# Billionaires - Why aren't we learning from them?



## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

So I found this earlier today - really its US focused. 









Instead of Criticizing Billionaires Over Taxes, We Should Praise Them


Who's Paying the Taxes For starters, billionaires do pay taxes but through legal avoidance techniques minimize them. Despite attempts to minimize taxes, the




mishtalk.com





However, it got me thinking about attitudes that people have expressed about those who may be more well off. The federal election tactic for all the parties is an eat the rich strategy. But is this really the best outcome for Canada and Canadians? Instead of trying to bring the rich down through taxes, why isn't anyone suggesting that we should be making more billionaires, multi-millionaires and the like. Wasn't it Paul Martin who said "the problem with Canada is there isn't enough rich folks?" 

So why are the political parties not talking about become more productive and in turn making Canadian richer for the effort? Seems we've become a country of jealous takers.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

In the capitalist system, productivity doesn't equate to a bigger share for everyone.

Consider a pie.........and everyone is sitting around waiting for their slice.

With increased productivity......the pie gets larger but the number of people around the table also increases.

Now consider that a couple of people at the table always get a larger slice of the pie.........leaving smaller pieces for everyone else.

As productivity grows......those people claim an increasingly larger slice of the pie, leaving even smaller individual pieces for the increasing people at the table.

Productivity has grown for the past 40 years in leaps and bounds. The average person has not shared in those productivity gains.

Wages have been stagnant for decades, and closely track with globalism and the shrinking number of unions.

Consider that during some of the greatest productivity gains in history.........the tax rate on the wealthiest was as high as 90%.

How is that possible.........if high taxes on the wealthiest theoretically would crush productivity and job creation ?

If you play monopoly and one person receives twice as much for passing GO and twice as much for rent, they will eventually have all the money.

Wealthy people designed the economic system. It should come as no surprise the wealthy benefit the most from the system they designed.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

afulldeck said:


> Instead of trying to bring the rich down through taxes, why isn't anyone suggesting that we should be making more billionaires


Taxation is not about bring anyone down, it is about extracting a fair share of the costs of operating the country.

Taxing billionaires fairly is not at odds with "making more" billionaires. But government policy that does encourage/enable billionaires to develop is generally one that enables concentration of wealth through income inequities that don't appeal to me.


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## Karlhungus (Oct 4, 2013)

sags said:


> In the capitalist system, productivity doesn't equate to a bigger share for everyone.
> 
> Consider a pie.........and everyone is sitting around waiting for their slice.
> 
> ...


Socialists always describe the economy like a pie.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Karlhungus said:


> Socialists always describe the economy like a pie.


Whereas to the anarcho-capitalist libertarian it is, by contrast, also like a pie.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Billionaires, the elite class, used to be a more honorable peoples, coming from a healthy culture, and wishing to influence their regions/nations/world for the better. The term "noblesse oblige" has lost it's charm and influence these days though.
_
"noblesse oblige is a French expression from the times when the English nobility spoke French and maintains in English the meaning that nobility extends beyond mere entitlement and requires people who hold such status to fulfill social responsibilities. For example, a primary obligation of a nobleman could include generosity towards those around him."_

These people built and donated to the public a lot of the good old stuff that still exists today that we love, like big old buildings, libraries, churches, parks, etc.

These days everyone has been so neglected by the elite class of recent, especially the young, but even the old now, since this has been going on for many decades, that they are lashing out and craving something from someone that used to be there. The best we can get of a "noblesse oblige" from those in power today is a phony "corporate commitment" to things like going green and other ESG talking points, and the best we can get out of the government is slave creating poverty programs and blatant vote-buying directed in whatever manner will get the most votes for least cost. 

All we get is pop culture billionaires doing stunts in rocket ships that are partially subsidized by middle class taxpayers.

