# The Dirty Dozen



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a title I liked, no insult intended to anyone. I visit different types of forums and participate in some more than others. Travel forums for example. One of the things I have noticed that seems to be pretty universal is that there is a core group of regular posters and it is often a relatively small group. ie. a dozen or so. This forum is no different in that respect.

I sometimes wonder if the 'dirty dozen' all stopped posting at the same time, what would happen to the forum? Hello............anybody home??????????


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

I've noticed that as well in other on-line groups.

Not so much here, especially with money related topics where people try to be helpful - but there tends to be a clique of frequent posters. When a new or infrequent poster contributes to a thread, it tends to be ignored. Later, one of the clique users post pretty much the exact same thing, and it gets lots of response. So it appears that it's less about what is said, than about who said it?

And then there's reddit, where everyone is equally attacked for any opinion :^)


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I have noticed that the number of posters here has dropped since the moderators displayed clear bias towards certain posters, issuing them warnings when the known trolls provoked them. A few of these warnings were unwarranted.

Hopefully it will recover a new innocent people engage. But posters beware.

(As a side-note, there was a very active forum that had an outpouring of rage against the founder. So he shut it down. Now he is trying to resurrect it and nobody visits. Internet is very fickle!)


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I notice most forums have far less traffic than before. I used to go to forums for car/house/tech troubleshooting but nowadays I will just youtube it. For my work the most active online information used to be on a forum, now the forum is an echo chamber of old hats and the current discussion and news has all moved to the sub reddit. Even the journalists get their leads on said subreddit now, and even reference the reddit comments from time to time. Reddit is just more mobile friendly than forums really, plus you can subscribe to any community from one app/site. It's a lot better for subjects you just want to follow updates than a forum because you don't have to visit various sites. CMF is my last forum to kick.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^Reddit for more internet natives and facebook for normies.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> ^Reddit for more internet natives and facebook for normies.


Reddit is dealing with some pretty blantant sidelining.
Realistically I can't really blame them, the way the British media has come out against some people is crazy.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Reddit is dealing with some pretty blantant sidelining.
> Realistically I can't really blame them, the way the British media has come out against some people is crazy.


I can't understand this comment. Nothing against you! I just don't understand what it means. What is sidelining? What does the British media have to do with Reddit?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

What does Reddit and anything to do with it, have to do with the topic of this thread? Duhh, is it that some people are just not capable of understanding what a topic is or do they actually think, digressing onto other topics is a reasonable response to an existing topic?

'Do you like to visit France?'
On topic, 'Yes, I like France'.
OFF topic, 'I like to visit Germany.'

Get it?

'What do you think about the small number of regular posters on a forum?'
On topic, 'I see that in many forums.'
Off topic, 'I like Reditt'. Or, 'what does the british media have to do with Reddit?'


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> What does Reddit and anything to do with it, have to do with the topic of this thread? Duhh, is it that some people are just not capable of understanding what a topic is or do they actually think, digressing onto other topics is a reasonable response to an existing topic?
> 
> 'Do you like to visit France?'
> On topic, 'Yes, I like France'.
> ...


Personal Finance Canada (a subreddit) competes directly with CMF. Fewer trolls and no obvious insiders as moderators.

Sidelining is allowing stream of consciousness to drive a thread rather then a slavish dedication to the thread topic. It is what keep some threads alive.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> *I visit different types of forums and participate in some more than others.* Travel forums for example. One of the things I have noticed that seems to be pretty universal is that there is a core group of regular posters and it is often a relatively small group. ie. a dozen or so. This forum is no different in that respect.
> 
> ...
> 
> What does Reddit and anything to do with it, have to do with the topic of this thread?


Ummmm, your OP kinda opened the door to discuss on-line forums in general, not specific to CMF. Sorry I brought up Reddit if that wasn't the thread intent.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> What does Reddit and anything to do with it, have to do with the topic of this thread? Duhh, is it that some people are just not capable of understanding what a topic is or do they actually think, digressing onto other topics is a reasonable response to an existing topic?


You asked why there are only a few posters on most forums. This was not the case back when forums were the place to go for online discussion. Forums are kind of a has been now that most activity has moved to more modern social media sites.

Forums are just small core groups because the majority are using (current ranking if I remove foreign language based sites) Google, YouTube, Facebook, Wikipedia, Yahoo, amazon, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Netflix, LinkedIn, Twitch etc


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

m3s said:


> Forums are just small core groups because the majority are using (current ranking if I remove foreign language based sites) Google, YouTube, Facebook, Wikipedia, Yahoo, amazon, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Netflix, LinkedIn, Twitch etc


Wow you had me all the way to Twitch! But for everyday, it is FWF, CMF, ER.org, FB, Reddit and infrequently Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn.

