact that people who are infected do spread is also known and not disputed.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Dutch are not sheep, Canadians are. 

*Riots erupt at anti-lockdown protest in Rotterdam*
Riots have erupted during a protest against coronavirus restrictions in the Dutch city of Rotterdam, officials and witnesses say. At least 9 people were injured, including two rioters who were shot by police. 

The unrest began around 8 p.m. on Friday people were gathering for a protest against coronavirus measures in the Netherlands, including the proposed “2G rule,” which requires proof of vaccination or recovery for access to certain locations.

Footage on social media showed chaotic scenes, police cars on fire, and riot police responding. In one video, a gunshot can be heard before a man falls onto the ground.








Riots erupt at anti-lockdown protest in Rotterdam


Riots have erupted during a protest against coronavirus restrictions in the Dutch city of Rotterdam, officials and witnesses say. At least 9 people were injured, including two rioters who were shot by police. The unrest began around 8 p.m. on Friday people were gathering for a protest against...




bnonews.com


----------



## sags

Right wing rioters.......nothing new, except the Dutch police don't put up with it.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Vaccines work effectively… making big pharma richer, and giving the government a pretext to experiment with “the sheep“ in how far “the sheep“ will let be restricted in freedoms and controlled.



> *Covid cases rise yet again in U.S. ahead of Thanksgiving holiday*
> Covid cases rise yet again in U.S. ahead of Thanksgiving holiday





> US COVID-19 deaths in 2021 surpass last year's toll











US COVID-19 deaths in 2021 surpass last year’s toll


The United States passed yet another sobering milestone in the COVID-19 pandemic as the number of 2021 coronavirus deaths surpassed the 2020 total.According to the latest available data f…




thehill.com


----------



## Beaver101

More than 300 TDSB staff members placed on leave as vaccine policy comes into effect

Looks like these 300 or so wolves at the TDSB don't get paid whilst getting a vacation ... and,



> ... _Unvaccinated staff will be required to undertake rapid antigen testing* three times a week.*_


 ... I can hear the PITA howlings coming next.

Let's see which governmental body is next ... oh, opening of Parliament today should be an interesting show.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

But there is something "mysterious" going on in Africa that is puzzling scientists, said Wafaa El-Sadr, chair of global health at Columbia University. "*Africa doesn't have the vaccines and the resources to fight COVID-19 that they have in Europe and the U.S., but somehow they seem to be doing better,*" she said.









Scientists mystified, wary, as Africa avoids COVID-19 disaster


When COVID-19 first emerged, health officials feared the pandemic would sweep across Africa, killing millions. Although it's still unclear what COVID-19's ultimate toll will be, that catastrophic scenario has yet to materialize in much of the continent.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> Obesity is a thorny problem with no clear solution. Covid is a problem with a clear solution to hospital utilitization (vaccination).




















Family blames authorities and covid. I blame morbid obesity and low IQ.
Darwin’s theory at work.

Langan said his family was under the impression that people with COVID-19 were supposed to "ride it out at home" and avoid health facilities. He said no one told them differently and he had expected someone to check up on them.
“*We didn't know we could go to the hospital,*" he said.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/yorkton-mother-died-covid-1.6254486



PS make a not that comment section is turned off on “democratic and free“ CBC website, but you go to russia today website funded by totalitarian regime, all articles are allowed to comment. What a coincidence.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

damian13ster said:


> Vast majority of hospitalizations with COVID are among obese people.





damian13ster said:


> Obesity without COVID sends people to hospital
> COVID without obesity doesn't.


You got it.


----------



## Beaver101

Apartment building owner hopes to set precedent with vaccine requirement



> _By The Canadian Press
> Mon., Nov. 22, 2021
> 
> CALGARY - An Alberta-based rental housing provider says it hopes to set a precedent with its decision to require proof of COVID-19 vaccination from new tenants.
> 
> Strategic Group owns rental apartment buildings in Calgary and Edmonton. *The company says it’s the first major landlord in Canada to implement a vaccine requirement for new tenants.*
> 
> Chief operating officer Tracey Steman says she hopes other landlords follow suit. She says vaccination is the only way out of the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> Strategic Group exempts anyone who is unable to be vaccinated for medical reasons or is too young to receive the vaccine.
> 
> *The policy applies to new tenants, but the company says existing tenants must show proof of vaccine to access common areas like gyms and party rooms.*
> 
> Experts say there are no laws that expressly prevent landlords from requiring proof of vaccination._


 ... well, well, well. Alberta taking the lead on this. What a pleasant surprise.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... well, well, well. Alberta taking the lead on this. What a pleasant surprise.


It's a bad idea to discriminate this way based on medical choices someone makes.

So now people who don't get vaccinated can't find housing either? I don't support that. Food and shelter are basic necessities.

Mask requirements in buildings... absolutely. Or the landlord can even ask the person to provide a negative COVID test proof, before he meets with them to give a tour. All of that is reasonable and these are perfectly good ways to protect the landlord and other tenants.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> It's a bad idea to discriminate this way based on medical choices someone makes.


 ... very different concept from the current vaccination mandate due to a pandemic when the vaccination mandate is applicable to "everyone" legitimately non-exempt.



> So now people who don't get vaccinated can't find housing either? I don't support that. Food and shelter are basic necessities.


 ... applicable only to new tenants. Existing ones need proof. This protocol is no different than for university residents.



> Mask requirements in buildings... absolutely. Or the landlord can even ask the person to provide a negative COVID test proof, before he meets with them to give a tour. All of that is reasonable and these are perfectly good ways to protect the landlord and other tenants.


 ... you want to tell that to the Strategic Group landlord. And if you read the last sentence "_Experts say there are no laws that expressly prevent landlords from requiring proof of vaccination." _That's another way of saying this protocol imposed is no different than from your employer.

Keep in mind if any other landlords in this country are going to follow suit, then "condos" are next. Can't say the same for private housing slumlords though so no the "homelessness" excuse here.


----------



## sags

The messaging on what to do if you suspect covid is mixed and continually changing.

Our doctor won't see any patients with any symptoms. The pharmacy won't either.

I remember when the message was stay home and self isolate, but if you had trouble breathing call 911.

Now they are saying that is too late ? Why did they close a testing center here ?

I listened to the scanner one night and it was constant calls for covid symptoms to the paramedics. Everybody who had the sniffles was calling.

At one point, they had no ambulances left to send out. They brought in ambulances from another city. I imagine the ER was a disaster area.

Saying people are coming in too late........isn't giving them much information on when to know to come in.

A girl we know was told she may have in contact with someone with covid.

She had to go to the hospital to get tested. It took a couple of days for the result.

We all waited around for the results because we may have been indirectly exposed.

I am not sure what we were supposed to do if she tested positive and none of us had any symptoms yet.

I doubt they would admit us into the hospital with no symptoms......even if we had covid.

I think what we really need is good home testing kits.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> Saying people are coming in too late........isn't giving them much information on when to know to come in.


Everyone who can afford it should own a "pulse oximeter" at home. Mine costs about $45 on amazon. Easy to use. Put it on your finger and read your oxygen saturation level. If that level drops below 90%, get to the hospital. Any questions?

We are now living in a covid endemic world. In the flu world I imagine everyone owned a thermometer to measure body temperature. In a covid world you now need a pulse oximeter. It is what it is.

While you are at it pick up a home blood pressure monitor also. That should be observed also, along with your body temperature, as well.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> The messaging on what to do if you suspect covid is mixed and continually changing.


 .. not sure which messaging systems you're referring to. But on the ON's website, there is a list/doc from the MOH called Covid-19 Reference Document for Symptoms (version 8-August 26, 2021) that outlines most common Covid symptoms with guidance of what to do if those symptoms are clear/indeed Covid ones.



> Our doctor won't see any patients with any symptoms. The pharmacy won't either.


 ... same here. Sign at the doc's door says you'll be referred to the nearest hospital ER. 

As for the pharmac(ies), not sure what they can do for a patient with Covid. Alot of the big pharmacies in TO do vaccine/flu shots and asymptomatic testing (for travel or employers' request) - by appointments only. Need to check their websites for services and locations specific. But now knowing of some of these are going to participate in "symptomatics" testing (even by appointments only), I'll be sure "my" pharmacy is not on that list. If it's, adios. From what I read on the news, this is already happening (if not happened), some customers have switched their RX lists (or that of their elderly parents) to another non-participating pharmacy. I don't blame them, no matter how much confidence that "it's safe" as oozed by the head of the Pharmacy Association, ON's Chief Medical Officer, and Ms. Elliott.



> I remember when the message was stay home and self isolate, but if you had trouble breathing call 911.
> 
> Now they are saying that is too late ? Why did they close a testing center here ?


 ... who are you hearing it's "too late"? No, if you have trouble breathing (for whatever reason), you have to go to ER unless you have an oxygen breathing apparatus to temporarily help and then you still have to go to ER. If you don't go into ER for a chance to be saved, then death at home will be imminent. Closing a testing center in your town/city? Then you have to ask your city councillor where do its citizens go for testing if needs to then?



> I listened to the scanner one night and it was constant calls for covid symptoms to the paramedics.* Everybody who had the sniffles was calling.
> 
> At one point, they had no ambulances left to send out. *They brought in ambulances from another city. I imagine the ER was a disaster area.


 ... that's a real waste of resources. Some citizens really need to use some common sense.



> Saying people are coming in too late........isn't giving them much information on when to know to come in.


 ... your area's Public Health really need to step up on its communications effort. Imagine there's a natural disaster of some sorts in your area, then what? Chaos?



> A girl we know was told she may have in contact with someone with covid.
> 
> She had to go to the hospital to get tested. It took a couple of days for the result.
> 
> We all waited around for the results because we may have been indirectly exposed.
> 
> I am not sure what we were supposed to do if she tested positive and none of us had any symptoms yet.


 ... there's not much you can do but wait for her results and if it's positive, she has to isolate. In the meantime, you can monitor yourself for any symptoms. If you don't have any, then god bless. I'm sure if she was positive and you being an elderly, you'll get symptoms. If it's bad, then it's ER. If it isn't, then isolate too.



> I doubt they would admit us into the hospital with no symptoms......even if we had covid.


 ... I think so otherwise the hospital will be swamped with people. Besides, do you want to be next to a person with symptoms. Keep in mind, the hospital is a petri-dish of germs.



> I think what we really need is good home testing kits.


 ... would be a good idea but who pays? Not sure if you read but Toronto public schools are getting home-testing kits (to a tune of $50M true or not, IDK for sure) for the kids to test over the Xmas holidays. The assinined thing about this is the "tests" are voluntary and even the kids don't use those tests, they'll NOT be refused back at school. Do you think the kids are gonna to be tested? Eff-duhs with the ON government.


----------



## damian13ster

I think they will. Did you ever go through a rapid test? It is extremely quick, very convenient, and you can make your kids feel like a scientist - with right approach they might love it.
And you personally, if you had a quick, easy, free, non-invasive, no side-effect way to check if you have the virus then wouldn't you? Out of curiosity and to make sure you don't infect your family?


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> I think they will.


 ... how do you know, for sure? How do you prove they will. [Care to show your famous "facts" criteria here, please.] For all you know, they said "we tested and we're negative" and they're in school.



> Did you ever go through a rapid test? It is extremely quick, very convenient, and you can make your kids feel like a scientist - with right approach they might love it.


 ... no, and don't think I ever will if I take the necessary pre-cautions and fully aware of my surroundings. If the tests make the kids (or even the adults) feel like scientists, all the more power to them.



> And you personally, if you had a quick, easy, free, non-invasive, no side-effect way to check if you have the virus then wouldn't you? Out of curiosity and to make sure you don't infect your family?


 ... as said, very first step is to ensure my family don't get exposed. [Moreover, I'm not paying $40 a pop no matter how convenient it is when it isn't necessary.] End of story. Besides, I don't like to play Russian Roulette like some people do. And no, I'm not hiding under a rock though it does feel like the need to when answering your questions here.


----------



## sags

OptsyEagle said:


> Everyone who can afford it should own a "pulse oximeter" at home. Mine costs about $45 on amazon. Easy to use. Put it on your finger and read your oxygen saturation level. If that level drops below 90%, get to the hospital. Any questions?
> 
> We are now living in a covid endemic world. In the flu world I imagine everyone owned a thermometer to measure body temperature. In a covid world you now need a pulse oximeter. It is what it is.
> 
> While you are at it pick up a home blood pressure monitor also. That should be observed also, along with your body temperature, as well.


The problem is that none of the diagnostics identify covid from other ailments like the flu or a cold.

Only a positive covid test will do that.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... how do you know, for sure? How do you prove they will. [Care to show your famous "facts" criteria here, please.] For all you know, they said "we tested and we're negative" and they're in school.
> 
> ... no, and don't think I ever will if I take the necessary pre-cautions and fully aware of my surroundings. If the tests make the kids (or even the adults) feel like scientists, all the more power to them.
> 
> ... as said, very first step is to ensure my family don't get exposed. [Moreover, I'm not paying $40 a pop no matter how convenient it is when it isn't necessary.] End of story. Besides, I don't like to play Russian Roulette like some people do. And no, I'm not hiding under a rock though it does feel like the need to when answering your questions here.


You are the one playing russian roulette by not testing before seeing your family.
And 40$ a pop? Go and complain to your government for gouging you, because actual prices are closer to 20% of that.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> The problem is that none of the diagnostics identify covid from other ailments like the flu or a cold.
> 
> Only a positive covid test will do that.


Of course. My suggestion referred to what a person needs to do once they get a positive covid test result. Unless you are very sick at the time you will be told to go home. Now what do you do? You really don't want to have to run out and get that pulse oximeter then. You may not get that amount of time.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> You are the one playing russian roulette by not testing before seeing your family.


 ...if you say so and continue playing your kiddie game of getting to be a scientist or a doctor. For one, I'm not concerned with the need to test each day or 3 times a week just to be WFH (aka working from home) while vaccinated too (supposedly) just to satisfy my employer.


> And 40$ a pop? Go and complain to your government for gouging you, because actual prices are closer to 20% of that.


 ... hey I don't set the $40 per pop and since I don't need to test, no complaint is required. Unlike you at lucky $8 per pop, testing 3 times a week at minimum equates to $96 per month (plus tax) , your employer gets the joy of forking that out so that they keep you at home playing doc whilst supposedly working.


----------



## Beaver101

Number of Ontario schools closed due to COVID-19 outbreaks hits double digits for first time this year

So the spread is increasing at school, at least double that of last year in said same period. Let's hope the now approved vaccinations for 5 to 11 year olds plus the proposed take-home-testings will help reduce that number for the new year (2022).


----------



## sags

But.....but.....Mr. Matt said this couldn't happen.

There is no doubt that the outbreaks in schools leads to increases in the surrounding neighborhoods where the kids live.

It was so easily predictable.


----------



## damian13ster

It was easily predictable - the moment vaccines for kids are approved they declare outbreaks among kids.


----------



## sags

The problem with the open, closed, open, closed, plan for schools is that parents have to scramble now to find day care for their kids.

Ontario voters will have an easy choice next spring. Boot Ford and elect Horvath.

Voters will have a choice between the NDP and a totally inept Conservative government.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> But.....but.....Mr. Matt said this couldn't happen.
> 
> There is no doubt that the outbreaks in schools leads to increases in the surrounding neighborhoods where the kids live.
> 
> It was so easily predictable.


 ... 'cause in MrMatt's (fantasy) world, kids are not humans but little bots ... only problem even little bots can infect everything.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> It was easily predictable - the moment vaccines for kids are approved they declare outbreaks among kids.


 ... of course, as a genius, your timing is so precise. So why the $50M tests too?


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> The problem with the open, closed, open, closed, plan for schools is that parents have to scramble now to find day care for their kids.
> 
> Ontario voters will have an easy choice next spring. Boot Ford and elect Horvath.
> 
> Voters will have a choice between the NDP and a totally inept Conservative government.


 ... well yeah, if Ontarians aren't happy with their government, then the musical chair / switcheroo game plays again. 

It'll be most unfortunate if someone else gets the crowning glory of Premier at the next election considering Ford took the brunt of the nasties from the pandemic. That's why it's so ever important that he keeps his eye on the balls for the voters and not sit on his tussies thinking he has done a fantastic job. The job ain't over until the pandemic is over.


----------



## sags

Yea, I had to laugh today when on the radio a Conservative pundit said...

_Doug is a real nice guy and tries hard, but he isn't a deep thinker. He is better letting someone else take charge over things._

I have to admit that Christine Elliot has done a pretty good job since she took over.


----------



## Money172375

I don’t know why ontario isn’t lowering the age for booster shots. Seems there isn’t huge demand.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> I don’t know why ontario isn’t lowering the age for booster shots. Seems there isn’t huge demand.


I think they have to watch capacity, the demand for childrens shots this morning was crazy. 20 minute wait to access the website and book.

Also I heard they want a 24 week wait, if they do that then they don't have to make a bunch of rules and decisions, just say "after 24 weeks you can get a booster".


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Yea, I had to laugh today when on the radio a Conservative pundit said...
> 
> _Doug is a real nice guy and tries hard, but he isn't a deep thinker. He is better letting someone else take charge over things._
> 
> I have to admit that Christine Elliot has done a pretty good job since she took over.


 ... I say so-so on Ms. Elliott as both rocks the same boat.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> I don’t know why ontario isn’t lowering the age for booster shots. Seems there isn’t huge demand.


 ... this video just showed up where Dr. Issac Bogoch (IIRC, I think he's one of the top guys in infectious disease from the TGH dep't) suggested the age limit should lowered to 50 and above for the 3rd shot (booster). So it's coming.

CP24 - Toronto News | Breaking News Headlines | Weather, Traffic, Sports


----------



## Beaver101

Anti-vaxxing desperados with the need to attack an ice-cream manufacturer too.  

I wonder which company is next ... would be cool if it's a bank or some big (financial) institution. Let's see whose mouths are bigger.

Anti-vaxxers 'boycotting' Chapman's ice cream


> _Published Nov. 22, 2021 2:10 p.m. EST
> 
> MARKDALE, ONT. -
> Anti-vaxxers are targeting Chapman's ice cream over the company's COVID-19 vaccination policy, threatening members of the family-owned business.
> 
> “In fact, I got a threatening package this morning from Druthers, saying 'the hundreds of employees you’ve fired,' now we’re going to come out with an article, and that will show you who’s boss,” says the vice-president of the family-run ice cream company, Ashley Chapman.
> 
> *Druthers is an anti-vaccine, anti-COVID-19-restriction alternative "news" publication*
> 
> On Nov. 12, Chapman’s announced they’d be giving their fully-vaccinated employees a $1 per hour raise by month’s end. Disgruntled employees leaked the raise news to some anti-vaccine groups, who have in turn launched a boycott of Chapman’s products.
> 
> That came less than a week after, Chapman’s started twice-a-week rapid testing for about 100 of their 850 employees, who had decided against getting vaccinated. Five employees refused, and are currently on unpaid leave.
> 
> “The far-right anti-vaxxers have taken it up, as in, we’re horrible people, and we need to be taught a lesson,” says Chapman.
> 
> So far, Chapman says the boycott has not impacted sales of their ice cream treats at all. He calls the boycott “frustrating” since the company was trying to find a middle ground, by deciding against a vaccine mandate, as many other organizations and businesses have.
> 
> *“We’re really trying hard to work with these people, but it can be tough at times, especially when you’re being boycotted for this. It seems a bit ridiculous,” he says.*
> 
> A counter movement, #IStandwithChapmans, has gained a little momentum with supporters who are promising to buy even more ice cream in the coming months to support the Markdale, Ont.-based company.
> 
> “It’s been overwhelming on the other side of things, it’s just that the negative comments, they hurt. We’re trying to do good in everything we do, so this was somewhat unexpected,” he says.
> 
> The $1 per hour premium for fully-vaccinated Chapman’s employees takes effect Nov. 28. The unpaid leave for the five employees who refused rapid testing started Monday.
> 
> *In March 2020, the ice cream company announced a "pandemic pay boost," giving employee a $2 per hour pay increase. The wage increase became permanent later that year.*_



#IStandWithChapmans trends on social media following boycott led by anti-vaxxers



> _By Adam BellNovember 24, 2021 12:08pm
> 
> A boycott of a local ice cream manufacturer has ended positively according to the company’s owner.
> 
> Chapman’s Ice Cream was targeted recently online over the company’s COVID-19 vaccination policy, which included a $1-per-hour bump to any employee that was double-vaccinated, but Vice President Ashley Chapman says the emergence of the hashtag “#IStandWithChapmans” has led to an overwhelmingly-positive response from Chapman’s customers across the country.
> 
> Chapman tells CKNX “We came to the conclusion that here we are, as a company, giving money to unvaccinated people that work for us, whereas the vast majority, over 90%, of our employees have been vaccinated. So we thought, you know what? This isn’t fair”.
> 
> *Chapman is referring to the cost associated with acquiring rapid test kits for unvaccinated employees, noting they were going to continue employing those that weren’t vaccinated, but they would have to submit to a rapid test twice per week.*
> 
> *Chapman said “We figured the cost-per-unvaccinated employee was going to be around $40. Came to conclusion that if we were going to spend this money on unvaccinated people, we should be spending the same amount of those that are vaccinated”.
> 
> “That’s when we put up the policy regarding the $1.00-per-hour increase for vaccinated employees”.*
> 
> This was when a targeting campaign, seemingly led by “anti-vaxxers” from across Canada, was launched, leading to a hugely-negative response for the Markdale-based ice cream maker.
> Asked if he had received threats, Chapman said “Oh yes, absolutely”.
> 
> *“Voicemail messages left to us were unreal” said Chapman. “Most threatening ones were anonymous. One gentleman left a very aggressive message on my father’s answering machine, accusing him of being like Hitler, and that he was a Nazi, and that we should all be hauled in front of a judge and tried”.*
> 
> Soon after the negative response, however, came what Chapman described as an “Overwhelmingly-positive outpouring of support” from customers across the country, sending the hashtag “#IStandWithChapmans” trending.
> 
> *Chapman says the company’s reputation remains intact, and they will continue to pay workers “Well above a living wage” and continue to make donations that benefit the local community*._


 ... the above bolded parts in purple sounds very familiar / similar to some of the flames on this forum. ...hmmm.


----------



## damian13ster

Cool. 95% of people who refused to vaccinate were fine with testing to prove they are safe to their surroundings. Good news


----------



## Beaver101

^ They (or the 5) maybe fine but 1. for how long, and 2. what's with the attacks on the employer? You think the employer are going to let off disgruntled employees? I think the employer needs to file a police report.


----------



## damian13ster

What attack? A news media article? A boycott of products? If customers decide to boycott a product based on actions of the producer then is the producer to file a police report?
Everyone who doesn't buy Chapman should end up in handcuffs?

And regarding your question to Mr. Matt;

How is he supposed to know whether your statement was malicious or just based on your lack of knowledge? Only you know that.


----------



## sags

He knows he is playing scrabble in his posts.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> He knows he is playing scrabble in his posts.


 ... yep, and are you ever so polite.


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> ^ They (or the 5) maybe fine but 1. for how long, and 2. what's with the attacks on the employer? You think the employer are going to let off disgruntled employees? I think the employer needs to file a police report.


 ... and more revelations on what an employer gets for trying to accommodate the savages:

Chapman's Ice Cream says positive feedback has far outweighed negative after onslaught from anti-vaxxers



> Anti-vaxxers have lashed out at Chapman’s Ice Cream over a pay increase for fully vaccinated employees. The VP calls the attacks ‘vile.’
> 
> Joshua Freeman, CP24 Web Content Writer
> Last Updated Wednesday, November 24, 2021 7:12PM EST
> 
> Despite an onslaught of hatred from anti-vaccine activists over a pay bump for vaccinated employees, Chapman’s Ice Cream says it has in fact received far more positive feedback than negative.
> 
> “The positive backlash of this has been overwhelming — 10 to 20 times more positive than negative at this point,” Champan’s vice-president Ashley Chapman told CP24 Wednesday. *“And I really believe that most of Canada is standing behind Champan’s for trying to do the right thing.”*
> 
> The furor around the Canadian ice cream company, based in Markdale, Ont., started after the company told its employees that it would give a one dollar per hour raise to vaccinated employees, the logic being that the company was spending roughly the equivalent to frequently test each unvaccinated employee.
> 
> “I was having a chat with my mother and we just decided you know what? It's not fair that we're treating the unvaccinated and paying them more essentially than the vaccinated. So we thought, fair enough. We'll cover the test for the unvaccinated to make sure everybody's safe. And everybody else gets a $1 increase.”
> 
> Chapman estimates that less than 10 per cent of some 850 workers at the family-run company are unvaccinated. *He said the company figured out that it was spending around $40 per week on regular COVID-19 testing for those employees.
> 
> The company has not fired anyone for not getting vaccinated. Chapman said his family saw the move as a middle-of-the-road approach to keep workers safe without stigmatizing anyone.
> 
> But the company started getting bombarded with hate online after an employee took a screengrab of a notice about the policy and posted it in an anti-vaxxer forum.*
> 
> *Chapman said the response was “shocking.”
> 
> “The aggression, the threats, the everything has just been constant,” he said. “The most vile things that you can possibly think of to say to another human being have come out.”*
> 
> *He said that includes messages from people saying they hope the whole family dies of cancer or that their business burns to the ground and they’re left with nothing.*
> 
> “And those are not the worst of the things that we've been getting,” Chapman said. “Frankly, it's been shocking. *These people really should be ashamed of themselves for what they're saying.”*
> 
> He said once the screengrab was out on the internet, *those spewing hate at the company "didn't care about the facts,” including the fact that the company has not forced anyone to get vaccinated.
> 
> “We want to take the middle ground in this whole stance to try and give a little compassion to the people that are unvaccinated and not treat them like they're their lepers or something. And the anti-vaxxers have decided that that we should be punished for not doing exactly what they think is right.*”
> 
> But while some vilified the company because of its policy and called for a boycott, others praised it for taking steps to protect its workers.
> 
> “Oh, I think I’ll be adding @Chapmans_Canada ice cream sandwich bars to my grocery order. Yeah. There will be no boycotting of Chapmans here,” one Twitter user wrote.
> 
> Others started using the hashtag #StandWithChapmans.
> 
> “I hear anti-vaxxers are bullying Chapman's. Where do I buy some of this #ChapmansIceCream ?” another user wrote.
> 
> Food processing facilities have seen a high rate of COVID-19 outbreaks throughout the pandemic, often because it is difficult to distance in the workspace. Companies have come under pressure to make their facilities safer for workers.
> 
> It's not the first time that the company has received strong praise from the public.
> 
> *Earlier in the pandemic, Chapman’s offered up ultra-cold freezers to help store the Pfizer vaccine, which requires storage temperatures below -70 Celsius and also offered all of its workers a permanent pay bump.*


 ... as much as I love Chapmans and will support them as part of the positive feedback, however, I'm wary about the kind (or a start) of the un-believeable and un-called for hostility online towards the company on trying to be (very) fair towards all its employees. I'll definitely be looking very closely at any of their products purchased in the next while in case of sabotage especially knowing 1. they still have these kind of disgruntled employees, and 2. god know what these are capable of next.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> What attack? A news media article? A boycott of products? If customers decide to boycott a product based on actions of the producer then is the producer to file a police report?
> Everyone who doesn't buy Chapman should end up in handcuffs?
> 
> And regarding your question to Mr. Matt;
> 
> How is he supposed to know whether your statement was malicious or just based on your lack of knowledge? Only you know that.


 ... the article in my post #5194 just now says it all about ... you ... without the need to write up a 2 pages post ... for facts, data, the genius in you ... blah blah blah. the whole 9 yards.


----------



## damian13ster

It really doesn't. 
It just shows that there are idiots online - not exactly groundbreaking knowledge.
Doesn't say anything that employees are harassing the employer, and you want to prosecute them for some sick reason.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> It really doesn't.
> It just shows that there are idiots online - not exactly groundbreaking knowledge.
> Doesn't say anything that employees are harassing the employer, and you want to prosecute them for some sick reason.


 ... not yet ... until the police sleuths out exactly who made those calls. Don't forget the company's policy (supposedly private and confidential being company's property) didn't mysteriously jumped over on its own to the anti-vaxxers' forum. 5 names ain't hard for the police to monitor.

It's now 10 am Thursday (work weekday) and aren't you supposedly to be "working" on your "paid-job" (paid by someone else that includes 3 x a week Covid rapid test accomodation) and not here on this forum?


----------



## damian13ster

Knowledge-based economy - don't clock in and out. As long as I get my tasks done and come up with a way to save/earn money for my employer I have no issues checking out news, listening to music, or doing other things during the time. 

a) if police bothered about every single stupid phone call then they would have no time for anything else
b) I wasn't aware that NDAs also cover basic HR policies
c) you make assumption that it was one of 5 people that shared the HR policy - although that is a possibility, it is far from given. Vaccinated people or people willing to be tested can also disagree with the policy


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Knowledge-based economy - don't clock in and out. As long as I get my tasks done and come up with a way to save/earn money for my employer I have no issues checking out news, listening to music, or doing other things during the time.


 ... your buddy MrMatt, the manager would love to hear your ... excuse. Half an hour stepping out to a restaurant for his employee is considered company's time regardless.



> a) if police bothered about every single stupid phone call then they would have no time for anything else
> b) I wasn't aware that NDAs also cover basic HR policies
> c) you make assumption that it was one of 5 people that shared the HR policy - although that is a possibility, it is far from given. Vaccinated people or people willing to be tested can also disagree with the policy


 ... depends on how hard the Chapman owners presses for an investigation and how diligent is the town's police-force. Don't know what an NDA is and don't care. 

The very first "fact" is someone (an employee) has already violated company's policy of posting "confidential information" on a public forum. And it's very unlikely a "vaccinated" employee getting a $1 raise would be disgruntled enough to do that as if he/she enjoys shooting him/herself in the foot.


----------



## Beaver101

For the facts and data-loving crowd on this forum to enjoy the read.

Only nine Ontarians under the age of 60 have ended up in the ICU with a breakthrough case of COVID-19, newly released data shows



> Chris Fox, CP24 Web Content Writer
> Published Thursday, November 25, 2021 10:40AM EST
> 
> There have been more than 17,000 so-called breakthrough cases of COVID-19 involving fully vaccinated Ontarians over the last year but the number of those people under 60 who eventually ended up in an intensive care unit is only nine.
> 
> Public Health Ontario has compiled a new report examining the prevalence of breakthrough infections in the province up until Nov. 14.
> 
> *The report provides the most exhaustive look at breakthrough infections in Ontario to date and seems to support the testimony of public health experts, who have consistently argued that the vaccines are extremely effective at preventing both symptomatic infection and hospitalizations. *
> 
> The data shows that there have been 17,596 breakthrough cases among the more than 11 million Ontarians who are fully vaccinated, accounting for 3.8 per cent of all lab-confirmed cases.
> 
> But it also suggests that the share of fully vaccinated people who end up in hospital is even lower, particularly among those under the age of 60.
> 
> *In fact, over the last year there have been just 83 people under the age of 60 who have ended up in hospital with a breakthrough case of COVID-19. Of those individuals, just nine of them have required treatment in an intensive care unit.
> 
> As a point of comparison a total of 8,355 unvaccinated individuals *under the age of 60 have ended up in hospital with COVID-19 over the same time-period and *1,722 of them have required treatment in the ICU.*
> 
> Across all age groups the number of individuals with breakthrough infections who ended up in intensive care is 81, accounting for about 1.9 per cent of COVID-19 ICU admissions.
> 
> The release of the data comes as fully vaccinated individuals begin to account for an increasingly larger share of Ontario’s overall caseload, sometimes even making up the majority of new infections in the province’s daily case counts.
> 
> But the authors of the report caution that an increasing share of breakthrough infections is to be expected with more than 85 per cent of Ontarians age 12 and up now fully vaccinated.
> 
> *They do say that the evidence continues to suggest that when COVID-19 cases occur following vaccination “there is evidence that vaccines reduce symptomatic infection, the severity of illness, as well as transmission.”*
> 
> “Over time as a population becomes more highly vaccinated the number of post-vaccination cases, including breakthrough cases, will likely increase,” the report notes. “Even with a highly effective vaccine, cases may occur among vaccinated individuals due to a larger proportion of the population being vaccinated than unvaccinated.”
> 
> The data released by Public Health Ontario suggests that the rate of COVID-19 infections in fully vaccinated individuals has “remained consistent over time,” even with many of those people now months removed from receiving their second doses and Ontario beginning to administer booster shots to a small group of individuals amid concerns about waning immunity.
> 
> However, infectious disease specialist Dr. Isaac Bogoch told CP24 on Thursday morning that it also points to the need for a wider rollout of third doses.
> 
> So far there have only been 40 instances of breakthrough cases of COVID-19 involving individuals who are 14 days out from a third dose.
> 
> “If we look at the data it is pretty clear that we could expand or should expand eligibility for third doses,” he said. “We don’t all need third doses and we can debate which age cohort would be best served by third doses at this time but my take is the 50 and up crowd. Other people might look at the data and say something else. That is OK. But I think it is fair to say that we should be expanding third doses in Ontario.”


----------



## damian13ster

EU shortening the validity of vaccines to 9 months
Israel already saying 4th dose will soon be required


----------



## Beaver101

'I'm excited to feel safe': Child COVID-19 vaccine clinics ramp up in Ontario

Sounds like the 5th graders are smarter than some adults so why am I surprised?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Nice.

The World Health Organization is monitoring a new variant with numerous mutations to the spike protein, scheduling a special meeting Friday to discuss what it may mean for vaccines and treatments, officials said Thursday.

The variant, called B.1.1.529, has been detected in South Africa in small numbers, according to the WHO.
South African scientists have detected more than 30 mutations to the spike protein, the part of the virus that binds to cells in the body, South African scientist Tulio de Oliveira said in a media briefing hosted by the South Africa Department of Health on Thursday.


The B.1.1.529 variant contains *multiple mutations associated with increased antibody resistance, which may reduce the effectiveness of vaccines, along with mutations that generally make it more contagious*, according to slides he presented at the briefing.









WHO calls special meeting to discuss new Covid variant found in South Africa with 'a large number of mutations'


The World Health Organization is monitoring a new variant with numerous mutations to the spike protein, officials said Thursday.




www.cnbc.com






regardless let’s jab the kids and profit the big pharma who are financing the election campaigns. Win win for everyone involved.

but fear not my friends, I have a grand solution to this problem, send everyone home, print lots of money and give it to the people. Everyone is happy and healthy.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

PRAGUE, Nov 25 (Reuters) - Czech President Milos Zeman was taken back to hospital on Thursday after testing positive for the coronavirus, his office said, just hours after his release following more than six weeks of treatment for an unrelated condition.
*Zeman has been vaccinated against the coronavirus three times









Czech President Zeman returns to hospital after positive COVID test


Czech President Milos Zeman was taken back to hospital on Thursday after testing positive for the coronavirus, his office said, just hours after his release following more than six weeks of treatment for an unrelated condition.




www.reuters.com




*


----------



## Beaver101

^ And further details of the above link say:



> ... _News website www.seznamzpravy.cz quoted UVN director Miroslav Zavoral, who is Zeman's main physician, as saying he had the president, who had been receiving visits during his previous hospitalisation, take a test for COVID-19 after a "risky" contact with an employee at Lany.
> 
> He was taken to the hospital to receive treatment with monoclonal antibodies, he said.
> 
> The president was previously admitted to hospital on Oct. 10 with complications to a chronic illness that his office never specified but which doctors said was a liver condition. ._..


 ... likely his vaccine shots have waned by now and now a "risky" contact must have been loaded with (new) viruses. At least the prior 3 vaccinations kept him Covid-free (no symptoms?) given his existing "liver condition." 

He's so lucky to be receiving monoclonal antibodies treatment that is considered inaccessible to common citizens.

Moral of the above link: don't play roulette with Covid unless you're prepared not to regret it.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Nice.
> ...
> *regardless let’s jab the kids and profit the big pharma who are financing the election campaigns. Win win for everyone involved.
> 
> but fear not my friends, I have a grand solution to this problem, send everyone home, print lots of money and give it to the people. Everyone is happy and healthy.*


 ... hey, nothing stopping you from doing both. Open your own big pharma (or try to close the existing ones - your choice) and print your own money and give it to everyone.

And re the Nice to the new South African variants ... Europe and Asia are preparing (or has closed) to close its borders. Might be abit late considering it has been detected in 2 major cities in both continents. Matter of time before North America gets it, and selfishly Canada. 

Maybe the wolves' dream will come true when earth is occupied only by wolves ... then it's who to hunt next?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Coronavirus: Countries shut borders over new South Africa variant








Coronavirus: Countries shut borders over new South Africa variant


Nations ban flights as health officials hold an urgent meeting over a new variant in southern Africa.



www.bbc.com




*


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> And re the Nice to the new South African variants ... Europe and Asia are preparing (or has closed) to close its borders. Might be abit late considering it has been detected in 2 major cities in both continents. Matter of time before North America gets it, and selfishly Canada.
> 
> Maybe the wolves' dream will come true when earth is occupied only by wolves ... then it's who to hunt next?


Because I was telling from the beginning that it is impossible to make a vaccine for corona virus, many tried including avian diseases scientists. The solution? Let it run, human population is far from extinction, if it wasn’t killed by plague, Spanish flu, corona has zero chances to exterminate humanity. If you don’t believe me check the death to birth ration for 2020


----------



## Beaver101

^ So why are you still typing? Or wanna to troll here.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ^ So why are you still typing? Or wanna to troll here.


To show how dumb sheep are.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> To show how dumb sheep are.


 .. and so? What's your point? That wolves, by nature, are smart, clever, cunning, conniving, devious, ferocious, malicious, and ... shall I go on? And that they have a need to group together in a pack to hunt for their prey ...until then ... they turn to being cannibals. 

Need to troll-some-more?


----------



## sags

A viral scientist said that if he sat down with a pencil and paper and drew a virus that would be the most dangerous.......it would look like this new variant.

I predicted that a mutation could be incubated among an un-vaxxed population and this one did. It originated in Botswana, a low vaccinated country.

Herd immunity is not worth discussing. The healthcare system would collapse and many people would die. That is not acceptable to any sane Canadian.

People hospitalized with this virus could infect the entire hospital, including the health workers we depend on to save the rest of us.

We shouldn't panic, but we must take the necessary steps to contain this mutation any way we can.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> A viral scientist said that if he sat down with a pencil and piece of paper and drew out a virus that would be the most dangerous.......it would look like this new variant.
> 
> I predicted that a mutation could be incubated among an un-vaxxed population and this one did. It originated in Botswana.
> 
> *Herd immunity is not worth discussing. The healthcare system would collapse and many people would die. That is not acceptable to any sane Canadian.*
> 
> We shouldn't panic, but we must take the necessary steps to contain this mutation any way we can.


 ... re your bolded part - that "supposedly sane" Canadian still wants to remain in Canada sitting on his duffs, telling the rest of the population what to do - "nothing and just go die off". 

Typical of trolls with the "Do as I say, not as I do" as if they were the "Messiah(s)" to the rest of the population they see as being sheep people.


----------



## damian13ster

That is precisely the opposite. 
People do not want to tell others what to do, nor to be told by others what to do.
Simply because they were told what to do for past 2 years and look where it got us - we are in worse spot since politicians decided to become authoritarians than we were there


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> That is precisely the opposite.


 ... this statement would be true for a twist-o-matic.



> People do not want to tell others what to do, nor to be told by others what to do.


 ... the latter part of this statement is true for 99.9% of the people, however, the former statement is false with some narrators (thank Lord, a handful which is enough already) on this forum. You might see it as people do not "want" to tell others what to do but they sure like to influence (aka indirectly tell) others what to do.



> Simply because they were told what to do for past 2 years and look where it got us - we are in worse spot since politicians decided to become authoritarians than we were there


 ... easier to blame someone else. Like an obedient little sheep, did you do what you were told to do? Bet not, otherwise you won't be here spewing.

And do you know with 100% certainty that we (as everyone, sheep et al) would be in a better position if we (the majority) didn't have the vaccine/ follow government guidance/protocols. Or better yet follow Ukrainedude's solution of "Do nothing. Let nature runs its course. Let the weak ones (mostly vulnerable seniors and disableds) die off." Must be fun playing God for you guys as you don't "want" to tell others what to do. Really.

Remember: the vaccine is still voluntary.


----------



## damian13ster

Your thinking is precisely why religions survived for millennia 
You can't prove something wouldn't happen or something doesn't exist.
All we know for 2 years we acted like idiots shooting ourselves in the foot and are worse off than we were before.

If I tell you to do something, and if you don't then I will take your means to live away (no job, no income, no support, no social safety net) then it isn't voluntary. You are being disingenuous. Your way of thinking would justify literally anything including genocide, holocaust, and residential schools.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Your thinking is precisely why religions survived for millennia
> You can't prove something wouldn't happen or something doesn't exist.
> All we know for 2 years we acted like idiots shooting ourselves in the foot and are worse off than we were before.
> 
> If I tell you to do something, and if you don't then I will take your means to live away (no job, no income, no support, no social safety net) then it isn't voluntary. You are being disingenuous. Your way of thinking would justify literally anything including genocide, holocaust, and residential schools.


 ... if you say so. And here's a secret for you - I'm not religious, just pro-life.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> 'I'm excited to feel safe': Child COVID-19 vaccine clinics ramp up in Ontario
> 
> Sounds like the 5th graders are smarter than some adults so why am I surprised?


5th graders just repeat what adults tell them. Saying they're excited to feel safe sounds like a marketing campaign.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> 5th graders just repeat what adults tell them. Saying they're excited to feel safe sounds like a marketing campaign.


 ... just like anti-vaxxers telling their kids "no, you ain't getting it as it's dangerous. you can die from it" ... as what? PROPAGANDA.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... just like anti-vaxxers telling their kids "no, you ain't getting it as it's dangerous. you can die from it" ... as what? PROPAGANDA.


Getting all the other vaccines but not being sure of one rushed and unproven vaccine (it's not really a vaccine) isn't being anti-vax.

People might be less suspicious of the shot if they weren't hiding the data and lying about it's effectiveness.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Getting all the other vaccines but not being sure of one rushed and unproven vaccine (it's not really a vaccine) isn't being anti-vax.


 ... 3 "unsure" and "unproven" choices of vaccine NOT to pick from in Canada ... AZ (abbreviated here), Pfizer or Moderna. And if that's not anti-vax, then I don't what is. Will J&J one be proven? Or the Jansen one? Or maybe the one at the end of the pandemic if one is still alive.



> People might be less suspicious of the shot if they weren't hiding the data and lying about it's effectiveness.


 ... who are the "they" "hiding" the data and "lying"? The vaccine manufacturers? Even the manufacturers give the data to anti-vaxxers to analyze, it's will still be unproven to them as per its conspiracy-theory beliefs. 

I hope you're aware that even with any simple medications you take, there is no "guarantee" that 1. it'll work for you, and 2. if it does work there'll be no side effects. So are the drugs manufacturers lying to you there too? And please don't tell me you don't even take a Tylenol.


----------



## damian13ster

How about ones that:

actually stop infection
are effective for more than 4 months
went through normal 5-10 year trials

The bar is not particularly high - tons of vaccines cleared it. Those simply did not


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Sheep should just accept that we all going to get covid soon or later.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> How about ones that:
> 
> actually stop infection
> are effective for more than 4 months
> *went through normal 5-10 year trials*
> 
> The bar is not particularly high - tons of vaccines cleared it. Those simply did not


 ... how about you develop and manufacture the vaccines for the pandemic, if you're so bright, Mr. Scientist? Don't forget on getting a quick approval too. In this case, from a Mr. Dump.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Sheep should just accept that we all going to get covid soon or later.


 ... you're most welcomed to be the first in the "we". And no hiding at home in the basement, behind the monitor.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Here we go again. Roll up your sleeves sheep. 


Andy Slavitt 

@ASlavitt
Both Pfizer & Moderna estimate 100 days to develop a vaccine for a new variant. Manufacturing, approvals & distribution take time but we are getting more efficient at all. If we start in early December, *new vaccines could be available by summer* in much of the world.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ... you're most welcomed to be the first in the "we". And no hiding at home in the basement, behind the monitor.


 Why do you think I am worried about getting covid? As a matter of fact I might already had it.
My ninety years old grandparents in Ukraine got through it alright, and still refusing to get vaccinated. Go figure. Listen to your government telling you stories about dangerous covid. It just a harsh common cold. Don’t be obese and you will be fine, vaccinated or not.


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> Listen to your government telling you stories about dangerous covid. It just a harsh common cold. Don’t be obese and you will be fine, vaccinated or not.


This is a dangerous misconception that has resulted in many deaths. Covid can send perfectly healthy to the hospital.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... 3 "unsure" and "unproven" choices of vaccine NOT to pick from in Canada ... AZ (abbreviated here), Pfizer or Moderna. And if that's not anti-vax, then I don't what is.


Then you don't know what anti-vax is. People who get every single vaccine but have valid concerns about one of them are not anti-vax.



> ... who are the "they" "hiding" the data and "lying"? The vaccine manufacturers? Even the manufacturers give the data to anti-vaxxers to analyze, it's will still be unproven to them as per its conspiracy-theory beliefs.


Pfizer wants to withhold their vaccine data for 55 years.



> I hope you're aware that even with any simple medications you take, there is no "guarantee" that 1. it'll work for you, and 2. if it does work there'll be no side effects. So are the drugs manufacturers lying to you there too? And please don't tell me you don't even take a Tylenol.


I know that drugs have side effects. I also know that drug companies have a very long history of lying and suppressing data. For example, in 2009 Pfizer was fined $2.3 billion for bribing doctors and suppressing adverse trial results.


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> Then you don't know what anti-vax is. People who get every single vaccine but have valid concerns about one of them are not anti-vax.


I think that's part of the issue, there are legitimate concerns, but they want to pretend that they're unfounded.
There are cases of people being hospitalized, having serious side effects, and dying due to the COVID19 vaccines.

For example, if dose 1 resulted in your hospitalization, I think you should be granted a medical exemption. 
This is a no brainer, and the fact that it isn't accepted shows how unreasonable the forced vax crowd is.

Yes I'm aware that studies show low risk.








People with allergic reaction to COVID-19 vaccine can still get second dose: NACI


Canada's vaccine advisory committee says it's possible to safely give a second dose of the COVID-19 vaccine to people who experienced severe allergic reactions to their first shot.




www.ctvnews.ca





However, if the vaccine puts you in the hospital, I think you have a legitimate reason to be hesitant. 
Now I'll make the diversity argument, the panels deciding this policy don't' have adequate representation from those who experienced serious side effects from the vaccine, and this lack of diversity in lived experience is causing bad policy.


----------



## sags

Nobody is being forced to vaccinate.

If their immune system reacts so violently to an increased immune system, they likely wouldn't do well with covid, so they should stay safe at home.

If people provide qualified proof of their medical issue, the government should allow them to collect EI to replace wages.

If people have a religious exemption, their religious organization should pay them for their lost wages.

If people are collecting government benefits or pension........they get paid regardless.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Then you don't know what anti-vax is. People who get every single vaccine but have valid concerns about one of them are not anti-vax.


 ... then what do you call the good folks who have "valid concerns" but "not legitimately exempt" from taking the vaccine, if not called anti-vaxxers? Pro-vaxxers, holdout /undecided until don't-know-when vaxxers, religious non-vaxxers ... ???? Your pick.

I had asked Eder this question in another post of which I'm sure all of you have seen and so far I haven't been given an answer so I can only go with "anti-vaxxers".



> Pfizer wants to withhold their vaccine data for 55 years.
> 
> I know that drugs have side effects. I also know that drug companies have a very long history of lying and suppressing data. For example, in 2009 Pfizer was fined $2.3 billion for bribing doctors and suppressing adverse trial results.


 ... as if no other pharma does that. You take your chance as you take your chance with smoking MJs legitimately bought from a store even knowing who the manufacturer/grower is (eg. ABC GrowOp).

Say hypothetically, no vaccine for Covid was available whatsoever for this pandemic (and you do agree we do have a "pandemic", correct? got to make sure of this), what do you propose we do in the meantime? Masking (what, hell no to human muzzles?! says the anti-maskers), social distancing (what?! can't do that - we got businesses to run, people need to eat and sh1t plus we'll go bonkers with the adults first), or just sit and do nothing - wait to die as proposed by Ukrainedude in which case I think we need more morgues than ICUs at the hospital. Would you prefer this one better? Particularly for our politicians whom you pay your taxes to? I'm expecting it's a "Hell NO" response here also.

How about the genius solution from your buddy Damianxxster, have everyone test, everyday to see if they're positive Covid before they do anything. In his case, to ensure he's negative so that he would be able to "work" ... from home first. Never mind about stepping out for anything else. As said, he's lucky his "employer(whoever that might be)" is so generous to pay for his tests here and there but I don't think the rest of us is that lucky.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... then what do you call the good folks who have "valid concerns" but "not legitimately exempt" from taking the vaccine, if not anti-vaxxers? Pro-vaxxerx, holdout /undecided until when-don't-know vaxxers, religious non-vaxxers ... ???? I asked Eder that question which I'm sure all of you have see and so far I haven't been given an answer so I can only go with "anti-vaxxers".


Anti vaxxers is a perjorative term to dismiss anyone who opposes the view.

The question of who is "legitimately exempt" is also political. 
In some places personal preference is enough to be "legitimately exempt", in others being hospitalized for adverse reactions is not enough to be "legitimately exempt".


As far as what to call them? Maybe a more nuanced term?

Like, what do you call me? 
I respect the right to refuse medical treatment, but I think that the unwarranted pulling of the very safe and effective AZ vaccine was wrong. I also think delaying boosters so long is wrong.
I'm more pro-vax than the government, but I support the right of people to opt out, even though I think most of them are wrong.

Am I an antivaxxer because I respect human rights?
Am I a pro-vaxxer because I want more availability?

What about the government restricting access, is restricting access "anti-vax". Remember when they pulled AZ for unsubstantiated safety concerns, they CAUSED a shortage in vaccine availability.
But they're also trying to force it on people who don't want it, so does that make them "pro-vax".


It seems people have trouble with real debate, and they want to simplify it to a B&W argument without any grey.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... then what do you call the good folks who have "valid concerns" but "not legitimately exempt" from taking the vaccine, if not anti-vaxxers? Pro-vaxxerx, holdout /undecided until when-don't-know vaxxers, religious non-vaxxers ... ???? I asked Eder that question which I'm sure all of you have see and so far I haven't been given an answer so I can only go with "anti-vaxxers".


You can call people hesitant about a Covid shot whatever you want, but that doesn't make it an accurate description. They are not anti-vax.



> ... as if no other pharma does that. You take your chance as you take your chance with smoking MJs legitimately bought from a store knowing who the manufacturer/grower is (eg. CBC GrowOp). Say there was no vaccine for Covid was available whatsoever, what do you propose we do in the meantime? Masking (what?! says the anti-maskers), social distancing (what?! can't do that - we got businesses to run, people need to eat and sh1t and we'll go bonkers), sit and do nothing - just wait to die as proposed by Ukrainedude. How about test everyone, everyday to see if they're positive Covid before they do anythign - this one from your other buddy daminxxster.


So you agree that they withhold data but now say "everyone does it". Why didn't you just say "you were right" in the first place instead of making a false accusation?

I remember when vaccines protected people from the unvaccinated. Now we're told that vaccines don't really protect you but everyone has to get one anyway.


----------



## sags

Maybe the soldiers sitting in trenches in France during WW1 would have liked to "debate" the command to go over the top into withering machine gun fire ?

We elect leaders to make decisions, not to continue with endless debates on what needs to be done.

Unlike the soldiers in the trenches, if you don't agree with the decisions the leaders make......you can vote for different leaders.


----------



## Beaver101

^ For post #5233 from MrMatt: Let me put it this way - your preference for "grey" just take things around in a circle. As a manager, is that your preference for a "solution", knowing time is of the essence also.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> You can call people hesitant about a Covid shot whatever you want, but that doesn't make it an accurate description. They are not anti-vax.


... still no definite answer from you. How about the "not-anti-vaxxers as per HappilyRetired" label?



> So you agree that they withhold data but now say "everyone does it". Why didn't you just say "you were right" in the first place instead of making a false accusation?


 ... I did not agree that they "withheld" the data - that's your assumption here along with your false accusation of "everyone does it". Big pharmas do not include "everyone" and "everything" as per your assumptions - turning into an accusation that I'm making a false accusation. Typical of table-turners or spin-o-matics.



> I remember when vaccines protected people from the unvaccinated. Now we're told that vaccines don't really protect you but everyone has to get one anyway.


 ... that's because you only want to read and believe in what you want to. I posted a link in another post that says otherwise - and it's not from a conspiracy forum.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Maybe the soldiers sitting in trenches in France during WW1 should have been able to "debate" the command to go over the top into machine gun fire.
> 
> *We elect leaders to make decisions, not to continue with endless debates on what needs to be done.*
> 
> Unlike the soldiers in the trenches, *if you don't agree with the decisions the leaders make......you can vote for different leaders.*


 ... yep ... watch the "Free Speech" two bits coming.


----------



## sags

Former FDA head Scott Gotlieb has posted on his Twitter feed information from research by the top viral experts around the world.

There is no shortage of public data or data sharing and never has been, except for China and the origins of the virus.

Interesting to read the opinion of several researchers who have broken down the latest Omicron virus.

They say it is exactly what an "experimental virus" would look like. It is designed to be more infectious, spread faster, and "escape" the immune system.

They don't yet know about many of the other mutations, because they have never seen anything like it before.

Pure random bad luck..........or an escapee from a lab somewhere ?

World governments should take a hard look if these mutations are being accidentally or purposefully released by some lab or entity.



https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> just sit and do nothing - wait to die as proposed by Ukrainedude in which case I think we need more morgues than ICUs at the hospital.


 Yeah with lethality 0.01% you gonna need lots of morgues.


----------



## sags

News reports are that 15 people on 2 flights that landed in Amsterdam from South Africa were infected.

Experts say it is likely the variant has already spread all over the world.

The case in Belgium is an un-vaccinated patient and most of the patients infected and hospitalized with this variant in South Africa were not vaccinated.

The information has raised some hope that vaccinations will have some positive impact against the Omicron variant.


----------



## sags

Ukrainiandude said:


> Yeah with lethality 0.01% you gonna need lots of morgues.


How do you know the mortality rate of future variants if the virus is allowed to spread ?

What would be the mortality rate without all the lock downs and restrictions ?


----------



## Beaver101

Conspiracy theorists are pushing toxic bleach and other harmful treatments they claim can 'de-vaccinate' people

Latest trending advice from the "concerned vaccine-regretters" for the "still deciding to-vax-or-not-to-vaxxer".


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ^ For post #5233 from MrMatt: Let me put it this way - your preference for "grey" just take things around in a circle. As a manager, is that your preference for a "solution", knowing time is of the essence also.


Well in my example there are ways I'm more pro vax than the government, and ways I'm less pro vax than the government. Deciding which of us is more pro vax is exactly the "shade of gray" I'm talking about.


----------



## damian13ster

Why do you insist on sticking a label on everyone?
Not capable of understanding that humans are complex creatures, with multiple forces, societal, and individual factors affecting decisions and behavior? Not everyone is a simpleton that can be put into a box with a label on it.

The new variant could be the best news since beginning of the pandemic. If it spreads like wildfire, makes vaccines useless, and has lower mortality than previous variants - then it is absolutely perfect.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> What would be the mortality rate without all the lock downs and restrictions ?


Sweden has a lower mortality rate than the US.


----------



## Spudd

HappilyRetired said:


> Sweden has a lower mortality rate than the US.


Also a lower obesity rate.


----------



## damian13ster

Sweden also has lower excess deaths than Canada
Sweden also has less 'years lost' than Canada

But also lower obesity rate


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> Also a lower obesity rate.





damian13ster said:


> But also lower obesity rate


Vaccination campaign is cheaper than anti obesity campaign. Plus it gives more control over the sheep.


----------



## damian13ster

It is also less effective and with new variant might turn out to be completely useless


----------



## Ukrainiandude

The Covid-19 virus may be further modified to create a deadly strain that is *as infectious as the Delta virus and just as dangerous as Ebola*. This is the warning starkly issued by the World Medical Association.

Frank Ulrich Montgomery, chairman of the global physicians’ society (WMA), shared his fears with Germany’s Funke media group’s newspapers on Saturday. He stressed the importance of not “_Giving the virus a chance_” to mutate any further. To achieve this, it may be necessary to keep “_For years, the world has been being vaccinated_” to come, Montgomery said.





Ebola is a deadly virus that can infect humans. A new covid strain could match its devastating effects, warns the WMA chairman. The Ebola virus was first identified in South Sudan and Democratic Republic of Congo back in 1976. Between 2014 and 2016, West Africa was the scene of more than 11,000 deaths. According to the World Health Organization, the disease causes severe fever and internal bleeding. The average death rate is around half a percent. However, some of the strains have caused death in as many as 90% of cases.
Montgomery said that Covid cases are expected to more than double within the next 10 days when he was asked about Germany. In addition to calling for tighter controls in his homeland, Montgomery also asked authorities to *shut down all Christmas markets, ban fireworks and put an end to any celebrations*. The scientist predicted that nationwide lockdowns and closures of businesses may become necessary if the fourth round of Covid continues to grow. Any measures taken now will only have a tangible effect in two weeks’ time and, along with the vaccination campaign, the delay could be as long as six weeks, he pointed out.
This is despite the fact that Omicron was discovered in south Africa. On Friday, the Word Health Organization formally designated Omicron a “_Variant of concern_” While scientists are still studying the novel strain, fears have already been voiced that the heavily mutated Covid variant could be more contagious than its predecessors.




__





Covid strain as deadly as Ebola may emerge, top physician warns — Analysis - Mass News


The Covid-19 virus may be further modified to create a deadly strain that is as infectious as the Delta virus and just as dangerous as Ebola. This is the warning starkly issued by the World Medical Association. Frank Ulrich Montgomery, chairman of the global physicians’ society (WMA), shared his...



www.massnews.com


----------



## Eder

So fireworks spread Covid now? I knew it!


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Why do you insist on sticking a label on everyone?
> Not capable of understanding that humans are complex creatures, with multiple forces, societal, and individual factors affecting decisions and behavior? Not everyone is a simpleton that can be put into a box with a label on it.


 ... look who's talking. Now calling (aka labelling) someone a simpleton. I'm responding on the presumption you're talking to me despite you replied right under MrMatt. Typical of a "complex" and "so so sophisicated" creature like you who can't even answer the question of "how do you wish someone to be an axxhole" that you were wishing/hoping for?

Btw, MrMatt responded that he's "pro-vax" only "in different situations" (which I"m guessing depending on his beliefs and mood) So on the assumption here that you're responding to him, that question of yours "Why do you insist on sticking a label on everyone?" is for him too.



> The new variant could be the best news since beginning of the pandemic. If it spreads like wildfire, makes vaccines useless, and has lower mortality than previous variants - then it is absolutely perfect.


 ... and the first person to be crying for "Help! I need a vaccine ASAP. I'm dying!" would be the anti-vaxxer you're supposedly "supporting" via hot air on this forum.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Well in my example there are ways I'm more pro vax than the government, and ways I'm less pro vax than the government. Deciding which of us is more pro vax is exactly the "shade of gray" I'm talking about.


 ... so basically, you're in selective(aka discrimatory)-vaxxing category? An interesting mindset ... vaccines to save (most) lives in a pandemic. No-go. Vaccine to prevent measles (which don't kill its host) as an example - yes go. Amazing.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> It is also less effective and with new variant might turn out to be completely useless


 .. of course it's less effective which fits your howling narratives here as it hasn't even been tweaked for the new variant ... of Delta even, let alone Omicron. Duh.


----------



## KaeJS

@Beaver101 

Say what you want. But I see no reason why someone cannot be for one vaccine and not for another.

Measles are not new.
COVID is.

Also - it can be argued (not with you, of course) that COVID is basically a flu... Which old people have been dying from since the beginning of time.

Maybe you should check the stats from the Canadian government on how many people between the ages of 0-19 have died from COVID since inception. I'll give you a hint... It's under 20.


----------



## Beaver101

^ As a start, why don't you tell that to those who are buried in mass graves over at Hart's Island. Or the unknowns tossed into the oceans? Afterall, they ain't worth sh1t according to your perfect mindset that young ages don't die from Covid too. And no need of any hints either.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ^ As a start, why don't you tell that to those who are buried in mass graves over at Hart's Island. Or the unknowns tossed into the oceans? Afterall, they ain't worth sh1t according to your perfect mindset that young ages don't die from Covid too. And no need of any hints either.


What's wrong with you?


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> What's wrong with you?


 ... and what's wrong with you?


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... and what's wrong with you?


Absolutely nothing. I'm just trying to figure out why you're so angry.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> Btw, MrMatt responded that he's "pro-vax" only "in different situations" (which I"m guessing depending on his beliefs and mood) So on the assumption here that you're responding to him, that question of yours "Why do you insist on sticking a label on everyone?" is for him too.


No I'm categorically pro vax. I've shown a number of ways I'm more pro vax than the various governments in Canada.
I think almost everyone should get vaccinated.

Just because I'm pro vax doesn't mean that I don't recognize that there are legitimate reasons someone would choose not to get vaccinated.

My support of vaccination isn't situational. I just happen to put human rights ahead of my position on vaccination.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Absolutely nothing. I'm just trying to figure out why you're so angry.


 ... same here. What am I angry about?


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> No I'm categorically pro vax. I've shown a number of ways I'm more pro vax than the various governments in Canada.
> I think almost everyone should get vaccinated.
> 
> Just because I'm pro vax doesn't mean that I don't recognize that there are legitimate reasons someone would choose not to get vaccinated.
> 
> My support of vaccination isn't situational. I just happen to put human rights ahead of my position on vaccination.


 ... fine, the vaccine is still voluntary so you can exercise that right. But it's still "perceived" as a situational support of vaccinations depending on what types. No?


----------



## Beaver101

Nearly 400 additional City of Toronto workers have now become compliant with vaccine mandate, hundreds more on unpaid leaves

I guess city workers do value their jobs ... at least in Toronto.


----------



## HappilyRetired

That's a tough choice for many with families to feed...take this shot or lose your job. I guess some people consider that "voluntary".


----------



## sags

So.....everybody has rights.

Nobody is forcing people to get vaccinated.

Some people are forced to work with people who aren't vaccinated.

I would say it is the vaccinated whose rights are being abused


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... fine, the vaccine is still voluntary so you can exercise that right. But it's still "perceived" as a situational support of vaccinations depending on what types. No?


Okay I support vaccination, and think most people should be vaccinated ASAP.

I do not support violating a persons human rights and forcing unwanted medical procedures on them.

I am completely comfortable supporting human rights above all other goals.
I find it unfortunate that you think human rights should come secondary to other policy objectives.
Perhaps you're not aware, but your approach to human rights is how people like you supported support the residential school genocide and non consensual sterilization of indigenous peoples.

And again, I'm still pro vax, it's just vaccination ranks second to respecting human rights.

Human rights first, other stuff second.


----------



## KaeJS

HappilyRetired said:


> What's wrong with you?


It's typical behavior of @Beaver101 

Seldom are his posts about finance, help or education. He is just here to spread the insults.


----------



## KaeJS

sags said:


> I would say it is the vaccinated whose rights are being abused


You're kidding, right?
Vaccinated people voluntarily chose to do that.
Not sure how your rights are being abused.

Because people who didn't get vaccinated are apparently making the whole world worse and causing lockdowns and restrictions?

Even with a 100% vacc rate, we would still have those restrictions in place.

Nobody forced you to get the Vaxx.
Also, nobody promised that by getting the vax, you would be able to live a normal life outside of the unvaxxed.

You and others knew the risks and the outcome of getting vaxxed. That was your choice. Your rights were not abused.


----------



## sags

I don't want to be exposed to people sneaking around un-vaccinated because I don't know who to avoid.


----------



## Beaver101

KaeJS said:


> It's typical behavior of @Beaver101
> 
> Seldom are his posts about finance, help or education. He is just here to spread the insults.


 ... if that's my typical behaviour, then what's yours? 

As for your 2nd statement, that's fit Damianxxster to a "T". He's a pro-name calling with you in training. 

Btw, I'm not a "he" and no, I'm not hp's buddy, repeating.


----------



## KaeJS

sags said:


> I don't want to be exposed to people sneaking around un-vaccinated because I don't know who to avoid.


You have the right and freedom to stay home, then.

If you're so concerned, you should exercise that right.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> I don't want to be exposed to people sneaking around un-vaccinated because I don't know who to avoid.


 ... you see, un-vaccinated people loves to "share" the air with others so they're not abusive in that sense.


----------



## KaeJS

Beaver101 said:


> ... if that's my typical behaviour, then what's yours?
> 
> As for your 2nd statement, that's fit Damianxxster to a "T". He's a pro-name calling with you in training.
> 
> Btw, I'm not a "he" and no, I'm not hp's buddy, repeating.


I guess my typical behaviour is just that of an "unvaxxed, ungrateful, stupid millenial".

That is what you think of me, is it not?

I apologize for assuming your pronouns. How should I address you in the future? (Trying to be nice).

If you say you are not HP's buddy, I believe you. But you are definitely following in her tracks.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> That's a tough choice for many with families to feed...take this shot or lose your job. I guess some people consider that "voluntary".


 ... yes, it is as "employment is at will" ... for everyone (in case the rights exerciser-supporters don't know this).


----------



## Beaver101

KaeJS said:


> I guess my typical behaviour is just that of an "unvaxxed, ungrateful, stupid millenial".
> 
> That is what you think of me, is it not?


 ... just 2 words there're applicable and then add on the word "reckless" = unvaxxed, reckless millenial.



> I apologize for assuming your pronouns. How should I address you in the future? (Trying to be nice).


 .. she instead of he?



