# [RANT] Sometimes technology fails...



## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

.... when poorly implemented, and abused by dummies. 

The wife treated me to lunch at a restaurant today, and we decided to pop into a Loews nearby for a few items she wanted. I needed 5 things too..

2 20kg bags of conditioner salt
1 Gallon of paint
2 4.5kg Buckets of patch for asphalt driveway pothole
1 Plastic junction box for outdoor L.V. wiring
50 ft roll of 22 AWG 4 conductor wire

I found everything I needed, but when I got to the checkout there was only one cashier open, with a line of about 8 people, and also the totally unoccupied 4 'self checkout' stations; I headed there.
I lifted the smaller items to scan on the platform, but when I got to the 20kg salt bags, I looked over at the station where the attendant usually comes over with a handheld scanner for large items - that's why she's there, to assist with problems at the self-checkout.

Unfortunately, there was a line of 3 people (old geezers) who figured that, rather than wait in the regular cashier line, they would just let the self checkout attendant ring them up - no attempt to even try to use the self checkout stations. The last guy in line just had a single can of aerosol paint spray. Seriously, you old moron, you can't even attempt to figure out how to use the machine?
So, I figured I'd have to wait a while, but then even more people came to line up at the self checkout attendant without trying to use the machines. Why do they even put a cash register there? She should just say "sorry, this is for self checkout assistance only, get back in the line for the stupid people".

I got frustrated waiting, and tried to lift the 20Kg bag up to where I can scan it myself. The shopping cart started to roll away, and when I tried to grab it, while at the same time lifting the salt, I pulled something in my back. Ouch! Why don't they put a handheld wand there for customer use; that would make sense to me, but nope.
Then, I had to move the paint and ashpalt patch already in the 'bagging area' to make room for the bag of salt. The machine complained "Items removed from bagging area, please wait for attendant", to which I replied "oh f***k you". I think the young lady attendant overheard me b/c she gave me a smirky rolleyes grin, knowing she was stuck with a line of troglodytes, and couldn't assist me.
Luckily, I noticed that I could press a "I removed those items" confession button, and was able to continue.

Now, I have all these supplies, but will have to wait until my back feels better, or take drugs, before taking on any of the jobs I had planned this week with the nice weather forecast. 

I often feel insulted when some young thumb-typing smart-*** millenial gets all condescending with me when I'm using the tap payment card and it isn't working right. I'm thinking: just because I'm old, doesn't mean I don't understand the technology, your machine is not working right! Now, I understand why they do it, and what they probably go through every day.
[/RANT]

I yield the floor to my fellow boomers to complain why they won't use the self checkout, but yet feel entitled to clog up the self checkout attendant to ring up their purchases.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Userkare said:


> just let the self checkout attendant ring them up


I sympathize, but you're behind the curve, and are just now learning why the smart crowd still stand in line for the cashier. You may think they're dumb, but they're not - just experienced.

There is not a single time I've tested the self checkout that it doesn't have some exception to my goods and demands I get the clerk to come over and solve it. Therein lies the problem. That clerk is always busy with a ton of other people. 

You will almost always beat the self checkout by simply waiting in line. I see Walmart has eliminated all its self checkouts. Failed system.

ltr


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I was at a store yesterday with only two open checkouts. The woman on herd duty tried to direct me to the self checkout lane where they said people could scan my items for me. I chose to wait instead and try to ensure that they’d keep cashiers employed in the future. So did many people. We wound up waiting a couple extra minutes, but I didn’t hurt my back.

Went to a different store once, they had no cashiers open at all, only self checkout. Had an item that was on sale for something like 45 cents, but it wasn’t in the computer and the attendant was dealing with something else and not available. I went over to hit he desk and had them open up a cashier.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I have more than once just left my crap I was going to purchase and went to another store when this stuff happens. I avoid those stores that I know have useless cashiers as well as any store that wants a quarter or loonie to get a shopping cart...wtf...who carries money around?

Most of these stores need to learn that the most important thing in retail is to take the customers money as quick as possible. Lack of cashiers in home improvement,grocery and WalMarts is a big mistake. They need to go check out any Costco to learn how to retail.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Userkare said:


> .... when poorly implemented, and abused by dummies.
> 
> I yield the floor to my fellow boomers to complain why they won't use the self checkout, but yet feel entitled to clog up the self checkout attendant to ring up their purchases.


I agree with the poorly implemented ... bad bar codes, failing card readers, etc.

I almost always use self-checkout, 1 out of 50 times they have a "technical problem" but it's so rare it doesn't bother me. When I have a large number of items (rare, unless I'm at Costco) I use the regular checkout. 

On the flip side here's a total non-technology "human fail" ....

We run in to home depot for a cheap item, $3 or something, and hit the cashier as there is no line up. I hand the young lady a $5 bill in which she replies "that's counterfeit and I can't accept that!" ... I say "really?" and hand it over to my GF to inspect (> 10 yr banker trained in counterfeit money) and she says, "nope, it's good". The reason she thought it was no good was it was an old bill without the plastic and/or metal, so in other words, improperly trained. Rather than wasting time and going to a manager I just gave her a new style bill.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

like_to_retire said:


> You will almost always beat the self checkout by simply waiting in line. I see Walmart has eliminated all its self checkouts. Failed system.


