# Still no chip and PIN in the US



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The US has finally introduced chip cards (I have one issued by a US bank) but there's no PIN!

Resulting in misunderstandings like the following... I went to a restaurant in the US with some friends. We told the server we'd like to pay our bills separately. She grabbed our two credit cards, then brought back two bills to sign: mine, and the other party.

Unknown to all of us at the time, my credit card had been run on both my little bill and the second giant 4x bill of the other party. They signed the receipt for my credit card and both charges ended up on my card.

I noticed it through online banking a few days later, and called the restaurant. They are reversing that charge and the restaurant is taking the hit on 4x bill. Ouch for the restaurant.

Entering a PIN for each charge would have prevented this!


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

james4beach said:


> I noticed it through online banking a few days later, and called the restaurant. They are reversing that charge and the restaurant is taking the hit on 4x bill. Ouch for the restaurant.


My credit card issued in the U.S. by a U.S. bank has both chip and pin.

As for "Ouch for the restaurant", are your friends unwilling to put right what was a simple error?


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## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

I have a chip credit card from Wells Fargo. I received notification of a PIN and went into the branch to change the number. They were unable to change the PIN


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## wraphter (Sep 21, 2016)

This doesn't seem like such a "simple error". The waitress had two credit cards . How difficult is it to run two cards? It seems rather negligent that she charged
one card twice, then the wrong party signed j4b's receipt. So that receipt is invalid. How do you know it was a "simple error"? Maybe it was unconsciously malicious.

If someone short-changes you is it just a simple error or deliberate? Maybe they tried to cheat you.

i have a US dollar TD Card. Swipe plus pin.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

wraphter said:


> This doesn't seem like such a "simple error". The waitress had two credit cards . How difficult is it to run two cards? It seems rather negligent that she charged
> one card twice, then the wrong party signed j4b's receipt. So that receipt is invalid. How do you know it was a "simple error"? Maybe it was unconsciously malicious.
> 
> If someone short-changes you is it just a simple error or deliberate? Maybe they tried to cheat you.


I can buy the negligence argument. The server was careless. 

Just how, pray tell, can one be "unconsciously malicious"? Malicious, by definition, requires an element of intent. 

There appears to be no evidence here of an intention to cheat. I do not see how the restaurant or the server benefited from what took place. The bill was paid in full and no more. The whole amount was charged to james4 in error. That should not have occurred, but it did. But, from what james4 has said, the party whose card was not run ended up escaping a rather large bill. Where's the justice in that? If anyone should receive some kind of recompense for the error, I would think it should be james4. He was the one who had to discover the error and deal with having it reversed. It would be entirely appropriate for the restaurant to make a goodwill gesture towards him, such as a free meal next time, or some such.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I will be compensated for the error... the restaurant agreed on the phone that they will refund the charge for the wrong bill. (They know that if they don't refund it, I will initiate a charge-back with the bank since there is no valid signature).

I've also emailed this friend and explained to them that I am having the error refunded, and that they are welcome to follow up with the restaurant if they want to pay their bill -- not my business. I doubt they will go out of their way to pay this bill when it was the restaurant's mistake. The waiter could have avoided the trouble, and loss to the restaurant, by simply checking the name printed on the receipt. Definitely their mistake.

Strange thing is that I do have a PIN for this card but in all the places I've used it in the US, nobody has ever prompted me for a PIN.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

james4beach said:


> I will be compensated for the error... the restaurant agreed on the phone that they will refund the charge for the wrong bill. (They know that if they don't refund it, I will initiate a charge-back with the bank since there is no valid signature).
> 
> I've also emailed this friend and explained to them that I am having the error refunded, and that they are welcome to follow up with the restaurant if they want to pay their bill -- not my business. I doubt they will go out of their way to pay this bill when it was the restaurant's mistake. The waiter could have avoided the trouble, and loss to the restaurant, by simply checking the name printed on the receipt. Definitely their mistake.
> 
> Strange thing is that I do have a PIN for this card but in all the places I've used it in the US, nobody has ever prompted me for a PIN.


