# TD Direct Investing phone trouble



## james4beach

This is the first time I've ever heard this response on their phone line ... "Sorry for the inconvenience. We are currently experiencing technical difficulties. Please call back later. <click>"

Does anyone know how long they've been having this problem?


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## TomB19

I spent four hours on hold yesterday, across three phone calls, in an unsuccessful attempt to contact a resource at tddi.


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## fatcat

me 2, they had technical issues, i was only on hold for an hour since i value my blood pressure reading over my ability to journal shares from one side to the other

i was able to make all my online sales though


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## OnlyMyOpinion

Are you calling because you don't have online functionality?

*TD blames WebBroker outages on ‘unprecedented trading volume’* 
The video discussion on the link below alludes to herd mentality rushing to get into the overall market as well as bitcoin and pot stocks. 
Whatever happened to paying off your credit card debt after Christmas? 

_TD Bank’s WebBroker service faced fresh complaints of outages on Thursday morning, after the website experienced a service interruption earlier this week that affected some clients’ ability to manage their portfolios..._
https://www.bnn.ca/td-blames-webbroker-outages-on-unprecedented-trading-volume-1.958969

P.S. I had no trouble placing a large online sell of TDB8150 on Tuesday, just checked and see it filled today and cash balance showing in acc. Accessed on desktop via EasyWeb.


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## like_to_retire

I've been able to contribute to my TFSA online without incident, but I do see they have a popup message when you login saying:

_"Please note that we are currently experiencing technical issues affecting one or more features in WebBroker. Our technical support teams are working to restore full service as soon as possible. We apologize for the inconvenience"._

I also notice that for the last few days when you login, it opens on the Balances screen rather than go to the screen I have selected in my settings.

ltr


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## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> This is the first time I've ever heard this response on their phone line ... "Sorry for the inconvenience. We are currently experiencing technical difficulties. Please call back later. <click>"
> 
> Does anyone know how long they've been having this problem?




lol u didn't see this coming on?

the big green website was down this am, idk if it's back up yet as i've been working @ backup broker (a day like today is living proof why folks _need_ a backup broker)

back to the big green, their phone lines have been clogged for days, maybe weeks. Some wait times as long as one hour.

most call centre reps appear to be bearing up well (can u imagine the stress they're under?) One mentioned that 2017 was TDDI's record volume year for trades, ever, ever, ever. 

i'm so glad somebody is benefiting from the madness, i replied


street rumour is that current froth is mostly weed & crypto stocks. Me, i like chaos. There's nothing like having options & shorts but websites & phones are down so locked out of trading. Or at least appear to be locked out with communications down to a single tenuous connection. Still, i'm a resourceful biscuit, got a lot done this am.


ps backup broker is not taking phone calls either but at least their website has struggled through the day so far. Tomorrow who knows .each:


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## james4beach

I guess I should have seen it coming given the flakiness of their web site lately.

I want to do an EFT out to an external, non-TD bank. Usually this just takes a phone call and the money shows up the next morning. I think the on-line way to do this would be to first transfer the cash to a TD bank account, which is linked to PC/Simplii, and then initiate an EFT from Simplii.

How do the rest of you transfer cash from TDDI to a non-TD bank chequing account?


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## OptsyEagle

fatcat said:


> me 2, they had technical issues, i was only on hold for an hour since i value my blood pressure reading over my ability to journal shares from one side to the other
> 
> i was able to make all my online sales though


If you are moving shares from a cash or margin account to an RRSP or TFSA, you can do that online now. Just go into transfers and select "contributions in kind".


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## milhouse

Waited about 1.5hrs in queue myself on Tuesday. I just put the phone on speakerphone and did something else while I waited. 
Had to call in with a problem with one trade that wouldn't go through. All other online trades went through fine though Tuesday and Wednesday but I read others were having problems as indicated in the other posts.


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## pwm

It's not just TDDI. This is on the BMO website today:









It's that time of year.


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## hboy54

OptsyEagle said:


> If you are moving shares from a cash or margin account to an RRSP or TFSA, you can do that online now. Just go into transfers and select "contributions in kind".


Will margin to cash account work too?


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## TomB19

Does anyone know how I can turn off an account DRIP and turn on some individual DRIPs without calling in?

A branch?

It isn't urgent except that I'm leaving the country for an extended vacation in the next day and I want to sell a couple of positions so I need to turn off the DRIPs before the 26 of January.


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## OnlyMyOpinion

james4beach said:


> ... I want to do an EFT out to an external, non-TD bank. Usually this just takes a phone call and the money shows up the next morning. I think the on-line way to do this would be to first transfer the cash to a TD bank account, which is linked to PC/Simplii, and then initiate an EFT from Simplii. How do the rest of you transfer cash from TDDI to a non-TD bank chequing account?


I recently needed to open a non-TD acc and begin regular transfers to it from TD. 
I go online to TDDI and transfer to my TDCT chq acc. Then from TDCT, I email myself an interac e-transfer, open the email and accept the transfer into a CIBC chq acc. The money moves in 'real' time.


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## hboy54

hboy54 said:


> Will margin to cash account work too?


And no. They couldn't put the slight additional effort in to make this work in general. Dumb stuff like this reminds me how happy I am to be out of software development. 

Hboy54


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## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> I guess I should have seen it coming given the flakiness of their web site lately.
> 
> I want to do an EFT out to an external, non-TD bank. Usually this just takes a phone call and the money shows up the next morning. I think the on-line way to do this would be to first transfer the cash to a TD bank account, which is linked to PC/Simplii, and then initiate an EFT from Simplii.
> 
> How do the rest of you transfer cash from TDDI to a non-TD bank chequing account?



see how resourceful you are? if moving the funds from simplii to your final destination is will work for you, then you've got the solution.

folks w serious margin positions might want to start planning their rescue strategies, in case the buying mania turns into a selling rout. Markets always fall faster than they have risen. Best not to wait for those broker margin calls.

.


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## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> Does anyone know how I can turn off an account DRIP and turn on some individual DRIPs without calling in?
> 
> A branch?
> 
> It isn't urgent except that I'm leaving the country for an extended vacation in the next day and I want to sell a couple of positions so I need to turn off the DRIPs before the 26 of January.




bon voyage Tom, we'll miss you!

re the DRIPs, could you fax an instruction? do you have any TDDI fax number? your nearest call centre must be markham office, i might have a general fax number for them, if so i'll PM you.

your TD branch could also fax TDDI administrative back office, but since you say you're leaving the next day, i imagine the last thing you want to do is hang around waiting for service in a crowded bank branch.

TDDI has a snowbird 800 number, might possibly somewhere have international calling numbers for vacationing clients (?) (how are you going to manage your accounts while you are away?) (put em into hibernation mode?)


failing everything, a worst case scenario would be living with the DRIPs after all. Surely this would not be too unbearable?


de toute façon, have a lovely vacation, come home safe & sound


EDIT: oops i just re-read your post, you want to sell the securities as well. I'm pretty sure that the simple act of selling will automatically stop the DRIPs. Like, you won't receive any dividends whose X dates occur on or after the sell date; if no dividends, therefore no DRIPs. QED.


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## TomB19

Thank you, humble_pie. I really appreciate it.

I've been caught a couple of times with selling a position and then receiving a few stray shares that show up later. Tddi has fixed it for me by selling the shares without charging a commission.

You are totally correct, it's not a big deal. There are only two I plan to sell in February or March so that's a $20 problem, or so.

I feel pretty weird about the whole thing but look forward to some time away with my wife. She is fantastic and deserves a break. For my part, I'd pick up another contract and just keep working but I'm a fraidycat.


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## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> I've been caught a couple of times with selling a position and then receiving a few stray shares that show up later. Tddi has fixed it for me by selling the shares without charging a commission.



there are often dividends that arrive after we sell shares. This is because we were the owners of the shares on the X date, which occurred prior to the sell date, therefore the dividends belong to us.

dinna fret ye. If a DRIP or two shows up after you sell, TD will sell the morsel(s) without commish, exactly as they have done in the past for you.

IIRC you've been planning this wonderful getaway for some time. It's mexico, no? happy voyaging!

.


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## Eclectic12

humble_pie said:


> ... EDIT: oops i just re-read your post, you want to sell the securities as well. I'm pretty sure that the simple act of selling will automatically stop the DRIPs. Like, you won't receive any dividends whose X dates occur on or after the sell date; if no dividends, therefore no DRIPs. QED.


Depends ... if the sale was after the dividends/DRIP is on record but before the account has been credited, one may end up with a few orphan shares.

It was not a big deal for me as I was transferring to a TFSA, with contribution room to spare so it ended up being a second transfer to sweep the orphans into the TFSA.


Cheers


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## james4beach

humble_pie said:


> there are often dividends that arrive after we sell shares. This is because we were the owners of the shares on the X date, which occurred prior to the sell date, therefore the dividends belong to us.


As an aside, I think this spacing between ex div date and payout date is something that contributes to the idea that dividends are free (or money that gets generated out of nowhere). The stock price is instantly adjusted on the ex div date, but by the time the dividend shows up that adjustment feels like ancient history.

After I started investing in the five pack (all of them big div payers) I started feeling like these hundreds of dollars of free/excess money were showing up in my account. So I definitely understand this perception around dividends. The fact that each of those stock prices dropped on the ex date is easily forgotten.


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## like_to_retire

TD, RBC online brokerage outages continue amid ‘unprecedented’ trading volumes
___________________________________________

_"This is the worst pullback I've seen in the cannabis sector in well over a year. ... It's incredible that these are corresponding," he said.

Several marijuana companies took a major hit Thursday – with shares of Canada's biggest licensed producer Canopy Growth down as much as 19 per cent – after the Associated Press reported U.S. attorney general Jeff Sessions planned to rescind an Obama-era policy that allowed legalized pot to flourish in states south of the border._
___________________________________________

Surprise, surprise - a volatile, extremely risky sector of a product that is still illegal in Canada takes a hit. Sheesh.

ltr


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## james4beach

Worst pullback in cannabis sector? Oh please... it's only down about 10% today. If a one day move of +/- 10% freaks someone out, they absolutely should not be in this sector.


