# Electricity phamplet in the mail (ON) and phantom power



## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

For everyone in Ontario that got this brochure in the mail explaining why electricity rates going up, that cost of that was $1 Million 

So I was alarmed at the cost of sending out this phamplet. The government is trying to explain why electricity rates are going up, which costs $1M? Then, for what ever reason, they are reducing bills by 10% (or subsidizing, if you will.)

On topic of electricity and money, I also caught an interesting article in the Globe and Mail last week, basically outlining that phantom power is costing like $120 per year. If rates are going up 46% like the phamplet suggests, phantom power will cost even more. In the article here, the $120 break down comes from:

Receiver 129kwh $ 9.06
Game console in ready state 419KWH $29.31
Desktop computer in sleep mode $41.90 ( I know people that leave on 24Hr/day.... )
TV 68 KWH $4.74
DVR 286KWH $20.05
DVD or VCR 83.4 $5.84 
Subwoofer 135 KWH $9.47
_______________________________________
$120/year

I know some posters on here are sensitive with the topic of electricity prices and government policies. Heck, I am too. That's why I unplug stuff to save money. It may seem like a small amount, but I'd rather not pay money for something that's completely wasted. 

What do you think of this phantom power savings and the $1M cost to distribute the phamplet??


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The solution is to refuse to buy products that waste electricity in this way.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

I know but we've grown to love our electronics now a days but I gather people have no clue as to how much that red light is costing them. Wait until rates go up. Inflation is looking very unfriendly.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I don't see why electronics can't be designed to not draw power when they're off

You can wire up a simple light switch to these devices


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Jungle said:


> Desktop computer in sleep mode $41.90 ( I know people that leave on 24Hr/day.... )


It depends on your desktop computer: today there are many energy-efficient models available. I have a (by now pretty old) Lenovo A61e that uses $20/year in electricity if left on 24/7, and the Mac Mini uses even less thanks to its efficient power supply, low-power components, and power management software.

Laptops are the most efficient, since they're designed to be energy-efficient to conserve battery life. You can save energy by keeping your laptop's profile in "battery" mode even when it's plugged in.

While I agree that these "phantom" or "vampire" draws are wasteful, they're something to focus on after you've already identified and addressed your larger opportunities for savings. For example, if you unplugged your computer at night but you still kept an old 1980s-era fridge in the basement for beer, you'd be saving pennies while wasting dollars.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I was disgusted by that shameless pamphlet in the mail.
After ripping us off, they have the cheek to send a fancy pamphlet, printed on nice paper, with colored graphs and charts to try and explain their incompetency and wasteful policies!

The pamphlet says, without an iota of shame or apology, that electricity rates in Ontario are expected to rise @ 7.9% every year for next several years.
That is way higher than inflation, higher than wages growth, and higher than what most people earn on their investments.
Geez, I wish the Ontario govt. had done an IPO for this scheme - I'd have love to invest and earn 7.9% guaranteed on my investment!

Here are some of the lies, deceit and contradictions in this scheme:
- Why give us 10% off for a year?
It is like that HST "refund" - take more money from us, then give a small fraction of it back, and call it a discount.

- Why change off-peak time slot from 9:00 pm to 6:00 pm?
6:00 pm is NOT off-peak!
This is just throwing another conciliatory bone during an election year.
Why not reduce rates to reasonable levels and keep reasonable time slots for peak and off peak usage?

- Why give electricity tax credits to seniors only?
Are the rest of the voting population the ugly sisters?
Why don't we deserve a tax credit?
Oh wait...maybe it's because most younger folks don't vote anyway.

- The increased bills progressively increase the amount of debt retirement charges and HST that we have to pay (because they are a % of the total bill).
Thus there is a tax on top of a tax on top of a tax.

The phantom power thing is mostly a smoke screen BS.
It's an attempt to transfer the accountability for your bill away from them and onto you.
They are essentially saying : "if you are paying 3 times more for your bill, it's your fault."
"what? you need air conditioning during summer afternoons? what's wrong with you? turn off that damn thing and get a energy star rated desk fan".
"what? you are cooking dinner at 6? eating at 7? what's wrong with you? eat after 10:00"

I personally have been using power bars for _years_.
I don't have, and never had, phantom power.
Yet the bills are 30% higher than what they were 6 months ago.

