# honor killings on the rise not just in Canada



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

The US is starting to see it's share of female child abuse and honor killings..

PHOENIX (Reuters) - An Iraqi woman has been arrested in Arizona accused of beating her daughter and padlocking her to a bed in outrage after she spoke to a male student at school in violation of the family's traditional values, police said on Friday.

Farhan told police she hit her daughter because she "was speaking to a male subject and her Iraq culture states a female is not allowed to be having contact with males because females are not allowed to have boyfriends," court records said.

The arrest follows another high-profile case involving an Iraqi immigrant. Last April, an Arizona judge sentenced Faleh Hassan Almaleki *to 34-1/2 years in prison for murdering his daughter in what was described as an "honor killing*."

*Almaleki struck and killed his 20-year-old daughter Noor with his vehicle *in a Phoenix valley parking lot in 2009 for becoming too Westernized and violating what he said were Iraqi and Muslim values. *He also injured her boyfriend's mother before fleeing the scene.*

Hmmm..does anybody see a pattern emerging here?


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

I doubt that they are on the rise globally. We are just seeing more cases occurring in the West due to immigration. But I take your point about the pattern.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

carverman said:


> Hmmm..does anybody see a pattern emerging here?


Yes.

And it is a serious mental issue that needs to be addressed.

Humans are animals. Telling a female she can't talk to a male is like slapping science and evolution across the face. It's gonna happen. Fact of life.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

This is an anecdote not a statistic.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

*What* is an anecdote, Andrew? Every time the subject of Muslim extremists and their attitude towards women and girls comes up you seem to make excuses for them - sometimes I wonder if you share their views.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> This is an anecdote not a statistic.


Anecdotal or fact? It is happening here as Muslims are allowed to immigrate.
While customs from other lands enrich our Canadian fabric..unfortunately
customs and lifestyles of the middle east cultures can create more problems for
us. Honor killings may be a "way of life" in a backward formerly nomadic culture
where women were just possessions of the men to serve them.

This mindset is not going to be completely eliminated in these cultures as the
fear of honor killings can remain for many generations...The Shafia example
is one we know where the father influenced the son to do the dirty deeds.
The son being the second alpha male next to the father did his bidding, even
if it was to kill his mother and sisters.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

You claim the rate of honour killings in the West is rising and provide a single example as evidence. It is an anecdote, not an overall statistic. It's like me saying that the rate of home fires is rising because my neighbour's house burned down. Non sequitur. This is not excusing big bad Muslims for committing murder, it is a matter of fact. I'll go on the record as being anti-murder. Forgive me for not holding Muslim murderers to a different standard than Christian murderers.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

@andrewf: I don't get how you can be so ignorant about the rate of media reports of honour killings. It's clearly on the rise !! It's the number one national issue (until the news cycle pass or something more exciting comes along *hey!! something shiney !!*)


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## LondonHomes (Dec 29, 2010)

Either way, these types of stories make me sick.

However, as a society people need to be aware of them and say that this is not acceptable here.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> You claim the rate of honour killings in the West is rising and provide a single example as evidence. It is an anecdote, not an overall statistic.


This is a public forum Andrew and you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that...however..in the last 20 years since we started letting these Muslim religion people into Canada (and the US), there has been many incidents of
"honor killings"..not just Kingston ..but a few in Toronto where there is a much larger population. 

The difference here... and it's hard to put them all into one catagory (honor killings) is that most of the murders are cleverly disguised as an accident. In Toronto, in the past two or three years, there have been cases of a Muslim woman "falling" to
her death onto the 401 from the overpasses on the 401 and other expressways.

It is done at night so that nobody can witness whether the woman actually jumped, was pushed deliberately (or thrown) off the overpass to her death... or dead already and tossed over. They (the men) are good at it..and in most cases they can disguise
the killing as a suicide..because the woman never survives the fall..so it is probable that she was suffocated first, because that is the easiest thing for them to do, then dispose of her body to look like a sucide and we know from the Shafia case
what a bunch of pathological liers they can be. 

A few years ago, they were trying in Toronto to get Ontario to recognize Sharia law (Muslim law) on the pretext because they are Muslim, that is the only law that they think is applicable to them...not our Canadian laws.

Thankfully, our attorney general and lawmakers saw through that ploy and refused to adopt or sanction their Sharia law, which would given them "carte blanche" that they can just go ahead and kill female family members that displeased
them without having to assume any responsibilty.

So going back to my original comment, I feel that "honor killings"..even if it carries a life sentence if caught..is on the RISE in NA.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't think we are in any danger of allowing a version of Sharia law where honour killings would be permitted. I'm opposed to any religious law, not just Islamic law.

You claim that men are pushing their wives off of highway overpasses left right and centre. Any evidence? Or just a newspaper headline or two? Muslims don't have a monopoly on murdering family members. I am just detecting racism and prejudice disguised as outrage over what 'the moslems' to their women. I don't like it either, but what is your proposed solution? Excluding muslims from immigration to Canada? Do you think they would be better protected from such honour killings back in Pakistan, etc.?


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

slacker said:


> @andrewf: I don't get how you can be so ignorant about the rate of media reports of honour killings. It's clearly on the rise !! It's the number one national issue (until the news cycle pass or something more exciting comes along *hey!! something shiney !!*)


Those who dare talk about these crimes are nothing more than racists, didn't you know? 

At least, that is what I have been accused of here by the above mentioned, who told me: *"You seem to elevate this to a crime against humanity because the guy was muslim or because the victims were women. I'm detecting hints of racism, xenophobia and religious intolerance which I find unsavoury."* 

But who can be surprised, as after all, there are plenty of uninformed people, who refuse to acknowledge their naiveté, but worst of all, there are apologists for everything in this world, and that is what is indeed 'unsavoury' IMHO. 

It is not only a fact that such crimes are increasing all over the world, but there are other crimes committed every day by family members in the name of honour & it is honour crimes that this topic is about, so if someone wants to talk about "BC polygamists", they should open a separate thread. 