> If you say you are not HP's buddy, I believe you. But you are definitely following in her tracks.


 ... nope, far from her capabilities. If she was around, I'm sure she would either shred you to pieces if not, throw acid on you. 

Remember, I've been labelled as a sheep so I'm meat first to the wolves howling on this site. But I remain as a beaver not to be picked at.


----------



## KaeJS

Beaver101 said:


> ... just 2 words there're applicable and then add on the word "reckless" = unvaxxed, reckless millenial.
> 
> .. she instead of he?
> 
> ... nope, far from her capabilities. If she was around, I'm sure she would either shred you to pieces if not, throw acid on you.
> 
> Remember, I've been labelled as a sheep so I'm meat first to the wolves howling on this site. But I remain as a beaver not to be picked at.


HP was nothing but an egotistical keyboard warrior who thought too highly of herself. Quite ironic, given that her username was humble pie...

She was anything but humble and she made it a priority to show it. We also lost some great people (Toronto.gal) because of her.

She may have been intelligent - but she was too brash.

I'm sure she would shred me to pieces. I have no doubt. But it seems as though she has had practice. Being on this forum for over a decade, I can't understand why anyone would take pride in being rude to a 20 year old (me) who is just starting out and trying to learn.

Plus, that woman spoke in hieroglyphics and cryptographics. You'd need a multilingual compass to figure out the meaning of anything that woman said. I'm thankful she is gone. She contributed nothing.

I may not be what most people like, but at least I have always stuck to who I am and I never shy away from it.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Israel on Saturday said it would ban the entry of all foreigners into the country — making it the first to shut its borders completely in response to the potentially more contagious omicron coronavirus variant — and that it would also reintroduce counter-terrorism phone-tracking technology in order to contain the spread of the variant.


and Canada?


----------



## bigmoneytalks

Ukrainiandude said:


> Israel on Saturday said it would ban the entry of all foreigners into the country — making it the first to shut its borders completely in response to the potentially more contagious omicron coronavirus variant — and that it would also reintroduce counter-terrorism phone-tracking technology in order to contain the spread of the variant.
> 
> 
> and Canada?


Canada? We dump 22000 tonnes of maple syrup to address the world's supply issues...that's where our priorities are.









Sappy ending: Canada digs deep into strategic reserves to cover maple syrup shortage


A poor harvest season and booming demand has prompted Quebec’s syrup ‘cartel’ to release around 22,000 tonnes of the luscious liquid




www.theguardian.com


----------



## sags

Beaver101 said:


> ... yes, it is as "employment is at will" ... for everyone (in case the rights exerciser-supporters don't know this).


Just ignore the FUD spreaders. They have been wrong throughout the pandemic and as you can observe they remain clueless.


----------



## newfoundlander61

I got topped up yesterday, COVID-19 booster done.


----------



## Beaver101

^ That was quick, good work ... I haven't even heard of a timeline for Toronto, under what age, 70 despite top infectious disease doc from TGH Dr. I. Bogoch last week "suggested" reducing the age limit to 50+.

I'm guessing ON's government is too pre-occupied with the kids' vaccine rollout presently - you know the MOH can only deal with 1 thing at a time.

Australia reports first two cases of omicron COVID-19 variant; border restrictions spread

Long (and detailed) read with the above link. But notably in UK, a "masking" mandate (re?)-imposed. Israel, closed its borders to "all" foreigners. Anyhow, some commentaries on current vaccine(s):

_



... French Health Minister Olivier Veran said that while no cases have yet been confirmed in France, “it's a question of hours,” given that omicron infections have been reported in multiple neighboring countries. “It is probable that there currently are cases in circulation,” he said on a visit to a Paris vaccination center.

While it is not clear yet how existing vaccines work against the omicron variant, *Veran said the French government isn't changing its strategy to fight the latest surge of infections driven by the delta variant, which centers on increasing vaccinations and boosters.*

David Hui, a respiratory medicine expert and government adviser on the pandemic in Hong Kong, said that even though it is not clear if current coronavirus vaccines are effective against the new variant, the city's vaccination rate should be increased and booster doses should be implemented as soon as possible.

He said that the *two people who tested positive for the omicron variant had received the BioNTech-Pfizer shot and exhibited very mild symptoms, such as a sore throat.

“Vaccines should work but there would be some reduction in effectiveness,” he said.*

Click to expand...

_ ... which translates to "something" is better than "nothing". Of course, this is not applicable to those who wants to thin the world's population or think that thinning the world's population (excluding themselves obviously) is a good idea.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

newfoundlander61 said:


> I got topped up yesterday, COVID-19 booster done.


Did you get your antibodies titres? Perhaps you don’t even need it. 
PS dogs get booster every 3 years (1 year), but some owners are concerned about over vaccination and get titres instead.

plus big pharma promises updates for vaccines by summer to protect Agains new O variant


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> I don't want to be exposed to people sneaking around un-vaccinated because I don't know who to avoid.


The vaccinated spread the virus too.

If you want to be safe you have to avoid everyone except those who haven't been vaccinated and have tested negative, or those who have had Covid and recovered. Those are the only people that can't pass along the virus.


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> The vaccinated spread the virus too.
> 
> If you want to be safe you have to avoid everyone except those who haven't been vaccinated and have tested negative, or those who have had Covid and recovered. Those are the only people that can't pass along the virus.


If you want to be safe, you avoid everyone who isn't COVID19 positive.
Being vaccinated, or having had COVID doesn't mean they are safe.

The only people who can't pass along the virus are those who don't have it.


----------



## HappilyRetired

MrMatt said:


> If you want to be safe, you avoid everyone who isn't COVID19 positive.
> Being vaccinated, or having had COVID doesn't mean they are safe.
> 
> The only people who can't pass along the virus are those who don't have it.


The CDC has said that they have no recorded cases of anyone that's recovered from Covid (natural immunity) passing it along.


----------



## Spudd

HappilyRetired said:


> The vaccinated spread the virus too.
> 
> If you want to be safe you have to avoid everyone except those who haven't been vaccinated and have tested negative, or those who have had Covid and recovered. Those are the only people that can't pass along the virus.


First of all, the vaccinated who have tested negative obviously also cannot pass along the virus. You missed them in your analysis. 

Second of all, the vaccinated are less likely to catch/spread it than the unvaccinated, which is why governments who want businesses to be able to re-open are implementing vaccine passports. This way the vaccinated, who are less likely to spread it, will be able to support local businesses, while the unvaccinated, who are more likely to spread it, will be kept away from unsafe environments where they might spread it. 









No, Vaccinated People Are Not ‘Just as Likely’ to Spread the Coronavirus as Unvaccinated People


This has become a common refrain among the cautious—and it’s wrong.




www.theatlantic.com


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> The CDC has said that they have no recorded cases of anyone that's recovered from Covid (natural immunity) passing it along.


Care to share the link to this claim? Sounds dubio
Studies from almost a year ago claim that it can happen.








Recovered COVID-19 patients could still transmit the virus, warn scientists


Public Health England says prior SARS-CoV-2 infection provides 83 percent protection against reinfection but individuals may still spread COVID-19.




www.drugtargetreview.com







Spudd said:


> Second of all, the vaccinated are less likely to catch/spread it than the unvaccinated, which is why governments who want businesses to be able to re-open are implementing vaccine passports. This way the vaccinated, who are less likely to spread it, will be able to support local businesses, while the unvaccinated, who are more likely to spread it, will be kept away from unsafe environments where they might spread it.


Less likely, and only for a relatively short time after their second dose.

I've been double vaccinated, but I might be as likely to spread it as someone who has never been vaccinated. Which is why I'm so pissed at the anti-vaxxer government blocking my booster shot.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Spudd said:


> First of all, the vaccinated who have tested negative obviously also cannot pass along the virus. You missed them in your analysis.
> 
> Second of all, the vaccinated are less likely to catch/spread it than the unvaccinated, which is why governments who want businesses to be able to re-open are implementing vaccine passports. This way the vaccinated, who are less likely to spread it, will be able to support local businesses, while the unvaccinated, who are more likely to spread it, will be kept away from unsafe environments where they might spread it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Vaccinated People Are Not ‘Just as Likely’ to Spread the Coronavirus as Unvaccinated People
> 
> 
> This has become a common refrain among the cautious—and it’s wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com


I didn't say the vaccinated were as likely to spread the virus. I said that they CAN spread the virus.

I also said that if you're unvaccinated but test negative you can't spread the virus. That's still true.


----------



## Spudd

HappilyRetired said:


> The CDC has said that they have no recorded cases of anyone that's recovered from Covid (natural immunity) passing it along.


Perhaps (I couldn't find a source for this claim, do you have one?) but they also say that people who recovered from Covid over 3 months ago should be considered infectious if they are reinfected.









Healthcare Workers


COVID-19 guidance, tools, and resources for healthcare workers.




www.cdc.gov





Some European countries allow you to be either vaccinated or recovered to get a "green passport", which I wouldn't be opposed to, since the protection seems to be reasonably similar. 

Even if your claim were true, though, that doesn't mean getting Covid is superior to getting vaccinated. You have to get Covid! Getting vaccinated is far less risky.


----------



## Spudd

HappilyRetired said:


> I didn't say the vaccinated were as likely to spread the virus. I said that they CAN spread the virus.
> 
> I also said that if you're unvaccinated but test negative you can't spread the virus. That's still true.


You implied the first point. And I agree with the 2nd point, that's undeniable. But it's pretty impractical to run around testing your entire population daily before they can go to the local pub.


----------



## HappilyRetired

MrMatt said:


> Care to share the link to this claim? Sounds dubio
> Studies from almost a year ago claim that it can happen.


This article is vague. However, I don't recall any reports of someone with natural immunity infecting someone. The goal seems to be to get everyone vaccinated so you'd think that if natural immunity was proven NOT to work we would have heard of at least actual case of it happening.
CDC admits having no evidence of naturally immune infecting others - Israel National News


----------



## HappilyRetired

Spudd said:


> You implied the first point. And I agree with the 2nd point, that's undeniable. But it's pretty impractical to run around testing your entire population daily before they can go to the local pub.


I didn't imply the first point. I clearly stated "the vaccinated can spread the virus". That's what we've been told all along and I agree with the experts.


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> This article is vague. However, I don't recall any reports of someone with natural immunity infecting someone. The goal seems to be to get everyone vaccinated so you'd think that if natural immunity was proven NOT to work we would have heard of at least actual case of it happening.
> CDC admits having no evidence of naturally immune infecting others - Israel National News


Well the headline says why
* "This information is not collected."*

They likely have no information on bitcoin ownership, because the CDC doesn't collect that information either.


That article isn't saying it doesn't happen. It's saying they're not even looking to see if it ever has.


We know natural immunity doesn't work as well as vaccine for protecting you from getting COVID.








Natural immunity doesn’t protect you as well as the Covid vaccines — here’s why


If you've recovered from Covid, you have a degree of "natural immunity" to the virus. Here's why you still need to get vaccinated, according to top experts.




www.cnbc.com





Since we've got documented breakthrough cases of people getting COVID a second time, and people getting COVID after vaccination, I'd suggest that it's logical they might spread COVID19. Particularly since there is data showing the vaccines effectiveness at reducing spread falls off sharply after the time of vaccination.

The idea that someone who's actively sick with COVID, like coughing and or even hospitalized isn't spreading it, just because this is the second time they had COVID, seems very unlikely.
I'd say as unlikely that masks help prevent the spread of a respiratory illness.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Omicron symptoms mild so far, says South African doctor who spotted it*


Omicron symptoms mild so far, says South African doctor who spotted itClose

Dr Angelique Coetzee, the South African doctor who first spotted the new Covid variant *Omicron*, says the patients seen so far have had "*extremely mild symptoms*" - but more time is needed before we know the seriousness of the disease for vulnerable people.

no need (for government) to get freaked out and abuse people (aka defenceless sheep) even more


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Relax boomers.
The currently available *vaccines* against Covid-19 appear to be *effective against the newly detected Omicron* Covid variant, South Africa's health minister said. The new variant, known as B.1.1.529, has been detected in small numbers in South Africa. ...

Read more at: Covid vaccine effective against new Omicron variant: South Africa's health minister


----------



## sags

The experts say they don't know about symptoms or vaccine protection yet.

In the article you posted a link to......

_While the spread of the new variant is still in its early stages, it is not yet clear how severe an infection would be to a vaccinated person._


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Relax boomers.
> The currently available *vaccines* against Covid-19 appear to be *effective against the newly detected Omicron* Covid variant, South Africa's health minister said. The new variant, known as B.1.1.529, has been detected in small numbers in South Africa. ...
> 
> Read more at: Covid vaccine effective against new Omicron variant: South Africa's health minister


 ... coming from "SA's" health minister ... what would you expect him to say? As if the sheep people (excluding the vaccine-regretters) would take his words as the "vaccine-expert" here.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... coming from "SA's" health minister ... what would you expect him to say? As if the sheep people (excluding the vaccine-regretters) would take his words as the "vaccine-expert" here.


I have no idea if the SA expert is lying or not. But until proven wrong he's more reliable than Fauci who has lied about virtually everything so far.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> I have no idea if the SA expert is lying or not. But until proven wrong *he's more reliable than Fauci who has lied about virtually everything so far.*


 ... if you say so. As far as I'm aware, Fauci is still head of NIAID and chief medical officer to the POTUS so obviously he's doing something right with the job.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... if you say so. As far as I'm aware, Fauci is still head of NIAID and chief medical officer to the POTUS so obviously he's doing something right with the job.


Dr Tam is still our head, as is Trudeau and they sure aren't doing much right.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Dr Tam is still our head, as is Trudeau and they sure aren't doing much right.


 ... hey, it is what it is. Mr. O'Toole as opposition leader is still trying to figure out how many members in his caucus is vaccinated or not. Or may he has for by now of which he's still trying to figure out how to let his unvaccinateds into Parliament. Ah, now that's what you call "progress" - 2 steps back to get 1 step forward, the party's cha-cha dance. And today is November 28, 2021 - almost 2 years in a pandemic.


----------



## Beaver101

Omicron response should focus on global vaccine equity, not travel bans: scientists

I think we should attempt these 2 researchers' focus by sending/giving/donating our supply of un-taken vaccines to SA (or any other poorers nations instead) and set a deadline of "no vax for you if not vaxxed at all", say by December 25, 2021 or the expiration of those vaccines, whichever is earlier.


----------



## KaeJS

MrMatt said:


> Dr Tam is still our head, as is Trudeau and they sure aren't doing much right.


You mean the woman who said to wear masks if you have sex?

🤣

Full blown clown world we are living in.

🤡🤯


----------



## MrMatt

KaeJS said:


> You mean the woman who said to wear masks if you have sex?


No, the Dr who said that there was no need for ordinary citizens to wear masks.


----------



## Beaver101

^^ You 2 are not sheep so why the concern of what comes out from Dr. Tam/Trudeau/theFed's mouth?


----------



## KaeJS

Beaver101 said:


> ^^ You 2 are not sheep so why the concern of what comes out from Dr. Tam/Trudeau/theFed's mouth?


No concern.
It's entertainment for me.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ^^ You 2 are not sheep so why the concern of what comes out from Dr. Tam/Trudeau/theFed's mouth?


Because they have the full force of government behind their idiocy.
Their actions have resulted in the death and serious harm to Canadians.
Imagine if Dr Tam told the truth that masks would help protect us?
Imagine if Trudeau didn't ship our emergency medical supplies off to China, leaving us with shortages?

I understand you might not care about your fellow Canadians, but I sure do.


----------



## sags

Isn't there a conspiracy thread for you guys to hang out in ?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Tada 
Lauren Pelley

@LaurenPelley
NEW: Ontario has confirmed two cases of the #Omicron variant in Ottawa, both of which were individuals with recent travel from Nigeria.


----------



## Beaver101

KaeJS said:


> No concern.
> It's entertainment for me.


 .. ok, makes sense in your case.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Because they have the full force of government behind their idiocy.
> Their actions have resulted in the death and serious harm to Canadians.
> Imagine if Dr Tam told the truth that masks would help protect us?
> Imagine if Trudeau didn't ship our emergency medical supplies off to China, leaving us with shortages?
> 
> *I understand you might not care about your fellow Canadians, but I sure do.*


 ... really? Like you "seriously", "genuinely", "sincerely", "truly", "honestly"... "care". 

For one, you won't even give your employee an effing 30 minutes of personal time to eat in a restaurant without having to nit-pick that it's "company's" time. Reminder, it ain't "your" company - you're merely a statistical brain-washed clog with the luck of "managing" there aka a potential practicing bully.


----------



## Beaver101

Vegan who refused vaccine because of animal testing dies of Covid

Just saw this, any anti-vaccine supporter here gonna cry for this guy? His belief (in this case veganism) led to his demise ... kinda late to be begging for a vaccine in his case as sad as it is.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Isn't there a conspiracy thread for you guys to hang out in ?


 ... MrMatt's post #5308 confirms he either hangs out in one or is a member of a Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde club.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Tada
> Lauren Pelley
> @LaurenPelley
> NEW: Ontario has confirmed two cases of the #Omicron variant in Ottawa, both of which were individuals with recent travel from Nigeria.


 ... so what do you advise its citizens do in the meantime? Glue their eyes on Twitter whilst picking their nose going Tada, doing nothing else?! LMAO.

Two Ontarians who returned from Nigeria test positive for omicron COVID-19 variant



> ..._ What Ontario needs to do, Bogoch said, is to ramp up testing, expanding vaccinations, especially making third doses more widely available to the eligible population.
> 
> He also added that public health measures in place need to remain.
> 
> When asked if the federal government should implement more travel restrictions, Bogoch said those policies are not effective.
> 
> "I appreciate that there's an urgent need to do something. There's an urgent need to appear that we're doing something meaningful. But you know, once you have a transmissible viral infection, that's well beyond those particular borders," he said.
> 
> As for what is needed to be done to prevent the emergence of new variants, Bogoch said more vaccines should be sent to countries struggling to access them.
> 
> "I think we need a tremendous global push to enable access to vaccines in parts of the world that don't have access to them or to the same extent that we do," he said.
> 
> "And on top of that, to ensure that programs are supported such that such that those needles go into the arms."_


 ... I agree with Dr. Bogoch ... send those extra vaccines from the refusers (aka non-sheep undecided vazzzzers) to countries that currently don't have access to them. This might slow down or eliminate the virus mutations.


----------



## KaeJS

sags said:


> Isn't there a conspiracy thread for you guys to hang out in ?


I wish there was.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> Vegan who refused vaccine because of animal testing dies of Covid
> 
> Just saw this, any anti-vaccine supporter here gonna cry for this guy? His belief (in this case veganism) led to his demise ... kinda late to be begging for a vaccine in his case as sad as it is.


And yet I bet you couldn't care less about those who died from the shot.


----------



## damian13ster

HappilyRetired said:


> I didn't say the vaccinated were as likely to spread the virus. I said that they CAN spread the virus.
> 
> I also said that if you're unvaccinated but test negative you can't spread the virus. That's still true.


Yep, most of vaccinated now are 80% as likely to spread as the unvaccinated. And that was before Omicron


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> Vegan who refused vaccine because of animal testing dies of Covid
> 
> Just saw this, any anti-vaccine supporter here gonna cry for this guy? His belief (in this case veganism) led to his demise ... kinda late to be begging for a vaccine in his case as sad as it is.











Fully vaccinated man dies from COVID-19 after month in hospital


In the wake of her loss, his wife is reminding everyone to stay on guard during the pandemic, regardless of their vaccination status.




www.whsv.com





What led to this guy's demise?


----------



## KaeJS

damian13ster said:


> Fully vaccinated man dies from COVID-19 after month in hospital
> 
> 
> In the wake of her loss, his wife is reminding everyone to stay on guard during the pandemic, regardless of their vaccination status.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.whsv.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What led to this guy's demise?


Sad. Truly.

But some people are not willing to wake up.

It is unfortunate that he died. But it is also obvious that the vaccine is not all it is cracked up to be. Some people, for whatever reason, refuse to acknowledge this.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... really? Like you "seriously", "genuinely", "sincerely", "truly", "honestly"... "care".
> 
> For one, you won't even give your employee an effing 30 minutes of personal time to eat in a restaurant without having to nit-pick that it's "company's" time. Reminder, it ain't "your" company - you're merely a statistical brain-washed clog with the luck of "managing" there aka a potential practicing bully.


Huh?
Everyone always got all their lunch breaks, and unless there was a reason I never had trouble with giving people additional breaks, or time off that they needed.

I simply never committed fraud, by billing for time that wasn't actually worked.
That's what it is when you bill for hours you didn't work. 

So you are actually going to claim that I don't care because I didn't encourage my staff to commit fraud?
You're really nuts.


----------



## sags

Okay........let's settle this and move on.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... really? Like you "seriously", "genuinely", "sincerely", "truly", "honestly"... "care".
> 
> For one, you won't even give your employee an effing 30 minutes of personal time to eat in a restaurant without having to nit-pick that it's "company's" time. Reminder, it ain't "your" company - you're merely a statistical brain-washed clog with the luck of "managing" there aka a potential practicing bully.


Take a deep breath. You'll be fine. You're getting mad about something that is a non issue.

Lunch breaks are unpaid. I don't know anyone who gets paid lunch breaks and that includes government employees who seem to get every benefit in existence. Who gave you the silly idea that lunch breaks should be paid personal time?


----------



## sags

I got paid, but only got a 20 minute lunch.

Our son works construction and gets paid for lunch whenever he wants to take it.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> And yet I bet you couldn't care less about those who died from the shot.


 ... like you care and I don't even have to make a bet on it.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Isn't there a conspiracy thread for you guys to hang out in ?


 ... there's one for anti-vaxxers call Druthers. I haven't confirmed plus no interest in snooping in its filths, particularly the so-called "rights supporters of anti-vaxxers".


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Fully vaccinated man dies from COVID-19 after month in hospital
> 
> 
> In the wake of her loss, his wife is reminding everyone to stay on guard during the pandemic, regardless of their vaccination status.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.whsv.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What led to this guy's demise?


 ... you can read on your own, can't you? Likely the "veganism" did him in or he was so fat and obese. So much for the begging.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... like you care and I don't even have to make a bet on it.


My mother-in-law became ill immediately after getting the shot and hasn't been the same since. She had to move to assisted living. My nephew contracted myocarditis after the shot and had to quit the university track team and will have lifetime heart issues for the rest of his life, however long or short that is.

And yet you claim to know that I don't care about people negatively affected by the shot?


----------



## sags

Wow.........2 out of hundreds of millions of vaccinations and you knew them both. What are the odds on that ?


----------



## damian13ster

Those are not as uncommon as you think. Don't be a condescending ******* and people will open up to you and share their stories.
Coworker also had 3 family members hospitalized. Seems like certain genetic predispositions made them more susceptible.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Huh?
> Everyone always got all their lunch breaks, and unless there was a reason I never had trouble with giving people additional breaks, or time off that they needed.
> 
> I simply never committed fraud, by billing for time that wasn't actually worked.
> That's what it is when you bill for hours you didn't work.
> 
> So you are actually going to claim that I don't care because I didn't encourage my staff to commit fraud?
> You're really nuts.


 ... now you're claiming your (no, it's "the" if even one) employee was "committing fraud" with the extra 30 minutes going to the restaurant because he wasn't working and using company time that wasn't approved by "you". How nice of words by a twist-o-matic. Nowhere in your earlier long winded posts in a long winded thread did you say (at anytime) "he wasn't allowed to bill that 30 minutes" or "he wasn't paid then as it wasn't "approved" by you". Ie. do it and don't pay him if it is what it is. Instead, you just whine there he was using company's time and biling for it - and who the hells know if it actually true other than "you", as a "caring manager" who likes to 1. micro-manage, 2. likely playing favouritsm if not being "selective", and 3. BS all the time to save his own axx. Hey, I get it - it comes with the job as "manager". There're managers who cares like you - you like to encourage staff to use "hand-sanitizers" and announces "free-coffee for everyone who comes into the office" ... all available because of "me", the "boss". OK with me. I'm sure your staff loves you 'cause you got it all intact.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> Wow.........2 out of hundreds of millions of vaccinations and you knew them both. What are the odds on that ?


You only think there's 2? Myocarditis cases are through the roof and there are thousands of vaccine related deaths in the US and Canada.


----------



## sags

There is no data that shows an increase in any aliments due to vaccines.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> There is no data that shows an increase in any aliments due to vaccines.


Yes there is. This is what the CDC says:

"Since April 2021, increased cases of myocarditis and pericarditis have been reported in the United States after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna), particularly in adolescents and young adults."

Clinical Considerations: Myocarditis after mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines | CDC


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> There is no data that shows an increase in any aliments due to vaccines.


Of course. All about classification. You think any of the 3 members of my coworker's family were classified as 'due to vaccine'?
No - simply heart enlargement, myocarditis. All 3 of them within a week of getting second dose. But medical records show inflammation, heart enlargement, myocarditis, and not adverse reaction to the vaccine.
Doctors were literally barred from giving exemptions if not under chemo. That tells you all about legitimacy of the classifications


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Take a deep breath. You'll be fine. You're getting mad about something that is a non issue.


 ... not getting mad. Just trying to make a point of people who likes to accuse first and then explain later.



> Lunch breaks are unpaid. I don't know anyone who gets paid lunch breaks and that includes government employees who seem to get every benefit in existence.


 ... BS, lunch breaks and even coffee breaks are paid or you're not "clocked-out" for it as a salaried employee. I got paid for an "hour" lunch (aka "eating food) along with all the (extra) time on top of that to line up at the bank. Plus as many coffee breaks I wanted. Just as long as my work was done in the allotted time.

If the company was to complain about the time taken, then I would have to ask why do I need to answer emails after company business hours like 7 pm or 7 am or the "expectation to go the extra-mile" for "extra-curricular" activities like side-projects, picking up someone else's slack, etc?

A company with "intelligent" management do not nit-pick on salaried employees' time. This is not to say my company's policy is the same for "hourly-paid" employees nor "contract-employees" elsewhere for which I have never been one. But then see sags' post, even he got paid for lunch and I'm certain he knows quite a few "hourly-paid" employees getting paid for lunch plus coffee/smoke breaks.



> Who gave you the silly idea that lunch breaks should be paid personal time?


 ... you might want to ask yourself that question "who gave you the silly idea that lunch breaks should be counted as "personal" time" and not to be paid". See who likes to work for you.

*BTW:* I'm still waiting for the answer to my question to you earlier "which province does not have legislation for a minimum # days of sick leave" as I'm not aware but you do. The answer shouldn't be hard nor does it need to be "written up or expanded on". 

Just the name or even the abbreviation of the province/territory will do.


----------



## sags

It is expected that with hundreds of millions of people getting vaccinated, they will exhibit the same ailments that existed before the vaccines.


----------



## HappilyRetired

So you know a couple people who get "paid" lunches. Those who don't get paid lunches far outnumber those who so. But if you think that being on salary means you get a paid lunch then you're fooling yourself, especially when you're working after hours for free on your time.

When I was working I knew where I stood. If I was required to put in 8 hours I could work 7:00 - 3:30 with a half hour unpaid lunch. Or I could work 7:00 - 4:00 and take an hour for lunch (depending on company requirements and allowing for some flexibility). Coffee breaks were always paid as required by law.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> It is expected that with hundreds of millions of people getting vaccinated, they will exhibit the same ailments that existed before the vaccines.


And some will contract ailments from the vaccine that never existed before.


----------



## HappilyRetired

What are the odds that 10 years from now there will be lawsuit commercials on TV: "If you took XX vaccine between the years of 2020 and 2022 you might be entitled to some compensation"?


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> It is expected that with hundreds of millions of people getting vaccinated, they will exhibit the same ailments that existed before the vaccines.


Of course. It is despicable though that with 3/3 family members hospitalized from vaccine, the rest of the family sharing the same genes can't get exemption. 
It is despicable that after getting hospitalized from the first dose, you are not exempt from second one.
That's just pure evil


----------



## HappilyRetired

The wife of one of my golf buddies has had a mild case of Bells Palsy her entire life. Bells Palsy is also known side effect from the shot. After the first shot it became worse and she underwent some testing. Her doctor told her that she might be eligible for an exemption but she still wants to get the shot.

It's her choice but she's so scared of Covid that she's willing to risk her long term health for a shot that is very likely to affect her again that might only last a few months.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> So you know a couple people who get "paid" lunches.


 ... a couple? All the companies I worked for had 500+ employees as in "five hundred or more employees" in each company.



> Those who don't get paid lunches far outnumber those who so.


 ...maybe since you know them. But I don't.



> But if you think that being on salary means you get a paid lunch then you're fooling yourself, especially when you're working after hours for free on your time.


 ... I don't disagree if I had to account that by the "minutes" as your industry/occupation needs to (whatever that maybe). But you don't need to be a stickler for that (or your version I'm fooling myself on the free lunch with the free-after-hours work).

Actually you reminded me of a manager who was like that- he was so ahead of himself trying to impress "his boss" with his "ingenius" idea of for the "ultimate-productivity" tool (only he knows what it is exactly) that he had all his salaried staff "account for their workday down to the "minutes"".

Yes, minutes for the entire work-week! For the entire month, for 3 months, as a start! All needed to be recorded on "paper" - we didn't have apps then but then I don't think the company had intelligent IT people to begin with anyways.

Do you know how much time was spent/needed to record every minute of your movements or "how you spend your time at work for the day" even you start from 9 am and end at 5 pm? E.g. 9 am - went to TH to get coffee, took 10 minutes. 9:10 am back at desk and started reviewing the files (excluded the time to turn on the computer which was at 8:30 am) ... and on and on and on and on and on ... ad nauseum. See how productive that was! 6 hours of actual work condensed to 4 hours 'cause the extra 2 hours (included 30 minutes in the bathroom for barfing and doing whatever) was spent on his brilliant idea. And guess what (not who) benefited from that "ultimate" productivity brain-hared idea = the recyling bin.



> When I was working I knew where I stood. If I was required to put in 8 hours I could work 7:00 - 3:30 with a half hour unpaid lunch. Or I could work 7:00 - 4:00 and take an hour for lunch (depending on company requirements and allowing for some flexibility). Coffee breaks were always paid as required by law.


 ... well, that's your company's policy and I stated mine's. You pick where you want to work under what conditions.

It's a free country here with "employment is at will". I can't help someone who is well-educated if they don't want to know or review their rights under the labour laws. Nor will I keep my mouth shut knowing what I know now. 

I can see the (extreme) difficulty for an immigrant or someone who just came to this country or someone desperate for a job (whatever reason), bound to be abused by the perfectly-educateds too.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> What are the odds that 10 years from now there will be lawsuit commercials on TV: "If you took XX vaccine between the years of 2020 and 2022 you might be entitled to some compensation"?


 ... 100% attempt for the litigious country, USA with Canada to follow via class-actions. 

My question is "what are the odds of winning such lawsuit for the litigants"? Plus if you're super-duper lucky to win, what are the compensation amounts? Remember when you took the vaccine, you signed a waiver.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> My mother-in-law became ill immediately after getting the shot and hasn't been the same since. She had to move to assisted living. My nephew contracted myocarditis after the shot and had to quit the university track team and will have lifetime heart issues for the rest of his life, however long or short that is.
> 
> And yet you claim to know that I don't care about people negatively affected by the shot?


 ... you didn't state that that at the beginning did you so how do I know if you "personally" cared or not as I can't read your mind.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... you didn't state that that at the beginning did you so how do I know if you "personally" cared or not as I can't read your mind.


That's why you shouldn't make assumptions


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> And some will contract ailments from the vaccine that never existed before.


 ... true but what are the odds/how many? It's a chance everyone has to take. 

It's either take the vaccine to help prevent hospitalizations or severe illness on the basis you have your trust with the vaccine manufacturers' data in regards to its safety (1 in few millions tested) or don't take the vaccine since you've zero trust there and then deal with Covid when do get hit. Plus deal with what the rest of society requires (mandates, testings, isolation, social-distancing from family, friends, etc.) in the meantime.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> That's why you shouldn't make assumptions


 ... I would think that includes you too, no?


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... true but what are the odds/how many? It's a chance everyone has to take.
> 
> It's either take the vaccine to help prevent hospitalizations or severe illness on the basis you have your trust with the vaccine manufacturers' data in regards to its safety (1 in few millions tested) or don't take the vaccine since you've zero trust there and then deal with Covid when do get hit. Plus deal with what the rest of society requires (mandates, testings, isolation, social-distancing from family, friends, etc.) in the meantime.


How come we aren't told the risk? What are they hiding and why?

Why would you trust big Pharma? Their track record is pretty bad. Healthy young males are being told to take a shot that has a higher risk (according to many reports) to them than the virus. No one should be forced to take that chance.

At risk people should protect themselves and let healthy young people live their lives.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> How come we aren't told the risk? What are they hiding and why?
> 
> Why would you trust big Pharma? Their track record is pretty bad. Healthy young males are being told to take a shot that has a higher risk (according to many reports) to them than the virus. No one should be forced to take that chance.
> 
> At risk people should protect themselves and let healthy young people live their lives.


 ... you're either going in circles or behind the times here. Not going into a winded post with you "to win a debate" as other poster said. 

As said, take it or leave it ... your decision/choice. End of story.


----------



## Beaver101

*Warning: *The following news update is not for Ontario's "non-sheep still-undecided-vaxxers & their supporters and/or vaccine-regretters" so close your eyes and cover your ears!

Ontario will have 'more to say later this week' on expanding third dose eligibility, health minister promises

_



Last Updated Monday, November 29, 2021 1:19PM EST

Health Minister Christine Elliott says that the Ontario government is considering expanding third dose eligibility to more age groups amid concerns about the new Omicron variant and will have “more to say later this week.” 

Ontario’s current guidelines limit third dose eligibility to a handful of groups making up about 20 per cent of the province’s population, including those over 70, people who received two doses of the Astra Zeneca vaccine, immunocompromised individuals, Indigenous Ontarians and residents in long-term care and retirement homes.

Click to expand...

 ... _

*summary of above response*: A "No, not now" but "A Yes or let me further think about it" on the booster (3rd) shot for the below age 70s and various eligible groups as per above from Ms. Elliott, Ontario's MOH.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... you're either going in circles or behind the times here. Not going into a winded post with you "to win a debate" as other poster said.
> 
> As said, take it or leave it ... your decision/choice. End of story.


Yup, take it and risk a serious health issue or death. Don't take it and you can't work or participate in society. It's not about winning a debate, it's about people's rights.

I've never seen so many people so willing to give up their freedom so quickly for a virus that has a 99.95 survival rate for healthy people under 60.

What right are you willing to give up next? If (most likely when) the vaccine card becomes a social credit or carbon card will you willingly bend over and take it?


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Yup, take it and risk a serious health issue or death. Don't take it and you can't work or participate in society. It's not about winning a debate, it's about people's rights.
> 
> I've never seen so many people so willing to give up their freedom so quickly for a virus that has a *99.95 survival rate for healthy people under 60*.


 ... tell that to a healthy person dead-from Covid that.



> What right are you willing to give up next? If (most likely when) the vaccine card becomes a social credit or carbon card will you willingly bend over and take it?


 ... do you have a choice if it becomes the law? No need to bend over - just pay the fine or go to jail depending on the consequences of flaunting the law. Still your choice.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... tell that to a healthy person dead-from Covid that.


What do you say to the families of those who have died from the shot? "Sorry that your 21 year old son died but I'm too scared to venture out of my house even though I've been vaccinated and have an N-95 mask. But I hope you understand that my mostly unfounded fears are more important than your son's life."


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> What do you say to the families of those who have died from the shot? "Sorry that your 21 year old son died but I'm too scared to venture out of my house even though I've been vaccinated and have an N-95 mask. But I hope you understand that my mostly unfounded fears are more important than your son's life."


 ... give me a break. Surely you can come up with something better than that sad story attached with an insult. Heard plenty of the same already from your other buddies (aka of same mentality) on this forum.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... BS, lunch breaks and even coffee breaks are paid or you're not "clocked-out" for it as a salaried employee. I got paid for an "hour" lunch (aka "eating food) along with all the (extra) time on top of that to line up at the bank. Plus as many coffee breaks I wanted. Just as long as my work was done in the allotted time.


But there is nothing unreasonable about only paying people for the hours they work.
If they work 4 hours you pay them for 4 hours, if they work 8 hours you pay them for 8 hours.

I don't know what you mean about "clocked out" I don't see that in any of the Ontario labour laws.




> ... you might want to ask yourself that question "who gave you the silly idea that lunch breaks should be counted as "personal" time" and not to be paid". See who likes to work for you.


Ontario labour law "gave me that idea". 





Hours of work | Your guide to the Employment Standards Act


Know your rights and obligations under the Employment Standards Act (ESA). This guide describes the rules about minimum wage, hours of work limits, termination of employment, public holidays, pregnancy and parental leave, severance pay, vacation and more.




www.labour.gov.on.ca





"Eating periods are unpaid unless the employee's employment contract requires payment. "
"Time taken for eating periods is not considered to be working time for the purposes of determining the daily and weekly limits on hours of work;"

Where did you get the idea that you should get paid for lunch breaks?




> *BTW:* I'm still waiting for the answer to my question to you earlier "which province does not have legislation for a minimum # days of sick leave" as I'm not aware but you do.


That question is unrelated to any claim or statement I've made, I don't feel any obligation to research it for you, if you want to know the answer, ask someone who made that claim to substantiate it, or go do the research itself. I'm not doing your homework for you.


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> What are the odds that 10 years from now there will be lawsuit commercials on TV: "If you took XX vaccine between the years of 2020 and 2022 you might be entitled to some compensation"?


Corporate suits, nil
They've been granted immunity.

Canada already has a fund for this.




__





Vaccine Injury Support Program


A program for people in Canada who have experienced a severe and permanent injury as a result of receiving a Health Canada authorized vaccine.




vaccineinjurysupport.ca





You'll likely need a lawsuit to get money out of the government though.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

HappilyRetired said:


> Yup, take it and risk a serious health issue or death. Don't take it and you can't work or participate in society. It's not about winning a debate, it's about people's rights.
> 
> I've never seen so many people so willing to give up their freedom so quickly for a virus that has a 99.95 survival rate for healthy people under 60.
> 
> What right are you willing to give up next? If (most likely when) the vaccine card becomes a social credit or carbon card will you willingly bend over and take it?


Should you get COVID and require medical attention (knock on wood as I do not wish that to anyone), who will you turn to or trust to cure you?

Is there some underground medical organization that has its own YouTube experts that takes antivaxer patients?


----------



## HappilyRetired

Mortgage u/w said:


> Should you get COVID and require medical attention (knock on wood as I do not wish that to anyone), who will you turn to or trust to cure you?
> 
> Is there some underground medical organization that has its own YouTube experts that takes antivaxer patients?


The replies keep getting more and more ridiculous.

People hesitant about ONE brand new and unproven (no long history) vaccine but take every other one are not anti-vax.

And now many people are suggesting (not you, or are you?) that if someone who didn't take the shot should be denied medical treatment if they get Covid. Let's not stop there, obese people should be denied treatment if they get a heart attack. Smokers should be refused treatment, too. And let's not forget weak people who trip and fall and break bones. How dare they use up medical resource because they're too lazy!!


----------



## Mortgage u/w

HappilyRetired said:


> The replies keep getting more and more ridiculous.
> 
> People hesitant about ONE brand new and unproven (no long history) vaccine but take every other one are not anti-vax.
> 
> And now many people are suggesting (not you, or are you?) that if someone who didn't take the shot should be denied medical treatment if they get Covid. Let's not stop there, obese people should be denied treatment if they get a heart attack. Smokers should be refused treatment, too. And let's not forget weak people who trip and fall and break bones. How dare they use up medical resource because they're too lazy!!


how long does a vaccine need to be tested to be deemed ‘safe’?
Who should determine the length of time? 

i am not suggesting that the unvaxed be denied treatememt. I am simply alluding that if we shouldn’t trust the medical experts to take a covid vaccine, should we trust them to cure us if infected?


----------



## sags

Over 60% of the voters in Sweden voted for more restrictive measures.

Everybody gets their day in court, but eventually the judge has heard enough and puts an end to discussions.

I think the public has heard enough from the anti-vaxxers.

The anti-vaxxers voiced their opinion. People listened, considered, and rejected their views.

The debate is over. The anti-vaxxers should go away now.


----------



## damian13ster

You mean Switzerland?
And they didn't vote for more restrictive measures.
They voted against forcing government to get rid of all measures.

I think the public heard enough of your lies.

You should go away


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Toddlers Make Up 10% of Hospital Cases in Omicron Epicenter*










Children under the age of 2 account for about 10% of total hospital admissions in the omicron epicenter Tshwane in South Africa, according to the National Institute for Communicable Diseases.








Toddlers Make Up 10% of Hospital Cases in Omicron Epicenter


Children under the age of 2 account for about 10% of total hospital admissions in the omicron epicenter Tshwane in South Africa, according to the National Institute for Communicable Diseases.




www.bloomberg.com





South Africa has recorded a sharp increase in coronavirus cases, including among children under 2 years old, a top epidemiologist said Monday, as the country reckons with the consequences of being among the first to report the omicron variant of the coronavirus.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/11/29/south-africa-omicron-fourth-wave-vaccine/




Time to start vaccinate toddlers.


----------



## james4beach

Now is the time to make sure you are protecting yourself with multiple layers, such as masks around other people, and minimizing social gatherings and indoor group activities.

If you're hanging out with people indoors, these should be SMALL groups of people you know, and not large parties.

Don't assume that vaccines will offer significant protection from omicron. Here are today's statements from the CEO of Moderna:

​Stephane Bancel, chief executive of the pharma firm, said: “There is no world, I think, where the effectiveness is the same level . . .we had with the Delta variant.​​“*I think it’s going to be a material drop. I just don’t know how much because we need to wait for the data. But all the scientists I’ve talked to . . . are like, ‘This is not going to be good’.*”​​
I've been saying for some time that people are putting too much faith in the vaccines. _They don't make you invincible_. You need to always be careful, wear a mask, and avoid large gatherings. Probably also smart to avoid indoor restaurants and you're absolutely crazy if you're going to bars these days.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I've been saying for some time that people are putting too much faith in the vaccines. _They don't make you invincible_. You need to always be careful, wear a mask, and avoid large gatherings. Probably also smart to avoid indoor restaurants and you're absolutely crazy if you're going to bars these days.


This is what the competent experts have been saying since spring 2020.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> This is what the competent experts have been saying since spring 2020.


 ... hey, they got the jobs as "experts" whether you view them as competent or not. No different from you as manager, or as an expert in your field.

I get it, it's the always easier to blame someone else routine.

Just to make you feel better, it "happens to everyone, from top to bottom", only the top gets paid (way or too much in some cases) more should bear the brunt of it. Tada!


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Now is the time to make sure you are protecting yourself with multiple layers, such as masks around other people, and minimizing social gatherings and indoor group activities.
> 
> If you're hanging out with people indoors, these should be SMALL groups of people you know, and not large parties.
> 
> Don't assume that vaccines will offer significant protection from omicron. Here are today's statements from the CEO of *Moderna**:*
> 
> ​Stephane Bancel, chief executive of the pharma firm, said: “There is no world, I think, where the effectiveness is the same level . . .we had with the Delta variant.​​“*I think it’s going to be a material drop. I just don’t know how much because we need to wait for the data. But all the scientists I’ve talked to . . . are like, ‘This is not going to be good’.*”​​
> I've been saying for some time that people are putting too much faith in the vaccines. _They don't make you invincible_. You need to always be careful, wear a mask, and avoid large gatherings. Probably also smart to avoid indoor restaurants and you're absolutely crazy if you're going to bars these days.


 ... careful now with your post, non-sheep non vax believers and their supporters are going to claim big pharmas (like the one mentioned above) are 1. using scare tactics, 2. withholding/falsing data their vaccine safety data, and 3. self-promotion. 

As for your 2nd part, post #5635 is proof of a table-turning if not a spin-o-matic tactic.


----------



## Beaver101

Unvaccinated travellers barred from planes and trains as of today

As of today (November 30, 2021), no vaccine means no flying on planes or riding the trains. Silver lining is no test is required either! * With exceptions of course, as stated in the article.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Will those on social assistance have their benefits halted if they aren't vaccinated?


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Will those on social assistance have their benefits halted if they aren't vaccinated?


 ... no indication of that. But then why would the government ("current=Liberals") even consider that or is it just you exercising your daily trolling?


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... no indication of that. But then why would the government ("current=Liberals") even consider that or is it just you exercising your daily trolling?


I thought the goal was to get everyone to take the shot. I just pointed out a group that seems to have been overlooked.


----------



## damian13ster

Moderna CEO says COVID-19 vaccines may be less effective against Omicron variant - National | Globalnews.ca


The news set of fresh alarm bells in world financial markets by spurring fears that vaccine resistance could lead to more sickness and hospitalizations, prolonging the pandemic.




globalnews.ca





Perfect:
1. More virulent
2. Mild symptoms
3. Vaccines less effective.

Now just need 3 to become 'not effective'; hopefully next studies show that, and this is the perfect variant


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> I thought the goal was to get everyone to take the shot.


 ... that would be an ideal goal however, don't forget there're those who are legitimately (aka for medical reasons) exempt so realistically not "everyone" and practically unlikely "everyone" including those people in less fortunate countries.



> I just pointed out a group that seems to have been overlooked.


 ... then any more of them groups? By all means, point them out ... I can think of those on WSIB ... no vax, get off WSIB ... and then there's the homeless, no vax , no under the bridge living either. Right, and now then "basic" human "rights" are not a concern.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Moderna CEO says COVID-19 vaccines may be less effective against Omicron variant - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The news set of fresh alarm bells in world financial markets by spurring fears that vaccine resistance could lead to more sickness and hospitalizations, prolonging the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perfect:
> 1. More virulent
> 2. Mild symptoms
> 3. Vaccines less effective.
> 
> Now just need 3 to become 'not effective'; *hopefully next studies show that, and this is the perfect variant*


 ... so you wish. The vaccines are here to stay ... possibly "permanently". Now cover your ears. And the masks too so close your eyes also.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... then any more of them groups? By all means, point them out ... I can think of those on WSIB ... no vax, get off WSIB ... and then there's the homeless, no vax , no under the bridge living either. Right, and now then "basic" human "rights" are not a concern.


Now you're talking about human rights? What made you suddenly change your mind? Did my comment hit a little to close to home?


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... so you wish. The vaccines are here to stay ... possibly permanently. Now cover your ears.


Big Pharma would have it no other way. Their profits are through the roof. The worst case scenario for them would be a mild variant that kills no one and provides immunity. It's basically a free vaccine.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Now you're talking about human rights? What made you suddenly change your mind? Did my comment hit a little to close to home?


 ... nope. I didn't change my mind at all nor did I not take into the point of your post, hence, that's why I said "basic" human rights. The vaccine-mandate is based on societal rights which trumps over individual "basic" rights. And if you're using the Charter - I hate to tell you but you're behind the times but not too late to get off those consipracy or whatever BS theory forums ... that daminxxster is on too. I could be mistaken on that for the MJs he (and possibly you) are smoking or eating/taking instead.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Big Pharma would have it no other way. Their profits are through the roof. The worst case scenario for them would be a mild variant that kills no one and provides immunity. It's basically a free vaccine.


 ... and so? Would it make you happier that you, as a taxpayer (which you can voluntary opt out according to your type of rights) , are funding those "free vaccines"?


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... so you wish. The vaccines are here to stay ... possibly "permanently". Now cover your ears. And the masks too so close your eyes also.


Vaccines were always here. Not an issue.
Useless, ineffective vaccines don't tend to stay around for long though


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Vaccines were always here. Not an issue.
> Useless, ineffective vaccines don't tend to stay around for long though


 .. if you say so and wish for. 

Reminder (for the god know how many times): All vaccines are voluntary.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... and so? Would it make you happier that you, as a taxpayer (which you can voluntary opt out according to your type of rights) , are funding those "free vaccines"?


I'm not against funding vaccines. I also know that people can opt out, but many of them really can't if they want to work or participate in society.

You can call it voluntary if you want but it's only truly voluntary if it doesn't affect your ability to provide for your family.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> I'm not against funding vaccines.


 ... of course, you're not against it as if you have a choice here too.



> I also know that people can opt out, but many of them really can't if they want to work or participate in society.


 ... hey, I didn't come up with them "mandates" whether for work (I don't own the company) or participation in society (I don't run the government). And I hope you would think abit deeper to understand why the government came with the(m) mandates if you look at the overall picture. 



> You can call it voluntary if you want but it's only truly voluntary if it doesn't affect your ability to provide for your family.


 ... complain to the/your company and see what they say. Of course, it's not "truly" voluntary as if life is fair or equal for all that I always hear or get from the other side.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> .. complain to the/your company and see what they say. Of course, it's not "truly" voluntary as if life is fair or equal for all that I always hear or get from the other side.


You're equating taking people's rights away by saying life is not fair. You really don't get it, do you?

I'm curious....how many more of my rights are you willing to give up to feel safe?


----------



## damian13ster




----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> You're equating taking people's rights away by saying life is not fair. You really don't get it, do you?


 ... are you really serious with that question or asking to suit what you want to hear. Please do me a favour and re-review the basic rights under the Charter and you can understand what I'm trying to say for the "real-world" life.



> I'm curious....how many more of my rights are you willing to give up to feel safe?


 ... as many as you want.


----------



## Eder

I guess Pfizer doesn"t agree with Moderna on the variant.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465679760948973575


----------



## sags

Optimism is good, but not definitive. They simply don't know much about symptoms or vaccine efficacy yet.

It would be good news if the Omicron became the dominant virus and was less of a problem, but that scenario remains to be seen.

We also should not forget the Delta infections are spiking all over again.


----------



## Beaver101

Greece to mandate COVID-19 vaccination for over-60s



> ByThe Associated Press 30 November 2021
> 
> _ATHENS, Greece --* Residents in Greece over age 60 will be fined 100 euros (more than $110) a month if they fail to get vaccinated against the coronavirus, under the first general COVID-19 mandate announced by the country’s government.*
> 
> The measure was announced in response to a surge in cases and the emergence of the omicron variant. *It will come into effect on Jan. 16 with the fines to be added to their tax bills, Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis said in a televised announcement Tuesday. *_*.*..


 .. I guess Greece has an issue with their seniors using too much of the hospital resources. Or that their younger populations complaining too much about the inability to share on those resources or being burdened with paying for them.

Anyhow, I'm waiting to hear of implementation of Nazism, genocides by ageism ... etc. I wonder who is the next class category over there with the vaccine-mandate - young fat unvaxxed people?


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> .. if you say so and wish for.
> 
> Reminder (for the god know how many times): All vaccines are voluntary.


yes and some of the critics should look at the number of anti-vaxxers in ICUs. Don't let the obvious get in the way of your narrative.


----------



## zinfit

Ukrainiandude said:


> Nice.
> 
> The World Health Organization is monitoring a new variant with numerous mutations to the spike protein, scheduling a special meeting Friday to discuss what it may mean for vaccines and treatments, officials said Thursday.
> 
> The variant, called B.1.1.529, has been detected in South Africa in small numbers, according to the WHO.
> South African scientists have detected more than 30 mutations to the spike protein, the part of the virus that binds to cells in the body, South African scientist Tulio de Oliveira said in a media briefing hosted by the South Africa Department of Health on Thursday.
> 
> 
> The B.1.1.529 variant contains *multiple mutations associated with increased antibody resistance, which may reduce the effectiveness of vaccines, along with mutations that generally make it more contagious*, according to slides he presented at the briefing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHO calls special meeting to discuss new Covid variant found in South Africa with 'a large number of mutations'
> 
> 
> The World Health Organization is monitoring a new variant with numerous mutations to the spike protein, officials said Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> regardless let’s jab the kids and profit the big pharma who are financing the election campaigns. Win win for everyone involved.
> 
> but fear not my friends, I have a grand solution to this problem, send everyone home, print lots of money and give it to the people. Everyone is happy and healthy.


yes and who puts the food on the shelves and who works in the hospitals.


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> Greece to mandate COVID-19 vaccination for over-60s
> 
> .. I guess Greece has an issue with their seniors using too much of the hospital resources. Or that their younger populations complaining too much about the inability to share on those resources or being burdened with paying for them.
> 
> Anyhow, I'm waiting to hear of implementation of Nazism, genocides by ageism ... etc. I wonder who is the next class category over there with the vaccine-mandate - young fat unvaxxed people?


I don't think this is a totally bad idea... not the age part, but I would be okay with if someone in Canada is hospitalized with Covid and they are unvaccinated, they could be asked to pay a fee.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Plugging Along said:


> I don't think this is a totally bad idea... not the age part, but I would be okay with if someone in Canada is hospitalized with Covid and they are unvaccinated, they could be asked to pay a fee.


Do you want a fee applied to obese people who get heart attacks?


----------



## MK7GTI

Plugging Along said:


> I don't think this is a totally bad idea... not the age part, but I would be okay with if someone in Canada is hospitalized with Covid and they are unvaccinated, they could be asked to pay a fee.


What about the fat people who continually make poor decisions each day with food and not exercising only to have heart attacks, stroke, diabetes etc.?


----------



## sags

Bad thyroids.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> Bad thyroids.


Every one of them?


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> Bad thyroids.


They make meds for bad thyroids that are fully approved.


----------



## sags

Side effects.


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> You're equating taking people's rights away by saying life is not fair. You really don't get it, do you?
> 
> I'm curious....how many more of my rights are you willing to give up to feel safe?


They're willing to take away all your rights.
I almost completely disagree with the antivaxxers, except that it should be their choice.


----------



## sags

Jab them.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> Side effects.


The shot has side effects too


----------



## sags

Nothing serious.


----------



## sags

Segregate anti-vaxxers.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> Nothing serious.


Death is serious.


----------



## Money172375

HappilyRetired said:


> They make meds for bad thyroids that are fully approved.


How long have they been on the market? Who makes them? What are the ingredients? I’ll wait until more research is done. Lol


----------



## zinfit

HappilyRetired said:


> Do you want a fee applied to obese people who get heart attacks?


remember most of the anti-vaxxers don't believe in the health sciences . They could do everyone a favour by staying away from the hospitals and freeing up space for people who do.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> They're willing to take away all your rights.
> I almost completely disagree with the antivaxxers, except that it should be their choice.


are you still supporting a total closure of our borders? that is a significant interference in our rights.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> are you still supporting a total closure of our borders? that is a significant interference in our rights.


My position was somewhat more nuanced than that, but yes. I support a mandatory quarantine if you're traversing international borders.


----------



## Plugging Along

HappilyRetired said:


> Do you want a fee applied to obese people who get heart attacks?





MK7GTI said:


> What about the fat people who continually make poor decisions each day with food and not exercising only to have heart attacks, stroke, diabetes etc.?


If there are in the hospital for COVID AND are unvaccinated, AND are fat, then sure charge them more. Fine any idiot who is unvaccinated $100 (or whatever) and any idiot who is unvaccinated AND with a co-morbidity an extra $50 or whatever on top of the $100. If they spread it to someone, add another $200 for each person they infect too.

Now if someone who is obese can infect me into being obese or giving diabetes just by breathing the same air as me, then fine them too. 

I also I think drunk drivers should lose rights too and pay fines too when they impact others.


----------



## Synergy

Plugging Along said:


> Now if someone who is obese can infect me into being obese or giving diabetes just by breathing the same air as me, then fine them too.


They infect the world by other means - procreating. Using your thought process will open up Pandora's box.


----------



## sags

My sister used to eat a lot of candy. I nearly got second hand diabetes from her.


----------



## Synergy

sags said:


> My sister used to eat a lot of candy. I nearly got second hand diabetes from her.


Even worse, your sister clogged up up the health care system reducing care and life saving procedures for others.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Money172375 said:


> How long have they been on the market? Who makes them? What are the ingredients? I’ll wait until more research is done. Lol


Unlike the Covid shot thyroid meds have a decades long history of safety and effectiveness. How much more research do you really need if you were willing to take a shot that just came out less than a year ago?

Are you anti science?


----------



## HappilyRetired

Plugging Along said:


> If there are in the hospital for COVID AND are unvaccinated, AND are fat, then sure charge them more. Fine any idiot who is unvaccinated $100 (or whatever) and any idiot who is unvaccinated AND with a co-morbidity an extra $50 or whatever on top of the $100. If they spread it to someone, add another $200 for each person they infect too.
> 
> Now if someone who is obese can infect me into being obese or giving diabetes just by breathing the same air as me, then fine them too.
> 
> I also I think drunk drivers should lose rights too and pay fines too when they impact others.


So you're saying that it's okay for obese people to tie up hospital resources yet people with Covid don't get the same consideration even if they didn't infect you or anyone else?


----------



## Beaver101

sags, your responses starting from 5394 are short, sweet and effectively hilarious! ...  in tears. 

Add: Still LMAO.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> sags, your responses starting from 5394 are short, sweet and effectively hilarious! ...  in tears.


Flippant and inaccurate replies because he couldn't defend his position with facts. My mistake was playing along with the childlike behavior, I should have known that he can't debate facts.


----------



## MrMatt

MrMatt said:


> My position was somewhat more nuanced than that, but yes. I support a mandatory quarantine if you're traversing international borders.


Just to clarify, at this time I'm not sure such a measure is necessary, we have vaccinations widely available for most Canadians, and the treatment options are improving. 
We're no longer in the crisis mode when we were looking at 3%+ fatality rates. So while strict border restrictions were a good idea then, I'm not sure they're appropriate now.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Flippant and inaccurate replies because he couldn't defend his position with facts. My mistake was playing along with the childlike behavior, I should have known that he can't debate facts.


 ... has it ever occurred to you that sags (who joined this forum in the year 2010) is *tired* of having the need to a) defend his position, b) with "facts" of a long winded post, and c) especially to an insulting and defensive accuser like you who just came to this forum 17 days ago? And yes, I would agree it was your mistake to join this forum thinking everyone would be fooled into satisfying your continuous need to 1. debate, and 2. spoon-feeding you with "facts". [Just so you don't feel bad, you're not the only one who acts like this on this forum.]

*BTW,* I'm still waiting for the answer "which province/territory does not have a legislated minimum of sick days leave for its employees", to confirm your previous claim that a/some companies (in Canada) don't even offer a minimum. This should be a simple pre-educated fact.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... has it ever occurred to you that sags (who joined this forum in the year 2010) is *tired* of having the need to a) defend his position, b) with "facts" of a long winded post, and c) especially to an insulting and defensive accuser like you who just came to this forum 17 days ago? And yes, I would agree it was your mistake to join this forum thinking everyone would be fooled into satisfying your continuous need to 1. debate, and 2. spoon-feeding you with "facts". [Just so you don't feel bad, you're not the only one who acts like this on this forum.]
> 
> *BTW,* I'm still waiting for the answer "which province/territory does not have a legislated minimum of sick days leave for its employees", to confirm your previous claim that a/some companies (in Canada) don't even offer a minimum. This should be a simple pre-educated fact.


I've been on this forum for years as well. I put Sags on ignore again because he likes to post nonsense without facts to back it up.

Just like you like to make up stuff, and call people names, without facts or evidence to support your position.

When you make a ridiculous claim, and someone asks you to support it with a reference, that isn't being asked to be spoon fed, it's part of a normal discussion.

Regarding your BTW, you've asked this question of at least 2 people. Who actually claimed that a Canadian jurisdiction doesn't offer a minimum number of sick days. 
It looks like they all offer some sick leave.








Sick Leave Across Canada | Canadian Labour Congress


Rules around sick leave differ across Canada and legislative changes are happening quickly. These are the most up-to-date numbers. Canada’s unions have called on the provincial, territorial and federal governments to provide immediate income supports to workers affected by COVID-19 quarantine...




canadianlabour.ca





Secondly not all employees are entitled to sick leave anyway.


https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-act-0/sick-leave#section-6


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... has it ever occurred to you that sags (who joined this forum in the year 2010) is *tired* of having the need to a) defend his position, b) with "facts" of a long winded post, and c) especially to an insulting and defensive accuser like you who just came to this forum 17 days ago? And yes, I would agree it was your mistake to join this forum thinking everyone would be fooled into satisfying your continuous need to 1. debate, and 2. spoon-feeding you with "facts". [Just so you don't feel bad, you're not the only one who acts like this on this forum.]
> 
> *BTW,* I'm still waiting for the answer "which province/territory does not have a legislated minimum of sick days leave for its employees", to confirm your previous claim that a/some companies (in Canada) don't even offer a minimum. This should be a simple pre-educated fact.


Length of time on a board doesn't make someone correct on issues. Matt stated you both make stuff up and call people names. I agree, you both have insulted me because I pointed out flaws in your reasoning and have pointed out when you were wrong.

For example, the topic was paid sick leave, not unpaid sick leave. In fact, the topic title says "paid sick leave". I said that some companies do not offer PAID sick leave. That's a fact. Yet you're claiming that I said something else.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I've been on this forum for years as well. I put Sags on ignore again because he likes to post nonsense without facts to back it up.
> 
> Just like you like to make up stuff, and call people names, without facts or evidence to support your position.


 ... like you don't make things up because you're a master of twisting stuff or mincing words or going around in circles or beating around the bush in disguise of providing "facts and evidence" in need to "support" "your" position or point of view. This is your usual modus operandi of which I have seen enough of in real life. That's why _you_ specifically get called a spin-o-matic if not twist-o-matic, table-turner, et al. Do you need me continuously call you that or you can also put me on ignore. Besides, where the hell on this forum did it require a support of facts, data, blah blah blah or was it you and your ilks who continue to spewing that requirement? Just like you own this forum.



> When you make a ridiculous claim, and someone asks you to support it with a reference, that isn't being asked to be spoon fed, it's part of a normal discussion.


 ... perhaps not applicable to you but it's to HappilyRetired. And what normal discussion was happening there with him accusing sags (and indirectly to me) to "debate" on his/my "childish but truthful" reply to him? Ah, shouldn't he be sticking his nose somewhere else as he once told me to? Talk about the nonsense you're not spewing. Again, you and anyone can choose to ignore me. And tell everyone else to your liking to ignore me too ... so clever. LMAO. 



> Regarding your BTW, you've asked this question of at least 2 people. Who actually claimed that a Canadian jurisdiction doesn't offer a minimum number of sick days.
> It looks like they all offer some sick leave.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sick Leave Across Canada | Canadian Labour Congress
> 
> 
> Rules around sick leave differ across Canada and legislative changes are happening quickly. These are the most up-to-date numbers. Canada’s unions have called on the provincial, territorial and federal governments to provide immediate income supports to workers affected by COVID-19 quarantine...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> canadianlabour.ca


 ... HappilyRetired, that's "who". IIRC, I asked him _twice as in 2 times_ already and he never gave me a response 'cause that was his "claim" that there're companies that don't offer mandated sick leave, never mind about the pay next.



> Secondly not all employees are entitled to sick leave anyway.
> 
> 
> https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-act-0/sick-leave#section-6


 ... I'll check on this but only "common sense" tells me the employer would be paying legislated sick leave, if they value their employees back. Just like you do as a manager.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Length of time on a board doesn't make someone correct on issues. Matt stated you both make stuff up and call people names. I agree, you both have insulted me because I pointed out flaws in your reasoning and have pointed out when you were wrong.


 ....ah, there's the confession. The need to be "right" so that's a basis for insulting and calling people names. And now learning to use the table-turning tactic from MrMatt, accusing me of calling people names and insulting.

Let me put it this way, I don't call people names first without them calling me one first nor would I be the first one to go insulting people like you claim. Of course length of time on this board doesn't correct issues you would like to hear ... don't worry you get your chance to grow a thick skin on this board in said enough time. You're still a looooonnng way off with plenty of time to draft up pages and pages of posts with a need for facts, data, blah, blah, blah, your own 9 yards of self-made requirements so that you can "debate" to be "right" or in MrMatt's case the accusation of to "win".

Again, you can put me ignore or better yet follow MrMatt's lesson to tell everyone else to put me on ignore just like for sags if you don't want to read nor answer my/his posts because they do not back up your views. I'm not stopping you



> For example, the topic was paid sick leave, not unpaid sick leave. In fact, the topic title says "paid sick leave". I said that some companies do not offer PAID sick leave. That's a fact. Yet you're claiming that I said something else.


 ... so what's the difference between "unpaid sick leave" versus your claim that (some) companies do not "pay sick leave" other than playing around with words? Hereyou go again, saying "some companies do not offer PAID sick leave". I asked which province/territory that legislate against paying sick leave (reworded in case you still don't understand the question). I'm still waiting for the answer. It's been several days that you came up with some baloney answer after MrMatt interjected. I guess you don't mind him replying on your behalf here either.


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> If there are in the hospital for COVID AND are unvaccinated, AND are fat, then sure charge them more. Fine any idiot who is unvaccinated $100 (or whatever) and any idiot who is unvaccinated AND with a co-morbidity an extra $50 or whatever on top of the $100. If they spread it to someone, add another $200 for each person they infect too.
> 
> Now if someone who is obese can infect me into being obese or giving diabetes just by breathing the same air as me, then fine them too.
> 
> I also I think drunk drivers should lose rights too and pay fines too when they impact others.


 ... $100 fine for the unvaxxeds is waaaay too cheap along with a $50 top up for a co-morbidity to treat a Covid patient in ICU. The "real" price tag to treat a Covid patient is in the thousands of dollars mainly because of their length of stay required to get well (like a month or 2?) provided they're lucky enough.... to go home eventually.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... so what's the difference between "unpaid sick leave" versus your claim that (some) companies do not "pay sick leave" other than playing around with words?


Paid sick leave is when you get paid sick days. Unpaid sick leave means that you don't get paid for sick days. That's not playing with words, that's stating a fact.,


----------



## Plugging Along

HappilyRetired said:


> So you're saying that it's okay for obese people to tie up hospital resources yet people with Covid don't get the same consideration even if they didn't infect you or anyone else?


