# Selling without a realtor



## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

I came across this website, www.realtysellersrealestate.ca and it's got me thinking about selling without a realtor. 

They will list your home for FREE on MLS, (you do all the work and selling) and if you are buying another home, they will give you about 1.25% cash back on the buyer's commission, once the deal is completed. 

You can use a lawyer for the paperwork when completing the sales transaction. I already found a lawyer that will do this, for a few extra hundred bucks. (can't remember the exact cost, it was under a thousand but more than a few hundred).

With this route, you get exposure with a MLS listing. You would have to answer all the phone calls, set up showings and wait for an offer. I would assume you could price slightly under other listed prices, to be competitive and lure buyers in. 

I was just wondering if anyone has sold without a realtor and what to expect.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I take it you still have to pay the buying agent's commission?
If not, buying agents just won't show your house, regardless of its merits.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2011)

I did ... posted somewhere here ... short story, the neighbors son expressed an interest in the house, we agreed (not right away) on a price, we sat down at the kitchen table and filled out one of those stationary store agreement to purchase forms ... he signed, I did not ... I took it to my lawyer ... he looked it over, no worries ... and my involvement after that was move my stuff and sign some papers.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Yeah it's so simple, reatlors really make it out to be a huge deal for nothing.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

jamesbe said:


> Yeah it's so simple, reatlors really make it out to be a huge deal for nothing.


Agreed - with the popularity of MLS/realtor.ca in most cases there's little to do beyond arranging the paperwork with the lawyer and arranging a good home inspection. Plus, if you do your homework, ask around the neighbourhood, etc you will find out a fair bit about the house you're interested in.

The only reason we use realtors is because work pays for it all, so it's less work for us.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

You also need to be careful because you don't necessarily know what the market is. I have people coming around asking me to sell in order to save the real estate fees. This sounds great and you will get roughly what people are listing for excellent what a great deal and now I will dance.

Then you find out later that people are getting $200,000 over asking price which is happening all over Richmond BC where I live. You just got screwed over boom bang and done.

Also there are problems like discloser and so on being done right. I am not an agent so in conclusion how about trying something like 1% realty, has anyone ever tried them.


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

yup, housing prices are skyrocketing. I heard $250,000 over asking price. of course, if they were using realtors then the realtors would know what the price should be and there wouldn't be pricing so high above asking.

oh wait, nearly everyone uses realtors. so basically, we have learned that realtors really are idiots (the majority, not all). they can't even come within a couple hundred grand of asking price. nice!

looks like these guys just got screwed out of another $20,000...


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## Pigzfly (Dec 2, 2010)

sprocket1200 said:


> yup, housing prices are skyrocketing. I heard $250,000 over asking price. of course, if they were using realtors then the realtors would know what the price should be and there wouldn't be pricing so high above asking.
> 
> oh wait, nearly everyone uses realtors. so basically, we have learned that realtors really are idiots (the majority, not all). they can't even come within a couple hundred grand of asking price. nice!
> 
> looks like these guys just got screwed out of another $20,000...


It's a sales tactic, it doesn't necessarily mean that the realtor's don't know what it will sell for/around.

ie - Apartment in Calgary, right on the MLS lists that closed-envelope bids will be accepted up until XXpm on X date. Creates a sense of urgency, it is priced under market value, etc. The whole point is to start a bidding war.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

We are lucky to live in a condo where usually there are 1-4 other identical units for sale. So you can gauge a price around that and assume they sold around the listing price.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Pigzfly said:


> It's a sales tactic, it doesn't necessarily mean that the realtor's don't know what it will sell for/around.
> 
> ie - Apartment in Calgary, right on the MLS lists that closed-envelope bids will be accepted up until XXpm on X date. Creates a sense of urgency, it is priced under market value, etc. The whole point is to start a bidding war.


We accepted bids on our north Toronto house in 2009. Got three bids, all over list price. Took the highest bid that was $25K above list.


