# I never 'haggle' over a price



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I do however 'negotiate' all the time. Often I even negotiate a better price even it is for an item that most people would not think of trying to negotiate over at all. I see every price as being 'negotiable' if I choose to make it so.

Most people I think view 'haggling' over a price as being adversarial. While that is obviously true to a degree, it all depends on your approach. Sun Tzu in his Art of War wrote that, "_The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." _That is how I like to approach 'negotiating' a price. 

Here is an example of how to 'win the war' without fighting a battle when it comes to negotiating a price.

Let's say you see a necklace in a jewellery store window that you would like to buy for your wife. It is $3000. You go in and someone asks, 'can I help you.' You say, 'yes, can I see that necklace in the window' and they bring it to you, display it, start telling you, 'it's 14k gold with x number of diamonds that have a total weight of Y karats, etc.'

You say, 'it's beautiful, my wife would love it.' They sense a sale. Then you ask, 'what is the price' and they tell you. You smile but with a hint of sadness in your expression and say, 'ah yes, it's beautiful,I can see that it is worth every penny of that. Unfortunately, that's more than I can afford to spend.' No sale.

Now I am not talking about you dealing with someone who does not have the authority to offer a discount. So this is not in some big chain store where really you are just talking to a sales clerk who can't do anything and gets paid by the hour anyway. You're in an independent store and probably dealing with the owner.

So s/he says, 'well what budget did you have in mind?' You reply, 'my budget is less than that but really it was only this necklace I was interested in.' So they can't try to show you some lesser item with that response and they can't get an idea of how much you are willing to pay. Then you say, 'it really is beautiful, I wish I could afford it for my wife, she would love it.' At this point, the seller has two choices only. You have ended the conversation and s/he can either let you walk or offer you a better price. 

Put yourself in the seller's shoes. They can see and hear that you really like it and want to buy it. It is a sale that is 'theirs to lose'. You aren't insulting them with some lowball offer, you aren't questioning the value of their goods, you aren't fighting with them in any way. So the seller says, 'well, I could perhaps let you have it for $2800.' They have to make you an offer or let you walk.

You reply while stroking the necklace and looking at it, 'thank you, it's beautiful and worth every penny. But unfortunately, it's still more than I can afford to spend.' You still have not volunteered any number to them that you would be willing to pay. You are giving them nothing to 'work with' in trying to read you. They've tried asking you what your budget is but you avoided that and if they ask you again, you will just avoid it again by saying something like, 'well, it was a bit less than that.'

So they are back to where they were a minute ago, either the conversation ends and you walk out the door or they MUST make you another offer. So the seller says, 'I can see you really like it, what if I could let you have it for $2500?' Your answer remains the same, 'that's a great price, but unfortunately, it's still more than I was prepared to spend.'

You rinse and repeat this, never offering a price but always showing you would really like to buy it if you could just afford it. Eventually of course the seller will stop giving you a better offer and will have to accept that the conversation is ended and you are going to walk out the door. At that point they will say something like, 'I'm sorry I can't do any better than that.' Then you of course must say, 'thank you for your time anyway' and you head for the door. At that point the seller may make another offer or may not. If s/he does, you are back to , 'it's beautiful but unfortunately, .......' 

When you finally do reach the point though that the seller lets you walk out the door, you do walk out. You've reached their bottom number they are willing to take and said no, so you have to walk out.

Then you go somewhere, maybe have a coffee or just wait a few minutes and return. When you walk back in, you simply say, 'I've thought about it and it is still more than I wanted to spend but I love my wife and so I've decided to heck with it, she deserves it.' 

"_The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." _


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Now I am not talking about you dealing with someone who does not have the authority to offer a discount.


More often than not you do deal with a salesperson that doesn't have the ability to discount but sometimes a manager is around that can. A few key points,

see what other stores are selling the same product for, rarely things are one of a kind.
ask them if there are any upcoming "sale events", they'll generally tell you.
always be willing to walk away from the sale.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

People often think of negotiations as a win-lose and negotiate primarily on price. I try to approach my negotiations as a win-win. I don't always negotiate, but base it on if it's worth my time and effort at the moment. There have been times where I have negotiated for pure sport when I have negotiated a vendor done only to give the full amount as a tip. 

I have found my most successful negotiations use my network of people I know. I am known to find great deals and have done my research. Often I will 'broker' larger deals that give me a better deal. 

We negotiated a vehicle from a (US) dealer, it was a very good deal. We knew other people interested in the vehicle as we had been comparing notes with each. The deal was worth closing based on what we negotiated. I called up our friends and asked if anyone else was interested. 4 others were. Called the salesperson, and confirmed they would match this price for everyone (didn't tell them how many), then asked how much better he could do if we give him 4 more vehicles. Got another $500 US off each, then some of our friends told their friends, 3 more deals, and asked for another deal. Salesperson dropped another $2000 for us because we offered to do our own paper work and everyone could just copy it. .We ended up with a brand new vehicle worth $50K+ discount at over 30%. The dealer ended up with 9 vehicle sale over the phone in a week. 

I have done lots of negotiations found the price I wanted, and then found others interested. I did with strangers once, as I was negotiating an item I have had researched for a while. I knew exactly what I wanted, had an idea of the lowest price I could get, then others were listening to our negotiation with interest, so I turned around to a few of them and said, if get a great deal, do you want in? 4 of them said yes. It was one of those fairs/vendor markets, so I essential did the sale for the person, and got a deal for everyone around me. I did the same when coming off a port a cruise ship, there was a watch I wanted, and when I started negotiating, other people in my family (we were travelling together) were looking at jewelry, so we all got together and got better deals. 

Another similar technique is even if I don't need a lot, I find others who are big consumers for something and piggy back with them or at least their connection. I have a friend who loves very expensive watches. They bought 4 Rolexes as gifts at one shot, and will spend $100k average a year on watches. So I was looking for my spouse, and asked them to make me a referral, and I essentially got the price they would have gotten. He brought the boutique owner whom he was friends with, helped me with my purchase, and it was a great deal. He ended up dropping a lot of money for a watch too. 

There are lots of different negotiating techniques. Since mine are often based on the fact that people trust me, relationships, and a win win, I never try to screw over anyone. I think I have done pretty well.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> I have done lots of negotiations found the price I wanted, and then found others interested.


This is a good idea which I've used before. When I was getting a new furnace I got two others that also wanted to replace as well. I got a few quotes from companies for me then phoned back saying 2 others are interested (and an additional hot water heater for one) to which a few companies gave a nice additional discount.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

@cainvest It helps when you have a network of people that are always looking for stuff. I have friends and family that have multiple rental properties. We have shared the same renovator. He gives us all a good price because essentially we are doing multiple units with the same materials. He just has to install it at a different time. 

I have had some interesting deals we have negotiated by do multiple buys - houses/real estate, renovations, appliances, jewelry, vehicles, ice cream (yep I brokered a ridiculous deal on large amounts of gourmet ice cream), food in general, baby supplies, electronics, masks (my current task).

I don't always negotiate/broker everything, usually if it's something I want a lot of, there's a big deal to be had, or the saving could be substantial. Ironically, the ice cream was a huge savings based on how much my family was eating. 

There's been so many people that I have dealt with in the past, that I will get some of the most random offers. Sometimes, it's not for me directly, but I will still put them in touch with someone else who may be interested. I have had someone ask if I wanted to go in on three used Ferrarris. We didn't but I put him in contact with another family member who did.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I believe the trick with negotiating is to never become emotionally attached to the process or the item you are negotiating for. Always be prepared to walk from the deal if it is not to your liking.