I have the same situation with my US credit card. Odd indeed.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

james4beach said:


> ...
> 
> Strange thing is that I do have a PIN for this card but in all the places I've used it in the US, nobody has ever prompted me for a PIN.


Probably because they don't have a terminal to process it, because they are so far behind in introducing CHIP & PIN in the US.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Well it was either a simple example of incompetence or willful fraud. If your "friends" card was rejected and they used your card again, then that is fraud. But using 2 cards without PIN checking is nothing new. I would let the restaurant suck it up to prevent such sloppy process in the future.

They cannot even bill your friend because they have no record of his card.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

And I'll bet the PIN (if you do have one) is imperial rather than metric. What a backwater :topsy_turvy:


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

wraphter said:


> Mukhang pera said:
> 
> 
> > ... As for "Ouch for the restaurant", are your friends unwilling to put right what was a simple error?
> ...


How difficult is it to return Mr A's credit card to Mr A instead of Mr. W?

My co-worker missed that one for a couple of hours then reported the CC missing.


Cheers


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Eclectic12 said:


> How difficult is it to return Mr A's credit card to Mr A instead of Mr. W?
> 
> My co-worker missed that one for a couple of hours then reported the CC missing.


Well, I have to accept that I am decidedly out of step here and I must accept that no reasonable server could make the mistake made, regardless of how rushed or whatever other circumstances might prevail. What occurred was, in its most favourable light, gross negligence and, more likely, it was done with some kind of malice and fraudulent intent. So if the server ends up paying a $500 tab, that's fitting, in fact, lenient. Simply sticking the malefactors with an unpaid bill is a wholly inadequate reflection of society's condemnation of such egregious misconduct.

Just to show how enlightened my thinking has become as a result of this thread, I am going to suggest to james4 and his dining companions that they retain an attorney and sue for millions. The infamous conduct of the server and the establishment is deserving of stern rebuke. It should be no less harsh than that we fully expect to be meted out by the courts against one airline for its evicted passenger and another airline for subjecting a passenger to a murderous assault over a stroller. In each case, there should also be serious criminal sanction. A minimal charge in each case would be assault causing bodily harm and a more measured response would be attempted murder charges.


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## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

Went down there for the Easter long weekend. They have machines with chip and tap. Did the tap a few times for small transactions, and the everyday American retailers gazed upon my technology in wonder. Look upon my credit cards, ye mighty, and despair!


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Mukhang pera said:


> Well, I have to accept that I am decidedly out of step here and I must accept that no reasonable server could make the mistake made, regardless of how rushed or whatever other circumstances might prevail. hat occurred was, in its most favourable light, gross negligence and, more likely, it was done with some kind of malice and fraudulent intent ...


Yet a server made what is to me, a bigger error giving the wrong card back.

I could assume it's with malice and fraudulent intent but the five plus hours with no charges made to the card before it was reported missing suggest it was a simple mistake that the server plus one for sure and possibly two card holders didn't notice. Rush or no rush.




Mukhang pera said:


> ... Just to show how enlightened my thinking has become as a result of this thread, I am going to suggest to james4 and his dining companions that they retain an attorney and sue for millions. The infamous conduct of the server and the establishment is deserving of stern rebuke ...


Hmmm ... maybe I should invest in restaurant server insurance. :biggrin:


Cheers


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

_"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."_
- Murphy's Law Book Two : More Reasons Why Things Go Wrong! (1980) ISBN 0843106743 by Arthur Bloch page 52.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Argonaut said:


> Went down there for the Easter long weekend. They have machines with chip and tap. Did the tap a few times for small transactions, and the everyday American retailers gazed upon my technology in wonder. Look upon my credit cards, ye mighty, and despair!


The same thing happened to me. I tapped the card to pay for the purchase and the salesperson was awestruck -- what the heck just happened?

Funny thing is, this is a US issued card and many Americans are carrying cards with this capability but nobody knows it.


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## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

Sounds like a fairly easy mistake for a busy server to make. I mean she just has to get which card is in which hand mixed up after she's done the first one. 

