# Looking at switching Investments what do you think.



## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

Hey guys,

I am thinking about switching one of my investments with my company RRSP. Right now I have 25% of that money invested in bonds explained in the immage below.



Due to my age 24 and the low return I am getting from it (under 1% over this last year) I am thinking about re directing my my cash to a different fund. I have lots of time to ride out the market and still have 75% of my company RRSP invested in different funds averaging 6.7% on them.

This is the fund I was thinking about switching too.

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/fraser1989/20131121_125218_zpsb43c378a.jpg

Different fund with different goals. Really I am just looking to get a better return as the sub 1% just isn't something I feel too good about.

Any thoughts you feel like sharing with me at this time.

Thanks,
Fraser


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## MRT (Apr 8, 2013)

I think you may want to provide details on the rest of your portfolio so people here can offer advice on whether or not it is a good idea to be switching 25% of your portfolio from bonds to large-cap equities.

If that is putting you 100% equities, that is not a good idea (and there may be a lot of overlap with what you already hold?)


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## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

It sounds like you are removing your 25% bond component and going 100% equity.

As long as you are prepared to ride out that inevitable year when equities go down 30% or more, then I think you've already answered your question.


Fraser19 said:


> I have lots of time to ride out the market.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Agreed avrex. If investors can't stomach 30%+ losses (most people can't, I definitely struggle with it) then they need some bonds.


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

I'm not going to struggle to read that. Thinking you pick this with out to much thought.

So you really need to get studying. Maybe 3-6months take a few K and buy some stocks. With a little skin in the game you will really start to understand. A good amount of fear is alright sleepless nights high stress not worth it.


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## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

Sorry I didn't think to show the rest of the funds.

Here are the bonds (same as shown above)


Another fund I hold right now doing pretty good.

I see my thumb has cut off the companies in the fund. They are,
Cebovus Energy
SPDR S&P 500 EFT
Suncor Energy
Potash Corp. Of Sask
Bank of Montreal
BCE Inc

Another fund doing well


My preferred fund as it is doing the best


The funds are listed in order from lowest to highest return.

Another option I was thinking about would to reduce my contributions to each fund by 5% and put them toward the other fund I was looking at. Then I would hold the 5 funds in my work RRSP and contribute 20% of my total contributions to each fund.


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## chantl01 (Mar 17, 2011)

I think you need to look at your company's RRSP fund offerings with an eye to minimizing costs. Your preferred mutual fund right now, the Manulife Fidelity Canadian Disciplined Equity fund has a MER of 3.06%, which you can see here:
http://pdf.globefund.com/servlet/Fu...ile/pdf/en/pages/gif/gif_can_eq&branding=manf

It's really hard for a fund to overcome the drag caused by an over 3% management fee to outperform over the long term. Also, all your equity funds seem to be variations of the same goal - assessing themselves against the S&P/TSX Total Return. Which means they are all holding the same financial and energy stocks. You need to diversify into the U.S. and International markets as well. 

But first, see if there are any index funds available to you. And do a bit of reading up on index investing - it's the best (most profitable) time I've ever spent.


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## P_I (Dec 2, 2011)

Rather that photos, why not use Google to your advantage, see Manulife Fidelity Canadian Disciplined Equity


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## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

chantl01 said:


> I think you need to look at your company's RRSP fund offerings with an eye to minimizing costs. Your preferred mutual fund right now, the Manulife Fidelity Canadian Disciplined Equity fund has a MER of 3.06%, which you can see here:
> http://pdf.globefund.com/servlet/Fu...ile/pdf/en/pages/gif/gif_can_eq&branding=manf
> 
> It's really hard for a fund to overcome the drag caused by an over 3% management fee to outperform over the long term. Also, all your equity funds seem to be variations of the same goal - assessing themselves against the S&P/TSX Total Return. Which means they are all holding the same financial and energy stocks. You need to diversify into the U.S. and International markets as well.
> ...


