# Advice on Moving Out



## thebeansterr (Dec 4, 2016)

Hi, all! I'm new to the forum and hoping to get some advice on my situation. I am a 23-year-old second year medical student that still lives at home, but I am hoping to move out next summer before I start my clerkship in third year. My parents and I are in disagreement about my decision, and the conversation always comes down to money and whether or not I am ruining my future by thinking so short-term. I was hoping to get some outside thoughts from people who understand money much better than me, but who are also not my parents.

My current financial situation is fairly light. My parents have been great to me, and paid for my undergrad in full, so I entered med school with $0 in debt. Tuition currently costs around $25k/year - OSAP covers just over $10k, my school gives me a grant I don't need to pay back that ranges from $5.5-7k, and my parents top of the rest. By the end of second year, I will be sitting at around $17k in debt to OSAP (they automatically forgive some of it each year). I currently only work during the summers, but have not been saving or investing this money. Once I graduate in 2.5 years, I will start my residency, where my starting salary will be around $55k, and be increased by $5k every year for what will probably be a 5-year program. I do not need to start paying my OSAP until I am finished residency.

The vast majority of my class lives in downtown Toronto condos, paying for things almost entirely by LOCs. Of those that do live at home, all that I've spoken to so far are planning to move out for the start of third year, when we start our rotations through the hospital. I would like to do the same - renting a place downtown, which is of course the most costly place to do so. If I were to move out, OSAP would give me a larger loan (but also pardon more of it), and my school's grant would likely get larger as well. However, I would also start an LOC and join those living off of one, and would be accruing interest at the prime rate.

Essentially, my parents argue that for me to move out next year is irresponsible, and will start a life of being constantly in debt that will not be balanced out by the residency salary. They argue that when I am closer to 30 and want to move into a house to start a family, I will struggle to do so because of said debt. My argument is much more childish: all my friends are doing it, so clearly it's doable.

My question to you: is it doable?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

My personal success has been fuelled more from adversity than anything else. I also believe most people should move out and live on their own at some point in their lives to discover just how hard it actually is. 

youre going to make mistakes, you're going to learn, probably the hard way, the difference between wants and needs. You may discover you don't need the expensive condo downtown pretty quick. There is nothing like a little pain to encourage you to change bad behaviours.no one says you need to run up huge debts, that's a choice. You may find creative ways to lower expenses or create passive income.

Not all of life's lessons are taught in school, life is a very good teacher.


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## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

Yeah... Move out. It's time. You are not an adult until you live by yourself. Financial situation will sort itself out. What you borrow will be very small vs your salary when you start practicing.

Living with parents till you are 30 is not ideal. You get too used to it.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

For context: I lived at home through medical school, graduating at 23 with no debt, and left home two years later, against my parents' wishes, but recognizing that it was time. It was long ago and far away. 

Some of the factors I would consider are:
1. How much debt are you likely to rack up by the time you graduate? In 2014, Queens estimated the average debt at graduation to be over $71,000. https://meds.queensu.ca/blog/undergraduate/?p=1807
Some students will have a much higher number, e.g. $200,000. Attending U of T and paying rent in Toronto, you are likely to end up in a higher debt category, especially since you mention that you have not saved any money from your summer jobs. 
2. How is your accumulated debt going to infouence your career choices? I've known several medical students and residents who have chosen surgical specialties because they need the higher income to service their debt, rather than because that was what they wanted to do. Do you still want to be paying off student debt when you are 40? 
3. How intolerable would it really be to hang out with Mom and Dad for a couple of years while completing med school? Sure, you may have a longer commute, but when you have worked 30 hours or more, sometimes Mom's home cooking is very therapeutic. BTDT.

In most cases, the practice of medicine is a small business enterprise. In all probability, you will never have a pension. You, and you alone, will be responsible to fund your retirement. Increasing regulation and narrowing tax breaks (see budget 2016) mean that task is getting more difficult. Regardless of your decision, my advice is to start getting savvy about managing your money ASAP. Best of luck! 

Endnote: I retired @55 due to starting my career debt free, my frugal lifestyle and an inheritance. You may not have that choice.


