# Fort McMurray evacuated due to forest fire



## sags

The whole city of Fort McMurray and surrounding area is under a mandatory evacuation as fire has entered the city. Some homes have been destroyed and the fire is approaching the downtown area.

I hope everyone gets out okay. From what I have read on the CBC Twitter, the RCMP have 150 officers there making sure everyone evacuates. They say 80,000 people had to evacuate.

The roads out were gridlocked for awhile, and some people went to Twitter seeking help as the fire approached. It was posted that everyone was found all right.

Live Global feed here..........


http://globalnews.ca/news/2677885/m...-fire-situation-in-fort-mcmurray-intensifies/


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## m3s

Information is unclear but watching the live stream the 1 highway appears gridlocked both directions and the fire is now meters from the highway. Apparently people turned around because they fire was on the highway?

From the safety of my armchair, it seems like a bad idea to evacuate 70,000 at once when there is only 1 main highway. Lessons will be learned about evacuating isolated cities I'm sure and hopefully not written in blood


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## mrPPincer

> hopefully not written in blood


damn I am with you on that
I have two old friends up there right now


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## humble_pie

m3s said:


> Information is unclear but watching the live stream the 1 highway appears gridlocked both directions and the fire is now meters from the highway. Apparently people turned around because they fire was on the highway?
> 
> From the safety of my armchair, it seems like a bad idea to evacuate 70,000 at once when there is only 1 main highway. Lessons will be learned about evacuating isolated cities I'm sure and hopefully not written in blood




m3 why don't the military fly in to help evacuate?

they're saying tomorrow will be hotter & fire will be even bigger. Reporter saying that during the night wildfires get a bit easier because the night humidity cools everything slightly. But unless the weather changes in the am an out of control wildfire will rage on worse than before, she said. The existing fire raises the ambient temperature much higher.

how can they evacuate 80,000 people on a couple of highways? what are they doing in cold lake, sitting in the safety of their armchairs?


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## dogcom

My sister in law is there and is being evacuated. My son in law is a paramedic and called to see if he can go there and was told that he shouldn't because he had a family.

This is crazy because I first heard this today on the radio on my way home from a great day visiting the Lil'wat museum in Whistler, CN rail yard museum and roundhouse, Britannia mine, Sea to Sky gondola and the Britannia mine. What a shock after such a good day I was having.


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## james4beach

Geez, everyone best wishes and hope you stay safe. That's really scary.


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## carverman

Looks pretty bad from the latest CTV morning edition. A hotel and a gas station went up in flames, so nothing is being spared.
That's all this area needs to add to their misery due to the oil slump crisis. Now, not only will some of them not have jobs but some may not
have homes to return to and whether normal insurance will cover such as disaster..I think not.

The province will have to declare the area a disaster zone and come up with funding to rebuild.
Apparently Trudeau will be flying in as soon as it is safe to do so and see for himself. Rachel Notely will, no doubt, also be there with him.

With heat wave temperatures of 31C, and relatively strong winds, the entire area could go up as the wildfires spread
to engulf the entire area. 



> Bernie Schmitte, forestry manager for Alberta Foresty and Agriculture, says there are 150 firefighters battling the blaze and that reinforcements from across the country have been requested.
> However, Schmitte refuted the idea that the worst of the fire was over.
> "No, the worst of the fire is not over," he said. "We’re still faced with very high temperatures (today), low relative humidities and some strong winds."


My youngest brother lives in the Peace River area of Alberta. I'm sure I will be hearing more information from him this weekend.


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## humble_pie

re Where is the army, it was a rhetorical question. Because even if he knew what the army is going to do - even if he'd made the decision himself - m3 would never be able to breathe a word of it to anyone. Not until the brass would announce from the top. 

one journo says on Global that a formal request to the military has been made & help from the armed forces is expected by friday.

friday? this is early wednesday am. Would there be something wrong with at least one transport plane for evacuation by this evening?

a military transport plane, like the one that flew in the first syrian refugees to Pearson airport with so much fanfare last december.


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## steve41

My youngest son is up there and seems pretty blase about it (pun intended) He evacuated last nite and was worried about which of his 'toys' (ATV, Rifles, fishing gear, cameras, drones) he would take and which he would leave. I talked to him several times on his cell, so phone service has stood up (so far).


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## RCB

humble_pie, the oil cos. have been chartering Westjet flights, evacuating people workers and families, and emptying the camps since early yesterday. I have a family member that works out there.


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## carverman

Fires are under control now..but you just never know if the winds start shifting direction.



> But multiple homes and businesses have already been destroyed, after shifting winds on Tuesday afternoon pushed the flames into the southwest of the city.
> The area of Beaconhill appears to have been hardest hit. Officials say that 80 per cent of the homes there have been destroyed but CTV Edmonton’s Breanna Karstens-Smith is touring the neighbourhood and s*ays there is almost nothing left*.
> 
> “We have yet to come across the 20 per cent that has not been lost. It is completely levelled,” she said.
> “It’s just blocks and blocks of soot, basically.”





> Alberta Premier Rachel Notley said Tuesday the Fort McMurray situation now rivals the Slave Lake catastrophe, in which one-third of the community of Slave Lake, Alta. was lost to by a fire that destroyed more than 500 homes and buildings.
> "In terms of fire, this is our biggest fire evacuation," she said. "This is bigger than Slave Lake."


http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/fires-within-fort-mcmurray-extinguished-officials-say-1.2887111

I think that this calamity just adds to the misery and devastation of that area, not just economically either.

Ft.Mac as the Albertans call it is right in the middle of the oil sands projects, so it remains to be seen how
much damage has been caused to the mining operations as well.
This latest setback is not what Alberta's economy needs right now. federal money will have to become available
to rebuild the town from the ground up as they say.


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## AltaRed

humble_pie said:


> one journo says on Global that a formal request to the military has been made & help from the armed forces is expected by friday.
> 
> friday? this is early wednesday am. Would there be something wrong with at least one transport plane for evacuation by this evening?


I agree. I've never understood why it takes critical agencies like the armed forces, red cross, disaster relief so long to get the finger out. I recognize it takes a little organization but that is what training and disaster plans are about... so that when one hits the buzzer, folks know what they are supposed to do...and do it. It does not take a genius to send in a fleet of water bombers to douse whole neighbourhoods or to get 100 army trucks (or maybe 15 if that is all we have in all of Alberta) on the road or a fuel tanker enroute north AS the evacuation is happening. The press says Alberta Transportation sent a tanker truck late yesterday up the highway to fill tanks on vehicles that had run out of gas. That truck could have been on the highway from Strathcona refinery the minute the evacuation order was issued (a direct call to the Shell, Suncor or Imperial Oil CEO is all that would be required). Every disaster official knows that one of the first critical issues in an evacuation is near empty fuel tanks. Oh well....


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## carverman

AltaRed said:


> I agree. I've never understood why it takes critical agencies like the armed forces, red cross, disaster relief so long to get the finger out. That truck could have been on the highway from Strathcona refinery the minute the evacuation order was issued (a direct call to the Shell, Suncor or Imperial Oil CEO is all that would be required). Every disaster official knows that one of the first critical issues in an evacuation is near empty fuel tanks. Oh well....


You would have thought that they would have a "action plan" after the devastating Slave Lake AB. fires a couple of years ago..but that was before Rachel Notlely, and she has to setup a disaster relief plan after this incident. 
If it was already setup, an investigation is required to find out what worked and what didn't..because this is a huge
forest area and a firestorm could happen again at some point after the town is rebuilt.

Yes, it does take a few hours for emergency crews to respond in any case, depending where they are coming from, as the distances in Northern Alberta are significant.

Fortunately, nobody has lost their lives, (at least so far that we know), and the buses that were packed to the hilt ferried out the residents and their pets.


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## Beaver101

AltaRed said:


> I agree. *I've never understood why it takes critical agencies like the armed forces, red cross, disaster relief so long to get the finger out. I recognize it takes a little organization but that is what training and disaster plans are about... so that when one hits the buzzer, folks know what they are supposed to do...and do it. It does not take a genius to send in a fleet of water bombers to douse whole neighbourhoods or to get 100 army trucks (or maybe 15 if that is all we have in all of Alberta) on the road or a fuel tanker enroute north AS the evacuation is happening. *


 ... reminds me of FEMA, not sure what's the Canadian version is.



> The press says Alberta Transportation sent a tanker truck late yesterday up the highway to fill tanks on vehicles that had run out of gas. That truck could have been on the highway from Strathcona refinery the minute the evacuation order was issued (a direct call to the Shell, Suncor or Imperial Oil CEO is all that would be required). *Every disaster official knows that one of the first critical issues in an evacuation is near empty fuel tanks.* Oh well....


 ... ???? WTF


Thoughts and prayers for those affected there ...


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## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... reminds me of FEMA, not sure what's the Canadian version is.


Well there is something called DART (Disaster Assistance Response Team) that employs the military, but this is AFTER the emergency..earthquake or flood and usually in a foreign country. 

The Canadian version of FEMA for Alberta is called AEMA. 

Each province has a similar disaster team that springs into action once they have been notified that a disaster is in progress.
http://www.aema.alberta.ca/


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## bgc_fan

Seeing as everyone seems to be questioning why it takes so long for a military response, I'll point out some generalities:
1. The province has to make a formal request, before DND responds. Now, that doesn't mean DND can't do staff checks, and make sure that they have people, equipment resources when this situation occurs in anticipation that the Federal government is asked for help; however, DND doesn't move until a request is made. Remember the October Crisis? The Quebec government requested Federal help, imagine what would have happened if the Federal government arbitrarily sent in the army without the request.
2. I already pointed out staff checks. Contrary to popular belief, vehicles are not just sitting around in glass containers with a big hammer that says break glass in case of war. Some are already tasked out, some are in maintenance, and some are otherwise occupied. It is the same with personnel, they aren't sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for something to happen. They are training on exercise, tasked to do some job, or on course. It will take a few days to gather the information regarding the current disposition of resources and determining what is actually available and then freeing up the resources.
3. Provinces do have Emergency Management Agencies, Alberta's is AEMA, they would be the pointy end of the stick and the ones who would be managing things when something happens. The amount of coordination between these agencies and DND will depend how often they work together. I suspect that any training, or simulated exercises between the agencies and DND is minimal due to resource constraints. So there is going to be adjustment while you try to shoehorn two different organizations together for work.
4. There has to be some planning. You can't just fly in soldiers and vehicles and have them sit on the tarmac while the authorities try to figure out what they should be doing. Let's put it this way, what do you think the military can add to this particular fight? Firefighting? Transport out? Traffic control?
5. Yes, there are contingency plans, in particular Op LENTUS, but they tend to be somewhat vague because they don't cover exact situations, i.e. they may state which units would be activated in case something happens in Alberta, but I highly doubt that there is something specifically to deal with a wildfire approaching Fort McMurray from the South. You can't simply say, well they responded this way to a wildfire in Slave Lake, why not the same way in Fort McMurray? Well, for starters, geography is a big deal, access may be different, and the fact that you are talking about Slave LAKE, there is a nice close water source for fire fighting, not quite the same with Fort McMurray. The amount of people is another big deal, we're talking about 80,000 vs 7,000.


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## m3s

AltaRed said:


> I've never understood why it takes critical agencies like the armed forces, red cross, disaster relief so long to get the finger out. I recognize it takes a little organization but that is what training and disaster plans are about... so that when one hits the buzzer, folks know what they are supposed to do...and do it.


The military has many contingency plans (CONPLANS) for these situations pre-written knowing that they happen without warning. I'm in the field, but I know at least one is on high alert I believe for the annual flooding in Kashechewan. Suitable military resources are already based in Edmonton; C-130 Herc tactical air lift and CH-146 Griffon helos which are on high alert for search and rescue (I'm not sure if they ever pre-positioned a CH-147 Chinook out there) DART is always on high readiness and they train with red cross etc

At the lowest levels people see these things happening on the news and already start to prepare themselves. At the highest levels the decisions always seem to be very very slow. Because Canada has so few resources they have to think about a lot of risks, maybe such as not having SAR alert. Although they could potentially prepare another bird+crew in X hours. We have 24/7 ops centers just for coordinating this exact stuff.. I perceive the time delay to be outside the military. There might be some logistical delays as well due to funding etc

There are many things to think about though. Logistics is almost always the limiting factor. The more I think about it though the military is pretty self-sufficient. The Army would tow fuel bowsers so they would be contributors rather than a drain on scarce resources. I'm pretty sure a Herc can fly from Edmonton to Fort Mac and back without needing jet fuel. Panicking crowds and chaotic evacuations are nothing new to the military. They are probably much more experienced in that than local authorities. We train for worse than fires.


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## carverman

bgc_fan said:


> Seeing as everyone seems to be questioning why it takes so long for a military response, I'll point out some generalities:
> 1. The province has to make a formal request, before DND responds. Now, that doesn't mean DND can't do staff checks, and make sure that they have people, equipment resources when this situation occurs in anticipation that the Federal government is asked for help; however, DND doesn't move until a request is made. Remember the October Crisis? The Quebec government requested Federal help, imagine what would have happened if the Federal government arbitrarily sent in the army without the request.


That was a different situation entirely bgc; it was very political and Trudeau Senior had to make sure before he read the WAR MEASURES ACT.

the Toronto snow storm was probably closer to what this disaster represents to the local population. 
Mel Lastman (mayor at the time) couldn't handle the snow removal with his snow removal equipment because it was a HUGE dump, similar to what Buffalo got last winter (or the winter before?) and they called in the army to help shovel the snow. 

The other locally declared disaster was the eastern Ontario ice storm of 1998, where roads and power lines were compromised due to falling trees. 
Some people with medical emergencies had to medevac'd out with army helicopters.


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## nobleea

Getting people out of Ft Mac is not the big issue. Yes, there's traffic delays and people running out a gas (there was a mandatory full tank announced a few days ago). The issue is housing 60-80K people in the other towns and cities. Edmonton is getting over 20K people, probably growing to 30 or 40K. That's a noteable percentage of the population showing up overnight.

Canada doesn't have massive military airlift capabilities. We could probably fly out 1000 people a day at best. But it requires organization. You can't just get on the radio and say that there's some planes arriving if you want to climb on board.

Evacuation is proceeding in a calm orderly fashion. No injuries, no deaths. Nobody is panicking. Most people in the evacuation are saying on social media that the only people using the words 'chaos' and 'panic' in regards to the evacuation are the media themselves.


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## bgc_fan

carverman said:


> That was a different situation entirely bgc; it was very political and Trudeau Senior had to make sure before he read the WAR MEASURES ACT.
> 
> the Toronto snow storm was probably closer to what this disaster represents to the local population.
> Mel Lastman (mayor at the time) couldn't handle the snow removal with his snow removal equipment because it was a HUGE dump, similar to what Buffalo got last winter (or the winter before?) and they called in the army to help shovel the snow.
> 
> The other locally declared disaster was the eastern Ontario ice storm of 1998, where roads and power lines were compromised due to falling trees.
> Some people with medical emergencies had to medevac'd out with army helicopters.


