# Forgive Student Debt



## sags (May 15, 2010)

In the US student debt stands at $1.5 Trillion. In Canada it is about $30 Billion.

Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren's plan to eliminate all student debt is meeting with surprisingly little opposition.

I know a young lady who graduated from community college with $25,000 in student debt. She has a job and needs a vehicle. 

She was turned down for a car loan because of her student debt and income ratio.

Student debt is hampering young people and the economy, and the debt continues to rise at a fast rate.

Of course it is still unpaid debt if the government were to shift student debt from the students to the government balance sheet.

I wonder if makes financial sense to park the debt with the government to facilitate young adults spending in a consumer spending driven economy ?

I am surprised there is such little resistance to the proposal that there is a chance it may be implemented.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

A bankruptcy trustee said it cost him $1,000 to take a course when he was in school and the same course cost $7,000 today.

It isn't any wonder students have piled up debt. There is no way they could "work" their way through school with those kinds of costs.

A financial perspective on the effects of student debt.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/07/stu...ortable-conversation-topic-for-americans.html


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Government debt is OUR debt. No way. Post-secondary in Canada is already heavily subsidized by government (=taxpayers). 
Forgive debt before they've even started to work and tried to repay it? Talk about starting out irresponsibly.


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> I know a young lady who graduated from community college with $25,000 in student debt. She has a job and needs a vehicle.
> 
> She was turned down for a car loan because of her student debt and income ratio.


Well, that's simple ... how about pay down your debt then buy a car when you can afford it?


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

True........but there is a cost for doing nothing about the rising debt if it eventually leads to a recession.

I would think an analytic comparison of doing nothing versus absorbing $30 billion in debt would have to be made.

Canada got off lightly in the 2007-2009 recession compared to the rest of the world, but the downturn in the economy still carried a significant cost.

https://www.bankofcanada.ca/2011/03/great-recession-canada-perception-reality/


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

A recent article on the subject. Not too informative because much of the Federal source document was redacted. It wouldn't do to let the plebs, err taxpayers know what is going on I guess.
https://globalnews.ca/news/5707609/canada-student-loan-defaults/


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

You know, Free post secondary is pretty easy to achieve.

All you have to do is take part, $2500 of the child tax credit and invest it for 18 years. YOu get at least 20% return, if not more, each year from the government. The money isn’t income, it wasn’t something you should have banked on, or spent (it’s for the good of the child).

By the time they’re going to post secondary, there’s more than enough money to pay probably at least to a master’s degree if they wanted, maybe a Ph.D, and guaranteed an undergrad degree.

The next thing is the kids have to learn to apply for proper jobs.

This summer, my son got a job that paid $65k/year because he applied for it. One year of school, no work experience. I encouraged him not to get a job as a kid and just enjoy it playing sports and stuff. His buddy, who went to university, came back and applied at his old job he’d had in high school at a fast food restaurant and earned minimum wage. Didn’t even consider looking for a job in his field, it was too easy to go back to what he knew.

With the money my son made, I asked him what his plans were, as it was a lot of money for someone so young. He responded he wanted to get into real estate and start building passive income. So we found him a nice three bedroom apartment in a trendy area for a steal, the best property I’ve found in decades. It’s netting him several hundred dollars a month while in school, without much distraction, certainly not as much as a part time job. Then. Of course there are the scholarships for being at the top of the class...

As for a car, my son’t First one cost $800 and runs fine. It was a diesel Jetta, cheap on fuel. This year he upgraded to a used Mercedes for a couple thousand, also diesel in mint condition. Certainly didn’t need some shiny new car, and he paid cash. Both are very reliable cars. 

Sorry Sags, though I no longer see your posts I’m sure your calling for more free money from the government to support people who don’t know how to make money outside of government subsidized union jobs that shouldn’t exist in the first place, and government handouts. We have too manny welfare cases to begin with, time they face the real world where you have to actually do something to earn your keep, no more handouts from mom and dad to pay your bills, no more handouts from the government from the grandkids to come.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

One of the objections to eliminating student debt is that it is a band aid solution to a bigger problem.

Post secondary education funding in Canada is a mixed bag of government funding, corporate funding, and student funding.

Forgiving the accumulated past debt does nothing to help future students. The entire funding plan of post secondary education would have to be revamped.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> A recent article on the subject. Not too informative because much of the Federal source document was redacted. It wouldn't do to let the plebs, err taxpayers know what is going on I guess.
> https://globalnews.ca/news/5707609/canada-student-loan-defaults/


Student loans can't be included in bankruptcy until 10 years after the student leaves school.

The majority of students must struggle along at least for that long and bankruptcy isn't the best kind of solution.

If we want an educated society with graduates able to enter into a consumer spending economy......we have to figure out a better system.