Too bad we don't have less variety and better quality!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

What matters to me is firstly, relevance to my interest or need, secondly, signal to noise ratio, thirdly civility, and finally moderation impartiality and consistency.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> You asked why there are only a few posters on most forums. This was not the case back when forums were the place to go for online discussion. Forums are kind of a has been now that most activity has moved to more modern social media sites.
> 
> Forums are just small core groups because the majority are using (current ranking if I remove foreign language based sites) Google, YouTube, Facebook, Wikipedia, Yahoo, amazon, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Netflix, LinkedIn, Twitch etc


See, that is what I mean by people not being able to understand what a topic is. What I asked was in fact quite simple m3s and yet you obviously found some way in your mind to completely change the topic. I asked, "I sometimes wonder if the 'dirty dozen' all stopped posting at the same time, what would happen to the forum?"

I did NOT ask, 'why there are only a few posters on most forums.' I agree with your answer to YOUR question, now what is your answer to the question that I asked in the OP? It certainly cannot be the answer to the question you invented.

What would happen if the small core group stopped posting?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

kcowan said:


> Personal Finance Canada (a subreddit) competes directly with CMF. Fewer trolls and no obvious insiders as moderators.
> 
> Sidelining is allowing stream of consciousness to drive a thread rather then a slavish dedication to the thread topic. It is what keep some threads alive.


I have no problem with a thread taking on a life of it's own kcowan AFTER the topic in the OP has been covered. I have a problem with the topic not being covered and the thread being sidelined from the get go.

M3s's comment as to what the question asked was to begin with, is a perfect example of that.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Longtimeago,

Are you talking the dozen who provide consistent information or the dozen who tend to troll and stir things up? 

If the second group stopped posting, I think the number of views would go down (I think people seem to be entertained by them, as the threads they tend to troll on have significantly higher views) and the postings would be more civil and less frustrated sounding. 

If the first group stopped, it would be because there is nothing more to be said on a subject and someone would have to introduce a new thread to get interest started again. Basically the forum would become much quieter. 

Sadly, it looks like without the trolls, forums would die.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Userkare said:


> Ummmm, your OP kinda opened the door to discuss on-line forums in general, not specific to CMF. Sorry I brought up Reddit if that wasn't the thread intent.


The topic and the question asked were very simple Userkare. Reading comprehension however seems to be lacking. 

I think a lot of people aren't really very good at listening/reading. As they supposedly listen/read, they are thinking about all kinds of things RELATED to what is being presented to them by the speaker/writer. As a result, they don't actually LISTEN to what was presented to them, they actually think they heard as m3s last comment shows so well, something entirely different. Something that they have thoughts about and where their mind went when they were NOT listening to what was being presented to them.

I did not ask 'why are there so few posters' and yet that is what m3s somehow thinks the topic was. I did not ask about online forums as a general topic, I asked, 'what would happen if the regular posters stopped posting?' 

How does bringing up Reddit in any way relate to the question I asked? Answer, it does not. Can you tell me how you managed to misinterpret the intent of the thread when the statement was made, 'same regular posters' and the question asked, 'what would happen if they stopped posting?' There is absolutely no way I can see you misinterpreting the intent of the thread if you LISTENED to the OP as presented.

If I were to ask 'what did you eat for breakfast', do you think an appropriate response would be, 'I never eat fish'? Or if someone else were to respond, 'breakfast is the most important meal of the day.' There is a relationship to the words in the question as asked, only in that they refer to eating. But the topic was not 'eating' in general and what thoughts it brought to people's minds, it was a very simple and direct topic and question. Breakfast, what?

Hearing and listening are not the same thing. Listening is about comprehension of what is being said, not just hearing the sounds in your ears or reading the words written. Listening is the ability to accurately receive and interpret messages in the communication process. Given the OP as written, to suggest that the intent of that OP was to discuss online forums in general is simply not possible.

So, back to the TOPIC. What do you think would happen if the 'dirty dozen' stopped posting? I think there would be few and sometimes no responses to new threads in many cases. I think there would be less new topics as often they are started by the dirty dozen. I think the 'traffic' in the forum would decrease considerably. I think that in a relatively short time, a forum would die as a result. 

If you came into a forum and saw that there had only been 3 new posts listed in the last 5 months and only 1 of the three even elicited a response, how likely is it that you would post a new thread? Or would you look and say, 'oh this place is dead, waste of time, I'll look elsewhere for a place to post my question and expect to get an answer.'

That is what I think would happen if the dirty dozen stopped posting. Now if we all agree on that, THEN we could move on to what comes out of that agreement on the answer to the OP. THEN the thread could reasonably diverge from there.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> Longtimeago,
> 
> Are you talking the dozen who provide consistent information or the dozen who tend to troll and stir things up?
> 
> ...


Interesting take on it Just a Guy. I hadn't thought about the impact of the 'dirty half dozen' of trolls, dissenters as a subset of the 'dirty dozen' not posting. You do realize that you yourself are considered a dissenter. LOL

I think you are on an interesting track here though. If everyone agreed on everything, rather than a 'forum' in the sense of a place to discuss and yes ARGUE differences in opinion or approaches to something, it would simply be a place to ask a question for which everyone agreed on the same answer which would be pretty boring other than for the person who simply wanted an answer to a simple question.

