# Diary to constrain spending



## james4beach

I moved to the US for a new job (all amounts in USD). My monthly spending went up entirely due to travel (exploring the region and frequent visits home). I fear I'm letting my spending run away from me and getting in that trap of higher income & higher expenses. I don't want to get used to an expensive lifestyle.

I recently got a raise, and now I want to make sure I keep my spending in check so that I actually get ahead and don't squander my raise. Like Mr. Money Mustache, I think it's critical to have a high savings rate.

My take-home pay is $5,900/month, and I've tried to adjust for tax refunds, dual-country taxes, etc
*Goal: save $3,000/month, spend $2,900/month* to achieve a 51% savings rate.

This is realistic and very doable as I budgeted these amounts based on my long-term averages.


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## james4beach

I'm really focusing on spending through all of this. Here is my monthly spending in 2014. That year was quite typical of my pattern (previous years had similar averages)


April2,447May3,078June2,880July2,710August4,398September2,643October2,191November2,384December2,293*2014 Average**2,780*

And 2015 so far. You can see how it's running away from me:


January3,009February2,629March3,178April3,990May3,498June3,137July3,767*2015 Average so far**3,315*


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## james4beach

Additionally, to hit my *monthly spending goal of 2,900* here are the guidelines based on my past averages. Single with an apartment in the city core:

Food: 380
Rent + utilities: 1,420
Travel/transportation: 400
Services incl cell: 140
Home essentials: 110
Consumer goods: 80
Entertainment: 200
Health-related: 80
Gifts/donations: 50
Uncategorized: 40 (this is avg of infrequent big purchases)


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## Financialplannerdude

Understand that one! I'm somewhat the same way, spending not savings come natural to us. Financial planning 101 pay yourself first. We bought several investment properties and have the mortgages come out of our regular account. This is recent but I have automatic withdraws for our DRIP accounts once the money is gone I don't really notice it.


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## My Own Advisor

A 50%+ savings rate would be great. Seems like it's very doable for you James!


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## RBull

Pretty good job none the less James. That's an incredible savings rate and very reasonable living expenses. 

We saved about 1/3 of the rate you are.


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## peterk

Geez when you said you had "high spending" in another thread last week I wasn't picturing this James! Well done. Not many people are saving so much of their income, especially living alone...

I've taken less interest in budgeting monthly as I used to. I don't really see the point anymore. Just make sure your core expenses are efficient and low (rent, food, transportation, phone/tv/internet) and make sure that the extras are _worthwhile_ to you, and you're good to go. Don't fret over spending 4 or 5k in a month when you're budget is 3k, so long as that extra spending has been on something worthwhile (like a surfing trip down south?).

I also used to like MMM's chart with the math about savings rate, but I now think it's kinda silly. I mean I get the point, but when it comes down to it savings rate % is _NOT_ the most important factor when determining when you'll retire, not at all. The most important things, in order, are: your spending _during_ retirement, investment returns, and your saving _amount_ (not rate) while working.

Someone who makes 30k net, saves 20k and spends 10k living frugally is "killing it" according to the MMM chart. But you, who are spending 36k and saving 36k, have a "longer" time to retirement according to the charts because you "only" save 50%. I'd call bullshit on that. When it comes down to it, after 15 years he'll have some amount of money, and you'll have some amount that is twice as much. They'll say "but you spent so much while you were working so you'll spend that much when you're retired too" I'd call bullshit on that as well. It's easy as pie to cut back your spending whenever you want! Sure it might be a bit tougher if you're 40 with a mortgage, wife, and 3 kids... But when retiring/quitting work, I don't see why one cannot revamp their life extensively to accommodate any spending level they require, regardless of past spending.

Overall I think MAKING more money is much more important than saving more money. Don't get caught in the MMM frugality trap where your savings rate is the all-important indicator of success. Budgeting, discount shopping, and reading about frugality all the time are very real drains on your brain. You only have so much mental energy to spend, and if you spend too much on frugality then other, more important things, are GOING to get pushed out. Things like investing, developing ways to improve your career/business, making side income, taking care of your health, etc.

Of course I know know MMM has articles refuting what I've said, and insisting that frugality/savings is more important than income. But my post is getting too long already so I'll just leave it at that for now.


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## james4beach

Thanks for the encouragement, everyone.

peterk, I continue to debate this with myself. I've landed on the side of _aiming_ for a certain annual expense target (35 K for me), but not depriving myself of things I want... like the surfing trip  I still think that recording and tracking is a great exercise. But I fully forgive myself the high expense months, like the $4,398 month last year when I did _two_ surfing trips and toured the Oregon coast. Worth every penny.

You might have a point that expenses can easily adjust downward in retirement. Suddenly you gain flexibility in when you travel, book trips, etc. One reason my trips are so expensive is that I'm always booking around tight work schedules with limited windows, and I get forced into expensive tickets. That wouldn't happen when you're retired.

Also - I'm not quite as nutty as I sound. My employment has been very boom & bust (due to the technical consulting field I'm in) and it would be very normal to encounter another year without income. Right now, business is great so I'm trying to save for a rainy day and 51% savings is feasible today. In two or three years it might not be and I may not be able to save anything, so the high savings rate is my protection. Averaged over say the last 10 years, my savings rate is well below 50%


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## james4beach

I went back and calculated that over my working years, my average savings rate is 30% (this is mainly due to periods of low income).


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## My Own Advisor

30% is still very high....well done.


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## tygrus

Kids? Wife? you can kiss all that good bye when you do unless she has an equivalent career to you.


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## james4beach

tygrus I'm not following. You lose your wife and kids when you do what?


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## cashinstinct

james4beach said:


> tygrus I'm not following. You lose your wife and kids when you do what?


Saving 50% of salary is rough when you have a spouse / kids. It can be done for sure, with discipline (depending on income).

I am not currently able to save 50% of my take-home pay. I am around 40% net salary if you include DB pension plan contributions, but it requires discipline for sure...


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## james4beach

Monthly update. *August spending: $2,940*

I got close to the goal of spending less than 2,900 a month. I'm pleased with this. August has been my lowest spending in six months and I definitely made efforts -- switched Internet providers, used public transit more, and ate out less. Thanks everyone for the encouragement 

Fun was not negatively impacted. I did my surfing trip to California!


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## nobleea

cashinstinct said:


> Saving 50% of salary is rough when you have a spouse / kids. It can be done for sure, with discipline (depending on income).
> 
> I am not currently able to save 50% of my take-home pay. I am around 40% net salary if you include DB pension plan contributions, but it requires discipline for sure...


Weird. I'd say adding a wife to the mix makes it easier to save 50% of salary. Income goes up, but expenses go up only marginally.
Kids can throw a wrench in the mix, but generally not until they reach school age. Babies and toddlers are cheap.


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## scorpion_ca

I think your monthly entertainment expenses is kind of high..... you could try to reduce it.


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## cashinstinct

nobleea said:


> Weird. I'd say adding a wife to the mix makes it easier to save 50% of salary. Income goes up, but expenses go up only marginally.
> Kids can throw a wrench in the mix, but generally not until they reach school age. Babies and toddlers are cheap.


If I was single with no kids, I would be renting an appartment, not owning a house... expenses go up to the sky.


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## none

cashinstinct said:


> If I was single with no kids, I would be renting an appartment, not owning a house... expenses go up to the sky.


That's what i do and consequently I save close to 50%. Only have to do that for another couple years and then I will have my target amount of money saved for retirement and then it's pay-check to pacy-check until I'm dead.


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## Moneytoo

nobleea said:


> Weird. I'd say adding a wife to the mix makes it easier to save 50% of salary. Income goes up, but expenses go up only marginally.
> Kids can throw a wrench in the mix, but generally not until they reach school age. Babies and toddlers are cheap.


I'd have to do the math to get the exact numbers, but, approximately speaking: I save and invest about 90% of my earnings, husband (who makes more than twice as me) - about 40% of his, so together more than 50% for sure. (The reason for me investing more for the next few years is so my RRSP gets closer to his - for tax purposes in retirement and in case i'll have to stop working before he does)

Our 5-bedroom house is paid off (but - we bought it in 1996, for less than 1 bedroom Toronto condos are sold these days) and costs us about $800 a month (with all utilities, taxes, cable and internet). My husband's parents live with us and take care of the house (also save a ton on groceries), our daughter goes to the medical school and plans to keep living at home until she graduates and starts earning money. I think even with repairs and renovations it's still much cheaper to own in our case - especially if we'd have to rent two or three different places (for parents, daughter and ourselves) 

So, as Eclectic12 loves to say - YMMV


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## none

Moneytoo said:


> I'd have to do the math to get the exact numbers, but, approximately speaking: I save and invest about 90% of my earnings, husband (who makes more than twice as me) - about 40% of his, so together more than 50% for sure. (The reason for me investing more for the next few years is so my RRSP gets closer to his - for tax purposes in retirement and in case i'll have to stop working before he does)


Hopefully it's a spousal RRSP.


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## Moneytoo

none said:


> Hopefully it's a spousal RRSP.


Why? No, it's mine - I have ~90K of unused RRSP contribution room, and now that I make 90K+ - it makes sense to use it while I still work. He'll have a chance to open a spousal RRSP after I catch up with mine, but the plan is that he'll be contributing to his more. (If you're implying that I'm investing his money in my RRSP - for two years before last summer I was "the sole breadwinner" and didn't save enough to invest; but I hope you meant that we'd be saving more on taxes if it was a spousal )


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## andrewf

I also save about 50% of take home/after tax, when I add back in my workplace payroll deductions (DC pension, share purchase; not CPP). Similar life circumstances... I probably spend a bit too much on some things, and too little on others.


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## My Own Advisor

A 50% savings rate is huge....that's great.

I think ours is about 25% with TFSAs and RRSPs and non-registered investments. Excluding mortgage prepayments.


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## showmethemoney45

nobleea said:


> Babies and toddlers are cheap.


Yes they are cheap if you don't need daycare and you breastfeed till kindergarten...


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## gibor365

cashinstinct said:


> Saving 50% of salary is rough when you have a spouse / kids. It can be done for sure, with discipline (depending on income).
> 
> I am not currently able to save 50% of my take-home pay. I am around 40% net salary if you include DB pension plan contributions, but it requires discipline for sure...


True! Especially if you, your spouse and kids seriously doing some sport activities and all of you like to travel 

We saved:
2013 - 36%
2014 - 34%
2015 (so far) - 44%

(numbers not including GRRSP contributons and ESP)


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## none

Moneytoo said:


> Why? No, it's mine - I have ~90K of unused RRSP contribution room, and now that I make 90K+ - it makes sense to use it while I still work. He'll have a chance to open a spousal RRSP after I catch up with mine, but the plan is that he'll be contributing to his more. (If you're implying that I'm investing his money in my RRSP - for two years before last summer I was "the sole breadwinner" and didn't save enough to invest; but I hope you meant that we'd be saving more on taxes if it was a spousal )


Sorry - a bit of a bonk. I got the 'whos RRSP contribution room a spousal RRSP comes from' mixed up.


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## gibor365

> we'd be saving more on taxes if it was a spousal


 only if you and you spouse are in different tax brackets.



> I have ~90K of unused RRSP contribution room


 if you have RRSp room, than why do invest into Cash account?


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## Moneytoo

gibor said:


> only if you and you spouse are in different tax brackets.


We are (I'm in lower), but I believe there's a higher chance of him working longer and making more, so no rush, he can open a spousal account in 10 years or never 



> if you have RRSp room, than why do invest into Cash account?


The only cash account we have is joint HISA for "emergencies" (and I don't consider it investing ) So until we max out registered - no unregistered...

(I'll answer any further questions in my thread - James, I'm sorry, I was just trying to make a point that wife will not spend all your money! lol)


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## james4beach

Monthly update. *September spending: $3,096*

Unfortunately I ran over my target budget of 2900. Looking at the causes using my category breakdown, I'm over-budget entirely due to travel expenses.


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## peterk

I always give vacation/travel spending a pass. I make sure I'm not going nuts with it, of course, but I don't include it when I'm assessing my spending habits. At the end of the year I look at my non-rent, non-grocery, non-vacation expenditures, and as long as they are well below $1,000/month (on an annual basis), I am happy.


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## james4beach

Monthly update. October spending: $2,781 which is below my monthly spending goal of 2900

_This month_: 5900 net income - 2781 spent = 3119 saved (53% savings)

Very pleased with myself, this was my lowest monthly spending in eight months. I'll tally it up at the end of the year to see what savings rate I've achieved for the calendar year. Additionally, there are faint early signs of potential trouble ahead at our company. Since boom & bust in my field is inevitable, this gives me an added reason to keep the savings rate high in anticipation of potential unemployment.


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## james4beach

The monthly savings rate isn't too important... there's too much volatility and large purchases that could easily shift one month to the next. For my monthly updates, I'm going to add trailing 12 month savings rate: the savings rate over the last 12 months

October spending: $2,781
Total spent in last 12 months: $36,701

*Trailing 12 month savings rate: 48.2%*


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## james4beach

Monthly update. This month was good, but still a bit shy of the big goal for the 12 months

November spending: $2,711
Total spent in last 12 months: $37,028

*Trailing 12 mo savings rate: 47.7%*


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## james4beach

Monthly update and yearly total for 2015. I continue to be a bit shy of the overall goal for the year so I have to keep watching my expenses carefully. There will be a bit more pressure on this next year as my rent has been raised 5%

December spending: $2,805
Total spent in last 12 months: $37,540

*Trailing 12 mo. savings rate: 47.0%*


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## james4beach

January spending: $2,854
Total spent in last 12 months: $37,385

*Trailing 12 mo. savings rate: 47.2%*


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## Pluto

I have nothing against saving, and all the more power to you. Keep it up. 

With my financial plan, most of my "savings" came from investing and capital gains. When I was younger I lived frugally and saved. After age 40, I essentially did not save much from my income. My savings came from my investments. Once I got my seed money for investing going, I saved less and just let my best investments run. 

There is nothing like buying assets that produce income, and using the income to buy more assets that produce income. 

Look at a long term chart of RY for example. Starting in the mid '90's it steadily chugged along right through the tech bust consistently spitting out increasing dividends up to the present. The big pothole was 08-09 from which it quickly recovered. If you put your savings into companies such as that, in 10 years you might not feel like having to save anymore because the investments save for you.


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## james4beach

February spending: $2,619
Total spent in last 12 months: $37,375

*Trailing 12 mo. savings rate: 47.2%*


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## james4beach

I'm interested in hearing from other forum members who are in their 30s and have no children. What is your total annual spending, including all housing costs? I can't tell if mine is high or low. When I was 28 years old, I was living on 30K a year and now just a few years later I'm spending 37K a year. For me anyway, that difference comes entirely from increased housing cost (+3K in a year) and more travel/vacation (+4K)


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## none

Pluto said:


> With my financial plan, most of my "savings" came from investing and capital gains. When I was younger I lived frugally and saved. After age 40, I essentially did not save much from my income. My savings came from my investments. Once I got my seed money for investing going, I saved less and just let my best investments run.


That's my plan too. *hopefully* after this year I should have a enough capital invested to give me an effectively high savings rate without actually saving anything anymore. I'll be glad when this austerity period of my life is over. Saving is not exactly fun.


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## nathan79

james4beach said:


> I'm interested in hearing from other forum members who are in their 30s and have no children. What is your total annual spending, including all housing costs? I can't tell if mine is high or low. When I was 28 years old, I was living on 30K a year and now just a few years later I'm spending 37K a year. For me anyway, that difference comes entirely from increased housing cost (+3K in a year) and more travel/vacation (+4K)


I'm 36 and I spent 24K last year. My average is probably closer to 20K. 