I rank this hydro rates scam higher than the eHealth, the HST, the Health Tax and the numerous other scams this govt. has perpetuated in the last 8 years.
And for that reason, they will not get my vote in October 2011.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> I was disgusted by that shameless pamphlet in the mail.


I understand your pain, but but to be fair the pamphlet wasn't intended for people like you. You have the misfortune of having been frugal with electricity all along, which means that the marginal cost to you to reduce one kilowatt-hour of consumption is many times higher than the marginal cost for the average resident of Ontario, who wastes a lot of electricity and has yet to capture the low-hanging fruit. The pamphlet was intended for them.

Most people are wasteful enough that they could take a few measures to improve their energy efficiency and enjoy the same level of comfort while paying only slightly more in electricity each month than they've been paying all along. You're being penalized by your previous frugality, but you're the exception to the rule. The vast majority of Ontario residents probably haven't paid much thought to being energy efficient, so they have many low-cost options available to reduce their electric bills. The pamphlet is aimed at communicating some of these possibilities to them.

Regarding colour printing, it's worth noting that with digital printing it's actually no more expensive to print in four-colour than two-colour, or even some cases (depending on the equipment) black and white.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

We've been over this before, but I think the real scandal is the feed-in tariff program, where we're lavishing astronomical rates on alternative energy, regardless of what those projects need to become economical. They should have been doing a reverse auction instead, in my opinion. If rooftop solar costs 90 cents/kWh, then it clearly isn't ready for widespread adoption. Wind, on the other hand, is pretty much on the cusp of being economical, so some support there is not entirely unjustified.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

andrewf said:


> but I think the real scandal is the feed-in tariff program, where we're lavishing astronomical rates on alternative energy, regardless of what those projects need to become economical.


Exactly....and that is the root of the problem, or at least, the biggest factor in the rate increases.
Whether we call it incompetency, misguided "do-gooding", or outright corruption and being "in bed" with the companies providing "green" energy is another matter.
Fact is, the current working generation of Ontario residents are left to foot the bill for the follies of the past, and the (expected) luxuries of the future.

An apt vindication of the whole situation may be in the future when businesses (both small and large) abandon Toronto and possibly the province of Ontario and take their residence elsewhere.
Kind of how the separatists in Quebec drove away the businesses to Toronto all those years ago.
The rip off policies of the Ontario govt. may end up driving away the businesses (and hence taxpaying populations) further west.


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## Rico (Jan 27, 2011)

mode3sour said:


> I don't see why electronics can't be designed to not draw power when they're off
> 
> You can wire up a simple light switch to these devices


At our house, we put a power bar behind the TV/entertainment centre to make it easier to cut the phantom power use off all at once (no need to unplug that way). It's a mere extra moment at bed time but now we're in the routine. Handily, it's next to the thermostat which gets knocked down a few degree at night too.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

It's good to know that some people on here are already saving by using power bars and thinking economical with their usage.

I agree that the time of use thing makes it difficult, if you are a family with a typical schedule. 

When I go into some family member's homes, I do see a lot of stuff being left on and electricity being wasted. For example, one freezer and one fridge in the basement running 24/day. Overkill for 3 people living in the house.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

However, as your usage falls, your bill doesn't fall by the same rate. My family is very (by our opinion) very frugal when it comes to power. Our average useage year round is 10kwh a day. (more in the winter) you end up getting hammered by "Delivery", debt retirement and regulatory charges. 

Even with my $104 bill last month, Electricity was only $39 and my 10% subsidy was a paltry $2.90.

A few years ago my (in the age of "estimating" one bill had ZERO usage on it. My cost was still $36 
The more you save power, the higher (as a percentage) the other costs become.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I guess some people won't be satisfied unless the government gives you everything for 'free'. But I suppose you'll have astronomical taxes to complain about instead.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Does nobody in Ontario notice that Quebec has oddles of renewable energy (hydro) that is readily available during Ontario's peak summer season? (Quebec's usage peaks during the winter as everyone uses the cheap electric heaters) They are building more damns as we speak, and hydro is not subject to fluctuating fuel prices (water is free)

So why does Quebec sell more electricity to New England if Ont is hurting so bad? Considering Ont peaks in the summer and Quebec peaks in the winter..

