# how to consume less



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

The concept of consuming less seems really lost on most people these days. I suspect my frugal nature has a lot to do with my upbringing, including a mother who urged placing my weekly earnings in a boring bank account rather than buying candy and toys at the local corner store. I hated it at the time but those lessons are still with me today. 

I really think a lot of the problems we have these days are attributed to consumers who have no discipline when it comes to shiny new items that come on the market. These days it seems, people see, people want, people buy. No one wants to wait and no one wants to do without.

So, let's make a concerted effort to save our money (like the guy from ING Direct says). Please post your examples of how you do this in your daily life. I'll get us started.

Grocery bags. Yes, I use plastic bags because I need plastic bags for household garbage. But I NEVER buy them nor do I buy those stupid cloth ones for $1 each that are barely big enough for more than milk and bread and need to be replaced after a couple spills. I shop at stores like Giant Tiger that supply good, free bags. After I get home the bags see a couple of re-uses.

-kitty litter
-garbage bags for those small apartment size cans
-a dozen or so go in the back of the car for next trip to a store which charges for bags. After returning from shopping at said store, the bags are then reused as covered herein.

What are your examples of consuming less in an era where consuming more seems to be the peer-pressure that prevails?


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> nor do I buy those stupid cloth ones for $1 each that are barely big enough for more than milk and bread and need to be replaced after a couple spills.


We've been using the same cloth bags for five or six years now; if you get a spill you just put it in the wash! But the real heroes in our bag collection are the mesh-net "filet" bags -- they stow easily in a coat pocket and can carry an incredible amount of stuff and we've never broken one yet. I can carry a 6-pack of beer, a couple of liters of milk or orange juice, and some veggies and bread in one net bag.

We also use reusable containers wherever possible: there are a few shops that sell laundry soap, dishwashing soap, etc. in bulk, and we reuse the same containers over and over again.

We take a lot of effort to ensure that when we need to get rid of something, we do so responsibly (either donating it, recycling it, etc.), so this means whenever we buy something new we have to consider how much hassle it will be to dispose of it. That and our general (but not too strictly followed) rule of "get rid of one thing for every new thing you buy" helps put a brake on our purchases.

We also have a small house and are dead-set on keeping it uncluttered. We like the spare, simple look, and clutter tends to stress both of us out. 

We keep a limited amount of bookshelf space. If we want to buy a new book and there's no room on the bookshelf, an existing book must go. I try selling books on Amazon; if that doesn't work and I can't donate them anywhere, I take them to the recycling center.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

My wife spends some effort looking for food sales to save a bit.

I think for us that most of our money savings comes not from what we do to save money, but from what we don't do - we don't eat out much, we don't buy much "stuff", we would love to get some work done on our house but we haven't done it etc etc.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I organize clothing swaps with friends and acquaintances. Recently we've been talking about a "thing" swap (think small appliances) and a book swap. We did our first book swap this past Saturday.

Also, I haven't had cable for more than 10 years now. I still get TVO though.


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

I think if people really want to save money, they need to track their spending via spreadsheet, writing it down etc. Even though we are frugal, we have a bad tendency to just pop by the grocery store often as it's close to our house. As a result, it's one of our biggest expenses which could be reduced with some planning.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

FrugalTrader said:


> I think if people really want to save money, they need to track their spending via spreadsheet, writing it down etc. Even though we are frugal, we have a bad tendency to just pop by the grocery store often as it's close to our house. As a result, it's one of our biggest expenses which could be reduced with some planning.


Really, as long as individual food purchases are reasonable and you don't waste much food (let it spoil in your fridge, etc.) I don't see the harm in frequently going to the grocery store. I used to live in a rural area where the nearest grocery store was 20 minutes away, so when I moved to a neighbourhood with a grocery store on the corner I was spoiled by the ability to pick up more fresh food on more or less a whim.


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## rookie (Mar 19, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> My wife spends some effort looking for food sales to save a bit.
> 
> I think for us that most of our money savings comes not from what we do to save money, but from what we don't do - we don't eat out much, we don't buy much "stuff", we would love to get some work done on our house but we haven't done it etc etc.





FrugalTrader said:


> I think if people really want to save money, they need to track their spending via spreadsheet, writing it down etc. Even though we are frugal, we have a bad tendency to just pop by the grocery store often as it's close to our house. As a result, it's one of our biggest expenses which could be reduced with some planning.


i think the OP is interested in finding out what steps we take to "consume less", not to "spend less" or save money.

i think a good measure of how much we consume is how much we dispose. as for ourselves, we bought a box of garbage bags when we bought our home 4 years ago and we still havent run out of that. there has never been a time where we had more than one garbage/recycle or green bag by our curb. i am amazed at seeing my neighbours' garbage disposals - half our family size but twice the dump!!! how do we do it? we hardly buy packaged food, bottled water etc or for that matter even frozen food. we too recycle shopping bags to garbage bags even though they do not "look good" on the curb. donate clothing. extensively use library for our kids. we are not crazy about gadgets. wife and me even carpool. we have only one ride even if we can easily afford 2. live close to work. so a full tank of gas lasts for over a week for us!! shop groceries on the way to work/home. hmm cant think of anything more in particular. i guess we just lead a simple lifestyle.


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## Taxsaver (Jun 7, 2009)

rookie said:


> i think the OP is interested in finding out what steps we take to "consume less", not to "spend less" or save money.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Great responses everyone!

rookie brings up a great point. Indeed, what's in your garbage can is very telling. And no, I'm not talking about debit receipts and old phone bills lol. I'm talking about the empty containers that fill your recycle bin and what's in the trash. You can see if the person is overconsuming by the volume and type of trash they have.

Another trick is to use rewriteable DVDs and CDs rather than the one time use ones. It's amazing the uses you can find for these discs when you use the RW versions. No need to keep buying new discs. Reuse same ones, consume less.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Another trick is to use rewriteable DVDs and CDs rather than the one time use ones.


