# Woman arrested, jailed in US for driving with Cdn license



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Someone posted this in a Hot Button thread as well, but I think the story is of more general interest so I'm posting it here.

An Ontario woman was driving with a (valid) Ontario driver's license in the US. She was pulled over, and the officer wanted to see her passport. She did not produce the original passport, and the officer arrested her, and she was jailed.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...for-driving-with-a-canadian-licence-1.4648561

So I guess the message is ... if you're driving in the US, have your passport with you. I'll have to be more careful about this since I frequently drive in the US without my passport. I always keep a photocopy of it, but that may not be enough, so I'll remember to keep my real passport with me.

Realistically that's probably a good idea anyway, especially with Americans becoming more antsy about foreigners and "illegals".


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

I find it odd that she was able to cross the border without the original Nexus or passport. I wouldn't have thought she would have been able to get past customs without one of the other.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Who says she crossed the border without the document? She might have just left the document in her hotel/temporary residence. I always cross the US/Canada border with my passport & NEXUS, but I don't carry them around with me all the time.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The lack of any educational standards for police officers in Georgia is on full display in this case.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

bgc_fan said:


> I find it odd that she was able to cross the border without the original Nexus or passport. I wouldn't have thought she would have been able to get past customs without one of the other.




was anything said or reported to the effect that the young woman had "crossed the border" without passport or Nexus though?

what she told journo Heather Hiscox is that she had deliberately left both documents in a hotel room safe in order to limit the risk of theft or loss. She had digital copies of both documents in her smartphone but when she offered these to the georgia policewoman, the cop refused to look. 

like jas4 with his photocopies while driving about in the US, this young woman had read that digital copies while en route would be sufficient. But she learned the hard way that, for some US policemen, digital or photocopies are not acceptable.

this young woman told hiscox that her jail bail cost her more than $900 USD while getting her car out of impoundment cost more than $200, also in USD.

the upbeat part of the story? it was the nearest canadian consulate that helped her. She's heard that all the bail money is being returned to her, thanks to consular effort.

i think jas4 has a very wise point. The US has become a harsh place. Stay out of the cops' way. Do what they want. Remember, there are even "canadians" - see the toronto massacre thread - who insist that the sworn duty of police is to shoot first.


.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The former American ambassador to Canada was being interviewed on CTV on Sunday and was asked if Canadians entering the US should answer yes to smoking marijuana.

His reply was to be truthful but expect you could be denied entry forever. When further questioned he said the Canadian government needs to get tougher with the US on border crossing.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

bgc_fan said:


> I find it odd that she was able to cross the border without the original Nexus or passport. I wouldn't have thought she would have been able to get past customs without one of the other.


I doubt she could ... especially after the US said that contrary to Martin Reisch's claim that an iPad scan of his passport was accepted, US Customs says the driver's license and birth certificate were what allowed entry.

https://www.cultofmac.com/137922/u-s-customs-now-accepting-ipads-instead-of-passports/
https://www.cultofmac.com/137970/u-...hoto-of-your-passport-on-your-ipad-exclusive/


Since she "just completed a master's degree in geology" in Tennessee, I am not sure why she would have it with her for traveling between states ... but I have not been keeping up with internal travel requirements.



The bigger question for me is where one does not accept a Canadian driver's license as valid for driving - why would a valid Canadian passport be acceptable?
It seems silly to think the passport is an acceptable substitute or somehow makes the Ontario driver's license acceptable.

The part I can see having a valid Canadian passport playing is checking for illegal immigrants.


The next question is why someone at the station didn't question the charge or point out that it was a mistake.


The quote from the probate judge is also puzzling.


> Ms. Nield was afforded the same rights as an American citizen and she had the opportunity to have the facts of her case heard in a court of law, said Judge Chase Daughtrey. In this case, the justice system worked and for that everyone should be thankful.


I will have to check but I am sure that none of my American relatives will agree that the system "worked" or that there is anything to be thankful about this case.