Best new car deal we ever had was when we walked. Dealer called two days later for me. DW answered the phone. I had told her this would happen and to tell the salesperson that I was out shopping for a new car. Worked like a charm. But when I went back that day to finanize there was the usual knashing of teeth and crying by the sales manager. They they did try again for that documentation fee, the extended warranty, and something else that I forgot. I just wanted the car at the very bottom line price before GST that we had agreed to. I told them I was ready to sign, but for only the agreed to amount with no extras.

It was much less confrontational when I bought a used convertable from a private seller a few years ago. It was really win win. We agreed to a price in the middle. So much so that the seller called back and told me he forgot to mention or to give me four factory alloy rims and a toneau cover for the top.


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## dotnet_nerd (Jul 1, 2009)

I've never understood the logic of haggling.

Window Cleaner: "I'll clean your 20 windows for $200"
Customer: "I want you to do it for $160"

IOW the customer expects 100% of the service but only wants to pay 80% of the price.

What you won't hear is
Window Cleaner: "No, I'm sticking to my $200. In fact how about I only do 16 of your windows for the 200? How''s that sound?"


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Plugging Along said:


> People often think of negotiations as a win-lose and negotiate primarily on price. I try to approach my negotiations as a win-win. I don't always negotiate, but base it on if it's worth my time and effort at the moment. There have been times where I have negotiated for pure sport when I have negotiated a vendor done only to give the full amount as a tip.
> 
> I have found my most successful negotiations use my network of people I know. I am known to find great deals and have done my research. Often I will 'broker' larger deals that give me a better deal.
> 
> ...


 All that work then goes to waist by walking down the street to the restaurant & instead of paying the price on the menu the customer decides to pay more by leaving a 20% tip. Rob Paul to pay Peter


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

In Mexico, the beach vendors always start at double what their bottom line is. Sadly this means buying glittery silver crap for DW at half price! This lock down is saving us beaucoup bucks. 

Better to take a pass on the deal and save your money! Is a new car essential even if a bargain? Our 2008 Nissan is working great because we have a trusted mechanic that keeps it that way. A trusted mechanic is worth his weight in gold!


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

kcowan said:


> Better to take a pass on the deal and save your money! Is a new car essential even if a bargain? Our 2008 Nissan is working great because we have a trusted mechanic that keeps it that way. A trusted mechanic is worth his weight in gold!


Not a thread on being frugal but rather getting a better price (hopefully) for something you need/want. Also, better (and cheaper) than a trusted mechanic is doing it yourself.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Same here. We take our Solara or Honda to the dealer once each year or so for an oil change. Both dealerships do the oil change as well as complete an inspection. Looking for more work. We take the list to our trusted import mechanic Elmo and he tells us what needs to be done and for how much. We have been going to the same place for years. Surprising at times the difference in cost....especially on same for same Toyota brand parts. Service from Elmo, tires from Costco.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Re OPost, to save you the agony of having to do "all" that work, I would just give your wife a cheque and she can get whatever (item or piece of jewellery) she likes. 

Just make sure it has plenty of zeros behind the first digit as I'm sure she wouldn't want to get any gold jewellery with less than 18K on it if she knows her stuff.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

Being more straight forward and bidding early has worked better for me. For one thing, most sellers are busy with all sorts of things, including other customers. If nothing else they want to check on their social media. Same for me. So in the case above, I will say "I can buy this for 2500" and take it from there. Also I don't mind low balling a bit. These people are pros and want to do a deal. It is not going to hurt their feelings. Oftentimes in car purchases I have starting 30% below MSRP; the response has usually been something along the lines of "there is no way we can do a deal at that price. Would you reconsider?" If I liked the car I would bid a bit higher and see what the best price they would offer is. A few complained that I was "driving a hard bargain", but we did the deal.

I think bidding, and for that matter even a low ball bid, establishes the intent to buy, which is paramount for the seller since a lot of people are just bored and killing time in the malls or dealerships. Now if you bid and don't go through with it, yes, it would be adversarial.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

kcowan said:


> In Mexico, the beach vendors always start at double what their bottom line is. Sadly this means buying glittery silver crap for DW at half price! This lock down is saving us beaucoup bucks.
> 
> Better to take a pass on the deal and save your money! Is a new car essential even if a bargain? Our 2008 Nissan is working great because we have a trusted mechanic that keeps it that way. A trusted mechanic is worth his weight in gold!


Agree about the trusted mechanic. My dad said there four people outside your family that you must have a strong trusting relationships with - Your doctor, lawyer, accountant, and mechanic.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Don't you folks know that everyone got the best deal on a car, has the smartest kid in school, and their home is worth more than anyone else on the street.

I have yet to meet anyone who said.......I overpaid for my car, my kid is dumb as a rock, and my home is the lowest value on the street


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> I have yet to meet anyone who said.......I overpaid for my car, my kid is dumb as a rock, and my home is the lowest value on the street


I know people that'll admit 2 out of 3 of those.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Some people seem to be missing the point that this thread is about the FUN of negotiating. Yes, it's about getting a good deal but it is also about the fun to be had in getting there.

Here's another thought for those interested to consider. In many cultures in Asia and around the Mediterranean, it is considered very bad luck to not close the first deal of the day or the week. It can mean a bad day or even an entire bad week! If you are looking at buying something in those places or even here in Canada where the seller is from those areas, you can start off with an advantage if you are the first customer in the door on Monday morning and use the tactics I outlined in the OP.

Letting you walk out the door is the last thing the seller wants to happen and you really are likely to get the bottom, bottom price offered before s/he will let you walk.

Cainvest, regarding your comments about, " _More often than not you do deal with a salesperson that doesn't have the ability to discount but sometimes a manager is around that can. A few key points,_

_see what other stores are selling the same product for, rarely things are one of a kind._
_ask them if there are any upcoming "sale events", they'll generally tell you."_
I don't buy jewellery for my wife from a chain store and so am always dealing with the owner/goldsmith. Mass produced items are fine for costume jewellery but please, for anything of real value I expect originality. My wife has 3 rings on her left ring finger. Her engagement ring made by and bought from a goldsmith in Greece. Her wedding ring, made by and bought from a goldsmith in Scotland and an eternity ring, made by and bought from a goldsmith here in Canada.

The engagement ring has an unusual kind of Z (on it's side) shape and consequently the wedding ring and eternity ring had to be made to fit into that shape. Not exact but similar to this custom designed ring:


https://www.poags.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Sue.jpg


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> Don't you folks know that everyone got the best deal on a car, has the smartest kid in school, and their home is worth more than anyone else on the street.
> 
> I have yet to meet anyone who said.......I overpaid for my car, my kid is dumb as a rock, and my home is the lowest value on the street


I have never overpaid on a vehicle, but my spouse has. He is an impulsive car buyer. My kids were the smartest kids in the class, now they are average as all the kids in their class must have tested with a gifted IQ (mine average of the gifted) and I do believe I have the lowest value house on the street. 

So I admitted to 2 our 3 and the one about my kids I can objectivly and statically prove. But when my youngest was little she didnt nearly come off as bright as her older sibling. I would tell the teacher that she wasn’t the baby Einstein. 

I think I am pretty honest and good at self accessing myself.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Cainvest, regarding your comments about, " _More often than not you do deal with a salesperson that doesn't have the ability to discount but sometimes a manager is around that can. A few key points,_
> 
> _see what other stores are selling the same product for, rarely things are one of a kind._
> _ask them if there are any upcoming "sale events", they'll generally tell you."_
> I don't buy jewellery for my wife from a chain store and so am always dealing with the owner/goldsmith. Mass produced items are fine for costume jewellery but please, for anything of real value I expect originality.