In some countries post secondary education is tuition free. How do they manage it ?

https://cfsontario.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Factsheet-FreeEducation.pdf


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> If we want an educated society with graduates able to enter into a consumer spending economy......we have to figure out a better system.


Maybe start off with stopping classes in areas that don't have jobs?
Have schools tied in better with job placement in their field of training?


----------



## peterk (May 16, 2010)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Government debt is OUR debt. No way. Post-secondary in Canada is already heavily subsidized by government (=taxpayers).
> Forgive debt before they've even started to work and tried to repay it? Talk about starting out irresponsibly.


I used to be of this opinion, but now I'm on board with Sags.

Obviously the system needs to be completely revamped to not allow so many students to take on debt to fund non-economically helpful degrees in the first place... Probably the real solution is to get rid of government funded loans, and reduce enrollment.

As for current debts, it's not a great situation, but taxpayer dollars being spent on relieving the middle-class 20-somethings' financial burdens doesn't sound like the worst thing in the world... it's probably even a pretty good value for our tax dollars. Especially compared to: OAS payments for middle class seniors, excessive welfare and housing support for the unproductive, environmental assessments, public employees' upper-middle class salaries, free surgeries for octogenarians, etc. 

Give me more smart 25 year-olds with no debt who are ready to grow up and be the next generation of producers and leaders, thanks.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Teach the kids how to manage money and not “go to school, get a union job, spend all your cash and credit on toys and self gratification.” And you’ll have well educated, smart 25 year olds with no debt.

Hate to throw cold water on life, but your not entitled to anything growing up. If you want it, go out and earn it. If you can’t figure out how to pay for your education, you probably wont figure out how to pay for a car, a house, a family, etc. That’s how we wound up with the highest consumer debt ever.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I have a different view of post-secondary education. We used to have a limited number of universities and consequently, the bar was set pretty high in terms of having the grades necessary to make the cut and get in. Then they started opening 'community colleges' which eventually were allowed to morph themselves into universities and grant degrees. WE now have so many universities that the bar is set pretty low in terms of what grades are necessary to make the cut. Basically, anyone who graduated Grade 12 with even just a pass can get accepted somewhere. Then there are all the 'Colleges' that now exist as well, which haven't morphed into Universities yet.

So we now have what is in effect, a three tier system of post-secondary education. An employer looks at a resume with University of Toronto on it or a resume with Algoma University on it and then a third resume with Fanshawe College on it. The first is a top University, the second a lower bar to entry University and the third just a College. Three tiers. But all of them result in student debt. 

It seems as if there is this 'right' to a post-secondary education in some students minds and also in their parents minds. Not many are willing to say, 'you know what, my kid doesn't have the smarts to make it through university, I'm gonna encourage him to learn a trade like carpentry or plumbing.' There also seems to be a definite trend towards taking degrees that do not have a high rate of success when it comes to landing a well paying job once they finish. An Arts degree vs. an Engineering Degree for example. They can't get enough students to take Engineering. Why, because it's too HARD for them. 

We hear calls for free education including post-secondary with parents saying, 'my kids deserve the same chance as any other kid and should not be disadvantaged'. But my response to that is why should they have the same chance if they don't have the grades the other kid does? All giving them a University or College education does is result in lowering the bar to a level where they can pass their courses. It doesn't make them any smarter than they were to begin with.

I am in favour of free post-secondary education for those who can QUALIFY for it academically. Take away the financial barriers that limit a lower income family's child but don't take away the GRADE barriers. You ask sags how do some countries do it and that's the answer. You have to have the grades to get accepted, post-secondary education is 'available' to all PROVIDED they can qualify. 

For example, anyone resident in Scotland can get free university tuition provided they have the grades to qualify. They use a different system but if you look at what their requirements are for a 'foreign student' from Canada, you get an idea of what is required, you can see that here: https://www.ed.ac.uk/studying/international/country/americas/canada 

You will see it would require grades of at least 80% in at least 6 subjects and sometimes 85% in some cases. Those are a MINIMUM to qualify to even apply. Obviously, if enough applicants have grades of over those percentages, they will be accepted first. So, the brightest will get free tuition and those with lower grades won't even be considered. That provides ACCESS to a free post-secondary education to ALL. That is not the same as giving anyone who wants one a university degree by lowering the standards to something almost anyone can pass. That simply makes the degree worthless.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

The prestigious private university model doesn't make sense anymore

They look prestigious because they make lots of money and want to make kids and parents feel prestigious but they aren't prestigious besides the fancy gardens. Everyone can pay with borrowed money and they don't teach anything you can't teach yourself online today. They don't produce anything special anymore - most kids spend the time drinking, frolicking and skipping class - job market knows this.