I think forums may need to realize that in fact they are no longer needed for the simple dissemination of facts. Anyone with half a brain and who is not too lazy to do their own work, can easily Google the answer to any fact related question. It is only opinion related questions that you cannot Google a definitive answer for and even then, you can certainly find lots of opinions using Google.

So, back to your point that forums would die. Should forums then not be encouraging rather than discouraging discussion and argument on a topic? That to me is the only place for them to go if they wish to survive. That does not mean of course allowing uncivilized behaviour, insulting another poster is not necessary to disagree with their view on something. 

It does seem to me that forums are trying to discourage disagreement though rather than encourage it. That may be a big mistake.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The thought just occurred to me that removing the Hot Button from General Discussions is a good example of discouraging disagreement and trying to keep all threads 'nicey, nicey. a.k.a. boring.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> The topic and the question asked were very simple Userkare. Reading comprehension however seems to be lacking.
> 
> 
> How does bringing up Reddit in any way relate to the question I asked? Answer, it does not. Can you tell me how you managed to misinterpret the intent of the thread when the statement was made, 'same regular posters' and the question asked, 'what would happen if they stopped posting?' There is absolutely no way I can see you misinterpreting the intent of the thread if you LISTENED to the OP as presented.


The answer to your OP question was self evident, and self answered ("Hello............anybody home??????????")... *Q*: What would happen to 'anything' if the most frequent participants in that thing were to stop participating? *A*: It ceases to exist, unless new participants are welcomed. End of discussion. Very exciting informative thread; thanks for your insight.

I was hoping originally to expand on the question of the demise of a forum by the loss of the core particpants by introducing the observation that new particpants are ignored in favour of the core participants. This discourages new participants from sticking around, and hence if the core participants leave, there's nobody to fill the vacuum. The reddit example is that it's more of a free-for-all forum where any opinion is likely to elicit a response from someone, usually negative.

Maybe my response was too indirect for you? Maybe you should use "ELIF" when you want a simple answer.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I never did say which group I belong in, I’ll leave that to others to decide. I can only determine what I think, not what others think.

I don’t agree with you that google is the place with all the answers, especially when it comes to investing. Look how many people on this board, for example, look to HISA, couch potato, e series funds, etc. Basically trying to eek out 2-3% returns. For people who want to try something better, google really isn’t your friend. You need a forum like this to expose people to alternatives that aren’t scams.


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## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

Just a Guy said:


> Sadly, it looks like without the trolls, forums would die.


I would disagree. Some people abandon forums because the discussions turn too nasty and argumentative. As moderator, I've heard from several people who said they just cannot deal with this forum because of so much aggressive and hostile content. And we certainly get complaints about those kinds of posts.

This is a reason we've recently stepped up moderation in an effort to put an end to hostile posts.

The internet is full of discussion places where trolls run rampant. There is no shortage of places to go if someone really likes aggressive interactions. But CMF is not one of those places.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Trolls aren’t just aggressive, to me a troll is someone who blatantly posts false information continuously or posts designed to rile up (bait) people rather than posting useful information which is actually helping people. There are several people on this forum who’ve never posted anything to do with investing or making money yet have thousands of posts.

Also, if you look at the threads with the most views, it certainly seems to have more of these kinds of posts so people, even if they officially complain about the “quality” of the posts, certainly seem drawn to the “entertainment” posts more so than the useful ones.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I rarely agree with, or believe JAG, on much of anything he says but on this I do. Trolls are different than aggressive behaviour. CMF has its share of trolls as well as aggressive posts albeit some action has been taken on the latter. Moderators need to recognize both are 'cancers' in the signal to noise ratio, the value of which has declined precipitously over time in this forum. I don't come here for entertainment. I am here with with an intent to gain more knowledge, primarily in capital investing matters, and hopefully to impart useful contributions most of the time....albeit I concede to having participated in some of the spats as well. The latter is not conducive to the well being of a financial discussion forum.


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## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

We may have different definitions of trolls. In any case, activity and engagement on a thread is not an indicator of quality or desirable content. Some of the most useless, toxic threads in Hot Button were hundreds of pages of never ending arguments.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

That was my point.


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## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

Longtimeago said:


> The thought just occurred to me that removing the Hot Button from General Discussions is a good example of discouraging disagreement and trying to keep all threads 'nicey, nicey. a.k.a. boring.


No question there was some interesting content in Hot Button, but the negatives outweighed the positive effects on the forum. The posters who were most often engaging in Hot Button also tended to not participate in financial discussions.

Political threads are still allowed. If people want to debate the merits of the various political parties, there's no problem with that. However the discussions will have to be civil, not the aggressive free-for-all that emerged in Hot Button.

It should be possible for people to debate topics without resorting to being nasty and offensive.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

moderator2 said:


> We may have different definitions of trolls. In any case, activity and engagement on a thread is not an indicator of quality or desirable content. Some of the most useless, toxic threads in Hot Button were hundreds of pages of never ending arguments.


Something for everyone - the 10 types of trolls..... https://www.lifewire.com/types-of-internet-trolls-3485894


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> That is what I think would happen if the dirty dozen stopped posting. Now if we all agree on that, THEN we could move on to what comes out of that agreement on the answer to the OP. THEN the thread could reasonably diverge from there.