But I'm baffled by how far America is behind us with this. It looks they have the same machines as us, but nope they aren't hooked up or something, and all you can do is swipe them and sign. No chip payments, no tap payments. How can they serious be 10 years behind us on this? Especially considering all the credit card fraud down there you figure this would be a priority?


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## SW20 MR2 (Dec 18, 2010)

Note that many banks in the US are choosing to issue chip & signature cards in the US. Hence, servers will still take your card away, insert the chip into the terminal, and then bring the receipt for you to sign. The main reasons for going with chip & sig are,

1. Developing the technology to store PINs is very expensive. You have to build the capability to enter, store, and send out PINs to customers through phone, online, mail, ATMs, etc.
2) There are many small banks in the US. If you lock your PIN in an area where they have no ATMs, your card is useless. The inability to use your card means the bank loses revenue.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

CalgaryPotato said:


> But I'm baffled by how far America is behind us with this. It looks they have the same machines as us, but nope they aren't hooked up or something, and all you can do is swipe them and sign. No chip payments, no tap payments. How can they serious be 10 years behind us on this? Especially considering all the credit card fraud down there you figure this would be a priority?


Funny thing is that Americans assume they are ahead of us.

Here's another crazy thing through my American bank. I make various bill payments through the US online banking. I discovered recently that several of the bill recipients actually receive a paper cheque that is mailed to them.

In other words, some bill payments are electronic, but for others -- once the bill payment is "processed" through online banking -- the bank produces a paper cheque that is then stamped and mailed to the company! Yes seriously!

One side effect of this is kind of useful. You can enter an arbitrary person as the bill recipient and the bank will print and mail them a cheque.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

^^^

I can remember the software sales people who would discuss what to say at the border. If they told the truth that they were selling software to the US, they'd get flagged, questioned and delayed as the US border folks "knew" that the US only sells software to the US & the world - they never buy software from other countries. :rolleyes2:


One company worked around it by incorporating in the US, having a head office with minimal staff in the US and 90+% of the developers etc. in Vancouver. On paper, it was a US company selling to the US. :biggrin:



That's funny about the paper cheque.


Cheers


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Here's a question for those of you who travel to the US:

The US has rolled out chip terminals over the last year, and I'm now seeing them just about everywhere on the west coast. When you use your credit card which has a PIN on it, are you finding that the US chip terminals accept your PIN, or are they ignoring the PIN (press Enter with no PIN)?

My Canadian-issued TD US dollar card has a PIN on it. I confirmed it by recently resetting the PIN with TD. I tried renting a car in the US, inserted my card into the chip terminal, and saw the PIN prompt. Nothing surprising so far. However, if I type my correct 4 digit PIN, the transaction fails. On the other hand, if I just hit "Enter" to bypass the PIN prompt, the transaction succeeds.

It was the rental car agent who suggested I just hit Enter. She said she's seen that foreign travellers (Canadians, Europeans) try entering their PIN with no luck, and then it works if they just hit Enter.

Thinking this was just a fluke at the rental car price, I tried it at a major grocery store chain. It's the same: the transaction only works if I hit Enter with no PIN. What are the rest of you seeing? This is pretty confusing because if you actually enter your PIN, you will get failures, and then at 3 failures your card will freeze.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It is possible the USA chip and PIN system is not yet inter-connected with the rest of the world, i.e. the USA is not ready to have interconnects with the rest of the world, and simply using Enter bypasses the chip system for now.

OTOH, we were recently on a cruise to Scotland/Norway/Iceland and about 80% of the passengers were Americans. Best I could tell, many? of them were using their cards the old way, i.e. swipe and sign (and some did not even have chip cards). Anecdotally, I heard some European merchants no longer accepted the swipe option and I thought I also saw some Americans were using chip cards. If they were indeed using chip cards the proper way with a PIN, then that would have required the USA to be interconnected globally and my initial statement would not be correct.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

james4beach said:


> Here's a question for those of you who travel to the US:
> 
> The US has rolled out chip terminals over the last year, and I'm now seeing them just about everywhere on the west coast. When you use your credit card which has a PIN on it, are you finding that the US chip terminals accept your PIN, or are they ignoring the PIN (press Enter with no PIN)?


