# COVID-19 thread for 2022



## moderator2

Continuing the discussion here in a new thread.

Here's the old COVID-19 thread for 2020 and 2021


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## moderator2

Also, here's the old vaccine thread. Please post everything relating to COVID-19 and vaccination in this new (2022) thread instead.

Wishing all of you a Happy New Year, good health in the year ahead, and hopefully the end of this pandemic.


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## damian13ster

In UK,
Unvaccinated account for 25% of Omicron hospitalizations
18% of those eligible are unvaccinated
30% of total population is unvaccinated

Delta has been pushed out. As of Jan 1, 2022, they will no longer separate the strain as pretty much all new cases are Omicron



https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1044522/20211231_OS_Daily_Omicron_Overview.pdf


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## Thal81

In Quebec, we're starting 2022 with a curfew (10PM to 5AM), most stores are forced to close on Sundays and there are no private gatherings indoors or outdoors. These new measures have not been well received by the public and even the media, to say the least, there's quite a lot of shock and outrage going around.

Honestly, I'm more worried about civil unrest now than I am about the virus. Our government needs to take harsh actions against the unvaccinated, not punish the 90%+ who did their civic duty. Personally I'm done playing good little sheep, I don't believe my government is making good decisions anymore. I will do what's right for me, I will get my 3rd dose only when it's convenient for me to do so, and I will fight against stupid measures whenever I get the chance.


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## Ukrainiandude

There's a certain portion of the population who won't let go of the virus. They want as many vaccines and boosters as they come. The truth is the variants are more like a mild flu case, according to international data. Can't deny it anymore.


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## Eder

I think at this stage its a bit pointless blaming the state of Covid on the vaccinated. We are far past the point experts promised herd immunity. First time ever the failure of a medicine is blamed on the people that didn't take it.


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## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> There's a certain portion of the population who won't let go of the virus. They want as many vaccines and boosters as they come. The truth is the variants are more like a mild flu case, according to international data. Can't deny it anymore.


I think it's still to early to say that will be the actual impact.
The problem with Omicron, even if it is only "flu like" is that so many people are catching it. 
Normally a few thousand die every year (2-8k/yr in Canada) with a flu and without overwhelming our hospitals.
If the flu vaccine is well matched for the year it is very effective.

I just saw that Ontario was up to 0.1% of the population testing positive in a single day, and we're tight on testing capacity. It is clearly endemic, we're all going to get it, likely within the month.
The problem is that even with a ICU hospitalization rate of 20/100k (0.02%) (which from memory is at the lower end of current Omicron data), that means nearly 3000 hospitalizations in Ontario, which is almost 150% of our total ICU capacity. Also consider that if everyone get "flu-like" symptoms at the same time, our hospitals will be short staffed.

I think right now we're at the lowest personal risk since the pandemic began, and the highest system-overload risk.
Right now is when we need to "flatten the curve", which nobody wants to hear about.

That being said, anecdotally I'm seeing.
People who are not sick aren't isolating, lots of holiday gatherings.
Also I've seen a lot of people who are sick are isolating

I think for people who've been under restrictions on and off for 2 years, they're somewhat reasonable in my little window into the world. I'm more cautious, but in some places they're far less cautious.

My plan, I don't want to get sick until the end of the month.. I think I'm going to skip a social engagement this weekend, like I did over the holidays, I don't want to be at the peak of this next wave.

For data, I'm going to watch jurisdictions which aren't restricting tests and see what happens. As someone in Ontario, I'm going to watch Quebec since they seem to lead and be doing _slightly_ worse than Ontario.


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## Beaver101

What I'm hearing from posters from above #3, 5 and 6 is "what pandemic?". Is there a pandemic? The answer is obviously "no, there isn't one on CMF", only hot air /typings threads.

Or better yet start with "what's a pandemic?" All needs a definition for that, even it's not Covid.


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## HappilyRetired

Dr Robert Malone, one of the inventors of mRNA technology (he holds several patents), and who is one of the most qualified people in the world on the subject has been banned from Twitter for going against the current narrative.


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## Beaver101

Thal81 said:


> In Quebec, we're starting 2022 with a curfew (10PM to 5AM), most stores are forced to close on Sundays and there are no private gatherings indoors or outdoors. These new measures have not been well received by the public and even the media, to say the least, there's quite a lot of shock and outrage going around.
> 
> Honestly, I'm more worried about civil unrest now than I am about the virus. Our government needs to take harsh actions against the unvaccinated, not punish the 90%+ who did their civic duty.* Personally I'm done playing good little sheep, I don't believe my government is making good decisions anymore. I will do what's right for me, I will get my 3rd dose only when it's convenient for me to do so, and I will fight against stupid measures whenever I get the chance.*


 ... your choice. Just be prepared to face the consequences of those choices.


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## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Dr Robert Malone, one of the inventors of mRNA technology (he holds several patents), and who is one of the most qualified people in the world on the subject has been banned from Twitter for going against the current narrative.


 ... that's because he has been spreading misinformations out there.

Don't you think your note above in brackets ("he holds several patents") says it all ... the contradiction ... as "an inventor of mRNA technology" going against the current narrative that the mRNA technology that "he "invented is actually "useful" to reduce the severity of Covid? 

Maybe he should put his efforts into suing Pfizer, Moderna and all the pharmaceuticals who are using his "patents" illegally instead of harping on Twitter and podcasts of various dark websites whilst feeding materials to Tucker Carlson for his nightly shows.


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## Eder

The more information the better to form an informed opinion. I read what Fauci says & read what Malone says...both experts, both with agendas. I have never bothered reading what Tam says though lol.


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## sags

Do you guys not get the news ?

Hospitals in the US are at maximum capacity. From city after city, doctors and nurses are describing the situation in their hospitals.

Ambulances are being turned away with accident victims, gunshot wounds, heart attacks because there are no beds for them.

Children are being affected by Omicron, and doctors are seeing covid caused croup and pneumonia at a rising rate.

Kids are 10 times more likely to be hospitalized if not vaccinated. Children under the age of 5 are most seriously affected.

In Ontario, the government will no longer test for covid in schools. Other Provinces are edging closer to a disaster situation.

It appears the Ford government doesn't want parents to know the numbers. If I had kids in school.......they wouldn't be going.


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## HappilyRetired

I remember the fake story of gunshot victims (calmly) standing in line while people were being treated for overdosing on horse dewormer. 

‘NO one thought to fact-check?’ Rolling Stone, Rachel Maddow BUSTED pushing FAKE story about OK hospitals overwhelmed with horse dewormer ODs – twitchy.com

I put as much credibility into sags claims as the above.


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## sags

You can live in your own imaginary world if you want, but it doesn't change what is happening in the real one.


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## HappilyRetired

I live in the same world as you, I just choose not to live in fear. We're currently enjoying a month in Florida where, if you believe the media, is unsafe and our lives are at risk. Of course it's just as safe as most other places but not if you listen to the media.

You can stay home for the rest of your life. We decided to enjoy ours.


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## Ukrainiandude

HappilyRetired said:


> We're currently enjoying a month in Florida


Good for you. Here we got minus 36 in the morning.
How do you accommodate there, hotel, rents, trailer, own property? What is the most cost efficient way to stay in the warm climates? I want in the near future to leave this bloody Siberian weather (I stopped believing in global warming when I moved to Canada) for five or six months per year. 
Plus I might save on taxes if my income is only half. Thanks


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## HappilyRetired

Ukrainiandude said:


> Good for you. Here we got minus 36 in the morning.
> How do you accommodate there, hotel, rents, trailer, own property? What is the most cost efficient way to stay in the warm climates? I want in the near future to leave this bloody Siberian weather (I stopped believing in global warming when I moved to Canada) for five or six months per year.
> Plus I might save on taxes if my income is only half. Thanks


We're staying in 2 different Airbnb's. Total cost about $3700 for about 34 days. It's not cheap but it's also not ridiculously expensive. We only stay in places with parking and kitchen as we drove down and prefer to cook our own meals. We're also a 1-minute walk to the beach/ocean so that increases the cost. One of the places (where we are right now) is a 2 bedroom main floor unit about 700 sq ft, half of a duplex. The owner lives above us in the other unit. The next place is a 1 bedroom apartment.

We booked late so selection was limited which is why we had to split our stay into 2 different places. The longer you stay the less expensive it gets as you will usually get a discount.


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## Money172375

HappilyRetired said:


> We're staying in 2 different Airbnb's. Total cost about $3700 for about 34 days. It's not cheap but it's also not ridiculously expensive. We only stay in places with parking and kitchen as we drove down and prefer to cook our own meals. We're also a 1-minute walk to the beach/ocean so that increases the cost. One of the places (where we are right now) is a 2 bedroom main floor unit about 700 sq ft, half of a duplex. The owner lives above us in the other unit. The next place is a 1 bedroom apartment.
> 
> We booked late so selection was limited which is why we had to split our stay into 2 different places. The longer you stay the less expensive it gets as you will usually get a discount.


I have friends who visit north Florida. Not as warm…maybe 15-22c. They pay $1100 US/month. Jan and Feb. Small condo. Walking distance to the gulf.


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## Mortgage u/w

We should not be looking at the USA as a model. 0.25% of their population died from covid vs <0.10% in Canada. State of Florida is even worse.


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## HappilyRetired

Money172375 said:


> I have friends who visit north Florida. Not as warm…maybe 15-22c. They pay $1100 US/month. Jan and Feb. Small condo. Walking distance to the gulf.


We booked late and couldn't find a better deal. Had we booked earlier and for a longer period we would have done better.


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## HappilyRetired

Mortgage u/w said:


> We should not be looking at the USA as a model. 0.25% of their population died from covid vs <0.10% in Canada. State of Florida is even worse.


They died with Covid, not of Covid. 

Florida has a lower fatality rate than 9 other states, but they also have a higher percentage of at risk (elderly) people than most states.

• U.S. COVID-19 death rate by state | Statista


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## Mortgage u/w

Florida is registered at 0.29% death rate.


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## HappilyRetired

Mortgage u/w said:


> Florida is registered at 0.29% death rate.


Yes. New York is 0.30% fatality rate.


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## like_to_retire

HappilyRetired said:


> Yes. New York is 0.30% fatality rate.


Well now you're just bragging.

ltr


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## HappilyRetired

like_to_retire said:


> Well now you're just bragging.
> 
> ltr


All we hear about is how bad Florida is, yet New York is worse and that's never mentioned. They had stronger restrictions and more and longer lockdowns yet they fared worse.


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## damian13ster

You really need to account for differences in how deaths are counted.

Check for yourself how for example UK counts covid deaths.
You wouldn't believe me if I told you 😅


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## like_to_retire

HappilyRetired said:


> All we hear about is how bad Florida is, yet New York is worse and that's never mentioned. They had stronger restrictions and more and longer lockdowns yet they fared worse.


Justification and grasping at straws...............

ltr


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## damian13ster

A: 'They are doing good'
B: 'Yeah, but look at the death rate!'
A: 'Yeah, look at the death rate!'
B: 'Looking at death rate is grasping at straws'

10/10 for quality of debate


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## Mortgage u/w

All I hear is how the USA has no restrictions and they are doing fine.

The numbers don’t support what I hear.


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## HappilyRetired

like_to_retire said:


> Justification and grasping at straws...............
> 
> ltr


Not grasping, just pointing out that a state with much stricter guidelines did worse than a state with almost no restrictions.

Explain that using science, please. If you can.


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## Beaver101

sags said:


> Do you guys not get the news ?
> 
> Hospitals in the US are at maximum capacity. From city after city, doctors and nurses are describing the situation in their hospitals.
> 
> Ambulances are being turned away with accident victims, gunshot wounds, heart attacks because there are no beds for them.
> 
> Children are being affected by Omicron, and doctors are seeing covid caused croup and pneumonia at a rising rate.
> 
> Kids are 10 times more likely to be hospitalized if not vaccinated. Children under the age of 5 are most seriously affected.
> 
> In Ontario, the government will no longer test for covid in schools. Other Provinces are edging closer to a disaster situation.
> 
> It appears the Ford government doesn't want parents to know the numbers. If I had kids in school.......they wouldn't be going.


 ...strangely enough, this kind of warning news doesn't get posted.

US children hospitalized with COVID in record numbers

Instead braggist trollers (and sadly from from Canada) loves to tell everyone that they found the "secret spot" of not catching Covid by basking alone in a sun-baked Floridian beach. I guess kids aren't counted as humans to them either. Definitely, going back to school ain't a concern for them.


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## HappilyRetired

Mortgage u/w said:


> All I hear is how the USA has no restrictions and they are doing fine.
> 
> The numbers don’t support what I hear.


Dying with Covid isn't the same as dying of Covid.

Until the real numbers come out a comparison is impossible.


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## Mortgage u/w

HappilyRetired said:


> Dying with Covid isn't the same as dying of Covid.
> 
> Until the real numbers come out a comparison is impossible.


Are you the world coroner?


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## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ...strangely enough, this kind of warning news doesn't get posted.
> 
> US children hospitalized with COVID in record numbers
> 
> Instead braggist trollers (and sadly from from Canada) loves to tell everyone that the found the secret spot of not catching Covid by basking alone in a sun-baked Floridian beach. I guess kids aren't counted as humans to them either.


As usual, you are leaving out important facts in a weak attempt to prove your point. They have Covid but the vast majority are in the hospital for something else according to Dr Fauci. They only knew that they had Covid because they were tested for it, not because they had symptoms.


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## HappilyRetired

Mortgage u/w said:


> Are you the world coroner?


It's tough when you're faced with facts you don't like, isn't it?


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## damian13ster

Mortgage u/w said:


> Are you the world coroner?


The reporting standard is the same across US, is it?
Meanwhile it is not the same between Canada, US, UK, Belgium, etc.

So compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.

Here is a comparison for 2020 for US states


https://cdn.jamanetwork.com/ama/content_public/journal/jama/938690/jld210023t1_1620138060.83536.png?Expires=1643314294&Signature=xfGUi14hTxzKmS8be7Y7RyqgnksACovuwnaLf5ag1KQ719kOZKlmI~IWGOZqpxNfrGXXkKO0yAOtp49nGQeCz1Xoa-7XF8OhRwnSZZADW16ugl5-CQGjc0rm05dmoTK-9gFGZFYo0s7ANa8ToShPDvIQj9mVSUZsCHonnaZrlgKHCFytHrJ2bq30H8acYSJA4q7LRLjspFXuPpU0Qla6yx-hCBN5IiWMsthIn6LDRbMA6J5FzMgt7PHZmVsy0St8B7rwAIy7oxckVWLQLWORQCCraV~Od-YV5nnIYvhIkCStKhwfB5ECoFSPEvhGZoJm1E9OY2Lpp8yJy~XkTtvYYQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIE5G5CRDK6RD3PGA


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## sags

HappilyRetired said:


> As usual, you are leaving out important facts in a weak attempt to prove your point. They have Covid but the vast majority are in the hospital for something else according to Dr Fauci. They only knew that they had Covid because they were tested for it, not because they had symptoms.


BS.....pay attention to what the ER docs are saying.


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## Eder

It depends on where you place your values...quality or quantity. I'm an at risk person but I hardly feel a 30 year old should be not allowed to have drinks in a bar with friends for fear I may get sick. Let us geezers lock down or whatever if we want...let those not in danger carry on.

At least here in Arizona the government understands this...most likely Florida as well. Even California...land of masks and honey...had a terrific Rose Bowl parade with 100 of thousands attending....kids in Quebec had to go home at 10pm and hide under their bed.

btw a rv is a great way to enjoy Florida...especially my favourite part...the Keys. We spent many winters there but not for the last 6 years or so. Hope to get out there after the Baja.


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## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> BS


Are you saying that Dr Fauci lied?


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## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> As usual, you are leaving out important facts in a weak attempt to prove your point. They have Covid but the vast majority are in the hospital for something else according to Dr Fauci. They only knew that they had Covid because they were tested for it, not because they had symptoms.


 ... why don't you actually "read as with your eyeballs and your brain intact if you have one, and mouth shut" on the article instead of spouting your own BULLSH1T nonsense with the ... according to Dr. Fauci and your typical outright declaration of falsehoods of me leaving out the "important facts".

And now would it please you that I should point out the most "important fact" from that article:



> _SEATTLE -- The omicron-fueled surge that is sending COVID-19 cases rocketing in the U.S. is putting children in the hospital in record numbers, and *experts lament that most of the youngsters are not vaccinated.*
> 
> “It’s just so heartbreaking,” said Dr. Paul Offit, an infectious-disease expert at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia. "It was hard enough last year, but now you know that you have a way to prevent all this.”_


Or are you too ch1cken-sh1t to see the last part of it:



> _Almost 199,000 child COVID-19 cases were reported during the week of Dec. 16-23, the pediatrics group said. That was about 20% of the more than 950,000 total cases recorded that week.
> 
> While many of these children will recover at home, they may have contact with others who are at much greater risk, said Dr. Jason Terk, a pediatrician in North Texas. He cared for a 10-year-old boy with COVID-19 who managed the disease well, but his father got sick and died, he said.
> 
> “The death of a parent is devastating, but the toxic stress for a young person in this situation is difficult to measure,” he said. ———_


Talk about earning title of Team-leader of the Morons-R-Us gang on CMF.


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## sags

I said BS.......listen to what the ER docs are saying.

People would be better off not searching the internet for information to confirm their biases, especially when they don't know how to read the data anyways.


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## HappilyRetired

“But the other important thing is that if you look at the children who are hospitalized, many of them are hospitalized *with Covid as opposed to because of Covid*,” Fauci continued, emphasis added. “And what we mean by that — if a child goes in the hospital, they automatically get tested for Covid. And they get counted as a Covid-hospitalized individual. When in fact, they may go in for a broken leg or appendicitis or something like that. So, it’s over-counting the number of children who are, quote, ‘hospitalized with Covid,’ as opposed to because of Covid.”


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## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> “But the other important thing is that if you look at the children who are hospitalized, many of them are hospitalized *with Covid as opposed to because of Covid*,” Fauci continued, emphasis added. “And what we mean by that — if a child goes in the hospital, they automatically get tested for Covid. And they get counted as a Covid-hospitalized individual. When in fact, they may go in for a broken leg or appendicitis or something like that. So, it’s over-counting the number of children who are, quote, ‘hospitalized with Covid,’ as opposed to because of Covid.”


 ... yeah yeah yeah.... spin spin spin. And as you were going to listen to Dr. Fauci as him being correct all along ... only to suit your BS spins.


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## sags

What part of what the ER doctors are saying is so difficult for some people to understand ?


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## bgc_fan

Strange that people are using Florida as an example of how well things are going since they just broke their daily case record: Florida breaks single-day COVID case record

But I guess if they don't have restrictions, that doesn't count.


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## damian13ster

No, it just shows that Florida is doing objectively (excess deaths, covid deaths) better than majority of states with much less infringements on freedoms, interference in economy, and abuse of human rights than other states.
It clearly shows that restrictions are completely ineffective since states with much harsher restrictions are doing worse than Florida.

As a counterargument, we should look at Italy, France, and conclude that any restrictions, covid passports, limitations, segregations are absolutely useless and counter-effective because they are beating their records every single day by a factor close to 2?
Should we blame vaccine passports, lockdowns, restrictions for the fact that they have terrible results?
Or should we simply finally notice that vaccine passports and restrictions are useless and ineffective?


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## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... yeah yeah yeah.... spin spin spin. And as you were going to listen to Dr. Fauci as him being correct all along ... only to suit your BS spins.


I provided a direct quote from Fauci and you call it BS spin.


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## Eder

With Omicron case counts mean nothing except for the media of course.


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## sags

The common thread among the ER doctors is.........the public underestimates what is going to happen and the government refuses to listen and act.


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## Mortgage u/w

HappilyRetired said:


> It's tough when you're faced with facts you don't like, isn't it?


not sure what facts you are referring to. But you are definitely spinning data to justify your ideology.
Regardless how you want to qualify the deaths, the percentages are clearly higher in the US than Canada.


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## HappilyRetired

bgc_fan said:


> Strange that people are using Florida as an example of how well things are going since they just broke their daily case record: Florida breaks single-day COVID case record
> 
> But I guess if they don't have restrictions, that doesn't count.


How come New York with much harsher restrictions has a higher fatality rate?


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## sags

HappilyRetired said:


> I provided a direct quote from Fauci and you call it BS spin.


Fauci lied about funding research in Wuhan to enhance the virus. He lied when it said it wasn't possible for a virus to escape the lab.

I don't put any weight on what he says, or Doctor Tam, or anyone in politics or appointed by politicians. They all have ulterior motives and political bias.

I don't care what a retired nurse who pretends to be a doctor on Youtube says either........or all the "fakes and pretenders" on Fox News.

I only care what the ER doctors and nurses are saying........that is it and that is all.

I will leave it up to others to forage through data on internet for something to support their conclusions.


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## HappilyRetired

Mortgage u/w said:


> not sure what facts you are referring to. But you are definitely spinning data to justify your ideology.
> Regardless how you want to qualify the deaths, the percentages are clearly higher in the US than Canada.


I only want to count actual Covid deaths. The US counts deaths with Covid as a Covid death even if they died from something else.


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## james4beach

sags said:


> Do you guys not get the news ?


I think many people are able to stick their head in the sand, or ignore information that they don't like.

Here's what I'm seeing. Among my friends, I already know two _entire families_ who caught covid during the Christmas break. My friend's mom is now in the ICU.



Mortgage u/w said:


> We should not be looking at the USA as a model. 0.25% of their population died from covid vs <0.10% in Canada. State of Florida is even worse.


Exactly. And the omicron infections have just started increasing exponentially in Florida. The government shows no interest in protecting the public. The US and states like Florida are a disaster. We need to look instead to countries that have done reasonably well through the pandemic, like South Korea and Taiwan.

Canada has done much better than the US at protecting our population and keeping people alive. There is nothing to admire about the US.


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## damian13ster

The government likes to pretend they can protect the public against Omicron.
They can't.
Look at New York. Look at Quebec. Look at Italy. Look at France.
Are you going to blame what happened to your family on the government?

All government can do right now is hurt people.
Unfortunately, they want to be seen as doing something, so that's precisely what they do.

US is extremely important to look at. Not because they have done well.
Because it is pretty much the only country in the world where individual States had vastly different responses. So you can compare how responses measured against each other under same CDC reporting guidelines.


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## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> The government likes to pretend they can protect the public against Omicron.
> They can't.
> Look at New York. Look at Quebec. Look at Italy. Look at France.


Sure they can. They just have to stop being stupid, and actually close down things which are posing a very high risk.

It's the reluctance to inconvenience people which has allowed omicron to spread like wildfire. We're coddling the public too much, letting them do any damned thing they want to do. Everywhere I looked in the last two weeks, I've seen packed restaurants, cafes, large groups of friends gathering, gyms open, sports events open, and of course huge amounts of travel between provinces.

The biggest failure of government was trying to pretend everything is normal and letting people have Christmas fun. They should have shut down all non-household gatherings before Christmas, but they didn't want to do this. Apparently it was more important for people to have huge Christmas gatherings -- and hopping around between parties.

Christmas and New Years = super spreader events

Now we'll pay the price.


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## damian13ster

The thing spreads across corridors in quarantine hotels. From fully vaccinated to fully vaccinated. How do you stop that?

They are being stupid, but for completely different reason than your post indicates.
Quebec has curfews, etc. Italy and France have strictest human rights abuse and segregation. They all are beating records and are beating them significantly, relentlessly, every single day


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## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> Quebec has curfews, etc


You're twisting the truth in every way. Quebec only brought back the curfew yesterday. I don't know the situation of all these cities today, but just about everywhere in Canada over the last ~ 2 weeks, it's been "party time" as normal.

All of it could have been avoided.


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## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> You're twisting the truth in every way. Quebec only brought back the curfew yesterday. I don't know the situation of all these cities today, but just about everywhere in Canada over the last ~ 2 weeks, it's been "party time" as normal.
> 
> All of it could have been avoided.


The thing spreads across corridors in quarantine hotels. From fully vaccinated to fully vaccinated. How do you stop that?


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## Mortgage u/w

HappilyRetired said:


> I only want to count actual Covid deaths. The US counts deaths with Covid as a Covid death even if they died from something else.


Unless you counted them yourself, we have to assume the Numbers are reported the same.


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## damian13ster

Mortgage u/w said:


> Unless you counted them yourself, we have to assume the Numbers are reported the same.


No, you don't.
Not across countries. 
Some have stated the standards of counting publicly. They vary - extremely - from one to the other.


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## damian13ster

Ottawa COVID-19 wastewater surveillance - Ottawa COVID19







613covid.ca





Delta pushed out. Extremely quickly. Like anyone with half a brain cell could have predicted.


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## Mortgage u/w

damian13ster said:


> No, you don't.
> Not across countries.
> Some have stated the standards of counting publicly. They vary - extremely - from one to the other.


Of course. Now we even have to debate how stats are rendered.


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## damian13ster

Mortgage u/w said:


> Of course. Now we even have to debate how stats are rendered.


No, you really don't. Same way you (hopefully) don't debate that 2 + 2 = 4.

It is a fact that the way deaths are counted vary from country to country.
For example, NHS looks at how many people died within 28 days of testing positive.
It doesn't matter whether they were symptomatic, had symptoms, were hospitalized, died of old age, from COVID, with gunshot wound in back-alley, or in a car crash.
Now, if you wanted to find amount of deaths likely attributed to COVID you would have to look at demographics that made up positive tests and what would be the expected deaths among this group within any 28 day period.

Or you can acknowledge that it is much different way of measuring than Canada has; therefore, you can't do direct comparison.

What you can do however, is make a direct comparison between regions in UK.


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## bgc_fan

HappilyRetired said:


> How come New York with much harsher restrictions has a higher fatality rate?


Another one of those people who think you can correlate separate issues that have little correlation because it's a lot more complicated than that.

First of all, that higher fatality rate is based on all time from the start of covid. You know when it hit the major population centres hard on the first wave like New York and California because that's where a lot of the international travelers were transiting. It's also the fact that those happened before the vaccines and any restrictions were put in place. 

















You notice a significant difference between the two sets of data over the same time period? New York had the majority of the deaths in the first wave, and then had a bump in the second wave, otherwise it has been steady under 100 deaths. Meanwhile, Florida missed out on the first wave, but decided to make it up on the second, third, and fourth wave. Of course, the increase in mortality after vaccines were available should be an indication that Florida did something wrong as you should be seeing a decrease, or at least not as big a spike.

As for harsher restrictions, you'll have to define the time period, because New York is pretty open: State by State Coronavirus-Related Restrictions

*• New York: *Fully reopened. Gov. Kathy Hochul (D) announced that effective Dec. 13, individuals 2 and older must wear a mask in indoor public spaces unless the business or venue requires proof of vaccination for individuals who are 12 and older. The mandate lasts until Jan. 15. Previously, she announced mask requirements for state-regulated child care, mental health and addiction facilities. Individuals 2 and older must wear a mask in those places regardless of vaccination status. On July 28, then-Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) announced that state employees must show proof of vaccination or submit to regular testing. Cuomo also required patient-facing state health care employees to be vaccinated, without a test-out option. Hochul extended that requirement to employees at mental health facilities. On Aug. 4, New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio (D) announced that individuals won’t be allowed to enter indoor restaurants, gyms or entertainment facilities without proof that they have gotten at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine. Enforcement began Sept. 13.

*•* *Florida:* Fully reopened. On Sept. 22, Florida Surgeon General Joseph Ladapo dropped a requirement stating that before public school students can return to campus, they must quarantine for at least four days after being exposed to COVID-19. On July 30, Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) signed an order protecting the right of parents to choose whether their children wear a mask in schools. In May, the governor signed a bill that prohibits vaccine passports. 

Miami-Dade County Mayor Daniella Levine Cava announced individuals must wear a mask in county facilities, regardless of vaccination status.


----------



## damian13ster

You accuse people of correlating separate issues and then you proceed to do exactly that.

Florida has different timing of waves than New York does. Just look at timing of the peaks - seasonal
It has nothing to do with international travel either. 
It has nothing to do with restrictions.
Simply different geographies have different timing of waves.
Despite Florida having a wave over the summer and New York just beginning its, New York still has more excess deaths than Florida


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> You accuse people of correlating separate issues and then you proceed to do exactly that.
> 
> Florida has different timing of waves than New York does. Just look at timing of the peaks - seasonal
> It has nothing to do with international travel either.
> It has nothing to do with restrictions.
> Simply different geographies have different timing of waves.
> Despite Florida having a wave over the summer and New York just beginning its, New York still has more excess deaths than Florida


Not sure I can take someone who is scientifically illiterate seriously, but let's look at your assertions:

Seasonal: 
New York: 1st wave: Mar - Jul 2020, 2nd wave-ish: Dec 2020-Mar 2021.... not exactly a yearly cycle
Florida: 1st wave: Jul - Aug 2020, 2nd wave: Nov 2020-Mar 2021, 3rd wave: Jul-Nov 2021. not quite seasonal as it seems to be throughout the year including all months.

International travel: 
Given that covid obviously started overseas, the most likely ports of entry are international flight destinations. The top 10 major ones in North America:

Toronto-Pearson (YYZ)
New York (JFK)
Miami (MIA)
Montreal (YUL)
Los Angeles (LAX)
Newark (EWR)
Atlanta (ATL)
Chicago-O'Hare (ORD)
Vancouver (YVR)
Houston Intercontinental (IAH)
The other considerations are where the flights are coming from, Carribean and South America origins (Miami) were unlikely going to be the source of covid like Asia, and Europe which would fly into LA and New York.

But if you're going to say that Florida's wave is over, based on your theory of seasonality, we should expect another wave now to mirror the Nov 2020-Mar 2021 wave.


----------



## damian13ster

July 2020 was literally the bottom in cases. Wave was Mar-April. The following year was December- March, and now it started in December again. 

Florida started in July, then started late November, then July again, and now starting in December.

You know what they all have in common? - people go indoors.
That's where the transmission happens, that's where the problem lays.
That's why restrictions are useless - they push people indoors.
Close the restaurants - people will gather at homes with worse ventilations.
Close the national parks (idiots should be fired on the spot for that) - people will go indoors.


----------



## damian13ster

And with Omicron it is hard to predict. That sucker jumps across hallways in quarantine hotels from fully vaccinated people to fully vaccinated people. Whole different game. 

Would rather take my chances in national park or well ventilated public spaces than crammed in apartment.


----------



## kcowan2000

james4beach said:


> I think many people are able to stick their head in the sand, or ignore information that they don't like.
> 
> Here's what I'm seeing. Among my friends, I already know two _entire families_ who caught covid during the Christmas break. My friend's mom is now in the ICU.


And I am seeing my son, his wife and and my grandson with Omicron. Doing well so far, and a close friend, his wife, daughter, SIL, and grand daughter all with Omicron. Also doing well.

Of note, the SIL took a home test that was negative but he went for a PCR test and was positive.


----------



## MrMatt

kcowan2000 said:


> And I am seeing my son, his wife and and my grandson with Omicron. Doing well so far, and a close friend, his wife, daughter, SIL, and grand daughter all with Omicron. Also doing well.
> 
> Of note, the SIL took a home test that was negative but he went for a PCR test and was positive.


It's important to note that the home kits (rapid antigen) have a horrible false negative rate, assuming they're even done correctly.

They're ok at saying you have COVID, but simply aren't reliable to say you DON'T have COVID, which is unfortunately how people are using them. 

The false sense of security is a big problem, I had this concern with vaccination, and now it's repeating with home based testing.


----------



## sags

It looks like Omicron will burn hot and fast through the population, and has shoved Delta to the side, but that doesn't mean the Delta virus is permanently gone.

It could hibernate or mutate and return, or another variant could emerge from somewhere in the world.

There still doesn't appear to be much of push for global vaccination. Much of the world's population remains unvaccinated.

I would hope that governments don't conclude it is all over and fail to prepare for any eventuality.

Any respite from the immediate threat should be used to stock up on PPE and other necessities.

We need to continue funding research while we hope for the best but prepare for the worst.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> The thing spreads across corridors in quarantine hotels. From fully vaccinated to fully vaccinated.* How do you stop that?*


 ... for the Covid genius on this forum, I'm shocked to see you're asking that question. 

Especially when the answer was repeated in front of you (and not just you not seeing it btw) within James4Beach's posts #55, 57 and 59.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> It looks like Omicron will burn hot and fast through the population, and has shoved Delta to the side, but that doesn't mean the Delta virus is permanently gone.
> 
> It could hibernate or mutate and return, or another variant could emerge from somewhere in the world.
> 
> There still doesn't appear to be much of push for global vaccination. Much of the world's population remains unvaccinated.
> 
> I would hope that governments don't conclude it is all over and fail to prepare for any eventuality.
> 
> Any respite from the immediate threat should be used to stock up on PPE and other necessities.
> 
> We need to continue funding research while we hope for the best but prepare for the worst.


 ... Hunger Games coming to life or this world.


----------



## kcowan2000

Yes there was a quote from the US media that home tests were only 50% accurate at detecting positive cases. That leads to horrible conclusions that lead to more spreading by the false negatives. Whose idea was this?


----------



## Beaver101

^ For sure on this "forum", damian13ster was a believer in "testings" to stop the spread. Particularly those unbelieveably cheap $8 rapid tests he can get from his employer whilst working at home. LMAO.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> I provided a direct quote from Fauci and you call it BS spin.


 ... re-read my response ... "to suit YOUR BS spin.". 

It's appears you either don't understand that meaning of that phrase or got your eyes-blinded by that early morning Floridian sun. 

Is it actually that boring down there such that you have to keep busy by being on this forum? LMAO.


----------



## MrMatt

kcowan2000 said:


> Yes there was a quote from the US media that home tests were only 50% accurate at detecting positive cases. That leads to horrible conclusions that lead to more spreading by the false negatives. Whose idea was this?


The "experts". 

The same ones that say "get vaxxed and you don't need to wear a mask"


----------



## bgc_fan

kcowan2000 said:


> Yes there was a quote from the US media that home tests were only 50% accurate at detecting positive cases. That leads to horrible conclusions that lead to more spreading by the false negatives. Whose idea was this?


Quite frankly, those rapid tests are good for confirming that you are positive for covid, but if it comes up negative, it really means "I don't know, maybe?". And I guess if you like testing every day since there can be a lag between infection and showing up positive on those.
And they really come up positive if you are already symptomatic, which is why given the spread of Omicron, if you are exhibiting symptoms, there's a pretty good chance you have covid.


----------



## sags

How much money are they spending on those instant tests which could be spent on something more productive ?

We still wear our masks, although it may only be making us feel better. My wife always wears a face shield when working and shopping, but I don't know if that works either.

Our grandson went to his in-law grandparents for New Years Eve and of course the whole family went out to a pub. Now he is sick and they are thinking he might have covid. Well.......they all might have covid.

So now he can't come here or back to our son's place because they have 3 kids and she works in daycare tomorrow. So his mom will have to take off work.

You gotta wonder about some people's priorities. I mean.......they can't claim they didn't know the risk level.


----------



## HappilyRetired

MrMatt said:


> The "experts".
> 
> The same ones that say "get vaxxed and you don't need to wear a mask"


None of the experts will be held accountable for being wrong, even those who knowingly lied or deliberately misled us. We can't even question those so-called experts now without risking being banned from social media or facing bitterness and anger from those who hang on their very word as gospel.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... re-read my response ... "to suit YOUR BS spin.".
> 
> It's appears you either don't understand that meaning of that phrase or got your eyes-blinded by that early morning Floridian sun.
> 
> Is it actually that boring down there such that you have to keep busy by being on this forum? LMAO.


It sounds like you're angry that we decided to live our lives as we see fit rather than cower in fear.

Fauci is a blatant liar who is still allowed to make decisions that affect an entire country. Trudeau is an arrogant fool who just said that people who don't get the shot are often racist and misogynistic. That group of people includes non-white and women but facts were never Trudeau's strong suit.

We having a great time in Florida. And if I feel like commenting every now and then I will. You can hide in your basement for the rest of your life...those of us out and about enjoying life welcome the reprieve from those who are afraid. 🍺🍷


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> The "experts".
> 
> The same ones that say "get vaxxed and you don't need to wear a mask"


 ... at least they aren't the ones who are contributing to the spread as if anti-vaxxers also enjoys wearing masks. LMAO.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> It sounds like you're angry that we decided to live our lives as we see fit rather than cower in fear.
> 
> Fauci is a blatant liar who is still allowed to make decisions that affect an entire country. Trudeau is an arrogant fool who just said that people who don't get the shot are often racist and misogynistic. That group of people includes non-white and women but facts were never Trudeau's strong suit.
> 
> We having a great time in Florida. And if I feel like commenting every now and then I will. You can hide in your basement for the rest of your life...those of us out and about enjoying life welcome the reprieve from those who are afraid. 🍺🍷


 ... like I said before, enjoy your time there. 

Better yet, denounce being Canadian and you can avoid our fool PM along with your America First stance where you're then get stucked with Fauci. And don't forget to visit Mr. Dump in Florida whilst there. And don't bother coming back with your cooties. LMAO.


----------



## Beaver101

bgc_fan said:


> Quite frankly, those rapid tests are good for confirming that you are positive for covid, but if it comes up negative, it really means "I don't know, maybe?". And I guess if you like testing every day since there can be a lag between infection and showing up positive on those.
> And they really come up positive if you are already symptomatic, which is why given the spread of Omicron, if you are exhibiting symptoms, there's a pretty good chance you have covid.


 .. those rapid tests are as good useless as you still have to PCR test. And if you're PCR postive, then what? Like some people are actually going to isolate ... right to Florida with their ever kindness to "share". No wonder the spread is wide and far with no end in sight even for an epidemic, let alone a pandemic.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> None of the experts will be held accountable for being wrong, even those who knowingly lied or deliberately misled us. We can't even question those so-called experts now without risking being banned from social media or facing bitterness and anger from those who hang on their very word as gospel.


 ... as if the experts own your life. And why are you still on this forum HappilyRetired trolling?


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> How much money are they spending on those instant tests which could be spent on something more productive ?
> 
> We still wear our masks, although it may only be making us feel better. My wife always wears a face shield when working and shopping, but I don't know if that works either.
> 
> Our grandson went to his in-law grandparents for New Years Eve and of course the whole family went out to a pub. Now he is sick and they are thinking he might have covid. Well.......they all might have covid.
> 
> So now he can't come here or back to our son's place because they have 3 kids and she works in daycare tomorrow. So his mom will have to take off work.
> 
> *You gotta wonder about some people's priorities. I mean.......they can't claim they didn't know the risk level.*


 ... that's now called facing the consequences of your own "choice/decision/priority". Hopefully, those consequences are not life-threatening.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... like I said before, enjoy your time there. Better yet, denounce being Canadian and you can avoid our fool PM along your America First stance where you're then get stucked with Fauci. And don't forget to vist Mr. Dump in Florida nor bother coming back with your cooties. LMAO.


We'll definitely enjoy our time here, that's exactly why we came.

I actually prefer Canada over Florida but it doesn't average +22C anywhere in Canada in January. We worked hard all our lives so that we can do whatever we want during retirement. And we will. If it upsets you, well that's just an added bonus. 🍺


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> We'll definitely enjoy our time here, that's exactly why we came.
> 
> I actually prefer Canada over Florida but it doesn't average +22C anywhere in Canada in January. We worked hard all our lives so that we can do whatever we want during retirement. And we will. If it upsets you, well that's just an added bonus. 🍺


 ... you can do whatever you want. I told you to enjoy your time there, twice now.

But then you were the one going off on a tangent "ranting" about our fool arrogant PM and labelling Fauci as a liar. So who's really angry to start of with? And now you're accusing me of being "upset" and "angry" because I responded in kind?

Seriously, I'm sure you got better things to do in Florida than "trolling" on CMF with your blatant and false accusations aka going on the offensive each time and every day here. Hate to say this - doesn't sound all "happilyretired" to me. 

OTOH maybe it is - happiness in retirement is to be trolling on CMF 'cause one got nothing else better to do.


----------



## Beaver101

Ban on indoor dining, further capacity limits for retail being considered in Ford cabinet meeting: sources

Kind of late to put this plan in place - even with Ford working on a Sunday. A plan that works like death cut by a thousand pieces.

I think Ontarians better start praying its health systems doesn't collapse in the upcoming days. Ms. Elliott - where are you?


----------



## zinfit

Just saw a interview with Dr Micheal Warner the Director of Critical for a Toronto Hospital. He doesn't paint a nice picture. He said in a matter of a couple days ICUs went from 13 to 33. He is certain that with current trends critical care may not be available to everyone that needs it. He also made an extoardinary comment. He said he has not seen one fully vacinated person admitted to his ICU over the past year. He should apologize for making such as statement as his firsthand experience is nothing without a major study including peer review. He flat out said that with rare exception fully vaccinated people are not people being admitted to his hospital Once we are past the holidays and public heath people start releasing data on hospitalizations, ICU and deaths related to covid we will start getting the real picture of problems we are facing.


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> Ban on indoor dining, further capacity limits for retail being considered in Ford cabinet meeting: sources
> 
> Kind of late to put this plan in place - even with Ford working on a Sunday. A plan that works like death cut by a thousand pieces.
> 
> I think Ontarians better start praying its health systems doesn't collapse in the upcoming days. Ms. Elliott - where are you?


Are you endorsing the Quebec policies announced by Legault and should Ford be doing the same.


----------



## sags

Like I have posted often........listen to the doctors.

Not a single admission of a fully vaccinated patient to a big Toronto hospital tells me all I need to know and gives me some comfort.


----------



## sags

I think the Ford government has become unable to cope with the virus. They are sending mixed messages out almost daily.

It might not be a bad idea for Ford to call Legault and ask him what to do.


----------



## james4beach

kcowan2000 said:


> Yes there was a quote from the US media that home tests were only 50% accurate at detecting positive cases. That leads to horrible conclusions that lead to more spreading by the false negatives. Whose idea was this?


Yeah, I agree with @MrMatt that there's a big problem developing (a false sense of security) using rapid tests at home. That's even assuming people are using them correctly, which is unlikely.

The rapid tests have a good chance of picking up an infection near the *peak infectiousness*, when a person has symptoms. Otherwise the negative result doesn't mean much.

PCR tests, on the other hand, give accurate positive and negative results. But we now have to conserve these tests to be able to screen healthcare and other essential workers.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> PCR tests, on the other hand, give accurate positive and negative results. But we now have to conserve these tests to be able to screen healthcare and other essential workers.


I'm not sure, I know someone who had a close contact before Christmas, they had 3 Negative PCR tests, then their whole family got positive rapidtest results, so it is anecdotal, but maybe the PCR isn't that great either.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> I'm not sure, I know someone who had a close contact before Christmas, they had 3 Negative PCR tests, then their whole family got positive rapidtest results, so it is anecdotal, but maybe the PCR isn't that great either.


Interesting. Maybe it depends on the type of PCR performed (and there are many variations). The method of collection can also make a big difference. When preparing for my trip to the US, I watched several youtube videos of people documenting their drive-through PCR experiences and this is when I realized that many of those tests will be useless, because people (who were swabbing themselves) were doing it incorrectly.

Aside: MrMatt you have consistently had some of the most sensible observations and intuitions during this pandemic.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> Are you endorsing the Quebec policies announced by Legault and should Ford be doing the same.


 ... I'm not endorsing Quebec policies for Ontario when we got our own premier named Doug Ford who was previously advised (by his own medical people) from "at least 2 weeks ago" aka pre Christmas that a "circuit breaker" was required. And what does he come up with ... a gradual step-down capacity limit like from 50 to 25 to 10 to... absolutely painful ... give me an eff-break as the "circuit breaker" plan. 

I guess we (Ontarians) can just hope and pray now that you posted that interview with Dr. M. Warner (of which I wasn't even aware of). I listen to Dr. I. Bogoch from the TGH primarily. But understand both docs are on the same wave length with respect to the Covid situation here at Toronto's hospitals.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> I think the Ford government has become unable to cope with the virus. They are sending mixed messages out almost daily.
> 
> It might not be a bad idea for Ford to call Legault and ask him what to do.


 .. and a repeat: I seriously wonder about the expertise of our province's top medical officer. Is he a medical doctor or a political doctor? Seems more like the latter.


----------



## Beaver101

Before I had the chance to respond to the above, this pops up: 

Ont. hospitals facing staffing challenges as COVID-19 cases continue to mount



> _Published Sunday, January 2, 2022 2:54PM EST
> TORONTO - Ontario hospitals are feeling the brunt of soaring COVID-19 case counts as the virus rips through the province at record speed and infects high numbers of patients and health care workers.
> 
> *The situation has become so serious that some hospital networks are reporting hundreds of their staff members have tested positive for the virus, are symptomatic or are in isolation after an exposure.*
> 
> Kevin Smith, the president and chief executive officer of Toronto's University Health Network, says those factors combined have resulted in at least a hundred staff absences per day as the highly transmissible Omicron variant drives case counts to unprecedented highs across the province.
> 
> “There aren't health care workers growing on trees, so it's a very, very limited supply and they're in hot demand everywhere,” Smith said in a telephone interview.
> 
> The number of staff unable to work at UHN's five facilities in recent weeks, including Toronto General, Toronto Western and Princess Margaret Hospitals, is higher than what the facilities experienced in previous waves of the virus.
> 
> The high number of unavailable staff comes as Smith has noticed fewer people entering hospital critically ill from the virus. This despite the fact that Public Health Ontario reported 16,714 new infections on Sunday and a record 18,445 cases Saturday, noting both figures are considered underestimates.
> 
> The number of active cases in the province has now crossed the 100,000 mark. ...
> ...
> While Smith said staff are managing the current volumes well, he frets about the situation changing.
> 
> “I'm obviously worried that as we get people engaged in larger and larger amounts of social interaction, including in schools and other environments, there is risk of additional and significant spread,” he said.
> 
> “Our hope is that populations like those wouldn't require hospitalization, _*but we have to be prepared for the fact that they will because in other countries, we're seeing kids admissions going up.”*
> ...


 ... how about sending some sick Covid patients over to Alberta/Saskatchewan/Manitoba for a change?


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> It's important to note that the home kits (rapid antigen) have a horrible false negative rate, assuming they're even done correctly.
> 
> They're ok at saying you have COVID, but simply aren't reliable to say you DON'T have COVID, which is unfortunately how people are using them.
> 
> The false sense of security is a big problem, I had this concern with vaccination, and now it's repeating with home based testing.


That really depends for what purpose they are used.

If a person who would go to a gathering if rapid test wasn't possible, now decides to take one, there is x% of decrease in transmission with test having x% accuracy.
If a person wouldn't go to a gathering if rapid tests weren't available, but will go now seeing negative result, there is (1-x) increase in transmission with test having x% accuracy.

Which group among the two is bigger? No clue


----------



## Money172375

Premier Ford introducing new restrictions at 10, or is 11. Wouldn’t be surprised to have it move again. Govt just made changes late last week….now more.

I didn’t mind their performance earlier on, but these guys seems to be losing their grip. Constant changes. Seem to be reacting to polling. Twitter is roasting their decisions on schools. Let’s see if their mantra of “schools will be the last to close” holds true.


----------



## damian13ster

Just one Scottish Omicron patient required intensive care treatment


Scottish Government figures have revealed that only one Omicron patient in Scotland was treated in intensive care since the variant arrived north of the border.




www.edinburghlive.co.uk





Scotland:
Total amount in ICU with Omicron: *One*
Total amount admitted to Hospitals: 91

And they estimate they had a million people infected at this outbreak.
Omicron became a dominant strain on December 17, had 90% prevalence December 31


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Premier Ford introducing new restrictions at 10, or is 11. Wouldn’t be surprised to have it move again. Govt just made changes late last week….now more.
> 
> I didn’t mind their performance earlier on, but these guys seems to be losing their grip. Constant changes. Seem to be reacting to polling. Twitter is roasting their decisions on schools. Let’s see if their mantra of “schools will be the last to close” holds true.


 ...at 11 am. But we can get some hints here on what they are which are still insufficient IMO:

Ban on indoor dining, further capacity limits for retail being considered in Ford cabinet meeting: sources

This kind of flippy-floppy from "father/grandpa" Ford will definitely be on top of my mind comes the provincial election, provided we're still able to hold one.

Re the decision on the "schools", why is Lecce still on the payroll? Doing what exactly these days?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Ukraine has like 30% of fully vaccinated people and Canada has almost 80%
Check out this video. how many people are wearing masks? 




Covid, no covid. Ukrainians simply enjoy their life. Meanwhile in Canada, sky is falling, curfews, closing gyms etc.
*Ontario moves school online, closes indoor dining and gyms as part of sweeping new COVID-19 measures


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ford-public-health-measures-jan-3-1.6302531


*


----------



## Beaver101

^ Are you living in Ukraine and/or Toronto? And so?

Don't forget that I'm on your ignore list ...


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ...at 11 am. But we can get some hints here on what they are which are still insufficient IMO:
> 
> Ban on indoor dining, further capacity limits for retail being considered in Ford cabinet meeting: sources
> 
> This kind of flippy-floppy from "father/grandpa" Ford will definitely be on top of my mind comes the provincial election, provided we're still able to hold one.
> 
> Re the decision on the "schools", why is Lecce still on the payroll? Doing what exactly these days?


Ford and Lecce don’t get along or see eye-to-eye, but Ford won’t fire him with all that’s going on. Lecce probably wanted schools to remain open.


----------



## sags

Too late for restrictions to stop the tsunami now. Once again, Ford continues to make the same mistakes in delaying restrictions until after a holiday.


----------



## sags

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Are you living in Ukraine and/or Toronto? And so?
> 
> Don't forget that I'm on your ignore list ...


Ukraine had a disaster in hospitals during the first waves. Apparently, they didn't learn anything from them.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Money172375 said:


> Ford and Lecce don’t get along or see eye-to-eye, but Ford won’t fire him with all that’s going on. Lecce probably wanted schools to remain open.


What is interesting that vaccines were sold to public as the way to get out of this mess during the summer.


----------



## damian13ster

What is crazy is that they are still being sold as the way to get out of this mess, even though it is already evident they are not. Not even boosters. Those last for about 10 weeks. Israel is up to 4th shot, Denmark came out and ordered 6 shots for everyone, with expectation of applying the sixth in early 2023


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Ford and Lecce don’t get along or see eye-to-eye, but Ford won’t fire him with all that’s going on. Lecce probably wanted schools to remain open.


 ... man, Ontarians are paying dearly for a dummy acting like a puppet.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> What is crazy is that they are still being sold as the way to get out of this mess, even though it is already evident they are not. Not even boosters. Those last for about 10 weeks. Israel is up to 4th shot, Denmark came out and ordered 6 shots for everyone, with expectation of applying the sixth in early 2023


 ...so how's your rapid testings theory to getting out of this mess coming along?


----------



## sags

Beaver101 said:


> ...so how's your rapid testings theory to getting out of this mess coming along?


He doesn't want to talk about that anymore.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> What is interesting that vaccines were sold to public as the way to get out of this mess during the summer.


They were lying. 

The experts said a vaccine likely won't be enough back in May-Jul 2020, go look at my posts.
- I'm referring to real experts in virology, not politically compromised appointees.

The concern was the number of variants that Coronaviruses spits out, it just mutates too fast. 
Here we are, the number of variants is too high, the vaccine we have doesn't really fit Omicron.

We got darn lucky that the initial vaccine seemed to cover Delta and previous variants so well.


----------



## damian13ster

Yep, pretty much the same as flu vaccine. Hit or miss.
And this year they missed completely, which will add to the problem. They made vaccine for completely different strain than the one circulating now.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Yep, pretty much the same as flu vaccine. Hit or miss.
> And this year they missed completely, which will add to the problem. They made vaccine for completely different strain than the one circulating now.


Not really, it was always a slim chance that COVID would be mutate slowly.
Flu normally doesn't mutate as quickly.

Many experts doubted an effective vaccine would be created, and nobody competent thought that a vaccine alone would end this. The most troubling part is that those in power felt it was okay to lie to the people.


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> Ukraine has like 30% of fully vaccinated people and Canada has almost 80%
> Check out this video. how many people are wearing masks?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid, no covid. Ukrainians simply enjoy their life. Meanwhile in Canada, sky is falling, curfews, closing gyms etc.
> *Ontario moves school online, closes indoor dining and gyms as part of sweeping new COVID-19 measures
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ford-public-health-measures-jan-3-1.6302531
> 
> 
> *


Ukraine has had 31 deaths per million in the past 7 days. Canada has had 6 deaths per million over the past 7 days. This is despite Canada's case rate per million being 6813 vs Ukraine's 679. 

So we have almost 10x as many cases per capita but only 1/5 the deaths per capita. Thanks to vaccinations. 

I see Ukraine reported their first Omicron case on Dec 19. Canada reported theirs on November 28. 

So Ukraine is about 3 weeks behind us. Soon they will be feeling the pandemic also.


----------



## bgc_fan

Looks like people need a quick lesson in immunology 102. 
The presence of antibodies isn't the end-all be all in vaccine effectiveness, because over time this will decrease as a function of lack of antigen (virus) presence. The key is that the B and T cells remember the virus even after antibodies don't develop as quickly. That's why even with the reduced antibody levels, we still have a reduced death/ICU rate compared to those who are unvaccinated. It just takes time which is why you have breakthroughs happening, as omicron is replicating faster than the immune system can react. However, once it reacts, the virus can be attacked and that's why we get faster clearance rates, which leads to people becoming less infectious quicker, when vaccinated rather than unvaccinated. Which is pretty much why anecdotally, you'll hear that most vaccinated people don't get as major symptoms as unvaccinated.

And FYI, the current booster shots are just the same formulation as the original shots, although they are half dosage for Moderna as the initial shots was pretty high. They aren't modified for Omicron although Pfizer and Moderna are planning on doing that for future. All the booster shots do is remind the immune system: "Remember me? I'm a bad guy" so the body starts producing antibodies.

That's not to say that boosters won't help, it's to say that those who have 2 shots aren't completely unprotected. And to imply that the original vaccination protocol of 2 shots was worthless because we need boosters is just ignorant to say the least. And before you say, "what about so-and-so", everyone's immune system is different so they will react differently.


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> Looks like people need a quick lesson in immunology 102.


yeah... but

In this case the vaccine seems to have very weak protection against the current Omicron strain, unless a dose was received recently.
The really good part is that Omicron provides good protection against Delta. It is looking like this is the "weaker faster spreading strain" I expected would "end" the pandemic.

With many people in hospitals in oxygen, it's a bit too dangerous IMO, but at least they're not filling ICU's.


----------



## damian13ster

France and Italy with their insanely strict restrictions, covid passports, mandates.......
UK who decided not to introduce any further measures seeing how harmless Omicron is


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> Ukraine has had 31 deaths per million in the past 7 days. Canada has had 6 deaths per million over the past 7 days. This is despite Canada's case rate per million being 6813 vs Ukraine's 679.


In Ukraine people live and enjoy their life.
in Canada people are living in constant fears, with never ending restrictions and curfews.


----------



## cainvest

bgc_fan said:


> Looks like people need a quick lesson in immunology 102.


Whaaaaat ... but the University of Social Media has produced many thousands of expert virologists, immunologists and statisticians all in record time, just when we needed them.


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> yeah... but
> 
> In this case the vaccine seems to have very weak protection against the current Omicron strain, unless a dose was received recently.
> The really good part is that Omicron provides good protection against Delta. It is looking like this is the "weaker faster spreading strain" I expected would "end" the pandemic.
> 
> With many people in hospitals in oxygen, it's a bit too dangerous IMO, but at least they're not filling ICU's.


You have to define protection to what. Weak protection to break through infection? Yeah, infection rates are probably similar to unvaccinated. Weak protection to ICU and death? Not at all. 

For example, from the UK: https://assets.publishing.service.g...efing-31-Dec-2021-Omicron_severity_update.pdf











2 doses still provide 52% effectiveness against hospitalization after 25 weeks. You also have to consider that the UK primarily used AZ which can mean a difference than what we may experience; however, the point is still there that there is protection against hospitalization, and people aren't completely unprotected.


----------



## bgc_fan

cainvest said:


> Whaaaaat ... but the University of Social Media has produced many thousands of expert virologists, immunologists and statisticians all in record time, just when we needed them.


I'm not sure if you are just being sarcastic at me, but I'm not going to bother stating my background because anyone can state anything on the Internet.


----------



## damian13ster

The symptomatic disease test negative case control analysis included 169,888 Delta cases and 204,036 Omicron cases. Vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic disease by period after dose 2 and dose 3 is shown in Figure 2 for those who received a primary course of the AstraZeneca vaccine (Figure 2a), Pfizer (Figure 2b) or Moderna (Figure 2c). Effectiveness of booster doses of Pfizer and Moderna are shown for AstraZeneca and Pfizer primary courses. In all periods, effectiveness was lower for Omicron compared to Delta. Among those who had received 2 doses of AstraZeneca, there was no effect against Omicron from 20 weeks after the second dose. Among those who had received 2 doses of Pfizer or Moderna effectiveness dropped from around 65 to 70% down to around 10% by 20 weeks after the second dose. *2 to 4 weeks after a booster dose vaccine effectiveness ranged from around 65 to 75%, dropping to 55 to 70% at 5 to 9 weeks and 40 to 50% from 10+ weeks after the booster.*

Great, 4th one coming within 3 months as well


----------



## cainvest

bgc_fan said:


> I'm not sure if you are just being sarcastic at me, but I'm not going to bother stating my background because anyone can state anything on the Internet.


My comment was totally sarcastic and not directed at you. I agree with you that the vast majority need a better understanding of things.


----------



## bgc_fan

cainvest said:


> My comment was totally sarcastic and not directed at you. I agree with you that the vast majority need a better understanding of things.


Fair enough, the problem with internet forums is that it's hard to gauge.

Like I said, anyone can say anything on the Internet, so claiming my background is pointless. 

Warning: Rant
This particular subject is one that really touches a nerve with me when I see people who have obviously no or limited science background try to interpret scientific information and proclaim their expertise. And it's usually wrong or they completely misunderstand what is being presented, which is evident when you start pointing out certain things. Or their "research" is just youtube videos or Facebook memes.
It's doubly annoying considering that many of the people here look down on higher education including STEM, but when something like covid comes out, they think that all they need are a few hours on the internet to understand what is going on, when they don't even understand basic scientific principles. Basically, we have people studying for years (even just to get an undergrad degree), vs people looking at Facebook memes, and somehow the people looking at Facebook memes are viewed as the experts.


----------



## Jamesdean

sags said:


> Do you guys not get the news ?
> 
> Hospitals in the US are at maximum capacity. From city after city, doctors and nurses are describing the situation in their hospitals.
> 
> Ambulances are being turned away with accident victims, gunshot wounds, heart attacks because there are no beds for them.
> 
> Children are being affected by Omicron, and doctors are seeing covid caused croup and pneumonia at a rising rate.
> 
> Kids are 10 times more likely to be hospitalized if not vaccinated. Children under the age of 5 are most seriously affected.
> 
> In Ontario, the government will no longer test for covid in schools. Other Provinces are edging closer to a disaster situation.
> 
> It appears the Ford government doesn't want parents to know the numbers. If I had kids in school.......they wouldn't be going.


Source please? Making statements like this must be substantiated.


----------



## bgc_fan

Previous rant over, and back to lighter news. Don't know why Florida governor is asking for more monoclonal antibody treatments if everything is going so well:








Florida governor calls on feds for more COVID antibody doses


Gov. Ron DeSantis called on the federal government Monday to allow states to directly purchase monoclonal antibody treatments from companies, saying the state is ready to open new monoclonal antibody treatment sites but is waiting on treatments.




www.clickorlando.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude

bgc_fan said:


> people studying for years (even just to get an undergrad degree)


No one is questioning this. My point is that when vaccines came out, and Pfizer said 95% effective, Pfizer new it’s gonna change, they new viruses do mutate to avoid immunity. But it wasn’t, still isn’t widely told. People getting vaccinated should have been informed about this. Please get your second shot but be ready for another one in three months, be ready to continue wear your mask, be ready for curfews, travel restrictions, PCR tests and school closed. Don’t sugar coat it with 95% efficient. Tell the whole story.


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> No one is questioning this. My point is that when vaccines came out, and Pfizer said 95% effective, Pfizer new it’s gonna change, they new viruses do mutate to avoid immunity. But it wasn’t, still isn’t widely told. People getting vaccinated should have been informed about this. Please get your second shot but be ready for another one in three months, be ready to continue wear your mask, be ready for curfews, travel restrictions, PCR tests and school closed. Don’t sugar coat it with 95% efficient. Tell the whole story.


And things change. That's the issue with science. These arguments that Pfizer is being dishonest and lying about 95% effective is just stupid. Basically, people making this type of argument are saying that Pfizer should have had a time machine back then, fast forward to 2 years and see what variant would look like and then develop the vaccine based on that. At the time, there was still not that much research done considering that covid was still new and not well characterized. At the time, it looked like it wouldn't mutate that quickly, or that the mutations would not greatly affect how the immune system would recognize the virus. 

It's the same thing with herd immunity. That calculation is based on the replication number of the original virus. For example, to calculate herd immunity you have the formula:








The trick is that the R0 value changes depending on any social distancing/public measures used to slow it down. But let's just take some values from Ontario, R0 for delta is 1.04, R0 for omicron is 4.01. Let's assume the same vaccine effectiveness rate just to make things easier for comparison at 90%. To reach herd immunity against delta, you'd need 4%, vs 83.4% against omicron. Before you get your head wrapped around the idea we only need 4% against delta, R0 is a living number that depends a lot on how transmittable the variant is. With a high percentage of people already vaccinated that reduces transmission rate, on top of public measures.

If you want to look at using R0 for unvaccinated population you can use these R0 values: R0 original 2.5, R0 Delta 6.5, which gives you 66.6% and 94%. And right now, we're at 77% fully vaccinated, though other places may have different numbers. So yeah, we're not near herd immunity based on the current variant.


----------



## sags

The doctors and nurses who treat those patients in ERs and ICUs are proven right once again and always have been at each successive wave.

If governments had listened to them, we could have avoided a lot of the tragedy. Our governments make decisions weeks after they should have.


----------



## MrMatt

MrMatt said:


> In this case the vaccine seems to have very weak protection against the current Omicron strain, unless a dose was received recently.





bgc_fan said:


> You have to define protection to what. Weak protection to break through infection? Yeah, infection rates are probably similar to unvaccinated. Weak protection to ICU and death? Not at all.


I meant weak protection as significantly less than the protection against other variants.

From your snippet










Which is also backed up in the table. FYI an odds ratio of 1 means "no difference". 0.98 means "almost no difference", which means that after 4 months the vaccine has no effect.









Similarly the HR against hospitalization has very wide confidence bands, and suggests that after 6 months the protection against hospitalization offered by the vaccines is much, by could be slightly better, or much worse.

FYI, the conceptualization of "Odds Ratio" isn't very intuitive. 
I really don't think it should be used in papers intended for application. Mathematically it's great, but from the application side for "end users" (ie physicians & policymakers) it's "confusing"


Here is a nice layman accessible description of some recent studies. Really simple summary "maybe Omicron is the strain that ends the pandemic"


----------



## sags

Maybe the Delta variant will disappear, or maybe it will mutate, or maybe it will go into hibernation only to reappear.

Maybe doesn't count for much. Nobody can say what will happen.


----------



## HappilyRetired

bgc_fan said:


> Previous rant over, and back to lighter news. Don't know why Florida governor is asking for more monoclonal antibody treatments if everything is going so well


Probably because he wants to keep things going well.

Some people think that because he's against lockdowns that he's not doing anything to help people. That's just another media lie.


----------



## Money172375




----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> In this case the vaccine seems to have very weak protection against the current Omicron strain, unless a dose was received recently.


The immune system has several layers of protection. The first level defense -- antibodies which can stop the thing before it causes an infection -- are indeed weak against omicron. This is what we originally hoped for, preventing symptomatic illness.

However it appears the other layers of immune system protection are intact. These come from different kind of immune system cells which come out to fight the virus. The infection still occurs, there are symptoms, but it's less serious and less deadly. The vaccines do appear to do their jobs.

@MrMatt don't get too hung up on symptomatic disease. That is the antibody response (first level protection) but it's a lost cause. What is far more important is the multi layered immune response (memory B cells, and T cells), even if someone has symptomatic disease.









T-cell immune response is still high against Omicron despite its many mutations, study says


A new study from researchers in Hong Kong and Australia is suggesting that T-cells — a less discussed aspect of the body's immune response — are equipped to tackle Omicron, despite the variant's many mutations.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> I meant weak protection as significantly less than the protection against other variants.
> 
> From your snippet
> View attachment 22593
> 
> 
> 
> Which is also backed up in the table. FYI an odds ratio of 1 means "no difference". 0.98 means "almost no difference", which means that after 4 months the vaccine has no effect.
> View attachment 22594
> 
> 
> Similarly the HR against hospitalization has very wide confidence bands, and suggests that after 6 months the protection against hospitalization offered by the vaccines is much, by could be slightly better, or much worse.
> 
> FYI, the conceptualization of "Odds Ratio" isn't very intuitive.
> I really don't think it should be used in papers intended for application. Mathematically it's great, but from the application side for "end users" (ie physicians & policymakers) it's "confusing"
> 
> 
> Here is a nice layman accessible description of some recent studies. Really simple summary "maybe Omicron is the strain that ends the pandemic"


Like I said, if your definition of effectiveness is about infections, which is what that snippet is about, then yes, it isn't as effective. If we're talking about hospitalizations and death, then 2 doses is still helpful as I had pointed out.


----------



## bgc_fan

HappilyRetired said:


> Probably because he wants to keep things going well.
> 
> Some people think that because he's against lockdowns that he's not doing anything to help people. That's just another media lie.


If things were going well, he wouldn't need the increase in treatment capacity.


----------



## HappilyRetired

bgc_fan said:


> If things were going well, he wouldn't need the increase in treatment capacity.


So if things are going well he shouldn't try to make them even better?

What kind of warped thinking is that?


----------



## bgc_fan

HappilyRetired said:


> So if things are going well he shouldn't try to make them even better?
> 
> What kind of warped thinking is that?


No I'm pointing out that things aren't going well, which you can't seem to understand.

It's like there's a fire in the neighbourhood and there's one fire truck. We watch as the fire gets bigger and bigger, but the fire chief keeps saying, it's all good, nothing to see. In the background, he starts asking other departments for more help. Hint: he's not asking for help because things are going fine.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

In UofS vaccination rates are 99% only fully vaccinated people are allowed. But they are still switching back to online learning. Why is that? People are not happy about this.


bgc_fan said:


> If we're talking about hospitalizations and death, then 2 doses is still helpful as I had pointed out.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Ukrainiandude said:


> In UofS vaccination rates are 99% only fully vaccinated people are allowed. But they are still switching back to online learning. Why is that? People are not happy about this.


Because the teacher's unions are calling the shots, not doctors or scientists.


----------



## james4beach

Ontario is estimating that 1% of everyone who catches omicron will end up in the hospital.

That's pretty damn serious, since just about everyone is going to catch this.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Ontario is estimating that 1% of everyone who catches omicron will end up in the hospital.


Will they end up in the hospital from omicron or due to something else and just happen to test positive for omicron?


----------



## bgc_fan

Ukrainiandude said:


> In UofS vaccination rates are 99% only fully vaccinated people are allowed. But they are still switching back to online learning. Why is that? People are not happy about this.


I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to respond other than saying that's their decision. It's irrelevant to me if you're trying to discuss whether the vaccine is still protective and you want to copy a bunch of facebook comments.


----------



## damian13ster

Again, people are overlooking simple, real-life data. You can argue on anti-bodies (which were used as a threshold to sell more vaccines) or T-cells (which weren't used to stop dosing every 3 months but are used now that antibodies show vaccines are largely useless against Omicron). You can argue on herd immunity by natural protection or vaccination.
All of those are based on assumption because you simply don't know those values.

Here are the values that are actually known:

In Scotland,
Over 500,000 omicron cases resulted in
1 icu visit
91 hospital visits.

You have significantly higher chances of getting hospitalized with myocarditis due to mrna vaccine (NHS data from 50,000,000 doses posted here couple days ago) than you are to be hospitalized with omicron. This is real-life data.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> @MrMatt don't get too hung up on symptomatic disease.


I'm not, I'm concerned up on spread.

I think symptomatic disease is a better proxy for viral shedding/spread than hospitalization.


Right now most estimates are Ontario has 1-3% with symptomatic COVID, it's very possible that we could have a few million active cases by mid-month, at which point we will overload out hospitals.
With most Ontarians >24weeks out, the vaccine HR is only 0.5, which is going to keep a lot out of hospitals, but that might not be enough once we get 2M+ cases

If we had vaccinated everyone in Oct/Nov, the lower OR for symptomatic might have helped reduce spread and maybe we wouldn't hit 1M cases. But that's off the table.

Fortunately it seems most hospitalizations only need supplemental oxygen (not ventilators). Assuming we don't get a shortage (like they did in India) it might be okay.


----------



## MrMatt

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-health-care-staff-shortages-omicron-1.6302969



"Over the next few weeks, all sectors are likely to see about 20 to 30 per cent of workers calling in sick, Moore said. "

That's the concern.
That level of people out will dramatically cut the ability of everything to function.
The hospitals won't have capacity.

Also that's why they're doing home school, they don't expect the teachers to show up to work, they'll be sick.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> No one is questioning this. My point is that when vaccines came out, and Pfizer said 95% effective, Pfizer new it’s gonna change, they new viruses do mutate to avoid immunity. But it wasn’t, still isn’t widely told. People getting vaccinated should have been informed about this. Please get your second shot but be ready for another one in three months, be ready to continue wear your mask, be ready for curfews, travel restrictions, PCR tests and school closed. Don’t sugar coat it with 95% efficient. Tell the whole story.


 ... this is the kind of post that offers nada, nothing, nil, zero, zilch, zero, zippo and goose eggs as a solution. Instead, blame everyone else except thyself for the problem that they're part of on this planet. 

Remember: I'm still on your ignore list!


----------



## Beaver101

bgc_fan said:


> I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to respond other than saying that's their decision. It's irrelevant to me if you're trying to discuss whether the vaccine is still protective and you want to copy a bunch of facebook comments.


 ... or is the Twitter-chainlink garbage? Like the saying goes consume garbage-in, spits garbage-out and we know who's a pro with that based on his posts.


----------



## damian13ster

Exactly. The problem is not number of people going to hospital. That is barely increasing (evident wherever incidental covid cases are broken down). The issue are isolation rules. 
Glad those are being changed from 10 to 5 or even to 0 in some cases. Just one more step to change it to 0 for everyone and this pandemic is officially over - it will be an endemic from there on


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Exactly. The problem is not number of people going to hospital. *That is barely increasing (evident* wherever incidental covid cases are broken down). The issue are isolation rules.


 ... what're you BSing about in the bolded part? The concern is with the rising hospitalization rates that'll be forthcoming in Toronto ... Ford is merely doing a prayer with his latest "capacity limits".



> Glad those are being changed from 10 to 5 or even to 0 in some cases. Just one more step to change it to 0 for everyone and this pandemic is officially over - it will be an endemic from there on


 ... 10 to 5 to zero in some cases ... where? In your backyard at home with the squirrels? Zero means pandemonium here, pandemic or not. And speaking of achieving an endemic, you're still dozing at your terminal.


----------



## sags

The mistake members are making is thinking they can have an intelligent debate with people who change the subject for a bit and then circle back again.

It looks like they are getting close to "it is just a seasonal flu" again.


----------



## damian13ster

The COVID Pass is now valid for 9 months in EU. You have to get a dose every 7 months. Unless you get your shot every 6 months you won't get into a restaurant.
Within a month they changed mandatory vax from 9 months to every 6 months.








EU sets 9-month limit on vaccine passports – DW – 12/21/2021


The new rule — to come into force on February 1 — will be for traveling within the European Union, although the bloc's executive body recommends member states also apply it on a national level.




www.dw.com












COVID-19: Update on the Covid Health Pass in France


The "border pass" consists of the presentation, when boarding a flight to France, of a “proof of health” (complete vaccination series or PCR or antigen test performed less than 72 hours before boarding) in electronic (via the TousAntiCovid application or another foreign electronic proof) or...




ca.ambafrance.org




.








COVID-19 Information


The CDC’s Order requiring proof of vaccination for non-U.S. citizen nonimmigrants to travel to the United States is still in effect. For more information see Requirement for Proof of COVID-19 Vaccination for Air Passengers.




it.usembassy.gov





Meanwhile in France on December 10 they have found yet another variant (University of Marseille). 46 mutations. Supposedly more vaccine resistant than even Omicron. 
So far just 12 cases though so looks less transmissible and most likely won't take hold.


----------



## sags

Vaccinations will come in pill or spray form soon. Some day we will have a vaccine that kills all coronaviruses. Then we will have a national holiday.

Don't worry........we got science on our side.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Exactly. The problem is not number of people going to hospital. That is barely increasing (evident wherever incidental covid cases are broken down). The issue are isolation rules.
> Glad those are being changed from 10 to 5 or even to 0 in some cases. Just one more step to change it to 0 for everyone and this pandemic is officially over - it will be an endemic from there on


Well I think the number of people going into hospital is one concern, widespread callouts is another.

The US had 1M cases, assuming they're missing some case, I think it's safe to assume North America today is getting about 0.3-0.5% of population new cases/day. I think that's a reasonable, possibly lower side estimate.

That's 2-3% maybe 4% of the total population getting sick in a week. If you're sick or isolating for 2 weeks, that's almost 10% of the workforce gone.

If you start assuming spread will ramp up geometrically (as it does with viral spread), I don't think the concerns about 20-30% of staff being out sick at some point are too unrealistic.
At that point it's bare bones services at hospitals and people won't get care, we'll see large staffing issues at many companies. Schools wouldn't be workable. Public transit, emergency services etc, garbage collection, grocery store/supply chain they'll all be running at a very basic level.

This week should let us know what happened over the holidays, I expect it will be "bad".
Next week will let us know if we're really in trouble or not, I think it will be bad, but not as bad as the data from this week would suggest.

Maybe it's nothing, but it might be bad, I'm risk adverse and I'm planning to hunker down and see what happens.
I don't want to slip and fall and need to go to the ER, I don't want any more exposure risk than I currently have.
I'll wait till we're over this wave if I can.


----------



## zinfit

Alberta covid update. 14% Of Albertans are unvaccinated and account for70% of the hospitalizations. Surprise number 2 they have no covid hospitalizations for people with three doses. I guess Alberta Health is a source for fake news and reporting?


----------



## cainvest

zinfit said:


> Alberta covid update. 14% Of Albertans are unvaccinated and account for70% of the hospitalizations. Surprise number 2 they have no covid hospitalizations for people with three doses. I guess Alberta Health is a source for fake news and reporting?


Manitoba numbers are a bit different, 55% in hospital not fully vaxed (less than two doses) and they make up 78% for ICU patients. We do have 3 dose hospital and ICU patients along with some deaths. Hospitalized numbers are trending upwards but ICU and deaths are on a much slower climb thankfully.


----------



## bgc_fan

cainvest said:


> Hospitalized numbers are trending upwards but ICU and deaths are on a much slower climb thankfully.


Hospitalized numbers are going to keep going up, but there's a reason for that. Omicron is pretty pervasive so that the large majority of people are going to have it. The key distinction that isn't being made is whether people are being hospitalized because of covid, or if it is an incidental infection, i.e. someone going in for a broken leg and tests positive for covid. It doesn't mean that it's any easier on the hospital system or treatment, but what it does do is clear up confusion on whether the vaccine doses are effective on keeping people from being hospitalized. Although the ICU numbers are a better indicator of that.


----------



## zinfit

bgc_fan said:


> Hospitalized numbers are going to keep going up, but there's a reason for that. Omicron is pretty pervasive so that the large majority of people are going to have it. The key distinction that isn't being made is whether people are being hospitalized because of covid, or if it is an incidental infection, i.e. someone going in for a broken leg and tests positive for covid. It doesn't mean that it's any easier on the hospital system or treatment, but what it does do is clear up confusion on whether the vaccine doses are effective on keeping people from being hospitalized. Although the ICU numbers are a better indicator of that.


hope you are correct. Higher hospitalizations stable ICUs.


----------



## bgc_fan

zinfit said:


> hope you are correct. Higher hospitalizations stable ICUs.


Hope that's the case, but we'll probably see how things go in the next few weeks. The obvious problem is that even IF omicron is milder, the sheer numbers of infected and small percentage needing ICU space can still add up to big numbers.


----------



## cainvest

bgc_fan said:


> The key distinction that isn't being made is whether people are being hospitalized because of covid, or if it is an incidental infection, i.e. someone going in for a broken leg and tests positive for covid.


I have no idea how they are counting but a typical "broken leg" type of injury (or other injuries like it) wouldn't require them to normally stay in the hospital, only the ER. In other words, cast it (or whatever is needed) and they go home, covid or not. More complicated injuries/illness that transfer from ER to hospital admitting may be counted if they test positive, I don't know.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> Alberta covid update. 14% Of Albertans are unvaccinated and account for70% of the hospitalizations. Surprise number 2 they have no covid hospitalizations for people with three doses. I guess Alberta Health is a source for fake news and reporting?


No, Alberta health source is not fake news.

Your post is fake news though.
21% of Albertans are unvaccinated, not 14%
28% are not fully vaccinated
You are giving numbers for ICUs, not hospitalizations.
For hospitalizations, unvaccinated account for 47%.











And the ICU looks extremely well in Alberta









And for total hospitalizations:










Unfortunately that is still before the incidental COVID vs hospitalized from COVID


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Ukrainians and Americans celebrate new year in Ukraine. Gathering restrictions, what gathering restrictions? Masks, what masks? Curfews, what curfews? 





meanwhile in Canada, Canadians second year in pandemic with almost 80% vaccination rates (vs Ukraine 30%). Well, you all know how Canadians celebrated.


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> Ukrainians and Americans celebrate new year in Ukraine. Gathering restrictions, what gathering restrictions? Masks, what masks? Curfews, what curfews?


How sad. Ukraine has a rate of 2,225 covid deaths per 1M population. Canada's death rate from covid is 796 deaths per 1M population.

That's what ignorance and poor government gets you. Ukraine has suffered *nearly triple* the death rate as Canada.

I wish the people of Ukraine could have had a better situation. To begin, they could start wearing masks and avoiding having large gatherings.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> No, Alberta health source is not fake news.
> 
> Your post is fake news though.
> 21% of Albertans are unvaccinated, not 14%


Not really fake, just needs clarification. 14.7% not fully vaccinated for ages 12+.


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> Not really fake, just needs clarification. 14.7% not fully vaccinated for ages 12+.


Yeah, putting ICU numbers and presenting them as hospitalization number is a massive misrepresentation though


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> To begin, they could start wearing masks and avoiding having large gatherings.


The USA, Italy and the uk had it all, and much more higher vaccination rates. Still the same or higher deaths per million.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Ukrainians and Americans celebrate new year in Ukraine. Gathering restrictions, what gathering restrictions? Masks, what masks? Curfews, what curfews?
> ...
> meanwhile in Canada, Canadians second year in pandemic with almost 80% vaccination rates (vs Ukraine 30%). Well, you all know how Canadians celebrated.


 ... for someone who continuously touts and rejoices on how safe it is to be living in Ukraine these days, it is pretty amazing he would rather live in Canada (in a basement somewhere). Why is it that?

Remember I'm still on your ignore list!


----------



## Beaver101

People with Omicron don't gasp for air as much as with other variants, but are getting 'really sick in a different way,' an ER doctor says

Still bed hoggers and spreaders in hospitals which could have been prevented.


----------



## sags

Forget about masks. We need protection we pull over our head like a bee keepers helmet.


----------



## sags

My wife says the N95 "one size fit all" masks being sold in retailers and Amazon don't protect very well.

For her N95 masks, a technician fits the different masks by putting a specific headgear over the head for testing the fit of the mask.

They spray a chemical into the bubble and if you smell it......the mask doesn't fit properly. Every employee will need a different sized and shaped N95 mask.

The masks can be oval shaped, wider, taller, round.....or whatever shape necessary to fit properly. Each employee needs their own personal stack of masks.

Wear a mask of any kind and hope for the best, but don't count on it to give full protection if it isn't properly fitted to your face.

She also wears a plastic face shield to give a double layer of protection. She wears it at work and out shopping anywhere, but says few people do.

Even with that it may not fully protect, but it is the best we got right now.

Her retirement home is down to only 1 resident in the home with covid and 1 sent to the hospital, so it appears their efforts at mitigation are working.

It certainly helped when they locked down the home.


----------



## sags

I wouId also add.......all the residents in the home are triple vaccinated and elderly, many with co-morbidities and instead of being rushed to the hospital gasping for air, they recovered in their suites with minor symptoms. Only 1 resident was taken to hospital.

The vaccinations are obviously working !


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> No, Alberta health source is not fake news.
> 
> Your post is fake news though.
> 21% of Albertans are unvaccinated, not 14%
> 28% are not fully vaccinated
> You are giving numbers for ICUs, not hospitalizations.
> For hospitalizations, unvaccinated account for 47%.
> 
> View attachment 22608
> 
> 
> 
> And the ICU looks extremely well in Alberta
> View attachment 22607
> 
> 
> And for total hospitalizations:
> 
> View attachment 22609
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that is still before the incidental COVID vs hospitalized from COVID


I was just repeating what Dr Hinshaw was saying in their press conference. The numbers are right if you exclude children under 5. Even if you are correct 21% of the population is causing close to 50% of the hospitalizations.


----------



## damian13ster

No argument. Just accuracy and dealing with facts is extremely important. And in past years facts are solely missing from public debate
So I have provided actual, factual numbers precisely from the source you have referenced


----------



## Beaver101

Toronto terminates 461 city employees who failed to comply with COVID-19 vaccine policy

Looks like Tory wasn't kidding about the City of Toronto's termination of employment policy for being unvaxxed. Besides, he has a back-up plan. 

Unfortunately, that doesn't include reducing property taxes for the shortage of services. But then I'm certain Torontonians has the patience and understanding for that, if not worn down already.

Toronto planning for 'worst case scenario' in which 50 to 60 per cent of staff are absent as zoo and some library branches prepare to close


----------



## sags

If that is the hill those employees choose to die on........so be it.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> If that is the hill those employees choose to die on........so be it.


When they come after you no one will be left to defend you.


----------



## like_to_retire

HappilyRetired said:


> When they come after you no one will be left to defend you.


He's already been vaccinated so they won't be coming after him.

ltr


----------



## damian13ster

Dr. Fritz François, chief of hospital operations at NYU Langone Health in New York City, said about 65% of patients admitted to that system with COVID-19 recently were primarily hospitalized for something else and were incidentally found to have the virus.

At two large Seattle hospitals over the past two weeks, three-quarters of the 64 patients testing positive for the coronavirus were admitted with a primary diagnosis other than COVID-19.









US hospitals seeing different kind of COVID surge this time


Hospitals across the U.S. are feeling the wrath of the omicron variant and getting thrown into disarray that is different from earlier COVID-19 surges.




www.startribune.com





That is crazy. 2/3 of COVID patients have incidental positive test


----------



## damian13ster

like_to_retire said:


> He's already been vaccinated so they won't be coming after him.
> 
> ltr


They will. For different reason. Either when he finally says enough at 13th dose, or because they don't like how he votes, thinks, where he is from, what color he is, or how he spends his time.
Once you allow government to break human rights and use scapegoats, they don't stop.


----------



## MrMatt

Several places are seeing staff absences in the 10-30% range.
CNN had an article (lost the link) but it was 30% EMS, 21% Police 17% Fire department.

Windsor area hospitals reported their employee absence rate is 5x normal.

Hospitalization is spiking fast. 
I think Hospitalization is a good proxy for how many people are getting sick with COVID, and hence how much it's spreading.





Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca













I'm honestly not too concerned with Omicron itself, I'm concerned what happens with 20-30%+ absence rate.
That's a lot of chaos


----------



## damian13ster

There is an easy fix to 20-30% absence rate - drop isolation period for anyone without symptoms.
Same as with any other sickness in winter. Don't go to work if you have cold or flu or omicron symptoms. Go to work otherwise.
Sending infected nurses to work was the first step to do that. Rest of society has to follow


----------



## like_to_retire

damian13ster said:


> They will. For different reason. Either when he finally says enough at 13th dose....


I suspect I've had that many flu shots over these many years. I didn't feel forced - I just felt lucky to get it for free and that it was available to protect me.



damian13ster said:


> Once you allow government to break human rights and use scapegoats, they don't stop.


I remember them saying that when seat belts became mandatory. You would have thought the world was coming to an end.

ltr


----------



## damian13ster

like_to_retire said:


> I suspect I've had that many flu shots over these many years. I didn't feel forced - I just felt lucky to get it for free and that it was available to protect me.
> 
> 
> 
> I remember them saying that when seat belts became mandatory. You would have thought the world was coming to an end.
> 
> ltr


Because you weren't forced or coerced to flu shot.
You gave voluntary consent to medical procedure.

I don't know who was saying that. You got any links? What section of a charter, international standards, treaties, accords were broken?

Voluntary consent to medical procedure is absolutely essential. You have a right to refuse any medical intervention.
And if you try to argue that vaccinations are voluntary, then actually look up definition of 'voluntary consent'


----------



## damian13ster

COVID in Europe: Netherlands to reopen shops and hairdressers


Here's a round-up of the COVID situation across Europe.




www.euronews.com





France with their insane vaccine passports with a jab every 5 months is not doing so hot


----------



## james4beach

Winnipeg has a severe shortage of police right now, due to sickness.

BC's Public Health is warning that up to 1/3 of employees might soon be out sick with covid.


----------



## like_to_retire

damian13ster said:


> Because you weren't forced or coerced to flu shot.
> You gave voluntary consent to medical procedure.


It's painfully obvious that you're someone who doesn't worry about cancer treatments and elective surgeries put off because beds are filled with people who chose not to get vaccinated. You have fun on the internet acting like some sort of rights activist who has zero skin in the game. Life must be nice for you.

ltr


----------



## damian13ster

like_to_retire said:


> It's painfully obvious that you're someone who doesn't worry about cancer treatments and elective surgeries put off because beds are filled with people who chose not to get vaccinated. You have fun on the internet acting like some sort of rights activist who has zero skin in the game. Life must be nice for you.
> 
> ltr












You blame that bottom pink for elective surgery cancellation? Why not the middle pink?

You found yourself a scapegoats and now want to break their human rights and remove the ability to provide voluntary consent.

Yes, life is pretty nice for me, but I still respect human rights of the abused and scapegoated minority instead of being a selfish prick who wants human rights abuse as long as it doesn't touch him


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Winnipeg has a severe shortage of police right now, due to sickness.
> 
> BC's Public Health is warning that up to 1/3 of employees might soon be out sick with covid.


Yet they opened up the schools, how many days till they'll close because the teachers got sick?

I much prefer Ontario who closed them from the start.
It's easy enough to look at any jurisdiction with a spiking Omicron rate and see the problems they have.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Several places are seeing staff absences in the 10-30% range.
> CNN had an article (lost the link) but it was 30% EMS, 21% Police 17% Fire department.
> 
> Windsor area hospitals reported their employee absence rate is 5x normal.
> 
> Hospitalization is spiking fast.
> I think Hospitalization is a good proxy for how many people are getting sick with COVID, and hence how much it's spreading.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid-19.ontario.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 22615
> 
> 
> I'm honestly not too concerned with Omicron itself, I'm concerned what happens with 20-30%+ absence rate.
> That's a lot of chaos





MrMatt said:


> Several places are seeing staff absences in the 10-30% range.
> CNN had an article (lost the link) but it was 30% EMS, 21% Police 17% Fire department.
> 
> Windsor area hospitals reported their employee absence rate is 5x normal.
> 
> Hospitalization is spiking fast.
> I think Hospitalization is a good proxy for how many people are getting sick with COVID, and hence how much it's spreading.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid-19.ontario.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 22615
> 
> 
> I'm honestly not too concerned with Omicron itself, I'm concerned what happens with 20-30%+ absence rate.
> That's a lot of chaos


That appears to be the biggest issue. I have heard by rumour that some major hospitals have 30% of the staff out with positive tests. I believe that is why jurisdictions have been adopting the 5 day isolation rule. Extraordinary circumstances require extraordinary decisions.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> That appears to be the biggest issue. I have heard by rumour that some major hospitals have 30% of the staff out with positive tests. I believe that is why jurisdictions have been adopting the 5 day isolation rule. Extraordinary circumstances require extraordinary decisions.


I watched part of Ford press conference, he was very clear that the reasons he is shutting schools and imposing harsh measures is the staffing problem.
Of course the media went with all sorts of other stories, really focusing on schools and other clickbait items.
They pretty much ignored the simple fact that if people are too sick to work, the systems will stop working.

The 20-30% callout rates are a reality for some jobs in some areas.
EMS & Police have good numbers coming out of the US.
I've heard similar numbers for some hospitals, but Canada isn't there yet, though they're redeploying staff to accommodate the influx.

Even if you have "flu like symptoms", ie coughing, sneezing, fever etc, and aren't "going to die", you're still too sick to work, and that's a problem.


----------



## james4beach

This isn't just a problem of people out sick with minor symptoms, or staffing concerns. Many people are ending up in hospital too.

Hospitalizations across the country are rapidly rising, as shown in this data from PHAC

The upward rise matches up with the start of Omicron's spread in Canada.


----------



## damian13ster

Until they start breaking out incidental COVID cases, those stats aren't helpful with Omicron.
If in Seattle and New York 2/3 of hospitalizations are people who incidentally tested for COVID while in hospital for other reasons, then why the situation would be any different in Toronto or Vancouver?
Do they have total hospital loads for Ontario? I know they have them in Alberta:










The yellow space is free hospital spaces. Over Christmas it was lower, and perhaps beginning of October. Other than those two time periods, the hospital vacancy is highest it was in 2021


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> This isn't just a problem of people out sick with minor symptoms, or staffing concerns. Many people are ending up in hospital too.


Yes, hospitalization is a huge issue, but people aren't listening.
They don't realize that even with a much lower hospitalization rate, if you dramatically increase the number of cases you still have a problem with overload.

Also staffing is a HUGE issue. It is one thing if 1-2% are out sick, that's around normal and we can accommodate it.
10,20,30% that has a notable impact on capacity/quality.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Yes, hospitalization is a huge issue, but people aren't listening.
> They don't realize that even with a much lower hospitalization rate, if you dramatically increase the number of cases you still have a problem with overload.
> 
> Also staffing is a HUGE issue. It is one thing if 1-2% are out sick, that's around normal and we can accommodate it.
> 10,20,30% that has a notable impact on capacity/quality.


These are all good points. I don't know why people refuse to take the hospitalizations seriously. We're only a couple weeks into this exponential spread, and look how many people have already ended up in hospital.


----------



## damian13ster

Because we don't know if those people end up in the hospital because of COVID. Once we do find out, then perhaps there will be a reason to worry about.

Scotlands numbers are:
550,000+ Omicron cases
91 people entered hospital
1 in ICU

They broke it down by admission caused by COVID and numbers are not scary at all.

If Ontario breaks down by admission from COVID vs with COVID, and the numbers are vastly different than the ones above, then there might be a reason to worry. 

I agree with Matt for now. Staffing shortages are much bigger deal. Drop the isolation to 0 for asymptomatic - otherwise you will have massive shortages. In my team already around 40% are in isolation - although we can work from home if necessary with decent efficiency so not that big of a deal, just shows the scale of infections.


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> Because we don't know if those people end up in the hospital because of COVID. Once we do find out, then perhaps there will be a reason to worry about.


Why do you think that hospitalization curve is spiking upward then? A sudden national surge of broken legs?

It started when Omicron started spreading. It's extremely likely to be hospitalizations due to COVID.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> Why do you think that hospitalization curve is spiking upward then? A sudden national surge of broken legs?
> 
> It coincides with the case growth in Omicron. It's hospitalizations due to COVID.


No, sudden surge in cases. If you have 10% prevalence of Omicron in society, you expect there to be 10% prevalence of Omicron in those admitted to hospitals. And then you have a spread in hospital, and those are susceptible to outbreaks, especially now that they are sending covid positive staff to work. If it is as contagious as people say, I do not see how soon the increase won't be even more drastic - although I don't know if people are tested other than during admission.

Again, we will know more once they actually start providing numbers on admissions from COVID vs incidental COVID. 
I don't understand why it takes so long to implement. Seems like the change could be done rapidly


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> These are all good points. I don't know why people refuse to take the hospitalizations seriously. We're only a couple weeks into this exponential spread, and look how many people have already ended up in hospital.


Caught an interview with Dr Scott Gottlieb. He figures that Delta is still a problem in the US NE. If he is correct that might explain the concerning numbers in Quebec and Ontario. If the system becomes overloaded and their is no room for serious new cases who is turned away? Since the unvaccinated are filling up a very high % of hospital beds may-be the decision should be no vaccine no bed? There has to some sort of criteria for making these decisions.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Because we don't know if those people end up in the hospital because of COVID. Once we do find out, then perhaps there will be a reason to worry about.
> 
> Scotlands numbers are:
> 550,000+ Omicron cases
> 91 people entered hospital
> 1 in ICU
> 
> *They broke it down by admission caused by COVID and numbers are not scary at all.
> 
> If Ontario breaks down by admission from COVID vs with COVID, and the numbers are vastly different than the ones above, then there might be a reason to worry.*
> 
> I agree with Matt for now. Staffing shortages are much bigger deal. Drop the isolation to 0 for asymptomatic - otherwise you will have massive shortages. In my team already around 40% are in isolation - although we can work from home if necessary with decent efficiency so not that big of a deal, just shows the scale of infections.


 ... you don't live in Ontario so what's your concern? Also, your post with the above parts bolded is the most assinined-theory I have ever heard. 

And I feel sorry for MrMatt having the need to continuously explain to you in details on what the situation is and will be like here with Ontario's stats on hospitalizations, ICU, etc. in the coming days.


----------



## damian13ster

There is. There is always the same criteria.
Doctors are bound to treat in a way that will save most lives.
Previous medical choices, lifestyle choices, gender, race, they have nothing to do with those decisions.

Really, the concept of ethics in medical care is relatively well studied and known.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> There is. There is always the same criteria.
> Doctors are bound to treat in a way that will save most lives.
> Previous medical choices, lifestyle choices, gender, race, they have nothing to do with those decisions.
> 
> *Really, the concept of ethics in medical care is relatively well studied and known.*


 ... and your point is?


----------



## damian13ster

Ontario’s fourth wave is approaching the third wave peak for hospitalizations, but is currently further behind in ICU.

In terms of vaccination status, for those in general hospital wards with COVID, *436 were unvaccinated, 96 were partially vaccinated and 1,156 were fully vaccinated*. For patients in ICUs, 123 were unvaccinated while 28 were partially vaccinated and 87 were fully vaccinated.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Ontario’s fourth wave is approaching the third wave peak for hospitalizations, but is currently further behind in ICU.
> 
> In terms of vaccination status, for those in general hospital wards with COVID, *436 were unvaccinated, 96 were partially vaccinated and 1,156 were fully vaccinated*. For patients in ICUs, 123 were unvaccinated while 28 were partially vaccinated and 87 were fully vaccinated.


Your numbers are a few hundred short for hospital admissions.
Also it's the 5th wave. unless you ignore the fourth wave that happened at the end of this summer.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Your numbers are a few hundred short for hospital admissions.
> Also it's the 5th wave. unless you ignore the fourth wave that happened at the end of this summer.


Yeah, it was from here:








Ontario reports total of 2,279 COVID-19 hospitalizations, 319 ICU admissions


Ontario health officials are reporting that more than 300 people with COVID-19 are in intensive care units across the province on Thursday, as hospitals struggle to cope with the rising admissions.




toronto.ctvnews.ca





But they edited the article to remove this paragraph. (article posted 10:30am, but 21min later they edited it, can see it right under headline)
Numbers can be confirmed here:





Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca





Over 400 had unknown vaccination status which still confuses me.


----------



## damian13ster

Looks like COVID mutating into a cold made it actually more dangerous for kids.
Significantly more of them die from RSV and influenza each year, than died during this entire pandemic.
The number is expected to rise though and we are slowly seeing the rise of it as COVID now mutated into virus similar to RSV which is more dangerous for kids



https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/children-hospitalization-omicron-1.6305207


----------



## zinfit

like_to_retire said:


> He's already been vaccinated so they won't be coming after him.
> 
> ltr


I have no idea why any one would be after him. The anti-vaxxers have made their own bed and no one is after these people. We just want them to stay from our hospitals.


----------



## sags

Sad that all 6 new born babies in that hospital with covid were born to unvaccinated mothers.


----------



## Eder

So the hospitals only belong to "right think" Canadians?


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> So the hospitals only belong to "right think" Canadians?


I think the hospitalizations aren't diverse enough, there aren't enough vaccinated people in the ICU. 
What is the governments plan to address this discrepancy?


----------



## zinfit

Eder said:


> So the hospitals only belong to "right think" Canadians?


When they are full and there is no room left for others my motto " is let the the anti-vaxxers die on their principles" especially when they are already plugging up the system.


----------



## james4beach

The data points reported today show ICU cases continuing to rise in both Ontario and Quebec

Quebec's ICU load is approaching the previous peaks.


----------



## HappilyRetired

zinfit said:


> When they are full and there is no room left for others my motto " is let the the anti-vaxxers die on their principles" especially when they are already plugging up the system.


Just imagine how much of our hospital resources have been plugging up the system over the last few decades from obese people and smokers. Had they chosen to live healthy lifestyles we'd have more than enough capacity.


----------



## cainvest

HappilyRetired said:


> Just imagine how much of our hospital resources have been plugging up the system over the last few decades from obese people and smokers. Had they chosen to live healthy lifestyles we'd have more than enough capacity.


Maybe you shouldn't just pick on the obese and smokers ... ban aclohol, driving at speeds above 30 km/h, make flu shots manditory ... the list could go on for a while I think.


----------



## Eder

I choose the pale,under weight,poptart eating demographic that should be denied health care. Let World of Warcraft and Reditt be your demise!


----------



## james4beach

It would be smart to be very cautious now, and not mix with any other household outside your own.

I've already heard from several friends who have seen their families catch covid. One friend said his mom and dad caught it. Another told me the whole extended family caught it. Their mom is in the ICU.

Another friend texted me tonight and said her brother (and his wife) now have covid.

Officials are advising people with normal symptoms to recover at home. Seek medical help if you have persistent chest pain, trouble breathing, insufficient breath, or blue lips.


----------



## cainvest

It's definitely fast spreading now, daily case counts drawf all the previous waves by a significant margin. I know two people that got it this week. Gonna be a sad month or two coming up. Not sure which will have a worse impact, a large % of people being off sick or hospitals overrun ... likely a combination of both I guess.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> I have no idea why any one would be after him. The anti-vaxxers have made their own bed and no one is after these people. We just want them to stay from our hospitals.


Because if you break human rights of certain group then what will stop breaking human rights of another group?
Don't like their medical choices - you get to abuse their rights
Don't like lifestyles - you get to abuse them
Don't vote for people in power - people in power don't like them so get to abuse their rights
Think some race or religion is negative to society - you get to abuse their human rights.

The moment you allow majority to abuse human rights of minority, they won't stop.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> When they are full and there is no room left for others my motto " is let the the anti-vaxxers die on their principles" especially when they are already plugging up the system.


You are the worst kind of person - an abuser who thinks he has moral ground to abuse others. - but that doesn't mean you can ignore human rights.
Even scumbags, same as people who make mistakes, poor choices, or simply belong to minority - deserve to have their human rights respected


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> It's definitely fast spreading now, daily case counts drawf all the previous waves by a significant margin. I know two people that got it this week. Gonna be a sad month or two coming up. Not sure which will have a worse impact, a large % of people being off sick or hospitals overrun ... likely a combination of both I guess.


In my case, I just don't want any of my family members to end up having to visit a hospital or clinic. Although I earlier planned to visit my parents, I'm calling that off, and will not visit them until this wave is over.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> It's definitely fast spreading now, daily case counts drawf all the previous waves by a significant margin. I know two people that got it this week. Gonna be a sad month or two coming up. Not sure which will have a worse impact, a large % of people being off sick or hospitals overrun ... likely a combination of both I guess.


Many places are seeing 30% reduction in staffing, which means hospital capacity is way below normal.

10% of the kids in my kids classes have COVID (they handed out tests before the break) We're all glad it's online school, as much as we dislike online school

I'm literally not leaving the house, except to get the mail.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> In my case, I just don't want any of my family members to end up having to visit a hospital or clinic. Although I earlier planned to visit my parents, I'm calling that off, and will not visit them until this wave is over.


I've heard more people say "It's milder, I just want to get it over and done with".
If you want to go down this path (which IMO is dumb), wait a month or at least a few weeks and see what things look like.

Friend of mines parents have had Covid for almost 2 weeks, they're at home, but in rough shape. 60's, double vaxxed with boosters.


----------



## sags

We also don't know the long term effects of any of the covid variants. Many people have been left with "long hauler" symptoms.

Our financial support social programs aren't set up to handle people with these extended symptoms and can't work.

Do they get sick pay from EI, WSIB, CPP disability or go on welfare ?

Likely EI is the easiest way to support them, but changes will likely be needed for that benefit to be effective.

It needs to be increased well above the $500 maximum per week and 15 week duration.


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> You are the worst kind of person - an abuser who thinks he has moral ground to abuse others. - but that doesn't mean you can ignore human rights.
> Even scumbags, same as people who make mistakes, poor choices, or simply belong to minority - deserve to have their human rights respected


the only thing worst for human rights is the tyranny of the minority . This small group is a major cause of a healthcare crisis and there by putting at risk all people needing healthcare.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> *the only thing worst for human rights is the tyranny of the minority* . This small group is a major cause of a healthcare crisis and there by putting at risk all people needing healthcare.


 ... with this "minority" being self-made.


----------



## Beaver101

Situation in hospitals expected to worsen as doctors isolate and admissions rise



> ... _Dale, of the OHA, said that's playing out across the province. People who are fully vaccinated are far less likely to wind up in hospital, so the high vaccination rate appears to be staving off a disaster in the province.
> 
> "It's really the unvaccinated who are extremely vulnerable in this environment," he said. "*If (Omicron) was the original version of COVID-19, it would be the stuff of nightmares."*_


 ... and there's always another chance with new variants as we continuously allow the spread / pandemic to drag.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in Canada:

Key sectors facing staffing struggles amid escalating pandemic


----------



## Beaver101

Erin O'Toole urges accommodations for unvaccinated Canadians amid Omicron wave

Now that Mr. OToole managed to get his tootsies planted on his seat in his own party, I think he should get his other political priorities sorted out first than trying to earn brownie points with the "unvaccinateds have rights too" by continuously politicizing it.



> ... _Despite saying exceptions should be made for those like truckers, the Tory leader appeared not to take an issue with the mandatory vaccination policy that applies to members of the Canadian Armed Forces, of which he is a veteran.
> 
> “With service above self that we see in the Canadian Armed Forces, there will be a requirement for many and most operators to be vaccinated,” he said._


 ... the irony or the idiot?


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> I've heard more people say "It's milder, I just want to get it over and done with".
> If you want to go down this path (which IMO is dumb), wait a month or at least a few weeks and see what things look like.
> 
> Friend of mines parents have had Covid for almost 2 weeks, they're at home, but in rough shape. 60's, double vaxxed with boosters.


I guess there is some logic to _"It's milder, I just want to get it over and done with"._ Of course one still rolls the dice even with 3 shots of protection and we really don't need any additional cases right now. For many it'll just be a case of "duck and cover" until the counts comes down.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> the only thing worst for human rights is the tyranny of the minority . This small group is a major cause of a healthcare crisis and there by putting at risk all people needing healthcare.


They aren't. Healthcare system has less people in hospital than on average at any other year in the winter. Also, if absolutely everyone was fully vaccinated, you would decrease hospitalizations in Ontario maybe by 300










​

The problem is with staffing and it is fully self-inflicted. They fired healthcare staff, they have isolation periods that is taking people away from this jobs. They did nothing in 2 years to prepare. Canada has one of the lowest amounts of beds/capita.
The numbers of spaces in hospitals didn't increase
Testing capacity is a joke - positivity rate constantly over 30%
Total and complete failure

The entire issue is created by government. They failed miserably, continue to fail, and found themselves scapegoats.
And the gullible people accepted the scapegoats and now are jumping at each others throats


Where is the breakdown of incidental cases? They were supposed to start it days ago


----------



## Beaver101

^ Your solution: Pray for a miracle.


----------



## Eder

Government solution...do nothing to increase hospital capacity for 2 years during a pandemic...instead give our Indians $40,000,000,000.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> Government solution...do nothing to increase hospital capacity for 2 years during a pandemic...instead give our Indians $40,000,000,000.


To be fair, Trudeau thinks he'll win votes with that. But it's kind of off topic for this thread.
Secondly I don't think the Federal government should be funding provincial responsibilities.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Oct. 17, 2021
Saskatchewan set a new daily record for COVID-19 ICU patients on Sunday with 84 people currently receiving intensive care, after breaking its existing record on Saturday with 81.
The province reported five more residents have died after testing positive for COVID-19, in addition to 320 new cases.
Jan 05, 2022 
No (0) new deaths reported. 13 ICU hospitalizations
Jan 06, 2022
Of the 12 patients with COVID-19 in ICU, one case is considered an *incidental*, asymptomatic infection.
The province will now be reporting incidental hospitalization data, meaning identifying which patients are in hospital for COVID-19-related illness, and which patients have COVID-19 but were admitted to hospital for a non-COVID-19-related reason, such as a broken leg. 1 death.
Jan 07, 2022
Eleven residents are in intensive care, no new deaths.
*Premier Scott Moe reiterated his stance that the provincial government “will not be implementing mandatory COVID-19 vaccinations.” “While we strongly encourage everyone to get vaccinated to protect yourself and others from serious illness,” Moe said in a statement, “in Saskatchewan this is a personal choice, not one imposed on you by the government.”
Saskatchewan remains the only province in Canada with no restrictions on gatherings.*


----------



## Eder

In a tweet sent out just before noon, the premier noted that the Alberta legislature recently removed the power of mandatory vaccination from the Public Health Act. 

Up yours Junior.


----------



## zinfit

Eder said:


> Government solution...do nothing to increase hospital capacity for 2 years during a pandemic...instead give our Indians $40,000,000,000.


would agree with this. Priorities, priorities.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Here’s real world situation, a person got vaccinated in may first dose Pfizer, in July second dose Moderna, because Canadian health scientists said mix and match is fine even superior. Then the USA officials disagreed ( at that time, don’t follow the situation now) and to travel to the USA a person need to be fully vaccinated (only one type of vaccine accepted). so the person went ahead and got their second dose of Pfizer in August.
The question now. Is the person need the fourth dose and which brand of vaccine to be considered ”boosted” or no action required and the person is protected against omicron? Thanks


----------



## james4beach

I did a bit of public outreach today, trying to help some local store workers. I discovered a local supply of CAN95 masks. They're impossible to find, even Costco is sold out, but I found some. They're just hiding in a corner that nobody seems to have discovered.

So I popped into a grocery store, where there are quite a few employees who appear to be over age 50, and tipped them off about this hidden stash of N95s. Hopefully it helps them out. These employees are still wearing surgical masks on the job, and that's just not going to cut it.


----------



## Eder

The US at this time requires no proof of vaccination at land crossings. I crossed from Tecate back to Potrero today...they did make me wear my mask...customs guy had his nose sticking out lol. I didn't need any vaccine proof when entering from BC 2 months ago either.

btw no mask will cut it as Covid spreads by aerosols...been known for a long time...pretty much Covid theatre at this point but whatever keeps the herd calm.Get vaccinated & boosted ASAP...


----------



## Money172375

Our anti-vaxxer neighbour has been very sick for 3 weeks with the “flu”


Eder said:


> The US at this time requires no proof of vaccination at land crossings. I crossed from Tecate back to Potrero today...they did make me wear my mask...customs guy had his nose sticking out lol. I didn't need any vaccine proof when entering from BC 2 months ago either.
> 
> btw no mask will cut it as Covid spreads by aerosols...been known for a long time...pretty much Covid theatre at this point but whatever keeps the herd calm.Get vaccinated & boosted ASAP...


I believe the vaccine requirement is there but no enforced. We were asked about it and verbally confirmed.


----------



## MK7GTI




----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I did a bit of public outreach today, trying to help some local store workers. I discovered a local supply of CAN95 masks. They're impossible to find, even Costco is sold out, but I found some. They're just hiding in a corner that nobody seems to have discovered.
> 
> So I popped into a grocery store, where there are quite a few employees who appear to be over age 50, and tipped them off about this hidden stash of N95s. Hopefully it helps them out. These employees are still wearing surgical masks on the job, and that's just not going to cut it.


N95 are still readily available at Costco.


https://www.costco.ca/particulate-respirator-n95---20-masks.product.100698144.html



Also 95PFE, which is equivalent.


https://www.costco.ca/medicom-connections-95pfe-respirator---20-masks.product.100753477.html


The Canadian Standards Association (CSA) Group launched a certification program in October 2020, which provides an alternative to NIOSH for Canadian manufacturers of FFRs. Respirators certified through this program will be designated 95PFE.





COVID-19 medical masks and respirators: For health professionals - Canada.ca


Information on N95 respirators for medical use, surgical and procedural masks, strategies to address shortages and how to wear a respirator.




www.canada.ca





In Ontario Hospitals have enough, as do Long term care and they have a supply for teachers.

I personally bought a few boxes of N95's about 100 or so, for the kids to wear to school if they open up.

Apparently in BC they're sending kids back without N95s for kids or teachers, which IMO is irresponsible.


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> N95 are still readily available at Costco.
> 
> 
> https://www.costco.ca/particulate-respirator-n95---20-masks.product.100698144.html
> 
> 
> 
> Also 95PFE, which is equivalent.
> 
> 
> https://www.costco.ca/medicom-connections-95pfe-respirator---20-masks.product.100753477.html
> 
> 
> The Canadian Standards Association (CSA) Group launched a certification program in October 2020, which provides an alternative to NIOSH for Canadian manufacturers of FFRs. Respirators certified through this program will be designated 95PFE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 medical masks and respirators: For health professionals - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> Information on N95 respirators for medical use, surgical and procedural masks, strategies to address shortages and how to wear a respirator.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canada.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Ontario Hospitals have enough, as do Long term care and they have a supply for teachers.
> 
> I personally bought a few boxes of N95's about 100 or so, for the kids to wear to school if they open up.
> 
> Apparently in BC they're sending kids back without N95s for kids or teachers, which IMO is irresponsible.


$3?

I‘ve seen them as low as $0.30 USD on Amazon, although I saw a news story that 60% of N95s in the US are fake.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> $3?
> 
> I‘ve seen them as low as $0.30 USD on Amazon, although I saw a news story that 60% of N95s in the US are fake.


$3 for the N95, $1.50 for the 95PFE.


----------



## sags

Unless they are fitted properly for each person and worn properly, the higher grade masks are as useless as a cloth mask.

When fitted properly, the masks are tight and uncomfortable so most people wouldn't wear them properly anyways.

Healthcare professionals or people dealing with at risk populations should use them, but they have them fitted and know how to wear them properly.

The best protection is vaccination and avoiding high risk settings. There isn't much to prevent infection......only the worst outcomes.


----------



## cainvest

Looking at the local MB numbers about a week since the holidays, case counts have obviously skyrocketed and hospitalizations are on a signficant rise as well. The only somewhat positive news is the ICU numbers, although a bit higher, continue to go up at a much, much slower rate.

I think another couple of weeks we'll get a good idea on impact of this wave. I do wonder what the outcome of all the vaccine/booster shots combined with the high count of infected each day will have on future waves.


----------



## sags

Another variant has been discovered in France and there are 5 cases in Canada.

Little is known about the variant except that it it has many changes to it's structure.

WHO is tracking it but not given it a name yet. People are calling it the IHU variant for now.









B.1.640: 5 Canadian cases of little-known coronavirus variant


The B.1.640, or 'IHU' coronavirus variant that made headlines recently has been a 'variant under monitoring' since November 2021, according to the World Health Organization, but is currently not circulating widely. Five cases from Canada have been reported on GISAID.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> I think another couple of weeks we'll get a good idea on impact of this wave. I do wonder what the outcome of all the vaccine/booster shots combined with the high count of infected each day will have on future waves.


I think the 30% callouts they're seeing will likely become a reality, which will be a mess, but this might be "the end" of COVID in it's current form.


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> Here’s real world situation, a person got vaccinated in may first dose Pfizer, in July second dose Moderna, because Canadian health scientists said mix and match is fine even superior. Then the USA officials disagreed ( at that time, don’t follow the situation now) and to travel to the USA a person need to be fully vaccinated (only one type of vaccine accepted). so the person went ahead and got their second dose of Pfizer in August.
> The question now. Is the person need the fourth dose and which brand of vaccine to be considered ”boosted” or no action required and the person is protected against omicron? Thanks


I think the main thing is how long ago they had their latest dose. 6 months after August is February if my math is right. In Ontario, we recently decreased the criteria for a booster from 6 months to 3 months due to Omicron. 

So if I were this person, I'd try to book a booster shot for the not-too-distant future, but I wouldn't stress too much about it if I couldn't get one right away. My understanding is that the original series (no booster) is still providing good protection against severe outcomes, even after 6 months. And that person had 3 doses, so they might be better protected than a 2-dose standard person. But it's hard to say since this is a weird case and I'm sure nobody has done studies on such outlying situations.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> I personally bought a few boxes of N95's about 100 or so, for the kids to wear to school if they open up.
> 
> Apparently in BC they're sending kids back without N95s for kids or teachers, which IMO is irresponsible.


Smart. I think the kids should wear N95s until we have a better grasp of what's going on at the moment. We have such poor numbers, very poor monitoring and stats on the current situation.


----------



## james4beach

Spudd said:


> So if I were this person, I'd try to book a booster shot for the not-too-distant future, but I wouldn't stress too much about it if I couldn't get one right away. My understanding is that the original series (no booster) is still providing good protection against severe outcomes, even after 6 months.


Yes that's how I understand it as well. Previous vaccinations do seem to still protect against severe outcomes, as far as we know right now.

The boosters are attempting to prevent symptomatic infection. I'm worried that this effort is somewhat futile though. Two shots have just about 0% effectiveness against omicron for symptomatic infection. But perhaps even worse, the third shot -- according to an Ontario study which went to preprint just a few days ago -- is only about 30% to 40% effective against symptomatic infection.

So if someone receives a booster shot, it's not like they can just go right back into high-risk settings. With how much omicron is circulating right now, they're still very likely to catch it and get sick.

*And once vaccinated people are sick, they do spread it to others*. They contribute to disease spread. We really have to rethink those vaccine passports, because those environments are not as "safe" as everyone seems to believe.

The boosters may be useful for strengthening the ongoing immune strength, but I'm not sure the boosters are too useful for protecting you from the CURRENT wave.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> The boosters are attempting to prevent symptomatic infection.


I see boosters strictly as a means to help keep people from going to the hospital.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> I see boosters strictly as a means to help keep people from going to the hospital.


Yeah good point, they are supposed to boost the immune response which is especially valuable for the elderly and people who might not have had sufficient immunity from the previous shots.

Apparently, the older one gets, the faster one loses the immunity from previous vaccinations. I guess boosters try to make up for that.


----------



## Eder

According to data being fully vaxed now makes people more susceptible to infection. We need to stick to truthful narrative, people resisting vaccines are looking for BS statements to justify their case.


----------



## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> According to data being fully vaxed now makes people more susceptible to infection. We need to stick to truthful narrative, people resisting vaccines are looking for BS statements to justify their case.


You want to provide a source for that?


----------



## bgc_fan

As for N95 masks, I don't think it'll be a bad idea to check with the CDC website for their list of approved N95 masks if in doubt. 





Approved N95 Respirators 3M Suppliers List | NPPTL | NIOSH | CDC


This page contains a suppliers list of NIOSH-Approved N95 Particulate Filtering Facepiece Respirators: 3M Suppliers List




www.cdc.gov





But doesn't look like they have a list of approved KN95 masks.


----------



## Eder




----------



## zinfit

Eder said:


> According to data being fully vaxed now makes people more susceptible to infection. We need to stick to truthful narrative, people resisting vaccines are looking for BS statements to justify their case.


I guess that is why 50% of the covid hospitalizations are the unvaccinated.?


----------



## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> View attachment 22640


Pretty graph. I ask again. Source?


----------



## zinfit

Eder said:


> View attachment 22640


this graph doesn't really say anything except a bunch of dots.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

A new COVID-19 variant dubbed Deltacron has been discovered in Cyprus, with health authorities announcing a press conference for the coming week.

The discovery was made by Dr Leontios Kostrikis, who leads the team of scientists working at the University of Cyprus biotechnology and molecular virology lab.
Speaking to local media, Kostrikis explained that the new variant, Deltacron, shares the genetic background of the Delta variant along with some of the mutations of Omicron.
“We have found a significant number of mutations only previously found in Omicron cases, which is different from other variants as it has 30 mutations,” Dr Kostrikis told Cyprus Mail. “Ten of these were identified in these samples taken in Cyprus”.
The variant was identified in 25 samples taken in Cyprus, 11 of which came from people hospitalized for COVID-19 and 14 from the general population.


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> As for N95 masks, I don't think it'll be a bad idea to check with the CDC website for their list of approved N95 masks if in doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Approved N95 Respirators 3M Suppliers List | NPPTL | NIOSH | CDC
> 
> 
> This page contains a suppliers list of NIOSH-Approved N95 Particulate Filtering Facepiece Respirators: 3M Suppliers List
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But doesn't look like they have a list of approved KN95 masks.


KN95 is a different standard.

95PFE is also a different standard, but CSA says it's equivalent, and that should be good enough.


----------



## james4beach

Saw one of my neighbours on the floor of my building...

This young woman in her 20s never wears a mask in the common areas (I've seen her do this several times). She goes into the elevator like that too. She's a waitress at a restaurant, so she spends all day in a very high risk covid environment. Then comes back to the building, goes into elevators without a mask.

And then a senior comes in and takes the elevator next.

Today I asked her politely to wear a mask, and she said "I know". She's violating the rules of both the property and province. The next time I see her do it, I will tell the building manager.


----------



## Money172375

Ontario has started offering 4th does to those in LTC.

The UK has decided 4th does aren’t needed and 3 shots are enough for protection. They typically are further along in their research and findings. I’m hoping 3 shots puts and end to this, but alas there are billions unvaccinated at all in the world.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Saw one of my neighbours on the floor of my building...
> 
> Young woman in her 20s who never wears a mask. She goes into the elevator like that too. She's a waitress at a restaurant, so she spends all day in a very high risk covid environment. Then comes back to the building, goes into elevators without a mask.
> 
> And then a senior comes in and takes the elevator next.


Send the waitress to Florida. She’ll fit right in.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Send the waitress to Florida. She’ll fit right in.


Yeah she'd fit in great in Florida or many part of the US.

I wonder what else I can do to force her to follow the law.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Money172375 said:


> Send the waitress to Florida. She’ll fit right in.


Florida has had no lockdowns, almost no one wears masks, it's full of seniors who are in the high risk demographic, and still has a lower fatality rate than New York and 10 other states.


----------



## Eder

bgc_fan said:


> Pretty graph. I ask again. Source?


Source is Ont gov data...but this data is not new. Just not reported often. Something is making vaccinated people more susceptible to initial infections.The good news rate of infections have been dropping in Ontario for the last week , a few weeks ahead of predictions.


----------



## damian13ster

Vaccinated people were less susceptible to alpha and beta infections. That means they were less likely to acquire natural immunity so it makes sense why they are now more likely to catch COVID. 
Logically it makes sense.


----------



## damian13ster

Trivia:
Spot the pandemic

































Data tables: COVID-19’s impact on health care systems | CIHI


Explore our latest data on the impact of COVID-19 on Canada’s health care systems and the health of Canadians




www.cihi.ca






The problem: people on highest court in US are plain morons spreading fake news:



https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/08/sotomayors-false-claim-that-over-100000-children-are-serious-condition-with-covid/



And she is about to decide on liberties and government power over individual's bodies.....


----------



## Eder

james4beach said:


> Smart. I think the kids should wear N95s until we have a better grasp of what's going on at the moment. We have such poor numbers, very poor monitoring and stats on the current situation.


Theres a lot we think we know but...

*U.K. Study Fails to Prove Masks Work in Schools*










U.K. Study Fails to Prove Masks Work in Schools


England introduced new mask rules in schools to curb the spread of Covid based on a study that didn’t provide conclusive evidence of their effectiveness, according to a report published by the Department of Education.




www.bloomberg.com


----------



## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> Source is Ont gov data...but this data is not new. Just not reported often. Something is making vaccinated people more susceptible to initial infections.The good news rate of infections have been dropping in Ontario for the last week , a few weeks ahead of predictions.


So you don't have a link to the data and just taking it on faith. Sounds like someone just looked on Facebook and reposting some "research".

Saying just Ont gov data is meaningless because it doesn't show how the data is being interpreted, if we don't have the raw data to look at.


----------



## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> Theres a lot we think we know but...
> 
> *U.K. Study Fails to Prove Masks Work in Schools*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.K. Study Fails to Prove Masks Work in Schools
> 
> 
> England introduced new mask rules in schools to curb the spread of Covid based on a study that didn’t provide conclusive evidence of their effectiveness, according to a report published by the Department of Education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com


Just looking at the headline without reading the article right?

Quote: 
_Schools with face-covering rules in October 2021 saw their absence rate drop by 2.3 percentage points, to 3%, two to three weeks later. In schools that didn’t use masks, absences fell by 1.7 percentage points, to 3.6%._

The reason why the conclusion is that it fails to prove masks don't work is that the sample size is too small and the difference between 3% and 3.6% is too small to be significant.

In other words, more data is required.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> Just looking at the headline without reading the article right?
> 
> Quote:
> _Schools with face-covering rules in October 2021 saw their absence rate drop by 2.3 percentage points, to 3%, two to three weeks later. In schools that didn’t use masks, absences fell by 1.7 percentage points, to 3.6%._
> 
> The reason why the conclusion is that it fails to prove masks don't work is that the sample size is too small and the difference between 3% and 3.6% is too small to be significant.
> 
> In other words, more data is required.


That is precisely how scientific studies work. You establish confidence interval based on the sample size and then you see whether the magnitude of change is sufficient to conclude (with x% certainty) that the independent variable has effect on dependent variable.

Clearly a difference between 2.3% drop and 1.7% drop wasn't large enough to conclude that wearing masks is effective. 
Not surprising though. That is a tiny reduction. all that hustle for 0.6% drop in absence rate?


----------



## james4beach

bgc_fan said:


> In other words, more data is required.


These aren't controlled experiments but we have plenty of other data to suggest that masks are effective, reduce transmission.

I do what all the doctors advise and do themselves. Several of my friends are doctors, one guy is an ER surgeon who sometimes does COVID rotations. They have been telling me since December to wear N95 or N99 masks around strangers.

Simply put, I am going to follow the advice from the surgeon doing COVID shifts.

My cousin, also a doctor, caught COVID at her hospital last year and she suspects it happened during an office party where all the doctors took off their masks to eat cake and socialize (yes they were being stupid). Shortly after, roughly 70% of them tested positive for COVID.


----------



## Eder

bgc_fan said:


> So you don't have a link to the data and just taking it on faith. Sounds like someone just looked on Facebook and reposting some "research".
> 
> Saying just Ont gov data is meaningless because it doesn't show how the data is being interpreted, if we don't have the raw data to look at.


If you care to go to Ontario's Covid data site there is a pretty graph even most here can interpret...why not try rather than pretending data like this doesn't exist? Lets see... I typed " Ontario covid data" into Duckduckgo and....? Must be a right or left wing conspiracy site right lol.


----------



## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> If you care to go to Ontario's Covid data site there is a pretty graph even most here can interpret...why not try rather than pretending data like this doesn't exist? Lets see... I typed " Ontario covid data" into Duckduckgo and....? Must be a right or left wing conspiracy site right lol.


You don't seem to understand. There is a lot of data, unless you actually show what data you're using, it's meaningless. I could be looking at a different set of data and come to a different conclusion, so it's necessary to know exactly what data they used to draw that graph. Otherwise it's meaningless Facebook noise and misninformation.

Edit: Basically, you're looking at numbers and making a conclusion based on guesses. Saying that vaccination is making people more susceptible to covid is a bit wrong with there are a few issues: not everyone is being tested, but let's assume that statistically it's even; the other issue is that those who are in the ICUs are in greater proportion to be unvaccinated; lastly, there's little distinction between those who test positive and those who are actually symptomatic.


----------



## damian13ster

Took about 10 seconds to find



https://www.publichealthontario.ca/en/data-and-analysis/infectious-disease/covid-19-data-surveillance/covid-19-data-tool?tab=trends




Isn't now official policy, due to shortage of tests, that only symptomatic people get PCR?
Vaccinated people just passed unvaccinated in ICU as well in Ontario (yes, I know, proportionally they are much lower, just trending in worrying direction). Just 3 days ago it was still about 60-40% for the unvaccinated. Maybe finally Delta cases are being cleared.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> View attachment 22645
> 
> 
> Took about 10 seconds to find
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.publichealthontario.ca/en/data-and-analysis/infectious-disease/covid-19-data-surveillance/covid-19-data-tool?tab=trends
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't now official policy, due to shortage of tests, that only symptomatic people get PCR?
> Vaccinated people just passed unvaccinated in ICU as well in Ontario (yes, I know, proportionally they are much lower, just trending in worrying direction). Just 3 days ago it was still about 60-40% for the unvaccinated. Maybe finally Delta cases are being cleared.


So, you want to support the idea that vaccination increase covid considering that we've had vaccinations over a year with no such indications?

I'll tell you what the most likely reasons for increased in vaccinated people getting omicron: vaccinated people are most likely front-line workers and be likely exposed to covid situations; with vaccine passports, they would be more likely to go out in social situations; and with the prevalence of omicron over delta, you're going to see more breakthroughs.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> So, you want to support the idea that vaccination increase covid considering that we've had vaccinations over a year with no such indications?
> 
> I'll tell you what the most likely reasons for increased in vaccinated people getting omicron: vaccinated people are most likely front-line workers and be likely exposed to covid situations; with vaccine passports, they would be more likely to go out in social situations; and with the prevalence of omicron over delta, you're going to see more breakthroughs.


I am not supporting that idea at all. Just providing facts.
Previously we were also not dealing with Omicron which is much, much better at evading vaccines than other variants.

What are the reasons for it, one could speculate, but one must distinguish between speculation and facts.
Here are some plausible reasons:

natural immunity is superior to vaccines for omicron and unvaccinated people had higher chance of catching COVID with previous variants than vaccinated people https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.05.22268782v1.full.pdf
vaccinated are more likely to be in frontline jobs
vaccinated are more likely to be careless (although I suggest it should be opposite since unvaccinated are gathering at homes)

It is probably a combination of all of those and multiple of other factors that we haven't considered yet.
The data is clear though - vaccinated have been getting infected more in recent weeks than unvaccinated.
That's not a suggestion - that's a fact


----------



## james4beach

BC's Provincial Health Officer said the following in yesterday's update (around 18 mins) about omicron seen in BC

The onset of illness is very short, about 3 days after exposure.
The illness is mostly mild if you're vaccinated and tends to go away within 3 to 5 days.
If you have mild illness and you're vaccinated, stay home and away from others for 5 days.
You must continue to wear a mask, but you can go about your business if you're feeling better
and have no fever and no symptoms.


----------



## kcowan2000

cainvest said:


> Maybe you shouldn't just pick on the obese and smokers ... ban aclohol, driving at speeds above 30 km/h, make flu shots manditory ... the list could go on for a while I think.


My friend had double carpal tunnel operations and I told him this was self-inflicted just like other optional dangerous behaviours.


----------



## Spudd

My theory on the higher rate of omicron among vaccinated people is that we are testing a higher proportion of the vaccinated community than the unvaccinated. Firstly, health-care workers are vastly more vaccinated than not, and they get tested regularly. At my mom's long-term care home, they test all the workers twice a week, whether symptomatic or not. Secondly, those who are unvaccinated due to conspiracy theories are unlikely to go for a test unless they are very ill. I have heard conspiracies circulating that tests are giving people covid. LOL.


----------



## sags

Past covid infection provides no immunity from Delta or Omicron.

ICU cases and deaths are primarily the unvaccinated people.


----------



## zinfit

Some work over time to dispute the obvious. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. I look at the provincial dashboards for Ontario, Quebec and Alberta and get a clear consistent picture. The unvaccinated are greatly over represented when it comes to hospitalization. It seems futile or delusional to deny this obvious reality.


----------



## Eder

Who is denying that? My graph was hard for you to read so read the same one but in pretty colors that damian posted above. In Ontario vaccinated people are now more likely to become infected than non vaccinated...strange but true. 
Theres a lot we don't know about covid or our vaccines. Having said that I'm in line for my 4th shot of Moderna in another 6 weeks.


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## damian13ster

Not strange at all. Makes perfect sense for reasons that were already discussed.

Vaccines are useless against infections
They are helpful in preventing hospitalizations to some degree
And they are helpful in preventing ICU cases in higher degree


----------



## damian13ster

Reporting in the media is disgraceful though.

Couple months ago:

Cases are xxxxx
Unvaccinated make up 70% (then 60, then 50) of the cases

Hospitalizations are xxxxx
Unvaccinated make up 80% (then 70, 60, 50, 40) 

ICU are xxxx
Unvaccinated make up 90% (then 70, 60, 50)

So first they stopped breaking up cases by vaccination status. Two weeks ago or so they stopped breaking down hospitalizations. Now they are stopping breaking down ICUs.

Sometimes they forget and use old template, so article is edited 10min later 

😅


----------



## sags

Who cares ?

The doctors tell us al we need to know. It is the unvaccinated who are getting intubated.

If you endlessly search the internet you will find data that shows everything and proves nothing.


----------



## sags

It is the unvaccinated idiots who are filling up the hospital beds and causing disruptions and delays for other patients.

Canadians are tired of listening to their whining bull ****. Get vaccinated or stay home when you get sick and can't breathe.


----------



## OptsyEagle

damian13ster said:


> Reporting in the media is disgraceful though.
> 
> Couple months ago:
> 
> Cases are xxxxx
> Unvaccinated make up 70% (then 60, then 50) of the cases
> 
> Hospitalizations are xxxxx
> Unvaccinated make up 80% (then 70, 60, 50, 40)
> 
> ICU are xxxx
> Unvaccinated make up 90% (then 70, 60, 50)
> 
> So first they stopped breaking up cases by vaccination status. Two weeks ago or so they stopped breaking down hospitalizations. Now they are stopping breaking down ICUs.
> 
> Sometimes they forget and use old template, so article is edited 10min later
> 
> 😅


Forget looking at the data. The case data is totally useless. The rest of the data is almost useless. It leads to this type of nonsense I am seeing here:

That vaccinated people are more likely to get covid then unvaccinated. Come on? Does anyone actually believe that? The only two things that will make the data show that, which it does, is this:
1) If vaccinated people are getting tested more often per 100,000 then unvaccinated. I suspect there is no way to know for sure.
2) Vaccinated are socializing more then non-vaccinated. I suspect over Christmas that was also probably the case. Again, no way to prove it.

Other data, like hospitalizations and ICUs requires almost a PhD in math to come up with the right conclusions now, since the vaccinated are so dominating the population. It requires more then just basic numbers to know what is truly going on. It may seem simple when you look at a graph but most graphs these days can be very misleading due to this huge difference in populations. Not just the number of vaccinated to unvaccinated, but the fact that vaccinations are even more dominant in the older age groups, leaving too few of the unvaccinated to make a proper comparison. In Ontario there is less then 2% of the population of citizens age 50 or older who have remained unvaccinated. You just can't graph a comparison with that. Too many stats and charts then throw in the unvaccinated, who are age 49 or younger, and you end up with complete noise, not information. Then we can start to add the co-morbidity and immune compromised, mostly all vaccinated, and the noise gets louder and louder.

We know this:

1) Vaccines saves lives and seriously reduce the severity of outcomes.
2) Vaccines don't do much to prevent infection after about 6 to 8 weeks from last dose.
3) Omicron is much more infectious then the other variants but thankfully more mild.
4) Omicron is almost completely benign to the fully vaccinated person with no co-morbidities.
5) When one superimposes the higher infection rate of Omicron with the lower severity of Omicron, the result is a more dangerous virus to the non-vaccinated.
6) Since vaccination the pandemic has changed from a risk of death to a risk of our hospitals being overwhelmed and losing their ability to function.
7) Due to Omicron, and the issues mentioned above the hospital problem has also changed. Previously our hospitals mainly struggled with the large number of unvaccinated. Since there are not that many unvaccinated people, age 50 or older left, that group has reduced their level of burden.

The hospital problem has now changed to incorporate:
a) The remaining unvaccinated people age 50 or older. *These people are more of the ICU problem* within the hospitalization problem.
b) The very high infection rate of omicron is spreading too quickly to the extremely large number of vaccinated citizens, that have immune and co-morbidity issues.
c) The high infection rate of omicron is now proving to be too difficult to control, within the hospital setting, causing too many staff members to test positive, creating staff shortages, and probably infecting non-covid patients and turning them into covid patients.

The above is where we are.


----------



## zinfit

OptsyEagle said:


> Forget looking at the data. The case data is totally useless. The rest of the data is almost useless. The two levels of nonsense I am seeing here is:
> 
> 1) Vaccinated are more likely to get covid then unvaccinated. Come on? Does anyone actually believe that? The only two things that will make the data show that, which it does, is if vaccinated people are getting tested more often per 100,000 then unvaccinated. I suspect they are but again, no way to know for sure.
> 2) Vaccinated are socializing more then non-vaccinated. I suspect over Christmas that was also probably the case. Again, no way to prove it.
> 
> The rest of data, like hospitalizations and ICUs requires almost a PhD in math to come up with the right conclusions now, since the vaccinated are so dominating the population. It requires more then just basic numbers to know what is truly going on. It may seem simple when you look at a graph but most graphs these days can be very misleading due to this huge difference in populations. Not just the number of vaccinated to unvaccinated, but the fact that vaccinations are even more dominant in the older age groups, leaving too few of the unvaccinated to make a proper comparison. In Ontario there is less then 2% of the population of citizens age 50 or older who have remained unvaccinated. You just can't graph a comparison with that, well enough. Too many stats then throw in the unvaccinated who are age 49 or younger, and you end up with complete noise, not information. Then we can start to add the co-morbidity and immune compromised, again mostly all vaccinated, and the noise gets louder and louder.
> 
> We know this:
> 
> 1) Vaccines saves lives and seriously reduce the severity of outcomes.
> 2) Vaccines don't do much to prevent infection after about 6 to 8 weeks from last dose.
> 3) Omicron is much more infectious then the other variants but thankfully more mild.
> 4) Omicron is almost completely benign to the fully vaccinated person with no co-morbidities.
> 5) When one superimposes the higher infection rate of Omicron with the lower severity of Omicron, the result is a more dangerous virus to the non-vaccinated.
> 6) Since vaccination the pandemic has changed from a risk of death to simply a risk of our hospitals being overwhelmed and losing their ability to function.
> 7) Due to Omicron, and the issues mentioned above the hospital problem has also changed. Previously our hospitals mainly struggled with the large number of unvaccinated. Since there are not that many unvaccinated people, age 50 or older left, that group has reduced their level of burden.
> 
> The hospital problem has now changed to incorporate:
> a) The remaining unvaccinated people age 50 or older. *These people are more of the ICU problem* within the hospitalization problem.
> b) The very high infection rate of omicron is spreading too quickly to the extremely large number of vaccinated citizens, that have immune and co-morbidity issues.
> c) The high infection rate of omicron is now proving to be too difficult to control, within the hospital setting, causing too many staff members to test positive, creating staff shortages, and probably infecting non-covid patients and turning them into covid patients.
> 
> The above is where we are.


Excellent summary. . It is interesting how some will look through a pile of data to find an irrelevant nitpicky diversion. It's sometimes called not seeing the forrest for the trees.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

In the provincial update, there were 59 inpatient hospitalizations from a COVID-19 related illness, 36 incidental, asymptomatic infections and 11 haven't yet been determined.
In ICUs, 10 are related to COVID-19, two are incidental and one hasn't been determined. 
There were no new deaths reported Sunday.
There were also 1,099 new cases reported.
Provincial government officials said *Saskatchewan would be using hospitalizations as the key metric to implement new public health measures rather than case counts.*


----------



## zinfit

Ukrainiandude said:


> In the provincial update, there were 59 inpatient hospitalizations from a COVID-19 related illness, 36 incidental, asymptomatic infections and 11 haven't yet been determined.
> In ICUs, 10 are related to COVID-19, two are incidental and one hasn't been determined.
> There were no new deaths reported Sunday.
> There were also 1,099 new cases reported.
> Provincial government officials said *Saskatchewan would be using hospitalizations as the key metric to implement new public health measures rather than case counts.*


The last sentence makes sense. Hospitalizations should be the basis of decisions and policy..


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> The last sentence makes sense. Hospitalizations should be the basis of decisions and policy..


Yes.. but it is a lagging indicator, by the time hospitals are full, there are a number of people who aren't yet "hospital sick".
So we have to react BEFORE the hospitals hit capacity, and across much of Canada we're getting pretty close, particularly if the staffing issues seen elsewhere show up.

The reason for tracking cases was it's one of the earliest indicators that will predict eventual hospital/ICU requirements.


----------



## OptsyEagle

React and do what?


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Yes.. but it is a lagging indicator, by the time hospitals are full, there are a number of people who aren't yet "hospital sick".
> So we have to react BEFORE the hospitals hit capacity, and across much of Canada we're getting pretty close, particularly if the staffing issues seen elsewhere show up.
> 
> The reason for tracking cases was it's one of the earliest indicators that will predict eventual hospital/ICU requirements.


since a large number of healthcare workers have had Omnicron there might be a counter balance. not sure if the restrictions and controls will limit this virus. I guess politicians must appear as if they are doing something. May-be we could be creating some field hospitals for the anti-vaxxers and have it fully stocked with invermechin and staffed with veterinarians.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> In Ontario there is less then 2% of the population of citizens age 50 or older who have remained unvaccinated. You just can't graph a comparison with tha


Exactly. These comparisons have become very tricky to make.

The last time I looked at the data, among BC's population people who are actually vulnerable to covid (roughly anyone over 30) the vaccination rate was something like 95%. And I'm sure it's higher now.

Among adults, the ones susceptible to serious illness, there is only a TINY number of unvaccinated remaining in Canada. Virtually every adult is vaccinated at this point.

But I do think we have a national problem with overconfident vaccinated people. This was very apparent in December where people were socializing and pretty much going crazy. Everywhere I looked, bars and restaurants were packed, gyms were packed with maskless people, etc. These are all environments that require vaccination, and the vaccinated people became overconfident and were being reckless.

When I walked downtown and looked into office buildings, I saw large gatherings of employees doing meetings, having parties, etc. Friends were having large gatherings and people thought it was OK to just hang out indoors without masks. *This is how omicron has spread and it's why we're here now.*


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> I am not supporting that idea at all. Just providing facts.
> Previously we were also not dealing with Omicron which is much, much better at evading vaccines than other variants.
> 
> What are the reasons for it, one could speculate, but one must distinguish between speculation and facts.
> Here are some plausible reasons:
> 
> natural immunity is superior to vaccines for omicron and unvaccinated people had higher chance of catching COVID with previous variants than vaccinated people https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.05.22268782v1.full.pdf
> vaccinated are more likely to be in frontline jobs
> vaccinated are more likely to be careless (although I suggest it should be opposite since unvaccinated are gathering at homes)
> 
> It is probably a combination of all of those and multiple of other factors that we haven't considered yet.
> The data is clear though - vaccinated have been getting infected more in recent weeks than unvaccinated.
> That's not a suggestion - that's a fact


There's a high chance of Omicron reinfection if you weren't aware. Even your pre-print paper says 56% against Omicron.
And the first Omicron death in US, was a reinfected unvaccinated person: First Omicron Death in U.S. Was Reinfection
As for infection being better, a pre-print from England suggests a BioNTech (Pfizer) booster can provide 75.5% effectiveness against Omicron.

It may be a fact that more vaccinated are getting Omicron at higher rates; however, it's not a fact that vaccines are making people susceptible to covid. That's a significant difference.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> but it is a lagging indicator, by the time hospitals are full, there are a number of people who aren't yet "hospital sick".


Saskatchewan had record numbers of new cases last month, yet the ICU numbers are declining.


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> Saskatchewan had record numbers of new cases last month, yet the ICU numbers are declining.


Ontario is having a massive surge in cases, and both hospitalizations and ICU numbers are rising. The ICU trend in Ontario is up at the moment.

The omicron spread in SK is also roughly 2 weeks behind Ontario. The provinces leading this wave are Ontario and Quebec, and both of those are seeing ICU numbers rising rapidly.

I hope it turns around, but that doesn't look like covid is harmless.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> Ontario is having a massive surge in cases, and both hospitalizations and ICU numbers are rising.


However, the number of people hospitalized in Ontario with COVID-19dropped slightly on Sunday, as the virus continues to spread widely across the province.

The data said 2,419 people are currently in Ontario hospitals after contracting the novel coronavirus, a drop of 175 since Saturday.


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> The data said 2,419 people are currently in Ontario hospitals after contracting the novel coronavirus, a drop of 175 since Saturday.


Doesn't the trend in the ICU concern you?

We know that case numbers are useless. Hospitalization numbers are more useful, but we still have a classification problem. ICU is even more reliable because a guy with a broken foot doesn't end up in the ICU.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> ICU


 Okay, we have a vaccine now, and over 85% received 1-3 doses. Wearing masks, curfews, gathering restrictions etc. Where are we standing compared to the last January, when we had none of these.

Hospitalizations related to COVID-19 continued to increase Saturday, with Quebec recording 245 patients in intensive care, a record number since the pandemic began in March, 2020.

The previous high was 231 ICU stays on Jan. 14 of last year.

Funny isn’t it. Zero progress.


----------



## damian13ster

OptsyEagle said:


> Forget looking at the data. The case data is totally useless. The rest of the data is almost useless. It leads to this type of nonsense I am seeing here:
> 
> *That vaccinated people are more likely to get covid then unvaccinated. Come on? Does anyone actually believe that? * The only two things that will make the data show that, which it does, is this:
> 1) If vaccinated people are getting tested more often per 100,000 then unvaccinated. I suspect there is no way to know for sure.
> 2) Vaccinated are socializing more then non-vaccinated. I suspect over Christmas that was also probably the case. Again, no way to prove it.
> 
> Other data, like hospitalizations and ICUs requires almost a PhD in math to come up with the right conclusions now, since the vaccinated are so dominating the population. It requires more then just basic numbers to know what is truly going on. It may seem simple when you look at a graph but most graphs these days can be very misleading due to this huge difference in populations. Not just the number of vaccinated to unvaccinated, but the fact that vaccinations are even more dominant in the older age groups, leaving too few of the unvaccinated to make a proper comparison. In Ontario there is less then 2% of the population of citizens age 50 or older who have remained unvaccinated. You just can't graph a comparison with that. Too many stats and charts then throw in the unvaccinated, who are age 49 or younger, and you end up with complete noise, not information. Then we can start to add the co-morbidity and immune compromised, mostly all vaccinated, and the noise gets louder and louder.
> 
> We know this:
> 
> 1) Vaccines saves lives and seriously reduce the severity of outcomes.
> 2) Vaccines don't do much to prevent infection after about 6 to 8 weeks from last dose.
> 3) Omicron is much more infectious then the other variants but thankfully more mild.
> 4) Omicron is almost completely benign to the fully vaccinated person with no co-morbidities.
> 5) When one superimposes the higher infection rate of Omicron with the lower severity of Omicron, the result is a more dangerous virus to the non-vaccinated.
> 6) Since vaccination the pandemic has changed from a risk of death to a risk of our hospitals being overwhelmed and losing their ability to function.
> 7) Due to Omicron, and the issues mentioned above the hospital problem has also changed. Previously our hospitals mainly struggled with the large number of unvaccinated. Since there are not that many unvaccinated people, age 50 or older left, that group has reduced their level of burden.
> 
> The hospital problem has now changed to incorporate:
> a) The remaining unvaccinated people age 50 or older. *These people are more of the ICU problem* within the hospitalization problem.
> b) The very high infection rate of omicron is spreading too quickly to the extremely large number of vaccinated citizens, that have immune and co-morbidity issues.
> c) The high infection rate of omicron is now proving to be too difficult to control, within the hospital setting, causing too many staff members to test positive, creating staff shortages, and probably infecting non-covid patients and turning them into covid patients.
> 
> The above is where we are.



Why would we discuss beliefs? Beliefs are irrational, unlikely to change, illogical, and private.
Rather discuss facts.
The response we got here every single time politically appointed health officials were getting it completely wrong was 'science is changing', yet now that science has changed, the variant has changed, and vaccine effectiveness have changed you are not open minded enough to acknowledge the change?

The facts are that vaccinated people are getting infected at higher rate than unvaccinated people.
There is no breakdown between amount of tests of vaccinated vs unvaccinated; however, we do know that in order to get PCR test nowadays you need to be symptomatic. Therefore it is extremely likely that vast majority of tested people are symptomatic. Whether there is more vaccinated than unvaccinated in that group? - don't know.

All we know is
1. Infection rate among vaccinated is higher than unvaccinated
2. You can't make a straight up comparison using the plots. However, the vaccination rate among older population isn't much higher than it was during Delta outbreak. You can do comparisons to that and get relative numbers, not absolute.
Therefore you can deduce that protection from hospitalization with Omicron is much lower than protection from hospitalization with Delta. By how much and what exactly it is? We don't know. It is undeniably above 0 and significantly lower than with Delta
3. Your conclusion of 'more dangerous to the unvaccinated' is your belief. There is no data to prove that at all.
4. Yep, infected staff is sent to hospitals on purpose. You know, because they chased away thousands of perfectly healthy and capable staff - looks like a solid health policy....


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> There's a high chance of Omicron reinfection if you weren't aware. Even your pre-print paper says 56% against Omicron.
> And the first Omicron death in US, was a reinfected unvaccinated person: First Omicron Death in U.S. Was Reinfection
> As for infection being better, a pre-print from England suggests a BioNTech (Pfizer) booster can provide 75.5% effectiveness against Omicron.
> 
> It may be a fact that more vaccinated are getting Omicron at higher rates; however, it's not a fact that vaccines are making people susceptible to covid. That's a significant difference.


Don't believe anyone is claiming vaccines are making people susceptible to COVID.
In the Qatar study posted before it was shown that previous infection provides 56% protection against infection and 95% protection against hospitalization.








Protection afforded by prior infection against SARS-CoV-2 reinfection with the Omicron variant


BACKGROUND Natural SARS-CoV-2 infection elicits strong protection against reinfection with the Alpha (B.1.1.7), Beta (B.1.351), and Delta (B.1.617.2) variants. However, the Omicron (B.1.1.529) variant harbors multiple mutations that can mediate immune evasion. We estimated effectiveness of prior...




www.medrxiv.org





The caveat: that protection is lasting. Look at the timelines of previous infections they looked at.
The number you have provided is exactly 2 weeks after the booster. Then after 10 weeks it drops off significantly.
Unless you mandate boosters every 3 months, there is zero scientific basis to human right abuse of people with previous infections.


----------



## james4beach

Heads up to everyone that restaurants are not the "safe" place everyone seems to assume they are.

All of Hong Kong's covid spread traced back to an original spread event: a flight crew member went to a restaurant for lunch. That's all it took.

I've been to restaurants only two times during the pandemic, and will only go when case numbers are very low. I think it's insane to go to an indoor restaurant or cafe right now... I don't know why people do this.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> However, the number of people hospitalized in Ontario with COVID-19dropped slightly on Sunday, as the virus continues to spread widely across the province.
> 
> The data said 2,419 people are currently in Ontario hospitals after contracting the novel coronavirus, a drop of 175 since Saturday.


Maybe, remember hospital reporting on Sundays is known to be wrong.

Expect a bigger adjustment on Monday.
There is a reason they're running on 7 day averages.


----------



## zinfit

Heard Dr Scott Gottlieb on CNBC this morning. He says new cases have peaked and have started declining. Down 10% over the weekend. Its good news . The bad news is hospitalizations are still rising. By the end of the month this omnicron surge should be in full retreat on all fronts.


----------



## Beaver101

Toronto paramedic union issues warning after no ambulances were available to respond to life-threatening call

COVID hospitalizations near or reach record highs in several provinces

_



The Canadian Press
Published Monday, January 10, 2022 5:22AM EST
COVID-19 cases are threatening to overwhelm hospitals in several parts of Canada, with hospitalizations nearing or reaching record highs in Quebec, Ontario, and New Brunswick.

Former CEO of the University Health Network and Ontario deputy health minister Dr. Bob Bell says every Western country dealing with COVID's fast spreading Omicron variant has a stressed hospital system right now. But he says Canada will pursue lockdowns and restrictions sooner than places such as the United States because it has a lower tolerance for measures like death.

Meanwhile, despite the concerns of both parents and children over surging COVID cases, students in Alberta are headed back to class today.

Education Minister Adriana LaGrange has promised thousands of test kits will be delivered to students and parents over the next few days. However, Edmonton Public Schools and the Alberta Teachers' Association have said there are still kids who won't get them until days after they return to classes, which could further exacerbate the lightning spread of Omicron cases.

In Quebec, those aged 40 and over can now book appointments for a third dose of a COVID-19 vaccine - a day after the province set an all-time high of 2,436 hospitalizations linked to coronavirus infections.

Also starting today, staff at National Microbiology Laboratory facilities across the country are being asked to work from home if possible.
A statement from the Public Health Agency of Canada says the move is aimed at protecting the essential workforce conducting critical on-site diagnostic and lab research.

The work from home order covers staff at the lab sites in Winnipeg, Guelph, Ont., Saint-Hyacinthe, Que. and Lethbridge, Alta

Click to expand...

 ... _looks like the kids in Alberta are gonna to be the guinea pigs with the back-in-schools-learning (today, wow).


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Heads up to everyone that restaurants are not the "safe" place everyone seems to assume they are.
> 
> All of Hong Kong's covid spread traced back to an original spread event: a flight crew member went to a restaurant for lunch. That's all it took.
> 
> I've been to restaurants only two times during the pandemic, and will only go when case numbers are very low. I think it's insane to go to an indoor restaurant or cafe right now... I don't know why people do this.


 ... it's logical that all it takes is 1 individual to infect another which then the spread grows exponentially.

I think this situation could have been avoided by not allow any gatherings or in-dining at all (particularly during an explosive spread time like we're having now in Toronto which is kinda late, IMO). Restaurants can keep open (though not sure afloat for how long) by having take-outs just like supermarkets opened as an essential service. Also, throw in the capacity limits for good measures.

If the numbers don't come down here in TO as with hospitalisations, a 
lockdown is inevitable though I think Quebec's idea of a curfew would help first.


----------



## OptsyEagle

deleted


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> Don't believe anyone is claiming vaccines are making people susceptible to COVID.
> In the Qatar study posted before it was shown that previous infection provides 56% protection against infection and 95% protection against hospitalization.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Protection afforded by prior infection against SARS-CoV-2 reinfection with the Omicron variant
> 
> 
> BACKGROUND Natural SARS-CoV-2 infection elicits strong protection against reinfection with the Alpha (B.1.1.7), Beta (B.1.351), and Delta (B.1.617.2) variants. However, the Omicron (B.1.1.529) variant harbors multiple mutations that can mediate immune evasion. We estimated effectiveness of prior...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medrxiv.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The caveat: that protection is lasting. Look at the timelines of previous infections they looked at.
> The number you have provided is exactly 2 weeks after the booster. Then after 10 weeks it drops off significantly.
> Unless you mandate boosters every 3 months, there is zero scientific basis to human right abuse of people with previous infections.


Wow, really? This whole tangent started with that assertion.



Eder said:


> According to data being fully vaxed now makes people more susceptible to infection. We need to stick to truthful narrative, people resisting vaccines are looking for BS statements to justify their case.


So, here are a couple of points from the study you should note:

_Qatar has unusually young, diverse demographics, in that only 9% of its residents are ≥50 years of age, and 89% are expatriates from over 150 countries.8,9 Nearly all individuals were vaccinated in Qatar, however, vaccinations performed elsewhere were still recorded in the health system at the port of entry upon arrival to Qatar per country requirements._

and

_With the young population of Qatar, our findings may not be generalizable to other countries where elderly citizens constitute a larger proportion of the total population._

Given that we're talking about a population that skews to the young, it's hard to generalize to other countries like Canada where we have a much older population.


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> Toronto paramedic union issues warning after no ambulances were available to respond to life-threatening call
> 
> COVID hospitalizations near or reach record highs in several provinces
> 
> _ ... _looks like the kids in Alberta are gonna to be the guinea pigs with the back-in-schools-learning (today, wow).


THey have a lot of medical experts who would agree. Yes if a child has high risk issues they should learn at home.If there are high risk adults in their homes they should learn at home. Please note that the risk from Omnicron isn't much different then the common cold. The school closures has been a big negative for learning, social development and mental health.


----------



## sags

Opening the schools is the easy part. Keeping them open is the hard part. We shall see how it goes.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> Wow, really? This whole tangent started with that assertion.
> 
> 
> 
> So, here are a couple of points from the study you should note:
> 
> _Qatar has unusually young, diverse demographics, in that only 9% of its residents are ≥50 years of age, and 89% are expatriates from over 150 countries.8,9 Nearly all individuals were vaccinated in Qatar, however, vaccinations performed elsewhere were still recorded in the health system at the port of entry upon arrival to Qatar per country requirements._
> 
> and
> 
> _With the young population of Qatar, our findings may not be generalizable to other countries where elderly citizens constitute a larger proportion of the total population._
> 
> Given that we're talking about a population that skews to the young, it's hard to generalize to other countries like Canada where we have a much older population.


For hospitalization protection? Yes. For infection protection? No.


----------



## damian13ster

Here is how restrictions affect Omicron:


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> For hospitalization protection? Yes. For infection protection? No.


There's also one other factor that is being overlooked. There's a survivor bias issue where someone who had contracted covid and survived to have some protection. It excludes the people who don't survive and obviously have no protection since they died. Despite people complaining that vaccines may cause some intermittent issues, getting the vaccine is much safer than getting covid.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> There's also one other factor that is being overlooked. There's a survivor bias issue where someone who had contracted covid and survived to have some protection. It excludes the people who don't survive and obviously have no protection since they died. Despite people complaining that vaccines may cause some intermittent issues, getting the vaccine is much safer than getting covid.


That is silly. The death rate is so low it is not nearly sufficient to have any effect on the study. Survivor's bias is not affecting the results and conclusions


The risk is not the same for people of various ages, genders, and health statuses, yet noone acknowledges that.
You are 12x more likely per NHS to land in hospital with heart issues due to Moderna vaccine than due to COVID. Other vaccines had lower risks
That number is only true for males under 40 though. For everyone under 40 (males and females together), it was something like 2x. For all age groups, it was 0.96 times.
Risks are completely different for each individual and the decision should be left to the individual and to the doctor knowing the individual's history. Have a person in family with complicated health status. Doctor basically yelled at her not to take the vaccine because she has massive risk of cardiological problems. The doctor herself is fully vaccinated so not a skeptic by any means, simply knows medical history of the patient and is aware that the patient is at massive risk of adverse reaction.
The problem? In this fucked up country doctors aren't allowed to make those decisions without risking prosecution and having their license revoked. They finally managed to get around that, as when the person communicated to the doctor that she has to take it otherwise will be fired and lose means to live, doctor under hippocratic oath and her conscience could not allow the patient to take the shot.
Although those situations are extremely rare and for vast majority of society getting vaccinated is good choice, removing that choice from patient and their doctor is pure evil that was not seen since the Nazis


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> Heads up to everyone that restaurants are not the "safe" place everyone seems to assume they are.
> 
> All of Hong Kong's covid spread traced back to an original spread event: a flight crew member went to a restaurant for lunch. That's all it took.
> 
> I've been to restaurants only two times during the pandemic, and will only go when case numbers are very low. I think it's insane to go to an indoor restaurant or cafe right now... I don't know why people do this.


That's not what the article states that restaurants aren't safe. That was the most minor point out of everything else in the article. The crew member who was infected went a restaurant. Is it restaurants that are unsafe, perhaps gatherings, perhaps travel, perhaps flight crew. If the crew member went to their relatives house, one could argue that their relatives are unsafe. The fact is, spread is every where right now, there is no 'safe' place, unless you choose to stay at home all the time. 

I have been to restaurant many times since this started. I take all the precautions, I check the restaurants safety precautions (do they still distance the tables, are their barriers, etc). I even bring my own wipes in case I have to use the bathroom, so their door and sink handles get a disinfecting if I go. I won't go if it's crowded. I think this far into the pandemic, people need to assume that it's everywhere, and how they are going to try and minimize risks.


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> Toronto paramedic union issues warning after no ambulances were available to respond to life-threatening call
> 
> COVID hospitalizations near or reach record highs in several provinces
> 
> _ ... _looks like the kids in Alberta are gonna to be the guinea pigs with the back-in-schools-learning (today, wow).


I have one kid that is staying home, because she had a little bit of sore throat yesterday, my other is back. I rapid tested both of them this morning, and they are negative. I have sent my youngest with N95 masks, sanitizer. Let's see how this goes. 

I know the N95 masks and rapid test are supposed to sent home with the kids hopefully by the end of the week. However, this week will be a little bit of test. My kid is really motivated to not get infected as she is in competition season. We will see how this goes.


----------



## OptsyEagle

damian13ster said:


> Here is how restrictions affect Omicron:
> 
> View attachment 22651


As I have stated, most data now is almost useless and seems to be published more for its shocking effect then for anything else. Unless you can back out the effect of Xmas on that chart it is not worth the paper it was printed on. It may very well just be telling us that people responded more to Xmas then to restrictions. It tells us nothing about restrictions during non-festive seasons. Plus it is in linear form and infections today are exponential. I think I also mentioned one might need a PhD in math to figure anything out from all the noise being published today.

All that said, by the time one backs out everything that effects everything one will eventually be left with nothing. As I said, the data today is almost useless. Eventually one is going to have to start using common sense. The so called science has become a complete blur.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> That is silly. The death rate is so low it is not nearly sufficient to have any effect on the study. Survivor's bias is not affecting the results and conclusions


Look at the numbers that they are using. The whole point is showing the protection based on previous infection. There were a lot more people being hospitalized than those previously infected. But the biggest factors are that they dealt with a population with few co-morbidity and a younger population.

But sure, why not have unvaccinated 50+ year olds to get covid to get their immunity and see how that goes for you.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> Look at the numbers that they are using. The whole point is showing the protection based on previous infection. There were a lot more people being hospitalized than those previously infected. But the biggest factors are that they dealt with a population with few co-morbidity and a younger population.
> 
> But sure, why not have unvaccinated 50+ year olds to get covid to get their immunity and see how that goes for you.


I am not suggesting unvaccinated 50+ year olds. I believe vast majority if not all from that group should be vaccinated. And they are. You know why the study mostly shows result for younger people? Because it is mostly younger people who are unvaccinated. 
The study shows that natural immunity is long-lasting and superior to the protection provided by vaccine from infection (unless you mandate boosters every 10 weeks that is). Why ignore the science on that. 
Same rights for people with previous infection as with vaccination makes scientific sense. They have equal or better protection depending on time from the 3rd dose than the vaccinated do.
In case of people who had no previous infection or vaccination, the science shows they are at higher risk of infection.


----------



## cainvest

In MB, hospitalizations continue to climb at a fair pace and ICU rate looks to be increasing a little. Also, there are initial indications the death rate is starting to increase now.


----------



## sags

In our city the hospital is nearing maximum capacity and 4 people died of covid yesterday.

The virus isn't as benign as some people say it is.


----------



## OptsyEagle

So attempting to give this some kind of rational thought, using what we know and remembering the world we actually live in and not the dream world that might be a lot better, what does everyone think we should do about this problem?

Please keep the following points in mind if you have any good ideas:

1) We have a virus that spreads like wildfire.
2) Vaccination is not going to stop it. It only gives vital health protection from it.
3) The virus is still dangerous to quite a few people causing issues with them and our hospitals.


----------



## cainvest

Just keep doing what we have been doing?


----------



## Beaver101

cainvest said:


> Just keep doing what we have been doing?


 ... not trying to be divisive here but who is the "we"?


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> So attempting to give this some kind of rational thought, using what we know and remembering the world we actually live in and not the dream world that might be a lot better, what does everyone think we should do about this problem?
> 
> Please keep the following points in mind if you have any good ideas:
> 
> 1) We have a virus that spreads like wildfire.
> 2) Vaccination is not going to stop it. It only gives vital health protection from it.
> 3) The virus is still dangerous to quite a few people causing issues with them and our hospitals.


 ... "resolve" problem 1) (the main one) above and the rest of the problems (hospitalisations, vaccination requirements, etc.) will take care of itself. And I don't see humans resolving it anytime soon, hence, the pandemic is going to drag.


----------



## cainvest

Beaver101 said:


> ... not trying to be divisive here but who is the "we"?


We -> The Governments (fed, prov) and the Canadian people.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Just keep doing what we have been doing?


That is kind of what I was thinking. At least for a little while.

Obviously we have a little time here but it will be interesting what the eventual decisions are. The way I see it is the current plan is something like it has always been. Tighten restrictions to get the eminent threat down, then loosen restrictions, allow the threat to come back, tighten restrictions, repeat it all again.

That was OK while we were waiting for vaccines but I am not sure how many repeat cycles of the above the younger, healthier, fully vaccinated citizens are going to accept. I know I am tiring of it. If we can't fix the virus problem and we can't increase hospital capacity, at some point in time, we are going to have to open things up, let the vulnerable lock down themselves, if they so choose, and let the hospital marbles fall where they fall. Rip the bandaid off quickly so to speak.

Not sure that will fix it either, but I am pretty sure the cycle I mentioned above is not going to work.


----------



## Beaver101

cainvest said:


> We -> The Governments (fed, prov) and the Canadian people.


 ... yep, and the "we" are all over the map with respect to "a strategy". 

I think the phrase of "we're all in it together" needs to be updated to reflect the realistic duration of this pandemic for the years to come.


----------



## Money172375

Not sure why more hasn’t been done to improve capacity since this started.

ontario provincial elections are this year…..hoping health care is the #1 issue. 

after SARS and H1N1…….and every “expert” predicting a pandemic would happen at some point, it’s disappointing we can’t improve on this.

I recall an idea about “medical reservists”……..similar to the military reserves. Train people for a couple of years, get them qualified in basic medicine. Retrain every 2 years for a few weeks…go back to your regular job. Seems an idea with merit.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> That is kind of what I was thinking. At least for a little while.
> 
> Obviously we have a little time here but it will be interesting what the eventual decisions are. The way I see it is the current plan is something like it has always been. Tighten restrictions to get the eminent threat down, then loosen restrictions, allow the threat to come back, tighten restrictions, repeat it all again.
> 
> That was OK while we were waiting for vaccines but I am not sure how many repeat cycles of the above the younger, healthier, fully vaccinated citizens are going to accept. I know I am tiring of it. If we can't fix the virus problem and we can't increase hospital capacity, at some point in time, we are going to have to open things up, let the vulnerable lock down themselves, if they so choose, and let the hospital marbles fall where they fall. Rip the bandaid off quickly so to speak.
> 
> Not sure that will fix it either, but I am pretty sure the cycle I mentioned above is not going to work.


 ... I say, let the chips be where they may fall. 

I think for the most part, CMF participators on this thread (including the anti-vaxxers, the wannebees/regretters/supporters/enablers) are doing something right.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Not sure why more hasn’t been done to improve capacity since this started.
> 
> ontario provincial elections are this year…..hoping health care is the #1 issue.
> 
> after SARS and H1N1…….and every “expert” predicting a pandemic would happen at some point, it’s disappointing we can’t improve on this.
> 
> I recall an idea about “medical reservists”……..similar to the military reserves. Train people for a couple of years, get them qualified in basic medicine. Retrain every 2 years for a few weeks…go back to your regular job. Seems an idea with merit.


 ... $$$$ ... who's paying?


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> That is kind of what I was thinking. At least for a little while.
> 
> Obviously we have a little time here but it will be interesting what the eventual decisions are. The way I see it is the current plan is something like it has always been. Tighten restrictions to get the eminent threat down, then loosen restrictions, allow the threat to come back, tighten restrictions, repeat it all again.


Yes, that's pretty much it.



OptsyEagle said:


> That was OK while we were waiting for vaccines but I am not sure how many repeat cycles of the above the younger, healthier, fully vaccinated citizens are going to accept. I know I am tiring of it. If we can't fix the virus problem and we can't increase hospital capacity, at some point in time, we are going to have to open things up, let the vulnerable lock down themselves, if they so choose, and let the hospital marbles fall where they fall. Rip the bandaid off quickly so to speak.
> 
> Not sure that will fix it either, but I am pretty sure the cycle I mentioned above is not going to work.


I think almost everyone is tired of it, makes no difference to the virus unfortunately. It definitely pushes our needs for faster medical attention, for vaccines,treatments and care. Pretty sure the vaccine people are working at top speed for solutions as big money can be made there. For the care part, not sure how long it would take to increase capacity as I believe staffing would be the limiting factor which would take time to resolve.

In the past time solved similar problems ... until then we're in damage control.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ... $$$$ ... who's paying?


We are. Stop the handouts, build some hospitals, open everything up. I’d gladly pay higher taxes to prevent this mess we’re in.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> after SARS and H1N1…….and every “expert” predicting a pandemic would happen at some point, it’s disappointing we can’t improve on this.


Dr Tam is that expert, and she wrote a plan in 2006 how to deal with the next pandemic.

Then COVID happened, they shipped our PPE to China and didn't follow the plan.


----------



## OptsyEagle

With the Delta virus we had a specific culprit to point to in order to fix the hospital problem. The unvaccinated...and they were the problem. Specifically the unvaccinated age 50 or older. With Omicron, that is not the case anymore. If we look at the Covid hospital numbers today, in Ontario right now over 75% of them are vaccinated citizens. That is not to say the vaccine is not working to save lives and prevent hospitalizations. It is working quite well, but as I said above, it appears it is not going to fix the entire problem and get us out of this mess. We simply have too many overly-vulnerable people in our society. We can vaccinate every single one of us with 2, 3, 4, or more doses and we are still going to have covid.

To be specific, covid-19 toppling our hospitals.

Lockdowns only delay this matter, they cannot fix it. Vaccines might but not the stuff currently being shot into people's shoulders today. As has been stated, increasing hospital capacity is probably the best answer but that will take way too long. Most of the vulnerable people will either be saved or dead by then.

I don't have an answer either but I am getting tired of doing the same thing over again and hoping for different results.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> With the Delta virus we had a specific culprit to point to in order to fix the hospital problem. The unvaccinated...and they were the problem. Specifically the unvaccinated age 50 or older. With Omicron, that is not the case anymore. If we look at the Covid hospital numbers today, in Ontario right now over 75% of them are vaccinated citizens.


ICU is disproportionately unvaccinated, and with over 400, that's a problem.

That being said, blaming "the unvaccinated" is politically convenient.
Every good dictator needs an enemy.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> I am not suggesting unvaccinated 50+ year olds. I believe vast majority if not all from that group should be vaccinated. And they are. You know why the study mostly shows result for younger people? Because it is mostly younger people who are unvaccinated.
> The study shows that natural immunity is long-lasting and superior to the protection provided by vaccine from infection (unless you mandate boosters every 10 weeks that is). Why ignore the science on that.
> Same rights for people with previous infection as with vaccination makes scientific sense. They have equal or better protection depending on time from the 3rd dose than the vaccinated do.
> In case of people who had no previous infection or vaccination, the science shows they are at higher risk of infection.


Here's reality. Even if you feel that natural immunity is better, you need to put up with the numbers of unvaccinated people going to the hospital to get covid treatment. You can argue that it's only a small percentage, but a small percentage of a large number is still a lot of people. And some are going to die, sure, you can say only 104 people under the age of 30 died in all of Canada, but then again 858 spent some time in the ICU. https://health-infobase.canada.ca/s...ary-of-COVID-19-cases-in-Canada-Canada.ca.pdf

There's your side-effect of getting the "natural" immunity.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> Here's reality. Even if you feel that natural immunity is better, you need to put up with the numbers of unvaccinated people going to the hospital to get covid treatment. You can argue that it's only a small percentage, but a small percentage of a large number is still a lot of people. And some are going to die, sure, you can say only 104 people under the age of 30 died in all of Canada, but then again 858 spent some time in the ICU. https://health-infobase.canada.ca/s...ary-of-COVID-19-cases-in-Canada-Canada.ca.pdf
> 
> There's your side-effect of getting the "natural" immunity.
> View attachment 22652
> View attachment 22653


104 dead and 858 in ICU over 22 months are not numbers you shut down the country and break human rights over. 
Those numbers are in fact incredibly low and how can anyone support breaking human rights over them is beyond me.


----------



## bgc_fan

Money172375 said:


> We are. Stop the handouts, build some hospitals, open everything up. I’d gladly pay higher taxes to prevent this mess we’re in.


Isn't that the US philosophy? I think they're starting to see the same thing because even though they have a higher per capita resources in ICUs, their system is getting overrun. All their capacity did was delay the inevitable as they left everything open. 








Indiana ICU beds near capacity as hospital workers are quarantined


Hospitals are again dangerously low on bedspace in their intensive care units at the same time they’re dealing with a boom in COVID-19 cases.



www.thestarpress.com












Plano ICU Beds Are Nearly Full. Other North Texas Hospital Capacity Stats, How Much Is From COVID-19


The number of available intensive care unit (ICU) beds at Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital in Plano is zero. No beds available. And this is the growing case




localprofile.com





People don't like the CBC, but here's a piece on the different experiences in US and Canada. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/health-systems-canada-us-omicron-1.6308357
The main thing I would take away is the issue with lack of nurses, and the fact there is an artificial control on nurse and doctor supply in Canada. Is it a result of the system being public pay? Maybe, and maybe we need to re-evaluate the health system. Building infrastructure is something that would take a long time to bring about, so saying that we would have had them by now is foolish. At best case scenario, you're looking at a 10 year project before that can be done. For surges, you can put together field hospitals, the issue is finding the health care workers.

But hey, nothing like Bill 124 in Ontario and reducing nursing pay in Alberta to encourage nurses to stick around.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> 104 dead and 858 in ICU over 22 months are not numbers you shut down the country and break human rights over.
> Those numbers are in fact incredibly low and how can anyone support breaking human rights over them is beyond me.


And at that point, I'll start ignoring you again.


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> Lockdowns only delay this matter, they cannot fix it. Vaccines might but not the stuff currently being shot into people's shoulders today. As has been stated, increasing hospital capacity is probably the best answer but that will take way too long. Most of the vulnerable people will either be saved or dead by then.
> 
> I don't have an answer either but I am getting tired of doing the same thing over again and hoping for different results.


Lockdowns are a preventative measure only. That much is true. But even increasing hospital capacity isn't the cureall, if you don't have other public measures in place: vaccination programs, social distancing, etc. You only have to look to the US with a larger capacity and much higher covid death rate: U.S. is open as Canada shuts down. The difference? Their health care systems - BNN Bloomberg

On the other end of the spectrum is Australia with its opposite approach with lockdowns.

You may criticize the vaccines, but up until omicron, they were effective. Will the new omicron-targeted vaccines work better? Won't know until they come out. But it's pretty difficult to blame the manufacturers of the effectiveness of the vaccine when the virus appears to incorporate genetic sequences from the common cold and human genome: https://osf.io/f7txy/. That's not something that could have been foreseen at the onset.

But this reinforces the fact that unless there is a global push to deal with it, and ensure vaccines are made available to everyone, there's going to be a potential of mutations and similar cases happening in the future.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> ICU is disproportionately unvaccinated, and with over 400, that's a problem.
> 
> That being said, blaming "the unvaccinated" is politically convenient.
> Every good dictator needs an enemy.


I am not trying to blame anyone. I don't consider finding a culprit to a problem an actual end to a problem...and all I want to do is see this pandemic end. I also never said the unvaccinated are not contributing to the current problem. I said that even if we turn all the unvaccinated citizens into vaccinated citizens, we are still going to have a problem with the hospitals.

We need to focus on that. When they unvaccinated were the biggest part of the problem, the focus on them was well placed. It isn't as well placed anymore. That does not mean they should not do their duty and help us out by vaccinating, but we are going to need even more then that to get through this.


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> You may criticize the vaccines, but up until omicron, they were effective. Will the new omicron-targeted vaccines work better? Won't know until they come out. But it's pretty difficult to blame the manufacturers of the effectiveness of the vaccine when the virus appears to incorporate genetic sequences from the common cold and human genome: https://osf.io/f7txy/. That's not something that could have been foreseen at the onset.
> 
> But this reinforces the fact that unless there is a global push to deal with it, and ensure vaccines are made available to everyone, there's going to be a potential of mutations and similar cases happening in the future.


I did not criticize the vaccines. You just assumed it from what I did say and you should not do that. What I said was the current vaccines we have will not get us out of our hospital mess, even if we can get 100% of our population to take them.

That is the new problem that Omicron has brought us and the one we need to focus on.

By the way. Everyone lining up to take a 3rd and 4th dose of the current vaccine definitely takes away a lot of the ambition and urgency from of a drug manufacturer in their desire to develop a better one. Just saying!


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> I did not criticize the vaccines. You just assumed it from what I did say and you should not do that. What I said was the current vaccines we have will not get us out of our hospital mess, even if we can get 100% of our population to take them.
> 
> That is the new problem that Omicron has brought us and the one we need to focus on.
> 
> By the way. Everyone lining up to take a 3rd and 4th dose of the current vaccine definitely takes away a lot of the ambition and urgency from of a drug manufacturer in their desire to develop a better one. Just saying!


No, but you did imply that there was some fault with the original vaccines. But keep in mind that they are still effective in keeping people out of the ICU to some extent, otherwise you wouldn't see the unvaccinated represented in higher numbers. Also, those vaccinated in the ICU tend to be older with comorbidities which is a bit different demographic than the unvaccinated.
Both Pfizer and Moderna have been working on an Omicron as soon as word came out, but it is going to take time to develop and manufacture. Not to mention testing. Remember that Omicron has only been around for a month.
FWIW Pfizer CEO is saying March. Pfizer CEO says omicron vaccine will be ready in March


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> By the way. Everyone lining up to take a 3rd and 4th dose of the current vaccine definitely takes away a lot of the ambition and urgency from of a drug manufacturer in their desire to develop a better one. Just saying!


I doubt that.


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> No, but you did imply that there was some fault with the original vaccines. But keep in mind that they are still effective in keeping people out of the ICU to some extent, otherwise you wouldn't see the unvaccinated represented in higher numbers. Also, those vaccinated in the ICU tend to be older with comorbidities which is a bit different demographic than the unvaccinated.
> Both Pfizer and Moderna have been working on an Omicron as soon as word came out, but it is going to take time to develop and manufacture. Not to mention testing. Remember that Omicron has only been around for a month.
> FWIW Pfizer CEO is saying March. Pfizer CEO says omicron vaccine will be ready in March


You really have to open up your mind a little. Criticizing something does not imply complete failure. I am fully vaccinated and very happy to be protected from severe disease and death. That said, it would be nice to have something to end this pandemic. Why you take that as some kind of vaccine bashing is a problem you really need to deal with.

Thanks for the link about the Pfizer timeline on the Omicron vaccine. That is what I am talking about. A new solution that has a chance to work. As I said, the current juice is not going to end this pandemic. That should be obvious to everyone by now no matter how much you want the current vaccines to be perfect. Let's hope this new stuff works a little better at allowing us to get more exposure to this virus without toppling our hospitals and aiding us in finally ending this pandemic lifestyle.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> I am not trying to blame anyone. I don't consider finding a culprit to a problem an actual end to a problem...and all I want to do is see this pandemic end. I also never said the unvaccinated are not contributing to the current problem. I said that even if we turn all the unvaccinated citizens into vaccinated citizens, we are still going to have a problem with the hospitals.
> 
> We need to focus on that. When they unvaccinated were the biggest part of the problem, the focus on them was well placed. It isn't as well placed anymore. That does not mean they should not do their duty and help us out by vaccinating, but we are going to need even more then that to get through this.


The unvaccinated are the biggest part of the ICU problem.

They haven't been the biggest part of the speeding problem for months.

It's debatable how much of a hospitalization problem "they" are.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> So attempting to give this some kind of rational thought, using what we know and remembering the world we actually live in and not the dream world that might be a lot better, what does everyone think we should do about this problem?


I think we have to get a little more proactive.

I think it was a big mistake for provinces to leave restaurants, gyms, sports at full capacity (and they really were packed) in mid December, even while it was clear omicron had become a huge problem in Europe. We had plenty of warning signs but I think our policymakers chose to ignore them.

Even when we saw rising case numbers in Canada, plus omicron detected, the policy makers still failed to act to constrain dense indoor spaces.

Reduced capacity should have come into place in mid December, for restaurants, gyms, sports, and also limiting sizes of household gatherings. Instead we went into Christmas with everything fully open.

Omicron would have still spread but we could have reduced the rate. Instead nobody seemed to want to "kill the buzz" right before the holidays. Now we are paying the price for that, *but it was avoidable to some extent*.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> I think we have to get a little more proactive.
> 
> I think it was a big mistake for provinces to leave restaurants, gyms, sports at full capacity (and they really were packed) in mid December, even while it was clear omicron had become a huge problem in Europe. We had plenty of warning signs but I think our policymakers chose to ignore them.
> 
> Even when we saw rising case numbers in Canada, plus omicron detected, the policy makers still failed to act to constrain dense indoor spaces.
> 
> Reduced capacity should have come into place in mid December, for restaurants, gyms, sports, and also limiting sizes of household gatherings. Instead we went into Christmas with everything fully open.
> 
> Omicron would have still spread but we could have reduced the rate. Instead nobody seemed to want to "kill the buzz" right before the holidays. Now we are paying the price for that, *but it was avoidable to some extent*.





damian13ster said:


> Here is how restrictions affect Omicron:
> 
> View attachment 22651


So you want to do what Scotland did basically? Not exactly effective, to any extent


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> That said, it would be nice to have something to end this pandemic. Why you take that as some kind of vaccine bashing is a problem you really need to deal with.


I didn't take it as a vaccine bashing, what I did was take it as another complaint against the original version, which you had done previously. 

There's no silver bullet to ending this, what you require is a number of measures. Vaccines can work; however, they are always going to be behind the curve since they are based on existing virus. Because of that, you will need other measures, which basically boil down to public health measures, and increased ICU capacity. It is obvious that going with one approach isn't going to be the end all be all answer. You can see in other countries that the extremes don't work that well, or it depends on the population. At the most basic, virus only transmits with relative close proximity and you need to remove reservoirs of covid virus. Those are things that social distancing and vaccinations can address. ICU capability is there to address what happens when those fail and quite frankly, shouldn't be the default answer as we see in the US. As with everything, prevention is a lot easier to deal with than the consequences.


----------



## james4beach

Pfizer is working on a hybrid vaccine that combines the original shot with something that targets omicron

That article is sparse on details so I don't know exactly what this means but I presume it's still using the mRNA method. The same article mentions that their covid pill, Paxlovid, will soon be available for use.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> Pfizer is working on a hybrid vaccine that combines the original shot with something that targets omicron
> 
> That article is sparse on details so I don't know exactly what this means but I presume it's still using the mRNA method. The same article mentions that their covid pill, Paxlovid, will soon be available for use.


Probably vaporcine. Vaporcine being the promising of a vaccine as opposed to producing one. Doing what they can to ensure competitors don't try take the business they hope to get when people stop taking the previous version of their vaccine.


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> I didn't take it as a vaccine bashing, what I did was take it as another complaint against the original version, which you had done previously.


Actually you did. 

I could not care less what fixes this pandemic. I was just pointing out that our problems from Omicron have increased from just being a problem of the unvaccinated not vaccinating. To do that it was important to understand the limitations of the current vaccines. It was an observation more then a complaint. A fact to get the board to look at everything that needs to be done, not just getting the remaining vaccine holdouts to jab up. That is not going to fix the hospital problem anymore. It would help a lot, but too much of a problem will still remain after they are vaccinated.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> The unvaccinated are the biggest part of the ICU problem.
> 
> They haven't been the biggest part of the speeding problem for months.
> 
> It's debatable how much of a hospitalization problem "they" are.


No argument. The unvaccinated are still a big problem for the hospitals. I just want to point out that since Omicron came the hospital problem has transitioned from more then just who is being admitted. It has also become a problem of who is being asked to leave. Specifically here I am talking about doctors, nurses and other hospital staff that are testing positive and being asked to stay at home. The vast majority of those people are actually vaccinated. That is a problem almost as big as the other and even if we get everyone of our citizens to vaccinate, with current trajectory of infections, our hospitals ability to function will still be in jeopardy.

That is the point I am making. Our leaders are looking at it. Changing isolation time frames and allowing some staff to work who are infected but asymptomatic, but some of that may actually add more to the problem then it resolves. Right now the majority of people in the hospital are not infected with covid. It would help if we kept it that way and did not increase the infection spread within the hospital itself.

I just want to make sure we understand that with the current vaccines this problem is not going to go away. That is not telling a unvaccinated person they don't need to vaccinate or they were right and the vaccines have no benefit, because they have tremendous benefit. It is just pointing out, what should be obvious to anyone looking at this situation objectively, that vaccinating everyone with the current vaccines still leaves us with a big mess.


----------



## Beaver101

^ The vaxxeds were not the problem. Now the unvaxxeds ain't the problem. And yet hospitalisations due to Covid keep skyrocketing (at least in Ontario), so which is it? 

Hey, I just figured out that I can change lanes on the 401 ... as long as I get there with there being I don't care. Duh.


----------



## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> Pfizer is working on a hybrid vaccine that combines the original shot with something that targets omicron
> 
> That article is sparse on details so I don't know exactly what this means but I presume it's still using the mRNA method. The same article mentions that their covid pill, Paxlovid, will soon be available for use.


Doubt that it's any more sophisticated than delivering 2 mRNAs at a time packaged in a shot. Say 10 ug/mL of the original and 20 ug/mL of the Omicron variant, or some variation of the two.


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> Actually you did.
> 
> I could not care less what fixes this pandemic. I was just pointing out that our problems from Omicron have increased from just being a problem of the unvaccinated not vaccinating. To do that it was important to understand the limitations of the current vaccines. It was an observation more then a complaint. A fact to get the board to look at everything that needs to be done, not just getting the remaining vaccine holdouts to jab up. That is not going to fix the hospital problem anymore. It would help a lot, but too much of a problem will still remain after they are vaccinated.


And like I said there are the two issues to address: transmission and removing the pool of people where covid will not reside. Obviously you don't seem to think other measures work: social distancing/public measures or vaccinations. So the only other option is let it run and accept that life is going to be like this. 

Now, the good part is that it seems that Omicron runs through quickly and then subsides based on South Africa and UK, so in a few weeks the Omicron might burn itself out and hospitalizations drop. With the vaccinations formulated against Omicron, we would be protected from any derived strains from Omicron. However, who knows if in the future there will be a strain that is again as mutated/different as Omicron was to Delta and we need another formulation? It took about 2 years for Omicron to develop, does it mean in 2 years time or sooner we'll see another one? Don't have a crystal ball to say.


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> And like I said there are the two issues to address: transmission and removing the pool of people where covid will not reside. Obviously you don't seem to think other measures work: social distancing/public measures or vaccinations. So the only other option is let it run and accept that life is going to be like this.
> 
> Now, the good part is that it seems that Omicron runs through quickly and then subsides based on South Africa and UK, so in a few weeks the Omicron might burn itself out and hospitalizations drop. With the vaccinations formulated against Omicron, we would be protected from any derived strains from Omicron. However, who knows if in the future there will be a strain that is again as mutated/different as Omicron was to Delta and we need another formulation? It took about 2 years for Omicron to develop, does it mean in 2 years time or sooner we'll see another one? Don't have a crystal ball to say.


If we fix the hospital issue the problems we experience from transmission will drop considerably. As for removing the pool of people where covid resides, we are now talking about everyone, so that is unlikely to happen. We need, therefore, to figure out a way to best deal with future variants. A vaccine is best and next to that a safe way to get exposure to these viruses, will be a close second. The second approach will by far be quicker then the first, if the current timelines for developing and distributing these new vaccines continue.

I am watching the South African situation as well and feel good about it but I wonder what weather and differences in restrictions are doing for their situation, compared to the outcome we might expect. Not sure how much declining spread we are getting in the Northern Hemisphere and/or in areas where we are delaying restricting the spread and therefore the immunity the spread can provide.