Something is clearly lost (taken by dishonorable elites and hostile domestic governments), and nobody knows how to fix it, so these piss-poor top down approaches become popular and then "smart" people get to chastise the young for being socialists.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

peterk said:


> These days everyone has been so neglected by the elite class of recent, especially the young, but even the old now, since this has been going on for many decades, that they are lashing out and craving something from someone that used to be there. The best we can get of a "noblesse oblige" from those in power today is a phony "corporate commitment" to things like going green and other ESG talking points, and the best we can get out of the government is slave creating poverty programs and blatant vote-buying directed in whatever manner will get the most votes for least cost.


This is an excellent point you made about phoney corporate commitment and government. And I certainly would take that position. Its a sad state of affairs. 

My other point, however, is why don't we have a mentor program for aspiring billionaires  ? We need to grow more wealthy people not less. It seems like there has been a wedge pushed between people who know how to create wealth (notice I don't call them the 'elite' class) and people who don't know how wealth. Seem like this is a big waste of energy. I get it not everyone will have the "hutzpah" to follow that path, but as a country we need more people trying not less. Anecdotally, I find it very discouraging that perhaps 1 out of 20 young adults want to create their own business, but at the same time the other 19 complain that their job doesn't pay enough.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There are rich people who mentor others.

All you have to do is go on the Sharks program, prove that you not only have a good business idea but also have impressive sales numbers and high profit margins.........and they will mentor you for 20% ownership in your company.

In fact, if you can show millions of dollars in sales, they will fight over mentoring you.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> There are rich people who mentor others.


Let's also remember that Kevin O'Leary is accused of committing corporate/financial fraud, when he misrepresented the financial position of his tech company. He was sued and reached one of the largest settlements made at the time (around the year 2000).

Kevin screwed shareholders and, in my opinion, stole from the public. Because the suit was settled, this was never determined in court... and that's why rich people make out of court settlements.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

sags said:


> There are rich people who mentor others.
> 
> All you have to do is go on the Sharks program, prove that you not only have a good business idea but also have impressive sales numbers and high profit margins.........and they will mentor you for 20% ownership in your company.
> 
> In fact, if you can show millions of dollars in sales, they will fight over mentoring you.


Who has time to watch TV. I'm trying to make billions, er, 100's of millions, er 10's of millions er....I don't have the time for TV.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> In the capitalist system, productivity doesn't equate to a bigger share for everyone.


No, only for those who produce more.



> Consider a pie.........and everyone is sitting around waiting for their slice.
> 
> With increased productivity......the pie gets larger but the number of people around the table also increases.
> 
> Now consider that a couple of people at the table always get a larger slice of the pie.........leaving smaller pieces for everyone else.


But when the pie is much larger, even the smaller slices are bigger than they were before.
That's the point, in Capitalism, we end up with a much larger pie for everyone.

Plus you're free to go make your own darn pie if you want.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

sags said:


> In fact, if you can show millions of dollars in sales, they will fight over mentoring you.


Haha, fun video. My conclusion though : millionaires fight over, but the billionaire doesn't care.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

afulldeck said:


> Who has time to watch TV. I'm trying to make billions, er, 100's of millions, er 10's of millions er....I don't have the time for TV.


I don't have TV. Ha! (True story)


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

What's wrong with letting more people make more pies? It used to be honorable and praiseworthy to make money by providing a useful product or service at a fair price. That was before the eggheads convinced everyone that the only honorable way to get money is to sponge off the government.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Most developed countries recognize the dangerous negative societal impact of an economic system that continues to widen the wealth and income gaps.

They meet and talk about it at G level meetings. They haven't come up with a satisfactory solution acceptable to all nations yet.

A recent development is discussion on a global corporate tax which would begin to take on the challenge of wealth redistribution.









