# What to expect from retirement.



## yousufj56 (Oct 4, 2018)

My dad just received his retirement papers. He's turning 65 next year. The paper says he will receive $230 per month. This seems really low. 

Is there anything else he can expect to receive? He's been self employed all these years.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

yousufj56 said:


> My dad just received his retirement papers. He's turning 65 next year. The paper says he will receive $230 per month. This seems really low.
> 
> Is there anything else he can expect to receive? He's been self employed all these years.


Not enough information to respond properly.

At a minimum, how long has he been in Canada as a citizen?

There are 3 possibilities for retirement income.

CPP - Canada Pension Plan.

OAS - Old Age Security.

GIS - Guaranteed Income Supplement.

Normally, these are supplemented with a persons own savings and investments they've accumulated through their lifetime of working.

ltr


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Presumably you are talking about CPP and not another plan of some sort? It's not low if he did not make CPP contributions for that many years, or was not able to make maximum payments. Per https://retirehappy.ca/how-much-will-you-get-from-canada/ it seems the average Canadian has only earned about $640/month.


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## Karlhungus (Oct 4, 2013)

Your dad could be like other self employed people i know. They think they are beating the system by paying themselves dividends instead of a salary. Therefore skipping the CPP. Then not investing on their own and retiring with little to no nest egg.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Agreed. I'd suggest starting with this (from my link up thread)


> The best way to figure out how much CPP you qualify for is to get your CPP statement of contributions. Call Service Canada 1-800-277-9914 and ask for a CPP Statement of Contributions. They will provide you with access to your online statement.


 I am guessing Karlhungus has hit it squarely on the head, or some facsimile thereof.


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## nortel'd (Mar 20, 2012)

yousufj56 said:


> My dad just received his retirement papers. He's turning 65 next year. The paper says he will receive $230 per month. This seems really low.
> 
> Is there anything else he can expect to receive? He's been self employed all these years.


You have to apply for CPP. On the other hand OAS reaches out to you in your 64th year.

My guess. Yousufj56 senior received his "OAS confirmation letter" in the mail. 

I got one a year before I turned 65 and I think it stated my monthly OAS payment was based on the net income I reported to CRA. Damn it, it included an OAS "clawback".


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

yousufj56 said:


> My dad just received his retirement papers. He's turning 65 next year. The paper says he will receive $230 per month. This seems really low.
> 
> Is there anything else he can expect to receive? He's been self employed all these years.


I don't know why some posters seem to think readers have crystal balls that will tell them what the poster leaves out of their post. You have not provided nearly enough information on which to get any relevant responses jousufj56. All you can and are getting is speculations. 

Read the links provided by like_to_retire and apply your father's circumstances to what you read. You should be able to quite easily determine what is is eligible for from the government in terms of CPP, OAS and GIS.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

I agree with LTA's post. But he, and the others here, do not seem to have any difficulty with the term "retirement papers". I seem to be alone in having no clue what is encompassed by that term.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> I agree with LTA's post. But he, and the others here, do not seem to have any difficulty with the term "retirement papers". I seem to be alone in having no clue what is encompassed by that term.


Agreed. I initially made the assumption it was CPP. But that term used by the OP could be anything!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mukhang pera said:


> I agree with LTA's post. But he, and the others here, do not seem to have any difficulty with the term "retirement papers". I seem to be alone in having no clue what is encompassed by that term.


I have a problem with it but it is just part of the overall lack of background information from which anyone could try to provide any kind of relevant help to the OP. Asking an intelligent question is not as easy as some might think it is. Such questions appear regularly in all kinds of forums.

For example, a common one in travel forums reads something like, 'I've 2 weeks vacation coming up, where should I go?' No info as to budget or interests and so basically unanswerable. 

This thread is much the same.