It's the complete opposite in my area, self-checkouts expanding and almost always faster than cashier lineups. Even our small Walmarts have self-checkouts now.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

I love the self-serve checkouts!
esp. at my local SD Mart since they recently installed them . that store was notoriously slow checking out!
and can. tire too!
But once at wallymart the rollback price did not register on an iron i was buying for da wife. i called the attendant over & explained.
it was a $10 difference. she just over-rode the price & rang it it....for $10!
I think it was a $39 iron, rolled back to $29...which i got for $10. :smiley_simmons:


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I think a lot of people should watch the years and years mini series, but this is one of the best scenes. 

https://youtu.be/lX0kwVLPmD4


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> I think a lot of people should watch the years and years mini series, but this is one of the best scenes.
> 
> https://youtu.be/lX0kwVLPmD4


For a short time, the old lady sounded like Andy Serkis ( Gollum, LOTR ) Nassssty little hobbitses.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Like them or not, everyone usually has a choice to either use the automated machines, or a human cashier - whatever their reasons. If there's no lineup, I'll use the human cashier - simply because I don't want to see them become obsolete; same inside the bank if there's an open teller, I won't use the cash machine.

But... You can't have your cake and eat it too. Not wanting to wait in the cashier line, so going to the self checkout to misuse the attendant who is there to assist self checkout is just wrong! What's the problem with giving it a try, esp with 1 single item, unless just plain 'ol stubbornness. 
Of course, the store is mostly to blame for purposely not providing enough cashiers, thus nudging the customers to the self checkouts.

The store shouldn't even give the self checkout attendant the ability to serve as a regular checkout. "I'm sorry sir/madam, I don't have a terminal ( 'cash register' for the codgers ) to enter your purchases, I could help you with the automated checkout if you like".

Also, why not put a handheld wand at the self checkout? I've never seen one myself, so maybe some stores have them. It could save the attendant's time, and could have saved me some pain.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

like_to_retire said:


> I see Walmart has eliminated all its self checkouts. Failed system.
> 
> ltr


Didn't Walmart have trouble with people not paying for all their items at the self checkout? I believe they tried to have 'receipt checkers' at the door, like Costco but - legally the customer can tell them to either call the cops or pound sand.


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## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

Userkare said:


> Also, why not put a handheld wand at the self checkout? I've never seen one myself, so maybe some stores have them. It could save the attendant's time, and could have saved me some pain.


Ikea has wands for self use. It's a must for bulky items, something home improvement stores have in abundance.

Perhaps the oversight at Lowe's is one explanation for why they're struggling in Canada.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I do not use self-checkouts. I expect to be served, not serve the store by doing it myself. 

Some here may be old enough to remember when you drove into a gas station and an attendant checked your oil, topped up your windshield washer fluid and pumped your gas for you. Then the oil companies did away with their jobs and got us to do that work for them. Worked for them, not for the consumer. And no, it did not result in the price of gas going down one cent.

Self check-out to me is just another example of the seller trying to move the cost of doing business onto the buyer without giving the buyer anything in return. It just increases the sellers profits it does not decrease the buyers cost. But as P. T. Barnum said, 'there's a sucker born every minute.'

As for getting frustrated at waiting in a check-out lines, what's your rush? Is there some earth shattering event or something you have to get to in the next 15 minutes? To me it's like the idiots I see speeding and passing me, only to end up sitting at the stop light when I roll up behind them 20 seconds later. They sat 20 seconds longer than I have to and they got no further than I did anyway. Or on a long road, they maybe got to their destination 10 minutes earlier than I did. Whoopee, they win. Hilarious.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

By the way Userkare, the technology did NOT fail. It got you to the self-checkout trying to do the store's job for them. It succeeded in that purpose. I'd say it was you that failed to see what the purpose of the technology was. Did you really think it was to make things easier for YOU?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> I do not use self-checkouts. I expect to be served, not serve the store by doing it myself.


What service are you really getting that makes such a difference to you?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> What service are you really getting that makes such a difference to you?


It is not a question of 'really makes a difference' in a DIRECT way cainvest. What is the advantage to you of self-checkout? It often is no faster and if it is faster, how much faster and how much is that time savings worth in any way that 'really makes a difference to you?' 

Follow self-checkout to it's logical conclusion. It is going to only one end point, the elimination of check-out staff completely. There is no question that is where they are trying to get to, read some articles here: https://www.google.com/search?q=new...ome..69i57.25941j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Now that may not really have any negative impact on you as as customer (once they get all the bugs worked out of course, you will suffer in the meantime) but while eliminating check-out line ups entirely isn't a bad thing in one sense, what about all those check-out clerks who will be out of work? What happens to them? Or should people look at things just from a ME perspective and not care about those check-out clerks since they do not see it as impacting themselves in any negative way? That view is the view of a FOOL.

Nothing happens in isolation, all things have 'unintended consequences'. So let's suppose they do away with check-out clerks entirely. Will that add overall to the economy and jobs or will it only add to a company's profits? I think that answer is obvious. Now let's further suppose you work for a company that makes shoes. Those unemployed check-out clerks are not going to be buying a new pair of shoes anytime soon are they. So as an 'unintended consequence' you suddenly find YOURSELF being laid off and unemployed. Happy with that result? 

When the same technology is applied to all retail transactions (why would you need a clerk in a shoe store, just go in try some on, pick a pair and walk out the door with them and your credit card will be automatically charged when you walk out), how many people are you talking about putting out of work and moving their wages from being part of the overall economy to only being part of the profit of a company? 

There are few retail jobs that cannot be done away with in this regard. Then take Ontario alone and see what you are looking it. Retail represents 11% of all workers in Ontario which translates to around 750k workers. Look at the graph on the following link and you will see that while retail sales are increasing, retail employees is decreasing. It doesn't take much to figure out what continuing to move in that direction will do to retail jobs going forward. 
https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/content_pieces-eng.do?cid=12112

Go into a Hudson's Bay store today for example and you will find it very difficult to find a person on the floor to ask a question. What you will find are machines that you can hold up a tag to and scan to see what the price is or you have to find a 'Service Desk' to find a person to ask about something and then they are as likely as not to know no more about the item you are looking at buying than you do. So where is the 'help' making your decision that you used to be able to expect from staff in a store? That help is gone and the job of figuring out which toaster to buy now falls on you. Just another unintended consequence of removing retail staff.