No, that's not what I said. 
This is all about the definition of what the problem that requires solving, the objectives, urgency, and availability and ability to implement solutions (among a few other things)

The problem that needs to be addresses is how to we prevent our health care system from being overwhelmed from hospitalization from COVID
- Why do I specify COVID and not drunk drivers, obesity, diabetes etc? Hospital systems are designed to be able to manage the 'normal' load which obesity, drunk driving, diabetes etc HAS ALREADY BEEN FACTORED into the system. So what is causing our hospitals to be over loaded and surgeries rescheduled, it is COVID. COVID - NOT obesity, drunk driving, diabetes meth over dose or what else people what throw is causing the IMMEDIATE surge. Let's consider why COVID needs to be treated differently than obesity


URGENCY. From the time of someone being infected with COVID to escalating to the point of being requiring hospitalization could be days. This is not the case with diabetes or obesity. Usually one does not go from getting a diabetes diagnoses to the hospital in a matter of days.
TRANSMISSIBILITY: The ability of COVID to infect others is exponential unlike a stroke, heart attack or diabetes which are not contagious. This is where people need to stop being so selfish just think about themselves. If I am fat, I cannot accidentally make you fat by being in the same room. If I have COVID, I can infect you. The right to someone's choices end when it impacts me.
ABILITY TO MITIGATE RISKS - This is the area which COVID and obesity are similar in specific ways. In both cases, hospitalization by COVID and obesity is reduce through actions which one has control over. I agree that people should take care of their health, there is no argument there. HOWEVER, if we look at the results of the mitigation, this is where it differs. One can reduce their risk of hospitalization of COVID in roughly 6 weeks elapsed time with about 2 hours of effort. The time it takes to go get the first an second shot is just a few hours in total. There is almost immediately a reduction of risk of hospitalization. Then wait and repeat, (and repeat again). To reduce the effects of obesity, it takes much longer in time. If right now, there were actions to immediately mandate the reversal of obesity, in the short term there would very little impact on hospitalization. The effort to reverse obesity is much greater than providing vaccinations.

This is leads back to focusing on obesity is important, but its a long game and it will not solve the current problem of hospitals being overwhelmed. The most immediately, and more impactful solution is focusing on getting people vaccinated as it reduces transmission, hospitalization. If it means finding ways to motivate people through incentives or penalties than I am okay with that. 

I agree getting obese out of the hospital is important too. If making them a $100 would change the situation I would agree with it too. However, then you would have to give them notice like the non vaccinators adequate time (a year lets say to get in shape, can do it in 6 weeks like the vaccine shot). So give notice that the obese have a year to get into shape. In the meantime, COVID is still the problem. Bringing up obesity doesn't do anything now.


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> ... $100 fine for the unvaxxeds is waaaay too cheap along with a $50 top up for a co-morbidity to treat a Covid patient in ICU. The "real" price tag to treat a Covid patient is in the thousands of dollars mainly because of their length of stay required to get well (like a month or 2?) provided they're lucky enough.... to go home eventually.


I am not looking at full recovery of costs, as I do believe in universal healthcare. I know it's expensive. The point of the fine is to motivate people to take action. I don't know what the right amount is. Doesn't really matter, In the US where they still have to pay for large amounts, they are still not getting vaccinated. To me this is all about figuring out how to get people to get vaccinate.


----------



## damian13ster

Create an effective and safe vaccine that stops the transmission.
Also, have companies that create the vaccine assume liability for it.

I think that would get a lot of people who are on the sidelines vaccinated.

The answer is quite simple - create better product and make sure the creators take ownership and liability for it. Then you will have increased demand


----------



## Plugging Along

damian13ster said:


> Create an effective and safe vaccine that stops the transmission.
> Also, have companies that create the vaccine assume liability for it.
> 
> I think that would get a lot of people who are on the sidelines vaccinated.
> 
> The answer is quite simple - create better product and make sure the creators take ownership and liability for it. Then you will have increased demand


It would be ideal to do this. However, at the rate the COVID mutates, makes it very difficult. 

I heard the best analogy from some IT folks yesterday. We should consider COVID like a a computer virus. How do people fight a computer virus? They get anti-virus software (vaccines). However, we all know that we must update our anti-virus software through updates all the time (boosters). Computer viruses change all the time, usually due to human creating them. COVID changes with the same malicious intent, but it's done through biology. 

Do we say we don't put an anti-virus on our computer or do the updates because there are new version all time? No, we put the anti-virus software on, it provides protection until the next virus (mutation). So maybe McAfee and Symantec should just not release software until they have all of the possible virus and unknown mutations possible. 

I don't think that even if there was a 100% effectiveness, you would have 100% vaccination rates. There are many other reasons (usually misinformation or misinterpretation) or just disbelief of the science or covid exists.


----------



## damian13ster

Why aren't creators willing to take liability? They sure are taking a lot of profit?

Scientists who created it are not willing to take responsibility - not exactly a way to gain public confidence


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... like you don't make things up because you're a master of twisting stuff or mincing words or going around in circles or beating around the bush in disguise of providing "facts and evidence" in need to "support" "your" position or point of view. This is your usual modus operandi of which I have seen enough of in real life. That's why _you_ specifically get called a spin-o-matic if not twist-o-matic, table-turner, et al. Do you need me continuously call you that or you can also put me on ignore. Besides, where the hell on this forum did it require a support of facts, data, blah blah blah or was it you and your ilks who continue to spewing that requirement? Just like you own this forum.


Well I stick to facts because I want to have a discussion based on reality.

I can't recall an instance of twisting words. The closest I can think of in recent memory is an occasion where you thought two words meant the same thing, but they don't. And in that case I even posted references to lengthy papers on how they actually are different, despite the apparent similarities.
But again, if you'd care to point out an instance where I flip flopped or "twisted words", that would be interesting. To be clear I don't think it's "twisting words" to stick to the same dictionary definition of a word throughout a conversation.

At this point I'm honestly curious if you really don't understand what's going on. It seems like you actually think sticking to facts and remaining precise and accurate is somehow deceitful or misleading. I find that interesting as I don't often get to engage with people with such a viewpoint. You actually seem unable to even explain where I'm "twisting words". 
On some threads I've gone out and pulled my position from years ago (I believe in the Apple thread I pulled a post from perhaps 8 years ago).

I actually pride myself on my consistency, and ability to admit when I'm wrong, or when my opinion changes.
I'll openly admit it if they happen.


As for where it calls for facts and data, most discussion forums are based on the assumption of good faith factual sharing of information. This wouldn't be a very useful financial forum if it was full of incorrect information.





> ... I'll check on this but only "common sense" tells me the employer would be paying legislated sick leave, if they value their employees back. Just like you do as a manager.


Employers do pay legislated sick leave, but* some employers do not have a legislated sick leave requirement*, therefore they don't necessarily pay it.
I'll let you in on a big secret, sometimes employers go beyond the legislated minimum.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> It would be ideal to do this. However, at the rate the COVID mutates, makes it very difficult.


We've known this since the beginning.



damian13ster said:


> Why aren't creators willing to take liability? They sure are taking a lot of profit?


The government said "release it now", the drug manufacturers said "we can't take that risk", so they removed the risk to get the vaccine out faster.

The problem is that it's REALLY hard to know the impact of a new drug, and due to strict liability people sue the drug makers even if they try their best to ensure it's safe.
It's a real issue (read up on "Strict Liability Pharmaceuticals"), and there is also the problem with "protecting big pharma".

It's a really hard balance. There needs to be some accountability, but that will of course make them hesitant. If you put me in charge of a pharma company, I'd demand massive payment for the risk I'm taking, and I'd be incredibly slow and careful releasing anything, to avoid the liability. This results in people suffering while the solutions languish in trials, or get shelved because they're not commercial viable.

Of course the other side is a careless executive/company getting rich selling dangerous stuff, with no repercussions.

It's a tough balance, and I think it's up to politicians to manage that balance. As our representatives, that's actually their role in government.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> We've known this since the beginning.
> 
> 
> The government said "release it now", the drug manufacturers said "we can't take that risk", so they removed the risk to get the vaccine out faster.
> 
> The problem is that it's REALLY hard to know the impact of a new drug, and due to strict liability people sue the drug makers even if they try their best to ensure it's safe.
> It's a real issue (read up on "Strict Liability Pharmaceuticals"), and there is also the problem with "protecting big pharma".
> 
> It's a really hard balance. There needs to be some accountability, but that will of course make them hesitant. If you put me in charge of a pharma company, I'd demand massive payment for the risk I'm taking, and I'd be incredibly slow and careful releasing anything, to avoid the liability. This results in people suffering while the solutions languish in trials, or get shelved because they're not commercial viable.
> 
> Of course the other side is a careless executive/company getting rich selling dangerous stuff, with no repercussions.
> 
> It's a tough balance, and I think it's up to politicians to manage that balance. As our representatives, that's actually their role in government.


Well, why not shift the liability on them now if it proved to be so great, safe, and effective?
Wouldn't that be one single best move to increase public trust?


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Well, why not shift the liability on them now if it proved to be so great, safe, and effective?
> Wouldn't that be one single best move to increase public trust?


Why would they accept liability?
Very limited benefit, and a massive future cost.

Remember, we KNOW that the COVID19 vaccine has side effects, it's just a question of how serious. Covering a few deaths, strokes, heart damage could easily eat up all the profit.


----------



## damian13ster

From their perspective, I wouldn't either.
It was just incredibly irresponsible from the government to take the liability off of the companies.
It certainly is very strong argument against the safety of the vaccine.
Now, I am no legal expert. For sure people who took the vaccine up to this date can't hold manufacturers liable.
Wouldn't it be possible to shift liability to the suppliers for doses applied after the change takes effect? 
Especially if they come up with new one for Delta, Omicron, Upsilon, or any other crap they come up with


----------



## HappilyRetired

If there's no liability and since we only have a short time frame and the long term affects are unknown, then opting out not be grounds for banning people from living normally in society. People who take the shot that are still afraid can social distance and wear an N95 mask. They can even stay home. But their irrational fear should not prevent others from participating in society.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Well I stick to facts because I want to have a discussion based on reality.
> 
> I can't recall an instance of twisting words. The closest I can think of in recent memory is an occasion where you thought two words meant the same thing, but they don't. And in that case I even posted references to lengthy papers on how they actually are different, despite the apparent similarities.
> But again, if you'd care to point out an instance where I flip flopped or "twisted words", that would be interesting. To be clear I don't think it's "twisting words" to stick to the same dictionary definition of a word throughout a conversation.
> 
> At this point I'm honestly curious if you really don't understand what's going on. It seems like you actually think sticking to facts and remaining precise and accurate is somehow deceitful or misleading. I find that interesting as I don't often get to engage with people with such a viewpoint. You actually seem unable to even explain where I'm "twisting words".
> On some threads I've gone out and pulled my position from years ago (I believe in the Apple thread I pulled a post from perhaps 8 years ago).
> 
> I actually pride myself on my consistency, and ability to admit when I'm wrong, or when my opinion changes.
> I'll openly admit it if they happen.


 ... yeah, sure. If you say so since it took you half a page to defend yourself. It's okay, I get it as no one thinks the same. As said, you can choose to ignore me if you think I'm wrong and you're right.



> As for where it calls for facts and data, most discussion forums are based on the assumption of good faith factual sharing of information. This wouldn't be a very useful financial forum if it was full of incorrect information.


 ... the irony .... of course, such posters would admit about posting such "correct" information (according to themselves) and be more than happy to "sharing them in "good faith". [[And I haven't even touch on the "financial" aspect of it which is close to none on this "General Discussion" section.] No wonder the country need laws for the publication of misinformation ... oh, here comes the political angle plus "no free speech" bit.


> Employers do pay legislated sick leave, but* some employers do not have a legislated sick leave requirement*, therefore they don't necessarily pay it.


 ... name them "some" then.



> I'll let you in on a big secret, sometimes employers go beyond the legislated minimum.


 ... why does it need to be a secret or even a "big" secret. Are you so deliriously happy such companies offer beyond the legislated minimum that you so generously need to tell me the obvious non-concern as an employee just because you're a manager who thinks he knows best?


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Paid sick leave is when you get paid sick days. Unpaid sick leave means that you don't get paid for sick days. That's not playing with words, that's stating a fact.,


 ... reply in the context of my question, not your pick and choosing sentences. You can get MrMatt to assist you out on it with by my need to know which companies, the "facts".


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... yeah, sure. If you say so since it took you half a page to defend yourself. It's okay, I get it as no one thinks the same. As said, you can choose to ignore me if you think I'm wrong and you're right.


Yes, I put a full half page explanation to help you understand.
yes it was defending myself, but I was also hoping to educate people who want to learn.
You clearly don't.



> ... name them "some" then.


The link covered this.



> ... why does it need to be a secret or even a "big" secret.


Well, since you apparently didn't know, I thought I'd let you know. It's more of an open secret since everybody else seems to know it already.



> Are you so deliriously happy such companies offer beyond the legislated minimum that you so generously need to tell me the obvious non-concern as an employee just because you're a manager who thinks he knows best?


Well yeah I am glad that many employers offer far more than the legislated minimum, aren't you?

I'm flattered, that you'd say I know best, but for some reason I don't think you're being honest with that statement either.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... reply in the context of my question, not your pick and choosing sentences. You can get MrMatt to assist you out on it with by my need to know which companies, the "facts".


It's become obvious that it's pointless trying to discuss with you as you're not interested in an exchange of information. My point was clear and to the point: "there is no mandatory PAID sick time".


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> It's become obvious that it's pointless trying to discuss with you as you're not interested in an exchange of information. My point was clear and to the point: "there is no mandatory PAID sick time".


To which I posted a link.








Sick Leave Across Canada | Canadian Labour Congress


Rules around sick leave differ across Canada and legislative changes are happening quickly. These are the most up-to-date numbers. Canada’s unions have called on the provincial, territorial and federal governments to provide immediate income supports to workers affected by COVID-19 quarantine...




canadianlabour.ca





In some places there is paid sick leave, and in some places there is unpaid sick leave, and in some jobs there is no sick leave at all.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Covid: South Africa new cases double in 24 hours as Omicron spreads*
The full picture in South Africa will not become clear until "people get so sick that they need to go to hospital" which is generally "three, four weeks later," says Prof Salim Abdool Karim of the Africa Task Force for Coronavirus.








Covid: South Africa new cases surge as Omicron spreads


The new Omicron variant has now become dominant, the country's top medical scientists say.



www.bbc.com


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> It's become obvious that it's pointless trying to discuss with you as you're not interested in an exchange of information. My point was clear and to the point: "there is no mandatory PAID sick time".


 ... start with the "legislated" sick leave first and then we'll talk about pay for the sick leave. Of course, it's pointless to continue with "discussion" when you don't even know what the question is ... re-explained to you above.

Yeah, "My point was clear and to the point: "there is no mandatory PAID sick time"." ... change of words.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> To which I posted a link.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sick Leave Across Canada | Canadian Labour Congress
> 
> 
> Rules around sick leave differ across Canada and legislative changes are happening quickly. These are the most up-to-date numbers. Canada’s unions have called on the provincial, territorial and federal governments to provide immediate income supports to workers affected by COVID-19 quarantine...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> canadianlabour.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In some places there is paid sick leave, and in some places there is unpaid sick leave, and in some jobs there is no sick leave at all.


 ... I said "legislated" sick leave - which province/territory or companies that you know of does not have/follow legislated sick leave? In simple terms, if an employee (not self-employed or contractor) is sick, they cannot take time out to attend to their sickness? Seems like TH is one according to HappilyRetired ... correct?

Or are you telling me there is no legislation for sick leave in one of the province in Canada. Or that a company can tell its employees - you have to be on the job regardless you're sick or not. And if you aren't on the job, then don't expect to be paid (obvious), period as whether you're sick or not, it's none of my business in running my business. That's your problem as an "employee".


----------



## zinfit

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Covid: South Africa new cases double in 24 hours as Omicron spreads*
> The full picture in South Africa will not become clear until "people get so sick that they need to go to hospital" which is generally "three, four weeks later," says Prof Salim Abdool Karim of the Africa Task Force for Coronavirus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid: South Africa new cases surge as Omicron spreads
> 
> 
> The new Omicron variant has now become dominant, the country's top medical scientists say.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


yes and 90% of the hospitalizations are the unvaccinated.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... start with the "legislated" sick leave first and then we'll talk about pay for the sick leave. Of course, it's pointless to continue with "discussion" when you don't even know what the question is ... re-explained to you above.


The topic was about paid sick leave, not legislated sick leave. You lost that argument so now you're trying to change the topic and then blame me for not playing along.

I'm not playing that game.


----------



## sags

Germany is locking down the un-vaccinated.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Yes, I put a full half page explanation to help you understand.
> yes it was defending myself, but I was also hoping to educate people who want to learn.
> You clearly don't.


 ... re-read your claim here with the "put on half a page explanation for me to understand" plus "educate people who want to learn" So kind of you (sarcasm deserved) and then you claim (accusation to follow) that "I clearly don't." ... of what, learning, understanding?

So here's my question to you is why would I even want to listen to you?



> The link covered this.


 ... will read it later at my leisure. I'm send a warning - be prepared for a fire-back if the link doesn't answer my question for Happilyretired who is still learning how to dance around with words.



> Well, since you apparently didn't know, I thought I'd let you know. It's more of an open secret since everybody else seems to know it already.


 ... did you have a super-tough day at work yesterday such that your head is all fuzzy? No need to let me know (what f-secret if it's "open" even?) when it's obvious some companies provide more than the minimum (legislated) of sick days? I was in one. I guess it makes you as a boss feeling ecstatic if not deliriously happy (repeating here) to let on such a "secret" as provided by the company.



> Well yeah I am glad that many employers offer far more than the legislated minimum, aren't you?


 ... see above. Hate to tell you this but there's no such thing as a free-lunch, only free brain-washing sessions.



> I'm flattered, that you'd say I know best, but for some reason I don't think you're being honest with that statement either.


 ... then what do you want me to say, short of an insult? A dummy?


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> The topic was about paid sick leave, not legislated sick leave. You lost that argument so now you're trying to change the topic and then blame me for not playing along.
> 
> I'm not playing that game.


 ..yeah, that's because you weren't reading the actual "topic=subject", only its title. Why is there a need for a thread by the OP to open a discussion/debate/criticism/agreement/disagreements if the topic is actually on "(paid) sick leave" that's not changing?


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> Germany is locking down the un-vaccinated.


Not surprising. The Germans are pioneers in human rights violations.


----------



## damian13ster

Second case of Omicron in US is also fully vaccinated individual
All 14 passengers with Omicron variant who traveled on South Africa flights to Netherlands were vaccinated


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Germany is locking down the un-vaccinated.


 ...seems like it.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Second case of Omicron in US is also fully vaccinated individual
> All 14 passengers with Omicron variant who traveled on South Africa flights to Netherlands were vaccinated


 ... so why are you surprised or even concerned as a non-vaxx believer?


----------



## damian13ster

I am not surprised or concerned.
Just wish vaccinated people were being more careful instead of spreading the variants all over the world


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... so why are you surprised or even concerned as a non-vaxx believer?


If the vaccinated are spreading a virus then they need to be locked down. Or do we only lock down unvaccinated people who spread the virus? You can't have it both ways.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

But Omicron also has 26 unique spike mutations, compared with 10 in Delta and six in Beta. Many of them seem likely to render the variant more difficult for the immune system to recognize and thwart.
People who recover from Covid and then receive even one dose of a vaccine tend to produce a broader range of antibodies, *capable of recognizing more versions of the virus*, than do people who are only vaccinated.
*It’s clear that hybrid immunity, the kind that people get when they are both infected and vaccinated, is superior*, and that is very, very likely to take care of this thing, too,” Dr. Nussenzweig said.








Will the Vaccines Stop Omicron? Scientists Are Racing to Find Out.


A “Frankenstein mix” of mutations raises concerns, but the variant may remain vulnerable to current vaccines. If not, revisions will be necessary.




www.nytimes.com





we needed hybrid immunity, unfortunately the corrupt incompetent government had rushed to jab everyone without prior risk assessment


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> If the vaccinated are spreading a virus then they need to be locked down. Or do we only lock down unvaccinated people who spread the virus? You can't have it both ways.


 ... LMAO ... as if the world and the air belongs to the unvaxxesd and not the vaxxeds, say its supporters and/or vax-regretters. Same response for daminxxster.


----------



## damian13ster

Wasn't aware world belongs to any of those specific groups? Thought we all share it?


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> But Omicron also has 26 unique spike mutations, compared with 10 in Delta and six in Beta. Many of them seem likely to render the variant more difficult for the immune system to recognize and thwart.
> People who recover from Covid and then receive even one dose of a vaccine tend to produce a broader range of antibodies, *capable of recognizing more versions of the virus*, than do people who are only vaccinated.
> *It’s clear that hybrid immunity, the kind that people get when they are both infected and vaccinated, is superior*, and that is very, very likely to take care of this thing, too,” Dr. Nussenzweig said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will the Vaccines Stop Omicron? Scientists Are Racing to Find Out.
> 
> 
> A “Frankenstein mix” of mutations raises concerns, but the variant may remain vulnerable to current vaccines. If not, revisions will be necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> we needed hybrid immunity, unfortunately the corrupt incompetent government had rushed to jab *everyone without prior risk assessment*


 ... then you, the genius, get to do that. Say in year 2025?


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Wasn't aware world belongs to any of those specific groups? Thought we all share it?


 ... tell that to HappilyRetired- can't have it both ways.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... tell that to HappilyRetired- can't have it both ways.


Of course you can. If both groups spread the virus, then both groups should take precautions to stop the spread. 
His statement is extremely logical


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Of course you can. If both groups spread the virus, then both groups should take precautions to stop the spread.


 .... I love your use of "should" ... for which group first? 



> His statement is extremely logical


 .. no it's not.


----------



## damian13ster

Both at the same time. If they both spread then they both should take precautions. Why would either of those be first? You make no sense whatsoever


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Both at the same time. If they both spread then they both should take precautions. Why would either of those be first? You make no sense whatsoever


 ... of course, it doesn't make theoretical sense.


----------



## Beaver101

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2021/12/01/anti-vaxxers-hit-rock-bottom-by-trying-to-intimidate-kids-and-parents.html?

Any one surprised with the anti-vax desperados to target every segments, even the kids of the population in order to remain relevant. Or until forcing the government to pass legislations to shut them up.


----------



## Beaver101

Update of 3rd vax shots for Ontarians:

Ontario lowers third COVID-19 vaccine dose eligibility to age 50+



> ... _*Chief Medical Officer of Health Dr. Kieran Moore says that starting Dec. 13, anyone age 50 and up who received their second COVID-19 vaccine dose six months ago or longer will be able to book a third appointment.*
> 
> Kidney dialysis patients, hematopoietic stem cell transplant recipients as well as “hematopoietic stem cell transplants (HSCT), hematopoietic cell transplants (HCT) (autologous or allogeneic), and recipients of CAR-T-cell therapy” will be able to schedule a third vaccine dose as of today.
> 
> Further expansion of eligibility will come in the new year.
> 
> “Beginning in January, Ontario will further expand eligibility for booster doses based on age and risk, with an interval of six to eight months from the second dose,” the government said in a release issued on Thursday afternoon
> 
> Chief Medical Officer of Health Dr. Kieran Moore is set to provide an update this afternoon on third doses for more Ontarians._


 ... bolded part is the key on the 3rd shot for the general pop for Ontarians. I say, enjoy your holidays first and worry about it later.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2021/12/01/anti-vaxxers-hit-rock-bottom-by-trying-to-intimidate-kids-and-parents.html?
> 
> Any one surprised with the anti-vax desperados to target every segments, even the kids of the population in order to remain relevant. Or until forcing the government to pass legislations to shut them up.


I'd rather hear an opinion that I disagree with than have that person silenced by the government. And you're forgetting that if people who said inaccurate things were silenced then you would not be allowed to speak. Even though not hearing your BS would be nice I am 100% against the govt silencing you and 100% for you being allowed to speak your mind, regardless of how wrong you may be.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> I'd rather hear an opinion that I disagree with than have that person silenced by the government. And you're forgetting that if people who said inaccurate things were silenced then you would not be allowed to speak. Even though not hearing your BS would be nice I am 100% against the govt silencing you and 100% for you being allowed to speak your mind, regardless of how wrong you may be.


 ... why don't your read the link first for the "proof" first before just spewing your opinions here. Are the anti-vaxxers being silenced by harassing the vaxxers who want to have their kids vaxxed now? 

Previously, it was protests against the war veterans (BC), hospital workers (ON), and on and on. 

Who's next - here's a recommendation - Santa at the North Pole.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... why don't your read the link first for the "proof" first before just spewing your opinions here. Are the anti-vaxxers being silenced by harassing the vaxxers who want to have their kids vaxxed now?
> 
> Previously, it was protests against the war veterans (BC), hospital workers (ON), and on and on.
> 
> Who's next - here's a recommendation - Santa at the North Pole.


Vaccine hesitant people are being harrassed too. Even worse they are being banned from Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube, and some are losing their jobs including highly trained medical professionals.

You don't care about that, you only care when someone who agrees with you is questioned. I care about everyone that is being silenced but only those with valid questions about the shot are losing their jobs.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Vaccine hesitant people are being harrassed too. Even worse they are being banned from Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube, and some are losing their jobs including highly trained medical professionals.
> 
> You don't care about that, you only care when someone who agrees with you is questioned. I care about everyone that is being silenced but only those with valid questions about the shot are losing their jobs.


 ... okay man, if you say so. Remember, I'm the labelled sheep hiding under my bed in fear, replying to you.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> So here's my question to you is why would I even want to listen to you?


Most people engage in discussions to share opinions and learn.
You don't want to learn, you're trolling and wasting time.

I think my experience will be better if I simply don't engage with you.
Good bye.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

REINFECTION RISK—New #Omicron study finds huge surge in #COVID19 *reinfections*. Worse, relative to old waves— numbers of infections in new Omicron wave are reinfections. How much2.4x higher reinfection risk with Omicron. HT @SACEMAdirector

















Increased risk of SARS-CoV-2 reinfection associated with emergence of the Omicron variant in South Africa


Objective To examine whether SARS-CoV-2 reinfection risk has changed through time in South Africa, in the context of the emergence of the Beta, Delta, and Omicron variants Design Retrospective analysis of routine epidemiological surveillance data Setting Line list data on SARS-CoV-2 with...




www.medrxiv.org






NK Leb

@NickytaLeb
'We are seeing an increase in the rate of reinfection with Omicron (that was unseen in previous waves') - NICD's Anne von Gottberg on reinfections in South Africa:


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> Most people engage in discussions to share opinions and learn.
> You don't want to learn, you're trolling and wasting time.
> 
> I think my experience will be better if I simply don't engage with you.
> Good bye.


Good bye.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Ukrainiandude said:


> 'We are seeing an increase in the rate of reinfection with Omicron (that was unseen in previous waves') - NICD's Anne von Gottberg on reinfections in South Africa:


That may or may not be good. A high infection rate with no or minimal fatalities is good.


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> That may or may not be good. A high infection rate with no or minimal fatalities is good.


Not really.
Since there are really no benefits to getting sick with omicron, and there are obvious downsides, I'd say it's still bad.

Heck the common cold barely kills anyone so I'd say that it isn't "good" either.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Most people engage in discussions to share opinions and learn.
> You don't want to learn, you're trolling and wasting time.
> 
> I think my experience will be better if I simply don't engage with you.
> Good bye.


 .. BYE then, it's not like I didn't tell you to ignore me - "twice (as in two times)" in "fact". 

Remember, I have the right to free speech trolling as much as you have here.


----------



## Beaver101

Former public servant moves to Mexico to avoid vaccine passport system – CBC.ca

Cool as that is a very nice place to retire and stay there permanently ... until Mexico too imposes a vaccine passport or don't offer the medical services when needed or cutting ties with friends and family is okay too .. and then we'll be hearing screams of "But I'm a damn Canadian!"


----------



## Ukrainiandude

HappilyRetired said:


> That may or may not be good. A high infection rate with no or minimal fatalities is good.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Where's the graph for fatalities?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

HappilyRetired said:


> Where's the graph for fatalities?


You want people to drop dead in 24H like in Hollywood movies ? Plus Africans population is relatively young. Interesting to see how vaccinated western boomers will take it.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Ukrainiandude said:


> You want people drop dead in 24H like in Hollywood movies ?


It's been around a lot longer than 24 hours. Even the graph you posted shows that.

Maybe you need to find a different graph 🤣 🤣


----------



## Ukrainiandude

HappilyRetired said:


> It's been around a lot longer than 24 hours. Even the graph you posted shows that.
> 
> Maybe you need to find a different graph 🤣 🤣


“24 H“ was figure of speech. Yo got the idea. Give it time and we see if vaccines work against new variant.


----------



## Beaver101

Comedian Torches Anti-Vaxxer In The Audience With An Absolutely Killer Line

Ouch! But then that's coming from comedians(?) in the USA.


----------



## Beaver101

'We shouldn't call it a booster anymore:' Head of science table says Ontario must accelerate rollout of third doses



> _Last Updated Friday, December 3, 2021 12:54PM EST
> 
> The head of Ontario’s science table is urging the Ford government to accelerate its rollout of booster shots, arguing that it doesn’t help anybody to have millions of doses just “sitting in the freezer.”
> 
> Dr. Peter Jüni, who is the scientific director of the group of experts advising the Ford government on its pandemic response, made the comment during an interview with CTV News Channel on Friday morning.
> 
> “We can’t eat the cake and have it too. Either we now just take these vaccine doses that we have in our freezers out and send them to low and middle income countries or we use them here. It doesn’t make sense to play safe and keep them in the freezer, you know?” he said. *“So either we protect our population – that’s third doses – or first and second doses for all those who haven’t had them yet if they now start to see we really have a challenge with Omicron or we just say ‘OK, we’re ready to gamble’ and then we give these third doses away. The point really is it doesn’t help anybody if they stay in the freezer, and that’s one of the discussions we should have.”*
> 
> The Ford government announced on Thursday that it would expand third dose eligibility to all residents aged 50 and up as of Dec. 13 so long as they are at least six months out from their second shot.
> 
> The government, however, indicated that it does not plan to further expand eligibility until the New Year as it seeks to preserve capacity in its system for school-aged children, who only recently became eligible to receive their first shots.
> 
> *Ontario is currently sitting on a supply of nearly 2.9 million doses of COVID-19 vaccine.*
> 
> “I'm just off a call with a colleague from South Africa and it appears that the vaccine protection continues to be intact against hospital admissions (with Omicron) That's a really important message but it means that we need to continue the path that we are going on right now,” Jüni told CTV News Channel on Friday. “We shouldn't call it booster anymore. From my perspective for many of the age groups it just will be the third dose that will be needed._
> ...


 ... I would agree with this guy, spend it (3rd dose) or send it rather than wasting it.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Perhaps make it a monthly booster and *start vaccinating toddlers *ASAP instead of wasting the precious vaccine on third doses for boomers. Boomers are gonna die soon anyway.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Perhaps make it a monthly booster and *start vaccinating toddlers *ASAP instead of wasting the precious vaccine on third doses for boomers. Boomers are gonna die soon anyway.
> ...


 ... why? You don't age and are invincible? 

Whether toddlers are to be vaccinated or boomers are to be vaccinated, not for you to say. Just open your wallet and pay more tax in the new year to fund future vaccines. LMAO. What a sap.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... why? You don't age and are invincible?
> 
> Whether toddlers are to be vaccinated or boomers are to be vaccinated, not for you to say. Just open your wallet and pay more tax in the new year to fund future vaccines. LMAO. What a sap.


Children are far more likely to die from the shot than from Covid....and you want it forced on them?

That's despicable.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Children are far more likely to die from the shot than from Covid....and you want it forced on them?
> 
> That's despicable.


 ... tell that to UKdude - he was the one suggesting jabbing toddlers. He's the sickie.


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> Children are far more likely to die from the shot than from Covid....and you want it forced on them?
> 
> That's despicable.


Can you support that? I have heard that the risk/reward for young people is mixed.


You have to understand, the science deniers still think vaccination will end the pandemic.
They think the unvaccinated are why COVID is still around. 


We've know, since the beginning that vaccination would not end this, and COVID19 was destined to be endemic.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> Whether toddlers are to be vaccinated or boomers are to be vaccinated, not for you to say.


Toddlers are future taxpayers, and boomers are burden to their society.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Toddlers are future taxpayers, and boomers are burden to their society.


 .. then what you are you? A bot-troller here?


----------



## damian13ster

A 3 year old in Manitoba was given COVID vaccine instead of a flu shot by 'mistake'.
I am sure that will help promote flu shots and covid shots among kids...

Bardarson says both she and her daughter had fevers and headaches. Dali started vomiting a few days after they got the shots.

Looks like she might be able to survive this, but of course the person administering hasn't been penalized


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> A 3 year old in Ontario was given COVID vaccine instead of a flu shot by 'mistake'.


I've seen no reports of this happening in Ontario.

[/QUOTE]
Bardarson says both she and her daughter had fevers and headaches. Dali started vomiting a few days after they got the shots.
[/QUOTE]
That incident with the Bardarsons was in Manitoba.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/brandon-girl-wrongly-vaccinated-covid-19-1.6271286





> Looks like she might be able to survive this, but of course the person administering hasn't been penalized


Mistakes happen. If a mistake happens it is MOST important for them to quickly identify the issue and take preventative action. Punishing for honest mistakes might impair the response.


----------



## damian13ster

Omicron outbreak at Norway Christmas party is biggest outside South Africa, authorities say | CNN


At least 13 people in Oslo have been infected with the Omicron variant of the coronavirus following a corporate Christmas party described as a "superspreader event," and their numbers could rise to over 60 cases, authorities said on Friday.




www.cnn.com





All the attendees were fully vaccinated and had tested negative before the event.
"Our working hypothesis is that at least half of the 120 participants were infected with the Omicron variant during the party. This makes this, for now, the largest Omicron outbreak outside South Africa."

Perfect- vaccines appear to be useless in stopping infection. We need more and more evidence of that.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> .. then what you are you? A bot-troller here?


Am I being trolled by an elderly spinster ?


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Am I being trolled by an elderly spinster ?


 ... I feel for your parents and their parents.


----------



## Eder

All were vaccinated...wtf








42 people test positive for COVID-19 following birthday party at Kingsville restaurant


The Windsor-Essex County Health Unit has issued a 'high risk' exposure alert after more than 40 people who attended a birthday party in a Kingsville restaurant tested positive for COVID-19.




windsor.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Eder said:


> All were vaccinated...wtf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 42 people test positive for COVID-19 following birthday party at Kingsville restaurant
> 
> 
> The Windsor-Essex County Health Unit has issued a 'high risk' exposure alert after more than 40 people who attended a birthday party in a Kingsville restaurant tested positive for COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> windsor.ctvnews.ca


 It doesn’t say if they were fully vaccinated including the boosters.
I would say they weren’t vaccinated because vaccines according to manufacturers and health Canada give protection of 90% of higher.


----------



## Eder

They all showed proof of vaccination if you read the article.


----------



## Synergy

^ Not surprising. Vaccines are a lot less effective than they hoped for. It must have been the unvaccinated super spreader waiter! Vaccines have given a lot of people false hope. Take a look at restaurants, bars, parties, etc. people don't give a **** anymore - I'm vaccinated.....


----------



## sags

Eder said:


> They all showed proof of vaccination if you read the article.


Or so the restaurant owner now claims.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Eder said:


> They all showed proof of vaccination if you read the article.


one can buy proof of vaccination on dark web, or give a nurse a few hundred dollars to inject pillow instead of one’s arm. 
This is Canada for you, man. 
Black money from all over the world being laundered via real estate all over Canada, government officials and bank widely support it, it is called “snow washing“.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Prices and promises vary, according to offers viewed by CBC News on platforms like Telegram. One seller is offering fake proof-of-vaccination cards or QR codes for several provinces — including Manitoba and B.C. — for $200, payable in Bitcoin or Ethereum cryptocurrencies. They promise to deliver the fake documents within 48 hours by mail or in "just a few hours" if they're being sent electronically.

Just minutes after CBC News reached out to the seller, they sent a picture of an Ontario proof-of-vaccination form that appears to be identical to those being issued by many Ontario vaccination clinics. Photos posted online by the seller of fake proof-of-vaccination documents for B.C and Manitoba also mirror official documents.
The seller boasted that information on the bogus cards is entered in provincial databases.
Another seller claimed to be based in Montreal. His channel, which was being followed by 320,065 subscribers when it was viewed by CBC News, included offers of fake proof-of-vaccination from several jurisdictions around the world — and featured photos of an Alberta proof-of-vaccination certificate that resembles the real one.

*There is no way to know how many fake vaccination documents are in circulation in Canada.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-fake-vaccination-certificates-1.6191154



what do you expect from one of the most corrupt country in the world? 
And real estate is another level of multi billion corrupt system *


----------



## damian13ster

Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States







www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





At the country-level, there appears to be no discernable relationship between percentage of population fully vaccinated and new COVID-19 cases in the last 7 days (Fig. 1). *In fact, the trend line suggests a marginally positive association such that countries with higher percentage of population fully vaccinated have higher COVID-19 cases per 1 million people.*

And that was before Omicron.......


----------



## Eder

There is also an actual clinical study on masks contradicting wishful thinking science from the CDC.






New Danish Study Finds Masks Don’t Protect Wearers From COVID Infection | Jon Miltimore


“Researchers in Denmark reported on Wednesday that surgical masks did not protect the wearers against infection with the coronavirus in a large randomized clinical trial,” the New York Times reports. The study is perhaps the best scientific evidence to date on the efficacy of masks.



fee.org


----------



## damian13ster

Posting actual research papers and trying to pass them off as science?
Crazy.
Just listen to Fauci - he is science!


----------



## sags

Do you actually read any of the stuff you post ?

_Inconclusive results, missing data, variable adherence, patient-reported findings on home tests, no blinding, and no assessment of whether masks could decrease disease transmission from mask wearers to others. _


----------



## damian13ster

I think you are misunderstanding the disclaimer you posted.
How do you blind the study? Not like participants won't know whether they are wearing a mask or not 😂😂
'no assessment of whether masks could decrease disease transmission from mask wearers to others' - yeah, no **** Sherlock. That's not what it was designed to do. It was designed to test whether a person wearing a mask is protected
Missing data - yes, out of 6024 participants, 4862 completed the study. Confidence intervals are adjusted based on the number that completed the study, not the number that initiated
Inconclusive results - yes, that's what confidence intervals are, by definition. Null hypothesis was not rejected. That's how statistics work.

Now, not sure whether you actually read the study posted, because your post indicates you did not, or that you do not have basic knowledge in statistical analysis


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> There is also an actual clinical study on masks contradicting wishful thinking science from the CDC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Danish Study Finds Masks Don’t Protect Wearers From COVID Infection | Jon Miltimore
> 
> 
> “Researchers in Denmark reported on Wednesday that surgical masks did not protect the wearers against infection with the coronavirus in a large randomized clinical trial,” the New York Times reports. The study is perhaps the best scientific evidence to date on the efficacy of masks.
> 
> 
> 
> fee.org


 ... article published on Wednesday November 18, *2020* (isn't that abit old, like last year?) by author Jon Miltimore with the cv:




> *J**on Miltimore*





> Jonathan Miltimore is the Managing Editor of FEE.org. His writing/reporting has been the subject of articles in TIME magazine, The Wall Street Journal, CNN, Forbes, Fox News, and the Star Tribune.
> 
> Bylines: Newsweek, The Washington Times, MSN.com, The Washington Examiner, The Daily Caller, The Federalist, the Epoch Times.


And the *Fee.org *is about



> *FEE's Vision *To make the ideas of liberty familiar, credible, and compelling to the rising generation.
> 
> *FEE's mission* is to inspire, educate, and connect future leaders with the economic, ethical, and legal principles of a* free society.*
> 
> These principles include: individual liberty, free-market economics, entrepreneurship, private property, high moral character, and limited government.
> 
> FEE's mission is to inspire, educate, and connect future leaders with the economic, ethical, and legal principles of a free society.
> 
> These principles include: individual liberty, free-market economics, entrepreneurship, private property, high moral character, and limited government.


So in the meantime, its readers shouldn't forget to DONATE in supporting these "free" brain-washing sessions. Note, "indepth credit" courses would require a fee. Okay, open up them wallets.

Just noticed their mission is to make a "free society"? Hey, then my Freedom Island concept isn't that far of a fetch for these wolves(?).

sags, I think we caught another consptheoryfish site.


----------



## sags

There is probably a "study" somewhere that claims being a meth addict is good for weight loss.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Leading public health figures in the US are still trying to wrap their head around what the Omicron coronavirus variant means for the world.

Dr Anthony Fauci, lead infectious diseases expert in the US, said that scientists still need more information on the highly-mutated variant but hospitalisations in South Africa, where Omicron is now the dominant strain, have not risen drastically.

"Thus far, *it does not look like there’s a great degree of severity to it*," he told CNN on Sunday. “But we have really got to be careful before we make any determinations that it is less severe or it really doesn’t cause any severe illness, comparable to Delta”.

Stephen Hoge, president of Moderna, said there was a "real risk" existing vaccines may not be effective against the new strain.

"What I don't know is how substantial that is," he told ABC News.

The Delta variant continues to be dominant in the US, but Omicron has now been found in at least 17 US states.

it is time to call off the pandemia.


----------



## sags

_South Africa’s President Cyril Ramaphosa said hospitals are preparing for more admissions as the country entered a fourth COVID-19 wave driven by the Omicron coronavirus strain._

“As the country heads into a fourth wave of COVID-19 infections, we are experiencing a rate of infections that we have not seen since the pandemic started,” Ramaphosa said on Monday.









South Africa prepares hospitals as COVID cases surge


President Cyril Ramaphosa says Omicron seems to be the dominant COVID strain in most of the country’s nine provinces.




www.aljazeera.com


----------



## nortel'd

Eder said:


> There is also an actual clinical study on masks contradicting wishful thinking science from the CDC.


I read the article and in my opinion, it it lacks creditability. I agree the coronavirus can enter the body through the nose and mouth -- hence new recommendations to wear well fitted medical grade / KN95 / N95 face coverings and practice social distancing.
They failed to mention that most viruses are polar and hydrate (absorb water) becoming a much larger species and therefore much easier to filter out of the air using face coverings. 
There is a possibility that as the naturally polar Covid-19 virus mutates it may become more polar and hydrates (absorb more water) to become even larger. The larger molecule wont go through a recommended mask but its enlarged size allows for a smooth landing anywhere on ones exposed eyes. 
We need a clinical trial that compares also wearing different types of eye coverings along with the recommended face coverings to one where no eye coverings were used.


----------



## Eder

I think we need clinical studies that agree with our own opinions...otherwise they are worthless.
If you dont like the site I posted heres the same story from the extreme right wing conservative anti vax New York Times...









A New Study Questions Whether Masks Protect Wearers. You Need to Wear Them Anyway. (Published 2020)


Masks prevent people from transmitting the coronavirus to others, scientists now agree. But a new trial failed to document protection from the virus among the wearers.




www.nytimes.com





_*Dr. Mette Kalager, a professor of medical decision making at the University of Oslo, found the research compelling. The study showed that “although there might be a symbolic effect,” she wrote in an email, “the effect of wearing a mask does not substantially reduce risk” for wearers. *_


----------



## Eder

And more science happening in Calgary....incredible



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FF5onGGVEAM6CK9?format=jpg&name=900x900


----------



## damian13ster

The best thing is, if you have connecting flight within Canada, you have no problems boarding that flight. Quarantining and isolation can wait - first we have to put you on a tube with 300+ people for couple of hours.......of course those people are then free to go without quarantine


----------



## MrMatt

Whole bunch of issues with the study.
But 2% got COVID in a 2 month window. That's crazy.

For reference for the entire pandemic, Canada is at 4.7% of the population. They had half that rate in 2 months.





COVID-19 Tracker Canada


Real-time COVID-19 data updates for every region in Canada, tracking cases, deaths, vaccinations, hospitalizations, ICU, recoveries and testing.



covid19tracker.ca





Also


----------



## damian13ster

4.7% identified cases. It wasn't easy to actually get tested in Canada


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Eder said:


> And more science happening in Calgary....incredible
> 
> 
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FF5onGGVEAM6CK9?format=jpg&name=900x900


Why that was a surprise?

*Temporary border restrictions and measures to address COVID-19 Omicron variant of concern*
Coming soon: *Fully vaccinated travellers* arriving by air or land, who have been in any country other than Canada and the United States in the 14 days prior to entry to Canada, will all be subject to arrival testing and enhanced public health measures. Travellers arriving by air may take connecting flights to their place of quarantine.

News release

In effect: Travellers who have been in the following countries within 14 days prior to arrival in Canada: Botswana, Egypt, Eswatini, Lesotho, Malawi, Mozambique, Namibia, Nigeria, South Africa, Zimbabwe


Foreign nationals are not permitted entry into Canada
Canadian citizens, permanent residents, people with status under the Indian Act, are subject to enhanced pre-entry and arrival testing, screening, and quarantine measures
Travellers (fully vaccinated and unvaccinated) are required to stay at a designated quarantine facility while they await their arrival test result






COVID-19: Travel, testing and borders - Travel.gc.ca


COVID-19 border measures have ended as of October 1, 2022 for all travellers entering or returning to Canada by air, land or sea.




travel.gc.ca


----------



## nortel'd

Eder said:


> And more science happening in Calgary....incredible
> 
> 
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FF5onGGVEAM6CK9?format=jpg&name=900x900


Their treatment had nothing to do with science. Someone working in airport services was having a bad day and chose to take it out on a Canadian traveler.


----------



## Eder

That was my take on it.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> 4.7% identified cases. It wasn't easy to actually get tested in Canada


You've been able to get same day tests for a year.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> You've been able to get same day tests for a year.


Denmark has 16.5 tests/person (highest in the world)
Canada has 1.3 tests/person (65th in the world)


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Denmark has 16.5 tests/person (highest in the world)
> Canada has 1.3 tests/person (65th in the world)


... what's the USA? and who pays? 

And then it's so what are you going to do with them "positive" tests? Quarantine (OMG, Canada is turning to Nazism from socialism!) everyone, like you going to be the first to listen.


----------



## bgc_fan

Beaver101 said:


> ... what's the USA? and who pays?
> 
> And then it's so what are you going to do with them "positive" tests? Quarantine (OMG, Canada is turning to Nazism from socialism!) everyone, like you going to be the first to listen.


Honestly, you're not going to get an answer on this because people arguing for tests over vaccinations haven't thought far past the "don't need vaccinations part". 

Basically, they just want to say, "look we're tested", if it comes negative, good to go. If it is positive, keep quiet and hope no one finds out: Parents knowingly sent their child to school after they tested positive for Covid-19. 75 classmates were forced to quarantine. But then everyone else suffers because they're too self-absorbed to think about other people.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Denmark has 16.5 tests/person (highest in the world)
> Canada has 1.3 tests/person (65th in the world)


well I'd hope if they have nearly 10x the number of cases/month, they'd have 10x the number of tests too.


----------



## damian13ster

The numbers are from beginning of the pandemic, not during recent wave.

You showed surprise that less than 5% Canadians had COVID identified. If you don't test - you will not find it. 
Other countries who test more (and there is 64 of them) are likely to find more.


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> Honestly, you're not going to get an answer on this because people arguing for tests over vaccinations haven't thought far past the "don't need vaccinations part".
> 
> Basically, they just want to say, "look we're tested", if it comes negative, good to go. If it is positive, keep quiet and hope no one finds out: Parents knowingly sent their child to school after they tested positive for Covid-19. 75 classmates were forced to quarantine. But then everyone else suffers because they're too self-absorbed to think about other people.


Both groups are dumb.

Test only ignores the reality that asymptomic spread happens.
Vaccine only ignores the reality that the vaccine doesn't stop spread.

What we really need to do is maintain reasonable measures, get most people vaccinated, get our boosters, and monitor in case we get a projected hospital overload.

As far as stupid selfish people, not much you can really do, if someone purposely sends COVID positive people into situations to cause spread, I'd argue that's almost bioterrorism. The only reason to hold back on prosecution is that we don't want people to avoid testing. Morally (and argually legally) the parents that sent their kids are liable for all impacts from that decision. If 75 families sued for lost income, it would bankrupt them.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Both groups are dumb.
> 
> *Test only ignores the reality that asymptomic spread happens.*
> Vaccine only ignores the reality that the vaccine doesn't stop spread.
> 
> What we really need to do is maintain reasonable measures, get most people vaccinated, get our boosters, and monitor in case we get a projected hospital overload.
> 
> As far as stupid selfish people, not much you can really do, if someone purposely sends COVID positive people into situations to cause spread, I'd argue that's almost bioterrorism. The only reason to hold back on prosecution is that we don't want people to avoid testing. Morally (and argually legally) the parents that sent their kids are liable for all impacts from that decision. If 75 families sued for lost income, it would bankrupt them.


Bit confused by this statement. Could you clarify? Tests check for presence of the virus, not for presence of symptoms


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Bit confused by this statement. Could you clarify? Tests check for presence of the virus, not for presence of symptoms


We're not testing people who aren't symptomatic very often.

And actually rapid tests don't check for the presence of the virus.

The test aren't actually all that accurate, for asymptomatic people with COVID, they're somewhere around 50% for false negatives.








How Accurate Are Rapid COVID Tests? What Research Shows


The risk of getting a false positive result for COVID-19 is relatively low but false negatives are common. Still, a rapid test can be a useful preliminary test.




www.healthline.com





If testing of asymptomatic people fails to catch 50% of the carriers (ie 50% false negative) I don't think that's good enough.


Nobody is suggesting continuous mass testing of the population. It might be effective, and arguably less of a human rights violation than the vaccine mandates.

My opinion is that people relying on rapid tests for "protection" are just as dumb as people relying on vaccination to reduce spread.


We don't have a good way to identify asymptomatic carriers, and until we do this likely won't end. But we've known that this will simply become endemic anyway. The idea that we'd beat COVID19 was not founded on science from the start.
The most likley outcome always that eventually we'd lose interest and ideally we'd end up with something less lethal.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> The test aren't actually all that accurate, for asymptomatic people with COVID, they're somewhere around 50% for false negatives.


Yeah there's a big problem with covid test accuracy.

The rapid antigen tests have huge false negatives. They can only detect someone when they are near peak infectiousness... really way too late. Still better than not detecting covid.

The PCR tests are the only accurate ones, and they are better, but even then -- not as much as you'd think! The reason Canada wants to re-test people entering the country is that many infected people are entering Canada even though they had a negative PCR. This is something we aren't talking about enough.

The PCR test is only able to pick up covid about 4 or 5 days into the infection, and even at that point, they have a high false negative rate. Someone might have picked up covid 4 days ago, takes the PCR test, and has a fifty-fifty change of it going undetected.

PCR tests do a good job picking it up later into the infection but now you can see the problem with international travel. When you test 3 days before departure, and the person is in an outbreak zone (like Europe and the USA) they might have actually had covid at the time they were tested. And they still have 3 days to pick it up!

My guess is that people with covid arrive into Canada every day, from other countries, even though the test said negative.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> We're not testing people who aren't symptomatic very often.
> 
> And actually rapid tests don't check for the presence of the virus.
> 
> The test aren't actually all that accurate, for asymptomatic people with COVID, they're somewhere around 50% for false negatives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Accurate Are Rapid COVID Tests? What Research Shows
> 
> 
> The risk of getting a false positive result for COVID-19 is relatively low but false negatives are common. Still, a rapid test can be a useful preliminary test.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.healthline.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If testing of asymptomatic people fails to catch 50% of the carriers (ie 50% false negative) I don't think that's good enough.
> 
> 
> Nobody is suggesting continuous mass testing of the population. It might be effective, and arguably less of a human rights violation than the vaccine mandates.
> 
> My opinion is that people relying on rapid tests for "protection" are just as dumb as people relying on vaccination to reduce spread.
> 
> 
> We don't have a good way to identify asymptomatic carriers, and until we do this likely won't end. But we've known that this will simply become endemic anyway. The idea that we'd beat COVID19 was not founded on science from the start.
> The most likley outcome always that eventually we'd lose interest and ideally we'd end up with something less lethal.


I am sure you know statistics. If you apply more than one (let's say every 3 days) then the chances of not catching asymptomatic infection is halved. 0.5^n where n is amount of tests.
Also, if you get r value to 0.5 vs 1 by catching half of asymptomatic spreaders then the wave will die out pretty fast, wouldn't you agree?


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> I am sure you know statistics. If you apply more than one (let's say every 3 days) then the chances of not catching asymptomatic infection is halved. 0.5^n where n is amount of tests.
> Also, if you get r value to 0.5 vs 1 by catching half of asymptomatic spreaders then the wave will die out pretty fast, wouldn't you agree?


And if a vaccinated person has 80% reduction in ability to spread, and 80% of the population is vaccinated you're looking at less than half the spread, it would be more effective than your test everyone, even discounting your 3 day windows.

Even then vaccination didn't work to stop the spread, so I don't think testing alone will stop it.
So no, I don't agree.

With COVID containment, 50% is a fail, not a pass.

FWIW, I'm not advocating for/against testing, I'm just saying that it isn't "enough", just like vaccination "isn't enough".


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> And if a vaccinated person has 80% reduction in ability to spread, and 80% of the population is vaccinated you're looking at less than half the spread, it would be more effective than your test everyone, even discounting your 3 day windows.
> 
> Even then vaccination didn't work to stop the spread, so I don't think testing alone will stop it.
> So no, I don't agree.
> 
> With COVID containment, 50% is a fail, not a pass.
> 
> FWIW, I'm not advocating for/against testing, I'm just saying that it isn't "enough", just like vaccination "isn't enough".


Yeah, if it had 80%.
We can play that game:

if rapid tests had 90% accuracy we would be set
if I would win Lotto Max last week, would be on a beach right now instead of freezing my *** of in Alberta

Can we go back to dealing with reality and facts now?

50% is better than 0% Can we agree on that?
We aren't reaching zero-covid, ever.


----------



## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> My guess is that people with covid arrive into Canada every day, from other countries, even though the test said negative.


Pretty much, how do you think Omicron variant got here? They tested negative before travel given that they needed a negative PCR test to board the plane, but then positive after arrival. There's going to be a delay on how quickly the virus is detectable.


----------



## james4beach

bgc_fan said:


> Pretty much, how do you think Omicron variant got here? They tested negative before travel given that they needed a negative PCR test to board the plane, but then positive after arrival. There's going to be a delay on how quickly the virus is detectable.


I suspect there are a lot more infected people coming through than authorities let on, though.

The 3 day time lag is very significant. I didn't know any of this until I went digging into PCR tests but they will miss *most* infections in the early days (first 1-3 days). This all leads to a false sense of security as well. Travellers are under the impression that they don't have covid.

Anyway it's a very difficult problem, logistically. I think the government has the right idea by testing again on arrival, but it's a logistical nightmare.


----------



## sags

I think a better idea would be to stop all non-essential travel.

I hear people on the media saying they are going to a wedding or surfing vacation in South Africa.

Then they get trapped and are outraged that Canada tells them they are on their own.


----------



## james4beach

Travelling to Europe or Africa right now is an absolutely insane idea. Look at the European numbers... covid is out of control just about everywhere in that region.


----------



## zinfit

The stock market is taking the position that the new variant has mild effects and the reaction by governments are unnecessary and an over reaction. I suspect it will be similar to a cold or mild flu. In a week or so we will know this. If I am right I hope governments will back off with these ill considered travel restrictions and tests.


----------



## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> The 3 day time lag is very significant. I didn't know any of this until I went digging into PCR tests but they will miss *most* infections in the early days (first 1-3 days). This all leads to a false sense of security as well. Travellers are under the impression that they don't have covid.


It's why a false negative is more dangerous than a false positive. Worst case scenario on a false positive is that someone is quarantined when they shouldn't be. False negative? Person is a vector for the virus, spreading it everywhere.



zinfit said:


> The stock market is taking the position that the new variant has mild effects and the reaction by governments are unnecessary and an over reaction. I suspect it will be similar to a cold or mild flu. In a week or so we will know this. If I am right I hope governments will back off with these ill considered travel restrictions and tests.


Jury's still out. The travel restrictions are those of the affected countries? I'm sure they will go away sooner or later. But tests? I doubt that'll change.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> We're not testing people who aren't symptomatic very often.
> 
> And actually rapid tests don't check for the presence of the virus.
> 
> The test aren't actually all that accurate, for asymptomatic people with COVID, they're somewhere around 50% for false negatives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Accurate Are Rapid COVID Tests? What Research Shows
> 
> 
> The risk of getting a false positive result for COVID-19 is relatively low but false negatives are common. Still, a rapid test can be a useful preliminary test.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.healthline.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If testing of asymptomatic people fails to catch 50% of the carriers (ie 50% false negative) I don't think that's good enough.
> 
> 
> Nobody is suggesting continuous mass testing of the population. It might be effective, and arguably less of a human rights violation than the vaccine mandates.
> 
> My opinion is that people relying on rapid tests for "protection" are just as dumb as people relying on vaccination to reduce spread.
> 
> 
> We don't have a good way to identify asymptomatic carriers, and until we do this likely won't end. But we've known that this will simply become endemic anyway. The idea that we'd beat COVID19 was not founded on science from the start.
> The most likley outcome always that eventually we'd lose interest and ideally we'd end up with something less lethal.











U.S. study of 6,000 people finds rapid tests 81 per cent accurate at detecting COVID-19


A new study believed to be the largest of its kind found that antigen rapid tests were overall 81 per cent accurate when compared with PCR test results, and were more accurate the more symptomatic a person was, adding more support to the idea that these tests could be used more widely.




www.ctvnews.ca





Perfect timing. Especially considering your 80% number you pulled out of your behind for vaccine protection from infection


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> U.S. study of 6,000 people finds rapid tests 81 per cent accurate at detecting COVID-19
> 
> 
> A new study believed to be the largest of its kind found that antigen rapid tests were overall 81 per cent accurate when compared with PCR test results, and were more accurate the more symptomatic a person was, adding more support to the idea that these tests could be used more widely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perfect timing. Especially considering your 80% number you pulled out of your behind for vaccine protection from infection


By pulling that 80% number "out of my behind", I believe you mean the Health Canada vaccination tracker?




__





COVID-19 Tracker Canada - Vaccination Tracker


Real-time COVID-19 vaccination updates for every region in Canada, tracking doses of Moderna, Pfizer-BioNTech and AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine delivered and administered to Canadians.



covid19tracker.ca




And the Ontario report


https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/epi/covid-19-vaccine-uptake-ontario-epi-summary.pdf?la=en


"• 80.3% (11,253,715 individuals) of the Ontario population 5 years of age and older are fully vaccinated and 83.5% (11,693,116 individuals) have received at least one dose of a COVID19 vaccine. "

Also, the article you linked to was posted 2 hours after my post.
Also if you read the study it's clear that false negatives are still a serious problem, though they decline to actually report a false negative rate.
"Hence, a negative result does not preclude infection from a clinical and public health perspective."








Implementation and Accuracy of BinaxNOW Rapid Antigen COVID-19 Test in Asymptomatic and Symptomatic Populations in a High-Volume Self-Referred Testing Site | Microbiology Spectrum


The BinaxNOW rapid antigen COVID-19 test had a sensitivity of 87% in symptomatic and 71% asymptomatic individuals when performed by health care workers in a high-throughput setting. The performance may expedite isolation decisions or referrals for time-...



journals.asm.org







damian13ster said:


> Can we go back to dealing with reality and facts now?


Okay, you insult me by suggesting that I pulled "numbers out of my behind", arrogantly post links to recently released studies and articles that don't actually counteract my data or argument.

The fact is that a negative rapid test result is, from the public health perspective, not very useful. 
Which is the point I was making, and confirmed in the research *YOU* linked to. 

Now if you want to debate facts, can you at least pull together something that either proves your point, or disproves mine? Though I do appreciate you pulling up data that supports my position. I particularly appreciate that your chosen research contains a quote that so succintly encapsulates my position. "a *negative result does not preclude infection* from a clinical and public health perspective."



> 50% is better than 0% Can we agree on that?


I think we can agree that 50% is better than 0%, just as 1% is better than 0%.
I think we can also agree that it is likely an expensive plan with low effectiveness isn't worth it.



> We aren't reaching zero-covid, ever.


I've been saying that since March 2020.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> The stock market is taking the position that the new variant has mild effects and the reaction by governments are unnecessary and an over reaction. I suspect it will be similar to a cold or mild flu. In a week or so we will know this. If I am right I hope governments will back off with these ill considered travel restrictions and tests.


Omicron doesn't make a difference for travel restrictions. Whatever the mutation at play is, Europe has horrific numbers and we should be very careful about flights coming in from Europe.

Our numbers are currently some of the lowest in the world but the clock is ticking now. We're going to see an increase, just like Europe / US.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> By pulling that 80% number "out of my behind", I believe you mean the Health Canada vaccination tracker?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Tracker Canada - Vaccination Tracker
> 
> 
> Real-time COVID-19 vaccination updates for every region in Canada, tracking doses of Moderna, Pfizer-BioNTech and AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine delivered and administered to Canadians.
> 
> 
> 
> covid19tracker.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the Ontario report
> 
> 
> https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/epi/covid-19-vaccine-uptake-ontario-epi-summary.pdf?la=en
> 
> 
> "• 80.3% (11,253,715 individuals) of the Ontario population 5 years of age and older are fully vaccinated and 83.5% (11,693,116 individuals) have received at least one dose of a COVID19 vaccine. "
> 
> Also, the article you linked to was posted 2 hours after my post.
> Also if you read the study it's clear that false negatives are still a serious problem, though they decline to actually report a false negative rate.
> "Hence, a negative result does not preclude infection from a clinical and public health perspective."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Implementation and Accuracy of BinaxNOW Rapid Antigen COVID-19 Test in Asymptomatic and Symptomatic Populations in a High-Volume Self-Referred Testing Site | Microbiology Spectrum
> 
> 
> The BinaxNOW rapid antigen COVID-19 test had a sensitivity of 87% in symptomatic and 71% asymptomatic individuals when performed by health care workers in a high-throughput setting. The performance may expedite isolation decisions or referrals for time-...
> 
> 
> 
> journals.asm.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, you insult me by suggesting that I pulled "numbers out of my behind", arrogantly post links to recently released studies and articles that don't actually counteract my data or argument.
> 
> The fact is that a negative rapid test result is, from the public health perspective, not very useful.
> Which is the point I was making, and confirmed in the research *YOU* linked to.
> 
> Now if you want to debate facts, can you at least pull together something that either proves your point, or disproves mine? Though I do appreciate you pulling up data that supports my position. I particularly appreciate that your chosen research contains a quote that so succintly encapsulates my position. "a *negative result does not preclude infection* from a clinical and public health perspective."
> 
> 
> I think we can agree that 50% is better than 0%, just as 1% is better than 0%.
> I think we can also agree that it is likely an expensive plan with low effectiveness isn't worth it.
> 
> 
> I've been saying that since March 2020.


I think you misunderstood me.
Your post had two references to 80%:

"And if a vaccinated person has 80% reduction in ability to spread, and 80% of the population is vaccinated"

I am not disputing the latter instance of 80%, but the former.
If you felt insulted because you thought I am referring to vaccination rate, then my bad.


Nowhere did I claim that false negative aren't a problem. Of course they are. If you catch 81% of infections, or ~70%, then you are in much better shape than if you catch none.

Yes, that's what I found amusing, that the article popped up right after you posted - there was nothing nefarious about the statement. I am aware the article wasn't out at the moment and nowhere did I assume you ignored it.

The plan itself is actually not very expensive. It is tiny portion of all ineffective measures that were introduced (did the math after Ontario announcement of rapid tests for kids that came with a price tag), and if it catches 70, 80% (I am rounding the numbers from the article), or even 50% of infection, then it would be immense progress in limiting the spread at small fraction of the money which were spent on measures which were useless in stopping it.


----------



## damian13ster

https://www.ahri.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/MEDRXIV-2021-267417v1-Sigal.pdf



Wow. Looks like Pfizer offers 41 times less protection against omicron than original strain!
Natural immunity holds up well though.

Still need to wait for more data as sample size is small.
More and more indications of omicron being perfect variant to end the pandemic though


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> I think you misunderstood me.
> Your post had two references to 80%:
> 
> "And if a vaccinated person has 80% reduction in ability to spread, and 80% of the population is vaccinated"
> 
> I am not disputing the latter instance of 80%, but the former.
> If you felt insulted because you thought I am referring to vaccination rate, then my bad.


Well I was referring to both.
See below.








How much less likely are you to spread covid-19 if you're vaccinated?


Vaccination still greatly reduces the risk of infecting others despite the arrival of the delta variant, recent studies show




www.newscientist.com




"But even assuming vaccination only halves the risk of infection, *this would still imply that vaccines reduce transmission by more than 80 per cent overall*."


"Others have worked out the full effect. Earlier this year, Ottavia Prunas at Yale University applied two different models to data from Israel, where the Pfizer vaccine was used. Her team’s conclusion was that the overall vaccine effectiveness against transmission was 89 per cent."




> Nowhere did I claim that false negative aren't a problem. Of course they are. If you catch 81% of infections, or ~70%, then you are in much better shape than if you catch none.


Again, I'm not concerned about catching, I'm concerned about not catching. The false negatives are exactly why the test adds little to no value.
Think about it, if the test is positive for COVID, you have COVID, great.
If the test is negative for COVID you still might have COVID



> The plan itself is actually not very expensive.


I think it's unworkably expensive.
I personally don't like clicking on the daily COVID screener website for my kids to go to school.
I sure don't want to be running a dozen COVID19 tests/week in my house, let alone pay for them
At $40/test, every 3 days, that's $500/wk for a family of 4.








