# At What Income Level Did You Start Being Content?



## Abii (Jun 22, 2017)

Sorry about the vague title. 

A while ago I saw THIS article from Huff. Post. It's a US study and it claims that at around the 75k mark, you won't become any happier as you make more money. I tend to agree with the article/"study," but I'd like to hear some personal experiences. 

Money matters of course. But once you have enough to put a roof over your head, save for your retirement and have enough left over for entertainment, does it make sense to constantly want more? All you do is become jealous, angry, anxious and miserable.

Basically I want to hear from people that are now in their 30's, 40's, 50's and hopefully 60's. Do you agree with what I said? If yes, what is that income range that you would be comfortable with.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I think it depends very much on how hard you have to work for extra money. Probably a bit of a bell curve. A lot of people have to work very hard for not a lot of money, and yet at some level of executive, it becomes less hard for that incremental $30-50k, or even incremental $1 million. No simple answer.


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Deleted


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

$3000 per month after deductions seems like a nice level. No idea what that is gross.

I should add that's if you don't plan to buy a house. Otherwise, probably $5000 a month.


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## Simon Says (Jan 5, 2013)

For me it wasn't a specific dollar amount. Let me explain.

About 10 years ago I was looking at our mortgage statement and realized that the amount we were paying in interest was ridiculous so we decided to pay the mortgage down. Now I was in my late 20's/early 30's and at first it was hard. My wife and I had been living paycheque to paycheque and really had to change our lifestyle. We never had enough money left, how could we pay off a mortgage? Well it turns out we wasted most of our money on pointless things and over the following three years we cut back on everything. When the mortgage was finally paid off the money we had been putting toward the mortgage was no longer needed and so we started saving, a few years after that our RRSPs were maxed out.

During those 5 years we hardly made any more money but because we changed our lifestyle now it felt like more than enough. Once we had no debt whatsoever and we had maxed out our RRSPs and still had money left it felt like enough.

Hope that makes sense,

Si~


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## treva84 (Dec 9, 2014)

A certain level of income will never make you content. You adapt to whatever you get, and there is more to be had (see hedonic adaptation / hedonic treadmill).

Research shows contentment comes from building strong relationships with your family / community, giving back to others, and practicing gratitude.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Hard to say what content really means...at 130k/yr I am no longer interested in working overtime. And if I must work overtime, I try and take the extra days off as time in-lieu if I'm able to. I wouldn't mind making a bit more, to the max RRSP limit income (145k). Anything after that is a pretty big jump in tax due to marginal rates and no more RRSP room.

More than what income makes me content, I think it's more about the savings amount that makes me content, which is directly related to spending as well.

When I'm saving 4k-5k/month, it would take a disaster to upset my budget, and if something goes wrong - my brand new computer dies, I waste a bunch of money on a vacation I hated, or the city burns down and I have to spend thousands out of pocket for months before the insurance pays back, it's not that big a deal and I don't get worked up over the wasted money. I'm able to move on and get over it quickly. C'est la vie.

If I made way more and was able to save 10k/month instead of 5k, I don't think I'd really feel any different, not much.

If I only made 75k/yr and savings was < $1500/month, then I'd _really_ have to think much more about my spending, minor life emergencies would blow up the budget, and saving for vacations would become a chore instead of a trivial matter.


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## new dog (Jun 21, 2016)

I found I was happiest when I made less. We would take inexpensive trips and vacations with the family and yet they were the most fun. Choices for clothes, food, furniture, renovations and everything was also easier to make as a family.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

^ Interesting new dog - I've been feeling recently that some of life's excitement just isn't there anymore, because I know I can merely spend a bit more money to get what I want or fix a problem. Just whip out the mastercard and stay in the last expensive hotel room in the city (Ottawa for Canada day when our AirBnB cancelled 24 hrs before arrival).

I haven't hitch-hiked or slept in a hostel or car for ages...


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

The issue with excess money is that you can do anything. Buy an appliance that is double what is needed. Fly first class. Buy vintage wine. Have multiple homes and cars. etc.

All these decisions become more difficult because money is no longer a gate keeper.

If $75k is all you need to cover the basics, then any excess can go to saving for retirement. Once you have achieved the necessary savings target, then you can truly do discretionary spending.

Of course the level will vary based on where you live. $75K might work in the GTA but $90k might be needed in the GVA and $50k might be just fine in Regina.

People I know who are rich (I live in West Vancouver), tend to buy Mercedes and BMW, and have multiple properties.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Having had a steady, stable income after having achieved a debt free lifestyle, I thought I was pretty happy...until I got injured, couldn't work for several years, was not eligible for any benefits, and wound up nearly losing everything, being dead broke, and living off credit cards.

After an experience like that, my uncle lived through the Great Depression and it never left his thinking, I don't think you ever get comfortable again. 

Today, my passive income is very strong. I have a lot of debt, but my assets are multiple times higher, yet I continue to add to my holdings. It is because I like the game? Perhaps, but part of me knows things can always change in a heartbeat.

