# Are we buying too much crap?



## lb71 (Apr 3, 2009)

I was up north on the weekend, and stopped into the local Wal Mart to pick up some items. I have not been to a Wal Mart in a number of years, but was shocked at the price tag on a lot of items. T-shirts or shorts for $6 (not the latest trends). A two pack of my contract solution for $13 ($15 at Costco, and I thought that was cheap). Two glass baby bottles for $4 (My wife said she paid $10 each). Everytime I checked out the price of something I was floored. 

This place was built to sell us stuff we don't need. It's like a drug. It was hard to control myself. You don't need the actual item, but cannot resist because it's so cheap. I saw a portable bbq for $30. The propane tank was $10. I had no need for it, but thought to myself, "If I had to go on a picnic, I would buy this and trash it afterwards." Like Costco, if you don't stick to your list, you could end up buying twice what you came for.

It got me thinking, a lot of the stuff in there is crap. It is cheaply made and made in China for the most part. It won't last long, but we don't care. Look how cheap it was. If I have to buy another one in a few years time, no problem. 

It reminded me of a conversation I had with a co-worker last fall. We were discussing out weekend, and I said I was tuning up the lawn mower and storing it for the winter. He laughed at me and said "Why bother? When the thing breaks down in a few years, just buy another. They don't cost that much." And he had a point. It took me a few hours to change the oil and air filter and clean out the build up of grass. Would my time be better spent with my family each fall and just buying another mower in five years? My dad's lawn mower lasted for what seemed forever. He did the annual maintenance on it and when it finally broke down he was disappointed. He expected to give it to me one day (probably to cut his grass though). At one time, things were made to last. Now, things are made to sell.

Is this why we are running out of land fill? We keep throwing out the crap we buy. Squawkfox had a great post about crap a year ago. One part I would like to highlight:



> Something weird happened to the value of stuff from my grandparents era to today. Back then, stuff was honored, maintained, shared, and passed down from generation to generation. My grandparent’s stuff lasted and was expected to be useful year after year. Today, stuff doesn’t endure the test of time. It becomes obsolete, discontinued, deprecated, and abandoned. We garbage and consume crap quickly and fiercely. Crap is a disposable and insatiable addiction.


I look at some of the items in my parent's household, and I remember them from childhood. It's not that they are too cheap to replace them, but they still function to this day. Can we expect the things we buy today to work for our children?

My parents' television set broke down after 20 years and the salesman told them not to expect their new one to last even 10 years. "They don't make them like that anymore."

It's easy to buy crap. And sometimes we have no choice. What are you doing to buy less crap?


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

lb71 said:


> I was up north on the weekend, and stopped into the local Wal Mart to pick up some items. I have not been to a Wal Mart in a number of years, but was shocked at the price tag on a lot of items. T-shirts or shorts for $6 (not the latest trends). A two pack of my contract solution for $13 ($15 at Costco, and I thought that was cheap). Two glass baby bottles for $4 (My wife said she paid $10 each). Everytime I checked out the price of something I was floored.
> 
> This place was built to sell us stuff we don't need. It's like a drug. It was hard to control myself. You don't need the actual item, but cannot resist because it's so cheap. I saw a portable bbq for $30. The propane tank was $10. I had no need for it, but thought to myself, "If I had to go on a picnic, I would buy this and trash it afterwards." Like Costco, if you don't stick to your list, you could end up buying twice what you came for.
> 
> ...


Great topic. It's true, most things are made today so that they can be replaced in a short period of time to make the companies more money. For us though, we "try" to buy higher quality items (after comparison shopping feverishly) and maintain them. We usually hold onto "crap" for years.


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## Jon Chevreau (Apr 4, 2009)

I believe the phrase "planned obsolescence" was originally used to describe how the auto makers got people to replace their cars every few years, sometimes with exotic new "features" like fins that had no function. 

These days, computer makers and consumer electronics firms do the same thing simply by adding real technological improvements. Everything from HDTV to Blu-ray DVDs means junking the earlier generation of gadget even if it still works. And yes, I do remember a great little Hitachi 14-inch color TV I bought in 1981 that finally gave up the ghost (picture tube) just last year. No extended warranty, no repair ever. 

www.wealthyboomer.ca


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## Alexandra (Apr 3, 2009)

lb71 said:


> It's easy to buy crap. And sometimes we have no choice. What are you doing to buy less crap?