The situation was different during the October Crisis, but it doesn't change the fact that the War Measures Act were invoked based on Quebec premier's request.

Yes, it would be similar to the snow storm in Toronto, and while many people made fun of Mel Lastman, the fact of the matter is that they couldn't handle the snow and emergency vehicles, such as ambulances could not get through the streets. It was a valid life and safety issue. But again, it was done at the *request *of another level of government. The Federal government did not just send the troops in because they thought they were required.

For a fun thought exercise, imagine that DND did arbitrarily send in troops to help with the evacuation. Now imagine that something similar to the High River gun seizures during the evacuation happened, i.e. lets say during the rush of evacuation, rifles and firearms were left scattered around the house and the military were given the extra task to collect them. Could you imagine the backlash on that one? It was pretty bad with the RCMPs, but if it were the federal government acting without Alberta's consent, I'm sure that things would not go well. Of course, this is just a hypothetical and not likely to happen, but there are reasons why you let the provincial government do its business until they ask for help.


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## humble_pie

bgc_fan said:


> Seeing as everyone seems to be questioning why it takes so long for a military response, I'll point out some generalities:
> 1. The province has to make a formal request, before DND responds. Now, that doesn't mean DND can't do staff checks, and make sure that they have people, equipment resources when this situation occurs in anticipation that the Federal government is asked for help; however, DND doesn't move until a request is made. Remember the October Crisis? The Quebec government requested Federal help, imagine what would have happened if the Federal government arbitrarily sent in the army without the request.




thankx bgc fan. Re the october crisis, Trudeau senior invoking the war measures act was not the same situation at all.

since that long-ago october crisis, the army has deployed in quebec on several occasions. For the ice storm that cut off hydroelectric power to montreal & south shore for days, even weeks. For the big Saguenay flood & for countless other small floods that occur every year in quebec.

the army is always, always, always welcome in quebec. In fact a couple years ago residents of the annually-flooding chateauguay river valley were complaining, early in the spring, that the Army had not showed up yet so would they please come on down to chateauguay ASAP.

i remember how promptly the army arrived in montreal during the winter ice storm of 1998. It was only a couple days after the storm began. Montreal is an island with 2-3 million inhabitants. There are a mere eight or nine bridges off the island, ie evacuating by vehicle would be impossible.

within hours of the ice storm cutting power to montreal, vandalism had started. The front windows of a car parked on my street were smashed in by goons using a fallen branch or a tool, for a simple example. Far, far, far more serious were the blocks of darkened, empty & abandoned office towers in downtown montreal. The risks of fire & vandalism were sky-high. 

as i say, there was no possible mass exit from montreal island by vehicle. The risk was fire that would engulf the entire city. Most of the residents would be burned to a crisp (what we are going to do in the event of a nuclear attack i do not know.)

enter, pronto, the Army. We were never so glad to see the army in all our lives. They were wonderful. Soldiers busied themselves with tasks all over the island. Many were clearing the roads by cutting the fallen trees & hauling the pieces to the curbs. All day long, we could hear the chainsaws going, even hear the soldiers calling to each other.

other soldiers picked up medical cases when ambulances could not get through the roads due to fallen trees.

what kind of assistance could the military offer in fort mcMurray? there are tens of thousands of persons stranded in makeshift camps or little villages outside fort Mac. There are said to still be persons stranded in cars without gas along highway 63. They've been told to stay in their cars, but already they must need water & food. Already some probably require medical assistance.

what about the thousands hanging on now, in tiny settlements like lac la Biche, who have no homes to return to? some may not even have jobs to return to? they can't stay in these tiny makeshift camps forever, the military could help to move them on to more permanent locations.

if i hadn't witnessed all those soldiers keeping the peace in montreal during the week or two of the Great Ice Storm - literally saving the city - keeping everybody calm & cheerful - i wouldn't be so sure that the Army has expert disaster relief capabilities. There's far more to do in fort mcMurray than the Red Cross can be expected to handle alone. Very soon, i'm sure, the Army will show up.


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## sags

There were some pretty obvious problems with their evacuation plan, but now is not the time............

One thing I noticed though, is that only yesterday did Alberta apply a "no open fire" ban. It has been tinder dry and a high risk for fire for some time now.


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## bgc_fan

humble_pie said:


> if i hadn't witnessed all those soldiers keeping the peace in montreal during the week or two of the Great Ice Storm - literally saving the city - keeping everybody calm & cheerful - i wouldn't be so sure that the Army has expert disaster relief capabilities. There's far more to do in fort mcMurray than the Red Cross can be expected to handle alone. Very soon, i'm sure, the Army will show up.


I'm not discounting the resources that the Army can bring to bear. It is usually the easiest source of manpower in times of disaster. I'm pointing out that these things take time and you shouldn't expect that deployments happening at a snap of a finger. You've pointed out some possible applications for the military, and they're valid. I'm sure those needs would be evaluated in concert with other agencies to see what the Army should bring and how to employ the resources so they don't aggravate the situation, i.e. I suspect a convoy of military vehicles going in the opposite flow of the evacuation could impede traffic.

Even at the end of the day, the military contribution may be limited. For example, the first instinct that everyone has is to deploy the DART in case of international disaster. For the Ecuadorian earthquake, they sent an advance team, but it was decided that DART wasn't needed. It doesn't mean that they are useless, but it could have meant simply that other agencies already on the ground have the situation in hand and adding the DART to the mix would not help that much.


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## sags

Correction to my post regarding fire bans. The Alberta government ban applied to Provincial parks.

Evidently the decisions are left to the individual counties. Not sure of that is a good idea or not. I am thinking the Provincial government should have the authority to declare a ban Province wide.

As of April 1, 2016

_Several southern Alberta counties have had fire bans in place for weeks already, including M.D. of Foothills along the south side of Calgary’s city limits and Cypress County surrounding Medicine Hat.

Vulcan County has a fire restriction in place, while *16 other municipalities have fire advisories*.

Fire bans, restrictions and advisories are managed by individual counties in Alberta. As each county assesses its current wildfire risk, more restrictions could be added while others get lifted.

_


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## humble_pie

bgc_fan said:


> ... but there are reasons why you let the provincial government do its business until they ask for help.



is it being suggested here that Rachel Notley should have asked for help no later than yesterday pm? that was when the nature of the fire changed so dramatically.

i'm sure m3s is correct when he says the DND has communications centres & radar systems monitoring every millimetre of canada 24/7. The DND would probably have known more about the fire at Fort Mac than Ms Notley herself.

yet this morning the 2 key federal ministers were saying that they were standing by to assist "if asked."


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## sags

We shall see what the analysis reveals, but it appears early that local authorities were complacent about the danger of the nearby fire spreading.

As I recall, a CMF member (Peterk maybe) posted days ago there was smoke in Fort McMurray from the nearby fire.

Days later there is a mass evacuation. That raises some legitimate questions.


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## bgc_fan

humble_pie said:


> is it being suggested here that Rachel Notley should have asked for help no later than yesterday pm? that was when the nature of the fire changed so dramatically.


If that is the turning point, then maybe so; however, based on this article, it states that a Memorandum of Understanding was signed with DND regarding use of SAR assets. That would indicate that there was already some talks between the two levels of government before that. Maybe it was put into place in case things got worse, or it was just put into place. Either way, some formal request has to be made. Maybe it was only made this morning, which would explain the press conferences regarding Federal aid in the matter.


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## Eclectic12

humble_pie said:


> ... why don't the military fly in to help evacuate? ...
> this is early wednesday am. Would there be something wrong with at least one transport plane for evacuation by this evening?


With the Fort McMurray International Airport reported closed at 11:30am Wednesday and fire fighters trying to protect areas around the airport ... it is not clear landing on Wednesday evening is possible.

What's the next closest airport?




humble_pie said:


> ... is it being suggested here that Rachel Notley should have asked for help no later than yesterday pm? that was when the nature of the fire changed so dramatically.


So far, the references I can find for requests to help are a Tuesday 4pm call into the Edmonton fire department and a request to BC who can supply pumps/hoses but not fire fighting personnel.

Meanwhile Manitoba has offered four water bombers and Newfoundland two.


It seems weird that Wednesday would be described as a potentially worse day yet Notley planned to fly in at mid-day and is quoted as saying the talks with the Feds were about work to be done after the fire is under control. Is this the help that was asked for?

Cheers


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## nobleea

Eclectic12 said:


> With the Fort McMurray International Airport reported closed at 11:30am Wednesday and fire fighters trying to protect areas around the airport ... it is not clear landing on Wednesday evening is possible.
> 
> What's the next closest airport?


Several oilfield operators have their own private air strips in the area. A couple of them are able to handle 737's and other jet aircraft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_the_Fort_McMurray_area


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## Eclectic12

Is the wiki info old?

The wiki list has only the closed Fort McMurray International Airport and Long Lake as asphalt, where Long Lake is suposed to be a helipad at 05 × 162 feet. Some of the others are showing as longer distances but as gravel or water for the runway surface.


Cheers


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## carverman

nobleea said:


> Getting people out of Ft Mac is not the big issue
> Canada doesn't have massive military airlift capabilities. *We could probably fly out 1000 people a day at best.* But it requires organization. You can't just get on the radio and say that there's some planes arriving if you want to climb on board.
> 
> Evacuation is proceeding in a calm orderly fashion. No injuries, no deaths. Nobody is panicking. Most people in the evacuation are saying on social media that the only people using the words 'chaos' and 'panic' in regards to the evacuation are the media themselves.


You forgot one important thing in a forest fire are..smoke so thick you cannot see very far and for pilots flying planes that could
be disaster as one plane could crash into an hour even taxi-ing the runway. Forest fire fighting requires special skills with water bombers
which are already flying around in that area dumping water on the fire scooped up from a nearby lake(s).


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## carverman

nobleea said:


> Several oilfield operators have their own private air strips in the area. A couple of them are able to handle 737's and other jet aircraft.


In a dense forest fire area, I doubt that any jets will be allowed to takeoff or land for safety factors.


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## m3s

An airport is not necessarily required for military aircraft. C-130H from Winnipeg can land on a dirt strip will being shot at, let alone smoke. They should be reserved for if ground evacuation is not available/possible though

I've seen references to the ice and snow storms, but the army was called in to assist fight wild fires in Saskatchewan just last year. One of them was just interviewed on CBC radio saying they are ready and waiting for the word..

Soldiers wrap up operations in Saskatchewan wildfire zone

The high readiness construction engineers who are equipped to build camps happen to be based in Cold Lake.. I imagine the local authorities will used existing buildings/arenas but 80,000 is a lot of people to bed down


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## humble_pie

sags said:


> We shall see what the analysis reveals, but it appears early that local authorities were complacent about the danger of the nearby fire spreading.
> 
> As I recall, a CMF member (Peterk maybe) posted days ago there was smoke in Fort McMurray from the nearby fire.
> 
> Days later there is a mass evacuation. That raises some legitimate questions.




speaking of peterk we have not heard from him but assume he is alive, well, breathing & healthy but probably managing several crises all at the same time with only a phone, no other device.

do all remember how peterk was talking a year or 2 ago about buying a house in fort Mac? then as the alberta energy picture worsened, he changed his mind & committed his savings to HISA accounts instead. How lucky is that.

in other good news, a baby was born yesterday evening in one of the oil companies workers' camps north of fort Mac. Not to a regular camp dweller, but to a member of the hospital team that was evacuated out of fort Mac yesterday afternoon. The mother went into early labour but she had, with extraordinary foresight, picked exactly the right team to have an emergency baby with (ie the hospital medics.) How lucky is that.

no deaths or even serious accidents so far. How lucky is that.

so touching, the fort Macians who keep thanking others, caring for others, saying how grateful they are to have their families alive. How heroic is that.


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## m3s

nobleea said:


> The issue is housing 60-80K people in the other towns and cities. Edmonton is getting over 20K people, probably growing to 30 or 40K. That's a noteable percentage of the population showing up overnight.


That's something they could ask the military to assist with. I imagine they already have



nobleea said:


> Canada doesn't have massive military airlift capabilities. We could probably fly out 1000 people a day at best. But it requires organization. You can't just get on the radio and say that there's some planes arriving if you want to climb on board.


Yea we have an entire expeditionary wing of people who specialize in coordinating that stuff on high readiness.. They are the ones who go on advance to Ecuador etc and who coordinated the flights to Nepal, Philippines etc..



nobleea said:


> Evacuation is proceeding in a calm orderly fashion. No injuries, no deaths. Nobody is panicking. Most people in the evacuation are saying on social media that the only people using the words 'chaos' and 'panic' in regards to the evacuation are the media themselves.


Sounds about right. Looks like panic on the news but any of my friends out there are posting pictures Facebook so it can't be that bad. Seems like their employers are looking after them


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## humble_pie

m3s said:


> Looks like panic on the news but any of my friends out there are posting pictures Facebook so it can't be that bad.



i think it's the other way around. I think the worse the catastrophe the more they post on social media. In aleppo & deir el zour right now, they're posting. The aleppo fires are as bad as fort Mac, maybe worse. Plus they've had years of such fires. Plus they're being bombed & shot at continuously. They're still posting.


----------



## m3s

That or they don't even realize the potential danger they're in.. I was thinking how advantageous a dual sport motorbike with panniers and 500km autonomy would be

But I would have already grabbed my bug out bag and left last week if I wasn't required to be there


----------



## Eder

I have a lot of friends in Ft Mac...the guys up there are not pussies and they'll suck it up later and get on with life.


----------



## zylon

One thing I've always liked about Alberta, my signature notwithstanding.

Okay, there are two - I also like horses.



free image host


----------



## nobleea

Eclectic12 said:


> Is the wiki info old?
> 
> The wiki list has only the closed Fort McMurray International Airport and Long Lake as asphalt, where Long Lake is suposed to be a helipad at 05 × 162 feet. Some of the others are showing as longer distances but as gravel or water for the runway surface.
> 
> 
> Cheers


The Shell Albian Sands aerodrome in Ft McKay is a long asphalt runway.
There's one in Primrose as well, but that's a couple hours away.


----------



## m3s

Apparently Rachel Notly flew to Fort Mac herself, tweeted a photo of the smoke from the air, and then declared state of emergency an hour later and requested military assistance.

CAF had prepositioned 4 CH-146 Griffon helos and C-130 Herc to Cold Lake in anticipation. Additional helos and transports are on standby


----------



## AltaRed

The Calgary Herald has more detailed information than any other news outlet. There has been a good response from DND amongst others. The weather is not cooperating yet. Strong west winds is just what they don't need....the fire is along the south and west sides. As of a few minutes ago, winds at the Fort Mac airport were WNW50 gusting to 67 km/h as the cold front starts to pass through.