A friend of mine, for example, was hit with a multimillion dollar lawsuit, way more than his insurance coverage. It looks like they don't have a case in my opinion, yet it's been dragging on for years and he's basically powerless in the outcome.

Things can change overnight, a little paranoia may not be a bad thing. Too much comfort can leave you vulnerable to surprises. 

All that being said, I earn a lot more today than I did before and I can say I'm happier (I work a lot less as well), not that I was unhappy back then, I just had nothing to compare to. As I continue to increase my holding, I can't say I'm getting busier, or more unhappy...but then it doesn't take more time and effort on my part.

If my income depended on a paycheque, my answer would be completely different though I can assure you.


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## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

_At What Income Level Did You Start Being Content? _ Interesting question. I don't believe that contentment can be related to income, or to material possessions. As was mentioned before, we all become quickly accustomed to any new circumstance by the process of "Hedonistic Adaptation". I started out in 1970 at age 20 with my first full time job which paid $280/month, which left me with just over $100 every payday. I was able to get by on that and I was content to be living on my own and paying my own way. Couldn't afford a car so I used a monthly bus pass. I didn't feel deprived. I've been retired for 12 years and have a yearly income of over $100k now and I'm still feeling very content. My wife and I raised 2 children with only my income and never in 47 years have we been short of money and were always content with our circumstance. It's called living within your means. Contentment is a state of mind which is unrelated to income. Some people will always be happy with what they have and for others there will never be enough.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

+1^ Pretty much my story except I started in 1971 at about $630/month in the nuclear power industry, albeit it took most of my 20s to see some financial cushion and more ability to relax and feel somewhat secure. Can't say that I've pined for anything since.... hence have been both satisfied and contented since that time.


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

IMO there is income level that will support your contentment but for me, it's kind of tough to pinpoint where it was.

If you study employee satisfaction and motivation, you'll likely come across Herzberg's two factor theory and Maslow's hierarchy of needs which IMO apply not only in the workplace but in overall life. The two factor theory splits basic needs (hygiene factors) and motivating factors. The hierarchy of needs builds from physical & safety needs up to social/relationships, goals & accomplishments, and self actualization. 
You generally need a certain level of income to provide you with basic needs like food, shelter, rest/downtime, etc. The cost of living of where you live is going to play a significant part on the amount of income required to support these basic needs. And beyond the basic needs, everyone is kind of different in terms of what they want/require from a social/relationship, goals/accomplishment, and self actualization needs perspective, how they go about achieving it, and the costs associated with how they go about achieving it. Hopefully, you don't have to throw a lot of money at it. 

It's hard for me to pinpoint an income level that made me content because everything is so dynamic. I wanted to earn more so I could more quickly pay down the mortgage (shelter base need). Retirement (safety) needs evolve. Two incomes have less of a burden than a single income. Etc. 
With the mortgage paid off, I think I'd be content at a basic level at $55-60k. In terms of not really noticing increases in income since the bulk of it's going towards extra savings on top of RRSP, TFSA, etc likely around $70k


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

To me most of these numbers are too vague to be meaningful. People like to throw around the gross annual income because I guess it makes them feel like they make more money than they really do. The tax rate at 100K and 50K is vastly different. It also differs by province. I only have a basic idea of what those equate to in real money.


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

On other angle no one has mentioned yet, and it's something I read recently, but can't recall where, is that earning and financial contentment is very much dependent on the people around you. As soon as you find out that you make more than your colleagues, or neighbours, you start feeling better about your income, even though in reality you could very well be underpaid.


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## WGZ (Feb 3, 2017)

I take home 40k a year, and where I live it's not bad, and I can save half that per year now. 7200/year rent, 1800/year car insurance, 1000/year phone. 10k right there. Then I spend 10k on food, entertainment, gas, recreation, gym membership, etc. for a year and be fairly comfortable at this time in my life.

Growing up, parents, everyone around me, seemed like they were living pay to pay, so I greatly value having a cushion of $ built up / rainy day fund.

Can't afford the 50k suv, 80k truck, and 600k house that seemingly everyone around me can, but I don't care for those things. I don't care for a lot of materialistic things, actually. And I think in that right there I can be content, and focus on the finer things in life to make me happy, and not being tied down. It's all about mindset, and what you've grown up with, etc too.

And then there's health, the things you're capable of doing, and realizing that others may have it a lot worse, and I shouldn't take anything for granted.


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## Koogie (Dec 15, 2014)

Funnily enough, it was reaching a certain net worth target that made me feel content versus an income level. DW and I have always spent just around the same amount of money every year for the last twenty years (give or take a few lumpy years with one off expenses). Ironically, it is about 75K or so.

When I was in my early twenties, DW and I both worked and made about 75K between us. We spent most of it and saved maybe 10%. 
In my late twenties I had gotten to the Jr. VP level in my industry and started making six figures and DW quit her job. We still spent about the same and saved a greater portion. 
In my early thirties I started my own company and paid myself only just enough to pay the bills and banked the rest. Income was only something to support our regular lifestyle.
Then in my late thirties I achieved what I considered my F.U. net worth. I didn't need to work anymore if I didn't want to and I didn't have to take guff from anyone (customers or vendors or employees) That was when I really started feeling content. I slowed the business down, fired a lot of customers and started removing stress from my life (which had been very high for about 10 years).
Now I'm in my mid forties and still paying myself about the same amount every year. I have doubled the F.U. money amount though. I slowed down the business yet again and now only work 3 days a week and take a lot of vacation.