130 countries and jurisdictions join bold new framework for international tax reform - OECD


OECD Information for journalists, 130 countries and jurisdictions have joined a new two-pillar plan to reform international taxation rules and ensure that multinational enterprises pay a fair share of tax wherever they operate.




www.oecd.org


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

Good piece from GT: 





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Mr. Big — Greater Fool – Authored by Garth Turner – The Troubled Future of Real Estate







www.greaterfool.ca





"....Here’s the reality. Personal and public (federal and provincial) debt in Canada is $4.5 trillion. Of that $1.1 trillion is the national debt and $1.7 trillion is owed on mortgages. Last year the Liberals spent $354 billion more than they took in, and every day of this campaign has brought more spending promises. Interest rates are in the ditch and can only rise. This suggests we’re in serious financial trouble already – unable to service debt if rates rise – even without new spending ($10-a-day child care, a UBI, new taxless home savings account, more wrinklie pogey, billions extra for doctors etc). So can taxing the ‘ultra-wealthy’ as the NDP proposes (and soon, the Libs) solve this?
Well, if all of the wealth of all the billionaires in Canada was confiscated, here’s how it would stack up against the money we’ve already borrowed. (It wouldn’t even come close to fixing things.)
*Eat the Rich – it won’t accomplish much*

*Click to enlarge.*
“I honestly believe these are the numbers that the left wing of the political spectrum can’t allow anyone to see or understand,” says Lee. “Their illusion of income class warfare and perpetual deficit generation couldn’t survive if Canadians truly understood that the debt accumulated is multitudes beyond what could ever be repaid… by the rich or otherwise. Any shortfall from the nonsensical ‘Tax the Rich’ movement pales in comparison to the irresponsible/irreparable damage being done by the very politicians conducting the finger pointing.”.."


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Most multi-millionaires and billionaires spend money on materialistic things they don't need. Maybe Warren Buffett is the exception, but still to be proven.

Who needs a $100,000+ car? Who needs a yacht? Who needs a $10M+ house? Who needs a private jet? Who needs $10,000+ jewelry or watch? Who needs $1,000+ cloths? Who needs a $100,000+ party? Who needs a $1,000+ wine/cognac/etc? Who eats at $500+ restaurants? That's not the purpose of life.

We are encouraging people to dream about a selfish and lavish life.

Better tax the rich and distribute that money according to a democratically elected government.

I'm always happy to reach the next income tax bracket. It means I'm making more money than I need. If I want to pay less taxes, well, there's an easy option : charity. So I choose where that money goes.

Search for "countries with highest taxes" then search for "countries with happiest citizens". See the correlation. That's not just me, you can search real studies.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The wealthiest Americans gained $1.7 Trillion during the pandemic........approximately 2 years.

They went from $3 Trillion in wealth to $4.7 Trillion in wealth.

The gain alone.........without touching a dime of their money before the pandemic.......would be enough to pay off all US student debt.

Think about what it would do to for the economy to remove the financial shackles from so many young people starting out in life.

Or....the uber-wealthy can just stash the cash for themselves.

When is enough......more than enough ? My guess would be......when they have it all.









US billionaires' collective wealth grew enough during the pandemic to pay off the $1.7 trillion student debt crisis


While the student debt crisis grew, Elon Musk got 600% richer, according to The Institute for Policy Studies and Americans for Tax Fairness.




www.businessinsider.com


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Garth Turner adds up the debt, including mortgages.....but doesn't bother to add up the other side of the ledger......the value of the assets.

He says there is $1.7 trillion in mortgage debt. I think it fair to assume that the equity in all those homes is substantially higher than the mortgage debt.

He also doesn't include the assets held in TFSAs, RRSPs, pension funds, vehicles, real estate and other assets.

It is easy to paint a grim picture when you only count debts without the offset of assets.

Oh no....you owe $200,000 on your home and let's not bother including it is worth $1,000,000, plus $300,000 in combined TFSAs and $200,000 in RRSPs.

Let's just say....My gosh....you owe $200,000......you are in deep financial trouble.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

As always, you completely misunderstood the post.