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

kcowan said:


> We accepted bids on our north Toronto house in 2009. Got three bids, all over list price. Took the highest bid that was $25K above list.


I LOVE it. same suckers that we will buy from for cash cheap, when they can't make the payments!


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## Oilers82 (Jan 17, 2011)

Not necessarily suckers...I mean, sometimes you can't help when you need to buy. Renting is not always a feasible or good option for people.

After getting married my wife wanted a bigger place. I owned a 700 sq ft condo which I sold, for over asking price in a bidding war. I told her I thought the market was too overpriced and asked if she'd want to rent for a couple years. She hates the hassle of moving constantly, so we just decided to buy another place at current market price. Whatever, its a roof over our heads and we know we'll be living there long term. I have 50% of my new townhouse paid off so I don't really care if the market crashes..I'll still be living there. I'd probably have enough $ to buy some income properties if the market does crash too.

Anyways back to OP's discussion...I think you're all forgetting the hassle of doing all the showings yourself. It may be easy enough for someone who knows and follows the market to do the pricing themselves, but do you all honestly have time to show your place to people 24/7? I for one would be way too busy with work, friends and family to bother with that.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2011)

dogcom said:


> You also need to be careful because you don't necessarily know what the market is ...


If a person is serious about selling something, they really need to 1st determine the value. I have here one such determination in the form of a "letter of opinion" provided for a fee by a realtor. Attachments include detail on similar properties, what they comprise, what they sold for, a recommended initial list price. A person might call their lawyer for a list of names/recommendations that they use e.g. to settle estates.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Oilers82 said:


> snip... but do you all honestly have time to show your place to people 24/7? I for one would be way too busy with work, friends and family to bother with that.


This is a PITA, but 24/7? Typically it's just a few showings and or open houses. Most showings end up on weekends or evenings because buyers work too.

If your job is flexible you can work from home for those few day time showings. If your job is not flexible then well, either don't do it yourself or just tell buyers you need to come evening / weekends.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Oilers82 said:


> Anyways back to OP's discussion...I think you're all forgetting the hassle of doing all the showings yourself. It may be easy enough for someone who knows and follows the market to do the pricing themselves, but do you all honestly have time to show your place to people 24/7? I for one would be way too busy with work, friends and family to bother with that.


Is the hassle worth it?

Consider an average single detached house in Edmonton $355,270.

Say you save only 1.5% by selling yourself or going with a low commish agent. Thanks $5,329.

If you make $64k annual in your day job, you could take a month off to try and sell you place and 'break even'. If you do showings on your own time...


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Very good points. I'd like to note, if using the website I posted above, it puts your listing on MLS. (for free)

Do you think all the showings are most likely to be arraigned by the buyer's realtor anyway? (not just a private buyer walking in with no salesman)


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

No idea.

I know the 2 times we have used realtors that WE were the active ones looking up listings, and if (it never happened) someone posted they weren't going to use a realtor I would be attracted.

Just put some effort in the listing, run some open houses, price correctly (you might be able to use some of your city assessed values) - or hire a fee-for service realtor who you can simply ask to pull info on comps in your area.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Jungle said:


> Very good points. I'd like to note, if using the website I posted above, it puts your listing on MLS. (for free)
> 
> Do you think all the showings are most likely to be arraigned by the buyer's realtor anyway? (not just a private buyer walking in with no salesman)


For all but 2 of my 20 showings a realtor came in so I didn't need to be there. Just have a lockbox on the door.


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## Oilers82 (Jan 17, 2011)

I guess you guys raise some good points too. As long as you can field the calls/emails during work, then yes you don't necessarily need to be there to show the place and the buyer's realtor can do that work for you.

