# What to do when your spouse won't pay their bills?



## dilbert789 (Apr 20, 2010)

A little background:

I'm a saver, she's a spender. To keep us from fighting about what we spend on our own things we each get an allowance of the same amount each month. We get $300 per month each. Gas, cell phone's, car payment and all joint bills don't come out of this amount. Yea, it's plenty.

Issue:
My wife is basically just ignoring her bills. She now has over $1300 in CC bills, and isn't even paying the minimum balance even though she easily can. I don't want to just let her hammer her credit rating, because when it comes time to renew our mortgage I believe this comes into play. I'm so frustrated with this because there's been multiple times where I've covered her bills with either our joint account or my own savings. After this I just get a 'thanks' and a couple months later it's back. 

I know I'm enabling her, however if I don't, I feel it will drag us both down with her in the end. To compound the issue she now has 'balance protection' on her credit card, opt in to add about 13% interest a year on top of the 24%, and it only pays off the credit card on death... Her credit card says it'll be 68 years to pay off at the minimum balance! 

I've tried talking to her over and over about this and she basically just shuts down and doesn't want me to tell her how to spend her money. If it didn't have the possibility to screw me over also, I'd let her keep digging...


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## balexis (Apr 4, 2009)

How about setting up a pre-authorized payment plan on the CC? That way the entire amount of the bill is automatically taken from the specified bank account on the day the payment is due.

However, this is a technological solution to what may be a deeper problem.


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

Do you have any bills that are in joint name with your wife? If you do, you may be at risk of your own credit history being effected as well. 

If your wife can't/won't step up, she is a grown adult and you cannot make her do anything she doesn't want to do, even if it is for her own good. 

I suggest you protect yourself by separating financially. Any bills that are necessities and effect you, you should pay - whether you can convince her to contribute financially to these obligations is another issue. 

Open separate accounts as joint accounts can be frozen/garnisheed if one of her creditors wins a judgement. 

Once you know that your butt is covered all you can do is let her manage her own finances and hope that she doesn't dig herself into a deep hole. 

You are right that if your wife is on the mortgage and you want to renegotiate the terms and conditions of your mortgage or move your mortgage at renewal that her credit history can effect your ability to negotiate favourable terms. 

Good Luck!


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## colossk (May 11, 2011)

dilbert789 said:


> I'm a saver, she's a spender. To keep us from fighting about what we spend on our own things we each get an allowance of the same amount each month. We get $300 per month each. Gas, cell phone's, car payment and all joint bills don't come out of this amount. *Yea, it's plenty.*


Everyone is different, what is plenty for you may not be plenty for her, have you considered that? Your basing your wants the same as hers.

Your financial situation also comes into play here. If you guys are maxing your RRSP, TFSA paying extra on your morgatge and still saving on top of that then all I cna say is don't sweat the small stuff because in that situation it really is "small stuff" However if your barely scraping by and paying interest on your CC every month and not saving then it becomes a rather large issue. Some people carry balances when they don't need to.

Also your attitude kinda sucks IMO, It's your wife and you'd let her keep digging her own hole? No wonder 50% of marriges end up in divorce. In the end it's both your holes she's digging because her debt is your debt when you are married. It may not effect you right away but down the road, her credit issues become yours if she's on the morgatge etc and thats not to mention she's your wife. Are you really going to let her drown herself in debt and you just sit idly by? Let her keep digging and watch a few years down the road when she cant get credit and cant stay afloat financially she turns to you for help, are you going to turn your back on her and say tough luck?

Have you tried talking to her? A serious talk, not one that ends up with fighting? Your situation sounds exactly like mine but financially it's not really an issue and we don't cary balances on out Credit cards. IF we were carying balances and scraping by I know I'd be sitting down and talking to her.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

This happened to me. Eventually (after 19years) I left her. New wife is a saver/budgetter like me. I am much happier now but it cost me millions to get out of the first marriage.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

Warning, Warning, Danger, Danger.

This is a huge problem, but it signifies other things rather than an airhead for a wife.

You are responsible for Her debts, either She pays them or you pay them, either way, they get paid.

Time for some frank and honest talks, starting with, honey we need to talk about this because it is affecting our relationship.


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## LondonHomes (Dec 29, 2010)

Rather than covering her expenses from your account.

Just get her passwords and pay her bills from her account. Perhaps she just doesn't like the hastle of paying the bills and wouldn't mind you doing it for her.


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## bmckay (Mar 10, 2011)

It's not your responsibility to pay her bills. Obviously a serious conversation is needed. Im of the opinion that if in a relationship both parties don't have similar view on finances it most likely won't work. You will continue to resent her.


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## dilbert789 (Apr 20, 2010)

colossk said:


> Everyone is different, what is plenty for you may not be plenty for her, have you considered that? Your basing your wants the same as hers.
> 
> Your financial situation also comes into play here. If you guys are maxing your RRSP, TFSA paying extra on your mortgage and still saving on top of that then all I can say is don't sweat the small stuff because in that situation it really is "small stuff" However if your barely scraping by and paying interest on your CC every month and not saving then it becomes a rather large issue. Some people carry balances when they don't need to.