You ask, "What service are you really getting that makes such a difference to you?" But you are asking that question in isolation cainvest and as I said, nothing happens in isolation. The question you should be asking yourself is what are all the unintended consequences that may occur as companies move away from employees and into technology that increases their profits but may harm you in many different ways.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

An auto manufacturer plant superintendent was walking through the plant with the union president, and pointing out all the shiny robots on the assembly line.

"I would like to see you collect union dues from them" the manager snickered. 

"I would like to see you sell them any vehicles" the union rep replied.

Everyone always thinks it is the "other guy" who will lose their job until it happens to them.

Technology is going to replace a lot of jobs both directly and indirectly and there is nothing to replace them. This is already well known to business and government.

The only question is how do people without a job earn a living. Hence, the merits of a universal basic income are being discussed and considered at the highest levels.

Taxing production (robot taxes) instead of labor is the only way to provide the funding to support a UBI. It will be a big part of the evolution of work.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> It is not a question of 'really makes a difference' in a DIRECT way cainvest. What is the advantage to you of self-checkout? It often is no faster and if it is faster, how much faster and how much is that time savings worth in any way that 'really makes a difference to you?'


The advantage to me is it's faster, I'm not wasting time. When I go to pay I look at the lines and almost always choose the self-checkout stickly due to speed (no waiting in line).

I thought your comment about "I expect to be served, not serve the store by doing it myself." sounded pretty clear. Ok, so you're willing to wait in a line, have someone to scan and move your items 1ft into a bag for you. In that light, why don't you use stores that get the groceries for you and you pick them up outside? That way you're likely paying for more people, one to get your stuff into a cart and a maybe cashier to process your cart, maybe another to bring the cart out to your car? Now that's service right ... just like the old gas station days! 

I'm fine with self-checkouts, things change as we go forward, some jobs get eliminated and new ones are created.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> By the way Userkare, the technology did NOT fail. It got you to the self-checkout trying to do the store's job for them. It succeeded in that purpose. I'd say it was you that failed to see what the purpose of the technology was. Did you really think it was to make things easier for YOU?


As I see it, the technology was designed to allow a single attendant to oversee multiple customer's checkout process; only intervening when there's an issue, like bulky items. The purpose - to move customers quickly through the checkout process whether or not they have someplace else to be. In my case, I didn't have anywhere to be, but my wife walks with a cane and finds it uncomfortable to stand for a long time. After a while, I told her it might be better to go wait in the car.

As someone who spent an entire career analyzing computerized systems, I believe it failed because they allow that self checkout attendant to double as a regular cashier, and thus clog up the process with customers that, for whatever stubborn boneheaded reason, didn't want to even try using the automated system. It failed because there was no handheld wand provided, that would have made it easy for the customer, me, to complete the process unaided. It failed because when I tried to make room for the bulky item that I just scanned, being that it insists that I place it in the bagging area, then complained about me lifting the items already there. 

There was absolutely nobody in the self checkout when I got there. I saw my wife with her own shopping cart headed for the other cashier line, so I waved her to come over to self checkout. She said she believed the other people in the line saw me waving and thought I was inviting them over. So, I may have been the architect of my own demise. Nonetheless, once the refugees arrived at the self checkout line, they refused to assimilate and to use the automated system, but rather wanted special treatment. I should have told 'those people' to go back to the line where they came from.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Userkare said:


> As I see it, the technology was designed to allow a single attendant to oversee multiple customer's checkout process; only intervening when there's an issue, like bulky items. The purpose - to move customers quickly through the checkout process whether or not they have someplace else to be.


One other bonus to self-checkouts is if one self-checkout is being attended too all the other ones continue to flow people through.

Remember getting into a cashier line and they need to get (or check) a price for an item ... all the people in the line have to wait while another employee (when they get there) goes to the isle and checks the price.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

cainvest said:


> The advantage to me is it's faster, I'm not wasting time. When I go to pay I look at the lines and almost always choose the self-checkout stickly due to speed (no waiting in line).
> 
> I thought your comment about "I expect to be served, not serve the store by doing it myself." sounded pretty clear. Ok, so you're willing to wait in a line, have someone to scan and move your items 1ft into a bag for you. In that light, why don't you use stores that get the groceries for you and you pick them up outside? That way you're likely paying for more people, one to get your stuff into a cart and a maybe cashier to process your cart, maybe another to bring the cart out to your car? Now that's service right ... just like the old gas station days!
> 
> I'm fine with self-checkouts, things change as we go forward, some jobs get eliminated and new ones are created.


Being a food snob, I wouldn’t want people picking out my food, especially the fresh stuff. Canned or boxed maybe but not the fresh stuff.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Just a Guy said:


> Being a food snob, I wouldn’t want people picking out my food, especially the fresh stuff. Canned or boxed maybe but not the fresh stuff.


Well then self checkouts are your friend ... nobody touching you stuff but you!


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I don’t mind them touching it, but the average store person doesn’t know good produce from bad, good cuts of meat from bad. As I said before, I’m all for employment, hard enough to find staff in a store as it is.

Ever walk into a hardware store these days? They have maybe one or two employees. For someone like me who buys by the pallet, self serve isn’t an option.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

And then in a few years, all the self-serve checkouts have to be removed because of all the thefts. If not, then everyone else have to pay higher prices. Lose-lose.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> The advantage to me is it's faster, I'm not wasting time. When I go to pay I look at the lines and almost always choose the self-checkout stickly due to speed (no waiting in line).
> 
> I thought your comment about "I expect to be served, not serve the store by doing it myself." sounded pretty clear. Ok, so you're willing to wait in a line, have someone to scan and move your items 1ft into a bag for you. In that light, why don't you use stores that get the groceries for you and you pick them up outside? That way you're likely paying for more people, one to get your stuff into a cart and a maybe cashier to process your cart, maybe another to bring the cart out to your car? Now that's service right ... just like the old gas station days!
> 
> I'm fine with self-checkouts, things change as we go forward, some jobs get eliminated and new ones are created.