I find the terminals accept the PIN. Perhaps because these are cards issued in the U.S. by U.S. financial institutions. I do not use anything issued in Canada when in the U.S.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

So far I use the TD Bank (US) Visa debit card that has a chip. Most places still require a swipe but if the terminal does prompt me to enter the chip then I require PIN unless it's under a certain amount ($25?) then no PIN required. I intend to get a Visa credit card from TD Bank (US) soon. My predecessor did this and his Canadian credit score transferred over to US thanks to TD Canada/US


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

The USA is very America-centric. Business there does not think about integrating with the rest of the known world, or accommodating foreign travellers. Eg. - self-serve gas stations that ask for a US Postal Code as a secondary identifier when you try to pay at the pump with a Canadian credit card.

Regarding Chip & PIN, it isn't enough to issue the cards. All the retailers need to get up to speed with Chip & Pin machines. (This is such a massive project I expect there will be several years of transition). A waiter or waitress should bring a portable machine for you to use at your table (as they generally do now in Canada). You are always taking a risk of errors when you hand your credit card to a server. That's why you need to look carefully at the credit card receipt. 

The Tap'n Go feature bypasses the security of both your PIN and your signature. So if you hand your card to someone else, and the bill is within your Tap 'N Go limit, they can still charge it to your card without a signature.

Bragging about how far we are ahead of the US ignores the fact that the EU had Chip & PIN years before us.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

OhGreatGuru said:


> Bragging about how far we are ahead of the US ignores the fact that the EU had Chip & PIN years before us.


Yeah, this thread is an eye opener for me. I had no idea, and just figured that everyone was at the same stage that we were at, so now I know USA is years behind and Europe is years ahead.

I've set up my phone to do NFC (near-field communication) / HCE (host card emulation) recognition at store payment terminals and it works fine, though it creeped me out the first few times. Take out your phone, put it near the terminal, payment made - yikes.

I wonder from James4beach if any stores are allowing that in the USA yet? 

Do other CMF'ers use their phones to pay in lieu of a debit or credit card?

ltr


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> I wonder from James4beach if any stores are allowing that in the USA yet?
> 
> Do other CMF'ers use their phones to pay in lieu of a debit or credit card?
> 
> ltr


Yes and yes

The US cashiers are always amazed when we tap a card but they are used to smartphone payments. My predecessor was able to pay in USD using TD Bank (US) app, TD Bank (US) Visa and Apple pay

Great to fill up a motorbike and pay without taking off any gear or getting out a wallet or phone (Apple Watch)


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Europe has been further ahead for a long time. On our recent trip to Scotland, Norway and Iceland, we used Tap'Go where we could, and chip & PIN for instances where Tap'n Go was beyond the preset limit (limit varies by country). Even for purchases of a few dollars equivalent. We only used cash (Euros) that we had left over from France last year to tip our tour guides. Not a dime of cash was otherwise used for goods and services. What was just as striking, I never saw locals using cash in the stores, even at 71 degrees latitude well above the Arctic Circle.

I have Google Pay set up on the phone but have not used it yet (same value limits it seems as Tap'n Go). Just as easy to tap the actual credit card.

People get too torqued up by Tap'n Go. The usable limits are so low that the risk is immaterial... though as OGG says, I won't let a Tap'n go card out of my sight. The Americans on tour still trying to use 'swipe and sign' seemed so out of place (i.e. from the Cretaceous period).

Added: I use my US issued Chip & PIN card when in the USA. Most places still were using 'swipe and sign' when we were last in the USA in February, but a few were starting to use PIN.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

m3s said:


> So far I use the TD Bank (US) Visa debit card that has a chip. Most places still require a swipe but if the terminal does prompt me to enter the chip then I require PIN unless it's under a certain amount ($25?) then no PIN required. I intend to get a Visa credit card from TD Bank (US) soon. My predecessor did this and his Canadian credit score transferred over to US thanks to TD Canada/US


Interesting. Assuming we have the same card (TD US Dollar Visa) it's strange that mine, unlike yours, prompts for a PIN but then will not accept the real PIN. I can only make the transactions when I skip the PIN step.