That is a hypothetical question so any answer will do. Here goes: the forum will die. Now let's get on with discussing the tangents/sidelines that are more interesting.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> The thought just occurred to me that removing the Hot Button from General Discussions is a good example of discouraging disagreement and trying to keep all threads 'nicey, nicey. a.k.a. boring.


You joined less than a year ago, so weren't around when Hot Button was created. It wasn't always around, see. It isn't as simple as discouraging disagreement, or keeping things nice. These things go in cycles, and I've seen it time and again since the days of usenet.

Hot Button was created around April 2014, when things had gotten rather heated in the General Discussions/non-money related section. Read the 21 pages if you're bored, or just jump to page 17 where a moderator indicated they'd create the Hot Button sub-section. 
https://www.canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/20354-Too-many-controversial-topics-on-quot-General-Discussion-quot

Folks thought that by creating a fenced off area for heated discussions would keep the rest of the forum more civil. It worked for a time, but inevitably Hot Button became rather caustic. As is often the case, the hostility among members that builds in that forum, spills over to the other sections. The hostility comes out even when the topic doesn't warrant it, just because of the 'collision' they had in the HB section.

So now the mods have had enough, shut down Hot Button, strictly enforce the forum rules. Things will calm down again, and I'm sure in a couple of years, it will cycle back to create another Hot Button section.

Things really do go in cycles - maybe Lonewolf is on to something.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

moderator2 said:


> The posters who were most often engaging in Hot Button also tended to not participate in financial discussions.


I just read this after posting a tiresome reply to the Unexplained Wealth Orders thread which is a "financial discussion" only in tangential fashion.

Indeed I am guilty, guilty, guilty and should be shot for my conspicuous lack of participation in financial discussions. I know not much about most of it. Would that I could sound jaded about it all, as in a recent scorpion post about current buying:



scorpion_ca said:


> Same old...ZRE, VCN, VUN, XEF, XEC and a little bit of ZPR.


Or would that I could sound learned in the following fashion:



agent99 said:


> I have been looking at a few preferreds and wondering what to buy.
> I looked at Algonquin A (@19.74) and D (@21.30) . Current yield 6.6% and 6% vs new BMO.PR.F (trading at $25.35) that will yield 5.1% at par. All have maturity in 4.5-5 years.
> Tried buying an FTS pfd that I already own as well as PVS and no volume on these so no trade.
> AQN A and D reset at GOC+2.94 and 3.28 resp and BMO at GOC+3.51.
> Right now GOC is at 1.68, but it has been down at about 0.4 - A reason why rate reset got hit hard a while ago?


And if I could only replicate the scholarship reflected in some of hp's pithy posts about the essentials of investing.

But, alas, I cannot.

So where does that leave me? I have a handful of stocks put into an RRSP years ago and ignored since. Can't tell you what they are. The RRSP is really a liability to me, since I fell for the advice that it will save tax now and you can take it out when your income drops in retirement and pay less tax. I suspect that a few here have fallen into that trap. The advice should be that RRSPs are good for people to cannot manage money and who will have low incomes later on. But for many, me included, my income is now greater than in the past and my forced RRSP (RRIF) withdrawals after age 71 will be taxed hard. So, no, I have nothing to offer there. Except to admit my mistake.

That really leaves real estate, it would seem, as an investment vehicle worthy of discussion on cmf. What can I say there? I have but one rental property. It's in the US, not even Canada. I have owned it for about 25 years and the general advice here seems to be that US real estate is a bad idea. So not much to contribute there. And, as far as RE investing in general goes, there are one of two others here who know more about that form of investment than I'll ever know. They own enough real estate to be in a position to take their holdings and separate from Canada.

In recent years I have invested quite a bit (albeit as a newcomer, coattailing others) in forest lands and forest tenures and products and done what, to my modest senses, is quite well. But I think I am alone in that department on cmf, so why start threads regaling folks about whether I think current prices for western red cedar sawlogs will be sustainable? I recently hooked up with a guy who knows a lot about nut crops and we planted a couple of hundred hazelnut trees. Any benefit from that will redound more to my heirs, not me. That kind of "investment" would no doubt be seen as nuts on cmf. And, as I admit, these recent investment forays have really not involved much perspicacity on my part. I am a greenhorn with good mentors.

So all I have left is some knowledge of the law. That's mostly what I post about. Not very finance-oriented and I only engage in the topic when replying to someone who has raised a legal issue. Not really sure why I do, because I think most of it is unwelcome and gets ignored. For example, a poster _sub nom_ "gocanada" recently posted a query under the thread title "Landlord Living with Tenant - what happens if Landlord passes away?" I took time to write a considered opinion. The OP never returned to the thread. That's a problem endemic to some (by no means all) forums. Members without manners. They cannot be bothered to acknowledge replies. That's part of the reason why I absent myself from cmf from time to time. Also, threads that run for pages and pages with a handful of participants endlessly slagging each other tends to cause me to direct my attention elsewhere. I see some sniping on other forums, but cmf has developed it to a high art. I also bow out now and again because I simply have too many other interests to pursue. To be active on any forum sucks up time. I have a lot of things I enjoy doing that actually rank ahead of tarrying on cmf. Like right now. I should be out hauling in my prawn traps. They have been soaking since last night.

