# US social security / CPP Totalization clarifications



## mungbeans (Mar 14, 2012)

Hello.

I'm wondering how the Totalization agreement will apply to my situation when I retire. My info is:

Joint Canadian and UK citizen
Have only five years working within Canada, and thus 5 years contributions to CPP
Have over 10 years working within the US and meet the 40 credit US Social Security contribution threshold
Undecided but will probably retire in Canada
(Unrelated to the Totalization agreement but also have 15 years working contributions to the UK government pension scheme).

It's my understanding that as a Canadian citizen I can receive US SS payments anywhere in the world (with a couple of exceptions such as N Korea or Cuba)?

But how does the US/Canadian Totalization agreement affect, if at all, me? Will I just receive US SS and CPP independently of each other, or do contributions made to one affect the payments received from the other?


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

Could you please explain what "40 credit US Social Security contribution threshold" means?
I'm in a rather, multi-country, situation like you (9 years CPP/QPP contributions in Canada, and 7 years Social Security contributions in the US. Currently in the US, but not sure what the future may reserve - retiring in Canada, US, or even Europe.

Thanks.


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## mungbeans (Mar 14, 2012)

It just means I am eligible to qualify for US SS benefits.

For US SS you must have accumulated 40 contribution credits, If you're working full time and fully contributing during that time then you get 4 credits per year. I've worked/contributed in the US for 10 years, thus I have 10 * 4 contribution credits.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

I did know from a close relative of mine, about this requirement to work full-time in the U.S. for at least 10 years, in order to be eligible for US SS / retirement benefits. Now you have explained it more clearly.

Thanks so much for the info.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Do the stats listed for working in the US and Canada mean that's what you will have when you retire?

If so, this discussion seems to be saying in the second example that the US credits can be added to the Canadian credits to potentially qualify for OAS where based solely on Canadian credits, one would not. Though with ten years US and five years Canada, I believe you'd need another five years Canadian residence to meet the minimum twenty years for OAS, should you decide to move out of Canada.








Understanding the Canada-U.S. Totalization Agreement - Cardinal Point Wealth Management


Many Canadians and Americans face the reality of a career that spans both sides of the 49th parallel. Amidst an era of globalization, it is common for promotions to create cross border opportunities and for company restructurings to force a long-term cross border move.




cardinalpointwealth.com





US Info





International Programs - Totalization Agreement with Canada


This page provides information on how to avoid dual U.S. and Canadian Social Security taxes, as well as how to apply for benefits under the U.S. social security agreement with Canada.



www.ssa.gov





Canadian Info





United-States - Pensions and Benefits - Canada.ca


Pensions and Benefits




www.canada.ca





A more general article ... How international social security agreements affect CPP and OAS eligibility


Cheers

*PS*
Sadly, if I am reading it right, it seems that the Canada - UK agreement is about avoiding double contributions by employee & employer where it can't be used to assist with qualifying for benefits.






United-Kingdom - Pensions and Benefits - Canada.ca


Pensions and Benefits




www.canada.ca


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## Dogger1953 (Dec 14, 2012)

The Canada/USA agreement won't help you with either your CPP or US SS eligibility at all, because you qualify for them without totalizing those contributions under the agreement. Where the agreement may help you by totalizing is in qualifying for the Canadian Old Age Security (OAS) pension. For OAS, if you're living in Canada when you apply you need to have 10 years of residence in Canada after age 18 or if applying from outside Canada you need 20 such years. If you don't have sufficient residence in Canada, you can use your 40 quarters as 10 years of Canadian residence in order to meet that requirement, although the amount of your OAS will be based on your actual years of residence in Canada.only.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Dogger1953 said:


> The Canada/USA agreement won't help you with either your CPP or US SS eligibility at all...


Hi Dogger, I know you're an expert in this so could I also ask you about my situation. I did not understand what you meant by the above statement.

I worked in the US and paid into SS for 5 years. I'm now back in Canada, continuing to work and pay into CPP and will be living in Canada for the rest of my life. I don't think I'll have any problem qualifying for OAS as I already have > 10 years of residence.

But I am concerned about CPP. On the Service Canada portal, if I look at Estimated Monthly CPP, it's awfully low right now at only 25% of the maximum because I haven't paid too much into CPP, while working in the US. And since I was only in the US for 5 years, I did not reach the 10 year threshold to be eligible to collect US SS in the future.