You can now buy a rapid COVID-19 test at Shoppers Drug Mart locations in Ontario


One of Ontario’s biggest retail pharmacy chains will now offer rapid antigen COVID-19 tests across the province.



toronto.ctvnews.ca





Or for Canada 38 million * $40 * 2/week = $3B/week. Even if you assume a 70% retail markup its $1B/wk.
And of course the negative result just gives people a false sense of security.



> It is tiny portion of all ineffective measures that were introduced (did the math after Ontario announcement of rapid tests for kids that came with a price tag), and if it catches 70, 80% (I am rounding the numbers from the article), or even 50% of infection, then it would be immense progress in limiting the spread at small fraction of the money which were spent on measures which were useless in stopping it.


If everyone who is symptomatic with COVID like symptoms (ie the case where the rapid antigen test has 70-80+ effectiveness) quarantines, it would work even better at a fraction of the cost.

I'm not sure what measures you refer to as "useless".
Masking and handwashing aren't that expensive.

Quarantining those who are sick is still part of your plan. I think even with vaccination we should quarantine sick people.


----------



## zinfit

The early data coming from people with three shots is showing a very high level of protection against Omicron. It is time that we relaxed and quit tying our shorts in knots over vaccines. Pfiser just released some very encouraging information on this subject.


----------



## damian13ster

Your article states 63%, not 80% - hence the 80% being made up number.
The previous article posted here does also mention that for AZ it drops to 0 after 3 months. They noted it drops significantly for Pfizer but didn't give a number.
The higher number listed in the article (only ones above 80%) refer to original variant - what is the prevalence of original variant in society? How relevant is that information?
Scientific research paper on effect of Pfizer on Delta did give a number - 20% after 4 months.
If my max speed is 25km/h, that doesn't mean I can beat world record in marathon. Unless you suggest boosters every 4 weeks.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> The early data coming from people with three shots is showing a very high level of protection against Omicron. It is time that we relaxed and quit tying our shorts in knots over vaccines. Pfiser just released some very encouraging information on this subject.


 ... don't worry these gangsters will be the first in/online for the 3rd shot whilst the hard-core anti-vaxxers are trying to figure out where their next paycheck is coming from whilst blogging to solicit donations from their so-called supporters/suckers.


----------



## Money172375

for those waiting for boosters in Ontario. Dec 13 is the opening to book for those born before 1971. I was hoping it would be this week to allow for some greater protection for the inevitable holiday gatherings.

not sure if this is a loophole or I did something bad. The ontario booking site starts with some eligibility questions to determine if you can book. my mom was born in the 50s so she’ll be eligible on Dec 13 to book. She also has cancer but her oncologist has been reluctant to give her a referral for an expedited shot (even though she was under radiation treatment recently). 

so, in my efforts to get a shot quickly, I was able to find a link that goes directly to the booking site….bypassing the preliminary eligibility questions. I was able to book her for a shot on Dec 18. 

again, not sure if this is a loophole or not……she’ll be eligible to book and receive a shot on Dec 13, so hopefully there’s no harm done.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Likely no loophole since the demand may not be there ... yet. 

Anyhow, suggest you let your mom's oncologist know that she's booked/getting her 3rd shot based on your comment that he/she was hesistant to refer her for it.


----------



## HappilyRetired

zinfit said:


> The early data coming from people with three shots is showing a very high level of protection against Omicron. It is time that we relaxed and quit tying our shorts in knots over vaccines. Pfiser just released some very encouraging information on this subject.


Omicron has a 0% fatality rate. We don't even know if a vaccine is needed.

Of course Pfizer wants everyone to take another shot. Follow the money.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Omicron has a 0% fatality rate. We don't even know if a vaccine is needed.
> 
> Of course Pfizer wants everyone to take another shot. Follow the money.


 ... of course, no vaccine is required as if the earlier variants have disappeared. Might as scratch your dense head and spew "What pandemic"? 

Of course, follow the money ... also to Moderna, Johnson&Johnson, AstraZeneca, Janssen and soon our very own home-grown Mediago. 

Remember the vaccine is still voluntary! And the air belongs to everyone on this planet.


----------



## sags

It looks like the Delta variant will continue on even if the Omicron turns out to be less severe.

An upswing in hospitalizations and ICU cases in Ontario are almost all from the Delta variant.

And then.....we gotta hope that the unvaccinated populations don't serve as incubators for yet another variant of concern.


----------



## damian13ster

We need to identify Omicron here and spread it as quickly as possible to push out Delta.
We already know it has higher infection rate so it will happen naturally, but if we speed up the process, then Delta will be out of here sooner.


----------



## sags

Omicron won't "push out" Delta.

People can get infected by one or both variants.

Herd immunity is a fallacy. Previous infections don't provide sufficient antibodies or don't recognize a new variant.

Wishing and hoping is a poor substitute for science.


----------



## damian13ster

Of course it will. Same as Beta pushed out Alpha
Same as Delta pushed out Beta.
Virus that spreads more easily pushes out previous variants.
Seeing how you ignore science, do you at least believe that Earth revolves around Sun or want to burn the heretics at stake?

According to the study from South Africa, it is far superior to Pfizer vaccine for one very simple reason. It doesn't just focus on spike proteins, but it recognizes multiple parts of the virus, so a single mutation to spike protein won't evade it.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... of course, no vaccine is required as if the earlier variants have disappeared. Might as scratch your dense head and spew "What pandemic"?


You have yet to prove yourself less dense than others.


----------



## damian13ster

AstraZeneca discovered why their COVID vaccine causes blood clots:









ChAdOx1 interacts with CAR and PF4 with implications for thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome


We observe previously unknown interactions between clinically important adenovirus vector capsids, platelet factor 4, and CAR.




www.science.org


----------



## bgc_fan

A couple of good Canadian stories:
1. Medicago is progressing. The plant-based vaccine is interesting and I recall seeing it tried before in other applications, but good to see it going: Medicago and GSK announce positive Phase 3 efficacy and safety results for adjuvanted plant-based COVID-19 vaccine candidate | Medicago
2. McMaster progressing on their inhaled vaccine which can give an option to those who don't like needles: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hami...university-inhaled-covid-19-vaccine-1.6276462


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Your article states 63%, not 80% - hence the 80% being made up number.


Which article?
This one, where I pulled this quote?








How much less likely are you to spread covid-19 if you're vaccinated?


Vaccination still greatly reduces the risk of infecting others despite the arrival of the delta variant, recent studies show




www.newscientist.com




"But even assuming vaccination only halves the risk of infection, *this would still imply that vaccines reduce transmission by more than 80 per cent overall*." 



> The previous article posted here does also mention that for AZ it drops to 0 after 3 months. They noted it drops significantly for Pfizer but didn't give a number.


Yes, and other studies show this going to marginal after 5-6 months, which is why I've been calling for boosters for months.
I think getting more boosters to more people will likely be more impactful than trying to argue with the vaccine holdout.s



> The higher number listed in the article (only ones above 80%) refer to original variant - what is the prevalence of original variant in society? How relevant is that information?
> Scientific research paper on effect of Pfizer on Delta did give a number - 20% after 4 months.
> If my max speed is 25km/h, that doesn't mean I can beat world record in marathon. Unless you suggest boosters every 4 weeks.


Glad you finally got to more nuanced critiques, and sure there is merit.
But back to my actual position, testing based and vaccine based controls aren't good enough.

Go back to my posts from around May 2020, that's when I was talking about 6 month boosters being a "best case", as Coronaviruses normally mutates far too fast, which is why we have never really had a good Coronavirus vaccine.
Even then I suggested that if they can't get at least 4 months between boosters, people will tire of the constant vaccination quickly. 

It's interesting that I'm basically restating my position on COVID from 18 months ago.


----------



## MrMatt

MrMatt said:


> It's interesting that I'm basically restating my position on COVID from 18 months ago.


Just for fun I'll quote myself.



MrMatt said:


> Betting on a vaccine to get us out of this mess is like betting on a lottery win for retirement.


----------



## HappilyRetired

zinfit said:


> The early data coming from people with three shots is showing a very high level of protection against Omicron. It is time that we relaxed and quit tying our shorts in knots over vaccines. Pfiser just released some very encouraging information on this subject.


Pfizer says 3 shots is high level protection against a variant that just came out last week. And you aren't skeptical in the slightest. 😂 😂 😂


----------



## zinfit

HappilyRetired said:


> Pfizer says 3 shots is high level protection against a variant that just came out last week. And you aren't skeptical in the slightest. 😂 😂 😂


 Some hospitals in the USA are saying 100% of the covid admissions are the unvaccinated.. Overall it is pretty clear that the number is in the 90% plus range. That isn't Pfizer it is public health data.


----------



## damian13ster

Interesting statistics coming out of UK:



https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1037987/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-48.pdf



Pages 30-32 have tables with cases, hospitalizations, ICUs.

UK has 68.3% of their population fully vaccinated.


https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-people-fully-vaccinated-covid?tab=table



ICUs: 60.2% fully vaccinated
Deaths: 77.0% fully vaccinated


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> Interesting statistics coming out of UK:
> 
> 
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1037987/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-48.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Pages 30-32 have tables with cases, hospitalizations, ICUs.
> 
> UK has 68.3% of their population fully vaccinated.
> 
> 
> https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-people-fully-vaccinated-covid?tab=table
> 
> 
> 
> ICUs: 60.2% fully vaccinated
> Deaths: 77.0% fully vaccinated


Yes, thanks for showing how effective vaccines are. Helps to actually show the differences in the cohorts since age is a significant factor. Basically, when comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated in the same age group, you can see the rates of unvaccinated people dying up to 6 times.


----------



## Spudd

damian13ster said:


> Interesting statistics coming out of UK:
> 
> 
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1037987/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-48.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Pages 30-32 have tables with cases, hospitalizations, ICUs.
> 
> UK has 68.3% of their population fully vaccinated.
> 
> 
> https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-people-fully-vaccinated-covid?tab=table
> 
> 
> 
> ICUs: 60.2% fully vaccinated
> Deaths: 77.0% fully vaccinated


Yes, this is quite a good table.










Thanks for posting, it reconfirms the importance of vaccination.


----------



## damian13ster

a) there is not a single age group in which it is 6 times. One should also look at data. The numbers don't reconcile. How do you have 77% of deaths with 68% fully vaccinated without having a single age group with higher rate?
Will have to look at it deeper, considering this is the only table in which they state it has to be read with conjunction and not stand-alone. Other tables have no such disclaimer

b) never did I deny that they decrease hospitalizations/deaths. Always state the same: decrease hospitalizations/deaths, don't stop the spread, that's why I believe people should get vaccinated, and that saying you are protecting others and not just yourself is a lie. Of course faced with data showing different results, might have to reconsider
Page 26:
The rate of a positive COVID-19 test varies by age and vaccination status. The rate of a positive COVID-19 test is substantially lower in vaccinated individuals compared to unvaccinated individuals up to the age of 29. In individuals aged greater than 30, the rate of a positive COVID-19 test is higher in vaccinated individuals compared to unvaccinated

c) numbers cited here in Canada and in the thread range from 27 times protection, 90% people hospitalized being unvaccinated, etc.

Just providing actual data and no commentary to it. Everyone can look at facts and determine things for themselves


----------



## zinfit

the CDC says the chances of dying from covid is 29 times higher for the unvaccinated.


----------



## zinfit

bgc_fan said:


> Yes, thanks for showing how effective vaccines are. Helps to actually show the differences in the cohorts since age is a significant factor. Basically, when comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated in the same age group, you can see the rates of unvaccinated people dying up to 6 times.
> 
> View attachment 22444


Must thank Damian for providing very conclusive and strong evidence in favor of vaccinations. This is data for a country which put a lot of emphasize on the Astrazenca vaccine.


----------



## damian13ster

Also mathematically impossible 😂 But who cares about math or science, right?
Will investigate and read all the disclaimers and material that has to be read with conjunction to Table 11 later.

Or did you already read all the materials that have to be read with conjunction before drawing any conclusions from this table?


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> the CDC says the chances of dying from covid is 29 times higher for the unvaccinated.


Do they have any data to support that? Or just political statement not based on science?
Because the table shows 2-5x depending on which age group


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Also mathematically impossible 😂 But who cares about math or science, right?
> Will investigate and read all the disclaimers and material that has to be read with conjunction to Table 11 later.
> 
> Or did you already read all the materials that have to be read with conjunction before drawing any conclusions from this table?


 ... you're the one who provided this report with the disclaimer to support your interpretations aka spins. Sucker.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> a) there is not a single age group in which it is 6 times. One should also look at data. The numbers don't reconcile. How do you have 77% of deaths with 68% fully vaccinated without having a single age group with higher rate?
> Will have to look at it deeper, considering this is the only table in which they state it has to be read with conjunction and not stand-alone. Other tables have no such disclaimer
> 
> b) never did I deny that they decrease hospitalizations/deaths. Always state the same: decrease hospitalizations/deaths, don't stop the spread, that's why I believe people should get vaccinated, and that saying you are protecting others and not just yourself is a lie. Of course faced with data showing different results, might have to reconsider
> Page 26:
> The rate of a positive COVID-19 test varies by age and vaccination status. The rate of a positive COVID-19 test is substantially lower in vaccinated individuals compared to unvaccinated individuals up to the age of 29. In individuals aged greater than 30, the rate of a positive COVID-19 test is higher in vaccinated individuals compared to unvaccinated
> 
> c) numbers cited here in Canada and in the thread range from 27 times protection, 90% people hospitalized being unvaccinated, etc.
> 
> Just providing actual data and no commentary to it. Everyone can look at facts and determine things for themselves


You say you deal with analytics? Analytics is more than just looking at averages, it's about data mining and looking patterns to explain certain issues.

So I rounded up on the age 50-59 from 2.4 to 12.9. Happy if I say that up to over 5 times is better for you?

You didn't even look at what the disclaimer said. Most of it is referring to possible confounding factors like the fact that those who get the vaccine are those who care about their health and may be take the vaccine because they want to live (paraphrase). Or that they say you shouldn't use it to determine vaccine effectiveness, instead use this data which undermines your argument even more.










I see you like taking things out of context and providing half-quotes. So from page *28*. BTW the footnotes that were attached to that summary table I presented are all the points here on the interpretation of data. Basically it's stating that there may be some differences between the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations in that those who are vaccinated are going to be the those who are the most vulnerable or likely to get covid due to their occupation, social interactions, etc. But at the end of the day, what matters is that vaccinations will reduce hospitalization and death.











Of course you just present data, because to actually comment on it, would require doing more than just copy and pasting, or providing a source link.

I don't even know why you are arguing. Before telling others to read, maybe you should read it first.


----------



## damian13ster

No, because comments are biased.
Raw numbers are not.

Let's just say your example of 6 times.
How you arrived there?
You took a single data point with highest difference between vaccinated vs unvaccinated:
2.4 - 12.9 
The data point shows 5.38 times effectiveness.
You rounded it to 6.
Then made a generic statement for all age groups based on that.

Meanwhile, even looking at Table 11 The numbers are:
18-29: 2 times
30-39: 5 times
40-49: 3.5 times
50-59: 5.4 times
60-69: 4.0 times
70-79: 3.4 times
80+: 2.6 times


This is why one should supply data and not narrative.
Not for lack of effort, but to avoid what you just did with Table 11


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> No, because comments are biased.
> Raw numbers are not.
> 
> Let's just say your example of 6 times.
> How you arrived there?
> You took a single data point with highest difference between vaccinated vs unvaccinated:
> 2.4 - 12.9
> The data point shows 5.38 times effectiveness.
> You rounded it to 6.
> Then made a generic statement for all age groups based on that.
> 
> Meanwhile, even looking at Table 11 The numbers are:
> 18-29: 2 times
> 30-39: 5 times
> 40-49: 3.5 times
> 50-59: 5.4 times
> 60-69: 4.0 times
> 70-79: 3.4 times
> 80+: 2.6 times
> 
> 
> This is why one should supply data and not narrative.
> Not for lack of effort, but to avoid what you just did with Table 11


I see you like getting caught in the details. Since you don't want to discuss narrative, then why not stop arguing or actually give some useful insight from the report that YOU provided.


----------



## damian13ster

Aren't you capable of deducing it yourself? Without creative rounding?
Assuming that table 11 was created by looking at death numbers in age group and compared to vaccination rate in that specific age group:

1. Vaccinations provide certain protection from death.
2. That protection ranges from 2-5.4 times depending on age group.
3. Vaccines don't protect from infections
4. Vaccinating young people has very little effect on the pandemic
5. If we want to drop case numbers, vaccinated people can't adjust their behavior based on vaccination status.
6. We should all just get infected with Omicron while we have a chance


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> Aren't you capable of deducing it yourself? Without creative rounding?
> Assuming that table 11 was created by looking at death numbers in age group and compared to vaccination rate in that specific age group:
> 
> 1. Vaccinations provide certain protection from death.
> 2. That protection ranges from 2-5.4 times depending on age group.
> 3. Vaccines don't protect from infections
> 4. Vaccinating young people has very little effect on the pandemic
> 5. If we want to drop case numbers, vaccinated people can't adjust their behavior based on vaccination status.
> 6. We should all just get infected with Omicron while we have a chance


I think it was pretty obvious what I was getting at. Didn't think you had any idea on what you were getting at since you said you were just reporting the data, and kept harping on the fact that there were footnotes on the table to further your point which you never articulated. I'm not sure why you say assuming, this is a report you found, don't you have any faith in the numbers? Or do you just post things without reading first?

So, basically I don't see why you keep arguing with the others. It seems that everyone is in agreement that vaccines work and people should get vaccinated. 

You seem to think that just because vaccinated people get infected and don't die that it's not an issue (i.e. children), yet you keep pushing the narrative that vaccination doesn't reduce transmission. We know that vaccinated people will have a decreased viral load compared to unvaccinated, which would stand to reason that they are less likely to transmit. Decreased SARS-CoV-2 viral load following vaccination. And obviously as numbers of vaccinated people increase, you're going to see an increase in vaccinated people getting breakthrough cases. That's how numbers work.

Funny that you want to talk about case numbers, I remember at the beginning of the pandemic it was all about the deaths and hospitalization rates, who cares about case numbers. Yet, now that deaths and hospitalizations rates are decreasing for vaccinated people, case numbers are suddenly important again. At any case, we're starting to see a decouping of case numbers and deaths because of high vaccination rates, meaning that increased cases doesn't necessarily mean increased death rates which was the concern when we didn't have vaccines.

As for changing behaviours. If you're advocating lockdowns again, please do so, because that was our only answer to reduce the caseload when we didn't have a vaccine available.

As for getting infected with Omicron, well, the jury is going to be out for a while to see if that actually provides any protection as effective as vaccination.


----------



## damian13ster

No. I believe everyone is in agreement that vaccines work in helping prevent hospitalizations and deaths. At least did until Omicron
Some people still claim, despite data, that vaccines work in preventing infections. They don't.
Higher covid cases are correlated with higher vaccination rate. Even this report says that vaccinated have higher case numbers for ages 30+.
That is reflected in my points 3. and 5.
More vaccination and lies about vaccines effectiveness lead to more infections. That's a fact.

And the fact that the infections rise, don't drop, with higher vaccination is absolutely crucial when determining legality of Charter violation applying Oakes test.

Breaking of Charter is literally based on a lie that vaccines prevent infections.
This is precisely why the lies keep coming despite scientific, verified, published evidence that show it is indeed a lie.


----------



## Eder

zinfit said:


> the CDC says the chances of dying from covid is 29 times higher for the unvaccinated.


Sounds like results since Covid began...all deaths the first year were non vaccinated people.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> Higher covid cases are correlated with higher vaccination rate. Even this report says that vaccinated have higher case numbers for ages 30+.
> That is reflected in my points 3. and 5.
> *More vaccination and lies about vaccines effectiveness lead to more infections. That's a fact.*
> 
> And the fact that the infections rise, don't drop, with higher vaccination is absolutely crucial when determining legality of Charter violation applying Oakes test.


You realize that you are messing up the interpretation of the data. 
Vaccinations don't stop infections. Yes. However, they reduce the viral load so that symptoms and effects are reduced. That includes transmission.
You seem to be interpreting the data as, more vaccinations equals more infections which is leading to the correlation equals causation fallacy. You ever think about why there might be difference at that age category? Read the notes yourself since you obviously didn't. I'll spell it out for you: those who were vaccinated are likely those who may be vulnerable or placed in social situations where they are likely to get covid. Also, they are more likely to get tested, so the unvaccinated in that age cohort may have more people untested that have covid, but they aren't being accounted for because they don't think they have it. 

As for the bold statement, that's an opinion, not fact. You can simply look to the fact that as vaccination rates increased, cases and deaths have generally decreased. There were spikes with delta, but that effect seems to have subsided. 

I'm not sure why you want to bring the Oakes test into this. That's a legislative issue, not a science issue.

Really, you seem to be all over the place. Infections are rising, but as long as the hospitalization rate is manageable, there isn't too much of an issue. And of course, the vast proportion of those covid cases are unvaccinated, so I don't see how you can argue that vaccines are ineffective.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> You realize that you are messing up the interpretation of the data.
> Vaccinations don't stop infections. Yes. However, they reduce the viral load so that symptoms and effects are reduced. That includes transmission.
> You seem to be interpreting the data as, more vaccinations equals more infections which is leading to the correlation equals causation fallacy. You ever think about why there might be difference at that age category? Read the notes yourself since you obviously didn't. I'll spell it out for you: those who were vaccinated are likely those who may be vulnerable or placed in social situations where they are likely to get covid. Also, they are more likely to get tested, so the unvaccinated in that age cohort may have more people untested that have covid, but they aren't being accounted for because they don't think they have it.
> 
> As for the bold statement, that's an opinion, not fact. You can simply look to the fact that as vaccination rates increased, cases and deaths have generally decreased. There were spikes with delta, but that effect seems to have subsided.
> 
> I'm not sure why you want to bring the Oakes test into this. That's a legislative issue, not a science issue.
> 
> Really, you seem to be all over the place. Infections are rising, but as long as the hospitalization rate is manageable, there isn't too much of an issue. *And of course, the vast proportion of those covid cases are unvaccinated, so I don't see how you can argue that vaccines are ineffective.*


I am not messing up the interpretation.

More vaccines and lies about their effect = more infections.
Whether vaccines by themselves help a tiny bit in preventing infections? Probably, as according to the Qatar study Pfizer drops infections by 20% after 4 months (other cited sources here show AZ drops infection by 0% after 3 months). Clearly this is more than offset by lies about their effect though because again:
Vaccination + the lies = more infections

Yes, I want to bring Oakes test into this. You assume that people lying and denying science are simply unaware of the research? Or do you think they do that so majority of legislations they introduced is not deemed illegal? Sadly science here is ignored for politics (legislation)

And your bolded statement is wrong.
Published scientific paper studying vaccination rate effect on case numbers, which analyzed 86 countries and over 2000 counties shows that higher the number of vaccinated, the higher the number of cases.
So lower the number of unvaccinated, the higher the number of cases.

How do you arrive at your bolded statement then?

I am not all over the place. It is very simple:

vaccines and lies about their effectiveness don't help infections - in fact, they increase case numbers
vaccines are effective in slowing hospitalizations and deaths
they are less effective in slowing hospitalizations and deaths than CDC, PHAC, and mass media says.

And of course we don't know if they help with Omicron at all


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> I am not all over the place. It is very simple:
> 
> vaccines and lies about their effectiveness don't help infections - in fact, they increase case number


That's the most outrageous claim I've heard yet.
Can you show any data that getting vaccinated makes you more susceptible to getting COVID19?
That's just ridiculous. You really need to substantiate that claim.



> vaccines are effective in slowing hospitalizations and deaths


That's the main reason to get vaccinated.



> they are less effective in slowing hospitalizations and deaths than CDC, PHAC, and mass media says.


I'm not sure what you mean here.
regarding PHAC & CDC
Unless you're suggesting they're falsifying data, I don't see how this is possible.

Regarding the mass media, they are generally incompetent at reporting simple facts, and they're almost completely incapable of reporting/communicating any scientific data effectively.



> And of course we don't know if they help with Omicron at all


We have some data, but the early data out there already says Omicron is a non issue.
It doesn't seem to be killing or hospitalizing people. If people aren't getting seriously hurt, I don't care.

Honestly it looks like Omicron might be the end we were hoping for, a far less lethal variant that we can, for the most part, ignore.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> That's the most outrageous claim I've heard yet.
> Can you show any data that getting vaccinated makes you more susceptible to getting COVID19?
> That's just ridiculous. You really need to substantiate that claim.
> 
> 
> That's the main reason to get vaccinated.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean here.
> regarding PHAC & CDC
> Unless you're suggesting they're falsifying data, I don't see how this is possible.
> 
> Regarding the mass media, they are generally incompetent at reporting simple facts, and they're almost completely incapable of reporting/communicating any scientific data effectively.
> 
> 
> We have some data, but the early data out there already says Omicron is a non issue.
> It doesn't seem to be killing or hospitalizing people. If people aren't getting seriously hurt, I don't care.
> 
> Honestly it looks like Omicron might be the end we were hoping for, a far less lethal variant that we can, for the most part, ignore.


I did:








Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States







www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





Direct quote:
"In fact, the trend line suggests a marginally positive association such that countries with higher percentage of population fully vaccinated have higher COVID-19 cases per 1 million people."

And look at my entire paragraph:

More vaccines and lies about their effect = more infections.
Whether vaccines by themselves help a tiny bit in preventing infections? Probably, as according to the Qatar study Pfizer drops infections by 20% after 4 months (other cited sources here show AZ drops infection by 0% after 3 months). Clearly this is more than offset by lies about their effect though because again:
Vaccination + the lies = more infections

This equation is true. I have no reason to believe that vaccinations increase infections.
Clearly though either no effect or small positive effect on infection rates from vaccines is more than negated by negative effect from the lies, resulting in more infections.

Ex:
If vaccines protect from 10% of infections (average of 0% from AZ, 20% from Pfizer after 4 months)
Then lies which lead to behavior adjustment increase infections by more than 10%

Omicron is a massive issue. If there is still push for mandates and human rights abuse despite science showing that protection from Pfizer is 41-fold weaker compared to original strain, then it clearly shows what the priorities are
I agree though, if we allow it, it can be the end of this pandemic


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> This equation is true. I have no reason to believe that vaccinations increase infections.
> Clearly though either no effect or small positive effect on infection rates from vaccines is more than negated by negative effect from the lies, resulting in more infections.


Okay I get it, the lies about the impact of vaccines resulted in behaviour change that increased spread. 
Not the actual vaccine.



> Omicron is a massive issue. If there is still push for mandates and human rights abuse despite science showing that protection from Pfizer is 41-fold weaker compared to original strain, then it clearly shows what the priorities are
> I agree though, if we allow it, it can be the end of this pandemic


Tinfoil hat time.

It's about control and power.

They're using COVID to implement a Chinese style surveillance state.
If that is Trudeaus goal, he could likely save a bunch of money by using Huawei technology instead of the poor reimplementation they're making here.

Really if it was about protection, the idiocy with using the app vs using paper forms to skip quarantine should be a non issue.
Why will they let you move "freely" with the app, but if you do the exact same steps in paper, they want to lock you up.

I've been willing to accept incompetence for a while, I have a pretty low opinion, but at this point it seems that all these "misteps" are due solely to incompetence.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> I am not messing up the interpretation.
> 
> More vaccines and lies about their effect = more infections.
> Whether vaccines by themselves help a tiny bit in preventing infections? Probably, as according to the Qatar study Pfizer drops infections by 20% after 4 months (other cited sources here show AZ drops infection by 0% after 3 months). Clearly this is more than offset by lies about their effect though because again:
> Vaccination + the lies = more infections
> 
> Yes, I want to bring Oakes test into this. You assume that people lying and denying science are simply unaware of the research? Or do you think they do that so majority of legislations they introduced is not deemed illegal? Sadly science here is ignored for politics (legislation)
> 
> And your bolded statement is wrong.
> Published scientific paper studying vaccination rate effect on case numbers, which analyzed 86 countries and over 2000 counties shows that higher the number of vaccinated, the higher the number of cases.
> So lower the number of unvaccinated, the higher the number of cases.
> 
> How do you arrive at your bolded statement then?
> 
> I am not all over the place. It is very simple:
> 
> vaccines and lies about their effectiveness don't help infections - in fact, they increase case numbers
> vaccines are effective in slowing hospitalizations and deaths
> they are less effective in slowing hospitalizations and deaths than CDC, PHAC, and mass media says.
> 
> And of course we don't know if they help with Omicron at all


You seem to think everyone is lying and not considering the fact that with science, things change and what someone says at one point may not end up being true because something changed in the interim. 

So what is the big lie that you find the government is perpetuating? That vaccinations are going to help get us through the covid situation? Because that's what it looks like you are arguing. The exact opposite stance would be that we shouldn't vaccinate. 

That bolded statement was YOUR statement. So now you're saying that your own statement was wrong? You want to provide the scientific paper link? 

Because you are seriously mixing correlation with causation. This is exactly the type of "proof" that lockdowns don't work. Basically cases go up, we have a lockdown, after a delay cases go down, we lift the lockdown, after a delay they go back up, and then people complain saying lockdowns don't work. Your "higher the number of vaccinations and higher number of cases argument" can look at the following: 
















Strange, looks like Canada, Japan, and Sweden have the highest vaccination rates, but have the lowest new daily confirmed cases. UK, Germany and US have the lowest and have the highest new daily cases. Doesn't seem like there's a positive correlation.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> *Okay I get it, the lies about the impact of vaccines resulted in behaviour change that increased spread.
> Not the actual vaccine.*
> 
> 
> Tinfoil hat time.
> 
> It's about control and power.
> 
> They're using COVID to implement a Chinese style surveillance state.
> If that is Trudeaus goal, he could likely save a bunch of money by using Huawei technology instead of the poor reimplementation they're making here.
> 
> Really if it was about protection, the idiocy with using the app vs using paper forms to skip quarantine should be a non issue.
> Why will they let you move "freely" with the app, but if you do the exact same steps in paper, they want to lock you up.
> 
> I've been willing to accept incompetence for a while, I have a pretty low opinion, but at this point it seems that all these "misteps" are due solely to incompetence.


Precisely. The lies increased the spread more than vaccines decreased it.

And on the latter point, I have no idea if what is going on is by design or by pure incompetence, but I am straight up scared. The willingness and length that government goes in order to destroy privacy and human rights is one thing.
The latter is willingness of Canadian citizens to cheer for human rights abuse, and to cheer for policies and lies that increase the spread and prolong their pandemic, just so those that have slightly different world view from them can have their lives destroyed. It is surreal


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> You seem to think everyone is lying and not considering the fact that with science, things change and what someone says at one point may not end up being true because something changed in the interim.
> 
> So what is the big lie that you find the government is perpetuating? That vaccinations are going to help get us through the covid situation? Because that's what it looks like you are arguing. The exact opposite stance would be that we shouldn't vaccinate.
> 
> That bolded statement was YOUR statement. So now you're saying that your own statement was wrong? You want to provide the scientific paper link?
> 
> Because you are seriously mixing correlation with causation. This is exactly the type of "proof" that lockdowns don't work. Basically cases go up, we have a lockdown, after a delay cases go down, we lift the lockdown, after a delay they go back up, and then people complain saying lockdowns don't work. Your "higher the number of vaccinations and higher number of cases argument" can look at the following:
> 
> View attachment 22450
> View attachment 22451
> 
> Strange, looks like Canada, Japan, and Sweden have the highest vaccination rates, but have the lowest new daily confirmed cases. UK, Germany and US have the lowest and have the highest new daily cases. Doesn't seem like there's a positive correlation.


Cool, you pulled out a graph, took snapshot in time and drew conclusion.
So let's ignore published scientific paper by Harvard professor that looked at 68 countries and over 2000 counties over multiple months simply because it had different conclusion than your 30s exercise.


Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States

Direct quote:
"In fact, the trend line suggests a marginally positive association such that countries with higher percentage of population fully vaccinated have higher COVID-19 cases per 1 million people."


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> Cool, you pulled out a graph, took snapshot in time and drew conclusion.
> So let's ignore published scientific paper by Harvard professor that looked at 68 countries and over 2000 counties over multiple months simply because it had different conclusion than your 30s exercise.
> 
> 
> Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States
> 
> Direct quote:
> "In fact, the trend line suggests a marginally positive association such that countries with higher percentage of population fully vaccinated have higher COVID-19 cases per 1 million people."


Cool, you have a reading comprehension problem. That scientific paper that you seem to be hinging all your argument on is using the same data that I used, except at a different time.

_We used COVID-19 data provided by the Our World in Data for cross-country analysis, available as of September 3, 2021 (Supplementary Table 1)_

It's exactly the same source that I used. The difference is that at the time Israel's data was taken, they had undergone a peak of infections and is an obvious outlier, but now they're seeing a drastic decrease in new cases.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> Cool, you have a reading comprehension problem. That scientific paper that you seem to be hinging all your argument on is using the same data that I used, except at a different time.
> 
> _We used COVID-19 data provided by the Our World in Data for cross-country analysis, available as of September 3, 2021 (Supplementary Table 1)_
> 
> It's exactly the same source that I used. The difference is that at the time Israel's data was taken, they had undergone a peak of infections and is an obvious outlier, but now they're seeing a drastic decrease in new cases.


And how much effect one country had when they used data from 86 countries and over 2000 counties?

If you believe that one should base their opinions on anonymous poster who spent 30s getting a snip of a plot versus published scientific paper that directly contradicts your conclusion, then you have some illusions of grandeur that I am simply not willing to entertain.

Published scientific papers > anonymous posts.
At least when I am trying to get information. Understand if you base your opinions on the latter, just respect that others have different threshold


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> And how much effect one country had when they used data from 86 countries and over 2000 counties?
> 
> If you believe that one should base their opinions on anonymous poster who spent 30s getting a snip of a plot versus published scientific paper that directly contradicts your conclusion, then you have some illusions of grandeur that I am simply not willing to entertain.
> 
> Published scientific papers > anonymous posts.
> At least when I am trying to get information. Understand if you base your opinions on the latter, just respect that others have different threshold


I realize that scientific papers to you is magic. But you only have to look at the methodology that is used. For the countries, they just did the same thing I did for 68 countries. Nothing more than that. For the US, they went to a different data source and did the same thing.

They even spelled out what they did in the methodology section:
_We used COVID-19 data provided by the Our World in Data for cross-country analysis, available as of September 3, 2021 (Supplementary Table 1) [4]. We included 68 countries that met the following criteria: had second dose vaccine data available; had COVID-19 case data available; had population data available; and the last update of data was within 3 days prior to or on September 3, 2021. For the 7 days preceding September 3, 2021 we computed the COVID-19 cases per 1 million people for each country as well as the percentage of population that is fully vaccinated.

For the county-level analysis in the US, we utilized the White House COVID-19 Team data [5], available as of September 2, 2021 (Supplementary Table 2). We excluded counties that did not report fully vaccinated population percentage data yielding 2947 counties for the analysis. We computed the number and percentages of counties that experienced an increase in COVID-19 cases by levels of the percentage of people fully vaccinated in each county. The percentage increase in COVID-19 cases was calculated based on the difference in cases from the last 7 days and the 7 days preceding them. For example, Los Angeles county in California had 18,171 cases in the last 7 days (August 26 to September 1) and 31,616 cases in the previous 7 days (August 19–25), so this county did not experience an increase of cases in our dataset. We provide a dashboard of the metrics used in this analysis that is updated automatically as new data is made available by the White House COVID-19 Team (Microsoft Power BI)._

Now if you have an issue with what I did, just consider that was all they did, plotted the data on a graph and published a paper around it. But now you consider that to be the gold standard. Maybe you should read these papers a little more closely before just posting them and saying, "proves my point", when they don't really. Or in this case, when I use the same source data, but a different date.

It's obvious that the covid pandemic has shown that there is a lack of scientific literacy, particularly with certain people who look at the title of the paper, sees it agrees with their viewpoint and post it without actually reading it.

I will look at published papers, but I'll also look at the source material and data if it is provided. Their source was the Our World in Data, so was mine. If you have a problem with that, then it's obvious that you can't comprehend that what I did was fundamentally the same thing.

If you want to pretend you actually have a scientific background go ahead, but it's obvious you don't.


----------



## damian13ster

"Strange, looks like Canada, Japan, and Sweden have the highest vaccination rates, but have the lowest new daily confirmed cases. UK, Germany and US have the lowest and have the highest new daily cases. "

Quote from your post - you took a snapshot. They looked at complete, numerical data over extended period of time. I read the research they did

If you have a problem with it then forward your snapshot to the Dr. at Harvard and at the scientists that reviewed the paper and take it up with them.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> "Strange, looks like Canada, Japan, and Sweden have the highest vaccination rates, but have the lowest new daily confirmed cases. UK, Germany and US have the lowest and have the highest new daily cases. "
> 
> Quote from your post - you took a snapshot. They looked at complete, numerical data over extended period of time. I read the research they did
> 
> If you have a problem with it then forward your snapshot to the Dr. at Harvard and at the scientists that reviewed the paper and take it up with them.


No they didn't. They took a snapshot of 7 days, unless you consider 7 days an extended period of time. So re-read what they did:

_For the 7 days preceding September 3, 2021 we computed the COVID-19 cases per 1 million people for each country as well as the percentage of population that is fully vaccinated._

They added the new cases for those 7 days, divided it by the population and then plotted. You can even go to their supplementary documentation to see the numbers. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/bin/10654_2021_808_MOESM1_ESM.docx

I don't have a problem with it. I just have a problem that you seem to think that it means more than it really does, and that you don't seem to understand what was done. It's better than Youtube videos, but still it's just a one week snapshot.

What do you think they did? From my impression of your reaction to my points, it seems like they performed magic.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> No they didn't. They took a snapshot of 7 days, unless you consider 7 days an extended period of time. So re-read what they did:
> 
> _For the 7 days preceding September 3, 2021 we computed the COVID-19 cases per 1 million people for each country as well as the percentage of population that is fully vaccinated._
> 
> They added the new cases for those 7 days, divided it by the population and then plotted. You can even go to their supplementary documentation to see the numbers. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/bin/10654_2021_808_MOESM1_ESM.docx
> 
> I don't have a problem with it. I just have a problem that you seem to think that it means more than it really does, and that you don't seem to understand what was done. It's better than Youtube videos, but still it's just a one week snapshot.
> 
> What do you think they did? From my impression of your reaction to my points, it seems like they performed magic.


Great! Now you can compile the data across that many data points instead of 4-5 you have chosen, submit it to journal, have it reviewed, and published. Geographical diversification was enough for me to determine the data is valid and accounts for timing of the waves, and it was enough for scientists who did the review as well.
If you had concentrated geography then timing matters - a lot. With diversification the effect is mitigated


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> Great! Now you can compile the data across that many data points instead of 4-5 you have chosen, submit it to journal, have it reviewed, and published. Geographical diversification was enough for me to determine the data is valid and accounts for timing of the waves, and it was enough for scientists who did the review as well.
> If you had concentrated geography then timing matters - a lot. With diversification the effect is mitigated


At least you agree that what I did was fundamentally the same. That's progress. Only took a couple of hours for you to figure that out.


----------



## damian13ster

You used qualitative analysis on tiny sample size vs quantitative on large sample size.
If you think that is the same then that's fine.
Published science paper shows higher vaccination rates correlate with higher case numbers. Until there is quantitative scale research showing otherwise with similar or superior methodology that is published in a journal I will rely on this published, reviewed work


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> You used qualitative analysis on tiny sample size vs quantitative on large sample size.
> If you think that is the same then that's fine.
> Published science paper shows higher vaccination rates correlate with higher case numbers. Until there is quantitative scale research showing otherwise with similar or superior methodology that is published in a journal I will rely on this published, reviewed work


The only reason why you don't think it's fine is because it's only a small sample. But before you make a blanket assumption, you should actually look at the countries they used. Here's a hint, a lot of European countries aren't included like UK, France or Germany, but lots of African countries like Angola, Djibouti, and Malawi are which is going to skew their results pretty bad considering that Africa in general hadn't experienced much in the way of covid outbreaks. Before and after vaccines were available the rate in Africa has generally been lower than anywhere else.











Edit:Should also point out that testing data from Africa is going to be limited.


----------



## bgc_fan

Just a fun follow-up on that article, I thought I'd take a look at the authors.... at least one is Canadian, or at least going to a Canadian high school:

*Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States*
S. V. Subramanian1,2* and *Akhil Kumar**3*
Author information Article notes Copyright and License information Disclaimer
1Harvard Center for Population and Development Studies, Cambridge, MA USA
2Department of Social and Behavioral Sciences, Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, Boston, MA USA
3*Turner Fenton Secondary School, Brampton, ON Canada*
S. V. Subramanian, Email: [email protected].
*Corresponding author.

BTW, in case you don't understand how authorship works, the first name is usually the supervisor and does the review, it's the other one that actually does the work.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> The only reason why you don't think it's fine is because it's only a small sample. But before you make a blanket assumption, you should actually look at the countries they used. Here's a hint, a lot of European countries aren't included like UK, France or Germany, but lots of African countries like Angola, Djibouti, and Malawi are which is going to skew their results pretty bad considering that Africa in general hadn't experienced much in the way of covid outbreaks. Before and after vaccines were available the rate in Africa has generally been lower than anywhere else.
> 
> 
> View attachment 22453
> 
> 
> Edit:Should also point out that testing data from Africa is going to be limited.
> View attachment 22454


Well, yeah. That's the entire idea of geographical diversification. 
You can't use countries along the same latitude or longitude because they tend to experience waves at similar time.
You are right on the testing though.


----------



## Beaver101

bgc_fan said:


> Just a fun follow-up on that article, I thought I'd take a look at the authors.... at least one is Canadian, or at least going to a Canadian high school:
> 
> *Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States*
> S. V. Subramanian1,2* and *Akhil Kumar**3*
> Author information Article notes Copyright and License information Disclaimer
> 1Harvard Center for Population and Development Studies, Cambridge, MA USA
> 2Department of Social and Behavioral Sciences, Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, Boston, MA USA
> 3*Turner Fenton Secondary School, Brampton, ON Canada*
> S. V. Subramanian, Email: [email protected].
> *Corresponding author.
> 
> BTW, in case you don't understand how authorship works, the first name is usually the supervisor and does the review, it's the other one that actually does the work.


 .... WOW, and this is representative of papers coming out from the famous "Harvard" U? Unbelieveable and belongs to the Trash-O-Matic bin.


----------



## zinfit

bgc_fan said:


> Just a fun follow-up on that article, I thought I'd take a look at the authors.... at least one is Canadian, or at least going to a Canadian high school:
> 
> *Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States*
> S. V. Subramanian1,2* and *Akhil Kumar**3*
> Author information Article notes Copyright and License information Disclaimer
> 1Harvard Center for Population and Development Studies, Cambridge, MA USA
> 2Department of Social and Behavioral Sciences, Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, Boston, MA USA
> 3*Turner Fenton Secondary School, Brampton, ON Canada*
> S. V. Subramanian, Email: [email protected].
> *Corresponding author.
> 
> BTW, in case you don't understand how authorship works, the first name is usually the supervisor and does the review, it's the other one that actually does the work.


rhe aricle doesn't appear to deal with hospitalization, ICU and death rates and comparisons. I generally focus on these three categories and in those instances vaccines make a very important difference.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I wouldn't even bother to read it knowing who's the poster. Not wasting my precious time.


----------



## Eder

As I mentioned before, we tend to believe only that which reinforces our own opinion.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

People eating organic foods and so eager to get shots every five months.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> You used qualitative analysis on tiny sample size vs quantitative on large sample size.


I just noticed this... to paraphrase Inigo Montoya, I don't think you know what that means. Quantitative is quantitative regardless of sample size of 10 or 1000. When you are using numbers as your data set, it doesn't suddenly change to qualitative because you have fewer data points. Here's a hint: quantitative is about numbers, qualitative is about descriptions. Since I'm pulling the same data from the same data source, it's all quantitative.



damian13ster said:


> Well, yeah. That's the entire idea of geographical diversification.
> You can't use countries along the same latitude or longitude because they tend to experience waves at similar time.
> You are right on the testing though.


Well no. The problem is that the study is trying to make a direct correlation between infection rates with vaccination. The problem is that there are a lot of other factors that influence infection rate and have a greater influence such as population density, testing rate, airport traffic, and high age groups: Factors affecting COVID-19 infected and death rates inform lockdown-related policymaking.
The study you presented doesn't try to address the fact that there are other factors, and trying to simplistically say the difference is all due to vaccination rates. However, if you don't want to consider them, you're going to have to find countries that are similar so that those other factors aren't an issue. So a country that Malawi with an urbanization rate of 20% and median age of 18.1 years is going to see a difference in infection rate than Canada with an urbanization rate of 81.7% and 41.1 years are not going to be on the same playing field and you can't make a direct comparison based on vaccination rate when those other factors are so significantly different.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> People eating organic foods and so eager to get shots every five months.


 ... yep, and still breathing the same polluted air on this planet.


----------



## KaeJS

Beaver101 said:


> ^ I wouldn't even bother to read it knowing who's the poster. Not wasting my precious time.


Sounds like a great way to learn and expand your mind.

Just discount shyt before reading. What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## Beaver101

KaeJS said:


> Sounds like a great way to learn and expand your mind.
> 
> Just discount shyt before reading. What could possibly go wrong?


 ... then don't let me stop you from "learning" and "expanding" with that sh1t posted where one of the author was a (Canadian too) high school student collaborating with a Harvard professor since you're so brainwashed to believe in it.

And don't forget to sign up for a "credit course" over at the FEE.org where you too can enormously stretch your head to lead a "Free Society/World" on this planet.


----------



## KaeJS

Beaver101 said:


> ... then don't let me stop you from "learning" and "expanding" with that sh1t posted where one of the author was a (Canadian too) high school student collaborating with a Harvard professor since you're so brainwashed to believe in it.
> 
> And don't forget to sign up for a "credit course" over at the FEE.org where you too can enormously stretch your head to lead a "Free Society/World" on this planet.


I at least read and listen and then form my own opinions.


----------



## damian13ster

One might wonder why Pfizer and Moderna refused to enter Indian market.
The reason is that Indian government refused to provide the companies with indemnity bonds.
Being legally liable for side effects of "safest vaccine ever developed" is enough to give up on market with over 1bln population.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> I just noticed this... to paraphrase Inigo Montoya, I don't think you know what that means. Quantitative is quantitative regardless of sample size of 10 or 1000. When you are using numbers as your data set, it doesn't suddenly change to qualitative because you have fewer data points. Here's a hint: quantitative is about numbers, qualitative is about descriptions. Since I'm pulling the same data from the same data source, it's all quantitative.
> 
> 
> 
> Well no. The problem is that the study is trying to make a direct correlation between infection rates with vaccination. The problem is that there are a lot of other factors that influence infection rate and have a greater influence such as population density, testing rate, airport traffic, and high age groups: Factors affecting COVID-19 infected and death rates inform lockdown-related policymaking.
> The study you presented doesn't try to address the fact that there are other factors, and trying to simplistically say the difference is all due to vaccination rates. However, if you don't want to consider them, you're going to have to find countries that are similar so that those other factors aren't an issue. So a country that Malawi with an urbanization rate of 20% and median age of 18.1 years is going to see a difference in infection rate than Canada with an urbanization rate of 81.7% and 41.1 years are not going to be on the same playing field and you can't make a direct comparison based on vaccination rate when those other factors are so significantly different.


Your post was qualitative. You used graphics, visual estimation/judgement, and didn't conduct analysis with numbers.

Of course there are confounding factors when looking at data sets in real-world application. Don't believe a single person is not aware of that. The study shows that high vaccination rates are correlated with high case numbers. Nothing more and nothing less than that. I have clearly stated that there are confounding factors in multiple responses, including explicitly in response to Mr. Matt.
Paraphrasing: 'reduction of spread due to vaccination is lower than increase in spread due to lies from governments about effect of the vaccines'
Larger datasets also helps with mitigating confounding factors rather than comparing just two data points, which yet again you do in this post.


----------



## Beaver101

KaeJS said:


> I at least read and listen and then form my own opinions.


 ... right and your opinion was:




> *KaeJS said:*





> _Sounds like a great way to learn and expand your mind.
> 
> Just discount shyt before reading. What could possibly go wrong?_


 ... after you read it of course. BSh1t.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> Your post was qualitative. You used graphics, visual estimation/judgement, and didn't conduct analysis with numbers.
> 
> Of course there are confounding factors when looking at data sets in real-world application. Don't believe a single person is not aware of that. The study shows that high vaccination rates are correlated with high case numbers. Nothing more and nothing less than that. I have clearly stated that there are confounding factors in multiple responses, including explicitly in response to Mr. Matt.
> Paraphrasing: 'reduction of spread due to vaccination is lower than increase in spread due to lies from governments about effect of the vaccines'
> Larger datasets also helps with mitigating confounding factors rather than comparing just two data points, which yet again you do in this post.


And they presented a graph and trendline. You really don't know what you are talking about. But I figured that, I just figured others should realize that.

Nah, you just don't have a clue and want to make things simple. How did that study explain how government lying affects of the vaccine?

Obviously you just don't understand the concept of explaining to a 5 year old. Larger datasets only work if you start taking into account different variables. If you don't want to analyze other variables then you simplify your analysis so that the other variables are no longer a factor. The easiest way to do that is to pick countries that have similar demographics if you aren't going to consider that factor. But that's not what they did so they kept all the confounding factors and tried to show the correlation from vaccination rates to infection rates without accounting for all the other factors.


----------



## damian13ster

You can't be serious? They presented their conclusion based on numbers on graph and using a trendline (which is a result of statistical analysis). There was discussion of other statistical parameters too clearly showing quantitative analysis.

You posted a graph and based your conclusion off of it. Was there any numerical analysis involved in your post or not? If there wasn't then it is qualitative. If there was, it is quantitative.

The study didn't explain how government lying affects of the vaccine.
This is simply one of the confounding factors (of many) that they didn't include.
You are criticizing me at the same time for mentioning a massive confounding factor they didn't include in the study and for not acknowledging that study didn't include confounding factors? 😅

You also keep ignoring the fact that correlation doesn't equal causation and keep claiming i am using this to say vaccines don't work.

I am not. Simply and clearly stating that there is positive CORRELATION between high vaccination rates and high case loads.
Never did I state that the CAUSE for high cases are vaccines.
Simply stating that effectiveness of vaccines is not good enough to overcome other variables.

Those are all FACTS

In my OPINION, the major factor on why high vaccination rate CORRELATES with high case numbers is the fact that people are lied to about effectiveness of the vaccines, causing them to modify behavior and increase spread.
You can agree or disagree with the opinion. Just differentiate between an OPINION and FACTS when writing your posts.


Sidenote:
One might wonder why Pfizer and Moderna refused to enter Indian market.
The reason is that Indian government refused to provide the companies with indemnity bonds.
Being legally liable for side effects of "safest vaccine ever developed" is enough to give up on market with over 1bln population. 


Wonder what analysis you think they used to make a decision not to pursue a market with 1bln population........


----------



## sags

_Wonder what analysis you think they used to make a decision not to pursue a market with 1bln population........ _

Maybe they couldn't produce enough vaccine for the world anyways so why bother catering to India's demands ?

So what was the result ? The vaccines rolled out globally and the Indian population suffered a catastrophic wave of infection.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> This is simply one of the confounding factors (of many) that they didn't include.
> You are criticizing me at the same time for mentioning a massive confounding factor they didn't include in the study and for not acknowledging that study didn't include confounding factors? 😅


When a sufficiently important factor is omitted, the analysis is flawed, perhaps fatally so.



> Sidenote:
> One might wonder why Pfizer and Moderna refused to enter Indian market.
> The reason is that Indian government refused to provide the companies with indemnity bonds.
> Being legally liable for side effects of "safest vaccine ever developed" is enough to give up on market with over 1bln population.
> 
> Wonder what analysis you think they used to make a decision not to pursue a market with 1bln population........


Also India is a massive exporter of pharmaceuticals.





Pharmaceutical industry, Pharmaceutical Exports from India- IBEF


Pharmaceutical Exports: Indian pharmaceutical industry is the third largest in volume and the 13th largest in value & is expected to grow at a CAGR of 22.4% to touch US$ 55 billion by 2020.




www.ibef.org





The real issue with vaccination in India is that the government simply didn't buy many doses.
They didn't buy them from Pfizer, or Moderna or Serum, so they don't have them.

The serum institute was making 65 million doses a month, now they're at nearly a quarter billion/month.








India's Serum sees 'large' exports as output nearly quadruples


The Serum Institute of India (SII), the world's biggest vaccine maker, has nearly quadrupled its monthly capacity of AstraZeneca shots to as many as 240 million doses and is prepared to export "large volumes" from January, its CEO told Reuters.




www.reuters.com





Last numbers I saw was India had about 4% vaccination rate, that' less than 2 months of production at Serum, with their increased production they make that many doses in less than 2 weeks. 

Indias poor vaccination rate is due, in a large part, to government management. To be fair India is a huge country with a lot of very complex issues to deal with.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

This new variant omicron apparently hasn’t killed anyone yet, and might be an end of this pandemic. Especially for countries with low vaccination rates.


----------



## sags

Omicron isn't slowing down the spread of Delta though.

It also isn't clear that infection from Omicron provides immunity from infection from Delta.

It is too early to make any assumptions.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> It is too early to make any assumptions.


I agree. So who made the early assumptions that the ICUs would be overloaded?


----------



## Beaver101

^ No assumptions required with up to date news reported. And Delta hasn't gone away yet or been muscled out by Omicron as someone wished in the scientific prediction business.


----------



## Eder

I would be interested if any attempt is being made to increase ICU beds in anticipation of being over whelmed or will it be a big surprise again? Hopefully antibody and other treatments are being stockpiled so this wave we can actually treat the sick rather than just trying to prevent their deaths.


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> ^ No assumptions required with up to date news reported. And Delta hasn't gone away yet or been muscled out by Omicron as someone wished in the scientific prediction business.


 ... just saw this:

U.S. COVID-19 deaths reach 800,000 as Delta ravaged in 2021



> _Published Sunday, December 12, 2021 12:03PM EST
> 
> Dec 12 (Reuters) -- The United States on Sunday reached 800,000 coronavirus-related deaths, according to a Reuters tally, as the nation braces for a potential surge in infections due to more time spent indoors with colder weather and the highly transmissible Omicron variant of the virus.
> 
> The milestone means the U.S. death toll from this one virus now exceeds the entire population of North Dakota.
> 
> Even with vaccines widely and freely available, the country has lost more lives to the virus this year than in 2020 due to the more contagious Delta variant and people refusing to get inoculated against COVID-19.
> 
> Since the start of the year, over 450,000 people in the United States have died after contracting COVID-19, or 57% of all U.S. deaths from the illness since the pandemic started.
> 
> The deaths this year were mostly in unvaccinated patients, health experts say. Deaths have increased despite advances in caring for COVID patients and new treatment options such as monoclonal antibodies.
> 
> It took 111 days for U.S. deaths to jump from 600,000 to 700,000, according to Reuters analysis. The next 100,000 deaths took just 73 days.
> 
> Other countries have lost far fewer lives per capita in the past 11 months, according to the Reuters analysis.
> 
> *Among the Group of Seven (G7) wealthiest nations, the United States ranks the worst in terms of per capita deaths from COVID-19 between Jan. 1 and Nov. 30, according to the Reuters analysis.
> 
> The death rate in the United States was more than three times higher than in neighboring Canada and 11 times more than Japan.*
> 
> Even when the United States is compared with a larger pool of wealthy countries with access to vaccines, it ranks near the bottom. Among the 38 members of the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), the United States ranks 30th. Only Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Lithuania, Latvia Colombia, Poland and Slovenia had more COVID-19 deaths per capita. New Zealand had the least.
> 
> When compared with the European Union, the United States has 1.3 times the per capita deaths reported in the last 11 months than the entire bloc.
> ... _


 ... blah blah blah .... the bolded part said enough as it is not embarassing enough. I guess, in making America First.


----------



## HappilyRetired

The stats are meaningless because US counts Covid deaths differently. Dying with Covid but due to something else is still counted as a Covid death. Apples to oranges.


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> I would be interested if any attempt is being made to increase ICU beds in anticipation of being over whelmed or will it be a big surprise again?


 .. you can ask Ms. Elliott (Ontario's Health Minister) that question. 



> Hopefully antibody and other treatments are being stockpiled so this wave we can actually treat the sick rather than just trying to prevent their deaths.


 ... say that again with "... treat the sick rather than just trying to prevent their deaths"???? Huh????


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> *The stats are meaningless because US counts Covid deaths differently.* Dying with Covid but due to something else is still counted as a Covid death. Apples to oranges.


 ... let's set the compare aside, would you expect that many deaths in the USA if Covid wasn't around?


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... let's set the compare aside, would you expect that many deaths in the USA if Covid wasn't around?


I didn't say no one died from Covid, I said that some people who died of something different were counted as a Covid death simply because of a positive test.


----------



## sags

I bet you were a climate change denier too.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> I bet you were a climate change denier too.


You know I'm right so you changed the subject.

The climate changes all the time. I've known that my entire life.


----------



## sags

I knew it.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ... let's set the compare aside, would you expect that many deaths in the USA if Covid wasn't around?


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> I knew it.


You know nothing. I stated a known fact. You immediately changed the subject rather than respond to that fact.

Were you raised in the era of participation awards and told that your feelings are just as important than facts? I can't see any other reason why you act like you do.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> I didn't say no one died from Covid, I said that some people who died of something different were counted as a Covid death simply because of a positive test.


 ... I'm not saying that. I said first "Let's put the compare aside".

And then I asked "_would you expect that many deaths in the USA if Covid wasn't around?_" based on what you said " *The stats are meaningless because US counts Covid deaths differently." *with emphasis on the underlined part. I.e. "don't you think the USA has a mortality problem presently"? If so, what's causing the problem? Shoot-outs? Heart attacks? Cancers? for the extra mortality rate.

I see Ukrainedude has historical death rates which looks pretty consistent year over year but those rates don't tell me what were they due to or include? And what source is it coming from? I'm surprised to see the death rate has trended down for 2021 (which hasn't even ended) since 1975?


----------



## sags

HappilyRetired said:


> You know nothing. I stated a known fact. You immediately changed the subject rather than respond to that fact.
> 
> Were you raised in the era of participation awards and told that your feelings are just as important than facts? I can't see any other reason why you act like you do.


You posted your opinion based on your opinion.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> You posted your opinion based on your opinion.


Wrong again. It's a waste of time discussing facts with you.

Have a nice day.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> rates don't tell me what were they due to or include


Total deaths including flu, old age, cancer, covid etc. As you can see covid hardly made any dents in the USA population.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Total deaths including flu, old age, cancer, covid etc. As you can see covid hardly made any dents in the USA population.


 ... impossible with your statement saying "Covid deaths hardly made any dent to the USA population" is like saying "what pandemic"? 

Again, who is the source of those stats? And why are all deaths lumped together?


----------



## zinfit

Eder said:


> I would be interested if any attempt is being made to increase ICU beds in anticipation of being over whelmed or will it be a big surprise again? Hopefully antibody and other treatments are being stockpiled so this wave we can actually treat the sick rather than just trying to prevent their deaths.


Good points . Government don't seem to avail themselves of such opportunities. Canadian healthcare seems much more reactive and not pro-active.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> When a sufficiently important factor is omitted, the analysis is flawed, perhaps fatally so.
> 
> 
> Also India is a massive exporter of pharmaceuticals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pharmaceutical industry, Pharmaceutical Exports from India- IBEF
> 
> 
> Pharmaceutical Exports: Indian pharmaceutical industry is the third largest in volume and the 13th largest in value & is expected to grow at a CAGR of 22.4% to touch US$ 55 billion by 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ibef.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The real issue with vaccination in India is that the government simply didn't buy many doses.
> They didn't buy them from Pfizer, or Moderna or Serum, so they don't have them.
> 
> The serum institute was making 65 million doses a month, now they're at nearly a quarter billion/month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India's Serum sees 'large' exports as output nearly quadruples
> 
> 
> The Serum Institute of India (SII), the world's biggest vaccine maker, has nearly quadrupled its monthly capacity of AstraZeneca shots to as many as 240 million doses and is prepared to export "large volumes" from January, its CEO told Reuters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last numbers I saw was India had about 4% vaccination rate, that' less than 2 months of production at Serum, with their increased production they make that many doses in less than 2 weeks.
> 
> Indias poor vaccination rate is due, in a large part, to government management. To be fair India is a huge country with a lot of very complex issues to deal with.


There is plenty of analysis done on real-world vaccination effect on infection. about 20% after 4 months for Pfizer for Delta(40-fold less for Omicron) and 0% for AZ after 3 months for Omicron (not sure about Delta).


When it comes to India, I believe in may 2021 they tried to sign a contract with pfizer but pfizer refused without being free of any liability.

You can google it, or remind me tomorrow and I will post a link.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> why are all deaths lumped together


Is there any point in grouping dead people? Dead people are dead people. Does it matter what they died from ? As long as you see the trend. 
Of course there’s pandemic, it’s all over the news.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Is there any point in grouping dead people? Dead people are dead people. Does it matter what they died from ? *As long as you see the trend.
> Of course there’s pandemic, it’s all over the news.*


 ... so what trend do you exactly see in your stats, if it doesn't matter what they died from? Duh.

So now you do acknowledge "there's a pandemic" since it's over the news (like real world news, not your version).

So where's the source of those/your stats posted? You still haven't answered the question. This is the last time I'm asking for the link to the source of your historical stats. If I do not get an answer, this confirms you're (still) farting and what you've posted and continue to post belongs to a conspiracy group.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

The first tranche of documents reveal that as of February 2021, when Pfizer’s shot was being rolled out worldwide on an emergency basis, the drugmaker had compiled more than 42,000 case reports detailing nearly 160,000 adverse reactions to the jab.








These reactions ranged from the mild to the severe, and 1,223 were fatal. The majority of these case reports involved people aged between 31 and 50 in the United States.

More than 25,000 nervous system disorders were reported, along with 17,000 musculoskeletal and connective tissue disorders and 14,000 gastrointestinal disorders. A range of different autoimmune conditions were reported, along with some peculiar maladies, including 270 _“spontaneous abortions,”_ and incidences of herpes, epilepsy, heart failure and strokes, among thousands of others.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> So now you do acknowledge "there's a pandemic" since it's over the news (like real world news, not your version).


 It’s something that mainstream media postulates. But doesn’t mean that it’s true. The main stream media was postulating that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and Iraq got bombed for that. Later turned out that Iraq didn’t have weapons of mass destruction. That’s how democratic media works.

2002The Bush administration says it has solid evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, but feels no obligation to prove its allegations before leading an attack on Baghdad.
*WESTON: Canada offered to aid Iraq invasion: WikiLeaks

Report says U.S. spy agencies were 'dead wrong' about Iraq*


----------



## Beaver101

^ OK, if you say so. Now you can tune back to your channel and continue smoking your meds.


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> The first tranche of documents reveal that as of February 2021, when Pfizer’s shot was being rolled out worldwide on an emergency basis, the drugmaker had compiled more than 42,000 case reports detailing nearly 160,000 adverse reactions to the jab.
> View attachment 22469
> 
> These reactions ranged from the mild to the severe, and 1,223 were fatal. The majority of these case reports involved people aged between 31 and 50 in the United States.
> 
> More than 25,000 nervous system disorders were reported, along with 17,000 musculoskeletal and connective tissue disorders and 14,000 gastrointestinal disorders. A range of different autoimmune conditions were reported, along with some peculiar maladies, including 270 _“spontaneous abortions,”_ and incidences of herpes, epilepsy, heart failure and strokes, among thousands of others.


Their conclusion, however, was that "The data do not reveal any novel safety concerns or risks requiring label changes and support a favorable benefit risk profile of to the BNT162b2 vaccine."

These cases are things that happened to people after they got the vaccine. But would those things have happened anyways? You need to compare the incidence of these occurrences vs baseline incidence to have a better idea. If, let's say, 1200 people died after receiving the vaccine out of 1 million doses administered. If you take a random 1 million people, how many of them will die in the same time period? Obviously, at least some. 

You can't just look at raw numbers like this and panic. 

I obviously don't know the answer to whether this is a higher number than baseline, since they didn't include that in this paper. But they concluded that it was safe and clearly the FDA agreed.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> You can't be serious? They presented their conclusion based on numbers on graph and using a trendline (which is a result of statistical analysis). There was discussion of other statistical parameters too clearly showing quantitative analysis.
> 
> You posted a graph and based your conclusion off of it. Was there any numerical analysis involved in your post or not? If there wasn't then it is qualitative. If there was, it is quantitative.
> 
> The study didn't explain how government lying affects of the vaccine.
> This is simply one of the confounding factors (of many) that they didn't include.
> You are criticizing me at the same time for mentioning a massive confounding factor they didn't include in the study and for not acknowledging that study didn't include confounding factors? 😅
> 
> You also keep ignoring the fact that correlation doesn't equal causation and keep claiming i am using this to say vaccines don't work.
> 
> I am not. Simply and clearly stating that there is positive CORRELATION between high vaccination rates and high case loads.
> Never did I state that the CAUSE for high cases are vaccines.
> Simply stating that effectiveness of vaccines is not good enough to overcome other variables.
> 
> Those are all FACTS
> 
> In my OPINION, the major factor on why high vaccination rate CORRELATES with high case numbers is the fact that people are lied to about effectiveness of the vaccines, causing them to modify behavior and increase spread.
> You can agree or disagree with the opinion. Just differentiate between an OPINION and FACTS when writing your posts.
> 
> 
> Sidenote:
> One might wonder why Pfizer and Moderna refused to enter Indian market.
> The reason is that Indian government refused to provide the companies with indemnity bonds.
> Being legally liable for side effects of "safest vaccine ever developed" is enough to give up on market with over 1bln population.
> 
> 
> Wonder what analysis you think they used to make a decision not to pursue a market with 1bln population........


