# Can't thoil the run up.



## Maybe Later (Feb 19, 2011)

I learned a new word from Gail Vaz Oxlade some time back: Thoil. I understand it to mean you can afford something but can't stomach the thought of paying that much. Essentially, you don't see value in the purchase.

I live in a Western Canadian market that was probably undervalued when we moved back from the States in 2005 and has run up considerably in the past few years. We are thinking of moving to a new house in the same city for life reasons and have started looking around. Since it's been a relatively short period (6 years), it's hard to reconcile what we paid to build in 2006 with what it would cost to buy/build now, even if our house has increased in value (so have our incomes, but with kids we've increased costs also).

Has anyone else had similar experiences? I love our home, but I'm not sure I would want to pay market value for it. Did you end up coming to see value in the higher prices or did you just shake your head the whole time?


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

For what it's worth, I would never buy my (Toronto) house at the current valuation. It's an old house and requires ongoing maintenance. HOWEVER, I love living here and I'm glad I'm not trying to get into this market now.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

I think anyone who is a responsible spender looks at the situation with some concern. 

We are upsizing this year, so I tend to think of the equity we have built up from increasing prices and paying off over half the mortgage. I also think buying and holding for a long time will smooth out prices if or when we get a housing crash. We need to move when we are ready and understand not to time the market. The biggest risk would be not being able to pay the mortgage, like a job loss, but there are so many options to overcome that. However during a housing downturn, you may not be able to sell if you have low equity. 

Moneygal, I know your area and prices have tripeld over the last decade. So even in the place we are in now, which is north on a subway line, I would NOT pay the price it's worth right now.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Our area is nuts. We just looked at a bungalow today, likely built in the 50's, which is on the market for 800k. Yes, it's been renovated inside and it looks nice in the pics. But 800k??


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Yup. The revine facing bungalow at the end of the street for my in-laws sold for 1.2 Million last summer. A... bung...alow.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

People need to spread out more, into cities with cheaper houses. There's lots of cities with very reasonable housing costs all over Canada, where 200k will buy you a 2000 sq ft, 4 bedroom, double garage detached newer house.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Sherlock said:


> People need to spread out more, into cities with cheaper houses. There's lots of cities with very reasonable housing costs all over Canada, where 200k will buy you a 2000 sq ft, 4 bedroom, double garage detached newer house.


Exactlyyyyyyy.

The only way to be rich in the city is to be selling to the people living there.


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## Maybe Later (Feb 19, 2011)

Jungle said:


> ... I tend to think of the equity we have built up from increasing prices and paying off over half the mortgage. I also think buying and holding for a long time will smooth out prices if or when we get a housing crash. We need to move when we are ready and understand not to time the market. The biggest risk would be not being able to pay the mortgage, like a job loss, but there are so many options to overcome that. However during a housing downturn, you may not be able to sell if you have low equity.


I completely agree. We are upsizing the house (from three to four bedrooms) and downsizing the yard (from an acreage to the city). Probably will go from just over 50% equity to just under, assuming the market doesn't change significantly before we list. Still, I shake my head at the 75% increase in our property "value" in the past six years. I would not want to be entering the market now.

It also doesn't help that my TV is often on HGTV (the four most expensive letters in the English language according to David Chilton) and I would love to buy into my neighborhood of choice and take everything back to the studs. That, or custom build again from scratch. I don't think I can justify either, but I'm sure it will need a long look.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I agree 100% with Sherlock about spreading out more. In 2012 it is absolutely absurd that office workers who peck away on computers all day need to be jamming into crowded downtown areas of huge cities. Business needs to be discouraged from doing this via taxation (ie. a congestion tax) which would then encourage them to locate offices in smaller centers in the country that could really use the employment and related spinoff. Office workers should also be able to work at home with teleconferncing and the like. Again, no need for all those people to flood into tiny spaces. Spread out.


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## NotMe (Jan 10, 2011)

Just a slightly different opinion on things: I find living in the city the best way to live in terms of a real sense of community, integrated living with businesses and residences, and access to public transit (subways) very helpful. Yes I agree that there is some capacity for "teleworkers" (remember that?) but in reality, it's much easier to run a meeting when people are there in the room than when they're on the phone. Not all businesses can afford to have proper live meeting licenses, videoconferencing, etc and to be honest sometimes when you just want someone's opinion on something it's easier just to go up and ask them than call them and play voicemail tag.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ A lot of the 'peckers' have already been moved out to the suburbs. People who need to deal with other people in the business on the regular basis are left behind. From my experience, telecommuting or working remotely is okay sometimes. I work in an office that is about a 15 minute drive from the larger office, and even that is a big drag on productivity when I need to meet face to face with people based there. And you can't discount that value of face to face interaction.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

We both work downtown and considered the suburbs until the property tax and transit prices would cost us around $10,000 year. (two monthly tranist pass plus high property taxes.)