TL/DR: financial independence makes me more content than a high salary ever could.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

^ this. I started to become more content when I stop comparing and basing my self worth on net worth. Growing up in a family with much older siblings, who were financially extremely successful (Think top 0.1% or better) I find my self not measuring up. This was a self imposed image as my family doesn’t rub anything in. Though, I was doing well above my per group in income, net worth, and career, I felt crappy every time we would do extended family things becuase my older siblings were so generous and wealthy. I felt that I was the ‘charity’ case. In order for me to be content, I figured I would need a seven figure salary.

My spouse finally called me out and said, what are you willing to do and give up for that income? Was I willing to make the choices that other did. My famil6 has very much like Just A Guys view, that money can be made from anywhere, but you have to figure out how, and it might not be easy at first. My spouse asked if we really needed that kind of money to be happy? Of course the answer is no, so then what was causing my unhappiness just at these times with my family whom 8 get along with. It really wasn’t money but what the money represented. 

I have come to the understanding that money is just tool that allows you choices. It allows you to buy away some stressful situations, like missing flights, finding care for your aging parents, etc. I think if you can be content wephne you have a low or high income. Contentness comes from being able spending less that you make and appreciating what you have and knowing what you truly value that brings you joy. 

In terms of when will did I stop worry about money, well, when my kids leave the home is when I foresee myself trul6 being secure. However, in terms of a when did I stop worrying, when we paid off our mortgage, and knew we could live off of one income when push comes to shove (when my spouse gets laid off or is contractless), and we had enough savings and investments to last us at least two years without working if we had too. So it had little to do with income more to do with our stages in life.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

https://youtu.be/WPMq7m1Ra-U


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## OutofBounds (Dec 7, 2016)

Work:Life:Money ratio comes into play here in my opinion. I average $4200 - $5000 per month take home, after tax dollars. However, I work 50 - 60 hours a week on average to get that. I'm happier bringing home $4000 per month after deductions and working 40 hour weeks. 

For me, $5000 per month take home is very comfortable. That means I can put 50% - 60% into savings/investments, pay my bills and have a very healthy chunk leftover for entertainment. However, I don't like working the hours it takes me to make that. I accept a smaller entertainment budget and 45 - 50% savings rate in order to work fewer hours and spend time on what is important. 

When it all comes down to it, work is not important. Work gets in the way of life. Work is a complete and total waste of time. I'm 28 and I could happily never work another day in my life if I could afford it. I work to make the money I need to enjoy my life outside of work. $4000 - $5000 per month after tax seems to be my happy place.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Abii said:


> Basically I want to hear from people that are now in their 30's, 40's, 50's and hopefully 60's. Do you agree with what I said? If yes, what is that income range that you would be comfortable with.


I _started_ becoming happy when I was making 38k (in today's dollars) -- at that level I was able to do everything I wanted, including travel. I became even happier as my income exceeded 75k.

However there is a mental trap here of assuming that gross income is the biggest factor, when in fact it's relatively minor compared to others parts of the equation, notably living expenses, location, dwelling situation, _freedom_, etc.

Some of the people who fall into that mental trap end up with very high incomes, and yet still live paycheque to paycheque, have no freedom in life, and possibly can't even save any money. I work with some people like this.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> +1^ Pretty much my story except I started in 1971 at about $630/month in the nuclear power industry...


In 1967, I was hired for $625 with a premium for a Masters in Process Control. It seemed like a lot because my Dad only made $460 when he retired in 65. LBYM was part of my DNA. By 1973, I was up to $2500 and never looked back. Aside from a year in 1981 when I had $500k in debt, I was always happy with the money. After that year, I vowed to never carry debt so I worked hard to pay off the mortgage. Aside from some investing margin, and revolving credit, I have been out of debt.

I did develop an empathy for those in debt though. But it does not take much to make me happy. Both DW and I have an aversion to stuff. We had our moments but that has passed.


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## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

I'm definitely not content with my current income level. Part of it, is that I'm spoiled by certain luxuries in life, such as having a dependable vehicle, and going on vacations. 

But life is expensive these days, in a different thread, I was just posting about ~34% of my income (mix of before and after tax) goes to just filling the RRSP, TFSA & RESP room for my family. 

I want to move to a better community, and a better house, but I can't do it at my current income level without cutting out basically all of the luxuries I've grown accustomed to over the past couple of decades... 

I don't necessarily think more money would make me happier, but it would definitely help my life.

edit: I also want to note that in threads like this it seems like people treat individual single people and entire families as almost being the same thing. I'd be able to live a life of luxury at my current salary if I was just supporting myself, however with a family of 4 it's a very different situation.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Not sure if we're talking single person or family or family income...