Pre-meditated murder plots of women and young girls by family members, for "betraying/disrespecting/offending/violating" Islamic [and other] culture/tradition/religion and the patriarchal order [by their own words], is the worst of all, but let us not forget: child marriages, forced marriages [not necessarily same as arranged marriage]; female mutilation; stoning to death; suicides as well as forced suicides, etc.

It does not matter what % of Muslims & non-Muslims are law-abiding citizens, what matters are the victims.

The discussion is not about criticizing a religion nor about anti-immigration, but about awareness. As the Shafia judge said: “It is difficult to conceive of a more despicable, more heinous crime. The apparent reason behind these cold-blooded, shameful murders was that the four completely innocent victims offended your completely twisted concept of honour, a notion of honour that is founded upon the domination and control of women.”

http://ikwro.org.uk/2011/12/03/nearly-3000-cases-of-honour-violence-every-year-in-the-uk/

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/08/world/asia/08burn.html?pagewanted=all

Is video below legitimate? I don't know, but we all know that these executions still take place in many countries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nuCETPrGtY&feature=related

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/World/20111225/ian-stoning-adultry/


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Sensationalism is at the heart of journalism these days, because people are attracted to it, readership goes up and advertising is easier to sell.

I agree with Andrew, that without unbiased statistical evidence, these stories are sad............but not indicative of a trend.

Murder is murder......and to focus on the reasons for it leads down the path of degrees of justification.

Is the murder of a drug dealer less onerous than the murder of a store clerk?

By labelling these particular crimes as "honour killings" implies there is some honour that was avenged by the murder.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

I have no patience with the attitude that all murders are equally horrific. Of course all murders are wrong, but do you honestly believe that it's just as evil for a gang member to kill his fellow gangster in a fight over the profits from their illegal drug dealing as it is for a young innocent woman to be killed by her family for offending their "honour"?


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

sags said:


> without unbiased statistical evidence, these stories are sad....


What is stopping you from finding above evidence on your own? There is plenty, but you'll find only if you care to be informed.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

there was nothing whatsoever about the reportage of the kingston locks story that has even hinted at sensationalism. 

as journalists often are when covering horrific stories - tragic 9/11 stories that are lightyears outside normal experience - the journalists working on kingston were muted & dignified. Nobody exaggerated. Nobody wrote or spoke even as much as a wrongfully nuanced word.

the judge said what he said in solemn truth. His words rolled like a biblical dirge. The journalists reported his speech. There was no sensationalism anywhere.

with respect to worldwide increase in so-called "honour" violence including honour killings, social agencies working with women across the vast middle east report that this is on the rise. At the same time we have far more advanced & sensitive communication systems than we had even 10 years ago. So i for one am not sure whether statistics are truly increasing or whether reporting is better or whether it's a question of both.

two things are for sure. Honour killings are not decreasing. Honour killings are taking place in canada.

i would like to add that i find the voyeuristic presence of some males in this thread to be very close to violence itself. This is a solemn & horrifying subject. To turn it into loud raucous babble from some individual who thinks he's the greatest broadcast gift to canada since knowlton nash is near-sacrilege imho.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Karen said:


> Of course all murders are wrong, but do you honestly believe that it's just as evil for a gang member to kill his fellow gangster in a fight over the profits from their illegal drug dealing as it is for a young innocent woman to be killed by her family for offending their "honour"?


So it's more "more evil" to kill for honour in Canada/USA and you want something more done to prevent it? However, it seems to be much less important to prevent honour killings in another country? Or should we do something about those as well? What about killing/displacing people in other countries to grow our own industrial economy, to sustain our consumer culture? It is ok to kill people on a much larger scale if it benefits ourselves and culture, and it's not on "our soil"?

If you "honour kill" someone, you go to jail just like if you killed a fellow "gangsta". They have no special immunity from our law do they? If you actually want to assimilate the world a la Nazi, maybe you should look at our own culture first.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

No, Mode, I do not believe that "honour killings" are worse in North America than they are in other countries. However, we do not control what happens in other countries; we do have some influence over what happens in Canada. We cannot be responsible for the evils of the whole world, but we do have some responsibility for protecting the rights of people (in this case, females) who are admitted to Canada.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Karen said:


> I have no patience with the attitude that all murders are equally horrific. Of course all murders are wrong, but do you honestly believe that it's just as evil for a gang member to kill his fellow gangster in a fight over the profits from their illegal drug dealing as it is for a young innocent woman to be killed by her family for offending their "honour"?


In other words, some human life is worth less than others?


I agree with sags in that framing these crimes in the perpetrator's preferred term as an 'honour killing' is perpetuating the idea that honour can be redeemed through murder.

Finally, I've asked it before, but I'll do so again: what do you want done about it? Are you outraged for the sake of outrage? Or do you want action to be taken, such as banning muslim immigration? A public education campaign along the lines of 'don't kill your wife or daughter'?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> two things are for sure. Honour killings are not decreasing. Honour killings are taking place in canada.


I have only seen evidence to support the second statement. The first is conjecture. I suspect you are correct, but that is not evidence, it is gut feel.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> 1. there was nothing whatsoever about the reportage of the kingston locks story that has even hinted at sensationalism.
> 
> 2. i would like to add that i find the voyeuristic presence of some males in this thread to be very close to violence itself. This is a solemn & horrifying subject. To turn it into loud raucous babble from some individual who thinks he's the greatest broadcast gift to canada since knowlton nash is near-sacrilege imho.


1. Of course there was not.

2. I could not agree more and these individuals have made zero contributions to these discussions [same under the Shafia thread]; they simply enter the discussion to pick on females it seems; first it was me, now it is Karen. Pathetic.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> Sensationalism is at the heart of journalism these days, because people are attracted to it, readership goes up and advertising is easier to sell.


so be it..and we can ignore what's going on in NA and become oblivious by choosing to ignore it. 

I'm just stating my point of view for what it is. I'm not sure that that can be misconstrued as racist, all I'm trying to do is raise a point that there seems to be more incidents in recent years in NA. 



> I agree with Andrew, that without unbiased statistical evidence, these stories are sad............but not indicative of a trend.


What kind of statistical evidence are you talking about? Somebody setting up a national or international data base of all the honor killings that take place each year per region/capita or country? All murders handled by due process of the
law are recorded the same way..in the courts and by the media.
Nobody is going to start a data base on the internet to keep track of them!