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

When I was 16, my parents were contemplating leaving Canada, but I didn't want to. I really liked Canada, and had plans to go to UofT. When I turned 17, my parents had decided to relocate and I told them I'm not moving. You think it's hard convincing your parents to move out at 23? Imagine telling them you wanted to live on your own at 17 and they were leaving the country.

Somehow I convinced them to let me rent a basement for a few months to try it out. They were within walking distance of me, and could keep an eye on me. I finished school, got a scholarship for 1st year, and got a summer job. It was HARD (and lonely) on my own, but it sure taught me a lot. Later on I moved into university residence, and the difference between someone who had lived on their own, and someone fresh out of mom and dad's house was very apparent. Living with multiple roommates from various backgrounds was eye opening, but rewarding. It also made it a lot easier for me after school to buy a house, and have roommates pay me rent and pay off the house very early. 

When I was living at home, I did my best to help out and take care of stuff. But it was NOTHING like living on my own. When you have no one but yourself to rely on, and no one to backstop you, you start thinking and acting differently, and it matures you up very quickly. It's not an experience I regret, and I recommend to anyone. You'll obviously be in a bit of debt because of it, but it's also a life lesson worth paying for.

On a different note, and I know med school is hard and demanding, but your 20s is also a fun time in your life. It's a lot more fun having your own place than sneaking in and out of your parents basement if you catch the drift.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

.

bean congratulations for getting into medical school (it sounds like U of T), also for apparently handling the challenges well, ie looking forward to the next decade of your life & understandably having longings for the independent lifestyle you see your friends enjoying.

whether & how to gain the independence? there are excellent suggestions from heyjude just upthread. Can you draw up a rough budget for the next 3 years, until you start earning residency income & will be able to pay the then-current lifestyle expenses? in other words, how many dollars of debt do you believe you will accumulate if you move now into a downtown toronto apartment?

if you move, will your parents continue to top up your tuition so generously?

* * * * *

this brings me immediately to an area that involves family dynamics, it doesn't really have much to do with finance. 

you may come from a culture where young adult offspring who continue to live at home with parents are the norm. Your own aspirations might be different, but your parents might 100% view this as normal.

next, your parents have made a whoppingly generous investment in your future. You are talking that they volunteer $8,000-10,000 each year to top up your tuition. You don't mention any kind of debt arrangements, so the big annual gift from the 'rents appears to be a total donation. This is huge. 

but ... there are strings attached. I also sense that you might be an only child. If so the strings become even more intense. If you are the only child, imagine how you alone are channelling everything your parents had hoped & struggled to find in canada. There's a kind of emotional burden here, something you will carry for the rest of your parents' lives, so you want to find ways to make this burden as light as possible.

next, it's a bit unusual here in canada to find parents who are "planning" their offspring's existence up to the age of 30. Even for a young person who comes from the strictest & most cloistering of family background cultures, age 30 is far too late for parents in such a family to be fretting about what the offspring will or will not decide to do.

i'm usually a middle-of-the-road person so perhaps you can take the situation one-year-at-a-time. Can you tolerate one more year at home? as heyjude says, sometimes that home cooking is mighty appealing. Not to speak of the laundry beautifully clean & folded back in the drawers & closets with no effort on your part. Not to speak of the warm family support.

during the year to come, you'd develop your budget for independent living. It's too bad that rents in the downtown toronto core are so expensive, but on the other hand a prestigious U of T medical degree will pay for everything in the end.

even more importantly, you'd speak out to your family about how much you value their love but the ties are going to have to be cut. Gradually, the 'rents should be shown that what you do age 30 will be 100% your decision, not their decision in the least (depending on what kind of family culture they themselves may have known, this news may be very hard for them to accept.)

if all goes extremely well - in the best of all possible worlds - you & the 'rents might find ways to subsidize that 2018-2019-2020 independent lifestyle, so you would not have to borrow quite so much at high interest rates.


.


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## BigMonkey (May 31, 2016)

In my opinion, I think you should make the move out. Reason being is because Clerkship is difficult and require heavy commuting to various locations, so being in a central location would be a huge benefit. I know in current state, financially it will be difficult as you are not making money and are only spending it so you are only seeing that debt grow.

