# But Will It Make You Happy?



## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

Thought I would share this NYT article. It speaks to why people find happiness and peace in a frugal, simple life. I found it both interesting and true. As someone who is frugal but surrounded by friends and family who are not, these types of reassuring studies - and forums like this - are a welcome reminder that we are not alone in our desire to be off the "work-spend treadmill" as the article puts it.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Interesting article Dana - thanks for sharing.

One point - in my mind, there is a difference between 'frugalist' and 'minimalist'. 

Frugal can mean just about anything, but I like to think it means trying to save money using various methods. These methods could certainly include having less stuff, but not necessarily so.

Minimalist implies just having less stuff without regard to the cost.

For example; someone who is frugal might have a ton of furniture - but they bought it all very cheaply. A minimalist might have 1 chair for a family of 4, but that chair might be a rare antique that costs $10,000.

Of course, I'm having fun with these examples - I would term the couple in the article as frugal minimalists since they obviously don't spend much money on stuff and they don't have much stuff either.

On a personal note - I would love to get rid of a lot of our extra crap, but it can be difficult when you are married/kids etc to get everyone on board. 

What I need is for the wife to take the kids away for a weekend and I will do some spring cleaning.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

You mean "late summer cleaning!" (Great distinction between "frugal" and "minimalist" though.)

This will sound ridiculous but I have vacation coming up and I am going to spend a fair amount of it cleaning. Between having knee surgery and writing a book this year my house needs a lot of love. 

Watching an episode or two of "Hoarders" absolutely puts me in the mood for reducing the amount of stuff in my personal space!

And yeah, rare is the child who is a natural minimalist.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Brilliant. While I won't be doing the exact same things as they did to save money (driving a bicycle among motor vehicles in typical urban traffic is very dangerous, high-risk behaviour and not suited to our harsh winters) I am glad to see that more and more people are aware of the value of money.

The article is rather optimistic in that it says this sort of thing MAY be permanent rather than just as a temporary measure to the recession. I wish I could be so optimistic. It takes things like the great depression/dust bowl/no cash/no credit to really change minds and attitudes about money.


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

WHatever floats your boat I suppose.

Contribute to their nephews education fund? Huh? I thought parents paying for education was a touch overkill.

I had to work for anything i got, including education. Personally I feel having everything handed to you is the main cause of most economic problems people have. 

We are all so used to having everything as a child then you expect it as an adult. Cant afford it? No problem credit is available.

Round and round we go until you adopt a minimalist lifestyle so you can enable your nephews to do the same thing.

I separate needs from wants. Once the needs are looked after and I can afford the wants I go ahead and buy them. If I cant afford the wants I dont buy them.

Pretty simple eh?

I even dissect wants into life enhancing or not.

Sure I want a brand new car. I can afford to buy one, but I get from a to be with my used car so buying a new one will not enhance my quality of life.

On the other hand I want to buy a drum set. I can afford one, and currently do not own one so it will enhance my quality of life.

I want an Ipad, but I currently have mobile internet on my BB at a very good price point. The ipad will not greatly enhance my life.

Now once my BB plan is up for renewal, I may look at an ipad, and use a pay as you go cell.

Do I really need a cell phone? Not really but the quality of life I derive for the price I pay is an absolute bargain.

A friend of mine who earns 3x what I do lives in a HUGE house way bigger than 2 people actually need. He always drives vehicles no older than 3 years (and we are talking pricey).
GUess who is always broke, and who always picks up the lunch tab?

I define wealth as being able to live your life the way you want.

If that means riding a bike, and living in a small appt so you can pay for your nephews education than who am I to point a finger?

Likewise if you want a sweet ride and a huge mc mansion type house with astronomical property taxes and that makes you happy then so be it.

I'll keep driving my "old" 5 year old car, and go ahead and buy the drum set.
I will be happy but I am not so sure about my neighbors!


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

Four Pillars said:


> One point - in my mind, there is a difference between 'frugalist' and 'minimalist'.
> 
> Frugal can mean just about anything, but I like to think it means trying to save money using various methods. These methods could certainly include having less stuff, but not necessarily so.
> 
> ...


Good Point, 4P and nice examples! I am frugal, but not much of a minimalist. As you point out, minimalism and children do not co-exist amicably. 

