# Basement leaking 2 year old house



## Chad (Jan 30, 2011)

Good day thought I'd reach out and see what some fellow CMF'ers would do if presented with my current situation. Lots of savvy individuals here. Anyways I'll sum this up as neatly as I can. I bought a 2 year old house (first house) from the original owners in May 2014 via Comfree in Edmonton. I hired a licenced home inspector ($500) to check it out who gave it the thumbs up, great no major issues so I bought it. 1 month later it rains and I discover my basement foundation walls leak due to multiple settlement cracks which were not visible due to insulation. Had some contractors check it out $5,000 + to fix it they are saying. So I contact the previous owners who of course deny any knowledge of it. I then contact Alberta New Home Warranty Program because there is currently a 5 year structural warranty on the home. After having to pay a $105 fee to submit a claim they reject it because leaking basements settlement cracks are not covered I am informed, typical insurance company. 

Well at least I can leave a negative review on Homestars website for the homebuilder that built the house to inform others. So that's what I did and was promptly served a nasty letter from the homebuilder informing me to not publish any negative statements on the net or I will be sued for "defamation". On top of it I had to take the review down because I am not the original owner. 

Intuitively this is just wrong to me on so many levels but am I just asking for more pain trying to fight this? Is it just in my best interest to suck it up deal with it and move on?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Chad said:


> Good day thought I'd reach out and see what some fellow CMF'ers would do if presented with my current situation. Lots of savvy individuals here. Anyways I'll sum this up as neatly as I can. I bought a 2 year old house (first house) from the original owners in May 2014 via Comfree in Edmonton. I hired a licenced home inspector ($500) to check it out who gave it the thumbs up, great no major issues so I bought it.


As usual, home inspections only reveal surface problems..normally they don't go between the drywall and insulation to check on mold or cracked foundations, and if these problems are discovered later due to water leaking inside, the home inspectors will just tell you.."well it wasn't leaking the day I inspected your home, so what do you want me to do with it now?":apologetic:



> 1 month later it rains and I discover my basement foundation walls leak due to multiple settlement cracks which were not visible due to insulation. Had some contractors check it out $5,000 + to fix it they are saying. So I contact the previous owners who of course deny any knowledge of it.


Of course the previous owners will deny it..if they had leakage, (and I'm sure they did), they certainly wouldn't reveal that serious problem (like a leaking roof) or a flood in the back yard due to torrential rains) on the real estate listing...they would be "cutting their own throats" if they did, as that would require an intensive foundation evaluation by a QUALIFIED FOUNDATION company, NOT some home inspector. 

These analysis cost a LOT MORE THAN the typical $500 that your normal "run of the mill-one hour
walk through-check-check-here's my bill-thank you" home inspection will reveal.



> I then contact Alberta New Home Warranty Program because there is currently a 5 year structural warranty on the home. After having to pay a $105 fee to submit a claim they reject it because leaking basements settlement cracks are not covered I am informed, typical insurance company.


No; settlement cracks of the foundation are generally not covered and of course this is the MAJOR ISSUE with poured foundations and footings on unsettled ground, clay (which turns to basically plasticine with a lot of ground water) or any issue with lack of proper weeping tile around the circumference of the poured foundation. To make a basement truly leak proof, the proper technique has to be used from the start to ensure that when cracks do appear (and often minor cracks will), the surface preparation on THE OUTSIDE of the cement foundation will protect the home owner from water seepage. 

*To do it right (as Holmes for Homes) would say is:*
1. to excavate around the complete perimeter of the foundation and let the foundation dry out to remove any surface moisture

2. Fix any existing cracks by chiseling out the crack , and injecting either epoxy cement or hydraulic cement into the crack(s).

3.Paint on a tar based foundation coating on the surface of the repaired crack cement.

4. *Add a waterproof foundation membrane on the newly treated cement surface
*
5. Add gravel for drainage and drainage "tile" (round corrugated 4 inch flex tubing with holes) around the the perimeter of he house, so that the run off is away from the foundation of the house. 



> Well at least I can leave a negative review on Homestars website for the homebuilder that built the house to inform others. So that's what I did and was promptly served a nasty letter from the homebuilder informing me to not publish any negative statements on the net or I will be sued for "defamation". On top of it I had to take the review down because I am not the original owner.


Ouch! Yes, negative criticism can get you into hot water sometimes, and it doesn't really do anything to RESOLVE YOUR CURRENT ISSUE.



> Intuitively this is just wrong to me on so many levels but am I just asking for more pain trying to fight this? Is it just in *my best interest to suck it up deal with it and move on?*


*The pain!..will now be YOUR FINANCIAL PAIN..unfortunately*, :sorrow:

*your are the second homeowner and the original builders warranty doesn't apply to you AFAIK. (only the first time buyer generally)*

Yes *"suck it up, buttercup" and learn from this experience*. You are not unique when it comes to buying resale homes
with hidden undisclosed problems.

Your (probable recourse) *may be one of two options* ....(from my experience on a leaking cracked foundation of my current 42 year old home) 

*Option 3*,of course, is suing the former owner and real estate agent..very expensive litigation and
*IF YOU LOSE IN CIVIL COURT..you are required by the court to pay the legal expenses of the former owner and
the real estate company if they are involved in the law suit as well as your own*. 
Think it out VERY CAREFULLY, should you decide to go this way. Not only will the court case drag on..but the lawyer(s) will want you to *fund them out of your pocket for THOUSANDS*...the money you should be spending on repairing your foundation..to eliminate aggravation/stress on your part...not adding to it in a legal battle..with a possible undetermined outcome. 