So you totally ignore the rest of my response to you which showed the unintended consequences of things like self-checkout. The more such replacement of people by technology occurs, the more likely it is that YOU will lose YOUR job cainvest. I guess you didn't get the point of sags little story about you can't sell cars to robots either.

You suggest instead that new jobs will be created. Really? Which new jobs do you think the supermarkets will create once they have eliminated check-out clerks entirely? Learn to look beyond YOURSELF cainvest.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Userkare said:


> As I see it, the technology was designed to allow a single attendant to oversee multiple customer's checkout process; only intervening when there's an issue, like bulky items. The purpose - to move customers quickly through the checkout process whether or not they have someplace else to be. In my case, I didn't have anywhere to be, but my wife walks with a cane and finds it uncomfortable to stand for a long time. After a while, I told her it might be better to go wait in the car.
> 
> As someone who spent an entire career analyzing computerized systems, I believe it failed because they allow that self checkout attendant to double as a regular cashier, and thus clog up the process with customers that, for whatever stubborn boneheaded reason, didn't want to even try using the automated system. It failed because there was no handheld wand provided, that would have made it easy for the customer, me, to complete the process unaided. It failed because when I tried to make room for the bulky item that I just scanned, being that it insists that I place it in the bagging area, then complained about me lifting the items already there.
> 
> There was absolutely nobody in the self checkout when I got there. I saw my wife with her own shopping cart headed for the other cashier line, so I waved her to come over to self checkout. She said she believed the other people in the line saw me waving and thought I was inviting them over. So, I may have been the architect of my own demise. Nonetheless, once the refugees arrived at the self checkout line, they refused to assimilate and to use the automated system, but rather wanted special treatment. I should have told 'those people' to go back to the line where they came from.


Your individual little rant about what happened to YOU is fine as a starting point Userkare. But I will ask you again, do you think the self-checkout is there for your benefit for for the company's benefit? Does one attendant overseeing multiple self-checkout machines benefit you or the company? It should be obvious to anyone that it is designed to benefit the company. Whatever reasons they use to sell you on the idea of doing it yourself is up to you to decide whether you buy those ideas or not. I'm not buying it, it is for their benefit, not mine.

The only benefit to me of self-checkouts is that some people are dumb enough to use them, leaving less people in line in front of me going through a check-out with a 'dedicated to me' clerk. Let me think, do I want to checkout at a machine where there is one clerk to help 6 customers if I have a problem, or do I want to checkout where there is one machine and one clerk dedicated to helping me? Duhhh, that's a hard choice right. LOL

Even if you can't see where removing retail clerks and replacing them with a machine where you do the checking out yourself is going to lead to down the road in terms of jobs and the economy, the simple math of 1 clerk to 6 customers vs. 1 clerk to 1 customer, with you being the customer, should tell you which is customer focused and which is company profit focused.

And by the way, hurting your back was the result of you using the self-checkout, if you had had the patience to wait in line for a dedicated checkout clerk, that wouldn't have happened would it. So why isn't your rant about, 'how using a self-checkout resulted in my hurting my back and I will never do that again.'


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> And then in a few years, all the self-serve checkouts have to be removed because of all the thefts. If not, then everyone else have to pay higher prices. Lose-lose.


The other reasons I think self-serve checkouts may not stick around is all that valuable real estate around the cashiers, where they sell chocolate bars, magazines and other high margins items to people waiting in line is lost revenue. The cashiers no longer have a chance to ask people to sign up for credit or points cards.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

You are right LTR.......

I never use self-service checkouts either. Why should I cost someone a job for no good reason.

I would also use gas stations with attendants if they existed any more. I couldn't care less if I am an inconvenient customer to a business.

If it was left up to the greediest capitalists none of us would have work and then they would complain about people collecting social benefits.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

sags said:


> The other reasons I think self-serve checkouts may not stick around is all that valuable real estate around the cashiers, where they sell chocolate bars, magazines and other high margins items to people waiting in line is lost revenue. The cashiers no longer have a chance to ask people to sign up for credit or points cards.


Meh ... I've seen baskets of the chocolate bars with "Sale" signs on them where the line forms for the self service checkout. Walmart has at least fifteen feet of shelves of this stuff on the way to the checkout machines.

There have been staff wandering around, randomly asking anyone who shows interest or says hello to them for the points/CC.


Cheers


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> Your individual little rant about what happened to YOU is fine as a starting point Userkare. But I will ask you again, do you think the self-checkout is there for your benefit for for the company's benefit? Does one attendant overseeing multiple self-checkout machines benefit you or the company? It should be obvious to anyone that it is designed to benefit the company. Whatever reasons they use to sell you on the idea of doing it yourself is up to you to decide whether you buy those ideas or not. I'm not buying it, it is for their benefit, not mine.


It can be benefit to both.. 

The company can reduce staff, increase profit, and their stock value will go up; they may not reflect the savings in their prices though. This is a forum on money, isn't it? Don't you want to see our shares go up?

Since I normally shop in "off-hours", most of the people in the stores are old farts like me. Luckily, I embraced technology my whole life, instead of pining for the 'good old days'. This usually means that the self checkout lines are empty, and I can get out of the store quickly. Sure, I may just be headed home, or to grab a coffee; but since I just have XXX minutes left on this Earth, I'd rather not waste any of them standing in a line behind some old fool claiming that they're sure the item they're buying is on sale for $0.05 off, and make the cashier call someone to check.