> Murder is murder......and to focus on the reasons for it leads down the path of degrees of justification.
> Is the murder of a drug dealer less onerous than the murder of a store clerk?


You are deviating from the topic here my fine forum friend. I am discussing honour killings not revenge or robbery killings which happen all the time.
Honour killings are slanted towards one part of society on purpose and for selfish and totally insane reasoning by men against women and girls.



> By labelling these particular crimes as "honour killings" implies there is some honour that was avenged by the murder.


This doesn't even deserve a rebuttal.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

*statistics*

a quick google search shows honour killings on the increase in every country including england.

here's the ny times-affiliated Express Tribune of pakistan in a december 2011 story reporting honour killings in pakistan for the 9 months january through september of last year.

killings to date were 675, a pakistan human rights commission spokesman told agence france-presse. Figures for the full year 2011 will be released later this february, he added.

" The Commission reported 791 honour killings in 2010 and there was no discernible decrease this year," the PHRC official said.

other pakistani sources placed 2010 honour killings at 557, meaning that the 2011 figure had increased sharply.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/309279/675-honour-killing-victims-in-pakistan-hrcp/


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> Pre-meditated murder plots of women and young girls by family members, for "betraying/disrespecting/offending/violating" Islamic [and other] culture/tradition/religion and the patriarchal order [by their own words], is the worst of all, but let us not forget: child marriages, forced marriages [not necessarily same as arranged marriage]; female mutilation; stoning to death; suicides as well as forced suicides, etc.
> 
> It does not matter what % of Muslims & non-Muslims are law-abiding citizens, what matters are the victims.
> 
> ...



To me, this (video) is nothing but pre-meditated murder. The translated expression of the man casting the first stone..
"God help me" is a desperate cry for forgiveness in his participation of the murder of a helpless woman that
cannot defend herself. 
How cruel, how barbaric and what kind of religion that allows this yet does not allow compassion, and takes violence in its own hands to justify the very reason for it's existence!

This type of behaviour at least can't be "imported" into our country, because they couldn't hide the fact that this is nothing but (sanctioned by their religion), pre-meditated murder. 

In NA, they use devious ways here by staging their killing as an "accident", hoping they might be lucky enough to get away with it if they can continue to lie without tripping themselves up..but at least here we have technology on our side, so it's not so easy for them to hide it.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

> Finally, I've asked it before, but I'll do so again: what do you want done about it? Are you outraged for the sake of outrage? Or do you want action to be taken, such as banning muslim immigration? A public education campaign along the lines of 'don't kill your wife or daughter'?


I have answered your question in the Shafia thread - many times. I most certainly do not want to ban Muslim immigration because that would be unfair to the many decent Muslims who make valuable contriutions to our society. However, I do think that immigration officials should take extra care in assessing potential immigrants from countries where these kinds of despicable crimes are common and are condoned by the courts and other government agencies. I fully realize the fact that this will not prevent the admittance of many, if not most, of these evil people, but if even a few are ruled out as immigrants, it is better than nothing.

Note also that extremist Muslims are not the only group that practices these kinds of evil against females. We have had similar cases in B.C. involving another religion and I do not advocate banning that whole group from Canada either as most of them are good citizens.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> http://tribune.com.pk/story/309279/675-honour-killing-victims-in-pakistan-hrcp/


But are you sure hp, that the above information is 'unbiased'. 

The increase in crimes against women/children in the name of 'honour' is obvious to whoever wants to spend enough time doing a little research & read about more than just sports and stocks.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

The only thing evil needs to prevail, is for good men to do nothing.

I think to.gal and Karen get it, but some of these other people in here need to ask themselves if they're part of the problem or the solution.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

t.gal it was a quick google search.

i'd assumed the imprimatur of the pakistan human rights commission has merit. Agence france-presse are good reporters.

because otherwise i'd have to take apart the history & political makeup of the PHRC & i cannot possibly do that !


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

What's the solution, then, TRM?

Karen, if we screen out the men who are susceptible to the idea of murdering their family, what becomes of their family? They are prevented from coming to Canada. In Canada they are likelier to have access to a justice system that will protect their interests--we don't have Sharia law here after all. I don't know if that is the answer. I don't think this is a simple problem, and I don't think that being vocally angry about it fixes anything. A good start would be to examine the public safety system and whether it does enough to protect women and children who are threatened by the men in their life. The stories that I hear suggests that it fails too often. 

HP, your rhetoric is very disappointing. Challenging points is not 'close to violence'. I'm not going to be bullied into self-censorship, by you or anyone.

For what it's worth, I checked the wikipedia page on honour killing for Canada. There is a mention of a study on how this cultural norm is transmitted to Canada, and how many of perpetrators are mentally ill (which certainly makes sense to me). Three separate sets of convictions are mentioned. I didn't see any reference to statistics for Canada.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

> Karen, if we screen out the men who are susceptible to the idea of murdering their family, what becomes of their family? They are prevented from coming to Canada. In Canada they are likelier to have access to a justice system that will protect their interests--we don't have Sharia law here after all.


Andrew, it sounds as if you think we should admit every family in the world where the women are at risk of being harmed by their men iinto Canada. A lofty goal, perhaps, but completely impractical, and one that surely even you would not support.

The fact that there isn't Sharia law in Canada didn't save the Shafia family, did it?


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## Sasquatch (Jan 28, 2012)

Interesting thread 

Here are a few thoughts from an Immigrant, who has lived in this great country of ours for the past 45 years and counting.

When I immigrated to Canada, I expected and hoped to find things to be different from my home country. This is really a no brainer because if I didn't like change and experiencing a new culture, why would I leave home.

Taking this a bit further, I am at a loss to explain why people want to come here and bring all their "old country baggage" with them into their newly adopted home land.

If they don't want to adapt to a new way of life, why are they coming here ?
They would do us and themselves a big favour by staying where they are !!!

IMO this is a systemic problem with accepting immigrants into any country, not just Canada. 

Again, I have to say that I cannot now and will never understand the mind set of these folks who come here with the expectation of every custom and rule to be carried over from their old country.