We do pretty well, but there's not a huge amount left over at the end of the month. We have probably just over a grand, 600 to our spending accounts, and about 500 to our house improvement fund - deck/fence/furniture/whatever. We're not maxing our RRSP or TFSA's, or paying extra on the mortgage.



colossk said:


> Also your attitude kinda sucks IMO, It's your wife and you'd let her keep digging her own hole? No wonder 50% of marriages end up in divorce. In the end it's both your holes she's digging because her debt is your debt when you are married. It may not effect you right away but down the road, her credit issues become yours if she's on the mortgage etc and that's not to mention she's your wife. Are you really going to let her drown herself in debt and you just sit idly by? Let her keep digging and watch a few years down the road when she cant get credit and cant stay afloat financially she turns to you for help, are you going to turn your back on her and say tough luck?
> 
> Have you tried talking to her? A serious talk, not one that ends up with fighting? Your situation sounds exactly like mine but financially it's not really an issue and we don't carry balances on out Credit cards. IF we were carrying balances and scraping by I know I'd be sitting down and talking to her.


Yes, my attitude sucks. If you constantly keep getting bit, you start to not want to continue that cycle. I've tried over and over to help her to learn and change her habits but she doesn't really seem to care. If she turned to me for help paying down the debt I'd gladly help. I've done it in the past multiple times when she's expressed frustration, the problem is this repeating cycle where she just racks it back up and doesn't learn anything. When I do pay off her bills it then in turn pushes out my goals, or the goals we've outlined as a couple.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

Square Root said:


> This happened to me. Eventually (after 19years) I left her. New wife is a saver/budgetter like me. I am much happier now but it cost me millions to get out of the first marriage.


So that this does not happen to you.

May I suggest a cash alternative. Yep, pay off that cc for her and cut it up. Take both paychecks into the same account, have it pay for the mortgage and joint things like hydro, property taxes and such with automatic payments, or you make sure these get paid. Put the bank cards in a plastic container of water and put it in the freezer. Decide what each of you individually feels is a reasonable amount of cash to be able to spend, as OP mentioned, these may be different amounts.

Thats it. No racking up cc bills, when she is out of money, she is out until the next month. Same for you.

It will affect your relationship. You two need to have a serious talk about this.


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## colossk (May 11, 2011)

dilbert789 said:


> We do pretty well, but there's not a huge amount left over at the end of the month. We have probably just over a grand, 600 to our spending accounts, and about 500 to our house improvement fund - deck/fence/furniture/whatever. We're not maxing our RRSP or TFSA's, or paying extra on the mortgage.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, my attitude sucks. If you constantly keep getting bit, you start to not want to continue that cycle. I've tried over and over to help her to learn and change her habits but she doesn't really seem to care. If she turned to me for help paying down the debt I'd gladly help. I've done it in the past multiple times when she's expressed frustration, the problem is this repeating cycle where she just racks it back up and doesn't learn anything. When I do pay off her bills it then in turn pushes out my goals, or the goals we've outlined as a couple.


Than you need to sit down and have a serious talk with her, as this is obviously effecting your relationship and this is more than just a money issue, and express it to her that way


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

*Whose* attitude sucks? The OP has already said that he's tried talking to her about the situation and it doesn't help. By all means, give it one more try - make sure she realizes that her behaviour is destroying the marriage - but this woman needs more than talking to. She either needs psychiatric help, in which case he should make getting that help a condition of their staying together, or she is simply a self-centred user; if that's the case, the sooner he gets out of the marriage, the better off he'll be.

I speak from experience. I stayed in a similar situation for nearly 20 years before I gave up and left the marriage. I remarried twice after that and was widowed both times, but both those marriages were very happy ones, and the years after my divorce have been the best years of my life.


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## dilbert789 (Apr 20, 2010)

I think I'll try to do as suggested a bit more of a formal sit down and go over everything. I believe in her mind there's no hard consequence for not paying her bills on time. It's not like skipping paying your hydro, where they turn your lights off. They just charge her more interest. Her money issues trickle down from her mom who is also terrible with money. 

She's a smart woman and I think if I can approach it from a different angle I might be able to get through to her. If I can't get her to pay her own CC bills on time at the end of the month then maybe I'll have to do as LondonHomes suggested and start doing it for her.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Wait a minute. Is it the *spending* the OP objects to, or the late/unpaid bills, or both? 

If it is the late/unpaid bills (but NOT the spending), I am going to suggest that for the sake of marital harmony you just go ahead and pay those bills or arrange for them to be paid automatically from her account or your account or a joint account or *wherever.* She doesn't want to do it and/or doesn't care about late payments and interest accruing; you do, so you can go ahead and do something about this.

(My husband and I have very little discord about cleanliness standards. I think things should be cleaned on pretty much the same schedule and to the same level as he does. That said, there are a few housekeeping quirks that, if they are not done, drive me INSANE. However, I don't impose responsibility for those quirks on my spouse. If he happens to handle them in my preferred way - we are talking about not leaving the vacuum cleaner out, that level of quirk - great. If not, because it is MY issue, I just make sure the vacuum gets put away whenever I see it out and not in use. I'm going to suggest you handle this the same way, if that's all there is to it.)

If it is the spending AND the bills you are upset about, you are going to have to sit down and have some kind of come to Jesus talk about this, because that is a larger issue about joint goals. You will get lots of agreement - you already have - that she's spending too much, and you should save more, and yadda yadda. But people here are all likely to be of like mind, and your wife is entitled to have her own opinions and preferences. If you are unhappy about her spending because it affects your joint goals, then you are going to have to enrol her in some new ways of acting. Like you would about any other major issue in your marriage.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

It seems to me that it's not spending but not paying bills on time (and hefty interest and penalty as a consequence) that OP is worried about. I'd think that OP can arrange to have the credit card bills paid on time.


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## bmckay (Mar 10, 2011)

*Reminder to self - discuss money beforehand when going into next long-term relationship*


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

I still think it's a much bigger issue than simply not paying the bills on time. If that were the case, she would take a lesser amount for her share each month and ask him to pay the bills. I think it indicates a serious relationship problem and it spells disaster in the future if it's not resolved. I buried my head in the sand for twenty years before working up the courage to do something about my problem, and I don't recommend that to anyone.