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## fatcat

OptsyEagle said:


> If you are moving shares from a cash or margin account to an RRSP or TFSA, you can do that online now. Just go into transfers and select "contributions in kind".


not that, but thanks for the tip oe


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## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Worst pullback in cannabis sector? Oh please... it's only down about 10% today.


We're waiting for it to go up but it seems to be taking forever!




james4beach said:


> If a one day move of +/- 10% freaks someone out, they absolutely should not be in this sector.


Now that you mention it, weed investors do seem a bit paranoid.


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## like_to_retire

TomB16 said:


> Now that you mention it, weed investors do seem a bit paranoid.


haha, good one.

ltr


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## james4beach

Unbelievable. Not only are the TD lines still jammed, but my other idea of transferring between TD and Simplii didn't work. I tried using the Simplii web site to add a new account under Transfers, but it fails and tells me to call their Customer Support. When I phone, it says that due to a snow storm on the east coast, the Simplii call center has closed.

I've got 12K trapped at TDDI that I can't get! Maybe I'll try OnlyMyOpinion's method with an Interac transfer.

The lesson I learned from this is to set up the TD <> Simplii transfer _before_ I might need the money.


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## Brainer

james:

Do you have a TD chequing or HISA account as well? That can work as a go-between.


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## james4beach

Brainer said:


> james:
> 
> Do you have a TD chequing or HISA account as well? That can work as a go-between.


I have a TD savings account, one of the types that allows 1 free withdrawal a month. But not a chequing account. If I need money urgently I can transfer from TDDI to the Savings account and withdraw cash at an ATM. That works fine.

What I'm really trying to figure out is how to transfer 12K from TDDI to PC/Simplii.

(TDDI is still not answering their phones today... yikes)


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## OnlyMyOpinion

TDDI transfer to TDCT, then TDCT via an interac e-transfer email to yourself, then choose to deposit it into your PC/Simplii account.
TDCT may charge $1.


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## james4beach

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> TDDI transfer to TDCT, then TDCT via an interac e-transfer email to yourself, then choose to deposit it into your PC/Simplii account.
> TDCT may charge $1.


The reason I didn't do that was there is a 3K daily limit and I'm trying to move 12K.

I did reach an agent today after 1.5 hours on hold. The money has been transferred.

They also said: if you install the TD program on your smart phone, then you get expedited phone access. Apparently people doing the call-in from the TD program are only waiting for a few minutes, instead of a few hours. I haven't tried this yet but it sounds suspicious.

One would assume that the bottleneck is the phone reps. Their phone reps can only handle a certain rate of calls, so every other caller queues up. But TD is telling me that using their smart phone app, you hardly wait at all. This means (I think) that smart phone users get to *skip the queue*.

Why should a kid on a smartphone trying to buy marijuana stocks get faster access to an agent than a retired guy on a land line?


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## scorpion_ca

james4beach said:


> Unbelievable. Not only are the TD lines still jammed, but my other idea of transferring between TD and Simplii didn't work. I tried using the Simplii web site to add a new account under Transfers, but it fails and tells me to call their Customer Support. When I phone, it says that due to a snow storm on the east coast, the Simplii call center has closed.
> 
> I've got 12K trapped at TDDI that I can't get! Maybe I'll try OnlyMyOpinion's method with an Interac transfer.
> 
> The lesson I learned from this is to set up the TD <> Simplii transfer _before_ I might need the money.


Have you tried pay bills option with Simplii instead of transfer option? I have used pay bill option and transferred some money to my TDDI TFSA yesterday morning and I can see it in my TD account this morning.


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## Spudd

scorpion_ca said:


> Have you tried pay bills option with Simplii instead of transfer option? I have used pay bill option and transferred some money to my TDDI TFSA yesterday morning and I can see it in my TD account this morning.


He wants the money out of TD, not into - I doubt they let you pay negative bills.


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## Ag Driver

Deleted


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## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> I did reach an agent today after 1.5 hours on hold. The money has been transferred.
> 
> They also said: if you install the TD program on your smart phone, then you get expedited phone access. Apparently people doing the call-in from the TD program are only waiting for a few minutes, instead of a few hours. I haven't tried this yet but it sounds suspicious.
> 
> One would assume that the bottleneck is the phone reps. Their phone reps can only handle a certain rate of calls, so every other caller queues up. But TD is telling me that using their smart phone app, you hardly wait at all. This means (I think) that smart phone users get to *skip the queue*.
> 
> Why should a kid on a smartphone trying to buy marijuana stocks get faster access to an agent than a retired guy on a land line?




this is really illuminating. Ag Driver confirms today that the above bypass using the TD phone app reaches a live green agent within "a ring or two."

what the story illuminates is how the big green is rating the next generation of high value clients. They're not the well-off retirees doing 15 ETF rebalancing trades a year.

they're a much younger generation that's swing trading fetish stocks on the run, via smart phones.


.


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## like_to_retire

I received an email this morning from TDDI that my transaction confirmation paperwork was now available on the eServices site for the sale of some TDB8150. 

I always sell all the HISA TDB8150 that I've purchased through the year before I buy a new rung on my TFSA GIC ladder.

As of a few minutes ago, that confirmation still isn't available.

TDDI is in a mess for sure.

ltr


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## james4beach

I asked the reps for more information and did some experiments. Here is what I can report:

* TD no longer gives priority to Presidents Account holders. Previously, we would get faster response times when phoning in. This all seems to be gone.

* Using the smartphone app, anyone who first logs into the phone now gets to jump the queue. I got through to an agent in about 4 minutes, far less than the wait on the regular phone number.

This is really strange. Why is TD turning its back on the high value clients, those with hundreds of K and huge amounts of business with TD? As a computer security professional I also have security concerns about their "smartphone" method. Smartphones are generally not very secure machines, but their new setup forces me to enter my login credentials on the smartphone if I want to get through to their phone reps. This means that I am exposing my login details. My preference would be to never enter my login details onto the insecure smartphone, but now I am forced to do this.

I'm angry at TD for turning their back on the traditional phone-in method. Very bad form.


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## fireseeker

Wow, James, that's really shocking. 
It makes me wonder what kind of valuable data TD is pulling out of your phone to make it worthwhile to piss off all their other customers by take smartphone app calls first.
What other reason could there be for the preferential treatment?


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## Ag Driver

Deleted


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## james4beach

On Android, the smartphone app requires access to a whole bunch of the device's data. Basically they can "mine" this data and sell it to marketers.

I immediately deleted the app to preserve my privacy. I guess I will install it whenever I want to phone into TD? This is stupid.


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## redsgomarching

james4beach said:


> On Android, the smartphone app requires access to a whole bunch of the device's data. Basically they can "mine" this data and sell it to marketers.
> 
> I immediately deleted the app to preserve my privacy. I guess I will install it whenever I want to phone into TD? This is stupid.


but this is what they pay $$$$$ to consultants for right? this is what customers want!!! 

i remember when i worked at the bank how many times i would see a memo or get reminded by my RVP that "this is what customers want" 

makes me wonder who da f*ck are they surveying? your phone is an extension of you. they want that data to turn into $$. that data is probably used by their marketing software to tailor offers etc to you so you can receive more calls, notifications, about all their banking products!!


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## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> * TD no longer gives priority to Presidents Account holders. Previously, we would get faster response times when phoning in. This all seems to be gone.
> 
> * Using the smartphone app, anyone who first logs into the phone now gets to jump the queue. I got through to an agent in about 4 minutes, far less than the wait on the regular phone number.


I remember many years ago when I first got a Presidents Account, the price of admission was a million, but then the limit kept dropping, and the access time using the special number also took longer. Now as you say, I suspect there's no special privilege for so called Presidents Account holders - it's basically meaningless now.

I have avoided the smartphone app for the very reason you site. I don't really want to enter my account number and password into a phone. I think I'd rather just wait on a regular landline.

ltr


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## james4beach

I'm tempted to send TD Direct Investing an invoice for my personal data they just mined from my phone. I'm not the kind of idiot who gives out valuable resources for free; I want compensation. The Android app is able to:

- take pictures and videos
- get your precise location via GPS
- read your contacts
- view Wi-Fi connections (this can help triangulate your exact location)

This stuff has value in the open market.


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## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> I'm tempted to send TD Direct Investing an invoice for my personal data they just mined from my phone..


James, they figure they've already compensated you by simply answering their phone.. :smile:

ltr


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## fatcat

james4beach said:


> I'm tempted to send TD Direct Investing an invoice for my personal data they just mined from my phone. I'm not the kind of idiot who gives out valuable resources for free; I want compensation. The Android app is able to:
> 
> - take pictures and videos
> - get your precise location via GPS
> - read your contacts
> - view Wi-Fi connections (this can help triangulate your exact location)
> 
> This stuff has value in the open market.


james, just get a decent password manager like 1password ... you enter your data once and it fills it in the app with all actual username and password data blocked for things like screen recorders or keystroke loggers

i have the opposite opinion and tend to view phones as more secure than pc's ... certainly ipads are much more secure


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## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> On Android, the [TD] smartphone app requires access to a whole bunch of the device's data. Basically they can "mine" this data and sell it to marketers.
> 
> I immediately deleted the app to preserve my privacy. I guess I will install it whenever I want to phone into TD? This is stupid.




jas4 what you have discovered is brilliant. It's not quite the total explanation for other brokers' phone outages, website crashes, etc. Those plus a large part of the excessive TD traffic are indeed related to market mania.

but something else appears to be putting the big green over the top. If i had to put a date to it, i'd say something new was rolled out sometime around the middle of december. That's when the late-night always-busy signals began.

you are saying that the TD is now giving top priority to clients who are willing to hand over their personal smartphone data in return?

you're saying that the phone reps are answering smartphone app calls first, then other calls if, as & when they can get around to them? you're saying the big green banking parent can mine this data & lease it out to their banking clients via their enterprise divisions?

my, what a juicy story. The TD website itself would not have to be sullied or besmirched by showing gross paid ads right on the website, wouldn't that be true? 

instead, the TD would be able to tell IP service providers which kinds of ads are likely to appeal to which kind of internet account, based on the profile groped - er, i mean mined - out of the TD phone app, isn't that right?

jas4 as it happens i don't believe that installing the TD app, using the app to phone, then uninstalling the app will prevent the data mining. I think that a fair amount of data can probably be instantly groped as soon as a big green client logs into his TDDI account via smartphone.