----------



## humble_pie

m3s said:


> Apparently Rachel Notly flew to Fort Mac herself, tweeted a photo of the smoke from the air, and then declared state of emergency an hour later and requested military assistance.
> 
> CAF had prepositioned 4 CH-146 Griffon helos from Edmonton in anticipation




4 helicopters to start with sounds perfect.

i hadn't realized, until bgc fan explained it this morning, that we live in a country where each provincial premier has to specifically invite the Army to assist when a disaster happens. I'd always thought that assistance was unilaterally a federal decision.

there must be gray zones, though, where the armed forces are always on duty irregardless which province. National defence. Patrolling the arctic & the high arctic. The navy, the coast guard.


----------



## m3s

I think of it as a matter of jurisdiction. The air force has "jurisdiction" to actively monitor and police the air but the army wouldn't step on civil authorities jurisdiction. They army could support the lead agency if requested. I haven't seen any gray zones

Safety Canada apparently set up a Government Operations Center with representatives from all agencies. I think we called it the NOC at the Olympics and that might be what it's based on


----------



## sags

It is scary to listen to fire authorities describe this fire as "wicked", "nasty"........."seeking new fuel sources".

They describe it as if it is alive and circling and changing direction while plotting it's next move to stymie fire fighters.


----------



## sags

The highway south to Edmonton has been closed and vehicles that have been waiting to go are being turned back. Apparently the fire has crossed the highway to the south of Fort McMurray.

The fire is approaching the Fort Mac airport.

View attachment 10010


Live feed at the CBC..............http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/breaking/fort-mcmurray-wildfire/


----------



## humble_pie

m3s said:


> I think of it as a matter of jurisdiction. The air force has "jurisdiction" to actively monitor and police the air but the army wouldn't step on civil authorities jurisdiction. They army could support the lead agency if requested. I haven't seen any gray zones




ok, no gray zones. Among all the law enforcement agencies - air force, army, navy, RCMP, provincial security forces, municipal police - the air force does come out as the autonomous heavyweight though, since no other agency has its own fllying squadrons.


----------



## m3s

humble_pie said:


> the air force does come out as the autonomous heavyweight though, since no other agency has its own fllying squadrons.


makes sense for a single agency to have central control in a huge country with very limited assets. most Griffon helos are loaned to the army day to day but the air force can re-role them anytime

Calgary Herald is posting the most details and even sat imagery from NASA Aerial photos show scope of Fort McMurray fire


----------



## Eclectic12

m3s said:


> I think of it as a matter of jurisdiction. The air force has "jurisdiction" to actively monitor and police the air but the army wouldn't step on civil authorities jurisdiction. They army could support the lead agency if requested. I haven't seen any gray zones


I agree on the jurisdiction ... though I am not so sure of the example. If the air force where to start dictating to the the commercial airlines/airports without an outside force attack that would be seen as interference.

The point of the invitation AFAICT is to make sure those with justification are making the call instead of a military coup. The old "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely".


I am not sure why with the challenges as well as the possible deteriorating conditions the request would not have been made yesterday but it is what it is.


Cheers


----------



## m3s

Eclectic12 said:


> If the air force where to start dictating to the the commercial airlines/airports without an outside force attack that would be seen as interference.
> 
> The point of the invitation AFAICT is to make sure those with justification are making the call instead of a military coup. The old "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely".
> 
> 
> I am not sure why with the challenges as well as the possible deteriorating conditions the request would not have been made yesterday but it is what it is.


The media is now reporting that the air force was considered if highway 63 wasn't reopened during the evacuation, but it wasn't necessary. Still the helos could have been evacuating people sooner.. like maybe hospital patients?

Canadian air force commander is dual hat as the Canadian NORAD region commander though.. and he sure can dictate commercial airlines if they approach Canadian airspace without a flight plan or deviate from it, or violate airspace etc


----------



## carverman

Eclectic12 said:


> I agree on the jurisdiction ... though I am not so sure of the example. If the air force where to start dictating to the the commercial airlines/airports without an outside force attack that would be seen as interference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point of the invitation AFAICT is to make sure those with justification are making the call instead of a military coup. The old "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
Click to expand...


What? this is civilian air space man! 
The Airforce can't muscle in just because there is an emergency of some sort, like the entire town going up in flames, in this case. 

Any involvement of the military and miltary/airforce equipment/SARs requires co-ordination and an official requisition for help from the civilian
emergency systems authority set in place. 

The media hasn't informed us of what went on and what was decided and why the evacuation was done by highway instead,
but I expect that the local authorities in Ft. Mac probably gave the order to evacuate as early as possible, 
and there might have been a forest fire siren or some such going off steadily as a reminder, 
to the residents to gather your precious belongings, pets, and make haste to get out of the fire zone for their own safety.

One can carry a lot more in a pickup truck/SUV than in a plane seat. 
Probably most of the Ft.Mac inhabitants bought their vehicles before the oil price sag, and weren't about to leave them behind either,
as they were still committed to make those payments on the vehicle.

In a disaster on the scale of this one, the regular auto insurance may not be able to pay for all of the burned vehicles,
left behind, although the comprehensive part of their auto insurance policy would or should cover a wildfire event.


----------



## humble_pie

m3s said:


> Apparently Rachel Notly flew to Fort Mac herself, tweeted a photo of the smoke from the air, and then declared state of emergency an hour later and requested military assistance.
> 
> CAF had prepositioned 4 CH-146 Griffon helos and C-130 Herc to Cold Lake in anticipation. Additional helos and transports are on standby




we don't know for sure but good evidence suggests that Notley first requested military assistance tuesday evening, only hours after the fire turned worse & the fort Mac mayor had ordered evacuation of all residents.

the good evidence is your own minister of defence. Apparently Harjit Sajjan was in germany attending a conference. Several media reported that on wednesday morning - wee hours of wednesday in ottawa - he answered a question about the fort mMurray fire by saying that the Alberta premier had already requested military assistance the previous evening (tuesday evening), his DND was ready to assist.

another piece of evidence is buried in the Global live coverage logs. Sags had a link in his opening post to this thread. On tuesday evening, a Global journo reported that alberta had already requested military assistance.

i think it's OK/normal for a political leader to escalate assessment of a dangerous situation to a state of emergency after flying to observe firsthand. But i trust the defence minister's statement (above) & i do believe that Ms Notley sought DND help on tuesday, only hours after the fire raged out of control.

m3 somewhere you have said that air force helicopters could have airlifted out the hospital patients & staff. But the fact is that they *were* airlifted out on tuesday afternoon, all of them, to one of the oil companies' work camps north of fort mcMurray. This was a very early stage of the evacuation.

whose helicopter made those medical rescue trips? somewhere in the news i've read that the RCMP has planes of its own! i've also read that all the patients & medics have now been flown to hospitals in Edmonton. Must have been those RCMP helicopters again.


----------



## zylon

*Definition of "disgusting PoS"*


free image host


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## carverman

Alberta has declared a province wide state of emergency. Shell and Suncor oil sands have shut down production, not that they are threatened by the fire which is many kilometers away, but in respect of the families that have to be evacuated.
The Athabaska oil sands area is huge, 141 thousand sq kilometers. 

The distance from Grande Prairie (the nearest big population centre) to Ft. Mac is 751km. That is roughly the distance between Winnipeg and Thunderbay.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Zylon, 
Yes there are far too many of these morons like Blake Siefken around. 
This particular moron seems to spew a lot of sh^t.
The comments section of CBC also seems to attract them like flies.


----------



## Plugging Along

zylon said:


> free image host


Disgusting. I hope he gets fired from EP media where he works. Apparently, his boss supports him.


----------



## zylon

The ignorance of some people is absolutely astounding.

On another forum, someone has been harping about "firebreaks" in wooded areas.

Are-You-Serious?

I estimate that for a firebreak to be effective in a situation like this, it would need to be a perimeter of at least 5km - I'll let you do the math as to how many hectares that would be. After the trees are removed, the perimeter would need to be mowed to dirt every autumn at least, and maybe twice per year.

Can you imagine the outcry from tree huggers if such a firebreak was contemplated?
- not to mention the howling about "wasting my tax dollars".



uploading pictures

*The above photo of Ft McMurray predates construction of the new bridge.*


> ... the Athabasca River bridge network represents
> the Alberta government’s $236 million
> commitment to increase safety on this section
> of Highway 63 in Fort McMurray, including:
> 
> • $26 million for the new Grant MacEwan
> Bridge,
> • $60 million for the Steinhauer Bridge
> (with Franklin Avenue tunnel west,
> • $150 million for the Athabasca River
> Bridge (includes the Franklin Avenue
> tunnel east).
> 
> http://www.transportation.alberta.c...roduction/Fact_Sheet_Grant_MacEwan_Bridge.pdf


----------



## carverman

zylon said:


> On another forum, someone has been harping about "firebreaks" in wooded areas.
> 
> Are-You-Serious?
> 
> I estimate that for a firebreak to be effective in a situation like this, it would need to be a perimeter of at least 5km - I'll let you do the math as to how many hectares that would be. After the trees are removed, the perimeter would need to be mowed to dirt every autumn at least, and maybe twice per year.
> 
> Can you imagine the outcry from tree huggers if such a firebreak was contemplated?
> - not to mention the howling about "wasting my tax dollars".
> 
> *The above photo of Ft McMurray predates construction of the new bridge.*


Fire breaks are not always effective, depending on how strong the winds are blowing. Spruce tree embers can be carried by the wind to land in areas that are well after the fire breaks. 

While 5km seem to be a bit much, a firebreak like the one that would be needed to protect towns in heavily forested areas would be very expensive to create and maintain. Grass fires are bad enough, but when you have
mature spruce trees blazing, the heat generated can melt roof shingles at least half a kilometer away.


> In the thinned strips about the width of a football field, crews left most of the trees with a diameter greater than 12 inches at chest height. As a result, the trees in the thinned areas were spaced far enough apart that a fire could not easily move from tree to tree in the branches.


However, I think that after this wildfire disaster, the insurance companies and the civil authorities will insist that a fire break around the town is created and maintained. of course, if another wildfire of this scale ever occurred again, the smoke that will choke and kill, depending on which way the wind is blowing, will still force another evacuation..although the property loss will not be anywhere the scale of this one.


----------



## sags

Boreal forests are designed to burn every few decades. It provides a natural rebirth of the area.

What is unusual is placing natural gas and oil facilities in the area of such natural phenomena. 

How we mitigate the danger is an open subject, especially as drought conditions continue to get worse year over year.

Likewise, hurricanes and tsunamis cause no natural danger, until we populate the areas or build nuclear plants at the edge of the ocean.

In all cases, be it living on the ocean, beside a volcano, deep into a forest, on an earthquake fault line........we accept the risk and hope for the best.


----------



## sags

Firebreaks can be effective when combined with the practice of lighting fires at the edge of the new firebreak and having them burn towards the existing fire. That removes potential fuel from the existing fire to continue.

Success depends on the wind speed and direction though, and I believe in this fire the wind is high and keeps changing direction.


----------



## fraser

My understanding is that this fire is still out of control. The only thing that will apparently help is a change in the weather. Fire breaks are fine but the wind is causing this fire to jump. My daughter's rental home is probably up in smoke. The fire was raging on the next street, well across the river from the original fire.

The issue is not just Fort Mac. It is tinder dry in areas close to Edmonton and Calgary. A lightning strike or a careless smoker of camper could start something similar in the southern part of the province.


----------



## Koogie

Plugging Along said:


> Disgusting. I hope he gets fired from EP media where he works. Apparently, his boss supports him.


The cowardly little **** soon issued a retraction....


Blake Siefken
‏@BlakeSiefken
I am so sorry for my inappropriate #FortMacFire tweet earlier today. Although my intent wasn't to insult, I did and it was wrong.


----------



## zylon

sags said:


> Firebreaks can be effective when combined with the practice of lighting fires at the edge of the new firebreak and having them burn towards the existing fire. That removes potential fuel from the existing fire to continue.
> 
> Success depends on the wind speed and direction though, and I believe in this fire the wind is high and keeps changing direction.


That's likely the best solution.

A few years ago I saw video of controlled burns being done in Montana.

They found that if a controlled burn is done every 3 to 5 years, depending on how fast regrowth occurs, the fire was of short duration with low flames, burning off grass, brush, small trees, dead wood, but leaving the larger, healthy trees to stand with no damage; just a bit of scorching around the base.

But god help the fire chief who starts such a burn near a populated area, and the fire gets away from him.


----------



## carverman

Latest update...still not under control. Some video footage from residents..is comparable to driving into HELL.
Some descriptions relate it to a "perfect storm"..an inversion of air layers.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?playlistId=1.2888764


----------



## RCB

85,000 hectares now. 1/3 of Canada's oil offline per National Post.


----------



## AltaRed

CBC's live blog is the place to be http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/breaking/fort-mcmurray-wildfire-may5/ Barely saved the airport this morning as the fire blew through there. on its way east and southeast.


----------



## steve41

I talked to my son this AM. He and his buddies evacuated south to a camp site at Wandering River, well clear of the fire. His main concern was that they were running low on beer. Oh to be young again.


----------



## sags

We have 2 nieces who evacuated from Fort McMurray to oil camps in the north, and a friend who flies from Ontario to Alberta and works 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off.

He was home and due to go back on Monday.........called the company and they told him to come up on Tuesday, so he went out there as everyone else was leaving.

Maybe they have their own airfield and he is a millwright so maybe they needed him there ?

Otherwise, I have read that everything is shut down.


----------



## humble_pie

.

a tragedy of historic proportions. Albertans posting in this thread seem to understand that a watershed canadian event is unfolding in their own front yard. For every fort mcMurrayian, the firestorm of 2016 will, sadly, become his or her own personal 9/11.

BMO is first off the block to guesstimate insurance claims at $9 billion. Will one or two insurance companies go under from the weight of claims?

at this moment i can't even begin to imagine the cost of rebuilding the city. 

medical & social service experts are invoking widespread stress, depression & PTSD as a result of firestorm trauma.

GLAD: wild rose party leader Brian Jean reports that "Mac Island, hospital, City Hall, Provincial Building, Casman Centre all fine AT THIS TIME [thursday afternoon]. Very good news."

GLAD: Jean himself as a tirelessly positive leader in the burning city, in spite of the fact that his own home burned down yesterday & his family's three-generation Fort McMurray business has been completely destroyed.

SAD: firefighters working door-to-door to check for missing stay-behind persons & to save each house from encroaching fire, are discovering pets that got left behind. But their decision is to ignore such abandoned pets. Has to be to ignore such abandoned pets. The overloaded firefighters simply don't have time, resources or energy to look after them.


----------



## carverman

RCB said:


> 85,000 hectares now. 1/3 of Canada's oil offline per National Post.


Offline due to shutting down and not being destroyed by the fire, I hope. "Big Oil" may even use this as an excuse to raise oil prices and 
gasoline. happened when hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans in 2005. However, as in any disaster of these proportions, there aremore losers (the people displaced)than winners.