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## colossk (May 11, 2011)

Karen said:


> *Whose* attitude sucks?


I think I made it quite clear who I was refering to.

When you make a comment along the lines of " if I wasn't afraid it would effect me, I'll let my wife keep digging her own hole" thats a sh**tty attitude to have towards someone you love and have chosen to spend the rest of your life with.

Your supposed to help the ones you love, not say "F**k em, let em keep digging"


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

He should probably post his questions on some other board that isn't all about saving money and financial security. All the answers here will just re-enforce what he probably already knows. 

Now I don't know of these other boards, because I am not a spender myself, but I would bet if we got the spouses side of the story we would hear how he never likes to spend money, how he doesn't understand that you need to spend money for quality, that he could die tomorrow and never get to spend his money and I am sure there are a lot more opinions on the silliness of not indulging yourself.

Obviously spenders and savers are not going to relate well with each other and in there lies the problem. If he wants to talk to her he may need to understand her language a little better. I doubt we have many translators here.


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## colossk (May 11, 2011)

Karen;65339 She either needs psychiatric help said:


> Many people are financially irrresponsible, that doesn't make them need psychiatric help, Thats a little reaching. It also doesn't make them a self -centred user. That sounds like some psycho babble a relationship counselor would say. Perhaps you are drawing conclusions with no basis based on your past experiences?
> 
> I do agree that this can cause long term problems to thier relationship if not resolved, things like this can fester over time, especially money issues


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

Amazingly my wife and I NEVER fight about money. We both are cheap and have the same goals. My last girlfriend before meeting my wife was terrible with money, racked up all kinds of debt, never had her half of our shared bills and lived beyond her means. It was a top 3 reason for me ending the relationship. I had to buy her out of my home as she was common law after I invited her to live with me and 2 years later I had to write her a big cheque to get her to leave plus pay off some credit cards I had foolishly given her. Money well spent and my lawyer said, "Son you have learned a hard lesson very early in life, consider yourself lucky".


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## Calgary_Girl (Apr 20, 2011)

Unfortunately, it may be too late for your wife to change her poor money habits since it sounds like it's ingrained in her if you've already had to bail her out once. 

If this were me, I would continue to let her charge up her credit card but in order to make sure that her bad credit rating (and trust me, it will be bad if she's not even making the minimum payment on her credit cards) doesn't affect you, I would make the minimum payment on her credit card just to keep the creditor happy and her credit score up.

Good luck to you!


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## ramy98 (Sep 20, 2009)

Definately her behaviour ha something to do with your relationship. There may be a chance she has psyc problems.

Good Luck OP


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Tough spot! good luck! def time to have a sit down,and get to the heart of the matter.You mentioned she comes fr a family that has poor money habits...double tough.

Now is the time to attack the problem head-on,it wont get better over time,like others were saying if its just missing due dates on bills that are due and you have the funds,that should be a easy fix(you take control).If its not,you got to get the ship back on course,and figure out why you and her are not on the same team,maybe in other areas of the realtionship where you are weak(ie:house cleaning or laundry ect),you could try making strides,to show her your willing to make efforts too.Money is a distant second,to realtionships esp if the both of you are in love,and this is just one area,and you dont have alot of other issues.I agree thou,cmf is prob not the right place for realtionship problem.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Money is one of the top (3?) reasons that people end up in divorce. One of the books that I found extremely helpful was ‘Smart Couples Finish Rich’, I think it was by David Bachman or someone like that. He has a whole bunch of books. I found this one the most helpful out of the bunch, as it could be read ideally as a couple, but there were lots of things one person could do even if their partner was resistance, or didn’t want anything to do with finance. Some of the key things it helped me understand, is that fights about money, are never about the money itself, but rather what money represents. Often even people themselves don’t necessarily understand why they do the things they do with money. This often comes from our past, and the emotional value that is attached to money. When couples begin to fight about money, it’s usually they are fighting about something bigger as the money is a symptom of how our values are formed. When our core beliefs are attacked, then people are not necessarily rational. This applies to both savers and spenders. Most of us who do save, aren’t doing because we want to die with a bunch of paper bills, rather there is an underlying reason to save. For those who are spenders, it’s not that they want to be poor or broke or in debt, but rather there is a stronger drive to have what ever it is.

It took me a long time to understand for myself what money meant. Then I had to understand what it meant to my husband, and really listen to why he did the things he did. This was really the hardest point. Once we had an understanding of we came from, then it was relatively easy for us to sit down, and describe our goals and future. Once we had a clearer idea of what kind of future we BOTH wanted, then we had to look at our current situation, and decide what things we were doing we that needed to be changed. I suggest that you really take the time and find out money wise what is motivating the two of you, and them figure out what it is you want. The book was really great in outlining each step that could be done. 

It can be really frustrating, but I am sure your wife is going through the same frustrations. In the meantime, you and her are in this together, so what she does impacts you too. I suggest that you pin point what is really bothering you. Is it the spending or the interest being paid or something else? Once you figure this, then you can take a look at some solutions. Don’t worry so much about being right, but rather solving the issue. I find that quite often I am right (or at least believe I am), but I am learning being right, and solving the problem are two very different things.


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## dilbert789 (Apr 20, 2010)

CanadianCapitalist said:


> It seems to me that it's not spending but not paying bills on time (and hefty interest and penalty as a consequence) that OP is worried about. I'd think that OP can arrange to have the credit card bills paid on time.