I think you may want to re-read the study. They did zero statistical analysis. They just plotted the points on a graph and had Excel draw a trendline. They didn't even bother to give the linear formula. The least amount of effort they could have done was provide an r2 value which would indicate how well the line actually fits the data. Again, I'll just add this to the pile of examples where you didn't read the study, or understand what was done. The way you keep referring to it as some sort of special study kind of indicates either situation. I can summarize some of your comments that show this:



damian13ster said:


> Cool, you pulled out a graph, took snapshot in time and drew conclusion.
> So let's ignore published scientific paper by Harvard professor that looked at 68 countries and over 2000 counties over multiple months simply because it had different conclusion than your 30s exercise.


Paper is based on data presented at one point in time.
Paper written by high school student.



damian13ster said:


> Quote from your post - you took a snapshot. They looked at complete, numerical data over extended period of time. I read the research they did


Extended period of time = 7 days.



damian13ster said:


> Geographical diversification was enough for me to determine the data is valid and accounts for timing of the waves, and it was enough for scientists who did the review as well.
> If you had concentrated geography then timing matters - a lot. With diversification the effect is mitigated


Geographical diversification that somehow excludes UK, or Norway which would probably shift the balance the other way.

You realize you have zero credibility in that you don't understand the difference between qualitative and quantitative data. To help you, you may want to order these slides: Scientific Observation: Qualitative vs Quantitative Intro, & Sort- DIGITAL!

They are for grade 5-8 students, but you may be able to understand.

As for correlation is causation, you're the one implying that. I'm the one that saying it doesn't. And correlation is kind of useless when there's a lot of other factors involved.

Otherwise I'm sure you like these other correlations:


----------



## Beaver101

^


----------



## damian13ster

So by giving those examples you are basically showing that vaccinations are completely unrelated to amount of cases? Every single example you have shown has absolutely no causation. Do you believe vaccination rate has no effect on case rate?

Personally, I have never said that. Simply that other variables outweigh the effect that vaccinations have.
This is not a controversial statement at all and you can see plenty of evidence.
Not sure why you even bother arguing the statement:
Vaccines decrease infections by amount insufficient to overcome increase due to other variables.
I believe the most significant variable is lies about vaccine efficiency. Now this is the statement you can disagree with because there is no data on it, just common sense


----------



## Ukrainiandude

The third dose strengthens the immune system, so after the fourth you are already protected. When 80% of residents have received the fifth dose, the restrictions can be relaxed, since the sixth dose stops the virus from multiplying and prevents it from spreading. I am calm and believe that the seventh dose will solve our problems, and we have no reason to be afraid of the eighth dose. Clinical studies with the ninth dose have shown that antibodies are more stable after the tenth dose. The eleventh dose ensures that there are no new mutations, so there is no reason to criticize the idea of a twelfth dose.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> So by giving those examples you are basically showing that vaccinations are completely unrelated to amount of cases? Every single example you have shown has absolutely no causation. Do you believe vaccination rate has no effect on case rate?
> 
> Personally, I have never said that. Simply that other variables outweigh the effect that vaccinations have.
> This is not a controversial statement at all and you can see plenty of evidence.
> Not sure why you even bother arguing the statement:
> Vaccines decrease infections by amount insufficient to overcome increase due to other variables.
> I believe the most significant variable is lies about vaccine efficiency. Now this is the statement you can disagree with because there is no data on it, just common sense


To some extent yes. The thing is there is a history that is being completely overlooked. In the countries that have high rates of infection, they had undergone previous waves of covid and so there was already a big covid presence before vaccines were available. That is also a reason why these countries would also push for early vaccinations to get the situation under control. That is just like how Australia, NZ and African countries were weathering the initial storm fine without vaccination. Hence, low case load and low vaccination rate. Conversely the US had a high case load and trying to move towards high vaccination rate. But really the point is the damage was already done before vaccines were available. The increased vaccination rate may slow down the cases, but when you've already got a large population that was already infected before vaccines were around, that country is going to be behind the ball.

Oh, since they didn't do any statistical analysis, I did a quick one based on their data. You can see that their trendline is meaningless. In case you didn't bother to look up what R2 is, it's the coefficient of determination which is the degree to which the two variables are related. It's a scale from 0-1, with 1 meaning that the variables are perfectly correlated. At 0.06, it pretty much means that there is no correlation between the two. You can see why they didn't add this basic 2-second step. It basically invalidates their whole paper.


----------



## damian13ster

You assume the ability to access vaccines is based on the need for the vaccines. It isn't - it is purely based on the political and economical power. Only outlier here seems to be Australia, although arguably geography and lack of domestic manufacturing played a role here. Africa is hardly on top of the list for Pfizer or Moderna, and not because there isn't a need........
Same with India, although there the problem is they would actually be helped liable for damage caused by their products so they refused to sell when Indian government tried to purchase.
This is not the variable you are looking for to explain lack of evidence of vaccination rate decreasing case rate.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> You assume the ability to access vaccines is based on the need for the vaccines. It isn't - it is purely based on the political and economical power. Only outlier here seems to be Australia, although arguably geography and lack of domestic manufacturing played a role here. Africa is hardly on top of the list for Pfizer or Moderna, and not because there isn't a need........
> Same with India, although there the problem is they would actually be helped liable for damage caused by their products so they refused to sell when Indian government tried to purchase.
> This is not the variable you are looking for to explain lack of evidence of vaccination rate decreasing case rate.


How about the fact that there is no correlation between the values as I just posted?


----------



## damian13ster

So how do you explain there is no correlation between vaccination rate and case numbers, yet your position is that vaccinations cause decrease in transmission?
Seems like we are in agreement here - vaccinations don't decrease case numbers, acknowledging confounding variables such as lies from the government
Or is your latest post simply an argument against your own position?


----------



## Beaver101

The most interesting thing that I got out of that "highly graded mumble-jumble piece of crxp" passing on as "a sophisticated study" is "how does a high school student (and Canadian too) get to write a piece of paper for a Harvard professor (supposedly with a PHD degree)"?


----------



## sags

Manitoba is asking the Federal government to send nurses during their 4th wave.

All of the ICU patients are un-vaccinated......except one.

The un-vaccinated are going to really suffer in this wave of both Delta and Omicron.

Also, at least one patient in the UK died from Omicron, so we can dispense with that myth now.

It looks like the anti-vaxxers have run out of any remaining logical arguments for not getting vaccinated.


----------



## damian13ster

10 hospitalizations in entire UK with Omicron and 1 death with Omicron in entire world, without knowing age, vaccination status, underlying conditions is nothing to worry about yet.

There might be a case to worry if new data arrives, but so far it is pretty much all positive.
A month since variant is circulating and just 1 death worldwide so far (and yes, the number will not stop at 1).









U.K. Sees First Death of a Person With Omicron as Government Warns of Wave of Cases


Prime Minister Boris Johnson said the death was a reminder of the risks the country faces as Britain races to offer its adult population a third Covid-19 vaccination dose by the end of the year.




www.wsj.com




"
It couldn’t be determined where the person contracted the variant or whether it was the cause of death. The U.K. Health Security Agency said the individual had been diagnosed in a hospital but gave no indication of his or her vaccination status.

The U.K. health agency estimated Monday that there are currently around 200,000 daily Omicron infections in the country alongside 4,713 confirmed cases of the variant. The variant now represents more than 20% of Covid-19 cases in England.
It also said that 10 people, aged between 18 and 85 and diagnosed on or before admission, had been hospitalized with Omicron in different parts of England. Most had received two vaccine doses.
"


----------



## Eder

bgc_fan said:


> View attachment 22471


We can make a similar graph correlating CO2 emissions with rising temperatures. Nick Cage even has the popular hockey stick ending made famous by Mr Mann. Therefore I believe this graph as well as the one I described. (I hope more people drown in the pool ...Cage is one of the best not yet ostracized by pedophilia.)


----------



## sags

Norway is increasing restrictions due to the wave of infections, including banning serving alcohol in restaurants and pubs.

Tighter restrictions in schools will also be adopted. They are concerned about the increasing spread of the virus.

Experts in Canada say we are not ready for what is coming. Provinces need to apply more restrictions before it is too late.

We should have learned by now that action must be taken early.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> So how do you explain there is no correlation between vaccination rate and case numbers, yet your position is that vaccinations cause decrease in transmission?
> Seems like we are in agreement here - vaccinations don't decrease case numbers, acknowledging confounding variables such as lies from the government
> Or is your latest post simply an argument against your own position?


You're looking at it too simply with a one for one correlation. Vaccinations cause a decrease in transmission, but the point is that when you've got a lot of people infected already, that decrease isn't going to be as obvious. You can't seem to understand the scenario that if there was no vaccine, the case load would rise exponentially. That's where you get these severe outbreaks like in India over the summer and possibly ongoing as they just don't test everyone any more, or in Australia where if you get one infected person doing community spread, without the vaccine, it'll just spread like wildfire.

For example, here's a paper that models the exact issue, looking at the effect that vaccination rate would have on the rate of infection. Accelerated vaccine rollout is imperative to mitigate highly transmissible COVID-19 variants


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## damian13ster

You make an assumption about the scenario, which doesn't exist in countries with low vaccination rates, with no data to show evidence that the scenario would be likely.
It is purely your belief that it would happen without any real world evidence, despite significant amount of countries with relatively low vaccination rates.

Oh yeah, those models have been proving extremely reliable since the beginning of the pandemic 😅


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> You make an assumption about the scenario, which doesn't exist in countries with low vaccination rates, with no data to show evidence that the scenario would be likely.
> It is purely your belief that it would happen without any real world evidence, despite significant amount of countries with relatively low vaccination rates.
> 
> Oh yeah, those models have been proving extremely reliable since the beginning of the pandemic 😅


That's fine if you want to stick with your beliefs, it doesn't make them true. And simulation and modeling has been used in the past. However, modeling is only as good as the assumptions and data that is provided.

The inherent problem with your study is that not all countries are at the same point on the covid timeline, some countries have had 3rd and 4th waves, while others have barely had 2. There's a reason why at the start of covid when we compared countries we didn't compare their rates of infection by calendar date, rather from the day that the first infection was recorded. That sort of comparison was more relevant than taking, in your words, "a snapshot in time", and then drawing a conclusion. Of course because the flawed conclusion fits your narrative, you will stick to it since you don't understand the situation. You like seeing things in absolutes, and unfortunately real-life doesn't work that way.


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## damian13ster

I am sticking with data showing, to quote you:
"How about the fact that there is no correlation between the values as I just posted? "

You can stick to your beliefs as well, just be aware that those are just beliefs, and nothing more. 

Well, you have a narrative that has no reflection in real-life data, flawed or not, and stick to it.
Unfortunately this entire pandemic turned into quasi-religion.


----------



## Money172375

Don’t have all the details but my neighbour went to Florida earlier this month….planning to stay until April. She got her booster down there and ended up in the hospital for 5 days….now back on her way home. Interested to learn what occurred.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Don’t have all the details but my neighbour went to Florida earlier this month….planning to stay until April. She got her booster down there and ended up in the hospital for 5 days….now back on her way home. * Interested to learn what occurred.*


 ... most definitely as why the interest/need to "get home" in "Canada, Ontario" when the original plan was to stay until April, 2022?


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ... most definitely as why the interest/need to "get home" in "Canada, Ontario" when the original plan was to stay until April, 2022?


I believe it has something to do with their travel insurance. They’re coming back for 90 days and then leaving again.


----------



## zinfit

Money172375 said:


> I believe it has something to do with their travel insurance. They’re coming back for 90 days and then leaving again.


When a snowbird gets sick upon recovery the insurers pressure them to go home. In a strict reading of there insurance policy they are no longer eligible for coverage.


----------



## ian

A colleague's father was in a Florida hospital with heart issues.

Unbeknownst to him or his wife his travel medical insurance provider was immediately in touch with the hospital and with his medical team.

The insurer had made arrangements for him to be flown back to Ontario as soon as it was feasible. The goal is apparently to get someone home ASAP if they are able to travel by air ambulance before something else happens that elongates their stay in hospital or requires more surgery.

They advised him and his wife once the arrangements were completed. No choice. Either he agreed to brought home or he had to sign a release from his medical coverage as at that day. 

He later found out (to his surprise) through his insurance agent that the insurers never pay the full hospital bill. They negotiate with the hospital-often for as much as a 50 percent discount based upon immediate funds transfer transfer to the hospital corporation.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> I am sticking with data showing, to quote you:
> "How about the fact that there is no correlation between the values as I just posted? "
> 
> You can stick to your beliefs as well, just be aware that those are just beliefs, and nothing more.
> 
> Well, you have a narrative that has no reflection in real-life data, flawed or not, and stick to it.
> Unfortunately this entire pandemic turned into quasi-religion.


Well, I tell you what, you don't like the paper that I presented that discusses the vaccination rate affecting infection rate, why don't you actually critique it? Something actually concrete to show why vaccination rate won't affect infection rate. Saying that it's just modeling and simulation isn't enough since that means you don't understand what they did.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> Well, I tell you what, you don't like the paper that I presented that discusses the vaccination rate affecting infection rate, why don't you actually critique it? Something actually concrete to show why vaccination rate won't affect infection rate. Saying that it's just modeling and simulation isn't enough since that means you don't understand what they did.


What conclusion exactly do you expect to draw from the paper?
Yes, if all other factors were equal, then vaccination rate will likely result in lower case numbers (although not even close to what the model showed). Vaccinations in general slow down the spread, although to a small degree, dropping to ~20% with Delta after 4 months and to ~0% with Omicron after 3 months. At least based on studies available so far.
Of course the study made this assumption which proved to be extremely wrong:
"These results were obtained by assuming equal vaccine efficacy against SGTF variants and the original strain."
It is amusing that they did sensitivity study for ease of transmission of new variant but did not assume change in vaccine effectiveness

The paper you showed is nothing new, nor am I disputing the findings there, although they got magnitude completely wrong because of fatal mistake in assumption about vaccine effectiveness.

However, in real world, other factors are not equal.
Government lies about effect of vaccines impacted other factors, such as frequency of testing, frequency of contact, and general behavior of people.
The paper doesn't account for changes in the behavior caused by the lies, and those changes are what caused vaccination rate to be ineffective in lowering case rate.


----------



## MK7GTI




----------



## Synergy

ian said:


> He later found out (to his surprise) through his insurance agent that the insurers never pay the full hospital bill. They negotiate with the hospital-often for as much as a 50 percent discount based upon immediate funds transfer transfer to the hospital corporation.


Welcome to the US health care system! Haggling for health care.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> What conclusion exactly do you expect to draw from the paper?
> Yes, if all other factors were equal, then vaccination rate will likely result in lower case numbers (although not even close to what the model showed). Vaccinations in general slow down the spread, although to a small degree, dropping to ~20% with Delta after 4 months and to ~0% with Omicron after 3 months. At least based on studies available so far.
> Of course the study made this assumption which proved to be extremely wrong:
> "These results were obtained by assuming equal vaccine efficacy against SGTF variants and the original strain."
> It is amusing that they did sensitivity study for ease of transmission of new variant but did not assume change in vaccine effectiveness
> 
> The paper you showed is nothing new, nor am I disputing the findings there, although they got magnitude completely wrong because of fatal mistake in assumption about vaccine effectiveness.
> 
> However, in real world, other factors are not equal.
> Government lies about effect of vaccines impacted other factors, such as frequency of testing, frequency of contact, and general behavior of people.
> The paper doesn't account for changes in the behavior caused by the lies, and those changes are what caused vaccination rate to be ineffective in lowering case rate.


You keep going on about government lies, so I think this whole conversation is ending since you have no interest in science or reality.


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## damian13ster

You posted a model that assumes vaccines are over 90% effective in stopping the spread for all variants. 
And you are calling out others for having 'no interest in science or reality'? - come on man.

There are plenty of examples of government officials telling that by getting vaccinated you protect your family, grandparents, children, and whatever. That this will end the pandemic - all lies. All proven, verifiable lies.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Synergy said:


> Welcome to the US health care system! Haggling for health care.


Health care was given without haggling. They were negotiating for a reduced payment.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> You posted a model that assumes vaccines are over 90% effective in stopping the spread for all variants.
> And you are calling out others for having 'no interest in science or reality'? - come on man.
> 
> There are plenty of examples of government officials telling that by getting vaccinated you protect your family, grandparents, children, and whatever. That this will end the pandemic - all lies. All proven, verifiable lies.


Science changes with new information. You seem to think that because the situation changes that people are lying. You aren't even being logical. What do you propose should be done if you don't think that vaccination won't help?


----------



## damian13ster

Situation changed in june/july. That's when more research on vaccines came out and proved they are wildly ineffective in stopping infections. Politicians didn't change their tune, didn't issue corrections, and didn't change their tactics. So yeah, since then, they are lying.

Change public messaging completely - make it finally based on truth. Acknowledge vaccines don't protect from infection so people who are vaccinated should not change their behavior based on vaccination status - that would be a massive start and would decrease the other factors listed (increase in amount of contacts, decrease in precautions taken by people) that ultimately lead to higher case rate.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> Situation changed in june/july. That's when more research on vaccines came out and proved they are wildly ineffective in stopping infections. Politicians didn't change their tune, didn't issue corrections, and didn't change their tactics. So yeah, since then, they are lying.
> 
> Change public messaging completely - make it finally based on truth. Acknowledge vaccines don't protect from infection so people who are vaccinated should not change their behavior based on vaccination status - that would be a massive start and would decrease the other factors listed (increase in amount of contacts, decrease in precautions taken by people) that ultimately lead to higher case rate.


You didn't answer the question. What do you want the government want to do? Most governments still have restrictions in place that haven't greatly changed over the year. Are you suggesting we go back to lockdowns? Just saying vaccines don't protect from infection isn't going to mean a whole lot to people. We know breakthroughs can happen, but the viral clearance rate is faster and symptoms are more mild than those who aren't vaccinated.


----------



## damian13ster

I think you missed the answer in the post.
I want them to tell the truth and tell the vaccinated they have no protection against infection, and they should act accordingly - that means no two-tier society either and no hate, division.
Think restrictions to anyone under 50 are useless. They make up tiny % of hospitalizations, they aren't going to overwhelm healthcare system (80+ alone account for more hospitalizations than entire 0-50 age group). I would suggest senior homes be isolated, and seniors be given support and/or temporary housing (or their families if senior doesn't want/can't move) if they feel they are at risk and want to isolate themselves. All people who come in contact with them given rapid test immediately before coming in contact.

In healthcare, the % of funding going to hospital care vs administration needs to change. Also, the scheduling of procedures needs to change. University hospitals in Ontario are interesting case in that. Listened to administrator from there on 630 CHED radio - they managed to actually INCREASE amount of procedures from pre-pandemic by more uniform planning of them (apparently front-loading is common in Canadian health care system, resulting in high inefficiency, staff burnout and frustration).

Rapid tests for everyone. Have them in pharmacies, have them in vending machines on the street - everywhere.
People who test positive immediately given PCR test and based on result - their salary is then covered for next 14 days.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Want to set that up as a Xmas wish list?


----------



## OptsyEagle

All issues like restrictions, will always have a large amount of politics involved, that supercede the science behind them. I agree that the citizen's under age 50 do not pose a great threat to our hospitals, but I can't say they pose no threat to society at all. Adding to that I can't say all vaccinated people pose no threat to society either. What I can say is that vaccinated people came forward and did what society asked of them and unvaccinated people did not. For whatever reason each person has for their decisions that result will not change. 

That is pretty much why this unfairness (restrictions on the unvaccinated) is allowed, within this political decision, and I doubt you will see that change much until this virus gets more under control.


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## damian13ster

@OptsyEagle so what you are saying is that it is all about compliance to the authority, and not actual science or danger of infection spread?


----------



## damian13ster

In the meantime, UK, one of the most boosted countries in the world (behind Gibraltar, Chile, Iceland, Israel, Uruguay) just beat the record for highest amount of daily cases in the entire pandemic.


----------



## OptsyEagle

damian13ster said:


> @OptsyEagle so what you are saying is that it is all about compliance to the authority, and not actual science or danger of infection spread?


I am saying that in a political society, where the science is debatable and societal acceptance of rules and law must be agreeable to the majority, these type of rules (restrictions) will take place.

Damian you have been arguing your points for hundreds of pages and got virtually no one to agree with you because whatever your opinion is on Covid, you can easily find science that will justify that point. That is about all we know for sure at this stage of the pandemic so the public has given up on "the science". They are as happy to see the unvaccinated punished for their selfishness as they are for any benefit the restrictions might have for the pandemic. In other words, since they know the restrictions are at least punishing the unvaccinated, they are happy to continue the restrictions.

That is what I am saying. We can debate whether they deserve punishment or not, but I doubt you will convince me or the majority of others. Vaccination was not too much to ask. I will agree they were not asked very well, but they were asked many, many, many, many times, and each time they were asked to help out, they said no. My rights, my opinion, my life, me, me, me, is more important then society.

I think a little spanking for that is warranted.


----------



## damian13ster

I agree with you on the point that majority of Canadians are simply happy seeing others being punished - whether there is science behind it or not. That is scary.
Also, yes. People are entrenched. This is no longer about science. It is about religion. 

"Too much to ask" - now that is completely subjective. Whether giving up bodily autonomy at a request of a government is too much to ask or not depends on your worldview. The problem is that people are no longer capable of accepting that others might not have the same view as you do, and that your world view is not the only 'right' world view.

And your last two sentences don't really make sense. If vaccines prevented infections then I would agree with you that those who believe bodily autonomy is a human right can be seen as selfish. Since the vaccinations don't stop infections though, that argument loses any merit - by not getting vaccinated you hurt only yourself. (and don't get started on hospitalizations, etc. because there are multiple ways to prevent hospitalizations that are not talked about, not mandated, and self-destructive behavior that is not only not discouraged, but straight up promoted in society).
Vaccinations don't decrease the spread. There is no correlation between vaccination rate and case rate.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

damian13ster said:


> In the meantime, UK, one of the most boosted countries in the world (behind Gibraltar, Chile, Iceland, Israel, Uruguay) just beat the record for highest amount of daily cases in the entire pandemic.


Omicron is super mild, it has lowest hospitalization rates and deaths among all respiratory diseases. This is the end of covid pandemic, sorry big pharma, but omicron is the best vaccine or booster you can get. It’s free and completely harmless


----------



## Eder

Not enough is known about Omicron to declare it harmless or even less dangerous but we can at least hope.


----------



## OptsyEagle

damian13ster said:


> And your last two sentences don't really make sense.


Actually the last two sentences were the point. These restrictions are around because the majority of Canadians accept them. They accept them for scientific reasons, although as mentioned, those reasons will vary like the weather, but overall they accept them because they are very disappointed in this unvaccinated group. Right or wrong it is what it is.

You may call vaccination some kind equivalent to electro shock, brain transplanting, mind blowing procedure but in the end it is a simple needle with safe vaccine in it. A needle that has been administered to billions and billions of people, of all ages, everywhere in the world. These people are being monitored every which way from Sunday, by more scientists and media and youtube fanatics then any other drug ever used on this planet. It is not like we blew a whistle and asked them to advance into machine gun fire and take Vimy Ridge. It is a freakin vaccination. We needed them to help, but they said no.

Listen, this punishment is just a time out. They will be accepted again. We always knew we had some people that think differently, in our society, but we were hoping that they would see that the rest of us were relying on them and for that reason alone, perhaps they would help out. They didn't. So we gave them a time out. Probably in the summer we will let them come out of their corner and rejoin society again. Hopefully they learned a lesson. Next time when you're asked to help out, please do your part. That is how our society works and it is the only way can work.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> I am saying that in a political society, where the science is debatable and societal acceptance of rules and law must be agreeable to the majority, these type of rules (restrictions) will take place.
> 
> Damian you have been arguing your points for hundreds of pages and got virtually no one to agree with you because whatever your opinion is on Covid, you can easily find science that will justify that point. That is about all we know for sure at this stage of the pandemic so the public has given up on "the science". *They are as happy to see the unvaccinated punished for their selfishness as they are for any benefit the restrictions might have for the pandemic. In other words, since they know the restrictions are at least punishing the unvaccinated, they are happy to continue the restrictions.
> 
> That is what I am saying.* We can debate whether they deserve punishment or not, but I doubt you will convince me or the majority of others. Vaccination was not too much to ask. I will agree they were not asked very well, but they were asked many, many, many, many times, and each time they were asked to help out, they said no.* My rights, my opinion, my life, me, me, me, is more important then society.
> 
> I think a little spanking for that is warranted.*


 ... I would agree with the last 2 sentences but not with the view that the vaxxeds like to see the "unvaxxeds" being punished. And stop perpetuating that BS. 

The fact of the matter is EVERYONE, including the vaxxeds are being punished with the unbelieveably full of poo-poo unvaxxed me me me and only me 'cause "I, me, myself" got rights. Like I said - go get your own island or planet and practice that, your right.


----------



## damian13ster

As long as your point is that majority can punish minority just because they want to - then yes, I guess. Simply never thought Canadians hold such values when immigrating here 15 years ago.

I am not comparing the things you listed at all. Simply believe in bodily autonomy, especially since violation of it doesn't protect rest of society from infections (this can not be overstated - you are NOT protecting your kids, your grandparents, or your neighbor by getting vaccinated - you are just protecting yourself).

Severity of punishment doesn't make it any less of violation. If you don't see a dangerous precedent staring you directly in the face then we will simply have to disagree. 
None of atrocities in history or in the present happened instantaneously - they were all gradual, slowly increasing in severity, and all were supported by majority.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Hopefully you will at least agree that the unvaccinated were asked to help out and they said no. 

Let's leave it at that. We've argued all the reasons enough.


----------



## damian13ster

OptsyEagle said:


> Hopefully you will at least agree that the unvaccinated were asked to help out and they said no. Let's leave it at that.


They were asked, and they had a right to say no. Do I think they are smart for exercising that right? No. They do have a RIGHT to bodily autonomy, at least in liberal democracy. 
Same way a smoker can say no.
Same way a fat person can say no.

We don't punish those people, nor do we force medical procedures onto them. Because bodily autonomy is an important human right, even if exercising it leads to poor health outcomes of an individual (again, vaccines don't prevent spread)


----------



## OptsyEagle

They had a right to say no but an obligation to say yes. That is the point you and they are missing.

No one is interested anymore in their reasons. Only their actions. As I said, this will all be forgotten in time but for now it is a very sore spot with the vaccinated. I am sure they have noticed that. I imagine the unvaccinated feel the same way. It is what it is.

You were wondering why we allow these rules to continue, in the face of whatever science you were touting at the time, and I explained why.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> I think you missed the answer in the post.
> I want them to tell the truth and tell the vaccinated they have no protection against infection, and they should act accordingly - that means no two-tier society either and no hate, division.
> Think restrictions to anyone under 50 are useless. They make up tiny % of hospitalizations, they aren't going to overwhelm healthcare system (80+ alone account for more hospitalizations than entire 0-50 age group). I would suggest senior homes be isolated, and seniors be given support and/or temporary housing (or their families if senior doesn't want/can't move) if they feel they are at risk and want to isolate themselves. All people who come in contact with them given rapid test immediately before coming in contact.
> 
> In healthcare, the % of funding going to hospital care vs administration needs to change. Also, the scheduling of procedures needs to change. University hospitals in Ontario are interesting case in that. Listened to administrator from there on 630 CHED radio - they managed to actually INCREASE amount of procedures from pre-pandemic by more uniform planning of them (apparently front-loading is common in Canadian health care system, resulting in high inefficiency, staff burnout and frustration).
> 
> Rapid tests for everyone. Have them in pharmacies, have them in vending machines on the street - everywhere.
> People who test positive immediately given PCR test and based on result - their salary is then covered for next 14 days.


First of all, it's clear that vaccinated people have a greater survival rate against covid, that's not undisputable, even if people get infected, they are a lot less likely to die or get serious illness.

I see you like cherry picking 50 years, but they don't count for a tiny percentage, they account for 24%, just under the 24.4% of the 80+: COVID-19 daily epidemiology update - Canada.ca

As for those unvaccinated, 80% of them make up the hospitalization, and 76.1% of the deaths, so to try to imply that vaccination isn't a factor is foolish.

As for the 2-tier society, that's the unvaccinated doing. They don't want to be part of society or its greater good, then that's on them.

You don't remember when we did isolate the senior homes? All those news articles/stories about how people couldn't get to talk to their relatives? It was tried and the public said no more, so sure if you think you can convince people that's a good idea, go ahead, but it was already tried.

The whole admin percentage for health care is a red herring that everyone likes to flog. Paperwork has to get staffed and medical records updated, if you take out the admin staff you are forcing the doctors and nurses to do that meaning they are taking their time out of actually treating patients. And the issue isn't funding that's the problem, the issue is that we don't have a supply of nurses and doctors. Part of it is self-inflected by limiting residency spots, but that's also due to the fact that doctors/nurses don't have the time to take care of new doctors/nurses while still providing medical care.

Rapid tests are pointless simply because they'll give a false sense of security, and I repeat what I said before, unless you plan on forcing people who test positive to isolate, they do nothing.
If you recall at the onset of covid, the direction was that people coming in from out of country were to self-isolate, yet we got community spread pretty quickly, in other words, asking for people to comply on their own will not work.


----------



## damian13ster

Why do you believe they have an obligation to say yes?

And it is only a sore spot with the vaccinated because they are being lied to.
They still believe vaccinations stop the spread.
They still believe that vaccinations will end the pandemic.

Those two statements are lies, yet common belief among people in Canada.


And to your latter post:
I never disputed your first statement. Stupidity and poor lifestyle choices aren't cause for discrimination though.
Yes, 24% is a small percentage of hospitalizations by a group where vast majority of Canadian population falls under.
Your percent values no longer hold true. Perhaps from beginning of the pandemic, not currently. Variants changed effectiveness of the vaccines.

No, 2-tier society is the doing of those in power - it is always the case.

And we did OK protecting seniors. That was a good tactic in general, and in my proposal you are making it voluntary - so people who want to will be isolated, and people who don't want to - won't.
It is their right to choose if they want to take extra precautions or take extra risks in order to enjoy life at the moment.

The percentage is not talked about in absolute terms. It is talked about in relative terms - compared to other mature democracies with public health care system.

They provide significantly better security because of 80% + accuracy in catching infection vs 0-20% vaccines have.
Yes, I believe forcing sick people to isolate is both legal and morally right, because sick people spread disease. Of course, given they receive full compensation and benefits. Unvaccinated people don't spread disease - infected people do. There is a major difference

The conditions people were isolating with made the spread not only possible, but probable. Even with the infamous hotels. Execution was terrible because plans were made and implemented by incompetent people.
And that is ultimately the root cause of all the problems - incompetent people in charge.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Eder said:


> Not enough is known about Omicron to declare it harmless or even less dangerous but we can at least hope.


----------



## OptsyEagle

damian13ster said:


> Why do you believe they have an obligation to say yes?


Because they did. We had a societal problem. We needed all of society to help out. The unvaccinated are part of our society, so of course we asked them to help out ... and they said no.

Right now the vaccinated are very disappointed in the behavior of the unvaccinated, and for the time being we would prefer not to be around them. It will pass, but for now that is how the majority of Canadians feel. This is not complicated. It does not need a slew of links and studies and scientists to chime in. It is an opinion, but politics at the end of the day, is just the sum of all opinions. Right or wrong, it is what it is.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> Yes, 24% is a small percentage of hospitalizations by a group where vast majority of Canadian population falls under.
> Your percent values no longer hold true. Perhaps from beginning of the pandemic, not currently. Variants changed effectiveness of the vaccines.


The percentages were from the Canada website which has up to date data. I have I feeling you just like being contrary for the sake of it.



damian13ster said:


> And we did OK protecting seniors. That was a good tactic in general, and in my proposal you are making it voluntary - so people who want to will be isolated, and people who don't want to - won't.
> It is their right to choose if they want to take extra precautions or take extra risks in order to enjoy life at the moment.


And no we didn't do well with the senior homes, that's why the first wave was concentrated in the senior homes. As it turns out, having workers work in multiple homes spreads the virus. Limiting visitors probably didn't accomplish all that much.



damian13ster said:


> Unvaccinated people don't spread disease - infected people do. There is a major difference


Infected unvaccinated people spread disease a lot longer than infected vaccinated people. That's a major difference. 

Cool, so you're fine with the whole forced hotel quarantine process. You're not going to call it an infringement of individual rights or concentration camps? We can agree on that one then.


----------



## Eder

bgc_fan said:


> As for those unvaccinated, 80% of them make up the hospitalization, and 76.1% of the deaths, so to try to imply that vaccination isn't a factor is foolish.


Not a fair or correct statement as for the first 16 months of Covid 100% of cases in hospital & 100% of deaths were unvaccinated.
What we need right now is to see if boosters mitigate Omicrom or are they worthless. I 've had my booster but wont blame anyone for waiting 3-4 months for an Omicron specific shot, especially if the variant turns out to be weak.


----------



## damian13ster

OptsyEagle said:


> Because they did. We had a societal problem. We needed all of society to help out. The unvaccinated are part of our society, so of course we asked them to help out ... and they said no.
> 
> Right now the vaccinated are very disappointed in the behavior of the unvaccinated, and for the time being we would prefer not to be around them. It will pass, but for now that is how the majority of Canadians feel. This is not complicated. It does not need a slew of links and studies and scientists to chime in. It is an opinion, but politics at the end of the day, is just the sum of all opinions. Right or wrong, it is what it is.


But them being vaccinated doesn't help society any more than you not being fat. Just because you have societal problems doesn't mean that every solution someone comes up with, especially if it is proven to be completely ineffective, can justify discrimination.
Just because you have perception based on wrong assumptions that unvaccinated are to blame, doesn't make it a reality. So you are the one who needs to educate yourself in order to change your perception to one that more reflects the reality, not excuse discrimination of others by citing your perception.

Minority being discriminated by majority due to mis-perception of reality doesn't excuse the discrimination. Literally EVERY single act of discrimination, genocide, et al. can be explained by 'from perception of majority the minority is to blame'. Do we really want to go down that path?


Look at the time frame that website is looking at. I said that it is currently no longer the case. Not with Delta, not with Omicron.

Yeah, if only those workers were tested each time before entering homes...... Even with 80% efficiency, there is only 4% chance ((1-0.8)^2) they would spread disease from one home to another.
Regardless, relative to other countries Canada had less seniors pass away - we had higher excess deaths among young people.

Infected people spread disease. Whether they are vaccinated or not.
Uninfected people don't spread disease. Whether they are vaccinated or not.
Makes sense that infected people would be separated. Doesn't make sense that unvaccinated would be.

No, I am not fine with forced quarantine hotel - never said I were. What I said is the way it was introduced it was doomed to fail because it was done by incompetent people. It was also quarantining uninfected people same as infected ones so was completely pointless.

Isolation of infected people I am fine with. Whether that isolation is at home if someone has conditions to do so (other countries introduced that, basically had to take a selfie at home or wave through a window to contact tracer at random times) or if isolation is by publicly-paid for accommodation if a person chooses to do so due to lack of conditions to isolate at home.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> They had a right to say no but an obligation to say yes. That is the point you and they are missing.


But as much as it's an obligation that you should fulfil, people have a similar obligation to respect your right to say no.

What is happening with vaccine opt out is a two way breakdown, both sides are neglecting their respective social and moral obligations.

Secondly since the obligations are not equal, I think the mandators are on the wrong side.
Infringing on human rights "for the greater good" is EXACTLY why we have human rights.


----------



## sags

The Charter of Rights contains provision for the rights of society to outweigh individual rights.

The classic examples are not yelling fire in a crowded theater, or not allowed to have sex while infected with AIDs without informed consent.

The courts have consistently upheld dominant societal rights.


----------



## damian13ster

You can throw that provision out the moment it was proven that vaccinated people infect others.
And also this provision is precisely why infected people can be asked to be isolated.

The provision also specifies what are the limits to that power, what factors are to be considered, and how the human rights violation can occur. It isn't free for all. You don't get to lie that vaccinations stop the spread and then discriminate against minority, otherwise holocaust and residential schools would be legal in their respective countries......oh, wait....

The provision you mentioned is also the precise reason why people believing the lie that vaccination stop the spread is crucial for government and that's why they let it propagate. Once they acknowledge the truth - the human rights violation will no longer be excused by the provision.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Eder said:


> boosters mitigate Omicrom


 Mitigate already super mild infection? There’s thousands of new omicron cases and what? One person died from co morbidity with omicron


----------



## HappilyRetired

Ukrainiandude said:


> Mitigate already super mild infection? There’s thousands of new omicron cases and what? One person died from co morbidity with omicron


Big Pharma really wants everyone to get another shot. It doesn't matter if Omicron is harmless.


----------



## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> Not a fair or correct statement as for the first 16 months of Covid 100% of cases in hospital & 100% of deaths were unvaccinated.
> What we need right now is to see if boosters mitigate Omicrom or are they worthless. I 've had my booster but wont blame anyone for waiting 3-4 months for an Omicron specific shot, especially if the variant turns out to be weak.


Hardly unfair. The fact is they were unvaccinated. Whether it happened before or after vaccines were available is irrelevant. If deaths due to covid started decreasing because of vaccines, that means they are effective.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> But them being vaccinated doesn't help society any more than you not being fat. Just because you have societal problems doesn't mean that every solution someone comes up with, especially if it is proven to be completely ineffective, can justify discrimination.
> Just because you have perception based on wrong assumptions that unvaccinated are to blame, doesn't make it a reality. So you are the one who needs to educate yourself in order to change your perception to one that more reflects the reality, not excuse discrimination of others by citing your perception.
> 
> Minority being discriminated by majority due to mis-perception of reality doesn't excuse the discrimination. Literally EVERY single act of discrimination, genocide, et al. can be explained by 'from perception of majority the minority is to blame'. Do we really want to go down that path?
> 
> 
> Look at the time frame that website is looking at. I said that it is currently no longer the case. Not with Delta, not with Omicron.
> 
> Yeah, if only those workers were tested each time before entering homes...... Even with 80% efficiency, there is only 4% chance ((1-0.8)^2) they would spread disease from one home to another.
> Regardless, relative to other countries Canada had less seniors pass away - we had higher excess deaths among young people.
> 
> Infected people spread disease. Whether they are vaccinated or not.
> Uninfected people don't spread disease. Whether they are vaccinated or not.
> Makes sense that infected people would be separated. Doesn't make sense that unvaccinated would be.
> 
> No, I am not fine with forced quarantine hotel - never said I were. What I said is the way it was introduced it was doomed to fail because it was done by incompetent people. It was also quarantining uninfected people same as infected ones so was completely pointless.
> 
> Isolation of infected people I am fine with. Whether that isolation is at home if someone has conditions to do so (other countries introduced that, basically had to take a selfie at home or wave through a window to contact tracer at random times) or if isolation is by publicly-paid for accommodation if a person chooses to do so due to lack of conditions to isolate at home.


Already sliding down to Godwin's Law... or did we already pass that hundreds of posts ago?

At the start of the pandemic, rapid testing kits did not exist and those that did were really inaccurate.

I don't even know what you're trying to argue about Omicron/Delta/Alpha, the point is pretty clear, getting vaccinated reduces hospitalization and death. Even though people talk about loss of effectiveness, they still protect better than not being vaccinated.

Basically, you just think that if someone tests positive we should just let them off and assume they'll do the right thing. The same people who would refuse to wear masks and/or get vaccinated. The same ones who cry about their freedoms, will meekly go home and self-isolate for 2 weeks. I think we can see where the flaw is in that thinking.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> Hardly unfair. The fact is they were unvaccinated. Whether it happened before or after vaccines were available is irrelevant. If deaths due to covid started decreasing because of vaccines, that means they are effective.


What matters though is original strain vs delta vs omicron. Data for original strain is largely irrelevant for delta, which is largely irrelevant for omicron. There are huge differences in vaccine effectiveness between those variants that the statistic you have showed simply doesn't account for.
And again, I am talking about infection. With alpha protection was relatively high. With Delta, about 20%, with Omicron, about 0%. There is a difference, especially if you are looking at 'societal benefit' to justify breaking human rights.

And as usual, you are completely misrepresenting the position.
I will quote because it appears you didn't read it:

"Isolation of infected people I am fine with. Whether that isolation is at home if someone has conditions to do so (other countries introduced that, basically had to take a selfie at home or wave through a window to contact tracer at random times) or if isolation is by publicly-paid for accommodation if a person chooses to do so due to lack of conditions to isolate at home."

Not exactly 'letting them off'


----------



## damian13ster

Pfizer Booster Shots Are Effective Against Omicron Variant, Israeli Study Says


The findings also show that those who had their second Pfizer dose five months ago or more had little protection against the variant.




www.wsj.com





Zero neutralizing ability 5 months after 2nd dose.
Third dose produces some protection, although lower than against Delta

Of course zero mention of that in Canadian main media


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> What matters though is original strain vs delta vs omicron. Data for original strain is largely irrelevant for delta, which is largely irrelevant for omicron. There are huge differences in vaccine effectiveness between those variants that the statistic you have showed simply doesn't account for.
> And again, I am talking about infection. With alpha protection was relatively high. With Delta, about 20%, with Omicron, about 0%. There is a difference, especially if you are looking at 'societal benefit' to justify breaking human rights.
> 
> And as usual, you are completely misrepresenting the position.
> I will quote because it appears you didn't read it:
> 
> "Isolation of infected people I am fine with. Whether that isolation is at home if someone has conditions to do so (other countries introduced that, basically had to take a selfie at home or wave through a window to contact tracer at random times) or if isolation is by publicly-paid for accommodation if a person chooses to do so due to lack of conditions to isolate at home."
> 
> Not exactly 'letting them off'


Look. The point is even if there is a decrease in effectiveness, the vaccines still help. The vaccine protection isn't 0 for Omicron and I'd like you to show some proof that it is. 

No, you didn't understand my quote which is that you are expecting people to self-isolate without monitoring on the honor system. It's unlikely that we'd ever hire people to do the check-ups and doing selfies isn't going to necessarily be useful because people can easily take a picture of their wall and use that as their background. If people don't want to self-isolate, they'll get around it, it's that simple. And people who are all about their freedoms certainly aren't going to follow the rules.


----------



## sags

Vaccines are not a cure for covid and were never advertised to stop infections.

The goal is to prevent the worst outcomes to keep the healthcare system functioning.

What do some people think would happen if all the healthcare workers get sick, or the paramedics, or police, or others necessary to keep society running ?

If food factories or grocery stores have all their workers home with covid........who is going to do the work.

This herd immunity nonsense is so myopic and stupid.


----------



## damian13ster

I am not expecting people to self-isolate without monitoring. Didn't say that, hence the direct quote proving that.
What your mis-perception about what I am thinking is, I don't care. My words are clear and they do not indicate I am asking for lack of monitoring.

Why not hire people to do check-ups? We hired contract tracers? Other countries did hire people, why not here?

I think you misunderstand the system. Selfies had to be very specific. I went through that - there is no way to premanufacture them.

The proof is literally directly above your post. Click the link. it clearly states:
"Zero neutralizing ability after 5 months"

Yes, some people might get around. People do tend to break a law. If caught they are fined for it. Just because there are people who break the law doesn't mean law shouldn't exist at all.
And a law that isolates infected is much superior and much less discriminatory than law that penalizes both infected and healthy.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> I am not expecting people to self-isolate without monitoring. Didn't say that, hence the direct quote proving that.
> What your mis-perception about what I am thinking is, I don't care. My words are clear and they do not indicate I am asking for lack of monitoring.
> 
> Why not hire people to do check-ups? We hired contract tracers? Other countries did hire people, why not here?
> 
> I think you misunderstand the system. Selfies had to be very specific. I went through that - there is no way to premanufacture them.
> 
> The proof is literally directly above your post. Click the link. it clearly states:
> "Zero neutralizing ability after 5 months"
> 
> Yes, some people might get around. People do tend to break a law. If caught they are fined for it. Just because there are people who break the law doesn't mean law shouldn't exist at all.
> And a law that isolates infected is much superior and much less discriminatory than law that penalizes both infected and healthy.


I'd say money would be an issue. But as it is we don't have sufficient contact tracers given that priority is given to those in vulnerable situations. We aren't monitoring everyone who comes up positive.

Unfortunately that's a paywalled link. Here's another one: 2 Pfizer doses can’t fight Omicron, but booster helps - ISRAEL21c

I'd wait to actually see the study because it's pretty limited at this time (20 people and over 6 months).


----------



## damian13ster

Money is an issue?
The idiots we have in charge spent 500bln$ achieving pretty much nothing. You could hire entire army for a fraction of that.

Yeah, the study is exactly what I posted:
"Zero neutralizing ability 5 months after 2nd dose.
Third dose produces some protection, although lower than against Delta"

And the article:

“The bad news is that people who received the second dose five or six months ago do not have any neutralization ability whatsoever against the Omicron, while they do have some against the Delta and much more, even, against the wild [original] type,” she said. “That is very worrisome.”

“There is significant protection from the booster dose. It is lower than the neutralization ability against the Delta – about four times lower – and against the wild type, but we are very optimistic,” she said.

“We still don’t know whether this will decrease with time, and we’ll have to check that,” Regev-Yochay added.


Since Omicron is already dominant in Ontario, guess vaccinated with 2 doses have as much protection as unvaccinated - so do we still continue with 2-tier society and discriminate just because you are pissed off someone made different health choices than you did?


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> Money is an issue?
> The idiots we have in charge spent 500bln$ achieving pretty much nothing. You could hire entire army for a fraction of that.
> 
> Yeah, the study is exactly what I posted:
> "Zero neutralizing ability 5 months after 2nd dose.
> Third dose produces some protection, although lower than against Delta"
> 
> And the article:
> 
> “The bad news is that people who received the second dose five or six months ago do not have any neutralization ability whatsoever against the Omicron, while they do have some against the Delta and much more, even, against the wild [original] type,” she said. “That is very worrisome.”
> 
> “There is significant protection from the booster dose. It is lower than the neutralization ability against the Delta – about four times lower – and against the wild type, but we are very optimistic,” she said.
> 
> “We still don’t know whether this will decrease with time, and we’ll have to check that,” Regev-Yochay added.
> 
> 
> Since Omicron is already dominant in Ontario, guess vaccinated with 2 doses have as much protection as unvaccinated - so do we still continue with 2-tier society and discriminate just because you are pissed off someone made different health choices than you did?


Likewise a South African study states that 2 doses has a 33% efficiency to prevent infections: Pfizer vaccine 70 percent effective against omicron hospitalizations: research

So the jury is still out.

As for Ontario, do you want to provide the link to the fact that Omicron is dominant? According to their daily report, it's far from dominant, 14 Dec: 31 new Omicron cases vs 660 new Delta.


https://files.ontario.ca/moh-covid-19-report-en-2021-12-15.pdf



Oh, since you like recent data so much, you might want to look at page 2 for the demographics of new cases:










Pissed off that someone made a different health choice? If they haven't been vaccinated they're still likely to get hospitalized if they get infected, that much is obvious. Being in social settings is going to increase that probability and result in an increased likelihood that they'll add to the ICU case load.


----------



## damian13ster

What do you mean by 'likely'?
And if there is no neutralizing activity then there is no protection.
South African study doesn't look at protection after x months. The both studies can be true. Qatar study has shown that Pfizer provided about 70% protection against Delta in first month, and down to 20% after 4 months.

Clearly efficiency drops off and drops off quickly. We don't know what exactly it is in months 0-4 (looking at SA, probably 33% in month 1). We do now know the protection is zero after 5 months.
So I will repeat my question, this time specifying:

Since Omicron is already dominant in Ontario, guess vaccinated with 2 doses five months ago have as much protection as unvaccinated - so do we still continue with 2-tier society and discriminate just because you are pissed off someone made different health choices than you did?


*








Mass immunization blitz aimed at slowing spread of Omicron variant in Ontario


Ontario doctors, nurses and other health-care providers are being asked to drop everything to get third doses of COVID-19 vaccine into millions of people.




ottawacitizen.com




*
"Wednesday’s announcements came as the highly contagious Omicron variant, first confirmed in the province just weeks ago, is now dominant in Ontario. Public Health Ontario released a report Wednesday estimating Omicron accounted for more than 80 per cent of new cases in the province and each case was infecting 7.7 times more people than the Delta variant. "


----------



## sags

"Dominant" just means that it is spreading at a faster rate than Delta. There are still far more Delta cases because it has been around longer.

Also, infections can take up to a week to 14 days to manifest itself and patients may delay going to the ER until they get very sick.

A week or more from now, we will likely see the balance between Delta and Omicron flip. We now have 2 variants hunting for victims.


----------



## damian13ster

I will just copy the quote and this time bolden the important part since you seem to get lost in 4 lines of text:
"Wednesday’s announcements came as the highly contagious Omicron variant, first confirmed in the province just weeks ago, is now dominant in Ontario. Public Health Ontario released a report Wednesday *estimating Omicron accounted for more than 80 per cent of new cases in the province *and each case was infecting 7.7 times more people than the Delta variant. "


----------



## sags

"New" cases being the key word.

The Delta has infected more people so while it is spreading at a slower rate, the case numbers are still higher.

Omicron has only been around for a few weeks. The rate of spread makes it the dominant virus.


----------



## damian13ster

So? Restrictions are in place to prevent "new" cases. They won't prevent cases that have already happened......
Since "new" cases are by vast majority Omicron, and people who were vaccinated more than 5 months ago have ZERO protection, exactly same as unvaccinated, then why would they have more freedoms? Science doesn't support that at all.


----------



## sags

Vaccinated people need the booster shot, but do retain a level of protection against hospitalization and severe symptoms.

It isn't a great situation, but it is better than nothing. People getting Delta with no protection are in grave danger, even if they are young and healthy.

Omicron..........maybe, hopefully not so bad, but we still don't know for sure. Until we do.....we have to do what we can.

The truth is that we have to get rid of this virus, regardless of the effort or cost. If we don't....we could well be facing an extinction level mutation.

This virus has already shown a propensity to mutate quickly and there is no indication that is going to change if it continues to spread.

We may be lucky, extremely lucky, if the Omicron produces mild symptoms. It could have been much worse if it spread as it does and was more lethal.

That kind of virus would lead to global panic never seen before. We don't want to go down that road.


----------



## damian13ster

Why do you think they retain a level of protection against hospitalization and severe symptoms? You got that from
"no neutralizing activity"?

We don't know if booster is anything other than repeat of second dose.
SA study shows 2nd dose gives about 33% protection.
Booster gives protection "4 times less than against Delta" - and against Delta first month has a bit over 70% of protection.
Need to wait for more studies on whether getting a booster is any different than getting a second shot in terms of lasting protection. The protection might follow exact same curve - guess we will find out soon enough since Israel implemented boosters a while ago.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> The truth is that we have to get rid of this virus, regardless of the effort or cost. If we don't....we could well be facing an extinction level mutation.
> 
> This virus has already shown a propensity to mutate quickly and there is no indication that is going to change if it continues to spread.
> 
> We may be lucky, extremely lucky, if the Omicron produces mild symptoms. It could have been much worse if it spread as it does and was more lethal.
> 
> That kind of virus would lead to global panic never seen before. We don't want to go down that road.


You're ignoring what's actually happening. The virus has mutated to Omicron which is weak and has a 100% survival rate. No one has died. It's not lethal. Spreading very fast is the best thing that can happen.

Stop fear mongering and making ridiculous claims. Trust the facts and trust science.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> Why do you think they retain a level of protection against hospitalization and severe symptoms? You got that from
> "no neutralizing activity"?
> 
> We don't know if booster is anything other than repeat of second dose.
> SA study shows 2nd dose gives about 33% protection.
> Booster gives protection "4 times less than against Delta" - and against Delta first month has a bit over 70% of protection.
> Need to wait for more studies on whether getting a booster is any different than getting a second shot in terms of lasting protection. The protection might follow exact same curve - guess we will find out soon enough since Israel implemented boosters a while ago.


If you read again, it's 33% protection against infection, and 70% against hospitalization.

I'm not saying that boosters aren't a bad idea and it's good that they are ramping up the schedule, I'm saying that right now it's premature to say that 2 doses provide 0 protection based on a sample of 20 people.


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> You're ignoring what's actually happening. The virus has mutated to Omicron which is weak and has a 100% survival rate. No one has died. It's not lethal. Spreading very fast is the best thing that can happen.
> 
> Stop fear mongering and making ridiculous claims. Trust the facts and trust science.


almost nobody has died, they've got at least one reported death.
But yes, it looks like this might be a way out, lets hope it doesn't get a lethal variant.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> But as much as it's an obligation that you should fulfil, people have a similar obligation to respect your right to say no.


But they did not have that right to say no and still be part of our society. Society needed them. They are part of our society. They had an obligation to help out...but they said no. Society is a group effort, not an individual one.

This argument got started because Damian was confused why we allow the restrictions to continue. That is why. They let us down. We are very disappointed in their refusal to help out and for the time being we would rather not include them in our society. As I said, it is just a time out. They deserve it and they should know they deserve it. Next time, they should do their part.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Correction above. They did have the right to say no but they also had an obligation to society to say yes. That is the point.

It is like a volunteer army during wartime. Since it is volunteer each citizen of military age has the right not to go and fight for their country. That said, since they benefit from the protection and freedoms that war is supposedly about, they should know that they have an obligation to join and do their part. If they exercise their legal right not to go fight you have to assume they are going to experience more then a few cold shoulders as they move within the society where they live. They can spout their reasons not to join up all they want, but most citizens are not going to appreciate their refusal to do their part for such an important cause. They benefit from society but at the same time they refuse to help their society. 

This is the exact same thing.


----------



## damian13ster

OptsyEagle said:


> *But they did not have that right to say no and still be part of our society. Society needed them.* They are part of our society. They had an obligation to help out...but they said no. Society is a group effort, not an individual one.
> 
> This argument got started because Damian was confused why we allow the restrictions to continue. That is why. They let us down. We are very disappointed in their refusal to help out and for the time being we would rather not include them in our society. As I said, it is just a time out. They deserve it and they should know they deserve it. Next time, they should do their part.


That is your opinion.
Consistent with opinion China has about Muslims
Consistent with opinion Canada had about Natives
Consistent with opinion Germany had about Jews.

You don't get to decide whether someone is needed in society or not and then discriminate and break their human rights over it. We want to avoid mistakes done in the past yet you are arguing that the victims of human rights abuse 'should know better'.

The claims you are making are ridiculous. There is no neutralizing ability against Omicron. Vaccinated people spread the virus. Vaccinations won't end the pandemic. Just because you have mis-perception that pandemic wouldn't be ongoing if not for unvaccinated doesn't mean you get to abuse them.

That's why human rights were developed in the first place. To protect minority from majority that decides to use it as scapegoats and abuse them.

Again - given data coming out against Omicron. Should people who got 2nd dose 5 months ago be considered unvaccinated?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

damian13ster said:


> Zero neutralizing ability 5 months after 2nd dose.
> Third dose produces some protection, although lower than against Delta"


Why do you need protection against extremely mild respiratory virus?


----------



## OptsyEagle

Again and for the last time. Nothing I am saying has anything to do with whether we are right or wrong or on side with science or offside or anything to do with whether vaccination works or not.

We asked these people to help out and they said no.  That is the problem. That is the only reason the "violation of their human rights" as you call it is happening. You were confused. I explained it. It is not me deciding this, it is the majority deciding this. Only the majority can ever decide these things. How else could this violation continue if most people did not agree with it.

The best approach forward from here IMO. Let it be. Everyone is at fault here but it is what it is. If the unvaccinated can at least take something away from what I am saying, is that the vast majority of Canadians feel, that when they needed you the most, you let them down.

Whether you care about that or not, I could care less. I just thought someone should point it out to you...and Damian.


----------



## damian13ster

No, I am not confused.
I fully know why the human rights violation is happening. Don't need an explanation of it and agree with you.
It is happening because majority wants human rights violation.
That was always the case, and that will always be the case.

Victims are not at fault. Abusers are. And majority of Germans felt discrimination of Jews was justified. Majority of Canadians felt that residential schools are needed and forced sterilization is a valid policy.
'Majority wants it' is not an excuse for human rights violation. Never was, and never will be.

It is incomprehensible that you are defending the position. Absolutely blows my mind and shows what a shithole this place became. Despicable


----------



## sags

No human rights are being violated. People have no right to contaminate others with an infectious disease.

Governments number one priority is to protect it's citizens. Employers have a legal obligation to protect their workers.

What specific rights do the unv-vaccinated have that trump all others ?

Answer........none.


----------



## damian13ster

I will repeat the simple, yes or no question. 

Given that there is no neutralizing ability of 2nd dose after 5 months.
Do you treat people vaccinated 5 months ago the same as unvaccinated?
They provide exactly same risk to rest of society.


----------



## sags

Your question is based on the fallacy that vaccines don't provide any protection.


----------



## KaeJS

Are we still going on about human rights?

You can't force someone to take the vax.
Those that are scared can stay at home where it is safe.

Since when did the world become a place where everyone has to cater to your feelings? If you're not comfortable, then stay home. It's not the job of unvaxxed people to make sure you feel comfortable.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Your question is based on the fallacy that vaccines don't provide any protection.


No, the question is based on science that vaccines don't provide any protection after 5 months against Omicron.
It isn't fallacy. It is research.

So answer the question (and I will change a word so you can't nitpick)

Assuming that there is no neutralizing ability of 2nd dose after 5 months.
Do you treat people vaccinated 5 months ago the same as unvaccinated?
They provide exactly same risk to rest of society.


----------



## sags

There is overwhelming evidence that vaccines lower the risk of infection, hospitalization and death.

It is also known that vaccines are just one of the tools we have to prevent the virus from spreading.

Once again you make a false assumption upon which to base a question.

You also don't recognize that a third vaccine shot boosts the immune response to covid.

It may be necessary for people to take a regular pill or spray to maintain high immunity levels to prevent covid.

We don't have those tools yet, but they are being developed.

Your theory is to let the virus run until there is a mutation that kills us.

I don't think you have any understanding for what a situation like that would look like.

There would be mass panic, no food, infrastructure, healthcare or essential services.

That situation would make the virus disaster movies look like a Sunday picnic.


----------



## damian13ster

You just keep ignoring science. There was research posted here:

"People who received the second dose 5 or 6 months ago do not have any neutralization ability against the Omicron. While they do have some against the Delta (strain)," Gili Regev-Yochay, director of the Infectious Diseases Unit at Sheba, told reporters.









Israeli study finds Pfizer COVID-19 booster protects against Omicron


Israeli researchers said on Saturday they found that a three-shot course of the Pfizer/BioNTech , COVID-19 vaccine provided significant protection against the new Omicron variant.




www.reuters.com





So I will repeat the question:

Assuming that there is no neutralizing ability of 2nd dose after 5 months.
Do you treat people vaccinated 5 months ago the same as unvaccinated?
They provide exactly same risk to rest of society.

Responding to your edit: 
I said nothing about booster. Once someone is boosted, in a first month they have 33% protection. That's what science shows and I am not disputing that.

Question is clear and precise: answer it:

Assuming that there is no neutralizing ability of 2nd dose after 5 months.
Do you treat *people vaccinated 5 months ago* the same as unvaccinated?
They provide exactly same risk to rest of society.


----------



## OptsyEagle

KaeJS said:


> Are we still going on about human rights?
> 
> You can't force someone to take the vax.


That is correct as you have obviously noticed. We can ask them and we can certainly be disappointed with their answers. 

If you ask a friend to help you build a shed and he says no, you can't force them to help, but I doubt you will appreciate the negative response for help. That is what is going on here. It is a message that needs to be sent. We are disappointed in the unvaccinated refusal to do their part. We needed their help and they let us down.

We will get over it. We just need a little more time.


----------



## damian13ster

Yet you have no right to have your friend lose their jobs, societal privileges, freedom of movement, just because he didn't do what you wanted him to do.
Imagine that........

And you still didn't answer same question that sags and other segregationists are refusing to answer for some reason:

Assuming that there is no neutralizing ability of 2nd dose after 5 months.
Do you treat *people vaccinated 5 months ago* the same as unvaccinated?
They provide exactly same risk to rest of society.


----------



## Mukhang pera




----------



## sags

Once again Damian poses a question based on the false assumption that people who have been vaccinated twice won't get a third shot.

If the virus ever mutates into a deadlier strain, the unvaccinated will provide some inviting hosts for it.

Maybe we could send all the infected un-vaccinated to a nice tropical island in the Pacific Ocean.

Say.......Bikini Atoll.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Once again Damian poses a question based on the false assumption that people who have been vaccinated twice won't get a third shot.
> 
> If the virus ever mutates into a deadlier strain, the unvaccinated will provide some nice hosts for it. Maybe we could send all the vaccinated to an island in the Pacific.
> 
> Say.......Bikini Atoll.


No, I am not. There are no assumptions. Just science.
I believe most people who got 2nd shot will get 3rd. Whether they do or not is irrelevant to the question.

The question is very clear, and I bolded the part that addresses your concern:

Assuming that there is no neutralizing ability of 2nd dose after 5 months.
Do you treat *people vaccinated 5 months ago the same as unvaccinated?*
They provide exactly same risk to rest of society.

Once the bolded part disappears then science shows that for one month they are 33% less likely to get infected so the question doesn't apply to them. (no data yet for months 2, 3, and 4)


----------



## OptsyEagle

damian13ster said:


> Yet you have no right to have your friend lose their jobs, societal privileges, freedom of movement, just because he didn't do what you wanted him to do.
> Imagine that........
> 
> And you still didn't answer same question that sags and other segregationists are refusing to answer for some reason:
> 
> Assuming that there is no neutralizing ability of 2nd dose after 5 months.
> Do you treat *people vaccinated 5 months ago* the same as unvaccinated?
> They provide exactly same risk to rest of society.


I didn't answer your question because it is not relevant to my point. I already said that this so called science you keep anchoring on is so debatable that most are pretty much tired of seeing it. By now anyone can find "science" to justify any point they want to make.

The point I am making has nothing to do with science. To think that the unvaccinated can let us all down like they did and expect no repercussions from it was totally naïve. I think they got off easy. As I said, this will pass, but they should remember for the next time, that when asked to do something as simple but as important to society as vaccination, perhaps they should step up and help out.


----------



## damian13ster

OptsyEagle said:


> I didn't answer your question because it is not relevant to my point. I already said that this so called science you keep anchoring on is so debatable that most are pretty much tired of seeing it. By now anyone can find "science" to justify any point they want to make.
> 
> The point I am making has nothing to do with science. To think that the unvaccinated can let us all down like they did and expect no repercussions from it was totally naïve. I think they got off easy. As I said, this will pass, but they should remember for the next time, that when asked to do something as simple but as important to society as vaccination, perhaps they should step up and help out.


Your point is that human rights abuse is justified because majority wants it.
So why did we have Nuremberg trials in the first place?

They didn't let you down. You blamed them based on your mis-perception of reality for all the problems you have created, and want to break their rights as a punishment.
Literally the same as every single genocidal society did in the past and will do in the future. Create perception that minority is to blame for all the problems.

Glad that you acknowledge though that segregation and discrimination has nothing to do with science, and everything to do with majority wanting a scapegoat.
Kind of sad that you don't see that as evil, but it is what it is.


----------



## sags

You are wasting your time defending rights the unvaxxed don't have.

You would make a lousy criminal defense lawyer.

But your honour.......

The accused has the absolute right to have matches, oily rags, gasoline and can light a camp fire.......so it isn't his fault the building burned down.


----------



## MK7GTI

sags said:


> Once again Damian poses a question based on the false assumption that people who have been vaccinated twice won't get a third shot.
> 
> If the virus ever mutates into a deadlier strain, the unvaccinated will provide some inviting hosts for it.
> 
> Maybe we could send all the infected un-vaccinated to a nice tropical island in the Pacific Ocean.
> 
> Say.......Bikini Atoll.


I know many people who considered ‘fully vaccinated’ but won’t get a third shot. Myself included. He is correct in asking do you consider people who are currently ‘fully vaccinated’ as unvaccinated after 6 months of their second dose? That’s where things get very messy, very quickly. This is where I believe the vaccination policies and mandates will eventually fall apart and go away. You can’t monitor that forever. Eventually it just becomes the regular flu shot. 

People need to stand up against this nonsense and move on.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> You are wasting your time defending rights the unvaxxed don't have.
> 
> You would make a lousy criminal defense lawyer.
> 
> But your honour.......
> 
> The accused has the absolute right to have matches, oily rags, gasoline and can light a camp fire.......so it isn't his fault the building burned down.


Assuming that there is no neutralizing ability of 2nd dose after 5 months.
Do you treat *people vaccinated 5 months ago the same as unvaccinated?*
They provide exactly same risk to rest of society.


----------



## sags

Damian13ster reminds me of a record that keeps skipping.....

There is a house in New Orleans they call the.....there is a house in New Orleans they call the.....there is a house in New Orleans they call the......


----------



## damian13ster

__





Blood clot rates after J&J vaccine higher than previous estimates: CDC advisers


The rate of blood clots following Johnson & Johnson’s COVID-19 vaccine appears to be higher than previously estimated, a subcommittee of the Centers for…




financialpost.com


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Correction above. They did have the right to say no but they also had an obligation to society to say yes. That is the point.


And society has an obligation to respect their human rights, which they are not fufilling. That's the point.
Both sides are breaking their "social contract".

I think the antivaxxers, are in general, doing the wrong thing. However I respect their right to do so, because unlike most, I believe in human rights first.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

In a report released on Friday, the organisation (WHO) said that of the 38 countries touched by the variant, none have reported Omicron-specific deaths.

What a deadly variant. Lol.


----------



## sags

Today is Thursday, so what Friday press release is Ukrainiandude talking about ?