The post wasn't to compare overall assets vs debts.
It was to compare deficits vs total wealth of billionaires. 
Tax the rich isn't solution to having idiots in government.
The solution to that is to kick the idiots we currently have in the government.
They are much more damaging to the society than billionaires are and the graph shows that.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-01-20/why-danes-happily-pay-high-rates-of-taxes











Here's what Norway and the other happiest countries in the world have in common


The President wants more emigrants from countries like Norway. Here's why Norwegians are content where they are.




www.cnbc.com













A More Progressive Tax System Makes People Happier


The way some people talk, you’d think that a flat tax system—in which everyone pays at the same rate regardless of income—would make citizens feel better than more progressive taxation, where wealthier people are taxed …




www.psychologicalscience.org













A Wealth Tax Could Deliver a Happiness Dividend - BNN Bloomberg


Tax-the-rich plans face doubts about the amount of money they could raise. But researchers say they dependably produce an emotional lift for society as a whole.




www.bnnbloomberg.ca









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Subscribe to read | Financial Times


News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




www.ft.com





https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2019/02/11/taxing-rich-rutger-bregman-davos
Buffett himself believes he's not being taxed enough.



> Billionaire businessman Warren Buffett argued in a New York Times op-ed last month that the U.S. government doesn't tax him and his super-rich friends enough. "I know well many of the mega-rich and, by and large, they are very decent people," wrote Buffett. "Most wouldn’t mind being told to pay more in taxes as well, particularly when so many of their fellow citizens are truly suffering."











Facts and feelings: Do taxes make Finnish people happy? - thisisFINLAND


What comes to mind when you consider Finland and taxes? What do Finnish people think about taxes? What are the facts? And what do the Finns get in exchange for their tax payments?




finland.fi













‘Raise my taxes – now!’: the millionaires who want to give it all away


Abigail Disney has parted with $72m – and thinks the rich need to pay far more tax. As Covid widens the inequality gap, she and an international league of the super-rich are urging governments to take their money




www.theguardian.com













Among the happiest countries


International surveys rank Denmark among the world's happiest countries




denmark.dk













The Reason Many Ultrarich People Aren’t Satisfied With Their Wealth


At a certain point, another million dollars doesn’t make anything newly affordable. That’s when other motivations take over.




www.theatlantic.com









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Thought of the Week - Taxes and happiness







liberum.com







> If you ask people of all incomes if a more progressive tax system would make low-income households happy, everybody said yes. And indeed, poor households experience significantly higher levels of happiness in a more progressive tax system.
> 
> However, if you asked people of all incomes if a more progressive tax system would make high-income households less happy, everybody said yes. Yet, if you actually measured the happiness of the 20% of households with the highest income, it did decline marginally, but the decline was not statistically significant. In fact, if you waited five years, the rich were just as happy in a progressive tax system as they were in a less progressive system, while the poor were materially happier.





https://behavioralscientist.org/behavioral-economics-robert-frank-taxes-mother-of-all-cognitive-illusions/





> As most prosperous people would themselves be quick to concede, they have everything anybody might reasonably be said to need. If higher taxes pose any threat, it would be to make it more difficult for them to buy life’s special extras. But “special” is an inescapably relative concept. To be special means to stand out in some way from what is expected. And almost without exception, special things are in limited supply. There are only so many penthouse apartments with sweeping views of Central Park, for instance. To get one, a wealthy person must outbid peers who also want it. The outcomes of such bidding contests depend almost exclusively on relative purchasing power. And since relative purchasing power is completely unaffected when the wealthy all pay higher taxes, the same penthouses end up in the same hands as before.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

There is a difference between introducing more progressive taxation and vilifying billionaires.
Now, I think more progressive taxation won't help as billionaires have ways to avoid it (borrowing against their assets rather than making income, and using interest expense as a deduction) but there is tons of loopholes to closed.
More logical, simpler tax code doesn't equal vilification of billionaires though


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Learn from this billionaire.









Warren Buffett used Afghanistan to explain the role of luck in his career — and call for higher taxes on the rich


Buffett won the "ovarian lottery" by being born in the US, a country that rewarded his talent for investing.




www.businessinsider.com


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

Bernie is running out of billionaires. 