The issue really is as simple as this. I don't care what she spends her 'spending /allowance' money on. I don't really care in the end if she has 10k on her credit card and all she can afford to do is pay the minimum amount. That's her spending money and she can spend it how she wants. (Ok, I do care. But it's her money and she's not a kid). We organized our finances like this because we know we differ largely in how we spend. This alone has almost eliminated any arguing about personal spending.

I pay all of our joint bills so I'm not worried about the really important things like house/heat/power. She just has two of her own credit cards that she takes care of. I think I'll see if I can get her to setup an automatic $50 every two weeks going onto the credit card. This way her minimum will always be paid, plus a little bit. At least this way it'll keep her already damaged credit rating. 

The issue I see with this is why we have our separate 'spending allowances' in the first place. I was telling her how to spend her money, when I didn't really want to, and she REALLY didn't want to hear it. I'll again be telling her what to do, but I think I can suggest it nicely... 

Thanks everyone for the comments. There's been a few suggestions here that I hadn't thought of that I'm going to try. 

Worst case scenario is that she says no. I'll just add a bit extra to our budget and set it up from my account.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

colossk said:


> Also your attitude kinda sucks IMO, It's your wife and you'd let her keep digging her own hole? No wonder 50% of marriges end up in divorce.


I would, if I was married. 

And I don't think of it as having a "sucky" attitude. It's called looking out for yourself. *dilbert* mentioned he has tried to help her numerous times before. Why _shouldn't_ he let her keep digging? She is being (and I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful, dilbert) extremely "not so smart".

The woman has money to pay the minimum monthly balances, but she wont? That's just... 





dilbert789 said:


> I've tried talking to her over and over about this and she basically just shuts down and doesn't want me to tell her how to spend her money. If it didn't have the possibility to screw me over also, I'd let her keep digging...


I know its your wife so it's kind of a touchy subject. However, if it was my girlfriend/wife, I would tell her to smarten up. There would be no conversation. There would be no talk. You've already tried to address the situation before and you have helped her in the past. I would immediately separate all finances and let her go on her own.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

colossk said:


> Also your attitude kinda sucks IMO, It's your wife and you'd let her keep digging her own hole? No wonder 50% of marriges end up in divorce. In the end it's both your holes she's digging because her debt is your debt when you are married. It may not effect you right away but down the road, her credit issues become yours if she's on the morgatge etc and thats not to mention she's your wife. Are you really going to let her drown herself in debt and you just sit idly by? Let her keep digging and watch a few years down the road when she cant get credit and cant stay afloat financially she turns to you for help, are you going to turn your back on her and say tough luck?


This paragraph cracked me up. First, you call the OP out for a poor attitude. Then you point out a bunch of reasons that should stress the OP out even more and worsen their attitude. 

Why are you in such a bad mood? Just because your spouse is ruining your life, crippling your credit rating, destroying your future...hey, you have a bad attitude, did you know that??? 

I do agree that there needs to be a serious talk and a serious clearing of the air. This is clearly an on-going issue with history, hence the allowances. The OP mentioned he's attempted this talk but been ignored, but that's not enough now. This talk has to happen, no matter what your spouse may do to avoid it.

PA, as always, offers some solid advice about trying to understand what the money actually represents to your wife. I think it would also help if you understood what it meant, to try and find some common ground you two can build from.

I'd also seriously encourage every serious couple to have the money talk before it gets too too serious. Not only is it important to develop some type of understanding and agreement, but it also shows the relationship is mature enough to handle it. I mean, if you aren't even comfortable enough to talk about your future together financially and how to make that work, well, I worry.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

My husband and I got married before we had any money worth arguing over . I am horrible with paying the bills ,i will pay the hydro twice on the computer and next month we get a late notice from Enbridge lol

It sounds like after the bills with $1000 a month left over it is fair to split it down the middle ,Obviously she rakes up her credit card to supplement the budget you guys agreed to.Get her to cancel that credit protection and set her up on a goal to get them paid off.If she feels she is ok to pay them off in 2-3 years show her what needs to be paid to reach that goal.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

dilbert789 said:


> The issue I see with this is why we have our separate 'spending allowances' in the first place. I was telling her how to spend her money, when I didn't really want to, and she REALLY didn't want to hear it. I'll again be telling her what to do, but I think I can suggest it nicely...
> .


You've listed many grips in your posts, but then you say you didn't care what she does. I do believe that you really do care, and you are frustrated. You have seperated your finances because you no longer want to fight about it any more. This is really just putting a bandage on the problem, and you're not getting to the root. 

You deep down want her value money the same way as you do. However, I'm not sure if you understand how she views money either. By telling her what to do, which you have already indicted that she doesn't want to hear it, you are also showing that you are not listening to her. My idea of insanity is doing the same thing over, and expecting different results. I could just hear her thinking that again YOU don't get it, then the cycle starts over.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why you are frustrated, I would be too. It took me a few years, and attempts to figure out the finances with my spouse. It was when I realized that before I could change his behaviour, I had to really try and understand it. I still don't agree with many of the things he does, but at least I understand it... sort of. That has allowed me to put the boundaries around financials, and articulate them in ways he understands, that are not money related. 

You don't need to agree with everything, but you need to gain enough of an understanding to see if your goals and future can still be somewhat aligned. If this is going to be so far off for the two of you, and neither is willing to change, then you're heading for some major trouble later on.

Do you have kids?


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## colossk (May 11, 2011)

financialnoob said:


> This paragraph cracked me up. First, you call the OP out for a poor attitude. Then you point out a bunch of reasons that should stress the OP out even more and worsen their attitude.