*OPTION 1: DIY*.yes you can do it (tools and expertise available from Home-Depot etc)

1. Find the approximate area of leakage on the INSIDE of your basement. This means removing all drywall in the area
where you suspect the water is seeping from, and YOU CAN DO IT YOURSELF cheaply..PROVIDED IT IS a minor crack
and only in ONE PLACE on the foundation.

Note: if the crack is in the footings (the cement part that the basement foundation walls sit on..YOU CANNOT do this yourself , as that will usually be below the concrete floor level..*that will be some expensive BAD NEWS for you in that case.*

If it's just a minor crack, chisel out the crack and inject hydraulic cement into the crack and fill the crack as much as
possible.

Dig down on THE OUTSIDE of the foundation where the crack is, chisel out the same crack, and inject hydraulic cement
then cover with a tar based foundation coating. 
Add some gravel for drainage around the crack to be sure water doesn't collect around the crack.

*OPTION 2:* Hire a CERTIFIED FOUNDATION REPAIR company and have them do the foundation repair and drainage properly,
the way it should have been done in the first place!:biggrin:


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## DayTek (Sep 26, 2013)

If we were in your position (and submitting a claim was rejected), we would suck it up, get it fixed ASAP and move on. 

If you want to discredit the builder...Word of mouth works pretty good! Maybe write an anonymous letter to a local newspaper explaining your story?

Rotten luck, but it sounds like the basement wasn't finished...In which case you'd be looking at an even bigger headache replacing valuables.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Basement leaks can be a minor problem or a major financial headache. It depends on the soil substrate that the house was built on and the fill used around the poured concrete foundation. ..lots of variables here. Sometimes the cracks don't show up for a few months after completion or even years. 

There are* many reasons for a foundation to crack*:

1. concrete/aggregate mixture-grade incorrect for the size and load of the house. 

2. Improper curing of concrete...especially in winter months (too cold water in poured concrete mix freezes) or in very hot summer days (too hot and water in concrete evaporates too quickly, which causes the concrete to set too fast = possible cracks.

3. The subsoil the concrete footings were poured on and the size of the footings. The footings are the concrete pads that the actual concrete wall is then poured on. If the footings are poured from an inferior grade of concrete or don't cure properly BEFORE the walls are poured..the footings will be weak and could crack themselves. 
With the weight of the concrete basement walls on a cracked footing, adding further load, the walls will crack due to uneven weight distribution of the house.

4. Subsoil shifting or the foundation was not poured on UNDISTURBED SUBSOIL..if they just dug down 6 feet and poured it on a swampy part of the land..footings will shift over time, especially with a lot of ground water, freezing of that ground water in the winter months (depending on the the "frost line" for that particular part of the country}.
Here is Ottawa, last winter being so cold and the frost going down deeper than in previous years, we had a few water main breaks.

And of course, minor earth tremors could cause ground shifts and contribute to future cracks in the foundation
[Don't know if Edmonton gets any of these..but Ottawa is a class 4 earthquake zone due to the Ottawa river valley, and we do get tremors from time to time.]

5. Lack of proper sealing of exterior concrete foundation, fibrated tar coating, membrane and of course a drainage "tile" all around the perimeter.

Also the backfill has a lot to do with it..if they just bulldoze in the excavated clay soil..you got a nice sponge (sponges retain water:biggrin around the foundation of your house. 

Finally; Incorrect load distribution over the concrete walls based on the layout and design of the house..this is not usually a problem with a solid foundation subsoil and properly cured concrete walls, but in todays fast paced construction..it could be a possibility


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Might want to add another reason .. 6. .. neighbour's renovation (basement addition) project :frown:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> Might want to add another reason .. 6. .. neighbour's renovation (basement addition) project :frown:


That too...I just mention SOME of the reasons..there is a lot more..for instance..ground water aquifers underneath somewhere..causing soil levels in that are to drop down slightly, shifting soils etc etc, 
and who can forget those torrential rains that Calgary got last year, where the family car had to be replaced 
by a family boat for a while. 

- Blasting on a nearby construction project, like a new subdivision.
and 
Cycles of the sun, phases of the moon.. and maybe other cosmic perturbations.:biggrin:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

> *carverman*: That too...*I just mention SOME of the reasons*..there is a lot more..for instance..ground water aquifers underneath somewhere..causing soil levels in that are to drop down slightly, shifting soils etc etc,
> and who can forget those torrential rains that Calgary got last year, where the family car had to be replaced
> by a family boat for a while.
> 
> ...


 ... correct, anything that can cause a shift in the soil or foundation. My point is that once your neighbour start this kind of pet project, be sure to pay close attention. 

Now on a non-serious note, ... we don't need even need such such far-fetching cosmic perturbations - how about a gigantic sinkhole? This will do us all in nicely... so much for the reno! :cower:

Btw: do you need a permit to dig to fix your house's foundation?


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Chad, you say the home inspection did not reveal any issues and could not see the foundation wall due to it being insulated. Now unless the cracks and leak developed right after you taking ownership, there would be signs of previous water infiltrations; efflorvecence, rot, mould, musty odor. If not, then it could really be a bad luck where the foundation cracked during your ownership. If the evidence was truely missed, then your home inspector can be liable.