.


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## james4beach

humble_pie said:


> my, what a juicy story. The TD website itself would not have to be sullied or besmirched by showing gross paid ads right on the website, wouldn't that be true?
> 
> instead, the TD would be able to tell IP service providers which kinds of ads are likely to appeal to which kind of internet account, based on the profile groped - er, i mean mined - out of the TD phone app, isn't that right?
> 
> jas4 as it happens i don't believe that installing the TD app, using the app to phone, then uninstalling the app will prevent the data mining. I think that a fair amount of data can probably be instantly groped as soon as a big green client logs into his TDDI account via smartphone.


I agree that deleting the app doesn't prevent the mining.

It looks to me like TD has basically adopted a pay for use / pay for support model. The customer sells personal data from their smartphone toy, and TD compensates you by bothering to answer the phone.

If you don't have a smartphone toy or prefer to use traditional telephone, then you're S.O.L.


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## fatcat

humble_pie said:


> jas4 what you have discovered is brilliant. It's not quite the total explanation for other brokers' phone outages, website crashes, etc. Those plus a large part of the excessive TD traffic are indeed related to market mania.
> 
> but something else appears to be putting the big green over the top. If i had to put a date to it, i'd say something new was rolled out sometime around the middle of december. That's when the late-night always-busy signals began.
> 
> you are saying that the TD is now giving top priority to clients who are willing to hand over their personal smartphone data in return?
> 
> you're saying that the phone reps are answering smartphone app calls first, then other calls if, as & when they can get around to them? you're saying the big green banking parent can mine this data & lease it out to their banking clients via their enterprise divisions?
> 
> my, what a juicy story. The TD website itself would not have to be sullied or besmirched by showing gross paid ads right on the website, wouldn't that be true?
> 
> instead, the TD would be able to tell IP service providers which kinds of ads are likely to appeal to which kind of internet account, based on the profile groped - er, i mean mined - out of the TD phone app, isn't that right?
> 
> jas4 as it happens i don't believe that installing the TD app, using the app to phone, then uninstalling the app will prevent the data mining. I think that a fair amount of data can probably be instantly groped as soon as a big green client logs into his TDDI account via smartphone.
> 
> .


what ? what data are you talking about pie ? ... i use an iphone and i can turn off the apps access to all that data, location, contacts and camera all require permission and i can deny the app that ... unless it stops working as a result which i seriously doubt, it is perfectly usable without conveying any of that data

and relative to the other data it has on you like your sin and employment and credit data and your investments and likely net worth and address etc etc, what value does your location data have ?

do you seriously think they are going to mine your contacts for marketing or something ? there would be a huge uproar

you are letting james's simmering paranoia rub off on you

newsflash pie and james, if you use the internet and / or a phone you are trailing clouds of data wherever you go

this is your broker, not amazon or microsoft or something similar, it's already likely the most intimate commercial relationships you will ever have


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## james4beach

fatcat said:


> newsflash pie and james, if you use the internet and / or a phone you are trailing clouds of data wherever you go


And every additional device you connect up just exposes more of your data, not to mention more security concerns. I think it's disgusting that TD is requiring that I use a new toy just to get customer support -- a regular phone is all you should need for this.

Initially with all of this, I thought it was just a matter of high call volumes and some transient trouble -- just a bad day or two. Now I'm a bit more concerned that TD has overhauled some things about how it's handling customer support.

https://www.td.com/to-our-customers/resolving-your-problems/comments.jsp


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## james4beach

Again let me repeat, as someone who works in computer security (and who advises government) -- I do not think it's safe to log into online banking or brokerages from a smart phone. These devices are very easily compromised. In my opinion it is not safe to enter your log-in credentials on a smart phone.

This is my expertise, my field of work.


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## fatcat

james4beach said:


> And every additional device you connect up just exposes more of your data, not to mention more security concerns. I think it's disgusting that TD is requiring that I use a new toy just to get customer support -- a regular phone is all you should need for this.
> 
> Initially with all of this, I thought it was just a matter of high call volumes and some transient trouble -- just a bad day or two. Now I'm a bit more concerned that TD has overhauled some things about how it's handling customer support.
> 
> https://www.td.com/to-our-customers/resolving-your-problems/comments.jsp


well, we can agree that banking oversight in this country is toothless and worthless

and no doubt the big-green-machine wants to try and push its customers in directions that make it easier and cheaper to handle clients ... though i'm pretty sure they are going to get an earful over this last debacle

and if you want to make a phone call fine, but the data gathering piece of your complaint makes zero sense

your phone is sending off location data constantly, your credit or debit card company knows what you buy and where and when

the notion that td is somehow "gathering data" though your use of their app is just a stretch james

actually reading this thread makes me think its time to use my ipad to do all my banking perhaps and if that gets me through on the phone quicker then great

td won't prosper if they don't offer customers choices that they want


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## fatcat

james4beach said:


> Again let me repeat, as someone who works in computer security (and who advises government) -- I do not think it's safe to log into online banking or brokerages from a smart phone. These devices are very easily compromised. In my opinion it is not safe to enter your log-in credentials on a smart phone.
> 
> This is my expertise, my field of work.


i really disagree here james, i have been building and using pc's for 30 years and installing and using every kind of security and anti-malware app that comes down the pike and i think just the opposite, and here i will clarify, that i refer to the iphone not android, you are far less likely to get malware on your iphone than you are are on your mac and certainly on a windows computer

losing the phone and not having it protected is another thing altogether and that worries me much more

it's likely far easier to clone your phone and gather data from an actual call than it is to install malware on your phone

exactly as it is easier to steal credit card data when the waiter takes your card and copies the number versus online shopping


----------



## humble_pie

fatcat said:


> you are letting james's simmering paranoia rub off on you



i would certainly be happy if you would kindly stop with the "you-you-you" accusations ...


actually in this thread we aren't discussing security comparisons between iPhones & androids & tablets & PCs.

we're discussing what the big green has very recently innovated that has destroyed their normal phone response system. 

very quickly, agDriver & jas4 discovered - independently of each other - that logging in via TDDI phone app gets a phone call answered within seconds, while the rest of us are hanging on phones for an hour or more.

this is not quite normal. Something seems to be going on. Time will fill in more clues. Just saying.

.


----------



## fatcat

humble_pie said:


> i would certainly be happy if you would kindly stop with the "you-you-you" accusations ...
> 
> 
> actually in this thread we aren't discussing security comparisons between iPhones & androids & tablets & PCs.
> 
> we're discussing what the big green has very recently innovated that has destroyed their normal phone response system.
> 
> very quickly, agDriver & jas4 discovered - independently of each other - that logging in via TDDI phone app gets a phone call answered within seconds, while the rest of us are hanging on phones for an hour or more.
> 
> this is not quite normal. Something seems to be going on. Time will fill in more clues. Just saying.
> 
> .


got it pie, i will stop with the you-you-you accusations though i was really only intending to joke since i accuse james of being paranoid on a regular basis, i always think *i* am paranoid until i read james, but he is a big-boy and i am sure will keep himself safe

on the tddi app ... yes that was helpful to learn and i will try it next time i need to get through though i can't believe that td isn't going to implement a fix here soon since this is not good for business

i am not one who believes they are going to de-prioritize their older high net-worth customers just to get the attention of a bunch of hatchlings

though they may well be trying to move support in a direction that suits them better


----------



## TomB16

I've spent 6 more hours on hold, yesterday and today. Brutal.

Logging into the App did not connect me in the 20 minutes I waited, just now. I'm out. Gotta catch a plane...


----------



## TomB16

BTW, I've read most of the comments. I'm not convinced this is a nefarious plot. Don't be quick to assume malice when the problem can be explained by incompetence.

If this turns out to something rooted in evil, a strong response will be in order.


----------



## james4beach

Sorry to hear that TomB16. I think I had nearly 5 hours of hold yesterday plus the 1.5 hours today.

I reached the London call center. I wonder if one of the call centers is down. Perhaps weather is playing a role. London was around -30 C last night, Markham was also close to -30 C.


----------



## TomB19

The idea that a phone is secure is ridiculous. Ask anyone who has put BitCoin into a soft wallet and found it was taken within a few days how secure they feel about their mobile device.

iPhone generally a bit more secure than Android but still vulnerable.


----------



## TomB19

Thanks, James.

Well, I'm off to Mexico where I will have some real security issues to go along with the acute intestinal distress.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB16 said:


> BTW, I've read most of the comments. I'm not convinced this is a nefarious plot. Don't be quick to assume malice when the problem can be explained by incompetence.
> 
> If this turns out to something rooted in evil, a strong response will be in order.



ha did i say it was a nefarious plot? i did not. What i said was that the fax - the pure fax, sir, nothing but the fax - are not adding up. The fax are suggesting that the big green might be up to something.

the TD is not incompetent btw
neither are they rooted in evil imho

as i mentioned, we need more fax to patch into the puzzle.


----------



## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> I reached the London call center.



the london team is not new, although they're newish to TDDI canada. What they were was a london, ontario call centre for TD Ameritrade (the US brokerage partly owned by TD bank group) but somehow they lost TD ameritrade as a client, or the TD ameritrade call centre contract went to another firm ...

the london team was then patched into the regular call centre network for TDDI canada. Any i've ever reached were outstandingly good representatives. Very knowledgeable.


----------



## james4beach

I'm not convinced it's malice either, but I don't like this direction.

I also want to find out the technical mechanism they are using to pre-authenticate when calling into TDDI's toll free number. Somehow, they are passing on the authentication state through a traditional phone call. _This is highly unusual_. The smart phone ends up making a real phone call to 1-877-883-8125 but as soon as the phone is answered, TD's systems determine you are authenticated and good to go... you get straight into your account.

The question is, HOW are they connecting the authentication information over a regular phone call? There are several possible ways they might be doing this, but this kind of authentication is very difficult to do properly and safely. I am not aware of a known, secure protocol for accomplishing this. One possibility is that they are relying on caller IDs sent by the phones, first establishing a data connection to permit a specific caller ID within a small time window.