The point we will eventually have to consider is what are we going to do if the Corona virus turns out to be as difficult to eradicate as the common cold but still maintains its severity to the vulnerable in our population. I don't have an answer to that but I think we are getting close to the time where the question needs to at least be asked.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> The point we will eventually have to consider is what are we going to do if the Corona virus turns out to be as difficult to eradicate as the common cold but still maintains its severity to the vulnerable in our population.


It is possible covid will continue to hang around like the common cold or move around like a seasonal flu.


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> If we fix the hospital issue the problems we experience from transmission will drop considerably. As for removing the pool of people where covid resides, we are now talking about everyone, so that is unlikely to happen. We need, therefore, to figure out a way to best deal with future variants. A vaccine is best and next to that a safe way to get exposure to these viruses, will be a close second. The second approach will by far be quicker then the first, if the current timelines for developing and distributing these new vaccines continue.
> 
> I am watching the South African situation as well and feel good about it but I wonder what weather and differences in restrictions are doing for their situation, compared to the outcome we might expect. Not sure how much declining spread we are getting in the Northern Hemisphere and/or in areas where we are delaying restricting the spread and therefore the immunity the spread can provide.
> 
> The point we will eventually have to consider is what are we going to do if the Corona virus turns out to be as difficult to eradicate as the common cold but still maintains its severity to the vulnerable in our population. I don't have an answer to that but I think we are getting close to the time where the question needs to at least be asked.


The hospital issue is a symptom of the problem which is widespread infection and the required medical care, not a solution to it. Like I said previously, prevention is a lot easier than dealing with the consequences. As for the pool, we did that for polio, and some extent measles. The difference is that covid seems to mutate more readily than the others. Let's be honest here, the reason some people aren't getting vaccinated is that they don't view covid as dangerous as polio or measles. If it were, you would see a bigger uptake.

Like I said, only 2 approaches to eradicate. If they aren't being used, then we deal with it as an endemic disease. Once there are over the counter pills for it, people can stock up and take those so they don't enter the medical system. You can increase supply of rapid tests to confirm that you have covid before taking the medication though. Although if you are one of those in the vulnerable population and unvaccinated, you can probably skip the rapid test, assuming there is little or mild side-effects from the covid treatment.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> It is possible covid will continue to hang around like the common cold or move around like a seasonal flu.


That is what I am worried about. Not the virus, but the response to the virus. We cannot keep living in the vicious cycle of loosening restrictions, increasing spread, tightening restrictions, reducing spread, repeat, repeat, repeat.

You know what I mean. That was more my question, not the endemic part. That I have come to grips with.


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> Like I said, only 2 approaches to eradicate. If they aren't being used, then we deal with it as an endemic disease. Once there are over the counter pills for it, people can stock up and take those so they don't enter the medical system. You can increase supply of rapid tests to confirm that you have covid before taking the medication though. Although if you are one of those in the vulnerable population and unvaccinated, you can probably skip the rapid test, assuming there is little or mild side-effects from the covid treatment.


Let's hope it works. I will be interested to see how the covid pills work in practice. That will of course take a long time to get production up and the education and knowledge on how to actually use them and we have yet to see what all the real world "science" conflictingly says about them, totally messing with their implementation...if you know what I mean.

My concern is that I think time is running out. Everything here, like the pills above, new vaccines, etc. etc., are probably going to take too long. Well over a year. The virus may very well blow through our population before we have those in place and of course, a new variant may come along to reduce the effectiveness of any vaccine that eventually gets into people's arms.

I am just wondering if all we are doing is similar to delaying the D-Day invasion of Normandy because Eisenhower cannot guarantee a victory without some level of casualties.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> That is what I am worried about. Not the virus, but the response to the virus. We cannot keep living in the vicious cycle of loosening restrictions, increasing spread, tightening restrictions, reducing spread, repeat, repeat, repeat.


Sadly we might have to live in that cycle, like it or not. Worldwide eradication of a virus is no simple task anymore with so many people moving all over the globe in a single day.


----------



## damian13ster

Israel just beat their record in infections.
Guess the 3rd and 4th doses aren't all that good either in stopping infections.

Positivity rate in Canada is over 30% - third world country number. Whoever is responsible for procurement and organizing testing should be fired on the spot without any further questions - pure incompetency


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> Let's hope it works. I will be interested to see how the covid pills work in practice. That will of course take a long time to get production up and the education and knowledge on how to actually use them and we have yet to see what all the real world "science" conflictingly says about them, totally messing with their implementation...if you know what I mean.
> 
> My concern is that I think time is running out. Everything here, like the pills above, new vaccines, etc. etc., are probably going to take too long. Well over a year. The virus may very well blow through our population before we have those in place and of course, a new variant may come along to reduce the effectiveness of any vaccine that eventually gets into people's arms.
> 
> I am just wondering if all we are doing is similar to delaying the D-Day invasion of Normandy because Eisenhower cannot guarantee a victory without some level of casualties.


It's not like the virus doesn't have a say in the matter. We can do what we can according to what we know and the tools that we have. Not to be flippant, but there isn't really a deadline, and I'm sure scientists are doing their best to develop solutions. The work is being done, but it takes time. If a new variant appears that is significantly altered, it'll take time to sequence and determine any difference.

As for the drugs in development, Pfizer's began development back with SARS, so it had been shelved and brought back out. Merck's drug is similar in that they worked on it for a different application, but when covid came out, every drug company pulled out existing drugs and developing drugs off the shelf to see what might work. So they weren't starting from scratch. As these are anti-viral drugs dealing with the replication mechanism of the virus, it's unlikely the virus can adapt; however, they only reduce the replication rate, so if your viral loads are already pretty high, it may be too late to prevent serious illness, but the illness shouldn't get worse. New Covid Pills Offer Hope as Omicron Looms


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Sadly we might have to live in that cycle, like it or not. Worldwide eradication of a virus is no simple task anymore with so many people moving all over the globe in a single day.


I am pretty sure I can live with it a lot longer then most but I am seriously worried about how many cycles a small business, like a restaurant, can take and eventually we do need to start educating our children.

There is a much bigger problem here then just how many and who are in the ICU today, although, I agree, that is still pretty serious.


----------



## sags

Alberta resumed in school yesterday and within 4 hours, some Calgary schools were sending kids home for on-line learning.

Other schools applied to the Alberta government to close the whole school. The government has to approve closures now.

The schools are deploying non-teachers in the classrooms, so I am not sure how beneficial for kids that would be.

Maybe the situation will improve or maybe not. Time will tell, as Ontario is planning to open up schools next week for 2 million students.

Parents are not happy with the lack of testing in schools though.


----------



## damian13ster

From Ontario:

The province reported that 54 per cent of the 3,220 hospitalizations are people who are in hospital primarily due to COVID-19, while the remaining 46 per cent were admitted for other reasons but have now tested positive for the virus.


----------



## sags

Ontario had 21 deaths and 477 in ICU. They are likely un-vaccinated people.

_Approximately 83 per cent were admitted to the ICU seeking treatment for COVID-19 and 17 per cent were admitted for other reasons but have tested positive for the illness, according to the dataset. _



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-ontario-jan-11-2022-1.6310732


----------



## damian13ster

Don't know. They don't provide any information on vaccination status of those dying.

Vaccinated are still getting infected at higher rate than unvaccinated.











The vaccinated really need to stop driving the pandemic and spreading the disease at such a high rate...... 😂


----------



## sags

In a poll conducted by the the Ford government they have slid sharply down in the poll, while mandatory vaccination has increased to a high support level



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-covid-19-polling-doug-ford-government-1.6310005


----------



## sags

The unvaccinated don't want to take a vaccine, but will accept a closet full of drugs if they end up in the ICU and more if they are intubated.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> I am pretty sure I can live with it a lot longer then most but I am seriously worried about how many cycles a small business, like a restaurant, can take and eventually we do need to start educating our children.
> 
> There is a much bigger problem here then just how many and who are in the ICU today, although, I agree, that is still pretty serious.


Hopefully they'll select restrictions that'll help the most without hurting business/schooling. Tough balancing act IMO. Overall things are fairly normal here with 50% cap limits but I'm sure that hurts some places more than others.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> In a poll conducted by the the Ford government they have slid sharply down in the poll, while mandatory vaccination has increased to a high support level
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-covid-19-polling-doug-ford-government-1.6310005


That is more of a poll on how much Ontario residents are enjoying their pandemic experience, as opposed to a real poll where someone in Ontario is asked who they think would do a better job.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Hopefully they'll select restrictions that'll help the most without hurting business/schooling. Tough balancing act IMO. Overall things are fairly normal here with 50% cap limits but I'm sure that hurts some places more than others.


Sure but not many business models were develop using 50% capacity as a max. That is the real problem. How long can these businesses last. The only reason they have so far is the hope that it will end. If what we are saying is that there really is no end in any reasonable time frame (1 year) you might find most of them would cut their loses now and close for good.

In any case, our children are not getting any smarter but they are definitely getting older everyday. How long can they go on with a delayed education. There was always a difference between the quick learners and the slower ones but I would not like to give a test today to see how much bigger that gap got in the last two years.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Sure but not many business models were develop using 50% capacity as a max. That is the real problem. How long can these businesses last. The only reason they have so far is the hope that it will end. If what we are saying is that there really is no end in any reasonable time frame (1 year) you might find most of them would cut their loses now and close for good.


Many places are not truely affected by the 50% cap, they are rarely above that. Some restaurants (and other places) lose out on their lunch/dinner time seating that's near max capacity. From a few owners I know their pick-up/delivery (and drive-thru when avail) has made up for that fairly well. When I sat inside at Timmy's there was a steady stream of delivery people picking stuff up and that's not a place I'd expect people to order delivery from.



OptsyEagle said:


> In any case, our children are not getting any smarter but they are definitely getting older everyday. How long can they go on with a delayed education. There was always a difference between the quick learners and the slower ones but I would not like to give a test today to see how much bigger that gap got in the last two years.


No idea what impact this will have, never looked into it.


----------



## Plugging Along

I thought I would use this thread as a little 'blog' of what we are going through with Covid so far. 
Over the holidays, people all around us have been getting infected with covid. All of the ones we know, said it was from from a few saying is was mild cold, to most saying it was a really bad cold to worst than they have ever felt in their life. Fortunately, all were fully vaccinated, and have been recovering fine. We decided to mini isolate starting Dec 30, just to make sure we weren't infecting and spreading and get the kids ready for school. So no contact outside of the house.

My spouse did have hockey last week, and then was notified of a close contact. He had no symptoms when he was called (day 3 of last exposure). That night he went to bed early as feeling tired, and said he had the the chills in the morning, but was fine. We rapid tested him, and it was negative. Two days later he had a cough and it seemed to be getting worse. So we rapid testing him again and he was positive. My oldest was having a sore throat, and my youngest seemed fine. We rapid tested everyone - and every except spouse is negative. Oldest stayed home because she developed a cough and youngest went to school, no symptoms. 

After I rapid tested, I started to feel a sore throat and really tired (I am always tired). Due to being at a high risk group, the self assessment recommends PCR testing even though I am negative with the rapid. This is because there is a treatment that may be provided within the first 5 days of symptoms for high risk. Got my test, felt awful for the whole day, and napped. Test results have come back negative. My symptoms are getting better, so I think it's just a cold. 

Oldest still has symptoms and is sleeping, youngest has a sore throat now. I plan to rapid test them later. My spouse is now day 4 of symptoms and feels like crap. He says definitely worse than a cold and flu. Could also be that he is being a man-baby, but he sounds pretty bad right now. 

I only posted to share our experiences so far. To let people know that testing is not fool proof, and if someone has symptoms even if it rapid tests negative, they can still be infected with covid. The other interesting part is that I had my booster at the very end of the year. My spouse didn't get his. The reason was we booked at different places both looking for Pfizer. In my case, it was at the health clinic, and they said they had a pfizer shortage so I could only get Monderna. I was on the fence, but read it might be better, so went ahead. My spouse booked at a pharmacy, and they cancelled his appointment due to lack of supply, so he never got his booster. I wonder if that is why I am not infected yet. I usually catch everything. I guess I will find out how effective the booster is, it was just over a week before I was exposed. The last part I am testing is to see if someone in the house hold has COVID, is there a chance of successful isolation from the other household members. 

I am currently considering NOT trying to isolate everyone and take precautions, and just allowing nature to determine our fate if I get infected or not. I think once my spouse starts recovering (he is currently getting worse), then I would stop with all the N95 masks, extra sanitizing and distancing and continue life as normal. Part of me says, its been almost two weeks since I had my booster, and it's a good of a time as any. Maybe I then I can get just move on. Still thinking this through. I am leaning towards when my spouse is almost recovered, and if my kids do get covid, then I will stop taking precautions around them as my spouse should be able to take care of things if I am sick. Thoughts?

Will continue to post updates if people are interested


----------



## MK7GTI

Quebec to impose tax on those who refuse COVID-19 vaccinations


Premier François Legault says levy will be ‘significant’ as province faces record number of hospitalizations and top public health official resigns




www.theglobeandmail.com





More nonsense coming out of Quebec.


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> Alberta resumed in school yesterday and within 4 hours, some Calgary schools were sending kids home for on-line learning.
> 
> Other schools applied to the Alberta government to close the whole school. The government has to approve closures now.
> 
> The schools are deploying non-teachers in the classrooms, so I am not sure how beneficial for kids that would be.
> 
> Maybe the situation will improve or maybe not. Time will tell, as Ontario is planning to open up schools next week for 2 million students.
> 
> Parents are not happy with the lack of testing in schools though.


To provide context: 
- the schools that sent kids home where classes not the whole school. It had to do with not enough teachers or subs for those classes. Not because of covid spread. 
-It's not news that schools have to apply for closure, that is under the education act. Most of the closures are due to not enough staff.

As a parent of two kids in the system, I have for keeping the schools opened as long as it's safe and possible. Right now, it's a staffing shortage. Hopefully, not a safety issue. I did send my one kid with n95 masks after a rapid test. Others may not have those supplies yet, but they are supposed to be sent home this week. You are right, I am unhappy with the lack of testing the government is providing, I spent hundreds of dollars sourcing rapid test kits (no easy feat) and n95 masks months ago in case it got worse. I will do anything to keep my kids safe but in school. For my kids, getting infected with COVID is no longer their biggest risk, its the larger impacts on their mental health, social development, and academics that is now my largest concern. 



OptsyEagle said:


> In any case, our children are not getting any smarter but they are definitely getting older everyday. How long can they go on with a delayed education. There was always a difference between the quick learners and the slower ones but I would not like to give a test today to see how much bigger that gap got in the last two years.


As a parent of two teens, I am seeing the impacts go much further than academics. My kids have been fortunate as they are quick learners, were already ahead so have not fallen behind at all. This isn't the case for many though. As my oldest went into high school, even though she was ahead of her class before, she found there were many things that we not covered. She is just spending alot of time self learning what she didn't know she had to learn. She is passing with a bit of a struggle compared to her straight A's before. Her classmates are dropping like flies in to easier classes. These are supposed to be the brightest kids in her class. We have many friends who have hired private instruction to get their kids caught up on their own. This only works for those who have the means and time. For those parents that can't afford tutors or are struggling with time to keep things going, I really feel for them.

For my kids, academics is the least of my worries. Mental health is taking a huge toll on everyone especially my kids whom have diagnosed issues prior to COVID. I suspect there are so many more kids struggling and cannot get the help or diagnosis right now. Sadly, due to budget cuts just before COVID, my kids school had to get rid of the Wellness area and all the counsellors, so we are seeing a hot mess with the kids. It's not only coming out in mental health, but in their behaviors. There is a lot of kids trying to get out their emotions and frustrations, and don't know how. The resources there have been cut. Again, I spend out of pocket almost $1000 a month on additional supports.

In addition to the mental health and academics, the social development for kids is not talked about. At the beginning I didn't really think about it. We heard about the struggles with parents of little trying to balance working at home, education and providing care for their young ones. I was grateful academically, my kids were so self sufficient. I see the other parts that COVID has taken away. When one thinks about it, the teenagers learn as much as babies and toddler do. COVID didn't have much impacts on baby and toddler development as they are with their parents learning. In fact, it may have helped as they have more time with parents that were working from home. Adolescence IS the time that humans are learning their independence and explorer their individuality and social structures. A kid in grade 6 is so different from at grade 12 student. If we think about these 6 years, so far covid has taken 1/3 of that time away. From social development, these years are often grouped in 3 year intervals for milestones and maturity ranges. Taking 2 out 3 crucial years is going to have a huge impact. I am seeing it now as i see kids are 'stuck' in their development and maturity. They will continue to age and move up in grades, but some are being left behind in the social and mental maturity. 

I think we are going to have a huge mess in a few a years.


----------



## bgc_fan

Plugging Along said:


> As a parent of two teens, I am seeing the impacts go much further than academics. My kids have been fortunate as they are quick learners, were already ahead so have not fallen behind at all. This isn't the case for many though. As my oldest went into high school, even though she was ahead of her class before, she found there were many things that we not covered. She is just spending alot of time self learning what she didn't know she had to learn. She is passing with a bit of a struggle compared to her straight A's before. Her classmates are dropping like flies in to easier classes. These are supposed to be the brightest kids in her class. We have many friends who have hired private instruction to get their kids caught up on their own. This only works for those who have the means and time. For those parents that can't afford tutors or are struggling with time to keep things going, I really feel for them.


Out of curiosity, is Khan Academy of any use? I remember years ago people would rave about it and how great it is, but I haven't heard anything recently about it. I would have thought this would have been something to help out. Of course it depends on the subject matter.


----------



## Plugging Along

bgc_fan said:


> Out of curiosity, is Khan Academy of any use? I remember years ago people would rave about it and how great it is, but I haven't heard anything recently about it. I would have thought this would have been something to help out. Of course it depends on the subject matter.


The content is still good and so are the explanations. It's good if your child is disciplined can learn this way on their own. My kids were fine, but alot kids this method of information doesn't work as well. They need interaction and feedback. My kids find its fine, but if they need help, it's usually something very specific or nuanced that is not in the video. Some of my friends have found that it doesn't work for their kids as well, so the parents watch with the kids to learn it themselves, in order to teach their kid.

The content is solid though.


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> I thought I would use this thread as a little 'blog' of what we are going through with Covid so far.
> ...
> Still thinking this through. I am leaning towards when my spouse is almost recovered, and if my kids do get covid, then I will stop taking precautions around them as my spouse should be able to take care of things if I am sick. *Thoughts?*
> 
> Will continue to post updates if people are interested


 ... visiting your parents and his parents (and any other vulnerable people) re your strategy.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> I just want to make sure we understand that with the current vaccines this problem is not going to go away.


We knew that back in early 2020. 
Vaccines were never a solution, simply a delaying tactic until COVID became something we could deal with, either by mutating, or developing effective treatments, or just get used to higher death rates.


----------



## Beaver101

MK7GTI said:


> Quebec to impose tax on those who refuse COVID-19 vaccinations
> 
> 
> Premier François Legault says levy will be ‘significant’ as province faces record number of hospitalizations and top public health official resigns
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theglobeandmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More nonsense coming out of Quebec.


 ... I'm pleasantly surprised Quebec is taking a lead.


----------



## Money172375

Saw a news report out of Europe….perhaps it was reps from the European union. They predict half of Europe will get COVID within 2 months.

I think governments all know this and have made the decision, such as in Ontario schools, to let it happen. I’m of the belief that there’s no stopping it, and little chance of slowing it. you can close the schools, the restaurants, bars, gyms….people are still interacting and most (who don’t have underlying issues) are saying….I’ve had enough…I’m getting on with life. 

I have family who’s high-end hockey games (aaa) have been cancelled. The teams just organizing “private“ ice somewhere and play the games anyway. This is happening across all sectors and industries. People order takeout and have large parties or get together and exercise in basements. Restrictions may work a tiny bit, but I think they’re effect now, is much different than their effect 18 months ago.


----------



## MrMatt

MK7GTI said:


> Quebec to impose tax on those who refuse COVID-19 vaccinations
> 
> 
> Premier François Legault says levy will be ‘significant’ as province faces record number of hospitalizations and top public health official resigns
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theglobeandmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More nonsense coming out of Quebec.


Well not really nonsense, but a slippery slope.
Being fined for exercising human rights? If a vaccination is only worth $100, or even $500, that's not much of a justification for human rights.


----------



## Money172375

here it is…









Covid: Half of Europe to be infected with Omicron within weeks - WHO


Dr Hans Kluge says a "west-to-east tidal wave" of the coronavirus variant is sweeping across the region.



www.bbc.com


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> ... visiting your parents and his parents (and any other vulnerable people) re your strategy.


RIght now, we can't visit anyways for 14 days at my mom's home because my spouse is already positive. I can't even visit due to being close contact. We stop visits with vulnerable when anyone in our house is suspected of Covid (this is the first time we have someone positive) I am just thinking of getting it over with and not trying to avoid covid while it's already in my household. Strangely, I have done isolation impact calculations in the past to see what would minimize over isolation time in our family, and the best answer is when one gets it, to allow all to get it. I also have to think about the bigger things such as health impacts, ability to recover, functioning as a household, etc. Thinking I already have had my booster, my kids are isolating at home (not sure if they have COVID yet, will test again), and if my spouse is recovering fine, I think getting the Omicron now, is better than later. 

We have been extremely cautious in the past because of severe outcomes, infecting others, and overwhelming the healthcare system. The vaccinations especially with my booster along with Omicron should reduce the possibility of severe outcomes. We can control infecting other, especially right now, since everyone is home out of caution. One of the only reasons I can think this is a bad idea is that one never knows how their body will respond and hospitalization is going up in the area, which could be worse if I get it now. 

Just really throwing out some ideas, but I am pretty pragmatic so won't do anything silly. I am just weighing out the impacts of getting covid now (for me) vs the costs of all the effort we are going through to isolate each family member. I have hardly seen my kids because everyone is stuck in their rooms. I have an industrial mask if they are near me. Just a lot of work to isolate everyone


----------



## Money172375

I know people where one household member has COVID, and the others are contemplating on getting it purposefully. Kind of like an anti-lockdown. I’ve heard a few people say, “i just want to get it and move on”.

the knowing, not knowing and wanting to get back to “normal” is driving some “interesting“ decision making. 

where are we at with treatments? Canada hasn’t approved the Pfizer pill right? although, getting the pill prescribed, might be a challenge if you can’t get a pcr test.


----------



## damian13ster

Money172375 said:


> I know people where one household member has COVID, and the others are contemplating on getting it purposefully. Kind of like an anti-lockdown. I’ve heard a few people say, “i just want to get it and move on”.
> 
> the knowing, not knowing and wanting to get back to “normal” is driving some “interesting“ decision making.
> 
> where are we at with treatments? Canada hasn’t approved the Pfizer pill right? although, getting the pill prescribed, might be a challenge if you can’t get a pcr test.


Might be time to get sick as quickly as possible before public healthcare is gone or you get charged extra for healthcare without weekly jab.


----------



## sags

Or maybe not.

Don't quit part way through the race. Soldier on and take one day at a time.


----------



## Plugging Along

Money172375 said:


> I know people where one household member has COVID, and the others are contemplating on getting it purposefully. Kind of like an anti-lockdown. I’ve heard a few people say, “i just want to get it and move on”.
> 
> the knowing, not knowing and wanting to get back to “normal” is driving some “interesting“ decision making.
> 
> where are we at with treatments? Canada hasn’t approved the Pfizer pill right? although, getting the pill prescribed, might be a challenge if you can’t get a pcr test.


This is exactly where I am at now. Spouse is confirmed, kids and I have symptoms, but have tested negative using the rapid test. I was eligible for a PCR, and just tested negative (I was able to get in within 24 hours by luck). 

When I went through the self assessment on our health site, I got this message. My spouse was not eligible for testing. Not quite sure what Sotrovimab is though. 

*



You may be eligible for Sotrovimab treatment. Do these criteria apply to you?

Click to expand...

*


> Sotrovimab is for use in patients who have a confirmed COVID-19 infection and can receive the treatment within five days of symptom onset AND they are:
> 
> *Unvaccinated and are:*
> Age 55 and older
> OR
> Age 18 and older with a pre-existing health condition including:
> 
> diabetes (taking medication for treatment)
> obesity (BMI >30)
> chronic kidney disease
> congestive heart failure
> chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, and moderate-to-severe asthma
> OR
> Pregnant
> *Immunocompromised, due to the following (vaccinated or unvaccinated):*
> 
> have received a transplant
> have had cancer or an inflammatory condition e.g. rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, inflammatory bowel disease) needing treatment in the last year


----------



## zinfit

Plugging Along said:


> I thought I would use this thread as a little 'blog' of what we are going through with Covid so far.
> Over the holidays, people all around us have been getting infected with covid. All of the ones we know, said it was from from a few saying is was mild cold, to most saying it was a really bad cold to worst than they have ever felt in their life. Fortunately, all were fully vaccinated, and have been recovering fine. We decided to mini isolate starting Dec 30, just to make sure we weren't infecting and spreading and get the kids ready for school. So no contact outside of the house.
> 
> My spouse did have hockey last week, and then was notified of a close contact. He had no symptoms when he was called (day 3 of last exposure). That night he went to bed early as feeling tired, and said he had the the chills in the morning, but was fine. We rapid tested him, and it was negative. Two days later he had a cough and it seemed to be getting worse. So we rapid testing him again and he was positive. My oldest was having a sore throat, and my youngest seemed fine. We rapid tested everyone - and every except spouse is negative. Oldest stayed home because she developed a cough and youngest went to school, no symptoms.
> 
> After I rapid tested, I started to feel a sore throat and really tired (I am always tired). Due to being at a high risk group, the self assessment recommends PCR testing even though I am negative with the rapid. This is because there is a treatment that may be provided within the first 5 days of symptoms for high risk. Got my test, felt awful for the whole day, and napped. Test results have come back negative. My symptoms are getting better, so I think it's just a cold.
> 
> Oldest still has symptoms and is sleeping, youngest has a sore throat now. I plan to rapid test them later. My spouse is now day 4 of symptoms and feels like crap. He says definitely worse than a cold and flu. Could also be that he is being a man-baby, but he sounds pretty bad right now.
> 
> I only posted to share our experiences so far. To let people know that testing is not fool proof, and if someone has symptoms even if it rapid tests negative, they can still be infected with covid. The other interesting part is that I had my booster at the very end of the year. My spouse didn't get his. The reason was we booked at different places both looking for Pfizer. In my case, it was at the health clinic, and they said they had a pfizer shortage so I could only get Monderna. I was on the fence, but read it might be better, so went ahead. My spouse booked at a pharmacy, and they cancelled his appointment due to lack of supply, so he never got his booster. I wonder if that is why I am not infected yet. I usually catch everything. I guess I will find out how effective the booster is, it was just over a week before I was exposed. The last part I am testing is to see if someone in the house hold has COVID, is there a chance of successful isolation from the other household members.
> 
> I am currently considering NOT trying to isolate everyone and take precautions, and just allowing nature to determine our fate if I get infected or not. I think once my spouse starts recovering (he is currently getting worse), then I would stop with all the N95 masks, extra sanitizing and distancing and continue life as normal. Part of me says, its been almost two weeks since I had my booster, and it's a good of a time as any. Maybe I then I can get just move on. Still thinking this through. I am leaning towards when my spouse is almost recovered, and if my kids do get covid, then I will stop taking precautions around them as my spouse should be able to take care of things if I am sick. Thoughts?
> 
> Will continue to post updates if people are interested


getting the Moderna was a wise choice. From everything I have seen it is more effective then Pfizer. I an't believe people are turning down Moderna because they want a Pfizer. Real time evidence shows mixed dosages might even be superior.


----------



## Plugging Along

zinfit said:


> getting the Moderna was a wise choice. From everything I have seen it is more effective then Pfizer. I an't believe people are turning down Moderna because they want a Pfizer. Real time evidence shows mixed dosages might even be superior.


 I remember reading this at one point, but had researched so much, I forgot what I had read. I planned to get Pfizer just cause I knew I had it last time. I did have to think twice when they told me Moderna. i figure mixing than waiting another month for the next available Appt. Lets see if it keeps me safe while my spouse is infected.

now, my spouse since, he is infected was told there is no need to rush for a few months For his booster.


----------



## Money172375

I’m debating what to do about my son. Turns 18 next month and will be eligible for booster. Get it or wait for omicron version? Potato? Potatoe?


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> I’m debating what to do about my son. Turns 18 next month and will be eligible for booster. Get it or wait for omicron version? Potato? Potatoe?


I'd get the booster available now.

If they have an Omicron booster, you won't get it for another few months anyway, and by then we might be on to to the next strain.

Remember, Delta didn't confer protection against Omicron


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> getting the Moderna was a wise choice. From everything I have seen it is more effective then Pfizer. I an't believe people are turning down Moderna because they want a Pfizer. Real time evidence shows mixed dosages might even be superior.


Yeah I also don't understand turning down Moderna. One of my first clues of the strong antibody response was through a friend of mine living in Baltimore near research hospitals. He has health problems and was recruited as part of a hospital study, they monitor his antibody levels at intervals. Soon after he got the vaccine (I think a month or two after) they told him his antibody levels were off the charts, the doctors joked he's now super human. Obviously antibodies will wane with time, but it does seem that the Moderna vaccine tends to result in higher antibody levels.

My current concern with getting the third shot is that community spread is incredibly high! I'm not sure how safe these vaccination clinics are. I'm going to wait and try to get a better sense of the level of covid out there, but unfortunately with reporting breaking down, we also seem to have no idea how much is circulating. I really don't want to pack myself into a clinic along with other people.

So I'm holding off on getting my third shot. Not because I'm anti vax at all, but I'm really not sure how safe it is to go into those settings. Plus they usually make us *remove* our good quality N95 masks, and that scares the sh*t out of me. I walk in with an N95, they make me remove it and give me a junky (useless) surgical mask.

I won't even walk into a grocery store with a surgical mask, so I sure as hell am not going to walk into a mass vaccination center with only a surgical mask. But that has been the policy until now... no N95 masks allowed. WTF?


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Yeah I also don't understand turning down Moderna.


I would turn it down, given the option to take pfizer. The only real weighted reason ... it's the devil I know.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> I would turn it down, given the option to take pfizer. The only real weighted reason ... it's the devil I know.


How do you know which one you would get? Is it spelled out at the time of booking?

Here in BC it's quite a random lottery. In fact when getting my second shot, my appointment was within half an hour of a close friend. We're the same age. We both went to the same vaccination clinic (I later saw him in the waiting area) and it turned out he got Pfizer, I got Moderna.

I have no idea how that was determined.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Yeah I also don't understand turning down Moderna. One of my first clues of the strong antibody response was through a friend of mine living in Baltimore near research hospitals. He has health problems and was recruited as part of a hospital study, they monitor his antibody levels at intervals. Soon after he got the vaccine (I think a month or two after) they told him his antibody levels were off the charts, the doctors joked he's now super human. Obviously antibodies will wane with time, but it does seem that the Moderna vaccine tends to result in higher antibody levels.
> 
> My current concern with getting the third shot is that community spread is incredibly high! I'm not sure how safe these vaccination clinics are. I'm going to wait and try to get a better sense of the level of covid out there, but unfortunately with reporting breaking down, we also seem to have no idea how much is circulating. I really don't want to pack myself into a clinic along with other people.
> 
> So I'm holding off on getting my third shot. Not because I'm anti vax at all, but I'm really not sure how safe it is to go into those settings. Plus they usually make us *remove* our good quality N95 masks, and that scares the sh*t out of me. I walk in with an N95, they make me remove it and give me a junky (useless) surgical mask.
> 
> I won't even walk into a grocery store with a surgical mask, so I sure as hell am not going to walk into a mass vaccination center with only a surgical mask. But that has been the policy until now... no N95 masks allowed. WTF?


James, I would get the shot. maybe Book an appointment first thing in the morning. we’ve followed europe through much of this, and the WHO is saying half of Europe’s pop. Will get COVID in the next 6-8 weeks. i’m sure the same will happen here.

the odds of getting it in A controlled environment like a clinic, is extremely small. I’d say grocery shopping is more risky With all the things you’re touching.

can you get a shot at a pharmacy in BC, which is likely quieter.


----------



## bgc_fan

Plugging Along said:


> This is exactly where I am at now. Spouse is confirmed, kids and I have symptoms, but have tested negative using the rapid test. I was eligible for a PCR, and just tested negative (I was able to get in within 24 hours by luck).
> 
> When I went through the self assessment on our health site, I got this message. My spouse was not eligible for testing. Not quite sure what Sotrovimab is though.


Sotrovimab is one of the monoclonal antibody treatments for covid. It's actually the only treatment that seems effective against omicron, the other two currently in use do not seem to be effective.




__





Most monoclonal antibody treatments fail against omicron, other in short supply


Two of the three monoclonal antibody treatments used to prevent COVID-19 patients from becoming severely sick don't appear to be effective against the omicron coronavirus variant, The New York Times reported Dec. 21.




www.beckershospitalreview.com


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> can you get a shot at a pharmacy in BC, which is likely quieter.


Good question. I'm going to start looking into this.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> How do you know which one you would get? Is it spelled out at the time of booking?


It was stated for the first two shots when you made the appoitment here. However, a few that have got boosters here said they were told 30+ get Moderna by default. One friend who went in today and said "Nope, my Doctor said I should get pfizer" ... so they gave her pfizer.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Half of people offered Moderna vaccine refuse it if they want Pfizer, Ontario pharmacists say
"They may cancel their appointment. They may walk out," said Justin Bates, CEO of the Ontario Pharmacists Association. *
When they sit down in the chair, they immediately confirm [they're getting Pfizer] with me," said Allan Grill, who has been administering vaccines in York Region, north of Toronto, and is chief of family medicine at Markham Stouffville Hospital. 

"They only want Pfizer."
*


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-moderna-vaccine-pfizer-booster-1.6306892


*


----------



## damian13ster

Pfizer is lower dose so it makes sense.
NHS study showing Moderna gives you 12 times higher risk of acute heart problems than infection does (for males under 40).
People have legit reason to refuse. Moderna should not be given to young people.


----------



## Plugging Along

damian13ster said:


> Pfizer is lower dose so it makes sense.
> NHS study showing Moderna gives you 12 times higher risk of acute heart problems than infection does (for males under 40).
> People have legit reason to refuse. Moderna should not be given to young people.


i was too the dosage for Monderna booster is 25 mcg (half of the origina) and 30 mcg for Pfizer (I believe that is the same as the first two)


----------



## james4beach

Here are Ontario's reports for adverse events, side effects for the vaccines. The latest PDF.

The data does show that more adverse events (more side effects) are reported for Moderna vs Pfizer, so that could be why people prefer Pfizer. However I think what people may not be aware of is that many of those reported side effects, like swelling and discomfort, are rather minor.

Among SERIOUS side effects, shown in Table 1, the per capita side effect rates of the two MRNA shots are very similar.

Table A2 is also pretty interesting, a breakdown of the major side effects and their rates per 100,000 doses. *There are only a few types of side effects where Moderna shows higher rates than Pfizer:*

Pain/redness/swelling at injection site
Rash
Fever
*Slightly higher* myocarditis/pericarditis
So the worse side effects that are showing for Moderna are mostly in pretty unimportant areas. Yes there is slightly higher myocarditis/pericarditis but it's not a huge difference, and the rates -- in ABSOLUTE terms -- are quite low.

Moderna also has lower rates of certain side effects. It appears to be safer in terms of: anaesthesia, arthritis, *anaphylaxis*

Anaphylaxis can be fatal, it's a very serious side effect and Pfizer is actually more dangerous in this respect!

I suspect people are just going by brand recognition. It's possible some people are worried about the readily apparent side effects (like pain and fever) which certainly are more common with Moderna. So yeah, I can see why a person wouldn't want the discomfort. Personally I think those are minor, certainly aren't serious or severe side effects.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Moderna also has lower rates of certain side effects. It appears to be safer in terms of: anaesthesia, arthritis, *anaphylaxis*
> 
> Anaphylaxis can be fatal, it's a very serious side effect and Pfizer is actually more dangerous in this respect!


So you should take Moderna because Pfizer is riskier and can be fatal.
But if you don't get vaccinated, we should ostracize you from society?


----------



## damian13ster

"Take Ontario as an example — between 1990 and 2017, the province saw its population increase 36 per cent. At the same time, its hospital bed count fell from 33,403 to 18,571. Hospitals were operating at 130 per cent capacity, even before the pandemic.

At 2.5 beds per 1000 inhabitants, Canada compares poorly to countries like France (5.8 beds) and Germany (7.9)."

This is how we got here


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> Here are Ontario's reports for adverse events, side effects for the vaccines. The latest PDF.
> 
> The data does show that more adverse events (more side effects) are reported for Moderna vs Pfizer, so that could be why people prefer Pfizer. However I think what people may not be aware of is that many of those reported side effects, like swelling and discomfort, are rather minor.
> 
> Among SERIOUS side effects, shown in Table 1, the per capita side effect rates of the two MRNA shots are very similar.
> 
> Table A2 is also pretty interesting, a breakdown of the major side effects and their rates per 100,000 doses. *There are only a few types of side effects where Moderna shows higher rates than Pfizer:*
> 
> Pain/redness/swelling at injection site
> Rash
> Fever
> *Slightly higher* myocarditis/pericarditis
> So the worse side effects that are showing for Moderna are mostly in pretty unimportant areas. Yes there is slightly higher myocarditis/pericarditis but it's not a huge difference, and the rates -- in ABSOLUTE terms -- are quite low.
> 
> Moderna also has lower rates of certain side effects. It appears to be safer in terms of: anaesthesia, arthritis, *anaphylaxis*
> 
> Anaphylaxis can be fatal, it's a very serious side effect and Pfizer is actually more dangerous in this respect!
> 
> I suspect people are just going by brand recognition. It's possible some people are worried about the readily apparent side effects (like pain and fever) which certainly are more common with Moderna. So yeah, I can see why a person wouldn't want the discomfort. Personally I think those are minor, certainly aren't serious or severe side effects.


The way it is counted in Canada is not trustworthy. Same with COVID deaths. IMHO the way UK is counting it (and Peru as well, although they went to far) is more optimal.
In Canada it is subjective, in UK objective, as described in the following study:









An evaluation of the association between COVID vaccination and myocarditis in 42 million people aged 13 or older


A new study posted to the medRxiv* pre-print server included individuals over 13 years of age receiving the third vaccine dose to further evaluate the association between myocarditis and COVID-19 vaccination or infection. The study took place from December 1, 2020, to November 15, 2021.




www.news-medical.net













Risk of myocarditis following sequential COVID-19 vaccinations by age and sex


In an updated self-controlled case series analysis of 42,200,614 people aged 13 years or more, we evaluate the association between COVID-19 vaccination and myocarditis, stratified by age and sex, including 10,978,507 people receiving a third vaccine dose. Myocarditis risk was increased during...




www.medrxiv.org


----------



## sags

Our local hospitals are near or at maximum ICU capacity. They can create more beds but don't have staff to look after the patients.

Hospitalizations, ICU patients, and deaths are all up. LTC homes have outbreaks and 5 LTC residents died from covid.

The next month is going to be rough. I doubt our schools will stay open long. We will see what Flip Flop Ford decides.


----------



## sags

In Ontario, the NDP and Liberals are forming a joint committee to address the systemic healthcare problems.


----------



## Eder

damian13ster said:


> At 2.5 beds per 1000 inhabitants, Canada compares poorly to countries like France (5.8 beds) and Germany (7.9)."


The USA is at 2.6 beds/1000 and you can easily get care.


----------



## Spudd

Eder said:


> The USA is at 2.6 beds/1000 and you can easily get care.


This article says many hospital systems are in crisis scenarios.








U.S. COVID hospitalizations hit new record high, raising risks for patients


There are more patients and, in some places, not enough health care workers to go around. Research shows the crowding will impact care and increase mortality for all patients.




www.npr.org


----------



## Mortgage u/w

We're soon approaching 1 year since the first vaccines were made available. Do we still refer to it as a 3rd booster?


----------



## james4beach

It sounds to me like the healthcare system is collapsing. Here in BC, various labs which conduct testing (standard blood work) are now closing down due to insufficient staff, everyone out sick. All kinds of surgeries are cancelled of course.

Basically one can't get medical care for a wide range of issues.

Mind you, similar things are happening in the US so I don't consider this Canada-specific. It's just a bad situation.


----------



## Eder

CT scan is as easy as booking online for the afternoon in LA. $280 for a neck/throat...fast cheap...they give you the image right away...report emailed in a couple days...Canada has never been able to do that.


----------



## sags

So you get the results of the scans.......then what ?

It isn't hard to get a CT scan here. The problem is getting treatment with a specialist.

There are long wait lists for surgeries and other treatments for people with their imaging results already known.

What we need is a big expansion of the treatment part of the healthcare system, as in surgeons, operating rooms, recovery rooms, OR nurses etc.

We need to increase taxes to pay for it.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> We need to increase taxes to pay for it.


Nope, we need to eliminate wasteful spending. 

I have long felt, that if all levels of government would simply send me their budgets after they have worked through every machination possible, I would gladly make all the changes necessary to not only balance, but come out ahead with enough funds to assign to the healthcare system. It would be so easy. The amount of foolish spending boggles the mind.

ltr


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Good idea actually. Also include obese, smokers, drinkers.
*Quebec wants to tax people unvaccinated against COVID-19.*


----------



## Eder

Include hypertension tax due to watching Fox/CNN/CBC


----------



## Beaver101

^ & ^^ ... no, Legault was very specific about that "tax" - it's a contribution from anti-vaxxers for the continuous hogging and holding up of its healthcare system. 

Not sure how he is gonna to collect it though .. perhaps right at the emergency doors. No vax, no problem. Just be sure to have your credit card(s) aside from your healthcard.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> It sounds to me like the healthcare system is collapsing. Here in BC, various labs which conduct testing (standard blood work) are now closing down due to insufficient staff, everyone out sick. All kinds of surgeries are cancelled of course.
> 
> Basically one can't get medical care for a wide range of issues.
> 
> Mind you, similar things are happening in the US so I don't consider this Canada-specific. *It's just a bad situation.*


 ... that's only gonna to get worst. 

Hell, some on this forum (the geniuses who like to play doctors, scientists, medical virological experts) already self-diagnose, self-medicate and self-heal right from/on the internet.


----------



## damian13ster

They will not stop until someone snaps and a politician gets murdered?
This is ridiculous, impossible to implement, and will not be done.
Austria already gave up on theirs.

Can you imagine every single citizens private medical information being sent to CRA?
CRA has a cybersecurity equivalent to a colander


----------



## ian

Ukrainiandude said:


> Good idea actually. Also include obese, smokers, drinkers.
> *Quebec wants to tax people unvaccinated against COVID-19.*


One slight difference is that obese people, smokers, drinkers, etc do no pass this to others. People who are not vaccinated have a higher chance of doing so.

My guess is that this is just a threat designed to get people to the vac clinic. The admin cost and or collection cost might outweigh the benefit. Who knows?

Recent news reports seem to indicate that Quebec's move to require covid passports for entry to Government SAQ liquor and marijuana stores is having positive effect on demand for first covid shot.


----------



## damian13ster

You can't use argument about it being contagious. Data shows that since Omicron took over vaccinated are getting infected at higher rate than unvaccinated.
That's a fact which makes your argument completely invalid


----------



## Ukrainiandude

ian said:


> One slight difference is that obese people, smokers, drinkers, etc do no pass this to others.


One big similarity all overwhelm health care system and cost taxpayers dearly


----------



## damian13ster

Yep. They are literally destroying public healthcare. Now you will get charged for being a burden to society. Apparently that is constitutional. Watch out drug abusers, homeless people, cancer patients, obese, smokers, low-class. Your healthcare is no longer constitutionally protected.

edit: to be precise, you were never protected, we just didnt know about it


----------



## sags

Smokers and drinkers already pay high "sin" taxes on the products.


----------



## sags

The easy solution for anti-vaxxers is to ignore all the BS and get vaccine shots.


----------



## Synergy

Ukrainiandude said:


> Good idea actually. Also include obese, smokers, drinkers.
> *Quebec wants to tax people unvaccinated against COVID-19.*


That sounds good to me! A good portion of doctors and nurses can't even take proper care of themselves. You'd think they'd know better. 

We can make it a progressive tax as there are levels of dumbass in society. Our hospitals are bloated with preventable issues. We don't need more doctors and nurses, we need less sick people. It's like throwing more money into a dysfunctional system.

We are heading down a slippery slope!


----------



## damian13ster

You are trying to reinvent the wheel 😂
There already exists a perfect system for what you are saying- it is called private healthcare and insurance


----------



## Synergy

ian said:


> One slight difference is that obese people, smokers, drinkers, etc do no pass this to others.


Are you not familiar with 2nd and 3rd hand smoke. Try putting an obese person into a stretcher - high rate of back issues amongst paramedics! Drunk drivers, most of us know someone that has lost a friend or family member. The list goes on...

They are not simply doing harm to themselves. They are a continued burden to society in more ways than one. One could argue much more so than the small number of unvaccinated individuals.

We have issues that go far beyond COVID.


----------



## damian13ster

Quebec increasing their tax base.









Quebec to require three shots for 'adequate protection', those who got COVID-19 urged to get boosted sooner


Quebec public health released new directives for people to get boosted 'as soon as possible,' including those who recently had COVID-19, as the province prepares to make three doses the minimum to be considered 'adequately protected.'




montreal.ctvnews.ca






Welcome in the group of anti-vaxxers, conspiracy theorists, and science deniers for those with two shots 😅 😅 😅


----------



## james4beach

So far this thread has 23 pages in the first 12 days of the year.

That suggests the thread will eventually be 700 pages long.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> So far this thread has 23 pages in the first 12 days of the year.
> 
> That suggests the thread will eventually be 700 pages long.


 ... I think it'll go longer or as long as the pandemic goes. Looking on the bright side, the CM"F" may win the world's record for the longest thread.

Seriously, if the thread can't handle that many pages, how about splitting it into 2 parts, like A and B?


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Quebec increasing their tax base.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quebec to require three shots for 'adequate protection', those who got COVID-19 urged to get boosted sooner
> 
> 
> Quebec public health released new directives for people to get boosted 'as soon as possible,' including those who recently had COVID-19, as the province prepares to make three doses the minimum to be considered 'adequately protected.'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montreal.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome in the group of anti-vaxxers, conspiracy theorists, and science deniers for those with two shots 😅 😅 😅


 ... hey, I thought vaxxers were already designated as the sheep people/group.


----------



## Beaver101

Soaring COVID-19 cases renew U.S. debate over mask mandates

I think the rest of the world ain't gonna to see a 3M N95 mask, let alone buy one in the forseeable future once the USA decides with a mask mandate for all its states.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> Soaring COVID-19 cases renew U.S. debate over mask mandates
> 
> I think the rest of the world ain't gonna to see a 3M N95 mask, let alone buy one in the forseeable future once the USA decides with a mask mandate for all its states.


When I got to Florida during the last week of December, you could get N95s for $0.30. Now they’re $1.

In addition to the WHO, Fauci also saying everyone will get omicron soon.


----------



## sags

_Of those hospitalized, 54 per cent were admitted seeking treatment for COVID-19, while 45 per cent were for other reasons but later tested positive for the illness, according to data from the Ministry of Health. That data does not list a breakdown for previous waves of the virus for comparison.

As of Wednesday, there are 505 people with COVID-19 in ICUs, up from 477 the day before and 288 one week ago.

*Approximately 83 per cent were admitted to the ICU seeking treatment for COVID-19 *and 17 per cent were admitted for other reasons but have tested positive for the illness, according to the dataset. _


----------



## Eder

ian said:


> People who are not vaccinated have a higher chance of doing so.


Actual data rather than wishful thinking suggests otherwise.

At any rate it looks like Ontario won't go the way of Quebec









Have your say: Should Ontario also implement a tax for unvaccinated people?


Quebec’s Premier François Legault announced a health tax for the unvaccinated on Tuesday, one day after the resignation of the province’s top public health official.




www.thestar.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*COVID-19 in Sask.: ICU admissions reach lowest level since mid Aug.
No new deaths reported Wednesday*


----------



## james4beach

The EU is warning against repeated booster shots. Here's the article from Bloomberg: EU warns repeat boosters could weaken immune system

The European Medicines Agency warns that repeated boosters every 4 months could eventually weaken the immune system. "*Instead, countries should leave more time between booster programs and tie them to the onset of the cold season in each hemisphere*, following the blueprint set out by influenza vaccination strategies, the agency said."

There are quite a few medical experts across the country that have argued that boosters _shouldn't_ be rushed. Bonnie Henry in BC was one of these people, and she insisted on sticking with the original 6 month interval. In fact Henry was advocating for 8 months (for healthy people). I've heard immunologists in Ontario also arguing for spacing these out and not giving boosters unnecessarily.

As we scramble to deal with these emergency situations, we have to think about the longer term. Spacing out the intervals between these shots is known to give a more robust long-term immunity.









Frequent boosters spur warning on immune response - BNN Bloomberg


European Union regulators warned that frequent COVID-19 booster shots could adversely affect the immune response and may not be feasible.




www.bnnbloomberg.ca


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> booster shots.


Oh no no. We need to promote boosters. 

*Canada has ordered more than 400 million COVID-19 vaccine shots: Here's the progress report


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-vaccine-deliveries-progress-report-1.6034624


*


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> When I got to Florida during the last week of December, you could get N95s for $0.30. Now they’re $1.


 ... I mentioned "rest of the world". USA will have no problem with supplies since they're the producers and now the hoggers. Even my relatives in mid-USA are not seeing them unless they work in the hospitals (a couple of them are MDs) of which the hospitals are keeping tabs on. 



> In addition to the WHO, Fauci also saying everyone will get omicron soon.


 ... don't think so ... there'll be those who live remotely, far away from society who will be Covid-free as long as they stay that way.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> Oh no no. We need to promote boosters.
> 
> *Canada has ordered more than 400 million COVID-19 vaccine shots: Here's the progress report*


 ... yep, paid for by your tax dollars ... only to be donated elsewhere in the world. I think that's cool.


----------



## Eder

Canada will allow unvaccinated Canadian truckers to cross in from the United States, reversing a decision requiring all truckers to be inoculated against the coronavirus, Canada’s border agency said on Wednesday. 

Now they need to extend this glimmer of reasonableness to all Canadians.


----------



## MK7GTI

For those of you who still believe vaccines will end this current situation or that the unvaccinated are still the problem.


----------



## bgc_fan

A bit of a tangent, but apparently there was a decrease in self-harm or overdose in Ontario for youths, during the pandemic. Doesn't seem to be what mainstream media portrays, but maybe it's an Ontario thing only, and it's only for those born between 1990 and 2006. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2787976


----------



## Beaver101

Scores of unvaccinated workers are filing wrongful dismissal claims against employers, lawyers say

Nothing easier than filling up the pockets of (employment) lawyers.


----------



## Eder

Many of these lawyers will sue these cases with out retainer.


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> Many of these lawyers will sue these cases with out retainer.


 ... how do you know? Are you one, one with a bleeding heart? 

Even without a retainer, the standard one third contingency fee will net you what maximum payout (a BIG "IF" successful)? A few millions?

It would be interesting to see just how many CEOs are on this list of "sue for wrongful dismal due to vax mandate". LMAO.


----------



## sags

Suing for severance pay isn't going to be much of a windfall and it will take a couple of years to wind through the courts.

If the plaintiffs lose the case, they could be ordered to pay the employer's legal expenses.


----------



## damian13ster

Cases are starting to drop in Ontario.
Vaccinated still getting infected at higher rate than unvaccinated


----------



## sags

According to those statistics, the difference in infections indicates the unvaccinated are more likely to become infected.

We also know the unvaccinated are far more likely to require intensive ICU care and suffer more serious negative effects of covid.

They also require more time in hospital to recover and use substantially more healthcare resources.

Viral mutations also spread among the unvaccinated and are a constant threat to the world.

Vaccination is the path out of the global pandemic. Global vaccination should be one of the the highest priorities.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> According to those statistics, the difference in infections indicates the unvaccinated are more likely to become infected.


 ... it's pretty obvious the unvaccinated is more likely to become infected and severely so 'cause they have never been infected whether via natural infection or innoculation (aka vaccination).

Right now, it's obvious the vaccinateds make up the bulk of the infections (which doesn't require a statistical PHD to figure out) because the majority of the population has been vaccinated plus the spread is still there.

What'll be interesting(?) to see is the death trend between the vaccinateds and the unvaccinateds. Unfortunately, today's CP24 news (for Ontario) stating 35 new Covid deaths is at an all time high doesn't distinguish between the vax and non-vax. But by common logic, one can accurately guess that number is attributed from the unvaxxeds. Oh well, their choice.


----------



## sags

Since most of the ICU cases are unvaccinated, it makes sense that most of the deaths would also be unvaccinated.


----------



## damian13ster

The data shows infection rate per 100,000 population.
It is adjusted to the vaccination rate.

It clearly shows that vaccinated are getting infected at higher RATE.
Per 100,000 vaccinated people you have more infected than in group of 100,000 unvaccinated people.
Are you really not capable of reading basic plot?

Vaccinated are infected with omicron at higher rate than unvaccinated.
You might want to reconsider inviting vaccinated people to your gathering


----------



## OptsyEagle

Why is anyone looking at infections when we have already been told that they will be misleading. Since the government hit their capacity limit there will be too much selection involved, in the people who get tested, for them to shed light on any conclusions

2ndly, posting a point of view twice does not make the point twice as correct, and doing it at nausea just makes the point nauseating.


----------



## damian13ster

It isn't a point of view. It is data. Factual data. It is posted twice because people who don't have capability of reading graphs with comprehension were misinterpreting.

Also, it is extremely important fact, because it puts entire public policy at question. It is no longer based on science.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> It isn't a point of view. It is data. Factual data. It is posted twice because people who don't have capability of reading graphs with comprehension were misinterpreting.
> 
> Also, it is extremely important fact, because it puts entire public policy at question. It is no longer based on science.


If people are relying on covid information from a someone on a financial forum ... well, good luck to them.


----------



## sags

According to statistics, the unvaccinated are far more likely to become infected and spread it to others.


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> If people are relying on covid information from a someone on a financial forum ... well, good luck to them.


Haha, you think people take crayons, make their own graphs and post it........






Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Haha, you think people take crayons, make their own graphs and post it........


Nope, just saying that people should get covid information from their local government.


----------



## like_to_retire

Science Table COVID-19 Advisory For Ontario


----------



## james4beach

Quebec just announced they think they have hit a peak in cases. That suggests a peak in hospital within ~ 2 weeks.

Quebec was one of the first provinces in the current wave so this helps give a rough timeline for other provinces. Unfortunately other provinces are far behind and still have a few weeks to go before hitting their peaks.


----------



## Beaver101

like_to_retire said:


> Science Table COVID-19 Advisory For Ontario
> 
> View attachment 22671


 ... thanks. Pretty clear which party is accounting for most of the cases, hospitalisations and ICU cloggings ... in Ontario of course.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Quebec just announced they think they have hit a peak in cases. That suggests a peak in hospital within ~ 2 weeks.
> 
> Quebec was one of the first provinces in the current wave so this helps give a rough timeline for other provinces. Unfortunately other provinces are far behind and still have a few weeks to go before hitting their peaks.


 ... lets hope Quebec's health officials are correct with their estimation here.

Quebec to lift COVID-19 curfew Monday, extend vaccine passport to retail

Noted in the same article:


> ..._ Legault also announced that the province's vaccine passport *will be extended to big box retail stores, *except for grocery stores and pharmacies. _...


 ... boing.

Imagine the unvaxxed needs to go to Home Depot to get a new snow shovel so he/she can dig their car out - to go to - where? ... so maybe there ain't a requirement for that.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Cases are starting to drop in Ontario.








Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca




It only tracks positive PCR tests, and that data wasn't adjusted for the change in test protocol

Nor does it account for RapidTest positives, which aren't tracked.

I think that cases in hospitals offer the best proxy for spread, and they're still going up.

I think it is possible cases could be dropping, but I don't have clear data on that.
I think there was a bit of a holiday surge but I think the number of people I know/interact with COVID today is roughly comparable to those who had it last week.

My feeling is that there might have been a mini holiday transmission peak that hit a few days ago, but I fully expect that the kids back to school will result in a second peak.


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> Canada will allow unvaccinated Canadian truckers to cross in from the United States, reversing a decision requiring all truckers to be inoculated against the coronavirus, Canada’s border agency said on Wednesday.
> 
> Now they need to extend this glimmer of reasonableness to all Canadians.


 ... maybe you spoke too soon. The latest news on this is an "oops!!!!".

Ottawa to go ahead with trucker vaccine mandate after stating it would scrap it



> _The Canadian Press, Last Updated Thursday, January 13, 2022 5:10PM EST
> 
> MONTREAL - The federal government says the vaccine mandate for truckers crossing into Canada from the United States will come into effect this Saturday as planned, despite a previous statement from the Canada Border Services Agency that said Canadian truck drivers would be exempt.
> 
> In a release today, Health Minister Jean-Yves Duclos along with the transport and public safety ministers say the *CBSA statement from Wednesday evening was “provided in error,” and that Canadian truckers must be vaccinated if they want to avoid quarantine and a pre-arrival molecular test, starting this weekend.*
> 
> The cabinet ministers say unvaccinated American big-riggers will be turned back at the border, with the U.S. preparing to impose similar restrictions on Canadian truckers on Jan. 22.
> 
> Government representatives offered no explanation for the incorrect information emailed to media more than 20 hours earlier.
> 
> ..._


----------



## Money172375

Measuring cases in Ontario is useless as only a select few groups are permitted to get a test.


----------



## damian13ster

like_to_retire said:


> Science Table COVID-19 Advisory For Ontario
> 
> View attachment 22671


Those graphs look nice!
But where is the underlying data? What do they look at, what time period?
Because the data it is showing is not current. It is not current for cases, it is not current for hospitalizations, and it is not current for ICU. Data from Alpha/Beta/and largely Delta is completely irrelevant

There is underlying data for data I provide. Today's cases: 7753 fully vaccinated. 1336 cases unvaccinated.
The breakdown day by day is in Ontario dashboard.
Unfortunately for hospitalizations they do show breakdown, but not historical values by vaccination status so one can't examine the exact trend. For now unvaccinated represent around 22% of population and 32% of COVID hospitalizations so they are overrepresented, simply nowhere near what the graphs are showing.

Quebec: 22% unvaccinated, 28% hospitalizations 45% ICU


----------



## damian13ster

Polish scientists find gene that doubles risk of serious COVID-19


Polish scientists have found a gene that they say more than doubles the risk of becoming severely ill with COVID-19, a discovery they hope could help doctors identify people who are most at risk from the disease.




www.ctvnews.ca





Well, ****. This is it. Every Quebecer line up for mandatory gene sequencing. Results immediately sent to CRA.
If you are one of unlucky ones and have higher risk of needing healthcare system - extra tax


----------



## sags

The ER doctors say almost every patient they admit for covid is unvaccinated.


----------



## cainvest

like_to_retire said:


> Science Table COVID-19 Advisory For Ontario
> 
> View attachment 22671


Sure shows the vaccines are doing their job!


----------



## Plugging Along

As a follow up to post #385 My Covid Experience so far

Spouse is feeling a lot better, day 3&4 were really rough, day 5 he sounded awful but said he felt not bad. Today is day 6. He is officially out of isolation, but sticking around home. He still has a lingering cough and feels run down.
Oldest - rapid tested today (day 5) and NEGATIVE. She was feeling the worse out of everyone. Yesterday and the day before (day 3, 4), she had a fever. chills, sore throat, cough and was out. No appetite. I was quite concerned for her. Yet, she had tested negative again. I called the doctor for an online consult, she says it could be viral but we will monitor for strep. 
Youngest - we tested Sunday & Tuesday (day 1) and she was negative. She had a little sore throat when she came home on Tuesday day. Wednesday (day 2) She felt horrible, fever, sore throat, tired, similar to the oldest, but not as bad. Tested again today (day 3) and she showed up positive.
Myself - Slight tickle in throat Sunday, tested negative, assumed I had sympathy covid. Monday (day 1) - felt really run down and really sore throat, did a full PCR test Negative. Wednesday (day 3) - felt awful, stayed in bed all day with cough, sore throat, and sweats. Thursday (day 4) today - rapid test negative. Called the docter, she wants me to give it until the weekend see if it breaks. She thinks that I may have a small viral load for covid that isn't picking up, but the booster is doing it's job.

So what do infer from my families experience

Seems that subtle symptoms show up about 3 days after exposure.
Worst days are 3-4 after symptoms start
Rapid testing shouldn't be done too soon after exposure. Wait at least day 2 or 3, but isolate in the meantime.
Booster shots work

Honestly, the hardest part now is keeping everyone still isolated. Once I knew my spouse was okay to take care of the kids, I should have just ripped off the masks and let nature take its course. However, because my oldest and I have something different, the doctor doesn't think it's a great idea for our bodies to fight two things at the same time. If my oldest and I were well, I think I would have just stopped isolating all of us when I knew spouse was going to be okay (need one adult to take care of things) Now, my youngest and spouse get to binge netflix and video games together, while the oldest and I are lonely. Thanks for reading.


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> As a follow up to post #385 My Covid Experience so far


Thanks for sharing. Keep in mind that rapid tests are not very accurate. They can only be used to confirm that one is positive but can't be used to confirm that someone is covid-free. In other words

rapid test positive = you definitely have COVID
rapid test negative = not much information, suggests no COVID, with high error rate

Hope your family feels better soon. I do agree it's best to isolate and wear masks as much as possible, because the last thing you want is multiple infections.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> Thanks for sharing. Keep in mind that rapid tests are not very accurate. They can only be used to confirm that one is positive but can't be used to confirm that someone is covid-free. In other words
> 
> rapid test positive = you definitely have COVID
> rapid test negative = not much information, suggests no COVID, with high error rate
> 
> Hope your family feels better soon. I do agree it's best to isolate and wear masks as much as possible, because the last thing you want is multiple infections.


yes false negative happens often when the viral load isn’t enough. However , when their are symptoms and multiple testing, then the false negative should be reduced. That’s why I suggest testing day 1 and 3 o sympms. I also had a PCR which is rare for false. results.


----------



## damian13ster

Plugging Along said:


> As a follow up to post #385 My Covid Experience so far
> 
> Spouse is feeling a lot better, day 3&4 were really rough, day 5 he sounded awful but said he felt not bad. Today is day 6. He is officially out of isolation, but sticking around home. He still has a lingering cough and feels run down.
> Oldest - rapid tested today (day 5) and NEGATIVE. She was feeling the worse out of everyone. Yesterday and the day before (day 3, 4), she had a fever. chills, sore throat, cough and was out. No appetite. I was quite concerned for her. Yet, she had tested negative again. I called the doctor for an online consult, she says it could be viral but we will monitor for strep.
> Youngest - we tested Sunday & Tuesday (day 1) and she was negative. She had a little sore throat when she came home on Tuesday day. Wednesday (day 2) She felt horrible, fever, sore throat, tired, similar to the oldest, but not as bad. Tested again today (day 3) and she showed up positive.
> Myself - Slight tickle in throat Sunday, tested negative, assumed I had sympathy covid. Monday (day 1) - felt really run down and really sore throat, did a full PCR test Negative. Wednesday (day 3) - felt awful, stayed in bed all day with cough, sore throat, and sweats. Thursday (day 4) today - rapid test negative. Called the docter, she wants me to give it until the weekend see if it breaks. She thinks that I may have a small viral load for covid that isn't picking up, but the booster is doing it's job.
> 
> So what do infer from my families experience
> 
> Seems that subtle symptoms show up about 3 days after exposure.
> Worst days are 3-4 after symptoms start
> Rapid testing shouldn't be done too soon after exposure. Wait at least day 2 or 3, but isolate in the meantime.
> Booster shots work
> 
> Honestly, the hardest part now is keeping everyone still isolated. Once I knew my spouse was okay to take care of the kids, I should have just ripped off the masks and let nature take its course. However, because my oldest and I have something different, the doctor doesn't think it's a great idea for our bodies to fight two things at the same time. If my oldest and I were well, I think I would have just stopped isolating all of us when I knew spouse was going to be okay (need one adult to take care of things) Now, my youngest and spouse get to binge netflix and video games together, while the oldest and I are lonely. Thanks for reading.


Sheesh, now we know where all the tests disappeared!

In all seriousness though, happy that everyone is doing relatively well!


----------



## Plugging Along

damian13ster said:


> Sheesh, now we know where all the tests disappeared!
> 
> In all seriousness though, happy that everyone is doing relatively well!


No,. I started sourcing my test in oct/novas a precaution. I paid $275 for my home test to ensure we are safe. I also had sources from the US and overseas too. So I am definitely not causing any shortages. 

My biggest thing is that we don’t cross infect each with covid and strep or whatever we had I could only image if we end up being the next variant. I wish we only had one illness to deal with.


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> No,. I started sourcing my test in oct/novas a precaution. I paid $275 for my home test to ensure we are safe. I also had sources from the US and overseas too. So I am definitely not causing any shortages.


Smart move and nice job! It's called being prepared.

I have a big supply of CAN95 masks myself, I bought them while everyone else was partying and trying to pretend covid didn't exist.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> yes false negative happens often when the viral load isn’t enough. However , when their are symptoms and multiple testing, then the false negative should be reduced. That’s why I suggest testing day 1 and 3 o sympms. I also had a PCR which is rare for false. results.


I know a family that was in isolation, dad got 3 negative PCR tests, then 3 other family members got positive rapid tests.

I think the false negative rate is too high.


----------



## Beaver101

Vaughan woman with Stage 4 colon cancer has surgery postponed indefinitely 'because of the situation with COVID-19'

This is terrible.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*COVID-19 in Sask.: No deaths reported, lowest number of ICU patients since July*
*8 people now in ICU with COVID-19, down from 11 on Thursday


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/covid-19-in-sask-jan-14-1.6315670


*


----------



## bgc_fan

For those worried about getting myocarditis from the vaccine, they tend to forget that you have a higher chance of developing it if you get covid.








Davies (myocarditis) to miss next three World Cup qualifiers - TSN.ca


Canada Soccer confirmed the expected on Friday afternoon, announcing that Alphonso Davies will miss the team's three matches in the upcoming CONCACAF World Cup qualifying window.




www.tsn.ca





A top athlete at 21 years old at that.


----------



## zinfit

Yes private enterprise in the healthcare system is wonderful. Thank you PE for the ventialors that keep the unvaccinated in the ICUs alive. Thank Moderna and Phizer for their live saving vaccines . Free enterprise is alive and well. Not to leave the anti-vaxxers on the outside thank you Merck for Invermechin.


----------



## zinfit

Spudd said:


> This article says many hospital systems are in crisis scenarios.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. COVID hospitalizations hit new record high, raising risks for patients
> 
> 
> There are more patients and, in some places, not enough health care workers to go around. Research shows the crowding will impact care and increase mortality for all patients.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


I wonder about this article . I spend my winter in a poor county in Texas with a population of 900,000. It has based on past surges a 1CU capacity of about 320. Alberta with a population of 4 million has about 390 for ICU capacity. From what I can see Quebec ICU capacity is something like 400. There is no hospital capacity problem in this county. Last I checked they had 43 in ICU. I am quite certain the USA has a much larger hospital capacity. I can count hospitals in Calgary and come up with 4. In my Texas County I can county 7 separate hospital systems. I am not trying to defend the USA system but I do believe that an unintended consequences is the US has a much larger hospital capacity.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> For those worried about getting myocarditis from the vaccine, they tend to forget that you have a higher chance of developing it if you get covid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Davies (myocarditis) to miss next three World Cup qualifiers - TSN.ca
> 
> 
> Canada Soccer confirmed the expected on Friday afternoon, announcing that Alphonso Davies will miss the team's three matches in the upcoming CONCACAF World Cup qualifying window.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tsn.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A top athlete at 21 years old at that.


He is fully vaccinated
And also, no. If you are male under 40 you are 12 times as likely to get myocarditis after 2nd dose of Moderna than after COVID


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> He is fully vaccinated
> And also, no. If you are male under 40 you are 12 times as likely to get myocarditis after 2nd dose of Moderna than after COVID


I did a Google search and I don't find any study from a credible source that would support your statement. The British had a study of 38 million people and concluded between 1 to 4 cases of myocarditis per one million for the vaccinated and 40 cases per million for the unvaccinated. The CDC data doesn't support your claims. The CDC says the unvaccinated are 16times greater chance then the vaccinated.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> I did a Google search and I don't find any study from a credible source that would support your statement. The British had a study of 38 million people and concluded between 1 to 4 cases of myocarditis per one million for the vaccinated and 40 cases per million for the unvaccinated. The CDC data doesn't support your claims.


Posted here multiple times but clearly you repress any memory that doesn't support your predetermined point of view



https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1.full.pdf


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> Posted here multiple times but clearly you repress any memory that doesn't support your predetermined point of view
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1.full.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 22674





damian13ster said:


> Posted here multiple times but clearly you repress any memory that doesn't support your predetermined point of view
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1.full.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 22674


I will take the CDC report over this supposed study.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> I will take the CDC report over this supposed study.


Would be much more constructive if you actually posted it here.......
Does it break down cases by vaccine type, age, gender? Or treats 5 year old girl. 40 year old trans, and 98yo male the same?

And what does it mean 'supposed' study? Just because you don't like the conclusions you get to deny science?


----------



## londoncalling

Ukrainiandude said:


> *COVID-19 in Sask.: No deaths reported, lowest number of ICU patients since July*
> *8 people now in ICU with COVID-19, down from 11 on Thursday
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/covid-19-in-sask-jan-14-1.6315670
> 
> 
> *


And a day later this.... 

COVID-19 in Sask.: Hospitalizations rise by 19, largest single-day spike since autumn (msn.com)

It's starting to look like the financial porn we see where a report says by this sector and the next day a report comes out to sell the same sector...

My guess is the first report did not have all the data and some of it was included in Saturdays numbers. That's why it is best to use 7 day rolling numbers. Saskatchewan is still the only province to not impose restrictions while having the lowest vaccination rate in the country. This is a much different than the teary eyed premier who was sorry for not acting during the 3rd wave. How quickly we forget. I will acknowledge this wave is different than the ones previous. So it will be interesting to see how this plays out. The hospitals have been preparing for this since Omnicron hit Canada. The schools have sent out messages saying that they may need to implement emergency closures and that classes have been disrupted. They are entertaining moving staff from one school to another. When the nursing homes did that in Ontario it resulted in increasing the spread rate. So much for flattening the curve so that we don't strain our health system. Meanwhile health care workers are bracing for mass exposure to Omnicron as well. The Sask Health Authority has a new CEO. Talk about taking on a challenge in your first couple of weeks. If Omnicron is endemic it will mean short term chaos. For some it will be worth it; For others not so much. If Omicron is not endemic... who knows what's next.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

londoncalling said:


> And a day later this..


What is your point?
The number of people in hospital rose by 19 on Saturday to 150, although the number of ICU patients with COVID-19 remains at 11.








COVID-19: Saskatchewan reports 1,427 new cases Sunday


COVID-19 hospitalizations rose by 19 on Saturday to 150 people, although ICU patients with COVID-19 remain at 11.




leaderpost.com





And this

The remaining *11 people are in intensive care, six of whom are there for COVID-19 related illness*.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/covid-sask-jan-15-1.6316605


----------



## Beaver101

londoncalling said:


> And a day later this....
> 
> COVID-19 in Sask.: Hospitalizations rise by 19, largest single-day spike since autumn (msn.com)
> 
> *It's starting to look like the financial porn we see where a report says by this sector and the next day a report comes out to sell the same sector...*
> 
> My guess is the first report did not have all the data and some of it was included in Saturdays numbers. That's why it is best to use 7 day rolling numbers. Saskatchewan is still the only province to not impose restrictions while having the lowest vaccination rate in the country. This is a much different than the teary eyed premier who was sorry for not acting during the 3rd wave. How quickly we forget. I will acknowledge this wave is different than the ones previous. So it will be interesting to see how this plays out. The hospitals have been preparing for this since Omnicron hit Canada. The schools have sent out messages saying that they may need to implement emergency closures and that classes have been disrupted. They are entertaining moving staff from one school to another. When the nursing homes did that in Ontario it resulted in increasing the spread rate. So much for flattening the curve so that we don't strain our health system. Meanwhile health care workers are bracing for mass exposure to Omnicron as well. The Sask Health Authority has a new CEO. Talk about taking on a challenge in your first couple of weeks. *If Omnicron is endemic it will mean short term chaos. * For some it will be worth it; For others not so much. If Omicron is not endemic... who knows what's next.


 ... and the self-proclaimed wolves are addicted to the bolded part above.

Re Omicron being endemic, pray so it becomes epidemic first, provided a new variant doesn't show up.


----------



## Money172375

I wish we had more details on the co-morbidities for people in hospital and ICU. While in the US, I saw a news report that people in hospital tend to have 4 co-morbidities.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Money172375 said:


> I wish we had more details on the co-morbidities for people in hospital and ICU. While in the US, I saw a news report that people in hospital tend to have 4 co-morbidities.


Those stats are obscured for a reason.


----------



## sags

I depend on the doctors and nurses inside the hospitals to tell us what is going on. There is no doubt vaccination is effective.

_In a letter to the community posted on its website, Bluewater Health in Sarnia said its situation is “the most worrisome yet” of the pandemic that began 22 months ago.

*At the Chatham-Kent Health Alliance, capacity in the medicine and critical-care units was listed at 100.9 per cent Tuesday, with nine of 10 intensive-care unit beds being occupied by COVID patients, along with another six COVID patients in the 12-bed progressive-care unit.

Two patients had to be transferred to a London hospital, officials said.

The Chatham hospital had a record 34 COVID-19 patients, including 25 who were unvaccinated. Fourteen of the 15 patients occupying critical-care beds were also unvaccinated, hospital group chief of staff Dr. Pervez Faruqi said.*

“These figures speak for themselves that *there’s a much higher risk of getting seriously sick and requiring ventilation and critical care in unvaccinated patients,” he said.*

Faruqi urged those who have been on the fence or have chosen not to get vaccinated “to please do so.”

Vaccination is for the benefit of their families, the community and the local health-care system, he said.

At Bluewater Health, *the number of COVID patients has increased to 31 from seven in the past two weeks*, the hospital said.

More than half of its ICU is filled with critically-ill patients with COVID pneumonia, the hospital said, and it had to open a COVID-dedicated medical unit.

“Our ICU is seeing younger COVID patients – many in dire situations. *Most patients with severe COVID disease are not vaccinated yet and we are having end-of-life discussions with families of patients in all age categories – not just older ages*,” the hospital said in the letter from its president Mike Lapaine and chief of staff Dr. Mike Haddad.

More than five times the usual number of staff are on sick leave, the hospital said, and many staff members are working double shifts and cancelling vacations.

“The combination of increased patients and stretched staffing is making it difficult to manage the clinical loads,” the hospital said._









Hospitals in Sarnia, Chatham issue public appeals as they hit COVID wall


Hospitals in Chatham-Kent and Sarnia said Tuesday they're being flooded with critically ill COVID-19 patients and are running out of room to treat them while…




lfpress.com


----------



## sags

Money172375 said:


> I wish we had more details on the co-morbidities for people in hospital and ICU. While in the US, I saw a news report that people in hospital tend to have 4 co-morbidities.


They are almost all unvaccinated in the ICU and ventilators, so that is a dangerous co-morbidity to have.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> I wish we had more details on the co-morbidities for people in hospital and ICU. While in the US, I saw a news report that people in hospital tend to have 4 co-morbidities.





HappilyRetired said:


> Those stats are obscured for a reason.


And if they publish the data, someone will claim it's a coverup.








FYI Christine Elliott is the Ontario Minister of health. Del Duca is the leader of the Liberal party.


----------



## zinfit

myocarditis is a greater risk


Money172375 said:


> I wish we had more details on the co-morbidities for people in hospital and ICU. While in the US, I saw a news report that people in hospital tend to have 4 co-morbidities.


Yes and yes. The ICU data is critical and it isn't easy to find it. The media could do a better job of directing their attention to this data including the vaccination status of such patients.


----------



## sags

There seems to be big differences between what the hospitals are saying and what the governments are saying.

Just covered by the media, Ontario government is having a late night meeting to decide if they will open schools tomorrow.

They are saying there aren't enough teachers and staff to open. Make a timely decision for once Doug !


----------



## HappilyRetired

zinfit said:


> The media could do a better job of directing their attention to this data including the vaccination status of such patients.


The media used to hold the government accountable to a certain extent. Now they have the same agenda as the government and actively cover for them.


----------



## londoncalling

Ukrainiandude said:


> What is your point?
> The number of people in hospital rose by 19 on Saturday to 150, although the number of ICU patients with COVID-19 remains at 11.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19: Saskatchewan reports 1,427 new cases Sunday
> 
> 
> COVID-19 hospitalizations rose by 19 on Saturday to 150 people, although ICU patients with COVID-19 remain at 11.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> leaderpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this
> 
> The remaining *11 people are in intensive care, six of whom are there for COVID-19 related illness*.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/covid-sask-jan-15-1.6316605


My point is that if one only reads the headline things are the best or worst they've ever been from one article to the next. The numbers are easily skewed if looked at daily Saskatchewan likely lags coastal areas in omicron arrival if we compare it to the previous waves. A low hospitalization rate is a good thing especially based on the high number of cases and may mean that the pandemic is subsiding and we can try to return to the previous way of living. The number of positive case counts is probably lower than real caseload based on those that have a positive rapid test result not being reported. Many are not reporting if one has minimal symptoms and would only put additional strain on the system anyways. My point is that if Omicron is endemic this could be the last major wave we experience and the current strain on our frontline workers will not be futile. There are a lot of healthcare workers currently off work because they have Covid themselves. If it gets to be too many who will look after those that are going to be hospitalized if things get worse. Each province has taken a different approach with varying levels of restrictions and lock downs. Nobody, knows the correct way to navigate an everchanging situation. My main point is that the Saskatchewan government is taking a different and perhaps riskier approach than other provinces. As someone who lives here I hope it pays off.


----------



## Eder

Covid information is being treated same as global warning....lots of BS.
Heres a big part how India managed a death rate 1/3 of Canada...no they didn't tell them to stay home till they were unable to breath











Queing for the dismay & disparage lol.


----------



## zinfit

Eder said:


> Covid information is being treated same as global warning....lots of BS.
> Heres a big part how India managed a death rate 1/3 of Canada...no they didn't tell them to stay home till they were unable to breath
> 
> View attachment 22678
> 
> 
> 
> Queing for the dismay & disparage lol.


Its a very poor and large third world country in which most people will never have access to a hospital. I reject anything coming from this country. Tens of thousands die every day and for most no one knows what the cause was.


----------



## Eder

Of course you reject it...its not fitting in with your predisposed opinion. Thats why I posted it.


----------



## s1231

Ukrainiandude said:


> What is your point?
> The number of people in hospital rose by 19 on Saturday to 150, although the number of ICU patients with COVID-19 remains at 11.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19: Saskatchewan reports 1,427 new cases Sunday
> 
> 
> COVID-19 hospitalizations rose by 19 on Saturday to 150 people, although ICU patients with COVID-19 remain at 11.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> leaderpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this
> 
> The remaining *11 people are in intensive care, six of whom are there for COVID-19 related illness*.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/covid-sask-jan-15-1.6316605



It will be useful to see those data ( full & unvaccined - hospitalizations) on each province.






Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca





Data from: Ontario Ministry of Health

Last updated: January 16, 2022 at 8:35 a.m. (EST)










https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-19-alberta-statistics.htm#vaccine-outcomes


----------



## james4beach

s1231 said:


> It will be useful to see those data ( full & unvaccined - hospitalizations) on each province.


Those numbers have to be population-adjusted before they can be interpreted.


----------



## zinfit

Eder said:


> Of course you reject it...its not fitting in with your predisposed opinion. Thats why I posted it.


Yes your posted picture is a comprehensive and conclusive statement on the situation in India and has nothing to do with any predisposed position.


----------



## sags

There seems to be a disconnect between what the doctors and hospitals are saying about ICU patients and the government statistics.

Maybe it is just in our area of Ontario, but I doubt it.

_The Chatham hospital had a record *34 COVID-19 patients, including 25 who were unvaccinated*. *Fourteen of the 15 patients occupying critical-care beds were also unvaccinated,* hospital group chief of staff Dr. Pervez Faruqi said._

They have 15 patients in ICU and 14 of them are unvaccinated. They have 34 covid patients in hospital and 25 are unvaccinated.

The "official" government numbers don't make any sense.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> There seems to be big differences between what the hospitals are saying and what the governments are saying.
> 
> Just covered by the media, Ontario government is having a late night meeting to decide if they will open schools tomorrow.
> 
> They are saying there aren't enough teachers and staff to open. Make a timely decision for once Doug !


 ... the "decision" to open the school BEFORE the staff shortage was depended on whether the school buses were running or not due to "inclement weather". 

Well, they (Lecce and his bunch) got their wish/prediction right this time around (at least today if not this week of January 17, 2022) ... lol.


----------



## sags




----------



## james4beach

A preliminary study from Israel shows that a fourth vaccination only offers limited protection against omicron.

Keep in mind this isn't just 3 shots, as many Canadians now have, but with an additional (4th) shot. The people receiving the 4th shot did have higher antibody levels, but it still probably is not enough to stop omicron.

*4 shots did not prevent the spread of omicron*. We have to start rethinking the value of vaccinations in this war. I'm not sure there's much value beyond the primary vaccination series. And society has been giving people the wrong message, that they can get vaccinated and then keep partying and pretending the pandemic doesn't exist.

This also isn't the only study that showed limited benefit of vaccines against omicron. A recent Ontario study showed something similar and significant % of triple vaccinated people catching omicron.

Myself, I am holding off on getting my 3rd shot as it's of questionable value at my age. I'll get another shot some time this year but I'm in no hurry.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> And society has been giving people the wrong message, that they can get vaccinated and then keep partying and pretending the pandemic doesn't exist.


I've been saying this for almost a year now.



> Myself, I am holding off on getting my 3rd shot as it's of questionable value at my age. I'll get another shot some time this year but I'm in no hurry.


It still reduces your chances of hospitalization or serious illness.
I'd get it if I can (I did).


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> It still reduces your chances of hospitalization or serious illness.
> I'd get it if I can (I did).


True, it does reduce probability of a bad case of covid. But I also expect more boosters will be required this year and I want to space these out.

I had quite severe side effects from the last shots and the last thing I want is another shot a few months from now. Because there are very harsh on the body, I need to space them out. My guess is that we're all looking at getting another vaccination in the Oct/Nov time frame.


----------



## Synergy

james4beach said:


> True, it does reduce probability of a bad case of covid. But I also expect more boosters will be required this year and I want to space these out.
> 
> I had quite severe side effects from the last shots and the last thing I want is another shot a few months from now. Because there are very harsh on the body, I need to space them out. My guess is that we're all looking at getting another vaccination in the Oct/Nov time frame.


If you are young, healthy, etc. I wouldn't be in any rush. Your chances of a severe outcome with 2 doses is minimal, especially with Omicron. Likely close to the risk of a piano falling out of the sky and landing on you! The boosters should be reserved for those that really need them - elderly, immune compromised, other countries with low vaccination rates, etc.

Pfizer is already talking about yearly boosters, etc. Time will tell whether or not this is even necessary. What they need is a better treatment options. Chasing COVID with a yearly vaccine is futile. We all know how accurate they are with influenza. And we all know how few people actually get the yearly jab.


----------



## james4beach

Synergy said:


> If you are young, healthy, etc. I wouldn't be in any rush. Your chances of a severe outcome with 2 doses is minimal, especially with Omicron. Likely close to the risk of a piano falling out of the sky and landing on you! The boosters should be reserved for those that really need them - elderly, immune compromised, other countries with low vaccination rates, etc.


I should add that I am in my 30s, don't have children, and work from home. So I really am not at high risk here. I do think it's smart to preserve the boosters for people who really need them. All the seniors in my family have gotten the boosters and I'm glad they did, but it's a whole different situation for a 75 or 80 year old, versus me.



Synergy said:


> Pfizer is already talking about yearly boosters, etc. Time will tell whether or not this is even necessary . . . Chasing COVID with a yearly vaccine is futile.


Yeah I'm concerned about that. Already I think the boosters chasing the variants has been futile. Notice how we barely boosted people in time for delta, and just about *as soon as we rolled out the boosters*, omicron appeared and changed the whole game.

Remember: it was discovered that 2 shots had limited effect with delta, and that's why we started boosters. The booster campaign was to bring the population back up to full immunity with delta. That pretty much illustrates how futile "keeping up" with boosters is.

Basically, by the time we started boosting in time for delta, we had already progressed from delta to omicron, which it turns out does not respond to the vaccines. In desperation, Israel gave 4 shots of the same original vaccine to people, but still can't stop omicron with it.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> In desperation, Israel gave 4 shots of the same original vaccine to people, but still can't stop omicron with it.


It was never really expected that a vaccine would stop the pandemic. It was shocking that they got an effective vaccine at all.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> True, it does reduce probability of a bad case of covid. But I also expect more boosters will be required this year and I want to space these out.
> 
> I had quite severe side effects from the last shots and the last thing I want is another shot a few months from now. Because there are very harsh on the body, I need to space them out. My guess is that we're all looking at getting another vaccination in the Oct/Nov time frame.


I had no reaction to the 3rd shot after 2 moderate reactions to 1 and 2. (fever, chills).
the new omicron variant vaccines are likely available in a few months (I’d guess late summer/fall for mass distribution).


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> View attachment 22683


 Quebecers are a different lot. Quebec has experienced the worst outcomes for Covid and imposed some the most intrusive restrictions. 1 +1 doesn't always make 2.


----------



## sags

Another observation could be the Premiers who did the least to protect their citizens from covid are at the bottom of the polls.

Clinging to political ideology over science has not worked out well for them.


----------



## sags

What in the world is Erin O'Toole thinking, with all his statements defending the un-vaccinated ?

Does he not understand that 90% of Canadians are vaccinated and have no sympathy for people who don't care they may expose others ?


----------



## Spudd

Interesting article I saw today. 









Coronavirus: Game Over


It's time to start living again




unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> What in the world is Erin O'Toole thinking, with all his statements defending the un-vaccinated ?
> 
> Does he not understand that 90% of Canadians are vaccinated and have no sympathy for people who don't care they may expose others ?


 ... only thing going for him atm to make himself "stand out".


----------



## Beaver101

Spudd said:


> Interesting article I saw today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus: Game Over
> 
> 
> It's time to start living again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com


 ... first half of the article looks like it was written by our medical genius on the forum and then the second part starting with

*



Who Can’t Relax Yet

Click to expand...

*


> _Healthcare workers, emerging economies, immunocompromised people, and kids. ... _


 ... stopped me from reading his blog narrative.


----------



## Plugging Along

Plugging Along said:


> As a follow up to post #385 My Covid Experience so far
> 
> Spouse is feeling a lot better, day 3&4 were really rough, day 5 he sounded awful but said he felt not bad. Today is day 6. He is officially out of isolation, but sticking around home. He still has a lingering cough and feels run down.
> Oldest - rapid tested today (day 5) and NEGATIVE. She was feeling the worse out of everyone. Yesterday and the day before (day 3, 4), she had a fever. chills, sore throat, cough and was out. No appetite. I was quite concerned for her. Yet, she had tested negative again. I called the doctor for an online consult, she says it could be viral but we will monitor for strep.
> Youngest - we tested Sunday & Tuesday (day 1) and she was negative. She had a little sore throat when she came home on Tuesday day. Wednesday (day 2) She felt horrible, fever, sore throat, tired, similar to the oldest, but not as bad. Tested again today (day 3) and she showed up positive.
> Myself - Slight tickle in throat Sunday, tested negative, assumed I had sympathy covid. Monday (day 1) - felt really run down and really sore throat, did a full PCR test Negative. Wednesday (day 3) - felt awful, stayed in bed all day with cough, sore throat, and sweats. Thursday (day 4) today - rapid test negative. Called the docter, she wants me to give it until the weekend see if it breaks. She thinks that I may have a small viral load for covid that isn't picking up, but the booster is doing it's job.
> 
> So what do infer from my families experience
> 
> Seems that subtle symptoms show up about 3 days after exposure.
> Worst days are 3-4 after symptoms start
> Rapid testing shouldn't be done too soon after exposure. Wait at least day 2 or 3, but isolate in the meantime.
> Booster shots work
> 
> Honestly, the hardest part now is keeping everyone still isolated. Once I knew my spouse was okay to take care of the kids, I should have just ripped off the masks and let nature take its course. However, because my oldest and I have something different, the doctor doesn't think it's a great idea for our bodies to fight two things at the same time. If my oldest and I were well, I think I would have just stopped isolating all of us when I knew spouse was going to be okay (need one adult to take care of things) Now, my youngest and spouse get to binge netflix and video games together, while the oldest and I are lonely. Thanks for reading.


Another update Covid experience update and my reflection (will have my learnings but will be long)

Spouse (out of isolation since last Thursday) had lingering cough, but managed to get out and exercise, it was hard at first, but then it seemed to clear out his lungs and he feels almost a 100%, other than the cough.
Youngest - We rapid tested her again on Sat (day 5) because she wanted to go to her practice (first major comp this weekend) and she was still negative. Tested again for school yesterday, still negative, so kept her home. She had not had any symptoms since the day before she tested positive. She is also officially out of isolation since Sunday, and is just bouncing around.
Oldest - She was feeling better by Saturday, still had a little sore throat and was fatigued. I had her come with me for a PCR test as I am eligible and there is an option to add other family members on. So she had a PCR on Saturday, and was POSITIVE.
Myself - I was still off on Saturday, and decided to get the PCR due to my eligibility. Showed up POSITIVE. When my results on my PCR came back I received information for that early treatment and was trying to figure out if I was eligible. You have to take it within the first 5 days of symptoms. Since I had a negative PCR even though I had symptoms, we could tell when I actually had COVID symptoms. Only sometime after that. The healthlink calculated it was mostly like when I had the really bad two days, which now would be over 5 days. It also means that my isolation is officially over. I still have symptoms, but they have gotten better. It's pretty normal for me to have very long colds during times, I don't sleep very much.

I am actually relieved that we had Covid now and seemed to have gotten through the worst of it. The symptoms for us sucked but were manageable. The worst parts that people don't talk about was:

Not knowing who had what. It was really tough having negative and positive tests. Due to this, isolating from each family member was the worst. It might have been better once one got sick, just to isolate as an unit. That only works one doesn't have to worry about having one person well enough to help the kids if they need it. Isolating together would have been so much easier mentally and physically. The positive is seeing that our teenagers really close to us and missed us. Nice to know that our family is tight.
Notifying our close contacts. We fortunately didn't have very many because we had decided to reduce socializing over a week before school started, but I don't love notifying the kids' school, close friends from school (school no longer tells anyone), and sports team.
Trying to figure out the isolation rules for everyone because it was all different days. It took me forever to figure this out, and I needed health link to help me.

Other learnings:

Once you have covid, rapid and PCR tests are useless for up to 180 days (90 is more normal). I was testing before my kid goes back to school, but I would have been testing for ages. It's important to know and follow the health rules. This means know when things start.
Monitoring symptoms is one of the most important things one can do even its mild. The symptoms should supersede a negative rapid test. This means stay at home if you have any symptoms, even if you test negative. Health orders ask you to test again if it's negative, before going out. We did it 3 times and still had it.
If you plan to travel outside of Canada in 6 months of getting sick, and rapid test at home, then you should go and get a PCR test to make it official. Otherwise you may have to isolate again before coming home if you still have the antigens. If I would have know, I would have brought my spouse and youngest one with me when I was eligible for testing so we had official records. This will be very interesting for future travellers.
I had my booster about a week before exposure. I am not sure if I had it earlier if it would have prevented it. However, I still am glad I had the booster because my sickness wasn't awful. My spouse didn't have his, so he may wait a few months and see what is going on in the Covid world. I don't think he has to worry for a few months at least.

Preparation - My house was really well prepared, I would recommend that people have some of the following supplies and things in place:

Enough food for 2 weeks, really easy to prepare meals. Ideally things that could be portioned off, reheated and consumed at different times (we didn't eat together). Tea and honey was the most consumed item the last two weeks.
Vitamins C, D, and Zinc - not sure how much that helped, but it could hurt. The Zinc throat longazes really did help though, and I was running low though.
Some say tylonel/advil but we didn't use it
Have someone that can check in a drop of supplies.
A bin system for people to drop stuff off contactless
Thermometer
Nasal flusher
Rapid tests - we used more than we thought because of all of the negatives. 

If you have others at home that you have to care for or isolate from:

N95 masks,
disposable gloves,
Hand sanitizers for each person
Lysol wipes and spray for each person (so they can disinfect when they leave a room)
Hepa air filters
Clear plastic shower curtain liners or table protectors - I used as a barrier barrier for the front and back seat. If I had more, I could have put up the curtain at each door way so we could all see each other, but still have a barrier. 

I will update this if I think of anything else. This has been helpful for me to help others and also I had to pull this thread out to give the healthlink dates.


----------



## sags

We stocked up on instant dried soups and instant ramen noodles (chicken and spicy mostly), low sodium V8 juice, and extra spicy Clamato juice.

We figure that will get us through a few days where we don't have the energy to cook and need fluids and vitamins.

I like the spicy stuff because it warms me up and clears out the nose and sinuses.

As an aside, we had a hot tub in the recreation room in one home we owned, and in 10 years whenever I felt a cold coming on I would turn up the heat and soak for awhile.

Never had a full cold all the time we lived there. I don't know the science involved, but it worked for me.

Maybe a hot tub bath or shower would be helpful with covid symptoms ?

Of course.........not if you already have a fever. Cool showers would be better to get the temperature down in that case.


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> We stocked up on instant dried soups and instant ramen noodles (chicken and spicy mostly), low sodium V8 juice, and extra spicy Clamato juice.
> 
> We figure that will get us through a few days where we don't have the energy to cook and need fluids and vitamins.
> 
> I like the spicy stuff because it warms me up and clears out the nose and sinuses.
> 
> As an aside, we had a hot tub in the recreation room in one home we owned, and in 10 years whenever I felt a cold coming on I would turn up the heat and soak for awhile.
> 
> Never had a full cold all the time we lived there. I don't know the science involved, but it worked for me.
> 
> Maybe a hot tub bath or shower would be helpful with covid symptoms ?
> 
> Of course.........not if you already have a fever. Cool showers would be better to get the temperature down in that case.


No could eat anything spicy (though they normally do) because everyone had a really sore throat and the spicy really hurt it. For the sinuses it wasn't too bad for covid at all. We did regular nasal irrigation (I added it to my list above), and it really helped. It also helped the throat. Soup was something we ate alot of too. We keep a lot of bone broth in the house and just add in veggies and some noodles. 

I tend to take a lot of baths. It is known that baths help relieve symptoms, they won't stop a cold, but it did help with the aches and general well being. My spouse took alot of hot showers because he had the chills for the first two days. You do have to be careful of the temperatures, I was getting a little light headed when it was hot water, but I prefer hot baths normally.


----------



## sags

What do you think of the V8 juice.......useful or just feel good stuff ?

A sore throat isn't something we thought about. Maybe some popsicles ?


----------



## OptsyEagle

Plugging Along said:


> Preparation - My house was really well prepared, I would recommend that people have some of the following supplies and things in place:
> 
> Enough food for 2 weeks, really easy to prepare meals. Ideally things that could be portioned off, reheated and consumed at different times (we didn't eat together). Tea and honey was the most consumed item the last two weeks.
> Vitamins C, D, and Zinc - not sure how much that helped, but it could hurt. The Zinc throat longazes really did help though, and I was running low though.
> Some say tylonel/advil but we didn't use it
> Have someone that can check in a drop of supplies.
> A bin system for people to drop stuff off contactless
> Thermometer
> *Nasal flusher*


I was thinking a regular nasal flush would probably exit a lot of dangerous virus from your sinuses, that is about to infect more cells, but of course I also wondered if all it would do was spread the virus around the sinuses more. So I was uncertain.

Did you use the nasal flusher? Did you use Neilmed and/or Hydrasense with it?


----------



## londoncalling

Spudd said:


> Interesting article I saw today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus: Game Over
> 
> 
> It's time to start living again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com


The virus seems to be more elusive and smarter than us humans. If people how had previous variants can get omicron and people who have been vaccinated can get omicron why do we draw the conclusion that this will be endemic. Not being a scientist I am only throwing out possibilities that may be incorrect for a number of reasons. But is it not possible or even likely that with more spread there will be more opportunities for mutations. These mutations will be different. Some stronger, some weaker, some more transmittable, some less transmittable. How long will we be dealing with covid variants. The Spanish flu had a timeline where it eventually went away but that was in a world with much less global integration and a much lower population. I am hopeful that Omni is the last variant and that it is not severely harmful to those who contract it (which looks like almost all of us). However, I would not rule out the possibility of more to come.


----------



## sags

That is the doomsday scenario that few want to think about, so we conclude it likely won't happen......which may be right or wrong.

Unfortunately, other variants are already popping up all over the world.

The Deltacron variant discovered in several countries appeared to be a mutation of the two, but appears to have fizzled out.

The Delta and Omicron first appeared as a small news item somewhere in the world. A lot of people shrugged......but here we are.

The world really needs a break from all this, but on the other hand....necessity is the mother of invention so it might propel science funding to find a cure.


----------



## OptsyEagle

londoncalling said:


> The virus seems to be more elusive and smarter than us humans. If people how had previous variants can get omicron and people who have been vaccinated can get omicron why do we draw the conclusion that this will be endemic.


I assume your use of the term endemic is to mean "easily able to live with it". The answer to that is, we don't know. There is a limited number of mutations that can happen and Omicron has so many that the hope is that exposure to it will protect us from all the previous ones and most of any that come in the future. Unfortuneately, the exact nature of what the future brings is always difficult to be certain about.

We do know that we cannot keep living the way we are so either we hand over this planet to the Corona virus or we take it back. I am for taking it back. We can deal with the future when it is upon us, since we have enough in the present to occupy us.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Plugging Along said:


> Other learnings:
> 
> Once you have covid, rapid and PCR tests are useless for up to 180 (90 is more normal).


Sorry to keep hitting you with questions but what do you mean by the above statement?


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> Another update Covid experience update and my reflection (will have my learnings but will be long)
> ...
> 
> I will update this if I think of anything else. This has been helpful for me to help others and also I had to pull this thread out to give the healthlink dates.


 ... thanks for the update and sharing. That must take alot of energy (brain & body-wise).

The only things that help for me getting through the true "flu" are 1.super-duper cough meds with decongestants and everything else thrown in, 2. honey which I drink by the table-spoonfuls, and 3. rest/sleep (aka avoiding everybody else). Of course, this doesn't include long haul meds needed from acquiring a real bad flu.


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> What do you think of the V8 juice.......useful or just feel good stuff ?
> 
> A sore throat isn't something we thought about. Maybe some popsicles ?


I don't like V8 much to begin with. If its not too spicy and not too 'thick', then getting some extra nutrients would not hurt. We all found the sore throat and swallowing was awful. Driinking lots of water and tea really helped. My kids hate water, so I made them honey tea. Popsicles would be helpful too. Sadly, ice cream and diary was not very helpful, it made all of us so much more flemmy. Just like when you are normally sick.


----------



## Plugging Along

OptsyEagle said:


> I was thinking a regular nasal flush would probably exit a lot of dangerous virus from your sinuses, that is about to infect more cells, but of course I also wondered if all it would do was spread the virus around the sinuses more. So I was uncertain.
> 
> Did you use the nasal flusher? Did you use Neilmed and/or Hydrasense with it?


I use a nasal flusher often because of my allergies. I have the Neilmed Sinugator which is electric and so much better than the squeeze bottle. I think they have replaced this one with the Hydropulse (from Neilmed also). Side note: both the Hydropulse and Hydrasense were on sale at London drugs I couple weeks ago. I would get either. The electric ones have a much better stream. I did flush every couple of nights. I used the same principle as our allergist told us, there are allergens/germs just sitting in the nasal cavity, flushing them out is better than inhaling them in the body. I think if it's already in there, flushing them out is the best thing to do. We also found that it helped our sore throats and post nasal drip too, which is a big plus.

Kids and spouse used the regular squeeze when congested, all Neilmed because that what I had from Costco years back.



OptsyEagle said:


> Sorry to keep hitting you with questions but what do you mean by the above statement?



Once you have covid, rapid and PCR tests are useless for up to 180 (90 is more normal).
So sorry. I am not the best at my editing when I am well. I forgot the word days and have edited my above posts. I learned from healthlink that once you have covid and test positive, the virus may stay in your system for up to 180 days but 90 days is more of the normal. You are no longer contagious after the first 5 days or so, but you may continue to test positive because the dead virus could be dead in your body. This will produce false positives in the future. I thought rapid tests tested to see if you had enough viral load in your body that was active, it still can test dead virus. No idea what we will do if we have to travel in the next 6 months.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Thanks for that.

Great stuff. You did so well with your preparation and how you addressed the challenges. Your family is lucky to have you.

My thoughts on dealing with the initial days of infection were pretty much on the same page. Like you said with allergens, I figure viruses are the same. If you are infected, they are in your cells. They enter your cells and then replicate a new virus and pop that new virus out. That virus has two way it is going to go. You either get rid of it OR it will find a new cell in your body and keep this replicating going on. It is that viral replication, if allowed to go too far, makes a person really really sick and in some cases, kills them.

So I figure if the virus is first found in our sinuses and throat, we should do the following once we feel the symptoms:

1) Drink plenty of warm liquids (like your tea and honey) continuously. Any virus that pops out of a cell in your throat, you want to wash it right down into the acid within your stomach and kill that sucker, and put a stop to that viruses replicating life once and for all.
2) Rinse out the sinuses regularly using those nasal flushing methods available. Any virus in there that pops out you want to rinse right out of your body. Get rid of as much as you can as often as you can. I have used the bottle flushers and they work just fine for me.
3) Replace the air in your room/house regularly or at least filter it. So any virus that you breathe out we know is infectious to others but what most don't talk about is it is also infectious to you.  You just got rid of it, so for the love of god, don't breathe it back in, and try not to let anyone in your household breathe it either. Either filter it like Plug did or put on a coat, turn on a furnace and open a few windows. Every few hours at the most. It will get cold, but shut the windows after 10 to 15 minutes and it will warm back up... but replace that virus containing air with clean air, regularly.

That was kind of my plan and the logic that went with it.


----------



## Plugging Along

OptsyEagle said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> Great stuff. You did so well with your preparation and how you addressed the challenges. Your family is lucky to have you.
> 
> My thoughts on dealing with the initial days of infection were pretty much on the same page. Like you said with allergens, I figure viruses are the same. If you are infected, they are in your cells. They enter your cells and then replicate a new virus and pop that new virus out. That virus has two way it is going to go. You either get rid of it OR it will find a new cell in your body and keep this replicating going on. It is that viral replication, if allowed to go too far, makes a person really really sick and in some cases, kills them.
> 
> So I figure if the virus is first found in our sinuses and throat, we should do the following once we feel the symptoms:
> 
> 1) Drink plenty of warm liquids (like your tea and honey) continuously. Any virus that pops out of a cell in your throat, you want to wash it right down into the acid within your stomach and kill that sucker, and put a stop to that viruses replicating life once and for all.
> 2) Rinse out the sinuses regularly using those nasal flushing methods available. Any virus in there that pops out you want to rinse right out of your body. Get rid of as much as you can as often as you can. I have used the bottle flushers and they work just fine for me.
> 3) Replace the air in your room/house regularly or at least filter it. So any virus that you breathe out we know is infectious to others but what most don't talk about is it is also infectious to you.  You just got rid of it, so for the love of god, don't breathe it back in, and try not to let anyone in your household breathe it either. Either filter it like Plug did or put on a coat, turn on a furnace and open a few windows. Every few hours at the most. It will get cold, but shut the windows after 10 to 15 minutes and it will warm back up... but replace that virus containing air with clean air, regularly.
> 
> That was kind of my plan and the logic that went with it.


I think your logic is bang on. One caution with nasal flushing that my dr told me before, is there is something as too much. You don't want to strip out the mucus totally and want your body to still produce the fluids that it needs. She told me while sick, try not to do it more than twice a day, unless I really needed it. I usually did it at night before I went to sleep to get rid of as many germs before I went to bed. I also forgot to mention that I used a stronger medicated mouthwash during covid, only because I had it from my dental surgery last year. Make sure that you keep your mouth open while nasel flushing because you don't want the pressure to push the germs back in.

I also didn't mention, I did try to keep windows opened a little. It's actually a recommendation for isolation. On one night I was feeling more tired and off, and it wasn't totally freezing, I sleep with the window open and I felt so much better. I did have to put my ski base layer on and my head scarf, it was kinda of like camping, but I am glad I did that. They recommend if one opens some windows for 15 minute intervals every hour or two, it makes a big difference in air quality. We have done this on the few times we have had people over during COVID. 

One last thing, I will add back into my top post, is get a couple of those clear shower curtains or table cloth protectors for isolation. When we hadn't tested positive and didn't all have symptoms but were isolating, I had to drive my kid somewhere. I put the clear plastic cover between the front and back seat like a taxi barrier. I just used the back door to secure it and some duct tape on the top. If I had more I would have done that for our bedrooms so we could have conversed from our doors safely (we were lonely). That's how handed out candy safely for Halloween. Highly recommend having that incase one has to drive their loved one to the hospital or something and they are still isolated.


----------



## MrMatt

londoncalling said:


> If people how had previous variants can get omicron and people who have been vaccinated can get omicron why do we draw the conclusion that this will be endemic.


Because that's literally the definition of endemic.
"(of a disease or condition) regularly found among particular people or in a certain area."

In the context of COVID19 the "certain area" is "earth", but basically it means becoming a normal disease.


----------



## sags

Life would be far from normal with the covid as a constant threat.

We would have a future of wearing space suits everywhere to protect us.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> It was never really expected that a vaccine would stop the pandemic. It was shocking that they got an effective vaccine at all.


I agree. These vaccines have been spectacular in the early phases of the pandemic. Considering what they were able to do, it's shocking that anyone would refuse to take them (back when beta and delta were circulating).

But I think the public's expectations and confidence were also boosted to unreasonable levels. I remember watching Stephen Colbert in November, when a pregnant woman came on the show and he not only shook her hand, but also kissed her on the cheek... this is the kind of overconfidence that has brought us trouble now.

If anything, now we're back to more like what I would expect during the pandemic, which is that we have a few very good tools to help reduce the risk. The vaccines work at reducing serious illness, and boosters are reformulations will help keep vaccine effectiveness high.

That's pretty good, all considering. The only part I worry about is how the public seems to flip flop between panic (like right now) and then back to overconfidence and pretending the virus doesn't exist... which is what will happen in ~ 4 months.


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> *Monitoring symptoms is one of the most important things one can do even its mild. The symptoms should supersede a negative rapid test. This means stay at home if you have any symptoms, even if you test negative. . . .*


Really great post here, thanks for sharing all this. I even printed (to PDF) a copy and saved to my covid treatment & articles folder.

Your points above are very interesting, thanks for mentioning these. You're right. We all have to read symptoms above all else. If we have cold and flu like symptoms, we have to assume it's COVID and stay away from other people to protect society.

There's an additional advantage of staying home if you don't feel great. Your body is weak (already fighting something) it's more susceptible to catching _even more of any virus_. Staying at home at the onset of a cold/flu can help reduce the severity.

The note about travel is fascinating. I never thought of this before and I'll have to read more about test results after catching covid.

I'll add an additional tip for everyone: buy a pulse oximeter. Everyone in my family has one. The oximeter shows you the % oxygen in the blood, and can be an early warning sign if you develop a serious infection in the lungs which reduces oxygen. I personally know one guy (around my age) who caught covid and did not realize is blood oxygen was getting so low. I think he down to near 90% oxygen by the time he called 911 with trouble breathing.

When the ambulance took him away and checked his oxygen, they remarked at how low his oxygen was. A pulse oximeter is a $40 tool that could easily diagnose this before it gets this severe. I'll point out again this was a healthy man in his 30s.

Everyone has different normal oxygen levels, so you have to measure yourself to learn your baseline. In some severe cases of covid, oxygen drops and can lead to symptoms like dizziness, confusion and light headedness. Other times people may not notice it because it can be a very "covert" condition that you don't realize until the oxygen gets dangerously low.

Here are a couple resources on using an oximeter to monitor covid. As a rough guideline, for most of us with normal breathing, regular oxygen would be around 98%. Consistent readings at 95% are a cause for concern and the situation is more like an emergency at 93%









Using a Pulse Oximeter







myhealth.alberta.ca







https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/pulseoximeter.html


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> I agree. These vaccines have been spectacular in the early phases of the pandemic. Considering what they were able to do, it's shocking that anyone would refuse to take them (back when beta and delta were circulating).
> 
> But I think the public's expectations and confidence were also boosted to unreasonable levels. I remember watching Stephen Colbert in November, when a pregnant woman came on the show and he not only shook her hand, but also kissed her on the cheek... this is the kind of overconfidence that has brought us trouble now.
> 
> If anything, now we're back to more like what I would expect during the pandemic, which is that we have a few very good tools to help reduce the risk. The vaccines work at reducing serious illness, and boosters are reformulations will help keep vaccine effectiveness high.
> 
> That's pretty good, all considering. The only part I worry about is how the public seems to flip flop between panic (like right now) and then back to overconfidence and pretending the virus doesn't exist... which is what will happen in ~ 4 months.


just checked the Alberta Health under vaccine outcomes. Over the past 120 days the unvaccinated account for 80% of the ICUs for people over 50 except for the over 80 group which is in the 70s. There are virtually zero such cases for children under 5 . The vaccines have done a good job of keeping people out of intensify ICUs.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> just checked the Alberta Health under vaccine outcomes. Over the past 120 days the unvaccinated account for 80% of the ICUs for people over 50 except for the over 80 group which is in the 70s. There are virtually zero such cases for children under 5 . The vaccines have done a good job of keeping people out of intensify ICUs.


Great news and IMO this is what we want from vaccines... preventing the worst cases. Not too concerned about getting the sniffles or out of commission for a week.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Not too concerned about getting the sniffles or out of commission for a week.


The systems really struggle when 30% of staff is out.


----------



## MK7GTI




----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Life would be far from normal with the covid as a constant threat.
> 
> We would have a future of wearing space suits everywhere to protect us.


 ... provided one survives first to be able to wear a space suit or even a gas mask.


----------



## Saintor

It is about time that those insane de-measures to be lifted as they should have never taken place. UK is just about to do that. PC of Quebec just recommended that as well. They were hysterical, abusive and unreasonable. They just made a very bad situation worse. The stupid masquerade needs to go now.


----------



## Money172375

Ontario plans to ease restrictions Jan 31. Hoping to remove them all by March (see crystal ball).


----------



## james4beach

I was reviewing a few different data sources tonight, regarding the effectiveness of 2 shots and 3 shots against omicron.

First comment is that there is very little reliable data on this, because the omicron surges are so new. There is some incomplete data, some biased data, but it's hard to get a good reading of this situation.

However I did encounter this nice piece from CBC which explains why we should be careful when we stumble upon new research posted online. Sometimes the research itself is flawed and gets revised (that's how science works). *One has to be careful to not read too much into any single study and this article explains why.*

From the studies I looked at, here's what I currently gather. Most studies are showing a vaccination benefit from either 2 or 3 shots, against severe disease and death. However the benefit against getting symptomatic illness (getting sick) is questionable and even when boosted with 3 shots, the current vaccines might not be helping much to prevent someone from getting sick.

In other words, with 2 or 3 shots, you are still vulnerable to getting sick, but you're less likely to end up extremely sick or dead.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-19-vaccine-study-omicron-anti-vaxxers-1.6315890


----------



## Eder

I'll be getting my 4th shot as soon as I get back into the USA...about 6 weeks. In the mean time I'm able to easily buy Invermectine down here along with Zinc supplements. It works for Indians ... should be fine for me & the wife should we get Omicron.

Now back to the Margaritas!


----------



## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> I'll be getting my 4th shot as soon as I get back into the USA...about 6 weeks. In the mean time I'm able to easily buy Invermectine down here along with Zinc supplements. It works for Indians ... should be fine for me & the wife should we get Omicron.
> 
> Now back to the Margaritas!


Ivermectin doesn't work for India, they've dropped it from covid treatment protocols. Why HCQ and Ivermectin were removed from India’s Covid-19 treatment protocol

As for scientific papers on Ivermectin, it turns out about a third had flaws or likely made up with fake data. The remainder showed that Ivermectin had no evidence of effectiveness. 








Ivermectin: How false science created a Covid 'miracle' drug


Thousands worldwide have taken ivermectin to fight Covid. But what's the evidence?



www.bbc.com




_The largest and highest quality ivermectin study published so far is the Together trial at the McMaster University in Canada. It found no benefit for the drug when it comes to Covid._

But hey, I'm sure I could find some magic beans for you that work just as well.


----------



## diharv

At the very least he'll have protection from tropical parasites and worms.


----------



## Beaver101

^^ Actually bleach is alot cheaper and easier to access though not as tasty and provided the fumes doesn't kill first.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I was reviewing a few different data sources tonight, regarding the effectiveness of 2 shots and 3 shots against omicron.
> 
> First comment is that there is very little reliable data on this, because the omicron surges are so new. There is some incomplete data, some biased data, but it's hard to get a good reading of this situation.
> 
> However I did encounter this nice piece from CBC which explains why we should be careful when we stumble upon new research posted online. Sometimes the research itself is flawed and gets revised (that's how science works). *One has to be careful to not read too much into any single study and this article explains why.*
> 
> From the studies I looked at, here's what I currently gather. Most studies are showing a vaccination benefit from either 2 or 3 shots, against severe disease and death. However the benefit against getting symptomatic illness (getting sick) is questionable and even when boosted with 3 shots, the current vaccines might not be helping much to prevent someone from getting sick.
> 
> In other words, with 2 or 3 shots, you are still vulnerable to getting sick, but you're less likely to end up extremely sick or dead.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-19-vaccine-study-omicron-anti-vaxxers-1.6315890


 ... haven't read the article yet. If I recall correctly, the vaccine wanes over a period of time which includes the 2nd shot. Thus, the need for the 3rd shot. Think of it as the annual flu-shot - one can still get the flu even with the shot (which is dependent on your exposure - another story) but the "severity" (aka symptoms) of the flu is tamed since you got protection via the shot as your body builds up anti-bodies.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... haven't read the article yet. If I recall correctly, the vaccine wanes over a period of time which includes the 2nd shot. Thus, the need for the 3rd shot. Think of it as the annual flu-shot - one can still get the flu even with the shot (which is dependent on your exposure - another story) but the "severity" (aka symptoms) of the flu is tamed since you got protection via the shot as your body builds up anti-bodies.


Yes it sounds like it wanes, and the booster does make up for that. But then the question is, how long does it last going forward?

Lots of unanswered questions and the mutations keep throwing this off as well. Delta responded very well to the vaccine but the sad reality is that omicron does not.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Yes it sounds like it wanes, and the booster does make up for that. But then the question is, how long does it last going forward?


 ... no idea but every way to temper the severity of the disease and keep one out of the hospital. 



> Lots of unanswered questions and the mutations keep throwing this off as well. Delta responded very well to the vaccine but the sad reality is that omicron does not.


 ... you could wait until the vaccine is adjusted to include Omicron which I believe is coming out in March from Pfizer. [In the meantime, you can use your other tools.] "Hopefully" Omicron is the last of a severe mutation in which case I can see the Covid shot being like the annual flu shot (perhaps merged together). But then no one knows for sure, including the experts. The virus wants to survive too by evolving.


----------



## Eder

Well it may be a bit tongue in cheek but it seems no more far fetched than having Covid patients stay home & suffer until they can no longer breath as an initial treatment.


----------



## Beaver101

Peel's top doctor asks employers who continue to demand negative tests to 'stop immediately'

Sounds like employers (at least in Toronto) don't want any ex-lepers amongst their midst ... lol.


----------



## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> Well it may be a bit tongue in cheek but it seems no more far fetched than having Covid patients stay home & suffer until they can no longer breath as an initial treatment.


You mean like India which was your example on the use of Ivermectin? Where they under counted their deaths because people die at home and aren't part of the official covid count.








Three New Estimates of India’s All-Cause Excess Mortality during the COVID-19 Pandemic


India lacks an authoritative estimate of the death toll from the COVID-19 pandemic. We report excess mortality estimates from three different data sources from the pandemic’s start through June 2021. Estimating COVID-deaths with statistical confidence may prove elusive. But all estimates suggest...




cgdev.org


----------



## Beaver101

Czech folk singer dies after intentionally catching COVID-19



> _Rek said Horka wanted to get sick so she would not be required to get vaccinated.
> 
> "My mom wanted to get sick so she gets the COVID pass," Rek said. "She said to me, and even publicly, she wants to get infected so she is done with COVID."
> 
> In the Czech Republic, proof of vaccination or a recent COVID-19 infection is required for travel, accessing cultural and sports facilities, and for visiting bars and restaurants.
> 
> *Rek said his mother was getting incorrect information about the virus "from her social circle," and was posting anti-vaccination sentiments online.*_
> ...


 ... I read in another article, her back had hurted and so she went to lie somewhere. And in the process, "she choked to death". Sounds alot like gasping for air ... poor woman .. now she can sing for the angels in heaven instead of posting anti-vax sentiments online.


----------



## diharv

"Rek said his mother was getting incorrect information about the virus "from her social circle," and was posting anti-vaccination sentiments online"
How many times have we read something like this from a relative of someone who refused the vaccine and died? There's unlimited information available but "Mabel down the street says...". It's callous to say but little sympathy and the incorrect information excuse is getting tiring.


----------



## HappilyRetired

diharv said:


> "Rek said his mother was getting incorrect information about the virus "from her social circle," and was posting anti-vaccination sentiments online"
> How many times have we read something like this from a relative of someone who refused the vaccine and died? There's unlimited information available but "Mabel down the street says...". It's callous to say but little sympathy and the incorrect information excuse is getting tiring.


Yes, the incorrect information is tiring. But the experts said that the vaccine prevented both catching and spreading Covid (among many other falsehoods) and that's far worse than what Mabel down the street says.


----------



## Beaver101

diharv said:


> "Rek said his mother was getting incorrect information about the virus "from her social circle," and was posting anti-vaccination sentiments online"
> How many times have we read something like this from a relative of someone who refused the vaccine and died? There's unlimited information available but "Mabel down the street says...". It's callous to say but little sympathy and the incorrect information excuse is getting tiring.


 ... that's what happens when a feeble-minded individual listens to spinisters like that from post #573. Apparently her son and husband weren't that stupid and got vaccinated, living to tell his mother's story.


----------



## james4beach

The omicron wave in Ontario may have peaked. Hard to know but I was looking at some charts tonight. Below are the Ontario hospitalizations, and cases.

Hospitalizations look like they might be levelling off.

The case numbers are dropping. These are flawed measurements (I think PCR tests are only being done on healthcare workers and people in hospital), and while it's not a representative sample of the broad population, it's still *a sample. *These are definitely falling... even if that just means that fewer healthcare workers have covid, that's still got to be a good sign.

The provinces really have to keep up restrictions though. Consider what happened in Denmark, where they lifted COVID restrictions in the middle of their wave. Their cases have been rising for 3 months now and have not peaked, they just keep going higher.


----------



## james4beach

If Ontario "opens up" as Ford is saying, I think we could go the way of Denmark. They've had 3 months of rising omicron cases, with no peak. Denmark only briefly closed, but then opened up everything.

Cases and hospitalizations continue to rise there. Denmark's hospitalizations have been consistently increasing for *3 months*.

That's what you get if you try to pretend covid doesn't exist. Canadian hospitalizations have only been rising for one month now. Open everything up and you'll get 2 more months of rising cases, plus forget about ever using the hospitals for anything else besides covid.

By the way, Denmark has just as much vaccination as Canada, and even more booster rollout. They are proof that the vaccines and boosters will not stop the omicron wave.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> The omicron wave in Ontario may have peaked. Hard to know but I was looking at some charts tonight. Below are the Ontario hospitalizations, and cases.
> 
> Hospitalizations look like they might be levelling off.


Hospitalizations might be leveling off, and ICU admissions are possibly slowing, taken together that suggests we're at a potential peak.

But schools have only been open a week, we're not sure what the impact there is.
In BC they've been open 2 weeks, but I don't know their hospitalization trend, but their deaths haven't flatlined, but those should lag a bit longer.

For Canada, our COVID in hospital rate is way higher than previous waves.


https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/current-covid-hospitalizations-per-million



I really don't know what is going to happen.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> But schools have only been open a week, we're not sure what the impact there is.
> In BC they've been open 2 weeks, but I don't know their hospitalization trend, but their deaths haven't flatlined, but those should lag a bit longer.


I'm sorry to sound pessimistic but I think we're going to prolong this wave, because I don't see any government commitment to preventing the spread.

We've opened schools, so we just kick-started a whole new transmission method. Now the kids will bring covid home. Ontario and BC are both taking steps to relax restrictions.

[ A whole bunch of people I know have caught covid in the last couple weeks, and about half of these anecdotes trace to children as vectors, including spreading it to their grandparents and relatives. ]

We could bring this wave down with aggressive measures but instead the governments are doing the reverse. They opened schools and are easing restrictions.

I have no idea why they would do this so prematurely, before we're even sure that cases are declining. There's such poor data monitoring right now that it's very premature to say the cases have peaked.

One could argue that schools are very important, so yes, prioritize them. But to balance that out, we have to close ALL restaurants, bars, gyms, sports, group activities. Firmly closed. Non essential workplaces should also be closed or have strict limits on capacity to keep most people away.

We also have full flights between, for example, Toronto and Vancouver. There is way too much leisure travel / tourism happening. One way to discourage this is close all the damned restaurants and bars across the country. People still have a false sense of security with the vaccine passports. Omicron spreads quite readily among vaccinated people, so those restaurants and bars are extremely dangerous.

They should all be closed, all across the country. Let's remember that about 95% of adults are vaccinated. The exponential spread is happening among vaccinated people.

By the way @MrMatt not only our the hospitalizations way past previous highs, but our national DEATHS are approaching previous all time highs. There is nothing remotely mild about this wave. *Our pattern looks nothing like South Africa, where deaths were low on this wave*. Instead our deaths could hit new all time highs... nothing at all like South Africa.


----------



## Money172375

There’s other testing going on showing infection rates are slowing.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/wastewater-monitoring-sewage-ontario-covid-19-1.6321796



My trip to Florida has me thinking we need to have less restrictions. after 2 years, people are tired with restrictions and not adhering to them anyway. Businesses are failing, people are losing their jobs. The closest Swiss Chalet in the city next to me is closed….no curb side, no delivery. How much more can these people take? 

I’m not saying to open up everything like Florida, but I think all businesses should open up with capacity restrictions in place. Keep vaccine mandates in place for non-essential services. You’re not going to stop the private gatherings at this point.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Money172375 said:


> There’s other testing going on showing infection rates are slowing.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/wastewater-monitoring-sewage-ontario-covid-19-1.6321796
> 
> 
> 
> My trip to Florida has me thinking we need to have less restrictions. after 2 years, people are tired with restrictions and not adhering to them anyway. Businesses are failing, people are losing their jobs. The closest Swiss Chalet in the city next to me is closed….no curb side, no delivery. How much more can these people take?
> 
> I’m not saying to open up everything like Florida, but I think all businesses should open up with capacity restrictions in place. Keep vaccine mandates in place for non-essential services. You’re not going to stop the private gatherings at this point.


It is a different political environment here in Canada. For some reason the only thing we will accept, and reluctantly at that, is lockdowns. There is no politician in Canada that will do anything different, that has not been proven to work by some other politician who took the risk to find out. No one wants to be Jason Kenney.

I am having a hard time seeing why Omicron is just going to go away once we open up. It went crazy at Christmas. We locked down but more importantly, we reduced socialization because Christmas was over and it became very very cold out, giving us more incentive to just stay home and infections receded. With that pent up demand, we are going to open everything up again in February (Ontario) and for some reason everything is going to be OK. No thought to trying anything different. If it gets better we reduce more restrictions, if it does not, we don't. Same old plan. Maybe the solution to a plan that does not work 4 times before, is to just do it again. I don't know, but I am not holding out any hopes here.

I have a few ideas that would work a lot better but politically they would be totally unacceptable and therefore undoable. At this stage of the pandemic, we are the only remaining problem...not the virus. The virus has already given us the rule book, we just cannot get everyone to read it.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> There’s other testing going on showing infection rates are slowing.
> 
> ...
> 
> My trip to Florida has me thinking we need to have less restrictions. after 2 years, people are tired with restrictions and not adhering to them anyway. Businesses are failing, people are losing their jobs. The closest Swiss Chalet in the city next to me is closed….no curb side, no delivery. How much more can these people take?


 ... guess you haven't been in Toronto lately to see the permanently closed-up shops ... with more NEWS to come.



> I’m not saying to open up everything like Florida, but I think all businesses should open up with capacity restrictions in place. Keep vaccine mandates in place for non-essential services. You’re not going to stop the private gatherings at this point.


 ... Ford (for Ontario) has made his announcements yesterday. Basically, non-essential businesses can open up with 50% capacity at end of this month. It has to be a gradual approach ... keeping in mind re posts #576 to 578, particularly the "school lag" effect(s).


----------



## sags

Interviewed In a Toronto hospital yesterday.........the ICU doctor said they had no fully vaccinated patients in the ICU......zero.

They had 25% of the patients were double vaccinated and 75% of the patients had no vaccinations.

Most of the patients were older adults. 

The trend seemed to be people get infected and feel okay for awhile...then boom, they can't breathe and need to go on ventilators.

We just don't have medications that work very well once a person is infected. It is basically a dice roll at that point.

We MUST have better medications to fight the virus once it lands. Pills, sprays, syrup, inhaler....something at least.

What little medications the hospitals do have inflammation meds mostly, they are running short of due to supply chain problems.

They now have to decide who gets the medications and who doesn't.


----------



## damian13ster




----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Interviewed In a Toronto hospital yesterday.........the ICU doctor said they had no fully vaccinated patients in the ICU......zero.
> 
> They had 25% of the patients were double vaccinated and 75% of the patients had no vaccinations.
> 
> Most of the patients were older adults.
> 
> The trend seemed to be people get infected and feel okay for awhile...then boom, they can't breathe and need to go on ventilators.
> 
> We just don't have medications that work very well once a person is infected. It is basically a dice roll at that point.


 ... as "evidenced" by CP24 daily deaths reporting: 

Ontario reports over 4,100 COVID-19 hospitalizations, 64 more deaths (for today January 21, 2022)

So what were the death numbers yesterday? 40 ... the day before 30? ... and the day before 25? 



> We MUST have better medications to fight the virus once it lands. Pills, sprays, syrup, inhaler....something at least.


 ... to fight the "flu" but Covid isn't the flu. Reality is there is nothing a doc can really do for a patient who gets intubated ... it's really rolling the dice then. 



> What little medications the hospitals do have inflammation meds mostly, they are running short of due to supply chain problems.
> 
> *They now have to decide who gets the medications and who doesn't.*


 ... this is forcing the doctors' hand to play God here and farcially enough these Covidiots have no issue with that.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> By the way @MrMatt not only our the hospitalizations way past previous highs, but our national DEATHS are approaching previous all time highs. There is nothing remotely mild about this wave. *Our pattern looks nothing like South Africa, where deaths were low on this wave*. Instead our deaths could hit new all time highs... nothing at all like South Africa.


I think part of that is because our previous highs were much lower than most comparable nations


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> View attachment 22704


Since they stopped testing as many people, and are getting increasingly restrictive with who and when they test, I think this data is meaningless.
Also many people are simply using rapidtests to confirm status. If you get a positive result, you might as well stay home and get better than go out to get a PCR.

I think at this point the "tested case count" is completely useless.
The reality in Ontario is that we're just adding people to hospitals and ICU's slower. those numbers aren't really declining yet.


----------



## zinfit

Omicron is like the flue but it is much more transmissible . A bad flu season can infect 20% of the population and can hospitalize a significant number of people. A lot of seniors have over the years died from the flu. Omicron will infect something like 60% or more of the population. From a hospital standpoint take the stats for a bad flu season and multiple it by 3 or 4 times.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> I think part of that is because our previous highs were much lower than most comparable nations


That's a good point.

But we still have the problem of load on the hospitals. I'm confused by how hospitalizations are being reported though. I'm not sure all provinces are reporting them the same way.

Nationally our hospitalization figure is now 2x the previous peak from a year ago. Is this a problem? I think if we can't get any other medical care, can't have any surgeries, we do have a problem.

I doubt it's possible to see any regular doctor/GP right now. AFAIK doctors are trying to avoid seeing patients except for the most serious issues.

These are big problems and we can't let that condition persist. There are other medical concerns besides COVID.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> That's a good point.
> 
> But we still have the problem of load on the hospitals. I'm confused by how hospitalizations are being reported though. I'm not sure all provinces are reporting them the same way.


Likely not, Ontario is reporting "people in hospital with COVID", and breaking out "due to COVID" and "due to other things". 



> Nationally our hospitalization figure is now 2x the previous peak from a year ago. Is this a problem? I think if we can't get any other medical care, can't have any surgeries, we do have a problem.


Yes it's a problem, and the fact that absenteeism is significantly higher than normal, is also an issue.



> I doubt it's possible to see any regular doctor/GP right now. AFAIK doctors are trying to avoid seeing patients except for the most serious issues.


My family doctor has been doing mostly telephone for a while, which is great.
Honestly for many issues physically meeting isn't required.



> These are big problems and we can't let that condition persist. There are other medical concerns besides COVID.


Peoples brains can only hold a single thought at a time.
Today the medical concern is COVID, and they're happy to focus only on that to the detriment of everything else health.
Just like they're completely happy to focus on "CO2 emissions" which they think is Climate change, to the the detriment of everything else environmental.

These are complex problems, and the 1 dimensional perspective most people consider things isn't helpful.
Hard problems are multidimensional, politics aren't the way to solve such problems.

I do think COVID19 has unfortunately evolved into a political issue, which is making dealing with it harder.


----------



## james4beach

Scott Gottlieb estimates that roughly 40% to 50% of Americans will catch COVID by the end of February.

He points out, this is unprecedented. There has never been a severe respiratory illness that infected such a huge % of the population. Influenza doesn't come anywhere close to this.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Scott Gottlieb estimates that roughly 40% to 50% of Americans will catch COVID by the end of February.
> 
> He points out, this is unprecedented. There has never been a severe respiratory illness that infected such a huge % of the population. Influenza doesn't come anywhere close to this.


I think across there are many groups that are past 40%. Think about it, if 30% of your staff called out for COVID like symptoms, you're more than halfway there.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> I think across there are many groups that are past 40%. Think about it, if 30% of your staff called out for COVID like symptoms, you're more than halfway there.


I'm absolutely blown away by how many people are catching COVID right now. Both US and Canada. Every couple days, I hear of another case within my circles.

They aren't all mild cases either. A friend in their mid 30s still has symptoms approaching 14 days. I strongly endorse wearing a 95 or 99 level mask and continuing to be careful. It's true that you might easily get over it in a couple days, but it could also turn into a multi-week sickness.

One should avoid going into an office or workplace if at all possible. If you have to, wear a 95 or 99 level mask.

Even if we've peaked, that still means ~ 4 weeks on the down slope. Community spread is extremely high right now, even if we're "past the peak". It's not a time to relax.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I'm absolutely blown away by how many people are catching COVID right now. Both US and Canada. Every couple days, I hear of another case within my circles.


I'm not surprised at all.
It spreads fast and people aren't scared anymore



> One should avoid going into an office or workplace if at all possible. If you have to, wear a 95 or 99 level mask.


That's been the official government line since Christmas.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> It spreads fast and people aren't scared anymore


Is this true? People aren't scared?

They aren't concerned that a severe acute covid infection may cause organ damage, lung damage, or incredible inflammation? How about an inflammatory shock to the body that could leave them more vulnerable to other infections going forward?

Call me crazy but I like my heart and lungs. They have proved to be useful so far and I'm hoping to use them for another 60 years.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Is this true? People aren't scared?
> 
> They aren't concerned that a severe acute covid infection may cause organ damage, lung damage, or incredible inflammation that could weaken them going forward?


Not from what I see.

Here in Ontario they're screaming to open up, most of my kids classmates are back in class. If they were concerned with COVID, they'd be holding their kids back.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Here in Ontario they're screaming to open up, most of my kids classmates are back in class. If they were concerned with COVID, they'd be holding their kids back.


I agree that it's a tough call with kids, since they appear to (generally) have very mild cases of COVID, and school really is important for socializing and normal development.

Staying away from people is easier for you and me, we're not in formative years. However I would still argue that if we want to prioritize schools, then we must balance out this risk by shutting everything else down *hard*. Really we must close nearly everything else, but allow schools to operate if that's what parents want.

I don't have kids but I'm OK with making those sacrifices (no restaurants, bars or gyms) to allow the children to attend school.

I walked by a local gym yesterday, nobody was wearing masks, everyone exercising together in a room. They are all going to catch omicron.


----------



## Eder

I think those that want to avoid all contact should stay home etc but things are opening up everywhere & it is a welcome relief for those with a different outlook.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> I think those that want to avoid all contact should stay home etc but things are opening up everywhere & it is a welcome relief for those with a different outlook.


It's a welcome relief to some people. It's the opposite of a welcome relief to the 10,000 people we have in Canadian hospitals. This is more than double the most we ever previously had in hospital during the pandemic.


----------



## Money172375

There’s no stopping covid. At best, we can slow it down…..a little. When I hear about outbreaks in hospitals or LTC after 2 years in, it’s clear that masking and other precautions that must exist at hospitals right now, simply are not enough.

honestly, at this point……has any country stopped omicron? Countries like Portugal and Australia that were heralded are now facing the same issues.

while people I know may be scared inside, they’ve overcome the fear and are almost back to normal. Maybe, not socializing with very large groups, but things open here in Ontario on Jan 31, and I’m already getting invited to indoor gyms for sports and after parties.(upwards of 20 people in a rural town)


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> It's a welcome relief to some people. It's the opposite of a welcome relief to the 10,000 people we have in Canadian hospitals. This is more than double the most we ever previously had in hospital during the pandemic.


I wonder if the media and the experts are overplaying the situation. . I checked Alberta stats for ICUs and note it is at 101. Back in September is was at the 250 level. I understand the levels are higher in Quebec and Ontario but are they really close to overwhelming the system. Ontario I think has 600 ICUs and would guess their covid ICU capacity is in the 800 range. I am in south Texas and my county is under 100 ICUs and during the peak summer surges they were over 300 ICUs. Just being the devil's advocate.


----------



## sags

Healthcare workers in Alberta are running on empty........same as other Provinces.



https://twitter.com/hashtag/RunningOnEmpty?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> View attachment 22703
> 
> 
> View attachment 22704


Source for this stuff?


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> Healthcare workers in Alberta are running on empty........same as other Provinces.
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/hashtag/RunningOnEmpty?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw


being a union guy you know that it can be helpful to negotiate in public. ICU staff is only a small % of healthcare workers and nurses.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> Source for this stuff?


Government of Ontario





Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> I wonder if the media and the experts are overplaying the situation. . I checked Alberta stats for ICUs and note it is at 101. Back in September is was at the 250 level. I understand the levels are higher in Quebec and Ontario but are they really close to overwhelming the system. Ontario I think has 600 ICUs and would guess their covid ICU capacity is in the 800 range. I am in south Texas and my county is under 100 ICUs and during the peak summer surges they were over 300 ICUs. Just being the devil's advocate.


Perhaps as you say, it depends on the province.

BC hospitals seem to be under stress too, and they announced yesterday a new policy. BC used to keep COVID patients apart from other patients, but due to bed and staff shortages, will now be putting vaccinated patients into the same room as COVID patients.

These are worrying compromises, so it's pretty clear the hospitals are under stress, at least in a few provinces. Maybe not in every province though.


----------



## james4beach

At the end of the day, if you can't get hospital care (suspected heart attack, stroke, infections) or are having surgeries cancelled, I think we can agree the hospitals have a problem.

@zinfit it's worth asking which provinces this is happening in.


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> At the end of the day, if you can't get hospital care (suspected heart attack, stroke, infections) or are having surgeries cancelled, I think we can agree the hospitals have a problem.
> 
> @zinfit it's worth asking which provinces this is happening in.


I agree if medically services are being denied it makes sense. I don't believe that is the case in Alberta when I look at the current hospitalization . They are well below the levels we had in September. I can't speak to other provinces . I think that services are being cancelled or restricted in Quebec. When it comes to ICUs is anyone actually employing triage procedures ?


----------



## sags

Alberta is setting up field hospitals, but beds are the easy part. They need trained healthcare staff to administer to patients in those beds.

While the pandemic is going on and there is a nurse shortage, the Province is demanding a cut in wages.









Alberta to open temporary hospital beds as system strains under Omicron


Alberta is opening field hospitals to ease pressures on the health-care system as hospitals fill with COVID-19 patients due to Omicron.




calgaryherald.com





The hospitalizations in Alberta are setting new records.









COVID-19 in Alberta: 4 highest hospitalizations counts have all occurred in last 4 days


There are now a pandemic-high 1,191 COVID-19 patients in hospital, an increase of 277, or 30 per cent, from a week ago.




edmonton.ctvnews.ca


----------



## sags

Premier Kenney is facing a disgruntled electorate. Over two thirds think he should face a leadership review and 60% want him to resign.

A person could conclude that Kenney's "open up" approach to the covid pandemic was a failure.









Two-thirds of Albertans feel Kenney deserves a leadership review, poll suggests


A new poll suggests large public support for Premier Jason Kenney’s leadership review, and even his resignation, while his party is trailing the NDP if a vote…




edmontonjournal.com


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Alberta is setting up field hospitals, but beds are the easy part. They need trained healthcare staff to administer to patients in those beds.
> 
> While the pandemic is going on and there is a nurse shortage, the Province is demanding a cut in wages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alberta to open temporary hospital beds as system strains under Omicron
> 
> 
> Alberta is opening field hospitals to ease pressures on the health-care system as hospitals fill with COVID-19 patients due to Omicron.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> calgaryherald.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The hospitalizations in Alberta are setting new records.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 in Alberta: 4 highest hospitalizations counts have all occurred in last 4 days
> 
> 
> There are now a pandemic-high 1,191 COVID-19 patients in hospital, an increase of 277, or 30 per cent, from a week ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edmonton.ctvnews.ca


 ... your links are from Jan. 20 & 21, 2022 respectly so just a few days old and I thought Alberta numbers were coming down so Ontario can send some of Covid patients over for help. Guess not now.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Premier Kenney is facing a disgruntled electorate. Over two thirds think he should face a leadership review and 60% want him to resign.
> 
> A person could conclude that Kenney's "open up" approach to the covid pandemic was a failure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two-thirds of Albertans feel Kenney deserves a leadership review, poll suggests
> 
> 
> A new poll suggests large public support for Premier Jason Kenney’s leadership review, and even his resignation, while his party is trailing the NDP if a vote…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edmontonjournal.com


 ...the jackaxx is doing fine say the same gang of jackaxxes.


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> Alberta is setting up field hospitals, but beds are the easy part. They need trained healthcare staff to administer to patients in those beds.
> 
> While the pandemic is going on and there is a nurse shortage, the Province is demanding a cut in wages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alberta to open temporary hospital beds as system strains under Omicron
> 
> 
> Alberta is opening field hospitals to ease pressures on the health-care system as hospitals fill with COVID-19 patients due to Omicron.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> calgaryherald.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The hospitalizations in Alberta are setting new records.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 in Alberta: 4 highest hospitalizations counts have all occurred in last 4 days
> 
> 
> There are now a pandemic-high 1,191 COVID-19 patients in hospital, an increase of 277, or 30 per cent, from a week ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edmonton.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUOTE thanks for the update . I see this thing is now catching up to the situation in Central Canada. I still xpect this stuff to peak in the next short while and start dropping. Every second person seems to have caught omicron and has recovered. r is recovering. It eventually runs out of hosts. That can't be very far away.


----------



## Eder

Wow...Canadians starting to get some balls and don't want to take it anymore...hopefully a growing snow ball. Took 45 minutes for the caravan to pass Brooks on hwy #1.
$3600000 already donated in support





UPDATE: GoFundMe to refund all Freedom Convoy 2022 donations (2/5/2022)


The update we issued earlier (below) enabled all donors to get a refund and outlined a plan to distribute remaining funds to verified…




www.gofundme.com




Hopefully our ballerina takes a knee with them for the cameras lol


----------



## james4beach

@zinfit I think something got lost when you tried to reply to @sags

Just repeating here, I think this is what you posted? @zinfit said:
​thanks for the update . I see this thing is now catching up to the situation in Central Canada. I still xpect this stuff to peak in the next short while and start dropping. Every second person seems to have caught omicron and has recovered. r is recovering. It eventually runs out of hosts. That can't be very far away.​​
Yeah I think the prairies are a bit behind the Ontario timeline, same with BC.

I'm still concerned about the numbers in Europe, for example Denmark. Why is this wave so prolonged and continuing, hospital cases and deaths still rising? That's omicron too. They haven't hit a peak yet, and that wave is continuing quite long. Is that what's going to happen to us too?


----------



## londoncalling

Eder said:


> Wow...Canadians starting to get some balls and don't want to take it anymore...hopefully a growing snow ball. Took 45 minutes for the caravan to pass Brooks on hwy #1.
> $3600000 already donated in support
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UPDATE: GoFundMe to refund all Freedom Convoy 2022 donations (2/5/2022)
> 
> 
> The update we issued earlier (below) enabled all donors to get a refund and outlined a plan to distribute remaining funds to verified…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gofundme.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully our ballerina takes a knee with them for the cameras lol


3.6Million? Did any of that money come from CERB payments?  Meanwhile a quick search can find links saying Canadians support jail time for the unvaccinated. 

More than one in four Canadians support jail time for the unvaccinated, poll finds (msn.com) 

Sadly, the most vocal of minorities at opposite ends of the political spectrum grab the headlines each and everyday. We now return to the regularly scheduled programming...

Idiocracy - Trailer | Official Theatrical Trailer | HQ - YouTube


----------



## MrMatt

londoncalling said:


> 3.6Million? Did any of that money come from CERB payments?  Meanwhile a quick search can find links saying Canadians support jail time for the unvaccinated.
> 
> More than one in four Canadians support jail time for the unvaccinated, poll finds (msn.com)
> 
> Sadly, the most vocal of minorities at opposite ends of the political spectrum grab the headlines each and everyday. We now return to the regularly scheduled programming...
> 
> Idiocracy - Trailer | Official Theatrical Trailer | HQ - YouTube


You know at one point in time we thought it was okay to treat people lesser for a number of different reasons. 
So to combat this we invented the concept of human rights, where we couldn't treat people differently for a number of different reasons.
Some of those were immutable characteristics, some of those were for beliefs, and some protected actions.

It used to be that, at least in theory, everyone supported human rights. That is you had to be treated fairly, or the same even if you exercised those rights in a way that others disagreed with.

That is clearly changing.

I actually think it will be an interesting mess if someone who is vaccinated goes to hospital and gets COVID from their COVID positive roommate. Like isn't it generally accepted that someone with a communicable disease should be isolated from other patients?


----------



## londoncalling

"It used to be that, at least in theory, everyone supported human rights. That is you had to be treated fairly, or the same even if you exercised those rights in a way that others disagreed with."

Spot on @MrMatt

The problem most people have regarding human rights is that most believe that they are truly inalienable. Human rights are not absolute or cannot be overridden by other considerations. For example, our true right to freedom of movement can be temporarily forfeited if we are jailed for serious crimes. Conflicts arise when "my rights" are infringed upon when another is trying to exercise "their rights". Who gets to decide whose rights are more important? The benchmark was such that you were free to exercise your rights if they did not cause harm to another person. I don't just mean physical harm but that is often the case. One can be harmed in other ways.

Using this benchmark has become quite flippant and seems to have been cast aside. Now any inconvenience is an infringement on our rights. Unfortunately, the pandemic has had a negative impact on everyone whether they choose to acknowledge it or not. Some have been impacted more than others. It's too bad that it has resulted in people believing that if someone has a different opinion that person must be wrong and should be punished. Not every question of social justice or political action is a human rights issue.


----------



## james4beach

I'm actually shocked that so many Canadians would support jail time for unvaccinated. This is kind of horrifying.

Non-vaccinated people are already locked out of air travel, which I *don't* support, and now (in Quebec) can't even go to Walmart or Canadian Tire. This has really crossed a line because they are deprived of essentials.

I think it's pretty clear at this point that the unvaccinated are being scapegoated, and have become a punching bag for society. There is such a small % of unvaccinated adults in Canada, that it's pretty clear the unvaccinated _are not the ones spreading COVID_. People do have the right to make their own medical decisions. Of course we wish they'd get vaccinated, but (for example) I also wish people would stop drinking alcohol.

Furthermore I feel that the unvaccinated are being scapegoated as a convenience, while society ignores an unpleasant truth: *reckless vaccinated people are driving the COVID spread.*

We also know that higher vaccination rates are unlikely to make any kind of difference in suppressing the wave. This can be seen by looking at countries with higher vaccination rates. We already have one of the highest vaccination rates in the world anyway. This vaccination campaign is DONE... we aren't going to vaccinate any more than we already have.

The restrictions being placed on people who choose to not get vaccinated are violations of universal rights & freedoms in this country. This sets a dangerous precedent if we allow this to continue.


----------



## HappilyRetired

londoncalling said:


> It's too bad that it has resulted in people believing that if someone has a different opinion that person must be wrong and should be punished. Not every question of social justice or political action is a human rights issue.


People just didn't come up with that on their own. They were taught that in school. We have an entire generation of people who were raised to believe that their feelings are more important than anything else.

"Everyone gets a ribbon" has become "Bobby's feelings are just as valid as facts", and if you hurt Bobby's feelings, even by saying something true, then you have done something wrong and must be punished.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> I'm actually shocked that so many Canadians would support jail time for unvaccinated. This is kind of horrifying.


I'm shocked people actually believe small sample online polls could truely represent the population in Canada.


----------



## zinfit

londoncalling said:


> "It used to be that, at least in theory, everyone supported human rights. That is you had to be treated fairly, or the same even if you exercised those rights in a way that others disagreed with."
> 
> Spot on @MrMatt
> 
> The problem most people have regarding human rights is that most believe that they are truly inalienable. Human rights are not absolute or cannot be overridden by other considerations. For example, our true right to freedom of movement can be temporarily forfeited if we are jailed for serious crimes. Conflicts arise when "my rights" are infringed upon when another is trying to exercise "their rights". Who gets to decide whose rights are more important? The benchmark was such that you were free to exercise your rights if they did not cause harm to another person. I don't just mean physical harm but that is often the case. One can be harmed in other ways.
> 
> Using this benchmark has become quite flippant and seems to have been cast aside. Now any inconvenience is an infringement on our rights. Unfortunately, the pandemic has had a negative impact on everyone whether they choose to acknowledge it or not. Some have been impacted more than others. It's too bad that it has resulted in people believing that if someone has a different opinion that person must be wrong and should be punished. Not every question of social justice or political action is a human rights issue.


very well said. No rights are absolute . We live in a relatively free society in which reasonable people fully understand that rights must be compromised in the give and take of life.


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> I'm actually shocked that so many Canadians would support jail time for unvaccinated. This is kind of horrifying.
> 
> Non-vaccinated people are already locked out of air travel, which I *don't* support, and now (in Quebec) can't even go to Walmart or Canadian Tire. This has really crossed a line because they are deprived of essentials.
> 
> I think it's pretty clear at this point that the unvaccinated are being scapegoated, and have become a punching bag for society. There is such a small % of unvaccinated adults in Canada, that it's pretty clear the unvaccinated _are not the ones spreading COVID_. People do have the right to make their own medical decisions. Of course we wish they'd get vaccinated, but (for example) I also wish people would stop drinking alcohol.
> 
> Furthermore I feel that the unvaccinated are being scapegoated as a convenience, while society ignores an unpleasant truth: *reckless vaccinated people are driving the COVID spread.*
> 
> We also know that higher vaccination rates are unlikely to make any kind of difference in suppressing the wave. This can be seen by looking at countries with higher vaccination rates. We already have one of the highest vaccination rates in the world anyway. This vaccination campaign is DONE... we aren't going to vaccinate any more than we already have.
> 
> The restrictions being placed on people who choose to not get vaccinated are violations of universal rights & freedoms in this country. This sets a dangerous precedent if we allow this to continue.


I think you are right. My point of contention with the unvaccinated is the problems they have created for healthcare treatment and the problems they have created for our hospitals. Otherwise I agree with what you are saying. The healthcare problem is not a minor issue especially when we get close to triage protocols. I am waiting for knee surgery. I just read a piece were a Alberta orthopediac surgeon says his number of knee replacements went from 72 per year to 2 per year..


----------



## HappilyRetired

zinfit said:


> I think you are right. My point of contention with the unvaccinated is the problems they have created for healthcare treatment and the problems they have created for our hospitals. Otherwise I agree with what you are saying. The healthcare problem is not a minor issue especially when we get close to triage protocols. I am waiting for knee surgery. I just read a piece were a Alberta orthopediac surgeon says his number of knee replacements went from 72 per year to 2 per year..


His knee surgeries didn't go from 72 to 2 because of Covid. They went from 72 to 2 because of government policy.

Then they told you to blame the unvaccinated to deflect attention from their mistakes.


----------



## zinfit

HappilyRetired said:


> His knee surgeries didn't go from 72 to 2 because of Covid. They went from 72 to 2 because of government policy.
> 
> Then they told you to blame the unvaccinated to deflect attention from their mistakes.


The surgeon is blaming covid. My surgeon in Calgary blames it on covid. IT is challenging for surgeons to get the space and the resources necessary to do their operation in this covid congestion situation.


----------



## damian13ster

I don't find it surprising at all.
Majority always wants to scapegoat, single out, and abuse minority. They just need to be primed and allowed to do it.
Nowadays they are encouraged to do so and are happy to. Human nature, and that's why human rights were created - to protect the minority from the majority. To have logic and law be superior to feelings, and urge to abuse and exert power.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> I don't find it surprising at all.
> Majority always wants to scapegoat, single out, and abuse minority. They just need to be primed and allowed to do it.
> Nowadays they are encouraged to do so and are happy to. Human nature, and that's why human rights were created - to protect the minority from the majority. To have logic and law be superior to feelings, and urge to abuse and exert power.


 ... so you just discovered this concept as "new" and making a big stink by re-spinning it as "scapegoating"? You should expand your angles (aka thinking) abit like beyond the "Covid" excuse before your voice will gets heard even.

Like I mentioned before (with no repeat after this 3rd time), the Covid "minority" "scapegoat (boo hoo)" is a self-made one. Get used to it.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> I think you are right. My point of contention with the unvaccinated is the problems they have created for healthcare treatment and the problems they have created for our hospitals. Otherwise I agree with what you are saying. The healthcare problem is not a minor issue especially when we get close to triage protocols. I am waiting for knee surgery. I just read a piece were a Alberta orthopediac surgeon says his number of knee replacements went from 72 per year to 2 per year..


Well I agree here as well, there has been a higher load on healthcare because of unvaccinated throughout the pandemic. Don't get me wrong, I would hope that most people get vaccinated. From everything we've seen, the primary 2 shot series goes a long way to prevent serious illness and does relieve the burden on the hospitals.

And we've also been in an emergency kind of situation, this isn't business as usual at the hospitals. I'm definitely concerned about that, but I still don't support forcing the population to undergo a somewhat invasive medical intervention.


----------



## peterk

Thanks for supporting a non-extremist position on this James. That is reassuring.

Aren't the % of hospitalizations of vaccinated approaching the % of vaccine uptake of the general population (80-90%)? It seems with this new information that any thought that continuing vaccine mandates and segregation is justifiable (which it absolutely isn't anyways) just went out the window.


----------



## zinfit

peterk said:


> Thanks for supporting a non-extremist position on this James. That is reassuring.
> 
> Aren't the % of hospitalizations of vaccinated approaching the % of vaccine uptake of the general population (80-90%)? It seems with this new information that any thought that continuing vaccine mandates and segregation is justifiable (which it absolutely isn't anyways) just went out the window.


In Alberta close to 90%. of the over 50 crowd is taking up the ICU capacity. The vaccination rate of the over 50 crowd is around 90%. So 10% are causing 90% of the problem in that department. The people working in ICUs have been stressed out for almost 2 years. At some point they will break under this pressure. Your numbers might be accurate for hospitalizations but it isn't the case for ICUs.


----------



## james4beach

peterk said:


> Aren't the % of hospitalizations of vaccinated approaching the % of vaccine uptake of the general population (80-90%)?


You're talking about a population-adjusted number I think. BC is currently reporting these "cases hospitalized per 100,000 population after adjusting for age"

Not vaccinated: 71.0
Fully vaccinated: 16.9

So unvaccinated people in BC are being hospitalized at a rate of 4x vaccinated people. But I've been watching this figure and the margin is actually shrinking. It used to be something like 40x but has been trending downward during omicron.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I'm actually shocked that so many Canadians would support jail time for unvaccinated. This is kind of horrifying.


Then you haven't been paying attention.



> Non-vaccinated people are already locked out of air travel, which I *don't* support, and now (in Quebec) can't even go to Walmart or Canadian Tire. This has really crossed a line because they are deprived of essentials.


What about being fired without notice, severance or the ability to get EI?



> I think it's pretty clear at this point that the unvaccinated are being scapegoated,
> .....
> The restrictions being placed on people who choose to not get vaccinated are violations of universal rights & freedoms in this country. This sets a dangerous precedent if we allow this to continue.


Congrats, you're seeing it.
Be careful, someones going to accuse you of becoming a radicalized right winger.


----------



## Eder

As much as our current Covid rules make no sense I lol'd at German rules...


----------



## Beaver101

Quebec to track COVID rapid test results; Saskatchewan considers lifting restrictions

It'll be interesting to see 1. if this exercise by Quebec (surprisingly) will be successful, and 2. what benefits will come out with all the results tracked.


----------



## Beaver101

'I feel forgotten': Patients in Ontario wait for surgeries postponed due to COVID-19

In the meantime, I'm waiting for Ontario's health minister Ms. Elliott to address this "growing" problem.


----------



## bgc_fan

Looks like natural immunity after infection isn't as strong as it's made out to be:
_Among the 3,582 swab-positive individuals reporting whether or not they had had previous infection, 2,315 (*64.6%*) reported confirmed previous COVID-19._


https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/93887/7/R17_updated_final.pdf



As for those who recover, they have a higher risk of death or hospitalization than those who weren't hospitalized.








Overall and cause-specific hospitalisation and death after COVID-19 hospitalisation in England: A cohort study using linked primary care, secondary care, and death registration data in the OpenSAFELY platform


Krishnan Bhaskaran and co-workers study health outcomes after admission with COVID-19 and subsequent discharge.




journals.plos.org


----------



## Beaver101

I'm afraid you'll be labelled as a fear-monger there by ... non-Covid believers aka anti-vaxxers, their supporters, their enablers, their encouragers, the regretters along with the wannabees.


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> I'm afraid you'll be labelled as a fear-monger there by ... non-Covid believers aka anti-vaxxers, their supporters, their enablers, their encouragers, the regretters along with the wannabees.


yes they have been the masters of half truths, a pile of twisting, a pile of denying reality and worshippers of snake oil salesman. They reap what they sow.


----------



## james4beach

bgc_fan said:


> As for those who recover, they have a higher risk of death or hospitalization than those who weren't hospitalized.


Yikes. A big reason I've been trying my best to not catch covid is that we still don't really understand this thing. It may be true that I'm going to catch it at some point, but I have tried to delay that as long as possible. There are more studies coming out all the time.

IMO the measures like vaccination, masks, and reducing one's partying are important ways to *buy time* as we learn about the disease and figure out what's going on.

Here's one example. In the early days, people who ended in hospitals had poor survival rates. Those on ventilators were dying. Over time the treatments have improved dramatically. The docs learned to give steroids and use other measures to reduce inflammation. People figured out how to use the ventilators properly, and the deaths reduced.

Someone who gets a serious case of covid today has a MUCH better average outcome than someone who got it two years ago. That's the benefit of buying time. Now we've got new drugs for treatment rolling out too.

My friend's dad, unfortunately, died of Covid during the initial outbreak. It's just bad luck really, to get Covid in that first wave when our medical system had zero ability to handle it. In fact we all went to his funeral without masks, and mingled. By the way thanks to help from CMF, on my way to that funeral, people gave me tips on how to avoid shaking hands and avoiding contact with people. And to give you a sense of how clueless we all were, one of my friends (an ER doctor) who went to the funeral with me, during the funeral, was telling me how the hospital was getting overloaded with flu patients and people had started to die all over the place.


----------



## Money172375

Denmark deciding to move on from restrictions despite high cases.









Denmark Scraps Covid-19 Restrictions, But Travelers May Still Need Negative Test


Denmark’s prime minister Mette Frederiksen has announced the end of virtually all Covid-19 measures within the country in what she called a “milestone” moment.




www.forbes.com


----------



## Beaver101

^ Glad I live in Ontario and Ford still has his marbles intact with respect to the masks mandate.


----------



## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> Yikes. A big reason I've been trying my best to not catch covid is that we still don't really understand this thing. It may be true that I'm going to catch it at some point, but I have tried to delay that as long as possible. There are more studies coming out all the time.
> 
> IMO the measures like vaccination, masks, and reducing one's partying are important ways to *buy time* as we learn about the disease and figure out what's going on.
> 
> Here's one example. In the early days, people who ended in hospitals had poor survival rates. Those on ventilators were dying. Over time the treatments have improved dramatically. The docs learned to give steroids and use other measures to reduce inflammation. People figured out how to use the ventilators properly, and the deaths reduced.
> 
> Someone who gets a serious case of covid today has a MUCH better average outcome than someone who got it two years ago. That's the benefit of buying time. Now we've got new drugs for treatment rolling out too.
> 
> My friend's dad, unfortunately, died of Covid during the initial outbreak. It's just bad luck really, to get Covid in that first wave when our medical system had zero ability to handle it. In fact we all went to his funeral without masks, and mingled. By the way thanks to help from CMF, on my way to that funeral, people gave me tips on how to avoid shaking hands and avoiding contact with people. And to give you a sense of how clueless we all were, one of my friends (an ER doctor) who went to the funeral with me, during the funeral, was telling me how the hospital was getting overloaded with flu patients and people had started to die all over the place.


I think that it's worth pointing out that if there are long term consequences outside of long-term covid issues. Who knows if it will impact health insurance and if they're going to add that to their screening form, i.e. have you had covid, have you gotten the vaccine.

The other thing about people getting covid now vs at the beginning is that they are younger as well. Since age is a factor in severity, it has a relatively lower death rate.


----------



## damian13ster

It is also much less severe for majority of population because it doesn't attack lungs the way previous variants used to be.
That's the thing with buying time to 'learn' though. They didn't get Delta figured out, and now Omicron came with multiple mutations, completely different symptoms, and attacking different parts of your body. So the experts still don't know **** and we are instead relying on data and statistics. By the time they figure out Omicron, another variant will come. Look at the longevity of various variants during this endemic.

That's why countries are starting to smarten up and simply accept it. If you can't 'win', then might as well not hurt yourself while fighting proverbial windmills. Better to lose than to lose after shooting yourself in a foot.
Unfortunately Canada and China will be the last countries to smarten up. The latter because of propaganda that relies on zero-COVID policy, the former because it is run by idiots


----------



## Beaver101

^ You're still living and blowing smoke here (the Canada run by idiots), ain't you? So when are you going to get your own Freedom Island?


----------



## MK7GTI

Beaver101 said:


> ^ You're still living and blowing smoke here (the Canada run by idiots), ain't you? So when are you going to get your own Freedom Island?


Your the worst. Get over yourself.


----------



## Beaver101

MK7GTI said:


> Your the worst. Get over yourself.


 ... and you're the best ... at what? 2 bits sounding? Perhaps you should try it and get yourself off this forum if you can't stand it. Or are you waiting for an invite too?

Btw, damianster doesn't need your support - he's been in this thread as long as I have. Everyday whining, spinning and blowing smoke (polite version) here getting nowhere. I'm still waiting for his answers on his "rapid tests" theory to ending the pandemic plus the latest - which is the rest of society the he was referring in agreement with his posts? Perhaps you?


----------



## Beaver101

New antiviral treatment for COVID-19 will be mostly set aside for use in older unvaccinated individuals and immunocompromised Ontarians

Looks like young healthy hold-out vaxxers are doo-doo out of luck with getting this anti-vIral pill alternative to the "jab". At least in Ontario. Limited supply too.


----------



## james4beach

bgc_fan said:


> I think that it's worth pointing out that if there are long term consequences outside of long-term covid issues. Who knows if it will impact health insurance and if they're going to add that to their screening form, i.e. have you had covid, have you gotten the vaccine.


Interesting points. I had not thought about that but you're right, if it turns out that a bad case of covid correlates with (wild speculation here) lung disease, then we could see insurers care if you once caught covid.

Personally I plan to continue avoiding covid to the extent it's reasonable. I would rather not catch it.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Interesting points. I had not thought about that but you're right, if it turns out that a bad case of covid correlates with (wild speculation here) lung disease, then *we could see insurers care if you once caught covid.*


 ... re bolded part - you touched on t it before I could comment. Just the other day, I caught a headline that stated catching Covid will reduce your life-expectancy by half a year (which I think is far too little). I'm certain the insurance companies are going to update their mortality tables = premiums for this. Plus take into Quebec's stats on rapid tests results (plus any others).



> Personally I plan to continue avoiding covid to the extent it's reasonable. I would rather not catch it.


 ... smart. No thanks to the cooties.


----------



## zinfit

From a healthcare standpoint I supported vaccine mandates. It has been successful I believe close to 90% of the population over 5 years of age are vaccinated. This has certainly helped in managing a healthcare crisis. If we are over the crest with covid I think it is an appropriate time to back off from mandates. Governments should be focused on improving hospital capacity and anti-virial treatments and other effective treatments. We cannot continue to live in a bunker mentality dominated by fear. We need to focus on the economy and repairing our dreadful public finances. If you are a high risk person when it comes to covid the responsibility rests with you to protect your well being. If you stay away from other people and stay in your own home you should be safe.


----------



## Saintor

james4beach said:


> I'm actually shocked that so many Canadians would support jail time for unvaccinated. This is kind of horrifying.


Totally. This is how the crazy "new talibans" think.  At the same time, Israel as a pioneer country in massive vaccination, has a worse covid-related death rate than the Palestine/Jordan, many times less vaccinated. All those insane de-measures are a massive fail; they didn't achieve much aside from closing small businesses and exploding our debts.... for no result.


----------



## zinfit

Saintor said:


> Totally. This is how the crazy "new talibans" think.  At the same time, Israel as a pioneer country in massive vaccination, has a worse covid-related death rate than the Palestine/Jordan, many times less vaccinated. All those insane de-measures are a massive fail; they didn't achieve much aside from closing small businesses and exploding our debts.... for no result.


Old news the vaccines don't prevent infection but they do provide a high degree of protection to extreme outcomes. Look at the number of unvaccinated in our ICU units.


----------



## s1231

bgc_fan said:


> Looks like natural immunity after infection isn't as strong as it's made out to be:
> _Among the 3,582 swab-positive individuals reporting whether or not they had had previous infection, 2,315 (*64.6%*) reported confirmed previous COVID-19._
> 
> 
> https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/93887/7/R17_updated_final.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> As for those who recover, they have a higher risk of death or hospitalization than those who weren't hospitalized.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overall and cause-specific hospitalisation and death after COVID-19 hospitalisation in England: A cohort study using linked primary care, secondary care, and death registration data in the OpenSAFELY platform
> 
> 
> Krishnan Bhaskaran and co-workers study health outcomes after admission with COVID-19 and subsequent discharge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> journals.plos.org











Natural immunity more potent than vaccines during US Delta wave: study


During America's last surge of the coronavirus driven by the Delta variant, people who were unvaccinated but survived Covid were better protected than those who were vaccinated and not previously infected,…




www.france24.com




The new study involved patients in New York and California between May 30 to November 30, 2021.
Prior to Delta becoming dominant, vaccination conferred greater immunity than infection. But the relationship shifted when the variant became predominant in late June and July.

By the week of October 3, case rates among vaccinated people without prior Covid were around six times lower in California and five times lower in New York compared to those who were unvaccinated and without prior Covid.
Protection was highest among those who had both vaccination and prior Covid.
Hospitalizations followed a similar pattern.

Other research, including a notable paper from Israel in August, have similarly found that natural immunity was more potent than vaccines during the Delta surge.
But the US CDC had previously taken the opposite position, based on pre-Delta data.


----------



## s1231

james4beach said:


> Is this true? People aren't scared?
> 
> They aren't concerned that a severe acute covid infection may cause organ damage, lung damage, or incredible inflammation? How about an inflammatory shock to the body that could leave them more vulnerable to other infections going forward?
> 
> Call me crazy but I like my heart and lungs. They have proved to be useful so far and I'm hoping to use them for another 60 years.





https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-11-2-3/04-COVID-Oster-508.pdf




















mRNA inventor says young adults shouldn't have to get COVID vaccine


powered by Microsoft News


----------



## james4beach

s1231 said:


> https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-11-2-3/04-COVID-Oster-508.pdf


It's true that the vaccines can cause heart inflammation, but COVID also causes the same inflammation. And it appears that it's more common with infection, than vaccination.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> It's true that the vaccines can cause heart inflammation, but COVID also causes the same inflammation. And it appears that it's more common with infection, than vaccination.


 ... in which case, the anti-vaxxer can go get a medical exemption and take his/her chance with Covid in the open. Mask or not. Social distancing or not. To be employed or not.


----------



## Spudd

Also, Dr. Robert Malone is pimping himself as the inventor of mRNA vaccines but he is just peddling misinformation.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/01/24/robert-malone-vaccine-misinformation-rogan-mandates/


----------



## james4beach

Bonnie Henry, BC's public health officer, recommends a change to the way we handle the pandemic. The virus properties have changed. It has a shorter incubation period and is much more widespread. Contact tracing is not feasible, and previous tools to fight the pandemic aren't effective any more.

Additionally, so much of our population now has some level of immunity, that this isn't like a year ago when nobody had any immunity. The interview with her is on "The Current", linked here:


https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent



She's not endorsing that people go and start taking risks. Covid is still dangerous, and she still advises wearing a mask indoors and getting vaccinated. But she's saying that disruptions to society, closing schools and university, and trying to trace and close businesses, is becoming less feasible and we're getting less benefit it from it due to how the virus has changed.


----------



## Money172375

Dr. Moore in Ontario says it’s time to start living with COVID. I agree, but get ready to hear “the I told you so” from the anti-vaxxer and anti-lockdown groups.









Ontario's top doctor says it's time to learn to live with COVID-19


Ontario's top doctor says it’s time to 'learn to live with COVID-19' as he anticipates the province is in for a much better spring.




toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## HappilyRetired

He did research that was very useful in the development but he didn't invent it.

So what. Fauci has outright lied repeatedly and he has far more power than Malone and his recommendations are used to enact public policy. Fauci is the real danger.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Money172375 said:


> get ready to hear “the I told you so” from the anti-vaxxer and anti-lockdown groups.


That would be like soldiers at the front all running away from the enemy and when the enemy finally walks over and takes that position, yelling "see I told you we were going to lose that battle".

The question of the pandemic coming to an end was not the uncertainty. It was what goes on in between and how long it is going to take, were the only questions with uncertainty and various outcomes.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Dr. Moore in Ontario says it’s time to start living with COVID. I agree, but get ready to hear “the I told you so” from the anti-vaxxer and anti-lockdown groups.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario's top doctor says it's time to learn to live with COVID-19
> 
> 
> Ontario's top doctor says it’s time to 'learn to live with COVID-19' as he anticipates the province is in for a much better spring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.ctvnews.ca


 ... not enough. Dr. Moore needs to give guidelines to the public as to "how to start living with it" other than live with it like the flu or the "gradual approach". 

But not *first* without 1. addressing the backlog (cancelled surgeries, etc.) in Ontario's hospitals, and 2. "a plan" to removing / clearing up the backlog. Don't sugar-coat with the obvious mumble-jumbles (like a politician) instead as a medical "doctor".


----------



## zinfit

s1231 said:


> https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-11-2-3/04-COVID-Oster-508.pdf
> 
> 
> View attachment 22730
> 
> View attachment 22731
> 
> 
> 
> mRNA inventor says young adults shouldn't have to get COVID vaccine
> 
> 
> powered by Microsoft News
> View attachment 22732


 Based on the data younger males should be choosing Phizer . When examing the actual cases of heart inflammation the cases are very mild for the vaccinated. This is not the case for the unvaccinated who get covid. 
Based on this data young males should be choosing the Phizer


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> Based on the data younger males should be choosing Phizer . When examing the actual cases of heart inflammation the cases are very mild for the vaccinated. This is not the case for the unvaccinated who get covid.
> Based on this data young males should be choosing the Phizer


 ... that's why Ontario is holdingback the Pfizers for 30s under. Not sure it's gender-based though.


----------



## bgc_fan

s1231 said:


> Natural immunity more potent than vaccines during US Delta wave: study
> 
> 
> During America's last surge of the coronavirus driven by the Delta variant, people who were unvaccinated but survived Covid were better protected than those who were vaccinated and not previously infected,…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.france24.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new study involved patients in New York and California between May 30 to November 30, 2021.
> Prior to Delta becoming dominant, vaccination conferred greater immunity than infection. But the relationship shifted when the variant became predominant in late June and July.
> 
> By the week of October 3, case rates among vaccinated people without prior Covid were around six times lower in California and five times lower in New York compared to those who were unvaccinated and without prior Covid.
> Protection was highest among those who had both vaccination and prior Covid.
> Hospitalizations followed a similar pattern.
> 
> Other research, including a notable paper from Israel in August, have similarly found that natural immunity was more potent than vaccines during the Delta surge.
> But the US CDC had previously taken the opposite position, based on pre-Delta data.


The problem is that is old news and irrelevant now considering that Omicron is the more common variant. The UK study is more relevant now.

But as you pointed out, the best protection is getting the vaccination and prior covid. You can't control getting covid unless you want to hang around the ICUs, but vaccination is easier to manage. Not to mention the side effect of getting covid and being one of those unlucky people who end up hospitalized or dead. Of course, everyone thinks that they have a healthy immune system, but we've seen enough stories about unvaccinated people trusting their natural immunity and end up dying.


----------



## Saintor

zinfit said:


> Old news the vaccines don't prevent infection but they do provide a high degree of protection to extreme outcomes. Look at the number of unvaccinated in our ICU units.



It is not old news, it is actual news. Today, covid-assumed death rate in Palestine/Jordan is less than in Israel, despite vaccination rate being a fraction. And there are plenty of similar cases within the USA states.


----------



## OptsyEagle

This pandemic is evolving. At this stage I believe that we could keep the vaccine mandates and passports and have a significant pandemic challenge ahead of us OR we could end them tomorrow and have pretty much the identical issues facing us. In my opinion, the vaccine passports/mandates did a wonderful job and were a complete success. For example, at the end of September, Ontario had almost 500,000 unvaccinated citizens age 50 or older. Today that number has dropped to less then half, and that alone would have provided significant benefit to our healthcare system. But, as you should have noticed by now, the unvaccinated are not our only problem.

It is my opinion, that from this point on the vaccine passports/mandates will provide us very little benefit and if continued will just be an issue of distraction and division. If we maintain them going forward, we should all know that we will still have a significant challenge ahead of us in dealing with this virus. If we end them tomorrow, the challenge ahead of us will be virtually the same. It is time to end the passports/mandates and start dealing with the serious issues we still face.

In my opinion, we are seriously lacking answers to the following important questions:

*1) Who are these fully vaccinated people in our hospitals and ICUs? * Specifically, I want to know if they are average Canadians, or older Canadians or immune compromised Canadians, etc.
*2) What type of immunity does infection from Omicron actually provide.* I think I saw one study that showed that Omicron infection was very good at protecting a person from itself and previous variants, but we do need a lot more information on this.
*3) What are the longer term effects of very frequent vaccination boosters.* We know how the 1 and 2 shots have worked, and I have no problem recommending those to anyone. We have preliminary information on 3rd doses, but we need to know what this might do to our bodies longer term. There is limited evidence that the waning of protection against infection happens quicker as you keep boosting with this stuff, so we need to be darn sure we are not doing more harm then good with all these boosters.

If anyone has any information or studies relating to those 3 items I would find them very useful in helping myself decide how I am going to proceed going forward. If I come across anything I will be sure to post it as well.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> ...
> In my opinion, we are seriously lacking answers to the following important questions:
> 
> *1) Who are these fully vaccinated people in our hospitals and ICUs? * Specifically, I want to know if they are average Canadians, or older Canadians or immune compromised Canadians, etc.
> *2) What type of immunity does infection from Omicron actually provide.* I think I saw one study that showed that Omicron infection was very good at protecting a person from itself and previous variants, but we do need a lot more information on this.
> *3) What are the longer term effects of very frequent vaccination boosters.* We know how the 1 and 2 shots have worked, and I have no problem recommending those to anyone. We have preliminary information on 3rd doses, but we need to know what this might do to our bodies longer term. There is limited evidence that the waning of protection against infection happens quicker as you keep boosting with this stuff, so we need to be darn sure we are not doing more harm then good with all these boosters.
> 
> If anyone has any information or studies relating to those 3 items I would find them very useful in helping myself decide how I am going to proceed going forward. If I come across anything I will be sure to post it as well.


 ... my comments (not answers as don't have) to your questions above:

1. Why? Are you a doctor, nurse, medical-care provider in need of those stats? And why only the "vaccinateds". What happens to the unvaxxed who show up there?

2. You might want to ask Omicron (along with any subvariants) that question.

3. You might want to ask the vaccine producers that question for "an answer of some kind" or bring out your crystal-ball.

As just noticed, I would like to point out that you appear to have your own answer with the very first sentence: The pandemic is evolving.


----------



## james4beach

Saintor said:


> It is not old news, it is actual news. Today, covid-assumed death rate in Palestine/Jordan is less than in Israel, despite vaccination rate being a fraction. And there are plenty of similar cases within the USA states.


One has to be very cautious when comparing one country or population to another. I don't know all the demographics here but I suspect the population of Palestine is much younger than Israel. There could also be wild differences in the quality of medical care. Palestine is very poor and barely has functioning medical facilities, whereas Israel is very rich and has world class healthcare. There is no way they have equivalent levels of covid monitoring or testing.

The best comparisons are between similar first world countries with roughly similar demographics and medical systems. For example Canada vs European countries makes for a good comparison.


----------



## Saintor

james4beach said:


> One has to be very cautious when comparing one country or population to another. I don't know all the demographics here but I suspect the population of Palestine is much younger than Israel. There could also be wild differences in the quality of medical care. Palestine is very poor and barely has functioning medical facilities, whereas Israel is very rich and has world class healthcare. There is no way they have equivalent levels of covid monitoring or testing.
> 
> The best comparisons are between similar first world countries with roughly similar demographics and medical systems. For example Canada vs European countries makes for a good comparison.


Still, way less vaccinated states like Florida and their open policy fares BETTER death rates than the ultra zealous highly vaccinated states like New York, New Jersey Massachusetts & Rhode Island. Keep a little reserve. BTW, Canada's density is totally different from Euro countries.


----------



## Money172375

Saintor said:


> Still, way less vaccinated states like Florida and their open policy fares BETTER death rates than the ultra zealous highly vaccinated states like New York, New Jersey Massachusetts & Rhode Island. Keep a little reserve. BTW, Canada's density is totally different from Euro countries.


Also keep in mind average temps. Everyone in Florida is outside socializing. In NY, it’s the opposite.


----------



## james4beach

Saintor said:


> Still, way less vaccinated states like Florida and their open policy fares BETTER death rates than the ultra zealous highly vaccinated states


You're reading too much into the Florida vs NY case, as there were serious initial pandemic outbreaks in the NY and tri states area. That's an extremely dense population that got hit incredibly hard by the initial outbreak. They had no chance to fight it, and has no vaccines. The NY area is exposed to European travel and probably had contagion, leading the country in the timeline.

Additionally, Florida's per capita death rate is actually higher than the US average, not exactly a success story.

If you look at the death rate per 1M stats, there is a wide mix of states (using a variety of strategies) and I don't see any clear pattern. The major states with *below average* US death rates were: Kansas, Idaho, Maryland, Wisconsin, Minnesota, California, Colorado, North Carolina, Nebraska, Virginia, Oregon, Alaska, Washington, Utah, Hawaii

That's a big mix of states which were very highly vaccinated (HI, MD, WA, OR, CA, CO) and others which were not highly vaccinated.

Again, really not a clear pattern at first glance. Florida has above average death rates so there's no point in studying them as an example, but one could look at these below average death rate states and see if there's anything common.



Money172375 said:


> Also keep in mind average temps. Everyone in Florida is outside socializing. In NY, it’s the opposite.


And despite this, Florida had death rates above the national average. They also had an extremely bad previous wave with a huge spike in deaths.


----------



## Saintor

james4beach said:


> Additionally, Florida's per capita death rate is actually higher than the US average, not exactly a success story.


As the four highly vaccinated states I listed that are doing worse than Florida.... inconclusive at best.


----------



## Zipper

I have been a pallbearer for the last 20 years.

We interred an individual earlier this week.

The 6 of us had a very good conversation with the Funeral Director.

To sum up, fat, 70, and unvaccinated. What could go wrong?

Multiple organ failure is a horrible way to die.


----------



## zinfit

s1231 said:


> https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-11-2-3/04-COVID-Oster-508.pdf
> 
> 
> View attachment 22730
> 
> View attachment 22731
> 
> 
> 
> mRNA inventor says young adults shouldn't have to get COVID vaccine
> 
> 
> powered by Microsoft News
> View attachment 22732


 Based on the data younger males should be choosing Phizer . When examing the actual cases of heart inflammation the cases are very mild for the vaccinated. This is an issue with unvaccinated who get covid and in many of those cases the inflamation of the heart is more severe.
Based on this data young males should be choosing the Phizer.


----------



## Beaver101

Zipper said:


> I have been a pallbearer for the last 20 years.
> 
> We interred an individual earlier this week.
> 
> The 6 of us had a very good conversation with the Funeral Director.
> 
> To sum up, fat, 70, and unvaccinated. What could go wrong?
> 
> *Multiple organ failure is a horrible way to die.*


 ... but not first being intubated or the need for air. Death by asphyxiation is just as bad, particularly for the young.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Saskatoon losing Riversdale restaurants Seoul Korean and Leyda's *
Seoul Korean Restaurant and Leyda's Cafe, both located on 20th Street West, are shuttering this week. The Movement YXE gym will also close on Feb. 25.
A pair of Riversdale eateries are closing amid a challenging year for restaurants.
Pshebylo said he heard from staff that COVID-19 pressures played a role in the closure.
Just shy of its sixth anniversary, The Movement YXE will close on Feb. 25. A Tuesday Facebook post said with its current lease ending “and the past couple years being difficult to navigate” during the pandemic, this was the best decision to make as a business.

hopefully this will bring some joy to all covid followers.


----------



## james4beach

Zipper said:


> The 6 of us had a very good conversation with the Funeral Director.
> 
> To sum up, fat, 70, and unvaccinated. What could go wrong?
> 
> Multiple organ failure is a horrible way to die.


Just awful. And that's too young. Did covid cause his illness?


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Saskatoon losing Riversdale restaurants Seoul Korean and Leyda's *
> Seoul Korean Restaurant and Leyda's Cafe, both located on 20th Street West, are shuttering this week. The Movement YXE gym will also close on Feb. 25.
> A pair of Riversdale eateries are closing amid a challenging year for restaurants.
> Pshebylo said he heard from staff that COVID-19 pressures played a role in the closure.
> Just shy of its sixth anniversary, The Movement YXE will close on Feb. 25. A Tuesday Facebook post said with its current lease ending “and the past couple years being difficult to navigate” during the pandemic, this was the best decision to make as a business.
> 
> *hopefully this will bring some joy to all covid followers.*


 ... I presume this would include you as well? And more-so as half of CMF Covid commentators don't reside in Saskatoon which means non applicable. 

Now, this is Cafe Diplomatico closes outdoor patio relevant to Torontonians. Only comment to this headline it's self-inflicted by a greedy dumb owner.


----------



## Beaver101

Omicron drives U.S. deaths higher than in fall's delta wave

Re above link, just in:
Carla K. Johnson, The Associated Press
Published Friday, January 28, 2022 3:33PM EST

I thought Omicron wasn't as deadly???? Guess not ... for the USA, land of the brave and free.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Dr. Moore in Ontario says it’s time to start living with COVID. I agree, but get ready to hear “the I told you so” from the anti-vaxxer and anti-lockdown groups.


Sure but of course the situation today is not the situation 2 months ago, and not the situation last year, and not the situation March 2020.


----------



## Zipper

james4beach said:


> Just awful. And that's too young. Did covid cause his illness?


Yes. We had 2 this week and the second was even younger. Both were unvaccinated. The director said covid victims experience a faster breakdown of body tissues on death.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Zipper said:


> Yes. We had 2 this week and the second was even younger. Both were unvaccinated. The director said covid victims experience a faster breakdown of body tissues on death.


My uncle in Ukraine also got covid, unvaccinated, sore throat for two days. his wife vaccinated twice, also got covid, was coughing for a week.
I prefer to get my information from real world, not from statistics.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> My uncle in Ukraine also got covid, unvaccinated, sore throat for two days. his wife vaccinated twice, also got covid, was coughing for a week.
> I prefer to get my information from real world, not from statistics.


 ... wasn't it your 92 year grandpa who got Covid and only experienced a "flu"? And now it's an uncle? So that's your real made-up world?

Btw, zipper had to be a pallbearer so he's telling from first hand, not your stats.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> My uncle in Ukraine also got covid, unvaccinated, sore throat for two days. his wife vaccinated twice, also got covid, was coughing for a week.
> I prefer to get my information from real world, not from statistics.


I also prefer to get my information from the real world, not from anecdotes.


----------



## zinfit

Ukrainiandude said:


> My uncle in Ukraine also got covid, unvaccinated, sore throat for two days. his wife vaccinated twice, also got covid, was coughing for a week.
> I prefer to get my information from real world, not from statistics.


or from getting your information from people who work in ICUs or from your family doctor .


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Just awful. And that's too young. Did covid cause his illness?


If you're 70 and fat you're already on borrowed time. Maybe he couldn't have prevented getting Covid, but it was his choice to be overweight and put himself at a higher risk.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> It's true that the vaccines can cause heart inflammation, but COVID also causes the same inflammation. And it appears that it's more common with infection, than vaccination.


That depends on age group and vaccine.
For example males under 40 are 12 times as likely to be hospitalized or die with myocarditis after moderna than after infection.

The risk/reward ratio varies based on gender and age


----------



## damian13ster

OptsyEagle said:


> This pandemic is evolving. At this stage I believe that we could keep the vaccine mandates and passports and have a significant pandemic challenge ahead of us OR we could end them tomorrow and have pretty much the identical issues facing us. In my opinion, the vaccine passports/mandates did a wonderful job and were a complete success. For example, at the end of September, Ontario had almost 500,000 unvaccinated citizens age 50 or older. Today that number has dropped to less then half, and that alone would have provided significant benefit to our healthcare system. But, as you should have noticed by now, the unvaccinated are not our only problem.
> 
> It is my opinion, that from this point on the vaccine passports/mandates will provide us very little benefit and if continued will just be an issue of distraction and division. If we maintain them going forward, we should all know that we will still have a significant challenge ahead of us in dealing with this virus. If we end them tomorrow, the challenge ahead of us will be virtually the same. It is time to end the passports/mandates and start dealing with the serious issues we still face.
> 
> In my opinion, we are seriously lacking answers to the following important questions:
> 
> *1) Who are these fully vaccinated people in our hospitals and ICUs? * Specifically, I want to know if they are average Canadians, or older Canadians or immune compromised Canadians, etc.
> *2) What type of immunity does infection from Omicron actually provide.* I think I saw one study that showed that Omicron infection was very good at protecting a person from itself and previous variants, but we do need a lot more information on this.
> *3) What are the longer term effects of very frequent vaccination boosters.* We know how the 1 and 2 shots have worked, and I have no problem recommending those to anyone. We have preliminary information on 3rd doses, but we need to know what this might do to our bodies longer term. There is limited evidence that the waning of protection against infection happens quicker as you keep boosting with this stuff, so we need to be darn sure we are not doing more harm then good with all these boosters.
> 
> If anyone has any information or studies relating to those 3 items I would find them very useful in helping myself decide how I am going to proceed going forward. If I come across anything I will be sure to post it as well.