If you can prove the cracks were there while the previous owner occupied the place, then you have recourse against the seller - unless you bought with no legal warranty. In any case, you cannot go back to the builder for this, you need to settle the issue with the previous owner.

Send a registered letter to the seller advising them of the issue and offering them a reasonable delay (10-15 days) to come see the issue and/or have it repaired. If they don't, go ahead and get it repaired in order to prevent further damages. Then, you can easily pursue them in small claims court. You'll have nothing to lose. 

Ensure you follow the proper steps; detail and advise seller of the problem, take pictures, prove issue was there before you took ownership, offer seller to have it fixed OR fix it yourself and then pursue seller through small claims court.

Good luck!


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

Sorry to hear about your problems. Feel your pain. 

Having seen quite a few 'water in basement problems' I would say that while you are dealing with it, take as many steps as you can to mitigate it. Some of the problems are related to water too close to the house. Even with pathways for the water to get in, the further you can get water from the house the better. There are lots of good resources. Walk around outside and look at the grading. If it looks at all suspect then try to address it. Also, many builders take short cuts with eaves/down spouts. I was in Burlington, Ontario at my Mom's recently when they got hit with a huge down pour. She had had water in the basement on and off for years but not in a finished area so hadn't addressed it. She found it less and less tolerable and wanted to get the foundation dug up and new membrane and weepers installed as Carverman describes. Many of her neighbours had similar problems over the years. The builder had only put two downspouts on the same side of the house, on the same run of eaves, and this is a good sized, split level roof. (Most of her neighbours had similar eaves configurations) We had previously run those downspouts far from the house but the neighbour had just detached theirs from the storms and dropped them between the two houses so this made things worse. We had the eaves redone and added two additional downspouts on the opposite side of the house. So with this deluge of rain, almost all of her neighbours had flooded basements (feet of water!) and she didn't. This despite there being a new creek flowing past the house in the swale about 20 feet behind the house.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> Might want to add another reason .. 6. .. neighbour's renovation (basement addition) project :frown:


Also, LACK OF REBAR in the concrete basement foundation walls. This is very important to stop cracks from spreading.

Typically its' either lateral rod rebar (but smaller diameter rods), or the square type with 6 to 8 inch wire squares. 
If inserted in the concrete forms as the premix is being poured, it will strengthen the walls against stress cracks.

(I had this done to a new concrete floor in my garage last year. The original poured floor was done in slipshod way by the builder without any rebar or the proper granular "A" crushed stone base. It cracked everywhere over the years due to water getting underneath the concrete at the front lip, causing the frost to do its work, and to some degree, the occasional earth tremors we get here in the Ottawa Valley.

The new concrete floor has grid wire style rebar to prevent any future cracks and the old base was hauled out, and new 10 inch Granular A crushed stone was put in and mechanically tamped down before the new concrete was poured.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that IF some builders do concrete mixing locally to save money in
construction costs of the foundatgion, and if the workers don't put in the correct proportions of cement, crushed stone, sand and curing agent..it tends to have voids and can be a very weak concrete foundation.


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

Interestingly, in the first house I owned, I had water coming through the basement foundation wall in two spots on opposite walls about 3 inches above the floors in places not far from where the downspouts ran down into the storms (can't do this around these parts anymore). It looked to me that the holes corresponded to where there would have been some form of ties holding the forms together when the concrete foundation was poured, either wood dowels or more likely metal rods. It looked like the ties had rotted or rusted out and left perfect holes. Fortunately, hydraulic cement from the inside and running the downspouts out did the trick and no more water.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

uptoolate;345785 said:


> The builder had only put two downspouts on the same side of the house, on the same run of eaves, and this is a good sized, split level roof. (Most of her neighbours had similar eaves configurations) We had previously run those downspouts far from the house but the neighbour had just detached theirs from the storms and dropped them between the two houses so this made things worse.
> We had the eaves redone and added two additional downspouts on the opposite side of the house. So with this deluge of rain, almost all of her neighbours had flooded basements (feet of water!) and she didn't. This despite there being a new creek flowing past the house in the swale about 20 feet behind the house.


Yes, having eavetroughs to catch the water runoff the roofs and redirect about 3 to 4 feet away with downspouts in the correct locations around the house..especially valleys between the roof sections, will greatly alleviate basement flooding. This *could* certainly help flooded basements ; as in the case of torrential rains such as Toronto got last summer, and Burlington got this year.

Redirecting the flow of water away from the house certainly helps, but at the same time IF the foundation has cracks in it..water will still find its way in as seepage. The foundation has to be done right..weepers are absolutely necessary and so is the membrane on the outside of the foundation. 

I always subscribe to "belts and suspenders" engineering in my endeavors., to avoid future problems in anything I undertake.

Undisturbed subsoil, premix concrete of the correct grade, proper curing, tar and membrane, weepers, crushed granular A about a foot thick around the foundation to drain water away, and of course eves troughs, rain gutters and redirecting rain water....I think that is the formula for a "dry basement'...

...unless of course you get a nasty sewer backup due to over whelmed city sewers..and all that ..black water coming into your basement. :biggrin:

There is a fix for that..but it costs money of course..a sewer backup preventer valve that needs to be installed in your
sewer line.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

uptoolate said:


> Interestingly, in the first house I owned, I had water coming through the basement foundation wall in two spots on opposite walls about 3 inches above the floors in places not far from where the downspouts ran down into the storms (can't do this around these parts anymore). It looked to me that the holes corresponded to where there would have been some form of ties holding the forms together when the concrete foundation was poured, either wood dowels or more likely metal rods. It looked like the ties had rotted or rusted out and left perfect holes. Fortunately, hydraulic cement from the inside and running the downspouts out did the trick and no more water.