I was willing and eager to learn my new country's customs and rules and I adapted very quickly to our Canadian way of life, because I wanted to, because that's why I came here. 

I also decided to take some post secondary training in the new to me language to have better employment opportunities in my new home.

It goes without saying that I carried over some of my home country's customs into my private life, like Christmas traditions, special foods etc., which have no negative impact on anybody.

As to a solution to "honour killing" and similiar scourges, there certainly is no easy answer.

Stricter immigration rules would be a step in the right direction , for example, you have to know one of our official languages, before you're even considered for immigration.

As to profiling certain groups of people, if it will significantly reduce the danger of terrorism and/or murders and killings, I'd have no great difficulty to accept it, although it wouldn't be my first choice. 

This may schock a lot of people but , as a new/old Canadian, that's how I feel


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

I agree with every single word you've written, Sasquatch. You are exactly the kind of immigrant Canada needs. I think immigrants with your attitudes were more the norm at the time you came here, but there seem to be more immigrants in recent times who come here to better themselves financially but expect us to adapt to their cultures. I was absolutely appalled a few years ago that the Ontario government even gave a moment's consideration to the question of allowing limited use of Sharia law in this country.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Sasquatch said:


> This may schock a lot of people but , as a new/old Canadian, that's how I feel


Unfortunately, I believe that you're correct, that many are shocked by common-sense. But you did not shock me. 

Great post!

I agree with you too Karen!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Karen said:


> Andrew, it sounds as if you think we should admit every family in the world where the women are at risk of being harmed by their men iinto Canada. A lofty goal, perhaps, but completely impractical, and one that surely even you would not support.
> 
> The fact that there isn't Sharia law in Canada didn't save the Shafia family, did it?


No, it didn't. But if what the murder had occurred in Afghanistan, Mohammad Shafia may have faced no legal penalty for the murder. It is also likely that the victims could have received no support or protection from the state. No, I don't think we could allow everyone who wanted to come to Canada to do so. But just because we can't take everyone does not mean we should not take any. Otherwise, we should shut down our refugee program.

I went to school with families from Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran. It bothers me when I hear blanket attacks on these cultures. They are good people, and tarring them along with the murderous psychopaths that kill their own families is outrageous to me. So to the people in this thread who are brandishing their own righteous indignation, perhaps consider the implications of what you say.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> I went to school with families from Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran. It bothers me when I hear blanket attacks on these cultures. They are good people, and tarring them along with the murderous psychopaths that kill their own families is outrageous to me. S*o to the people in this thread who are brandishing their own righteous indignation, perhaps consider the implications of what you say.*


Shafia didn't come to this country as a refugee. He was already a wealthy business man in Dubai..where he "allegedly" owned a car dealership.
He also appeared to be fluent in French, Canada's second language, so that was not an issue to his coming here either. 
Now whether he was already a psychopath that turned the second wife and son against his daughters is beyond the scope
of this discussion..but don't take this personally.

People that come to Canada to start a new life and prosper, should do so, and adopt their new country, not bring their "nasty cultural baggage" with them. 

My forefathers came to this country in the first wave of immigration before the second world war.
They helped to build the west as farmers and labourers. My dad worked to build the CNR railroad in 1947,
2 years after WWII and then bought a farm with the money. I immigrated to this country in 1948 (along with other
refugees of WWII). I managed to adapt to the Canadian way of life, school system, learned english and have built a life where I contributed in my own way to this country. 
I didn't go around killing members of my family just because they wanted to be different from me. 
I also believe that everyone is equal under the law but what I see now with the latest wave of immigrants
disturbs me ...because what I read in the news, is not good for Canada..IMO.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Andrew, you're putting words into my mouth that I neither said nor meant. At no time did I ever say that we should not admit immigrants from Muslim countries. But I do feel very strongly that we should screen them more carefully than we do those from other countries, and I have no apologies to make for feeling that way.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Sasquatch said:


> Interesting thread
> Stricter immigration rules would be a step in the right direction , for example, you have to know one of our official languages, before you're even considered for immigration.


Canada has always had lax immigration rules..and at least until recently, with the except of some WWII Nazi's that were discovered only years after they immigrated, obtained citizenship and were in their 70s, was their true identity discovered. 

Once their true indentity was discovered (that they covered up during immigration) that they had connections to their ugly past, (and witnesses and concentration camp victims who managed to survive and testify in court against them
for their crimes), they were stripped of their citizenship and deported.

Also those that claimed that the Holocast never happened. One native leader who had actually obtained the Order
of Canada uttered disparaging and racist remarks against people that had done nothing to him at a public meeting.
He was stripped of his medal . 

However, in the case of Shafia, and some of the other more recent immigrants from Afghanistan like Khadr, it is very difficult to find out what their past is or was, because there are no witnesses coming forward to uncover what they were up to
there, and what crime(s) in the past they were responsible for over there. If murdering family members (female mostly) was tolerated in this backward society, they got away with it and with no criminal recording system there, they
could sneak into this country and carry on as if they were still living over there, under the pretext of their religion.

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms grants us freedom from persecution because of our religion . W
We have a former prime minister and the Queen of Canada in right, HRH Elizabeth II, to thank for that.

That is a privilege and a right we enjoy as immigrants and citizens of this country and it should not be abused by individuals who come here to start new lives by imposing their religious laws on the rest of Canada, or even those that
immigrate with them.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Karen said:


> Andrew, you're putting words into my mouth that I neither said nor meant. At no time did I ever say that we should not admit immigrants from Muslim countries. But I do feel very strongly that we should screen them more carefully than we do those from other countries, and I have no apologies to make for feeling that way.