And actually if you're using CDs and DVDs to store data as opposed to music or movies, you can just use a flash drive. I use a 64 gig flash drive for backups; it holds as much as 16 DVDs. 

One word of warning on rewriteable DVDs and CDs: they tend to corrupt faster and don't have as long a shelf life as one-time use ones. I remember David Pogue of the NY Times did an article on that a few years ago; he pulled out some CDs he burned in 2000 and 2001 and about half of them were no longer readable. Most of those that were not readable were CD-RW.


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## Doug Out West (Apr 25, 2010)

On the grocery bag thing. Never pay for them as use bins which makes for faster loading and unloading of car. Plus with a lid they can be stacked so can buy more at a time. Don't use grocery bags for under sink garbage use full size garbage bag. At end of week take it out and go around the house to small cans and use extra volume then. 

Do use grocery or any other bags for dog poop. Have 3 dogs so go through lots of bags that way.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Ok here's a hint. 

This works really well for me. I avoid "shopping places" malls, stores, gadget shops. 

I also do not watch TV commercials. 

This makes it easier to save money.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Another thing to consider is to shift more of your expenditures from posessions to experiences. Possessions come and go, but your experiences and memories stay with you for life.

A few years ago I had some extra room in my music budget (I fund my spending on music with income I make from performing and teaching), and I was contemplating getting a new iPod. But instead, I decided to buy front-row seats at the opera for myself and my girlfriend. Neither of us had ever been to the opera before; I always disliked listening to opera singing and had no desire to go, but my girlfriend had brought up the idea several times so I bought the tickets as a birthday present. It was an incredible experience for both of us -- seeing an opera performed live is nothing like listening to it on a recording -- and one we will never forget. I am really, really glad I didn't spend that money on an iPod.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Like Berubeland, I also avoid Shopping Mauls. I buy most of my groceries within walking distance of my house which (I think) helps keep impulse buys at bay. Rather than buy a second vehicle, both my husband and I bicycle to and from work (I drop my daughter off at daycare along the way - she LOVES going to school in the bike seat.... and her fellow daycare kids are actually jealous she gets to ride in a bike! heheehe) so that saves us from buying an additional vehicle and it saves us from consuming as much gasoline as we would if we were to drive everywhere.

I use cloth bags, love them more than plastic because they can hold heavier things and not break (and are better for attaching to my bike).

Since my daughter only needs play clothes for daycare and one or two "pretty" outfits for parties, church, etc I tend to get most of my clothes free (second hand) from friends as hand me downs.

I try and repair something if I can, with my limited repair skills rather than buy something new.

About a year ago I read a blog of a couple who did a zero-waste/purchase nothing but food blog for a year and had no garbage (maybe recycling, not sure about that) so when their can opener broke, they had to fix it rather than buy a new one.


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## rookie (Mar 19, 2010)

Addy said:


> About a year ago I read a blog of a couple who did a zero-waste/purchase nothing but food blog for a year and had no garbage (maybe recycling, not sure about that) so when their can opener broke, they had to fix it rather than buy a new one.


its funny you should mention this. back in where i come from, we fix and fix and fix and fix till the things are pretty much dead. once they are dead, we revive, resuscitate them and then fix and fix and fix and fix and reuse. this is simply because of affordability though. when i first went to the US, we were living in our company apartment where the plug for the rice cooker broke. we informed the caretaker hoping he would be able to get it fixed and mind you we were shocked, not surprised, when he just brought us a new one in the evening.

i just remembered another way/thing to consume less. TISSUE. i should mention again that i was shocked when i saw so much tissue being used left right and centre!!! a box of bounty from costco lasts us over 2 years. we prefer to use the cloth in the kitchen so we can wash and reuse.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> The concept of consuming less seems really lost on most people these days.
> 
> I really think a lot of the problems we have these days are attributed to consumers who have no discipline when it comes to shiny new items that come on the market. These days it seems, people see, people want, people buy. No one wants to wait and no one wants to do without.
> 
> What are your examples of consuming less in an era where consuming more seems to be the peer-pressure that prevails?


I try to consume less by doing my research before buying things and properly maintaining/fixing things myself.

I find that any professional now-a-days will not intice you to maintain/fix anything properly if you don't know better yourself but rather just replace everything when it wears out early.

I don't know how you can expect people to consume less in this day and age when every corporation is constantly scheming up ways to make them consume and replace as much as possible. The only way to change consumerism is to regulate businesses more.

A lot of times people can even burn more energy and resources when they think they're being green. High-efficiency appliances are a big trend now a days but no one considers how long that appliance will last




> i should mention again that i was shocked when i saw so much tissue being used left right and centre!!! a box of bounty from costco lasts us over 2 years. we prefer to use the cloth in the kitchen so we can wash and reuse.


I also rarely buy paper towel. There was however an interesting video on TED and the introduction claimed you burn more energy washing the cloth


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> I don't know how you can expect people to consume less in this day and age when every corporation is constantly scheming up ways to make them consume and replace as much as possible. The only way to change consumerism is to regulate businesses more.


We have the ability to control when and how often we open our wallets. I don't buy the idea that we are helpless victims of corporate marketing.



mode3sour said:


> A lot of times people can even burn more energy and resources when they think they're being green. High-efficiency appliances are a big trend now a days but no one considers how long that appliance will last.


Actually a long time in most cases. I've been using an ENERGY STAR fridge and an ENERGY STAR front-loading washing machine for about 10 years now with zero problems; I wouldn't be surprised if they last another 10 years longer without any problems, though I might replace them before that if the efficiency gains of newer equipment are substantial enough.



mode3sour said:


> There was however an interesting video on TED and the introduction claimed you burn more energy washing the cloth


http://www.ted.com/talks/catherine_mohr_builds_green.html

I think this might be the one you're referring to -- fun to watch, eye-opening, and only about 5 minutes.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> The only way to change consumerism is to regulate businesses more.