Cheers


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

I caught this story on my youtube feed where CBC interviewed her. 
As mentioned above, had just completed her masters in the states, left her passport at the hotel, had a copy of it on her phone but the cop refused to look at it. 

The cop's actions were pretty unreasonable IMO. 
+1 wrt Ecletic's comment about if the Canadian driver's license isn't believable, why would a Canadian passport be?
The cop shop indicated there's a lot of identity theft along that corridor. But we're talking about a speeding ticket here and a non-excessive variety. What's the likelihood and impact of the driver's license being fake as well as the scan of her passport (if they cared to look at it) versus taking the time to book her into the police station and forcing her to incur all those expenses? Ridiculous. 

That said, personally, I carry my actually passport with me 99% of the time when travelling instead of leaving it at the hotel at the risk of losing so as hopefully avoiding this kind of BS.


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## MrsPartridge (May 15, 2016)

There may be more to this story. She's finishing her masters in Tennessee. I know that you must have a local license from the dmv if you are living in the state for more than 30 days. This is a requirement in Georgia and probably in Tennessee as well. The cop probably wanted her to show a Tennessee license.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

i dunno, to me she’s got shifty-terroristic eyes ... you can always tell by the eyes

the cop shoulda dropped her as soon as she exited the vehicle .... 

BOOM ! 

“welcome to georgia !”


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

MrsPartridge said:


> There may be more to this story. She's finishing her masters in Tennessee. I know that you must have a local license from the dmv if you are living in the state for more than 30 days. This is a requirement in Georgia and probably in Tennessee as well. The cop probably wanted her to show a Tennessee license.


What about all the snowbirds in Florida. Do they all have Florida DLs? I think too many people violate the law without knowing it.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

That's what kind of interesting. She's an attractive young white woman -- a group that's typically left alone by police.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

kcowan said:


> What about all the snowbirds in Florida. Do they all have Florida DLs? I think too many people violate the law without knowing it.


People with student or visitors visas don't need a local DL. They have no permanent address in the USA. The 30 days apply AFTER taking up residence. We were very careful to stay within this 30 day window whenever we re-located to the USA on expat assignments. Most local cops know virtually nothing and have virtually no training, e.g. any politically elected sheriff can appoint whoever s/he wants as deputies.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

AltaRed said:


> People with student or visitors visas don't need a local DL. They have no permanent address in the USA. The 30 days apply AFTER taking up residence. We were very careful to stay within this 30 day window whenever we re-located to the USA on expat assignments. Most local cops know virtually nothing and have virtually no training, e.g. any politically elected sheriff can appoint whoever s/he wants as deputies.


I believe Florida currently has a pending law that stated any foreign visitors had to have an international drivers license. It is currently on hold. 
I don't recall the status or likelyhood it will actually be passed and enforced.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

georgia dmv regulations say that the police “may” consult a passport

https://dds.georgia.gov/drivers-other-nations

this woman was doing everything about as right as you can and the simple answer is that she lost the decent-cop-lottery

the cop who arrested her was a female, maybe that played into it

i suspect 95% of the rest of the cops on the force would let her go


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

twa2w said:


> I believe Florida currently has a pending law that stated any foreign visitors had to have an international drivers license. It is currently on hold.
> I don't recall the status or likelyhood it will actually be passed and enforced.


I vaguely remember media 'take up' on that item about 3-5 years ago. Think it is law but is not being enforced for good reason. Gotta wonder where legislators misplace their grey matter sometimes......


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

MrsPartridge said:


> There may be more to this story.
> 
> She's finishing her masters in Tennessee.
> 
> I know that you must have a local license from the dmv if you are living in the state for more than 30 days. This is a requirement in Georgia and probably in Tennessee as well. The cop probably wanted her to show a Tennessee license.


Maybe ... but even if true, from Geogia's legal perspective, she is a NR so wouldn't the valid Ontario DL take care of all Georgia issues?
Have the states granted authority to each other to jail someone for a misdemeanor offense that likely would not have had a warrant issued?