I guess in my situation, I'd done some homework on comparable recent sales within my building and area and thought I'd come up with an asking price of $349k. My realtor assessed my condo and immediately thought it would be worth more given the condition that mine was in compared to others. He suggested that we ask $369k instead. I would've never dared to have that as an asking price and at first I was hesitant. It sold 3 days later for over asking, so I'm fairly certain he got me more $ value than I would've received on my own.

In the end, to each, his own. There are merits to both methods.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Oiler82 you had a good experience like some have had with financial advisors. And then again we have all heard the opposite is often the case.

So what have we learned? 

In investing we do our own research and that can take years before we are comfortable. I am sure the same applies to real estate, so if you work hard and do the research with experience you can then sell by owner.


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## Montrealer (Sep 13, 2010)

> I came across this website, www.realtysellersrealestate.ca and it's got me thinking about selling without a realtor.
> 
> They will list your home for FREE on MLS, (you do all the work and selling) and if you are buying another home, they will give you about 1.25% cash back on the buyer's commission, once the deal is completed.
> 
> ...


Would you go into court without a lawyer to fight a law suit? Would you do your own taxes and book keeping if you owned a big business? Would you perform surgery on yourself if you needed it?

Leave real estate to real estate professionals and here is why:

*1) They have access to the MLS, comparables and can expose your listing to more people and prospective buyers than you can.

2) They do this for a living and know the market, business and trends.

3) They have contacts and can sell your house faster than you can.*

The list goes on and on, now look at it this way! You can sign up for a discount brokerage and basically sell your own house online or do the showings yourself, but do you really want to do that? The difference is this:

* 1) Selling with a real estate professional *is like taking your car into a garage and they offer you a courtesy car in return, tell you not to worry about a thing and to pick up your car when you call them, the car will be clean, ready to go and in better shape than before you brought it in.

* 2) Selling yourself *is like taking your car into a garage and having the mechanic give you a wrench, filters, rag and pan to do all the work on your own, not guarantee that your car will be fixed and to let him know when it's done so that he can charge you.

There are many discount brokers out there and people offering to sell your house for 1% or even a flat rate fee, but good luck selling it in time, have open houses, the right marketing and proper paperwork bring done.


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

pretty good PR for yourselves Montrealer.

only one problem with the last #2 point. when I do the work myself on my car, the garage doesn't charge me. I save tons of money. I also get to buy some tools that I didn't have before and it is great personal development. be fair with your assessment of the situation, even though you are completely biased...


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

sprocket1200 said:


> pretty good PR for yourselves Montrealer.
> 
> only one problem with the last #2 point. when I do the work myself on my car, the garage doesn't charge me. I save tons of money. I also get to buy some tools that I didn't have before and it is great personal development. be fair with your assessment of the situation, even though you are completely biased...


+1

Just like wrenching on a car, one can learn what it takes to sell a house.

Even the competition bureau has deemed former practices as unfair, and the legal representation argument is often used to scare potential DIYs away. Those things can also be learned and teaming up with a good lawyer (whether you sell on your own or through a realtor) is critical.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Montrealer said:


> Would you go into court without a lawyer to fight a law suit? Would you do your own taxes and book keeping if you owned a big business? Would you perform surgery on yourself if you needed it?
> 
> Leave real estate to real estate professionals and here is why:
> 
> ...


Before I comment on your post in more detail, I'd like to consider both sides. Yes I do agree there are advantages with using a realtor. WHo doesn't like things easy? Who doesn't like someone experienced to take care of it? 
I love sitting in the easy chair. But this does come at a price. 

If I think my house is in a market where it's going to be a challenge or impossible to sell, then yes I would consider a realtor to help with marketing and selling.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Not to get too off-topic here, but montrealer has a point, even if it may come across as a little biased. I am not disputing the many valid points to having a realtor. I used one myself in my last home sale and would likely do it again. I just wish they didn't have to take so much money. The increase in home prices over the past 10 years has in many cases doubled the revenue of an RE agent, who is doing no more extra work today that they were not doing 10 years ago when the selling prices, and thus their take home $ was much less. High high prices now mean that sellers are paying out a lot of cash that seems increasingly hard to justify.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Montrealer said:


> Would you go into court without a lawyer to fight a law suit? Would you do your own taxes and book keeping if you owned a big business? Would you perform surgery on yourself if you needed it?