I'm tempted to try some experiments. I would record all data & voice that my smartphone is doing, call into TD, and figure out what method they're using to authenticate. For example I'd screw with the caller ID and see if that stops the authentication process.

My guess is that they've done something simplistic of this form. The problem is that a sophisticated attacker will scrutinize and might find a way into such systems. Caller ID can be spoofed, and smartphones can be emulated in virtual environments that TDDI will not be able to distinguish from real ones. It's very feasible for an attacker to fake the calling #.

*Example*

The criminal could load up their van with equipment and start driving through the streets of Toronto, Vancouver, or any other dense city. There are vulnerabilities in wifi networks (even ones with passwords) that allow people to intercept data communications. There are other ways to intercept data, as well. As the criminal drives through the streets of say Toronto or Vancouver, they could monitor data networks until they see the pattern of someone authenticating to TDDI's internet servers. The criminal does not have to break the encryption. They just need to learn that someone is a TDDI customer who is using the app toy. This will be visible by looking at connections to the TD servers... again, I emphasize that "secure logins" and "cryptography" are not broken at this stage. This type of attack is called _traffic analysis_.

The criminals will be aware that people are now incentivized to use the smart phone toys to call in. They can be selective with their scans, waiting for days with high market activity and high call volumes, which would be days with more connection attempts than usual.

Once the criminal discovers a home/office with a TDDI customer, they will focus in more. Using other known attacks, they would determine the phone number of the victim. For example they could use a Stingray machine, which has already been heavily used in the Ottawa area - it's a persistent problem, actually, and nobody knows who's using the Stingray.

OK, so now the attacker knows a TDDI customer and their smartphone toy's phone number. Now the attacker sets up camp within radio distance of the home or office. They wait for the next attempt by the victim to call TDDI using the smartphone toy. At this point attacker interferes with the victim's call, jams it, blocks it using one of many techniques. And they impersonate the victim's phone number and make the call themselves.

If my assumption about TDDI's mechanism is correct, now TDDI will automatically grants them access, no questions asked, and the criminal is off to the races. They could at this point buy huge amounts of an illiquid stock or option, selling to themselves on the other side of the bid/ask, and effectively drain the investment account dry.

Hopefully TD has thought through all of this.


----------



## humble_pie

fatcat said:


> i can't believe that td isn't going to implement a fix here soon since this is not good for business
> 
> i am not one who believes they are going to de-prioritize their older high net-worth customers just to get the attention of a bunch of hatchlings
> 
> though they may well be trying to move support in a direction that suits them better




yea something like that

the mid-december date rings a bell with me, though. It was exactly mid-december a year ago - 17 december 2016 - that they rolled out a big re-configuration of webBroker which no Safari user could access. It was pandemonium for TD clients using Safari. It was a month - well into january 2017 - before the big green managed to cure all the problems.

Safari clients could not log in except rarely. When they could succeed at logging in, they found most of the website in HTML. TD made exceptions that Safari clients could phone their orders in at web commish.

not known yet was that a handful of Windows users were having identical problems. I was one of the handful. When i asked for a bit of help, they said We are much too busy with the serious Safari problems, go away.

when i sent them screen shots of the HTML windows i was getting (on the rare occasions when i could succeed at logging in at all), they replied after 5 days with a robot e-mail that said: If. You. Need. A. New. Login. Password. Call. Our. Electronic. Support. Desk.

the bad thing was that it was late december & i had about 15 tax loss orders to place. Options can be traded almost up to the end of december each year, because options settle the following day, so the last week of december between Xmas & new year's is always a good time for harvesting option losses.

i managed, but it was excruciating. I could log in about 20% of the time. I taught myself to obtain quotes, advanced charts & to send orders through the HTML, because it actually is an interface, although not user friendly. Once a person gets the hang of HTML, it can be operated like the more user-friendly, slickly-designed webBroker interface we normally see.

weeks later, the TD admitted that it had heard that some windows users had the same HTML problem as all the Safari users. 

apparently the TD's reason for introducing a radically innovative new webBroker configuration in mid-december 2016 was that they were rushing to get it into operation before the heavy season would begin in january, with TFSAs to be followed by RRSPs to be followed by income tax month.

so i think it's possible that this year the TD introduced what they hoped would be a helpful new configuration with the phone system, also in mid december in order to get it up & running before rush season.

then it backfired a little. Then the cold weather bomb arrived. Oops.

.


----------



## GoldStone

james4beach said:


> This means (I think) that smart phone users get to *skip the queue*.


This would be *evil* and *infuriating*, if true. Big IF.

I hope it's not true.


----------



## GoldStone

James, re: phone call authentication

They probably use something like this:

https://www.trustid.com/solution/

I downloaded the white paper but haven't read it yet.


----------



## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> I'm not convinced it's malice either, but I don't like this direction.
> 
> I also want to find out the technical mechanism they are using to pre-authenticate when calling into TDDI's toll free number. Somehow, they are passing on the authentication state through a traditional phone call. _This is highly unusual_. The smart phone ends up making a real phone call to 1-877-883-8125 but as soon as the phone is answered, TD's systems determine you are authenticated and good to go... you get straight into your account.
> 
> The question is, HOW are they connecting the authentication information over a regular phone call? There are several possible ways they might be doing this, but this kind of authentication is very difficult to do properly and safely. I am not aware of a known, secure protocol for accomplishing this. One possibility is that they are relying on caller IDs sent by the phones, first establishing a data connection to permit a specific caller ID within a small time window.
> 
> I'm tempted to try some experiments. I would record all data & voice that my smartphone is doing, call into TD, and figure out what method they're using to authenticate. For example I'd screw with the caller ID and see if that stops the authentication process.
> 
> My guess is that they've done something simplistic of this form. The problem is that a sophisticated attacker will scrutinize and might find a way into such systems. Caller ID can be spoofed, and smartphones can be emulated in virtual environments that TDDI will not be able to distinguish from real ones. It's very feasible for an attacker to fake the calling #.
> 
> *Example*
> 
> The criminal could load up their van with equipment and start driving through the streets of Toronto, Vancouver, or any other dense city. There are vulnerabilities in wifi networks (even ones with passwords) that allow people to intercept data communications. There are other ways to intercept data, as well. As the criminal drives through the streets of say Toronto or Vancouver, they could monitor data networks until they see the pattern of someone authenticating to TDDI's internet servers. The criminal does not have to break the encryption. They just need to learn that someone is a TDDI customer who is using the app toy. This will be visible by looking at connections to the TD servers... again, I emphasize that "secure logins" and "cryptography" are not broken at this stage. This type of attack is called _traffic analysis_.
> 
> The criminals will be aware that people are now incentivized to use the smart phone toys to call in. They can be selective with their scans, waiting for days with high market activity and high call volumes, which would be days with more connection attempts than usual.
> 
> Once the criminal discovers a home/office with a TDDI customer, they will scrutinize the home or office some more. Using other known attacks, they would determine the phone number of the victim. For example they could use a Stingray machine, which has already been heavily used in the Ottawa area.
> 
> OK, so now the attacker knows a TDDI customer and their smartphone toy's phone number. Now the attacker sets up camp within radio distance of the home or office. They wait for the next attempt by the victim to call TDDI using the smartphone toy. At this point attacker interferes with the victim's call, jams it, blocks it using one of many techniques. And they impersonate the victim's phone number and make the call themselves.
> 
> TDDI automatically grants them access, no questions asked, and the criminal is off to the races. They could at this point buy huge amounts of a penny stock, selling to themselves on the other side of the bid/ask, and effectively drain the investment account dry.
> 
> Hopefully TD has thought through all of this.




jas4 you are priceless.

think how terrible it must be to be a company like the big green & to know that there are brilliant clients like jas4beach out there, always figuring out your business several kilometre ahead of yourself, always dancing rings around you ...

.


----------



## GoldStone

GoldStone said:


> James, re: phone call authentication
> 
> They probably use something like this:
> 
> https://www.trustid.com/solution/
> 
> I downloaded the white paper but haven't read it yet.


Well, the white paper posted at the link above doesn't explain how TRUSTID technology works.

The name of technology is: pre-answer caller authentication. To learn how it works, you have to download another white paper from here:

https://www.trustid.com/how-it-works/

But you have to register first.


----------



## pwm

Trying to get through today and no luck. The Winnipeg office voicemail says they are busy with other clients and to leave a message, then it says the mailbox is full. When I call 1-800-465-5463 and go through the call authentication, then regardless of which voicemail option I pick, I end up with a message that says "The offer you are calling about is no longer available" or something like that. Basically their voicemail system is screwed and there appears to be no way to talk to anyone here in the Winnipeg area. Need to de-register from my RRIFs so a phone call is required. 

Kind of frustrating. Good thing I can wait for a while. since it's not urgent.


----------



## DavidW

TomB16 said:


> BTW, I've read most of the comments. I'm not convinced this is a nefarious plot. Don't be quick to assume malice when the problem can be explained by incompetence.
> 
> If this turns out to something rooted in evil, a strong response will be in order.


Haven't followed the whole thread, or phoned support. I don't even have a cell phone. Having the above context though it is hard not to be pushed around a little bit by technology in todays world. It is very hard to tell these days when you are being blocked by permissions for overall safety and security, so someone can retain power and control, or to simply force you to spend more money. Having used computers since, well I was pretty happy when Windows 3.1 and Netscape arrived, there always seems to be something missing or something someone wants or wants changed. With all the changes over the years sometimes you are forced to stop using programs that one does wonder if the technology industry should be regulated as a necessary service like a utility - there were some good games I had to give up that were never replaced when computers went to 32bit.

Why does Webbroker not have a running balance on the activity page? Today's message said I have to wait until the 15th for December's statement, this will help delay doing T-1135 calculations though it would be nice to have that done.


----------



## stantistic

I understand that I am not the only one having ridiculous wait times reaching a representative by landline. Short of the nuclear option of transferring to another broker, are there meaningful actions I can take that would be of significant impact to TDDI? 

.