I find the euro model of practically free post secondary with more emphasis on trades. Canada has a deficit in skilled trades now because we push everyone to be a scholar, and universities are happy to push them through (try reading an art student paper - they're a joke) We need more intellectual property, research like waterloo and blackberry. More focus on practical results and less focus on prestige and profit.

Educated youth is a powerful investment if it isn't spent on fancy gardens and alcohol


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

We have trade skills taught in community colleges and private colleges, but unfortunately unlike Germany we don't have much of an apprenticeship program.

A lot of kids spend the money to go to trade school and then discover there are precious few of the apprenticeship opportunities they need to gain journeyman status.

I agree that Germany looks like one of the best models. Kids are encouraged into different "streams" according to their ability starting in high school.

Go to most high schools today and they don't even teach shop anymore.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Interesting, I outlined a plan to pay for post secondary using government money, but people aren’t happy with that, it would mean sacrificing money they didn’t even have originally. Instead they want other people to sacrifice even more of their money so that their kids can benefit. They can’t be expected to make a sacrifice for their own kids of course, that would be unfair.

All we are doing is allowing people to become addicted to government money.


----------



## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Teach the kids how to manage money and not “go to school, get a union job, spend all your cash and credit on toys and self gratification.” And you’ll have well educated, smart 25 year olds with no debt.
> 
> Hate to throw cold water on life, but your not entitled to anything growing up. If you want it, go out and earn it.* If you can’t figure out how to pay for your education, you probably wont figure out how to pay for a car, a house, a family, etc. That’s how we wound up with the highest consumer debt ever.*


Kids making dumb financial decisions is not "how we wound up" in this situation, though.

Luckily your kids are, I'm sure, above average intelligence, and also have a ruthlessly pragmatic father to help guide, so haven't been victim of the education system.

Many, many are not so fortunate though, and have been thoroughly preyed upon by a governmental education and financial system designed precisely for two things only: To grow public employment and expand their sphere of influence (government's goal), and to extract maximum debt payments (financial system's goal).

Cutting off government funding to loans and reducing enrollment, as well as releasing these current victims out of their debt shackles, would be some first great steps to reforming universities.

I realize that the majority of those advocating for such a thing as student debt relief probably have the exact opposite in mind of what I want. They want more students attending more free schools, getting more useless degrees, and more "education". I want it all unwound, and part of that unwinding would be to save all the millennials (and the current Gen Z) who are royally screwed with student loans.

Of course, that will never happen, any debt relief will come at the hands of a left wing government to further grow their sphere of influence, not to better humanity.


----------



## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

If you make it free, you will have more people wasting their time in post secondary schools. Currently it is a co-payment system. The only one who pays more for post secondary education in Canada, other then the student, is the tax payer. This is the right formula. It ensures that some investment is made by the student/parent to ensure some level of motivation on at least one of those (parent or student). This is critical.

As a taxpayer, I have no problem paying for others in my society to become more productive. I just want to ensure that the productivity part is there since it is the only return on my taxpaying investment. I would be completely against making it free. That would be just wasting taxpayer money.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Hmmm........Chase Bank is forgiving all debt for Canadian credit card holders as they exit the Canadian market.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/chase-bank-amazon-visa-marriott-credit-card-debt-1.5239411


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Meanwhile Capital One turned over all my financial information to a hacker, along with my social insurance number.

More than 1,000,000 other Canadians had their information exposed along with me.

They aren't forgiving balances or even giving away a Tim Hortons coffee for the trouble caused. 

They are giving away 2 years of free credit monitoring which is free at numerous banks, credit cards and websites anyways.....and it is only for TransUnion.

And of course they offer their sincere best wishes.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Teach the kids how to manage money and not “go to school, get a union job, spend all your cash and credit on toys and self gratification.” And you’ll have well educated, smart 25 year olds with no debt.
> 
> Hate to throw cold water on life, but your not entitled to anything growing up. If you want it, go out and earn it. If you can’t figure out how to pay for your education, you probably wont figure out how to pay for a car, a house, a family, etc. That’s how we wound up with the highest consumer debt ever.





Just a Guy said:


> Interesting, I outlined a plan to pay for post secondary using government money, but people aren’t happy with that, it would mean sacrificing money they didn’t even have originally. Instead they want other people to sacrifice even more of their money so that their kids can benefit. They can’t be expected to make a sacrifice for their own kids of course, that would be unfair.
> 
> All we are doing is allowing people to become addicted to government money.


Didn't you say in another thread that you pay for your kids education? What does that teach them?