What what? This little libertarian-leaning lady says "no." 

As for the wash cotton towels versus use and throw out paper towels, you have to be careful what assumptions you are using. I cloth-diapered my two kids (60 consecutive months) using handed-down cloth diapers (not ONE purchased new) and a high-efficiency (low-water) washing machine, line-drying most days. I'm pretty confident that I used less energy doing this. 

/steps off high horse


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Yea it's funny how people immediately think being free and liberal means letting businesses do whatever they want with as few regulations as possible. I think we've hit the other end of the spectrum now

You definitely used less energy with cloth diapers I imagine, but I think a lot of times people don't look at the whole picture as that TED video shows (thanks for the link)

Lets all go buy an electric car now I'm sure Sudbury has enough nickel to power a billion cars and I'm sure we have enough coal power plants to recharge them all


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## travelgeek (Nov 29, 2009)

brad said:


> Possessions come and go, but your experiences and memories stay with you for life.


Ain't this the truth. I spend a lot on travel and I have many good memories of those rather than the payments on the car or other material goods. Now I live in a small place, I drive my car until it's into the ground, and use an ancient cell phone, for example, just to be able to spend more on experiences.


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## travelgeek (Nov 29, 2009)

Here's an article that was posted on a travel blog that I follow regarding the Cost of Owning Things:

http://almostfearless.com/2008/06/02/the-10-unexpected-costs-of-owning-things

Some of the points mentioned has helped me spend less on material goods.


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

um, we have a garden, which is pesticide free. those organic pesticide veggies scare me...

my god, you city people are funny...


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## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

*become a vegetarian*

Veg diet will be cheaper and healthier, so you be happier, live longer and have more money. 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iUnd51QjNbWrFXazB42Qth9oK53Q


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

I cut my own hair.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

brad said:


> Another thing to consider is to shift more of your expenditures from posessions to experiences. Possessions come and go, but your experiences and memories stay with you for life.


I agree wholeheartedly, that is why I love to travel & consider this money well invested & spent! 

In general, I'm a saver, not a spender & consider myself a conscious & educated consumer. I also avoid wasting & just don't find the need to jump into the latest gizmo (just the latest fashion, lol). Blame excess consumption on advertising & marketing I suppose, but the fact of the matter is that it's just not easy to escape when everything around us is constantly changing faster than ever before, however, as you also said, we control our wallets!. 

We live in a highly consumeristic society & I think sometimes our goals in life get screwed up a bit & need reminders of what is really important in life. 

To save more, should we give the 2009 Product of the Year a chance - the MagiJack.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> To save more, should we give the 2009 Product of the Year a chance - the MagiJack.


Why do you need to buy a usb device to plug in an analog phone just to use voip? Just get a DID for $1.50/month and use a headset

Yes we control our wallets but unless you can DIY everything, you are affected by the consumerism guaranteed.

It annoys me that now-a-days it's far more efficient to do everything yourself when society should be more efficient when we rely on each other!

We all spend our money differently. Traveling the the last way I'd spend mine but that's because I travel all the time for work. When you think about it in the context of this thread though it is a huge waste of jet fuel just to go somewhere for fun


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## Taxsaver (Jun 7, 2009)

Sherlock said:


> I cut my own hair.


Me too! It costs me $20 with tip and taxes in Toronto each month. On 10 years that's $1,200.

I'm saving big from July 1 transfering from an apartment ($900) to a room ($300). Add to that that I'm not paying for internet service anymore, that is $38,000. I understand the drawbacks of a room, but I'm ready to suffer now to celebrate later. 

Last July I sold my car and have been using my bike ever since. That's a saving of $18,000 on five years. Sometimes I miss my car, but it's for a good cause.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

@mode3sour: You have valid points, however, travelling for me is not only fun, but also educational (I'm not talking about beaches), so I'm addicted to it and only a jet will take me to places across the ocean. 

@Taxsaver: good luck with your 5 year savings plan, remember time flies when you're having fun, so hang-in there!


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## Taxsaver (Jun 7, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> @mode3sour: You have valid points, however, travelling for me is not only fun, but also educational (I'm not talking about beaches), so I'm addicted to it and only a jet will take me to places across the ocean.
> 
> @Taxsaver: good luck with your 5 year savings plan, remember time flies when you're having fun, so hang-in there!


Well, downgrading to a room is not like going to jail. Watching my RRSP and TSFA growing rapidly will help me go through it. Heck, my room does not have a window! lol. It will give me an excuse to stay out and meet people. You see, I'm the biggest home person you will ever meet and enjoy being alone. Nobody bothers me and I don't bother anybody.


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## Taxsaver (Jun 7, 2009)

You never know, I may as well go ahead and buy a condo when I have the 20% downpayment amount.


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> Why do you need to buy a usb device to plug in an analog phone just to use voip? Just get a DID for $1.50/month and use a headset
> 
> Yes we control our wallets but unless you can DIY everything, you are affected by the consumerism guaranteed.
> 
> ...


What's a DID?


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

bean438 said:


> What's a DID?


I didn't know myself, so I googled it.

http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/view/DID+Service+Providers

@Taxsaver: I admire you, but don't forget to live a little too!


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Just to bump this back on track... this thread is about consuming less, not about saving money (although consuming less hopefully would save you money).


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

That's right. I think the confusion stems from the way things are marketed. They tell you you can save $x by buying this and that. No! You save by consuming and thus buying less.

I can see the buyers of the new apple device are oblivious to the concept of consuming less.

Consuming less means you keep your wallet in your pocket and do not succumb everytime a newer, better product is released. News flash: there will always be a new, better product. Even if you buy it today, tomorrow's will be better. Get out of the hamster wheel, save your money and consume less.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm not a fan of Apple's restrictions but I don't agree Apple users consume more. Apple hasn't changed their laptop design in years and they refuse to add the latest fades just to trick people into upgrading. While other laptop companies are churning out new fades and gimmicks year by year. If you compare the specs, Apple doesn't even use the latest and greatest

So if you always say I'm not going to buy today if tomorrow's will be better I guess you never ever buy? With Apple it's easy to time the right time to buy something because they put out far less models and variants.