You assume the goal of vaccine mandates is to increase vaccination rates. That is no longer the case. Now the goal is to promote hate and division, and they will remain as long as polls tell politicians that division and hate is beneficial for their chances in elections


----------



## OptsyEagle

damian13ster said:


> You assume the goal of vaccine mandates is to increase vaccination rates. That is no longer the case. Now the goal is to promote hate and division, and they will remain as long as polls tell politicians that division and hate is beneficial for their chances in elections


No, increasing vaccination rates from vaccine passports/mandates was my goal. I really have no idea what anyone else's goal was. It's not like they were going to be able to do much else.


----------



## damian13ster

OptsyEagle said:


> No, increasing vaccination rates from vaccine passports/mandates was my goal. I really have no idea what anyone else's goal was. It's not like they were able to do much else.


You weren't the one who made the decision to introduce them so your goal is kind of irrelevant here. 
They are doing much else. They are dividing the country, turned Canadians against each other, gave much higher power to the governments, and created a wedge issue that could be utilized in the federal election.
We will disagree that 'it's not like they were able to do much else'. They literally destroyed any cohesiveness that this country had. Now there are just bunch of tribes who wish penalties, jail, and worse upon others simply because they belong to different tribe. 
The question is if the country can ever recover from that


----------



## londoncalling

BA.2 in Canada: Tam says officials are watching new Omicron subvariant ‘very closely’ (msn.com)


----------



## OptsyEagle

damian13ster said:


> You weren't the one who made the decision to introduce them so your goal is kind of irrelevant here.
> They are doing much else. They are dividing the country, turned Canadians against each other, gave much higher power to the governments, and created a wedge issue that could be utilized in the federal election.
> We will disagree that 'it's not like they were able to do much else'. They literally destroyed any cohesiveness that this country had. Now there are just bunch of tribes who wish penalties, jail, and worse upon others simply because they belong to different tribe.
> The question is if the country can ever recover from that


That may be. I was referring to my goal more as the reason why I supported vaccine passports, not to insinuate any part in their creation. You are talking about the fallout and I explained the benefit. We really needed those citizen's, age 50 and older, to get vaccinated. There is a price for everything. It's not like our leaders could have announced the main reason for the passports and mandates to be forced vaccination. That would have derailed the whole thing as very few would have responded in the way we needed them to. I think we can repair the stuff you talk about but collapsing hospitals and unnecessary dead people are much more difficult to fix. So I call it a difficult but necessary decision.

All that said, I did indicate that their benefits have pretty much come to an end and we should probably seriously consider ending them.

Even if we do, however, we will still have a nasty pandemic on our hands. It is not over. The answers to these three questions will be very important to our progress and how we should proceed from here:

*1) Who are these fully vaccinated people in our hospitals and ICUs? 
2) What type of immunity does infection from Omicron actually provide?
3) What are the longer term effects of very frequent vaccination boosters?*

We can sit around and debate useless stuff about whether past decisions were good, bad or ugly but none of that will help very much in getting each of us out of this bloody mess, that we are all in together.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Even if we do, however, we will still have a nasty pandemic on our hands. It is not over. The answers to these three questions will be very important to our progress and how we should proceed from here:
> 
> *1) Who are these fully vaccinated people in our hospitals and ICUs?
> 2) What type of immunity does infection from Omicron actually provide?
> 3) What are the longer term effects of very frequent vaccination boosters?*


The only real question I have coming up is how good the new omicron booster will be.

As to your questions ...
1> Mainly older people which most likely includes other health issues.
2> Repeat case info should be available in a while but who knows what variant will be around then.
3> Unknown. Also what will be the longer term effects of different covid variants on infected people.


----------



## james4beach

There's now a lawsuit against the government regarding the vaccination requirement for air travel. The main applicant is the former Newfoundland Premier, who's the only surviving drafter and signatory of the 1982 Constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I agree with the argument being made: the vaccination mandate prevents approx 6 million Canadians from being able to travel, a severe violation of their rights under the Charter. And Canada is the only country in the developed world that has banned unvaccinated citizens from air travel.

Personally I think this restriction went too far and must to be removed. I hope the lawsuit succeeds, as being able to travel is an important fundamental right.









The Charter's only living signatory sues Canada over travel mandates | Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms


OTTAWA: The Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms today filed a lawsuit in Federal Court seeking to strike down the federal government’s mandatory Covid-19 vaccine requirements for air travellers. The court action is on behalf of several Canadians from across Canada whose Charter rights...




www.jccf.ca


----------



## james4beach

Deaths in Ontario due to Covid are likely being under-reported, because of PCR testing limitations. Despite this under-reporting, Ontario deaths have hit a new high for the whole pandemic.

I looked at some data (using Alberta because I have the data) to figure out who is dying.

Most deaths are people

over 70, when vaccinated
over 60, when unvaccinated

Breaking down the deaths by pre-existing medical conditions:

virtually no deaths of vaccinated (2 or 3 shots) _without_ pre-existing conditions ... only 2% of deaths
low deaths among unvaccinated _without_ pre-existing conditions ... 12% of deaths
*high deaths among vaccinated with pre-existing conditions ... 36% of deaths*
*high deaths among unvaccinated with pre-existing conditions ... 46% of deaths *

The two categories in bold account for the majority of deaths (in AB). Basically, people with pre-existing conditions: respiratory diseases, diabetes, stroke, dementia, cardiovascular disease, liver diseases, renal diseases, cancer and immuno-deficiency diseases.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> There's now a lawsuit against the government regarding the vaccination requirement for air travel. The main applicant is the former Newfoundland Premier, who's the only surviving drafter and signatory of the 1982 Constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
> 
> I agree with the argument being made: the vaccination mandate prevents approx 6 million Canadians from being able to travel, a severe violation of their rights under the Charter. And Canada is the only country in the developed world that has banned unvaccinated citizens from air travel.
> 
> Personally I think this restriction went too far and must to be removed. I hope the lawsuit succeeds, as being able to travel is an important fundamental right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Charter's only living signatory sues Canada over travel mandates | Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms
> 
> 
> OTTAWA: The Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms today filed a lawsuit in Federal Court seeking to strike down the federal government’s mandatory Covid-19 vaccine requirements for air travellers. The court action is on behalf of several Canadians from across Canada whose Charter rights...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.jccf.ca


While I agree the rule is stupid, not sure of the legal argument. Still have the right to travel by car and foot. Flying is a privilege. If the vaccines actually stopped the spread, this lawsuit would not even go past the conceptual stage.

I think at this point, all restrictions against movement and border testing should be removed. omicron is everywhere. I hear the argument about possibly preventing future variants from arriving here…..but COVID has shown there is no stopping it.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Flying is a privilege. If the vaccines actually stopped the spread, this lawsuit would not even go past the conceptual stage.


I think in a country this large, with long distance roads in dangerous winter conditions, flying is not a privilege: it's essential in many cases. If you live out west and have family out east, you must fly.

And yeah, the vaccines don't prevent people from being contagious. Vaccinated people certainly are spreading covid everywhere. Within my own circles I have heard countless examples of fully vaccinated people spreading covid at work and at home (parties and gatherings). My guess is that vaccinated people are driving the majority of the spread.

So there is no justification for making it mandatory on flights. IMO screening with rapid tests, during outbreaks when cases are elevated, would be a far better public policy ... it would limit the spread without infringing on citizen rights. Currently we all have a false sense of security about vaccinated people. We have plane fulls of vaccinated people, carrying covid, zipping between cities and spreading the disease all over the country.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Deaths in Ontario due to Covid are likely being under-reported, because of PCR testing limitations. Despite this under-reporting, Ontario deaths have hit a new high for the whole pandemic.
> 
> I looked at some data (using Alberta because I have the data) to figure out who is dying.
> 
> Most deaths are people
> 
> over 70, when vaccinated
> over 60, when unvaccinated
> 
> Breaking down the deaths by pre-existing medical conditions:
> 
> virtually no deaths of vaccinated (2 or 3 shots) _without_ pre-existing conditions ... only 2% of deaths
> low deaths among unvaccinated _without_ pre-existing conditions ... 12% of deaths
> *high deaths among vaccinated with pre-existing conditions ... 36% of deaths*
> *high deaths among unvaccinated with pre-existing conditions ... 46% of deaths *
> 
> The two categories in bold account for the majority of deaths (in AB). Basically, people with pre-existing conditions: respiratory diseases, diabetes, stroke, dementia, cardiovascular disease, liver diseases, renal diseases, cancer and immuno-deficiency diseases.


 current theory is that the deaths are Delta and lagging from infections in early Dec.









Ontario reports over 1,000 deaths from COVID-19 this month; top doc points to Delta


Ontario has reported the deaths of more than 1,000 people due to COVID-19 so far this month.




toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## OptsyEagle

The problem with all these restrictions and just as importantly, people's attitudes towards them, is that they have not properly evolved as the variants and vaccine efficacy evolved. Remember, when we were dealing with previous variants and the vaccination shots were fairly recent, the protection against infection was quite significant. I am not necessarily agreeing that the vaccine passports were going to use that and add a tremendous benefit to the pandemic fight but a reasonable argument for a benefit could easily be offered, at that time.

With the waning of immunity from the 2 shots of vaccine, more then 6 months ago, and now with the new Omicron variant, the ability of vaccine passports to provide any benefit to us at all pretty much went right down the toilet. In my opinion, the reason our citizens did not evolve with this new information, which many of them had and even understood, was they started pointing fingers towards the problems the unvaccinated were causing with our hospitals, which is still happening as I write, and they subconsciously felt the passports/mandate were some form of suitable punishment they deserved for that.

I don't spend too much time of pointing fingers in anger except to point at a real problem when I might have a real solution. Except for the benefit of convincing, not all the unvaccinated, but for me, the most important unvaccinated group, the age 50 or older, to get vaccinated, the passports served almost no other purpose today at all. I have never been in favor of employment vaccine mandates. That, IMO was a step too far, even back then, but I turned the blind eye on them as well, since the need for that specific group to vaccinate was so important for our society.

Anyway, I am in favour of dropping all passports and mandates. Mandates being both employment and travel... and definitely the Truckers. That was dumb.


----------



## OptsyEagle

The reason I talk about our citizens not evolving as opposed to our leaders not evolving, was to answer the question of why the passports/mandates exist in the first place. I don't know the exact answer but if I had to give my best opinion, it was not to stop the spread of the virus, even if an argument for that could and was made. On their best day the passports/mandates were going to do very little of that. No, the reason for the vaccine passports and mandates was because the majority of Canadians, who of course were vaccinated, demanded them.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> There's now a lawsuit against the government regarding the vaccination requirement for air travel. The main applicant is the former Newfoundland Premier, who's the only surviving drafter and signatory of the 1982 Constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
> 
> I agree with the argument being made: the vaccination mandate prevents approx 6 million Canadians from being able to travel, a severe violation of their rights under the Charter. And Canada is the only country in the developed world that has banned unvaccinated citizens from air travel.
> 
> Personally I think this restriction went too far and must to be removed. I hope the lawsuit succeeds, as being able to travel is an important fundamental right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Charter's only living signatory sues Canada over travel mandates | Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms
> 
> 
> OTTAWA: The Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms today filed a lawsuit in Federal Court seeking to strike down the federal government’s mandatory Covid-19 vaccine requirements for air travellers. The court action is on behalf of several Canadians from across Canada whose Charter rights...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.jccf.ca


 ... if this lawsuit on "travel", specifically on "air travel" is going to be successful as an infringement of rights under the Charter, I think the word "pandemic" needs to be "re-defined" and "successfully-so" first.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> The problem with all these restrictions and just as importantly, people's attitudes towards them, is that they have not properly evolved as the variants and vaccine efficacy evolved. Remember, when we were dealing with previous variants and the vaccination shots were fairly recent, the protection against infection was quite significant. I am not necessarily agreeing that the vaccine passports were going to use that and add a tremendous benefit to the pandemic fight but a reasonable argument for a benefit could easily be offered, at that time.
> 
> With the waning of immunity from the 2 shots of vaccine, more then 6 months ago, and now with the new Omicron variant, the ability of vaccine passports to provide any benefit to us at all pretty much went right down the toilet. In my opinion, the reason our citizens did not evolve with this new information, which many of them had and even understood, was they started pointing fingers towards the problems the unvaccinated were causing with our hospitals, which is still happening as I write, and they subconsciously felt the passports/mandate were some form of suitable punishment they deserved for that.
> 
> I don't spend too much time of pointing fingers in anger except to point at a real problem when I might have a real solution. Except for the benefit of convincing, not all the unvaccinated, but for me, the most important unvaccinated group, the age 50 or older, to get vaccinated, the passports served almost no other purpose today at all. I have never been in favor of employment vaccine mandates. That, IMO was a step too far, even back then, but I turned the blind eye on them as well, since the need for that specific group to vaccinate was so important for our society.
> 
> *Anyway, I am in favour of dropping all passports and mandates. Mandates being both employment and travel... and definitely the Truckers. That was dumb.*


 ... responding to the last part (bolded) only - might want to start with the lawyers first.


----------



## Beaver101

londoncalling said:


> BA.2 in Canada: Tam says officials are watching new Omicron subvariant ‘very closely’ (msn.com)


Haven't read your link but just saw this article touching on some of Omicron's descendents: At least 15 cases of Omicron subvariant BA.2 detected in Ontario



> _Published Friday, January 28, 2022 5:12PM EST
> Health officials say they've detected at least 15 cases of the COVID-19 Omicron subvariant BA.2 in Ontario.
> 
> Public Health Ontario released the latest data on Friday afternoon, saying that eight of the cases were identified between Jan. 1, 2021 and Dec. 11, 2021, while the seven remaining cases were found between Dec. 12, 2021 and Jan. 8, 2022.
> 
> BA.2 is a descendant of the highly transmissible Omicron variant and has been found in at least 40 countries so far. It was first detected in November last year.
> 
> While the World Health Organization (WHO) has not yet dubbed BA.2 a "variant of concern," it is tracking its spread.
> 
> The subvariant is widely considered stealthier than the original version because particular genetic traits make it somewhat harder to detect. Some scientists have expressed worry that it could also be more contagious.
> 
> *It is not yet clear whether it evades vaccines better or causes more severe disease.*
> _
> *The Omicron variant, B.1.1.529, has four sub-lineages: BA.1, BA.1.1, BA.2 and BA.3.
> 
> ...*


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> The only real question I have coming up is how good the new omicron booster will be.
> 
> As to your questions ...
> 1> Mainly older people which most likely includes other health issues.
> 2> Repeat case info should be available in a while but who knows what variant will be around then.
> 3> Unknown. Also what will be the longer term effects of different covid variants on infected people.


We still need a lot more info on those questions. Upthread we see that the majority of deaths for vaccinated people seem to be older age groups and those with comorbidities but there is still a pretty good chance a number of those deaths were from Delta. It seems curious to me why it is so hard to find this information these days. I am assuming, like the rest of us, that the fully vaccinated people in our hospitals and ICUs are probably older then 70 or have comorbidities, but I would like a little more info on this. It is very important for us to know.

I understand the time lag for info on what kind of protection a previous Omicron infection might offer. Since this is also critically important, when that information starts to materialized it would be helpful to have it posted by anyone who sees it first. It should be coming in soon.

The concerns I am starting to have with frequent boosters are probably unfounded but until I find out more I cannot say. The first curiosity I had was this waning immunity against infection. This is not unprecedented but what is interesting to me was the fact that we seem to get about 5 or 6 months protection against infection, after 2 shots. That appears to drop to 10 weeks for the wane to begin, after the 3rd shot, and I have heard the 4 shot might drop that down to only around 4 weeks. I am a curious guy. This kind of trend gets my spidey senses up. I would not mind knowing why this happens like it does and does anything else happen along with it.

I then remember, from that the Imperial College of London study, that was one of the first studies to give us some concrete data on the severity of Omicron, showed that the unvaccinated obtained around a 24% reduction in their chance of hospitalization compared to Delta. Those with 2 shots of mRNA vaccine obtained a 74% reduction in their chance of hospitalizations, BUT those who had 3 shots only obtained a 63% reduction in their chance of hospitalizations. There are many reasons for this and the AZ vaccine did seem to provide a better result for those with 3 shots but still, I wonder.

Lastly, we all have seen Damian's chart below that illustrates the rate of infection, using a "per hundred thousand" method to account for the difference in populations, between those vaccinated and those unvaccinated.










Now again, there can be a number of reasons for the weird result we see above, where those vaccinated with two doses of vaccine have a higher chance of infection then those will one dose and those with one dose have a higher chance of infection then those with no vaccine at all. With that said, maybe there are other reasons why we are seeing this. Is it possible that the more vaccine or virus like stuff we pump into our bodies starts to suppress the 1st response of our immune system, because it now believes, after more times it sees this virus and recovers from it, that the virus is no longer a threat and starts to create a critical, and possibly serious delay, in our response to it.

I know the vaccines are still protecting us from severe illness, but perhaps shooting up with them too frequently might start producing some damage to our immunes systems, that we really do not want. This is also critically important to know.


----------



## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> I think in a country this large, with long distance roads in dangerous winter conditions, flying is not a privilege: it's essential in many cases. If you live out west and have family out east, you must fly.
> 
> And yeah, the vaccines don't prevent people from being contagious. Vaccinated people certainly are spreading covid everywhere. Within my own circles I have heard countless examples of fully vaccinated people spreading covid at work and at home (parties and gatherings). My guess is that vaccinated people are driving the majority of the spread.
> 
> So there is no justification for making it mandatory on flights. IMO screening with rapid tests, during outbreaks when cases are elevated, would be a far better public policy ... it would limit the spread without infringing on citizen rights. Currently we all have a false sense of security about vaccinated people. We have plane fulls of vaccinated people, carrying covid, zipping between cities and spreading the disease all over the country.


Except flying is still a relatively new mode of transport and wasn't around with Confederation, so I wouldn't think it has much to go on. You can still take the ferry from Newfoundland. It just takes longer.

Rapid testing is about as useful as a pet rock. If it identifies someone with covid good. If not, person may still have it and pass screening to spread covid regardless. The thing about vaccination is that at this point we are pretty much accepting that everyone is going to get infected, something I said last year. Vaccination is mitigating the seriousness of the illness. Having unvaccinated people in high risk transmission environments just increases the possibility that someone will become seriously ill.


----------



## sags

There is some really weird data showing up that the scientists are trying to figure out.

The death count in Ontario is 1100 for January, which is a big increase, but many of the cases are from the Delta variant.

Does this mean the Delta variants is still circulating and lying in wait until the Omicron blows over. Will it reappear or be replaced by the new variant showing up now ? The new variant is spreading more rapidly than the Omicron and scientists don't know yet what the severity of symptoms will be.

I am thinking it is way to early to begin to celebrate and remove all restrictions. Much of the world is unvaccinated and most of the cases of the new variant are arriving in Canada from international travelers to Canada. That is a repeat of other outbreaks that started slowly and then exploded.

We may have to close borders again if the cases continue to climb.

There is also a rising rate of "re-infections" among people, which is concerning to scientists. There doesn't appear to be much natural immunity from infection.

Best we can do is rely on the experts and follow their advice including additional vaccinations in the future.

For two years Dr. Tam and others have worked tirelessly doing a tremendous job keeping Canadians as safe as possible.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> I know the vaccines are still protecting us from severe illness ...


And this, to me anyways, has always been a key point ... reducing severe outcomes. Are the current vaccines as good for Omicron as for Delta (and others) ... nope. Are they better than nothing, current data says yes.

Many thought Omicron was great, less severe so let everyone get it. Of course the magnitude of the infected count overwhelmed the serverity reduction, as some predicted.

Moving forward, the results from the new vaccines that target Omicron will be of interest. Personally I'm delaying any booster until I see that data.


----------



## zinfit

When people test positive doo they have anything that tells them whether it is the Delta or Omicron bug? I have my doubts.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> When people test positive doo they have anything that tells them whether it is the Delta or Omicron bug? *I have my doubts.*


 ... same here unless you're a bio/molecular scientist (virologist) studying the virus.


----------



## Beaver101

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/high-rate-covid-19-deaths-110000520.html

Sum up:



> ...
> 
> _More people have been admitted to hospital this wave across Ontario than before, said Razak, adding that data does show the unvaccinated have a greater risk of going to hospital.
> 
> "Right now, if you're vaccinated, the chance you'll end up in hospital is reduced by 80 per cent and chances you'll end up in ICU is reduced by 90 per cent," he said.
> 
> "There are also people who are vaccinated who are getting sick but often they have other underlying health issues that leave them more susceptible._"


----------



## cainvest

zinfit said:


> When people test positive doo they have anything that tells them whether it is the Delta or Omicron bug? I have my doubts.


AFAIK, only a fraction of positive samples get tested for variant classification. The amount will vary depending on the area and possibly more testing will be done if new VOCs are appearing. People do not get feedback on which one they caught.


----------



## sags

Jordan Peterson interviewed Peckford about his lawsuit on Youtube and it sounds pretty weak.

Basically, he is asking the court to rule a pandemic isn't a national emergency which would fall under Article 1 of the Charter of Rights. (18:34 in video)

If he were to win the case, *any and all* government mandated restrictions at any level would be wiped away and governments would be powerless to enact any protections for the people in all but invasion by a foreign country. The lawsuit isn't only about travel but all pandemic related restrictions, if it is ruled that a pandemic is not covered under Article 1 of the Charter.

I don't think the lawsuit will get much traction in the courts, but time will tell.


----------



## sags

Hospitalizations, ICU cases and deaths are at all time highs for the pandemic in Ontario.

The experts say it will be the middle of February before we see the number of cases dropping.

That is assuming the new Omicron 2 virus doesn't sweep through and re-infect people. It is more infectious than Omicron but the severity is unknown.

It also looks like a myth that Omicron symptoms are less severe or restricted to older folks with health issues.

Younger people are a significant part of the patients and although they may have fewer deaths, they are having more long term symptoms.

We aren't out of the woods yet. Every time we think it is over, the virus comes roaring back for another wave.


----------



## sags

Some are saying to remove restrictions and secure the vulnerable, but how does that work without the government providing financial and support to them ?

Our neighbor is 66 with health issues. He is fully vaccinated, but back working because they need the money.

Lots of working seniors and vulnerable people would be in the same position. They simply can't stay at home with no income.

Is the government going to provide another CERB benefit to people who have to quarantine themselves ?

Will all the political parties advocate for more government financial support while they advocate for removing restrictions ?

I am thinking likely not, which would defeat the whole idea of "protecting" the vulnerable while opening everything up.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Our neighbor is 66 with health issues. He is fully vaccinated, but back working because they need the money.
> Lots of working seniors and vulnerable people would be in the same position. They simply can't stay at home with no income.
> Is the government going to provide another CERB benefit to people who have to quarantine themselves ?


IMO, a 66 year old with health issues should *not* have to return to work, and should receive government money.

On the other hand, CERB should not be generously given out to anyone, otherwise you'll end up with far too many people in their 20s, 30s, 40s claiming it when they should be working instead.

Perhaps the provinces could set up a phone number where people dial in and speak to someone. The province would check the person's age (visible in their health registration) and take a verbal declaration if the person is saying they are at high risk. Then have them qualify for something like CERB. This would also let high risk people such as immune-compromised young people or cancer patients get on the roster as well.

That would be more selective than the initial CERB.

I really don't understand why Ontario is "opening up" as their numbers hit all time highs, the most deaths ever seen. And by opening up they could experience the same thing Europe saw, which is an *increase* in infections, as people stupidly mix and infect each other at restaurants, bars, gyms, etc. This wave is only going to subside in February if people remain careful. But now the province is encouraging people to relax their guard, so that could extend the wave further.


----------



## Plugging Along

zinfit said:


> When people test positive doo they have anything that tells them whether it is the Delta or Omicron bug? I have my doubts.


My understanding the PCR tests for the general COVID sequence that all variants have. For people who have travelled outside of Canada and test positive, they will usually do more testing for specific variants, assuming you tell them when you fill out the survey. They is also additional 'random' sample testing, but there are some criteria they look for. Right now, we have been told, if you have COVID, assume it Omicron as it was over 95% of the samples a few weeks ago. One is also not informed unless they need further information. 

Rapid tests do not test different variants.


----------



## sags

Some Provinces don't conduct post mortem testing, so the public numbers on deaths from covid could be 7 times higher than reported.

_Moriarty was featured in a recent Saskatoon StarPhoenix story, in which she said the number of Saskatchewan deaths could be* seven times higher *than the provincial total of 977. _

Some Provincial governments don't want to know the full numbers, because it contradicts their political ideology.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/sask-covid-deaths-uoft-1.6326802



The research study was peer reviewed before being published.



https://rsc-src.ca/sites/default/files/EM%20PB_EN.pdf


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Some Provinces don't conduct post mortem testing, so the public numbers on deaths from covid could be 7 times higher than reported.


I read another article (and linked it earlier in this thread) that covid deaths are also under-reported in Ontario. It's really because PCR tests have been rationed and some patients aren't even confirmed to be Covid positive, and then they die.

So I think Covid deaths are under-reported across Canada. We're in the most serious, more fatal wave ever seen in the pandemic so far. It's absolutely a public health emergency in every way imaginable.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Some Provinces don't conduct post mortem testing, so the public numbers on deaths from covid could be 7 times higher than reported.
> 
> _Moriarty was featured in a recent Saskatoon StarPhoenix story, in which she said the number of Saskatchewan deaths could be* seven times higher *than the provincial total of 977. _
> 
> Some Provincial governments don't want to know the full numbers, because it contradicts their political ideology.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/sask-covid-deaths-uoft-1.6326802
> 
> 
> 
> The research study was peer reviewed before being published.
> 
> 
> 
> https://rsc-src.ca/sites/default/files/EM%20PB_EN.pdf


 ... if Moe thinks Ms. Moriarty is dispensing "misinformation" at all, let alone labelling it as "egregarious", then he should have his own provincial researchers come up with the number to refute Ms. Moriarty's (from UofT=Ontario) numbers/research.

Just by the simple numbers in the article:



> ... _According to Statistics Canada, there were 10,219 deaths in 2020 — 663 more than in 2019.
> 
> The 10-year average for deaths in Saskatchewan is 9,390. The province officially reported 153 COVID-19 deaths in 2020._


 ... any dummy would have a hard time believing there were only "153" deaths from Covid. Was Moe living under a rock that time? If he continues with his rhetorics (aka false claims) of others (particularly independent experts) that don't follow his political ideologies aka BS, he can kiss good-bye on getting any/further help for his province from Ontario.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I read another article (and linked it earlier in this thread) that covid deaths are also under-reported in Ontario. It's really because PCR tests have been rationed and some patients aren't even confirmed to be Covid positive, and then they die.
> 
> So I think Covid deaths are under-reported across Canada. We're in the most serious, more fatal wave ever seen in the pandemic so far. It's absolutely a public health emergency in every way imaginable.
> 
> View attachment 22747


 ... politicians (plus those who like to engage in that field) like to rosy-tint everything as a display of competence.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Jordan Peterson interviewed Peckford about his lawsuit on Youtube and it sounds pretty weak.
> 
> Basically, he is asking the court to rule a pandemic isn't a national emergency which would fall under Article 1 of the Charter of Rights. (18:34 in video)
> 
> If he were to win the case, *any and all* government mandated restrictions at any level would be wiped away and governments would be powerless to enact any protections for the people in all but invasion by a foreign country. The lawsuit isn't only about travel but all pandemic related restrictions, if it is ruled that a pandemic is not covered under Article 1 of the Charter.
> 
> I don't think the lawsuit will get much traction in the courts, but time will tell.


 ... sorry I merely see another attention-seeker. ... hopefully this lawsuit ain't funded by you and me. Is it?


----------



## Money172375

The experts, and I think the general public, are supporting Ontario’s easing tomorrow. We’re basically following the lead of Europe and much of the US. In addition due to all businesses opening up to some degree, the task of contact tracing has been removed.









Full list of restrictions lifting in Ontario today


At 12:01 a.m. on Monday, Ontario will enter the first step of its three-step reopening plan, meaning that a number of restrictions imposed earlier this month in an attempt to curb transmission of the Omicron variant will lift.




toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> The experts, and I think the general public, are supporting Ontario’s easing tomorrow. We’re basically following the lead of Europe and much of the US. In addition due to all businesses opening up to some degree, the task of contact tracing has been removed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Full list of restrictions lifting in Ontario today
> 
> 
> At 12:01 a.m. on Monday, Ontario will enter the first step of its three-step reopening plan, meaning that a number of restrictions imposed earlier this month in an attempt to curb transmission of the Omicron variant will lift.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.ctvnews.ca


 ... of course the "experts" would if they devised the plan.

As for the "general" public, they're "tired" with more or less the same so they welcome anything.

As for "contact tracing" being "now removed", what's that? I haven't seen it happening since the last wave whenever that was. Honestly, all the eating establishments I have been (mainly take-out) have a clipboard with some gibberish likely phoney names and numbers written on there with dates of 2020/2021 as their "contact" tracing. The establishment's door has a sign saying "vax certificate/proof" needed for dine-in but I have yet to observe one actually being "scanned" or produced ... this was the previous phase, not the current. Maybe this time it's better since there're more vaxxed people?

I think the WAHrs might be disappointed if we open too quickly ... sigh, can't please everyone.


----------



## sags

Some experts are in favor of relaxing some restrictions, but the recommendations usually come with caveats that are seldom put into place.

We are in an "open up and see what happens mode."

I hope it works out, but already there are problems with kids getting sent home from school and family members not knowing what to do.....quarantine, go to work, tell everybody......??

One of my son's kids came into "contact" with another kid that tested positive, so he told his work and got sent home for 5 unpaid days. His partner works in daycare and had to stay home for 5 unpaid days as well. The crew he worked with were sent home for 5 unpaid days also.

None of them became infected and my son says that next time he simply won't tell the employer. None of them will tell the employers anymore.

I think that will become a commonplace response, if it isn't already.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> The experts, and I think the general public, are supporting Ontario’s easing tomorrow. We’re basically following the lead of Europe and much of the US


Both Europe and US have done worse than us through this pandemic, with higher per capita death rates and worse outbreaks. They certainly are not a model to look up to.

Aren't our hospitals under intense stress? Aren't healthcare workers completely worn out, and we've having to ration healthcare? Why does it make sense to relax restrictions when the hospitals can barely handle the current load?

I'm open minded though, just tell me what I'm missing. Are the Ontario hospitals not actually under intense load? Perhaps the doctors are saying that everything is OK at the hospitals again. Have they resumed doing things like elective surgeries, and cancer treatments and surgeries?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

My grandma got covid for the second time, first time was in April last year. 
She still doesn’t want to get vaccinated.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Sask. Premier says province will end proof of vaccine policy in 'not-too-distant future'*
In Moe's statement on Saturday, the premier voiced his support for the rallies' call to end the federal mandates for unvaccinated truckers.
"Vaccination is not reducing transmission," said Moe.
"An unvaccinated trucker does not pose any greater risk of transmission than a vaccinated trucker."


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/scott-moe-proof-of-vaccination-twitter-1.6332514


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> IMO, a 66 year old with health issues should *not* have to return to work, and should receive government money.


Not working at 66 is called retirement. If you're 66 and don't want to work then tap into your investments and start collecting CPP to go with the OAS you'd already be getting.


----------



## james4beach

HappilyRetired said:


> Not working at 66 is called retirement. If you're 66 and don't want to work then tap into your investments and start collecting CPP to go with the OAS you'd already be getting.


Not everyone is rich. Many people still have to work at age 66.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Not everyone is rich. Many people still have to work at age 66.


CPP and OAS will pay about $1500 a month, $3000 for a couple. It's enough to get by if you're frugal. If they saved then they'll have some extra on top of that. If they didn't save that's their issue to deal with.

I made less than most and am living comfortably on a pension that's well under $3000 a month. If I can do it, someone else can to.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Hospitalizations have increased by nine since Saturday. Bringing the total to 349.
Of the 349 patients, 110, or *31.5 per cent, were not fully vaccinated*.


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> Hospitalizations have increased by nine since Saturday. Bringing the total to 349.
> Of the 349 patients, 110, or *31.5 per cent, were not fully vaccinated*.


Yeah that's consistent with BC as well, where about 25% to 30% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> Yeah that's consistent with BC as well, where about 25% to 30% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated.


This translates into 70% of fully vaccinated hospitalized. I remember Pfizer and Moderna promised 99% protection from hospitalization. Truth and profits are incompatible.


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> This translates into 70% of fully vaccinated hospitalized. I remember Pfizer and Moderna promised 99% protection from hospitalization. Truth and profits are incompatible.


Those numbers have to be compared to the population of each group. For example, people age 50-59 in BC. The hospitalization rate per one million people, is 9 for vaccinated people and 42 for unvaccinated. That shows what the vaccine is doing. It reduces this age group's hospitalization rate by a factor of more than 4X

And this benefit is seen at every age. For people age 18-29, unvaccinated people are hospitalized at a rate of 7X those who are vaccinated. There's no question at all that vaccinated people are far less likely to end up in hospital.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

james4beach said:


> Those numbers have to be compared to the population of each group.


It doesn’t matter. Big pharma promised super duper vaccines. 
_Vaccine was 100% effective in preventing severe disease as defined by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control
Vaccine was 100% effective in preventing COVID-19 cases in South Africa
Vaccine effectiveness was at least 97% against symptomatic COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations, severe and critical hospitalizations, and deaths. Furthermore, the analysis found a vaccine effectiveness of 94% against asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections. For all outcomes, vaccine effectiveness was measured from two weeks after the second dose.
from Pfizer.com _


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Both Europe and US have done worse than us through this pandemic, with higher per capita death rates and worse outbreaks. They certainly are not a model to look up to.
> 
> Aren't our hospitals under intense stress? Aren't healthcare workers completely worn out, and we've having to ration healthcare? Why does it make sense to relax restrictions when the hospitals can barely handle the current load?
> 
> I'm open minded though, just tell me what I'm missing. Are the Ontario hospitals not actually under intense load? Perhaps the doctors are saying that everything is OK at the hospitals again. Have they resumed doing things like elective surgeries, and cancer treatments and surgeries?


The hospitals are currently under stress in Ontario. Consensus seems to be its mostly driven by severe delta outcomes originating from December. The health officials seems to be believe case loads have peaked and so hospitalizations should follow suit. I‘ve been seeing more and more reports of wastewater studies that measure COVID. Another sign that cases are decreasing. While ICU admissions we’re way up, I don’t think they reached critical peaks.
both my parents have cancer. Not undergoing treatments per se at the moment, but both had routine semi-annual scans this month at Ontario hospitals. 

to clarify, the higher risk settings opening today in Ontario are subject to a 50% capacity limit or 500 people, whichever is less.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ... of course the "experts" would if they devised the plan.
> 
> As for the "general" public, they're "tired" with more or less the same so they welcome anything.
> 
> As for "contact tracing" being "now removed", what's that? I haven't seen it happening since the last wave whenever that was. Honestly, all the eating establishments I have been (mainly take-out) have a clipboard with some gibberish likely phoney names and numbers written on there with dates of 2020/2021 as their "contact" tracing. The establishment's door has a sign saying "vax certificate/proof" needed for dine-in but I have yet to observe one actually being "scanned" or produced ... this was the previous phase, not the current. Maybe this time it's better since there're more vaxxed people?
> 
> I think the WAHrs might be disappointed if we open too quickly ... sigh, can't please everyone.


I’ve been to restaurants (when they were open) and was asked to provide vax proof and contact information each time. The only time I wasn’t was when a small group of friends and I asked a small restaurant to open just for us one evening. they normally close around 4pm as they are a lunch time place for local industrial workers. I knew everyone was vaxxed and declared such, but they never verified.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> I’ve been to restaurants (when they were open) and was asked to provide vax proof and contact information each time.


 ... that's what those establishments are supposed to do according to the bylaws (current). But then public health here in Toronto has already stated they no longer do contact tracing for the public, will only do in high risk settings eg. LTCs and hospitals. I'm not sure about it being done in schools even. Anyhow, they (TPH) have contact tracing responsibility will be left to the "individual" entity so you can see how much of that is being done. So your area is still following your local bylaws which is good. But realistically, what is contact tracing really going to do, if helps at all at this point when it's assumed "everyone is infected, whatever version".



> The only time I wasn’t was when a small group of friends and I asked a small restaurant to open just for us one evening. they normally close around 4pm as they are a lunch time place for local industrial workers. I knew everyone was vaxxed and declared such, but they never verified.


 ... that eatery is very generous in opening up just for your group. I presumed they know you quite (honesty, vax status et al) well and hope you gave them a big fat tip for that as much as they needed your business.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> This translates into 70% of fully vaccinated hospitalized. I remember Pfizer and Moderna promised 99% protection from hospitalization. Truth and profits are incompatible.


 ... yeah, Pfizer and Moderna promised you the moon too by having to sign the waiver to get vaxxed. LMAO.


----------



## sags

A study out of Denmark and preliminary findings in the UK show that Omicron 2 is more infectious than the original and is better at evading vaccines.

If the variant spreads globally as it has in Denmark, we will have higher infections,hospitalizations, ICU cases, and deaths.

This is really bad news for anyone who is not vaccinated.

What is "the plan" when this variant starts circulating widely in Canada, like the previous variants did ?









Omicron subvariant BA.2 more infectious than 'original,' Danish study finds


COPENHAGEN — The BA.2 subvariant of the Omicron coronavirus variant, which has quickly taken over in Denmark, is more transmissible than the more common BA.1…




torontosun.com


----------



## damian13ster

How is vaccines being even less effective against new version of omicron a bad news for unvaccinated?


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> How is vaccines being even less effective against new version of omicron a bad news for unvaccinated?


 ... huh??? You might want to first start with the basic question - what does a vaccine mean to an unvaccinated person?


----------



## MK7GTI

For all the Joe Rogan haters on this forum.


----------



## zinfit

Ukrainiandude said:


> Hospitalizations have increased by nine since Saturday. Bringing the total to 349.
> Of the 349 patients, 110, or *31.5 per cent, were not fully vaccinated*.


your point? 12% of the population over the age of 5 are unvaccinated and they are causing 31% of the hospitalizations and 80% of the ICUs. 1 +1 =2


----------



## Beaver101

MK7GTI said:


> For all the Joe Rogan haters on this forum.


 ... who is this guy? And why would we=those who don't know who he is (nor care for) want to hate him other than the poster is making an attempt to sow division and hate on this forum. 

I get it now - this is a form of attention-seeking, the era of misinformation attempts plus trying to be an influencer on social media ... LMAO.


----------



## Beaver101

Fifteen per cent of all Toronto public school staff and students were absent on Friday, Jan. 28

I don't understand the relevance or purpose of reporting all these mish-mash percentages of absences from schools (Toronto public & Catholic) other than to keep a stats-loving person busy. Are property owners getting a refund on their property tax for these absences whilst the schools aren't in use? Sheesh.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> Fifteen per cent of all Toronto public school staff and students were absent on Friday, Jan. 28
> 
> I don't understand the relevance or purpose of reporting all these mish-mash percentages of absences from schools (Toronto public & Catholic) other than to keep a stats-loving person busy. Are property owners getting a refund on their property tax for these absences whilst the schools aren't in use? Sheesh.


I think parents are interested. If absences are above 30%, it‘s likely indicating COVID cases are high in that jurisdiction. Official case counts mean almost nothing now due to the lack of testing. If you’re a parent of an high risk child or if the child lives with high risk family, I think this is relevant data to share.


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> Fifteen per cent of all Toronto public school staff and students were absent on Friday, Jan. 28
> 
> I don't understand the relevance or purpose of reporting all these mish-mash percentages of absences from schools (Toronto public & Catholic) other than to keep a stats-loving person busy. Are property owners getting a refund on their property tax for these absences whilst the schools aren't in use? Sheesh.


It's an important metric for parents with kids in school. At 30% absentee (in my province 25%), it poses significant challenges for kids to be able to learn and teachers to be able to teach. This metric is monitored because it may trigger a threshold for either a school or a whole board to shut down. It's actually been around for many years. The absentee rate isn't just for COVID, it's could be other illness, or non medical reasons for such a large %. School have always tracked these rates, it's just they haven't been reported in the past. 

In the case of COVID, my province has been reporting absentee since the second week back after the winter break as a request from many parents, so they can make decisions on what they do with their kids. It also serves as a good indicator to get ready if things start to climb, so you don't find out the day of that they are shutting down the school. 

Just like any other stat, it's meaningless for those it doesn't apply to, but helpful for those who know how interpret and apply to their scenarios.


----------



## MrMatt

My kids had 50% and 65% attendance in their class, since school started 2 weeks ago about 1/4-1/3 of the class has been out sick.

The schools are barely functional.

That being said, my one son was a bit upset he couldn't just play videogames all day.
My other son was thrilled to get out of the house.


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> It's an important metric for parents with kids in school. At 30% absentee (in my province 25%), it poses significant challenges for kids to be able to learn and teachers to be able to teach. This metric is monitored because it may trigger a threshold for either a school or a whole board to shut down. It's actually been around for many years. The absentee rate isn't just for COVID, it's could be other illness, or non medical reasons for such a large %. School have always tracked these rates, it's just they haven't been reported in the past.


 - see below. Besides, how "up-to-date" are these stats for parents to react fast enough?



> In the case of COVID, my province has been reporting absentee since the second week back after the winter break as a request from many parents, so they can make decisions on what they do with their kids. It also serves as a good indicator to get ready if things start to climb, so you don't find out the day of that they are shutting down the school.


 ... here in Ontario, the school district has already indicated it's a given a school will shut down when there're no running buses due to bad weather. Nothing about Covid cases until I guess they decided this "30% threshold" and even then it's we'll wait and see. Back and forth, forth and back - I think as a parent, I would be driven up the wall with this kind of ping-pong opening and closing. How can a kid "really learn" under this kind of (distracting) environment?



> Just like any other stat, it's meaningless for those it doesn't apply to, but helpful for those who know how interpret and apply to their scenarios.


 ...let's start with this comment first. I get parents need to know such stats and how to apply them to their scenarios but publication on a major news network for the "entire" public? I mean don't the school district have a "central network" for parents to tap in to find out what % or whatever news is happening in their own school backyard? I don't think it's very useful to using a major news network in lieu of that ... it's like sending an amber alert to an entire world find a missing child. This I find useful as everyone have eyes as ironic as it may sound. But not for Covid-case status. I also hear there're cellphone users (sans moi) who are already not bothering with it.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> I think parents are interested. If absences are above 30%, it‘s likely indicating COVID cases are high in that jurisdiction.


 ... and so?


> Official case counts mean almost nothing now due to the lack of testing.


 ... figures.


> If you’re a parent of an high risk child or if the child lives with high risk family, I think this is relevant data to share.


 ...only relevant if there's a declaration of the "endemic" ending. 

I think if you're a parent of a "high-risk" child, it's no brainer that the kid should be schooled at home in the first place - for this period of time. 

As for a child living with a high risk family (such as ER doctors), further thoughts/arrangements would be required as I'm not sure first and foremost, I would want to infect my family, let alone sending my sick kid over to someone else's place (and vice-versa).


----------



## MrMatt

MK7GTI said:


> For all the Joe Rogan haters on this forum.


The people who don't like Joe won't listen to his 2 minute explanation, let alone the 2,3,4 hour conversations.

I don't actually listen to Joe Rogan, but there is something to be said for mutli hour interviews
Also Joe Rogan is a great interviewer, because he's somewhat thoughtful and a tremendously good entertainer. 

FYI I think there is a lot of value in letting people put our their position, over an extended period of time. That's why I listen to podcases where they can do that.

I think it was great that Bernie Sanders had a 1 hour interview on Joe Rogan. As much as many on the right would like to demonize him, he made a number of good points.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

zinfit said:


> your point? 12% of the population over the age of 5 are unvaccinated and they are causing 31% of the hospitalizations and 80% of the ICUs. 1 +1 =2


This translates into 70% of fully vaccinated hospitalized. I remember Pfizer and Moderna promised 99% protection from hospitalization. Truth and profits are incompatible.
Big pharma promised super duper vaccines. 
_Vaccine was 100% effective in preventing severe disease as defined by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control
Vaccine was 100% effective in preventing COVID-19 cases in South Africa
Vaccine effectiveness was at least 97% against symptomatic COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations, severe and critical hospitalizations, and deaths. Furthermore, the analysis found a vaccine effectiveness of 94% against asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections. For all outcomes, vaccine effectiveness was measured from two weeks after the second dose.
from Pfizer.com_


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> - see below. Besides, how "up-to-date" are these stats for parents to react fast enough?


I believe my school board updates on a daily basis (all schools track this anyways) and it gets reported to a central system. It's only be recent where they have the individual school absentees, but I think it gets consolidated and reported for the following date. That stat is fast enough for me as a a parent. I usually only check about once a week just to see how the trends are going, a little more if I hear that was a big event something that might trigger high numbers really quickly. 



> ... here in Ontario, the school district has already indicated it's a given a school will shut down when there're no running buses due to bad weather. Nothing about Covid cases until I guess they decided this "30% threshold" and even then it's we'll wait and see. Back and forth, forth and back - I think as a parent, I would be driven up the wall with this kind of ping-pong opening and closing. How can a kid "really learn" under this kind of (distracting) environment?


In my province, before school started back, media and the board warned parents to be prepared to send the kids on line at any time, and also there was a bus driver shortage, so have back up plans in case your kids' bus doesn't show up. We are so used to bad weather here, they don't even give warnings, and we know that that is something we always have to be prepared. 

You are so right, the ping-pong environment is horrible, having to isolate with any symptoms is horrible. Our family all got hit with COVID a few days before school returned. The government had already said in anticipation of high absentee rates, teachers would put all missed materials on line so the students could still keep up while isolating. My oldest was really sick, but managed to all the work that was on line. The teachers had to double up assignments because the government extended to break and instead of 2,5 weeks for final prep, they were given 7 days. My kid missed all 7 days. On her first day back, had a final IB math exam. She did all of the work on line that was posted. I had her go in earlier to touch base with the teacher, and he realized 25 minutes before he forgot post the review sheets they did in class. He said she could do all her review right there, and write final with her classmates. That didn't go well. That same day she found out that she missed her final IB exam. They told her she could come in on the Monday to write (it was Thursday) and she did. After she finished her exam, her other teacher realized that my kid didn't write another exam they gave in class based on a class presentation. The teacher forgot to upload that, so gave her 20 minutes in between her final, and now a 'pop' test to study materials that they forgot to load. Then the IB business teacher also had to do 3 weeks of assignments in the 7 days and gave her Thursday to Monday to do it, but forgot to post the information. He gave her a one day extension and offer to let her withdraw the mark for the unit, it wouldn't affect grades, but she wouldn't get full credit for the class. This sounded fine, until I quickly did some research and realized it would make the class ineligible to be used for scholarships. 

So yeah, this whole covid thing has been a [email protected] show for learners. Since Dec 17, my kid went to school for 1 day, where she had a final exam, another 1/2 day to write her make exams, and today Feb 1 is her first day in class as the start of 2nd semester. I think she forget that she was a high school student . This was more of vent. 



> ...let's start with this comment first. I get parents need to know such stats and how to apply them to their scenarios but publication on a major news network for the "entire" public? I mean don't the school district have a "central network" for parents to tap in to find out what % or whatever news is happening in their own school backyard? I don't think it's very useful to using a major news network in lieu of that ... it's like sending an amber alert to an entire world find a missing child. This I find useful as everyone have eyes as ironic as it may sound. But not for Covid-case status. I also hear there're cellphone users (sans moi) who are already not bothering with it.


I don't know how often your media posts, I still found it helpful. I was even aware the stat existed until the first week when our media mention absentee rates. At that time, it lead me to research where this data would be published. Unlike an amber alert which comes on everyone's devices, with media they post what ever they think is news, it's up to us as the consumer to decided what is relevant. I use the news just a piece to further research. I would say 90% of the news, I don't know why they are reporting it as news, but some one seems to care. On a side note, I hear people complaining about amber alert notifications all the time (we don't get them very often). The other night, there was on of a child gone missing in the day. As a part of that amber alert, he was found really quickly. I was no where that I could help at the time, so irrelevant to me, but things like this don't bother me. I personally would rather get lots of random information and filter it in terms of relevance myself.


----------



## m3s

MrMatt said:


> The people who don't like Joe won't listen to his 2 minute explanation, let alone the 2,3,4 hour conversations.
> 
> I don't actually listen to Joe Rogan, but there is something to be said for mutli hour interviews
> Also Joe Rogan is a great interviewer, because he's somewhat thoughtful and a tremendously good entertainer.
> 
> FYI I think there is a lot of value in letting people put our their position, over an extended period of time. That's why I listen to podcases where they can do that.
> 
> I think it was great that Bernie Sanders had a 1 hour interview on Joe Rogan. As much as many on the right would like to demonize him, he made a number of good points.


Crazy that Joe Rogan apparently has a bigger audience than CNN and FOX news combined now. Those mediums are dead for anyone with a brain cell capable of the slightest bit of critical thought. You'd have to be in a nursing home or a cave to not know who Joe Rogan is now

We used to listen to him on night shifts before he switched to be Spotify exclusive and he's losing others. Now we listen to Lex Friedman and he's even better. Not as entertaining but more in depth technical discussions. He had the same COVID discussions and nobody has tried to cancel him

The sensationalist boomer media will hopefully fade away with its aging audience


----------



## MK7GTI

m3s said:


> Crazy that Joe Rogan apparently has a bigger audience than CNN and FOX news combined now. Those mediums are dead for anyone with a brain cell capable of the slightest bit of critical thought. You'd have to be in a nursing home or a cave to not know who Joe Rogan is now
> 
> We used to listen to him on night shifts before he switched to be Spotify exclusive and he's losing others. Now we listen to Lex Friedman and he's even better. Not as entertaining but more in depth technical discussions. He had the same COVID discussions and nobody has tried to cancel him
> 
> The sensationalist boomer media will hopefully fade away with its aging audience











Joe Rogan seemingly has millions more listeners than Tucker Carlson, Fox News and CNN


Joe Rogan has emerged as one of the most influential figures in the media, with his podcast surpassing the viewership statistics of the likes of Tucker Carlson Tonight, Fox News and CNN.




www.sportskeeda.com





Shows you just how far behind legacy media is at this point.


----------



## Beaver101

m3s said:


> Crazy that Joe Rogan apparently has a bigger audience than CNN and FOX news combined now. Those mediums are dead for anyone with a brain cell capable of the slightest bit of critical thought. You'd have to be in a nursing home or a cave to not know who Joe Rogan is now
> 
> We used to listen to him on night shifts before he switched to be Spotify exclusive and he's losing others. Now we listen to Lex Friedman and he's even better. Not as entertaining but more in depth technical discussions. He had the same COVID discussions and nobody has tried to cancel him
> 
> The sensationalist boomer media will hopefully fade away with its aging audience


 ... yep, including Joe Blow ... Joe What? Oh, the Roggan horn. Whatever.


----------



## m3s

MK7GTI said:


> Shows you just how far behind legacy media is at this point.


That article is such a perfect example

I got that information from an Anthony Pompliano tweet (I listen to Better Business Show during my commutes) CNN will basically write an article on something that was conveyed better in a tweet

The legacy media is basically clickbait for boomers at this point


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> I believe my school board updates on a daily basis (all schools track this anyways) and it gets reported to a central system. It's only be recent where they have the individual school absentees, but I think it gets consolidated and reported for the following date. That stat is fast enough for me as a a parent. I usually only check about once a week just to see how the trends are going, a little more if I hear that was a big event something that might trigger high numbers really quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> In my province, before school started back, media and the board warned parents to be prepared to send the kids on line at any time, and also there was a bus driver shortage, so have back up plans in case your kids' bus doesn't show up. We are so used to bad weather here, they don't even give warnings, and we know that that is something we always have to be prepared.
> 
> You are so right, the ping-pong environment is horrible, having to isolate with any symptoms is horrible. Our family all got hit with COVID a few days before school returned. The government had already said in anticipation of high absentee rates, teachers would put all missed materials on line so the students could still keep up while isolating. My oldest was really sick, but managed to all the work that was on line. The teachers had to double up assignments because the government extended to break and instead of 2,5 weeks for final prep, they were given 7 days. My kid missed all 7 days. On her first day back, had a final IB math exam. She did all of the work on line that was posted. I had her go in earlier to touch base with the teacher, and he realized 25 minutes before he forgot post the review sheets they did in class. He said she could do all her review right there, and write final with her classmates. That didn't go well. That same day she found out that she missed her final IB exam. They told her she could come in on the Monday to write (it was Thursday) and she did. After she finished her exam, her other teacher realized that my kid didn't write another exam they gave in class based on a class presentation. The teacher forgot to upload that, so gave her 20 minutes in between her final, and now a 'pop' test to study materials that they forgot to load. Then the IB business teacher also had to do 3 weeks of assignments in the 7 days and gave her Thursday to Monday to do it, but forgot to post the information. He gave her a one day extension and offer to let her withdraw the mark for the unit, it wouldn't affect grades, but she wouldn't get full credit for the class. This sounded fine, until I quickly did some research and realized it would make the class ineligible to be used for scholarships.
> 
> So yeah, this whole covid thing has been a [email protected] show for learners. Since Dec 17, my kid went to school for 1 day, where she had a final exam, another 1/2 day to write her make exams, and today Feb 1 is her first day in class as the start of 2nd semester. I think she forget that she was a high school student . This was more of vent.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how often your media posts, I still found it helpful. I was even aware the stat existed until the first week when our media mention absentee rates. At that time, it lead me to research where this data would be published. Unlike an amber alert which comes on everyone's devices, with media they post what ever they think is news, it's up to us as the consumer to decided what is relevant. I use the news just a piece to further research. I would say 90% of the news, I don't know why they are reporting it as news, but some one seems to care. On a side note, I hear people complaining about amber alert notifications all the time (we don't get them very often). The other night, there was on of a child gone missing in the day. As a part of that amber alert, he was found really quickly. I was no where that I could help at the time, so irrelevant to me, but things like this don't bother me. I personally would rather get lots of random information and filter it in terms of relevance myself.


 ... I feel for you. What a nightmare. I don't know why all those involved - after some 2 + years, wave after wave, the administrators, the educators, the teachers haven't come up with a "concrete" plan. They can use a simple flow-chart to start with. Seems like they're still drafting up that plan or the "playing by the ear" technique. Sheesh.

Btw, no different from Ontario - just listening to Ed Minister Leccee with his initial flippy floppy doo-dumb and now no-show hiding somewhere says it all.


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> This translates into 70% of fully vaccinated hospitalized. I remember Pfizer and Moderna promised 99% protection from hospitalization. Truth and profits are incompatible.
> Big pharma promised super duper vaccines.
> _Vaccine was 100% effective in preventing severe disease as defined by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control
> Vaccine was 100% effective in preventing COVID-19 cases in South Africa
> Vaccine effectiveness was at least 97% against symptomatic COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations, severe and critical hospitalizations, and deaths. Furthermore, the analysis found a vaccine effectiveness of 94% against asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections. For all outcomes, vaccine effectiveness was measured from two weeks after the second dose.
> from Pfizer.com_


According to the Saskatchewan tracker, there are currently 118,606 active cases of covid-19 in the province. Of those, 363 are hospitalized. That works out to 0.3%. OK, so it's not 100% effective in preventing severe disease, but it's 99.7% effective. And that's after several mutations of the virus.

Not to mention, asymptomatic cases, cases where they rapid tested at home and didn't report to public health authorities, and cases where they avoided getting the virus at all thanks to the vaccine are excluded from the above analysis. So it's probably more than 99.7% effective.

I see you left out part of the Pfizer.com information:

_Vaccine was 100% effective in preventing severe disease as defined by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and 95.3% effective in preventing severe disease as defined by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration_
You can't forget that the results you're quoting are not against the Omicron variant, as well.


----------



## damian13ster

That is definitely not how you measure effectiveness


----------



## zinfit

Spudd said:


> According to the Saskatchewan tracker, there are currently 118,606 active cases of covid-19 in the province. Of those, 363 are hospitalized. That works out to 0.3%. OK, so it's not 100% effective in preventing severe disease, but it's 99.7% effective. And that's after several mutations of the virus.
> 
> Not to mention, asymptomatic cases, cases where they rapid tested at home and didn't report to public health authorities, and cases where they avoided getting the virus at all thanks to the vaccine are excluded from the above analysis. So it's probably more than 99.7% effective.
> 
> I see you left out part of the Pfizer.com information:
> 
> _Vaccine was 100% effective in preventing severe disease as defined by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and 95.3% effective in preventing severe disease as defined by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration_
> You can't forget that the results you're quoting are not against the Omicron variant, as well.


A famous person once said the key to happiness is avoiding certain people. Those people don't like facts and they still believe the world is flat.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> A famous person once said the key to happiness is avoiding certain people. Those people don't like facts and they still believe the world is flat.


There are also some well-meaning people who simply don't understand what they read, and establish their 'facts' based on false information. This is prime example for it.

just to explain why this is wrong I will use an analogy.

When you have a cancer with 40% survival rate, and you develop a drug that increases the survival rate to 40.4%, do you say the drug is 1% effective (1% increase in survival rate) or 59.6% effective?


----------



## Money172375

Ontario estimates that up to 1 in 4 residents got COVID during the omicron wave.









As many as 4M Ontarians caught COVID-19 in the Omicron wave, science table estimates


Speeding the pace of vaccinations and boosters will help keep hospitalizations down, the science table says.




www.thestar.com





based on wastewater studies, estimate the leak was 3 weeks ago.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> There are also some well-meaning people who simply don't understand what they read, and establish their 'facts' based on false information. This is prime example for it.
> 
> just to explain why this is wrong I will use an analogy.
> 
> When you have a cancer with 40% survival rate, and you develop a drug that increases the survival rate to 40.4%, do you say the drug is 1% effective (1% increase in survival rate) or 59.6% effective?


 ...bad analogy with a mere 1% increase in survival rate plus 59.6% effectiveness in the drug, seriously. Ask any cancer patients. Stats, especially with decimal points are meaningless - they would rather be pronounced cancer-free as in "real" life. Not somebody's study/research.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Ontario estimates that up to 1 in 4 residents got COVID during the omicron wave.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As many as 4M Ontarians caught COVID-19 in the Omicron wave, science table estimates
> 
> 
> Speeding the pace of vaccinations and boosters will help keep hospitalizations down, the science table says.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thestar.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> based on wastewater studies, estimate the leak was 3 weeks ago.


 ... not sure what that headline suggests. But I do like the results of the (first) sentence within.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Ontario estimates that up to 1 in 4 residents got COVID during the omicron wave.


Some experts think that 50% of the US will catch omicron by the end of this month.

Just horrendous when you look at the Canadian and US deaths. A real massacre is under way and the US isn't nearly done... lots of people are going to die.

In BC, public health estimates that 1.3% of omicron cases end up in hospital. Doesn't sound so bad until you consider what happens with 150 million cases (US projection).


----------



## james4beach

The new government policies in western countries could use a branding or marketing campaign.

How about: F*** the ELDERLY

(I'm not writing this to be insulting. Death rates are skyrocketing for people over 70, and I'm disturbed that as a society, we seem to no longer care about protecting the elderly. Opening up everything and telling young people they don't have to be careful any more, basically turns into a massacre of the elderly.)


----------



## damian13ster

Denmark, UK dropped all restrictions.
Switzerland dropping COVID passes.
Even France when beating record after record in cases is loosening restrictions.

Finally the world is waking up. Of course Canada and China will be last to go, although individual provinces are starting as well.
It is expected that Alberta will announce stopping segregation next week. 
Supposedly the truckers opened up one lane in Coots in exchange for the vax passport being dropped. Standing on the side in case the promise is broken and they need to shut the border crossing again.
Manitoba soon intends to drop all restrictions, same with Saskatchewan as of Feb 14.

Those who want to stay in their basements are still allowed to do so of course


----------



## Money172375

I read this morning that in Denmark, you don’t even need to isolate if you’ve tested positive. And the public has bought in.

I’m all for some capacity restrictions, but let’s lose the border rules. 

Honestly, if another troublesome variant (high spread, high mortality) pops up, then we’re screwed either way. I don’t think any country was able to stop the virus from entering.

haven’t looked lately, but how is Africa doing? Hear nothing but North America, Europe, Australia, NZ. Never hear anything about Africa….and very little about South Am.


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> Some experts think that 50% of the US will catch omicron by the end of this month.
> 
> Just horrendous when you look at the Canadian and US deaths. A real massacre is under way and the US isn't nearly done... lots of people are going to die.
> 
> In BC, public health estimates that 1.3% of omicron cases end up in hospital. Doesn't sound so bad until you consider what happens with 150 million cases (US projection).


Unless I am reading different sources there has been a dramatic decline across the board in the USA. Positive tests, hospitalizations, ICUs and death rates. I actually think the USA is well ahead of Canada. The lockdowns and restrictions only slowed the pace. Every second person I know in my Texas county has tested covid and are over it. Omicron isn't the Delta variant.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> The lockdowns and restrictions only slowed the pace. Every second person I know in my Texas county has tested covid and are over it. Omicron isn't the Delta variant.


I know it might seem like everyone is getting "over it" but a ton of people are also dropping dead each day.

Texas currently has a death rate of 6.4 per M and rising. That's from the TX average 191 deaths/day and pop of 30 million.
Canada's death rate is 4.0 per M and falling. Canada's pop is 38 million and currently averages 152 deaths daily.
The Texas deaths are still ramping up, hard to say how high it will get but it's going to hit at least 7 per M.

During the omicron wave, the Canadian death rate is 40% lower than TX. So Texas should be learning from Canada how to handle the pandemic, not the other way around.

(fewer deaths = better)


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> I know it might seem like everyone is getting "over it" but a ton of people are also dropping dead each day.
> 
> Texas currently has a death rate of 6.4 per M and rising. That's from the TX average 191 deaths/day and pop of 30 million.
> Canada's death rate is 4.0 per M and falling. Canada's pop is 38 million and currently averages 152 deaths daily.
> The Texas deaths are still ramping up, hard to say how high it will get but it's going to hit at least 7 per M.
> 
> During the omicron wave, the Canadian death rate is 40% lower than TX. So Texas should be learning from Canada how to handle the pandemic, not the other way around.
> 
> (fewer deaths = better)


They aren't living in a foxhole society and they aren't living in world dominated by pandemic fears. Pick your poison. I much prefer my time in Texas compared to the Canadian society preoccupied with restrictions and dire predictions from medical experts. Pick our poison.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> Pick your poison. I much prefer my time in Texas compared to the Canadian society preoccupied with restrictions and dire predictions from medical experts. Pick our poison.


Sure it's a choice, and one might say that 60% more Texans are dying (vs Canada) because of their preferred values and lifestyle.

I realize that's a huge oversimplification but there's still obviously a tradeoff.


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> Sure it's a choice, and one might say that 60% more Texans are dying (vs Canada) because of their preferred values and lifestyle.


 Today's Washington Post has the USA national data. Reported cases are down 33%this week, deaths are down 15% and hospitalizations are down 15%. That is a reflection of the trends that are in place right now. Texas had some rough patches in the past. I track the hospitalization rates and ICUs for the county I live in and they are much lower then Manitoba. Both have comparable populations.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Money172375 said:


> I read this morning that in Denmark, you don’t even need to isolate if you’ve tested positive. And the public has bought in.
> 
> I’m all for some capacity restrictions, but let’s lose the border rules.
> 
> Honestly, if another troublesome variant (high spread, high mortality) pops up, then we’re screwed either way. I don’t think any country was able to stop the virus from entering.
> 
> haven’t looked lately, but how is Africa doing? Hear nothing but North America, Europe, Australia, NZ. Never hear anything about Africa….and very little about South Am.


If we want to get through this thing it appears to me that we may need to change away from trying to slow the spread to actually speeding it up...and getting this pandemic done with. That is possibly what Denmark is doing. Of course being completely open about all that is a difficult political issue because as we should know when you get more spread you get more carnage. I would say that is better expressed in that you either get the carnage, you are going to get anyway, slowly, and live with carnage and fear for a very long time... or... you get all the carnage over with quickly and live in that world for a much shorter period of time, is really the choice we are being offered with this pandemic.

The problem here, as I said, is not necessarily science but more political. If you get more deaths and hospitalizations quicker it appears everything is worse for that period of time...and it is. Even if it equals the same or less in the end, because you shortened the pandemic significantly, not everyone will see it that way and as a politician you may lose your support and find it difficult to get it back even if the plan is very successful.

You also have to be careful what happens to your healthcare system while you are pushing this pandemic through your system so quickly. I agree with Denmark that if you are going to do this, the time is about now. Maybe end of February but most important you want as much warm weather as you can get in order to get your community exposure as safely as possible. If you wait until the end of May you may not have enough active cases to get the large part of your population exposed and protected before the colder weather (Fall/Winter) is upon you again. The main reason for the expedition of it all is not just to get this thing over and done quicker but also to attempt to get some better protection (community viral exposure) for your citizens before the next variants come along to ruin a reasonably good plan.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Sure it's a choice, and one might say that 60% more Texans are dying (vs Canada) because of their preferred values and lifestyle.


The US counts people who died with Covid as dying from Covid. Numerous health officials have said this repeatedly. It's a matter of public record. The health officials responsible for Covid stats know far more than you do.

This has been explained to you repeatedly, yet you keep pushing conspiracy theories and falsehoods.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

damian13ster said:


> There are also some well-meaning people who simply don't understand what they read, and establish their 'facts' based on false information. This is prime example for it.
> 
> just to explain why this is wrong I will use an analogy.
> 
> When you have a cancer with 40% survival rate, and you develop a drug that increases the survival rate to 40.4%, do you say the drug is 1% effective (1% increase in survival rate) or 59.6% effective?


You're analogy is completely wrong.

Cancer in itself does not have any survival rate. In your example of 40%, that 40% is factored in by a treatment of some sort. So if an alternative drug is developed to provide 40.4% survival rate, then it only increased by 0.4%, remaining at 40.4% effective.

This proves that when reading "fact", everyone will interpret them differently. Everyone is right while being wrong at the same time.


----------



## Beaver101

Mortgage u/w said:


> You're analogy is completely wrong.
> 
> Cancer in itself does not have any survival rate. In your example of 40%, that 40% is factored in by a treatment of some sort. So if an alternative drug is developed to provide 40.4% survival rate, then it only increased by 0.4%, remaining at 40.4% effective.
> 
> This proves that when reading "fact", everyone will interpret them differently. Everyone is right while being wrong at the same time.


 ... it's an "analogy" only 'cause he say so, trying to prove something ... else only he knows but can't see.

I would rather read into this story as an analogy instead.
Cancer patients called cured a decade after gene therapy


----------



## OptsyEagle

Hi @Plugging Along. If you get a chance and you don't mind can you update the board on the remaining covid situation in your house, if it still remains.

Has everyone recovered? Any remaining symptoms? Are you testing negative now? Any confirmation it was Omicron, although the timing of your infections would probably imply that?


----------



## damian13ster

Mortgage u/w said:


> You're analogy is completely wrong.
> 
> Cancer in itself does not have any survival rate. In your example of 40%, that 40% is factored in by a treatment of some sort. So if an alternative drug is developed to provide 40.4% survival rate, then it only increased by 0.4%, remaining at 40.4% effective.
> 
> This proves that when reading "fact", everyone will interpret them differently. Everyone is right while being wrong at the same time.


The analogy might not have been ideal but the point stands.
If you increase recovery by 1%, the drug is 1% effective, not (recovery without the drug + 1%) effective. You have used the latter. When reporting results in clinical studies the former is used. There is major difference between the two.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

damian13ster said:


> The analogy might not have been ideal but the point stands.
> If you increase recovery by 1%, the drug is 1% effective, not (recovery without the drug + 1%) effective. You have used the latter. When reporting results in clinical studies the former is used. There is major difference between the two.


Not sure I follow your point. 
If a new drug is increases recovery by 1%, then that drug can be considered effective by 1% more than without it.


----------



## Beaver101

From heroes to targets: At an Ontario hospital, anti-vax protests weigh on staff



> Last Updated Thursday, February 3, 2022 3:41PM EST
> _Nicole Corry says she didn't become a personal support worker to be called a hero. But she never anticipated that she would be villainized as she puts her health and family's welfare on the line to care for others amid a pandemic.
> 
> In the small industrial city of Sarnia in southwestern Ontario, Corry and her colleagues at Bluewater Health hospital are straining every nerve to see their community through the COVID-19 crisis, including those members who target them with pandemic grievances.
> 
> This duty of care to every patient, regardless of views or vaccination status, has been a lodestar for hospital staff. ... _


 ... I thought the anti-vax protests at Toronto hospitals were bad enough. Looks like there're no shortages of these (anti-vaxxers and their wannabees) in other cities, particularly the smaller ones or towns. Really disgusting and sickening to read.


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## Money172375

Top doc in Ontario sees an end to vaccine passports. I agree…..they don’t seem to do much to stop the spread. I think some risk-averse vaxxed folks may not want to be in the same room as the unvaxxed (gyms, restaurants etc), another point of division to be sure, when the day comes that vax certs arent required.









Ontario needs to 'reassess the value' of COVID-19 vaccine passport system, top doctor says


Ontario needs to 'reassess the value' of the COVID-19 vaccine passport system in the coming weeks to decide if it should be ended, the province's top doctor says.




toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Top doc in Ontario sees an end to vaccine passports. I agree…..they don’t seem to do much to stop the spread. I think some risk-averse vaxxed folks may not want to be in the same room as the unvaxxed (gyms, restaurants etc), another point of division to be sure, when the day comes that vax certs arent required.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario needs to 'reassess the value' of COVID-19 vaccine passport system, top doctor says
> 
> 
> Ontario needs to 'reassess the value' of the COVID-19 vaccine passport system in the coming weeks to decide if it should be ended, the province's top doctor says.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.ctvnews.ca


 ... I think he, as a "medical" aka the "top" doctor in the province should concern himself with the back-log of elective surgeries, chronic staff shortage, service et al at the hospitals instead of distracting the public by doing Ford's job. Where's the address on that? What's the plan there? Never mind about the "gradual approach to opening" hubris. If he's so good with predicting on the removal of the vax passport, how about giving the public a date (the month & year will do) as to when the pandemic is ending.


----------



## Eder

Money172375 said:


> Top doc in Ontario sees an end to vaccine passports. I agree…..they don’t seem to do much to stop the spread. I think some risk-averse vaxxed folks may not want to be in the same room as the unvaxxed (gyms, restaurants etc), another point of division to be sure, when the day comes that vax certs arent required.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario needs to 'reassess the value' of COVID-19 vaccine passport system, top doctor says
> 
> 
> Ontario needs to 'reassess the value' of the COVID-19 vaccine passport system in the coming weeks to decide if it should be ended, the province's top doctor says.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.ctvnews.ca



Maybe forward to Justin @headinthesand.com


----------



## OptsyEagle

Money172375 said:


> Top doc in Ontario sees an end to vaccine passports. I agree…..they don’t seem to do much to stop the spread. I think some risk-averse vaxxed folks may not want to be in the same room as the unvaxxed (gyms, restaurants etc), another point of division to be sure, when the day comes that vax certs arent required.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario needs to 'reassess the value' of COVID-19 vaccine passport system, top doctor says
> 
> 
> Ontario needs to 'reassess the value' of the COVID-19 vaccine passport system in the coming weeks to decide if it should be ended, the province's top doctor says.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.ctvnews.ca


There is no doubt anymore that the fully vaccinated with 2 doses of vaccine, taken more then 6 months ago, pose a significantly higher risk to the unvaccinated now, then the unvaccinated do to them. 

The passports/mandates helped considerably, by convincing many vulnerable people to protect themselves with vaccination, but at this point in time, I believe they serve little benefit going forward. I think it is time to get rid of them and look to the things we need to do that will take us to the end of this pandemic. 

Let's keep an eye on Denmark. They might be on to something.


----------



## zinfit

OptsyEagle said:


> Hi @Plugging Along. If you get a chance and you don't mind can you update the board on the remaining covid situation in your house, if it still remains.
> 
> Has everyone recovered? Any remaining symptoms? Are you testing negative now? Any confirmation it was Omicron, although the timing of your infections would probably imply that?
> [/QUOTE





Beaver101 said:


> ... I think he, as a "medical" aka the "top" doctor in the province should concern himself with the back-log of elective surgeries, chronic staff shortage, service et al at the hospitals instead of distracting the public by doing Ford's job. Where's the address on that? What's the plan there? Never mind about the "gradual approach to opening" hubris. If he's so good with predicting on the removal of the vax passport, how about giving the public a date (the month & year will do) as to when the pandemic is ending.


No doubt it is a problem with the healthcare system but mandates were about limiting transmission. They did encourage a high participation rate leaving 12 or 13% unvaccinated.. No amount of mandates will change that number.These holdouts will not change their minds and they have been given lots of incentives to get vaccinated.


----------



## zinfit

We should be getting a bigger and bigger supply of the Pfizer anti-viral pills. That should have a real impact on reducing the hospital strain.


----------



## sags

Some people should isolate and collect benefits ?

Should they get $2,000 each a month like the CERB....$4,000 a couple ?


----------



## Money172375

OptsyEagle said:


> There is no doubt anymore that the fully vaccinated with 2 doses of vaccine, taken more then 6 months ago, pose a significantly higher risk to the unvaccinated now, then the unvaccinated do to them.
> 
> The passports/mandates helped considerably, by convincing many vulnerable people to protect themselves with vaccination, but at this point in time, I believe they serve little benefit going forward. I think it is time to get rid of them and look to the things we need to do that will take us to the end of this pandemic.
> 
> Let's keep an eye on Denmark. They might be on to something.


How do the vaccinated pose a greater risk to the unvaxxed?


----------



## OptsyEagle

Money172375 said:


> How do the vaccinated pose a greater risk to the unvaxxed?


Because the unvaccinated and fully vaccinated (2 doses) can equally spread the virus to each other BUT the outcomes are going to be far from the same. In most cases the unvaccinated will give the fully vaccinated a cold like experience, but when the vaccinated spread an equal infection to the unvaccinated it still has the potential to send the unvaccinated to the hospital, the ICU and let us not forget about the grave. That is what I meant.

If there is any reason at all these days to maintain vaccine passports/mandates, in our current environment, it would simply be to protect the unvaccinated...not to protect the vaccinated. The fully vaccinated are still protected from severe outcomes but the unvaccinated unfortuneately are not. Do you see what I mean?

With all that said, we still need to get rid of these passports/mandates and focus on things that will move us out of this pandemic. I hate to say this but protecting the unvaccinated from community viral exposure just leaves us in a continuous risk position. It is time to allow them the exposure they will inevitably experience. Hopefully they will decide to vaccinate, to protect themselves, for when that day happens but they are running out of time. We need to move forward and out of this pandemic life and their exposure unfortuneately is just one of the hurdles we need to get past...and it is far from the only one.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> No doubt it is a problem with the healthcare system but mandates were about limiting transmission. They did encourage a high participation rate leaving 12 or 13% unvaccinated.. *No amount of mandates will change that number.These holdouts will not change their minds and they have been given lots of incentives to get vaccinated.*


 ... I do not disagree with the bolded part given the continuous encouragement and support for the anti-vaxxers.

This "priority" message from the Dr. Moore does nothing but a disservice to Ontario's vaccination campaign. Having said this, at this point in time, we might as well send the extra (soon to expire too) doses to poorer nations. At least that may help quell any variants from developing instead of my tax dollars going to waste.

Moreover, we should cancel further purchases of the anti-viral pills as they'll certainly not help get the vaccination rates up.

Additionally, we should do away with the useless rapid testings which does absolutely nothing other than wasting money with false positives. [Including the "positive" of providing some people with the need to self-diagnose or play doctor.]

If there's no need for proof of vaccination, then it's only logical there's no need for self-isolation either. Hell, all those may be happening now without the need for Dr. Moore's "expertise" in this announcement.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> We should be getting a bigger and bigger supply of the Pfizer anti-viral pills. That should have a real impact on reducing the hospital strain.


 ... very limited supply and restricted eligibility. Young un-vaxxed qualifies at the lowest rung of the pole.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Some people should isolate and collect benefits ?
> 
> Should they get $2,000 each a month like the CERB....$4,000 a couple ?


 ... yep, catch Covid and collect $2K/month without going to jail.


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## Eder

I love Scott Moe & Saskatchewan in general


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489245072436744193


----------



## OptsyEagle

He always seems to come up short of giving any kind of firm dates and details. You would think he would wait a few days until he had more of a plan but I do like the overall message. Lockdowns and restrictions were really only beneficial to give us time to develop effective vaccines and to complete that vaccination program so that everyone who wanted that protection could obtain it. I think when they are offering 3rd and 4th doses we can safely say that has been done.

At this stage of the pandemic any sort of continuation of restrictions is really just a delay in what we all need to do to get out of this mess...and we do need to get out of this mess. The government has done what they can but they really cannot protect us anymore. We all know what each of us need to do to stay safe. It is time to move forward.


----------



## sags

So Scott Moe is going to end mandatory vaccinations, cancel PCR testing and no longer report on covid cases ?

It sounds to me like he is going to let the virus run regardless of the consequences, and is so afraid of what may be coming that he wants to create a media blackout to hide the information from the public.

I doubt it will work. The hospitals will know. The doctors and nurses will know, and most importantly anyone trying to access healthcare will know.

When you call 911 for an emergency and they tell you they aren't coming because they have nowhere to take you.........people notice.

Already in Canada, hospitals are short staffed. Thousands of nurses have retired or quit and not been replaced. Those working are overworked and worn out.

In Ontario, Premier Doug Ford is meeting with the Ontario Nurses Association to try to figure out how to bolster the hospitals.

It isn't just hospitals either. Long term and retirement homes have been losing staff for the last 2 years and nobody is applying for the jobs.

Our local hospital says there are 7,000 patients on waiting lists for surgeries and treatments. It will take 5 years to work through the backlog.

Unfortunately, many patients will die waiting for treatment, and more are added every day.

They will be unable to treat those patients, if all the hospital staff is reassigned to the ER, ICU and Covid wards.

Hospitals will be unable to respond to any major event.....by accident or other causes. They just won't have available staff or resources.

I know people are tired of the restrictions, but they clearly haven't thought out all the ramifications of removing restrictions.

Patients are already piled up on stretchers in the ER corridors. What will the public response be to people lying on the sidewalk outside of hospitals ?

I think politicians are playing with fire. They succumb to the demands of the vocal minority but risk a wholesale revolt by the overwhelming majority.

At the very least, they should have strengthened the hospitals to get ready for the tidal waves of new patients that will be coming.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Top doc in Ontario sees an end to vaccine passports. I agree…..they don’t seem to do much to stop the spread. I think some risk-averse vaxxed folks may not want to be in the same room as the unvaxxed (gyms, restaurants etc), another point of division to be sure, when the day comes that vax certs arent required.


Yeah I think policy makers are gradually catching up with the state of the science.

I figured it out back in December myself. Basically, it's now overconfident vaccinated people who are spreading covid everywhere. They spread it at work, at the gym, and obviously at home. I only started to understand this through a growing number of anecdotal incidents I heard from friends.

In each case, there was a personal gathering (all vaccinated and boosted people). One person had covid, and others walked away from the meeting with covid as well. We know how omicron is spreading, and it's spread by vaccinated people.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> No doubt it is a problem with the healthcare system but mandates were about limiting transmission. They did encourage a high participation rate leaving 12 or 13% unvaccinated.. No amount of mandates will change that number


Completely agree and I think people are kind of losing sight of the big picture.

We had an effective vaccination campaign, and it's *done*. At this point we have vaccinated everyone who's willing to take it. Canada has one of the highest vaccination rate in the world. We are not going to achieve 100% vaccination, we already have effectively something like 95% for people at any kind of risk (over age 40).

It was a good campaign, and it was successful: this helped reduce the load on hospitals and kept the cases mild.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> We had an effective vaccination campaign, and it's *done*.


But is it? With the omicron updated booster coming out that could change the landscape again.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> But is it? With the omicron updated booster coming out that could change the landscape again.


I'd love to see an omicron-tuned booster. Is there talk of this coming out soon?

I would also think that people who already are vaccinated are much more likely to get this in any case. The holdouts who didn't get the first 2 shots wouldn't exactly go for the booster(s).


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> I'd love to see an omicron-tuned booster. Is there talk of this coming out soon?


Studies are underway, potential release in March.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*'It's time': Moe says COVID-19 restrictions on freedoms will soon end in Saskatchewan*
REGINA — Premier Scott Moe says his Saskatchewan Party government will soon end COVID-19 measures that he says restrict people's rights and freedoms.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I'd love to see an omicron-tuned booster. Is there talk of this coming out soon?


Why? Data suggests the omicron wave is over for Canada, with a substantial minority having had it already.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> But is it? With the omicron updated booster coming out that could change the landscape again.


The timing of our warmer weather better coincides with our best opportunity then the hope of a better Omicron vaccine. Even if Pfizer produces it by March, the largest number of us would be lucky to have any by late Summer. No matter how fast they are with the vaccine too many Canadians will still refuse it and be vulnerable going into the colder seasons again, putting our hospitals in jeopardy again. For the ones that do it would be very unlikely that it would stop transmission completely since these vaccines that go into our arms are unlikely to provide the IgA antibodies that we probably need to offer us sterilizing immunization (stop transmission). Exposure to the actual virus, on the other hand, has a much better ability to do that, and no permissions by anyone is required for it.

In any case, not everyone will get exposed to Omicron in the next 6 months no matter what happens so if improvements in vaccines (Omicron) and treatments (viral pills) actually make it to us that would be great, but waiting for things, that still don't have any real world experience, is just waiting. Waiting is killing our society in so many ways it is probably our bigger threat.

How we proceed can be varied to some degree. Masking is an easy one to remove and reenact if required, but locking down businesses and private gatherings has to end...at any cost. Anything else is just a delay of that cost, that comes with a bonus cost, each time we attempt it.


----------



## Plugging Along

OptsyEagle said:


> Hi @Plugging Along. If you get a chance and you don't mind can you update the board on the remaining covid situation in your house, if it still remains.
> 
> Has everyone recovered? Any remaining symptoms? Are you testing negative now? Any confirmation it was Omicron, although the timing of your infections would probably imply that?


Sure, I will try and quote part of my last update for a little continuity. Below was how were a few weeks ago.



Plugging Along said:


> Another update Covid experience update and my reflection (will have my learnings but will be long)
> Spouse (out of isolation since last Thursday) had lingering cough, but managed to get out and exercise, it was hard at first, but then it seemed to clear out his lungs and he feels almost a 100%, other than the cough.
> Youngest - We rapid tested her again on Sat (day 5) because she wanted to go to her practice (first major comp this weekend) and she was still negative. Tested again for school yesterday, still negative, so kept her home. She had not had any symptoms since the day before she tested positive. She is also officially out of isolation since Sunday, and is just bouncing around.
> Oldest - She was feeling better by Saturday, still had a little sore throat and was fatigued. I had her come with me for a PCR test as I am eligible and there is an option to add other family members on. So she had a PCR on Saturday, and was POSITIVE.
> Myself - I was still off on Saturday, and decided to get the PCR due to my eligibility. Showed up POSITIVE. When my results on my PCR came back I received information for that early treatment and was trying to figure out if I was eligible. You have to take it within the first 5 days of symptoms. Since I had a negative PCR even though I had symptoms, we could tell when I actually had COVID symptoms. Only sometime after that. The healthlink calculated it was mostly like when I had the really bad two days, which now would be over 5 days. It also means that my isolation is officially over. I still have symptoms, but they have gotten better. It's pretty normal for me to have very long colds during times, I don't sleep very much.


When I wrote that we were all just officially out of isolation but still recovering.
My spouse (the first by a week) was feeling really tired, and had a lingering couch just felt congested. When allowed, he went to play hockey. The first night, he had problems on the ice catching his breath. He said he felt there was stuff 'stuck' in his lungs, and then 'spewed out a big chunk of gunk (mucus)'. Pardon the disgusting description, his words not mine, and I hope you are eating, like we were when he told us. He another game the next night, and said it was like there was no difference than pre-covid, and the gunk was cleared out. For about another week and a half he was a little more tired than normal, and took a few more naps. He's at 100%

My youngest - was feeling perfectly fine the day she tested positive (she had symptoms the couple of days before). Her throat was a little dry, so we kept her extra hydrated. Since she was still in isolation, she did her own training (she is on a competitive team) instead of practices. She was less tired, probably because wasn't at practice until 10 and up so early, so go more sleep. With exception of the 1.5 days of symptoms prior to testing positive she has no effects of further covid.

My oldest was the sickest. We isolated her longer than everyone else. She returned after about day 8 or 9 when I sure she was feeling better. Unfortunately, she missed all of the return to school and final review period for final exams. She ended up walking into her math final which her teacher forget to post online the review sheets, then had to go in for a english final after the weekend, only to find out the teacher forget to post the in class notes and made her write two make tests, one which she had 15 minutes to review the class notes, and she had to hand in 2 weeks of final assignment in 2 days or not get full credit. So she was tired much longer. . I am not if it was because she got dumped to final exams and catching up with weeks of assignment in 5 days. After she off her semester, she was able to rest and sleep in until next term, and all was back to normal a few days. Honestly, I don't believe there were long term physical impact, but the secondary stress of being dumped into finals that was was awful. She went from a high honors to honors for the first time in her life. I think that was harder for her than any else. She had soccer for the first time last week, the first day of practice, she had a similar experience as my spouse, it was shorter practice, and she came out ready to throw up and could barely breath. She coughed for hours after practice. Then she had practice and a game two nights in row, and said her endurance was a little off, but her breathing was so much better.

Myself - I was extra tired for about 2 weeks after isolation. (I am normally tired). I am not as active, so it may have taken me longer to recover. No long term effects that I can tell.

We have not retested, as they said there could be continual positive tests for a while. I was going to do it when I visit my mother's ltc home, but they are currently under lock down. So it will be a few weeks. For us, being extra tired for a longer period of time seemed to be the biggest longer term symptom. Though some very vigorous active seemed to clear everything out.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Thanks for that. Very informative. I wonder if the exertion might have helped your husband a little. Sounded a little like an exorcism. Did his head spin around and did he talk like he had the devil in him while the spewing was happening? lol 

Just kidding. I am glad you guys are feeling a lot better. Thanks for the update.


----------



## Eder

Looks like vaccine mandates are beginning to fall like a house of cards in Canada. I wonder if the feds will drop theirs as well once JT has recouvered from his bout of Coward-19? For us travellers we can only hope.


----------



## Beaver101

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/unvaccinated-dad-loses-custody-risk-100000126.html



> _CBC.ca Fri., February 4, 2022, 5:00 a.m.·7 min read
> 
> *A New Brunswick father who is refusing to be vaccinated against COVID-19 has lost his right to see his immunocompromised child and his two other children in person.*
> 
> Justice Nathalie Godbout of the Court of Queen's Bench writes in her decision that she was ruling "with a heavy heart" but that the health risk to the 10-year-old child made the decision necessary.
> 
> And she debunks the "research" the father did himself that he says led him to question the safety and efficacy of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.
> 
> "His own anecdotal research on such a highly specialized topic carries little to no weight in the overall analysis when measured against the sound medical advice of our public health officials," Godbout writes.
> 
> The parents separated in 2019 and agreed to share custody of their three children.
> 
> But the COVID-19 pandemic and the refusal of the father and his new spouse to be vaccinated posed a serious risk to the children, Godbout wrote, especially the middle child who gets specialized care for non-cancerous tumours in her blood vessels.
> 
> Their mother asked the court for a change to the custody agreement ending the father's in-person access to his three children.
> 
> *As the parents who are caring for [the child] 50 per cent of the time, in close quarters, unmasked and unvaccinated, they are well-positioned to transmit the virus to [the child] should they contract it, this despite their best efforts," the ruling says.*
> 
> "It is no contest: the current science in the face of a highly contagious virus far outweighs Mr. F.'s layman wait-and-see approach."
> 
> ..._


 ... what a dum-dum.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Why? Data suggests the omicron wave is over for Canada, with a substantial minority having had it already.


The wave is over the peak but we're currently having 2x the number of cases over the highest point from previous waves. If another omicron wave (or similar variant) comes around the case count could explode again. Of course if a significantly different variant comes around it may be back to square one again.


----------



## Plugging Along

OptsyEagle said:


> Thanks for that. Very informative. I wonder if the exertion might have helped your husband a little. Sounded a little like an exorcism. Did his head spin around and did he talk like he had the devil in him while the spewing was happening? lol
> 
> Just kidding. I am glad you guys are feeling a lot better. Thanks for the update.


We actually think it did help. My spouse and oldest were both 'flemmy' and felt congested. They did think they were going to die from the exercise, but it seemed to work. I heard my oldest use cuss words when she came out of practice and she was really mean, so maybe it was a possession. 
Thanks for asking.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> The wave is over the peak but we're currently having 2x the number of cases over the highest point from previous waves. If another omicron wave (or similar variant) comes around the case count could explode again. Of course if a significantly different variant comes around it may be back to square one again.


But we're nicely below peak hospitalization and peak ICU. 
I think cases isn't the best way to measure impact.
I know some people who recently had COVID, some said they had a minor cold, some said they were "the sickest they've ever been".

Intial fatality rate was looking like 1-3%, current hospitalization rate is like 0.1%, and death rate is far lower.
Cases early, when we didn't have vaccines, or treatment or capacity are not the same as with this far less deadly variant, and all the treatment options we have today. Still not great, but it's not crisis level IMO.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> But we're nicely below peak hospitalization and peak ICU.
> I think cases isn't the best way to measure impact.


In MB our hospitalization numbers are still high, 3x higher than the start of the year. ICU numbers are not too bad though. In any case, omicron boosters still might serve a purpose in the future.


----------



## MrMatt

FYI, nationwide we're below peak ICU of previous waves, and we're coming down.








Ontario hospitalizations are just over half what they were a few weeks ago.
Clearly the situation varies, and I hope it doesn't get too bad in the other provinces, as patient transport is risky.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> FYI, nationwide we're below peak ICU of previous waves, and we're coming down.


The ICU peak in this wave got awfully close to our previous all time high, as shown below. This wasn't a mild wave. Yes the disease was milder for each individual infection, but the number of total infections was much higher than before.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> The ICU peak in this wave got awfully close to our previous all time high, as shown below. This wasn't a mild wave. Yes the disease was milder for each individual infection, but the number of total infections was much higher than before.


I never said it was a mild wave, scroll back a month, I was expecting it to be potentially worse.
It was far more cases, and more hospitalizations, roughly even ICU, and most fortunately not as many deaths.

But it looks like we're past the most recent peak, lets just hope it keeps dropping. But now that we have data, I'm not too concerned about Omicron, particularly since so many people have gotten it, it's unlikely this variant is going to overwhelm us... that will be the next one.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> I never said it was a mild wave, scroll back a month, I was expecting it to be potentially worse.
> It was far more cases, and more hospitalizations, roughly even ICU, and most fortunately not as many deaths.


Yes this turned out to be less severe than the worst case scenario. I'm very grateful about that too... we got kind of lucky here.

My friends's 80 year old mom was in the ICU. I texted her yesterday and was relieved to hear she's recovering and has been sent home from the hospital. A close call. We owe a big thanks to the hard working hospital workers of BC who kept her alive.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> I never said it was a mild wave, scroll back a month, I was expecting it to be potentially worse.
> It was far more cases, and more hospitalizations, roughly even ICU, and most fortunately not as many deaths.
> 
> But it looks like we're past the most recent peak, lets just hope it keeps dropping. But now that we have data, I'm not too concerned about Omicron, particularly since so many people have gotten it, it's unlikely this variant is going to overwhelm us... that will be the next one.


I thought Ontario was seeing daily deaths at the highest they have been during the pandemic. Sure, the rate is lower, but we are stacking corpses at an alarming rate.

What does not appear in the statistics are the high number of highly disabled survivors, some of whom spend hundreds of days in hospital, consuming huge amounts of health care resources.


----------



## Eder

Ontario is stacking corpses unrelated to covid...they suspect over 50,000 cases of cancer has gone undetected due to health care clamping down on non Covid procedures. Good trade!


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## sags

There are a lot of covid deaths coming from LTC home patients. I would think they are all triple vaccinated but it doesn't seem to matter.

It is true that people are spending more time in hospitals and clinics with covid symptoms long after infection.

I talked to an ER RN at the hospital and she said the "long haulers" are coming in every day in larger numbers.

The doctors still don't really understand this virus and the calls to find the origin are increasing.

Interesting that covid has now been found in the rats in NYC, so it is jumping from animal to human to animal.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

The new cases reported Thursday included 346 people who were fully vaccinated, 321 people who had received a booster shot, 147 individuals who weren’t vaccinated or were less than three weeks from receiving their first shot, and 23 people who had received one dose or were within three weeks of getting their second.
99% effective according to big pharma. Yeah right. Lol.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> I thought Ontario was seeing daily deaths at the highest they have been during the pandemic. Sure, the rate is lower, but we are stacking corpses at an alarming rate.
> 
> What does not appear in the statistics are the high number of highly disabled survivors, some of whom spend hundreds of days in hospital, consuming huge amounts of health care resources.


Maybe.
The rate was similar to the first and second wave, but those waves look like they lasted longer, this wave is looking like it might be very short. 
https://www.publichealthontario.ca/...i/covid-19-daily-epi-summary-report.pdf?la=en << page 5

I think it was still pretty serious, and we did strain our hospital capacity, but overall I'd say it appears that this wave wasn't as bad as it could have been. If it was a bit more contagious, or a bit more dangerous (ie lethal/serious) it could have been quite a bit worse. 

The real problem with Omicron is the initial spike went almost vertical, it was spreading so fast it looked like we'd be quickly overwhelmed, and many systems WERE overwhelmed. Testing and contact tracing was basically turned off because we couldn't keep up.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> The real problem with Omicron is the initial spike went almost vertical, it was spreading so fast it looked like we'd be quickly overwhelmed, and many systems WERE overwhelmed.


Mainly a timing issue ... hit right before the xmas/new years break when everyone was getting together indoors.


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## fstamand

Curious how cases are getting tracked these days as there's no "public" testing anymore. I know news is showing hospitalization rates and deaths, but is it really a good way to measure the contagion rates?


----------



## OptsyEagle

fstamand said:


> Curious how cases are getting tracked these days as there's no "public" testing anymore. I know news is showing hospitalization rates and deaths, but is it really a good way to measure the contagion rates?


There never really was a great way to know how many people were infected or carried an active infection in our communities on any given day. In the past, it was estimated, and reasonably researched, that magnitudes more infections were happening then what was showing up from PCR testing. This was mainly due to the magnitude more infections that will be asymptomatic or very, very mild, where an infected person never get tested.

That said, as long as whatever they do is consistent, trends from it can be extrapolated. So the testing they did do was reasonably useful to model trends but once symptomatic infections from Omicron overwhelmed our testing abilities, that method of extrapolation was rendered erroneous, while they were changing their testing criteria. Once they standardize on their new testing criteria and get a certain amount of data from that, it can then start to become more useful again in helping us model the current situation.

That is kind of how it works. Hospitalizations and ICU data has not changed much so it has remained useful but it does have a significant delay. Sewage testing has come about to give us the more up to date revelations but I suspect there can be some variations in what any daily observation is actually revealing, but at least the testing method has remained consistent and that is probably the most important factor or at least a very important one.


----------



## Beaver101

fstamand said:


> Curious how cases are getting tracked these days as there's no "public" testing anymore. I know news is showing hospitalization rates and deaths, but is it really a good way to measure the contagion rates?


 ... seems like it when (early) words coming out from (a) top medical officer's mouth (Ontario's) is "you have to learn to live with it". 

That's akin to saying "you're on your own buddy, pandemic or not".


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> There are a lot of covid deaths coming from LTC home patients. I would think they are all triple vaccinated but it doesn't seem to matter.
> 
> It is true that people are spending more time in hospitals and clinics with covid symptoms long after infection.
> 
> I talked to an ER RN at the hospital and she said the "long haulers" are coming in every day in larger numbers.
> 
> The doctors still don't really understand this virus and the calls to find the origin are increasing.
> 
> Interesting that covid has now been found in the rats in NYC, so it is jumping from animal to human to animal.


 ... so just how is the medical community dealing with the "long haulers"? And where're the treatment studies at this point? 

Or is it still a dice-rolling once a patient lands in ICU, intubated? If so, maybe they should ramp up ventilators production or make the morgues bigger.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Interesting that covid has now been found in the rats in NYC, so it is jumping from animal to human to animal.


It was found in animals months ago.

It's important to remember that COVID originally jumped from other animals to humans.

it's also notable that a lot of coronavirus research is specifically lifestock focused


----------



## Spudd

Ukrainiandude said:


> The new cases reported Thursday included 346 people who were fully vaccinated, 321 people who had received a booster shot, 147 individuals who weren’t vaccinated or were less than three weeks from receiving their first shot, and 23 people who had received one dose or were within three weeks of getting their second.
> 99% effective according to big pharma. Yeah right. Lol.


The vaccine was reported at 95% effective (not 99 unless I'm remembering it wrong) against original covid. 

It is pretty much known now, and reported by public health, not just by you, that against Omicron variant, the vaccine is not very effective against infections. It is, however, still very effective against severe outcomes.


----------



## james4beach

CBC has eye-opening interviews with nurses and parademics from Manitoba. Everyone should listen to this to understand the strain that's on hospitals because this isn't just Manitoba.

Nurses are burned out, but they are toughing it out for now. It's a ticking time bomb, the nurses are going to retire en masse.

There are constant incoming patients, and the whole machinery has slowed to a crawl because of the pandemic. There's nowhere to put the new patients. They are left in the waiting room, where some of them die. Some of them are left in the ambulances.



"White Coat Black Art with Dr. Brian Goldman"
Manitoba 9/11



https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-75-white-coat-black-art/clip/15893378-manitoba-911


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> CBC has eye-opening interviews with nurses and parademics from Manitoba. Everyone should listen to this to understand the strain that's on hospitals because this isn't just Manitoba.
> 
> Nurses are burned out, but they are toughing it out for now. It's a ticking time bomb, the nurses are going to retire en masse.


They should take care of themselves, go on stress leave.
Remember they are rather well paid too, part of that is to compensate for the stress.
I know a few people in health/mental/other care, and many of them burn out because they're too empathic.

I'm not sure what the policy is there, but mandating vaccines is contributing to the staffing shortage. It was okay to have the health care workers work unvaccinated for over a year, against a more dangerous virus, but now that it's weaker, we don't want you? Oh and now we're short handed.


----------



## Money172375

Ontario trends looking good. Note: approx half of those hospitalized are there for reasons other than COVID. 20% of those in ICU, are in there for non-COVID reasons.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> I'm not sure what the policy is there, but mandating vaccines is contributing to the staffing shortage. It was okay to have the health care workers work unvaccinated for over a year, against a more dangerous virus, but now that it's weaker, we don't want you? Oh and now we're short handed.


This is a political talking point. Vaccine mandates are not making a significant difference in shortages. There are very few unvaccinated people out there.

The big factor in shortages are how many healthcare workers are out sick, plus those quitting / retiring due to exhaustion. The ones who leave are being replaced with nurses who are fresh out of school, who are under-trained and need many years to come up to speed.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> I never said it was a mild wave, scroll back a month, I was expecting it to be potentially worse.
> It was far more cases, and more hospitalizations, roughly even ICU, and most fortunately not as many deaths.
> 
> But it looks like we're past the most recent peak, lets just hope it keeps dropping. But now that we have data, I'm not too concerned about Omicron, particularly since so many people have gotten it, it's unlikely this variant is going to overwhelm us... that will be the next one.


It is in the USA. The Washington Post yesterday showed a weekly drop of 40% in reported cases and a 15% drop in hospitalizations. Canada will eventually follow suit.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> This is a political talking point. Vaccine mandates are not making a significant difference in shortages. There are very few unvaccinated people out there.
> 
> The big factor in shortages are how many healthcare workers are out sick, plus those quitting / retiring due to exhaustion. The ones who leave are being replaced with nurses who are fresh out of school, who are under-trained and need many years to come up to speed.


I'm sorry, when you fire thousands of staff, that's contributing to the staffing shortages.

You think they're replacing them with nurses? 
Here they're pulling PSW's from Long term care homes and putting them in hospitals.

I know one who finished their school less than a year ago, and they are competent and conscientious, but new.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> I'm sorry, when you fire thousands of staff, that's contributing to the staffing shortages.
> 
> You think they're replacing them with nurses?
> Here they're pulling PSW's from Long term care homes and putting them in hospitals.
> 
> I know one who finished their school less than a year ago, and they are competent and conscientious, but new.


Especially when one knows that with Omicron vaccines give very little protection against transmission.. I agree lets follow the science.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Most Canadians don’t need a COVID-19 vaccine booster shot, Tam says.*


----------



## james4beach

Ukrainiandude said:


> Most Canadians don’t need a COVID-19 vaccine booster shot, Tam says.


Well you are quoting an old statement from quite a while ago. But I do want to talk a bit about this. You might recall, I have not gotten a booster yet, and it's deliberate. I'm going to wait a bit longer before I get it.

The intent of the booster is to restore protection that may have reduced over time. So the question is whether the protection from 2 shots is wearing off. We can look at some data in a very recent study of Ontario covid cases.

*Quick answer: protection from 2 shots is not wearing off, yet.*

Page 23 has a table showing vaccine effectiveness against "severe outcomes". This shows that 2 doses of mRNA vaccines even 8 months after vaccination were 86% effective against omicron, for severe outcomes. A third dose increases effectiveness to 95%.

So yes... a booster shot does increase effectiveness against severe outcomes. If someone is in any of the high risk categories, such as over age 70 or vulnerable health, then they will benefit from the booster as it does increase protection. High-risk people need every bit of protection they can get.

But an increase from 86% to 95% isn't that big a difference. Two shots is providing plenty of protection for most people.


----------



## OptsyEagle

The question I am confounded with goes like this. So you've had a couple doses of vaccine that was working well against symptomatic infection, with the previous variants, and then comes along Omicron and that protection from infection drops down to almost nothing. We then hit a person again, with another shot of the very same vaccine, and their protection rises up to about 61%.

Now since, the protection against infection of 2 doses, between days 7-59, was 36%, one would assume that the protection from the 3rd dose will drop down again to around that level after a similar amount of time. If they don't take a 4th shot soon thereafter, their protection should drop down to the 1% to 15% that the 2 dose groups are showing, after longer periods of time from their last shot.

If what I say is true and this happens, then the 36% protection must have started in the 60% range, closer to day 7, and fell to something much lower then 36% by the 59th day, to offer an average of 36% for the participants in the survey for day 7-59. So, what I am saying is that the waning of protection against Omicron infection must be something that wanes incredibly quick...or something else is going on.

(Note: Above, I am just talking about protection from infection. Protection from severe outcomes still looks great as J4B has explained).


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> So yes... a booster shot does increase effectiveness against severe outcomes. If someone is in any of the high risk categories, such as over age 70 or vulnerable health, then they will benefit from the booster as it does increase protection. High-risk people need every bit of protection they can get.
> 
> But an increase from 86% to 95% isn't that big a difference. Two shots is providing plenty of protection for most people.


Agree. I had my booster just about a week before I got Covid. I have a couple of high risk factors, so I figure anything I can do would help. I got sick, but no severe outcomes. I don't know if the booster helped or not, but I know I did everything I could. It would have been worst to not the get the booster and then get really sick with severe outcomes and wonder if I had could have/should have done something else.

My spouse, had his appt for his booster cancelled, and then he caught covid first. He doesn't have hardly any risk factors, so he has decided that he will wait to see if he needs a booster, as they have now said wait at least 3 months after you get covid. He may wait longer, or not get it at all, he will wait to see what's happening in the world and our area.

I think we were at the point that once you have your first set of vaccinations, everyone has to look at their own specific circumstances. I am believe that the vaccines was one of the things that saved alot of lives and reduced strain on the system. Now, if most of the vulnerable have been boosted, the rest of the population needs to decide what is best for them. We need to start learning to live with Covid.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Spudd said:


> It is, however, still very effective against severe outcomes.





Plugging Along said:


> I had my booster just about a week before I got Covid. I have a couple of high risk factors, so I figure anything I can do would help. I got sick, but no severe outcomes. I don't know if the booster helped or not, but I know I did everything I could.


My 84 year old grandma had covid for second time recently. Unvaccinated. No severe outcomes, no hospitals, no oxygen needed. Still doesn’t want to get vaccinated.


----------



## Plugging Along

Ukrainiandude said:


> My 84 year old grandma had covid for second time recently. Unvaccinated. No severe outcomes, no hospitals, no oxygen needed. Still doesn’t want to get vaccinated.


What's your point? Science says that the vaccine does reduce severe outcomes, even with all the variants. Just as smoking causes cancer, it doesn't mean that everyone who smokes will get cancer. One can choose to make decisions based on scientific information or on their emotions and fake facts. I have learned that as frustrating as it is, if someone is set in their thinking and it's based on emotions, then you can't reason with them. 

Our former acquaintance who is an antivaxxer had got covid in Oct and was hospitalized then. I think he is scheduled for release from the hospital this month recovery this month. He was a really fit, early 50's guy. He stated he was in perfect shape (apparently would run all time) AND he had god protecting him. 

I know lots of people who have been hospitalized. WHEN there is no impact on others (through infection or overwhelming the healthcare system), then I fine with them living with their own decisions. Just don't get in a huff when 84 granny dies and then think others are unsympathetic. 

If your grandma doesn't want to to get vaccinated, and it know longer impacts others, then that is her choice. Our acquaintance left a family of 6 kids in limbo for months while he recovers. Their kids had to drop out of activities because they could no longer afford them. There are always impacts on ones decisions, and that person has to live with them.


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## OptsyEagle

@Plugging Along I think your family is in pretty good shape going forward. The concrete proof should be coming along soon but it is my opinion that the best prevention from infection with Omicron will be a previous infection of Omicron. I can't say it won't eventually wane like the other protections, since the waning of antibodies is not exclusive to vaccination but I suspect you guys are protected much higher right now then the 61% protection the 3rd dose vaccinated are achieving...and of course everyone vaccinated or infected has great protection against severe outcomes.

In my opinion, it was this concept of waning immunity, from the reduction of antibodies that created the misconception that previous infection was not as good as vaccination. Obviously one has less control on the dosage, when one gets infected compared to vaccination, and that most likely has some negative results on protection for perhaps asymptomatic infections, but in my opinion, if you had symptoms you are pretty well good to go. Your immune system obviously noticed it and responded they way we want it to respond. That is what the symptoms are. The misconception I refer to is the fact that what they basically did, in the past, was take people who were recently vaccinated and compared their antibody levels and their serological blood results, to people previously infected, who were probably infected anywhere between months ago to a year ago or more, and said hey look, the vaccinated (very recent vaccinations, less time to wane) do better then the previously infected (much longer ago. More time to wane). You see what I mean?

Unless you control the time from vaccination and compare it to a similar time of infection you are looking at apples to oranges, due to the rapid decrease in antibodies that happen in both scenarios. Those antibodies are really the main protection against infection. Without them, both vaccination and previous infection fall short.

In either case you can't go wrong with having both protections.


----------



## sags

I am concerned with older or higher risk people who have to work to survive. They don't really have an option to "protect" themselves.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Plugging Along said:


> What's your point?


My point is, let people make their own decisions. Life is all about choices. There’s no need to discriminate people based on their medical history. I respect your choice and you should respect mine. I don’t care if you are vaccinated or not, and neither should government, just be civilized.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> My 84 year old grandma had covid for second time recently. Unvaccinated. No severe outcomes, no hospitals, no oxygen needed. Still doesn’t want to get vaccinated.


 ... so was your 92 year old grandpa, and then there was your uncle ... all unvaxxed and caught Covid , still alive ... in Ukraine. OK, we get it's their choice and your real made-up world. Sheesh.

Almost forgot to add your concern about the big pharmas are making gazillion of dollars off the sheep-people in this world, along with the microchips being implanted in the vaccines and yet not nano-cryptocurrencies.


----------



## Plugging Along

OptsyEagle said:


> @Plugging Along I think your family is in pretty good shape going forward. The concrete proof should be coming along soon but it is my opinion that the best prevention from infection with Omicron will be a previous infection of Omicron. I can't say it won't eventually wane like the other protections, since the waning of antibodies is not exclusive to vaccination but I suspect you guys are protected much higher right now then the 61% protection the 3rd dose vaccinated are achieving...and of course everyone vaccinated or infected has great protection against severe outcomes.
> 
> In my opinion, it was this concept of waning immunity, from the reduction of antibodies that created the misconception that previous infection was not as good as vaccination. Obviously one has less control on the dosage, when one gets infected compared to vaccination, and that most likely has some negative results on protection for perhaps asymptomatic infections, but in my opinion, if you had symptoms you are pretty well good to go. Your immune system obviously noticed it and responded they way we want it to respond. That is what the symptoms are. The misconception I refer to is the fact that what they basically did, in the past, was take people who were recently vaccinated and compared their antibody levels and their serological blood results, to people previously infected, who were probably infected anywhere between months ago to a year ago or more, and said hey look, the vaccinated (very recent vaccinations, less time to wane) do better then the previously infected (much longer ago. More time to wane). You see what I mean?
> 
> Unless you control the time from vaccination and compare it to a similar time of infection you are looking at apples to oranges, due to the rapid decrease in antibodies that happen in both scenarios. Those antibodies are really the main protection against infection. Without them, both vaccination and previous infection fall short.
> 
> In either case you can't go wrong with having both protections.


This makes a lot of sense. The challenge is trying to pull the facts relevant to my family. I am hoping that being infected and that I had 3 shots, puts me in pretty good shape. However, this virus has just kept changing, so I am still cautious in protecting my family and myself. I still wear good masks, try to social distance, and follow the rules, but it's difficult not to just say 'we all got it, we are all vaccinated, we are good'. 

Though I do think the contagiousness of Omicron is a game changer. So many people got infected, most not tested, that I feel this may be the herd immunity were are hoping for.


----------



## Plugging Along

Ukrainiandude said:


> My point is, let people make their own decisions. Life is all about choices. There’s no need to discriminate people based on their medical history. I respect your choice and you should respect mine. I don’t care if you are vaccinated or not, and neither should government, just be civilized.


I generally believe that people should make their own choices, EXCEPT when there are impacts that go beyond them. When the vaccine was at up to a 95% effectiveness for reducing infections and severe outcomes, and our health system was toppling, I think mandates, include vaccine mandates were necessary if one was to choose to participate in society. When the unvaccinated were the ones tying up ICU (up to 40 times more), and spreading it more, then at time, action needed to be taken. 

With changes from the original COVID, the vaccine has shown to be less effective in preventing spread, but still very effective in reducing severe outcomes. I think if the health system is not toppling, and the unvaccinated are not spreading it any more than the vaccinated, then is a choice of the individual. However, as soon as the healthcare system starts to be overwhelmed again, measures will need to be taken again. 

It comes down to balancing the greater good of society vs the rights of the individual. As information and the scenario changes, so should the measures. As longs as someone elses choices do not impact me, or my family, then I am fine.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Plugging Along said:


> As longs as someone elses choices do not impact me, or my family, then I am fine.


 What was this personal impact? I don’t believe hospitals were overwhelmed, but I believe that the work time management should be more efficient. I recommend you compare nurses in the USA working their arses off vs relaxed and chatting attitude in Canadian health establishments. When nurses threaten to quit, I dare them, Canadian nurses are useless in any other developed country, and in Canada where are they going to get this kind of overpaid jobs ? In Mac Donald?


----------



## Plugging Along

Ukrainiandude said:


> What was this personal impact? I don’t believe hospitals were overwhelmed, but I believe that the work time management should be more efficient. I recommend you compare nurses in the USA working their arses off vs relaxed and chatting attitude in Canadian health establishments. When nurses threaten to quit, I dare them, Canadian nurses are useless in any other developed country, and in Canada where are they going to get this kind of overpaid jobs ? In Mac Donald?


Hospitals in my province last wave were overwhelmed. The majority of ICU patients were COVID patients and surgeries were being cancelled. Lost an acquaintance because their surgery was reschedule again, and they died. My kids friend had her surgery reschedule again, leaving a 14 year old in debilitating pain while their hands webbed over because they couldnt get the surgery they needed. Our friend with cancer had to wait for treatments. My tenant moved back to France because he could get treatment faster for his stage 4. All because of people with COVID being infected. Unvaccinated person infected brought it into the LTC, which stemmed 8 cases into the home, one died. These are some of the impacts that people unvaccinated had on others. I list many more.


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> My point is, let people make their own decisions. Life is all about choices.


That means you have to respect people. The authoritarians don't.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Plugging Along said:


> This makes a lot of sense. The challenge is trying to pull the facts relevant to my family. I am hoping that being infected and that I had 3 shots, puts me in pretty good shape. However, this virus has just kept changing, so I am still cautious in protecting my family and myself. I still wear good masks, try to social distance, and follow the rules, but it's difficult not to just say 'we all got it, we are all vaccinated, we are good'.
> 
> Though I do think the contagiousness of Omicron is a game changer. So many people got infected, most not tested, that I feel this may be the herd immunity were are hoping for.


Also, the waning of protection against infection, that both vaccination and previous infections had against Omicron were not nearing as large, or happen so quickly, against Delta, Beta, Alpha and the other previous variants. So, it is my opinion with Omicron, where people vaccinated will be lucky to get 2 months of protection from infection, from the vaccines currently being offered, a person previously infected with Omicron should garner protection from infection at a much higher level, and for a much more longer timeframe, just like the vaccinated had with the previous variants, that saw only a little waning over a very long period of time, going out towards almost 8 months and still going strong until those previous variants left our communities and we could not track this anymore.

I believe your family is very well protected now but it is always good to wait until it is confirmed with more then just a few logical theories I might put forward. Now, all we have to do is get the rest of us some safe exposure and I think this country may be able to put this pandemic behind us once and for all. We really need to get it done before the next big variant comes our way again.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> That means you have to respect people. The authoritarians don't.


 .. and I really wonder who those "authoritarians" really are ... Trudeau, Tam, Moore, Ford, Elliott, Tory, etc.? How about the entire current government of Canada - all levels?


----------



## sags

Personally, I blame Stephen Harper.

He was warned Canada wasn't prepared for a future pandemic and he left the emergency supply empty.

He could have stocked up on PPE and strengthened healthcare, but he would rather give tax cuts to the wealthy.


----------



## damian13ster

Why stock up on PPE supplies? So we can send more of it to China once pandemic actually begins like the current government did?


----------



## diharv

sags said:


> Personally, I blame Stephen Harper.
> 
> He was warned Canada wasn't prepared for a future pandemic and he left the emergency supply empty.
> 
> He could have stocked up on PPE and strengthened healthcare, but he would rather give tax cuts to the wealthy.


And did your buddy do any better in the four years after he was elected before the SHTF?


----------



## londoncalling

Privacy commissioner: Few realized the government was tracking their pandemic movements (msn.com) 

I find it hard to believe that few realized our phones track all our daily activities. I believe it was a key item for some of those opposing vaccinations. I would be curious as to how many that are concerned about this movement tracking have no idea or issue with other tracking such as google, FB and Apple to name a few.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Personally, I blame Stephen Harper.
> 
> He was warned Canada wasn't prepared for a future pandemic and he left the emergency supply empty.
> 
> He could have stocked up on PPE and strengthened healthcare, but he would rather give tax cuts to the wealthy.


Well Trudeau took charge in 2015, years before the pandemic, and should have replenished the supplies, or at least he could have NOT shipped them off to China in early 2020.

The fact that Trudeau mismanaged the stockpile in 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020 isn't the fault of Stephen Harper.


----------



## cainvest

londoncalling said:


> Privacy commissioner: Few realized the government was tracking their pandemic movements (msn.com)
> 
> I find it hard to believe that few realized our phones track all our daily activities. I believe it was a key item for some of those opposing vaccinations. I would be curious as to how many that are concerned about this movement tracking have no idea or issue with other tracking such as google, FB and Apple to name a few.


I'm fine with it.


----------



## damian13ster

I gave google, apple, and fb permission to track my movements in exchange for services they provide. That is completely different


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> Now since, the protection against infection of 2 doses, between days 7-59, was 36%, one would assume that the protection from the 3rd dose will drop down again to around that level after a similar amount of time.
> . . .
> So, what I am saying is that the waning of protection against Omicron infection must be something that wanes incredibly quick...or something else is going on.


I have the same concerns. If the goal is to protect from infection, we seem to not be getting much benefit from repeated shots.

No question it does help boost immunity, but how long is it going to last?

We'll probably be in better shape when Pfizer's new omicron-focused vaccine rolls out.


----------



## damian13ster

By the time that comes out, Omicron will be over and new variant will come out, making vaccines even less effective. The new variant already took over Denmark, passing omicron


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> By the time that comes out, Omicron will be over and new variant will come out, making vaccines even less effective. The new variant already took over Denmark, passing omicron


True, but some variants are related. Denmark has an off-shoot of omicron so there's a possibility that vaccines which target a couple strains could work well, even when we don't know which variant is coming next.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> That means you have to respect people. The authoritarians don't.


This explains why government is so objective to gun law and allowing Canadians have a gun in personal vehicle. This for one could help Canadian cops to think twice before act and harass people like they do it here.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> I have the same concerns. If the goal is to protect from infection, we seem to not be getting much benefit from repeated shots.
> 
> No question it does help boost immunity, but how long is it going to last?
> 
> We'll probably be in better shape when Pfizer's new omicron-focused vaccine rolls out.


I could not agree more. The problem in the decision to take the information we have both provided and decide the 3rd dose is not necessary is that we really don't know how much of the boost, the 3rd dose people get in the benefits that help against severe outcomes, actually comes from this immune response that is currently helping them against infection. It may not be coming from that part, which I expect will be waning soon. Maybe they will get to keep that part of the boost, but I doubt it. It is all a little confusing but I will try to elaborate.


From study you posted, a few posts back, one can see that if a person takes a 3rd dose, they can also boost their protection against severe outcomes, with Omicron, from around 80% to almost 95%. For most of us, we both seem to agree that is not enough benefit to justify the risks that might go with another shot of the same vaccine. For the more vulnerable people like the elderly or those with comorbidities, it might be the difference between life and death for quite a few of them. 

What I want to watch out for is that it is my suspicion that whatever is in the vaccine that helps boost our protection from infection, from almost nothing to around 61% with a 3rd dose, is also probably the thing that helps with the boost to the severe outcome protection also. Therefore, if it wanes quickly in its ability to help protect us against infection, its waning will most likely drop our protection from severe outcomes back to the 80% level as well...but I cannot say that for sure, right now.

Again, we cannot forget that the only real difference between a person with 2 shots and a person with 3 shots, in our communities right now, is mainly the time from their last shot and of course the difference in the number of shots they have taken. I don't think the number of shots, of an exact same vaccine, matters that much. I suspect it is the shorter time, from their last shot, that is making all the difference, in both infection and severe outcome protections, and as we know time is something that just keeps on ticking, and we will probably find that both protections are a waning proposition...or maybe I will be wrong.

If my estimates are correct it should not take too much more time for us to start to find this out.


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> This explains why government is so objective to gun law and allowing Canadians have a gun in personal vehicle. *This for one could help Canadian cops to think twice before act and harass people like they do it here.*


 ... wow. Why would a cop (Canadian), like a law enforcement officer carrying his/her badge be "harassing" people in the first place? Cops are not above the law like some god-delusional bodies are.


----------



## londoncalling

damian13ster said:


> I gave google, apple, and fb permission to track my movements in exchange for services they provide. That is completely different


You are correct in that there is a key difference. My comment was more tangential, as one has to click agree to terms and services with these services. I know several people that had no clue how much tracking actual is done by the software they use. If you know what you are looking for you can toggle on and off settings but not sure the average user does that. Perhaps my peers are just careless but they were not pleased when I showed them that their devices share a lot of information.

Back to the original link I posted. I am glad the privacy commissioner spoke out. I knew that my movements were being tracked the first time I had to have my vax pass scanned. I would be curious how many places have the employee using their personal device to do so. I even asked a server one morning, whose device was doing the scanning and she told me it was her personal phone. I am not a techie but my guess is in certain hands that code could be used to get even more information. Most people have no clue how little privacy we have left.


----------



## sags

Vaccines are NOT losing their effectiveness at reducing the most serious covid symptoms.

The ICU numbers confirm the un-vaccinated are experiencing the worst outcomes.


----------



## sags

The doctors and experts agree that vaccinations are the key for society to return to normal.

Only 40% of Canadians have taken a booster shot. That isn't high enough to end the pandemic.

Appointments are easy to get. Get your booster shot today !


----------



## sags

Listen to the doctors working in the hospitals. 

Ignore the politicians and Youtube "experts".


----------



## MK7GTI

Don’t get your booster unless your over 50 or a Covid crazy. Doctors and experts, whoever the experts are, are just quadrupling down on their stance. It’s already been proven vaccines and mandates won’t end this. Governments will end this by accepting their fate and let us move on. But continue on with the nonsense sags.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I was watching a news conference with Dr. Moore of Ontario, last week, and during these conferences they never fail to encourage vaccination and the 3rd dose. When he was done making his plea for the 3rd dose he did add "especially if you are age 50 or older".

I know he would like everyone to get a 3rd shot because he knows it would help a lot in taming down the current surge of infections, but you could tell from his recommendation that he probably knows that most people under age 50 really don't need it for their own personal benefit. That is how I took the message anyway.

In my opinion, for the citizen's younger then 50, in fairly good health, we would all probably be better off if they did not get their 3rd dose. I think we are getting to the point where we might want to take our foot off the breaks, on the spread of this Omicron virus, and actually start stepping on the gas. IMO, it would be better, with that younger age group, who have 2 doses of vaccine in them already, to have the spread run though them quicker. If we can get this very large group of citizen's exposed to Omicron and then recovered, their improved immunity will put a very effective buffer between them and the more vulnerable citizens in our communities. It would lower the rate of infections on those older and more vulnerable citizens, significantly helping our hospitals deal with the severe outcomes that will come from them, by reducing the rate of how many hit the hospitals at any one time. Also, just as important, it would reduce the viral loads many of our more vulnerable citizens might be exposed to, when they are in the vicinity of these younger infection recovered people, who should be spreading much lower viral loads, after they recover from their Omicron exposure. Of course, for this to work well our vulnerable citizens really need to protect themselves while the main surge of infections ravages through their communities.

Preferably, we need all this to happen before the next variant comes along and during warmer weather would also provide much benefit. There is a very good chance the next variant may not be as big of problem for us if we have both old variant vaccination and new variant exposure. With that our immune systems should be seriously bolstered to deal with most new mutations this little virus prick can send at us. Just my opinion, of course. I haven't heard too many better ideas going around anyway.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Vaccines are NOT losing their effectiveness at reducing the most serious covid symptoms.


 ... the virus isn't going away ever. Everyone on this planet, sooner or later on this planet is going to catch one version (or multiples of it) either "naturally" or via vaccines. Vaccine is the easy way out whereas the "natural" is well - head you win, tail you lose. Still your choice.



> The ICU numbers confirm the un-vaccinated are experiencing the worst outcomes.


 ... being un-vaxxed is still a choice. And this choice will provide a forever job to our healthcare workers ... only saddest part is the burnout rate with this industry at which point then everyone can self-care at home via bleach, imvecterin, mary janes, whatever chemical ... or listening to some social media celebrity expert for the latest cure.


----------



## Beaver101

MK7GTI said:


> Don’t get your booster unless your over 50 or a Covid crazy. Doctors and experts, whoever the experts are, are just quadrupling down on their stance. *It’s already been proven vaccines and mandates won’t end this.* Governments will end this by accepting their fate and let us move on. But continue on with the nonsense sags.


 .. that's because of selfish-pricks who won't hesitate to share their germs with everyone else by not following mandates meant to protect (society=everyone) by disguising standing up for 'freedom" - for whom? Themselves, not society at large.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> I was watching a news conference with Dr. Moore of Ontario, last week, and during these conferences they never fail to encourage vaccination and the 3rd dose. When he was done making his plea for the 3rd dose he did add "especially if you are age 50 or older".
> 
> I know he would like everyone to get a 3rd shot because he knows it would help a lot in taming down the current surge of infections, but you could tell from his recommendation that he probably knows that most people under age 50 really don't need it for their own personal benefit. That is how I took the message anyway.
> 
> In my opinion, for the citizen's younger then 50, in fairly good health, we would all probably be better off if they did not get their 3rd dose. I think we are getting to the point where we might want to take our foot off the breaks, on the spread of this Omicron virus, and actually start stepping on the gas. IMO, it would be better, with that younger age group who have 2 doses of vaccine in them already, to have the spread run though them quicker. If we can get this very large group of citizen's exposed to Omicron and then recovered, their improved immunity will put a very effective buffer between them and the more vulnerable citizens in our communities. It would lower the rate of infections on those older and more vulnerable citizens, significantly helping our hospitals deal with the severe outcomes that will come from them, by reducing the rate of how many hit the hospitals at any one time AND just as importantly, reduce the viral loads many of our more vulnerable citizens might be exposed to when they are in the vicinity of these younger infection recovered people who should be spreading much lower viral loads, after they recover from their Omicron exposure. Of course, for this to work well our vulnerable citizens really need to protect themselves while the main surge of infections ravages through their communities.
> 
> We kind of need all this to happen before the next variant comes along and during warmer weather would also provide much benefit. There is a very good chance the next variant may not be as big of problem for us if we have both old variant vaccination and new variant exposure. With that our immune systems should be seriously bolstered to deal with most new mutations this little virus prick can send at us. Just my opinion, of course. Not too many better ideas going around anyway.


 ... I would agree under age 50 do not require the booster. In which case, these extra vaccines should be shipped to underdeveloped countries in need of a vaccine. And pronto with that. Win-win.


----------



## londoncalling

To the points above about the positions of our experts one should remain cognizant of the changing narrative. The situation has evolved and continues to evolve. It will also have regional nuances based on outcomes and decisions made by each province. 

The experts are making real time decisions based on the information they have available. Human factor and desired outcomes are balanced in this decision making. I think most are ready to let things run their course. Of course, each of us can take additional precautions should we choose. My hope is that future variants do not cause the same damage that we experienced during the past two years. I empathize with those that have endured hardship due to Covid either directly or indirectly. We also have no clue as to the long term effects of Covid or the vaccine. Nor do we know what the financial cost will be to future tax payers. 

CP NewsAlert: Saskatchewan ending COVID-19 passport, lifting mask requirement - Alaska Highway News

The pandemic has become a divisive issue. It is a complex matter. My own opinion is that it is time to starting lifting restrictions as some have done already and some other places did not impose as heavily. I do not think we should be abandoning tracking and reporting Covid results but at the same time realize the difficulty in doing so as a result of Omicron spread.


----------



## MK7GTI

Beaver101 said:


> .. that's because of selfish-pricks who won't hesitate to share their germs with everyone else by not following mandates meant to protect (society=everyone) by disguising standing up for 'freedom" - for whom? Themselves, not society at large.


Sure pal, whatever you say.


----------



## Beaver101

MK7GTI said:


> Sure pal, whatever you say.


 ... because that's the ugly truth.


----------



## damian13ster

Ottawa Police exempt from vaccine mandate 😅 😅 😅
Now go and steal fuel from people who don't want mandates


----------



## sags

Governments removing vaccine mandates are abandoning their sacred duty of protecting citizens.

They are doing it for perceived political expediency and it exposes their lack of leadership.

They cater to a small splinter group of supporters, but it won't end well for them.

Another wave of the virus will sweep across Canada, just as previous waves have.

Canadian voters will punish the leaders lacking the courage of conviction.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Governments removing vaccine mandates are abandoning their sacred duty of protecting citizens.
> 
> They are doing it for perceived political expediency and it exposes their lack of leadership.
> 
> They cater to a small splinter group of supporters, but it won't end well for them.
> 
> Another wave of the virus will sweep across Canada, just as previous waves have.
> 
> Canadian voters will punish the leaders lacking the courage of conviction.


The governments don't have a duty to protect citizens from their own bad decisions.
In fact they actually have a duty not to infringe on the human rights of their citizens.

I think that almost everyone should get vaccinated, however I don't think the government should be able to mandate an unwanted medical procedure.

I think at times even some of the requirements are a bit much, but could be swalllowed, but to pull EI & termination benefits from those who were terminated for refusing a medical procedure, that was not a requirement at the time of hiring, is just way too far.

It's also important to note that ones medical & bodily autonomy is given one of the highest levels of protection, and for good reason. Perhaps you haven't heard, but the Government has a nasty history of unwanted non-consensual medical procedures.


----------



## Beaver101

Provinces to relax COVID-19 restrictions, say risk assessment lies with citizens 

No more governmental interference! No more authoritarians! Now the provinces can set its own date as to when the pandemic will be over. Or maybe it is over in some people's heads. So basically with this announcement, you're on your own, buddy with managing the Covid-risk now. Ie. go buy and do your own tests if you get Covid and cure yourself with whatever - try bleach first.

Sadly, nothing said about the multi-years healthcare services backlog.


----------



## sags

We already know what happens when restrictions are removed.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> From study you posted, a few posts back, one can see that if a person takes a 3rd dose, they can also boost their protection against severe outcomes, with Omicron, from around 80% to almost 95%. For most of us, we both seem to agree that is not enough benefit to justify the risks that might go with another shot of the same vaccine. For the more vulnerable people like the elderly or those with comorbidities, it might be the difference between life and death for quite a few of them.


Really good posts, above.



OptsyEagle said:


> I was watching a news conference with Dr. Moore of Ontario, last week, and during these conferences they never fail to encourage vaccination and the 3rd dose. When he was done making his plea for the 3rd dose he did add "especially if you are age 50 or older". . . . you could tell from his recommendation that he probably knows that most people under age 50 really don't need it for their own personal benefit. That is how I took the message anyway.


Bonnie Henry (in BC) has been saying or implying similar things. Of course they encourage everyone to get a 3rd shot, but Bonnie has always stressed that it's absolutely critical that older people do this. Then she usually adds, everyone is encouraged to get a 3rd shot but it's clear from their communications that young people are not the main focus.

I also don't want my comments to be misunderstood, and that's probably also why Public Health doesn't get into these nuances. It's *absolutely essential* that older and vulnerable people get a 3rd shot. My mom is over 60 and I'm relieved that she's gotten all 3 shots -- that's the right thing to do.


----------



## sags

Ontario is opening up the LTC homes while most of the covid deaths are from LTC homes.

I will be surprised if the military isn't called again to work in Ontario LTC homes.

Doug Ford's "iron ring" around LTC homes was made out of marshmallows.


----------



## 307169

MrMatt said:


> The governments don't have a duty to protect citizens from their own bad decisions.
> In fact they actually have a duty not to infringe on the human rights of their citizens.
> 
> I think that almost everyone should get vaccinated, however I don't think the government should be able to mandate an unwanted medical procedure.
> 
> I think at times even some of the requirements are a bit much, but could be swalllowed, but to pull EI & termination benefits from those who were terminated for refusing a medical procedure, that was not a requirement at the time of hiring, is just way too far.
> 
> It's also important to note that ones medical & bodily autonomy is given one of the highest levels of protection, and for good reason. Perhaps you haven't heard, but the Government has a nasty history of unwanted non-consensual medical procedures.


Yes and yes, 
1. Vaccines have proof itself that it cannot be use to curtail the spread of COVID. If this is the case, the public interest argument that government use to restrict human rights does not stand.

2. Paternalism and its policy is the excuses use by the government to harm the first nation greatly (residential school to "educate the Indian" for example ). So never trust the government too much, as it cannot guarantee itself to be always benevolent (unlike God).


----------



## 307169

sags said:


> Ontario is opening up the LTC homes while most of the covid deaths are from LTC homes.
> 
> I will be surprised if the military isn't called again to work in Ontario LTC homes.
> 
> Doug Ford's "iron ring" around LTC homes was made out of marshmallows.


Most old people in LTC is already vaccinated, they will be fine.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> My point is, let people make their own decisions. Life is all about choices. There’s no need to discriminate people based on their medical history. I respect your choice and you should respect mine. I don’t care if you are vaccinated or not, and neither should government, just be civilized.


Should we respect their choice to put themselves at much greater risk of expensive hospital stays? We tax smokers to compensate for their higher risk of consuming disproportionate health care resources.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> This explains why government is so objective to gun law and allowing Canadians have a gun in personal vehicle. This for one could help Canadian cops to think twice before act and harass people like they do it here.


Cops, in an environment where they expect everyone to potentially have a gun, tend to be much more likely to use lethal force in encounters out of fear. I am quite comfortable with the idea of police not fearing that I will whip out a pistol during a traffic stop.


----------



## andrewf

OptsyEagle said:


> I was watching a news conference with Dr. Moore of Ontario, last week, and during these conferences they never fail to encourage vaccination and the 3rd dose. When he was done making his plea for the 3rd dose he did add "especially if you are age 50 or older".
> 
> I know he would like everyone to get a 3rd shot because he knows it would help a lot in taming down the current surge of infections, but you could tell from his recommendation that he probably knows that most people under age 50 really don't need it for their own personal benefit. That is how I took the message anyway.
> 
> In my opinion, for the citizen's younger then 50, in fairly good health, we would all probably be better off if they did not get their 3rd dose. I think we are getting to the point where we might want to take our foot off the breaks, on the spread of this Omicron virus, and actually start stepping on the gas. IMO, it would be better, with that younger age group, who have 2 doses of vaccine in them already, to have the spread run though them quicker. If we can get this very large group of citizen's exposed to Omicron and then recovered, their improved immunity will put a very effective buffer between them and the more vulnerable citizens in our communities. It would lower the rate of infections on those older and more vulnerable citizens, significantly helping our hospitals deal with the severe outcomes that will come from them, by reducing the rate of how many hit the hospitals at any one time. Also, just as important, it would reduce the viral loads many of our more vulnerable citizens might be exposed to, when they are in the vicinity of these younger infection recovered people, who should be spreading much lower viral loads, after they recover from their Omicron exposure. Of course, for this to work well our vulnerable citizens really need to protect themselves while the main surge of infections ravages through their communities.
> 
> Preferably, we need all this to happen before the next variant comes along and during warmer weather would also provide much benefit. There is a very good chance the next variant may not be as big of problem for us if we have both old variant vaccination and new variant exposure. With that our immune systems should be seriously bolstered to deal with most new mutations this little virus prick can send at us. Just my opinion, of course. I haven't heard too many better ideas going around anyway.


I'm skeptical of opening wide up during winter/flu season. By spring/summer, by all means. I expect to be largely back to normal by then. Maybe still masks in certain contexts (but those are to protect others more than yourself). Feb/March tend to be time frames with high levels of flu tranmission. Flu has been kept in check due to social distancing and could flare up in addition to COVID if we 'pour gas on the fire' now, as you suggest.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> The governments don't have a duty to protect citizens from their own bad decisions.


Didn't you oppose drug legalization and harm reduction on these grounds?


----------



## sags

The anti-covid, anti-mask, anti-vaccine, anti-mandate crowd is a tiresome lot.

Here we are more than 2 years into a pandemic and they are still flailing away in the denial swamp.

Hopefully some day in the near future the pandemic will be over, and the "anti-everything" crowd can claim victory.

They can then return to their climate change denying, immigration bashing, George Soros, Bill Gates, and chemtrails conspiracies.


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> Personally, I blame Stephen Harper.
> 
> He was warned Canada wasn't prepared for a future pandemic and he left the emergency supply empty.
> 
> He could have stocked up on PPE and strengthened healthcare, but he would rather give tax cuts to the wealthy.


yes when all else fails blame Harper.


----------



## zinfit

andrewf said:


> Didn't you oppose drug legalization and harm reduction on these grounds?


Seemed he was also in favour of a the total closure of the border and a ban on all international travel.


----------



## james4beach

Johnny_kar said:


> Most old people in LTC is already vaccinated, they will be fine.


I don't think they will be fine. Even when vaccinated, deaths over age 70 continue to be very high.

In BC, the "critical care" rate (meaning not just hospitalization but oxygen support or ICU) for people over 70 is 16 per 1M population at the end of January. The rate for all ages in the province is only 2 per 1M.

So the rate of very severe COVID outcomes in 70+ people is running at 8x that of the broad population. They're all vaccinated!

Alberta also breaks down their stats by vaccination status, so I can tell you the stats purely for vaccinated people. Over the last four months here are the AB stats:

354 total deaths of vaccinated people
289 of them or *82% of deaths were age 70+*
That's why I call this new policy of opening everything the "F*** THE ELDERLY" policy.

Young (vaccinated) people don't die from covid. They hardly ever end up in hospital either. So we have decided to let the young people have a fun and normal lifestyle, without much concern for the elderly and the medically vulnerable, _who are still dying in huge numbers_.


----------



## MrMatt

Johnny_kar said:


> Yes and yes,
> 1. Vaccines have proof itself that it cannot be use to curtail the spread of COVID. If this is the case, the public interest argument that government use to restrict human rights does not stand.
> 
> 2. Paternalism and its policy is the excuses use by the government to harm the first nation greatly (residential school to "educate the Indian" for example ). So never trust the government too much, as it cannot guarantee itself to be always benevolent (unlike God).


I've been saying this for months.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Alberta also breaks down their stats by vaccination status, so I can tell you the stats purely for vaccinated people. Over the last four months here are the AB stats:
> 
> 354 total deaths of vaccinated people
> 289 of them or *82% of deaths were age 70+*
> That's why I call this new policy of opening everything the "F*** THE ELDERLY" policy.
> 
> Young (vaccinated) people don't die from covid. They hardly ever end up in hospital either. So we have decided to let the young people have a fun and normal lifestyle, without much concern for the elderly and the medically vulnerable, _who are still dying in huge numbers_.


The thing is, were these people going to die from something else anyway?
Not to be too harsh, but lots of people 70+ are going to die anyway, maybe COVID is accelerating that a bit, but so does any other communicable disease.

My real question is, is 289 deaths really "huge numbers", that's less than 0.1% of the population in that age group.
For Canada, the mortality in those age groups due to other causes is much higher





Mortality rates, by age group


Number of deaths and mortality rates, by age group, sex, and place of residence, 1991 to most recent year.




www150.statcan.gc.ca




70-74 - 1.8%
75-79 3%
80+ >5%


----------



## OptsyEagle

We need to keep in mind, when considering our options, that they are very limited. Waiting to face this virus affords us very little benefit. The Omicron vaccines, that may come in the future, won't solve this problem because it will take too long to administer and too many people will refuse it. Right about now is the best time to face this virus and facing it is our eventual future. We all know that. We also need to consider that this virus never provided much danger to the vast majority of people on this planet. Add to that original risk, 2 or 3 vaccination shots and a milder variant in Omicron, and I think we can see that facing this particular virus probably offers us our best odds of success.

What we need to do is decide on a full opening date. I think early March would be timed about perfectly. We need to stress to the vulnerable and aged that, for them, this is precisely the time NOT to socialize. This is the time for mass exposure for everyone else, and for anyone worried about that, they definitely need to stay housebound and masked as long as they can holdout. No indoor family gatherings, only outdoor gatherings and very short indoor moments like using a washroom, etc. and wear a mask as much as you can. Stay away from restaurants and travelling etc.

Let the virus run rampant pretty much as fast as it can spread. The reason for that is we cannot expect our vulnerable to wait forever and their best chance at surviving, their inevitable exposures, is to receive it from a person who has already recovered from an Omicron infection. Those previously infected with Omicron are unlikely to be passing around nearly as big of infectious dose that we are all doing, right now. That offers them their best chance at success for when they also meet the virus...and they will meet this virus.

It may still be cold in March but it will be very cold in November, December and January again and it would be safer to get all this community exposure by using the maximum amount of warm weather we can get. When that warm weather hits us, around April/May, we actually want to have a fairly large base of active infections already, in order to get some exposure to the entire population before the colder weather is upon us again. If that happens we run a very high risk of another variant coming along. When the next variants come our way our best chance to be protected from them is if most of us possess immunity by both vaccination plus Omicron viral exposure.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> We need to keep in mind, when considering our options, that they are very limited.


Options are limited but I would still like to see lots of caution while we're in peak cold & flu season. Respiratory viruses are always a problem this time of year.

I don't mind relaxing restrictions but it should be happening closer to April, not now IMO.

Actually I have absolutely no idea why provinces are trying to relax things right now. Seems like a dumb idea to me, at peak cold & flu season.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> The thing is, were these people going to die from something else anyway?
> Not to be too harsh, but lots of people 70+ are going to die anyway, maybe COVID is accelerating that a bit, but so does any other communicable disease.
> 
> My real question is, is 289 deaths really "huge numbers", that's less than 0.1% of the population in that age group.
> For Canada, the mortality in those age groups due to other causes is much higher
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mortality rates, by age group
> 
> 
> Number of deaths and mortality rates, by age group, sex, and place of residence, 1991 to most recent year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www150.statcan.gc.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 70-74 - 1.8%
> 75-79 3%
> 80+ >5%


I got news for ya.......everyone is going to die from something.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I got news for ya.......everyone is going to die from something.


Glad you agree with me.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> I got news for ya.......everyone is going to die from something.


And @MrMatt how about when you're 75 or 80 yourself? Do you want the rest of society to shrug you off because "you'll probably inevitably die of something anyway".

How about all those tax dollars you paid during your peak income earning years. Didn't you buy the right to good healthcare in your old age?


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Actually I have absolutely no idea why provinces are trying to relax things right now. Seems like a dumb idea to me, at peak cold & flu season.


Because the risk of death from covid today is lower than it was earlier in the pandemic. The death rate for healthy vaccinated people today is tiny.
The publics perception of COVID is that it's "no big deal".
Since hospitals are clearing out, the "emergency" is over.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> And @MrMatt how about when you're 75 or 80 yourself? Do you want the rest of society to shrug you off because "you'll probably inevitably die of something anyway".
> 
> How about all those tax dollars you paid during your peak income earning years. Didn't you buy the right to good healthcare in your old age?


Quite simply, yes.

We don't shut down the whole country every year because of the flu.
Today very few people are actually dying from COVID, I'm not saying it's an issue, but the draconian restrictions of March 2020 are an overreaction.
Maybe some action should still be taken, and I do support some restrictions, but not expensive restrictions that have negligible benefit.


----------



## Money172375

Hospitalizations and ICU numbers continue to trend down in Ontario. ICU down about 20% from 1 week ago.

I hate it that they still report people in hospital for reasons other than COVID, who just happen to have COVID. 

lots of debate around opening up a bit now vs. April/may. Let’s remember, that at least in Ontario, most non-essential is still only allowed 50% capacity. And personal gatherings are still limited to 10. I think this is good step. Next phase is planned for Feb 21 i believe, which will allow 100% capacity in most places, and gatherings up to 25.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Because the risk of death from covid today is lower than it was earlier in the pandemic. The death rate for healthy vaccinated people today is tiny.


The risk of death is lower for most of us, true, but there's still a significant risk of death to people over 70 and people with medical vulnerabilities.

It depends on age. The pandemic isn't "over' for everyone. Canada has a huge population of people over age 70.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Because the risk of death from covid today is lower than it was earlier in the pandemic. The death rate for healthy vaccinated people today is tiny.
> *The publics perception of COVID is that it's "no big deal".
> Since hospitals are clearing out, the "emergency" is over.*


 ... bolded parts are laughable. Which "public's" perception that Covid is no big deal? Don't corral the vaxxeds with the unvaxxeds (and their wannabees) since the latter has always believed Covid was just a "flu" - no big deal.

How are the hospitals clearing out? Are ICU numbers down to zero or close to that? Are you predicting that the hospitals can't become overwhelmed again with Covid cases? 

What about the backlog of elective surgeries, healthcare services - are those being cleared out too with no emergencies required? If so, then the staffing shortage isn't a problem, ain't it?


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Glad you agree with me.


 .. the usual spin.


----------



## Money172375

Any idea what ICU numbers were like in Ontario before COVID? Is that data available? I believe Ontario has the worst beds/population ratio in the country so we can use that as a benchmark.


----------



## londoncalling

B.C. premier says province will follow public health guidelines over COVID restrictions ending | Globalnews.ca

At least politicians across the coutnryare in agreement that not alienating voter base should be the determining factor in covid response.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I think Ford is gonna to jump on that bandwagon soon too. Which then can give Trudeau all the reason to cancel the vaccination procurement program earlier than predicted though not sure how Pfizer and Moderna can be stockpiled. Oh forgot, there's still a supply of the anti-viral pills, enough for the population of Ottawa so we're (all provinces) covered.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I think too many of you believe we have a lot more time here then we actually do, to get this job of viral exposure completed. If another variant comes along and pushes Omicron out of our reach, by taking over as the dominant strain, how will we get that vital exposure we all need in order to end this pandemic, if the new variant turns out to be much more severe then Omicron?

I would rather face Omicron now then have to go back into full retreat because of some other nasty variant that comes along. As for the older groups at risk, I doubt they are going to get any younger by waiting. 10 years from now we are all going to graduate into the risk group of people 10 years older. Let's not do that. I think that might be a lot more risky for everyone. Just saying.

It's going to take a lot of time to get all that exposure (+70% of our population). I know we look at the number of infections that have happened with Omicron, in just a couple months, and think that we will all see if very quickly but as more and more of the population gets infected, the infection rate will slow considerably. Therefore, the remaining ones will find it difficult to obtain their exposure, which will leave them much more vulnerable to new variants.

I think we need a full reopening by April at the latest.


----------



## andrewf

OptsyEagle said:


> I would rather face Omicron now then have to go back into full retreat because of some other nasty variant that comes along.


Those aren't the only options. Getting infected now doesn't stop another variant coming along that escapes acquired immunity (through vaccination or infection). The virus doesn't care about your feelings...


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Those aren't the only options. Getting infected now doesn't stop another variant coming along that escapes acquired immunity (through vaccination or infection). The virus doesn't care about your feelings...


You might even be more vulnerable by wearing down your body with a severe infection. Covid infections cause severe inflammation which doesn't go away that quickly. It can stress out and possibly harm the heart, lungs, and other organs.

Just because omicron is survivable doesn't mean it's a good idea to catch it. I'm trying to avoid catching it.


----------



## sags

Alberta is lifting most restrictions at midnight tonight, citing declining cases in hospitals.

But.....

_As of the most recent update, there are *1,623 people in Alberta's hospitals*, *up from 1,542* reported on Monday. There are *129 patients in ICU up from 118 patients* Monday. *Thirteen more deaths *were reported on Tuesday. _

The truth is that Premier Kenney folded under pressure from the un-vaxxed minority.


----------



## 307169

andrewf said:


> Should we respect their choice to put themselves at much greater risk of expensive hospital stays? We tax smokers to compensate for their higher risk of consuming disproportionate health care resources.


Do those people always consume more medical resources in the end, consider they now die earlier, which will save money in the future. 

Not to mention medical resource will (and have) prioritized away from those people when out medical system is overloaded. So in the end, does it really cost more ?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Alberta Premier Jason Kenney has announced effective midnight Tuesday, the province’s COVID-19 vaccine passport program will end
Time to heal the division’: Saskatchewan ending proof of vaccination Monday
*Sask. to end COVID-19 proof of vaccination policy on Feb. 14, mandatory masking to remain until end of month*


----------



## damian13ster

About time. As of midnight vaccine passports are gone in Alberta. 
Masking for children too


----------



## diharv

andrewf said:


> Those aren't the only options. Getting infected now doesn't stop another variant coming along that escapes acquired immunity (through vaccination or infection). The virus doesn't care about your feelings...


So the other option is to hide forever. Best wishes to those that choose that route. I bet we see news stories years after this is largely over about people who haven't let themselves out of self imposed lockdown.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> The risk of death is lower for most of us, true, but there's still a significant risk of death to people over 70 and people with medical vulnerabilities.
> 
> It depends on age. The pandemic isn't "over' for everyone. Canada has a huge population of people over age 70.


Not really, the risk of dying from COVID19 is an order of magnitude lower than other causes.
it's still there, and yes it's an issue, but even in the most at risk populations it isn't a key driver of death.

I'm not saying it isn't an issue, just that with the current situation, it isn't the biggest problem.


----------



## OptsyEagle

andrewf said:


> Those aren't the only options. Getting infected now doesn't stop another variant coming along that escapes acquired immunity (through vaccination or infection). The virus doesn't care about your feelings...


and what does stop the next variant from taking our freedoms away?

Again, I think I mentioned our options are limited. The best immunity a person can get right now, to give them the best chance to be able to stand up to whatever variant comes at them in the future, is the protection from all previous variants that the vaccines have proven to provide and protection from Omicron that recovery from infection will provide. That will eliminate the maximum number of mutations the virus can undergo, that might cause us harm. If you have a better solution to deal with this let me know.

@james4beach. Whatever happens to our bodies after infection, will happen to our bodies after infection. If you have a better way to avoid covid-19 in an endemic world that it intends to stay in, please let me know. Exposure to this virus cannot be avoided. That needs to be fully understood by everyone.

In order for us to live with this virus without a lot of problems we all need to get some exposure to this virus. The safest way to do it is during warmer weather and preferably before everyone's vaccination immunity wanes. The time is now. Everything else is just dangerous delay.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> and what does stop the next variant from taking our freedoms away?
> 
> Again, I think I mentioned our options are limited. The best immunity a person can get right now, to give them the best chance to be able to stand up to whatever variant comes at them in the future, is the protection from all previous variants that the vaccines have proven to provide and protection from Omicron that recovery from infection will provide. That will eliminate the maximum number of mutations the virus can undergo, that might cause us harm. If you have a better solution to deal with this let me know.
> 
> @james4beach. Whatever happens to our bodies after infection, will happen to our bodies after infection. If you have a better way to avoid covid-19 in an endemic world that it intends to stay in, please let me know. Exposure to this virus cannot be avoided. That needs to be fully understood by everyone.
> 
> *In order for us to live with this virus without a lot of problems we all need to get some exposure to this virus.* The safest way to do it is during warmer weather and preferably before everyone's vaccination immunity wanes. The time is now. Everything else is just dangerous delay.


 ... let's go with your methodology (bolded part). 

How about "starting everyone" and by everyone I mean everyone including the un-vaxxeds (and particularly so since Covid is just the flu) in getting the annual "flu" and see how that goes.


----------



## OptsyEagle

actually the unvaccinated are probably my main targets for exposure. It's not a cruel thing but more of a reality thing. They have held our country hostage with the risk of their future infections for way too long now. They have made their point clear that they don't intend to vaccinate, so until they are exposed and inoculated by that, we can never really be sure of our freedoms. 

Better to get that job over with during the summer months as well. I really wish they would vaccinate but one way or the other the problems they are causing must stop.


----------



## Beaver101

^ There's no denying that everyone will get the flu, Covid and/or both (unless they don't want to participate in society eg. work, shop, etc.). It's just a matter of time. Whether they'll survive either is just a "chance of luck" which is dependent on how robust their immune system is (naturally or boosted). All that upstanding of rights, freedom, supposedly for "society", blah blah blah, is just noise, full of hot air.


----------



## andrewf

diharv said:


> So the other option is to hide forever. Best wishes to those that choose that route. I bet we see news stories years after this is largely over about people who haven't let themselves out of self imposed lockdown.


I'm just disagreeing with the approach that fogging public spaces with omicron would be a good idea. I don't think rampant infection ASAP is a smart approach.


----------



## Beaver101

Her mom died of COVID after attending anti-vaccine rallies. Now this Toronto woman wants to warn others

Looks like someone is interested in the entire story so here it is - with some parts redacted/removed:



> _ *May Warren, Toronto Star news reporter. Feb 9, 2022 *
> 
> Ute Lehrer carried a warning for those gathered at Queen’s Park for Saturday’s Toronto YOU KNOW WHAT protest
> 
> The message, written in black marker on a simple cardboard sign, caught attention online after a photo of Lehrer in the crowd was posted on social media.
> 
> *“My mom died of COVID,” it read, “get vaccinated you idiots.”*
> 
> Lehrer’s mother, an 83-year-old retired pathologist, died late last year in Switzerland. She was unvaccinated. And if she was still alive and had lived in Canada, her daughter believes she would have joined the ruckers (sic) in their protest against COVID-19 vaccine mandates and lockdowns.
> 
> *“She’s a good example of somebody who got brainwashed over the years,” said Lehrer, a York University professor who attended Saturday’s counterprotest at the University of Toronto to support health-care workers.
> 
> “It was very difficult to talk to her about this because she didn’t see it.”
> 
> Despite her medical background, Dr. Ortrud Sonnabend got sucked in by conspiracy theories on social media and Facebook. She frequently travelled around the country from her home in St. Gallen, in northeastern Switzerland, to protest vaccines and masks as a “demonstration tourist,” her daughter said.*
> 
> ...
> 
> Others are still trying to broach the difficult conversations Lehrer has had, with friends and family who are still unvaccinated, although they are a small minority statistically within the country (about 84 per cent of the population has received at least one dose).
> 
> The 61-year-old tried many times to convince her mother, a “determined and strong woman” who balanced an unusual career in medicine for a woman of her generation with raising two children. Sonnabend was born in Berlin before the start of the Second World War and loved sailing, theatre and lively political discussions. Lehrer went to Europe to live with her for a month and got a third shot there to “lead by example,” but nothing worked.
> 
> *Lehrer began to resign herself to the fact that it was just a matter of time before her mother got sick, as “she was playing Russian roulette with her own life.”*
> 
> A few days after a final rally in Zurich in November, Sonnabend started to feel ill, with a cough and fever. She said it was just a cold.
> 
> Weeks later, she was admitted to hospital, where she went downhill fast. Right before she died, Lehrer said she spoke to a nurse and told her she regretted not getting vaccinated.
> 
> As she walked with her husband to the meeting spot for Saturday’s counterprotest, Lehrer passed people heading the other way.
> 
> The irony, she said, is that her mom would have originally been on that side, but now she believes she would have joined her, having had a change of heart on her deathbed.
> 
> “I just felt it’s the right thing to represent her now on this side of the debate and hopefully she agrees with me, wherever she is.”
> 
> ...
> 
> *“I’m very concerned about the political motivation of these people that are behind it,” she said, adding it reminded her of the instability of the1920s in Germany that eventually led to the rise of Hitler.*
> 
> “A lot of people are followers without thinking, so I think that we really need a strong public outcry over this.”
> 
> ...
> 
> Dr. Andrew Boozary, a physician and vaccine equity advocate who was one of the organizers of the counterprotest, captured a photo of Lehrer in the crowd and tweeted it.
> 
> “I was just floored by her sign,” he said, “her courage to come out, to be so open about it.”
> 
> Lehrer saw the photo on Twitter when she got home. After thinking long and hard about it, she identified herself. This led to a conversation online with another person who was in the same situation. One of her students later also approached her about a family member who’s not vaccinated, and asked for her advice.
> 
> Maya Goldenberg, associate professor of philosophy at the University of Guelph and author of the book “Vaccine Hesitancy: Public Trust, Expertise, and the War on Science,” said the way to handle these conversations is “to do it patiently and kindly.”
> 
> “It’s very easy to get frustrated,” she said, and this makes many people defensive.
> 
> ...
> 
> Lehrer agrees that arguments and facts only go so far, and these types of conversations are best approached with “love and care for these people.”
> 
> She hopes that by sharing her personal story, it can perhaps convince one person to avoid making the same choice as her mother._
> 
> *“I think it’s important that people hear the story of somebody who was against vaccination, against masking, and all these things, all these rules,” she said, “but who then at the end, died because of it.”*



Saddest part of another bite-the-dust Covidiot (unvaxxed participant) is the deceased was a retired "pathologist" who got brainwashed by social media conspiracies ... from the mouth of her kid/daughter. Maybe she got too educated, if not experienced enough.

I didn't even see the part about the "political" motive with these anti-vaxxers but then it's obvious when a complete stranger points it out. Talk about who the real Nazis are.


----------



## OptsyEagle

andrewf said:


> I'm just disagreeing with the approach that fogging public spaces with omicron would be a good idea. I don't think rampant infection ASAP is a smart approach.


The future is always a difficult thing to predict but in my opinion the biggest risk we might face is that someone in our society "misses" their ability to get exposure to this Omicron virus.

That may sound illogical, from what we have been doing in the past and all the unknowns surrounding infection, but since we know two things for sure:

1) we are all going to get exposed eventually to some covid variant in the future
2) this virus is endemic and new variants WILL be coming in the future

speeding up our exposures is the most plausible approach to ever ending this pandemic. Delaying the end, increases the time we live with this pandemic, and increased pandemic time will equal increases in severe infections. I won't add what other problems come with the delays that covid restrictions also cause.


----------



## sags

Are there any studies that verify people retain any natural immunity from previous covid infections ?

Do they keep track of the number of re-infections of covid ?


----------



## Beaver101

> ^ *OptsyEagle.*.. speeding up our exposures is the most plausible approach to ever ending this pandemic. Delaying the end, increases the time we live with this pandemic, and increased pandemic time will equal increases in severe infections. I won't add what other problems come with the delays that covid restrictions also cause.


 ... just how do you propose to do that in the name of transparency? Or are the details in the devil ... in which case our health systems will collapse for sure.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Are there any studies that verify people retain any natural immunity from previous covid infections ?
> 
> Do they keep track of the number of re-infections of covid ?


 ... answer for 1st question - I would think so but then I'm not a researcher/virologist.

As for the answer to 2nd question - I would think so too - just look at the long haulers. Would be more interested to see what impact will be upcoming from those studies. Aka "treatment"?


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> That may sound illogical, from what we have been doing in the past and all the unknowns surrounding infection, but since we know two things for sure:
> 
> 1) we are all going to get exposed eventually to some covid variant in the future
> 2) this virus is endemic and new variants WILL be coming in the future


I don't see this as a certainty that all will get covid.


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> I don't see this as a certainty that all will get covid.


Guess depends on what you mean by 'get covid'.
I think it is safe to say that every single person has been exposed to the virus by now. Remember, positivity rate was above 40%


----------



## OptsyEagle

Anyway, what I want us to do will have little bearing on what we actually do, and I am fully aware of that. All I want to do here is attempt to provide a new narrative of what is actually going on and the few options we actually have that are viable long term. What might have been dangerous in the past may very well be our savior in the future. Since the future is difficult to predict precisely that also cannot be guaranteed, only theorized by the current understanding of what we know and have seen so far. As I have said, we still seem to be falling very short currently on plans that actually take us past the end of this pandemic.

As for whether everyone will be exposed to covid or not, I agree a few of us may not ever see covid in our lifetimes. As more and more of us get Omicron exposure, the ability for the last few to obtain it will be much more difficult. If my estimates are correct, herd immunity will start to play out probably in the 70% to 80% range. For those seriously afraid of this virus, and many of you should be, that might be the target group you want to try to be included in. I will caution you on that, however, that if you are part of the lucky few who obtain that exclusion, you will spend most of your future life worrying about covid eventually catching up with you. Every now and then you will hear of another person in your group, getting infected with a dangerous exposure, perhaps from a more virulent new variant, in the future, and you will always wonder when it will find you. Just something to think about.

That said, if you are vulnerable, then wait. Protect yourself. Even if you get it after 80% have already done so, the infectious dose you receive is likely to be much lower if it is provided by those previously infected.


----------



## MK7GTI

Beaver101 said:


> Her mom died of COVID after attending anti-vaccine rallies. Now this Toronto woman wants to warn others
> 
> Above is behind a paywall. If anyone is interested in the entire story, I can post its entirety.
> 
> Saddest part of another bite-the-dust Covidiot (unvaxxed participant) is the deceased was a retired "pathologist" who got brainwashed by social media conspiracies ... from the mouth of her kid/daughter. Maybe she got too educated, if not experienced enough.


That red clown nose you wear each day looks good!


----------



## sags

The politicians had a special debate in Parliament.

This was a perfect opportunity for the CPC to present their arguments of how to handle the pandemic differently.

All they could come up with was........bad Trudeau and remove all restrictions.

Interim leader Candice Bergen laid out the plan in her emails.......blame Trudeau.

It is sad that is the best they could come up with.


----------



## Beaver101

MK7GTI said:


> That red clown nose you wear each day looks good!


 ...better than that brown nose of yours that shows up here every day. 

Go ahead and report my post, crybaby. Scared of the truth?


----------



## damian13ster

Literally every single day more and more countries ditching the segregation passports. 
Czech Republic today.

Canada and China soon to be only ones left


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> The politicians had a special debate in Parliament.
> 
> This was a perfect opportunity for the CPC to present their arguments of how to handle the pandemic differently.
> 
> All they could come up with was........bad Trudeau and remove all restrictions.
> 
> *Interim leader Candice Bergen laid out the plan in her emails.......blame Trudeau.
> 
> It is sad that is the best they could come up with.*


 ... wow, the continued display of competence ... why bother debating when it's the same old same old tactic - blame everyone else except thyself.

I feel for Trudeau having to even "hear" the next tuba-blowing CPC leader.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Guess depends on what you mean by 'get covid'.


Someone that had their body fight off the virus would be a good enough definittion I guess.



damian13ster said:


> I think it is safe to say that every single person has been exposed to the virus by now. Remember, positivity rate was above 40%


Huh? Positivity rate says nothing about the number of people infected, only the percentage of those that tested positive vs negative. (e.g. Test 10 people, 4 positive, 6 negative = 40% positivity rate)


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Literally every single day more and more countries ditching the segregation passports.
> Czech Republic today.
> 
> Canada and China soon to be only ones left


 ... looks like Ontario "Canada" ain't following Alberta and Saskatchewan in scrapping the vax passport anytime soon. I guess Ms. Elliott is alot smarter than she looks.

Health minister says Ontario has no immediate plans to follow Alberta in scrapping vaccine passport system

As for mayor Brown of Brampton, he should consider transferring some Covid-patients from his ward's hospitals over to Alberta and Saskatchewan, anywhere there but here in Ontario. Ontario's overwhelmed healthcare system needs all the help it can get.


----------



## sags

Covid deaths highest in a year as omicron targets the unvaccinated and elderly



_Though considered milder than other coronavirus variants, *omicron has infected so many people that it has driven the number of daily deaths beyond where it was last spring, before vaccines were widely available*, according to Washington Post data.

Omicron has been particularly lethal to people over 75, the unvaccinated and the medically vulnerable, according to doctors and public health officials. The soaring death toll also illustrates why experts pleaded with the public to beware of the highly contagious variant even though it is less virulent than others.

“That feels quite jarring to people who may have assumed omicron is generally on a per-case level less severe and given the fact we have vaccinated at least some portion of the country,” said Jennifer Nuzzo, an epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. “Even if on a per-case basis fewer people develop severe illness and die, when you apply a small percentage to a very large number, you get a substantial number.”_


----------



## OptsyEagle

Time for some simple math. What is better 100 deaths in a month... or...1200 deaths over 2 years. The first one has a higher rate of deaths, the last one has the higher number of deaths. All that is left is for us to pick the best one. It is just math. It really should not be so confusing.

Slowing the spread does not prevent deaths it only spreads them out over a longer, more agonizing amount of time.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Slowing the spread does not prevent deaths it only spreads them out over a longer, more agonizing amount of time.


Two counterpoints to "Slowing the spread does not prevent deaths" ...

better treatments could become available over time (better vaccines and/or active infection treatments).
Higher initial deaths (and/or serious illness) could overwhelm hospitals, in turn causing even more deaths.


----------



## Beaver101

^ The above article (posted by sags) wasn't about math even, simple or complex. Nor about the time factor involved in the math. Only if you actually read or understood the "point(s)" of the article. 

And if you only involve the math aspects, then I would agree with cainvest's counterpoints. But still the gist (aka meaning) of that article is not about "math".


----------



## damian13ster

cainvest said:


> Someone that had their body fight off the virus would be a good enough definittion I guess.
> 
> 
> Huh? Positivity rate says nothing about the number of people infected, only the percentage of those that tested positive vs negative. (e.g. Test 10 people, 4 positive, 6 negative = 40% positivity rate)


I am well aware of what the positivity rate is.
And it is the best estimate of the prevalence of COVID in society (plus waste water studies I get). 
It is pretty hard to argue that if you conduct 20,000 tests a day, of which 40% are positive, you have order of magnitude higher prevalence of the virus in society compared to having 2-3% of tests be positive.
Not sure what one would have been doing for past 2 years not to be exposed to the virus at all. Pretty much impossible.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Two counterpoints to "Slowing the spread does not prevent deaths" ...
> 
> better treatments could become available over time (better vaccines and/or active infection treatments).
> Higher initial deaths (and/or serious illness) could overwhelm hospitals, in turn causing even more deaths.


I am not going to address the dream of better treatments since that falls under the scope of an unpredictable future. What is predictable with that however, is the higher number of deaths that will happen if we give it all the time required for those treatments to be developed. Time is an enemy in itself. People die everyday.

As for the hospitals, I think we can safely say that they are always going to be a concern. Since we cannot increase their capacity AND we cannot take the time to allow the hospitalizations to flow through the system accommodatively, since that time takes too many lives while it is happening, I think the best thing to do is to get the immunity we require to prevent both deaths and hospitalizations, as quickly as we can.

We can toggle a few things like masks and gathering sizes etc. if it gets out of control, but my point remains, waiting has more risks associated with it then full speed ahead. The only difference is that full speed ahead pushes a lot of carnage into a smaller time window and gives the false impression it is not working well. Just give it the short time it requires and you will see that it worked quite well.

Again. I am open to any ideas anyone has to get us past the end of this pandemic, especially ones that reduce death and hospitalizations. The ones that just spread them out over of a much longer period of time, forcing the non-vulnerable to live in highly restrictive ways while we wait, you can just leave those out.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Beaver101 said:


> ^ The above article (posted by sags) wasn't about math even, simple or complex. Nor about the time factor involved in the math. Only if you actually read or understood the "point(s)" of the article.
> 
> And if you only involve the math aspects, then I would agree with cainvest's counterpoints. But still the gist (aka meaning) of that article is not about "math".


It is just math.

_*



number of daily deaths beyond where it was last spring

Click to expand...

*_You take the number of deaths, divide it by the number of days and you get daily deaths. Can you see how that math works?

Omicron creates a quicker death rate, because it spreads so quickly.

Now let me explain where Sags made his mistake in his post:

Deaths per day do not illustrate a viruses severity. It pretty much only explains a viruses infection rate, and we know Omicron has a very high infection rate. Now deaths per infection explains a viruses severity and with Omicron, studies have already proven it possesses a much lower death per infection rate, then most of the previous variants. Therefore, Omicron is a less severe virus...and math explains that.

I hope that helps.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> It is just math.
> 
> You take the number of deaths, divide it by the number of days and you get daily deaths. Can you see how that math works?
> 
> Omicron creates a quicker death rate, because it spreads so quickly.
> 
> Now let me explain where Sags made his mistake in his post:
> 
> Deaths per day do not illustrate a viruses severity. It pretty much only explains a viruses infection rate, and we know Omicron has a very high infection rate. Now deaths per infection explains a viruses severity and with Omicron, studies have already proven it possesses a much lower death per infection rate, then most of the previous variants. Therefore, Omicron is a less severe virus...and math explains that.
> 
> I hope that helps.


 ... maybe math for you which does no service. It's like saying, big deal, number of deaths is the same or your interpretation - which would you prefer - the faster or slower version. Stats here is meaningless.

And so your last paragraph or attempt to re-interpret sag's post does not help. Re-read (re-pasted here) the first 2 pgrphs from his post:

_



Though considered milder than other coronavirus variants, *omicron has infected so many people that it has driven the number of daily deaths beyond where it was last spring, before vaccines were widely available*, according to Washington Post data.

Omicron has been particularly lethal to people over 75, the unvaccinated and the medically vulnerable, according to doctors and public health officials.* The soaring death toll also illustrates why experts pleaded with the public to beware of the highly contagious variant even though it is less virulent than others.*

Click to expand...

 ... _simple gist: don't downplay that Omicron is "less virulent". The highly contagiousness of it makes up for that and some.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> And it is the best estimate of the prevalence of COVID in society


IMO it's the worst so we'll just have to disagree on that.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> I am not going to address the dream of better treatments since that falls under the scope of an unpredictable future. What is predictable with that however, is the higher number of deaths that will happen if we give it all the time required for those treatments to be developed. Time is an enemy in itself. People die everyday.


Sorry but that's just not practical to ignore the potential future. With omicron vaccine tests underway it's wise to see the results, especially since we don't have to wait too long.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Two counterpoints to "Slowing the spread does not prevent deaths" ...
> 
> better treatments could become available over time (better vaccines and/or active infection treatments).
> Higher initial deaths (and/or serious illness) could overwhelm hospitals, in turn causing even more deaths.


Exactly, I put forward that position back at the beginning when we were questioning the possibility of a a vaccine.

We have better treatments now.
My primary concern during the waves was if there would be hospital capacity.

Finally the previous COVID variants have been generally replaced with less lethal variants.

Slowing down that initial, untreatable, hospital overloading, highly lethal variant clearly saved lives.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Sorry but that's just not practical to ignore the potential future. With omicron vaccine tests underway it's wise to see the results, especially since we don't have to wait too long.


Anyway, I already stated why the Omicron vaccines will not get us out of this predicament. The time it will take to test them, and administer them, along with the number of people refusing them even if they work well, which will include all the currently unvaccinated and more from the fully vaccinated group. It becomes quite obvious that they will be a small help at best. They will not have the capacity get us out of this pandemic.

I will attempt to back away now. All I wanted to do is point out why we need to fully open up and why we need to do it sooner, not later. I think sometime in March would be the best time, but a month or so later might not ruin things completely. Everyone should know by now why I believe this to be the best approach and what the vulnerable need to do while it is all going down. I certainly know what I need to do so I will leave it there.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> @james4beach. Whatever happens to our bodies after infection, will happen to our bodies after infection. If you have a better way to avoid covid-19 in an endemic world that it intends to stay in, please let me know. Exposure to this virus cannot be avoided.


This isn't a black and white situation. I think it lacks nuance and shades of grey to say that a person must either (a) hide indoors and avoid society forever or (b) catch covid. Strictly speaking this is true, but it's not the whole story.

I think it's smart to use risk control measures. e.g. staying away from other people when feeling sick or weak, wearing a mask in high-risk settings and airplanes, avoiding crowded events during peak cold/flu season. And when I fly to visit my elderly parents, I wear a mask for 2-3 days, self monitor to evaluate my condition, and gradually drop my guard if I feel perfectly fine. I will continue to do this going forward.

There are two goals of my strategy:

*1. Delay catching covid*. Why? Because treatments and outcomes keep improving. Think about catching covid 1 or 2 years ago versus today. Even ignoring the vaccines, healthcare methods and procedures have improved dramatically. There's still a lot we don't know about covid's long term effects. Additional time delay = more information = safer.

*2. Limit the severity of covid*. Catching a respiratory infection is not a black and white thing. I think we can safely assume that covid shares traits with other cold and flu viruses. You're more likely to catch it when you're run down or stressed for example. _I believe the severity of a covid infection is within our control, by managing our bodies and exercising caution_.


By the way, I think we've all been "exposed" to the virus over the last two years. For example I go out shopping virtually every day, at the very least I go through the lobby and hallways of my building, where other people are around. We have already been controlling the risk, and seeing the benefits of it.


----------



## damian13ster

Honestly, the thing that aggravates me the most is straight up stupidity from those in charge.
What moron came up with idea that you not only need PCR test within 72h, but that test can't be performed in Canada?
How is that person not fired, and legally not allowed to be put in decision-making position ever again?

And why are those completely incoherent rules not stricken the moment semi-intelligent person discovers them?


----------



## james4beach

I just want the government to be clear about encouraging and recommending caution. This can be done through good marketing or public messaging, *but caution and smart behaviour doesn't come naturally to people*. What I don't want is for Public Health to say "restrictions are done, everyone go crazy!"

Unfortunately this is what some provinces said a few months ago. In BC, this was the message last July and boy did people go nuts. The messaging was wrong.

The Public Health message should be: restrictions are being eased because we think you'll probably survive Covid. We suggest you still try to avoid catching it, because it's a nasty illness and some people die from it. Some of you WILL die from it. Here are steps we recommend to reduce your risk. You don't have to live in fear of Covid, and can live your life normally, but you will be safer if you (take the following precautions).


----------



## Saintor

Tuesday, federal PLC (Trudeau) deputy Lightbound called out the ABUSES of the current covid madness & policies.

Sorry, Mr Lightbound did it in French. He still got a huge amount of praise in the anglophone press.
https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2...eclarations-surprenantes-de-joel-lightbound-1
But he scored almost perfect. Despite the fact that he was almost 23 months late (it takes way more time for weaker people, apparently).

Drop everything covid. Like now. More and more countries did it or are doing in the next days. We have been abused enough.


----------



## damian13ster

Its irrelevant. 
Dropping restrictions in June had no effect on wave in September in Alberta.
Same as completely dropping restrictions in Texas in February had no effect on wave in August. 
Those are all seasonal. You didn't see a rise in cases after restrictions were dropped. You saw rise in cases when the season came to have rise in cases. That is precisely what vast majority of studies show - restrictions have no effect.
How do you explain 7 month lag between dropping all restrictions and next wave in Texas? With vases continuing to drop for next 2-3 months after all restrictions were dropped?


----------



## Money172375

Honest question here…….not that I’m anti-lockdown. I think the path Ontario is on with phased reduction of restrictions is sound.

for those that think things are moving too fast and that restrictions should remain well beyond the spring, the question is…..

what exactly are you looking for that would give you comfort to remove all restrictions?

ex. Double digit ICU numbers? vaccines that work? Very effective treatment options?
Vaccines don’t seem to stop spread and that’s still driving some hospitalizations. I’ve read the early treatment and anti-viral options aren’t working as well as planned. 

so do we just wait for the waves to naturally wane? Wait for better scientific options to prevent or cure COVID? Allow some degree of herd immunity? (Although, it seems you can catch a different variant or the same variant over again).

if you were a policy maker, what would be your plan starting now?


----------



## damian13ster

Divide, segregate, wedge, stigmatize.

That's literally the only plan current government has.
No science, no targets, no data. 

The time to lift all restrictions is now. We have been through 4 waves already in over 100 countries. They all show the same. There aren't 'double peaks', waves are seasonal. The time to end all restrictions is the very moment you get through the peak of the wave


----------



## Saintor

For years to come, there will be zillions of articles & books denouncing what happened and about covid ultra-zealots imposed to others... inquisition-style.


----------



## james4beach

Saintor said:


> For ten years and more, there will be zillions of articles & books denouncing what happened


Yes it's truly amazing how some governments completely failed in their duties to protect the public. The Americans being the most glaring example of failure. It's like an enemy invasion where the government sits by and does nothing.

900,000 Americans have died so far. It will easily surpass 1 million this year. An unbelievable death toll, complete failure of government. Meanwhile countries such as New Zealand, Taiwan, South Korea, Iceland, Japan, Singapore and many other actually protected citizens.

Many of those are very dense populated countries! The world needs to study and understand what these countries did. How did they protect their people so well?


----------



## Saintor

james4beach said:


> Yes it's truly amazing how some governments completely failed in their duties to protect the public. The Americans being the most glaring example of failure. It's like an enemy invasion where the government sits by and does nothing.
> 
> 900,000 Americans have died so far. It will easily surpass 1 million this year. An unbelievable death toll, complete failure of government. Meanwhile countries such as New Zealand, Taiwan, South Korea, Iceland, Japan, Singapore and many other actually protected citizens.
> 
> Many of those are very dense populated countries! The world needs to study and understand what these countries did. How did they protect their people so well?


You totally got me wrong.

It would have happened with their abuses or not. Let it flow. let it go is my mantra in THIS CASE. Covid is very volatile, not that grave especially omicron compared to other viruses. I wouldn't say the same about a virus like Ebola... for which I would have a totally different story...

Apparently, it took a while for some people to find their balls, but _they finally did_. 








England 'to become first in WORLD' to be fully free of Covid rules


Boris Johnson has piled the pressure on Nicola Sturgeon and Mark Drakeford to scrap the last Covid curbs after the PM announced his intention to axe all virus restrictions in England in two weeks.




www.dailymail.co.uk





So pissed off that it didn't happen before...


----------



## s1231

Well, the world is moving toward this way,
start preparing + strengthen own health condition will have a benefit.

more raw data will be accessible to public soon.
Then, it may lead us to the real solution+valuable discussion.









Fauci says ‘full-blown’ pandemic in US nearly over, as England to scrap quarantines


Biden's medical adviser says new treatments and vaccines will make virus 'more manageable'; UK's Johnson says measure to ditch isolations will only take effect if infections low




www.timesofisrael.com




Speaking with the Financial Times, Anthony Fauci expressed hope that most pandemic-related measures and restrictions will be lifted in the coming months, including mandatory face masks. He also said that new medical treatments, vaccines and prior infection will make the pathogen “more manageable.”

“As we get out of the full-blown pandemic phase of COVID-19, which we are certainly heading out of, these decisions will increasingly be made on a local level rather than centrally decided or mandated,” he said.

“There will also be more people making their own decisions on how they want to deal with the virus.”

Fauci said that he hopes all COVID-19 restrictions will be halted by the end of 2022, including mandatory mask-wearing.


----------



## Money172375

When out to dinner last night with a small group of friends. One of those smaller, but national chain causal dining places.

the dining area was completely empty. The bar section had 3 groups including ours. about a dozen people total. Yes, it was a weeknight, but there doesn’t seem to be demand for in-person dining that the loosening of restrictions allows. I think it won’t be until spring when the patios open that they see some better numbers.

just in time for the NHL playoffs.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I would expect your group got A++ service and the waiter/waitress to get a bigger (aka more than 20%) than usual tip.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Money172375 said:


> Honest question here…….not that I’m anti-lockdown. I think the path Ontario is on with phased reduction of restrictions is sound.
> 
> for those that think things are moving too fast and that restrictions should remain well beyond the spring, the question is…..
> 
> what exactly are you looking for that would give you comfort to remove all restrictions?


I have been asking that question here multiple times and few give any complete answer. The unfortuneate issue here is that there is no clear right answer and definitely no answer that results in nobody dying, or that our hospitals don't have some chance that they might collapse.

I will, however, point out a couple things for people to ponder. I doubt I will receive any argument that the main problem coming from Omicron is its very high infection rate. That characteristic is a double edge sword offering opportunity as well. Since it cannot help but infect both non-vulnerable and very vulnerable people, it cannot help but send a number of them to the hospital or grave from its high infection rate. The benefit from it however, is it cannot also avoid inoculating a tremendous number of people, who will recover, at an incredibly quit rate, offering us our best opportunity to move out of this pandemic, once and for all. So the main issue as always, comes down to how many people can we expect to need hospitalization and how many deaths will also result after that.

Since we do not know the true number of infections, estimating hospitalizations is very difficult. We do know, however, the following facts:

*1) About 85% of our population has been vaccinated, with almost half of them with a 3rd dose
2) We know that vaccination provided very high protection from hospitalization and death when it was tested against the Delta Variant.
3) We also know that a person with 2 doses of vaccine had a 74% additional reduction in their chances of hospitalization with Omicron, when compared to Delta (see Imp. College of London study).*

So from all that we can safely say that a person, with vaccine running through their vanes, has incredible protection from hospitalization with this current variant (Omicron).

We also DON'T have a very good handle on how many Omicron hospitalizations and deaths we have seen in Canada. We know Omicron swept through quickly but it did not become dominant in Canada until around the time we all sat down for our Christmas dinners. So the vast majority of hospitalizations, in the first couple weeks of January would probably have been the result of Delta infections, which we know is much more severe...but also know is pretty much gone.

We also DON'T really know how many of our hospitalizations were the result of infection or were simply the result of someone needing hospitalization, and just happen to be benignly infected with Omicron at the time. If we subtract out the covid hospitalizations, where the person was admitted for other reasons then covid, we see those hospitalizations dropping by almost 50%. I am not saying these hospitalizations do not put stress on our hospital system, but they don't relate directly to how severe Omicron actually is.

I think the most telling number above is the high protection against Delta, our vaccines provided, and then adding an additional 74% reduction in hospitalizations on top of that. That tells us that for the vast majority of Canadians, this virus is very benign.

As for the unvaccinated. They do continue to be a problem. I noticed that as our covid sick are being released from the hospital, the vaccinated seem to be the ones going home and the unvaccinated seem to be the ones remaining for an extended stay. That is being observed by the ratio of unvaccinated to vaccinated, increasing considerably over the last week or so. I really wish they would do their country a solid and vaccinate, but I think our hospitals should be able to accommodate them either way.


----------



## Beaver101

> Money172375 said:





> ...
> what exactly are you looking for that would give you comfort to* remove all restrictions?*


 ... my answer to Money's question is simple: Zero as in "0", "zilch", "no" Covid (naturally acquired or not, vaxxed or not) patient in the ICU. 

Basically, a guarantee of no infection of Covid for anyone. Unless there's an absolute proven treatment/cure of this disease.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Well we are never going to get that. To me, the best time to move forward is when high odds of success are in our favour. Please, just look at the opportunity that is being presented to us right now:

*1) 85% vaccination rates in Canada, providing incredibly high protection against severe outcomes with Omicron.

2) 43% 3rd dose recent vaccination rates, mostly obtained by our older age groups and most vulnerable

3) Unvaccinated mostly include younger age groups.  Only 0.34% of Ontario citizens remain unvaccinated that are age 60 or older, as I write this post.

4) Omicron variant is not dangerous to the vast majority of Canadians. That has been proven. It is just very infectious, that could provide pandemic ending inoculations for everyone very quickly, if we don't hesitate too long.

5) Warmer weather is coming to a town near you very, very soon. We don't want to waste any of it. It does not hang around long enough to do that.*

Do we really want to lose any of those opportunities, that I listed above, in order to wait for some possible treatments that might or might not come forward. Or for an Omicron vaccine that we know too many people will refuse anyway, even if it is effective and we don't even know that.

My suggestion. *Open up slowly till mid March and then remove all covid restrictions*. Give the vulnerable some strong warnings and advice, and of course, anyone worried about this can wear a mask wherever they want, for as long as they want.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Yes it's truly amazing how some governments completely failed in their duties to protect the public. The Americans being the most glaring example of failure. It's like an enemy invasion where the government sits by and does nothing.
> 
> 900,000 Americans have died so far. It will easily surpass 1 million this year. An unbelievable death toll, complete failure of government. Meanwhile countries such as New Zealand, Taiwan, South Korea, Iceland, Japan, Singapore and many other actually protected citizens.
> 
> Many of those are very dense populated countries! The world needs to study and understand what these countries did. How did they protect their people so well?


The US death rate by state looks like a GDP/Density graph, poor and high density states had more deaths.


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> 4) Omicron variant is not dangerous to the vast majority of Canadians. That has been proven. It is just very infectious, that could provide pandemic ending inoculations for everyone very quickly, if we don't hesitate too long.


Covid in general is not dangerous to the vast majority of Canadians, but it's still an issue. People keep saying that Omicron is mild, but mild compared to what? Mild compared to delta? Okay, but still as severe as the alpha variant that was responsible for the first wave. Challenges in Inferring Intrinsic Severity of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron Variant | NEJM. The only reasons why it both seems to be less severe, and we still see increased numbers of ICU hospitalizations is because of high vaccination and increased infectiousness. Also, Omicron has shown to re-infect, so once you get it, you are still susceptible.

Just some Omicron myths to look at: The Omicron variant: sorting fact from myth



OptsyEagle said:


> My suggestion. *Open up slowly till mid March and then remove all covid restrictions*. Give the vulnerable some strong warnings and advice, and of course, anyone worried about this can wear a mask wherever they want, for as long as they want.


You realize that is actually what is going on right? Restrictions being gradually lifted depending on the changing situation? If indicators are favorable, then we see some loosening of restrictions. Now what happens if there is another variant and another wave swamps the ICUs? It's one thing if we have a new steady-state and need to permanently increase beds (that includes staff), but another if you start seeing large periodic waves.


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> Covid in general is not dangerous to the vast majority of Canadians, but it's still an issue. People keep saying that Omicron is mild, but mild compared to what? Mild compared to delta? Okay, but still as severe as the alpha variant that was responsible for the first wave. Challenges in Inferring Intrinsic Severity of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron Variant | NEJM. The only reasons why it both seems to be less severe, and we still see increased numbers of ICU hospitalizations is because of high vaccination and increased infectiousness. Also, Omicron has shown to re-infect, so once you get it, you are still susceptible.
> 
> Just some Omicron myths to look at: The Omicron variant: sorting fact from myth
> 
> 
> 
> You realize that is actually what is going on right? Restrictions being gradually lifted depending on the changing situation? If indicators are favorable, then we see some loosening of restrictions. Now what happens if there is another variant and another wave swamps the ICUs? It's one thing if we have a new steady-state and need to permanently increase beds (that includes staff), but another if you start seeing large periodic waves.