I have low housing costs and rarely vacation. My annual vacation typically consists of camping for 1-2 nights in July. I haven't set foot on a plane since 2007.


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## james4beach

Thanks Nathan that's very helpful. Wow maybe I really am spending way too much!


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## nathan79

james4beach said:


> Thanks Nathan that's very helpful. Wow maybe I really am spending way too much!


How much do you spend on travel?


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## james4beach

Counting flights and hotels, about $5000 a year. Because I'm working far from home, about half of this is just to visit family.

I'm sticking pretty close to a budget from this earlier post (link)

I'm curious which of those items are really different than yours. There's obviously a huge difference in our totals!


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## nathan79

james4beach said:


> Counting flights and hotels, about $5000 a year. Because I'm working far from home, about half of this is just to visit family.
> 
> I'm sticking pretty close to a budget from this earlier post (link)
> 
> I'm curious which of those items are really different than yours. There's obviously a huge difference in our totals!


You spend almost $1000 more than me per month on rent/utilities. Combine that with the 5K for travel and that equals 17K per year, which would account for the entire difference.


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## NetworkGuy

James, I spend more than you. No kids, no gf and don't do much of anything. Here's a list:

Rent 975
Rental Ins 16
Heat & Hydro	200
Internet 56
Rogers Cell	96
Car Insurance	134
Xm Radio	8
Oil Change	40
Gas 300 
Grocery	280
Lunch	200
Hair 40
Health	40
Misc 100


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## james4beach

Hi NetworkGuy, thanks. But those add up to $2,485 = annual 29.8 K expenses, much less than I spend!


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## NetworkGuy

james4beach said:


> Hi NetworkGuy, thanks. But those add up to $2,485 = annual 29.8 K expenses, much less than I spend!


Ah yes, I finished paying off my car which was about $1250 a month and I didn't include car maintenance other than oil changes. I gotta re-read the thread. I hope you figure it out.


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## peterk

You live in the pacific northwest don't you? Those sound like reasonable expenses. Be happy you don't live in LA or NYC or Washington, at least. You'd be broke!

Just FYI James my monthly breakdown based on 2015 spending is this:

Age 29, living with GF but keep separate finances. Rent and entertainment expenses would probably increase by 100-200/month if I were single.

Rent+utilities+internet+insurance: $1150
Groceries: $320
Vacations & Trips: $970
Other (Entertainment, clothes, phone, restaurants, booze, presents, random stuff): $920

Total: $3,375 or $40,500 annually.

I've already got my rent reduced this year, and I don't expect vacation expenses to be nearly as expensive. My overall spending for 2016 is targeted somewhere around 33-35k.


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## james4beach

Thanks peterk that's helpful to know!


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## gibor365

It's a good thing that you're keeping track of your spending 
We're family of 4, no debt, own house .... In 2013 we spent 64% of income, in 2014 - 69% , it sounds too much and I started to track it on monthly basis , thus in 2015 we spent just 50%  w/o changing our lifestyle...


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## nobleea

What's the consensus on mortgage paydown? Does the principal portion of the payment count as savings? Or is it an expense? I would argue savings.


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## none

Anything that increases your net worth I would argue are savings in a sense. If you won 20K and you bought a 20K car I would say that was sorta kinda a form of savings.


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## james4beach

gibor said:


> It's a good thing that you're keeping track of your spending
> We're family of 4, no debt, own house .... In 2013 we spent 64% of income, in 2014 - 69% , it sounds too much and I started to track it on monthly basis , thus in 2015 we spent just 50%  w/o changing our lifestyle...


Nice job gibor!  It's amazing how just tracking this seems to have a big impact. I'm finding the same in my life... monitoring the spending really helps keep it in check


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## My Own Advisor

Great work James. Your savings rate is very high. 

I think our savings rate remains around 25% with TFSAs and RRSPs and non-registered investments, excluding mortgage prepayments. After TFSAs are maxed, then we apply mortgage prepayments. That work is happening now.


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## nobleea

none said:


> Anything that increases your net worth I would argue are savings in a sense. If you won 20K and you bought a 20K car I would say that was sorta kinda a form of savings.


Agree, but it has to be an active decision and come from your income. If your investments increased by 4K in one month, I wouldn't count that as 4K in savings since it wasn't part of your income, but it did increase your net worth. In your example of winning the lottery, I would say the 20K is part of your income. Buying a depreciating asset might not have been wise, but still works for 'savings'.


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## james4beach

My Own Advisor said:


> Great work James. Your savings rate is very high.


Thanks! Part of this is really about uncertainty with employment income. It was also inspired by a senior guy I work with, a bit of a career mentor. I asked him how he ended up where he is and how much he saved from paycheques in early years... he told me what he did and I've been trying to replicate his level of savings.


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## james4beach

March spending: $2,635
Total spent in last 12 months: $36,833
*Trailing 12 mo. savings rate: 48.0%*

I'm very pleased with March as I had a lot of fun and still stayed below budget. I had a nice downhill ski trip and a long weekend in Vancouver. Damn I love that city...

There are some big expenses on the horizon. Coming up soon: accountant/intl tax preparer fees close to 1K, and then a friend's wedding in the Caribbean (flights+resort+suit+gifts)


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## My Own Advisor

Geez that's good.


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## RBull

Great job J4b. Good to see you're still having lots of fun while maintaining a superb savings rate.


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## NorthKC

Wow! That's fantastic!


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## james4beach

Thanks for the encouragement everyone!


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## james4beach

April spending: $2,367
Total spent in last 12 months: $35,217
*Trailing 12 mo. savings rate: 50.3%*

A milestone - first time I've actually gotten over 50% savings rate for the trailing twelve months


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## BigMonkey

Wow fantastic saving rate! Where in the states are you and what line of work what are you in?


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## james4beach

Thanks! I'm in Oregon and I currently work in software engineering, though it's not what you'd think of as typical web/IT/programming. I hardly ever write any code; it's more system design, research, modelling, technical writing. My background is in Electrical & Computer Engineering.

What's helped my income... significantly... is that I bagged a big contract (my sales/marketing hat). I also designed and now lead a technical project (pseudo-management hat).

The work isn't easy. I just pulled a 14 hour day. On the other hand, I get to experience these forests, mountains, and coast line. Unlike Toronto... where everyone seemed to be a stressed-out workaholic... here people really enjoy nature. They're chilled out, and it's not just the legal marijuana. Everyone at the office is an avid cyclist or hiker and people love getting out to enjoy the beautiful surroundings. They really do things right in Oregon; I _really_ like their style.

Photo from my weekend. I spent 4 hours hiking the coastal cliffs!


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## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> Photo from my weekend. I spent 4 hours hiking the coastal cliffs!




beautiful. One can practically inhale the fragrant pine-needle air.
.











.


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## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Thanks! I'm in Oregon and I currently work in software engineering, though it's not what you'd think of as typical web/IT/programming. I hardly ever write any code; it's more system design, research, modelling, technical writing. My background is in Electrical & Computer Engineering.
> ...
> *The work isn't easy. I just pulled a 14 hour day. On the other hand, I get to experience these forests, mountains, and coast line. Unlike Toronto... where everyone seemed to be a stressed-out workaholic...* here people really enjoy nature. They're chilled out, and it's not just the legal marijuana. Everyone at the office is an avid cyclist or hiker and people love getting out to enjoy the beautiful surroundings. They really do things right in Oregon; I _really_ like their style.
> 
> *Photo from my weekend. I spent 4 hours hiking the coastal cliffs!*


 ... you got the Toronto work-life right ... but now is the 4 hours hiking included in the 14 hours per day that you pulled in Oregon? :biggrin: And do you get to sleep?


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## redsgomarching

james4beach said:


> Thanks! I'm in Oregon and I currently work in software engineering, though it's not what you'd think of as typical web/IT/programming. I hardly ever write any code; it's more system design, research, modelling, technical writing. My background is in Electrical & Computer Engineering.
> 
> What's helped my income... significantly... is that I bagged a big contract (my sales/marketing hat). I also designed and now lead a technical project (pseudo-management hat).
> 
> The work isn't easy. I just pulled a 14 hour day. On the other hand, I get to experience these forests, mountains, and coast line. Unlike Toronto... where everyone seemed to be a stressed-out workaholic... here people really enjoy nature. They're chilled out, and it's not just the legal marijuana. Everyone at the office is an avid cyclist or hiker and people love getting out to enjoy the beautiful surroundings. They really do things right in Oregon; I _really_ like their style.
> 
> Photo from my weekend. I spent 4 hours hiking the coastal cliffs!
> 
> View attachment 10458


i think people in toronto and the gta in general are too much about "the life". my brother moved and started to work in england and has mentioned how everyone is just relaxed and about engagement with employees is something his company in particular pays extreme attention to.


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## james4beach

Yes finding free time is definitely a challenge... I wish I had more leisure time to explore nature around here


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## james4beach

May spending: $3,651
Total spent in last 12 months: $35,370
*Trailing 12 mo. savings rate: 50.0%*

May's spending is way above average, and it's entirely due to the huge amount paid to my cross-border tax accountant for annual advice & tax preparation. Notice here that the 12 month figures are very useful... since this big expense happens at the same time each year, the rolling 12 month figure didn't change.

It's good that I saved aggressively earlier, because now I'm planning for a friend's wedding in the Caribbean and it's going to cost me a fortune. I've already spent $2500 CAD in June related to this. Luckily the wedding is also using all my remaining vacation days for the year, freeing me from the burden of figuring out what other leisure activities or nature expeditions I may want to do.

My estimate for total costs associated with attending this friend's wedding is 2700 = 7.6% of my entire annual spending. Ouch. Things of this nature will always come up, though this is the most I have ever spent on a wedding in my life.


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## NorthKC

I always think destination wedding as a vacation and wedding rolled into one and "separate" them out if you will. The key is to ensure there's actually stuff to do as some places don't allow you to go outside of your resort which, imo, makes for one very boring vacation.


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## james4beach

That's a good point. Part of this is definitely a vacation for myself. It's just that I didn't get to choose the location of the vacation (and I wouldn't have chosen this one)


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## james4beach

Wedding-linked costs are already over $3,000 and my original estimate way was off; now I'm projecting total costs at $5,000+

This is getting insane. If these two split up later, I'm going to hit them.


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## NorthKC

I would walk away at that point.


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## none

Wedding's are super fun. Some things are worth the $$$.


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## james4beach

I'm already deep enough into it, but this shall be the last wedding I attend for a long time. I've already sunk enough nonrefundable money into plane tickets. What I _should_ have done is, more research into expected costs before accepting. Oops.

I'm convinced it will be fun but as a guy who works so hard to save up my money, this is kind of painful.

From now on, at least for the next 2 years, I will prioritize selfish travel and leisure, which I'm always able to do for a fraction of these costs. When it's on my own terms, I am a very frugal traveler.


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## james4beach

June spending: $4,168
Total spent in last 12 months: $36,401
*Trailing 12 mo. savings rate: 48.6%*

Good news is that the trailing numbers don't look so bad and I'm still close to my target. These numbers are all in USD since my income/expenses are USD. Costs directly for the wedding were $1,866 but excluding that, my monthly spending is only $2,302 which is significantly less than normal. I was able to slightly compensate for the high wedding costs by cutting back on other spending: entertainment, consumer goods and home necessities.


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## james4beach

james4beach said:


> Wedding-linked costs are already over $3,000 and my original estimate way was off; now I'm projecting total costs at $5,000+


The wedding is over. Total cost for the bachelor party + destination wedding came to $4,309 USD = $5,560 CAD

I don't recommend destination weddings. _It's not really a vacation_ -- just a lot of obligations, doing things on other people's schedules, and a bit of extortion. Sure, it was fun! But not $5000 of fun.

Now I must decide whether to become more frugal for the next twelve months just to keep my savings rate high. Probably not. I'll call the destination wedding "once in a lifetime" -- since I never plan to do another -- and will continue spending as normal. My savings rate will go down as a result of this, but them's the breaks.


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## Janus

James, I've been listening to a lot of financial independence podcasts, reading blogs and whatnot, and have been amazed how many people get their annual spending down below $25,000. I've noticed you're similar to me in that you run around $36,000 per year in expenses. Do you see much fat to cut in your life? I assume that like me the answer is "a bit, but not a lot". I could be a bit smarter about eating out but struggle how to get $10,000 off annual spending without moving in with a roommate.


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## james4beach

Hi Janus, funny, I was browsing your thread tonight too. Unfortunately I don't see much room to cut, unless I'm willing to give up some of my travel (and I love travelling, beaches, etc). I also like my apartment, even though my rent is somewhat high.

I can imagine getting down to $33,000 but I doubt I can get as low as $30k without some hardship. I don't eat out, and I barely drink at all. But this city in the US is quite expensive... just housing and groceries are quite a bit more expensive than what I paid in Ontario. West coast..

Tonight I BBQ'ed a tuna steak and chicken drumsticks. Then again, the tuna was marked down and the drumsticks were barely $2.50/lb. But see, I'm not living a particularly luxurious lifestyle. I eat well, but mostly it's groceries and cooking my own stuff. This is just an expensive city to live in.

We have very similar net worths by the way. Can you remind me, what kind of work do you do? Your income is awfully high. I'm in computer & electrical engineering.


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## james4beach

July spending: $3,647
Total spent in last 12 months: $36,282
*Trailing 12 mo. savings rate: 48.8%*

The full impact of the wedding is not yet visible because a big chunk of it occurs in August.


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## Janus

Hmm, interesting. It looks, then, like Toronto is actually a cheaper place to live than I'd previously thought relative to some other places in North America.

I basically work in a hedge fund, so my income is finally starting to shoot up past $200,000 and doesn't have much of a ceiling. Of course, much of this is variable and I could be out of a job at a moment's notice. So I don't want to pretend I'll be making this forever. One year at a time...


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## james4beach

Nice! Well yes, save up. My work is also boom & bust which is why I'm a conservative investor. I may be jobless in a year; wouldn't surprise me.

I found cost of living to be reasonable in Toronto, after I got rid of my car. I thought it was a great deal overall (cost of living vs what you get for it). But I feel bad about what they've done to the Toronto skyline. When I walk some of my old streets, I no longer even see the sky.


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## james4beach

Janus, given the nature of your work, have you thought of insurance such as OOTM index puts as a hedge against your hedge fund employment? Market stays juiced... your puts expire worthless but your income is great. But if the market falls apart, your hedge fund goes poof, and your index puts pay out.


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## Janus

james4beach said:


> Janus, given the nature of your work, have you thought of insurance such as OOTM index puts as a hedge against your hedge fund employment? Market stays juiced... your puts expire worthless but your income is great. But if the market falls apart, your hedge fund goes poof, but your index puts pay out.


I have thought about it but never looked into it in much detail! This line of thinking does indeed make sense to me.

As for the skyline, I agree. and I think overall Toronto has just been an urban planning disaster. From transit to the waterfront/skyline to the sprawl, it'll just never be a great world city. And I'd actually be OK with that if the quality of life there were higher.

Honestly, the standard GTA life of "get a job, lever up, work your *** off, sprint to the GO-train after work for your 40 minute commute back to Oakville/Burlington/wherever, spend your precious evenings driving the kids to hockey and soccer practice" to be absolutely soul-crushingly depressing... which is why I live differently, and why it's hard to picture a future there.


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## james4beach

I agree... many GTA people live a soul-crushing lifestyle. I think the secret is to live in the downtown core. While everyone else was commuting for an hour back home, I'd bike to HTO Park and eat some grapes after work. Better yet, the city got peaceful and more spacious once all the suburban people left.

MMM had a good article on this and had arrived at the same conclusion as me: just rent a downtown apartment.

