# Covid restriction guidelines and laws



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

i Have family members asking to come and visit with us for a few days over New Years. Forget about whether this is smart or not. I want to clarify the law.

we are in the Ontario red zone which limits indoor social gatherings to 5 people.
family members are in the Ontario grey lockdown zone. No social gatherings with people outside your household.

from what I’ve found, these are actual LAWS. Not just medical guidelines. Here are the grey zone details.






Law Document English View


Welcome to the new e-Laws. It’s now easier than ever to find Ontario laws. We welcome your feedback.




www.ontario.ca





here‘s a portion Near the bottom:

*SCHEDULE 4 
ORGANIZED PUBLIC EVENTS, CERTAIN GATHERINGS*
*Gatherings, Stage 1 areas
1. *(1) Subject to sections 2 to 4, no person shall attend,
(a) an organized public event that is held indoors;
(b) a social gathering that is held indoors, including a social gathering associated with a gathering described in clause (d);




there’s no mention of fines at all.

am I correct, that these restricts around mixing households are actual LAWS, and not just guidelines?

my family is arguing that they are technically not “locked down” and are free to travel. That may be legally right, but I want to confirm the legalities of households inter-mingling. 

I’m being made out to be the bad guy.....I don’t doubt my family has been isolating and it’s probably fairly safe.....but isn’t the whole point to listen to the medical experts.........do people not understand asymptomatic carriers? Why does everybody say.....I’ve been careful, I haven’t gone out for 2 weeks...I don’t have symptoms!


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

What _is_ there to understand about asymptomatic carriers? That they hardly exist? Or that it's not possible for the scientists (i.e. contract tracing nursing staff + others phone call makers) to ever figure out what low low percentage of asymptomatic carriers there really are because there are so many symptomatic out there anyways, plus people who lie to the tracers, plus the tracing being inadequate fundamentally?

Do you foresee any fallout with your family for refusing their request?


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

peterk said:


> What _is_ there to understand about asymptomatic carriers? That they hardly exist? Or that it's not possible for the scientists (i.e. contract tracing nursing staff + others phone call makers) to ever figure out what low low percentage of asymptomatic carriers there really are because there are so many symptomatic out there anyways, plus people who lie to the tracers, plus the tracing being inadequate fundamentally?
> 
> Do you foresee any fallout with your family for refusing their request?


I don’t foresee any fallout but I’d really want to know if the social gathering limits are actual laws, not just guidelines.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> I don’t foresee any fallout but I’d really want to know if the social gathering limits are actual laws, not just guidelines.


It depends, but they're "laws".

In this case it's a regulation that you're referencing.
Basically they pass a law that says something and references regulations.
The law is passed in the legislature, and the regulations are the details, which are typically NOT debated in the legislature. They're just the administrative details.

I think most of them are initially were Health orders, which have full force of law.
Basically there are a bunch of laws that allow certain people in certain positions to give orders. 

Guidelines do not have force of law.





Legislation and Guidelines - Canada.ca


Overview of legislation and guidelines for which Health Canada assumes whole or partial responsibility. Links provided to separate sections on Acts, Agreements, Guidelines and Regulations




www.canada.ca





In the cases of the lockdowns, they have all there, but basically they have laws/regulations and orders to make this all mandatory.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We cancelled Christmas Eve dinner and told our son that our grandson can't visit us now. He lives with his mom's family and they don't follow the rules.

We simply can't take the risk because of our own ages and my wife works in a retirement home with older adults, some of whom are not in the best health.

It is difficult when some people just don't care, and yes......we are the "bad guys" in all this, but we gotta do what is necessary. It really sucks though.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Question for the OP:

What is the point of interpreting the law or confirming the "legalities of households inter-mingling" when it isn't enforced? Are the police gonna check into your private 5 people gathering? On the other hand if you do decide to have that gathering and someone does come down with the disease ... well, you just took your chance.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Sorry I don't have the expertise to interpret the law, but I wonder how the family members will feel if their desire to pretend everything is normal results in a family member ending up in hospital.

I have cancelled my Christmas/New Year gathering with my parents. It's just too dangerous to mix the households. And it's really not a big deal to skip this for one year.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

peterk said:


> *What is there to understand about asymptomatic carriers? That they hardly exist*? Or that it's not possible for the scientists (i.e. contract tracing nursing staff + others phone call makers) to ever figure out what low low percentage of asymptomatic carriers there really are because there are so many symptomatic out there anyways, plus people who lie to the tracers, plus the tracing being inadequate fundamentally?
> ...