Your LOC limit is probably roughly around 250k and charges a prime rate of around 2.8%. Which is very low interest rate and rates that most people cannot get. There is a reason banks offer that kind of LOC limit and interest rate for individuals in your program (they know you will be very well compensated and can easily make those payments back in the future) In my opinion, live it up (travel, eat well, do what you like) as long as it doesn't conflict with your schooling or go overboard. 

I know some individuals a little further down the road from your situation that regret not living it up when they were in your stage. They now make more money than they know what to do with, but are now burdened with limited time and other obligations.


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## thebeansterr (Dec 4, 2016)

Thanks so much for the responses everyone, I really appreciate it! I definitely didn't know what to expect coming here but you all have bested my expectations.

Just a Guy, mordko, STech - you guys definitely captured a lot of what motivates me to move out in terms of that feeling of independence, responsibility, and getting a bit closer to being an actual adult. Unfortunately, these lessons are not clearly quantifiable in quite the same way as money is, so it's hard to make this argument feel potent sometimes. But having a few others in different life situations helps me feel a bit more justified in having such a feeling.

--------​
heyjude, thanks for being practical on the professional side of things.



heyjude said:


> Some of the factors I would consider are:
> 1. How much debt are you likely to rack up by the time you graduate? In 2014, Queens estimated the average debt at graduation to be over $71,000.
> Some students will have a much higher number, e.g. $200,000. Attending U of T and paying rent in Toronto, you are likely to end up in a higher debt category, especially since you mention that you have not saved any money from your summer jobs.


I'll have around $30k owing to OSAP, plus what living on my own would cost. If I had to estimate in total, I would say my debt would likely be just over $100k. I know the average they estimate for us is often in the realm of $180k.



heyjude said:


> 2. How is your accumulated debt going to infouence your career choices? I've known several medical students and residents who have chosen surgical specialties because they need the higher income to service their debt, rather than because that was what they wanted to do. Do you still want to be paying off student debt when you are 40?


I'm pretty hard-set on the specialties that I'm looking at. I definitely know people with more debt than I would have (having debt from undergrad, as well as 4 years worth of downtown living), so I'd like to think that I could choose my non-surgical specialty with some confidence.



heyjude said:


> 3. How intolerable would it really be to hang out with Mom and Dad for a couple of years while completing med school? Sure, you may have a longer commute, but when you have worked 30 hours or more, sometimes Mom's home cooking is very therapeutic. BTDT.


It wouldn't be intolerable; my relationship with my family is very positive. However, the seed of moving out was planted around three years back and has never properly taken a back seat. I compromised on "wait a few more years", but the urge to go seems to be increasing pretty steadily with time, and I'm afraid that it will only get worse with time.



heyjude said:


> Endnote: I retired @55 due to starting my career debt free, my frugal lifestyle and an inheritance. You may not have that choice.


Honestly, I hope to work for as long as I can just because that's what I like doing. Of course, I could just be naive and this could change as I actually get to working. But I know that's a point of difference between at least my mom and I - I don't aspire to retire early because I am really excited about what I am going to do. But thanks so much for taking the time to respond, and I'll definitely start being better with my money if I want to be serious about this. 

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humble_pie, thanks for the congrats! You definitely captured that family dynamics is the bigger issue at hand here.



humble_pie said:


> if you move, will your parents continue to top up your tuition so generously?


They will, actually. They're really too kind to me, and despite my wanting to move they haven't threatened me with this.



humble_pie said:


> you may come from a culture where young adult offspring who continue to live at home with parents are the norm. Your own aspirations might be different, but your parents might 100% view this as normal.


Absolutely. We still live with my grandparents as well, and at least one of my family members imagines me starting a life with my family within the same house someday. I'm not sure how much they still believe this.



humble_pie said:


> next, your parents have made a whoppingly generous investment in your future. You are talking that they volunteer $8,000-10,000 each year to top up your tuition. You don't mention any kind of debt arrangements, so the big annual gift from the 'rents appears to be a total donation. This is huge.
> 
> but ... there are strings attached. I also sense that you might be an only child. If so the strings become even more intense. If you are the only child, imagine how you alone are channelling everything your parents had hoped & struggled to find in canada. There's a kind of emotional burden here, something you will carry for the rest of your parents' lives, so you want to find ways to make this burden as light as possible.