Someone who bought a Macbook or iPhone 3 years ago is probably not tempted to buy a new one that looks Exactly the same. Most 3 year old cell phones and laptops look ancient by now


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

I rather own the stock!


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> I'm not a fan of Apple's restrictions but I don't agree Apple users consume more. Apple hasn't changed their laptop design in years and they refuse to add the latest fades just to trick people into upgrading.


You __are__ kidding, right?
Apple is right up there when it comes to fads, gimmicks and "planned obsolescence".
Whether they are the worst or not is a matter of opinion.
Some would say Micro$oft is the worst - we can argue about that until the cows come home, but the fact they are all up there.
This is a _big_ problem in the society these days, and each generation seems to get worse when it comes to consuming.
There is always a new phone model, a new MP3 player, etc.
The analogy of a hamster on a spinning wheel is very appropriate.
It appears that to sustain our modern consumerism driven capitalism we need to keep producing and selling all these toys and gimmicks.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

could not agree more w harold crump & others who decry revolving consumerism of electronic products.

recently i've become involved in communications for a firm carrying out licensed environmental disposal of e-waste. The situation is horrifying. The environmentally-correct procedures are complex, costly, and consume an enormous amount of energy because they involve considerable crushing & trans-shipment of rendered component particles.

new laws have been passed, or are about to be passed, everywhere in canada that prevent consumers from dumping their e-waste into the garbage stream. As a first step, this is a good idea. Citizens will then have to pay for private haulage. How to require citizens to hire licensed enviro-safe haulage and not donate their toxic e-waste to dealers who are selling illegally to China is a gigantic problem. Another looming problem is that the new e-waste laws will probably result in computers, phones, tvs and microwave ovens being junked into neglected lots or onto unsuspecting open land in the countryside.

all you people who are salivating over the latest apps, won't you please begin to consider the permanence of your used mercury, lead, tungsten, titanium and toxic non-recyclable plastics in our good earth when you junk yesterday's toy ...

and yes, the plastic casings housing electronic units contain a lethal fire-resistant chemical that makes the casings impossible to recycle ...


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

What a great couple of posts by harold and humble.

Yes, the e-waste thing is very scary. I've seen what that does to the environment in thailand and china and other countries with no environmental laws and it's a crime. All that mercury and lead ends up in their water supply. The fish and people are taking it in.

And don't forget about the plastic garbage patch out in the ocean.

The saddest part of all is that people do not see the connection between this and their insistence on having cell phones, ipods, ipads and a million other electronic devices. When I see the environmental damage this is causing it really turns me off this stuff. How can tech consumers turn such a blind eye to the catastrophe they are causing?


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Just one note in Apple's defense: their computers are made of recyclable aluminum and they have made great strides in reducing or eliminating toxic components -- here's the environmental statement for their current line of notebooks:

http://www.apple.com/ca/macbookpro/environment.html

The iMac:

http://www.apple.com/ca/imac/environment.html

and the Mac Mini:

http://www.apple.com/ca/macmini/environment.html

The iPod and iPad aren't as green, but I imagine they're working on improving in that area.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> You __are__ kidding, right?
> Apple is right up there when it comes to fads, gimmicks and "planned obsolescence".
> Whether they are the worst or not is a matter of opinion.
> Some would say Micro$oft is the worst - we can argue about that until the cows come home, but the fact they are all up there.


Oh Microsoft the software company? They do all the planned obsolescence of electronic hardware? I suppose all those keyboards and webcams they put their name on (I doubt they make them) Or did you mean all the Xboxes that break? (Microsoft lost a lot of money there so I doubt it's intentional) 



HaroldCrump said:


> This is a _big_ problem in the society these days, and each generation seems to get worse when it comes to consuming.
> There is always a new phone model, a new MP3 player, etc.
> The analogy of a hamster on a spinning wheel is very appropriate.
> It appears that to sustain our modern consumerism driven capitalism we need to keep producing and selling all these toys and gimmicks.


I agree with you fully. When I think of what all the junk is I imagine all those cheap routers that burn out, cheap plastic printers, cheap PC's, all the MP3 player models that were plastic 128mb etc. There was a bazillion models of random brand name crap over the years. I can still see people using the old aluminum iPods, but alas, the crappy battery probably rendered them garbage.

I'm thinking about throwing out my old Linksys router, it served me well for about 5 years and then it didn't seem to work as good. I've never thrown out a computer I buy solid cases and just upgrade parts as needed. Even the few parts I took out I find a use for them. I know how to prolong the battery life of electric razors, iPods etc so I haven't even thrown one of those out

Basically I research stuff before I buy. Even that old Linksys WRT54g router was carefully researched. I buy the rare electronic products that I think I can make last. Apples I think are pretty easy to make last because they are made of very few moving parts and aluminum (I bought my iPhone used by the way). There are also other electronics that can last but you will not find them in a big box store

One of my latest purchases was my first home theater receiver (talk about planned obsolescence) I researched it to death and the new ones are much cheaper built than the old. An interesting thing I found was the big box stores carry their own model numbers that have the same specs as another model they don't sell that is heavier and built of stronger parts

I'll never buy any electronic from a big box store


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

mode3 says:

_" ... I've never thrown out a computer I buy solid cases and just upgrade parts as needed. Even the few parts I took out I find a use for them."_

hey that's great.

wish everyone would learn to do the same. You're ahead of the times. Casings & CRT screens are the most dangerous & difficult components to dispose of environmentally. Ground up, their particles have to be shipped long distances to specialized processors who can separate the molecules ...

the enviro recyclers say that high net-worth communities throw away mountains of complete iphones, laptops & comps that are in perfect working order, only one or two years old.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Yeah, where are all those early digital cameras now, 1-4MP models? 