I was speaking generally, not specific for jewellery which me and my SO have absolutely no use for.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

A number of years ago on a cruise I went into a jewelry store on St. Thomas. Lots of them. So...was ready to buy a gift for my spouse... a cross on a chain. The clerk gave me a price I asked for it to be weighted. He agreed and did on on the scale beside the counter. We semi agreed on a price I then asked to take it to the back and weigh it on the scale beside the repair area. He reluctantly agreed. Yes, the weight was less than the scale at the front display counter.. The clerk had the piece reduced to a more competitive price. Even then, how was I to know that the carat count of the gold was what they said it was.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Some people seem to be missing the point that this thread is about the FUN of negotiating. Yes, it's about getting a good deal but it is also about the fun to be had in getting there.
> 
> Here's another thought for those interested to consider. In many cultures in Asia and around the Mediterranean, it is considered very bad luck to not close the first deal of the day or the week. It can mean a bad day or even an entire bad week! If you are looking at buying something in those places or even here in Canada where the seller is from those areas, you can start off with an advantage if you are the first customer in the door on Monday morning and use the tactics I outlined in the OP.
> 
> Letting you walk out the door is the last thing the seller wants to happen and you really are likely to get the bottom, bottom price offered before s/he will let you walk.


 ... so spending a couple of hours of "negotiating" is your idea of FUN? OK, I get that now you were in "sales" before which is a typical trait for that I gather. Sorry but I have no patience for it. Unless I'm bored, bored, bored.

Here in TO, in a non-chain store (mom & pop say), if I was the merchant, I would either told you to get lost or stick to my price. Because I would certainly know you don't know your stuff on that piece, content, quality-wise, etc. And on the OTOH, if I was the customer, I would be suspicious about how easily to get a markdown on what is supposedly a quality product.


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## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

From Webster's Thesaurus: 
Haggle: Dicker, bargain.
Sounds to me like what you do is haggle. What other word is there for it?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Negotiating, bargaining, etc ... anything but the word "haggling" ... according to LTA's vocabulary. I would add "spinning" or word-smithing if not bsing in there too.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

pwm said:


> From Webster's Thesaurus:
> Haggle: Dicker, bargain.
> Sounds to me like what you do is haggle. What other word is there for it?


LTA is haggling or bargaining, but wants to call it negotiating because he believes he is better. His haggling techniques are more refined than others, but it’s still haggling.

QUOTE="Beaver101, post: 2091369, member: 41742"]
^ Negotiating, bargaining, etc ... anything but the word "haggling" ... according to LTA's vocabulary. I would add "spinning" or word-smithing if not bsing in there too. 
[/QUOTE]

Negotiation is about finding a win win solution and bringing points from both parties, and a give and take, price is one of the considerations but not the only. Haggling is primarily fixed on paying the lower price. One party wins by paying less while the other party loses by getting less.

There is a difference but LTA didn’t use the correct definitions.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> I was speaking generally, not specific for jewellery which me and my SO have absolutely no use for.


You mean ' my SO and I', not 'me and my SO'. 



ian said:


> A number of years ago on a cruise I went into a jewelry store on St. Thomas.


Ian, I would have thought you would know better than to buy jewellery in a tourist shop on St. Thomas or any other highly trafficked tourist location. How were you to even know it wasn't any karat weight of gold at all. That's when people's skin turns green from wearing the jewellery and they discover it was just plated. LOL

When I lived in Greece, I could never understand how tourists let themselves be scammed into buying fakes of all kinds. When a pair of Levis are $10, they are not Levis, etc.

As some knowledgeable posters in the following link say, you can get a good deal but you can also get scammed and unless you personally know how to tell the difference, buying in tourist areas just isn't worth the risk. When I read in one comment on the link, "_The prices are so great. For example my last purchase was at Glitters in 6/04 a 3.15 ct black & white diamond bracelet in 14kt white gold, I think it was listed for $3,000 odd dollars, I walked away with it for $1025.00." , _I know they did not get something actually worth $3000 for $1025. That simply defies common sense. The saying holds true, 'if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.' No one sells a $3000 item at a loss.








Jewelry and Diamonds - St. Thomas Forum - Tripadvisor


Answer 1 of 20: Are all those jewelry stores in St. Thomas really giving good deals? My wife wants some new diamond ear rings for her anniversary and we are traveling to the area in January. Should I shop there or wait until I come home? Any suggestions for...




www.tripadvisor.ca





Side Note: When reading reviews on sites like Tripadvisor, always bear in mind that reviews are often written by the people/business being reveiwed. In other words, they are fake reviews, the more praise given, the more likely that is.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> LTA is haggling or bargaining, but wants to call it negotiating because he believes he is better. His haggling techniques are more refined than others, but it’s still haggling.
> 
> Negotiation is about finding a win win solution and bringing points from both parties, and a give and take, price is one of the considerations but not the only. Haggling is primarily fixed on price. One party wins by paying less while the other party loses by getting less.


Very good Plugging Along, you are pretty much on the money with the difference and that is why I specifically wrote that I never haggle but do negotiate. I do always want to arrive at a win/win. If both parties do not walk away smiling, I consider it a failure.

Like I said, I just keep saying that I like the item and would like to buy it. I leave it up to the seller to decide what final price s/he will be happy to sell it to me for. Do you think they ever give me a price they aren't happy with? I don't think so.

Haggling to me is based on an adversarial approach as you are indicating. Trying to 'beat down' the other party. I never do that. I just let them sell something to me.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

Haggling is a colloquial word for negotiations concentrated on price. An agreement on price would be a win-win situation; the seller is not going to take a loss because someone haggles with them. There are different ways to do this. No reason to glorify a specific approach.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

[


Longtimeago said:


> Very good Plugging Along, you are pretty much on the money with the difference and that is why I specifically wrote that I never haggle but do negotiate. I do always want to arrive at a win/win. If both parties do not walk away smiling, I consider it a failure.
> 
> Like I said, I just keep saying that I like the item and would like to buy it. I leave it up to the seller to decide what final price s/he will be happy to sell it to me for. Do you think they ever give me a price they aren't happy with? I don't think so.
> 
> Haggling to me is based on an adversarial approach as you are indicating. Trying to 'beat down' the other party. I never do that. I just let them sell something to me.



You stating you 'never haggle' is false. Except in your example, you are not negotiating, your techniques are just more sophisticated in haggling. Most of the tools and techniques overlap between negotiation and haggling, but they are different. Haggling is a subset of negotiations. It doesn't matter if the person is 'happy; with the price, it's still haggling. One could argue they would have been happier to sell the necklace at the original price and are less happy to sell at a lower price. "Happy" is irrelevant to this discussion.

In order to say it was a win-win, you would had to confirm that the goal of the seller was to have a smile on their face. There are times I have a smile on my face, and still think what an *******. Negotiations is understanding about what both parties wants and objectives are. Haggling is based on price.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I'm not really interested in getting into an argument over semantics Plugging Along. You are free to think as you like. I know I don't 'haggle' over a price and never have. What word you choose to use to describe how I negotiate something won't change that. 
When I'm buying, I just let the seller sell me something and when I'm selling I just let the buyer, buy something. I doubt most here are capable of understanding that level of sophistication in negotiating.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Well, I'm not really interested in getting into an argument over semantics Plugging Along. You are free to think as you like. I know I don't 'haggle' over a price and never have. *What word you choose to use to describe how I negotiate something won't change that. *
> When I'm buying, I just let the seller sell me something and when I'm selling I just let the buyer, buy something. I doubt most here are capable of understanding that level of sophistication in negotiating.