I don't have kids but I'm fine with paying for public education the same as public healthcare etc. Rather than kids with the richest parents getting the best education it should be the kids who get the best grades or something the kid has a chance to influence. Educated youth results in intellectual property and a prosperous economy

And we should not look down on trades or push kids who would be good at trades into academia


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I’ve got the money to pay for their education, but I never told them I would use it. As they grew up they had to put an effort in and apply for scholarships. I’m not foolish enough to pass up on a guaranteed 20% ROI on my investments either. So far, my son hasn’t even used up the grant portion of his RESP because he’s paid a lot through scholarships. He’s only got one more year in his program, and has to use up the grant portion.

I’d say, It taught him to work hard, he wasn’t entitled to anything but, he was rewarded in the end, because family has to take care of each other no matter what. I also talked to him about how RESPs worked and about the investments I made and how well they did, so It was a good learning experience.

The bigger benefit he got was from the rentals I own right outside his school. He gets free parking right across from the main doors. Probably saves a bundle in parking fees. He, of course, has to check on my tenants there every once in a while or run errands there for me, but that’s a small price to pay. He of course gets more landlord experience too.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

You write it as if he didn't benefit much from you but that doesn't sound like the case to me. Not all kids get a job and RESP fallback from their parents. I paid for everything including clothes from the age I could work and made it out of school debt free - but I would say the quality of what I got out of school probably suffered because I was constantly working several jobs. My siblings had parents cosign student loans that they ended up leaving mostly for parents to pay off. They don't use their education and should have been in trades from the start. I have cousins with engineering degrees who ended up retaining into trades.


----------



## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

I see a few issues: 

- For one, Canadian post-secondary costs compared to American costs is like comparing apples and oranges. Canadian costs are, arguably, reasonable and manageable whereas US costs are ridiculous. 

- I don't think everyone realizes that there are quite a few benefits already for students. (My youngest daughter is in university.) They receive very favorable tax treatment and my daughter gets periodic cheques from government. (I think one is a GST rebate and another is some provincial rebate.)

- University students already tend to come from a privileged sector of society (I realize I'm generalizing.) Every dollar spent to help someone is a dollar that cannot be spent to help someone else. Is this the group in Canada most in need of help?

- What about fairness? Suppose you had a student from a lower-middle-class family who worked his butt off to pay his tuition costs whereas you have a student from a wealthy family who didn't mind pilling up the debt? 

- Again from a fairness perspective. University students, even though they will initially likely face some job challenges will likely become the wealthiest citizens in our country. Is it fair to the waitresses, retail workers, etc. to give this group the breaks?


----------



## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> I’ve got the money to pay for their education, but I never told them I would use it. As they grew up they had to put an effort in and apply for scholarships. I’m not foolish enough to pass up on a guaranteed 20% ROI on my investments either. So far, my son hasn’t even used up the grant portion of his RESP because he’s paid a lot through scholarships. He’s only got one more year in his program, and has to use up the grant portion.
> 
> I’d say, It taught him to work hard, he wasn’t entitled to anything but, he was rewarded in the end, because family has to take care of each other no matter what. I also talked to him about how RESPs worked and about the investments I made and how well they did, so It was a good learning experience.
> 
> The bigger benefit he got was from the rentals I own right outside his school. He gets free parking right across from the main doors. Probably saves a bundle in parking fees. He, of course, has to check on my tenants there every once in a while or run errands there for me, but that’s a small price to pay. He of course gets more landlord experience too.


You've somewhat got me back on to considering RESPs again. I had not particularly considered the perspective of the "secret" RESP, revealed only as necessary, even after the fact, and I had forgotten that it's only the grant+growth money that needs to have associated school bills to be paid for.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Student debt can be anything. If this was ever to move forward I would rather it be tied to admission cost. There are about four possible costs...tuitiion, books, living or residence, and other. I would look at the tuition first and not even touch other.

The costs are increasing at a much higher rate of inflation. I cannot believe what my son paid a few years ago and now for his post graduate, compared to what I paid in the the mid 70`s.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I think a merit based approach is quite acceptable, but would point out a couple of tragic factors.

The good universities are already merit based. Students compete with international students (who pay much more for tuition) for a place in a program.

The above is not to say that universities have some programs which are more competitive than others, and in those programs many more students are accepted than ever graduate.

The burn out rate in university professional programs is quite high, and it is worth noting the failures help fund the successes.

``


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

m3s,

Can’t blame me for making money and taking care of my kids. I outlined a way people can do it without any of their own money, but they’d have to sacrifice their child tax benefit for the child’s benefit. If other parents spend the money on other things, or can’t afford to pay for it, how does that become my issue. If your parents messed up, blame them. I worked three jobs to go to my school, I’m not complaining. I even went out of province, but paid my own way, and didn’t come out in debt.

My kids won’t wind up in debt, won’t be a burden, and won’t use up his grant money (he’ll take it out so he doesn’t lose it) because he got paid so much in his job. I had nothing to do with with his job. They also won’t be begging for UBI. 

