# I'm in a bit of a pickle right now...



## Money4life (May 17, 2012)

Hello all,

My wife's parents haven't been having been doing well health wise for the past few years but it has worsened since the beginning of the year. My father-in-law, who is 70, has COPD (lung disease) and has been hospitalized twice so far in the past 9 months. He now needs an oxygen tank while doing anything strenuous. My mother-in-law, who is 60, has battled through a mental illness all of her life but it has recently worsened which resulted in her not being able to work since January. She has applied for long-term disability. They both speak broken English (not their native-tongue) and live together in Hamilton. They cannot take care of themselves very well and often make some questionable decisions.

My wife and I have lived and worked in Toronto for the last four years. I make $57,400 a year and she makes $37,500 a year. We are currently renting a one bedroom apartment in a prime location in the city. The recent events regarding my in-laws has caused worry and we feel that it may be best if they moved in with us. The problem is that I don't think we are ready to buy a house but I'm not sure if renting a larger unit would be a better decision either. We have a combined $65,000 in our savings accounts right now. We have another $51K combined in our TFSAs but we would rather not touch that money (they are tied to long term investments). Ditto with our RRSPs. We just got married two months ago and haven't really "experienced life" yet (we haven't went on our honeymoon or had a real vacation together). My wife has never even been out of the country before. In addition to not having enough money to buy a nice piece of property, we are concerned that we would be throwing away the prime years of our lives by making mortgage payments and not being able to enjoy ourselves. We feel that buying a house would benefit my in-laws more than ourselves, at least in the short term. They have also been difficult and have insisted that they bring all of the furniture whenever we do decide to move in together so space could be an issue. Speaking of my in-laws, they live in a rough area of Hamilton and have not maintained their house properly over the years. I think they would be lucky to get $100K for their property. On top of potentially buying a house, we're going to have to worry about selling a house. We are not sure how we are going to be able to coordinate this together but hopefully taking baby steps will do the trick. My in-laws have discussed helping us out with our down-payment but they have their own debts and finances to get straightened. They recently brought a new car spontaneously at an unknown price and interest rate so we would rather them get that dealt with first. 

The biggest question is determining whether we want to continue to rent in Toronto...or to buy a house in Toronto/Hamilton. From a price standpoint, the housing market is very attractive in Hamilton but I'm afraid that the commute would kill us. Considering that we are the ones that are working, it would probably make sense to live in Toronto. My next question is: how much can we actually afford? I've considered paying a visit to a mortgage broker to see what kind of mortgage we would be able to comfortably get but it would probably be wise to get our credit scores first. I should note that my wife and I probably have excellent credit scores but my in-laws will undoubtedly have terrible credit scores. I fear that this will hurt our chances in finding a place to rent so we might have to buy a house (and have it only signed with our names).

My apologies for the long post but I'm just looking for some direction. 

Thank you.


----------



## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Although a bit dark but with the health issues it sounds as if this joint living arrangement might be fairly temporary. It sounds like there is a chance that your father in law may be short on time and your mother in law may need assisted living in the not too distant future. Dark I know but buying a house, particularly now, needs a long time horizon to be worth it. 

There is nothing wrong with renting and it sounds like you are an ideal candidate for it. I mean why buy? Is it cheaper? Is it THAT much cheaper? I'm guessing not (I would be surprised if it wasn't the other way around once a full accounting was done). Don't flush your like down by setting up commuting either, that's dumb.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

It sounds like they're not in great shape, but they're not ready to admit it.
You seem to think that their financial behaviour is irresponsible, and I wouldn't count on them for any money at all.

If they sold the house, they'd insist they own part of your new house and want control how things are done, they might not be able to provide any money to help you, and might not even if they could (it IS their money).
Finally at your income level, a decent house for you and her parents (do you see kids in your future) in a nice area, within a reasonable commute is too expensive for you as a couple. It just sounds no win, admittedly I'm a pessimist.

You should offer guidance and try to understand their situation, but I wouldn't start offering money or too much help, until they understand and realize their situation. 

Most importantly, take care of yourself, financially and emotionally, *you can't help them if you aren't taking care of yourself. *
Don't deplete your savings, or embark on a home form them, if you can't afford it and it won't even be appreciated. Finally what if your parents need help in the future?