I do not see the MER on any of the pages I have. Is there a way to spot them in my book?


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## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

These are all of the Index funds I can find that are offerd through manulife with my work RRSP plan

International equity
http://pdf.globefund.com/servlet/Fu...universe=MLI_POOLED&branding=manp&product_id=

US Equity 
http://pdf.globefund.com/servlet/Fu...universe=MLI_POOLED&branding=manp&product_id=

Canadain Equity
http://pdf.globefund.com/servlet/Fu...universe=MLI_POOLED&branding=manp&product_id=

Canadian Bond 
http://pdf.globefund.com/servlet/Fu...universe=MLI_POOLED&branding=manp&product_id=

Any input on these funds?
I could lower my input into the other funds and add these in if it will cut back on costs and still perform well.

Question that I do not understand.
Since the management cost isn't listed in my book or I cannot find it am I paying a high % for someone to manage my current bonds? If so would it be better to switch to the index bonds?

Guys I am new at this and really appreciate your help.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

I Googled your Canadian Equity Fund and here are the data from Globe Investor:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/funds-and-etfs/funds/summary/?id=75609

If you scroll down to Fund Facts, it says that the MER is 3.55% (!!!!)

If that is what you are paying through your group plan, you will never get ahead.


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## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

heyjude said:


> I Googled your Canadian Equity Fund and here are the data from Globe Investor:
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/funds-and-etfs/funds/summary/?id=75609
> 
> ...


Just to be clear this is the fund I have that is my "preferred fund" that I mentioned in post #6


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## chantl01 (Mar 17, 2011)

Wow, I have never seen any mutual fund company that was quite so opaque when it comes to revealing the MER on their funds. Scratch that - Investors Group is equally bad. However, I did find a good page that has pretty succinct facts on the various Manulife mutual funds. If you can find the funds you're interested in on this list, it will be easy to identify the MER associated with the fund as they're all listed in the 4th column. Your other option is to ask for and read the prospectus on the various funds offered through your company's RRSP.
http://pricesandperformance.manulifemutualfunds.ca/manulife/paag/en/html/


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Instead of freaking the OP with skyhigh MER numbers, suggest OP ask your plan sponsor (HR?) or call Manulife to confirm what those numbers are exactly. It would appear from your Bond fund only, they're these #s:

*Operating expenses (As at December 31)
Defined in Fund operating expenses section below
2012 = 0.021% / 2011 = 0.020% /2010 = 0.012%* 

which are no where near 3.xx +%.


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## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

This is extremely confusing for me. 

So really what I understand is that Manulife doesn't list the fees on the pages. I can search on the internet hoping to find the right fund and that I find to be extremely difficult and when I do it almost never shows the fees.

Again here are my four current funds,
http://pdf.globefund.com/servlet/Fu...ding=manps&product_id=330&universe=MLI_POOLED
http://pdf.globefund.com/servlet/Fu...=html&fund_id=71986&branding=manp&product_id=
http://pdf.globefund.com/servlet/Fu...ding=manps&product_id=330&universe=MLI_POOLED
http://pdf.globefund.com/servlet/Fu...niverse=MLI_POOLED&branding=manps&product_id=

Only the third one on the list mentiones any fees,

2012 2011 2010
0.050% 0.061% 0.201%

And that is only the IMF and not the MER? and the MER is not listed anywhere on any of the pages.

So far do I understand correctly?


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## chantl01 (Mar 17, 2011)

Fraser19 said:


> Only the third one on the list mentiones any fees,
> 
> 2012 2011 2010
> 0.050% 0.061% 0.201%
> ...


That sounds about right. Since this is a private company RRSP offerings, I'm guessing Manulife doesn't publish data online about the specific mutual funds. And it appears from the fund info sheets you have been provided, that they don't even offer up the MER (easily) to potential investors. You may need to insist on seeing the prospectus for each fund you are considering. I think the mutual fund company has to provide you with that information, and the MER is likely to be buried inside the document. But make sure you do find the MER - as you've seen, operating fees and management fees are part of, but not the entire, Management Expense Ratio (MER).