The transit has increased 21% since 2008. In the same time, I got a 7.5% raise at work. 

We're going to pay the money and stay in the city.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

My address scores 88 on the walkability scale, or "very walkable:" http://www.walkscore.com/

We walk and bike everywhere. Couldn't do that in the suburbs. I live downtown partly as a reaction to living in the suburbs as a kid and by the tyranny of the school bus and crappy public transit.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> My address scores 88 on the walkability scale, or "very walkable:" http://www.walkscore.com/


I'll play.

*Walk Score: 47
Car-Dependent*


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## Jon_Snow (May 20, 2009)

My property in the Gulf Islands gets a "3". 

Once retired there, I'll be walking a lot anyway, because there will no longer any need to rush anywhere... no more mad dash to catch the ferry back to Vancouver on Sunday nights. Ah... just a few more years...


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I think walkscore.com is kinda broken. Where I live I consider it very walkable, in fact we sold our car over a year ago and haven't missed it much. I bike to work and there are 3 grocery stores within a 10 minute bike ride from here. There are 2 bus stops right outside my door. And I get a "45 - car-dependent" rating on walkscore.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

It's a bit outdated.

It says there is a BNS down the street from my house. The BNS hasn't been there for 8 years.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

It ranks you according to the number and type of amenities you can walk to. If you don't care about walking distance access to those amenities, the score won't matter to you. 

My cousins grew up on the Toronto Islands. They didn't even own a car but I suspect the "walkability index" of their house would be very low - although all they did was walk.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

The walkability score for our condo in Toronto was 97. I can't imagine a more walk friendly location. Couple of hundred metres to King subway, scores maybe hundreds of restaurants, 24 hour Metro store, cinema, doctors, dentist, park across the street. Used to walk to work in 7 minutes including picking up a coffee. Love the downtown location and when you couple it with our home in Canmore(principal residence), cottage in Kawarthas, and new house in Arizona, it really makes us very lucky people indeed.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

OT: where is your cottage, SR? We're on Long Lake (just south of Apsley, north of Woodview).


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Our score is 55, was afraid it would be less ;-)

Both downtown and suburbs offer different qualities, pros and cons, I for one wouldn't change the suburbian lifestyle unless I could live in the Beaches, which won't happen. Despite the commute I still prefer it over busy downtown.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> OT: where is your cottage, SR? We're on Long Lake (just south of Apsley, north of Woodview).


Jack's Lake. love it.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

OK, we are officially neighbours.


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## stephenheath (Apr 3, 2009)

My score is 25, but it seems messed up, most of the categories except a couple it's detecting falsely are 0.5km-0.6km. Since when is that unwalkable? Sure it's not 5 minutes but really, you're car dependent for that?


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> My address scores 88 on the walkability scale, or "very walkable:" http://www.walkscore.com/
> 
> We walk and bike everywhere. Couldn't do that in the suburbs. I live downtown partly as a reaction to living in the suburbs as a kid and by the tyranny of the school bus and crappy public transit.


I thought we would be in the same hood, but mine scored 93.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I am sure you are 5 points ahead of me in many areas of life.


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## Ethan (Aug 8, 2010)

I scored an 85. Both my girlfriend and I walk to our downtown jobs, we're less than 1 km from the grocery store, 2 blocks from the hospital and 2.5 blocks's from our cities largest park. I didn't think we could get better from a walk ability standpoint.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> I am sure you are 5 points ahead of me in many areas of life.


Haha - I doubt that.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Walk Score 98 out of 100 - Walker’s Paradise
Transit Score: 100 out of 100 - Rider's Paradise

Tried a bunch of different neighbourhoods, nothing seems to score 100 on walk score lol. Oh wait I found one, Yonge and Bloor, but this scores lower on Transit 96 out of 100. I wonder where the 100/100 locations are. Looks kind of phoney with these measures though, driving schools shouldn't count as schools for example. The nearest book store is "Game Center"? huh?

I bet most people that live on Bloor don't know their street is named after this guy http://i.imgur.com/JVzob.jpg


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## luisa (Dec 7, 2011)

We live 3 hours southwest of Toronto and recently sold our 300 acre property. I understand completely about not being able to thoil current real estate prices. The home we sold was a custom build in 1999, and cost about $86 per square foot, not including lot. New builds now are running $175 per square foot, not including lot. For this area of the province where living expenses are very affordable, I could not thoil having over $500k of our money tied up in real estate again, not to mention the ongoing expenses of high property taxes, even for a lakefront property.

Instead, we purchased a heritage home in mint condition in a neighbouring small town for the princely sum of $265,000. Double lot, 2500 ft2, garage and car port, within walking distance of all businesses, the theatre, and the arena. Once my kids change from their rural school to the one 3 blocks away, and hockey season is over, my car will rarely leave its parking spot.