*I had that same problem at my place.* The metal rods that held the front entrance concrete stoop to the foundation, one rod broke away after 35 years and caused the front stoop to drop on one side..that left a nice hole and a stress crack at the spot and of course water came in during a heavy rain after I first bought the place 18
years ago.

The builders back then did not believe in eves troughs, or in my builders case, cut corners with shoddy construction.

After the water came in after a torrential rain in June one year, I busted up the concrete stoop and had it hauled away, dug down around the hole and crack to the footings.

Chiseled out the crack on the outside, injected epoxy cement and then tarred over the crack, added a plastic sheet over the crack and tarred again to retain it. Dumped in granular A gravel in the 3 foot diameter hole to get at the crack. and then rebuilt the steps with interlock bricks + added some eves troughs. 

On the inside, I chiseled out the crack and injected epoxy cement to complete the crack repair.

I did this all myself, so other than the costs of new evestroughs, the crack repair cost me about $200 for
the cement, tar, and gravel to fill the hole. 

The builder was a cheapskate and did not install any weepers, but so far, with my foundation repairs,
and addition of eves troughs to redirect the flow of rainwater about 3 feet away from the foundation (on the rainwater roof drain side), no further water coming in in spite of heavy rains this summer. <fingers crossed>


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Friends of ours had somethign similar happen to them (also in Edmonton). Mind you the house was probably 45 yrs old. Bought it, one year later the basement springs a leak and they had to dig out around the basement and reseal. The basement was finished (and had been for 20 years) when they bought the house. I believe there was some grant from the city or province which helped with costs, but certainly not the whole cost as it was well in to 5 figures.

It could be that the crack only let through the big rains. That might only happen ever 2 years. It's quite possible it's happened before but the inspector did not check that particular area for moisture content.

Flooding due to rains is an issue in Edmonton as we do get some pretty intense storms, but generally dry otherwise. It is pretty flat too.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Mortgage u/w said:


> Chad, you say the home inspection did not reveal any issues and could not see the foundation wall due to it being insulated. Now unless the cracks and leak developed right after you taking ownership, there would be signs of previous water infiltrations; efflorvecence, rot, mould, musty odor. If not, then it could really be a bad luck where the foundation cracked during your ownership. If the evidence was truely missed, then your home inspector can be liable.



In most cases..good luck with that! Most home inspections have a disclaimer that they only reveal what they see as potential problems to the interested buyer. Anything the home inspector does not see at the time of the inspection, he (or she) is not responsible for what happens after.

For instance, if the foundation walls cracked due to an earthquake, blasting next door, flood, and other natural phenomena of biblical proportions..why should he be responsible for what happens after the new owner takes possession..in a resale at that... with no implied warranty..caveat emptor applies.



> If you can prove the cracks were there while the previous owner occupied the place, then you have recourse against the seller - unless you bought with no legal warranty. In any case, you cannot go back to the builder for this, you need to settle the issue with the previous owner.


How is the new owner going to prove that the cracks were there while the previous owner occupied the place?
If no water was coming in* at the time of the inspection* and the *home owner was NOT AWARE of any cracks *that could cause future leaks, why should the previous owner be responsible for what happens down the road, after the new owner takes possession.

Lets say it was an old roof, and somehow the inspector didn't see any damage underneath the shingles..and the previous owner did not replace the roof because he/she were going to sell anyway..should the new owner of the home sue them for a new roof...or some other situation that happens later..like a burst water tank flooding the basement?



> Send a registered letter to the seller advising them of the issue and offering them a reasonable delay (10-15 days) to come see the issue and/or have it repaired. If they don't, go ahead and get it repaired in order to prevent further damages. *Then, you can easily pursue them in small claims court. You'll have nothing to lose. *


You would have to prove in small claims court* to the satisfaction of the court, that the owner knowingly sold you the property with a cracked foundation*.
If the cracks were hidden by drywall, and the inspector could not or did not detect the crack, and there was NO evidence of water coming in..good luck in small claims court proving your case.

The small claims court judges want to see EVIDENCE (pictures) BEFORE the property was purchased and AFTER the property was purchased....small claims courts do not go on hearsay evidence "he said this.. and he said that".



> Ensure you follow the proper steps; detail and advise seller of the problem, take pictures, *prove issue was there before you took ownership, offer seller to have it fixed OR fix it yourself and then pursue seller through small claims court.*


That "proof" is the *key piece of evidence you need BEFORE GOING TO SMALL CLAIMS COURT*..if you cannot prove your case to the satisfaction of the judge sitting, and the real estate company did not disclose any problems and the house inspection did not reveal any problems on the day of inspection..you may be placed in jeopardy in small claims court IF you cannot prove your case sufficiently that the problem existed before you bought it, and the owner was fully aware of it... BUT "forgot" or didn't disclose it as an "oversight".