I am banking on Omicron being reinfectious, so to speak. We need that in order to safely expose our vulnerable citizens to a safer infectious dose of covid, by getting it from a recovered person as opposed to someone not previously exposed to Omicron. An exposure they can hopefully deal with better then the bigger variety doses going around now from both fully vaccinated and unvaccinated. Since it is unlikely to as transmissible from an Omicron recovery then a non-omicron recovery, when measured in viral dose transmitted and total time they would be able to transmit the virus, it offers us our best chance at a herd immunity like ending.

By severity, I am specifically talking about severe outcome per infection. I agree the Omicron variant is probably close to the same severity of the original variant, but when measured by severe outcome per infection Omicron would be magnitudes safer then the original. This is solely due to the fact that as a virus becomes more infectious the ratio of benign outcomes (mild or asymptomatic) compared to severe outcomes (hosp. and death) increases dramatically.

In other words, for us to create the herd immunity we need with Omicron, the number of severe outcomes will be magnitudes lower then what would happen from the the original variant, mainly because the original variant did not create the same number of safer infections for each dangerous one.

I am aware of what we are doing in the country, with respect to restrictions, and I agree, so far everything is looking OK. I was mainly responding to people on this board who seem to think we are moving too fast. We are not. Probably about right or a little on the slow side.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> Well we are never going to get that. To me, the best time to move forward is when high odds of success are in our favour. Please, just look at the opportunity that is being presented to us right now:
> 
> *1) 85% vaccination rates in Canada, providing incredibly high protection against severe outcomes with Omicron.
> 
> 2) 43% 3rd dose recent vaccination rates, mostly obtained by our older age groups and most vulnerable
> 
> 3) Unvaccinated mostly include younger age groups.  Only 0.34% of Ontario citizens remain unvaccinated that are age 60 or older, as I write this post.
> 
> 4) Omicron variant is not dangerous to the vast majority of Canadians. That has been proven. It is just very infectious, that could provide pandemic ending inoculations for everyone very quickly, if we don't hesitate too long.
> 
> 5) Warmer weather is coming to a town near you very, very soon. We don't want to waste any of it. It does not hang around long enough to do that.*
> 
> Do we really want to lose any of those opportunities, that I listed above, in order to wait for some possible treatments that might or might not come forward. Or for an Omicron vaccine that we know too many people will refuse anyway, even if it is effective and we don't even know that.
> 
> My suggestion. *Open up slowly till mid March and then remove all covid restrictions*. Give the vulnerable some strong warnings and advice, and of course, anyone worried about this can wear a mask wherever they want, for as long as they want.


 ... you can calculate all the odds or ask for all the high of odds to work in our favour. If there's a new variant (or worst another type of infectious disease) that comes about causing a "surge" on the population, overwhelming the hospital, you can be sure we'll move backwards before we can eagerly move forward. 

Call me pessimistic all you want but then I wasn't (and I'm certain alot of other folks weren't either) expecting to see a pandemic in my (and their) lifetime. Never say never. 

So first step is let's start with a declaration that the "current=Covid19" pandemic is over, before we get ahead of ourselves.


----------



## james4beach

bgc_fan said:


> Covid in general is not dangerous to the vast majority of Canadians, but it's still an issue. People keep saying that Omicron is mild, but mild compared to what? Mild compared to delta? Okay, but still as severe as the alpha variant that was responsible for the first wave.


Yeah I don't want us to lose sight of the fact that Covid is still very dangerous and deadly. Just look at the national death number: we matched the previous all time high in deaths from earlier waves.

Deaths are concentrated among people over 70 and people with pre-existing conditions (at any age).

I think it's irresponsible to relax restrictions broadly when so many people are still dying from covid. At the very least we must keep mandatory indoor masks during cold & flu season (that's now) and limit the size of mass indoor events. When I go to stores, I hear people coughing and sneezing. If they weren't wearing masks they would be infecting everyone in the store.


----------



## james4beach

I think those of you getting excited about "opening everything" are also forgetting another important factor. It's not government that ultimately calls the shots here, it's the virus.

If a variant shows up tomorrow, breaks through existing vaccination (very likely) and is more deadly, *then we are shutting everything down whether you like it or not.*

Why? Because at a certain point it's out of the government's hands. So the question is whether you want to -- yet again -- get the public's hopes up with all this talk of opening everything and relaxing restrictions, only to yet again pull the rug out from under everyone if this situation arises.

This is one reason I really hate this idea of implying that everything is fine now. It's NOT fine. We are not out of the woods. But by constantly oscillating this public health and travel policy, all it does is frustrate everyone, cause anger, confusion.

How can people not learn from the past? This is exactly what got Ontario and Manitoba into trouble before. Premature openings. Thinking everything is fine, telling the public there is no need for caution.

Didn't y'all learn this from before?

Instead we should be pursuing a policy of ongoing caution, and only very gradual easing of restrictions (baby steps) WITHOUT telling the public that everything is fine. The current policy direction is a huge gamble. Yes I hope the next variant isn't very dangerous, but we don't know. If it turns out to be significantly more dangerous, or entirely breaks through vaccination (very likely given the trend) then we might have to shut everything down again.

And boy will people hate that. The only thing that's worse than restrictions is constantly whip-sawing people between restrictions / everything is fine / restrictions/ back to normal / lock down hard / pandemic is over / lock down hard.


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> I am banking on Omicron being reinfectious, so to speak. We need that in order to safely expose our vulnerable citizens to a safer infectious dose of covid, by getting it from a recovered person as opposed to someone not previously exposed to Omicron.


So no. You keep repeating the same "have a covid party" and get people infected strategy. Remember Omicron is as severe as the original version which was deadly enough. You've fallen in the trap of thinking that it's mild. It's the same severity that caused the first wave. And we've seen that getting covid a second time is not always pleasant.



OptsyEagle said:


> By severity, I am specifically talking about severe outcome per infection. I agree the Omicron variant is probably close to the same severity of the original variant, but when measured by severe outcome per infection Omicron would be magnitudes safer then the original. This is solely due to the fact that as a virus becomes more infectious the ratio of benign outcomes (mild or asymptomatic) compared to severe outcomes (hosp. and death) increases dramatically.


Nope, the only reason why it's "safer" is because the majority of the people are vaccinated and protected from the severe illness. It has nothing to do with the idea that Omicron is a safer variant or that you believe this idea that more infectious means more benign.



OptsyEagle said:


> In other words, for us to create the herd immunity we need with Omicron, the number of severe outcomes will be magnitudes lower then what would happen from the the original variant, mainly because the original variant did not create the same number of safer infections for each dangerous one.


You're working with faulty logic. You already know that it's as severe as the original, not less severe, and the only reason why it's not as "bad" is because the majority of the people are vaccinated. Expose omicron to unvaccincated people with comorbidities and you'll soon see that it's not a mild strain. There's a reason why the USA is seeing death peaks just as high as the first wave despite having access to vaccines. It spreads out faster so more of the unvaccinated are getting exposed.


----------



## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> I think it's irresponsible to relax restrictions broadly when so many people are still dying from covid. At the very least we must keep mandatory indoor masks during cold & flu season (that's now) and limit the size of mass indoor events. When I go to stores, I hear people coughing and sneezing. If they weren't wearing masks they would be infecting everyone in the store.


Personally, I'd probably keep wearing masks for the foreseeable future when in public settings like malls and such. I mean, the death rate is trending downwards, so there is that to support *gradual* loosening of restrictions. And I mean gradual. We've seen what happens with you drop everything to have the "Best Summer ever" followed by the "Worst Fall/Winter ever".


----------



## damian13ster

What is the argument for opening up slowly instead of dropping all restrictions right away?
We have been through 3-4 waves in 150+ countries. You will not find many that have double peaks, etc.
There is no reason to open slowly. Once you are over a peak, which we are, everything needs to be opened right away


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> So no. You keep repeating the same "have a covid party" and get people infected strategy. Remember Omicron is as severe as the original version which was deadly enough. You've fallen in the trap of thinking that it's mild. It's the same severity that caused the first wave. And we've seen that getting covid a second time is not always pleasant.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, the only reason why it's "safer" is because the majority of the people are vaccinated and protected from the severe illness. It has nothing to do with the idea that Omicron is a safer variant or that you believe this idea that more infectious means more benign.
> 
> 
> 
> You're working with faulty logic. You already know that it's as severe as the original, not less severe, and the only reason why it's not as "bad" is because the majority of the people are vaccinated. Expose omicron to unvaccincated people with comorbidities and you'll soon see that it's not a mild strain. There's a reason why the USA is seeing death peaks just as high as the first wave despite having access to vaccines. It spreads out faster so more of the unvaccinated are getting exposed.


I am sure you and I will go back and forth on this, many times, and neither one of us will ever agree with each other, but Omicron is more mild then the original variant when measured properly, by severe outcome per infection. That has to do with the magnitudes more benign infections Omicron produces for every severe one, when compared to the same thing with the original variant. When you then superimpose vaccination on top of that reduced severity it becomes even more mild. That said, of course it can be dangerous to some. I imagine the guy that died from it today would fully agree with your opinion, but for every voter like that you produce you know I can produce 1000s and 1000s of counter observations by people that had a pretty mild experience. That is what I am saying.

We are not going to get through this without some carnage, but we are getting carnage right now doing nothing but hiding. It is time to take the mildness of this variant, no matter what causes it and use it to our advantage...before a new variant comes along that might be too severe for us to have the same success. We have warmer weather coming and everything else going for us. Let's you and I not confuse everyone and have them all shaking at home and delaying this exposure process. It has to happen and the best time we have seen so far is now.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> What is the argument for opening up slowly instead of dropping all restrictions right away?
> We have been through 3-4 waves in 150+ countries. You will not find many that have double peaks, etc.
> There is no reason to open slowly. Once you are over a peak, which we are, everything needs to be opened right away


 ... the answer to your question is within your post "3-4 waves" - does that mean nothing? Have you learned anything in the past 2 years?


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> I am sure you and I will go back and forth on this, many times, and neither one of us will ever agree with each other, but Omicron is more mild then the original variant when measured properly, by severe outcome per infection.


We will, simply because you haven't actually provided this proof that Omicron is more mild than the original variant, while I provided a link to a study that pointed out it is just as severe. Like I said, you have a confounding variable about vaccination and thinking that means it's more mild.


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> We will, simply because you haven't actually provided this proof that Omicron is more mild than the original variant, while I provided a link to a study that pointed out it is just as severe. Like I said, you have a confounding variable about vaccination and thinking that means it's more mild.


If you haven't noticed the incredibly large number of asymptomatic and mild infections by now, I don't know what to say. I mean Ontario estimated 1.4M to 4 million Omicron infections in December and January alone. How many of those ended up in the hospital or even the grave? Did the original variant show those kind of differences between mild and severe? No.

It appears the various governments, in Canada and around the world, have noticed the mildness of the variant as well. It is hard to miss, and what does it matter whether it's mildness comes directly from the variant or vaccination? These governments will do what they will do and what you or I think about it will have no bearing. I have also noticed that opinions on a message board have never been quick to change. I just thought I would point out some interesting and very positive things I have been seeing. I will let everyone do with that what they like.

Thanks for your input.


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> If you haven't noticed the incredibly large number of asymptomatic and mild infections by now, I don't know what to say. I mean Ontario estimated 1.4M to 4 million Omicron infections in December and January alone. How many of those ended up in the hospital or even the grave? Did the original variant show those kind of differences between mild and severe? No.
> 
> It appears the various governments, in Canada and around the world, have noticed the mildness of the variant as well. It is hard to miss, and what does it matter whether it's mildness comes directly from the variant or vaccination? These governments will do what they will do and what you or I think about it will have no bearing. I have also noticed that opinions on a message board have never been quick to change. I just thought I would point out some interesting and very positive things I have been seeing. I will let everyone do with that what they like.
> 
> Thanks for your input.


I already said it was due to the prevalence of high vaccination rate, but the fact that you seem to ignore that is the issue. Not all the infections were by unvaccinated people, which is what you can't seem to grasp. You know, the fact that vaccines work. But whatever.


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> I already said it was due to the prevalence of high vaccination rate, but the fact that you seem to ignore that is the issue. Not all the infections were by unvaccinated people, which is what you can't seem to grasp. You know, the fact that vaccines work. But whatever.


I also said that I don't care where *the mild aspect of this variant* comes from. That is the MOST important point, is it not? Whether we both agree with the other aspects of my logic is not nearly as important as that.

If I recall your main point was that it is not mild, using some article or study you found to justify that opinion. Since people can still die from this virus it is hard to argue that it does not pose any danger at all, so I am not going to dispute the article. My point solely surrounds the fact that right now we have the MOST mild infections per severe infections that we have ever seen since this pandemic started, rendering it more mild in comparison. Let's use that to our advantage. Millions and millions of safe exposures that will go along with the few that become troublesome. Sorry I can't find an article that expels what is right in front of all of us to see. *Just the fact that the vaccines use to protect against infection AND severe outcome, with older variants, and now with Omicron, they (2 doses) mainly only protect against severe outcome and don't protect against infection, must tell you that what I am saying is has to be true.* Omicron offers way more mild infections compared to every severe one. Those mild infections can be pandemic ending exposures.

If you have another way to get out of this mess, that does not just delay whatever number of severe infections will come eventually from everyone's eventual exposure, please let us know. I just don't want to burn through the warm weather while you are reading more studies, is all I am saying. This virus, right now, poses very little danger to the vast majority of our population (+99%) and I believe by using warmer weather exposure, our hospitals can handle that small decimal percentage that is left in danger. Most of those people are fairly unhealthy to begin with and I imagine Covid is certainly not their only problem. Let's not delay the lives of millions of Canadians for very little gain. It is time to move forward.


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## OptsyEagle

Look everyone. To make my point perfectly clear. If Omicron had of been the very first variant that showed up on our planet AND our bodies had the immunity that the current vaccines have given us, I seriously doubt that we would have gone into pandemic mode in the first place. It would have been obvious, as it is now, that the rate of death per infection would have been way too low to make such a drastic step. We would have had some hospital struggles but it all would have looked like a very bad flu season.

If that is the case, and it is, why are we still in pandemic mode now? I believe it is solely based on fear, caution, uncertainty and the fact that we have all got a little too use to the pandemic way of life. There will never be absolute certainty. That will only come when we look back at it all. Some mistakes will be made, that is rarely avoided, but there is little doubt in my mind, that the evidence we see today is telling us that it is time to reduce the covid restrictions all the way to none at all, very soon.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> Look everyone. To make my point perfectly clear. *If Omicron had of been the very first variant that* showed up on our planet AND our bodies had the immunity that the current vaccines have given us, we would not have gone into pandemic mode in the first place. ...


 ... which planet are you referring to? The parallel earth? The pandemic is still on in the "real" one, roman year 2022, month February. I can't wait for Ontario's Family Day.


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> *Just the fact that the vaccines use to protect against infection AND severe outcome, with older variants, and now with Omicron, they (2 doses) mainly only protect against severe outcome and don't protect against infection, must tell you that what I am saying is has to be true.* Omicron offers way more mild infections compared to every severe one. Those mild infections can be pandemic ending exposures.


No, it doesn't. What you are saying is supposition and your opinion. You leave vaccination out of the equation and you'd see that the current situation and omicron wave would have been a lot worse than any other wave. The fact that even in Canada, the omicron wave had comparable death rates as the first wave should be a clue that it does not offer more mild infections. It's only the fact that vaccines made the situation ONLY as bad as previous waves.

So the idea that we start having covid parties and infecting the unvaccinated would not be the best choice.


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> No, it doesn't. What you are saying is supposition and your opinion. You leave vaccination out of the equation and you'd see that the current situation and omicron wave would have been a lot worse than any other wave. The fact that even in Canada, the omicron wave had comparable death rates as the first wave should be a clue that it does not offer more mild infections. It's only the fact that vaccines made the situation ONLY as bad as previous waves.
> 
> So the idea that we start having covid parties and infecting the unvaccinated would not be the best choice.


Not when you compare that death rate to the actual number of infections that took place. When you measure death rate by death rate per infection this variant is quite mild. If you are waiting until no one ever dies to say a virus is benign then we will be waiting a very, very long time indeed. If you need proof of what I am saying, just look at 2 charts, one illustrating cases and the other deaths, of any jurisdiction, and look at the different peak heights of the previous waves compared to the recent Omicron wave. If you match up the case heights on the charts, you will see the death peaks, from Omicron, wayyyy lower then what the previous variant/waves produced.

Lastly, why would you remove vaccination from our situation. I am not trying to prove the point that Omicron is more mild then previous variants, without vaccination anymore. Even though it is, I will let you have that one out of default and just place my arguments on the fact that now, with all the vaccination we have administered, and it is a lot, this Omicron variant is too mild for us to maintain any covid restrictions after March.


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## sags

A new study shows that many of the people who had covid have suffered long term damage to their heart and cardiovascular systems.

Doctors don't understand the reasons why the virus is causing so many different problems.

They say the difference between people who suffered minor or no symptoms is only slighter lower than people with high risk factors or suffered severe symptoms.

The Omicron variants is not "mild" and getting it creates risk for future health problems.


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> Lastly, why would you remove vaccination from our situation. I am not trying to prove the point that Omicron is more mild then previous variants, without vaccination anymore. Even though it is, I will let you have that one out of default and just place my arguments on the fact that now, with all the vaccination we have administered, and it is a lot, this Omicron variant is too mild for us to maintain any covid restrictions after March.


The reason why I remove vaccination from the situation is that there are still a percentage of the population who are unvaccinated and that it is irresponsible to keep stating that Omicron is mild. It, and any covid variant (so far) is mild to those who are VACCINATED. By feeding the narrative that it is mild encourages the unvaccinated to stay unvaccinated because it's only the cold in their minds. Here are some news articles pointing out that the only reason why it is "mild" is because the people who get omicron are vaccinated or have some immunity due to previous infection. Those who don't have such defence still have a much greater chance of serious illness.








Is Omicron really milder than other COVID-19 variants? It's complicated


Omicron is better at slipping around vaccine-induced immunity, but vaccines are still effective against severe disease, meaning the shots are blunting its…




nationalpost.com












Omicron’s Surprising Anatomy Explains Why It Is Wildly Contagious


Specific mutations hide the COVID-causing variant from the immune system and give it a new route into more cells




www.scientificamerican.com












South Africa says vaccines and natural immunity are limiting latest Covid wave


Global experts fear countries with older and more vulnerable populations may have different experience of Omicron variant




www.theguardian.com





I mean if your thought is, screw the unvaccinated, they had their chance let them possibly get seriously ill, sure keep spreading the myth that it's more mild and that it's safe to catch to get your immunity.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> A new study shows that many of the people who had covid have suffered long term damage to their heart and cardiovascular systems.
> 
> Doctors don't understand the reasons why the virus is causing so many different problems.
> 
> They say the difference between people who suffered minor or no symptoms is only slighter lower than people with high risk factors or suffered severe symptoms.
> 
> The Omicron variants is not "mild" and getting it creates risk for future health problems.


 ... some members of this forum like to play doctors, scientists, virologists or epidemiologists. The easiest is being a predictor of the future.

Edit: Added a couple more specific occs. above.


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> The reason why I remove vaccination from the situation is that there are still a percentage of the population who are unvaccinated and that it is irresponsible to keep stating that Omicron is mild. It, and any covid variant (so far) is mild to those who are VACCINATED. By feeding the narrative that it is mild encourages the unvaccinated to stay unvaccinated because it's only the cold in their minds. Here are some news articles pointing out that the only reason why it is "mild" is because the people who get omicron are vaccinated or have some immunity due to previous infection. Those who don't have such defence still have a much greater chance of serious illness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Omicron really milder than other COVID-19 variants? It's complicated
> 
> 
> Omicron is better at slipping around vaccine-induced immunity, but vaccines are still effective against severe disease, meaning the shots are blunting its…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron’s Surprising Anatomy Explains Why It Is Wildly Contagious
> 
> 
> Specific mutations hide the COVID-causing variant from the immune system and give it a new route into more cells
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scientificamerican.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> South Africa says vaccines and natural immunity are limiting latest Covid wave
> 
> 
> Global experts fear countries with older and more vulnerable populations may have different experience of Omicron variant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean if your thought is, screw the unvaccinated, they had their chance let them possibly get seriously ill, sure keep spreading the myth that it's more mild and that it's safe to catch to get your immunity.


You and all your studies and articles. Don't get me wrong. Your articles are fine. Most of them have some really good nuggets of information in them. If I could give you any advice, however, is that what you want to start doing is reading a little more of them. Not just their conclusions, but all the other valuable observations, they offer. Then, add to that, the other 5 or 10 studies and daily covid reports you have read in the recent past and then try to put them all together in your mind. By doing that you can start getting a good picture, in your mind, of what is truly happening.

If you want you can wait until someone smarter then you does that for you and posts another study or article, but by doing it that way you waste valuable time and fall critically behind and quite a large number of these observations and conclusions are quite easy to bring together.

Anyway, I don't intend to screw anyone, including the unvaccinated or even the vulnerable. They will get exposed eventually, so there is very little I can do to add to that, except perhaps providing them a society with a lot more natural protection, then what we will have if all we do is keep hiding and reading more studies and articles.


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> You and all your studies and articles. Don't get me wrong. Your articles are fine. Most of them have some really good nuggets of information in them. If I could give you any advice, however, is that what you want to start doing is reading a little more of them. Not just their conclusions, but all the other valuable observations, they offer. Then, add to that, the other 5 or 10 studies and daily covid reports you have read in the recent past and then try to put them all together in your mind. By doing that you can start getting a good picture, in your mind, of what is truly happening.
> 
> If you want you can wait until someone smarter then you does that for you and posts another study or article, but by doing it that way you waste valuable time and fall critically behind and quite a large number of these observations and conclusions are quite easy to bring together.
> 
> Anyway, I don't intend to screw anyone, including the unvaccinated or even the vulnerable. They will get exposed eventually, so there is very little I can do to add to that, except perhaps providing them a society with a lot more natural protection, then what we will have if all we do is keep hiding and reading more studies and articles.


That's fine, you do you, but don't try to minimize the danger of omicron by saying that it's a mild virus. Obviously you aren't interpreting the data correctly because you think it's only mild based on the experiences of vaccinated people.

No you are screwing the unvaccinated and vulnerable by downplaying it saying that it's mild, just go catch omicron, you'll be good, no need to vaccinate. Meanwhile, unvaccinated people show up in the ICU at greater rates than vaccinated. Yet, you think I'm the one who doesn't have a good picture.


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## damian13ster

"greater rates than vaccinated" - so what? If they show up at a rate of 3/100,000 vs 0.3/100,000 then you can go with sensationism and shout from the rooftops 'you are 10x more likely to get in ICU!!!!'
or you can go with correct headline 'you have 0.00003 chance of ending up in ICU'.

Both statements are factually correct.

And there is a question that Trudeau is incapable of answering.
Do we keep up the hate speech, division, segregation, restrictions, stigmatization until 100% of Canadians including toddlers are vaccinated?


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## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> "greater rates than vaccinated" - so what? If they show up at a rate of 3/100,000 vs 0.3/100,000 then you can go with sensationism and shout from the rooftops 'you are 10x more likely to get in ICU!!!!'
> or you can go with correct headline 'you have 0.00003 chance of ending up in ICU'.
> 
> *Both statements are factually correct.*


 ... that's not the gist of the message there - the unvaxxeds don't need to be in the ICU when there's a method of prevention.


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> That's fine, you do you, but don't try to minimize the danger of omicron by saying that it's a mild virus. Obviously you aren't interpreting the data correctly because you think it's only mild based on the experiences of vaccinated people.
> 
> No you are screwing the unvaccinated and vulnerable by downplaying it saying that it's mild, just go catch omicron, you'll be good, no need to vaccinate. Meanwhile, unvaccinated people show up in the ICU at greater rates than vaccinated. Yet, you think I'm the one who doesn't have a good picture.


You're reading a lot into what I said that I think even you know is not there. I think I pointed out that in Ontario today less then 0.34% of its population remain unvaccinated that are age 60 or older. The vast majority of the unvaccinated are in the younger age groups and lastly, I have pleaded with them many times, as have all of us to vaccinate. So please don't dump there outcomes on me. That said, I don't think they are going to cause us nearly the problem going forward, that they did in the past, with respect to hospitalizations, especially if we can move fast and not lose the opportunity that the warmer summer weather offers. If the unvaccinated are worried about reopening I do have a suggestion for them to help them through it.

Omicron is milder. We can agree to disagree on that, if you like. On a similar viral load looking at one person infected with Omicron and one person infected with the original variant, I will not argue with you on your point. But, in the world where we have millions of people, a virus as infectious as Omicron, with many magnitudes higher infection rate then the original, it cannot help but produce way more benign infections for every dangerous one it generates. On that point, and that is the one that will matter when it comes to ending this pandemic through community exposure, Omicron is seriously less severe then any that have come before it.


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## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> Omicron is milder. We can agree to disagree on that, if you like.


We'll disagree and end the conversation at that. That statement is patently not true, but if you like feeding misinformation, I can't stop you.

Edit: That's your opinion, not fact.


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## Saintor

bgc_fan said:


> We'll disagree and end the conversation at that. That statement is patently not true, but if you like feeding misinformation, I can't stop you.
> 
> Edit: That's your opinion, not fact.


It is more contagious and milder, yes that is a fact. It is the way out of this covid madness, same route that the spanish flu 1918 followed.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> We'll disagree and end the conversation at that. That statement is patently not true, but if you like feeding misinformation, I can't stop you.
> 
> Edit: That's your opinion, not fact.


You just expressed your opinion as well, not fact.

One fact is that you will never get to 100% of Canadians vaccinated - never. 
Do you keep restrictions, segregation, hate, division in place forever?
What are the metrics that are being followed? What are the thresholds that need to be reached to remove restrictions and mandates? It has been 2 years and people in charge have no plan


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> "greater rates than vaccinated" - so what? If they show up at a rate of 3/100,000 vs 0.3/100,000 then you can go with sensationism and shout from the rooftops 'you are 10x more likely to get in ICU!!!!'
> or you can go with correct headline 'you have 0.00003 chance of ending up in ICU'.
> 
> Both statements are factually correct.
> 
> And there is a question that Trudeau is incapable of answering.
> Do we keep up the hate speech, division, segregation, restrictions, stigmatization until 100% of Canadians including toddlers are vaccinated?


Or you can use actual numbers with your supposition of 10x less likely to be in the ICU.






Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca




Right now in Ontario there are 118 unvaccinated and 158 vaccinated. If everyone was vaccinated, that would reduce the ICU occupancy by 100. And then you consider the fact that the unvaccinated are only 10% of the population but 42.7% of the ICU patients, it should make people think. But I guess not.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> You just expressed your opinion as well, not fact.
> 
> One fact is that you will never get to 100% of Canadians vaccinated - never.
> Do you keep restrictions, segregation, hate, division in place forever?
> What are the metrics that are being followed? What are the thresholds that need to be reached to remove restrictions and mandates? It has been 2 years and people in charge have no plan


Nope, I didn't express an opinion that omicron isn't mild. I provided a study and a number of articles that stated that it was still severe for unvaccinated.

As for the rest, I'll let you jabber on.


----------



## Saintor

bgc_fan said:


> Nope, I didn't express an opinion that omicron isn't mild. I provided a study and a number of articles that stated that it was still severe for unvaccinated.
> 
> As for the rest, I'll let you jabber on.



Actually, there were way less many deaths than before, including the unvaccinated. So what you wrote is plain wrong.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> Or you can use actual numbers with your supposition of 10x less likely to be in the ICU.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid-19.ontario.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right now in Ontario there are 118 unvaccinated and 158 vaccinated. If everyone was vaccinated, that would reduce the ICU occupancy by 100. And then you consider the fact that the unvaccinated are only 10% of the population but 42.7% of the ICU patients, it should make people think. But I guess not.


Happy to use the numbers. Ontario has 2343 ICU beds.

Looking at the numbers you have 10% of population taking 42.7% of beds, so they are 4.27x overrepresented.
Therefore reduction would be 76.6%.
118 x (1-0.766) = 28 
118 - 28 = 90

90/2343 = 3.8%

Therefore, if you sent gestapo, broke into people's homes, pinned them to the ground and forcefully vaccinated, you would free up 3.8% of ICU capacity.

Worth it? I don't think so.


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## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Happy to use the numbers. Ontario has 2343 ICU beds.
> 
> Looking at the numbers you have 10% of population taking 42.7% of beds, so they are 4.27x overrepresented.
> Therefore reduction would be 76.6%.
> 118 x (1-0.766) = 28
> 118 - 28 = 90
> 
> 90/2343 = 3.8%
> 
> Therefore, if you sent gestapo, broke into people's homes, pinned them to the ground and forcefully vaccinated, you would free up 3.8% of ICU capacity.
> 
> Worth it? I don't think so.


 ... no need for you to decipher and decide whether it is worth it or not. Least of all for Ontarians. Ontario taxpayers would prefer to spend its dollars on 1. the "experts" to do that, and 2. expecting results with the first and foremost job of ensuring the safety of its citizens.

What the taxpayers of other provinces want to do with its premiers (dancing and running like a bunch of puppets) is up to them .


----------



## zinfit

damian13ster said:


> Happy to use the numbers. Ontario has 2343 ICU beds.
> 
> Looking at the numbers you have 10% of population taking 42.7% of beds, so they are 4.27x overrepresented.
> Therefore reduction would be 76.6%.
> 118 x (1-0.766) = 28
> 118 - 28 = 90
> 
> 90/2343 = 3.8%
> 
> Therefore, if you sent gestapo, broke into people's homes, pinned them to the ground and forcefully vaccinated, you would free up 3.8% of ICU capacity.
> 
> Worth it? I don't think so.


based on cases per million it works out to about 125 hospitalizations for the vaccinated and a 760 for the unvaccinated. In Alberta about 80% of the ICUs are the unvaccinated.


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## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> Nope, I didn't express an opinion that omicron isn't mild. I provided a study and a number of articles that stated that it was still severe for unvaccinated.


What you are missing is that no one is disputing that some, probably mostly unvaccinated people, are going to have a hard time with their Omicron infection. That is not in dispute.

What we are saying is that when all this is over, the number of people dead compared to the number of people infected and then recovered, from Omicron, will be lower then if we had to go down that same exposure road with any other variant from the past. That is what makes this variant so mild and I could not care less if it is coming from the variant itself, the vaccines or warm weather or what is actually the case, all of the above. 

I only care that the opportunity for an end to this pandemic, has finally presented itself. If we do it right and don't waste any warm weather we can minimize the deaths and the strain on our hospitals to the lowest level possible, but whatever we decide to do, we are going down that road one day. There is no other road out.


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## Money172375

Posted this under ”Future Travel Plans” too.









Canada to make changes to COVID border restrictions next week-official


Canada is reviewing its pandemic-related border restrictions and will likely announce changes next week, as the worst of a Omicron variant-driven wave appears to have passed, Canada's health minister said on Friday.




www.reuters.com


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> based on cases per million it works out to about 125 hospitalizations for the vaccinated and a 760 for the unvaccinated. In Alberta about 80% of the ICUs are the unvaccinated.


If you plug in those numbers you are looking at around 3.8% of ICU capacity.
Don't see how that changes the conclusion.


----------



## bgc_fan

Saintor said:


> Actually, there were way less many deaths than before, including the unvaccinated. So what you wrote is plain wrong.


I guess it means what you mean by way less deaths than before. First wave (ending in May 2020) got you to about 200 deaths/million, 2nd wave (Oct 20-Feb 21) got you from 250 - 570, so 320, 3rd wave (Apr-Jul 21) got you 600-700 so 100, 4th wave (Aug - Nov 21) got you 700-780, so 80. Current wave from (Dec 21+) gets 790 to 920, so 130 so far. Looks like it'll probably match the first wave after it is all done, but maybe not. OTOH, given that we have vaccines and a high rate of vaccination, getting close to the first wave numbers would seem to be a bad thing wouldn't it?


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> What you are missing is that no one is disputing that some, probably mostly unvaccinated people, are going to have a hard time with their Omicron infection. That is not in dispute.
> 
> What we are saying is that when all this is over, the number of people dead compared to the number of people infected and then recovered, from Omicron, will be lower then if we had to go down that same exposure road with any other variant from the past. That is what makes this variant so mild and I could not care less if it is coming from the variant itself, the vaccines or warm weather or what is actually the case, all of the above.
> 
> I only care that the opportunity for an end to this pandemic, has finally presented itself. If we do it right and don't waste any warm weather we can minimize the deaths and the strain on our hospitals to the lowest level possible, but whatever we decide to do, we are going down that road one day. There is no other road out.


Yeah, I've had enough of this. I've said my piece and you've said yours.

I mean if you're fine telling everyone that it's going to mild without the significant qualifier, IF YOU ARE VACCINATED, then that's you and getting all the invaccinated people infected with omicron is your way out, than there's not much I'm going to say.


----------



## james4beach

As a society, we seem to have (for some reason) decided to just give up on protecting the public.

Is this really such a good idea to just sit by and let all these KIDS get covid? What if it turns out that there are important health consequences later?

It's not surprising that tons of kids are getting covid. (1) they're in school (2) they hardly have any vaccinations, (3) they play with siblings, who likely have covid.

I was reviewing BC data and ran into something shocking. The test positivity rate among young children is insanely high.
Ages 0-4 have around 50% positivity
*Ages 5-14, around 60% positivity and staying high, while other age groups decline*

It's very likely that omicron is spreading like wildfire among children, and that a huge % of kids have it. Nobody seems to really care because kids (thankfully) don't die from covid... but what about other health consequences?

OK, I understand we don't give a sh*t any more about people over 70 or the medically vulnerable (screw 'em!), but aren't children supposed to be precious or something?

So now we just let all the kids get covid, and hope it turns out OK in the long term?


----------



## m3s

There's no way to stop the spread and that was never the intent

The intent was to "flatten the curve" to not overwhelm the healthcare system. Flatten the curve just means spreading out the amount of people infected at a time

The planet is basically infected with a human pandemic and nature is doing what nature does to restore balance


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> Yeah, I've had enough of this. I've said my piece and you've said yours.
> 
> I mean if you're fine telling everyone that it's going to mild without the significant qualifier, IF YOU ARE VACCINATED, then that's you and getting all the invaccinated people infected with omicron is your way out, than there's not much I'm going to say.


Appreciate that. You obviously missed the point. I will take the above as a final jab of anger. It happens at the end of good debates. Thanks for the discussion.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> As a society, we seem to have (for some reason) decided to just give up on protecting the public.
> 
> Is this really such a good idea to just sit by and let all these KIDS get covid? What if it turns out that there are important health consequences later?
> 
> It's not surprising that tons of kids are getting covid. (1) they're in school (2) they hardly have any vaccinations, (3) they play with siblings, who likely have covid.
> 
> I was reviewing BC data and ran into something shocking. The test positivity rate among young children is insanely high.
> Ages 0-4 have around 50% positivity
> *Ages 5-14, around 60% positivity and staying high, while other age groups decline*
> 
> It's very likely that omicron is spreading like wildfire among children, and that a huge % of kids have it. Nobody seems to really care because kids (thankfully) don't die from covid... but what about other health consequences?
> 
> OK, I understand we don't give a sh*t any more about people over 70 or the medically vulnerable (screw 'em!), but aren't children supposed to be precious or something?
> 
> So now we just let all the kids get covid, and hope it turns out OK in the long term?


James. The point is not just giving up and letting everyone get covid. The point is that this battle was lost once covid got out of the barn. We lost control of it. It is all over the world and incubating in animals now. It cannot be stopped. Everyone is going to get it. Either this variant, or maybe a better one in the future OR maybe a much more deadlier one in the future...but that is our future.

All we are doing is finally admitting it. Looking for the best way to get the initial exposure and ending the pandemic.

It may not work. No doubt, many people will die, as they are right now anyway, while we lockdown. It may create long term problems for some or all, but hiding from it will not change any of that. I am surprised why so many people cannot see that. It's like a denial reflex or perhaps it's an off the cuff opinion that they would have preferred not to get it. I can understand that and I am certainly not trying to insult. I am just trying to understand. In any case, the fight is over. We just need to figure out a way to guide the population to our endemic future the best way possible. Omicron is probably the best opportunity we may get combined with the warm weather soon coming up. So I say, let's take it.


----------



## Beaver101

m3s said:


> *There's no way to stop the spread *and that was never the intent
> 
> The intent was to "flatten the curve" to not overwhelm the healthcare system. Flatten the curve just means spreading out the amount of people infected at a time
> 
> The planet is basically infected with a human pandemic and nature is doing what nature does to restore balance


 ... yes, in hindsight. This is a "modern-times" pandemic and I don't see we (humans) can handle future ones any better either. Maybe there's no need to once a WW3 starts and/or a big meanie asteroid hits earth.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> As a society, we seem to have (for some reason) decided to just give up on protecting the public.
> 
> Is this really such a good idea to just sit by and let all these KIDS get covid? What if it turns out that there are important health consequences later?
> 
> It's not surprising that tons of kids are getting covid. (1) they're in school (2) they hardly have any vaccinations, (3) they play with siblings, who likely have covid.
> 
> I was reviewing BC data and ran into something shocking. The test positivity rate among young children is insanely high.
> Ages 0-4 have around 50% positivity
> *Ages 5-14, around 60% positivity and staying high, while other age groups decline*
> 
> It's very likely that omicron is spreading like wildfire among children, and that a huge % of kids have it. Nobody seems to really care because kids (thankfully) don't die from covid... but what about other health consequences?
> 
> OK, I understand we don't give a sh*t any more about people over 70 or the medically vulnerable (screw 'em!), but aren't children supposed to be precious or something?
> *
> So now we just let all the kids get covid, and hope it turns out OK in the long term?*


 ... even we say "yes" to your question (last sentence), remember "currently" these kids have parents and those parents have parents too. 

Not sure what the stats are but no doubt the rates of orphaned kids have shot up considerably these past 2 years - in North America, particularly the USA.


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## MrMatt

m3s said:


> There's no way to stop the spread and that was never the intent
> 
> The intent was to "flatten the curve" to not overwhelm the healthcare system. Flatten the curve just means spreading out the amount of people infected at a time
> 
> The planet is basically infected with a human pandemic and nature is doing what nature does to restore balance


Also to delay enough to figure out how to treat it.

At the start we had no COVID treatment drugs, and they weren't even sure how to set the ventillators, more or less O2, more or less pressure.


----------



## MK7GTI

james4beach said:


> As a society, we seem to have (for some reason) decided to just give up on protecting the public.
> 
> Is this really such a good idea to just sit by and let all these KIDS get covid? What if it turns out that there are important health consequences later?
> 
> It's not surprising that tons of kids are getting covid. (1) they're in school (2) they hardly have any vaccinations, (3) they play with siblings, who likely have covid.
> 
> I was reviewing BC data and ran into something shocking. The test positivity rate among young children is insanely high.
> Ages 0-4 have around 50% positivity
> *Ages 5-14, around 60% positivity and staying high, while other age groups decline*
> 
> It's very likely that omicron is spreading like wildfire among children, and that a huge % of kids have it. Nobody seems to really care because kids (thankfully) don't die from covid... but what about other health consequences?
> 
> OK, I understand we don't give a sh*t any more about people over 70 or the medically vulnerable (screw 'em!), but aren't children supposed to be precious or something?
> 
> So now we just let all the kids get covid, and hope it turns out OK in the long term?


Are you just choosing to ignore the death rate of children from Covid? It’s extremely low.


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## OptsyEagle

When you guys look at the world around you, does it appear to you that we have all the time in the world to lockdown, restrict and wait for whatever wonderful things our future might be able to invent to help us through this pandemic? That time ticking away has absolutely no negative effect at all?

Do you really think these businesses can just open up and close down and open up again, over and over again, and somehow continue to survive and still employ people, while we wait for the last vaccine holdout to finally roll up their arm and take a shot? Do you think $150 billion annual budget deficits are sustainable for every year it might take to figure some of this new stuff out? Do you really think the 99% of Canadians, where covid-19 poses very little danger to them, are just going to sit around in their homes and patiently wait while our medical science runs more and more tests and publishes more studies and completes more drug trials?

Please give that a little more thought. I mentioned, quite a few posts back, that our options are becoming less and less. We are running out of time.


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## Beaver101

^ You're laughable with your post, particularly the part:



> _Do you really think the 99% of Canadians, where covid-19 poses very little danger to them, are just going to sit around in their homes and patiently wait while our medical science runs more and more tests and publishes more studies and completes more drug trials?_ ...


 ... why don't you be more realistic and state that about 90% of the population is taking this pandemic or Covid19 as a disease seriously and doing their part (whether by vaxxing, masking, social distancing, complying with the laws, etc.) so that we (as all humankind) can move on, including businesses opening, hospitals functioning, etc.

And then advise yourself on this part of your lecture:


> _Please give that a little more thought. I mentioned, quite a few posts back, that our options are becoming less and less. We are running out of time_.


 ... and ask yourself the question -do you think the politicians love to impose rules, restrictions, lockdowns to stag the economy and not collect their taxes from you plus whatever have you ... and that healthcare workers are robots? 

Also, where are you in a rush with the running out of time? I hope it's not the hospital or are you expecting another pandemic?


----------



## damian13ster

MK7GTI said:


> Are you just choosing to ignore the death rate of children from Covid? It’s extremely low.


Sounds like intentionally hurting someone to protect them from something that hasn't proved to be damaging for them in 2 years is kind of a losing tactic but what do I know


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## ian

Last week my daughter got a message from CRA about some sort of covid program that she was entitled to. Probably Tuesday last.

So she called CRA who appear to be administering the various programs. Sure enough she was entitled. Completed the info with the agent who appeared to have all the data. Apparently they are contacting people directly because the take rate is low.

Daughter thought nothing of it.....it would take months to process. Much to her surprise she got a deposit in her bank account from the program this Saturday morning that must have been processed on Friday or earlier. Incredible.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> As a society, we seem to have (for some reason) decided to just give up on protecting the public.
> OK, I understand we don't give a sh*t any more about people over 70 or the medically vulnerable (screw 'em!), but aren't children supposed to be precious or something?


It really comes to what protecting the public means.

Things have changed since them beginning of the pandemic. If we look at some of the key goals:

At the very beginning, there were hopes if we lock down hard enough, we could rid of Covid. There was very little known about covid.
Then it was to flatter the curve for the main reason of not overwhelming our health care system so there were death that might have been prevented if there was hospital space. We didn't want people dying because they could get care.
At the same time, our most vulnerable (older and those with co-morbidities) were dyeing at alarming rates. I believe it was about 1 in 4 of the high risk groups would dye if they contracted covid.
There was no medical protection aka vaccines to prevent people from getting infected, only social distancing, masks, public health measures. Lockdowns and restrictions where there to protect the vulnerable, NOT children and the lower risks. However, it was necessary because there was a high chance if a non vulnerable person got it (a healthy kid), they would pass it on to their parents which would easily get into the vulnerable population and 25% of those people could die.
Then vaccines came out. At the time on the original strain, it was about 95% effective in reducing getting infected AND was very effective in reducing serve outcomes (hospitalization and death). It made sense that every get vaccine to reduce severe outcomes and infection.
Then Alpha came out, vaccine still was suspected of up to 60-80% in reducing infection and severe outcomes. Still makes sense that everyone get vaccinated.
The Beta came out - we just watch here, not much to see, there was some concern. The vaccine was still effective for both severe outcomes and maybe a little less in transmission. So no change, everyone should be still vaccinated. It was over taken pretty quickly, so I didn't have time to read up about it.
Delta was the next game changer. The severe impacts stats were showing up on younger age groups, so everything seems to shift about 10 years down. The vaccine was showing less effective against transmission and there were some waning effects, down to as low at 20% reduction in getting COVID, however, it was showing very effective against severe outcomes. In fact those unvaccinated in ALL age groups were showing up to 40 times more likely to have a severe out. The unvaccinated were the ones over whelming the healthcare system. It made sense to put in vaccine passports if provinces hadn't already done so. Even if 80-90 of the eligible population was vaccinated. The few unvaccinated were the ones causing most of the issues
Omicron - here we are. Transmission is believed to be somewhere around R0 12-15 (original strain was between 2.-4) . Vaccination does not seem to have much impact on reducing transmission, so both the vaccinated and unvaccinated are spreading it equally, however, it still is effective against severe outcomes. *As long as the hospitals are not overwhelmed*, then non being vaccinated no longer has an impact on the vaccinated. Everyone should still get vaccinated, but mandating it no longer makes sense.

Side note: @bgc_fan and @OptsyEagle were arguing similar points. Based on the higher number transmissions and active cases, there are much fewer percentage of people ended up with severe outcome out of those infected. (due to vaccines and possibly a lessor severity of the virus), so Optsy is correct in saying that those that contact Covid now are less likely to have a severe outcome, therefore the risk is lower that if you get COVID you will have a severe outcome. In the same argument, BGC indicates that hospitalizations per 100K are higher. This is also true. However, this is over the general population. The risk of getting covid with Omicron is actually much higher (4-6 times than originally), however if you do get it, with vaccines you would do a lot better in all age groups compared to the original. 

Now, the general public is protected. The numbers are much much lower if you are a vulnerable group with a vaccine. Hospitals are not at the point of being overwhelmed (as of right now in my province), Vaccines are not reducing spread. It was never about stopping spread on the non vulnerable, we went through these measures because the non vulnerable were likely to kill the vulnerable by continual transmission. 


> I was reviewing BC data and ran into something shocking. The test positivity rate among young children is insanely high.
> Ages 0-4 have around 50% positivity
> *Ages 5-14, around 60% positivity and staying high, while other age groups decline*
> It's not surprising that tons of kids are getting covid. (1) they're in school (2) they hardly have any vaccinations, (3) they play with siblings, who likely have covid.


First what does positivity rate mean? Its about of the people who are eligible for testing, tested positive. A high rate does indicate a high transmission and lower one indicates that it's going down. However, in my province the only kids getting tested are those that are immunocompromised or have symptoms and already have someone in their home that meets the eligibility with for testing. Those being tested are going to be at a higher chance of having it than previous test requirements. Whether it's 20% or 80% positivity the number alone doesn't matter with looking a the testing requirements. 

It is well know that may people are getting covid, not just kids, Omicron may become the second most contagious virus known (currently measles is first)



> Is this really such a good idea to just sit by and let all these KIDS get covid? What if it turns out that there are important health consequences later?
> 
> It's very likely that omicron is spreading like wildfire among children, and that a huge % of kids have it. Nobody seems to really care because kids (thankfully) don't die from covid... but what about other health consequences?
> 
> *So now we just let all the kids get covid, and hope it turns out OK in the long term?*


This is the thing, kids don't die from the virus very often, and especially vaccinated ones. You talk about potential unknow physical effects from Covid. This could have for anything. However, there are already many known long term effects happening for kids NOW due to covid:

- Mental health issues are skyrocketing. More kids are being diagnosed with severe anxiety, depression, and other mental health issues because of COVID. Just before covid, my kid was diagnosed with several mental health issues. Dealing with a mental health issue is just as exhausting and physical issues, in some cases its even more challenging because one never goes into 'remission' or 'gets an all clear' from their disease. I was 'lucky' that I was already dealing with my kids mental hell just before covid, so was able to get them extra support during the covid. Many kids and parents still don't even see that their kids have mental health issues because of covid, and if they do, it's harder to get help now because the resources to get you started are scarcer due to demand. I always took the choice of my parents safety and doing the right thing, I saw the impacts on my kids mental states. I was spending $1000 a month out of pocket to pay for counselling and support for my kids. Not all parents can do that.

Kids are NOT okay right now. They have had a large part of their developmental years ripped from them. In 2 years in a life of a child, that can be multiple development milestones that have been hampered. I have seen it all
Babies 0-2 - they learn from primarily from their families, not just their parents. There is has a lack of family and ability for extended family to help. If parents are fortunate enough to be able to work at home and care for their babies, the babies are probably ok.
Toddlers/Preschooler 2-5: Social development is huge. Having other kids around to play with has not been available for a lot. Many parents kept their kids at home. Pre-covid, you could tell the kids that stayed at home and didn't have interactions, they were the ones who had trouble with sharing, patience, not biting or hitting other kids, just general getting along. This is pretty important as it sets the stage for the school years and later.
School age (6-11) - The social interactions are missing again. This is age where the kids are showing mental health issues now because of COVID. There is a big difference in 2 or 3 years in development. Right now, kids are 'stuck' at being younger. School foundations are starting to be missed.
Middle school (12-14) Help us all! This is the start of one of the most turbulent times for kids. Kids start to change as much at this age, as they did as a toddler. However, they are supposed to be developing their sense of self and independence and the starts of the type of person they will be. Much of the learning comes from peer interaction. It's a a natural time many develop social anxiety. COVID has really messed this up. Kids are not able to develop the way they are supposed to. School is becoming more important, but it's a crap show
High school (15-18) - This is the time kids are supposed go on and practice being adults with other practice adults while under guidance from their parents. They need stability in their environments because inside, there is little. Again, it's a crap show out there. Schools opening and closing, not being able to meet friends, the whole education is a mess especially as they think of college. 

These were just some of the highlights, I could write a whole paper on this. I have seen kids developmentally and socially delayed, mental health issues happening, kids are angry and confused and don't know how to handle their emotions (heck barely can). Their education and childhoods are being taken from them. What will these kids be like as adults.

The physical threats and unknowns of COVID are not the biggest threats to our kids, it is their development, social, and mental states that are most threatening.

I flip the question.
*So now we just let all the kids stay locked up, and hope it turns out OK in the long term?*


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> It really comes to what protecting the public means.
> ...
> I flip the question.
> *So now we just let all the kids stay locked up, and hope it turns out OK in the long term?*


 ... you might want to start that question with the parents of those kids because it seems some of them adults are NOT okay "now", never mind about the long term either. 

I think you would agree that kids generally are pretty resilient and more so than adults. But then less so with "parents" that can't be relied upon or fail their responsibility first.


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> ... you might want to start that question with the parents of those kids because it seems some of them adults are NOT okay "now", never mind about the long term either.
> 
> I think you would agree that kids generally are pretty resilient and more so than adults. But then less so with "parents" that can't be relied upon or fail their responsibility first.


You are right, there are adults and not just parents that are not okay right now. They may be at low risk for severe COVID outcomes, but are impacted more by the lock downs and stress of covid. That's a different discussion. 

Kids are resilient, but when they developmental stages taken from them, the become less resilient. That is what is happening now. As a responsible parent, I have to weigh out not only the physical risks of covid with the other risks of mental health. That is the responsibility of the parent. Don't know why you have parent's in quotes.

So we can agree that many people (kid, parents, and non parents) are not alright, not because of being infected with covid, but all the secondary impacts of trying to prevent covid. When the secondary measures have bigger impact than the initial thing we are trying to prevent, then we need to do something about the secondary impacts.


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## OptsyEagle

We are running out of time. One just has to turn on any Canadian news station today to see some of the aspects of that, in a live news stream, with respect the growing number of people who will refuse to restrict or lockdown anymore. As @Plugging Along has added, we also have a serious ongoing issue with our children, specifically with their education. How long can we continue to offer them only a 3rd rate education. It's been 2 years for them now and whether we like it or not they are getting older every year and 2 years has a way bigger effect on the life of an adolescent or teen then it does on an adult.

Combine those issues with the new, severely reduced threat that this Omicron virus poses to our highly vaccinated population and one cannot help but wonder why we continue to approach this virus the way that we do. If I thought all the vulnerable could avoid infection forever I might think this approach had some benefit, but even that cannot be obtained, with the main people causing the failure there, being the vulnerable people themselves. Here I am mostly talking about those, in our society, who remain unvaccinated but other fully vaccinated people, who knew what to do to stay safe, but didn't do that, could certainly be added to that list.

It's time to put most of these restrictions aside and move on with our lives. As I have said so many times, anything else is just delay with an additional cost, that gets added to whatever cost is in front of us.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> Omicron - here we are. Transmission is believed to be somewhere around R0 12-15 (original strain was between 2.-4) . Vaccination does not seem to have much impact on reducing transmission, so both the vaccinated and unvaccinated are spreading it equally, however, it still is effective against severe outcomes. *As long as the hospitals are not overwhelmed*, then non being vaccinated no longer has an impact on the vaccinated. Everyone should still get vaccinated, but mandating it no longer makes sense.


I think the low rate of hospitalization/death, and the inability of vaccination to stop the spread is why the mandates don't seem justified.
Vaccination, at this stage, is mostly personal health choice, and should be respected as such.
I think for most it's a bad choice, like smoking, using marihuana, or taking opioids, or voting <party/candidate I don't like>, but you have the right to make your own bad decisions.


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## james4beach

MK7GTI said:


> Are you just choosing to ignore the death rate of children from Covid? It’s extremely low.


I know the death rate is low. But I'm pointing out that there is a risk of letting all these kids catch covid. *Every kid in school will catch covid, and few are vaccinated. *It's an extremely high risk environment at the moment.

We don't know if there may be longer term effects of the disease. This is quite a gamble and I'm not comfortable with it. If it turns out that severe acute covid infections result in higher rates of certain disabilities in the future, we may be setting up a whole generation of kids for serious problems down the line.

Then there will be questions. Why didn't the government protect them? Why did the government protect all these seniors, but opened everything and encouraged everyone to cram into schools and catch covid... while we still had open questions about long-term consequences?

Why did Canada recklessly let covid rip through schools, while other countries like Taiwan actually had smart measures inside schools to limit contagion and spread, to protect their children? Make no mistake... we are GAMBLING here.


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## m3s

Imagine being grounded for all your teen years

My colleagues have teenagers and it doesn't make any sense. Most teens don't follow rules to begin with and isolation is more damaging than COVID itself. Almost everything is modern society has long term effects.. just read some ingredients in the grocery store

Everyone is free to isolate themselves if they chose james


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## OptsyEagle

Plus I missed the plan on how we are going to be able to keep these kids from getting covid. Is the plan being presented that we lockdown until the kids are all adults? I guess I am not following how we resolved that issue.


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## sags

Most of the financial support by governments for people to "stay isolated" have been removed.

People no longer would have any choice. They would have to go to work to earn a living.

In some employment they would be exposed to covid by every customer that walked in the door.

Open up the big office towers, bring the office workers back and see what happens.


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## sags

Bring back the CERB for anyone who feels "vulnerable" and wants to self isolate, and then open everything up.

It is only a few months ago that the CPC were hollering about removing all financial supports because it encouraged people not to work.

They want to force people to expose themselves to covid at work.

Going to work and exposing yourself or staying home and starving isn't much of a "free choice".


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Most of the financial support by governments for people to "stay isolated" have been removed.
> 
> People no longer would have any choice. They would have to go to work to earn a living.
> 
> In some employment they would be exposed to covid by every customer that walked in the door.
> 
> Open up the big office towers, bring the office workers back and see what happens.


 ... that's why the current government is taking a "gradual approach" with the support of the medical community. And I think the medical community is pressurized to support the government in moving things quicker than they actually want to.

I'm glad I live in Ontario, Canada and that Ford is at least listening to the medical experts. [That's 1 brownie point for him and I'm okay with him spending the weekend up at the cottage instead of entertaining those ruckers in Ottawa. The cops / law enforcement got their jobs to do.]


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Bring back the CERB for anyone who feels "vulnerable" and wants to self isolate, and then open everything up.
> 
> It is only a few months ago that the CPC were hollering about removing all financial supports because it encouraged people not to work.
> 
> They want to force people to expose themselves to covid at work.
> 
> Going to work and exposing yourself or staying home and starving isn't much of a "free choice".


 ... does the CPC ever know what they want? Oh, forgot Pollievre does.


----------



## Beaver101

m3s said:


> Imagine being grounded for all your teen years
> 
> My colleagues have teenagers and it doesn't make any sense. *Most teens don't follow rules to begin* with and isolation is more damaging than COVID itself. Almost everything is modern society has long term effects.. just read some ingredients in the grocery store
> 
> *Everyone is free to isolate themselves if they chose james*


 ... so there's your answer in bold(s)... even during the pandemic.


----------



## m3s

Beaver101 said:


> ... so there's your answer in bold(s)... even during the pandemic.


So protect yourself if you're concerned. There's been ample time to do so. Stop worrying about everyone else

Let the teens and truckers live their lives. The essential workers have been business as usual the entire time


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## Beaver101

m3s said:


> So protect yourself if you're concerned. There's been ample time to do so. Stop worrying about everyone else


 ... isn't that obvious? I don't suppose you wouldn't want to protect yourself "first"? Unless your motive is "I give a crxp who I pass the virus to as long as I get to do what I want".



> Let the teens and truckers live their lives. The essential workers have been business as usual the entire time


 ... who's stopping them from living their lives? Just as with everyone else ... obeying the "laws". You do realize there're laws in this country?


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## damian13ster

Especially if your worries lead you to hurt children. We had enough of that for past 2 years


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## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Especially if your worries lead you to hurt children. We had enough of that for past 2 years


 ...why don't you insinuate that my worries lead me to hurt children and yet protect their adults and their grand-adults instead. 

Has it never occurred you that many kids are doing okay whilst the parents of these so-called "hurted" children were on the loonie-trail in the first place? I think we had enough of these for more than the past 2 years. 

Where is the parents' responsibility - for 1st having these "hurt" kids, and 2. the school ain't a baby-sitting service, no matter how much taxes you pay.


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> I flip the question.
> So now we just let all the kids stay locked up, and hope it turns out OK in the long term?


No. Instead of being lazy, we smarten up and use better tools and methodologies to protect the public, like what Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan do.

Those countries have far higher population densities than us. This isn't a question of density, but rather strategy and smarts. Those are excellent first-world countries with very high standards of living.

Some of you talk as if the only choice is to keep children locked up or something. You do realize that kids in Taiwan still go to school right? Same in Japan.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> No. Instead of being lazy, we smarten up and use better tools and methodologies to protect the public, like what Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan do.
> 
> Those countries have far higher population densities than us. This isn't a question of density, but rather strategy and smarts. Those are excellent first-world countries with very high standards of living.
> 
> Some of you talk as if the only choice is to keep children locked up or something. You do realize that kids in Taiwan still go to school right? Same in Japan.


I think those countries handle COVID very well in the beginning, however I know Taiwan has been losing control. 

In the beginning, kids were already masked (it's pretty normal even before COVID). There was no mask pushback and they had alot of complete island lock downs. Schools and education are most highly regarded so they had individual barriers at desk, surgical grade masks for all kids (and everyone)
- If you were able to get into Taiwan, it was a 14 day hotel quarantine, then moved to 10. However, a few cases got through, and now they are not doing as well as you say. 

Schools have now started to shut down due to outbreaks. Vaccine rates are just over 74% and they are scrambling. They weren't in a hurray to vaccine because they were able to close down borders. We know of people that had family die their and they were not able to get to their loved ones in time. 

My understanding is Japan did the same. it is much easier to slow the spread when your whole country is on an island that they close down all the borders, and people don't cry about their rights. 

What different protections would you recommend for the schools if not shutting down? I have seen what some of the private schools are doing ,and the amount of money their boards and parents are putting in, I don't think it's possible for public schools. I am curious on what people think should be done now. What are these better methodologies and tools that you talk about? 

I know in Taiwan and Japan it was locking down the country from the outside, but allowing things to still happen inside. What else is there?


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> I think those countries handle COVID very well in the beginning, however I know Taiwan has been losing control.


Have you looked at their stats recently? Through the entire omicron surge, Taiwan has zero deaths.

Taiwan hasn't had any deaths since August! How many have we had? Maybe 10,000 deaths?

Not losing control at all. They have made smart decisions and it continues to save lives.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> Have you looked at their stats recently? Through the entire omicron surge, Taiwan has zero deaths.
> 
> Taiwan hasn't had any deaths since August! How many have we had? Maybe 10,000 deaths?
> 
> Not losing control at all. They have made smart decisions and it continues to save lives.


But you keep believing they can maintain that. Unless they can transport all their citizens to a planet where Covid-19 is not solidly endemic, those deaths will simply come at a later stage. How does locking down their country change the vulnerability of the various citizen's in their country. Does it make an 85 year old all of a sudden become 55? Does it make any of their immune compromised citizens less compromised? No. It just delays the inevitable infections and whatever fallout comes from that. That is all that restrictions can do anymore. Taiwan cannot stop covid-19. I wish some country could, but they can't.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> But you keep believing they can maintain that. Unless they can transport all their citizens to a planet where Covid-19 is not solidly endemic, those deaths will simply come at a later stage.


I see it differently. Because of the constant improvements in medical care, in my view, with each passing day, covid becomes less dangerous and less fatal. Taiwan has bought time. Yes their seniors and vulnerable will catch covid, eventually, but they have bought ~ 2 years of time.

In that time, covid is becoming less fatal for a variety of reasons. So I think they have saved lives by deferring the infections and illness. And they didn't shut down everything to save these lives. You can see the economic stats of places like South Korea, these countries have been operating quite well.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> Have you looked at their stats recently? Through the entire omicron surge, Taiwan has zero deaths.
> 
> Taiwan hasn't had any deaths since August! How many have we had? Maybe 10,000 deaths?
> 
> Not losing control at all. They have made smart decisions and it continues to save lives.


You are right, they have had much fewer deaths. I am asking you, what measures do you think would have been reasonable in Canada?

Like I said, they locked down outside, so inside was a lot safer. Would it have been acceptable that Taiwanese nationals were not allowed to return unless is was considered an emergency? An emergency as deemed by the government? Then you had to quarantine in a guarded hotel room for 14 days?

We know several Taiwanese nationals that have not been able to return for two years. Some missing the death of their parents. 

Schools, I have already said that schools have done a very good job there. I know some private schools that have learned some of the protocols which helps. but it's much easier to keep the virus at bay if you have it, you go to an isolation hotel. 

Again, I ask what do you think Canada should be doing?


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> You are right, they have had much fewer deaths. I am asking you, what measures do you think would have been reasonable in Canada?


I'm not a public health expert or epidemiologist, so I would leave it to the experts to study Taiwan / South Korea / Japan and adopt the measures that they can. Maybe they would determine that there is no Canadian appetite for what those countries did.

I think Canada did a good job managing things overall. We ended up with a lower death rate than the US and Europe, but we should still look to other countries that demonstrated success and learn lessons from them.

As a starting point, we could have funded the PHAC much better so that we actually had an agency capable of handling this! I applied to work with PHAC several years ago and found that they have basically no staff and no funding. People I know who used to do disease modeling had to abandon it due to no interest. I even know a team (associated with PHAC) who was using novel computerized methods for more accurate modeling of disease spreads around hospitals and schools. All of those projects died long ago because nobody cared. Very sad in hindsight as we could have applied more intelligence and better resources to fight the pandemic.

I suspect that the weakness of PHAC and lack of central government capability were big factors. The federal government has the authority, but did not have the infrastructure, to step in. They needed a wartime-like central command center (at the federal level) to coordinate the pandemic response, supported by a large staff of public health experts such as through PHAC and NRC. *We don't have any of this, and still don't.*


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> Again, I ask what do you think Canada should be doing?


Pretty much what we have been doing.
Except at the early stages when they said they'd close/quarantine international travel, they should have actually done so.
The fact that we had internal travel restrictions (advisories) and they didn't manage to implement international ones was a huge failure.



james4beach said:


> I suspect that the weakness of PHAC and lack of central government capability were big factors. The federal government has the authority, but did not have the infrastructure, to step in. They needed a wartime-like central command center (at the federal level) to coordinate the pandemic response, supported by a large staff of public health experts such as through PHAC and NRC. *We don't have any of this, and still don't.*


Firstly health care is a provincial responsibility. The federal government should have had a very limited role, and they failed to even life up to that.
Secondly the regional approach was IMO the right approach.
The situation in Nunvavut was totally different than downtown Toronto, we treated them differently and in general let the local authorities dictate the response.
Honestly some round table in Ottawa, which can't find these places on a map, won't understand the local situations very well, and there are literally thousands of local situations to consider.

I firmly believe that decisions should be made by the most knowledgeable people closest to the situation.
I think it's a very bad idea to have people far away, with little knowledge of the situation making decisions.
I think the response of Ontario, where the province set up a framework, and the regions decided on their particular actions was a bit messy, but also quite appropriate.

Of course this is also my political view, just as those who want a federal response to everything. I just don't see how that works.
Decisions should be made at the point of action, with the support of outside experts as required.

As far as now, I don't think the vaccine passport mess makes sense. If you're symptomatic sure, maybe you should isolate. But with by now half the country having had COVID, and >90% of people vaccinated, and such a low death rate, widespread control measures aren't needed.

If we get a spike, maybe, but I think carrying on measures after they are justified has really killed any public support for reintroducing them.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> No. Instead of being lazy, we smarten up and use better tools and methodologies to protect the public, like what Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan do.
> 
> Those countries have far higher population densities than us. This isn't a question of density, but rather strategy and smarts. Those are excellent first-world countries with very high standards of living.
> 
> Some of you talk as if the only choice is to keep children locked up or something. You do realize that kids in Taiwan still go to school right? Same in Japan.


Allow me a bit of stereotyping…..but I suspect those cultures are more “obedient“ in following government rules. While in Germany, I recognize almost complete similarity to the North American way of life, but there is an air of structure, efficiency and order. The “rules” they follow for laundering clothes is far beyond anything I’ve ever experienced or witnessed in NA.

the reality is that regardless of measures IN school, kids of all ages have been gathering in indoor groups (outside of school) throughout the pandemic. I have Nieces and nephews in organized sports…..the lengths of (illegal) activities going on we’re alarming. 

Overall, I think the current known risks of Omicron are less than the unknown potential future risks. Get your kids vaccinated and put them in online schooling if worried…....still both available options in Ontario.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Lockdowns and restrictions cannot be a forever life. They are a measure with a very short amount of time available to them. They were extremely useful while we developed the vaccines and information pertaining to what this virus actually was, but that time is over. Long over if you ask me.

All these maybe things in the future that will help can just as easily be replaced with maybe things in the future that will end up being considerably more damaging to us.

I attest, that if Omicron had of been the original variant, afflicting our currently vaccinated society, with the people who currently reside in it now, we never would have locked down in the first place. It would have been a very bad flu season, at its worst.


----------



## sags

In Ontario 402 people in ICU units with covid and 18 more deaths were reported over the weekend.

The media says things are getting "better" and some people say it is an "acceptable" death toll.

Imagine the scenario of an earthquake and collapsed buildings, and they were pulling out 18 more bodies every couple of days for years.

In any other scenario, this kind of ongoing scenario would not be considered acceptable.

Relaxing restrictions for some things may be acceptable but for LTC and retirement homes it is completely unacceptable and a dereliction of duty by the government. Removing restrictions for health workers in hospitals and other settings is naive of the possible consequences to patients.

It will expose those at greatest risk to the worst outcomes.

I fear that covid will roar back as soon as restrictions are relaxed and the government will be as powerless to re-implement restrictions as it is to enforce them today.

The virus doesn't care if people are fatigued, bored, or tired of restrictions.

How long will it be before money is no longer spent on covid research and governments discontinue providing tests and PPE ? Will we accept this as the new reality, as some people say we should ?

The virus is winning a battle of attrition.


----------



## OptsyEagle

If the earthquake happened I think we would accept it. What would you do tell it to stop shaking our planet?

A virus showed up, I think we should all accept it. Tell it to go away if you want. Let me know how that turns out.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Let's hope and pray that the positive trend is heading in the right direction with Omicron being the last of it. If not, then it's either back to what worked (same governmental control of restrictions, lockdowns, etc.). Or let the savages do what they want to do in which case *all *man(woman) is for him/herself. Will be interesting times ahead.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> If the earthquake happened I think we would accept it. What would you do tell it to stop shaking our planet?


 ... of course you would as if you can control mother nature. But that's not what sags was trying to say - at what point do you stop digging? pull out the corpses?



> A virus showed up, I think we should all accept it. Tell it to go away if you want. Let me know how that turns out.


 ... again, like you can control the virus. It doesn't mean you stop you from protecting yourself nor stop you from unprotecting yourself so that I can protect myself.

Life moves on - while it's easy for you to opinioniate here, there are thousands who can't because their life is stuck in limbo requiring nonCovid medical treatment.


----------



## sags

If everything in hospitals, particularly in the ER and ICU units is in good shape, why are they bringing in student nurses and PSWs ?

In our city alone there are 7,000 patients waiting for surgeries that include life saving procedures, because the doctors and nurses are reassigned to treat covid patients who need an extraordinary amount of intensive care. The doctors say it will take 5 years to go through the waiting lists, which grow larger each day and will explode if restrictions are removed.


----------



## Beaver101

That's what I was asking last week - what's Ford, Ms. Elliott and that Dr. Moore's plan for the medical backlog? Here's today's article from the TO Star (behind paywall) that touches on that "issue":

‘Catastrophic’ surgical backlog in Ontario will take years to clear, doctors say

I don't think smaller cities in Ontario can look into Toronto's hospitals for help given the above situation. Maybe we can send some of our patients over to Alberta and Saskatchewan since their hospital staffs are picking their noses there ...


----------



## OptsyEagle

OK, so I think it is clear to say the provinces are moving in the direction I have been suggesting. Ontario, with their dates and restriction reductions/removal is probably about bang on what I would have done. Masks should probably go by early April.

With this in mind, perhaps we can move on from the right or wrong of it, for a while, and perhaps focus on what we all should be doing to ensure the maximum number of us, and the people we care so much about, get through it all safely.

Infections are going to rise. It is difficult to predict the final outcome of our healthcare system but reducing restrictions rarely helps them initially. In either case, what will be, will be.

My first level of advice is for the vulnerable. Here I am talking about anyone unvaccinated, older then age 50 and anyone fully vaccinated with co-morbidities or older then age 70, maybe 75. You really need to seriously think about taking 2022 off. I know you have pent up demand for the things that you have been excluded from but the time of low risk for you, is definitely not right now. You need to pull back from society as much as you can, until the main wave of infections/exposure blows through your community. The waste water will be a more telling sign if testing cannot keep up, which I doubt it will.

Pulling back from society, means almost exclusively outdoor gathering only. Short indoor activity, like using a washroom, getting a drink, is probably OK, but keep it short. No overnight stays. They will kill you, whether the household is vaccinated or not. I will repeat, overnight stays will kill you whether the household is vaccinated or not.

If you are visiting a vulnerable person, please wear a mask if you can and test, test, test, using the rapid test kits. Keep in mind, they cannot tell you for sure, that you are not infectious with covid-19, but they can tell you that if you are, you are not transmitting a very high viral load at the time. That is a least something. Keep your visits short if you can or keep testing, testing, testing.

Good luck everyone. It's going to be OK.


----------



## damian13ster

OptsyEagle said:


> OK, so I think it is clear to say the provinces are moving in the direction I have been suggesting. Ontario, with their dates and restriction reductions/removal is probably about bang on what I would have done. Masks should probably go by early April.
> 
> With this in mind, perhaps we can move on from the right or wrong of it, for a while, and perhaps focus on what we all should be doing to ensure the maximum number of us, and the people we care so much about, get through it all safely.
> 
> Infections are going to rise. It is difficult to predict the final outcome of our healthcare system but reducing restrictions rarely helps them initially. In either case, what will be, will be.
> 
> My first level of advice is for the vulnerable. Here I am talking about anyone unvaccinated, older then age 50 and anyone fully vaccinated with co-morbidities or older then age 70, maybe 75. You really need to seriously think about taking 2022 off. I know you have pent up demand for the things that you have been excluded from but the time of low risk for you, is definitely not right now. You need to pull back from society as much as you can, until the main wave of infections/exposure blows through your community. The waste water will be a more telling sign if testing cannot keep up, which I doubt it will.
> 
> Pulling back from society, means almost exclusively outdoor gathering only. Short indoor activity, like using a washroom, getting a drink, is probably OK, but keep it short. No overnight stays. They will kill you, whether the household is vaccinated or not. I will repeat, overnight stays will kill you whether the household is vaccinated or not.
> 
> Good luck everyone. It's going to be OK.


meh, to little to late.

There are no 'double peaks'. The moment to drop all restrictions is the moment the peak has passed. That has been a week ago. The second best moment is NOW. I hope people don't stop putting pressure on government until the very moment all mandates are lifted


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> As a starting point, we could have funded the PHAC much better so that we actually had an agency capable of handling this! I applied to work with PHAC several years ago and found that they have basically no staff and no funding. People I know who used to do disease modeling had to abandon it due to no interest. I even know a team (associated with PHAC) who was using novel computerized methods for more accurate modeling of disease spreads around hospitals and schools. All of those projects died long ago because nobody cared. Very sad in hindsight as we could have applied more intelligence and better resources to fight the pandemic.
> 
> I suspect that the weakness of PHAC and lack of central government capability were big factors. The federal government has the authority, but did not have the infrastructure, to step in. They needed a wartime-like central command center (at the federal level) to coordinate the pandemic response, supported by a large staff of public health experts such as through PHAC and NRC. *We don't have any of this, and still don't.*


I agree that PHAC might have helped in the modelling for overall federal response, but as already stated healthcare is a provincial authority, as it should be. I would not want decisions being made out east for my province. 

More 'intelligence' is not what we needed. The fed did a pretty good job in the beginning, but they now need a plan to return to an endemic state. The provinces are the best to handle that, I would even say the municipalities know more because they are closer. 




> I'm not a public health expert or epidemiologist, so I would leave it to the experts to study Taiwan / South Korea / Japan and adopt the measures that they can. Maybe they would determine that there is no Canadian appetite for what those countries did.
> 
> I think Canada did a good job managing things overall. We ended up with a lower death rate than the US and Europe, but we should still look to other countries that demonstrated success and learn lessons from them.


How do you know that they didn't look at other countries? Everyone was watching Sweden at first (I am glad we didn't do that). I was personally watching Taiwan, Singapore, Japan, etc. Many of their protocols there, people in Canada were complaining about already. Schools where distancing and barriers immediately put up between students, it was almost impossible here to do that. Masking was already there, and it went to pretty much 100% before the rest of the WHO declared a pandemic, borders where being closed, businesses had people monitoring for temperatures and symptoms with doctors checking travellers every few hours, mandatory quarantine. People were asked to do their part to keep essential services like schools, hospitals, ect open. People here wouldn't even put on a friggin mask at time. I had surgical masks shipped to me from these countries early on. It just took forever because of shipping delays. 

I responded to you as a direct reply to your post... 


james4beach said:


> As a society, we seem to have (for some reason) decided to just give up on protecting the public.
> 
> Is this really such a good idea to just sit by and let all these KIDS get covid? What if it turns out that there are important health consequences later?
> 
> It's very likely that omicron is spreading like wildfire among children, and that a huge % of kids have it. Nobody seems to really care because kids (thankfully) don't die from covid... but what about other health consequences?
> 
> OK, I understand we don't give a sh*t any more about people over 70 or the medically vulnerable (screw 'em!), but aren't children supposed to be precious or something?
> 
> So now we just let all the kids get covid, and hope it turns out OK in the long term?


So I asked again, what would you do differently. You said follow other smart countries. 

So then I provide why those smart countries are different. The reason is, it's much easier to protect the kids, when the whole country is aiming at zero cases. That option left almost two years ago when we didn't completely lock down our borders. 

So we protect are kids as we have been, just keep in mind that their bigger threat is not COVID, because very few kids dies, it's their mental health. There have been more suicides and attempts in the last two years than COVID related deaths of kids. 



james4beach said:


> I know the death rate is low. But I'm pointing out that there is a risk of letting all these kids catch covid. *Every kid in school will catch covid, and few are vaccinated. *It's an extremely high risk environment at the moment.
> 
> Why did Canada recklessly let covid rip through schools, while other countries like Taiwan actually had smart measures inside schools to limit contagion and spread, to protect their children? Make no mistake... we are GAMBLING here.


We do not need to protect our kids from COVID as much, but rather the other impacts. You can say that we are gambling, but you have not provided any solution, because you are not an expert. Don't you think that some of the experts have looked at other countries, (even other provinces) and are trying to balance protection from COVID verse other things. 



james4beach said:


> Taiwan hasn't had any deaths since August! How many have we had? Maybe 10,000 deaths?
> Not losing control at all. They have made smart decisions and it continues to save lives.


You are right, they are doing a great job at deaths, but considering they are aiming for zero cases, it's out of control. Their citizens were willing to what it takes when they saw they it was working, but their starting to question if that's the best moving forward now. For a while, they were not very rushed to get vaccines, now they are at the silimar place we were last year, encouraging people to get vacinnated. Their kids are not very vaccinated. 

My whole point to this, is you said we are not protecting our kids by opening up. I say we are, we still need to be cautious, but COVID isn't the biggest threat to our kids right now.


----------



## OptsyEagle

For the rest of us. My advice is to simply go on with your life while being cautious with the vulnerable people in your circle of friends and family. Even fully vaccinated, with 2 doses or 3, you can still hit a person with a pretty nasty load of virus, so always keep that in mind. For yourself, if you are fully vaccinated, you are in very strong shape, provided you do not possess the main vulnerabilities. I know we all like to think we are average or above but if you happen to possess quite a few pounds above the recommended BMI index number, you are vulnerable. Don't kid yourself. We all also probably know the other comorbidities that takes this safer virus and attaches some pretty nasty fangs to it. So be honest with yourself.

If you are the average fully vaccinated Canadian you need to stockpile the following stuff:

1) Test kits will be very handy in 2022 and maybe beyond
2) Your household needs a working body temperature thermometer, an oxygen pulse meter and a blood pressure monitor, would also be very useful.
3) You need to be taking Vitamin D supplements. At least 1000 units per day, especially in the winter and colder months.
4) You should have zinc lozenges to be taken upon onset of cold like symptoms.
5) If you have covid, you want to regularly change the air in your room. Don't keep reinfecting yourself with virus, that you have so luckily expelled from your body and don't let anyone else in the house, breathe it in either.
6) Keep drinking warm liquids during your infection period to wash away as much virus as you can that is in your throat.
7) If you have a nasal/sinus rinse kit, use it a couple times a day to rinse away virus in your sinuses.

Keep a good check on your vitals. If the oxy meter starts hitting numbers close to 90% or lower, go to the hospital. If the your blood pressure hits dangerous levels, go to the hospital. If the fever starts hitting 104F, take Tylenol and if it keeps rising, go to the hospital.

Otherwise, stay home and recover from your Omicron infection/inoculation. You should be fine.

Oh yeah, and get vaccinated if you have not already.


----------



## zinfit

There is a limit on how much control a government can impose on its citizens in a liberal democratic society. I think people are tired of the authoritarian measures and the inconsistent guidance coming from the medical experts .


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Let's hope and pray that the positive trend is heading in the right direction with Omicron being the last of it. If not, then it's either back to what worked (same governmental control of restrictions, lockdowns, etc.). Or let the savages do what they want to do in which case *all *man(woman) is for him/herself. Will be interesting times ahead.


I do hope this is the heading in the right direction of going into an endemic. If not, then we will need to do what it takes to protect the healthcare system again, even if it means restrictions again. It's always a balance between your individual circumstances and the good of society. 



Beaver101 said:


> ... again, like you can control the virus. It doesn't mean you stop you from protecting yourself nor stop you from unprotecting yourself so that I can protect myself.


Lifting some of the restrictions, does not mean we should stop protecting ourselves. Every person has responsibility to take care of themselves. When the restrictions, no longer provide as much protection as it did before, then one needs to look at if they restriction is still need. 

Our province lifted the vaccine passport last week. The restaurants were PACKED at some places from people who havent been in since the first restrictions. At this point, vaccines are proving to not stop transmission, so it doesn't make sense to mandate them, because it doesn't protect the general public like it did. If I don't feel comfortable with, then I pick a less busy restaurant, or still get take out. 

Today, masks are no longer required in school. I don't love that so I sent my kids with level 3 surgical masks and an N95. We talked about that COVID is still here like it was last week so they still should keep distance where they can, wear their mask on the bus and in crowded hallways at the minimum, and if their classmates are very close. Though I wish the mask mandate would stay on because it does provide general protected, we will take our own precautions like we did in the beginning. Lifting restrictions, doesn't stop us from being safe. It's just a lot more difficult,


----------



## Beaver101

^ Needless to say, you're the smart one with doses of common sense.

As for _"Lifting restrictions, doesn't stop us from being safe. It's just a lot more difficult,", _actually it makes no difference if you take this disease seriously.

But lifting restrictions will make people (general population) more complacent which then becomes a problem - or possibly square 1.

We'll see how it goes.


----------



## OptsyEagle

damian13ster said:


> There are no 'double peaks'. The moment to drop all restrictions is the moment the peak has passed. That has been a week ago. The second best moment is NOW. I hope people don't stop putting pressure on government until the very moment all mandates are lifted


No matter how much I would like to agree with you that is not always the case. Here is Denmark. As you probably know they dropped all restrictions on February 1st. You can clearly see their infection rate rising again. Where it goes nobody knows, but a rising infection rate is something to be expected, and prepare for, but it does not necessarily need to be feared.



covid cases denmark - Google Search



I want to be clear about this.


----------



## damian13ster

OptsyEagle said:


> No matter how much I would like to agree with you that is not always the case. Here is Denmark. As you probably know they dropped all restrictions on February 1st. You can clearly see their infection rate rising again. Where it goes nobody knows, but a rising infection rate is something to be expected, and prepare for, but it does not necessarily need to be feared.
> 
> 
> 
> covid cases denmark - Google Search
> 
> 
> 
> I want to be clear about this.


Denmark did not wait for the peak to be over before dropping all restrictions. In fact, they lifted restrictions on the day they hit record cases, and that record was beat the very next day.










you can see the downtrend has started Feb 10


----------



## sags

The latest Leger poll on removing restrictions.


----------



## OptsyEagle

damian13ster said:


> Denmark did not wait for the peak to be over before dropping all restrictions. In fact, they lifted restrictions on the day they hit record cases, and that record was beat the very next day.
> 
> View attachment 22798
> 
> 
> you can see the downtrend has started Feb 10


Great. Lets hope it is all over.

All I am trying to say is that rising infections do not foretell big problems ahead. I have no doubt Sags will be bringing us some pretty dire charts and articles in the future but we really need to keep a handle on what is a new problem and what is just something that we should have expected.

Personally, I am expecting that this incredibly infectious virus will FLASH through our communities. Flashing tends to mean a very high number of infections over a fairly short period of time. It also means that infection rates and all the charts that measure it will show it going up, for some period of time, but I cannot precisely predict how high and for how long or even be sure it will happen at all.

I am just trying to prepare for all outcomes. We have little choice but to face this virus, so getting it over with quicker is really the best approach that is available to us. As I have said many times, most other approaches simply delay it, at best.


----------



## sags

Unfortunately, the dire charts aren't just numbers on a page.


----------



## sags

Pandemic..........what pandemic ? I don't see no pandemic.


----------



## sags

The Omicron variant is from a different branch of the virus than the Delta and past strains.

Scientists say there will likely be another variant from another branch to deal with in 3-4 months.

It could be less dangerous or more dangerous.

They simply don't know until it shows up, but they are quite certain it will come.

With no vaccinations and few travel or other restrictions it will spread globally rapidly.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> The Omicron variant is from a different branch of the virus than the Delta and past strains.
> 
> Scientists say there will likely be another variant from another branch to deal with in 3-4 months.
> 
> It could be less dangerous or more dangerous.
> 
> They simply don't know until it shows up, but they are quite certain it will come.
> 
> With no vaccinations and few travel or other restrictions it will spread globally rapidly.


 ... we'll find out and then we'll know who to "actually" blame this time, ain't Ford. The bald-headed top doctor with the black-rim glasses, and then his boss( does he need one?), for sure.

Can't say much for the global spread, all countries are competing with each other for the "records". ... of infections, deaths, et al. The donkey has already kicked the barn doors off and left for good.


----------



## sags

A new variant may already be in circulation.

It is a combination of the Delta and Omicron variants, which scientists didn't believe possible.

It was first discovered a month ago in Cyprus but was dismissed and now has spread.

They are calling it the Deltacrom variant. It is as deadly as the Delta and infectious as the Omicron.

Scientists say it was created by a person infected with both variants at the same time.

_While initially a combined mutation of the two variants was dismissed, UK health officials are now looking at the newly discovered strain as a legitimate threat. 

The update from the UK Health Security Agency included “Delta x Omicron Recombinant” as a signal that’s currently being monitored and investigated. There are confirmed cases in the UK, although no further details were provided. _









Deltacron: New Covid variant in UK is merged coronavirus mutation of lethal Delta and contagious Omicron


UK health officials confirmed this weekend that they are monitoring a new Covid strain which is a combination of Delta and Omicron, dubbed 'Deltacron' by




www.cityam.com


----------



## Beaver101

^ Man, I can't even keep up. 

I gather this recombinant will be a matter of "concern" when the country(s)' health systems collapses. (new definition).


----------



## Spudd

sags said:


> A new variant may already be in circulation.
> 
> It is a combination of the Delta and Omicron variants, which scientists didn't believe possible.
> 
> It was first discovered a month ago in Cyprus but was dismissed and now has spread.
> 
> They are calling it the Deltacrom variant. It is as deadly as the Delta and infectious as the Omicron.
> 
> Scientists say it was created by a person infected with both variants at the same time.
> 
> _While initially a combined mutation of the two variants was dismissed, UK health officials are now looking at the newly discovered strain as a legitimate threat.
> 
> The update from the UK Health Security Agency included “Delta x Omicron Recombinant” as a signal that’s currently being monitored and investigated. There are confirmed cases in the UK, although no further details were provided. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deltacron: New Covid variant in UK is merged coronavirus mutation of lethal Delta and contagious Omicron
> 
> 
> UK health officials confirmed this weekend that they are monitoring a new Covid strain which is a combination of Delta and Omicron, dubbed 'Deltacron' by
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cityam.com


This is apparently not true.









Deltacron: the story of the variant that wasn’t


News of a ‘super variant’ combining Delta and Omicron spread rapidly last week, but researchers say it never existed and the sequences might have resulted from contamination.




www.nature.com


----------



## Beaver101

^ I guess we will find out who's true or not. And by that time, it maybe too late. Oh well.


----------



## londoncalling

Vaccination pass verifier being decommissioned | The Star Phoenix

There seems to be an ongoing race between SK and AB to lift restrictions as quickly as possible. Not that my opinion matters but I don't see why masking needed to be lifted until we saw the impacts of other restrictions being removed. I also don't appreciate that they will be limiting reporting of case data. I understand we need to learn to live with Covid as we all have been trying to do for 2 years. I guess if we pretend it's over the general public will be none the wiser.












As an aside. I am interested to see how provincial governments will deal with the backlog in other health care services that have been put on hold indefinitely. I also wonder what the lifting of restrictions will do to the service industries. I know several servers that were harassed last time masking restrictions were lifted for continuing to wear them after it was no longer required.

I agree that we should turn our attention as to what to do going forward as we can't change what was done or not done previously. I appreciate the helpful comments that have been provided recently and am reminded that the protective measures I have taken have kept those around me safe even though work put me into situations that others would have considered risky. Interprovincial travel, flights, etc.


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> The latest Leger poll on removing restrictions.
> 
> View attachment 22799


I am surprise that the yes is as high as it is. The poll isn't very useful, as most would think that just lifting ALL restrictions is not the greatest idea. I think you would have had the same results of 32% yes if the wording was 'should all restriction remain in place?' Absolute question of yes and no along with the word 'all' bias the results.

I do think some restrictions need to go. Vaccine passports have served it's purpose (I believe it was the right decision at the time), but keeping them in place are not going to impact transmission. I would have liked to see masks in certain settings, like classrooms, large venues with large amount of people, or where you are 'stuck' beside someone without distance (can't move around and avoid people), would have been good. I prefer them being gradual with removing of masks and removing of capacity restrictions. Of course this wasn't the poll though. 

So do I think ALL restrictions should be lifted right now, NO. However, my answer doesn't reflect what my intent is.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> I do hope this is the heading in the right direction of going into an endemic.


I disagree that "going endemic" is the "right direction".
The right direction is any outcome that is relatively insignificant levels of harm.
Eradication would have been best, endemic, not sure, a LOT of people die to endemic disease.



> At this point, vaccines are proving to not stop transmission, so it doesn't make sense to mandate them, because it doesn't protect the general public like it did.


Which is one of the points that the protests are trying to make.
Since the restrictions aren't scientifically valid, they shouldn't exist.
It's actually in our constitution, they can only implement REASONABLE restrictions.

The fact that Trudeau would rather run and hide than lead is the biggest part of the problem.
(didn't he flee question period when the opposition started asking questions last week?)

FYI, My kids have been wearing N95's since before Xmas, and they are almost the only people in their class who are doing so. Honestly they're not having much trouble with properly fitted comfortable masks.


----------



## londoncalling

Keeping restrictions that no longer serve a purpose is pointless. Hastily abandoning all safety measures because you want to get on with life is foolish. Unfortunately, the matter has become divisive for a lot of people but I can understand everyone is frustrated. 

@MrMatt kudos to you for being proactive to have your kids using N95s well in advance.


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> I disagree that "going endemic" is the "right direction".
> The right direction is any outcome that is relatively insignificant levels of harm.
> Eradication would have been best, endemic, not sure, a LOT of people die to endemic disease.


Endemic is better direction than staying in a pandemic. To me that's a right direction. Of course I would rather have eradication, but I don't see that happening any time soon. I don't think we should wait in trying to return to a 'normal' (whatever that means) state. Keeping all restrictions the same doesn't make sense. 



> Which is one of the points that the protests are trying to make.
> Since the restrictions aren't scientifically valid, they shouldn't exist.
> It's actually in our constitution, they can only implement REASONABLE restrictions.
> 
> The fact that Trudeau would rather run and hide than lead is the biggest part of the problem.
> (didn't he flee question period when the opposition started asking questions last week?)


I agree with the first part, I think the vaccine restrictions are no longer valid under the current scenario (though I did think they were valid before). I thought it was a reasonable restriction previously, but now things have changed. This is the challenge with what is 'reasonable'. I think masks are still reasonable, but some never thought it was reasonable. I think there is still science around the masks in the currently scenario too. That's always the difficulty is defining something somewhat subjective. 

I have mixed feelings on how Trudeau has handled the protesters. In principle, he should have met with the protesters like he had with other ones (BLM for example). HOWEVER, I do understand the hesitancy not to meet in person. I think was a security risk. Some of the protestors have called for a replacement of government. As much as I don't like Trudeau and the party in charge, they were elected in. I cannot support replacing them with a group selected by the protesters is not an attack against democracy. Add to that they have just confiscated weapons along with thousands of rounds of ammunition, it's a great threat. I am all for peaceful protest even if it results in civil disobedience and disruption of services. I cannot support violence of any type. Some have said it's only a small sub set of people that have guns or are showing nazi's symbols. My answer is how many guns or racist symbols is acceptable!?!? The answer is ZERO. I think that's where the protesters went wrong. Protesting mandates is their right, demanding an over throw of government and having weapons crosses the line. For that reason, Trudeau shouldnt meet with them. It becomes local terriorism. 



> FYI, My kids have been wearing N95's since before Xmas, and they are almost the only people in their class who are doing so. Honestly they're not having much trouble with properly fitted comfortable masks.


My kids had the (K)N95 and found it a little hard for physical activity but moved to the level 3 surgical masks. They didn't think it was a big deal. My youngest wore a tight n95 for her practices and found it a little hard to breath but did so she wouldn't get sick before competition. It will be interesting to see what happens this week as they just lifted all masks from classes.


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## damian13ster

****, War Measures Act has been enacted


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> Endemic is better direction than staying in a pandemic.


Not really, a pandemic is where a disease is prevalent, endemic is when the disease if found regularly.
They're really two sides of the same coin.




> To me that's a right direction.


How?
Remember, we're talking about pandemic vs endemic, both terms mean that it exists in a population. Endemic suggests it will remain going forward.

The good news is that these strains appear to be less dangerous, but that really has nothing to do with if the disease is endemic or not.



> I have mixed feelings on how Trudeau has handled the protesters. In principle, he should have met with the protesters like he had with other ones (BLM for example). HOWEVER, I do understand the hesitancy not to meet in person. I think was a security risk.


Check them for weapons before moving them to a secure location, just like any other meeting with the PM.



> Some have said it's only a small sub set of people that have guns or are showing nazi's symbols. My answer is how many guns or racist symbols is acceptable!?!? The answer is ZERO. I think that's where the protesters went wrong.


The protestors were actively confronting and reporting people displaying racist material.

Weapons are unacceptable, and I hope those who had them are prosecuted to the fullest extend of the law.
Since in several weeks and tens of thousands of protestors they've only found a small number of weapons, I think that is more the actions of a few agitators than the mainstream protestors.
Also the protest leaders have been very clear that they wanted to remain peaceful.

I think the fact that Trudeau chose to demonize and attack people critical of his policies, is problematic.

I also think it's stupid to protest provincial stuff at the Federal level... but welcome to Canada, where even the government doesn't know how to read the constitution.


----------



## damian13ster

Counter-protesters in Ottawa had Communists flag. How many are acceptable?
Do we now label every counter-protester a communist insurrectionists?

People need to be level headed and not call massive amount of people racists, misogynists, nazis, communists, just because there is 1 or 2 morons in a group


And the breaking point that made people say it is too much and go on the streets was a federal policy. 
There are plenty of federal mandates that are worthy of protests:

Federal employee, contractor, and federally regulated industry mandates
Travel mandates (those are straight up unconstitutional. Section 6 of the charter is broken and section 1 doesn't apply since tested unvaccinated person is less risk than vaccinated untested person - but courts are slow as hell)
Mandatory testing at the border

Provinces are finally coming up with plans. Federal government literally refuses to even come up with a plan. How idiotic is that? The motion to come up with a plan, not to drop everything, is somehow rejected.


----------



## sags

The plan is to remove restrictions when it is safe to do so.


----------



## damian13ster

And what metrics are used and what thresholds need to be passed for that to happen?
That is literally what is being asked. If you are using science and data, then what metrics and values need to be achieved for it to be safe enough to drop the mandates? Literally all the government is asked to provide in a plan.

But it isn't about science. It is about politics. They politicized the pandemic. They made a decision to divide, segregate, stigmatize, and spread hate among Canadians. There is no place in science for that so they refuse to follow and discuss science. Hate speech - no science


----------



## james4beach

I still say that seniors and vulnerable people deserve to be protected. They've paid their taxes throughout their life. And today's seniors are the ones who built this country... I find it shameful that as a society, we place higher priority on having bars & restaurants open, gyms, massive weddings... all of these are apparently more important than the lives of seniors.

The Asian countries appear to have far more respect for seniors and the vulnerable, and are actually protecting them.

Indoor restrictions need to stay until spring. Indoor mask requirements should remain until the pandemic is truly over.


----------



## damian13ster

.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> I still say that seniors and vulnerable people deserve to be protected. They've paid their taxes throughout their life. And today's seniors are the ones who built this country... I find it shameful that as a society, we place higher priority on having bars & restaurants open, gyms, massive weddings... all of these are apparently more important than the lives of seniors.
> 
> The Asian countries appear to have far more respect for seniors and the vulnerable, and are actually protecting them.
> 
> Indoor restrictions need to stay until spring. Indoor mask requirements should remain until the pandemic is truly over.


But you are simply part of a group holding out hope that we can continue to protect them and are willing to pay a huge cost simply to delay their outcomes, mainly because you personally bear little of that cost in comparison.

Restrictions and lockdowns do not ever make an 85 year old 45 again. They don't allow a person on Chemo therapy to all of a sudden get a good immune system back. They don't remove 80 lbs of weight from a citizen whose BMI index is currently through the charts.

Trying to protect a citizen of earth from an insanely infectious virus like Omicron will be a losing proposition eventually. We cannot stop exposures, only delay. With the transmissibility of Omicron our precautions are similar to trying to hold back a Tsunami with sand bags. It can't be done. Acknowledging that is all that is happening with this disrespectful population, you seem to want to point a finger at and disrespect.


----------



## sags

The statistics prove that restrictions have been effective against covid in Canada.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> The statistics prove that restrictions have been effective against covid in Canada.


I did not say they were not effective in delaying the severe outcomes. I am just questioning if that delay is really worth the ongoing costs.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> But you are simply part of a group holding out hope that we can continue to protect them and are willing to pay a huge cost simply to delay their outcomes, mainly because you personally bear little of that cost in comparison.


 ... or you're that part of the group that likes to control the growth of the population, like trying to be an expert with longevity and mortality. Only the reality is you're an expert at shooting 2 sides of your mouth. First, it was get everyone exposed ... with Omicron since it ain't so deadly and our healthcare systems can handle it. Now, you're personally (and no one else is, particularly J4B with your post aim) suffering and greatly so by being locked in your room, spewing on this forum instead of supporting your local businesses that I not once heard of.



> Restrictions and lockdowns do not ever make an 85 year old 45 again. They don't allow a person on Chemo therapy to all of a sudden get a good immune system back. They don't remove 80 lbs of weight from a citizen whose BMI index is currently through the charts.


 ... at least a cancer or obese person doesn't have the potential to infect others if they get Covid. I guess you would rather see them die first so that you can achieve your dream of being Benjamin Button or never having to use the healthcare services.



> Trying to protect a citizen of earth from an insanely infectious virus like Omicron will be a losing proposition eventually. We cannot stop exposures, only delay. With the transmissibility of Omicron our precautions are similar to trying to hold back a Tsunami with sand bags. It can't be done.


 ... obviously, with people of your mentality. Why don't you just raise your white flags and be done with it instead of obstructing other people who're trying to protect themselves & their loved ones?



> Acknowledging that is all that is happening with this disrespectful population, you seem to want to point a finger at and disrespect.


 ... look who's yapping.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The statistics prove that restrictions have been effective against covid in Canada.


In the past, they were basically useless against Omicron, which is actually the point. 

The restrictions are offering little real benefit today, that's why they should and ARE being lifted.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> But you are simply part of a group holding out hope that we can continue to protect them and are willing to pay a huge cost simply to delay their outcomes, mainly because you personally bear little of that cost in comparison.


Boy are you wrong in so many ways.

I suffer lots of costs too. It's not like I'm hanging out here having a great time. I'm a single guy and covid has severely disrupted the ability to date, socialize, meet a long term partner. The dating world has come to a halt, and everyone out there is cautious and nervous. It has directly gotten in the way of things I need in life.

This whole thing is delaying me from forming my family and settling down with someone. How about you? *Are you already married? Do you already have a family, and children?*

I don't yet. I'm at a critical age where I really need to form a family. Perhaps my sacrifices are even more significant than yours.

There are some family members I haven't seen in a long time, including those in the US and Europe, due to travel restrictions. I don't have much family in Canada other than my parents, pretty much everyone is abroad, and impossible to reach.

*Is your family actually in Canada? Do you have local friends and family in your own city? If so... how lucky for you.*

My business has directly suffered. I was negotiating new opportunities just as covid started. I haven't been able to do in-person networking and my business networks have been deteriorating, with direct impact on my income. I have workflows with people in other countries and cannot visit them. My income is suffering.

I've had TONS of inconveniences and hassles, but I'm also in favour of making some compromises in life to protect my health and others. I know very well about the inconveniences of covid.

Also, covid (even omicron) is just plain dangerous. The reality of the pandemic is that we have to restrain our activities. This isn't the choice of government; it's what the virus forces us to do.

We've all been inconvenienced. I'm getting a bit tired hearing about people complaining about children being locked at home. First of all, we know the kids are NOT locked at home. They go to school and see their friends. They are out and having fun with their friends all the time, they hang out together in their homes. The teenagers are all out, I see them hanging out all the time... they are barely inconvenienced.

Basically, we're all in the same boat of having inconveniences and irritations due to not being able to do everything we want. But LIMITING our public gathering and high-risk activities helps suppress the severity of the disease spread. It's unfortunate but it's necessary.


----------



## damian13ster

You are operating under an assumption that restrictions make significant difference.
They don't. So you are asking everybody to sacrifice for essentially no benefit


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> Boy are you wrong in so many ways.
> 
> I suffer lots of costs too. It's not like I'm hanging out here having a great time. I'm a single guy and covid has severely disrupted the ability to date, socialize, meet a long term partner. The dating world has come to a halt, and everyone out there is cautious and nervous. It has directly gotten in the way of things I need in life.
> 
> This whole thing is delaying me from forming my family and settling down with someone. How about you? *Are you already married? Do you already have a family, and children?*
> 
> I don't yet. I'm at a critical age where I really need to form a family. Perhaps my sacrifices are even more significant than yours.
> 
> There are some family members I haven't seen in a long time, including those in the US and Europe, due to travel restrictions. I don't have much family in Canada other than my parents, pretty much everyone is abroad, and impossible to reach.
> 
> *Is your family actually in Canada? Do you have local friends and family in your own city? If so... how lucky for you.*
> 
> My business has directly suffered. I was negotiating new opportunities just as covid started. I haven't been able to do in-person networking and my business networks have been deteriorating, with direct impact on my income. I have workflows with people in other countries and cannot visit them. My income is suffering.
> 
> I've had TONS of inconveniences and hassles, but I'm also in favour of making some compromises in life to protect my health and others. I know very well about the inconveniences of covid.
> 
> Also, covid (even omicron) is just plain dangerous. The reality of the pandemic is that we have to restrain our activities. This isn't the choice of government; it's what the virus forces us to do.
> 
> We've all been inconvenienced. I'm getting a bit tired hearing about people complaining about children being locked at home. First of all, we know the kids are NOT locked at home. They go to school and see their friends. They are out and having fun with their friends all the time, they hang out together in their homes. The teenagers are all out, I see them hanging out all the time... they are barely inconvenienced.
> 
> Basically, we're all in the same boat of having inconveniences and irritations due to not being able to do everything we want. But LIMITING our public gathering and high-risk activities helps suppress the severity of the disease spread. It's unfortunate but it's necessary.


Let's agree to disagree.

I'll take back the point about you not suffering. We all are suffering. My main point is why? Just to delay someone's exposure? Seriously? That is a pretty high cost for just that.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> Let's agree to disagree.
> 
> I'll take back the point about you not suffering. We all are suffering. My main point is why? Just to delay someone's exposure? Seriously? That is a pretty high cost for just that.


You make a lot of good points, I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. Yes of course there is some balance to be found. We absolutely need to manage the load on hospitals, and that's a huge one. My biggest concern is the ability of the hospitals to operate normally.

Delaying exposures and slowing the rate of disease spread, may avoid having the hospitals flooded and overwhelmed. We have finite capacity, and we're losing staff all the time.

But I trust our Public Health leadership and have been following their guidance. I think they're sharp people. I don't want them to be politically pressured. Instead I want them to continue making the right decisions about health. Already, they are easing various restrictions (though some of this is politically motivated unfortunately).

I will follow the guidance of Public Health authorities. They have the best data and best expertise. As a society, we have delegated this responsibility to them.

Maybe I don't understand your position. Are you not "on board" with what your province's Public Health is advising? Practically every province is relaxing restrictions. They aren't going to end them overnight, as that would be reckless in a pandemic. From everything I see, the world is shifting in the direction you want.

What dissatisfies you about the current situation? Is it that you think public health measures are still too strict? Are you not willing to wait out the relaxing-rules path that's already under way?


----------



## OptsyEagle

My position is based on many important points:
1) Omicron is less severe. I don't want to argue the point anymore, but it is, and you ask for my position.
2) Our population is highly vaccinated...more importantly as vaccinated as we are ever going to be now and in the future.
3) At this point, most precautions are just delays. As I said, locking down does not make an 85 year old a 45 year old. The vulnerable will always be vulnerable. We are just delaying their exposures.
4) Omicron is so infectious it cannot be stopped.
5) I also think Omicron is a pandemic ender. The better vaccine is Omicron exposure. That part we will find out more later, but whether it works or not, does not change the above points.
6) Avoiding Omicron leaves us in a higher risk position for any new variant that is more severe then Omicron. The immunity Omicron can provide, along with vaccination, can fight a lot more variants then no Omicron exposure at all. Most pandemics end this way.
7) Lockdowns and Restrictions are just going to be harder and harder to implement. Just look at the news. Look around the world. I did not make this world, but I do see it.

Our only future is to reduce restrictions, acquire safe exposure to Omicron (summer with vaccination) and end this pandemic once and for all.

That is pretty much my position on the matter. And yes, I do worry about our older generations and other vulnerable people, contrary to your other post, as do most younger people who suffered through 2 years of lockdowns when covid posed little danger to them. That comment of yours was about as rude as my comment about you not suffering. Both comments were wrong.


----------



## damian13ster

Exactly. How long are you going to sacrifice for? Does it really matter if the hypothetical 85 year old gets omicron tomorrow, or a month from now? What if the next variant turns out to be more dangerous? Then by waiting a month they might catch more dangerous variant instead of omicron.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> Our only future is to reduce restrictions, acquire safe exposure to Omicron (summer with vaccination) and end this pandemic once and for all.


But we're already doing this. Every province is starting to relax. So aren't you getting exactly what you want?

It seems you should be happy with the current situation. It's going the way you want, I think. Or are you arguing that we need to do something differently than we're already doing?

I do think you're jumping to a conclusion that the pandemic ends with omicron. We could still get more dangerous mutations that require more caution from us. Maybe it's best to not get your hopes up too much. This will probably be an annual nuisance, with a routine annual shot. Some years will be worse than others.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> But we're already doing this. Every province is starting to relax. So aren't you getting exactly what you want?
> 
> It seems you should be happy with the current situation. It's going the way you want, I think. Or are you arguing that we need to do something differently than we're already doing?
> 
> I do think you're jumping to a conclusion that the pandemic ends with omicron. We could still get more dangerous mutations that require more caution from us. Maybe it's best to not get your hopes up too much. This will probably be an annual nuisance, with a routine annual shot. Some years will be worse than others.


I am getting exactly what I want. No argument and I am quite pleased. My responses come when I read posts arguing it is the wrong approach ...like yours did. Each of us can have an opinion, but I want to help as many readers get as comfortable with what is going to happen, as I can. It makes no difference, and I can explain that part in moment, but I want to help them get a little more comfortable because it may get a little scary and for a while it may seem like everything is out of control. It is not.

*You see, if things go the way I expect, *this is what I think will happen. As soon as we reduce restrictions and open up more capacity, take away vaccine passports, etc., infections are going to rise again. You see, at best right now we have maybe 40% of our citizens currently exposed and the more probable number is probably closer to 25%. So we have 75% of our citizens about to go on with their lives who really don't have any idea how insanely infectious this variant actually is...and they are going to get sick. And they are going to get scared because they were told to be scared of covid. But the vast majority of them are going to recover and come out much stronger because of it. During all that I want them to understand that there was no alternative and that the vast majority of Canadians (99.99%) are going to be just fine.

A secondary effect should also happen as that other large group recovers. Even though we only have 0.34% of the population of Ontario unvaccinated that are age 60 or older, that is still around 50,000 people, in just one province. Add to that number all the vaccinated with co-morbidities etc., and then super impose the most infectious virus our world has ever seen, and there is a very good chance our hospitals may come close to toppling or they may topple...for a short while. Whether we like it or not we are going to have to deal with all that, without lockdowns. We ran out of time. To implement restrictions will take away too much warm weather making the infections WE ARE GOING TO GET more dangerous if we get them later when the weather is colder. We have to get this flash infection wave through our country this summer and preferably before the next variant comes our way.

It would help if more people understood this and if they were a little more prepared, but I mentioned it will make little difference what they think or do. That is because hospitalizations are a lagging indicator. Since Omicron is so infectious, I suspect that by the time our hospitals start to come under stress, if they ever do, and by the time someone figures out how to actually implement restrictions, in a country that does not accept them as easily anymore, the main wave of infections will be over..and that should prevent us from delaying or getting in the way of finally ending this pandemic, once and for all.

That is what I am looking for. There is a scenario where things turn out even better and of course with the future, there can always be other possibilities, but we really don't have a lot of options. Omicron is our best hope. If anyone has a better plan that does more then just delay the end of the pandemic, for no net gain, I am happy to discuss it.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> My responses come when I read posts arguing it is the wrong approach ...like yours did


I also have a lot of trust in the health authorities and the government. I watch the press conferences and listen to the reasoning of the public health officials.

I have adapted and come on board with their guidance. I have never had any reason to distrust the BC authorities, so if their guidance is that we relax all kinds of things, I will be on board with that.

Sometimes I disagree with their timing or lack of action, but generally I've liked their approach. Today's update and new guidance in BC is that capacity limits are being removed, but indoor masks and vaccination proof is still required. Sounds sensible to me.

My bigger problem is actually with the public disregarding existing public health rules. For example, masks are required in doors and in my apartment building, but my neighbours don't comply. That bothers me because we *DO* have good guidance from experts, and all I ask is that the public does their part and obeys the law.


----------



## OptsyEagle

That is unlikely to get much better in the future. As I mentioned, I believe we have basically run out of time. Moving forward, by reducing restrictions, is really our best and pretty much only viable course of action to end this pandemic.

From my last post you might now have a pretty good idea why I took the time to give my best advice for how the most vulnerable in our society should protect themselves while covid passes through their communities. I also wanted to take the time to give my best suggestions to the other 99% of Canadians, that I think will not have too tough of go with their covid experience, but who really have not received much in the line of advice, from our governments, on the proper home treatment of covid-19. I think "go to the hospital if it gets worse" is the main advice passed along from them even though it is sometimes a little late at that time to begin treatment. Perhaps there is more given out now, I don't know.

I also doubt the plan of all our provincial governments is to open up so as to push a big wave of covid through the provinces, in order to provide the immunity to end this pandemic. But whatever their reasons were their timing could not be better for it all to happen, so I am happy with their response, this time, as well.

My only goal is to see this thing over with the lowest amount of carnage possible. Carnage incorporates more then just dead people, but they are the ones at the top of that large list.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> My position is based on many important points:
> 1) Omicron is less severe. I don't want to argue the point anymore, but it is, and you ask for my position.
> 2) Our population is highly vaccinated...more importantly as vaccinated as we are ever going to be now and in the future.
> 3) At this point, most precautions are just delays. As I said, locking down does not make an 85 year old a 45 year old. The vulnerable will always be vulnerable. We are just delaying their exposures.
> 4) Omicron is so infectious it cannot be stopped.
> *5) I also think Omicron is a pandemic ender. The better vaccine is Omicron exposure. * That part we will find out more later, but whether it works or not, does not change the above points.
> 6) Avoiding Omicron leaves us in a higher risk position for any new variant that is more severe then Omicron. The immunity Omicron can provide, along with vaccination, can fight a lot more variants then no Omicron exposure at all. Most pandemics end this way.
> 7) Lockdowns and Restrictions are just going to be harder and harder to implement. Just look at the news. Look around the world. I did not make this world, but I do see it.
> 
> Our only future is to reduce restrictions, acquire safe exposure to Omicron (summer with vaccination) and end this pandemic once and for all.
> 
> That is pretty much my position on the matter. And yes, I do worry about our older generations and other vulnerable people, contrary to your other post, as do most younger people who suffered through 2 years of lockdowns when covid posed little danger to them. That comment of yours was about as rude as my comment about you not suffering. Both comments were wrong.


 ...Pfizer hasn't even come out with a vaccine to battle Omicron - not until March at earliest. I believe bgc has already mentioned this. 

And yet Mr. Virologist here wants to play expert and is guaranteeing us with his "_Omicron is a pandemic ender_." See above in bold. Everyone heard this here - and if this isn't the case, we end up back with restrictions ... better mask up that entire face before returning to this board to bs some more.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Yeah, it is all my fault. lol

In case you didn't notice, I am just a messenger. I don't have much clout when it comes to covid regulations.

If you have an alternative theory on how things will unfold or a better plan to actually end this pandemic, other then just hoping this virus just magically vanishes, please don't keep it to yourself.

and you really have to stop dreaming about guarantees. It's time to grow up.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> Yeah, it is all my fault. lol


 ... if you're saying it's your fault for your own post, then yah I would agree.



> In case you didn't notice, I am just a messenger. I don't have much clout when it comes to covid regulations.


 ... no, I didn't notice you were merely a "messenger". A messenger for whom? Covid? God?



> If you have an alternative theory on how things will unfold or a better plan to actually end this pandemic, other then just hoping this virus just magically vanishes, please don't keep it to yourself.


 ... I don't have an alternative theory, just the reality. I don't even need to go around predicting things or consulting a crystal ball to come up with this theory of yours. Just follow the damn rules - what happens tomorrow happens tomorrow.



> and you really have to stop dreaming about guarantees. It's time to grow up.


 ... I'm not dreaming about guarantees. It came from your own mouth/post above - starting with:
*



My position is based on many important points:

Click to expand...

*


> blah, blah, blah ...
> 
> *5) I also think Omicron is a pandemic ender. The better vaccine is Omicron exposure.*That part we will find out more later, but whether it works or not, does not change the above points.
> 
> more blah, blah, blah ...


 ... oh, you did add a caveat, the talk from 2 sides of the mouth technique. And then to top it off,



> ...
> blah, blah, blah
> 
> Our only future is to reduce restrictions, acquire safe exposure to Omicron (summer with vaccination) and end this pandemic once and for all.
> 
> ..blah blah blah


 ... that sounds pretty well like a guarantee to me. So what dream? And if I'm to grow up, maybe it's time for you to shut up first, no?


----------



## OptsyEagle

I cannot tell this board what a joy it is to log on and find out that Beaver has responded to one of my posts. I have noticed a few others have had a similar pleasure. It is kind of like waking up with a nasty rash.

Beaver, I simply explained what I think will happen. Can you please stop attacking my posts. If you have something to debate then do so, but these childish responses provides no benefit to a reader. Grow up and try to be civil. If you don't like a poster, just ignore them. I usually take a similar approach with you but it is difficult at times. You really are an annoying rash on this board.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> As I mentioned, I believe we have basically run out of time. Moving forward, by reducing restrictions, is really our best and pretty much only viable course of action to end this pandemic.


Everyone intends to move, generally, towards ultimately removing restrictions. But I hope you realize that restrictions may still have to come back, *and this is not our choice to make*. It entirely depends on the resulting hospital load (and this has always been the case) so this is what drives the situation. It's out of our hands.

I would caution against getting your hopes up and going around with the mindset that "This is all done". Yes it's looking good at the moment, but what happens next depends on so many things, like new variants, how vaccines work for them, public behaviour, and random luck.

It's possible that conditions will again overwhelm the hospitals, and in that situation, restrictions will have to come back. So I strongly recommend keeping realistic expectations and not getting into the mindset that "everything is opening now, this is done". I know this is hard to accept, but it's not any of our choices (and not the government's) choice to make.

If the dynamics of the virus spread overwhelms hospitals, then we are bringing back restrictions.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> Everyone intends to move, generally, towards ultimately removing restrictions. But I hope you realize that restrictions may still have to come back, *and this is not our choice to make*. It entirely depends on the resulting hospital load (and this has always been the case) so this is what drives the situation. It's out of our hands.
> 
> I would caution against getting your hopes up and going around with the mindset that "This is all done". Yes it's looking good at the moment, but what happens next depends on so many things, like new variants, how vaccines work for them, public behaviour, and random luck.
> 
> It's possible that conditions will again overwhelm the hospitals, and in that situation, restrictions will have to come back. So I strongly recommend keeping realistic expectations and not getting into the mindset that "everything is opening now, this is done". I know this is hard to accept, but it's not any of our choices (and not the government's) choice to make.
> 
> If the dynamics of the virus spread overwhelms hospitals, then we are bringing back restrictions.


No argument on any of that. It will be interesting to see how any new restrictions would be introduced again and the precise form they would take. We don't live in precisely the same covid world as we did. I think the younger generations have probably had enough and I can't really blame them. I think they contributed more then I would have expected, but of course there are a lot exceptions in all age groups.

Thanks for your thoughts. Good luck. Stay safe.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Everyone intends to move, generally, towards ultimately removing restrictions. But I hope you realize that restrictions may still have to come back, *and this is not our choice to make*. It entirely depends on the resulting hospital load (and this has always been the case) so this is what drives the situation. It's out of our hands.


Unless it gets super bad, there is no public support for it.

The justification for restrictions ran out weeks ago, and it's clearly gone now.
Yet they insist on forcing them on us. They're labelling people terrorists for simply asking the governments to accept reality.

I though Ford did a good job, but on Monday he should have thrown out the restrictions (maybe kept masking), not say "wait till march".

The government has systematically destroyed their own credibility, and Canadians are fed up. 
But don't worry, despite the "Failure of Leadership", the NDP will still support the "leadership" of Trudeau.

I'm actually surprised how badly our institutions failed us. Most of all by the CPC for failing to provide a viable alternative.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> I cannot tell this board what a joy it is to log on and find out that Beaver has responded to one of my posts. I have noticed a few others have had a similar pleasure. It is kind of like waking up with a nasty rash.


 ... then enjoy the "joy" that I responded. Afterall, it's freedom of speech, no? As for labelling me as a nasty rash, don't you think that label is more suitable in describing you - posts after posts after posts with blah, blah, blah and more blahs of oh, just being a "messenger" ... of what ... "alternative" theories (LMAO).



> Beaver, I simply explained what I think will happen.


 ... that's your dream or your consultation with your crystal ball.



> Can you please stop attacking my posts. If you have something to debate then do so, but these childish responses provides no benefit to a reader. Grow up and try to be civil. If you don't like a poster, just ignore them.


 ... never attacked your posts, just merely pointing out the truths. And stop attacking my posts (and other members) which you can choose to ignore too. Again, no?



> I usually take a similar approach with you but it is difficult at times. You really are an annoying rash on this board.


 ... now it's the names-calling/labelling when you don't get things your way or be heard as legit.

Btw, I have been called plenty of names here - in fact, one of your supporters (the deliquent one in favour of RATs to make the pandemic go away - ROFLMAO) in agreement with your post is an expert at that. Tells alot about you and your posts.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Unless it gets super bad, *there is no public support for it.*
> 
> The justification for restrictions ran out weeks ago, and it's clearly gone now.


 ... for whom, or which sector of the public doesn't support it? So now it's easier to just paint the "public" with the same brush.


> Yet they insist on forcing them on us. They're labelling people terrorists for simply asking the governments to accept reality.


 .. no one is forcing no one on anything and certainly not the government. In fact, the government is caving in for the cry-babies - the anti-everythinger. 



> I though Ford did a good job, but on Monday he should have thrown out the restrictions (maybe kept masking), not say "wait till march".


 ... guess it's still not good enough for you. Ford has indicated he listens to the "science" aka his medical team and his Science Adivsory Table. Or would you rather him listen to you or "your public" doesn't support that. Besides, Ford ain't stupid with the upcoming election.



> The government has systematically destroyed their own credibility, and Canadians are fed up.
> But don't worry, despite the "Failure of Leadership", the NDP will still support the "leadership" of Trudeau.
> 
> I'm actually surprised how badly our institutions failed us. Most of all by the CPC for failing to provide a viable alternative.


 ...yeah, yeah, yeah, the politics. Maybe you should concern yourself with the CPC - first with what they want exactly? Or better yet face the reality the CPC's modus operandus is doing "flip-flops".


----------



## Money172375

My 1.5 cents.

this is, and always has been, about hospital capacity. Treatments to this day don’t seem that effective. I’ve heard once you’re in ICU or on a vent, you’re chances of recovery are small. Cities, provinces, states, countries with hospital capacity left things open…..others with limited capacity locked down. I think when this is all over, we’ll have real hard data to show that the chronically ill, obese, aged we’re at very great risk…while the general population was not. Being down in Florida recently reminded me of the obesity problem down there.

I think going forward, we need more hospital capacity, a greater emphasis on general health/wellbeing and development of plans where particular sectors of society can be locked down. Ie. if the next virus targets seniors…how do we lock them down and protect them. If it targets school aged children…..how do we protect them alone.

I was and still am in favour of most of what ontario did from the onset….given what we knew at that time.

I think all this will happen with time…..a thorough review of how each country performed AND HOW/WHY will be undertaken by someone smarter than me. The global learnings will come.

The next provincial and federal elections need to be about Health Care, and little else. It’s been broken in this country for too long.


----------



## sags

Nah...it will all be forgotten until the next crisis or election..


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> My 1.5 cents.
> 
> ...
> 
> I was and still am in favour of most of what ontario did from the onset….given what we knew at that time.
> 
> I think all this will happen with time…..a thorough review of how each country performed AND HOW/WHY will be undertaken by someone smarter than me. The global learnings will come.
> 
> *The next provincial and federal elections need to be about Health Care, and little else. It’s been broken in this country for too long.*


 ... I think it'll remain broken for even longer if not perpetually after we're done with the pandemic (even not officially). 

Just a couple of days ago, there was a headline from the TO Star (I posted) that stated Covid has caused a catastrophe on our healthcare systems. Imagine what another pandemic will do. Never say never.

I would be very happy first if one of our politician along with their arm-length's "medical" advisors (the non-***-kissing ones) can come up with a plan to alleviate this backlog "issue" of cancelled /postponed elective surgeries, healthcare treatments, etc. So far, I haven't heard of one other than "yeah, we're resuming them/some? the gradual approach". And that "gradual approach" is a March 1st, open up everything celebration for the whinies.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Nah...it will all be forgotten until the next crisis or election..


 ... most likely ... history tells the truth.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Nah...it will all be forgotten until the next crisis or election..


Of course, who do you think failed to restock the pandemic supplies?


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> You make a lot of good points, I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. Yes of course there is some balance to be found. We absolutely need to manage the load on hospitals, and that's a huge one. My biggest concern is the ability of the hospitals to operate normally.
> 
> Delaying exposures and slowing the rate of disease spread, may avoid having the hospitals flooded and overwhelmed. We have finite capacity, and we're losing staff all the time.
> 
> But I trust our Public Health leadership and have been following their guidance. I think they're sharp people. I don't want them to be politically pressured. Instead I want them to continue making the right decisions about health. Already, they are easing various restrictions (though some of this is politically motivated unfortunately).
> 
> I will follow the guidance of Public Health authorities. They have the best data and best expertise. As a society, we have delegated this responsibility to them.
> 
> Maybe I don't understand your position. Are you not "on board" with what your province's Public Health is advising? Practically every province is relaxing restrictions. They aren't going to end them overnight, as that would be reckless in a pandemic. From everything I see, the world is shifting in the direction you want.
> 
> What dissatisfies you about the current situation? Is it that you think public health measures are still too strict? Are you not willing to wait out the relaxing-rules path that's already under way?


Trudeau's advisory group recommended that they cancel all covid tests for fully vaccinated travellers. They basically said it had no purpose and was a waste of resources.


----------



## damian13ster

zinfit said:


> Trudeau's advisory group recommended that they cancel all covid tests for fully vaccinated travellers. They basically said it had no purpose and was a waste of resources.


And of course he didn't listen because screw science


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> No argument on any of that. It will be interesting to see how any new restrictions would be introduced again and the precise form they would take. We don't live in precisely the same covid world as we did. I think the younger generations have probably had enough and I can't really blame them. I think they contributed more then I would have expected, but of course there are a lot exceptions in all age groups.


The difficulty of getting people to adapt again is in fact one of the reasons to keep some restrictions ongoing, and NOT relax everything. If you ease everything now, people will have a harder time pivoting again when it's needed.

The young people are quite adaptable actually. To me it seems like the loudest voices and complaints are coming from middle age people.



MrMatt said:


> Unless it gets super bad, there is no public support for it.
> 
> The justification for restrictions ran out weeks ago, and it's clearly gone now.


What do you mean that the justification ran out weeks ago? Are you referring to hospitals being at peak capacity? They are still under very heavy loads and nowhere close to normal.

Do you think that nurses and doctors are suddenly not exhausted and worn out, just because cases are no longer at a peak? The ongoing heavy loads has worn out all healthcare workers. Shouldn't we be more considerate of them?


----------



## fstamand

sags said:


> Listen to the doctors working in the hospitals.
> 
> Ignore the politicians and Youtube "experts".


Here's where I think the 3rd dose is not necessary. I think we all can agree Omicron (at least the first strains) is behind us. And historically COVID cases have been very low in the summer.

I think we will see another appearance in October of a new strain and by then the 3rd dose would have lost much of it's potency. My opinion of course.


----------



## james4beach

fstamand said:


> I think we will see another appearance in October of a new strain and by then the 3rd dose would have lost much of it's potency. My opinion of course.


I agree, actually. Another problem with the third dose is that, even if it's effective against the current variant, they seem to lose effectiveness pretty fast. So people getting this shot in January may no longer be protected by July. We're going to need a fresh shot in time for fall/winter.

It also seems likely that we are going to start getting into the annual shot pattern, just like the flu shot. For someone like me who hasn't had the 3rd shot yet, it's now tempting to just wait until this fall or winter shot is available.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> The difficulty of getting people to adapt again is in fact one of the reasons to keep some restrictions ongoing, and NOT relax everything. If you ease everything now, people will have a harder time pivoting again when it's needed.


That would be close to the analogy of keeping a criminal in prison, after they served their full sentence, because we were concerned if they committed another crime it might be difficult to catch him again and lock him back up.

I know you know this but these restrictions come with significant costs. In money for sure, education for children and mental health issues for everyone.

My opinion here is kind of on the other side of your argument. I am actually hoping that we reduce restrictions and if we are lucky, we find it impossible to implement them again. I think they were getting a little too easy to implement politically, and that means we didn't look hard enough for better longer term solutions that might have a little higher immediate costs but with a much better longer term benefit. I know I am a broken record, but all these restrictions do is delay the medicine we are all going to have to take eventually. I am not sure those kind of benefits are worth the ongoing high costs of the delays. Delays also come with significant risks when you consider that new variants can hit us any time. All we've been doing right now is delaying our problems and allowing the virus to completely control our decisions. I think it is time to take back that control and accept that there will be some immediate costs but the time has come to take back our planet.

There is no better time. We have the least severe variant so far combined with the most vaccination we are ever going to get. With warm weather coming up, there will be no better time. Since we have become a little bit of a bunch of wussies, it would be better to burn the bridges behind us as we move forward, just to ensure that everyone understands, retreat is no longer an option. It's time for us all to grow a pair and let the planet know which species is back in charge again.

Just my opinion of course.


----------



## zinfit

It is always a challenge to eliminate controls when the control freaks have been in control. There is a limit to how much control you can impose on people in a democratic society. At some point people just ignore the controls and move on.


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## damian13ster

Just got an email that my company is eliminating weekly testing for unvaccinated. Now no longer required. Another step in the right direction


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> It is always a challenge to eliminate controls when the control freaks have been in control. There is a limit to how much control you can impose on people in a democratic society. At some point people just ignore the controls and move on.


We never had control freaks here, nor excessive restrictions. Canada had some of the mildest restrictions in global terms and continues to have just about no significant restrictions.

Do you guys have any idea what it's been like in other countries?

We've had it very easy. Even when Manitoba had inter-provincial restrictions and quarantine for example, it was just a sign on the wall. That was it. Children are in schools, people are in offices (if they want), we have freedom of mobility within Canada, and minimal disruption for travel outside Canada.

Considering we've had so few restrictions, and achieved one of the lowest death rates per capita among developed countries, I think we've managed the pandemic extremely well.

This is exactly what I love about Canada. We've always had a great balance and we've done it yet again. I admire Australia as well but they've been much more heavy-handed, and Canada probably achieved a better balance than Australia.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Just got an email that my company is eliminating weekly testing for unvaccinated. Now no longer required. Another step in the right direction


 ... I would agree it's another step in the right direction - time for all its employees to "physically" return to the office and do some "actual" work for a change, "collaborating" (on what I won't say).

Now I wonder when Tory (Toronto's mayor) is gonna RE-announce that - so we, "the taxpayers" can get some service for a change.


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> ... I think it'll remain broken for even longer if not perpetually after we're done with the pandemic (even not officially).
> 
> Just a couple of days ago, there was a headline from the TO Star (I posted) that stated Covid has caused a catastrophe on our healthcare systems. Imagine what another pandemic will do. Never say never.
> 
> I would be very happy first if one of our politician along with their arm-length's "medical" advisors (the non-***-kissing ones) can come up with a plan to alleviate this backlog "issue" of cancelled /posttponed elective surgeries, healthcare treatments, etc. So far, I haven't heard of one other than "yeah, we're resuming them/some? the gradual approach". And that "gradual approach" is a March 1st, open up everything celebration for the whinies.


 ... who does this bozo thinks he's kidding?

Modus operandus of *Ontario's top medical officer* (current) is "reactive", instead of "proactive", if not lie through his teeth.

How can there be more ICU beds when there aren't enough "regular" beds to begin with? And what more treatment(s) are there for Covid? More ventilators purchased? I haven't heard of that.

Why don't he just address the damned-backlog in the hospitals? Too scare or is it the competency issue?



> Mandatory vaccination policies for some sectors may no longer be needed, Ontario's top health official says
> ...
> _“We’ve got a very robust surveillance system, we can expand our PCR testing capacity if necessary, to try to deal with a new strain or variant. We’ve got plenty of public health experience and health system infrastructure are now in place, *more ICU beds, more treatment options for patients.* I think we’re in a much better position.”_


----------



## londoncalling

COVID Rates Jump After Denmark Lifts All Restrictions (webmd.com) 

Although not exactly the same here are some numbers out of Denmark who lifted all restrictions recently. Obviously, there is an expected increase in exposure, hospitalization and death rate as a result. Not sure if I have used the analogy here before but it can be compared to removing a bandaid. Do you do it quick and fast so it hurts real bad for a little bit? Or do you do it slowly and prepare yourself to manage more pain? Also, as long as it's not you that it is happening to there really is no pain at all other than someone making noise while they are suffering. I will reiterate that no organization, company, province, state, country or government has gotten this right because I don't believe there is a correct way to handle something as big as this. In my home province, we have been the least (or one of) restrictive and started removing restrictions as we "peaked". Is this the right way to go? yes? no? maybe? What I have noticed is that the pandemic and our collective response toward it has begun to take away our sense of humanity towards each other. Not an unexpected outcome but I am still none the less disappointed in our species.


----------



## OptsyEagle

The analogy would be better expressed that you can either rip off the band aid quicker or slower, but whatever way you do it, 38 million people have to suffer though watching it until it is finally removed.

Denmark infections should go up. Canada's will also. Anyone that thinks you will remove restrictions, let everyone gather together in bars/restaurants, etc., and in their homes and infections will not increase are either delusional or they are simply assuming we have already infected well over 70% of the population, at least.

Since I don't think we have exposed that many people, but I am fully aware that we have to, I think infections should rise. If we can get the majority of this infection wave in warmer weather I think we have a pretty good chance of not toppling our hospitals, while this infection wave goes up and then quickly comes back down, but that is a calculation that is difficult to be precise with. Even if we do topple our hospitals, and again, I don't think we will, if we do, it should not be for too long. That may sound cold but I am in the camp that the band aid is best ripped off as quickly as it can be, and if our future must hold a toppling healthcare system, for a short period of time, then that will be the pain we much endure to get this damn band aid off, for good. Anything else will pretty much just cause more suffering, when all pain and anguish is properly added to the final bill.


----------



## damian13ster

That was discussed before. Even government of Denmark came out against the disinformation.
Cases numbers are holding pretty steady since Jan 20.
Hospitalizations are going up; however, Denmark came out and said over 70% are incidental - found covid positive after being admitted for other reasons.
ICU numbers dropping steadily since Jan 10 and continue to drop
When it comes to deaths - you have to understand how they count it. They don't count people who have died of COVID. They count people who have died within 30 days of testing positive. 

The way countries count is the main reason for difference in deaths. Everyone claiming Peru did the worst, yet not many know that Peru counts ANY death that happens within *60 days* of positive test. Again, no matter what the cause is.

The misinformation about Denmark is so bad, they had to set up a webpage to fight it.








Typical misinformation regarding Danish COVID-numbers


Much misinformation and misunderstandings exist regarding Danish COVID-19 numbers. On this page, we answer some of the most typical ones.




en.ssi.dk




I am sorry that so many buy into the fake news


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> ...
> 
> The misinformation about Denmark is so bad, they had to set up a webpage to fight it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Typical misinformation regarding Danish COVID-numbers
> 
> 
> Much misinformation and misunderstandings exist regarding Danish COVID-19 numbers. On this page, we answer some of the most typical ones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.ssi.dk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry that so many buy into the fake news


 ... right, and the very first paragraph has this Note:


> ...
> _Note: *Hospitalised because of COVID-19 means that a person is admitted to hospital because of COVID-19.* Hospitalised with COVID-19 means that a person is hospitalised and has a positive PCR-test. _*It does not mean that the person is admitted to hospital because of COVID-19.*


 ... so which is it? Do they know what they're talking about? Or is it because they can't make up their mind? Or is it because there is no English translation for some Danish rubbish on a (supposedly) professional "expert" website. Talk about trying to "prove" there's misinformation by others when the misinformation is coming right from the horse's mouth.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I don't really care if Denmark's numbers are going up or down since both have a positive outlook in my opinion. It appears to me that Denmark has finally acknowledged that human intervention cannot stop this virus, only delay the exposure that each citizen, in their country, will eventually get. They also appear to have noticed that Omicron is less dangerous then previous variants and is finally taking the appropriate steps needed to end their pandemic. Those steps are quite simple. Remove restrictions and stop getting in the way of this virus, moving through the country, which when completed, should finally neutralize the remaining danger from it, and finally, bring this pandemic to an end.

Sounds like a good plan to me. Better then any others I've heard lately.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Then why comment with your post #1128 and now post #1131, if you don't care about Denmark's numbers?


----------



## OptsyEagle

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Then why comment with your post #1128 and now post #1131, if you don't care about Denmark's numbers?


Just trying to help people understand why Denmark is doing what they are doing. What can be achieved and how that might work when Canada goes the same way. My only interest in Denmark's situation is to observe the possible outcomes that should be coming our way soon. As I said, a case can be made that Denmark's infection rate will rise from where it is today or decline from where it is today. I am just watching them to find out which way they go, but both scenarios offers a better future, although one might be a little better then the other.


----------



## sags

Demark's cases are doubling every couple of days. There is a huge increase in hospitalizations and deaths. Opening up was a really bad idea.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> Just trying to help people understand why Denmark is doing what they are doing. What can be achieved and how that might work when Canada goes the same way. My only interest in Denmark's situation is to observe the possible outcomes that should be coming our way soon. As I said, a case can be made that Denmark's infection rate will rise from where it is today or decline from where it is today. I am just watching them to find out which way they go, but both scenarios offers a better future, although one might be a little better then the other.


 ... no need for you to "help people understand" why Denmark is doing ... as why pick Denmark? Look at any other European country - open up before the pandemic has been declared over - you'll see a rise in infection, guaranteed. Have a look at the countries in Asia. How about Australia instead?

No country on this planet has a proper hold on the pandemic. It's all trials and errors with lots of praying and hope. 

Some do better than others but taking the necessary measures whilst others want to sell their souls to the economic devil.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Demark's cases are doubling every couple of days. There is a huge increase in hospitalizations and deaths. Opening up was a really bad idea.


 ... I don't disbelieve you ... just look at the trend(s) of other "opened up" countries.


----------



## doctrine

sags said:


> Demark's cases are doubling every couple of days. There is a huge increase in hospitalizations and deaths. Opening up was a really bad idea.


I'm afraid this doesn't look like current information, please quote the doubling rate for cases. Publicly available data suggests cases are nearing a 1 month low and starting the same rapid drop in most other countries. Hospitalizations are still going up but of course those lag and they have few actual serious cases in the ICU. While deaths are as high as they've been on a relative level, Denmark still has a significantly lower death rate than even Canada. Even more remarkable given they have done so with far fewer restrictions and mandates. I'm afraid Denmark is going to disappoint those looking for an example of why not to open up and to stay with mandates - it is heading in the exact opposite direction. Denmark COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer


----------



## damian13ster

Also, 40% of those in hospital are incidental.
Deaths is closer to 70% being incidental (again, they count anyone who died within 30 days of a test, no matter how they died).









Typical misinformation regarding Danish COVID-numbers


Much misinformation and misunderstandings exist regarding Danish COVID-19 numbers. On this page, we answer some of the most typical ones.




en.ssi.dk


----------



## james4beach

Queen Elizabeth has covid.









The Queen tests positive for Covid


She has mild symptoms and expects to continue "light duties" at Windsor, Buckingham Palace says.



www.bbc.com


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Queen Elizabeth has covid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Queen tests positive for Covid
> 
> 
> She has mild symptoms and expects to continue "light duties" at Windsor, Buckingham Palace says.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


 ... I haven't read the link but woudn't be suprised Prince Charles gave it to her. Afterall, this is his 2nd bout (aka re-infection) with it. 

And if anything happens to the Queen, well, not only is he next inline for the monarchy (aside from Queen Consort Camilla), Britons will know who to blame.

Btw1, Camilla has been infected too.

Btw2, just in - Justin Bieber caught Covid or is just the flu?


----------



## sags

Feb. 17, 2022 -- Since Denmark became the first major country to lift its remaining coronavirus restrictions at the beginning of February, *it has recorded more COVID-19 cases per capita than most other places in the world.

COVID-19 hospitalizations and deaths have jumped by nearly a third*, signaling a warning to the U.S. and other countries that are now easing mask mandates, vaccine requirements, and limits for crowded spaces such as bars and nightclubs, according to Yahoo News.

*“Not looking good in Denmark. Deaths are now 67% of peak with a steep ascent,*” Eric Topol, MD, director of the Scripps Research Translational Institute, wrote in a Twitter post this week.

He shared charts that showed sharp increases in COVID-19 cases, hospital admissions, and deaths from early February to mid-February. In a response to comments, he linked to a news story from September, when Denmark previously lifted all restrictions before cases climbed again.

*“The world is looking to Denmark as a guide to removing all restrictions,” Topol said. “It seems that we’ve seen this movie before.”*









COVID Rates Jump After Denmark Lifts All Restrictions


Since Denmark became the first major country to lift its remaining coronavirus restrictions at the beginning of February, it has recorded more COVID-19 cases per capita than most other places in the world.




www.webmd.com


----------



## doctrine

I think I already said the problem with all of the Denmark statistics. Shall I say it again? Denmark, even after the latest wave and this big spike, still has one of the best health records against COVID-19, with a death rate 20% lower than Canada and almost 80% lower than the US. And their case rate, perhaps indeed the highest in the world this month, is already at a 1 month low and falling rapidly. Their ICUs are practically empty. Denmark is a textbook example of high vaccination rates and good health care allowing less restrictions and more freedom.

Coming through this wave with one of the highest vaccination and booster rates in the entire world, with a high number of actual cases, will give Denmark one of the most resistant populations in the entire world. Everyone in Denmark isn't going to get Omicron twice this month. Watch their case and hospitalizations plummet, like they are everywhere else. It completely makes sense they are opening up.

Next up: Ontario. Look for announcements on vaccine mandates to be lifted this week.


----------



## james4beach

No question Denmark has done well throughout the pandemic, but the fact remains that their deaths during this wave hit a new all time high, exceeding any previous wave. We've got to remember that omicron is still dangerous (and still kills). It's killed a record number of people in Denmark.

Thankfully, Canada kept restrictions up during the worst of omicron while Denmark was relaxing things during their wave.


----------



## s1231

Denmark & England looks aiming to balance out of overall risks instead of localized one (sars2).
(reducing the stresses--- mental health for all age, economy & funds, disruption of education & business etc.)

Danish may have less underlying health conditions than Canadian
and majorities may had infected ---(not sure).
also each individual made effort on flatting the curb without enforcement on this winter. (behavior changed)
so, Dr Camilla Holten-Møller 's modelling may fit to Danish but not sure other countries.

(my understanding) key point on this movement:
care others, common sense, trust, work together, balancing out,
separate from political influence etc.





UnHerd, Jan 31, 2022
Freddie Sayers meets Dr Camilla Holten-Møller, chair of the Expert Group for Mathematical Modelling at Denmark’s public health agency ‘Statens Serum Institut’.

Holten-Møller was in charge of producing the models before Christmas that informed Danish policy, and her group’s updated advice in January led to the cancellation of all Danish Covid restrictions (even as case numbers continue to climb to all-time highs). She joins UnHerd to discuss Denmark's radical new policy, data modelling and why Omicron might be the end of the pandemic.

---








Typical misinformation regarding Danish COVID-numbers


Much misinformation and misunderstandings exist regarding Danish COVID-19 numbers. On this page, we answer some of the most typical ones.




en.ssi.dk





Statens Serum Institut (SSI) is under the auspices of the Danish Ministry of Health.
Our main duty is to ensure preparedness against infectious diseases
and biological threats as well as control of congenital disorders.


----------



## james4beach

Deaths in Denmark during this wave exceeded peak deaths of previous waves. You can see in the chart below that this was also a pretty long ramp up, so the total # of deaths is going to exceed the deaths of the last wave.

What complicates this is uncertainty about how these deaths are counted. I spent a half hour looking but can't get clear information on it. It's possible (and let's hope!) that these deaths include any death where someone tested positive for Covid (that would be an incidental death). But I am not sure that's how it's counted. It actually varies by country. It is POSSIBLE that these include incidental deaths, and may not entirely be deaths *due to* Covid.

This Danish article seems to be saying that the deaths figure (shown in the graph below) is inflated by people testing positive for Covid, around time of death, but it does not necessarily mean they died due to covid.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Nothing to discuss here. Everyone is triple vaccinated with highly effective vaccines. Return to normal as soon as possible, and treat covid infection as other respiratory infection. ✅ 
Done. 
Everything else is pure political speculation.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Moe says Sask. still on course to end COVID-19 measures by month's end *

Moe reiterated his caucus’ belief that the public is more willing to accept the continued risk of the pandemic than ongoing measures requiring residents to wear masks in indoor public places and self-isolate if they test positive for the virus. Those measures will expire on Feb. 28.


----------



## s1231

james4beach said:


> What complicates this is uncertainty about how these deaths are counted.


One of my friend told me she personally knows 3 person had passed away by not from sars2 
but death certificate was shown by it. ( Canada)
Other people said, die by traffic accident but covid test show positive then count on to covid death.

Is it true those counts make benefit to hospital? and why?
If so, a lot of misleads counts on the data.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> Deaths in Denmark during this wave exceeded peak deaths of previous waves. You can see in the chart below that this was also a pretty long ramp up, so the total # of deaths is going to exceed the deaths of the last wave.
> 
> What complicates this is uncertainty about how these deaths are counted. I spent a half hour looking but can't get clear information on it. It's possible (and let's hope!) that these deaths include any death where someone tested positive for Covid (that would be an incidental death). But I am not sure that's how it's counted. It actually varies by country. It is POSSIBLE that these include incidental deaths, and may not entirely be deaths *due to* Covid.
> 
> This Danish article seems to be saying that the deaths figure (shown in the graph below) is inflated by people testing positive for Covid, around time of death, but it does not necessarily mean they died due to covid.
> 
> View attachment 22843


Yes, that is precisely how it is counted. And the Serum Institute website fighting misinformation states that.
They count any death for whatever reason of a person that tested positive within last 30 days.


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> Yes, that is precisely how it is counted. And the Serum Institute website fighting misinformation states that.
> They count any death for whatever reason of a person that tested positive within last 30 days.


Have you found any stats showing Denmark's deaths due to Covid? I wonder what that graph would look like.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> No question Denmark has done well throughout the pandemic, but the fact remains that their deaths during this wave hit a new all time high, exceeding any previous wave. We've got to remember that omicron is still dangerous (and still kills). It's killed a record number of people in Denmark.
> 
> Thankfully, Canada kept restrictions up during the worst of omicron while Denmark was relaxing things during their wave.


Two important factors to consider. Omicron came to Denmark a little later then it did us. On Christmas, around 1/2 of all Danish infections were still the more dangerous Delta variant. Deaths, as measured by deaths per infection, the better measurement of severity, since everyone on the planet will be getting exposed eventually, shows their death rate at the lowest level ever. The worse one can say about Danish deaths is that they decided to deal with whatever problem they had quicker, so as to put it behind them in order to end the suffering of its citizens quicker. As opposed to us, who still have our problems to face.


----------



## sags

It looks like they are spinning the statistics and basically just removed all restrictions, let the covid loose and hope for the best,

It hasn't worked well in the past but maybe this time will be different ?


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> It looks like they are spinning the statistics and basically just removed all restrictions, let the covid loose and hope for the best,
> 
> It hasn't worked well in the past but maybe this time will be different ?


It will.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> It will.


 ... sounds like a guarantee and if it won't, then what? You do the disappearing act? For one, I know Ontario's top doc will be taking a mandatory hiatus.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

2 Years of Lies - Rumble










2 Years of Lies


Let's keep in touch in case cancel culture comes for us! Subscribe to our free newsletter: https://www.peoplespartyofcanada.ca/newsletter_en. Support the PPC by making a tax-deductible donation: https




rumble.com




*2 Years of Lies*


----------



## Beaver101

Ukrainiandude said:


> 2 Years of Lies - Rumble
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 Years of Lies
> 
> 
> Let's keep in touch in case cancel culture comes for us! Subscribe to our free newsletter: https://www.peoplespartyofcanada.ca/newsletter_en. Support the PPC by making a tax-deductible donation: https
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rumble.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *2 Years of Lies*


 ... from one of your favourite websites that spews nothing but the truth - to its followers of course, I presumed.

Rumble (website) - Wikipedia



> ...
> 
> _Other prominent conservatives, such as Dinesh D’Souza, Sean Hannity, and Representative Jim Jordan, soon followed.[1][4][5]* Former US President Donald Trump officially joined Rumble on June 26, 2021, in preparation for recording his Ohio campaign rally.[6]*
> 
> A lot of Rumble's traffic is referred from Parler.[7] Using data from February 2021, researchers studying conspiracy theories and misinformation about COVID-19 noted that several content creators have gained a receptive audience on Rumble after their productions have been pulled from YouTube or Facebook. They include Del Bigtree, Sherri Tenpenny, and Simone Gold.[8][9][10] *According to a June 2021 article from Slate, "Pavlovski has recently become more outspoken in accusing Big Tech of censorship and now actively courts prominent conservatives and intellectual dark web figures to join Rumble*._"[5] ...


 ... bolded parts are enough said.


----------



## Spudd

s1231 said:


> One of my friend told me she personally knows 3 person had passed away by not from sars2
> but death certificate was shown by it. ( Canada)
> Other people said, die by traffic accident but covid test show positive then count on to covid death.
> 
> Is it true those counts make benefit to hospital? and why?
> If so, a lot of misleads counts on the data.


I think your friend is lying. How would she know what was on the death certificate for 3 different people? Most people do not discuss what's on the death certificates of their relatives.

The way death certificates are filled out is the doctor determines what they consider the primary cause of death and they fill it out with that. They can include multiple causes (example, someone has lung cancer and gets pneumonia, both will contribute to their death). Here's a link to the CDC guide to filling out death certificates (PDF). The section on cause of death starts on page 9. 

Covid deaths do not benefit hospitals. Here's an article from Fox News that discusses both your questions:








Fact check: How are COVID-19 deaths counted, do hospitals get money for COVID-19 deaths?


(WLUK) -- Since the pandemic started, FOX 11 has received questions from viewers asking if hospitals are being paid for every COVID-19 death, and questions about how COVID deaths are counted. How COVID-19 deaths are counted. Determining the cause of death is up to a coroner, medical examiner or...




fox11online.com


----------



## newfoundlander61

Over the past couple of winters with mask wearing I have not gotten a cold or sick in any way. First time ever, so masks do work for controlling the spread of germs thats for sure.


----------



## OptsyEagle

BBC article explaining why England is their covid laws and restrictions on Thursday.









Covid: Is England ready for its last remaining rule to be ditched?


The virus has undoubtedly been tamed. But is it really the right time to treat it like many other illnesses?



www.bbc.com





I will point everyone to this chart below, for England. It is one of the few charts I have seen lately that measures the death risk properly, so we can evaluate the current risk we actually face. When you consider that no country actually captures all the cases of covid, meaning that the actual death risk is even lower then what is shown in the graph, it should be clear that this Omicron virus, combined with our strong immunity, is no where near the same danger to us that it use to be and it is definitely time to drop our own regulations and go on with our lives.


----------



## Beaver101

newfoundlander61 said:


> Over the past couple of winters with mask wearing I have not gotten a cold or sick in any way. First time ever, so masks do work for controlling the spread of germs thats for sure.


 ... short of staying away from the lepers, last line of defense.


----------



## sags

Opening up may be the easy part.

The hard part is if the hospitalizations, ICUs and death cases rise dramatically, can the government re-apply the restrictions ?

Even if there was a new variant, more contagious and deadly......would the public accept restrictions again ?

Can they put the genie back in the bottle if needed, or would they be forced to just let all hell break loose.

As I learned as a parent, when you give your kids something.....like giving them a car, it is hard to take it away from them even if circumstances demand it.

It is likely to be a noisy, angry, acrimonious battle.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Lockdowns don't really solve anything, but more just kick the problem down the road. Therefore, I think it is best if our governments struggle with trying to implement them again. There are just too many people that falsely feel safer with them and that allowed our governments to resort to them too quickly. It is definitely time for a new approach and sometimes change needs to be forced as opposed to permitted.

The risk of this virus is very low now so opening up is the only logical approach. For those that have not noticed this reduced danger, that I have been speaking of constantly, it has become obvious to me that opening up will be the only way to get them to observe it. In any case, it appears that our governments have at least noticed it and at the end of the day, that is probably the most important group to see it.


----------



## s1231

Spudd said:


> I think your friend is lying. How would she know what was on the death certificate for 3 different people? Most people do not discuss what's on the death certificates of their relatives.
> 
> The way death certificates are filled out is the doctor determines what they consider the primary cause of death and they fill it out with that. They can include multiple causes (example, someone has lung cancer and gets pneumonia, both will contribute to their death). Here's a link to the CDC guide to filling out death certificates (PDF). The section on cause of death starts on page 9.
> 
> Covid deaths do not benefit hospitals. Here's an article from Fox News that discusses both your questions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact check: How are COVID-19 deaths counted, do hospitals get money for COVID-19 deaths?
> 
> 
> (WLUK) -- Since the pandemic started, FOX 11 has received questions from viewers asking if hospitals are being paid for every COVID-19 death, and questions about how COVID deaths are counted. How COVID-19 deaths are counted. Determining the cause of death is up to a coroner, medical examiner or...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fox11online.com


Thanks, I've check into more this.
I guess, the earning story came from April 2020.
human nature, it is likely make a decision toward better incentive. (conscious or without conscious)

Don't get me wrong that I'm appreciating Dr. & nurse's hard work.
anyway, can't say the incentive didn't influenced to the data.

as for about my friend, lying isn't fit her.
fitting words would be honest, generous, hard worker. down to earth.
anyway, it made me wondering how many more counted like that on reflecting to the data.
She's not anti vaxxer. (just clarify)









Fact check: Hospitals get paid more if patients listed as COVID-19, on ventilators


Hospitals are paid more for Medicare patients with COVID-19, but a senator who first said that says he doesn't think the system is being gamed.



www.usatoday.com





USA TODAY reached out to Marty Makary, a surgeon and professor of health policy and management at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, about the claim. Makary said in an email April 21 that "what Scott Jensen said sounds right to me."

Makary did not elaborate, answer additional questions or respond to a request for an interview.

USA TODAY reached out to the American Hospital Association and Federation of American Hospitals on April 22, but as of publication had not received a response.

PolitiFact reporter Tom Kertscher wrote, "The dollar amounts Jensen cited are roughly what we found in an analysis published April 7 by the Kaiser Family Foundation, a leading source of health information."

Our ruling: True
We rate the claim that hospitals get paid more if patients are listed as COVID-19 and on ventilators as TRUE.

Hospitals and doctors do get paid more for Medicare patients diagnosed with COVID-19 or if it's considered presumed they have COVID-19 absent a laboratory-confirmed test, and three times more if the patients are placed on a ventilator to cover the cost of care and loss of business resulting from a shift in focus to treat COVID-19 cases.

This higher allocation of funds has been made possible under the Coronavirus Aid, Relief and Economic Security Act through a Medicare 20% add-on to its regular payment for COVID-19 patients, as verified by USA TODAY through the American Hospital Association Special Bulletin on the topic.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> Lockdowns don't really solve anything, but more just kick the problem down the road


What do you mean by "lockdown" exactly? Perhaps the only one was Quebec's curfew. Have you ever experienced a "lockdown" yourself? I haven't.

I don't think anyone is advocating for lockdowns. I'm advocating for caution, such as mandatory masks and capacity limits -- so that we don't have uncontrolled community spread.

There are some advantages to kicking the can down the road:

1. It's better to get sick in nicer months than February. Better outcomes in better seasons.
2. Medical treatments keep improving.

For me these are both reasons to delay catching covid. We suspect that my aunt has long COVID as she's having weird and persistent symptoms and inflammation that is not going away. Having [long] Covid in the middle of a brutal winter is not fun. She *would have* been better off catching this in May.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> What do you mean by "lockdown" exactly? Perhaps the only one was Quebec's curfew. Have you ever experienced a "lockdown" yourself? I haven't.
> 
> I don't think anyone is advocating for lockdowns. I'm advocating for caution, such as mandatory masks and capacity limits -- so that we don't have uncontrolled community spread.
> 
> There are some advantages to kicking the can down the road:
> 
> 1. It's better to get sick in nicer months than February. Better outcomes in better seasons.
> 2. Medical treatments keep improving.
> 
> For me these are both reasons to delay catching covid. We suspect that my aunt has long COVID as she's having weird and persistent symptoms and inflammation that is not going away. Having [long] Covid in the middle of a brutal winter is not fun. She *would have* been better off catching this in May.


I call closing restaurants and limiting private gatherings lockdowns.

I won't argue with the theoretical idea that the future may bring some benefits from delay, because they MIGHT bring us some new drugs or treatments, but unfortuneately they might not as well, AND they always come with an outrageous cost. That cost is way too high in my opinion just to pay for hope. Hope that is not needed nearly as much anymore.

As for your Aunt. You need to understand that there will be no month that catching covid will be a good time and again, we cannot expect everyone in our society to pay an outrageous cost just so your aunt can have her covid in May. I doubt you would expect that either. If your point is that covid is safer in May then January, I will accept that, but it is February now, soon to be March. Definitely time to get opening things up.

At least you seem to be coming around to the idea that your aunt was going to get it sometime. I am still fighting many on this board who think we are all paying these costs so certain groups, usually with them included, can avoid covid. That will not happen, and again these delays are very, very expensive to accomplish. Expensive in money, expensive in childhood education and development, expensive in happiness for everyone in every age group. Just too expensive all around.

Lastly the evidence is showing this current variant, combined with our immunity, is about the significance of the flu, and for most of us it will be a bad cold. If Omicron had of been the first variant and we had the immunity we do now, we would not even be having this conversation because there would be no pandemic. That would have been ridiculous.


----------



## wayward__son

There was a Brown university study released last summer that showed children born during COVID19 had significantly reduced verbal, motor, and overall cognitive performance compared to children born pre-pandemic. The study suggested environmental factors from pandemic measures could explain the difference (less interaction with other infants, less attention from parents, etc). The study had not been through peer review and anyway long term effects (eg can the IQ deficit be recovered in later stages of childhood and adolescence) won't be known until further down the road but the point is we have no idea the consequences of these massive changes to the functioning of our societies that have happened since COVID19 broke.

I am also still massively flummoxed by how sharp the left/right divide is on what is a hugely complex cost/benefit calculation. Yes, there is a clear ideological divide on individualism vs collectivism, but there are so many other issues and trade-offs -- ensuring healthy environment for early childhood, teenage and young adult socialization and development, the financial survival of people who do not have white collar remote-friendly jobs, expansion of govt bureaucracies and regulations which have economic, political and social costs (I'm old enough to remember pre-911 air travel, what a dream that was), deteriorating fiscal situation of our government from all the spending needed to attempt to paper over economic cracks. The fact that this issue is so polarizing hints to me that we are in deep sh-t as a society. We are just monkeys that picked our teams and now just spend all day mindlessly flinging poop at the other team.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I think for the most part we will all be OK. Most of these issues that seem to get everyone's blood flowing should move into the history books, for the most part, after we finally end this pandemic.

Our children did take the brunt of it with their stall on social development and education but at least it was not just Canadian children but children from every part of the world. So I am hopeful they will be able to overcome this set back and prevail, but it is imperative that we stop this nonsense now.

From a pandemic perspective, I see the world in 3 groups. About 25% or so seem to understand how the change that vaccination, community exposure and the reduction in severity that Omicron possesses has significantly reduced the threat this virus now has. Luckily for us we can add most of our government leaders to that group as well. If you want you could add the deniers, from the beginning, but lets leave them out.

The next group is the largest group who don't really give Covid much thought at all. They go on with their lives when restrictions are reduced and try to abide by all the rules and seem to trust the government in most aspects of their approach.

The last group is more concerning, however, and I have noticed that this board tends to have a few too many of these. They probably make up at least 25% of the world's population and include a few too many high ranking scientists as well. This is a group that seem to want to ignore the current signs of opportunity and optimism and hang on to the many ideas of eminent danger, that they had identified from the past. They are wrong, but I believe they will need actual real life experience to adjust their opinions to these new facts, that are definitely showing up in more updated studies and the daily covid stats. The only concern I have is the size of this population and their remaining ability to propel political decisions and therefore, possibly get in the way of us finally ending this pandemic. I don't think they actually will be able to pull that off, but that is not as certain, as the reduced threat of the virus is, and therefore, they are now our only remaining threat to ending this pandemic.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> What do you mean by "lockdown" exactly? Perhaps the only one was Quebec's curfew. Have you ever experienced a "lockdown" yourself? I haven't.


I consider the Ontario stay at home order a lockdown.

I don't think you where here, but they were ticketing people who were out rollerblading.
They banned meeting people outside your household, or gatherings (except BLM protests for some reason)

Even now they have restrictions on where you can go, what you can do etc.
There are clearly restrictions, but I wouldn't call the current level a lockdown.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I consider the Ontario stay at home order a lockdown.


 ... like the requirement from your employer to stay and work from home? LMAO. Ontario never even had a curfew (unlike Quebec), let alone being "stay at home" like you were forced too or your front doors (and windows) bolted shut by the LockDown Cops.



> I don't think you where here, but they were ticketing people who were out rollerblading.


 ... how many people? 3 - 2 kids & a father. That was a one off by an overzealous by-law inept officer and I'm sure that ticket was retracted. Now it is not the spin-tactic but deployment of the exaggeration tactic.



> They banned meeting people outside your household, or gatherings (except BLM protests for some reason)


 ... still can't get over the BLM. Yeah, the cops banned meeting people outside your household as if they were surveillancing you. Isn't auto-street-meets at the mall lot abit too old for you?



> Even now they have restrictions on where you can go, what you can do etc.


 ...there were no restrictions as to "where" you can go in Ontario ever, let alone now unless LTCs and hospitals are your favourite places of visit. The only restrictions were capacity limits and that certain industries not being able to open due to inherent gatherings and capacity overflow (eg. cinemas and stadiums). And these 'restrictions' were placed there for your protection. Not to choke-off those industries. How hard is it to understand that inconvenience?


> There are clearly restrictions, but I wouldn't call the current level a lockdown.


 ... was never a "lockdown" in Ontario. Some people have such great imagination on what they want to narrate. What an overgrown whinie.


----------



## james4beach

There is some new data from the CDC regarding waning immunity after a 3rd dose. This is with omicron. The results are similar to what Israel saw earlier with delta.

The problem is that the effectiveness from boosters is lost relatively quickly, within the span of a few months. It depends on what "benefit" we're talking about, but consider the acute and semi-serious situations, like having to visit Emergency or Urgent Care. Not deadly, but bad enough to take you to Urgent Care.

Within the first 2 months of a third dose, effectiveness was 87%
At 4 months, this effectiveness declined to 66%

So it sounds to me like the booster will only be useful for roughly 6 - 9 months if you expect it to prevent you from getting noticeable symptoms.

However the good news is that *benefit from very severe outcomes / deaths appears to persist much better.* That's for both 2 or 3 shots, and this is great news.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I think Ontario estimated similar numbers to what they are finding in Quebec, at least with respect to the overall percentage of the population exposed, from the last wave. Quebec found that:



> Boileau said a study shows that at least 30 per cent of children in Montreal have antibodies to the coronavirus, either because of vaccination or exposure to the virus. The highest level of antibodies — 97 per cent — is in teens age 12-17, the study shows.


You can be pretty sure that if 97% of those kids 12-17 had exposure from either the virus or vaccine, their parents were exposed to one or the other as well.

It appears to me that this should be the last year for covid-19. Maybe one more wave ahead of us, and hopefully not a dangerous one if it comes this summer (we may not even notice it) and we can finally put all this nonsense into the history books. There are just way too many of these positive observations around now to derive any other conclusion.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/a-third-of-quebecers-in-contact-covid-1.6361687


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> You can be pretty sure that if 97% of those kids 12-17 had exposure from either the virus or vaccine, their parents were exposed to one or the other as well.


Yes, the children were the main vector for omicron. Though in BC, we're also seeing insanely high positivity rates in younger children as well, so I just think school is driving the entire thing.

@OptsyEagle you'd better hope that a mutation doesn't start making this more deadly, otherwise we can kiss those kids and young adults goodbye.

Since nobody has any interest in preventing disease spread any more, we're now just gambling that variants aren't harmful to young people. Shrug. Of course the Asian countries aren't this stupid, and try much harder to protect their people.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> *Yes, the children were the main vector for omicron. Though in BC, we're also seeing insanely high positivity rates in younger children as well, so I just think school is driving the entire thing.*
> 
> @OptsyEagle you'd better hope that a mutation doesn't start making this more deadly, otherwise we can kiss those kids and young adults goodbye.
> 
> Since nobody has any interest in preventing disease spread any more, we're now just gambling that variants aren't harmful to young people. Shrug. Of course the Asian countries aren't this stupid, and try much harder to protect their people.


 ... interesting stats with B.C., Canada which I haven't read in the news yet.

Well, the loudmouth mayor Brown of Brampton, Ontario wants all masks removed NOW in school 'cause Quebec is doing so. 

Reason being, it's inconvenient /hard for his "two-and-a-half-year-old" kid as a "toddler" to "wear one" during "soccer practice". As to where, I dunno as he didn't say so. LMAO.


----------



## Beaver101

Vaccines, masks required at universities despite broader relaxing of restrictions

Just saw the above article despite dated 2 days ago:

_



The Canadian Press
Published Tuesday, February 22, 2022 2:29PM EST

Several Canadian universities are maintaining COVID-19 precautions such as vaccine mandates and masking for students attending in-person classes even as governments roll back pandemic restrictions.

*In Ontario, Western University, York University and the University of Guelph say they're keeping their COVID-19 vaccination and masking requirements in place for students and staff until at least the end of the current winter semester.

Other schools in Ontario, including the University of Toronto, say they aren't making any changes to their COVID-19 vaccine policies and continue to consult with the government and public health officials on the issue.*

Ontario's top doctor said last week that vaccine policies at post-secondary institutions have served their purpose and should be dropped.

The province is ending its vaccine certificate system on March 1, when capacity limits in public settings and restrictions on social gathering sizes will fully lift as well, though masking requirements will remain for now.

In Alberta, the University of Calgary and the University of Alberta say they're suspending their vaccination mandates when on-campus learning resumes next week* but will keep their masking requirements in place despite the province's plan to drop that measure as of March 1.*

Click to expand...

_ ... I'm guessing Alberta unis are having 2nd thoughts about removing that pesky restriction/requirement.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> @OptsyEagle you'd better hope that a mutation doesn't start making this more deadly, otherwise we can kiss those kids and young adults goodbye.
> 
> Since nobody has any interest in preventing disease spread any more, we're now just gambling that variants aren't harmful to young people. Shrug. Of course the Asian countries aren't this stupid, and try much harder to protect their people.


Sure. Unfortuneately we cannot expect our leaders to enact rules today, that are contrary to our benefit right now, because of a concern of something that might or might not happen in the future.

I am not as worried about new variants as many may be. Of course I have no knowledge of a variant that we have not seen yet, so I can only go on what I do know. Omicron, as we should know by now, is seriously less lethal then previous variants. Probably the biggest reason for its reduce severity is due to the immunity that our citizens have developed from both vaccination and 2 years of exposure to variants of the past. We know that Omicron is vaccine evasive by its increased ability to infect fully vaccinated people but even with its evasiveness, our vaccines and previous infections were able to take the severity out of it. There are other reason's for the reduced severity of Omicron, but our immunity probably makes up the biggest component of it.

So with that said, I suspect if we get all the exposure we need, from both vaccination and exposure to this multi-mutated version we know as Omicron, future variants should not be nearly as deadly to us, as our worse fears tend to imagine they can be. Of course only the future will give us the correct answer, but for now, I am comfortable with the information we have today and the logical outcome that information portrays for our future.


----------



## Money172375

South African guy next to me said they will soon roll out 4th does to its population.
I think by this winter, the COVID booster will form part of the flu Shot…….take it if you want.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> South African guy next to me said they will soon roll out 4th does to its population.
> *I think by this winter, the COVID booster will form part of the flu Shot*…….take it if you want.


 ... if this is the case, then either the "Covid pandemic" has ended or the "annual flu pandemic" has begun. Nothing better than to muddle the two.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Money172375 said:


> South African guy next to me said they will soon roll out 4th does to its population.
> I think by this winter, the COVID booster will form part of the flu Shot…….take it if you want.


Isn't having a South African guy right next to you the equivalent of a booster shot? lol


----------



## Beaver101

Health Canada warns of risks of ingesting or spilling COVID-19 rapid test solution



> _The Canadian Press
> Published Thursday, February 24, 2022 5:22PM EST
> 
> OTTAWA - Health Canada is warning Canadians of the potential risks associated with accidentally ingesting or spilling COVID-19 rapid antigen test kit solutions on the skin after hearing about dozens of calls to poison control centres.
> 
> The agency issued a public advisory on the federal government's website on Thursday, saying it is aware of approximately 50 calls related to accidental exposure, which have resulted in minor health outcomes.
> 
> Health Canada said it was advising Canadians on “a precautionary basis” of the risks associated with misuse, accidental ingestion or skin exposure.
> 
> *The agency said the tests are safe and effective when used properly, but many kits include liquid solutions with chemical preservatives - including sodium azide and Proclin - that may be poisonous if swallowed or absorbed through the skin.*_
> 
> _*Health Canada said small children and pets are especially vulnerable to adverse effects, even from small doses.*
> ..._


 ... I had no idea its contents were poisonous. Never had to use one.

And now the question - is it safe to just dispose these in regular household garbage?


----------



## james4beach

I still think we should ask ourselves if we're really smarter at handling disease outbreaks than Asian countries. Think about their experience with it.

There are many Korean and Japanese people around where I live, and they're always wearing at least KN95 masks, often N99 level masks. They seem to have a far more cautious attitude to this than a typical Canadian. For example there's a Korean hairdresser around here, and I take a peek in their window as I walk by... I have never seen anyone with less than a N99 (such as CAN99) grade mask.

Then I walk over to the next salon, and most people inside have *no* masks at all (even employees). White people don't seem to like masks.

Who do you think is being smarter?


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> I still think we should ask ourselves if we're really smarter at handling disease outbreaks than Asian countries. Think about their experience with it.
> 
> There are many Korean and Japanese people around where I live, and they're always wearing at least KN95 masks, often N99 level masks. They seem to have a far more cautious attitude to this than a typical Canadian. For example there's a Korean hairdresser around here, and I take a peek in their window as I walk by... I have never seen anyone with less than a N99 (such as CAN99) grade mask.
> 
> Then I walk over to the next salon, and most people inside have *no* masks at all (even employees). White people don't seem to like masks.
> 
> Who do you think is being smarter?


The people in Hong Kong had an obsession with wearing masks and they are having a big run on covid. So bad that the government is testing everyone and major restrictions have been imposed.


----------



## damian13ster

Dude, it is over. Let it go!
You had good run for 2 years, but this is it. It is done.

Now we need to make sure that the 30-year stepback in human rights we took is recovered quickly. That authoritarians we gave unchecked power to are stripped of it and prosecuted. That world hunger, anxiety, mental health and development problems we have magnified and increased tenfold are taken care of


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> The people in Hong Kong had an obsession with wearing masks and they are having a big run on covid. So bad that the government is testing everyone and major restrictions have been imposed.


True, covid still got in, but the number of deaths is still incredibly low. Just a tiny fraction of what other countries have experienced.

So one could also say that all that cautiousness has been working. Same in Japan; they still have covid circulating and people dying, but it's been much milder than American/European countries.


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> True, covid still got in, but the number of deaths is still incredibly low. Just a tiny fraction of what other countries have experienced.
> 
> So one could also say that all that cautiousness has been working. Same in Japan; they still have covid circulating and people dying, but it's been much milder than American/European countries.


Having Omicron spread through the entire population is like vaccinating everyone with a very effective vaccine. That is according to Bill Gates. Says people who had Omicron have very high levels of B and T cells .


----------



## OptsyEagle

zinfit said:


> Having Omicron spread through the entire population is like vaccinating everyone with a very effective vaccine. That is according to Bill Gates. Says people who had Omicron have very high levels of B and T cells .


or we could do what the Asians are doing and exert tremendous effort in an attempt to reduce the spread, lose $Billions of dollars in economic costs, cause innumerable mental and educational damage to our young children, stall the lives of every citizen in the country and then have the virus spread through our country and provide us with high levels of B and T immunity protection cells.

Not sure why this decision is so hard for many to make.


----------



## Beaver101

Number of patients with COVID-19 in Ontario hospitals drops below 900

The above stats in Ontario hospitals on Covid patients is improving which is great and dandy since these folks are dying off and fulfills the theories of the experts on this board.

But the reality is more like:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/resurgence-covid-19-viral-load-wastewater-sur-1.6366103

Let's hope there isn't another wave because Dr. Peter Juni, scientific director of the science advisory table is just dreaming about its (more) residents will be getting the 3rd dose.

If another wave that comes about, as an Ontarian, I'll be demanding Dr. K. Moore take a permanent hiatus from his job as Ontario's "top medical" officer or a vacation over at Banffs Island (sic) for the next 4 years.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I still think we should ask ourselves if we're really smarter at handling disease outbreaks than Asian countries. Think about their experience with it.
> 
> There are many Korean and Japanese people around where I live, and they're always wearing at least KN95 masks, often N99 level masks. They seem to have a far more cautious attitude to this than a typical Canadian. For example there's a Korean hairdresser around here, and I take a peek in their window as I walk by... I have never seen anyone with less than a N99 (such as CAN99) grade mask.
> 
> Then I walk over to the next salon, and most people inside have *no* masks at all (even employees). White people don't seem to like masks.
> 
> *Who do you think is being smarter?*


 ... of course, those who don't want to wear their masks since they (the superior people) know more than the whinies (sheeple to the superiors) who do ... no brainer at this point in time - 2+ years in a pandemic (not even an epidemic achieved!) depending on who you ask.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> Having Omicron spread through the entire population is like vaccinating everyone with a very effective vaccine.


It's not quite that good. There isn't much durability in this immunity, the antibodies last for maybe 3 to 4 months and then it's back to square one.

People who aren't cautious, don't wear masks, are going to catch covid repeatedly.

But I do agree that if you're going to catch covid, it does seem like omicron is a reasonably mild one to get and at least you'll have antibodies for a few months.

If you're saying that infection with omicron provides longer-lasting benefits, that's pretty interesting but I haven't read about that yet. Can you link to a reference?


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> It's not quite that good. There isn't much durability in this immunity, the antibodies last for maybe 3 to 4 months and then it's back to square one.
> 
> People who aren't cautious, don't wear masks, are going to catch covid repeatedly.
> 
> But I do agree that if you're going to catch covid, it does seem like omicron is a reasonably mild one to get and at least you'll have antibodies for a few months.
> 
> If you're saying that infection with omicron provides longer-lasting benefits, that's pretty interesting but I haven't read about that yet. Can you link to a reference?


experience might be going against your thinking.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> experience might be going against your thinking.


Well I hope you're right anyway, because with all the domestic travel I have lined up, it seems likely I'm going to catch omicron in the next few months.


----------



## OptsyEagle

@james4beach, it is impossible at this point in time to offer assurance that natural immunity will end this pandemic for good. I think it is possible, at this point, to prove that what we have been doing so far, with respect to lockdowns and restrictions, will certainly not do it, so that is probably the primarily thrust of my argument towards natural immunity. Hopefully that part makes sense, whether you agree or not.

Since we don't have proof we have no choice but to use theory. We do have proof that natural infection provided better protection, and longer lasting immunity, with Delta infections. Some of that proof came out of Israel where they showed that natural immunity had a 13 fold improvement in protecting against infection then 2 doses of vaccine. This was comparing the same time frames of vaccination to infections and following up 4 to 8 months later. When they allowed for longer time frames, they found that natural immunity waned, along with vaccination, but still held up stronger then vaccination to the tune of around a 6 fold improvement over vaccination. When it came to protection against hospitalizations and death, the natural immunity continued to show its superiority over vaccination in both protection levels and length of time before waning. I will add that when both, vaccination and previous infection, was utilized by a candidate, that person obtained the highest level of protection in all categories.



https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf



Unfortuneately, now we have Omicron and although that is showing to be much less severe, it is so new it is difficult to get the exact data on it. First we will get the data on how it's natural immunity protects us from infection, hospitalization and death but the next question we will want to know is for how long? That of course requires time to know. So we have to go on theory. Since every pandemic in the past was pretty much ended with the help of natural immunity we really have no choice but to hope this one follows the same path. There is no reason why it shouldn't and as I said, what we have been doing has not made the virus go away, so trying something else is an obvious course of action. With little choice, we are about to embark on the great experiment to find out. I for one feel the lower risk, with Omicron, current immunity and warmer weather, is a perfect opportunity to find out what natural immunity will do, but in my opinion, we have little choice anyway. We either find this out by the end of this year or we find this out over the next 5 or more years. All we do know for sure is that this virus is not going anywhere. So we need to adapt.

2022 should be interesting. Enjoy your trips.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> @james4beach, *it is impossible at this point in time to offer assurance that natural immunity will end this pandemic for good.* I think it is possible, at this point, to prove that what we have been doing so far, with respect to lockdowns and restrictions, will certainly not do it, so that is probably the primarily thrust of my argument towards natural immunity. Hopefully that part makes sense, whether you agree or not.
> 
> ...
> 
> * All we do know for sure is that this virus is not going anywhere. So we need to adapt.*
> 
> 2022 should be interesting. Enjoy your trips.


 ... after all that "... (aka blurb)" with a disclaimer at the beginning and a conclusion at the end, it appears certain segment (the minority) of the population still can't "adapt" themselves because it's a "new" "normal", not the old one that they're accustomed to.

Anyhow, don't blame these folks in the article below for NOT thanking Ford et team on removing "all" restrictions in mid/early March.

‘It feels like people don’t see my life as worthy of protecting’



> _By Brendan Kennedy, TORONTO STAR, Mon., Feb. 28, 2022
> 
> Speaking about his government’s decision to lift various public health restrictions ahead of schedule, Premier Doug Ford expressed a popular sentiment about COVID-19 as the pandemic’s second anniversary nears.
> 
> “Everyone’s done with this,” he said on Feb. 15. “Like, we are done with it … Thank God, on March 1 we’re moving out of this, and I just can’t wait.”
> 
> Not everyone shares the premier’s enthusiasm, however.
> 
> Katie Babcock wishes she could be “done” with COVID and all the disruption it has caused her life, but the 42-year-old marketing and communications professional knows that *immunocompromised people like her can’t simply wish their risk away. “I don’t have the privilege not to live in fear,” she said.
> 
> Babcock’s life will actually become more constrained on March 1, when the province eliminates proof-of-vaccination requirements and capacity limits, because she will be deepening her isolation in order to protect herself. If masking is no longer required indoors, her world will shrink even further.
> 
> The public health measures some see as restrictive and inconvenient, she considers potentially life-saving.*
> 
> Babcock, who has a primary immune deficiency called hypogammaglobulinemia, has had four doses of a COVID-19 vaccine, but her doctor said she should act as if she is unvaccinated. Her body doesn’t make enough antibodies and, even with two booster shots, she may not have a sufficient immune response.
> 
> *So when Ford says we need to “learn to live with (COVID) and get on with our lives,” Babcock said he’s not thinking about people like her. “That means everybody else, and they’re basically fine if people like me die from it.”
> 
> While Ontario moves forward in its latest phase of reopening and also considers eliminating mask mandates, many of society’s most vulnerable people — the immunocompromised, those with disabilities, older adults and those caring for children under five — are feeling left behind. They have watched the all-in-this-together spirit of the pandemic’s early days become replaced by an everyone-for-themselves ethos.
> 
> “It feels like people don’t see my life as worthy of protecting,” Babcock said.*
> 
> The number of people that make up these vulnerable groups is not insignificant. A Statistics Canada survey in 2020 found that 14 per cent of Canadians had a compromised immune system, while an estimated one in five people have a disability. Nearly five per cent of Ontario’s population is under five years old, and there are almost as many people over 80.
> 
> They are not all at equal risk, but they all rely to some extent on community protection against COVID-19, said Dawn Bowdish, an associate professor at McMaster University and Canada Research Chair in aging and immunity.
> 
> *“Without our help, they can’t protect themselves,” she said. “I think part of our civic duty is to care for the people around us, and I think infectious disease prevention is one of our civic duties for living in society.”
> 
> Bowdish has noticed an increasing lack of empathy for vulnerable people as the pandemic has gone on, and she has been frustrated by recent suggestions by Ford and others in positions of authority that learning to live with COVID means simply going back to the way things were before the pandemic.
> 
> “Learning to live with a virus doesn’t mean having no public health measures,”* she said. “It’s *not throwing up our hands and going back to our old life. It’s adapting our life to live with a new infectious disease.”*
> 
> That could include vaccine mandates for certain jobs, strict ventilation requirements and continued masking in some settings, she said, adding that protecting the most vulnerable should be the goal.
> ... _


 ... motto: let Hunger Games resume!!!!


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Read an article recently - unfortunately I can no longer find it to reference. Basically, it detailed how all the variants are connected and more interestingly, not connected. 

So we tend to believe (or at least I have) that each variant is a mutation of the previous variant. Apparently we (I) are wrong. Omicron is a new strain that has not emerged from Delta. Same thing as the other variants - they are all different strains of SARS-COV-2 but not necessarily mutations of each other.

In fact, the current variant BA.2 is a subvariant of Omicron. BA.2 is a true mutation of Omicron. That's why its still called Omicron. 

The good news is that the previous variants have died down. I personally attribute that to the mass vaccinations and sanitary measures. You may or may not agree but that's my opinion. It also makes sense why Omicron is able to infect those who are vaccinated - the vaccine was developed to fight against prior variants. 

The other good news is that Omicron is not as potent as the previous strains. We are headed in the right direction where this pandemic is soon to be an endemic. The fact governments are lifting all restrictions is a good sign and will help achieve endemic status. We will hopefully learn to live with what remains and consider it nothing more than the common flu.


----------



## Beaver101

Mortgage u/w said:


> Read an article recently - unfortunately I can no longer find it to reference. Basically, it detailed how all the variants are connected and more interestingly, not connected.
> 
> So we tend to believe (or at least I have) that each variant is a mutation of the previous variant. Apparently we (I) are wrong. Omicron is a new strain that has not emerged from Delta. Same thing as the other variants - they are all different strains of SARS-COV-2 but not necessarily mutations of each other.


 ...then there's the question - where did Delta go? Or is it hiding before it mutates to Delta2 to over-take Omicron?


> In fact, the current variant BA.2 is a subvariant of Omicron. BA.2 is a true mutation of Omicron. That's why its still called Omicron.
> 
> The good news is that the previous variants have died down. I personally attribute that to the mass vaccinations and sanitary measures. You may or may not agree but that's my opinion. It also makes sense why Omicron is able to infect those who are vaccinated - the vaccine was developed to fight against prior variants.


 ... disagree that mass vaccination and sanitary measures have "killed" (aka eliminated) the previous variants such as Delta. Seems more like Omicron is trying to kill it by over-taking it over its host. And in which case the vaccine to date doesn't (really) work for Omicron.



> The other good news is that Omicron is not as potent as the previous strains. We are headed in the right direction where this pandemic is soon to be an endemic. The fact governments are lifting all restrictions is a good sign and will help achieve endemic status. We will hopefully learn to live with what remains and consider it nothing more than the common flu.


 ... would agree we're heading in the right direction with the decreasing hospitalisations but let's start with achieving an epidemic first before we can skip right to it being endemic.


----------



## MrMatt

Mortgage u/w said:


> Read an article recently - unfortunately I can no longer find it to reference. Basically, it detailed how all the variants are connected and more interestingly, not connected.
> 
> So we tend to believe (or at least I have) that each variant is a mutation of the previous variant. Apparently we (I) are wrong. Omicron is a new strain that has not emerged from Delta. Same thing as the other variants - they are all different strains of SARS-COV-2 but not necessarily mutations of each other.
> 
> In fact, the current variant BA.2 is a subvariant of Omicron. BA.2 is a true mutation of Omicron. That's why its still called Omicron.
> 
> The good news is that the previous variants have died down. I personally attribute that to the mass vaccinations and sanitary measures. You may or may not agree but that's my opinion. It also makes sense why Omicron is able to infect those who are vaccinated - the vaccine was developed to fight against prior variants.
> 
> The other good news is that Omicron is not as potent as the previous strains. We are headed in the right direction where this pandemic is soon to be an endemic. The fact governments are lifting all restrictions is a good sign and will help achieve endemic status. We will hopefully learn to live with what remains and consider it nothing more than the common flu.


2 Bones to pick
You're misusing the word endemic, please read the definition of this word.
Being endemic isn't "the right direction", being less lethal is the right direction. 

Hopefully the dominant COVID19 strains end up as dangerous as the other Coronaviruses that we are around all the time, ie negligible.
If fast mutating flu strength viruses stick around, we still have a bit of a problem.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... would agree we're heading in the right direction with the decreasing hospitalisations but let's start with achieving an epidemic first before we can skip right to it being endemic.


Yeah, I have no doubt we'll eventually get to endemic (and more of a "nuisance") but my problem is with this rush to throw our hands up and say, covid is over -- in the middle of winter! This is stupidity IMO.

Doctors across the country continue to warn that easing everything seems premature. My sense is that it's much more of an emotional thing, based on a frustration and desire "to be done with it" but public health decisions shouldn't be made based on emotions.

We *should* be gradually easing, while maintaining safeguards such as mandatory masks, plus lots of testing and monitoring. Instead we've also stopped our testing. At least the USA actually tests and the government monitors this data. In Canada, we're operating blind right now.

It's possible to live life normally, while still having safeguards like masks and capacity limits, plus testing (monitoring). If as time goes on, hospitals don't face new waves that overwhelm them, then the masks can eventually be dropped.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

Beaver101 said:


> ...then there's the question - where did Delta go? Or is it hiding before it mutates to Delta2 to over-take Omicron?


Delta did not go anywhere - all strains are still a threat. The reason we don't hear about them is because those strains are not as dominant as Omicron which took the lead in infections.



Beaver101 said:


> ... disagree that mass vaccination and sanitary measures have "killed" (aka eliminated) the previous variants such as Delta. Seems more like Omicron is trying to kill it by over-taking it over its host. And in which case the vaccine to date doesn't (really) work for Omicron.


I never mentioned that the previous variants were "killed" or eliminated by the mass vaccinations etc. My opinion is that vaccines and sanitation have simply had a large impact on reducing their spread.



Beaver101 said:


> ... would agree we're heading in the right direction with the decreasing hospitalisations but let's start with achieving an epidemic first before we can skip right to it being endemic.


epidemic, endemic...sure. I think the point is clear - to get out of a pandemic state.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

MrMatt said:


> 2 Bones to pick
> You're misusing the word endemic, please read the definition of this word.
> Being endemic isn't "the right direction", being less lethal is the right direction.
> 
> Hopefully the dominant COVID19 strains end up as dangerous as the other Coronaviruses that we are around all the time, ie negligible.
> If fast mutating flu strength viruses stick around, we still have a bit of a problem.


Unfortunately, we can't decide how lethal a virus will be. We can, however, find ways to become immune to those threats. So yes, I will maintain that the right direction would be an endemic - where humans can become immune to the virus and learn to live with it.


----------



## Beaver101

Mortgage u/w said:


> Delta did not go anywhere - all strains are still a threat. The reason we don't hear about them is because those strains are not as dominant as Omicron which took the lead in infections.


 ... yep



> I never mentioned that the previous variants were "killed" or eliminated by the mass vaccinations etc. My opinion is that vaccines and sanitation have simply had a large impact on reducing their spread.


 ... I think I got misread your comment "The good news is that the previous variants have died down." so I thought you meant they disappeared. That would be wonderful.



> epidemic, endemic...sure. I think the point is clear - to get out of a pandemic state.


 ... yep. But IMO, for awhile. Just hope for the best and prepare for the worst.