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## chantl01 (Mar 17, 2011)

By the way, that Manulife Mawer Canadian Balanced Fund you are considering may meet all your needs in a single fund. If you read its description, it says:

Rate of return expectation
Over the long term, this fund is expected to outperform a benchmark comprised of the following:
• 35% DEX Universe Bond Index
• 20% S&P/TSX Composite Index
• 20% S&P 500 Index ($ Cdn)
• 20% MSCI EAFE Index ($ Cdn)
• 5% DEX 91-Day T-Bill Index

It's a balanced fund based on a bunch of underlying Mawer funds in the various categories - Canadian Bond, Canadian Equity, US Equity, International Equity. Again, it's impossible to determine the actual MER for this fund, but Mawer has a reputation as being among the less expensive mutual funds when it comes to MER. And being a balanced fund, you don't need to worry about rebalancing your portfolio - the management company will do that for you. Just a thought.


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## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

Investment.............................................IMF%..............YTD...........1yr*..........2yr*.........3yr*..........4yr*..........5yr*..........10yr*
5141 ML Fidelity Canadian AA d2..................2.625.............10.1..........10.2...........7.2...........5.5............7.2...........N/A............N/A
5452 MLI Mawer Canadian Balanced d9..........2.250.............16.6..........19.9...........15.5.........11.5..........N/A...........N/A............N/A
7144 ML Fidelity Cdn Disciplined d0...............2.625..............16.5.........17.8............10.7.........7.0...........10.2..........N/A............N/A

Here is some more information I got on them from a fund selection link on the manulife webpage. There are more fees than what is listed on the IMF%
From the reading I have done today if those are the IMF fees and the MER is another 2.x% these are all horrible funds? 



> Fund operating expenses
> Manulife Segregated Funds may be structured as fund-on-fund(s) (invest into one or more underlying funds) or may be structured with no underlying fund. Some of the costs covered in operating expenses are the costs of operating and maintaining a fund, and include items such as legal, audit, trustee, custodial, and fund valuation fees. Operating expenses are incurred by the Segregated Fund and by the Underlying Fund (if applicable).
> 
> Manulife segregated fund operating expenses
> ...


Still figuring this out....


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## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

I think I got this figured but I want to double check.

There is this fund
http://pdf.globefund.com/servlet/Fu...nding=manp&product_id=330&universe=MLI_POOLED 
I assume this to be an index fund as it has index in the name.

IT has this information about the fund listed, 

..............................Investment.............IMF%...............YTD..........1yr*..........2yr*..........3yr*..........4yr*..........5yr*..........10yr*
7132 ML MAM Cd Equity Index h6.............1.975...............10.3.........11.0...........7.7............4.8............8.2...........9.7............8.5

Indside the document it says
2012.........2011.......2010
0.036%...0.035%...0.022%

Lets say everything stays the same as 2012 would my fees be 1.975% IMF and 0.036 for a total of 2.011% for all fees?


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

I would fined out how long before you can move this money.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

The IMF is another name for the MER. As chant101 subsequently mentioned above, you have a private company (group) RRSP offering meaning the funds offered by Manulife is catered to your company and that IMF (aka MER) numbers would be specific to your company. It is best if you call / email Manulife, provide your group RRSP plan number and simply ask them "what is the MER equivalents" charged to the funds that you invest with them. They have to tell you and by law, they have to publish the MER, aka IMF if they going to sell you / your company/ plan sponsor the funds. Give us the good news /confirm those numbers are <1% under your group RRSP once you find out. :encouragement:


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## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

Beaver101 said:


> The IMF is another name for the MER. As chant101 subsequently mentioned above, you have a private company (group) RRSP offering meaning the funds offered by Manulife is catered to your company and that IMF (aka MER) numbers would be specific to your company. It is best if you call / email Manulife, provide your group RRSP plan number and simply ask them "what is the MER equivalents" charged to the funds that you invest with them. They have to tell you and by law, they have to publish the MER, aka IMF if they going to sell you / your company/ plan sponsor the funds. Give us the good news /confirm those numbers are <1% under your group RRSP once you find out. :encouragement:


Thank you very much. 
This stuff can confuse the hell out of me but that was very clear to understand. Ill give them a call Monday and report back.