Regardless of the label, it is always inspiring to read stories about people living against the grain of consumerism and rejecting society's aquisition-based definition of success.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Dana said:


> Good Point, 4P and nice examples! I am frugal, but not much of a minimalist. As you point out, minimalism and children do not co-exist amicably.
> 
> *Regardless of the label, it is always inspiring to read stories about people living against the grain of consumerism and rejecting society's aquisition-based definition of success*.


I agree! The thing I like about that couple is that they made changes to fix their financial and lifestyle problems and were successful in doing so.

They are far more inspirational then someone who can't pay down their debts because "everything costs so much", but won't change their lifestyle.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

What? You can't expect me to save money. What, do you think I am some kind of wizard? I have two children and an image to maintain.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

But the government said I need to spend, there is a recession you know....


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## square one (Jan 19, 2010)

bean, I agree completely with 'separating wants from needs, take care of the needs and then have the wants as you can afford them'. And I love your definition of wealth being able to live the life you want. Some of my family think I'm cheap because I don't eat at restaurants very often and buy my kids' clothes on sale at the end of the season. My husband and I would rather save up for the inground pool we feel will really enhance our quality of life, hopefully next summer. Those of us who clearly think about what we really will get enjoyment from, then have a plan to make it happen (i.e. save up for it ahead of time) are the smart ones. And I believe the happiest ones, too.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

I think frugality is best when it is a caused by necessity. I see no inherent value in hoarding money. If you can afford it and it brings enjoyment why not spend it? Enjoyment can also be achieved by charitable giving or being very generous to family and friends as well. Cheapness on the other hand is something I don't support.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

This thread reminds me of an article about how more money creates more choices but less happiness. The main thrust was that decisions are much tougher when you can have whatever you want. Too bad the link is not in my memory cells.

We are pretty happy with what we have but we also have friends who are not (and their net worth is in the 8 figures).


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

kcowan said:


> This thread reminds me of an article about how more money creates more choices but less happiness. The main thrust was that decisions are much tougher when you can have whatever you want. Too bad the link is not in my memory cells.
> 
> We are pretty happy with what we have but we also have friends who are not (and their net worth is in the 8 figures).


Agree that money doesn't always or even usually equate with happiness. Not sure that frugality does either though. I have noticed that for some people being "cheap" does seem to give them some sense of beating the system and that seems to make them happy? There seems to be many ways to be happy.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

Square Root said:


> Agree that money doesn't always or even usually equate with happiness. Not sure that frugality does either though. I have noticed that for some people being "cheap" does seem to give them some sense of beating the system and that seems to make them happy? There seems to be many ways to be happy.


Well put.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I notice some people have the inability to understand that if they buy every little thing they want they can't afford the larger things that might bring them a lot more pleasure. 

Some people even enjoy shopping. I don't understand these people. I go to the shopping mall for a specific thing and only under duress. 

I think our kids would be happier with a more minimalist lifestyle as well. I have tons of stupid toys for my son. In fact I have to buy bins and just throw them all in there. He doesn't play with them he dumps them out of the bin. I pick them up. I'm like some kind of toy slave


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## K-133 (Apr 30, 2010)

kcowan said:


> This thread reminds me of an article about how more money creates more choices but less happiness. The main thrust was that decisions are much tougher when you can have whatever you want. Too bad the link is not in my memory cells.
> 
> We are pretty happy with what we have but we also have friends who are not (and their net worth is in the 8 figures).



The studies I've read demonstrate that happiness while making a decision is correlated to the *number *of choices one has in making that decision. I believe it was generally demonstrated that anything over three choices shows significant decrease in happiness. Increased wealth suggests increased choices, therefore you have a sound argument.

Though, one could also argue that a general demonstration does not hold true for each individual. I have no doubt that there are brains out there which adore choices and find their happiness in making decisions. Therefore, for this group, money may in fact buy happiness.

To each their own.

Though I am keen on saving and improving cash flow, I am more of a minimalist than a frugalist. My equation for a purchase includes cost, but does not stop there. As my definition of value is:

Value is proportional to a combination of usefulness and effectiveness over cost.

Is it useful (do I need it)?
It is is effective in what it does, and if so, how effective?
What does it cost?

It should be noted that effectiveness is also a multidimensional variable, as for example, a couch (to me) is not only for sitting, but a major factor in the asthetic an natural 'feel' of a room.