I am indeed an only child, and perhaps even more difficult, a daughter. However my parents are doing really well considering they moved here only a few years older than I am now with an infant-me in tow. When I offered to make some of their donations loans instead, they refused - my mom said that she feels it is her job to do everything she can for me, this included. While there aren't actual strings attached in the sense that they will not stop paying should I leave, there is some level of guilt in me that feels like "leaving them" a couple of years early despite everything is being a bit ungrateful for how wonderful they've been to me. While they don't mean to guilt trip me (or maybe they do), they have both expressed sadness at the thought of me not being in the house anymore.



humble_pie said:


> next, it's a bit unusual here in canada to find parents who are "planning" their offspring's existence up to the age of 30. Even for a young person who comes from the strictest & most cloistering of family background cultures, age 30 is far too late for parents in such a family to be fretting about what the offspring will or will not decide to do.


Sorry, I might have been unclear in my original post. They are not planning my existence up to the age of 30. I had expressed desires to settle down with a husband and kids by 30 and own a house just like they had; of course, before I met the struggle of modern dating. So my mom was simply talking about my future ability to fulfill my previously expressed dreams.



humble_pie said:


> i'm usually a middle-of-the-road person so perhaps you can take the situation one-year-at-a-time. Can you tolerate one more year at home? as heyjude says, sometimes that home cooking is mighty appealing. Not to speak of the laundry beautifully clean & folded back in the drawers & closets with no effort on your part. Not to speak of the warm family support.


Unfortunately it's either a two-year commitment or a leave next summer. I don't really get a summer between third and fourth year, so there would be no easy break to plan a move and try to adjust to living on my own for the very first time. That's also why this summer feels appealing - it's my last summer, and my last chance to figure some of these things out at my own pace. And, unfortunately, my cooking habits are very different from my family's so I only ever make my own comfort food; but having groceries and laundry done for me are absolutely a blessing in busy times.

--------​
Thanks for the really relevant (and human) cost-benefit, BigMonkey. 



BigMonkey said:


> In my opinion, live it up (travel, eat well, do what you like) as long as it doesn't conflict with your schooling or go overboard.
> 
> I know some individuals a little further down the road from your situation that regret not living it up when they were in your stage. They now make more money than they know what to do with, but are now burdened with limited time and other obligations.


That's not to say I'm not doing that right now. I'm really quite lucky, and have been using what I do earn from my jobs as well as additional support from my parents to travel and experience fun things around the city. But I would definitely be able to do so more with a bit more freedom with my own space.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Personally I differ from most here in that I would stay put if you have a good situation with your family, and this is coming from someone who is incredibly independent and wanted nothing but to get out and party when I was in my early 20's. But those next two years are going to be very difficult and you'll have enough on your plate without day to day life chores etc. I would listen to your parents on this one (they actually do know best most of the time, despite what I've always said) and you'll have a much better head start. You'll have plenty of time for everything when you're done school.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I had a friend who lived at home until the day he got married. He married a woman who'd been divorced and had her own place. Basically moved from a house where he was taken care of to a house where he assumed he'd be taken care of...

Didn't work out to well, as his wife didn't want to be his mother. He eventually moved back to his parents place. He'd spent too long living at home to be comfortable taking care of himself. 

I know others who moved out at 17 to go to school. His parents had to leave for an extended trip (more than a year) so asked him to move back to their place to take care of it. The day they came back, he'd just moved back out, much to their confusion. Once you've lived on your own it's hard to go back to living under someone else's rules and home.

Both people continue to live their lives (well the second guy got married and had kids, but could never live back home) and are comfortable with their choices. I believe the parents are also happy with the situation. 

My kids are getting to the age when they'll face this decision, I'm not sure I'd push them out, but I do think it's important to live on your own for at least a year or two before getting married.


