# Conspiracy Theories



## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Just for a little fun and be a little serious if you want what are some thoughts or theories you may have about the what we have seen or will see.

1. Why was the financial mess allowed to take place in the US and elsewhere?

My thought on this is that someone wanted these bankers to make huge bonus money and maybe set up a collapse in the US and its dollar. I believe the Fed knew everything about where this will all lead to and didn't want to stop it.

2. They are trying to set up another bubble to really screw everyone over.

They are trying and we are hurtling towards some kind of disaster whether it is deflation, hyper-inflation or both.

3. The stock market is being propped up at opportune times to keep the party going by nailing the short sellers and tripping technical targets.

I believe this is happening for sure to hide all the real problems out there.

4. Unemployment, inflation and big banks hiding what is real is being allowed to be hidden or not being marked to market.

If it helps, then sure lets do it.

5. Gold has gone up since 2001 even though it doesn't pay to hold it and so on.

This is because people are voting against the paper currencies and turning to gold. Like it or not gold is considered money and someday the paper currencies of today will disappear.

6. We are at the end game and reset is required.

I believe through manipulation or stupidity that we are heading for an overhaul and before this decade is out we will have a new sound era to move into. This era will carry us forward for the next 70- 80 years with the ups and downs along the way. 

7. We will see peak oil and all will be over.

I believe we will get through this problem smelling like roses in the end and oil will not matter so much in the decade after this one.

8. John F. Kennedy was assassinated because he wanted to get rid of or bug the Fed and didn't want to be in Vietnam. 

9. Global Warming is a farce and made up to make big money for people who don't need it.

We do need to save energy and do better and so on but I believe some very rich people want to control all this for their benefit.


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

I think a lot of these "conspiracies" are likely even though they will only ever be "theories"

The current system lets corporations do whatever they can to make money, and ultimately gain power and control without any accountability. It's supposed to rely on competition, but it has obviously advanced to deception and manipulation.

I think corporations have advanced so far that they can control far more than the average person realizes they can. "The Fed" is just one corporation

I think as the system gets too far out of hand, it will have to come crashing down like many systems have before. The question is when?

The younger generation is really starting to wake up and be less convinced by the brainwashing mass media. In that way corporations are losing some of their control. I think that once enough people "wake up" it will have a snowball effect

I think a huge turning point will be if they manage to replace the internet with "the grid". It will either cause an outcry, or kill the spread of these "conspiracy theories"


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

dogcom said:


> Just for a little fun and be a little serious if you want what are some thoughts or theories you may have about the what we have seen or will see.
> 
> 1. Why was the financial mess allowed to take place in the US and elsewhere?
> 
> ...


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

High Octane I agree the system will crash and we are there except for the deceptions to let it go on a little longer. I feel the debt in the US is just to high and going higher to the breaking point which may have been reached and we just don't feel it yet.

On gold berubeland I have been in and out of it since it was 390 dollars an ounce and have done very well. I feel the next stage to come will be the producers buying the juniors to bring more future production. Of course after that the public will buy like the internet ending the bull market sending gold into hibernation until the next bull market.

Global warming should be seen more as a common sense exercise teaching people and companies to conserve and not to waste. We should also award those who conserve our resources. But just don't get conned by carbon credits, carbon tax on gas and greedy people with false or forced science which will only help the greedy. 

I may be wrong but your take on capitalism is based on snowing people over to make it work. I believe that would be the cornerstone of all systems.


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

Berubeland said:


> I think this was a compounding of human stupidity and greed. People and institutions lending to people they knew were not qualified but not really seeing the end game. Individually it was innocuous but in the big picture compounded over and over the overall effect was devastating. In psychology it's called "groupthink" and is known to be very dangerous. Other examples include what happened in Germany during the Second World War, the Bush Administration torturing people and of course this latest debacle. Psychology experiments have shown that 90% of people will deliver a fatal electric shock if ordered to by a "superior" or someone in authority.


Yup it's "groupthink" so who's the mastermind?? Not Hitler this time. Basically instead of people taking the time to think of what's best for them, they just accept the norm from the media. Anyone who doesn't follow groupthink is a conspiracy theorist

I like the term "sheeple" - when people follow follow a herd without really paying attention to who's leading them. If nobody leads sheep, they just kinda scatter

The mass media is a perceived authority, we assume they are legit because it looks professional (just like the random person in uniform who told people to electrocute others)



Berubeland said:


> Bubbles do not have to be set up, they are an outcome of the lemming effect. Everyone wants to do the in thing. They will follow you off a cliff, buy a new car or buy the new sexy stock so that they can tell their friends at the water cooler how smart they are.


So who's the leading and manipulating the lemmings then? Groupthing or lemmings all follow something, or else the effect wouldn't exist

Wouldn't it be easy for a strategic move to take advantage of these effects?



Berubeland said:


> 6. We are at the end game and reset is required.
> 
> Pure capitalism and consumerism is not sustainable. The system we have of not creating anything in Canada and the United States creating a profitable middle class cannot continue.
> 
> It is unrealistic to expect our corporations to continue to increase profits quarter after quarter. What is wrong with a company that makes slow and steady money over and over.


They are making ridiculous profit from products made in other countries, I think it is sustainable while we continue to exploit others and pretend to help them



Berubeland said:


> 7. We will see peak oil and all will be over.
> 
> When we have no cheap oil we will find something else. Also we have the technology to go without oil it is just very expensive which we don't want to face.


We don't want to change? Or they don't want to change?

Oil is a controlled limited resource and therefore very profitable. We have the technology to switch to something else but we won't get the best thing for us or the planet, it will be the next most profitable resource.



Berubeland said:


> 8. John F. Kennedy was assassinated because he wanted to get rid of or bug the Fed and didn't want to be in Vietnam.
> 
> He got the wrong girl knocked up and her daddy made him pay.


Vietnam was extremely profitable, and JFK wasn't giving in.



Berubeland said:


> 9. Global Warming is a farce and made up to make big money for people who don't need it.
> 
> Global warming is real and they'd rather keep us buying their stuff than address the problems in a serious way.



The climate has always changed, of course it's serious, the question is are we speeding it up and by how much?

I don't think we can stop climate change, we need to adapt in order to survive like any other strong species does.


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## mogul777 (Jun 2, 2009)

dogcom said:


> Just for a little fun and be a little serious if you want what are some thoughts or theories you may have about the what we have seen or will see.
> 
> 1. Why was the financial mess allowed to take place in the US and elsewhere?


Allowed? No one was/is in control. Greed of course. Money makes the world go round.



dogcom said:


> 2. They are trying to set up another bubble to really screw everyone over.