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## derico (Nov 23, 2013)

Do you use the manulife website to check your portfolio? There's easy access to IMF information on the website. 

I'm in a Manulife plan at work, and while I don't have access to the first fund you listed, I do have the others, and they are all ones I use within my portfolio. None are 3%, my lowest is @ 1.35%, others around 1.6% with the highest at 2.25% (global REITS, but it's only 7% of the portfolio). For fees I do much better with my other RRSP account with ETFs through a discount brokerage, but the manulife account is RRSP money from my employer and I can't put it anywhere else but here, so I have tried to lower my fees as best I can. 



Fraser19 said:


> Thank you very much.
> This stuff can confuse the hell out of me but that was very clear to understand. Ill give them a call Monday and report back.


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## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

Figured I would update this. I did change some of the funds around, also when looking at the MER on google and the pages provided from out RRSP plan the MER is lower for us on some of the funds.
I currently have 7 funds through my work RRSP.

In my RRSP with work I have the following funds,

Balanced funds
5132 ML MMF Monthly High Income g8 (MER 2.175)	
5452 MLI Mawer Canadian Balanced d9 (MER 2.250)

CDN Small Cap
7122 ML MMF Growth Opportunities j4 (MER 2.425)
7381 ML FGP Small Cap Cdn Equity c8 (MER 2.225)

CDN Large Cap
7144 ML Fidelity Cdn Disciplined d0 (MER 2.625)

International Equity
8321 ML BR Intl Equity Index e1 (MER 2.125)

US Equity 
8322 ML BR U.S. Equity Index m0 (MER 2.050)

Unfortunately out of all the funds available the lowest MER is 1.875, and most of them have been getting negative returns when inflation is taken into account.

Here is my monthly returns so far. (Keep in mind this is a work RRSP that is small as I have not been there for a full year)
September ,stating balance 711.96 investment gain, 7.76
October, starting balance, 1431.72 investment gain, 33.12
November, starting balance 1464.84 investment gain, 16.56
December, starting balance 2213.40 investment gain, 35.76
January, starting balance 2249.54 investment gain, 17.72
February, starting balance 3156.88 investment gain, 113.71
March, starting balance 3626.59 investment gain, 6.70
April, starting balance 3982.65 investment gain, 27.74
May, starting balance 5373.11 investment gain, 23.73
June/July Starting balance 5,396.48, investment gain 1463.48

So a total of 446.28 which based on my calculation is around 9.1%

One of the original parts of this thread was about bonds, I have removed all bonds from this account as none of them have provided recent returns above the posted MER.


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

chantl01 said:


> Wow, I have never seen any mutual fund company that was quite so opaque when it comes to revealing the MER on their funds. Scratch that - Investors Group is equally bad. However, I did find a good page that has pretty succinct facts on the various Manulife mutual funds. If you can find the funds you're interested in on this list, it will be easy to identify the MER associated with the fund as they're all listed in the 4th column. Your other option is to ask for and read the prospectus on the various funds offered through your company's RRSP.
> http://pricesandperformance.manulifemutualfunds.ca/manulife/paag/en/html/


Generally, when these employer sponsored funds are put together, the rate is highly dependent on the employer: 10 person shop: huge MERs. 1000 person shop, better MERs.

Our company uses Great West Life, and our fees are not great. But we're a small company. And the MER wasn't listed in the perspective (nor were the charts and figures provided net of fees). The fees were provided separately to us. If the OP works for a larger company, the MERs might be better than the posted Manulife rates.


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