My son has a buddy who has one year of university, and only applied to get his old minimum wage job. who’s mistake was that?

I also don’t understand how poor education choices, lack of effort to get a good job, etc. is also someone else’s problem.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

If a student is enrolled in a serious program, they will have no time to work.

Competition to move the next level is always there. Getting straight As isn't enough. Everyone there gets straight As. 

The students have to prove themselves by volunteering as unpaid research assistants etc.

I don't know about other universities, but the cutoff for grades at Western University are in the high 90s and that is no guarantee of acceptance.


----------



## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

sags said:


> We have trade skills taught in community colleges and private colleges, but unfortunately unlike Germany we don't have much of an apprenticeship program.
> 
> A lot of kids spend the money to go to trade school and then discover there are precious few of the apprenticeship opportunities they need to gain journeyman status.
> 
> ...


 The government is not efficient making schools free for everyone would cost tax payers a fortune. The Romans were a lot smarter if someone wanted to learn a trade they would simply work for someone that knew the trade & learn from the best. If someone is able to be in business there doing something right. Most students that go to business school then start a business fail. Those that work in the field learn the craft then start a business have a lot higher success rate.

Now days if I want to learn how to do something I do not waist time & money going to school to learn I simply go to you tube.

Schools teach kids that man can control the climate come on why would anyone spend money for school ?


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> m3s,
> 
> Can’t blame me for making money and taking care of my kids.


Just pointing out that you say as if your kid did it all themselves while at the same time that you looked after them. Not a reality for all or even most kids, although you seem to have a rare balance of support. I would rather see a merit based system that gives opportunity based on the kids themselves instead of their parental situation (even scholarships are based on family income etc)

Then again everything will be covered on youtube soon and presented better than most profs do. Some schools like Harvard even post all their classes online, while others are forcing students to use a closed system for research because they probably realize the internet makes them obsolete. Kind of like how real estate agents protect real time real estate data to keep themselves relevant vs the internet.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I don’t think I ever claimed my kids did it themselves. I’ll always help them out, I found the property that my son bought, talked him through the bank process, etc. They are teaching moments. My kids are probably better positioned to be successful than most adults. It’s the way they were raised.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

One problem is the cost of education is no longer relative to the earning power it will generate.

It might not be the cost of education is too high. It may be that wages are too low.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Sags....I worked all the way through my commerce degree. Only 14 hours a week, more of course during the holidays. Plus another union job in the summer and the part time gig. My son is in the middle of graduate studies in Toronto. He works part time.

It was not just about the money. It was also about a change. 

People make sacrifices for their children. A few years ago I was having coffee in at my mother's retirment home in Vancouver. Struck up a conversation with one of the ladies clearing the table. She was working to help her sons. The family immigrated from Iran years ago when the children were toddlers. 

She went to work clearing tables etc. in order to help put their sons through school. Two in meds, one in dentistry. The last one was finally entering his surgical residency. She was looking forward to retiring again. She said that her husband had a second part time job for a time in order to help their boys through UBC.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Sags tends to be more of the you should sacrifice for his kids and work harder so the government can pay for his kids to go to school for free as opposed to cutting into his DB or jeprodisring his boat. There’s no need for him to save or contribute as long as there are people out there making money.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

lonewolf :) said:


> The government is not efficient making schools free for everyone would cost tax payers a fortune. The Romans were a lot smarter if someone wanted to learn a trade they would simply work for someone that knew the trade & learn from the best. If someone is able to be in business there doing something right. Most students that go to business school then start a business fail. Those that work in the field learn the craft then start a business have a lot higher success rate.
> 
> Now days if I want to learn how to do something I do not waist time & money going to school to learn I simply go to you tube.
> 
> Schools teach kids that man can control the climate come on why would anyone spend money for school ?


You write about making university 'free for everyone' as if that was the only alternative. Making free tuition, post-secondary education, AVAILABLE to everyone does not mean making it 'free to everyone'. It just means making it available IF a student has the grades to qualify. How hard is that to understand? That is the model that exists in many countries where it is 'free'. Free access, not automatic acceptance.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Good luck getting into a top level university in Ontario without high grades. Good luck staying in the program without maintaining high grades.

I know people who went to medical school and there aren't enough hours in the day to complete their required studies and also go to work. 

I would think it is also the same for law school and other serious professions. Maybe the course requirements and work are less vigorous in other Provinces ?

There are other career choices of course, with less onerous study requirements, but they are likely the people who graduate into low paying jobs and can't pay their debt.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> Good luck getting into a top level university in Ontario without high grades. Good luck staying in the program without maintaining high grades.
> 
> I know people who went to medical school and there aren't enough hours in the day to complete their required studies and also go to work.
> 
> ...