----------



## MrMatt

Mortgage u/w said:


> Unfortunately, we can't decide how lethal a virus will be. We can, however, find ways to become immune to those threats. So yes, I will maintain that the right direction would be an endemic - where humans can become immune to the virus and learn to live with it.


Again, you're using endemic like that's a good thing.
" endemic - where humans can become immune to the virus" << that is not the meaning of endemic

I think you literally don't know the meaning of the word.
Being endemic has nothing to do with the lethality or the ability to adjust and manage the virus.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

MrMatt said:


> Again, you're using endemic like that's a good thing.
> " endemic - where humans can become immune to the virus" << that is not the meaning of endemic
> 
> I think you literally don't know the meaning of the word.
> Being endemic has nothing to do with the lethality or the ability to adjust and manage the virus.


Endemic as in the meaning where the virus is living among us but we build enough immunity that we won’t all die if infected.
It’s clear by now that the virus will not disappear.

I’m curious to know what your definition of an endemic is?


----------



## james4beach

Today marked the 2 year "anniversary" of my close friend's dad dying of covid. He was in his 60s and in the prime of his life and his career.

There were no covid test back then, but given the circumstances we're all sure he died of covid. He went to the US for a family vacation. He caught a "flu" while there or possibly while travelling back to Canada. The flu became worse, and he died. Very shocking and none of us could have seen that coming.

I found an old post which is really spooky to read. Here's my post from March 2, 2020 when I was going to my friend's dad's funeral. Of course we had no idea there was covid in MB and no idea that he just died of it. It was a massive funeral, everyone shaking hands, no masks (of course).

A friend who joined me at the funeral works in the hospital emergency room. During the funeral, he told us in frustration that they are seeing one of the worst flu outbreaks ever, they are struggling to staff the ICU, and people are dying. It makes me wonder how many people in Canada had already died of covid before we had any idea it had arrived.


----------



## MrMatt

Mortgage u/w said:


> Endemic as in the meaning where the virus is living among us but we build enough immunity that we won’t all die if infected.
> It’s clear by now that the virus will not disappear.
> 
> I’m curious to know what your definition of an endemic is?











Endemic (epidemiology) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





It basically means that the virus isn't getting wiped out.

It could have a high death rate, or a low death rate. << That's why I don't think being endmic is "the right direction".
If the death rate of an endemic disease is high, that's still the wrong direction. If Ebola becomes endemic, that's worse, not better.

The right direction is killing a small number of people, this IS the direction that COVID19 is going, But that has nothing to do with its endemic-ness.


----------



## damian13ster

Well, if it will make the media shut up and mandates to finally drop, then labeling it as endemic is going the right direction.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Well, if it will make the media shut up and mandates to finally drop, then labeling it as endemic is going the right direction.


Well I'm for making people happy, but using words wrong, and benefitting from their confusion is wrong.

Ebola is endemic, but I don't imagine anyone thinks that's a good thing.


I guess there are two schools of thought.
1. Words have meanings and definitions and we should use those to communicate knowledge and ideas.
2. People are too dumb to actually comprehend stuff, so we should just throw words at them, until they find one they like, and we can use it to control them.

I'm in camp #1.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

MrMatt said:


> Well I'm for making people happy, but using words wrong, and benefitting from their confusion is wrong.
> 
> Ebola is endemic, but I don't imagine anyone thinks that's a good thing.
> 
> 
> I guess there are two schools of thought.
> 1. Words have meanings and definitions and we should use those to communicate knowledge and ideas.
> 2. People are too dumb to actually comprehend stuff, so we should just throw words at them, until they find one they like, and we can use it to control them.
> 
> I'm in camp #1.


i really don’t understand your frustration.

i never asked you to agree with my opinion where I think an endemic is the right direction. You can debate my point of view but making dumb remarks where my opinion is wrong because you think I don’t understand the meaning of a word?? Really??

if you think the world is working on wiping this virus out for good, think again.


----------



## MrMatt

Mortgage u/w said:


> i never asked you to agree with my opinion where I think an endemic is the right direction. You can debate my point of view but making dumb remarks where my opinion is wrong because you think I don’t understand the meaning of a word?? Really??


Yes, really.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

MrMatt said:


> Yes, really.


nice.You must be a gem to have a conversation with.


----------



## james4beach

Yet another court has dismissed a legal challenge by a church which violated provincial covid restrictions. It's nice that a few of these challenges have gone to court... and the legal system has given clear rulings for these cases in BC, Manitoba, and Ontario... which helps our society understand the balance with public health protections.

@Mukhang pera you may be interested.

Several churches have claimed that covid restrictions violated their rights to freedom of religion, and assembly under the Constitution. The ruling seems quite nuanced and I think it does a good job capturing the "big picture". In this Ontario case:

the judge agreed the restrictions did infringe on the ability to have a religious gathering
but there was never a complete ban on religious gatherings or religious activity
the restrictions on gatherings were reasonable and necessary, for public health interests
the churches showed a lack of respect when the province was trying hard to accommodate them
These are Mennonite and Amish communities.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/ontario-judge-dismisses-churches-challenge-against-covid-19-rules-1.6369342


----------



## MrMatt

Mortgage u/w said:


> nice.You must be a gem to have a conversation with.


I was trying to facilitate a conversation with you, by pointing out that your position was confusing and not logical.

I think the reason it was so confusing is you were using words in a way that suggested you thought they had a different meaning then they actually do.
You confirmed this by defining a epidemic as "Endemic as in the meaning where the virus is living among us but we build enough immunity that we won’t all die if infected.
It’s clear by now that the virus will not disappear. "

Which isn't the definition of endemic, and hence the source of confusion.

In serious conversations I actually do make an effort to ensure we're talking about the same thing. Often when people talk about different things at the same time, you end up with a communication problem. Which we have here.
My sense of frustration is I think I've been very clear that the miscommunication stems from the definition of endemic that you're using. I've provided the wiki definition for clarity, but you still act like your made up definition is correct. that's frustrating.

Of course here I point out the communication problem, and you switch to insults.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

MrMatt said:


> I was trying to facilitate a conversation with you, by pointing out that your position was confusing and not logical.
> 
> I think the reason it was so confusing is you were using words in a way that suggested you thought they had a different meaning then they actually do.
> You confirmed this by defining a epidemic as "Endemic as in the meaning where the virus is living among us but we build enough immunity that we won’t all die if infected.
> It’s clear by now that the virus will not disappear. "
> 
> Which isn't the definition of endemic, and hence the source of confusion.
> 
> In serious conversations I actually do make an effort to ensure we're talking about the same thing. Often when people talk about different things at the same time, you end up with a communication problem. Which we have here.
> My sense of frustration is I think I've been very clear that the miscommunication stems from the definition of endemic that you're using. I've provided the wiki definition for clarity, but you still act like your made up definition is correct. that's frustrating.
> 
> Of course here I point out the communication problem, and you switch to insults.


I think I know very well the difference between an endemic, epidemic and pandemic for that matter. Thank you.

If you don't understand my point of view, I have nothing else to add.


----------



## Beaver101

Toronto among several municipalities keeping mandatory vaccine policies in place for employees



> *Allison Jones, The Canadian Press, Wednesday, March 2, 2022*
> 
> _Many Ontario municipalities are keeping COVID-19 vaccine mandates for their staff even as they lift the proof-of-vaccination requirement at facilities such as community centres.
> 
> The province's vaccine certificate system covering restaurants, bars, gyms, cinemas, event spaces ended Tuesday and several municipalities confirmed vaccination would no longer be required to enter their recreation facilities and arts centres.
> 
> *But many municipalities that enacted policies requiring employees to be double vaccinated or lose their jobs are keeping those mandates in place.
> 
> In Toronto, the city said that despite the other public health measures lifting, its policy that employees need to be vaccinated isn't being removed.*
> 
> "Ensuring all employees, as well as new hires, are vaccinated is an important component of what the city is doing to help protect the health and safety of all employees and the communities they work with," the city said in a statement.
> York Region's director of corporate communications said maintaining the employee vaccine mandate is consistent with the municipality's obligations under the Occupational Health and Safety Act.
> 
> "As we have demonstrated throughout the pandemic, York Region continues to take every possible step to protect our employees and residents, including through our mandatory vaccination policy and strongly recommending all staff obtain booster vaccines as they become available," Patrick Casey said in a statement.
> 
> Ontario required certain sectors, including health-care, schools and post-secondary institutions, to develop vaccination policies mandating that – at a minimum – unvaccinated employees had to submit to regular testing.
> 
> Kieran Moore, the province's chief medical officer of health, had said he would like to dissolve those policies in line with the lifting of the vaccine certificate system, though he said last week that discussions were ongoing and it would take longer.
> 
> Many institutions, notably hospitals, developed policies that went beyond that standard, firing employees who refused to get vaccinated, and those facilities said their strict requirements would stay in place despite the province lifting restrictions.
> 
> *The city of Windsor and the town of Clarington also said their employee vaccine mandates would stay in place. *The city of London said it was reviewing its policy, but hadn't yet made any changes.
> 
> *Sudbury said it reviewed its mandatory vaccination policy in the context of Tuesday's provincial changes and decided to keep it.*
> 
> "Throughout the pandemic, we have made decisions that are rooted in the health and safety of our employees and the public we serve," the city said in a statement.
> 
> Ottawa required unvaccinated employees to complete an education course about COVID-19 vaccines, and a spokeswoman said Tuesday that the city would follow public health advice.
> 
> *"This policy is a temporary measure which aims to reduce the risks associated with COVID-19 and may be amended as new public health directives, provincial or federal legislation, regulations, or orders are formalized,"* said Valerie Turner, innovative client services general manager, in a statement._


 ... I'm surprised to see even the municipality of Sudbury is keeping its employment's vax policy in place. Wonder why?


----------



## MrMatt

Mortgage u/w said:


> I think I know very well the difference between an endemic, epidemic and pandemic for that matter. Thank you.
> 
> If you don't understand my point of view, I have nothing else to add.


I understand your point of view on the status of COVID19 and agree that a less lethal dominant strain is the right direction.

I don't agree that endemic is the right direction, because it isn't, the only "right direction" with respect to prevalence is elimination


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Yet another court has dismissed a legal challenge by a church which violated provincial covid restrictions. It's nice that a few of these challenges have gone to court... and the legal system has given clear rulings for these cases in BC, Manitoba, and Ontario... which helps our society understand the balance with public health protections.
> 
> the judge agreed the restrictions did infringe on the ability to have a religious gathering
> but there was never a complete ban on religious gatherings or religious activity
> the restrictions on gatherings were reasonable and necessary, for public health interests
> The churches showed a lack of respect when the province was trying hard to accommodate them


The point is the politically motivated enforcement.
As they were harrassing religious gatherings, even one at a drive in, they were not only allowing, but encouraging and participating in mass gatherings.

The religious discrimination is that they harrassed religionus gatherings, while letting other, more dangerous gatherings, take place


The politically motivation of the enforcement/non-enforcement is the primary problem.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Response to post #1,213:

Gist of Mortgage u/w's posts: Have your pick on the lesser of 3 evils - pandemic, epidemic or endemic.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I would like to eliminate rattle snakes from the planet also but I bet that is not going to happen either. We did, however, learn to live with them, and I suspect covid will be the same. It certainly looks that way right now anyway.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> I would like to eliminate rattle snakes from the planet also but I bet that is not going to happen either. We did, however, learn to live with them, and *I suspect covid will be the same. * It certainly looks that way right now anyway.


 ... no, it will not. Not without some kind of "restrictive" protection.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

MrMatt said:


> I understand your point of view on the status of COVID19 and agree that a less lethal dominant strain is the right direction.
> 
> I don't agree that endemic is the right direction, because it isn't, the only "right direction" with respect to prevalence is elimination


Now were having a proper conversation. For the record, I never mentioned that an endemic is the "only right direction".


----------



## OptsyEagle

Sorry, I missed the particulars of the plan to eliminate this virus from our planet. Perhaps someone could fill me in.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Sorry, I missed the particulars of the plan to eliminate this virus from our planet. Perhaps someone could fill me in.


Nobody reasonable had that plan, because Coronaviruses are notoriously hard to eliminate. 

According to experts, the only real hope was to develop treatment plans, and ideally end up with a less lethal strain.
The vaccine solution was always a long shot. Go back to my mid 2020 posts if you want details on the scientific research available at the time.


----------



## OptsyEagle

OK. So no plan to eliminate the virus. Perhaps we could end this grammar debate on what endemic means, and I would also love to move past all the suggestions that keep coming in to delay the spread, which only delays the end of the pandemic, and focus on actually ending the pandemic. Although community exposure cannot eliminate the virus and it cannot give anyone a guarantee of success, it is the best plan we have to eliminate this pandemic.

We should therefore, focus our attentions on all the ramifications of that. At least until these new treatments and other future hopes and dreams become available, if they ever do.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

The longer Putin makes headlines, the quicker we will forget COVID.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Mortgage u/w said:


> The longer Putin makes headlines, the quicker we will forget COVID.


----------



## Beaver101

Mortgage u/w said:


> The longer Putin makes headlines, the quicker we will forget COVID.


 ... disagree. The longer Putin makes headlines, the quicker the deniers will attempt to forget the freedumb convoy (aka regrets). Covid is here to stay regardless of which WW erupts.


----------



## james4beach

Mortgage u/w said:


> nice.You must be a gem to have a conversation with.


@Mortgage u/w consider the argument I posted here, that this character may not exactly be a real human. AI driven argumentative style programmed for social media could explain your interaction experience.









NZ gun law change


Rittenhouse defended himself from people who were illegally carrying weapons and trying to kill him. That somehow upsets you more than the armed thugs who were trying to kill him. So your point of view is that attempted murder is okay, as long as it's your side committing the murders. I...




www.canadianmoneyforum.com


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> @Mortgage u/w consider the argument I posted here, that this character may not exactly be a real human. AI driven argumentative style programmed for social media could explain your interaction experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NZ gun law change
> 
> 
> Rittenhouse defended himself from people who were illegally carrying weapons and trying to kill him. That somehow upsets you more than the armed thugs who were trying to kill him. So your point of view is that attempted murder is okay, as long as it's your side committing the murders. I...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canadianmoneyforum.com


Considering the repeated ad homium attacks against me, you can assume james4beach doesn't have a logical counter-argument.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> @Mortgage u/w consider the argument I posted here, that this character may not exactly be a real human. AI driven argumentative style programmed for social media could explain your interaction experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NZ gun law change
> 
> 
> Rittenhouse defended himself from people who were illegally carrying weapons and trying to kill him. That somehow upsets you more than the armed thugs who were trying to kill him. So your point of view is that attempted murder is okay, as long as it's your side committing the murders. I...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canadianmoneyforum.com


Don't forget, you're the person that's more upset with successful self defense than you are with attempted murder. You don't need AI to spot the flaws in your reasoning, it just takes a tiny sliver of common sense.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> @Mortgage u/w consider the argument I posted here, that this character may not exactly be a real human. AI driven argumentative style programmed for social media could explain your interaction experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NZ gun law change
> 
> 
> Rittenhouse defended himself from people who were illegally carrying weapons and trying to kill him. That somehow upsets you more than the armed thugs who were trying to kill him. So your point of view is that attempted murder is okay, as long as it's your side committing the murders. I...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canadianmoneyforum.com


 ... you're the 2nd person who noticed some of these posts are responded with a "bot". ROFLMFAO.


----------



## TomB16

zinfit said:


> The people in Hong Kong had an obsession with wearing masks and they are having a big run on covid. So bad that the government is testing everyone and major restrictions have been imposed.


Masking was an important early defense and it worked, to the extent it was used.

In the early days, New York covid nurses were catching covid at a lower rate than the general population.

Omicron is different. It is far more virulent. Omicron BA2 variant is far more virulent still. As well, everyone who wants vaccine has had the opportunity. It's time to open the flood gates.

There is a lot of covid science based in Europe. There is some but very little in North America.

Science means open, published, and peer reviewed.

None of the covid vaccine trials have been published. The FDA approval process is also not published. CDC has published almost no data.

The earliest access to information is expected to be from moderns. They have said they will accept requests for trial information by the end of 2022 and will try to fulfill those requests by the end of 2023. That is years between trial and shared data.

mRNA vaccine was engineered, no doubt by some very clever people, but it is not based on science.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

james4beach said:


> @Mortgage u/w consider the argument I posted here, that this character may not exactly be a real human. AI driven argumentative style programmed for social media could explain your interaction experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NZ gun law change
> 
> 
> Rittenhouse defended himself from people who were illegally carrying weapons and trying to kill him. That somehow upsets you more than the armed thugs who were trying to kill him. So your point of view is that attempted murder is okay, as long as it's your side committing the murders. I...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canadianmoneyforum.com


Ever play scrabble and your opponent pulls out the dictionary?


----------



## Beaver101

^ I'm in tears.


----------



## MrMatt

Mortgage u/w said:


> Ever play scrabble and your opponent pulls out the dictionary?


yes, because there are lots of words.




__





Scrabble Word Finder | Official Scrabble Players Dictionary







scrabble.merriam.com





To be completely honest I routinely review the definitions of words I'm using, to ensure I'm using the correct words.
This is an effort to facilitate communication.

Putting together a random smattering of words, irrespective of their definitions and hoping for the best isn't an approach I endorse.

irrespective - not taking (something) into account; regardless of.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Considering the repeated ad homium attacks against me, you can assume james4beach doesn't have a logical counter-argument.


I mean, _even this_ is formulaic


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I mean, _even this_ is formulaic


As is my response.




__





Ad Hominem: When People Use Personal Attacks in Arguments – Effectiviology







effectiviology.com






You should respond to reasonable ad hominem arguments by addressing them properly, and counter fallacious ad hominem arguments by pointing out their irrelevance, responding to them directly, ignoring them, or acknowledging them and moving on.
To avoid using fallacious ad hominem arguments yourself, you should make sure to avoid attacking the source of an argument instead of attacking the argument itself, unless you can properly justify the relevance of such an attack.

I don't think ad hominem attacks are particularly effective in my goals, which is promoting understanding and my liberal political agenda.





Liberalism - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




*Liberalism* is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

must be a boring day for some......


----------



## james4beach

Mortgage u/w said:


> must be a boring day for some......


This forum is a lot more fun than what I'm dealing with at home, which is leaking pipes (seemingly everywhere) in the bathroom... I've been cleaning that, diagnosing the leak, and having the superintendent come in to fix. Last night I was happy that it was all fixed, only to notice new leaks springing up.

We both wear masks and I have the windows open. Seems perfectly safe from a covid perspective.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

^ try slapping your superintendent with some word definitions. I bet your day will get more interesting.


----------



## Synergy

If this is true, so much for transparency and informed consent!

*CHD Says Pfizer and FDA Dropped Data Bombshell on COVID Vaccine Consumers*



https://finance.yahoo.com/news/chd-says-pfizer-fda-dropped-205400826.html


----------



## Synergy

Here's some background on the same subject.








Why a Judge Ordered FDA to Release Covid-19 Vaccine Data Pronto


A group of scientists and medical researchers sued the FDA under FOIA to force release of hundreds of thousands of documents related to licensing of the Pfizer-BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine. Plaintiff’s attorney Aaron Siri, who is representing the group, explains the fight that led a federal court...




news.bloomberglaw.com





This should help get some peoples panties in bunch 😲


----------



## OptsyEagle

Obviously the benefit of getting the vaccine data out into the public is that it will be disseminated much quicker. 500,000 pages of vaccine data submitted by Pfizer reminds me of the technique a court defendant uses when being subpoenaed for information that they would rather not have to give to the prosecuting attorneys. They simply overwhelm the defense with so much information in the hope they miss the important stuff, that they don't want them to see.

It appears Pfizer utilized this method as well, with the FDA, so all we need to do now is find out what it was they did not want them to see. We should probably know by the end of the year. Obviously the FDA did not have enough time to sift through all that information before they were forced to approve the vaccines, so this technique worked quite well. I imagine the FDA knows there is probably something in that 500,000 page submission that they are not going to like either but they just did not have the ambition to sift through that much data, especially since they have already authorized the vaccines.


----------



## latebuyer

Does anyone know of cancellation insurance that includes covid as a cause? Sorry i confess not reading the whole 62 page thread.


----------



## latebuyer

Just a note i found td travel insurance offers cancellation insurance for covid. However, i'm interested if there are others.


----------



## Plugging Along

latebuyer said:


> Does anyone know of cancellation insurance that includes covid as a cause? Sorry i confess not reading the whole 62 page thread.


Keeps changing... most it's an extra charge for Covid cancellation, must read the fine print. I went with just making sure I could cancel at almost anytime instead of extra insurance, but I am only flying within Canada for a few days.


----------



## sags

If the "long hauler" symptoms of covid prove to be as problematic as they seem to be, I could see "covid" listed on medical insurance applications as a box to check off.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> If the "long hauler" symptoms of covid prove to be as problematic as they seem to be, I could see "covid" listed on medical insurance applications as a box to check off.


Big problem there is that many people don't know if they have COVID, and there is currently no way to tell if you did or did not.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Probably word that question next to the checkbox as "were you ever hospitalized or sought treatment for Covid19?" Better yet, include "have you have ever tested for Covid19, including self-testing"?


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> If the "long hauler" symptoms of covid prove to be as problematic as they seem to be, I could see "covid" listed on medical insurance applications as a box to check off.


 .. just saw this article Study links even mild COVID-19 to changes in the brain

I think we'll gonna to have a population of zombies, if not zoombies already when we're over the pandemic.


----------



## Beaver101

Transport Canada fines passengers on Sunwing party flight

I believe just about everyone have heard of the above story before. 



> _Christopher Reynolds, The Canadian Press, Tuesday, March 8, 2022
> 
> MONTREAL -- Passengers are paying a pricey penalty for partying onboard a Sunwing flight last year that devolved into a raucous onboard soiree.
> 
> The federal Transport Department said Tuesday it issued unspecified fines against six passengers.
> Videos of the charter voyage from Montreal to Cancun, Mexico, shared on social media show unmasked passengers in close proximity singing and dancing in the aisle and on seats as some clutch bottles of liquor, snap selfies and vape.
> 
> *A half-dozen passengers who were not fully vaccinated when they boarded have now received penalties that could reach a maximum of $5,000 each,* Transport Canada said. Under COVID-19 rules, all passengers must be fully vaccinated to board a flight departing the country.
> 
> "Certain behaviours reported in connection with the flight on Dec. 30, 2021, are unacceptable and will not be tolerated," Transport Minister Omar Alghabra said in a release. "Aviation rules must be respected by everyone, for the sake of everyone's safety."
> 
> Transport Canada launched an investigation on Jan. 4 to determine whether travellers violated laws or regulations around aviation safety and security.
> 
> Sunwing has said in an email that passengers -- some were Quebec-based social media influencers -- violated aviation regulations and public health rules via "unruly behaviour," prompting an internal probe._
> ....


 ... "social media influencing for the influencers" must be extremely profitable ... 1. be able to book/afford a plane for an all-exclusive vacation, 2. its participants party like it's no tomorrow, and 3. ability to pay fines on a whim. LMAO. 

The question becomes why do we need "marketing" companies for when you can get it done all free here. LMAOAgain.


----------



## sags

It is unbelievable how much money some of these Youtube influencers make on their videos.

Some of them have hundreds of millions of views......$$$$$$$$$$$

A lot of people are trying to make a buck on Youtube and about everything has already been covered, so it is getting more extreme to attract "eyeballs".

Check out the views and subscribers for influencer Mr. Beast...227,000,000 views and 91,000,000 subscribers.......wowza !

Advertisers come begging to him with bags of cash.......


----------



## james4beach

latebuyer said:


> Just a note i found td travel insurance offers cancellation insurance for covid. However, i'm interested if there are others.


There's Manulife CoverMe Pandemic travel plan

But are you sure the insurance you found will cover cancellation of the trip if you have covid, before the travel? This Manulife one only covers covid *during* the trip, resulting in an extended stay (trip interruption)


----------



## james4beach

On the weekend, I saw that "party buses" are back. I saw two big party buses, tinted windows, with such a noisy party inside that you could hear it from the street. Then those two party buses parked at a local bar. Guaranteed that covid is spreading in this setting.

Indoor restaurants and bars are going to be incredibly dangerous in the coming months.

Alcohol is a big factor in people's stupidity and lack of caution. Already it's pretty clear that covid spreads like crazy in resort settings, for example Mexico and Dominican Republic. People are drinking and partying, nobody wears masks, and many people catch covid as a result.


----------



## HappilyRetired

We've been warned about super spreader events for 2 years, most of it was BS. We were also warned about the huge dangers of Omicron but it turned out to be so weak that most people that get now it don't even know they got it, my sister in law is one of them. Zero symptoms but she tested positive on their way back from a trip to the US.

James, you can worry about people on buses but realize that you're now just a small part of a rapidly diminishing fringe element. Everyone else is moving on with their lives or has moved on long ago.


----------



## sags

Best summer ever ?


----------



## Money172375

Ontario set to drop mask mandates on March 21.


----------



## Money172375

latebuyer said:


> Does anyone know of cancellation insurance that includes covid as a cause? Sorry i confess not reading the whole 62 page thread.


We paid an extra $50 each for our all inclusive which allows us to cancel right up to 3 hours before our flight. If we didn’t pay, you have the option of cancelling within 1 week of flight.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Ontario set to drop mask mandates on March 21.


 ... in most public settings but not all such as public transit, hospitals, LTCs or other high risk areas. 

I think this will be a nice experiment for Ontario with the opening up of everything and return in-person at the office ... maybe we can achieve an endemic first without the pandemic being declared over ... LOL.


----------



## TomB16

For you pro-vax folks, here is something to think about.

Pfizer released *a couple of* statistics from the first three months of case study of their vaccine. They did this under court order and they appear to have obfuscated as much as possible (with some redaction and a custom written document to fulfill the court order).

There were 1223 "vaccine related" deaths in the first three months of the vaccine trial. They do not indicate how many doses were given. This is now on the public record.






So, the narrative of "it's totally safe" has been proven to be a lie. The conclusion is likely that the vaccine has a strong risk/reward benefit but it cannot be concluded that it is "totally safe", on account of 1223 deaths and 158,893 reported "events" from the vaccine.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I would not say the claim that the "vaccines are totally safe" was proven to be a lie from the information discussed in that video. I don't believe a list of adverse events is proof that the event was caused by the vaccine. It is just a list that it might have been caused by the vaccine.

Even if the 1,223 deaths were caused by the vaccine, without knowing how many doses of vaccine were administered, one cannot say how dangerous the vaccine is. We do know how many people died, who did not get the vaccine, and I am pretty sure that number would make 1,223 look like a walk in the park in comparison. I suspect the reason the "number of doses administered" was redacted was because that is probably considered confidential sales information owned by Pfizer and without their approval the FDA could not publish it. Perhaps there were other reasons. I suspect the number of vaccine doses administered in the US and/or the world, in the first 3 months, is probably known and accessible if one wanted to do a proper risk calculation. Since I suspect the number of doses administered in the 1st 3 months, is well over a 100 million and if someone told me it was 5 times that number, I would not call them a liar, so I don't think that even if 1,223 deaths were proved to be a direct result of the vaccine, that it would be considered overly dangerous compared to the danger we knew about that related to not taking it.


----------



## sags

I would prefer to get the information from a more reliable source.

John Campbell (the guy in the video) also claims to be a "Dr" but is actually a retired nurse. 

He may be a "Dr" of something but he isn't an MD.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> I would not say the claim that the "vaccines are totally safe" was proven to be a lie from the information discussed in that video. I don't believe a list of adverse events is proof that the event was caused by the vaccine. It is just a list that it might have been caused by the vaccine.
> 
> Even if the 1,223 deaths were caused by the vaccine, without knowing how many doses of vaccine were administered, one cannot say how dangerous the vaccine is. We do know how many people died, who did not get the vaccine, and I am pretty sure that number would make 1,223 look like a walk in the park in comparison. I suspect the reason the "number of doses administered" was redacted was because that is probably considered confidential sales information owned by Pfizer and without their approval the FDA could not publish it. Perhaps there were other reasons. I suspect the number of vaccine doses administered in the US and/or the world, in the first 3 months, is probably known and accessible if one wanted to do a proper risk calculation. Since I suspect the number of doses administered in the 1st 3 months, is well over a 100 million and if someone told me it was 5 times that number, I would not call them a liar, so I don't think that even if 1,223 deaths were proved to be a direct result of the vaccine, that it would be considered overly dangerous compared to the danger we knew about that related to not taking it.


 ... I can't believe I'm agreeing with you on this for the most part.


----------



## HappilyRetired

OptsyEagle said:


> Since I suspect the number of doses administered in the 1st 3 months, is well over a 100 million and if someone told me it was 5 times that number, I would not call them a liar, so I don't think that even if 1,223 deaths were proved to be a direct result of the vaccine, that it would be considered overly dangerous compared to the danger we knew about that related to not taking it.


It was 1,223 deaths in the first 3 months of the vaccine trial, not the first 3 months of worldwide use. Big difference.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> For you pro-vax folks, here is something to think about.
> 
> Pfizer released *a couple of* statistics from the first three months of case study of their vaccine. They did this under court order and they appear to have obfuscated as much as possible (with some redaction and a custom written document to fulfill the court order).
> 
> There were 1223 "vaccine related" deaths in the first three months of the vaccine trial. They do not indicate how many doses were given. This is now on the public record.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So, the narrative of "it's totally safe" has been proven to be a lie.* The conclusion is likely that the vaccine has a strong risk/reward benefit but it cannot be concluded that it is "totally safe", on account of 1223 deaths and 158,893 reported "events" from the vaccine.


 ... then I guess we are the "sheeps". No, make that guinea piggies. Kind of late, regardless what narratives come out. Can't un-vax, can we? 

Btw, Pfizer told FDA they require 75 years to produce their vaccine "encyclopedia" of some half-a-million plus pages.

Btw2, I'm only "pro-"vax by civic duty.

Btw3, I don't own any Pfizer (nor Moderna nor whatever vax producer /pharmaceuticals out there) stocks.


----------



## sags

In the early days of the pandemic, this guy falsely represented himself as a "Dr" and was anti-vaccine, and pro Ivermectin.

He participated in videos with others who claimed "expertise" and used sketchy "studies" to put forth a river of false information to gullible followers.

After a time, he couldn't deny that vaccines were helpful and safe and so he changed his narrative to keep his audience coming back.

It appears he is circling back now to a "I was right all along" posture.

Do note......that he does his videos from what appears to be his kitchen or dining room.....not even a white lab coat or office background for effect.

Also note there are no diplomas on the wall.......just a plaque award from Youtube for having over 2 million subscribers.

He is simply a retired guy earning a decent amount of passive income from dumb people who follow his videos.

It is not surprising he is looking for some "conspiracy" theories to feed his followers to keep the cash flowing in.

PS....his videos are all fairly long as Youtube pays for views, subscribers but also the "time viewed" is a big part of the compensation calculation.

The longer you watch........the more he earns.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

TomB16 said:


> ...
> So, the narrative of "it's totally safe" has been proven to be a lie. The conclusion is likely that the vaccine has a strong risk/reward benefit but it cannot be concluded that it is "totally safe", on account of 1223 deaths and 158,893 reported "events" from the vaccine.


What vaccine do you know (or researched) that has 0 fatality and 0 side-effects?


----------



## HappilyRetired

Mortgage u/w said:


> What vaccine do you know (or researched) that has 0 fatality and 0 side-effects?


Irrelevant. What vaccine do you know where they are hiding the data?


----------



## TomB16

Mortgage u/w said:


> What vaccine do you know (or researched) that has 0 fatality and 0 side-effects?


I am not under scrutiny here, as I did not decide to administer it to two or three hundred million people, knowing that 1223 people died during the test, and claiming it is "totally safe".

I'm open to criticism with regard to the data I have presented or the integrity of the source. In this case, it is a document that was produced under court order by the producer of the vaccine so I think trying to undermine this document to fit into your world view is going to be some infertile soil.

For my part, I'm glad to have taken three doses but would have preferred a scientific approach. Science requires open and peer reviewed data. This vaccine was engineered.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

HappilyRetired said:


> Irrelevant. What vaccine do you know where they are hiding the data?


How is that irrelevant?
I don't know any vaccine where they are hiding data.......do you?

The difference here is this topic has been scrutinized so much that you will always have doubts. Unlike other vaccines, no one bothers to question them.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Most of the vaccine data for Covid is still hidden. To suggest otherwise is a lie.


----------



## TomB16

Mortgage u/w said:


> I don't know any vaccine where they are hiding data.......do you?


You seem remarkably outspoken given your acute lack of familiarity with the subject matter. Actually, this is the whole point of my post.

None of the trial studies or follow up studies from any company are available.

The company most forthcoming is Moderna, who offer to field freedom of information requests, starting at the end of 2022. That's the end of this year. They indicate it will take them up to 12 months to process these requests. That is the end of 2023.

Pfizer has said they will consider requests starting at the end of 2023 and I seem to recall JNJ is also at the end of 2023. Again, this is when they will accept requests, not when the information will be provided.

The FDA has also not published their study which was used to approve the vaccine.

I understand why they did it. Any information would be twisted, misrepresented, and weaponized. At the end of the day, however, a lie is a lie.


----------



## HappilyRetired

TomB16 said:


> The FDA has also not published their study which was used to approve the vaccine.
> 
> I understand why they did it. Any information would be twisted, misrepresented, and weaponized. At the end of the day, however, a lie is a lie.


That's funny...they're hiding information to prevent misrepresentation of the data. Full transparency would solve that so-called potential problem.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I am not under scrutiny here, as I did not decide to administer it to two or three hundred million people, knowing that 1223 people died during the test, and claiming it is "totally safe".
> 
> I'm open to criticism with regard to the data I have presented or the integrity of the source. In this case, it is a document that was produced under court order by the producer of the vaccine so I think trying to undermine this document to fit into your world view is going to be some infertile soil.
> 
> For my part, I'm glad to have taken three doses but would have preferred a scientific approach. Science requires open and peer reviewed data. This vaccine was engineered.


 ... say hypothetically, you're right that they "lied". Or the vaccine was actually engineered as a bio-tracking device with nano-particles. Then what? Sue?


----------



## OptsyEagle

HappilyRetired said:


> It was 1,223 deaths in the first 3 months of the vaccine trial, not the first 3 months of worldwide use. Big difference.


No it wasn't. It was 1,223 deaths between December 1, 2020 till February 28, 2021. TomB16 mentioned they were from the trial in error.


----------



## Mortgage u/w

TomB16 said:


> You seem remarkably outspoken given your acute lack of familiarity with the subject matter. Actually, this is the whole point of my post.
> 
> None of the trial studies or follow up studies from any company are available.
> 
> The company most forthcoming is Moderna, who offer to field freedom of information requests, starting at the end of 2022. That's the end of this year. They indicate it will take them up to 12 months to process these requests. That is the end of 2023.
> 
> Pfizer has said they will consider requests starting at the end of 2023 and I seem to recall JNJ is also at the end of 2023. Again, this is when they will accept requests, not when the information will be provided.
> 
> The FDA has also not published their study which was used to approve the vaccine.
> 
> I understand why they did it. Any information would be twisted, misrepresented, and weaponized. At the end of the day, however, a lie is a lie.


I am not familiar at all. I would be one of those "sheep" that trusts and follows.

My point is no other vaccine in history was scrutinized as much as Covid was. So its only normal that there are so many questions, opinions and interpretations on this one. Why is no one scrutinizing the influenza vaccine? What about the ton of Cancer medications and their side-effects? I can go on.


----------



## OptsyEagle

TomB16 said:


> None of the trial studies or follow up studies from any company are available.


All the trial studies for the vaccines were published publicly.

This data you posted about is data that has come from research by Pfizer, after the trial studies. These companies continue to study their drugs and report to the various health agencies regularly on an ongoing basis.

Why the FDA was forced to release the data by court order is total speculation at this point. They said it was to review the submissions to ensure that they did not disclose any proprietary information owned by Pfizer, where they would be subject to liability. I believe the FDA had about 500,000 pages of data. I can't say at this stage that anything is amiss but of course until we go through all of it, no one can say much about anything. It is a lot of information for anyone to have to review. I can sympathize as much with the FDA as I can with the plaintiffs on this matter. 

At the end of the day, I do love that it has been published, since it should spead up the review process. If anyone comes up with something from it, more substantial then what Dr. John did in his video above, I will be very appreciative to review it.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Listen. More information about these vaccines are going to be coming out. We obviously have some people here who have already positioned themselves on either side of the "vaccines are safe, the vaccines are dangerous" debate. Let's make an attempt to change our position to being on the side of the truth.

Let's take a look at this situation posted about today. What we have is a court order for the FDA to release information to the public. Now one can assume that if the FDA required a court order, it must mean that the FDA is trying to hide something. Now remember, both parties to this court case agree that there were over 500,000 pages of information that the FDA had in their possession, from Pfizer alone. It seems reasonable that some of that information might be proprietary and that the FDA would have signed a non-disclosure document pertaining to any proprietary information. Pfizer is a publicly traded company. We do have to be cognizant of that responsibility, as well.

The way I see it, is just look at what the FDA has released already. Did they release the data on how the bottles of vaccine did not fit very well in the shipping boxes? Or about how the truck deliveries from Pfizer to the airport had less spoilage then the truck deliveries from the airport to the clinics. NO. They issued the data about ALL the adverse events. Who got sick. What happened to them. Every medical problem anyone might have had. Who died, why they died, how old they were when they died. The precise stuff that someone at the FDA would want to read first if they were given 350 boxes with about 500,000 pages of data in them. It looks to me like the FDA is doing their job. The only issue is, it is a freakin big job. The are looking at the most important pages first, and then they are releasing them and redacting any proprietary information pertaining to Pfizer. So far I don't see any conspiracy here.

So, let's try not to lose our heads and let's review the data scientifically and unemotionally and leave our skeptical minds out of it...for once, or at least let's try to do that.


----------



## MrMatt

Mortgage u/w said:


> I am not familiar at all. I would be one of those "sheep" that trusts and follows.
> 
> My point is no other vaccine in history was scrutinized as much as Covid was. So its only normal that there are so many questions, opinions and interpretations on this one. Why is no one scrutinizing the influenza vaccine? What about the ton of Cancer medications and their side-effects? I can go on.


People do scrutinize the influenza vaccine.

But why the difference between Flu & COVID vaccines
It's a proven technology.
It has a long history of minimal serious reactions.
You can also opt out.

The COVID19 vaccines are a new technology, 
It was rushed, 
It has documented serious reactions and caused death, 
It's mandatory with significant pressure being applied.


Honestly if they simply said ""COVID vaccine for those who want it, and it's okay to say no", like they do for the flu vaccine, I don't think they'd have as much public opposition.


----------



## TomB16

OptsyEagle said:


> No it wasn't. It was 1,223 deaths between December 1, 2020 till February 28, 2021. TomB16 mentioned they were from the trial in error.


My post is not worded well. The main info in the video (I linked the video because it contains all of the other links) comes from a study taken just after the emergency approval and these deaths were not disclosed until ordered by a court. Even then, it is far from a complete set of study data.


----------



## TomB16

OptsyEagle said:


> All the trial studies for the vaccines were published publicly.


No they were not and still are not. Most of the data has not been published and is not open for peer review, as required to be scientifically valid.

Cherry picking data to prove a point is specifically not science.


----------



## TomB16

OptsyEagle said:


> So, let's try not to lose our heads and let's review the data scientifically and unemotionally and leave our skeptical minds out of it...for once, or at least let's try to do that.


No.

I think I know why the CDC/FDA/etc has not been open with us. Any information would be misrepresented and used as a weapon.

The issue is, this places the health of North America in the hands of a few decision makers because they don't want anyone else to scrutinize their work.

Dr. Campbell and some other sources (primarily outside of North America) have the appearance of being far more objective, from my point of view. I prefer data sources that have the credibility of being actual science.

This makes me pro-science, hesitantly pro-fax (hesitant because my position is based on speculation), and profoundly against the North American politcal manure pile.


----------



## bgc_fan

TomB16 said:


> For you pro-vax folks, here is something to think about.
> 
> Pfizer released *a couple of* statistics from the first three months of case study of their vaccine. They did this under court order and they appear to have obfuscated as much as possible (with some redaction and a custom written document to fulfill the court order).
> 
> There were 1223 "vaccine related" deaths in the first three months of the vaccine trial. They do not indicate how many doses were given. This is now on the public record.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, the narrative of "it's totally safe" has been proven to be a lie. The conclusion is likely that the vaccine has a strong risk/reward benefit but it cannot be concluded that it is "totally safe", on account of 1223 deaths and 158,893 reported "events" from the vaccine.


Here's the fact check:








Articles inaccurately claim document reveals Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine deaths


Online articles shared on social media claim a document released by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) revealed more than 1,200 deaths related to Pfizer-BioNTech's Covid-19 vaccine in a 90-day period. But the pharmaceutical giant says the document does not indicate the fatalities are...




factcheck.afp.com





To start, the phase 3 clinical trial started in July 2020:
The Phase 3 clinical trial of BNT162b2 began on July 27 and has enrolled 43,661 participants to date, 41,135 of whom have received a second dose of the vaccine candidate as of November 13, 2020.

So that bit about timing is pretty off, meaning can't really take it seriously when we're talking about deaths between Dec 2020 and Feb 2021 and saying that it was during the 3 months of trial.

It's also worth noting that your numbers are off if you are talking about the trial as you are saying that almost 4 times the people are reporting events than were actually in the trial.

The 1,223 "vaccine related" deaths were health authorities around the world reporting them, but there were no verification that they were actually vaccine related. Just like the VAERS system that anti-vaxxers like to use as proof. You can put anything into it, but until it's verified information, you take it with a grain of salt. For example, one person reported that a vaccine turned him into the Incredible Hulk in 2004 to make the point that it was not the greatest reporting system. Some self-reported CDC data fueling the anti-vaccination movement. In order to remove it, they required his permission to do so.


----------



## OptsyEagle

TomB16 said:


> No they were not and still are not. Most of the data has not been published and is not open for peer review, as required to be scientifically valid.
> 
> Cherry picking data to prove a point is specifically not science.


The full submission to the FDA for approval of the vaccines was published publicly even before the vaccines were approved and used. It contained mega pages of info on the numbers of trial subjects and placebo subjects, their ages, races, genders, and known commodities. They published the efficacy results with confidence level calculations as well as reporting the exact number of infections in each group and at what precise time, during the trial, those infections were observed. They listed all adverse events for every trial participant along with their final outcomes. They published every side effect that was observed or reported by both trial and placebo participants. It's all there to see and has been for over a year.

You call that cherry picking data. Come on Tom??? If you find something that we should actually be worried about please let us know. So far this is not it.


----------



## s1231

Will be interesting to see more analyzing from the recent Pfizer documents.

Public Health and Medical Professionals for Transparency, Pfizer / FDA FOI
https://phmpt.org


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> The full submission to the FDA for approval of the vaccines was published publicly even before the vaccines were approved and used.


Then why did a judge have to issue an order to publish the data?








Why a Judge Ordered FDA to Release Covid-19 Vaccine Data Pronto


A group of scientists and medical researchers sued the FDA under FOIA to force release of hundreds of thousands of documents related to licensing of the Pfizer-BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine. Plaintiff’s attorney Aaron Siri, who is representing the group, explains the fight that led a federal court...




news.bloomberglaw.com







> You call that cherry picking data. Come on Tom??? If you find something that we should actually be worried about please let us know. So far this is not it.


We can't cherry pick data, because they're not sharing it.
They "agreed" to publish it, but only over the next few decades.

The question is if the submission can be reviewed and verified in weeks, why does it take months to publish it?
Someone is stalling.

I don't actually think there is a grand conspiracy, but come on, they should be able to publish the data in less time than it takes to review the data.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> Then why did a judge have to issue an order to publish the data?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a Judge Ordered FDA to Release Covid-19 Vaccine Data Pronto
> 
> 
> A group of scientists and medical researchers sued the FDA under FOIA to force release of hundreds of thousands of documents related to licensing of the Pfizer-BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine. Plaintiff’s attorney Aaron Siri, who is representing the group, explains the fight that led a federal court...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.bloomberglaw.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We can't cherry pick data, because they're not sharing it.
> They "agreed" to publish it, but only over the next few decades.
> 
> The question is if the submission can be reviewed and verified in weeks, why does it take months to publish it?
> Someone is stalling.
> 
> I don't actually think there is a grand conspiracy, but come on, they should be able to publish the data in less time than it takes to review the data.


That information just published is not the original trial data that was used to approve the vaccines. The vaccine trials were done a very long time ago and as I said, the reports submitted to the FDA were published publicly even before the vaccines were approved. I saw them.

The data that Tom is talking about is another study or trial done much later. I have no idea why it was not published publicly but as I said previously, it was submitted to the FDA and contained over 500,000 pages. The FDA said there was proprietary information within it that they agreed to keep confidential. In order to publish it they would need to go through every page and redact any information that was proprietary to Pfizer's business. With 500,000 pages you can see why the FDA felt it was going to take a very long time. They probably did not want to hire 200 extra staff members just to publish this data so that everyone can misinterpret it like everyone is doing right now...and I can understand that. Especially now.

Did no one see or review the original trial reports? I reviewed them all probably 4 or 5 times and they were very extensive and encompassed everything that I feel was needed to approve a vaccine. They should all be on the FDA website if you want to take a peak. The search function is a little wanky but they are there. Astra Zeneca might not be because it was not approved by the FDA but Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson and Johnson were all there the last time I checked.


----------



## OptsyEagle

OK, so here is Pfizer's and Moderna's submission documents to the FDA for the original approval of the vaccines. Both were published in December of 2020:

Pfizer: 92 pages of trial data, all made available to the public by the FDA


https://www.fda.gov/media/144246/download



Moderna: 84 pages of trial data, all made available to the public by the FDA


https://www.fda.gov/media/144452/download


----------



## Synergy

Why can't the media, some doctors and the public get their heads out of their _^#@_
*We had no idea’: Unvaccinated B.C. doctor stuns patients over COVID-19 beliefs. ‘We had no idea’: Unvaccinated B.C. doctor stuns patients over COVID-19 beliefs | Globalnews.ca *

We now know that current vaccines have minimal impact on transmission and that natural infection can create a robust protection against future infection. These are not opinions or beliefs. It's sad that both sides of the spectrum can't seem to follow the science and use a little bit of common sense.

We needed everyone to get vaccinated to help reduce hospitalization, severe illness and death. You may not agree with the fact that a small minority of people can't or don't want to get vaccinated but lets not spin what some are saying and / or the data to support your beliefs. Both "head in the sand" extremes seem to do this. Doesn't seem to be a lot of critical thinkers left in society.

Based on what we know today there's really no reason why the doctor should not be able to continue practicing. Have her pay for her own medical care if she comes down with severe illness and didn't "want" to be vaccinated but let's not ruin her career and tarnish her reputation.

If I'm missing something please let me know.


----------



## HappilyRetired

TomB16 said:


> I think I know why the CDC/FDA/etc has not been open with us. Any information would be misrepresented and used as a weapon.


That makes no sense. They could have released the data and any supposed misinformation would have been drowned out by the CDC, FDA, government, and the majority of the media who are all pro vax. They would have been shouting from the rooftops how safe the vaccine is...you know, like they've been doing non-stop since the day Biden took office. A data release would have supported their position and also deflated misinformation.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Synergy said:


> If I'm missing something please let me know.


It's never really been about the science.


----------



## s1231

Other countries' doctors & Mayors are more discussing about vaccine risks vs benefits.
(especially for youth)
---


https://floridahealthcovid19.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/g2-jtr_QWBT4hJpqr.pdf



Guidance for Pediatric COVID-19 Vaccines March 8, 2022 Florida recognizes that parents should always be empowered to make the best health decisions for their children.

It is essential that health care practitioners review all data to evaluate risks and benefits unique to each patient when determining what health care services to provide, including the administration of COVID-19 vaccines. 

These decisions should be made on an individual basis. As the risks of administering a COVID-19 vaccine to healthy children may outweigh the benefits, the Florida Department of Health has issued the following guidance: 
Based on currently available data, healthy children aged 5 to 17 may not benefit from receiving the currently available COVID-19 vaccine. 

The Department recommends that children with underlying conditions are the best candidates for the COVID-19 vaccine.


----------



## james4beach

s1231 said:


> Other countries' doctors & Mayors are more discussing about vaccine risks vs benefits


Um given the death rates in the US, they aren't exactly a "model" to look up to. Places like Florida should be looking to Canada and learn how to actually protect their citizens.

Additionally, the American right-wing has made this a political issue so it's very hard to trust information coming out of Republican areas.


----------



## s1231

countries --- will see more those data coming.

Florida's sources are alright,


https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346


Original Investigation January 25, 2022
Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based COVID-19 Vaccination in the US From December 2020 to August 2021
--








Effectiveness of the BNT162b2 vaccine among children 5-11 and 12-17 years in New York after the Emergence of the Omicron Variant


Importance There is limited evidence on the effectiveness of the BNT162b2 vaccine for children, particularly those 5-11 years and after the Omicron variant’s emergence. Objective To estimate BNT162b2 vaccine effectiveness against COVID cases and hospitalizations among children 5-11 years and...




www.medrxiv.org




*--*
www.youtube.com/watch?v=laaL0_xKmmA
U.S. Food and Drug Administration
Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee – 10/26/2021

Join the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for an upcoming meeting of its Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee (VRBPAC) to discuss newly available data for the currently available COVID-19 vaccines.

The committee will meet to discuss a request to amend Pfizer-BioNTech’s Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) for administration of their COVID-19 mRNA vaccine to children 5 through 11 years of age.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Um given the death rates in the US, they aren't exactly a "model" to look up to. Places like Florida should be looking to Canada and learn how to actually protect their citizens.
> 
> Additionally, the American right-wing has made this a political issue so it's very hard to trust information coming out of Republican areas.


COVID was political from the beginning.

It is hard to trust information coming out of any politician.
Trudeau constantly lied throughout the pandemic as well.

Add in a bit of partisan censorhip of "disinformation" and you've got a mess.
Sure there was a lot of crap that shouldn't have been spread, but legitimate research and valid opinons were also being blocked/limited.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> OK, so here is Pfizer's and Moderna's submission documents to the FDA for the original approval of the vaccines. Both were published in December of 2020:
> 
> Pfizer: 92 pages of trial data, all made available to the public by the FDA
> 
> 
> https://www.fda.gov/media/144246/download
> 
> 
> 
> Moderna: 84 pages of trial data, all made available to the public by the FDA
> 
> 
> https://www.fda.gov/media/144452/download


 ... as if anyone (including CMFrs) are gonna to read those pages - 84 or 92 pages ... not 500,000+ ... LOL!!!!


----------



## sags

If you listened to the ER doctors.......the un-vaccinated were the patients dying on ventilators.

Vaccinations saved lives and after hundreds of millions of vaccinations appear to be very safe.


----------



## sags

Hong Kong didn't vaccinate en masse and were presented as the best way to deal with the pandemic.

Now they are dedicating half of their hospital beds to covid patients, and frantically scheduling mass vaccinations.

China is rushing support in to help with the worsening crisis.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> If you listened to the ER doctors.......the un-vaccinated were the patients dying on ventilators.
> 
> Vaccinations saved lives and after hundreds of millions of vaccinations appear to be very safe.


 ... and if there was no vaccine developed, the very same Covidiots would be the first and LOUDEST to be screaming for HELP!!!! We can't let this happen with the economy going to sh1t, why are we paying taxes to our stupid politicians ... bang, boom, bang, yada, yada, yada ... and still now blah, blah, blah ...


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Hong Kong didn't vaccinate en masse and were presented as the best way to deal with the pandemic.
> 
> Now they are dedicating half of their hospital beds to covid patients, and frantically scheduling mass vaccinations.
> 
> China is rushing support in to help with the worsening crisis.


 ... not sure what's the vaccine rate is for HK but we know what's ours (Ontario) and we're gonna have our very own experiment (vax, mask, et al) to find out after March break ... just in time for April 1st too. I hope Dr. Moore got his cv updated if the experiment turns out to be a disaster (for Ontario).

Meanwhile from the Science Advisory Table (article is behind a paywall):

Rising levels of COVID-19 detected in Toronto wastewater as province drops mask mandate


----------



## sags

Yup......some people are worried about long past vaccine clinical trials while we are removing masks and restrictions and entering a much larger clinical trial of living with a dangerous virus. They worry about the wrong things.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Yup......some people are worried about long past vaccine clinical trials while we are removing masks and restrictions and entering a much larger clinical trial of living with a dangerous virus. *They worry about the wrong things.*


 ... they need to "keep" "busy" ... the self-induced ADHD syndrome displayed in those posts.


----------



## bgc_fan

sags said:


> Hong Kong didn't vaccinate en masse and were presented as the best way to deal with the pandemic.
> 
> Now they are dedicating half of their hospital beds to covid patients, and frantically scheduling mass vaccinations.
> 
> China is rushing support in to help with the worsening crisis.


So, Hong Kong is a special case when it comes to vaccinations... they have an overall vaccination rate of 79% (second dose), but the problem is that their elderly population is undervaccinated: 30% over age 80, and 58% in their 70s. They basically got complacent with the covid 0 policy that worked well up until now. But with Omicron spreading like wildfire, it's hitting the usual vulnerable populations. Kind of expected as it is just as deadly as the original variant, and not some weakened variant that people seem to think.


----------



## damian13ster

Covid now less deadly than flu


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> ...
> *Covid now less deadly than flu*


 ... then declare the pandemic (for Covid) is over.


----------



## sags

damian13ster will be right eventually.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> View attachment 22920
> 
> View attachment 22923
> 
> 
> 
> Covid now less deadly than flu


And yet, you keep forgetting the key part that it's less dangerous IF you are vaccinated as indicated on your first chart. Without vaccination you wouldn't see the same curve. Which is happening in Hong Kong.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Omicron is also significantly more infectious then the flu. 

With that said, including the post above, we should be able to see that the problem and its solution will come from the same source. Omicron. Once we drop the remaining precautions, the high infection rate of Omicron will inoculate the remaining unvaccinated very quickly, and when that is completed, it should drive the fatality rate so far into the ground no one will mistake that the pandemic is over.

If we lose a few unvaccinated citizens along the way, at least we can say we did not interfere with their right to make these decisions for themselves. I call it a win, win.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> And yet, you keep forgetting the key part that it's less dangerous IF you are vaccinated as indicated on your first chart. Without vaccination you wouldn't see the same curve. Which is happening in Hong Kong.


The charts don't differentiate by vaccination status. Neither for covid, nor for flu.

Hong Kong actually has vaccination rate that's pretty close to UK.
They just don't have natural immunity


----------



## TomB16

OptsyEagle said:


> The full submission to the FDA for approval of the vaccines was published publicly even before the vaccines were approved and used.


Sure. There was a submission. It was full in that it was submitted.

Tell me, what was the death rate from taking the vaccine? You know... from the studies. Any study that came from either Pfizer, CDC or FDA will suffice.

While you're there, how about citing the odds of having one or more side effect(s).

I've had three injections of Phizer. I wish to know the risk I was under and will be under again, should another shot come around and I choose to take it.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> The charts don't differentiate by vaccination status. Neither for covid, nor for flu.
> 
> Hong Kong actually has vaccination rate that's pretty close to UK.
> They just don't have natural immunity


You should look again at the chart where is specifically points how the fatality ratio decreases due to the vaccination of vulnerable population. 
As I said before, Hong Kong didn't vaccinate the vulnerable population which is why there is a difference.


----------



## OptsyEagle

TomB16 said:


> I've had three injections of Phizer. I wish to know the risk I was under and will be under again, should another shot come around and I choose to take it.


Why are you asking me? Do you feel dead? Do you think you are doing what dead people are doing or have a lot of the same symptoms of someone who is dead? Are you feeling disabled in some way? What exactly are you complaining about? Do you have covid, or are you are pissed off because you don't have covid and Pfizer deprived you or your right to have covid? It sounds like you are still alive so I am having a hard time understanding what your complaint is.

I know you want to complain, because I have read your posts, but it does not sound like you are overly appreciative of the life protective benefits that the vaccines have given you. I assume that you knew that covid was fairly dangerous or you would not have taken the vaccines in the first place. So what exactly are you upset about. So far the vaccines have saved millions of lives. It that what you are against?


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> While you're there, how about citing the odds of having one or more side effect(s).
> 
> I've had three injections of Phizer. I wish to know the risk I was under and will be under again, should another shot come around and I choose to take it.


Tom, I think it's legitimate to ask about side effects and Ontario publishes an excellent study of these. Google for ontario AEFI, and here's a link


https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/epi/covid-19-aefi-report.pdf?sc_lang=en



This is a good report on the observed side effects, including the worst ones and fatal ones. All the rates can be found in this document. Appendix B lists the side effects per population. Based on those rates I would definitely avoid the J&J and AZ vaccines, but the MRNA vaccines all have reasonably low rates.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Tom, I think it's legitimate to ask about side effects and Ontario publishes an excellent study of these. Google for ontario AEFI, and here's a link
> 
> 
> https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/epi/covid-19-aefi-report.pdf?sc_lang=en
> 
> 
> 
> This is a good report on the observed side effects, including the worst ones and fatal ones. All the rates can be found in this document. Appendix B lists the side effects per population. Based on those rates I would definitely avoid the J&J and AZ vaccines, but the MRNA vaccines all have reasonably low rates.


Based on this, they pulled AZ prematurely.
Similarly for non-pediatrics in the current environment, it's not justified to demand vaccination at this point.


----------



## sags

Many people who chose not to trust the vaccines are now dead or have severe residual symptoms.

_I wish I never took the vaccine_.........said nobody suffering from covid.


----------



## Synergy

MrMatt said:


> Trudeau constantly lied throughout the pandemic as well.


Part of the problem with Trudeau is the fact that he's not very intelligent, says stupid things and relies on others to to the thinking for him. Not qualities we want in a prime minister. But he has good hair so he got voted in.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> You should look again at the chart where is specifically points how the fatality ratio decreases due to the vaccination of vulnerable population.
> As I said before, Hong Kong didn't vaccinate the vulnerable population which is why there is a difference.


So Hong Kong has 73% of population fully vaccinated yet they decided not to vaccinate the vulnerable population? Haven't checked vaccine status by age distribution but it sounds highly unlikely.


----------



## james4beach

BC public health had a press conference today, and estimates that:

90% of the entire BC population has some kind of immunity (either vaccination or natural infection), and
95% of those age 12+ have some kind of immunity

Pretty amazing stats, if true. Note that "some immunity" doesn't mean you can't get sick. It means you are unlikely to end up dying of Covid.

Also, these numbers will vary by province. BC has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world.


----------



## Synergy

james4beach said:


> Pretty amazing stats, if true. Note that "some immunity" doesn't mean you can't get sick. It means you are unlikely to end up dying of Covid.


Vaccinated individuals can still get pretty sick. Colleague of mine just got out of emergency. Triple vaxed, mid 40's, relatively healthy for today's standards (free of disease, overweight and inactive). Was on IV for secondary complications. Will likely be in home isolation / recovery for 2 wks.


----------



## james4beach

Synergy said:


> Vaccinated individuals can still get pretty sick. Colleague of mine just got out of emergency. Triple vaxed, mid 40's, relatively healthy for today's standards (free of disease, overweight and inactive). Was on IV for secondary complications. Will likely be in home isolation / recovery for 2 wks.


Yes this is very noteworthy. People will continue to get sick, and some of that will be very severe. I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

I think continuing to be cautious, and wearing masks, is absolutely the right move. The pandemic isn't over, and this is not just a standard cold or flu.

Many of my colleagues are Americans. They are back to partying and socializing "like normal", but they are all catching Covid. And yes, they're triple vaccinated. These people all have gatherings, work functions, and people are frequently catching Covid after these events.

Sometimes, triple-vaccinated people get this idea that they are invincible. This certainly was the problem back in December. So I'm actually careful to look at someone's behaviour. If they seem to think they're invincible, I avoid contact with them.


----------



## james4beach

I listened to the entire BC public health press conference where they announced BC is relaxing restrictions.

I noticed a strong implication by Bonnie Henry that it's not really that the covid situation is tremendously safer than before, but rather, the desire to accommodate those who are feeling too much anxiety and inconvenience from restrictions, including mental health effects.

She said that they are always struggling to find this balance. The public health restrictions absolutely do curtail the spread of disease, but she noted, there have been mental health and other quality of life effects. It's clear to me that the province is shifting that calibration point, to favour those who are frustrated with restrictions, even though it comes at the expense of more people getting sick.

So one *should NOT misinterpret* these relaxing rules as a sign of an "all clear". It's nothing of that sort. Covid remains very dangerous, and will still kill a lot of people. We are just shifting to accommodate the needs of people who insist that they can no longer handle restrictions to their lifestyle.

This is entirely about the calibration of Public Health restrictions. Very subjective obviously.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> She said that they are always struggling to find this balance.


I think this is the simple point that too many people miss.

There are multiple factors and we have to find the right balance, that is something that has been sorely lacking from the debate, on almost every topic.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I think this is the simple point that too many people miss.
> 
> There are multiple factors and we have to find the right balance, that is something that has been sorely lacking from the debate, on almost every topic.


 ... that's because politicians and their influencers stick their noses where they don't belong.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I listened to the entire BC public health press conference where they announced BC is relaxing restrictions.
> 
> I noticed a strong implication by Bonnie Henry that it's not really that the covid situation is tremendously safer than before, but rather, the desire to accommodate those who are feeling too much anxiety and inconvenience from restrictions, including mental health effects.
> 
> She said that they are always struggling to find this balance. The public health restrictions absolutely do curtail the spread of disease, but she noted, there have been mental health and other quality of life effects. It's clear to me that the province is shifting that calibration point, to favour those who are frustrated with restrictions, even though it comes at the expense of more people getting sick.
> 
> So one *should NOT misinterpret* these relaxing rules as a sign of an "all clear". It's nothing of that sort. Covid remains very dangerous, and will still kill a lot of people. We are just shifting to accommodate the needs of people who insist that they can no longer handle restrictions to their lifestyle.
> 
> *This is entirely about the calibration of Public Health restrictions.* Very subjective obviously.


 ...interpretation: you're on your own buddy.


----------



## TomB16

OptsyEagle said:


> Why are you asking me? Do you feel dead?


I'm asking you because you "saw them". At least, the studies of the initial trial.



OptsyEagle said:


> That information just published is not the original trial data that was used to approve the vaccines. The vaccine trials were done a very long time ago and as I said, the reports submitted to the FDA were published publicly even before the vaccines were approved. I saw them.


At this point, the FDA was sued under the freedom of information act. This court victory caused Phizer to publish the number of vaccine related deaths during the period of December 01, 2020 and February 28, 2021. The vaccine wasn't given emergency approval until December 11, 2020 (link below).









FDA Takes Key Action in Fight Against COVID-19 By Issuing Emergency Use Authorization for First COVID-19 Vaccine


Today, the FDA issued the first EUA for a vaccine for the prevention of COVID-19 caused by SARS-CoV-2 in individuals 16 years of age and older.




www.fda.gov








OptsyEagle said:


> That information just published is not the original trial data that was used to approve the vaccines. The vaccine trials were done a very long time ago and as I said, the reports submitted to the FDA were published publicly even before the vaccines were approved. I saw them.


Incorrect. It does include a very small segment of data from the trial period. See above.




OptsyEagle said:


> The full submission to the FDA for approval of the vaccines was published publicly even before the vaccines were approved and used. It contained mega pages of info on the numbers of trial subjects and placebo subjects, their ages, races, genders, and known commodities.


What does "full submission" mean? It clearly does not mean that all available data was published, as above.




OptsyEagle said:


> You call that cherry picking data. Come on Tom??? If you find something that we should actually be worried about please let us know. So far this is not it.


So, what is the death rate?

We know there were 1223 vaccine related deaths during the period of December 01, 2020 and February 28, 2021. We know there were 42086 related medical cases. We don't know what the cases were or how many people were in the study.

FDA commissioner Janet Woodcock MD has said, "...millions of people have already safely received COVID-19 vaccine...". I understand she said this sometime around the end of this study. She made no mention that 1223 people did not receive their COVID-19 vaccine safely.

Don't you think a safety study of a vaccine ought to include the number of people under study and the number of deaths? If they had done so, we could have used long division to calculate the death rate.

If we don't know the death rate, what do we know? This was a safety study.

You know what I would call that? Cherry picking of data.


Look, you can use dismissive language all you want but science, by definition, requires open and peer reviewed data. We simply do not have that here. What we have is some data voluntarily published and some other surprising but incomplete data issued only under court order.

I prefer science. That's why I follow European studies of the virus and the vaccines. That's why I am pleased to have had Omicron. That's how I knew the vaccine booster is likely only effective for a couple of months. That's how I knew the original two doses of vaccine was all but ineffective after six months. That's how I know that Omicron has very likely provided strong (but not completely invulnerable) immunity against COVID for many years. Science.

I wish the conspiracy theorists were 100% wrong, so I could point at them and laugh. OK, I still point at them and laugh but they have been correct about a couple of things. Ivermectin is one of the things they were right about. Ivermectin has been shown to significantly reduce mortality rate in COVID patients and yet physicians who prescribe it in the US were in danger of loosing their licenses for doing so. That doesn't sound all that objective to me.


----------



## TomB16

Speaking of Ivermectin...

There was a study of an entire city in Brazil (Itajai). This is not the study but an analysis of the study posted on nih.gov.









Ivermectin Prophylaxis Used for COVID-19: A Citywide, Prospective, Observational Study of 223,128 Subjects Using Propensity Score Matching - PubMed


In this large PSM study, regular use of ivermectin as a prophylactic agent was associated with significantly reduced COVID-19 infection, hospitalization, and mortality rates.




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





Someone posted a rebuttal to the study, mentioning that most of the Invermectin recipients did not take all of the pills they were given. I'm not sure what that means. It's hard to imagine they followed up on the 159,561 people in the study and "most" is not quantified or justified.

In support of the study, the city is home to 223,128 people and my understanding is they selected the highest risk people for the 159,561 study sample set.

Anyway, it was found that a tiny dose of Ivermectin reduce the chance of getting COVID by 44%, reduced the chance of hospitalization by 56%, and reduced the mortality rate by 68%.


And yet, CNN calls it a "pet deworming drug" and the FDA continues to recommend against it's use.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ...interpretation: you're on your own buddy.


Yup, everyone on their own. But what's scary is that the government has basically been forced by very loud people to shift public policy towards a more dangerous "balance point".

And it's not even good public policy. When fall and winter arrive, covid levels are likely going to surge again (especially with waning vaccine immunity) which is going to force the governments to, again, either bring back mandatory masks, or possibly even more restrictions. There are going to be new restrictions in place by next December, for sure.

A big factor in all this might actually be the terrible decisions by the Ford government. While other provinces had more nuanced public policy approaches, Ford was pretty clueless during the pandemic. Out of desperation (and to compensate for his previous inability to act) he put in very harsh restrictions in Ontario.

Now we're getting a backlash to those kinds of measures. And it's going to endanger everyone (especially the elderly) all because Ford f**ed up the pandemic response.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> A big factor in all this might actually be the terrible decisions by the Ford government. While other provinces had more nuanced public policy approaches, Ford was pretty clueless during the pandemic. Out of desperation (and to compensate for his previous inability to act) he put in very harsh restrictions in Ontario.
> 
> Now we're getting a backlash to those kinds of measures. And it's going to endanger everyone (especially the elderly) all because Ford f**ed up the pandemic response.


Did other provinces try a regional approach, so the local authorities could act according to the circumstances in that specific area?

I don't completely agree with Ford, but he hit a better balance than most.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Did other provinces try a regional approach, so the local authorities could act according to the circumstances in that specific area?
> 
> I don't completely agree with Ford, but he hit a better balance than most.


That regional health approach was a disaster. People in Ontario was confused about what the rules were. And the rules kept changing, constantly.

Ford f**ed up big time. I can tell that even you didn't enjoy the "lock downs". Not every province had such harsh restrictions, and not every province confused the hell out of residents.

You couldn't have possibly enjoyed Ford's constant flip-flopping policies. One moment everything is open, the next moment everything is shut down. But only in the GTA, or is it, only outside the GTA. C'mon man, that was a **** show.

Where I live, there were no lockdowns. I can barely understand what people in Ontario are talking about with these restrictions... for two years, I've been mostly unrestricted, doing just about everything I want. Stores have always been open. And the public policy in my province has been consistent over time, not flip flopping.


----------



## james4beach

One of the most harmful things to Canadians during this pandemic were conservative governments.

Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and the big one -- Ontario.

Canada did well overall but we would have done even better if it wasn't for these awful premiers, corrupted by business interests, who could barely run their provinces. Arguably Kenney was the worst, repeatedly bringing his province to the brink of healthcare failure. The Manitoba premier f***ed up so badly as well that he fled the post during the pandemic. The public was furious with him.

Moe in SK was another disaster. Can't believe this guy is willing to show his face in public after what he did.

It seems from the last 2 years that conservative governments seem pretty inept, generally. Always prioritizing business interests (of course), people's health be damned, the hospitals be damned.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> That regional health approach was a disaster. People in Ontario was confused about what the rules were. And the rules kept changing, constantly.
> 
> Ford f**ed up big time. I can tell that even you didn't enjoy the "lock downs". Not every province had such harsh restrictions, and not every province confused the hell out of residents.
> 
> You couldn't have possibly enjoyed Ford's constant flip-flopping policies. One moment everything is open, the next moment everything is shut down. But only in the GTA, or is it, only outside the GTA. C'mon man, that was a **** show.
> 
> Where I live, there were no lockdowns. I can barely understand what people in Ontario are talking about with these restrictions... for two years, I've been mostly unrestricted, doing just about everything I want. Stores have always been open. And the public policy in my province has been consistent over time, not flip flopping.


 ... I don't think Ford had a choice with the"flip-floppings" given the continuous "waves" that were happening in Ontario. [I can't say the same for the "Education Minister" S. Leccee (sic). That's a REAL FLIP-FLOPPER, so INDECISIVE. I wonder how he even managed to get the job.]

As for the "restrictions", they were there for a purpose (not as if the authorities enjoy imposing them) which I didn't consider them as "harsh" as exaggerated by some (particularly the "freedom fighters for thyself"). Inconvenienced, yes.

My concern currently, as an Ontarian, is the lifting of the mask - particularly in high risk settings. The province's "top" full-time political/part-time medical doctor announced the mask mandate will be removed from all public settings except LTCs and hospitals I believe. This means no masking required in "schools" comes March 18(?) and now the TDSB (Toronto District School Board) is in disagreement with that.

Anyhow, I follow Dr. I. Bogoch, UHN Infectious Disease doctor's opinion more than any of the "experts" combined. And he stated it's abit too early to be lifting the mask. 

We shall see how the top doc's experiment goes. If the numbers climb up, I'm gonna to suggest to Ford that his "top" medical advisor (above) go take a permanent vacation - somewhere.


----------



## OptsyEagle

TomB16 said:


> I'm asking you because you "saw them". At least, the studies of the initial trial.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point, the FDA was sued under the freedom of information act. This court victory caused Phizer to publish the number of vaccine related deaths during the period of December 01, 2020 and February 28, 2021. The vaccine wasn't given emergency approval until December 11, 2020 (link below).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FDA Takes Key Action in Fight Against COVID-19 By Issuing Emergency Use Authorization for First COVID-19 Vaccine
> 
> 
> Today, the FDA issued the first EUA for a vaccine for the prevention of COVID-19 caused by SARS-CoV-2 in individuals 16 years of age and older.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fda.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect. It does include a very small segment of data from the trial period. See above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does "full submission" mean? It clearly does not mean that all available data was published, as above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, what is the death rate?
> 
> We know there were 1223 vaccine related deaths during the period of December 01, 2020 and February 28, 2021. We know there were 42086 related medical cases. We don't know what the cases were or how many people were in the study.
> 
> FDA commissioner Janet Woodcock MD has said, "...millions of people have already safely received COVID-19 vaccine...". I understand she said this sometime around the end of this study. She made no mention that 1223 people did not receive their COVID-19 vaccine safely.
> 
> Don't you think a safety study of a vaccine ought to include the number of people under study and the number of deaths? If they had done so, we could have used long division to calculate the death rate.
> 
> If we don't know the death rate, what do we know? This was a safety study.
> 
> You know what I would call that? Cherry picking of data.
> 
> 
> Look, you can use dismissive language all you want but science, by definition, requires open and peer reviewed data. We simply do not have that here. What we have is some data voluntarily published and some other surprising but incomplete data issued only under court order.
> 
> I prefer science. That's why I follow European studies of the virus and the vaccines. That's why I am pleased to have had Omicron. That's how I knew the vaccine booster is likely only effective for a couple of months. That's how I knew the original two doses of vaccine was all but ineffective after six months. That's how I know that Omicron has very likely provided strong (but not completely invulnerable) immunity against COVID for many years. Science.
> 
> I wish the conspiracy theorists were 100% wrong, so I could point at them and laugh. OK, I still point at them and laugh but they have been correct about a couple of things. Ivermectin is one of the things they were right about. Ivermectin has been shown to significantly reduce mortality rate in COVID patients and yet physicians who prescribe it in the US were in danger of loosing their licenses for doing so. That doesn't sound all that objective to me.


A 92 page trial study is not science? Come on! Anyone that died during the trial was in that report. As for the 1,223 people that you keep talking about. It has not been proven they died from the vaccine. If someone in Canada dies this afternoon, there is about an 80% chance they were also vaccinated. Are we really going to just assume they died from vaccination? 

Even if those 1,223 people did die from the vaccines, one needs to compare that death rate to the death rate of the unvaccinated with Covid, to determine the risk/benefit ratio. I am pretty sure 1,223 compared to the number of people vaccinated, over that 3 month time period, is not going to be a very large number. Compared to the number of unvaccinated people that were dying from Covid, it would be almost irrelevant.

I am not sure what you want. You seem bent of finding some conspiracy so I will leave you to it. As I said, if you find something damning let us know. So far you have just supplied suspicion. That is certainly not the science you keep saying you want.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Speaking of Ivermectin...
> 
> There was a study of an entire city in Brazil (Itajai). This is not the study but an analysis of the study posted on nih.gov.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ivermectin Prophylaxis Used for COVID-19: A Citywide, Prospective, Observational Study of 223,128 Subjects Using Propensity Score Matching - PubMed
> 
> 
> In this large PSM study, regular use of ivermectin as a prophylactic agent was associated with significantly reduced COVID-19 infection, hospitalization, and mortality rates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Someone posted a rebuttal to the study, mentioning that most of the Invermectin recipients did not take all of the pills they were given. I'm not sure what that means. It's hard to imagine they followed up on the 159,561 people in the study and "most" is not quantified or justified.
> 
> In support of the study, the city is home to 223,128 people and my understanding is they selected the highest risk people for the 159,561 study sample set.
> 
> Anyway, it was found that a tiny dose of Ivermectin reduce the chance of getting COVID by 44%, reduced the chance of hospitalization by 56%, and reduced the mortality rate by 68%.
> 
> And yet, CNN calls it a "pet deworming drug" and the *FDA continues to recommend against it's use.*


 ... Tom, Tom, Tom.

A simple question - why does "_*FDA continues to recommend against its use?*_" if it is so effective in reducing death from Covid?

Also, how can one expect to reduce its chance of getting Covid by 44%, hospitalisation by 56% by using it? Isn't that like taking Tylenol - ie. continuously, only de-worming as a bonus too????


----------



## TomB16

OptsyEagle said:


> A 92 page trial study is not science?


A high number of pages does not make anything science.


----------



## OptsyEagle

TomB16 said:


> A high number of pages does not make anything science.


Why don't you read it then?


----------



## TomB16

Check this out.

Pfizer's PAXLOVID was fast tracked for approval based on initial positive findings. It appears to be an important tool in the fight against COVID. This is great.

Meanwhile, positive findings on Ivermectin have been dismissed in wholesale fashion, despite several credible studies (and admittedly a bunch of garbage non-science), and yet, Ivermectin continues to be recommended against.

So, PAXLOVID initially shows 89% death rate reduction.

A lot more data shows Ivermectin having about 68% death rate reduction. Not as good but more credible.

The reasons Ivermectin remain relevant are three fold.

1) PAXLOVID has not had several studies by peers recreating the results, as Ivermectin has.

2) The efficacy of COVID vaccines was shown to be not as good as initial, maker based, studies indicated. Perhaps PAXLOVID will have the same maker study bias?

3) Ivermectin is off patent and made in India for a ridiculously cheap price. It is can easily be made available in 3rd world countries for perhaps less than $1 for an entire treatment regimen.

[Note: auto-correct has moronically caused the mis-spelling of ivermectin. I've had to correct this post manually. Another conspiracy? Perhaps.]


----------



## TomB16

OptsyEagle said:


> Why don't you read it then?


I took a shot.

What did you find, when you read it?


----------



## OptsyEagle

TomB16 said:


> I took a shot.
> 
> What did you find, when you read it?


A lot of scientific evidence and public disclosure of results, side effects, adverse events. Everything that you keep saying they are hiding. That was my point.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> That regional health approach was a disaster. People in Ontario was confused about what the rules were. And the rules kept changing, constantly.
> 
> Ford f**ed up big time. I can tell that even you didn't enjoy the "lock downs". Not every province had such harsh restrictions, and not every province confused the hell out of residents.
> 
> You couldn't have possibly enjoyed Ford's constant flip-flopping policies. One moment everything is open, the next moment everything is shut down. But only in the GTA, or is it, only outside the GTA. C'mon man, that was a **** show.
> 
> Where I live, there were no lockdowns. I can barely understand what people in Ontario are talking about with these restrictions... for two years, I've been mostly unrestricted, doing just about everything I want. Stores have always been open. And the public policy in my province has been consistent over time, not flip flopping.


From what I recall, Ontario has the lowest number of hospital beds per capita.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> So Hong Kong has 73% of population fully vaccinated yet they decided not to vaccinate the vulnerable population? Haven't checked vaccine status by age distribution but it sounds highly unlikely.


Interesting that you responded to my posts without even reading them where I stated that the percentage vaccinated above 70 was lower than 60%. But why not re-read them and the links before you respond.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ... I don't think Ford had a choice with the"flip-floppings" given the continuous "waves" that were happening in Ontario. [I can't say the same for the "Education Minister" S. Leccee (sic). That's a REAL FLIP-FLOPPER, so INDECISIVE. I wonder how he even managed to get the job.]
> 
> As for the "restrictions", they were there for a purpose (not as if the authorities enjoy imposing them) which I didn't consider them as "harsh" as exaggerated by some (particularly the "freedom fighters for thyself"). Inconvenienced, yes.
> 
> My concern currently, as an Ontarian, is the lifting of the mask - particularly in high risk settings. The province's "top" full-time political/part-time medical doctor announced the mask mandate will be removed from all public settings except LTCs and hospitals I believe. This means no masking required in "schools" comes March 18(?) and now the TDSB (Toronto District School Board) is in disagreement with that.
> 
> Anyhow, I follow Dr. I. Bogoch, UHN Infectious Disease doctor's opinion more than any of the "experts" combined. And he stated it's abit too early to be lifting the mask.
> 
> We shall see how the top doc's experiment goes. If the numbers climb up, I'm gonna to suggest to Ford that his "top" medical advisor (above) go take a permanent vacation - somewhere.


We just got a note from the school saying masks are mandatory for 2 weeks if you travel outside Canada. Cause, you know, there’s no COVID here in Canada. Seems silly. 

I’m against must border testing too at this point, what exactly are we trying to keep out? If there is a new variant, so we really think we’re Gonna keep it out of Canada? COVID is so pervasive at this point.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> We just got a note from the school saying masks are mandatory for 2 weeks if you travel outside Canada. Cause, you know, there’s no COVID here in Canada. Seems silly.


 ... what??? Why're schools concerned with masks outside of Canada when the concern is in-country. Looks like Ford has "lectured" the school boards based on the latest headline 1:57PM EST March 11, 2022:

'They aren't medical experts:' Premier Ford warns boards not to maintain mask mandate in schools

At the same time, I have Ford's quote that the government is leaving it to each individuals to mask up or not where the mandate has been removed. So now each person can decide for him/herself on what risk they're willing to take.



> I’m against must border testing too at this point, what exactly are we trying to keep out? If there is a new variant, so we really think we’re Gonna keep it out of Canada? COVID is so pervasive at this point.


 ... I don't know what the travel requirements are as haven't kept up with them. Besides, they change by the day, if not hours. I think the airline industry is pushing the government to remove all requirements so just be patient.


----------



## TomB16

OptsyEagle said:


> A lot of scientific evidence and public disclosure of results, side effects, adverse events. Everything that you keep saying they are hiding. That was my point.


That's odd. Perhaps they have revised that info?

Or, it does occur to me a possibility that you have no familiarity but continue to run your keyboard. You would not be the first person to myopically entrench themselves in a position without having any real data. I apologize in advance if this turns out to not be the case but you have been ankle biting your way through an argument without providing a single statistic while I have cited several credible sources.

*FDA approval memorandum.*









FDA Approves First COVID-19 Vaccine


FDA approved the first COVID-19 vaccine, now marketed as Comirnaty, for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older.




www.fda.gov





If you click on the link to "safety and effectiveness data", it takes you here.









FDA Takes Key Action in Fight Against COVID-19 By Issuing Emergency Use Authorization for First COVID-19 Vaccine


Today, the FDA issued the first EUA for a vaccine for the prevention of COVID-19 caused by SARS-CoV-2 in individuals 16 years of age and older.




www.fda.gov





*Here is the analysis of the available safety data.*

"*FDA Evaluation of Available Safety Data*

Pfizer BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is administered as a series of two doses, three weeks apart. The available safety data to support the EUA include 37,586 of the participants enrolled in an ongoing randomized, placebo-controlled international study, the majority of whom are U.S. participants. These participants, 18,801 of whom received the vaccine and 18,785 of whom received saline placebo, were followed for a median of two months after receiving the second dose. The most commonly reported side effects, which typically lasted several days, were pain at the injection site, tiredness, headache, muscle pain, chills, joint pain, and fever. Of note, more people experienced these side effects after the second dose than after the first dose, so it is important for vaccination providers and recipients to expect that there may be some side effects after either dose, but even more so after the second dose.

It is mandatory for Pfizer Inc. and vaccination providers to report the following to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) for Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine: all vaccine administration errors, serious adverse events, cases of Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome (MIS), and cases of COVID-19 that result in hospitalization or death."

Does this look like, "A lot of scientific evidence and public disclosure of results, side effects, adverse events." to you?

What about the death rate? That seems to be safety related. We were able to learn that 1223 people died in a three month period but only by court directed disclosure. Let's have a look at vaccine death rates. As a vaccine recipient, death rate is relevant to me. They specifically state they will collect that info. Why not disclose it?

Here is a link to Pfizer's "landmark trial"





__





About Our Landmark Trial | Pfizer


The Phase 3 clinical trial was designed to determine if the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine is safe and effective in preventing COVID-19 disease. This trial began July 27, 2020 and completed enrollment of 46,331 participants in January 2021. On November 18, Pfizer and BioNTech announced that...




www.pfizer.com





This page has a lot of links.

Here is the study protocol.



https://cdn.pfizer.com/pfizercom/2020-11/C4591001_Clinical_Protocol_Nov2020.pdf




Herre is the "Data & Results" page on Pfizer's web site.





__





Data & Results | Pfizer







www.pfizer.com






I will provide a synopsis.

"We don't publish this data openly but we have a DUA (data use agreement) you can sign which will provide limited access to the information we wish to share but we specifically do not have a peer review process which would make this study scientific in nature." - TomB16


Meanwhile, at the CDC, their published "studies" are so obfuscated with jargon, they are not intelligible to me. I am not a physician but I do understand statistics. The only legitimate reason I can think of for them to write their studies to be so incomprehensible is incompetence.


So, OptsyEagle, please help me find published data from the FDA or Pfizer. What is it that you read that has "A lot of scientific evidence and public disclosure of results, side effects, adverse events."?

Just saying data is there does not make it so.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> We just got a note from the school saying masks are mandatory for 2 weeks if you travel outside Canada. Cause, you know, there’s no COVID here in Canada. Seems silly.


Covid circulates in society, but the level of community spread will vary a lot. This isn't a black and white thing of "the virus is here", but rather, how much virus is circulating. Currently it's stable at a pretty low level (as indicated by waste water samples) but the amount of covid is expected to grow.

A family trip is a high risk for covid. There are many contact points where they can pick it up while traveling around, and once it gets into a household, it spreads within the house. This is why a family that's been travelling for March break becomes a high covid risk.

So yes it absolutely makes sense to put a mask on kids for 2 weeks after March break. I think they should require masks for anyone who's even travelled domestically.

Smarter thing would be for all kids to wear masks at school. It's one of the few defenses they have left. Or I suppose you can let the kids pass covid around and play the lottery of whose parents are gonna die, when the covid gets into your household, where it will infect everyone (vaccinated or not).


----------



## TomB16

I know that _some_ data has been published but it is very limited. We know that Pfizer and the CDC have great masses of data from publicly funded studies of their vaccines.

The points I have made are:

1) The data has been published selectively. I don't know if this is a cover up of corruption. What I do know is that it is not science since it is neither open nor peer reviewed.

2) These medications were publicly funded and yet the public is not open to scrutinize the results. How come we have to learn of the Pfizer caused deaths by court order? That is a form of corruption in itself.

3) The extreme right are clearly nut-jobs and it breaks my heart that they are right, with regard to the lack of transparency on this global health issue. I don't stand with them, because they all have COVID and refuse to wear masks, but they are not as wrong as left and centrists, like myself, seem to generally believe.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> That regional health approach was a disaster. People in Ontario was confused about what the rules were. And the rules kept changing, constantly.


I think the regional approach was a good idea.
No reason to lock down areas with no cases, while other areas are overwhelmed.

The "changing" was to appease those who wanted them to adapt to the new circumstances.



> Ford f**ed up big time. I can tell that even you didn't enjoy the "lock downs". Not every province had such harsh restrictions, and not every province confused the hell out of residents.


I didn't like them, but I think that they got a little overzealous, and public support for Omicron lockdowns wasn't there.



> You couldn't have possibly enjoyed Ford's constant flip-flopping policies. One moment everything is open, the next moment everything is shut down. But only in the GTA, or is it, only outside the GTA. C'mon man, that was a **** show.


The lockdowns were harsh where they had lots of cases, and they were light where they had few cases.



> Where I live, there were no lockdowns.


Where exactly is that? Portland still?



> I can barely understand what people in Ontario are talking about with these restrictions... for two years, I've been mostly unrestricted, doing just about everything I want.


Yeah, that's why many people went to Ottawa to protest their restrictions, remember Ontario is dropping ours fully now, but the feds haven't even laid out their plan.

So for the whataboutism, you can complain that Ontario is too harsh, but the Feds still have theirs in place.



> Stores have always been open. And the public policy in my province has been consistent over time, not flip flopping.


Really? For 2 years your province has had the exact same policies? 
That seems crazy, since the situation hasn't been the same throughout this whole period.

I know that Ontario, Quebec, Manitoba, Alberta and BC all closed or limited non-essential businesses, what province do you live in again?


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> From what I recall, Ontario has the lowest number of hospital beds per capita.


One of the lowest.
However I think Ontario was one of the few provinces taking overflow from other provinces.


----------



## OptsyEagle

TomB16 said:


> So, OptsyEagle, please help me find published data from the FDA or Pfizer. What is it that you read that has "A lot of scientific evidence and public disclosure of results, side effects, adverse events."?
> 
> Just saying data is there does not make it so.


You just said that you took a look at the 92 page trial study that Pfizer published on the efficacy and safety data pertaining to their vaccine. It is published data. Not sure what your problem is now. Are you saying you don't believe what is in the document?



https://www.fda.gov/media/144246/download


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> One of the lowest.
> However I think Ontario was one of the few provinces taking overflow from other provinces.


My problem with Ontario's response was that the rules kept changing and varied tremendously by region. They were also, repeatedly, late at bringing in restrictions when new exponential spread was happening.

This forced them to bring in harsher measures when they got into those new waves. And the inconsistency of rules across the province caused confusion and stress among people. One of the reason there's been such a public backlash, is the frustration of these policy details.

People have an easier time dealing with consistent, steady policies. They know what the rules are and learn to live with them. Ontario just made it difficult for people to handle the pandemic restrictions... that's the failure of the Ford government.

People and businesses *cannot* handle new rules popping up on a weekly basis, or Public Health measures changing multiple times. This causes confusion and stress.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Ford f**ed up big time. I can tell that even you didn't enjoy the "lock downs".


No I didn't "enjoy" the lockdowns, however when they were needed I supported them, and when they were no longer justified I didn't support them.
Just like vaccine passports, mandates, masking etc.
I supported travel bans when they were appropriate, and I stopped supporting them when they weren't.

I supported continued use of AZ when its risk was lower than the risk of COVID19.

Sometimes I was onside with the various governments, sometimes I was offside.
Some would say this is flip flopping, I prefer to consider it a response to the changing data and situation.

I have a question for you, when COVID looked like a 3% fatality rate, with no effective treatments, were you in support of the lock downs or not?
Now that COVID19 looks like a fatality rate of far less than 0.1% are you in support of lock downs or not?

The situation has not remained static, it has oscillated from okay to dire several times, of course the "correct" actions are different in different situations.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> My problem with Ontario's response was that the rules kept changing and varied tremendously by region. They were also, repeatedly, late at bringing in restrictions when new exponential spread was happening.


Because the situation kept changing, and the situation varied tremendously by region.



> This forced them to bring in harsher measures when they got into those new waves. And the inconsistency of rules across the province caused confusion and stress among people. One of the reason there's been such a public backlash, is the frustration of these policy details.


I don't know a single person who was confused.
Most of the public backlash is that they're simply tired of the restrictions that don't seem appropriate to the low level of risk we have had for the past few months.



> People have an easier time dealing with consistent, steady policies. They know what the rules are and learn to live with them. Ontario just made it difficult for people to handle the pandemic restrictions... that's the failure of the Ford government.


Not one jurisdiction in Canada had a single set of policies throughout the pandemic, every jurisdiction varied them based on the situation at the time.

Interesting that you didn't name the jurisdiction you claim had stable policies throughout this.
BC for example tightened restrictions several times right before Christmas, it was like a moving target from what I hear.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> I have a question for you, when COVID looked like a 3% fatality rate, with no effective treatments, were you in support of the lock downs or not?
> Now that COVID19 looks like a fatality rate of far less than 0.1% are you in support of lock downs or not?


I live in BC and the restrictions were pretty consistent. They did tighten things a bit in December. But generally over these years, there hasn't been any "locking down" and I've left the house virtually every day, in fact, gone into stores (groceries and essentials) every day of the pandemic, more or less.

You're being so dramatic. Nobody is advocating for lock downs. What I like are ongoing precautionary measures that prevent covid from spreading like wildfire. If you use the precautions, then you don't have to get to the point where you need to shut everything down.

What I'm advocating for are continued use of mandatory masks and capacity limits, to limit the spread of the disease. Additionally the fatality rate was never really the problem. This has always been a problem of hospital capacity limits, and the point at which there's so much covid that it interferes with hospitals providing essential services we all need.

As Ontario relaxes all these rules, covid will spread more in society. There will be waves of it. If one of the waves lands a lot of people in hospital (likely to happen after October) then the hospitals will get overwhelmed again.

If the hospitals get overloaded, then restrictions will come back. You know this perfectly well.


----------



## james4beach

Think of it this way. There's a choice.

(1) Maintain ongoing cautions and safeguards, like masks in public, plus limit the capacity and density of gatherings. This keeps a lid on how much covid circulates in the community.

(2) Make it a "free-for-all" which changes public behaviour. There will be waves. Eventually, one of those waves will get bad enough that Public Health will have to enforce restrictions again to put a lid on the spread. So after everyone has been "free" to do everything they want, suddenly they will be forced again to wear masks, or STOP see their friends & family.


It's shocking to me that anyone would think (2) is actually better. Don't you remember that Ontario repeatedly tried this, as little as 6-12 months ago, and people hated it?


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I live in BC and the restrictions were pretty consistent. They did tighten things a bit in December. But generally over these years, there hasn't been any "locking down" and I've left the house virtually every day, in fact, gone into stores (groceries and essentials) every day of the pandemic, more or less.


Other than the initial first wave we didn't really have any lockdowns either.

We did have restrictions on dining and gatherings, like BC.



> You're being so dramatic. Nobody is advocating for lock downs. What I like are ongoing precautionary measures that prevent covid from spreading like wildfire. If you use the precautions, then you don't have to get to the point where you need to shut everything down.


I'm not sure what I'm being dramatic about, you didn't actually cite anything.



> What I'm advocating for are continued use of mandatory masks and capacity limits, to limit the spread of the disease. Additionally the fatality rate was never really the problem. This has always been a problem of hospital capacity limits, and the point at which there's so much covid that it interferes with hospitals providing essential services we all need.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree, the potential 3% fatality rate was absolutely a HUGE problem.
> 
> You can advocate for masking, and I think it should remain as well, but both BC and Ontario are going down this path.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As Ontario relaxes all these rules, covid will spread more in society.
> 
> 
> 
> We'll see, with BC relaxing their restrictions first, we can see what the fallout is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the hospitals get overloaded, then restrictions will come back. You know this perfectly well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, and in that case they should come back, remember I was suggesting that they should have had stronger restrictions with the Omicron wave, fortunately it wasn't that bad.
> 
> My view all along has been a bit earlier or aggressive than the government at almost every turn.
> I wanted masks when Tam was saying we didn't need them.
> I wanted them to continue to provide AZ when the anti-vaxxers pulled it.
> I wanted harsher restrictions during Xmas 2021, but admit that they would have had very little public support.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Think of it this way. There's a choice.
> 
> (1) Maintain ongoing cautions and safeguards, like masks in public, plus limit the capacity and density of gatherings. This keeps a lid on how much covid circulates in the community.
> 
> (2) Make it a "free-for-all" which changes public behaviour. There will be waves. Eventually, one of those waves will get bad enough that Public Health will have to enforce restrictions again to put a lid on the spread. So after everyone has been "free" to do everything they want, suddenly they will be forced again to wear masks, or STOP see their friends & family.
> 
> 
> It's shocking to me that anyone would think (2) is actually better. Don't you remember that Ontario repeatedly tried this, as little as 6-12 months ago, and people hated it?


Both Ontario and BC on the "free for all" path.
Ontario is doing it out of political necessity for the upcoming election. Why is BC doing it?


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Both Ontario and BC on the "free for all" path.
> Ontario is doing it out of political necessity for the upcoming election. Why is BC doing it?


I don't fully understand BC's logic, but I watched the full press conference. Bonnie Henry did say that she thinks the hospitals are OK for the upcoming *spring and summer*.

That's the scope of this decision. Spring & summer.

She said it's still a dynamic situation and that things can change in respiratory cold season (fall and winter). The measures may be reevaluated then. So to me, it sounded pretty clear that BC is only saying that things look fine for the immediate next few months, but we may have to bring back restrictions in the fall. We'll also have the issue of waning immunity to vaccines by then.

What concerns me is, how compliant will the public be when the restrictions come back in the winter? Does the public understand that Public Health is only saying "things look OK for a few months", or is the public mistakenly interpreting it as, "this is the end of covid restrictions"?


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I don't fully understand BC's logic, but I watched the full press conference. Bonnie Henry did say that she thinks the hospitals are OK for the upcoming *spring and summer*.
> 
> That's the scope of this decision. Spring & summer.
> 
> She said it's still a dynamic situation and that things can change in respiratory cold season (fall and winter). The measures may be reevaluated then. So to me, it sounded pretty clear that BC is only saying that things look fine for the immediate next few months, but we may have to bring back restrictions in the fall. We'll also have the issue of waning immunity to vaccines by then.
> 
> What concerns me is, how compliant will the public be when the restrictions come back in the winter? Does the public understand that Public Health is only saying "things look OK for a few months", or is the public mistakenly interpreting it as, "this is the end of covid restrictions"?


They think it means over forever, because they 
1. Want it over. They're tired of it.
2. Did what they were told.
3. COVID strains today aren't nearly as bad as they were.

Remember the government saying "get vaccinated so we can all get back to normal", which was a stupid promise to make, and NEVER supported by the science.


I don't think there will be public support for restrictions, unless a far more lethal strain shows up.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> They think it means over forever, because they
> 1. Want it over. They're tired of it.
> 2. Did what they were told.
> 3. COVID strains today aren't nearly as bad as they were.


Exactly, the public thinks it's over. And that's why I'm saying this Public Health policy approach is wrong... because it encourages the public to think it's over and they are safe.

This path can get us into a lot of trouble in a lot of scenarios, e.g. vaccine immunity wanes, or a new variant appears

It would be a safer route to maintain precautions until we are more confident that we're out of the woods. Or at least, the officials need to be more clear that *we are taking a gamble here*. People should realize, we could get unlucky (new variants) and we MIGHT have to restrict things again.

The public doesn't understand we're gambling. I'd like the government officials to be more clear about this: we HOPE this is the end, and things look OK today, but we might get unlucky and we might have to bring back all restrictions.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Exactly, the public thinks it's over. And that's why I'm saying this Public Health policy approach is wrong... because it encourages the public to think it's over and they are safe.


I agree, lying to the people was the wrong strategy from the beginning.
Ignoring the science, saying one thing while doing another, it was pretty much a comedy of errors. That being said, Canada arguably did among the "best" among first worth western countries. 

I think we're about as out of the woods as we ever going to be.

We have a serious outbreak/pandemic every 10 years, and a major one every 100 years. This one is pretty much over.

With the falling hospitalization rates, I think that COVID19 as we knew it is gone.


----------



## james4beach

Let's look on the bright side here. Everyone reading this is still alive... that's a huge success.

About 1 million people died in the US and 37,000 died in Canada. These numbers may be under-reports, because someone like my friend's dad who very likely died of covid isn't recorded.

I still think it's best to err on the side of caution at the moment. Some extremely simple, non-invasive measures can help reduce the chances of getting sick. Wearing a mask among strangers, and also not going out and mixing with people when you have symptoms. Heck, if we can just learn to do these things, we'll also reduce flu deaths going forward.



MrMatt said:


> With the falling hospitalization rates, I think that COVID19 as we knew it is gone.


That's quite a leap to make. The omicron threat is gone for now, but we have no idea how new variants might hit us. And immunity against omicron doesn't appear to be very durable, from early indications. It's very possible that with waning immunities (roughly by Sept) that we could see another significant omicron wave. Let alone the possibility of a different mutation.

You're jumping to conclusions Matt. Just like @OptsyEagle you clearly _want_ this to be done, but we don't know if the virus is done with us yet.

We can be more confident that this disaster is done once we go through another wave, and see the wave have minimal effect on hospitals. *We haven't gone through a mild wave yet*. This last wave kicked the sh*t out of us and killed a record number of people. That wasn't a mild wave.

Once we get through a mild wave (meaning hospitals don't get overloaded and we don't see high death rates) then we can be more confident it's done.


----------



## s1231

I see more countries facing similar issues like NZ.
Long term adverse events (over one month) are becoming visible there.









Relationship Between Covid-19 Vaccination and All Cause Mortality - Hatchard Report


Relationship between vaccination and all cause mortality for the 60+ cohort in New Zealand.




hatchardreport.com




By Guy Hatchard, December 17, 2021

This has only been possible because of our unique situation in NZ.
Protected at our borders, we have a very low incidence of Covid and therefore the short-term impact of vaccination on health can be reviewed in isolation from the confounding factors of Covid infections and deaths.

This has been a painful release to write because it involves personal tragedies affecting families and loved ones.
Adverse effects reported to CARM are running at 30 times that of flu vaccines. It is also apparent that many of the adverse effects are very serious indeed.

On the 28th October I wrote to Dr. Ashley Bloomfield pointing to the unusually high level of adverse effects and requesting that reporting of adverse effects should be mandatory rather than voluntary.
Yesterday, December 17th, I received a tardy reply from Astrid Koorneef, Director of the National Immunisation programme writing on behalf of Dr Ashley Bloomfield..........

There is an obvious need to investigate vaccine safety here in NZ because overseas trials are as yet incomplete—the long term effects of mRNA vaccines are unknown and the short term effects are incompletely assessed.









*The Data Released Under OIA*
Grant Dixon obtained figures from Medsafe through an OIA request graphed here:

The temporal association between all cause deaths and vaccination for the 60+ age cohort during the roll out of the mRNA vaccine in NZ between the beginning of March 2021 to the end of October 2021 is graphically rather obvious even to a lay person.

As weekly vaccination numbers rise to a peak, deaths peak.
As vaccination numbers begin to fall, deaths also fall.

The number of excess deaths in the weeks following vaccination is consistent with reports of 670 suspicious deaths proximate to vaccination submitted voluntarily to NZDSOS and NZ Health Forum and could actually be larger.

Further investigation requires a comparison between adverse effect rates and normal incidence of disease by category and also an examination of the potential mechanisms for disease creation in so far as they are known.

.......A letter sent by Dr. Ashley Bloomfield and Dr. Andrew Connolly to DHB organisers dated December 15th 2021 pressed the emergency button concerning incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis and also admitting underreporting.

https://www.rnzcgp.org.nz/gpdocs/new-website/membership/covid19/vaccine-associated-myocarditis-and-pericarditis_MOH 151221.pdf

What is important here is that the MoH has known about the risk of such cardiac illness since early in the year, but it took ten long months before they wrote to DHBs to alert them that the risk was serious enough for them to organise a concerted response.

The Medsafe mRNA vaccine fact sheet mentions only 21 side effects, all except three of which are mild.
This has resulted in a high percentage of vaccine injury cases going unreported and the injured themselves being told by GPs and hospital staff they are suffering from anxiety or imagination or new unrelated conditions.

There was no acknowledgement of vaccine harm. Comparing the two letters:
one sent to me and one to DHB heads on the same date, the intent is clear—try to dampen public disquiet with misleading messaging while privately giving way to something close to an emergency.


*** Dr. Guy Hatchard is an international advocate of food safety and natural medicine. He received his undergraduate degree in Logic and Theoretical Physics from the University of Sussex and his PhD in Psychology from Maharishi University of Management, Fairfield Iowa.

He was formerly a senior manager at Genetic ID, a global food safety testing and certification laboratory. His published work uses the statistical methods of the physical sciences to analyse social data. He has lectured and advised governments in countries around the world on health and education initiatives.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> Let's look on the bright side here. Everyone reading this is still alive... that's a huge success.
> 
> About 1 million people died in the US and 37,000 died in Canada. These numbers may be under-reports, because someone like my friend's dad who very likely died of covid isn't recorded.
> 
> I still think it's best to err on the side of caution at the moment. Some extremely simple, non-invasive measures can help reduce the chances of getting sick. Wearing a mask among strangers, and also not going out and mixing with people when you have symptoms. Heck, if we can just learn to do these things, we'll also reduce flu deaths going forward.
> 
> 
> 
> That's quite a leap to make. The omicron threat is gone for now, but we have no idea how new variants might hit us. And immunity against omicron doesn't appear to be very durable, from early indications. It's very possible that with waning immunities (roughly by Sept) that we could see another significant omicron wave. Let alone the possibility of a different mutation.
> 
> You're jumping to conclusions Matt. Just like @OptsyEagle you clearly _want_ this to be done, but we don't know if the virus is done with us yet.
> 
> We can be more confident that this disaster is done once we go through another wave, and see the wave have minimal effect on hospitals. *We haven't gone through a mild wave yet*. This last wave kicked the sh*t out of us and killed a record number of people. That wasn't a mild wave.
> 
> Once we get through a mild wave (meaning hospitals don't get overloaded and we don't see high death rates) then we can be more confident it's done.



It's quite the opposite actually.
It is done, and you are the one who WANTS IT to continue.

Yeah, a new strain, new variants, new virus altogether - they can all come along. There will be new pandemics, epidemics, etc. So what? Does it mean we suspend our lives and never get back to normal?
This one is done. We will react again if new one comes along. Until then, life gets back to normal.

Only federal government in Canada is stubborn in its ways and still didn't even come up with a plan. They need another protest to light their asses on fire


----------



## james4beach

s1231 said:


> I see more countries facing similar issues like NZ.


No, you're posting junky stuff from a conspiracy theory nut. This guy is a "natural health" doc, something like a naturopath.

It's not a reliable source. I really hope that's not how you get your information about vaccines.


----------



## sags

A new variant is confirmed and adds to the list of slightly different "Deltacron" variants.

This variant has been identified in several countries including the US.

Not much is known yet about the variant and a lot of research is being done on it.









Variant that combines Delta and Omicron identified; dogs sniff out virus with high accuracy


The following is a summary of some recent studies on COVID-19. They include research that warrants further study to corroborate the findings and that has yet to be certified by peer review.




www.reuters.com


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> *Other than the initial first wave we didn't really have any lockdowns either.*
> 
> We did have restrictions on dining and gatherings, like BC.
> 
> 
> *I'm not sure what I'm being dramatic about,* you didn't actually cite anything.


 ,,, but but but in an earlier post, you were crying about the "lockdowns" we were having in Ontario. Eg. one couldn't even go outside to roller-blade, by golly.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> It's quite the opposite actually.
> It is done, and *you are the one who WANTS IT to continue.*
> 
> Yeah, a new strain, new variants, new virus altogether - they can all come along. There will be new pandemics, epidemics, etc. So what? Does it mean we suspend our lives and never get back to normal?
> This one is done. We will react again if new one comes along. *Until then, life gets back to normal.*
> 
> Only federal government in Canada is stubborn in its ways and still didn't even come up with a plan. *They need another protest to light their asses on fire*


 ... have you heard of a "declaration that the pandemic is over"? Pick any country. 

And what's life back to normal? Another protest to light the Feds' *** on fire - seems like that's what *you want.*

Btw, those hil-billies sh1t-disturbers merely got a whiff of what's next for them ... jail-time! Fed's present for them.


----------



## zinfit

bgc_fan said:


> Here's the fact check:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Articles inaccurately claim document reveals Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine deaths
> 
> 
> Online articles shared on social media claim a document released by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) revealed more than 1,200 deaths related to Pfizer-BioNTech's Covid-19 vaccine in a 90-day period. But the pharmaceutical giant says the document does not indicate the fatalities are...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> factcheck.afp.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To start, the phase 3 clinical trial started in July 2020:
> The Phase 3 clinical trial of BNT162b2 began on July 27 and has enrolled 43,661 participants to date, 41,135 of whom have received a second dose of the vaccine candidate as of November 13, 2020.
> 
> So that bit about timing is pretty off, meaning can't really take it seriously when we're talking about deaths between Dec 2020 and Feb 2021 and saying that it was during the 3 months of trial.
> 
> It's also worth noting that your numbers are off if you are talking about the trial as you are saying that almost 4 times the people are reporting events than were actually in the trial.
> 
> The 1,223 "vaccine related" deaths were health authorities around the world reporting them, but there were no verification that they were actually vaccine related. Just like the VAERS system that anti-vaxxers like to use as proof. You can put anything into it, but until it's verified information, you take it with a grain of salt. For example, one person reported that a vaccine turned him into the Incredible Hulk in 2004 to make the point that it was not the greatest reporting system. Some self-reported CDC data fueling the anti-vaccination movement. In order to remove it, they required his permission to do so.


 Public health agencies tracks all negative outcomes regardless of whether they are connected to the vaccine. In one case a lady died by being struck by lightening. I have been looking at the Alberta data . Last I looked they had four deaths and I think they were blood clotting issues tied to the Astrasenca vaccine. On the big picture about 3200 unvaccinated died from covid. There are a large number of unvaccinated who survived their hospital stay and have long term covid effects. Based on Alberta's real time experience I accept mRNA as a safe and effective medication.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> A new variant is confirmed and adds to the list of slightly different "Deltacron" variants.
> 
> This variant has been identified in several countries including the US.
> 
> Not much is known yet about the variant and a lot of research is being done on it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Variant that combines Delta and Omicron identified; dogs sniff out virus with high accuracy
> 
> 
> The following is a summary of some recent studies on COVID-19. They include research that warrants further study to corroborate the findings and that has yet to be certified by peer review.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


 ... I hope people are not thinking these variants are coming out from those Transformers' movie - the names are sure sounding like them.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> No, you're posting junky stuff from a conspiracy theory nut. This guy is a "natural health" doc, something like a naturopath.
> 
> It's not a reliable source. I really hope that's not how you get your information about vaccines.


 ... and who reads a post that's more than half a page long, never mind it's a copy and paste? No thanks.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Obviously if you give a drug to many billions of people and cannot find any overwhelmingly conclusive problems with it, it can certainly be put on the list of fairly benign drugs. My best evidence of this is that I took a couple shots of it and I feel absolutely fine. 

I find there are two groups of people that seem to want these vaccines to fail. The first obvious group are the unvaccinated, but what surprises me is how many vaccinated people are in that camp as well. What's interesting with them is that they appear to want the vaccines to fail, although they usually describe their position as wanting to know the truth about the drug they have "already taken". A little late I would think for that quest, so that is probably not it. When one gets into discussions with them it becomes apparent that it is not the truth they actually want. What they want to prove is that their government has lied to them. What is interesting about this group of people, is that it is actually a larger group then the unvaccinated. Or, at least I can say, it is a much louder group.

Anyway, I am always happy to hear about any developments or new information pertaining to the safety and efficacy of the vaccines, but I don't really want to spend much time on whether the government is lying or telling the truth. I usually don't rely on other people's truth anyway, so it rarely matters to me. I don't have this mindset because I worry that they are lying to me. I do it because I worry that they are human beings who are probably biased, and more importantly, might get some things wrong. In either of those cases I don't condemn a person for it. That is just a side effect of being human.


----------



## TomB16

OptsyEagle said:


> Anyway, I am always happy to hear about any developments or new information pertaining to the safety and efficacy of the vaccines, but I don't really want to spend much time on whether the government is lying or telling the truth.


It sucks this was politicized but it became so the moment the government stepped in with a bunch of restrictions and punitive measures that are only explainable if they were trying to force people to get vaccinated. It also doesn't help that vaccine death rates and incidence of side effects were not provided to people receiving the vaccine. In fact, these rates don't exist in relevant form. My wife is an RN, worked a ton of vaccine clinics, and was shocked to learn of the 1223 deaths already very early in the vaccine roll-out. I am confident a lot of people would not have taken the vaccine, had they known, so perhaps this is why the information is difficult to access.

As I have said before, I would have been OK with a decision of universal, forced, vaccinations to achieve herd immunity _if the situation had warranted it_. Certainly, I don't advocate that and I wouldn't like it but we could have an event in the future in which everyone will need to get vaccinated to save the entire population. I'm glad this wasn't one of those times because it will trigger a civil war.

Meanwhile, the Ivermectin study I cited yesterday was "retracted" yesterday, not long after I cited it. This is odd, as it had been published for something like six weeks. There are tons of Ivermectin studies showing positive results but the others I've read have been very, very small.

There is a study underway to investigate Ivermectin as an anti-viral that is partially based on the Itajai study. I wonder if this derivative will continue.


----------



## HappilyRetired

zinfit said:


> Public health agencies tracks all negative outcomes regardless of whether they are connected to the vaccine.


Tracking them and accurately reporting them are two different things. We'll probably never know exactly how many people with Covid died from something else but are counted as Covid fatalities.


----------



## TomB16

I'm glad I had a booster of Pfizer at the very end of December and Omicron at the end of January. Omicron was no big deal at all. It was a matter of occasional dry cough, sore throat, and fatigue for a few days. I could have pretended I was OK and doubt anyone would have noticed. Actually, that's about how it went. We just hung out in a hotel room and had food delivered for 10 days.

We had the initial Wuhan strain in January 2020. This is before the public health folks claim it came to North America. It was no joke. The symptoms were extremely severe, went on for weeks, and went away very slowly. I can easily see that it could kill someone. Of course, there was no vaccine at that time so I speculate that factors into the deep impact, as well.

Speaking of COVID strategies, how is it a good idea to take a vaccine booster that appears to have about two months of efficacy and then try to avoid infection? Wouldn't it make more sense to take the vaccine and then expose yourself to the virus, a few weeks later, when the vaccine is at it's peak efficacy?


----------



## HappilyRetired

Will we ever find out how many fatalities have been falsely attributed to Covid? This isn't an isolated case. Will anyone be held accountable for the fraud?

"From March 2020 to March 2021, DPH counted the death of any person who had previously tested positive for COVID-19 as a COVID-related death, regardless of how much time elapsed between those two events.

Even if someone contracted the virus in March and died in a car crash in July, they were added to the ongoing tally of pandemic deaths for that first year."

Massachusetts COVID Deaths: DPH Reports ‘Significant Overcount’ – NBC Boston


----------



## TomB16

OptsyEagle said:


> Obviously if you give a drug to many billions of people and cannot find any overwhelmingly conclusive problems with it, it can certainly be put on the list of fairly benign drugs. My best evidence of this is that I took a couple shots of it and I feel absolutely fine.


While true, billions of people had not been given the vaccine in February 2021.

If I am going to take an injection, I'd like to be appraised of the risks and statistics associated with it. I would like to believe it was evaluated in an open, peer reviewed, process. I do not blindly trust, unless there is no alternative.

I'm also aware that if you asked 2M people to drink a glass of water, there would be a ton of issues and some deaths. If you asked a million people to line up, single file, there would be an unexpected death or two.

Non disclosure of risks is an ethical violation.


----------



## OptsyEagle

TomB16 said:


> *If I am going to take an injection, I'd like to be appraised of the risks and statistics associated with it.* I would like to believe it was evaluated in an open, peer reviewed, process. I do not blindly trust, unless there is no alternative.


Then why didn't you read the vaccine trial study reports BEFORE you took the vaccine. They had all the safety data and efficacy data pertaining to them and they were published for everyone to read in December of 2020. I read them many times, as well as reviewed tons of data that was available, before I let anyone inject me with a new drug. That is what a person does if they want to know how safe a drug, that they are contemplating taking, is. You say you are trying to find the truth but I don't think you have read those reports even now, after I have posted them twice. That can only mean you must be looking for something else.

Since someone's actions tell me more about their position then their words, I have to assume that you are looking to find fault in someone, more then whether a vaccine that you took 3 times already, is safe or not.


----------



## TomB16

OptsyEagle said:


> Then why didn't you read the vaccine trial study reports BEFORE you took the vaccine.


It turns out, your hypothesis that I did not read vaccine trial publications prior to taking the vaccine is incorrect, so there is no need to read the rest of your myopic bashing.



OptsyEagle said:


> They had all the safety data and efficacy data pertaining to them and they were published for everyone to read in December of 2020.


They published something but it was incomplete, to say the least. Still is.

If you are able to cite a death rate for the vaccine, I will continue to exchange with you. Not the number of deaths, which was revealed by court order, but the death rate (deaths / # of people given the vaccine) Otherwise, I will leave you to put your hands over your head and hum.

Surely the death rate is a key piece of safety data? I am not a physician but I think I'm on solid ground thinking death avoidance is part of safety. We certainly know this information is being collected.


----------



## Spudd

TomB16 said:


> If you are able to cite a death rate for the vaccine, I will continue to exchange with you. Not the number of deaths, which was revealed by court order, but the death rate (deaths / # of people given the vaccine) Otherwise, I will leave you to put your hands over your head and hum.
> 
> Surely the death rate is a key piece of safety data? I am not a physician but I think I'm on solid ground thinking death avoidance is part of safety. We certainly know this information is being collected.


Here's Canada's stats on the deaths associated with the vaccine.





__





COVID-19 vaccine safety: Report on side effects following immunization - Canada.ca


Information about any adverse events following immunization (AEFI) that individuals have reported after receiving a COVID-19 vaccine in Canada. These adverse events are not necessarily related to the vaccine.




health-infobase.canada.ca






Up to and including March 4, 2022, a total of *306 reports with an outcome of death were reported* following vaccination. Although these deaths occurred after being vaccinated with a COVID-19 vaccine, they are not necessarily related to the vaccine. Based on the medical case review using the WHO-UMC causality assessment categories, it has been determined that:
162 reports of deaths could not be assessed due to insufficient information
99 reports of deaths are unlikely linked to a COVID-19 vaccine
45 reports of death are still under investigation

Out of over 81 million doses administered.


----------



## TomB16

Thank you, Spudd.

There are also death statistics available from Europe and Australia (probably others but I haven't looked into it).

Unfortunately, like all of these studies, that does not cite the number of people vaccinated. I might speculate an average of 2.1 doses per person, giving us about 38.5M people. The 2.1 number is based on gross speculation on my part.

A little long division later.....

death rate = 308 / 38,500,000 = 0.00000795%

This number, based on speculation by a non-physician, is not safety data but it is data-adjacent.


----------



## OptsyEagle

TomB16 said:


> If you are able to cite a death rate for the vaccine, I will continue to exchange with you.


Let's just not exchange. I think I have concluded you have nothing but suspicion to offer. I am suspicious enough so I will leave you to your quest. Good luck.


----------



## TomB16

OptsyEagle said:


> Let's just not exchange. I think I have concluded you have nothing but suspicion to offer. I am suspicious enough so I will leave you to your quest. Good luck.


Sure. I have concluded that you have nothing to offer at all, beyond "no it isn't".


----------



## TomB16

This is a somewhat interesting segment on GBNews featuring physicians discussing the Pfizer data.


----------



## TomB16

Let me prevent others from putting words in my mouth.

Here is my position:


vaccine compliant (I've taken 3 doses of Pfizer but don't wish to force anyone else to do so)
pro-mask (we should have always been masking on airplanes and in other confined spaces)
I still wear a mask today, despite it no longer being legally required

- I am a bit alarmed at the lack of data published by Pfizer (other companies also but Pfizer seems to be the worst), particularly given the public health nature of their product


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> Let's look on the bright side here. Everyone reading this is still alive... that's a huge success.
> 
> About 1 million people died in the US and 37,000 died in Canada. These numbers may be under-reports, because someone like my friend's dad who very likely died of covid isn't recorded.
> 
> I still think it's best to err on the side of caution at the moment. Some extremely simple, non-invasive measures can help reduce the chances of getting sick. Wearing a mask among strangers, and also not going out and mixing with people when you have symptoms. Heck, if we can just learn to do these things, we'll also reduce flu deaths going forward.
> 
> 
> 
> That's quite a leap to make. The omicron threat is gone for now, but we have no idea how new variants might hit us. And immunity against omicron doesn't appear to be very durable, from early indications. It's very possible that with waning immunities (roughly by Sept) that we could see another significant omicron wave. Let alone the possibility of a different mutation.
> 
> You're jumping to conclusions Matt. Just like @OptsyEagle you clearly _want_ this to be done, but we don't know if the virus is done with us yet.
> 
> We can be more confident that this disaster is done once we go through another wave, and see the wave have minimal effect on hospitals. *We haven't gone through a mild wave yet*. This last wave kicked the sh*t out of us and killed a record number of people. That wasn't a mild wave.
> 
> Once we get through a mild wave (meaning hospitals don't get overloaded and we don't see high death rates) then we can be more confident it's done.



It's quite the opposite actually.
It is done, and you are the one who WANTS IT to continue.

Yeah, a new strain, new variants, new virus altogether - they can all come along. There will be new pandemics, epidemics, etc. So what? Does it mean we suspend our lives and never get back to normal?
This one is done. We will react again if new one comes along. Until then, life gets back to normal.

Only federal government in Canada is stubborn in its ways and still didn't even come up with a plan. They need another protest to light their asses on fire


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> It's quite the opposite actually.
> It is done, and you are the one who WANTS IT to continue.
> 
> Yeah, a new strain, new variants, new virus altogether - they can all come along. There will be new pandemics, epidemics, etc. So what? Does it mean we suspend our lives and never get back to normal?
> This one is done. We will react again if new one comes along. Until then, life gets back to normal.
> 
> Only federal government in Canada is stubborn in its ways and still didn't even come up with a plan. They need another protest to light their asses on fire


 ... aren't you repeating yourself with the light the Fed's asses on fire? 

If the Fed don't have a plan, do you have one? Especially with "_We will* react again* if a new one comes along." _Duh.

Again, if you think life is back to "normal" (whatever that means to you), then declare the pandemic is over. Not hard, just open your mouth.


----------



## Beaver101

I'll be the first one on this forum to admit I never read the (any) vaccines trials, publication, safety, etc., and etc. PRIOR to taking the shots (3 infact). 

And I still have not read nor am interested in reading any of them, even at only 92 pages. I figured if our (all) politicians got the shots, then it'll be safe enough for me to get them. Yeah, I'm one of the sheeple.


----------



## OptsyEagle

If you or Tom had of read the vaccine trial reports you would at least know that the stuff the people talk about in the above video is simply incorrect. Pfizer did study people with co-morbidities, during their trials, not just the people "who didn't need the vaccine" as stated by those idiots in the above video. 16,059 people in the Pfizer study had an "at risk" condition which incorporated about 6 or 7 of the main co-morbidities associated with severe outcomes for Covid-19. Page 61 to be precise. About 8,000 of them were in the vaccine group and the other 8,000 were given the placebo. The efficacy of the vaccine is provided for their group.



https://www.fda.gov/media/144246/download



In there one can see all the adverse events. Table 8 on page 46 even talks about the deaths. There were 6 of them. 2 in the vaccine group and 4 in the placebo.

The video participants even went on to say that Pfizer was ordered to release the data by court order when in fact it was the FDA that was sued. The woman even mentioned how hard it is to read this data but she seems to think the FDA should be able to read and publish 500,000 pages sooner then 8 months. She also speculates that the bad stuff will "obviously" come later. She has no ability to know what will come now or later.

This is just all innuendo and speculation. Basically the poster of that video thinks that if he posts this kind of speculation enough times, what he is hoping to be the case, will become true. Why not just wait and post things that are proof of something.


----------



## HappilyRetired

The FDA managed to approved the vaccine in record time. But they had to be sued to provide the data that led to the decision.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Reply to post #1384: I didn't bother watching that (or any) video related to the vaccine for that matter since everyone touts they're an "expert" there.

Very simple decision can be made to take the vaccine or not. You want to catch Covid? No, then take the (provided) vaccine being the lesser of 2 evils.

Seriously, if our politicians took their vaccines as with those human guinea pigs (first human trials) are still standing, then it's safe enough for the rest of us sheeples. I ain't special nor an alien to counter the vaccine(s).


----------



## OptsyEagle

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Reply to post #1384: I didn't bother watching that (or any) video related to the vaccine for that matter since everyone touts they're an "expert" there.
> 
> Very simple decision can be made to take the vaccine or not. You want to catch Covid? No, then take the (provided) vaccine being the lesser of 2 evils.
> 
> Seriously, if our politicians took their vaccines as with those human guinea pigs (first human trials) are still standing, then it's safe enough for the rest of us sheeples. I ain't special nor an alien to counter the vaccine(s).


You are assuming that they read it, understood it and that no one made any mistakes along the way, AND that no political bias played into their reasons for taking the vaccine. Bias you don't have or need to pay a price for.

I am not so trusting. Also, I enjoy science, so for me it was quite interesting. If you have problems reading this type of stuff or just can't fathom it, your reasoning is probably the next best thing.


----------



## OptsyEagle

HappilyRetired said:


> The FDA managed to approved the vaccine in record time. But they had to be sued to provide the data that led to the decision.
> 
> View attachment 22927


The other misconception here is that the FDA had to be sued to release this data. That is also incorrect. They had full intention of releasing the data, they just wanted more time. Again, it is over 500,000 pages of very difficult to read information. 

If I asked you to read all that data very, very closely to make sure there was nothing proprietary in it. How long would you ask for to complete that job? The most important stuff you, I and they needed, is in the trial document I posted AND in the loads of information the FDA have already acquired on the subject of vaccines.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I am not trying to convince anyone that the vaccines are safe. I am watching for any new developments on this subject, like everyone else. For example, I didn't watch that video last posted above, just to tear it apart. I watched it because I thought maybe there might be something in it that would be definitive. It turned out there was nothing. The only thing good about it was that it was only 9 minutes.

As far as this FDA lawsuit is concerned all we know for sure, is that they were sued to release data that Pfizer submitted. The FDA gave their reasons for wanting more time and although I have no proof those are their only reasons, I also have no proof that they are not. We also know that 1,223 vaccinated people died but we do not know what exactly killed them. So that also tells us nothing.

It is the proof I want. Not the innuendos or speculations.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> You are assuming that they read it, understood it and that no one made any mistakes along the way, AND that no political bias played into their reasons for taking the vaccine. Bias you don't have or need to pay a price for.


 .. even there were "mistakes" made along the way, and there were political bias, then what, don't take the vaccine? You're talking about millions, if not billions of lives at stake.



> I am not so trusting. Also, I enjoy science, so for me it was quite interesting. If you have problems reading this type of stuff or just can't fathom it, your reasoning is probably the next best thing.


 ... no, I don't have problems with reading this stuff as Scientific American was/is one of my favourite reading material. Just not interested in reading pages and pages and pages of stats or whatever published that you have no control over. Time is precious.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> I am not trying to convince anyone that the vaccines are safe. I am watching for any new developments on this subject, like everyone else. For example, I didn't watch that video last posted above, just to tear it apart. I watched it because I thought maybe there might be something in it that would be definitive. It turned out there was nothing. The only thing good about it was that it was only 9 minutes.
> 
> As far as this FDA lawsuit is concerned all we know for sure, is that they were sued to release data that Pfizer submitted. The FDA gave their reasons for wanting more time and although I have no proof those are their only reasons, I also have no proof that they are not. *We also know that 1,223 vaccinated people died but we do not know what exactly killed them.* So that also tells us nothing.
> 
> It is the proof I want. Not the innuendos or speculations.


 ... ie. re bolded part - no proof unless FDA says so and you know what they're gonna to say. How about reading the rest of the 500,000 (minus 92 pages), and decipher that, yourself. Mind you, their lawyers haven't said anything yet.


----------



## HappilyRetired

OptsyEagle said:


> The other misconception here is that the FDA had to be sued to release this data. That is also incorrect. They had full intention of releasing the data, they just wanted more time. Again, it is over 500,000 pages of very difficult to read information.
> 
> If I asked you to read all that data very, very closely to make sure there was nothing proprietary in it. How long would you ask for to complete that job? The most important stuff you, I and they needed, is in the trial document I posted AND in the loads of information the FDA have already acquired on the subject of vaccines.


Yeah, they wanted more time. 55 or 75 years of time. By any standards that's ridiculous considering that they approved it in just a few short months.

How long would I need? Since Covid was a worldwide crisis, having 50 employees assigned to review 500,000 pages is not out of line for something this serious. Let's assume that each employee can read 1 page every 10 minutes. In 7 hours that's 42 pages per employee, that's 2100 pages a day. I'll round down to 2000 pages. 500,000 divided by 2000 is 250 days.

You must account for weekends, sick days, vacation, etc. so I'll add another 250 days to be generous. 500 days is 16.67 months, I'll round that up to 18 months.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> Speaking of COVID strategies, how is it a good idea to take a vaccine booster that appears to have about two months of efficacy and then try to avoid infection?


The last study I saw (this was on the CDC's page as I recall) found there was still immunity at 4 months after the third shot. The effectiveness had declined somewhat but it sounds like immunity is going to last for at least 6 months. The more potent immunity relying on B and T cells, as opposed to antibodies, appears to be *very* long-lived.

There's also good evidence of third shot effectiveness when you look at Canadian hospitalization rates. Many people 60+ had those third shots about 5 months ago and there's a notable decrease in hospitalization rates, when people have the third (booster) shot.

I haven't rushed to get mine, but after reviewing all the data, I agree the third shots are a great idea. In my case, I already missed the omicron wave (wasn't eligible in time). So I am holding off, as I think spring and summer are pretty safe times.

I will absolutely get my third MRNA shot before fall/winter comes. I just hope the MRNA shots are still available then. My plan is to get the booster before winter, so that I have peak protection during the most dangerous months.


----------



## james4beach

Here's a nice illustration of the benefit of 3 shots (booster) from BC hospital data. These are per-capita hospitalization rates, broken down by age.

Note especially, the age 50 and up categories. The darkest colour is the hospitalization rate with 3 shots. The next darkest colour is with 2 shots.

*When boosted, the hospitalization rate gets cut in half*, and by even more over age 60. I think you can interpret this as "your chances of ending up in hospital" are slashed, with a booster shot.

(This looks great, but my only concern is how long this benefit lasts and whether new variants will evade this)


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> I'll be the first one on this forum to admit I never read the (any) vaccines trials, publication, safety, etc., and etc. PRIOR to taking the shots (3 infact).


You wouldn't have learned much, anyway.

At this point, we have pretty good data coming from national health care services of various countries. This data has the appearance of objectivity without the influence of a profit motive.

My whole point was that original studies and data have not been shared and yet now countries other than the US are sharing data in near real time. When data did come out, under court order, we discover 1223 people died during the period of December 11, 2020 to February 28, 2021.

When you received your injections, did they ever mention possible side effects including death?


----------



## OptsyEagle

HappilyRetired said:


> Yeah, they wanted more time. 55 or 75 years of time. By any standards that's ridiculous considering that they approved it in just a few short months.
> 
> How long would I need? Since Covid was a worldwide crisis, having 50 employees assigned to review 500,000 pages is not out of line for something this serious. Let's assume that each employee can read 1 page every 10 minutes. In 7 hours that's 42 pages per employee, that's 2100 pages a day. I'll round down to 2000 pages. 500,000 divided by 2000 is 250 days.
> 
> You must account for weekends, sick days, vacation, etc. so I'll add another 250 days to be generous. 500 days is 16.67 months, I'll round that up to 18 months.


A page every 10 minutes, fully analysed and redacted. You are definitely dreaming.

I agree 500 pages a month, that the FDA wanted to do originally, was a low ball counter offer. But 8 months is certainly more then I would have agreed to for a job this big.

My main point is that the lawsuit is NOT evidence that they were trying to hide something. I know many want to believe it is, but it is not.

I don't really want to read all this stuff and I certainly have no interest in watching another video like the one above so I am really hoping we can do a little better job here in separating out what is suspicion and what is factual, and either post just factual stuff or at least put a personal disclaimer on the suspicious stuff that you do post. I doubt I will get my wish but that is my position on this particular subject.


----------



## TomB16

I posted the lack of full disclosure as a point of interest. I _speculate_ the Phizer vaccine has saved a couple of orders of magnitude more lives than it's taken, at the very least.

The point I was trying to make is the lack of science: open, peer reviewed, data.

It's a shame it turned into such a hot button topic. Surely we are objective enough to consider data which conflicts with our preconceptions?


During the trial, there was all kinds of time to disclose results, side effects, adverse events.



OptsyEagle said:


> A lot of scientific evidence and public disclosure of results, side effects, adverse events. Everything that you keep saying they are hiding. That was my point.



After the trial they were too busy to mention that 1223 people died in a 2.5 month period?



OptsyEagle said:


> I agree 500 pages a month, that the FDA wanted to do originally, was a low ball counter offer. But 8 months is certainly more then I would have agreed to for a job this big.





OptsyEagle said:


> My main point is that the lawsuit is NOT evidence that they were trying to hide something. I know many want to believe it is, but it is not.


And yet, oddly, the court order to deliver data got Pfizer to mention there were 1223 people who died between December 11, 2020 and February 28, 2021. They have had a year. This is a pretty big red flag.


You bet I'm going to call out this level of BS. There might be a legitimate reason for them not mentioning the deaths. If someone is aware, I would sincerely appreciate hearing it because I don't want to think something bad is happening here.

I've read the data. It's pretty thin. 99% boiler plate, by my estimate.


If I borrow my brother's car for the weekend and he gives me a call and asks how it's going, it probably wouldn't be appropriate to go through the nuances of getting a hair cut, a conversation with Mom, and having explosive diarrhea at the China Buffet, and then run out of time to mention that I got drunk and rolled his car.


----------



## OptsyEagle

@TomB16 I have no problem calling out BS. The problem I have is you are misinterpreting everything you are saying and I am concerned that it might confuse other people.

The 1,223 people that died were already disclosed by Pfizer to the FDA. Actually, they were disclosed to the public through the VAERS database long before this latest information came out and you reported about it. Even the lady in your video acknowledged that. Those dead people are not news. She also said that the VAERS system is a system to alert the health agencies to a potential problem. That system cannot confirm if it actually is a problem. In other words, we still have no idea what actually killed those 1,223 vaccinated people.

And again. The court did not force Pfizer to publish anything. Pfizer had already supplied these 500,000 pages of information to the FDA. The courts forced the FDA to publish them quicker then they originally intended to do before this legal decision.

These are very important distinctions that everyone needs to know so they can form their own opinions properly.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> You wouldn't have learned much, anyway.
> 
> At this point, we have pretty good data coming from national health care services of various countries. This data has the appearance of objectivity without the influence of a profit motive.
> 
> My whole point was that original studies and data have not been shared and yet now countries other than the US are sharing data in near real time. When data did come out, under court order, we discover 1223 people died during the period of December 11, 2020 to February 28, 2021.
> 
> *When you received your injections, did they ever mention possible side effects including death?*


 ... yes and no.

Yes. Prior to getting the injection, all signed ups were given a sheet of possible "side-effects" to watch for on return home and what to do in the event of those. If it's REALLY BAD (like you can't breathe), then it's the ER naturally. If it's a headache say, take a tylenol.

As for "death", no mention of that as it wasn't expected you would die from it since it was determined to be safe enough for the vast majority of the population. 

As I mentioned up thread, I figured if all our politicians have taken it, then it's good enough for me to take it. I'm no different than them as a human being. This is on the presumption I have no known medical constraints in taking vaccines. Hell, I take the flu shot "annually" without even asking what's in them. And now I "figured-out" why I still get the flu despite (and will continue) taking the shots "annually". Vaccine is only 1 line of defence and the primary one in avoiding the ER.

PS: And you're 200% correct that I wouldn't have learned anything - even from the condensed 92 pages plus the 1,223 deaths stats 'cause at the end of the day, it's gonna to get all muddled and fuddled in-between with the pharmaceuticals and then FDA. This is beyond looking for a needle in a haystack - it's like looking for life beyond our galaxy.


----------



## bgc_fan

zinfit said:


> Public health agencies tracks all negative outcomes regardless of whether they are connected to the vaccine. In one case a lady died by being struck by lightening. I have been looking at the Alberta data . Last I looked they had four deaths and I think they were blood clotting issues tied to the Astrasenca vaccine. On the big picture about 3200 unvaccinated died from covid. There are a large number of unvaccinated who survived their hospital stay and have long term covid effects. Based on Alberta's real time experience I accept mRNA as a safe and effective medication.


There's nothing wrong with tracking this type of data if follow-up information/investigations are done. To take an extreme example: if someone took the vaccine, and when driving on the way home fell unconscious as a reaction and got in a car crash, is this a direct vaccine death, or something a little more nuanced? The problem is that certain people will just count that as a vaccine death without understanding the factors around it.

Also, people tend to leave context out of all this data. We're talking about a report that identifies a little over a 1k *claimed* deaths worldwide, not necessarily verified, out of at least 100-200M doses administered in USA alone during those 3 month. Assuming USA administered half the doses, that means at a high end we're talking about a 0.0005%, or low end of 0.00025%. That seems a lot better than the odds that getting covid gives you.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> The other misconception here is that the FDA had to be sued to release this data. That is also incorrect. They had full intention of releasing the data, they just wanted more time.


That's a misrepresentation, they wanted over 55 years to release the information.
That's not just "more time", that's a delay until it's no longer relevant.



> If I asked you to read all that data very, very closely to make sure there was nothing proprietary in it. How long would you ask for to complete that job? The most important stuff you, I and they needed, is in the trial document I posted AND in the loads of information the FDA have already acquired on the subject of vaccines.


They managed to review it for safety in a few weeks.. I would hope that that review, with millions of lives in the balance, was done with at least a similar level of care.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> That's a misrepresentation, they wanted over 55 years to release the information.
> That's not just "more time", that's a delay until it's no longer relevant.
> 
> 
> They managed to review it for safety in a few weeks.. I would hope that that review, with millions of lives in the balance, was done with at least a similar level of care.


They wanted to release 500 pages a month. It was the math associated with 500,000 pages that suggested they wanted such a long time frame to release it. That said, they were going to release the data every single month, starting immediately. Again, another misrepresentation here where context is critical.

They managed to view the most important pages fairly quickly. You say a few weeks. Who knows how long it took them. The pages released was probably reviewed long before the court case was even completed. They most likely have not reviewed every single page that the judge has now ordered them to release. Most of this data is already in the public domain. That stuff in the public domain is not their responsibility. The data that is in their possession is. With that in mind, I imagine at this stage of the game they are wishing they never took possession of it in the first place and I imagine they will not be forcing drug companies to supply it to them in the future. It appears to be just a burden the FDA probably does not wish they had.

Anyway, my point is that the court case in itself is not evidence that a conspiracy is taking place. If one is taking place it is with the FDA, not Pfizer as many here have mistakenly insinuated. All I want is for the suspicions that you and others are putting on this court case to be seen as they are or might be. As for the data released. So far it is data that we already knew about and is not showing anything overly alarming. It is only the court case verdict that appears to be getting everyone's knickers in a bunch.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Look. I don't work for the FDA. I have no ties to Pfizer. I am just as interested about how the vaccines are working as everyone else.

The only difference that appears to me is that when I read an alarming headline I also read the content of the story. I also read other narratives of that same story and then I simply put together what is known to be a fact and and separate out what is speculation. I also take a little bit of time to figure out what makes the most common sense, with respect to the players involved and the science I already know.

If you do that you will end with the following conclusion: We have no idea what is in most of those documents but we do have a very good idea on the efficacy, safety and side effects of these vaccines. Not because all this data has been released but because every health agency, in every part of the world, has been analyzing them, every which way from Sunday, since the first person got their shot. They have been peer reviewed up the wazoo.  It would be pretty near impossible to hide anything material, pertaining to the safety and efficacy of these vaccines, with so many independent agencies monitoring the vaccines, all around the world. I would think the FDA is aware of this.

By the way. Where is Moderna's data? Where is JNJ's? Why is Pfizer the bad guy here? I will tell you why. Because some health agency hired some lawyer to sue the FDA pertaining only to Pfizer's data. That is why we are all talking about Pfizer. Do you not think Moderna is also supplying the FDA with data? This is all nonsense designed to get everyone's knickers in a bunch...and that is all it is.


----------



## HappilyRetired

bgc_fan said:


> There's nothing wrong with tracking this type of data if follow-up information/investigations are done. To take an extreme example: if someone took the vaccine, and when driving on the way home fell unconscious as a reaction and got in a car crash, is this a direct vaccine death, or something a little more nuanced? The problem is that certain people will just count that as a vaccine death without understanding the factors around it.
> 
> Also, people tend to leave context out of all this data. We're talking about a report that identifies a little over a 1k *claimed* deaths worldwide, not necessarily verified, out of at least 100-200M doses administered in USA alone during those 3 month. Assuming USA administered half the doses, that means at a high end we're talking about a 0.0005%, or low end of 0.00025%. That seems a lot better than the odds that getting covid gives you.


If someone died on the way home after getting the vaccine it would be counted as an unvaccinated death because they don't count people as vaccinated until 14 days after getting the shot. Your extreme example can't happen. Well, your example could happen but the fatality would fall under the "unvaccinated" category.

I could provide a dozen examples of Pfizer lying, hiding data, making up data, paying off doctors, etc. If they claim 1223 deaths then the real number is probably much higher.


----------



## HappilyRetired

OptsyEagle said:


> They wanted to release 500 pages a month. It was the math associated with 500,000 pages that suggested they wanted such a long time frame to release it.


At 500 pages a month it takes 1000 days (3 years) to release 500,000 pages of data, not 55 years.

Why do they need an extra 52 years?


----------



## OptsyEagle

HappilyRetired said:


> At 500 pages a month it takes 1000 days (3 years) to release 500,000 pages of data, not 55 years.
> 
> Why do they need an extra 52 years?


500 pages per month into 500,000 pages equals 1000 months, which equals 83 years.


----------



## HappilyRetired

OptsyEagle said:


> 500 pages per month into 500,000 pages equals 1000 months, which equals 83 years.


Sorry, bad math!! Regardless, 55 years is ridiculous.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> Yes. Prior to getting the injection, all signed ups were given a sheet of possible "side-effects" to watch for on return home and what to do in the event of those. If it's REALLY BAD (like you can't breathe), then it's the ER naturally. If it's a headache say, take a tylenol.


Sounds like they did a good job of informing you on the risks. 

When I took the booster, the administering pharmacist suggested taking ibuprofen if I develop fever. Of course, I did not take anything when a low fever developed the next day. I needed the immune response that was being generated during the fever period.

I was also not cautioned to be cautious during electrical storms.

Still, I think the local vaccine clinics did a pretty good job, all things considered.


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> Sorry, bad math!! Regardless, 55 years is ridiculous.


Which is the point, they were taking a hundred times longer to "review" the data for release as they did for approval. That isn't logical.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Sounds like they did a good job of informing you on the risks.


 ... well ya, they didn't inform me that I was being a guinea pig either (or was that a sheep?).



> When I took the booster, the administering pharmacist suggested taking ibuprofen if I develop fever. Of course, I did not take anything when a low fever developed the next day. I needed the immune response that was being generated during the fever period.


 ... well, I was fortunate not to have that experience. Only thing was the arm was a bit sore - maybe because it was Moderna, not Pfizer as the first 2 shots were Pfizer of which I felt NOTHING. Absolutely, NOTHING going in, and coming out. I think I was given saline instead of a vaccine. My "annual" flu shot is far more painful than all these combined.



> I was also not cautioned to be cautious during electrical storms.


 ... now that's getting abit ridiculous or maybe not, depending on who you ask. Even some building "experts" don't know what to do in the event of an earthquake. [And please don't tell me this doesn't happen in the center of the Canadian universe, Toronto.]



> Still, I think the local vaccine clinics did a pretty good job, all things considered.


 ... they did try their best. Only thing that I got me was "everyone" was vying for their shots as soon as they lowered the age threshold. It looked like all hell broke lose on the government's booking portal. I was asked do you want to get your shot in a city (St. Catherines?) near Niagara Falls when you're a resident of Toronto. Duh even you send me 'free' Ubers. 

I don't know if you recall gibors (now banned forum member)- he had to run all around his town of Mississauga just to get the shot of his choice which was Pfizer.... LMAO.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> I don't know if you recall gibors (now banned forum member)- he had to run all around his town of Mississauga just to get the shot of his choice which was Pfizer.... LMAO.


I wasn't reading the forum during that period.

I'm not aware of anything wrong with Pfizer vaccine. My beef is with their disclosure. Nationalized medicine is doing a good job of tracking, now that the vaccines are in the wild.

On the other hand, the best vaccine of all is Omicron.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I wasn't reading the forum during that period.


 ... fair enough.


> I'm not aware of anything wrong with Pfizer vaccine. My beef is with their disclosure. Nationalized medicine is doing a good job of tracking, now that the vaccines are in the wild.


 ... even you were given the full disclosure - Pfizer would likely say - you wouldn't understand all that anyways. Especially when the FDA has "approved" it.



> On the other hand, the best vaccine of all is Omicron.


 ... no, the best vaccine is Covid itself and your survival is based on whether your immune system wants to be buddy with it (along with its variants/descendants). So if you want to take that risk to buddy with Covid, by all means, don't vax and go natural.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> Which is the point, they were taking a hundred times longer to "review" the data for release as they did for approval. That isn't logical.


It is logical. While we were waiting for approval, people were dying from covid-19 because they did not have any vaccines. 

The only thing we are waiting on now is another reason for people on this board to become suspicious and lose their common sense.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> On the other hand, the best vaccine of all is Omicron.


I don't think it's the "best" vaccine. Some number of people who catch omicron end up dying. We had record high deaths in Canada during the omicron wave.

Additionally, catching covid causes severe inflammation in the body including myocarditis (heart inflammation). Given the choices, I think it's far better -- it's much SAFER -- to get a vaccine.

Omicron isn't as harmless as people like to make it out to be. I realize you caught it and survived, and most people do, but statistically speaking it's still more dangerous to catch covid than to take a vaccine.


----------



## james4beach

I'm pretty sure a fourth shot is going to be recommended. The writing is on the wall. I was listening to an interview with a doctor and he said, the rules have been relaxed mainly because of public pressure and exhaustion, not really due to the threat of covid declining. For example the hospitals are still full in Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Atlantic provinces too.

Since masks and capacity limits are gone, higher levels of community transmission are going to be the norm. So now to compensate for that, fourth shots will likely be recommended (at least for all seniors)

The Pfizer CEO also says a fourth shot is necessary and also commented that the protection from the third shot doesn't last very long.


----------



## sags

China is having big outbreaks, and they have locked down in some areas like the city of Shanghai.

In Ontario, it appears the numbers are rising. We might be done with covid but it isn't done with us.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> In Ontario, it appears the numbers are rising. We might be done with covid but it isn't done with us.


Source? Or is this just made up stuff?

We stopped mass testing, and our hosipizations, and ICU keep falling.





Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I'm pretty sure a fourth shot is going to be recommended.


I'm not.. because it might not be a good idea.








Frequent Boosters Spur Warning on Immune Response


European Union regulators warned that frequent Covid-19 booster shots could adversely affect the immune response and may not be feasible.




www.bloomberg.com







> The writing is on the wall. I was listening to an interview with a doctor and he said, the rules have been relaxed mainly because of public pressure and exhaustion, not really due to the threat of covid declining.


That's how democracies and free countries work.
Also considering the very low death rate we're seeing, are harsh restrictions really that reasonable?




> The Pfizer CEO also says a fourth shot is necessary and also commented that the protection from the third shot doesn't last very long.


Yeah, bit of a conflict of interest there.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> The Pfizer CEO also says a fourth shot is necessary and also commented that the protection from the third shot doesn't last very long.


Of course CEO of Pfizer wants your money. In other news, the CEO of Molson thinks people should drink beer.

The 3rd shot isn't working that well so I'm glad we opted out. We were coerced to take 2 shot to be allowed to participate in society but we're done with it.

Maybe once ALL the data has been released and reviewed by people with no monetary gain we'll reconsider. But since I'm almost 60 and that's 55 years in the future it's not likely.


----------



## OptsyEagle

What I would like to see, with any new vaccine drugs coming forward, is the removal of this legal "blanket immunity" that these companies were given for their initial vaccines for Covid-19.

That is going to become a dangerous problem if the health departments around the world do not identify this serious conflict and revoke that legal immunity soon.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> What I would like to see, with any new vaccine drugs coming forward, is the removal of this legal "blanket immunity" that these companies were given for their initial vaccines for Covid-19.
> 
> That is going to become a dangerous problem if the health departments around the world do not identify this serious conflict and revoke that legal immunity soon.


Blanket immunity, and no disclosure, but they want it mandatory.
Immunity with full disclosure
or Liability with lack of disclosure.

Oh and maybe if they want to have it mandatory, someone has to hold the bag for the damage.
The drug companies aren't liable.
Government "adverse reaction" compensation plans aren't paying.

Basically the government dumped all the risk on the people, which is a big problem.
The risk for this should be with the drug companies, or the government that granted them immunity. Not with the individuals who happen to get hurt.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> What I would like to see, with any new vaccine drugs coming forward, i*s the removal of this legal "blanket immunity" that these companies were given for their initial vaccines for Covid-19.*
> 
> That is going to become a dangerous problem if the health departments around the world do not identify this serious conflict and revoke that legal immunity soon.


 ... LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL ... that's like asking the regulators to fire themselves first.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Removing the blanket immunity is just asking the drug companies to stand behind their drugs. They do with just about every other drug they sell, except Covid-19 vaccines. I am not going to argue whether the immunity from legal action, that they have currently, was right or wrong. I am just saying that if you put a human being in charge of making decisions, that can pertain to the health and safety of others, where if they say YES, they make $billions of dollars and face absolutely no repercussions from that decision or they say NO and simply lose all that money, you will find most important decisions made will end with a YES answer.

It is called bias. We know it exist in all of us and so we need to balance the scales properly to ensure the right decisions are made at the right time by the right people, that are held accountable. That is all I am saying.

That legal immunity will become a problem for us if we don't get rid of it soon, and I would add, let the drug companies know as soon as possible that it is being removed...before they recommend the 4th dose for everyone, or the new 3 dose super vaccine or whatever they can dream up to make them more money.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> *Removing the blanket immunity is just asking the drug companies to stand behind their drugs. They do with just about every other drug they sell, except Covid-19 vaccines. * I am not going to argue whether the immunity from legal action, that they have currently, was right or wrong. I am just saying that if you put a human being in charge of making decisions, that can pertain to the health and safety of others, where if they say YES, they make $billions of dollars and face absolutely no repercussions from that decision or they say NO and simply lose all that money, you will find most important decisions made will end with a YES answer.


 ... if the pharmaceutical don't stand behind their vaccine, then they'll suggest you ask the question of the FDA, particularly why did the FDA approved it?



> It is called bias. We know it exist in all of us and so we need to balance the scales properly to ensure the right decisions are made at the right time by the right people, that are held accountable. That is all I am saying.
> 
> *That legal immunity will become a problem for us if we don't get rid of it soon, and I would add, let the drug companies know as soon as possible that it is being removed..*.before they recommend the 4th dose for everyone, or the new 3 dose super vaccine or whatever they can dream up to make them more money.


 ... as for removal of the blanket immunity for the pharmaceutical- that's like asking them for a "guarantee" on their vaccine that it will be 100% successful in fighting Covid. You know no such thing (a guarantee) exists. Just like do you guarantee your clients will be financially successful based on the financial plan you've given them, even they followed it step by step exactly? 

Besides you and I have signed a "waiver" prior to getting the injections and were informed of the "risks" involved. Would you care to be the first to get that waiver revoked?

Moreover, if the regulators are remotely going to remove that blanket immunity, be prepared to sue them (regulators, not pharmas) successfully first. Ya, it's known as bias (your tame word)- it's permeated everywhere with the strongest smell coming from the financial industry.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Removing the blanket immunity is just asking the drug companies to stand behind their drugs. They do with just about every other drug they sell, except Covid-19 vaccines.


And they're richly compensated for doing so.
In this case they developed a vaccine and sold it at a much lower than what the market would pay.

No risk means they can sell it for less.
If they had to set aside money for problems, they'd likely have to substantially increase the price to pay for them. That's how insurance work, and accounting for potential future liabilities is really just self insurance.


----------



## OptsyEagle

They can sell it for whatever the market will pay. They do that now and I have no problem with how they sell any of their drugs. I just want to know that the person who originally tells me it is safe, stands behind it. If they want to take a little longer to confirm a few more questions they might have, I am all for that. But if that decision environment is one where they can decide to wait, do more research and possibly lose $billions of dollars, or go ahead and make all that money right away AND the consequences are the same either way...

Just think about it. This will become very dangerous to us at some point in time. Let's deal with it before it does.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> They can sell it for whatever the market will pay. They do that now and I have no problem with how they sell any of their drugs. I just want to know that the person who originally tells me it is safe, stands behind it. If they want to take a little longer to confirm a few more questions they might have, I am all for that. But if that decision environment is one where they can decide to wait, do more research and possibly lose $billions of dollars, or go ahead and make all that money right away AND the consequences are the same either way...
> 
> Just think about it. This will become very dangerous to us at some point in time. Let's deal with it before it does.


Part of the immunity deal was a lower price. But I agree they have to figure something out.

It really is a series of trade offs, more liability means higher cost, slower and fewer developments and likely increased safety.
The alternative is cheap, fast, plentiful, and less safe.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> China is having big outbreaks, and they have locked down in some areas like the city of Shanghai.
> 
> In Ontario, it appears the numbers are rising. We might be done with covid but it isn't done with us.


I've reported this as COVID19 disinformation.

The numbers for Ontario are falling. I posted hours ago.

sags is posting in other threads, but refusing to back up these false claims..


----------



## londoncalling

China locks down city of 9 million amid new spike in cases : NPR 

China under lockdown. Everybody ready for the next round?


----------



## like_to_retire

londoncalling said:


> Everybody ready for the next round?


I hope that doesn't happen. The reports I read say that China has acted aggressively to this outbreak (almost overkill) as they had some of the lowest vaccination rates in the elderly despite their greater vulnerability, and also limited ICU and hospital bed capacity. I don't know if we can compare their situation to Canada.

ltr


----------



## bgc_fan

londoncalling said:


> China locks down city of 9 million amid new spike in cases : NPR
> 
> China under lockdown. Everybody ready for the next round?


You have to keep in mind their criteria for lockdown is any cases greater than 0. In this case 78 cases in a city of 9 million. China does have a 85% vaccination rate, but using their Sinopharm vaccine which is much less effective than Pfizer or Moderna.


----------



## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> China locks down city of 9 million amid new spike in cases : NPR
> 
> China under lockdown. Everybody ready for the next round?


Who cares about health? Here in Canada we're ready to party!

I just talked with a colleague today who went to a 300 person funeral on the weekend. She said it was very crowded. March break is starting and people are going to take their covid-infected kids all over the place.

Face it, the trajectory here is that we're going to stick our heads in the sand and pretend covid waves aren't happening, until they eventually force broad shutdowns again by overwhelming the hospitals.

Of course we COULD prevent that situation by sticking with mandatory masks and capacity limits, to put a damper on community spread. We could also ramp up testing and put back restrictions that require infected people to isolate themselves.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> I just talked with a colleague today who went to a 300 person funeral on the weekend. She said it was very crowded.


I'll bet the funeral home appreciated so much walk in business. 




james4beach said:


> Face it, the trajectory here is that we're going to stick our heads in the sand and pretend covid waves aren't happening, until they eventually force broad shutdowns again by overwhelming the hospitals.
> 
> Of course we COULD prevent that situation by sticking with mandatory masks and capacity limits, to put a damper on community spread. We could also ramp up testing and put back restrictions that require infected people to isolate themselves.


I don't share your perspective on this.

The physicians and virologists I follow indicate Omicron will likely change that. We are about to move into the endemic phase of COVID. It will still be around but not in big waves or big numbers. Omicron will provide tremendous, but not complete, herd immunity.

There will still be seasonal peaks. I'd like to know how much of the summer reduction in viral activity comes from less time indoors and how much comes from increased vitamin D levels. It looks to me like the latter is far more impactful on viral propagation.


----------



## TomB16

The Bubonic plague is still around. We have it in our society today, although it is now rare.

Further, the plague propagated through the global population over the course of two years. From there, it went from pandemic to endemic.

All of the effort we are making to prevent the spread of COVID is slowing herd immunity and allowing propagation. The reason Omicron is likely to cause the change from pandemicity to endemicity is directly related to the speed with which it propagates. The faster the propagation to herd immunity, the lower the chance of a resistant variant.


----------



## Money172375

maybe this is Sags data? 0.01% increase in wastewater COVID.

still good data showing vaccines keep you out of the hospital/ICU.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> still good data showing vaccines keep you out of the hospital/ICU.


The test positivity rate of 11.5% shows amazingly high levels of community spread. I hope the hospitals don't get loaded (so far it's looking OK) but covid is just ripping through Ontario.

I think it's a very bad idea to normalize such high levels of community transmission, as provinces like ON are doing now. If one parameter of this equation changes (for example, new variant, or vaccine protection trails off) the way the public is behaving right now could lead to absolute disaster.

If this reckless public behaviour continues into winter, and if vaccine immunity wears off (as it appears to be the case) that's virtually guaranteed to cause more serious waves.


----------



## sags

The biggest problem may be hospital staffing.

Some nurses are saying they had no specialized nurses to respond to "code blue" alarms on their shifts. They say many nurses are retiring or waiting for the $5,000 bonus before retiring.

It takes an educated RN, with years of experience and specialized training to answer those life and death types of calls.

Recent graduate nurses pr PSWs aren't qualified to handle those situations.

Doctors are the head of the healthcare system, but it is the nurses that provide all the patient care when doctors aren't around.


----------



## sags

The data also shows that hospitalizations are 7 times higher among the un-vaccinated.

251 per million for un-vaccinated and 39.1 for people with 2 doses.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> The test positivity rate of 11.5% shows amazingly high levels of community spread. I hope the hospitals don't get loaded (so far it's looking OK) but covid is just ripping through Ontario.


Not really, the people they're testing are different.
Kids with sniffles don't get COVID tests, and with rapid tests free and available, I'd assume the only people going to get a PCR test are those who are required to by their employer.



> I think it's a very bad idea to normalize such high levels of community transmission, as provinces like ON are doing now. If one parameter of this equation changes (for example, new variant, or vaccine protection trails off) the way the public is behaving right now could lead to absolute disaster.


Not unless we get a new strain that's actually dangerous.
The current Omicron strain might be more lethal than other common diseases, but most of us are vaccinated, and by now a high portion of the population has had COVID.

I think COVID is going the right direction and simply fizzling out into something we can mostly ignore. Just like previous pandemic viruses



> If this reckless public behaviour continues into winter, and if vaccine immunity wears off (as it appears to be the case) that's virtually guaranteed to cause more serious waves.


The people are not going to take lockdowns unless it's really dire.
At first it was just the young and reckless, but now middle aged people and parents are saying enough is enough.
Continuous lockdowns are no way to live.

I'm vaccinated, the hospitalization risk for a health person who's fully vaccinated is pretty low, and there are hospital beds if I need one.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Not really, the people they're testing are different.
> Kids with sniffles don't get COVID tests, and with rapid tests free and available, I'd assume the only people going to get a PCR test are those who are required to by their employer.


It's a good question, who is being tested. But that positivity rate is awfully high and it's still bad news -- even if the people being tests are those who need it for their jobs, and everyone in hospital.

Such a high positivity rate shows that covid is ripping through Ontario



MrMatt said:


> The people are not going to take lockdowns unless it's really dire.
> At first it was just the young and reckless, but now middle aged people and parents are saying enough is enough.


I suggest they develop more respect for hospital workers and doctors. If the public burdens the hospitals with another massive wave, this time without any willingness to adjust behaviours, then we WILL pay the consequences.

The consequences will be that doctors and nurses will quit and the profession will be short staffed for the next 20 years. That means that you will suffer adverse effects for any medical help you need going forward.

I don't know about you MrMatt, but if I ever need medical care for something, I'm really hoping I can count on the hospitals to help me.

Maybe it's a good idea to not wear out the doctors and nurses. The public acts like spoiled brats, above everything else wants to keep partying, drinking at bars and having 100 person gatherings, no matter how often doctors warn them to not do it. The doctors ask people to wear masks; the public refuses. The doctors and nurses have warned us so many times about this.


----------



## Money172375

Covid is ripping through everywhere. The last estimate I heard is that Ontario is around 20,000 cases a day, in reality. And with those numbers, and the continual decline in hospitalizations…….this all points to good signs.

I understand the “fear”, but at least in Ontario, this has always been about hospital capacity. Once capacity was restored, restrictions eased.

Nothing we’ve done stopped this virus…only slowed it down. And now that it’s slowed to manageable levels, it’s time to move on….for now at least.

many major financial employers in Toronto welcomed back their first cohort of employees to the office. People have been socializing for weeks and months here……the latest round of restrictions were virtually ignored, save for masking in public and some capacity restrictions. Sociliazing in private homes has been going on for months. And hospitalizations have continued to go down. Masking rules disappear in one week, but i suspect many will still wear them When retail shopping.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Covid is ripping through everywhere.


It's not ripping through everywhere. Look at the positivity rate in other locations, they are much lower. Test positivity rate in BC is 7%. And New York state is 2%, strongly suggesting there isn't widespread community transmission.

Ontario in comparison is 12% positivity



Money172375 said:


> Nothing we’ve done stopped this virus…only slowed it down


Slowing it down *is the goal*. That's the whole point of public health measures, masks, vaccination etc. Of course it cannot be stopped entirely but when there's a dangerous infectious disease, the goal is to reduce the rate of spread.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Slowing it down *is the goal*.


That was never the goal, nor should it be.

The goal is to not overwhelm healthcare, so people who struggle with COVID can get treatment. This is precisely what Money172375 wrote.

We are all going to get COVID. That is the reality.

I've had COVID. Twice, actually. Most of us have had it, although some may not be aware. Now it's a matter of waiting for the rest of the herd to be processed by COVID. Hopefully, they will be exposed to Omicron, which isn't nearly as lethal as previous variants.

COVID is like a fire. It will not go out until all of the wood has been burned and it runs out of fuel.


----------



## james4beach

The UK has removed just about all restrictions. Initially you can see that cases declined, but recently the cases started trending up again.

Now it looks like hospitalizations are rising too. The same will likely happen in Canada. It's really just a question of how much load this puts on the hospitals, eventually.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> It's not ripping through everywhere. Look at the positivity rate in other locations, they are much lower. Test positivity rate in BC is 7%. And New York state is 2%, strongly suggesting there isn't widespread community transmission.
> 
> Ontario in comparison is 12% positivity
> 
> 
> 
> Slowing it down *is the goal*. That's the whole point of public health measures, masks, vaccination etc. Of course it cannot be stopped entirely but when there's a dangerous infectious disease, the goal is to reduce the rate of spread.


I don’t think positivity rate Carries the same weight in Ontario anymore. And neither does the number of reported cases. Testing here has been severely limited the last few months to only a select few groups. Gone are the days of entire households getting tested because one member was exposed to the virus.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> It's a good question, who is being tested. But that positivity rate is awfully high and it's still bad news -- even if the people being tests are those who need it for their jobs, and everyone in hospital.
> 
> Such a high positivity rate shows that covid is ripping through Ontario


No it's showing people who get the PCR test tend to have COVID.
With rapid tests lots of people who felt they were low probability aren't getting tested.
Plus the general public can't easily get a PCR test.



> I don't know about you MrMatt, but if I ever need medical care for something, I'm really hoping I can count on the hospitals to help me.


Really, that's an odd statement, I've already stated that I think they had Omicron return to school a bit too early in Ontario because the wave wasn't clearly over.



> Maybe it's a good idea to not wear out the doctors and nurses. The public acts like spoiled brats, above everything else wants to keep partying, drinking at bars and having 100 person gatherings, no matter how often doctors warn them to not do it. The doctors ask people to wear masks; the public refuses. The doctors and nurses have warned us so many times about this.


That would be nice, but we can't live in hiding for a disease that really isn't a massive threat right now.
As far as ignoring experts, look at the Ukraine, security experts have been warning for years, but the warnings went unheeded.
Look at finance, look at every single field, people ignore the experts.

Just to be clear, the nurses you're referencing are the SAME ONES that won their case AGAINST mandatory vaccinations. So yeah, I'll stick to the science, and not necessarily the popular opinion. The nurses were wrong when they refused the flu shot, and they might not be right on the correct balance of actions at this point in time.

I'm not saying COVID is gone, just that the extreme measures may no longer be warranted, based on the situation in Ontario.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Slowing it down *is the goal*. That's the whole point of public health measures, masks, vaccination etc. Of course it cannot be stopped entirely but when there's a dangerous infectious disease, the goal is to reduce the rate of spread.


The goal is to not have everyone die.
We don't lock down for the flu. 

It's a balance, initial COVID was dangerous and lockdowns were appropriate, current COVID doesn't seem to be as bad, if it gets there sure, but right now, it doesn't seem justified. 

In Ontario the hospitalization is still very low.


----------



## sags

There will continue to be high inflation as supply chains that pass through China continue to be disrupted by their latest waves of covid.

Covid causes a lot of damage.........to healthcare systems and to the economy.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/china-covid-pandemic-trade-1.6385206


----------



## sags

I wonder if we are making the same mistake in Canada as other countries have done and failing to learn from their experience.

*German*_ Health Minister Karl Lauterbach said the impact of COVID-19 in the country had reached a *"critical" level* after the number of infections rose to a record high this week.

"We are in a situation that I would like to describe as critical,'' Lauterbach said at the weekly coronavirus press briefing in Berlin on Friday. "We have strongly rising case figures again. [...] I keep reading that the omicron variant is a milder variant but that's only true to a limited extent."

Despite planning to further relax COVID-19 rules, Germany logged a record high number of coronavirus infections in 24 hours on Thursday, and a figure almost as high, 252,836 cases, on Friday.

*"The situation is objectively worse than the public mood," the health minister said.

He said that some people's belief in Germany, including politicians, that the pandemic was now over, was an "error of judgement."*

"We can not be satisfied with a situation in which 250 people are dying every day and the prospect is that in a few weeks more people will die,'' he said._









COVID digest: Germany's situation 'critical' – DW – 03/11/2022


The German health minister has called on the federal states to reevaluate the coronavirus rules before restrictions are lifted. In other news, a Chinese city locks down as COVID cases rise. Follow DW for more.




www.dw.com


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> I don’t think positivity rate Carries the same weight in Ontario anymore. A*nd neither does the number of reported cases. Testing here has been severely limited the last few months to only a select few groups. Gone are the days of entire households getting tested because one member was exposed to the virus.*


 ... then wouldn't it be logical to say the "positive" numbers are actually "higher" than what's reported or left out (aka "underestimated")? 

Of course, there's no danger in doing that since all is rosy with a self-made epidemic whilst the pandemic is ending! So they (politicians and the top provincial doc) wish.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> I wonder if we are making the same mistake in Canada as other countries have done and failing to learn from their experience.
> 
> *German*_ Health Minister Karl Lauterbach said the impact of COVID-19 in the country had reached a *"critical" level* after the number of infections rose to a record high this week.
> 
> "We are in a situation that I would like to describe as critical,'' Lauterbach said at the weekly coronavirus press briefing in Berlin on Friday. "We have strongly rising case figures again. [...] I keep reading that the omicron variant is a milder variant but that's only true to a limited extent."
> 
> Despite planning to further relax COVID-19 rules, Germany logged a record high number of coronavirus infections in 24 hours on Thursday, and a figure almost as high, 252,836 cases, on Friday.
> 
> *"The situation is objectively worse than the public mood," the health minister said.
> 
> He said that some people's belief in Germany, including politicians, that the pandemic was now over, was an "error of judgement."*
> 
> "We can not be satisfied with a situation in which 250 people are dying every day and the prospect is that in a few weeks more people will die,'' he said._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID digest: Germany's situation 'critical' – DW – 03/11/2022
> 
> 
> The German health minister has called on the federal states to reevaluate the coronavirus rules before restrictions are lifted. In other news, a Chinese city locks down as COVID cases rise. Follow DW for more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dw.com


 ... meanwhile Ontario has to run its "own experiment" to prove the above ... LOL.

Ford better pray the "declining" numbers in Ontario are gonna last til June in time for his election ... LOLOLOLOLOLOL.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... then wouldn't it be logical to say the "positive" numbers are actually "higher" than what's reported or left out (aka "underestimated")?


The numbers are clearly higher than testing indicates. The ratio of infection in the population is undoubtedly lower than testing indicates, since testing selects the most likely positive infections with the exception of air travellers.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> The numbers are clearly higher than testing indicates. *The ratio of infection in the population is undoubtedly lower than testing indicates, *since testing selects the most likely positive infections with the exception of air travellers.


 ... care to define the "ratio of infection in the population ... " there?


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... meanwhile Ontario has to run its "own experiment" to prove the above ... LOL.


In the current testing environment, the key statistic is hospitalizations / ICU numbers / death rate. When death rate is down, COVID likely is as well. Note there is a very small lag between infections , hospitalizations, and death rate.

Looking at the death rate peak at the very end of January, we can see COVID is on the decline in Ontario.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Question on that "decline" is for how long? I don't suppose the rising stats reported from around the globe are false?


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... care to define the "ratio of infection in the population ... " there?


Sure.

So, we don't know what ratio of the Ontario population has COVID, since we don't test randomly. We only test people we think have it, to save money. The tests are helpful on an individual basis but they no longer provide an indication of what ratio of the population has COVID.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Question of that "decline" is for how long? I don't suppose the upwards stats reported from around the globe are false?


It varies regionally, even within Ontario. Outbreaks, population density, and countermeasures all have an impact.

Some countries are behind others. Western Australia, for example, is just getting to their peak. They are late because they were locked down for so long but they are getting it. We are all getting it.

For what it's worth, I think the zero COVID policy in China is massively misguided in the era of Omicron. They should be vaccinating, giving people two or three weeks, and then exposing them to Omicron.

COVID is like a fire. The fire will stop when there are no trees left to burn.

When the first COVID carrier flew into Pearson, that started an outbreak. The outbreak will spread through travellers who will start their own outbreaks in destination cities and it will also spread through staff and local people. The people in Thunder Bay are going to be infected but it will spread through Toronto first.


----------



## bgc_fan

Beaver101 said:


> ... then wouldn't it be logical to say the "positive" numbers are actually "higher" than what's reported or left out (aka "underestimated")?
> 
> Of course, there's no danger in doing that since all is rosy with a self-made epidemic whilst the pandemic is ending! So they (politicians and the top provincial doc) wish.


Yes, but I think the point is you can't extend the positivity rate of 11% to assume that 11% of the general population is infected. If only high risk population is being tested and you are getting 11%, a lower risk population (i.e. general population) would likely have a lower positivity rate. How much, don't know.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Sure.
> 
> So, we don't know what ratio of the Ontario population has COVID, since we don't test randomly. We only test people we think have it, to save money. The tests are helpful on an individual basis but they no longer provide an indication of what ratio of the population has COVID.


 ... so you're saying the "*The ratio of infection in the population is undoubtedly lower than testing indicates, ... "* is based on the fact that the hospitalisation rate is lower currently and the assumption it'll trend even lower. Correct? 

As I asked, for how long will this good-looking trend last? Ideally should be permanent but let's not get greedy, how about a year? I think we'll be lucky enough to see it doesn't trend back up in 4 months' time given the stats around the globe. 

And of course, the good-looking trend will continue to look even better when testings ain't done - better yet nothing to report and the top medical advisor can take a vacation.


----------



## Beaver101

bgc_fan said:


> Yes, but I think the point is you can't extend the positivity rate of 11% to assume that 11% of the general population is infected. If only high risk population is being tested and you are getting 11%, a lower risk population (i.e. general population) would likely have a lower positivity rate. How much, don't know.


 ... let me put this kind of reporting or lack of transparency, doesn't it bothers you/the public? And I haven't said anything about de-risking yet.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> It varies regionally, even within Ontario. Outbreaks, population density, and countermeasures all have an impact.
> 
> *Some countries are behind others. Western Australia, for example, is just getting to their peak. They are late because they were locked down for so long but they are getting it. We are all getting it.
> 
> For what it's worth, I think the zero COVID policy in China is massively misguided in the era of Omicron. They should be vaccinating, giving people two or three weeks, and then exposing them to Omicron.*
> 
> COVID is like a fire. The fire will stop when there are no trees left to burn.
> 
> When the first COVID carrier flew into Pearson, that started an outbreak. The outbreak will spread through travellers who will start their own outbreaks in destination cities and it will also spread through staff and local people. The people in Thunder Bay are going to be infected but it will spread through Toronto first.


 ... bottomline: still a pandemic, correct? So when are we gonna get to an epidemic or how about an endemic? Another 2 or 3 years? .... LOLOLOLOL ... better yet, jump right from a pandemic to the-end.


----------



## bgc_fan

Beaver101 said:


> ... let me put this kind of reporting or lack of transparency, doesn't it bothers you/the public? And I haven't said anything about de-risking yet.


From my POV, it's more of a risk management thing. We don't have the resources to test everyone on a regular basis. Unless we plan on going heavy handed like China, all we can do is use other indicators to monitor the situation (wastewater, ICU occupancy). I personally don't see needing to lock down, but loosening up restrictions seem reasonable as long as things are trending the right way. But, I'd say maintaining certain precautions like mask wearing should stay in place. To me, that seems to be the minimum we can do besides getting vaccinated until things hit a reasonable level.


----------



## OptsyEagle

China can lockdown all they want. Their problem with their strategy is that even if it works, it won't work forever. There is no such thing anymore as zero covid on the planet earth. That was a dream we had, perhaps about a year ago when we were hoping our vaccines were going to be the holy grail. We have now wakened up to the actual situation we are in. The vaccines can save lives but they cannot stop covid-19. Now, the best one can hope for is a "zero covid situation for some period of time" and then have covid go through the community later.

I just think the cost of such a delay and the risk that one might have to deal with a different variant for the exposure they will get is not very well thought out. Obviously the scientists in China are a little hesitant to explain this bad news to Xi, so the virus is doing it. That is what is happening in China right now.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Instead of getting a 2 hours movie, you're gonna get a 2 days (if not more) movie ... and some are partying as if the pandemic is over ..... carry on. 

Let's see how March break goes (for Ontario) ... maybe we'll get an April Fool's day instead ... LOLOLOLOLOL ....


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> It varies regionally, even within Ontario. Outbreaks, population density, and countermeasures all have an impact.


Almost makes it reasonable to use a regional approach.



> For what it's worth, I think the zero COVID policy in China is massively misguided in the era of Omicron. They should be vaccinating, giving people two or three weeks, and then exposing them to Omicron.


I think slower exposure is a good idea.
Masking in general isn't too bad, but I don't wear a mask for 10 hours a day.



> COVID is like a fire. The fire will stop when there are no trees left to burn.


No suitable hosts, with Omicron it might be possible to burn itself out, that's the problem with viruses that spread too fast.

The real issue with COVID initially was that it was very hard to contain spread, and just lethal enough to be a problem, but not so lethal that people died right away.
Omicron is a significantly different, different enough to end this... I don't know.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Unless we have a problem with hospitals...slower exposure = longer pandemic

That is all you get from it.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> Unless we have a problem with hospitals...slower exposure = longer pandemic
> 
> That is all you get from it.


Well actually if you slow it down enough it will die off.. that's how we stopped SARS.

It just really unlikely with something this contagious.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong, I just think that the appropriate measures and trade off varies as this goes on, and right now overly aggressive measures aren't justified, pretty much the entire world agrees that looser measures are appropriate.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Well actually if you slow it down enough it will die off.. that's how we stopped SARS.


 ... no we did not slow down SARs so then it died off. It just wasn't as contagious and had with less people infected so eventually, those infected died off along with SARs.



> It just really unlikely with something this contagious.


 ... no doo-doo.



> I'm not saying anyone is wrong, I just think that the appropriate measures and trade off varies as this goes on, and right now overly aggressive measures aren't justified, pretty much the entire world agrees that looser measures are appropriate.


 ... no, the "entire world" doesn't agree with you on that 'cause the infection just goes around and around and around 'cause people want to move around and around and around .... humans are perfect hosts for viruses.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... bottomline: still a pandemic, correct? So when are we gonna get to an epidemic or how about an endemic? Another 2 or 3 years? .... LOLOLOLOL ... better yet, jump right from a pandemic to the-end.


I believe the pandemic will be over in the next few weeks. Perhaps by April or the middle of April.

That's not to say COVID will be over, it just won't be an epidemic on more than one continent. I expect China will be the last big COVID fire. CHINA should be done by July, or so.

There could be a new strain that will create another global wave but my understanding is that possible but not likely. The virus is more likely to remain endemic like cold and flue.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> I believe the pandemic will be over in the next few weeks. Perhaps by April or the middle of April.


I disagree. The UK is showing us, once you open everything, the virus keeps circulating and people keep ending up in hospital. It's not like covid magically becomes less harmful all of a sudden. It re-infects people, as both natural immunity and vaccine immunity wanes with time.

Even if we optimistically assume no more variants, the hospitalizations are still going to increase once cold/flu season starts. More people will land in hospital with covid. The only question is, will hospitals become overloaded with it? Let's hope not.

If the hospitals become overloaded again, masks will have to be mandatory and various limits will need to be enforced. I give it about 50% chance of happening this winter.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I disagree. The UK is showing us, once you open everything, the virus keeps circulating and people keep ending up in hospital. It's not like covid magically becomes less harmful all of a sudden. It re-infects people, as both natural immunity and vaccine immunity wanes with time.
> 
> Even if we optimistically assume no more variants, the hospitalizations are still going to increase once cold/flu season starts. More people will land in hospital with covid. The only question is, will hospitals become overloaded with it? Let's hope not.
> 
> If the hospitals become overloaded again, masks will have to be mandatory and various limits will need to be enforced. I give it about 50% chance of happening this winter.


Maybe maybe not, the fatality rate seems to be dropping, right now in Ontario we're at a daily death rate of less than 1 in a million, still a leading cause of death, but not high enough to shut everything down.

I think that we should have more masks, or at least heavily sanitizer/handwashing, but both of those seem to be waning in popularity.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Maybe maybe not, the fatality rate seems to be dropping, right now in Ontario we're at a daily death rate of less than 1 in a million, still a leading cause of death, but not high enough to shut everything down.
> 
> I think that we should have more masks, or at least heavily sanitizer/handwashing, but both of those seem to be waning in popularity.


This is beautiful news and I really hope it continues like this, but after something that's been this dangerous for so long, I think it's prudent to take baby steps.

Masks for sure. I'd also like better availability of testing. It's currently impossible for me to get tested, unless I pay around $100 for a rapid test at a private clinic.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Some people really don't want Covid to end. Those in power don't want to give it up. Those who feel secure with the government making all their decisions fear independence.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> I disagree. The UK is showing us, once you open everything, the virus keeps circulating and people keep ending up in hospital. It's not like covid magically becomes less harmful all of a sudden. It re-infects people, as both natural immunity and vaccine immunity wanes with time.


I didn't say COVID would go away.

The expectation is that it will become endemic. People will get it here and there but it is unlikely to have giant peaks, like it does now.

Meanwhile, people who had SARS COV v1 17 years ago still carry the T cells today. They continue to have strong immunity against the virus.

The booster appears to be good for about two months. The folks I trust think natural immunity is likely to last as long as other virus, like SARS COV v1.

As for the multiple infections, that is explained by the body having two layers of immune system. There is a mucosal box consisting of the sinus, nose, back of the throat, and top of the lungs, that can fight off infection. In cases where it is successful, the body does not have a full immune response.

When people say "it is moving into my lungs", what is happening is the infection is moving down from the lung mucosa into the lower part of the lungs, which is a systemic infection.

In this way, vaccinated people and even some really healthy, unvaccinated, people will not end up with the systemic infection needed to provide the long term immune response. If you've been hit hard by COVID, you're very likely have strong immunity. If symptoms were mild or none, you are at risk of reinfection.

The point is, the more people who have had it, the better. Infection rates are exponential. That is terrible when a novel virus is spreading through the population. The exponential slope works on the down side, also. Just look at the peak infection graphs. They parabolic on both the up side and the down side, like a spike.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Masks for sure. I'd also like better availability of testing. It's currently impossible for me to get tested, unless I pay around $100 for a rapid test at a private clinic.


Here rapid tests are easily available for free. Who doesn't offer free testing? That seems kind of dumb.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> This is beautiful news and I really hope it continues like this, but after something that's been this dangerous for so long, I think it's prudent to take baby steps.
> 
> Masks for sure. I'd also like better availability of testing. It's currently impossible for me to get tested, unless I pay around $100 for a rapid test at a private clinic.


Pcr or antigen? Getting an antigen test is pretty easy in ontario. $40 at shoppers and Costco is also starting them at $17.

There are also free tests available in short supply.

conversely, when I was in Germany……residents could get a free rapid test at the testing facilities which are are on every corner. I also saw them in the supermarket for $2.


----------



## zinfit

If you are in the US sleepy Joe is giving away two tests per person free.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Pcr or antigen? Getting an antigen test is pretty easy in ontario. $40 at shoppers and Costco is also starting them at $17.


I think rapid tests are all Antigen tests.
I think in some places you can get a rush PCR test, but that's still several hours or next day.



> There are also free tests available in short supply.


They're easily available here in Ontario.



> conversely, when I was in Germany……residents could get a free rapid test at the testing facilities which are are on every corner. I also saw them in the supermarket for $2.


I actually think a nominal fee test, or "free with purchase" to discourage scalping is a good idea.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> If you are in the US sleepy Joe is giving away two tests per person free.


Yeah, I don't want a sleepy joe sniff test.. they're kinda creepy


----------



## TomB16

It appears the UK is going to provide an interesting opportunity to study COVID strategy.

Scotland was set to lift their mask mandate but have now extended it into April. They also have increasing infection rates.

Ireland, which has lifted their mask mandate lifted at the end of February, has seen an increase in cases as Omicron BA.2 takes over the country but have not gone beyond the early February peak of BA.1. Also, while infection rates are at a new peak in Scotland, death rates are not.

This is an opportunity to see the response of England and Ireland (masks recommended) versus Scotland (mask mandate).


Meanwhile, the death rate in Uganda, where the vaccine rate is only 11%, was only slightly elevated by Omicron and haven't had a death from it in a couple of weeks.










For some reason, people are extremely resistant to the idea of doing nothing. In this case, doing nothing appears to be the correct approach but we will have further evidence in an extremely short time.


----------



## TomB16

Check out what Canada looks like, for all of our masking and shut downs.











Trying to avoid natural infection is perpetuating COVID.


----------



## TomB16

Here is Afganistan, where the vaccination rate is also 11%











The point is not that vaccination is bad. The point is that vaccination is no way substitute for the immunity generated by natural infection.

To me, the best outcome appears to be vaccination to improve survivability followed closely by natural infection (of Omicron) to produce lasting immunity but during the vaccination efficacy period.

Because of this, countries which are either cavalier about or have inadequate health care have reached endemicity already while countries trying to avoid infection are perpetuating the virus.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Here is Afganistan, where the vaccination rate is also 11%
> ...
> 
> The point is not that vaccination is bad. The point is that vaccination is no way substitute for the immunity generated by natural infection.
> 
> To me, the best outcome appears to be vaccination to improve survivability followed closely by natural infection (of Omicron) to produce lasting immunity but during the vaccination efficacy period.
> 
> Because of this, countries which are either cavalier about or have inadequate health care have reached endemicity already *while countries trying to avoid infection are perpetuating the virus*.


 ... so who in these world-class countries wants to sincerely intentionally "volunteer" with natural infection? Have your pick from this list:
The rich?
The politicians?
The taxpayers?
Those who say_do-nothing?
Those who accuses others of hiding in their basements?
etc.

So just who wants to be a hero and volunteer in catching Covid? Mind you, being labelled a hero doesn't mean sainthood, just a stat.

Do I see any hands-up?


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... so who in these world-class countries wants to sincerely "volunteer" with natural infection?


I volunteered by going to what was basically a COVID party in Mexico for a few months. It was a couple of weeks after a vaccine booster so a fresh batch of omicron was little more than an inconvenience that kept me at the hotel for 10 days, ordering food up from the kitchen, listening to the ocean waves, and posting on investment related web sites.

I am doing my part to help battle COVID.


----------



## TomB16

Speaking of financial markets, I believe supply chain issues will continue until China realizes massive lockdowns will slow the virus spread but not stop it.

Masking and lockdowns were once the best approach but are no longer so. Omicron cannot be stopped. So, I have no expectation of supply chain issues going away any time soon.

Now we get to observe how long it takes healthcare systems in various countries to adapt to the change in thinking required to most effectively deal with COVID.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I volunteered by going to what was basically a COVID party in Mexico for a few months. It was a couple of weeks after a vaccine booster so a fresh batch of omicron was little more than an inconvenience that kept me at the hotel for 10 days, ordering food up from the kitchen, listening to the ocean waves, and posting on investment related web sites.
> 
> I am doing my part to help battle COVID.


 ... I mentioned "sincerely" volunteer - should change that to "intentionally" volunteer. In your case, it was un-intentional and you got lucky by surviving it. Others may not, and I'm certain no-one in their right calculating (sans reckless) mind would "intentionally volunteer", especially knowing how risky to do so.


----------



## sags

The new Omicron variant BA 2 is spreading rapidly. It is more infectious than the Omicron BA 1 variant.

Will it be different this time ? It sounds like it is a waiting game to find out.









Covid cases are rising as omicron's 'stealth' subvariant spreads around the world


Covid cases are rising in Europe with an increasing number attributed to a "stealth" subvariant of the omicron strain.




www.cnbc.com










CityNews







toronto.citynews.ca


----------



## bgc_fan

TomB16 said:


> It appears the UK is going to provide an interesting opportunity to study COVID strategy.
> 
> Scotland was set to lift their mask mandate but have now extended it into April. They also have increasing infection rates.
> 
> Ireland, which has lifted their mask mandate lifted at the end of February, has seen an increase in cases as Omicron BA.2 takes over the country but have not gone beyond the early February peak of BA.1. Also, while infection rates are at a new peak in Scotland, death rates are not.
> 
> This is an opportunity to see the response of England and Ireland (masks recommended) versus Scotland (mask mandate).
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, the death rate in Uganda, where the vaccine rate is only 11%, was only slightly elevated by Omicron and haven't had a death from it in a couple of weeks.
> 
> View attachment 22959
> 
> 
> For some reason, people are extremely resistant to the idea of doing nothing. In this case, doing nothing appears to be the correct approach but we will have further evidence in an extremely short time.


And yet another person who doesn't know how to interpret data.
What's the median age in Uganda? 16.7 years, with a 25.7% urbanization rate.
Let's compare to Canada. 41.1 years, with a 81.3% urbanization rate.