----------



## m3s

humble_pie said:


> m3 somewhere you have said that air force helicopters could have airlifted out the hospital patients & staff. But the fact is that they *were* airlifted out on tuesday afternoon, all of them, to one of the oil companies' work camps north of fort mcMurray. This was a very early stage of the evacuation


The fact that everyone was evacuated safely by civil authorities is commendable. The military should be a last resort for extreme circumstances but it certainly would have been justified here. I read hospital patients and oil camps were evacuated by 8 WestJet Boeing 737s from Calgary. WestJet says they are keeping the 8 Boeing 737s on standby to assist.

WestJet has always been an exceptional company. I don't know if they took legal risks to conduct medevacs from a crisis. They basically did what the military trains to do which is impressive. Looking at how unpredictable the fire is I'm surprised they didn't use the Rescue Hercs. They can fly in adverse conditions if things suddenly went from bad to worse..

Here's some dash cam video from a night shift worker who was woken up late Wildfire evacuee's video captures his harrowing escape


----------



## humble_pie

^^

westjet wouldn't have had any legal issues with evacuating the hospital patients & staff though. Because all the fort Mac hospital medics travelled with their patients, the whole time. You can't get better medevac than that, when your own doctors & nurses are on board the same aircraft as yourself as patient!

true medevac is airlifting sick or injured parties when there are no doctors around. It's wonderful the air force & other agencies take pains to train their flight personnel in the basic medical/surgical procedures they will have to carry out by themselves, at least enough to stabilize the patients for flight.


----------



## humble_pie

*another story about heroes*

.
Paul Spring, president of fort mcMurray's Phoenix Heli-Flight, tells how he & staff had to quickly flee their hangar near the fort Mac airport, as fire advanced.

the Phoenix crew fled so fast they had to abandon a brand-new plane undergoing technical upgrades. They didn't even have time to top up their diesel tanks - lifeblood for their helicopter business - which they would tow with them to a new location.

newly established at a hangar 100 kilometres south of fort mcMurray, Spring says his seven helicopters are flying emergency rescue missions round the clock. They are not even charging for their services, they're working as crisis volunteers.

“No one is charging for anything, even all the helicopters,” he says. “You’ve just got to do it and get it done.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...t-saved-fort-mcmurray-family/article29903185/


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

The cleanup and insurance costs ahead are hard to comprehend.
These maps at Macleans show the extent of the fire (May 4, 5) and its size relative to several Canadian cities.
http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/how-big-is-the-fort-mcmurray-fire/


----------



## humble_pie

what will happen to all those thousands of people who have mortgages on what used to be their fort Mac homes but now are mortgages on a pile of cinders & ash? do such former homeowners have to continue paying on their mortgages?

i suspect the answer will be Yes. Wondering next what strategies will spring up as ways to off the mortgage or end the responsibility.

then wondering what the banks will do with the defaulted mortgages. The banks won't have any real estate properties to possess. All they'd have is a disappeared mortgagee & a plot of blackened earth ...

hmmmn surely things can't be as bad as this?


EDIT: one solution might be for the banks to take up the insurance payments & cancel the mortgages in return. This would surely lead to a whopping loss for the banks involved.

we've already had one mortgage refugee in the forum. She & husband were skipping back to england, abandoning an underwater house & writing off the down payment they had made ...


----------



## Eclectic12

m3s said:


> ... Canadian air force commander is dual hat as the Canadian NORAD region commander though.. and he sure can dictate commercial airlines if they approach Canadian airspace without a flight plan or deviate from it, or violate airspace etc


 ... which would be his jurisdiction, would it not?

If Notley was saying as quoted that she was talking to the Feds about rebuilding then a reporter indicated the air force had shutdown the Fort McMurray airport to start a military aircraft evacuation that Notley was not aware of and had not asked for - that would be the opposite of all the instances I can recall where the requests have come from the group with jurisdiction to have the military take a role.

If the military has carte blanche, why are they always waiting for requests as any actions I am aware of that cross justification lines have civilian authority requests where a lot of the discussion is what type of help is being asked for.


Cheers


----------



## Plugging Along

humble_pie said:


> what will happen to all those thousands of people who have mortgages on what used to be their fort Mac homes but now are mortgages on a pile of cinders & ash? do such former homeowners have to continue paying on their mortgages?
> 
> i suspect the answer will be Yes. Wondering next what strategies will spring up as ways to off the mortgage or end the responsibility.
> 
> then wondering what the banks will do with the defaulted mortgages. The banks won't have any real estate properties to possess. All they'd have is a disappeared mortgagee & a plot of blackened earth ...
> 
> hmmmn surely things can't be as bad as this?
> 
> 
> EDIT: one solution might be for the banks to take up the insurance payments & cancel the mortgages in return. This would surely lead to a whopping loss for the banks involved.
> 
> we've already had one mortgage refugee in the forum. She & husband were skipping back to england, abandoning an underwater house & writing off the down payment they had made ...


Based what I observed during the big Alberta flood, people were still had to pay their mortgage payments for their flooded homes. Many banks however did offer 'relief' by allowing people to skip payments. I believe it was case by case basis and people had to contact their banks. 

Those who had insurance were generally okay, but in many cases lots of people had to refinance some of the rebuilds. In the case of the flood, many of those had to add rescilrncy measures in order to be insurable in the future. The insurance companies would not pay for this, so many had to get higher mortgages. 

I am guessing for these fires, most will be a complete rebuild. Hopefully, people have the right insurance, insured their houses for the replacement value, not just purchase value. Otherwise they will be on the hook for that too. 

I also guess since SOLE has been declare, the DRP (disaster recover program) will be able to assist. However, thre are still many people from the flood that haven't seen a dime of this yet. 

It's heart breaking to see this happen in my province. I have friends who have been impacted. It will be a very long road to recovery.


----------



## RCB

humble_pie, that's what insurance and bank liens against a house are for. Either you rebuild with the insurance money and the bank still has an asset-backed mortgage, or the insurance pays out the mortgage, I would assume.


----------



## Plugging Along

RCB said:


> humble_pie, that's what insurance and bank liens against a house are for. Either you rebuild with the insurance money and the bank still has an asset-backed mortgage, or the insurance pays out the mortgage, I would assume.


Yes and no. The insurance will pay out the mortgage. However, if they decide to rebuild, and the insurance only covers the mortgage portion, they will need to pay up for the additional cost not insuranced. I truly hope that all the insurers step up and not try to get out this. During the floods, many insurance companies do not cover overland flooding (it was on the policy). A few stepped up right away and agreed to cover it even though they didn't have too. A few others it took a lot pressure from media, and the public to get them to cover it.


----------



## humble_pie

RCB said:


> humble_pie, that's what insurance and bank liens against a house are for. Either you rebuild with the insurance money and the bank still has an asset-backed mortgage, or the insurance pays out the mortgage, I would assume.



but insurers don't pay out the full amounts of what a house is insured for. There's a formula or formulas that permit them to calculate the lower amount. 

insurance companies aren't too forthcoming about this discount. I've never experienced the effect. I only learned about the discounted value of the insurance when i asked specifically about it, after a family member suffered a serious fire & discovered that their reimbursement - although they were insured for max value - would be only about 2/3 to 3/4 of the appraised value of what had been destroyed.

it's heartening to see Plugging's account of how the insurance companies manned up after the calgary floods though. Some not so willingly, says Plug, but in the end they came around. That was a good precedent.


----------



## zylon

*Convoy waiting to head south*

One of the convoys assembled north of Ft Mac this morning, waiting for the go-ahead for the trip south.


image hosting over 10mb


----------



## humble_pie

Plugging Along said:


> It's heart breaking to see this happen in my province. I have friends who have been impacted. It will be a very long road to recovery.



heartbreaking is the word. There will be delayed stress reactions for years to come. Hang in there Plug, it's people like you who are pulling alberta through.


----------



## zylon

how do you print screen


----------



## carverman

zylon said:


> how do you print screen


So it appears that the fire is still not under control this morning. Unless they get some rain soon, it could keep on burning and burning.
28 water bomber I heard working around the clock and at least 1100 fire fighters with 400? from Ontario to join them and others from other provinces and the US states.

This fire can be compared to an Armageddon monster. 

The insurance industry is up for a lot of loss on for this one.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/fort-mcmurray-insurance-cost-1.3568113


----------



## peterk

Made it to Calgary after midnight last night on an evac plane out of Shell and spending 3 days with minimal food and no shower at my mine site. Sounds like my apartment is most likely spared, GF got all the important stuff cleared out anyways so I don't care all that much, others are much worse off.

Lots of strange thoughts...Wanna talk about it but don't have the energy. Going out to eat breakfast at a restaurant now and to buy some socks and stuff.

Thanks for all your kind words already.


----------



## sags

Normally the insurer would pay for the rebuilding costs, but that assumes a static or rising home value market.

Fort McMurray experienced a huge housing bubble for years and prices reached very high levels. The past year or so the prices have declined a lot, so that is a different scenario to deal with.

I would assume that for homes that were worth less than the mortgage, the insurer will pay the replacement costs and the homes may remain underwater in the mortgage.

I was considering moving to Ft. Mac a couple years ago so our son could find some work, and mobile homes were selling for $350,000.

They were not even new mobile homes, but they were located in one of the mobile home parks and ready to live in. 

Problem is the land was leased and a new mobile home could probably be purchased for $150,000.............so would the insurer pay out a $300,000 mortgage on it ?

Our niece bought a home a couple years ago at the peak of prices and it is probably be worth considerably less today. Again.......it would be cheaper for the insurer to pay to rebuild.

A devastating fire after a run up in real estate and then a precipitous decline.........is going to put how the insurers handle it in uncharted waters I think.


----------



## sags

From everyone on CMF........we are happy to hear you are safe and sound Peterk............


----------



## carverman

Plugging Along said:


> Based what I observed during the big Alberta flood, people were still had to pay their mortgage payments for their flooded homes. Many banks however did offer 'relief' by allowing people to skip payments. I believe it was case by case basis and people had to contact their banks.


I believe that the Calgary floods was treated as "force majeur" in the insurance industry. .."Plugging" 


> Definition of force majeure
> 1 : superior or irresistible force
> 2 : an event or effect that cannot be reasonably anticipated or controlled — compare act of god


What is not known and probably will be extremely difficult now to determine is the exact cause of the fire..atmospheric condition (lightning) or human..(smoker throwing butt out the window of a vehicle/or campfire, or not putting out a campfire properly). Wasn't there a province wide fire ban before it happened? 

Definition of force majeure
1 : superior or irresistible force
2 : an event or effect that cannot be reasonably anticipated or controlled — compare act of god



> Force majeure translates literally from French as superior force. In English, the term is often used in line with its literal French meaning, but it has other uses as well, including one that has roots in a principle of French law. In business circles, "force majeure" describes those uncontrollable events (such as war, labor stoppages, or extreme weather) that are not the fault of any party and that make it difficult or impossible to carry out normal business. A company may insert a force majeure clause into a contract to absolve itself from liability in the event it cannot fulfill the terms of a contract (or if attempting to do so will result in loss or damage of goods) for reasons beyond its control.





> Those who had insurance were generally okay, but in *many cases lots of people had to refinance some of the rebuilds*. In the case of the flood, many of those had to add *rescilrncy* measures in order to be insurable in the future. The insurance companies would not pay for this, so many had to get higher mortgages.


 rescilrncy ..is that the same as Resiliency? Resilience?


> I am guessing for these fires, most will be a complete rebuild. Hopefully, people have the right insurance, insured their houses for the replacement value, not just purchase value. Otherwise they will be on the hook for that too.


I think the insurance industry will be going through an self induced overhaul after this fire..the estimated damages are in the billions (as much as 9 billion according to the CBC article above..and with this kind of payouts for those that had the 'right kind of insurance', it will be very costly.

The insurance industry will probably not allow a complete rebuild of the town, until a fire break is established around the town..similar to installing sprinklers in a commercial building.


----------



## sags

How could protection be supplied for all the gas and oil infrastructure in the area though.

Fire protection for the entire area would be a massive undertaking.


----------



## fraser

My daughter and family are in Edmonton. There is a good chance that their home in Ft. Mac. has gone. Three of their friends have lost their homes however all four families are safe-as are others.

I have absolutely no doubt that Ft. Mac will rebuild. It is an amazing town with a public spirit like we have never seen any other community. This is their second fire. The first was in an apartment building a few years ago. The response, at that time, by people in the area was amazing.

It was good to see our Premier on TV last night giving her evening update. She is very satisfied at the response/assistance that we are getting from the Federal Gov't and of course from other Provinces, from private industry, and from individual citizens.

If you get a chance, take a look at Rex Murphy's commentary on CBC's The National from last night. It was excellent.

I think one of the reasons that public spirit is so high in Ft. Mac is that many people came to town to escape high levels or unemployment in other areas, to better their financial situation, or to provide a better life for their respective families. This is town of pro active doers, people who take the actions necessary to get on with or improve their lives. I am in no doubt that Ft. Mac will be 'back' as it were.

The other concern is that there are a number of communities that are on the cusp. Dry conditions, a lightening strike, and some bad weather conditions could mean disaster for them. Some of these communities are extremely close to urban areas.


----------



## carverman

sags said:


> Normally the insurer would pay for the rebuilding costs, but that assumes a static or rising home value market.
> 
> I would assume that for homes that were worth less than the mortgage, the insurer will pay the replacement costs and the homes may remain underwater in the mortgage.


Hard to say in the Ft. Mac case. If the mobile homes/trailers were on leased land, then more than likely just the cost of replacement.



> Problem is the land was leased and a new mobile home could probably be purchased for $150,000.............so would the insurer pay out a $300,000 mortgage on it ?


I doubt it very much. 20 years ago, I was looking at a mobile home in a mobile home park that was on leased property. While the home was sufficient and affordable to me at the time (after a brutal divorce), the land it was sitting on was leased and the landlord could order the owner of the mobile home off his property given a months notice, as well as raising the customary land lease rent payment after the yearly lease was up.

When I mentioned that to my bank, they told me that they could not give me a conventional mortgage for it (20 years etc) because it was leased land and a trailer at that. Only a personal loan up to the limits of my credit rating and salary.

The other problem was to sell it, if the time came to sell. Not everyone wants to live in a trailer park.



> A devastating fire after a run up in real estate and then a precipitous decline.........is going to put how the insurers handle it in uncharted waters I think.


I think that after the losses because of the Calgary floods and other natural disasters, and the Ft. Mac wildfire losses, the insurance industry is going to a) increase premiums a lot, b) limit the coverage on some causes of fires or floods....as I mentioned "force majeure' clause can be inserted in the fine print to get around or limit payouts due to/caused by forest fires..only accidental fires may be covered, which means that in another natural disaster event in the future..the unlucky ones may have to appeal to the province for a special rebuild fund/cheap loan.


----------



## Plugging Along

humble_pie said:


> heartbreaking is the word. There will be delayed stress reactions for years to come. Hang in there Plug, it's people like you who are pulling alberta through.