Ok I see the point you are making, saying to use a professionals for your services. I would agree with this when you can not otherwise do yourself. The questions you pose can not really be said no to, in that yes, we do need a talented person (doctor) with 15+ years of school and many years of experience to cut open your body and perform surgery successfully. 

An accountant to do your books for a large business, lawyer to fight a law suit, both have all gone to school for many years to build the knowledge and skills to do this. You can't just learn this overnight. 

A realtor takes a course over a few hours and that's it. It's just a salesman position. You don't need 15+ years of school and operating experience like a surgain to sell house. 

Your examples are extreme to express your point, but also not applicable to support your point. 



Montrealer said:


> Leave real estate to real estate professionals and here is why:
> 
> *1) They have access to the MLS, comparables and can expose your listing to more people and prospective buyers than you can.
> 
> ...


Whoa where do I start. 
We have other indentical units in our building that we can base the price on. If we want to be sure, we could offer the brokerage a few extra bucks to pull some sold data on similar units. 

The market and treads are also posted with sales numbers on the local real estate board. They even break it down, area by area, so you can see what areas are hot. 

The contacts to sell is just other realtors calling you. Sure it's possible. I would say the majority of customers comes from the marketing on MLS. I don't think we'll really have a problem in this area. 

With the mechanic thing, I see what you are trying to say. With some research and tools, I'm sure the job can be done properly. I don't think it's something most can't handle.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Not to get too off-topic here, but montrealer has a point, even if it may come across as a little biased. I am not disputing the many valid points to having a realtor. I used one myself in my last home sale and would likely do it again. I just wish they didn't have to take so much money. The increase in home prices over the past 10 years has in many cases doubled the revenue of an RE agent, who is doing no more extra work today that they were not doing 10 years ago when the selling prices, and thus their take home $ was much less. High high prices now mean that sellers are paying out a lot of cash that seems increasingly hard to justify.


+1

Real estate agents should be paid for the work they do - not a percentage of the house sale. Another issue is that it is no more work to sell a $800k home than it is a $400k, but the commission is twice as much.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

There are a set of conditions that justify using a realtor.
1) I don't know the market
2) I am unaware how to sell
3) I am biased about my home
4) I lack the contacts of potential buyers
5) I lack the time to research the market or arrange showings...etc, etc.

For many these are show stoppers. Maybe not for DIY types. But DIY types are in the minority in most fields.

I do my own taxes. But most people don't.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

*


Montrealer said:



Would you go into court without a lawyer to fight a law suit? Would you do your own taxes and book keeping if you owned a big business? Would you perform surgery on yourself if you needed it?

Umm, these people go to university and then graduate school, they are indeed professionals real estate agents take correspondence courses and are as a group ill-educated. Their main skill is sales. Comparing a real estate agent to a lawyer, accountant or doctor is misdirection at best. 

Leave real estate to real estate professionals and here is why:

1) They have access to the MLS, comparables and can expose your listing to more people and prospective buyers than you can.

Anyone can have access to the MLS now.

2) They do this for a living and know the market, business and trends.

Most Real Estate agents don't last one year in the business, OREA and CREA have a separate business of selling their course at high prices to people who are completely unsuited for the job. They don't care they make their money off the courses and high fees for licensing. They look more like a direct marketing business such as Amway than a profession. At any one time look at all the ads on craigslist or kijiji promising $100,000 per year income for agents. Then look at the ads for medical, accountant and legal professions. Compare

3) They have contacts and can sell your house faster than you can.

Click to expand...