One point of pride for me is that my legal posts are always well-researched _and_ I post my authority; my source material. If I say the law is such and such, I provide a link to a court decision or a statute, or a scholarly legal source that backs me up. I expect no one to take my word as counting for much otherwise.

Another reason for my falling silent for periods of time here is to spare cmfers from an excess of my tedious posts. If I posted more often, I would expect to be told to take a long walk on a short pier.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Mukhang pera. I, for one, highly appreciate your well thought out and researched replies on legal matters. I think many others do as well, but don't respond with appreciation. That is highly unfortunate given the effort put into your replies, and those replies from a number of other members in their areas of expertise as well. I think we simply have to accept common courtesy is a lost quality in the digital chat world and those that respond with their knowledge and wisdom are doing it pro bono, perhaps with the hope it helps some in the silent majority. Consider your niche as 'giving back' and if providing legal input is all that you wish to do, then I'd say that is enough unto itself.

I think it is also important to acknowledge the primary theme/thesis of each forum. Clearly CMF is focused on personal finance as it relates to stocks, bonds, banking, budgeting, and associated financial and retirement planning. Those whose interests lie elsewhere need to find the 'discussion' forum that caters to those interests rather than try to 'force' the issue in chat rooms for which there is very little interest. Most members will/should just blow by topics that are not of interest anyway.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> The topic and the question asked were very simple Userkare. Reading comprehension however seems to be lacking.
> 
> I think a lot of people aren't really very good at listening/reading. As they supposedly listen/read, they are thinking about all kinds of things RELATED to what is being presented to them by the speaker/writer. As a result, they don't actually LISTEN to what was presented to them, they actually think they heard as m3s last comment shows so well, something entirely different. Something that they have thoughts about and where their mind went when they were NOT listening to what was being presented to them.


I re-read your OP and the only question there still sounds rhetorical to me



Longtimeago said:


> I sometimes wonder if the 'dirty dozen' all stopped posting at the same time, what would happen to the forum? Hello............anybody home??????????


You may think you are "speaking" something clearly online but when verbal communication is body language and tone maybe it's your writing that needs work


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Mukhang pera said:


> But for many, me included, my income is now greater than in the past and my forced RRSP (RRIF) withdrawals after age 71 will be taxed hard. So, no, I have nothing to offer there. Except to admit my mistake.


I am also enduring total clawback of my OAS. I suspect it is a common theme among the investing class. I did appreciate the tax relief back when it happened. And I am pleased (well maybe accepting) of the opportunity to pay back. I do not resent it. In another place, LTR showed us that total clawback was the equivalent of $300k in investment income. Let our experience show the way to TFSA choices and other ways to avoid current income tax for younger people.


Mukhang pera said:


> For example, a poster _sub nom_ "gocanada" recently posted a query under the thread title "Landlord Living with Tenant - what happens if Landlord passes away?" I took time to write a considered opinion. The OP never returned to the thread. That's a problem endemic to some (by no means all) forums. Members without manners. They cannot be bothered to acknowledge replies.
> 
> One point of pride for me is that my legal posts are always well-researched _and_ I post my authority; my source material...


I agree that many posters only stick around for a few days so by the time your excellent responses are posted, they are no longer listening. This is not disrespect. It reflects that they have many choices and will find immediate response in Reddit. It will never be as god as yours, but they have a short attention span. I look forward to your posts because they provide knowledge that I don't need at present but might need in the future.

Your choice of where to live probably holds great promise for those that are getting eaten up by their current jobs. I know a couple who choose to live on Gambier Island. They are very social so they always have company. Steve Salter chose Hornby Island which was 3 ferry rides away from his wife's home in West Vancouver. It worked for him. Just not for more social people. He kept connected with his RRIFmetic user base.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Mukhang pera said:


> The RRSP is really a liability to me, since I fell for the advice that it will save tax now and you can take it out when your income drops in retirement and pay less tax. I suspect that a few here have fallen into that trap. The advice should be that RRSPs are good for people to cannot manage money and who will have low incomes later on. But for many, me included, my income is now greater than in the past and my forced RRSP (RRIF) withdrawals after age 71 will be taxed hard. So, no, I have nothing to offer there. Except to admit my mistake.


+1 Same here. 



Mukhang pera said:


> So all I have left is some knowledge of the law. That's mostly what I post about. Not very finance-oriented and I only engage in the topic when replying to someone who has raised a legal issue. Not really sure why I do, because I think most of it is unwelcome and gets ignored.


There are posters that I skim over or ignore, but you ain't one of them for sure. I was quite glad to see you posting again. Always interesting and knowledgeable posts.

ltr


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

kcowan said:


> That is a hypothetical question so any answer will do. Here goes: the forum will die. Now let's get on with discussing the tangents/sidelines that are more interesting.