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## nortel'd (Mar 20, 2012)

nortel'd said:


> You have to apply for CPP. On the other hand OAS reaches out to you in your 64th year.
> 
> My guess. Yousufj56 senior received his "OAS confirmation letter" in the mail.
> 
> I got one a year before I turned 65 and I think it stated my monthly OAS payment was based on the net income I reported to CRA. Damn it, it included an OAS "clawback".


After reading some of the above comments, I apologize Yousufj56 for using the words "My guess". 

The comment "Your dad could be like other self employed people i know. They think they are beating the system by paying themselves dividends instead of a salary. Therefore skipping the CPP. Then not investing on their own and retiring with little to no nest egg." *upset me.*


The Joys of retirement...….


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Assumptions are always easy to make. One person can ASSUME an avoidance of CPP payments as was done here, but it's just an assumption. An as easy assumption to make would be that the person was self-employed but did not earn enough to qualify for more than a modest CPP payment even after many years of working. There are plenty of self employed people who earn quite modest incomes per year.

I prefer to avoid assumptions and ask for facts. It saves a lot of 'foot in mouth'. IF the OP comes back and gives a clearer picture it is quite likely that the comments about avoiding CPP payments will prove groundless and the poster who made that assumption will be made to look rather foolish. Such comments always reflect more on the one making the comments than on anyone else.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

LTA, if someone is willing to potentially waste their time describing scenarios (see your first para.), I don't see an problem. Possibilities get tabled that the OP might not have been aware of that help.
It is always more helpful if they return to provide more clarity. 
Those that don't, deserve no further effort. Yousufj has been around here a bit though.


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## yousufj56 (Oct 4, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> Assumptions are always easy to make. One person can ASSUME an avoidance of CPP payments as was done here, but it's just an assumption. An as easy assumption to make would be that the person was self-employed but did not earn enough to qualify for more than a modest CPP payment even after many years of working. There are plenty of self employed people who earn quite modest incomes per year.
> 
> I prefer to avoid assumptions and ask for facts. It saves a lot of 'foot in mouth'. IF the OP comes back and gives a clearer picture it is quite likely that the comments about avoiding CPP payments will prove groundless and the poster who made that assumption will be made to look rather foolish. Such comments always reflect more on the one making the comments than on anyone else.


Sorry for the delayed response. Had back to back emergency situations. 

The reason why my question sounds vague is because I don't have enough knowledge on the topic for me to understand what information would be useful to know when answering the question. Hence, I cannot answer my own question and need to ask. 

He didn't pay himself dividends. He has very low income after paying employees etc. 

He has been a citizen since 1996. He's made contributions to CPP since 1999. Apparently the OAS papers indicated he started making contributions since 2003. How can I find out which date is actually correct? 

What other information can I provide. 

Links provided are helpful, thanks for the responses.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

yousufj56 said:


> Sorry for the delayed response. Had back to back emergency situations.
> 
> The reason why my question sounds vague is because I don't have enough knowledge on the topic for me to understand what information would be useful to know when answering the question. Hence, I cannot answer my own question and need to ask.
> 
> ...


First, you need to understand that CPP and OAS are two separate things. CPP pays a pension based on contributions. OAS pays separately based on years of residence in Canada between the ages of 18 and 65. That means from when he first LANDED in Canada as a Permanent Resident, NOT from when he became a citizen. 

So keep questions and paragraphs about CPP and OAS separate to avoid confusion.

Has he applied for CPP? https://www.eyefortravel.com/revenue-and-data-management/rate-parity-should-it-stay-or-should-it-go

OAS is now generally done automatically with the person receiving a letter a month after they turn 64. See here:
https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/publicpensions/cpp/old-age-security/apply.html

Regarding the apparent difference in when the thinks he started making CPP contributions is something you would need to find paperwork for that indicates he was paying in 1999. If he had a business then presumably he had an accountant who would have records of whether money was paid out for CPP or not. It would also show up in his 1999 Income Tax Return. If he hasn't kept it, I believe he can request a copy from Revenue Canada. Someone else may know more about that than I do.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