----------



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

what a thoughtful & concerned son-in-law you are!

i feel hesitant writing this message since it's not really about $$ at all, therefore i might be intruding. If so, please forgive. It's only because you posted, so i'm replying as best i can.

i believe someone has to wake the parents-in-law up a bit. Things are not good healthwise & they should be prevented from transferring all their problems as a huge burden onto yourselves.

speaking of yourselves, congratulations on your marriage & i hope you will have a fabulous honeymoon, perhaps not this year, but fairly soon! perhaps as soon as an appropriate plan for the parents-in-law has been developed!

who can help to deliver the message to the parents-in-law that they need to sell the house, sell or dispose of most of the furniture, & look for some kind of senior or assisted living arrangement? there are long waiting lists for accommodation at most price levels, so the way i see it, there's no time to waste.

what other resources are in the picture? does your wife have siblings who could unite to persuade the parents that the time has come to search for elder housing? do they attend church, is there a minister/priest you could recruit? a cultural centre? a seniors' centre? can you find social workers in private practice whom you could hire to help evaluate the situation? sometimes messages to resistant elderly people need to be repeated over & over & over again.

it's possible i'm going in a direction you will not take. Perhaps for many reasons the decision has already been cast that the ailing parents should move in with yourselves. But as you can see, i would oppose this. I actually believe you can offer more to your parents-in-law if they are being housed in a facility with some medical presence or medical supervision. You'll be able to offer more in the way of loving visits, non-stressed caring supervision & just being yourselves, able to get on with your flourishing young lives!


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

My concerns are similar to Humble's - the main one is that I don't think that you buying a house (whether in Hamilton or Toronto, but especially in Hamilton) will actually solve their problems. If you both work, and presumably want to have lives that include more than just work and being at home (hobbies? spending time together out of the house?), then how much time will you really have available to spend with them? I think it is worth thinking very carefully about how you expect that moving in together in a house that you all share will help you and them. 

Here's one way to think through these issues: would it make just as much sense for you to rent accommodation together? If not, why not? If you were renting accommodation, and given that you are the ones with responsibilities outside of the house, why would you consider renting in anyplace other than Toronto? 

Could the money you are considering spending on a downpayment and mortgage be used instead to purchase some in-home care for your in-laws? 

I think a visit to their local Community Care and Access Centre - http://www.ccac-ont.ca/Content.aspx?EnterpriseID=4&LanguageID=1&MenuID=1 - is your next stop, not a mortgage broker. Even if you did purchase a home for you all to live in together, you would still likely need help and support from the health care system. 

Whether you buy a house for you all or not, your ILs need some help preparing for the coming years. Please take some time with their CCAC to understand your options and create a plan you can all feel better about.


----------



## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

Commuting that distance would, IMO, be stressful, time-consuming, and maybe pricey (how much is gas now??). 

Plan carefully - get options on the table wrt home-care, finances etc. Research and gather as much information & contacts as you can. 

Does your employment benefits package from your employer have any resources that you can use at this time? - My employer has a service that offers research into life situtations where mental health and other health matters are concerned. http://www.homewoodhumansolutions.com/services/Assistance.aspx - perhaps yours does. They provide access to services that can help you develop a plan in a situation like this one.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

This is a really rough situation. You haven't mentioned in your post, but what does your wife think about this? Does she want to have her parents live with you? It sounds like this would add a lot of stress to your relationship.


----------



## Money4life (May 17, 2012)

Thank you for all of the responses.

I think my in-laws know that they're not in the best shape but they would never admit it. At least verbally, they feel that they can still do things on their own but we are well aware that this isn't the case. We bought my father-in-law a walker to use at all times whenever he's out of the house but both parents conveniently "forget" to use it or even state that he doesn't need it because they "won't be out for long". There are more frustrating things that they do but I only have so much space to type. I think ultimately, my father-in-law is too stubborn to realize that they need help and my mother-in-law is not well enough to really understand this. My wife is an only child so its ultimately her responsibility to take care of them. My in-laws do have siblings that live in close proximity but they have expressed no desire to help them out. Putting my in-laws in a retirement or community home is out of the question as they would probably disown their daughter if that happened. I know that it would not be their decision but I don't think we could do that to them right now. They're not in great shape but I don't think it has reached to that point yet. 

We would like to have kids someday but taking care of my wife's parents would be challenging enough as it is. Another thing is that whenever my father-in-law does pass away down the road, I'm not sure if I would be comfortable enough to trust my mother-in-law with taking care of our children while we're at work. In addition to her illness and not knowing the English language at all, she does not know how to drive. As for my parents, my dad died from a heart attack when he was 55 and my mom lives two hours away from us. When my mother retires in 5 years, I'll try to persuade her to live closer to us (she needs the attention too and would be a great nanny) but five years is a pretty long time from now. Whenever my wife has a discussion with her parents about moving out, they reluctantly agree but don't offer much to the discussion. I know that if they had the choice, they would never want to move out of their house, even though it is no longer properly configured to their lifestyle. My father-in-law has trouble climbing the stairs and both bathrooms are not on the main level of the house (the stairs are unusually steep). As for my wife, she acknowledges that it's going to be more stressful with them in our lives but she is just not comfortable with them being out of her sight. She has expressed her fear in something happening to them and not being there to help...or at least trying to help.