As already noted bubbles aren't manufactured they are created... see the lemming comments above. Oil would be the closest to a manufactured bubble but again is the bubble the cause or the effect...



dogcom said:


> 3. The stock market is being propped up at opportune times to keep the party going by nailing the short sellers and tripping technical targets.


That's the whole idea. Why would anyone not expect an "opportune prop up"?



dogcom said:


> 4. Unemployment, inflation and big banks hiding what is real is being allowed to be hidden or not being marked to market.


Of course. People can only stomach so much so why pummel them with stuff they don't understand anyway. Easy to hide that. 



dogcom said:


> 5. Gold has gone up since 2001 even though it doesn't pay to hold it and so on.


So? Gold moves with oil and other commodities, inverse to the USD in which it is priced (same as oil). Nothing shocking here. Fate of the US vs fate of gold. Declining empire of course, but not so fast. 



dogcom said:


> 6. We are at the end game and reset is required.


No we are not. If you think this is the endgame you've led a very very sheltered life. We have not seen diddly to this point and likely won't in our lifetimes.



dogcom said:


> 7. We will see peak oil and all will be over.


Peak oil? Is that a banker's term? Lol. Who cares... insert next energy source when necessary or profitable to do so. BTW peak oil is hogwash. 



dogcom said:


> 8. John F. Kennedy was assassinated because he wanted to get rid of or bug the Fed and didn't want to be in Vietnam.


What's this got to do with investing? No idea, don't care. Apparently was too popular and sleazy for someone to stomach. 



dogcom said:


> 9. Global Warming is a farce and made up to make big money for people who don't need it.


Global warming is fact. Climate change is normal. Are humans the reason the climate on Mars has changed? Do your part don't be a hog and an idiot. Alas, many people are. Humans are too stubborn (some will say stupid) to adapt. Other species have better odds.


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## el oro (Jun 16, 2009)

Oil won't matter much in the decade after this one? We have the technology to live without oil? You guys really underestimate the role that oil plays in the world today.


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

If the greatest replacement for oil was discovered today. It will take 30 years to build the infrastructure. 

In my low tech way I was filling up in Fenlon Falls, ask owner about his huge natural gas tank. With installation cost, inspections, certified operates, just general red tape can't see that replacing oil.

Lost my shirt and pants on fuel cells once.

I'm also reading Shell Shocked by John Stephenson who writes that the US is 7% of China's GDP. That's pretty small and helps me understand how our economy has stood up.

Conspiracy's usually just lack of knowledge.


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

Oldroe said:


> If the greatest replacement for oil was discovered today. It will take 30 years to build the infrastructure.
> 
> In my low tech way I was filling up in Fenlon Falls, ask owner about his huge natural gas tank. With installation cost, inspections, certified operates, just general red tape can't see that replacing oil.
> 
> ...


I don't need much knowledge to understand that technology is paralyzed because there is no incentive to replace oil. The incentive is to ensure you squash any new technology, and build an infrastructure to lock in oil for as long as possible.

I've seen fuel cells work in military labs, but the military can only push technology like that in a time of war with another advanced country. I'm sure there are many other technologies we could develop if it wasn't paralysed

So are you saying China doesn't rely on USA as much as people think? Ok. My concern is corporate america is exploiting and pillaging as many countries as it can. Chinese corporations fit in as a direct competitor for these resources, not a subordinate

I do lack knowledge but I think you have a closed mind


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

Yes you hit most of the points for oil and fuel cells.

At 7 % the US is very small trading partner if this book is correct. So here in Canada our resource stayed relatively strong our banks stayed relatively strong our markets bounce back faster. 

Have also read that China will be a consumer nation within 10 years so some job repatriation could happen.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

High octane is correct about technology replacing oil is being paralyzed. Mogul777 is right if we want to replace oil we will it is just a matter of the right greedy people making it so, so they can make the most money and control the replacements to oil. I am sure these people have already figured out the time line and the gradual replacement of oil which we are just starting to witness now. They need arguments on climate change and peak oil to make them look like the good guys so they can get into power through governments and make their agenda happen on their time table.

On gold I don't agree it follows other commodities all the time. Gold is a product of this endgame as people run from the tumbling currencies or looking for a safe haven like the US dollar which is seen as the best of the worst. So gold will either do well or hold its value during a hyper-inflation or a deflation as the world works off the credit of the last 20 or more years.

JFK matters in money because the same company that made the money in Vietnam and started the downfall of America also made the money in Iraq. The company in question is Halliburton and was under a different name I believe during or before the Vietnam war. The thing is this company has made tons of money for the greedy over the dead bodies of Americans and at the expensive of the American economy during the Vietnam war and the war in Iraq.


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

dogcom said:


> JFK matters in money because the same company that made the money in Vietnam and started the downfall of America also made the money in Iraq. The company in question is Halliburton and was under a different name I believe during or before the Vietnam war. The thing is this company has made tons of money for the greedy over the dead bodies of Americans and at the expensive of the American economy during the Vietnam war and the war in Iraq.


JFK is a huge event in my mind, I see a lot of similarities with 9/11

Immediately after both events we knew exactly who to blame, even though it was never clearly proven who was to blame the media never shows an ounce of doubt. Both events enabled the USA to go to war on questionable terms

The conspiracy theories get a bad name because they are written and spread by amateurs. I work in air defense and I can poke holes all through a 9/11 conspiracy theory because they make a lot of assumptions and exaggerations

There are way too many holes to just blindly accept the official explanations. It is blatantly impossible for a building to free fall straight down, when only damaged at the top


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## el oro (Jun 16, 2009)

There is no "incentive is to ensure you squash any new technology, and build an infrastructure to lock in oil for as long as possible." Oil is just such a CHEAP/portable/energy dense source that funding alternatives won't be prevalent until the oil price is much higher.

Assume for a moment that down the road (inflation adjusted to today's dollars) oil is at $500/b and so the next energy source is in place, infrastructure and all. Let's just say quality of life and standard of living will be on the decline for most people as everything gets more expensive relative to their paycheques, especially food. I'd love to see airlines flying non-hydrocarbon fuelled 747's!

Replacing oil is not just a matter of the greedy bad guys making it so, whoever they are. The invisible hand will determine it. I look forward to seeing how it all plays out.


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

$1600 Gold by 2011 said:


> Assume for a moment that down the road (inflation adjusted to today's dollars) oil is at $500/b and so the next energy source is in place, infrastructure and all. Let's just say quality of life and standard of living will be on the decline for most people as everything gets more expensive relative to their paycheques, especially food. I'd love to see airlines flying non-hydrocarbon fuelled 747's!