The people on these programs with some discipline will be able to pay their student debts off as they are in high demand areas. 
My niece went to Western for her undergrad and then Laurier for her Masters, that was out of province for her too. she graduated without any debt due to parents savings and her choosing good summer intern jobs. The first year she couldn’t get a paying one, so she hustled and contacted businesses to get experience in the area. She ended up getting some amazing job offers right after grad. 

For my kids, we decided our gift to them is a debt free education up to a graduate level. Paid for by us in not just monetary ways. We have been saving for their education since they were born. We will max out the grants and the $50k life time amount plus outside savings. Instead of toys and junk, we started very practically, and when asked, we asked our families to reduce the material things and we would gladly invest the amount for their education. My family went further and bought them a few ‘kids’ stocks such as Disney when they were born. This has grown many times. More importantly, it is not the monetary gift, but the gift of a strong financial education. We have taught them about money since they were little. They are learning about real estate as they helped with rentals, just like I did. They are learning about saving and making wise spending choices which will free up money for them to invest. We used the Disney stock certificates (they were very nice) to discuss compounded , dividends and equities. They are in the habit of putting a fair amount into their further savings. My oldest (13) who will max out her RESP this next year, and will begin investing her own $xx,xxxx into an investment account. This money was money she saved, gifts, and some help from us. The youngest wants to get right in there too. 

My kids know they have the safety of their parents which allow them to ‘fly out fo the nest’ But they have to take part too. My oldest has decided she may want a specialize medical degree. She has the intelligence and work ethic to do . We have tried to help her research the very l No road ahead so she knows what to expect. She has looked up school costs for and undergrad, medical degree, and double specialization. Up to 14 years of higher education. We have didn’t plan for that. We have encouraged take an ‘easier’ and less expensive route. She has responded that she will apply for scholarships and work in the summer and started plan on how to make the shortfall. I worry that she will put too much stress on herself and want her to still be kid. We have told her that we will always be here to support her if she shows the initiative and have the ability. My spouse and I have decided that we would hold off on retirement if we need to. 

We realize that we are in a fortunate position that we can make these choices to help our kids, but don’t think that these weren’t choices that we had to sacrifice in other areas. If I am willing to make these sacrifices, then other parents should too before they expect the tax payers to cover everything. I am totally fine with those in a low income situation where putting money aside is just not an option and the kids have the ability and drive to make it through, then money should not be the barrier. University should be based on ability and drive , and money secondly. 

Also as a side note, regarding porovinicial requirements, The ON one’s are much lower in high school, that universities factor in if you come from provinces outside of ON such as AB and BC, the admissions factor in that the curriculum in ON is easier. Perhaps the problem is the ON education system. It’s driving parents nuts in an that they essentially had to ‘dumb down’ out system so kids could get the same mark as ON kids, and we do it in 12 years.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Funny that you think highly educated people are automatically financially astute. Ive got a family of medically trained people and most of them aren’t that good at financial matters (investing wise). Know a lot of “professionals” that are in debt, living beyond their means as well. Being a smart doctor or lawyer doesn’t make you able to pay your debts either.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

You should also understand that your daughter will have to show proof that she has the financial resources to pay for the medical education to be considered.

The medical schools expect the students to spend all their time and energy on their studies. They know students who have to work end up washing out of the program.

There are only so many "seats" available in the top programs and students have to prove they not only qualify academically, but also have the required financial resources.

Student loans of $250,000 are not uncommon in the professions and not all students qualify for OSAP funding. Many have to get personal loans co-signed by parents.

As to Western's acceptance of high school grades, there is a database of all high schools that ranks them for academic achievement.

(It is for example, well known among the teaching fraternity that Catholic schools give their kids higher grades than public schools in an attempt to place more of their students in post secondary schools. It is accounted for in the high school rankings.)

Applications from out of Province or International students also requires further assessment. 

There are always more applications than seats available and it is the goal of Western to attract the best and brightest from among them.

The "merit" based system already exists at that level of post secondary education. For private colleges and schools..........not so much.

P.S. I hope your daughter fulfills her dreams. If she has the mental capacity, the drive and the financial support all things are possible.

I just wouldn't count on her working her way through school, and I am sure you don't


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> You should also understand that your daughter will have to show proof that she has the financial resources to pay for the medical education to be considered.
> 
> The medical schools expect the students to spend all their time and energy on their studies. They know students who have to work end up washing out of the program.
> 
> ...


We wish for It kids to fulfills their dreams ok. My point was they will never be more than dreams if they don’t learn for themselves and help themselves. We know many many families as immigrants that came here with nothing for their kids in order for them to become surgeons, lawyers, successful business people, ect. The parents all made sacrifices and saved for the kids education, the kids also did that along the way. We won’t expect our child to be working if in a medical program. Maybe other ones. However, we will expect her to look, for other ways to finance her school. That doesn’t happen when you get in, but one should be teaching their kids earlier. 