Obviously he's entitled to be frustrated, he has every right to be. He has every reason to be upset. When I said poor attitude I was refering to the "I'd let her keep diggin line" not the fact that he he's clearly upset which is 100% understandable.

I can't fathom letting my wife keep diggin her own hole turning my head and saying oh well it's not my problem, let her screw herself over. I have 3 kids, I couldn't imagine doing that to them either. I'd to everything possible to help them whether would effect my credit or not is irrelevant.

OP has clearly stated that he would let her keep digging, the only reason why he hasn't is because it can effect his credit.  If thats not a poor attitude to have with someone you are supposed to love and spend the rest of your life with, then I don't know what is.


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## Syph007 (May 2, 2011)

Money issues are what half the divorced couples site for a contributing factor. It's a serious issue. 

I'd have a serious talk about it and try to at least get across the point of how serious this is. If you cant take steps to at least mitigate your exposure to her damaging ways, you have to ask yourself if you still want to be with someone so irresponsible.


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## dilbert789 (Apr 20, 2010)

I love when I can post on this board and get people all fired up! 

I'll try to answer some of the new questions:

We have a son, he just turned one. Wife just started back to work. This isn't something that started while she was on mat leave. The cycles have been going for years. Being on mat leave just accelerated this cycle as we both had to drop our spending money to compensate for the temporary drop in our total income. 

It's hard to express how you really feel correctly over the internet (surprise!). I'm not angry or upset with her, and I'm a long, long way from wanting a divorce. I am really just frustrated with her attitude toward debt and the payments. I think this is simply because it doesn't align with mine. Mine = Debt is bad; Hers = Debt is ok, not really a good thing, but ok. If she wants to carry debt, and in turn pay extra for things, then that is her choice. Her credit card limits, and her access to debt is relatively limited (~5k total), so I'm not all that worried about her racking up a huge amount and burying our family. The frustration comes when she decides to skip paying a couple months. If she was paying off that minimum amount each month I would still be thinking about the amount she spends on interest, however it's hers to deal with. 

I know I've drawn some pretty strong 'lines in the sand' in regards with 'It's her debt/she can keep digging/...' It's not like I'm going to completely walk away and let rack up a huge amount of debt and then leave her there. I love my wife and I'm not going to just stand by and watch her do something that is going to hurt her or our family for a long time to come. At the same time, I'm the one who ends up bailing her out time and time again before she feels the pinch. On a smaller scale I do the same with my son, if he's trying to do something you know won't work, but he's not going to hurt himself, you let him try and learn from it. Then you can show him another way. 

Thanks again everyone for your comments!


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

You do have that knack, dilbert.  More than most here, I would say. lol

Anyway, I think some of the responses aren't really fair towards the OP. I'm disappointed that the focus of the replies seemed to be on the op's apparent "Attitude" while not saying enough to admonish the one who isn't paying their bills. Having been in a similar situation, I completely understand how the OP feels. Why should he get calls from collections agencies and have his credit vulnerable because of her slack attitude towards paying her own bills? That's where the focus needs to be. He is merely reacting to the unfair treatment he is receiving.


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## Sustainable PF (Nov 5, 2010)

It has been said, but money problems - and this is a money problem - lead to a ton of divorces. My folks couldn't agree on money and split 25 or so years ago.

I can't see this ending well. Over time you will most likely end up feeling used, disrespected, unheard and beaten down to a point you just can't deal with her inability/unwillingness to change her destructive habits. With luck your joint financial situation will not be pummelled into the ground entirely at that point - but if you continue to prop her up and enable her behaviour that is exactly what will end up happening.

Just hope your son hasn't picked up too many materialistic, consumerist, commercialized habits prior to the explosion.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

I can't understand people who think situations like this are simply a matter of different ways of looking at life, not a matter of right or wrong. To me, it's just plain wrong to owe money and not repay it, unless circumstances have changed to the point that you no longer have the ability to do so - not the case here. So, in this case, the wife is in the wrong, period. She's the one who takes on financial responsibilities and does not honour them. It doesn't say much for her character.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I am posting what I would do in this situation ,if she owes less than $5000 and her actions are going to affect her credit and this credit rating will determine the interest rate you pay on mortgages and credit lines in future I would Pay minimum amount on each card myself , have her immediate give up the credit cards to you that she will never see again and Deduct the minimum payments from each of your budgets so you are paying half and so is she.
A maxed out credit is no use to her in her wallet ,have her use cash only as she obviously can't budget.I would go a step further and if possible pay the cards off with a lower interest option as at end of the day this interest she is paying is coming from both of you.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Karen said:


> So, in this case, the wife is in the wrong, period. She's the one who takes on financial responsibilities and does not honour them. It doesn't say much for her character.


Does your answer change if the foregone payment is small and does not materially affect their joint lifestyle (leaving aside, for the moment, the issue of potential deleterious effects on their credit rating)?

What if the "wasted" money on interest was instead being spent on things the original poster thought were frivolous - like expensive bars of soap (a past example from this board) or eating out or manicures or whatever? (and THIS theoretical question leaves aside the issue of foregone minimum payments.)

My reading of credit card agreements is not that you agree to pay the minimum balance on time every month - the agreement is that you _either make the minimum payments on time every month, OR the credit card company charges you penalties and interest_. The credit rating issue is between you and the credit rating agency, not you and the credit card issuer. 

Viewed in that way, this person is not breaking an agreement she's made. She's failing to pay the minimum balance when due, which causes her to incur late fees/penalties and charges. And she obviously does not care about the late fees etc.; at least not enough for her to change her behaviour. But I suspect in her world, she's made absolutely no agreement to pay the charges on time. 