Yes, it is a hypothetical question kcowan. Congratulations on reading that correctly. M3s insists it was a rhetorical question. What do I know, I only wrote the sentence.

Now that you have answered the question, what tangent/sidelines do you want to suggest that are more interesting and more interesting to who? Me or you?


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Good morning, cmf.

I took myself out under a much-needed rain and pulled the 2 prawn traps of which I spoke. A total of 78 keepers (the egg-bearing females must be returned to the ocean, and small ones are not kept). I also released one small octopus that felt more like eating my prawns than catching his (her?) own. And there was one box crab. 

The commercial prawn season opened last week, but none of the commercial boats are fishing close to us, as yet. Perhaps they have decided to respect our 12-mile limit this year. Some years they set up right in front of our house, in contumelious disregard of our territorial waters.

Comforting to hear that some here actually read and enjoy my law posts. I_ do_ try to keep them on point and accurate. 

Recently some locals who own their lands in a cooperative came to me and advised that they had got behind on filing annual reports. So much so that the coop was dissolved by the Registrar of Companies more than 2 years ago. The real problem there is with the coop having ceased to exist, the land has been forfeited to the Crown under the Escheats Act. Since more than 2 years have passed, the registrar cannot restore to coop to the register. It must be by way of Supreme Court order. There has to be a BC Gazette publication, service on the Attorney General, etc., etc. A lot of hoops to jump through. These folks do not have the funds to pay a lawyer $400 an hour to sort through the mess. As a _pro bono_ worker, I represent a good deal. But even the disbursements will run about $500. I have never done a corporate (or coop) restoration before. So I am studying and figuring it all out. If anyone here has done one, let me know! I'd love someone to send me a set of precedents for the necessary affidavits, notice forms, form of order, etc. But I suspect I'll just have to sort it out on my own. Then, later, I'll be able to assist anyone on cmf with a dissolved coop on their hands. But best advice...keep up with those corporate filings at $30/year. Saves a whole lot of headaches.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Your mini-homemade-ocean farming sounds very interesting. And I don't mind reading your law-related postings. Welcome back.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Mukhang pera said:


> Indeed I am guilty, guilty, guilty and should be shot for my conspicuous lack of participation in financial discussions. I know not much about most of it....
> 
> 
> So all I have left is some knowledge of the law. That's mostly what I post about. Not very finance-oriented and I only engage in the topic when replying to someone who has raised a legal issue. Not really sure why I do, because I think most of it is unwelcome and gets ignored. For example, a poster _sub nom_ "gocanada" recently posted a query under the thread title "Landlord Living with Tenant - what happens if Landlord passes away?" I took time to write a considered opinion. The OP never returned to the thread. That's a problem endemic to some (by no means all) forums. Members without manners. They cannot be bothered to acknowledge replies. That's part of the reason why I absent myself from cmf from time to time. Also, threads that run for pages and pages with a handful of participants endlessly slagging each other tends to cause me to direct my attention elsewhere. I see some sniping on other forums, but cmf has developed it to a high art. I also bow out now and again because I simply have too many other interests to pursue. To be active on any forum sucks up time. I have a lot of things I enjoy doing that actually rank ahead of tarrying on cmf. Like right now. I should be out hauling in my prawn traps. They have been soaking since last night.
> ...


I am very glad to see you are back. I really appreciated your well researched and thought out legal advice. I also appreciate the gentlemanly tone in which you post. Even when there are others who act like they know more than everyone and post legal advice that is incorrect. The manner in which you response to correct the information is respectful and informative and not pretentious like some insufferable 'know it alls'. Very classy of you.

On a side note, you had posted some very helpful information to me regarding my parents estate information. It took me a while to unravel it, but based on something you said, really helped me go down a path to solve my problem. I went to my original post to provide an update, and then realized that you had taken a break from then forum. I ended up not posting my lengthy update, as it was meant to show my appreciation. Now that I know you are back, I will take the time to update that other thread when I have a chance. 

Please continue with your wealth of legal advice. it has always been factual, informative and helpful. That's the thing here, your advice is very helpful because it is different from what others offer. I can give the same financial information as others, but am not nearly as articulate, nor do I have the patience for wading through the bickering. So I tend to post on safe topics I can respond quickly such as cooking, frugality, and of course my Instant Pot. I believe that if everyone provide information on what they know, then it we don't all have to just talk about finance, etc.

PS> I also find your last post about fishing/harvesting very interesting. I don't know why, but I have strange fascination with little octopus.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> Now that you have answered the question, what tangent/sidelines do you want to suggest that are more interesting and more interesting to who? Me or you?


Maybe you could continue with your own Q and A in this tangential thread? It doesn't seem to resonate with anyone in particular.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Yes, it is a hypothetical question kcowan. Congratulations on reading that correctly. M3s insists it was a rhetorical question. What do I know, I only wrote the sentence.