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> twa2w said:
> 
> 
> > I believe Florida currently has a pending law that stated any foreign visitors had to have an international drivers license. It is currently on hold.
> ...


It passed without comment and came into effect Jan 1st, 2013 but then caused a ruckus.
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/02/14/florida-canada-driving-permit_n_2686709.html

It was thought to violate the Geneva convention.
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/f...-canada-may-violate-geneva-convention-6537612

Which is supposed to be the reason it is not enforced.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/article1947357.html

Then repealed.
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=284eaad2-9a7b-48bb-a30a-6f8f036f3e3f


If you check out the link in fatcat's post #15, Georgia requires "All documents must be in English". 

The recommendation for Quebecers is to avoid driving in Georgia or to get an IDP.
https://globalnews.ca/news/2550528/...ngs-you-need-to-know-when-you-get-to-georgia/


Cheers


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

I think what really happened was the cop decided to teach her a lesson, she was driving in excess of the posted limit, doing 87 mph in a 70 mph zone, 
Maybe they have seen to much of that.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> Which is supposed to be the reason it is not enforced.
> http://www.miamiherald.com/news/article1947357.html
> 
> Then repealed.
> https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=284eaad2-9a7b-48bb-a30a-6f8f036f3e3f


Thanks. I thought I recalled something along those lines.

I had heard that even Americans returning from Florida drive around Alabama to avoid getting hassled by good old boys...and then there was the gal from Quebec who was denied entry because she did not have a visa (because she was a person of colour). Best to avoid those tin star "officials"!

When we chose Mexico in 2003, we considered all the issue with becoming US resident aliens and decided it would only get worse. Mexico gets a bad rap from the press but we have never regretted buying there in 2007.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrsPartridge said:


> I know that you must have a local license from the dmv if you are living in the state for more than 30 days. This is a requirement in Georgia and probably in Tennessee as well. The cop probably wanted her to show a Tennessee license.


I've been dealing with this issue for the past few years myself. The problem is that different arms of the US government have different perspectives on this. In my experience, it's impossible to be fully compliant with all aspects of US law, simultaneously.

For example: like this lady in the story, I am in the US under what is categorized as a temporary visitor permit. US Customs and Immigration does not want me to be a US resident, and they specifically prohibit me from seeking long-term or permanent residence. If US Customs ever thinks that I am trying to become a full fledged resident, then this would be grounds to cancel my existing permit and stop me from entering the country.

Various things help establish residency. Buying a home is a big one, but owning a driver's license is another really big one, recognized in both US & Canada as a chief determinant of where you are a resident.

Due to this and the fact that my permanent residence is in Canada, the professional advice I've been given is to keep a Canadian driver's license -- in other words, keep your driver's license synchronized with your residence & immigration status (permanent in Canada but temporary in US). This can even come up in matters of taxation, another federal issue. To keep things consistent, I keep my driver's license = tax home = permanent residence = Canada.

However -- that is not the way that states see things. The state that I'm in really wants me to get a state driver's license (which means forfeiting and destroying my Canadian DL) because they would like to consider me a resident. The police here definitely would like to see my using a state DL. They may even have a rule that requires getting a state DL.

But I won't get a state DL, because that would create an inconsistency that would threaten my immigration and taxation status. You can't please everyone and you can't always satisfy all parts of US government.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Daniel A. said:


> I think what really happened was the cop decided to teach her a lesson, she was driving in excess of the posted limit, doing 87 mph in a 70 mph zone ...


Isn't that what the Super Speeder fine is partially intended for?
The other aim being to fund trauma centres so that they stay open.

https://georgia.gov/popular-topic/traffic-tickets


Plus if 87 mph in a 70 mph zone is really bad - why have another two levels of higher fines instead of one big blanket, hefty fine?
https://www.drivinglaws.org/resources/traffic-tickets/speed-violations/georgia-speeding-laws.htm


Either way - the surcharges to fund the state as well as the super speeder fine likely add up to a substantial amount. The jail part may be more driven by trying to make sure the fine and surcharge dollars don't escape the state.