Karen, based on what has happened and what may happen in the future,
public opinion will eventually result in more selective screening of immigrants
from certain countries. This is already happening in the US..primarily because
of 9/11 but also because Americans may not be as tolerant of those that
immigrate and start causing trouble.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

re screening immigrant applicants, there are different screening procedures for regular applicants vs wealthy applicants. The Shafia clan was in the wealthy applicant category.

the nat post's christie blatchford, who was & no doubt remains the dean of journalists working on the kingston locks story, has suggested that immigration authorities review & toughen up the wealthy investor category.

it seems astonishing, but the amount required to buy landed immigrant status in canada is only 1.6 million dollars. This has recently been raised from much lower levels. The Shafia clan were admitted in 2007, under the lower levels.

quebec & federal canada both now require the 1.6M, although until recently quebec's minimum was significantly lower. This resulted in scams whereby immigrants applied to & were accepted by quebec as wealthy investors, then they never bothered to land in quebec but instead set their first foot as new landed immigrants in toronto.

it seems amazing to me that within days of the kingston locks deaths, journalists had dug up the famous photograph of Rona the 1st wife at her wedding in Kabul. Yet immigration officers both quebec & federal never suspected a thing ...

the sense i get is that the wealthy immigrant category is wide open. It's not a back door into canada, it's a broad front avenue up which many undesireables can drive.

plus, as i've posted before, i doubt that father shafia ever declared his real wealth from his dubai businesses to either the immigration or to the revenue authorities.

wealthy businessmen are stashing their wives & children, especially in quebec, in order to obtain the super-generous all-cash quebec child tax benefits. To take advantage of free eduation in schools plus world-class but cheap university education for quebec residents. Free medical care with access in the big cities to medics at world-famous university hospitals. Big inventory in quebec of reasonably-priced housing stock.

they declare only enough money to gain entry, meanwhile keeping the rest of the assets concealed offshore.

these are well-known immigration & tax scams in quebec. From time to time, rings of "immigration counsellors" supporting fraudulent immigration applicants get busted.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> re screening immigrant applicants, there are different screening procedures for regular applicants vs wealthy applicants. The Shafia clan was in the wealthy applicant category.
> 
> wealthy businessmen are stashing their wives & children, especially in quebec, in order to obtain the super-generous all-cash quebec child tax benefits. To take advantage of free eduation in schools plus world-class but cheap university education for quebec residents. Free medical care with access in the big cities to medics at world-famous university hospitals. Big inventory in quebec of reasonably-priced housing stock.


I'm not denying that this is perhaps the greatest attraction of these middle east immigrants to Canada..after all, if things were so good for them in Afghanistan or Dubai for that matter, why would they even think of coming to a land and cultures so foreign to them?



> they declare only enough money to gain entry, meanwhile keeping the rest of the assets concealed offshore.


While living in Montreal, Shafia travelled to Dubai.. and who knows where from there on "business". Who was minding the business in Montreal? 

Obviously he didn't come over here to start a new life..so there had to be another reason. 

Khadr (senior) that worked at Bell-Northern Research in the mid eighties came over here for other reasons as well. 
In the end, he was tied into al-Queda as a money launderer/fund raiser and in the 90s moved back to Pakistan to run a "moslem charity" in order to funnel funds to further their cause. 

The 9/11 plan didn't happen on a shoe string, it took a lot of money gathered from North America. So did the other bombings in other countries. Until authorities here started to crack down on them here more vigorously after 9/11, they had free reign to do as they pleased.



> these are well-known immigration & tax scams in quebec. From time to time, rings of "immigration counsellors" supporting fraudulent immigration applicants get busted.


Not surprised..given enough money, you can convince any unscrupulous "officials" to pull strings for you if they know their ways around the laws.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Karen said:


> Andrew, you're putting words into my mouth that I neither said nor meant. At no time did I ever say that we should not admit immigrants from Muslim countries. But I do feel very strongly that we should screen them more carefully than we do those from other countries, and I have no apologies to make for feeling that way.


I don't know how you screen them, though. Ask them? Psychological screening? I'm not attacking you, I'm just poking at your argument to see where it leads. You are entitled to your opinion. I won't accuse you of committing near-violence on me by disagreeing.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

All I say is that all these media reports about honour killings by muslims are making me morally superior as a Canadian.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

one thing at a time is often a good way to go forward.

so right now the thing would be to question what, exactly, are screening procedures for wealthy immigrant applicants. 

how do these differ from screening procedures for regular applicants.

in fact are there any screening procedures at all for wealthy applicants. Or do they just flash their dollars & drive on in.

how come the journos found Rona's wedding picture within days of kingston locks, although immigration had let her in as a cousin.

not that it matters, but my view on outrage is that it's normal to be outraged over honour killings in canada. Repulsed is normal. Appalled is normal. Calling for change is normal.

to yawn over honour killing reports as just another anecdote is not exactly normal imho.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> one thing at a time is often a good way to go forward.
> 
> so right now the thing would be to question what, exactly, are screening procedures for wealthy immigrant applicants.


Even if they had better screening practices, chances are that some criminals or less desirable persons could find their way in..all they have to do is come up with a false identity and false paperwork and tell the immigration authorities they are being persecuted in their country.
We Canadians as "soft hearts" will let them in. Immigration lawyers that "fudge" the paperwork required (for a price) also play a part in the process.

In Arab countries, there isn't the paper trail that we have over here..or in a war torn country. 

I remember my mother telling us stories (when we were kids) about the Allied refugee processing commissions. 
"Name please!" ...if they couldn't spell a complicated Eastern European name. they just put down what they thought was correct, passed the application on to the medical testing authorities, and if they passed the medical, screen them
for emigration to Allied (occupation sector) countries based on what the countries were looking for. 
After WWII, Germany was split in half with the Soviets (Stalin) taking half the country and half of Berlin.
West Germany as it was known then (before unification) was controlled by the Allies (Britain, France and the US).
So depending which sector the refugee camp was, you would get processed by the appropriate allied refugee commission.

My dad was a labourer in the German factories (not slave labour but pretty close), my mom was a farm worker
caught up in the war. Canada, after the war needed labourers to build sections of track on the CNR in Northern
Ontario..so that's how he got into Canada. My mom being his spouse, was brought in afterwards..similar to Rona. 



> in fact are there any screening procedures at all for wealthy applicants. Or do they just flash their dollars & drive on in.


I do think that there is a difference from applicants that have certain skills or business acumen VS the general population refugee. If the wealthy business man has the wherewithal, and can pull a few strings with an immigration lawyer to open a business here (ie: foreign investment) then they are put on the fast track part of the system with far less checking
into their background...so other than any obvious and traceable criminal activity that they can find on them..(and in third world countries, you can't just contact INTERPOL and run a background check on these.), they manage to get in.
Most don't even file income taxes.