It all depends on the evidence, proof and the judges discretion at the time. If the previous owner decided to hire
a lawyer to fight you in court..*and you lose your case...the other parties lawyer can ask the court for full re-imbursement of* their legal fees.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Carverman, maybe you did not interpret my message well. Obtaining proof of an existing issue IS indeed possible. If it were impossible, then all cases presented before courts would be obsolete....no proof, no case. 
I am not pointing figures at the home inspector - I'm an inspector myself. Just saying that maybe some of the pictures in his report can reveal the presence of something along the affected area. Maybe the foundation crack was visible on the outside but the inspector omitted to reveal the possibility of a water infiltration? In any case, if there truely is no evidence, then the problem really occured after the sale so Chad, you'll need to assume the costs.

I've seen a case where a homeowner was able to prove (45 years later) that a single drywall screw punctured a water pipe behind the wall ever so slightly allowing the water to leak out drop by drop and caused a heap of internal mould and stucture deformation over the years. They managed to get all the previous owners in court (4 in total) in order to pay for the damages ($38,000 worth). The plaintiff would have won had it not been for his home inspection report - it clearly mentioned in his report that the inspector noted a slight deformation along a supporting wall which would require a further investigation. The buyer chose to ignore the recommendation so the judge ruled against him since it was assumed he was made aware of the issue and accepted it as is. 
Moral: 1- 'Proofs' are very attaignable. 2- follow-up on your home inspector's recommendations.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Mortgage u/w said:


> Carverman, maybe you did not interpret my message well. Obtaining proof of an existing issue IS indeed possible. If it were impossible, then all cases presented before courts would be obsolete....no proof, no case.
> I am not pointing figures at the home inspector - I'm an inspector myself. Just saying that maybe some of the pictures in his report can reveal the presence of something along the affected area. Maybe the foundation crack was visible on the outside but the inspector omitted to reveal the possibility of a water infiltration? In any case, if there truely is no evidence, then the problem really occured after the sale so Chad, you'll need to assume the costs.
> 
> I've seen a case where a homeowner was able to prove (45 years later) that a single drywall screw punctured a water pipe behind the wall ever so slightly allowing the water to leak out drop by drop and caused a heap of internal mould and stucture deformation over the years. They managed to get all the previous owners in court (4 in total) in order to pay for the damages ($38,000 worth). The plaintiff would have won had it not been for his home inspection report - it clearly mentioned in his report that the inspector noted a slight deformation along a supporting wall which would require a further investigation. The buyer chose to ignore the recommendation so the judge ruled against him since it was assumed he was made aware of the issue and accepted it as is.
> Moral: 1- 'Proofs' are very attaignable. 2- follow-up on your home inspector's recommendations.


"Mortgage"; Not saying that a home inspection report is NOT useful..but it really depends what is ON the report,
...is all I'm trying to say here.

Yes, there are cases and extenuating circumstances where you can take the previous home owner and home inspector, seller, and perhaps the broker/real estate agent to court and win your case..but unless the roof caves in due to unreported termite damage and injures you, it's a lot harder when everything is hearsay in court.


Case in point here: Is that the home inspection ordered by the buyer, did NOT reveal a cracked foundation at time of inspection, before or immediately after possession date. 

Had the inspector done a closer examination of the basement for efflorescence, (which can happen without
water leaking in), or black mold on the outside of the portion of drywall down to grade level, or any other sign that water had been coming in ..AND...the inspector took a picture of that..the case could be stronger..but even if that was the case, the inspector still had a duty to inform the prospective buyer that there was evidence of water in the basement from a possible crack in the foundation.

That, from what the OP mentioned, appeared NOT to be the case, and they went ahead and bought the property without mentioning it to the real estate agent and the selling broker/agent and their lawyer.


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## Chad (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks for all the advice. I will look into taking the previous owners to small claims but without a "smoking gun" proving they were aware of it, I will not pursue it. I lived in it for a month and found the leaks. I doubt they were not aware of it after living in it for over a year and a half. There were no realtors involved it was a private sale. The home inspector let me down big time. I'll try requesting a refund. I even walked around with him throughout the inspection. In hindsight I believe there were a couple clues he should have picked up on i.e. rusty staples holding poly to studs. He also never checked for moisture content. As for this sham called "Alberta New Home Warranty Program" not much I can do about it. Hmm I wonder if all the home builders on the ANHWP board of directors has anything to do with it? https://www.anhwp.com/Board-Directors/ 

Ultimately I feel the responsibility lies with the home builder. Am I as a consumer asking too much if all I want is a basement that does not leak from a 2 year old house? I have better warranty on my 3 year old car. I really want to reveal the builder's name but according to the homebuilder's lawyer I will be sued for "defamation". How could it be defamation I wonder if all I am simply stating are facts? Nothing false or misleading about that. I just want to warn others. I thought I took all the necessary precautions but still managed to step on a landmine. Any sense of protection was just an illusion. It shouldn't be that way the system is fundamentally broken in my opinion favoring the home builders interests. I know I am not unique. I am only thankful that my basement wasn't finished like others were. Off to home Depot to get a shovel me thinks.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Chad said:


> As for this sham called "Alberta New Home Warranty Program" not much I can do about it. Hmm I wonder if all the home builders on the ANHWP board of directors has anything to do with it? https://www.anhwp.com/Board-Directors/


There are many people that think that with a name like Alberta New Home Warranty Program, it's related to the gov. But it's not, it's a for profit insurance business. Smart marketing I guess.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If you have concrete..........you are going to get cracks.

It could happen in 2 years, 20 years...........or in the case of our rented townhouse......60 years.

Our entire row of townhouses is sinking on one end. We have all developed minor cracks in the basements and walls.

The ground shifts........and you get cracks.