What about technology that vastly reduces the consumption of oil? It's been around for decades but is never implemented because there's no incentive. Ever heard of direct injection?

The infrastructure is set up to consume oil, and there is no way to change that now. We use B747's as much as possible rather than high speed trains etc. Our cities are designed to travel by personal vehicle rather than public transport.

Personally I think quality of life must suck for those in traffic jams 4 hrs a day, and I would certainly rather take a modern train than a B747 a lot of times


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## el oro (Jun 16, 2009)

high octane said:


> What about technology that vastly reduces the consumption of oil? It's been around for decades but is never implemented because there's no incentive. Ever heard of direct injection?
> 
> The infrastructure is set up to consume oil, and there is no way to change that now. We use B747's as much as possible rather than high speed trains etc. Our cities are designed to travel by personal vehicle rather than public transport.
> 
> Personally I think quality of life must suck for those in traffic jams 4 hrs a day, and I would certainly rather take a modern train than a B747 a lot of times


Technology that reduces oil consumption is constantly being developed and implemented. I expect direct fuel injection engines to be much more common over the next decade. The question is whether or not the reduction in oil consumption due to innovation can keep up with decline in oil production.

Don't worry, trains and ships may be more popular than planes again one day. Imo, public transport is pretty good in the Canadian cities that have big traffic jams.


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

1. Why was the financial mess allowed to take place in the US and elsewhere?

Short memories. Nothing new under the sun here. The news articles could have been written any time from the 1800s, 70s/early 80s, 90, 2000s and before. Business cycles happen and this just happens to be a bigger one.

2. They are trying to set up another bubble to really screw everyone over.
Unsure who "they" are and how scewing everyone over helps "them" - curious to know who "they" are?

3. The stock market is being propped up at opportune times to keep the party going by nailing the short sellers and tripping technical targets.

If "they" can, sure, why not?

4. Unemployment, inflation and big banks hiding what is real is being allowed to be hidden or not being marked to market.

Yep..governments - like everyone - want their performance to be better than it is...re: China

5. Gold has gone up since 2001 even though it doesn't pay to hold it and so on.
Lead did better

6. We are at the end game and reset is required.
ya ya ya

7. We will see peak oil and all will be over.
dis-agree, could be more or less oil, more or less gas, just what we're willing to pay for.

9. Global Warming is a farce and made up to make big money for people who don't need it.

You saved the best for last . I believed in Global Warming (oops, CLIMATE change) at one time but since they it's been taken over by extremists and has become a religion. Yes; there is an issue, perhaps even a crisis. Yes; we need to be frugal with our resources but you want me to believe you have an accurate computer model - which can say what I want it to say - of what will happen 30 years from now? We can't predict something as 'simple' as the stock market 3 months from now. I'm with Vaclav Klaus on the implications of this, it's not about money but power. Textbook case on how to create and sell a crisis to achieve your ends. I can't trust a company's financial statements to be true, you want me to trust the U.N.? Settled science my ***.

paraprhase from the that anon. (Wilde? Shaw?) guy again "It's not the evil men I fear since they will eventually tire. It is those who wish to do good I fear as they will continually drive themselves to do their good, no matter what the cost to their fellow man" and "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction" ~ Pascal


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

John Michaels on number one you suggest they were not smart enough to do better and that is possible. If this is the case I certainly don't trust them to do better now on the financial front.

On gold you said lead did better and I have to admit I like that comment.

On the end game I believe it means they have to do something like raise taxes cut spending and so to get serious about the problems they face. They also have to increase the savings rate and stop trying to simply push credit out the door to people already full of debt. Canadians got serious in the 90's and we didn't let bankers do whatever they wanted and look where we found ourselves. If Americans don't get serious then a reset caused by hyper-inflation or deflation may be the only way out.

The evil men or the ones with the power and the money will use these do good and religious idiots to help them to achieve their goals.

I also still like a lot of what high octane says he seems to have a handle on these things. He seems to realize that the tailspin in the US started after JFK was assassinated.


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

"Useful idiots" is the most appropriate (and relevant reference) term here.

I personally think formal religion is a good thing and don't want to disparage Religion but will attribute negative qualities the religious-like fever of those who think they have 'the answer' to anything. ...the more I educate myself, the less sure I am, funny how that works.


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm not trying to preach an answer to anything. I just wish people would realize how inherently flawed the system is. No matter how good people generally are, conspiracies will exist just because they are profitable

It is known the most powerful corporate leaders meet and collaborate. The theories of what they are planning are just that, and likely exaggerated. Whether they are planning to manipulate the stock market or suppress hydrogen fuel cells; your guess is as good as mine. I doubt the are discussing how to help Haiti or reduce carbon emissions though.

If money is power, the governments in debt have certainly lost the upper hand IMO


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## mogul777 (Jun 2, 2009)

They'll discuss Haiti or carbon emissions if there is something for them to gain. Don't worry about that. Course as has been noted in this thread "they" and "them" are not always easy to identify. 

I've said it before religion is a root of evil, as are money, and love & hate. More wars are faught over religious differences than over money. Money is simply a means to an end, and only sometimes is greed (aka money) that end.


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## scomac (Aug 22, 2009)

John_Michaels said:


> ...the more I educate myself, the less sure I am, funny how that works.


Enlightenment is the scourge of all who seek power.


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## mogul777 (Jun 2, 2009)

scomac said:


> Enlightenment is the scourge of all who seek power.


And ignorance is bliss. Which in fact is true...


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

scomac - sounds very Thoreau-ish?


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## scomac (Aug 22, 2009)

John_Michaels said:


> scomac - sounds very Thoreau-ish?


Interesting...that seems like a reasonable characterization. Thanks


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

mogul777 said:


> And ignorance is bliss. Which in fact is true...


For sure

And as my boss reminds me "You don't know what you don't know"


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## mogul777 (Jun 2, 2009)

high octane said:


> For sure
> 
> And as my boss reminds me "You don't know what you don't know"


Your boss probably doesn't know either.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I don't know where this would fit in under conspiracy theories but what is the one thing we don't expect to happen in the market right now. Most everyone including me expects a correction but almost no one expects a resumption of the bear market starting now without the usual retest to set it up. The only reason I say this is because no one expected the rally we had without a substantial correction along the way.


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## furgy (Apr 20, 2009)

> I don't know where this would fit in under conspiracy theories but what is the one thing we don't expect to happen in the market right now.


I don't see any connection to a conspiracy here.