My electric bill is peanuts


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> I was disgusted by that shameless pamphlet in the mail.
> After ripping us off, they have the cheek to send a fancy pamphlet, printed on nice paper, with colored graphs and charts to try and explain their incompetency and wasteful policies!


The pamphlet was necessary to warn people that most localaties are going
to TOD use around May, ..and not to get a "shock" when you receive
your hydro bill after that. As far as the $1million price tag..well let's
not forget how many million it cost to convert the OLD Ontario trillium
logo to the NEW Ontario trillium logo..you want to talk about needless
taxpayer money waste...let's talk about that!



> The pamphlet says, without an iota of shame or apology, that electricity rates in Ontario are expected to rise @ 7.9% every year for next several years.
> That is way higher than inflation, higher than wages growth, and higher than what most people earn on their investments.


There are several reasons for this..the high cost of Green Power and these
windfarms..the phasing out of the old coal fired generating stations and
converting them to natural gas. Paying Bruce Nuclear NOT to start up
one of their reactors to eliminate a surplus of electricity,,and justifying
the increased rate..profits for the electricity marketers and so on..

So it can be summarized..former Ontario Hydro mismanagement, old debts,
lack of planning for future electricity requirements..the jump onto "green
power" bandwagon..politicians sitting in Ont legislature with their fingers
up their..a__ses for many years...now we have to pay through the nose
for all that!



> Geez, I wish the Ontario govt. had done an IPO for this scheme - I'd have love to invest and earn 7.9% guaranteed on my investment!


Why not suggest it to the McGinty government...it just might stimulate
private investment and "perhaps" more generation capacity?



> Here are some of the lies, deceit and contradictions in this scheme:
> - Why give us 10% off for a year?
> It is like that HST "refund" - take more money from us, then give a small fraction of it back, and call it a discount.


I see it as a political ploy from the "FIBERALS" as this is an provincial election year and
the McGinty Gov't wants to get back in..same with the last HST rebate in June..after that..
If McGinty Gov't gets back in..no more " Mr Nice Guy" you will PAY..and PAY through the nose for everything.

But what choice do we have?..I don't see the provincial Conservatives or NDP offering any viable solutions..
critisizing is one thing..implementing a good policies or action plans is another. 



> - Why change off-peak time slot from 9:00 pm to 6:00 pm?
> 6:00 pm is NOT off-peak!
> This is just throwing another conciliatory bone during an election year.
> Why not reduce rates to reasonable levels and keep reasonable time slots for peak and off peak usage?


That is a good point. Let's wait and see what happens in the spring when
consumers receive their first hiked electricity bill...there may be more
tinkering with the time slots after more protests. 



> - Why give electricity tax credits to seniors only?
> Are the rest of the voting population the ugly sisters?
> Why don't we deserve a tax credit?
> Oh wait...maybe it's because most younger folks don't vote anyway.


Most seniors are on small gov't pensions and in my case a reduced
pension due to a collapsing private pension plan..so I can use all the
help that I can get from all levels of gov't these days.



> - The increased bills progressively increase the amount of debt retirement charges and HST that we have to pay (because they are a % of the total bill).
> Thus there is a tax on top of a tax on top of a tax.


Taxation is the way most gov'ts get revenue, so it shouldn't be a surprise.
The old Ontario Hydro wasted a lot of money and didn't worry about it
because it was a crown corporation and the ones in charge didn't have
to be accountable to the public for anything. The politicians let them
get away with it for years until the debt got too large..basically it's like
closing the barn door after all the horses have bolted.

Besides, according to some reports, the Old Ontario Hydro debt was
"supposed" to have been paid off a couple of years ago..now it's being
projected into future years...another money making scheme for the
new scheme..see the excerpt from Wiki...