I have moved four times in the last seven years. That fact alone has helped to to think very carefully about buying "things" to have in the house. I often ask myself the question "Do I really want to have to move that?" before I buy something.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

It's amazing what some of my neighbours leave on the side of the road. Its like they just feel they have to replace things every couple of years regardless if its worn out or not.

Although frugal people are not immune. Our problem is that we hold onto things in case it may one day have a use. The trouble is, the extra storage, stress from clutter, etc. outweighs the potential cost of rebuying an item (which will probably never happen). Its something I'm still learning.


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

How do we define 'crap'?

Isn't one man's crap another man's treasure?


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## Retired at 31 (Apr 20, 2009)

What would the economy look like if the majority of people didn't consume the crap?

It's a double edged sword... we need those consumers to continue buying crap to keep the machine rolling. If everyone suddenly went frugal, imagine the impact on the economy.


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## ethos1 (Apr 4, 2009)

Rickson9 said:


> How do we define 'crap'?
> 
> Isn't one man's crap another man's treasure?


especially those that leverage, day traders, trade only options and/or short stocks

Could it be the 'buy & hold' folks are the ones who are unable to define or differentiate between crap & treasure


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## lb71 (Apr 3, 2009)

Retired at 31 said:


> What would the economy look like if the majority of people didn't consume the crap?
> 
> It's a double edged sword... we need those consumers to continue buying crap to keep the machine rolling. If everyone suddenly went frugal, imagine the impact on the economy.


Interesting question. However, most of the crap we are buying is being manufacturered in China. If instead of purchasing crap, we bought things we needed and made well and made to last, that manufacturing base could shift back to domestic production. China is competing on low quality, low cost. Their advantage could disappear if consumers became more finicky.


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## lb71 (Apr 3, 2009)

Spidey said:


> Although frugal people are not immune. Our problem is that we hold onto things in case it may one day have a use. The trouble is, the extra storage, stress from clutter, etc. outweighs the potential cost of rebuying an item (which will probably never happen). Its something I'm still learning.


That reminds me of a recent Toronto Life article on the growth of storage facilities. Ever notice that these places are popping up all over the place? Well, apparently, we just aren't buying more crap, but we can't part with it either, so we are paying to have it stored too.


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## stephenheath (Apr 3, 2009)

> It's a double edged sword... we need those consumers to continue buying crap to keep the machine rolling. If everyone suddenly went frugal, imagine the impact on the economy.


Hmmm, let's ignore national differences and think about that. Let's say the crap is 30% of overall economic spending, with the rest either frequent purchases (groceries, fuel, etc) or big items bought infrequently (houses, cars, furniture). So we cut out that 30%... the companies that made the crap stop buying supplies, so commodity prices go down, which might lower some other prices (ie, if less crap is made with metal steel might be cheaper which means cars might be cheaper). Then 30% of the workforce loses their job, which slows down the purchases of infrequent big items, and causes a small reduction in the small items (less gas used for commuting to work) and a bigger reduction in the buying frequency of big items.

This reduction takes a while to work through it's systems, but companies retool and resize their production lines to be efficient with the new volumes, and the new increase in available labor means that salaries can decrease, lowering the costs of the finished goods.

Ultimately, a new equilibrium is found and things stabilize. If we could somehow arrange it that each two income couple would only lose 60% of the second income's hours (for a total reduction of 30%), we as a society would probably be better off. We now have a couple who collectively works less hours, can still afford to live since prices have gone down, and people aren't buying crap (which by definition is no good stuff, useful needed items are still being bought).

The biggest problem, and the biggest scare, is that our society has moved away from the close community bonds we had, and of course, it doesn't work out that one worker loses 60% of their hours... what winds up happening is that some couples are fine, and other unlucky ones lose both their jobs, and so does their brother, father, and uncle. Unfortunately, only a planned economy could help spread the pain of a downsizing of that magnitude, and they have their own problems.