I'd say around 90K is where I felt content. Family income above maybe 150K. It's a time thing too. The first year you make that much might still seem like a stretch with a new mortgage, kids, etc, but several years at that amount and you're fully in control. With that comes predictive power. If you are truly in control, then you can predict where you will be in 5, 10 years with pretty good accuracy. Having a goal and an expectation of what future life would be leads to higher levels of contentment and security.

Something else happened around age 35 where, in addition to being content, I also became confident that regardless what might happen (bankruptcy, etc), I would be able to get back on my feet and thrive within a short period of time.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

CalgaryPotato said:


> edit: I also want to note that in threads like this it seems like people treat individual single people and entire families as almost being the same thing. I'd be able to live a life of luxury at my current salary if I was just supporting myself, however with a family of 4 it's a very different situation.


Indeed, many posts are incomplete because they don't qualify it in terms of family or where they are on life's continuim. Thus don't take much of what is written in terms of $$ amount as meaningful. I'd suggest you are doing very well to fill all that RRSP/TFSA/RESP room. 

There is light at the end of the tunnel and if you have to back off a bit in your RRSP contributions, for example, for a few years to 'take off some pressure', then do so. It is important to enjoy a few luxuries in life along the way. A good, if inexpensive, vacation at a rental cabin/chalet is needed to re-charge batteries, and a good used* vehicle takes off pressure.

* I used to buy 3 year old vehicles in my 20's-40's, but never base level ones. I'd buy ones with optional extras so that I could 'enjoy the ride'.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

^^+1


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## Earl (Apr 5, 2016)

Abii said:


> Sorry about the vague title.
> 
> A while ago I saw THIS article from Huff. Post. It's a US study and it claims that at around the 75k mark, you won't become any happier as you make more money. I tend to agree with the article/"study," but I'd like to hear some personal experiences.


That's a US article and things are a LOT cheaper in the US. I was just looking through Black Friday flyers for various US stores like Walmart, Best Buy, Home Depot, etc and comparing the deals with the flyers for Walmart Canada and Best Buy Canada and HD Canada and the differences are astounding. Everything from clothes to TVs to snow blowers is ridiculously more expensive in Canada. I make more than 75k USD but I am sure I would have a higher standard of living and would be able to afford a lot more stuff if I made 75k in the US than what I make here in Canada.

I think there is an income level at which you start being content and making more won't make you much happier, but that level is a lot higher than 75k in Canada. Maybe about 200k? I don't know, I don't make that much yet. I know if I made an extra 25k over what I make now I'd be a lot happier.


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## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

Earl said:


> I think there is an income level at which you start being content and making more won't make you much happier, but that level is a lot higher than 75k in Canada. Maybe about 200k?


That's a heck of a lot of unhappy people in Canada.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Earl said:


> I make more than 75k USD but I am sure I would have a higher standard of living and would be able to afford a lot more stuff if I made 75k in the US than what I make here in Canada.


A friend moved from Mississauga to Dallas and he commented that his standard of living increased significantly.


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## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

canada sucks


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## GPM (Jan 23, 2015)

Canada is Fantastic. Spent some time in the third world and there is no place like here. Only 1st world problems. Anyhow, I think the level is dependent on what life style you are comfortable with. I grew up very lower middle class and felt I had a good youth. Now I'm likely upper middle class and quite happy. Going up in wage is easy but going back down is hard. I was happy with my wage when I could max my RRSP, RESP, and TFSA, buy a term 100 Life insurance policy for taxes and a guaranteed inheritance for my kids, and put down enough money yearly to pay off my house. However, I see a house as a place to live and a car as a car. Big houses don't impress me any more than small ones and BMW's are the new belly button car. Sold the Z3 I foolishly bought in my youth and kept about 1 year, to buy a used mini van when I had kids. Happier in the minivan, as I didn't care about scratches. So I would say $75,000 gross is the tipping point and anything else is just gravy - Bigger houses, fancier cars, and higher priced vacations. A happiness index I recently read said that this is exactly the case. The money pressure is gone at this wage (excluding Victoria, Vancouver and Toronto now days). The problem with too much money is people trying to take advantage of you. The big thing is comparing yourself to others. More money can always be spent, so a person keeping up with the Jones' will never have enough money to be content.


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## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

GPM said:


> Canada is Fantastic. Spent some time in the third world and there is no place like here. Only 1st world problems. Anyhow, I think the level is dependent on what life style you are comfortable with. I grew up very lower middle class and felt I had a good youth. Now I'm likely upper middle class and quite happy. Going up in wage is easy but going back down is hard. I was happy with my wage when I could max my RRSP, RESP, and TFSA, buy a term 100 Life insurance policy for taxes and a guaranteed inheritance for my kids, and put down enough money yearly to pay off my house. However, I see a house as a place to live and a car as a car. Big houses don't impress me any more than small ones and BMW's are the new belly button car. Sold the Z3 I foolishly bought in my youth and kept about 1 year, to buy a used mini van when I had kids. Happier in the minivan, as I didn't care about scratches. So I would say $75,000 gross is the tipping point and anything else is just gravy - Bigger houses, fancier cars, and higher priced vacations. A happiness index I recently read said that this is exactly the case. The money pressure is gone at this wage (excluding Victoria, Vancouver and Toronto now days). The problem with too much money is people trying to take advantage of you. The big thing is comparing yourself to others. More money can always be spent, so a person keeping up with the Jones' will never have enough money to be content.


how old are you sir?