I said earlier that my husband and I are on the same page with respect to finances, and I can't imagine this conversation arising in my household. But I find the degree of absolutism being expressed in this thread surprising. 

Yeah, late payments are an expense to be avoided and credit card interest rates are high and should also be avoided. But...in the grand scheme of things, I don't get the leap *based on the evidence we have* to "this is a serious problem for your marriage" and "this tells me this person is of unsavoury character." I might go so far as to say that this MIGHT be an issue for their marriage, but I would never presume to know or make a judgement call based on the scant set of facts we have.


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## dilbert789 (Apr 20, 2010)

In reply to moneygal:
If the wasted money spent on interest was spent on her expensive soap, that would be fine. At least she'd be getting something she likes for it! If I could guarantee that the late payments wouldn't effect her credit rating I wouldn't worry about them. However I'm 99% sure they do. Maybe I should call and ask about this... It is, and isn't a problem for the marriage. It bugs me, but we can weather any financial side effects from this fine. 

In reply to marina628:
This is basically what I meant when I say dig herself into a hole. That hole has a hard layer known as her her credit limit, eventually she'll hit the limit and she can't go any further. At that point something has to give, and I'll be there again with my hand out willing to help when she needs it.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Let me try again to express my point of view on this, MoneyGal. It seems to me that many posters are blaming the OP for not understanding his wife's attitude towards money, rather than putting the responsibility on the wife. She is the one who is apparently not upholding her end of the agreement she has made with her husband as to who is responsible for specific expenses. That, to me, shows a serious lack of respect for him, which does not speak well of her character, nor does it bode well for their marriage.

As I said in an earlier post, I put up with this attitude in my first marriage for nearly 20 years, admittedly a much more serious case than this one is so far, and that has undoubtedly affected my attitude. For years I made excuses for my husband because I didn't want to face what admitting my concerns would do to my marriage. But the lack of respect for me and my values accelerated to the point where I could no longer ignore them, and that's when I faced reality, which eventually led to our divorce. (That's an oversimplification, of course.) 

Our OP says his wife's behaviour doesn't really bother him, but I question that - why did he post about it in the first place if it if it doesn't concern him? I wonder if he's in denial, as I was for so many years. He certainly isn't contemplating divorce, nor should he be at this stage; he's trying to figure out how to resolve their problem in a constructive way, and good for him. But it takes both of them acknowledging there is a problem before it can be resolved and, if she continues her refusal to face that fact, it will eventually start to affect his respect for her and, judging by my experience, that will be the beginning of the end.

Sorry - I'm rambling.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

dilbert789 said:


> If I could guarantee that the late payments wouldn't effect her credit rating I wouldn't worry about them. However I'm 99% sure they do.


They do.



dilbert789 said:


> That hole has a hard layer known as her her credit limit, eventually she'll hit the limit and she can't go any further. At that point something has to give, and I'll be there again with my hand out willing to help when she needs it.


I don't think you should bail her out anymore.

All of that money she is paying in interest could be going towards your sons RESP. She is not looking out for the best interests of herself, or her family. You are part of that family. And that is an issue.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

colossk: Lots of people say things they don't mean out of frustration or anger. I think you're taking it way beyond what it was meant to be.

And quite frankly, sometimes people have to screw up before they learn their lessons. Sometimes you can try to help someone, and go way beyond reasonable measures to do so, and still be ignored and rejected. It's natural to feel frustration and anger at a recurring issue that you tried your best to prevent.

I'm not saying it's the ideal response, but it's perfectly natural and totally understandable and hardly worth condemnation.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

As usual, I agree 100% with Karen. Sharp gal.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Thank you, TRM!


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## cannon_fodder (Apr 3, 2009)

KaeJS said:


> All of that money she is paying in interest could be going towards your sons RESP. She is not looking out for the best interests of herself, or her family. You are part of that family. And that is an issue.


I think it would be interesting to know the wife's reaction to the fact that all penalties and interest charges over the past year could have helped (began?) funding their child's education rather than the CC's top and bottom lines. 

Who is more important? As dilbert said, that expense provides no benefit to the family and is only an obstacle to the family's financial well-being.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

And it's an irritant for the relationship with the OP.

But how do we solve the problem? The OP seems to have tried communicating and that failed. So now what? If they don't resolve this there will eventually be a 'blow up' over this.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

cannon_fodder said:


> I think it would be interesting to know the wife's reaction to the fact that all penalties and interest charges over the past year could have helped (began?) funding their child's education rather than the CC's top and bottom lines.
> 
> Who is more important? As dilbert said, that expense provides no benefit to the family and is only an obstacle to the family's financial well-being.


Good point. Maybe she has no interest in changing her ways, on her own or with your help. But being a new mom, with a little one around the house, perhaps if she saw what the $ in interest charges could do for his education or future, it may have more of an impact.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I suspect that you have a much larger concern.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

When you challenge someone on something as personal as money, they will get defensive and even if you are right, instead of listening they are only thinking of a rebuttal instead. This spirals into an irrational emotional debate that solves nothing. Even if you are right there's no way to get that across once it gets emotional the blood leave the rational part of the brain. If people feel they are being controlled they will actually spend more in retaliation. Passive aggressively? If you pay the bills in the end they may realize you're right but won't admit it to themselves. Addiction?