So Canadians are most densely packed in urban areas and significantly older than Ugandans. Doesn't take much to realize why Canadians would be more likely to die from covid than Ugandans.

Age is a major factor in covid deaths and people like pointing to Africa because of low immunization rate, but forget the fact that Africa has a very young population. The world’s 10 youngest populations are all in Africa

Edit: Should also point out that Uganda did have lockdowns: Uganda Imposes 42-Day COVID-19 Lockdown
In fact, they were praised for their strict lockdown at the beginning on curbing covid: Uganda's tough approach curbs COVID, even as Africa nears 1 million cases
And only recently opened up schools after 2 year lockdown: https://www.usnews.com/news/world/a...schools-reopen-ending-worlds-longest-lockdown

So maybe Uganda is the wrong counterpoint to Canada after all even taking into account demographics.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Let's look at what we know.


We know Omicron is one of the most infectious viruses the planet has ever seen.
We have evidence that BA2 is a little more infectious then BA1, but not more severe
We know that the vaccines do not do much of a job to protect against infection
The 3rd dose helps a little but it is very time sensitive and what we have been seeing is not much time at all. So lets just say that no one really has any protection from being infected by Omicron.
Early evidence is showing that hospitalization precisely related to Omicron (backing out incidental infections) are not rising significantly.
We know that lockdowns and restrictions just delay the future. They can't prevent it.
We know natural infection provides a more robust protection and a different type of protection, since it provides IGA antibodies situated directly in our breathing tracks. Vaccines do not.

What this all adds up to is that @TomB16 is correct, although I have been stating the same thing for many months now. The best course of action going forward, that has any possibility of success, that we have not actually tried already, is to drop precautions. Obtain community exposure as quickly as we can, before our immunity from vaccine wanes to zero, and see where it all this goes.

It is not really a choice, although many here seem to keep hanging on to the dream that we actually have an alternative. We are going there. The only choice we have is do we check out how this will work now or do we find out how all this all works later? Sometime in the future where our weather is probably colder, our vaccine immunity has declined some more and maybe a different variant becomes the option for exposure? I say we go now.


----------



## Beaver101

bgc_fan said:


> And yet another person who doesn't know how to interpret data.
> *What's the median age in Uganda? 16.7 years, with a 25.7% urbanization rate.*
> Let's compare to Canada. 41.1 years, with a 81.3% urbanization rate.
> 
> *So Canadians are most densely packed in urban areas and significantly older than Ugandans.* Doesn't take much to realize why Canadians would be more likely to die from covid than Ugandans.
> 
> Age is a major factor in covid deaths and people like pointing to Africa because of low immunization rate, but forget the fact that Africa has a very young population. The world’s 10 youngest populations are all in Africa
> 
> Edit: Should also point out that Uganda did have lockdowns: Uganda Imposes 42-Day COVID-19 Lockdown
> In fact, they were praised for their strict lockdown at the beginning on curbing covid: Uganda's tough approach curbs COVID, even as Africa nears 1 million cases
> And only recently opened up schools after 2 year lockdown: https://www.usnews.com/news/world/a...schools-reopen-ending-worlds-longest-lockdown
> 
> So maybe Uganda is the wrong counterpoint to Canada after all even taking into account demographics.


 ... I was going to add to that bolded part - that's like making a comparison between an apple and a mango. Both looks red when ripe, never mind about how accurate those numbers are coming out from Uganda.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> Let's look at what we know.
> 
> 
> We know Omicron is one of the most infectious viruses the planet has ever seen.
> We have evidence that BA2 is a little more infectious then BA1, but not more severe
> We know that the vaccines do not do much of a job to protect against infection
> The 3rd dose helps a little but it is very time sensitive and what we have been seeing is not much time at all. So lets just say that no one really has any protection from being infected by Omicron.
> Early evidence is showing that hospitalization precisely related to Omicron (backing out incidental infections) are not rising significantly.
> We know that lockdowns and restrictions just delay the future. They can't prevent it.
> We know natural infection provides a more robust protection and a different type of protection, since it provides IGA antibodies situated directly in our breathing tracks. Vaccines do not.
> 
> What this all adds up to is that @TomB16 is correct,* although I have been stating the same thing for many months now.* *The best course of action going forward, that has any possibility of success, that we have not actually tried already, is to drop precautions.* Obtain community exposure as quickly as we can, before our immunity from vaccine wanes to zero, and see where it all this goes.


 ... wasn't this tried in Denmark or was it Sweden? Did the infection rate there disappear?



> It is not really a choice, although many here seem to keep hanging on to the dream that we actually have an alternative. We are going there. The only choice we have is do we check out how this will work now or do we find out how all this all works later? Sometime in the future where our weather is probably colder, our vaccine immunity has declined some more and maybe a different variant becomes the option for exposure? *I say we go now.*


 ... who's "we"? How about you first, be my guest. I haven't been stopping anyone.

And speaking of the* red bolded* part above - natural infection just means survival of the fittest. If this virus is gonna to be tamed, ALL travel needs to be "banned" in ALL countries for a period of time so the infection is first localized or made "endemic". It'll be unfortunate the airline/travel-related industr(ies) will suffer or perhaps collapse. But this analogy is no different from cutting off a gangrene limb to stop the infection from killing the host.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> The new Omicron variant BA 2 is spreading rapidly. It is more infectious than the Omicron BA 1 variant.
> 
> Will it be different this time ? It sounds like it is a waiting game to find out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid cases are rising as omicron's 'stealth' subvariant spreads around the world
> 
> 
> Covid cases are rising in Europe with an increasing number attributed to a "stealth" subvariant of the omicron strain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CityNews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.citynews.ca


 ... we'll find out. 

If the hospitalisation numbers due to Covid go up, then I want Ontario's top doc FIRED!!!!


----------



## TomB16

bgc_fan said:


> And yet another person who doesn't know how to interpret data.


And yet another person who has no clue about vitamin D and it's role in the human immune system, as you made absolutely no mention of it with regard to these two countries that are closer to the equator than your citation of Canada.

I don't normally respond so aggressively so thank you for clearing the way. 




bgc_fan said:


> What's the median age in Uganda? 16.7 years, with a 25.7% urbanization rate.
> Let's compare to Canada. 41.1 years, with a 81.3% urbanization rate.


This comment is fair and well received. This, and the sun exposure, are why the UK approaches will be so interesting.



Have a great day.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... wasn't this tried in Denmark or was it Sweden? Did the infection rate there disappear?


Finland lifted COVID restrictions about a month ago.

Since then, there has been a small spike in death rate and a huge spike in arguing over how to report and interpret the death rate.

Basically, the idea of lifting restrictions is that everyone will get COVID. There will be exceptions like care homes, etc., but these will be small cocoons where precautions are used and they will try to prevent COVID as much as possible.

People die all the time. If everyone has COVID, the number of people dying with COVID will spike.

The argument of the pro-precaution people is the death rate spiked (albeit very briefly).

The argument of the anti-precaution people is: while the number of of people dying with COVID is up, the total number of people dying is within normal levels.

My impression is that more study is needed to draw a conclusion but it does appear the off ramp to this roller coaster is to remove restrictions.


----------



## TomB16

Here is something that might trigger ad hominem attacks from OptsyEagle and/or bgc_fan. lol!

No problem. Let's enjoy a vigorous discussion!

There is some data that suggests, in some areas, COVID restrictions saved more lives from non-COVID deaths than COVID has caused. So, people are dying from COVID but more people are _not dying_ from other activities like DUI, sports, etc. (dangerous activities curbed by COVID restrictions). The result being less people dying over all, at least in some places.

Overall, the death rate spiked under COVID. This effect is localized.

Partiers should note the areas where COVID was less lethal than regular carrying on and go to these places, once restrictions are lifted (This means you: Doug Ford).


----------



## HappilyRetired

TomB16 said:


> Here is something that might trigger ad hominem attacks from OptsyEagle and/or bgc_fan. lol!
> 
> No problem. Let's enjoy a vigorous discussion!
> 
> There is some data that suggests, in some areas, COVID restrictions saved more lives from non-COVID deaths than COVID has caused. So, people are dying from COVID but more people are _not dying_ from other activities like DUI, sports, etc. (dangerous activities curbed by COVID restrictions). The result being less people dying over all, at least in some places.
> 
> Overall, the death rate spiked under COVID. This effect is localized.
> 
> Partiers should note the areas where COVID was less lethal than regular carrying on and go to these places, once restrictions are lifted (This means you: Doug Ford).


There hasn't been a full accounting done for all the fatalities that resulted from missed doctor visits and cancer screenings. And many of those deaths are still to come and will be for years.


----------



## TomB16

Pre-arrival COVID testing now lifted for air travel into Canada.


----------



## bgc_fan

TomB16 said:


> And yet another person who has no clue about vitamin D and it's role in the human immune system, as you made absolutely no mention of it with regard to these two countries that are closer to the equator than your citation of Canada.
> 
> I don't normally respond so aggressively so thank you for clearing the way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This comment is fair and well received. This, and the sun exposure, are why the UK approaches will be so interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> Have a great day.


That's fine, I mean your responses in this thread has shown that you don't have any consideration in understanding some of the basic factors in covid. I just want to make sure others in the thread realize that you don't know what you are talking about.

As for vitamin D: Vitamin D may not protect against COVID, as previously suggested


----------



## sags

Is there any evidence that previous covid infection produces any durable natural immunity from catching the same virus or a variant again ?


----------



## sags

From what I have read about the new BA2 variant is that it is 80% more infectious than the Omicron variant and that means that many people who have avoided infection thus far will end up getting infected with this variant of the virus. The rate of infection combined with the relaxing of safety measures make it a statistical certainty.


----------



## TomB16

bgc_fan said:


> I just want to make sure others in the thread realize that you don't know what you are talking about.


Indeed.

I am pleased to roll around in the mud and get as personal as you wish. I certainly will make zero effort to unilaterally disarm, on that front. So, let's ratchet this up.


I was suggesting vax and infect appears to be the path forward well before Optsy posted about it, this morning.

This is where revising history comes in handy, although the forum database can be a pesky hindrance in this regard.


Time will tell who is right. I do not assert that I am correct, I am sharing the best data I have found and it conflicts with some of the message coming from Canadian healthcare. So far, I have been doing quite well. I have also pointed out that I have been following the protocols as guided. The point being, restrictions only work if we all do them. I do them, despite not believing in the program, because I am a good citizen.

In the future, you may wish to conduct yourself with a bit more class. Personal attacks aren't all that compelling, in a forum environment. People are pretty smart at seeing what is what.

Please have a nice day.


----------



## OptsyEagle

TomB16 said:


> Here is something that might trigger ad hominem attacks from OptsyEagle and/or bgc_fan. lol!
> 
> No problem. Let's enjoy a vigorous discussion!
> 
> There is some data that suggests, in some areas, COVID restrictions saved more lives from non-COVID deaths than COVID has caused. So, people are dying from COVID but more people are _not dying_ from other activities like DUI, sports, etc. (dangerous activities curbed by COVID restrictions). The result being less people dying over all, at least in some places.
> 
> Overall, the death rate spiked under COVID. This effect is localized.
> 
> Partiers should note the areas where COVID was less lethal than regular carrying on and go to these places, once restrictions are lifted (This means you: Doug Ford).


Why would I attack that. I only attack a post when it is wrong. Your posts on the data published via court order to the FDA, were wrong. Telling a poster their posts are wrong is not a post against the poster. It is a post against the material in the post.

You need to stop taking this personally and just focus on the post. If I recall in my last post I said you were right. I hold no grudges. Just don't attack me personally like you did with that comment above and we will get along fine.


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> There is some data that suggests, in some areas, COVID restrictions saved more lives from non-COVID deaths than COVID has caused. So, people are dying from COVID but more people are _not dying_ from other activities like DUI, sports, etc. (dangerous activities curbed by COVID restrictions). The result being less people dying over all, at least in some places.


Absolutely, and if we all stay in our houses, don't go anywhere, don't interact with people, we will have fewer deaths, particularly accidental deaths. At least in the short term.

However we'll get less done, mental illness problems and domestic abuse will get worse, and our overall quality of life will suffer. Long term, being locked in our houses doing nothing for years would be disasterous, plus most people don't want to live that way.


----------



## OptsyEagle

TomB16 said:


> I was suggesting vax and infect appears to be the path forward well before Optsy posted about it, this morning.


Is that what this is all about. You want credit alone for that idea. Just click on my name and go back over my posts and you will see many, many posts saying the same darn thing, starting sometime in January. 

Let's not argue over who came up with an idea. Let's just focus on the idea and how we can make it work for the people reading these posts.


----------



## andrewf

Looks like another wave is kicking off in Europe. A preview of what is coming to Canada as masking and distancing rules are rapidly rolled back.









New Covid-19 Coronavirus Wave In Europe May Have Already Begun, Data Suggests


With the BA.2 Omicron “Stealth variant” spreading and Covid-19 precautions being lifted, conditions may be ripe for yet another Covid-19 upswing in the U.S. as well.




www.forbes.com


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> Here is Afganistan, where the vaccination rate is also 11%
> 
> View attachment 22961
> 
> 
> 
> The point is not that vaccination is bad. The point is that vaccination is no way substitute for the immunity generated by natural infection.
> 
> To me, the best outcome appears to be vaccination to improve survivability followed closely by natural infection (of Omicron) to produce lasting immunity but during the vaccination efficacy period.
> 
> Because of this, countries which are either cavalier about or have inadequate health care have reached endemicity already while countries trying to avoid infection are perpetuating the virus.


Maybe the data for Afghanistan is not great. Just maybe.

The data is Canada is pretty suspect given varying access to testing resources. 1 reported case translating to x total cases, where that multiple has varied wildly over time.


----------



## TomB16

OptsyEagle said:


> You need to stop taking this personally and just focus on the post. If I recall in my last post I said you were right. Go figure.


I have been mostly ignoring your posts, as per our non-communication agreement that you did not honor.




OptsyEagle said:


> Let's just not exchange. I think I have concluded you have nothing but suspicion to offer. I am suspicious enough so I will leave you to your quest. Good luck.


Your very next posts, five posts later, cited me in a derogatory way.



OptsyEagle said:


> If you or Tom had of read the vaccine trial reports you would at least know that the stuff the people talk about in the above video is simply incorrect. [snip]


I had you on ignore for a couple of days but noticed in quoted responses to you that you continue to cite me in derogatory fashion.


There is no need to conduct yourself like a beligerant *******.

Many others have disagreed with me and I have treated them with respect. This suggests my social skills are well beyond your own. Many others have also exhibited an ability to discuss this topic without getting personal. If we could all be civil, the idea exchange would be to the betterment of everyone.

Please, stop citing me in your posts. Cite my data, links, or ideas all you want but leave my name out of it and, seriously, consider cooling your heels on the personal attacks. This includes on the investment sections of this web site. I enjoy arguing so I am pleased to continue how we are but I suspect other people will appreciate a reduction in hostile energy.

Thank you in advance for your consideration.


----------



## bgc_fan

TomB16 said:


> Indeed.
> 
> I am pleased to roll around in the mud and get as personal as you wish. I certainly will make zero effort to unilaterally disarm, on that front. So, let's ratchet this up.
> 
> 
> I was suggesting vax and infect appears to be the path forward well before Optsy posted about it, this morning.
> 
> This is where revising history comes in handy, although the forum database can be a pesky hindrance in this regard.
> 
> 
> Time will tell who is right. I do not assert that I am correct, I am sharing the best data I have found and it conflicts with some of the message coming from Canadian healthcare. So far, I have been doing quite well. I have also pointed out that I have been following the protocols as guided. The point being, restrictions only work if we all do them. I do them, despite not believing in the program, because I am a good citizen.
> 
> In the future, you may wish to conduct yourself with a bit more class. Personal attacks aren't all that compelling, in a forum environment. People are pretty smart at seeing what is what.
> 
> Please have a nice day.


Well, I mean you don't even do some basic research to back up your assertions, but like to just spit out data with no context and make a conclusion. So I treat the people who treat facts the same way. 

For example, let's build upon your vitamin D assertion, would it shock you to find out that Africa has a high percentage of vitamin D deficient people?


DEFINE_ME


.
Or the fact that Peru, just touching the equator has the highest covid rate in the world?








Tracking Covid-19’s global spread


Since December 2019, the disease has spread to every continent and case numbers continue to rise




edition.cnn.com


----------



## OptsyEagle

TomB16 said:


> seriously, consider cooling your heels on the personal attacks.
> 
> 
> There is no need to conduct yourself like a beligerant *****.


I will continue to debate any post that is wrong. There were no personal attacks, you just took it that way. If you don't want to be notified, that is fine with me. I did that out of courtesy.

By the way, you really are doing a good job keeping the own personal attacks down. Glad I did not experience what you do to a poster when you are angry with them.


----------



## TomB16

bgc_fan said:


> Well, I mean you don't even do some basic research to back up your assertions, but like to just spit out data with no context and make a conclusion. So I treat the people who treat facts the same way.


Just as Russia justifies their attack of Ukraine, you attempt to justify your attack. I quoted you above for posterity.

I am only interested in contesting your data when you attack and/or are likely to be wrong. When that happens, I will be as savage as you are. For the most part, however, I shall continue to ignore you unless you cite me in a derogatory fashion and include myopic data.

Please have a nice day.


----------



## TomB16

OptsyEagle said:


> I will continue to debate any post that is wrong. There were no personal attacks, you just took it that way.


I have quoted some of the relevant pieces. People can judge for themselves.




OptsyEagle said:


> If you don't want to be notified, that is fine with me. I did that out of courtesy.


Please tone down the courtesy. lol!


----------



## OptsyEagle

Calm down Tom. This is just a message board. Let's get back to covid and do try to take criticism with the grain of salt it requires. No one likes it but everyone does require a little of it from time to time. I am no exception. Your points on moving forward are good. Let's talk about that.


----------



## bgc_fan

TomB16 said:


> Just as Russia justifies their attack of Ukraine, you attempt to justify your attack. I quoted you above for posterity.
> 
> I am only interested in contesting your data when you attack and/or are likely to be wrong. When that happens, I will be as savage as you are. For the most part, however, I shall continue to ignore you unless you cite me in a derogatory fashion and include myopic data.
> 
> Please have a nice day.


Cool, so you have no response or anything to add. I remember why I was ignoring your messages.


----------



## TomB16

You are clearly unable to stop posting directly to me. OK. That is fair game.




OptsyEagle said:


> Calm down Tom. This is just a message board.


lol!

This message forum has a few gunned up jerks making civil discourse difficult. I am effecting positive change here for everyone. What's more, I am doing so in a civil and direct fashion. My conduct elevates this forum and I will do everything in my power to continue to make sure this is the case.



Let me bring you up to speed on civilized behavior. See if you can spot the difference:

1) "You don't know what you are talking about. <blah blah blah>"

2) "Data sources I consider to be the best available suggest otherwise. <cite>"


A child of 10 should have no problem indicating which response is civil and which is not.



Consider this: you have written on two occasions that I have not read the Pfizer or FDA studies. This, after I have posted links, quotes, data use agreement document (Pfizer), and opinions on the scope of their data. Your response was an ad hominem attack (I have quoted the relevant passages for posterity, if anyone wishes to scroll back). ... and yet, I continue to be civil to you. That, Mr. Eagle, is how dignified people conduct themselves.

My posts are a demonstration of calmness. Yours have been critical and derogatory. Let's let forum readers decide who is calm and who is not.

Just because I will not tolerate being attacked does not mean I am out of line. Perhaps the guy holding a club dripping with blood ought to accept more of the responsibility for the incident?


----------



## TomB16

bgc_fan said:


> Cool, so you have no response or anything to add. I remember why I was ignoring your messages.


I have a perspective on your post but chose not to share it. I don't have to contradict every post that does not fit into my perspective or that I think is incorrect. You may find the reason why interesting: because I am a civilized human being.

Lack of response is not a declaration of agreement. It might be, however, you don't know that. You are only aware of the position I choose to share.


I've shared interesting data and links. Two people have attacked me for these posts. You and OptsyEagle.

You are acting like a 6 year old.

How about posting your own position? How about sharing information that informs, instead of criticizing?

There is no need for us to agree with each other to have a gainful discussion.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Is there any evidence that previous covid infection produces any durable natural immunity from catching the same virus or a variant again ?


 ... if there were, then there wouldn't be any long haulers or long Covid problems. See attached.

'Complete change in our quality of life': Long COVID a burden for many Canadians

And those thinking of just let nature takes it course now hasn't seen (aka fully consider) the other side of the long term effects ... dying is the easy part.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Absolutely, and if we all stay in our houses, don't go anywhere, don't interact with people, we will have fewer deaths, particularly accidental deaths. At least in the short term.
> 
> However we'll get less done, mental illness problems and domestic abuse will get worse, and our overall quality of life will suffer. Long term, being locked in our houses doing nothing for years would be disasterous, plus most people don't want to live that way.


 ... you might want to complain to these folks about your mental problems (and now include domestic abuse? ) from your "self-imposed cabin fever (aka exaggerated lock-up)" versus theirs after acquiring Covid.

'Complete change in our quality of life': Long COVID a burden for many Canadians

Btw, since you feel so having been "locked up" - has your employer mandated you to return in-person to the office? Bet not.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> Looks like another wave is kicking off in Europe. A preview of what is coming to Canada as masking and distancing rules are rapidly rolled back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Covid-19 Coronavirus Wave In Europe May Have Already Begun, Data Suggests
> 
> 
> With the BA.2 Omicron “Stealth variant” spreading and Covid-19 precautions being lifted, conditions may be ripe for yet another Covid-19 upswing in the U.S. as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com


 ... well, well, well ... and March break (for Ontario) hasn't even ended yet.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... if there were, then there wouldn't be any long haulers or long Covid problems. See attached.
> 
> 'Complete change in our quality of life': Long COVID a burden for many Canadians
> 
> And those thinking of just let nature takes it course now hasn't seen (aka fully consider) the other side of the long term effects ... dying is the easy part.


Your position is generally fair but I would suggest tremendous immunity has been demonstrated, post recovery. This immunity is lower with variants.

Even the vaccine, designed on the Wuhan version of the virus, seems to provide some protection against omicron.

I believe what you are seeing is that immunity is not perfect. There have been some reinfections, even from the same variant. The mistake, I would contend, is concluding that reinfections are proof of no immunity.

I had the original Wuhan virus in January 2020 and also had Omicron in January 2022. There was a slight difference, however. The original COVID infection felt like it almost killed me while Omicron was a dry cough for about three days.


----------



## TomB16

Western Australia just opened up from lock down. They are 81% vaccinated. 50% of hospitalizations are unvaccinated people.

So, 20% of the population makes up 50% of hospitalisations.

It would be nice if we had data on the age of vaccinations. Specifically, if the vaccinated patients were immunized over 6 months ago, booster status, etc. There is likely a pattern there.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Your position is generally fair but I would suggest tremendous immunity has been demonstrated, post recovery. This immunity is lower with variants.
> 
> Even the vaccine, designed on the Wuhan version of the virus, seems to provide some protection against omicron.
> 
> I believe what you are seeing is that immunity is not perfect. There have been some reinfections, even from the same variant. * The mistake, I would contend, is concluding that reinfections are proof of no immunity.*
> 
> I had the original Wuhan virus in January 2020 and also had Omicron in January 2022. There was a slight difference, however. The original COVID infection felt like it almost killed me while Omicron was a dry cough for about three days.


 ... I wasn't saying that nor making an assumption there.

I was trying to answer sag's question based on that news article which provided evidence that there're "long haul" effects from Covid. Which then tells me there isn't a "durable" "natural" immunity to re-infection by same said-disease, let alone a durable vaxxed immunity. Ie. it works similar to the flu - it just doesn't die, just get passed around at every opportunity until it evolves into something stronger or more infectious (which can be deadlier too) in which case we can get another wave or pandemic.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> Check out what Canada looks like, for all of our masking and shut downs.


What we achieved was one of the lowest per capita death rates in the developed world. Canada's response to covid was very successful.

Just ask the Americans with their 3x death rate. Horrendous what happened in the US, and Europe.

If you want to see how well Canada did, you need to chart our waves (such as deaths) against other countries on a per capita basis. We should all be thankful that we weren't living in the America or Europe, where many more people died.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Pcr or antigen? Getting an antigen test is pretty easy in ontario. $40 at shoppers and Costco is also starting them at $17.
> 
> There are also free tests available in short supply.


Any kind of test! I'd happily get a PCR or antigen, if it's available.

I'm under age 40 and in BC, I can't get free tests. If I was over 40, starting today I believe I could get a pack of 5 rapid tests.

Some provinces like AB, MB, ON always had cheap tests like those rapid tests at pharmacies. BC however never had this... they were always over $100 a pop.

If anyone knows how I can get tested for covid in BC, please let me know. I'm about to visit my parents and I think it would be helpful to know if I'm carrying covid. I think it's kind of shocking that I can't do this unless I'm willing to pay > $100 to a private lab.



MrMatt said:


> Here rapid tests are easily available for free. Who doesn't offer free testing? That seems kind of dumb.


Even for young people? BC doesn't have free covid testing for people under 40. Considering the younger pop is working the front lines, and is most actively socializing, I think that's pretty stupid. The commies in the USA have the right idea with their government subsidized testing.

Good to hear that you're benefiting from Ford's commie policies too.


----------



## bgc_fan

TomB16 said:


> I have a perspective on your post but chose not to share it. I don't have to contradict every post that does not fit into my perspective or that I think is incorrect. You may find the reason why interesting: because I am a civilized human being.
> 
> Lack of response is not a declaration of agreement. It might be, however, you don't know that. You are only aware of the position I choose to share.
> 
> 
> I've shared interesting data and links. Two people have attacked me for these posts. You and OptsyEagle.
> 
> You are acting like a 6 year old.
> 
> How about posting your own position? How about sharing information that informs, instead of criticizing?
> 
> There is no need for us to agree with each other to have a gainful discussion.


No, lack of response indicates that you don't have a response. The whole point of a discussion is to discuss different viewpoints and bring arguments and facts to the table. If you don't do that, I just assume you don't have a clue because that's the easiest assumption based on lack of response.

Let's sum up.

You assert that Uganda covid death rates are better than Canada without doing anything, and that doing nothing is the possibly the right solution, with NO facts other than posting the covid death rates.

I point out that demographics and population density are going to be major factors in covid deaths and provide the actual data to back it up. As well as the fact that Uganda did lockdown hard during the pandemic.

You cry foul and say you are hurt that you are attacked and I didn't say anything about Vitamin D.

I respond with a study that shows that vitamin D provides no indication for covid success, as well as the fact that vitamin D deficiency is relatively high in Africa.

Basically, you cry ad hominem because I point out that you haven't posted anything of substance in the whole exchange. No data, no studies, just a lot of hurt feelings.

My position has always been clear: vaccines work and are responsible for decreased death rates.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Any kind of test! I'd happily get a PCR or antigen, if it's available.
> 
> I'm under age 40 and in BC, I can't get free tests. If I was over 40, starting today I believe I could get a pack of 5 rapid tests.
> 
> Some provinces like AB, MB, ON always had cheap tests like those rapid tests at pharmacies. BC however never had this... they were always over $100 a pop.
> 
> If anyone knows how I can get tested for covid in BC, please let me know. I'm about to visit my parents and I think it would be helpful to know if I'm carrying covid. I think it's kind of shocking that I can't do this unless I'm willing to pay > $100 to a private lab.
> 
> 
> 
> Even for young people? BC doesn't have free covid testing for people under 40. Considering the younger pop is working the front lines, and is most actively socializing, I think that's pretty stupid. The commies in the USA have the right idea with their government subsidized testing.
> 
> Good to hear that you're benefiting from Ford's commie policies too.


rapid tests are available for anyone in ontario. Some are free, if you can get your hands on one. Or pay $17-$40 at Costco or shoppers.

I looked up BC. It says you pick up a test for your parents if you provide their info. All is fair in love, war and pandemics.






Where to get a COVID-19 test in BC


Information on where to find rapid antigen tests, PCR tests and private testing clinics.




www.bccdc.ca





*Pick up a kit for someone else*
You can pick up a kit for someone else, like a parent or grandparent. Make sure you know their full name, date of birth and PHN, the pharmacist will ask you for that information.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> *Pick up a kit for someone else*
> You can pick up a kit for someone else, like a parent or grandparent. Make sure you know their full name, date of birth and PHN, the pharmacist will ask you for that information.


Thanks! This didn't occur to me. Appreciate the pointer.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Also @james4beach keep in mind that those rapid tests are not very sensitive. Unless you have symptoms, and probably 2nd day or more of symptoms, they usually come back negative...even if you are positive.

There are really two ways to use these rapid tests, in my opinion. 

1) If what you want to know is if what is currently making you sick is covid-19, then wait until the 2nd day of symptoms minimum, to take the test and keep taking them until you get better or you get a positive result.

2) If what you want to know is that you are not infectious to others, it will not give you the perfect answer you want. A negative result will not confirm that you do not have covid-19 BUT it will confirm that the viral load you possess is not overly large and most likely you won't be shedding a large dangerous load to someone else. Each box comes with 5 tests. So keep testing. Test before you go, test the next day and test the next day, etc. until you leave. That is about the best those tests can do.


----------



## Money172375

And take Samples from the mouth and nose.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Any kind of test! I'd happily get a PCR or antigen, if it's available.
> 
> I'm under age 40 and in BC, I can't get free tests. If I was over 40, starting today I believe I could get a pack of 5 rapid tests.


They're literally giving them away for free at Walmart.
What did BC do with their tests? Lock them away from the people most likely to spread COVID19?



> Good to hear that you're benefiting from Ford's commie policies too.


Not aware of any commie policies, sure he's a bit pro-union, but I can accept that as a political necessity, since government unions are a very powerful force here.


----------



## TomB16

bgc_fan said:


> No, lack of response indicates that you don't have a response.


Incorrect.

I am under no obligation to respond to you under any circumstance. You have no authority over me.

Also, you don't speak for me. You are not authorized as a proxy to put words into my mouth. I'm not in need of this service and, if I was, I would not choose you since you are clearly a moron.


The following is quoted for posterity, so you can't delete it.



bgc_fan said:


> No, lack of response indicates that you don't have a response. The whole point of a discussion is to discuss different viewpoints and bring arguments and facts to the table. If you don't do that, I just assume you don't have a clue because that's the easiest assumption based on lack of response.
> 
> Let's sum up.
> 
> You assert that Uganda covid death rates are better than Canada without doing anything, and that doing nothing is the possibly the right solution, with NO facts other than posting the covid death rates.
> 
> I point out that demographics and population density are going to be major factors in covid deaths and provide the actual data to back it up. As well as the fact that Uganda did lockdown hard during the pandemic.
> 
> You cry foul and say you are hurt that you are attacked and I didn't say anything about Vitamin D.
> 
> I respond with a study that shows that vitamin D provides no indication for covid success, as well as the fact that vitamin D deficiency is relatively high in Africa.
> 
> Basically, you cry ad hominem because I point out that you haven't posted anything of substance in the whole exchange. No data, no studies, just a lot of hurt feelings.
> 
> My position has always been clear: vaccines work and are responsible for decreased death rates.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> Also @james4beach keep in mind that those rapid tests are not very sensitive. Unless you have symptoms, and probably 2nd day or more of symptoms, they usually come back negative...even if you are positive.


Yes I do realize the tests are of limited value. In particular, rapid tests can never tell you that you're covid-free. They can only be used to confirm that you *do* have covid.

A negative result is practically meaningless. Or maybe better to say, you don't learn any new information when you see a negative result.


----------



## bgc_fan

TomB16 said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> I am under no obligation to respond to you under any circumstance. You have no authority over me.
> 
> Also, you don't speak for me. You are not authorized as a proxy to put words into my mouth. I'm not in need of this service and, if I was, I would not choose you since you are clearly a moron.
> 
> 
> The following is quoted for posterity, so you can't delete it.


That's fine, I'm not going to delete it. There's nothing there that I'm ashamed of. But if you don't want to debate things, you know, discuss opposing views, I don't even know why you bother posting.

As for moron, I think you are projecting. After all, I'm not the one who posted this:



TomB16 said:


> Pfizer released *a couple of* statistics from the first three months of case study of their vaccine. They did this under court order and they appear to have obfuscated as much as possible (with some redaction and a custom written document to fulfill the court order).
> 
> There were 1223 "vaccine related" deaths in the first three months of the vaccine trial. They do not indicate how many doses were given. This is now on the public record.


Except the report covered dates after they had completed their vaccine trials, and was during a time frame when hundreds of millions of doses were administered. But yeah, I'm the one who doesn't know what is going on.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> Well, I mean you don't even do some basic research to back up your assertions, but like to just spit out data with no context and make a conclusion. So I treat the people who treat facts the same way.
> 
> For example, let's build upon your vitamin D assertion, would it shock you to find out that Africa has a high percentage of vitamin D deficient people?
> 
> 
> DEFINE_ME
> 
> 
> .
> Or the fact that Peru, just touching the equator has the highest covid rate in the world?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tracking Covid-19’s global spread
> 
> 
> Since December 2019, the disease has spread to every continent and case numbers continue to rise
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edition.cnn.com


That's because of the way Peru counts deaths. If you get omicron today, and die for whatever reason in next *60 days* you will be counted as COVID death in Peru.
For comparison: In UK if you get omicron today, and die for whatever reason in next *30 days *you will be counted as COVID deaths.

Some countries count death as COVID if its within 14 days. Some count it only if you were hospitalized for it.

There are countries who give financial incentives to count death as covid. They are countries that don't. So without knowing what methodology the countries you are comparing use, the comparison is completely useless.

You can also look at excess deaths. Just check out excess deaths in Canada among young people --> very scary


----------



## sags

I doubt that if a person gets hit by a bus and happens to have had covid in the past, they count it as a death caused by covid.


----------



## sags

The new Omicron 2 variant is spreading rapidly and becoming the dominant strain of infection globally including the US and Canada.

Thus far the major concern is for older people who received the booster shot early. They will need a second booster shot to restore their immunity level.

The rapid spread of this new variant highlights the danger that as long as the covid virus is spreading the more likely there will be new variants.

We are dodging the bullet so far but the variants just keep coming.









Omicron BA.2 subvariant becoming dominant, representing potential risk


“We are moving from a BA.1 wave to a BA.2 wave."




ottawacitizen.com


----------



## bgc_fan

In other news, it looks like WHO is pausing its approval of the Medicago vaccine due to the fact that Philip Morris owns a portion of the company. Still approved in Canada, but not likely going to be that useful if other countries aren't going to recognize it.








WHO pauses approval of Quebec's Medicago COVID-19 vaccine due to tobacco industry ties


A World Health Organization official said a COVID-19 vaccine developed by a Quebec pharmaceutical firm will 'very likely' not be approved for emergency use due to the company's links to cigarette maker Philip Morris International.




montreal.ctvnews.ca


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> We are dodging the bullet so far but the variants just keep coming.


Which is EXACTLY what coronaviruses have been doing for the last ten thousand years.

Now, you have to ask yourself, what about a virus would enable it to thrive for millennia?
Maybe constantly evolving to evade immunities in the host species?


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> ...
> 
> Not aware of any commie policies, sure he's a bit pro-union, but I can accept that as a political necessity, since government unions are a very powerful force here.


 ... since when was Ford pro-union? I would agree with the political necessity since a provincial election is coming up and he wants his crown retained. The "free, courtesy of Ontario taxpayers" RATs are nothing but a (illusional) bribe (a mini one to me).


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> I doubt that if a person gets hit by a bus and happens to have had covid in the past, they count it as a death caused by covid.


 ... still wouldn't make up for the under-estimate/reporting of deaths actually due to Covid. This reply is for post #1533 also however, you cut and dice it.


----------



## Beaver101

bgc_fan said:


> In other news, it looks like WHO is pausing its approval of the Medicago vaccine due to the fact that Philip Morris owns a portion of the company. *Still approved in Canada, but not likely going to be that useful if other countries aren't going to recognize it.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHO pauses approval of Quebec's Medicago COVID-19 vaccine due to tobacco industry ties
> 
> 
> A World Health Organization official said a COVID-19 vaccine developed by a Quebec pharmaceutical firm will 'very likely' not be approved for emergency use due to the company's links to cigarette maker Philip Morris International.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montreal.ctvnews.ca


 ... duh.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Which is EXACTLY what coronaviruses have been doing for the last ten thousand years.
> 
> Now, you have to ask yourself, what about a virus would enable it to thrive for millennia?
> Maybe constantly evolving to evade immunities in the host species?


 ... so what do you propose? For the masses, white flag up? 

For the younger population, oh well we stucked with it. Let's party-on. [Notice the expertise there.]

For the older population -tough luck, you're gonna die anyways.

For the middle-age/inbetweeners, scrxw everyone else. Who gives a crxp. It's me, me, me, myself, myself, myself, I, I and I first.


----------



## KaeJS

Look at this complete nonsense:









Province-wide walk out planned for Ontario schools on Monday


The province-wide walkout is set for the day students return from March break




www.guelphtoday.com





What a joke.


----------



## Plugging Along

KaeJS said:


> Look at this complete nonsense:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Province-wide walk out planned for Ontario schools on Monday
> 
> 
> The province-wide walkout is set for the day students return from March break
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.guelphtoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a joke.


Regardless if I personally agree with the walk out reasons, I actually think its important for young people to exercise their right for peaceful protest. If students feel unsafe, they have every right to stage a protest. They need a voice too. I am sure they will be less disruptive as they won't be using their vehicle to block traffic, nor honking really loud horns. 

I think our youth have been pushed aside for the last couple of years. They have been imposed upon perhaps more than other groups. So if they want to protest on what they want, let them. I would feel the same way for youth that want to protest the other side.


----------



## TomB16

I've been studying COVID since day 1, trying to stay on top of it, partially for global finance reasons. It's been surprising how far behind public health policy has been from the research, just about everywhere.

If Omicron is as unstoppable as I believe and it appears to be, China is going to continue to cause horrendous supply chain issues with their massive scale lock downs. They will probably also brew up another variant. At this point, the correct approach appears to be vax and infect so it will be interesting to watch Finland over the next couple of weeks.

Business leaders all seem to indicate we about through supply chain issues but I don't see how we can get past them for another three months, or so, unless China changes their COVID protocol.

Tesla is currently under a brief shutdown in Shanghai but it will undoubtedly be extended and the problem will grow. They have been minimally affected in the past but I think even Fremont will be impacted by supply issues in the near future.

Ford is now selling the Explorer without a rear HVAC system due to lack of availability of components and that is not their only struggling program.

GM has been heavily impacted by supply chain issues.

For now, I keep my powder dry while China handles Omicron like the Wuhan variant but I am ready for an opportunity between now and June when the problem is essentially dealt with.


----------



## sags

It has been a couple of weeks since the government opened up retirement homes to visitors and the wife's workplace now has several covid residents.

So now all the residents have to be tested, and the workers have to "gown up" and treat infected residents as "isolation rooms".

It is a lot of extra work for the staff and expense for the retirement home owner. The other residents aren't impressed as it may mean in room dining again.

The home is already short staffed and having difficulty finding anyone to work. Outbreaks make it more difficult to attract staff.

The politicians keep making the same mistakes over and over and over and expecting a different result.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> It has been a couple of weeks since the government opened up retirement homes to visitors and the wife's workplace now has several covid residents.
> 
> So now all the residents have to be tested, and the workers have to "gown up" and treat infected residents as "isolation rooms".
> 
> *It is a lot of extra work for the staff and expense for the retirement home owner. The other residents aren't impressed as it may mean in room dining again.
> 
> The home is already short staffed and having difficulty finding anyone to work. Outbreaks make it more difficult to attract staff.*
> 
> The politicians keep making the same mistakes over and over and over and expecting a different result.


 .. I wonder who'll be paying for those additional expenses 'cause someone misses grandpa/grandma so much that they need to bring in something extra or take him/her out for a trip as an extra.


----------



## sags

Yikes.......









St. Patrick's Day: 'Go big or go home' attitude for many


With nearly all COVID-19 restrictions lifted, Londoners celebrated the first St. Patrick’s Day in three years without capacity limits at bars and restaurants…




lfpress.com


----------



## james4beach

Bloomberg article on the US starting to awaken to the threat of growing European cases (new wave)



> The U.S. could soon see Covid-19 cases rise again and vulnerable people are likely to need a fourth vaccine dose, one of President Joe Biden’s top health advisers warned as the White House calls for more money to fight the pandemic.
> 
> Anthony Fauci, the longtime head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and a Biden adviser, *said U.K. officials are already warning him of an increase there driven by the BA.2 sub-variant, easing restrictions and waning protection from vaccines, and that the U.S. tends to be a few weeks behind case curves in the U.K.*


Fauci also says that the booster likely only offers protection for 4-5 months.

The new wave is likely to start in the US -- and that means Ontario & Quebec by the way -- within a few weeks. So the cases are going to start rising again, and hospital loads will also increase. The noteworthy thing here is that hospital loads may start to increase once the vaccination benefit wanes.

Mandatory masks will likely have to come back at some point, as mentioned in the article.

It's a mistake to relax all these restrictions and eliminate masks and capacity limits. I've been saying it for a month now. It's pretty obvious what comes next; we've been through this before.


----------



## TomB16

Glad I have omicron protection.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> Glad I have omicron protection.


Do you mean because you caught it? Certainly that gives you immunity for a while but the research suggests that immunity is not durable. Probably 3-6 months of immunity, which will wear off around the start of winter. So I hope you continue to be careful in the fall and winter, wear a mask etc, to not spread it around to other people.


----------



## TomB16

I have not seen that research. The data I subscribe to suggests long term immunity so I snicker at your little pandemic wave.


----------



## TomB16

I have been thinking about how brutal the Wuhan variant was for my wife and I, as well as what a non-issue Omicron was. We barely knew we had anything with Omicron.

What follows is conjecture but attack and denigration are welcome and expected. 

I suspect the first cold infection in humans was brutal, tore through the population, and killed a lot of people. Those who had a humoral response and survived, would have moved on with immunity. From there, the cold virus evolved. People who survived the original infection probably had no reaction or perhaps a mucosal response to variants that followed.

How do we know Wuhan COVID was worse than the original cold, before herd immunity was generated with the first exposures to the cold virus? Perhaps these two virus posed a similar danger?

At some point in the future, COVID will become another cold variant, associated with minor symptoms like dry cough.

At this point, with most of the global population carrying natural immunity, it's difficult to think there is value in shutting down the global economy.

We spent the afternoon going to car dealerships, listening to them explain to us there are no cars available and orders will take 6 to 10 months, depending on model. All of the brands we looked at were in the same situation. All because China wants to stop a cold from spreading through their population.

As brilliant as China was handling the Wuhan and Delta variants, this may be time for them to consider a change. It's a shame establishments are so resistant to change.

On the positive side, I'd like to see a lot of manufacturing return to North America. This has been a great impetus for that. It doesn't make sense to re-shore all of it but anything that can be produced with a substantially mechanized process (not labour intensive) should be produced a lot closer to where the products are consumed. One day, we will look back on the shipping of this era and think it is ridiculous and wasteful to produce a paper N95 mask in one place and ship it half way around the world where it is used.


----------



## HappilyRetired

TomB16 said:


> As brilliant as China was handling the Wuhan and Delta variants, this may be time for them to consider a change. It's a shame establishments are so resistant to change.


Brilliant? Do you really believe the media reports about China? They can't even report facts in Canada and the US.


----------



## MK7GTI

People are still talking about covid? Everything is opening up and people are moving on with their lives expect for that last 5%. Even our tiny little island of Yellowknife is opening up on April.1. Can't come soon enough.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I have not seen that research. The data I subscribe to suggests long term immunity so I snicker at your little pandemic wave.


 ... define "long term" immunity. See response to your next post.


----------



## Beaver101

MK7GTI said:


> People are still talking about covid? Everything is opening up and people are moving on with their lives expect for that last 5%. Even our tiny little island of Yellowknife is opening up on April.1. Can't come soon enough.


 ... the majority of the population doesn't live in Yellowknife nor wish to. In fact, the majority of Canada wants to live further south, as close to the equator as possible.


----------



## sags

The news is now focusing more on the new BA2 variant spreading rapidly all over the world.

Infections, hospitalizations, ICU cases and deaths are rising again. It looks like another massive wave of the virus is building.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I have been thinking about how brutal the Wuhan variant was for my wife and I, as well as what a non-issue Omicron was. We barely knew we had anything with Omicron.
> 
> What follows is conjecture but attack and denigration are welcome and expected.
> 
> *I suspect the first cold infection in humans was brutal*, tore through the population, and killed a lot of people. Those who had a humoral response and survived, would have moved on with immunity. From there, the cold virus evolved. People who survived the original infection probably had no reaction or perhaps a mucosal response to variants that followed.


 ... you're talking about the history of a "cold", what happened to the "flu" that followed?



> *How do we know Wuhan COVID was worse than the original cold*, before herd immunity was generated with the first exposures to the cold virus? Perhaps these two virus posed a similar danger?


 ... re bolded part - you don't since we don't have any stats from the "original" cold. If you want to make a good comparison, how about the "death" stats (rates) from Covid? With the "death" rate from the Spanish "flu"? Mind you population growth will produce more deaths so maybe a rate may be more accurate.



> At some point in the future, COVID will become another cold variant, associated with minor symptoms like dry cough.


 ... big MAYBE but unlikely. Did SARs become another "cold/flu"?



> At this point, with most of the global population carrying natural immunity, it's difficult to think there is value in shutting down the global economy.


 ... LMAO... I would be hard-pressed to think there was a remote 1% shut-down in the "global" economy. Just look at the "airline" industry - did it "shut down" at all?



> We spent the afternoon going to car dealerships, listening to them explain to us there are no cars available and orders will take 6 to 10 months, depending on model. All of the brands we looked at were in the same situation. All because China wants to stop a cold from spreading through their population.


 ... maybe it's time for a country to be reliant-on-self instead of on other countries?



> As brilliant as China was handling the Wuhan and Delta variants, this may be time for them to consider a change. * It's a shame establishments are so resistant to change.*


 ... sounds alot like some companies that I have worked for (here in Canada), *specifically with management* who don't want to stick out their own necks.



> On the positive side, I'd like to see a lot of manufacturing return to North America. This has been a great impetus for that. It doesn't make sense to re-shore all of it but anything that can be produced with a substantially mechanized process (not labour intensive) should be produced a lot closer to where the products are consumed. *One day, we will look back on the shipping of this era and think it is ridiculous and wasteful to produce a paper N95 mask in one place and ship it half way around the world where it is used.*


 ... see comment above about self-reliance. But then one can't help but laugh with Canada's "starter" vaccine production company named in post #1536.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> The news is now focusing more on the new BA2 variant spreading all rapidly all over the world.
> *
> Infections, hospitalizations, ICU cases and deaths are rising again. It looks like another massive wave of the virus is building.*


 ... you're moving too fast sags, March break ain't over nor April's Fool day is upon us.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... define "long term" immunity. See response to your next post.


We don't know what long term means, at this point, but I suspect people who have had COVID will have some defence against variants for the rest of their lives.

People who had SARS CoV-v1 still show indications of having immunity to that virus after many years. My expectation is that COVID 19 will be the same.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... the majority of the population doesn't live in Yellowknife nor wish to. In fact, the majority of Canada wants to live further south, as close to the equator as possible.


He made a good point and used Yellowknife as an example. A friend of mine works in Yellowknife and she tells me it is a beautiful place. I hope to visit one day extremely soon.

The goal of the COVID response in 2020 was to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed by slowing the spread of the virus and also to slow the viral propagation while vaccines were brought to bear. The goal was never to eradicate COVID 19.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> We don't know what long term means, at this point, but I suspect people who have had COVID will have some defence against variants for the rest of their lives.


 ... in that case, we don't need boosters do we? What about the annual flu shot, why do we need these then?



> People who had SARS CoV-v1 still show indications of having immunity to that virus after many years.


 ... yes, immunity for "that virus, not Covid or its future variants". 



> My expectation is that COVID 19 will be the same.


 ... fair enough of your expectation. however, do you have evidence (a link) that proves otherwise? Ie. a SARs survivor surviving Covid as well?


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> He made a good point and used Yellowknife as an example.


 ... example of what? Opening up, moving on? Note this is "after" his first comment "is people still talking about Covid?". I would have asked "are you aware the pandemic is over? As with Yellowknife "opening up", they shouldn't have closed in the first place. It is not an area of concern (aka populous).



> A friend of mine works in Yellowknife and she tells me it is a beautiful place. I hope to visit one day extremely soon.


 .... I'm sure it is a beautiful place with nature next to you, devoid of people pollution et al. Actually I had wanted to visit Alaska first - a cruise there would be fabulous. On my bucket-list.



> The goal of the COVID response in 2020 was to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed by slowing the spread of the virus and also to slow the viral propagation while vaccines were brought to bear. The goal was never to eradicate COVID 19.


... yes, I would agree but if another wave hits meaning increased hospitalizations, then our health systems will take another hit - for how long? Have you asked anyone in the ER handling the Covid crisis what their state of mind and health is like?

My point being, as a citizen we must ALL do our part to get the numbers down as low as possible so our health systems or "economy" can manage. We have gone through this for the past 2 years and what have "we" learned other than the me, myself, and I concern? And the sad state of the economy excuse. Bottomline: without people, you got nothing.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... fair enough of your expectation. however, do you have evidence (a link) that proves otherwise? Ie. a SARs survivor surviving Covid as well?


SARS CoV-v1 and COVID 19 are not the same virus.

I was lucky enough to have had SARS, also. As I recall, I surrived.

The death rates of SARS and MERS were way higher than COVID 19.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... example of what? Opening up, moving on? Note this is "after" his first comment "is people still talking about Covid?". I would have asked "are you aware the pandemic is over? As with Yellowknife "opening up", they shouldn't have closed in the first place. It is not an area of concern (aka populous).


He asked about people talking about COVID and cited his own city as an example of a re-opening date (quoted below).

We don't have to attack people who have a different point of view. It is not an attractive behavior.

I have to stand up for a fellow Volkswagen dude. 




MK7GTI said:


> People are still talking about covid? Everything is opening up and people are moving on with their lives expect for that last 5%. Even our tiny little island of Yellowknife is opening up on April.1. Can't come soon enough.


Amen, brother.

MK4TDI Wagen here....




Beaver101 said:


> My point being, as a citizen we must ALL do our part to get the numbers down as low as possible so our health systems or "economy" can manage. We have gone through this for the past 2 years and what have "we" learned other than the me, myself, and I concern? And the sad state of the economy excuse. Bottomline: without people, you got nothing.


My point being, we should now start doing a whole lot less. We aren't smart enough to cure COVID and we are straying into the area of unintended consequences, at this point.

[Edit: adding to response]

My point of doing less is not actually my point. I am coopting the opinions of some virologists and other smart people I have been following. In other words, this is the conclusion of my research so it is my point and it comes from the perspective of a layman who is trying to educate himself about this situation.

As a value investor, research is a big part of my life. A lot of really smart people share their knowledge freely for everyone to access on the Internet. I love living in this time in history.


----------



## bgc_fan

Looks like we may see a possible covid wave in May due to the omicron subvariant. While it only discusses Alberta, given that all provinces are dropping public measures, it would likely affect all.








BA.2 subvariant could cause Alberta's 6th wave by May: biologist


With the emergence of a new subvariant of COVID-19, one developmental biologist is questioning if dropping restrictions and mask mandates in Alberta was the right call.




edmonton.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> SARS CoV-v1 and COVID 19 are not the same virus.


 ... obviously.



> I was lucky enough to have had SARS, also. As I recall, I surrived.


 ... you never mentioned you had SARs and if you did, obviously, you survived otherwise you wouldn't be here to comment. And I'm hard-pressed to believe you had SARs - where's the proof? I wouldn't be surprised you acquired a bad cold, plus a bad flu labelling them both as SARs and Covid. Afterall, they all fall under the "coronavirus" category.



> The death rates of SARS and MERS were way higher than COVID 19.


 ... proof?


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... you never mentioned you had SARs and if you did, obviously, you survived otherwise you wouldn't be here to comment. And I'm hard-pressed to believe you had SARs - where's the proof?


Are you asking for my hospital chart? lol!




Beaver101 said:


> ... proof?


This literally took less than 10 seconds to find with Google and is the first link I clicked. Maybe step up your game a little bit. People are under no obligation to spoon feed you basic information.









How do SARS and MERS compare with COVID-19?


Three coronaviruses can cause severe respiratory illness in people. One causes COVID-19, and the other two cause SARS and MERS. Learn how they differ here.




www.medicalnewstoday.com


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> He asked about people talking about COVID and cited his own city as an example of a re-opening date (quoted below).


 ... which would have been fine if he didn't first say "_People are still talking about covid?_" What did he expect us to talk about ... in this thread? Yellow-knife? Or his need to prove that Yellow-knife is "now open" and everyone living there is "moving on." And that Toronto (eg.) ain't? 

Let me give you my honest opinion here, everyone in every city around the world has been "moving on, living with Covid". Yellow-knife is no exception except as said, it shouldn't been closed in the first place.



> We don't have to attack people who have a different point of view. It is not an attractive behavior.


 ... not sure why you sees my POV is an "attack". See above.



> I have to stand up for a fellow Volkswagen dude.
> 
> Amen, brother.
> 
> MK4TDI Wagen here....


 ... by all means.


My point being, we should now start doing a whole lot less. We aren't smart enough to cure COVID and we are straying into the area of unintended consequences, at this point.

[Edit: adding to response]



> My point of doing less is not actually my point. I am coopting the opinions of some virologists and other smart people I have been following. In other words, this is the conclusion of my research so it is my point and it comes from the perspective of a layman who is trying to educate himself about this situation.


 ... I'm leaving it to the real virological experts to figure that out. I'm just doing my part not to add to the fuel or becoming a stats for the hospital.



> As a value investor, research is a big part of my life. A lot of really smart people share their knowledge freely for everyone to access on the Internet. I love living in this time in history.


.... sure, after-all it's supposed to be freedom of speech. However, my stance between investing and health is the complete opposite. 

With health, I would rather err on the side of caution. With investing, I can easily replace my loss. I can't say the same for someone else or their POV.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... I'm leaving it to the real virological experts to figure that out. I'm just doing my part not to add to the fuel or becoming a stats for the hospital.


If you were leaving COVID for the experts, you wouldn't be in here wearing out your keyboard, arguing with several people.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Are you asking for my hospital chart? lol!


 ... in your case, YES. [LMAO]



> This literally took less than 10 seconds to find with Google and is the first link I clicked. Maybe step up your game a little bit. People are under no obligation to spoon feed you basic information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do SARS and MERS compare with COVID-19?
> 
> 
> Three coronaviruses can cause severe respiratory illness in people. One causes COVID-19, and the other two cause SARS and MERS. Learn how they differ here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medicalnewstoday.com


 ... I think you're reading too much into this "research" assignment of yours. Sorry but I got better things to do (-no offense here but I'm "moving on"). 

Anyhow, a quick glance of the stats in your link:

*



SARS:

Click to expand...

*


> _*Total number of deaths: *812
> *
> MER:
> Total number of deaths: *866
> 
> *COVID:
> Total number of deaths: *88,982
> 
> CONCLUSIONS:
> 
> *Coronaviruses past and present*
> 
> Each of the three new coronaviruses that has emerged since the turn of the century has caused respiratory disease outbreaks, but each has also displayed unique features.
> 
> SARS and MERS have significantly higher case fatality rates than COVID-19. Yet COVID-19 is more infectious — the underlying SARS-CoV-2 virus spreads more easily among people, leading to greater case numbers.
> 
> *Despite the lower case fatality rate, the overall number of deaths from COVID-19 far outweighs that from SARS or MERS.*
> 
> There have been no cases of SARS for over a decade. But MERS is an ongoing public health concern.
> 
> *One factor that could contribute to the extent of damage that any new coronavirus can cause is globalization. *As infectious disease specialist and WHO advisor Prof. David Heymann told Medical News Today in an interview:
> 
> “In the past, coronaviruses that cause the common cold in humans also emerged, possibly in the same way as did the current pandemic.”
> 
> “But they did not have the opportunity to hop on international flights and spread rapidly around the globe,” he continued. “*They likely circulated locally and then gradually spread to neighboring countries and onward throughout the world.”*
> _


 ... so do you see the virus disappearing with Omicron, anytime soon?


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> If you were leaving COVID for the experts, you wouldn't be in here wearing out your keyboard, arguing with several people.


 ... huh? Why am I "arguing" with you here if I'm leaving it to the experts? I'm merely here stating I'm not an expert nor claim to be one. 

And I don't agree with the "HURRY, OPEN UP EVERYTHING!!!!" when the pandemic hasn't been declared over. In particular from a poster residing from Yellow-knife who he knows nothing of the real situation, happening in my city or elsewhere.


----------



## Beaver101

bgc_fan said:


> Looks like we may see a possible covid wave in May due to the omicron subvariant. While it only discusses Alberta, given that all provinces are dropping public measures, it would likely affect all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BA.2 subvariant could cause Alberta's 6th wave by May: biologist
> 
> 
> With the emergence of a new subvariant of COVID-19, one developmental biologist is questioning if dropping restrictions and mask mandates in Alberta was the right call.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edmonton.ctvnews.ca


 ... if Alberta can't manage their hospalisations, then I'll definitely petition father Ford to NOT open ours. Ontario's Welcome Mat from our hospitals is good for 1 use only and Alberta, and others had theirs already.


----------



## MK7GTI

TomB16 said:


> He asked about people talking about COVID and cited his own city as an example of a re-opening date (quoted below).
> 
> We don't have to attack people who have a different point of view. It is not an attractive behavior.
> 
> I have to stand up for a fellow Volkswagen dude.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amen, brother.
> 
> MK4TDI Wagen here....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point being, we should now start doing a whole lot less. We aren't smart enough to cure COVID and we are straying into the area of unintended consequences, at this point.
> 
> [Edit: adding to response]
> 
> My point of doing less is not actually my point. I am coopting the opinions of some virologists and other smart people I have been following. In other words, this is the conclusion of my research so it is my point and it comes from the perspective of a layman who is trying to educate himself about this situation.
> 
> As a value investor, research is a big part of my life. A lot of really smart people share their knowledge freely for everyone to access on the Internet. I love living in this time in history.


I assume Beaver was trolling again? I have him on ignore. When a city as remote and as small as Yellowknife is opening up completely, we are coming to the end. You can't keep all these measures in place for years as much as Beaver would like that. He's not the 5% of people left. He's the 1% of that 5% unfortunately.


----------



## Beaver101

MK7GTI said:


> I assume Beaver was trolling again? I have him on ignore.


 ... talking about yourself again? Brown-nosing around here again. Btw, I'm not a "him". I'm a her.



> When a city as remote and as small as Yellowknife is opening up completely, we are coming to the end.


 ... good for you. I hope you tell your mayor that of how proud a job he/she has done. As said, Yellow-knife never needed to close. 

So repeat YOUR WORDS here .. "a city as remote and as small..." LMAO. As if Toronto is remote and ever small with a population of what? <100K? Not going to bother looking up/for it - irrelevant.



> You can't keep all these measures in place for years as much as Beaver would like that. He's not the 5% of people left. He's the 1% of that 5% unfortunately.


 ... if you say so, putting words in other people's mouth along with sticking a brown-nose where it doesn't belong. You do a wonder image for your city here, btw.


----------



## TomB16

MK7GTI said:


> I assume Beaver was trolling again.


I don't know about that but I like to think of my mk4 TDI as having a positive impact on respiratory illness like covid 19.


----------



## TomB16

With over 30 million people on lockdown, COVID in China has gone from 4500 to 14,000 in two days.


----------



## londoncalling

Physician town hall reveals provincial death rate per 100,000 highest in the country (msn.com) 

As per the comments about population density and restrictions or the lack thereof needed for Yellowknife. Population sparse Saskatchewan is now leading the country in death per capita. Please note this is also the province that raced to be first to remove restrictions. To say there isn't a correlation between restrictions, vaccinations, exposure, hospitalizations and death is definitely short sighted. Saskatchewan's vaccination rate plateaued early and saw lower uptake for second dose. Whether or not the total deaths per capita will be lower in the long term due to herd immunity being achieved in the province as a result remains to be seen. There are many other factors that could contribute to a higher rate such as population age, health etc. 

Many believe that Canadians in general have become worse as a result of the pandemic. It would have been nice for the pandemic to turn endemic when we were praising our essential service workers. Two years later, most of us are fatigued, impatient and sick of it all. 

80% of Canadians say COVID pandemic has pulled people further apart: survey | iNFOnews | Thompson-Okanagan's News Source (infotel.ca)

World Happiness Report: Canada ranks 15 | CTV News


----------



## TomB16

In Saskatchewan, we believe daylight savings will burn our crops.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> I was lucky enough to have had SARS, also. As I recall, I surrived.


Having SARS is pretty unique. I think there were fewer than 1000 cases in Canada. And you also caught Covid twice so far, as I recall.

Is there something unique that you do that might put you in harm's way for these kinds of bugs? Maybe you work in the medical field. Just curious.


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> I have not seen that research. The data I subscribe to suggests long term immunity so I snicker at your little pandemic wave.


Are you disregarding all the reinfections. I know people who had COVID last year and again this year.


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> Are you disregarding all the reinfections. I know people who had COVID last year and again this year.


I fall into the demographic of having a break through infection, also. I had the Wuhan virus in January 2020 and also Omicron variant in January 2022.

The thing is, Omicron was about as light of an infection as it could be. If it was any less aggressive, I wouldn't have noticed it. I'm an older man so it seems unlikely for Omicron to have been so mild, if I wasn't picking up some defence from either the Wuhan infection, the Pfizer booster, or both. Of course, this is conjecture.

There seems to be different definitions of the term "immunity". It doesn't mean you will never get sick again. Virus change and evolve over time. People also have weak moments, when they are low on sleep, spent the weekend with Charlie Sheen, or whatever.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Having SARS is pretty unique. I think there were fewer than 1000 cases in Canada. And you also caught Covid twice so far, as I recall.
> 
> Is there something unique that you do that might put you in harm's way for these kinds of bugs? Maybe you work in the medical field. Just curious.


Reducing our exposure to virus was a very small factor in our decision to retire, but it was still a factor. As we get older and our risk is going up, it has become a consideration.

I'm not aware of having West Nile, although a lot more people have had it than are aware so maybe... and I haven't had MERS. At least I have that going for me. lol!

As for COVID 19, more people have had it than are aware, just like West Nile. The numbers aren't going down because truckers started washing their hands. Omicron is running out of people to infect.


In my opinion:


We shouldn't need a pandemic to eat well and exercise
We shouldn't need a pandemic to wash our hands
We should have always been wearing masks in some situations, like air travel
I plan to continue wearing a mask, occasionally, for the rest of my life


----------



## Beaver101

^ Still doesn't answer J4B's question (reposted here):



> _james4beach said:
> *Having SARS is pretty unique.* I think there were fewer than 1000 cases in Canada. And you also caught Covid twice so far, as I recall.
> 
> *Is there something unique that you do that might put you in harm's way for these kinds of bugs?* Maybe you work in the medical field. Just curious._




And I agree with ALL your opinions in your post #1583 above. With most certainty and absoluteness that we don't need a pandemic to wash our hands!!!! Repeating a previous mentioned eg. - people (like my ex-boss) who don't wash their hands after doing their business in the toilet. EWWWW!!!!


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> Omicron is running out of people to infect.


I think your model for how this works is kind of wrong. I agree with you that it's likely that the protection against severe outcomes (the cell based immunity involving B cells, T cells) is long-lasting, however, covid clearly infects people and makes them sick more than once.

Both vaccine and natural immunity seem to trail off after just a few months. The antibodies subside. People who aren't being cautious are going to end up catching omicron multiple times. And of course, it might even mutate again.

Look at UK. They had enormous numbers of prior infections and assumed they're in the all clear, and yet cases *and hospitalizations* are now rising again.

I think it's flawed reasoning to think that these waves are "one and done". Those antibodies only help people for a few months. After that, people are again susceptible to infections. Then add the wildcard of mutations and there's even greater threat. It's better to maintain ongoing vigilance, not act like you're invincible.


----------



## bgc_fan

londoncalling said:


> As per the comments about population density and restrictions or the lack thereof needed for Yellowknife. Population sparse Saskatchewan is now leading the country in death per capita.


Not that it's not an issue. The thing about a small population is that when you put things per capita, 1 death/case in a small population is going to be exaggerated. 

That aside, degree of vaccination will also play a role, with rural populations generally having lower rates of vaccination. All it takes is the virus to get into a population with no vaccine protection and you'll see increases in cases despite the population density. Even if there aren't as many people tightly packed together, unless everyone is a hermit, you're going to get a large enough network of people interacting with each other.


----------



## bgc_fan

So, it's looking increasingly likely that Ivermectin isn't useful for any sort of covid treatment: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date


----------



## sags

Maybe people believed they were "cured" with Ivermectin because they had worms........not covid.


----------



## sags

Doctor to patient........you have worms.

Patient to doctor.........I want to get a second opinion.

Doctor.........okay, you could also have covid.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Maybe people believed they were "cured" with Ivermectin because they had worms........not covid.


 .. I wonder what these "folks" thought they were in the first place? Guinea pigs since can't be a sheep. Ah, the wolf-thing. ROFLMAFAO.


----------



## sags

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-covid-19-hospitalizations-omicron-ba2-boosters-1.6390333


----------



## james4beach

Some of the buses I've seen today were completely packed full of people (very dense) with very few masks. The masks are optional now.

I think that's a very bad idea. I just can't imagine how seniors are going to be able to take public transit now.

This seems awfully disrespectful and negligent of the elderly and those with health problems. I'm going to contact my city's customer relations department and complain about the unsafe conditions on transit.

If you're a senior and you're taking a bus or plane, make sure you're wearing at minimum a KN95 / CAN95 mask or I suppose, if that's not an option, a double layer of surgical + well formed cloth mask. The KN95 masks can be used for multiple outings for a rather large # of hours of total wearing.


----------



## sags

Our son has a boy on a house league hockey team who is the team's only goalie, so they feel obligated to attend all the games.

They are at a tournament in the GTA this weekend. The hotel is full. The rink is full of parents and kids.

My wife's employer retirement home is dealing with an outbreak brought into the home by a family member of one of the residents.

There were huge gatherings and parties among Western University students here this weekend.

Meanwhile, CNN had a segment talking about the new BA2 variant and the experts all say the virus is spreading globally and they expect big outbreaks in a couple of weeks. They say the pattern is to follow Europe by about 3 - 5 weeks.

The early reports are that fully vaccinated people are getting infected and have serious symptoms, but not bad enough for hospitalization.

The big concern is that 70% of Americans are not fully vaccinated and will get very sick, especially older people.

They say the BA2 is 30% more infectious than the Omicron and has Delta like symptoms. That makes sense as it is a combination variant.

They say that natural immunity from previous infections or vaccines isn't providing much protection against BA2 infection.

The doctors all say that politicians should not be removing mask mandates or restrictions right now.

Dr. Tam reported that the decline in cases in Canada hit a plateau at a pretty high rate of infection and they think the cases will start rising again.

Here we go again.


----------



## HappilyRetired

The CDC has quietly removed 25% of child Covid deaths due to "coding error".

An error that big in private industry would get you fired.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Some of the buses I've seen today were completely packed full of people (very dense) with very few masks. The masks are optional now.
> 
> I think that's a very bad idea. I just can't imagine how seniors are going to be able to take public transit now.
> 
> This seems awfully disrespectful and negligent of the elderly and those with health problems. I'm going to contact my city's customer relations department and complain about the unsafe conditions on transit.
> 
> If you're a senior and you're taking a bus or plane, make sure you're wearing at minimum a KN95 / CAN95 mask or I suppose, if that's not an option, a double layer of surgical + well formed cloth mask. The KN95 masks can be used for multiple outings for a rather large # of hours of total wearing.


----------



## TomB16

China is now at 130K cases. That was quick


----------



## HappilyRetired

TomB16 said:


> China is now at 130K cases. That was quick


Just to make sure, maybe they should post more videos of people fake collapsing in the street to ramp up the fear.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Some of the buses I've seen today were completely packed full of people (very dense) with very few masks. The masks are optional now.
> 
> I think that's a very bad idea. I just can't imagine how seniors are going to be able to take public transit now.
> 
> This seems awfully disrespectful and negligent of the elderly and those with health problems. I'm going to contact my city's customer relations department and complain about the unsafe conditions on transit.
> 
> If you're a senior and you're taking a bus or plane, make sure you're wearing at minimum a KN95 / CAN95 mask or I suppose, if that's not an option, a double layer of surgical + well formed cloth mask. The KN95 masks can be used for multiple outings for a rather large # of hours of total wearing.


 ... not here on "public transit" in Toronto. The mask "mandate" still in effect until April 27th. Surprisingly!, I noticed people walking the streets are still wearing masks (if not more people), let alone the private establishments. Servers in restaurants are still wearing masks, as with the cashiers over at Walmart & Metro the supermarket. 

In fact, there was an article a couple of days ago in the TO Star where they surveyed "34" health officers for the various boroughs around the GTA about their "personal" stance on the mask wearing. More than 75% of them will continue to do so, particularly in high-risk or with LOTS OF PEOPLE setting. The other 25% remained neutral so not to upset the crybabies. Sounds prudent which is fine by me.

PS: Also, the public transit sector (TTC & GO) ain't dumb enough to remove the mask mandate given most workers are required to return in-person to the office soon.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Our son has a boy on a house league hockey team who is the team's only goalie, so they feel obligated to attend all the games.
> 
> They are at a tournament in the GTA this weekend. The hotel is full. The rink is full of parents and kids.
> 
> My wife's employer retirement home is dealing with an outbreak brought into the home by a family member of one of the residents.
> 
> There were huge gatherings and parties among Western University students here this weekend.
> 
> Meanwhile, CNN had a segment talking about the new BA2 variant and the experts all say the virus is spreading globally and they expect big outbreaks in a couple of weeks. They say the pattern is to follow Europe by about 3 - 5 weeks.
> 
> The early reports are that fully vaccinated people are getting infected and have serious symptoms, but not bad enough for hospitalization.
> 
> The big concern is that 70% of Americans are not fully vaccinated and will get very sick, especially older people.
> 
> They say the BA2 is 30% more infectious than the Omicron and has Delta like symptoms. That makes sense as it is a combination variant.
> 
> They say that natural immunity from previous infections or vaccines isn't providing much protection against BA2 infection.
> 
> The doctors all say that politicians should not be removing mask mandates or restrictions right now.
> 
> Dr. Tam reported that the decline in cases in Canada hit a plateau at a pretty high rate of infection and they think the cases will start rising again.
> 
> Here we go again.


 ... just a matter of time and we really don't' know what the 'real' effect is with both BA.2 and the (re)-combinant - DeltaCron.

We shall find out and repeat, if hospitalisations go up in Ontario, we know who to blame - Mr. Moore. And then father Ford.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Just to make sure, maybe they should post more videos of people fake collapsing in the street to ramp up the fear.


 ... only you would noticed.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> China is now at 130K cases. That was quick


 ... what do you expect with BA.2 knowing what we know - that it is EXTREMELY infectious? Plus China's billions population? 

Obviously, some leper visitor (tourist or not) slipped in and around, around, and around it goes which also proves the earth ain't flat. 

Don't worry, we (as in North America) will have another "wave" of infections following Europe, Africa, China, and the Pacific Ocean. Just keep the welcome mat out. All it takes is time.

Just pray that any mutated virus ain't gonna get deadlier as we haven't really seen the effect(s) of a recombinant such as DeltaCron yet.


----------



## TomB16

New cases in Canada over the last month look reasonably flat to me. I wonder how much these numbers are under-reported.










Deaths don't appear to be spiking.










Maybe the sky is not falling?


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> Just pray that any mutated virus ain't gonna get deadlier as we haven't really seen the effect(s) of a recombinant such as DeltaCron yet.


I'm not worried about new variants, now that I've had Omicron. It appears I am well protected. Time will tell.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I'm not worried about new variants, now that I've had Omicron. It appears I am well protected. Time will tell.


 ... you're well super-protected. You had SARS, the original Wuhan virus (does this mean Delta?), Omicron version 1 at least plus 3 mRNA vaccines.

The concern on the spike in hospitalisations are reserved for those "unvaxxeds or so-called "freedomfighther for thyself" where they'll hold up hospital reserves unnecessarily, never mind about depriving others of service or putting someone else at risk. Since this is a financial forum, doesn't this bother you or knowing how your tax dollars are being spent in this area?


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> New cases in Canada over the last month look reasonably flat to me. I wonder how much these numbers are under-reported.
> 
> View attachment 22968
> 
> 
> Deaths don't appear to be spiking.
> 
> View attachment 22969
> 
> 
> Maybe the sky is not falling?


As Trump astutely pointed out: you don't get big numbers if you don't test. Restrict access to testing and the whole problem goes away.


----------



## bgc_fan

sags said:


> Doctor to patient........you have worms.
> 
> Patient to doctor.........I want to get a second opinion.
> 
> Doctor.........okay, you could also have covid.


I know you are being funny, but that isn't too far off the truth. Any of the weakly positive studies that have been published, if not flawed, tend to be based in countries with high parasitic regions. For example, Brazil has a parasitic prevalence issue, so a number of people will be taking ivermectin. Obviously, a parasitic infection is going to weaken the body and make one more susceptible to covid's effects. Being able to deal with the parasite means that the body can concentrate on covid, rather than both at the same time.


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> As Trump astutely pointed out: you don't get big numbers if you don't test. Restrict access to testing and the whole problem goes away.


It seems likely, there is a lot more Omicron cases than indicated but I suspect the death rate is reasonably accurate.


----------



## HappilyRetired

More suspect Covid fatalities are being uncovered. So far, every single "mistake" that's been identified has increased the Covid numbers. If all the mistakes go the same way, they're not mistakes:

"In total, 14 different terms were used to describe a person who had died with Covid – including ‘underlying Covid’, ‘due to Covid’, ‘involving Covid’ and ‘died within either 28 or 60 days of a positive test’.

Some hospital trusts required a positive test to certify a Covid death, while others didn’t.

Most shockingly, in care homes, deaths were certified by doctors making their inspection via a video call – and this was permitted due to emergency guidance introduced in April 2020."

Chaotic death recording during the pandemic could mean thousands were WRONGLY blamed on Covid | Daily Mail Online


----------



## Beaver101

^ Ya, fat people die too as with old people. Basically everyone is gonna to die so why not lump them with Covid since there's no category per se of fat people or old people "pandemic". LMAO.


----------



## Beaver101

bgc_fan said:


> I know you are being funny, but that isn't too far off the truth. Any of the weakly positive studies that have been published, if not flawed, tend to be based in countries with high parasitic regions. For example, Brazil has a parasitic prevalence issue, so a number of people will be taking ivermectin. Obviously, a parasitic infection is going to weaken the body and make one more susceptible to covid's effects. *Being able to deal with the parasite means that the body can concentrate on covid, rather than both at the same time.*


 ... that to me is like saying ivermectin doesn't work as a "dewormer" (as intended) either if it's gonna to work on Covid. VERY EFFECTIVE drug, NOT. For the garbage-bin where it belongs.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> As Trump astutely pointed out: you don't get big numbers if you don't test. Restrict access to testing and the whole problem goes away.


Canada hardly tests at all. Other than people in hospitals, I'm not even sure who else can get a test, where the results show up in the stats.

Sewage indicators seem to be one of the only accurate readings of what's going on. Test positivity may also be useful to show direction, but not absolute level.



sags said:


> They are at a tournament in the GTA this weekend. The hotel is full. The rink is full of parents and kids.


All it takes is one or two infectious people among them, and everyone's going to get it. We already know that sports teams spread covid around.

They might be OK these days, since the last wave has subsided, but eventually this kind of behaviour is going to lead to a new spread. And what people don't understand is that this can happen even without a new variant, because *existing immunity will wane*.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> New cases in Canada over the last month look reasonably flat to me
> ...
> Maybe the sky is not falling?


Tom, these waves start in other countries before they hit Canada. This pattern has happened before. Europe and Asia precede it. Canada and the US get them later than Europe.

First of all those case numbers are useless because Canada doesn't really test people any more.

There's a time lag and we're currently at "happy party time" where everyone -- kind of like "Ground Hog Day" -- wants to believe covid is over. So they've stupidly returned to dangerous behaviours.

Meanwhile, the wave in Europe is just getting started now. Even the UK is early in this new wave. So we might still have 1 or 2 months of "party time" before we see anything happen here.

Even public health modelling knows this, and models from the government show rising cases and hospitalizations down the road. This is the pattern that's guaranteed to happen. All the experts know it's going to happen. The only question is, how bad does it get? Does it threaten hospitals again, or not?

Policymakers are gambling that during the summer months, it's unlikely to overwhelm hospitals and I agree, we're probably OK for now. When fall and winter comes it's a whole different story and my guess is that mandatory masks, and capacity limits, will be back.


----------



## zinfit

TomB16 said:


> Here is Afganistan, where the vaccination rate is also 11%
> 
> View attachment 22961
> 
> 
> I think you make some valid observations. Wonder how Sweden is doing. They avoided lockdowns and restrictions. They had a very high percentage of people over 75.
> The point is not that vaccination is bad. The point is that vaccination is no way substitute for the immunity generated by natural infection.
> 
> To me, the best outcome appears to be vaccination to improve survivability followed closely by natural infection (of Omicron) to produce lasting immunity but during the vaccination efficacy period.
> 
> Because of this, countries which are either cavalier about or have inadequate health care have reached endemicity already while countries trying to avoid infection are perpetuating the virus.


----------



## TomB16

Canada is only at 47% of people receiving booster vaccinations, according to Our World Data.



Anyone who has not had covid may want to consider getting a booster. It won't prevent you from getting the virus but it will be one hell of a lot less severe, if you get covid in the next two to four months, which you almost certainly will.


----------



## zinfit

TomB16 said:


> It seems likely, there is a lot more Omicron cases than indicated but I suspect the death rate is reasonably accurate.


Reported cases are a poor indicator. Hospitalizations, ICU and deaths are far more accurate. I wish the media would get the message. I figure the Texas county that I am in has probably 70% who have been infected . The official testing is around 50% of the population. I suspect a pile of Omicron happened with no testing.


----------



## bgc_fan

Seems like Canada is doing better than Sweden, with 70% more Swedish people dying per 100k:








Canada vs Sweden Coronavirus cases: day by day comparison


Canada is 360 days behind Sweden in terms of the number of coronavirus cases per 100,000 people: 12485 vs 25676. Canada - 4,457,366 and Sweden - 2,651,702... See the table of by date comparison...




georank.org





Canada does have a slightly higher percentage of 65+. https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/Sweden/People/Age-distribution.
Canada does have a higher obesity rate (29,4%) vs 20.6%. Obesity Rates by Country 2022
But Sweden has a higher urbanization rate than Canada 88% vs 82%. Urban population (% of total population) | Data


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> Anyone who has not had covid may want to consider getting a booster. It won't prevent you from getting the virus but it will be one hell of a lot less severe, if you get covid in the next two to four months, which you almost certainly will


I'm waiting to get my booster, because the shots only offer protection for 4 to 6 months at most. If I get the shot now, that protection wears off by October which is exactly the wrong schedule. It would leave me with minimal protection during winter, which is when I actually want the extra protection.

Instead, I'm planning to get my third shot roughly in September so that I'll have maximum protection during winter.

Does anyone think I should be concerned about Canada running out of Pfizer supply by Sept? I kind of worry about this. The MRNA shots are plentiful today, but can we expect them to still be plentiful through this year?


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I'm waiting to get my booster, because the shots only offer protection for 4 to 6 months at most. If I get the shot now, that protection wears off by October which is exactly the wrong schedule. It would leave me with minimal protection during winter, which is when I actually want the extra protection.
> 
> Instead, I'm planning to get my third shot roughly in September so that I'll have maximum protection during winter.
> 
> Does anyone think I should be concerned about Canada running out of Pfizer supply by Sept? I kind of worry about this. The MRNA shots are plentiful today, but can we expect them to still be plentiful through this year?


I wouldn’t worry about supply. But you seem worried. I’d get the booster now. I’m sure there will be a new variant formula in time for winter. If These variants continue to have similar death rates, I’m pretty sure there will be annual updates, similar to flu vaccines.


----------



## sags

We need a better vaccine delivery system because mass vaccinations are expensive, difficult to set up and staff, and take too long.

Pills, nasal sprays, self injection (it really isn't all that complicated) would speed up delivery to the masses.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> We need a better vaccine delivery system because mass vaccinations are expensive, difficult to set up and staff, and take too long.
> 
> Pills, nasal sprays, self injection (it really isn't all that complicated) would speed up delivery to the masses.


You've got this wrong, mass vaccinations are cheap, fast and easy to administer.
For Flu shots I went to a drive through flu shot clinic. Didn't even need to leave my car, also with so many pharmacies offering shots, they're really easy.

Pills and nasal sprays don't typically work for vaccinations, which is why we don't use them. The flu nasal spray was a flop (it was more uncomfortable than a needle, source my kids took it and said they wanted the needle next time, and it didn't work (source research on nasal spray efficacy).

Self injection is a problem, it isnt too complicated, but distributing refrigerated, single dose prepared needles does get complicated, as well as proper sharps disposal.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I would agree that the jabs would be easier and cheaper. Interesting effect of the "flu" nasal spray ... sorry, I'm getting a picture of glue-sniffing....lol.

As for the "pills", a downside is it takes waaaay too much time to be effective. Look at blood-clotting agents - a heparin shot is more effective if not quicker to counter blood clotting than taking an anti-coagulant pill, say.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> I'm waiting to get my booster, because the shots only offer protection for 4 to 6 months at most. If I get the shot now, that protection wears off by October which is exactly the wrong schedule. It would leave me with minimal protection during winter, which is when I actually want the extra protection.


There is some (non-conclusive) data suggesting the protection will be more like 2~4 months.

Given the spread is exponential, it won't be long before you are gifted with Omicron.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> They might be OK these days, since the last wave has subsided, but eventually this kind of behaviour is going to lead to a new spread. And what people don't understand is that this can happen even without a new variant, because *existing immunity will wane*.


Herd immunity to Omicron will be higher than previous variants, as it is more contagious. Once everyone has had Omicron, the virus will be limited to occasional break-through infections with few symptoms and quick recoveries.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Went out today for a quick shopping trip in Ontario. I was little surprised. I saw maybe 10% of the customers without a mask on and every employee was wearing one. This outing was to a dollar store and a grocery store.

I told my wife that I would like to set up a time lapse camera that took pictures every hour for a whole week to watch the change in behavior. I suspect less then 50% will be wearing masks by Friday but it will be interesting to see. I wore one mainly because everyone else mostly did and I did not want to be the A-hole and because my wife wanted to wear one because we have a hockey game to go to on Friday and she did not want to get sick and miss it. In any case I doubt I will wear one for short time exposures after Friday.

Anyway, I thought I would give an on the ground update for Eastern Ontario.


----------



## TomB16

We went car shopping on Saturday in SK. I was the only one wearing a mask. Two of three salesmen put on a mask, when they saw me wearing one.

This isn't all that surprising since SK is basically a trailer park.


----------



## HappilyRetired

TomB16 said:


> This isn't all that surprising since SK is basically a trailer park.


Liberals always look down on others yet like to brag about their tolerance. Or maybe you're just upset because SK understands mask science better than you do.


----------



## TomB16

Is anyone else spurred on by COVID19 to get into shape?

I've dropped 7 of a 20kg goal and I feel quite a bit better. We spent the winter walking an average of 11.7km per day, according to Google Fit. Plus, we have been climbing hills and swimming outside of the Google Fit metrics.

It has become clear to me that someone in reasonable condition will do better than another person in poor health but given the Pfizer cure and/or a vaccine, if both are infected with COVID 19. It's not just about covid. It's about quality of life, longevity of life, and clarity of thought which come from taking care of yourself.

Time to stop outsourcing our health and take some responsibility for ourselves.


----------



## londoncalling

SK does not understand mask science. Proof of such was when the province dropped masking so that we wouldn't have to forego summer. Weeks later the province had to reintroduce restrictions. To my knowledge the effect the removal of restrictions had on case rates during that time period is unknown. Everybody thinks they are more tolerant than they pretend to be. They also believe the are epidemiologists, lawyers, and political scientists.


----------



## KaeJS

Happy unmasking day.

Went to the grocery store. Noticed the same thing as Optsy... About 90% of people still wearing a mask. I saw 2 people not wearing one. 

Crazy. I can't believe people are still wearing them after all this time.


----------



## Money172375

There was a customer in Costco saying “nice to see your face” to everyone without a mask.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> There was a customer in Costco saying “nice to see your face” to everyone without a mask.


 ... that customer must be a bank employee too. LMAO.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Masks have become some people's security blanket.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Masks have become some people's security blanket.


 ... I don't blame them for wanting to protect themselves. Doesn't bother me here. Besides, there is no unmasking mandate to follow.


----------



## KaeJS

Beaver101 said:


> Doesn't bother me here. Besides, there is no unmasking mandate to follow.


Funny how that works, isn't it?

It must be nice to be given a choice.


----------



## Beaver101

KaeJS said:


> Funny how that works, isn't it?
> 
> It must be nice to be given a choice.


 ... might want to ask that question or provide the "choice" remark for those who are at high risk such as the immuno-compromiseds. They can't even cry about not given the choice of moving freely outside of their pad. And of course, they gonna die anyways say the anti-muzzlers.


----------



## KaeJS

Beaver101 said:


> ... might want to ask that question or provide the "choice" remark for those who are at high risk such as the immuno-compromiseds. They can't even cry about not given the choice of moving freely outside of their pad. And of course, they gonna die anyways say the anti-muzzlers.


Lolwut?

They always had the choice to move about freely. If they are high risk and uncomfortable, they should stay home.


----------



## MrMatt

KaeJS said:


> Happy unmasking day.
> 
> Went to the grocery store. Noticed the same thing as Optsy... About 90% of people still wearing a mask. I saw 2 people not wearing one.
> 
> Crazy. I can't believe people are still wearing them after all this time.


I understand people want to take them off, but look at the situation in Korea.
It is very likely that we're going to have another wave.

Oh, when I'm out I wear a mask, unless I'm in a social setting, because why not?

The thing is, COVID is still around, new variants are coming, masking is a cheap, easy and convenient way to slightly increase your protection, why wouldn't you wear one?


----------



## KaeJS

MrMatt said:


> I understand people want to take them off, but look at the situation in Korea.
> It is very likely that we're going to have another wave.
> 
> Oh, when I'm out I wear a mask, unless I'm in a social setting, because why not?
> 
> The thing is, COVID is still around, new variants are coming, masking is a cheap, easy and convenient way to slightly increase your protection, why wouldn't you wear one?


COVID will always be around.
You gonna wear a mask forever? It's a virus. They have been around since before humans. How did humans ever survive this long without masks?

Should we ban or stop everything that is bad for us or could kill us?

I hope you never take a plane or get in a car again. You could die.


----------



## Beaver101

KaeJS said:


> Lolwut?
> 
> They always had the choice to move about freely. If they are high risk and uncomfortable, they should stay home.


 ... I think you would prefer a leukemia patient to be locked up too so that woeful loudmouth anti-muzzler can go around liberally spreading his germs.


----------



## KaeJS

Not sure what leukemia has to do with anything.

Start a new thread if you want a topic on leukemia.


----------



## TomB16

Pfizer has applied for emergency use approval to vaccinate 65+ people.

Modern a has applied for emergency use approval to give a 4th dose to 18+ people.

I'm not sure about the lukemia chat. Somehow cancer has a way of showing up where it is least wanted.


----------



## Beaver101

KaeJS said:


> Not sure what leukemia has to do with anything.


 ... it has everything to do with masking just like any immuno-compromised person has to deal with. I can't help it if you don't agree with it.



> Start a new thread if you want a topic on leukemia.


 ... no, why don't you start a thread to celebrate "Happy Unmasking Day". Afterall, it's "freedom" from a mandate, ain't it?

Like I said, anyone who chooses to continue masking *DOES NOT BOTHER* me. Not sure why it still bothers you. I still see the clerks over at the supermarket, bank etc. still masked up along with the servers over at the eateries. I'm all fine with shopping, banking, and dining there. I'm sure the employees there are given that choice to "mask up" too and NOT bothered by it.


----------



## KaeJS

Beaver101 said:


> ... it has everything to do with masking just like any immuno-compromised person has to deal with. I can't help it if you don't agree with it.
> 
> ... no, why don't you start a thread to celebrate "Happy Unmasking Day". Afterall, it's "freedom" from a mandate, ain't it?
> 
> Like I said, anyone who chooses to continue masking *DOES NOT BOTHER* me. Not sure why it still bothers you. I still see the clerks over at the supermarket, bank etc. still masked up along with the servers over at the eateries. I'm all fine with shopping, banking, and dining there. I'm sure the employees there are given that choice to "mask up" too and NOT bothered by it.


Leukemia is not contagious. So, no, I'm still not sure why you're talking about Leukemia in a COVID thread.

That's great if it doesn't bother you when others wear a mask. It doesn't bother me, either. That is their choice and that is their right. You are missing the point. The point is that they have a choice to wear, but we did not have a choice to not wear.

I never once said it bothers me. Once again, I'm never entirely sure what it is that you're talking about.


----------



## MrMatt

KaeJS said:


> COVID will always be around.


Maybe maybe not, some viral strains have been wiped out, some persist.



> You gonna wear a mask forever? It's a virus. They have been around since before humans. How did humans ever survive this long without masks?


Since you're asking what _I_ am going to do, I'll tell you, though I've said it many times.
When the risk is high I will take increased precautions, when it is low I will take lower precauations. I will act this way according to local conditions.
For example right now, it looks low in my area, so I won't restrict too much, but seeing as some areas are seeing bumps, I'll wear a mask in higher risk situations, ie sports games, shopping etc.
However as it is still somewhat low risk, I'm not refraining from social activities, like playing with friends, or going out to the movies.



> Should we ban or stop everything that is bad for us or could kill us?


Nope, never said we should. I think we should act according to the risk at the time, in January I thought it was higher risk, and now lower risk, and I've personally adjusted my behaviour accordingly.



> I hope you never take a plane or get in a car again. You could die.


I do manage risk here as well.
I only fly on airlines or aircraft with good safety record, and I don't ride with drunks. 

Before I take an aircraft out, I get checked on that aircraft. 
If the weather is bad I'll drive slower.
Again, I alter my behaviour depending on the situation. 

I'm actually not sure what your position is. If you were in Korea today, where the hospitals are filling and the crematoriums are overflowing with bodies, don't you think masks _might_ be appropriate?


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> I do manage risk here as well.
> I only fly on airlines or aircraft with good safety record, and I don't ride with drunks.
> 
> Before I take an aircraft out, I get checked on that aircraft.
> If the weather is bad I'll drive slower.
> Again, I alter my behaviour depending on the situation.


Very sensible. One should always adjust one's behaviours appropriately for the risks.

On the covid matter, I would say it absolutely makes sense to relax one's guard somewhat right now (as I'm doing as well), however, because the pandemic has outsmarted humanity several times so far, it's also prudent to _maintain some caution_ and be ready to adapt again -- because the situation can change again.

The US has announced that they are seeing a significant % of the omicron sub variant circulating now. This is coinciding with nearly all restrictions being lifted. This is an *unpredictable* situation. If things remain OK, then no problem with relaxing one's guard. However if we see signs that the cases and hospitalizations are escalating, then more caution will be needed.


----------



## Beaver101

KaeJS said:


> Leukemia is not contagious. So, no, I'm still not sure why you're talking about Leukemia in a COVID thread.


 ... it's obvious you don't know what leukemia really is (or like) other than it's not contagious. That illness was used as a (widely known) example of an "immuno-compromised" person. And that person don't really have a "choice" not to mask up at anytime if they're to be out anywhere. 



> That's great if it doesn't bother you when others wear a mask. It doesn't bother me, either.


 ... I'm not sure about the latter o/w you wouldn't be qualming about 1. seeing still so many masked people aka WTF, and 2. wallowing about not given the choice of not being masked in the middle of a pandemic (btw, still not over). Right now, if people chooses to mask up or not to mask up, it's their prerogative. They do what's right for themselves. Security blanket or not, not for me to judge.



> That is their choice and that is their right. You are missing the point. The point is that they have a choice to wear, but we did not have a choice to not wear.


 ... no, you're missing the point. See above. Repeat: Immuno-compromised people do NOT have a choice NOT to wear the mask if they're out UNLESS they want to catch something that they can die from. You and I as non-immunocompromised people now have a choice not to mask now whereas previously you don't 'cause it was the government's mandate to control the contagiousness.



> I never once said it bothers me. Once again, I'm never entirely sure what it is that you're talking about.


 ... see above. If it truely doesn't bother you then don't wallow about the lack of choice. It's not like the government "enjoys" imposing these mandates, "only" applicable to anti-vaxxers, anti-maskers, and the whole nine yards of busy-bodies. These mandates are applicable to "every" able person. It's the law.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Very sensible. One should always adjust one's behaviours appropriately for the risks.
> 
> On the covid matter, I would say it absolutely makes sense to relax one's guard somewhat right now (as I'm doing as well), however, because the pandemic has outsmarted humanity several times so far, it's also prudent to _maintain some caution_ and be ready to adapt again -- because the situation can change again.
> 
> The US has announced that they are seeing a significant % of the omicron sub variant circulating now. This is coinciding with nearly all restrictions being lifted. This is an *unpredictable* situation. If things remain OK, then no problem with relaxing one's guard. However if we see signs that the cases and hospitalizations are escalating, then more caution will be needed.


 .. one of the "problem" of relaxing guards is the 'lag' time before we discover we need to be cautious again. Ie. working reactively rather than pro-actively. That's what I noticed with us or rather the government's response.

Anyhow, time will time how bad it'll get. Maybe we'll get lucky this time around and Covid peters out. Lots of prayers.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> .. one of the "problem" of relaxing guards is the 'lag' time before we discover we need to be cautious again. Ie. working reactively rather than pro-actively. That's what I noticed with us or rather the government's response.


You're right. On top of time lag, there's also the difficulty of adjusting behaviours. One reason I continue to wear masks everywhere is that it's much easier to maintain the habit when I do it as a routine. It's actually very easy and comes automatically to me.

If a new variant pops up, or community spread accelerates, I'll have that extra safeguard. It typically takes us 1-3 months to even realize that a change has happened in the virus's circulation.

This is exactly what helped me in December. We were coming off the delta wave and everything seemed OK in November. I decided, since it's peak cold & flu season, it's better to keep wearing masks and being careful around other people. Also since December is clearly the peak flu season, I decided to stop swimming at the indoor pool that I usually go to.

And then we got "blind-sided" by omicron. But I was already being cautious as a routine... I didn't have to wait for the government to tell me there's a problem. Meanwhile other swimmers I know actually did catch omicron, and think they got it at the pool / gym.

Nobody should be waiting for the government to tell them there's a problem.



Beaver101 said:


> Anyhow, time will time how bad it'll get. Maybe we'll get lucky this time around and Covid peters out. Lots of prayers.


Yeah hopefully it will work out fine. We may get lucky, and I hope we do.

But keep in mind that the government is largely relaxing these measures, not for medical reasons, but rather because politicians have given up and segments of the population have raised a stink. I hope everyone here protects themselves, no matter what the government is saying.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> This is an *unpredictable* situation.


There is some variability, but I think the situation is entirely predictable and obvious.



james4beach said:


> And then we got "blind-sided" by omicron.


Not really. Though I think a lot of people were willfully blind.


----------



## TomB16

We know omicron BA.2 has been here for a bit, it has an exponential spread function, and yet hospitalizations are not at ATH levels.

This is because we have considerable herd immunity. The sky is not falling.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> There is some variability, but I think the situation is entirely predictable and obvious.


If you think it's all so obvious you can answer some questions for us.

Q1. Will a future mutation land more people in hospital, or kill more (per capita) than omicron does?

Q2. (related) will a future variant be significantly more dangerous than omicron?

Q3. How long does existing immunity/vaccine benefit persist before people are vulnerable again?

Q4. In which month will the waning immunity put us back in a situation with uncontrollable community spread? And will it overwhelm hospitals?

Q5. Is long covid a significant threat? Will it give some people disabilities or prevent them from working for months/years?



TomB16 said:


> This is because we have considerable herd immunity. The sky is not falling.


Only until immunity wanes (somewhere in the 4-9 month timeframe) or a new variant evades immunity. Additionally the dynamics of disease spread change with people's behavioural changes. When people amp up their stupidity, the disease spreads more aggressively. So it's faulty reasoning to model the current situation based on disease spread dynamics _which existed while public health protection measures were in place_.

Best estimates of waning immunity also coincide with the next cold & flu season, which likely will require another booster. But since the public is now being trained into complacency, I think it's unlikely people will pick up the next booster. That could result in a pretty awful winter, with more inevitable shutdowns and hospital overloads.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> If you think it's all so obvious you can answer some questions for us.


OK. 



james4beach said:


> Q1. Will a future mutation land more people in hospital, or kill more (per capita) than omicron does?


Unlikely.



james4beach said:


> Q2. (related) will a future variant be significantly more dangerous than omicron?


Yes. Every other variant has been more dangerous than omicron.



james4beach said:


> Q3. How long does existing immunity/vaccine benefit persist before people are vulnerable again?


Vaccines: I've heard numbers of 2~6 months of booster efficacy and a 2nd booster will likely be less.

Virus infection: There is evidence to suggest long term immunity. Your suggestion of immunity from viral infection being short term is incorrect according to every piece of data I have seen. Your entire argument of long term COVID impact is based on something that has been all but disproven.



james4beach said:


> Q4. In which month will the waning immunity put us back in a situation with uncontrollable community spread? And will it overwhelm hospitals?


Immunity will not wane because we are all going to get omicron, vaccinated or not. The spread is ruthless and unstopable.

Future variants will be more dangerous than omicron but omicron will leave us with immunity to render these variants far, far less harmful. In the future, COVID 19 will become an inconvenience.



james4beach said:


> Q5. Is long covid a significant threat? Will it give some people disabilities or prevent them from working for months/years?


I have not studied this so am in no position to provide any help at all.


I bid you good health....


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> If you think it's all so obvious you can answer some questions for us.
> 
> Q1. Will a future mutation land more people in hospital, or kill more (per capita) than omicron does?


Quite likely, and since BA.2 is currently doing this in Korea right now, it's quite likely.



> Q2. (related) will a future variant be significantly more dangerous than omicron?


Depends how you measure danger.


.. other questions skipped, because they are pointless...

Sheesh, Coronaviruses have been around for millenia, they mutate fast, which is why we keep getting them again and again, and pre-COVID they never created an effective Coronavirus vaccine.

Now, after a year+ of vaccinations, we're finding out that yes Coronaviruses mutate a bunch and it's hard to build a long lasting immunity.

The likely outcome is already known and predicted by everyone with a clue.
We'll keep getting successive waves and outbreaks, it would seem likely that eventually the dominant common strains will become minor inconveinces, like all the other coronavirus strains nobody really cares about.

We might get more dangerous waves, but that's true for everything.

How long that will take, isn't really knowable, how each wave will react in each area isn't knowable either.

Take any other communicable thing, lice for instance, that goes in waves through the schools too. So do rotaviruses, and other non-COVID19 coronaviruses.

I predict that we'll continue to see Coronavirus waves for the forseable future, I hope that they'll reduce in risk so we can treat them like the typical pre-2019 waves of Coronavirus outbreaks. That is the pattern for most diseases, and other than the acute illness associated with COVID, it's basically behaving like you'd expect.


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> ... might want to ask that question or provide the "choice" remark for those who are at high risk such as the immuno-compromiseds. They can't even cry about not given the choice of moving freely outside of their pad. And of course, they gonna die anyways say the anti-muzzlers.


They had the same problems before covid with cold and flu season. It isn't my job to protect this very small group .It is incumbent on those folks to avoid any risky situation mask or no mask.


----------



## TomB16

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what immunity is and how it works.

The idea that if anyone ever has a breakthrough infection that means no immunity is gained from having an infection. This idea is bunk.

Breakthrough infections, when they happen, are extremely mild. Also, they are rare but the odds do go up with variants which stray from the infection on which the immunity is gained. I've had both Wuhan and omicron variants of COVID-19. Suffice to say, omicron was barely an inconvenience.

The sky simply is not falling. Break through infections are a minor inconvenience that do not kill people.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> Your entire argument of long term COVID impact is based on something that has been all but disproven.


You're wrong about this. There are serious concerns about long covid. Quebec is spending $20 million to open 15 clinics dedicated to treating long covid. Other researchers around the world are still trying to get a handle on what's going on, but some % of covid patients appear to have long-lasting problems.



TomB16 said:


> Immunity will not wane because we are all going to get omicron, vaccinated or not. The spread is ruthless and unstopable.


Nonsense. Not everyone catches the flu or other infectious diseases. The common cold is insanely contagious, and some people catch it repeatedly while others don't.

For example people who work with children, or those who constantly socialize in high density places, don't exercise good hygiene, end up catching colds much more often.

I've said this before, but I think your model about this is wrong. There will be long intervals between people catching this, and immunity is very likely to wane. This is partially want _contributes_ to waves happening.



MrMatt said:


> The likely outcome is already known and predicted by everyone with a clue.
> We'll keep getting successive waves and outbreaks, it would seem likely that eventually the dominant common strains will become minor inconveinces, like all the other coronavirus strains nobody really cares about.


Right, while killing and hospitalizing lot of people along the way. The people who fail to exercise caution during waves are more likely to end up in hospital.

I'm suggesting that people should prepare to protect themselves during the next wave. Protecting yourself from illness is a good idea. So yes, omicron isn't a big concern right now, but the fact remains: another wave is going to happen. We don't know exactly how it will play out, but it's better to protect yourself during the next wave.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> They had the same problems before covid with cold and flu season. It isn't my job to protect this very small group .It is incumbent on those folks to avoid any risky situation mask or no mask.


 ... true, "their" problem will always remain as long as they're under treatment for the disease. And agreed it is incumbent of these folks to avoid any risky situation as well as to protect themselves in those where they feel they would be at risk and being "unmasked" is one of them.

And of course, it isn't "your" job to "protect" this "very small" group just as it isn't anyone's else job to have to listen to the constant bawlings of the inconvenienced minority -which in this case, include the anti-maskers.

Edit - add as just saw this:

Some business owners are keeping masking in place — and legal experts say they have every right to do so

Above link may go behind a paywall ... anyhow, some snippets:



> _By Josh Rubin Business Reporter, *Toronto Star*, Tue., March 22, 2022_
> 
> ...
> _
> Still, those business owners who keep staff and customers masking are on very solid legal ground, said Allan C. Hutchinson, a professor at York University’s Osgoode Hall Law School.
> 
> “I’d be really surprised if any court struck any of these down,” said Hutchinson, adding that many people objecting to mask and vaccine mandates have a fundamental misunderstanding of the law.
> 
> “No, your charter rights aren’t being infringed. The charter only applies to government actions,” said Hutchinson.
> 
> While theoretically a mask opponent might have a better legal argument under Ontario’s Human Rights Code, Hutchinson said that’s also the longest of legal long shots.
> 
> “As long as you’re applying the rule to everyone equally, I don’t see it contravening provincial human rights codes,” said Hutchinson.
> 
> For Weinberg-Linsky, who’s wearing a protective KN-95 mask, the logic of keeping her store a masked zone is simple.
> 
> “I’ve got an 84-year-old father-in-law, my own health issues, and we’re in a neighbourhood that’s had high COVID rates,” said Weinberg-Linsky.
> 
> At Fox Cinema in the Beaches, moviegoers — and staff — will have to wear masks and show proof of vaccine for the foreseeable future.
> 
> ...
> At Toronto clothing and jewelry company Coal Miner’s Daughter’s three stores, customers and staff are still required to wear masks.
> 
> “We feel this is a small thing we can all do to keep each other and our workplace safe, for our team, our families, and the more vulnerable folks among us in our communities,” Coal Miner’s Daughter posted on Instagram. “We really can’t wait to unmask too, but we need a little more time. We deeply appreciate your co-operation and will not accept in-store shoppers not wearing a mask.”
> 
> At Mirvish Productions, spokesperson John Karastamatis said theatregoers will still need to wear a mask and show proof of vaccination until at least May 1.
> 
> So far, reaction to the mandate has been mostly positive, with a handful of exceptions that Mirvish isn’t particularly concerned about, Karastamatis said.
> 
> “When we said we were keeping the vaccine mandate, we got some emails from anti-vax people, maybe about seven or eight. ‘You’re infringing on my freedom,’ that type of stuff. We realized that not even a single one of them was a customer of ours,” said Karastamatis.
> 
> Keeping the masks and vaccine passports makes sense, he added.
> 
> “In a theatre, you’re sitting beside strangers, shoulder to shoulder,” said Karastamatis, adding that it’s hardly an onerous obligation.
> 
> *“Showing your proof of vaccination isn’t a huge inconvenience. Wearing a mask isn’t a huge inconvenience. It shows your responsibility toward other people.”*_


 ... *feel free to visit Toronto with your mask on!*


----------



## Beaver101

Hmmm... let's see how this "coronovirus immunity" works, using what Tom16 has shared. He claimed he caught SARs (original), then the Wuhan virus original (not sure this is Gamma, Beta or Delta), and then Omicron version 1 (BA.1?). He obviously survived all 3. 

We heard the Wuhan virus almost flat-lined him, but not Omicron version 1 which only gave him mild symptoms. What about SARs? How was the punch there? Light or heavy? Since SARs occurred around 2003, this means he had built up a coronavirus immunity of some 16 years before the Wuhan came along. Did Tom16 get any flus inbetween? Any flu shots? 

So between SARs and the past 2+ years, Tom16 is feeling fine with no lost of smell or any long Covid symptoms for that matter.

We need to extract Tom16's blood to share his immunity from Covid.

Tom16, have you given any thoughts of this?


----------



## james4beach

Ontario's wastewater covid samples are showing an increase. Seeing higher covid numbers after relaxing public health measures is also expected, so it may not amount to much. Something to keep an eye on though.

If that uptrend continues for another week or so, I think the smart thing to do would be to pause one's social gatherings, visits to the elderly, etc. You'd also obviously want to wear masks around other people.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> You're wrong about this. There are serious concerns about long covid. Quebec is spending $20 million to open 15 clinics dedicated to treating long covid. Other researchers around the world are still trying to get a handle on what's going on, but some % of covid patients appear to have long-lasting problems.


You seem to enjoy being wrong. I have quoted the relevant exchange to ease your comprehension.




james4beach said:


> Q5. Is long covid a significant threat? Will it give some people disabilities or prevent them from working for months/years?





TomB16 said:


> I have not studied this so am in no position to provide any help at all.



Please have a nice evening, James.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> If that uptrend continues for another week or so, I think the smart thing to do would be to pause one's social gatherings, visits to the elderly, etc. You'd also obviously want to wear masks around other people.


The ground is less fertile for BA.2 than it was for BA.1, now that we have a lot more herd immunity. Time will tell but I doubt BA.2 will peak as high.


COVID levels in wastewater are not a direct indication. Someone with the Wuhan variant is going to crap out huge volumes of virus while someone with a breakthrough omicron infection is going to shed far, far less.

I have not done a deep dive into this cesspool so perhaps someone more knowledgeable can bring us up to speed?


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Ontario's wastewater covid samples are showing an increase. Seeing higher covid numbers after relaxing public health measures is also expected, so it may not amount to much. Something to keep an eye on though.
> 
> If that uptrend continues for another week or so, I think the smart thing to do would be to pause one's social gatherings, visits to the elderly, etc. You'd also obviously want to wear masks around other people.


Why?
Considering hospitalizations are still flat/declining I don't think they are serious infections.

If hospitalization spikes, sure I'll back off, but right now I'm going to live my life.
I will wear a mask in public though.


----------



## sags

In Canada, ....hospitalizations, ICU cases, and deaths are rising. There are 119,982 active cases (+101)

3813 people in hospital with covid (+139), 409 in ICU (+1), and 32 more deaths.

These numbers don't support the proposition that covid is fading away or there is a significant amount of herd immunity present in the community.





__





COVID-19 Tracker Canada


Real-time COVID-19 data updates for every region in Canada, tracking cases, deaths, vaccinations, hospitalizations, ICU, recoveries and testing.



covid19tracker.ca


----------



## Beaver101

^ Back to normal, only it's a new version.


----------



## james4beach

I'm visiting Manitoba and trying to see friends and family. It's not easy. Everyone is still mostly stuck indoors and temperatures in the next few days are -10 to -20.

People I know all seem to be catching covid (of course). I friend told me today that his nephews just all tested positive, and they've been hanging out, so he'll probably catch it too. Since rapid tests have very high false negative rates, it's quite easy for someone to carry covid around without knowing it.

This is an indoor virus. When people are gathering indoors, without fresh air, and there are high rates of community transmission, people catch covid.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> In Canada, ....hospitalizations, ICU cases, and deaths are rising. There are 119,982 active cases (+101)
> 
> 3813 people in hospital with covid (+139), 409 in ICU (+1), and 32 more deaths.
> 
> These numbers don't support the proposition that covid is fading away or there is a significant amount of herd immunity present in the community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Tracker Canada
> 
> 
> Real-time COVID-19 data updates for every region in Canada, tracking cases, deaths, vaccinations, hospitalizations, ICU, recoveries and testing.
> 
> 
> 
> covid19tracker.ca


Look at the 7 day average shows a clear downtrend.
Yes 1 day up, but remember that there is variaton.
Across the WHOLE COUNTRY 1 more person is in ICU isn't a sign of the apocalypse.

We're at a pretty low level now, maybe it will increase, maybe not. 
I'll just wear my mask and refrain from opening a kissing booth, maybe even wash my hands occasionally.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> In Canada, ....hospitalizations, ICU cases, and deaths are rising. There are 119,982 active cases (+101)
> 
> 3813 people in hospital with covid (+139), 409 in ICU (+1), and 32 more deaths.
> 
> These numbers don't support the proposition that covid is fading away or there is a significant amount of herd immunity present in the community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Tracker Canada
> 
> 
> Real-time COVID-19 data updates for every region in Canada, tracking cases, deaths, vaccinations, hospitalizations, ICU, recoveries and testing.
> 
> 
> 
> covid19tracker.ca


According to your link, cases are on the decline. There was a single new ICU COVID case in Canada, yesterday, again, according to your stats and also cited in your post.

I agree with James in that cases are likely to be very high, right now. We don't know the precise number so this is only speculation.

That web site presents data with little context, IMO. You have to read and interpret the data, therefore, the presentation is poor.

Check out Our World in Data. These are the same stats, presented better.



















People are leaving the ICU, more people have been leaving hospital than entering, and the COVID death rate is way, way down, if the COVID infection rate speculation is correct.

Viva Omicron! Once again, the sky is not falling.


----------



## james4beach

Remember that hospitalizations and deaths are lagging indicators. Things like sewage monitoring is closer to real-time. One could see a rise in wastewater virus levels several weeks before hospitalization numbers rise.

That's why the real-time monitoring is pretty important, to understand how things may be changing. That being said, I'm not too worried about spring and summer and neither are health authorities.

But come fall/winter, especially when schools open again, beware. The bigger problems are likely coming in October - February.


----------



## andrewf

KaeJS said:


> Happy unmasking day.
> 
> Went to the grocery store. Noticed the same thing as Optsy... About 90% of people still wearing a mask. I saw 2 people not wearing one.
> 
> Crazy. I can't believe people are still wearing them after all this time.


It is really no inconvenience to wear a mask while shopping.

I think the people raging about masks are, frankly, nuts.


----------



## andrewf

I remember in December when many people were claiming omicron was a nothingburger because hospitalizations weren't rising. Some people on this forum. It hit the economy quite hard, just with how many people were sick, in addition to stretching hospital resources more than they had been so far and having the highest daily death rate we've seen. I think maintaining common sense safety precautions while starting to go about your daily life is the right balance. I have gone to bars and restaurants. I tend to prefer less crowded establishments. I avoid crowded, poorly ventilated spaces.


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> I think the people raging about masks are, frankly, nuts.


I believe the people who hate wearing masks have a breath issue and don't want to breath their own exhaust. This is not a joke.


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> I believe the people who hate wearing masks have a breath issue and don't want to breath their own exhaust. This is not a joke.


People with medical issues are exempted.

Lots of insane people claiming that masks are killing people. Amazing that health care professionals have been wearing masks for decades and have yet to drop dead en masse.


----------



## HappilyRetired

andrewf said:


> It is really no inconvenience to wear a mask while shopping.
> 
> I think the people raging about masks are, frankly, nuts.


And I think people driving alone in their cars wearing masks are idiots. And anyone who thinks a cloth mask works is both an idiot and a science denier.

I hate masks and only wore them when I was forced to to be able to participate in society. Now I refuse to do business with any company that demands a mask...I'll just go elsewhere.


----------



## andrewf

HappilyRetired said:


> And I think people driving alone in their cars wearing masks are idiots.


Maybe I'm such an idiot. I would often forget to take off my mask while driving home from the grocery store because I didn't even really notice it. Maybe you are the kind of snowflake you probably complain about making a big deal out of similar nothingburger first world problems. I think people who hate masks must have had very poor coping skills for dealing with the pandemic. It was psychologically taxing but the masks were far from the worst part.


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> People with medical issues are exempted.


I know many of the people who work the immunization clinics and a couple of physicians at the hospital. I asked about the medical exemption because 10% of people indicate they have it. I am told that, in SK, a medical exception from wearing a mask will still have them wearing a shield/deflector.

Quick anecdote and the reason I asked about the medical exemption:

In early December, I was in line at a pharmacy and a guy came into the store with no mask. The guy at the register said, "Mask please." Response, "Medical exemption."

This man then proceeded to walk to the pharmacy order desk where he was again asked to wear a mask and he again cited, "Medical exemption." He tried to go to the front of the line, also.

The pharmacist said, "No problem. We have a process for this. Wait outside and call the pharmacy number. We will take your order and walk it out to you when you it is ready.

It was a beautiful moment in my life because it was -25C with a howling wind. lol!


As best I can tell, 0% of the people who claim to have a medical exemption actually do have a medical exemption. IMO, refusing to wear a mask has all the maturity of throwing a tantrum in attempt to avoid going to bed.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> And I think people driving alone in their cars wearing masks are idiots. And anyone who thinks a cloth mask works is both an idiot and a science denier.
> 
> I hate masks and only wore them when I was forced to to be able to participate in society. *Now I refuse to do business with any company that demands a mask...I'll just go elsewhere.*


 ... those companies won't be missing your business (nor your employment if you were). At least not in Toronto where the "mandate" has been lifted (March 21, 2022). LMAO.


----------



## HappilyRetired

andrewf said:


> Maybe I'm such an idiot. I would often forget to take off my mask while driving home from the grocery store because I didn't even really notice it. Maybe you are the kind of snowflake you probably complain about making a big deal out of similar nothingburger first world problems. I think people who hate masks must have had very poor coping skills for dealing with the pandemic. It was psychologically taxing but the masks were far from the worst part.


I doubt you forgot you were wearing a mask. You kept it on because it was a security blanket and you wanted people to see you wearing it. It wasn't medically necessary so you wore the mask to send a message to anyone who saw you.


----------



## Beaver101

Legacy and language around masks will be debated long after pandemic recedes: experts



> _ Hina, Alam, _*The Canadian Press, *_Thursday, March 24, 2022
> ...
> Along with vaccines and social distancing, she said masks still remain one of the most important layers of protection that help slow down the spread of the virus.
> 
> *The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention collated data that was released last December, which said if the number of people wearing masks increased by 15 per cent, it could prevent the need for lockdowns and reduce financial losses.*
> 
> Prof. Steven Taylor of the University of British Columbia's department of psychiatry said it is important to understand that masks are a key tool in the fight against the virus.
> 
> "For example, if we had to rely on just lockdowns, that would have negative impacts on the economy and negative impacts on people's mental health because people would be isolated or crowded and so forth," he said.
> ...
> 
> Taylor is the lead author of a February 2021 study looking at the effectiveness and negative attitudes toward masks. The study found 84 per cent wore masks because of COVID-19, while the remaining 16 per cent who refused to wear masks were "a small but highly vocal minority."
> 
> While the study didn't look at the reasons for people not wanting to wear masks, he said opinion polls show the justification is that masks are ineffective and uncomfortable.
> 
> The study noted that similar arguments were made over a century ago during the Spanish flu, which saw the formation of the anti-mask league.
> 
> *Being vocally opposed to masks is a personality trait seen in highly individualistic places such as Canada, United States, Europe and Australia*, he said. *It is similar to a three-year-old who challenges authority and refuses to clean his room, he said with a laugh.*
> 
> *"Now it's very cute in a three-year-old.* *It's not so cute in a 30-year-old where you're saying 'Please wear a mask' and they look at you and say 'You're not the boss of me.'"*
> Caroline Colijn, a mathematics professor at Simon Fraser University in Burnaby, B.C.,* said there is enough evidence to show that people who wear masks are less likely to get infected.
> ... *
> At this stage of the pandemic, Taylor said he would like to see mask wearing continue in crowded places, such as public transit, or when someone has a cold.
> 
> *"It's just like, if it's raining, I'm going to pick up an umbrella and go out," he said. "I'm not going to be joining an anti-umbrella group, which would be foolish. So yeah, that makes good practical sense to use a mask when needed without being told to wear them by government."*_


 ... just in time for a dose of common sense. But then some folks don't have any to begin with. At least (thank lord) they are of a minority.


----------



## like_to_retire

HappilyRetired said:


> It wasn't medically necessary so you wore the mask to send a message to anyone who saw you.


Yeah, I went to the grocery store this week and was interested what the ratio of masked versus non-masked would be. I had estimated 50:50, but I was quite wrong (at least at the store I went to). Basically everyone, young and old, still wore the mask. Of course, as you point out, I didn't want to be different than everyone else, so I wore my mask and did my shopping. 

I think it's a combination of tribe mentality and also the habitual nature of us all. After two years it seems strange not to wear it, combined with the fact no one wants to be seen as different from everyone else. It will take time, but it won't be too long before we dump our masks. Certainly, if I went into the store and most weren't wearing the mask, then I wouldn't, since medically, I don't think it's necessary any more. I've been vaccinated 3 times and perhaps a few whiffs of the COVID in the air might actually work to help my immune system. Kinda like playing in the dirt a little bit when you're a kid. It boosts your immune system.

I suspect all this sheltering inside and wearing masks has dumbed down our immunity to colds and the like. We need to be around it for a while to build some immunity. It makes me think of when you travel and you wouldn't dare drink the water or you'd get quite sick, yet the locals are drinking the exact same water and they're fine. We build immunity to bad things when we're exposed slowly over time.

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

My opinion on not wearing a mask has nothing to do with them not being protective. My opinion is that they are too protective for our own good, right now.

When one steps back and looks at the decision to remove the mask mandate in a province like Ontario, for example, one has to ask why they did this? Obviously more people want to wear them then don't. We know they were very effective in reducing transmission although in themselves, cannot stop it completely. So why do you think our leaders decided to remove the mask mandate on March 21, 2022?

I obviously was not present in the meetings for this decision but I have voiced my opinion on what we need to do to end this pandemic quite often. I believe the decision to remove the mask mandate mainly surrounded the ongoing problem of dealing with the unvaccinated. If this group was not going to come forward and do what our society needed them to do (vaccinate) in order to protect our healthcare system for everyone in the province, then a new plan was required to deal with them.

When the healthcare system has the appropriate amount of capacity, remove the vaccine passports and remove masks, from as many people as possible, and hopefully we can get enough spread *to finally infect and inoculate the unvaccinated* and eliminate the huge problem they are causing us, once and for all. They were our last remaining problem that was preventing us from ending this pandemic

I cannot think of any other reason, why our leaders are doing what they are doing, if that is not high on their list. Just my opinion of course.


----------



## Beaver101

^ For posts #1679 & 1680, the mandate has been lifted so you're free to go un-masked to boost your immune systems. 

As for those who want to continue masking, it's their right. Besides, it's so much easier to go into those stores, supermarkets and eateries that still require you to wear one along with public transit, and hospitals.

Strangely, employees of the banks are still wearing one when there's no mandate. Wonder why? The tribal urge there or is it being chicken-sh1t too? How about city hall employees?


----------



## andrewf

HappilyRetired said:


> I doubt you forgot you were wearing a mask. You kept it on because it was a security blanket and you wanted people to see you wearing it. It wasn't medically necessary so you wore the mask to send a message to anyone who saw you.


This is in your head. Who am I performing for driving in the dark? I honestly don't notice the mask for short periods. It's actually quite comfortable when it is cold as I don't use a scarf.


----------



## andrewf

OptsyEagle said:


> My opinion on not wearing a mask has nothing to do with them not being protective. My opinion is that they are too protective for our own good, right now.
> 
> When one steps back and looks at the decision to remove the mask mandate in a province like Ontario, for example, one has to ask why they did this? Obviously more people want to wear them then don't. We know they were very effective in reducing transmission although in themselves, cannot stop it completely. So why do you think our leaders decided to remove the mask mandate on March 21, 2022?
> 
> I obviously was not present in the meetings for this decision but I have voiced my opinion on what we need to do to end this pandemic quite often. I believe the decision to remove the mask mandate mainly surrounded the ongoing problem of dealing with the unvaccinated. If this group was not going to come forward and do what our society needed them to do (vaccinate) in order to protect our healthcare system for everyone in the province, then a new plan was required to deal with them.
> 
> When the healthcare system has the appropriate amount of capacity, remove the vaccine passports and remove masks, from as many people as possible, and hopefully we can get enough spread *to finally infect and inoculate the unvaccinated* and eliminate the huge problem they are causing us, once and for all. They were our last remaining problem that was preventing us from ending this pandemic
> 
> I cannot think of any other reason, why our leaders are doing what they are doing, if that is not high on their list. Just my opinion of course.


The reason they removed the mandates? Because an election is coming. Public health officials are suggesting we continue to mask.


----------



## OptsyEagle

andrewf said:


> The reason they removed the mandates? Because an election is coming. Public health officials are suggesting we continue to mask.


If the decision was based on being reelected they would have maintained the mask mandate. That is my point. More Ontarians want them, then don't. Just go into any retail store today if you don't believe me.

Just give it a little more thought.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> The reason they removed the mandates? Because an election is coming. Public health officials are suggesting we continue to mask.


 ... with one exception - Dr. Moore reporting to father Ford.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> If the decision was based on being reelected they would have maintained the mask mandate. That is my point. More Ontarians want them, then don't. Just go into any retail store today if you don't believe me.
> 
> Just give it a little more thought.


 ... no, the politicians are catering to the loud-mouth minority crybabies using a part-time (with full time on the political side ) top provincial medical officer as a scapegoat. Additionally, we can't have a Freedumb Convoy repeat.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Anyway, my point is that this decision is quite medical in nature but perhaps not in the same medical approach we were accustom to when we were trying to avoid exposure.

Since they obviously intend not to slow down the spread, I suggest anyone concerned keep wearing their masks. The ones who should be concerned is anyone older then 65, or anyone with any comorbity.

It would be best for the rest of us to remove our masks but I am happy with whatever decision anyone wants to make for themselves. There is no wrong answer here, but I will point out that delaying exposure is not necessarily safer, knowing the following:

1) The Omicron variant won't last forever, so give some thought as to which virus will be the safest for you and your family to meet. Omicron or whatever variant comes next...
2) Warm weather will not last forever.
3) Your vaccine immunity will definitely not be getting any stronger, the longer you wait.


----------



## sags

Your plan is missing some critical pieces that have been left unaddressed, like labour shortages in LTC homes and hospitals that will affect the ability to successfully handle another big wave of covid cases, and the supply chain disruptions that occur when infections spread through workplaces as they did in past waves.

We are currently dealing with price inflation due to all the factories, food suppliers, and other companies who had to close their production for weeks due to outbreaks inside their factory walls. Another wave of infections may make the supply chain disruptions even worse.

But, politicians seem determined to ignore the advice from the majority of the medical profession and we will see where that leads us.

Best summer ever or worst case scenario.........only time will tell.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> Best summer ever or worst case scenario.........only time will tell.


Whatever it is, it will be temporary. Omicron is quite infectious and should not make this wave last too long. If we decide to continue to delay, we might as well decide to delay the pandemic end forever.

You pick which is the best long term approach.


----------



## sags

So you claim........but herd immunity hasn't worked anywhere so far.

Allowing the virus to spread with abandon has created a string of mutated variants.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> So you claim........but herd immunity hasn't worked anywhere so far.
> 
> Allowing the virus to spread with abandon has created a string of mutated variants.


Which is exactly what the Coronavirus has done for thousands and thousands of years.

Really, all these people expecting a coronavirus to suddenly act differently than it has in the past were just fooling themselves.

On a positive note, the general trend to a more contagious, less lethal variant is also continuing.

Overall it's proceeding exactly as we should expect.


----------



## sags

Except the speed and number of mutations this virus has produced is at a much faster pace than scientists expected would happen.

There is doubt among many scientists this virus was naturally produced and may be an enhanced version that escaped from the Wuhan lab.

The natural origin of this virus has never been identified, and questions are raised about the "bat cave" theory when the infection didn't start near the caves.

The most logical answer.......given that some Chinese miners went to the bat caves to retrieve samples fell sick, is the virus was transported to the Wuhan lab where "gain of function" experiments were being performed on it before it escaped and was first identified near the market close to the lab.

Maybe the apparent lack of interest to press to identify the origin of the virus is because the virus escaped from the Wuhan lab in China, that was partially funded by the US, and had Canadian scientists working there. I think they all know........but just don't want to reveal it to the public.


----------



## TomB16

I consider investing to be an exercise in research. Reading, learning, trying to understand business cases. My foundational knowledge is narrow but I've tried to understand hundreds of businesses across a wide range of industries.

Somehow, James (and many others) and I have researched COVID and come to diametrically opposed opinions. To be fair, the majority of our ideas conflict with regard to investing, as well.

It's like 100 people add up a column of numbers and come up with 100 different totals.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> So you claim........but herd immunity hasn't worked anywhere so far.


We did not have herd immunity until omicron. The freedom rally contingent kept our vax rate too low for herd immunity.

BTW, the faster the spread rate, the higher the vax rate required to achieve herd immunity so the required vax rate is not a static number.

Now, we are seeing a slower spread of BA.2, despite being more infectious than BA.1. Something is slowing it. Herd immunity.




sags said:


> Allowing the virus to spread with abandon has created a string of mutated variants.


The virus mutated, despite most of the world being on lock down.




sags said:


> Except the speed and number of mutations this virus has produced is faster than scientists expected would happen.


I've read a lot of perspectives on COVID and I don't recall a single prediction/projection of mutation rate.

In fact, I've watched interviews with Canadian provincial and national healthcare "leaders" declare it to be impossible to model the spread of omicron. Meanwhile, the WHO and individual physicians from around the world predicted Canada's peak of BA.1 to the day, back in early January. Originally, this group was dismissed as heretics but now the nay sayers are claiming ownership of this idea. This group was vax and infect back in January, also.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> So you claim........but herd immunity hasn't worked anywhere so far.
> 
> Allowing the virus to spread with abandon has created a string of mutated variants.


There is no eliminating the virus. It will be with us forever. 

I am talking about ending the pandemic. Ending the pandemic is simply relieving the stress on our healthcare system and reducing excess deaths to as low of number as we can while maintaining our ability to live a normal life. That will happen when our population become accustom to this new corona virus. In other words when this virus stops being new. That is the herd immunity I am talking about and the only type that is available to us anymore.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Which is exactly what the Coronavirus has done for thousands and thousands of years.
> 
> Really, all these people expecting a coronavirus to suddenly act differently than it has in the past were just fooling themselves.
> 
> On a positive note, the general trend to a more contagious, less lethal variant is also continuing.
> 
> *Overall it's proceeding exactly as we should expect.*


 ... yep, and even when this "Covid" pandemic is over, expect the flu to continue. No thanks, you can keep it.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Except the speed and number of mutations this virus has produced is at a much faster pace than scientists expected would happen.
> 
> There is doubt among many scientists this virus was naturally produced and may be an enhanced version that escaped from the Wuhan lab.
> 
> The natural origin of this virus has never been identified, and questions are raised about the "bat cave" theory when the infection didn't start near the caves.
> 
> The most logical answer.......given that some Chinese miners went to the bat caves to retrieve samples fell sick, is the virus was transported to the Wuhan lab where "gain of function" experiments were being performed on it before it escaped and was first identified near the market close to the lab.
> 
> *Maybe the apparent lack of interest to press to identify the origin of the virus is because the virus escaped from the Wuhan lab in China, that was partially funded by the US, and had Canadian scientists working there. I think they all know........but just don't want to reveal it to the public.*


 ... that's a possibility (last paragragh in bold). 

Goes with the saying "We (as in the whole wide world) are all in it as in we're own victims and villains".


----------



## TomB16

The odds of the next variant being the same or less severe than omicron are extremely low. I'm glad I had the booster and a subsequent omicron infection. It was no big deal at all. If I hadn't have been trying to be a decent person, I could have easily continued cycling, climbing hills, etc.

I may get COVID again but I am under far, far reduced mortal risk.

Others who delay their exposure to the infection might regret it.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... that's a possibility (last paragragh in bold).


I agree with Sags and yourself, in this regard. There is speculation that Omicron was also engineered to fix the original viral leak.

These scenarios seem unlikely but are interesting to ponder.

If COVID was engineered, then somebody is way, way smarter than the rest of the world's medical scientists. The best the rest of the world could do is develop a mostly effective, short term, vaccine. In order to develop the original virus and maybe even omicron, someone or perhaps AI has to exist that is vastly ahead of the rest of the world. It's possible but I believe unlikely.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> The reason they removed the mandates? Because an election is coming. Public health officials are suggesting we continue to mask.


Exactly. This is now politics interfering with scientific and medical judgement.

That's very dangerous. These politicians (like Ford, Kenney, and especially Moe) aren't working in the public interest.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Exactly. This is now politics interfering with scientific and medical judgement.


Health Canada continues to recommend masking, as published on their web site.

This is a professional opinion but I do not believe it is scientific. Let's be careful to distinguish professional opinion from the scientific method.

Don't bother attacking me. I wear a mask, despite living in a province that has lifted the masking mandate. I do it as a gesture of respect, although I don't normally mask outdoors when I am by myself (just when I forget to take it off). I've also taken three doses of Pfizer and had COVID twice that I am aware of.

Denmark lifted their mask mandate on February 1, 2022. They saw elevated case counts but their healthcare system was not overwhelmed. Some people point to COVID deaths but their death rate is not elevated. The reason people are dying with covid is because there is so much COVID, so someone hit by a car has a chance of dying with COVID.

Speaking of elevated death counts, West Australia. They have had elevated death rate for a couple of months, despite being under lock down. It is a sparsely populated area. They have had near zero COVID for months, with no cases at all many of those days. Despite this, they have an elevated death count.

Instead of digging in with our positions, we should be studying the data. Denmark should have strong herd immunity, having absorbed the omicron wave without restrictions. Time will tell if their approach will put them in a better situation than countries trying to avoid the unavoidable virus.

Meanwhile in China, only about half of their 80+ population has been vaccinated. Their strategy has been to eliminate COVID entirely. In the early days, China lead the world. Now, they appear to have a nightmare scenario of low vaccinations and an unstoppable virus. Again, time will tell how this turns out.


----------



## james4beach

The Ontario covid measurements in the sewage suggests exponential spread is occurring now, doubling every 6 days.

It doesn't mean that a disaster is coming, but it's important for people to realize that covid infections are rising sharply. That means that if you're doing high-risk things (going maskless, mixing with people indoors, any indoor group hangouts) don't be surprised if you catch covid.

BC appears to a bit behind Ontario, with wastewater levels now increasing slightly as well. Ontario is already in a new phase of community spread and my guess is BC will be there in a week or two.


----------



## TomB16

I am confident Ontario will re-implement masking and controls if hospitals are overrun. In the mean time, they are getting a lot of herd immunity quickly.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> I am confident Ontario will re-implement masking and controls if hospitals are overrun. In the mean time, they are getting a lot of herd immunity quickly.


Some of these infected people die, you know. That's the difference in our attitudes.

Any time millions of people are infected, some of them will be injured. Uncontrolled community spread is not a harmless thing.

There's also a lot of lost productivity as people miss work. Instead, if capacity limits were still in place and masks were mandatory, we'd have less sickness, fewer people out sick, missing work. Plus the public places would be safer to go to.

Anyway, I'm just informing people. Omicron is exponentially spreading in Ontario, so adjust your life accordingly. I will be flying into Toronto in a few weeks, and I certainly will have my guard up.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Some of these infected people die, you know. That's the difference in our attitudes.


No, it isn't. The difference is, I've studied COVID extensively.

Omicron is the least lethal COVID variant we have seen and it is unstoppable. We are all going to get it.

First time infections without relevant vaccine have a low but real death rate. The difference in our attitudes is I would like to see people vaccinated and then infected, a few weeks after the vaccine, so they have _extreme_ low chance of dying. We could save a lot of people with that approach.

Most people seem to think if they took the vaccine 8 months ago, they are good to go. The data shows people who were vaccinated in the summer of 2021 have the same severity profile as the unvaccinated.

Just trying to not get it is playing roulette with our mortality.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> First time infections without relevant vaccine have a low but real death rate. The difference in our attitudes is I would like to see people vaccinated and then infected, a few weeks after the vaccine, so they have _extreme_ low chance of dying. We could save a lot of people with that approach.


Society is not a predictable, straightforward system like this. We have immune compromised people among us. There are people with health problems, some with cancer, some on drugs which impair their immune function. There are elderly people whose immune systems cannot handle these kinds of infections, and which didn't respond to vaccination.

It's completely irresponsible for government to allow uncontrolled, exponential infectious disease spread. Yes you're right there there will be a small benefit to many people, but it's also going to kill some vulnerable people.

Public health restrictions are meant to *slow the rate of spread.* This reduces the amount of active infections and the probability of catching it while out in society.

It's the responsibility of government to protect the public from deadly harm. That includes protecting the vulnerable.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> It's completely irresponsible for government to allow uncontrolled, exponential infectious disease spread. Yes you're right there there will be a small benefit to many people, but it's also going to kill some vulnerable people.


Herd immunity will bring a massive benefit to everyone.

Omicron is the most mild variant of the virus. We have vaccines which are extremely effective against omicron. It is unlikely there will ever be a lower risk time to acquire natural immunity.

The number of people who have been vaccinated _within a couple of months_ and died from the virus is near zero. I don't recall the death rate of this scenario but there are a lot of zeros after the decimal point.

Your approach, of delaying the vaccine and trying to avoid infection, is far more risky. You could end up a year out from your initial vaccination so you will have no protection from it. You run a very high risk of catching the virus between now and the fall. You know... the exponential spread thing.... and you will be unprepared. You might as well get in your truck and start driving to Ottawa.

Nobody is advocating taking a shot and then going to the ICU to kiss COVID patients on the mouth. Omicron will spread itself. The idea is: You get the jab, give it 2~3 weeks, and then stop masking. At the moment, it's a radical idea in Canada. Perhaps one day soon, it will not be.

Your thought process defies logic. You are taking needless risk. This is also what the government is advocating and it is completely irresponsible. Perhaps they will revise their approach in time.

Obviously, there are going to be people who need to stay in an omicron avoidance bubble. Nobody is saying COVID exposure is for everyone. I cited Finland earlier. They continue to observe precautions for compromised people and also on any mass transit. That seems sensible to me.

New data could come out suggesting a different approach is optimal but vax/infect seems to be where the data is leading us, right now.


----------



## andrewf

If you were right, the correct approach would be to get vaccinated, then in 2-4 weeks get deliberately infected by a controlled dosevof virus, then isolate while you're infected. I have seen no research supporting such deliberate infection.


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> Herd immunity will bring a massive benefit to everyone.


Yeah, that would be nice, but it's a silly dream, we've never developed herd immunity to the coronavirus, it's existed for thousands of years.

The best we can hope for is that we get successively less lethal variants, and hopefully COVID19 will be treated with chicken noodle soup, like all the other coronaviruses.


----------



## s1231

from this data, not sure need booster or not.
better find out other countries data & compared. ( usa hasn't been updated.)
---


https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> If you were right, the correct approach would be to get vaccinated, then in 2-4 weeks get deliberately infected by a controlled dosevof virus, then isolate while you're infected. I have seen no research supporting such deliberate infection.


No need to isolate. Omicron will take care of the planet... whether we want it to or not.


----------



## sags

Credit where credit is due so......after listening to Doug Ford's press conference they are treading as carefully as they can with re-openings.

It gives some confidence when he shows he is on top of the situation and says he will not be slow to re-instate restrictions if necessary.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Not sure when you heard that news conference but here's the latest from my source (Friday March 25, 2022, 1:16pm last update):

Ford says government has no plans to reimpose COVID restrictions as one epidemiologist warns that 'we are on the cusp of a spring wave'

And I don't like this fibbing promise:



> ... _As for an expected uptick in COVID transmission, Ford pointed to an increased availability of Pfizer’s Paxlovid pill as one of the things that is giving him confidence in the healthcare system’s ability to manage a rise in transmission.
> 
> He said that Ontario has also made investments that will allow it to “ramp up” to 3,000 ICU beds, if need be.
> 
> However, in a message posted to Twitter the medical director of critical care at Michael Garron Hospital Dr. Michael Warner cast doubt on those claims.
> 
> Currently, Critical Care Services Ontario only lists a “total funded ICU bed capacity” of 2,343 for adults. About 70 per cent of those beds are filled.
> 
> *“Those of us who actually work in ICUs know that ramping up to 3,000 beds is not only impossible, but a dangerous thing to say,” Warner said. “It provides false reassurance that we have the person power to manage a surge of that size.”* .... _


 ... father Ford (or more like his top political advisor there) better be right on the low danger of this "wavelet" as his premiership is riding on it.


----------



## sags

Ford is facing an election.........so we will see what the voters think of his handling of the pandemic and removing restrictions.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Voters have short memory so pray his top medical advisor better be right comes June 2nd.


----------



## londoncalling

China locks down the city of Shanghai in extreme bid for COVID zero (msn.com)


----------



## sags

As I posted earlier, our son attended his son's hockey tournament in Toronto a week ago. Now he has covid and is pretty sick.

His wife works at a daycare and had to stay home but the school said send the kids to school.....so they are likely spreading it to other kids and teachers.

Anyone who thinks we aren't going to have a huge wave of infections has their head stuck firmly up their butts.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Father Ford and Dr. Moore, are you paying attention?


----------



## Money172375

sags said:


> As I posted earlier, our son attended his son's hockey tournament in Toronto a week ago. Now he has covid and is pretty sick.
> 
> His wife works at a daycare and had to stay home but the school said send the kids to school.....so they are likely spreading it to other kids and teachers.
> 
> Anyone who thinks we aren't going to have a huge wave of infections has their head stuck firmly up their butts.


Sick at home or sick in hospital. I think the general public has accepted “very sick at home” is ok.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Sick at home or sick in hospital. I think the general public has accepted “very sick at home” is ok.


They should, honestly if it's just a few days of being very sick, but not hospitalized and not dying, that's fine by me.
For some people, kids in particular, the social isolation was absolutely brutal. I'm okay being in rough shape for several days if it means my kids get their lives back.

My not statistically valid survey is that a quarter of people say they were very sick. another quarter said they had mild/no symptoms, and half said it was a fairly decent cold, not really at 100%.

In the recent waves I'm not hearing of very many people getting hospitalized at all.


----------



## TomB16

The US is looking at a second booster (4th shot) to be given four months after the first booster.


----------



## TomB16

Meanwhile, in Shanghai, mass testing has revealed a ratio of 3450 asymptomatic cases versus 50 symptomatic cases.

Most people literally don't know they have omicron.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> As I posted earlier, our son attended his son's hockey tournament in Toronto a week ago. Now he has covid and is pretty sick.
> 
> His wife works at a daycare and had to stay home but the school said send the kids to school.....so they are likely spreading it to other kids and teachers.
> 
> Anyone who thinks we aren't going to have a huge wave of infections has their head stuck firmly up their butts.


Yeah, this stuff absolutely is spreading through the schools and that's been going on for a while.

I'm visiting Winnipeg and talking with my friends. I'm hearing about very widespread covid around here.

The complacency is amazing. Some number of these people are going to have long-lasting covid (with symptoms that exceed a month). People have convinced themselves that covid is harmless which is astounding. It just takes one unlucky mutation for this kind of lazy behaviour to turn into a disaster.


----------



## londoncalling

Long term effects are still unknown. I would prefer to not get covid but the probability is unlikely. I will however take reasonable precautions to avoid catching it. Therefore I have put in a strict protocol to not lick people's eyeballs.  All kidding aside. I will follow the original protocols of handwashing, social distancing and masking when I cannot socially distance or indoors. I have been vaxxed and boosted. I rapid test regularly. I have come in contact with people who have caught Covid during to contagious stage and to date have not caught it. That does not mean I won't get it at some point. I have also limited my visits to my elderly mother who is in average health for her age but still may not avoid hospitalization if she caught Covid. I am at a stage of life where I am content not to be at large scale events. That may change in the future as reopening continues. It would likely be different for me if I was much younger and single. Some argue that by avoiding Covid we are setting up greater risk of harmful effects from another strain. Meanwhile there are people that have gotten various strains yet indicate immunity wanes over time. I am not a scientist. I don't even think the scientific community can agree or guarantee with any accuracy how this virus has acted or how it will act in the future. I am glad that the current variant has high transmission and low severity. It does increase our chances. It may still be risky for some and for that reason I hope we don't see significant variants going forward.


----------



## diharv

james4beach said:


> The complacency is amazing. Some number of these people are going to have long-lasting covid (with symptoms that exceed a month). People have convinced themselves that covid is harmless which is astounding. It just takes one unlucky mutation for this kind of lazy behaviour to turn into a disaster.


People are complacent and getting more so because they are sick and tired of it and probably believe it is never going to end or go away. An endless string of mutations and waves of infections for years on end is probably how it's going to play out, so people are trying to begin to live with it I guess and are done hiding.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Yeah, this stuff absolutely is spreading through the schools and that's been going on for a while.
> 
> I'm visiting Winnipeg and talking with my friends. I'm hearing about very widespread covid around here.
> 
> The complacency is amazing. Some number of these people are going to have long-lasting covid (with symptoms that exceed a month). People have convinced themselves that covid is harmless which is astounding. It just takes one unlucky mutation for this kind of lazy behaviour to turn into a disaster.


Maybe if you stop visiting people you won't be the one who spreads it further.


----------



## sags

Our son is recovering after a couple of very nasty days.

He was late getting vaccinated and received his second dose not long ago, so maybe he still had a high level of protection.

I hope it is over and not one of those cases where people feel fine and then suddenly get very sick again and end up in the hospital.

We shall see what the next few days brings.


----------



## TomB16

TomB16 said:


> The US is looking at a second booster (4th shot) to be given four months after the first booster.


The FDA has approved a fourth shot of both Pfizer and Moderna for individuals 50+.

Immunocompromised people 12+ also approved.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Our son is recovering after a couple of very nasty days.
> 
> He was late getting vaccinated and received his second dose not long ago, so maybe he still had a high level of protection.


Hoping for the best, but really at this point, the anti-vaxxers deserve to get sick. 

Also if he wasn't fully vaxxed, how was he getting his kid to hockey during the rest of hockey season. It isn't like they pulled together the teams in March.


----------



## james4beach

I know of so many people catching covid these days. We're clearly in a new wave. I just got a text message from another friend, about 30 mins ago, saying she's also been sick at home.

Nearly everyone I know (who's sick) has had 3 shots.

Provincial governments are failing in their duty to protect us. They should at least show us data on current case growth, but some provinces (like MB) aren't even publishing the data they have. There are very few things that I demand from government, but one very important job they have is to protect citizens from harm.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I know of so many people catching covid these days. We're clearly in a new wave. I just got a text message from another friend, about 30 mins ago, saying she's also been sick at home.
> 
> Nearly everyone I know (who's sick) has had 3 shots.
> 
> Provincial governments are failing in their duty to protect us. They should at least show us data on current case growth, but some provinces (like MB) aren't even publishing the data they have. There are very few things that I demand from government, but one very important job they have is to protect citizens from harm.


I think Ontario is doing a pretty good job. The data is updated regularly.





Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca





I think I saw that BC had a nice dashboard as well.


As far as their 'duty to protect', I'm not sure what they can do, the death rate for fully vaccinated people is virtually zero.
Ontario data.









I know it's harsh, and I'm still concerned, I'm still wearing a mask, but the death rates are VERY low.

As far as duty to protect us from harm, I don't think COVID is the biggest risk right now.
I think the economic problems are a much bigger issue.
I know far more at risk families than I ever have.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I think there're even bigger problems/issues than the economical ones for some folks - the political ones.


----------



## james4beach

@MrMatt , I agree that ON & BC have decent looking monitoring.


----------



## MrMatt

MrMatt said:


> I think Ontario is doing a pretty good job. The data is updated regularly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid-19.ontario.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I saw that BC had a nice dashboard as well.
> 
> 
> As far as their 'duty to protect', I'm not sure what they can do, the death rate for fully vaccinated people is virtually zero.
> Ontario data.
> FYI the rates of death for those vaccinated under 60, or unvaccinated 5-39, are less than 1 in 10 million.
> Even the only group who can't legally be vaccinated (0-4) is looking at 2 in 10 million.
> 
> 
> View attachment 23009
> 
> 
> I know it's harsh, and I'm still concerned, I'm still wearing a mask, but the death rates are VERY low.
> 
> As far as duty to protect us from harm, I don't think COVID is the biggest risk right now.
> I think the economic problems are a much bigger issue.
> I know far more at risk families than I ever have.


----------



## sags

Doug Ford is smart enough to take his advice from Justin Trudeau. They are the real governing coalition in Canada.

Ford and Trudeau have been pretty much in sync during the pandemic.

I could see a future for Doug Ford as a Liberal MP, as was done by former NDP Premier Bob Rae.









Opinion | Doug Ford and Justin Trudeau are Canada’s real governing coalition


Justin Trudeau and Doug Ford have come together as Canada’s own Odd Couple to give birth to cheap child care in Ontario, the culmination of the prime minister’s promise of a truly national program, Martin Regg Cohn writes.




www.thestar.com


----------



## Beaver101

^ Then who'll be considered the next Ontario Conservative leader? Patrick Brown? John Tory?


----------



## sags

Good question. Either Tory or Brown would be good candidates. I don't see much in the Liberal or NDP parties right now.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I think some folks here, never mind elsewhere (like our MrMatt) are gonna to be very disappointed with Ford's boom-cha-cha over the Lib's spot.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Doug Ford is smart enough to take his advice from Justin Trudeau. They are the real governing coalition in Canada.
> 
> Ford and Trudeau have been pretty much in sync during the pandemic.
> 
> I could see a future for Doug Ford as a Liberal MP, as was done by former NDP Premier Bob Rae.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion | Doug Ford and Justin Trudeau are Canada’s real governing coalition
> 
> 
> Justin Trudeau and Doug Ford have come together as Canada’s own Odd Couple to give birth to cheap child care in Ontario, the culmination of the prime minister’s promise of a truly national program, Martin Regg Cohn writes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thestar.com


Doug Ford isn't taking advice from Trudeau, Ford simply knows how to work WITH people.


----------



## TomB16

[deleted]


----------



## HappilyRetired

TomB16 said:


> Social conservatives make the CPC toxic. They control the CPC the way social conservatives control the Republican party.
> 
> It wouldn't have to be like this. If a thousand (or so) CMF folks joined the CPC and voted for a specific person who believes in base reality, we would likely get that person. The point being, a small number of social conservatives own the party because it is so small.


I don't care. A small amount of people at CBC, Global, and CTV control the media narrative. Basically less than 100 people were responsible for getting Trudeau elected. And they answer to no one.


----------



## like_to_retire

TomB16 said:


> In 2020, I voted for Leslyn Lewis.


I'm confused. You do understand she is a social conservative - right? 

Yet you tell us that: _"Social conservatives make the CPC toxic. They control the CPC the way social conservatives control the Republican party". _

ltr


----------



## TomB16

Yes. She has and continues to pander to social conservatives but her concessions to the faction seem measured.

BTW, sorry for mis-posting that in the COVID thread. It's not like I wanted my opinion to go viral...

I will delete my post. Please ignore it.


----------



## like_to_retire

TomB16 said:


> Yes. She has and continues to pander to social conservatives but her concessions to the faction seem measured.


Seriously, you don't want anything to do with her tendency toward social conservatism. Just endorse Pierre Poilievre and be done with it. He's an excellent candidate.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> I'm confused. You do understand she is a social conservative - right?


She's also quite strong against the systematically racist nanny state/socialist dystopia that the Liberals are trying to implement.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> She's also quite strong against the systematically racist nanny state/socialist dystopia that the Liberals are trying to implement.]


Matters not. She's a social conservative.. Case closed.

ltr


----------



## Money172375

MODS - Can we move these recent posts to the appropriate thread.


----------



## TomB16

Apparently, there is an immunization committee in Quebec that is recommending a fourth vaccine dose for 80+, immunocompromised, long term care residents, and about a handful of long haul truck drivers.

For what it's worth, I'm not against this. It sounds like there is no current plan to administer a universal fourth dose to all Canadians, so that is a welcome bit of good judgement from Health Canada. 

Meanwhile in China, the zero COVID policy which I have mocked as being ridiculous seems to be treading water. It is difficult to know with any clarity, given the limited data I've been able to scrape together but it does seem that COVID is spreading very slowly. It's an impressive feat.

Hong Kong let omicron rage and they back to January levels of COVID and falling extremely fast, if their data is accurate.


----------



## james4beach

I'm hearing from roughly one friend per day, catching covid. It's clearly spreading like wildfire right now.

In the last week, I can count 5 or 6 direct friends who've caught covid. One of my friends also said that it seems like all of his coworkers have it.

One woman texted me about her covid today. She's 40 and triple vaccinated. She writes:
"It's like a hangover, flu and strep throat at the same time."


----------



## Covariance

Same here.


----------



## sags

In an odd set of circumstances, my son claims his covid symptoms are all gone AND his sciatica nerve doesn't hurt anymore.

He thinks covid solved his back problem, but I doubt that. I told him to keep his appointment with the surgeon and get it fixed permanently.


----------



## TomB16

Looks like china is not treading water. Perhaps it was a delay in the stats. They are at a new all time COVID peak and yet they continue their zero COVID policy.

I suspect we are seeing the result of a top-down approach to decision making in China.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I'm hearing from roughly one friend per day, catching covid. It's clearly spreading like wildfire right now.
> 
> In the last week, I can count 5 or 6 direct friends who've caught covid. One of my friends also said that it seems like all of his coworkers have it.
> 
> One woman texted me about her covid today. She's 40 and triple vaccinated. She writes:
> "It's like a hangover, flu and strep throat at the same time."


More than half the people I know have had COVID, a number have long term issues and lung damage, can't taste properly etc. my previous 25%:50%:25% split on severity seems to still be the case for most families that get it.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Doug Ford isn't taking advice from Trudeau, Ford simply knows how to work WITH people.


 ... ie shrewd enough to get their votes. Plus telling his caucus members to better not participate in the leadership on the Fed's level. Ford's way or the highway.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> More than half the people I know have had COVID, a number have long term issues and lung damage, can't taste properly etc. my previous 25%:50%:25% split on severity seems to still be the case for most families that get it.


Sounds like something we should try our best to avoid catching, IMO

Potential heart, lung, or brain damage should not ever be taken lightly.


----------



## kcowan

Here are the results that Pfizer wanted hidden for 75 years:



https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/5.3.6-postmarketing-experience.pdf


----------



## Spudd

kcowan said:


> Here are the results that Pfizer wanted hidden for 75 years:
> 
> 
> 
> https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/5.3.6-postmarketing-experience.pdf


I feel that is an inaccurate assessment of the situation. Besides, the document is nothing damning.


----------



## james4beach

The new COVID wave has started in British Columbia, but the media is failing to report it.

It's visible in the latest wastewater surveillance published yesterday for Vancouver and Richmond. Wastewater virus signals are one of the only real-time indicators we have. Hospitalization numbers will lag by ~ 2 weeks. Considering the timing relative to Ontario, this is very likely the start of the new wave in BC.

These charts can be found in the Situation Reports posted by BC at this site.


----------



## TomB16

New Chinese cases have been going up about 10% per day, according to the data they share. This puts them right around beginner day-trading return levels.

I expect this will mean further shutdowns and global supply chain issues. My prediction of supply chain issues being solved by late summer were based on China realizing the futility of their zero COVID policy by right about now. It will take about three months for the corn kernels of stopage to work their way through the global supply chain bowel. That prediction now needs to be pushed back.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Response to post #1758: Don't be surprised that your province's "top" medical (part-time medical MD/full time political MD) officer will be going MIA next.

Ontarians have been told (warned) by its Health Minister yesterday with a public 'announcement" on this along with the "plan" for "no restrictions be be re-imposed".

Health minister insists Ontario is 'staying the course' on lifting restrictions amid sixth wave of pandemic

We shall see. Good thing is Ontarians will be voting on June 2. Won't affect the current Health Minister's job but that of her boss plus that part-time MD.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> New Chinese cases have been going up about 10% per day, according to the data they share. This puts them right around beginner day-trading return levels.
> 
> I expect this will mean further shutdowns and global supply chain issues. My prediction of supply chain issues being solved by late summer were based on China realizing the futility of their zero COVID policy by right about now. It will take about three months for the corn kernels of stopage to work their way through the global supply chain bowel. That prediction now needs to be pushed back.


 ... does this mean we back our trucks to the freight-doors of Costco?


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> The new COVID wave has started in British Columbia, but the media is failing to report it.


Why are the third week of June and first week of July in 2021 green on your wastewater chart? Is that because of last year's District 11 Guacamole competition and Granville Island spinach salad festival?


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... does this mean we back our trucks to the freight-doors of Costco?


I recommend having another look at the iShares North American Toilet Tissue Arbitrage Fund. That fund might wipe the market clean in the next few months.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Nah, I wouldn't worry about the market(s) being wiped clean. We still got the old young Bitties to back us up. Besides, we have to by-pass the Easter bunnies and spring first where everything gets renewed.


----------



## james4beach

People should not dismiss the potential health consequences of catching covid.

I was talking with a friend today, an insurance underwriter. He runs into covid related policy decisions pretty routinely, and told me about one he saw this week. A person in their 40s caught covid and then developed strange, lingering sinus issues. They need to see a specialist. As a result the insurer is denying them [health-related insurance] until there's more information about the new health problem they've developed.

Many people think covid is no big deal, but the insurers know that there's more to this. They are already seeing real examples.

People need to protect themselves and try to avoid catching covid. The new wave has started, and I see tons of maskless people socializing and being reckless on a daily basis.


----------



## kcowan2000

Spudd said:


> I feel that is an inaccurate assessment of the situation. Besides, the document is nothing damning.


it does help to explain all the 40 and 50 yo dying early. And how much of long Covid the result of the vaccine rather that the virus? Remember this is just the first of many releases. If Pfizer had to divulge all the adverse effects, they would need a half-hour tv slot!


----------



## sags

Myocarditis risk higher after Covid infection than Pfizer or Moderna vaccination, CDC finds


Even among the highest risk group, teenage boys, the risk of cardiac conditions was higher after Covid infection than Pfizer or Moderna vaccination.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> People should not dismiss the potential health consequences of catching covid.
> 
> I was talking with a friend today, an insurance underwriter. He runs into covid related policy decisions pretty routinely, and told me about one he saw this week. A person in their 40s caught covid and then developed strange, lingering sinus issues. They need to see a specialist. As a result the insurer is denying them [health-related insurance] until there's more information about the new health problem they've developed.
> 
> Many people think covid is no big deal, but the insurers know that there's more to this. They are already seeing real examples.
> 
> People need to protect themselves and try to avoid catching covid. The new wave has started, and I see tons of maskless people socializing and being reckless on a daily basis.


 ...in all fairness to the likes of kcowan2000's POVs, your friend should also be studying the adverse effects of the vaccines in conjunction when making his professional decision(s).


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Myocarditis risk higher after Covid infection than Pfizer or Moderna vaccination, CDC finds
> 
> 
> Even among the highest risk group, teenage boys, the risk of cardiac conditions was higher after Covid infection than Pfizer or Moderna vaccination.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


 ... well, one gets to choose between the lesser of 2 evils - catch Covid and take your chance. Or alternatively get vaxxed and take your chance too.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ...in all fairness to the likes of kcowan2000's POVs, your friend should also be studying the adverse effects of the vaccines in conjunction when making his professional decision(s).


He doesn't study this himself, the recommendations come from doctors and the teams which look at the statistics.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> He doesn't study this himself, the recommendations come from doctors and the teams which look at the statistics.


 .. needless to say, the recommendations wouldn't be coming from an independent field of experts (medical and statistical).


----------



## TomB16

I don't completely share Kevin's point of view, but we aren't so far apart...

It has become clear that extremely significant Pfizer data has been withheld from publication of safety data. Specifically, deaths. I'd like someone to explain to me how safety data can not include some relevant death information. Imagine how much BS would be required to obfuscate that one. Fortunately, court ordered disclosure has brought a bit of this data to light ahead of the 75 year voluntary disclosure.

Meanwhile, anti-vaxers do seem motivated to blame vaccines for everything they see wrong with the world. This is clearly a myopic point of view.

There are a lot of problems out there. When you start looking for problems and use the vaccine as a default responsibility center, it's going to look really bad.

I'd like to see a massive safety study done with a placebo. I promise you, there would be multiple deaths and countless people who will never be able to play the piano again.

Studying the data, I have come to the conclusion that very few people have actually studied the data. Thankfully, there is a global, loose, network of physicians and smart people who do study the data and have been on the mark with COVID for the last 18 months. When my provincial health minister declared COVID spread profiles as being unpredictable, my first thought was they should read some articles, watch some YouTube, and educate themselves because there are people who have proven they *do* know.

Although, the data interpreters I trust have been less certain of what will happen after BA.1, in terms of specific dates and peaks. Their predictions have become more general. There isn't much testing and we also have some bad data corrupting our ability to determine herd immunity. That is likely a sign of endemicity but time will tell who is right, in that regard.


----------



## TomB16

Here are some conclusions I have come to. This ought to provide plenty of munitions for attack. Do your best, gentlemen.

This argument isn't black and white. It's more off-white on the side of the health networks while Joe Six Pack has been very dark gray. Our medical system got it mostly right. Kudos to them.

The issue for me is how uninformed our healthcare has been, on occasion. This, even when the information has been available. They are supposed to be right up to date on their knowledge. Anything less is unacceptable considering the vaccine was all but mandated. Ask a vaccine clinic nurse how many people died during the vaccine trials and since. Ask them the efficacy of the vaccine. I don't hold them responsible as they are a conduit but they have been presenting incorrect information that comes from biased sources, long after better information has been available.

Meanwhile, I am observing two interesting legal contests. In one, non-vaxers forced to take weekly PCR testing look like they will be reimbursed for this testing by their company. In the other, a group of people who were fired for non-vaxing look very likely to be re-hired.

My point of view is our healthcare system should be able to mandate vaccines in emergency situations. Employers should be able to keep anti-vax people away from their workforce and the public, since they are responsible. But, if they are going to do these things, they should be liable for their mistakes. At least, limited liability. If they declare themselves knowledgeable, and they are not, that ought to be held to account and this factor should come into the decision process during the next crisis.


I've had COVID twice, despite having three shots of Pfizer. The last shot was 30 days prior to my second infection so I assume it was still doing good work in my system. I know several people, not just my wife, who have had breakthrough infections. While we were in Mexico, *all* of the expats in our building (a group of about 25 people) had a persistent cough at some point during their stay (All were vaxed. All were 55+ people, like my wife and I).

What does this mean for my Twinrix vaccination? I was told it is 97% effective but it is now clear this is misleading to the point of being wrong. Their web site reads, "97% of people have antibodies one month after the 2nd dose of vaccine." It does not say the vaccine reduced the risk of hep-a/b by 97%.


At this point, it is crystal clear that people who are extremely fit (runners, cyclists, gym rats, etc.) did far, far better than people who looked for a healthcare solution. Why aren't we beating this drum? Fitness and decent nutrition are still the very best sources of health we have for the vast majority of conditions and for the vast majority of people. Healthcare is desperately needed but it does not substitute for us taking care of ourselves.


----------



## sags

Even though the BA2 variant appears to be more infectious, but no more deadly than the Omicron and infections are rising rapidly, hospitalizations are slowly creeping up and deaths are become fewer........this is a continuing constant problem for employers. 

Employers from hospitals to schools to LTC homes to factories and retail stores are having staffing issues with a constant stream of infected employees calling in sick.

The worst part is re-infections and quarantine when others in the family get sick........one at a time. One this week, another next week, another the week after that.

People are missing work but it isn't putting them over the financial edge just yet because the Ontario government reimburses 3 full days pay back to employers when they pay employees. Then the Federal government program pays benefits.

Point is that people are getting money so they can and should stay home, but what happens when that support stops. The other side of the question is how are employers going to cope with half their workforce off sick all the time.

Interesting times.


----------



## Money172375

A school in our board shut its doors yesterday due to staff shortages.


----------



## sags

Hospitals in the Niagara region report being overwhelmed with an influx of patients and staff being off sick.

Nurses complain they can't take the time to have lunch, or there is no ICU nurses available on some shifts.

We aren't seeing the problems happening behind the scenes, and the government has just given up trying to control the spread of infection.


----------



## TomB16

I've been critical of China's zero COVID policy, suggesting they should vaccinate regionally and then lift restrictions.

They haven't mandated vaccination. Their 80+ community is only 50% vaccinated.

I was just reading they have launched an ad campaign to encourage older people to get vaccinated. Perhaps zero COVID is just an attempt to buy as much time as possible for the 80+ community before easing restrictions.

According to their numbers, COVID infections continue to expand at roughly 10% daily. That's an impressive number, in light of BA.2.


----------



## Beaver101

XE Variant of Coronavirus: 'Highly Transmissible' Omicron Strain Evades Detection | Know the Details


----------



## andrewf

So, three weeks after being mandated back to the office, I just found out that my 2up manager (aka boss' boss), with whom I spent most of the day Friday in maskless meetings, tested positive for COVID after returning from a trade show in the US this week. 

Absolutely unsurprised if work ends up being how I contract COVID.


----------



## Spudd

kcowan2000 said:


> it does help to explain all the 40 and 50 yo dying early. And how much of long Covid the result of the vaccine rather that the virus? Remember this is just the first of many releases. If Pfizer had to divulge all the adverse effects, they would need a half-hour tv slot!


What 40 and 50 yo dying early? I haven't heard of this. Can you provide a source?


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> So, three weeks after being mandated back to the office, I just found out that my 2up manager (aka boss' boss), with whom I spent most of the day Friday in maskless meetings, tested positive for COVID after returning from a trade show in the US this week.
> 
> Absolutely unsurprised if work ends up being how I contract COVID.


 ... don't be surprised that you're asymptomatic in which case it's back to work/business as usual as per your boss and his/her boss.

If not and you came down with (bad) symptoms, just make sure you get paid for being sick.


----------



## Spudd

TomB16 said:


> At this point, it is crystal clear that people who are extremely fit (runners, cyclists, gym rats, etc.) did far, far better than people who looked for a healthcare solution. Why aren't we beating this drum? Fitness and decent nutrition are still the very best sources of health we have for the vast majority of conditions and for the vast majority of people. Healthcare is desperately needed but it does not substitute for us taking care of ourselves.


I don't think there are any randomized controlled trials pitting extremely fit people against vaccinated people, so how do you know that it's crystal clear?

Secondly, public health has been trying for as long as I've been alive to beat the drum of fitness and decent nutrition, but people don't listen. When I was a kid, those Participaction bits on TV were commonplace. I don't watch ads anymore so I don't know if they're still going. But I do know that public health is constantly trying to get people to exercise and eat healthy. People just don't do it.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> But I do know that public health is constantly trying to get people to exercise and eat healthy. *People just don't do it*.


 ... symptoms of a "modern" society - particularly one with a capitalist culture.


----------



## TomB16

Spudd said:


> I don't think there are any randomized controlled trials pitting extremely fit people against vaccinated people, so how do you know that it's crystal clear?


I'm not aware of scientific proof but it wouldn't surprise me if there is some data on the idea. It is empirically obvious to me, however.

Have you ever been in a running/cycling/swimming/fitness group? If so, do you have knowledge of any of them being sick with cold/flu? Weird, eh?

I speculate 75~80% of healthcare is dedicated to 100% preventable illness.

How many people suffering from diabetes would we have if people ate well and exercised? Some people dealing with type 2 diabetes can literally cure themselves with nutrition/exercise/weight loss.

Stress problems? Blood pressure? Cholesterol?

Drug addictions? Show me a fit and healthy person with a drug addiction beyond caffeine.

How many hospitalizations are directly related to alcohol? It's a non-trivial number.


No need to take care of ourselves when we can keep doing it wrong and go to a doctor. lol!


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> XE Variant of Coronavirus: 'Highly Transmissible' Omicron Strain Evades Detection | Know the Details


I think XE is a combination of Omicron BA.1 and Omicron BA.2.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I think XE is a combination of Omicron BA.1 and Omicron BA.2.


 ... yep and soon to a province near you!


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> So, three weeks after being mandated back to the office, I just found out that my 2up manager (aka boss' boss), with whom I spent most of the day Friday in maskless meetings, tested positive for COVID after returning from a trade show in the US this week.
> 
> Absolutely unsurprised if work ends up being how I contract COVID.


Covid is running rampant through offices, according to what I'm hearing from my circle of friends throughout Canada and the US.

Everyone I know (who has a choice) is opting to work from home. If I was required to work in an office, personally I would wear a mask all day. When I walk through business districts and see, through office windows, how people are having maskless meetings indoors I'm absolutely blown away.


----------



## sags

Laboratory created "gain of function" enhanced coronavirus is the gift that keeps on giving.

China isn't stupid. They know what the virus is and that is why they lock down as tight as they can.


----------



## sags

Some doctors and medical experts who supported removing restrictions are now questioning if they should be reinstated.

The numbers are getting scary and hospitals report they are at capacity with the staff they still have.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Covid is running rampant through offices, according to what I'm hearing from my circle of friends throughout Canada and the US.


Funny you mention this. I met some colleagues for lunch last week and got a call this morning to mention that some folks in the group tested positive for COVID while others are feeling lousy but still test negative.

I still feel fine but I'm only a few days out. We had Omicron in late January so we will see how that immunity bears up against the current infection that is circulating.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> Some doctors and medical experts who supported removing restrictions are now questioning if they should be reinstated.


I highly doubt doctors and medical experts declared that restrictions should be removed and never return. Conservative politicians, perhaps. lol.

These decisions are based on the data of the moment and the data can change quickly.


----------



## andrewf

Beaver101 said:


> ... don't be surprised that you're asymptomatic in which case it's back to work/business as usual as per your boss and his/her boss.
> 
> If not and you came down with (bad) symptoms, just make sure you get paid for being sick.


I can (and do) work from home. We were mandated back to the office part-time for soft 'culture' and 'collaboration' reasons.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> Covid is running rampant through offices, according to what I'm hearing from my circle of friends throughout Canada and the US.
> 
> Everyone I know (who has a choice) is opting to work from home. If I was required to work in an office, personally I would wear a mask all day. When I walk through business districts and see, through office windows, how people are having maskless meetings indoors I'm absolutely blown away.


It is quite tiresome to speak in meetings with a mask on. So many people don't bother. At my workplace, you are free to wear a mask but no one is obligated to wear one. This results in peer pressure to go maskless due to the stream of 'huh?' or 'could you repeat that?' that masks cause. This is why I found online WFH calls a dream for collaboration. Everyone has a pretty high quality mic, usually with minimal background noise, and it is not necessary to wear a mask. We're being told to work face to face for touchy-feely reasons, but I am forced to choose between making those face to face meetings much less effective that remote meetings by wearing a mask, or going maskless and increasing everyone's risk of viral transmission.

I'm not a hermit but I don't see a compelling reason to take on this risk, just to make the C suite happy.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> I can (and do) work from home. *We were mandated back to the office part-time for soft 'culture' and 'collaboration' reasons.*


 ... well, either you tell your C-suite to take a hike or they'll tell you to take a hike eventually if you go anti-mandate or anti-collaborative. 

Alternative is go the Diamond & Diamond way if you come down with a case of BAD Covid.


----------



## Money172375

Can’t seem to find it now, but I saw a chart last week that compares Ontario vs Quebec trends. Nearly identical. Not sure if it was accurate but Quebec still has a mask mandate and Ontario doesn’t. Just playing devils advocate. Masks may not work as well as we all hope. Or maybe it’s the anti maskers in Quebec getting sick. I believe they work a little, but in reality, they are often I’ll fitting or removed for eating/drinking…which completely negates their use.


----------



## TomB16

FWIW, I think hand washing is the most effective tool against the spread of COVID, including sanitizing gel and masks.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> I'm not a hermit but I don't see a compelling reason to take on this risk, just to make the C suite happy.


Yeah we should keep in mind that business owners and high level manages don't have much at stake (personally) when they throw employees into the office. For the older managers, it's a more convenient environment for monitoring/managing employees and more comfortable, because that's what they are used to.

It's not worth endangering your health for the sake of the company.

I would also be concerned that people who are feeling run down / sick / borderline sick would be coming into the office. Office culture pressures people to do this.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Can’t seem to find it now, but I saw a chart last week that compares Ontario vs Quebec trends. Nearly identical. Not sure if it was accurate but Quebec still has a mask mandate and Ontario doesn’t. Just playing devils advocate. Masks may not work as well as we all hope. Or maybe it’s the anti maskers in Quebec getting sick. *I believe they work a little, but in reality, they are often I’ll fitting or removed for eating/drinking…which completely negates their use.*


 ... I think we went through this before in the early pages of this thread or possibly in the 2020 and 2021 threads. Anyhow, what do you suggest for andrewf's situation? Start with his employer first since you're pro-employer.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> FWIW, I think *hand washing is the most effective tool against the spread of COVID, including sanitizing gel and masks.*


 ... sorry but I'm LMAO.

I would love to blow up your comment / quote above in the largest font(s) available and stick it on the washroom doors' at every place of employment.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Yeah we should keep in mind that business owners and high level manages don't have much at stake (personally) when they throw employees into the office.


For some reason, HR and executives want to take total control of every situation. Shame on anyone who allows this.

20 years ago, I had knee surgery. I returned to work after a couple of days, on crutches, and asked for a desk on a floor with an elevator. Normally, I worked on a secure floor, only accessible by stair. A VP told me I had to walk the stair and get to my desk or I would be sent home without pay. HR were equally moronic.

I ended up going home and couriered a letter to the office and my lawyer, asking for accommodation on an elevated floor. They had tons of space and I could have easily done my job from another floor. HR responded that arthroscopic surgery was good for three days off so I had one more day to not be at my desk before termination.

These are the situations in which people make bad judgements. We are inclined to "go along". The last thing we should do is "go along". This is what lawyers are for. We need to force HR departments and management to do their jobs properly, every bit as much as they need to force people under their control to do their jobs properly.

Take medical advice only from your physician or, in this case, public health people.

This story ends well. I ended up staying home for two weeks and then returned to work with no mention of the event again. Nothing went to court. Oddly, my physician would have provided a sick note for as long as I wanted but I was ready to return. My knee is fine, to this day. I worked at that place for 15 years before leaving for greener pastures (should have left earlier).

I share this as a cautionary tale for less assertive workers. Don't risk your health for anyone, including management. If you get fired for making a choice that can even remotely be connected to safety, your lawyer will make that event a positive financial milestone in your life. You probably won't get rich from the event but you will not be disadvantaged, at least.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... sorry but I'm LMAO.
> 
> I would love to blow up your comment / quote above in the largest font(s) available and stick it on the washroom doors' at every place of employment.


Dude, it's brutal. People are animals. lol!

Hand washing and not touching your face should be taught at the grade two level. Wait... they are....


BTW, washing your hands *before* applying sterilizing gel makes the gel far more effective. It's never bad to wash your hands.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> These are the situations in which people make bad judgements. We are inclined to "go along". The last thing we should do is "go along". This is what lawyers are for. We need to force HR departments and management to do their jobs properly, every bit as much as they need to force people under their control to do their jobs properly.
> 
> Take medical advice only from your physician or, in this case, public health people.


A really good story and excellent message here!

Don't just "go along" with workplace instructions, managers, HR.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ... I think we went through this before in the early pages of this thread or possibly in the 2020 and 2021 threads. Anyhow, what do you suggest for andrewf's situation? Start with his employer first since you're pro-employer.


I wouldn’t say I’m pro employer. But I think most people and most organizations are reasonable. A simple discussion with a manager of HR would likely resolve this. Either in allowing you to work from home or making accommodations while at work. I should say that this mostly reputable organizations that frequently appear on “too employer” lists. Lists that most people ignore when choosing a job. Often, too focused on salary and vacation times.

People are too quick to make assumptions about lack of employee rights. I once had an employee ask for a day off. I asked what for? He said, why do you need to know? I said, “I’m not trying to be intrusive, but there are many options to take a day off AND get paid. let me show you.“. I was quick to give people paid time off, but I always pointed them to the policy where there was probably over a dozen allowable options for both paid and unpaid leaves. 

Working physically in the office will probably be very fluid for the rest of 2022. At some point, we hope the general risk such that it’s safe for everyone. At some point, perhaps when this is endemic, I could see employees having to medically justify their requests. Just as they do for other accommodations. Nothing unusual.

a former colleague of mine with underlying conditions worked in a branch. The bank paid her for 18 months to sit at home due to the risk of her working indoors with the public. After that, she retired. Perhaps an employee not so near retirement would be given the option of a new role that allowed them to work remotely.


----------



## Money172375

Ano


TomB16 said:


> For some reason, HR and executives want to take total control of every situation. Shame on anyone who allows this.
> 
> 20 years ago, I had knee surgery. I returned to work after a couple of days, on crutches, and asked for a desk on a floor with an elevator. Normally, I worked on a secure floor, only accessible by stair. A VP told me I had to walk the stair and get to my desk or I would be sent home without pay. HR were equally moronic.
> 
> I ended up going home and couriered a letter to the office and my lawyer, asking for accommodation on an elevated floor. They had tons of space and I could have easily done my job from another floor. HR responded that arthroscopic surgery was good for three days off so I had one more day to not be at my desk before termination.
> 
> These are the situations in which people make bad judgements. We are inclined to "go along". The last thing we should do is "go along". This is what lawyers are for. We need to force HR departments and management to do their jobs properly, every bit as much as they need to force people under their control to do their jobs properly.
> 
> Take medical advice only from your physician or, in this case, public health people.
> 
> This story ends well. I ended up staying home for two weeks and then returned to work with no mention of the event again. Nothing went to court. Oddly, my physician would have provided a sick note for as long as I wanted but I was ready to return. My knee is fine, to this day. I worked at that place for 15 years before leaving for greener pastures (should have left earlier).
> 
> I share this as a cautionary tale for less assertive workers. Don't risk your health for anyone, including management. If you get fired for making a choice that can even remotely be connected to safety, your lawyer will make that event a positive financial milestone in your life. You probably won't get rich from the event but you will not be disadvantaged, at least.


care to share more details? Industry? Size of company? National? Regional? Reading this is shocking to me. Notwithstanding TD’s other issues or short-term culture missteps, I found their HR policies very flexible, adaptable And accommodating. Lots of “modern day” health benefits and alternate work options. All available online for anyone to see and research.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> I wouldn’t say I’m pro employer. But I think most people and most organizations are reasonable. *A simple discussion with a manager of HR would likely resolve this.* Either in allowing you to work from home or making accommodations while at work.


 ... first, I hope you do realize in the actual world that manager of "HR" takes direction from the head of the other department.


> I should say that this mostly reputable organizations that frequently appear on “too employer” lists. Lists that most people ignore when choosing a job. Often, too focused on salary and vacation times.


 ... don't know what's your point here to assist andrewf's situation.



> People are too quick to make assumptions about lack of employee rights.


 ... no, it's not a lack of employee rights, it's not knowledgeable or vocal about it.


> I once had an employee ask for a day off. I asked what for? He said, why do you need to know? I said, “I’m not trying to be intrusive, but there are many options to take a day off AND get paid. let me show you.“. Most of the I was quick to give people paid time off, but I always pointed them to the policy where there was probably over a dozen allowable options for both paid and unpaid leaves.


 ... sure, I wish I had you as a manager.

If I was a manager, either I would've been trained to ask the right questions. Or told to refer to the manager's training manual on asking the employee's rationale for the day off. Not providing loopholes for the day off unless that employee was a favourite of yours which happened alot in the companies I worked for. Promotions get bypassed, not based on in/competency but who you know. Good looks help alot too.



> Working physically in the office will probably be very fluid for the rest of 2022. At some point, we hope the general risk such that it’s safe for everyone. At some point, perhaps when this is endemic, I could see employees having to medically justify their requests. Just as they do for other accommodations. Nothing unusual.


 .. how fluid is it in andrewf's case btw? He has been "mandated" to return to the office in person after so many months of WFH so he can fulfill's his boss' need for "collaboration".

Also, "hope" of downplaying the risk is not a strategy.

The pandemic could possibly never end, never mind achieving an endemic.

I mean it could effectively "end" today if our politicians and "their medical" advisors say so.

And there you go with the "medically justify their requests" with WFH to migitiate his risks. So how is andrewf gonna to do that unless he comes down with symptoms, now he has come in contact with a "known" Covid case.



> a former colleague of mine with underlying conditions worked in a branch. The bank paid her for 18 months to sit at home due to the risk of her working indoors with the public.


 ... I'm sure your bank would not just willy-nilly pay her to sit at home for some willy-nilly medical condition of hers without a "medical justifications of full disclosure". If it was so easy to get paid for doing nothing, then why don't you give it a try?



> After that, she retired. Perhaps an employee not so near retirement would be given the option of a new role that allowed them to work remotely.


 ... I'm sure she would be forced to retired if she can't return to work due to her medical condition.

Hell, one of my bank financial advisor/planner (the longest one I worked with) was forced out of her position after suffering a personal set back. She was re-stated to another position only after she went to get legal help. So much for support from "her employer", the "big bank (OMG)". If that's not only bad, the big bank didn't even have a decency to notify its customers (aka me) who was going to handle her accounts in absence.

Btw, what does "retirement" has to do with working remotely for a young person like andrewf? Unless you're implying "retirement" (aka firing) is the only option for not following an employer's mandate.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> .. how fluid is it in andrewf's case btw? He has been "mandated" to return to the office in person after so many months of WFH so he can fulfill's his boss' need for "collaboration".


The flag beside his post also shows he's posting from the US so I'm guessing he works for a US company. Generally, Americans are more care-free about covid and also place higher priority on business than human life / wellbeing... that's a cultural thing for Americans. I'm not saying it's andrewf's values, but rather the values of American business owners and managers.

Keep in mind that the US has about 3x the death rate as Canada, per capita.

A friend of mine recently look a remote software job for a US company. They are asking him to fly, repeatedly, to the US to join various sessions and networking events in crowded California offices, and also are planning group trips to Mexico. All of this is insanely stupid IMO but very "American".


----------



## Money172375

I’ll just address the “medically justify” the request. As an axample, I would suggest that someone with conditions that are listed by NACI as immunocompromised would have little difficulty getting an accommodation. Those with active cancer treatments, lung disease etc. I’m not saying that employers currently should be asking for “proof” of risk or illness. But at some point over the next year, I don’t think this is an unreasonable request. Do we believe that getting medical exemption requests verified is off side? The rare time I faced this as a Manager, we never used the bank‘s doctors. We relied on info provided by the employees health team. And we never saw the details. Was all managed through the insurance company.

and I would love to see the emails and documents that are “mandating“ return.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Dude, it's brutal. People are animals. lol!
> 
> Hand washing and not touching your face should be taught at the grade two level. Wait... they are....
> 
> 
> BTW, washing your hands *before* applying sterilizing gel makes the gel far more effective. It's never bad to wash your hands.


 ... hey,. some animal people needs to be reminded, repeatedly, if not taught all over. Eg. like my ex-boss, a grown (maybe over over-grown) woman who can't bother washing her hands after using the toilet. * GROSS to the nth degree.*


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> The flag beside his post also shows he's posting from the US so I'm guessing he works for a US company. Generally, Americans are more care-free about covid and also place higher priority on business than human life / wellbeing... that's a cultural thing for Americans. I'm not saying it's andrewf's values, but rather the values of American business owners and managers.
> 
> Keep in mind that the US has about 3x the death rate as Canada, per capita.
> 
> A friend of mine recently look a remote software job for a US company. They are asking him to fly, repeatedly, to the US to join various sessions and networking events in crowded California offices, and also are planning group trips to Mexico.* All of this is insanely stupid IMO but very "American".*


 ... life or $$$. We decide.

No doubt, the pandemic is an (wide) eye-opener.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Ano
> 
> care to share more details? Industry? Size of company? National? Regional? Reading this is shocking to me. Notwithstanding TD’s other issues or short-term culture missteps, I found their HR policies very flexible, adaptable And accommodating. Lots of “modern day” health benefits and alternate work options. All available online for anyone to see and research.


 ... perhaps "forced" into being "accommodating", "flexible", "adaptable" now. Even now being the 21st century, you still got stodgies (sic) with the saddest lot being "HR". 

No need for TomB16 to share further details - just go to the Human Rights Commission site, if not a lawyer to tell you why his employer had to accommodate him. He had a clear case of a disability.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... life or $$$. We decide.
> 
> No doubt, the pandemic is an (wide) eye-opener.


But that's the thing. From living there, I know American culture. Nothing has changed... they don't care that they are dropping dead.

I'm serious when I say that they would rather die than stop working and making money. Even if COVID had double the death rate as it has now, I'm confident that Americans would generally still prioritize working and earning money, over their own safety.

The pandemic has taught me that people don't care about their health & life as much as I would have thought.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> But that's the thing. From living there, I know American culture. Nothing has changed... they don't care that they are dropping dead.
> 
> I'm serious when I say that they would rather die than stop working and making money. Even if COVID had double the death rate as it has now, I'm confident that Americans would generally still prioritize working and earning money, over their own safety.


Agreed.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> I’ll just address the “medically justify” the request. As an axample, I would suggest that someone with conditions that are listed by NACI as immunocompromised would have little difficulty getting an accommodation. Those with active cancer treatments, lung disease etc. I’m not saying that employers currently should be asking for “proof” of risk or illness.


 ... isn't a doctor's note sufficient for a few days sick off?


> But at some point over the next year, I don’t think this is an unreasonable request. Do we believe that getting medical exemption requests verified is off side? The rare time I faced this as a Manager, we never used the bank‘s doctors. We relied on info provided by the employees health team. And we never saw the details. Was all managed through the insurance company.


 ... yeah, that would fall under a longer period time off - weeks/months/year(s). In which case the insurance company can handle that. And we know how little information or proof the insurance company (if you would believe this BS). Besides, the employer has no right to know of what's an employee health/medical condition is - that's why there's was a uproar with the vaccine mandate.



> and I would love to see the emails and documents that are “mandating“ return.


 ... I wouldn't disbelieve andrewf. Look no further than public news that TO cityhall workers need to return in person at the office comes April X (changed again), 2022, at least for a couple of days. Help with the mental problems too ... LMAO.


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> FWIW, I think hand washing is the most effective tool against the spread of COVID, including sanitizing gel and masks.


I find this incredibly hard to believe. It is highly infectious through airborne transmission, how could hand washing be that important compared to masking?


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> But that's the thing. From living there, I know American culture. Nothing has changed... they don't care that they are dropping dead.
> 
> I'm serious when I say that they would rather die than stop working and making money. Even if COVID had double the death rate as it has now, I'm confident that Americans would generally still prioritize working and earning money, over their own safety.
> 
> The pandemic has taught me that people don't care about their health & life as much as I would have thought.


 ... so be it. Their decision. Like they can take their doles with them ... LMAO.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> I find this incredibly hard to believe. It is highly infectious through airborne transmission, how could hand washing be that important compared to masking?


 ... virus in the aerosols that land on surfaces whereby you touch them which then enter your systems. Eg. someone blows their nose and don't wash their hands to rid of the live virus. Touches doorknob, the virus is still alive and you touch that doorknob and so now it's on your fingers. And you then go touch your face/nose/mouth which allows the virus an entry.

So hand-washing is just as important as masking. Besides, it's only proper hygiene to eating.


----------



## TomB16

With COVID accelerating, Shanghai has been ordered to test more than 25M people.