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## canabiz (Apr 4, 2009)

lb71 said:


> Interesting question. However, most of the crap we are buying is being manufacturered in China. If instead of purchasing crap, we bought things we needed and made well and made to last, that manufacturing base could shift back to domestic production. China is competing on low quality, low cost. Their advantage could disappear if consumers became more finicky.


I am not so sure if people are prepared to pay a markup just because certain items are *made in Canada* or *made in North America*.

I asked that very same question in another thread and the general consensus among posters indicate prices are the primary concern, the rest is just details.


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

canabiz said:


> I asked that very same question in another thread and the general consensus among posters indicate prices are the primary concern, the rest is just details.


This is true for us.


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## The_Number (Apr 3, 2009)

I'm afraid I won't be adding much substance to the thread, but I just wanted to say "Yes, (we buy too much crap.") I try to be moderate.


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## drh (May 20, 2009)

> I asked that very same question in another thread and the general consensus among posters indicate prices are the primary concern, the rest is just details.


This is a conversation I was having with my wife the other day (while shopping for a new BBQ to replace our aging clunker). We've become such a disposable society where price seems to be trump quality so much so that environmental impact takes a back seat.

Case in point, deciding which BBQ to buy - with so many "Made in China" options available at such ridiculously low prices, how does one justify paying double or triple for a brand with known sustainability (ie: Weber, Napoleon etc.) We've come to expect most consumer goods to only last a handful of years before we have to throw out and buy new - a friend even made the argument that maybe he doesn't want to have a BBQ last more than 5 years, hey, I get a fresh shiny new one that much faster.

Counter this with the European mentality - they seem to consume higher end, or have an expectation of higher end material goods. They spend more to acquire their merchandise, buy less of it, but expect them to last that much longer.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

drh said:


> Counter this with the European mentality - they seem to consume higher end, or have an expectation of higher end material goods. They spend more to acquire their merchandise, buy less of it, but expect them to last that much longer.


I'm not sure that this is necessarily true about Europeans anymore, but I think you've hit the nail on the head as to one of the main causes of the problem.

In the long run it usually pays to spend more and buy a quality product that will last (perhaps even for several generations), than to buy junk that will have to be replaced over and over again.


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## The Happy Wanderer (May 7, 2009)

I would tend to agree that the majority of us especially in North America, consume way more than we need to. The quality just isn't there any more. It is unfortunate, but it is what our society has transformed into. Having a high quality product beats out cheaply produced products most of the time. You will pay a premium for that product, but at least you will get what you pay for. 

What I find ironic is this. My parents generation; baby boomers etc...say back in the 1940s-1980s. The average family had how many kids? At least 3 or 4 no? So you have a household of 5 or 6 people. Typically living in a 800-1000 square foot home. The family usually had ONE automobile. The dad was typically the bread winner, while the wife could work part time or full time if she had to or wanted to. And, amazingly enough...those families turned out just fine. Now today we have an average family size of what is it 1.6 children per family? So 3-4 people in a family. Both parents work, not because they want to, but because they have to! Out of necessity to pay for the new car(s), DREAM HOMES, that are easily double and sometimes triple the size of post World War II homes. 

This is the part I love though. You would think most people would have more than enough room for storage in their 1500 or 2500 square foot home. With only 2 children...sometimes three. Is it just me, or does everyone seem to use their garage as a storage locker? Most people can't even fit their damn cars inside the garage. I don't get it. Half the family size, double the living space, but way less room. HMMMM


Yes I think we consume way too much crap!


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

We have a rule in our house that for every item we buy, we have to get rid of something of equivalent size or value. That rule doesn't work for everything, but for most purchases we are able to stick to it. The problem is that it is far, far easier to buy something than to get rid of it responsibly. Selling things, taking them to the recycling center, or giving them away to someone who can use them takes more time and effort than purchasing them. 

Knowing that I have to deal with the hassle of getting rid of something tends to act as a pretty effective brake on my desire to acquire. As I've grown older, I've also come to value experiences more than possessions, so while I'm considering a purchase I often do a mental comparison of the alternative things I could do with that money.