You brought up the thread and post. Just clarifying that you are semantically incorrect, but you choose to state you don't haggle which you do. I used correct word 'haggle' to describe what you are doing. \

Just because you say you aren't haggling because you are more refined at it, doesn't change that it's still haggling. 

Though you doubt that most here are capability of understanding that level of sophistication. I have no doubt that most here can differentiate bs when they read it.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> You brought up the thread and post. Just clarifying that you are semantically incorrect, but you choose to state you don't haggle which you do. I used correct word 'haggle' to describe what you are doing. \
> 
> Just because you say you aren't haggling because you are more refined at it, doesn't change that it's still haggling.
> 
> Though you doubt that most here are capability of understanding that level of sophistication. I have no doubt that most here can differentiate bs when they read it.


This really is becoming tedious Plugging Along. I do not haggle. In any dictionary you care to consult you will find that the term 'haggle' usually includes words like, 'argue', 'contentious' and describe a process of going 'back and forth' between the two parties. There is no 'back and forth' stating of prices in what I described, no arguing, no area of contention. 

Tell me where there is any arguing, contention or back and forth on price when someone says to you, _'it's beautiful, I like it, no doubt it's worth what you are asking for it, unfortunately it is more than I was planning to spend.' _

Go ahead and tell me how that is haggling' by any dictionary definition you care to provide a link to. Here's a fairly detailed explanation of haggling.








Haggle


To haggle is when two parties involved in the purchase of a good and service negotiate the price until both parties can mutually agree on a price.




www.investopedia.com


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> You mean ' my SO and I', not 'me and my SO'.


Nope, I mean "me and my SO". If you send $10 to my PayPal account I'll change it for you though.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> This really is becoming tedious Plugging Along. I do not haggle.


Again, just repeating yourself and saying you don't do something, doesn't make it true. If you find it tedious, that's on you. I am not forcing you to respond. I find bantering with those who come off at all knowing as entertaining and fun as haggling. However, this may have to be my last post today on it, because I have found something better to do now that my kidlet is awake. 



> In any dictionary you care to consult you will find that the term 'haggle' *usually includes* words like, 'argue', 'contentious' and describe a process of going 'back and forth' between the two parties. There is no 'back and forth' stating of prices in what I described, no arguing, no area of contention.
> Tell me where there is any arguing, contention or back and forth on price when someone says to you, _'it's beautiful, I like it, no doubt it's worth what you are asking for it, unfortunately it is more than I was planning to spend.' _


The key word is 'usually' or may. From a logic standpoint, 'usually' does not imply 'must'. One can still be haggling even if there is no 'arguing' That I why I say your form of haggling is much more refined. Doesn't mean you don't haggle, you just do it well. Consider yourself a sophisticated haggler. 

Go ahead and tell me how that is haggling' by any dictionary definition you care to provide a link to. Here's a fairly detailed explanation of haggling.








Haggle


To haggle is when two parties involved in the purchase of a good and service negotiate the price until both parties can mutually agree on a price.




www.investopedia.com





As I predicted, you would take some google reference. I will use direct quotes from the article you posted. This was very first paragraph of your article, so I appreciate not having read too much before finding the finding the information. I took the liberty of reformatting the quote to address each line easily



> DEFINITION of Haggle
> 1. To haggle is when two parties involved in a transaction such as the purchase of a good and service negotiate the price until both parties can mutually agree on a fair price.
> 2. The process of haggling involves two parties making sequential offers and counteroffers to each other until a price is agreed upon.
> 3. The individual trying to buy the good and service is trying to pay the least amount possible, while the seller's primary objective is to maximize the selling price.
> 4. Haggling also *may *go by the names bargaining, quibbling, dickering, or informal negotiating.


1. Your example proves you are trying to get a mutually agreed on fair price. YES - CHECK
2. You would like to argue that you are not making a sequential offer. In your case, you wait for the seller to make an offer, you turn it down, with no counter, but return with the intent that they will make another counter offer. This is where your technique is refined haggling as there is a back and forth, you are just not contributing much. YES-CHECK
3. You are trying to get the lowest price, and the seller is trying to get the highest YES-CHECK
4. Key word is MAY. I agree you are not argueing. However, argue MAY be a part of haggling, but is not a requirement. NOT REQUIRED>

So yes, you are still haggling.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

cainvest said:


> I was speaking generally, not specific for jewellery which me and my SO have absolutely no use for.


You and I and our SOs must be the only 4 people in the world who think like that. 

I have never understood jewellery. Do people honestly think it makes them look better somehow? Probably they do not really. The only real purpose I can see is some kind of effort to be noticed. And, when it comes to expensive jewellery, the focus seems to be on showing off what one can afford. Weird.

But, if one insists upon buying jewellery, one better haggle and haggle hard. Or "negotiate" if that choice or word makes you feel better about the process. You must be taken to know you are throwing your money away and you might just as well try to limit the amount. 

I have heard people say an expensive necklace or whatever is an "investment". I wonder how many such "investments" can ever be re-sold for their purchase price in the owner's lifetime. Mostly all that can be realized is the scrap value of the metal.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Mukhang pera said:


> You and I and our SOs must be the only 4 people in the world who think like that.
> 
> I have never understood jewellery. Do people honestly think it makes them look better somehow? Probably they do not really. The only real purpose I can see is some kind of effort to be noticed. And, when it comes to expensive jewellery, the focus seems to be on showing off what one can afford. Weird.
> 
> ...



I have very mixed feelings about jewelry. Being a practical and logical person, I don't have 'use' for it. However, from a sentimental area, I was taught otherwise. There is a lot of significance to jewelry, well precious gems and metals.

My parents and grandmother immigrated to Canada from a country that did not allow for the accumulation of wealth. When leaving the country (in the 50's and 60s), one could not leave with more than the equivalent of $50 USD in cash. For families that were trying to flee, much of the wealth would be put into gold and precious gems. The other part of this equation was for women specifically. Women were treated more like property, they belonged to their parents, then to be traded to a husband where their livelihood was dependent on their husbands. Families would provide dowries for their daughters starting at birth, this could always be used in hard times in case their husband died (this was pretty much the only reason not to have the husband, no divorce, etc)

When my parents came here, they had very little. My mother brought some of the jewelry she snuck out of the country. My grandmother was also brought here, and brought the diamond that my grandfather risked everything for (he was separated in another country and later died before them ever being reunited). My grandmother, since she had a dead husband who couldn't take care of her could only rely on my father who was the only surviving child. At the birth of each of my siblings and myself, my grandmothers wish and gift to us to was a diamond along with other jewelry. This was supposed to be a reminder of her sacrifices, but also as a way to help feed our families in hard times, essentially our inheritance from a poor immigrant. 

My mother's story is the similar. When she arrived in Canada, she scrimped and saved her pennies (literally). Money should have been given to the 'man of the house' but she hide it, and would buy a Canadian Mint gold coin as soon as she had enough. The strange part of the story is because traditionally having 'money' in such a form would not be allowed, she had each of the coins mounted and soldered together in jewelry format. She thought this was a good way to 'hide' the money in case someone came for it. The jewelry is quite gaudy and will never be worn under normal events (maybe as a part of my girls wedding dowry). The coins are worth less now because they have been altered from the original form. They were passed down to me during my wedding, and some when each of my kids were born as a part of their dowery. 

I have purchased stock shares for each of my girl\s dowries. However, I could not get away from the impractical tradition of jewelry. Each child will receive an almost perfect diamond when they are older (my grandmothers diamond, and mine). If I had a third child, I would have bought another diamond. I don't know if it's an investment or not, but I do know the last time I had it appraised for insurance, it was many times more than what my mother got hers for. I remember growing up as kid and being able to look at gems and be able to tell the quality. I understood all the grading before I left elementary (helps to have gemologist and jewelry store owners in the family). 