If you're finding Toronto not so fun, have you explored the lake front? Take an afternoon off work and go hang out on Toronto Island. Bike the wonderful bushy & treed path on the Don River Trail, down to the waterfront, over to Cherry Beach and beyond. Check out the orchestra, opera and ballet performances (highly discounted for young adults). Or go to the AGO for free on Wednesday. I don't know if you're a walker, but I loved walking around downtown Toronto ... through Queens Park, around UofT campus, the glorious trees in the Annex, maybe loop back to Bloor St and get some ice cream or coffee. Or start at Harbourfront (maybe grab a kayak to the island for fun) or start walking/biking west, and you can walk _forever_.

How long have you been in Toronto? I was less than impressed in my first couple years, and then I started really enjoying it (discovering the things I listed above)


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## Janus

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that my life in toronto is as bad as the commuters. I feel like my life there is as good as it gets:

- Apartment is around Queen & Spadina, so I can walk to work downtown but have Queen West on my doorstep.
- I can walk to trinity bellwoods, ossington street bars, or toronto island... or bike to high park, the annex, or any area of the city really.
- I play beach volleyball, softball, do rooftop BBQs...

So you're right, life can be great in TO - I'm personally very happy there. And I was happy to find MMM approves of my lifestyle! XD I just think about cities in which it could be even better than I have it here, and I think there are lots of them. But that said, I know the grass is always greener.


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## james4beach

Yeah there are better cities... I thought Sydney Australia was pretty amazing (but never lived there). I lived in Brisbane and really liked it.

I play beach volleyball too. Have you joined the league at Ashbridges Bay? It should be on right now ... I really loved that.


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## james4beach

August spending: $4,417
August spending ex-wedding: $2,870 (on target)
Total spent in last 12 months: $37,759
*Trailing 12 mo. savings rate: 46.7%*

This was the expected summer bulge in spending. Now I'm eager to see the upcoming months return back to my normal spending level which is around $2900/month.


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## My Own Advisor

Impressive savings rate James.

Excluding our mortgage pre-payments we strive for 30% net, via RRSPs, TFSAs.

I can't imagine 50% or more - that's very frugal.

I guess mortgage prepayments could be considering forced-savings...


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## Spudd

My Own Advisor said:


> Impressive savings rate James.
> 
> Excluding our mortgage pre-payments we strive for 30% net, via RRSPs, TFSAs.
> 
> I can't imagine 50% or more - that's very frugal.
> 
> I guess mortgage prepayments could be considering forced-savings...


Mortgage prepayments definitely count, as do the principle portion of regular mortgage payments. At least in my books! Both increase your net worth as long as you count your house as part of your net worth.


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## james4beach

Thanks My Own Advisor. I rent an apartment, so I think for a fair comparison you should include any amounts that you're paying down a mortgage with. I should have mentioned earlier in this thread that I'm a renter.


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## My Own Advisor

james4beach said:


> Thanks My Own Advisor. I rent an apartment, so I think for a fair comparison you should include any amounts that you're paying down a mortgage with. I should have mentioned earlier in this thread that I'm a renter.


Renter or not, that's a huge savings rate.


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## james4beach

Thanks. It's my attempt to make the most of my current high income. I don't expect this high income level will last and therefore I can't sustain a 50% savings rate. Business is VERY good at our small co right now, looking like great year end bonuses too, but everyone around here knows this won't last forever. I'm saving for a rainy day


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## james4beach

September spending: $2,939
Total spent in last 12 months: $37,602
*Trailing 12 mo. savings rate: 46.9%*

September is right on budget, my target average monthly spending is $2900. And I even squeezed in one surfing trip to California and another weekend hiking the Oregon coast!


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## james4beach

October spending: $2,862
Total spent in last 12 months: $37,683
*Trailing 12 mo. savings rate: 46.8%*

My annual spending is pretty constant at 38 K. My records go back six years, when my annual spending was 28 K. The difference is entirely from two factors: apartment rent up 3 K and travel/flight costs up 6 K. It's nice to be able to pinpoint where the difference comes from. This city has much more expensive rents than what I paid back in Toronto. I'm also now farther away from family and simply must spend more to travel home -- no surprise, really.


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## peterk

A quick thought on mind-set.

When the "goal", loose as it is, is a certain percentage, 51% in this case, you are not going to push yourself to increase savings if it's achieved. Spending should _only_ related to income insomuch that cost of living is generally higher in higher salary locales, but that's it.

You've described a consistent spending of ~38k/year, and even more consistent when corrected for rent and travel. Perhaps your goal shouldn't be "51% savings rate", but "38k maximum spending rate". A certain savings % rate as a goal is a sure-fire way to induce "spending creep" as the years go by and your income increases.

Of course perhaps increased spending is the reward for a successful career, and that is certainly deserved and hard to argue against...But if it happens accidentally, instead of intentionally, due to decreased vigilance and adherence to a "% savings goal" instead of a "$ spent goal", it would be a shame.


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## 1980z28

james4beach said:


> October spending: $2,862
> Total spent in last 12 months: $37,683
> *Trailing 12 mo. savings rate: 46.8%*
> 
> My annual spending is pretty constant at 38 K. My records go back six years, when my annual spending was 28 K. The difference is entirely from two factors: apartment rent up 3 K and travel/flight costs up 6 K. It's nice to be able to pinpoint where the difference comes from. This city has much more expensive rents than what I paid back in Toronto. I'm also now farther away from family and simply must spend more to travel home -- no surprise, really.


Nice, save as much as you can


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## james4beach

Thanks for the thoughts. peterk you might have a point there, let me think about that. I want to fight the tendency for expenses to rise over time because this is really what makes retirement difficult. If I can keep my expenses close to what they are today, I probably only need $1.5 million to retire.


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## lonewolf :)

nobleea said:


> Weird. I'd say adding a wife to the mix makes it easier to save 50% of salary. Income goes up, but expenses go up only marginally.
> Kids can throw a wrench in the mix, but generally not until they reach school age. Babies and toddlers are cheap.


 Odds are it will be harder if you throw in wife & kids. Single only one has to be a saver. Most people are in debt it does not matter how much money they make they will be in debt. The old saying the more you make the deeper in debt is true for a lot of people. If one person is a saver & the other makes all kinds of money loves to live beyond there means it will make it hard for the saver to continue being a saver.


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## cashinstinct

Expense creep is rough with wife & kids. People say todler /baby is cheap... well daycare is not cheap. 

Congrats on your current savings / expense level.


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## Steve Divi

Awesome savings rate James! 

I try to hit 50% but it's tough with a single income and a family of 5. There are always things that need to be bought.


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## james4beach

Thanks for the pep talks guys! Steve, that would be really tough with a family of 5 on a single income. It's incredible if you can get anywhere close to 50%, you must have a great income!


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## james4beach

November spending: $2,422
Total spent in last 12 months: $37,394
*Trailing 12 mo. savings rate: 47.2%*

I've discovered strong seasonal patterns in my spending; every November is low. So I think it's good to look at that trailing 12 month figure. I have some job uncertainty now due to the possibility that Trump repeals NAFTA, which would kill my TN. So I'm working a bit harder at hoarding money and reducing my spending (not so good for the US economy!)

I like peterk's idea of stating my goal in terms of "absolute $ spending", not as %. The longer I can avoid spending creep, the better. Around the new year I will re-evaluate this goal but perhaps I will start aiming for something like maximum 38K spending.


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## GreenAvenue

Steve Divi said:


> Awesome savings rate James!
> 
> I try to hit 50% but it's tough with a single income and a family of 5. There are always things that need to be bought.


 
 Same here, one car repair and I'm off track right away


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## james4beach

I'm changing the statement of my savings goal for 2017.

*My new goal: spend less than $38,000 a year!* (single, no children)

Watching my mom and dad heading into retirement has really driven home the importance of spending level. I want to fight the tendency of expenses to increase over time and I think this will be a more useful goal.


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## 1980z28

That should be very easy to do to live of 38k net

you may surprise your self and even reduce that


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## peterk

Excellent.


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## My Own Advisor

A spend of $38k (net) per year, per person is still a healthy spend.


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## 1980z28

My Own Advisor said:


> A spend of $38k (net) per year, per person is still a healthy spend.


May be he could remove another few k and still be ok

I agreed,I am well below that,i guess old persons need less if health is good with no debt


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## Spudd

1980z28 said:


> May be he could remove another few k and still be ok
> 
> I agreed,I am well below that,i guess old persons need less if health is good with no debt


Don't forget, you own your home and he pays rent. That adds a good amount of expenses.


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## 1980z28

Spudd said:


> Don't forget, you own your home and he pays rent. That adds a good amount of expenses.



I would think with no spouse , children would help,,,


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## Spudd

1980z28 said:


> I would think with no spouse , children would help,,,
> 
> House still cost to maintain about same as rent?


When I lived in Toronto I owned a house. Let's say it was mortgage-free for the sake of argument (it wasn't in real life). Property tax was about $3600/year and maintenance costs, hard to estimate, but I think $5000/year would be estimating high. So $8600/year. I then sold that house and moved to a rental where I had about 75% of the space I had in the house. I paid $1900/month for the rental. $22,800 a year. That's $14,000 extra per year. 

If it was just as expensive to maintain a house as it was to rent, nobody would ever be a landlord.


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## 1980z28

Spudd said:


> When I lived in Toronto I owned a house. Let's say it was mortgage-free for the sake of argument (it wasn't in real life). Property tax was about $3600/year and maintenance costs, hard to estimate, but I think $5000/year would be estimating high. So $8600/year. I then sold that house and moved to a rental where I had about 75% of the space I had in the house. I paid $1900/month for the rental. $22,800 a year. That's $14,000 extra per year.
> 
> If it was just as expensive to maintain a house as it was to rent, nobody would ever be a landlord.


As for me today with two houses,i live in one and just finished the build on one,both free and clear

Cost for me to maintain both with utilitys, taxes,insurance,repairs etc is appox 1200 per month average,,,you are correct rent is more,when this house is sold in a couple of months,,,my cost per month will be less than 500 per month

I guess to cut expense one could get a cheaper apt

apt do cost more,way more,plus no capital gain


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## Benting

Spudd said:


> When I lived in Toronto I owned a house. Let's say it was mortgage
> 
> Well, if you sold your house with for $$$. Certainly you probably would get some interest to offset the cost of renting. Might even gain (or lost) some if you invest in the market


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## james4beach

I know my spending goal is high at 38K. A few years ago it was 28K, and by analyzing past records I was able to identify the cause of the increase: housing up 3K and travel up 6K.

It's a west coast city. My rent + core utilities alone are $1500/month and because there's no rent control, it's likely this will increase another 5% next year, to around $1575/month or nearly $19,000 a year just from rent & utilities. Shockingly, this rent is still competitive in this city. I don't consider this a "forever" thing though, as I won't be here for too long.

Travel is the bigger factor. Partly it's because I'm working farther away from my family and partly because I'm taking more trips to California since it's nearby and fun (hard to resist a $200 round trip to see friends, but add in rental car and hotel and suddenly it's $600).

Out of my 38K there's probably room to trim some based on travel. First I'd have to crunch the numbers to see how much of my travel costs are vital (to visit home & family) vs trips for fun.


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## My Own Advisor

Travel can eat up money for sure, but you gotta live James.

FWIW I figure my wife and I will need about $4,500 after tax per month in retirement (today's costs). The bulk of that money will be for house operating costs (taxes, utilities, some maintenance) and a couple of international trips during the year (~$2,500 combined). The reminder ($2,000) we should be able to eat, put gas into our cars, pay for health & dental insurance, by a newer car every 10 years and have a small stream of money flowing into a contingency fund. I keep a spreadsheet for that stuff and I look at it every few months to see if inflation is running away with things and making that number go up. So far, so good. 

If we don't travel or can't afford to travel (i.e., international trips) I suspect that value drops quite a bit.


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## 1980z28

I think you have room to improve

it is easy set you goal to a value than add 20%

you have an income more than i do ,i am at the 75 to 80k ,i work 4 days a week,spend less than 2 pays per month and save the other 2 plus pays,,when i was your age i saved 3 pays per month


James you will have more than enough to retire,,i am now 56 and will not see the end of my savings,,,and i expect to see 100 plus,,live your life,,,you only get one try,,,enjoy every day


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## james4beach

Giving up some of my travel costs will be very difficult for me -- meaning that I don't want to do that  Travel for me is a big part of my quality of life.

Often I feel "trapped" in the US, especially with all the border hoopla and knowing I'm not a citizen there... I'm really just a visitor.

It gives me a great sense of freedom to be able to zip over to Vancouver or Calgary.

It was different when I lived in southern Ontario and Manitoba. I still did lots of travel, but more like hopping in the car and driving to the lakes and forests, or a trip out to Kingston, Ottawa or something. It always has been a huge part of my leisure and quality of life.

I could try to focus more of my "travel" in Oregon, which might be a good thing to do because it's really a beautiful state and I have barely scratched the surface of all the forests and things to see. This could be a tangible way to keep my travel expenses down.

But I still need to frequently hop over to Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto for the sake of my sanity and knowing I'm not trapped in the US


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## peterk

I never noticed James, are you talking expenses in USD or converting to CAD for our benefit?

1980z28 - I'm confused... Are you advocating cutting expenses with "room to improve", or suggesting the present setup will be adequate for James to be flush with dough at age 100 and he should focus more to "enjoy every day".

Myself I think you're sitting right in the sweet spot of spending for "responsibly maintaining a high quality of life", I'll call it, and not over or under spending. But we've discussed this before at length... Keep up the good work!


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## 1980z28

Both of you guys are in the same boat

You will do well

No need to save so much as to take away from enjoyment of life


Keep doing what you are doing,,life is short,,,for me i got lucky,always had a good job with very low living expense

For 100 year quote that was me speaking that i have enough savings to last until 100 plus more if i last that long


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## james4beach

These are in "whatever currency my salary is in" which currently is USD. Another way to look at it is assuming USD/CAD=1.0 long term.

For example my food costs currently run 370 USD/month, which is remarkably similar to 380 CAD/month I was spending in Ontario just a couple years ago. Same goes for rents ... I'm around 1500 USD/month vs the 1300 CAD/month I was paying.

I don't think it would be correct to convert my current rent to $2037 CAD. I think that the USD/CAD=1.0 comparison is more reasonable. Salary prospects are similar, i.e. I can earn something like 100K USD and also 100K CAD in Canada.


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## Benting

Saving is good, but enjoying life like travelling is more important. Would rather spend a bit more and delay retirement to make up for it. 5 years before my planned retirement, I took extended (3 months) no pay leave every year. I end up working 5 more years. 6 of those 9 years, wife and I travelled all over the world. The other 3 years we stayed home and relax. One thing I regret was we should have taking a more physical demanding trips earlier. Now with old age, we can only go for trips such as cruises.


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## 1980z28

Benting said:


> Saving is good, but enjoying life like travelling is more important. Would rather spend a bit more and delay retirement to make up for it. 5 years before my planned retirement, I took extended (3 months) no pay leave every year. I end up working 5 more years. 6 of those 9 years, wife and I travelled all over the world. The other 3 years we stayed home and relax. One thing I regret was we should have taking a more physical demanding trips earlier. Now with old age, we can only go for trips such as cruises.


nice


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## Benting

NL is my favourite place to visit in Canada. We went there 3 times. Last trip was the summer just past. Although I admit it is kind of pricy. In 3 weeks we spent almost 10k........ broke our yearly travelling budget !


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## 1980z28

Benting said:


> NL is my favourite place to visit in Canada. We went there 3 times. Last trip was the summer just past. Although I admit it is kind of pricy. In 3 weeks we spent almost 10k........ broke our yearly travelling budget !


I will be there in april,,,shoot me an PM,we should not high jack post


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## james4beach

james4beach said:


> I'm changing the statement of my savings goal for 2017.
> 
> My new goal: spend less than $38,000 a year!