A copy of the CPP contributions statement can be obtained from Services Canada to see years of contributions https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/publicpensions/cpp/statement-contributions.html


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## Foxx88 (Aug 1, 2019)

_*RE comment above:*_ _"Your dad could be like other self employed people i know. They think they are beating the system by paying themselves dividends instead of a salary. Therefore skipping the CPP. Then not investing on their own and retiring with little to no nest egg."_

Maybe some self-employed people don't pay their CPP premiums, but I always did. I've been paying into CPP since I was 18, including the last 22 years during which I was self-employed. I never skipped one year paying into CPP.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

Foxx88 said:


> _*RE comment above:*_ _"Your dad could be like other self employed people i know. They think they are beating the system by paying themselves dividends instead of a salary. Therefore skipping the CPP. Then not investing on their own and retiring with little to no nest egg."_
> 
> Maybe some self-employed people don't pay their CPP premiums, but I always did. I've been paying into CPP since I was 18, including the last 22 years during which I was self-employed. I never skipped one year paying into CPP.


Is there a (legal) way to avoid CPP premiums on self-employment income above the basic exemption, other than to incorporate?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

yousufj56 said:


> ... He has been a citizen since 1996. He's made contributions to CPP since 1999. Apparently the OAS papers indicated he started making contributions since 2003. How can I find out which date is actually correct?


Depends on which item you are talking about.

OAS is based on residency so "making contributions in 2003" does not make any sense. 


> The Old Age Security (OAS) program is the Government of Canada's largest pension program. It is funded out of the general tax revenues of the Government of Canada. This means that you do not pay into it directly.


 https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/publicpensions/cpp/old-age-security.html

I expect that getting citizenship should be the latest that residency starts counting. It is likely earlier but might need some documentation to prove it. For example, if he became a Canadian resident for ten year then applied for citizenship, OAS credits might have started in 1986. 

If you can get a hold of the OAS papers, you might have a better idea of what is being talked about. 


AltaRed has provided the link for getting a copy of what the gov't has on file for CPP payments. If he has a "My Account for Individuals", there is a link that will list by year the CPP info.
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-ag...services-individuals/account-individuals.html


Cheers


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Residency for OAS is counted from when someone was 'landed' Eclectic12. For example my wife entered Canada and was 'landed' as a Permanent Resident in 2006. She then became a citizen 5 years later. When she turned 65 in 2017, she was entitled to 11/40ths of the OAS payment or 1/40th for each year of residency since landing.

If someone no longer has their proof of landing, it isn't hard to get a copy. https://www.immigrationdirect.ca/blog/2017/10/19/how-to-replace-a-lost-record-of-landing/


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

So essentially we are saying the same thing ... that using the citizenship date to start counting OAS residence is not accurate.


Cheers


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

This is not difficult.

As per LTA above, OAS is based on residency and age. The amount is also based on income inasmuch as a portion of it can be 'clawed' back if your net income exceeds something like $75K. You can get it at 65 or you can defer until 70 to get a larger monthly amount.

CPP is similar to any other pension in that it is based on contributions over time-yours and the employers. As above, it is very easy to get a printout from Service Canada of your contributions. 

If you doubt the veracity of the report, dig out or request copies of you old tax returns/assessments. The CPP amounts should be there and should agree with the CPP statement. The amounts will also be on your T4 statements of income from your employer(s). 

You only get out of CPP what you and your employer put in. You can take it at 60 (reduced) or delay it to 70 (enhanced). It is not rocket science.

I have found Service Canada folks to be very helpful. On the phone, and on the occasions where I have gone to an office for personal assistance. IF you have an issue, start with them.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

OAS is something that most Canadian born citizens think they are entitled to in full and are not aware of the 'years of residence after age 18' criteria. This can result in a surprise for someone who has spent a lot of years outside of Canada before age 65. There are between age 18 and 65, only 47 qualifying years to work with. That means if you spend more than 7 years outside of Canada between 18-65, you will begin to lose 1/40th of the OAS payment for each year beyond that 7 year cushion.