For me personally, I have very mixed feelings about jewelry. I have a cheaper diamond bracelet & necklace, the size of the diamonds won't be worth more ever than what was paid for. I could probably sell it for 20% of what it was bought for so not a good investment but it was a gift. I wear it and brings memories and sentiment. It will be split as a memory but not a lot of worth. However, I tell these stories to my kids as a reminder of where they came from, and it seems to have more impact than the Disney shares they received as babies. Just wanted to share that jewelry often comes from something more than just an investment. Like travel adventure, it brings memories and those stories can be passed to future generations. 

I don't think I have bought any jewelry since my last child was born, but will probably do so at significant events.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

whenever I go to buy a car, and 'negotiate' a price, my starting mind set is:
"_OK, they are going to have to pay ME to take their car!"_
Let the games begin!


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

I'm with jargey3000. A past master at the art of haggling (or negotiating to put a more refined spin on it). I start out asking what the seller will pay me to take the item off their hands. They start out asking some monetary consideration. We usually settle at a mid-point. They don't pay me; I don't pay them. I get the item for free. It's win-win. Neither side feels burdened by a transaction reduced to crass commercialism. 

By the standards set by those like jargey and I, LTA is a mere dilettante


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

as a wise man once said, when asked about the value of a camel:
"Are we buying, or selling, my son?"


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mukhang pera said:


> You and I and our SOs must be the only 4 people in the world who think like that.
> 
> I have never understood jewellery. Do people honestly think it makes them look better somehow? Probably they do not really. The only real purpose I can see is some kind of effort to be noticed. And, when it comes to expensive jewellery, the focus seems to be on showing off what one can afford. Weird.
> 
> ...


Jewellery may be bought for 'show' without a doubt Mukhang pera but then again it may not. There are other reasons for buying jewellery that are no different than sending a birthday card to someone or bringing home some flowers on no particular day. They are intended as a means of expressing feelings. I suspect you know that but are simply choosing to focus on the 'show' aspect to be contrary.

I firmly believe there is a difference between 'saying' and 'doing'. I can say 'thank you' to the local municipal workers who came and did a very careful job of spreading some grass seed at the front of our property after it had been dug up to put in a new water line. Or I can go to Timmy's, buy a large box of donuts and drive to the work yard office where they all have lunch and show my thanks. I'm sure if you asked them, they would tell you there is a difference, just as my wife knows without me having to tell her that I love her, appreciate her, etc. but also knows there is a difference when I show her I do in some way, whether it be bringing home some flowers on just another Wednesday afternoon, or a diamond bracelet. The flowers are temporary, the bracelet is a permanent reminder every time she looks at it.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mukhang pera said:


> I'm with jargey3000. A past master at the art of haggling (or negotiating to put a more refined spin on it). I start out asking what the seller will pay me to take the item off their hands. They start out asking some monetary consideration. We usually settle at a mid-point. They don't pay me; I don't pay them. I get the item for free. It's win-win. Neither side feels burdened by a transaction reduced to crass commercialism.
> 
> By the standards set by those like jargey and I, LTA is a mere dilettante


Umm, can you explain how you get the item for free? It sounds to me like you merely start at zero and the seller at 100 and meet at 50. Who then pays the 50? A zero to 100 ending up at meeting at 50 sounds to me like the least sophisticated form of negotiating there is.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

jargey3000 said:


> as a wise man once said, when asked about the value of a camel:
> "Are we buying, or selling, my son?"


Ah yes jargey3000. Buying and selling are two entirely different things indeed. How I go about selling something is entirely different to how I go about buying something. That's why I wrote earlier that when buying I simply let the seller sell me and when I am selling, I simply let the buyer buy from me.

Here is a simple example of how I would sell something to the average consumer (not a business to business transaction in other words which requires an entirely different approach). Suppose I am a car salesperson and you are in the market to buy.

You come to me and after looking at what's available, you say something like, 'I like this one, how much?' I reply, 'do you want me to give you a price that includes a margin that you can haggle over with me which I am pretty good at or do you want me to give you a price without any 'wiggle room? The reason I ask you that is because I am used to people wanting to haggle over price and have no problem with accommodating them if that is what they want to do. But quite honestly, I do this every day and in the end, there is a price I am happy to sell at and I will not go below that obviously. So we can haggle if you want or I can just tell you that price and you can say yes or no. So which do you prefer to do? Haggle or just have me tell you my drop dead price to start with?'

Which would you choose to have me tell you jargey3000? If you choose the 'drop dead price' and then attempt to haggle, I will not engage, it's take it or leave it.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> Jewellery may be bought for 'show' without a doubt Mukhang pera but then again it may not. There are other reasons for buying jewellery that are no different than sending a birthday card to someone or bringing home some flowers on no particular day. They are intended as a means of expressing feelings. I suspect you know that but are simply choosing to focus on the 'show' aspect to be contrary.
> 
> I firmly believe there is a difference between 'saying' and 'doing'. I can say 'thank you' to the local municipal workers who came and did a very careful job of spreading some grass seed at the front of our property after it had been dug up to put in a new water line. Or I can go to Timmy's, buy a large box of donuts and drive to the work yard office where they all have lunch and show my thanks. I'm sure if you asked them, they would tell you there is a difference, just as my wife knows without me having to tell her that I love her, appreciate her, etc. but also knows there is a difference when I show her I do in some way, whether it be bringing home some flowers on just another Wednesday afternoon, or a diamond bracelet. The flowers are temporary, the bracelet is a permanent reminder every time she looks at it.


You will note LTA that what I said about jewellery is I do not see why anyone wants to wear it. I did not address the warm and fuzzy feelings that apparently attend gifting it. That's another story. 

My wife is happy to receive flowers, dinners out, lots of things. But if I brought home a $3,000 bracelet she would think I had taken leave of my senses. And that's recognizing that we are at that stage where $3K is not really a significant outlay. But to us, it's a pointless outlay, so it seems foolish. We recognize that few share our views and we usually do not express those views to others. They have their way; we have ours. My wife has never so much as had her ears pierced, which now seems universal at about age 4. Getting that way for guys too (ugh). 

I liken jewellery to tattoos. Again, do those with tattoos think they look better? I guess so. Seems darn near everyone is sporting them these days. I think they only serve to deface the natural beauty of the human animal. Again, just me. I never express those thoughts out loud. 

Out of curiosity, LTA, what does your wife do to reciprocate the messages of appreciation? You give (no doubt _inter alia) _jewellery. So it can sit in a drawer and be pulled out periodically to act as a silent "reminder". I suppose that works for some. You say it does and so it must. Better to file it away and maybe wear now and again than be one of those who seemingly wear every piece they own, which I find very unattractive. But back to the question - does your wife give you jewellery, or watches, or golf clubs, or sports cars, or?

For me, I must confess, that I for long poo pooed expressions along the lines of "collect memories, not things". I took some pleasure in accumulating nice things. But now, in my 7th decade, I am starting to find the supply exceeding the demand. I don't want to acquire more "stuff". That's the word used by some to really denigrate consumption. It denotes near-disgust. Eeeewww, stuff, yuck. I am not quite at that stage. I still like some stuff. But now I am more limited to acquiring replacements for existing stuff rather than additional stuff. 