I'm not sure if I like the idea of spending our potential downpayment money to purchasing some in-home care for my in-laws. I think we should be a bit selfish in that regard and only use that money if it benefits us just as much as it would benefit them. I do like the idea of maybe visiting a social worker or to ask for advise of someone who deals with health and life matters. I will have to clarify but I believe we do have a program at work that provides something similar to this. I will definitely look into it.

I will admit that both my wife and I have been pretty stressed out and haven't been taking care of ourselves. We know that things will get better eventually but it is going to take time. I think it is true that my in-laws have not been very understanding or supportive of what we are trying to do for them. Hopefully, we'll be able to sit down and figure out what everyone realistically wants...but it's not going to be easy. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to rent a larger space in Toronto but we definitely need some more advise and research before making any long term commitments.


----------



## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

You may want to look into doing some minor things to make the house accessible , a chair lift and a washroom reno would probably set you back less than $10,000.Depending on their income they may qualify for some help there.Even swapping the existing bathtub with a walk in with a seat that home depot carries will only be about $2000 and add a few grab bars.Chair seats on a straight stair case are only about $3000. I am in a wheelchair 90% of the time so have gone through modifications of our old home until we finally had this home built from scratch for me .
Mental illness is a tough one to deal with ,I have a family member (nephew) who is bipolar and manic depressive , you are better off to have some professional help.You indicate that English is not their first language maybe there is somebody in your community who can help with some temporary home care help until you figure things out.It is much better to rent a home and live together part time for a few months before you have them sell their home.
My brother moved in with us 15 months ago and he has terminal cancer , my husband and I love him but we still go away from him once a week for our time ,a relationship needs this and since you have a new marriage this is even more important.


----------



## Money4life (May 17, 2012)

Hi Marina,

Thank you for sharing your experiences. Those are all good ideas but the problem is that if we start making those kind of adjustments to the house, the in-laws will never want to move out. My wife wants to be closer to them and besides, they really need to re-locate from their current neighbourhood.

We actually all lived together at one point in their house when I first got a job out of school and it wasn't too bad. Granted, both of them were in better condition back then. If and when we decide to all move in together, I think it would be more stressful in the beginning stages but after everyone settles in, it should be OK. Of course, my wife and I will make sure that we get enough personal time to ourselves as well. My mother-in-law has actually been visiting a social worker/psychiatrist for the past 10 years so she has been getting some treatment and my father-in-law does have a lung specialist in the city. This was also a reason why we considered moving to Hamilton (since they have long term relationships there) but then again, there would be even more professional help options in Toronto.


----------



## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Money4life said:


> Hi Marina,
> 
> Thank you for sharing your experiences. Those are all good ideas but the problem is that if we start making those kind of adjustments to the house, the in-laws will never want to move out. My wife wants to be closer to them and besides, they really need to re-locate from their current neighbourhood.
> 
> We actually all lived together at one point in their house when I first got a job out of school and it wasn't too bad. Granted, both of them were in better condition back then. If and when we decide to all move in together, I think it would be more stressful in the beginning stages but after everyone settles in, it should be OK. Of course, my wife and I will make sure that we get enough personal time to ourselves as well. My mother-in-law has actually been visiting a social worker/psychiatrist for the past 10 years so she has been getting some treatment and my father-in-law does have a lung specialist in the city. This was also a reason why we considered moving to Hamilton (since they have long term relationships there) but then again, there would be even more professional help options in Toronto.


My neighbor convinced his parents to move out of their home about 18 months ago and his dad was so miserable they had to go through expense of purchasing another home in the old area.My parents live in Newfoundland and within another few years we have to deal with their health and figure what to do.There is no way they will ever move to Ontario so luckily we can afford to maintain 3 homes , one in Newfoundland , one here and a vacation home.If we could not do this I feel that I would have to sacrifice my own happiness and health to be there for them so I really feel for you.I told my parents we will be willing to spend 6 months of the year in Newfoundland but they have to come here with us at least 3 months of the year.
You will gain on the cheaper housing if you move but then you have to consider the travel expenses .You are paying the gas , car expenses and insurance in after tax money so would be interesting to find out exactly these expenses and figure out what sort of job you would get in Hamilton if you choose to move there.
If you are not interested in making the home more accessible for them it seems you have already decided they should move and sell.If you decide to purchase a home I would suggest you have the parents pay combination of rent/utilties and contribute to the groceries and you keep the mortgage and taxes to yourself as that clearly defines who owns the property.You already have enough for a down payment so you don't need their money.My friend died at age 49 of COPD and it was a huge shock how fast she went but I also know people who live for decades with this illness. 
My advise is since you only married 2 months ago spend this year and be selfish enjoy your honeymoon phase ,take a trip just the two of you and do it now!Don't rush to buy anything but seriously look at rentals that will suit the both of you and since it is a rental I would have them paying rent and sharing the utilities.