 ... I guess you haven't been following our (Toronto's) news closely:

At least 57 positive COVID-19 cases found in Ontario schools through asymptomatic testing



> ...
> COVID-19 infections have led to multiple school closures, with at least 12 schools in the Toronto District School Board (TDSB) shuttered as of Dec. 18.


 ... with more schools to be closed in the upcoming days plus the holidays extended for students, if not all moved to online learning. 

Just that ON's Education Minister (who is nowhere to be seen/heard for the past month/weeks) hasn't made up his mind yet on what to do next.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Beaver101 said:


> Question for the OP:
> 
> What is the point of interpreting the law or confirming the "legalities of households inter-mingling" when it isn't enforced? Are the police gonna check into your private 5 people gathering? On the other hand if you do decide to have that gathering and someone does come down with the disease ... well, you just took your chance.


My point to family and friends is that I look to the medical advice and recommendations for my behaviour and behaviour that I will allow in and around my home. It’s an “Easy” out for me. Rather than having to defend my decision and going back and forth about how safe it might be. To me, the advice is simple....limit non essential travel and currently....do not mix with other households from locked down areas at all. What Makes people feel they can invite themselves over for multiple nights is beyond me.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Well, there you go. Common sense and besides, it's your house.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Our leaders aren't leading. 

They don't want to make the tough decisions so they are waffling and telling people what they recommend but let people decide for themselves.

That way they can say we warned you and it was your decision........so don't blame us.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

peterk said:


> What _is_ there to understand about asymptomatic carriers? That they hardly exist? Or that it's not possible for the scientists (i.e. contract tracing nursing staff + others phone call makers) to ever figure out what low low percentage of asymptomatic carriers there really are because there are so many symptomatic out there anyways, plus people who lie to the tracers, plus the tracing being inadequate fundamentally?
> 
> Do you foresee any fallout with your family for refusing their request?


Well, the number doesn’t seem to be low. In our province, they were saying some like 17% of people wjpho tested positive were asymptomatic. There was an out break at my moms care homes, they tested everyone every few days, 6 out of the 23 people who staff and residents had no symptoms. And 4 or them never developed any symptoms the whole time. The staff who brought it in, had no symptoms and was called due to contact tracing due to a close contact in which the person went home immediately to test, and that person had infected two other staff while being asymptomatic. They developed symptoms after they recieved the test results they would have infected more people if it wasn’t for the contact tracing.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> My point to family and friends is that I look to the medical advice and recommendations for my behaviour and behaviour that I will allow in and around my home. It’s an “Easy” out for me. Rather than having to defend my decision and going back and forth about how safe it might be. To me, the advice is simple....limit non essential travel and currently....do not mix with other households from locked down areas at all. What Makes people feel they can invite themselves over for multiple nights is beyond me.


 Agreed. i have taken much higher level of caution to what is allowed. However, it is so difficult to see my kids suffer because they are being left out from all of their illegal friends gatherings. As teen, this is worst than Covid. It is because of the legal lockdown, I have been able to stand strong tell me kids no they still can’t hang out with their friends because it is illegal. We aren’t hanging out with family, because it’s illegal. I am pretty at standing by what is right to do, but when it comes to watching my kids mental health suffer, I am glad that I have the law behind me. i have heard my youngest tell an anti masking family (their kid was her friend) that she cannot hang out with them because that’s what the restrictions say. The kid made fun of her before the ban. she doesn’t want to be friends with someone like this, but said it’s easier to use me and the governement as a reason to avoid them.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Money172375 said:


> ....
> 
> from what I’ve found, these are actual LAWS. Not just medical guidelines. Here are the grey zone details.
> 
> ...


Yes Virginia, these are actual laws. Santa will have to obey them.

The lack of mention of fines does not mean there are none. They are cleverly hidden. They dwell in the Provincial Offences Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. P.33.

*General penalty
61 *Except where otherwise expressly provided by law, every person who is convicted of an offence is liable to a fine of not more than $5,000. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.33, s. 61.

Alas, we have grown soft. If modern social distancing laws incorporated some of these historical provisions, compliance might not be so difficult to achieve:

Some samples from Canada's first Criminal Code:

"Whenever whipping may be awarded for any offence ... the number of strokes shall be specified in the sentence and the instrument to be used for whipping shall be a cat-o'-nine-tails unless some instrument is specified in the sentence. Whipping shall not be inflicted on any female.
"In all cases where an offender is sentenced to death, the sentence shall be that he be hanged by the neck until he is dead."
I fail to see how the prohibition against the whipping of females would withstand scrutiny today. Discrimination on the basis of sex, decidedly frowned upon nowadays.