_Monthly update:
_
December spending: $2,437
*Total spent in 2016: $37,026*

A good end to 2016, under my 38K maximum. I was able to afford trips to New York City, Vancouver, Toronto, San Francisco, San Diego, and Jamaica (destination wedding).


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## Lost in Space 2

Steve Divi said:


> Awesome savings rate James!
> 
> I try to hit 50% but it's tough with a single income and a family of 5. There are always things that need to be bought.


Interesting a comment over at Quora about how a family of 7 could sustain a 50% saving rate, the guy answered, just make sure your income grows faster than your expenses! His income was around 200.000 US year.


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## Lost in Space 2

Curious did you do a lot of travel hacking?


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## james4beach

I wouldn't say travel hacking, just looking for the best deals on hotels and rental cars. I've posted about my methods in these threads:

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/95529-Priceline
http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/50050-Hotels-through-Hotwire
http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/44529-Tip-for-Enterprise-rental-cars


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## peterk

re: rentals cars. I do the same. If I even have an inkling of a hint of needing a car on some vacation, I book it. Sometimes I have 3-4 enterprise bookings simultaneously. I even make overlapping booking with slightly different date variations if I haven't nailed down my flight itinerary specifically yet, just to keep my options open.


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## Lost in Space 2

Do you buy supplemental insurance theough a third part? Quite popular over here as it's way way cheaper


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## james4beach

I phoned a couple places in the US and got quotes for supplementary third party liability insurance, e.g. through Geico. Because I don't own a car of my own, this turned out to be quite expensive -- it worked out to about the same cost as buying the liability insurance through the car rental agencies.

I use my credit card's insurance for collision/damage insurance, and then buy 3rd party liability insurance through the car rental agency. When renting in Canada I usually skip the liability insurance as Canadians aren't as aggressive with the lawsuits.

When renting in the US, always get the liability insurance for 1M (or make sure you carry insurance that covers you on rental cars). The US is full of personal injury lawyers... you seem them on Fox TV commercials.


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## CrazyEights

J4B, just out of curiosity, sense your now in the US, i imagine that you are using a US based credit card as your primary? or do you still use your CAD ones?


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## james4beach

I use a US based credit card for all my US spending. However since I also have a home in Canada and spend in CAD, I still have CAD credit cards. Big purchases like airfares generally are with my CAD credit cards.


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## james4beach

An update on costs. The landlord is increasing my rent between 6% and 21% this year. The smallest increase, 6%, is if I sign a 13 month lease -- which I don't think I can do. Whether I stay in my current apartment or move, I think my increase might be in the ballpark of 10%.

I am going to start searching for new apartments tomorrow, to get a better feel of my options.

This has really put me in a bad mood. Between the riots happening down the street from me (tear gas & rubber bullets), and facing a 10% hike in my housing costs, it's been one hell of a Friday.


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## james4beach

I can give you yet another reason to prefer living in Canada. Renters rights are very weak in (many) US states, including the one I'm in. The landlord has presented me with some ugly options and an ultimatum to either sign another long term contract, or I will be evicted. A fun Friday surprise.


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## james4beach

I got some useful data from my coworker. He's about my age, also single, and extremely frugal. He lives on about 18K a year. Looking at his data I could identify where our biggest differences are, and it comes down to these:

I spend 14K a year more on housing than he does.
I spend 6K a year more on travel/flights/vacations.

This is very informative and aligns very well with my past analysis against my own history, in this post and this post.

This makes it absolutely conclusive that the two factors that elevate my cost of living are high rent and travel spending. My coworker has a special living situation where he benefits from a family-owned property; not something I can replicate. I'm also unwilling to sacrifice having an apartment to myself, as opposed to sharing rooms/bathrooms/etc. In this city, I probably don't have much room to cut my horrendously high housing costs.


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## Lost in Space 2

Over all, outside of healthcare do you find the cost of living to be lower there? 



> I spend 14K a year more on housing than he does.
> I spend 6K a year more on travel/flights/vacations.


As an aside this is something I often mention to people, yes the latte factor matters but not as much as your base costs. Recently bought a gently used car and one of the things I compared was the cost of insurance and the difference between a Rav 4 and a Ford C-Max (I live in Germany) was nearly a 1000€ a year!!!!! Needless to say I went with the C-max

My wife works from home so we recently downsized back into one of our rental units and it cut our costs nearly in half. Plus we're paying a mortgage rather than rent, but that's a different issue


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## My Own Advisor

Wow, living on $18k per year is very frugal....

James, I would much rather live my life (like you are...) than simply save and save and save - little travel, little experiences. It's all about balance no?

I recall from your first post...."My take-home pay is $5,900/month, and I've tried to adjust for tax refunds, dual-country taxes, etc
Goal: save $3,000/month, spend $2,900/month to achieve a 51% savings rate."

That's a very, very good savings rate.


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## james4beach

Lost in Space 2 said:


> Over all, outside of healthcare do you find the cost of living to be lower there?


No, I've found cost of living in Portland OR to be higher than anywhere in Canada that I've lived before. But it's a tough comparison to make, because I'm on the west coast US, and similarly great cities like Vancouver have it just as bad as we have it here.



My Own Advisor said:


> James, I would much rather live my life (like you are...) than simply save and save and save - little travel, little experiences. It's all about balance no?


I agree, and that's what my parents have encouraged me to do. I'm very happy with my travel and vacation costs. After one of these trips, I usually say to myself: that just cost me $X,000. And it was worth every penny 

At the moment I'm just a bit upset that my base cost of living, the rent, is going up so much year-on-year. Over the last couple of days I have researched prices throughout the city and am finding these higher prices everywhere. The landlord was not screwing me. The reality is that rents in Portland have gone up about 10% vs last year -- ouch.

This has me asking questions like, should I downsize to a bachelor apartment? The potential savings is 2K a year. Is a separate bedroom worth 2K a year? Questions I'm asking myself.


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## james4beach

_Monthly update:_

January spending: $2,362
Total spent in last 12 months: $36,534


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## Lost in Space 2

james4beach said:


> No, I've found cost of living in Portland OR to be higher than anywhere in Canada that I've lived before. But it's a tough comparison to make, because I'm on the west coast US, and similarly great cities like Vancouver have it just as bad as we have it here.


Thanks and I have to admit I'm kind of shocked at this. Cross border shopping is such a Canadian thing every seems cheaper in the US. Along those lines I've been gone nearly 20 years and I just die at the prices in Canada everything seems so expensive. A loaf of Zehrs white was 69 cents when I left! Inflation 2-4% a year really really compounds. I live in Europe and they've been dealing with borderline deflation. Recently the price of milk dropped 30% across the board in Germany. An agreement between farmers and supermarket chains increased the price but but for the most part inflation is very low here.


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## james4beach

It's possible that if you focus purely on discretionary/luxury consumer spending, clothes, technologies, etc., then goods in the US are cheaper than in Canada. But that's not the nature of my spending. Focusing on the basics, like cost of living (especially rent), utilities, and services ... my costs in downtown Portland are absolutely higher than living in downtown Toronto.

There are definitely things in the US that are much cheaper. Alcohol and junk food is extremely cheap here. I enjoy my new low cost of wine, but this such a small part of my overall spending. Good quality food costs about the same as in Canada and my overall grocery spending is about identical to my records from Vancouver, Winnipeg, and Toronto.


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## james4beach

PS, I have spent the last 3 weekends (and several weekdays) looking for a new apartment. Tons and tons of hours of work. Unfortunately I have not yet found a better and more comfortable one than my current apartment, so it looks unlikely I will be able to reduce my housing costs.


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## james4beach

Taking a final stab this weekend at looking for a new apartment. So far everything I've seen would _increase_ my cost of living (it appears my current one is one of the best deals in town). I am considering downsizing from a 1 bedroom apartment to a studio.


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## NorthKC

You should stick with the 1 bedroom. There is something to be said to have your bedroom "separated" from your living space as I found it easier to sleep knowing that it was not part of my living space but that's just me. If it's cheaper than anything else, just stick with what you have. In addition, most studio tend to have a much smaller kitchen which may frustrate you as well.


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## Jerm

Depending on the status of your dating life a 1BR can have advantages over a studio apartment as well.


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## james4beach

Thanks for these thoughts, very helpful. The good news about the studio I looked at today is that they have a separate bed area. It doesn't have a door on it, but it is a separate area that is specifically for the bed... there's even a concrete wall dividing it from the rest of the unit. I like that it's not part of the living room.

The main downside is that I'd be losing about 15% of my current square footage.

The dating situation should not be taken lightly -- I agree. I'm single and go on dates.


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## Lost in Space 2

My Own Adviser posted a question household expenses and someone posted about living in AZ and they said it was way cheaper than Canada, that's probably closer to what most people experience.


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## james4beach

The one tentative apartment I found has been snatched up as I "slept on it". Some of these apartments are only on the market for 1 or 2 days. Oh well, guess I won't be moving. What a ridiculous supply/demand imbalance.


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## james4beach

_Monthly update:_

February spending: $2,218
Total spent in last 12 months: $36,133

I discovered last month that if you're working very hard, constantly exhausted, and get one cold after the other, ... you spend very little money. Not my idea of fun! At least I didn't spend much money.


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## Lost in Space 2

Edited:

I was asking what the breakdown of your spending was, but I checked and you posted that on the first page. I've been in our place for going on 6 months and getting an idea of our costs and funny enough they come about about the same (in Euros). Also the biggest determiner is the one I have the least control, dog and dental/medical. A root canal plus issues with the dog meant I'm out nearly 800€ this month.


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## james4beach

Let me share my recent adventures in looking for a new apartment. Originally my hope was to reduce my cost of living but preserve amenities that I really like. This has turned out to be impossible (if I want to have a 1 bedroom apartment and a building with good access to public transit).

First I spent about a month looking at units around the city and couldn't find an option I liked. Then I found one suitable option within my existing apartment building. The price was good. Ready to move, I contacted the management of the building and said that I'd like to start the process.

In response, they phoned me with their "updated price" and said they decided the unit will have hardwood floors installed. The new price is $157/month more than their original price. It changed over one day.

So there we go... I will not be moving. Apparently my current apartment is one of the best deals in the city. At least I know it's priced fairly, and you can't say I didn't try 

Good news, though, is that I just got a 5% raise at work.


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## james4beach

Clarifying, my existing rent went up 5%, and then I got a 5% pay raise. I appreciate that my employer is paying me fair wages.


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## james4beach

_Monthly update:_

March spending: $2,687
Total spent in last 12 months: $36,179

Annual expenses are hovering at just over 36 K. My target is to keep spending under 38 K (reminder, I'm single).


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## james4beach

_Monthly update:_

April spending: $3,382
Total spent in last 12 months: $37,194

Expenses creeping up a bit, but still under the 38 K target. The main cause for this jump is my tax/accounting fees were incurred a month earlier than usual. And the trend in those is looking good. Tax & investment advice cost me $900 in 2015, $800 in 2016, and down to $300 this year! I decided to prepare both countries' tax returns myself and only pay the accountant to review them. I just can't afford to have them prepare filings, and it's still a lot of work for me. Last year, they made many mistakes and I was scrambling to fix them last minute.

For those who think $300 sounds really high for someone to not even prepare your returns, I require an expert who is certified in both US & Canada. They also check the current laws and regulations and advise me, including on investments that are dual-country compatible. They previously caught several errors I was about to make and have helped me structure things to be dual country compatible -- I feel this person is worth the $300 for advice & review.

This year they actually caught a bug in the output from my tax software, which I promptly had the vendor resolve. The T2209 Foreign Tax Credit had some buggy behaviour. I also keep copies of email exchanges with them as evidence in case of a CRA or IRS dispute, that I tried my best to do what's proper and received this advice from a professional.


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## My Own Advisor

$300 is a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things. Money well spent. Trivial cost when you consider what % that is of your total spending.


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## james4beach

_Monthly updates:_

May spending: $3,756
June spending: $2,751
Total spent in last 12 months: $35,881

I'm still under my max 38 K annual budget, and here's a chart of my spending. The most important figure is the red line. Luckily, I'm not spending any more than I did two years ago, despite rent being 9% higher.


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## james4beach

_Monthly update:_

July spending: $3,412
Total spent in last 12 months: $35,646

Spending is still holding steady, and under 38 K budget. It's nice to see I'm able to spend lots of money on trips (Las Vegas, Rhode Island, California so far this year) and still stay within budget.


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## peterk

Very consistent James. I made the same chart out of curiosity, for comparison. My spending is a lot more erratic than yours, and is trending upwards!


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## james4beach

_Monthly update:_

August spending: $3,057
Total spent in last 12 months: $34,286

Spending is a bit lower than a year ago, now well under 38 K budget. This will be balanced out by what I expect will be higher than usual spending this winter, since I am planning a trip to Hawaii.


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## james4beach

I have seriously dropped the ball on these updates. I am still tracking the data, but need to look at a few months of totals. After all my taxes are done, I will crunch the numbers and post an update here.

My plan is still 38 K budget for maximum spending. It will be interesting to see if my recent Caribbean vacation pushed me over budget.


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## My Own Advisor

peterk said:


> Very consistent James. I made the same chart out of curiosity, for comparison. My spending is a lot more erratic than yours, and is trending upwards!
> 
> View attachment 15993


Same. We're all over the place although we did already manage to max out TFSAs for 2018 already - so that was a great milestone for us. Well done James!


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## james4beach

An update after several months of neglecting this. My annual expense budget (maximum) is 38 K. In the chart, the red line -- trailing 12 months -- is the most important figure. It looks pretty steady over these years. My 12 month spending to April was $37,150 so I'm still awfully close to my budget and must continue to be vigilant.


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## james4beach

Some "big picture" thoughts: I do all of this because I think it's a good exercise. Tracking the monthly numbers, looking at them, and _comparing spending to the target_ helps me keep the numbers in check. When I see I'm too high, I change behaviours. But I do all of this to flex this muscle of budgeting and keeping a lid on my spending patterns.

I also keep reminding myself that life will change and that I shouldn't get "hooked" on these numbers. The moment I move, numbers will change. If I move to a higher cost of living center, everything changes. If I buy a house, everything changes. If I have a child or grow a family, it changes. If my parents fall into poor health and need more help, it changes. A whole bunch of my friends and coworkers are now having kids and I'm learning some important realities by listening to their stories.

In other words, I don't expect to always keep my spending at these particular levels and I'm mentally preparing myself to detach from any expectations of spending level. I still think the tracking & budgeting exercise will be incredibly useful, so that's a life-long skill.

_I think_ this way of thinking will protect me from the disappointment of seeing "all my best laid plans fall apart" (spending radically changes, savings are blown away). But I am very interested in what other people think, especially those of you who have gone through those different stages such as renting to home ownership, and single to family & kids. Am I thinking about this the right way? Or is better to actually be more committed and more insistent about where I expect to keep my spending levels long term?


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## peterk

Well, you seem to have a good grasp of the situation and possibilities and are being realistic about how much control you have over things.

I still object to the notion that young people being frugal is particularly important in the grand scheme of a successful life. Whether you spend 38k or 42k/year has almost no bearing on your success. Picking the right education and career, working hard and smart and effectively so that you are paid highly, picking the right spouse, picking the right city to live in, investing wisely... These are the important things. 

Describing frugality as "a life-long skill" is not fair to actual skills. Anyone can choose to not spend money, and _if_ it is a skill, which it isn't, you can always learn it when you're old and almost retired. Consider it a new challenge for the second half of life.

I suspect that some hard working successful people who are also frugal and have a big bank account wake up one day in their 40s or 50s and regret being so responsible in their 20s and 30s. What is working for a couple more years in your middle/old age compared to having 20 years of a well-lived life in your youth?