> The only benefit to me of self-checkouts is that some people are dumb enough to use them, leaving less people in line in front of me going through a check-out with a 'dedicated to me' clerk. Let me think, do I want to checkout at a machine where there is one clerk to help 6 customers if I have a problem, or do I want to checkout where there is one machine and one clerk dedicated to helping me? Duhhh, that's a hard choice right. LOL


I try to make sure that everything I put in my cart has the UPC code, because sometimes they fall off certain items - and it's smooth sailing through the self checkout and the 'regular' checkout as well. Only possible problem is heavy/bulky items, and this was the first time that I encountered an issue. I can't say for sure, but I bet the reason that those people who came to the self checkout ( but didn't try to use them ) was because there was someone in the line with a problem that held up the entire line. Sure, the store should have opened a second cash, but they hadn't done so in the time I was there. Not that many people in the store.



> Even if you can't see where removing retail clerks and replacing them with a machine where you do the checking out yourself is going to lead to down the road in terms of jobs and the economy, the simple math of 1 clerk to 6 customers vs. 1 clerk to 1 customer, with you being the customer, should tell you which is customer focused and which is company profit focused.


Welcome to the 21st century. It's called disruptive technology for a reason. It usually has a positive cumulative effect on society, but can also lead to some people getting left behind. Who is pushing this trend? Shareholders want more ROI, so they reward the profit focused companies.




> And by the way, hurting your back was the result of you using the self-checkout, if you had had the patience to wait in line for a dedicated checkout clerk, that wouldn't have happened would it. So why isn't your rant about, 'how using a self-checkout resulted in my hurting my back and I will never do that again.'


Kind of a backwards cause / effect assumption. As I see it... Had the other line not been stalled for whatever reason, the old fogey parade would never have come to the self checkout... Had these people not been stubborn ignorant old a**holes, and at least tried to use the self checkout instead of demanding they be served by the self checkout attendant.... Then I never would have tried to lift the bags, and the attendant would have been able to immediately assist me. I guess I could have waited until all those dummies were served, and have the attendant scan the heavy items. I just couldn't believe that nobody even tried to use the self checkouts. My ranting was directed at that obstinance.


Long story, but I'll TLDR; it.... 65 y/o BIL died in 2017. Went to house, found 0 technology. No computers, no Internet, no mobile phone of any kind, TV antenna on roof. Had a bank card, but only used ATM maybe once in a year. He went to bank to pay bills at teller. I was told by tellers at that bank they tried to get him to use ATM, but he resisted. But here's the moral of the story.... He died of heart attack in bed. The land-line phone was in the kitchen. If he had a mobile phone, he might have been able to call 911 from bed. Failure to adapt can be fatal!


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> So you totally ignore the rest of my response to you which showed the unintended consequences of things like self-checkout. The more such replacement of people by technology occurs, the more likely it is that YOU will lose YOUR job cainvest. I guess you didn't get the point of sags little story about you can't sell cars to robots either.
> 
> You suggest instead that new jobs will be created. Really? Which new jobs do you think the supermarkets will create once they have eliminated check-out clerks entirely? Learn to look beyond YOURSELF cainvest.


Didn't ignore your post, I gave an example of how "you" could shop that would possibly employ more people ... guess you ignored that?

So who creates those self checkouts ... oh yeah, people! Design, assembly, programming and maintenance all done by people with jobs ... guess you're not looking beyond the cashier?


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

cainvest said:


> So who creates those self checkouts ... oh yeah, people! Design, assembly, programming and maintenance all done by people with jobs ... guess you're not looking beyond the cashier?


Better paying jobs at that! Looking back at all the technology that I helped create, I can't think of anything that directly caused people to lose their jobs, just make their job easier or more efficient. Also in some small part, save lives too. My conscience is clear.

My first job after HS graduation ( 16 y/o ) was as a retail food clerk. The goonion had me fired - literally dragged me by the collar to the door. I didn't really depend on that job, just some extra cash for Uni, but I knew right then and there that I would never ever allow myself to be in such a lowly situation again.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

If we don’t have these unioned cashiers they’ll just wind up unemployed and begging for money from the government. We pay either way.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

And on the other hand, one of the busiest and most successful retailers in the world has not just a cashier, but also a second person putting the groceries into the shopping carts.

I could just imagine the mess it would be in Costco if they relied on self checkouts........LOL.

Somehow they also manage to pay much higher wages and better benefits to employees than their competition.

Go into a busy Costco and watch how fast they roll customers through the cashier lines.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I was in the Costco Peterborough store in late August. They had self serve checkouts. Four of them as I recall, well over to the right of the cash lines. 

I used a self serve check out because I only had one item, no one was using them, and the cash lines were long. The receipt was not white, it had a tinge of colour to it and the door check person did look at it more closely than usual. Not certain if this was a trial. I do not live in that part of the world.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

ian said:


> I was in the Costco Peterborough store in late August. They had self serve checkouts. Four of them as I recall, well over to the right of the cash lines.


Awesome, I hope we get those here!


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Costco in Ottawa, Barrhaven location at least, has them. This is a case where I probably wouldn't use self checkout unless I just had an item or two; the checkout process at Costco is usually pretty quick.
Shame that I can't stand being in that store for more than 15 minutes without wanting to scream.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Userkare said:


> This is a case where I probably wouldn't use self checkout unless I just had an item or two; the checkout process at Costco is usually pretty quick.


Same, sometimes I do go in for only a couple of items so the self checkout would be nice.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> I sympathize, but you're behind the curve, and are just now learning why the smart crowd still stand in line for the cashier. You may think they're dumb, but they're not - just experienced.
> 
> There is not a single time I've tested the self checkout that it doesn't have some exception to my goods and demands I get the clerk to come over and solve it. Therein lies the problem. That clerk is always busy with a ton of other people.
> 
> ...