My husband and I have been together 29 years now and this year is our 25th ,our kids are 10 and 21.We are still in our honeymoon phase and still go and spend weekends at hotels so don't think you are dead after kids lol.When our youngest enrolls in college we are moving to another country and the kids know it lol


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Money4life said:


> I'm not sure if I like the idea of spending our potential downpayment money to purchasing some in-home care for my in-laws. I think we should be a bit selfish in that regard and only use that money if it benefits us just as much as it would benefit them.


Good luck in your decisions; you sound like your mind is pretty much made up. 

However, for what it's worth, I wasn't suggesting you spend your downpayment money to purchase in-home care...in-home care is relatively cheap and can be started and stopped very very easily -- you would not have to set aside a large fraction of your downpayment to do this, or alternately your parents-in-law might participate in the cost. 

Let's say you budgeted $5000 over the course of a year to buy in-home care support for your in-laws - at (say) $30/hour that's about 3 hours per week. Over two years, that might be $10,000 -- and if it reached the point where they needed more than 3 hours per week, you might then be able to discuss alternate living arrangements (i.e., long-term care home). 

Conversely, if you move to Hamilton and maintain jobs in Toronto, you will likely spend more than that on your transportation alone in a year, with no benefit to anyone in particular; nevermind wear and tear on your car. Or you could compare that $5,000/year cost it to the real estate commission you will pay on the purchase of a home -- more than $5K gone in an instant. 

People with COPD can and do live very long lives after diagnosis, depending on the overall state of their health and (most importantly) whether they continue to smoke. My concern is that you are contemplating making a very large financial decision - the purchase of a house - in a city that you don't work in and don't want to live in; and moreover the house is not for you, necessarily, but for a living situation that may not be long-term. The purchase of a house should be a long-term decision because there are a lot of "hidden" and unrecoverable costs, and the situation you are contemplating will have a lot of ongoing unrecoverable costs (mostly transportation; also your TIME in commuting). 

But like I said, good luck in your decisions! I'm only adding these points because you reached out for the thoughts of others.


----------



## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I have my own employees as my home care ,agencies will charge clients about $23.65 per hour and pay the person doing the work about $13 per hour.I pay my staff $16 per hour and use about 30 hours a week.My WSIB cost about $100 a month and I also pay the EI and CPP expenses for 3 part time workers who work 9-16 hours a week.I don't claim this as medical expense as I have existing business and I pay them as I pay the rest of my employees but I am sure this can be set up to be claimed as a medical expense.There are many PSW workers out there looking for private clients so you may want to consider trying this route but they may qualify for some services from the government as well.


----------



## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

Just curious what you think your in-laws would do in their current situation, if they had no children to help them out, move in with, etc.?


----------



## Money4life (May 17, 2012)

Hi Marina: 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and being understanding of my situation. It's interesting to say that you think we have enough money for a downpayment on a home. I assume you were thinking of parts of the GTA rather than the city of Toronto? Yes, the in-laws will definitely be sharing all expenses with us whenever (if) we move in together. You make a good point that we still have a long way to go in our lives and that we shouldn't be stressing too much at the moment. But going on a honeymoon before settling these affairs, not sure if I'd be able to do that! 

Hi MoneyGal:

For your idea of in-home care, I presume this would be a situation where they continued to live by themselves in Hamilton rather than moving in with us in Toronto and still getting in-home care? I see what you are saying in regards to them not having to be watched all of the time but the budgeted price still scares me a little. Also, we've had trouble finding real estate agents speaking their language in the city so I would imagine that it would be just as difficult finding them some in-home care that spoke their language as well. For what it's worth, I actually like Hamilton and wouldn't mind moving there if it were closer to Toronto. But if we did buy a house, it does seem to make more sense to purchase in Toronto. 

Hi Cal:

Honestly, I think they would pretend everything is OK and just try to take care of themselves. They would not consider moving into a place that was more accessible to their needs. But I have to remember that they do come from a different generation so I can see why it would be difficult for them to admit that they need help.


----------