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

thebeansterr said:


> Just a Guy, mordko, STech - you guys definitely captured a lot of what motivates me to move out in terms of that feeling of independence, responsibility, and getting a bit closer to being an actual adult. Unfortunately, these lessons are not clearly quantifiable in quite the same way as money is, so it's hard to make this argument feel potent sometimes. But having a few others in different life situations helps me feel a bit more justified in having such a feeling.


Do you think your parents are using the money argument to cover up the empty nest syndrome? It's very normal for them to feel that way, especially with an only child. I'm not trying to vilify your parents, or say their feelings are selfish and unjustified. The head start, and continued support they have given you is admirable. You need to make that very clear to them, and assure them you're not gonna change and will never forget what they've done for you. You need to prove to them moving out won't affect your studies, and that little extra stressor in your life will make you grow to a stronger and more rounded adult.

We're planning on more kids, but for now, we only have the 1 daughter. And I'll likely be shocked at the thought of my little princess living on her own one day. But I know logic and reason will take over and I'll support her decision when she's ready. However, she's not allowed to date anyone with a motorcycle. LOL. Even though I had a motorcycle to the day I got married, and I was even a motorcycle safety instructor for a few years.

Two other pieces of advice I can give you, and it's no different being male or female.

1) If you end up with roommates, choose carefully and make sure their studies are closely related to yours. The old UTM residences were separate townhouses and not dorms. My house had 6 guys. Me and 1 roommate were taking sciences, the other 4 were arts and drama majors. Personally we got along very well and it was a lot of fun. But the science guys needed the peace and quiet, while the drama majors needed to practice out loud. Find other med students if you can.

2) And this is a little further down the road for you, but I think it's VERY important for a couple to live together first before they decide to get married. You'd be amazed how many couples seem like a good match, until they start living together and they find out they can't stand each other's habits. I've gone through it with ex-girlfriends, I have friends who went through it, and unfortunately I think my younger brother is going through it now. He graduated in IT, and bought a house at 23. Worked for a few years, and at 27 went back to school and got a PHD. My sister in law stayed home until about 26, got her masters in pharmacy before meeting my brother. He finds her very homey, and her parents are very involved in her life still. She insisted on living very close to her parents, and my brother wants a little more privacy and separation from her family. It's been a year, so I really hope they find a happy medium. Otherwise she's a very nice, pleasant, intelligent, and compassionate person.


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

The parent/child dynamic can be extremely nuanced and decisions now will ripple through the rest of your life.

Whatever you do, I hope your approach to the decision is tempered by both their generosity and your need for freedom. If you do your best to help them understand your decision, it will very likely yield emotional dividends for the rest of your life.

Most of all, good for you that you have such a wonderful life ahead of you. You are a fortunate person.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

What TomB19 said. I note that the OP, like me, is an only child. Parents of only children tend to be overprotective. Mine certainly were. All their hopes and dreams are riding on the only child and they desperately want to see her succeed, but are fearful of the dangers out there. They will never believe you are actually all grown up until you demonstrate that you are responsible. Even then you will still be their baby. 

Funny true story:
I trained as a pediatrician and then went abroad for subspecialty training. I had family in the city that I was living in, and one day I was babysitting my cousin's two little kids when my mother phoned. When she discovered I was babysitting she was terrified at the idea of me looking after other people's children. Me, a fully trained pediatrician! "Mom, do you understand what type of work I do???"

My point is that the transition will be easier for everyone if the OP shows evidence of being a responsible adult before flying the coop. Notably, having a financial plan, a policy on responsible dating, selection of roommates, etc.


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## thebeansterr (Dec 4, 2016)

indexxx - you are my father's champion. ;D 

Just a Guy - we've actually talked about the pitfalls of both options, in a similar way that you outlined. Thanks for bringing personal examples of each as opposed to having it be theoretical. I think the plan will definitely be to live on my own at some point, they just want that to be two years later than I would like.

TomB19 - Thank you so much.  It surely seems to be the nuance we're trying to find our way through now.

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STech said:


> Do you think your parents are using the money argument to cover up the empty nest syndrome? It's very normal for them to feel that way, especially with an only child.