Conflict management 101 from what I can remember

Money is pretty touchy subject I would try to find a professional to explain basic finances to her or get a professional to explain what I tried above. I think once it spirals to a fight it will always be a fight and it's better to seek help sooner than later. Maybe it will pay dividends in future conflicts? All conflicts play out about the exact same, human nature is interesting that way. If both sides know this though it does help




financialnoob said:


> colossk: Lots of people say things they don't mean out of frustration or anger. I think you're taking it way beyond what it was meant to be.
> 
> And quite frankly, sometimes people have to screw up before they learn their lessons. Sometimes you can try to help someone, and go way beyond reasonable measures to do so, and still be ignored and rejected. It's natural to feel frustration and anger at a recurring issue that you tried your best to prevent.
> 
> I'm not saying it's the ideal response, but it's perfectly natural and totally understandable and hardly worth condemnation.


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## tombiosis (Dec 18, 2010)

Been there OP...!
spent 8 years digging a woman out of debt (that was mostly amassed before we met), we had a son, and when I finally had the mtg. down to 5 figures, ready to plan our first holiday etc...and whamo! caught her cheating...
I got out of it pretty much unscathed, as we were only common law, but had we been married things would have been much worse.
I've been doing the single dad thing, building wealth...no debts except mtg...and I get along with her just fine now because we share a son...she re-married and is in debt again beyond belief I suspect...
I believe that some people just don't care about debt...they are programmed differently I guess...For myself, I can barely sleep if I owe someone money...
Only advice I can offer, aside from what has been said already, is be very careful!
peace


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## canehdianman (Apr 7, 2009)

This thread has renewed my appreciation for my fiancée! She's not as financially nerdy as me, but she's a saver.

I think she's getting some flowers tonight!!!


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## Dave (Apr 5, 2009)

I agree with a few others: beware, danger ahead.

I really like Cal s suggestion: take away all her credit cards. Pay expenses from a joint account, and give her cash for personnal expenses. 

Now, if she is sincere about both of you staying toghether as a family and getting ahead, it will work out. However, if she does not care, you might get in trouble even if she agrees. I hard stories of similar situations with the husband giving cash to irresponsible wife. Wife opened multiple credit card accounts behind his back and sent bills to her parents address so he does not find out. End result = crushing debt, lots of angst & divorce.

I wish you all the best, but be careful.

Dave


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## bmckay (Mar 10, 2011)

Treat her like a child: take away her credit cards, pay the bills for her, and give her a weekly allowance.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I can't tell if people are being serious about treating his grown wife, and mother of his child like a child herself. Don't get more wrong, I don't think she is acting responsible or very grown up. However, the OP and his wife have already had issues with him trying to control the spending, hence why they are at this stage. Unless she is okay with OP making the spending decisions, treating her like this was cause a lot of tension.

She needs to come to the understanding of the impact that her actions are having. It could happen that she hits some sore of epiphany, or has a moment of clarity on her own (which I am thinking unlikely), or she is going to need a lot of help getting there.

Until OP gets to the underlying cause, and gets her to change her views, nothing it going to change. Using the child is a good way to reframe things though. This gives a new reason for change, and that might be a motivator.


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## Tom Dl (Feb 15, 2011)

I read P 1,2,3, & 6, so I hope I got it all.

I would ask myself what she would be like if she was on her own. The point being is she a disaster area, or just someone with a different vibe. I run a small ballance on my credit card. Over the years I have found that it helps me control my spending. Every time I clean it up (which is something I have 200-1 savings to do at any time I want to) I just run it gradually back up. When I started out poor I was perfect on my CC. I don't have a budget either, I can feel where I am. I have made lots of money, I have huge savings, etc... I do very well, I am just saying I have a different way with money. Most of my approach is more rational than the above. But often super high perfromance comes from learning your vibe. I used to golf a lot, and one thing we did was learn to estimate yardage, and sellect clubs based on their carry, etc... But it worked even better to match up head yardage (includes your propensity for eror) with the club performance. Why would one learn to estimate the wrong yardeage? Because it works better for the given individual.

If she is basically sound, but just not up to your level, and except when you bud in it is her money, then you are the probably the problem. If she is at the point where she is really dragging the finances down by any measure, then it is her problem, she has to change.

Remember some partners are expensive. Which is fine if they are actually worth it. I wouldn't marry anyone who wasn't worth it if the needle changed a few percent. I want a value partner at some level. If you push this thing it can get radically more expensive than it currently is. You are talking about 300 a month. Try going for a realtionship where it is 300 an hour.

Also consider that without being psycho she may have a wide variety of reasons for her behaviour. Maybe she senses your cheapness (a positive in my mind), and pushes the boundaries to test how much you value her. In which case a more steady supply of diamonds within a new budget might work. Or maybe she lacks security, and doesn't pay her cc because she feels richer when she doesn't. That is very common, and counted on by the banks. The banks secretly focus group people who don't pay their ballances to see how they can spread the phenomenon. They exploit all kinds of ****** in people's basic instincts. So bottom line, you can't prescribe a solution until you understand what the real problem is, and you may be a bigger part of the problem that your generally straightforward approach suggests. I budget based only on your needs is not a real budget. Maybe you should make a whole lot more money...


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## dilbert789 (Apr 20, 2010)

Tom, I think with this line "Or maybe she lacks security, and doesn't pay her cc because she feels richer when she doesn't. " You hit the nail on the head.

I was pretty sure she was feeling like I was holding all of the purse strings pretty tightly and asked her on the weekend 

Me:So how much spending money do you think you need to have a month? 
Her: $450, some months it's more, others less. but I think 450. 
Me: Ok.. I think that seems a bit high, but it's doable. Our home improvement fund may need to give some, but it's doable. 
Her: really?
Me: If you take out the amount of interest you are paying every month to your credit card you probably only need like $400 and you would still have the same amount to spend each month.
Her: *straight face* 
Me: You do realize you are paying almost $50 a month in interest right?
Her: *straight face, pause* Really? 
Me: Yes. And you have a $7 fee every month from that awesome Scotia checking account because you don't keep the minimum $2500 in it. 
Her: Oh.... hmmm. 