Whenever it is an option, I exclusively try to use self-checkouts. It is almost inevitably faster, except for really big baskets. I also like the lack of rush to review and verify pricing as I'm checking out.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Eder said:


> I have more than once just left my crap I was going to purchase and went to another store when this stuff happens. I avoid those stores that I know have useless cashiers as well as any store that wants a quarter or loonie to get a shopping cart...wtf...who carries money around?
> 
> Most of these stores need to learn that the most important thing in retail is to take the customers money as quick as possible. Lack of cashiers in home improvement,grocery and WalMarts is a big mistake. They need to go check out any Costco to learn how to retail.


I find Costco has among the worst front end experiences imaginable. I never wait in line longer at checkout than I wait at Costco. It is just about everything else about the store that makes me willing to tolerate the shitshow that is Costco's checkout experience.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

fireseeker said:


> Ikea has wands for self use. It's a must for bulky items, something home improvement stores have in abundance.
> 
> Perhaps the oversight at Lowe's is one explanation for why they're struggling in Canada.


Fun story. My bathroom vent fan died, and I went to Lowes to buy a replacement motor/fan (not a complete unit, you can just replace the motor/fan). I bought it, took it home, opened it up and it turns out it was a filthy, used fan with the wire leads sheared like it got pinched when someone tried to install it. Someone must have returned this fan and the store just put back it on the shelf without checking it (returns fraud). I was a bit annoyed at the waste of my time, but no big deal. I go back to Lowes to return/ask for an exchange. The customer service desk was not authorized to do this, so they had to page an assistant store manager. ASM comes over, I explain what I found. They say that they can't accept the old fan unit as a return. I explain again that this is exactly what I walked out of the store with--they sold me a defective product. ASM clearly doesn't believe me and is suggesting I am trying to fraudulently return the dead fan. I suggest we open up another unit from the shelf and compare. We do this, and yet again this one is a dirty old used fan. We open up another one--same thing. At this point, I just want the f-ing replacement unit. We open up another one and this one actually looks new, though it is missing all the documentation. Appears to be no damage. Good enough for me, though. I get a halfhearted apology from the ASM.

I kind of decided that Lowes is dead to me for wasting my time and accusing me of fraud. If they didn't have any units left in the store to check, I'm sure they would have stiffed me on the return. As if I would waste my time trying to defraud the store out of 50 or 60 bucks.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> I do not use self-checkouts. I expect to be served, not serve the store by doing it myself.
> 
> Some here may be old enough to remember when you drove into a gas station and an attendant checked your oil, topped up your windshield washer fluid and pumped your gas for you. Then the oil companies did away with their jobs and got us to do that work for them. Worked for them, not for the consumer. And no, it did not result in the price of gas going down one cent.
> 
> ...


This is kind of like people who moan about poor airline service and how the seats keep on getting more cramped. Consumers vote with their wallets. Airlines degrade service because people choose a cheaper fare over better service. Just like people like the service at a full service gas station but don't want to pay for it. I personally like pay at the pump self-serve. I am in and out fast. I refuse to buy gas at stations that don't let you pay at the pump as I have no time to wait behind people who need to spend a few minutes choosing the perfect scratch card while their car is tying up a pump. I never go to convenience stores, but had to go to one recently to pick up a package. While they were figuring out how to release the package to me, I was kind of floored by the stream of people coming in to buy smokes and lotto tickets. Convenience stores are just glorified drug dealers/bookies.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest said:


> One other bonus to self-checkouts is if one self-checkout is being attended too all the other ones continue to flow people through.
> 
> Remember getting into a cashier line and they need to get (or check) a price for an item ... all the people in the line have to wait while another employee (when they get there) goes to the isle and checks the price.


Or the dreaded 'price matcher'. Grocery store chains allow customers to show other store flyers and price match. Some customers have the decency to warn other people in line after them that they plan to have the cashier to themselves for 5-10 mins. I've been burned a few times, so I know to avoid the lines where a person has a stack of flyers, but you can use an app (flipp) for the same thing these days and it is hard to spot/avoid.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> So you totally ignore the rest of my response to you which showed the unintended consequences of things like self-checkout. The more such replacement of people by technology occurs, the more likely it is that YOU will lose YOUR job cainvest. I guess you didn't get the point of sags little story about you can't sell cars to robots either.
> 
> You suggest instead that new jobs will be created. Really? Which new jobs do you think the supermarkets will create once they have eliminated check-out clerks entirely? Learn to look beyond YOURSELF cainvest.


Better go buy some buggy whips, lest you lose YOUR job. 

Grocery stores are ploughing the labour they save from self-checkouts into 'personal shoppers' who assemble online orders and bring it out to your car. Or in the service areas, or keeping the shelves stocked. Or, lowering prices to remain competitive.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Your individual little rant about what happened to YOU is fine as a starting point Userkare. But I will ask you again, do you think the self-checkout is there for your benefit for for the company's benefit? Does one attendant overseeing multiple self-checkout machines benefit you or the company? It should be obvious to anyone that it is designed to benefit the company. Whatever reasons they use to sell you on the idea of doing it yourself is up to you to decide whether you buy those ideas or not. I'm not buying it, it is for their benefit, not mine.
> 
> The only benefit to me of self-checkouts is that some people are dumb enough to use them, leaving less people in line in front of me going through a check-out with a 'dedicated to me' clerk. Let me think, do I want to checkout at a machine where there is one clerk to help 6 customers if I have a problem, or do I want to checkout where there is one machine and one clerk dedicated to helping me? Duhhh, that's a hard choice right. LOL
> 
> ...