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blood clot rates after J&J vaccine higher than previous estimates: CDC advisers
> 
> 
> The rate of blood clots following Johnson & Johnson’s COVID-19 vaccine appears to be higher than previously estimated, a subcommittee of the Centers for…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> financialpost.com


These blood clots are a serious side effect. Plenty of them have been seen in Canada too (with AstraZeneca).

Anyone who received AZ as their earlier shot(s) should probably get an MRNA shot for their booster, as it has far lower rates of serious side effects.

Warning, there are graphic images in the story below



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vitt-vaccine-exemption-1.6286928


----------



## KaeJS

james4beach said:


> These blood clots are a serious side effect. Plenty of them have been seen in Canada too (with AstraZeneca).
> 
> Anyone who received AZ as their earlier shot(s) should probably get an MRNA shot for their booster, as it has far lower rates of serious side effects.
> 
> Warning, there are graphic images in the story below
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vitt-vaccine-exemption-1.6286928


That's just beyond sad.


----------



## james4beach

KaeJS said:


> That's just beyond sad.


Yeah the only part of the covid response I think Canada screwed up was adopting the AZ vaccines, and continuing with them even as the severe side effects (and deaths) started. Europe had already discontinued them while Canada continued.

I was posting on here back then, saying they are too dangerous for younger people to take... the rate of severe side effects was simply too high. Thankfully we have MRNA vaccines and both Pfizer and Moderna appear to be very safe.

I think I convinced a couple of my friends to not rush into the AZ shot and wait instead for the MRNA ones.


----------



## damian13ster

Moderna use has been discouraged for young people too in multiple countries.
Simply because it has higher dose than Pfizer and higher cases of heart problems among young people.

That's the problem with products that aren't far enough in testing to know what side effects are, or even how many doses it takes and for how long it provides protection.


----------



## KaeJS

The thing people still don't listen to me about is...

When you take a vaccine, you are voluntarily entering into an irreversible action.

When you do not take one, you are removing a whole set of data points and possibilities.

Not taking a vaccine guarantees you that you will not have side effects. Taking a vaccine does not guarantee that you won't contract COVID, nor does it guarantee that you won't die.

So why risk it...
Especially when we know the death toll is so low, and almost non existent for younger people.


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> Simply because it has higher dose than Pfizer and higher cases of heart problems among young people.


True, but only for people in their early 20s. Not exactly heart problems. It was inflammation of the heart, which isn't terribly serious and does normalize with time.

I'm not aware of any problems with Moderna for people over age 25


----------



## AltaRed

Ukrainiandude said:


> In a report released on Friday, the organisation (WHO) said that of the 38 countries touched by the variant, none have reported Omicron-specific deaths.
> 
> What a deadly variant. Lol.


I think it is too early to say. There is quite a lag between infection and death. Statistically some deaths will have to occur. It is a matter of whether the percentage is low enough to not matter that much. 

The bigger issue is the potential overloading of hospital beds and ICUs again, and further postponement of other surgeries already backlogged (and those patients dying) It is a bit crass to be so cavalier about it I think.


----------



## OptsyEagle

As I have explained before when a variant becomes more infectious it cannot help but produce more benign infections as a percentage of all infections it produce. So on average it becomes less severe but that is solely due to the more numerous infections that can now happen, from a more infectious variant, that are further away from the source of infection, then what could be produced before with a less infectious variant. This phenomenon tends to be more prevalent in warmer weather since in an enclosed space, the amount of area further away from the infected source is not limited by walls and does not allow the virus to concentrate. In the enclosed environments (indoors) one would expect many more severe infections coming from a more infectious variant.

The fact that we have not seen many of these severe infections leads me to believe that this Omicron variant has mutated both to become more infectious but also less destructive to the human body. That would be a win win. Not only would be have a coronavirus that either does not kill humans or kills a lot less of them, but it will still transmit so as to inoculate those last vaccination holdouts, giving them some level of protection for when this virus might mutate to a more deadly version of itself.

Right now it is a little early. It is a lot warmer in South Africa now then it is here. Perhaps we will get a different experience from Omicron then SA did.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Today is Thursday, so what Friday press release is Ukrainiandude talking about ?


 ... the Fridays from many moons ago. You see, Ukrainiandude is a time traveller who can bounces back and forth through his digital channel(s) to anytime he wants.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I thought I would add this study as a separate post that falls in line with the concepts I was just talking about above.

Some researchers in Hong Kong found some interesting observations pertaining to this Omicron virus that we should at least be taking note of:









HKUMed finds Omicron SARS-CoV-2 can infect faster and better than Delta in human bronchus but with less severe infection in lung


A study led by researchers from HKUMed provides the first information on how the novel Variant of Concern of SARS-CoV-2, the Omicron SARS-CoV-2, infect human respiratory tract.




www.med.hku.hk







> A study led by researchers from the LKS Faculty of Medicine at The University of Hong Kong (HKUMed) provides the first information on how the novel Variant of Concern (VOC) of SARS-CoV-2, the Omicron SARS-CoV-2 infect human respiratory tract. The researchers found that Omicron SARS-CoV-2 infects and multiplies 70 times faster than the Delta variant and original SARS-CoV-2 in human bronchus, which may explain why Omicron may transmit faster between humans than previous variants. Their study also showed that the Omicron infection in the lung is significantly lower than the original SARS-CoV-2, which may be an indicator of lower disease severity. This research is currently under peer review for publication.


So it sounds like what they are seeing is the Omicron multiplying itself faster inside the bronchial tracks then the other variants did. This would mean that it would require a much smaller dose to provide an equivalent infection, making it significantly easier to obtain an infection AND by reproducing more virus quicker in those breathing tracks, much easier to transmit the virus to others. They then go on to say that it seems to reproduce slower inside the lungs, then previous variants did, perhaps explaining why it appears to be less severe.

If this is true we really couldn't engineer a better mutation to end this pandemic then that.


----------



## Beaver101

AltaRed said:


> I think it is too early to say. There is quite a lag between infection and death. Statistically some deaths will have to occur. It is a matter of whether the percentage is low enough to not matter that much.
> 
> The bigger issue is the potential overloading of hospital beds and ICUs again, and further postponement of other surgeries already backlogged (and those patients dying) It is a bit crass to be so cavalier about it I think.


 ... he's not being cavalier.

He's in the true belief that the pandemic doesn't exist, the Covid virus is harmless period (or whatever variant) 'cause his 90 something year old grandpa didn't even die from getting a flu in the Ukraine without ANY shots or vaccination. So what's the chance of him or any other young person, let alone an older person die from this make-belief virus. OKAY. The smoking meds are working for him in the basement.

Oh, almost forgot this one you missed - he needs to prove to the world on his theory that thinning out the "sheep (ie. the vaxxeds) population is a good thing (provided the the pandemic does exists.) And that only the wolves (anti-vaxxers and their wannabees) population should survive on this planet.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> I thought I would add this study as a separate post that falls in line with the concepts I was just talking about above.
> 
> Some researchers in Hong Kong found some interesting observations pertaining to this Omicron virus that we should at least be taking note of:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HKUMed finds Omicron SARS-CoV-2 can infect faster and better than Delta in human bronchus but with less severe infection in lung
> 
> 
> A study led by researchers from HKUMed provides the first information on how the novel Variant of Concern of SARS-CoV-2, the Omicron SARS-CoV-2, infect human respiratory tract.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.med.hku.hk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So it sounds like what they are seeing is the Omicron multiplying itself faster inside the bronchial tracks then the other variants did. This would mean that it would require a much smaller dose to provide an equivalent infection, making it significantly easier to obtain an infection AND by reproducing more virus quicker in those breathing tracks, much easier to transmit the virus to others. They then go on to say that it seems to reproduce slower inside the lungs, then previous variants did, perhaps explaining why it appears to be less severe.
> 
> *If this is true we really couldn't engineer a better mutation to end this pandemic then that.*


 ... and so, what's the remedy? The vaxxeds should be hiding in their foxholes and let the unvaxxeds and their wannabees rule the world and run amok?


----------



## OptsyEagle

Beaver101 said:


> ... and so, what's the remedy? The vaxxeds should be hiding in their foxholes and let the unvaxxeds and their wannabees rule the world and run amok?


As I said in my post, the reason this is so positive is that it allows the virus to take control of the inoculation program. Obviously humanity cannot come together on this and it appears our only hope is to pass these vaccination decisions to something that does not waste the time to discuss it with us or ask what each of us would prefer.

Works for me.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> True, but only for people in their early 20s. Not exactly heart problems. It was inflammation of the heart, which isn't terribly serious and does normalize with time.
> 
> I'm not aware of any problems with Moderna for people over age 25


"only people in their 20's"...yeah, screw them they don't count.

In addition to heart inflammation there is also myocarditis which has a 25% - 56% fatality rate within 5 - 10 years. It's very serious.

New York schools are now hiring heart specialists just as they are preparing to give shots to kids. That tells me that they know the side effects are serious. I guess it doesn't matter to them how many kids have to die.


----------



## AltaRed

Beaver101 said:


> ... he's not being cavalier.
> 
> He's in the true belief that the pandemic doesn't exist, the Covid virus is harmless period (or whatever variant) 'cause his 90 something year old grandpa didn't even die from getting a flu in the Ukraine without ANY shots or vaccination. So what's the chance of him or any other young person, let alone an older person die from this make-belief virus. OKAY. The smoking meds are working for him in the basement.
> 
> Oh, almost forgot this one you missed - he needs to prove to the world on his theory that thinning out the "sheep (ie. the vaxxeds) population is a good thing (provided the the pandemic does exists.) And that only the wolves (anti-vaxxers and their wannabees) population should survive on this planet.


I guess I have not been following this subject on CMF well enough to understand we have "one of them" in our midst. Forgive me for reading his posts. I will undertake to do better.


----------



## Beaver101

AltaRed said:


> I guess I have not been following this subject on CMF well enough to understand we have "one of them" in our midst. Forgive me for reading his posts. I will undertake to do better.


 ... no problem. Good idea not to follow this subject here as it's draining to respond to "one of these" with their pages and pages of spins and then whinings.

However, (thank lord), there're only a handful of them. But it also appears their numbers are creeping up (albeit not as fast as the virus itself) - so we can/need to keep them in check.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Although it can be a little frustrating seeing so many diverse opinions, all backing themselves up with whatever stat or study they can easily find that supports their personal theories, but I don't think it is a useless exercise. It identifies a big problem, one that science obviously is not going to solve or at least not solve easily.

If I did not see this problem with my own eyes, unfolding over the course of 10 to 20 posts, by 5 or 10 different posters, on just about every day for the last 6 months, I never would have believed it. It kind of makes me want to watch it more. I can't help but ask how right can a wrong person be? It is amazing to see. I actually want to know the answer but so far I am left in complete suspense. A lot of these wrong theories have some incredible data and studies to back them up. It is taking more and more effort to dispute them.

It certainly makes for some interesting entertainment anyway. Probably better to just read then participate but sometimes it is hard to resist. lol


----------



## sags

HappilyRetired said:


> "only people in their 20's"...yeah, screw them they don't count.
> 
> In addition to heart inflammation there is also myocarditis which has a 25% - 56% fatality rate within 5 - 10 years. It's very serious.
> 
> New York schools are now hiring heart specialists just as they are preparing to give shots to kids. That tells me that they know the side effects are serious. I guess it doesn't matter to them how many kids have to die.


Provide a link to data showing myocarditis has a 25-50% fatality rate.

Everything I read says it is inflammation of the outer muscle of the heart and easily treated by Advil or Motren.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> Provide a link to data showing myocarditis has a 25-50% fatality rate.
> 
> Everything I read says it is inflammation of the outer muscle of the heart and easily treated by Advil or Motren.


"The early mortality of fulminant lymphocytic myocarditis requiring intensive care is in excess of 40% in the first 4 weeks"
"Non-fulminant active myocarditis has a mortality rate of 25% to 56% within 3 to 10 years"

Myocarditis (nih.gov)


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Beaver101 said:


> ... he's not being cavalier.
> 
> He's in the true belief that the pandemic doesn't exist, the Covid virus is harmless period (or whatever variant) 'cause his 90 something year old grandpa didn't even die from getting a flu in the Ukraine without ANY shots or vaccination. So what's the chance of him or any other young person, let alone an older person die from this make-belief virus. OKAY. The smoking meds are working for him in the basement.
> 
> Oh, almost forgot this one you missed - he needs to prove to the world on his theory that thinning out the "sheep (ie. the vaxxeds) population is a good thing (provided the the pandemic does exists.) And that only the wolves (anti-vaxxers and their wannabees) population should survive on this planet.


Am I being trolled by the elderly spinster again? Please get a life.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Am I being trolled by the elderly spinster again? Please get a life.


 ... wrong on all accounts. I'm not a member of the Troll-R-Us bin, you are. And time for you to get a real life by stop smoking your meds down in the basement with eye-balls fused to the alt-right channel.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

AltaRed said:


> I think it is too early to say.


The first case of Omicron was announced on 24 November by South Africa, with the first positive sample dating back to 9 November.

There was over a month. Variant either deadly or it isn’t. Media and government are trying to make a deal out of it.


----------



## AltaRed

You are jumping to conclusions. It is too early to say.








No evidence that Covid omicron variant is less severe than delta, UK study says


The study estimates that the risk of reinfection with the omicron variant is 5.4 times greater than that of the delta variant.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## HappilyRetired

Ukrainiandude said:


> View attachment 22499


I stand by a previous comment that some people are very upset that Omicron might be weak and have a 0% or very near 0% fatality rate.


----------



## MrMatt

AltaRed said:


> You are jumping to conclusions. It is too early to say.


Not quite, preliminary data suggests that it is WAY more contagious, and is quickly going to be the dominant variant.
But hospitalizations haven't increase proportionally to cases, suggesting that so far the cases are less severe.

Take the UK, likely a Omicron hotspot.

New cases increasing, hospitalizations and deaths are not substantially increasing.


https://ourworldindata.org/local-covid-uk




https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/uk-daily-covid-admissions




I'm not saying it isn't an issue, but it doesn't' follow the same profile as previous waves, maybe the variant is less severe, maybe vaccines are helping a lot. But it seems to be less of a problem.


----------



## Beaver101

Pfizer says pandemic could extend until 2024 as vaccine data for children aged 2-4 is delayed

Looks like Ukrainiandude's wish to jab toddlers is going to come true ... only problem not until next year at earliest pending approval. And then the pandemic ain't gonna to end next year either.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Not quite, preliminary data suggests that it is WAY more contagious, and is quickly going to be the dominant variant.
> But hospitalizations haven't increase proportionally to cases, suggesting that so far the cases are less severe.
> 
> Take the UK, likely a Omicron hotspot.
> 
> New cases increasing, hospitalizations and deaths are not substantially increasing.
> 
> 
> https://ourworldindata.org/local-covid-uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/uk-daily-covid-admissions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying it isn't an issue, but it doesn't' follow the same profile as previous waves, maybe the variant is less severe, maybe vaccines are helping a lot*. But it seems to be less of a problem.*


... not according to this article (Dec.17,2021 12:38 pm Reuters):

Omicron more likely to reinfect than Delta, no milder -study



> ... "_*We find no evidence (for both risk of hospitalisation attendance and symptom status) of Omicron having different severity from Delta*," the study said, although it added that data on hospitalisations remains very limited. .._.


 ... still too early to conclude it's "less of a problem." 

The speedy (re)-infection rate of Omicron is already a Big problem and a good possibility of evading immunity for the host which'll be an even BIGGER problem.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

If there was a death among those patients we would have known by now.
JOHANNESBURG, Nov 28 (Reuters) - A South African doctor who was one of the first to suspect a different coronavirus strain among patients said on Sunday that symptoms of the Omicron variant were so far mild and could be treated at home.

On the same day, more patients came in with similar symptoms, which was when she realised there was "something else going on." Since then, she's seen two to three patients a day.
We have seen a lot of Delta patients during the third wave. And this doesn't fit in the clinical picture," she said, adding she alerted NICD on the same day with the clinical results.

"Most of them are seeing very, very mild symptoms and none of them so far have admitted patients to surgeries. We have been able to treat these patients conservatively at home," she said.

Coetzee, who is also on the Ministerial Advisory Committee on Vaccines, said unlike the Delta so far patients have not reported loss of smell or taste and there has been no major drop in oxygen levels with the new variant.

Her experience so far has been that the variant is affecting people who are 40 or younger. Almost half of the patients with Omicron symptoms that she treated were not vaccinated.

"The most predominant clinical complaint is severe fatigue for one or two days. With them, the headache and the body aches and pain."


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... still too early to conclude it's "less of a problem."


Currently in Canada, it's been spreading among the younger population, since this group socializes more. For example, Kingston with the universities and Canadian Forces. BC just gave an update and said omicron is currently among cases in their 20s and 30s. None of them have been hospitalized.

_But that age group tends to have mild covid anyway_. As it spreads, it will soon start infecting other age groups, and that's when things get worrying.


----------



## Beaver101

^ That article was from November 28 (some 3 weeks ago) and already it stated:



> ..._ Her experience so far has been that the variant is affecting people who are 40 or younger. Almost half of the patients with Omicron symptoms that she treated were not vaccinated.
> 
> "The most predominant clinical complaint is severe fatigue for one or two days. With them, the headache and the body aches and pain."_


 ... are you not concerned as a "youngster" and having to "work" for a living, if not dying (yet)?


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Currently in Canada, it's been spreading among the younger population, since this group socializes more. For example, Kingston with the universities and Canadian Forces. BC just gave an update and said omicron is currently among cases in their 20s and 30s. *None of them have been hospitalized.*
> 
> _But that age group tends to have mild covid anyway_. As it spreads, it will soon start infecting other age groups, and that's when things get worrying.


 ... not yet on hospitalizations and then this age group doesn't give a sh1t about every other age groups either.


----------



## sags

HappilyRetired said:


> "The early mortality of fulminant lymphocytic myocarditis requiring intensive care is in excess of 40% in the first 4 weeks"
> "Non-fulminant active myocarditis has a mortality rate of 25% to 56% within 3 to 10 years"
> 
> Myocarditis (nih.gov)


The article confirms the opposite of what you suggest.

It shows a person with a deficit immune system that cannot fight the virus can develop severe myocarditis.

The vaccine shot causes minor inflammation, but boosts the immune system to prevent severe myocarditis.

If you want the severe form of inflammation....don't get vaccinated and then get covid.

Covid is not just a respiratory disease. It also causes inflammation in vital organs and nerve pathways that can cause severe sickness and death.


----------



## damian13ster

Canadian media are actually actively looking for anyone who had ANY symptoms from Omicron.









Tested positive for COVID-19 this month? Tell us about your symptoms


Were you or anyone you know diagnosed with COVID-19 in December? If so, there is a chance you may have contracted the new Omicron variant. CTVNews.ca wants to hear from you.




www.ctvnews.ca




When you need nation-wide media alert to find sick people, it is hardly a reason to lock down the country again


----------



## james4beach

Bonnie Henry (BC) just said in her update that currently the largest new infections are being found in university-linked parties and house parties among younger adults. This is where people are drinking, talking loudly and yelling in very dense places.

I keep saying this... people don't catch covid when doing routine shopping at stores. Just wear a mask and keep a safe distance from people. This is not where transmission happens.

*The transmission happens in house parties and large gatherings. Indoor places where you don't have a mask. More drinking / talking / yelling means more transmission.*

You don't have to be afraid of everything. I go out shopping every day. What you need to avoid are large indoor gatherings.


----------



## Beaver101

^ And then you have poster(s) like the one above you named damian13ster screaming "what?! another #%@*^! lockdown on the country" ... with "restrictions only" that's gonna to take place starting on Sunday in "Ontario".

I wonder when is Alberta/Saskatchewan/Manitoba going to reciprocate with sending their ICU patients when Ontario's hospitals becomes overflowed?


----------



## AltaRed

MrMatt said:


> Not quite, preliminary data suggests that it is WAY more contagious, and is quickly going to be the dominant variant.
> But hospitalizations haven't increase proportionally to cases, suggesting that so far the cases are less severe.
> 
> Take the UK, likely a Omicron hotspot.
> 
> New cases increasing, hospitalizations and deaths are not substantially increasing.
> 
> 
> https://ourworldindata.org/local-covid-uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/uk-daily-covid-admissions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying it isn't an issue, but it doesn't' follow the same profile as previous waves, maybe the variant is less severe, maybe vaccines are helping a lot. But it seems to be less of a problem.


We know it is way more infectious but I'd say it is too early to say just what the resultant hospitalizations will be. I would say "New cases increasing, hospitalizations and deaths are not substantially increasing *YET*" The Reuter's quote in post #5776 lays it out nicely.....

If it turns out, for example, that 10 times as many people get infected but hospitalizations eventually are only 20% of infections, then it still means hospitalizations double. Simple math.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

AltaRed said:


> that 10 times as many people get infected but hospitalizations eventually are only 20% of infections


There’s no enough unvaccinated people in the country for this. All vaccinated are double and some tripled protected by one year old vaccine.


----------



## AltaRed

Ukrainiandude said:


> There’s no enough unvaccinated people in the country for this. All vaccinated are double and some tripled protected by one year old vaccine.


That was an example for the purposes of illustrating the math. I could have used 10 toads crossing the road instead.


----------



## Eder

So far hospitalization rates of Omicron is under 2%...early days


----------



## AltaRed

The Economist has a very thorough (Dec 18th edition) examination of the situation as it stands today. It concludes it is very early days to be making any assumptions.


----------



## damian13ster

Eder said:


> So far hospitalization rates of Omicron is under 2%...early days


That seems way to high.
Even Delta was below 2%.

That's the biggest misconception people have. There were polls out there showing significant portion of population overestimated risk by a factor of 20


----------



## MrMatt

AltaRed said:


> We know it is way more infectious but I'd say it is too early to say just what the resultant hospitalizations will be. I would say "New cases increasing, hospitalizations and deaths are not substantially increasing *YET*" The Reuter's quote in post #5776 lays it out nicely.....
> 
> If it turns out, for example, that 10 times as many people get infected but hospitalizations eventually are only 20% of infections, then it still means hospitalizations double. Simple math.


Which means this time we'll have to use those tents and field hospitals we set up back in 2020.
Plus we actually have a slew of treatments, and the numbers aren't looking anywhere near that high.

I'm just annoyed because I was calling for booster shots months ago..... now we've got shortages again (specifically shortage of injection capacity)

This was known and expected, but they wait until now, a week before Christmas gatherings to get serious about booster shots. It's pathetic that our "experts" are so slow.


----------



## AltaRed

I don't know if we should blame the officials or not. The prevailing thought pretty much everywhere was to give 3rd shots 6 months after the last (2nd shot). Spouse and I had our 3rd shots 6 months after our 2nd shot.

I think that would have all worked well had Omicron not reared its head so quickly and with so much transmissibility. Now it is panic time. Hindsight is 20-20.

Based on The Economist article I mentioned, I think the world is 2-4 weeks away from understanding the rate of hospitalization, what demographics and under what conditions might be dominant in hospitalizations, etc, etc. A Denmark study, not peer reviewed yet, is suggesting hospitalization patterns similar to Delta... while others are suggesting much lower. Maybe it is demographics, geography or density of population. Who knows at this point?


----------



## damian13ster

Study in july came out showing effectiveness drops off the cliff after 3 months. It isn't new knowledge. It was simply ignored. 
Don't really understand why either. 
If people want to get a jab every morning before breakfast - so be it. Let them do that. 
If they don't want to - so be it, let them do that.

Governments withholding the jabs for >6 months while it is known effectiveness falls off the cliff after 3 made no sense.


----------



## Eder

Thread by @GuptaR_lab on Thread Reader App


@GuptaR_lab: Sharing some potentially significant findings relating to Omicron given the current situation. First of all huge thanks to the team working flat out- Bo Meng, @isabella_atmf and to our collaborators bot...…




threadreaderapp.com





Some Omicron recent research by Ravi Gupta ...Professor of Clinical Microbiology Department of Medicine University of Cambridge


----------



## sags

So.......the Omicron is more infectious, but doesn't invade the lungs as much ?

I think they already knew that, but it is nice to get more confirmation. If the Omicron causes milder disease we might get through this soon.

But.....the Delta is still spreading rapidly and is still the dominant variant that is sending a lot of people to the hospitals and ICU.

Then the question would be........does recovery from the Omicron variant provide immunity protection from the Delta...or vice versa, or are we going to go round and round and round with different variations of the same virus.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Governments withholding the jabs for >6 months while it is known effectiveness falls off the cliff after 3 made no sense.


Governments withholding millions of doses, while vaccinations sat idle, until December, when we're facing another wave.

Our vaccination clinics are overwhelmed (again), which could have been greatly alleviated by providing boosters in November.


----------



## kcowan2000

In November, we clearl


MrMatt said:


> Governments withholding millions of doses, while vaccinations sat idle, until December, when we're facing another wave.
> 
> Our vaccination clinics are overwhelmed (again), which could have been greatly alleviated by providing boosters in November.


In early November, we did not qualify for our booster, but the nice lady said to fill out the form anyway. Next day she scheduled our shots for next day. We were supposed to qualify in January but left for Mexico November 17th.


----------



## Eder

Heres the official symptoms of Omicron as of Dec 16th.

*Runny nose.*
*Headache.*
*Fatigue (either mild or severe).*
*Sneezing.*
*Sore throat.*
Fever,coughing & loss of smell is in the minority. No mention of difficulty breathing.

Sounds familiar to me....


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Vaccine no vaccine, all going to get it. Omicron is being compared to measles in contagiousness.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Posters 5798 & 5799 are medical experts and absolute geniuses ... like Delta has disappeared .... might as well stick with the con-theory "what pandemic?". Or more like "what is a pandemic?". Duh.


----------



## sags

Selfpity.com (Self Pity.com) is available for sale. 





__





selfpity.com - This website is for sale! - selfpity,dating Resources and Information.


This website is for sale! selfpity.com is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, selfpity.com has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for!




selfpity.com


----------



## Eder

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Posters 5798 & 5799 are medical experts and absolute geniuses ... like Delta has disappeared .... might as well stick with the con-theory "what pandemic?". Or more like "what is a pandemic?". Duh.


70% of new cases in the USA are Omicron already. No need to be a genius.


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> 70% of new cases in the USA are Omicron already. No need to be a genius.


 ...and soon 99% of the world cases will be Omicron. Plus FEE.org still enrolling members for its classes.


----------



## Ukrainiandude




----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> View attachment 22523


Record high new cases, record low hospitalization since May 2020.
Looks like nearly a best case possible end.

FYI, they also have 25% double vaccination, 30% first dose, so our numbers should be even better.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> FYI, they also have 25% double vaccination, 30% first dose, so our numbers should be even better.


I don’t think vaccines are matter for omicron.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> I don’t think vaccines are matter for omicron.


Latest I heard is that they likely have mid-low effectiveness, depending on a range of factors.
They won't make it worse and will likely make ti slightly better.


----------



## damian13ster

Israel rolling out 4th doses. Guess the third one didn't do the trick.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

damian13ster said:


> Israel rolling out 4th doses. Guess the third one didn't do the trick.


Booster of the booster, that’s the way.


----------



## damian13ster

Anyone aware of the data they had on 3rd doses that made them make decision to go forward with 4th?


----------



## HappilyRetired

damian13ster said:


> Anyone aware of the data they had on 3rd doses that made them make decision to go forward with 4th?


Yes. Pfizer's financial statements.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

VaaS (Vaccine as a Service).


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Make it a mandatory monthly dose from January 2022. Big pharma wouldn’t mind and sheep are ready for it, happily waiting in lines.


----------



## james4beach

All evidence shows that vaccination (whether 2 or 3 shots) helps reduce the severity of illness caused by both delta and omicron. Yes there are breakthrough cases, and people can still catch it, but vaccination reduces how serious the illness becomes.

But beware, if you're in a province with very high prevalence (currently that's Ontario, Quebec and parts of BC) if you are meeting with people indoors you are definitely in danger of coming down with a covid case even if you have 2 or 3 shots.

The smartest thing to do is make sure you have the minimum 2 vaccinations AND of course avoid indoor gatherings, or keep them very small.


----------



## damian13ster

Can you point to the evidence where 2 doses reduce how serious the illness becomes with Omicron? - data, research studies, not words of political appointees.
'No neutralizing ability' doesn't instill much confidence and I haven't seen any data of 2 doses being effective against Omicron - must have missed something.


----------



## Beaver101

^ What do you care about the effectiveness of the vaccines against Omicron or whatever variant ... just stick to your "rights not to vax" SPEWINGS movement. And this response goes to Ukrainiandude too and the designated members of the Troll-R-Us BIN here on CMF.


----------



## OptsyEagle

It is amazing how people seem to want to attack the person when they cannot come up with anything better to say.

I am not a big fan of the human rights movement either but Damian's point about questioning whether the vaccines prevent severe outcomes with Omicron is valid. It appears we are still in the early stages to find that out and if anyone has any of that data I would be very happy to read it.

In either case, whether vaccines are needed for Omicron or not, we do need to remember that Delta has not left our planet. Right now the Omicron infections are just getting added on top of those Delta infections, in such large numbers that it may appear Delta is gone, but it has not. If the person right beside you has a big viral load of Delta I am pretty sure you are going to get it. For how long that phenomenon lasts, I cannot say but I know we are far from out of the woods.


----------



## damian13ster

Delta numbers decreased by over 70% in just one week in US.
It is now gone from South Africa.
That's the beauty of Omicron taking over. They compete on viral level as well and Omicron is kicking Delta's ***.
Same as Delta got rid of Beta, just multiply that by 10-12 since Omicron/Delta difference in multiplication is about that much higher than Delta/Beta (70x original multiplication rate, and delta was 4-5x if memory serves me right, you can look that number up).

Once new variants comes along, the old one disappears in a matter of weeks. You have data for that from recent months with Delta.
This is precisely the reason why the ability of spread of Omicron is amazing news, and why hospitalization and death rate plummet so quickly in every country that Omicron takes over.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> It is amazing how people seem to want to attack the person when they cannot come up with anything better to say.


 .. yeah, it's pretty amazing of you think that calling other people names first, if not insult them isn't an attack. Damian13ster is a pro at this right from the day he joined this forum. Of course, you wouldn't want to admit this yourself since you like to play the flakey "nice" guy whilst trying to be referee which is the typical modus operandus of your previous occupation. Don't forget to get yourself a mirror too and have look when you sent sags an unwarranted insult about him staying in his foxhole. [And don't' tell me it was a joke nor your memory is failing you now. I heard same from jackaxxes like you.]



> I am not a big fan of the human rights movement either but Damian's point about questioning whether the vaccines prevent severe outcomes with Omicron is valid. It appears we are still in the early stages to find that out and if anyone has any of that data I would be very happy to read it.


 ... what validity? He already stated there was only "1" death from Omicron and laughed it off. and now he wants data to see more deaths from Omicron. Are you for real?



> In either case, whether vaccines are needed for Omicron or not we do need to remember that Delta has not left our planet. Right now the Omicron infections are just getting added on top of those Delta infections, in such large numbers that it may appear Delta is gone, but it has not. If the person right beside you has a big viral load of Delta I am pretty sure you are going to get it. For how long that phenomenon lasts, I cannot say but I know we are far from out of the woods.


 ... last people who gives a sh1t are those from the designated Troll-R-Us BIN here on CMF.... do you want to join them?


----------



## HappilyRetired

Here's what happens next:

The combination of a weakening virus and the shot will end the pandemic fairly soon. Biden will get all the credit even though he did nothing and the Canadian media will praise Trudeau for his leadership.

Once the fear lessens and it's no longer front page news we'll start hearing about the side effects from the shot. Then they'll blame Trump for rushing the vaccine.


----------



## Beaver101

^ That would be an ideal scenario ... perhaps in year 2030 or never?


----------



## damian13ster

That's exactly the problem.

From perspective of a politician, no matter how harmful lockdowns are, they are politically good.

Lockdown:

if effective: politician can say it is thanks to him
if not effective: politician can say that if it wasn't for him then it would be worse.

Either way, his *** is covered. And it doesn't matter that Canadians now have most pessimistic outlook about the future in decades, because politician doesn't get blamed for it - and that is all that matters for them.

No lockdown:

if effective: politician can say it is thanks to him
if not effective: politician is screwed.

As people who care about nothing more than power and next elections, the choice is clear.


----------



## Beaver101

^ You can complain with your post above in the "Politics" thread.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> In either case, whether vaccines are needed for Omicron or not, we do need to remember that Delta has not left our planet.


And of course there could be another variant generated I suppose. 

I think we got lucky with this pandemic as it didn't have the mortality that some pandemics have had in history. For older people it has had a mortality of around 1 in 100 (1%) and for those under 65 it's something like 1 in 1000. This has definitely allowed lots of naysayers to poo-poo the whole thing and take ridiculous stands on vaccines. 

If this had been a problem where we had something like a 20%-50% mortality as has happened with plagues in the past, then you'd see every person lined up to get a shot I believe. It's the fact that COVID is right on the edge of being serious, so it allows too much discussion about the vaccines.

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

damian13ster said:


> Delta numbers decreased by over 70% in just one week in US.
> It is now gone from South Africa.
> That's the beauty of Omicron taking over. They compete on viral level as well and Omicron is kicking Delta's ***.
> Same as Delta got rid of Beta, just multiply that by 10-12 since Omicron/Delta difference in multiplication is about that much higher than Delta/Beta (70x original multiplication rate, and delta was 4-5x if memory serves me right, you can look that number up).
> 
> Once new variants comes along, the old one disappears in a matter of weeks. You have data for that from recent months with Delta.
> This is precisely the reason why the ability of spread of Omicron is amazing news, and why hospitalization and death rate plummet so quickly in every country that Omicron takes over.
> 
> View attachment 22527
> 
> 
> View attachment 22528


I am not disagreeing that Delta will go away soon. I am just saying that it is not gone yet.

Also, as I have said before and hope to get the info so I don't need to be saying it blind for much longer, no matter how much data you have seen so far that Omicron is benign, I am not yet convinced. So far most of the information coming out, especially the lack of information, is leading me to that conclusion. This is all making me optimistic but without boring the board with the many things that can cause the bad observations to be delayed on Omicron, I am withholding my final verdict.

Although I don't believe we have data to confirm that our vaccines help with preventing hospitalizations and death yet, with respect to Omicron, we also don't have data saying that they will not help considerably. That is what I am trying to say.


----------



## damian13ster

And this is precisely the moment when COVID turned from scientific to religious phenomena.

'No data to confirm vaccines help with hospitalizations and death' BUT 'You can't prove they don't!'

Fair on withholding the verdict. Every single day, the more data comes, and it is absolutely phenomenal. Shown in COVID thread as it is not related to vaccines, but to COVID strain


----------



## OptsyEagle

In my opinion we are probably in the final game of a 7 game championship. The good guys are playing the bad guys in a covid hockey game. The stakes are high. If the bad guys win and Omicron turns out to be as severe as Delta, or more, and if the vaccines offer no protection or very little protection, it will be a nightmare scenario for our planet and the game is over. Not extinction perhaps but over. Too ugly to describe. If the good guys win and Omicron is benign, so much so that no one needs vaccines anymore at all, the game is over. The good guys win. The pandemic is done.

Right now IMO we are in the 7th game, the bad guys scored the first two goals with that ridiculous infection rate, but with the data coming out and more importantly the lack of bad hospitalization data coming out, it seems to me that the good guys scored back those two goals and probably added a 3rd to take the lead. But in my opinion, we are just starting the 3rd period and the game is not over and the bad guys are still a team to be concerned about.

That is how I see it.


----------



## damian13ster

I think we might disagree on who the bad guys are here......
I like the idea of it being the end, no matter what, but we will agree to disagree here.
The bad guys will not give up the control they took away from people and won't give back the power they assigned themselves, no matter what the score of the game is - they have rigged the game. They have rigged it by converting the pandemic into religion and not science


----------



## sags

The Provincial Premiers are in charge of vaccines, testing and booster shots.

The Federal government has supplied more than enough for the entire population of Canada.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Sorry, I should have added that there will always be many scenarios where the covid championship game can end in a tie. We should all know by now what that means. _ Never ending OVERTIME_. lol.


----------



## damian13ster

Or you can just choose to leave the arena 
The game is long over. It has been since hospitalization rate has turned out to be extremely low, and death rate among young people turned out to be lower than from flu (yes, actual data - compare deaths in youth from 2018/2019 flu season to entire pandemic).
There is not a plausible scenario in which we lose - despite continuing to shoot own goals for some reason.
Some people just choose not to leave the stands and go on with their lives - so be it. Their choice. The only problem is they are chaining down others to their seats


----------



## sags

Ontario and Quebec are experiencing sharp rises in cases and hospitalizations again.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Although I don't believe we have data to confirm that our vaccines help with preventing hospitalizations and death yet, with respect to Omicron, we also don't have data saying that they will not help considerably. That is what I am trying to say.


Yup, too early to tell for omicron but I only look at local covid info now and ignore the rest of the noise. We're pretty low on omicron cases but they are increasing here so time will tell on the hospital impact. For the past few months our ICU cases have been around 90% for unvaccinated so that really tells me what I need to know.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Or you can just choose to leave the arena
> The game is long over. It has been since hospitalization rate has turned out to be extremely low, and death rate among young people turned out to be lower than from flu (yes, actual data - compare deaths in youth from 2018/2019 flu season to entire pandemic).
> There is not a plausible scenario in which we lose - despite continuing to shoot own goals for some reason.
> Some people just choose not to leave the stands and go on with their lives - so be it. Their choice. The only problem is they are chaining down others to their seats


 ... you're free to get off your duffs and inhale whatever variants are out there instead gluing eyes on the monitor and spinning out useless stats on this forum.

Meanwhile our hospitals are getting clogged with the likes of you, holding everyone else hostage with cancelled elective surgeries so the likes of you can be attended with an ending result of 6 feet deep and subsequently taking everyone else with you. And what was the word that you used earlier? Hint:starts with an "m" and ends with a "n".


----------



## sags

The US army has developed a single dose vaccine that will protect against all covid and variants.









Army to announce vaccine that protects from ALL COVID, SARS variants


Walter Reed Army Institute of Research is set to announce a vaccine that effectively protects against all COVID and SARS variants after nearly two years of research.




www.dailymail.co.uk





In other news, Moderna announced they have an Omicron booster shot that raises immunity levels 40X.

Good news coming on the vaccine front.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> The US army has developed a single dose vaccine that will protect against all covid and variants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Army to announce vaccine that protects from ALL COVID, SARS variants
> 
> 
> Walter Reed Army Institute of Research is set to announce a vaccine that effectively protects against all COVID and SARS variants after nearly two years of research.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other news, Moderna announced they have an Omicron booster shot that raises immunity levels 40X.
> 
> Good news coming on the vaccine front.


That is interesting but to point out a flaw, it seems to me that their vaccine protects against all covid and sars variants that exist today. Unless I missed that part I don't believe that it can protect a person from all new mutations in the future.


----------



## damian13ster

And how do they already have a read out from Phase 1 for Omicron? 
First case was identified in US recently, and it was among vaccinated person.
They would need a decent amount of unvaccinated people with Omicron in order to design, recruit, conduct, and get readout validated for Phase 1 trial.


----------



## sags

_The Spike Ferritin Nanoparticle COVID-19 vaccine (SpFN) has so far been *proven to protect against all existing and potential variants of the viruses *_


----------



## Spudd

OptsyEagle said:


> That is interesting but to point out a flaw, it seems to me that their vaccine protects against all covid and sars variants that exist today. Unless I missed that part I don't believe that it can protect a person from all new mutations in the future.


I didn't read Sags' link because I don't like the Daily Mail. I googled and found an article on the same topic on Eurekalert, which says they are developing it to confer broad protection against coronaviruses in general. A quote from the article:


> Scientists in WRAIR’s Emerging Infectious Diseases Branch (EIDB) developed the SpFN nanoparticle vaccine, based on a ferritin platform, as part of a forward-thinking “pan-SARS” strategy that aims to address the current pandemic and acts as a first line of defense against variants of concern and similar viruses that could emerge in the future.


This would be awesome if it turns out to be effective in humans. 









Series of preclinical studies supports the Army’s pan-coronavirus vaccine development strategy


A series of recently published preclinical study results show that the Spike Ferritin Nanoparticle (SpFN) COVID-19 vaccine developed by researchers at the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research (WRAIR) not only elicits a potent immune response but may also provide broad protection against...



www.eurekalert.org


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> And how do they already have a read out from Phase 1 for Omicron?
> First case was identified in US recently, and it was among vaccinated person.
> They would need a decent amount of unvaccinated people with Omicron in order to design, recruit, conduct, and get readout validated for Phase 1 trial.


Phase one trials are safety tests.
Phase two trials are the ones that determine if it works on the condition being treated.


----------



## Beaver101

Spudd said:


> I didn't read Sags' link because I don't like the Daily Mail. I googled and found an article on the same topic on Eurekalert, which says they are developing it to confer broad protection against coronaviruses in general. A quote from the article:
> 
> 
> This would be awesome if it turns out to be effective in humans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Series of preclinical studies supports the Army’s pan-coronavirus vaccine development strategy
> 
> 
> A series of recently published preclinical study results show that the Spike Ferritin Nanoparticle (SpFN) COVID-19 vaccine developed by researchers at the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research (WRAIR) not only elicits a potent immune response but may also provide broad protection against...
> 
> 
> 
> www.eurekalert.org


 ... I can see the anti-vaxxers, their wannbees and their buddy-conspiracy-theorists are going to have a HUGE field day with this kind of development if proven to be effective in humans eventually.


----------



## Eder

OptsyEagle said:


> That is interesting but to point out a flaw, it seems to me that their vaccine protects against all covid and sars variants that exist today. Unless I missed that part I don't believe that it can protect a person from all new mutations in the future.


Maybe we do....








Army to announce vaccine that protects from ALL COVID, SARS variants


Walter Reed Army Institute of Research is set to announce a vaccine that effectively protects against all COVID and SARS variants after nearly two years of research.




www.dailymail.co.uk






Hmm I see perhaps Sags posted perhaps a similar link...I have him on ignore so sorry if my link is a duplicate.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Yup, too early to tell for omicron but I only look at local covid info now and ignore the rest of the noise. We're pretty low on omicron cases but they are increasing here so time will tell on the hospital impact. For the past few months our ICU cases have been around 90% for unvaccinated so that really tells me what I need to know.


Absolutely. Looking locally however, and I use Ontario, this is what I see as of today.

Cases for Dec. 22, 2021 = 4,383
Cases for Fully Vaccinated = 3,243

% of Fully Vaccinated Cases = 74%
% of Fully Vaccinated People = 77%

Are you freaken kidding me. Can you say no vaccine protection at all. We heard that the vaccines do a lot less to prevent infection from Omicron but that is a complete failure. So far this virus is laughing at our current vaccines.

As we have discussed, we don't know what will happen with respect to severe outcomes, but this is what is kind of worrying me right now.

It is like WW1 where you would have 3 defensive trenches to keep the enemy at bay and if the enemy gets past all 3 trenches you are royally scr<wed. With covid our defensive trenches, provided by our vaccines, was protection from infection, protection from severe outcome, and protection from death. That enemy has just blown through the first trench like we completely ran out of ammunition and totally forgot how to fix bayonets.

Hopefully the other 2 defenses hold up a heck of a lot better OR we find out that this particular enemy just wants to come over to our side to give us a big harmless kiss, because if the vaccines end up failing us entirely, AND this variant is angry and dangerous, with a virus as infectious as Omicron, its going to get very ugly very soon...for everyone.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> As we have discussed, we don't know what will happen with respect to severe outcomes, but this is what is kind of worrying me right now.


That's the key point I look at, serious outcomes. Mainly for ICU/deaths with hospitalizations coming in second. If a vaccine keeps me out of the hospital (especially ICU or from dying) I'll take it as a win. Sure it would be great if it stopped initial infections but I definitely don't consider that a total loss like some do.


----------



## Spudd

So far, it looks like the current vaccines are ineffective against catching Omicron (based on Ontario stats) but the hospitalization/ICU stats are still showing a very good benefit to the vaccine. Hopefully that will continue to hold up, since it's still early days on the Omicron front, and as we all know, hospitalizations/ICU are a lagging indicator.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> That's the key point I look at, serious outcomes. Mainly for ICU/deaths with hospitalizations coming in second. If a vaccine keeps me out of the hospital (especially ICU or from dying) I'll take it as a win. Sure it would be great if it stopped initial infections but I definitely don't consider that a total loss like some do.


I am with you on all of that. I am just a little concerned that if this new variant can evade our vaccine immunity so well with infections what can it do to severe outcomes and death.

I am not losing sleep and the initial signs for severe outcomes look good but I am still a little surprised at the reduced efficacy so far. I mean 0% efficacy against infection is quite the reduction. That's all I am saying.


----------



## sags

That is why people need a booster shot. Israel is wise to go with a 4th shot. We need to do that here.

The problem with not keeping up is the vaccines cannot be given together and there is a time lag between doses.

An unvaccinated person today has a long wait for full immunization from 3 shots.


----------



## damian13ster

Meh, by the time they get to 2nd dose, your 3rd dose is likely to be useless and you will be waiting for 4th.
0% protection against infection with Omicron is nothing new - there were research studies that showed that to be the case. No neutralization of the variant at all.
Those who didn't cover their ears and kept their mind open already knew it to be the case.

But hey, let's continue with the human rights abuse.
Maybe objective being stated as 'compliance to minority government' will be enough to justify Section 1 in Canadian legal system.


----------



## damian13ster

From cooler news, University of Minnesota is working, with promising results, on a vaccine against aging.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> I am with you on all of that. I am just a little concerned that if this new variant can evade our vaccine immunity so well with infections what can it do to severe outcomes and death.
> 
> I am not losing sleep and the initial signs for severe outcomes look good but I am still a little surprised at the reduced efficacy so far. I mean 0% efficacy against infection is quite the reduction. That's all I am saying.


Yup, I'm certainly not losing sleep either and we'll no doubt find out in the weeks ahead with all the holiday activity. Once it becomes clear I'll adapt to the new situation.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> That is why people need a booster shot. Israel is wise to go with a 4th shot. We need to do that here.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

We are back to square one. Governments and sheep got fooled by big pharma on vaccines efficiency. Billions of printed dollars wasted on experimental vaccines without any improvements on the pandemic or restrictions. Masks are the only effective mean to control covid. 
*COVID-19: Manitoba to distribute free KN95 masks at liquor stores, casinos* 








COVID-19: Manitoba to distribute free KN95 masks at liquor stores, casinos - Winnipeg | Globalnews.ca


Central Services Minister Reg Helwer announced the free masks by tweet Wednesday.




globalnews.ca


----------



## MrMatt

Spudd said:


> So far, it looks like the current vaccines are ineffective against catching Omicron (based on Ontario stats) but the hospitalization/ICU stats are still showing a very good benefit to the vaccine. Hopefully that will continue to hold up, since it's still early days on the Omicron front, and as we all know, hospitalizations/ICU are a lagging indicator.


If by "current vaccines" you mean vaccines that were given months ago and have lost a significant amount of their effectiveness. yes.

That's one of the reasons I was calling to release boosters at 4 or 5 months, or at least get the boosters out before we start vaccinating kids.
Though TBH my primary concern was spread reduction, since Omicron wasn't a factor 2+ months ago. But it still stands, they didn't have a good reason to hold back boosters, and that decision clearly backfired.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Back in the summer, Mr. Dubé issued an *ultimatum* to the province’s 330,000 health care workers: *Get vaccinated* by Oct. 15 (later extended to Nov. 15), or *lose your job*. It was a perfectly reasonable demand. You have to prove you’re vaccinated to visit a patient in hospital; shouldn’t you have to be vaccinated to work there? The question is an ethical and scientific no-brainer.

On Wednesday, Quebec Health Minister Christian Dubé announced he was dropping his long-standing plan to force health care workers to get vaccinated against COVID-19, or be fired. Also on Wednesday, Ontario Premier Doug Ford’s government declined to introduce a similar provincewide plan.

Hospital capacity in the province is about a third of what it was at the beginning of the pandemic and before the fall, due to *severe staff shortages*, according to the provincial Health Ministry.

Nearly 5,200 health workers are currently off the job due to COVID infections. Thousands more are on leave or have left altogether, exhausted by the pandemic's toll.

so much government bluffing you can find only in Canada. We will fire you, or wait we need you, apparently there is staff shortage. That’s ok if you are not vaccinated, we will forget and forgive you. 😜


----------



## Eder

I know several health care workers that quit due to the vaccine requirements. Elect clowns we end up with a clown show.


----------



## damian13ster

Good for the healthcare workers not to report their vaccination status (even if fully vaccinated).
The only way to stop human rights abusers is to stand up to human rights violations, even if you personally are not affected by it.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

The Omicron variant of Covid-19 is the second most contagious disease on the planet, behind measles, according to a Cleveland infection control doctor.
plus
*The wave of Omicron appears to be milder according to preliminary studies published in the UK and South Africa.*
Early evidence suggests fewer people are needing hospital treatment than with other variants - with estimates ranging from a 30% to a 70% reduction.
It showed people were 70-80% less likely to need hospital treatment, depending on whether Omicron is compared to previous waves, or other variants currently circulating.

congratulations
this pandemic is over. Pfizer and Moderna can close the shop. 
the end


----------



## diharv

But Trudeau says we need to prevent Omicron from overwhelming the healthcare system. I guess they are choosing to ignore the data out of South Africa. And if you're a family of seven in Quebec, cancel Christmas.


----------



## moderator2

Ukrainiandude said:


> Governments and sheep got fooled by big pharma on vaccines efficiency. Billions of printed dollars wasted on experimental vaccines without any improvements on the pandemic or restrictions. Masks are the only effective mean to control covid.


There's a lot of questionable info and misinformation sprinkled among your posts. As this is a serious topic concerning public health, I'm going to ask you to tone this down, or you will be given a temporary ban.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> Back in the summer, Mr. Dubé issued an *ultimatum* to the province’s 330,000 health care workers: *Get vaccinated* by Oct. 15 (later extended to Nov. 15), or *lose your job*. It was a perfectly reasonable demand.


No, it wasn't reasonable, and definitely not perfectly reasonable.
Force people to submit to medical procedure, or lose your job?
Since the vaccine doesn't even stop the spread of COVID, there isn't even a "greater good" argument.
Forcing people to undergo an unwanted medical intervention "for your own good" is the epitome of authoritarianism. 



> Hospital capacity in the province is about a third of what it was at the beginning of the pandemic and before the fall, due to *severe staff shortages*, according to the provincial Health Ministry.





> That’s ok if you are not vaccinated, we will forget and forgive you. 😜


The management putting out these ridiculous requirements needs the forgiveness, not the workers.


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> I know several health care workers that quit due to the vaccine requirements. Elect clowns we end up with a clown show.


 ... have a look at post #5852 from your buddy Ukrainiandude ... must love his mask-up requirement announcement to affirm your post. LMAO.


----------



## Beaver101

diharv said:


> But Trudeau says we need to prevent Omicron from overwhelming the healthcare system. I guess they are choosing to ignore the data out of South Africa.


 ... at least Health Canada ain't ignoring data from around the world such as Denmark, UK, USA, etc. as if the SA data is so reliant. Perhaps just good enough for conspiracy-theorists and a never-ending crutch for anti-vaxxers and their wannabees.



> And if you're a family of seven in Quebec, cancel Christmas.


 ... so are you? And is Quebec premier gonna to peek into your living-room to see a party of 20 strangers gathering, boozing up for the countdown to the new year? No wonder Quebec cops are so mean these days.


----------



## Eder

You may have to ban most of the posters here as BS is being posted about both points of view about vaccine effectiveness and Omicron potency. In the meantime its enjoyable to read the speculation and its easy to ignore users that seem to trigger others.

As of today in Ontario the 7 day moving average for unvaccinated people getting COVID is 25 out of 100,000 unvaccinated people. It's 22/100,000 "fully" vaccinated people and 21/100,000 "partially vaccinated" people. 





Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> You may have to ban most of the posters here as BS is being posted about both points of view about vaccine effectiveness and Omicron potency. In the meantime its enjoyable to read the speculation and its easy to ignore users that seem to trigger others.
> 
> As of today in Ontario the 7 day moving average for unvaccinated people getting COVID is 25 out of 100,000 unvaccinated people. It's 22/100,000 "fully" vaccinated people and 21/100,000 "partially vaccinated" people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid-19.ontario.ca


I'm not sure it's BS as much as incomplete/limited data.


That data tells an interesting story, firstly it's close to a rounding error in difference.21 vs 22, and 25 isn't much different either.
But I wonder if the "fully" vaccinated people got their second dose so long ago that their protection is waning, while the partially vaccinated might have only gotten in this fall.

I think the term "fully vaccinated" is flawed in this context, I've been vaccinated half a dozen times for tetanus, but I'm still not currently vaccinated, because timing matters.
It's very clear that timing of the COVID19 vaccine also matters.

I don't believe that Tetanus has many variants, I think the vaccine simply "wears off" after time.
Flu it's regular shots because it's different strains.

It looks like COVID is the worst of both, the vaccine fades in effectiveness AND there are new strains.


----------



## Eder

From the looks of the graph it will only be a few days before the vaccinated will be more likely to come down with Covid. Things change quickly.I wonder what the next inevitable variant will bring.


----------



## sags

If 100% of the population was vaccinated......then 100% of the covid cases would be vaccinated people.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> If 100% of the population was vaccinated......then 100% of the covid cases would be vaccinated people.


And your post is completely irrelevant.

The data given was cases/100,000 population.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> If 100% of the population was vaccinated......then 100% of the covid cases would be vaccinated people.


Precisely, but the problem is that it will still be a mind numbing number of cases. That is the issue. The vaccines have very little protection against infection. We now know that. Why they have no protection against infection we still don't know.

They do seem to be doing well in protecting us from severe infection (all variants) so if that is all they will ever it is still highly appreciated by me.


----------



## damian13ster

However, you are as much of a danger to your grandparents, grandchildren, neighbors, community, society, if you are vaccinated as if unvaccinated.
You are only (that's a lot and good reason to be vaccinated, but doesn't justify breaking human rights) protecting yourself


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> However, you are as much of a danger to your grandparents, grandchildren, neighbors, community, society, if you are vaccinated as if unvaccinated.
> You are only (that's a lot and good reason to be vaccinated, but doesn't justify breaking human rights) protecting yourself


You have to understand that most people don't support human rights.

For them, your "human rights" end where their personal sense of entitlement starts.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> However, you are as much of a danger to your grandparents, grandchildren, neighbors, community, society, if you are vaccinated as if unvaccinated.
> You are only (that's a lot and good reason to be vaccinated, but doesn't justify breaking human rights) protecting yourself


 ... the above are the most convoluted statements I have ever heard. 

Isn't your "right" to vaccinate so that you can protect yourself "first", if not others? Or is in your stucked mindset, the right to vax just as the unvaxxed can only harm others?


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> You have to understand that most people don't support human rights.
> 
> For them, your "human rights" end where their personal sense of entitlement starts.


 .. don't disagree with these statements starting with racists but then that's a different topic/thread.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Also, I should add that when a person looks at this change in protection from infection that Omicron is showing for the fully vaccinated, it may give the wrong conclusion to an unvaccinated person seeing it. Remember, previously the vaccines provided pretty good protection against infection for a vaccinated person and more important then the prevention of infection, was the reduced time they carried the infectious virus with them.

Now looking at that an unvaccinated person might want to conclude that with Omicron the vaccine is not as good and therefore they need it even less. Before we decide this we need to first understand who was primarily protected with respect to a reduction in transmission. Since the vaccinated were always and still are very protected from severe outcomes, a reduction in transmission primarily protected the unvaccinated from infection.

It would appear that those days of protection are gone. If an unvaccinated was using the low odds of infection as a primary or secondary reason for not getting vaccinated, they might want to relook at that risk again, now that 77% of population can easily infect them going forward, when they were actually protected by them in the past.

Just something to think about.


----------



## damian13ster

0-20% of protection from infection is 0-20% of protection from infection.
It is not using protection against Delta as a baseline. It is using lack of vaccination as a baseline.

So yes, lower protection is less of a reason to get vaccinated.
I still believe it is better to get vaccinated than not (although won't be getting a booster because of side-effects of 2nd dose), but don't convolute the message and try saying that vaccines being less effective is not a bad thing and that risk/reward equation is not changing (again, i believe it is still favorable, just less as reward is lower with risk of side-effects being constant).
Nor do I believe that people who chose not to undergo this specific medical procedure did so believing they will never encounter the virus. Now simply they have higher chance of encountering lower-severity version of it.

And Matt;

Unfortunately I do acknowledge that majority of Canadians don't support human rights.
Will never accept it though or stop speaking up for the abused minority.

Higher number of scumbags is not a justification for being a scumbag


----------



## zinfit

The recently approved anti -viral in pill form from Pfizer. It is 90% at preventing high risk people from requiring hospitalization. The problem is the shortage of supply. Doctors have to decide who can gain access to this pill. Some says discrimination is necessary and the system should cross off the unvaccinated for starters. I certainly lean in that direction. What do you think? For starters the same anti-vaxxers arguments applies to this break through treatment as they have used for the vaccines. The difference here is the invermechin didn't work and they have covid and are high risk.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Copying from my post #7718 from the Covid thread in my response yesterday to damian13ster's similiar announcement of the anti-viral pill, this is what I think:



> #7,718 · 24 h ago
> 
> _^ Even you can afford them, given the limited supply, I'm certain Pfizer is going to come up with some criteria(s) to ration them. First and foremost, reserve them only for those who were vaxxed and be sick enough for their medication(s) to be effective_.


 ... aka ONLY FAIR.

I should add that the Canadian government should consider a cutoff date to vaccinate and charge for the Covid vaccines (just like any other, be it shingles, tetanus, etc.) after this date.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> ...
> 
> And Matt;
> 
> Unfortunately I do acknowledge that majority of Canadians don't support human rights.
> Will never accept it though or stop speaking up for the abused minority.
> 
> Higher number of scumbags is not a justification for being a scumbag


 ... you do realize that you just called yourself a scumbag too because are you of a minority? No, as you belong to the majority of scumbags living in Canada.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Copying from my post #7718 from the Covid thread in my response yesterday to damian13ster's similiar announcement of the anti-viral pill, this is what I think:
> _"Even you can afford them, given the limited supply, I'm certain Pfizer is going to come up with some criteria(s) to ration them. First and foremost, reserve them only for those who were vaxxed and be sick enough for their medication(s) to be effective"_
> ... aka ONLY FAIR.
> 
> I should add that the Canadian government should consider a cutoff date to vaccinate and charge for the Covid vaccines (just like any other, be it shingles, tetanus, etc.) after this date.


Lol, so Pfizer now decides who gets the shot instead of our own highly paid health experts? And what an amazing coincidence they want to reward those who helped them to record profits.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Lol, so Pfizer now decides who gets the shot instead of our own highly paid health experts?


 ... and all this time, you thought Canadians, including our highly paid health experts own Pfizer. LOL. Are you sure you're paying your taxes to Revenue Canada, and not IRS?



> And what an amazing coincidence they want to reward those who helped them to record profits.


 ... I don't own Pfizer stocks so can't comment on this. But then I wouldn't be surprised that you own an ETF that holds Pfizer that pays for your happy retirement. LMAO.


----------



## zinfit

Why would an anti-vaxxer want to take a Pfizer anti viral treatment with a limited track record? May-be it is different because it enters the body through the mouth rather then a jab?


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Why would an anti-vaxxer want to take a Pfizer anti viral treatment with a limited track record? May-be it is different because it enters the body through the mouth rather then a jab?


Well lots of people find pills easier to accept than needles.

also there is a difference between a medical intervention when you're healthy, and a medical intervention when you're sick.


----------



## Eder

Beaver101 said:


> I should add that the Canadian government should consider a cutoff date to vaccinate and charge for the Covid vaccines (just like any other, be it shingles, tetanus, etc.) after this date.


Figures...even though the Canadian government doesn't administer any health care why worry about details when theres so much hate to spread around!


----------



## KaeJS

MrMatt said:


> You have to understand that most people don't support human rights.
> 
> For them, your "human rights" end where their personal sense of entitlement starts.


Ah...

Ye good ole' "Don't tread on me" line.

But it's true.

My rights don't end where other people's feelings begin.

If only some people could understand this.


----------



## sags

Your rights are granted by society.

Society giveth and society taketh away.


----------



## damian13ster

That's what socialists in Germany said as well.
That's what China says about muslims.
That's what Canadians said about Natives
If this is the standard you live by - you are the problem.

Just understand that some other people have higher moral and ethical standard and will speak out against human rights abuse.


----------



## KaeJS

I AM society, sags.

I live here.
I pay taxes.
I contribute.

Which means I have a say. My say is just as important as yours. Not more, not less.

What IS more important is that my body is mine, which means I decide what goes into it.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Come on people. The drugs will go to the person who needs them the most, as they always have. Being in short supply in the initial deliveries, we will find that after triage the entire supply will end up going entirely to the unvaccinated, as it should, because they will be deemed to be at the highest level of risk.

So far no human rights have actually been infringed upon, no matter how much some people want to push that narrative. So far we have simply implemented safety protocols. Perhaps those protocols do not stand on science as strongly as they should but they are still safety protocols, no different then speed limits on the highway.

Denying healthcare to someone who needs it simply because one group says another group made a wrong decision in the past is definitely stepping past the line. Just my opinion of course.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> Why would an anti-vaxxer want to take a Pfizer anti viral treatment with a limited track record? May-be it is different because it enters the body through the mouth rather then a jab?


 ... great question!


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Well lots of people find pills easier to accept than needles.
> 
> also there is a difference between a medical intervention when you're healthy, and a medical intervention when you're sick.


A Texas hospital administrator says the average stay in a ICU pre covid was 7 days. The average for unvaccinated covid patients is 7 weeks. He made it clear that these individuals are seriously impacting the medical treatment of patients with other conditions. Are the rights of the unvaccinated more important the rights people with other serious health issues? At some point the claims under the guise of human rights starts sounding very selfish and hallow. No right is an absolute . At some point their is trade off when it comes to social responsibilty.


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> Figures...even though the Canadian government doesn't administer any health care why worry about details when theres so much hate to spread around!


 ... of course the Canadian government (the Feds) don't administer any health care, it just procures the vaccines meaning just be prepared to fund ALL the expenses when the pandemic is over (whenever). But then it wouldn't be applicable to you since you're too busy travelling, getting out of this lousy country, close to renouncing being a Canadian. The shame. No wonder there's no love to begin with.


----------



## damian13ster

OptsyEagle said:


> Come on people. The drugs will go to the person who needs them the most, as they always have. Being in short supply in the initial deliveries, we will find that after triage the entire supply will end up going entirely to the unvaccinated, as it should, because they will be deemed to be at the highest level of risk.
> 
> So far no human rights have actually been infringed upon, no matter how much some people want to push that narrative. So far we have simply implemented safety protocols. Perhaps those protocols do not stand on science as strongly as they should but they are still safety protocols, no different then speed limits on the highway.
> 
> Denying healthcare to someone who needs it simply because one group says another group made a wrong decision in the past is definitely stepping past the line. Just my opinion of course.


According to courts, human rights have been violated. There are multiple statements by court that Sections 2, 6, 7, 15 of Charter were violated. Of course they were not stricken down because of Section 1 - loophole allowing human rights violation in Canada. Section 33 is a doozy too. - In Canada human rights are as valuable as used toilet paper.

Human rights violation are legal in Canada. They are legal in China. They were legal in Germany.

There is a difference between law, ethics, and morality. 
You can argue that human rights violation is legal in Canada, since it is all subjective.
You can't argue though that human rights abuse is moral or ethical.

And don't start with BS of use force vs penalties. Coercion is a type of a force. If I point a gun at your head and tell you to do something, you are likely to do it, and can argue it was a 'choice'.
Same if I tell you I will strip you of all the income, all the freedoms, have your family starve unless you make a choice I want you to make. Coercion is a force.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Healthcare services will always fall back on triage rules. If you step away from that everything starts to disintegrate. Under triage rules it is my opinion the unvaccinated will be deemed the most worthy recipient of this type of healthcare.

Come on people we are all Canadians. The job of our healthcare system is to save as many Canadians as possible. It's not there to punish anyone for bad decisions or even to judge on what decisions are good or bad, it is there to save as many Canadians as it can at the time. If you start to move away from that mandate it will get very murky very quickly.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> So far no human rights have actually been infringed upon, no matter how much some people want to push that narrative.


I disagree. 
They are requiring a medical intervention to exercise other rights.



> So far we have simply implemented safety protocols. Perhaps those protocols do not stand on science as strongly as they should but they are still safety protocols, no different then speed limits on the highway.


Actually there are a few differences.
Firstly I'm not sure exactly what the scientific argument is anyway.

You don't have an inherent right to operate a motor vehicle, that privilege comes with restrictions, one of which is to obey the traffic laws. What right is being violated with a speed limit?

In Canada you do have a right to refuse medical treatment, you shouldn't have to surrender that right to partake in other activities. Similarly the amount of pressure being applied is ridiculous, they're firing people, denying them EI and severance and other workplace rights. In some cases they're denying them health care.

Remember, if you don't have COVID you aren't a risk, irrespective of vaccination status. There simply is no logical argument for vaccination status based restrictions.


----------



## HappilyRetired

MrMatt said:


> Remember, if you don't have COVID you aren't a risk, irrespective of vaccination status. There simply is no logical argument for vaccination status based restrictions.


It's never been about science. People who have never had Covid are the safest people to be around.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Anyway, I won't be drawn back into an argument on human rights versus safety protocols mainly because you guys probably have a few good points making the many opposing arguments more difficult to see.

I am just saying that restricting healthcare is a whole new ball game, one that is immoral and as importantly, has many healthcare ramifications going forward.