I was heavily involved with the flood recovery. My city has been sending assistance. For me personally, it's not stressful, but having gone through this before, the evacuations are really like a sprint. The rebuilding is like a marathon. Many are providing support now, but when all the media and news dies down, many will forgot. Those who will have to run the marathon of rebuilding will be doing to with a cheerleading squad.


----------



## sags

Some pundits have criticized the Liberals for their "contingency fund planning" given Canada has been in surplus for several months.

Well that money will come in real handy right now.

There is no monetary reason that anyone in Ft. Mac should suffer financially from this disaster. We have the cash and people need jobs so rebuilding Ft. Mac can begin as soon as possible.

Many kudos to PC interim leader Rona Ambrose, who was the first to appeal to Justin Trudeau personally to match any contributions to the Red Cross and provide whatever help is needed.

After an emotional statement by Ambrose, PM Trudeau crossed the floor to give her a hug. There is much respect in Ottawa these days between Rona Ambrose and Justin Trudeau.

View attachment 10026


----------



## Plugging Along

peterk said:


> Made it to Calgary after midnight last night on an evac plane out of Shell and spending 3 days with minimal food and no shower at my mine site. Sounds like my apartment is most likely spared, GF got all the important stuff cleared out anyways so I don't care all that much, others are much worse off.
> 
> Lots of strange thoughts...Wanna talk about it but don't have the energy. Going out to eat breakfast at a restaurant now and to buy some socks and stuff.
> 
> Thanks for all your kind words already.


Welcome back Peter and lags you are safe. In case you didn't know or you need some support, there resources that have been set up in calgary. Also please make sure your register with the Red Cross if you haven't done so with your location that will help keep the communications going. Also, you will want to do that in case you need to make claim. 

I am happy to personally you a coffee or anything you need, even socks.


----------



## Eclectic12

carverman said:


> So it appears that the fire is still not under control this morning ...


The reports yesterday afternoon were bad as the fire was reported at self-sustaining with fire tornadoes in several spots.
http://www.livescience.com/45676-what-is-a-firenado.html

The comment was that better weather would have helped five days ago or so. Now the main hope of it ending is when it runs out of fuel.


Cheers


----------



## carverman

Plugging Along said:


> Welcome back Peter and lags you are safe. In case you didn't know or you need some support, there resources that have been set up in calgary. Also please make sure your register with the Red Cross if you haven't done so with your location that will help keep the communications going. Also, you will want to do that in case you need to make claim.
> 
> I am happy to personally you a coffee or anything you need, even socks.


I could use a Timmies and some socks too...how did you know "Pluggin"...
send them to:
Carverman, Ottawa, Ontario, <my incognito address>

Nevermind, i just bought 3 pairs at my local CTC, and Wilson too..size 10-13.
It seems these days they are trying to sell something besides tires. :biggrin:


----------



## Eclectic12

m3s said:


> The fact that everyone was evacuated safely by civil authorities is commendable ...


It is still commendable ... but apparently, there were two fatalities.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/teen-k...eing-fort-mcmurray-fires-identified-1.2890666


Cheers


----------



## ykphil

carverman said:


> I could use a Timmies and some socks too...how did you know "Pluggin"...
> send them to:
> Carverman, Ottawa, Ontario, <my incognito address>
> 
> Nevermind, i just bought 3 pairs at my local CTC, and Wilson too..size 10-13.
> It seems these days they are trying to sell something besides tires. :biggrin:


Glad to know you made it through this stressful event. In times of need, it is heart-warming to see all the support available from the whole community. I was displaced by the floods a few years ago, and we were amazed at all the help we got, financial and otherwise. On top of the financial assistance in form of grocery gift cards, many restaurants offered free meals, and not just cheap fast food. My most memorable meal was at Notable, a high-end eatery, where we were welcomed by the owner who told us not to look at prices and we could order anything from the menu, no if's and but's. Needless to say, he got my business for years to come.


----------



## zylon

*It's only 100 km from Anzac to La Loche, SK
- that's all those folks need is a fire of their own.*





free screen capture software


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> After an emotional statement by Ambrose, PM Trudeau crossed the floor to give her a hug. There is much respect in Ottawa these days between Rona Ambrose and Justin Trudeau.
> 
> View attachment 10026



ambrose looks happy enough but check out the faces of the PC members all around her ...


----------



## humble_pie

unisox
.


----------



## sags

Scary thing to read that the fire was jumping "several kilometers at a time".........Impossible to get a handle on a fire that is unapproachable due to extreme heat and smoke and jumping around all over.

Rain........they need rain and lots of it.


----------



## carverman

zylon said:


> It's only 100 km from Anzac to La Loche, SK
> - that's all those folks need is a fire of their own.



The same fire? Is it spreading that much. if it becomes as big as Ft.Mac, then it will a very bad disaster for Alberta in 2016. 
Hard to believe that conditions are so tinder dry that fires can start anywhere.

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...mes-destroyed-in-beacon-hill-in-fort-mcmurray


----------



## carverman

humble_pie said:


> unisox
> .


Those don't look like my size.:biggrin:


----------



## humble_pie

carverman said:


> Those don't look like my size.:biggrin:



they're knit to order so size can be accommodated. Would you be liking the colours though.


----------



## zylon

*Ft McMurray crises map*

Zoom in to see details up close.
This is from May 5 - don't when it will be updated.

http://www.google.org/crisismap/2016-fort-mcmurray-fire


----------



## m3s

That's pretty cool

During the winter I got into digitizing sat imagery for OpenStreetMap. One of the tutorials I watched showed how during the Nepal Earthquake they were mapping the damaged buildings and roads etc. It's cool to think that someone on the other side of the world could be helping in a very useful way



> When there is a humanitarian crisis, such as the Nepal earthquake, OpenStreetMap (OSM) volunteers from around the world rapidly digitize satellite imagery to provide maps and data to support humanitarian organizations deployed to the affected countries.
> The Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team (HOT) coordinates that effort, partnering with relief organizations to focus map editing on the places most in need. HOT provides detailed and accurate maps (i.e., the road network, villages, buildings, etc.) very quickly, so humanitarians can locate people at risk and deliver goods and services to the areas that need them most. HOT is the bridge between the OSM community and the humanitarians.
> OpenStreetMap servers, editors and geodata tools enable HOT to offer these free map and export services to the humanitarian community. The OSM community support for these efforts also is impressive, mobilizing thousands of volunteers to make edits to the map.


I just checked the HOT list and Fort McMurray isn't there.. OSM seems slow to catch on in Canada


----------



## m3s

humble_pie said:


> SAD: firefighters working door-to-door to check for missing stay-behind persons & to save each house from encroaching fire, are discovering pets that got left behind. But their decision is to ignore such abandoned pets. Has to be to ignore such abandoned pets. The overloaded firefighters simply don't have time, resources or energy to look after them.


Apparently Air Canada is now evacuating pets. Flights full of pets. With WestJet having medevac'd the hospitals days ago, competition is a good thing to have


----------



## zylon

*Off Topic*


free image uploading

ADDED:
I wonder if the cause of the fire was blamed on farting cows and the Athabasca Oil Sands?

"Before the arrival of Europeans in the late 18th Century, the Cree were the dominant First Nations people in the Fort McMurray area. The *Athabasca Oil Sands* were known to the locals and the surface deposits were used to waterproof their canoes. In 1778, the first European explorer, Peter Pond, came to the region in search of furs, as the European demand for this commodity at the time was strong. Pond explored the region farther south along the Athabasca River and the Clearwater River, but chose to set up a trading post much farther north by the Athabasca River near Lake Athabasca. However, his post closed in 1788 in favour of Fort Chipewyan, now the oldest continuous settlement in Alberta."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_McMurray


----------



## sags

The good news is that insurance companies pay the cost of rebuilding or repairing a home. Home prices in Fort McMurray have fallen more than 9% in 2016 alone, but market prices are not applicable.

The bad news is that insurance companies don't have a good record from the Slave Lake fires. 

They offered one guy $280,000 and he hired an independent appraiser and eventually received $770,000. That is quite a difference.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/ca...ons-for-fort-mcmurray-evacuees-378432071.html


----------



## peterk

Confirmed from a driveby in the convoy this afternoon - my apartment is still standing! Also confirmed by zylon's awesome link to google earth, although it's out of date.


----------



## carverman

Apparently from the latest news, the Ft.Mac wildfire is a monster that is hard to control and continues to grow.
What also is worrisome is the new wildfire that has started around Ft. St.John in BC just across the border from Alberta in the Peace River District.
How did that one start?



> The wildfire is currently sitting at 17,000 hectares and is zero per cent contained. It is burning 60 kilometres northeast of Fort St. John. The fire crossed into Alberta late Thursday night, pursued by B.C. firefighters. B.C. is leading the fight so Alberta crews can focus on Fort McMurray.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/alaska-highway-bc-wildfire-1.3569248


----------



## zylon

*Warning: language not suitable for delicate ears*

Evacuating from Fort Mac on a Hercules 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eemin7DNvYg&feature=youtu.be



> "Then kiss your *** goodbye because we are probably going to hammer right into the ground."


----------



## fraser

We moved to Alberta 16 years ago. We love it. And I liked doing business here. It feels like we have lived here all our lives. Move back to Ontario or BC? Never even considered it when we retired even though we were constantly asked this question by friends and relatives.

My daughter is not sure if their home in Ft. Mac. has gone. They have been living/working in Edmonton for the past six months. So at the moment she has her infant son bundled in the pick up driving to Athabasca with a truck load of food, children's clothing, diapers, strollers that she has collected for friends (two children and 9 months pregnant) who have been displaced and temporarily living in a mobile home in Athabaska. She spent the last few days contracting people and picking up donated items. Here in Calgary my wife is off to pick up children's clothing and will buy some children's clothing/supplies from the nearly new shop. Tomorrow we take to Edmonton and our daughter will get it to those who need it.

This is not by way of bragging. This activity is absolutely par for the course in Alberta. Many people are doing exactly this. From individuals working independently to large organizations to the corner store that has a box on the counter. There is a long list of retailers in Edmonton who are providing discounts, some as much as 75 percent, to those who have been evacuated and have proof of a Ft. Mac. address...a DL is fine. This will not be a one week special. This needs to go on for several months.

We have seen this before in other places but never, ever to the extent that we see it in the recent past and the present in Alberta. Slave Lake was the same, as was the Calgary flood.

And I know that all Albertans are extremely appreciative of the effort and contributions that those in other provinces and even countries are making to assist in this ongoing disaster. So for those that are contributing in some way...hats off to you!


----------



## zylon

> My daughter is not sure if their home in Ft. Mac. has gone.


http://www.google.org/crisismap/2016-fort-mcmurray-fire

Type the address into the box "Enter a location".
- then zoom in using + at bottom left.

The map is from May 5, but I'm not aware that any more houses burned down after the image was taken.


----------



## m3s

peterk said:


> Confirmed from a driveby in the convoy this afternoon - my apartment is still standing! Also confirmed by zylon's awesome link to google earth, although it's out of date.


Not that you won't have a lot to deal with but it must be really nice to be a renter at this point! What happens to people's salaries if their work is affected? I suppose salaried workers will get paid as usual but what about contractors or those paid by the hour? Make sure you keep good records and receipts for everything.. insurance companies have a tendency to drag things out if you don't


----------



## carverman

fraser said:


> This is not by way of bragging. This activity is absolutely par for the course in Alberta. Many people are doing exactly this. From individuals working independently to large organizations to the corner store that has a box on the counter. There is a long list of retailers in Edmonton who are p*roviding discounts, some as much as 75 percent*, to those who have been evacuated and have proof of a Ft. Mac. address...a DL is fine. This will not be a one week special. This needs to go on for several months.
> 
> We have seen this before in other places but never, ever to the extent that we see it in the recent past and the present in Alberta. Slave Lake was the same, as was the Calgary flood.
> 
> And I know that all Albertans are extremely appreciative of the effort and contributions that those in other provinces and even countries are making to assist in this ongoing disaster. So for those that are contributing in some way...hats off to you!


Good thing that the evacuees can rely on the kindness of strangers. 

According to the TV news I heard yesterday, the Alberta gov`t evacuee relief fund is $1275 per family (adult?) and $500 for each child. Not sure if that's one time, or if it's just to get them started. but that is no where enough.



> Every adult evacuee will receive $1,250 in emergency stipends, Notley said, while dependents will get $500 each.


----------



## carverman

zylon said:


> http://www.google.org/crisismap/2016-fort-mcmurray-fire
> 
> Type the address into the box "Enter a location".
> - then zoom in using + at bottom left.
> 
> The map is from May 5, but I'm not aware that any more houses burned down after the image was taken.


I heard on the news that the downtown core was not touched much by the fire and is basically intact. Is this true?


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

zylon said:


> *Off Topic* - The Great Miriichi Fire...


Perhaps off topic. Nevertheless interesting. Your article caused me to do a few searches and to find this pdf paper by Martin Alexander of past fires 1825-1938. Without the fire suppression support and mobility (roads & vehicles) that exist these days, it is obvious that loss of life was almost a given (see Table 1). In those days it came down to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

https://www.firesmartcanada.ca/images/uploads/resources/Alexander-Lest-We-Forget.pdf


----------



## m3s

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Perhaps off topic. Nevertheless interesting. Your article caused me to do a few searches and to find this pdf paper by Martin Alexander of past fires 1825-1938. Without the fire suppression support and mobility (roads & vehicles) that exist these days, it is obvious that loss of life was almost a given (see Table 1). In those days it came down to being in the wrong place at the wrong time.


----------



## fraser

This fire is out of control. It will remain out of control. It is headed for the Sask. border.

The downtown core has some minor damage according to authorities. The water treatment plant, Provincial Building, Hospital, and other infrastructures have been reported to be in good condition-no damage. Have not heard anything about the new rec. centre though. 

According to the officials, the ONLY thing that will stop this fire is a change in the weather conditions. Force of nature. 

Northern BC has some similar fires, with potential evacuations. Their challenge is identical, just fewer people/populated areas in the path of the fire.


----------



## zylon

*Fort McKay now under voluntary evacuation order*

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...-tense-evacuees-wait-for-new-convoys-saturday


----------



## m3s

So Air Canada was caught price gouging after the evacuation (tripled their price and only flew those who would pay it) while West Jet medivac'd hospital patients and oil workers, flew in emergency supplies and first responders for free, and kept aircraft on "alert" in military fashion. After public shaming, Air Canada is offering a "partial" refund. Wow


----------



## humble_pie

m3s said:


> So Air Canada was caught price gouging after the evacuation (tripled their price and only flew those who would pay it) while West Jet medivac'd hospital patients and oil workers, flew in emergency supplies and first responders for free, and kept aircraft on "alert" in military fashion. After public shaming, Air Canada is offering a "partial" refund. Wow




it's almost impossible to believe this. I don't mean m3's reportage as a source, i mean it's almost impossible to believe that AC would s.t.o.o.p to something so disgusting.

makes me so furious i'd like to see canadians boycott air canada 4ever.