My daughter won her first scholarship at 10 years old and won $500 for an essay on how to encourage girls to continue in technology. She did it for practice and knows that it will be an expensive ride. Do you know how many scholarships go with out people claiming them? My nephew who comes from a 0.01% family got a $100k scholarship from decent (not top) grade in the US. There was not even financial need, just he applied. Many kids just too lazy. 

There is a lot of aid out there if people took the time to look. Also there are many ways to pay for university. When I was in university, I got a job tutoring high school kids in math. It easily paid double my retail jobs, which I had two while I was in school. My kids are already looking at ways to earn income that will help with their college admissions. I used L think retail jobs and min wage jobs was the way to go. However, upon further reflection I am thinking there are other better ways. For example, we do a lot of community service as a family and my daughter especially the older one really enjoys helping others and organizing things for charities. She asked the earlier this year if there was a way to get money for the work she is doing for the community. At first I said, well that would defeat the point of volunteering. Then she asked if it would help her get into university. We started researching and there are many leadership and community service scholarships that don’t have a financial aid required. Many scholarships are up to $10k. That’s better than what she whole used get minimum wage, and so much more fulfilling for her, and would still help her admissions even if she doesn’t win. 

I do realize that university is very expensive. I grew up in a family that education was one thing that would th hard work, ability and determination, you would find a way.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

PLugging,

Remember, Sags doesn’t understand the concept of earning money other than a union job. It’s impossible in their mind. Scholarships, nope, passive income, inconceivable. Part time work, too strenuous.

The government handout is the only possible solution, everything else is blasphemous.

What they also don’t realize is, not everyone who enters a program is qualified, has the personality or is determined enough to finish it. They don’t wash out because of work, doctors are expected to work long hours, and it’s even part of their rotations in the later years. If they can’t handle a job in their first few years, they probably will wash out as they say. 

Once again, they’re probably talking about something they don’t really know about. My in-laws are all doctors and nurses, my sister dropped out of nursing, not because she had a part time job, but because her patient died on the geriatric rotation.

it looks like you’ve got a great plan, I’m sure your kids will do fine.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> In the US student debt stands at $1.5 Trillion. In Canada it is about $30 Billion.
> 
> Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren's plan to eliminate all student debt is meeting with surprisingly little opposition.
> 
> ...


Commie Sanders and Fake Indian Warren are just buying votes. They have nothing of substance to offer so they have to bribe people.

Your friend can take the bus. Millions do it every day.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Why do kids have to go directly into post secondary? Why not work a few years, earn your tuition and then go to school. Kids who come out of school with huge student loans certainly seem to be setting themselves up for a lifetime of getting things they can’t afford just because they want it now. The concept of delayed gratification has become a foreign concept it seems.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is a continuum in education that is best not broken. That is how the education system is designed. 

Students who quit and work for a number of years before returning could be classified as mature students and there are limitations on the number of openings offered by the university for that category. Students who quit school to work often find it difficult to return.

Isn't that what happened in Alberta ? Kids quit school and went to work in the oil industry. Now they are middle aged, have no education and no job.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> Commie Sanders and Fake Indian Warren are just buying votes. They have nothing of substance to offer so they have to bribe people.
> 
> Your friend can take the bus. Millions do it every day.


It will be the failure of the current capitalist system that drives the voters to them. The rich and powerful got too greedy for too long.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> It will be the failure of the current capitalist system that drives the voters to them. The rich and powerful got too greedy for too long.


Capitalism doesn't fail, but societies will collapse when too much socialism takes hold. And if you think the rich and powerful are too greedy in a capitalist society then maybe you should try living under socialism for a while.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Student loan debt is really a US problem.

Most Student debt in Canada is simply the living expenses because they wanted to go to school out of town.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> Capitalism doesn't fail, but societies will collapse when too much socialism takes hold. And if you think the rich and powerful are too greedy in a capitalist society then maybe you should try living under socialism for a while.


Try telling Canadians they should return their child benefits, Old Age benefits, GIS benefits, CPP benefits, HST rebates and other benefits, because "socialism" is bad.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> Try telling Canadians they should return their child benefits, Old Age benefits, GIS benefits, CPP benefits, HST rebates and other benefits, because "socialism" is bad.


A small amount of socialism works when supported by capitalism. Full socialism always fails.

Just imagine these socialists having power to make laws :biggrin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPLQNUVmq3o


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Last I checked none of the people in the video were running for President.

If you really want to see the competition for Donald Trump and the Republicans check out videos and the twitter feeds of Elizabeth Warren and AOC.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Prairie Guy said:


> Capitalism doesn't fail, but societies will collapse when too much socialism takes hold. And if you think the rich and powerful are too greedy in a capitalist society then maybe you should try living under socialism for a while.