From wikipedia..
In 1998, the Progressive Conservative government of Mike Harris passed the Energy Competition Act which authorized the establishment of a market in electricity. In April 1999, Ontario Hydro was re-organized into five companies: Ontario Power Generation (OPG), the Ontario Hydro Services Company (later renamed Hydro One), the Independent Electricity Market Operator (later renamed the Independent Electricity System Operator), the Electrical Safety Authority, and Ontario Electricity Financial Corporation. The two commercial companies, Ontario Power Generation and Hydro One, were intended to eventually operate as private businesses rather than as crown corporations. OPG was incorporated on April 1, 1999 [endquote from Wiki)



> The phantom power thing is mostly a smoke screen BS.
> It's an attempt to transfer the accountability for your bill away from them and onto you.
> They are essentially saying : "if you are paying 3 times more for your bill, it's your fault."
> "what? you need air conditioning during summer afternoons? what's wrong with you? turn off that damn thing and get a energy star rated desk fan".
> "what? you are cooking dinner at 6? eating at 7? what's wrong with you? eat after 10:00"


Better still..use NO Electricity at all..unplug your fridge and all appliances,
don't use your furnace and save us that power that we can sell to others
at a profit...but please accept the "minimum monthly bill" you will STILL
receive for using no power at all.



> I rank this hydro rates scam higher than the eHealth, the HST, the Health Tax and the numerous other scams this govt. has perpetuated in the last 8 years.
> And for that reason, they will not get my vote in October 2011.


Gov'ts are there to "serve the people"..wasting the taxpayers money is
one thing that they are best at. A private corporation that wastes money
and rings up a huge deficit is forced into bankruptcy..a inefficient gov't
justs racks up a huge deficit and the taxpayers will have to pay more
for their screwups!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Jungle said:


> For everyone in Ontario that got this brochure in the mail explaining why electricity rates going up, that cost of that was $1 Million


I guess their new motto will be "Use Less and Pay More" ?

[QUOTE from the Star]
We’re now in a position where we’ve got a reliable supply and we’re doing it in a really smart way. We’re doing it in a way that creates thousands of new jobs,” said McGuinty, referring to the Green Energy Act that subsidizes clean wind and solar generators *with hopes of creating 50,000 new jobs over three years.* [/QUOTE]

Hmmm..50k NEW Jobs due to Green Power?... combine that with the "thousands" of expected jobs that new HST is supposed to
create..we will be in fine form here in Ontario...that is if you believe all
the propaganda the current gov't is giving us! 



> So I was alarmed at the cost of sending out this phamplet. The government is trying to explain why electricity rates are going up, which costs $1M? Then, for what ever reason, they are reducing bills by 10% (or subsidizing, if you will.)


The rates are going up because the power generation is now on a profit 
basis, not just serving the needs of Ontarioans. One million for advertising
is not that much today, if you consider the cost printing pamphlets and 
distributing them..although the distribution could be inside your hydro bill,
so the local utility could absorb that. 



> On topic of electricity and money, I also caught an interesting article in the Globe and Mail last week, basically outlining that phantom power is costing like $120 per year. If rates are going up 46% like the phamplet suggests, phantom power will cost even more. In the article here, the $120 break down comes from:
> 
> Receiver 129kwh $ 9.06
> Game console in ready state 419KWH $29.31
> ...


While that certainly isn't peanuts, it is small potatoes compared to the
energy consumption of a 10 year old fridge that is still working satisfactorily.
Ontario shouldn't be concerned about "standby electronic power consumption"
as the wasteful energy consumed by millions of old fridges
running 24/7 and using more power than they should. 

In the summertime, my hydro bill is mostly due to the 10 year old fridge, as I use A/C very seldom
and all lighting is on CFL. I turn off my computer when it is not in use.

What Ontario needs to do is offer a bigger grant to encourage the tradein and
disposal of old fridges for new more efficient ones..that will save megawatts in the long run and
keep electricity costs down..well maybe. 



> What do you think of this phantom power savings and the $1M cost to distribute the phamplet??


As mentioned, the phantom power saving is small compared to other 
inefficient appliances. Just wait until everyone gets into recharging
electric cars, because the cost of fuel will skyrocket over the next few
years to $1.50 a liter or even more. (Thats about 6 dollars a gallon
with the HST and taxes already heaped on. )
Even with a 220v charging circuit, it will take a "few amps" over night
to recharge those batteries and that is like running a very inefficient
old energy wasting fridge.