I too try and get the most use out of my stuff as well. Last printer was 12 years old, current desktop PC is 7 years old still works, swapped out the CD burner for a DVD burner, got external hard drive, upgraded the RAM, replaced the last monitor when it burned out 5 years ago. Still using an old Sony CRT. Microwave in the kitchen, TV, VCR are also 12 years old. Have gone through two DVD players already. The old stuff went to local e-waste depot last year but as humble says that's only the beginning.

Socially, if you don't have all this up to date stuff you sort of become a bit of an outcast in our society. Young professionals without laptops and cell phones, oh the humanity.

And I see we've killed off 20 beautiful sea turtles in the us gulf.

Humans are the worst custodians of this planet.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> Oh Microsoft the software company? They do all the planned obsolescence of electronic hardware?


Yes, same company but I wasn't thinking specifically of hardware products, but of software as well.
When it comes to the topic of "consume less", I believe it should apply to everything - whether a 5 Kg. desktop computer or a software CD weighting < 1 lb.
Micro$oft is notorious for releasing new versions of its products and decommisioning the support for the previous version.
And it is progressively getting worse every year.
Until a few years ago, they would have a new version of Office every 3 years or so and the older versions would continue to be supported for many more years.
But now there is a new version every few months and they do not hesitate to pull the plug on older versions.
That means no support, no updates, no patches.
Regardless of whether an older product continues to meet your needs/requirements, you still gotta upgrade because it is out of support.

The dept. I work for supports hardware and applications for the business units (not just Micro$oft but Oracle, IBM, etc.) and we are tired and fed-up of upgrading our softwares every few months to keep up with Micro$oft and Oracle's software upgrade schedules.
Often the newer versions are not compatible with older versions and break the custom applications our company has built.
Now we gotta spend our time and money to make the fixes.
A typical fix cycle takes weeks - from re-design of infrastructure to testing to deployment, etc.
The amount of waste (both physical waste as well as time/$$) is simply mind boggling.
And I know for a fact that public sector/govt. departments that use the same systems and have similar complexity (or higher) have to go through the same upgrade process.
And guess whose hard-earned money they are spending....

In my personal life, I am a big believer in making my things last longer.
I am fond of the things I own, I take care of them, protect them from damage, clean/maintain them regularly and make them last.
Sure, at a certain point, when the maintenance gets too much or the product is no longer effective/efficient in its purpose, you gotta replace it, but the rate of replacement of our society is ridicolous.
Electronics and cars are perhaps the worst.
A cell phone in the hands of a teenager seldom lasts more than 1 year (I'm being liberal here) and a lot of adults I know wanna drive a new car every 3 years.
Not to mention things like TV sets, furniture and other household items.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Yeah, where are all those early digital cameras now, 1-4MP models?


I got rid of my 2.1 megapixel Canon PowerShot S110 just last year, and I only did so because it stopped working and couldn't be repaired. I took it to a recycling center but who knows what they did with it. That little thing took fantastic-quality pictures, much better than the overpriced 6MP Panasonic with a Leica lens that I bought for my girlfriend a few years ago.

The smaller megapixel-count cameras were better suited for their tiny sensors; thank goodness the megapixel-count race seems to be ending.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

harold says:

_" ... I am fond of the things I own, I take care of them, protect them from damage, clean/maintain them regularly and make them last."_

hey that's great, too.

sometimes i go a step further. Whenever i inherit or come to possess a 2nd hand item, i stop to honour the person who passed it on to me, although often i have no idea who they are or were. I thank them for the positive energy that caused them to choose the object in the first place, and for their care in making sure that other human beings would benefit when their leasehold was up. If i think they're no longer alive, like my grandparents and one of my aunts, then i try to offer a tiny blessing to their spirits.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

brad said:


> I got rid of my 2.1 megapixel Canon PowerShot S110 just last year, and I only did so because it stopped working and couldn't be repaired.
> 
> The smaller megapixel-count cameras were better suited for their tiny sensors; thank goodness the megapixel-count race seems to be ending.


Haha I had an old Powershot too! When I bought it, I chose it because it was perfectly rectangle with no crappy plastic pieces sticking out and it was far heavier and solid than the rest

I carried it through years of army training/deserts/jungles in its leather case in a zip lock bag. I even had a motorcycle accident with it in my pocket

I got it in 2002 and I handed it off to my parents a year ago and it still works like new. The pictures are still huge who cares about mega pixels


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Yes, same company but I wasn't thinking specifically of hardware products, but of software as well.
> When it comes to the topic of "consume less", I believe it should apply to everything - whether a 5 Kg. desktop computer or a software CD weighting < 1 lb.


Yea we need a cd-less movement like the paperless trend. I get a cd with every device when I could have downloaded it, besides the instructions no one reads (hmm Apple is the only company I know who doesn't provide useless cds and paper instructions)

Upgrading Microsoft software at least doesn't cause all the landfill waste.



HaroldCrump said:


> And I know for a fact that public sector/govt. departments that use the same systems and have similar complexity (or higher) have to go through the same upgrade process.
> And guess whose hard-earned money they are spending....


Yea I work in public sector, there is a lot of waste like this. It frustrates me how inefficient our society is and people have no clue. People at my work wonder why we're still using Microsoft 2000, and their new versions from home won't open

I consume less myself to save money, but I don't feel it's helping the world one bit as long as the private sector has free reins


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> Yea we need a cd-less movement like the paperless trend. I get a cd with every device when I could have downloaded it, besides the instructions no one reads (hmm Apple is the only company I know who doesn't provide useless cds and paper instructions)


I actually ran into a problem with this a few years ago when I downloaded MS Office 2007 onto a Windows Vista machine that I subsequently downgraded to Windows XP (because we still use XP at work and Vista was incompatible with our VPN client). I had no physical copy of Office, and I couldn't reinstall a downloaded copy because I had neglected to write down the product key before I wiped the hard drive and installed the new operating system. So I had to purchase Office all over again for $600; I spent many hours on the phone with Microsoft explaining my situation and wrote letters to no avail. In the end I lost my $600. So with Microsoft, at least, I make sure I have physical media.