----------



## m3s

I've been trying to find actual sources besides the media. It's unclear what WestJet did for free and what they were chartered to do, but it seems clear they jumped into action before the politicians could decide whether military assistance was required, and worried about the paperwork later. Whereas Air Canada charged surge pricing and couldn't deviate from an automated computer system for days..


----------



## humble_pie

the possibility that air canada "only flew those who would pay it [surge pricing]" is sickening.

i don't want to imagine the scene. That dark-as-night smoke, those huge black clouds, those trees by the side of the highway exploding into flames higher than skyscrapers, those sparking embers landing on the cars as frightened drivers tried to creep southwards in evacuation ... then the air canada ticket desk says to a terrified family You can't Pay? So GFY"


----------



## bgc_fan

Regarding Air Canada, I will take them at their word: basically that they never changed their pricing. Last minute airline ticket purchases are always sold at a premium. Westjet probably overrode whatever default pricing scheme that they had in place whereas Air Canada didn't.

A tongue in cheek comment: maybe they thought they were Uber.


----------



## mrPPincer

If that's what air canada did (surge pricing) at a time like this the CEO should be making a public apology or out looking for a job right now.

In contrast to AC's behaviour, the nearby first nation reserve's gas station, on the suggestion by the owner to the reserve CEO, who immediately agreed, are offering free fill-ups.


----------



## m3s

I've seen many accounts of free gas, free food, highly discounted rooms etc. I get that the airline industry legally "gouges" with their "automated systems" and that they have expenses and that nobody purposely surged the price.. they still failed miserably to use any common sense or realize this was not "business as usual"


----------



## mrPPincer

> they still failed miserably to use any common sense or realize this was not "business as usual"


exactly, AC not exactly leaving a good impression for sure, but I'd always liked westjet better since inception anyways.


----------



## scorpion_ca

Air Canada addresses accusations of price-gouging during Fort McMurray evacuation

http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/air-...ing-during-fort-mcmurray-evacuation-1.2891081


----------



## dogcom

I found out today that my brother lost his house to the fire. Luckily the tenants were fine but they don't have insurance. He is living somewhere else in Alberta so he is fine and has plenty of resources and had a high rank in the military before he retired to the private sector.


----------



## zylon

image hosting no sign up


----------



## humble_pie

fraser said:


> We moved to Alberta 16 years ago. We love it. And I liked doing business here. It feels like we have lived here all our lives. Move back to Ontario or BC? Never even considered it when we retired even though we were constantly asked this question by friends and relatives.
> 
> My daughter is not sure if their home in Ft. Mac. has gone. They have been living/working in Edmonton for the past six months. So at the moment she has her infant son bundled in the pick up driving to Athabasca with a truck load of food, children's clothing, diapers, strollers that she has collected for friends (two children and 9 months pregnant) who have been displaced and temporarily living in a mobile home in Athabaska. She spent the last few days contracting people and picking up donated items. Here in Calgary my wife is off to pick up children's clothing and will buy some children's clothing/supplies from the nearly new shop. Tomorrow we take to Edmonton and our daughter will get it to those who need it.
> 
> This is not by way of bragging. This activity is absolutely par for the course in Alberta. Many people are doing exactly this. From individuals working independently to large organizations to the corner store that has a box on the counter. There is a long list of retailers in Edmonton who are providing discounts, some as much as 75 percent, to those who have been evacuated and have proof of a Ft. Mac. address...a DL is fine. This will not be a one week special. This needs to go on for several months.
> 
> We have seen this before in other places but never, ever to the extent that we see it in the recent past and the present in Alberta. Slave Lake was the same, as was the Calgary flood.
> 
> And I know that all Albertans are extremely appreciative of the effort and contributions that those in other provinces and even countries are making to assist in this ongoing disaster. So for those that are contributing in some way...hats off to you!





a profound thank-you for posting this. And thankx to zylon, plugging, noblea, peterk & other albertans who've posted here to let us know in the ROC how it's all going on ground zero.

magnificent is not an adequate word to describe the cooperation & the courage & the sheer stamina of every albertan involved in this shocker.




.


----------



## zylon

*Dawn's early light*

List of road cams on Hwy 63
https://www.amaroadreports.ca/highways/63


*Supertest Hill north of Ft Mac:*


image uploader


----------



## zylon

~Edmonton Journal 

"For the first time in Syncrude’s nearly 40 year history, it is pulling all three cokers at its Mildred Lake site off-line and evacuating all employees from its mining and upgrading operations, officials said Saturday.

"But they’re being forced to leave their herd of 300 bison behind. “Syncrude has left as much food and water as possible,” said spokesman Leithan Slade. The bison live on a reclaimed mine at the site 40 kilometres north of Fort McMurray. Their pens are surrounded by mines and other cleared areas, which should provide a buffer if flames reach the facility.

http://edmontonjournal.com/business...cmurray-fires-force-further-oilsands-shutdown


----------



## RCB

My brother lives in Ontario, but works out there for Imperial. He was on his 10 day rotation out when the fire began. His flight back in is today. Skeleton crew, all they are doing is fire breaks.

After several days of relief that he was not there, my stomach will be in knots now because of this monster.


----------



## humble_pie

the abandoned bison story does not sound good but i guess there was no alternative. I guess there's some reason why they would not set the bison free.

they're leaving the creatures penned up? with "enough" food & water? while the fire is expected to reach the suncor site later today? it's also expected that the big firebreak zone around the mine will protect not only the mine but also the bison?

oh dear. Burning embers can blow in the wind & land on trapped creatures, even if flames do not reach them. 



.


----------



## m3s

RCAF sends in Chinooks










Apparently Russia offered to send their water bombers and specialists, but we're too good to even reply


----------



## mrPPincer

m3s said:


> Apparently Russia offered to send their water bombers and specialists, but we're too good to even reply


well that sucks, would have been a great bond-building to let them lend a hand


----------



## Plugging Along

Just as a side note I found out on another site that people can donate 190 air miles for a $20 donation to the Red Cross. 

Normally this isn't allowed. If people have a random number of points this might be a good use.


----------



## peterk

Re: Bison

Set them free and probably half would find their way down into the mine, a tailings pond, or on the highway, causing death/chaos, death/environmental non-compliance, and death/interference with the evacuation, respectively.

Never fear though, the fence posts are wood and would burn, allowing escape. Also, while strong, a fence is likely no match for many dozens of 1500lb bison simultaneously ramming up against it trying to flee a hypothetical fire. 

The bison are also located towards the north and center of the mine-site, and if the fire were to ever make it that far, there would be much bigger concerns. They are in God's hands now.

Moving into a good friend's condo tomorrow who is out of town, in Marda Loop Calgary. Will take the opportunity to explore Calgary a bit. Wish there was more I could do to help but I'm not requested to come back to work yet and it looks like they have all the volunteers they need. Was down at the evac center today at UofC and it all seemed very orderly. Haven't taken or needed any assistance/discounts. Feels wrong as I'm not in need, and I don't particularly want to ask a struggling Alberta business to give me free stuff when I'm so well-off. I will exhaust my friend/family connections first, which should keep us with a roof over our heads for several more weeks.

It's becoming questionable whether insurance is going to cover all our expenses, we have a pretty lightweight package as we're just finding out, but I guess that's what an emergency fund and huge stack of cash are for.

Once I'm back in town I'm hoping there's a chance to get an evening/weekend labor job as part of the construction crews doing cleanup/rebuild work.


----------



## Plugging Along

^. Glad you are okay Peter. Did you get your socks? Marda loop is a great little area, try and distress a little bit. There is a great little ice cream shop by the Safeway there. 

In terms of insurance, some items that are not covered, you may be eligible through the DRP for partial assistance.


----------



## Oldroe

Hears unbelievable story at Fort Mac. Some how a guys pregnant wife and 1 year old daughter had the wheels burned off her car. Think maybe on the north road. They spent 9 hours on the side of the road police cars passenger cars trucks all passed her by. Her husband drove back 9 hrs to get her on the roadside with the flame 200 meters or feet from her.


----------



## zylon

A series of 6 short dash cam videos of a guy leaving Beacon Hill on May 3.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmyRXbKxO1C_YD4xHpasgzw


----------



## humble_pie

m3s said:


> RCAF sends in Chinooks ... Apparently Russia offered to send their water bombers and specialists, but we're too good to even reply




that's surprising. I would have expected JT & SD to handle this with the exquisite diplomacy of 18th century french ambassadors. JT's father would have done so.

it's probably too much for canadian national security to welcome the russians into the heart of northern canada RCMP & RCAF rescue operations right now. But canada should reply to russia in the most appreciative & grateful language possible.


_"We thank you profoundly for your generous offer of assistance and your kind wishes. The worst is now over with our northern forest fires. We are managing to look after everything and do not require international assistance at this time.

"Canada is looking forward to many other opportunities for bilateral cooperation with yourselves in the near future. Please be assured that Canada will remain grateful to Russia for this generous gesture."_


----------



## humble_pie

.

re bison, thankx for the info peter[soc]k, the bison will be alright, you can see in zylon's photo how the 3 big animals on the left are already plotting jailbreak

re sox, it's possible you're going to be teased about sox on cmf forum 4ever

.


----------



## Eclectic12

m3s said:


> RCAF sends in Chinooks ... Apparently Russia offered to send their water bombers and specialists, but we're too good to even reply ...


Was it a "we are looking into it" or no response at all?

Certainly there were delays before the CAF sent anything in so I'd expect delays in figuring out how to co-ordinate different air craft, never mind how to be sure to avoid communication problems.


Cheers


----------



## peterk

humble_pie said:


> .
> 
> re bison, thankx for the info peter[soc]k, the bison will be alright, you can see in zylon's photo how the 3 big animals on the left are already plotting jailbreak
> 
> re sox, it's possible you're going to be teased about sox on cmf forum 4ever
> 
> .


ay ay ay. To be clear I had a couple pairs with me, but they were ruined by walking around the dust and grime covered floors of an uninhabited work camp. All-in-all, a minor loss. Those look lovely though HP, and would be excellent on a cold rainy day in Calgary like today.  Figures, it's nice here all winter, and the weather turns unpleasant shortly after I arrive. :rolleyes2:

Mostly concerned about my fish tank and fridge. If the power was out for more than a few days the fish will be dead for sure (probably will be anyways with no food, although I imagine they could be alive right now still) and the fridge is going to be a horrible mess. I remember those slave lake guys having to throw all their fridges out. People were complaining that it was wasteful, why couldn't they just clean them? Apparently it doesn't work that way with sealed warm boxes full of meat and milk and vegetables... I can only imagine the horror of opening one of those things up. Especially mine with all the fresh/Frozen raw foods. No pizza pockets or soda in my fridge....:hopelessness:


----------



## zylon

*Warning:* For anyone aware of a few basic facts about the topic at hand, this 10-minute youtube may cause your blood to boil.

I still find it useful to listen to guys like this as a simple reminder as to how little can be believed when hearing reports from other parts of the world where we don't have firsthand knowledge.


ALBERTA FIRE/URANIUM Connection
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBe3_iZ3HHk


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

zylon said:


> *Warning:* For anyone aware of a few basic facts about the topic at hand, this 10-minute youtube may cause your blood to boil...


Wow, what a wingnut. He'd have more cred if he claimed it was a Tides Foundation conspiracy to shut down the oil sands. Won't happen.


----------



## carverman

humble_pie said:


> that's surprising. I would have expected JT & SD to handle this with the exquisite diplomacy of 18th century french ambassadors. JT's father would have done so.
> 
> i*t's probably too much for canadian national security to welcome the russians into the heart of northern canada RCMP & RCAF rescue operations right now. But canada should reply to russia in the most appreciative & grateful language possible.
> *
> 
> _"We thank you profoundly for your generous offer of assistance and your kind wishes. The worst is now over with our northern forest fires. We are managing to look after everything and do not require international assistance at this time.
> 
> "*Canada is looking forward to many other opportunities for bilateral cooperation with yourselves in the near future. Please be assured that Canada will remain grateful to Russia for this generous gesture.*"_


Screw the Russkies! They are only looking for an opportunity to get their foot in the door. I would never trust them.


----------



## carverman

zylon said:


> *Warning:* For anyone aware of a few basic facts about the topic at hand, this 10-minute youtube may cause your blood to boil.
> 
> I still find it useful to listen to guys like this as a simple reminder as to how little can be believed when hearing reports from other parts of the world where we don't have firsthand knowledge.


Sorry for sidetracking the wildfire discussion Ft.McMurray, but my blood is almost boiling, so I have to respond. 

As I said in a previous post, *You cannot always trust the Russians for what they may be up to.* Russia is run by very wealthy oligarches and Putin is part of that pact.

Putin has *Billions *salted away in Panamanian banks, while the poor Russian peasants (retirees) have to get by on almost nothing.

Connections to the Clinton dynasty? Not surprised here. I guess when you got money to burn, Clinton and mrs Clinton will be there to collect it!



> A number of investors in Uranium One *gave donations to the Clinton Foundation during the time the sale was being considered (*between 2008 and 2010), in part through the participation of Frank Giustra, a Canadian mining magnate who was a large donor to the Foundation and who had controlled a company that eventually bought Uranium One (according to the Times, Giustra sold his interest in the company in 2007, before the Rosatom
> deal).


http://www.businessinsider.com/ever...hillary-clinton-russia-uranium-scandal-2015-4


----------



## humble_pie

carverman said:


> Screw the Russkies! They are only looking for an opportunity to get their foot in the door. I would never trust them.



carve what a rogue riot you are. Always on the lookout for WW III.

we're on the same page, can't let the russkies into the thick of RCMP & RCAF on active duty. But unfortunately you are hammering the harper style. No i won't shake hands with ya, ya kooky little kremlin kop, until you get out of krimea! 

fortunately for canada JT, SD & Co are more likely to reply as alluded to above. It's the official canajun gummint style.


----------



## m3s

peterk said:


> It's becoming questionable whether insurance is going to cover all our expenses, we have a pretty lightweight package as we're just finding out, but I guess that's what an emergency fund and huge stack of cash are for.
> 
> Once I'm back in town I'm hoping there's a chance to get an evening/weekend labor job as part of the construction crews doing cleanup/rebuild work.


So you're self insured which is probably more economical and less stressful in the long run. I believe in only insure things I couldn't afford to pay myself, which is basically third party liability and mortgage etc. Your credit card might have some insurance as well, but they always seem to have an obscure clause that precludes them, as they all do.

Also I don't know about bison but cattle can certainly break through a fence given enough motivation. So long as they're fed they have no reason to escape and actually come home on their own in expectation of food/shelter.