----------



## humble_pie

pwm said:


> Trying to get through today and no luck. The Winnipeg office voicemail says they are busy with other clients and to leave a message, then it says the mailbox is full. When I call 1-800-465-5463 and go through the call authentication, then regardless of which voicemail option I pick, I end up with a message that says "The offer you are calling about is no longer available" or something like that. Basically their voicemail system is screwed and there appears to be no way to talk to anyone here in the Winnipeg area. Need to de-register from my RRIFs so a phone call is required.
> 
> Kind of frustrating. Good thing I can wait for a while. since it's not urgent.




does the big green have a winnipeg office or call centre, though. If so, no one has ever heard about it ...

several phone numbers produce the above script about the offer being no longer available.

i reached a rep fast, no wait. He said management knows there's something wrong with the recent december/17 re-configuration of the phone system.

he said some clients are telling him that their first call using the TD mobile app often doesn't work - ie leads to the same long wait times as landlines. However, clients who hang up & then phone again on the mobile app usually get through quickly on the 2nd call, he said.

he remembered the reconfig of webBroker the prior year - also in december - which locked out safari users plus some windows users for weeks. 

we agreed that TD should not roll out these major modifications in december. Nor in the first 4 months of a new year, since these are critical months in finance. TFSA season followed by RRSP season followed by income tax season. We agreed they should roll out in june, since summertime is usually quiet for brokers.

we agreed that management is never going to pay any attention to suggestions like these.

.


----------



## james4beach

stantistic said:


> I understand that I am not the only one having ridiculous wait times reaching a representative by landline. Short of the nuclear option of transferring to another broker, are there meaningful actions I can take that would be of significant impact to TDDI?


At this point the only work-around I'm aware of is to install the TD app on your smartphone, log in through the app, and then use the Contact function to dial TDDI from the list of Contact numbers.

Currently, this side-steps the queue as long as you have authenticated on your smart phone.

Meaningful actions would be withdrawing money/assets. My first words when I connected were "please transfer out the full cash balance... since I can't reach you any more, I don't want that cash sitting around, inaccessible"


----------



## pwm

_does the big green have a winnipeg office or call centre, though. If so, no one has ever heard about it ..._

humble_pie, yes there is a local call centre. It's the number I've been calling since the days of GLIS, long before WebBroker.


----------



## humble_pie

pwm said:


> _does the big green have a winnipeg office or call centre, though. If so, no one has ever heard about it ..._
> 
> humble_pie, yes there is a local call centre. It's the number I've been calling since the days of GLIS, long before WebBroker.




might you be referring to one of the several local phone numbers that TD has in every canadian city? the thing is, these all connect to the national phone network. Phone calls are answered by representatives working in 4 call centres. Three located in ontario, one in quebec.

years ago there was a call centre in edmonton, but it was closed long time ago. 

.


----------



## TomB19

By the start of February, this needs to be fixed or I will be transferring out.

If they could be compelled, perhaps by court order, to turn off all DRIPs I could probably survive until the end of tax season without any of the services that require human interaction. It's almost nothing, anymore. Almost.

Any thoughts on the heir apparent? Who has the lower fees, between RBC and Scotia?


----------



## pwm

Got through today at 07:00 central time. I had to wait 25 minutes.


----------



## Ag Driver

Deleted


----------



## stantistic

*from PrefBlog*

Clearly TD Canada has sent a message to us that customer service is not a priority and is STILL not prepared to handle the growing volume of Traders out there. And so, I have begun the transfer of my funds from my Webbroker to another platform. This should be completed within the week. I have decided on Qtrade. And I will in the next while prepare for a complete withdraw of all of my money into another bank or credit union. This will need some thoughtful consideration. I understand that Banks, like any other business, want to keep their shareholders happy. However, a complete disregard of us, the customer, this past week is quite remarkable. With the billions that this company made in its last quarter, my loss of business will not affect them at all. But I know that I am going to feel much better knowing that TD Canada will never again disrespect me this way again. Shame!


----------



## TomB19

pwm said:


> Got through today at 07:00 central time. I had to wait 25 minutes.


We're you using the phone app?


----------



## like_to_retire

stantistic said:


> Clearly TD Canada has sent a message to us that customer service is not a priority and is STILL not prepared to handle the growing volume of Traders out there. And so, I have begun the transfer of my funds from my Webbroker to another platform. This should be completed within the week. I have decided on Qtrade. And I will in the next while prepare for a complete withdraw of all of my money into another bank or credit union. This will need some thoughtful consideration. I understand that Banks, like any other business, want to keep their shareholders happy. However, a complete disregard of us, the customer, this past week is quite remarkable. With the billions that this company made in its last quarter, my loss of business will not affect them at all. But I know that I am going to feel much better knowing that TD Canada will never again disrespect me this way again. Shame!


Have you tested out the response times of the other major banks? I wonder if they're much different, or is this specifically a TDDI issue.

It's quite a hassle to switch banks. Not something I would want to do. I guess I don't have a lot of interaction with the broker other than online, and that usually works fairly well, although I admit to liking TDDI's old online platform a lot better than the new one.

About the only time I ever phone them is to buy GIC's, which hopefully they get online some day. 

I can see how it would be unbearable if I had to phone them a lot.

ltr


----------



## Ag Driver

Deleted


----------



## pwm

TomB19 said:


> We're you using the phone app?


No. Landline.


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> Have you tested out the response times of the other major banks? I wonder if they're much different, or is this specifically a TDDI issue.


I have been trying to phone into RBC Direct Investing for 6 days now and no one answers the phone. All the recording says it that the wait is "longer then 1 hour". Thanks for narrowing that down so I can allocate my time. I actually selected that I needed to talk to a representative to do a trade (it is actually something else), since I hoped that would move it along quicker. It didn't. They could not care less.

I have now tried a fax in hopes that it will get the attention of what must be the last person that must work in their customer service department. Maybe he/she will put down their mop and attend to some customer needs. There seems to be nobody else but maybe the janitor will help me out.


----------



## newfoundlander61

Here is an interesting site to check for outages on many big name companies.

http://canadianoutages.com/


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> I have been trying to phone into RBC Direct Investing for 6 days now and no one answers the phone. All the recording says it that the wait is "longer then 1 hour". Thanks for narrowing that down so I can allocate my time. I actually selected that I needed to talk to a representative to do a trade (it is actually something else), since I hoped that would move it along quicker. It didn't. They could not care less.
> 
> I have now tried a fax in hopes that it will get the attention of what must be the last person that must work in their customer service department. Maybe he/she will put down their mop and attend to some customer needs. There seems to be nobody else but maybe the janitor will help me out.


Yeah, this is kinda what I figured. I think if someone decides to change all their holdings to a new bank, they might be in for a surprise if the reason is poor phone servicing.

ltr


----------



## fatcat

james4beach said:


> At this point the only work-around I'm aware of is to install the TD app on your smartphone, log in through the app, and then use the Contact function to dial TDDI from the list of Contact numbers.
> 
> Currently, this side-steps the queue as long as you have authenticated on your smart phone.
> 
> Meaningful actions would be withdrawing money/assets. My first words when I connected were "please transfer out the full cash balance... since I can't reach you any more, I don't want that cash sitting around, inaccessible"


didn't work for me ... first i just called the listed number on the app with my landline phone and got something about an expired offer

then i took the time to register for and use the app to initiate the call and now on hold yet again ...


----------



## james4beach

fatcat said:


> then i took the time to register for and use the app to initiate the call and now on hold yet again ...


Did you first log in through the application? I found that the speedier answer (a few mins when I tried) was only after I logged into the application and then called from its own interface/button.



OptsyEagle said:


> I have been trying to phone into RBC Direct Investing for 6 days now and no one answers the phone. All the recording says it that the wait is "longer then 1 hour".


Oh boy.

Very interesting that RBC DI has the same phone-in problem. TSX volume is not particularly high these days, with the exception of marijuana stocks (e.g. HMMJ being several times the daily XIU volume). Could marijuana stocks really be clogging up the entire Canadian brokerage industry?

Perhaps I was too quick to blame TD.


----------



## humble_pie

stantistic said:


> Clearly TD Canada has sent a message to us that customer service is not a priority and is STILL not prepared to handle the growing volume of Traders out there. And so, I have begun the transfer of my funds from my Webbroker to another platform. This should be completed within the week. I have decided on Qtrade. And I will in the next while prepare for a complete withdraw of all of my money into another bank or credit union. This will need some thoughtful consideration.
> 
> I understand that Banks, like any other business, want to keep their shareholders happy. However, a complete disregard of us, the customer, this past week is quite remarkable. With the billions that this company made in its last quarter, my loss of business will not affect them at all. But I know that I am going to feel much better knowing that TD Canada will never again disrespect me this way again. Shame!





dear Stantistic,


i was so sorry last summer when you turned up your nose at my date suggestion, that we'd go on a picnic. I was especially disappointed because you are far & away the cutest 80-plus-year-old in the forum. 

but i'm still daring to hope for a picnic with you someday. If you look over on Plugging's frugal cooking thread, you'll see she's thinking of hosting a rendez-vous of some cmffers when she leads her Girl Guide troupe on a camping trip next summer.

it's all still casual & unconfirmed, but maybe we could meet up at the camp. I hear some cmffers might be arriving on motorcycles. I bet you'd like that, Stan.

there's even a rumour that Plugging & Mukhang Pera are planning an outdoor camp banquet with 20 pounds of prime beef ribs roasted on racks over an open fire pit.


all this by way of saying, Stan, that IMHO you are taking the broker scene too personally. The brokers are not doing this on purpose, they're probably even more flabbergasted at the phone system collapse than the clients who are spending hours on Hold.

i don't see the brokers being disrespectful. On the contrary, i'm sympathetic to the representatives, it must be challenging & even unpleasant to work in a broker call centre these days, with 99% of the income phone calls all expressing various stages of indignation & outrage.

i see it as a mild kind of national emergency. Instead of thinking that the situation is normal, folks have to plan for a Great Ice Storm. The first order of business is to make sure there's enough cash in the house, also that there's a reliable network to send cash from broker to neighbourhood bank account or at least to neighbourhood ATM. 

then plan for what to do if broker websites go down. Put accounts in vacation mode. Folks who cannot withdraw non-automated RRIF or who cannot set up new DRIP plans are merely out of luck, a little delay is not going to kill them, _ceci n'est pas la fin du monde._

folks still planning to make 2017 RRSP contributions before the end of march might want to keep in mind that brokers could collapse again in heavy RRSP traffic near the end of march. IE consider making those RRSP contributions earlier than the march deadline.