As for paper instructions, I actually miss havng software manuals and am a big fan of the Missing Manuals series started by David Pogue. I really like having a manual that I can refer to while I'm using the software, and on-screen help is often too cumbersome to use at the same time that I'm using the program. Onscreeen help would be more workable if I had two monitors, but then I'd need to buy another monitor and a bigger desk so I'd have room for two monitors, and I'd spend more on electricity to run two monitors, and on and on.... ;-) It's funny how one purchase leads to another.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

brad said:


> I actually ran into a problem with this a few years ago when I downloaded MS Office 2007 onto a Windows Vista machine that I subsequently downgraded to Windows XP (because we still use XP at work and Vista was incompatible with our VPN client). I had no physical copy of Office, and I couldn't reinstall a downloaded copy because I had neglected to write down the product key before I wiped the hard drive and installed the new operating system. So I had to purchase Office all over again for $600; I spent many hours on the phone with Microsoft explaining my situation and wrote letters to no avail. In the end I lost my $600.
> .......
> It's funny how one purchase leads to another.


That's exactly what I'm talking about.
Oh there's a new version of this, but wait...this doesn't work with that and if you have that version of this, and that version of that, then you gotta have that other version of this...blah blah blah....

What a collosal waste.
A lot of this is designed to keep more and more people at Micro$oft, Oracle, IBM or whatever employed, their marketing and sales guys working overtime and so on.
I guess it's the old adage of "supply creates its own demand" at play here.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> A lot of this is designed to keep more and more people at Micro$oft, Oracle, IBM or whatever employed, their marketing and sales guys working overtime and so on.


I think with Microsoft some of it is also due to the issue of pirating; they have lost millions if not billions of dollars in revenue due to pirating, so they have created multiple layers of verification/activation to prevent people from stealing their stuff. This is what nailed me: I wrote down the serial number of Office 2007 when I downloaded it for my Vista machine, but I didn't realize that the serial number wouldn't allow me to re-download and install the software at a later date -- for that I needed the product activation key. Without that key, you're out of luck. Lesson learned, but at $600 it was a very expensive lesson.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

While I obviously am 100% behind the concept of consuming less, I am with brad on this one. Need physical media for important software such as OS and office as well as expensive apps. Not everyone has high speed internet to be able to download huge software files and in the event of a crash the physical media is all you have, especially with a lot of downloads being one pay, one download.

My way of consuming less when it comes to CDs and DVDs is to use RW ones. I see people at work buying packs of 50 one time use DVDs and most of those end up in the garbage, never to decompose. At least by me getting 10+ reuses out of an RW disc, I am consuming that fewer # of discs. Yes, some of my RWs have gone bad but only after using them several times. And you can help matters by using a very slow burn rate.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

*"Ditching a $500,000 salary to teach lit'* -Talk about consuming less.

Nice story, in case you missed it, here it is:
http://money.cnn.com/2010/04/29/pf/second_act_buslik.moneymag/


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> *"Ditching a $500,000 salary to teach lit'* -Talk about consuming less.
> 
> Nice story, in case you missed it, here it is:
> http://money.cnn.com/2010/04/29/pf/second_act_buslik.moneymag/


Well, the guy sold his business for "several million bucks," so he probably doesn't really have to work for a living anymore, even after the divorce settlement. Still, walking away from $500K/year is pretty impressive.

I took a 50% paycut once to jump ship for a job that was more aligned with my passions, and would do it again for the right job. But it gets harder the more encumbered you are with debts and responsibilities. Now that I have a mortgage to pay I'm a lot less open to the idea of taking a big paycut.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> My way of consuming less when it comes to CDs and DVDs is to use RW ones. I see people at work buying packs of 50 one time use DVDs and most of those end up in the garbage, never to decompose. At least by me getting 10+ reuses out of an RW disc, I am consuming that fewer # of discs. Yes, some of my RWs have gone bad but only after using them several times. And you can help matters by using a very slow burn rate.


I don't think I've burnt a CD since the 90's! I use virtual drives

I wish they would stop putting these huge bulky noisy CD drives in laptops. You realize a flash drive can hold more, faster, and works far more than 10 times!

My friend just bought a laptop and guess what, no cd came with it! I guess I'm getting my wish, cds will go the way of the floppy

Another idea to consume less, get them to stop dumping a huge pile of flyers at your door every week... what a waste! I just look at flyers online. It annoys me that half the time they still give me flyers and newspapers when I have a sticker that I don't want them


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> Another idea to consume less, get them to stop dumping a huge pile of flyers at your door every week... what a waste! I just look at flyers online. It annoys me that half the time they still give me flyers and newspapers when I have a sticker that I don't want them


Argh my current apartment building is horrible for that, several times a week I get a huge package of paper. There are no recycling bins around the building either so it all goes in the garbage.


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## canabiz (Apr 4, 2009)

The iPad is supposedly coming to Canada tomorrow and I have heard huge lineups are to be expected outside the Apple store, Best Buy and Future Shop.

It's not a cheap device (not after factoring in data plan) and call me a technophobe but I still fail to see how a regular Joe *needs* to have this item, outside of what we already have i.e. laptops, iPhone, netbooks.

I will let the hype die down and buy one next year, if I do decide to buy one.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

*you don't need to buy every new portable electronic device!*



canabiz said:


> The iPad is supposedly coming to Canada tomorrow and I have heard huge lineups are to be expected outside the Apple store, Best Buy and Future Shop.
> 
> It's not a cheap device (not after factoring in data plan) and call me a technophobe but I still fail to see how a regular Joe *needs* to have this item, outside of what we already have i.e. laptops, iPhone, netbooks.
> 
> I will let the hype die down and buy one next year, if I do decide to buy one.