So, while the regulatory provisions in question might indeed have the force of law, that does not mean they are good law. I would not be surprised by some enterprising type mounting a Charter challenge, relying on the guarantee of "freedom of association" enshrined in s. 2(d) of the Charter. I would expect such a challenge to be fatally wounded by resort to the general saving provision under s. 1 (but ya' never know):

*Guarantee of rights and freedoms – section 1*
1. Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

Can it fairly be said that putting a prophylactic on Christmas family gatherings can be "demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society"? Some might answer in the negative.

An example of the kind of havoc that might flow from a breach of the Ontario regulation can be seen in this video:


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

peterk said:


> What _is_ there to understand about asymptomatic carriers? That they hardly exist? Or that it's not possible for the scientists (i.e. contract tracing nursing staff + others phone call makers) to ever figure out what low low percentage of asymptomatic carriers there really are because there are so many symptomatic out there anyways, plus people who lie to the tracers, plus the tracing being inadequate fundamentally?


About the only clinical study I can find on asymptomatic cases.









Post-lockdown SARS-CoV-2 nucleic acid screening in nearly ten million residents of Wuhan, China - Nature Communications


Large-scale population screening can provide insights to levels of ongoing SARS-CoV-2 transmission. Here, the authors report a citywide screening of ~10,000,000 residents of Wuhan and show that SARS-CoV-2 infection prevalence was very low five to eight weeks after the end of lockdown.




www.nature.com





"Virus cultures were negative for all asymptomatic positive and repositive cases, indicating no “viable virus” in positive cases detected in this study. "

sample size 10,000,000


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

That study in China was one of the reasons the world didn't think the COVID was dangerous as it is.

It was Chinese propaganda and any doctors or scientists who disagreed with it were arrested and disappeared.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> That study in China was one of the reasons the world didn't think the COVID was dangerous as it is.
> 
> It was Chinese propaganda and any doctors or scientists who disagreed with it were arrested and disappeared.


Which is exactly why it is dangerous to give the government the authority to restrict speech.
Particularly things that are true.

That's why Trudeaus China inspired "misinformation laws" are so dangerous. But hey, you imitate those you adminre.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Mukhang pera said:


> Yes Virginia, these are actual laws. Santa will have to obey them.


not in my city. Council unanimously approved Santa being an essential service and will be able to visit homes. But still must remain 6 feet away and wear a mask.

there was a guideline for hand sanitizer to be left with the milk and cookies.









Calgary city council requesting ‘clause’ declaring Santa an essential service


In what may be one of their most important pieces of business this year, Calgary city councillors asked the province to grant Santa Claus certain COVID-19 exemptions.




globalnews.ca




Santa Clause


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Seems all of ontario is going into lockdown on Christmas Eve for 28 days in Southern Ontario. Ford is supposed to provide details tomorrow, but apparently rules will be similar to those we had in March.
So the law may be different soon.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Good ... better for everyone in Ontario.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Plugging Along said:


> not in my city. Council unanimously approved Santa being an essential service and will be able to visit homes. But still must remain 6 feet away and wear a mask.
> 
> there was a guideline for hand sanitizer to be left with the milk and cookies.
> 
> ...


That's good PA, although I think you are not in Ontario, where Santa will be _persona non grata_ this Christmas. In Ontario, I would say no city council is sufficiently omnipotent as to have the _vires _to overrule the legislature_._

For those outside Ontario, expect to find, in addition to a lump of coal in your Christmas stocking, a can of sardines and 454 grams of rice! And, with luck, a few garlic cloves.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

deleted


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Mukhang pera said:


> That's good PA, although I think you are not in Ontario, where Santa will be _persona non grata_ this Christmas. In Ontario, I would say no city council is sufficiently omnipotent as to have the _vires _to overrule the legislature_._
> 
> For those outside Ontario, expect to find, in addition to a lump of coal in your Christmas stocking, a can of sardines and 454 grams of rice! And, with luck, a few garlic cloves.


Not in Ontario, but my province has a partial lock down. No gatherings inside or OUTSDE about with anyone outside of the people living your building, other than care givers and few exceptions. we doing zoom calls with our families. We all are making beef Wellington in We ur own homes, doing a little socially distant door drop of gifts and treats, and will just celebrate differently. 

Thanks to the sardine thread, I did buy 4 cans of sardines on sale, 3 bulbs garlic, and I already had two 20kg bags of rice before the thread. i intend to make the garlic fried rice As you suggested.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

What is the infection rate in Santa's Village ? How is the hospital holding up ? Are the schools closed ?