Once implemented here for the unvaccinated we would very quickly start to see new rules in the future pertaining to smokers, alcohol drinkers, cannabis use, drivers who were going over the speed limit before an accident, over weight, and just about anything else one person can think of to exclude another.


----------



## zinfit

OptsyEagle said:


> Anyway, I won't be drawn back into an argument on human rights versus safety protocols mainly because you guys probably have a few good points making the many opposing arguments more difficult to see.
> 
> I am just saying that restricting healthcare is a whole new ball game, one that is immoral and as importantly, has many healthcare ramifications going forward.
> 
> Once implemented here for the unvaccinated we would very quickly start to see new rules in the future pertaining to smokers, alcohol drinkers, cannabis use, drivers who were going over the speed limit before an accident, over weight, and just about anything else one person can think of to exclude another.


THe Pfizer anti-viral is and will be in short supply and there won't be enough to treat all the covid patients. Healthcare systems will have to decide who gets this medication and who doesn't. It isn't a debate about denying healthcare its about who gets access to a drug in short supply. My point if the scoring system is a tie between vaccinated and the unvaccinated I would favor the vaccinated. In this scenario how would you decide who gets the treatment?


----------



## zinfit

HappilyRetired said:


> It's never been about science. People who have never had Covid are the safest people to be around.


no kidding


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I disagree.
> They are requiring a medical intervention to exercise other rights.
> 
> Actually there are a few differences.
> Firstly I'm not sure exactly what the scientific argument is anyway.
> 
> You don't have an inherent right to operate a motor vehicle, that privilege comes with restrictions, one of which is to obey the traffic laws. What right is being violated with a speed limit?
> 
> In Canada you do have a right to refuse medical treatment, you shouldn't have to surrender that right to partake in other activities. Similarly the amount of pressure being applied is ridiculous, they're firing people, denying them EI and severance and other workplace rights. In some cases they're denying them health care.


 ... it's funny you keep spinning about individual rights trumping over societal rights and yet don't mention anything about MAID as an individual "right" at all despite it's perfectly legal now in Canada.



> Remember, if you don't have COVID you aren't a risk, irrespective of vaccination status. There simply is no logical argument for vaccination status based restrictions.


... based on your logic at this fixated thinking and point in time, so what happens if an "unvaxxed" "employee" (instance where the employer bends to this individual's "rights") 1. gets infected with Covid by a known "vaxxed employee" on the job, and 2. becomes hospitalised? Or are you expecting the unvaxxed employee (if lucky enough, with mild symptoms) would simply go home to isolate quietly? You work for an arms-length employer and in management too so what would you do?


----------



## OptsyEagle

zinfit said:


> THe Pfizer anti-viral is and will be in short supply and there won't be enough to treat all the covid patients. Healthcare systems will have to decide who gets this medication and who doesn't. It isn't a debate about denying healthcare its about who gets access to a drug in short supply. My point if the scoring system is a tie between vaccinated and the unvaccinated I would favor the vaccinated. In this scenario how would you decide who gets the treatment?



I understand the debate but in that debate the unvaccinated win in 2 categories:

1) Most in need
2) Improvement to pandemic by reducing or eliminating their longer stay in hospitals.

The only argument against them will be someone or many people simply deciding about who is more deserving. The above is the only thing that can ever decide these things properly.

Not only is it morally right but if we don't use rigid rules like that it is a rabbit hole without end.


----------



## OptsyEagle

By the way, at the risk of bringing back the human rights people, the issue of vaccine mandates and passports is an easy one for me, because I am not spending a lot of time on the legal issues. They are interesting and I have often wondered why many of the human rights proponents do not take this issue to a judge, but I have no interest in that.

This issue is all about morality and duty, in my opinion. The unvaccinated had a duty to vaccinate. That is my main argument and the only argument the matters to me. Does that argument supersede the legalities of the issue. Of course not, because morals and duty will always be a personal opinion. That is why we have laws.

I am just stating that they had a duty to their community to vaccinate. They can disagree all they want but it will not change my opinion on the matter and the opinion of many of their friends and neighbours. Because of that I am happy to look the other way, with respect to vaccine mandates and passports. If a judge decides to change things, I will be happy to abide by that decision as well.

That is where I stand. Is there risks for future issues with my stance? Of course, but I am willing to take that small risk for the big gains vaccination can provide. The benefits outweigh the risks, in my opinion.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> I understand the debate but in that debate the unvaccinated win in 2 categories:
> 
> 1) Most in need
> 2) Improvement to pandemic by reducing or eliminating their longer stay in hospitals.
> 
> The only argument against them will be someone or many people simply deciding about who is more deserving. The above is the only thing that can ever decide these things properly.
> 
> Not only is it morally right but if we don't use rigid rules like that it is a rabbit hole without end.


 ... please re-read zinfit's post. So where does this leaves the hospitalized "vaxxed " patients (or are you expecting there'll be none?) who can make use of this medication? And then amongst these (vaxxed) patients, how do you determine who gets the medication or your version of "most in need"? Or is it your contention, only the hospitalized un-vaxxeds are to be concerned with/tended to?


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> I am just stating that they had a duty to their community to vaccinate.


Why?
The vaccine doesn't stop spreading COVID19.
To keep you from ending up in a hospital bed?

But lets say that there is an duty to vaccinate, for whatever reason.
What risk of death is reasonable to demand?
1 in 2, 1 in 10, 1 in 100, 1 in 10k, 1 in 100k, 1 in 1Million?

FYI, the Canadian government decided that a risk of 1 in a million was too high to even allow people to choose. (AZ vaccine)

I'd suggest requiring people to take a 1 in 10k risk of dying to appease your vaccine desires is too high a risk to demand.
Can we agree on that?

Now what is your number, what risk of death do we *demand* people take?

I'd say that we should allow people to take a 1 in a million risk if they want, but even at a risk of 1 in a million I think it should be a choice. 
Note at this point I'm far more pro vax and than the government. And I personally took AZ.


----------



## Beaver101

I don't know this guy but his letter has all the sprinklings of wisdom, if not plain common-sense. And it helps that he's a "real" (as in real-life, on this planet called earth) virologist/expert. 

Read the letter a virologist sent his family on how to best protect themselves from the Omicron variant


----------



## OptsyEagle

Beaver101 said:


> ... please re-read zinfit's post. So where does this leaves the hospitalized "vaxxed " patients (or are you expecting there'll be none?) who can make use of this medication? And then amongst these (vaxxed) patients, how do you determine who gets the medication or your version of "most in need"? Or is it your contention, only the hospitalized un-vaxxeds are to be concerned with/tended to?


From my understanding this drug needs to be taken long before a person gets to the hospital. Early in the viral stage of the infection. Because of that, doctors will need to decide which infected person is at higher risk to develop a more severe outcome.

It is my opinion, that when that question is asked the unvaccinated will win that contest almost every single time, at least when looked at on an age for age comparison.


----------



## sags

People who smoke or do drugs are not given heart or lung transplants until they have stopped smoking or doing drugs for a period of time.

Given the resources required, the doctors want the best chance of successful transplants.

All patients will receive basic care, but it if comes down to a decision vaccination status will certainly be a factor considered.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> Why?
> The vaccine doesn't stop spreading COVID19.
> To keep you from ending up in a hospital bed?
> 
> But lets say that there is an duty to vaccinate, for whatever reason.
> What risk of death is reasonable to demand?
> 1 in 2, 1 in 10, 1 in 100, 1 in 10k, 1 in 100k, 1 in 1Million?
> 
> FYI, the Canadian government decided that a risk of 1 in a million was too high to even allow people to choose. (AZ vaccine)
> 
> I'd suggest requiring people to take a 1 in 10k risk of dying to appease your vaccine desires is too high a risk to demand.
> Can we agree on that?
> 
> Now what is your number, what risk of death do we *demand* people take?
> 
> I'd say that we should allow people to take a 1 in a million risk if they want, but even at a risk of 1 in a million I think it should be a choice.
> Note at this point I'm far more pro vax and than the government. And I personally took AZ.


To keep our healthcare system operational. I have gone through this question so many times it is getting very tiring. They were not airlifting very ill patients from Alberta, all the way to Ontario, a few months ago, because too many vaccinated people were going to the hospital. It was a problem of too many unvaccinated people getting deathly ill from Covid-19. A problem that we had a very effective solution for.

At that time, we really needed the unvaccinated to do their duty and help protect our healthcare system. They did not. That is my point.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> *From my understanding this drug needs to be taken long before a person gets to the hospital. Early in the viral stage of the infection.* Because of that, doctors will need to decide which infected person is at higher risk to develop a more severe outcome.
> 
> *It is my opinion, that when that question is asked the unvaccinated will win that contest almost every single time, *at least when looked at on an age for age comparison.


 ... your opinion does not jive with your first statement. In fact, it affirms your contention aka "opinion" that the medication was developed for the unvaxxeds. If that's the case, it'll be interesting which unvaxxed patient who isn't sick enough to be in the hospital but does eventually get hospitalized gets the medication first to prevent death. ????


----------



## sags

Society could completely disintegrate and some idiots would still be hollering about their individual "human rights".

Fortunately, the vast majority of Canadians possess better critical thinking skills and will make the decisions for them.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Beaver101 said:


> ... your opinion does not jive with your first statement. In fact, it affirms your contention aka "opinion" that the medication was developed for the unvaxxeds. If that's the case, it'll be interesting which unvaxxed patient who isn't sick enough to be in the hospital but does eventually get hospitalized gets the medication first to prevent death. ????


Only you beav could misunderstand such a clear post.


----------



## sags

A life raft in the ocean built for 5 people and you have 10 people onboard. The raft is barely above water and one more passenger will sink the boat.

There are other people in the water. Do you pull them into the boat and everyone will drown ?

It is an age old philosophical question.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> People who smoke or do drugs are not given heart or lung transplants until they have stopped smoking or doing drugs for a period of time.
> 
> *Given the resources required, the doctors want the best chance of successful transplants.*
> 
> All patients will receive basic care, but it if comes down to a decision vaccination status will certainly be a factor considered.


 ... exactly, someone who can be "saved" in the eyes of the doctor but not being evaluated first having to put in an effort to save oneself.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> Only you beav could misunderstand such a clear post.


 ... let's see who else understood your "clear" post. Ask zinfit since you were rebutting him. If he did, I'll delete my post/response to you.


----------



## sags

Your post isn't very clear Optsy. You seem conflicted between wanting to protect society and protecting the imaginary "rights" that don't exist for the un-vaxxed.

In this debate I think you have to pick a lane.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> A life raft in the ocean built for 5 people and you have 10 people onboard. The raft is barely above water and one more passenger will sink the boat and everyone will drown.
> 
> There are other people in the water. Do you stop and pull them into the boat ?


 ... yes without hesitation, according to some posters on this forum because those in the water have "rights" too, to live. In fact, they'll gladly trade places with the kids and women drowning in the water. [I'll believe this scenario whilst living on Mars.]


----------



## zinfit

OptsyEagle said:


> I understand the debate but in that debate the unvaccinated win in 2 categories:
> 
> 1) Most in need
> 2) Improvement to pandemic by reducing or eliminating their longer stay in hospitals.
> 
> The only argument against them will be someone or many people simply deciding about who is more deserving. The above is the only thing that can ever decide these things properly.
> 
> Not only is it morally right but if we don't use rigid rules like that it is a rabbit hole without end.


objective or subjective standard? I would much prefer the first.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> To keep our healthcare system operational. I have gone through this question so many times it is getting very tiring. They were not airlifting very ill patients from Alberta, all the way to Ontario, a few months ago, because too many vaccinated people were going to the hospital. It was a problem of too many unvaccinated people getting deathly ill from Covid-19. A problem that we had a very effective solution for.
> 
> At that time, we really needed the unvaccinated to do their duty and help protect our healthcare system. They did not. That is my point.


Again you refuse to answer how much risk should we require a person to take.

Also if we have a duty to get vaccinated to avoid getting hospitalized, what about all our other duties?
Maybe get in a minimum of 1 hour of exercise a day, eat healthy, be informed, manage your finance prudently and so on.

Today it looks like everyone is getting Omicron, we're over 9k new cases today, and that's of people tested. Vaccinated or not, it doesn't seem matter.


So really I have to ask, what risk of death from the vaccine is acceptable? None of you human rights violators seem to be able to even state a ballpark about how much risk we should force on people.
My answer is clear, for the previous variants I'd grab a 1 in 100k risk no problem. 
But I wouldn't force anyone else to, not a 1 in 100k, not at 1 in a million. I won't do that to someone.

Also if you're so hell bent on coercing vaccinations on people who dont' want them, what do you have to say about the government holding back the boosters until it's too late to actually administer them before the 5th wave


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> Your post isn't very clear Optsy. You seem conflicted between wanting to protect society and protecting the imaginary "rights" that don't exist for the un-vaxxed.
> 
> In this debate I think you have to pick a lane.


I want healthcare issues determined for healthcare reasons.

The confusion you are referring to is simply disagreement. That's fine. Perhaps there are other opinions with merit. But in my opinion, if you start denying healthcare to a person who exercised their legal right, even if I believe it to be morally wrong, you open up a can of worms that will soon become a detriment to everyone in the society and therefore it does not protect society.

I am hoping people can see that difference but my hopes get dashed quickly on these boards. I do come here to hear the differences in opinion, since they are very helpful in developing my own.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> Again you refuse to answer how much risk should we require a person to take.
> 
> Also if we have a duty to get vaccinated to avoid getting hospitalized, what about all our other duties?
> Maybe get in a minimum of 1 hour of exercise a day, eat healthy, be informed, manage your finance prudently and so on.
> 
> Today it looks like everyone is getting Omicron, we're over 9k new cases today, and that's of people tested. Vaccinated or not, it doesn't seem matter.


Your points are quite valid. I have often wondered why the unvaccinated to not take this issue to a judge. That is where it needs to be discussed, not on a message board.

On the particular issue of vaccine passports, I am going with the age old system that it is better to apologize afterwards then to ask permission in advance. I believe if a mistreatment is taking place, and it probably is, the benefits of it outweigh the risks. If a judge tells me to smarten up, I am fine with that, as well.

As for employment vaccine mandates, I have never really been in agreement with those, at least to the level of termination. That is a little more severe then I think the unvaccinated deserve, but they delve into a lot of issues and I am happy to abstain my opinion on those. A judge really does need to chime in but it could be difficult to find the right one. I would think any Judge that was either vaccinated or unvaccinated might need to excuse themselves for conflict of interest reasons. lol. Just joking. I assume our legal system has seen this before and could find a judge to decide it.


----------



## Eder

With Omicron infecting as many vaccinated people as unvaccinated I think the idea of vaccine passports will no longer offer any benefit.


----------



## KaeJS

sags said:


> A life raft in the ocean built for 5 people and you have 10 people onboard. The raft is barely above water and one more passenger will sink the boat.
> 
> There are other people in the water. Do you pull them into the boat and everyone will drown ?
> 
> It is an age old philosophical question.


Apples to oranges.

You're talking about an immediate, emergency situation that requires instant attention resulting in guaranteed deaths or else.

The answer is that you let the other people die.

But regardless of the answer, the situation is so beyond different than taking a vaccine that the answer doesn't even matter.

Not taking a vaccine does not guarantee deaths. It COULD result in deaths, but it may not. Your boat simulation makes no relevance in regards to the topic of discussion.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Eder said:


> With Omicron infecting as many vaccinated people as unvaccinated I think the idea of vaccine passports will no longer offer any benefit.


There benefit had little to do with reducing transmission, even if those were the reasons put forward to implement them. IMO there main benefit was to convince an unvaccinated person to vaccinate. Since they were introduced Ontario saw 170,000 unvaccinated people, age 50 or older, vaccinate. Over 40% of those in that critical group who were holding out up to that time. We also should have noticed that we had no hospital issues after the Thanksgiving get togethers and it is yet to be seen if we will get any from Christmas. So far I am calling it a success.

Since I doubt we will get many more to come forward and vaccinate I am willing to see them set aside at this time. That said, from a political view, there is no snowballs chance in hades that you will see the vaccine passports removed when the infection rate is still going hyperbolic in an upward direction. As soon as that comes under control I suspect we can put a lot of this aside and move on.


----------



## sags

Doctors make ethical and moral decisions all the time.

My dad had a brain tumor and was referred to a study of a new drug to treat brain tumors.

After meeting with the doctors he was declined as he did not meet the program "criteria".

They gave me the news and said they were sorry. I asked how long my dad would live without the treatment and they said.....maybe 6 months.

He died 6 months later. They knew they were giving him a death sentence, but they had to make difficult decisions.

Some posters don't seem to live in the real world. They think these kinds of decisions are something new and haven't happened before.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Why?
> The vaccine doesn't stop spreading COVID19.
> To keep you from ending up in a hospital bed?
> 
> But lets say that there is an duty to vaccinate, for whatever reason.
> What risk of death is reasonable to demand?
> 1 in 2, 1 in 10, 1 in 100, 1 in 10k, 1 in 100k, 1 in 1Million?
> 
> FYI, the Canadian government decided that a risk of 1 in a million was too high to even allow people to choose. (AZ vaccine)
> 
> I'd suggest requiring people to take a 1 in 10k risk of dying to appease your vaccine desires is too high a risk to demand.
> Can we agree on that?
> 
> Now what is your number, what risk of death do we *demand* people take?
> 
> I'd say that we should allow people to take a 1 in a million risk if they want, but even at a risk of 1 in a million I think it should be a choice.
> Note at this point I'm far more pro vax and than the government. And I personally took AZ.


the point you seem to forget is a substantial number of people who are in hospitals with covid are unvaccinated. As a administrator of a large hospital system in Texas said the average stay in ICUs prior to covid was 7 days. The average stay for unvaccinated is 7 or 8 weeks. This is the one reality which is hard to ignore.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> the point you seem to forget is a substantial number of people who are in hospitals with covid are unvaccinated.


What makes you think I forgot this?
I'm perfectly aware of this fact.

I'm not accusing anyone of "forgetting" human rights, I'm simply pointing out that they're ignoring them. 
It's not forgetting, it's a willful choice to ignore them.
Even when they claim the "social benefit" argument, they don't even bother to elaborate on what factors, I don't think a single other person has said what vaccine death rate/risk of death would make their vaccine mandates unacceptable.

I've been clear I don't have a number, but I think even 1 in a million is too high. Come on people what's you're number? How many Canadians are you willing to kill in the name of making sure every single Canadian is vaccinated?

I say none, the benefits of the vaccine are not sufficient to justify forcing people to risk their lives.
Like any medical procedure, it should be a free and informed choice.


----------



## sags

How many deaths are attributed to the vaccines ?

I read that of the 10,000 "reported" cases in the US, only 9 could be attributed to blood clots and they now administer blood thinners to prevent that from happening.

With over 500 million doses administered in the US alone, even a small % of people dying would be a big number.

It doesn't exist because hardly anyone has died from receiving a vaccine.

People should provide evidence of what they claim or they are just spreading FUD.

How many people in the US die from guns every day ? Applying anti-vaccine logic.....the US certainly should ban all guns.


*Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare*_. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. *Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. *More than* 485 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines* were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through December 13, 2021. During this time, VAERS received* 10,483 reports of death (0.0022%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine*. CDC and FDA clinicians review reports of death to VAERS including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records.

A review of reports indicates a causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccine and TTS. CDC scientists have conducted detailed reviews of TTS cases and made the information available to healthcare providers and the public:_
_US Case Reports of Cerebral Venous Sinus Thrombosis With Thrombocytopenia After Ad26.COV2.S Vaccination, March 2 to April 21, 2021external icon_
_Case Series of Thrombosis with Thrombocytopenia Syndrome following COVID-19 vaccination—United States, December 2020–August 2021external icon_
_Updates on Thrombosis with Thrombocytopenia Syndrome (TTS) pdf icon[1.3 MB, 39 Pages]_

_
Continued monitoring has identified *nine deaths causally associated with J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccination*. CDC and FDA continue to review reports of death following COVID-19 vaccination and update information as it becomes available._










COVID-19 Vaccination


COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




www.cdc.gov


----------



## damian13ster

@OptsyEagle

Good question about the judge.
Why don't Uyghurs don't take their issue before the judge?
Why didn't residential school residents take their issue before the judge?
Why didn't every single abused subset of population simply take the issue before the judge and solve all the problems?

The answer is simple - just because something is legal doesn't mean it is moral, ethical, or is not a human rights violation.
Canadian Constitution and Charter of Rights and Freedoms is equivalent of a toilet paper.
Section 1 can be invoked whenever government wants, and if the low, subjective bar for human rights breaking they set for themselves is not cleared, they can invoke Section 33 and don't have to give a **** - human rights abuse is legal.

Canada has the single weakest constitution in entire developed world - it is an issue that should have been fixed when government committed genocide against First Nations people, when they forced people to sterilization.
Unfortunately even that didn't result in human rights abuse being made illegal in Canada


----------



## Beaver101

KaeJS said:


> Apples to oranges.
> 
> You're talking about an immediate, emergency situation that requires instant attention resulting in guaranteed deaths or else.
> 
> The answer is that you let the other people die.
> 
> But regardless of the answer, the situation is so beyond different than taking a vaccine that the answer doesn't even matter.
> 
> Not taking a vaccine does not guarantee deaths. It COULD result in deaths, but it may not. *Your boat simulation makes no relevance in regards to the topic of discussion.*


 ... sags was responding to OE's post in regards to the newly being developed "anti-viral medication (pill form)", presumably as a successful "treatment" to prevent deaths from Covid, not as a vaccine so of course, your post is comparing grapes to figs.

But even then, if this anti-viral medication (pill form) is used to replace the jab, will the anti-vaxxers be all so willing to take them? Do they not feel like lab-rats now?


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> What makes you think I forgot this?
> I'm perfectly aware of this fact.
> 
> I'm not accusing anyone of "forgetting" human rights, I'm simply pointing out that they're ignoring them.
> It's not forgetting, it's a willful choice to ignore them.
> Even when they claim the "social benefit" argument, they don't even bother to elaborate on what factors, I don't think a single other person has said what vaccine death rate/risk of death would make their vaccine mandates unacceptable.
> 
> I've been clear I don't have a number, but I think even 1 in a million is too high. Come on people what's you're number? How many Canadians are you willing to kill in the name of making sure every single Canadian is vaccinated?
> 
> I say none, the benefits of the vaccine are not sufficient to justify forcing people to risk their lives.
> Like any medical procedure, it should be a free and informed choice.


Well I am looking at the human rights of the healthcare workers who have been trapped in treating covid patients in ICUs and non-covid patients who have their treatments delayed or impaired. Human rights isn't a an absolute . In a civil society in which responsibilties to one another is a high priority sometimes we have get off our high horse when it comes to rights. If a vacciination based on crediable medical advice would not be recommended I can understand that. I suspect that applies to a minute percentage of the anti -vax crowd. People who consistently defend their rights are pretty close to being enablers.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Well I am looking at the human rights of the healthcare workers who have been trapped in treating covid patients in ICUs and non-covid patients who have their treatments delayed or impaired. Human rights isn't a an absolute . In a civil society in which responsibilties to one another is a high priority sometimes we have get off our high horse when it comes to rights. If a vacciination based on crediable medical advice would not be recommended I can understand that. I suspect that applies to a minute percentage of the anti -vax crowd. People who consistently defend their rights are pretty close to being enablers.


Wow, modern authoritarians have really given up even pretending to support liberal values.

Yes, I'm an "enabler" of human rights. thanks for the complement. Though I assume to you enabling and supporting human rights is somehow a bad thing.

There is credible evidence that vaccinations can cause serious harm and death, so what part is confusing you?
What you don't understand, and like all the mandatory vaxxers seem to be unable to answer at all is how much risk is too much? I've been asking for months, and nobody seems to answer. 
I actually think it's part of your debate "strategy", admit that there is some level of risk where it's okay to say no, but to NEVER identify what risk level that is. You're pretending to understand and accept there are legitimate concerns, but seem to just stop short of actually accepting any reason.

Remember I knowingly took the higher risk vaccine right before the government banned it for being "too dangerous". I think that most anti-vaxxers are quite simply wrong. However their body their choice. If I can't keep a woman from killing her baby, I can't force someone to inject themselves either. If you support abortion, that's the knowing execution of a baby, in the name of 'their body their choice", I can't wrap my head around the mental gymnastics under mandatory vaccination.


----------



## sags

Enablers is a good descriptor for people who support un-vaccinated people infecting others and incubating mutations.


----------



## Eder

Heres a list of appropriate Holiday carols for all Canadians celebrating this year...from the Babylon Bee.



*“I'll Be Vaxxed for Christmas”* - A merry, joyful reminder that only the vaxxed are allowed to enjoy Christmas.

*"It Came Upon A Mandate Clear" *- Sing this beautiful carol and remember your first mandate. Precious memories...

*"Baby, There's COVID Outside" *- That's a billion times worse than it being cold outside! 

*"Silent Media" - *The Wuhan Virology Lab released a virus upon the world... and the media fell reverently silent.

*"Do You Fear What I Fear" *- If it's not COVID, you're killing Grandma. 

*"Have Yourself A Lonely Little Christmas" - *OR ELSE. 

*"God Rest Ye Boosted Gentlemen" - *The only gentlemen who have a right to rest are the ones who are boosted.

*"mRNA In a Manager" - *Remember the birth of the savior: mRNA. 

*"Fauci Baby" *- As sung by Brian Stelter. 

*"It's Beginning to Look a Lot Like Wuhan" *- Unsurprisingly, this carol is illegal in Wuhan.

*“Santa Claus Is Staying at Home”* - “He sees you defying lockdowns, he knows when you’re not vaxxed, he is not coming anyway, so stay home and wear a mask!”

*"All I Want For Christmas Is Ivermectin" *- A conservative favorite.

*"Jab to the World" - *Who needs "joy" when you got that jab? 

*"Fauci the Vaxman" - *Why hasn't he melted away yet? 

*"Ave Moderna" - *AAAAAVVVEE MO-DERRRRRR-ERRRRR-NAAAAAA

*“Have an Omi-Cron-y Christmas”* - The hit single of 2021 is raging through the world after its South Africa debut!

*"Good King Brandon" - *Let's go Brandon! 

*"Grandma Got COVID By A Cuomo" *- An unsettlingly peppy song. 

*“Mary Did You Know (About the Vaccine Mandate)”* - Sometimes a Christian holiday mansplainer is needed to spread the joy of mandates.

*“Sanitize The Halls”* - “Fa-la-la-la-la-la wash your hands!”


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Wow, modern authoritarians have really given up even pretending to support liberal values.
> 
> Yes, I'm an "enabler" of human rights. thanks for the complement. Though I assume to you enabling and supporting human rights is somehow a bad thing.
> 
> There is credible evidence that vaccinations can cause serious harm and death, so what part is confusing you?
> What you don't understand, and like all the mandatory vaxxers seem to be unable to answer at all is how much risk is too much? I've been asking for months, and nobody seems to answer.
> I actually think it's part of your debate "strategy", admit that there is some level of risk where it's okay to say no, but to NEVER identify what risk level that is. You're pretending to understand and accept there are legitimate concerns, but seem to just stop short of actually accepting any reason.
> 
> Remember I knowingly took the higher risk vaccine right before the government banned it for being "too dangerous". I think that most anti-vaxxers are quite simply wrong. However their body their choice. If I can't keep a woman from killing her baby, I can't force someone to inject themselves either. If you support abortion, that's the knowing execution of a baby, in the name of 'their body their choice", I can't wrap my head around the mental gymnastics under mandatory vaccination.


Don't know were you get it that Moderna or Pfizer is dangerous. Alberta Health has been tracking every negative effect following a vaccination. The changes of dying from these vaccines is about as likely as getting struck by lighting three times in the same week. Sags also posted the CDC data on this topic and it appears to be a similar story. There is a remote risk of serious blood clots with J&J and Astrazenca but neither of those are really being used. In terms of heart inflammation problems with young males it is far less frequent and less serious then the heart problems that covid has caused for young males.


----------



## sags

The enablers won't be happy until all the hospitals are overrun and people are dying in their cars in the parking lots.

Given the terrible news today, we may not be far from that reality.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Don't know were you get it that Moderna or Pfizer is dangerous. Alberta Health has been tracking every negative effect following a vaccination. The changes of dying from these vaccines is about as likely as getting struck by lighting three times in the same week. Sags also posted the CDC data on this topic and it appears to be a similar story. There is a remote risk of serious blood clots with J&J and Astrazenca but neither of those are really being used. In terms of heart inflammation problems with young males it is far less frequent and less serious then the heart problems that covid has caused for young males.


Lots of equivocating, and words, but no answer on exactly how risky a procedure you feel is morally justified forcing on the population.

I agree, for myself and most people the risk profile is certainly in favour of vaccination. But that's not the question.
The question has been, and remains, what risk is acceptable to force on someone?

Yeah, so what if a few people die, suffer strokes, as long as they died doing what we told them, instead of what they wanted to choose for themselves. What is most upsetting to me is that you seem completely unconcerned with the fact that you're so willing to infringe on their human rights, that you didn't even bother considering at what point such an infringement was too much.

Like I've said, I don't know if you support a vaccine with a 1% fatality rate or not, you refuse to answer. I think that's because you simply don't want to admit that it doesn't matter, you and people like you will harm and kill as many people as it takes as long as it's to your perceived benefit.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Lots of equivocating, and words, but no answer on exactly how risky a procedure you feel is morally justified forcing on the population.
> 
> I agree, for myself and most people the risk profile is certainly in favour of vaccination. But that's not the question.
> The question has been, and remains, what risk is acceptable to force on someone?
> 
> Yeah, so what if a few people die, suffer strokes, as long as they died doing what we told them, instead of what they wanted to choose for themselves. What is most upsetting to me is that you seem completely unconcerned with the fact that you're so willing to infringe on their human rights, that you didn't even bother considering at what point such an infringement was too much.
> 
> Like I've said, I don't know if you support a vaccine with a 1% fatality rate or not, you refuse to answer. I think that's because you simply don't want to admit that it doesn't matter, you and people like you will harm and kill as many people as it takes as long as it's to your perceived benefit.


Ridiculus to suggest a 1% percent fatality rate. The tracking by Alberta Health and the CDC makes your suggestion of 1 % just plain silly. Start by adding a decimal and a pile of zeros infront of the 1%. Driving a car to locate grocery store or walking across the street would probably create a far greater risk then a vaccine shot. There is a difference between a real and reasonable risk and a far fetched unreasonable risk. Anyways no one is forcing these people to get vaccinated. The vaccinated have the right to be free of dealing with these people. They are just exercising their own human rights.


----------



## Eder

There is no point in us vaccinated people avoiding the unvaxxed...we spread Covid to each other at the same rate they do. Thats why vaccine passports and vaccine records are pretty much pointless.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Eder said:


> There is no point in us vaccinated people avoiding the unvaxxed...we spread Covid to each other at the same rate they do. Thats why vaccine passports and vaccine records are pretty much pointless.


Vaccine passports are useful in identifying the segment of the population that doesn't readily comply. The science of Covid is secondary.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> Ridiculus to suggest a 1% percent fatality rate. The tracking by Alberta Health and the CDC makes your suggestion of 1 % just plain silly. Start by adding a decimal and a pile of zeros infront of the 1%. Driving a car to locate grocery store or walking across the street would probably create a far greater risk then a vaccine shot. There is a difference between a real and reasonable risk and a far fetched unreasonable risk. Anyways no one is forcing these people to get vaccinated. The vaccinated have the right to be free of dealing with these people. They are just exercising their own human rights.


He never claimed it is 1%.

He asked a simple question:
- at what specific risk would you be against forced injections?

And yes - coercion is force. I will point a gun at your head or make your family starve unless you make a certain 'choice' - that is coercion.

No, vaccinated don't have rights to be free of dealing of these people. There is no right that guarantees you will never have to deal with people who have different opinions or make different choices than you do.


----------



## damian13ster

Every supporter of authoritarianism and tyranny out there trying to equate respect for human rights with conspiracy theory. It doesn't work like that.

You can trust data and science and respect human rights - crazy concept.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Ridiculus to suggest a 1% percent fatality rate. The tracking by Alberta Health and the CDC makes your suggestion of 1 % just plain silly. Start by adding a decimal and a pile of zeros infront of the 1%. Driving a car to locate grocery store or walking across the street would probably create a far greater risk then a vaccine shot. There is a difference between a real and reasonable risk and a far fetched unreasonable risk. Anyways no one is forcing these people to get vaccinated. The vaccinated have the right to be free of dealing with these people. They are just exercising their own human rights.


It's ridiculous that in months of asking for a number at which point forced/coerced injections becomes unreasonable, you've been unable to come up with a number.
That's because you don't care about other people or their rights, it's to your advantage, so you want it.
You risk nothing, so no level of risk is too high.
It's interesting that you won't even agree that a 1% fatality risk is too high. If you won't even agree that a vaccine that is as lethal as COVID19 itself is "too risky" I don't think it's productive to have a discussion.
Is there really no end of pain and suffering you'll inflict for a marginal benefit to yourself? 

Why do vaccinated have the right to be free of dealing with "those people".
It isn't like they're hurting you.

But I agree, there is a real and reasonable risk, and a far fetched unreasonable risk. 
Your risk of a personal negative outcome from someone with COVID is pretty much the same whether they're vaccinated or not. Since there is no significant difference to you, what reason do you have to make personal medical choices for them?


----------



## MyCatMittens

MrMatt said:


> I agree, for myself and most people the risk profile is certainly in favour of vaccination. But that's not the question.
> The question has been, and remains, what risk is acceptable to force on someone?


I must be missing something, because I don't see that being the question? 

My understanding is:

1. We have a limited capacity in a publicly funded health care system.
2. The only proven method for significantly reducing severe outcomes is vaccination (or self isolating, which is still an option available to those who would like to take it).
3. Once the limited capacity is used up, we start cancelling other operations, which could impact others.
4. Those who do not vaccinate are at a much higher likelihood of severe outcomes.

So, unless we are willing to let people die (we aren't), limit health care to those who vaccinate (we don't), or find a magic fairy that can dramatically increase intensive care spaces... I'm not sure what solution you are proposing? Just let folks not vaccinate, fill up the ICU until capacity, and then put a closed sign out front? And screw anyone else who needs it?

I must be missing something because I just don't understand what the alternative is other than mass vaccination.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> There is no point in us vaccinated people avoiding the unvaxxed...we spread Covid to each other at the same rate they do. Thats why vaccine passports and vaccine records are pretty much pointless.


They're not pointless, they're a tool to track and control. 








Canada's public health agency admits it tracked 33 million mobile devices during lockdown


The Public Health Agency of Canada accessed data such as cell-tower location to monitor people’s activity during lockdown, it said




nationalpost.com





COVID has given them the excuses they've been waiting for.
1. Mass surveillance and tracking of the population.
2. Control and censorship of social media and the news.

Imagine the ability to track every person everywhere, prohibit untracked travel and interactions of people, then track and monitor all their communication.


----------



## MrMatt

MyCatMittens said:


> I must be missing something, because I don't see that being the question?


The question is if it is morally right to force someone to undergo a medical procedure they do not want.



> I must be missing something because I just don't understand what the alternative is other than mass vaccination.


I don't understand what you mean.
If someone chooses not to vaccinate, they put themselves at much higher risk, but that's their choice.

In case you missed it, I'm a stronger supporter of mass vaccination than the Government.
I was upset when they pulled AZ, despite the fact that for most people the risk was far lower than exposure to COVID, I've also been complaining about holding back the boosters when the science has been clear they were needed for months.

Just because I support almost everyone getting vaccinated, and I strongly oppose the governments efforts to restrict access to vaccines doesn't mean I don't support someones right to refuse an unwanted medical treatment.

You don't have to look very far back in history to see the abuses governments (like Canada) do when they ignore peoples medical human rights.


I'm arguably the biggest proponent of vaccines on this forum, but I wholeheartedly reject that it is okay to violate human rights in this case. COVID19 simply isn't enough of a risk to vaccinated to justify it.


Finally your question really comes down to "should we allow people to make bad decisions".
Short answer, in a free society based on liberal principles, the answer is yes.

Really the only alternative to allowing people to make decisions, good and bad, is to have an authoritarian dictatorship, in which case it's simply other people making the decisions anyway.


----------



## zinfit

MyCatMittens said:


> I must be missing something, because I don't see that being the question?
> 
> My understanding is:
> 
> 1. We have a limited capacity in a publicly funded health care system.
> 2. The only proven method for significantly reducing severe outcomes is vaccination (or self isolating, which is still an option available to those who would like to take it).
> 3. Once the limited capacity is used up, we start cancelling other operations, which could impact others.
> 4. Those who do not vaccinate are at a much higher likelihood of severe outcomes.
> 
> So, unless we are willing to let people die (we aren't), limit health care to those who vaccinate (we don't), or find a magic fairy that can dramatically increase intensive care spaces... I'm not sure what solution you are proposing? Just let folks not vaccinate, fill up the ICU until capacity, and then put a closed sign out front? And screw anyone else who needs it?
> 
> I must be missing something because I just don't understand what the alternative is other than mass vaccination.


Well put. This reality is consistently being ignored by the enablers.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Well put. This reality is consistently being ignored by the enablers.


Human rights enablers? Darn.

You can't even articulate if or when it suddenly becomes not okay to violate someone's human rights. If there was a good enough reason, I'd support it, but right now, with the data we have we don't have one.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Human rights enablers? Darn.


Will be interested what the courts will say. I am betting on the mandates and vaccine passports.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Will be interested what the courts will say. I am betting on the mandates and vaccine passports.


The courts have been wrong before, and they'll likely be wrong again.
What is most telling is that you don't seem to have an opinion on what's right or wrong,
Vaccine kills 1 in a million, it's okay to force people, vaccine kills 1%, it's still okay, whatever the government decides right?

Remember, when they rounded up and executed children, the government and courts thought that was okay.
When they took undesirables and medically sterilized them, you know "for their own good", government was okay with that too.
And of course people like you "if the government says it's okay, it must be okay"


Remember this is the same government withholding vaccines for months, leading to the very situation we're in now.
Go back, I asked why they were holding them back 2 months ago.








so vaccines....?


Where can one buy tests to use at home? Even if $12 a test, I'm interested. This would be helpful for me to check before I visit my parents or other seniors. I looked on my Alberta.ca site for a list of approved vendors. https://debcosafety.ca She was really knowledgeable and the boxes...




www.canadianmoneyforum.com





Now it's so important that we vaccinate everyone, I call BS.
If it was so darn important to be fully vaccinated, they'd have released the boosters months ago.
They just need a villain or enemy to blame. Those who choose not to opt out (way less than 10% of the population) make a really convenient target.


----------



## Eder

zinfit said:


> Will be interested what the courts will say. I am betting on the mandates and vaccine passports.


Alberta has backed off requiring vaccines for health care workers allowing over 1500 people to come back to work. I think we are normally ahead of the curve in Canada...other provinces will have to follow.


----------



## damian13ster

When people claim that human rights abuse is okay because those in power say it is ok......
They have gone to far down the rabbit hole.


----------



## MyCatMittens

MrMatt said:


> I don't understand what you mean.
> If someone chooses not to vaccinate, they put themselves at much higher risk, but that's their choice.


I think this is where we diverge. I'm not sure how you figure that they only place themselves at risk? I see the limited hospital capacity as impacting others. Are you suggesting we would continue to deliver on other hospital priorities and let the unvaccinated die? Or the hospitals would triage? (in which case, doesn't just impact the individual). What about the impact on health care workers? Do you think they would want to continue working (and if they do, without any personal impact) with massive amounts of preventable deaths?



MrMatt said:


> I'm arguably the biggest proponent of vaccines on this forum, but I wholeheartedly reject that it is okay to violate human rights in this case. COVID19 simply isn't enough of a risk to vaccinated to justify it.


I guess we will have to agree to disagree here. 




MrMatt said:


> You don't have to look very far back in history to see the abuses governments (like Canada) do when they ignore peoples medical human rights.


I'm imagine this will work through the legal system. And then we will have a conclusion as to whether or not peoples medical human rights were violated. I think sometimes the collective good has to outweigh....



MrMatt said:


> Finally your question really comes down to "should we allow people to make bad decisions".
> Short answer, in a free society based on liberal principles, the answer is yes.


End of the day, if someone decides not to get vaccinated and it has absolutely no impact on the rest of society (read: health care workers, hospital capacity, economy), I would agree. Unfortunately, this just isn't the case here.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Almost every time the government does something for our own good, it's really for their own good.


----------



## damian13ster

So you are a proponent of eugenics?
Let's leave drug users out to die? No treatment if you drink? If you smoke? If you are fat?
Why not just move to private health care system and be done with it?

Do you really see nothing wrong with idea for person being 'low cost to healthcare system' as a prerequisite for the person to have human rights?


----------



## KaeJS

You know,

I read this thread and I read it some more and I refrain from posting more often than not. I'm sure most of you will appreciate my discipline to not post.

I may not always articulate what I say because I simply just don't have the time to explain or the care to defend my stance.

And I won't explain or defend my stance this time around either. But for all of you pro-vax, anti-human rights people... You've all got serious issues.

This thread is a wash.

"Get vaxxed for society/greater good"

What a joke...

I can't believe this thread is still going.
I can't believe human rights are even a debate.
I can't believe we are on a financial forum and none of you provaxxers can even do math or understand probability.

Go learn something. Preferably some common sense.


----------



## MyCatMittens

damian13ster said:


> So you are a proponent of eugenics?
> Let's leave drug users out to die? No treatment if you drink? If you smoke? If you are fat?
> Why not just move to private health care system and be done with it?


Are you seriously comparing someone who ends up in an ICU for refusing to take a vaccine with someone who suffers from alcoholism or drug addiction? If so, that angers me on several levels.

But anyways, no. I was responding to the "my body/my choice" argument. I could support the position on an individual basis (you decide not to get vaccinated, you end up in the hospital, it may or may not be fatal); however, this is the crux of the issue. It is a pandemic and the sheer numbers can easily result in overwhelming an ICU. It takes significant health care resources to provide 24x7 critical care. We don't have unlimited resources. I certainly don't want to end up in the ICU (where I could likely have easily prevented the visit) and take a spot from someone who couldn't easily have prevented theirs.

What exactly is your position when the ICU department gets overwhelmed? Closed sign? Screw over the other important people who need care you mentioned? (in addition to accident victims, heart attack patients, etc..etc.).


----------



## OptsyEagle

What I don't believe is how a person can read through a couple hundred posts of an argument and not observe that we are at that point again, where both groups are right. This happens you know. If you read through the posts, of each side (easy to do since they have each said their position over 40 or 50 times now), and do your best to set aside your own anger and bias, you will notice that both sides are absolutely correct.

The problem here is not that the unvaccinated have not been harmed by rules and obligations put upon them by the vaccinated. Because they have. It's obvious. The problem here is not that the vaccinated are not being harmed by what the unvaccinated are doing to their hospitals because of their refusal to vaccinate. Because they have. It's obvious.

The problem here is your inability to even consider that the other side has a reasonably valid point because you fear what that might mean to your own. Just agree to disagree and move on. Only a judge will be able to decide this one and when the judge does decide, I am positive that the losing side will not have received the justice they probably deserved, but we use judges in these cases because no matter how much you believe the right answer is obvious, it is not. There are two valid sides to this dispute. That is the problem.


----------



## sags

Unvaccinated people are 'variant factories,' infectious diseases expert says


Unvaccinated people do more than merely risk their own health. They're also a risk to everyone if they become infected with coronavirus, infectious disease specialists say. That's because the only source of new coronavirus variants is the body of an infected person.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## MrMatt

MyCatMittens said:


> End of the day, if someone decides not to get vaccinated and it has absolutely no impact on the rest of society (read: health care workers, hospital capacity, economy), I would agree. Unfortunately, this just isn't the case here.


In Canada people are allowed to make bad decisions, and we don't cut them off from services.




MyCatMittens said:


> Are you seriously comparing someone who ends up in an ICU for refusing to take a vaccine with someone who suffers from alcoholism or drug addiction? If so, that angers me on several levels.


No, of course not, they aren't even close to equal. One is preventable, one is not.

Firstly, they're in the ICU because they caught COVID. Realistically no matter how careful you are you can still get COVID. 

Regarding those with substance abuse disorders, it is possible to not consume those substances. It might be hard, it might require treatment (which is sorely lacking), but substance abuse is actually preventable.



> What exactly is your position when the ICU department gets overwhelmed? Closed sign? Screw over the other important people who need care you mentioned? (in addition to accident victims, heart attack patients, etc..etc.).


Well Triage and hope for the best, which is what we did before COVID, and we're doing during COVID.

We could do "moral judgements", but then it would be a huge mess. I think the unvaccinated person with a history of negative vaccine reactions is more "morally deserving", than the nth time drug abuser who simply won't stop using illegal drugs. 

Maybe the smoker who's been trashing their lungs is less deserving. Maybe the unvaccinated doctor who's saved lives during the pandemic vs the convicted murderer who got vaccinated?

What about First nations people who have a history of medical abuse from the government? 
Maybe one of those people who is a bit leery of government intervention because they sterilized them, or seized and executed their children?
Do they get to opt out of the vaccine, but retain priority ICU access?

Do you really want to go down the road of "morally deserving" of care? Let alone you've got to make quick decisions with a person who may not be able to communicate.


----------



## sags

I agree we should create another healthcare system to treat the unvaxxed and raise taxes on the rich to pay for it.


----------



## zinfit

I will leave it to the courts and accept their decision. Some believe our rights are absolute and aren't subject to restrictions or controls. The Charter clearly says our rights are "subject to such reasonable limits presribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society" Based on the extreme burden that the unvaccinated are placing on our hospitals and emergency services I am confidence the courts will uphold the mandates and the vaccine passports. The unvaccinated have exercised their freedom of choice and as we as all know their are consequences with decisions. When people made poor decisions I a not interested in their whining about the results of those lousy decisions. Let us be clear on one fact not one unvaccinated person has been denied access to hospital services and treatment for covid. So please quit playing this false suggestion.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> I will leave it to the courts and accept their decision.


Yeah, because courts ALWAYS get it right.



> Some believe are rights are absolute and aren't subject to restrictions or controls. The Charter clearly says our rights are "subject to such reasonable limits presribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society"


Yes, it has to be reasonable.



> Based on the extreme burden that the unvaccinated are placing on our hospitals and emergency services I am confidence the courts will uphold the mandates and the vaccine passports.


So if a few hundred unvaccinated people requiring hospital care is an "extreme burden", what about those who have unhealthy lifestyles?




> The unvaccinated have exercised their freedom of choice and as we as all know their are consequences with decisions. When people made poor decisions I a not interested in their whining about the results of those lousy decisions.


Okay, as long as we can cut off others so they can deal with their consequences.
You did a bit too much meth, into the gutter you go.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Yeah, because courts ALWAYS get it right.
> 
> 
> Yes, it has to be reasonable.
> 
> 
> So if a few hundred unvaccinated people requiring hospital care is an "extreme burden", what about those who have unhealthy lifestyles?
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, as long as we can cut off others so they can deal with their consequences.
> You did a bit too much meth, into the gutter you go.


Yes I will accept the decision of the courts. Not because they are always right . I accept their decisions because of a thing called " the rule of law" The remainder of your response implies that the unvaccinated are being denied access to health services. That is simply wrong.


----------



## MyCatMittens

MrMatt said:


> So if a few hundred unvaccinated people requiring hospital care is an "extreme burden", what about those who have unhealthy lifestyles?


Do you not think that the reason it has been somewhat manageable to date is because of the vaccine strategy that has been employed? Do you not think the number would be much higher otherwise? Here nor there, as you have clarified your strategy. Shift the burden to the health care workers, burn them out, and let anyone above the max capacity die.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Yes I will accept the decision of the courts. Not because they are always right . I accept their decisions because of a thing called " the rule of law" The remainder of your response implies that the unvaccinated are being denied access to health services. That is simply wrong.


Yeah, the courts that ruled women weren't people should decide. FYI, that's sarcasm.


They've been wrong before, and they'll be wrong again.
When they're wrong, we point it out and protest. It's our duty as citizens.


----------



## MrMatt

MyCatMittens said:


> Do you not think that the reason it has been somewhat manageable to date is because of the vaccine strategy that has been employed?


Yes. Of course. Why do you think I'm so pro-vaccination?



> Do you not think the number would be much higher otherwise?


Yes, and if the government didn't restrict access to vaccines it would be even lower.



> Here nor there, as you have clarified your strategy.


Absolutely, more vaccines for everyone, and holding them back in October was a MISTAKE. Blocking the use of AZ was a MISTAKE. The antivaxxers in government are part of the problem.



> Shift the burden to the health care workers, burn them out, and let anyone above the max capacity die.


You know what burns out health care workers, chronic understaffing, then firing thousands of them.








More than 3,000 unvaccinated health workers in B.C. on unpaid leave, Dix says | Globalnews.ca


B.C. health officials say 3,325 health-care workers, or about 2.6 per cent of the workforce, are not yet vaccinated and have been placed on unpaid leave.




globalnews.ca





People above the max capacity have always died.
Do you have any idea how many people suffer and die on waiting lists even before COVID?

You really seem confused, I'm the most pro-vax person on this board.
Why are you acting like I'm anti vax?

You have clearly formed a false correlation of human rights == anti vax.
It is possible to be pro-vax AND support human rights.


----------



## zinfit

Trump got something right when says the vaccines saved millions of lives and prevented a collapse of the heathcare system. Not a fan of Trump but I give him credit when credit is do.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Trump got something right when says the vaccines saved millions of lives and prevented a collapse of the heathcare system. Not a fan of Trump but I give him credit when credit is do.


Yes, and almost everyone should go get vaccinated. I've been saying this since the start.
I was saying it when the government started pulling vaccines from use.
I said it when they held back boosters 2 months ago (imagine if we all had current vaccinations for the holidays)


I don't think you should vote for Trump, but if you want, that's you're right and I support your right to do so. Even if I disagree with the choice you make. That's how rights work.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Yeah, the courts that ruled women weren't people should decide.
> 
> They've been wrong before, and they'll be wrong again.
> When they're wrong, we point it out and protest. It's our duty as citizens.


Hard to say the courts weren't a leader in breaking barriers and improving human rights. WE can live in a society with no rules or we can live in a society guided by the rule of law.


----------



## MyCatMittens

MrMatt said:


> You really seem confused, I'm the most pro-vax person on this board.
> Why are you acting like I'm anti vax?
> 
> You have clearly formed a false correlation of human rights == anti vax.
> It is possible to be pro-vax AND support human rights.


I didn't say you were anti-vax? I support human rights. When the courts decide that they have been violated, then I will agree. Until then, it is your opinion. My opinion is that there are limitations, and in this case, preventing collapse of the medical system is sufficient. You disagree. That's ok?


----------



## zinfit

MyCatMittens said:


> I didn't say you were anti-vax? I support human rights. When the courts decide that they have been violated, then I will agree. Until then, it is your opinion. My opinion is that there are limitations, and in this case, preventing collapse of the medical system is sufficient. You disagree. That's ok?


Most reasonable people would agree with your position.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Hard to say the courts weren't a leader in breaking barriers and improving human rights. WE can live in a society with no rules or we can live in a society guided by the rule of law.


Hard to say the courts were a leader in breaking barriers and improving human rights, since their role is only to interpret the law, not create it.


----------



## zinfit

The Charter grants me mobility rights including the right to leave or enter Canada. Trudeau created hotel prisons ,14 days quarantines , multiple tests and 1984 style monitoring for people who returned to Canada last spring. I though most of this was a big over reach and a severe limiriation on my rights and freedoms. I held my nose and adhered to this crap. Some including the major rights defenders here were advocating a total ban on all traveL. Strange how some people pick and choose the rights that they think are important. If I follow that logic we should quarantine all the unvaccinated to give our healthcare workers a break and to permit people to get knee replacements and other optional surgeries and treatments.


----------



## MrMatt

MyCatMittens said:


> I didn't say you were anti-vax? I support human rights. When the courts decide that they have been violated, then I will agree. Until then, it is your opinion. My opinion is that there are limitations, and in this case, preventing collapse of the medical system is sufficient. You disagree. That's ok?


You say you support human rights, but you don't support bodily autonomy.

My opinion is that consent is required for all medical procedures. This used to be a fundamental principle of medicine.

Consent must be freely given or it is not consent. This is also a fundamental principle of law.

The "collapse of the medical system" isn't being caused by unvaccinated people. It's being caused by a virus people are getting.
Look at Ontario.





Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca




Nearly 10 thousand are getting COVID every day, most of who have been vaccinated. 

At this point vaccinated people are getting COVID at a higher rate than unvaccinated people
Does this mean we can start blaming the problem on them for choosing to get vaccinated?


Of course you retreat back to "but it's a reasonable risk", but nobody seem to justify how much risk someone should take.
Is it really reasonable to ask anyone to take ANY risk, given that it seems that the current vaccine isn't effective anyway?


----------



## Beaver101

EXPLAINER: New easy-to-use COVID-19 pills come with a catch



> _Tom Murphy, The Associated Press
> Published Sunday, December 26, 2021 9:36AM EST
> 
> Newly infected COVID-19 patients have two new treatment options that can be taken at home.
> But that convenience comes with a catch: The pills have to be taken as soon as possible once symptoms appear.
> 
> *The challenge is getting tested, getting a prescription and starting the pills in a short window.*
> 
> U.S. regulators authorized Pfizer's pill, Paxlovid, and Merck's molnupiravir last week. In high-risk patients, both were shown to reduce the chances of hospitalization or death from COVID-19, although Pfizer's was much more effective.
> 
> A closer look:
> 
> *WHO SHOULD TAKE THESE PILLS?*
> The antiviral pills aren't for everyone who gets a positive test. *The pills are intended for those with mild or moderate COVID-19 who are more likely to become seriously ill. That includes older people and those with other health conditions like heart disease, cancer or diabetes that make them more vulnerable.* Both pills were OK'd for adults while Paxlovid is authorized for children ages 12 and older.
> 
> *WHO SHOULDN'T TAKE THESE PILLS?*
> Merck's molnupiravir is not authorized for children because it might interfere with bone growth. It also isn't recommended for pregnant women because of the potential for birth defects. Pfizer's pill isn't recommended for patients with severe kidney or liver problems. It also may not be the best option for some because it may interact with other prescriptions a patient is taking. The antiviral pills aren't authorized for people hospitalized with COVID-19.
> 
> ... _


 ... doesn't sound like the anti-vaxxers fit any of the criterias, let alone the short supply and prohibitive costs.

One being they aren't on the vulnerable list (too young, too fit, immune system too robust), ain't gonna to die plus all the side effects that come with it (treatment) meaning the belief of being an unacceptable gigantic lab-rat.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> The Charter grants me mobility rights including the right to leave or enter Canada. Trudeau created hotel prisons ,14 days quarantines , multiple tests and 1984 style monitoring for people who returned to Canada last spring. I though most of this was a big over reach and a severe limiriation on my rights and freedoms. I held my nose and adhered to this crap. Some including the major rights defenders here were advocating a total ban on all traveL. Strange how some people pick and choose the rights that they think are important. If I follow that logic we should quarantine all the unvaccinated to give our healthcare workers a break and to permit people to get knee replacements and other optional surgeries and treatments.


Being subject to a temporary, and scientifically valid quarantine for a short period of time is far less of an infringement than death or serious injury.

It's important to note that you were still allowed to enter and leave the country.

Since the vaccinated and unvaccinated appear equally likely to be carriers of COVID19, I don't see why you'd treat the two groups differently.
If you don't have an enemy, I guess you need to create one.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Hard to say the courts were a leader in breaking barriers and improving human rights, since their role is only to interpret the law, not create it.


The USA constitution created by Jefferson was built on the principle of equality. They started applying the law when they started attacking civil rights abuses. Before the Charter the prevailing principle was the supremacy of Parliament and the common law.


----------



## MyCatMittens

MrMatt said:


> You say you support human rights, but you don't support bodily autonomy.


I don't support absolutes. You do.




MrMatt said:


> The "collapse of the medical system" isn't being caused by unvaccinated people. It's being caused by a virus people are getting.
> Look at Ontario.
> At this point vaccinated people are getting COVID at a higher rate than unvaccinated people
> Does this mean we can start blaming the problem on them for choosing to get vaccinated?


In your same link - ICU:

Unvaccinated cases - 85
Partially vaccinated cases - 3
Fully vaccinated cases - 28

Hopefully as booster shots increase, the number of fully vaccinated will continue to drop in the general hospital numbers. 



MrMatt said:


> Of course you retreat back to "but it's a reasonable risk", but nobody seem to justify how much risk someone should take.
> Is it really reasonable to ask anyone to take ANY risk, given that it seems that the current vaccine isn't effective anyway?


I think the current vaccine strategy is pretty effective at severe outcomes? No? The ICU numbers above look pretty positive given the number of cases? I thought you were the most pro-vax person on this board?


----------



## damian13ster

MyCatMittens said:


> Are you seriously comparing someone who ends up in an ICU for refusing to take a vaccine with someone who suffers from alcoholism or drug addiction? If so, that angers me on several levels.
> 
> But anyways, no. I was responding to the "my body/my choice" argument. I could support the position on an individual basis (you decide not to get vaccinated, you end up in the hospital, it may or may not be fatal); however, this is the crux of the issue. It is a pandemic and the sheer numbers can easily result in overwhelming an ICU. It takes significant health care resources to provide 24x7 critical care. We don't have unlimited resources. I certainly don't want to end up in the ICU (where I could likely have easily prevented the visit) and take a spot from someone who couldn't easily have prevented theirs.
> 
> What exactly is your position when the ICU department gets overwhelmed? Closed sign? Screw over the other important people who need care you mentioned? (in addition to accident victims, heart attack patients, etc..etc.).


Easy. 
You can't set a precedent when individual's cost to healthcare system determines whether the individual is worthy of human rights or not - that's my position.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> I will leave it to the courts and accept their decision. Some believe our rights are absolute and aren't subject to restrictions or controls. The Charter clearly says our rights are "subject to such reasonable limits presribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society" Based on the extreme burden that the unvaccinated are placing on our hospitals and emergency services I am confidence the courts will uphold the mandates and the vaccine passports. The unvaccinated have exercised their freedom of choice and as we as all know their are consequences with decisions. When people made poor decisions I a not interested in their whining about the results of those lousy decisions. Let us be clear on one fact not one unvaccinated person has been denied access to hospital services and treatment for covid. So please quit playing this false suggestion.


Charter also says government can just screw the rights, without justification. Section 33.

Courts don't always get it right.

Concentration camps were legal.
Treatment of Uylghurs is legal.
Residential schools were legal
Forced sterilizations were legal.

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it is moral or ethical, or right.

Humans are supposed to have conscience and ethics. Not just state 'it must be right because the abusers say it is right'


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> Easy.
> You can't set a precedent when individual's cost to healthcare system determines whether the individual is worthy of human rights or not - that's my position.


No one is denying you or your anti-vaxxers access to healthcare. Please drop that bogus issue.


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> Charter also says government can just screw the rights, without justification. Section 33.
> 
> Courts don't always get it right.
> 
> Concentration camps were legal.
> Treatment of Uylghurs is legal.
> Residential schools were legal
> Forced sterilizations were legal.
> 
> Just because something is legal doesn't mean it is moral or ethical, or right.
> 
> Humans are supposed to have conscience and ethics. Not just state 'it must be right because the abusers say it is right'


Yes you don't like court decisions, you don't like government decisions so you do what you want and ignore both of these sources of law. Interesting position.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Yes you don't like court decisions, you don't like government decisions so you do what you want and ignore both of these sources of law. Interesting position.


I'm not saying to do what you want, I am saying that we should call them out when they're wrong.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> No one is denying you or your anti-vaxxers access to healthcare. Please drop that bogus issue.


They are using likelihood of needing healthcare system as an excuse to abuse human rights.

Just because you are more likely to use healthcare system doesn't mean you don't deserve human rights.

I can bet you use healthcare system more than I do, yet it doesn't give me a right to abuse you.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> Yes you don't like court decisions, you don't like government decisions so you do what you want and ignore both of these sources of law. Interesting position.


Yes, when human rights are being abused, it is a responsibility of any moral, ethical, and responsible citizen to say 'no'.
The fact that majority in Canada see it as 'interesting' position just shows how low the society has fallen


----------



## Spudd

MrMatt said:


> Since the vaccinated and unvaccinated appear equally likely to be carriers of COVID19, I don't see why you'd treat the two groups differently.


As MyCatMittens has tried to explain multiple times, the unvaccinated are disproportionately likely to get severely ill from the virus and take up room in the hospital. This is even more important now as Omicron is spreading like wildfire and I can only imagine that healthcare staffing might start to be impacted by staff testing positive and needing to self-isolate, therefore being unable to work.

By having vaccine passports, you prevent the people most at risk of severe illness from spending time in higher-risk areas such as restaurants, and hopefully thereby prevent them from getting sick. Of course there's no guarantee they'll avoid getting the virus, but why allow them to spend time in an environment that's been shown to be high risk of viral spread when the consequences for them and the health-care system are bad if they do catch the bug? It's like asking them to wear their seat belt on the highway.


----------



## MyCatMittens

damian13ster said:


> Yes, when human rights are being abused, it is a responsibility of any moral, ethical, and responsible citizen to say 'no'.
> The fact that majority in Canada see it as 'interesting' position just shows how low the society has fallen


From the BC Office of the Human Rights Commissioner:

"In my view, a person who chooses not to get vaccinated as a matter of personal preference - especially where that choice is based on misinformation of misunderstandings of scientific information - does not have grounds for a human rights complaint against a duty bearer implementing a vaccine status policy".

Your opinion that "human rights are being abused" will be tested. There may be cases where that is true - I guess the extent of it remains to be seen.


----------



## zinfit

Spudd said:


> As MyCatMittens has tried to explain multiple times, the unvaccinated are disproportionately likely to get severely ill from the virus and take up room in the hospital. This is even more important now as Omicron is spreading like wildfire and I can only imagine that healthcare staffing might start to be impacted by staff testing positive and needing to self-isolate, therefore being unable to work.
> 
> By having vaccine passports, you prevent the people most at risk of severe illness from spending time in higher-risk areas such as restaurants, and hopefully thereby prevent them from getting sick. Of course there's no guarantee they'll avoid getting the virus, but why allow them to spend time in an environment that's been shown to be high risk of viral spread when the consequences for them and the health-care system are bad if they do catch the bug? It's like asking them to wear their seat belt on the highway.


I have a lot of difficulty trying to understand this guy. No matter how many times people point the high percentage of unvaccinated taking up value able hospital space he keeps using a meaningless slogan or statement. The fact of the unvaccinated causing major problems in heathcare is staring him in the eyes and he seems to be totally blind. And keeps suggesting the falsehood that the anti-vaxxers are being denied healthcare. He doesn't seem to understand that their decisions are also impairing the healthcare of others. And last but not least their decisions are based on false information. Four strikes and you should be out.


----------



## damian13ster

MyCatMittens said:


> From the BC Office of the Human Rights Commissioner:
> 
> "In my view, a person who chooses not to get vaccinated as a matter of personal preference - especially where that choice is based on misinformation of misunderstandings of scientific information - does not have grounds for a human rights complaint against a duty bearer implementing a vaccine status policy".
> 
> Your opinion that "human rights are being abused" will be tested. There may be cases where that is true - I guess the extent of it remains to be seen.


Yes, in the opinion of German politicians holocaust wasn't human rights abuse - simply the abused didn't deserve the rights.
Chinese government doesn't believe Uyghurs are abused - they simply don't deserve human rights.
Canadian government didn't believe first nations people were abuse - they simply don't deserve human rights
Canadian government didn't believe women were abused - they simply didn't deserve human rights.

Governments and legal systems repeatedly got it wrong on human rights.
Would you be OK with holocaust, residential schools, forced sterilizations because government and legal system said it is ok?

We are going in circles - just because abusers say they are justified in abusing, doesn't make it so.
It was true in the past, it is true in the present, and it will be true in the future.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> I have a lot of difficulty trying to understand this guy. No matter how many times people point the high percentage of unvaccinated taking up value able hospital space he keeps using a meaningless slogan or statement. The fact of the unvaccinated causing major problems in heathcare is staring him in the eyes and he seems to be totally blind. And keeps suggesting the falsehood that the anti-vaxxers are being denied healthcare. He doesn't seem to understand that their decisions are also impairing the healthcare of others. And last but not least their decisions are based on false information. Four strikes and you should be out.


Clearly, you have a lot of difficulty understanding written text.

Yes, unvaccinated take high percentage of Delta cases in ICU (tiny percentage of total numbers in ICU).
There are one of the major problems in health care system.
Never did I say they were denied healthcare - you completely made that up.
Yes, decisions of anyone who ends up in hospital impair healthcare of others. 
Yes, majority of mistakes people make in their lifestyle are based on false information or ignoring information.

Other than your made up claim - I don't dispute any of that.

I repeat the stance very clearly:

Just because you are higher cost to healthcare system doesn't mean you don't deserve human rights.


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> Clearly, you have a lot of difficulty understanding written text.
> 
> Yes, unvaccinated take high percentage of Delta cases in ICU (tiny percentage of total numbers in ICU).
> There are one of the major problems in health care system.
> Never did I say they were denied healthcare - you completely made that up.
> Yes, decisions of anyone who ends up in hospital impair healthcare of others.
> Yes, majority of mistakes people make in their lifestyle are based on false information or ignoring information.
> 
> Other than your made up claim - I don't dispute any of that.
> 
> I repeat the stance very clearly:
> 
> Just because you are higher cost to healthcare system doesn't mean you don't deserve human rights.


you are losing it my comments were in response to McNutt. I apologize for your confusion.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> you are losing it my comments were in response to McNutt. I apologize for your confusion.