Be thankful you aren't like some new home owners........discovering their whole house is sinking into the ground.

As a homeowner of 5 homes over the years............there is always something going wrong.

I doubt you will get anywhere with legal proceedings. Concrete cracks are pretty well inevitable.

When we had cracks in the basement (about 2 years after the house was built)............a guy drilled some pegs into the wall and blew in some "goop" under high pressure. Our concrete patio cracked 8 years later and our concrete sidewalk held out for 15 years before it developed a crack.

Our rented townhouse had the same work done recently........after 60 years of no cracks in the basement.

The process worked well on both occasions...........so you could check that out. It is a lot cheaper than digging around the foundation.........and even after doing that........the concrete will probably crack again.

Just make sure that all outside landscaping is directed away from the house, and all eavetroughs are clear and carry the water far enough away.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> *If you have concrete..........you are going to get cracks.*


Yes, unless, you live in ideal conditions, solid rock base, special concrete, rebar, steady climate, and a house design that is 150% over engineered for load stresses.




> *As a homeowner of 5 homes over the years............there is always something going wrong.*


Yup, and every "few years" you have a major expense..new roof, driveway resurface, furnace and A/C replacement, water tank replacement, tap washers need to be replaced, toilet tank valves need to be replaced...and the list goes on....



> *I doubt you will get anywhere with legal proceedings. Concrete cracks are pretty well inevitable.*


This is my view as well..sure one can say.."what the hay!..the former owner sold me a property that has all sorts of problems with it..
they should be responsible for fixing these defects from now on..why should I pay for these extraordinary expenses, even if I happen to OWN it now. 

I'll just go and sue..lets see..the former owner, the real estate agents, the home inspector, anybody involved with
the sale and maybe nobody involved in the sale, and maybe..just maybe, I can prove my case in court.....:biggrin:




> The process worked well on both occasions...........so you could check that out. It is a lot cheaper than digging around the foundation.........and even after doing that........the concrete will probably crack again.


They probably injected hydraulic or epoxy cement into the crack, the pegs are just 'keepers" to keep the crack from spreading (but this depends on what is causing the crack to form in the first place..such as footings sinking a bit, or the house load causing a stress crack due to uneven load distribution at that point...especially in walls that are not rectangular, and takes jogs to accommodate another part of the house, such as an addition done at the time or even later..and so on

I agree that in most cases, you don't need to manually dig around the foundation and a quick fix from inside the basement will be sufficient as you mention SAGs, 
but if you want to be sure....do it like Mike Holmes suggests in his show (HOLMES ON HOMES)..dig around the foundation, fix the existing cracks, add the fibrated tar coating and drainage membrane, and weepers
and gravel all around the perimeter..much more expensive, but then you don't need to ever worry about
basement water coming in...
....unless of course, torrential rains visit your vicinity and the city sewers overflow into your basement.:biggrin:


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Chad said:


> Thanks for all the advice. I will look into taking the previous owners to small claims but without a "smoking gun" proving they were aware of it, I will not pursue it. I lived in it for a month and found the leaks. I doubt they were not aware of it after living in it for over a year and a half. There were no realtors involved it was a private sale. The home inspector let me down big time. I'll try requesting a refund. I even walked around with him throughout the inspection. In hindsight I believe there were a couple clues he should have picked up on i.e. rusty staples holding poly to studs. He also never checked for moisture content. As for this sham called "Alberta New Home Warranty Program" not much I can do about it. Hmm I wonder if all the home builders on the ANHWP board of directors has anything to do with it? https://www.anhwp.com/Board-Directors/
> 
> Ultimately I feel the responsibility lies with the home builder. Am I as a consumer asking too much if all I want is a basement that does not leak from a 2 year old house? I have better warranty on my 3 year old car. I really want to reveal the builder's name but according to the homebuilder's lawyer I will be sued for "defamation". How could it be defamation I wonder if all I am simply stating are facts? Nothing false or misleading about that. I just want to warn others. I thought I took all the necessary precautions but still managed to step on a landmine. Any sense of protection was just an illusion. It shouldn't be that way the system is fundamentally broken in my opinion favoring the home builders interests. I know I am not unique. I am only thankful that my basement wasn't finished like others were. Off to home Depot to get a shovel me thinks.


Rusted staples or nails are signs of high levels of humidity which would have required further investigation. Just how much water are we talking about? Did you have signs of efflorvescence anywhere along the affected area prior to the water leak? If no, then I could believe that the previous home owners did not know about the leak. Water always leaves a trace and your home inspector would have surely caught that. 

Ultimately, take pictures with dates on them. The more you can prove the leak occured right after ownership, the stronger your case. Even if the previous owners were not aware, it remains a latent defect which the previous owner is responsible for. Ensure you bought with legal warranty otherwise your claim could be rejected. (see your sale act).

You cannot blame the contractor because they have no control on ground settlement. There is no foundation that be built and guaranteed not to crack. They will all sooner or later crack. When they do, you need to monitor the crack and ensure water does not come in. In your case, it does. Case of bad luck. Get it repaired....I think the quotes you got of $5000 are exaggerated. An epoxy or polyurethane injection is no more than a few hundred dollars. If you need to dig, you could reach $1000, but at $5000, you're doing more than just fixing a crack.

You cannot blame the home inspector either since he cannot see through walls. Give him a call anyways to see what he recommends...he should come back out of courtesy to see the issue and offer solutions.