I have some jewellery that belonged to my mother. I have kept it for sentimental reasons, even though I probably should just flog it for the gold value. There are some diamonds, a lot of opals she liked, and one each of genuine ruby and emerald. I expect the stones to have no resale value; just the gold. I pulled it out and looked at it all while writing this. Sure, I recall her having those things, wearing some, some of the time. But I did not find it evocative at all. Not nearly as much as old photos of family occasions and non-occasions. Or just casting my mind back to times with mother and family. My own memory bank serves as a pretty good "permanent reminder" which, when it fails through dementia or whatever, is unlikely to be re-booted by casting my gaze upon a collection of jewellery.

At the risk of repetitiveness, I am not disparaging your words or your way. Why should I? We are not all the same. No reason for you not to do what gives you pleasure. Go in peace.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> Umm, can you explain how you get the item for free? It sounds to me like you merely start at zero and the seller at 100 and meet at 50. Who then pays the 50? A zero to 100 ending up at meeting at 50 sounds to me like the least sophisticated form of negotiating there is.


Ummm, LTA, my words were wholly in jest. Perhaps you do not perceive my writing as irresistibly droll, and that's okay. I'll try to do better next time.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

After going through numerous phases of collecting this and that, I have come to the conclusion that it is much easier to buy than sell.

If I want something someone is selling, I either buy it or I don't. If they ask too much, they get to keep the item. There are plenty others to buy.

I used to go to a lot of estate auctions. There on the tables lie someone's lifetime of treasures..........all sold for a few dollars each.

It is sad to think of it that way, but it is the reality.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

There is a time to negoitate and a time to simply pay the freight. For us it depends on the amount and on the circumstances.

Last trip we got a better price on 5 or 7 day accommodation simply by asking and offering to pay direct, in cash. In one instance a $500 stay became a $350 stay in about 5 seconds flat simply by offering cash, direct. On many occasions our travel costs have been reduced simply by politely asking if the rate they gave us was 'the best possible rate'. About 50 percent of the time that simple question either got us one or more of an instant price reduction, a room upgrade, a included breakfast, no fee parking, etc. It took 10 seconds as DW looked the clerk in the eye or called about 5-6PM/

You be very surprised at what you can get simply by asking the question....is this your best price? There is no downside. The worst that can happen is a negative response. Just do it politely and professionally. We bought our first home in Vancouver in the early 80's when real estate was in the slump. We had the conveyancing fee on our first home in Vancouver cut in half simply by asking and implying that we would go to another firm not recommended by the back. Fee was cut in half. We have never paid appraisal or mortgage renewal fees but never had a cmhc mortgage insured loan) on any home or mortgage. The trick was to stare down the bank loans officer until sh/he picked up the phone and called 'downtown'. That was the code for us that the fat lady had sung!

Asking for a better price does not always mean haggling or intense negotiation. IMHO you have to pick your 'spots' based on value and prospects.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mukhang pera said:


> You will note LTA that what I said about jewellery is I do not see why anyone wants to wear it. I did not address the warm and fuzzy feelings that apparently attend gifting it. That's another story.
> 
> My wife is happy to receive flowers, dinners out, lots of things. But if I brought home a $3,000 bracelet she would think I had taken leave of my senses. And that's recognizing that we are at that stage where $3K is not really a significant outlay. But to us, it's a pointless outlay, so it seems foolish. We recognize that few share our views and we usually do not express those views to others. They have their way; we have ours. My wife has never so much as had her ears pierced, which now seems universal at about age 4. Getting that way for guys too (ugh).
> 
> ...


Well I will attempt to answer as best I can Mukhang pera. Recently, my wife and I happened to be discussing our end of life and what if one goes before the other etc. as you do when you get to an age where you can see it on the horizon.

One part of the whole discussion was about just this subject, jewellery. My wife does have some nice jewellery including a diamond bracelet such as you describe, without thinking I had taken leave of my senses when I gave it to her.

Anyway, she was saying, 'If I go first, I don't know what I want you to do with my jewellery. Some of the higher priced items are obvious enough that others would want them but really, no one will get the same pleasure from them as I have.' I think that really expresses the difference Mukhang pera, they mean something to her, not to others. Others will only see the monetary value.

If we go for a 'Sunday drive', she often plays a kind of 'game' of pointing to various items she is wearing and referring to either when or where I bought it for her. They represent memories of those times and places and there is pleasure for her in being reminded of them. 

When I go, who is going to appreciate a shirt I have that I bought 30 years ago and is still as good looking as it was when I bought it? No one is. Yet every time I put it on, I enjoy wearing it and I always remember where and when I bought it. Jewellery is the same, it simply gives the person pleasure. The cost is not part of that pleasure.

Regarding reciprocating, she doesn't have to. I get as much pleasure out of seeing her pleasure as she does. No different than giving her flowers. I don't expect her to give me something in return, that to me would imply a 'tit for tat' was necessary for us to be 'even'. 

People always seem to have to refer to the $ cost of jewellery and how they don't see the point of spending money on it. Why do they want to make it about money? It costs money yes, but so what? It has nothing to do with money.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> I used to go to a lot of estate auctions. There on the tables lie someone's lifetime of treasures..........all sold for a few dollars each.
> 
> It is sad to think of it that way, but it is the reality.


Yes, that is the reality sags and is part of what I was trying to say to Mukhang pera in my last response. They are 'treasures' to the person who had them but only 'monetary value' to anyone else. But that does not make them any less of a treasure to the person who treasured them.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> There is a time to negoitate and a time to simply pay the freight. For us it depends on the amount and on the circumstances.
> 
> Last trip we got a better price on 5 or 7 day accommodation simply by asking and offering to pay direct, in cash. In one instance a $500 stay became a $350 stay in about 5 seconds flat simply by offering cash, direct. On many occasions our travel costs have been reduced simply by politely asking if the rate they gave us was 'the best possible rate'. About 50 percent of the time that simple question either got us one or more of an instant price reduction, a room upgrade, a included breakfast, no fee parking, etc. It took 10 seconds as DW looked the clerk in the eye or called about 5-6PM/
> 
> ...


With hotels, it is always better to ask if a price quoted is the 'lowest price they can offer' rather than the 'best price they can offer' ian. This applies primarily in N. America where 'Best Price' is in fact a standard semi-legal term. If you look at a typical listing of prices for a hotel room you will often see a list like:

Seniors rate
AAA rate
government rate
Best rate

These are all PUBLISHED rates and the 'best rate' simply means the desk clerk can honestly say, 'yes, that is our 'best rate'. It does not mean it is the 'lowest' rate they can offer you if they choose to do so. And also remember that the lowest price does not necessarily mean the best 'value'. A lower priced room right next to a dinging elevator or rattling ice machine may be cheaper but paying a bit more for a corner room with a great view may be better 'value'.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> People always seem to have to refer to the $ cost of jewellery and how they don't see the point of spending money on it. Why do they want to make it about money? It costs money yes, but so what? It has nothing to do with money.


Then why does it have to be gold and diamonds? There are many things that are aesthetically equivalent without being terribly expensive. 

I remember my grandmother having a lot of grief from some of the expensive pieces she had. One time a (now ex-)uncle apparently stole some pieces from her jewelry box during a visit. Later, she had a number of times where she lost something and thought/outright accused PSWs of taking them when visiting her home. By the time she was in the long term care facility, her kids would buy her costume jewelry from garage sales and she got as much enjoyment out of that without people at the LTC home swiping it.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> ...
> 
> People always seem to have to refer to the $ cost of jewellery and how they don't see the point of spending money on it. *Why do they want to make it about money?* It costs money yes, but so what? It has nothing to do with money.


 ... then why bother "negotiating" the price then? A buyer's sport or more like a restless or bored ex-salesperson?