Funny you should say this, as I was thinking the same thing. How many EXISTING devices will people throw away as a result of this new release? And, how many existing devices ended up in the landfill when they bought those devices, only 2-3 years ago?

People don't seem to understand that when you get out of the hamster wheel, is when you stop buying this crap.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> Funny you should say this, as I was thinking the same thing. How many EXISTING devices will people throw away as a result of this new release? And, how many existing devices ended up in the landfill when they bought those devices, only 2-3 years ago?
> 
> People don't seem to understand that when you get out of the hamster wheel, is when you stop buying this crap.



Agreed! The only problem I have with this is that devices are made so cheaply now (as in shitty quality) they end up breaking down. We've returned two laptops to Costco mainly because they were so cheaply built it was a big turn off for us. We're considering a mac now because we've heard they last longer and, although I haven't verified this, Apple tends to built their hardware to be recycled.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Addy said:


> We're considering a mac now because we've heard they last longer and, although I haven't verified this, Apple tends to built their hardware to be recycled.


It's true that Apple builds their newest computers (the aluminum models) to be easily recycled, but a lot of other manufacturers are doing this as well.

I like Apple, but I wouldn't say their stuff lasts longer: every Mac I've owned since 1987 has developed hardware problems (or came with them out of the box); I think they have a QA problem at the factory. That said, my current MacBook Pro hasn't had any problems yet and it's about three years old, plus I'm still running a circa 2004 PowerBook as our television and it's in fine shape.

If you want to find computers that are designed to be easily recycled, look for the EPEAT Gold rating -- it's not like Energy Star, they don't carry a label, but most manufacturers will flag EPEAT Gold computers on their website so you can spot them.

Or you can go to EPEAT's site and review the list:

http://www.epeat.net/

Note, however that just because something's made to be recycled doesn't really help address the nightmarish computer recycling industry, which exposes many thousands of poverty-level workers in developing countries to toxins and other dangers.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

canabiz said:


> The iPad is supposedly coming to Canada tomorrow and I have heard huge lineups are to be expected outside the Apple store, Best Buy and Future Shop.
> 
> It's not a cheap device (not after factoring in data plan) and call me a technophobe but I still fail to see how a regular Joe *needs* to have this item, outside of what we already have i.e. laptops, iPhone, netbooks.
> 
> I will let the hype die down and buy one next year, if I do decide to buy one.


To each his/her own.
The iPad for you and me is just another piece of electronic junk meant to keep us hooked onto the products of a particular company and make that company rich (seems to be working - they are now the #1 software products company).

However, for some people, these products bring happiness.
So why not?
Going on a southern vacation brings me happiness and costs more than what the iPad costs.

That said, I have decided to start making cuts in my household and consumer goods purchases as a response to the HST.
I figure if I can cut back about 5% out of my household spending, that'll keep the total retail tax paid to the govt. about the same after 1st Jul.
I can't change the HST so my response is to consume less.
I figure there's enough wastage in there that I can eliminate 5% without noticing any impact on standard of life and quality of core products we buy (like food).

There is opportunity cost to this as well.
I figure we'll be spending more time browsing through the weekly flyers looking for deals, cutting coupons, browsing the Internet for coupons, etc.
So the 5% savings has a time cost associated to it, but hopefully over time we can cut close to 10% to justify the time investment.

I am yet to be convinced that the HST is anything more than a tax grab on the part of the ONT govt. so my response is to reduce consumption and keep net tax paid the same.
The nice side effect being less consumer junk.


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## canabiz (Apr 4, 2009)

One of my co-worker brought an iPad into the office today and I had a chance to play around for a bit.

Long story short, neat device but it does not currently fit my needs. He paid close to a grand for it (top model) and factoring in the data plan, I am amazed how some of the younger folks can afford this device. Suffice to say, we could use this amount for something else but like Harold say, to each his own.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

First off I haven't used nor plan to buy the iPad anytime soon

But I get this attitude from a lot of people about my iPhone. I'm just following a trend etc and wasting money

The funny thing is these same people pay for landlines, cable tv, video games, gps/CAA/maps, news papers/magazines, cameras etc etc etc

For me, the iPhone filled a huge gap of all the things I deprived myself of to save money. I consider it a way to consume less and still have eveything



The question is, are all the things that data plan replaces worth paying for anymore?..


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## canabiz (Apr 4, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> First off I haven't used nor plan to buy the iPad anytime soon
> 
> But I get this attitude from a lot of people about my iPhone. I'm just following a trend etc and wasting money
> 
> ...


I created a thread on this very topic a few months ago, mode

http://www.canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php?t=757&highlight=canabiz

The opinions are clearly divided which is good because what works for me may not work for you and vice versa. At the end of the day, I have no choice but to look after our little family's finances and clearly define my needs vs. wants. At the moment, I do not need the iPad nor the iPhone and that's all there is to it.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

That thread is from a year ago. A lot has changed since then and smartphones will continue to be less restrictive

My bill is $31.xx total per month for 500mb data-only and I tag on an extra $5 for roaming when I travel


You might as well hold off as long as you can but I would consider a smartphone more of a "basic need" than a lot of things like TV (I've never owned a TV myself)

I would compare not buying a smartphone in the near-future to not buying a TV in the 80's or a PC in the 90's. Everyone's gonna have one


As far as the iPad type device. For someone with a family, I would rather buy a device like that than buy extra computers. It certainly consumes less electronic material and you can use it in more places





> Going on a southern vacation brings me happiness and costs more than what the iPad costs.


Everyone is talking about how bad these electrical gadgets are for the environment, but no one considers how much jet fuel is burned to travel for fun?


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## canabiz (Apr 4, 2009)

Until Canada has more competition for the smartphones and the price is as affordable as possible (good to see Windmobile and other new players in the market), i refuse to buy one just because it's cool or it's useful.