I know the feeling you have; discouraged, anger, let down, taken advantage of....but you cannot just look for someone to blame. Put all that aside and tackle the problem now....you'll see its not that big a deal anymore. Deal with the culprit later. 

My opinion: rather than send nasty letters to everyone, have a good discussion with the previous owners explaining the situation. Try to come up with an agreement for settling the issue such as splitting the cost 50/50. Make them understand that had they lived in the house an extra month, they would have noticed the leak and would have had to repair it. Try to avoid the courts....that route can cause other and bigger headaches! Its in your best interest to not get on everyone's bad side as they can all turn on you and offer no assistance at all. Then you're really on your own!


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Just curious if the OP had any work done since he moved in ,I sold a house in 2001 and had no issues with a finished basement .The new buyer ripped out our basement and rebuilt it and about 5 weeks later tried to sue me for the leak in the basement.When you sign off on the home inspection clause in a deal you are usually SOL on these issues.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

marina628 said:


> Just curious if the OP had any work done since he moved in ,I sold a house in 2001 and had no issues with a finished basement .The new buyer ripped out our basement and rebuilt it and about 5 weeks later tried to sue me for the leak in the basement.When you sign off on the home inspection clause in a deal you are usually SOL on these issues.


A latent defect is just that: a discovered issue no one was aware of. It can be discovered within 5 weeks, 5 years or 15 years....either one, its a hidden defect. Its a tough case to win cause the plantiff will need to prove without a doubt that the issue existed prior to the sale. What happened in your case, marina?

The home inspection has nothing to do with it (unless there is proof the inspector failed to disclose an apparent issue)


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

Mortgage u/w said:


> You cannot blame the contractor because they have no control on ground settlement. There is no foundation that be built and guaranteed not to crack. They will all sooner or later crack. When they do, you need to monitor the crack and ensure water does not come in.


Not sure that I agree with this. While it is true that even properly constructed foundations on properly prepared sites can develop cracks, I would wager quite a bit of money that most significant cracks developing within an initial time frame of 2-5 years are the result of poor design or workmanship. Caverman and others outlined many issues related to concrete foundation construction and where things can go wrong. As well, many cracks will not result in water ingress if the foundation has been properly sited, the site well prepared and appropriate coating, membrane, weepers, backfill and grading have been done. Houses recently constructed should have all of these things done properly. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, execution is sometimes faulty and problems develop. A show like Holmes on Holmes is great for showing some of the ridiculous things that get done in home construction and renovation. I would suspect that there is a good chance that the builder is at fault, getting any satisfaction is a totally separate matter.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

uptoolate said:


> Not sure that I agree with this. While it is true that even properly constructed foundations on properly prepared sites can develop cracks, I would wager quite a bit of money that most significant cracks developing within an initial time frame of 2-5 years are the result of poor design or workmanship. Caverman and others outlined many issues related to concrete foundation construction and where things can go wrong. As well, many cracks will not result in water ingress if the foundation has been properly sited, the site well prepared and appropriate coating, membrane, weepers, backfill and grading have been done. Houses recently constructed should have all of these things done properly. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, execution is sometimes faulty and problems develop. A show like Holmes on Holmes is great for showing some of the ridiculous things that get done in home construction and renovation. I would suspect that there is a good chance that the builder is at fault, getting any satisfaction is a totally separate matter.


So if you built a foundation using the best practices known......would you 'guarantee' it from not cracking and/or water infiltrations?


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

Absolutely not, there are no guarantees. And I explicitly stated that when I said,"While it is true that even properly constructed foundations on properly prepared sites can develop cracks". Unfortunately, many builders and renovators are far from 'using the best practices known' let alone always up to the letter of the codes. They are in business. This means they have to build and have a profit margin. Sometimes this means having to make 'compromises'. We all live in the real world, it's just unfortunate when someone gets stuck with a lemon. And I am not saying that in this instance, everything wasn't done exactly right and it was just bad luck. It certainly could have been. It also certainly may not have been. Let's ask all those owners of condos built in the 80s in Vancouver what they think. It happens in every building boom. There is only so much skilled labour.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Agree! Like you said, its unfortunate for the ones who get stuck.....


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

in our case nothing happened the guy gutted the basement and after he did the work he had the leak.


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

I think it's great that the ad at the bottom of my page is for clarkebasementsystems.com. 'Patented Waterproofing System. Get Free Inspection & Estimate Now!' LOL


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## johnlena (Sep 6, 2014)

You might be able to fix the problem by chiseling around each tie location to create a hole about 1⁄2 inch deep and a couple of *inches in diameter. Chisel out as much of each tie as you can, then fill the hole with hydraulic cement.If the leaking doesn’t stop, you’ll have to take more drastic action by excavating around the outside of the foundation and patching that side.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Defamation suits are very expensive, much more expensive than the repair of the defect. Lawyer's letters are cheaper than defamation suits. The house leaked, it's two years old and was built by SueHappy Builders. 

Assholes that take advantage of people's trust are on my list.


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## eng911 (Aug 9, 2014)

*Fix it yourself*

I had two major cracks from the corners of basement windows all the way to the floor. I was getting water in with every rainstorm. The house was also a couple of years old. I ordered one of these DIY injection kits. I followed the instructions carefully, watched a bunch of videos on Youtube and fixed the problem. I am not even handy when it comes to home repair but I got through it. 