> how come the journos found Rona's wedding picture within days of kingston locks, although immigration had let her in as a cousin.


That could be from their family coming forward when contacted by the journalists. From what I saw on the 5th estate
expose on "House of Shafia"...Rona had a sister in the US that she had contacted several times to get her out anyway
she could out of Shafia's absolute control of her. That picture could have come from her..or the uncle of the deceased
children that testified in court (apparently) against Shafia. Family photos are not always available to the immigration
authorities here and immigration lawyers can pull strings ..for a price. The CBC expose also mentioned that Shafia
had contacted the same immigration lawyer he used to bring Rona over as his "cousin" and offered 10 grand to the
immigration lawyers to file the papers to deport her after she refused to be his house slave and jump when Tooba
said jump and take his constant beatings of her. They wanted to dominate her in Canada the same way as
(probably) in Afghanistan. Rona also mentioned that she feared for her life going back to Afghan as she had information
relayed to her that Shafia wanted to have her "disposed of". 



> not that it matters, but my view on outrage is that it's normal to be outraged over honour killings in canada. Repulsed is normal. Appalled is normal. Calling for change is normal.
> to yawn over honour killing reports as just another anecdote is not exactly normal imho.


It's a type of criminal behaviour that we are not used to here in the west. Sure there are lots of murders, people going
insane and killing family members in a rage or mentally unstable..like the guy recently arrested in Quebec that killed
his (mother in law?) and two small little girls...and it's shocking to hear about these kinds of killings, but the
honor killing mindset on the rise is something we are definitely not used to hearing about in this country...at
least until June 2009 at the Kingston Locks.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> to yawn over honour killing reports as just another anecdote is not exactly normal imho.


To say something is an anecdote does not trivialize it. The murders committed by Robert Pickton were an anecdote and not evidence of an explosion in serial murder in Canada. And why do the dozens of women murdered by Pickton not justify much larger outrage than the murder of four women by Shafia? Because they were largely Natives? Or prostitutes? Or are nice young girls the only people worthy of our sympathy, unlike the garbage of our society on the streets of the Lower East Side of Vancouver.

I can't believe the passive aggressive implication that I somehow condone or am not outraged by multiple murder of family. All because your outrage is worn on your sleeve and I'm not tearing my shirt and wailing (fat lot of good that does). 

Yes teams of journalists (trained researchers) found evidence about the Shafias that would have been relevant to their immigration application over the course of days and weeks. I'm not sure it's practical to expend that kind of effort on every applicant. To demand that is to de facto close the border to new Canadians, so long would the backlog grow.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

carverman said:


> It's a type of criminal behaviour that we are not used to here in the west. Sure there are lots of murders, people going
> insane and killing family members in a rage or mentally unstable..like the guy recently arrested in Quebec that killed
> his (mother in law?) and two small little girls...and it's shocking to hear about these kinds of killings, but the
> honor killing mindset on the rise is something we are definitely not used to hearing about in this country...at
> least until June 2009 at the Kingston Locks.


But it is not the first 'honour' killing in Canada. I guess the previous cases were not 'sensational' enough to grab the national attention.

(And to clarify before my meaning is torqued by selective interpretation, by 'sensational' I mean 'causing intense interest, curiosity, or emotion')


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## Sasquatch (Jan 28, 2012)

Karen said:


> Andrew, you're putting words into my mouth that I neither said nor meant. At no time did I ever say that we should not admit immigrants from Muslim countries. But I do feel very strongly that we should screen them more carefully than we do those from other countries, and I have no apologies to make for feeling that way.


Well said, Karen !

Most of us realize that we cannot make blanket statements about any group of people, however, if it turns out that one group has a higher incidence of certain actions that we find undesireable, then that group deserves more attention. 
It's not exactly rocket science.

When I came here in 1967, my whole family (parents, myself and my sister) had applied for immigration to Canada but I was the only one to be accepted. 

We never found out why my parents and my sister were not. 

We were simply told by immigration, that reasons are not required to be disclosed. 

My sister at the time was too young to come without parents, unlike myself and why my parents were not accepted is anybody's guess.

Could be because my dad didn't speak english, or maybe because he was a soldier in the German Army during the war ? 

We'll never know  

My point is that screening is necessary, especially at the present time and how much money an individual brings here should have absolutely no bearing on his/her eligibility for immigration. 

The accelerated immigration procedure with a consequent relaxing of entry rules and background checks for wealthy individuals is just wrong, there is no other way of putting it


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Though honour crimes are mostly against women and girls, men are victims too. 

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/13/world/europe/turkey-gay-killing/index.html

In Iran & other countries in the region, they are hanged because it's the law.

"In Iran, we don't have homosexuals like you do in your country. This does not exist in our country."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/07/iran-executes-men-homosexuality-charges


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> But it is not the first 'honour' killing in Canada. I guess the previous cases were not 'sensational' enough to grab the national attention.
> 
> (And to clarify before my meaning is torqued by selective interpretation, by 'sensational' I mean 'causing intense interest, curiosity, or emotion')


Ok, let's not take this discussion into the realms of serial killers, like Olsen (deceased now), Picton, ex Col Russell Wiliams and scores of others.
I realize that Canada has enough home grown deranged serial killers (pyschopaths) that kill without any feelings or remorse to satisfy their twisted sexual predatory warped/deranged minds. Any life lost to these heinous crimes is to be viewed in sympathy and respect for the lives lost to us and Canada, whether it was the children that Olsen murdered brutally, or the Vancouver "ladies of the night" that Picton took to his place, murdered, chopped up and fed to his pigs..or the infamous colonel in our airforce... that led a secret double life and was considered beyond reproach.

Honour killings is a new type of crime that we did not have to deal with publicly, although as you said, the Kingston locks tragedy was not the first one prepretated by certain cultures/religions that immigrated into this country and carry on as though they never left those countries. Even if we can't stop deranged killers from killing, we must somehow figure
out a way to limit immigration from those countries that practice it.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> Though honour crimes are mostly against women and girls, men are victims too.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/13/world/europe/turkey-gay-killing/index.html
> 
> ...