Come to think of it, what do people do before the iPhones/smarphones? Heck what do people do before PCs ? I would rather have my kids out and about on the playground or going to a real museum or zoo instead of watching it on their smartphones or gaming consoles, but that's just me.

I do not need a smartphone for my personal use nor for my work and I am happy where I am at. I respect your decision to have one, especially if it helps you become more productive, both personally and professionally and I think you can respect mine not to have one. 

As far as travel goes, there is another thread discussing the pros and cons of that, I think you will also find opinions on both sides. Again to each his own.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

canabiz said:


> Come to think of it, what do people do before the iPhones/smarphones? Heck what do people do before PCs ? I would rather have my kids out and about on the playground or going to a real museum or zoo instead of watching it on their smartphones or gaming consoles, but that's just me.


Seeing as this thread is about consuming less, when PCs came out I was trying to convince my high school staff how much paper we could save with them and how much more we could learn and they just couldn't seem to see it coming

And trust me having an iPhone lets me experience the outdoors far more. I'm not tied to my desk anymore. It saves a lot of time because I am productive when waiting in lines so I have More Time to go outside too. Screw museums and zoos, how about going out to see real authentic nature with gps, 911, and even the ability to answer emails if needed. Geo caching would be a great start for a family, and its free

Seems some people are just stuck in the past?

Technology is great and consumes less, it's just a shame that technology is driven purely by marketing interests now a days, which makes it consume more


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## canabiz (Apr 4, 2009)

mode, you don't have to keep justifying your purchases and usage of the iPhone/iPad and their various features. We get it. Like i said earlier, different strokes for different folks. You can't never satisfy everybody. Just do what you feel is right for you and your family and that's all it matters.

I don't want to hijack this thread into another debate about the pros and cons of these new gadgets and I will be glad to move on and I hope you are as well.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I was actually trying to steer your posts back on topic, but alas

Buying gadgets doesn't mean you're consuming more

Why do they still print and deliver so many damn phone books a year? Do people still use those? It takes a fraction of the time to use the internet

Same thing for all the publications at work. The printed versions always have to be amended physically when everyone prefers to search the PDF anyways


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> I was actually trying to steer your posts back on topic, but alas
> 
> Buying gadgets doesn't mean you're consuming more


I wholeheartedly disagree. The whole point is that gadgets DO make you consume more. You're buying them! That means you are consuming them. This thread is about consuming LESS, something the tech junkies just don't get. For them, if it's invented, they're rack up the CC debt to have it. Then a few months later they'll be here telling us about their plan to mop up the floor, without committing to stop the leak.

Don't cave to social pressure. Not everything that's newer is better and not everything that's electronic is better. I use my phone books all the time when I don't want to have my every keystroke logged by spyware and have my screen blasted with advertising. With the phone book I calmly flip to the correct page, look up the listing and get the number.

There's way too much focus on advertising and tracking your every move these days, so they can charge you more or tax you. It's that driving force that really has me turned off a lot of this stuff. That plus the environmental catastrophe that results every time some new over-hyped gadget hits the market.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

We could be far more efficient and waste less if that's what technology was being developed for.

It's being developed to maximize profit in a capitalist society, which actually slows technology down

All your issues come from marketing not technology. A disciplined person can use technology to consume less


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## canabiz (Apr 4, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> We could be far more efficient and waste less if that's what technology was being developed for.
> 
> It's being developed to maximize profit in a capitalist society, which actually slows technology down
> 
> All your issues come from marketing not technology. *A disciplined person* can use technology to consume less


For every disciplined person, there are twice as many undisciplined ones. Someone who wants the latest toys without any regards for their own financial and environmental impact.

What you said in theory may be true but we all know that's not what transpires in reality. 

Canada ranks first in terms of debt-to-financial assets ratio among 20 OECD countries

Read more: http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=3013137#ixzz0pMORyQgs

Do the people who line up to buy the iPads care about this? Probably not. Should they ? I (and you too I hope) think so.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Even the line ups are a marketing ploy

I'm well aware people are buying gadgets they don't need.

Most people are sheep and they follow leadership, which in our society is marketing. I don't think it's because everybody is stupid, most people just naturally follow the flow

So technology is only good in theory? _Right.._

Yes it takes a disciplined person to consume less in this society, but the society does not have to be this way at all


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## canabiz (Apr 4, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> Even the line ups are a marketing ploy
> 
> I'm well aware people are buying gadgets they don't need.
> 
> ...


This has nothing to do with technology, mode. What I meant is you sound like it's so easy for anyone to buy all the latest gadgets/toys and still stay disciplined on their financial track. I beg to differ. I have seen first hand how the need to cave in social pressure or to follow the sheep, as you alluded to, have destroyed people financially, emotionally and physically. For everyone person like you who is committed enough to make this worthwhile, there are, sadly, others, who got lost in a vicious circle of consumerism. 

Keeping up with the Joneses is never easy but you know what, you have a choice and that is you don't have to do so. It's not about staying in the past, it is about making the most rational and sound financial decisions for you and your immediate family.

I rest my case.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I'll try one last time to get 2 points through

1. Advanced technology is more efficient and consumes less

2. Consumerism is a society built around replacing things as much as possible

Stop confusing the two


I don't care how much you and I resist to replace things in a consumerist society; you would consume far less in a society that didn't design everything to be replaced asap


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> Don't cave to social pressure. Not everything that's newer is better and not everything that's electronic is better. I use my phone books all the time when I don't want to have my every keystroke logged by spyware and have my screen blasted with advertising. With the phone book I calmly flip to the correct page, look up the listing and get the number.


Yellow pages announced no more delivery of phone books. About time



> The sooner baby boomers improve their computer literacy, the quicker phone books will join rotary dial phones in museums.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Keep feeding the advertising machine that tracks your every mouse click. Not me. My privacy is important to me. No one runs a report and blasts my computer with advertising when I flip through the hard copy yellow pages.

Just because something is on a technology platform, doesn't make it right. People don't seem able/willing to see that.


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