Even though we benefitted from the higher values when selling, and we may have overpaid for this property a little, I would rather have that overpayment be in the 10s of thousands than the 100s of thousands.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

What town is that in, if you don't mind me asking? Chatham? When we retire we will likely move to a smaller town and take advantage of the differential between Toronto prices and small-town prices. I'm making a mental list of places to look at.


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## luisa (Dec 7, 2011)

Forest- about 45 minutes west of London, just off of Lake Huron. It has about everything one would need, including a 24 hour grocery store, a new arena with a small Y and running/walking track over the ice, a diverse group of businesses on a picturesque main st, a full sized LCBO and Beer Store, and one of the longest running movie theatres in North America run by the Kiwanis Club. There are about 20 different golf clubs within a 20 minute drive, which doesn't even include the ones closer to London. We are also 25 minutes from the border in Sarnia ( a pretty city with a beautiful waterfront, live theatre, marina, parks, and a downtown filled with quirky shops and a new art gallery under construction) and 1.5 hours from the Detroit Airport.

I have travelled a reasonable amount, and lived in downtown T.O. for university, but there is no place like home in Lambton County. (And yes, that is a shameless plug to encourage more GTAers to discover life west of Mississauga)

Oh, and our property taxes are about $2700 per year. Life is good in Forest


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

ddkay said:


> Walk Score 98 out of 100 - Walker’s Paradise
> Transit Score: 100 out of 100 - Rider's Paradise
> 
> Tried a bunch of different neighbourhoods, nothing seems to score 100 on walk score lol. Oh wait I found one, Yonge and Bloor, but this scores lower on Transit 96 out of 100. I wonder where the 100/100 locations are. Looks kind of phoney with these measures though, driving schools shouldn't count as schools for example. The nearest book store is "Game Center"? huh?
> ...


I put our actual address in and got a walk score of 100. Transit a little lower but subway station is .2 KM away. Not sure how much closer you would want it.


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## Saniokca (Sep 5, 2009)

I got 100 on both walk and transit... I live near university and dundas. Walk to work is about 15-20 mins (bay and front).


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## Jon_Snow (May 20, 2009)

If there was a sea kayaking score, I'd get 100 for sure... I can if fact paddle across an inlet to a little commerical centre in about 15 minutes, whereas to walk, we are talking about and hour and a half... only so much food and booze you can cram into a kayak though....


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I live in the burbs and get a 68 walk score.

I certainly would not buy my house again at today's prices. I paid $156K and last I heard a guy down the street sold for $400K for the same kind of dump I live in. 2 bed bungalows with basement apartments built after the war are not exactly luxury living. 

The main reason I bought my house was the ravine behind it. Until 4-5 years ago I had a 3 acres of wild meadow and a forest between that and the school. 

I was raised in really rural Ontario. My dad and I were talking about this just the other day. I had a lake to go swim in all summer long, trees to talk to, and speaking of walking I remember going on long walks with my grandfather everyday. 

The crisp silence of -40 and starry skies without light pollution. The crazy woodland adventures in the bush. The smell of fresh trees and leaf. The feel of grass on my feet and sunlight in my hair. 

And don't even talk to me about the subway, and mass transit. Just look at everyone's face in rush hour and tell me how happy they are to be there. You'd think every TTC vehicle led to Auschwitz by the body language of the participants. 

In fact my very favorite time in Toronto is about 3 a.m. when 99% of people are sleeping. It's just magical with a new fallen snow and flakes drifting down. It's serene. 

I guess i just don't like people that much.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

A lot of people on mass transit do look miserable. Maybe it's because someone took their iThing away, or they stepped on a broken soda bottle or accidentally sat in a wet seat. Not everyone is that way though. You have to look at the nice things too. People carrying stuff home to their families, people helping other people carry things that people shouldn't be carrying alone, people writing poetry, laughing amongst each other, drawing art, making music, shaving and putting on make up for their big day. There is a lot of great stuff going on!


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## Jon_Snow (May 20, 2009)

I have not been on a transit bus since 1986. Been on Skytrain perhaps 4 times in my life... not sure what this says about me.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Have you been on a ferry? Living on an island does tend to limit your mass transit experience. I take the West Van bus regularly. People are happy.


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## Jon_Snow (May 20, 2009)

Seems like I have lived half my life on the BC ferries... have probably averaged 40 trips per year since I was born - so let's say I have made the Georgia Strait crossing 1600+times - this is probably conservative. And this doesn't include Vancouver-Victoria trips, or Gulf Island-Victoria trips...

I've spent tens of thousands of dolllars using the ferry system. So yeah, I guess I am a transit user.


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## Maybe Later (Feb 19, 2011)

@luisa: Sounds perfect! Build costs here are running at $220-250 per square ft. here, plus lots. 

I did the walk score ... Scored a zero.


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