Anyways, I'm off to dinner at the newest restaurant in town now.


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## james4beach

Great thoughts peterk! Very interesting. Now I suddenly am thinking, yes, I should book that trip to Las Vegas I was thinking of doing this month.


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## peterk

Ha - Well if there's anywhere in the world that makes you feel like you're being _too_ responsible with your money/life, it's Vegas. So watch out!


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## milhouse

james4beach said:


> Some "big picture" thoughts: I do all of this because I think it's a good exercise. Tracking the monthly numbers, looking at them, and _comparing spending to the target_ helps me keep the numbers in check. When I see I'm too high, I change behaviours. But I do all of this to flex this muscle of budgeting and keeping a lid on my spending patterns.
> 
> I also keep reminding myself that life will change and that I shouldn't get "hooked" on these numbers. The moment I move, numbers will change. If I move to a higher cost of living center, everything changes. If I buy a house, everything changes. If I have a child or grow a family, it changes. If my parents fall into poor health and need more help, it changes. A whole bunch of my friends and coworkers are now having kids and I'm learning some important realities by listening to their stories.
> 
> In other words, I don't expect to always keep my spending at these particular levels and I'm mentally preparing myself to detach from any expectations of spending level. I still think the tracking & budgeting exercise will be incredibly useful, so that's a life-long skill.
> 
> _I think_ this way of thinking will protect me from the disappointment of seeing "all my best laid plans fall apart" (spending radically changes, savings are blown away). But I am very interested in what other people think, especially those of you who have gone through those different stages such as renting to home ownership, and single to family & kids. Am I thinking about this the right way? Or is better to actually be more committed and more insistent about where I expect to keep my spending levels long term?


What you're kind of describing IMO is an iterative approach to planning. 
You have an overall roadmap to reach your goal/goals but you break the planning into smaller chucks. There's less value to planning to a detailed degree for activities/goals farther out since there will likely be changes that throws curves into your roadmap. Instead you focus your detailed planning on your near term activities and review and adjust. Regularly tracking your spend against budget is basically part of that PDCA cycle of reviewing and adjusting.


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## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> She
> *I also keep reminding myself that life will change and that I shouldn't get "hooked" on these numbers. *The moment I move, numbers will change. If I move to a higher cost of living center, everything changes. If I buy a house, everything changes. If I have a child or grow a family, it changes. If my parents fall into poor health and need more help, it changes. A whole bunch of my friends and coworkers are now having kids and I'm learning some important realities by listening to their stories.
> 
> 
> _I think_ this way of thinking will *protect me from the disappointment of seeing "all my best laid plans fall apart" (spending radically changes, savings are blown away)*. But I am very interested in what other people think, especially those of you who have gone through those different stages such as renting to home ownership, and single to family & kids. Am I thinking about this the right way? Or is better to actually be more committed and more insistent about where I expect to keep my spending levels long term?


I think you have it right. Ask yourself what is that number really? It is a metrics to help steer on the path for your life and what brings you the most fulfillment. The number itself does not bring the joy. Your priorities and what you value on life is what is important. think of the spend amount as a tool to get there. If you stick to your spend levels but are passing up opportunites and experiences, are you any better off. 

I could have been much more frugal in my 20s, but I had great experiences. I could have chosen not to have kids and would have been able to retire in my forties. Yet, I have very few regrets and don’t feel like I missed out much and still managed to have a healthy Net worth. I could have a heck of a lot more money, but not nearly be this rich in life. You have ask yourself what is it that is driving you save. I think your view of using the numbers to guide is great, and even better that you recognize that as you hit different stages in life, your priorities will change.


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## james4beach

Thanks for these thoughts milhouse & Plugging Along


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## james4beach

Trying to balancing my budgeting without sacrificing fun ... booked a trip to Las Vegas this month!


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## james4beach

Monthly spending update
May: $3,531
June: $2,568
July: $3,382
Total spent in last 12 months: $36,713

My annual budget is 38 K so I continue to be within budget. That trip to Las Vegas was worth it! (Did not gamble at all by the way). Since then I also did a bit of travelling around BC and spent a couple days in Vancouver.

I calculate that inflation where I live is running at 3% which is equal to the published US inflation rate.


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## Plugging Along

Glad to hear you are enjoying yourself but still managing to stay with in budget.

We just came back from a Latin America trip. We didn’t blew our budget because we didn’t have one (we don’t. When we travel) I have to say, I never regret the experiences that travel and family time brings.


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## james4beach

Thanks, Plugging Along. Same as you... I never regret travel experience, or visiting my family. I had a fun trip to Toronto recently just to catch up with friends, see someone's new baby, and enjoy the city. Toronto can be so fun in the summer!

Monthly spending update
August: $2,759
September: $3,188
Total spent in last 12 months: $36,144

Still within budget (annual 38 K) at the moment. I'm going to try planning a trip to Hawaii; last year I tried to, but it was too last minute and costs were too high. Also I can't really escape from work obligations unless I plan vacations well in advance. As I re-evaluate what's really important in life, I've come to the realization that I've been working too much. Some really nice travel and time off will take priority over work and income in the near future, and I'm going to deemphasize savings.

I'm also within a hair, maybe a few weeks, of reaching a big personal net worth milestone. Once I cross that threshold, I'll feel less pressure to save aggressively because I will have reached a level that I've worked for years to achieve. It's exciting!


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## james4beach

I travelled a lot in the last few months, finally going to Hawaii, and then also to Australia! It was great escaping from the cold winter and seeing so much sun and ocean during these rough months. I'm seeing that I benefit a lot from escaping winter and getting to the sun & heat: I don't get sick (hardly got sick at all this winter), I'm in better physical shape, getting more exercise, _much_ happier. I'm also proud of myself for finally prioritizing leisure activities over work, because until now, I've always let work take priority over fun & health.

Spending update
Total spent in last 6 months: $22,209
Total spent in last 12 months: $40,719

I've now exceeded my budget due to travel. This was deliberate, as I had some surprise pay increases at work and hit some personal milestones, so I decided it was a good opportunity for long distance travels. The numbers will come down over the next few months and I intend to get back under the 38K budget.


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## hfp75

J4B I don’t see your overall net worth ?

250, 500k, million, couple million ?


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## james4beach

I haven't shared net worth in any threads, as I like keeping it private. It's a healthy amount for someone my age, pretty typical of an engineer in his mid 30s who's done well with investments.


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## scorpion_ca

Any specific reason that you don't share your NW since it's online and nobody knows nobody?


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## james4beach

scorpion_ca said:


> Any specific reason that you don't share your NW since it's online and nobody knows nobody?


I've pointed a few friends at this board over the years, so there are people out there who know who I am (including a coworker). It would have been nice to stay anonymous, but it's too late now.


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## james4beach

Good news on the expenses front. My rent is only going up 2% this year, the smallest annual increase since I've moved in. My employment income went up 10% from a year ago, so this is currently a good situation.


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## peterk

Nice!


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## james4beach

This post describes my philosophy around constraining my spending

https://www.canadianmoneyforum.com/...-saved-by-37?p=2033274&viewfull=1#post2033274


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## lonewolf :)

nobleea said:


> Weird. I'd say adding a wife to the mix makes it easier to save 50% of salary. Income goes up, but expenses go up only marginally.
> Kids can throw a wrench in the mix, but generally not until they reach school age. Babies and toddlers are cheap.


 The odds are against you to save when you get married. Now you need to have 2 savers instead of one. It does not matter if more money comes in plus with the sharing of expenses some people spend everything plus some..

There is a high percentage of people that spend as much or more then they make regardless of how much money they are making. So if one is a spender & the other a saver the spender will spend the savers money that they save. Before there was a saver & a spender now the spender stopped the saver from being a saver.


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## james4beach

lonewolf :) said:


> There is a high percentage of people that spend as much or more then they make regardless of how much money they are making. So if one is a spender & the other a saver *the spender will spend the savers money* that they save. Before there was a saver & a spender now the spender stopped the saver from being a saver.


You're absolutely right lonewolf


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## james4beach

Spending update
Total spent in last 6 months: $20,478
Total spent in last 12 months: $42,030

A year ago, the trailing 12 month spending was 36,700 (under budget) and currently it's at 42,030 (over budget). The increase is entirely due to some extra travel. This was part of a plan to have less indoor office/computer time and do more outdoors trips including big hikes, surfing, and cycling -- trying to energize myself and bring up my level of outdoors activity. Admittedly I could have done this cheaper but there's something about these trips to beautiful places that seems to have really kicked me into high gear.

There have been weeks where I've sometimes hiked 10-15 hours in a week, and other weeks where I've cycled for 8-12 hours.

I think it's been working. I've been steadily losing weight, now my lowest weight and probably the leanest I've been in 12 years. So although I'm running over my 38K budget, it's safe to say that my recent outdoors lifestyle is fun, and improving my health... a good long term investment.

I'm now focusing on trying to get back under budget without sacrificing the activity. The next few months may get tricky as I monitor my spending, and there are some upcoming (smallish) moving expenses. I also really want to do a trip to the Rockies this fall for some more exploring & hiking, so I'm debating that in context of this budgeting.

As a first step, I'm trying to get back under 40K.


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## james4beach

Spending update
Total spent in last 6 months: $18,633
Total spent in last 12 months: $40,303

An improvement, but still too high. First I'll try to push this under 40K, and then under the 38K budget.

This is now approaching 3 years at the 38K budget level. I'm fighting against inflation (since I haven't raised that number) but for now, I'm going to keep driving towards the same number. It seems feasible, and I like having some pressure (even though it's completely arbitrary) to reduce spending.


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## james4beach

Spending update
Total spent in last 6 months: $17,285
*Total spent in last 12 months: $39,494*

This is going in the right direction. I'm now back under 40K, but still trying to get below the 38K budget. I'm almost there. Some of my highest spending months over the last year are about to 'roll off' this trailing 12 month calculation.


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## james4beach

Spending update
Total spent in last 6 months: $15,475
*Total spent in last 12 months: $33,885*

Now successfully under budget for the trailing 12 months; success! It's nice to see that after going over budget, I can get back under. I'm going to stick with the same 38K expense target for 2020 as it seems that inflation still has not forced me higher.


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## john.cray

james4beach said:


> Spending update
> Total spent in last 6 months: $15,475
> *Total spent in last 12 months: $33,885*
> 
> Now successfully under budget for the trailing 12 months; success! It's nice to see that after going over budget, I can get back under. I'm going to stick with the same 38K expense target for 2020 as it seems that inflation still has not forced me higher.


Good job and congratulations for being disciplined.
I see you moved to Manitoba from the US. Just curious if you want to speak about how that changed your spending, was it a positive?


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## james4beach

john.cray said:


> Good job and congratulations for being disciplined.
> I see you moved to Manitoba from the US. Just curious if you want to speak about how that changed your spending, was it a positive?


Thanks. I had been a MB resident for some time but recently left my apartment in the US. This has been a gradual change over 2018, 2019, 2020.

The moving activities have been a mixed bag on expenses. The story really isn't done, because I'm planning on moving to BC within a few months. At the moment I'm just rolling with the uncertainty but keeping an eye on trailing 12 month expenses.


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## john.cray

james4beach said:


> Thanks. The story really isn't done, because I'm planning on moving to BC within a few months..


Where in BC ? It would be interesting to see how the expenses change if you settle in the lower mainland.
I don't remember if you had a family, and you probably already know this, but rent and daycare here are crazy.


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## james4beach

john.cray said:


> Where in BC ? It would be interesting to see how the expenses change if you settle in the lower mainland.
> I don't remember if you had a family, and you probably already know this, but rent and daycare here are crazy.


I'm thinking of Vancouver (the city). I'm getting conflicting data on rents. I surveyed downtown apartment rent back in the summer and found it was affordable, comparable to what I paid in Portland, a bit further down the coast. By 'affordable' I mean that I should still be able to have the same quality of life I've had for the last few years at similar cost. I'm single.

However I was flying through Vancouver just last week and talked with a couple people in the airport. They gave me rent numbers far higher than what my earlier search showed, which makes me concerned that rents have shot up like crazy in just a few months (??)

I'm now hoping that the Hong Kong unrest stabilizes, because otherwise I fear there could be an exodus from HK into Vancouver.


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## nathan79

You'd be looking at $1700-1800 for something decent, but it's still going to be very basic for that price. Nicer 1-bedrooms go for $2000 and up.


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## james4beach

nathan79 said:


> You'd be looking at $1700-1800 for something decent, but it's still going to be very basic for that price. Nicer 1-bedrooms go for $2000 and up.


Is the 1700-1800 for a downtown 1 bedroom? That's similar to what I found when I last did a search.


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## john.cray

james4beach said:


> Is the 1700-1800 for a downtown 1 bedroom? That's similar to what I found when I last did a search.


There are different sizes, ages and level of equipment so there's quite a variance. $1800 sounds reasonable but I would rather think about something like $2000 for a 650 sqf. 1 bedroom apartment in downtown Vancouver. Going further east in Burnaby that same money will probably rent you a much bigger/newer place.


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## james4beach

Thanks, good points. I pulled up the floor plan on my last apartment, which was 571 sq ft and this was actually too much space for me. I'm not after big spaces.


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## james4beach

Still thinking Vancouver and mentally preparing myself for a likely higher cost of living than Manitoba (basically a guarantee). My current trailing 12 month spending is running around 34K as posted earlier. This is still under budget so I have a bit of "room" to absorb higher spending upon moving to Vancouver. I also have the option of doing an inflation adjustment to my existing budget amount. I suspect I can handle the Vancouver cost of living.

I guess I'll only know how this shapes up with time. I've moved long distances quite a few times and patterns get disrupted, so it's hard to anticipate what the new "pattern" might look like.

Can anyone suggest other Canadian cities where I can live centrally and wouldn't need a car? I prefer walking and bicycling just about everywhere, for daily errands such as groceries.

The obvious cities that come to mind are Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal.


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## peterk

Ability to earn income at that location (you're doing some intermittent projects and consulting now?) and lifestyle characteristics at those locations should be the only considerations. It costs what it costs.

And remember that accepting a higher cost of living doesn't mean you are committing your entire life and future cashflow to that amount/location. You can always change your mind later and move to a low costs location to live off of investments. In the mean time, if being in Vancouver means you spend an extra 100k over the next 5 years, but make an extra 200k after tax in those 5 years, then it was the right choice.


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## james4beach

True, this doesn't mean signing up for large expenses for life. That's a good point.

You're right, business opportunity and lifestyle are the only considerations. Yes I'm doing intermittent projects, currently remote, and I expect there will be a business advantage being in Vancouver. Lifestyle and general quality of life is a major consideration. For several years I really enjoyed the lifestyle of Washington & Oregon and I'm thinking that Vancouver (or really anywhere in BC) might be similar.


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## james4beach

Might as well post some updates. Cost of living as gone way down, mainly because I was quarantined at home after some travel. I basically spent no money at all in March.

The original plan was to move to BC around now, and this obviously isn't happening at the moment.

I'm still continuing with my small business. This is actually going pretty well, though I will have to move to either BC or ON for business reasons and proximity to some key people. I can make it work in the current arrangement (stuck in MB) though it is not ideal.

I'm about to send an invoice for March work, but I'm not sure the client will pay it. We'll see. In any case, I have a strong cash cushion as I always expected my income to be unreliable. I don't anticipate any need to tap into my investments, even if my business grinds to a halt.


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## james4beach

I'm starting to wish I had not tried so hard to 'constrain spending'. I haven't looked at my numbers lately, but my monthly & annual numbers have crashed.

My business income has also suffered, but I did file and receive CERB, so that was nice. Really does smooth the income; great job by government rolling out such a rapid solution and getting cheques (direct deposit) out so fast.