I am familiar with the research, many retailers add self-checkouts because a segment of their customer base demands it. They see marked customer satisfaction increase when they add them. They can't use it as an excuse to worsen service on manned checkout lanes, as a different segment of their customers demand that, and those customers can always shop elsewhere. Some retailers got in trouble recently from being a bit overeager in herding customers toward self-checkout. It is a balance. On balance though, I think consumers like the convenience and reduced cost and choose that over paying more for more service.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Didn't ignore your post, I gave an example of how "you" could shop that would possibly employ more people ... guess you ignored that?
> 
> So who creates those self checkouts ... oh yeah, people! Design, assembly, programming and maintenance all done by people with jobs ... guess you're not looking beyond the cashier?


Prefers low-paid minimum wage clerk vs high skilled engineers and software developers.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

andrewf said:


> Prefers low-paid minimum wage clerk vs high skilled engineers and software developers.


Assuming the tech jobs aren't being performed in India or by Artificial Intelligence.

I listened to a radio show a couple years ago about new radiologists trying to find residency placement in hospitals and full time work. 

Much of the work has been replaced by low paid radiologists in India performed over the internet.

I was in the hospital and had some Xrays taken. The tech put up the images to the light and I found it interesting that AI technology now reads the images better than a human could.

The radiologist in India can now join the radiologist in Canada without a job.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Scary.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> Assuming the tech jobs aren't being performed in India or by Artificial Intelligence.


Welcome to the global economy, it's been around for a while now if you haven't noticed.

BTW, artificial intelligence doesn't exist yet ...


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Welcome to the global economy, it's been around for a while now if you haven't noticed.


 ... yep, and look at the gazillions of $$$$ saved ... a boom for cybersecurity too .... with your data floating globally.



> BTW, artificial intelligence doesn't exist yet ...


... yep, and I can't wait to get a real robot to do my housework. Not that shift-make zoomer-broom or whatever they got in the market now.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I would think medical diagnostic technology is getting pretty close to stand alone AI now.

A "virtual" colonoscopy is now possible, through a CT scanner. The machine takes thousands of images from different images using a contrast agent. The pictures are then used by the computer to create an accurate 3D view of the colon. The AI of the procedure is the computer analysis of the data, which makes decisions on any "irregularities" that may be a problem and which ones aren't. Computer assisted radiology performs a similar function and after examining the xrays it alerts the techs to possible problem areas.

That is pretty comparable to the intelligence ability of the human brain, although it isn't fully developed yet. 

What is most promising of the newest technology is that it in general it has been shown to make fewer diagnostic errors than humans.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> I would think medical diagnostic technology is getting pretty close to stand alone AI now.
> 
> A "virtual" colonoscopy is now possible, through a CT scanner. The machine takes thousands of images from different images using a contrast agent. The pictures are then used by the computer to create an accurate 3D view of the colon. The AI of the procedure is the computer analysis of the data, which makes decisions on any "irregularities" that may be a problem and which ones aren't. Computer assisted radiology performs a similar function and after examining the xrays it alerts the techs to possible problem areas.
> 
> ...


Not close at all, it's just a program pouring over lots of data ... no AI there.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

andrewf said:


> I kind of decided that Lowes is dead to me for wasting my time and accusing me of fraud.


Waaaaayyyy back when Home Depot first opened in Canada, there was a TV interview with some company executive. They were asked what they thought were the differences between American and Canadian customers. The answer was that if an American customer was upset, they would demand to see a manager, pound on the desk, and demand satisfaction; then come back the next week. A Canadian would quietly leave the store and never return. That's why they would try to make sure every Canadian's experience in their store was a positive one. 

I think their assumption about Canadians was bullshit. We will complain, demand to see the manager, pound on the desk, demand satisfaction, and *then *never come back.


I'm always on the lookout for packages that seemed to have already been opened; usually taped closed with Scotch Tape. If I even suspect that a product isn't 'factory sealed', I ask someone if I can open it and check the contents before paying. I've never had any resistance to that request, and have found parts were missing... Caveat emptor!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Not close at all, it's just a program pouring over lots of data ... no AI there.


That is how the human brain operates too. What is lacking in AI is human emotion, which is a liability in areas where total objectivity is necessary.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Userkare said:


> Waaaaayyyy back when Home Depot first opened in Canada, there was a TV interview with some company executive. They were asked what they thought were the differences between American and Canadian customers. The answer was that if an American customer was upset, they would demand to see a manager, pound on the desk, and demand satisfaction; then come back the next week. A Canadian would quietly leave the store and never return. That's why they would try to make sure every Canadian's experience in their store was a positive one.
> 
> I think their assumption about Canadians was bullshit. We will complain, demand to see the manager, pound on the desk, demand satisfaction, and *then *never come back.
> 
> ...


Actually, he was describing a Brit customer more so than a Canadian customer. However, from his point of view as an American, Canadians are closer to the Brit model than to the American model and in that sense he is correct. Think of it in terms of percentages. So, 98% of Brits will just 'vote with their feet' and only 2% complain; 75% of Canadians will vote with their feet while 25% will complain; 2% of Americans will vote with their feet while 98% will complain and demand satistfaction. 

If you were in his shoes as an American, it isn't hard to see how he would say what he did. However, that was in the PAST. We now complain as much as Americans do and Brits complain even more!
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canadians-are-world-class-complainers-survey-1.858405

From that link:
[ICanadians won't tolerate bad products and service anymore," said Jane Steele Moore, a spokeswoman for Complaints Are Us Inc., a complaints concierge company that sponsored the survey. "Yes, we're known for being polite, but we've learned that we can get results if we complain."][/I]

The operative word being 'anymore'.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> That is how the human brain operates too. What is lacking in AI is human emotion, which is a liability in areas where total objectivity is necessary.