I don't see any indication China has any intention to move away from their zero COVID policy.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> The flag beside his post also shows he's posting from the US so I'm guessing he works for a US company. Generally, Americans are more care-free about covid and also place higher priority on business than human life / wellbeing... that's a cultural thing for Americans. I'm not saying it's andrewf's values, but rather the values of American business owners and managers.
> 
> Keep in mind that the US has about 3x the death rate as Canada, per capita.
> 
> A friend of mine recently look a remote software job for a US company. They are asking him to fly, repeatedly, to the US to join various sessions and networking events in crowded California offices, and also are planning group trips to Mexico. All of this is insanely stupid IMO but very "American".


Haha, I was using a VPN at the time. This is a GTA-based employer.

Just to be clear, I'm not looking for 'help'. Just sharing the stupidity. It is very common for large employers in the GTA to be mandating 3 days a week in the office. I am not a special snowflake and I don't feel like making an issue out of this. I do feel that the mandate is premature, I could have seen doing it in warm weather season like May.

I prefer WFH, and maybe once the C suite is satisfied that the office is getting used I can work on reducing office attendance to 1-2 days a week that I think is sufficient for networking etc.


----------



## andrewf

Beaver101 said:


> ... virus in the aerosols that land on surfaces whereby you touch them which then enter your systems. Eg. someone blows their nose and don't wash their hands to rid of the live virus. Touches doorknob, the virus is still alive and you touch that doorknob and so now it's on your fingers. And you then go touch your face/nose/mouth which allows the virus an entry.
> 
> So hand-washing is just as important as masking. Besides, it's only proper hygiene to eating.


It seems very little transmission is happening through fomites compared to airborne transmission. Yes, washing hands is basic hygiene and something you should do. But I doubt it does much to manage your risk of infection for COVID. The people who were lysoling their groceries in 2020 were also wasting their time.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> Haha, I was using a VPN at the time. This is a GTA-based employer.
> 
> Just to be clear, I'm not looking for 'help'. Just sharing the stupidity. It is very common for large employers in the GTA to be mandating 3 days a week in the office. I am not a special snowflake and I don't feel like making an issue out of this. I do feel that the mandate is premature, I could have seen doing it in warm weather season like May.
> 
> I prefer WFH, and maybe once the C suite is satisfied that the office is getting used I can work on reducing office attendance to 1-2 days a week that I think is sufficient for networking etc.


 ... if you want my "honest" opinion, C-suite is seeing all that real estate sitting there empty as wastage more than anything else. This hits the(ir) bottomsline.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Haha, I was using a VPN at the time. This is a GTA-based employer.
> 
> Just to be clear, I'm not looking for 'help'. Just sharing the stupidity. It is very common for large employers in the GTA to be mandating 3 days a week in the office. I am not a special snowflake and I don't feel like making an issue out of this. I do feel that the mandate is premature, I could have seen doing it in warm weather season like May.


Ah, a VPN.

And thanks for the note about the GTA. I'm on my way to Toronto for business, and it's good to know this. I am going to reduce my contacts even more than I originally intended. I'm going to be in a CAN95 mask for business meetings. These things are comfortable enough that I can wear them for hours on end.

Yeah Canadian provinces should have waited for warmer temperatures before going this route. Really stupid to lift restrictions in the middle of winter conditions.


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> I find this incredibly hard to believe. It is highly infectious through airborne transmission, how could hand washing be that important compared to masking?


Virus will concentrate on on door knobs and touch points.

Masks have limited efficacy, particularly against omicron. My understanding is that N95 type are the only masks that have any efficacy at all against omicron.

If someone has better information, I would appreciate them sharing it.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> It seems very little transmission is happening through fomites compared to airborne transmission. Yes, washing hands is basic hygiene and something you should do. But I doubt it does much to manage your risk of infection for COVID. The people who were lysoling their groceries in 2020 were also wasting their time.


 ... "very little transmission" does not equate to "no transmission". 

As for time wastage with lysoling/disinfecting, they ain't wasting yours and so? 

Anyhow, your concern is about "masking" - that's one of the tools available. If you think that's bad, imagine you had to wear a "gas" mask, instead of a lighter cloth/paper one.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Ah, a VPN.
> 
> And thanks for the note about the GTA. I'm on my way to Toronto for business, and it's good to know this. I am going to reduce my contacts even more than I originally intended. I'm going to be in a CAN95 mask for business meetings. These things are comfortable enough that I can wear them for hours on end.
> 
> Yeah Canadian provinces should have waited for warmer temperatures before going this route. Really stupid to lift restrictions in the middle of winter conditions.


 ... well, for Ontario, we know who will be the fall-guys if hospitalisations go up.


----------



## james4beach

I made a mistake earlier when I referred to the new Canadian covid policy as F** the Elderly.

I should have added: F** the Vulnerable

When kids catch covid at school they bring it home, which endangers any vulnerable family members.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/parental-guidance-school-masks-bc-1.6405990


----------



## TomB16

Is anyone else watching China's COVID response like a hawk, since it is the single biggest factor on the global economy right now?

As long as zero-COVID prevails in China, we will have global supply chain issues. If China steps away from zero-COVID, the global economy should lunge forward.

On the other hand, if China clings to zero-COVID for another year or two, we might see countries start making a few things for themselves. Can you imagine that?


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> *Is anyone else watching China's COVID response like a hawk,* since it is the single biggest factor on the global economy right now?


 ... no, unless you happen to have business / employment related there. There's no stopping of China's policy as it's their government, just as it's with our government and every other government on this planet.



> As long as zero-COVID prevails in China, we will have global supply chain issues. *If China steps away from zero-COVID, the global economy should lunge forward. *


 ... not necessarily. If we get into WW3 or an asteroid hits, global supply chain issues is no worry. Other (bigger) problems to worry about.



> On the other hand, if China clings to zero-COVID for another year or two, *we might see countries start making a few things for themselves. *Can you imagine that?


... about time. Maybe it's a silver lining or good thing for that zero-Covid policy.

Bottomline: Confirmation that the pandemic ain't over.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... no, unless you happen to have business / employment related there.


We all have business there.

Haven't you noticed supply shortages at almost any retail establishment that isn't food? We would like to buy a new car but we are on an 8 month wait list. The global supply chain has a broken link and that link is China.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I made a mistake earlier when I referred to the new Canadian covid policy as F** the Elderly.
> 
> I should have added: F** the Vulnerable
> 
> When kids catch covid at school they bring it home, which endangers any vulnerable family members.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/parental-guidance-school-masks-bc-1.6405990


 ... wasn't really a mistake there. The vulnerables do include the elderlies. At least in the early stages of the pandemic.

Anyhow, I recall very clearly that some folks here didn't think kids would be a source of Covid transmission and vice-versa. They're young and would be able to handle it. So be it.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> We all have business there.
> 
> Haven't you noticed supply shortages at almost any retail establishment that isn't food?


 .. yep, a family's member needs a new car battery which will take a 2 months delivery. The body-shop solds his to the highest depositor/bidder. So what are you gonna to do other than wait? 



> We would like to buy a new car but we are on an 8 month wait list. The global supply chain has a broken link and that link is China.


 .. so where's your old car? How about getting your bike out or walking that extra mile to keep fit? Your words. Especially now the weather has improved (at least in TO) - my words here.


----------



## TomB16

I hadn't thought of biking from SK to Vancouver. Perhaps it's time to set up the Norco with some pannier bags. I could further save money by packing a tent, second pair of underwear, and a defibrillator.


----------



## TomB16

A couple of media outlets are trying to make a bombshell out of 11K pages of Pfizer documents that were released on the first of the month. These release of these documents is being forced by court order and they are mandated to release 300+K documents by the end of this year, with some coming on the first of each month.

Anyway, the revelation for those clinging to FDA/CDC/Pfizer is that people who have had a natural infection have exactly the same immunity as people who have had both a natural infection and Pfizer's vaccine. This is contrary to earlier statements from Pfizer (attached).

People following data from WHO, as well as other countries, have known this for the last year.











An actual revelation from the study is the vaccine *may*, in rare cases, make a subsequent COVID infection more severe. I had never read this before.


Let the obfuscation begin! lol!


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I hadn't thought of biking from SK to Vancouver. Perhaps it's time to set up the Norco with some pannier bags. I could further save money by packing a tent, second pair of underwear, and a defibrillator.


 ... how about a plane, train, bus, rental or friend's car instead? And then there's good old Uber - still cheaper than a new car going from SK to Vancouver and possibly back again.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> A couple of media outlets are trying to make a bombshell out of 11K pages of Pfizer documents that were released on the first of the month. These release of these documents is being forced by court order and they are mandated to release 300+K documents by the end of this year, with some coming on the first of each month.
> 
> Anyway, the revelation for those clinging to FDA/CDC/Pfizer is that people who have had a natural infection have exactly the same immunity as people who have had both a natural infection and Pfizer's vaccine. This is contrary to earlier statements from Pfizer (attached).
> 
> People following data from WHO, as well as other countries, have known this for the last year.
> 
> View attachment 23025
> 
> 
> 
> An actual revelation from the study is the vaccine *may*, in rare cases, make a subsequent COVID infection more severe. I had never read this before.
> 
> 
> Let the obfuscation begin! lol!


 ... so, exactly what does those conclusions and revelations do for the average Pfizer-vaxxed person? Sue?


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... so, exactly what does those conclusions and revelations do for the average Pfizer-vaxxed person? Sue?


Pfizer has already been sued. They lost their effort to withhold this data for 75 years. That's why we are seeing this data now.

What would an average person sue them for?

I made it my business to learn what I could about COVID/vaccines/etc. and there were no revelations for me. I'm pretty average. I don't think Pfizer misrepresented the study... much.

If you look back through this thread, you will find people explaining to me that I don't know, haven't read, etc.... tuck that away for future reference. The average layman can educate themselves quite effectively using objectivity and credibility valuation techniques. The average person can never take the place of a physician but it is possible to figure out who to trust, even on extremely complex and nuanced issues.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ... isn't a doctor's note sufficient for a few days sick off?
> ... yeah, that would fall under a longer period time off - weeks/months/year(s). In which case the insurance company can handle that. And we know how little information or proof the insurance company (if you would believe this BS). Besides, the employer has no right to know of what's an employee health/medical condition is - that's why there's was a uproar with the vaccine mandate.
> 
> ... I wouldn't disbelieve andrewf. Look no further than public news that TO cityhall workers need to return in person at the office comes April X (changed again), 2022, at least for a couple of days. Help with the mental problems too ... LMAO.


The TD policy was never to ask for a doctor‘s note. You could take 5 days off in a row before moving to STD at which time the insurer would verify the absence. Employees in my mind, should never be handing doctor’s notes to employers. They have no right to even know who your doctor is.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Pfizer has already been sued. They lost their effort to withhold this data for 75 years. That's why we are seeing this data now.
> 
> What would an average person sue them for?
> 
> I made it my business to learn what I could about COVID/vaccines/etc. and there were no revelations for me. I'm pretty average. I don't think Pfizer misrepresented the study... much.
> 
> If you look back through this thread, you will find people explaining to me that I don't know, haven't read, etc.... tuck that away for future reference. The average layman can educate themselves quite effectively using objectivity and credibility valuation techniques. The average person can never take the place of a physician but it is possible to figure out who to trust, even on extremely complex and nuanced issues.


 ... so really this exercise is of "interest" to you versus mine trying to be pragmatic here.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> The TD policy was never to ask for a doctor‘s note. You could take 5 days off in a row before moving to STD at which time the insurer would verify the absence. *Employees in my mind, should never be handing doctor’s notes to employers. * They have no right to even know who your doctor is.


 ... does your employer not include "HR"?

As for the companies that I have worked for, after 3 days "sick" absence, a doctor's note is required ... and guess who gets the note? HR (if not the manager enquiring about it) so they can assess your absenteeiness (sic). Nothing in the employee's manual about the doctor's note to be sent to the insurance company directly and application of STD.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ... does your employer not include "HR"?
> 
> As for the companies that I have worked for, after 3 days "sick" absence, a doctor's note is required ... and guess who gets the note? HR (if not the manager enquiring about it) so they can assess your absenteeiness (sic). Nothing in the employee's manual about the doctor's note to be sent to the insurance company directly and application of STD.


Don’t hand it over to HR. My experience everything gets sent to the insurer. Then the insurer informs the employer/HR that the illness is substantiated or an accommodation is required. No more details than that other than what type of accommodation is required. HR never knew what the employees condition was or the actual reason of the illness or accommodation. All that being said, most employees offered it up on their own.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Don’t hand it over to HR. My experience everything gets sent to the insurer. Then the insurer informs the employer/HR that the illness is substantiated or an accommodation is required. No more details than that other than what type of accommodation is required. HR never knew what the employees condition was or the actual reason of the illness or accommodation. * All that being said, most employees offered it up on their own.*


 ... there must have been an update with that policy because after a 3 days sick absence, mine "boss" (literally your reporting supervisor/manager) "demands" you bring in a doctor's note to justify a further absence.

He/she does not go on to say "don't give me the note" nor does he/she say " don't give the HR the note" nor does he/she says "only give the note to the (our) insurance company XYZ".

So how is that the employee not able to "volunteer" that information on their own with that kind of "demand"? Ie. the (mine's) employer has already misled the employee.


----------



## bgc_fan

TomB16 said:


> An actual revelation from the study is the vaccine *may*, in rare cases, make a subsequent COVID infection more severe. I had never read this before.
> 
> 
> Let the obfuscation begin! lol!


Easy answer. If we're comparing the first cohort of vaccinated to unvaccinated, we're talking about a group of vulnerable people who are likely to have more severe COVID outcomes than the unvaccinated. So there is a lot of context that is missing, i.e. cohort matching. Instead if you try to normalize everything with an average or looking at everyone as a single unit (all vaccinated (primarily old and immune deficient) vs all unvaccinated (every age range)), you are going to misinterpret what you are seeing.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... how about a plane, train, bus, rental or friend's car instead? And then there's good old Uber - still cheaper than a new car going from SK to Vancouver and possibly back again.


This is true, from the perspective of single use. lol!


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> This is true, from the perspective of single use. lol!


 ... why? Is it more economical to drive from Vancouver (or how about SK) to Gander, NFLD say?


----------



## TomB16

Beaver, did you just chew through a cannabis crop to make a hot box? ... I mean, lodge and dam?

I will share this. My goal is to not own a car, perhaps within 5 years. I hope to join the Tesla Ride Share network. one day (or similar).

This does beg the question, what will happen to a ride share network during a pandemic? Are we all going to get sick from viral cultures on the interior surfaces of a shared automobile? We used buses through this pandemic and it didn't seem to be a particularly strong infection vector but buses are supervised. Who knows what people will do in the back of a car. People are pigs.

I suspect it will be OK, if we are careful, and I also suspect that Tesla has a plan for an effective solution to the problem of viral transmission.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Beaver, did you just chew through a cannabis crop to make a hot box? ... I mean, lodge and dam?


 ... my "why?" above refers to your "single use" perspective. Do you mean you're not going to travel after your SK to Vancouver trip, before your new car gets delivered? If not, then it's not a single use and more economical to fly inter-provincially.



> I will share this. * My goal is to not own a car, perhaps within 5 years.* I hope to join the Tesla Ride Share network. one day (or similar).


 ..ah, but you were previously complaining about the 8 months wait for a new car delivery. So what's your 'real' goal, own one or not? *Edit: *OK, I see you "would" like to buy a new car but there's an 8 months wait. Ie. you haven't made up your mind but merely complaining about the supply issue that's affecting someone else! Sigh.

I have no idea what's or if there's such a thing as a "Tesla Ride Share Network." Are you talking about Uber or Lyft or some private limo cab? I ain't a fan of any of these (other than public taxis) but was merely pointing that out as a very "last" option - after the rental or a friend's car even which is after the plane, train and bus. Throw in a boat or roller-blades if you want to.



> This does beg the question, what will happen to a ride share network during a pandemic? Are we all going to get sick from viral cultures on the interior surfaces of a shared automobile?


 ... business as usual I gather as I have seen Uber drivers darting here and there in Toronto along with passengers hailing/awaiting for them with cellphone in hands. At the start of the pandemic, both driver and passenger wore masks (which I don't think will be any different now). There was also a (pexi?)-shield between driver and passenger (side/back).



> We used buses through this pandemic and it didn't seem to be a particularly strong infection vector but buses are supervised.


 ... good to know along with how air filtration is handled there.


> Who knows what people will do in the back of a car. People are pigs.


 .. no doubt people are pigs but I don't think there's an opportunity to create a pigsty under the watchful eyes of the Uber's driver (aka cam).



> I suspect it will be OK, if we are careful, and I also suspect that Tesla has a plan for an effective solution to the problem of viral transmission.


 ... no doubt it's best to get your own auto since only you (and those you know) breathe in there.

But then on recall, you have been infected 3 times with different versions of Covid so what's the worry?


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> ... well, for Ontario, we know who will be the fall-guys if hospitalisations go up.


 ... before the day ends for Torontonians, an update (Monday April 4, 2022, 3:52 pm):

'Together, we yield a lot of power:' Toronto's top doc asks residents to put masks back on

And,

TDSB to resume notifying entire school communities about positive COVID-19 cases

Hey, at least we made it past April 1st so it's no April's Fool!


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ..ah, but you were previously complaining about the 8 months wait for a new car delivery. So what's your 'real' goal, own one or not?


I'm going to leave this quote here as a cautionary message to encourage the youth of our nation to stay in school.


----------



## james4beach

Why is covid testing such a disaster in Canada? Why did all the provinces decide to stop doing PCR testing of the general public?

This makes it hard (maybe impossible) for vulnerable people to get antiviral pills within the critical 5 day period. What good are these life-saving drugs if people can't even get tested for covid?

The rapid antigen tests are too inaccurate and can't be relied on. The public needs to be able to get PCR tests in a timely fashion if they have any hope of getting the antiviral pills within 5 days of symptoms.

At the very least, the provinces should allow anyone over age 60, or anyone with severe risk factors to get the PCR tests on a walk-in basis. Think of all the vulnerable people who live at home (e.g. lung disease) who don't meet any of the current criteria for testing eligibility. My mom has breathing problems and other risk factors, yet would not currently be able to get a PCR test in her province.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Why is covid testing such a disaster in Canada? Why did all the provinces decide to stop doing PCR testing of the general public?


Money.




james4beach said:


> The rapid antigen tests are too inaccurate and can't be relied on.


Antigen tests were more accurate on previous variants of COVID. Unfortunately, our system does not seem able to respond with much speed.


----------



## TomB16

Meanwhile, in China, Shanghai is having some food supply issues. Most items continue to be available but I've watched a couple of reports which cite a shortage of eggs, in particular.

Also, there are are cases of people becoming restless and trying to leave their buildings but video of these events is quickly taken down by authorities, so there isn't much indication how wide spread this behaviour has become.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I'm going to leave this quote here as a cautionary message to encourage the youth of our nation to stay in school.


 ... yep, free baby-sitting services with by-the-books learning. But not for long or at least in Toronto with an increasingly dangerous if not deadly 6th wave. Where's Leccee? Gone stupid, dumb and deaf again?

I can't wait for Ontario's June 2nd election to come sooner.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Meanwhile, in China, Shanghai is having some food supply issues. Most items continue to be available but I've watched a couple of reports which cite a shortage of eggs, in particular.
> 
> Also, there are are cases of people becoming restless and trying to leave their buildings but video of these events is quickly taken down by authorities, so there isn't much indication how wide spread this behaviour has become.


 ... how do you stock up on eggs btw? Freeze? Looks like eggs and chickens are gonna to be scarce for the next while since we (Ontario) got an avian-flu endemic going on, too.


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> Meanwhile, in China, Shanghai is having some food supply issues. Most items continue to be available but I've watched a couple of reports which cite a shortage of eggs, in particular.
> 
> Also, there are are cases of people becoming restless and trying to leave their buildings but video of these events is quickly taken down by authorities, so there isn't much indication how wide spread this behaviour has become.


I think that's the primary reason that they relaxed restrictions here.

China has WAY more police power and they're resisting, Canada doesn't have nearly the amount of enforcement capability, nor would we accept it.
Better to relax a bit then waste energy fighting the people for marginal gain.

FYI, COVID is surging but it isn't really in the news yet, because people are over it.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Make that " ... because *SOME *people are over it." And I won't say what kind of these SOME people are over it other than the MAJORITY of the people are NOT over it.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> Meanwhile, in China, Shanghai is having some food supply issues. Most items continue to be available but I've watched a couple of reports which cite a shortage of eggs, in particular.


There's a shortage of eggs in the USA too. I just put in a food order for an elderly relative, and eggs have been out of stock for weeks.


----------



## sags

There is a sharp rise in Covid infection, hospitalizations and deaths in Ontario.

Experts say the Province removed restrictions too early and the biggest wave yet is building.

Premier Ford is feeling the pressure and they have announced a 4th shot for everyone over 60 starting tomorrow.

He continues to say there are lots of "beds" in hospitals, while ignoring the reports there is no staffing for the beds.

Hospitals are over capacity given the staff available. Health care workers are worn out.

Doug Ford has failed in his most important duty, which is to protect the citizens from harm.

Economics, politics, opinions......are all lower priorities than protecting the public.

Ford will likely win the next election, but might get knocked down to a minority government.


----------



## sags

The Ontario portal for booking a 2nd booster shot opens tomorrow at 8 am.

It is recommended to wait 5 months since your 1st booster shot.


----------



## Money172375

Rates look similar, or worse in Quebec (Who never dropped the mask mandate). How we explain this?


----------



## sags

Ontario dropped covid testing but wastewater testing reveals the actual cases in Ontario are at least 10 times higher than officially reported.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Rates look similar, or worse in Quebec (Who never dropped the mask mandate). How we explain this?


Unfortunately those case rates are completely unreliable. I don't even look at case numbers any more.

Provinces use some different criteria to test people. For example, hospital and ambulance workers, or maybe people in seniors homes, but the methodology doesn't give any kind of accurate reading of population as a whole.

Even hospitalization numbers aren't that useful because there is also different criteria about how this is measured. In BC for example, a huge number of the "hospitalization" cases were people who were detected to have covid once they were already in hospital, for other reasons.

All of this means we have a very poor reading on COVID in Canada, other than wastewater numbers.

You might even say that COVID monitoring has all gone to sh*t.


----------



## HappilyRetired

They've had 2 years to come up with a consistent way to measure cases and to count what really is a Covid fatality but they haven't. It's safe to assume that it was intentionally done that way to make it difficult to compare numbers.


----------



## sags

Ontario is suddenly offering the 4th booster, because they know something evil this way comes.

Experts say it won't stop this wave of infection, which could be the biggest to date. It is too little......too late.

Everyone is on their own. Provincial governments have given up and abandoned the people.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Ontario is suddenly offering the 4th booster, because they know something evil this way comes.


Manitoba is also offering a 4th booster. I overheard a pharmacist yesterday, saying it's coming to lower ages.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Unfortunately those case rates are completely unreliable. I don't even look at case numbers any more.


I understand the data is nuanced, to say the least, but ignoring it outright and substituting your own ideas is a weaponization of subjectivity.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Manitoba is also offering a 4th booster. I overheard a pharmacist yesterday, saying it's coming to lower ages.


Brutal.

Younger people are at extreme low risk to COVID while they carry the highest risk to the vaccine. Older people are at extreme low risk to the vaccine but are at the highest risk to COVID.

Vaccinating young people doesn't make sense to me. Apparently, Australia is considering vaccinating ages 4 and under. I hope that turns out to be an incorrect story or, at least, they don't do it.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> I understand the data is nuanced, to say the least, but ignoring it outright and substituting your own ideas is a weaponization of subjectivity.


But what can you infer from the case numbers, when we know the methodology is all screwed up?


----------



## sags

Ontario Health Minister Christine Eliott little startled by the covid numbers, and had a deer in the headlights look.

Reporters are digging in and wanting answers, noting that Doug Ford talks about hospital "beds" but not about staffing those beds.

Having a large number of beds and ICU spots ginned up and ready to go, doesn't give people a lot of confidence things are going well.

The " it is only bad for old people" response is wearing thin and people don't want to hear that anymore.

Those "old people" that are referred to are their parents and grandparents.

Dr. Isaac Bogush has made that same point repeatedly in press conferences and interviews.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> But what can you infer from the case numbers, when we know the methodology is all screwed up?


Yeah. It's not easy.

If the data collection methodology does not change, the numbers can provide relative COVID levels. BC, for example, has an indicator of when cases are going up and when they are going down. While not absolute but it does show trends and can identify peak infection levels.

The other indicator is deaths. This too can be misleading. A lot of people pointed to Finland lifting their mask mandates as a failure due to the COVID death rate going up but the death rate did not go up, just the COVID death rate. People die all the time so if COVID is common, a lot of people are going to have COVID when they die. The key is, their death rate was comfortably within the five year profile.

Deaths and infections so not directly coincide. The death rate is delayed a bit, so when the death rate starts to go down, it is a safe bet the infection rate went down some days earlier.

In the US, the FDA considers a severe COVID case to be anyone who receives hospital treatment while the CDC considers a severe case to be anyone who receives supplemental breathing assistance.

Statistical analysis requires a bit of thinking, particularly with so many similar looking statistics collected with different methodologies and, oddly, even objectives.


----------



## Money172375

Someone interpreting wastewater data in ontario says we’re having 100,000+ a day. I’ll see if I can find the source. Saw it earlier today. At that rate, we should all be exposed by summer.


----------



## Money172375

Here it is. Report from CityNews Toronto. Source is Dr. Juni, head of rhe provincial science table.

Breaking: Dr.Juni from Science Table tells me wastewater suggests Ontario is seeing 100 to 120K new Covid infections/day. He says Ontario is not at same risk of hospitals being overwhelmed bc of strong immunity built up BUT there could be great strain if people don't mask


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Ontario Health Minister Christine Eliott little startled by the covid numbers, and had a deer in the headlights look.
> 
> Reporters are digging in and wanting answers, noting that Doug Ford talks about hospital "beds" but not about staffing those beds.
> 
> Having a large number of beds and ICU spots ginned up and ready to go, doesn't give people a lot of confidence things are going well.
> 
> The " it is only bad for old people" response is wearing thin and people don't want to hear that anymore.
> 
> Those "old people" that are referred to are their parents and grandparents.
> 
> Dr. Isaac Bogush has made that same point repeatedly in press conferences and interviews.


 ... even those number of "hospital" beds Ford spews out don't jive, let alone the "staffing" issue.

2 weeks ago, he said we have 2,700 hospital beds.

Last week he said we have 3,000 beds.

This week, it's 3,100 beds.

I don't know how some 300 new/additional beds magically appear within a span of a couple of weeks - maybe he's thinking of bunk beds that his kids used to sleep in.

As for the "issue" of staffing, first there's no issue 'cause he's on the notion that the patients can look after themselves, like they're vacationing in a hotel. Typical Con mentality. 

And strangely enough, he has to fill in for his top medical advisor:

Ford defends public absence of top health official amid sixth wave of pandemic


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Here it is. Report from CityNews Toronto. Source is Dr. Juni, head of rhe provincial science table.
> 
> Breaking: Dr.Juni from Science Table tells me wastewater suggests Ontario is seeing 100 to 120K new Covid infections/day. He says Ontario is not at same risk of hospitals being overwhelmed bc of strong immunity built up BUT there could be great strain if people don't mask


 ... so what it's 100 to 200K of new infections. "People are over it"... repeating from MrMatt's post.

It isn't just a problem with not "masking" nor people not dying/overwheming the hospitals. Those many number of infections mean there'll be plenty of people calling in sick ... meaning be prepared for a slow down or shortage of EVERYTHING from food to services. The officials' plan of 2 steps forward for the economy is 3 steps assed-backwards.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> The " it is only bad for old people" response is wearing thin and people don't want to hear that anymore.
> 
> Those "old people" that are referred to are their parents and grandparents.


Yeah, I don't want my parents to end up in the hospital.

If that means we have to shut down the restaurants and 100 person weddings, then shut them down.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> It isn't just a problem with not "masking" nor people not dying/overwheming the hospitals. Those many number of infections mean there'll be plenty of people calling in sick ... meaning be prepared for a slow down or shortage of EVERYTHING from food to services. The officials' plan of 2 steps forward for the economy is 3 steps assed-backwards.


Data from the US is limited but it does seem the omicron BA.2 spike is not nearly as high in the USA as it is in the UK. Last I heard, about 1 in 11 people in England have COVID.

This could be due to the COVID deniers in the early days causing brutal COVID spread of earlier strains. That's a shame because Omicron seems like the best off-ramp we've seen, by far, to get off this pandemic highway. None the less, it does seem the US has a substantially lower peak of BA.2 than most other places.

In conclusion, Trump 2024!


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Yeah, I don't want my parents to end up in the hospital.
> 
> If that means we have to shut down the restaurants and 100 person weddings, then shut them down.


Your parents should isolate if they have health concerns. That's what my parents do. And maybe you should stop taking trips before demanding society be shut down.


----------



## james4beach

HappilyRetired said:


> Your parents should isolate if they have health concerns. That's what my parents do. And maybe you should stop taking trips before demanding society be shut down.


I take trips, but I do it responsibly:

1. I don't go out in public (or travel) if I feel sick
2. I always wear a 95 or 99 level mask around strangers
3. I have minimal contact with other households

This is what everyone should be doing, but they don't. Instead during my travels, I'm constantly hearing people coughing and sneezing, people are wearing ineffective masks, and people are socializing and partying all over the place.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> Ontario is suddenly offering the 4th booster, because they know something evil this way comes.
> 
> Experts say it won't stop this wave of infection, which could be the biggest to date. It is too little......too late.
> 
> Everyone is on their own. Provincial governments have given up and abandoned the people.


It's already too late for vaccination to make any difference to this wave.


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> It's already too late for vaccination to make any difference to this wave.


For sure.

If someone is not protected by vaccine in April of 2022, it is hardly a failure of the government. I recall vaccines being mentioned and recommended. lol!


----------



## andrewf

Ford pretending there is no wave is kind of pathetic.


----------



## james4beach

Uncontrolled community spread in progress (Ontario).

This pattern also strongly implies that people are being *reinfected*. Experts are saying that reinfections are common.

Some families are catching COVID twice in a month.


----------



## TomB16

We were both reinfected but let's not pretend a reinfection is the same as a first infection. There is absolutely no equivalency here.

Our first infections were like being run over by a car. Our reinfections, two years later, were barely noticeable. Countless others report the same.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> Our first infections were like being run over by a car. Our reinfections, two years later, were barely noticeable. Countless others report the same.


Nevertheless, people are out of commission and out sick. You sound pretty complacent Tom, don't be surprised if you get knocked off your feet again with your next COVID infection.

Peter Juni (from the organization which does that wastewater graphing I posted) says that Ontario likely now has the highest daily case counts ever in the pandemic. New record highs in cases!

Luckily it doesn't send many people to the hospital, but hospital staff catch this too. That results in reduced staffing and is becoming a challenge for the hospital system. People still get sick and they're out of commission.

Plus as I've said repeatedly before, all we need is one dangerous variant and suddenly this reckless public behaviour turns into an absolute catastrophe. And you don't get a lot of warning when that happens. It sneaks up on you. This wave isn't it, but it's going to happen at some point.

I think the public is actually capable of exercising caution. But Public Health is telling them the wrong things, saying it's OK to just go have fun and do whatever you want. I walked by a bus today and it looked like only 1/4 of the people had masks on. At a pharmacy, well under 1/2 the people had masks.

Insanely stupid public behaviour. We've got to fire these people in government and bring in people who have a clue.


----------



## TomB16

I will report back, if either of us are hit with a severe break through covid infection at some point in the future.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Plus as I've said repeatedly before, all we need is one dangerous variant and suddenly this reckless public behaviour turns into an absolute catastrophe.


Kind of odd we haven't heard anything about the new omicron vaccines yet. Higher case counts increase chances of variants so you'd think a better vaccine could be very helpful right now. Maybe the new test data doesn't show any reduction for infections so they are keeping it quiet and/or gone back to formulate another one that might work better?


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> Kind of odd we haven't heard anything about the new omicron vaccines yet. Higher case counts increase chances of variants so you'd think a better vaccine could be very helpful right now. Maybe the new test data doesn't show any reduction for infections so they are keeping it quiet and/or gone back to formulate another one that might work better?


Yeah I've been wondering about this as well. I seem to remember a brief news item on CNBC a while ago that mentioned that initial trials with a new omicron-focused vaccine had showed no big difference versus the original vaccine. Found this article by searching









Omicron-targeted vaccines do no better than original jabs in early tests
 

Experiments in animals show that boosters customized for the fast-spreading COVID variant offer little advantage over standard jabs.




www.nature.com


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Yeah I've been wondering about this as well. I seem to remember a brief news item on CNBC a while ago that mentioned that initial trials with a new omicron-focused vaccine had showed no big difference versus the original vaccine. Found this article by searching
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron-targeted vaccines do no better than original jabs in early tests
> 
> 
> Experiments in animals show that boosters customized for the fast-spreading COVID variant offer little advantage over standard jabs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com


Not any real data in that article, really need to see the human trial results started in Jan 2022.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> Not any real data in that article, really need to see the human trial results started in Jan 2022.


By the way, have you heard anything about Canada's MRNA vaccine availability in the coming months?

I'm delaying getting a 3rd shot, and want to get it a few months from now. I feel like it's probably a safe idea since we're now rolling out 4th shots to seniors but I still wonder if I'm making a mistake by not grabbing the MRNA shot while it's still available.

I figure that in a worst case scenario I could drive to the US and pay for another MRNA shot there, if Canada runs out.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> By the way, have you heard anything about Canada's MRNA vaccine availability in the coming months?
> 
> I'm delaying getting a 3rd shot, and want to get it a few months from now. I feel like it's probably a safe idea since we're now rolling out 4th shots to seniors but I still wonder if I'm making a mistake by not grabbing the MRNA shot while it's still available.
> 
> I figure that in a worst case scenario I could drive to the US and pay for another MRNA shot there, if Canada runs out.


Nothing on our local CDN made vaccine, no surprise there. 

Tough call on getting a booster, I'm still waiting but I'm not high risk (other than age) or have high exposure. At this stage I'll likely get covid before getting any booster.


----------



## wayward__son

TomB16 said:


> Is anyone else watching China's COVID response like a hawk, since it is the single biggest factor on the global economy right now?
> 
> As long as zero-COVID prevails in China, we will have global supply chain issues. If China steps away from zero-COVID, the global economy should lunge forward.
> 
> On the other hand, if China clings to zero-COVID for another year or two, we might see countries start making a few things for themselves. Can you imagine that?


Same. Feels like their zero covid is starting to fray. There is an element of pro-zero covid that is almost entirely political (we-will-do-what-the-west-couldn't-do sort of thing), but there definitely seems to be a growing attention to the cost side of the zero covid equation. The two miscarriages in Xian caused by pandemic restrictions earlier this year riled a lot of people up. Now there are some wacky things coming out of this latest Shanghai lockdown too -- there's a video going around on Chinese social media right now of a corgi that literally got beaten to death by a health worker as the owner was being taken into quarantine (noone to take care of it so they just killed it I guess). Not sure how long they'll be able to keep this sort of stuff up. People are people -- everyone has a breaking point.


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> I'm delaying getting a 3rd shot, and want to get it a few months from now. I feel like it's probably a safe idea since we're now rolling out 4th shots to seniors but I still wonder if I'm making a mistake by not grabbing the MRNA shot while it's still available.


I think you're making a mistake. Take the shot now and you'll be protected until the fall when you'll likely have to take another one.

ltr


----------



## sags

A reporter talked about a guy in the US who was a big anti-vaxxer, anti-covid (he called in convid) influencer and had a lot of followers.

He owned a gym and refused to close, so he got arrested. He held a rally in front of the courthouse where he railed against the "covid fraud".

He did a livestream and said he wasn't feeling well......but it wasn't covid because covid is a myth. He wasn't vaccinated and didn't get a test.

He had chills, bad aches, bad coughing, fever.......but it was just the worst cold he had ever had, according to him. There is no way it could be covid......he said.

The police found him dead in his apartment 2 weeks later. He was middle age and in good health and now he is dead because his brain didn't match his brawn.


----------



## sags

I think the mask mandates should have left on. When some people wear masks and others don't......it puts everyone at risk.

Vulnerable people can isolate as much as possible, but people have to work and they often have to shop or have medical appointments they need to go to.

Some people are forced to use public transit if they have to go somewhere. It is ridiculously easy for everyone to just wear a mask in such situations.

To eliminate all restrictions during a pandemic wave and eliminate most testing.makes me wonder what the goal is.

The herd immunity plan isn't going to work if people get reinfected. The pandemic will just continue to roll on forever.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Data from the US is limited but it does seem the omicron BA.2 spike is not nearly as high in the USA as it is in the UK. Last I heard, about 1 in 11 people in England have COVID.
> 
> This could be due to the COVID deniers in the early days causing brutal COVID spread of earlier strains. That's a shame because Omicron seems like the best off-ramp we've seen, by far, to get off this pandemic highway. None the less, it does seem the US has a substantially lower peak of BA.2 than most other places.
> 
> In conclusion, Trump 2024!


 ... we'll see about the numbers of infection and re's with BA.2. And then there're the XEs to follow.

As for Trump 2024 - in jail where he doesn't have to worry about dodging Covid in his own unit. And that's provided those from Hartt's Island (sic) don't return to haunt him.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> A reporter talked about a guy in the US who was a big anti-vaxxer, anti-covid (he called in convid) influencer and had a lot of followers.
> 
> He owned a gym and refused to close, so he got arrested. He held a rally in front of the courthouse where he railed against the "covid fraud".
> 
> He did a livestream and said he wasn't feeling well......but it wasn't covid because covid is a myth. He wasn't vaccinated and didn't get a test.
> 
> He had chills, bad aches, bad coughing, fever.......but it was just the worst cold he had ever had, according to him. There is no way it could be covid......he said.
> 
> The police found *him dead *in his apartment 2 weeks later. He was middle age and in good health and now he is dead because his brain didn't match his brawn.


 ...


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> I think the mask mandates should have left on. When some people wear masks and others don't......it puts everyone at risk.
> 
> Vulnerable people can isolate as much as possible, but people have to work and they often have to shop or have medical appointments they need to go to.
> 
> Some people are forced to use public transit if they have to go somewhere. It is ridiculously easy for everyone to just wear a mask in such situations.
> 
> To eliminate all restrictions during a pandemic wave and eliminate most testing.makes me wonder what the goal is.
> 
> The herd immunity plan isn't going to work if people get reinfected. The pandemic will just continue to roll on forever.


 ... "... people are over it." ... re-repeating from MrMatt's post.

And repeating from my earlier post(s), these mistakes (un-maskings, open up early, etc.) in Ontario are gonna to be covered by somebod(ies) on June 2nd.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> I think the mask mandates should have left on. When some people wear masks and others don't......it puts everyone at risk.


Well, if I look at the Ottawa wastewater numbers, and you look after March 21st when the mask mandate was lifted, it seems obvious something is happening. See attached graph.

Also if we look at those Ottawa wastewater numbers in a longer timescale and mark where the waves of infection are, you can see the numbers after the masks were taken off. Shocking actually.

To me these wastewater numbers are the only valid feedback we have today since the government felt it better to reduce testing to make the numbers look better.


----------



## TomB16

like_to_retire said:


> To me these wastewater numbers are the only valid feedback we have today since the government felt it better to reduce testing to make the numbers look better.


COVID has put a dent in province's budget for the last two years and it's cleaned out a lot of small business. The feds have helped but COVID has taxed our financial system. The quote below is federal only and for 21-22 FY.



> Overall, these 5 organizations account for 88% of the total COVID‑19 authorities included in the 2021-22 Estimates:
> 
> 
> Department of Employment and Social Development ($19.5 billion);
> Public Health Agency of Canada ($12.4 billion);
> Department of Finance ($7.4 billion);
> Department of Indigenous Services ($2.5 billion); and
> Department of Health ($2.0 billion).









__





COVID-19 Planned Expenditures - Canada.ca







www.canada.ca






I wouldn't jump to the conclusion the testing cessation is a conspiracy to pretend COVID is better than it is. It seems more likely an admission that COVID is accepted as a fact of life and it's time to get back to building roads, building bridges, and installing sample spigots in our sewage systems.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> ... I wouldn't jump to the conclusion the testing cessation is a conspiracy to pretend COVID is better than it is. It seems more likely an admission that COVID is accepted as a fact of life and *it's time to get back to building roads, building bridges, and installing sample spigots in our sewage systems.*


 ... who is gonna to go back to building roads, bridges, etc. aka back to business when they're off sick from Covid? And by "they" - the masses aka somebod(ies) else. You could say it's a Catch-22.


----------



## TomB16

Do you have COVID, Beaver? Is anyone in your household currently quarantining due to COVID? How many people personally do you know with COVID?

I'm ready to go and checked out on a variety of loaders. Maybe someone will teach me how to operate a vibration roller. Let's go. 

I could use the pension, as I don't have one.


----------



## TomB16

Meanwhile, the numbers China is sharing show COVID infections increasing at a rate of about 10% per day. At this rate, it is doubling weekly.

They have definitely "flattened the curve" but it's difficult to see how this can end well for either the Chinese economy or the world economy.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Do you have COVID, Beaver? Is anyone in your household quarantining due to COVID, right now?


 ... what's your point here? 

Just speaking for myself, I'm not of retirement age but I have decided on a looooong sabbatical, if not a permanent one, all due to the protracted pandemic. I would prefer to be poor and alive than rich and dead. You should realize this by now given all my posts.

Or would you prefer someone infectious to show up at work 'cause they (claiming) "have" to? This reminds me of an article (which I'll dig up) from the start of the pandemic on a common running theme: SELFISHNESS.



> How many people personally do you know with COVID?


 ... 2 - one from 2020 and one from 2021. Both are dead. One from the effects of the pandemic and the other one due to Covid. [And I haven't said anything about their elderly parents.] Sorry but I'm not contracting a natural infection even you pay me. You can keep it.


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> I wouldn't jump to the conclusion the testing cessation is a conspiracy to pretend COVID is better than it is. It seems more likely an admission that COVID is accepted as a fact of life and it's time to get back to building roads, building bridges, and installing sample spigots in our sewage systems.


Ford is actively downplaying the current wave and we are mere weeks away from an election. It was 100% politically motivated.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... what's your point here? Just speaking for myself, I'm not of retirement age but I have decided on a looooong sabbatical, if not a permanent, all due to the protracted pandemic.


My point is we have a majority of healthy people. I don't want to carry these gold brickers any longer.




Beaver101 said:


> ... 2 - one from 20020 and one from 2021. Both friends and are dead. sorry but I'm not contracting a natural infection even you pay me.


Neither of these two citations are active cases. BTW, I lost two family members to COVID. They weren't vaccinated and their extreme, right wing, politics did not protect them.

In the near future, you will enjoy a natural infection for free. It's not a choice any of us have.

If it were me, I would want to make sure I'm protected by vaccine and then I would want to take on the least virulent COVID variant possible. That is omicron. My goal would be to have the best possibility for survival.


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> Do you have COVID, Beaver? Is anyone in your household currently quarantining due to COVID? How many people personally do you know with COVID?
> 
> I'm ready to go and checked out on a variety of loaders. Maybe someone will teach me how to operate a vibration roller. Let's go.
> 
> I could use the pension, as I don't have one.


I probably have COVID at the moment (rapid test still showing negative, but that doesn't mean much). Several of my aunts and uncles have it. My boss's boss has it (probably infected me) and my one employee just tested positive along with his two kids.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Meanwhile, the numbers China is sharing show COVID infections increasing at a rate of about 10% per day. At this rate, it is doubling weekly.
> 
> They have definitely "flattened the curve" but it's difficult to see how this can end well for either the Chinese economy or the world economy.


 ... the Chinese government will figure this out as with the rest of the world. It's not like the Chinese government is asking for help.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> My point is we have a majority of healthy people. I don't want to carry these gold brickers any longer.


 ... so the "majority" of people will continue working until they get infected and becomes the working "minority". No?



> Neither of these two citations are active cases. BTW, I lost two family members to COVID. They weren't vaccinated and their extreme, right wing, politics did not protect them.


 ... so why ask if they're deem inactive, thus irrelevant to the current situation?



> In the near future, you will enjoy a natural infection for free. It's not a choice any of us have.


 ... I probably came down with different version of Covid a decade ago with "repeats annually" whilst "working". And that means I caught it from someone at work or enroute. I don't generate an infectious disease by myself. And now can I get a break from those infections? That's not asking too much, is it?



> If it were me, I would want to make sure I'm protected by vaccine and then I would want to take on the least virulent COVID variant possible. That is omicron. My goal would be to have the best possibility for survival.


 ... well, your last statement proves you and I are no different. However, as for getting Omicron, like I said and now repeat again, NO THANKS, you keep it however tame it is.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> I probably have COVID at the moment (rapid test still showing negative, but that doesn't mean much). Several of my aunts and uncles have it. My boss's boss has it (probably infected me) and my one employee just tested positive along with his two kids.


 ... just assume you got it given it's so prevalent. As long as you don't have the symptoms or need hospitalization, you're fine. Just think of it as the sniffles, cold or flu.


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> I probably have COVID at the moment (rapid test still showing negative, but that doesn't mean much). Several of my aunts and uncles have it. My boss's boss has it (probably infected me) and my one employee just tested positive along with his two kids.


For sure. If you have had a booster, it shouldn't be too bad.

Best wishes on a speedy recovery.


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> Well, if I look at the Ottawa wastewater numbers, and you look after March 21st when the mask mandate was lifted, it seems obvious something is happening. See attached graph.
> 
> Also if we look at those Ottawa wastewater numbers in a longer timescale and mark where the waves of infection are, you can see the numbers after the masks were taken off. Shocking actually.
> 
> To me these wastewater numbers are the only valid feedback we have today since the government felt it better to reduce testing to make the numbers look better.
> 
> View attachment 23042
> View attachment 23043


I think a mistake we are making is assuming that an equivalent reading of wastewater correlates to an equal number of infections. It might, but it might not.

One of the reasons I am an advocate of removing the masks, for the relatively young and healthy, is that where one wears a mask is usually in areas where one might obtain a safer infection, simply because they don't hang out there that long. We tend to take them off when we are at family and friend gatherings, that are significantly more dangerous to someone who has never been exposed to this virus, or vaccinated in the last 4 months. The biggest moronacy I recall is when a person would put on a mask to run into the liquor store for 10 minutes and then remove their mask when at the party they go to, for the next 6 hours.

What we might be seeing in Ottawa today, is not 25,000 average infections per day, but perhaps 125,000 safer infections per day (obviously meaning many people are being re-exposed). The wastewater simply measures the amount of virus in the sewers. That amount may come from "X" number of infected people supplying "Y" amount of virus OR it might come from 5 times "X" number of infected people supplying 1/5th times "Y" amount of virus...because they obtained a lower dose and become less sick. People who obtained their first infection during a short term trip to a retail store as opposed to a long term dinner at a family gathering. People who wore a lower quality mask and obtained their infection by breathing the air from an infected person, who was not wearing a mask, through their own mask. Basically filtering down the dose of exposure to something lower, but higher then zero, like it was before, when both wore a mask.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... well, your last statement proves you and I are no different. However, as for getting Omicron, like I said and now repeat again, NO THANKS, you keep it however tame it is.


Let me assure you, our points of view diverge in many areas. That's great with me, as I appreciate being exposed to a broader perspective.

I look at COVID the same way I look at taxes. I don't want to pay tax, at all, but I understand I have no choice so I structure my finances to pay the least tax and I always submit on time.


----------



## TomB16

OptsyEagle said:


> The biggest moronacy I recall is when a person would put on a mask to run into the liquor store for 10 minutes and then remove their mask when at the party they go to, for the next 6 hours.


Perhaps these people are safety minded and wish to lower their risk of choking when they vomit?

[Edit: This post is, of course, meant in jest.]


----------



## OptsyEagle

Obviously my point is that one should wear a mask when they are in an environment where they might obtain a dangerous infection (long exposure time) and remove them when they are in an environment that might provide them an immune boosting safer infection (short exposure time)...or wear the highest quality mask, for the rest of their lives, wherever they go, until the day they die. At least everyone has a choice.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Let me assure you, our points of view diverge in many areas. That's great with me, as I appreciate being exposed to a broader perspective.


 ... when I said you and I are no different - I was referring to your last statement "_My goal would be to have the best possibility for survival_." plus the fact that we're both the same type of hosts to the virus despite the different perspectives where we diverge. 



> I look at COVID the same way I look at taxes. I don't want to pay tax, at all, but I understand I have no choice so I structure my finances to pay the least tax and I always submit on time.


 ... yep in which case catch Covid where you don't survive (and please don't tell me catching Omicron means you''re guaranteed to live) and then you don't have to pay taxes anymore.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> Obviously my point is that one should wear a mask when they are in an environment where they might obtain a dangerous infection (long exposure time) and remove them when they are in an environment that might provide them an immune boosting safer infection (short exposure time)...*or wear the highest quality mask, for the rest of their lives, wherever they go, until the day they die.* At least everyone has a choice.


 ... why does one need to wear a mask when the pandemic has been declared over? Or are you trying to be obtuse here? Or the typical talk from 2 sides of the mouth effect.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... why does one need to wear a mask when the pandemic has been declared over?


COVID19 is going to be with us forever. The pandemic will be over when infections are no longer at epidemic levels but there will still be infections.

We still have the black plague in North America and I'm not talking about the Republican sociological perspective. It just doesn't happen very often and doesn't kill huge tranches of people so it is generally ignored.


----------



## cainvest

Beaver101 said:


> ... why does one need to wear a mask when the pandemic has been declared over?


I must have missed that MEMO ... when was it declared over?


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> *COVID19 is going to be with us forever.* The pandemic will be over when infections are no longer at epidemic levels but there will still be infections.
> 
> We still have the black plague in North America and I'm not talking about the Republican sociological perspective. It just doesn't happen very often and doesn't kill huge tranches of people so it is generally ignored.


 ... don't dispute the bolded part since the virus was first settler on this planet. That's why there's my question for OE.


----------



## Beaver101

cainvest said:


> I must have missed that MEMO ... when was it declared over?


 .. it hasn't and you have to read OE's post in its entire context unless he's being obtuse (giving him benefit of the doubt here).


----------



## Beaver101

Today's (Thursday April 7, 2022) news:
Scrapping masks a 'huge mistake:' Opposition parties call on Ford government to bring back mask mandates

Versus 1 week ago (Thursday March 31, 2022) news:
Health minister insists Ontario is 'staying the course' on lifting restrictions amid sixth wave of pandemic

Let's see if Elliott and Ford along with her/his "top" medical advisor get to eat their words.

Repeat, I can't wait for the June 2nd election to be upon us, Ontarians.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Beaver101 said:


> ... don't dispute the bolded part since the virus was first settler on this planet. That's why there's my question for OE.


I never declared the pandemic over. I am trying to advise people on how to end it.

As for masks. The best approach, right now, would be for the younger (under age 65) and healthy to remove their masks when going into retail stores. They can do whatever they want but the best thing for most people, including themselves would be for them to remove their masks. Just like we asked the young to get vaccinated to protect the vulnerable, this is the same situation. We are asking them to get a stronger immune system so that the amount of virus they will be able to carry in the future is a lot less. A safer amount for the vulnerable people they will eventually meet. 

Until this next wave starts to decline, the more vulnerable should continue to use their masks. That would be the safest and quickest way to end this pandemic. If everyone prefers, we can do it the other way.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Now, what do you do when you leave the retail stores, when you were not wearing a mask? Do you try to avoid coming into contact with everyone? No.

When my wife comes home from her shopping trips, she finds it amusing now, that I am almost at the door to meet her, each time. I hug her and I kiss her, every time. I do this for two reasons. I am quite fond of the girl, but more importantly, I want a small piece of whatever dose of virus she might have collected...BEFORE...she grows it into a much larger, more dangerous dose, over the next few days. Avoiding people in your household will not only be impossible but the longer you succeed, the more dangerous it gets.

Do you see how this works. That is what we should be doing. Obviously, if you are young and healthy, it is time to get rid of your mask and stop the social distancing. It is not helping anymore.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> I never declared the pandemic over.


 ... neither did I say you declared the pandemic as being over. Cainvest was being facetious there and you were being obtuse with ... wearing a mask for the duration of one's life.


> I am trying to advise people on how to end it.


 ... LMAO ... so you're the public health expert now or want to be one. I think that Moore guy's position is going to be open after June 2nd if his boss ain't around so there's an opportunity there to be one.



> As for masks. The best approach, right now, would be for the younger (under age 65) and healthy to remove their masks when going into retail stores. They can do whatever they want but *the best thing for most people, including themselves would be for them to remove their masks. *Just like we asked the young to get vaccinated to protect the vulnerable, this is the same situation. We are asking them to get a stronger immune system so that the amount of virus they will be able to carry in the future is a lot less. A safer amount for the vulnerable people they will eventually meet.


 ... LMAO again ... as if the "younger (under age 65)" is gonna to listen/take your advice or prove your theory.

I have seen far less than 65 yos, anywhere from 10 to 50 yos wearing masks on the "streets (sidewalks)" "today April 7, 2022" in Toronto, let alone "inside a store" (not required) or on public transit (required). No real change in behaviour on maskings - like "hey, no mask mandates anymore!!! which was surprising given what our public health officials announced a couple of weeks earlier.



> Until this next wave starts to decline, the more vulnerable should continue to use their masks. That would be the safest and quickest way to end this pandemic. If everyone prefers, we can do it the other way.


 ... it's gonna to be the "other way", or any way but your way. Nature will take its course and people can decide what's best for them. Even the experts can't get their own advice right.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> Now, what do you do when you leave the retail stores, when you were not wearing a mask? Do you try to avoid coming into contact with everyone? No.


 ... why are you assuming that one isn't wearing a mask in a store? For one, the workers there ALL wear masks despite no mandate. Will it shock you that "servers" in a restaurant still wear a masks as with the banks. Advisors/tellers there still wear masks - and today is April 7, 2022. Customers everywhere where the mandate has been lifted can choose to wear mask or not. And from what I observed, 80% still wear masks. At least in Toronto. Not sure where you are.



> When my wife comes home from her shopping trips, she finds it amusing now, that I am almost at the door to meet her, each time. I hug her and I kiss her, every time. I do this for two reasons. I am quite fond of the girl, but more importantly, I want a small piece of whatever dose of virus she might have collected...BEFORE...she grows it into a much larger, more dangerous dose, over the next few days. Avoiding people in your household will not only be impossible but the longer you succeed, the more dangerous it gets.


 ... without going gross, do you not sleep and snore next to her? So why do you need to collect the virus from her this way? Other than the kiss, eew.



> Do you see how this works. That is what we should be doing. Obviously, if you are young and healthy, it is time to get rid of your mask and stop the social distancing. It is not helping anymore.


... yeah, yeah, whatever. Each to their own. Forgot the Freedom Convoy "root (supposedly)" cause so soon?


----------



## OptsyEagle

Breaking news, this just in. Beaver disagrees with me ... although it would appear she misunderstood most of what I said, again.

Anyway, just a suggestion. As I said we can do it the hard and slow way if that's what everyone prefers.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> Breaking news, this just in. Beaver disagrees with me ... although it would appear she misunderstood most of what I said, again.
> 
> Anyway, just a suggestion. As I said we can do it the hard and slow way if that's what everyone prefers.


 ... I didn't misunderstood what you said - or your "suggestions".

But I do agree I disagree with you and we can learn it the "hard" way as per your view which may be the only way.


----------



## james4beach

like_to_retire said:


> I think you're making a mistake. Take the shot now and you'll be protected until the fall when you'll likely have to take another one.


The shot only protects you for a couple months against infection. If I take the shot now, I'm back to unprotected when entering winter, which is a much more dangerous period than the summer.

And there's no way I'm taking one shot now, and then another one in just 5 months. That's way too frequent for my taste and I'm concerned about side effects, and the long term health of my immune system.

But I completely agree that we should take a shot in the fall before entering winter.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> I probably have COVID at the moment (rapid test still showing negative, but that doesn't mean much). Several of my aunts and uncles have it. My boss's boss has it (probably infected me) and my one employee just tested positive along with his two kids.


andrewf please keep us posted. Rapid tests should be done daily if you suspect COVID.

What I'm curious about is whether you end up testing positive, and don't feel anything at all. This must be happening quite a bit but we don't have any good numbers on how common this kind of asymptomatic case is. So it would be interesting to hear if that's what happens in your case.

In one of your rapid tests, you might also try swabbing your throat instead of the nose.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> andrewf please keep us posted. Rapid tests should be done daily if you suspect COVID.
> 
> What I'm curious about is whether you end up testing positive, and don't feel anything at all. This must be happening quite a bit but we don't have any good numbers on how common this kind of asymptomatic case is. So it would be interesting to hear if that's what happens in your case.
> 
> In one of your rapid tests, you might also try swabbing your throat instead of the nose.


 ... given andrewf's work situation (can't work from home), I would call in sick whether asymptomatic or not. It's not like he needs a doctor's note. Afterall, his boss first caught Covid (the proof) and then gave it to him in that in person meeting.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... given andrewf's work situation (can't work from home), I would call in sick being asymptomatic or not. It's not like he needs a doctor's note. Afterall, his boss first caught Covid and then gave it to him.


@andrewf if you feel "off" in any way at all (usually a person gets a sense) then I would assume you have covid and call in sick, even if the test doesn't register positive.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... LMAO ... so you're the public health expert now or want to be one. I think that Moore guy's position is going to be open after June 2nd if his boss ain't around so there's an opportunity there to be one.


Beav, why are you attacking OptsyEagle for sharing his perspective on this? Isn't sharing our ideas and perspectives the entire reason for the existence of online forums?

We don't have to agree but maybe we could try to be half way civil? lol!


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> I think a mistake we are making is assuming that an equivalent reading of wastewater correlates to an equal number of infections. It might, but it might not.


You could be right, but you can see the comparisons between the wastewater viral count and a variety of situations in the long term graph (that I see now that I forgot to include the url in my post - I meant to do that). 

Anyway, a comparison can be made with the graph against, "Hospital Counts", "New Cases", "Active Cases" and "% Positivity".

But I do understand what you're saying. I just feel that wastewater testing is a great metric that can't be altered too much as other testing types can. It tests everyone, since everyone has to poo, there can't be people who opt out. Each time there's been a wave those wastewater counts go up, so it's a decent test. We see in the graph what happens after the masks came off in the city, so it shows it made a big difference. Personally, I support the new mask rules and opening of business'. Then people can decide if they want to wear the mask or not. 

ltr


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Beav, why are you attacking OptsyEagle for sharing his perspective on this? Isn't sharing our ideas and perspectives the entire reason for the existence of online forums?
> 
> We don't have to agree but maybe we could try to be half way civil? lol!


 ... does his statement (re-pasted below) sound like "sharing of an idea or perspective" of which my response you quoted was targeted at? If not, does it not sound like he can replace our top medical advisor then? So what attack are you talking about?



> *I am trying to advise people on how to end it*.


Btw, the "ideas" that he wanted to share is no different from posts and posts and post of his from before ... it's repeated the same so many times I lost count.

The messaage was "Go get yourself infected" ... and so I want to reply back ... by all means if you want, just no need to tell (aka "advise" or modern day version of "influencing" others) to do so. Let nature take its course. Each of its own. It coincides with the concept of freedom of speech, freedom of mandates, freedom of whatever you want ... isn't it?

Besides, we ain't 2 years olds if you want my honest opinion, if not annoyed.


----------



## TomB16

There is a very interesting dynamic going on in this thread.

James, Beaver = China = zero COVID at all costs

TomB16, perhaps one or two others = Sweden = reasonable COVID exposure, protect the vulnerable

We don't need to argue about it here. Each hypothesis is being tested in real time.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... does his statement (re-pasted below) at sound like "sharing of an idea or perspective" ...


Yes.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> There is a very interesting dynamic going on in this thread.
> 
> James, Beaver = China = zero COVID at all costs
> 
> TomB16, perhaps one or two others = Sweden = reasonable COVID exposure, protect the vulnerable
> 
> We don't need to argue about it here. Each hypothesis is being tested in real time.


 ... your equations are already skewed (if not farcial), particularly the 2nd one with the "protect the vulnerable". [And by "vulnerable, this doesn't include those who's going maskless, hoping to catch Omicron so they can't open up the business, causing supply shortages et al.]. Laughable if you ask for my honest opinion without adopting a zero Covid at all costs factor there.

Btw, you can hobble/criticize all you want about China's zero Covid policy. The fact is there's nothing you can do about it.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Yes.


 ... so "advising others on how" to do something is considered "sharing" ... interesting concept there.


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> You could be right, but you can see the comparisons between the wastewater viral count and a variety of situations in the long term graph (that I see now that I forgot to include the url in my post - I meant to do that).
> 
> Anyway, a comparison can be made with the graph against, "Hospital Counts", "New Cases", "Active Cases" and "% Positivity".
> 
> But I do understand what you're saying. I just feel that wastewater testing is a great metric that can't be altered too much as other testing types can. It tests everyone, since everyone has to poo, there can't be people who opt out. Each time there's been a wave those wastewater counts go up, so it's a decent test. We see in the graph what happens after the masks came off in the city, so it shows it made a big difference. Personally, I support the new mask rules and opening of business'. Then people can decide if they want to wear the mask or not.
> 
> ltr


Sure. And my comment about 5 x infections was just an example. I suspect it is probably correlating at about 1.5 to maybe 2 times at the very most, so the estimates they are giving for infections are probably not off by much, if they are off at all.

I do think a lot of people have more benign infections currently then they did in the last wave but that might change soon. You see, my suggestion for removing the mask to obtain a safer infection only works for the primary infection. So the guy who takes off their mask in the retail store gets off easy. What happens when he/she lets that infection grow for a day or two and then someone without a mask meets up with them, for an extended period of time indoors, is going to become a little more dangerous. Since that happens more on the secondary and tertiary transmissions, etc., we might see them coming to us soon.

That is why I am so affectionate with my wife these days. If she contracts anything or I do, I want to transmit it before it starts to grow to something more dangerous. She says she understands the reasons for the covid hugs and the covid kisses, but she says she does not seem to understand the science behind the covid feels. I simply told her that I took a night course in microbiology in 1986 and she should just trust me on this one. lol.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> She says she understands the reasons for the covid hugs and the covid kisses, but she says she does not seem to understand the science behind the covid feels. I simply told her that I took a night course in microbiology in 1986 and she should just trust me on this one. lol.


To be sure I always appreciate and have learned a lot from your posts on this subject, but you better not try and give me any of those COVID kisses. 

ltr


----------



## Beaver101

Ontario reports more than 1,100 COVID-19 hospitalizations, 16 more deaths

*



Ontario reports more than 1,100 COVID-19 hospitalizations, 16 more deaths

Click to expand...

*


> _Kerrisa Wilson, CP24, Last Updated Thursday, April 7, 2022
> 
> Ontario is reporting* more than 1,100 patients hospitalized *with COVID-19 and 16 more virus-related deaths Thursday, as the province opened fourth vaccine dose appointments for select residents.
> 
> *The Ministry of Health says there are 1,126 COVID-19 patients in Ontario hospitals, up from 1,074 yesterday and from 807 a week ago. *This marks an almost 40 per cent week-over-week increase and a high not seen since Feb. 19 when nearly 1,200 patients were hospitalized.
> 
> Forty-six per cent of hospitalized patients were admitted for COVID-19 and 54 per cent were admitted for other reasons but subsequently tested positive for the virus.
> 
> Meanwhile, 159 of hospitalized patients are in intensive care, down by seven patients from a week ago. The ministry says 70 per cent of ICU patients were admitted there due to coronavirus-related complications and the remaining were admitted for other reasons but also tested positive.
> 
> The ministry reported 16 more COVID-19 deaths today, all of which occurred in the past month. Three of the deaths were long-term care home residents.
> 
> Since March 2020, 12,527 residents have died with the virus in Ontario.
> 
> Provincial labs processed more than 21,300 tests in the past 24 hours, producing a positivity rate of 17.2 per cent, compared to 16 per cent seven days ago, according to the ministry.
> 
> *The province also reported 4,224 more coronavirus infections today but the number of lab-confirmed cases continues to be an underestimate due to testing restrictions.*
> 
> Among the latest cases, 2,418 individuals received three doses of a vaccine, 1,074 received two doses, 482 are not fully vaccinated and 250 have an unknown vaccination status.
> 
> The head of Ontario’s COVID-19 Science Advisory Table warned yesterday that the province is likely seeing over 100,000 new cases daily, and that roughly five per cent of residents are currently infected.
> 
> “Based on our wastewater analysis, we just reached the peak we were at in early January and at that time, we were at about 100,000 to 120,000 new cases per day,” Dr. Peter Jüni told CP24 on Wednesday.
> 
> Jüni said the more transmissible BA.2 sub variant is driving some of the spike in new cases, *but he said the primary factor is likely due to the lifting of mask mandates in most settings.*
> 
> Infectious diseases specialist Dr. Isaac Bogoch says residents should approach this wave with “a degree of caution,” despite recent modelling showing that this wave likely won’t impact the health-care system as severely compared to the last wave.
> 
> “Just because this wave may not shape up to be the same size as the wave we just had, we're still in the midst of one. It's still impacting the health-care system and those working in it and obviously you still should take many measures to protect yourself and those around you,” he said.
> 
> *“Wear a mask, get your vaccine, if you're sick and you're eligible for outpatient treatments, timely access to those will go a long way in keeping people out of hospital.”*
> 
> On Thursday, the province opened up eligibility for fourth COVID-19 vaccine doses to Ontarians aged 60 and older, First Nations, Inuit and Métis individuals and their non-Indigenous household members aged 18 and up.
> 
> ... _


 ... does this news look like a trend down in Ontario? ... Scapegoats, where're you hiding?


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> I simply told her that I took a night course in microbiology in 1986 and she should just trust me on this one. lol.


I really think the above won't help to sell your theory.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> James, Beaver = China = zero COVID at all costs


That's not what I said at all.

I think people should exercise caution, continue wearing masks, and avoid large gatherings and big parties. Otherwise they can do pretty much whatever they'd like.

We're not going to have zero COVID, but we also don't have to allow uncontrolled community spread -- like Ontario tolerates.


----------



## andrewf

Beaver101 said:


> ... given andrewf's work situation (can't work from home), I would call in sick whether asymptomatic or not. It's not like he needs a doctor's note. Afterall, his boss first caught Covid (the proof) and then gave it to him in that in person meeting.


To clarify, I can quite readily work from home (did it for 2 years), and have been doing so since Wed. I am symptomatic (sore throat, headache, etc.).

OE, if you are convinced that low doses of virus are ideal, I think continued masking still makes sense because masks are not fullly effective. You expose yourself to smaller doses by wearing a mask.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> That's not what I said at all.
> 
> I think people should exercise caution, continue wearing masks, and avoid large gatherings and big parties. Otherwise they can do pretty much whatever they'd like.


OK. Is it fair to say, you are in favor of a spread rate that is faster than total lockdown, such as they are doing in China, but slower than than the caligulesque approach I favour?

In China, BA.2 is spreading at roughly 10% expansion per day. That has it doubling every week.

Finland blew through the BA.1 wave in a bit over a month.

Is there a rationale behind the spread function you advocate? Healthcare load? Other?


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> OK. Is it fair to say, you are in favor of a spread rate that is faster than total lockdown, such as they are doing in China, but slower than than the caligulesque approach I favour?


Yeah I'd like some caution, in the middle

I'm not ignoring you, but I'm outta here... going to the beach! (it's in the username)


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> To clarify, I can quite readily work from home (did it for 2 years), and have been doing so since Wed..


 ... I realize you could have WFH as you did the past 2 years and you want to have that continued. However, when everything opened up, your boss wanted you in the office in-person (a mandate, right?) for "collaboration or that fuzzy-midas-touch" if I'm not mistaken. And boom, you got infected.


> I am symptomatic (sore throat, headache, etc.).


 ... no brainer that you have to stay at home or "isolate". And the fact that you can "W" FH whilst sick doesn't make Covid seem a bad thing then. I think your boss would expect you back in the office in 2 weeks? So much for WFH going forward then. And then when you're back in the office - be prepared for a re-infection as that seems to be the trend now.



> OE, if you are convinced that low doses of virus are ideal, I think continued masking still makes sense because masks are not fullly effective. You expose yourself to smaller doses by wearing a mask.


 ... based on this logic's of OE of "low viral dosage" bogus from wearing an "ineffective" mask, you might as well don't bother wearing one.


----------



## OptsyEagle

andrewf said:


> OE, if you are convinced that low doses of virus are ideal, I think continued masking still makes sense because masks are not fullly effective. You expose yourself to smaller doses by wearing a mask.


I agree, and I already said that. The problem arises when everyone wears a mask. With everyone wearing a mask it has been pretty much proven that transmission comes to a complete stop. I know that sounds like a good idea but unfortuneately we don't wear a mask all the time. So we will all get it eventually and all masking is doing now is stopping the more safer infections, that would have protected us when we are eventually exposed to the more dangerous ones.

From what I have been reading here lately, it appears to me that too many people are still fighting yesterday's battle. Yesterday's battle was the attempt to avoid ever being infected by covid-19. That was the battle plan that made sense when we had some hope that the vaccines might provide enough immunity to be able to eliminate this virus from the planet. Unfortuneately, we now know that is not going to happen...ever. So I am trying to tell people that they really do need to revise their battle plan.

Your battle plan now, should not be to keep doing your best to avoid exposure to covid-19, since that cannot be achieved for any inhabitant of earth anymore. The best plan now would be to ensure that when you do get your exposure to it, you don't get so sick that you need to be rushed to the hospital, or that you die. In my above posts I am giving some of the ideas that can put better odds in your favour to win this battle. Definitely don't do it because I said so. Do it because your common sense tells you that it is the safest thing to do. If it doesn't then don't do it. Just give it some thought... or throw the dice on your next infection. Most people will win the game of covid, so you can just rely on that if you want.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I will attempt to end this discussion with one last analogy, that I hope might bring to light the importance of what I am saying. Think about a situation where you find yourself trapped in an alley, with a few other people, and blocking your exit to safety is a very angry biker gang intent on unleashing severe physical harm to all of you. As you watch them swinging their chains, gripping their clubs and pointing their knives at you, you will undoubtedly be disappointed that you have become trapped in this predicament, but I would imagine you will attempt to figure out what you should do to survive.

Sounds a little like living on earth with covid, or at least the worst case scenario of it. I think if any of us found ourselves in that situation, and realized that talking our way out was going to be of no use, I think most of us, who still had any control of our minds and common sense would do what I would most certainly do. I would attempt to position myself to spar against the smallest biker I could find in that gang. The biker I believe that would give me the best chance of survival. That is just common sense.

What I am talking about in the above posts is the same thing. Your covid rumble, so to speak, is going to go down. You cannot avoid it. So your next best thing is to find the smallest covid infection to tackle. The smallest covid infection will be the one with the lowest dose of infection and that comes from the shortest exposure time and/or the lowest concentration of virus that you are exposed to.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Do it because your common sense tells you that it is the safest thing to do.


Common sense is varied and highly depends on each persons situation. A blanket statement of pretending to know how much of a virus dose you'll get from a given environment/encounter is a big guessing game as well as how fast your body responds to control the spread of it.

Lets look at a few example people:
1> 31 years old, good health, never taken a covid vaccine, likely never will.
2> 42 years old, good health, taken 2 vaccine shots.
3> 62 years old, below average health, taken 3 vaccine shots.
4> 66 years old, terminal illness, taken 2 vaccine shots.

So should each of these people try to get a small viral load infection?


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Common sense is varied and highly depends on each persons situation. A blanket statement of pretending to know how much of a virus dose you'll get from a given environment/encounter is a big guessing game as well as how fast your body responds to control the spread of it.
> 
> Lets look at a few example people:
> 1> 31 years old, good health, never taken a covid vaccine, likely never will.
> 2> 42 years old, good health, taken 2 vaccine shots.
> 3> 62 years old, below average health, taken 3 vaccine shots.
> 4> 66 years old, terminal illness, taken 2 vaccine shots.
> 
> So should each of these people try to get a small viral load infection?


Yes, and it is easy and simple to see and understand. Every one of those people will have a better outcome with 10 minutes of exposure (maskless in a retail store) then 4 hours of exposure (maskless at a family get together) to the virus. None of them are going to get the opportunity to avoid it, forever, so make the first one as easy as you can. That first one should help considerably with the numerous times of exposure they are going to experience over the rest of their lives.

That is the new plan. Trying to avoid exposure will be a losing plan for everyone, so we need to figure out the next best one.

By the way, I am suggesting the more vulnerable implement my suggestion AFTER this next wave starts to dissipate. The infections offered by a person previously infected, but infected again, should be much safer as well (lower concentration of virus). So the rest of us more healthy citizens should do the country a solid, remove our masks, and take our next inoculating exposure quickly and easily, to help protect everyone else more vulnerable...and ourselves in the future.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> I will attempt to end this discussion with one last analogy, that I hope might bring to light the importance of what I am saying. Think about a situation where you find yourself trapped in an alley, with a few other people, and blocking your exit to safety is a very angry biker gang intent on unleashing severe physical harm to all of you. As you watch them swinging their chains, gripping their clubs and pointing their knives at you, you will undoubtedly be disappointed that you have become trapped in this predicament, but I would imagine you will attempt to figure out what you should do to survive.
> 
> Sounds a little like living on earth with covid, or at least the worst case scenario of it. I think if any of us found ourselves in that situation, and realized that talking our way out was going to be of no use, I think most of us, who still had any control of our minds and common sense would do what I would most certainly do. I would attempt to position myself to spar against the smallest biker I could find in that gang. The biker I believe that would give me the best chance of survival. That is just common sense.
> 
> What I am talking about in the above posts is the same thing. Your covid rumble, so to speak, is going to go down. You cannot avoid it. So your next best thing is to find the smallest covid infection to tackle. The smallest covid infection will be the one with the lowest dose of infection and that comes from the shortest exposure time and/or the lowest concentration of virus that you are exposed to.


 ... going to respond only to your "analogy" there. Gangsters/thugs/robbers in an alleyway does not equate ro an invisible virus. Besides, what the heck is one doing in an alleyway anyways (without further details)? 

*Fast forward to "this year's 2022" mode of protection there *- bear spray + cellphone to video capture and then call 911. This is for the weaker sex. 

As for a guy, if he's prepared to be in an alleyway in the first place, it's most likely he's carrying a handgun. OK?

PS: No wonder the millennials, or GENZs whatever continue to denigrate the older population given these kind of "advice aka suggestions".


----------



## OptsyEagle

We are all trapped in the covid alley Beaver. What each person does to protect themselves is up to them. They can do nothing and eventually fight off any random biker/virus that randomly decides to pick them as their target or they can maneuver themselves towards the smallest one they can find, giving them a much better chance of survival. 

It was just an analogy to illustrate that point and I think it explained the suggestion quite well.


----------



## sags

Where is the evidence that there is such a thing as "small doses" of infection or that "dosage" makes any difference at all ?

Once it gains entry, the virus replicates itself quickly while not revealing itself through symptoms until days later.

I doubt a "small initial dose" or a "large initial dose" makes any difference by the time the symptoms reveal the presence of the virus.

The virus replicates and spreads to different parts of the body.....the lungs, heart, kidneys, liver.....differently in each patient.

The virus is more of a blood disease than a respiratory disease, which is why the symptoms and damage are often unrelated to the lungs.

ER doctors say they are seeing a lot of re-infections now, and those people are sick enough to seek hospital care.

The numbers speak for themselves......infections are off the charts, hospitalizations are rising, emergency rooms are full, and ICU cases and deaths are rising.

Relaxing all restrictions when facing another wave of infection was simply a bad idea, as many doctors and experts have been stating publicly.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> *Where is the evidence that there is such a thing as "small doses" of infection or that "dosage" makes any difference at all ?*
> 
> Once it gains entry, the virus replicates itself quickly while not revealing itself through symptoms.
> 
> I doubt a "small initial dose" or a "large initial dose" makes any difference by the time the symptoms reveal the presence of the virus days later.


 ... from the virological (sic) course at night school.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> We are all trapped in the covid alley Beaver. What each person does to protect themselves is up to them. They can do nothing and eventually fight off any random biker/virus that randomly decides to pick them as their target or they can maneuver themselves towards the smallest one they can find, giving them a much better chance of survival.
> 
> It was just an analogy to illustrate that point and I think it explained the suggestion quite well.


 ... so that's why let nature take its course. At this point in time after 2+ years, I think most people knows what's best and can decide for themselves. The tools are out there. Just no magic bullet. 

If you ask for my honest opinion, I don't see this pandemic ever ending as long as world travel is wide-open.


----------



## sags

Beaver101 said:


> ... from the virological (sic) course at night school.


Where the health/gym teacher also told the boys and girls about condoms.....a different kind of "protection".

Hey......maybe that would work against covid....


----------



## Beaver101

^ The Dump beat him to a solution - use bleach first!


----------



## sags

Listening to what people who have had covid are saying, the first 40 hours of infection after the symptoms start can be absolutely brutal.

I think that is a big warning for people who have any health problems or are in the older age groups. They may need hospital care.

A guy who was an anti-covid influencer, got sick and refused to believe it was covid. The police found him dead in his apartment two weeks later.

Point is......the general consensus the virus is benign may be true for some, but not all people. Everyone has a different experience.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> Where is the evidence that there is such a thing as "small doses" of infection or that "dosage" makes any difference at all ?
> 
> Once it gains entry, the virus replicates itself quickly while not revealing itself through symptoms until days later.
> 
> I doubt a "small initial dose" or a "large initial dose" makes any difference by the time the symptoms reveal the presence of the virus.
> 
> The virus replicates and spreads to different parts of the body.....the lungs, heart, kidneys, liver.....differently in each patient.


Take any age group. List only the people with no comorbidities and observe the "huge" differences in outcomes from that group of equivalent homosapiens. Why do you think such a disparity of outcomes comes about? Infectious dose and future outcome is a relationship that has been well known for years now. I was taught it in 1986. Your initial dose of infection is the primary determinant of every outcome for each infection for any similar group of people.

It should not be difficult to understand. An infection comes from you breathing in live virus. Your outcome is determined by how quickly your bodies immune response neutralizes that virus. Every single virus needs to be neutralized. Do you not think that it would be easier and quicker for a person's body to neutralize 100,000 viruses, then it would for a person's body to neutralize 100,000,000,000 viruses?

That right answer is, it is easier. The people in the ICU right now obtained too high of dose of infection for their bodies to fight off. Similar people, with similar age and comorbidity are dealing with a few cold symptoms from their infection, only because their exposure was significantly less then the ICU patient's was.

This is not difficult stuff and I have been over this many times before. It is critical knowledge for everyone's safety. Please research if you have to but ignoring it can be dangerous.


----------



## sags

Matt Gurney is a common sense "middle of the road" conservative talk show host on Canada Talks, and he said he was feeling badly and tested negative, negative, negative, negative, negative......while he was really sick for 3 days.

Then a week later after he felt fine........he tested positive. I think the rapid tests are pretty much useless.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Yes, and it is easy and simple to see and understand. Every one of those people will have a better outcome with 10 minutes of exposure (maskless in a retail store) then 4 hours of exposure (maskless at a family get together) to the virus.


So even the terminal ill example should try to get infected in a retail setting, even though there is a high chance a covid infection might kill them?



OptsyEagle said:


> None of them are going to get the opportunity to avoid it, forever, so make the first one as easy as you can.


The terminal ill example has a fairly high chance of never getting covid, they will likely die from the disease first.


----------



## sags

This virus replicates itself so quickly that the initial dose is a non-factor. In a few hours the viral load has already ramped up.

The science classes in 1986 weren't talking about a virus like covid, which is highly infectious and replicates so quickly.

As was noted when this strain of the covid virus first appeared...........this is a "novel" virus.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> So even the terminal ill example should try to get infected in a retail setting, even though there is a high chance a covid infection might kill them?
> 
> 
> The terminal ill example has a fairly high chance of never getting covid, they will likely die from the disease first.


I did not say that. What I said at the end of my post was this:



> By the way, I am suggesting the more vulnerable implement my suggestion AFTER this next wave starts to dissipate. The infections offered by a person previously infected, but infected again, should be much safer as well (lower concentration of virus). So the rest of us more healthy citizens should do the country a solid, remove our masks, and take our next inoculating exposure quickly and easily, to help protect everyone else more vulnerable...and ourselves in the future.


Remember, none of us are going to be able to avoid this virus forever. I know everyone wants to and I suppose that's why they are desperately trying to still avoid it, but they will be unsuccessful. Whether healthy or not, we each need to make a plan on how we are going to survive from our exposures. I think I have given my suggestion in an understandable way so I will attempt to leave it there. Good luck to everyone.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> The people in the ICU right now obtained too high of dose of infection for their bodies to fight off.


BTW, have you seen any scientific test data showing infection outcomes based on initial viral load?

I do know of one such test started a while back but never could find the published results from it.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> This virus replicates itself so quickly that the initial dose is a non-factor. In a few hours the viral load has already ramped up.
> 
> The science classes in 1986 weren't talking about a virus like covid, which is highly infectious and replicates so quickly.
> 
> As was noted when this covid virus first appeared...........this is a "novel" virus.


Each virus replicates to another. Again. Do you not think that 100,000,000,000 viruses, breathed in on your initial dose of infection, will not replicate into a much more dangerous health situation then if you had of been smart enough to only intake 100,000 viruses when you were initially exposed?


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> BTW, have you seen any scientific test data showing infection outcomes based on initial viral load?
> 
> I do know of one such test started a while back but never could find the published results from it.


Yes. You and I have had this same conversation over a year ago. I am not going to google it for you. My caring is starting to dissipate. It is common sense. One just needs to open their mind to picture it and it all becomes obvious at that time.

If you do google it I think they call it "infectious dose". I am the only one that calls it "initial dose of infection" because that was the name used when I was taught the concept in 1986.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Yes. You and I have had this same conversation over a year ago. I am not going to google it for you. My caring is starting to dissipate. It is common sense. One just needs to open their mind to picture it and it all becomes obvious at that time.


I remember our previous chat. Just keep in mind what appears to be common sense to you doesn't mean it is correct for everyone.

Will probably take hours, which I don't have time right now (or maybe ever), to dig up some data which you likely don't want to discuss. I'll leave you with the results from a quick search, research quote from a covid study.

*"These findings imply that viral clearance is independent of the initial virus load, but may be regulated by the host immune response"*


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> I am not going to google it for you.


This paper and this paper seem to back up what you're saying.

_"In our opinion, the role of the dose of the initial inoculum in the transmission dynamics of SARS-CoV-2 has been neglected. Based on evidence from other infectious diseases and observations from the current SARS-CoV-2 transmission dynamics, immune responses against SARS-CoV-2, and the COVID-19 disease spectrum, we think that the dose-response relationship in the initial viral inoculum plays an important role in the severity of the COVID-19 epidemic.

Individual level: A person infected with a small dose viral inoculum will on average develop milder disease than a person infected with a high viral inoculum and vice versa. This is independent of other well-known risk factors for severity of disease, mainly old age, and co-morbidities, such as diabetes.

Cluster level: A person with asymptomatic infection or mild disease, will on average spread lower dose of the virus, and is less likely to transmit disease; and when the person transmits, the newly infected person is more likely to have mild disease compared to a person infected by a severely ill person, who spreads on average higher doses of the virus. This causes clusters and chains of milder cases or more severe cases.

Community level: In certain contexts, such as dense urban centres with a moderate climate, during the season that people live mostly indoors, the potential for intensive transmission and explosive outbreaks is higher than in rural areas, or in regions with a hot and humid climate where people live mostly outdoors. Hence, a cascade of intensive transmission is more likely in certain contexts than in others."_

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> *"These findings imply that viral clearance is independent of the initial virus load, but may be regulated by the host immune response"*


Not sure what that is above. Keep in mind that the importance of "infectious dose" is not well understood by the majority of people, even some of the so called experts.

Another example of infectious dose, that we all probably understand to some degree, is how a mask protects the healthy wearer. Most of us understand that the name "N95" is a description of a mask that is supposed to filter out 95% of the virus breathed through it. Obviously that means that 5% still gets into your breathing tracks and starts to replicate after that. The reason N95 masks are considered the holy grail of masks is because it is understood by scientists that if you can reduce any initial dose of infection by 95% or more, you may still be infected, but it is unlikely you will get really sick and die. It will become a much more manageable infection to fight off.

You can technically do the same thing by spending only 5% of the time exposed to an infectious source then what another person does. That would be pretty much the same as wearing an N95 mask. Hopefully that makes some sense.

I will leave it for everyone to ponder.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Now adding to what I am saying above, is if you only spend 5% of the time exposed, like a quick trip into a convenience store, AND you wear an N95 mask AND the infected person is also wearing a mask, the probability that any transmission occurs is pretty much zero.

All you have done is avoided a fairly safe infection that could have provided valuable immune boosting benefit for when you are eventually exposed again in perhaps a much more dangerous situation. Like a multi hour family get together. Something like an Easter dinner, for example.

That is what I am trying to point out. If you are healthy and fairly young you are not doing yourself any favours by putting on a mask to go into a convenience store for 5 minutes.


----------



## cainvest

like_to_retire said:


> This paper and this paper seem to back up what you're saying.
> 
> _"In our opinion, the role of the dose of the initial inoculum in the transmission dynamics of SARS-CoV-2 has been neglected. Based on evidence from other infectious diseases and observations from the current SARS-CoV-2 transmission dynamics, immune responses against SARS-CoV-2, and the COVID-19 disease spectrum, we think that the dose-response relationship in the initial viral inoculum plays an important role in the severity of the COVID-19 epidemic._


Also from your link above ...

_"Nevertheless, the exact role of the virus infective dose in the pathogenesis of SARS-CoV-2 remains to be defined. Specific studies in this case will increase our knowledge about the possible correlation between infective dose and COVID-19 progression"_


----------



## sags

Nobody is standing beside people who contact the virus, gathering data on the first initial load of virus.

The level of virus at a later date is immaterial to the initial dose. A person's immunity system and the virus itself determines the overall viral load.

The virus affects people differently. It attacks different organs in different people. 

It appears replication of the virus after initial infection, and where it spreads in individual bodies is the key factor.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> If you are healthy and fairly young you are not doing yourself any favours by putting on a mask to go into a convenience store for 5 minutes.


I tend to agree with the above, just not when applied to the entire population like those at high(er) risk.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> The level of virus at a later date is immaterial to the initial dose. A person's immunity system and the virus itself determines the overall viral load.


Seriously. You still think the number of viruses, you initially force your body to deal with, has no material effect at all to a person's final outcome? You are a lost cause my friend.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> I tend to agree with the above, just not when applied to the entire population like those at high(er) risk.


Well. Maybe my time here has not been completely wasted. Nice chatting with you.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Well. Maybe my time here has not been completely wasted. Nice chatting with you.


As I hope my responses are not completely wasted as well.


----------



## TomB16

We've known for two years that COVID death rates go up in regions where there are more people infected. If you get COVID in Florida your chances of dying were higher than if you got COVID in Minnesota (in the early going).

One of the benefits of James' slower approach is that it keeps the overall viral level lower. I expect this will keep the survivability ratio higher _for that particular strain_ than not trying to control the virus.

The down side, as I see it, is the thought of what happens when a more lethal strain comes along? You could easily be in a position where you will wish you had built your long term immunity on omicron. Once a person has been infected, their survival rate improves by two orders of magnitude, as best I can tell.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> Seriously. You still think the number of viruses, you initially force your body to deal with, has no material effect at all to a person's final outcome? You are a lost cause my friend.


 ... in the practical (aka realistic) world, no one knows what exactly their viral dosage is. It's not like one can "measure" it. It's very much dependent on your immunity systems.

I mean you hear stories/experience (plenty of on major news outlets) where someone (likely older or worst with a comorbidity) did everything they could to prevent catching Covid. Ie. next to no exposure or so they thought. But some how they end up catching it and next thing you know they're dead.

How about this. Knowing what we know now, do you want a short of Delta or do you want a Venti of Omicron (whatever version)?


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> We've known for two years that COVID death rates go up in regions where there are more people infected. If you get COVID in Florida your chances of dying were higher than if you got COVID in Minnesota (in the early going).
> 
> One of the benefits of James' slower approach is that it keeps the overall viral level lower. I expect this will keep the survivability ratio higher _for that particular strain_ than not trying to control the virus.
> 
> The down side, as I see it, is the thought of what happens when a more lethal strain comes along? You could easily be in a position where you will wish you had built your long term immunity on omicron. *Once a person has been infected, their survival rate improves by two orders of magnitude, as best I can tell.*


 ... yes, you can survive Covid multiple of times just as you survive the flu there but then you'll also be living with the long haul effects, by being (super?)-lucky.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... yes, you can survive Covid multiple of times just as you survive the flu there but then you'll also be living with the long haul effects, by being (super?)-lucky.


I've had COVID twice and I'm not aware of any long haul effects.

If we were local to each other, perhaps we could go to the gym and see who can out lift the other. lol!


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I've had COVID twice and I'm not aware of any long haul effects.
> 
> If we were local to each other, perhaps we could go to the gym and see who can out lift the other. lol!


 ... you win hands-down with the lift.

I came down with a bad "flu" (as there was no official "Covid" label) a decade ago and ended up with 1. unknown allergy, 2. easy sinus infections, and 3. asthma .... to this day of which all I never had prior to catching that bad flu. No long haul effects you say? And this is just the "flu" - a real bad one which repeats annually causing miseries. Of course, my immune systems is built up as I get my annual flu shots too to prevent hospitalization. And it's without doubt, I caught it/them at work or enroute to work. No one in my household had one at that time and I gave it to everyone else. I narrowly missed ER that time.


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> Today's (Thursday April 7, 2022) news:
> Scrapping masks a 'huge mistake:' Opposition parties call on Ford government to bring back mask mandates
> 
> Versus 1 week ago (Thursday March 31, 2022) news:
> Health minister insists Ontario is 'staying the course' on lifting restrictions amid sixth wave of pandemic
> 
> Let's see if Elliott and Ford along with her/his "top" medical advisor get to eat their words.
> 
> Repeat, I can't wait for the June 2nd election to be upon us, Ontarians.


Today (Friday April 8, 2022) news:
Bring back mask mandate, Catholic teachers tell Ford government

I'm going to continue updating this post to see how long Elliott, Ford or Moore are gonna to play the mute game.


----------



## TomB16

If mandates were in place, opposition would be railing against them.

Meanwhile, an Israeli study suggests a second booster will be fully effective for about three weeks with immunity starting to wane at 4 weeks.

The Israeli study ended on march 2 so I'm sure more data will come out of it, over time. It will be interesting to learn how quickly immunity tails off.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> If mandates were in place, opposition would be railing against them.
> 
> Meanwhile, an Israeli study suggests a second booster will be fully effective for about three weeks with immunity starting to wane at 4 weeks.
> 
> The Israeli study ended on march 2 so I'm sure more data will come out of it, over time. It will be interesting to learn how quickly immunity tails off.


 ... I'm sure there'll be "opposition" railing against them and who would that be? The Libs? The NDPrs? Or the Cons themselves? How about those Freedumb Convoyees' excuse? 

Both the "public and now the Catholic" schools are asking for a return of masking since the teachers' absenteeisms are getting out of hand. Or should the parents just send them kids to school for the free recess and baby-sitting services?

If Elliott, Ford or Moore (in particular) are not going to address this. How about Mr. FlipFlopping Leccee, Ontario's Education minister whose salary Ontarians pay dearly for, offer a beep?

Besides, if Quebec can extend its mask mandate, then why can't this be done for Ontario? Are Ontarians more rowdy than Quebecrs? Is the entire Ford government keeping their mouths shut on this until June 2nd, more than 50 days to go?

And what's the use of opening up the booking portal or advertising the 4th shot? Particularly in conjunction with your post about its "waning effectiveness" in Israel ... isn't this self-defeating aka self-slapping in the mouth?

If you've been following closely, the current vaccines (including the "2nd" "booster") hasn't even been updated for Omicron, if I'm not mistaken. Or have you heard Pfizer/Moderna announced their vaccine now covers Omicron? No wonder the vaccine "wanes".


----------



## james4beach

If I was a teacher, I'm not sure what I'd do with this situation.

Covid spreads like wildfire in schools, pretty much all the kids have it. They are constantly spreading it among each other and to their families.

What about the teachers in their 50s or 60s or those with health problems, around these kids all day? One of my most influential teachers in high school had both heart and kidney problems. Thank goodness he retired before covid.


----------



## TomB16

Beav and James... you are going to love this one! lol!!!!

School teachers tend to be younger people. I would suggest any teacher under 50 should go to class unless they feel sufficiently sick as to affect their performance. Sometimes, you just don't feel up to working or going to school. Other than that, go. I would direct students the same. Masks optional for everyone.



Immunocompromised teachers and students excepted, of course.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> If I was a teacher, I'm not sure what I'd do with this situation.


 .. one thing is absolute, if a teacher (or anyone) is sick (and I don't mean pop a Tylenol and the headache goes away), he/she can't teach or do much. Period. Any sick person will not be performing optimally.



> Covid spreads like wildfire in schools, pretty much all the kids have it. They are constantly spreading it among each other and to their families.


 ... well, shouldn't the Education Minister in consultation with his boss or peers or his team of experts have a contingency plan or even "a" "plan" of some sort? If you asked for my honest opinion, they should have moved (ie. quickly, not like what happened? did someone get rolled over by a truck?) to online learning. 

I mean for heaven's sake, it's 2+ years into a pandemic and they (the education administrators/experts whatever) haven't got this figured out by now? Be jesus. Oh, I forgot they're still sorting out the mental issues.



> What about the teachers in their 50s or 60s or those with health problems, around these kids all day? One of my most influential teachers in high school had both heart and kidney problems. Thank goodness he retired before covid.


 ... I guess that's part of the job - at least teachers get the summer off.


----------



## TomB16

China's best day of zero COVID lockdowns yielded a 7.5% increase in their published statistics. I have no idea what the real statistics are. I doubt anyone does.

A typical day has been roughly 10% COVID case ramp since the lock down.

Note: I am citing reported cases, not infections.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Beav and James... you are going to love this one! lol!!!!
> 
> School teachers tend to be younger people. I would suggest any teacher under 50 should go to class unless they feel sufficiently sick as to affect their performance. Sometimes, you just don't feel up to working or going to school. Other than that, go. I would direct students the same. Masks optional for everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> Immunocompromised teachers and students excepted, of course.


 ... masks are optional currently. The teachers are demanding them back if they're going to return to the classroom ... to be further sick or getting an extra dose of viruses?

How about this? A lawsuit on unsafe employment conditions from their union might get Ford and team's heads out of their axxes, sand.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> China's best day of zero COVID lockdowns yielded a 7.5% increase in their published statistics. I have no idea what the real statistics are. I doubt anyone does.


 .. then don't read into them. It's like FoxNews ... even you paid me, I won't google it, let alone watch it.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... masks are optional currently. The teachers are demanding them back if they're going to return to the classroom ... to further sick or how about an extra dose of viruses?


Do you mean, extra dose of vaccine? If so, why would that be good?


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Do you mean, extra dose of vaccine? If so, why would that be good?


 ... no I mean extra extra extra ... doses of viruses. Not vaccine.

I wouldn't be surprised pro-vaxxers will now turn anti-vax with the lack of response from our "leaders".


----------



## TomB16

Early in the virus tracking, New York noticed that COVID care nurses had the same infection rate as the rest of the population. No higher, despite having relentless exposure to the virus.

I do hope the hysteria clears, at some point.

If you're scared of COVID: wash your hands, wear a proper fitting N95 mask, go for a walk (exercise), eat better (nutrition), stay hydrated, get as much sun as you can.

COVID is light years from the bubonic plague. The plague had a 10% mortality rate. COVID mortality is below 1% for unvaccinated people and something like 0.0082% for vaccinated people (CDC stat from March 2021). What's more, the people skewing this statistic are older people.

Wash your freaking hands. Even if you get COVID, hand washing will reduce the severity of your illness.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> How about this? A lawsuit on unsafe employment conditions from their union might get Ford and team's heads out of their axxes, sand.


I agree, the union should fight for the teachers. Those are hazardous work conditions.

There are many things the government could do, including adding HEPA filters into the classrooms. I think that if a teacher wore a 95 or 99 level mask, and there was good HEPA filters in the classroom, it would be safe enough.

The government should also be supplying those N95/KN95/CAN95 masks for teachers as these can get expensive if you're buying them for daily use.


----------



## londoncalling

It is unlikely the union can do much if it is outside the CBA or the province has introduced legislation. All of the protest being discussed about what's going on in Ontario was already debated in Alberta and Saskatchewan.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I agree, the union should fight for the teachers. Those are hazardous work conditions.
> 
> There are many things the government could do, including adding HEPA filters into the classrooms. I think that if a teacher wore a 95 or 99 level mask, and there was good HEPA filters in the classroom, it would be safe enough.


 ... I think most of the schools have had their filtration systems upgraded or replaced with HEPA filters. There's also the strategy of having the windows opened if temperature/weather permitting.



> The government should also be supplying those N95/KN95/CAN95 masks for teachers as these can get expensive if you're buying them for daily use.


 ... LOL!!!

Prior to the last lockdown or before the 4th wave hit, the teachers had to "fight" with their school boards/government (here's the link - dated Oct. 13, 2021 (less than 6 months ago): https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/teacher-n95-mask-york-region-1.6207965) on being "able" to wear their "OWN (aka self-bought)" N95/KN95 masks even since they felt the cloth/surgical masks did not provide adequate protection. The teachers weren't allowed to wear their own bought N95/KN95 masks for some assinined reason - maybe frightened the kids?

After a few weeks fight, they were then allowed as the 5th wave hit ...it would not surprise me that those masks are still NOT provided by the government since it's so reluctant to introduce back the mandate.


----------



## Beaver101

londoncalling said:


> It is unlikely the union can do much if it is outside the CBA or the province has introduced legislation. All of the protest being discussed about what's going on in Ontario was already debated in Alberta and Saskatchewan.


 ... so now Ontario is going to follow Alberta and Saskatchewan's footsteps? If so, I can see this as The-End for the Ford's government.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Early in the virus tracking, New York noticed that COVID care nurses had the same infection rate as the rest of the population. No higher, despite having relentless exposure to the virus.
> 
> I do hope the hysteria clears, at some point.
> 
> If you're scared of COVID: wash your hands, wear a proper fitting N95 mask, go for a walk (exercise), eat better (nutrition), stay hydrated, get as much sun as you can.
> 
> COVID is light years from the bubonic plague. The plague had a 10% mortality rate. COVID mortality is below 1% for unvaccinated people and something like 0.0082% for vaccinated people (CDC stat from March 2021). What's more, the people skewing this statistic are older people.
> 
> Wash your freaking hands. Even if you get COVID, hand washing will reduce the severity of your illness.


 ... I like your handle. Only I would change that to coincide with the Youtube pic/video "Stay away from people who don't wash their hands. Eeww, eewww, eewww. Pigs are even cleaner."


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> The teachers weren't allowed to wear their own bought N95/KN95 masks for some assinined reason - maybe frightened the kids?


Yeah that's incredible. It's been known for a long time (at least since last summer) that cloth masks do nothing, and surgical masks are minimally effective unless they have a great seal. The 95 and 99 level masks are the only ones really that can significantly protect against the more infectious strains.

Layering a surgical mask with a second, snug-fitting cloth or synthetic mask is also pretty good but is a lot more work IMO.

Most of the public still knows this, as I've been trying to buy a certain 95 level mask but they are completely sold out. I recently got in touch with a major retail supplier and they said huge shipments are coming to their warehouses next week. Customer demand is incredibly strong. I actually edited this post to remove the exact brand and type because the last thing I need is more people trying to buy these.

The public doesn't seem to think the threat is gone yet.


----------



## MrMatt

I'd say slightly more than half of people aren't wearing masks.

Apparently rapid antigen tests are useless for Omicron.








Vaccinated Canadians can have COVID-19 symptoms despite testing negative. Here’s why - National | Globalnews.ca


Experts say a person may test negative for COVID-19 on a rapid antigen test despite being infected, partly due to how quickly vaccination clears the amount of virus in their body.




globalnews.ca





I think at this point there is pretty much nothing we can do. I do wear an N95 mask to at least get lower doses of exposure.


----------



## TomB16

Are you guys saying the school board wants to force teachers to wear provided cloth masks, instead of their own N95? If so, this is the sort of issue a union should be able to sort out. If a union can't even sort out a critical health issue such as this, what point is there in having a union?

Perhaps I missed something or perhaps something is being misrepresented.


----------



## TomB16

I just read this....









They’re ‘floppy’ and don’t fit: Parents want to know why children were given adult-sized masks


Parents and teachers alike are saying the masks supplied by the province of Ontario for children who headed back to school Wednesday are ill-fitting and cheaply-made.




www.thestar.com





The Teacher's Union needs to step up and handle this or de-certify. At some point, a thinking person needs to cause the school board extensive damage in a court of law. A school board should be run by adults. That is ridiculous.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> I just read this....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They’re ‘floppy’ and don’t fit: Parents want to know why children were given adult-sized masks
> 
> 
> Parents and teachers alike are saying the masks supplied by the province of Ontario for children who headed back to school Wednesday are ill-fitting and cheaply-made.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thestar.com


Yeah, what the hell is going on over there?

Canada has been "amateur hour" on masks since day one. First we didn't have any, I was buying high thread count pillow cases and trying to make my own for god sake. I flew halfway across the continent in 2020 with a pillowcase strapped to my face using rubber bands.

Then our Public Health people (in every province) didn't catch on that the bloody virus was airborne. They kept shrugging off masks while scientists worldwide were screaming for people to put on good masks.

And someone please tell me that the government has at least now built up a stockpile of medical grade masks. With the availability of modern synthetic manufacturing, these are "space age" materials. Truly very advanced technology. I find it very sad that so many people are relying on loose cotton masks when we have actual *technology* that can stop viruses.

Sometimes, technology is frivolous but this is a situation where modern materials and manufacturing can directly prevent illness and save lives.


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> Then our Public Health people (in every province) didn't catch on that the bloody virus was airborne. They kept shrugging off masks while scientists worldwide were screaming for people to put on good masks.


One of the things that I don't understand is why two geographically and societally close areas like Ontario and Quebec have almost the same COVID case counts and yet Ontario removed most restrictions including masks in March while Quebec has kept it nailed down with mask mandates extended to the end of April? 

Shouldn't Quebec's graph be flat, while Ontario's rising - Do masks work or not?


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I just read this....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They’re ‘floppy’ and don’t fit: Parents want to know why children were given adult-sized masks
> 
> 
> Parents and teachers alike are saying the masks supplied by the province of Ontario for children who headed back to school Wednesday are ill-fitting and cheaply-made.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thestar.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Teacher's Union needs to step up and handle this or de-certify. At some point, a thinking person needs to cause the school board extensive damage in a court of law. A school board should be run by adults. That is ridiculous.


 ... yep, you read that right. And teachers were forced to wear the blue surgical/cloth mask that the "province provided" (forgot about that), not the N95/KN95 ones. If not, then they were "disciplined" (forgot about that too as per the Oct.13,2021 article I linked in my earlier post.)

Let's see how long or many teachers go absenteeisms before anyone (their union, Ford's government) pay attention. That would be pretty cool for the kids - going to school to do whatever they want, nothing to say a waste of taxpayers' money.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Yeah, what the hell is going on over there?
> 
> Canada has been "amateur hour" on masks since day one. First we didn't have any, I was buying high thread count pillow cases and trying to make my own for god sake.* I flew halfway across the continent in 2020 with a pillowcase strapped to my face using rubber bands. *


 ... LOL!!! Sorry no offense. I don't disbelieve.



> Then our Public Health people (in every province) didn't catch on that the bloody virus was airborne. They kept shrugging off masks while scientists worldwide were screaming for people to put on good masks.
> 
> And someone please tell me that the government has at least now built up a stockpile of medical grade masks. With the availability of modern synthetic manufacturing, these are "space age" materials. Truly very advanced technology. I find it very sad that so many people are relying on loose cotton masks when we have actual *technology* that can stop viruses.
> 
> Sometimes, technology is frivolous but this is a situation where modern materials and manufacturing can directly prevent illness and save lives.


 ... it's the Ford's government now. There's a June 2nd election coming up and he's trying to please (if not bribe) as many Ontarians as possible.


----------



## Beaver101

like_to_retire said:


> One of the things that I don't understand is why two geographically and societally close areas like Ontario and Quebec have almost the same COVID case counts and yet Ontario removed most restrictions including masks in March while Quebec has kept it nailed down with mask mandates extended to the end of April?
> 
> Shouldn't Quebec's graph be flat, while Ontario's rising - Do masks work or not?
> 
> View attachment 23047


 ... ... it's the Ford's government now. There's a June 2nd election coming up and he's trying to please (if not bribe) as many Ontarians as possible. 

The mask mandate (along with the proof of vax) was removed for basically all "public" places except high risk transmission areas such public transit, hospitals, healthcare settings, and LTCs. This decision was done for March 21 (and kept) just before the 6th wave hit which we Ontarians, are in now. And the Ford government has stated it's not bulging that decision to bring back that mandate regardless of what "other" medical experts (including those whose specialty is infectious disease but not on his team). And now the proof is here with the 6th wave. 

Quebec is always ahead of us and Legault has made the right decision to "extend" that mask mandate since I gather Legault has figured out his fellow citizens has paid enough of the price for his lesson. I gather Ford hasn't as he and his team is so confident about winning another term so they won't bulge and now resort to playing the silence game. Typical "leadership" tactic if not a display of indecisiveness. How competent.


----------



## like_to_retire

Beaver101 said:


> it's the Ford's government now.


You completely ignored my serious question and responded with political clap-trap. Stop it please.

ltr


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I'd say slightly more than half of people aren't wearing masks.


 .. not here in Toronto. 80% of its citizens are still wearing it. On the streets, working in the store, the banks, the restaurants and the library. And those places are no longer mandated, your choice. However, 100% (aka mandate remains) on public transit, hospitals, doctor/dental office, and LTCs.



> Apparently rapid antigen tests are useless for Omicron.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccinated Canadians can have COVID-19 symptoms despite testing negative. Here’s why - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Experts say a person may test negative for COVID-19 on a rapid antigen test despite being infected, partly due to how quickly vaccination clears the amount of virus in their body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


 ... that's why the Ford government is giving them RATs out for "free" so you can test to your heart's delight. Or play doctor/scientist which reminds me of damianster13 ... his solution for the pandemic was RATs. ROFLMFAO.



> I think at this point there is pretty much nothing we can do. I do wear an N95 mask to at least get lower doses of exposure.


 ... contradictory statements here.


----------



## Beaver101

like_to_retire said:


> You completely ignored my serious question and responded with political clap-trap. Stop it please.
> 
> ltr


 ... everything is politically related in this world so what political clap-trap? Ask MrMatt - I don't disagree with him on that. Politics is the least of my interest but then this has become so politically related so it's not a clap-trap per se.

As for your "serious" question - does mask work or not? It's no brainer - it does and your graph points that to you. Quebec extended its mask mandate so their numbers are not going to rise as fast to flat. Ontario hasn't so it's catching up. How difficult is it to figure that out?

Also, if you're truly "serious" about your question - you should be asking the medical experts and see what they tell you. And then it's your choice to believe it or not. 

No one here on this forum can tell you with an absolute 100% certainty guaranteed that masks work if you are looking for a non-political clap-trap answer.


----------



## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> One of the things that I don't understand is why two geographically and societally close areas like Ontario and Quebec have almost the same COVID case counts and yet Ontario removed most restrictions including masks in March while Quebec has kept it nailed down with mask mandates extended to the end of April?
> 
> Shouldn't Quebec's graph be flat, while Ontario's rising - Do masks work or not?
> 
> View attachment 23047


It is a difficult question to answer and can only be speculated upon at this time. If I had to say I would think it is a function of the following:

1) testing differences
2) the only difference mask removal produces, within the two provinces, is mainly in environments of low time exposure (there are exceptions of course). As I have stated before, that tends to produce more mild infections, and mild infections tend to transmit mild infections, and mild infections get neutralized days sooner then dangerous infections do. A test can only pick up virus that is there, at that time, and at some minimum level of viral load.

and now we come to the most important reason, in my opinion

3) Although Ontario has removed the mandate to wear a mask, I have personally observed, that in my community, mask wearing has continued at about an average level of 70% to 80% of the people I come across indoors. It varies but I would say I have that number pretty close. So in other words, people in Ontario are still wearing their masks.

So in summary, what you are seeing is probably a combination of those 3 effects.


----------



## HappilyRetired

And then there is the most obvious answer:

4. Lockdowns don't work


----------



## Beaver101

^ Might as well add,

#. And neither will the pandemic end.


----------



## sags

Yesterday's home opener for the Blue Jays..........45,000 fans packed in and many were not wearing masks.

I turned the game off to prevent the viruses from oozing out of the television screen into our living room.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Don't blame you for stopping to view the disgust. 

Latest for Ontario (Sat. April 9, 2022), here it comes again:

Ontario reports 11 net new COVID-19 deaths, 1,188 hospitalizations

_



Last Updated Saturday, April 9, 2022

Ontario reported 11 net new COVID-19 deaths and nearly 1,200 hospitalizations on Saturday.

The Ministry of Health says 1,188 people are currently hospitalized with the virus, up from 1,135 yesterday and from 855 a week ago. *Today marks a nearly 40 per cent week-over-week increase in hospitalizations.*

Forty-five per cent of hospitalized patients were admitted to hospital for COVID-19-related reasons and 55 per cent were admitted for reasons other than the virus, but also tested positive for COVID-19. 

Meanwhile, 168 of hospitalized patients are in intensive care, up by three from seven days ago. ...

Click to expand...

_


----------



## andrewf

like_to_retire said:


> One of the things that I don't understand is why two geographically and societally close areas like Ontario and Quebec have almost the same COVID case counts and yet Ontario removed most restrictions including masks in March while Quebec has kept it nailed down with mask mandates extended to the end of April?
> 
> Shouldn't Quebec's graph be flat, while Ontario's rising - Do masks work or not?
> 
> View attachment 23047


Can we really compare case numbers anymore? We gave up on testing months ago.


----------



## TomB16

Here is a bit of info regarding the Israeli 4th dose study.





  








Screenshot_20220409_132359.png




__
TomB16


__
9 mo ago
















Protection by a Fourth Dose of BNT162b2 against Omicron in Israel | NEJM


Original Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — Protection by a Fourth Dose of BNT162b2 against Omicron in Israel



www.nejm.org


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> And then there is the most obvious answer:
> 
> 4. Lockdowns don't work


Lockdowns absolutely DO work, they're just not perfect and they're really "expensive" in terms of dollars, quality of life, political capital etc.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Lockdowns absolutely DO work, they're just not perfect and they're really "expensive" in terms of dollars, quality of life, political capital etc.


I don't think anyone is advocating for lockdowns.

What's needed are tactically implemented safeguards during high risk times. Ontario is in such a time right now. Requiring masks, and also banning high risk / large gatherings, would help slow the rate of community transmission.

We don't have to have lockdowns to protect ourselves from rapid covid spread. I actually think a bigger problem is behavioural, that once you tell people "everything is OK" *they think* they don't have to be careful any more. And they stop being careful.

Here in BC, the transit systems no longer require masks. I think this is ludicrous. You should see how jam-packed the buses and trains are in Vancouver. I've contacted the transit system and asked them to require masks. Then I contacted my city councilor, who replied that she agrees but the city can't set TransLink's policy.

Public Health can require masks on public transit -- in a heartbeat. This is what Public Health _is supposed to be doing... _they have have the power specifically to enforce these kinds of public safety measures.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Can we really compare case numbers anymore? We gave up on testing months ago.


I think that's right. Measurements of cases are unreliable, and they differ between provinces. There could be completely different methodologies; they aren't testing the broad population.

This is something that makes me really anxious about how Canada is handling covid. It seems to me that we're operating blind.

How much covid is circulating? Is it trending up or down? At least we know it's trending up right now.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I don't think anyone is advocating for lockdowns.
> 
> What's needed are tactically implemented safeguards during high risk times. Ontario is in such a time right now. Requiring masks, and also banning high risk / large gatherings, would help slow the rate of community transmission.
> 
> We don't have to have lockdowns to protect ourselves from rapid covid spread. I actually think a bigger problem is behavioural, that once you tell people "everything is OK" *they think* they don't have to be careful any more. And they stop being careful.
> 
> Here in BC, the transit systems no longer require masks. I think this is ludicrous. You should see how jam-packed the buses and trains are in Vancouver. I've contacted the transit system and asked them to require masks. Then I contacted my city councilor, who replied that she agrees but the city can't set TransLink's policy.
> 
> Public Health can require masks on public transit -- in a heartbeat. This is what Public Health _is supposed to be doing... _they have have the power specifically to enforce these kinds of public safety measures.


I think masking makes sense, if only to reduce the amount of virus you're exposed to.

I'm not sure banning high risk settings will fly right now, even masking seems a bit unfeasible.

Maybe if it was clear over 1k ppl were in hospitals, and wearing a mask when possible is recommended might help.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I don't think anyone is advocating for lockdowns.
> 
> What's needed are tactically implemented safeguards during high risk times. Ontario is in such a time right now. Requiring masks, and also banning high risk / large gatherings, would help slow the rate of community transmission.
> 
> *We don't have to have lockdowns to protect ourselves from rapid covid spread. I actually think a bigger problem is behavioural, that once you tell people "everything is OK" they think they don't have to be careful any more. And they stop being careful.*
> 
> Here in BC, the transit systems no longer require masks. I think this is ludicrous. You should see how jam-packed the buses and trains are in Vancouver. I've contacted the transit system and asked them to require masks. Then I contacted my city councilor, who replied that she agrees but the city can't set TransLink's policy.
> 
> *Public Health can require masks on public transit -- in a heartbeat. This is what Public Health is supposed to be doing... they have have the power specifically to enforce these kinds of public safety measures.*


 ... bingo with the 2 bolded points! Will get to your 2nd point (last paragraph with next post).

The bullseye is that red bolded word "behavioural". If people took this disease seriously and take all the necessary preventions/caution aka stop being so selfish, then we can get rid of this pandemic earlier than later. And there is no need for any "mandates". Seriously if one thinks about it, why do "adult citizens" need "mandates" for?


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Don't blame you for stopping to view the disgust.
> 
> Latest for Ontario (Sat. April 9, 2022), here it comes again:
> 
> Ontario reports 11 net new COVID-19 deaths, 1,188 hospitalizations


 ... update for Ontario:

Ontario's COVID-19 sixth wave linked to lifting of mask mandates: PHO



> _Last Updated Saturday, April 9, 2022 6:55PM EDT
> 
> *The recent rise in COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations in Ontario that has led to the sixth wave is linked to the Ford government’s decision to lift mask mandates in most public settings, the province’s public health agency **suggested in a new brief.*
> 
> *“Close monitoring of epidemiological trends since March 21, 2022 (the date of mask mandates removal) suggests a corresponding temporal association with a subsequent increase in confirmed COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations,” the report published Friday by Public Health Ontario (PHO) read.*
> 
> The agency noted that the full impact of lifting the mandate might not be observable due to limited PCR testing and lagging hospitalization data.
> 
> Ontario is currently in the midst of its sixth pandemic wave, which PHO said is being driven by the more transmissible BA.2 Omicron sub-variant. The agency noted that evidence suggests high viral load may play a role in increased transmissibility of the sub-variant
> 
> “Confirmed case counts and the test positivity rates are increasing and currently higher than during the pandemic to date and indicative of Ontario being on the upswing of a sixth pandemic wave,” PHO said.
> 
> Earlier this week, Dr. Peter Juni, the head of the Ontario Science Table, said wastewater data show that the province is seeing between 100,000 and 120,000 new cases each day.
> 
> Ontario has seen a 40 per cent week-over-week increase in hospitalizations. On Saturday, Ontario reported 1,188 people in hospital with COVID-19.
> 
> *In the brief, PHO also reported that the province could see an increase in COVID-19 infections among children. The agency said it could impact pediatric hospital and intensive care capacity and lead to further interruption to in-person learning.
> 
> “With expected increased infections among children associated with increased transmissibility of BA.2, removal of public health measures, and limited vaccine eligibility and two-dose coverage in children less than 12 years, the number of children with severe disease is likely to increase,” the report read.*
> 
> Reintroducing universal indoor masking in schools and other public settings and extending masking in high-risk settings could be effective at reducing transmission, PHO said.
> 
> *There have been calls to reinstate mask mandates, especially in schools, as absences among students and teachers continue to climb. Public health experts have criticized the province for ending the mandates, saying it was a mistake.*
> 
> “Prevention strategies layered onto a vaccination strategy can mitigate a surge in the current context of a more transmissible dominant variant and when case rates are higher than during much of the pandemic to date,” PHO said.
> 
> “Optimizing layers of prevention in K-12 schools, including temporary re-implementation of masking requirements indoors and improved air quality can reduce the risk of in-school transmission and related disruption for students, families and educational settings.”
> 
> PHO said public health officials should stress the importance of wearing masks to the public to blunt the sixth wave.
> 
> “Risk communication to the population regarding high levels of SARS-CoV-2 transmission and COVID-19 disease risk may also be helpful, including in the context of collective actions such as community masking,” the report read.
> 
> *However, Ontario Health Minister Christine Elliott, citing Chief Medical Officer of Health Dr. Kieran Moore, said earlier this week there is no need to reinstate mask mandates as the rise in cases was expected.*
> 
> PHO warned that there is growing evidence that a new COVID-19 variant of concern could emerge and “drastically change the course of the pandemic.”
> 
> “The emergence of the BA.2 sub-lineage when jurisdictions were experiencing the decline of the BA.1 and BA.1.1 waves underscores the need for high quality surveillance, building on past experience related to removal of public health interventions, vaccination, and preparedness for the next stages of the COVID-19 pandemic.”_


 .. it's gonna to be a pity for Ford to lose his premiership on June 2nd because his medical advsior was told to kiss his boss' axx instead of performing his own job/profession in the medical area.

It will not surprise me hospitalizations are going to shoot up by next week after yesterday's ecstatic Blue-Jays game. I guess Ford wants to see all 3,100 beds - no make that 3,500 beds (since what's an extra 400 made-up beds anyways) all used up.


----------



## TomB16

I'll bet a quart of Danny Jansen's tobacco juice would be indistinguishable from a Kingston COVID wastewater sample.


----------



## james4beach

I saw this news buried in a CBC article. There has been virtually no influenza (no flu) this year, again!

No evidence of community circulation of influenza for the entire 2021-2022 season.

Great news!


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I'll bet a quart of Danny Jansen's tobacco juice would be indistinguishable from a Kingston COVID wastewater sample.


 ... yes at a glance. Difference is wastewater has been specifically and scientifically tested for Covid.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I saw this news buried in a CBC article. There has been virtually no influenza (no flu) this year, again!
> 
> No evidence of community circulation of influenza for the entire 2021-2022 season.
> 
> Great news!


 .. wonder why? Coincidence? I think not.


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> ... update for Ontario:
> 
> Ontario's COVID-19 sixth wave linked to lifting of mask mandates: PHO
> 
> .. it's gonna to be a pity for Ford to lose his premiership on June 2nd because his medical advsior was told to kiss his boss' axx instead of performing his own job/profession in the medical area.
> 
> It will not surprise me hospitalizations are going to shoot up by next week after yesterday's ecstatic Blue-Jays game. I guess Ford wants to see all 3,100 beds - no make that 3,500 beds (since what's an extra 400 made-up beds anyways) all used up.


 ... don't take my words for it - it's now all plastered on the front page:

*'You're on your own': Criticism builds as Ontario announces fourth dose COVID-19 vaccine plans amid sixth wave*

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/ontario-covid19-vaccine-fourth-dose-masks-160345085.html

I like this MDs' comment (bolded part):




> _@SharkawyMD_





> _So many people were wrong about not needing masks during the 1st wave of this pandemic. So many are wrong about this during the 6th wave. *Common sense is a pretty damn good* *mandate.* #WearAMask_
> _7:51 AM · Apr 6, 2022_


----------



## sags

Some hospitals are now closing down their ER departments overnight for lack of doctors.

Setting up more beds is the easy part, but it isn't a solution when there is nobody to staff them.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Some hospitals are now closing down their ER departments overnight for lack of doctors.
> 
> Setting up more beds is the easy part, but it isn't a solution *when there is nobody to staff them.*


 ... not according to Elliott (who is gonna to be looking like her rhyme, an idiot) and Ford. The patients there can look after themselves just as simple as using them free RATs, pre-paid by the patients of course.


----------



## james4beach

I have a business trip to Toronto coming up and am starting to debate cancelling it.

One thing is for sure, I'm not going anywhere without a CAN95 or CAN99 on my face. Any meetings will be done with the mask on as well.


----------



## Money172375

I have a business trip to Toronto coming

One thing is for sure, I'm not going anywhere without a CAN95 or CAN99 on my face. Any meetings will be done with the mask on as well.
[/QUOTE]

you‘ll probably be the only one. I see masks about 50% in grocery stores, and not much elsewhere.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I have a business trip to Toronto coming up and am starting to debate cancelling it.
> 
> One thing is for sure, I'm not going anywhere without a CAN95 or CAN99 on my face. Any meetings will be done with the mask on as well.


 .. let me put it this way. You're alot safer coming to Toronto than going to the state of Florida (and elsewhere in the USA), followed by Alberta and Saskatchewan in Canada.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> I have a business trip to Toronto coming
> 
> One thing is for sure, I'm not going anywhere without a CAN95 or CAN99 on my face. Any meetings will be done with the mask on as well.





> you‘ll probably be the only one. I see masks about 50% in grocery stores, and not much elsewhere.


 ... well, that's a surprise where you are located (outside of TO) with at least "50%" plus in "grocery" stores. I thought anywhere outside of Toronto, Ontario would have gone maskless (ie. bare-faced) given the mandate has been lifted.

Anyhow, as mentioned in my previous posts, about 80% of the people walking Toronto streets have their masks on. And don't be surprised that restaurant servers still have their masks on as with supermarket staff. Plus bank tellers along with their personal advisors still have their masks whilst serving customers.

It's really a chance you take and for the most part, the majority of Torontonians don't want to take whatever little chance of catching Covid if they help it. Nothing to stop those who wants to either.

Also, I have posted above that the Toronto "Public Health" has just sent criticisms to the provincial government for their "mistake(s)" for lifting the mask mandate (if not the other restrictions) so early. That takes alot.

And if your client is going to make a fuss about you being masked, then I would have 2nd thoughts about doing business with them. Maybe you should check with them first / alert them about talking to them with a mask on.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> you‘ll probably be the only one. I see masks about 50% in grocery stores, and not much elsewhere.


It's like that here in BC as well. In many of the stores I'd say it's more like 25% masks.


----------



## Money172375

I think governments have decided to let things rip on purpose. Case severity is lower. Reinfections seem to be increasing. Is there any stopping this thing? Other than hoping it gets less severe?

if the 100,000 cases a day is accurate in Ontario, you’re looking at close to 3 million infected in one month. Everyone in Ontario should be exposed by summer. If the hospitals can handle the uptick, then it might be a the best solution. I understand more people will get sick, but I don’t think many, if any, have died of COVID because of lack of hospital space. On the other hand, it’s likely deaths from other factors have gone up due to space.

Beyond that, why are things so quiet on reformulated boosters? We’ve decided to stop at 2 shots for our 18 and 16 year olds. Was hoping news of a new booster would be out by now. I guess we’ll continue to wait and decide in the fall. 2 of my younger nephews both had COVID (double vaxxed). Was way less severe than their worst colds.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> I think governments have decided to let things rip on purpose. Case severity is lower. Reinfections seem to be increasing. Is there any stopping this thing? Other than hoping it gets less severe?


 ... seems to be the case of with the slogan "You're on your own now" instead of before "We're all in it altogether". If you ask me about if this thing can be stopped and with what. I say "yes, it can" but I won't say with what since it'll freak you out. 



> if the 100,000 cases a day is accurate in Ontario, you’re looking at close to 3 million infected in one month. Everyone in Ontario should be exposed by summer. If the hospitals can handle the uptick, then it might be a the best solution. I understand more people will get sick, but I don’t think many, if any, have died of COVID because of lack of hospital space. On the other hand, it’s likely deaths from other factors have gone up due to space.


 ... that's the problem. What if the hospitals can't handle it? What about the back-logs? Further backlog them? Or work them doctors, nurses / healthcare workers to death first?



> Beyond that, why are things so quiet on reformulated boosters? We’ve decided to stop at 2 shots for our 18 and 16 year olds. Was hoping news of a new booster would be out by now. I guess we’ll continue to wait and decide in the fall. 2 of my younger nephews both had COVID (double vaxxed). Was way less severe than their worst colds.


 ... that's your younger nephews' experience. How about them older folks, or what about at your age? What was their experience like when caught Covid ... after being vaxxed. Know anyone unvaxxed and felt okay after catching Covid?


----------



## Money172375

How to stop it? pretty harsh business closures, and tough limits on gatherings didn’t stop it. Slowed it? Yes, stopped it? No. 

i Know a few unvaxxed who caught it. One was pretty sick for 3 weeks, but stayed home. The others had bad “cold” symptoms. I also know some vaxxed that eneded up in hospital.

The problem I have with more restrictions is that they’ll be ignored. They won’t work again unless the deaths rise drastically. Most people don’t know anyone directly who has died, so the perceived risk is low. After 2+ years, people are willing to take the risks they deem as small.


----------



## OptsyEagle

100,000 infections per day would work out to be around 3,000,000 infections in a month, using linear math, but we need to keep in mind that infections tend to grow in a more exponential curve until something gets in its way. Since we have put aside most precautions, which I do agree is the right thing to do, the only thing that will get in its way is when herd immunity starts to slow down the spread. I don't think that will kick in for at least 30 more days, so I would expect, factoring in an increase from Easter as well, to see around 5,000,000 more infections in Ontario over the next 30 days.

Pinpointing when the curve starts to flatten is a more difficult thing to model. 5M infections added to the around 4M already experienced in Ontario should indicate that around 62% of the province will have been infected. The problem, however, is that many of those 5,000,000 infections will be reinfections of some of the same people, but I do believe we should start to see a flattening of the curve begin sometime around the end of May, maybe sooner. At that point in time daily infection rates should drop fairly quickly and if our hospitals can hold out through this current wave, which I suspect they can, the next wave in the fall, and thereafter, will be non events. The pandemic will be over.

To be clear, although the pandemic will be over, covid-19 will be with us forever. The herd immunity I talk about is just a form of herd immunity that should have the strength to reduce the transmission rate dramatically but will not have the power to stamp out this virus for good. That is unfortuneate but at least it should end the pandemic. There are no other viable options.


----------



## Beaver101

^ With your mentality which I'll regurgitate for you here:



> *pretty harsh business closures,*
> and* tough limits on gatherings *didn’t stop it. Slowed it? Yes, stopped it? No.
> ...
> *Most people don’t know anyone directly who has died, so the perceived risk is low.
> After 2+ years, people are willing to take the risks they deem as small.*


 ... so be it.

Afterall, the "cold" (like huh, what's Covid?) is still with us - it's just another version.

Just don't b1tch when you can't get the needed health services.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> ...
> 
> *To be clear, although the pandemic will be over, covid-19 will be with us forever.* The herd immunity I talk about is just a form of herd immunity that should have the strength to reduce the transmission rate dramatically but will not have the power to stamp out this virus for good. *That is unfortuneate but at least it should end the pandemic. * There are no other viable options.


 ... can you make up your mind what your conclusion is? 

The pandemic will be with us forever. Or it's gonna to end ... with your theory of herd immunity.

This is like answering a multiple choice question - with Yes and No for an answer.


----------



## OptsyEagle

@Beaver101 Covid-19 is the virus/illness. The pandemic is the effect of the virus on humanity and our response to it. They are not the same thing. 

Covid-19 will be with us forever. The pandemic should be over soon. At that time we will just have another endemic virus that we will have to live with for the rest of our lives.

I hope that helps.


----------



## james4beach

Well strictly speaking, the virus is SARS-CoV-2 and yes, it will be with us for a long time.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to protect ourselves from it. Influenza has been with us for a long time, and it still pays off to protect ourselves from annual flu outbreaks.


----------



## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> By the way, have you heard anything about Canada's MRNA vaccine availability in the coming months?
> 
> I'm delaying getting a 3rd shot, and want to get it a few months from now. I feel like it's probably a safe idea since we're now rolling out 4th shots to seniors but I still wonder if I'm making a mistake by not grabbing the MRNA shot while it's still available.
> 
> I figure that in a worst case scenario I could drive to the US and pay for another MRNA shot there, if Canada runs out.


Are you talking about Providence? Messenger RNA (mRNA) Vaccine Therapeutics and Vaccines - Providence Therapeutics
They haven't even started trials yet.

Has something changed and you can't get a 3rd dose booster?


----------



## james4beach

bgc_fan said:


> Has something changed and you can't get a 3rd dose booster?


I'm still planning to wait until the fall to get a 3rd shot. The reason is that I don't want to get too many shots within a 12 month period... seems excessive to me, considering I'm not particularly high risk.

The boosters are clearly a good idea, that will strengthen immunity, but I don't want to take one every six months. If I got a booster now (April), then I'd have to take another one in five months (September) to get protected in time for winter.


----------



## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> I'm still planning to wait until the fall to get a 3rd shot. The reason is that I don't want to get too many shots within a 12 month period... seems excessive to me, considering I'm not particularly high risk.
> 
> The boosters are clearly a good idea, that will strengthen immunity, but I don't want to take one every six months. If I got a booster now (April), then I'd have to take another one in five months (September) to get protected in time for winter.


Just personal opinion, even though I got my 3rd shot, I'd say the full 2 shot regiment is good for most people. Obviously, those at high risk should definitely have the booster. The strengthening immunity is true; however, it is a temporary boost as your immune system reacts to the vaccine and gets the antibodies going. But that disappears after a few months. But it's not as bad as all that as your T-cells will still remember, it just takes a little more time to activate.


----------



## james4beach

bgc_fan said:


> Just personal opinion, even though I got my 3rd shot, I'd say the full 2 shot regiment is good for most people. Obviously, those at high risk should definitely have the booster. The strengthening immunity is true; however, it is a temporary boost as your immune system reacts to the vaccine and gets the antibodies going. But that disappears after a few months. But it's not as bad as all that as your T-cells will still remember, it just takes a little more time to activate.


I agree with you there. I don't feel like I'm in danger with the 2 shot regimen. But I still would like to get a booster shot before winter for a bit of added protection.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> @Beaver101 Covid-19 is the virus/illness. The pandemic is the effect of the virus on humanity and our response to it. They are not the same thing.
> 
> Covid-19 will be with us forever. The pandemic should be over soon.


 ... of course, it's not the same thing but you're talking about Covid19 as the current cause of the pandemic being with us forever and yet gonna to disappear at the same time with the pandemic being over. Why don't you just say the virus will remain with us forever just like any other when the pandemic will then be over aka stopped. 



> At that time we will just have another endemic virus that we will have to live with for the rest of our lives.


 ... and how do you know we just have now "another" "endemic" virus and not another 'pandemic' virus? Or are you postulating (aka hoping) that Covid19 will turn endemic and so we can live with it for the rest of our lives? In which case, look at the annual flu, ain't that an endemic? Which means you're equating Covid19 as merely as the "flu", no?



> I hope that helps.


 ... no, it doesn't. You're obfuscating or bluntly putting here -trying to downplay the seriousness of Covid19. The pandemic with Covid19 ain't over. And no one is stopping you from catching it and no one is not moving on with their lives as you presume.


----------



## Beaver101

This could go to the Politics thread but it's Covid19 related so here it is.

Private schools, large firms won big in Ontario’s rapid testing program, while hot spots lost out, Star analysis finds

It's behind a paywall but following is an excerpt:



> By Sara Mojtehedzadeh, Rachel Mendleson, Andrew Bailey, Toronto Star, Sun., April 10, 2022
> 
> _When Ontario launched its rapid testing program in the fall of 2020, Premier Doug Ford touted the swabs as "game changers" in the pandemic battle. As infections ripped through front-line workers in hard-hit areas like Brampton and Toronto's northwest corner, the province hailed the initiative as a vital tool to stem the tide.
> 
> Over the next 10 months, however, *just one-fifth of the 20.7 million taxpayer-funded COVID-19 rapid tests distributed through the program went to hot spot neighbourhoods, according to provincial data obtained by the Star and never before seen by the public. *
> 
> And while the province got rapid tests to some crowded workplaces and areas of high transmission at this crucial time when vaccines were only just rolling out, the internal data shows that *only a fraction of the tests went to communities the province designated internally as "high priority."*
> 
> Meanwhile, the *government gave private schools almost 175,000 free rapid tests - more than went to paramedics, daycares, shelters and jails combined, a Star analysis of the data reveals*. The pipeline to private schools was *not being closely monitored by the Education Ministry,* which was still advising that the tests were not necessary for public school students on the recommendation of Ontario's chief medical officer of health.
> 
> *The records reveal the province's strategy failed to prioritize the most vulnerable while benefiting those with resources, knowledge or connections.*
> 
> The province left it up to individual organizations to access a vital public health tool, foreshadowing the free-for-all scramble that extended beyond workplaces and engulfed all Ontarians when Omicron hit in late 2021.
> 
> "This is a lack of co-ordination that results from a retreat from responsibility," said Prachi Srivastava, a Western University professor whose research has underscored the disproportionate impact of COVID on schools in marginalized neighbourhoods.
> 
> "When it's 'first-come, first-served,' *usually the organizations that come first are the ones that are better networked ... it's not going to be uniformly distributed." *
> 
> With COVID surging again, rapid tests are now the only tool for most people to identify cases. _*But today, complaints about inequitable access persist. ... *


 ... your (Ontarians) tax dollars hard at work ... for the wastage, never mind about fairness.


----------



## Beaver101

Opinion | Maskless people living in a dream world, as cases climb once again

Guess I'm not the only way seeing the same thing and think Covid19 is no longer a concern nor a priority.


----------



## Beaver101

'Infection doesn't protect you': Getting COVID twice is more common as immunity wanes



> _Mickey Djuric, The Canadian Press, Monday, April 11, 2022
> 
> REGINA -- Christine Enns said she was shocked when a rapid test showed she had tested positive for COVID-19.
> 
> Enns, who received two doses of COVID-19 vaccine and a booster shot, already had the virus in early February and thought reinfection was rare.
> 
> “I started feeling sick three to four days ago thinking, 'This feels like COVID.' I took five tests and ...today it came back positive,” the bakery owner said Friday from her home in Warren, Mba., about 45 kilometres north of Winnipeg.
> 
> “It did come as a surprise to me because of all the things I put in place to not get it. Now that I had it twice, I don't feel quite as invincible.”
> 
> Reinfection of COVID-19 was considered unusual, but then the Omicron variant arrived.
> 
> “Because Omicron is so different, previous infection doesn't protect you,” Saskatchewan's chief medical health officer, Dr. Saqib Shahab, said last week.
> 
> He said public health data suggests up to 10 per cent ofinfected Canadians who have recently had BA.2 - a sub-variant of Omicron - previously had BA.1 or a previous infection, like the Delta variant.
> 
> This aligns with recent studies done in England that suggest 10 per cent of reported cases are reinfections.
> 
> “That shows just because you got Omicron once doesn't mean you're bulletproof now,” Shahab said.
> ...
> 
> Despite getting COVID-19 twice, Enns said she will get a second booster if she becomes eligible.
> 
> “I feel if I didn't have the vaccinations, I'd definitely be in the hospital,” said Enns, who is considered at-risk because she has Type 2 diabetes and asthma.
> 
> Enns recalled knowing an unvaccinated person who died alone in hospital due to COVID-19, calling the experience “awful.”
> 
> “You think, 'That could be me.' But I'm not. I'm at home and sick, but I'll live.”_


 ... not going into the reinfections rates stats and et al. But to comment on so much for the "theory" of herd immunity (even after being vaxxed!).


----------



## andrewf

Money172375 said:


> I think governments have decided to let things rip on purpose. Case severity is lower. Reinfections seem to be increasing. Is there any stopping this thing? Other than hoping it gets less severe?
> 
> if the 100,000 cases a day is accurate in Ontario, you’re looking at close to 3 million infected in one month. Everyone in Ontario should be exposed by summer. If the hospitals can handle the uptick, then it might be a the best solution. I understand more people will get sick, but I don’t think many, if any, have died of COVID because of lack of hospital space. On the other hand, it’s likely deaths from other factors have gone up due to space.
> 
> Beyond that, why are things so quiet on reformulated boosters? We’ve decided to stop at 2 shots for our 18 and 16 year olds. Was hoping news of a new booster would be out by now. I guess we’ll continue to wait and decide in the fall. 2 of my younger nephews both had COVID (double vaxxed). Was way less severe than their worst colds.


Hospitalizations rose by 40% week over week.


----------



## andrewf

With the rate of reinfection being so high, I think we may be looking at the unfortunate scenario of having another seasonal illness with similar disease burden as influenza. Basically doubling the burden of seasonal respiratory disease on the health care system. Influenza has been more or less knocked out for two seasons due to highly effective social distancing measures but it will return in force next year, along with the ongoing COVID-19 infection burden. We're going to need to invest in additional health care capacity to manage this.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I agree with the increased burden for the hospitals for a while at least. By while I mean more then a year, probably two, but difficult to say at this time. After the next winter we will know more about that.

If I had to hazard a guess as to the highest risk our hospitals will face with this current wave it will be the reduction in staff caused by their infections with this current covid wave, more then the demand of their services that will be caused by too many people getting sick.

In either case, I suspect it will be over before we can really do much about it so it will be interesting to see how it all turns out. As I said before, there really are no other viable options. Some things that might spread out the problem a little but even those would be difficult to make work at this stage. I don't think re-masking can hold this current wave back, considering the very high level of active community cases we have now and Easter coming at the end of this week. I believe we have reached to point of no return.


----------



## sags

Herd immunity doesn't work for second infections, and likely won't work for 3rd, 4th, 5th infections either.

When the virus mutates, it does so to avoid the vaccines and immunity from previous infections. That is why people are being re-infected.

The only solution is a better vaccine, that can be administered orally or by nasal spray. They are being developed, but it will take more time.

In the meantime, we need to have "common sense" restrictions re-applied and continue until the new vaccines become available.


----------



## sags

Despite massive lock downs, the situation in China continues to get worse.

Imagine the scenario if they had no lockdowns ? They would return to having people dying in the parking lots of hospitals.

We should never underestimate the determination of this virus.


----------



## andrewf

I kind of agree that restrictions likely won't help. But that is not motivated by optimism. It's a pessimistic view that the new normal is going to be worse than the pre-pandemic normal. I'm not sure the pandemic will be 'over' in the sense that COVID-19 will no longer be a significant disease burden. It has no evolved to the point where it is highly infectious, and humans don't develop lasting immunity to it. Our only hope is that it evolves to be harmless but there is not much reason to be particularly optimistic about that.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> Despite massive lock downs, the situation in China continues to get worse.
> 
> Imagine the scenario if they had no lockdowns ? They would return to having people dying in the parking lots of hospitals.
> 
> We should never underestimate the determination of this virus.


China made the serious error of not vaccinating heavily during their COVID-zero strategy. Eventually the dam was going to burst.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> I saw this news buried in a CBC article. There has been virtually no influenza (no flu) this year, again!
> 
> No evidence of community circulation of influenza for the entire 2021-2022 season.
> 
> Great news!


If the flu is being counted as Covid there will be no flu cases. Or the flu has magically disappeared.


----------



## doctrine

sags said:


> Despite massive lock downs, the situation in China continues to get worse.
> 
> Imagine the scenario if they had no lockdowns ? They would return to having people dying in the parking lots of hospitals.
> 
> We should never underestimate the determination of this virus.


90% of China is vaccinated. Europe is smack full of COVID - places like England are seeing up to 10% of their entire population infected...per week. And the only place people are dying in parking lots is where the Russians are dropping bombs.

China has lost the zero covid war. And if China has lost that war, then you truly know it is impossible to stop. But also pointless. COVID deaths worldwide are as lower than they've been since the very beginning, by a big margin, and still dropping.


----------



## bgc_fan

andrewf said:


> China made the serious error of not vaccinating heavily during their COVID-zero strategy. Eventually the dam was going to burst.


They do have a fairly high vaccination rate, but their elderly population didn't have a high compliance rate and their vaccine effectiveness is pretty bad.


----------



## Beaver101

WHO says it is analyzing two new Omicron COVID sub-variants

New sisters (and why does it always have to the female sex?) arrival to the world, BA.4 and BA.5! I didn't even know BA.3 existed.

Hopefully, none of these will be at our doorsteps. Doubt it with our mouths wide open.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> With the rate of reinfection being so high, I think we may be looking at the unfortunate scenario of having another seasonal illness with similar disease burden as influenza. Basically doubling the burden of seasonal respiratory disease on the health care system. Influenza has been more or less knocked out for two seasons due to highly effective social distancing measures but it will return in force next year, along with the ongoing COVID-19 infection burden. *We're going to need to invest in additional health care capacity to manage this.*


 ... is this a new idea?


----------



## Beaver101

Here is a look at who is eligible for expanded PCR testing, COVID-19 treatments in Ontario

Wow, it took this "medical" expert a whole month to figure this out. Only after another infection wave has kicked in ... talk about being reactive than proactive competency ... after 2+ years!!!!


----------



## Beaver101

Mandatory masking for high-risk settings could remain in place past April 27, Ontario's top health official says



> _Chris Fox, Monday, April 11, 2022
> 
> Ontario’s top public health official says that he will recommend that the mask mandate that remains in effect for some high-risk settings be extended until at least next month amid a worsening sixth wave of the pandemic.
> 
> ...
> 
> The Ford government lifted mask mandates for most settings on March 21 but since then there has been an exponential rise in COVID-19 transmission, with the head of the province’s science table telling CP24 last week that he now believes that Ontario could be seeing 100,000 to 120,000 new cases each day.
> 
> In a report released on Friday, Public Health Ontario said that the resurgence in viral activity is, at least, partly linked to the lifting of mask mandates and suggested that reinstituting masking at a “population level” could be “effective at reducing transmission, while enabling community settings and activities to continue functioning.”
> 
> Moore, however, said during his briefing that he is not planning to recommend the return of a broad-based mandatory masking policy, at least for now.
> 
> *He said it is his “strong recommendation” that Ontarians wear masks in indoor public settings given the rise in transmission, even if they are not legally required to. *_
> 
> *“While we will not be reinstating a broad mask mandate at this time, we should all be prepared that we may need to resume a requirement for mask wearing in indoor public spaces if a new variant of concern emerges, if there is a threat to our healthcare system or potentially during the winter months when COVID-19 and other respiratory viruses are likely to circulate again,” he said.*


 ... hmmmm, hummm, hoooo, tweedle-dum-dee ... yes or no? Sounds like a IDK, let me think about it some more. Best way to not admit on a mistake made.


----------



## andrewf

HappilyRetired said:


> If the flu is being counted as Covid there will be no flu cases. Or the flu has magically disappeared.


Or social distancing stopped the spread of flu?


----------



## HappilyRetired

andrewf said:


> Or social distancing stopped the spread of flu?


If everyone actually practiced proper social distancing then that would be a possibility. But they didn't.

Have you already forgotten about all the supposed super spreader events?


----------



## andrewf

HappilyRetired said:


> If everyone actually practiced proper social distancing then that would be a possibility. But they didn't.
> 
> Have you already forgotten about all the supposed super spreader events?


Flu does not spread nearly as easily as COVID-19. Flu has an r0 of 1-2, while original COVID strain was 2-3. Delta was closer to 5 and omicron nearly 20. That's measles territory. So it stands to reason that flu can be quashed by measures that merely slow down omicron.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Flu does not spread nearly as easily as COVID-19. Flu has an r0 of 1-2, while original COVID strain was 2-3. Delta was closer to 5 and omicron nearly 20. That's measles territory. So it stands to reason that flu can be quashed by measures that merely slow down omicron.


Heck a few masks and a bit more hand sanitizer, could have been enough to stop the flu.


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> Heck a few masks and a bit more hand sanitizer, could have been enough to stop the flu.


That is kind of the point and not some conspiracy that flu cases are counted as covid. If we had masking and basic hygiene during peak flu seasons in the past, I am sure we would have seen significant reductions in case counts.
Of course, considering people don't even bother washing their hands after using the toilets, is it any wonder we have hygiene issues? You'd think that after 2 years+ of covid people would take at least some basic hygiene measures.


----------



## james4beach

Exactly, the message here is that better public hygiene has stopped the flu.

Staying home when you're sick, wearing masks, keeping your hands clean, avoiding crowded gatherings.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Well, you can believe that the flu has been completely eradicated...and you complain on a regular basis that people aren't social distancing.

It's far more likely that flu cases are being counted as Covid.


----------



## andrewf

HappilyRetired said:


> Well, you can believe that the flu has been completely eradicated...and you complain on a regular basis that people aren't social distancing.
> 
> It's far more likely that flu cases are being counted as Covid.


This is basically tin-foil hat territory. Are you suggesting that health authorities are incompetent in the same way world-wide or are colluding in a massive conspiracy to hide flu cases?


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> Well, you can believe that the flu has been completely eradicated...and you complain on a regular basis that people aren't social distancing.


Again, the flu isn't nearly as contagious, it only takes a small amount of preventative measures to stop it. What might be enough to stop the flu isn't enough to stop Omicron.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Again, the flu isn't nearly as contagious, it only takes a small amount of preventative measures to stop it. What might be enough to stop the flu isn't enough to stop Omicron.


Let's also not forget that these measures still slow the rate of spreading omicron.

The effort is worthwhile. This isn't a binary thing but rather about probability of spread and rate of spread.


----------



## TomB16

Shanghai is locked down until May.

Locals are complaining of severe food shortages. One local indicates the only food her family has been able to obtain in two weeks is 30 eggs. I don't know how many people in her household but, even if there are just two people, that's one egg per person per day. She is worried about starvation.

For some reason, they have stopped the use of ordering food using a smartphone. Not sure why.

Some of the locals are acutely aware that zero COVID is not going to work.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Let's also not forget that these measures still slow the rate of spreading omicron.
> 
> The effort is worthwhile. This isn't a binary thing but rather about probability of spread and rate of spread.


Some effort, I wear a mask, I wash my hands.

But I also go out, went to a movie and a restaurant. Not gonna live in a cave anymore.


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> Shanghai is locked down until May.
> 
> Some of the locals are acutely aware that zero COVID is not going to work.


The government really doesn't care what the locals know.
That's the problem with the basic dictatorships Trudeau so admires.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> But I also go out, went to a movie and a restaurant. Not gonna live in a cave anymore.


Nobody expects anyone to live in a cave. You know you should be careful, and you are being careful.

I even spent a week visiting my elderly parents. To control the risks, I wore a mask nearly all the time, kept some distance from them, kept my hands very clean and also minimized my contact with anyone else. Nobody in the house caught covid.

I also isolated myself for 2 days after I flew into their city.

Being careful doesn't mean our lives have to stop. I've been flying throughout the pandemic, I might be up to 10 flights now over the last two years. In a week, I have a business trip to Toronto.


----------



## bgc_fan

andrewf said:


> This is basically tin-foil hat territory. Are you suggesting that health authorities are incompetent in the same way world-wide or are colluding in a massive conspiracy to hide flu cases?


Short answer, is yes. I remember these are the same people who jumped all over the FDA who authorized a combination covid/flu test and they all shouted "See the current test doesn't tell the difference between covid and flu". Of course, being the idiots they are didn't understand that the current test only shows positive covid and doesn't react to the presence of flu.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Some effort, I wear a mask, I wash my hands.
> 
> But I also go out, went to a movie and a restaurant. Not gonna live in a cave anymore.


Same, I've seen movies and gone to restaurants. Dune was definitely worth seeing in theatre. I just prefer it to be less crowded, so I go on off-peak days.


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> Shanghai is locked down until May.
> 
> Locals are complaining of severe food shortages. One local indicates the only food her family has been able to obtain in two weeks is 30 eggs. I don't know how many people in her household but, even if there are just two people, that's one egg per person per day. She is worried about starvation.
> 
> For some reason, they have stopped the use of ordering food using a smartphone. Not sure why.
> 
> Some of the locals are acutely aware that zero COVID is not going to work.


It's just insanity to bring citizens to the brink of starvation to contain COVID. We know COVID is manageable. Certainly more dangerous to let a city of 25M starve. We were never near that risk in Mar 2020 when the store shelves got cleared out but people reasonably panicked about food availability.


----------



## Beaver101

^ How long can a person go without food (not water)? 21 days max? Don't forget Shanghai is a "major" city and city slickers ain't exactly skinny in the first place, let alone being in the city of Shanghai.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> It's just insanity to bring citizens to the brink of starvation to contain COVID. We know COVID is manageable. Certainly more dangerous to let a city of 25M starve. We were never near that risk in Mar 2020 when the store shelves got cleared out but people reasonably panicked about food availability.


Yeah, but that's here, we have very robust supply chains, the rest of the world isn't like that.


----------



## james4beach

Scott Gottlieb comments on the boosters coming up. He says someone who's vulnerable should get a booster now. You will probably get another booster in the fall.

Status of the new omicron-specific vaccines: *Gottlieb says initial data from Pfizer is expected in April & May. *Trial results should be coming pretty soon.


----------



## MrMatt

Well I'm hearing that hospitals are getting staffing shortages and there are more treatment delays.
I really wish they at least kept the masking requirements

Link added>








COVID-19 staffing shortages at London Health Sciences Centre could lead to service reductions - London | Globalnews.ca


As of Monday, LHSC reported that 288 staff and physicians were off with COVID-19, and more were off because they are a close contact with the virus.




globalnews.ca





I think that the 6th wave is being ignored because we're tired of this crap. 
That's why I think only the most convenient measures should be maintained (masking/lots of santizer/handwashing)


----------



## Beaver101

Ontario’s Chief Medical Officer warns sixth COVID-19 wave could put 600 people in ICUs

*Ontario’s Chief Medical Officer warns sixth COVID-19 wave could put 600 people in ICUs*

Above link is behind a paywall and title doesn't say much about what's in the article other than above bolded heading (a mismatch). So I'm not sure what's the point of Ontario's CMO in making that announcement other than to show his face to prove he's working - for a month somewhere in the Carribbeans.

I wonder what his peers in the medical field really thinks of him other than than the rest of us of him being Ford's lapdog (a real one).


----------



## OptsyEagle

So I have a question that I am struggling with right now. Perhaps a few others have given it some thought as well. How do you measure efficacy of a vaccine when the "placebo" group, what was previously the unvaccinated group, have possibly obtained some level of community viral exposure. In other words, they most likely have some percentage of them with some level of previous infection providing the placebo group with much more protection then what they had in the original trials.

So in current vaccines, back in early 2020, the drug companies simply measured the number of infections by the vaccinated group, compared them against the number of infections in the placebo group, and ended up with numbers in the 90% plus efficacy range. I can't see that working quite as well anymore. First, finding that many unvaccinated people willing to take the trial (in other words possibly get vaccinated) would be difficult. But even if they do, they would need to test everyone for some previous infection, and even if they do that, hope that in a world of Omicron, the placebo group does not get some kind of asymptomatic exposure during the trial that makes the vaccine numbers not look as good in comparison when the results are tabulated.

The reason I ask is it is getting difficult these days to actually know how protected one currently is with the vaccines, no matter how many doses you have had. How much they wane is still mainly measured against the unvaccinated OR 3 dose against 2 dose. etc. If all things stayed the same that would work, but with Omicron infecting millions every day, nothing is staying the same. In other words, when one says a vaccine is waning, perhaps it is not waning. Perhaps what they are seeing is the unvaccinated getting more protected by exposure, and misinterpreting that as a waning of efficacy of the vaccine.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Your theory of herd/natural immunity is skewed. The deads can't talk about their experience. The obvious answer of the efficiary of the vaccines is by looking at the # of deads versus the # alive when the vaccines became available - during the Delta phase.

And now with the virus constantly mutating, the vaccine(s) can't keep up with being twerked to tackle those variants, hence the continuous hospitalisations but less deaths. Isn't this just plain logic instead of mind twisting?


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> So I have a question that I am struggling with right now. Perhaps a few others have given it some thought as well. How do you measure efficacy of a vaccine when the "placebo" group, what was previously the unvaccinated group, have possibly obtained some level of community viral exposure. In other words, they most likely have some percentage of them with some level of previous infection providing the placebo group with much more protection then what they had in the original trials.
> 
> So in current vaccines, back in early 2020, the drug companies simply measured the number of infections by the vaccinated group, compared them against the number of infections in the placebo group, and ended up with numbers in the 90% plus efficacy range. I can't see that working quite as well anymore. First, finding that many unvaccinated people willing to take the trial (in other words possibly get vaccinated) would be difficult. But even if they do, they would need to test everyone for some previous infection, and even if they do that, hope that in a world of Omicron, the placebo group does not get some kind of asymptomatic exposure during the trial that makes the vaccine numbers not look as good in comparison when the results are tabulated.
> 
> The reason I ask is it is getting difficult these days to actually know how protected one currently is with the vaccines, no matter how many doses you have had. How much they wane is still mainly measured against the unvaccinated OR 3 dose against 2 dose. etc. If all things stayed the same that would work, but with Omicron infecting millions every day, nothing is staying the same. In other words, when one says a vaccine is waning, perhaps it is not waning. Perhaps what they are seeing is the unvaccinated getting more protected by exposure, and misinterpreting that as a waning of efficacy of the vaccine.


It's really messy, particularly since so many people are getting moderate or low/no symptom COVID.

At the end of the day, I'd look at ICU/Death rates by vaccination status to give a final judgement.

However if you want more data, the Ontario Dashboard is pretty good.








Ontario Dashboard - Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table


NOTICE: This website is no longer updated.If you have questions about previously published Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table resources, please email [email protected] Current Status in Ontario Contents Current Status in Ontario Current COVID-19 Risk in Ontario by Vaccination Status...




covid19-sciencetable.ca





You can see the protection offered by vaccination, however the question of impact of exposure is still open. If you assume both groups had equal vaccine exposure then it's a non issue. 
You might see this as a lessening effectiveness, and we see that for getting COVID, but we still see a high level of Hospital/ICU protection, suggesting that the vaccine is still vastly superior to the exposure based protection.

I'm not sure if anyone is looking at COVID rates by timing of third dose, but they were doing this for the first round of injections, so I assume someone is.

If you assume differential COVID exposure between vaccinated and unvaccinated, due to different behaviours and social groupings (which makes sense) you can skew the data either way, my _feeling_ is that unvaccinated people likely took fewer precautions, because they aren't too scared of COVID, but some portion of vaccinated people also took fewer protections because they were "protected".

But based on the data the vaccine still helps keep you from hospitalization and dying, but is doing very little to stop spread, this might be the variants or the natural weaking of the vaccine effects, or the comparison to the control group. 

Look at the wastewater data, it's everywhere.

For myself, I'm mixed on the 4th dose, leaning no at this time
FYI, I'm also one of those who got the later AZ vaccines for my first shot when they had the controversy that led to it being pulled. While I'm VERY pro vax, I'm not sure boosters every few months is appropriate.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Sure, but that data from the Science Table compares the fully vaccinated to the unvaccinated. When we see the curves waning down we still cannot be sure whether it is caused by the waning of protection of the vaccinated OR improving protection obtained by the unvaccinated, or a combination of both, which is almost for sure the case to some degree.

I know they present it as a measure of the vaccines current efficacy, but that cannot be the case anymore. My guess is that both is happening, waning of the vaccinated protection and improvement to the unvaccinated, causing the difference in protections to fall closer to zero...but it would be nice to know how much is the actual situation.

We cannot even negate community exposure with the idea that both groups, vaccinated and unvaccinated are being exposed equally because we know that most of the protection happens on the first exposure and any future exposures do not provide the same boost of protection, as that first one did. In other words community exposure gives more benefit to the unvaccinated then it does to the vaccinated.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Well I'm hearing that hospitals are getting staffing shortages and there are more treatment delays.
> I really wish they at least kept the masking requirements
> 
> Link added>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 staffing shortages at London Health Sciences Centre could lead to service reductions - London | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> As of Monday, LHSC reported that 288 staff and physicians were off with COVID-19, and more were off because they are a close contact with the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that the 6th wave is being ignored because we're tired of this crap.
> That's why I think only the most convenient measures should be maintained (masking/lots of santizer/handwashing)


Masking is such a minor inconvenience and if it could have softened this wave, I think it would have been worthwhile. We're seeing a lot of infections at work. We can work remotely and mostly not getting too sick but in roles where you can't work remotely this has got to be very disruptive.


----------



## TomB16

This is a graph of wastewater testing overlaid on top of clinical cases. This shows wastewater testing leads case statistics, a little bit. It also shows wastewater testing is reasonably representative.

As James has indicated, wastwater testing is the sheet.





  








Screenshot_20220412_081235.png




__
TomB16


__
9 mo ago


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> How do you measure efficacy of a vaccine when the "placebo" group, what was previously the unvaccinated group, have possibly obtained some level of community viral exposure.


More important is that both groups have the same potential exposure history and reflects the state of the general public. Larger group sizes help to make this equal but there might be additional screening as well.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> More important is that both groups have the same potential exposure history and reflects the state of the general public. Larger group sizes help to make this equal but there might be additional screening as well.


Agreed. I do think that when all the groups are averaged most are probably getting similar degrees of exposure. The problem, however, is as I stated above, a similar infection to an unvaccinated person will give a much larger boost to the protection of that person then the same infection will give the fully vaccinated person. We know this because with the vaccine trials the 1st dose/exposure tended to provide between 65% to 75% efficacy and the second dose/exposure only improved it by another 20% or so. That can have the power to skew the numbers considerably when the unvaccinated start to get any exposure.

The reason I bring this up is all we hear these days is, "look the vaccine is waning again, this group or everyone should line up for another dose"...and everyone just does. As I have said, I don't think anyone really knows what the degree of wane actually is. We know the antibodies decline but we also know that another dose won't allow you to keep them, so I would think that a person would want to know what another dose actually does for them and for how long...before they take it. The idea that at least we know it can't hurt is another point that we actually don't really know either.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> The reason I bring this up is all we hear these days is, "look the vaccine is waning again, this group or everyone should line up for another dose"...and everyone just does. As I have said, I don't think anyone really knows what the degree of wane actually is. We know the antibodies decline but we also know that another dose won't allow you to keep them, so I would think that a person would want to know what another dose actually does for them and for how long...before they take it. The idea that at least we know it can't hurt is another point that we actually don't really know either.


I wouldn't say everyone just lines up for another dose, most I know in the older age group have not gone for a third shot.

There is also many levels of decline. The key ones being, initial ward off of any infection and prevent serious outcomes with the latter being much more important IMO.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> I wouldn't say everyone just lines up for another dose, most I know in the older age group have not gone for a third shot.
> 
> There is also many levels of decline. The key ones being, initial ward off of any infection and prevent serious outcomes with the latter being much more important IMO.


Agreed again, but I will point out that the majority of people lined up for another dose, when told to do so.

It will be interesting to see what Pfizer and Moderna come up with for numbers on their new Omicron vaccine. They are obviously going to be directly faced with the problem I have pointed out. They may just attempt to convince us using the system they used for the kid's vaccine. That is where they basically did not trial it at all and said, "look, we are getting a good antibody response from serological data in the lab and no one died when we poked them, so go get your kids and get them all vaccinated".

That might work for most people but it won't get me in the line for it. The problem with antibodies is not only do they not last, but they seem to wane quicker and quicker after every consecutive dose. I think with the 4th dose they are seeing the wane start in about 6 weeks. The 3rd was about 10 weeks and I think the 2nd was around 4 to 6 months. That also makes me wonder "why" is that happening, which of course no one seems to know or be concerned with. If it wanes, poke em again, seems to be the going strategy.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> I wouldn't say everyone just lines up for another dose, most I know in the older age group have not gone for a third shot.
> 
> There is also many levels of decline. The key ones being, initial ward off of any infection and prevent serious outcomes with the latter being much more important IMO.


I'd suggest that the current vaccine is pretty much ineffective at preventing initial infection and spread. Virtually every household with one case, they ALL get it.
I do think it reduces severity.

Again I support masking, not to stop COVID, just to level off some of these peaks. People are being denied medical treatment, we should be doing at least a little to manage this.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Agreed again, but I will point out that the majority of people lined up for another dose, when told to do so.


Barely the majority, 48% (3 dose) vs 82% (2 dose).



OptsyEagle said:


> It will be interesting to see what Pfizer and Moderna come up with for numbers on their new Omicron vaccine. They are obviously going to be directly faced with the problem I have pointed out.


I'm waiting on those results as well to see if I'll get a "new" booster.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> I'd suggest that the current vaccine is pretty much ineffective at preventing initial infection and spread. Virtually every household with one case, they ALL get it.
> I do think it reduces severity.


Stopping infection would be great but I'll gladly take the shot if it keeps me from getting seriously ill if it's all we got.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Stopping infection would be great but I'll gladly take the shot if it keeps me from getting seriously ill if it's all we got.


Precisely, but with the current vaccines we know they prevent serious illness, but what we don't know is for how long? We have many publications and studies on this but most miss the point that I am alluding to which is that they have little choice but to compare it to the unvaccinated to derive their conclusions. The unvaccinated, unfortuneately, are not a constant that can be used for that anymore, nor are the vaccinated for that matter. If you had two doses and the last was 10 months ago you are probably not as protected as someone your age who had 2 doses but the last shot was only 1 month ago.

This is not an easy question to answer but it is a vitally important one. For example, is that person who had their last dose 10 months ago protected from severe illness or not and how protected are they? I attest that no one really knows. There is anecdotal evidence, but that usually leaves more questions then answers, then the efficacy studies that are coming out do.

It would just be nice to know if I needed anymore protection before I was asked to take another shot because someone else never even thought of the point that I am making and feels like it is a good idea because it appears everyone else is doing it as well.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> It would just be nice to know if I needed anymore protection before I was asked to take another shot because someone else never even thought of the point that I am making and feels like it is a good idea because it appears everyone else is doing it as well.


Yes it would be nice to have supporting data but I think it really comes down to your own personal risk factors. If your risks are higher ...

age group related to serious illness
exposed to the general public on a regular basis (especially in closed in areas)
exposed to many friends on a regular basis, more so if they have a large number of public contacts.
etc, etc
Also would depend on previous vaccine reactions, if any were observed, and how bad they were.

Just jumping in with the "herd" to get a booster may not be right for you but it's your own judgement call if you feel a booster is warranted.


----------



## sags

If people are really interested in the facts, that the Provincial government is no longer gathering, this is the expert analysis group many experts are following.

It is a data group headed by Associate Professor Tara Moriarty and called the Moriarty Lab.

According to her calculations, we have only just begun the early stages of this wave and it is going to get much worse, most notably for older people.

The number of hospitalizations, ICU patients, and number of deaths is going to rise precipitously, and continue for many more months.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513650646691549184


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> It would just be nice to know if I needed anymore protection before I was asked to take another shot because someone else never even thought of the point that I am making and feels like it is a good idea because it appears everyone else is doing it as well.


Yes, but you can't get that data.

We have pretty good data from 1-3 months ago. (For people to get and exit COVID). But that situation was different than today.
I think that's a pretty good guidance what you should do today.

Based on that it looks like the vaccine gives at least 80% hospitalization/ICU for a few months, if this isn't good enough for you, maybe you want another booster.
The second question is how well do 4th shots work, and for how long? We won't know until the first 4th shot people start getting hospitalized and dying at the time you're interested in.

If you're looking for 4 month effectivity, you'll likely need to wait 6 or so months from when they start that initiative you're wondering about.
I think you need to appreciate that without time travel all the data is hints to what the situation is if you were to make a decision today, but that's okay, I think the data is clear enough to make a reasonable guess.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> If people are really interested in the facts, that the Provincial government is no longer gathering, this is the expert analysis group many experts are following.
> 
> It is a data group headed by Associate Professor Tara Moriarty and called the Moriarty Lab.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513650646691549184


What facts that what provincial government is no longer gathering?

A quick review shows Ontario is publishing much of the data they tweeted about, I've already linked to it in this thread.


----------



## sags

You would have to ask her what is missing from Ontario's published data. This is one of her tweets.

_Please join if you'd like to help finalize how to weight COVID community risk factors to *generate a single output--like the traffic light metric some provinces used to provide. And should be still. It's ridiculous for volunteers to do this because those who should aren't.* _


----------



## sags

Ontario is ignoring all the expert advice they are being given. All the decisions by the Ford government are politically motivated.

_I'd like to remind everyone that the Science Table, Public Health Ontario, several MOH's, myself, and many others recommended the return of mask mandates. Dr. Moore rejected all that advice today. _


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513585564301369346


----------



## OptsyEagle

Sure. I understand the world I live in and if the data is partially corrupted and that cannot be rectified then a best theoretical guess is perhaps the best we can have. I just thought I would ask in case someone had some useful thoughts as to another way of looking at it where perhaps they combine data from a few sources, do some calculations and are then able to derive a more informative conclusion.

I have a few other ways of dealing with it but nothing that is not currently giving a fairly noisy conclusion.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> I have a few other ways of dealing with it but nothing that is not currently giving a fairly noisy conclusion.


I don't think you'll find a calculation approach that is worthwhile. Even the source data has too much noise with the potential exception of clinical trials. It's going to be a best guess situation IMO.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> You would have to ask her what is missing from Ontario's published data. This is one of her tweets.
> 
> _Please join if you'd like to help finalize how to weight COVID community risk factors to *generate a single output--like the traffic light metric some provinces used to provide. And should be still. It's ridiculous for volunteers to do this because those who should aren't.* _


You're posting the claim here, so I'm asking you.

I'd point out that the bolded statement isn't even claiming that any data or fact is not being shared.

What they are not sharing is an analysis that they're no longer doing, remember some people (I believe including you) have claimed that the regional approach to COVID was the wrong approach. Ontario has mostly ended the regional approach, therefore the related regional data isn't there.

That being said for regional data they do have (ie wastewater, hospitalization etc) that's all being shared.

Making false and unsupported claims about what the provinces are or are not doing isn't adding to the discussion.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Ontario is ignoring all the expert advice they are being given. All the decisions by the Ford government are politically motivated.
> 
> _I'd like to remind everyone that the Science Table, Public Health Ontario, several MOH's, myself, and many others recommended the return of mask mandates. Dr. Moore rejected all that advice today. _
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513585564301369346


Okay, you're clearly bordering on politically motivated COVID disinformation.

Dr Moore is the top public health expert, if he is giving different advice, clearly the Ontario government isn't ignoring all the expert advice.

I think dropping the mask mandate was wrong, and I think it was politically motivated. But I do believe that some experts, like our CMO seem to think it is appropriate. 
Clearly Ford isn't ignoring _ALL_ expert advice if different experts are giving different opinions.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> You would have to ask her what is missing from Ontario's published data. This is one of her tweets.
> 
> _Please join if you'd like to help finalize how to weight COVID community risk factors to *generate a single output--like the traffic light metric some provinces used to provide. And should be still. It's ridiculous for volunteers to do this because those who should aren't.* _


 ... would look further into the Moriarity Lab. And I 110% agree with that last sentence.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Okay, you're clearly bordering on politically motivated COVID disinformation.
> 
> Dr Moore is the top public health expert, if he is giving different advice, clearly the Ontario government isn't ignoring all the expert advice.


 ... no sh1t as the province's top health officer, not expert. And really, he isn't ignoring "all" the expert advice? Absent for a month with not a beep? What, got an ear infection all of a sudden and can't hear anyone, except Ford?

Not sure what "exactly" is his "medical" "expertise" ... infectious disease? Or is the foot and mouth one?

Also, not sure about his "public health" expertise given he completely ignored Toronto's Public Health issue of criticism for lifting the mask mandate too soon (if not the other restrictions). Furthermore, he hasn't spoken for about a month (and father Ford had to fill in for him with a "duh" when we're well in a 6th wave. Some "top" "public health" expert". [I read he was vacationing in the Carribeans (not sure if was an entire month but then no excuse either), hence the absence.] More like him trying to be full-time "political" doctor, attempting to retain his "job" whatever the hell that may be now.



> I think dropping the mask mandate was wrong, and I think it was politically motivated. But I do believe that some experts, like our CMO seem to think it is appropriate.


 .. like who or which experts in the "medical" field (not political field) think it's appropriate? Elliott - the lawyer turned medical expert whilst serving Ford?



> Clearly Ford isn't ignoring _ALL_ expert advice if different experts are giving different opinions.


 .. of course, he's not. All he Ford has to say is "I'm following the CMO's advice" who in reality is following his boss' advice. The typical ping-pong or musical chairs "leadership" tactics.

*Bottomline*: Don't forget,

*Ontario taxpayers are Ford's boss *even though Ford is the CMO's boss. Which means the CMO is doing a disservice to both Ontario taxpayers and himself as a professional 'MD' also.

*Canadian taxpayers* are Trudeau's boss, not Ford's boss.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> For myself, I'm mixed on the 4th dose, leaning no at this time
> FYI, I'm also one of those who got the later AZ vaccines for my first shot when they had the controversy that led to it being pulled. While I'm VERY pro vax, I'm not sure boosters every few months is appropriate.


Interesting you bring this up MrMatt because it's similar to my views, in that I'm very pro vaccine but also have this hesitation about getting boosters every few months. It's just too frequent.

I encourage people to watch that Gottlieb segment I posted on the last page, because he makes a good point. The only reason we keep talking about frequent boosters right now is that *covid is continually circulating*, and it hasn't yet settled into the annual, seasonal pattern ... which is going to happen eventually.

This is another reason I get angry at the Canadian provinces for pulling back the restrictions and letting covid rip uncontrolled through society. This *continual* community spread is what lands us in a difficult position. The provinces are helping make this happen with their reluctance to keep protecting the public.

Some like @TomB16 are arguing to just let covid rip through society, but this is exactly why it's a bad idea. It's because the seasonal pattern has not yet settled down and established. When we let it rip through society like this, we get forced to deploy more boosters because the vulnerable and elderly are CONSTANTLY IN DANGER.

If we just keep up a bit more caution -- I'd say mandatory masks and capacity limits -- we can keep the rate of community spread low enough to give us some breathing room. Covid is absolutely coming back in the winter, with a new wave, but at least the seasonal infection pattern is something we're used to and can handle with seasonal vaccinations.

These are the reasons to keep being careful about covid, and keep some restrictions, until this becomes more seasonal / endemic.

Gottlieb's video is extremely optimistic if you watch it carefully. We're almost there, at seasonal/endemic. But we do have to prevent covid from ripping through the community (as it's doing in Ontario) until we get on that seasonal pattern. That will be normal and the pandemic will be done.


----------



## Beaver101

Okay, just back from a shopping trip and observed "recess" of 1 public high school. Only 20% of the students gathered in the field was masked. I'm guessing Covid is not an issue for these youngsters when they return home or when they visit grandpa/grandma (if they do). Amazing. No wonder the teachers are screaming their heads off.


----------



## Birder

I am having trouble reconciling the Science Table data with other data published daily by the Government of Ontario. For example, in the attached chart, it appears that those who are boosted are almost twice as likely to get covid as someone not fully vaccinated. If you really believed the theory that the vaccine wanes over time, you would expect double vaccinated to be more likely to get infected than boosted individuals - but this is not what the data shows!


----------



## MrMatt

Birder said:


> I am having trouble reconciling the Science Table data with other data published daily by the Government of Ontario. For example, in the attached chart, it appears that those who are boosted are almost twice as likely to get covid as someone not fully vaccinated. If you really believed the theory that the vaccine wanes over time, you would expect double vaccinated to be more likely to get infected than boosted individuals - but this is not what the data shows!


Yeah, there is something weird with the data there.

Look at the deaths involving COVID-19, and it looks like vaccination status might not be changing the odds.
Now this could be
1. The vaccine has no impact on the current variants
2. There are virtually no deaths outside of high risk groups (ie look at 60+) which distorts the picture.

I think it's both, the current virus isn't as lethal for most people, and the vaccine has limited effectiveness.

that being said with more cases per capita, and similar deaths per capita for those who are vaccinated, I think that it does offer some protection, but there is some other factor driving this.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> The only reason we keep talking about frequent boosters right now is that *covid is continually circulating*, and it hasn't yet settled into the annual, seasonal pattern ... which is going to happen eventually.


I dont' care about that, I care about the lethality.

Last time I was sick (pre-covid) I didn't care if it was a coronavirus, flu, rhinovirus, adenovirus, rotovirus, etc, I just knew (assumed) that it wasn't too lethal, so I didn't really think about it.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Birder said:


> I am having trouble reconciling the Science Table data with other data published daily by the Government of Ontario. For example, in the attached chart, it appears that those who are boosted are almost twice as likely to get covid as someone not fully vaccinated. If you really believed the theory that the vaccine wanes over time, you would expect double vaccinated to be more likely to get infected than boosted individuals - but this is not what the data shows!
> View attachment 23070


Yes. I have stared at that chart for quite a while. It only goes back to March 17/22 because that is when they changed it to incorporate 3 dose, 2 dose and 0 dose. Before that it was fully vac, partial vac and no vac. but illustrated the same phenomenon you are alluding to.

As you observed it does not correlate with the Science Table of Ontario and that is concerning. I would say what you are seeing is the result of either of the following:

1) Behaviour - with the graph indicating that 3 dosed people are more reckless. Since 3 dose people are usually also older with more co-morbidities, I am not quite sure this explains it.

2) Testing - with the limited testing, much of it geared towards healthcare workers, etc., one might think that 3 dose people are tested more often in Ontario, then the rest. Even though they use a "per 100,000 " to neutralize that effect if you test way more people in one group then another, you are undoubtedly going to find more positives in that group. Perhaps the Science Table adds "who is tested" to the same equation, where as the Ontario data only measures positive results divided by population, of that dose group, and that might fix it, but again, that is a guess on my part.

3) Vaccine protection might be a trade off - The more vaccine doses you take the less protection against infection you will eventually have, but perhaps that gets traded off by acquiring better protection against severe outcome. We actually know very little about the true and longer term effect of very frequent multiple vaccination.

In any case, this question is one of a few reasons why I really want to know if I need another dose, before I take another dose.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I dont' care about that, *I care about the lethality.*
> 
> Last time I was sick (pre-covid)* I didn't care if it was a coronavirus, flu, rhinovirus, adenovirus, rotovirus, etc, I just knew (assumed) that it wasn't too lethal,* so I didn't really think about it.


 ... then why do you think Covid19 has been labelled as the "pandemic" (sans the anti-vaxxers, non believers or it's just the "flu")? And why do we collect stats (mortality, infection rates, etc.) on this "pandemic"? And is the "pandemic" over?


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> 1) Behaviour - with the graph indicating that 3 dosed people are more reckless. Since 3 dose people are usually also older with more co-morbidities, I am not quite sure this explains it.


Or those are the people who are dying.


----------



## sags

Or the graph is garbage.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Or the graph is garbage.


 ... I'm sure someone who came up with that graph has an explanation - made up.


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> ... no sh1t as the province's top health officer, not expert. And really, he isn't ignoring "all" the expert advice? Absent for a month with not a beep? What, got an ear infection all of a sudden and can't hear anyone, except Ford?
> 
> Not sure what "exactly" is his "medical" "expertise" ... infectious disease? Or is the foot and mouth one?
> 
> Also, not sure about his "public health" expertise given he completely ignored Toronto's Public Health issue of criticism for lifting the mask mandate too soon (if not the other restrictions). Furthermore, he hasn't spoken for about a month (and father Ford had to fill in for him with a "duh" when we're well in a 6th wave. Some "top" "public health" expert". [I read he was vacationing in the Carribeans (not sure if was an entire month but then no excuse either), hence the absence.] More like him trying to be full-time "political" doctor, attempting to retain his "job" whatever the hell that may be now.
> 
> .. like who or which experts in the "medical" field (not political field) think it's appropriate? Elliott - the lawyer turned medical expert whilst serving Ford?
> 
> .. of course, he's not. All he Ford has to say is "I'm following the CMO's advice" who in reality is following his boss' advice. The typical ping-pong or musical chairs "leadership" tactics.
> 
> *Bottomline*: Don't forget,
> 
> *Ontario taxpayers are Ford's boss *even though Ford is the CMO's boss. Which means the CMO is doing a disservice to both Ontario taxpayers and himself as a professional 'MD' also.
> 
> *Canadian taxpayers* are Trudeau's boss, not Ford's boss.


 ... *Edit:* got it from good old wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kieran_Moore

Colourful credentials but practical experience???? Interesting that he's a "paid" advisor for Pfizer's Lyme Disease Advisory Board. Guess a pandemic is a first for him too. Still a quack serving Ford.


----------



## Birder

Beaver101 said:


> . is this the same guy? That is,
> 
> Ontario's "current" CMO is a "specialist consultant" "paediatric psychiatrist" (what a mouthful and isn't a psychiatrist a specialist already?) from southeast Ireland? If so, no wonder Ontario got a quack instead of a plain old public health official.


Sorry NOT the same guy. A simple check on CPSO or even Youtube would show that.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> Or the graph is garbage.


Ontario is not the only place that has observed this "negative efficacy" phenomenon with the vaccines. Here is a study conducted by Danish scientists from the Statens Serum Institut, published on December 23, 2021.

You can clearly see that at the 91 to 150 day time period, that the protection against infection for both Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines, against Omicron, actually went negative. Now keep in mind they would have many of the same problems to deal with that I discussed above, but I just want to point out that this phenomenon has been seen before. It is not just Ontario showing it.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v3.full.pdf


----------



## bgc_fan

Birder said:


> I am having trouble reconciling the Science Table data with other data published daily by the Government of Ontario. For example, in the attached chart, it appears that those who are boosted are almost twice as likely to get covid as someone not fully vaccinated. If you really believed the theory that the vaccine wanes over time, you would expect double vaccinated to be more likely to get infected than boosted individuals - but this is not what the data shows!
> View attachment 23070


A chart like that needs to be broken down by age to bring some meaning. Doing an aggregate doesn't help.

But looking at the age break down is interesting as there are some age groups where you see this.













































Part of the anomaly in this case can simply be the fact that we aren't actually testing everyone regularly, so you miss out on some. But I think death rates are probably a better reflection on vaccine effectiveness. Though the graphs are a little funky because of the low numbers.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Or the graph is garbage.


First you claim they're not publishing the data, but you can't identify what data they're not publishing.

Now you're accusing them of falsifying the data.


----------



## Money172375

Anybody see any updates on reformulated boosters? Still debating for my 18/16 year olds. 
I see NACI is now recommending boosters for everyone 18+.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> If people are really interested in the facts, that the Provincial government is no longer gathering, this is the expert analysis group many experts are following.
> 
> It is a data group headed by Associate Professor Tara Moriarty and called the Moriarty Lab.
> 
> According to her calculations, we have only just begun the early stages of this wave and it is going to get much worse, most notably for older people.
> 
> The number of hospitalizations, ICU patients, and number of deaths is going to rise precipitously, and continue for many more months.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513650646691549184


Why do people use twitter this way? Use twitlonger. Twitter has such an unfriendly interface for long written pieces.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Okay, you're clearly bordering on politically motivated COVID disinformation.
> 
> Dr Moore is the top public health expert, if he is giving different advice, clearly the Ontario government isn't ignoring all the expert advice.
> 
> I think dropping the mask mandate was wrong, and I think it was politically motivated. But I do believe that some experts, like our CMO seem to think it is appropriate.
> Clearly Ford isn't ignoring _ALL_ expert advice if different experts are giving different opinions.


I kind of question how apolitical Moore is. It seems Ford had at least a role in his selection, and he has been conspicuously absent from the public eye the last month or two despite the fact that COVID is still topical.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> I kind of question how apolitical Moore is. It seems Ford had at least a role in his selection, and he has been conspicuously absent from the public eye the last month or two despite the fact that COVID is still topical.


Well he just got back from the Dominican...

I doubt he's any less political than Dr Tam, but that's irrelevant.
He's the top medical expert, and they're apparently not ignoring him.

Secondly practical considerations are important, if they tried to implement harsh restrictions now they'd fail. They might have been able to get away with masking, but not much more.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Ontario is ignoring all the expert advice they are being given. All the decisions by the Ford government are politically motivated.
> 
> _I'd like to remind everyone that the Science Table, Public Health Ontario, several MOH's, myself, and many others recommended the return of mask mandates. Dr. Moore rejected all that advice today. _
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513585564301369346


I'd like everyone to know that someone disagrees with me and my friends.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Anybody see any updates on reformulated boosters? Still debating for my 18/16 year olds.
> I see NACI is now recommending boosters for everyone 18+.


Pfizer is going to present some trial results in the April/May time frame. See this post









COVID-19 thread for 2022


Shanghai is locked down until May. Locals are complaining of severe food shortages. One local indicates the only food her family has been able to obtain in two weeks is 30 eggs. I don't know how many people in her household but, even if there are just two people, that's one egg per person per...




www.canadianmoneyforum.com


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Well he just got back from the Dominican...
> 
> I doubt he's any less political than Dr Tam, but that's irrelevant.


 ... at least Trudeau doesn't speak for Tam unlike Ford who fills in for Moore whilst he's away.


> He's the top medical expert, and they're apparently not ignoring him.


 ... top political expert now you mean. And no they are not ignoring him. Only he is ignoring everyone else.



> Secondly practical considerations are important, if they tried to implement harsh restrictions now they'd fail. They might have been able to get away with masking, but not much more.


 ... not asking him to re-implement harsh restrictions (what, no lockdown?! OMG,we need air to breathe out that word!!!!) The Ford government already determined that - no re-implementing the mandates, including that of the mask. Which means Moore is potentially a mouthpiece for Ford, not acting as a "top", "medical" ... doctor as in an "MD" even. Can't he make his own decisions regardless of Ford? Afterall, isn't Ford supposedly to be taking "advice" from the province's "top", "medical", "officer"? Or is it the other way around ... the "top", "medical" "officer" taking advice from Ford, his boss?

It would not surprise me lawsuits on employers are going to come abound now that the mandates have been removed, particularly the mask one when employees expected returning back to work in person gets "infected" with 'unsafe' working conditions. The employers now don't have a leg to stand without the mandates (as determined and "removed" by the government.). Everyone (including employees and employers) are REALLY on their own now. Just cool.

Also, will be interesting to see cityhall workers ordered back to the office near the end of April ... LOL!!!!


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Well he just got back from the Dominican...
> 
> I doubt he's any less political than Dr Tam, but that's irrelevant.
> He's the top medical expert, and they're apparently not ignoring him.
> 
> Secondly practical considerations are important, if they tried to implement harsh restrictions now they'd fail. They might have been able to get away with masking, but not much more.


It could be that the public opinion of Moore is guided by his political masters, regardless of his professional opinion. The unwinding of distancing seemed overly hasty and overly convenient for the impending election.


----------



## Beaver101

Deleted. Don't want to offend the Pinnochio creators.


----------



## Birder

OptsyEagle said:


> Ontario is not the only place that has observed this "negative efficacy" phenomenon with the vaccines. Here is a study conducted by Danish scientists from the Statens Serum Institut, published on December 23, 2021.
> 
> You can clearly see that at the 91 to 150 day time period, that the protection against infection for both Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines, against Omicron, actually went negative. Now keep in mind they would have many of the same problems to deal with that I discussed above, but I just want to point out that this phenomenon has been seen before. It is not just Ontario showing it.
> 
> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v3.full.pdf
> View attachment 23072


What I find most fascinating/disturbing about this chart, and I have read many others which are very similar, is that the vaccine effectiveness is reported as an AVERAGE number when actual experience by the test group is the whole distribution range. It appears that, for Moderna, some people may always have negative efficacy. Every single bar chart has a range below zero, at ALL time intervals. With the Pfizer chart, there is negative efficacy for "some" people as soon as 31 days have passed.


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> Ontario is not the only place that has observed this "negative efficacy" phenomenon with the vaccines. Here is a study conducted by Danish scientists from the Statens Serum Institut, published on December 23, 2021.
> 
> You can clearly see that at the 91 to 150 day time period, that the protection against infection for both Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines, against Omicron, actually went negative. Now keep in mind they would have many of the same problems to deal with that I discussed above, but I just want to point out that this phenomenon has been seen before. It is not just Ontario showing it.
> 
> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v3.full.pdf
> View attachment 23072


You're mis-reading what they are saying about the booster. They're comparing the booster effectiveness against those who are fully vaccinated for the 60+ age cohort.

From the paper:

VE among those who had received a booster dose 14 to 44 days earlier was 54.6% (30.4 to 70.4%) *using those with only primary vaccination as comparison* (analysis restricted to 60+ yearolds).

They aren't comparing to unvaccinated people.

When they do, they use the British data and point out the significant increase in VE:

A recent study from England (in preprint) found higher effectiveness against symptomatic Omicron initially after BNT162b2 vaccination followed by a rapid decline in protection, and that VE increased to 75.5% (56.1 to 86.3%) two weeks after booster vaccination using unvaccinated individuals as comparison.