Something else distracted us at this point and the conversation quietly ended, but I think she's started to get the picture and may be coming to the light side. In the end I think that I need to play around with our budget a bit to see where it all falls out. Apparently compromise doesn't mean I get my way completely... 

As an aside, I hope that most of the comments of 'treat her like a child' are jokes. If not, I'm not surprised that the divorce rate over money is so high...


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## realist (Apr 8, 2011)

dilbert;
It sounds like step 1 is making her realize the consequences of her actions. A lot of the posts I think take the stance that you have done this and she has not changed her actions. 

If once you have made it clear that she is incurring consequences for herself (e.g. the interest, the bank fees etc.) and both of you as a couple (e.g mortgage implications) then you need to start thinking of what to do about that.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

dilbert789 said:


> As an aside, I hope that most of the comments of 'treat her like a child' are jokes. If not, I'm not surprised that the divorce rate over money is so high...


I presume those commenters are also exercising a minimum of 1 hour a day, flossing for two minutes a day and none of them smoke or consume more than a few alcoholic beverages per week, etc.


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## tombiosis (Dec 18, 2010)

Well, it sounds like you really want to keep her...so compromising is good...let me ask you Dilbert, when you have argued in the past about money, has the argument ever ended with her saying "whatever!" and ending all conversation?
just curious...


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## dilbert789 (Apr 20, 2010)

tombiosis said:


> Well, it sounds like you really want to keep her...so compromising is good...let me ask you Dilbert, when you have argued in the past about money, has the argument ever ended with her saying "whatever!" and ending all conversation?
> just curious...


Yes, but... She'll usually bring the conversation back up after a bit of a cool down period. It's better to take a break if you're getting too emotional about it.


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## tombiosis (Dec 18, 2010)

dilbert789 said:


> Yes, but... She'll usually bring the conversation back up after a bit of a cool down period. It's better to take a break if you're getting too emotional about it.


hmmmm,
maybe you're married to my ex! Is she italian?

best of luck to you,
Peace


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## cj184 (Jul 25, 2012)

*Thank You All Very Much!*



tombiosis said:


> hmmmm,
> maybe you're married to my ex! Is she italian?
> 
> best of luck to you,
> Peace


I am in a situation similar to many of you. Thank you for all of the good advice that has been posted. I will take some of those ideas to my wife and have a good long talk with her to get our situation straightened out.


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## joncnca (Jul 12, 2009)

i think anyone who's married will know that you can't just 'take the credit card' from a spouse...especially if that person already doesn't have great money management skills. luckily i don't have this issue with my own spouse, but i've seen it happen before. that credit card is like a part of their identity, they'll fight you to the bitter end to keep it, unless there's a mental switch.

i liked that idea of calculating what's spent on interest, the opportunity cost associated with that money (RESP, etc.), and printing it out in a clear, easy to follow explanation of figures. if the person is rational, this MAY help them see that a lot of money is wasted, and they'll change their behaviour. that won't always work, especially if the person is in denial about having poor spending habits. 

but i like that the OP is willing to adjust the home renovation fund, as acknowledgement that perhaps his wife has a different level of need for spending money. i think it shows respect for HER. just don't let it get out of hand, or else she'll lose respect for YOU. don't forgo your (collective) long term goals, but i think being willing to make adjustments and 'compromises' is a part of marriage, even if it's not technically 'fair'

for single people, i think the finance talk is imperative. lot harder to address this after the wedding. and as many have you stated, lots of marital distress is rooted in financial disharmony. 

i think paying off the spouse's bill is too much of an enabler. but certainly, you're married and have a child, so you have to try and help her out. some minor compromises notwithstanding, remember that money is usually not the solution to money problems.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Well finances are often a big problem in relationships.

I, like most others think you're right and she's wrong. But that's simplistic, judgemental etc.

Maybe she doesn't think or really care about money, and doesn't understand why you think it is so important to monitor control and keep track of. 

What I see in your post that is most important isn't her behaviour, it's that she doesn't seem to grasp how important this is to YOU.
If it's important to YOU, it should matter to HER, at least a little bit. There could also be some push back against being "controlled", but I don't know her history.

I think the discussion has to be about how this behaviour makes you feel, ie it's emotionally draining to see this situation play out this way. She very well might not grasp that it's an actual problem for you, since it apparently isn't an issue for her.


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## Doug2000 (Apr 6, 2011)

dilbert789 said:


> A little background:
> 
> I'm a saver, she's a spender. To keep us from fighting about what we spend on our own things we each get an allowance of the same amount each month. We get $300 per month each. Gas, cell phone's, car payment and all joint bills don't come out of this amount. Yea, it's plenty.
> 
> ...


So What happened?

I'm in the same vote, but have been successful at cutting up the credit card and limiting access to our credit line. If you don't make progress, go see a divorce lawyer. I know he's going to tell you to keep detailed banking records for the judge. Doing research into this matter, I learned judges will take this into consideration when splitting assets.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Consider having her lower her credit limit and resign yourself to the fact she will always have a max balance on it , if it is only $500 limit or even $1000 she cant do much damage to the finances.Divorcing over a small debt like this is ridiculous suggestion but you are correct her poor credit may affect mortgage renewals etc so better you hit her with that reality hammer .She can still turn it around if she can keep the card paid off for 3-6 months.


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

I think the divorce suggestion relates to the deeper root issues where they are not communicating, trusting, and valuing one another. 

What about a prepaid credit card?


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