Solution? Save whatever power consumption you feel comfortable with.
Remember that if you don't burn it..someone else will and the price
of gas or electricity will still go up inspite of your conservation methods.

Introduction of the CFL was a good thing as the obselete incadescent
bulb is pretty much gone now..same with the old Christmas lights
being replaced by LED lights.

Now we need something like that for replacing the fridges, dryers and
maybe those heavy kilowatt consumption electric ovens and stoves.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

crazyjackcsa said:


> However, as your usage falls, your bill doesn't fall by the same rate. My family is very (by our opinion) very frugal when it comes to power. Our average useage year round is 10kwh a day. (more in the winter) you end up getting hammered by "Delivery", debt retirement and regulatory charges.
> 
> Even with my $104 bill last month, Electricity was only $39 and my 10% subsidy was a paltry $2.90.
> 
> ...


Well at least you got a 10% "rebate" on your electricity consumption.

Consider the poor suckers that signed up with a electricity retailer that
are paying through the nose (an EXTRA 3 to 5 cents per kilowatt hour +
HST on top of the contracted price per kwh..for the privilege of signing up with an independent retailer.

That is what is termed "Provincial Benefit" and how they explain it is that it is the difference between
the market price and the contracted price..now called a "Gobal adjustment".

[QUOTE ]FROM IESO
The rate is set to reflect the difference between the market price and:
The regulated rates paid to Ontario Power Generation’s nuclear and hydroelectric baseload generating stations; 
Payments made to suppliers that have been awarded contracts through the Ontario Power Authority such as new gas-fired facilities, renewable facilities (like wind farms) and demand response programs; and 
Contracted rates administered by the Ontario Electricity Financial Corporation paid to existing generators. [/QUOTE]


The OEB claims that that increase is factored into the RPP (regulated price
plan) of those that are NOT signed up with an independent electricity marketer.

Electricity rates are on the rise because of "Green Power" (where the
hydro authority pays the "farm operator" a substantial premium on
wind farm generated electricity. On solar, it's up to 80c per kwh.

Now folks..where do you think that the power authority and "for profit"
entities tied into OPG will get their subsidies? From the gov't...
not likely..but from the consumers and the provincial gov't will benefit
from the HST on the entire hydro bill...yes..you are paying HST on
the old Ontario Hydro debt retirement charge...in essenced a tax upon
a tax.

Like Ross Perot (US unsuccessful presidential candidate a few years back) once said.."can you hear that giant sucking sound?"


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I can imagine carverman in a padded cell with scribbled writing all over the walls. Not to say anything about the salience of his points, just their presentation.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

There's one thing that puzzles me - about kitchen stoves and heating systems/water boilers here in Canada. Why are most of them electrical? We learned from our Physics classes that the thermal effect of electric current is a side effect, its efficiency for generating thermal energy being very low. So, why isn't natural gas used, like almost anywhere in Europe?

Is the electricity cheaper to produce in Canada and gas is scarce? In that case, why increased hydro bills?

Tell about electrical heaters/hot water preparation systems to someone from Europe, and he will have a hard laugh at you


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Gas appliances tend to more expensive, up-front.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Gas appliances tend to more expensive, up-front.


I also think some people worry about the safety of gas, plus you really need to use a hood (vent) when you're cooking with gas, otherwise your lungs are exposed to all those particulates and other nasty things that get in the air when gas is burned. I read somewhere that daily cooking with gas without a hood carries similar health risks to those from smoking a pack of cigarettes every day. And not everyone wants to run a fan while cooking, even though we should even with electric stoves.

I would love to cook with gas, it's a much better experience, but my girlfriend doesn't want a gas line in the house, she's worried about explosions.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

I can't believe that those are the real reasons 
C'mon, I guess it's more like Canadian builders/and installers being lazy /cheap for a quick buck about installing gas pipes and water pipes (for the heating exchangers).

For heating, the micro-preparation station uses a forced air system and as per regulation it must have 2 external vents - one for pulling fresh air and the other for the exhaust.