.


----------



## stantistic

*Potentially a contributer*

Possible contributor to our problem.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bt-faces-call-centre-strike-threat-36lk88ftdwl


PS -merci for your kind words humble


----------



## TomB19

pwm said:


> No. Landline.


Thank you.

This is great news. It sounds like a short term problem, as opposed to an unacceptable policy change.


----------



## TomB19

james4beach said:


> Very interesting that RBC DI has the same phone-in problem. TSX volume is not particularly high these days, with the exception of marijuana stocks (e.g. HMMJ being several times the daily XIU volume). Could marijuana stocks really be clogging up the entire Canadian brokerage industry?
> 
> Perhaps I was too quick to blame TD.


Me too.

Weed stocks have hot boxed the phone system. Crazy.

Maybe time is moving really, really slow for the call centers.


----------



## hboy54

TomB19 said:


> Thank you.
> 
> This is great news. It sounds like a short term problem, as opposed to an unacceptable policy change.


Seems to me the most likely explanation is everyone is trying to do the brokerage equivalent of trying to take the 401 through Toronto at 4pm on a Friday. Not working this year. Did not work last year. Won't work next year.

Hboy54


----------



## TomB19

Good point. I spent plenty of time on the 401 when I lived in toronto.

Next year, i'll make a note to bring a quart sealer and roll of paper towel next year.

I'm super happy I don't have to change brokerages. I'm not in love with TD but they are ok and I don't want the trouble.

I wonder what was going on at the call centers? Were they just sitting around with no calls getting through or were they maxed out?


----------



## fatcat

got through after about a minute and a half wait using the app

so, using the app and calling in the afternoon is the way to do it i guess

btw, they told me they are implementing a system that will allow us to journal shares from one currency account to another online ... should be soon


----------



## DavidW

hboy54 said:


> Seems to me the most likely explanation is everyone is trying to do the brokerage equivalent of trying to take the 401 through Toronto at 4pm on a Friday. Not working this year. Did not work last year. Won't work next year.
> 
> Hboy54


Haven't driven on the 401 myself so I can't verify your assessment of the advanced rush to watch the hockey game.

Should be able to verify the score any time of the day. Used to be a lot easier to do that when I was more active with the changing thermometers.


----------



## GoldStone

fatcat said:


> btw, they told me they are implementing a system that will allow us to journal shares from one currency account to another online ... should be soon


That would be _stu·pen·dous_. Such as system would eliminate ~80% of my phone calls to them. Cannot happen soon enough.

Next after that, we need a system to control the DRIP flags. C'mon TDDI, let us do it. We can click the checkboxes ourselves.


----------



## hboy54

Deleted


----------



## pwm

I got an email from TD today with a survey of their service from my call on Jan 09. I mentioned in the text portion that the wait times were unacceptable and the voice mail system was broken. I rated the overall experience as poor, but nevertheless, I gave the service rep a 10 out of 10 because he was very polite and professional. Seemed fair.


----------



## fatcat

the reps are actually very good ...


----------



## DavidW

fatcat said:


> ... btw, they told me they are implementing a system that will allow us to journal shares from one currency account to another online ... should be soon


After I leveraged up my margin account I had a codicil done for my will with instructions regarding margin accounts. I don't expect to be anywhere near US estate tax thresholds.

Might be an idea to have an acknowledgement of will instructions in place. I don't think Alberta wills are currently registered.


----------



## Eclectic12

hboy54 said:


> Seems to me the most likely explanation is everyone is trying to do the brokerage equivalent of trying to take the 401 through Toronto at 4pm on a Friday. Not working this year. Did not work last year. Won't work next year ...


At the same time, Simplii Financial's IVR was allowing a few transactions then kicking one over to wait for a live agent. Their web site was down.

Makes me wonder if more is going on than just congestion.


Cheers


----------



## humble_pie

hboy54 said:


> Deleted



:biggrin: what hboy deleted was an old legacy number for the big green that apparently still works

i'm wondering whether the fast-answered calls - calls made via the phone app or via old legacy numbers - are being answered by a section of trainee employees? ie those who don't have their licenses yet ... possibly they are less busy during the general uproar ...

the only way to find out would be to place a direct buy/sell order with one of them. Trainees couldn't take such orders.

me i'm taming down my accounts. If we happen to undergo a black swan market plunge during times like the present, when all e-systems are already overloaded, the next things to go down will be the websites.

.


----------



## james4beach

Yeah I really wonder, if we can't even call into the brokerage during a strong market, what hope do we have of reaching someone during a weak or plummeting market?

Today was pretty rough. Several of Canada's largest caps fell really hard. ENB -2.1%, CNR -2.7%, CP -3.1%. And BCE is on a steady decline for several weeks, on higher volume each day. This is a really ugly pattern.

Even ZLB, the "low volatility" ETF, was down more than the TSX index, on 5x normal volume.


----------



## fatcat

the rep i talked to (after getting him within a minute on the app which i then promptly deleted) told me that this is one of the problems, they can't get enough licensed brokers to take the calls

they can't be trainee's pie or they would have to hand us off to licensed guys to get anything done and it probably be worse than it is now

as i posted above, soon we will be able to journal shares between currency accounts online ourselves which will be very nice for norbert


----------



## humble_pie

fatcat said:


> they can't be trainee's pie or they would have to hand us off to licensed guys to get anything done and it probably be worse than it is now
> 
> as i posted above, soon we will be able to journal shares between currency accounts online ourselves which will be very nice for norbert




idk, i believe that all of the tasks being mentioned in this thread - withdraw cash, stop or set up DRIPs, journal gambit shares - can be handled by trainees though.

so far, no one in this thread has mentioned that he specifically placed a buy/sell order via the phone app team. That would be the critical test.


btw cat, are you really gambitting so frequently? usually mature accounts settle down with their well-thought-out proportions of canadian, US & global securities. These spawn dividends & distributions in native CAD & USD, so the currency ratios tend to maintain themselves. IE frequent gambit trading becomes unnecessary.

TD is a relatively high cost broker for gambit trading. The coming client-managed online journal will not settle instantly, a client will not be able to journal the day he buys his gambit stock, he will have to wait the standard T + 2 days for settlement before he can initiate an online journal.

this means that clients doing instant gambits at the big green will still have to phone for the sell side. The commish will still be the flat $43.

online journalling is a nice step forward, but it won't reduce the cost or the speed or the complexity of gambit trades at the TD.


.


----------



## GoldStone

fatcat said:


> as i posted above, soon we will be able to journal shares between currency accounts online ourselves which will be very nice for norbert


I'm hopeful but I'm not holding my breath. It took them 3+ years to deliver on their promise to support US dollar RRSP accounts. Maybe 5 years? My memory is hazy. They kept saying "soon" for a few years.


----------



## fatcat

humble_pie said:


> idk, i believe that all of the tasks being mentioned in this thread - withdraw cash, stop or set up DRIPs, journal gambit shares - can be handled by trainees though.
> 
> so far, no one in this thread has mentioned that he specifically placed a buy/sell order via the phone app team. That would be the critical test.
> 
> 
> btw cat, are you really gambitting so frequently? usually mature accounts settle down with their well-thought-out proportions of canadian, US & global securities. These spawn dividends & distributions in native CAD & USD, so the currency ratios tend to maintain themselves. IE frequent gambit trading becomes unnecessary.
> 
> TD is a relatively high cost broker for gambit trading. The coming client-managed online journal will not settle instantly, a client will not be able to journal the day he buys his gambit stock, he will have to wait the standard T + 2 days for settlement before he can initiate an online journal.
> 
> this means that clients doing instant gambits at the big green will still have to phone for the buy side. The commish will still be the flat $43.
> 
> online journalling is a nice step forward, but it won't reduce the cost or the speed or the complexity of gambit trades at the TD.
> 
> 
> .


pie, no i do not do actual-gambits frequently, only occasionally 

what i do more often is sell a dual-listed stock into the other currency and they tend to just journal it over and sell it for me right away and charge me the 9.95

and so i was sloppy in my choice of words, i am soft-gambitting not actual gambitting, this procedure will be more easily doable whereas, as you point out actual gambitting hasn't changed much in terms of procedure and cost


----------



## humble_pie

fatcat said:


> what i do more often is sell a dual-listed stock into the other currency and they tend to just journal it over and sell it for me right away and charge me the 9.95 ... i am soft-gambitting not actual gambitting



you're right, what you call soft gambitting is not the same procedure. You already own the stock, so licensed reps can journal shares instantly. If while they're journalling they undertake to also sell the shares at web commish for you, tant mieux!

but a classic gambit is a classic arbitrage. Folks buy & sell in 2 different markets as close together in time as they can, in order to obtain some benefit from the pricing. 

i'm told that the big green wll still impose T+2 settlement on the buy side. This will prevent selling or journalling the stock into the new currency until the prescribed settlement date.


.


----------



## james4beach

I'm not holding my breath either. Sure, it would be useful (if they actually do it) and along with a ShoGam, I could do a full gambit without any phone rep for just 2 x $9.99. I'll believe it when I see it.

However, if a genie granted me one TDDI wish, I'd wish for them to answer the phones -- higher priority than adding new features.


----------



## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> I'm not holding my breath either. Sure, it would be useful (if they actually do it) and along with a ShoGam, I could do a full gambit without any phone rep for just 2 x $9.99. I'll believe it when I see it.



lol wait & see if they design an app that will allow clients to journal over to short accounts. I can see cash & margin but wouldn't bet the farm they'll accommodate the shoGam.

even with an eventual phone call, the shoGam is a neat gambit pair. The good thing about the shoGam final journal of shares is that there's no hurry to do it. The only thing to watch out for is looming dividend X dates, otherwise the short position can run on for days, even weeks.

.


----------



## james4beach

I just phoned into TDDI now, again using the mobile app. I got through after about 30 seconds -- skips the queue. Previously I tried phoning the regular way and didn't get anywhere after 30 minutes.