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## Jon_Snow (May 20, 2009)

drh said:


> This is a conversation I was having with my wife the other day (while shopping for a new BBQ to replace our aging clunker). We've become such a disposable society where price seems to be trump quality so much so that environmental impact takes a back seat.
> 
> Case in point, deciding which BBQ to buy - with so many "Made in China" options available at such ridiculously low prices, how does one justify paying double or triple for a brand with known sustainability (ie: Weber, Napoleon etc.) We've come to expect most consumer goods to only last a handful of years before we have to throw out and buy new - a friend even made the argument that maybe he doesn't want to have a BBQ last more than 5 years, hey, I get a fresh shiny new one that much faster.
> 
> Counter this with the European mentality - they seem to consume higher end, or have an expectation of higher end material goods. They spend more to acquire their merchandise, buy less of it, but expect them to last that much longer.


Very interesting. My fiance and I are heading out today in search of new BBQ. She is greatly bothered by the fact that for a BBQ of quality we probably will spend $1000+. I not a fan of spending money frivolously, but our old BBQ bit the dust, I enjoy outdoor cooking, and I generally believe that you get what you pay for if you do careful research on a subject. My research suggest that I will push hard to buy a Napoleon or Weber grill today. Oh boy, this will be a hard sell.

She is all in favour of buying the Walmart or Canadian Tire generic brand. Found some horror stories online about those - definitely get what you pay for with those it seems.


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## canabiz (Apr 4, 2009)

Jon_Snow said:


> Very interesting. My fiance and I are heading out today in search of new BBQ. She is greatly bothered by the fact that for a BBQ of quality we probably will spend $1000+. I not a fan of spending money frivolously, but our old BBQ bit the dust, I enjoy outdoor cooking, and I generally believe that you get what you pay for if you do careful research on a subject. My research suggest that I will push hard to buy a Napoleon or Weber grill today. Oh boy, this will be a hard sell.
> 
> She is all in favour of buying the Walmart or Canadian Tire generic brand. Found some horror stories online about those - definitely get what you pay for with those it seems.


Jon, just as an FYI, Broil King and/or Broil Mate BBQ is made in Canada and also have very favorable reputation. They are a notch below Weber/Napoleon but they will last you a while and they are much less expensive. I believe there are deals to be had at Rona/Home Depot, especially with Father's Day just around the corner.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

If charcoal or hardwood is an option, you might want to look into that; you can get an excellent Weber charcoal grill big enough to cook meals for 8-10 people for less than $200. The Webers feature a variable-height grill, allowing you to fine-tune the distance from the coals to get the right temperature. I switched from propane to charcoal two years ago and doubt I'll ever go back to gas -- I use chunk hardwood charcoal, which is much more widely available than it used to be, and I use a charcoal starter chimney to get it started: you put newpaper in the bottom, charcoal in the top, and light it, no lighter fluid necessary. I compost the ashes (I wouldn't do that with charcoal briquets as they have lots of chemical additives, but it's safe to compost hardwood ashes). The only drawbacks to charcoal grilling are that you have to wait a little longer (for the coals to whiten) before you can start grilling, and there's some smoke when the coals are first starting to burn.

This past winter I celebrated my birthday by grilling outdoors at night when it was about 18 below zero Celsius; one of my neighbours smelled the smoke and called the fire department. I guess it never occurred to him that someone would be running a charcoal grill in the middle of winter ;-)


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## Jon_Snow (May 20, 2009)

All BBQ advice is appreciated, but yesterday I took the plunge and bought a Weber gas grill. Basically cost us the equivalent of a mortgage payment, which is tough to swallow, but after using it last night it my fiance and I feel better about the purchase. If the grill lasts 5+ years then its probably well worth the price... and it should - while assembling the components I was pretty shocked regarding the high quality of the materials. This grill could come from NASA. 

Anyway, its a little bit of overkill for a condo patio, but hopefully we can take it to our island cottage when we finally get that built - and the money we need to spend for THAT will make this look like chump change.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

One surprise I find every year is how much stuff I bring to the dump besides what we would donate or recycle.