So someone who has lived and worked in other countries for longer periods of time, gets a surprise when they apply for OAS and discover they do not have the necessary 40 years to qualify for full payment. Most people in their 30s, 40s and even 50s, pay no attention at all during those years to OAS qualifications and of course, those are the years when they are most likely to work in another country.

This will not matter of course to people who never work outside of Canada, but in my working life and circle, it was quite common to do so. There may be some here who have worked outside of Canada and are not aware of this criteria. I doubt for example that many employers point it out when asking someone to transfer to an overseas subsiduary for periods of time. All periods of 6 months or more must be counted out.

This can also bite early retirees in the butt. Suppose someone retires at 55 and then goes to live in Costa Rica or wherever. They apply at age 65 only to discover that the 10 years they have lived in Costa Rica must be counted out, resulting in their only getting a maximum of 37/40ths of OAS. An even earlier retirement and move overseas will decrease it even more obviously. If you look at retiree forums, this scenario is quite common. And of course it works in reverse for those who immigrate to Canada after age 18.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I found applying for OAS very interesting. Since I had retired early and had spent time living outside of Canada, I dutifully listed my time outside of Canada on my application. Then I received a letter asking me for 'proof' of my absences start/end times and even specified acceptable things like 'an airline boarding pass'. Who keeps boarding passes for decades?

So I wrote back to them and explained to them that there was no way I could provide proof of leaving and returning, they would have to take my word for it. Failing that, then I supposed they would have to decide I was lying about it and since I could not prove when I had left/returned, they would have to assume the only possible and logical assumption, that I had NOT left or returned. I heard no more about it and received notification as per my submitted application, as to what OAS I would qualify for.

Sometimes, bureaucracies can be extremely stupid. Asking me to prove my absences, what alternative does that leave them? Hilarious.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Not entirely true about years of residence, here is the quick Google source:
https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/publicpensions/cpp/old-age-security/eligibility.html

That said, when it comes to OAS, there are some very simple calculators to use and some great details to consider. Good luck!
https://themeasureofaplan.com/canadian-retirement-benefits-calculator-cpp-and-oas/


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

My Own Advisor said:


> Not entirely true about years of residence, here is the quick Google source:
> https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/publicpensions/cpp/old-age-security/eligibility.html
> 
> That said, when it comes to OAS, there are some very simple calculators to use and some great details to consider. Good luck!
> https://themeasureofaplan.com/canadian-retirement-benefits-calculator-cpp-and-oas/


I find such comments as you have made here My Own Advisor, annoying. If you want to say something is not 'entirely true' then COMMUNICATE just what is 'not entirely true', not leave it to the reader to get out their crystal ball to find out what you were referring to.

If you think there are some 'great details to consider', then say what those 'great details' you are referring to are. 

As it is, you have in fact communicated nothing at all. Communication effectively means that the person/s you are trying to communicate with, get the message you were trying to have them understand. If they don't get that message, you have failed to communicate effectively. Your comments above are a perfect example of ineffective communication. It doesn't matter what message you think you have given, all that matters is what message was received.


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## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> I find such comments as you have made here My Own Advisor, annoying. If you want to say something is not 'entirely true' then COMMUNICATE just what is 'not entirely true', not leave it to the reader to get out their crystal ball to find out what you were referring to.
> 
> If you think there are some 'great details to consider', then say what those 'great details' you are referring to are.
> 
> As it is, you have in fact communicated nothing at all. Communication effectively means that the person/s you are trying to communicate with, get the message you were trying to have them understand. If they don't get that message, you have failed to communicate effectively. Your comments above are a perfect example of ineffective communication. It doesn't matter what message you think you have given, all that matters is what message was received.