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> Well I will attempt to answer as best I can Mukhang pera.
> 
> People always seem to have to refer to the $ cost of jewellery and how they don't see the point of spending money on it. Why do they want to make it about money? It costs money yes, but so what? It has nothing to do with money.


Not sure why you felt compelled to provide an “answer”. The post you are answering closed with these words:

_At the risk of repetitiveness, I am not disparaging your words or your way. Why should I? We are not all the same. No reason for you not to do what gives you pleasure. Go in peace._

Your answer simply points out that you and your wife live according to your own lights, which is as it should be.

We got onto this tangent when I expressed agreement with cainvest, who made a comment about “me and my SO have absolutely no use for” jewellery. 

As for the notion of cost of jewellery, as I think I made plain in my post quoting cainvest, cost is not a factor in my feelings about jewellery. I do not like the look of it on me or anyone else. My wife has felt the same since she was a child. We realize that’s not a common view at all and we do not expect anyone to change on our account. We don’t care what they think or do and we expect them not to care about what we do. 

I fully appreciate the import of your words about how you and your wife feel about jewellery and how others will only see the monetary value. Again, on that score, I am different. I do not see the monetary value at all. Just as I do not see the point in wearing the stuff. I say I don’t see the monetary value because I have no knowledge of, or eye for, jewellery. I am sure I can easily be fooled. I probably would fail to distinguish between the Hope Diamond and a glass crystal from a chandelier at 10 paces. I doubt I could readily differentiate between 14k gold and 24k gold when seen on someone’s wrist. Probably even fake gold could fool me. Something of a philistine I am, I suppose.

In my youth, in Toronto, I studied classical saxophone with one of the best - Paul Brodie. Of those who could not appreciate the sax played artfully and with musicality, he would say “He has a tin ear”. The music was lost on that person with the tin ear. I have the equivalent - a tin eye? - for jewellery. I can’t much tell between costume jewellery and the Crown jewels. Unchaperoned, I might easily suffer the same fate as Madame Mathilde Loisel in Guy de Maupassant’s “La Parure”.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Mukhang pera said:


> As for the notion of cost of jewellery, as I think I made plain in my post quoting cainvest, cost is not a factor in my feelings about jewellery. I do not like the look of it on me or anyone else.


I guess we differ slightly in that I don't mind the look of it on others. I can also appreciate the work that went into a fine watch for example, though I would never buy one because there is no point to me owning such a thing.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

cainvest said:


> I guess we differ slightly in that I don't mind the look of it on others. I can also appreciate the work that went into a fine watch for example, though I would never buy one because there is no point to me owning such a thing.


Perhaps my wording was a bit stronger than needed. I don't _mind_ the look of jewellery on others. But I have never looked at someone wearing any item of jewellery and thought to myself how it makes that person look better than they would without. I usually take no note of it. If I do take note, it's usually of something like overgrown earrings that flap around. They can be distracting when conversing with the wearer.

I feel the same about watches. There was (maybe still is) a jewellery store in Vancouver that did radio ads, advertising that store as a source of Rolex watches. The pitch was that they are so well made that you are better off buying one Rolex in life instead of owning a long series of watches that will wear out and have to be replaced. The Rolex was touted as being cost effective. I had a hard time buying into that even then, when interest rates were above 10%. The capital used to buy a Rolex could have been put into a GIC and the interest would pay for a new watch every year. Most here could no doubt put that capital into something else and make it grow a lot more. 

Very likely Rolex and other timepieces of the type are still well-crafted. But now, a cheap battery-powered job from London Drugs will last years and be just as accurate as the Rolex. I am wearing a Timex Indiglo watch at the moment. I bought it at London Drugs about 5 years ago for about $60. Even running on the original battery. Would I feel happier seeing what I knew to be a genuine Rolex on my wrist? No. But if it makes some happy, okay by me. 

With Rolex in particular, they are copied everywhere. I saw a guy selling fake Rolex watches on Venice Beach near LA one time. To me, they looked pretty good. The same as the problem I have with jewellery. Many fake Rolexes would fool me when it comes to simply seeing one on someone.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> Then why does it have to be gold and diamonds? There are many things that are aesthetically equivalent without being terribly expensive.
> 
> I remember my grandmother having a lot of grief from some of the expensive pieces she had. One time a (now ex-)uncle apparently stole some pieces from her jewelry box during a visit. Later, she had a number of times where she lost something and thought/outright accused PSWs of taking them when visiting her home. By the time she was in the long term care facility, her kids would buy her costume jewelry from garage sales and she got as much enjoyment out of that without people at the LTC home swiping it.


Why should it not be gold and diamonds? There are many things that are aesthetically pleasing that are expensive. If you can afford them, why not buy them? Really andrewf, you could say the same about anything where you could buy something cheap or more expensive. 

The argument about why spend money on expensive jewellery always centres on that word 'expensive'. Expensive is a relative term is it not? Try to leave money out of the equation and see what it gets you. I see two necklaces I think my wife would like. I pick the one I think she would like MORE. That doesn't necessarily mean I pick the more expensive one does it? Suppose the one I reject costs $100 and the one I pick costs $1000. The only reason I would then change my mind and go for the $100 but less wanted necklace would be if I could not afford the $1000 one. If I picked the $100 necklace as the one I thought she would like more, I wouldn't reject it and change my mind because it only cost $100 and the other one costs $1000. The price does not affect which one I think would be more aesthetically pleasing to her. The price does not enter into the decision UNLESS I can't afford it.

Money has nothing to do with my choice andrewf.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mukhang pera said:


> Perhaps my wording was a bit stronger than needed. I don't _mind_ the look of jewellery on others. But I have never looked at someone wearing any item of jewellery and thought to myself how it makes that person look better than they would without. I usually take no note of it. If I do take note, it's usually of something like overgrown earrings that flap around. They can be distracting when conversing with the wearer.
> 
> I feel the same about watches. There was (maybe still is) a jewellery store in Vancouver that did radio ads, advertising that store as a source of Rolex watches. The pitch was that they are so well made that you are better off buying one Rolex in life instead of owning a long series of watches that will wear out and have to be replaced. The Rolex was touted as being cost effective. I had a hard time buying into that even then, when interest rates were above 10%. The capital used to buy a Rolex could have been put into a GIC and the interest would pay for a new watch every year. Most here could no doubt put that capital into something else and make it grow a lot more.
> 
> ...


I am somewhat conflicted when it comes to a Rolex. I owned a Rolex for years which was gifted to me. Eventually, I gave it to one of my sons. It wasn't that I no longer liked it, it was simply that I wanted a change. One of the 'problems' with owning a Rolex is that you can no longer really justify buying another watch to tell time and I like buying a new watch every so often. A Rolex will last your lifetime as they are practically indestructible and just leaving a $10k watch in a drawer because you decide you like the look of a Timex better is kinda hard to do psychologically.

I have also owned a Timex Expedition watch. Insignificantly priced but I really liked the look of it at the time. Now I'm wearing a Victorinox Maverick watch that I've had for some years now. I keep looking at watches but have yet to see one I like more and that makes me want to make a change. If I do, I'll buy it because while my Victorinox is far from the cheapest watch to buy(around $500), it is not anywhere near the price of a Rolex and I will not have a problem just throwing it in a drawer. I don't have to find someone I am willing to gift a $10k watch to that will actually increase in value over time.

So would I buy another Rolex or some other equally highly priced watch? No, I would not, not because of the price but because of the difficulty in later justifying a change.

Regarding fakes, I've never understood why anyone would buy a fake anything. Who are they trying to kid? Very few people ever look at what watch someone is wearing I would think. If they did, very, very few are horologists after all and might tell with a glance what kind of watch someone is wearing. I just can't see the thinking behind wearing a fake anything unless somehow you think OTHERS will think you are wearing the real thing and that matters to YOU.