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## OutofBounds (Dec 7, 2016)

kcowan said:


> A friend moved from Mississauga to Dallas and he commented that his standard of living increased significantly.


I've had 2 friends move to the US after marrying American girls. One to Washington state, the other to California. Neither of them have any desire to ever move back to Canada. Both of them say their standard of living is significantly higher, and their options in general with regards to life, work, entertainment, resources and earning potential blow Canada away. 



redsgomarching said:


> canada sucks


I used to be a red and white maple syrup bleeding patriot. These days, I find myself trying to figure out a way to move to the US. Figure that one out...


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## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

OutofBounds said:


> I've had 2 friends move to the US after marrying American girls. One to Washington state, the other to California. Neither of them have any desire to ever move back to Canada. Both of them say their standard of living is significantly higher, and their options in general with regards to life, work, entertainment, resources and earning potential blow Canada away.
> 
> 
> 
> I used to be a red and white maple syrup bleeding patriot. These days, I find myself trying to figure out a way to move to the US. Figure that one out...


the opportunities in the US are literally limitless due to their sheer population size.

canada is only good to those who are mid 40s/50s nearing the end of their careers.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Boy you guys are negative on Canada. Having worked in the US for about 4 years now I can say that life is better in Canada, overall.

Notional incomes seem high in the US, especially in fields that currently draw many people to the US (technology) but these are in centers like Seattle & silicon valley, where the cost of living is so high that it completely wipes out any actual benefit of those jobs. American taxes can also be very high, especially in California. Some US companies also only give partial health care, which means you can be on the hook for extra health costs.

The norm in America is fewer vacation days, substantially less by my count. Basic benefits are poorer -- where I live for example, if you're fired, the employer does NOT have to pay you out for unused vacation days, *nor are you eligible for unemployment insurance.* You'll also be healthcare-less, and will start having to pay about $400/month out of your own pocket so that you have some health care. _American workers are literally slaves to their employers, especially if they have children or health problems._

My coworkers who've had children get ONE WEEK off from work. After that it all becomes unpaid time off.

And for those of us in professionals areas, the liability risk is tremendous. There are rampant lawsuits in the US and it's a dangerous environment for doctors, lawyers, etc.

Overall my sense is that life in Canada is better. Taxes are quite low in BC, AB, even ON.


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## GPM (Jan 23, 2015)

redsgomarchingin I am just about 50. I am a "Wealthy Barber" kid from back in the days when their was no TFSA's and RRSP's were maxed at $13,500 for years. 

Abii, I agree with you about the study - pretty accurate as all bills are paid - food, clothing and shelter. I worried as well when I was younger about an adequate salary and net worth. I stopped. For one, I come from a family that has seen its hardships, from the depression with grandparents farming, grandparents dying far too early, and multiple debilitating diseases with some ending in permanent disability. Stuff happens, there are set backs, and you deal with them and recover or survive. There is no sense worrying about it. Planning for set backs can help, but only if affordable. That being said, we are taken care of from Welfare and Canada Pension Plan Disability, to Medicare and CPP/OAS/GIS. I know this is a money forum to build wealth (which is why I joined), but although crappy, this is borderline living as a fall back position. Life could be a lot worse than on Canada's social programs.

Calgary potato, if you are saving 33-34 percent of your income and are young, you are laughing all the way to the bank. Money never changes. If you start young 10% savings is generally all that is needed for retirement. This from "The Richest Man In Babylon" written in the 30's. I believe the same is true today. In my opinion, as a possibly older member, the key for you is to decide what you want to do in _retirement and when you want to retire._ Get a proper financial plan done by a _fee for service advisor_ that follows your spending habit/goals as well as investments/cashflow from now until 85 and work backwards. I think you will find your savings rate will be more than adequate. There is a lot of pressure to earn income and invest from the media. Many over invest for retirement if starting early. Also, a good education is a luxury not a right. You may want to check out the "RESP How Much Is Enough Thread." (There are even calculators if you google it). Interestingly, there are members refusing to give a free ride to their kids and paying only half their education as a life lesson. There may be many ways like this to free up cash in the present and enjoy the finer things while you are young. Saving everything for retirement and dying before you enjoy it would be a pity. i am old enough to have seen this. Life is a balance. 

As far as the USA goes you can have it. You couldn't pay me to move, even if the standard of living is higher. The lack of medicare alone would have impoverished half my siblings. I would only consider nordic countries, likely Norway if I was making a change. Australia might fit the bill, but I would have to research it. 