Search on Kijiji and you'll also find guys who do this at reasonable prices. Cracks in basements are very common. Some companies will always pitch you the $5000 repair first as they are in business to make money. 

I used a kit something like this .... but many that are similar can be found via google.

http://www.appliedtechnologies.com/home/fast_set_concrete_foundation_crack_repair_kit0.html


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Berubeland said:


> Defamation suits are very expensive, much more expensive than the repair of the defect. Lawyer's letters are cheaper than defamation suits. The house leaked, it's two years old and *was built by SueHappy Builders*.
> 
> Assholes that take advantage of people's trust are on my list.



wOw! Let's say 'B" that I wouldn't want to be on your bad list.:biggrin:

I think we have discussed this issue up the "ying-yang" and although there are lots of good suggestions...the reality is
that as a second time buyer on this 2 year old home with a leaking basement, what might have been a contract between the builder and the original buyer... is no longer applicable with the second buyer on any future defects.

The new buyer should have taken due diligence to ensure; that on the offer to purchase through the real estate company, that there was a clause inserted that the vendor warrants that the basement (to the best of the vendor's knowledge) has not shown any signs of leaking.

Now even with this clause that has to be initialled by the vendor, there can be some leeway as well, as the vendor can tell the real estate agent, "sure to the best of my knowledge, I have not seen any leaks in the basement" and be done with it.
If the entire basement wall coverings were not removed to verify that..(and as a home owner, I would never allow a
potential buyer to instruct someone to come in to tear apart the finished walls on my basement), I can say.."ok to the
best of my knowledge..my basement is not leaking NOW. 

So lets say, I sell my place and a torrential rain occurs and lots of water everywhere..some water comes in a crack in the
foundation that previously appeared dry...should I be sued because of that? Should I warrant that after you buy my
home that the roof or the basement will never leak?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

You are right Carver........and that is the thing about cracks in concrete.

They just show up one day..........and they don't leak when it rains...........until one day they do.

During the last rain deluge here in London, both the neighboring units in our townhouse complex sprang leaks in the basement that weren't there before.

It just happens.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Ok so if this is not a problem why is the builder threatening to sue OP? WTF a two year old house should not have goddamn cracks in the foundation wall. Why would you say this is even acceptable? It's not a house that is two years old should not have foundation cracks and if it does, the builder should be fixing the hell out of it, apologizing and trying to find out what caused the problem instead of threatening to sue the owner for defamation because he complained online. 

Stating that I bought a 2 year old house that leaks that was built by ABC builders is the truth. If the builder doesn't like it they should stop building houses that leak after 2 years. 

People need to grow a pair when they get lawyer letters.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

sags said:


> You are right Carver........and that is the thing about cracks in concrete.
> 
> They just show up one day..........and they don't leak when it rains...........until one day they do.
> 
> ...



This is not true. Cracks in concrete do not "just happen" they are caused by faulty concrete, settling or something. People have a real problem understanding foundation crack leaks as well. First of all the very first defense against basement leaks is to divert water away from the basement. No water no leak. It is a house not a boat. Any house will leak if it is sitting in water because concrete is porous. It will even seep right through the slab on the bottom. The point is leaky basements do not "just happen"


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## robs (May 6, 2016)

*Basement leak*

The basement normally leaks when the clogged gutter overflows. Remove any leaves or debris left over from winter and then install leaf guards and downspout extenders to direct the water from the house. Make sure that the surrounding soil is pitched away from the house at a slope of at least ¼ inch per foot so that the water drain towards the yard not to your foundation. Add soil, raking it smooth until the grade is highest at the house’s perimeter. My basement to leaked and I called brothers plumbing to fix the problem.


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## Newby1983 (Apr 9, 2015)

Be careful of contractors who fix nasent leaks. A lot of scum out there. 

1. Fix grading. Personally this has worked for me at 2 houses for a fraction of the cost. If the ground around the perimeter is dirt consider hard surfacing it with pavers, interlock,etc with proper slope and you'll still have money in the bank, nice walkway and a dry basement. 

2. Check eaves and downspouts. Does rainwater overflow at the location where water enters basement? Add another downspout somewhere else. Make sure your downspouts are discharging far enough away from the house. 

3. If it's a poured foundation expose the drywall (which you should do immediately anyway to prevent mould growth) and get it repaired using an epoxy injection. This worked for me at a 3rd house I had (can't do this with block foundation). 

I'd try these solutions first before spending lots of money. They have always worked for me. 
Good luck


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Settlement cracks per se are not unusual in concrete foundations. They're not built to be as water-tight as swimming pools.

The real issue is water leakage, which may be due to:
a) inadequate/faulty waterproofing on the outside (if the house is only 2 years old I would thing it has a membrane, not just an asphalt-based coating;
b) problems with the footing drainage; 
c) ground settlement around the house, so surface water doesn't run away (quite likely considering the usual crappy jobs done to backfill and grade around new homes); 
d) problems with roof draining too close to the house, (pouring water down the wall faster than footing drainage can take it away); or
e) a combination of any or all of the above.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Biggest reason for basement cracks is residential contractors normally have little oversight on quality control...esp concrete testing. Most basements are poured with soupy concrete that is easy to move around but adding water changes the water/cement ratio resulting in a high slump,segregation and weaker psi concrete. All concrete cracks, but high slump concrete cracks like a mother as it shrinks.

We used to laugh as morons poured what we called a 60/40 slump....60 feet that way down the forms & 40 feet the other way lol.


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