Or it could be because Georgia has kept all levels of traffic offenses as criminal as opposed to other state that have decriminalised the minor ones.

https://www.myajc.com/blog/investig...-have-many-extra-fees/a3932GuCyWy8IC6NMNz8OO/

Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> MrsPartridge said:
> 
> 
> > There may be more to this story. She's finishing her masters in Tennessee. I know that you must have a local license from the dmv if you are living in the state for more than 30 days. This is a requirement in Georgia and probably in Tennessee as well ...
> ...


It would seem just the Tennessee gov't on it's own is confusing.

Under the *New Residents*, section - their web site says those holding an out of state license have thirty days to get a Tennessee one.

Under the *Regular Driver License* section, after outlining who is not eligible, there is heading of *Who is not required to have a driver license?*
This says non-residents who have in their immediate possession a valid driver license issued by their home state or country, equivalent to the appropriate class or type of Tennessee license.


Should the woman in the story fit whatever Tennessee considers as a non-resident - she was supposed to keep using her Ontario DL that the Georgia cop said was invalid.


There's no time limit on the NR bit, just the residents one so everything seems to depend on what would convert one from a NR to a resident.


Cheers


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eclectic12 said:


> There's no time limit on the NR bit, just the residents one so everything seems to depend on what would convert one from a NR to a resident.


And there's no clear answer on that either. I've constantly run into this problem over these last few years.

In a sentence like that for example, "convert from nonresident to resident": what form of the word 'resident' do they mean? It has completely different meanings (often contradictory) depending on if it's used in the immigration/customs sense, taxation sense, or casual conversational English.

Even my primary US bank cannot figure out if they think I'm a resident or not. The grey area for dual-residents can be maddening.


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## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

It is amusing how the 27 year old infant takes zero responsibility for getting caught driving 140 km/hr-which is rather severely penaliized these days here in Ontario.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Big Kahuna said:


> It is amusing how the 27 year old infant takes zero responsibility for getting caught driving 140 km/hr-which is rather severely penaliized these days here in Ontario.


Yes, it struck me as odd that this story got so much media traction, ultimately resulting in the withdrawl of charges, but the fact that she had been breaking the law seemed subsidiary. ISTM that she didn't have sufficient identification to satisfy the police, was or wasn't living in the U.S., etc. Not sure why it is surprising that police pulled her in.
I suppose it got so much traction because of the emotional video clip that went 'viral'. Otherwise, we'd have never heard of her.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

i lived in the usa a long time and never once heard of anyone getting taken to jail for doing 84 in a 70 zone (assuming they had no warrants or weren't hassling the cop) that cop was being a total hardass and the publicity is probably falling back on her head via her chief


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

fatcat said:


> i lived in the usa a long time and never once heard of anyone getting taken to jail for doing 84 in a 70 zone (assuming they had no warrants or weren't hassling the cop) that cop was being a total hardass and the publicity is probably falling back on her head via her chief


Having Canadian plates is never a good thing in the US. I still remember when I was a kid, we were pulled over for speeding and fined for speed we couldn't have possibly been doing as the car's tires were out of balance and the car shaked liked mad before that speed. We're easy targets as the cops know it's way too much trouble for us to fight the ticket.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Yup......the I-75 Interstate has a reputation for cops pulling over Canadians to bolster their finances. There are different scams along the interstates from motels to garages.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Big Kahuna said:
> 
> 
> > It is amusing how the 27 year old infant takes zero responsibility for getting caught driving 140 km/hr-which is rather severely penaliized these days here in Ontario.
> ...


Where is she not taking responsibility for speeding or was surprised that she was likely going to be given a ticket for speeding?
Why is it surprising that a valid Ontario license being dismissed as invalid despite the state saying it is valid is news?