*


Montrealer said:


> *Maybe.. maybe not. Depends on the luck of the draw and who you get. Real Estate agents are not omnipotent. In fact, there are a rather high quantity of agents who think nothing of overpricing a home to get the listing and letting the owner wait and hope. In some areas homes sell themselves a trained monkey could open the door to let people in and have similar success.
> *
> The list goes on and on, now look at it this way! You can sign up for a discount brokerage and basically sell your own house online or do the showings yourself, but do you really want to do that? The difference is this:
> 
> ...


*Oh and full service agents do these things? Lets discuss the enormous quantity of agents who don't do open houses, put an ad in the paper, or even spell properly on the offer of purchase and sale. That's why a lawyer has to supervise every single transaction and their liabilities and omissions insurance does the heavy lifting. 90% of agents put an ad on the MLS and never lift another finger. *

Real Estate Commissions are extremely poor value for homeowners in this country. $20,000 (commision on an average house in Toronto) is equivalent to 25% of a whole year's annual income (average Toronto family salary $78,000) One of the spouses could quit their job for 6 months and devote that time to marketing their house for the price of hiring a real estate agent.

The system is entirely broken for everybody... the real estate agent included because 75% of the commission doesn't even go in the pocket of the guy that did the selling. Then the poor sap has to pay for all his fees, signs, business cards, desk fees, phone fees and whatever other charges his broker can dream up. Quite frankly it's direct marketing at it's finest because people don't even realize that it's direct marketing. Meanwhile the agent goes around thinking he's doing something wrong at his job and he's deficient because he isn't even able to support his family properly. 

Does that mean that a real estate agent doesn't provide some value? No but they aren't professionals and THEY AREN'T A NECESSITY. 

I too work for commission, I rent house for a living, for people who can't do it or don't want to...I do this all the time, I am better at it than the average bear because of practice. I have 2 years of schooling under my belt and 15 years of experience. Am I essential, no. Do I act professional yes. Am I a doctor, lawyer or accountant no... Can people with a modicum of common sense rent their own property? Yes. 

The same for selling your home, you can buy an agreement of purchase and sale for 9.99 at Staples. You need a lawyer anyways, what's the difference? It's nonsensical to think that two ordinary reasonable people can't sit down at a table and figure out a fair price for both of them and agree on a price. 

More and more people are going to migrate to selling on their own, Keep in mind that when you have barely any equity it doesn't make sense to give it all to a real estate agent. Even with a 25 year am you don't have the equity to pay a realtor after five years in a flat market. See the way it's structured you never see the money paid to the agent. It'll be a different story when people have no equity and need to write a check for your valuable services. 

My friend sold her own house and the hardest thing about it was dealing with all the rude real estate agents calling her and heckling her. Do you know how many real estate liars called her? A favorite ploy was the I have a buyer routine. She offered to sign a listing limited to the showing only that would pay the agent full commission. At least 10 agents called with this lie. None showed up with their "buyers" they just wanted her listing for 90 days and throw it up on the MLS. 

I've been dealing with real estate agents for a long time... I almost became one. I have a policy that I don't pay to work for anyone and real estate is 100% paying to work like a dog and giving your hard earned dollars away. At that time I did an unpaid internship for an agent and she even had to pay to use the company logo on her business cards... then there was the old lady who got ripped off $60,000 on a sideways deal that never hit the MLS. 

So anyone who wants to sell their house privately to save the commission has my full support. Quite frankly, if full service real estate gents weren't in such illegal, anti competitive collusion to not show the lower commission properties that would work. CREA has been given a monopoly on real estate sales in this country. The fees charged are outrageous compared to other countries.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Very well written, thank you Berubeland. I like how you mentioned the average salary in Toronto is $78,000. I assume this is before income tax. 

So really in your example, if take home pay is $50,000, (after tax and deductions) and you give the realtor's $20,000 (average commission in Toronto, as you say), it would be like 40% of your yearly take-home-pay, going to commission.


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