It's more like propaganda imprinted into people's thoughts 

The natgas prices perhaps grow faster than electricity, but in Europe and Russia the former is still cheaper. Not to mention also that for cooking, the metal cookware gets damaged faster with electric heating.

[The other thing that I don't get it, but that's off-topic, is why the windows in the houses are opening towards outside !! You save space inside (for curtains etc) BUT what happens when a strong wind/storm comes!!???]


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Gas appliances tend to more expensive, up-front.


I wouldn't mind that. But again, that happens due to artificially making this kind of system not mainstream, and thus considered an "alternate, luxury".


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

brad said:


> I also think some people worry about the safety of gas, plus you really need to use a hood (vent) when you're cooking with gas, otherwise your lungs are exposed to all those particulates and other nasty things that get in the air when gas is burned. I read somewhere that daily cooking with gas without a hood carries similar health risks to those from smoking a pack of cigarettes every day. And not everyone wants to run a fan while cooking, even though we should even with electric stoves.
> 
> I would love to cook with gas, it's a much better experience, but my girlfriend doesn't want a gas line in the house, she's worried about explosions.


Sounds like you have no experience or knowledge with Natural Gas.

A hood vent is not required for a residential cooktop in Canada. And while there are some emissions, they aren't akin to smoking cigarettes. In fact 80% of the emissions is water vapor. And while there are some issues, one study concluded fumes from the food actually being cooked might cause more problems than the gas being burned. 

Is you're girlfriend worried about electrical shorts? Electrocution? bad wiring? Look at how many homes have Natural gas, now how many explosions do you read about?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think it's actually that the equipment for gas appliances is more expensive. It's really inexpensive to turn electricity into heat--you just need resistance.

All that said, gas is great to cook on. I hear magnetic induction isn't bad. Natural gas fumes being harmful is nonsense. You get complete combustion on ranges, so there's basically no CO concerns. And the vast majority of particulate emissions would come from any food you're cooking. It's smart to use a hood for gas or electric, depending on what you're cooking. The purpose of hoods is to remove smoke from frying and excess water vapour, and doesn't have much of anything to do with the heat source.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

andrewf said:


> I think it's actually that the equipment for gas appliances is more expensive. It's really inexpensive to turn electricity into heat--you just need resistance.


If I knew what's going to happen to hydro rates vs. natural gas rates, I would have bought gas appliances in a heartbeat, including the laundary dryer.
Gas rates have been dropping consistently for many years now.
Hydro rates were stable until our provincial leaders had a brain fart.
Gas appliances would have more than recovered their higher cost.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

crazyjackcsa said:


> Sounds like you have no experience or knowledge with Natural Gas.


I cooked and heated with natural gas or propane for 15 years, I miss it.

Here's one study showing effects of natural gas cookstoves on respiratory health in children:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7794611

Also see this article:

http://esciencenews.com/articles/2009/01/08/particulate.emission.natural.gas.burning.home.appliances

Fine particulates (PM 2.5) are much more dangerous than larger particles (PM10) because they are inhaled more deeply and can lodge inside the lung; there are many studies showing strong associations between fine particulates and cancer, heart disease, etc.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think walking down a busy street is probably going to expose you to more carcinogens .


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

crazyjackcsa said:


> Sounds like you have no experience or knowledge with Natural Gas.
> 
> A hood vent is not required for a residential cooktop in Canada. And while there are some emissions, they aren't akin to smoking cigarettes. In fact 80% of the emissions is water vapor. And while there are some issues, one study concluded fumes from the food actually being cooked might cause more problems than the gas being burned.
> 
> Is you're girlfriend worried about electrical shorts? Electrocution? bad wiring? Look at how many homes have Natural gas, now how many explosions do you read about?


+1
The same things as our ancestors making a fire, for heating the tents, caves or cooking. No toxic issues


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

andrewf said:


> I think it's actually that the equipment for gas appliances is more expensive. It's really *inexpensive* to turn electricity into heat--you just need resistance.


Inexpensive in terms of device needed. But the overall cost is higher with electricity, due to low efficiency of conversion.
Induction cooking might be a better compromise indeed. But it may affect the cookware's durability?


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

smihaila said:


> +1
> The same things as our ancestors making a fire, for heating the tents, caves or cooking. No toxic issues


And why do you think our ancestors' life expectancy was about 45 years?