T.G...you forgot to clarify who actually said that...a totalitarian dictator
that rules the country with iron fist and threatens the west/Israel with nuclear annihilation because of his views against western democracy and the fact that both genders are treated equally here. 

This is no different than Hitler, another maniacal dictator that executed (gas chambers) the infirm first,
and then one of his most devoted followers because he was suspected to be homosexual. 
In the end, he exterminated not only the homosexuals, but millions of others and died in a bunker like the
coward that he was, when the Russians were closing in on him. When these manical dictators are finally
cornered..guess what..they don't have any more extreme power..that power is in the enforcers, the
men that enforce their laws, and the sharia court "judges" that are basically executioners..doing the dirty
work for the likes of Ahmadinejad and others like him.


<from the online link above> 
We should not forget what [president] Mahmoud Ahmadinejad *said in a speech during his visit to New York for the UN general assembly when he said we don't have homosexuals in Iran and no one will be punished for homosexuality in the country. *Many innocent people have indeed been sentenced to death or hanged in secret based on such ambiguous accusations in Iran [in recent years]." <end>


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Sasquatch said:


> The accelerated immigration procedure with a consequent relaxing of entry rules and background checks for wealthy individuals is just wrong, there is no other way of putting it


That's the way it is unfortunately.

How many Nazi's escaped to South America through the network set up for them to escape..The Odessa File (it's also a 
book) is believed to exist then, that allowed criminals of the Third Reich (like Eichmann) and the infamous Dr. Mengele (who murdered children indiscriminately in the concentration camps of Poland, without remorse or feeling because he
was impowered by the criminals of the Third Reich to do as he wished before they were disposed of. 

Where did all the gold from the fillings of the victims end up?..in the Swiss banks, who stood by while millions were
being plundered and murdered by the Nazis. Oh yes..lets not forget that the Swiss, who declared neutrality during
the European wars were willing to take any plunder from the Nazis..no questions asked. 

After the war, except for those that got caught, most had already exercised their escape plans to countries that accepted them without questions asked as refugees or whatever pretext they immigrated under. 
In South America, in certain countries there were a lot of German sympathizers that sheltered them until they could get established with hidden identities, so the Nazi hunters could not easily find them. 

So wealth, or lack of is not an issue if one wants to get into a country for whatever reason.

Shafia had other reasons...otherwise he would have stayed in Dubai, where he appeared to be successful.


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## Sasquatch (Jan 28, 2012)

carverman said:


> That's the way it is unfortunately.
> 
> How many Nazi's escaped to South America through the network set up for them to escape..The Odessa File (it's also a
> book) is believed to exist then, that allowed criminals of the Third Reich (like Eichmann) and the infamous Dr. Mengele (who murdered children indiscriminately in the concentration camps of Poland, without remorse or feeling because he
> ...


Along the same lines the pope never opened his mouth once to protest Hitler's atrocities occuring practically under his nose.

The Americans, in their haste to get ahead of the Russians after the war, also had no problem to admit known nazies into their country to kickstart their consequent space race. As far as I know they were never investigated as such and were granted citizenship matter of factly.

The Russians did the same but on a much smaller scale. 

There are a lot more examples one could find, where so called national interest overrides any and all laws of ethics, justice and plain human compassion 

Unfortunately I don't see that changing, ever


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

won't you please document about the nazis.

the way i understand history is that the americans admitted scores of brilliant nuclear scientists from europe during the 1930s to work on the manhattan project which would soon produce the atomic bomb. It happened that many of these scientists were jewish. Absolutely none were nazis afaik.

names like enrico fermi, eugene wigner, in fact albert einstein himself, were & are legends in US nobel prize winning history.

there was no space program for decades to come. Won't you please let us know the "nazis" you believe were admitted to the US to create it.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> there was no space program for decades to come. Won't you please let us know the "nazis" you believe were admitted to the US to create it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun


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## Sasquatch (Jan 28, 2012)

AAAAAHHHH....... gotta love Wikipedia 

Thank You CC

and humble_pie, you're right about the Manhattan Project, however, that's from an earlier time and was strictly related to producing the nuclear bomb.

I was talking about post war occurences and the attempt of the Americans to outmaneuver the Russians wrt rocket technology which ultimately resulted in the space race.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

thank you CC & sasquatch. A whole chapter doth open before my wondering eyes.

& quite a lot of von braun's former german staff came over in the paperclip operation, or so it says. 127 of them, although no documentation as to how many were actually nazis. Plus the wiki article i saw had warnings that some material needs corroboration ...

there's a big difference between how they were treated, wouldn't you say.

on the one hand the atomic scientists, none of whom were nazis afaik, feted by presidents, honoured by leading universities, frequent recipients of nobel prizes in physics.

on the other hand the german rocket scientists under the old nazi von braun, hidden away in what looks like semi-disgrace on army arsenals in the deep south to continue working on their blastoffs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Sasquatch said:


> AAAAAHHHH....... gotta love Wikipedia
> 
> Thank You CC
> 
> ...


The Americans grabbed Werner Von Braun at the Peeneumunde (sP?) V2 rocket program along with some other lesser rocket scientists at the very end of the
war because the US Army wanted to start their own rocket program..the US Army
Redstone was one of the first from modified plans of the German V2..

excerpt from wiki..(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2)

A_t the end of the war, a race began between the United States and the USSR to retrieve as many V-2 rockets and staff as possible. Three hundred rail-car loads of V-2s and parts were captured and shipped to the United States *and 126 of the principal designers, including Wernher von Braun and Walter Dornberger were in American hands. Von Braun, his brother Magnus von Braun and seven others decided to surrender to the United States military* (Operation Paperclip) to ensure they were not captured by the advancing Soviets or shot dead by the Nazis to prevent their capture._

However..some were investigated by the US Justice dept for atrocities committed at the various slave labour concentration
camps that was responsible for the NaziV2 program..