Can anyone guess at how long it might be before I can move to BC? Do you think I'm looking at 3 more months, or maybe 6? Or maybe it's just too early to tell.


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## andrewf

Pretty sure you could just rent a uhaul and move right now. But, you may want to wait a bit longer practically speaking if you want to search for housing, get services connected, etc. Maybe June or July...


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## cainvest

To early to tell ... I'd wait until the 2m distance rule has been lifted.


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## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Pretty sure you could just rent a uhaul and move right now. But, you may want to wait a bit longer practically speaking if you want to search for housing, get services connected, etc. Maybe June or July...


I thought some provincial borders were closed? But yes, obviously I will need to visit apartment buildings, find housing, and need various services. I will have to wait.

Plus I feel that MB is a relatively safe place to be right now. Sparse, small population and in the middle of nowhere -- perfect.


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## james4beach

I'm a bit embarrassed to post my spending numbers. It's shocking how much my spending has crashed... kind of reflects why the entire economy is contracting, actually. I will eventually post some numbers here, but I'm not sure how useful they are, given that this is (hopefully) a "once in a life time" scenario.

My lifestyle was travel-heavy, so it's a particularly large spending contraction for me.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> I'm a bit embarrassed to post my spending numbers. It's shocking how much my spending has crashed... kind of reflects why the entire economy is contracting, actually. I will eventually post some numbers here, but I'm not sure how useful they are, given that this is (hopefully) a "once in a life time" scenario.
> 
> My lifestyle was travel-heavy, so it's a particularly large spending contraction for me.


I normally don't track my spending very tightly (that's just me) but I have found it helpful to compare these odd times with my regular spending. I find something the abnormalities provide a different insight.


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## james4beach

Thinking a few weeks/months into the future... I'm still thinking of moving to Vancouver (city). I was in the process of doing this when the outbreak hit. But I'm wondering if COVID-19 is a reason to change that plan?

Looking at BC's data on their epidemic curve, it still looks worrying to me (still actively spreading) but not as bad as Ontario. I'm in an age group (30-40) with a reasonably low rate of hospitalization and zero deaths so far in BC.

Moving anywhere new requires that I restock my apartment, get my hands on essentials & furniture. I would also need services connected and would inevitably have to visit/interact with various places. This is the main reason I completely halted my moving plan.


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## milhouse

While I suppose one can characterize that it's still _actively_ spreading, I wouldn't necessarily say it's widely spreading in the metro Vancouver area as spikes in numbers are primarily from known community outbreaks: care homes due to workers working multiple locations, inmates and guards at a prison, and two poultry processing plants where a few staff worked at both, in addition to what seems to be limited spot infections like a worker at superstore, etc. I would be very interested in seeing some kind of diagram linking the infections between individuals to understand the spread better. 

Our spending has been impacted as well but it's pretty obvious with less spend on eating out, transport, entertainment, and travel but with groceries and utilities going up.


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## james4beach

milhouse: thanks very much for that info. Can you point me to a good resource for monitoring the situation, particularly in metro or central Vancouver?

I'm going to do some analysis of my spending at the end of this month. It's not just my travel and entertainment that's gone down. Due to the timing of all this, I've been living together with some family members and pay no rent. This was supposed to be temporary. So my housing costs are ridiculously low at the moment.

I don't enjoy this living situation. It's become difficult to get my work done as I am used to living alone, but now I am constantly being interrupted by family members. I normally cook, but now I don't have a kitchen (too many people crowded in there). And my parents are close by, and love seeing me, so I get non-stop requests to help them with everything. And they get _angry_ if I don't give them technical help, shopping help, emotional help.

Basically I have to move somewhere farther, out of this city. Just about anywhere, actually. I make around $200/hr, and it drives me nuts that I can't just sit somewhere quiet and get my work done without some kind of interruption, or family members trying to guilt me into doing something for them, or pouting because I don't want to drop my work and come to their aid.

Anyway, I realize many people have found themselves in similar situations due to the lockdown (for example with all the kids at home!) but I'm just trying to say that I am looking forward to when I have my own place again, even with big increase in expenses.


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## milhouse

We're just watching the daily briefings from the BC provincial health officer or highlights via tv (Global BC news, their website, or their youtube channel) and getting summarized info from the Global BC (@GlobalBC) twitter feed who has a reporter at the briefings (@richardzussman) and Daily Hive's (@DailyHiveVan) reporter (@farhanmohamed). They're doing a good job noting the changes in numbers: new cases, hospitalizations, ICU cases, recovery, and deaths, and addeing good context around the numbers. It's not metro Vancouver focused but there's obviously lot of discussion around Vancouver due to the hotspots. 

I totally understand your desire for more independent/remote.


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## nathan79

I wouldn't be in a hurry... if you can wait a couple months there should be some good deals coming up in the rental market. With the collapse of AirBNB, many of those units are making their way onto the long term rental market. I don't think panic has quite set in yet, but tourism isn't coming back anytime soon, so those property owners will be desperate for income after a few months.


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## james4beach

Spending update
*Total spent in last 12 months: $24,911*

My annual expense budget is 38K and I'm spending much less. March was my lowest expense month ever recorded, at a total of $388 spent. _INSANE_. This is because I'm now living in a family member's house and not paying rent. I was on an all-inclusive trip ($0 cost of food), then ended up in quarantine.

April was a more typical COVID-19 / lockdown month, and my expenses were still 69% below typical. It illustrates the sharp economic crash that results from all of this. For example, I was about to buy an expensive laptop, but deferred that purchase. Since I'm not ever leaving the house or travelling, I don't need a laptop right now.

The numbers are obviously crazy right now, but I am sticking with my original 38K annual budget. I've used the same target for 5 years now, so it's nice to see that inflation isn't hurting me.


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## peterk

$24000/ yr? Sheesh! I've already spent $21000 in the first 4 months of 2020...


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## james4beach

peterk said:


> $24000/ yr? Sheesh! I've already spent $21000 in the first 4 months of 2020...


Well but my current $25,000 expense level is not sustainable and it's going to bounce back. I can't live like this.


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## nathan79

peterk said:


> $24000/ yr? Sheesh! I've already spent $21000 in the first 4 months of 2020...


Keep in mind James pays NO rent...

I'm not sure if he has a car, but if not that could easily be another $500/mo (approx.) savings.

With no rent and low (or no) car expenses, you can live incredibly well on 2k per month.


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## Money172375

peterk said:


> $24000/ yr? Sheesh! I've already spent $21000 in the first 4 months of 2020...


wow...on what? Care to break it down by category?


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## james4beach

nathan79 said:


> Keep in mind James pays NO rent...
> 
> I'm not sure if he has a car, but if not that could easily be another $500/mo (approx.) savings.


Right, currently there is no rent, but I will pay it again in the future. So my current trailing 12 month figure is abnormally low and it can't stay that low.

I use a family member's car, and pay for occasional maintenance on it. I also sometimes use rental cars. But I am a "light" car user, mostly walking and biking. My vehicle expense are $100 to $150/month on average.


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## james4beach

I'm starting to worry about food / grocery inflation. Prices are now elevated and I don't see any reason they would go down later.


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## milhouse

In the 2020 outlooks I read at the end of last year, notable food inflation was already being forecast for 2020. I was seeing it in our grocery bills at the start of the year and even more so now combined with less sales and promos. 
That said, I'm curious what pricing we'll see with spot prawns this year as a bit of an indicator with global trade likely impacted and restaurants closed. The season normally starting in May but got pushed out to June.


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## james4beach

Posting this to remind _my future self_ why I am trekking through COVID-infested airports and cities to move. Moving in the current environment is probably going to be a hassle, and might be dangerous. I'm still going to have to do it.

I mentioned before that I'm running my small business while living in close proximity (same physical building) as family members. I'm getting frequent interruptions and requests for help from seniors; this reduces my income and interrupts my patterns. The worst is when it interrupts technical or planning work, since I have to get into a certain head-space.

The problem is not really the requests for help. The problem is that they are *demands for immediate help*. One particular senior is the real problem.

This evening I got "in the zone" for getting some work done. I was so happy to tackle the work, but then, the request from a senior came in... could I help them with some home maintenance task. It's something that's been on their to-do list for months, so I know it's not urgent.

I said that I'm busy, and this isn't a good time. I told them that I have certain work patterns, and this is currently my prime time for working, so I really want to work.

But the senior doesn't give a s*** about that! I started getting the aggression... sarcastic comments about how my time is so valuable (actually it is, billable at $200/hr), followed by pouting. This senior has also previously yelled at me and threatened me, also while I was trying to work.

So instead of doing my work, at the optimal time for me, I came to the senior's assistance instead. He totally destroyed my mood, stopped my momentum, and got me out of the zone. Once again, the senior imposed his schedule and demands on me. And there is never any apology such as "sorry you had to stop working to come help me."

I realize that it's similar for people who have children at home; kids are needy, and interrupt you constantly. I sympathize. At least children can be taught better behaviours and will grow out of that behaviour.


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## james4beach

I'd like to share this warning with anyone under age 60:

Beware generous offers or invitations from seniors; they may come with "strings attached". I got into this situation when retired family members, who had spare/unused real estate, offered to let me stay there. I wouldn't pay rent, but would help with occasional things, fix things in the property they can't take care of. Ok, sounded fine, at least for a few months. I don't mind helping out with shopping and fixing things.

It turned out to be a very bad deal for me. The "strings" are the things I described earlier, like not being allowed to work, and being coerced into doing tasks for them whether or not it's convenient for me. On top of it, I'm berated by one of the retirees when I don't do what he wants. This absolutely ruins my mood, productivity, and quality of life.

If I could do it again, I would avoid getting into a situation where someone else has expectations of what I'll do for them, and has leverage over me.


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## Money172375

I feel this is sometimes cultural. Not commenting if right or wrong, but we were raised to believe that nothing was free. If someone offered a cottage for a weekend or a week, or to come and stay in Florida....we would never leave them without offering something....usually cash....and could be up to 50% of the fair value of the “rental”. I’ve referred a friend to a lawyer who did some pro-bono estate work. The fired didn’t offer anything....i was a little embarrassed. A bottle of wine would have been a nice gesture. We often have large gatherings at our home in the summer where people stay a night or two. Some will bring a couple bottle bottle of booze, or a case of beer and some meat. Others show up with nothing.

not commenting either way...i find it can be excessive either way sometimes....but you’re correct.....almost nothing is “free”


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## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> I'd like to share this warning with anyone under age 60:
> 
> Beware generous offers or invitations from seniors; they may come with "strings attached". I got into this situation when retired family members, who had spare/unused real estate, offered to let me stay there. I wouldn't pay rent, but would help with occasional things, fix things in the property they can't take care of. Ok, sounded fine, at least for a few months. I don't mind helping out with shopping and fixing things.
> 
> It turned out to be a very bad deal for me. The "strings" are the things I described earlier, like not being allowed to work, and being coerced into doing tasks for them whether or not it's convenient for me. On top of it, I'm berated by one of the retirees when I don't do what he wants. This absolutely ruins my mood, productivity, and quality of life.
> 
> If I could do it again, I would avoid getting into a situation where someone else has expectations of what I'll do for them, and has leverage over me.


I thought you were taking a sabbatical for a year or two? Has it been that long already? 

I don't think there is much age related. Part of this is about knowing the person on the other end of the deals. I try not to get into any situation where I 'owe' someone. I will do things for other people, but always on my terms. If I am helping someone and they do not like it, I will just stop helping them, the exception of course are my parents since they did raise me, so I will always owe them. I will bend over backwards for people until they start setting unreasonable expectations, when it comes to that, its always them that loses out. 

I would have a very heart to heart talk and set some boundaries and expectations. If something cannot be resolved, then you always have the option to move. I always have taken the stance that if someone does or gives me somethings, I am very appreciative, but I am willing to walk away if they try to hold it over my head. 

I had an older relative keep mentioning some inheritance. I couldn't care less, they would try to control different family members and get them to do things for them. I always told them that I have no problems doing anything. I don't expect or want anything, so don't try to bribe with this inheritance because I don't need it or want it. Just be appreciative that I a nice person, but don't take advantage of my kindness or try to control me.


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## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> I thought you were taking a sabbatical for a year or two? Has it been that long already?


My intention was to take a sabbatical but I stumbled into a very nice work arrangement, so I've been rolling with that. It could end at any time, anyway. It was a short term commitment.

But it's true that when I quit my job, I was planning on taking lots of time off. In reality, I only took about 2 months to relax, then stumbled into this work. After I work for a while in the current arrangement, I may decide to take more time off.


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## james4beach

@Money172375 those are good points, thanks. You're right, nothing is really free. I guess I just had not visualized what that meant in my arrangement. I figured that my "repayment" was in the occasional assistance I've been providing. But it seems that the other party expected something a little different.

@Plugging Along Maybe as you say, this isn't as age-related as I think. I should mention that all of these people are family members, which changes the dynamics. If they were strangers or non relatives, it's much easier to "walk away" or firmly set boundaries.


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## james4beach

I have a new apartment in downtown Vancouver; just signed the lease. The twist is that even though I'm upgrading to one of the most expensive cities, my rent is now *lower* than the previous rent I was paying for the last few years.

I hope this means that my overall expenses can stay stable going forward. I'm going to stick to my existing budget; no change in plans.

Even though I have the actual lease now, I find that I keep looking back at the dollar figure every few hours. It's about $250/month = $3,000 a year lower than I expected I would be paying. This is a huge win for my budget!


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## nathan79

Glad you found a deal! I had a feeling you'd be able to negotiate a good price if you were patient. There's desperation among landlords right now... this is a harbinger to declines in house prices.


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## james4beach

nathan79 said:


> Glad you found a deal! I had a feeling you'd be able to negotiate a good price if you were patient. There's desperation among landlords right now... this is a harbinger to declines in house prices.


The desperation I saw in the last few days was _very_ surprising. I really wonder if this is a temporary thing, or if rents will stay depressed for a while. Many property managers told me that foreign students left to go back home, leaving many vacant units. There is also a batch of working professionals, some from different countries, who can either work from home (probably in a less expensive suburb), or might want to return back to their home countries and keep working from there.

Thanks to many of you in this thread for the help and advice regarding living in BC.

Looking back at this thread, I'm also pretty happy that within 9 days of my frustration of my current situation, I was able to book flights, get to Vancouver, view places and sign a lease. I think I viewed at least 8 different apartments.


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## andrewf

I doubt you would have found a different situation even if you paid your relative market rent. Maybe you just did not feel comfortable putting your foot down. I would have felt comfortable saying I will not answer the phone or the door if you knock while I am working. I work these hours. I will consider helping outside of those hours. If you have an emergency, call 911. If it is not 911 worthy, it is not an emergency.


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## Money172375

james4beach said:


> The desperation I saw in the last few days was _very_ surprising. I really wonder if this is a temporary thing, or if rents will stay depressed for a while. Many property managers told me that foreign students left to go back home, leaving many vacant units. There is also a batch of working professionals, some from different countries, who can either work from home (probably in a less expensive suburb), or might want to return back to their home countries and keep working from there.
> 
> Thanks to many of you in this thread for the help and advice regarding living in BC.
> 
> Looking back at this thread, I'm also pretty happy that within 9 days of my frustration of my current situation, I was able to book flights, get to Vancouver, view places and sign a lease. I think I viewed at least 8 different apartments.


there a lot of foreign students renting in toronto and vancouver......a lot. The virus will have implications in so many ways that haven’t even been conceived yet.


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## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> there a lot of foreign students renting in toronto and vancouver......a lot. The virus will have implications in so many ways that haven’t even been conceived yet.


I still think we don't have a clue of what these effects could be. I recently had a flight with COVID precautions and I can tell you that very few people will be flying for a long time. In my eyes that means that business travel is not coming back for at least a year or two. By then, people will get used to remote work and I doubt it will bounce back to normal.