Regarding tapping, yes more US retailers are adding support for tap payments (mastercard/visa) which also works with phones that support the same protocol. The Canadian issued CCs with tap support work at an increasing number of US retailers.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Interesting. Assuming we have the same card (TD US Dollar Visa) it's strange that mine, unlike yours, prompts for a PIN but then will not accept the real PIN. I can only make the transactions when I skip the PIN step.


I'm using the TD Bank (US) Visa debit (US domiciled to the TD Bank US chequing account with a zip code) A colleague uses the US dollar Visa from TD Canada Trust which is not the same thing and sometimes has issues in the US (gets frozen or prompts for a zip code etc)

When I was in Europe many non tourist places flat out asked for cash or begrudgingly charged extra for credit cards. They are very conscious of the merchant fees and they hurt small businesses. Tourist places charge tourist rates and don't mind so much

Europe banking was far ahead. They had dual verification that so far only TD has recently clumsily adopted. They also had free electronic transfers that we may never see in Canada as it's probably a cash cow for the banks to charge for simple electronic transfers


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Chip, pin or no chip, no pin....we have never had a problem using our credit card(s) in the US. Alas, quite the opposite unfortunately. 

Nor anywhere else in the world that we have traveled. One of our cards was hacked several times but it was always in Canada or should I say the false charges were always in Canada with the exception of $2. 'try me' charge from New York state.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I have experienced Canadian credit cards not working US and Europe. In many other places I go they don't even accept credit cards period

In Europe the standard merchant is Maestro not Visa/MC. Some gas stations only pay the merchant fees for their local customers cards etc, as rarely does a Canadian tourist venture there and want to buy gas etc. Many places outside of tourist traffic will not accept Visa/MC

There is a difference between a Canadian domiciled USD account and a US domiciled USD account. You can't link a US PayPal account to a Cdn USD account for example. You also can't postpay US phone plan with a Cdn domiciled USD account if they verify the billing address etc

Most of these problems are not encountered during a short visit.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have traveled throughout Europe to some very out of the way places. Usually by rental car. Never had an issue. Though in some places credit cards are no accepted. Certainly many of self serve gas stations in Italy where there is only a gas pump and a cash machine in which to insert payment prior to being able to pump gas. No staff on duty. But apart from places that simply do not accept cards, we have never had an issue with those that do. In Europe, SE Asia, Africa, or Australia.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

ian said:


> Certainly many of self serve gas stations in Italy where there is only a gas pump and a cash machine in which to insert payment prior to being able to pump gas. No staff on duty.


Yup that's exactly what I was thinking of. I remember sometimes feeding Euros into Italian gas pumps and IIRC some only took Maestro and not cash. There were certainly times when having Maestro helped.

When you try to live in a country though it's things like rent, post paid phone bills, online bills and purchases, paypal etc where they'll want to verify that your billing address matches a domestic address and ip address etc


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Yes. We have booked hotels, tours, etc in foreign countries. Had trouble doing one in the EU. I thought the issue was my credit card. Turned out that the site keyed on your address and postal code. Replaced our address with the address of one of the hotels we were staying at and the reservation clicked right through. Other times it kicked back my card saying it was NA instead of EU. Then used our American Express and the transaction went through without difficulty. We have learned as we went along when it came to credit cards and booking travel on foreign sites.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

m3s said:


> I have experienced Canadian credit cards not working US and Europe. In many other places I go they don't even accept credit cards period
> 
> ...


One thing to be aware of is that many countries (including EU) use only a 4-digit PIN. When RBC first issued CHIP & PIN cards in Canada they recommended a 6-digit PIN for security, until their customers discovered these wouldn't work abroad.