> Most everyone including me expects a correction but almost no one expects a resumption of the bear market starting now without the usual retest to set it up.


Thursdays selloff may be as close as we will come to a correction for a while.
And who is to say for sure that this is a bear rally and not the beginning of a bull market?
One never knows for sure until you see it in the rear-view.



> The only reason I say this is because no one expected the rally we had without a substantial correction along the way.


I expected it and I'm sure many others did , mainly because there was/is a lot of cash sitting doing nothing , and when peoples fear subsides , their greed takes over and there is another rush back into the market where the potential gains are. 
That's why I rebalanced and deployed surplus cash at or near alltime lows.
I'm not a sophisticated investor by any means , but even I could see the value of companies like Tek when at lows of $4 or less.
I wish however , that I had the guts to hold on to it longer (sold at $18 or so) , but again , hindsight is 100%.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Listen to this from Mark Leibovit on BNN he has just gone 100 percent cash and expects to stay there until probably March, the only reason I listen to him is because he is right most of the time. And he said the week before the huge crash in Oct. 2008 that the market has set up for a crash next week similar to 1987 and i remember posting it on a different forum. From what I am hearing from the not so main stream is that we will go down from here until probably near March and then go up again. The rally from March will be the one to watch and if it doesn't last long and make a new high before the end of summer then the bear market will resume and the road below the March 2009 low will begin.http://watch.bnn.ca/#clip258636


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## el oro (Jun 16, 2009)

dogcom said:


> Listen to this from Mark Leibovit on BNN he has just gone 100 percent cash and expects to stay there until probably March, the only reason I listen to him is because he is right most of the time. And he said the week before the huge crash in Oct. 2008 that the market has set up for a crash next week similar to 1987 and i remember posting it on a different forum. From what I am hearing from the not so main stream is that we will go down from here until probably near March and then go up again. The rally from March will be the one to watch and if it doesn't last long and make a new high before the end of summer then the bear market will resume and the road below the March 2009 low will begin.http://watch.bnn.ca/#clip258636


I think I agree with most things he said. One difference is last week I added a leveraged short position along with long positions and cash instead of his going 100% cash.

The person who informed me of the 1st week of march low also expects the biggest declines are/were last week, (part of) this coming week and from ~feb. 18th to the first week of march. Let's see how this little market timing tidbit holds up.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

The thing is if you have the time during the day and spot the volume reversal along with the type of news we saw from Obama and China you might sidestep some of this correction. I say this because we have come so far in this rally that now is the time or was the time to be looking for a direction change. If we were in a secular bull phase like gold is then you don't have to worry as much but the US market is in a secular bear phase so money protection is far more important.


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## kangyu (Jan 26, 2010)

Just for a little fun and be a little serious if you want what are some thoughts or theories you may have about the what we have seen or will see.

1. Why was the financial mess allowed to take place in the US and elsewhere?

My thought on this is that someone wanted these bankers to make huge bonus money and maybe set up a collapse in the US and its dollar. I believe the Fed knew everything about where this will all lead to and didn't want to stop it.

2. They are trying to set up another bubble to really screw everyone over.

They are trying and we are hurtling towards some kind of disaster whether it is deflation, hyper-inflation or both.

3. The stock market is being propped up at opportune times to keep the party going by nailing the short sellers and tripping technical targets.

I believe this is happening for sure to hide all the real problems out there.

4. Unemployment, inflation and big banks hiding what is real is being allowed to be hidden or not being marked to market.

If it helps, then sure lets do it.

5. Gold has gone up since 2001 NY Escort even though it NY Escorts doesn't pay to hold it and so on.

This is because people are NY Asian Escorts voting against the paper currencies and turning to gold. Like it or not gold is considered money and s NY Asian Escort omeday the paper currencies of today will disappear.

6. We are at the end game and reset is required.

I believe through manipulation or stupidity that we are heading for an overhaul and before this decade is out we will have a new sound era to move into. This era will carry us forward for the next 70- 80 years with the ups and downs along the way.


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## kangyu (Jan 26, 2010)

Just for a little fun and be a little serious if you want what are some thoughts or theories you may have about the what we have seen or will see.

1. Why was the financial mess allowed to take place in the US and elsewhere?


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## Kirkland (Sep 15, 2009)

kangyu said:


> Just for a little fun and be a little serious if you want what are some thoughts or theories you may have about the what we have seen or will see.
> 
> 1. Why was the financial mess allowed to take place in the US and elsewhere?


Hi,

I don't post on here very often but I do like to sit in the shadows and try to read daily, let me just offer my opinions on a few of the posts and also the one above.

A quote earlier made a comment stating that the banks set the system up to fail by compensating the bankers, I'm pretty sure this is untrue. The reason why these "bankers" (day traders and quants) only get these bonuses in compensation of the amount of money they make for the company. As I work in sales (not stocks/shares) I want to be compensated based on the amount of money I make for my company, this is the same with these bankers but on a much larger scale because they make them alot of money.

Whilst some of these people may be unhonest in there transactions I'm pretty sure noones ultimate goal was to freeze the credit market and cause a recession.

Secondly, the financial mess was allowed to take place due to derivitives. Credit Default Swaps and other such derivitives were traded by brokers rather vigerously and this essentially packaged up housing debts of mortgage companies and banks, once defaults started happening due to banks offering low rates and then jacking up the prices people defaulted. Ultimately this caused the derivities contracts to fold, people lost some money and ultimately people refused lending credit. 

Now, this is a good thing on the basis that we need to learn to live within our means, if we continue to become a society of debt and credit future generations will also live like this and it would of needed to evolve eventually.

Just going back to the original question "How could we let this happen" ? Lack of deritives regulations on new and existing products, aslong as someone signs a waver saying they understand it at the moment it's fine by the financial authorities and the government.

Anyway, my 2 cents.


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

Kirkland said:


> Hi, I don't post on here very often but I do like to sit in the shadows and try to read daily, let me just offer my opinions on a few of the posts and also the one above. A quote earlier made a comment stating that the banks set the system up to fail by compensating the bankers, I'm pretty sure this is untrue. The reason why these "bankers" (day traders and quants) only get these bonuses in compensation of the amount of money they make for the company. As I work in sales (not stocks/shares) I want to be compensated based on the amount of money I make for my company, this is the same with these bankers but on a much larger scale because they make them alot of money. Whilst some of these people may be unhonest in there transactions I'm pretty sure noones ultimate goal was to freeze the credit market and cause a recession.


Commissions and bonuses will always cause problems. I would hate to work for commission and hate dealing with those who make them.