So it looks like the mobile application _still_ lets you bypass the queue. For anyone who wants to reach them, use the mobile application. If you don't have a smart phone, then tough beans for you.

Here's what the agent said about the load on the call center. He says it's mostly *marijuana and bitcoin* stocks. "The last time anything like this happened was probably the dot com era... a lot of new investors, unsure what to do, first time use... when we first started seeing these volumes, the TSX people had to confirm for us that the volume data we're seeing isn't a mistake"

That was my suspicion. I knew there was a link between the manias in bitcoin & marijuana, and that's what the brokerage is experiencing too. Tons of new accounts, small first-time investors. I know from my Bay Street friends that institutions are not active in marijuana stocks, so those millions of shares of volume are all retail investors!


----------



## hboy54

james4beach said:


> That was my suspicion. I knew there was a link between the manias in bitcoin & marijuana, and that's what the brokerage is experiencing too. Tons of new accounts, small first-time investors. I know from my Bay Street friends that institutions are not active in marijuana stocks, so those millions of shares of volume are all retail investors!


Sheep let me introduce you to shears?

Hboy54


----------



## james4beach

If anyone has any aspirations of phoning into their credit card company, I suggest you phone them *now* instead of waiting. Because (based on what an agent just told me) there's a flood of people starting to get charged with bitcoin cash advance fees, and they're all phoning in.

My guess is that this evening, the credit card phone lines will be jammed with bitcoin speculators. Just adding to the pile of bitcoin and marijuana speculators jamming the brokerage phone lines all of January.

I seriously hope they jack up interest rates soon and put an end to all this manic nonsense.


----------



## gardner

Just got off the TDDI phone line. It seems the menus are all different now and there's no explicit "I want to just talk to someone" option -- you have to pick "talk broker", enter your account number and then you get to choose "talk to a broker" -- the wait time just now was over 1/2 hour just to ask for a journal from one account to another. Definitely a step back from what it used to be. When did they re-jig the phone menus?


----------



## humble_pie

the TD has set up a faster, smarter operation for securities transfer from other brokers & for new account applications. 

these can be done by phone now. They have a dedicated green team who'll walk clients & would-be new clients through the process. No need to go to a TD branch or sign pieces of paper.

transfer clients can be done with any communication device. New account applications need a smartphone or scanning capabiity, since the regulations for new accounts require a photo ID.


----------



## james4beach

gardner said:


> Just got off the TDDI phone line. It seems the menus are all different now and there's no explicit "I want to just talk to someone" option -- you have to pick "talk broker", enter your account number and then you get to choose "talk to a broker" -- the wait time just now was over 1/2 hour just to ask for a journal from one account to another. Definitely a step back from what it used to be. When did they re-jig the phone menus?


I wonder what will happen if you keep hammering 0 or #. That's sometimes a technique I use when I've had enough of the voice prompts.


----------



## kcowan

humble_pie said:


> the TD has set up a faster, smarter operation for securities transfer from other brokers & for new account applications.
> 
> these can be done by phone now. They have a dedicated green team who'll walk clients & would-be new clients through the process. No need to go to a TD branch or sign pieces of paper.
> 
> transfer clients can be done with any communication device. New account applications need a smartphone or scanning capabiity, since the regulations for new accounts require a photo ID.


12 years ago, it was painful. Now I probably would choose another discount broker...


----------



## james4beach

TD's phone system trouble at the start of the year made me look into alternate ways to withdraw money from TDDI to an external bank account. I'll share what I found:

Normally I would phone in and request a transfer out to my externally linked bank account (EFT). This worked fine as long as I could reach an agent. But when I couldn't reach an agent I was left without a way to make large withdrawals. I *can* transfer from TDDI to my TD bank account.

Because TD isn't my main bank for day-to-day banking, I only keep a "Savings" account with them, with no monthly fee. Once the cash is in the TD Savings account, the next question is how to transfer large amounts to an external bank. Interac email transfers have $ maximums and incur a fee. There are no cheques for this account type either.

The solution I found is to link the TD Savings account to Simplii. This can be done by going into your Savings account in EasyWeb, and printing a "Direct deposit form" which can be found in the upper right corner. You need to print this PDF file and take it to a TD branch, where they will stamp it. This can then be mailed into Simplii, to link the accounts. So *it's possible to link a non-chequing account* (no VOID cheque needed).

With the two accounts linked in Simplii, now I can use CIBC/Simplii to pull arbitrarily large amounts out of my TD Savings account (one step from TDDI). There are zero fees as long as I only make one withdrawal a month.

Over the years I've come to use Simplii as a tool to shuffle money between various accounts at credit unions and banks. Even better now that I see it's possible to transfer in/out of both chequing and savings accounts.


----------



## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> TD's phone system trouble at the start of the year made me look into alternate ways to withdraw money from TDDI to an external bank account. I'll share what I found:
> 
> Normally I would phone in and request a transfer out to my externally linked bank account (EFT). This worked fine as long as I could reach an agent. But when I couldn't reach an agent I was left without a way to make large withdrawals. I *can* transfer from TDDI to my TD bank account.
> 
> Because TD isn't my main bank for day-to-day banking, I only keep a "Savings" account with them, with no monthly fee. Once the cash is in the TD Savings account, the next question is how to transfer large amounts to an external bank. Interac email transfers have $ maximums and incur a fee. There are no cheques for this account type either.
> 
> The solution I found is to link the TD Savings account to Simplii. This can be done by going into your Savings account in EasyWeb, and printing a "Direct deposit form" which can be found in the upper right corner. You need to print this PDF file and take it to a TD branch, where they will stamp it. This can then be mailed into Simplii, to link the accounts. So *it's possible to link a non-chequing account* (no VOID cheque needed).
> 
> With the two accounts linked in Simplii, now I can use CIBC/Simplii to pull arbitrarily large amounts out of my TD Savings account (one step from TDDI). There are zero fees as long as I only make one withdrawal a month.
> 
> Over the years I've come to use Simplii as a tool to shuffle money between various accounts at credit unions and banks. Even better now that I see it's possible to transfer in/out of both chequing and savings accounts.




can't you do a bill payment out of your TD bank savings account? as i recall the big green has a very high ceiling, something like $100k, whereas many institutions cap e-transfers at $10k.


----------



## james4beach

humble_pie said:


> can't you do a bill payment out of your TD bank savings account? as i recall the big green has a very high ceiling, something like $100k, whereas many institutions cap e-transfers at $10k.


A bill payment going out from a TD bank account can go to various other TD bank account #s and to approved bill payment companies. Other than the bill payment system, money can also be sent out with
- interac email money transfer
- to people who have "Visa Direct" or a Visa Debit Card

However because my destination bank doesn't use the Visa Debit Card, I think the only mechanism TD supports is the interac email transfer. I phoned and asked about bill payments and they said this cannot be done to personal accounts at other banks.


----------



## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> I phoned and asked about bill payments and they said this cannot be done to personal accounts at other banks.




how strange. I'm able to "bill payment" to my own accounts at other financial institutions out of TD account all the time. I'm only referring to CAD payments to canadian financial institutions. 

i inquired once about USD bill payments & was told that these also work when the destination account is also USD, although there is a small transaction fee. I didn't try this. If you are speaking here about "bill payment" in USD to an american bank located in the US, i could imagine that there could be difficulties. But keep in mind that most cmffers will not be in these circumstances, ie they're not actively financing in canada while living, working & spending in the US!

if you're trying to do ordinary CAD bill payments, a huge variety of payee destinations should be available. Personal accounts at all other canadian chartered banks should be available, for example. For your TD savings account, what kind of "bill payment" screen shows up?

might i add that there has been a noticeable decline in accuracy among many TD reps in recent years. All other institutions as well, i don't mean to single out the big green. My charitable guess is that there's just too much information nowadays for many reps with less than 2 years experience to be able to process it all. It's possible that you were not accurately advised.


.


----------



## kcowan

I used bill payment to transfer money to my Canaccord investment accounts for many years. Don't ask TD. Ask the receiving bank.


----------



## humble_pie

kcowan said:


> I used bill payment to transfer money to my Canaccord investment accounts for many years. Don't ask TD. Ask the receiving bank.



yes, exactly

canaccord must be on the vast, almost limitless TD list of recognized payees, though. As must every legitimate canadian financial institution in the nation. 

i question kcowan re one tiny detail though. It's TD personnel who will know who is on the vast/limitless list of recognized payees. I wouldn't count on front-line representatives of another financial institution to know whether their organism is on TD's payee list or not (the rep would need access to a data base showing every institution with whom his own particular institution maintained bill payment networking) (as mentioned, front-line reps have become careless) (there are significant numbers who will not bother to consult a d-base)

.


----------



## james4beach

humble_pie said:


> how strange. I'm able to "bill payment" to my own accounts at other financial institutions out of TD account all the time. I'm only referring to CAD payments to canadian financial institutions.
> . . .
> if you're trying to do ordinary CAD bill payments, a huge variety of payee destinations should be available. Personal accounts at all other canadian chartered banks should be available, for example. For your TD savings account, what kind of "bill payment" screen shows up?


I'm also talking about CAD payments to other Canadian banks. My understanding is that bill payments can be used to send money to credit cards, investment brokers and a variety of other billing destinations but I have never seen regular bank accounts among them. Investment brokers like Canaccord, iTrade, all do show up but they are not regular bank accounts.

If regular bank accounts are supported, they would show up in the search screen for the payee.

First attempt, I'm looking for Scotiabank. I tried a variety of searches for Scotia and BNS, and this screen shot shows the Scotiabank results. You can see various credit accounts here, but no general bank account.

humble_pie, are you doing a bill payment to a regular big 5 account, and if so, what does your "bill payee" show up as?









Second attempt, trying CIBC. Again the results show credit accounts, not a bank account category.









If sending to personal accounts at regular bank accounts was supported, I would think an appropriate bill payee would show up here.