"The trouble with this story is that Bernie has already run out of billionaires. There are 724 of them in the U.S., according to the 2021 Forbes billionaires list, released in April. At that point their collective net worth was $4.4 trillion, although that figure has presumably since risen along with the stock market..."

"If Mr. Sanders were to confiscate every asset of every American billionaire— Jeff Bezos’s rockets; Elon Musk’s bitcoin; Larry Ellison’s boats; Oprah Winfrey’s houses; Ted Turner’s ranches; Jay-Z’s car collection; even the starched shirt off the back of poor Larry Fink, who tied for last place on the Forbes list, at $1 billion—it still wouldn’t cover the cost of Democrats’ next two legislative plans..."









Opinion | Bernie Sanders Runs Out of Billionaires


Spending plans: $4.5 trillion. Billionaire net worth: $4.4 trillion.




www.wsj.com


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## bigmoneytalks (Oct 3, 2014)

MrBlackhill said:


> Most multi-millionaires and billionaires spend money on materialistic things they don't need. Maybe Warren Buffett is the exception, but still to be proven.
> 
> Who needs a $100,000+ car? Who needs a yacht? Who needs a $10M+ house? Who needs a private jet? Who needs $10,000+ jewelry or watch? Who needs $1,000+ cloths? Who needs a $100,000+ party? Who needs a $1,000+ wine/cognac/etc? Who eats at $500+ restaurants? That's not the purpose of life.
> 
> ...


I disagree. I pay 54% tax as I am in the highest tax bracket. Why should the government take more than 50% of my money? And they want to increase it?! This will drive many people away not millionaires but average folks like me...by all means I don't have a lavish lifestyle either. I drive 15 year old car! I also donate generously to my fav charities but I end up paying all of tax which makes my task of saving for retirement and my kids education harder and harder. Even with a high salary. I know this original poster is talking about the ultra rich but this current government is also targeting folks like me. And I read somewhere that 1% of the total population earns more than 400k ...good luck targeting what 300k people to pay for all the crazy spending and mismanagement of tax payers dollars from this current government. It a total red herring of the problems we really have...Rant over. Haha


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

bigmoneytalks said:


> I end up paying all of tax which makes my task of saving for retirement and my kids education harder and harder. Even with a high salary.


Don't try to get me to believe that your taxes is the issue.

All of the people that I know in my family made gross income below $70k each, they had 2 kids, a house, and they were all able to retire before 65.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

bigmoneytalks said:


> I disagree. I pay 54% tax as I am in the highest tax bracket. Why should the government take more than 50% of my money? And they want to increase it?! This will drive many people away not millionaires but average folks like me...by all means I don't have a lavish lifestyle either. I drive 15 year old car! I also donate generously to my fav charities but I end up paying all of tax which makes my task of saving for retirement and my kids education harder and harder. Even with a high salary. I know this original poster is talking about the ultra rich but this current government is also targeting folks like me. And I read somewhere that 1% of the total population earns more than 400k ...good luck targeting what 300k people to pay for all the crazy spending and mismanagement of tax payers dollars from this current government. It a total red herring of the problems we really have...Rant over. Haha


I agree with your position. I think taxes in this country are way over the top, especially since the waste is so high. 

My original point of this thread was to pass along the idea that we should be breaking down all barriers to create more successful people. We have roughly 90,000 people in Canada who have 5-30 M and roughly 10,000 who have >30M. Taxing more will get you squat.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Well, something has to be done bring all that money home from offshore shell companies and tax havens or it's only a matter of time the country will run out of free flowing cash to circulate in the economy.

That's what money printing is for but I'm sure you're all against that too.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I doubt there is anyone who actually pays the posted "tax rate" for their income.

To do so, would mean the person claimed zero personal deductions, and didn't deduct their CPP and EI contributions which aren't taxes.


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