It doesn't mean their ultimate goal is evil, everyone just wants to earn a living or do the best they can based on the rewards. Commissions and bonuses makes people narrow minded and short sighted.

Instead of being rewarded for thinking big picture and backing up decisions, all that matters is making as many sales as possible. Individual commissions also deteriorate teamwork which I think is the real downside. A good team will accomplish more with less effort

The banks claim they had to pay these commissions and bonuses to attract the smartest employees. The problem is these employees weren't looking past their next bonus. 

I get paid a salary and rewarded with a pension if I stay long enough. I work efficiently to not waste my time and I certainly think long term and team effort. I wouldn't have it any other way



Kirkland said:


> Secondly, the financial mess was allowed to take place due to derivitives. Credit Default Swaps and other such derivitives were traded by brokers rather vigerously and this essentially packaged up housing debts of mortgage companies and banks, once defaults started happening due to banks offering low rates and then jacking up the prices people defaulted. Ultimately this caused the derivities contracts to fold, people lost some money and ultimately people refused lending credit. Now, this is a good thing on the basis that we need to learn to live within our means, if we continue to become a society of debt and credit future generations will also live like this and it would of needed to evolve eventually. Just going back to the original question "How could we let this happen" ? Lack of deritives regulations on new and existing products, aslong as someone signs a waver saying they understand it at the moment it's fine by the financial authorities and the government. Anyway, my 2 cents.


I agree with the real problem is the lack of regulation. I can't comprehend how people think the market should regulate itself

The world economy is not a self regulating eco system


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

I'm just curious why we think this is a unique event that we haven't gone through before and won't go through again. I'm just reading an article on how Goldman did an evaluation on >>TWENTY-FOUR HOUSING BUSTS since 1970<< around the world.

Yes, there needs to be regulation or rules to play by and perhaps the existing ones need to be modified but come on. "Why was the financial mess ALLOWED to take place in the US and elsewhere?" is code for centralized-government managed economy where neither failure nor success is allowed, only mediocracy.

Yes, bailing out the banks privatized gain and publicized losses but this is hardly unique. Heck it was an issue with Andrew Jackson in 1836.

My only fear is who or what would replace the U.S.. Would you really want China to be dominant economic, cultural, and military power? A coalition of nations, of equals? - like that has worked for more than 10 years in the past.


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

John_Michaels said:


> I'm just curious why we think this is a unique event that we haven't gone through before and won't go through again. I'm just reading an article on how Goldman did an evaluation on >>TWENTY-FOUR HOUSING BUSTS since 1970<< around the world.
> 
> Yes, there needs to be regulation or rules to play by and perhaps the existing ones need to be modified but come on. "Why was the financial mess ALLOWED to take place in the US and elsewhere?" is code for centralized-government managed economy where neither failure nor success is allowed, only mediocracy.


No it's not unique, if anything it's the media spreading that

Just because it happened before doesn't mean the economy is not being manipulated or being "allowed to crash" either. The CIA and american economists have been manipulating countries' economies for decades to allow the corporations to rake in massive profits

It's obvious that economic crashes are key for anyone wanting to make drastic changes. During a crisis, the general population are willing to try new things



John_Michaels said:


> My only fear is who or what would replace the U.S.. Would you really want China to be dominant economic, cultural, and military power? A coalition of nations, of equals? - like that has worked for more than 10 years in the past.


No we don't want China to become the super power. It's nice to ride the coat tails of the western multinational corporate empire, but it's getting more and more out of hand.

For how long can we exploit the less powerful economies and get away with it?

Yes I would rather see the profits filter to the west than filter into China. But the longer it goes on the richer we get and the poorer the exploited countries get.

What does history tell you when that happens?

I would rather see the "mediocre gains" more evenly distributed


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

High_octane - "<snip>.. but it's getting more and more out of hand. For how long can we exploit the less powerful economies and get away with it? Yes I would rather see the profits filter to the west than filter into China. But the longer it goes on the richer we get and the poorer the exploited countries get...<snip>... I would rather see the "mediocre gains" more evenly distributed "

Curious, if you were King-for-a-day, what would you realistically, specifically, implement to create a long-term harmonized, peace-and-love world?


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

Ooops...and something that I can invest in, make a RoR on, so I can retire of course!


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## Underworld (Aug 26, 2009)

Some one has been watching Endgame


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

I assume you mean the Alex Jones version? interesting )
of course nothing we do matters since it's all about Generation Dynamics
http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi-bin/D.PL?d=ww2010.book2


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

Underworld said:


> Some one has been watching Endgame


I can't stand Alex Jones' delivery and videos. Although I do have a book written by someone in that video to read while I'm waiting for hijacked planes to attack Vancouver on the night shift. No idea what to expect I have better books to read first

I have no idea what you can retire on John but I'd love to try to write my solution to the world when I have a few minutes


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

John_Michaels said:


> I assume you mean the Alex Jones version? interesting )
> of course nothing we do matters since it's all about Generation Dynamics
> http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi-bin/D.PL?d=ww2010.book2


This looks interesting maybe I will pick it up as well


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

"I have no idea what you can retire on John but I'd love to try to write my solution to the world when I have a few minutes"

 Looking forward to it, my solutions tend to be more of the same (realism), I'm hoping a VERY different point of view from me will help (idealism?).


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

John_Michaels said:


> Curious, if you were King-for-a-day, what would you realistically, specifically, implement to create a long-term harmonized, peace-and-love world?





John_Michaels said:


> Looking forward to it, my solutions tend to be more of the same (realism), I'm hoping a VERY different point of view from me will help (idealism?).


So you think I’m an idealist then? I’m in the military; do you really think I believe the world can live in peace, love and harmony?? I know that war is natural and inevitable, but I think greed can be controlled at least until the next generation comes along and forgets again

Society drastically changes from time to time, and I think it’s realistically time for change.

I think that eventually all systems get way out of hand as they evolve and select people learn to exploit it too much. Right now the masses are really spiraling out of control. In history, the elites always get richer until the masses wake up and redistribute the wealth

We now need an overhaul to promote competition, transparency, democracy, and technology. (Promoting technology is the way to reduce our strain on the environment)

Competition: We need to prevent the obscene collaboration between corporations and governments. We need to discourage deceptive business with education, and promote true deals and honest business. Currently corporations just mutually agree to rake in profits and pay their leaders obscene bonuses

Transparency: We need a real organization to hold multinational corporations accountable for their actions in parts of the world where they do whatever they want. We need to cease our reliance on corporate media and take advantage of the internet for more diverse points of view. We need to realize that international organizations are all counter-productive while they are funded by corporations

Democracy: We need to take the power from the corporations and give it back to the people. We need to harness technology to make voting popular again. We need to prevent politicians from being funded by corporations. We need to instill a longer outlook than 5 years. We need to vote far more often and educate people on what they’re voting on with technology (and stop relying on corporate media for political education). We need to promote group effort a la Wikipedia to promote and share political ideas. We need to strip the government of pointless traditional positions.