A worn down sofa does not make me feel at peace. Neither, necessarily does a $10,000 sofa.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Ah! Sheena Iyengar's famous jam study. Here's the actual results (the paper is titled "Choice is Demotivating"). 

From an interview with Iyengar on her jam experiment: 

_...what we learned from this study was that while people were more attracted to having more options, that’s what sort of got them in the door or got them to think about jam, when it came to choosing time they were actually less likely to make a choice if they had more to choose from than if they had fewer to choose from. 

And that really ended up starting an entire area of research where we began to look at "Why is that?" And a large part of that has to do with the fact that when people have a lot of options to choose from they don’t know how to tell them apart. They don’t know how to keep track of them. 

They start asking themselves "Well which one is the best? Which one would be good for me?" And all those questions are much easier to ask if you’re choosing from six than when you’re choosing from 24 and if you look at the marketplace today most often we have a lot more than 24 of things to choose from. _

Remind you of anything? Like, say...mutual funds?


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> Remind you of anything? Like, say...mutual funds?


If jam makers made as many varieties of jams as mutual fund companies, we'd have 6,000 different ones to choose from.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Choice theory also shows that when people are presented with a series of investment options (in their group RRSP, for example), they typically divide their funds into equal portions of each option. 

So, if your company offers 3 bond funds and 2 equity mutual funds, you'll have a 60/40 bond/equity mix in your total allocation. But if your company offers 3 equity funds and 2 bond funds, you'll have a 60/40 equity/bond split. What's the right choice? Surely it can't be "split your funds among all available options." 

(I can provide the link to the research paper when I'm not on vacation...)


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## loggedout (Dec 30, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> Ah! Sheena Iyengar's famous jam study. Here's the actual results (the paper is titled "Choice is Demotivating").
> 
> From an interview with Iyengar on her jam experiment:
> 
> ...


Dang, I feel crippled by "choice" in nearly every aspect of life....it's not just w/r/t shopping, it's investing, it's dating, it's moving out/not moving out, it's keep job/change job, it's go back to school/don't go back to school, and then I feel so guilty for feeling overwhelmed by the choices available to me, when many others in the world aren't afforded such opportunities.

The only time I can make a choice is when I'm forced to, otherwise I procrastinate, stall, and brain melt.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> Choice theory also shows that when people are presented with a series of investment options (in their group RRSP, for example), they typically divide their funds into equal portions of each option.


Your morning toast will taste really bad with organge marmalade, strawberry jam, apple sauce and blueberry jam


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I think choices is what keeps people out of the stock market. There are so many companies listed that they don't know where to start. So they buy the index rather than making decisions.

I love making decisions so individual stocks appeal to me even though it is a lot of work. I also maintain a bond ladder. The only places I have a manager look after it is the overseas markets and preferred shares. So I guess there are limits.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

I found that the choices thing works the other way around as well. If you're living a very frugal lifestyle but are convinced it is a choice, you will most likely be happy. However if it gets to the point where it seems like an obligation, unhappiness will usually result. It's an extremely fine line to walk. I know. After reading several downshifting books, I tried it for a year without paid income. I'm back to work now.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

Some Furnaceface:

_27" screen and a 451
50 weeks straight, two in the sun
A little bigger desk, a little bit more
A little bigger gun than the guy next door
But these things don't always satisfy
quite the way they've been advertised
You get one, you want two, you get two, you want three
Ask yourself, how happy do you want to be?
How happy do you feel? This will make you happy

C'mere, have I got a deal for you
A California kitchen and an inground pool
2 1/2 kids in the Aerostar
4 1/2 baths and a trophy on your arm
You feel so good to feel so sore
Mistress gets dressed, motel room floor
I got the loaded model, accessories
You wanna take a spin? Here's the keys_


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## macej (Feb 16, 2011)

Spidey, that's a good post about walking the line! Sometimes saving and being frugal can feel like a chore...and that's when I realize I need to back off and get a better perspective. Growing up poor (I'm in my mid-30s and grew up far below the poverty line) taught me an excellent life lesson, though I certainly couldn't understand it at the time. My mother taught me to pay for quality but only buy what you need. I also often tell myself "do I need it, or do I want it?". This one question can easily compel me to put items back on the shelf and walk. Another lesson in life was experiencing several close family members die, again, the lesson always came later. It helps to put money in perspective; we all only need so much and our health and relationships are truly the priceless items in our lives.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

I think part the problem is people don't sit down and think if their wants are actually THEIR wants, or just something they have been lead to believe they want. I have many friends (college aged) that seem to have strong desires for "nice things". On the surface I could convince myself I want those nice things too, but if I think harder about it, all it is is a brief moment of socially-programmed envy going through me. While I'm young I don't care about nice things. Is that 3 burner Weber bbq going to make my life ANY better than a garage sale Broil King? an iPhone instead of my 5 year old Nokia? Or having my own car instead of taking the bus or borrowing/renting a car on occasion? 