After the hypothetical question you inferred you already had your answer by adding the "Hello..... anybody home?????" Maybe you could setup an experiment though? How hard would it be for the dirty dozen to refrain for 40 days? Bit late for lent



Mukhang pera said:


> Good morning, cmf.
> 
> I took myself out under a much-needed rain and pulled the 2 prawn traps of which I spoke. A total of 78 keepers (the egg-bearing females must be returned to the ocean, and small ones are not kept). I also released one small octopus that felt more like eating my prawns than catching his (her?) own. And there was one box crab.
> 
> ...


Your unique lifestyle and knowledge would easily make you a celebrity on youtube or instagram. It could also fund the coop and other legal endeavours especially if you can educate people on something so valuable that likely nobody is covering. Youtube and instagram can be monetized for the content contributor, unlike forums where our content viewership is only monetized by the owner's ads (verticleScope owns many of these forums)

Heck some ol' guy with a great beard got so many clicks he ended up monetizing pictures and videos of beard grooming, a niche apparently lacking knowledgable content by the typical demographics of youtube and instagram, many of whom also strive for such great beards. There has been lots of insta/youtube girls making it big with makeup tutorials, but few beards. It doesn't seem to take much before companies start giving you product for exposure etc (guerrilla marketing)

Being unique, knowledgeable and interesting seems to be the keys to insta/youtube success. A lot of this is flying under the radar of a generation. Yet that generation probably holds a lot of the unique knowledge that hasn't already been covered on these platforms


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Now that you have answered the question, what tangent/sidelines do you want to suggest that are more interesting and more interesting to who? Me or you?


The tangents already have developed in the thread. There is no prize for initiating the most threads, nor keeping them on topic. If response is what you desire, try PFC on reddit.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Mukhang pera said:


> ... So where does that leave me?
> 
> I have a handful of stocks put into an RRSP years ago and ignored since ... The RRSP is really a liability to me, since I fell for the advice that it will save tax now and you can take it out when your income drops in retirement and pay less tax ... But for many, me included, my income is now greater than in the past and my forced RRSP (RRIF) withdrawals after age 71 will be taxed hard. So, no, I have nothing to offer there. Except to admit my mistake ...


IMO you are under valuing what you can contribute if admitting the mistake is it. 




Mukhang pera said:


> ... The advice should be that RRSPs are good for people to cannot manage money and who will have low incomes later on ...


Describing RRSPs as good for those who can't manage their money reads to me to be an over simplification like the articles that only talk about the tax refund of using an RRSP contribution now. 

Or maybe it's a projection of your situation and those on CMF who are fortunate enough to not have needed the RRSP but were not fortunate enough to learn that one size does not fit all.


Either way, IMO the part about not being able to manage money is misplaced.




Mukhang pera said:


> ... That really leaves real estate, it would seem, as an investment vehicle worthy of discussion on cmf. What can I say there? I have but one rental property. It's in the US, not even Canada. I have owned it for about 25 years and the general advice here seems to be that US real estate is a bad idea. So not much to contribute there.


I guess your experience and what your thoughts are on US rentals don't count as a contribution then?




Mukhang pera said:


> ... Any benefit from that will redound more to my heirs, not me. That kind of "investment" would no doubt be seen as nuts on cmf.


The threads on charities suggest otherwise ... but unless you decide to post a thread, we won't know for sure.


Personally, I am reading and posting to learn what I can - whether it ends up being useful or trivia. It is a bonus if I receive an acknowledgement and thank you. It does not bother me likely because I see the forum as being the equivalent of a bulletin board at a coffee shop.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> ... I think we simply have to accept common courtesy is a lost quality in the digital chat world and those that respond with their knowledge and wisdom are doing it pro bono, perhaps with the hope it helps some in the silent majority.


I don't know ... if every time something was posted the next message posted was "thanks ... I'll have to think about it", wouldn't that get rather repetitious/boring?


Cheers


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

m3s said:


> Your unique lifestyle and knowledge would easily make you a celebrity on youtube or instagram. It could also fund the coop and other legal endeavours especially if you can educate people on something so valuable that likely nobody is covering. Youtube and instagram can be monetized for the content contributor, unlike forums where our content viewership is only monetized by the owner's ads (verticleScope owns many of these forums)
> 
> Being unique, knowledgeable and interesting seems to be the keys to insta/youtube success. A lot of this is flying under the radar of a generation. Yet that generation probably holds a lot of the unique knowledge that hasn't already been covered on these platforms


Interesting comment there m3s. I thought of quipping in my post that maybe I should consider making a youtube video on "How to restore your cooperative". I must say I have been pleasantly surprised by what can be found on youtube.