Technology: We need to unleash the technology we discovered decades ago. I think this falls into place if you can force real competition with regulations


If you think this caliber of changes are impossible I think you live a shallow and naïve life. It would be painful for everyone, but so will the current system. The longer you wait, the harder it is to change because select people are amassing more power/money

This is all just off the top of my head. A book I’m looking forward to reading is Hoodwinked, which I hope will have some good ideas on this topic.

Me king of the world? Not likely. I won’t get to provide my views to the puppet leaders at the G20, I’m stuck watching their backs and tasking air assets. The real leaders of the world don’t need military security, just a bit of discretion


As to how, I would have to explain far more as to how I think the world works in detail and where things are going. But on that topic it’s hard not to say things I can’t

I wanted to put this in my signature but it’s too long:

“There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency”

Or I thought of this:

If capitalism is laissez-faire, than corporatism is laissez-controller


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Well said high octane these changes are coming because the greedy finally have gone to far in their financial experiments and have got to cocky and now we will pay the price. After the price is paid in full we will have a better world with stronger people who will not try to blame others for their actions. I remember hearing a story in the early fifties of a banker worried about the leverage getting over 8 to 1 not long after the last reset in the 30's. Today we got to 30 and even 40 to 1 leverage by some US banks and so on and they still thought it would be fine.

We will also need to overhaul our justice system which has become way to complicated. Look at the Air India case that has gone on for decades which is crazy, by the time you are convicted you may well be dead of old age. It is also a great place for the rich or others to hide because it is so expensive and takes so long to bring people to trial.


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

Hey...I didn't know you made a video of what's going on...(referring to 1:42 onwards)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNvQD83WRCg&feature=player_embedded#

Going off to see the elelphant, I'd assume that those in the military would be one of the last to want to go to war and hope for peace, love, and harmony. Just one of the benefits of being at the sharp end of the spear?

Yes, we're agreed that these things need to take place, but the main question was how without destroying the underlying infrastructure of the economy? Revolutions don't exactly help create a good rate of return environment; except for the "them" of course . Which specific laws should be changed or practices modified?

The book I'm looking forward to read is "This Time is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly".


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

John_Michaels said:


> Hey...I didn't know you made a video of what's going on...(referring to 1:42 onwards)
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNvQD83WRCg&feature=player_embedded#
> 
> Going off to see the elelphant, I'd assume that those in the military would be one of the last to want to go to war and hope for peace, love, and harmony. Just one of the benefits of being at the sharp end of the spear?


I'm still not sure if you're mocking me or supporting me

That's a nice video but I don't consider myself in his shoes. I'm a Canadian officer not a US soldier. I aspire to work on USAF airborne command and control, but I would never have joined the US army. I originally joined part time and found Canada's military to be nothing like the US military we all know from TV

If their was ever another "crisis war" as your previous link described, YOU (assuming you are healthy and age 25-40) would be the sharp end of the spear or running for your life. Most experienced soldiers would be training or leading. I would be making tactical level decisions from a distance. Fighter jets are the pointy end of my spear.

That being said I see little requirement for conventional bloody warfare with todays technology. With the proper int and planning, we should be able to do our job quick and decisively with little bloodshed



> Yes, we're agreed that these things need to take place, but the main question was how without destroying the underlying infrastructure of the economy? Revolutions don't exactly help create a good rate of return environment; except for the "them" of course . Which specific laws should be changed or practices modified?
> 
> The book I'm looking forward to read is "This Time is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly".


Yes you would need to destroy the underlying infrastructure. That's the painful part I referred to before.

More to follow when I'm not monitoring a loop with 20 agencies


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

John_Michaels said:


> Hey...I didn't know you made a video of what's going on...(referring to 1:42 onwards)
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNvQD83WRCg&feature=player_embedded#


I do actually want to take a few years off, buy a few HD cameras, travel the world and make my own documentary

People are only captured by pretty video now-a-days, and I have a knack for it

It would sound nothing like his message though. I don't feel remorse or blame the soldiers, I blame the people for their ignorance

I don't believe the people or politicians are inherently bad, I think the corporate system is inherently bad

You still need soldiers to fight the few bad people


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

I'm still not sure if you're mocking me or supporting me

For the military reference, I'm not mocking you. Two Uncles are ex-US Marine (one was doing Joint Chiefs stuff until they found out he was a foreigner  ), Dad ended as a Captain, cousin went to RMC, wife's old boyfriend was UDT, a friend she used to beat up , he joined the navy (and for the rest of you, yes being beat up by a girl is good training for the navy ) heck, story is that I baby-burped on de Chastelain.

If I really wanted to mock you I'd say "...for a civil servant who can retire after 20 years on full pension, you have nothing to complain about"...well, that would be a mocking. But that would be unfair and blurs a lot of facts so I won't say it. 

As for your conspiracy views, yep, I'm mocking you. I was hoping to drag this on a little further.  Your tendency for petit ad homiums and references to 'personal revealed knowledge' is a little...unsure how to put it but it just brings out the worst in me. Sorry, forgive me, bad manners on my part. I suspect we agree on many other things.

That's a nice video but I don't consider myself in his shoes. I'm a Canadian officer not a US soldier. I aspire to work on USAF airborne command and control, but I would never have joined the US army. I originally joined part time and found Canada's military to be nothing like the US military we all know from TV

Didn't mean for the video to be a personal reference, it just conveniently showed up on Mish and it referred to "them". One of the better I've seen. If there was a Canadian one, I would have preferred that.

If their was ever another "crisis war" as your previous link described, YOU (assuming you are healthy and age 25-40) would be the sharp end of the spear or running for your life. Most experienced soldiers would be training or leading. I would be making tactical level decisions from a distance. Fighter jets are the pointy end of my spear.

Yes, aware of that, I was going to say you're the shaft but that could be taken negatively and that wasn't what I wanted to say.