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

Improper sanitary conditions, too much crowded areas favoring fast spread of diseases etc


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

smihaila said:


> Improper sanitary conditions, too much crowded areas favoring fast spread of diseases etc


Oh, I know, which is why I put the wink at the end. But in fact there's a huge global effort to stop indoor open-fire cooking (not talking about natural gas here, but wood, dung, coal, etc.) because it kills nearly 2 million people each year:

http://www.fic.nih.gov/news/resources/cookstoves.htm

Anyway, I agree that natural gas isn't dangerous for cooking but I would still use a hood (and I use a hood for all indoor cooking anyway). Indoor air quality is a bigger issue than most of us think, especially for kids.


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## warp (Sep 4, 2010)

That phamplet we all got in the mail was just another example of political self-serving...( paid for with OUR money, of course.)

Idiot liberals are afraid their bungling of power in Ontario is going to cost them votes,,( and I sure hope it does).

Its insulting to me.....but as always I can do nothing about it till the next election.

What really p*sses me off, is that I am losing faith that ANY party has ANY idea about how to run the govt.

One thing for sure though.....we absolutelty have to rid ourselves of tax and spend liberals.....( and the NDP are way worse)

Its amazing what goes on in politics....Bob Rae almost singlehandedly destroyed Ontario when he was our NDP Premier....and was roundly voted out of office as soon as possible.
Now he has become a liberal , and ran for the leadership of the Canada Liberal Party...he actually thinks and wants to become the Prime Minister!
( and was voted in as a member of parliament)

WHAT A JOKE!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

*Energy consumption, hydro rebate et al*

Getting back on topic...

1. Got a 10% discount on my last hydro bill from Ottawa Hydro...every little
bit helps, since my area is going TOU this spring.

2. Took advantage of the free programmable.. (by me and Ottawa Hydro )..thermostat deal offered by Hydro Ottawa. 
They can turn off the A/C (if running) on 15 minute cycles by Wi-Fi. Is't technology wonderful? 
I also am supposed to get a rebate check of $25 from them..as I said,
every little bit helps these days!

3. Did some calculation of energy usage by my old 15 year fridge..still
works, but very high energy consumption due to inefficient compressor 
using 6.5 amps..thats about 700watts at 120 ac.

Based on rising electricity rates + HST..it's now time to retire this energy hog dinosaur!

Since the loaded hydro rate (all charges + hst included) is closer to
15c per kwh..I have made a decision now to give it a send off to
the recycler. Based on my hydro bills last summer..(when I was at
the trailer camp May to August), it consumed 6.47kwh per day on average.
All I had was a couple of 13 w CFL for security purposes, and standby
power of a 32 inch flat screen tv. This year, I'm unplugging everything
except the 2 CFL bulbs..but first I need to go fridge hunting for a more
energy efficient Fridge around 18 to 16.6 cu ft.

My current fridge uses about 700watts and runs around 2.2 hours in the
winter months (35c per day) and probably around 3-4 hrs in the summer months ($1.40 per day) 
when the inside temperature climbs to 80 degrees (or even more on the odd scorcher days). 

So since I can't control the outside summer temperature and I DON'T want to
run the expensive A/C when I am away.. I'm looking for an Energy Star
fridge that consumes 400 watts or less.

Anybody have any suggestions on what models I could look at?
Oh yes, it has to be under $700 as I want it to pay for itself over
the next 10 years in energy savings.

*UPDATE: Feb 28/2011*Bought a Energy Star 18cuft fridge from Leons yesterday ($620 including tax)
Compressor only uses 4.5 amps vs 6.5 amps for my 15 year old energy hog fridge.

The old fridge is still working fine, but at 700watts consumption (vs about 500watts on the new one),
it has to be retired due to higher electricity costs over the next few years.

The new one is advertised as using 479kwh PER YEAR. At a loaded electricity cost, thats about $71.85 per year
vs well over $200 for my old one. With the energy savings, the new fridgew should pay for itself well within
a 10 year period..and save me the additional HST on the energy that my old one uses.

So long WHIRLPOOL...hello FRIDIGAIR!


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