----------



## humble_pie

good ole Southern Twang here, who's so miffed about Uranium One, is actually onto a fragment of the story. Some of it really did happen.

the mystery donor to the Clinton Foundation was reclusive Vancouver billionnaire mining promoter Frank Giustra, a longtime friend of US former president Bill Clinton. Reportedly Bill loves to ride in Frank's private jet.

sometime around 2000 - i haven't refreshed the date - Bill & Frank flew in Frank's jet to Kazakhstan, where they were received by the dictator in charge of the republic. Bill & Frank's goal was to acquire title to 3 or 4 newly discovered Kazakh uranium properties. As best i can recall, there was primary kazakh ownership but also something like 20% french nuclear authority ownership.

the kazakh dictator was wowed by the presence of the former US president. Wowed like he never would have been by diminutive little Frankie Giustra out of west vancouver. There was a big banquet the night Bill & Frank arrived. By the end of the evening, the mine titles were in Frank's hands.

back home in vancouver, Frank's first task was to make over his *gift* to the Clinton Foundation. Frank continued to hold the kazakh uranium properties in his private company, which became the predecessor to the future publicly-traded Uranium One after the IPO launch. 

altogether Frank's costs were minimal. The bribe to the kazakh dictator. The gift to the Clinton Foundation. The cost of the IPO by respectable canadian investment bankers. Altogether, Frank would net a few hundred million dollars out of his kazakh uranium flip.

eventually, Uranium One would be sold to russian interests.

IDK about the alleged uranium around the shores of lake Athabasca. Seems that Southern Twang has flipped into the twilight zone on this issue.

but what's to boil blood over? how is this video any more nutbar than zerohedge, or the small handful of crypto nazis or pro-kremlin lunatics who regularly post psycho rubbish in cmf forum? they are all equally entertaining imho .each:




.


----------



## carverman

humble_pie said:


> carve what a rogue riot you are. Always on the lookout for WW III.
> 
> we're on the same page, can't let the russkies into the thick of RCMP & RCAF on active duty. But unfortunately you are hammering the harper style. No i won't shake hands with ya, ya kooky little kremlin kop, until you get out of krimea!
> 
> fortunately for canada JT, SD & Co are more likely to reply as alluded to above. It's the official canajun gummint style.


Whew! Thanks for that. I hate the way the Russians undermine us and try to get our UR-ani-um for a song, then give the 
those filthy rich Americans bribes in the process for her re-election fund. Sad to see that the presidential candidate is accepting graft.

*obligatory content for Ft Mac wildfire:*
Looks like its cooling down and the fires isn't spreading as bad as it was a couple days ago. The firefighters have started the "deathgrip" on that monster fire.



> By Sunday afternoon, 200 helicopters and more than 500 firefighters were battling the Fort McMurray blaze. F*ifteen hundred more were fighting 34 other fires across the province, though 31 of those were under control. *Crews from B.C. and Alberta were also fighting a 440-sq.-km blaze on the border.


Soon the process for the rebuild should be possible?
http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...to-get-a-death-grip-on-fort-mcmurray-wildfire

Humble; How is that knitting and my socks coming along? :biggrin:
xxoo...(Carver yer anti-kremlin korespondent)


----------



## carverman

humble_pie said:


> altogether Frank's costs were minimal. The bribe to the kazakh dictator. The gift to the Clinton Foundation. The cost of the IPO by respectable canadian investment bankers. Altogether, Frank would net a few hundred million dollars out of his kazakh uranium flip.
> 
> eventually, Uranium One would be sold to russian interests.
> 
> *IDK about the alleged uranium around the shores of lake Athabasca. * Seems that Southern Twang has flipped into the twilight zone on this issue.


psycho rubbish...eh?

Now what does this Russkie/Kazahstan owned uranium mine doing on the shores of Lake Athabaska? Is there a connection to the Ft. Mac wildfire?
Is this the resurgence of Albertas' economy after the collapse of oil prices...uranium "the new gold"?
How so? 



> Canada’s Athabasca Basin has become the go-to destination for high-grade uranium, with grades in excess of 100x global averages.
> 
> It’s home to the world’s richest uranium mine — Cameco’s Cigar Lake, which achieved commercial production on May 1 and has average grades of 17.8% uranium. Cameco holds a 50% stake in Cigar Lake, with the balance held by French nuclear giant AREVA (37%), Idemitsu Canada (8%) and TEPCO Resources (5%). Other producing mines in the eastern Basin include McArthur River and Rabbit Lake.
> 
> The prolific uranium-producing region — sometimes described as the “Persian Gulf of uranium” — is also home to dozens of exploration plays and a handful of more advanced projects.





> Investors are now researching how they can profit from the resurgence of nuclear. On the production side, Cameco, one of the world’s largest uranium producers, AREVA and *Kazakhstan state-owned Kazatomprom are the main players*. On the exploration and development side, the most active companies in the basin are Denison Mines, Fission Uranium and NexGen Energy.


----------



## humble_pie

carverman said:


> Humble; How is that knitting and my socks coming along? :biggrin:
> xxoo...(Carver yer anti-kremlin korespondent)



at the moment i only have these yoga socks

perhaps not quite your style? although you might be up for the Warrior Pose or a Downward Dog


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## zylon

Briar Stewart - CBC News - is tweeting pics & video clips from the media bus touring Ft Mac.

https://twitter.com/briarstewart


----------



## nobleea

I've never seen so many people load up their trucks and tankers with fuel and drive towards a large fire. Countless stories of it happening. Large construction companies, small pickups. People driving up through the column to help those who were stranded without fuel on the highways. Some of the videos of the evacuation have been jaw dropping. I'm surprised it went so well.
Everywhere you go here there are signs about showing your Ft Mac DL and get a free meal, etc. Like EVERYWHERE. They cancelled all events at our Expo centre for the foreseeable future to house the 3000 or so people. A little short on baby supplies, but other than that, it sounds like they're pretty solid. So many fundraisers going on, big and small. I think Red cross raised something like 30mil over a couple days.
You certainly see a few more trucks around town with Ft Mac company signs, but other than that, it's hard to notice that the population of the city grew by 3% almost overnight. Many people are hunting for 3-4 month short term rentals. You see several postings a day on FB about someone offering something up and contact so and so to get it.

It's interesting that Red Cross has become the defacto disaster relief program. I guess they have far more experience at it in terms of logistics and organization, procedures, than a province might.


----------



## sags

zylon said:


> Briar Stewart - CBC News - is tweeting pics & video clips from the media bus touring Ft Mac.
> 
> https://twitter.com/briarstewart


I am no doubt conditioned by the CBC by now, so every time I see her name I think it is a typo of Brian Stewart


----------



## carverman

humble_pie said:


> at the moment i only have these yoga socks
> 
> perhaps not quite your style? although you might be up for the Warrior Pose or a Downward Dog


Yowsa! Nude heel and exposed toes? Yoga eh? More like somebody with a foot fetish to me..that's exposure to say the least.:biggrin:It's still pretty cold here in Ottawa in early May..and we don't have all those wildfires to keep our footsies toasty warm... (sorry folks, not meant to offend Albertans in their recent tragedy..only trying to turn the sock picture into a poor joke).
\
Humble, ya gotta do better than that...I'm going pull out the heating pad again tonight for my cold feet. Don't have somebody's back to snuggle them up to. :friendly_wink:

ok..enuff about socks...now the obligatory content on the Ft. Mac fire..according to the latest reports, it seems to be out, but several hundred homes have been destroyed in its wake.



> Fort McMurray’s fire chief says 85 per cent of the city is still intact
> Alberta Premier Rachel Notley says 2,400 buildings were lost, but praised firefighters for saving 25,000 more
> Hospital, municipal building and all functioning schools were saved





> Cooler temperatures are expected to help firefighters get a handle on the fire
> The blaze will take months to extinguish, an Alberta fire official says
> Police found some people in the evacuated city
> *Moscow has offered to send water bombers, *but Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says there’s no need for international help at the moment
> Analysts are scaling back their projections for Canada’s economic growth because of the fire
> Canadian insurer Intact Financial Corp. is assessing the damage, and suggests it is of “unprecedented” scope


 You just have to look at the first picture to see how scary it was a few days ago. 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...the-response-and-theevacuees/article29930041/
Oil companies are planning to resume production again discussing with the pipeline operators if the pipelines
survived the fires.


----------



## Islenska

My hometown Cranberry Portage, Mb was wiped out by a wildfire in 1929.

Amazing in the bay you can still see a sunken barge which people gathered on to escape fire conditions. Of course in those days equipment was rudimentary and very little could be done except flee and find water which is in abundance in our area.

The old-timers said that summer "The whole north was on fire!"


----------



## zylon

*Fort McMurray SPCA spent the weekend rescuing pets—in secret*

http://globalnews.ca/news/2692042/f...weekend-rescuing-pets-in-secret/?sf26013607=1

“In spite of some of our homes and belongings also being consumed by the wildfire, we asked for permission to return to Fort McMurray to help our community pets on Thursday, which was subsequently granted,” ...

"But it was on one condition: the group wasn’t allowed to provide any information to the public for 96 hours."


----------



## zylon

*#Hwy63 and #Hwy881 Travel Update*


upload a picture


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## zylon

free photo hosting


----------



## m3s

I'm not sure about the source

Here’s why Canada’s largest water bomber wasn’t “available” to fight wildfire in Fort Mac



> Firstly, if there was a request by the Alberta Government to contract the Martin Mars, we would do everything in our power to support the request. In fact, we have offered one of our C-130's that could be made available immediately, to the Alberta Government however they currently do not see a need for it at the moment. We have our crews for it on standby, regardless. Next to the Mars at 7200 US gallons, our C-130's are the largest propeller driven air tankers in the world with a 4400 US gallon capacity. Secondly, in the firefighting business it is the government that has operational control of the aircraft. No aircraft operator in the world can simply go and put out a fire, even if they wanted to and if someone ever did, they would be facing serious criminal charges.The Mars is currently going through it’s yearly inspection. Based on the fact no government has any interest whatsoever in the aircraft fighting fire, we have decided to take the Mars to the Oshkosh Air Show in late July in hopes of finding another business or home for it, keeping it somewhat operational.”


I'm not sure if there was a hidden agenda here, or the airspace/airport/logistics were just overwhelmed to have more assets. Or maybe the effect just didn't make sense (bombers weren't helping that much?)

I heard a "forest fire expert" on CBC radio claim that a reason the fire was so big, was in part that we fight fires so well (excessive tinder due to lack of natural fires)


----------



## zylon

*^^*

I believe the main issue with *Martin Mars* is the area required to pick up a load of water. I heard Wayne Coulson say in an interview that it requires 3 miles (approach + fill + climb) to do it safely. There are only 113 lakes in BC where MM can be used, and only one in the Ft Mac area; it isn't clear why that lake can't be used.



> The Alberta Premier’s office says it’s not possible to use the water bomber because they can’t use the only large lake in the area to grab the water it needs.
> 
> The premier’s office also says there are limits on the number of aircraft jamming the skies to fight the fire.
> 
> Coulson had previously said the company has not had any inquiries, acknowledging that *he wasn’t sure if it was possible for the Mars to land near the fire in Alberta*.


http://www.news1130.com/2016/05/09/martin-mars-fort-mcmurray/










image source: link above


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## m3s

That might explain why he kept deferring to their C-130 tanker in the post above (a very capable tactical military aircraft) He also mentioned Martin Mars was under annual inspection.

Odd the C-130 tanker wasn't mentioned in your article. Funny how no article can give a full unbiased opinion. C-130 is famous for short takeoff/landing in austere situations..


----------



## humble_pie

m3s said:


> I'm not sure about the source
> 
> Here’s why Canada’s largest water bomber wasn’t “available” to fight wildfire in Fort Mac




the source? oh dear, let's not take "theRebel"seriously.

it's that crypto-conservative-quasi-fascist-anti-refugee-ezra-levant-pseudo-media piece of kleenex at which the forum has already poked fun, several times.

as for the Coulson Flying Tankers rant, it's transparently obvious that the author is in a snit because Coulson wasn't contracted to help fight the fort mcMurray fires. See how the author labels himself a "small c conservative," how he attacks Rachel Notley with the *Ell* word. how he ends up shouting angrily in bold face & multi-coloured type.

it's my understanding that the Alberta government reduced firefighting expenditures on 29 april/16. The fire that was menacing fort mcMurray had already begun. It turned dangerous four days later, on tuesday 3 may/16.

it would not have been possible for private firefighting firms hoping to land contracts for their water bombers to somehow, in the four days between 29 april & 3 may, find alternate governments or agencies that would contract them, sign contracts, & also fly their tankers out of the province to those foreign locations. Logistically this kind of speed within four short days does not seem possible. 

frankly it sounds as if Coulson's Mars aircraft may be too big for most canadian firefighting settings. Upthread m3 has shown a gigantic US water bomber that requires an 8000 foot runway & he has expressed doubt about its usefulness in canada's north, which is dotted with tiny lakes (short takeoff) plus small towns & settlements with short landing strips.

sadly enough, it won't surprise me if a fair number of attacks such as this Coulson/theRebel attack start coming out of the woodwork. People are going to attack premier Notley for ... whatever. People are probably going to attack the Army for ... whatever. People will likely attack Justin Trudeau for ... whatever.

somewhere upthread cmf member *sags* posted that now is not the time to fester on these kinds of criticisms. Now is the time to flat-out support Albertans, sags said. He's right, of course.


----------



## bgc_fan

humble_pie said:


> the source? oh dear, let's not take "theRebel"seriously.


I just read it and feel all dirty inside.

At any case, the comments are more than interesting in debunking the whole thing. Apparently it is 70 years old and the last time it was used on a fire fighting mission was in 2015. I think this is a case where bigger is not always better as the story does explain some of the limitations that have already been mentioned.

Oh but I get it, I linked to the CBC website; they are so deviously left-wing that they published a story last year to give more relevant background on a story the Rebel put out a couple of days ago. That's real sneaky of them.


----------



## m3s

Their C-130 looks pretty high tech and it is well suited for the north. They just bought the 2nd one.






They have contracts in US and Australia and train foreign water bomber pilots in Canada.

Seems like Canada is a center of excellence for fighting foreign fires.

Probably not cheap. There's good reason not to privatize emergency services in my opinion.










Desert USAF flight suits, ball caps, sunglasses, and patches. Definitely ex military.


----------



## humble_pie

^^


m3 if you say coulson aviation includes a top notch international firefighting service, i'll believe you.

however i'm repelled by any company that would link its PR to shabby journalism such as theRebel dot media.

the coulson news release itself is confusing. If coulson wanted to sell its Mars monster, it should have stuck to that story, instead of saying feebly that the Mars is not in operation due to annual inspection.

on the other hand, if coulson wanted to sell its C-130 service to the alberta government, it should have stuck to that story. In fact, it does sound as if there might be a legitimate alberta story there. Given the northern wildfire situation this year, there will likely be reviews of firefighting services in many provinces. There could still be opportunities to hire coulson C-130s in the future.

normally a company in this situation - ie overlooked for the moment but hoping for future government contracts in western canada - would refrain from complaining & sniping in public though.

a damaging step for coulson was allowing any part of its story to get into the hands of theRebel scribe sheila gunn read - a self-described stay-at-home mom of three with bizarre or non-existent research skills - who quickly taxiis herself off the runway into incoherent babble.

wayne coulson, son of the founder & current CEO of coulson group, including coulson aviation, should perhaps find a capable media advisor for his suite of companies. IMHO he does have a legitimate success story to sell. His enterprise would fare better without contamination from theRebel dot media. His enterprise needs to issue press releases that are far better written.


http://www.coulsongroup.com/next-generation/britton-coulson.php


----------



## sags

From what I have read, it was a difficult situation to employ the air assets that were already in place.