So I've lost out on CPP contributions and can't get US SS either.

I'm wondering if those 5 years in the US are a total loss, from the perspective of CPP & US SS. Is there a way to get CPP credit for those 5 years in the US?

I just don't feel great about it being a total loss after paying $37k of SS tax over those years.


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## Dogger1953 (Dec 14, 2012)

Hi James - Sorry if I misled you. I said that the agreement wouldn't help Mungbeans with either his CPP or his US SS because he already qualified for both of those benefits without needing the agreement (ie., there is no minimum number of contributions for a CPP retirement pension, and he had the required 40 quarters to qualify for US SS). You on the other hand, can qualify for US SS under the agreement if you have at least 5 years of CPP contributions. The agreement won't affect the amount of either your CPP or US SS benefits, because it only ever helps you meet any minimum eligibility requirements.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Dogger1953 said:


> Hi James - Sorry if I misled you. I said that the agreement wouldn't help Mungbeans with either his CPP or his US SS because he already qualified for both of those benefits without needing the agreement (ie., there is no minimum number of contributions for a CPP retirement pension, and he had the required 40 quarters to qualify for US SS). You on the other hand, can qualify for US SS under the agreement if you have at least 5 years of CPP contributions. The agreement won't affect the amount of either your CPP or US SS benefits, because it only ever helps you meet any minimum eligibility requirements.


Interesting, thanks! I do have more than 5 years of CPP contributions. Does that mean that, when I retire, I would simultaneously apply for both CPP and SS ?


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## Dogger1953 (Dec 14, 2012)

Hi James - You wouldn't have to apply for them simultaneously (although you could) partly because they may have different rules for what age they become payable. You would just apply for CPP through one of the regular application processes, but you would have to submit a special application for the US SS under the agreement. Here's a weblink for that purpose: United-States - Pensions and Benefits - Canada.ca


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Dogger1953 said:


> Hi James - You wouldn't have to apply for them simultaneously (although you could) partly because they may have different rules for what age they become payable. You would just apply for CPP through one of the regular application processes, but you would have to submit a special application for the US SS under the agreement. Here's a weblink for that purpose: United-States - Pensions and Benefits - Canada.ca


Thanks very much


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## BC Eddie (Feb 2, 2014)

Just in case readers got the wrong impression from earlier posts; If you are a Canadian who has worked in the US you do not need to have a minimum of 40 credits to qualify for US Social Security (SS). If you paid Social Security tax and have less than 40 credits you can still get a reduced SS. I only had 16 credits and I get SS.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

BC Eddie said:


> Just in case readers got the wrong impression from earlier posts; If you are a Canadian who has worked in the US you do not need to have a minimum of 40 credits to qualify for US Social Security (SS). If you paid Social Security tax and have less than 40 credits you can still get a reduced SS. I only had 16 credits and I get SS.


Very interesting, thanks. Is there an easy way to check how many "credits" I have with US SS?


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## Dogger1953 (Dec 14, 2012)

BC Eddie said:


> Just in case readers got the wrong impression from earlier posts; If you are a Canadian who has worked in the US you do not need to have a minimum of 40 credits to qualify for US Social Security (SS). If you paid Social Security tax and have less than 40 credits you can still get a reduced SS. I only had 16 credits and I get SS.


Hi BC Eddie - Just to clarify further, I suspect you still needed a total of 40 quarters equivalent, but you "totalized" under the Canada/USA agreement by using 6 years (24 quarters) of your CPP contributions in order to qualify for US SS benefits. You may not even have been aware that's what happened, but I'm sure that is what happened. This wouldn't have reduced your CPP amount at all, because totalizing your contributions in order to meet the minimum contributory requirements in one or both countries does not transfer those contributions to the other country. They are used by the other country for eligibility purposes only, and they do not affect the amount of benefit that you receive from the other country (US, in this case).


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Very interesting, thanks. Is there an easy way to check how many "credits" I have with US SS?








Survivorship A to Z -


Before Your File Claim For Social Security Disability	DONE



www.survivorshipatoz.org









Online Services | SSA


Provides information and links to Social Security's online services.




www.ssa.gov





The links seem like a good place to start.


Cheers


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