What is the point of nitpicking and berating someone for contributing to a thread? If the information provided does not suit you, why not just leave it at that instead of policing the members? Or create your own forum that you can be the King of and select members based on certain strict criteria such as minimal standards for command of the English language, effective communication, etc. Hell, request an essay to explain worthiness!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

diharv said:


> What is the point of nitpicking and berating someone for contributing to a thread? If the information provided does not suit you, why not just leave it at that instead of policing the members? Or create your own forum that you can be the King of and select members based on certain strict criteria such as minimal standards for command of the English language, effective communication, etc. Hell, request an essay to explain worthiness!


I am not berating someone for 'contributing' diharv. I am berating My Own Advisor for NOT contributing. But if you are convinced it was as contribution, then perhaps you could explain to me what the contribution actually was. What was 'not entirely true' and what are the 'great details to consider'? I'm all ears diharv?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> I am not berating someone for 'contributing' diharv. I am berating My Own Advisor for NOT contributing. But if you are convinced it was as contribution, then perhaps you could explain to me what the contribution actually was. What was 'not entirely true' and what are the 'great details to consider'? I'm all ears diharv?


Why berate anyone? Do you feel that superior or important that you think you can be the filter (gate) for what is said in a thread? I saw it as MOA taking the time to participate with some potentially helpful information. I suspect others did too. Even if not, what is the harm? Let it go and move on....


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> Why berate anyone? Do you feel that superior or important that you think you can be the filter (gate) for what is said in a thread? I saw it as MOA taking the time to participate with some potentially helpful information. I suspect others did too. Even if not, what is the harm? Let it go and move on....


Why bother to post telling me what to do? Let it go and move on AltaRed. Otherwise I will ask you the same question as I asked My Own Advisor and diharv, what 'helpful information' did My Own Advisor provide? I don't see any, I see 'not entirely true' with no 'helpful advice' as to WHAT was not entirely true and 'great details to consider' with no indication of WHAT details to consider.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

^ Good one! LOL


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> Why bother to post telling me what to do? Let it go and move on AltaRed. Otherwise I will ask you the same question as I asked My Own Advisor and diharv, what 'helpful information' did My Own Advisor provide? I don't see any, I see 'not entirely true' with no 'helpful advice' as to WHAT was not entirely true and 'great details to consider' with no indication of WHAT details to consider.



in reality MOA did provide a lot of helpful information, via the links he presented in the very post you keep on kvetching about.

it's OK to present links to resource material, exactly as MOA did. Sometimes it's not OK to copy & paste said material because of copyright or other proprietary claims on the resource text itself.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I liked the 'measure of a plan' site. It was interesting to see the the cost of deferral in current net present value terms.


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## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> I am not berating someone for 'contributing' diharv. I am berating My Own Advisor for NOT contributing. But if you are convinced it was as contribution, then perhaps you could explain to me what the contribution actually was. What was 'not entirely true' and what are the 'great details to consider'? I'm all ears diharv?


All ears. What a smartass comeback. Whether the information that MOA was alluding to was contributory or not to your satisfaction is up to MOA to defend and maybe he'll do that. My point was why berate anybody at all on a public forum for anything at all because their posts do not measure up to your your rules for content or syntax satisfactorily. You're the guy at the cocktail party who goes around correcting everyone's grammar I'll bet.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

diharv said:


> All ears. What a smartass comeback. Whether the information that MOA was alluding to was contributory or not to your satisfaction is up to MOA to defend and maybe he'll do that. My point was why berate anybody at all on a public forum for anything at all because their posts do not measure up to your your rules for content or syntax satisfactorily. You're the guy at the cocktail party who goes around correcting everyone's grammar I'll bet.


I agree it is up to My Own Advisor to defend if he so chooses. So let him do so if he wishes, without your trying to do it for him. You failed miserably at doing so anyway. AS for why berate anyone at all for anything, umm, because I consider it worth berating someone for would seem to make sense to me. Whether you consider it worth doing or not is your decision, whether I do or not is MY decision.


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