----------



## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> I'm also talking about CAD payments to other Canadian banks. My understanding is that bill payments can be used to send money to credit cards, investment brokers and a variety of other billing destinations but I have never seen regular bank accounts among them. Investment brokers like Canaccord, iTrade, all do show up but they are not regular bank accounts.


afaik all payees including brokers like Canaccord etc will need specific working bank account numbers, for a transfer to work






> First attempt, I'm looking for Scotiabank. I tried a variety of searches for Scotia and BNS, and this screen shot shows the Scotiabank results. You can see various credit accounts here, but no general bank account.
> 
> View attachment 18852



one doesn't really want any kind of "general bank account."

if i were in your place, i'd try the one called Scotiabank Scotialine.

what happens next? with any luck it should ask you to enter a specific Scotiabank account number. That'll be your own account number.

i haven't yet looked at my own bill payment profile. As i recall, they were all super easy to set up. Good luck.

.


----------



## james4beach

But Scotialine is a line of credit system, their personal lines of credit. I don't see why a regular bank account # would work in there... everything that shows up in bill payments is either a brokerage account or credit account (line of credit, mortgage, credit card, business credit lines)


----------



## kcowan

james4beach said:


> Investment brokers like Canaccord, iTrade, all do show up but they are not regular bank accounts..


The account is your investment account number.


----------



## humble_pie

jas4 it appears you may be right. One cannot send $$ via Bill Payment from TD bank account to one's own personal savings or chequing account at another canadian bank. Evidently $$ can only be sent to a business account.

other banks reportedly work the same, save & except for the special bank accounts that are built onto BMO Investorline cash & margin accounts (the BOMIL bank accounts are unique among the big bank brokers) (these do permit easy bill payments to a self-owned bank account at another canadian bank or financial institution)

my immediate reaction to the TD restriction is that it looks like a good e-theft prevention measure. If bill payments to oneself or to 3rd party private accounts at another financial institution were possible, these would be the first mechanism that an e-thief who had hacked the account would use. Not allowing such bill payments in the first place does block that potential theft.

so how am i getting away with it? the TD does allow bill payments to business accounts. All my accounts in the bill payment network are business accounts.

what this boils down to is that your Simplii hub seems to be an excellent transfer mechanism, if a bit arduous. I imagine tangerine would work the same way.


----------



## kcowan

I am a little obsolete, but I used to bill pay to my Waterhouse account and then transfer the money anywhere.


----------



## james4beach

Those of you who need to get through to brokerage phone reps (any of them, not just TD) at the end of the year or January... you might consider calling a bit earlier this year.

From what I can tell, last year's phone lines getting jammed was a direct result of investment insanity in marijuana and crypto currency stocks. There were many first time investors opening new accounts and seeking assistance in buying these garbage stocks, but it congested the phone systems. The marijuana stocks alone account for a huge amount of Canadian trading volume... it's pure insanity.

If the brokerages became unreachable on the way up during greed, imagine how unreachable they will become on the way down with the added fear of losing money. If we get huge liquidation in the marijuana & crypto stocks, perhaps all these people will phone back again.

Anyway, just food for thought.


----------



## james4beach

By the way, I was able to learn from a brokerage rep tonight that their lines were in fact busy today as a result of the massive volume on APHA (a marijuana stock). So this effect is still happening. He said that they are prepared for that kind of volume, from the lesson a year ago.

I still have a feeling that if a few marijuana stocks start crashing, the Canadian brokerages will become unreachable.


----------



## james4beach

TDDI's web interface is acting up today, certain parts of the page aren't loading. It might be due to heavy loads from APHA crashing and retail clients panicking.


----------



## stantistic

*Trouble again*

​I want to withdraw some money from my account. I have been told the only way I can do that is by contacting a “live representative”.
Beginning last Monday I have been unable to do so.
When I phone in, establish my identity, the mechanical voice tells me to “wait for the next available representative” but that representative never calls and I end up just listening to recorded music with an occasional sales pitch.

What to do?


----------



## like_to_retire

I am confused that you're not able to use TD WebBroker to transfer cash from any of your TDDI accounts to your TD Bank account?

Regardless, yeah for sure, the TDDI phone system requires a lengthy wait until a live representative answers the dang phone. I use the Presidents account number and it seems to work a bit quicker, but they never seem to have enough staff to man the phones.

Put your phone on speaker and do other things while you wait - they'll eventually get to you. Sigh............

ltr


----------



## Money172375

like_to_retire said:


> I am confused that you're not able to use TD WebBroker to transfer cash from any of your TDDI accounts to your TD Bank account?
> 
> Regardless, yeah for sure, the TDDI phone system requires a lengthy wait until a live representative answers the dang phone. I use the Presidents account number and it seems to work a bit quicker, but they never seem to have enough staff to man the phones.
> 
> Put your phone on speaker and do other things while you wait - they'll eventually get to you. Sigh............
> 
> ltr


Not sure if everyone knows this.......if you call TD or TDDI, the best way to do it, is through the TD app on your mobile phone. Look for the “contact us”. It will ask you to enter your login credentials and dial the call for you. This puts you in a priority line where you are already authenticated. Called in 2 or 3 times this year to set up some DRIPs....no wait at all.


----------



## stantistic

Don't tell anyone ltr, but almost all my banking is done via the credit union system, and TDDI was only for the discount brokerage.


----------



## stantistic

stantistic said:


> Don't tell anyone ltr, but almost all my banking is done via the credit union system, and TDDI was only for the discount brokerage.


----------



## stantistic

Rest Easy TDDI 
On March 3rd, 4th, and 5th I attempted to talk by phone with a "live representative" which I had to do in order to get done what I needed to do. I tried, on average, once every half hour, but I failed because no representative answered the phone. However I had ample opportunity to hear the tape recording "Your message is important to us." 
Rest easy! I will not call any more with my message. Some other brokerage will get it.


----------



## james4beach

Which brokerage will you find which still has fully staffed call centers?

As far as I can tell, there's limited phone availability across ALL banks and brokerages right now. This is basically due to call centers being shut down since they are risky place for virus spread.


----------



## Money172375

Have you tried the method I mentioned in post #134? Many businesses, and especially call centres, which appear fully operational, have taken drastic steps to ensure employee health. For example, I’ve heard large teams have been split in two.....one team works form2 weeks while the other team remains at home for 2 weeks. They then plan to rotate so there’s always a healthy team ready to go.


----------



## stantistic

The Financial Post has a good article on this problem.








Retail investors say they're losing thousands as brokerages struggle with record traffic due to coronavirus panic


Multiple outages and apparent bugs in systems buckling under a huge spike in trading volume costing investors 'sometimes six-digit losses'




business.financialpost.com


----------



## goldman

Has anyone been able to get through by phone to TDDI lately to do business? 

I've heard from family members, interested in buying GICs they've not been able to get through to place an order for many days now. If they finally get through the call gets hung up or they're told to call in later.

The replies on Twitter to @TD_Canada look like it's a complete mess.


----------



## Money172375

Have you tried the suggestion in post # 134. I’ve had good success with it.

i know they are in the process of moving 9000 call centres employees to work-from-home. Apparently they are doing (or did) move a few hundred each day. I know the call centres are historically staffed for peak efficiency and things are measured down to the second. A Small increased in calls (say 10%) would wreak havoc with their staffing models. I suspect call volumes are way beyond that though.


----------



## james4beach

Are they really getting elevated calls, or is this purely due to staff availability? The last I heard from a friend (a couple days ago), they could not get through, period. The phone system just hung up on them.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Are they really getting elevated calls, or is this purely due to staff availability? The last I heard from a friend (a couple days ago), they could not get through, period. The phone system just hung up on them.


TDDI is probably seeing a small lift in calls due to volatility. The retail side at tdct would be way up considering up to half the branches are closed.

i would suspect moving the employees to work from home was a large effort to get calls forwarded to their homes. Call centre operations are quite sophisticated. My sources say the sheer numbers are also causing issues with the lines. Wouldn’t be surprised if TDDI employees have been moved over to support the retail branch side given the volumes.

i tried reaching calling tddi today. Pre recorded message saying high call volumes....got disconnected. Much like hospitals and army discussion that was had.....businesses such as banks and grocery stores are not well designed for surge demand.


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## james4beach

Today I reached a TDDI employee and they really knew what they were talking about. This was refreshing! Over the last 10 years, I've noticed a steady deterioration in the skill level of the phone agents.

I also get the sense that the brokerage phone lines get jammed up when there is a popular mania of new investors. It happened during the first bitcoin and pot stock craze and I think in recent months, there's been a surge of first time investors. Everyone is trying to buy heavily hyped tech stocks, get in the hot stocks their friends are talking about (TSLA etc) and maybe gamble in options too.


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## Money172375

Buy when there’s blood in the streets.

start thinking about selling when call volumes spike. 

When I worked at TDAM, we watched this a lot. Redemptions would spike when markets dropped. Deposits rose when markets hit all time highs. 

working at a branch, I watched this happen all the time. You’d have diligent, low education savers come in to ask for a ”stock” account, because their neighbour said they should buy gold Corp, or Wi-lan, or xyz. 

I also felt the same way in my last few years doing mortgages.......too many people, who had no business doing it, buying rental properties. Just felt like they did t know what they were getting into. It was a warning sign to me when seniors, with no experience, started buying rental properties. While nobody could predict the pandemic, I hope these people are managing ok as it appears rents are way down in some markets.









Toronto's languishing condos put mom-and-pop investors in a bind - BNN Bloomberg


Merilee Wright doesn’t even officially own her condo in downtown Toronto yet and she’s already trying to sell it.




www.bnnbloomberg.ca


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## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Buy when there’s blood in the streets.
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toronto's languishing condos put mom-and-pop investors in a bind - BNN Bloomberg
> 
> 
> Merilee Wright doesn’t even officially own her condo in downtown Toronto yet and she’s already trying to sell it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bnnbloomberg.ca


 ... the irony within ^...



> _Merilee Wright doesn’t even officially own her condo in downtown Toronto yet and she’s already trying to sell it.
> 
> *The 56-year-old former bank executive *agreed to buy the two-bedroom unit before construction got underway in 2018, a time when surging valuations and rising rents made Toronto condos seem like a perfect investment. Now, with the COVID-19 pandemic sending rents plunging and spurring an exodus from dense downtown housing, the unit is complete and Wright faces a choice between paying out more on her mortgage than she’d collect in rent each month, or bailing out of her investment at a discount. .._.


I think she'll do fine given all the bonuses she accumulated over the years.


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