Sweden, by the way, recently went completely cashless last year. Only credit cards or debit cards are accepted.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I've never had an issue using Canadian issued chip card Visa or MC in Europe. Mind you, I don't go exploring into remote dark corners either. I don't use my US issued Visa anywhere except USA.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

OhGreatGuru said:


> One thing to be aware of is that many countries (including EU) use only a 4-digit PIN. When RBC first issued CHIP & PIN cards in Canada they recommended a 6-digit PIN for security, until their customers discovered these wouldn't work abroad.
> 
> Sweden, by the way, recently went completely cashless last year. Only credit cards or debit cards are accepted.


That's not entirely true about Sweden, cash is still accepted some places, but it is rarer and more difficult. My husband was there in the spring and wanted to get cash from the bank, he was eventually able to but had to jump through some hoops. 
https://sweden.se/business/cashless-society/


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Spudd said:


> That's not entirely true about Sweden, cash is still accepted some places, but it is rarer and more difficult. My husband was there in the spring and wanted to get cash from the bank, he was eventually able to but had to jump through some hoops.
> https://sweden.se/business/cashless-society/


Countries can be essentially 100% cash free when more upstarts offering less costly* cashless options come on to the scene. Think there will always be a need for some cash though for things like casual tipping, e.g. porters, doormen, tour guides, etc.

We need easier POS apps/options here so that contractors/trades/casual help can simply use their phones to receive payment on the spot. For now, it seems Interac e-transfers are the easiest for me and the casual contractors I hire to make payment, but it should be a lot easier than that, e.g. a way for an expanded version of my Androld Pay app to talk to the contractor's phone. We will know we have arrived when retail cash registers no longer contain cash drawers.

*processing/transaction fees down for vendors.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Tipping is considered demeaning in countries that pay their employees a living wage.

POS apps exist. I recently paid an Austrian owner for a room and he basically came and met me and I paid with visa to his phone. There was no reception staff just a code lock on the front door and it was the best value room I've seen in Canada. Lots of coffee shops and street vendors are using these kinds of POS apps in the US

E transfers are free and secure in Europe. PayPal is pretty good here but nobody has heard of it in Europe because why pay a %..


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Ah, but tipping tour guides, etc. is still a recommended practice since most of them are independent operators. Different than a hotel or restaurant where, yes, employees are paid a living wage.

I agree those POS apps exist in Europe, but they are not yet fully mainstream. I had a tour operator in South Africa use that when we did a wine tour, but not many individual contractors have them yet. It takes probably a 80% saturation point to cause the rest to cave, and for cash to disappear. It will take time.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I think we are just brainwashed by the big banks who don't want to be cut out of the transaction. P2P payment networks exist today in 3rd world countries. All they need is a smart phone with an app. Cashless in a tent as long as there is cell phone service but even they can operate offline.

M-Pesa


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

You can text money with Apple pay to friends. Never tried that myself but I assume there is no fee?

PayPal.me is also free to send money to friends. It's not intended for business transactions though, for that you pay a % but it also comes with a form of dispute resolution/mediation/insurance I suppose

Square seems to be what street vendors and small coffee shops use in US. I'm sure they take a % but you can tip just like a normal credit card

*The Austrian owner was in Canada so I think he's just thinking outside the box more than the dusty conventional hotels with desks and receptionists


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I have idea how Apple pay works or what the vendor fees are but we started seeing more of it during our travels over the past year.

We have also seen some amazing cell phone technology. While visiting in South Africa we spent time with a grad student who was working with a German company to bring cell phone based medicine to South Africa. My spouse, a nurse, was amazed at what they are doing and how advanced it is. Clearly if they can implement the use of this technology for medicine, P2P payment should be a snap. My guess is that the banks in NA and Europe will do everything to stop or slow this down because it will negatively impact their 
retail fees.


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## SW20 MR2 (Dec 18, 2010)

Fees to the merchant for Apple Pay are the same. The card issuing bank pays a fee to Apple for using the form factor, hence it comes out of their cut.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I meant for texting money to friends. Not sure you can text friends money from credit/debit or if you have to load Apple Pay Cash

Just checked and you can do either and Apple will show you the credit fee if you want to use credit.

So you can send someone money for free with Apple and Paypal.


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