That being said I see little requirement for conventional bloody warfare with todays technology. With the proper int and planning, we should be able to do our job quick and decisively with little bloodshed

..and I believe we have the United States to thank for that, not us nor the Europeans. The last six years have been a revolution in military affairs. If the United States goes down, the world will be in a far worse spot. For all its faults _and compared to other current and past powers_, the United States is a force for good in the world. All very well to point out the faults -and there are many - of the U.S. but I'm sensing distasteful schadenfreude in some (not necessarily yours) postings. But hey, I digress - this is a financial forum and a conspiracy thread.

<snip>

More to follow when I'm not monitoring a loop with 20 agencies[/QUOTE]

CALEA? Heck you ARE "them"! 25 years from now with your savings and investing, you'll be in the top 10% of net wealth and you're arm-in-arm subjugating the little guy


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

PM me your cousins details

I don't get paid enough for what I do. Many peers are making more in the private sector. I prefer this lifestyle and want to see more of what they can't. I obviously like money, but not enough to be top 10%. I would be happy to retire on a modest farm.

I have lots of time to adjust the views you don't agree with. I know "I don't know what I don't know" but that is not why I talk vaguely. It's just frustrating that the things I can actually bring to the table I don't want to discuss

I don't monitor people's phone lines but I suppose I hear the results. I monitor and inform a command loop, and make reactive decisions for air ops. I just work in a sensitive environment and see things the media and tourists do not

I will avoid taking things off topic in the future but sometimes I can't resist



> For all its faults and compared to other current and past powers, the United States is a force for good in the world. All very well to point out the faults -and there are many - of the U.S. but I'm sensing distasteful schadenfreude in some (not necessarily yours) postings.


I think a lot of people either misdirect their anger at the US government or refuse to believe that anything is wrong. I just get frustrated and try to instill some awareness without pointing fingers

I also label people who point out problems without solutions as whiners. I'm just not going to rant on that long in a monologue


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

Quote "Yes you would need to destroy the underlying infrastructure. That's the painful part I referred to before".

You (we?) might get your chance  in 2012 never waste a good crisis to change things

http://www.businessinsider.com/awesome-video-of-economic-collapse-set-to-music-2010-2

I've seen all these graphs individually before but for some reason this video just scared the crap out of me...I think I'll go watch Blair Witch to calm myself down


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Here is an interesting story on where we are now with the Fed and the banks. The story says the Fed is creating money out of thin air which we already know is true but it pays interest to banks so they will not actually use these reserves to ignite inflation.http://www.safehaven.com/article-15707.htm

Last year we saw the Dubai crisis which was the first sovereign cockroach to emerge in what will be the next crisis coming as early as now. Debt is getting ready to topple us worldwide as we will need to retire it because it has simply gone to far and can only be purchased with money printed out of thin air. Regardless of what we think on conspiracy theories this recovery is not the normal kind and is far more dangerous.


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

ok, obviously I'm not a big fan of conspiracies - I view it more as quick entertainment - but I've just checked Yahoo, what do you know, late afternoon, TSE & the rest have just turned positive again. this guy on the link might be on to something 

http://www.businessinsider.com/trim...stock-market-though-i-have-no-evidence-2010-2

I guess pointing out the 'obvious' is not a conspiracy?


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## el oro (Jun 16, 2009)

Here's another good one: http://www.businessinsider.com/japa...ould-already-be-experiencing-hyperinflation-8

Summary for people don't click links:

This article explains that Japan has a budget/expenditure (low interest rate combined with two decades of massive debt spending, sound familiar?) that has, historically, led to hyperinflation. They've been able to delay hyperinflation because the Japanese population have been big savers, happy to buy government bonds. But now that more and more Japanese are retiring, purchases of government debt has plateaued. In order for Japan to delay the hyperinflation further, they'll need foreigners to buy more of their debt but those foreigners are going to want a higher interest rate, which Japan can't afford! Boom! Hyperinflation!

If this scenario were to play out, Japan would have to sell assets such as the massive US debt they hold. The US would then have lost their second largest debt buyer, possibly forcing the US to raise yields on their debt. If the world no longer believed that the US could fund their debt (we're getting there) then the USD would be well on it's one-way path to hyperinflation.

This is one scenario that may very well play out in years ahead.

Some investors like to ignore macroeconomics and widely diversify their portfolios. I just can't do it!! Fixed income earners will be toast toast toast!

There's only one country whose currency can dodge the hyperinflation bullet and that country is Goldistan!


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I don't think you understand most people on this forum 1600 and that is we are in a normal recovery. Everyone gets their lunch handed to them starting with deflation most likely, but maybe hyper-inflation but in the end the greatest damage that can possibly be done is the end result.

Everyone on this forum and everywhere thinks fiat currency is their god and nothing else will do until they smash their heads into it. Right now it is own US dollars which is insane but will be true and then or it will be in line with it, it will be gold. 

It will be gold if we see hyper-inflation and it will be gold if we see deflation. Of course we will hear the gasp from the paper for nothing in return crowd, but that is how it is. It sucks but we must reset and then let paper return to its glory for the next 80 years. Change is here and this is a new beginning and not a normal recovery and everyone will get it one way or another.


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## mogul777 (Jun 2, 2009)

Perhaps in an ideal world this would be a "new beginning". Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, this is not such a world. Simply the natural cycle progressing as it always has and always will. We are simply along for the ride, occassionaly giving the wheel a yank for better or worse.


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

mogul777 said:


> I've said it before religion is a root of evil, as are money, and love & hate. More wars are faught over religious differences than over money. Money is simply a means to an end, and only sometimes is greed (aka money) that end.


I'd like to see you make a longer list of religious conflicts than money




mogul777 said:


> Perhaps in an ideal world this would be a "new beginning". Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, this is not such a world. Simply the natural cycle progressing as it always has and always will. We are simply along for the ride, occassionaly giving the wheel a yank for better or worse.


It sounds like you can't even comprehend what a real crisis and opportunity for a "new beginning" is like.


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## mogul777 (Jun 2, 2009)

high octane said:


> I'd like to see you make a longer list of religious conflicts than money
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You dear boy have no idea.


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

mogul777 said:


> You dear boy have no idea.


Still waiting for your long list of current/recent religious conflicts.


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## scomac (Aug 22, 2009)

Wars are always the result of ideological conflict. Capitalism is ideology, communism is ideology, Nazism is ideology, Islamic fundamentalism is ideology, environmentalism is ideology too. Those that hold the traditional definition of religion as to some sort of holy scripture often fail to realize that other doctrines can be viewed as religions too. They most certainly can be followed with the same sort of zeal. Economic gain maybe part of the motivating factor for war, but that has never been the only rationale behind it because it isn't mutually exclusive. Ultimately war is always about the desire to achieve greater power by what ever means.