Are the elves and helpers receiving SERB (Santa Emergency Relief Benefit) ?

So many questions.......so few answers.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Plugging Along said:


> ...
> We all are making beef Wellington in We ur own homes, doing a little socially distant door drop of gifts and treats, and will just celebrate differently.
> 
> Thanks to the sardine thread, I did buy 4 cans of sardines on sale, 3 bulbs garlic, and I already had two 20kg bags of rice before the thread. i intend to make the garlic fried rice As you suggested.


Beef Wellington! That's quite a variant on the traditional Christmas turkey. I have not had a good Beef Wellington since time out of mind. Sounds good.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Mukhang pera said:


> Beef Wellington! That's quite a variant on the traditional Christmas turkey. I have not had a good Beef Wellington since time out of mind. Sounds good.


A family member just moved back from the UK and didn’t get her British Christmas. iI am going to try Gordon Ramsey’s beef Wellington. We like to try different cuisines at Christmas. Last year we did a ‘Jewish‘ Christmas.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Ontario government delayed the lock downs until after Christmas, so hospitals are expecting a big surge of patients shortly after.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

My family has decided to go to Florida for 3 weeks instead. What a joke!


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Not sure how old your family is so maybe it isn't a joke because of this latest news ... 

Canadian snowbirds older than 70 could receive vaccine in Florida within weeks

Anyhow, follow the rules and stay safe.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Money172375 said:


> My family has decided to go to Florida for 3 weeks instead. What a joke!


No problem, as long as they obey the 14 day self isolation requirement when they return (also means staying away from all family members). If they fail to isolate for 14 days, they are putting your community in danger.

And yeah, maybe they can get vaccinated in Florida. No problem there.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> My family has decided to go to Florida for 3 weeks instead. What a joke!


Maybe by then Trudeau will close the border and put them in mandatory quarantine for 2 weeks upon their return.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

My family just sent a video from Florida. The local “strip” of restaurants were open and busy. Patios with Outdoor live music, dancing, shoulder-to-shoulder seniors enjoying happy-hour, looking for their next spouse.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Money172375 said:


> seniors enjoying happy-hour, looking for their next spouse.


What is the price for those drinks at happy hour. Only 2 dead people, they hope they don't know, as opposed to the 4 dead regular price?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^^ I hope your family got their vaccinations before the "*s*_*houlder-to-shoulder* seniors enjoying happy-hour, looking for their next spouse_" event.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Not sure which thread to stick this in. Just a brief clip on how the flu got absolutely crushed by the social distancing measures implemented this winter. Normally we see 40k detected cases of flu, this year, only 64. This also goes to show how despite the flu getting absolutely clobbered by these measures, we had hundreds of thousands of COVID cases detected, so COVID is far, far more contagious.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Everyone just needs some exposure to the Corona virus Exposure that does not kill them of course (vaccination is the best), and I think the teeth will be mostly removed from it and probably all new variants for the majority of people on the planet going forward. People may get sick but probably won't be dying, at least in large numbers.

I know our problem with getting ahead of the flu has been mutations and mutations happen when people get the flu and it replicates inside their bodies. I wonder if this serious reduction in flu cases might also significantly slow down the flu issue for us for a number of years going forward. Just a theory I was thinking about before the post above.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The real problem with the flu is that there is a reservoir of the virus in birds, etc. That is partly how it spreads through N/S migration. Hopefully COVID does not become similar, though it is clear that it can infect some animals, including some domesticated species like mink.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> The real problem with the flu is that there is a reservoir of the virus in birds, etc. That is partly how it spreads through N/S migration. Hopefully COVID does not become similar, though it is clear that it can infect some animals, including some domesticated species like mink.


Coronaviruses are widespread in nature, and the human population. They're very common. You've probably had one a few dozen times already.

I think part of the confusion is that we have historically ignored them, because until SARS & COVID19 (aka SARS-CoV-2), nobody cared.


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## Canadiangal (May 12, 2021)

Money172375 said:


> I don’t foresee any fallout but I’d really want to know if the social gathering limits are actual laws, not just guidelines.


I feel the fact you care, and are looking for information is great! 👏 Also sounds like your really aren't comfortable with them coming. So, listen to your gut. Under the health care act certain positions can enforce this. The guidelines are meant to be followed, as suggested by our scientists & top medical research/disease persons. All it takes is one person....that's all! So would grandma's life be sacrificed, or your spouse, or maybe your child?? That roulette game that doesn't need to be played. Spend Christmas with just your household bubble and play safe. Too many stories read about just such situations. Especially in hot spots!!


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