As I walk around Vancouver, this makes me think of all the convention centers, huge (expensive) hotels that are going to sit empty. There is normally a ton of international business travel, and it's stopped cold.

Some of these properties, like the fancy clubs near the harbours, probably have *monthly* rents of over $100 K. Nobody is paying those rents today and I doubt they will pay them a year from now either.

Cities like Vancouver, Toronto, London, Sydney are in for some real trouble.


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## Money172375

I live in a town of 10,000 and I just saw the library’s plan to return to “normal”. they believe it will be 1-2 years for that to happen. Shocking in a small town but even we have summer camps, teaching seminars and other functions of 50 people or more. Shared computers, shared copiers....the list goes on and on.

think of casinos, buffet restaurants, theme parks, concerts, sporting events. I saw that they are even worried about the Olympics next year.

i have two kids in high school. I don’t think they will see “normal“ school ever again. Think about shared musical instruments and spit valves. You don’t realize what’s changed until you try doing something you haven’t done since Feb....it’s only then, you release how different it really is.


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## james4beach

I feel bad for kids and teenagers. It's sad that they have to experience these disruptions to some of the most important, interesting, and fun times in life... such as graduating high school and going off to university. When I first entered university it seemed like constant parties and socializing, plus challenging, packed classrooms, etc. There's also all the music clubs, theater clubs, sports, and all kinds of social groups & clubs.

Just as one example, what happens to a teenager who is interested in theater, dance, or the performing arts? These are all group activities. I hope people are still able to practice their art of choice during these formative years... it's critical for a young person who's developing a passion.

I wonder what impact this will all have on this cohort.

As for me, I'm doing my part for the economy. I spent nearly $5000 in the last 4 days (flights, hotel, new leases).


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## Topo

Vancouver real estate prices have been on a relentless rise for a couple of decades, to the detriment of renters, many of whom are temporary residents or workers with meager resources. The rents letting down is kind of a relief for renters. For the landlords, of course, it is different. There are mortgages that have to be paid and other expenses. Maybe the tide is turning a bit.


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## peterk

Commercial rents need to drop by like 75% and residential rents by 25% to reflect new economic conditions. The government's commercial rent subsidy program and, to a lesser degree, CERB, are gifts to commercial and big multi unit landlords, literally rent seekers, that suck money from the economy and provide nothing but time spent in a box. 

As someone who's observed economic hardship in my city for several years now, it's frustrating to see businesses that operate effectively and can attract as many customers as is reasonable end up having to close because of "rent disputes".

The landlord provides very little economic value compared to the tenant, and yet expects a huge portion of the revenue generated by the business, as well as cashflow stability and insulation from economic fluctuations. Landlords, especially commercial ones, need a wake up call.


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## andrewf

^ Could be solved by a land value tax. Essentially the government captures land rents (at highest and best use) and landlords would collect rents based on improvements (owners capture implies rents). Money is used to reduce income taxes, etc.


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## Topo

Real estate prices and rents in cities like Vancouver and Toronto have been dissociated from economic realities of those places for years now. The only winners are those who bought years ago and are now selling to fund their retirement in cheaper locales.


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## james4beach

Seeking advice in countdown to retirement


I'm not really retiring. You might call it a sabbatical, but I figure 'retirement' is a familiar term and some of the problems I'm looking at are similar. After working for a stretch of years, I'm going to take a break and pursue some personal projects, leisure, and new business. Ultimately I...




www.canadianmoneyforum.com





I just reached the 1 year anniversary of quitting my day job! I'm attempting to fund my lifestyle less from working, and more from investments.

Looking at the numbers for my last 12 months, my self-employment income is 33K and expenses are 25K so my income currently exceeds expenses. I didn't expect this to happen, but I "stumbled into" some work that I enjoy.

My original idea was to withdraw from my investments to the extent I need to. Because my income is sufficient right now, I have not withdrawn from investments. But for example if my expenses in a year are 38K, and my employment income is only 10K, then I would take withdrawals (dividends + interest + liquidation) totalling 28K.

So far, I've encountered two issues as someone who doesn't have a regular job:

1. I don't have disability insurance (DI) and find I can't qualify for it now. I should have bought non-cancellable DI when I had a regular job.

2. Renting a home became more difficult, without a typical job. Some landlords are concerned when they don't see routine payroll deposits.


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## andrewf

On 1., this is a good point. I am working on some side business ideas. If they develop into something sustainable, I will look into such DI prior to leaving my current employment.

The other downside is that you have less 'pension' income due to lack of CPP contributions. That gives you more sequence of return and rate of return risk. You seem to be quite a saver, so maybe not a problem, but something to consider.


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## james4beach

andrewf said:


> On 1., this is a good point. I am working on some side business ideas. If they develop into something sustainable, I will look into such DI prior to leaving my current employment.


You might even want to apply and lock in non-cancellable DI before you go too far down that route. The reason is that (as I understand insurance) there is an obligation to disclose material information to the insurer. If you were on the brink of quitting your job any moment, I think it might be dishonest to get DI at that point - or you should at least disclose the intention.

On the other hand, getting DI well in advance, back when you are still in the 'regular employee mode' seems perfectly honest. Again make sure it's non-cancellable and beware of the categories like 'any occupation' vs 'own occupation'.



> The other downside is that you have less 'pension' income due to lack of CPP contributions. That gives you more sequence of return and rate of return risk. You seem to be quite a saver, so maybe not a problem, but something to consider.


You're absolutely right, and if I remain on this track, I will end up with less CPP than most Canadians. I'm glad you reminded me. Missing out on CPP is a pretty unfortunate consequence of reducing or stopping my employment income.

Do you think it's possible the government may let Canadians buy into the CPP, contributing extra? On my current track, I might not get anywhere close to 100% CPP, unless I go back to a regular office job for a few more years.


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## andrewf

You can pay yourself a salary from your holding company, instead of dividends, to contribute to CPP. Of course, you should dividend any Canadian dividends you receive.


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## james4beach

andrewf said:


> You can pay yourself a salary from your holding company, instead of dividends, to contribute to CPP. Of course, you should dividend any Canadian dividends you receive.


This is an interesting idea. I don't have a corporation right now, but if my business picks up over time, this would be a good option.

Another idea might be to buy an annuity, but it seems to me that the CPP is a better deal than an annuity. Are they even in the same ballpark?


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## Money172375

I raised the same question as well as I stopped contributing to CPP in my 40s. Everyone says....who cares, it’s your your own money that you’re getting back from CPP.

do we know how much the average Canadian contributes to CPP during their lifetime and what the average Canadian earns form CPP? Would love to see some numbers And now the savings/investment return looks.


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## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> I raised the same question as well as I stopped contributing to CPP in my 40s. Everyone says....who cares, it’s your your own money that you’re getting back from CPP.
> 
> do we know how much the average Canadian contributes to CPP during their lifetime and what the average Canadian earns form CPP? Would love to see some numbers And now the savings/investment return looks.


It's true that you're getting your own money back, and it's true that you can (in theory) get the same effect by investing your own money. So one could argue that you and I are not "missing out" on the CPP in monetary terms.

But I still wish I could buy into the CPP and convert my $ into a pension.

I think there's a big advantage to having a _federal_ pension which holds some of your money. You can mismanage your finances, fail to save, or even have disasters in life (beyond your control). No matter what, the $ that goes into the CPP stays in there until you're 60 years old.

The CPP is government backed and firewalled. Your CPP is unaffected by personal bankruptcy. It's unaffected by relatives who are begging for money, perhaps pleading with you (or maybe harassing you) to hand over money. My ex girlfriend had a good income as a professional, but was constantly sharing her income with all her family members, who needed help for various reasons. She will work for 30 years and maybe have nothing left for herself.

My aunt is another person who has been unable to save money. She's made terrible investments on her own, and just not managed her finances well. But she did work, and pay into the CPP. Thank goodness!

Overall I really like what the CPP does. Yes you absolutely can save money yourself, to replicate the future cash payout. But we can't replicate the protection and firewalling.

The annuity is the only alternative I can think of, that has some of these nice characteristics.


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## Topo

james4beach said:


> Another idea might be to buy an annuity, but it seems to me that the CPP is a better deal than an annuity. Are they even in the same ballpark?


One important difference between annuities and CPP is that the latter is indexed to inflation, which in the long run is very important. Another difference, as you have mentioned, is the implicit guarantee by the federal government for the CPP, which does not exist for an annuity.


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## james4beach

Things are "getting real" now... so it's a bit exciting and also a bit frightening.

I've moved to BC and, setting up my new household, there are a variety of new expenses. I expected this, but it's still a big spike in expenses. Monitoring my 'trailing 12 months' of spending will be even more important in the coming months.

At the same time, my low level of self-employment income continues. Managing my cashflow will be important for the rest of this year. I also expect to partially live off my investments (withdrawal mode).


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## john.cray

Welcome to Vancouver.


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## james4beach

john.cray said:


> Welcome to Vancouver.


Thanks! And happy Canada Day!

The only thing that makes me nervous is the possibility of another shutdown / shortages due to COVID. There are still a lot of essentials I don't have and I'm going to need to get a bunch of stuff from Ikea, Home Depot, Best Buy (for business) and many other places.

Question for BC people: how likely do you think it is that retail stores will shut down again? The province may not consider Canadian Tire, Ikea, or electronics stores to be "essential services", but as a guy sitting in a mostly empty apartment who's still setting up my home & office, these things are essential for me.

I'm trying to prioritize the most essential things (work desk and vital computer equipment) but I have a long way to go. I normally don't like rushing my shopping, but I wonder if I should hurry before more closures come in Sept/Oct?


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## milhouse

Dr Henry has said the plan is go slow in order to prevent the province from having to take a step back. So ideally, stores won't have to shut down going forward. In fact, I don't think normal retail stores were under any original health order to close down. The retail outlets just made the decision themselves to close up shop for a few weeks. I don't think online shopping and delivery/pick-up was impacted.
That said, if things really flare up again, I can see province re-enact restrictions that indirectly impact retail operations. I'm cautiously optimistic the province won't take a step back though.


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## james4beach

Spending update
*Total spent in last 12 months: $29,089*

I'm now getting back to normal spending patterns so this number will increase. My annual expense budget has been 38K since 2017 and I'm continuing to stick with this level.


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## james4beach

I'm still settling into Vancouver and it's too early to tell how my spending pattern will shape up. I've been buying all kinds of household items and furniture, but this is a bootstrapping phase.

Originally I thought I would be on sabbatical and not working, but as it turns out, my small business income has been OK. I think we might be entering an economic depression, and I think I would be unwise to turn down income under these circumstances especially since I am lucky enough to still work despite COVID. Any extra $ that I can get in the bank and into my investments can only help in the long term. Plus, self-employment lets me make CPP contributions.

My business cash flow (monthly revenue) is volatile, ranging from 1K to 15K a month. So I'm trying a new trick. I've got all the cash (business revenue + stock dividends) sloshing into a large account, which is also connected to my LoC for extra liquidity. I've set up a monthly recurring transfer for a constant amount, out of this large account, into my daily-use chequing account.

The money shows up like a regular paycheque. Then, I pay all my bills out of here. What I like about this approach is that it decouples my immediate self-employment earnings from my spending. I don't want to change my spending behaviour on a month-to-month basis due to that volatile income.


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## james4beach

My spending in the last few months has been much higher than I anticipated. I forgot how much money it costs to acquire new stuff to fill up a new home / apartment / home office.

That's also important to keep in mind for home insurance. You might look at your possessions and think they aren't worth much. But the real question is: how much would it cost you to _replace_ everything you have?

The CPP issue is also now "solved" because, due to self-employment income, I will be paying into CPP.


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## hfp75

In some cases you could be thrifty & use kijiji / FB Marketplace..... there are savings with some used stuff....


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## james4beach

hfp75 said:


> In some cases you could be thrifty & use kijiji / FB Marketplace..... there are savings with some used stuff....


True, and I've scored some used items already.

Next month I'll force myself to finally look at my numbers. October looks pretty good with about 3K spent (within budget) but previous months were much higher.


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## james4beach

Total spending in 2020 was $38,510 which is right on my 38K annual budget.

I'm now crunching more recent numbers. I moved and had some big expenses while buying new furniture & housewares.


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## james4beach

Spending update
*Total spent in last 12 months: $43,516
Total spent in last 6 months: $19,141*

Definitely running higher than my 38K annual budget for the trailing 12 months, but close to my target for the trailing 6 months.

Some of the big costs are moving expenses, and high fees for dealing with American IRS and complex dual-country tax advice. Unfortunately I still need that expensive expert at the moment, and am thinking about how to phase it out in the coming years. Sadly I am not finished with the IRS for a few years.


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## james4beach

Spending update
*Total spent in last 12 months: $46,573
Total spent in last 6 months: $21,197*

Still running higher than my 38K annual budget. This is mostly attributable to special one time items (moving + professional help with IRS) so I'll just have to live with it for now. But I'm also seeing good news in my spending patterns. My core living expenses in 2021 so far (housing, food, travel, necessities, etc) are all within target.

So I think that my core living expenses are OK.


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## james4beach

A question for @milhouse @john.cray @andrewf @AltaRed and others...

My recent experience with these surprise or one-off expenses makes me wonder how one should estimate their living expenses in retirement. For example, I might say that "I can live on 40 k" which is mostly true, but once in a while you encounter some surprises that can easily add an extra 5 or 10k in expenses.

From the SWR standpoint, it's important to account for those surprises. How do you think one should do this? One way is to eyeball an average amount and increase the annual living expenses, but that doesn't seem like a great way to account for highly sporadic one-off spending. And I don't want to encourage any increase to my routine spending.


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## Money172375

james4beach said:


> A question for @milhouse @john.cray @andrewf @AltaRed and others...
> 
> My recent experience with these surprise or one-off expenses makes me wonder how one should estimate their living expenses in retirement. For example, I might say that "I can live on 40 k" which is mostly true, but once in a while you encounter some surprises that can easily add an extra 5 or 10k in expenses.
> 
> From the SWR standpoint, it's important to account for those surprises. How do you think one should do this? One way is to eyeball an average amount and increase the annual living expenses, but that doesn't seem like a great way to account for highly sporadic one-off spending. And I don't want to encourage any increase to my routine spending.


You didn’t ask me, but I’d make a best guess at my long-range plans are and budget accordingly. Will I need a new roof, car, furniture, dental etc. Plan for what you KNOW you will need, even if 10-15 years out. Then establish a safe emergency fund for the truly unexpected.


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## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> You didn’t ask me, but I’d make a best guess at my long-range plans are and budget accordingly. Will I need a new roof, car, furniture, dental etc. Plan for what you KNOW you will need, even if 10-15 years out. Then establish a safe emergency fund for the truly unexpected.


Thanks, good point. Many of those costs are foreseeable. For example we might not know exactly what kind of dental work we need, but it's pretty likely we'll have some kind of dental surprise within 10 years.


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## AltaRed

It depends on how much flexibility one has in their portfolio draw (or if still working, earning power). If it is tight, then having a robust emergency fund set aside is a good idea. However, it does not reduce the need to then replenish that emergency fund so one must still set aside $X/month to replenish (top up) that fund within a reasonably short period of time (<12 months) before the next surprise comes along.


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## Spudd

Another thing you could do is don't account for OAS, for example. Base your retirement goal on your spending being covered from your nest egg and CPP alone. Then OAS is a "bonus" that you can just save up and spend as needed on those surprise items. I know it's mental accounting but I like mental accounting.


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## milhouse

Along the lines of AR's reply, we make use of flexibility in our spend.