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

I will argue there are many conflicts in Africa and South America that are more about survival/money/power

Rwanda is an example: 500 000 people wiped out for what ideology exactly???

Oppressing people for economic gains is not the same as oppressing them for ideological beliefs.

When countries open up to capitalism, anyone who revolts is labeled ideologist communist, extremist, terrorist etc when they are actually fighting for their resources/land/environment/home etc


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## mogul777 (Jun 2, 2009)

high octane said:


> Still waiting for your long list of current/recent religious conflicts.


Call someone much much wiser than yourself an idiot and your wait will be a very long one. There is yet another tidbit of wisdom for you.

Well said Scomac.


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

Scomac - so…war is just an extension of politics by other means? Would there be room for jus ad bellum? 

High_Octane - Great point! Rwanda is a good example of the difficulty in determining 'what ideology exactly'...nothing is clear cut. Yes, it was mostly about Hutu versus Tutsi BUT in many cases it was also Hutu vs. Hutu. After independence, they failed to modernize their agriculture (darn that pesky capitalism and investment in capital eh?) and just continued to slash and drain and grow their population. Referencing J. Diamond's "Collapse" it was more about food and land shortage, not really ideology nor ethnic strife. The continual division of family sub-plots amongst sons led to a situation whereby no-one could feed their family - the Hutu were smaller so they got 'picked' on. Apparently, Rwandans today argue that "a war is necessary to wipe out an excess population and to bring numbers into line with the available land resources".

Of course Rawanda is a sore point. …and who in the U.N. was in charge - sleeping soundly no doubt, working 9-5 in New York when Romeo Dallaire was forced to sit and watch? Kofi Annon…who was rewarded for his incompetence with the Sec-Gen position. So…we have Mr. Dallaire - one of Canada's better leaders - on a bench due to his compassion and honour - and what does the U.N. do? Put that jackass Kofi in a position where he can keep his personal Kleptocracy going by letting him manage the oil-for-food program amongst others…ugh..you want to clean house? Start with those them.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Both high octane and scomac make good points.

You have to admit though that Capitalism is far more likely to be part of conspiracies then a Dictatorship or Communism system.

In Capitalism there is a great need to keep things secret or you could be voted out or be exposed. You also as a company or a meddling government have a better ability to buy people off and work to make puppets of other governments to gain greater profits and controls. Of course all is done out of the public eye.

Dictators and Communists have control over the people so exposure doesn't matter as much. They also are easier to spot when they enter into the affairs of other countries because everyone knows who their dealing with and what they are. 

I don't know for sure but would Cuba look more like Haiti today without the earthquake if Castro had not taken control.

Of course I do not wish to see Communism or a Dictatorship it is just an observation of how Capitalism would naturally swing.


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

Yes Rwanda is a sore point. I've met LGen Dallaire and several officers and troops who were with him.

While I have the most respect for the LGen and his values, in hindsight he should have just stepped back a bit. Obviously the UN and those in the know just wanted to let things happen, and likely even sparked or influenced things as required

Look who came out on top. US-trained Paul Kagame who's troops were allegedly supplied by USAF transports and are still trained by US special forces.

So why was the UN there to hold peace in the first place



Anyways people need to read a few books or travel to a few war-torn countries before they can even start to comprehend how countries' resources and people are exploited. Just making blanket statements that you're wiser proves nothing


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## scomac (Aug 22, 2009)

John_Michaels said:


> Scomac - so…war is just an extension of politics by other means? Would there be room for jus ad bellum?


Yes in that war is an extension of politics regardless of who is practicing it.

Is there room for a just war? Well, that would depend on your perspective.


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## scomac (Aug 22, 2009)

dogcom said:


> You have to admit though that Capitalism is far more likely to be part of conspiracies then a Dictatorship or Communism system.


No. Capitalism is simply another form of control. I say this simply based on the concept that under that capitalist system there will be a few in control and many whose efforts support and perpetuate the system. All forms of control will rely on lies to maintain their positions of power from time-to-time as ultimately any form of control will be exposed for what it is. This isn't to say that this is all bad because the alternative to control is anarchy which has its own set of problems.


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## mogul777 (Jun 2, 2009)

high octane said:


> Anyways people need to read a few books or travel to a few war-torn countries before they can even start to comprehend how countries' resources and people are exploited. Just making blanket statements that you're wiser proves nothing


And what dear boy do I have to prove? I can and do comprehend more than you likely ever will. I realize this is hard for you to comprehend, lol. 

BTW, a simple search for religious conflict will produce the info you seek. Brilliance is not required for such a menial task. Enjoy.


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

mogul777 said:


> And what dear boy do I have to prove? I can and do comprehend more than you likely ever will. I realize this is hard for you to comprehend, lol.


Yes it's hard when you just make blanket statements

I'll assume you're old since you call me boy.. what did you know at 25? Share some of your wisdom that's what I'm here for


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

dogcom said:


> In Capitalism there is a great need to keep things secret or you could be voted out or be exposed. You also as a company or a meddling government have a better ability to buy people off and work to make puppets of other governments to gain greater profits and controls. Of course all is done out of the public eye.


Agreed, the social democracy part of capitalism is extremely annoying to those who control corporations and the distrubution of money.
It is like a pesky fly that just wouldn't go away and you can't even swat it.
Controllers of corporations need a free hand to expand their ambitions i.e. acquire new markets for their goods, acquire new sources of raw materials, new sources of cheap labor, etc.
All these things like labor unions, import/export duties, taxes, elections, etc. are pesky flies.
Which is why Fascism is the most extreme form of capitalism and is the most likely outcome of advanced capitalism.
Capitalism's most natural tendency is to tend towards a Fasict/Nazi style socio-economic structure.

Various conflicts (religious or otherwise) usually have its roots in some or the other economic struggle underneath.
It's either land, or control or natural resources, control of labor supply that manifests itself in conflict.


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## scomac (Aug 22, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> Which is why Fascism is the most extreme form of capitalism and is the most likely outcome of advanced capitalism.
> Capitalism's most natural tendency is to tend towards a Fasict/Nazi style socio-economic structure.


I'm not so sure about that. I assumed that was the case until it was pointed out to me that Nazi Germany practiced an extreme form of socialism that had a great deal in common with the Communist system as practiced by Stalin. While private ownership was allowed under the Nazis, the control of assets was firmly under the direction of the state. The evolution of economic systems isn't necessarily linear, but more or less circular in that totalitarian regimes of all stripes tend towards similar means of economic distribution.


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

ok, you know a thread is over when somebody writes the word Nazi )


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