Spend at least a few decades programming computers or at least a 5 years learning AI programming then maybe you'll understand the difference.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Customer returns are quite the problem for business, especially retailers.

We had a big dealer make a pre-Christmas return claim for 6,000 spark plugs and all that was in the box was 1 plug. He got paid .....Merry Christmas.

My sister worked at Sears and always complained how busy they were after New Years, when women brought back clothes they wore on New Year's Night.

Amazon had a terrible problem with returns. People used to order different sizes and colors of the same item and then return all the ones they didn't want.

On Youtube, there are videos of people who buy pallet loads of assorted customer returns for dirt cheap...buyer beware. They sell the stuff at flea markets and second hand stores.

I don't know what Amazon does, but when our Dell ordered Samsung television arrived broken we had to deal with Samsung directly.

That......is my biggest beef with retailers. They sell the stuff and then refer customers back to the supplier. That used to be the retailer's job to sort it all out.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Sags obviously has never had a cat scan. There are a lot of people involved. First there is the nurse who installs the IV lines, then prepares the during contrast. Then there are the nurses who hook up the iv contrast and position you properly. Then there are the techs who press the button, administer the contrast, and make sure the pictures are clear and of the correct area. Finally there is the nurse who unhooks the IV and makes sure you’re not having an adverse reaction to the contrast. 

Sure ai may be able to replace the person looking at the scans, but that part is relatively minor in the whole process.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

At our hospital the techs do everything. If it is a busy procedure they may have 2 techs in the room, one moving the patient around and the other watching the screen.

It is a simple non invasive test and there is no need for a surgical team on standby. When I had one done, I had to drink 2 quarts of contrast before I even went in.

The techs are still needed to ensure patient safety and that the test is done properly. It is the white chalk outline of the missing radiologist on the wall that tells the tale.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Spend at least a few decades programming computers or at least a 5 years learning AI programming then maybe you'll understand the difference.


Article from almost 2 years ago. It looks like AI in radiology is already well established in medical diagnostics.

https://www.itnonline.com/article/how-artificial-intelligence-will-change-medical-imaging

AI has advanced to the point where it is being extended to oncology.

https://www.itnonline.com/videos

I watched a program that said the breakthoughs in AI technology in the medical field are happening so fast that health providers can't keep up with the developments.

The biggest problem is securing the funding to acquire very expensive technology.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> Article from almost 2 years ago. It looks like AI in radiology is already well established in medical diagnostics.


What the media calls AI is completely different than actual AI. It's be turned into a "buzz word" by the media but until a machine passes (at the very least) the turing test ... there is no AI.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Whenever I read about AI taking over people's jobs, this song pops into my head.

1st Man:
I think.
I think I am.
Therefore I am.
I think.

AI:
Of course you are, my bright little star.
I'm miles and miles of files.
Pretty files of your forefathers fruit.
And now to suit our great computer, you're magnetic ink!

1st Man:
I'm more than that.
I know I am.
At least I think I must be.

2nd Man;
There you go lad.
Keep as cool as you can.
Face piles of trials with smiles.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.
And keep on thinking free.


Moody Blues, 4/69 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AukFsBv2oDY


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest, what you are thinking of when it comes to AI is probably more accurately called Artificial General Intelligence (AGI), or AI that is broadly capable in many domains. Current AI tends to be very good (or superhuman) at very specific domains. AI does not imply sentience or awareness. You can have AGI that is not sentient as well. Doesn't make it less potentially dangerous!

I think people are seeing this wrongly. AI replacing human labour is Good Thing. This is all part of making the pie bigger. It means CAT scans will be cheaper and more broadly available when people need them. The challenge of AI disruption is not that a lack of abundance, but how that abundance is distributed. We are running the risk of a billionaire (soon to be trillionaire) class capturing virtually all the upside.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> cainvest, what you are thinking of when it comes to AI is probably more accurately called Artificial General Intelligence (AGI), or AI that is broadly capable in many domains. Current AI tends to be very good (or superhuman) at very specific domains. AI does not imply sentience or awareness. You can have AGI that is not sentient as well. Doesn't make it less potentially dangerous!


Yes, the term AI has changed over the many years and I agree, it could use more accurate definitions. Many companies and the media now use it as a cool "buzz word" making it seem like "something is thinking for you", in a general sense and of course the lines are blurred.

Being in the industry myself, I see it as a misuse of the word ... but it sounds cool to people! 

Like for x-ray scanning or simple face detection on your smartphone ... is it AI or just the use of image edge detection algorithms that outputs yes/no based on predetermined shapes it has in it's database?

Most of what I see when they use the term AI is just common programming, albeit sometimes fairly complex, but really boils down to "If this then that" senarios ... in other words simple programming blocks. I guess to me AI will always hold a "sentient" feel to it, a true ability to think for itself in a general sense and not for specific tasks that are done faster than humans. It's like comparing a car's ABS system to Sonny from "I Robot" movie.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Most of the recent 'AI' buzz and recent success is from machine learning using deep neural nets. It isn't all smoke and mirrors. This really was a breakthrough about 5 or so years ago. When I was studying CS about 10 years ago AI was seen as a failed promise, and often just glorified search algorithms. Then came along ML and over the course of a few months, speech to text, image recognition, translation etc went from considerably worse than humans to better than human. It still works much better in some domains than others, but it is eerily effective.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

*The retail Gods are listening!*

Went into Home Depot in Barrhaven today for a few more painting supplies. Got to the self checkout, and lo and behold, there was now a handheld scanner for customer to use. 

Easy peasy, no injuries this time .:cocksure:


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

But sometimes the algorithms need work: Sexualized onions: Facebook lifts ban on Newfoundland advertisement for seeds

Facebook flagged the ads for onions for being overly sexual.


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