What I want now in my life is upbeat, memorable experiences. So I don't mind dropping $50-$100 on a fancy dinner with good friends, and just 2 weeks ago I blew $1000 on a trip skiing in the Rockies over reading week. Not having too many "nice things" has enabled me to take trips while still being fiscally responsible.
I suspect as I get older my priority may shift from having vivid experiences to providing comfortable living. I think the key is to really look into yourself to find out what YOU really want, with no external influences allowed into your head. Then you can keep yourself truly happy in a financially sensible manner. 
Every time I've made a rushed purchase I've regretted it. ipod, netbook, stereo - All horrible wastes of money, for me. But if I allow myself time to think hard about a purchase, I very rarely regret it.


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## Barwelle (Feb 23, 2011)

Square Root said:


> I think frugality is best when it is a caused by necessity. I see no inherent value in hoarding money. If you can afford it and it brings enjoyment why not spend it? Enjoyment can also be achieved by charitable giving or being very generous to family and friends as well. Cheapness on the other hand is something I don't support.


I support cheapness. I have two theories regarding frugality:

One: Being cheap allows me to get more from my money. But I'm not one of those people who doesn't do anything. I go on trips, I see shows, etc. I take some weekends to go snowboarding in the Mountains. When I go, I stay in a hostel, and bring food or shop at the grocery store rather than eat out and stay in a hotel. The way I see it, I can go twice for the cost of going once, and my quality of experience really hasn't changed... I still get a bed to sleep in, I still get fed. So I stretch my dollar, I get more of an experience or more entertainment because I cheaped out.

Another example, I'd rather spend $10 on a six pack and hang out at one of my buddy's houses than go to the bar, pay 5$ a drink plus tip, and pay whatever for a taxi. Drinking is really a waste anyway, you're basically flushing money down the toilet, but it's a social thing, so I still participate. (Not to the extent that some do, though.)

But I'm not always cheap, which leads me to my second theory: Someone else mentioned it on this thread, but I pay an extra buck for quality product if I am buying a big ticket item. My '05 Civic... one of the most reliable, fuel efficient vehicles out there. Costs a bit more up front, but it'll last, and operating costs will be low. I even cheaped out on it: I paid a discounted price because it had some paint damage that I'll either fix up DIY style, or just leave because it won't rust! (The pluses of plastic bumpers)

I used to buy cheap jackets, but found that they would not be nearly as waterproof as they claimed, or would split at the seams after only a year, or would fit funny, or whatever... so a year ago, I bought an Arcteryx jacket. Expensive, but supposed to last and perform like no other. So far, I'm happy (although it hasn't been long enough to determine if it was actually worth while)

Now as for the original subject, minimalism, well I have a hard time with that. I'm kind of a hoarder... I collect things that my family would otherwise throw out. I hate to see good-condition furniture, clothes, books, etc. go to the dump because they are out of style! I gotta start donating what I've collected. Habitat for Humanity collects and sells household items, furniture, and construction materials to fund their projects, many shelters and the like are always looking for furniture and other goods, and of course there's Goodwill.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I see there is a difference between cheap, frugal, and minimalist.

I am seldomly (if ever) cheap. I think of this as doing things in at the expense of others, or at my own enjoyment. 

I can be very frugal. I try to get the best deal for everything I buy. I pay the minimum of what I have to for something I want or value. It seems contradictory that I will clip coupons, shop sales, but then I will spend a large amount on a luxery item or go out for a really expensive dinner. I will look for the least expensive way to obtain the luxery item, but will still purchase it.

I am definately not a minimalist though. I buy what I want. We have a lot of stuff in our house. There are a lot of things that we still want. We do however review our wants and prioritize them based on what we can afford. I don't see anything wrong with wanting things, especially expensive items. If they bring someone enjoyment and they can afford it.


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