My bad


----------



## MrMatt

MyCatMittens said:


> From the BC Office of the Human Rights Commissioner:
> 
> "In my view, a person who chooses not to get vaccinated as a matter of personal preference - especially where that choice is based on misinformation of misunderstandings of scientific information - does not have grounds for a human rights complaint against a duty bearer implementing a vaccine status policy".


I completely agree.

Similarly someone who chooses not to get vaccinated as a matter of personal health, especially when that choice is based on information and a proper understanding of scientific information clearly DOES have grounds for a human rights complaint.

You also have to understand that when the government is spreading misinformation, or blocking information many people did not provide informed consent. This is ALSO a human rights violation.



> Your opinion that "human rights are being abused" will be tested. There may be cases where that is true - I guess the extent of it remains to be seen.


There absolutely are, and I hope the courts come back with a strong message against these policies.
I got informed before I took my shot, but many sites providing injections were very "lax" with providing appropriate information on the risks.


----------



## MyCatMittens

MrMatt said:


> There absolutely are, and I hope the courts come back with a strong message against these policies.
> I got informed before I took my shot, but many sites providing injections were very "lax" with providing appropriate information on the risks.


Thanks MrMatt. Appreciate the civil discussion. All the best in the new year.


----------



## ian

I never realized how many medical experts and epi specialists we had on this forum. 

Perhaps some will offer their services to health care facilities.


----------



## cainvest

ian said:


> I never realized how many medical experts and epi specialists we had on this forum.


Yup, there is not shortage of armchair experts on the internet that's for sure. Many are not focused on solving problems just arguing where to assign the blame.


----------



## KaeJS

Armchair experts?

You mean people that understand probability and statistics?

It seems like most of the vaxxed have never taken an advanced mathematics course or learned the odds at a casino. They are probably all still hitting the slot machines and paying for LottoMax thinking they will be the 1 in 27 million...


----------



## Beaver101

KaeJS said:


> Armchair experts?
> 
> You mean *people that understand probability and statistics?*


 ... *like the unvaxxeds and their enablers*, correct? LMAO.



> It seems like most of the vaxxed have never taken an advanced mathematics course or learned the odds at a casino. They are probably all still hitting the slot machines and paying for LottoMax thinking they will be the 1 in 27 million...


 ... care to tell that to the Ontario Covid's Science Advisory Table guys this and see what they say to you, if not ask you to turn around and make their mark on your behind.


----------



## damian13ster

Disclaimer: relaying the message - didn't look at source data


----------



## kcowan2000

MyCatMittens said:


> ...End of the day, if someone decides not to get vaccinated and it has absolutely no impact on the rest of society (read: health care workers, hospital capacity, economy), I would agree. Unfortunately, this just isn't the case here.


the direct parallel is compulsory seat belts


----------



## sags

A person may have the right to own a gun, but they have no individual right to endanger others with it.

I view it the same with covid and vaccines. The un-vaccinated have no individual right to endanger people with serious illness.

People have to wear a helmet to ride a motorcycle or bicycle, even if they don't want to and it breaches their personal liberty.

There are many other examples of individual rights being fettered for the good of society.

A DUI ride program is a breach of the right of search and seizure, but we have laws that permit it for the greater good of society.

Laws that infringe on personal liberty is the price of entry to live with others in a society.


----------



## Eder

Good read by a radiologist.









'Reality must trump theory': Anecdotes of a more mild COVID-19 - BC News


While health officials across Canada attempt to “buy time” with restrictions and lockdowns to learn more about the Omicron variant, encouraging anecdotes from the frontlines are coming in.



www.castanet.net


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Disclaimer: relaying the message - didn't look at source data
> 
> View attachment 22554


I think that chart suggests that the definition of "full vaxx" likely includes people who's vaccines have "run out".
Which was expected.. that's why we have boosters for things like tetanus.

Also my anecdotal experience is "fully vaxxed" people take far fewer precautions than most.


----------



## MrMatt

kcowan2000 said:


> the direct parallel is compulsory seat belts


Putting on a seatbelt isn't going to hurt you.

The very act of taking the vaccine does pose a risk.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Putting on a seatbelt isn't going to hurt you.


It could ... a very small chance you could get trapped in the car when you need to get out.


----------



## sags

Eder said:


> Good read by a radiologist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Reality must trump theory': Anecdotes of a more mild COVID-19 - BC News
> 
> 
> While health officials across Canada attempt to “buy time” with restrictions and lockdowns to learn more about the Omicron variant, encouraging anecdotes from the frontlines are coming in.
> 
> 
> 
> www.castanet.net


An excellent post and why I am more interested in what the doctors and nurses who actually treat the covid patients are saying, instead of politicians and health appointees, and armchair or Youtube "experts".

Noteworthy that the radiologist and ER docs all agree that the vaccinated are greatly protected against serious symptoms, while the un-vaccinated are at substantial risk of severe infection.

_Another common observation was that no one had recently admitted a patient to hospital who had been boosted or fully vaccinated. Those who have been sick enough to be admitted to hospital in the most recent wave have been unvaccinated patients._

The radiologist has a Twitter feed as well. He is saying.......loud and clear......vaccinations, vaccinations, vaccinations.

_ It is desperately important that people get vaccinated. The vaccines are protecting people from severe disease. Those who are the sickest, whether it be from Omicron or Delta are unvaccinated. 

If you believe that Omicron is a milder variant, that seems to be true only for the vaccinated. For the unvaccinated, let me tell you that from an imaging point of view, it still results in a severe pneumonia. Don't take any chances. Again, get vaccinated and get boosted. _


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475094747513561090


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> It could ... a very small chance you could get trapped in the car when you need to get out.


yes, but that pales compared to the risk of someone putting of a Youtube clip of "dummy tried to get out of car without undoing seatbelt"

I accept that it's a rough parallel, but wearing a seatbelt isn't a human rights violation.

Also putting on the seatbelt doesn't increase risk, it's only in the situation where you've already been in an accident.


----------



## sags

Why are some posters so interested in patting people on the back and saying......don't concern yourself with getting a vaccination because it is your right ?


----------



## damian13ster

Because it is your right to refuse medical procedure.
You shouldn't exercise the right, but it is your right.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> I think that chart suggests that the definition of "full vaxx" likely includes people who's vaccines have "run out".
> Which was expected.. that's why we have boosters for things like tetanus.
> 
> Also my anecdotal experience is "fully vaxxed" people take far fewer precautions than most.


It can also suggest that by being effective against alpha and beta, lower fraction of people were able to acquire natural immunity, That's all speculation though - the one know fact is that it is relatively useless against Omicron


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> It can also suggest that by being effective against alpha and beta, lower fraction of people were able to acquire natural immunity, That's all speculation though - the one know fact is that it is relatively useless against Omicron


Actually we know that boosters do seem to have some effect.
I would suggest that it's simply that vaccines taken half a year ago aren't very effective. I wonder why some people were calling for boosters in October, instead of letting millions of doses sit on the shelf.

Back in mid2020 they were suggesting that we would need frequent boosters, some discussions were as short as 4 months, annually with the flu shot was seen as a somewhat faint hope.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> Because it is your right to refuse medical procedure.
> You shouldn't exercise the right, but it is your right.


Easy for you to say as you walk away feeling no responsibility or obligation for the results you enable.

I say we have to pull people down from the bridge before they jump, not stand there telling them they have the right to jump.


----------



## damian13ster

Human rights abuse have effect on all of us.
Today it might not be your rights being abused, but if you don't speak up when human rights are being abused and when others are being oppressed, you are likely to be next.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Who are you kidding. Sounds just like a MrMatt - twists and spews-o-matic in your case.


----------



## sags

Maybe during a global pandemic isn't the time to be worrying about individual rights to disregard the medical advice.

There will be plenty of time for that after the pandemic is passed, assuming the virus doesn't mutate into something worse.

Debating individual human rights now is like participating in a discussion on nuclear energy and talking about baking chocolate donuts.

It is just a tad out of the context of discussion.


----------



## damian13ster

You are an idiot - luckily you can't be discriminated for that. 
Same of those who make poor medical decisions.

Human rights are paramount, they are non-negotiable. They are the only thing that is separating us from animals. 
You can't abuse others because of your own fear. You can't abuse others just because they make different decisions than you do. Just because you are a coward and find yourself a scapegoats for all the problems doesn't mean you can be an oppressor.


----------



## damian13ster

There should always be reaction to human rights abuse
We should have reacted to human abuse with nazis
We should have reacted to canadian government during residential schools
We shouldn't justify human rights being stripped from muslims by chinese
And we need to react when people like sags are calling for abuse as well


----------



## KaeJS

sags said:


> Easy for you to say as you walk away feeling no responsibility or obligation for the results you enable.
> 
> I say we have to pull people down from the bridge before they jump, not stand there telling them they have the right to jump.


Euthanasia is a thing...


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Putting on a seatbelt isn't going to hurt you.
> 
> The very act of taking the vaccine does pose a risk.


I have been trying to find the risk from taking Moderna or Pfizer vaccines. Alberta Health site doesn't really show any real risk after administering 8 million doses. They have about 20,000 adverse effects that have been identifyied after a vaccination. They track all of these regardless of whether they are related to the vaccination. Once the Astrazenca vaccine is eliminated I don't see any serious negative. They might be one of the safest vaccines ever developed.


----------



## damian13ster

The risk associated with mRNA vaccines is death:








Myocarditis-induced Sudden Death after BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 Vaccination in Korea: Case Report Focusing on Histopathological Findings - PubMed


We present autopsy findings of a 22-year-old man who developed chest pain 5 days after the first dose of the BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine and died 7 hours later. Histological examination of the heart revealed isolated atrial myocarditis, with neutrophil and histiocyte predominance. Immunohistochemical...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov












Two die in Japan after shots from suspended Moderna vaccines - Japan govt


Two people died after receiving Moderna Inc COVID-19 vaccine shots that were among lots later suspended following the discovery of contaminants, Japan's health ministry said on Saturday.




www.reuters.com












New Zealand reports death of woman after Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine


New Zealand reported its first recorded death linked to U.S. drugmaker Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine, the health ministry said on Monday, after a woman suffered a rare side-effect leading to inflammation of the heart muscle.




www.ctvnews.ca












Seventeen-year-old Washington female dies from heart attack weeks after receiving second Pfizer vaccination


VAERS data indicates three Washington deaths following COVID-19 vaccination.




www.clarkcountytoday.com





Chances are low, but the question posed was simple. What risk would you find acceptable. At what risk do you force people to participate?


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> An excellent post and why I am more interested in what the doctors and nurses who actually treat the covid patients are saying, instead of politicians and health appointees, and armchair or Youtube "experts".
> 
> Noteworthy that the radiologist and ER docs all agree that the vaccinated are greatly protected against serious symptoms, while the un-vaccinated are at substantial risk of severe infection.
> 
> _Another common observation was that no one had recently admitted a patient to hospital who had been boosted or fully vaccinated. Those who have been sick enough to be admitted to hospital in the most recent wave have been unvaccinated patients._
> 
> The radiologist has a Twitter feed as well. He is saying.......loud and clear......vaccinations, vaccinations, vaccinations.
> 
> _ It is desperately important that people get vaccinated. The vaccines are protecting people from severe disease. Those who are the sickest, whether it be from Omicron or Delta are unvaccinated.
> 
> If you believe that Omicron is a milder variant, that seems to be true only for the vaccinated. For the unvaccinated, let me tell you that from an imaging point of view, it still results in a severe pneumonia. Don't take any chances. Again, get vaccinated and get boosted. _
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475094747513561090


I Guess the enablers and deniers don't read things like this. It doesn't fit with their talking points.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> I have been trying to find the risk from taking Moderna or Pfizer vaccines.


Hmm, I've heard of a lot of adverse effects, many serious.
I wonder if the censorship or threats of it are making it hard for you to get the information.



> Alberta Health site doesn't really show any real risk after administering 8 million doses. They have about 20,000 adverse effects that have been identifyied after a vaccination. They track all of these regardless of whether they are related to the vaccination. Once the Astrazenca vaccine is eliminated I don't see any serious negative. They might be one of the safest vaccines ever developed.


I agree, which is why I think almost everyone should get vaccinated.
I don't even think AZ was all that bad, definitely not deserving of the publicity and fearmongering that got it pulled despite being more than safe enough to use.

I think they're being incredibly careful to control the narrative around the Moderna & Pfizer vaccines, and that concerns me. 

But again, I chose, freely with informed consent to take AZ & Pfizer, I believe I'm much more informed than the general population on the positive and negative impacts of the vaccines, and for myself it's a no-brainer to get vaccinated.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Chances are low, but the question posed was simple. What risk would you find acceptable. At what risk do you force people to participate?


They'll never take a position on that. They aren't willing to admit that their policies might end up being a literal death sentence to someone.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> I Guess the enablers and deniers don't read things like this. It doesn't fit with their talking points.


Read it. He never indicated he did any imaging of Omicron patients. He said that during current wave he just did 4 a day vs 60 a day, but never indicated whether they were Omicron or Delta.
he literally didn't give a single scientific evidence in the entire thread.

Are you seriously basing your knowledge of Omicron on radiologist that had no contact with it?

And not on over month- long experience with it of entire health care system in multiple countries across 3 continents?


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> The risk associated with mRNA vaccines is death:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Myocarditis-induced Sudden Death after BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 Vaccination in Korea: Case Report Focusing on Histopathological Findings - PubMed
> 
> 
> We present autopsy findings of a 22-year-old man who developed chest pain 5 days after the first dose of the BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine and died 7 hours later. Histological examination of the heart revealed isolated atrial myocarditis, with neutrophil and histiocyte predominance. Immunohistochemical...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two die in Japan after shots from suspended Moderna vaccines - Japan govt
> 
> 
> Two people died after receiving Moderna Inc COVID-19 vaccine shots that were among lots later suspended following the discovery of contaminants, Japan's health ministry said on Saturday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Zealand reports death of woman after Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine
> 
> 
> New Zealand reported its first recorded death linked to U.S. drugmaker Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine, the health ministry said on Monday, after a woman suffered a rare side-effect leading to inflammation of the heart muscle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seventeen-year-old Washington female dies from heart attack weeks after receiving second Pfizer vaccination
> 
> 
> VAERS data indicates three Washington deaths following COVID-19 vaccination.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.clarkcountytoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chances are low, but the question posed was simple. What risk would you find acceptable. At what risk do you force people to participate?


how many billion doses administered so far and may-be 4 deaths? one of the big risks is heart attack deaths for people who get covid. A much bigger risk.


----------



## damian13ster

Then give the number.
How many people are you willing to kill by violating their human right and mandating the medical procedure?
Where is your red line?


----------



## KaeJS

zinfit said:


> how many billion doses administered so far and may-be 4 deaths? one of the big risks is heart attack deaths for people who get covid. A much bigger risk.


You don't know the long term risks.

Imagine everyone who takes the vaccine ends up reducing their life longevity by a decade due to early onset heart issues?

Have fun trying to get the data for that when it's like up to 40, 50 years away...


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> How many people are you willing to kill by violating their human right and mandating the medical procedure?


Did I miss an update .. is the government giving shots to people in the sleep now without them knowing?


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> Did I miss an update .. is the government giving shots to people in the sleep now without them knowing?


Coercive control is a type of force, and it is illegal.
If I tell you to do something, or I will lock you up, or will starve your family, I am breaking the law.

Are you seriously trying to argue that coercion =/= force? - Seriously? You want to go down that path?

How many people are you willing to kill by violating their human right and using coercive control/mandates to force a medical procedure? - why is that question so hard to answer for those who want to abuse human rights?

We know zinfit would be willing to kill at least 4. Where is the red line?
Where is it for you cainvest?


----------



## zinfit

KaeJS said:


> You don't know the long term risks.
> 
> Imagine everyone who takes the vaccine ends up reducing their life longevity by a decade due to early onset heart issues?
> 
> Have fun trying to get the data for that when it's like up to 40, 50 years away...
> [/QUOTE





KaeJS said:


> You don't know the long term risks.
> 
> Imagine everyone who takes the vaccine ends up reducing their life longevity by a decade due to early onset heart issues?
> 
> Have fun trying to get the data for that when it's like up to 40, 50 years away...


YES and they get into the hospital and take numerous medications were the same could be said. You could start with new anti-viral treatments. Best strategy for people who worry about such things is eat only natural foods, have everything delivered to your doorstep, don't drink tap water, and stay at home and don't allow anyone into your home and get on the internet and connect to likeminded people who let fear take control of their lives. Freedom takes everyone down their own paths.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> YES and they get into the hospital and take numerous medications were the same could be said. You could start with new anti-viral treatments. Best strategy for people who worry about such things is eat only natural foods, have everything delivered to your doorstep, don't drink tap water, and stay at home and don't allow anyone into your home and get on the internet and connect to likeminded people who let fear take control of their lives. Freedom takes everyone down their own paths.


They do it by choice. They have a right to refuse or accept treatment without any consequences. They aren't coerced to it.


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> They do it by choice. They have a right to refuse or accept treatment without any consequences. They aren't coerced to it.


They have made their own choice. By the way don't go outside in the summer. In a normal year Google says 41 people get struck by lightening and die in the USA. I am sure Canada has a similar risk.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Coercive control is a type of force, and it is illegal.
> If I tell you to do something, or I will lock you up, or will starve your family, I am breaking the law.


Haven't they always done that? People get locked up only "suspected" of a crime. 



damian13ster said:


> Are you seriously trying to argue that coercion =/= force? - Seriously? You want to go down that path?


Sure it's used but is it breaking a persons rights?


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> They have made their own choice. By the way don't go outside in the summer. In a normal year Google says 41 people get struck by lightening and die in the USA. I am sure Canada has a similar risk.


No, they made choice under coercive force. The coercive force is illegal. The coercive force violates human rights.

And you still don't get the point.
I will make a choice, a choice without coercion, to go outside KNOWING the risks. You have no right to abuse human rights based on the choice. You have no right to either force people outside or force them to stay inside.

That's the equivalent. You telling people they have to go outside into the thunderstorm, or else you will strip them of their means to live, just because the risk of them being struck by lightning is so low.


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> Haven't they always done that? People get locked up only "suspected" of a crime.
> 
> 
> Sure it's used but is it breaking a persons rights?


Yes. Ability to refuse medical treatment or intervention is a human right.

Patients’ decisions must always be free and informed.

Consent is free if the patient gives it voluntarily. *This means the patient isn’t forced or pressured.*






Consent: A guide for Canadian physicians


In the medical context and as the law on consent to medical treatment has evolved, it has become a basic accepted principle that "every human being of adult years and of sound mind has the right to determine what shall be done with his or her own body."




www.cmpa-acpm.ca






So again, how many people are you willing to kill by abusing their human rights, to refuse medical treatment or intervention. To abuse their right to give consent that isn't forced or pressured? How many people are you willing to kill?


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Yes.


You say yes but I gather the courts say no?


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> You say yes but I gather the courts say no?


I am not aware of any concluded court cases yet. There were no injunctions, but don't believe there were any verdicts yet. Nevertheless - this is completely irrelevant.

The courts said residential schools, abuse of uyghurs, forced sterilizations, concentration camps were legal.
Canadian government built into the charter of rights and freedoms ability to abuse human rights - namely Section 1 if they feel they are justified, or section 33 if they don't feel they are justified.

Just because concentration camps, residential schools , or forced sterilizations were legal doesn't make them any less evil.

Human rights abuse is amoral and unethical even if the abusers say it is legal.

Why is that question so hard to answer for you? How many people are you willing to kill by coercing them and removing their right to give informed consent to medical intervention?


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> I am not aware of any concluded court cases yet. There were no injunctions, but don't believe there were any verdicts yet. Nevertheless - this is completely irrelevant.


I don't see how it is irrelevant, the courts are the ones who decide such things. Is there a better system to tackle such a task? Should we just base all human rights decisions on what your specific thoughts are?


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> I don't see how it is irrelevant, the courts are the ones who decide such things. Is there a better system to tackle such a task? Should we just base all human rights decisions on what your specific thoughts are?


Again, not aware of any cases that reached verdict.

There are multiple documented human rights. The one that I have quoted above is one of them.
There is no argument whatsoever that the human right is being abused.
Even most extremist lunatic who cheers on government to start death camps for those who made different choice has to acknowledge there is pressure; therefore, the consent is not voluntary.

The question is not whether human rights are broken. The question is whether human rights are broken legally.
Personally, whether human rights are broken legally or not is of little consequence for me. The fact is that human rights, that are spelled out, are being broken.

Now, I do not believe there is justification for breaking human rights. You can have different opinion. That is fine.
So the question is: at what risk/reward of medical procedure for which human rights are being broken (legally or not) you would not be comfortable with breaking the human right (you can call it waiving, omitting, suspending, whatever).

Are you fine with forcing/coercing/pressuring medical intervention on people if it carries 1/1,000,000 risk? How about 1/100,000? 1/10,000, 1/1,000?
Where is your red line? Where do you not feel comfortable with breaking/suspending/omitting/ignoring the human right to refuse medical procedure?


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Again, not aware of any cases that reached verdict.


Well then we'll just have to wait until they do. If it turns out they are not doing anything illegal they can continue on despite your personal objection.


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> Well then we'll just have to wait until they do. If it turns out they are not doing anything illegal they can continue on despite your personal objection.


Oh, I am aware of that. That has always been the case. In Nazi Germany, in Canada, in China, in other banana republics. 
I will go further. A friendly wager that this dispute will never actually be resolved in court. It will be dragged on by the government and legal system for years, until the policy in question is actually dropped, and then the court will drop the case as well, in order not to give verdict and not to set precedent. 
That's precisely what has happened for example with Bill C-10 in Alberta.
By not setting precedent, the abuse will be allowed again, and a time before dispute reaches verdict in court will be reset. Rinse and repeat.
Doesn't mean one shouldn't object to it.

At what amount of people killed by it would you also have personal objection as well?

1/100? 1/1,000? 1/10,000? 1/100,000?

At what point would your ethics also have you personally object to removing people's right to give voluntary consent to medical consent?


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Oh, I am aware of that. That has always been the case.


Good ... so we wait and see.


----------



## damian13ster

Why don't you answer the question? Your personal objections have nothing to do with a legal case.
At what point would you personally object to the removal/suspensions/omission/breaking of person's right to give voluntary consent to medical procedure?

Why do you find that question so troubling?


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Why don't you answer the question? Your personal objections have nothing to do with a legal case.


Of course is has to do with the legal case, if it is illegal they can't do it.


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> Of course is has to do with the legal case, if it is illegal they can't do it.


Death camps were legal. You wouldn't personally object to them either?
Residential schools were legal. You wouldn't personally object to them either?
Forced sterilizations were legal. You wouldn't personally object to them either?

Your moral code is inherently attached to legal system of any given country? There is not a single line that you would not cross if you were told it is legal? I am simply asking. Where is that line in this case?


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Your moral code is inherently attached to legal system of any given country?


In a general sense, yes as I abide by the laws of the country I'm in. Do I agree with all the laws, maybe or maybe not but I'm not looking for all laws to align with my personal opinions ... that would be delusional.


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> In a general sense, yes as I abide by the laws of the country I'm in. Do I agree with all the laws, maybe or maybe not but I'm not looking for all laws to align with my personal opinions ... that would be delusional.


That's why the question is not about laws. The question is about your personal opinion.

To quote:
"At what point would you *personally object* to the removal/suspensions/omission/breaking of person's right to give voluntary consent to medical procedure?"


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> That's why the question is not about laws. The question is about your personal opinion.
> 
> To quote:
> "At what point would you *personally object* to the removal/suspensions/omission/breaking of person's right to give voluntary consent to medical procedure?"


But it is about laws as we don't yet know if it breaks a persons rights or not until the courts decide. My personal opinion on the matter won't change anything that's going on.


----------



## damian13ster

Notice I used 'removal/suspensions/omission/breaking" if you are not comfortable with 'breaking'
The question is irrelevant to the court cases that will never actually see a verdict.

Imagine it is kind of the same thing that Germans had after Nuremberg Laws were passed.
The laws were legal, real, implemented, and followed.
It would be reassuring to know there are people in society that did oppose the laws or at least some metric in it.
Just to know not entire country is deprived and fine with human rights being 'removed/suspended/omitted/broken'.
And maybe if they knew there is more people like them, then they would have acted on it and stop the progress of the removal/suspensions/omission/breaking. History could have been rewritten.



"At what point would you *personally object* to the removal/suspensions/omission of person's right to give voluntary consent to medical procedure?"

There, I removed the 'breaking' just to make you feel more comfortable.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> There, I removed the 'breaking' just to make you feel more comfortable.


Doesn't matter what you remove, it's up to the courts to decide, not me.


----------



## sags

The courts have or will decide the delicate balance of individual versus society rights.

If vaccines can be required in some areas of society ?

If employees have the right not to work with un-vaccinated co-workers ?

If employers have the responsibility and liability of providing a safe workplace ?


----------



## sags

We just had an election and Canadians supported the current government's policies on spending and restrictions during the pandemic.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> The courts have or will decide the delicate balance of individual versus society rights.
> 
> If vaccines can be required in some areas of society ?
> 
> If employees have the right not to work with un-vaccinated co-workers ?
> 
> If employers have the responsibility and liability of providing a safe workplace ?


 ... the answer to the 3rd question is already in place. That's why employers (for those who are able to) have implemented (and will be extending) the WAH/WFRH (work at home/work from home) policy for its employees so that some of them on this forum can go (and continuing going) whining, spewing, and trolling 24/7 whilst claiming to be "working" "so hard" and some.

With respect to the 2nd question, I don't think employers have the guts to seek the court on a ruling. This would mean it would be up to the employee to seek its own remedy or have its own answer to the question - would you rather have the money or your life? I know I wouldn't be able to work next to a leper.

Vaccine mandates is one of the answer to question 1. Since antivaxxers, their enablers/supporters/regretters/wannabees have so much energy during a pandemic, I'll leave it for them to fight for their rights or against the "mandates" all the way to the Supreme Court. Good luck.


----------



## damian13ster

damian13ster said:


> Notice I used 'removal/suspensions/omission/breaking" if you are not comfortable with 'breaking'
> The question is irrelevant to the court cases that will never actually see a verdict.
> 
> Imagine it is kind of the same thing that Germans had after Nuremberg Laws were passed.
> The laws were legal, real, implemented, and followed.
> It would be reassuring to know there are people in society that did oppose the laws or at least some metric in it.
> Just to know not entire country is deprived and fine with human rights being 'removed/suspended/omitted/broken'.
> And maybe if they knew there is more people like them, then they would have acted on it and stop the progress of the removal/suspensions/omission/breaking. History could have been rewritten.
> 
> 
> 
> "At what point would you *personally object* to the removal/suspensions/omission of person's right to give voluntary consent to medical procedure?"
> 
> There, I removed the 'breaking' just to make you feel more comfortable.





cainvest said:


> Doesn't matter what you remove, it's up to the courts to decide, not me.


And now you all understand how holocaust and other genocide came to happen. Citizens have no spine or values.

Morals, ethics - they all don't matter.
If those in power say they can suspend human rights - they are never to be questioned.

Thumbs up to Nuremberg Laws! - after all, the courts decided they are fine.

Perfect logic.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> We just had an election and Canadians supported the current government's policies on spending and restrictions during the pandemic.


Yep, Trudeau got elected with less votes than Hitler - what is your point?
And they got elected for precisely the same reason - people love to scapegoat, and scapegoats deserve to have human rights suspended.


----------



## sags

Congratulations on becoming aware the world can be an evil place and humans are capable of inhumane activities.

None of that is new or has any relevance on the Canadian government's attempts to save the healthcare system, economy, and citizens.

It is obvious you trail somewhat behind the Canadian public on the individual versus society rights debates.

That debate was concluded when the Charter of Rights was adopted and amended.

Were you a citizen of Canada when the Charter was discussed, debated and passed ?

If so, you should have spoken up then. Arriving 40 years later and saying you disagree with the final result doesn't count for much.


----------



## damian13ster

That's precisely what was being told in Germany in 1930-1935. Saving economy, health, and well-being of citizens.
The parallels are stark, and terrifying. People didn't react then, saying exact same things you are saying now.
History is repeating itself. We are making the same mistakes humans did back then. Haven't learned a thing. Still allowing for scapegoats (nothing new here), and now saying that scapegoats deserve to have their rights suspended (new in recent years, and precisely the red line that puts Canada where Germany was 1930-1935).

No, I wasn't alive 40 years ago so couldn't speak up back then. There is a wake-up call now though, and everyone is hitting snooze button.


----------



## Zipper

Methinks Damien has "jumped the shark"!


----------



## sags

Damien has Nazis on the brain.

He fails to recognize the difference between a non-elected dictator seizing power and eliminating all opposition and democratic choice, and a free democracy such as exists in Canada.

If Canadians find the Charter of Rights abusive they will have their elected leaders change it. Canadians will demand that past wrongs be prevented from happening again, as is happening with the residential schools scandal from the past once the abuse was uncovered and revealed.

As it is, most Canadians accept the legally argued and well reasoned decisions of our Supreme Court on such matters.

And that is how a well functioning democracy works best. Canada is doing democracy just fine.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Damien has Nazis on the brain.
> 
> He fails to recognize the difference between a non-elected dictator seizing power and eliminating all opposition and democratic choice, and a free democracy such as exists in Canada.
> 
> If Canadians find the Charter of Rights abusive they will have their elected leaders change it. Canadians will demand that past wrongs be prevented from happening again, as is happening with the residential schools scandal from the past once the abuse was uncovered and revealed.
> 
> As it is, most Canadians accept the legally argued and well reasoned decisions of our Supreme Court on such matters.
> 
> And that is how a well functioning democracy works best. Canada is doing democracy just fine.


He was elected with higher vote % than Trudeau.

There was already an attempt to introduce dictatorship, with non-elected leader at helm.
Bill C-10 in Alberta
2nd COVID package in federal government.

Canadians do not demand past wrongs to be prevented from repeating - that is precisely the problem.
Canada is not doing democracy anymore. Having an election alone, doesn't make a country democratic.
Human rights, separation of power (section 33 of the toilet paper called Charted of Rights and Freedom is perfect example of that), free media - that makes the country democratic.
The first two are already violated in Canada.

And just how strong human rights are in Canada is underlined by this quote from attorney general:

[54] On the Attorney General’s argument, the Government of Canada could implement a policy that requires government suppliers to only hire individuals of, for example, a particular race or ethnicity. Despite the clear discriminatory impacts of such a policy on individual employees, the Attorney General argues they could not seek vindication of their right to equality under section 15 of the _Charter_ owing to principles of privity of contract.


----------



## damian13ster

Sign Australia backed the wrong vaccine


Evidence from the United Kingdom shows Australia may have backed the wrong Covid vaccine, with the maligned AstraZeneca jab offering potential protection from the virus for life.




www.news.com.au


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> And now you all understand how holocaust and other genocide came to happen. Citizens have no spine or values.


Just because the vast majority of people don't agree with you doesn't mean they have no spine or values. You seem to be building yourself a rather large pedestal as one of the few people in Canada with values. I suggest you run in the next election stating the arguments you post here with the promise that you'll "make Canada a good and moral place to live" under your leadership. I look forward to the election results on that one.


----------



## damian13ster

People who don't protect human rights have no moral spine.


----------



## KaeJS

sags said:


> Damien has Nazis on the brain.
> 
> Canada is doing democracy just fine.


Yikes.


----------



## damian13ster

Anyway, as ridiculous as it sounds, we won't reach consensus on whether human rights should be respected or not.

Back on the topic:
Sounds like government removed the best vaccine available from the market









Sign Australia backed the wrong vaccine


Evidence from the United Kingdom shows Australia may have backed the wrong Covid vaccine, with the maligned AstraZeneca jab offering potential protection from the virus for life.




www.news.com.au


----------



## damian13ster

If you are under 40, you are more likely to get hospitalized or die from myocarditis after mRNA vaccine than after COVID infection. For people over 40 the opposite is true.
The plots don't separate by gender; however, it was found that men are 50% more likely to die or be hospitalized with myocarditis after mRNA vaccine than women.

Edit: for some reason link didn't paste.



https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0.pdf


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> The plots don't separate by gender; however, it was found that men are 50% more likely to die or be hospitalized with myocarditis after mRNA vaccine than women.


Really? not gonna identify the sourcE?


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Really? not gonna identify the sourcE?


Link didn't paste, I missed it. Post edited. They later came out with more data for 3rd doses as well as breakdown by gender:



https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1.full.pdf


----------



## cainvest

And the canadian numbers for cases of myocarditis and/or pericarditis show serious side effects remaining rare (0.008% of all doses administered)


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> And the canadian numbers for cases of myocarditis and/or pericarditis show serious side effects remaining rare (0.008% of all doses administered)


And your point?

Look up the definitions of 'relative' vs 'absolute'.

Looking at the data, if you are male under 40, you are 12 times more likely to get hospitalized or die from myocarditis after mRNA vaccine than after covid infection.

This doesn't change the fact that absolute probability of being hospitalized or dying from myocarditis due to vaccine is 0.012%.
Simply being hospitalized or dying from myocarditis due to COVID is at 0.001% for this demographic
Population of males under 40 in Canada is around 9.4 million for reference.
0.012% x 9.4mln = 1,128 hospitalizations and deaths due to vaccine induced myocarditis for males under 40 alone.
Is that closer to the number you are willing to injure or kill for 'greater good' or not quite there yet?

That's for 2 doses. Not enough data yet for what 3rd, 4th, and other consecutive ones will add to that.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Is that closer to the number you are willing to injure or kill for 'greater good' or not quite there yet?


Wow, you made it two posts before circling back to this ... impressive!


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> And your point?
> 
> Look up the definitions of 'relative' vs 'absolute'.
> 
> Looking at the data, if you are male under 40, you are 12 times more likely to get hospitalized or die from myocarditis after mRNA vaccine than after covid infection.
> 
> This doesn't change the fact that absolute probability of being hospitalized or dying from myocarditis due to vaccine is 0.012%.
> Simply being hospitalized or dying from myocarditis due to COVID is at 0.001% for this demographic
> Population of males under 40 in Canada is around 9.4 million for reference.
> 0.012% x 9.4mln = 1,128 hospitalizations and deaths due to vaccine induced myocarditis for males under 40 alone.
> Is that closer to the number you are willing to injure or kill for 'greater good' or not quite there yet?
> 
> That's for 2 doses. Not enough data yet for what 3rd, 4th, and other consecutive ones will add to that.


according to CDC data and Alberta Health the myocarditis is mild and passes in a few days. That is not the case with people who get covid and get myocarditis.


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> People who don't protect human rights have no moral spine.


people who don't have any social responsibility or a commitment to the public interest have no moral spine.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> according to CDC data and Alberta Health the myocarditis is mild and passes in a few days. That is not the case with people who get covid and get myocarditis.


The study quoted looks only at hospitalizations and death.
Hospitalizations had average length of > 4 days.
If you consider hospitalization of above 4 days or death as 'mild' - then that's subjective opinion we will disagree on.

Where is your data for your second sentence? Or did you make that up?


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> The study quoted looks only at hospitalizations and death.
> Hospitalizations had average length of > 4 days.
> If you consider hospitalization of above 4 days or death as 'mild' - then that's subjective opinion we will disagree on.
> 
> Where is your data for your second sentence? Or did you make that up?


go to the Alberta Health and CDC site . They have all the data that you could handle. The CDC tracks all negatives after vaccinations even if they are not connected.


----------



## damian13ster

You lied that research looks at 'mild' cases of myocarditis and that covid cases are more serious. Where is the data for that?
*Because research has exact same threshold for myocarditis from vaccine and from covid. Exact same threshold*
Using the same threshold, as a <40 male, you are 12 times more likely to be hospitalized or die from myocarditis from vaccine than from infection.

Just asking where do you get your information from which is in direct contradiction to the actual data? Choosing political appointees' words again over data?


----------



## damian13ster

Interesting data from South Africa:









Effectiveness of BNT162b2 Vaccine against Omicron Variant in South Africa | NEJM


Correspondence from The New England Journal of Medicine — Effectiveness of BNT162b2 Vaccine against Omicron Variant in South Africa



www.nejm.org













For reference:
Nov15: 22.7% fully vaccinated, 27.5% at least one dose
Dec 7: 25.5% fully vaccinated, 30.4% at least one dose


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> You lied that research looks at 'mild' cases of myocarditis and that covid cases are more serious. Where is the data for that?
> *Because research has exact same threshold for myocarditis from vaccine and from covid. Exact same threshold*
> Using the same threshold, as a <40 male, you are 12 times more likely to be hospitalized or die from myocarditis from vaccine than from infection.
> 
> Just asking where do you get your information from which is in direct contradiction to the actual data? Choosing political appointees' words again over data?


I will stick to the liars at the Mayo Clinic , John Hopkins and the CDC.


----------



## damian13ster

Did Mayo Clinic, John Hopkins, and CDC negate the research?
Did they do the research on myocarditis? You haven't posted any sources or data


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> Did Mayo Clinic, John Hopkins, and CDC negate the research?
> Did they do the research on myocarditis? You haven't posted any sources or data


I don't have the skills to post their data. The CDC has a pile of data on possible negative effects. I am not a Trump fake news person. I think the CDC t is the most credible source for objective data. You think differently.


----------



## zinfit

The CDC says out of 500,000,000[ rounded] vaccinations they have 1947 reported cases of myocarditis and other heart conditions. How many are connected to the vaccines isn't clear. In most cases the conditions were mild and the relevant people are still monitored . They follow every adverse effect following vaccinations. Something like 10,000 people have died following vaccinations. Again it is only a portion that can be connected to vaccines. Clearly J&J has been a problem and I don't anyone is recommending that vaccine. Go to their site this information is there. Vaers is another nation data collecting site for adverse effects from all effects. At the end of day its like life its a risk and reward calculation. Close to 85% of the Canadian adult population has discounted the chance of getting hit by lightening and has taken on the risk of vaccination. This group is not filling up hospitals beds with covid cases. The vaccinated make a disportionally small % of the covid deaths. I don't have a link but the sun rises in the east and sets in the west and sorry I don't have a link for that.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> The CDC says out of 500,000,000[ rounded] vaccinations they have 1947 reported cases of myocarditis and other heart conditions. How many are connected to the vaccines isn't clear. In most cases the conditions were mild and the relevant people are still monitored . They follow every adverse effect following vaccinations. Something like 10,000 people have died following vaccinations. Again it is only a portion that can be connected to vaccines. Clearly J&J has been a problem and I don't anyone is recommending that vaccine. Go to their site this information is there. Vaers is another nation data collecting site for adverse effects from all effects. At the end of day its like life its a risk and reward calculation. Close to 85% of the Canadian adult population has discounted the chance of getting hit by lightening and has taken on the risk of vaccination. This group is not filling up hospitals beds with covid cases. The vaccinated make a disportionally small % of the covid deaths. I don't have a link but the sun rises in the east and sets in the west and sorry I don't have a link for that.


You really see a world as black and white, don't you?
First, you need to understand how data gets collected by VAERS.

Second, you need to understand that one statement being true doesn't make another statement false.

CDC statements that
'Most myocarditis cases due to vaccination are mild' can and likely is true
'You are more likely to be hospitalized or die with myocarditis after covid than vaccine' can and likely is true (study I have posted also shows that statement to be true'

However, you have to understand what you are reading. 
The statements aren't broken down by gender or age, or vaccine type. The study that looked at about 50,000,000 doses applied is.
Therefore, although the statements listed above are true, so are those statements:

'You are more likely to die or be hospitalized with myocarditis after mrna vaccine than after covid'
*'As male under 40, you are 12 times more likely to die or be hospitalized with myocarditis after mrna vaccine than after covid'*

Surely you don't expect 25 year old male to have same health profile as 90 year old woman?
CDC statements lump those together.
The research study I have posted breaks down risks by age and gender.

As a 20 year old male your health choices are likely to, and should be different, than those of 50 year old female, 70 year old diabetic, or 90 year old great grandfather.


----------



## zinfit

The Director of the CDC says the overall odds of dying from covid are 14 times higher for the unvaccinated compared to the vaccinated. . Yes hat is a pretty black and white statistic The CDC acknowledges that the heart inflamation issues seem to be with young males under the age of 30. This again is very rare and in most cases is a mild effect . Don't go outside in the summer because about 50 people in North America will get killed from lightening. I want a more normal society with the return of my freediom. The pathway to that goal includes vaccinations.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Your freedom was taken away by the government, not by the unvaccinated. They just used them as an excuse.


----------



## MrMatt

They won't let unvaccinated people work at the hospital, but they'll let COVID positive people work?

This literally makes no sense to me.
If you have COVID, you could spread it to people, you should not be working at the hospital if you're COVID positive.

What possible logic makes a COVID19 positive person less of a risk than an unvaccinated COVID negative person?


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> The Director of the CDC says the overall odds of dying from covid are 14 times higher for the unvaccinated compared to the vaccinated. . Yes hat is a pretty black and white statistic The CDC acknowledges that the heart inflamation issues seem to be with young males under the age of 30. This again is very rare and in most cases is a mild effect . Don't go outside in the summer because about 50 people in North America will get killed from lightening. I want a more normal society with the return of my freediom. The pathway to that goal includes vaccinations.


For which variant? Because statistics for alpha and beta are useless - those are no longer in circulation.

Hospitalizations and deaths from myocarditis are 12 times higher from mrna vaccine than from covid for males under 40.
Maybe in absolute terms it is very rare. In relative terms it is 12 times higher risk.

You will not get normal and freedom. Countries with >90% vaccinations don't have that. Country with 100% vaccinations don't have that.
Only path to normal is dropping restrictions and human rights suspension. All it takes is political decision.
They are the ones who took freedom away from you and they are the only ones that can give it back


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> They won't let unvaccinated people work at the hospital, but they'll let COVID positive people work?
> 
> This literally makes no sense to me.
> If you have COVID, you could spread it to people, you should not be working at the hospital if you're COVID positive.
> 
> What possible logic makes a COVID19 positive person less of a risk than an unvaccinated COVID negative person?


It isn't about logic. It isn't about solving an issue. It never was

This is as pure of an example as you will ever get.

They are literally sending infection into hospital, spreading disease on purpose to those most in danger.

They prefer to do that over letting people who chose to exercise their human rights get away with such exercise of freedom - can't have people making their own choices.
Plus, it has an added bonus. Anyone in a hospital with a broken leg who gets infected by positive nurse or a doctor sent there by health ministry will count as COVID hospitalizations!


----------



## diharv

And the point of linking as many hospitalizations with Covid is what? The sky is falling fear mongering panic hysteria? The bonus being a scared populace is a controlled populace?


----------



## MrMatt

diharv said:


> And the point of linking as many hospitalizations with Covid is what? The sky is falling fear mongering panic hysteria? The bonus being a scared populace is a controlled populace?


Lets not be overdramatic.

The "hospitalization" numbers appear to be "People with COVID who are in the hospital". 
There are 2 categories,
1. Those who are in hospital because of their COVID, who need COVID care, and COVID precautions.
2. Those who are in the hospital for another reason, who do not need COVID specific care, but still need rigorous COVID precautions

If I'm running a hospital system, I want to know how many of my patients have COVID.
However a lot of people have also been assuming that people with COVID in hospitals are likely in hospitals for COVID reasons, and it can be a proxy for how dangerous COVID is, which isn't a horrible proxy, but then the distinction needs to be clear.

Both numbers and perspectives are valid, but you have to make sure you're using the numbers appropriate for your analysis. This is the common problem with statistics.


----------



## Money172375

It’s estimated that the ”in hospital with COVID” is 50% higher than the “in hospital because of COVID” in ontario. CMOH says they will start reporting the latter # instead.


----------



## zinfit

Money172375 said:


> It’s estimated that the ”in hospital with COVID” is 50% higher than the “in hospital because of COVID” in ontario. CMOH says they will start reporting the latter # instead.


Based on Legault's press conference hospitalizations are exploding. It doubled in one week. He also acknowledged that Quebec hospital capacity is much lower then the US.This was in response to the US not taking the steps that Quebec is taking. He acknowledged that some people will be denied healthcare. Not a positive story.


----------



## sags

I got my third shot today and the vaccinator was a young lady who was donating her day off from working as a nurse in the ER.

That is what intelligent, mature young adults do.

She is giving up her days off to help others avoid getting sick, in comparison to the entitled weenies who whine and complain about their rights.

Go get vaccinated.......pussies.


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> I got my third shot today and the vaccinator was a young lady who was donating her day off from working as a nurse in the ER.
> 
> That is what intelligent, mature young adults do.
> 
> She is giving up her days off to help others avoid getting sick, in comparison to the entitled weenies who whine and complain about their rights.
> 
> Go get vaccinated.......pussies.


A few months ago I didn't think I would be on your side. On this issue I am with you.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Money172375 said:


> It’s estimated that the ”in hospital with COVID” is 50% higher than the “in hospital because of COVID” in ontario. CMOH says they will start reporting the latter # instead.


I wonder what else they've been lying about.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> I got my third shot today and the vaccinator was a young lady who was donating her day off from working as a nurse in the ER.
> 
> That is what intelligent, mature young adults do.
> 
> She is giving up her days off to help others avoid getting sick, in comparison to the entitled weenies who whine and complain about their rights.
> 
> Go get vaccinated.......pussies.


Every single day you conveniently come up with a touching new story or a dire warning that fully confirms your point of view.


----------



## MrMatt

I'm just wondering, can I go to the hospital with the unvaccinated COVID negative staff instead of the one with vaccinated COVID positive staff?
Thanks.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> I'm just wondering, can I go to the hospital with the unvaccinated COVID negative staff instead of the one with vaccinated COVID positive staff?
> Thanks.


I suspect the unvaccinated non-covid staff is staying away from the hospitals. With the rate of transmission they would be pretty stupid to show up.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> I suspect the unvaccinated non-covid staff is staying away from the hospitals. With the rate of transmission they would be pretty stupid to show up.


Maybe they would like to help and be able to perform the professions they have been trained for?
But no, let's instead send COVID-infected people to spread the virus in hospitals.

Is it really a decision you are defending?


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> I suspect the unvaccinated non-covid staff is staying away from the hospitals. With the rate of transmission they would be pretty stupid to show up.


They were fired in a lot of places.

Honestly I think it's dumb to be unvaccinated (in most circumstances)
But to have COVID positive staff working in a hospital is insane.

The whole argument for mandatory workplace vaccinations was a 'safe work environment'. 
If you think unvaccinated people are a risk, clearly COVID positive people are a greater risk.

The logic here is astonishing.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> They were fired in a lot of places.
> 
> Honestly I think it's dumb to be unvaccinated (in most circumstances)
> But to have COVID positive staff working in a hospital is insane.
> 
> *The whole argument for mandatory workplace vaccinations was a 'safe work environment'.*
> If you think unvaccinated people are a risk, clearly COVID positive people are a greater risk.
> 
> *The logic here is astonishing.*


 ... don't dispute this at all. 

The most astonishing logic is "why the hell does a "hospital/healthcare" worker not want to get vaccinated in the first place"? Especially for someone who works in the health/medical field not trusting the vaccine (duh). Or because of the misconception/misapplication of "individual" rights in which case, go be a lawyer instead.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... don't dispute this at all.
> 
> The most astonishing logic is "why the hell does a "hospital/healthcare" worker not want to get vaccinated in the first place"? Especially for someone who works in the health/medical field not trusting the vaccine (duh). Or because of the misconception/misapplication of "individual" rights in which case, go be a lawyer instead.


The logic isn't astonishing at all. Health care workers will have seen far more reactions to the shot than most people and that will account for at least some (not all) of the hesitancy.


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> The logic isn't astonishing at all. Health care workers will have seen far more reactions to the shot than most people and that will account for at least some (not all) of the hesitancy.


No the logic that a COVID positive worker is less of a threat than an unvaccinated COVID negative worker


----------



## KaeJS

sags said:


> Go get vaccinated.......pussies.


That's quite the statement coming from you.


----------



## MK7GTI

sags said:


> I got my third shot today and the vaccinator was a young lady who was donating her day off from working as a nurse in the ER.
> 
> That is what intelligent, mature young adults do.
> 
> She is giving up her days off to help others avoid getting sick, in comparison to the entitled weenies who whine and complain about their rights.
> 
> Go get vaccinated.......pussies.


When you make statements like the last sentence you lose all credibility. This is why so many people have you on ignore.


----------



## m3s

We have more COVID positive cases at work now than ever before. Positive test gets you 5 days work from home.

Exposure to a positive test doesn't matter anymore or we'd be shut down. All the positive cases were vaccinated except for one (not sure how he is still employed here because privacy) Seems to be like getting a mild flu and then everything tastes and smells like garbage even if you were vaccinated. No big deal

We had to cancel a retirement party but otherwise it's business and school as usual. Oh and the hospitals are nearing capacity and called in the military already


----------



## HappilyRetired

MrMatt said:


> No the logic that a COVID positive worker is less of a threat than an unvaccinated COVID negative worker


I was referring to the comment why a health care worker would choose not to get vaccinated. My suggestion was that some of them have seen the side effects of the shot and chose not to get it based on that.


----------



## sags

MK7GTI said:


> When you make statements like the last sentence you lose all credibility. This is why so many people have you on ignore.


----------



## sags

The side effects of the vaccine for me is a bit of a sore shoulder and all the normal aging aches and pains I wake up with are gone.

Maybe the vaccine wakes up the immune system and it gets busy getting rid of leftover arthritis, rheumatism, and impetigo.

Or maybe, the Moderna vaccine contains some ingredients that have a positive effect on chronic pain.

_The Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine contains the following ingredients: messenger ribonucleic acid
(mRNA), lipids (SM-102, polyethylene glycol [PEG] 2000 dimyristoyl glycerol [DMG],
cholesterol, and 1,2-distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine [DSPC]), tromethamine,
tromethamine hydrochloride, acetic acid, sodium acetate trihydrate, and sucrose _


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> I was referring to the comment why a health care worker would choose not to get vaccinated. My suggestion was that some of them have seen the side effects of the shot and chose not to get it based on that.


That makes more sense.
Just realized I've got someone on ignore that likley posted in there.









Really, I think they really shot themselves in the foot with letting known COVID positive people back in to work in hospitals.
It really undercuts any safety argument for terminating unvaccinated staff, and I hope the staff that were fired win big, and hold those who pushed these policies accountable.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Maybe they would like to help and be able to perform the professions they have been trained for?


 ... seriously, what a spin.



> But no, let's instead send COVID-infected people to spread the virus in hospitals.
> 
> Is it really a decision you are defending?


 ... then where do you expect we send Covid-infected people (meaning including infected healthcare workers) to then, if not the hospitals? 

My previous suggestion that Covid infected healthcare workers (since they can and supposedly willing to work) should be assigned to Covid-infected patients was only met with silence. Why's it that?


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> The logic isn't astonishing at all. Health care workers will have seen far more reactions to the shot than most people and that will account for at least some (not all) of the hesitancy.


 ... seriously, as if the Covid vaccine is the only vaccine that they have seen reactions to? ... even after at least a year of mass vaccinations. 

And surprisingly, they are not concerned with the rest of the sheep population, including their colleagues reacting severely to the vaccines. 

Or is it a secret that they have a magical crystal ball to foretell a severe reaction for these anti-vaxxers when jabbed?


----------



## HappilyRetired

Really, I think they really shot themselves in the foot with letting known COVID positive people back in to work in hospitals.
It really undercuts any safety argument for terminating unvaccinated staff, and I hope the staff that were fired win big, and hold those who pushed these policies accountable.
[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Yet some people think that the government can do no wrong and they'll happily support every wrong decision that they make.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> That makes more sense.
> Just realized I've got someone on ignore that likley posted in there.
> View attachment 22575


 ... so now you noticed. I believe I'm on your ignore list but not vice-versa, hence, my response back.



> Really, I think they really shot themselves in the foot with letting known COVID positive people back in to work in hospitals.


 ... don't disagree with that if you mean they = them hospital administrators, starting with Quebec.



> It really undercuts any safety argument for terminating unvaccinated staff, and I hope the staff that were fired win big, and hold those who pushed these policies accountable.


 ... my simple question for you. 

Since you work for/at an arms-length employer - what is your company's policy with respect to vaccination? No mandate? This is not personal but I'm curious.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... seriously, as if the Covid vaccine is the only vaccine that they have seen reactions to? ... even after at least a year of mass vaccinations.
> 
> And surprisingly, they are not concerned with the rest of the sheep population, including their colleagues reacting severely to the vaccines.
> 
> Or is it a secret that they have a magical crystal ball to foretell a severe reaction for these anti-vaxxers when jabbed?


Perhaps it's the only shot that they have seen too much negative reaction to. No one resigns over a smallpox vaccination or the flu shot.

You seem to be one of those who will comply with every single government order, regardless of how wrong it is. It all started with "2 weeks to slow the curve". Now you'll happily take every shot they order, you'll fink on your neighbors, you'll hide from your family, and you'll stop participating in society.

But what gets you really angry more than that is that there are some people who refuse to live in fear like you.


----------



## Mechanic

I'm not sure what the adverse reactions have been. The worst I have heard is a sore arm for a few days. I am still baffled why so many don't want a vaccine, especially healthcare workers. Waiting till I am eligible for my 3rd shot here. That's another issue, why so many shots are needed. Is it due to virus changes ?


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> Perhaps it's the only shot that they have seen too much negative reaction to. No one resigns over a smallpox vaccination or the flu shot.


Of course not, because you don't need to take those vaccines.

Smallpox has been eradicated for 40 years and isn't a job requirement that I'm aware of.
In Ontario, the nurses fought and won the right to refuse the flu shot.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Mechanic said:


> I'm not sure what the adverse reactions have been. The worst I have heard is a sore arm for a few days. I am still baffled why so many don't want a vaccine, especially healthcare workers. Waiting till I am eligible for my 3rd shot here. That's another issue, why so many shots are needed. Is it due to virus changes ?


The adverse reactions are not being reported by the media but that doesn't prevent medical workers from seeing them firsthand. FYI, my nephew contracted myocarditis immediately following his shot, prior to that he was perfectly healthy.


----------



## HappilyRetired

MrMatt said:


> Of course not, because you don't need to take those vaccines.
> 
> Smallpox has been eradicated for 40 years and isn't a job requirement that I'm aware of.
> In Ontario, the nurses fought and won the right to refuse the flu shot.


Oops, thanks for correcting me.


----------



## damian13ster

Mechanic said:


> I'm not sure what the adverse reactions have been. The worst I have heard is a sore arm for a few days. I am still baffled why so many don't want a vaccine, especially healthcare workers. Waiting till I am eligible for my 3rd shot here. That's another issue, why so many shots are needed. Is it due to virus changes ?


Death and hospitalizations have been among adverse reaction.
If you are male under 40, your chance of death or hospitalization from myocarditis after mrna vaccine is exactly 12 times higher than after infection.
This has been researched and documented. We even know why that is the case since mechanism was investigated.
Saying that adverse reaction is just a sore arm is a blatant lie.


And I think governments just lost all cases in courts with sending covid positive staff to hospitals. Of course none of the cases will ever go to verdict as they will be delayed until mandates are lifted and case will be dropped, but that's another story


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Perhaps it's the only shot that they have seen too much negative reaction to. No one resigns over a smallpox vaccination or the flu shot.


 ... how do you know? Were you there? Or is it just your famous assumption or what your inlaws told you?



> You seem to be one of those who will comply with every single government order, regardless of how wrong it is. It all started with "2 weeks to slow the curve". Now you'll happily take every shot they order, you'll fink on your neighbors, you'll hide from your family, and you'll stop participating in society.


 ... now the famous accusatory ploy when one can't come up with an argument.



> But what gets you really angry more than that is that there are some people who refuse to live in fear like you.


 ... and strangely, you're screaming and pointing fingers on this forum without hesitation ... and posting moreso than I am living in fear. So why aren't you out there instead of on this forum 24/7?


----------



## sags

When the pandemic is over, and vaccinated people can celebrate they participated in winning the battle, the unvaxxed and their enablers aren't invited.

They get thanks for nothing, but contributing to the misinformation about vaccines and convincing people not to get a vaccination. Shame on them.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> Death and hospitalizations have been among adverse reaction.
> If you are male under 40, your chance of death or hospitalization from myocarditis after mrna vaccine is exactly 12 times higher than after infection.
> This has been researched and documented. We even know why that is the case since mechanism was investigated.
> Saying that adverse reaction is just a sore arm is a blatant lie.
> 
> 
> And I think governments just lost all cases in courts with sending covid positive staff to hospitals. Of course none of the cases will ever go to verdict as they will be delayed until mandates are lifted and case will be dropped, but that's another story


Pure baloney


----------



## MrMatt

Mechanic said:


> I'm not sure what the adverse reactions have been. The worst I have heard is a sore arm for a few days. I am still baffled why so many don't want a vaccine, especially healthcare workers. Waiting till I am eligible for my 3rd shot here. That's another issue, why so many shots are needed. Is it due to virus changes ?


A few deaths, quite a number of reports of heart problems.
I personally know someone who had a stroke a few hours after their shot.

However I'd say a bit more than half had no noticeable reaction, and a significant number, though less than half were VERY sick after one of the doses. Myself I was bedridden for a day after my first dose, and I don't recall ever having that type of reaction.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... and strangely, you're screaming and pointing fingers on this forum without hesitation ... and posting moreso than I am living in fear. So why aren't you out there instead of on this forum 24/7?


We are currently in Florida mingling with the unmasked. My apologies for popping in every now and then when I refresh my drink or apply more sunscreen.


----------



## Beaver101

Mechanic said:


> I'm not sure what the adverse reactions have been. The worst I have heard is a sore arm for a few days.


 ... my relatives from the USA got their 3rd shot back in "November" and mentioned the sore-arm reaction was worst. End up with a rash that subsided after a couple of days. Don't take my words - read other forum members' experience here on their 3rd shot. 

As for those who's telling you the reaction is BAD, actually deadly would you want to believe them if they not going to take it?

I think you can gauge your own reaction to the vaccine (if you stick with the same type) based on your reaction to the 2nd dose. 



> I am still baffled why so many don't want a vaccine, especially healthcare workers.


 ... same here, especially with "healthcare" workers. The others (anti-vaxxers) got the modern "look-at-me, I need all the attention" syndrome. [And then there're their enabler/supporters, vax-regretters, and wannabees.]



> Waiting till I am eligible for my 3rd shot here. That's another issue, why so many shots are needed. Is it due to virus changes ?


 ... same here, getting my 3rd short next month at earliest booking through the provincial portal (challenges, fiasco). The vaccine wanes over time, hence, the need for the 3rd shot to boost up your immunization on any variants of Covid (which are still floating around) so you don't end up in the hospital unnecessarily.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> We are currently in Florida mingling with the unmasked. My apologies for popping in every now and then when I refresh my drink or apply more sunscreen.


 ... good for you. Enjoy your time there than us miserable Ontarians. Just don't send your cooties back.


----------



## Eder

It seems the vaccinated in Ontario are twice as likely now to be infected with Covid that the unvaccinated according to Ontario's site. If true it seems to me they should be showing proof of nonvaccination to get into hockey games , restaurants etc. They now have "technical difficulties" displaying cases/100,000 by vaccine status lol.






Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> It seems the vaccinated in Ontario are twice as likely now to be infected with Covid that the unvaccinated according to Ontario's site.


 ... what do you expect? The numbers of infections will go down with Omicron raging. Today's number is 16,000, all time record. 



> If true it seems to me they should be showing proof of nonvaccination to get into hockey games , restaurants etc. They now have "technical difficulties" displaying cases/100,000 by vaccine status lol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid-19.ontario.ca


 ... you can make the suggestion to Doug Ford, our premier. But again, what's Ontario data to you when you don't even reside here. Another pathetic provincial alien.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> A few deaths, quite a number of reports of heart problems.
> I personally know someone who had a stroke a few hours after their shot.
> 
> However I'd say a bit more than half had no noticeable reaction, and a significant number, though less than half were VERY sick after one of the doses. Myself I was bedridden for a day after my first dose, and I don't recall ever having that type of reaction.


Pure bullshit, unsupported by any facts. Stop spreading FUD.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> It seems the vaccinated in Ontario are twice as likely now to be infected with Covid that the unvaccinated according to Ontario's site.


No, you're misreading it.
That's cases and their vaccination status.
Since nearly 90% of Ontario is vaccinated if the vaccine was ineffective you'd expect cases to be similar.

Now the sneaky way to phrase it is most people with COVID are vaccinated, But that's only because most people are vaccinated.

It looks like the vaccine is someone effective at reducing hospitalization and VERY effective at keeping people out of the ICU. 

Assuming equal numbers getting COVID, and 90% vaccination rate, and 35% ICU vaccinated, 65 % unvaccinated. You can see something interesting.
10% of the population is responsible for 65% of the ICU beds, 90% is only using up 35% of the beds, thats's a HUGE difference.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> No, you're misreading it.
> That's cases and their vaccination status.
> Since nearly 90% of Ontario is vaccinated if the vaccine was ineffective you'd expect cases to be similar.
> 
> Now the sneaky way to phrase it is most people with COVID are vaccinated, But that's only because most people are vaccinated.
> 
> It looks like the vaccine is someone effective at reducing hospitalization and VERY effective at keeping people out of the ICU.
> 
> Assuming equal numbers getting COVID, and 90% vaccination rate, and 35% ICU vaccinated, 65 % unvaccinated. You can see something interesting.
> 10% of the population is responsible for 65% of the ICU beds, 90% is only using up 35% of the beds, thats's a HUGE difference.


Vaccination rate in Ontario is 77% to be precise.
Wonder why the number of 'unknowns' is so high. Apparently 32% of hospitalizations have 'unknown' vaccination status.

From Ontario portal:
Currently a rate of cases per 100,000 population:

Vaccinated: 80
Unvaccinated: 60











Only logical explanation seems that vaccinated people were less likely to get natural immunity with alpha/beta wave

ICU numbers still below 90 day average, but not by much anymore. Major dip during Christmas, other than that quite flat


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Vaccination rate in Ontario is 77% to be precise.


Less than 1% of ICU cases were under 12. So that overall vaccination rate is not representative of or applicable to ICU patients


https://health-infobase.canada.ca/src/data/covidLive/Epidemiological-summary-of-COVID-19-cases-in-Canada-Canada.ca.pdf


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## damian13ster

True; however you would need to look at total age distribution in ICU, not just typical distribution for COVID, considering this:

'While Brown said he can’t speak to COVID-19 hospitalizations in other parts of the province, in Brampton approximately 50 per cent of people in hospital diagnosed with COVID-19 were admitted for another reason.

"They came to the hospital for another procedure and found inadvertently that they had COVID, so no symptoms," Brown said. "So someone might be coming in for a surgery and because we’re testing all patients for COVID they find out that way."'









Ontario mayor calls for overhaul of 'misleading' COVID-19 hospitalization data


An Ontario mayor is calling on the province to overhaul how it reports pandemic hospitalizations, saying that the COVID-19 data reported daily is 'misleading.'




toronto.ctvnews.ca


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## sags

You should stop searching the internet for confirmation of what you think is happening.

The doctors and nurses in the hospitals are telling us all we need to know.


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## Beaver101

sags said:


> You should stop searching the internet for confirmation of what you think is happening.
> 
> The doctors and nurses in the hospitals are telling us all we need to know.


 ... some posters here are really pathetic ... they need data from other locations (province, countries, etc.) or any area other than their own backyard to support their narratives.


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## damian13ster

Well, my two nursing friends are in Mexico on vacation that they had no problems getting because Alberta is not having issues. COVID is not a problem here as of this moment in hospitals.
That's my backyard.
Right now Ontario, Quebec, BC have issues so it is natural to look for information there.


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## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Well, my two nursing friends are in Mexico on vacation that they had no problems getting because Alberta is not having issues. COVID is not a problem here as of this moment in hospitals.
> That's my backyard.


 ... good for them and good for you. And I hope it stays that way so we can ship some Covid-sick Ontarians there.



> Right now Ontario, Quebec, BC have issues so it is natural to look for information there.


 ... and what is going to do, not for you but for Alberta exactly?


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## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Well, my two nursing friends are in Mexico on vacation that they had no problems getting because Alberta is not having issues. COVID is not a problem here as of this moment in hospitals.
> That's my backyard.
> Right now Ontario, Quebec, BC have issues so it is natural to look for information there.


Alberta has more new cases per capita than Ontario.
They're also at a similar 30% positivity rate

Not sure why you think it's less of an issue there.


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## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Alberta has more new cases per capita than Ontario.
> They're also at a similar 30% positivity rate
> 
> Not sure why you think it's less of an issue there.


Only 57 people in ICU. 1/5th of what it was 3 months ago.
So there aren't problems in hospitals and nurses can take vacations.
No staffing shortages.
Likely to change soon, but only because of isolation rules. 
So if need be they can get infected nurses to work, just like Quebec, Ontario, BC.
Or you know, get the healthy ones to work, but that would be against the agenda


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## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Only 57 people in ICU. 1/5th of what it was 3 months ago.
> So there aren't problems in hospitals and nurses can take vacations.
> No staffing shortages.
> Likely to change soon, but only because of isolation rules.
> So if need be they can get infected nurses to work, just like Quebec, Ontario, BC.
> Or you know, get the healthy ones to work, but that would be against the agenda


And Ontario has only 143 COVID in ICU, again lower at a per capita rate.

Ontario has over 2000 ICU bed, it isn't that we're in crisis, it's the _POTENTIAL_ overwhelm


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## damian13ster

Yeah, there is constant 'potential' crisis. ICU numbers in Alberta are steadily coming down since end of september.
That's why they went on vacation. Should they instead stay and freak out in case they are needed at some undetermined point in the future?
I am not exactly sure what message are you trying to convey?


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## moderator2

There have been two threads which discuss more or less the same thing. I'm closing this thread. Please keep posting in:









COVID-19 thread for 2022


Continuing the discussion here in a new thread. Here's the old COVID-19 thread for 2020 and 2021




www.canadianmoneyforum.com


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