I agree with all the previous posters, who have shown happiness is state of mind, or an amount of money where you feel you are "safe." Those fellows were not making the big bucks. They were content. I am always astonished by the stress in Canada about financial security when the happiest people are all from third world countries. The Philippines held the position forever, but I believe they were replaced by Nicaragua. I have never met happier people than Philippino or Indian Immigrants. It is their kids that seem flourish in our society.

For all the fellows that bought second hand cars, that is what most American millionaires have done. David Chilton,the Wealthy Barber, still lives in his 1200 foot bungalow and spends his money on experiences. He shows wealth can be measured and used in different ways. Warren Buffet still lives in his $400,000 house he bought when he was young and his daughter has to make him buy new cars when she is embarrassed. 

Kudos to those who decide they have enough and cut back on work. The two greatest pieces of advice given to me as a youth were "do something you enjoy because you will be doing it for 45 years," and "no one on there death bed ever says they wish they worked more."

Anyhow my two cents, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't *love* to be rich. It may not bring happiness but I would give it a try!


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## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

GPM said:


> Calgary potato, if you are saving 33-34 percent of your income and are young, you are laughing all the way to the bank. Money never changes. If you start young 10% savings is generally all that is needed for retirement. This from "The Richest Man In Babylon" written in the 30's. I believe the same is true today. In my opinion, as a possibly older member, the key for you is to decide what you want to do in _retirement and when you want to retire._ Get a proper financial plan done by a _fee for service advisor_ that follows your spending habit/goals as well as investments/cashflow from now until 85 and work backwards. I think you will find your savings rate will be more than adequate. There is a lot of pressure to earn income and invest from the media. Many over invest for retirement if starting early. Also, a good education is a luxury not a right. You may want to check out the "RESP How Much Is Enough Thread." (There are even calculators if you google it). Interestingly, there are members refusing to give a free ride to their kids and paying only half their education as a life lesson. There may be many ways like this to free up cash in the present and enjoy the finer things while you are young. Saving everything for retirement and dying before you enjoy it would be a pity. i am old enough to have seen this. Life is a balance.


I strongly agree, if you look at my post history I'm always commenting about finding a balance. In fact I don't feel like I fit in on this forum sometimes with ultra-frugals.

And I live a comfortable life... but I'm still not content even though I know I should be with a 6 figure salary...


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

CalgaryPotato said:


> I strongly agree, if you look at my post history I'm always commenting about finding a balance. In fact I don't feel like I fit in on this forum sometimes with ultra-frugals.
> 
> And I live a comfortable life... *but I'm still not content even though I know I should be with a 6 figure salary*...


Pshh, screw that! _"They"_ want you to feel comfortable, satisfied, and lucky with a (presumably low) 6 figure salary. That expectation of being paid "well enough" among the majority will keep salaries down while you become an expert in your field in your 30s and 40 and bring millions/year of value to your company while being paid ~150k if you're lucky. Always push for more.


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## tdiddy (Jan 7, 2015)

james4beach said:


> Boy you guys are negative on Canada. Having worked in the US for about 4 years now I can say that life is better in Canada, overall.
> 
> Notional incomes seem high in the US, especially in fields that currently draw many people to the US (technology) but these are in centers like Seattle & silicon valley, where the cost of living is so high that it completely wipes out any actual benefit of those jobs. American taxes can also be very high, especially in California. Some US companies also only give partial health care, which means you can be on the hook for extra health costs.
> 
> ...


You kinda had me until taxes are low in ON? Agree strongly regarding liability, however in legal profession I think salaries more than make up for it. 

The other big issue is purchasing power. Outside of healthcare, a decent upper middle class life costs a fair bit less in USA vs Canada from my anecdotal experience (ie cars, flights, electronics, cell phone, groceries, gas, etc)


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I had 4 different assignments as an ex-pat in the USA. I agree that for the upper middle class (over $100k), the USA has much to offer with great purchasing power. The major downside would be health care costs if one had gotten used to an employer sponsored health plan.

It would be much harder for the lower middle class as there are virtually no social safety nets, virtually no day care support, etc. etc. I would not want to be someone earning <$50k in the USA.


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## GPM (Jan 23, 2015)

Well, calgary potato, I feel the same. I do not fit in this forum at all. I came here for investing advice and received it, mostly via private email - excellent advice, both for me and some wealthy colleagues-from the members who know who they are. I’m not a money ho, do not chase wealth, and found my life balance years before life kicked me in the nuts health wise. I have an excellent and comprehensive financial plan to prevent any worry. Therefore, I haven’t posted in many years. I started again, regarding real estate, and feel overall that it was a mistake. However, I saw your dilemma and thought I might give you my take on life. Your response shows you already have a handle on things. As far as chasing higher salaries, and being told people are trying to hold you back, I strongly disagree. The most “successful” person I went to school with (Saskatchewan) ended up being the pacific head of phizer. She then joined the company of the pharmaceuticals czar that recently went to jail over raising one drug by ludicrous percentages. She appeared before congress with him. She is rich, single and looks like she’s 70. Quite something for the best looking girl I ever met as a youth. Chasing money can steal your soul. Anyhow, lots of great people on here with great ideas, for small investors just learning to very experienced businessmen if you really want to get ahead. I respect all their views and advice, and the fact that money is their passion and they are sharing their knowledge for free. Likely one of my last posts and going back to checking in occasionally. Good luck in your life pursuits!