It’s hilarious that Sags calls successful Capitalist “Greedy”. Then, in a different post lists off “free” government money given to people CTB, OAS, GIS, CPP, HST, etc...

And, to cap it off then demands even more money be handed out in the form of things like UBI and forgiving student debt (Like that teaches people anything other that the government will bail you out and you’re entitled to something you’re not.)

I really wish they’d use a dictionary and look up the word “GREEDY”.

Capitalist tend to EARN, Socialists tend to feel entitled to whatever they want and TAKE.

By the way, should we also forgive the student debt for those people who don’t finish a degree? REward people for wasting time in school? I Know guys who spent decades going to school, not for the education, but to hide from the real world. They probably had huge student debt, but they also had classes in Racketball, Bowling, Science Fiction Writers, and all sorts of other useless programs. Why are these even offered as university courses?


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> Last I checked none of the people in the video were running for President.
> 
> If you really want to see the competition for Donald Trump and the Republicans check out videos and the twitter feeds of Elizabeth Warren and AOC.


I wouldn't call those 2 fools competition for Trump. If it's one of them against him Trump will win in a landslide.

However, now that Epstein has conveniently died from Arkancide while under 24/7 suicide watch, maybe Hillary can run again :biggrin:


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I said the capitalists got too greedy and destroyed it. A new form of capitalism will rise from the ashes that is more socially responsible.

When a handful of people own more wealth than the bottom 90% of the population........change is inevitable.

Thus it has always been.......and thus it will always be.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Epstein's death is not going to halt the FBI investigations into the alleged crimes. 

Since his own criminal charges are expunged upon his death, the FBI must be of the opinion there is criminal activity involved with others in his circle of "friends".

An interesting group of friends it is too......Donald Trump, Bill Clinton, Prince Andrew, Alan Dershowitz to name just a few.

It is said there are many wealthy and powerful people having restless nights these days.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I said the capitalists got too greedy and destroyed it. A new form of capitalism will rise from the ashes that is more socially responsible.
> 
> When a handful of people own more wealth than the bottom 90% of the population........change is inevitable.
> 
> Thus it has always been.......and thus it will always be.


But it's always the case that it is imbalanced.
The 80/20 rule can be applied to almost EVERY system.

The thing is that under the other systems there always was a class that had a disproportionate level of wealth.

The issue I have with the "solutions" to this problem of inequity (the problem that has brought about the greatest prosperity the world has ever seen, and it pulling people out of poverty at a rapid rate) is that they're all steps backwards, or will be harmful to people.

There needs to be some change, however a lot of what is being pushed is less socially responsible.
There are groups that are introducing massive systematic discrimination, and that's a problem.
They are trying to silence debate and discussion on these issues.

It's really scary.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> When a handful of people own more wealth than the bottom 90% of the population........change is inevitable.


Under socialism it's 99.999% to 0.001% and the top 1/1000 of the top 1% own everything. Why is that better?

Please provide data and examples to support your argument.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> Under socialism it's 99.999% to 0.001% and the top 1/1000 of the top 1% own everything. Why is that better?
> 
> Please provide data and examples to support your argument.


because of ignorance.

Look at every authoritarian socialist country, they're all horrible places to live.
Venezuela is a great example when the government decides to overthrow capitalism "for the people"


I'm not arguing that our current system is perfect, I'm arguing it's pretty good, and that it seems better than every other system that's ever been tried at scale.

Nobody is actually proposing a better system, they just "raise awareness" that there are issues with the current system.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The top ranked countries in the world have publicly paid post secondary education.

Canada should forgive all past student debt and allow every student to reach their full potential.

Removing the shackles of debt from young people starting careers and businesses will also be good for the economy.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

There have been naysayers for the initiation of every socially responsible program that Canadians enjoy today. 

If we can create all those programs successfully, we can implement free post secondary education. 

In a few years it will be as routine to Canadians as all the other programs.

It is just a matter of the will to get it done.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> Under socialism it's 99.999% to 0.001% and the top 1/1000 of the top 1% own everything. Why is that better?
> 
> Please provide data and examples to support your argument.


Even if your assertion were true, which is isn't, it further demonstrates the spending of the poor is primarily beneficial to the rich.

The key to successfully changing that system failure is to divert the money flowing to the wealthy back into the economy and into the hands of the poor.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

When the government sends out a one time cash benefit to all Canadians, there is a noticeable bump in the GDP.

When CPP/OAS/GIS benefits are mailed out at the end of the month, there is a noticeable surge in economic activity.

Eliminating all student debt would create a net positive effect on government revenues over time, as the money would be free to circulate through the economy.


----------