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## Arcaneind (Apr 3, 2009)

*Designed or Planned Obsolescence*



Jon Chevreau said:


> I believe the phrase "planned obsolescence" was originally used to describe how the auto makers got people to replace their cars every few years, sometimes with exotic new "features" like fins that had no function.
> 
> These days, computer makers and consumer electronics firms do the same thing simply by adding real technological improvements. Everything from HDTV to Blu-ray DVDs means junking the earlier generation of gadget even if it still works. And yes, I do remember a great little Hitachi 14-inch color TV I bought in 1981 that finally gave up the ghost (picture tube) just last year. No extended warranty, no repair ever.


I listen to Ontario Today on CBC radio and every month they have on a large appliance repairman, Steve Brannan. I've heard him talk about designed obsolescence twice (simply because they make better parts because they will have to replace them for free).

The first time somebody asked him what the best fridge was. His response was something like "a twenty-five year old Frigidaire". After that any appliance that offers the longest or a life-time parts warranty.

The second time was more interesting. He said to ask several people "how old is an old appliance?".

Latest Generation of Buyers = 5+ years
Their Parent's Generation = 20+ years
Their Grandparent's Generation = 40+ years

That old beer fridge might not be as efficient, but it sure does last!


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

While it's true that old appliances were made better, the efficiency factor makes them a LOT more expensive to keep than to replace them with newer models. If you replace a pre-1980 standard fridge with an Energy Star model, you'll save nearly $1,000 CAD in energy costs over five years. That pretty much pays for the fridge. I've had my Energy Star fridge and my Energy Star washer for nine years and they have been totally reliable so far.


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## Arcaneind (Apr 3, 2009)

brad said:


> While it's true that old appliances were made better, the efficiency factor makes them a LOT more expensive to keep than to replace them with newer models. If you replace a pre-1980 standard fridge with an Energy Star model, you'll save nearly $1,000 CAD in energy costs over five years. That pretty much pays for the fridge. I've had my Energy Star fridge and my Energy Star washer for nine years and they have been totally reliable so far.


I agree with you. I guess my dream would be for a domestic manufacturer to make something that is efficient *and* you can count on to last 10+ years!


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## JayRoc (Apr 4, 2009)

Ib71, this is a fantastic post! I feel the same way you do....has anyone ever seen this video on our consumer society: www.storyofstuff.com - it's a GREAT video that discusses similar ideas to what's posted here.

Cheers.


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## Patricia (Apr 3, 2009)

Knowing that I have to deal with the hassle of getting rid of something tends to act as a pretty effective brake on my desire to acquire. As I've grown older, I've also come to value experiences more than possessions, so while I'm considering a purchase I often do a mental comparison of the alternative things I could do with that money.[/QUOTE]


That is exactly how I feel. Nicely summed up!


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## CharlieD (Apr 4, 2009)

*Downsizing BBQs*

One frugal solution to the bbq question is to go smaller. Over the years, I have had a number of cheap bbqs which were a big pain to set up and never seemed to last more than a season or two. Fed up, about 3 years ago I bought a Weber and I have never looked back. BUT, I bought the smallest one I could find and I bought it on sale (it's miniature, but you could do about 10-12 small burgers on it--who needs more? I never have.) It was $100, required no assembly!, and is built like a jeep. It has a small propane "tank" (I am currently in the process of finding out whether I can fill these at my local propane distributor, but usually I pick up three at Canadian Tire for $12), and I expect it to last forever at this rate.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

If you are buying those propane cylinders filled, inside the store, I'm pretty sure they are what are called "single-trip" cylinders that cannot be legally refilled. You can look into finding an adaptor and hose for a larger refillable cylinder to save waste. 

On a general note, an average-priced cast aluminum barbecue should last 10-20 years, but you will have to replace the burners about every 3 years.


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## PMREdmonton (Apr 6, 2009)

I've had a Weber gas BBQ for 6 years now - the amount of times it didn't ignite on the first try I can count on one hand. The temperature control and evenness of heat is first rate. I really don't think you can go wrong with one of these things - I think they last close to 20 years.


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## Jon_Snow (May 20, 2009)

Excellent. I feel better about parting with some crazy money for a BBQ.


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