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Overall my sense is that life in Canada is better. *Taxes are quite low in BC*, AB, even ON.


I'll go easy on you since I'm pretty sure you're from Ontario. When you just look at income tax levels, it's easy to get the impression that taxes are low in BC. The reality is a whole different story, of course.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

tdiddy said:


> The other big issue is purchasing power. Outside of healthcare, a decent upper middle class life costs a fair bit less in USA vs Canada from my anecdotal experience (ie cars, flights, electronics, cell phone, groceries, gas, etc)


Here is a statistical comparison of COL: GTA vs Dallas and the key number is 48% less purchasing power
Toronto vs Dallas


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## tdiddy (Jan 7, 2015)

re: purchasing power. that is even worse than I thought.

in terms of the initial question. Interesting thoughts, rather than just give James a hard time i'll add my personal 2 cents. when I was training I had a certain income in mind that I would be content with. Now I am exceeding it. My lifestyle has matched the income I was expecting, the rest is going to savings. I feel with the political climate and uncertainties a drive to, within my professional/ethical/moral obligations, work as hard as I can and earn as much as possible while I am in my 30s. Perhaps it is growing cyanism with age, getting a better sense of what my occupation is really like and how long I'd like to work or just financial anxiety; but it is certainly not something i saw coming about myself.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Dallas is not exactly representative of a fair comparison, i.e. not a lot of people necessarily aspire* to work and live in Texas. But the whole mid-section of the USA is a low COL region. The East and West coasts are just the opposite. As always, it depends.

* I lived and worked in Houston for almost 4 years COL is very low there and people who are lucky enough to have good careers/jobs do very well. The masses did not appear to be any better off than anywhere else.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

I agree with AR. Average folks in the US don't seem any better off than most Canadians and in many cases not as well off.
COL is one factor but you have to take wages into account as well and I find these vary more wildly un the US.
In Canada there are some regional differences between what teachers and cops make that somewhat reflect cost of living.
In the US the difference in salaries for like jobs can be extreme. In many areas, police and teachers would make about 1/2 what they would in Canada. Yet some (FBI) make more than Canada.
Income disparaty is broader in the US. We tend to hear the success stories - the software engineers at Google etc but if you eliminate the top 5 or so software companies the wages are significantly less.


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## amitdi (May 31, 2012)

$78K


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## Italicum (Feb 10, 2017)

I have been a regular reader on this forum for several years and have learnt much from the experience and knowledge of many contributors here. I enjoy the generally respectful and moderate tone with which opinions and views are expressed (as exemplified by the posts of people like James4beach and MOA). Being a regular reader of other financial fora from my home country in Europe I don't take this for granted. I have posted only very sporadically here but would like to add my voice in this thread. 

First a side note on the Canada vs US debate: I declined several lucrative opportunities in the US during the .com boom (I work in IT/IM) and before the ensuing bust in the early 2000s. I consider Canada to be a much safer, fair, sane and tolerant place to live in for me and my children. The economic vibrancy of the US with all its opportunities (for some) does not compensate for its poorer karma. Like GPM, while I respect the choices other people make, I felt and feel that I would not want to live there.

The question here is what level of income is sufficient to bring a sense of contentment. I have been making 6 figures for over 25years and feel I live a very comfortable life, while supporting my children. I also have reasonable confidence that i will have a financially secure retirement (provided I get there), while also leaving a substantial legacy to them. So, I have been content with my salary (billings in fact, since I am self-employed). However, contentment is only partially, at best, related to income levels , like other have already stated above. While some money to secure the basic necessities for my children and I is certainly of importance, I believe true happiness is fundamentally not conditioned by income levels over and above those needed to pay for those necessities. In fact, and this is the point I would like to underscore here, the pursuit of a larger paycheque can, if not kept in check, go directly counter to true and long-lasting contentment. This is since the two driving forces at play while seeking personal financial growth are more often than not greed and fear (yes, our 'objectives' may be a comfortable life, a secure retirement, etc. but our financial decisions are often dictated by that pair). Greed and fear (a.k.a., in financial matters, attachment to money and avoidance of the risk of money losses) happen to be two of the three 'poisons' that create unhappiness and suffering. I suggest we are best served by being very watchful of these forces in our daily life and by trying to lessen their grip and power over us.


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## mcoursd2006 (May 22, 2012)

I haven't read the actual article in OP, but I've read something similar. That $75000 isn't some arbitrary figure. It's the amount that takes care of all the basic needs of housing, food, clothing, as well as some of the lower-level needs like children's programs, vacation, and some leftover for saving/investing. For most people this is the case, and for most people it's difficult to consider yourself to be 'content' if you are constantly struggling to pay rent, feed your family, forgoing vacations, etc.

Think Maslow's hierarchy of needs.