So what do 'fake' wearers do? Ostentatiously, throw out their wrist and say, 'well according to my Rolex, it's 10.30am.'? Or are they stupid enough to think that others will 'notice' their watch?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Incidentally, some watches like some other 'luxury' items like some wines or cars (classics) actually increase in value over time and as such can be considered an investment. So that actually removes the 'it's a waste of money' argument.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

They are collectibles like any other. It is highly speculative... I would characterize more as a 'bet' than an investment.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> I am somewhat conflicted when it comes to a Rolex. I owned a Rolex for years which was gifted to me. Eventually, I gave it to one of my sons. It wasn't that I no longer liked it, it was simply that I wanted a change. One of the 'problems' with owning a Rolex is that you can no longer really justify buying another watch to tell time and I like buying a new watch every so often. A Rolex will last your lifetime as they are practically indestructible and just leaving a $10k watch in a drawer because you decide you like the look of a Timex better is kinda hard to do psychologically.
> 
> I have also owned a Timex Expedition watch. Insignificantly priced but I really liked the look of it at the time. Now I'm wearing a Victorinox Maverick watch that I've had for some years now. I keep looking at watches but have yet to see one I like more and that makes me want to make a change. If I do, I'll buy it because while my Victorinox is far from the cheapest watch to buy(around $500), it is not anywhere near the price of a Rolex and I will not have a problem just throwing it in a drawer. I don't have to find someone I am willing to gift a $10k watch to that will actually increase in value over time.
> 
> ...


I have three Rolexes that I have kept because of sentimental value 
-The first is one that is an antique that needs to be serviced. It was one that my mother received as a gift from my grandmother. My grandfather who left their country to support my grandmother (dies without ever being united back) bought it for her as a sign of 'better times'. Being that that were poorer, it was considered very strange. Very long story of their values and history behind it. It was one of the last things he sent before he past away. It's over 60 years old and my mother stopped servicing it years ago. I have it now, and was looking into the getting it reserviced, but don't know if there is any value of servicing it for $1500+, as I would probably not wear it. It's kept for sentimental value, and will be handed down to one of my kids. There is also a Rolex my dad has that isn't keeping time that my brother is going to service for sentimental value.

The next Rolex, is more of a "Rolox" as it is a fake. It's a very good fake as many have been fooled, even in jewelry stores but not by the Rolex dealer we know. I bought it on my first trip to NYC just out of school. I could not afford the real one and almost all my family members had a real one. So I found out where the 'best' fakes were in Canal Street/Chinatown, I knew surprisingly a lot about real Rolexes.. I had to ask about it in a very specific way (it was like secret code). Then I found someone who whisked me to a secret back room where there were all of premium fakes. My partner at the time was not allowed in and had to guard the door. These fakes double or triple the price of the really bad knock offs, but they were pretty close to a real thing. After some haggling, I managed to get one for about $100US (which was a lot for a watch then). It was such an adventure of me going behind this secret market, my partner worriedly standing guard, we still laugh about how stupid I was just to go. The watch maybe last 3-4 years which was longer than some of the bad fakes I had try (one died before I even flew home). I have kept that one broke watch just because it reminds me of the adventure we had.
My current watch was a gift from someone I invested with, and made it really big. It was a very nice thank you. It's my main watch. I don't think much of it, other than it's a watch. I have to wear it all the time because it is self winding. I keep it because it is a gift and also represents a key milestone in my financial situation. What I didn't know when I received the gift was the maintenance requirements. I had no idea that it is recommended to service every 5 years or so. It's between $800-1200 for a routine servicing. I try and drag my servicing between 8-10 years and its still expensive. Once, my watch go hit with a softball during a game, that was another $500 and only because it didn't crack the glass.

I keep my watch serviced but at times would rather have a nice diamond, less maintenance cost. It's interesting, I do occasionally notice the type of watch someone is wearing, It's generally that someone has made a comment about mine and they are a watch person. I think people who are into watches notice other peoples watches. That's the same with jewelry or anything else. You notice things that you appreciate yourself.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

andrewf said:


> They are collectibles like any other. It is highly speculative... I would characterize more as a 'bet' than an investment.


They are collectibles. I find if someone is really interesting in something enough to collect it, they will often find buyers as they know what to look for. If you are collecting for just to purpose of increase value then it makes it harder to make money off of it. I have seen this with art, wine, watches, exotic vehicles, you name it.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I just finished 'haggling over our home insurance. Year three renewal and a large increase. 

So..I went on the firm's website and got a quote for the same coverage. It was twenty two percent less. Called and asked them to compare. It was like for like only I used the 'new' quote system instead of the 'renewal' quote system. Code for attracting new customers while gradually increasing the rate for your current customers who may not shop. Told them to treat me like a new customer rather than an exisiting. Just cancel the existing and sign me up. They did. I lfirst learned about this a few years ago from an investigative piece that the UK Daily Mail did on auto insurance. Oct will be the third year for auto insurance with the same carrier. If they do the same and boost my renewal rate I will be getting a quote as a new customer.

No real haggling. When pressed to explain the 'new' quote system and the 'renewal' quote system they folded like a cheap suit!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> I have three Rolexes that I have kept because of sentimental value
> -The first is one that is an antique that needs to be serviced. It was one that my mother received as a gift from my grandmother. My grandfather who left their country to support my grandmother (dies without ever being united back) bought it for her as a sign of 'better times'. Being that that were poorer, it was considered very strange. Very long story of their values and history behind it. It was one of the last things he sent before he past away. It's over 60 years old and my mother stopped servicing it years ago. I have it now, and was looking into the getting it reserviced, but don't know if there is any value of servicing it for $1500+, as I would probably not wear it. It's kept for sentimental value, and will be handed down to one of my kids. There is also a Rolex my dad has that isn't keeping time that my brother is going to service for sentimental value.
> 
> The next Rolex, is more of a "Rolox" as it is a fake. It's a very good fake as many have been fooled, even in jewelry stores but not by the Rolex dealer we know. I bought it on my first trip to NYC just out of school. I could not afford the real one and almost all my family members had a real one. So I found out where the 'best' fakes were in Canal Street/Chinatown, I knew surprisingly a lot about real Rolexes.. I had to ask about it in a very specific way (it was like secret code). Then I found someone who whisked me to a secret back room where there were all of premium fakes. My partner at the time was not allowed in and had to guard the door. These fakes double or triple the price of the really bad knock offs, but they were pretty close to a real thing. After some haggling, I managed to get one for about $100US (which was a lot for a watch then). It was such an adventure of me going behind this secret market, my partner worriedly standing guard, we still laugh about how stupid I was just to go. The watch maybe last 3-4 years which was longer than some of the bad fakes I had try (one died before I even flew home). I have kept that one broke watch just because it reminds me of the adventure we had.
> ...


Be careful about having a Rolex serviced. It may decrease the value! Generally speaking, a collector wants a 'virgin' watch. If you look at watch collector forums you will find stories of watches that were serviced and during the service a dial was replaced for example and that dropped the value considerably. Read here:





Does a Rolex service dial decrease the value of a vintage watch? [Archive] - Rolex Forums - Rolex Watch Forum


[Archive] Does a Rolex service dial decrease the value of a vintage watch? Vintage Rolex Discussion



www.rolexforums.com


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

We have a Cartier and a self-winding fake Rolex and a Birks and a Timex. Why we have those is our business. We also have iPhones that give us the time.

Thie tread reminds me of the saying: "That guy knows the prices of everything and the values of nothing!" Values are a personal thing and they change with time.


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