I'm not sure they would ever admit to it, but sometimes I do feel that it's an underlying feeling that we aren't discussing. I think they just like having me around, just like I do like being around, and having that sort of change to the household dynamic will definitely leave an impact. But I also believe they are truly concerned about the finances and the thought of me living in debt, and don't like the idea of me living beyond my means (i.e. not making any money but living in a downtown condo).



STech said:


> We're planning on more kids, but for now, we only have the 1 daughter. And I'll likely be shocked at the thought of my little princess living on her own one day. But I know logic and reason will take over and I'll support her decision when she's ready. However, she's not allowed to date anyone with a motorcycle. LOL. Even though I had a motorcycle to the day I got married, and I was even a motorcycle safety instructor for a few years.


Yeah, I figured it might be prudent to include the fact that I'm a girl in my last reply (as I realized my original post may not make that clear). I figured it would help people sympathize with my parents in a slightly different way, and I'm all for a balanced story.



STech said:


> 1) If you end up with roommates, choose carefully and make sure their studies are closely related to yours.


Oh, 100%. My plan is to either hook up with another second year moving out for clerkship (of which there are many), talk to one of my other friends from undergrad who I have an established rapport with and I know I can rely on (there are a couple I've been talking to), or to take in a first year med student (as most search for a med student roommate through a spreadsheet we create).



STech said:


> 2) And this is a little further down the road for you, but I think it's VERY important for a couple to live together first before they decide to get married.


Oh, _definitely_. I absolutely agree. I remember living with a past boyfriend for a month while his family was traveling and let's just say I learned a lot. So no disagreement there, not from myself nor my parents. They're much more open-minded and liberal than might be communicated through here. 

-----​


heyjude said:


> Funny true story:
> I trained as a pediatrician and then went abroad for subspecialty training. I had family in the city that I was living in, and one day I was babysitting my cousin's two little kids when my mother phoned. When she discovered I was babysitting she was terrified at the idea of me looking after other people's children. Me, a fully trained pediatrician! "Mom, do you understand what type of work I do???"


_Yessssss_. It's incredible how much I can accomplish and achieve and yet still have them get worried about or micromanage smaller details that were much easier than my journey to medical school, or what I do here sometimes. Glad to hear it doesn't get any better with time. 



heyjude said:


> Notably, having a financial plan, a policy on responsible dating, selection of roommates, etc


I agree on the financial plan (will get to work on this once exams are done), and the roommate thing is in the back of my mind even now (as per my response to STech). I respectfully disagree on the "policy" for responsible dating - my parents have always respectfully given me space on dating instead of trying to control it, and thus I do not have urges to get wild with my freedom as I might have if they were policing me throughout. Of course, it is much easier to date with the freedom of bringing a guy to my place without him having to meet the entire family, but that doesn't mean I'll be abusing it and will require extra policing from afar.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

You know, the best way to learn how to make smart choices and deal with things like debt are to actually deal with them. School is great for teaching the theoretical aspects of thing but, until you enter the real world, you never truly understand that real world doesn't always follow the theory. 

I remember when I decided to move out, I was still underage at the time, but I started planning. I started buying things I'd need on sale (pots and pans, dishes, cutlery, furniture, etc.). I paid cash for things, only buying what I could afford but I had time.

When I moved out, I had everything I needed but still I overspent in my first year (not running up a huge debt like 100k, but still spent more than I made). The reality of the situation sunk and I had to make changes to my lifestyle.

At the same time, other friends of mine also moved out. I remember visiting their places and they were so empty at first (you notice the sound of an empty place). They usually went on a spending spree and got themselves into huge financial problems. I'm pretty sure they all learned from the experience though. None went bankrupt, all managed to survive...

However, all of us knew going in that living on your own is different than what we thought, but it didn't really help any of us until we were forced to deal with the real world. 