I think there's always a laundry list of non-regular spend items from repairs, to maintenence, to new projects. We have a rough idea how much we plan to spend on non-regular spends in different categories and then just juggle it into our annual spend target, savings, and discretionary spending to keep actual annual spends relatively stable.

For example, I factor in $1.5k or so on housing one off spending annually. That may go to replacing an appliance, replacing carpet, painting, and/or whatever. If we're under budget in other categories, I may do some additional work/spend on housing from the backlog list or vice versa. If I need more spend on housing, I might also spend less on discretionary (travel) or save/invest a bit less. Or I might just put something off to the following year. It's a juggling act. That kind of keeps the spending somewhat stable and proviides a rough annual spend guidance, though we're also ok with fluctuations.

For retirement, we will also have a reasonably sized bucket for discretionary/travel spend which will provide a lot of flexibility for one off spends.


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## john.cray

My naïve approach goes like this:
1. I establish a baseline of expenses per year which is my usual spend without any surprises
2. I go back over previous years and guesstimate an average of "surprise" or extra expenses per year
3. I add the two and this is my target spend per year that I must sustain

Of course real expenses might go above and beyond of 3. and this would be a bad year but hopefully over time it will average out. I suppose if one is still capable of working and if it's a really hefty expense you might want to consider working more that year to compensate for this and reduce the burden on the portfolio.


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## Spudd

I'd like to add, in real life what I did is this:


did not account for CPP/OAS in planning
did not account for inheritances in planning (I'm reasonably confident they will come, but who knows when, hopefully later than sooner)
retired once I had 25x planned expenses saved up

Post-retirement, I use VPW to determine my allowed spending. I only draw 80% of what VPW says I can draw, saving the other 20% for taxes. (In reality, I pay basically no taxes, so that 20% just pumps up the portfolio.) Every year, I pull 1 year's spending out of my portfolio and into a HISA. Every month, I take 1/12 of that from the HISA into our joint chequing account for spending. At the end of the month, whatever is left over gets divided between 6 accounts:
1. my fun money
2. his fun money
3. car savings
4. vacation savings
5. furniture savings (but this would also include things like appliances, a new shed, etc)
6. emergency fund

Only once so far has there been actually an overspending situation where we withdrew from the emergency fund. We had a water heater fail and it cost 3k to fix, so we spent from the chequing and then replenished it back to baseline from the emergency fund.


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## james4beach

Thanks for all the replies, everyone. These seem like good techniques.



Spudd said:


> I'd like to add, in real life what I did is this:
> . . .
> Post-retirement, I use VPW to determine my allowed spending.


I forgot that variable spending techniques allow flexibility. Right, one does not have to strictly do the constant $ SWR thing.... and that adds flexibility when in retirement mode.


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## peterk

Good to see you're keeping at it James.

My (family) spending for 2021 has hit $45,000 YTD, first half of this year. Trending much higher than the desired $70,000/yr budget that I "planned" for. But I also forgot to account for Daycare expense, which will be around $10,000 this year. 

I still don't and probably never will "partition" money into various funds. "Fun money" "savings" etc. Money is fungible, as they say, something I've ingrained in myself since young...I guess most other people don't have this feature/bug in them and like to partition and budget things.

Every single time I spend money on something is an internal automatic holistic review of my entire financial life... what does it cost? is it a want or a need? am I being cheap or frivolous? what's my net worth? what's my income? how hard do I work for my income?... is it worth it?

Generally I feel I've loosened the strings on buying in the last 2 years... but at the same time there's been major life changes with wedding, children and house. So it's hard to know exactly what the "right amount" of acceptable spending vs. savings are anymore. I generally feel that the last 2 years were exception periods, and perhaps the constant buying of things that we didn't buy before will subside, soon. Though it could be that I am being a naive parent? _nervous laughter_


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## james4beach

peterk said:


> I still don't and probably never will "partition" money into various funds. "Fun money" "savings" etc. Money is fungible, as they say, something I've ingrained in myself since young...I guess most other people don't have this feature/bug in them and like to partition and budget things.


Good point, money is fungible. It's hard to partition it. I track my spending by category, but I don't limit any of this.



peterk said:


> Generally I feel I've loosened the strings on buying in the last 2 years... but at the same time there's been major life changes with wedding, children and house.


Yeah lifestyle changes everything. I think I may get a house at some point, and life will obviously get more expensive once I do that. I'm also open to perhaps getting married or even having kids one day.

I need to remind myself to not take this budgeting stuff too seriously. Life can change, and suddenly you have entirely different expenses. I think that's OK. The main reason I am tracking this stuff is so that I can keep an eye on it, because I think it's helpful to monitor and know where you are spending money.

But if I have kids, obviously I will be spending more, and that's not a bad thing.


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## james4beach

I finally sat down and calculated monthly totals for all of 2021. The result is good news... I ended up right on my annual spending target! I'm still spending about 38K a year, _the same as 2017._ That's now about 5 years at the same spending level.

Spending update
*2021 total spending: $38,200 (target is 38K)*
2020 total spending: $38,510

Reviewing the yearly totals, I can see that I'm spending more on food, partly due to more takeout but also likely because Vancouver is more expensive than where I used to live. I'm spending much less on travel than I did before the pandemic. I'm also spending money on health insurance and various health costs that used to be employment benefits. So I actually did have those costs in the past, but there was an "accounting trick" where the employer paid me extra for them, so they were hidden from my annual spending figure.

All of this can change as the pandemic subsides, and I'll adapt as required. It's very likely I will have to increase this 38K budget, but then gain, I've been saying that for several years now.

It's not like I'm just sitting at home doing nothing, by the way. I had several domestic trips in 2021, also stayed at some hotels, visited various friends, did road trips, etc. The pandemic has changed my spending patterns but it seems it has just shifted around some of that spending, not eliminated it.


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## milhouse

james4beach said:


> All of this can change as the pandemic subsides, and I'll adapt as required. It's very likely I will have to increase this 38K budget, but then gain, I've been saying that for several years now.
> 
> It's not like I'm just sitting at home doing nothing, by the way. I had several domestic trips in 2021, also stayed at some hotels, visited various friends, did road trips, etc. The pandemic has changed my spending patterns but it seems it has just shifted around some of that spending, not eliminated it.


Yeah, I kind of find one just adjusts to the situation at hand.


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## BigMonkey

Good job with your reduced spending, though I am a bit curious on why you are holding yourself back on the spending? By holding your spending flat for the last 5 years, it meant you have essentially been making bigger sacrifices for 4 years due to inflation. Also coming from a HCOL place, I personally know that 38k wouldn't go very far for me.

I am not familiar with your financial situation/goals, but from what I understand based on your first post is you make a decent amount with lower spending habits, which would suggest you have decent amount saved. Unless you are aiming for really early retirement or a big financial, I think you might be overdoing it and are missing out on some the things that could enrich your life.


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## james4beach

BigMonkey said:


> though I am a bit curious on why you are holding yourself back on the spending? By holding your spending flat for the last 5 years, it meant you have essentially been making bigger sacrifices for 4 years due to inflation


You're using terms like "holding yourself back" and "sacrifices", but I don't think I'm sacrificing anything. In the year before the pandemic, I had travelled to Australia and Hawaii. For years I also wanted to live by the beach (notice my user name) and I finally did that as well. Now I live near the beach.

It just seems that the things I want and enjoy right now don't cost very much. Maybe that will change at some point. From what I see among my friends and coworkers, these seem to be their expensive habits. But I don't crave these things:

a large suburban house or condo unit
new or fancy car
home furnishings and home renovations
going out to bars and restaurants (not my thing)


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## BigMonkey

Based on this website. It seems like ~40k/year in Vancouver is kind of the bare min living without much traveling or luxuries in their life. This is how much money you need to make to live alone in Vancouver | Urbanized

I too have lived a somewhat low key lifestyle where I was "holding myself back" and found once I started to say yes to even more things than I have in the past, I've been immersed into new wonderful experiences and others not so great. But regardless, many new good stories can now be told.

I also have some acquaintances that have saved quite a bit by a certain age who resisted spending until they got to their "good spot" and before they started to do the things they want. They felt they have missed out on so many experiences that would have been much better when they were younger, or the passion they thought they had for a hobby is no longer there. As a result, they are kind of living with regret and said they would do things differently if they could go back.

For everyone, even if someone has never saved a day in their life, the government will provide a person approx ~18k through CPP, OAS, GIS once you are 65+ (this will be more in the future since the government is enhancing the CPP). So to maintain your current lifestyle, you only really need to make up the other ~20k/year in retirement, which I suspect you may have already obtained.


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## james4beach

BigMonkey said:


> Based on this website. It seems like ~40k/year in Vancouver is kind of the bare min living without much traveling or luxuries in their life. This is how much money you need to make to live alone in Vancouver | Urbanized


My apartment costs 20% less than what's in the article and many of my other costs are lower as well. I think what happened in my case is that, while many people would spend lots of money on restaurants/bars/partying, I spend that money on travel instead. So a lot of my entertainment money is normally spent on world travel.

Because of the pandemic, I'm currently not travelling as much. There's no question that my spending will increase once I start travelling more. It won't be too hard to spend more than 40K a year. So I agree with you, my current spending level is artificially low, it's really because I don't want to travel internationally right now.

So I will "reset" my annual budget to a higher level at some point and that will catch up for many years of inflation I suppose. It just hasn't happened yet.


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## james4beach

I just looked at BC's stats for the CPI, and inflation in the province is about 5%, similar to the Canadian average.

If this keeps up (and it probably will), my rent will probably increase by something like 5% next year, as BC sets the maximum allowable rent increase according to the CPI.

Because rent is a huge part of my expenses, that will definitely push up my annual spending. In addition, the building landlord is fighting the tenants (a tenancy board dispute) to get an additional 3% rent increase approved, above the provincial maximum. Combined, this could mean an *8% increase* in my rent next year.


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## londoncalling

Could you elaborate? If the province has legislated a maximum how van th landlord impose an increase higher than that?


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## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> Could you elaborate? If the province has legislated a maximum how van th landlord impose an increase higher than that?


Provincial law has a provision to allow this, but it must go through a rather complicated process and Tenancy Board dispute. The landlord is attempting it at my building and has initiated a formal dispute against all tenants. So yes there is a method to do it, but I'm currently fighting it.


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## james4beach

@milhouse this may interest since you just retired. Also @AltaRed @TomB16 @cainvest

I think the conservative approach I've been taking to my _allowable_ annual spending, is a really good habit to get into. It should help when living off the portfolio. In the RR podcast# 164, Kitces comments that adjustments to portfolio withdrawals can be done several different ways.

One way is dynamic adjustments, perhaps year to year, with small trims up and down. He notes that these are awkward and don't necessarily make a big difference in the overall (multi decade) picture.

Kitces then says withdrawal adjustments have more impact *when they are small but permanent changes*. He says that an easy one is skipping the inflation adjustment, since people are often very flexible (in practice) and don't really need an exact 2.5% withdrawal increase just because inflation is 2.5%

This is what I've done over the years myself. Since 2017, my annual spending cap has been 38K. Obviously I went a bit over board here in "dragging my feet" and I am going to increase my spending cap due to current inflation.

But my point is, even dragging one's feet just a bit, or perhaps *skipping* the inflation adjustment in some years (perhaps your lifestyle is perfectly comfortable) benefits your portfolio. It makes your capital last longer, and IMO is easy and far more comfortable than explicitly cutting your $ withdrawal, which is obviously a painful thing to do.


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## milhouse

Thanks, I actually came across Michael's Kitces' suggestion about skipping the inflation adjustment as a way to support portfolio viability a while back on his website and during his original appearance on the RR podcast. However, I haven't listened to the RR podcast in a while and found the compilation on the 4% rule a good recap though. 

The way I'm managing withdrawals from my portfolio is a mishmash of techniques which I'm not sure of the effectiveness or if it will work at all. I'm going to _broadly apply concepts_ around guardrails, VPW, skipping inflation adjustments, etc (I know it doesn't really make sense) against my RRSP and DC pension withdrawals. These withdrawals are geared towards supporting discretionary spending so I'm not as concerned about small fluxuations and minor loss of purchasing power.


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## james4beach

milhouse said:


> The way I'm managing withdrawals from my portfolio is a mishmash of techniques which I'm not sure of the effectiveness or if it will work at all. I'm going to _broadly apply concepts_ around guardrails, VPW, skipping inflation adjustments, etc (I know it doesn't really make sense) against my RRSP and DC pension withdrawals. These withdrawals are geared towards supporting discretionary spending so I'm not as concerned about small fluxuations and minor loss of purchasing power.


Seems reasonable enough. There's also the feedback mechanism of the portfolio value over longer time frames like 10 years. As time goes on, you can plot the total portfolio value and see how things are shaping up.


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## james4beach

I'm finally adjusting my annual budget. *My expense target is now 43K.*

This level was previously 38K, since 2017. Many things have changed over these years. Because I'm self-employed, I now pay various insurance/medical costs that my employer used to pay. The old target was also set in another city, and I moved a couple years ago.

I analyzed some of my spending categories since the start of the pandemic. The only area where I've seen a significant increase in spending is in my travel, because I'm back to world travel. I may still have to make further adjustments to my target (especially if inflation persists) but at the moment I think it's enough to comfortably cover my lifestyle, including normal travel patterns.


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## james4beach

Spending update:
Total spent in last 12 months: $42,258

But this current month has some big costs due to some travel and dental costs. Even though I just increased my annual budget, I'm going to have to be careful with December.


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## MrBlackhill

james4beach said:


> I analyzed some of my spending categories


Looking at your trends is very interesting. Some are volatile, others aren't. You seem to have a pretty thorough analysis of your expenses down to the month.

I'm wondering how your budget works?

My budget is pretty detailed because I want to see the cashflow movements to optimize investments and to understand when I need to grow some cash for an upcoming yearly expense and when I can move some more cash towards investments.

I make a 2D table on a Google Sheet where each column is one of 40 different inflows/outflows categories and each row represents the 52 weeks of the year. I distribute my budget towards how it's most likely going to play out so I can forecast my chequing account expected balance for each week and optimize investments/savings.

Meanwhile, I have a duplicate of that same Google Sheet where I note what truly happened so far so I can make adjustments.

I already have my forecast for 2023 and it makes it easier to explain, prioritize and negotiate when talking finances with my wife.


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## james4beach

MrBlackhill said:


> I'm wondering how your budget works?


Your budget is much more advanced than mine. I came up with my budget by studying my spending patterns in months where I know I was being disciplined. I looked at where I actually spent money, averaged it over the "model" months and used that to determine my expectations.

As much as I track this stuff, I'm also flexible. I'm aiming for 43K annual expenses but I allow myself to shift between categories. My main goal here is to limit my spending so that it doesn't run away from me. If I occasionally run over by one or two thousand $, no problem, but I want to control my behaviours and not get into the habit of just spending freely.

Over all these years, I've found that simply watching my current spending level, and comparing it to my target, goes a long way to control my behaviour.


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## james4beach

The landlord notified tenants that there will be an additional rent increase in my building, on top of the province's maximum allowed. I wrote about this in another thread, if you're curious. It went through a dispute process at the Tenancy Board, and we've been filing paperwork back and forth for over a year.

Anyway, the amount of the increases are now known. We're getting a bit of a jump next year. But the _3 year annual rate_ of rent increases works out to 2% which is fine. So at least my housing cost continues to be quite steady.


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## latebuyer

Thats good news. Glad disputing made a difference.


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## james4beach

Spending update:
Total spent in 2022 : $43,155

That's right on the 43K annual target.

Increased travel accounts for all of my spending increase in the last couple of years. Amazingly, once I strip out the travel, the rest of my spending has been stable over the last 2 years. There are big caveats here that I posted in another thread, basically that inflation in Rent & Travel (two big categories for me) are both artificially excluded from this picture.


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