The size and intensity of the fire created so much smoke that aircraft couldn't see where they were dropping their cargo and the intense heat made it impossible to fly over.

Perhaps the authorities concluded they couldn't use larger aircraft effectively.

In other news, Economical Insurance........the sixth largest property insurer in Canada estimate their net losses at $30 - $35 million in the fire. Their overall losses were higher but they have re-insurance with global insurers.

From first reports it looks like the worst case scenario didn't come to fruition, and 90% of the city was saved.

The firefighters managed to save most of the city...........most importantly virtually all the main infrastructure such as schools and the hospital.


----------



## zylon

*Tristin Hopper nails it with this one*

*"Hate all you want, but a burning Fort McMurray was pretty happy it had a bunch of oil companies next door"*

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...ppy-it-had-a-bunch-of-oil-companies-next-door



> Alberta’s oil producers effectively turned themselves into multi-million dollar humanitarian organizations at the drop of a hat. All told, the reason so much of Fort McMurray was saved — and the reason no full-scale military relief deployment was ever required — was due in no small part to the lightning response of the region’s major employers.



imgurl


----------



## bgc_fan

zylon said:


> *"Hate all you want, but a burning Fort McMurray was pretty happy it had a bunch of oil companies next door"*
> 
> http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...ppy-it-had-a-bunch-of-oil-companies-next-door


Not to put a damper on things, but to a certain extent, Fort McMurray wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the oil. Or at least the magnitude of the effects would not have been so dire.


----------



## zylon

Danielle Smith keeps pounding the table; why can't residents return to Ft Mac?

There's still a lot of smoke in the area.
This isn't just a little bush fire.
I've heard that fire can go as deep as 7 feet burning peat moss and only prolonged rain or winter can put it out.


img upload

Image source: http://www.rmwb.ca/Municipal-Govern...m?hootPostID=c85f26f9a1f454fa9f1597fcb4839c4d


----------



## sags

That is interesting about the peat moss burning.

My dad had a 1 acre property of grass and 1 big tree in the middle. The tree was dying and he cut it down and decided to burn the stump.

He drilled holes and put lighter fluid in and started the fire. The stump burned all right...........and then the deep roots started burning and then our whole backyard started smoldering.

A fog of smoke rose from the backyard for almost a year before the roots finally burned out.


----------



## zylon

*8,000 workers impacted - mandatory and/or precautionary evacuation order.*

Informative 4-minute video:
http://globalnews.ca/news/2704875/f...-issued-for-camps-north-of-city/?sf26398192=1



gif image hosting


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## humble_pie

zylon thankx so much for all your faithful & accurate coverage of fort mcMurray news. It's a gigantic story, so cmf forum is fortunate to have an albertan on board who can post the essentials as well as you do.

do you happen to know if companies are still issuing paycheques? i imagine most are, but one has to ask oneself how long companies - big & small - can continue normal payrolls when there is no business revenue coming in. Every company is involved, from the mega oil sands extractors to neighbourhood dry cleaning businesses & corner 7-11 grocery stores.


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## AltaRed

Based on local press out of AB, the oil and pipeline and utility companies are meeting their payrolls, but I have seen little commentary regarding small businesses. I have to think small retail and commercial businesses probably cannot continue payroll for more than perhaps a month. It obviously depends on how important certain skilled and experienced employees are.

The effort that will be required just to clear out all perishable goods and sanitize equipment, etc. will be monumental in itself. Read a story recently about how all Slave Lake residents were advised just to duct tape their refrigerators shut and put them by the curb. No way to salvage any of the equipment. Can you imagine circa 25000 refrigerators et al having to be hauled off? Smoke damage to perhaps half of all dwellings? Ash litttering the landscape everywhere? I suspect few people truly understand the scope of the effort. I believe the town of Slave Lake wrote a report on their experience.... with circa 400 homes.

Added: The latest threat does not bode well for Suncor operations in particular (now that they have (will have) 51% of Syncrude as well). A lot of their operations, including in-situ are the most vulnerable to the continuing fire situation. As long as the pipeline companies can start up and operate, I suspect the likes of CNRL, Shell and IOL can operate their facilities. They are far enough north to be out of harm's way......for now. Any continuation of south winds though will be very bad news.


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## Plugging Along

From my contacts, many companies are still issuing paycheques (though all of the ones I know work for large companies). I don't know if some companies are too. 

I have met a few evacuees, and they are trying to make the best of it, and where they can are trying to work in calgary. 

The one family I have been speaking with, had left with very little thinking it was going to be a couple of nights, with their baby and young child. They have said the support here has been wonderful but their are anxious to see to what awaits for them. Even though their house is still standing.

The media coverage will soon fade, so I hope they have support for the long road to recovery.


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## humble_pie

there has been such unbelievable, incredible cooperation. The citizens, the firefighters, the police, the RCMP, the oil companies, the military, the premier, the mayor of fort mcMurray, the volunteer firefighters from other provinces, the volunteers in other communities who opened up & ran the evacuation centres,the Red Cross, canadians who have donated.

we can see how the decision has been to repair & restore fort Mac so it can function as a city with the bare minimum in working order. Reliable water & hydro plus a working hospital, meanwhile not letting residents return until conditions become at least adequately healthy. 

with the new exodus of workers from the northern camps, perhaps that "healthy functioning" point has not yet been reached though.


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## AltaRed

Blacksands Lodge that houses oil workers north of Fort Mac is now burning. If you Google Blacksands Lodge and look at Google's satellite view, one can see how close the fire is now to other oil workers lodges and both the Suncor and Syncrude facilities themselves. Without a change in wind direction, the potential for more damage is pretty obvious.


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## sags

The fire destroyed the Blacksands Lodge and has moved north to the edge of the Noralto Lodge.

There are still thousands of workers in some camps and I hope they aren't tempting fate by not evacuating everyone from the area.

This fire has been highly unpredictable and can move rapidly........kilometers at a time.


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## Eder

These 2 are of Birch Mountain 










Heres my kids camp Blacksands









Heres Noralta Lodge...almost clean sweep, Atco will be busy.


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## LBCfan

Last summer fire nearly destroyed La Ronge Sk. The tourist season didn't happen. Then the winter snowmobile season lacked snow. My SIL worked for a tourist company. When they quit paying him in January, he quit showing up for work. 

A lot of companies are going under due to cash flow trouble. Will they survive? WTFK.


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## humble_pie

carverman (if you pass by here) how do you find this sock? it certainly does look warm ...

.


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## AltaRed

North winds are now likely to drive the northerly portios of the fire back on to itself. Should save further damage to oil sands facilities and camps, but cause huge smoke issues in Fort Mac itself. Maybe even threaten the northern suburbs once again.


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## fraser

My daughter nagged (as only she can) her Ft. Mac renter for several months to get renter's insurance. After several years without it, three weeks before the fire he succumbed and signed up for a policy. He apparently got his first advance insurance payout yesterday...a $10K cheque. He called to thank her for her nagging.


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## sags

Nice to hear a good news story..........sort of............did your daughter lose her rental property ?


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## fraser

No, however it is unclear how extensive the damage might be. Smoke damage may require replacement of attic insulation, drywall,etc. 

They are actually seeing opportunity and would like to return to FT. Mac. They moved heir business to Edmonton last year.


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## kcowan

DWs niece has her kids enrolled in school in Edmonton so will continue to camp out with their friends until late June. FT has cancelled the remaining school year.


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## zylon

*Syncrude says bison herd holding up well as wildfires rage nearby*

http://www.cfjctoday.com/article/526687/syncrude-says-bison-herd-holding-well-wildfires-rage-nearby



> The full-time manager of the bison ranch has also flown in periodically and reports that the ruminants are behaving normally and that a few calves have even been born over the past day or so.
> 
> The animals have been corralled in the northernmost pasture, which has a big buffer zone around it separating it from the boreal forest.
> 
> Workers have been ensuring troughs are filled with water, that there's enough feed for four or five days and that fences that surround the pasture haven't been damaged.


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## fraser

The people of Edmonton are being so very generous to the evacuees. My daughter has several friends from her Ft. Mac days who rented in Edmonton and were looking for furniture on Kijiji etc. On three occasions that she knows of when the seller found out the people were evacuees from Ft. Mac they said come and pick up what you want gratis/no charge. 

Lots of acts of kindness that are done without general public knowledge. It was the same in Calgary during the flood. Many people in our condo dug out spare furniture, soft goods etc for the folks working on the building who had lost everything in the flood.
It just seemed to happen spontaneously without any organization/organizer being involved.


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## humble_pie

zylon said:


> Syncrude says bison herd holding up well as wildfires rage nearby.
> 
> http://www.cfjctoday.com/article/526687/syncrude-says-bison-herd-holding-well-wildfires-rage-nearby



aww.

born in the fire, this baby bison could well become the fort Mac mascot.

.


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## james4beach

South African firefighters arrive in Edmonton, sing as they prepare to head north to fight the wild fires!






What an amazing scene, right after they get off a 24 hour travel! 300 South African firefighters lending a hand in the fight - fantastic. Much appreciation for the South Africans!

More on this story is here
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/fort-mcmurray-fire-south-africa-1.3605976
https://ipolitics.ca/2016/05/31/today-we-are-paying-back/

The firefighters are part of a training program in South Africa, but it also appears that this action is partially a thank-you to Canada for supporting the anti-apartheid struggle.


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## zylon

_“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; 
he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him."_


upload gambar



> *Abasand, Waterways, Beacon Hill:*
> 
> As many as 2,000 Fort McMurray residents whose homes weren’t damaged by fire won’t be allowed to move back this week after tests showed unsafe toxic levels in three neighbourhoods.
> 
> “There’s contaminants there,” Alberta Health Services’ Dr. Karen Grimsrud said.
> 
> Tests revealed the presence of chemicals in the ash, soil and air in the communities of Abasand, Waterways and Beacon Hill.
> 
> http://globalnews.ca/news/2729767/f...ntary-re-entry-begins-this-week/?sf27527314=1


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## zylon

Two and a half minutes with Briar Stewart (May 31)

Driving through Fort McMurray

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHLS2uCeyX8


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## olivaw

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/fort-mcmurray-youth-guilty-feelings-1.3610171



> Kufakwedu and her 15-year-old sister Martina moved [to Fort McMurray] from Toronto about three years ago. At first, they hated it. And back then complaining about Fort McMurray was a fad. Now, they worry their negativity attracted some kind of ugly karma or bad luck.
> 
> "I would hear people say that I want Fort McMurray to burn down. I'm like, now it's true. And in reality, I miss it," Martina said.
> 
> "I feel kinda guilty. I didn't like Fort Mac. And now all of a sudden I do."


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## zylon

https://twitter.com/peterfortna


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## zylon

*3 months later ...*

Fort McMurray


http://www.fortmcmurraytoday.com/2016/07/31/heavy-rainfall-floods-parts-of-fort-mcmurray


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## zylon

*Ft McMurray Legion delays opening*




more here: http://www.fortmcmurraytoday.com/2016/08/05/legion-delays-opening-donates-to-community-organizations


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## zylon

*one year later*






Published on May 1, 2017
"It's been a year since a wildfire forced people from their homes. While some have managed to find new homes, others are still unsure if they can rebuild."


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## james4beach

Has anyone considered buying real estate right now in the Fort McMurray region?

Oil sector slowdown + devastating fire... must have depressed RE prices?


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## kcowan

Many of the building lots and renovation projects are held up awaiting insurance settlements.


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## zylon

james4beach said:


> Has anyone considered buying real estate right now in the Fort McMurray region?


No thanks; and you?


*$1,009,000.00*










http://www.kijiji.ca/b-house-for-sale/fort-mcmurray/c35l1700232?sort=priceDesc


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## peterk

james4beach said:


> Has anyone considered buying real estate right now in the Fort McMurray region?
> 
> Oil sector slowdown + devastating fire... must have depressed RE prices?


hhhhhhhhhhhhhha! No way man. There are 2000 brand new houses popping up in the next year or so, and many are listed as pre-sale already, or empty lots for sale. In addition to those who lost their houses, I feel bad for the folks who's houses didn't burn but they live in the burned neighborhoods. They have to live through 2 years of construction, and once it's all done they're left with the smallest, oldest house on the block.


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## m3s

Fort McMurray is evacuating for flooding and requested military assistance (CBC)



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/fort-mcmurray-flooding-1.5546029



Almost 4 years exactly from the fire! Hopefully this is not as severe but maybe compounded by ongoing pandemic


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## Longtimeago

You would think by now that people would start to figure out that Fort McMurray is not a good place to live.

How bright do you have to be to know you shouldn't buy a house on a flood plain? After the fire, they had a chance to correct that stupidity and didn't.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/rebuilding-fort-mcmurray-homes-on-flood-plain-a-poor-decision-says-hydrologist-1.3793374



Then last year, their answer was, 'we'll build a wall'.
https://www.https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/rebuilding-fort-mcmurray-homes-on-flood-plain-a-poor-decision-says-hydrologist-1.3793374theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-fortress-mcmurray-after-decades-of-building-on-the-floodplain-a-city/

I wonder what their answer will be next year?


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## Longtimeago

Oops, link.








Fortress McMurray: After decades of building on the floodplain, a city moves to protect itself from its capricious rivers


If all goes according to plan, in a few years Fort McMurray will be a walled city. The anticipated cost: nearly $300-million




www.theglobeandmail.com


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## m3s

> Fort McMurray’s story illuminates how and why communities of perfectly rational people can build directly in harm’s way – and illustrates, as well, the high costs of addressing the mistake of doing so.


Eh I guess they have a different interpretation of perfectly rational people..

I mean there was lots of space in northern Alberta that isn't an obvious flood risk

And we all pay for this through taxes and insurance


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## sags

It is going to be hard to get house insurance in Fort McMurray.


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## Longtimeago

Now the Provincial government is going to give those affected handouts of $1200 per adult and $500 per child. I can understand helping someone in the immediate time frame but at what point should government be saying, 'enough is enough. Don't build on a flood plain and if you do, you are on your own.'

WHY do we keep bailing people out in these kinds of situations? All they learn is that they will be bailed out by taxpayer's money. They don't learn to cut their losses and move elsewhere!


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## sags

Some Arctic communities have been forced to move the entire community due to rising water levels of the Arctic Ocean.

But you read stories that the community has been moved several times already. One would think they would learn and move it further away.


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