You may discover ways to be more frugal on your own than living at home where there's a safety net. When I was injured and couldn't work, it was the best motivation I could ever have had to learn proper investing techniques. It also taught me how to be frugal enough to survive until my investments started to bear fruit as I had no safety net. Before that, I was too comfortable in my life to be bothered to really learn either lesson.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

.

when all i said & done, the situation appears to be more about the family dynamics than about the money.

the money boils down to rent for 2 years. After that, as a resident, the OP will be financially independent.

the OP has said her ontario grant will increase if she moves out. Also the forgivable portion will increase. Fin de compte, how could we be talking about more than $20-25k as rent for 2 years? perhaps less with a roommate?

i'm left wondering if the parents could afford this as well. Perhaps this portion of support could be structured as a formal intergenerational loan, with a less draconian rate than a bank would charge for a LOC.

if i were the parents, i would do this. In fact, i have done this, for an offspring attending graduate school & living independently. She has no student loan nor any debt at all. Everything has been financed by herself & her parents. On the other hand - unlike the OP who is a medical student - my child has been able to work throughout. Working as a TA right now.

.


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## nahc (Feb 22, 2011)

I wasn't an only child but I was a girl =) My parents only allowed me to apply to the med school in town just so they could make me live at home (it was a very good one though), although I sort of understand why (I was very young at that time). In my desperation to get out I messed with the CaRMS application to go far, far away just so I could not live at home (hopefully my parents don't read this forum, but it is waaaay back).

CC or whatever they call it now is a brutal introduction to the world of medical politics. You are by far the lowest person on the totem pole, although UT treats its CC or MSI much better than UBC (I was a resident at UT). Welcome to the world where nurses page you at 2 am in the morning because of wrong wristbands, patient disruptions, paperwork or other random assorted things because they can =) It builds character (as well as life-long mistrust). You may want to consider living at home for 2 more years where the homefront is relatively taken care of and move out for residency.

55k at as beginning resident is not a lot of money if you match to a Toronto residency. Downtown condos are expensive, like $2000 a month and then you got to factor in things like food and clothes (or you could do the tacky thing of wearing scrubs all the time). Most of my co-residents either came from moneyed backgrounds (v common in my specialty) or lived high on their LoC. Plus you have to pay for licensing exams, books (one set of textbooks, 2 vol, cost 500$ in one case), etc. I remember having to be very frugal to get by as a 1st year resident. So I think there is some merit in what your parents say. 

But, on the other hand, I really enjoyed being out on my own. The world didn't end, like my parents say it would. I could take care of myself just fine. (But they are still worried that I'm being picked on at work because I'm in ultra-competitive field, and every other doctor likes to pick on my specialty too...right...I'm 34...with kids...and a husband...and 2 FRCPCs and more than 10 years of doing what I do for a living.)


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

nahc said:


> Downtown condos are expensive, like $2000 a month


There are plenty of different living options out there in between staying at home for free, and $2000/month alone... even in an expensive city. 

Why not locate 1-3 other sensible, non-moneyed colleagues in your medical school and find a townhouse/house for you all to share?


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## bass player (Jan 27, 2016)

thebeansterr:

Financial considerations aside, based on your responses to the comments, I think no matter what path you choose, you seem very mature and grounded and will do just fine.


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## nahc (Feb 22, 2011)

peterk said:


> There are plenty of different living options out there in between staying at home for free, and $2000/month alone... even in an expensive city.
> 
> Why not locate 1-3 other sensible, non-moneyed colleagues in your medical school and find a townhouse/house for you all to share?


There is a reason why all the residents, fellows and CCs are downtown. All the major teaching hospitals are downtown on University Ave. Surgical rounds often start (for the surgeon at 6:30-7, OR starts at 7:30). MTU (medical teaching unit) is only slightly better. This means you, lowly resident/medical student are going to get up at 5 in the morning to pre-round on the patients and write the progress note (or pre-pre-round if you are the CC keener). If I recall, the TTC didn't even run that early in the morning when I was a resident making rounds, I walked to work (hence the very expensive and very close condo, if you want to survive). Or if you were really frugal you could just sleep in the cafeteria...(not recommended by the way, too many bodies doing that already in a teaching hosp due to lack of call rooms). Plus, on the "easy" rotations, like respirology, or rheum, where you are not in house, you could go home, provided you could get back to the hospital in 15-20 minutes or so in the middle of the night. Cabs are expensive. 2000$ is the going rate (back in 2010) for a 1 bedroom place close to the teaching hospitals, close enough to do pager call from =(, ie"take care of things properly" when your angry attending demands on sat afternoon post call why the consultant service hasn't seen your patient yet and starts paging YOU nonstop (because you the idiot forgot to turn the pager off). A little different from a regular day job =) The most frugal resident in my yr lived at home and rented a den downtown for when he was on call/post-call/etc.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

nahc said:


> ... if you were really frugal you could just sleep in the cafeteria...(not recommended by the way, too many bodies doing that already in a teaching hosp due to lack of call rooms) ... The most frugal resident in my yr lived at home and rented a den downtown for when he was on call/post-call/etc.




your post plus peterk's shared housing suggestion makes me wonder why some enterprising RE type doesn't buy a house near the downtown hospitals & run it as a crash pad for medical students on rotations plus residents on call?

this would permit the students & the residents to actually live somewhere else where they could have a real life. Then during intensely gruelling on call rotations they could move downtown, into the crash.

the place would probably need a live-in housekeeper. A multi-skilled. Everything from running the washer/dryer night & day to maintaining the room booking spreadsheet.

your details re exhausted clerks & residents napping in hospital cafeterias do remind me why foreign medical students who sign up for french classes at mcGill often tend to fall asleep in class though (on top of everything else, med professionals in quebec have to pass proficiency exams in both languages) ...

.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

If the schedule is really that hectic and demanding then I suppose the choice is clear. Pay the price to get the housing you need - Living at home and commuting will be unacceptable for success at school.

I am skeptical that you cannot find suitable accommodation for $1000/month that is in walking distance. Surely 2 or 3 of you can find an apartment for $2000 or $3000/month in the location you need? Our CMF Toronto condo landlords are regularly reminding of the increasing vacancy, decreasing rents, and false data regarding Toronto condo demand that is being pushed by the realtor cartel.

If it were me, I would just pay the man and get the good apartment for $2000. You can absorb the debt. So long as you are very confident that you are cut out for another 8 years of schooling and residency, that you will someday actually be a highly paid physician.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

bass player said:


> thebeansterr:
> 
> Financial considerations aside, based on your responses to the comments, I think no matter what path you choose, you seem very mature and grounded and will do just fine.


I think so too. 

Reading this thread reminds me to thank God I am retired from medicine.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

My friend's son was renting a room for $450 a week near the hospital when he was doing his rotations there summer 2015 ,this lady only rented to medical students so I am sure there are accommodations close by.We started paying $1550 plus hydro and cable for a 635 sq ft one bedroom + den at Lakeshore/Parklawn for our oldest about 16 months ago ,anything closer to downtown when we looked was about $300 more and under 500 sq ft which makes it difficult to share with a roommate.


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

humble_pie said:


> your post plus peterk's shared housing suggestion makes me wonder why some enterprising RE type doesn't buy a house near the downtown hospitals & run it as a crash pad for medical students on rotations plus residents on call?


Maybe, just maybe, someone has... in every city and town that has a hospital. I hear it's quite an industry.

He should check the doctor's lounge and the college of physicians. They will have a bulletin board, email list, or some form of group communication for housing facilities. .... or so I've heard. lol!


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## Fufu (May 18, 2020)

heyjude said:


> For context: I lived at home through medical school, graduating at 23 with no debt, and left home two years later, against my parents' wishes, but recognizing that it was time. It was long ago and far away.
> 
> Some of the factors I would consider are:
> 1. How much debt are you likely to rack up by the time you graduate? In 2014, Queens estimated the average debt at graduation to be over $71,000. Medical Student Debt:
> ...


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

If it would inspire you, my son wanted to attend school in another city. Covid, of course, has impacted his decision and he’s currently doing remote access. However, to pay for his school and residence while away, he bought a local three bedroom condo for Z79k, fixed it up and rents it for 1500/month. The profits he makes would have paid for his room and board in the other city and the money comes in every month. If you take the Smokey aspect out of the equation, with a plan to replace it with passive income,you May find out what the real problem is. Plus, you’ll have passive income ensuring your future going forward.


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