<excerpt from http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/ops/peenemunde.htm>

Months of combat couldn't steel World War II American GI's for the sights they witnessed when they liberated the Nazi death camp at Nordhausen, Germany, on April 11, 1945. Atrocities perpetrated at V-2 production facilities at Nordhausen and the nearby concentration camp at Dora s*timulated controversy that plagued the rocket pioneers who left Germany after the war.* Arthur Rudolph, who had been a V-2 project engineer, left the United States in 1984 following the Department of Justice's discovery of his role in the persecution of prisoners at the Nordhausen factory. <end>


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

hmmmn wasn't wernher von braun the model for dr strangelove in the stanley kubrick classic ...


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> on the other hand the german rocket scientists under the old nazi von braun, hidden away in what looks like semi-disgrace on army arsenals in the deep south to continue working on their blastoffs.


If you have the "right" qualifications (and ex Nazi Von Braun did) any country will welcome you with ..almost open arms. 
Lets face it the Russians scooped up what the Americans left behind and whisked it off to their rocket program
development as the cold war started heating up right after the end of WWII in 1945.


<from online source ..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_space_program

_Although the Katyusha was very effective on the Eastern Front during World War II, the advanced state of the German rocket program amazed Russian engineers who inspected its remains at Peenemünde and Mittelwerk after the end of the war in Europe. *Although the Americans had secretly moved most leading German scientists and 100 V-2 rockets to the United States in Operation Paperclip the Russian program greatly benefited from captured German records and scientists, in particular drawings obtained from the V-2 production sites*. Under the direction of Dimitri Ustinov, Korolyov and others inspected the drawings. Helped by rocket scientist Helmut Gröttrup and other captured Germans until the early 1950s, they built a replica of the V-2 called the R-1, although the weight of Soviet nuclear warheads required a more powerful booster. Korolyov's OKB-1 design bureau was dedicated to the liquid-fueled cryogenic rockets he had been experimenting with in the late 1930s. Ultimately, this work resulted in the design of the R-7 Semyorkaintercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) which was successfully tested in August 1957._ <end>

So when it comes to national defence and the space race...former affiliation with the enemy is not an issue. 
Gerald Bull, a Canadian engineer went to work for Saddam on the super cannon project which had it been successfull
could have lobbed chemical weapons s at Israel. Bull was assassinated by the MOSAD before he had a chance to get it into operation.


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## Sasquatch (Jan 28, 2012)

Carverman, you've obviously done a lot of reading on this subject.
Very impressive 

I've always hated history in school and even failed it one year probably because of the way it was presented...... rote learning of years and names.....how incredibly boring.

It was only after I matured that I developed a strong interest especially in Europaen history of the first half of the 20th century. 
The fact that my roots are there has probably something to do with it


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Ssshhh - keep this to your yourself because we wouldn't want it to go to his head, but carverman has a pretty impressive knowledge of a lot of things!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Sasquatch said:


> Carverman, you've obviously done a lot of reading on this subject.
> Very impressive


More like subscribing to the History and Military channel on Sat tv.
Being born in 1946 in what was then western Germany, I have some strange yearning to find out what events happened there, one year before I was born. I guess in a way, it is interesting, because my mother survived the intense allied bombing of the surround cities ...and there fore I have a reason for being alive in the first place. Many of my mother's co-workers
didn't survive. 

If interested, you can read all about my birthplace there..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soltau
_From 1934 several Wehrmacht units were quartered at Wolterdingen Camp (Lager Wolterdingen) and *after the end of the Second World War it was used to house refugees and forced labourers until about 1960.* From time to time the front reached Soltau. *In April 1945, the town was partly destroyed by air raids, in which there were many more civilian victims than military*_*.*




> I've always hated history in school and even failed it one year probably because of the way it was presented...... rote learning of years and names.....how incredibly boring.


In my case, I've had a fascination with history, particularly WWII, the cause and the details. I have read the book on Hitler by John Toland, and wondered why it happened in the first place. We've heard that over 6 million Jews died
in the concentration camps of Poland and elsewhere, but in reality if you count all the lives lost, German, Soviet, Allied and many European countries affected ( Poland, Holland, Italy, Belgium, France, the Baltics, Norway,Denmark and some others..*over 50 million were lost*. (Unsubstantiated of course). Imagine nearly twice the population of Canada....35 million now...lives lost in that conflict. 

This is not counting the Pacific war, where the Japanese and countries they occupied + the Allies....and it all started because of one deragned individual who managed to get to power through "the back door" and was made
chancellor and then declared himself supreme dictator.



> It was only after I matured that I developed a strong interest especially in Europaen history of the first half of the 20th century.
> The fact that my roots are there has probably something to do with it


Well, I'm pretty much the same way...I started to get fascinated later on in life...because I want to know why I am existing in the first place and when you come into this world after a lot of strife..you start to wonder,
if there is a purpose for you existing in the first place..the chain of events leading up to it.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Karen said:


> Ssshhh - keep this to your yourself because we wouldn't want it to go to his head, but carverman has a pretty impressive knowledge of a lot of things!


Aw..gee Karen, now you let the cat out of the bag....I was thinking of applying
to NASA..after all it's only "rocket science"...but they probably would have
sent me a letter back thanking me that I was overqualified.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

carverman said:


> I was thinking of applying to NASA..after all it's only "rocket science"...but they probably would have sent me a letter back thanking me that I was overqualified.


No doubt. 

But I thought you were going to apply for a CSI/J/W job [Crime-Scene-Investigator/Journalist/Writer].

Seriously, your knowledge is very much appreciated, oh, and the humour as well. 

I see that we got off-topic though.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> No doubt.
> 
> I see that we got off-topic though.


It had to happen. We started discussing immigration policies and what
qualifications (or lack of) Canada would have to admit Shafia as a landed
immigrant. Perhaps..(and this is only a theory, because we are not privy
to the immigration lawyers criteria that was submitted), he was "fast tracked"
because he said he was a "business man". 

From there it went to countries sometimes accepting "refugees" or people of
importance with certain skills because of specific needs within the country
they went to..and so we ended up with ex-Nazis and the rocket program.

Ok..back to the main topic..Honor killings..


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## not_a_virus.exe (Feb 23, 2012)

I just have to laugh at the end when he defends himself for killing his daughter for becoming "too westernized". Like what did he think was going to happen when he chose to live in western society?


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