Awhile ago I had a leaking fuel injector on a Kubota 7.5 kw diesel generator. How to fix it? No diesel mechanics anywhere near us. A bit of time spent on youtube turned up a video showing exactly what to do. Bought the necessary parts from a Kubota dealer in Courtenay when making a Costco run anyway. More recently, I had to deal with a travel trailer with a leaking hot water heater. My first thought was to replace the unit. Not cheap and a fair amount of work. But then, youtube to the rescue. I could hardly believe it when I came across a video showing exactly the same water heater, leaking in exactly the same fashion and showing how to effect a long-term fix for an easily-installed $2 part, available at any hardware/plumbing store.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Mukhang pera said:


> Awhile ago I had a leaking fuel injector on a Kubota 7.5 kw diesel generator. How to fix it? No diesel mechanics anywhere near us. A bit of time spent on youtube turned up a video showing exactly what to do. Bought the necessary parts from a Kubota dealer in Courtenay when making a Costco run anyway. More recently, I had to deal with a travel trailer with a leaking hot water heater. My first thought was to replace the unit. Not cheap and a fair amount of work. But then, youtube to the rescue. I could hardly believe it when I came across a video showing exactly the same water heater, leaking in exactly the same fashion and showing how to effect a long-term fix for an easily-installed $2 part, available at any hardware/plumbing store.


Totally my experience also. I've fixed more things than I can count by using YouTube videos. You can usually find your exact situation. I'm always joking in my head that if someone needed brain surgery - no problem, I can become an expert on YouTube and we'll fix you right up.

ltr


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Yes, I find it amazing ltr that so many think to make and post videos about the most obscure sort of tasks. It would never occur to me to get out a camera and record such stuff. But I am grateful indeed to those who do.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Mukhang pera said:


> Yes, I find it amazing ltr that so many think to make and post videos about the most obscure sort of tasks. It would never occur to me to get out a camera and record such stuff. But I am grateful indeed to those who do.


I know - right! I've had some pretty obscure things I wanted to fix and thought it was going to be real tough to figure out, and then I go to YouTube and there's the exact model number and situation I'm trying to solve. And not one person, but multiple people have videos on the same thing. 

I just don't get it. And it ain't professional either. Usually someone's daughter will walk in and ask where her doll is or the cat will bang against the camera, but you still get your information. Why do people post these things is beyond me..

ltr


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> I think we simply have to accept common courtesy is a lost quality in the digital chat world and those that respond with their knowledge and wisdom are doing it pro bono, perhaps with the hope it helps some in the silent majority. Consider your niche as 'giving back' and if providing legal input is all that you wish to do, then I'd say that is enough unto itself.


You should see the money people are making on youtube livestreams, patreon and twitch. I watched a bit of a obscure youtube livestream of someone just playing a simulation game and people were donating $1-25 non stop.. adds up fast! On Patreon people will have thousands of followers commit $$ per video for whatever obscure video. On instagram content creators call themselves influencers and tap into marketing funds just by using products and getting views/clicks. It's us on the forums who are suckers making ad revenue for someone else. On reddit at least you get some "karma" from upvotes, thanking with short comments is discouraged there as it adds a lot of noise


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

like_to_retire said:


> I just don't get it. And it ain't professional either. Usually someone's daughter will walk in and ask where her doll is or the cat will bang against the camera, but you still get your information. Why do people post these things is beyond me..
> 
> ltr


That made me laugh out loud! The non-professional comment! So true. 

I just remembered one I looked at not long ago was how to replace and install a "shark bite" ball valve. Again, I had no clue how to take out the old one that had popped from freezing. So I go on youtube and I find some guy using his cell phone to record a 2-minute video showing how to take out the old one, without needing the "special tool" he said the plumbing store will want to sell you, and then how in install the new valve. All the while he is making side comments about trying to place the camera to get the shot, without dropping it down inside the wall where the pipe he was working on was located. You can see the camera moving around and capturing different images as he tries to get it in position. If I were to make such a video, I think I'd feel constrained to do a "rehearsal" and present a polished version. But not so for most who post this stuff. As you say, the kid walking in or the cat messing up the shot is all part of it.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Mukhang pera said:


> Awhile ago I had a leaking fuel injector on a Kubota 7.5 kw diesel generator. How to fix it? No diesel mechanics anywhere near us. A bit of time spent on youtube turned up a video showing exactly what to do. Bought the necessary parts from a Kubota dealer in Courtenay when making a Costco run anyway.


I once found a video to fix the transmission of a brand new motorbike with a hammer and vise. I was several countries away from a dealership to get it fixed under warranty, and who knows how long it would take to get the parts. I pretty much can maintain my vehicles/house thanks to these youtube videos

You could probably make a decent youtube series just going about your seemingly off grid self sustainable lifestyle. Maybe throw in some legal discussion while emptying the prawn trap etc just to add another obscure dimension to it all. Cable tv can't hold a candle to something like that


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

m3s said:


> I once found a video to fix the transmission of a brand new motorbike with a hammer and vise. I was several countries away from a dealership to get it fixed under warranty, and who knows how long it would take to get the parts. I pretty much can maintain my vehicles/house thanks to these youtube videos
> 
> You could probably make a decent youtube series just going about your seemingly off grid self sustainable lifestyle. Maybe throw in some legal discussion while emptying the prawn trap etc just to add another obscure dimension to it all. Cable tv can't hold a candle to something like that


OK MP. If you do it, my friend will help you. He built a huge cottage with hot tub, old cast iron stove etc...all off grid w/o road access.


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