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

AltaRed said:


> Dallas is not exactly representative of a fair comparison, i.e. not a lot of people necessarily aspire* to work and live in Texas. But the whole mid-section of the USA is a low COL region. The East and West coasts are just the opposite. As always, it depends.
> 
> * I lived and worked in Houston for almost 4 years COL is very low there and people who are lucky enough to have good careers/jobs do very well. The masses did not appear to be any better off than anywhere else.


During this past hurricane season, many reporters in Florida were talking about how many local residents can't even afford the tank of gas to get out town. Yet outsiders think Florida is all like Miami with mega mansions and exotic cars.

Along with the overt racist tone lately, crazy gun culture, bigger spending on military and prisons than healthcare and education, and incredibly large gap between the have and have not, I really don't see how anyone would prefer the US to Canada. Just because I can make more money at another country, it doesn't mean that country is better for living or raising a family.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Actually, I am quite aware the vast bulk of West coast and East coast residents do not live the American dream. Lived in Washington DC for 2 years and been to Florida enough times to know that income and net worth disparity is wider than almost anyone can imagine. I was thinking more in relative terms been the Coasts and the mid-section (housing prices for example). The Trump era is just making it worse.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

mcoursd2006 said:


> I haven't read the actual article in OP, but I've read something similar. That $75000 isn't some arbitrary figure. It's the amount that takes care of all the basic needs of housing, food, clothing, as well as some of the lower-level needs like children's programs, vacation, and some leftover for saving/investing. For most people this is the case, and for most people it's difficult to consider yourself to be 'content' if you are constantly struggling to pay rent, feed your family, forgoing vacations, etc.
> 
> Think Maslow's hierarchy of needs.


I wonder how much of the vacation thing is due to so-called "hedonistic adaptation". I doubt our ancestors took many vacations. Of course, there was no real concept of a middle class before the 20th century... just rich, poor, and slightly-less-poor. Travel was usually done out of necessity rather than leisure.

At some point during the 20th century, we experienced the rise of the middle class, and with it the "annual vacation" became a mark of pride and success. The family trip to Disneyland... next year, Europe... and so on.

Of course, nowadays, one vacation a year is nothing... you need to get away at least three times a year -- preferably every few months -- or else you're not living, not having "experiences" you can post about on social media. If you are having more "experiences" than the rest of your friends/neighbours/etc, then you're definitely more content than they are... right?


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## mcoursd2006 (May 22, 2012)

Sure. We don't live in isolation. We have friends and family, and not all of them espouse the same values that we do. I'm okay with not having the latest and greatest gadgets, cars, or annual vacations, but I know that when your friends are driving new cars every few years, taking multiple vacations a year, and have that giant OLED tv in their entertainment room, it's hard to not think about how great it would be to be them. The question is, are they more content than you are? 

There have been studies that show high net-worth individuals have the same anxieties/worries that the rest of us do. They think about their investments, where their money is going. The difference there being an extra zero or two in all their numbers.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

mcoursd2006 said:


> They think about their investments, where their money is going. The difference there being an extra zero or two in all their numbers.


In my personal experience, the difference is that they are used to outsourcing various services, including investments. But they are also diligent about getting value for their money.


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## Koogie (Dec 15, 2014)

nathan79 said:


> Of course, nowadays, one vacation a year is nothing... you need to get away at least three times a year -- preferably every few months -- or else you're not living, not having "experiences" you can post about on social media. If you are having more "experiences" than the rest of your friends/neighbours/etc, then you're definitely more content than they are... right?


I find that a lot now too. It's like the upper middle classes (or those who ape them on credit) have moved on from granite countertops or wine cellars and now compete on travel "experiences"

"Oh, you haven't been to Outer Bumfuckistan ? You simply must go. We go every year. You have to have the goat at Raouls. Tell him Mitzy says hi"


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## Dilbert (Nov 20, 2016)

Koogie said:


> "Oh, you haven't been to Outer Bumfuckistan ? You simply must go. We go every year. You have to have the goat at Raouls. Tell him Mitzy says hi"


LMAO! Hilarious, thanks for making my day.


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## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

MY gf insists our combined take home pay should be atleast 200k gross. While we are pretty much at that she is earning more.

I have some work to do to take some stress off her.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I probably started becoming more comfortable in my early 30s when I reached $100k in invested assets and my income was secure; I found a good paying job. 

That was a huge milestone for me after paying off student loan debt in my early 20s and blowing WAY too much money in bars...

I'm still anxious about our mortgage debt, it bothers me a bit but it's going down every two weeks so that is making me feel more comfortable with time.

Even if my income goes down in the coming years I believe I'll be very happy when I'm debt-free. Once saving for retirement and debt payments are gone I suspect some major money stressors will be gone.


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## mcoursd2006 (May 22, 2012)

To answer the question in OP, for me it wasn't so much the income level but the level of debt that I had. Once I paid off the mortgage on our home I would say that I felt very relieved to have ride ourselves this debt, and our 'contentment' level rose proportionately. We lived well within our means prior to this point and have continued to do so despite the extra disposable income. Being debt free let us indulge in/focus on other pursuits such as health and wellness, self-improvement, helping others, etc.


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