Is this not an overreaction similar to catching the grandson caught in a drug sale on the grand parent's porch where the cops used civil forfeiture to seize the grand parents house for their police/DA/Judges benefit?

In both cases, laws were broken but the police actions don't match the crime.




fatcat said:


> i lived in the usa a long time and never once heard of anyone getting taken to jail for doing 84 in a 70 zone (assuming they had no warrants or weren't hassling the cop) that cop was being a total hardass and the publicity is probably falling back on her head via her chief


+1 ... was doing 70 in a 50 zone where after checking my Ontario license and some conversation that included I was headed to a wedding resulted in a written warning instead of the fine I was prepared to pay. I guess I was lucky to be in a more lenient state and/or cop. :biggrin:


Of the many people I know who traveled I 75 to Florida who were issued speeding tickets - I can't recall any that had to post bail or had to pay to get their car back.


Cheers


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

sure, certain roads, certain highways are known to be ticket generating zones where cops hand them out for doing 73 in a 70 zone to residents and canadians alike

i suspect canadian plates often get even more breaks from the police than they do hassles especially in areas that are trying to encourage tourism 

but only a hardass cop is taking someone to jail over an improper license


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Due to this and the fact that my permanent residence is in Canada, the professional advice I've been given is to keep a Canadian driver's license -- in other words, keep your driver's license synchronized with your residence & immigration status (permanent in Canada but temporary in US). This can even come up in matters of taxation, another federal issue. To keep things consistent, I keep my driver's license = tax home = permanent residence = Canada.


As an aside, I'm curious about where one such as yourself get an Ontario address if not actually living there? A friend's or relatives? I'm told the police (at least in Canada) want the address on the DL to be acutally where one is living. Some people don't have a fixed address, like those who live in RV's and travel a lot. What address do they use for their DL, and is it legal since they are not actually living there? everytime one moves they are supposed to report their new address. That makes it impossible for some life circumstances.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

James can outline what he is doing.

One couple who live in their RV year round in the US (up to see family the Northern states in summer, down to Southern states to enjoy the weather/explore/host family in winter) is their daughter's Michigan address. Another couple rented a mailbox. 

They said they are around the ten year mark with no issues.


Cheers


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Pluto said:


> As an aside, I'm curious about where one such as yourself get an Ontario address if not actually living there? A friend's or relatives? I'm told the police (at least in Canada) want the address on the DL to be acutally where one is living. Some people don't have a fixed address, like those who live in RV's and travel a lot. What address do they use for their DL, and is it legal since they are not actually living there? everytime one moves they are supposed to report their new address. That makes it impossible for some life circumstances.


I can only speak for myself: I have a home (apartment) in Canada, so I have a legitimate address there. I am also frequently found there. This is possible due to the flexible nature of my work, e.g. I can easily hop back into Canada and spend a full week working from home.

I'm aware that some people use not-quite-honest addresses, such as the friend's place, but I don't think it's a good idea and I would not do this.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

^
Well that's bloody expensive.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

It's not that crazy. I know some Americans who work in southern Ontario. Some of them keep an apartment or temporary residence on the Canadian side, spending the week days there, but then return to their permanent homes in the US around Buffalo or up state NY.

My place on the Canadian side is owned by the family so I don't pay rent. I do pay some minor household expenses, though.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Pluto said:


> james4beach said:
> 
> 
> > I can only speak for myself: I have a home (apartment) in Canada, so I have a legitimate address there. I am also frequently found there. This is possible due to the flexible nature of my work, e.g. I can easily hop back into Canada and spend a full week working from home.
> ...


Depends on how the numbers all add up and other factors. 

I know of people who have their residence in Sarnia, Toronto, Kitchener-Waterloo, Montreal or Rimouski where they worked at much better paying jobs in Alberta or Ottawa. They all made regular trips from home and/or had some periods of being able to work from home. 

Some are able to expense the second place to stay or had an allowance to offset some of the cost while others are paying the full amount.


Cheers


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