Even their conclusion points out the significant benefit of boosters.

Our study contributes to emerging evidence that BNT162b2 or mRNA-1273 primary vaccine protection against Omicron decreases quickly over time with booster vaccination offering a significant increase in protection. In light of the exponential rise in Omicron cases, these findings highlight the need for massive rollout of vaccinations and booster vaccinations.

So, no, the paper doesn't state that the booster reduces the effectiveness against Omicron.

Edit: Ah, nvm, I see you're talking about the effectiveness after 90 days. All I can say is that they ended their study at Dec 12 which is just about the time when covid cases were starting to really ramp up, so there may be some odd time effect at play, i.e. 90 days was coinciding with the large increase in cases.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Birder said:


> What I find most fascinating/disturbing about this chart, and I have read many others which are very similar, is that the vaccine effectiveness is reported as an AVERAGE number when actual experience by the test group is the whole distribution range. It appears that, for Moderna, some people may always have negative efficacy. Every single bar chart has a range below zero, at ALL time intervals. With the Pfizer chart, there is negative efficacy for "some" people as soon as 31 days have passed.


The main reason the lines drop into "negative efficacy" for all time periods, with Moderna for example, is mainly because the data has fairly low confidence. That is because when they did their study they did not have a very large number of people infected with the Omicron variant to study. This then statistically increases the range of possible outcomes. I tend to stay focused on the dot but I agree, we cannot know for sure what the real answer is. 

It is concerning but it does mainly deal with protection from infection. Most of us have already written off having any protection with that. My main concern is if there is a trade off. If I am trading something I want to know what I am getting. I think most people feel the vaccine is all upside and no downside and hence they feel more is usually better. I am not so sure, is all I am saying.


----------



## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> You're mis-reading what they are saying about the booster. They're comparing the booster effectiveness against those who are fully vaccinated for the 60+ age cohort.
> 
> From the paper:
> 
> VE among those who had received a booster dose 14 to 44 days earlier was 54.6% (30.4 to 70.4%) *using those with only primary vaccination as comparison* (analysis restricted to 60+ yearolds).
> 
> They aren't comparing to unvaccinated people.
> 
> When they do, they use the British data and point out the significant increase in VE:
> 
> A recent study from England (in preprint) found higher effectiveness against symptomatic Omicron initially after BNT162b2 vaccination followed by a rapid decline in protection, and that VE increased to 75.5% (56.1 to 86.3%) two weeks after booster vaccination using unvaccinated individuals as comparison.
> 
> Even their conclusion points out the significant benefit of boosters.
> 
> Our study contributes to emerging evidence that BNT162b2 or mRNA-1273 primary vaccine protection against Omicron decreases quickly over time with booster vaccination offering a significant increase in protection. In light of the exponential rise in Omicron cases, these findings highlight the need for massive rollout of vaccinations and booster vaccinations.
> 
> So, no, the paper doesn't state that the booster reduces the effectiveness against Omicron.
> 
> Edit: Ah, nvm, I see you're talking about the effectiveness after 90 days. All I can say is that they ended their study at Dec 12 which is just about the time when covid cases were starting to really ramp up, so there may be some odd time effect at play, i.e. 90 days was coinciding with the large increase in cases.


I am not saying that the boosters do not provide temporary increased protection against infection. I am just pointing out that this observation, that after a period of time, the protection from infection not only wanes but becomes LESS then the protection that an unvaccinated person has, has been seen before.

They are using 2 dose vaccination compared unvaccinated in the chart I presented. I believe the main purpose of this study was to illustrate the much larger decrease in protection that the 2 dose vaccination series provided against Omicron compared to Delta. They also checked the protections after a 3rd booster. You see that in the title:



> Title: Vaccine effectiveness against SARS-CoV-2 infection with the Omicron or Delta variants following a two-dose or booster BNT162b2 or mRNA-1273 vaccination series: A Danish cohort study


----------



## OptsyEagle

I did not bring that original chart to this board because I really don't want to get into an argument about what it means. I stated above that there are 3 possible reasons why the vaccines are, at times, showing a waning BELOW zero efficacy. In other words, hurting us in some level of our immune response. I have responded to Birder's post because of course I follow all data, favourable or not, just to learn more. I am vaccinated.

Although the idea that a vaccinated person might eventually end up with less protection then someone not vaccinated, in any category of virus protection, seems unfathomable, but there is a theory as to why this may be. Our immune systems are very complex systems. They not only have to protect us from some invaders that may hurt us but they also have to allow other invaders to enter our bodies, so as they can help us or simply when they are perceived to not be a threat.

The best example of this, that I can think of, are allergies. If our immune systems reacted to every allergen out there we would all have to go through life constantly sneezing, coughing, watery eyes and runny or stuff up noses. Those symptoms do not come from the allergen, they come from our immune response to the allergen. For most of us, when we are near a tree, we are fine. That is because our immune systems have identified the allergens from the tree as safe and it does not respond to it. That is because we have been exposed to it so often without harm. I will repeat. That is because we have been exposed to it, so often, without harm. Does that not sound a little like a vaccination to you. Exposing yourself to something, repeatedly, without harm. I worry that if you keep doing that, too often, your body will eventually start to suppress the immune reaction to the virus, delaying your necessary immune response to it, making you symptomatically sick. It would be just a temporary delay and obviously the other immune responses seem to be doing a great job of keeping us out of the hospital, and the grave, but do we really want our bodies to get too comfortable with Covid-19. With the real virus, it always has teeth. Your body would unlikely not see it as a threat. That is the theory. It is very likely wrong, but until I know I that need another dose, I am going to wait and watch.


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## sags

A highly infectious virus within a highly vaccinated population.......so more infections are among vaccinated people.

I don't think it means anything more than that. There is no evidence at all that waning vaccines are actually causing infections.

As noted by the analysis I provided, the low cases of severe outcomes is likely due to the virus spreading among the young ages first, as they were the easiest for the virus to infect. As the wave continues to grow older people will become infected next and the more severe outcomes will start to rise with the infections.

People in LTC and retirement homes were among the first to receive the first booster shots and their immunity will have diminished over time.

That is why the health authorities are advising older people to get a second booster shot as soon as possible.


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## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> There is no evidence at all that waning vaccines are actually causing infections.


The virus is causing infections. What we are talking about is who is more susceptible to getting infected.

I will add that everyone pretty much gets infected the same. In other words, once you breathe in the virus, you are technically infected. The issue is who fights it off quicker. Even if the theory I put forward is correct, and we will need a lot more info before that is declared by me, I suspect the issue would be that unvaccinated immune systems might respond just a little quicker to the virus, and for low dose infections, have a much higher chance of being asymptomatic.

For higher dose infections, the vaccine is absolutely critical to your positive outcome and survival. Even with this data and even if this theory is true, if asked again to be vaccinated by answer would undoubtedly be YES, for the 1st dose. With Omicron I might leave it at that. Delta was around during my offer of a 2nd dose and with Delta that answer there would also be a hands down YES again.

I am just not sure that someone under 60, fairly healthy needs that 3rd dose to fight Omicron, but it is getting more difficult to find uncorrupted data on this question. So I will leave this issue there.


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## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> I did not bring that original chart to this board because I really don't want to get into an argument about what it means. I stated above that there are 3 possible reasons why the vaccines are, at times, showing a waning BELOW zero efficacy. In other words, hurting us in some level of our immune response. I have responded to Birder's post because of course I follow all data, favourable or not, just to learn more. I am vaccinated.
> 
> Although the idea that a vaccinated person might eventually end up with less protection then someone not vaccinated, in any category of virus protection, seems unfathomable, but there is a theory as to why this may be. Our immune systems are very complex systems. They not only have to protect us from some invaders that may hurt us but they also have to allow other invaders to enter our bodies, so as they can help us or simply when they are perceived to not be a threat.
> 
> The best example of this, that I can think of, are allergies. If our immune systems reacted to every allergen out there we would all have to go through life constantly sneezing, coughing, watery eyes and runny or stuff up noses. Those symptoms do not come from the allergen, they come from our immune response to the allergen. For most of us, when we are near a tree, we are fine. That is because our immune systems have identified the allergens from the tree as safe and it does not respond to it. That is because we have been exposed to it so often without harm. I will repeat. That is because we have been exposed to it, so often, without harm. Does that not sound a little like a vaccination to you. Exposing yourself to something, repeatedly, without harm. I worry that if you keep doing that, too often, your body will eventually start to suppress the immune reaction to the virus, delaying your necessary immune response to it, making you symptomatically sick. It would be just a temporary delay and obviously the other immune responses seem to be doing a great job of keeping us out of the hospital, and the grave, but do we really want our bodies to get too comfortable with Covid-19. With the real virus, it always has teeth. Your body would unlikely not see it as a threat. That is the theory. It is very likely wrong, but until I know I that need another dose, I am going to wait and watch.


I just wanted to point out that there could be odd statistical issues at play, particularly when it comes to the timing, and low relative numbers. Also overlooks the fact that the vaccination rate was 78% at that time.


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## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> I just wanted to point out that there could be odd statistical issues at play, particularly when it comes to the timing, and low relative numbers. Also overlooks the fact that the vaccination rate was 78% at that time.


Almost for sure there are weird statistical issues causing problems with the data. I also pointed out that the data from Ontario does not correlate with the data from Ontario's Science table. In other words, the Science table clearly shows a waning but still "positive" efficacy against infection. The data directly from Ontario shows a "negative" efficacy. That is a very important observation for everyone to keep in mind. We don't know yet which one is correct and for now it is not important. Just assume when you come in contact with the virus you will be infected.

I will also point out that one of the authors, who conducted the Danish study I posted, issued a statement attempting to explain the negative efficacy in their results. He also pointed towards "low relative numbers", specifically with respect to the number of unvaccinated tested. I believe though that his explanation is more of an opinion, then a fact, even though it is coming from a very intelligent scientist.

So the theory I have alluded to is far from proven and for now should be disregarded. What I am doing is keeping the observation on the back burner, so to speak, and focusing more on whether the next dose is helpful or not, as opposed to causing any kind of damage. Maybe we will find out for sure what is going on but for now, the vaccines are appearing to be quite helpful in at least the first couple of doses and also for the 3rd dose if you are in a vulnerable group. That is what I have observed.


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## Birder

Interestingly, I have a friend whose mother is in LTC in Sarnia. She had already had her 4th shot as at February 3rd. I was surprised and wonder what is the uptake on 4th doses in LTC homes in Ontario. I know there are currently 101 LTC homes in outbreak out of 626.


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## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> Almost for sure there are weird statistical issues causing problems with the data. I also pointed out that the data from Ontario does not correlate with the data from Ontario's Science table. In other words, the Science table clearly shows a waning but still "positive" efficacy against infection. The data directly from Ontario shows a "negative" efficacy. That is a very important observation for everyone to keep in mind. We don't know yet which one is correct and for now it is not important. Just assume when you come in contact with the virus you will be infected.
> 
> I will also point out that one of the authors, who conducted the Danish study I posted, issued a statement attempting to explain the negative efficacy in their results. He also pointed towards "low relative numbers", specifically with respect to the number of unvaccinated tested. I believe though that his explanation is more of an opinion, then a fact, even though it is coming from a very intelligent scientist.
> 
> So the theory I have alluded to is far from proven and for now should be disregarded. What I am doing is keeping the observation on the back burner, so to speak, and focusing more on whether the next dose is helpful or not, as opposed to causing any kind of damage. Maybe we will find out for sure what is going on but for now, the vaccines are appearing to be quite helpful in at least the first couple of doses and also for the 3rd dose if you are in a vulnerable group. That is what I have observed.


Sure, but I would rather look at the more obvious explanation, i.e. statistical, rather than try to come up with some sort of theory to fit the observation.


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## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> Sure, but I would rather look at the more obvious explanation, i.e. statistical, rather than try to come up with some sort of theory to fit the observation.


That is an approach. I prefer to keep all explanations available in memory and not dismiss them too quickly. I have worked in a laboratory environment before and many times I have come across experimental observations that I quickly dismissed because they did not fit the theory of what I thought I should observe. I would use excuses like "statistical noise" as the explanation for these irregularities quite often. Unfortuneately, the truth usually comes out and sometimes, although perhaps not the majority of times, when new information comes out, changing the opinion on how something actually works, I would remember some of those observations that I dismissed too quickly and realize that they were actually telling me something very important.

So since then I have used a technique where when I see weird data, before I dismiss it, I attempt to look at it from an unbiased opinion. See if there is anything that would make the observation relevant. Finding a theory does not mean the data is relevant. It just means that I should keep it in mind as I watch other data come forward, so I can recall it quickly in case it is needed to help me figure out what is really going on.

Remember we also have the fact that after each consecutive dose, the time for the waning of the protection against infection, tends to decrease quicker and quicker after each dose. For example, we have seen that after 2 doses the protection starts to wane in the 4 to 6 month time frame. After a 3rd dose the protection starts to wane in about 10 weeks and after the 4th dose they are showing the wane beginning in approximately 6 weeks. Is that a statistical quirk? Does that sound like the body is acting the same way after every consecutive dose of vaccine? Does it perhaps sound like the body might be starting to suppress its immune reaction quicker after each dose? I don't know what it means precisely, but again, I also don't dismiss observations like this too quickly. I have regretted that too many times.


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## MrMatt

sags said:


> There is no evidence at all that waning vaccines are actually causing infections.


Yes there is.


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## MrMatt

Birder said:


> Interestingly, I have a friend whose mother is in LTC in Sarnia. She had already had her 4th shot as at February 3rd. I was surprised and wonder what is the uptake on 4th doses in LTC homes in Ontario. I know there are currently 101 LTC homes in outbreak out of 626.


I think that COVID19 is still one of the bigger risks for vulnerable populations, even a very slight benefit is likely helpful.
Remember vaccinated people are getting COVID, but they still have lower hospitalization rates.


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## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> Remember we also have the fact that after each consecutive dose, the time for the waning of the protection against infection, tends to decrease quicker and quicker after each dose. For example, we have seen that after 2 doses the protection starts to wane in the 4 to 6 month time frame. After a 3rd dose the protection starts to wane in about 10 weeks and after the 4th dose they are showing the wane beginning in approximately 6 weeks.


Not necessarily. There is also a time consideration. For example, if we look at the 2 doses, I think most would have had that long before Omicron and you would have primarily have had the Delta variant as the main variant. But then Omicron comes around and we start pushing the booster. So we're comparing the effectiveness of 2 doses vs Delta and the booster vs Omicron, with Omicron being more virulent and more prone to vaccine breakthrough. So is it really that the booster is less effective? Or is it that Omicron is that much more "stronger"? So there needs to be some consideration on the variant that is being studied. Just like we're saying for the 4th dose, is that compared to Omicron BA2 now that is even more successful in breaking through vaccine protection? How about comparing those who received the 4th booster to those who only just recently received 2 doses? Certainly there is some theory that excessive boosters are taxing the immune system, but that's hard to prove when you are comparing the effectiveness against different strains of virus.


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## OptsyEagle

No doubt. Variants matter. Time from last dose is also quite the moving target these days. Not all 2 dose people are the same for example. Some had their last dose a year ago and others had it last week. You just can't call everyone in that group the same anymore. As time moves on it is all becoming more of a blur then a well focused image.

At this stage of the game. That chart MrMatt just reposted above, in my opinion, is most likely a "statistical quirk". I am more concerned about whether I will benefit from another dose then if another dose might harm me, but of course I am keeping my eye on both, just because I obviously have too much time on my hands...and I am a curious guy. I always have more questions then answers. lol

Thanks for the discussion.


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## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Yes there is.
> View attachment 23083


 ... if the interpretation (aka manipulation) of the above graph is used as "evidence" to indicate that "waning" vaccines are causing infections or further infections, that's because the vaccine hasn't been tweaked fast enough to keep up with variants. And Omicron just so happen to b the latest variant being 10x more infectious than the previous one with the additional ability to evade the vaccine (made specifically for the Delta variant). 

Waning vaccines are not causing the infections. It's walking/talking/moving all around "people" including asymptomatics and previously infecteds are causing further infections aka "sharing/spreading their love of germs" all around.


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## OptsyEagle

I should probably add one more chart in case anyone has any hair left on their head that they have not scratched away. I mentioned in my response to Birder that the chart he posted has changed on March 17th to illustrate 3 dose, 2 dose and no dose. Before that, Ontario showed the rate of infections for 2 dose, 1 dose and no doses. This is a 90 day look up to around February 24th, 2022. I saved this graph, because as I said, I have been watching this, and that is how I am able to post it today. Keep in mind that in this chart Ontario combines both 2 dose and 3 dose citizens and just calls them the fully vaccinated group.

What you see here is that full vaccination showed a clear benefit in protecting us from infection right up until around Christmas. Then the unvaccinated seem to be getting infected a lot less then the vaccinated. Then the infections associated with full vaccination started to improve, showing positive efficacy again around the end of January and then started dropping off again, to a negative efficacy level that we are seeing today. All this is posted from Ontario.










Is this a quirk? Maybe. It is certainly a smooth quirk for something that is supposed to be coming from noisy results. Did the unvaccinated decide to protect themselves more then the vaccinated did, around Christmas, then become reckless again after, and then start protecting themselves more in March. Unlikely. It certainly is a lot of quirks if that is to explain it. Is it the variant? Both groups are being exposed to the same variant. Is it possible that we get a lot of protection, in the early days after vaccination and then it wanes to something less then the unvaccinated have later, UNLESS we redose, like we started doing around and after Christmas. Then the protection from infection comes back but again for a shorter and shorter amount of time, before it wanes back to something worse then we started with? That's kind of what it looks like is happening. Anyway, some interesting things to ponder. That is pretty much all I have on the matter.


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## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> Did the unvaccinated decide to protect themselves more then the vaccinated did, around Christmas, then become reckless again after, and then start protecting themselves more in March. Unlikely. It certainly is a lot of quirks if that is to explain it. Is it the variant?


Or, the explanation is that the vaste majority of the unvaccinated got infected already and you're really talking about 2 different groups of unvaccinated: those who have been infected and those who haven't. Perhaps breaking that down may provide a bit more insight. Lots of variables to consider that these charts aren't really providing.


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## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Is this a quirk? Maybe.


Case data has always been inaccurate for anything other than providing trends. Way to many variables in the general public pool to compare. I'm not sure why people focus on that, we all know it is unreliable.


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## Money172375

Maybe the unvaccinated are’t engaging in Riskier behaviour. The vaxxed are very confident and socializing a lot.


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## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Case data has always been inaccurate for anything other than providing trends. Way to many variables in the general public pool to compare. I'm not sure why people focus on that, we all know it is unreliable.


Well people tend to misinterpret statistics, and this situation is very complicated.



Money172375 said:


> Maybe the unvaccinated are’t engaging in Riskier behaviour. The vaxxed are very confident and socializing a lot.


Yeah I doubt it. I engage with a decent number of unvaccinated, they were in general far less cautious. Maybe that changed, but I doubt it.


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## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Some like @TomB16 are arguing to just let covid rip through society, but this is exactly why it's a bad idea.


That's not quite my position, but I could see how you would think this way.

In case anyone cares about my actual position...

COVID19 is a river that must be crossed. The vaccine is a canoe. Omicron is the narrowest part of the river.

My position is to vax and infect, for the bulk of the population. So James, if I was you I would get a booster shot of vaccine, wait two weeks, and then stop wearing a mask or avoiding crowds. I would head out into the world and expose myself like a fat woman on the deck of a cruise ship.

COVID19 infections are not all the same. Once a person has acquired natural immunity, they are no longer in mortal danger from the virus. Breakthrough infections are barely an inconvenience.

So many posts in this thread equate all COVID infections, as though any infection is a game of Russian roulette. This simply isn't the case. Once you have had it, the odds of dying or even requiring a health care intervention are extremely low. Breakthrough infections are akin to a cold, except more mild.

Of course, vulnerable people need to defend themselves from the virus to the extent reasonably possible.

Gotta say, I have zero problem putting on a mask and washing my hands when my obese cousin and her portly husband stop by. Unfortunately, that won't be necessary as they were taken out by Delta last year. They were COVID deniers.

If it seems I'm a COVID denier, you haven't bothered to read this post properly. I look forward to an opportunity to reduce other people's risk and I'm glad to be past the COVID19 event horizon myself.

More than any of this, I will observe all mandated pandemic protocols, as well as the recommended ones. The reason for this is because it is required for a functional society and I am a man of respect. *I'm sure as Beaver is argumentative not going to walk into a care home with no mask because I think it would be good for the residents to get COVID*.


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## TomB16

So, James, the point of my last post is that if you and I were to go for coffee, I would show up wearing a mask. I would do this out of respect for you, not out of fear of the virus. I know you are trying to avoid getting it and I respect that.

Also, I'm not going to spend the rest of my life locked in my house. I have 30 years to live, best case, so every year of potential adventure lost to the virus is 3% of my life that was not optimal. It comes down to risk versus opportunity cost.


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## HappilyRetired

TomB16 said:


> Also, I'm not going to spend the rest of my life locked in my house. I have 30 years to live, best case, so every year of potential adventure lost to the virus is 3% of my life that was not optimal. It comes down to risk versus opportunity cost.


Realistically, if you're 60 and have 30 years left then you probably have 15 "good" years left, not 30. Unless you're lucky. The majority of people slow down around 75. They stop travelling, are less active, have a lot more aches and pains, etc. Covid may have taken away 15% of your best remaining years.

My dad is 83 and maybe has 3 years left due to his health. Covid has robbed him of most of the last 2 years, or 40% of his (potentially) remaining life. 2 years ago my parents went to the Dominican. My dad won't be able to next winter. Covid took winter travel away from my dad.

My wife's mother is 84 and has dementia and Alzheimer's. Covid has robbed her of the last 2 years, she has maybe a year or two left before she'll have to go into memory care or something similar.


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## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> That's not quite my position, but I could see how you would think this way.
> 
> In case anyone cares about my actual position...
> 
> COVID19 is a river that must be crossed. The vaccine is a canoe. Omicron is the narrowest part of the river.
> 
> My position is to vax and infect, for the bulk of the population. So James, if I was you I would get a booster shot of vaccine, wait two weeks, and then stop wearing a mask or avoiding crowds. I would head out into the world and expose myself like a fat woman on the deck of a cruise ship.
> 
> COVID19 infections are not all the same. *Once a person has acquired natural immunity, they are no longer in mortal danger from the virus. *Breakthrough infections are barely an inconvenience.
> 
> So many posts in this thread equate all COVID infections, as though any infection is a game of Russian roulette. This simply isn't the case. Once you have had it, the odds of dying or even requiring a health care intervention are extremely low. Breakthrough infections are akin to a cold, except more mild.
> 
> Of course, vulnerable people need to defend themselves from the virus to the extent reasonably possible.
> 
> Gotta say, I have zero problem putting on a mask and washing my hands when my obese cousin and her portly husband stop by. Unfortunately, that won't be necessary as they were taken out by Delta last year. They were COVID deniers.
> 
> If it seems I'm a COVID denier, you haven't bothered to read this post properly. I look forward to an opportunity to reduce other people's risk and I'm glad to be past the COVID19 event horizon myself.
> 
> More than any of this, I will observe all mandated pandemic protocols, as well as the recommended ones. The reason for this is because it is required for a functional society and I am a man of respect. *I'm sure as Beaver is argumentative not going to walk into a care home with no mask because I think it would be good for the residents to get COVID*.


 ... your argument is weak right smack in the middle where I red bolded and underlined it. That's like saying your immune system gets stronger as you get older. And older people don't need annual flu shots either.

And I would like you to tell a younger "working" person like a teacher or a nurse that "breakthrough infections are barely an inconvenience." Maybe (or more like maybe NOT) those working over at Ford's office or at cityhall might like those inconveniences ... getting paid for working SO HARD like that Moore guy doing 24/7  in the Dominion Republic as witnessed by his boss.


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## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... your argument is weak right smack in the middle where I red bolded and underlined it.


Beaver, I enjoy your posts. You are a smart man. But, my incisor enhanced friend, you would argue with a fence post.

Immune systems get smarter as people get older, not stronger. Immune systems are taught to identify infections through experience. Anyone who lives their life in a bubble and then steps out into the world, is in for a broad array of nasty infections.


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## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> So, James, the point of my last post is that if you and I were to go for coffee, I would show up wearing a mask. I would do this out of respect for you, not out of fear of the virus. I know you are trying to avoid getting it and I respect that.
> 
> Also, I'm not going to spend the rest of my life locked in my house. I have 30 years to live, best case, so every year of potential adventure lost to the virus is 3% of my life that was not optimal. It comes down to risk versus opportunity cost.


I hear ya, that's all sensible.

I just don't see how people think they are locked at home. I'm not locked at home and neither is anyone else I know. My parents just flew to the Caribbean. I went to the gym and swimming pool the other day, and it was packed full of people. Doesn't seem like anyone is hiding at home.

I walked around a university campus last week and it was overflowing with people, very busy, everyone seemingly doing their normal thing.

As for covid exposure, anyone who's out in public is getting some exposure. It's guaranteed. These masks aren't 100% and they don't seal that well anyway, so all of us are getting some amount of daily exposure and it's been that way throughout the whole pandemic.


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## TomB16

Did you wear a mask in the pool?


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## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Beaver, I enjoy your posts. You are a smart man. But, my incisor enhanced friend, you would argue with a fence post.


 ... LOL! Yes, I would and only because the fence post chooses to be one first.



> Immune systems get smarter as people get older, not stronger. Immune systems are taught to identify infections through experience.


 ... possibly but then how do you explain that older people still need "flu" shots, annually? Their "smart" immune systems should be able to recognize the flu-virus. 



> Anyone who lives their life in a bubble and then steps out into the world, is in for a broad array of nasty infections.


 ... I hope you're aware that there're people on this planet (though rare) are without an immune system so they don't stand a chance amongst the 99.99999999% of us "normal" people. So it's no brainer any infection will do them in. And then there're those who are immuno-compromised or immuno-suppressed as they're going under chemo-treatment. Again, no brainer they can't sustain any infections, let alone a nasty one. Have you heard of an infection that's unnasty (other than an infectious smile)? I haven't.


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## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> Okay, just back from a shopping trip and observed "recess" of 1 public high school. Only 20% of the students gathered in the field was masked. I'm guessing Covid is not an issue for these youngsters when they return home or when they visit grandpa/grandma (if they do). Amazing. No wonder the teachers are screaming their heads off.


 ... the irony between what the TDSB wants (aka recommend) and what the students are actually doing.

Toronto school board calls for resumption of mask wearing indoors but won't mandate it

Let's see what transpires over the week. We got the Easter weekend coming up and so it's good to give the teachers a break and let the sharings happen elsewhere.


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## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Did you wear a mask in the pool?


 .... why does he need a mask when he has scuba-diving gears? James most likely kept his distance - swimming in the deep end whereas everyone else are congregating in the shallow end.


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## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... possibly but then how do you explain that older people still need "flu" shots, annually? Their "smart" immune systems should be able to recognize the flu-virus.


Flu shots only immunize against a few of the newest virus. I'm told they are typically developed based on three specific virus.

As for "need"... I'm old, immuno compromized, haven't taken a flue shot in over a decade, and haven't died yet (that I am aware). I will concede the possibility that I am currently residing in Hell and this exchange with you is my penalty for eating my brother's cake at my 10th birthday.




Beaver101 said:


> ... I hope you're aware that there're people on this planet (though rare) are without an immune system so they don't stand a chance amongst the 99.99999999% of us "normal" people.


Are you suggesting the world mask and take precautions indefinitely to protect these people? If so, what changed our morality in 2019 with the introduction of COVID because these folks were always in mortal danger from any flu or perhaps a mild sunburn.


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## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> Did you wear a mask in the pool?


I wore a KN95 mask the whole time in the locker room. About half the people were wearing a mask. When swimming, no mask of course.

The pool has enough space that people had some distance between them so I'm not too worried about the swimming part. It's a large facility with a lot of air space, plus they keep a door open to the outside.

The part that worries me is the locker rooms since they're an enclosed space, sometimes crowded. I skipped the shower to minimize exposure time and went home to shower. A large group of kids arrived as I was leaving.

Enclosed spaces, high density of people, and school age children are all high-risk factors for COVID transmission. Next time I will avoid this end of day period when the kids arrive. But I absolutely will wear a KN95 mask in locker rooms.


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## TomB16

Perhaps if you stuffed some dacron down your snorkel.....


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## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Perhaps if you stuffed some dacron down your snorkel.....


 ... now now now Tom, I'm the one who suggested James brought his diving gears. He already explained the precautions he took (in additioni to the facility's) and it's obvious he can't wear a mask whilst swimming. I think the chorinated water would have killed the virus spilled out from all the swimmer's mouth if not the other stuffs coming out from the other end(s).


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Flu shots only immunize against a few of the newest virus. I'm told they are typically developed based on three specific virus.


 ... isn't this similar to how the Covid vaccine works only Covid is deadlier. And even then the annual flu kills despite the tin-foil argument of anti-vaxxers that Covid is only the flu! Which means so much for the theory of "natural" immunity where your immune systems is "smart" enough (if not stronger) to recognize .... the flu, never mind new strains of Covid!


> As for "need"... I'm old, immuno compromized, haven't taken a flue shot in over a decade, and haven't died yet (that I am aware).


 ... I'm not old (yet), not immuno-compromized (since when were you?), do take the flu shot "annually" on the advice of my physician and yet still get the flu whilst working (for an employer), TWICE a year! And funny enough, like another forum member Newfoundlander61, I have not once come down with a cold, let alone a flu since the pandemic started / not working elsewhere (on sabbatical, now extended as permanent). Coincidence? I think NOT!

Besides, I ain't as brave nor as strong as you. No thanks for the germs. Call me germasphobic now but I prefer not to share the germs. Again, no thanks.



> I will concede the possibility that I am currently residing in Hell and this exchange with you is my penalty for eating my brother's cake at my 10th birthday.


 ... your brother's cake was meant to be shared so you get to go to heaven. Lucky for you that I'm responding ...nicely. Btw, I'm a dudette though I can be related to you as a tomboy.



> Are you suggesting the world mask and take precautions indefinitely to protect these people?


 ... no, not "indefinitely". Just as long as it takes or when the pandemic has been decleared over. And it's not just to protect "these people", but "everyone or almost" with the special exception of crybabies.



> If so, what changed our morality in 2019 with the introduction of COVID because these folks were always in mortal danger from any flu or perhaps a mild sunburn.


 ... protect everyone for the greater good of society. 

I gather there's a certain trait in humans that will never change with time of which I had mentioned in capital letters before. No need for me to repeat that to you or I'll be sounding like a broken record.


----------



## Beaver101

Ford open to extending mask mandate for high-risk settings, advises people to ‘be cautious’ over long weekend

Father Ford knows best! Shouldn't he be telling his eldest first of this? What a joke this guy has become along with his clown team.

Toronto Mayor John Tory tests positive for COVID-19

Not sure why this is on front page news when it's expected ... natural immunity is best!


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... now now now Tom, I'm the one who suggested James brought his diving gears. He already explained the precautions he took (in additioni to the facility's) and it's obvious he can't wear a mask whilst swimming. I think the chorinated water would have killed the virus spilled out from all the swimmer's mouth if not the other stuffs coming out from the other end(s).


Unless people are very crowded in the swimming pool itself, I really think the danger is in the locker rooms where people tend to cluster, and the air is stagnant & enclosed.

Same as everything with COVID. With enough air space and distance, you're probably fine. The problem is when you take a bunch of humans and enclose them in a box for a long time, e.g. an office, meeting room, or Easter family gathering.


----------



## Beaver101

^ That's why it's prudent to still have that inconvenience on. At least the CDC kinda got this figured out - or says their stats:

U.S. CDC extends travel mask requirement to May 3 as COVID rises


----------



## james4beach

I'm more shocked that the Americans were thinking of removing mandatory masks in airline travel.


----------



## james4beach

For you BC residents out there... I took a look at what data I could find about positivity rate and hospitalizations, plus the waste water readings.

It doesn't yet look like a new wave is hitting BC, nothing like Ontario's. Perhaps it's just a matter of time but I think community spread is reasonably tame right now in BC.


----------



## TomB16

Reported COVID cases in China have been growing at closer to 8.5% per day. I previously mentioned 10% but growth seems to be growing. They are losing the battle but they are losing it a wee bit more slowly than they were 10 days ago.

Meanwhile, a new BA.2 sub-variant is reported that is even more contagious than the ultra contagious BA.2.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Reported COVID cases in China have been growing at closer to 8.5% per day. I previously mentioned 10% but growth seems to be growing. They are losing the battle but they are losing it a wee bit more slowly than they were 10 days ago.


 ... at least that's consistent - a growth that's growing. Here in Ontario, we got a premier with a clown team telling Ontarians no need for the mask mandate but "highly recommend" to mask up - and be especially "cautious" for the Easter weekend. That's like rubbish oozing from more than 2 sides of his mouth.

And in the meanwhile, new modelling suggests hospitalizations are going to increase to surpass 3,000 ... okay, need to fill up those 3,000 with 100 more beds to spare that came out from Ford's tinfoil hat that Health Minister Elliott borrowed also.

New modelling suggests COVID-19 hospitalizations are likely to surpass 3,000 in May

Needless to say the top CMO doesn't have a clue of the stats after his vacation from the DR ... other than the need to defend his boss after the boss defended lying for him. Working 24/7 every day, hardest worker ever ... reporting to Ford as Chief Medical Officer of Ford Nation, Etobicoke, Ontario, Canada and not ONTARIO, CANADA.



> Meanwhile, a new BA.2 sub-variant is reported that is even more contagious than the ultra contagious BA.2.


 ... which is? They've already identified a BA.3, BA.4 and BA.5 sisters of Omicron. Plus the recombinant XE is already here in Canada.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... at least that's consistent - a growth that's growing. Here in Ontario, we got a premier with a clown team telling Ontarians no need for the mask mandate but "highly recommend" to mask up - and be especially "cautious" for the Easter weekend.


Are you worried the COVID hospital crisis will resurrect from the dead, this weekend?


----------



## sags

A hospital crisis is already here in Ontario.

Note.....the hospitalizations for covid are at 1,364 and doubling every 18 days.



















Ontario Dashboard - Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table


NOTICE: This website is no longer updated.If you have questions about previously published Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table resources, please email [email protected] Current Status in Ontario Contents Current Status in Ontario Current COVID-19 Risk in Ontario by Vaccination Status...




covid19-sciencetable.ca


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Are you worried the COVID hospital crisis will resurrect from the dead, this weekend?


 ... I ain't worry as it ain't my head on the chopping block comes June 2nd. 

So are you worry about China's numbers with growth that's growing? And the emergence of nameless variant that's more infectious than Omicron - BA.2? 

So which door number would you like to pick?


----------



## TomB16

You two sucked the joy out of a solid Easter joke. May your eggs be filled with afterbirth.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> A hospital crisis is already here in Ontario.
> 
> Note.....the hospitalizations for covid are at 1,364 and doubling every 18 days


Yes, we've been there for a while, but nobody cares.
Also wastewater is down, so we're likely going to hit peak hospitalization within 2 weeks.
Since we can handle double what we currently have in hospitals, we'll likely not overwhelm them, but I'm not waiting for surgery that's been delayed.

Most people I know have had COVID by now. A few have lingering effects.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> You two sucked the joy out of a solid Easter joke.


 ... really? A solid joke being a Easter one? Since when did you figure out that I celebrate Easter (other than getting free Linder chocolate bunnies) or am religious?

Now if you're talking about our premier and his clown team, then I would agree with you - THEY SUCK THE JOY OUT OF A LONG WEEKEND for PLENTY OF TORONTONIANS after sucking up to each other.



> May your eggs be filled with afterbirth.


 ...same for you. Happy Easter!


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Yes, we've been there for a while, but nobody cares.


 ... who's the "nobody" here?



> Also wastewater is down, so we're likely going to hit peak hospitalization within 2 weeks.


 ... says who? You?



> Since we can handle double what we currently have in hospitals, we'll likely not overwhelm them, but I'm not waiting for surgery that's been delayed.


 ... of course, we can handle the hospitalisations - there're still 1,700 empty beds (latest figure from Ford passed on by Idiot 3,100 minus 1,400) to fill! Now every patient can get their own bed pans and self-serve themselves. Them docs and nurses are not needed even though sick.



> Most people I know have had COVID by now. A few have lingering effects.


 ... does the "most" people you "know" include you? Be honest now, for a change.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Yes, we've been there for a while, but nobody cares.
> Also wastewater is down, so we're likely going to hit peak hospitalization within 2 weeks.
> Since we can handle double what we currently have in hospitals, we'll likely not overwhelm them, but I'm not waiting for surgery that's been delayed.
> 
> Most people I know have had COVID by now. A few have lingering effects.


I was the first person in my immediate family to catch it.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> I was the first person in my immediate family to catch it.


Did you get it worse than the rest or a light case?


----------



## andrewf

It was cold-like. Honestly, the second dose of the vaccine felt worse. No one else in my family has gotten it... my mom just caught a cold or something. Testing negative.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> It was cold-like. Honestly, the second dose of the vaccine felt worse. No one else in my family has gotten it... my mom just caught a cold or something. Testing negative.


The rapid tests are not very effective at Omicron.
Glad you got through it fine.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> I was the first person in my immediate family to catch it.


Glad to hear it was mild for you.

I don't know anyone in my immediately family who's caught it, but several suspect that they have due to some weird symptoms along the way. No confirmed positive tests though. Due to asymptomatic cases and inaccuracy of rapid tests, it's pretty easy to miss a COVID infection.

As far as I know, my parents (in their 70s) have not caught it. On the other hand, all my friends & family who have children had caught COVID.



andrewf said:


> It was cold-like.


How many days would you say you were very sick (or sick enough to stay home)? I'm wondering, if I catch it during one of my upcoming trips, how many days I should extend a hotel to rest & recover.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... really? A solid joke being a Easter one? Since when did you figure out that I celebrate Easter (other than getting free Linder chocolate bunnies) or am religious?


Beaver, I think breathing air is good. What do you think?


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Beaver, I think breathing air is good. What do you think?


 ... I think an oxygen tank with pure oxygen is better for those gasping for air. As for the rest of us, no choice but to breathe in pollution and hope for the best. That's what I think.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> Glad to hear it was mild for you.
> 
> I don't know anyone in my immediately family who's caught it, but several suspect that they have due to some weird symptoms along the way. No confirmed positive tests though. Due to asymptomatic cases and inaccuracy of rapid tests, it's pretty easy to miss a COVID infection.
> 
> As far as I know, my parents (in their 70s) have not caught it. On the other hand, all my friends & family who have children had caught COVID.
> 
> 
> 
> How many days would you say you were very sick (or sick enough to stay home)? I'm wondering, if I catch it during one of my upcoming trips, how many days I should extend a hotel to rest & recover.


Maybe three days I was too sick to go into work. I stayed home for the past two weeks. 2 of those days were on a weekend. I didn't end up taking any time off work, though my productivity was down. I could still attend meetings and give feedback but in depth thinking or analysis was too much for me. I was very tired on the weekend.

Worst part was the headache.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Maybe three days I was too sick to go into work. I stayed home for the past two weeks. 2 of those days were on a weekend. I didn't end up taking any time off work, though my productivity was down. I could still attend meetings and give feedback but in depth thinking or analysis was too much for me. I was very tired on the weekend.
> 
> Worst part was the headache.


Thanks. Do you have any thoughts on how a person should handle this kind of catching covid risk, when travelling? Say you have a vacation to Montreal to attend a festival or something.

I'm just not sure what I'd do if I caught covid during one of these trips. One approach may be to adjust the flight and hotel for the worst days (3 - 5 days) and expect that after 5 days, one would be well enough to fly again.


----------



## TomB16

The key to travel in the era of COVID is testicular health.

Hey... here is a wild idea... what if you were to take a vaccine booster, be careful for two weeks, stop masking, and head out into the world? Expose yourself to COVID, deal with the infection at a time of your choosing, and then travel knowing your immune system has developed a response to deal with omicron. If you are a generally healthy person, you will be fine until a new strain is developed to bring a fresh load of fear and darkness to all forms of media and public discourse.

Even then, if you pick up an infection of a future strain or maybe even a past strain, like delta, you will have significant immunity and it won't be a big deal. It will be like any other cold.

I've had omicron and I wouldn't hesitate to fly to Montreal for their Cheese and Anglophone Burning Festival.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> Hey... here is a wild idea... what if you were to take a vaccine booster, be careful for two weeks, stop masking, and head out into the world?


The way you describe it is how most people think: I'll just get a shot and then I can be care-free. That's not very smart.

Boosters only bring a small reduction in the chance of getting a symptomatic case, and that benefit (to the extent it exists) _disappears quickly_. Meanwhile *the increased risk-taking behaviour* of people who have Tom's mindset more than offsets the small benefit offered. People who think and act like Tom are more likely to catch covid.

(This is probably why Tom has already caught covid twice)

The purpose of the boosters is to prevent severe illness in vulnerable people. These shots aren't magic shields that prevent infection or symptoms. Whether someone has 2 shots or 3 shots or 4 shots, they should do the same thing: avoid crowds, keep a mask on, and don't mix with people if you're feeling unwell.

Unfortunately though, many people do think like Tom, and they are the ones who are contributing to covid circulating throughout society.


----------



## james4beach

This is an important point, because we had this happen as recently as December and January so let's learn from it!

Vaccinated people were driving the omicron spread because they incorrectly thought
(a) the vaccine will protect them from catching omicron
(b) they wouldn't infect others

Both are false. Overconfident vaccinated people were driving of the massive omicron spread in Dec/Jan, spreading the bug around (because they were failing to be cautious) and also getting sick themselves, because of a false sense of security offered by the vaccine.

Whether you've had 2 shots, 3 shots, or 4 shots, you have to be careful during outbreaks like we have now. If you're not wearing a mask, and going to indoor group activities, then you are part of the problem.

If you have 3 shots and are partying, socializing a lot and going around maskless, you are probably going to get sick.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Boosters only bring a small reduction in the chance of getting a symptomatic case, and that benefit (to the extent it exists) _disappears quickly_.


You want a symptomatic case. That's how you get natural immunity.

You also want to avoid a severe case, hence the vaccine.

Taking a chance on a potentially more severe variant in the future isn't all that smart, in my opinion. Omicron is the ticket to relative safety. What's more, we don't have much choice. Omicron is so infectious that we are all going to get it.

If I thought I could avoid COVID19 forever, I would not be in favour of vax and infect.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> You want a symptomatic case. That's how you get natural immunity.
> 
> You also want to avoid a severe case, hence the vaccine.


 ... TomB16, why don't you let J4B (and anyone else) decides if he wants to catch Covid or not, naturally or not. Just like people who don't want to take the vax and not wear the mask. He doesn't need to test your wild "idea (or theory)" for that matter.


> Taking a chance on a potentially more severe variant in the future isn't all that smart, in my opinion. Omicron is the ticket to relative safety. What's more, we don't have much choice. Omicron is so infectious that we are all going to get it.


 ... that's a contradictory opinion if not false. If you think "Omicron is the ticket to relative safety" then why do you think there is a potentially "more severe variant" in the future? Never mind about it being "smart" at all. And if you're correct on the latter - then we'll be sh1t out of luck as we haven't even got a vaccine to take care of the mild version of Omicron.



> If I thought I could avoid COVID19 forever, I would not be in favour of vax and infect.


 .. no, you vax because you don't want to "*end up in the hospital or die*", not because you "want" to intentionally "avoid" Covid.

It's unfortunate that the vax wanes and can't keep up with Covid and their sublineages. No doubt, it's a "modern day" pandemic which might last for a very very very looonnnng time if you think 2+ years is long.

Repeating what I said before, I'll go maskless when the pandemic is officially "declared" over o/w it's the new "normal" to take the necessary precautions as J4B has identified. 

And please don't let me stop anyone from taking their own chances they want or feel fit.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> Thanks. Do you have any thoughts on how a person should handle this kind of catching covid risk, when travelling? Say you have a vacation to Montreal to attend a festival or something.
> 
> I'm just not sure what I'd do if I caught covid during one of these trips. One approach may be to adjust the flight and hotel for the worst days (3 - 5 days) and expect that after 5 days, one would be well enough to fly again.


I would wear a mask in crowded indoor spaces but generally avoid them. Not sure I would go out of my way to attend a festival right now but I am not someone who likes a lot of noise.

From testing positive, or suspecting you are positive based on symptoms, you are supposed to isolate for 5 days, then wear a mask at all times in public for an additional 5 days. That is the guidance in Ontario.

I would say don't stress about it too much.


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> You want a symptomatic case. That's how you get natural immunity.
> 
> You also want to avoid a severe case, hence the vaccine.
> 
> Taking a chance on a potentially more severe variant in the future isn't all that smart, in my opinion. Omicron is the ticket to relative safety. What's more, we don't have much choice. Omicron is so infectious that we are all going to get it.
> 
> If I thought I could avoid COVID19 forever, I would not be in favour of vax and infect.


Natural immunity is not durable. It fades after 60 days.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Vaccinated people were driving the omicron spread because they incorrectly thought
> (a) the vaccine will protect them from catching omicron
> (b) they wouldn't infect others
> 
> Both are false.


Yes, because the government was spreading COVID disinformation, and experts knew it was false at the time, go back, the info was out there.

So when people push for censorship and wanting to control "disinformation" just remember what that REALLY means.
It means silencing of dissent, blocking of alternative viewpoints.

It doesn't mean that only the truth will get out, Canadas COVID response has been harmed by the government spreading false information. 
I think if the government was truthful, and didn't try to suppress information they didn't like, we'd have a more informed populace, and a better response.


----------



## Birder

james4beach said:


> Thanks. Do you have any thoughts on how a person should handle this kind of catching covid risk, when travelling? Say you have a vacation to Montreal to attend a festival or something.
> 
> I'm just not sure what I'd do if I caught covid during one of these trips. One approach may be to adjust the flight and hotel for the worst days (3 - 5 days) and expect that after 5 days, one would be well enough to fly again.


I recommend that you pack a "covid preparedness" kit in your suitcase just in case. Basically whatever you would use to help you feel better if you have a bad cold - things like aspirin for headache, sinus decongestant, sore throat lozenges, cough syrup, neocitran, etc. You could also have some "alternative" supplements handy like zinc, Vitamin C, etc. and a thermometer. If you are feeling ill, you probably won't want to be running around to the drugstore looking for stuff.


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> Natural immunity is not durable. It fades after 60 days.


We do not share the same facts.


----------



## TomB16

Meanwhile, in China, we are seeing some social unrest around China's handling of the COVID lockdown in Shanghai. As they blow by 500K cases and probably a lot more infections, they are evicting people to turn buildings into quarantine facilities.

Watching video of hazmat suited police forcibly evict people from their homes is rough to watch. Time will tell if the small scale uprisings reflect more widely held views.

Of the people in Shanghai I know, all are aware that zero COVID is going to fail. These people use a VPN to get around national firewalls so they could be outliers. Still, at least a portion of the population knows zero COVID is a bad idea.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> If you think "Omicron is the ticket to relative safety" then why do you think there is a potentially "more severe variant" in the future?


Omicron is the least severe COVID19 variant we have seen. Minor variants of omicron all have similar, relatively low, severity.

Omicron and it's sub-variants have out-competed all other variants to the point we only have omicron. Omicron has saved lives compared to the situation we would have without omicron.


The building is on fire. It is going to be consumed. I don't want to jump out of a window but, since I have no choice, I am going to pick the window above a team of firemen holding a net. That net is omicron.


----------



## TomB16

BTW, fever reducing medications will reduce the body's immune response and also reduce survivability of the virus. They should be avoided, if possible.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Omicron is the least severe COVID19 variant we have seen. Minor variants of omicron all have similar, relatively low, severity.
> 
> Omicron and it's sub-variants have out-competed all other variants to the point we only have omicron. Omicron has saved lives compared to the situation we would have without omicron.


 ... this is hindsight at the moment. I was asking for your crystall-ball.



> The building is on fire. It is going to be consumed. I don't want to jump out of a window but, since I have no choice, I am going to pick the window above a team of firemen holding a net. That net is omicron.


 ... nice analogy but what if the firefighters haven't arrived yet? Or you're on the 20th floor at work (in a skyscraper) - let's see first where you're going to jump to. And don't tell me this isn't a possible scenario (just look at 9-11).


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> BTW, fever reducing medications will reduce the body's immune response and also reduce survivability of the virus. They should be avoided, if possible.


 ... and what? Burn up first?


----------



## Birder

TomB16 said:


> BTW, fever reducing medications will reduce the body's immune response and also reduce survivability of the virus. They should be avoided, if possible.


Actually, aspirin reduces inflammation and also reduces risk of a thrombotic event such as a blood clot. There is more than one study touting its efficacy for hospitalized covid patients.


----------



## TomB16

Aspirin does not improve survival chances for hospitalized Covid patients, British study finds


The cheap and widely-available drug aspirin does not improve survival for patients hospitalized with Covid-19, a U.K. study has found.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## TomB16

Meanwhile, in Tennessee, legislation has been passed to allow sales of over the counter ivermectin.

Ivermectin has to be the most politicized medication in history. I've never known another medication to trigger such myopic support or opposition.

Perhaps Tennessee will provide some additional data to support or prove irrelevant, it's use as an anti-viral. On the other hand, if a study of 160K Brazilians couldn't prove the efficacy of the medication, I'm skeptical that any amount of data will provide additional clarity on the issue.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> I would wear a mask in crowded indoor spaces but generally avoid them. Not sure I would go out of my way to attend a festival right now but I am not someone who likes a lot of noise.
> 
> From testing positive, or suspecting you are positive based on symptoms, you are supposed to isolate for 5 days, then wear a mask at all times in public for an additional 5 days. That is the guidance in Ontario.
> 
> I would say don't stress about it too much.


Thanks, appreciate the comments. One change I'm making to my plans is, I'll be using private taxis and Lyft instead of public transit. I used to love public transit, but I think it's an unnecessary risk currently in ON & QC.

I did not realize that the guidance was 5 days. Thanks!


----------



## james4beach

Birder said:


> I recommend that you pack a "covid preparedness" kit in your suitcase just in case. Basically whatever you would use to help you feel better if you have a bad cold - things like aspirin for headache, sinus decongestant, sore throat lozenges, cough syrup, neocitran, etc. You could also have some "alternative" supplements handy like zinc, Vitamin C, etc. and a thermometer. If you are feeling ill, you probably won't want to be running around to the drugstore looking for stuff.


These are great ideas, thanks. After you mentioned this I remembered I do have zinc throat lozenges in the cupboard, added some to my bag.

I think many of these are absolutely essential for travel: aspirin or tylenol, digital thermometer, etc.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> I think many of these are absolutely essential for travel: aspirin or tylenol, digital thermometer, etc.


Howard Hues used Mormon assistants during the final phase of his life. They are extremely reliable and trust worthy.

I have several Mormon friends and also find them to be exemplary people.


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> We do not share the same facts.


Feel free to share your alternative facts. Are you not aware of the many, many reinfections that have taken place? Haven't you, yourself, already had COVID twice in under 2 years?


----------



## TomB16

My facts are well researched with a critical eye for objectivity. They is plenty of datato support what I have written.

Yes, I have had COVID twice in exactly two years.


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> Meanwhile, in China, we are seeing some social unrest around China's handling of the COVID lockdown in Shanghai. As they blow by 500K cases and probably a lot more infections, they are evicting people to turn buildings into quarantine facilities.
> 
> Watching video of hazmat suited police forcibly evict people from their homes is rough to watch. Time will tell if the small scale uprisings reflect more widely held views.


That is because China is a much more policed and authoritarian state, and even they are having resistance to enforcing their COVID restrictions.
That's why we don't have them here, 
1. We don't accept that level of unwarranted government control as easily.
2. We lack the authoritarian infrastructure to do it (heck it was a national emergency to get some tow trucks).


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> BTW, fever reducing medications will reduce the body's immune response and also reduce survivability of the virus. They should be avoided, if possible.


Please cite evidence for that claim.

I believe that the data to support this is inconclusive at best.






Do medications that fight a cold’s symptoms prolong the cold? | BBC Science Focus Magazine


Washing down your cold and flu pills with hot honey and lemon might make you feel better in yourself, but it's probably not hurting the virus.



www.sciencefocus.com


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... and what? Burn up first?


I don't recall reading a single case of someone spontaneously combusting from a high fever.

Viral pneumonia is usually not treated, in most parts of the world. Doctors keep the patient warm and observe. Medicating to reduce fever reduces surviveability of the infection.

Suppressing the body's immune response is rarely a good idea. It is justified only in extreme cases.


----------



## james4beach

My understanding is that medicines which improve comfort, such as aspirin or Nyquil, are mainly useful because they help the person sleep.

Sleep is undeniably good for recovery. Suppressing some of those symptoms help a person get a continuous sleep,


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I don't recall reading a single case of someone spontaneously combusting from a high fever.


 ... no, but you can get organ(s) damage if your fever is 105 degrees plus or doesn't break after so many days like 3 days in a row. You would need to treat that fever. [Btw, you don't need to have a fever to "combust". For some unexplained reason(s), some humans self-combust. These belongs to the Ripley's Believe it or Not category.]



> Viral pneumonia is usually not treated, in most parts of the world.


 ... LOL ... hope this doesn't alarm you but the recommendation of my physician who practices "Western" medicine, namely licensed under CPSO, I have *also *been innoculated for "pneumonia", not once but TWICE. I don't think a MD outside NA would make such recommendation so I don't disbelieve you on this. In fact, my father (being of non-NA culture) would have let the fever runs its own course.



> Doctors keep the patient warm and observe. Medicating to reduce fever reduces surviveability of the infection.


 ... no, one of my siblings as a kid ran a fever that either won't break or was more than 104 degrees. Can't recall exactly which scenario but anyhow them doctors over the Sick Kids dunked him in ice-water to break that since they couldn't IV him either.



> Suppressing the body's immune response is rarely a good idea. It is justified only in extreme cases.


 ... what's an extreme case?

Now a days, if anyone has a flu and gets chills and fever, first thing they do is pop a Tylenol so that they can return back to work after 3 days as expected by the boss. This is a Canadian thing.


----------



## londoncalling

james4beach said:


> Thanks, appreciate the comments. One change I'm making to my plans is, I'll be using private taxis and Lyft instead of public transit. I used to love public transit, but I think it's an unnecessary risk currently in ON & QC.
> 
> I did not realize that the guidance was 5 days. Thanks!


I am not sure I follow your rationale on transportation. Are you indicating that private taxis or Lyft have stricter protocols around sanitation and cleaning, that they have less traffic or that you can select ones that do? I have no idea but would like to be aware of what is happening out there in the world. Most of my travel as of late has had me not needing to rely on alternative transportation as I had either my own vehicle or a rental.


----------



## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> I am not sure I follow your rationale on transportation. Are you indicating that private taxis or Lyft have stricter protocols around sanitation and cleaning, that they have less traffic or that you can select ones that do? I have no idea but would like to be aware of what is happening out there in the world. Most of my travel as of late has had me not needing to rely on alternative transportation as I had either my own vehicle or a rental.


These are good questions and thanks for bringing this up, because I want to think through this.

I think the Uber/Lyft things are likely quite filthy as well, however, the only people in this car are me and the driver. Additionally, I can open the window for some natural ventilation.

Compare that to public transit, which has dozens of people, and likely no air filtration or ventilation. To me it seems like the "taxi" is a safer way to go. COVID is mostly airborne so it's not a question of dirty surfaces, but about how many people you're sharing air space with. Public transit like subways are packed full of people...

More people = more COVID risk. The dirty surfaces probably make very little difference as long as you aren't touching your face.


----------



## Beaver101

^ "*More people = more COVID risk" *... bingo!


----------



## londoncalling

I would agree that single passenger public transportation would have lower concentration and better opportunity for air circulation. My experience with Lyft/Uber vs taxi has been mixed. I have had good and bad experiences with both as it pertains to hygiene protocols. Depending on time and location you can usually pass and take the next one.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> My understanding is that medicines which improve comfort, such as aspirin or Nyquil, are mainly useful because they help the person sleep.


I take cold medicine to suppress the symptoms. I know they don't cure the cold, I just want to be more comfortable.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... LOL ... hope this doesn't alarm you but the recommendation of my physician who practices "Western" medicine, namely licensed under CPSO, I have *also *been innoculated for "pneumonia", not once but TWICE.


Vaccines are not the same as infections.

Speaking of western medicine, who remembers when people would get a cold, go to the doctor, and get a prescription for antibiotics? We did a great job culturing antibiotic resistant strains of all sorts of crap while pretending to treat a virus which does not respond to antibiotics. That was oh, so many years ago.... no... wait... that took place until very recently and it wouldn't surprise me if it is still happening, here and there.

Western medicine both invented and perfected over-treatment of symptoms.


----------



## james4beach

The main problem with this idea of being careless, and catching COVID, is that there's evidence that the disease harms organs (heart, lungs, brain) in some cases. Each time you catch a COVID infection you're rolling the dice big time.

On top of that, COVID reinfections are happening (some times within just one month) because natural immunity, just like vaccine-induced antibodies, only seem to offer protection for 1-4 months.

So for the time being I think the most logical thing to do is continue to be cautious.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Vaccines are not the same as infections.


 ... of course, vaccines are not the same as infections nor can it substitute for natural infections such as flu, Covid nor pneumonia. At the same time you don't take shots (aka vaccines) for tetanus every year either.



> Speaking of western medicine, who remembers when people would get a cold, go to the doctor, and get a prescription for antibiotics? We did a great job culturing antibiotic resistant strains of all sorts of crap while pretending to treat a virus which does not respond to antibiotics. That was oh, so many years ago.... no... wait... that took place until very recently and it wouldn't surprise me if it is still happening, here and there.


 ... no, I don't recall getting an Rx for antibiotics to treat a "cold" in the past decade if not more so not sure which part of this country where you're talking about "it's happening" "here and there" and "recently" too. In fact, my physician says there's no real treatment for flus and colds, just symptoms which would include fever-reducing meds, dozy cough syrups, and lots of rest. And don't forget the annual flu shot if you don't want to end up in the hospital. 

Now it's obvious that if you get the sniffles, cold, flu or heaven forbids Covid, to bloody stay away from everybody aka ISOLATE (hopefully) unless you don't mind passing on your germs.



> Western medicine both invented and perfected over-treatment of symptoms.


 ... hey, Western medicine was developed from capitalism. Somebod(ies) has to get rich off the patient.


----------



## damian13ster

Then do it. Literally not a single person is stopping you from making a choice to be more careful. All the freedom to you


----------



## OptsyEagle

For many of the treatments of covid-19, you are unfortuneately going to have to follow the best opinion then the best facts. If these treatments were confirmed facts I am sure someone would have posted the finding on this board by now.

So my opinion on the matter is this. There is a big difference in my treatment of a cold then my treatment of covid-19, because a cold is not life threatening. The only thing that matters to me with a cold is feeling better. With covid-19, although feeling better is certainly going to be my 2nd objective, surviving is definitely going to be put ahead of that, into the 1st place position of priorities.

Fevers are an immune response to slow down the viral replication process. With covid-19 a fever is something to be nurtured, not stopped. I have stated before in my treatment process for covid-19 that any anti-fever medicines should be avoided unless your fever hits 104F or higher. So avoid Tylenol and Aspirin if you can. Which way you go will be your best opinion, but one where the results may have serious consequences for being wrong, so give it a lot more thought then what "feels" like the right answer. During your fever, getting rid of it will obviously feel like the right approach. I don't think it is.

Anyway, fevers are not as common with Omicron as it was with the other variants so the right answer is probably not as important anymore.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Then do it. Literally not a single person is stopping you from making a choice to be more careful. All the freedom to you


 ... not sure who you were responding to. Me or J4B or possibly both. 

Anyhow if it's me, then it's "Yo, you can bet I am doing everything possible to stay away from the lepers". 

Btw, how's them RATs coming along in stopping the pandemic and the opportunity to continue WFH?


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> For many of the treatments of covid-19, you are unfortuneately going to have to follow the best opinion then the best facts. If these treatments were confirmed facts I am sure someone would have posted the finding on this board by now.
> 
> So my opinion on the matter is this. There is a big difference in my treatment of a cold then my treatment of covid-19, because a cold is not life threatening. The only thing that matters to me with a cold is feeling better. With covid-19, although feeling better is certainly going to be my 2nd objective, surviving is definitely going to be put ahead of that, into the 1st place position of priorities.
> 
> Fevers are an immune response to slow down the viral replication process. With covid-19 a fever is something to be nurtured, not stopped. I have stated before in my treatment process for covid-19 that any anti-fever medicines should be avoided unless your fever hits 104F or higher. So avoid Tylenol and Aspirin if you can. Which way you go will be your best opinion, but one where the results may have serious consequences for being wrong, so give it a lot more thought then what "feels" like the right answer. During your fever, getting rid of it will obviously feel like the right approach. I don't think it is.
> 
> Anyway, fevers are not as common with Omicron as it was with the other variants so the right answer is probably not as important anymore.


 ...there's currently no treatment for deadly Covid other than 2 meds, meaning an experiment plus a prayer. 

Treatment for its symptoms (dependent on severity) would include those for the flu and cold (or maybe not) plus a ventilator if you end up in the hospital.


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> I don't recall reading a single case of someone spontaneously combusting from a high fever.
> 
> Viral pneumonia is usually not treated, in most parts of the world. Doctors keep the patient warm and observe. Medicating to reduce fever reduces surviveability of the infection.
> 
> Suppressing the body's immune response is rarely a good idea. It is justified only in extreme cases.


Some places did and still do perform surgery on infants without anesthesia. That's wrong too.

Yes viral pneumonia is normally not treated, because there aren't treatments, except some antivirals, which are only rarely used.

Painkillers don't really affect the underlying illness/infection, but they do make people more comfortable. 
Right or wrong, I would rather sleep, or at least not be in pain when I'm sick.

Secondly, when a fever hits 41°C, it is dangerous.


I again ask for any information to support this claim, which I believe is false, and have posted supporting links for that position,.
*"Medicating to reduce fever reduces surviveability of the infection." *<< This is an unsupported and likely false claim.

I do not think medical misinformation is acceptable on this forum. Specifically COVID disinformation is prohibited.


----------



## OptsyEagle

As I said, you are not going to get confirmed data, on either opinion, on the benefits or detriment of anti-fever medication, so one needs to use their own common sense. That said I suspect everyone's common sense will default to whatever they thought was correct, before this discussion, but I will add my opinion, all the same.

Fever's are a result of our immune system's response to infection. They start with chills, which is how your body raises its temperature and then when it gets to the temperature it wants to be at, the chills break and you now have a fever. I doubt our immune systems are putting us into fever mode for no reason at all. I suspect it does so to slow down the viral replication, buying us valuable time to create antibodies that will eventually neutralize the virus for good...and save our lives.

I agree 41C is too high, which is why 40C (104F) is my cut off. The good news is that most people with Covid-19, that had a fever, tended to stay below 40C. As long as it stays below 40C, I am going to hope it helps and not allow anything, like Tylenol or Aspirin, to get in the way of its valuable work. 

IMO the reason we tended to fight fevers, in the past, is because some infections of the past would create fevers that were deadly. "If only the fever would break" would be the prayer's said at their bedside, during many pandemics of the past, so when Tylenol was found to bring down fevers quickly, we swallowed them like candy. I believe that is a mistake. It is a natural immune response, so let your immune system do what it can to help. That is my opinion.


----------



## sags

Dr. Fauci says that herd immunity doesn't work.

Doctors are saying that being infected with covid can have long term damage to the brain from the inflammation.

People would be wise to treat a covid infection with Aspirin or Advil to combat the inflation.

Tylenol doesn't contain ibuprophen and has no positive effect on inflammation but is good for pain and fever.

You can take both Advil and Tylenol at the same time, but you have to be careful about the dosage of each.

One of the big problems for people who take a daily aspirin to protect against blood clots, is they cannot take ibuprophen for inflammation.

It means they don't have an effective treatment to reduce inflammation.


----------



## TomB16

The COVID19 numbers out of China show 5% growth in cases overnight and a 25% growth in anger and rage.


----------



## james4beach

This is a disaster. The US is not going to be able to enforce masks on airplanes.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/biden-mask-mandate-us-judge-ruling-1.6422855


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> This is a disaster. The US is not going to be able to enforce masks on airplanes.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/biden-mask-mandate-us-judge-ruling-1.6422855


Good. If the CDC doesn't have the legal authority to issue these mandates, they shouldn't be doing so.

Bad, because people really should be wearing masks in many areas. I'd like to say "wear a mask", but also allow for people to freely eat and drink.

Here in Ontario our numbers are climbing up, and they're delaying medical procedures. I still wear a mask, but it looks like 25-50% masking depending on where you are.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Responding to post #2241: I guess I get to save another year of US$ with a staycation in town. Woo-hoo!!!


----------



## sags

Over 1300 new covid hospital cases in Ontario, 202 in ICU units and 23 more deaths in the past 2 days..

We will soon be reaching maximum capacity for staffing the sick.

A month ago, the Ford government's doctor said there was a decline in virus activity.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Over 1300 new covid hospital cases in Ontario, 202 in ICU units and 3 more deaths.
> 
> We will soon be reaching maximum capacity for staffing the sick.


 ... Quebec's hospital is at 97% full as per 5 pm CP24 headline of today Monday April 18, 2022.

Let's see how fast Ontario can catch up ... remember 3,100 beds have to be filled as per father Ford with mother Elliott and uncle Moore.


----------



## sags

CP24 is reporting worse numbers. The numbers seem to be all over the map.

I don't think the Ford government is telling people the honest numbers, and people don't trust them anymore.


----------



## Money172375

I saw today that it’s estimated that 45% of people in Ontario got COVID since Dec 1. I know of quite a few, but my immediate family and parents have been spared. As have my in-laws and most of my friends. Two of them are teachers and I’ve been to 3 foreign countries in that time. Lucky? Safe practices? Immune? 

don’t know. Have a large funeral tomorrow and Wednesday to attend. Let’s see if my luck holds out.


----------



## sags

Our son avoided it until 2 weeks ago and then it hit the family. Weird that only half the family got it though.

Our son got it bad, their 14 year old son barely noticed he had it, and their 2 year old daughter had to see the doctor for fever and an inhaler.

I felt sick for a couple of days but tested negative on a fast test. I either had the flu or covid......chills, muscle aches, etc.


----------



## TomB16

I've come to the conclusion it is impossible for the vast majority of people to do nothing. People want to respond to every event with a wrote, knee-jerk, response.

I don't understand how so many people on this site are satisfied with the performance of their portfolios, given the balancing and changes that are made in response to macro factor changes. Perhaps it is just the vocal few and the silent majority are patient?

A few years ago, a physician buddy from Vancouver mentioned a small study in which people who took anti-fever medication for viral pneumonia had worse outcomes and lower survival rates than people who did nothing and just sweat through the fever. It was a revelation, at the time.

I don't present this as fact but the data I've read shows that doing less is almost always better. There have been other studies, as well. I want to say the last one I read was based in Italy, and done in the last five years or so.

Now, before you rev up that keyboard with the caps key taped down, notice I wrote "viral pneumonia" and not "bacterial pneumonia" which typically responds well to treatment.


Here is one such study from the American National Institutes of Health. Notice: They don't make an absolute conclusion.

*



7. Conclusions

Click to expand...

*


> NSAIDs are frequently used as a symptomatic treatment during lower respiratory tract infections (LRTIs) in adults and children, while neither clinical data nor guidelines encourage this use. Numerous observational series of CAP inpatients support a strong association between a pre-hospital NSAID exposure and a protracted and complicated course of pneumonia. These data should encourage experts and scientific societies to strongly advise against the use of NSAIDs in the management of LRTIs.


NSAID = Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (aspirin, etc...)
LRTI = lower respiratory tract infections

Quoted from: Risks Related to the Use of Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs in Community-Acquired Pneumonia in Adult and Pediatric Patients


Before you attack, consider the type of person who attacks anyone who says, writes, or cites something you don't want to hear or read. Is that the type of person you want to be? I'm happy to roll in the mud but I'm here for the purpose of sharing knowledge. I feel I'm doing my part and appreciate others who do the same, even if they do not share my point of view.

Have a great night.


----------



## james4beach

The federal judge who invalidated the airplane mask requirement was yet another one of Trump's questionable appointees. Bloomberg News mentions that she doesn't have the 12 years of experience to be rated as qualified...

*Mizelle, formerly an attorney with Jones Day, was the eighth federal judge confirmed during the Trump administration to be rated “not qualified” by the American Bar Association based on experience. *


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> CP24 is reporting worse numbers. The numbers seem to be all over the map.
> 
> I don't think the Ford government is telling people the honest numbers, and people don't trust them anymore.


 ... the message now has been "You're on your own" so what trust? With credibility fading away ... just in time for June 2nd.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> The federal judge who invalidated the airplane mask requirement was yet another one of Trump's questionable appointees. Bloomberg News mentions that she doesn't have the 12 years of experience to be rated as qualified...
> 
> *Mizelle, formerly an attorney with Jones Day, was the eighth federal judge confirmed during the Trump administration to be rated “not qualified” by the American Bar Association based on experience. *


 ... figures. So who challenges her, another monkey?


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I've come to the conclusion it is impossible for the vast majority of people to do nothing. People want to respond to every event with a wrote, knee-jerk, response.
> 
> I don't understand how so many people on this site are satisfied with the performance of their portfolios, given the balancing and changes that are made in response to macro factor changes. Perhaps it is just the vocal few and the silent majority are patient?
> 
> *A few years ago, a physician buddy from Vancouver mentioned a small study in which people who took anti-fever medication for viral pneumonia had worse outcomes and lower survival rates than people who did nothing and just sweat through the fever. It was a revelation, at the time.*
> 
> I don't present this as fact but the data I've read shows that doing less is almost always better. There have been other studies, as well. I want to say the last one I read was based in Italy, and done in the last five years or so.
> 
> *Now, before you rev up that keyboard with the caps key taped down, notice I wrote "viral pneumonia" and not "bacterial pneumonia" which typically responds well to treatment.*
> 
> 
> Here is one such study from the American National Institutes of Health. Notice: They don't make an absolute conclusion.
> 
> 
> 
> NSAID = Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (aspirin, etc...)
> LRTI = lower respiratory tract infections
> 
> Quoted from: Risks Related to the Use of Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs in Community-Acquired Pneumonia in Adult and Pediatric Patients
> 
> 
> Before you attack, consider the type of person who attacks anyone who says, writes, or cites something you don't want to hear or read. Is that the type of person you want to be? I'm happy to roll in the mud but I'm here for the purpose of sharing knowledge. I feel I'm doing my part and appreciate others who do the same, even if they do not share my point of view.
> 
> Have a great night.


 ... sharing your knowledge with those links are fine. But then those in bolded text - 1. your proclamation of your buddy physician doesn't actually help, and 2. so what's the treatment for viral pneumonia? How about bacterial pneumonia and then which type do you know you have if you don't get diagonosed (via x-rays, blood work, etc.) by a doctor in a "hospital"? And once you're in the there, I don't suppose the doctor is going to let you chill down and fever up. Or can your family physician handle a pneumonic case in his/her office?

And meanwhile you're expected back at work after 3 days so most people go and pop all those OTC meds to make the symptoms go away or so they can feel to be able to function and work. FIRE is a nice concept that's not considered an option for alot of folks in this country.

Hope this isn't considered an attack but merely pointing out the reality. I'll pull that article from the TO Star which stated the writer's position right at the start of the pandemic. * Working at all costs even it means infecting everyone else, particularly her students.* No wonder we haven't even achieved an endemic, let alone stopping a pandemic.

Here was that article dated Mon. March 9, 2020. In quote below is the gist of her "explanation" why she would not be staying at home sick even infectious. On re-reading, she has more than 1 job to attend to so she's hardly under-privileged.

Opinion | Why I won't stay at home when I'm sick



> _By Mandy Pipher Contributor, Mon., March 9, 2020, Toronto Star _
> ...
> _People in more privileged economic positions — including, I'm assuming, those responsible for telling the rest of us to stay home from work when we're sick — don't seem to truly understand what this means, so allow me to explain.
> 
> If I don't go to work, even for one hour, I don't get paid.* At one of my jobs (like many people in this economy, I have several) my weekly pay is contingent on me showing up to deliver a class in-person. This means that if I cancel class one week because I am sick, I get no pay for that week — even if I spend the rest of the same week grading papers and responding to student emails from home.*
> 
> Every missed hour is missed income that I am counting on to make basic ends meet. With contract work that ends at the end of each academic year, I have no guarantee that any lost income can be made up in the future. Showing up to work every day when I am scheduled to work is the only way I can pay rent and make my monthly student loan payments.
> 
> *And here's the kicker: I have good jobs. My contracts pay me a good hourly wage and have at least some unionization under which I am protected from real exploitation.* That's not the case for a huge number of workers — particularly people who work in service. A living wage at their multiple jobs is not something that exists for much of the working population — let alone job security, savings, and income buffers._
> ...


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> The federal judge who invalidated the airplane mask requirement was yet another one of Trump's questionable appointees. Bloomberg News mentions that she doesn't have the 12 years of experience to be rated as qualified...
> 
> *Mizelle, formerly an attorney with Jones Day, was the eighth federal judge confirmed during the Trump administration to be rated “not qualified” by the American Bar Association based on experience. *


Too bad. Elections have consequences. Do you remember when Obama proudly said that?

Biden recently nominated a judge with a long history of being extremely lenient to pedophiles and the Democrats voted unanimously to appoint her.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> The federal judge who invalidated the airplane mask requirement...


Was she legally correct? That's all that matters. Your feelings are irrelevant.


----------



## sags

My wife was an RN in the hospital and the remedy in our home for us and our son was cool showers to reduce the temperature, Tylenol for adults, Tempera for kids, plenty of fluids and a diet of popsicles, jello, and chicken soup if they were hungry. Lots of bed rest in a quiet room was also in order.

If it was a cold or respiratory problem......Vicks vapour rub placed under the nose and on the chest was effective.

It worked for us every time and nobody became more sick from the protocol.


----------



## sags

HappilyRetired said:


> Was she legally correct? That's all that matters. Your feelings are irrelevant.


The ruling was legal because the mandate was filed under a law about "sanitation".

The judge said there was no direct relationship between sanitation and masks.

The law can be changed and it may be, but it will take years to get it all done.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> CP24 is reporting worse numbers. The numbers seem to be all over the map.
> 
> I don't think the Ford government is telling people the honest numbers, and people don't trust them anymore.


Source?

Really those are pretty strong claims, and they're completely unsupported by the evidence you didn't even bother to cite.

Just for reference CP24 and The Ontario Gov are presenting the SAME data.
I think you like like to spread fake news.









Nearly 1,500 people are now hospitalized with COVID-19, the highest number since mid-February


Ontario reported one additional COVID-19 death on Tuesday, as the number of patients admitted to hospital with coronavirus continued to climb higher than numbers observed late last week.




www.cp24.com









COVID‑19


Find COVID‑19 (coronavirus) information and resources for individuals, employees, business owners and employers. Book a vaccine and stay up-to-date with public health advice.




covid-19.ontario.ca


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Over 1300 new covid hospital cases in Ontario, 202 in ICU units and 23 more deaths in the past 2 days..


1486 & 206 as of April 19th data





COVID‑19


Find COVID‑19 (coronavirus) information and resources for individuals, employees, business owners and employers. Book a vaccine and stay up-to-date with public health advice.




covid-19.ontario.ca







> A month ago, the Ford government's doctor said there was a decline in virus activity.


Yes, because a month ago there was a decline in virus activity.

Beyond you not liking Ford, do you have an actual point?
A month ago COVID was down, now we're in the next wave, which everyone knows is the likely pattern going forward.
Hopefully each wave will be less lethal than the previous, until it's something we can ignore, like pretty much every other Coronavirus out there.


----------



## Beaver101

^ What does it have to do with Ford? Don't the CMO have a job to do? No, wait ... he was working soooo hard last month in the DR (doing what IDK) that father Ford had to speak on his behalf.

June 2nd can't come soon enough for a "performance review".


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> The federal judge who invalidated the airplane mask requirement was yet another one of Trump's questionable appointees. Bloomberg News mentions that she doesn't have the 12 years of experience to be rated as qualified...
> 
> *Mizelle, formerly an attorney with Jones Day, was the eighth federal judge confirmed during the Trump administration to be rated “not qualified” by the American Bar Association based on experience. *


Judging decision on its merit is so 20th century!

Now we judge decisions based on the color, age, race, gender, and appointment process of the person making the decision.

Do you have any legal basis for questioning the legal decision or do you just smear the person behind it?

There is appeal process so I am sure it will be exhausted assuming there is any shred of reason to do so


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> Judging decision on its merit is so 20th century!


A judge who, when being nominated for the position, didn't even get the Bar Association's approval as she did not have enough years to qualify.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> A judge who, when being nominated for the position, didn't even get the Bar Association's approval as she did not have enough years to qualify.


Look at the merit of the decision, not who made it. 
Do you have any legal basis for questioning the decision?
Again, there is appeal process. If there is any shred of a chance that the decision can be overturned, the process will be exhausted.
Relax, don't slander people, and actually look at the legal basis for the decision. Do you have any legal knowledge on whether the mask mandate falls under jurisdiction of CDC? If not then keep quiet and don't slander, until you educate yourself on the subject.


----------



## sags

The judge had to perform legal somersaults to justify her decision.

She didn't say it was a bad law. She said a mask mandate didn't fit under the definition of "sanitation" in a public health safety law.

The world is removing mandates anyways, and people won't go back to wearing them again regardless of how bad it gets.

People convince themselves that bad outcomes only happen to "the other guy".


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... sharing your knowledge with those links are fine.


The whole post is fine. Go ahead and argue with yourself.


----------



## TomB16

China now at 630K documented cases while Shanghai is starting to seem like a potential humanitarian crisis.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> The whole post is fine. Go ahead and argue with yourself.


 .. of course it is, no different than from yourself.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> The judge had to perform legal somersaults to justify her decision.
> 
> She didn't say it was a bad law. She said a mask mandate didn't fit under the definition of "sanitation" in a public health safety law.
> 
> The world is removing mandates anyways, and people won't go back to wearing them again regardless of how bad it gets.
> 
> *People convince themselves that bad outcomes only happen to "the other guy".*


 ... yep, and time will tell.


----------



## TomB16

With 660K cases, it appears China has blinked and is allowing some people out of their homes in Shanghai.

I understand workers will be allowed to return to Tesla's Giga Shanghai plant but will not be allowed to leave for a while.

I really wish we were doing more to improve the global supply chain, instead of just complaining about it and waiting for China to restart. Somethings can be made competitively in North America, although I would expect any profitable manufacturing will be taxed into the middle ages. lol!


----------



## TomB16

Looks like roughly 4M Shanghai residents can leave their homes but with strict rules on gatherings, etc.


----------



## sags

Thank goodness we have "good" vaccines, Canadian genes, and the Liberal government is a lean, mean, covid fighting machine.

Justin Trudeau came through for us........he is a good provider.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Thank goodness we have "good" vaccines, Canadian genes, and the Liberal government is a lean, mean, covid fighting machine.
> 
> Justin Trudeau came through for us........he is a good provider.


Yes, he came through and spent most of the pandemic hiding in his cottage on vacation. That greatly helped the provinces take care of the problem.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Yes, he came through and spent most of the pandemic hiding in his cottage on vacation. That greatly helped the provinces take care of the problem.


 ... what do you expect him to further do when the premier of each province wants to dictate their own policies? Like healthcare is runned individually by each province?


----------



## james4beach

I've been in Toronto for a few days and now I can see why they have uncontrolled community spread here. My advice is... don't visit Toronto.

The taxi driver who picked me up from the airport asked me if it's OK if he doesn't wear a mask. It just shows the mentality. The guy is picking up strangers from a very busy airport and doesn't want to wear a mask?

It amazes me how reckless people are being in Toronto. I went into a business yesterday where none of the employees were wearing masks. One employee (in his office) could be heard periodically coughing/wheezing. No mask on him either. What's this a-hole even doing at work?

I've been in other stores where I've seen maskless employees sniffling and touching their noses. Many people seem to be visibly sick. For example I was asking a transit employee for directions, when she got into a coughing fit (inside her mask).

*Nobody who feels unwell, who is coughing or has a leaky nose, should even be going to work. That should be enforced by public health order!*

More generally about 70% of people wear masks, which is pretty good. But it's clear to me that certain workplaces have cultures of not being cautious. No doubt covid is powering through these workplaces. Even if the person doesn't catch symptomatic covid, they will take it home and infect their families.

What a filthy and reckless bunch of people. I hope they don't infect me while I'm here.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I've been in Toronto for a few days and now I can see why they have uncontrolled community spread here. My advice is... don't visit Toronto.
> 
> The taxi driver who picked me up from the airport asked me if it's OK if he doesn't wear a mask. It just shows the mentality. The guy is picking up strangers from a very busy airport and doesn't want to wear a mask?
> 
> It amazes me how reckless people are being in Toronto. I went into a business yesterday where none of the employees were wearing masks. One employee (in his office) could be heard periodically coughing/wheezing. No mask on him either. What's this a-hole even doing at work?
> 
> I've been in other stores where I've seen maskless employees sniffling and touching their noses. Many people seem to be visibly sick. For example I was asking a transit employee for directions, when she got into a coughing fit (inside her mask).
> 
> *Nobody who feels unwell, who is coughing or has a leaky nose, should even be going to work. That should be enforced by public health order!*
> 
> More generally about 70% of people wear masks, which is pretty good. But it's clear to me that certain workplaces have cultures of not being cautious. No doubt covid is powering through these workplaces. Even if the person doesn't catch symptomatic covid, they will take it home and infect their families.
> 
> What a filthy and reckless bunch of people. I hope they don't infect me while I'm here.


I think some places would need to shut down if sick employees stayed home. 3 schools in our region did that as they didn’t have enough staff. hospital capacity is ok at the moment. MOH says hospital numbers should peak next week.

i know you’re trying to avoid getting COVID at all….but I’m in the “it’s inevitable” camp…..and it’s inevitable way before better/more treatments are readily available.

it’s believed that 45% of Ontarians have had COVID since Dec 1….on top of the probably millions who had it before Dec 1. If you’ve had it before and lived, do you think most people will be cautious? Not saying all this right, but I think most people in Ontario are satisfied with where we’re at.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> I think some places would need to shut down if sick employees stayed home. 3 schools in our region did that as they didn’t have enough staff. hospital capacity is ok at the moment. MOH says hospital numbers should peak next week.
> 
> i know you’re trying to avoid getting COVID at all….but I’m in the “it’s inevitable” camp…..and it’s inevitable way before better/more treatments are readily available.
> 
> it’s believed that 45% of Ontarians have had COVID since Dec 1….on top of the probably millions who had it before Dec 1. If you’ve had it before and lived, do you think most people will be cautious? Not saying all this right, but I think most people in Ontario are satisfied with where we’re at.


 ...who's the "most people in Ontario" are satisfiied with where we're at? Those in the "inevitable" camp? Now you don't mind being a sheep? LMAO.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I've been in Toronto for a few days and now I can see why they have uncontrolled community spread here. My advice is... don't visit Toronto.
> 
> The taxi driver who picked me up from the airport asked me if it's OK if he doesn't wear a mask.* It just shows the mentality.* The guy is picking up strangers from a very busy airport and doesn't want to wear a mask?
> 
> It amazes me how reckless people are being in Toronto. I went into a business yesterday where none of the employees were wearing masks. *One employee (in his office) could be heard periodically coughing/wheezing. No mask on him either. What's this a-hole even doing at work?*
> 
> I've been in other stores where I've seen maskless employees sniffling and touching their noses. Many people seem to be visibly sick. For example I was asking a transit employee for directions, when she got into a coughing fit (inside her mask).
> 
> *Nobody who feels unwell, who is coughing or has a leaky nose, should even be going to work. That should be enforced by public health order!*
> 
> More generally about 70% of people wear masks, which is pretty good. But it's clear to me that certain workplaces have cultures of not being cautious. No doubt covid is powering through these workplaces. Even if the person doesn't catch symptomatic covid, they will take it home and infect their families.
> 
> *What a filthy and reckless bunch of people.* I hope they don't infect me while I'm here.


 ...* eew, eew, eew.*

Even I though live in Toronto, I second your advice NOT to visit Toronto at this time based on your experience which is unfortunate.

Not only Covid is a threat, the entire city (NEWS) has a gun, knife and assault problem nowadays. A shooting here there every day - along with random stabbings, and assaults (eg. pushing) on the public transit (subway). Just follow CP24 news website and you'll get the picture.

I know Tory is very content on continuing being mayor only of Toronto, serving the elites.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> My advice is... don't visit Toronto.


That's been my position since the 80's


----------



## Beaver101

^ And yet people continuously flock to Toronto, like flies attracted to a pile of xxxx. Why is it that?


----------



## Beaver101

Hospitals have delayed surgeries due to COVID-related staff absences, health minister says

These politicians sure know how to spin things ... until no prudent person believes him/her. That's why Elliott is moving off being MOH.

Oh, the musical chairs spin game will start again comes June 2nd.


----------



## andrewf

Beaver101 said:


> ...* eew, eew, eew.*
> 
> Even I though live in Toronto, I second your advice NOT to visit Toronto at this time based on your experience which is unfortunate.
> 
> Not only Covid is a threat, the entire city (NEWS) has a gun, knife and assault problem nowadays. A shooting here there every day - along with random stabbings, and assaults (eg. pushing) on the public transit (subway). Just follow CP24 news website and you'll get the picture.
> 
> I know Tory is very content on continuing being mayor only of Toronto, serving the elites.


Toronto is incredibly safe. I don't watch local news because it is just endless blah blah blah about isolated incidents. Toronto has lower violent crime rates than most cities in Canada and far lower than the US.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> Toronto is incredibly safe. I don't watch local news because it is just endless blah blah blah about isolated incidents. *Toronto has lower violent crime rates than most cities in Canada* and far lower than the US.


 ... that's good to know. But then I'm less impressed that crimes have creeped up in Toronto (or the used to be The Good) with daily reporting of "shootings". 

Where the hell do those guns aka criminals come from? Hell ain't self-bred /in-town as most citizens of Toronto are law-abiding. I grew up here so know. Back then you can leave your front-door wide open without any incidence/intrusions. Nowadays we got nothing but rampant porch pirates to start with. 

And there is the added burden of Covid these days.


----------



## andrewf

I don't care what the news reports--that is just anecdotes. It is not statistics.

You didn't have porch pirates growing up because you didn't have modern ecommerce. I have never had something stolen from my porch.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ...who's the "most people in Ontario" are satisfiied with where we're at? Those in the "inevitable" camp? Now you don't mind being a sheep? LMAO.


The majority. Majority of Ontarians support lifting COVID-19 restrictions but half still plan to wear masks in public: poll


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ^ And yet people continuously flock to Toronto, like flies attracted to a pile of xxxx. Why is it that?


Jobs


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> I don't care what the news reports--that is just anecdotes. It is not statistics.


 ... but don't the anecdotes make up the stats or are they just by-passed as "happens to someone else"?



> You didn't have porch pirates growing up because you didn't have modern ecommerce. I have never had something stolen from my porch.


 ... fair enough about the e-commerce with respect to porch pirates. But then how about just plain old thieves? Nothing stolen from your porch? How about a locked bike?

In case that's too fancy for you, how about brooms and even door mats? Yep, anything to help themselves getting their car out stucked after/during a snowstorm. One would think they got the proper equipments in their trunk in the first place for this purpose. Nope, they would rather go to someone's else porch and take whatever they see fit to get their car out.

And before you say, "oh, they were just borrowing it". I say " BS, did they return it/them stuffs." NO, SO THAT'S STEALING, THEM JACKASSES.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Jobs


 ... that's why I replied to MrMatt in an other post that his response is "funny" coming from him. He's a company man.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> The majority. Majority of Ontarians support lifting COVID-19 restrictions but half still plan to wear masks in public: poll


 ... let me put it this way - the "half" "majority" who plan to wear masks are not those in line with the other "half" "majority" in favour of lifting Covid19 restrictions - so soon.


----------



## Money172375

Sounds like 7th wave is inevitable….as is the 8th, 9th??









Another COVID-19 wave 'almost baked in' for the fall: top Ont. science adviser


The Ontario Science Advisory Table's Dr. Peter Juni said on Saturday that while Canadians need to be aware of an upcoming fall wave, there is hope for a 'honeymoon period' this summer as long as no new COVID-19 variants emerge.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Sounds like 7th wave is inevitable….as is the 8th, 9th??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another COVID-19 wave 'almost baked in' for the fall: top Ont. science adviser
> 
> 
> The Ontario Science Advisory Table's Dr. Peter Juni said on Saturday that while Canadians need to be aware of an upcoming fall wave, there is hope for a 'honeymoon period' this summer as long as no new COVID-19 variants emerge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca


 ... could be an "nth" wave until we achieve an endemic first and I don't see it happening anytime soon, let alone the pandemic ending.

From your link: 
_



... Dr. Peter Juni told CTV News Channel on Saturday that while Canadians need to be aware of an upcoming fall wave, there is hope for a "honeymoon period" this summer *as long as no new COVID-19 variants emerge. ..*.

Click to expand...

... _that's like "say a prayer" first ... LOLOLOLOLOLOL.


----------



## TomB16

Some folks think the pandemic COVID19 waves are likely to be greatly reduced, from this point forward. They predicted this at the end of December.

We will still have COVID but with smaller waves and substantially reduced loss of life.

China is still fertile ground for new strains of COVID so they might brew up another fresh batch of death juice.

For what it's worth, I think the group of physicians and statisticians who predict the bulk of the pandemic is probably over, are most likely correct. Time will tell.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Toronto is incredibly safe. I don't watch local news because it is just endless blah blah blah about isolated incidents. Toronto has lower violent crime rates than most cities in Canada and far lower than the US.


I agree, Toronto is safe (as long as you stay out of the bad neighbourhoods).


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> Some folks think the pandemic COVID19 waves are likely to be greatly reduced, from this point forward. They predicted this at the end of December.
> 
> We will still have COVID but with smaller waves and substantially reduced loss of life.
> 
> China is still fertile ground for new strains of COVID so they might brew up another fresh batch of death juice.
> 
> For what it's worth, I think the group of physicians and statisticians who predict the bulk of the pandemic is probably over, are most likely correct. Time will tell.


We are a fertile ground for new variants. Have you forgotten that COVID is replicating like wildfire here? If anything, we're selecting for vaccine-resistant strains that can succeed in our highly vaccinated population. Hence omicron.

There will be a fall wave, and it will place an incremental burden on the health care system. Time will tell if COVID-19 becomes benign eventually or is a persistent incremental seasonal disease burden that will require additional health care resources (or we just let old people die).


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> Have you forgotten that COVID is replicating like wildfire here? If anything, we're selecting for vaccine-resistant strains that can succeed in our highly vaccinated population. Hence omicron.


We currently have only omicron, in several minor versions. Omicron has choked out the more pathogenic variants.

I stand by my position as being the most likely outcome. Time will tell.


----------



## andrewf

There is nothing to say that all mutations tend toward less pathogenic traits. Lot of replication here is lots of opportunity for new variants, and it is possible that can turn to more harmful. Things are looking hopeful but that is not a reason to take our eye off the pandemic and be prepared for that eventuality. People should be at least mentally prepared for the possibility of some distancing measures being required next winter.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> There will be a fall wave, and it will place an incremental burden on the health care system. Time will tell if COVID-19 becomes benign eventually or is a persistent incremental seasonal disease burden that will require additional health care resources (or we just let old people die).


I worry about the fall/winter wave. The public doesn't seem to be practicing good hygiene and safe behaviours. Do we think everyone is going to suddenly become more cautious in November?

Our collective health would improve if we just consistently stuck with cautious and hygienic behaviours. This is also much easier to do, because things like masks are really very simple once you're in the habit of it.


----------



## TomB16

Shanghai allowed 4M people in Shanghai to leave their homes for work purposes, four days ago. That is exactly when Shanghai active cases peaked.

Suffice to say, I don't suspect any connection between the partial work release program and the active case peak.

Also, active cases in Shanghai are removed from their home and placed in a concentration camp (converted apartment buildings). Apparently, conditions are brutal. People seem to be scared of these conditions so I expect a high level of under-reporting.


----------



## like_to_retire

TomB16 said:


> Also, active cases in Shanghai are removed from their home and placed in a concentration camp (converted apartment buildings). Apparently, conditions are brutal.


Locked Down Shanghai Residents Scream From Apartments

ltr


----------



## sags

There is pandemic spread now in Bejing.

Chinese officials call the situation "urgent and grim"........whatever that means.

It don't matter none to us.......we having a party.









Beijing races to contain 'urgent and grim' Covid outbreak as Shanghai lockdown continues | CNN


Beijing is racing to track a Covid-19 outbreak that may have been spreading in the capital for a week, city authorities said over the weekend, raising the prospect more stringent restrictions could soon be implemented in line with other Chinese cities.




www.cnn.com


----------



## TomB16

ON Semi announced three days ago they are shuttering operations in Shanghai with that capacity to be picked up by Singapore and Manilla. ON Semi is a key electronics supplier to the auto industry and this is a response to an indefinite lockdown in Shanghai.









Onsemi halts operations at Shanghai distribution center


On Semiconductor (Onsemi) has notified customers in a letter that the company has to shut down its Global Distribution Center in China, while closely managing supply-chain disruptions caused by COVID lockdowns and restrictions in Shanghai and other major Chinese cities, according to industry...



www.digitimes.com


----------



## Beaver101

Mixing with unvaccinated increases COVID-19 risk for vaccinated people, study finds

Each person gets to decide for self.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> There is pandemic spread now in Bejing.
> 
> Chinese officials call the situation "urgent and grim"........whatever that means.


What it means that even in Chinas oppressive totalitarian police state, the people are starting to push back against the government policies.
There is nothing their ruling class fears more than opposition.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> Mixing with unvaccinated increases COVID-19 risk for vaccinated people, study finds
> 
> Each person gets to decide for self.


Well luckily, virtually everyone in Canada is vaccinated. We have one of the highest vaccination rates in the world.

These days I'm far more concerned about reckless vaccinated people who are overconfident.


----------



## Birder

Beaver101 said:


> Mixing with unvaccinated increases COVID-19 risk for vaccinated people, study finds
> 
> Each person gets to decide for self.


This study has no basis in fact. The author "*acknowledges that a simple mathematical model doesn't fully reflect the real world*". It contains no real data at all - just some hypothetical models. More of this "my vaccine won't work unless you also get vaccinated" bunk. Shame on the news media for promoting this divisive misinformation.


----------



## Beaver101

Birder said:


> This study has no basis in fact. The author "*acknowledges that a simple mathematical model doesn't fully reflect the real world*". It contains no real data at all - just some hypothetical models. More of this "my vaccine won't work unless you also get vaccinated" bunk. Shame on the news media for promoting this divisive misinformation.


 ... that's a disclaimer from the author whom you might want to contact along with the CMA Journal (bolded below) if you don't agree with it. Don't blame the news media for its "duty" in publishing this. They're merely doing their job.

As for the "divisiveness", it's up to you to believe it or not given social media (Twitter, FakeBook, IG, TickTock et al) is so prevalent anyways - cherry-pickings included also. 

_



... 
*The research published Monday in the **Canadian Medical Association Journal* found that vaccinated people who mix with those who are not vaccinated have a significantly greater chance of being infected than those who stick with people who have received the shot.

In contrast, unvaccinated people's risk of contracting COVID-19 drops when they spend time with people who are vaccinated, because they serve as a buffer to transmission, according to the mathematical model used in the study.

*Co-author David Fisman, of the University of Toronto's Dalla Lana school of public health, *said the message of the study is that the choice to get vaccinated *can't be thought *of as merely personal.

“You may like to drive your car 200 kilometres an hour and think that's fun, but we don't allow you to do that on a highway partly because you can kill and injure yourself, but also because you're creating risk for those around you,” he said in a recent interview.

Fisman said the idea for study came a few months ago amid the debate around vaccine passports and vaccine mandates.

Click to expand...

_


> ...


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Well luckily, virtually everyone in Canada is vaccinated. We have one of the highest vaccination rates in the world.
> 
> *These days I'm far more concerned about reckless vaccinated people who are overconfident.*


 ... yep, amongst us like stealth.


----------



## sags

Things are looking grim in the UK and locally we are having a big increase in hospitalizations and deaths.

Covid is still prevalent and spreading....even if some people have convinced themselves that it is over.


----------



## TomB16

UK is past their peak and looking good. Infections are down but still very high. Deaths are way down.

Curiously, Scotland continued masking and restrictions long past England and Ireland but they are tied with England for infection rate.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> These days I'm far more concerned about reckless vaccinated people who are overconfident.


I'm looking at booking a cruise in the next couple of days.

Seriously.


----------



## londoncalling

We continue to delay our travel plans. Would like to hop on a plane this summer but may delay till fall. At this stage the hesitation is not entirely Covid specific but more in regards to travel. Our house had a near Covid experience with a close contact last week. We spent a day providing child care to my niece and nephew for my SIL nurse. She was not feeling well for a few days the previous weekend but was antigen testing daily with negative results and was starting feel much better. She tested positive that evening. My wife fell ill the next evening but quickly recovered and has tested negative each day. The rest of the household has not tested positive nor been symptomatic. I really question the effectiveness of the antigen tests as it pertains to the most recent wave. Although test results have not indicated exposure I would say we are in the camp of Covid positive but not reported.


----------



## Beaver101

londoncalling said:


> We continue to delay our travel plans. Would like to hop on a plane this summer but may delay till fall. At this stage the hesitation is not entirely Covid specific but more in regards to travel. Our house had a near Covid experience with a close contact last week. We spent a day providing child care to my niece and nephew for my SIL nurse. She was not feeling well for a few days the previous weekend but was antigen testing daily with negative results and was starting feel much better. She tested positive that evening. My wife fell ill the next evening but quickly recovered and has tested negative each day. The rest of the household has not tested positive nor been symptomatic. * I really question the effectiveness of the antigen tests as it pertains to the most recent wave. Although test results have not indicated exposure I would say we are in the camp of Covid positive but not reported.*


 ... same here. That's why those RATs are now given away "free" to Ontarians as pre-paid by Ontarians, thanks to the generosity of the Ford's government.

I think if one has the flu, them RAT would test also "positive" and then next thing you know, Covid is only the flu!


----------



## sags

Quite a day today.

First our son called and said one of his kids has finally got covid and is feeling pretty sick. Our son had covid a week ago and isn't feeling well, so he thinks he might be re-infected. So far he is testing negative but another boy isn't feeling well either. His spouse works in daycare and hasn't been able to work for a month due to covid rotating through the family. They all got it from the schools.

He asks us to bring over some pizza, so we stop and pick it up and my wife is going to take in to their home, when she trips on her purse strap and falls face first into the pavement.

She has a big gash above her eye and it needs stitches, so I take her to the ER. The place is absolutely packed with people waiting. There is no room anywhere. Nobody but the patients are allowed to stay because there is no room, so I am waiting at home for her to call after she is treated.

The registration clerk tells her it will be quite a while before she even sees the triage nurse, let alone get treated. There is a long line ahead of her.

Out front there are 11 ambulances tied up waiting to offload patients to the hospital. They have to wait until they are triaged and it ties up 22 paramedics.

There are 6 police cars parked there as well, and a lady is screaming that she refuses to wear a mask. Security is getting frustrated with her antics.

People are telling her to shut up and grow a brain. This is a hospital with sick people in it and wear a damn mask.

If this is what the ER looks like now........heaven help there be a major accident or something. They are already overwhelmed and the covid wave is getting worse. Not only the hospital staff are overloaded, but all those ambulances and police are also tied up just sitting there waiting.

I don't know what the immediate solution is. but one thing I do know........

Doug Ford better figure out something and get some help for our hospitals because we aren't going to successfully limp through this forever.


----------



## sags

TomB16 said:


> UK is past their peak and looking good. Infections are down but still very high. Deaths are way down.
> 
> Curiously, Scotland continued masking and restrictions long past England and Ireland but they are tied with England for infection rate.


Past their "worst" peak is hardly something to celebrate, especially with reinfections rising.

With so many reinfections, it questions if immunity due to "herd immunity" even exists.

In our city.......3 new deaths reported.....2 people in their 60s....1 unnvaccinated and 1 with a double vaccination. 1 person in their 80s who was triple vaccinated.

If immunity isn't acquired by infection, and vaccinations don't provide lasting immunity........we are going to be back to the beginning or worse.


----------



## sags

From my post above......

_*Out front there are 11 ambulances tied up waiting to offload patients to the hospital.

They have to wait until they are triaged and it ties up 22 paramedics.*_

This seems to me to be indicative of poor structure in the health care system. Why does every ambulance and crew have to wait to unload patients ?

Why don't they have an area in the hospital to transfer the patients and leave one paramedic in charge of getting them offloaded to the hospital ?

All they need is some gurneys and an attendant...like the one who watches people do self checkout to make sure they aren't stealing in a grocery store.

The government needs to conduct a full study of the health care system every step of the way, eliminate the problem areas and get it fixed.

I would suggest they get an auto company........GM, Ford, Honda, Toyota........to look at the system and figure out "best practices" system.

Toyota may be the best choice, as the other automakers learned how to do things more efficiently from their model.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> Past their "worst" peak is hardly something to celebrate, especially with reinfections rising.


The majority of those documented cases are hospitalizations that tested positive, despite being in unaware of having COVID and being in for other issues.

To declare this a tragedy is "spin", to say the least.

China is in the same boat. The majority of their cases are asymptomatic.


----------



## Birder

You are absolutely right @sags. We definitely need some efficiency experts in to evaluate and re-engineer ER processes. Unfortunately, it has been a long time building - so I cannot blame Ford for it. I really don't understand why it is so bad. I have been to emergency at US hospitals before and you get triaged within minutes. No comparison to how poorly one is treated in our public health care system. Sorry to hear about your wife. Hopefully she recovers without too much of a scar and you can both laugh about it someday.


----------



## Birder

Deleted


----------



## james4beach

Birder said:


> You are absolutely right Sags. We definitely need some efficiency experts in to evaluate and re-engineer ER processes


When this pandemic started, I optimistically posted that finally the public might care enough about healthcare to put money into some serious work (I mean doctors, engineers, etc) for redesigning the hospital system. These hospitals still operate like they did a century ago and can be modernized so much.

Many of these logistical problems, but also issues of infectious disease spread, could be solved through some re-design. There's a lot about healthcare that can be overhauled. But it takes public will, and someone in government who has vision (and the ability to *think big*).

If there was a push for a massive project like that, I would happily drop what I'm doing and contribute to the effort to help improve one of society's most important resources. Many scientists and engineers would.

But not only are our politicians unable to think big... but MUCH worse... the public doesn't even care. The public barely seems capable of recognizing that we have a healthcare disaster on our hands, with nurses now entirely burned out from PTSD, suffering from never ending shifts but also the extreme stress (it's literally PTSD) of the last two years. _And yet the public doesn't care, won't even control their own behaviours._

@sags sorry to hear about this ER experience, sounds awful.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> When this pandemic started, I optimistically posted that finally the public might care enough about healthcare to put money into some serious work (I mean doctors, engineers, etc) for redesigning the hospital system. These hospitals still operate like they did a century ago and can be modernized so much.
> 
> Many of these logistical problems, but also issues of infectious disease spread, could be solved through some re-design. There's a lot about healthcare that can be overhauled. But it takes public will, and someone in government who has vision (and the ability to *think big*).
> 
> If there was a push for a massive project like that, I would happily drop what I'm doing and contribute to the effort to help improve one of society's most important resources. Many scientists and engineers would.
> 
> But not only are our politicians unable to think big... but MUCH worse... the public doesn't even care. The public barely seems capable of recognizing that we have a healthcare disaster on our hands, with nurses now entirely burned out from PTSD, suffering from never ending shifts but also the extreme stress (it's literally PTSD) of the last two years. _And yet the public doesn't care, won't even control their own behaviours._
> 
> @sags sorry to hear about this ER experience, sounds awful.


 ... but our MOH Idiott last week said everything is fine with the hospitals in Ontario. They, them hospitals can manage even with Covid spiking since the CPO acting as CMO told her so. The London area hospital(s) if not the main one (believe that's where sags is located) is a disaster as published a couple of days ago. 

Yesterday, the Idiott MOH also countered the other parties' pledge to increase the number of nurses and doctors in Ontario and saying they have already addressed this. Ie. the healthcare systems in Ontario is working great, Covid or not. Nothing to worry about - just have her head and eyes stucked in the sand. Afterall, she's out of there on June 2nd as MOH whilst the systems continue to break down. 

That's because we got a coward and a fake C"M"O whose full time job is primarily deflecting answers for Ford. Hell, Ford even suggested Ontario is not even close to half-filling those 3,100 hospital beds and he agrees. A gang of EFF-morons.


----------



## Beaver101

New variants will fuel COVID pandemic unless global vaccine rate rises: Gavi, UNICEF

New Omicron subvariant emerges in South Africa


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Quite a day today.
> 
> ...
> 
> Out front there are 11 ambulances tied up waiting to offload patients to the hospital. They have to wait until they are triaged and it ties up 22 paramedics.
> 
> There are 6 police cars parked there as well, and a lady is screaming that she refuses to wear a mask. Security is getting frustrated with her antics.
> 
> ....
> I don't know what the immediate solution is. but one thing I do know........
> 
> Doug Ford better figure out something and get some help for our hospitals because we aren't going to successfully limp through this forever.


It's been like this for at least the last decade at LHSC.
Bit unusual, but when I've been there they typically have 3-8 ambulances and 2-4 police cars.

Honestly the general population is willfully ignorant. They've been so for decades.

The Ford government had started some initiatives in LTC before COVID hit and derailed them. 
But pretty much every aspect of government is a mess, and it's really hard to clean up.

Also specifically in healthcare there have been chronic hiring freezes, so most departments are understaffed. Everyone talks about nurses and doctors and front line staff.
But the back offices are hurting even worse, some departments have less than 25% of their required staff, and because of COVID restrictions aren't able to hire and train replacements.


I think most Canadians just want to move past COVID and really aren't paying attention anymore.


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> From my post above......
> 
> _*Out front there are 11 ambulances tied up waiting to offload patients to the hospital.
> 
> They have to wait until they are triaged and it ties up 22 paramedics.*_
> 
> This seems to me to be indicative of poor structure in the health care system. Why does every ambulance and crew have to wait to unload patients ?
> 
> Why don't they have an area in the hospital to transfer the patients and leave one paramedic in charge of getting them offloaded to the hospital ?
> 
> All they need is some gurneys and an attendant...like the one who watches people do self checkout to make sure they aren't stealing in a grocery store.
> 
> The government needs to conduct a full study of the health care system every step of the way, eliminate the problem areas and get it fixed.
> 
> I would suggest they get an auto company........GM, Ford, Honda, Toyota........to look at the system and figure out "best practices" system.
> 
> Toyota may be the best choice, as the other automakers learned how to do things more efficiently from their model.


May-be they could get one of these companies to examine and change the entire hospital system . WE might save money and get better quality at the same time.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> It's been like this for at least the last decade at LHSC.
> Bit unusual, but when I've been there they typically have 3-8 ambulances and 2-4 police cars.
> 
> *Honestly the general population is willfully ignorant. They've been so for decades.*
> 
> The Ford government had started some initiatives in LTC before COVID hit and derailed them.
> But pretty much every aspect of government is a mess, and it's really hard to clean up.
> 
> Also specifically in healthcare there have been chronic hiring freezes, so most departments are understaffed. Everyone talks about nurses and doctors and front line staff.
> But the back offices are hurting even worse, some departments have less than 25% of their required staff, and because of COVID restrictions aren't able to hire and train replacements.
> 
> 
> *I think most Canadians just want to move past COVID and really aren't paying attention anymore.*


 ... which is it?


----------



## TomB16

Kamala Harris tested positive for COVID19, despite having no symptoms. More than half of COVID positive people have been unaware they have it.

COVID terrorists have shifted from "The sky is falling" to "The invisible spaceship is falling."

COVID caused deaths are extremely rare. People having COVID when they die is not all that rare. Statistics should be considered carefully, before assuming dire consequence.

It appears China will lock down Beijing, as they have Shanghai. This has caused panic buying and empty markets.

There is growing conspiracy theory (tm) suggesting the China lock-downs are based on a new, not yet revealed, virus and not COVID19. While possible and not out of character for China, I think it comes down to two possibilities: incompetence or malice. Incompetence seems far more likely to me. Summary judgement, broad ignorance, autocracy, over-reaction,... these are hallmarks of the human condition.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Totally agree with you on your Summary Judgement there - it's the "human" conditions. Only thing you're missing is the very "fundamental" one: SELFISHNESS.


----------



## TomB16

I just learned that China is still receiving direct flights from the US to the locked down city of Singapore. lmao!

San Francisco, Chicago, Newark, LA all have direct flights to Shanghai. Every one of these flights is near certain to import COVID19 into the lockdown zone.

So, they have locked down the city to the point it is a borderline humanitarian crisis, barricading people into their homes, but they are bringing in people from Covidistan? If ever there were an argument against autocracy....


----------



## Money172375

BREAKING: Denmark ends COVID vaccine programs - The Counter Signal


Denmark announced that they were suspending their national COVID vaccine program, becoming the first EU country to do so.




t.co


----------



## TomB16

Good for Denmark.

Current vaccines are less than 50% effective against omicron. If our vaccines were released today, they might not be approved as 50% is generally the minimum acceptable efficacy.

Denmark is shifting into a post pandemic posture, as they should. They have known the pandemic is most likely at an end for months. We still haven't figures it out.

Vaccines have been proven completely ineffective after 20 weeks, anyway.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> *I just learned that China is still receiving direct flights from the US to the locked down city of Singapore. lmao!
> 
> San Francisco, Chicago, Newark, LA all have direct flights to Shanghai. Every one of these flights is near certain to import COVID19 into the lockdown zone.*
> 
> So, they have locked down the city to the point it is a borderline humanitarian crisis, barricading people into their homes, but they are bringing in people from Covidistan? If ever there were an argument against autocracy....


 ... why not since only an idiotic business person will not hesitate to fly there. Brilliant! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL ...


----------



## TomB16

While I don't share chinas view on covid19 or human rights, I admire the country, its people, their work ethic, and what has been the most phenomenal and awesome socioeconomic shift of a billion people out of abject poverty to working class.

Not very many years ago, half of the rural population didn't have electricity and starvation wasn't all that rare.


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> Kamala Harris tested positive for COVID19, despite having no symptoms. More than half of COVID positive people have been unaware they have it.
> 
> COVID terrorists have shifted from "The sky is falling" to "The invisible spaceship is falling."
> 
> COVID caused deaths are extremely rare. People having COVID when they die is not all that rare. Statistics should be considered carefully, before assuming dire consequence.
> 
> It appears China will lock down Beijing, as they have Shanghai. This has caused panic buying and empty markets.
> 
> There is growing conspiracy theory (tm) suggesting the China lock-downs are based on a new, not yet revealed, virus and not COVID19. While possible and not out of character for China, I think it comes down to two possibilities: incompetence or malice. Incompetence seems far more likely to me. Summary judgement, broad ignorance, autocracy, over-reaction,... these are hallmarks of the human condition.


I am really scratching my head at what China is doing. It's a lot of pain and anger to inflict on pretty powerful and influential parts of the country to just posture about containing the virus. The lockdowns have been completely out of proportion to the level of risk.


----------



## zinfit

andrewf said:


> I am really scratching my head at what China is doing. It's a lot of pain and anger to inflict on pretty powerful and influential parts of the country to just posture about containing the virus. The lockdowns have been completely out of proportion to the level of risk.


5 cases in their capital today. 55 Deaths for the entire nation. It is hard for dictators to admitt mistakes.


----------



## sags

My wife got out of the hospital in 2 hours.......they said they "fast tracked" her because it was a simple matter of a few stitches.

Some of the ambulances had left, but the police were still there. She said they were dealing with people causing a commotion.

She also said the whiteboard said there was a 6 hour wait to see a doctor.

She could have gone to a clinic if we knew one that was open, but our experience has been to drive around and find them all closed and then end up at the hospital anyways. We need clinics that are open 24 hours, because it often isn't practical to Google to see what their operating hours are.


----------



## sags

Maybe China isn't reporting their actual numbers. They have a tendency to do that.


----------



## james4beach

Canadian provinces aren't really providing any useful COVID stats either. This article is about BC but it talks about how information reporting has pretty much failed, nationally.



> One of the most vocal critics of the government’s response to the pandemic pointed out the number of people hospitalized with COVID-19 has grown to levels on par with the Delta wave, but the public is largely unaware.
> 
> "B.C.'s public health advice is highly disconnected from the epidemiological situation, or at least from what we know about that situation," said Damien Contandriopoulos, a public health researcher and professor at the University of Victoria. “Restaurants are full, people are maskless, no masks in schools – so we are in a weird place in terms of the COVID situation because *we behave, as a society, as if COVID does not exist anymore, but our health-care system is really under huge amount of stress because of COVID."*


Provincial governments are failing in their duty to protect the public.

The hospitals are starting to get overloaded.









Modelling group stymied by B.C. data issues as experts warn of COVID-19 hospital crunch


As a growing number of British Columbians are hospitalized with COVID-19, the stream of pandemic data from the government has dried up to the point that some of the most trusted analysts in the province say they'll need to largely give up their work.




bc.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Beaver101

^ That's because the politicians (including the naturals and wannabees among us) are perpetuating the idea that "the public don't care, the pandemic is over (or some BS spin version of this))" when the "reality is" "every Joe/Jane Blow is on his/her own to deal and figure this out now." That's what's called realistic "job competency of the F minus grade" - paid by you and me.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Provincial governments are failing in their duty to protect the public.


How so?
What steps could they take that would have an impact.

I think they should have kept masking, but beyond that I simply don't think they would have been able to do much.



> The hospitals are starting to get overloaded.


Yeah, that's the way waves of a disease work.
It will cycle up and down for a while, you have to remember that our hospitals are overloaded even without COVID.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> How so?
> What steps could they take that would have an impact.
> 
> I think they should have kept masking, but beyond that I simply don't think they would have been able to do much.
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's the way waves of a disease work.
> It will cycle up and down for a while, you have to remember that our hospitals are overloaded even without COVID.


 ... I feel for your employer. Acceptance of a failing grade is considered an okay substitution for mediocrity, never mind about starting with a lie first. 

The latest number that Ford stated was Ontario has 3,100 beds of which I'm sure he pulled that number out from the derriere of his CMO and sidekick MOH.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> How so?
> What steps could they take that would have an impact.


For one, proper data collection, reporting and transparency. If we need more PCR test capacity, then get those running. The US certainly does it.

Next, routine press releases or media reporting using that accurate data. Tell the public what's going on. *Right now the public is clueless.*

If the trend is bad and if hospitals are overloaded (as they appear to be now), then need

mandatory masks
don't allow large public gatherings
capacity limits in restaurants
shut down the bars and nightclubs
You're saying that hospitals were overloaded anyway without covid, but I think you're forgetting that a huge number of nurses have suffered PTSD through all this and are still suffering, mentally. Things are not close to normal for them. They are going to continue to quit as their energy reserves are depleted.

If we don't protect hospital environments NOW, healthcare in Canada is going to get much worse over the coming years and yes, it's due to covid.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> For one, proper data collection, reporting and transparency. If we need more PCR test capacity, then get those running. The US certainly does it.


The data is reported and published, Ontario and BC have nice dashboards.



> Next, routine press releases or media reporting using that accurate data. Tell the public what's going on. *Right now the public is clueless.*


It's updated every day, (I think at 10:30am in Ontario).
The public is clueless because they don't care.



> If the trend is bad and if hospitals are overloaded (as they appear to be now), then need
> 
> mandatory masks
> don't allow large public gatherings
> capacity limits in restaurants
> shut down the bars and nightclubs


I think they'd have trouble pushing mandatory masks. They might have been able to hold on, but I think that's past.

The others, they can't do it, there simply is not enough public support. 

The current COVID is bad, but it isn't the same dangerous strain we had at the beginning.
Current estimates are that half the population has had COVID, and the deaths are falling to very low levels.

I think we should still wear masks, I still do (10-50% of the public seem to, depending on location), but I'm not putting my life on hold anymore.

When the death rate was 3% sure lock it down, take extreme measures, but now that even with millions of cases we only have a few hundred in ICU, and a few thousand in hospitals, and very few deaths, I just don't think it's justified.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> For one, proper data collection, reporting and transparency. If we need more PCR test capacity, then get those running. The US certainly does it.


Mississippi continued their e-fueled rave during omicron BA.1, causing a massive percentage of COVID cases and they have not had a BA.2 wave.

The point being, there is data to suggest the foundation of your argument is incorrect and further measures are just going to prolong the pandemic.


----------



## Beaver101

^ It doesn't matter how much or how little data is being produced to justify anyone's narrative especially we got the allusion (thanks to MrMatt) that the public doesn't give a crxp anymore. And no, it ain't the "restrictions" that're "prolonging" the pandemic. It's the open-gates policy where the contaminated viral air gets "shared" generously.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver, you are clearly someone who is distressed by reading or hearing any information which does not align with your point of view. No problem. Many act as you do. I'm not going to stop posting whatever I feel is appropriate but I do not do so to antagonize you. Mostly.

My question to you is, how have you assembled your portfolio? Do you sift through data and try to find companies and funds which based on objective criteria or do you go with your gut there, also?

Are you able to read and understand a P&L or income statement?

Do you continuously study the companies/funds and keep up with what they are doing and how they are performing?

Are you pleased with the performance of your portfolio?

There are legions of people who buy and sell equities based on "I think that is going to go up", and that's fine, but I would appreciate learning your approach.


Regards to you.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Why are you asking those questions in an Off Topic section even? And what do you care how I invest. The truth of the matter is I throw darts like everyone else (almost). This is (quickly) responding to the latter half of your post.

And now getting back to you on the first part of your post. If you think I'm "distressed" by reading any information that doesn't align with my POVs, then I think you need to get yourself a mirror first. For one, I've loosened up already for you by responding as per above. 

Now onto seriousness, why the need to throw out all those investment questions here? Are they appropriate? Do I need to answer them? 
Did I ask or cry for advice? Does anyone care? For one, I don't care if you or anyone don't. 

So by all means continue to whatever you feel is appropriate as I never said it wasn't. I just happen to not agree with the spins. I'll continue doing the same, being on an equal playing field.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ^ It doesn't matter how much or how little data is being produced to justify anyone's narrative especially we got the allusion (thanks to MrMatt) that the public doesn't give a crxp anymore. And no, it ain't the "restrictions" that're "prolonging" the pandemic. It's the open-gates policy where the contaminated viral air gets "shared" generously.


I also don't think it's true that the public doesn't care any more.

The business interests (tourism, restaurants but also officer operators) are *telling* us that "we don't give a crap any more". There is $$$ behind this.

This is being used to shape public opinion. There are plenty of people who still care, but the tone is being set by money interests... like bosses who want offices to look like normal.

The general public is easily influenced by the way.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I also don't think it's true that the public doesn't care any more.
> 
> The business interests (tourism, restaurants but also officer operators) are *telling* us that "we don't give a crap any more". There is $$$ behind this.
> 
> This is being used to shape public opinion. There are plenty of people who still care, but the tone is being set by money interests... like bosses who want offices to look like normal.
> 
> The general public is easily influenced by the way.


 ... exactly but some posters want others who don't share their same POVs to think otherwise known as the "spin=influence" ...like flatulence.


----------



## damian13ster

And they have been influenced and forced over past two years. But you ideologically agreed with it so supported using force. Now that people actually have a choice and majority doesn't choose to act the way you think they should - you have a problem with that. If you don't want to move on, live normally, and enjoy life to the fullest - don't. But don't start believing that you are somehow morally superior or you have ANY right to force your choices upon others. Data is readily available for those who want it. Those who don't care? That's their choice


----------



## damian13ster

Canada detects severe hepatitis of ‘unknown origin’ cases in kids. What is it? - National | Globalnews.ca


Nearly 200 children worldwide have developed sudden liver disease from an unknown cause, and experts are trying to find out why. Here's what is known so far.




globalnews.ca





While scientists are in the early stages of understanding the outbreak, it’s unclear why only children have been getting sick, Gutierrez said.

One theory going around is COVID-19 lockdowns may have weakened children’s immunity, because they were less exposed to common pathogens while in isolation.


----------



## sags

If someone has any data or evidence that shows this is the final wave of covid and all we have to do is tough it out for awhile.........please post it.

I think the rapidly spreading virus combined with rising re-infections provides more evidence of a more deadly variant lurking just over the horizon.


----------



## james4beach

I really am not too concerned about summer and I think we're likely OK. There will be waves and summer is not a deadly period, because people tend to have stronger immunity and are more resilient to infections.

The problem is next fall and winter. The business interests are pushing the country to stop trying, but the virus doesn't play by the same rules.

Once winter comes, respiratory infections (and COVID) will hit harder and it will be more severe. Natural immunity from prior infections wanes quickly and people become susceptible again in 1 to 4 months.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Why are you asking those questions in an Off Topic section even? [snip...]


Beaver, this web site is about matters finance. It was topical to ask if your COVID thought process matched your investing thought process. Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Best wishes to you in health and the markets.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Canada detects severe hepatitis of ‘unknown origin’ cases in kids. What is it? - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Nearly 200 children worldwide have developed sudden liver disease from an unknown cause, and experts are trying to find out why. Here's what is known so far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While scientists are in the early stages of understanding the outbreak, it’s unclear why only children have been getting sick, Gutierrez said.
> 
> One theory going around is COVID-19 lockdowns may have weakened children’s immunity, because they were less exposed to common pathogens while in isolation.


 ... how about the "theory" of kids not being exposed to the pathogens "due to their parents who can't be bothered with vaxxing their kids or don't believe in the vax themselves as anti-vaxxers", instead of blaming it on lockdowns. 

If you think for a moment by common sense, how can you lock down these kids when you can't even lockdown their parents? Duh.


----------



## Birder

Beaver101 said:


> ... how about the "theory" of kids not being exposed to the pathogens "due to their parents who can't be bothered with vaxxing their kids or don't believe in the vax themselves as anti-vaxxers", instead of blaming it on lockdowns.
> 
> If you think for a moment by common sense, how can you lock down these kids when you can't even lockdown their parents? Duh.


@Beaver, I am afraid I do not understand your logic. Perhaps you can clarify. If these children and their parents are anti-vaxxers and not really participating in lockdowns, then their immune systems would have been routinely exposed to these pathogens. What am I missing?


----------



## Beaver101

Birder said:


> @Beaver, I am afraid I do not understand your logic. Perhaps you can clarify. If these children and their parents are anti-vaxxers and not really participating in lockdowns, then their immune systems would have been routinely exposed to these pathogens. What am I missing?


 ... I mentioned "theory" not "my logic". Plus your "assumption" that these kids would have "routinely been exposed to these pathogens."? Just because the parents don't want their kids vaxxed (if not anti-vaxxers) doesn't mean the parents will purposely throw their kids out there to be exposed, let alone "routinely"? For one thing we're certain, these kids haven't been exposed - either naturally (maybe masked always?) or via vax. And I'm hard-pressed to believe the "non-exposure" was due to "lock-downs".

Let me provide you with an anecdote of another infectious disease. About a decade ago, I was travelling with my business partner, sitting elbow to elbow next to each other on a plane. Long story short, comes a week later - she came down with a swollen neck but nothing for me. I returned home seeking an answer from my physician, why was that? I was fine but she came down with the mumps and was quarantined. Short answer: I was vaxxed (most likely as I got every shot under the sun before being able to enter this country). I can only assume she didn't but didn't ask (as it wasn't my business). How she got the mumps, she recalled there was a kid passenger in front on the flight so you can add 1 + 1 equal to her story. Or my physician's answer - my vax saved my neck plus not being stucked in unfamiliar territory - thankfully it wasn't a hostile one.


----------



## james4beach

I ran into a couple hikers in their early 20s today, while we were all going up a mountain.

They told me they got covid and it was no big deal, just some sniffles. Well I think it's great news that 20 year olds with very strong heart & lungs have no problem with covid.

How about 80 year olds, or people with health problems?


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> Canada detects severe hepatitis of ‘unknown origin’ cases in kids. What is it? - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Nearly 200 children worldwide have developed sudden liver disease from an unknown cause, and experts are trying to find out why. Here's what is known so far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While scientists are in the early stages of understanding the outbreak, it’s unclear why only children have been getting sick, Gutierrez said.
> 
> One theory going around is COVID-19 lockdowns may have weakened children’s immunity, because they were less exposed to common pathogens while in isolation.


Seems unlikely. Maybe a complication of COVID infection?


----------



## james4beach

An American segment, but applies equally well to Canada. Our countries are failing to take the actions needed to mitigate (future) waves from becoming very severe.

I'll repeat again that we're probably OK this summer, but could get hit with a bad wave in the winter. I'm planning on getting my next vaccination dose in Sep or Oct with that in mind.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I ran into a couple hikers in their early 20s today, while we were all going up a mountain.
> 
> They told me they got covid and it was no big deal, just some sniffles. Well I think it's great news that 20 year olds with very strong heart & lungs have no problem with covid.
> 
> *How about 80 year olds, or people with health problems?*


 ... answer to your question: mentality is it's not their problem so what about them? As harsh as it sounds but that's the reality, even among the "healthy" seniors. The pandemic not only exacerbated this but validates true human nature even further.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> An American segment, but applies equally well to Canada. Our countries are failing to take the actions needed to mitigate (future) waves from becoming very severe.
> 
> I'll repeat again that we're probably OK this summer, but could get hit with a bad wave in the winter. I'm planning on getting my next vaccination dose in Sep or Oct with that in mind.


I'm currently not planning to get a fourth dose.

I don't think we know much about how these constant boosters work, and constant vaccinations/boosters may not be a good idea.








Repeated flu shots may blunt effectiveness







www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





I think I'll wait to see what happens in a country like Israel which is far ahead on this approach, also on Denmark which is going the opposite direction.


----------



## TomB16

I notice China's case numbers haven't changed in two days. They show right around 900K cases.

Meanwhile, video from Tesla's Giga Shanghai shows no construction, no production in the few minutes the video was rolling, not a soul anywhere in the neighbourhood, and not a single vehicle moving at GS or the neighbouring streets. It looks like a locked down factory to me, although they are reported to have some level of operational staffing.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... answer to your question: mentality is it's not their problem so what about them? As harsh as it sounds but that's the reality, even among the "healthy" seniors. The pandemic not only exacerbated this but validates true human nature even further.


You're right, society is shrugging and saying "so what about them?"

I am also hearing many people dismiss the COVID deaths as people with underlying health conditions. Well I've got news for you... a ton of people over age 60 have underlying health conditions. How many 60 or 70 year olds have high blood pressure?

How many 60 or 70 year olds have perfectly good lungs and hearts?

I really want our society to think harder about the vulnerability of ageing people. It's natural for everyone to develop some health problems as they age. That doesn't mean it's acceptable to just forget about their health as we tackle COVID. This is why I think many provincial governments are failing in their duty to protect the public.


----------



## damian13ster

Yes, keep telling children they are killing their grandparents - that will take care of anxiety!

What's your point with the 20 year old couple story? Were they not supposed to be on a trail? Were they supposed to lie when talking about effects the virus had on them? Why even talk about the virus if you don't want to know how others experienced infection?


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Yes, keep telling children they are killing their grandparents - that will take care of anxiety!


 ... calm down damian13ster. Sheesh, I was told I was being "distressed" with any POVs relating to Covid that doesn't align with mine's.

Ask yourself this first, which "normal" parent would be telling their kids that they're "killing" their grandparents 'cause them grandkids (and provided if them grandkids actually do "want") can't visit their grandpa & grandma? Wouldn't you as a "normal" "responsible" parent find something else to say even you've to fib it abit?

As for the "little" grandkids' (perceived) "anxieties", how about telling them to stay off their iphone or computer games for a day or so? Might help alleviate that - you know the typical phone blow back from the kids - but but but MaryJane or Johnny gets to go to the mall to have fun whilst I need to do the dishes for a change.

As for the "bigger" grandkids (perhaps like yourself), stay off social media (like this one) or take a walk/exercise for a change. Btw, aren't you supposed to be working, like for an employer at this time or do you do your work burning the midnight oil?



> What's your point with the 20 year old couple story? Were they not supposed to be on a trail? Were they supposed to lie when talking about effects the virus had on them? Why even talk about the virus if you don't want to know how others experienced infection?


 ... I think J4B was fine with their answer/experience for some 20 year olds ... not unexpected as being superficial and downplaying an "infectious" disease as any other. Just a flu. Simply put, lack of considerations for others. Nothing new I gather. Ie. We are ALL gonna die sometime.


----------



## james4beach

I'm happy that the 20 year olds did well with COVID, but we always knew that 20 year olds weren't affected much.

Imagine if we said, wer'e going to stop dealing with heart disease. Let's just shut down the parts of healthcare concerned with heart disease and heart surgery. It's just a waste of all our time and money.

Only old people get heart attacks! Screw 'em. And yeah occasionally someone younger will die of heart problems, but they had underlying health conditions anyway... sometimes people get unlucky. Screw 'em too!

Would that be acceptable, to take that attitude to heart disease?


----------



## damian13ster

Again, what is your point?
What is it that you suggest the 20 year olds do?


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> This is why I think many provincial governments are failing in their duty to protect the public.


I think the provincial government is doing what they can.
I am wearing a mask, and think that when possible we all should.

At this point where the data suggests most people have had COVID, and the risks of this strain are much lower, I'm not sure what measures you could consider appropriate.
No I don't support shutting down sports and recreational activities.

The number of people in Ontario hospitals is roughly flat for the last week, and looks like this peak (1600) is around half the January Omicron peak (3k),and this is with the restrictions effectively gone.
This is having an impact, but the actual risk is relatively low. I don't support widespread harsh restrictions, because they're really not warranted.


----------



## sags

Have masks only retail stores, and other places where people have to congregate out of necessity.

Pubs, restaurants, sports venues, strip clubs........people can make their own decisions.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Have masks only retail stores, and other places where people have to congregate out of necessity.
> 
> Pubs, restaurants, sports venues, strip clubs........people can make their own decisions.


There is no need to congregate in a retail store. Don't like it, don't go.

For government services, wear a mask.

I personally think it's silly not to wear a mask, unless you have a specific need not too. 
It's a trivial inconvenience for a small level of protection.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Hope Eder doesn't see your turning post. ..... "_It's a trivial inconvenience for a small level of protection_" ... but that's still muzzling!!!! LMAO.


----------



## Gator13

sags said:


> Have masks only retail stores, and other places where people have to congregate out of necessity.
> 
> Pubs, restaurants, sports venues, strip clubs........people can make their own decisions.


I believe retailers, restaurants, etc can still choose to require masks in their business. I was in a few places last weekend where masks were required. (Ontario)


----------



## james4beach

Check out this photo of luggage handlers at a cruise ship terminal. The workers protect themselves in head-to-toe medical equipment (*notice the KN95 masks + face shield + jumpsuit*) while the idiot tourists pretend COVID is over. (source)

Yup keeping believing the COVID threat is over!


----------



## TomB16

They look like the guys who water the plants at the terminal. They even carry a spritzer of EnviroGrow.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Check out this photo of luggage handlers at a cruise ship terminal. The workers protect themselves in head-to-toe medical equipment (*notice the KN95 masks + face shield + jumpsuit*) while the idiot tourists pretend COVID is over. (source)
> 
> Yup keeping believing the COVID threat is over!
> 
> View attachment 23127


 ... wow, and the caption under the pic says:



> _Luggage handlers disembark a* Holland America cruise ship docked in Vancouver.* More than 40 deaths were reported last week in people who tested positive for COVID-19. (Ben Nelms/CBC)_


 ... for a moment, I thought this was happening in China but apparently not as it's right in our own backyard of Vancouver. 

At least the officials over at Vancouver's Sea Port as well as the cruise line company are still on their toes taking the pandemic threat seriously for their employees. Not sure if they'll be sending "cleaners" up the cruise-ship for thorough sanitization though.


----------



## Beaver101

Gator13 said:


> I believe retailers, restaurants, etc can still choose to require masks in their business. I was in a few places last weekend where masks were required. (Ontario)


 ... that's correct as the Ford government left the "compliance" to the businesses themselves.

And many of these businesses are maintaining the mask requirement, if not the vaccine-proof. This is for the protection of their employees, if not the customers. And many of the customers are fine with this. Just common-sense and a show of respect for others.


----------



## Spudd

That pic is probably of the workers who deal with covid-infected people on board. I don't think all luggage handlers are dressing that way. I read cruise forums and apparently the standard procedure if you catch covid on board is that hazmat-dressed folks come and pick you up from your room. They fog the corridors behind you as they walk you to the quarantine cabin (probably what those sprayers are). I would presume they also bring your luggage with you on those dollies. If you're still covid-positive at disembarkation, they would disembark you through a non-public exit and bring your luggage along.


----------



## james4beach

Spudd said:


> That pic is probably of the workers who deal with covid-infected people on board. I don't think all luggage handlers are dressing that way.


Fair enough, but given how contagious COVID is, there's definitely going to be an ongoing problem in close-contact settings such as cruise ships.

What concerns me is these cruise ships and other infected tourists landing in my city and then wandering around my area. This is why I will be wearing masks all through summer in any shop or setting with strangers.


----------



## Spudd

james4beach said:


> Fair enough, but given how contagious COVID is, there's definitely going to be an ongoing problem in close-contact settings such as cruise ships.
> 
> What concerns me is these cruise ships and other infected tourists landing in my city and then wandering around my area. This is why I will be wearing masks all through summer in any shop or setting with strangers.


Oh, totally. I just don't think there's so much risk to the on-land baggage handlers that they would wear full hazmat. LOL.


----------



## james4beach

Spudd said:


> Oh, totally. I just don't think there's so much risk to the on-land baggage handlers that they would wear full hazmat. LOL.


Well they may be baggage handlers, but there are lots of passengers all over the place. They probably end up pretty close to passengers at times. I think any cruise ship passenger is pretty high risk so it's sensible for them to wear the full hazmat/ hospital gear if they are anywhere close to passengers.

Remember that all industries have a major problem with employees being out sick. It's because they are constantly catching covid. Same problem in hospitals... all the employees are catching covid, constantly. (A person can become reinfected in as little as 1-4 months by the way).

My guess is that the employer is requiring all these precautions to make sure the employees don't keep falling sick.


----------



## TomB16

A cruise ship isn't that much worse than the hotel we used in Mexico, the first few months of this year.

For a while, the entire floor had the same dry cough. I expect other floors were the same. Nobody died from COVID19. Nobody was even all that sick.

The danger came from neighbours who sat on their balconies and smoked while they were there. Fortunately for us, most of them went out into the community for most of the day so we just had to close our balcony door in the morning and evening when it got really gross.

The public's view on COVID seems to be either that it is made up "liberal mind control" or complete hysteria.


----------



## damian13ster

There is simple solution to shortages. Send employees home only when they are actually sick. No symptoms = work. Close contact = work. sick = dont work. Same as with any other virus out there with such extremely low hazard (in UK now the danger to individual is below flu for example, per their statistics)


----------



## sags

40 people dead from covid in a week on the cruise ship ?

I thought this variant was mild. Maybe they were all high risk and should have stayed home.......which doesn't bode well for the cruise industry.

Their bread and butter are older folks.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> 40 people dead from covid in a week on the cruise ship ?
> 
> I thought this variant was mild. Maybe they were all high risk and should have stayed home.......which doesn't bode well for the cruise industry.
> 
> Their bread and butter are older folks.


This post is a perfect example of why democracy is failing.......
Read the damn article and you would understand why your post is complete nonsense



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/covid-briefing-apr-28-1.6434833


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> 40 people dead from covid in a week on the cruise ship ?


I just did a search and can't find a recent cruise ship death. Please provide more information.


----------



## Money172375

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/why-covid-19-and-flu-could-be-in-a-tug-of-war-in-the-years-ahead-1.6436253


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> There is simple solution to shortages. Send employees home only when they are actually sick. No symptoms = work. Close contact = work. sick = dont work. Same as with any other virus out there with such extremely low hazard (in UK now the danger to individual is below flu for example, per their statistics)


 ... what "infectious" disease are you're referring to with your so-called "simple" solution to the shortages? Care to re-fresh the definition of "infectious" first - from a basic independent Webster-Merriam dictionary (which could be online) instead of your own version?

I gather you're still with the mind-set that "Covid is just the flu" despite claiming hysterically (aka freaking out) that you almost got killed from one of the "Covid vax" (meaning synthetic exposure to the virus). Amazing.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/why-covid-19-and-flu-could-be-in-a-tug-of-war-in-the-years-ahead-1.6436253


 ... and so what's the solution? Read and say to oneself "it only happens to someone else, too bad"?


----------



## sags

TomB16 said:


> I just did a search and can't find a recent cruise ship death. Please provide more information.


I was questioning the caption under the photo of the people in hazmat suits.........hence the ? mark at the end of the sentence.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> I was questioning the caption under the photo of the people in hazmat suits.........hence the ? mark at the end of the sentence.


 ... sags, if there were indeed 40 deaths on a "cruise" ship, I don't think Vancouver Port is gonna let them dock, let alone send their baggage handlers up (even in hazmat). It's adieu et bon voyage!

That's why I didn't comment on the #s there (only underlined and bolded the first sentence of the caption). Those "40 " (actually 42) deaths references "BC's Covid death numbers" in the past month. Only Ontario still gets to beat their #s by twice of that (by my "estimate").


----------



## zinfit

I tested positive for covid 15 days ago. The first couple of days were similar to the flu. I didn't test negative until day eleven. I question the 5 day isolation period for someone who tests positive. Until I test negative I feel I am still infectious.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> I tested positive for covid 15 days ago. The first couple of days were similar to the flu. I didn't test negative until day eleven. I question the 5 day isolation period for someone who tests positive. * Until I test negative I feel I am still infectious.*


 ... correct. As harsh as it is to say, with onset of "flu-like symptoms", you're positive - with infectious something.

This is not meant to be a political slant but that's why Ontarians are given "free from the government, paid by taxpayers" RapidATs which are as good as useless.


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> ... correct. As harsh as it is to say, with onset of "flu-like symptoms", you're positive.
> 
> This is not meant to be a political slant but that's why Ontarians are given "free from the government, paid by taxpayers" RapidATs which are as good as useless.


Based on the research I came across the rapid test isn't very reliable for mild cases . They are very accurate if you have the main symptoms. Once you have tested positive subsequent testing is quite accurate. I believe the Japanese researched this quite thoroughly and with the about scenecio the rapid tests were highly correlated to the PCR test.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> Based on the research I came across the rapid test isn't very reliable for mild cases . They are very accurate if you have the main symptoms. Once you have tested positive subsequent testing is quite accurate. I believe the Japanese researched this quite thoroughly and with the about scenecio the rapid tests were highly correlated to the PCR test.


 ... presuming you're correct based on those research that the RAT is very accurate for 100% Covid cases here. But what's the use if someone doesn't "isolate"? Especially there's no "mandate" to do so and the "(voluntary) requirement" is iffy? Because our political C"M"O (never mind about Ford and Elliott) says it's okay ... basically, the public is on its own in which case, we don't need a tussy-sitting MOH and CMO pretending they care. Their salaries can be put to better use elsewhere supporting the actual heros - frontline workers like doctors and nurses.

And then there's that not 100% certainty from those RATs- what's the use of that test if you can't tell the difference between a flu and "a mild case" of Covid? And then it's back to square one above if one tests 15 times (one per day) for a 100% Covid.

Merry go-around.


----------



## TomB16

China admits 1M cases but the narrative is they had zero cases outside the lock down zone in Shanghai, the other day. The city sprawls so the area around Shanghai probably has quite a few people.

Overall, it is clear they are looking for corner cases on which to declare victory so they are not in a good position. Meanwhile, their economy is taking a severe beating.


----------



## Birder

Meanwhile in BC, beware the booster!


----------



## TomB16

We are going to start seeing a lot more hospital cases for vaccinated and boosted people. The booster is only good for about 20 weeks of protection before it is completely useless so this is expected. The booster will provide good protection for a while, though.

You have to be careful with statistics. It would be easy to conclude the booster is useless by showing hospitalization rates from after the efficacy has worn off.


----------



## sags

Yup......after a couple of months, we can all assume we have no protection against Omicron, are highly likely to become infected, and can only hope to experience mild symptoms at home.

Fortunately, the doctors understand the virus better and have different treatments more effective to mitigate or avoid serious symptoms.

For example......reducing inflammation, blood thinners, and perhaps most important......not ventilating people unless absolutely necessary.


----------



## Birder

TomB16 said:


> You have to be careful with statistics. It would be easy to conclude the booster is useless by showing hospitalization rates from after the efficacy has worn off.


I agree that all numbers are suspect. The question is why are the boosted so much worse off? Shouldn't cases revert to the mean? If 51% are boosted and the booster has worn off, then only 51% of the deaths should be boosted folks.


----------



## TomB16

The UK statistics I've been following show the following:


reduced immunity for the first two weeks following a booster shot
20 weeks of increased immunity but it's only really high for about 4~5 weeks
22 weeks after the booster shot, infections are pretty much identical to the unboosted group.

We don't know much more than that because they just started boosting around the first of the year.

I doubt the boosted group is worse off after 22 weeks but time and data will shine light on this.


----------



## zinfit

the outcomes from those regions and countries who practised zero covid isn't very encouraging. A problem is most of their population hasn't been exposed to covid so the infection rates are going to be higher and more serious. The law of unintended consequences at work.


----------



## TomB16

As for data, some has value but you have to cull data that is unobjective (either sloppy or intended to disinform). The remaining data needs to be interpreted carefully.

I regularly see people quote stats of "COVID deaths" but that can mean two completely different things. In some areas of the world, they count COVID deaths as any death certificate with the word "COVID" on it, using a basic search. That's why much of the discussion has turned to current death rate compared to the 5 year average death rate. In New Zealand and Australia, the death rate has gone below expected for each of the last two years during COVID. Other areas, it is up but it is not nearly as elevated as the count of people who have COVID when they die.


----------



## TomB16

zinfit said:


> the outcomes from those regions and countries who practised zero covid isn't very encouraging. A problem is most of their population hasn't been exposed to covid so the infection rates are going to be higher and more serious. The law of unintended consequences at work.


For sure and we know COVID is going to be around for the rest of our lives so countries like China are going to have COVID panic for years to come.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> For sure and we know COVID is going to be around for the rest of our lives so countries like China are going to have COVID panic for years to come.


 ... which will ripple to the rest of the globe like NA with supply chain disruptions like where's my Tesla?!!!! or parts thereof. LMAO.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> The UK statistics I've been following show the following:
> 
> 
> reduced immunity for the first two weeks following a booster shot
> 20 weeks of increased immunity but it's only really high for about 4~5 weeks
> 22 weeks after the booster shot, infections are pretty much identical to the unboosted group.
> 
> We don't know much more than that because they just started boosting around the first of the year.
> 
> I doubt the boosted group is worse off after 22 weeks but time and data will shine light on this.


 ... in that case, the "1 shot to cover ALL Covids" is only a drooling dream.

I would be happy if they can keep up those boosters like the annual flu shot o/w mankind is screwed.


----------



## OptsyEagle

zinfit said:


> the outcomes from those regions and countries who practised zero covid isn't very encouraging. A problem is most of their population hasn't been exposed to covid so the infection rates are going to be higher and more serious. The law of unintended consequences at work.


You will almost certainly be better off getting infected by someone who has been previously infected then by someone passing on their initial infection to you. That is why I suggested that the healthy people among us do our country a solid and take off our masks so as to give a fighting chance to those among us who are not as healthy.

Wearing a mask in hopes that the virus just goes away is not helping you or anyone else. If you are more vulnerable, protect yourself until this current wave subsides and then you will have about the safest environment you are ever going to get, going forward. What you do in that environment I will leave up to you but my advice is to go on with your life as you did before.


----------



## Beaver101

^ If anyone is going to take your virological advice, be prepared to be miserable repeatedly. Could be every month or other via re-infections. I guess for the guys (those without the female anatomical parts), this might be a good practice.


----------



## Money172375

zinfit said:


> Based on the research I came across the rapid test isn't very reliable for mild cases . They are very accurate if you have the main symptoms. Once you have tested positive subsequent testing is quite accurate. I believe the Japanese researched this quite thoroughly and with the about scenecio the rapid tests were highly correlated to the PCR test.


Did you swab tongue, cheeks and nose?


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Did you swab tongue, cheeks and nose?


it might improve it, but the rapidtests still have an abysmal false negative rate for Omicron.
I know several people who had a positive case in their house, yet the other members didn't, even with PCR tests they were showing negative.
So something odd is going on.

I'm not going to launch into conspiracies, but I'm at the "wear a mask, live my live and hope for the best" stage


----------



## OptsyEagle

Nothing odd at all. The tests are working just fine. It is our observational abilities that are failing us. The test requires a certain level of viral load and too many people in Canada are so darn immune that it is difficult for Omicron to generate that high of viral load to achieve a positive result. How many test results do we need to determine that Covid 19 poses little danger to us anymore.

Covid is over. The people on this board that have not been following the trajectory of this pandemic really need to find a new cause to dedicate their attentions to. For the love of god would you please wake up to the current situation and start acting accordingly. I can understand the missing of the danger, but to miss the end of the danger, is kind of sad don't you think?


----------



## sags

Most people don't die from poison ivy, but only an idiot would want to get it.


----------



## TomB16

A stitch in time saves nine.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> Most people don't die from poison ivy, but only an idiot would want to get it.


I sometimes imagine you and James hiding under cushion forts behind your respective couches while Beaver is outside arguing with his neighbour over what day the garbage was picked up last week.


----------



## zinfit

TomB16 said:


> I sometimes imagine you and James hiding under cushion forts behind your respective couches while Beaver is outside arguing with his neighbour over what day the garbage was picked up last week.


Yes the best advice for Sags is to stay at home and not mix with anyone until Dr Fauci declares covid id dead.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> I sometimes imagine you and James hiding under cushion forts


I don't know if you mean hiding from covid risk (if that's what you mean). Actually I've been incredibly active throughout the pandemic. I've been out, in stores, just about every single day (even while many people were "locked down"). I've also been flying around the country through the whole pandemic.

There were times in 2020 when I was one of the only air travellers in this country. I know that because I walked through deserted airports and got onto empty planes.

But in case you don't understand why I keep talking about being cautious about covid:

I care about the well being of the elderly and, and those in poor health. It takes a society-wide effort (cooperation of people) to help protect the vulnerable. I'm willing to compromise some of my conveniences in order to protect the vulnerable. *And I'd want society to do the same for me, when I'm frail or elderly.*

If covid is still a big threat to vulnerable Canadians, then I think we ALL should still be careful, to keep covid levels at a manageable level.


----------



## damian13ster

So what you are saying is you were taking more risks than average person and you are scolding average person for taking risks?


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> So what you are saying is you were taking more risks than average person and you are scolding average person for taking risks?


I'm not taking more risks. My lifestyle is far *less risky* than the average person... but I work hard at that. If everyone behaved like me, there would be very little COVID circulating.

Being cautious and taking less risk doesn't mean one has to hide at home. That's my point.

For example, I just visited some friends and saw their young son. We all met outdoors only -- NO time indoors together. We all shared our situations and talked about whether we felt any symptoms (and we'd cancel if anyone had any symptoms). I took rapid tests daily, before and after the meeting. And a few days after the meeting, we communicated again to check if anyone got any symptoms.


----------



## Plugging Along

Birder said:


> Meanwhile in BC, beware the booster!
> 
> View attachment 23130





Birder said:


> I agree that all numbers are suspect. The question is why are the boosted so much worse off? Shouldn't cases revert to the mean? If 51% are boosted and the booster has worn off, then only 51% of the deaths should be boosted folks.


You need to look at the population behind the numbers and their risk factors along with behaviors.
Without going through a full analysis, here are some random considerations:

Cases - this number is not very reliable or representative of anything any more. Most of the testing is for very specific groups of people, in my province, primarily those in group settings, health care providers, etc. The testing no longer can be an indicator of population. 

Those with booster - there is biased because those who were first to get boosters are also those who are highest risk. They would be the first to have waning immunity too. 

At my mothers care home, there was an outbreak of over 50 people. There was one person who is currently in ICU. From what we know, that person was having so many issues that they probably were not going to be around long anyways. They hadn't had their 4th booster yet, as it was just being scheduled. 

I would just be careful on how stats are interpreted. If you find the stats that show the deaths by age group, vaccination rate, comorbidities, you will find that the vaccine is still effective against hospitalization, icu and death, not so much against infection.


----------



## Plugging Along

zinfit said:


> I tested positive for covid 15 days ago. The first couple of days were similar to the flu. I didn't test negative until day eleven. I question the 5 day isolation period for someone who tests positive. Until I test negative I feel I am still infectious.


You are lucky then. We have been told that one can test positive for up to 90 days, some more. Rapid tests at least 21 days. I was testing frequently after I had it, the health services and my mother care home told me not to. I actually tested positive almost 4 weeks after. A PCR test is even more sensitive. 



zinfit said:


> Based on the research I came across the rapid test isn't very reliable for mild cases . They are very accurate if you have the main symptoms. Once you have tested positive subsequent testing is quite accurate. I believe the Japanese researched this quite thoroughly and with the about scenecio the rapid tests were highly correlated to the PCR test.


I had symptoms and did not test positive for 6 days after wards. My kid was the sickest and didn't test positive for 7 days, my youngest hardly any symptoms, and showed positive earlier. (I posted extensively somewhere in this thread about the tests) I really depends on the viral load. 



TomB16 said:


> We are going to start seeing a lot more hospital cases for vaccinated and boosted people. The booster is only good for about 20 weeks of protection before it is completely useless so this is expected. The booster will provide good protection for a while, though.
> 
> You have to be careful with statistics. It would be easy to conclude the booster is useless by showing hospitalization rates from after the efficacy has worn off.
> 
> The UK statistics I've been following show the following:
> 
> reduced immunity for the first two weeks following a booster shot
> 20 weeks of increased immunity but it's only really high for about 4~5 weeks
> 22 weeks after the booster shot, infections are pretty much identical to the unboosted group.
> We don't know much more than that because they just started boosting around the first of the year.
> 
> I doubt the boosted group is worse off after 22 weeks but time and data will shine light on this.


It is showing that people who had Omicron early on in Dec & Jan, and are starting to get it again. The effectiveness against infection starts to wane at around 12 weeks. However, hospitalization and death rates have not spiked. Vaccinated even among those that only had 2 shots is showing lower death rates. 

I agree that the shots will not do much against infection, that was the hypothesis in December, but it still provides good protection against the severe outcomes.


----------



## sags

I am more concerned about the ripple effects of getting covid would have on my family members.

They would not be able to work, attend school or sports activities, and they have had enough of that already.

Life is not all about me.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I sometimes imagine you and James hiding under cushion forts behind your respective couches while Beaver is outside arguing with his neighbour over what day the garbage was picked up last week.


 ... no need to argue with the neighbours over which day the garbage was picked up since homeowners are provided with a calendar or now a schedule. Do you not get one in your ward?

However, you're correct I WILL ARGUE with anyone, lest catch a moronic neighbour who stuffs their garbage in my bin. Why do a jackass need to dump their garbage into someone else's bin when the street is littered with bins on garbage day PLUS permanent garbage bins along the major streets? Do I need to take out the waste & sewage bill for you?

And no need to imagine sags being housebound as not everyone can go joyriding in their wheelchair.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> Nothing odd at all. The tests are working just fine. It is our observational abilities that are failing us. The test requires a certain level of viral load and too many people in Canada are so darn immune that it is difficult for Omicron to generate that high of viral load to achieve a positive result. How many test results do we need to determine that Covid 19 poses little danger to us anymore.
> 
> *Covid is over. * The people on this board that have not been following the trajectory of this pandemic really need to find a new cause to dedicate their attentions to. For the love of god would you please wake up to the current situation and start acting accordingly. I can understand the missing of the danger, but to miss the end of the danger, is kind of sad don't you think?


 ... quick question for you OE, have you ever caught Covid?


----------



## OptsyEagle

Not yet that I know of, but that is not from any major effort in avoidance, these days, on my part.

We need to consider the fact that if I am correct in my opinion, that removing ones mask in short duration situations like most shopping outings etc., will result in a lower dose, more safer infection, it is highly likely that many of us non-maskers have already been safely exposed and we did not get sick enough for us to even know about it. What I call the perfect level of exposure.

Anyway, I just do what makes the most sense and adjust my behavior according to where the pandemic currently is at and see watch what happens after that. So far everything looks pretty good for Canada. Even if most healthy people continue to wear a mask, it should not delay the end of this wave too long, in my opinion. It may add a few extra hospitalizations, to them and a few others, but nothing to really worry about, from a pandemic point of view.


----------



## sags

Well if the virus continues to spread it will mutate again and possibly into a more dangerous variant.

That is something to worry about and a good reason to contain the spread as much as possible.

We need to eliminate this virus, as waiting around for a more dangerous variant to appear someday is foolhardy.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> Well if the virus continues to spread it will mutate again and possibly into a more dangerous variant.
> 
> That is something to worry about and a good reason to contain the spread as much as possible.
> 
> We need to eliminate this virus, as waiting around for a more dangerous variant to appear someday is foolhardy.


You forgot to explain how we eliminate the virus.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> But in case you don't understand why I keep talking about being cautious about covid:
> 
> I care about the well being of the elderly and, and those in poor health. It takes a society-wide effort (cooperation of people) to help protect the vulnerable. I'm willing to compromise some of my conveniences in order to protect the vulnerable. *And I'd want society to do the same for me, when I'm frail or elderly.*
> 
> If covid is still a big threat to vulnerable Canadians, then I think we ALL should still be careful, to keep covid levels at a manageable level.


I think being cautious is wise and considerate. My views have changed over the last couple of years. I take some precautions, but am no longer overly cautious. I usually wear a mask when I am with strangers or out and about inside, but am much less vigilant about it. I do wear n95s or level 3 surgical when I do wear them. I hand wash/sanitize and carry wipes more now. I test weekly at work and at my mom's and if I visiting with someone older I test ahead of time. Anytime I gather with someone, we discuss to make sure everyone is healthy. We went to our friends kid's bday the other day, my oldest had a cold and was getting over it (tested many times), so we left her at home. 

Other than these precautions, I have been on planes, my kids crowded competitions, restaurants, hockey games, gatherings indoors. My kids hang out with friends, and so do we now. 

I do not consider the current variant of Covid or the current situation as threatening as the beginning. The whole point of the precautions in the beginning were to flatten the curve to prevent our hospital system from being overwhelmed with people with covid and not being able to get treatment, and to buy time to develop better treatments so it wasn't such a death sentence for those are more vulnerable. We have done both.


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> I am more concerned about the ripple effects of getting covid would have on my family members.
> 
> They would not be able to work, attend school or sports activities, and they have had enough of that already.
> 
> Life is not all about me.


I am not sure what you are suggesting. If someone gets sick (covid or even a cold), you are right, they should not attend school, work or sport, or anything really. However, how does one not get sick? The only guarantee is that they reduce their contact with people which is not attending school, work, or school. If you are talking about masks and good hygiene, I totally agree. I am not sure what else you would suggest, because limiting contact activities in order to have activities requiring contact is quite circular. 




sags said:


> Well if the virus continues to spread it will mutate again and possibly into a more dangerous variant.
> 
> That is something to worry about and a good reason to contain the spread as much as possible.
> 
> We need to eliminate this virus, as waiting around for a more dangerous variant to appear someday is foolhardy.


As of right now, there is NO eliminate this virus. There may be more more dangerous, there may be less. What actions would you suggest would eliminate this virus?


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Well if the virus continues to spread it will mutate again and possibly into a more dangerous variant.
> 
> That is something to worry about and a good reason to contain the spread as much as possible.
> 
> We need to eliminate this virus, as waiting around for a more dangerous variant to appear someday is foolhardy.


Yes, that's how viruses work.

Remember the Coronavirus has been around for thousands of years, mutating again and again.
This time there was a more dangerous variant.

What is your plan to eliminate one of the more common and robust viruses in existence?
What about all the other viruses and other pathogens out there? What is your plan?

You can't sterilize the world, and even if you could, you wouldn't want to.


----------



## OptsyEagle

We need to open up our eyes to many observations and not just what some epidemiologist said today on the CP24 news channel, that is really just an overly cautious unscientific comment that might have been useful last year at this time, but not anymore.

Some of the observations I find more useful, above and beyond just the regular provincial stats, that tell me this pandemic is quickly changing for the better and pretty much fizzling out, is the following:

1) Take a look at Denmark. The first country to eliminate masks and most other precautions on February 1st. Their pandemic is virtually over.

2) Take a look at the other countries that had very poor compliance with precautions. How are they doing right now? Pretty darn good if you ask me.

3) In Ontario, the Science Table advisory group are estimating that around 45% to 50% of the people in Ontario have been exposed to Omicron since Dec. 1st, 2021. Now we all know a large number of people who have had covid-19, since then, but for those in Ontario, would you say that 1/2 of all your known acquaintances and family members have indicated that they have had it? I doubt it. Probably less then 10% of the people you know have said they have had a bout of Covid-19. So that means that 5 times the number are being exposed to covid-19, that don't even know they have it. That is a very good thing. Not being able to get a positive result from a rapid test is also a good thing in the overall context of obtaining safe exposure.

Anyway, I am just trying to point people in the right direction. I know "being cautious" sounds like the right approach. When crossing the street it always is, but with a virus, not as much. The longer you avoid the low dose exposures, the higher the chances are that you will get a much more dangerous high dose exposure when you are with family or friends, for longer periods of indoor time, without anyone wearing a mask. On that day, you will really wish you had of previously recovered from a low dose exposure, you obtained from a quick in and out of a retail store...and you will only get one of those if you take off your darn mask.


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> I do not consider the current variant of Covid or the current situation as threatening as the beginning. The whole point of the precautions in the beginning were to flatten the curve to prevent our hospital system from being overwhelmed with people with covid and not being able to get treatment, and to buy time to develop better treatments so it wasn't such a death sentence for those are more vulnerable. We have done both.


I agree with you generally but not entirely. The point of *extreme* measures like halting certain business was due to the healthcare system being completely overwhelmed.

But I think precautions are still needed as this is still a pandemic which has not yet entered a stable and predictable endemic pattern. There's a difference between precautions and extreme measures. The hospitals needed the extreme measures at one point, but they don't any more.

Ending extreme measures is fine but some degree of precautions are needed, because healthcare is not yet completely in the clear. We still have major COVID risks to healthcare today according to the experts I have been paying attention to.

The virus will become endemic and develop a predictable pattern, but we're not there yet. At this point in the game there can still be surprises.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> Not yet that I know of, ...


 ... figures. The "do as I say, not as I do".



> ... but that is not from any major effort in avoidance, these days, on my part.


 ... sure sure sure. And good for you for doing that. It shouldn't matter what anyone else does, does it?



> We need to consider the fact that if I am correct in my opinion, that removing ones mask in short duration situations like most shopping outings etc., will result in a lower dose, more safer infection, it is highly likely that many of us non-maskers have already been safely exposed and we did not get sick enough for us to even know about it. What I call the perfect level of exposure.
> 
> Anyway, I just do what makes the most sense and adjust my behavior according to where the pandemic currently is at and see watch what happens after that. So far everything looks pretty good for Canada. Even if most healthy people continue to wear a mask, it should not delay the end of this wave too long, in my opinion. It may add a few extra hospitalizations, to them and a few others, but nothing to really worry about, from a pandemic point of view.


 ... here we go again ... the "THEORY" from virological expert OptsyEagle of CanadianMoneyForum.


----------



## james4beach

For those who aren't aware: daily COVID *deaths* in Canada is averaging about what it was during November of 2020, which you might recall was a pretty bad point in the pandemic.

That was in the middle of cold & flu seasons, and currently we're in spring. The daily death rate is pretty high and some experts still think we're generally under-counting COVID deaths.

There has been less attention lately, and less media reporting but deaths are very high and continue.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I agree with you generally but not entirely. The point of *extreme* measures like halting certain business was due to the healthcare system being completely overwhelmed.
> 
> But I think precautions are still needed as this is still a pandemic which has not yet entered a stable and predictable endemic pattern. There's a difference between precautions and extreme measures. The hospitals needed the extreme measures at one point, but they don't any more.
> 
> Ending extreme measures is fine but some degree of precautions are needed, because healthcare is not yet completely in the clear. We still have major COVID risks to healthcare today according to the experts I have been paying attention to.
> 
> The virus will become endemic and develop a predictable pattern, but we're not there yet. At this point in the game there can still be surprises.


 .. the hospitals' (at least in Toronto) Covid protocols remain as stringent or as restrictive. I say good. And if anyone don't like that policy, don't use it or go fix your ownself.


----------



## james4beach

An example of deaths happening over 2 weeks. I just pulled up the latest BC report and the one from two weeks ago. Here are the new BC deaths in the last two weeks.

Age 30-39: 3 new deaths
Age 50-59: 3 new deaths
Age 60-69: 8 new deaths
Age 70-79: 9 new deaths
Age 80-89: 26 new deaths
Age 90+ : 37 new deaths

Those death levels are very significant over age 60. Remember that everyone is vaccinated in BC.

I realize people have become numb to deaths (this was inevitable) but these daily death rates are still very high, nationally. Someone over age 60 who's socializing a lot, hanging out indoors with many people, is playing with fire.

If you're going to socialize indoors, I would wear a mask, even with friends and family.


----------



## sags

That is a lot of deaths for a population of only 5 million people spread out over 945,000 square kms for a density level of 4.8 per square kilometer.

I believe that science must and will find a way to eliminate the virus, because otherwise we will be left in a very precarious position to infinity.

It is a fact that the virus is producing mutations, and the odds are that our luck will run out and sooner or later a highly dangerous mutation will occur.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> That is a lot of deaths for a population of only 5 million people spread out over 945,000 square kms for a density level of 4.8 per square kilometer.
> 
> I believe that science must and will find a way to eliminate the virus, because otherwise we will be left in a very precarious position to infinity.


I agree that this is a lot of deaths for such a small population. But the situation is steadily improving with time. It's not hopeless... death rates are declining. Personally though I don't yet think they are low enough for us to "let our hair down".

It's trending in the right way but IMO we still need to be very careful these days.


----------



## sags

In the last couple of days, scientists and researchers are concerned about a pair of new mutations.......BA4 and BA5.

They are more able to evade immunity and re-infect people. The current variation is NOT a mild virus, as it only appears to be against effective vaccines.

As the vaccine immunity does degrade quickly, we are going to need future vaccinations and restrictions to hold back a tidal wave of infections.

The new BA4 and BA5 mutations are already being detected in the US. People should face the reality and forget all that "herd immunity" nonsense.

_Two new strains of COVID that appear to be more transmissible than even “stealth Omicron,” and that have the ability to evade antibodies from vaccination and prior infection, have arrived in the U.S.—and they could mean a new wave is coming.

BA.4 and BA.5—like the original Omicron, BA.1—originated in South Africa. *Cases are surging there despite the fact that almost all South Africans have been vaccinated or had COVID, Bloomberg reported last week. *The country's National Institute for Communicable Diseases reported nearly 4,000 new infections on Sunday alone. Of those who were tested for COVID, 22% received positive results. The World Health Organization initially recommended levels of below 5% for communities wishing to reopen after COVID's first wave._









Two new Omicron variants detected in the U.S. could spark another COVID wave. Research shows these people will fare best


The new spawns of Omicron sweeping South Africa and have arrived in the U.S.




fortune.com













New Omicron Sub-Variants Can Dodge Immunity, May Trigger Wave: Study


Two new sublineages of the Omicron coronavirus variant can dodge antibodies from earlier infection well enough to trigger a new wave.




www.ndtv.com


----------



## TomB16

Odds James has had COVID: 100%
Odds Beaver has had COVID: 80%


----------



## sags

_They will never cure the virus_..........is a defeatist attitude.

People said the same things about polio, tuberculosis, smallpox, diptheria and a host of other diseases and health problems.

I wore eyeglasses from age 5 and at age 60 had cataract surgery that replaced the lens with new ones and I have perfect vision now.

I was awake, it was painless, and I was out of the hospital the same day.

I had to take Warfarin "rat poison" for decades to protect against a stroke caused by chronic atrial fibrillation. I had to get my blood checked constantly.

A few years ago, they put me to sleep, inserted a wire up my leg artery and zapped my heart to stop all the erratic pulse signals.

I didn't want to do it, but the doctor said he would have his own mother do it in a heartbeat. No more atrial fib and no more rat poison

Look at how far dentistry has evolved. Anyone can have a perfect Hollywood smile now if they can afford the cost.

Never understate the progression of science, if they are given enough funding to find a solution to a problem.

I think they will find a cure for this virus, because future world economies depend on it.


----------



## TomB16

It probably isnt wise to hold your breath waiting on a respiratory virus cure.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Odds James has had COVID: 100%
> Odds Beaver has had COVID: 80%


 ... you're off on your guess for me. It's 110% that I got Covid around 2008 thanks to inconsiderate reckless me, myself, and I slobs around me.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> _They will never cure the virus_..........is a defeatist attitude.
> 
> *People said the same things about polio, tuberculosis, smallpox, diptheria and a host of other diseases* and health problems.
> 
> I wore eyeglasses from age 5 and at age 60 had cataract surgery that replaced the lens with new ones and I have perfect vision now.
> 
> I was awake, it was painless, and I was out of the hospital the same day.
> 
> I had to take Warfarin "rat poison" for decades to protect against a stroke caused by chronic atrial fibrillation. I had to get my blood checked constantly.
> 
> A few years ago, they put me to sleep, inserted a wire up my leg artery and zapped my heart to stop all the erratic pulse signals.
> 
> I didn't want to do it, but the doctor said he would have his own mother do it in a heartbeat. No more atrial fib and no more rat poison
> 
> Look at how far dentistry has evolved. Anyone can have a perfect Hollywood smile now if they can afford the cost.
> 
> Never understate the progression of science, if they are given enough funding to find a solution to a problem.
> 
> I think they will find a cure for this virus, because future world economies depend on it.


 ... they (the "real" scientists) may not be able to eliminate the virus from this planet but can certainly eradicate the diseases ... eg. the (bolded list) is the proof.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> For those who aren't aware: daily COVID *deaths* in Canada is averaging about what it was during November of 2020, which you might recall was a pretty bad point in the pandemic.
> 
> That was in the middle of cold & flu seasons, and currently we're in spring. The daily death rate is pretty high and some experts still think we're generally under-counting COVID deaths.
> 
> There has been less attention lately, and less media reporting but deaths are very high and continue.


That is good news. As I said, it does not take long to find the observations that this pandemic is getting significantly less deadly. Compared to the number of infections for the two time frames you mentioned, I would say those death rates are looking as good as we could ever hope for, considering the health of our citizens.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I believe that science must and will find a way to eliminate the virus, because otherwise we will be left in a very precarious position to infinity.


What are you basing this on?
We've been doing flu vaccinations for decades, and it's simply a cat and mouse game with the dominant strain.
I expect we will have a similar pattern to Coronaviruses as we have for Flu viruses.



> It is a fact that the virus is producing mutations, and the odds are that our luck will run out and sooner or later a highly dangerous mutation will occur.


It did.

We've had this virus for millennia, and guess what, we after thousands of years some highly dangerous mutations occurred.

You're acting like coronaviruses are some new thing that just happened. They've effectively "always been here" as far as humanity is concerned.
You've likely caught dozens of coronaviruses. 

This is nothing new, or exception, except the some of the recent strains are a bit more dangerous.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> _They will never cure the virus_..........is a defeatist attitude.
> ....
> 
> People said the same things about polio, tuberculosis, smallpox, diptheria and a host of other diseases and health problems.
> ...
> 
> I think they will find a cure for this virus, because future world economies depend on it.


Trying to find a cure for coronavirus is literally like trying to find a cure for the "common cold". (I am being literal here, a good number of colds are caused by coronaviruses)

Why don't we have a cure for the flu?

You're playing with naive optimism. I'd like a cure/elimination of this problem, but I want a lot of other thing.

But just as in 2020 I said I'm not holding out for a vaccine to magically end this, I'm not holding out for a some other magical end. The more likely path is COVID19 will end up like the flu, something we can mostly ignore.


----------



## OptsyEagle

By the way, if you want to get a little more sensitivity out of your BTNX rapid tests one thing I noticed that could help is this:

In the instructions, with respect to step 1.2 they offer a choice for adding the reagent liquid into the extraction tube. They say you can either:

1) Empty the entire contents of the buffer vial into the extraction tube
or
2) Add 10 drops from the buffer vial to the extraction tube.

I suspect they came up with these instructions to deal with a population of various ages and abilities but when one considers what is happening here one can probably figure out that #2 above, is by far the best approach.

When I added my 10 drops there was still reagent material left in the vial that I discarded. If that was added to the extraction tube it would have diluted how many virus particles was in the 3 drops that I eventually applied to the sample well of the test device. So for example, if 5 drops had of remained in the discarded vial, but instead I added them to the extraction tube, I would have diluted my sample by 33%...or put another way, I would need to possess a 50% higher viral load to get the minimum amount of virus to result in a positive test signal. Since we want to know, as soon as possible, if we possess active infectious virus, diluting the amount we do have is not going to help us achieve that goal quicker...it will delay it.

I hope that makes sense.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Trying to find a cure for coronavirus is literally like trying to find a cure for the "common cold". (I am being literal here, a good number of colds are caused by coronaviruses)
> 
> Why don't we have a cure for the flu?
> 
> You're playing with naive optimism. I'd like a cure/elimination of this problem, but I want a lot of other thing.
> 
> *But just as in 2020 I said I'm not holding out for a vaccine to magically end this, I'm not holding out for a some other magical end. The more likely path is COVID19 will end up like the flu, something we can mostly ignore.*


 ... no, that's NOT what you said in 2020 or 2021 for that matter.

If I recall correctly, you remarked (actually insisted/claimed/bawling) the vaccine experts (or our politicians since that's your specialty)* SAID* " the vaccine is gonna to end the pandemic" and here we are still stucked with the pandemic.

I'm guessing it's a change of mind now as a defeatist as well as someone continuously "assuming" Covid is ... just the "flu". It's only behaving just like the "flu", only due to a less deadlier strain currently.


----------



## TomB16

I hope we continue to mask on commercial aircraft forever.

We probably wont because it causes people to freak out beyond reason but it was nice to fly and not end up with a respiratory infection immediately following. I'm happy to be mask free in the rest of the world.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> I hope we continue to mask on commercial aircraft forever.
> 
> We probably wont because it causes people to freak out beyond reason but it was nice to fly and not end up with a respiratory infection immediately following. I'm happy to be mask free in the rest of the world.


I'm with you there man. I used to get colds almost every time after I flew around in the winter (definitely between Nov - Feb).

But I recently completed a 5 hour flight (adding airport time more like a 10 hour trip) on a fully packed plane, from super busy YYZ, and didn't have so much as sinus congestion or sniffles in the following days. Amazing. Those masks work.

My favourite mask for air travel is still the Vitacore CAN95, and some friends of mine say the CAN99 is more comfortable for them.


----------



## sags

The virus can be eliminated.

The scientists will develop something that kills the virus on sight.

Maybe it will be tiny computer chips in our bodies that shoots the virus with death rays.

It will be called.........The Terminator.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The virus can be eliminated.


Not likely.



> The scientists will develop something that kills the virus on sight.


Yeah, bleach exists.

Hoping they'll get rid of COVID is like hoping a single vaccine would end it.

Neither is supported by the current understanding of this virus.


----------



## sags

That is why they want to expand their understanding by getting all the information from the Chinese lab where it was manufactured.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> I agree with you generally but not entirely. The point of *extreme* measures like halting certain business was due to the healthcare system being completely overwhelmed.
> 
> But I think precautions are still needed as this is still a pandemic which has not yet entered a stable and predictable endemic pattern. There's a difference between precautions and extreme measures. The hospitals needed the extreme measures at one point, but they don't any more.
> 
> Ending extreme measures is fine but some degree of precautions are needed, because healthcare is not yet completely in the clear. We still have major COVID risks to healthcare today according to the experts I have been paying attention to.
> 
> The virus will become endemic and develop a predictable pattern, but we're not there yet. At this point in the game there can still be surprises.


I am at the point where I think precautions should be followed by individuals, especially if they are in contact with the vulnerable, however, I don't know if government mandated ones still apply. Some of them just don't really make sense to me any more.  I don't think that Covid presents the same dangers as it first did. 

I am curious on what measures you would recommend or are following now.


----------



## Plugging Along

OptsyEagle said:


> By the way, if you want to get a little more sensitivity out of your BTNX rapid tests one thing I noticed that could help is this:
> 
> In the instructions, with respect to step 1.2 they offer a choice for adding the reagent liquid into the extraction tube. They say you can either:
> 
> 1) Empty the entire contents of the buffer vial into the extraction tube
> or
> 2) Add 10 drops from the buffer vial to the extraction tube.
> 
> I suspect they came up with these instructions to deal with a population of various ages and abilities but when one considers what is happening here one can probably figure out that #2 above, is by far the best approach.
> 
> When I added my 10 drops there was still reagent material left in the vial that I discarded. If that was added to the extraction tube it would have diluted how many virus particles was in the 3 drops that I eventually applied to the sample well of the test device. So for example, if 5 drops had of remained in the discarded vial, but instead I added them to the extraction tube, I would have diluted my sample by 33%...or put another way, I would need to possess a 50% higher viral load to get the minimum amount of virus to result in a positive test signal. Since we want to know, as soon as possible, if we possess active infectious virus, diluting the amount we do have is not going to help us achieve that goal quicker...it will delay it.
> 
> I hope that makes sense.


It does make sense, except the reason there are two sets of instructions is because there are two versions of the BTNX tests. One form of the kit has the individual vials (that most people got) for the individual or 5 pack kits, the other form of the kit is in bulk with a bottle of the drops. If you measure, the drops on the come from the bulk kit are slight larger than then drops from the individuals. It's actually works out to close to the same. If one is looking to increase in concentration, lightly blowing your nose, then swabbing the back of the throat, cheeks, and nose will give the optimal load along with squeezing the swab after it's been put in the solution. It is hit a miss was the rapid test though.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Plugging Along said:


> It does make sense, except the reason there are two sets of instructions is because there are two versions of the BTNX tests. One form of the kit has the individual vials (that most people got) for the individual or 5 pack kits, the other form of the kit is in bulk with a bottle of the drops. If you measure, the drops on the come from the bulk kit are slight larger than then drops from the individuals. It's actually works out to close to the same. If one is looking to increase in concentration, lightly blowing your nose, then swabbing the back of the throat, cheeks, and nose will give the optimal load along with squeezing the swab after it's been put in the solution. It is hit a miss was the rapid test though.


Sounds like they are doing the same thing they do when I buy a new toaster oven. They give me one manual that covers 4 or 5 different models of toaster oven instead of one that just covers the model I bought. lol You would think they would take a little more care with a medical test but I suppose they don't see any difference.

Anyway, hopefully everyone understands the issue and does what will give them the best result. Thanks for the reply.


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> .. the hospitals' (at least in Toronto) Covid protocols remain as stringent or as restrictive. I say good. And if anyone don't like that policy, don't use it or go fix your own-self.


 ... or better yet,* pay out of pocket* for these quacks located in Ontario. It's a "free" country after-all.

Ontario doctor accused of ‘disgraceful’ COVID conduct has been suspended

_



By Lex Harvey, Toronto Star Politics Reporter, Tue. May 3, 2022

Patrick Phillips, a northern Ontario doctor and a director of an organization found by the Star to be prescribing the debunked COVID-19 cure ivermectin, has had his medical licence suspended under an interim order, the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario said Tuesday.

Phillips is one of three listed directors of *Canadian Covid TeleHealth Inc., an organization that prescribed and sourced ivermectin to an undercover Star reporter for hundreds of dollars.

Canadian Covid Telehealth is affiliated with the Canadian COVID Care Alliance, a group known for spreading anti-vaccine misinformation and promoting unproven COVID-19 treatments, such as ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine.*

In a joint email response to questions from the Star at the time, Canadian Covid Telehealth directors, including Phillips, and Canadian Covid Care Alliance co-founder Ira Bernstein, said their telehealth practitioners had helped “hundreds of patients access prophylaxis and treatments” including, but not limited to, ivermectin. 
...

On Tuesday, the college also referred new allegations against Christopher Hassell, a Richmond Hill physician who was suspended from practising medicine in January.

Among other things, Hassell is accused of spreading COVID-19 misinformation, inappropriately providing medical exemptions, and “inappropriate management of patients in relation to COVID-19 treatment and prevention, including prescribing, and provision of inaccurate and/or misleading information to patients in relation to COVID-19.”

*Hassell runs Angel’s Heart Medical with Phillips. Angel’s Heart, which describes itself as “caring physicians and a network of allied healers,” was started in 2020, according to its website, after Phillips first faced sanctions by the medical regulator.*
...

Click to expand...

_


----------



## james4beach

This new UK study shows that some people with severe COVID cases experience lingering cognitive decline, similar to 20 years of ageing.

It's not in all cases of course, but was studied among severe cases (hospitalized). There were 46 patients in the study, and they were looked at 6 months after infection. The people hospitalized with COVID were found to have slower brain functions, verbal reasoning difficulty. *On average the decline was equivalent to impairment of brain function over 20 years of ageing.*

Good news is that there was a slight improvement seen after 10 months, so maybe it's not permanent.

Correlation does not show causation though. It's possible that people who were in declining health were also the most susceptible to severe COVID. It's very hard to be clear on exactly what process is happening here, but it's still noteworthy.









Covid hospitalisation may affect thinking similar to 20 years of ageing


Some people experience lingering cognitive decline, with degree of impairment linked to illness severity




www.theguardian.com


----------



## damian13ster

To be fair, those who are afraid of their own shadow, and those who overdose on the media in the past 2 years have also shown significant cognitive decline


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> To be fair, those who are afraid of their own shadow, and those who overdose on the media in the past 2 years have also shown significant cognitive decline


 ... to be even fairer, the trollers here don't even need Covid to have been possessed with significant cognitive decline.


----------



## Plugging Along

OptsyEagle said:


> Sounds like they are doing the same thing they do when I buy a new toaster oven. They give me one manual that covers 4 or 5 different models of toaster oven instead of one that just covers the model I bought. lol You would think they would take a little more care with a medical test but I suppose they don't see any difference.
> 
> Anyway, hopefully everyone understands the issue and does what will give them the best result. Thanks for the reply.


The instructions are all the same for the singles, 5 pack and bulk 25. It's interesting, I had access to the different tests they giving in the US and UK at first, and the instructions are slightly different between each kind in terms of where to swab, how long, how deep, how to 'squish' out the nose juice, etc. I think I do a combo of all of them now.


----------



## TomB16

Suddenly, blowing my nose in the shower doesn't seem so undignified.


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> Suddenly, blowing my nose in the shower doesn't seem so undignified.


I'm a runner, I've seen more than a few snot rockets.


----------



## TomB16

The UK has done a study which shows 99% of the population has some form of immunity from infection/vaccine/hybrid.



Coronavirus (COVID-19) latest insights - Office for National Statistics




Meanwhile, the Whitehouse is pushing Paxlovid as though we know it helps people with immunity.


----------



## Plugging Along

TomB16 said:


> Suddenly, blowing my nose in the shower doesn't seem so undignified.


Nah. Just don’t blow it too hard if you are getting ready for a rapid test. Anything in a more solid form doesn’t get squished through the dropper. 

cant say I ever worry about being dignified in a shower.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> The UK has done a study which shows 99% of the population has some form of immunity from infection/vaccine/hybrid


People with previous exposure can still get sick again. Reinfection is possible whether or not there are antibodies.

Immunity to COVID seems to last between 1-4 months, then people can get sick again. It's happening to quite a few people and I'm already hearing, anecdotally, from friends who are going through their second ones.


----------



## james4beach

The WHO estimates that 15 million people have died globally due to COVID, either directly or indirectly.

This is based on "excess deaths" and includes people who died of other causes because they couldn't get normal healthcare for other conditions.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> This is based on "excess deaths" and includes people who died of other causes because they couldn't get normal healthcare for other conditions.


I get a sense this is a significant factor. There are reports of poor countries where COVID came to town and people started dying of curable conditions like appendicitis and pneumonia that went untreated because of COVID policy.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> I get a sense this is a significant factor. There are reports of poor countries where COVID came to town and people started dying of curable conditions like appendicitis and pneumonia that went untreated because of COVID policy.


For sure. A friend of mine was in Indonesia and caught dengue fever in 2020. It seemed very serious, he couldn't eat at all, could barely move and described it as some of the worst pain he's ever felt.

He dragged himself to 2 different hospitals which both rejected him! They refused to look at him and sent him home. He ended up finding a private doctor, who came to his house and hooked him up to an IV and monitored his condition, watching for hemorrhaging. He could have been in serious danger if he had not been able to afford a private doctor (I think he also bribed the doctor).

Another close call was my friend's uncle in Winnipeg. He suffered a stroke and ended up in the hospital. Part way through his care, they booted him out of the usual ward because they had to make space for COVID patients. It sounds like his quality of care for the stroke suffered due to hospital load for COVID.


----------



## sags

Covid exposed the underlying problems with our healthcare system, nothing has been done to change that and nobody seems to care.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Covid exposed the underlying problems with our healthcare system, nothing has been done to change that and nobody seems to care.


 ... more than just an exposure - the "nothing has been done" is the key by those who are in charge and can do something about it.

This just came up today or published yesterday May 5, 2022:

Bring back mask mandates, 3 medical officers of health write in letter to Ontario's top doc



> _Published Thursday, May 5, 2022
> 
> Three local medical officers of health have written a joint letter to Ontario's top doctor, asking him to bring back mask mandates in schools and other indoor public settings.
> 
> Dr. Mustafa Hirji, Niagara Region's medical officer of health, Dr. Shanker Nesathurai, the Windsor-Essex County's medical officer of health, and Dr. Thomas Piggott, Peterborough's medical officer of health, penned the letter and sent it to Dr. Kieran Moore, Ontario's chief medical officer of health, on Wednesday.
> ..
> *"To be fully effective and clear in communication to Ontarians, we believe this is needed at a provincial, not a local level," the letter reads.*
> 
> "Like you, we had hoped that as masking and other protections ceased to be requirements, that we would be able to get through this wave without much suffering or long-term disruption. Unfortunately, this does not seem to have played out as we had hoped."
> 
> In March, the Ford government lifted the mask mandate for most settings. That decision, according to a brief from Public Health Ontario (PHO), contributed to the province's sixth wave which saw about 100,000 to 120,000 daily cases at one point in April.
> 
> The surge led to repeated calls for the government to reintroduce masking, especially in schools. But, the province repeatedly insisted that it was not needed.
> 
> *In their letter, the three doctors noted that COVID-19 hospitalizations in their regions continue to exceed figures from previous pandemic waves. It led Niagara's main hospital to ramp down surgeries to 70 per cent, they said, adding that, earlier this week, 100 patients were admitted without a bed.*
> 
> "The COVID-19 pandemic has clearly had a disproportionate impact on the individuals and communities with the worst social determinants of health. The current persistently high transmission of COVID-19 is exacerbating inequalities in our society," the doctors wrote.
> 
> *"This subjects those with inequities to more infections, more hospitalizations, more isolation from work and school, more lost income due to isolation, and more risk of long-term disability with Post-Acute COVID Syndrome (aka Long COVID)."
> 
> In the letter, the doctors highlighted the importance of masking in reducing COVID-19 infections, asking Moore to reconsider imposing mandates.*
> 
> The return of masking could help protect those with inequities and vulnerabilities, relieve the pressures on our hospitals, and most importantly protect the health of the people we serve," they said.
> 
> ... _


 ... but then it wouldn't surprise me that the provincial's CPO acting as an MO needs "time to 'think'" about this in his home-office, only after the need to consult with boss Ford first - if he can then take an extended holiday instead.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> Covid exposed the underlying problems with our healthcare system, nothing has been done to change that and nobody seems to care.


Lmao!

How do you propose we change healthcare to treat 8 billion people with an unknown virus?

This is like blaming NASA for the Harrington solar storm.

Our problems were political and societal. Our healthcare system was actually pretty solid, with perhaps an opportunity for a few improvements.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Might be solid out in your part of the country of Vancouver/B.C.

Doesn't sound very solid in Alberta with this member's post #11 in this thread:
Labor shortage
_



Thanks to the UCP and Jason Kenney for destroying the AB healthcare system.

Click to expand...

_and it's definitely NOT solid in Ontario. The pandemic exacerbated the holes, if not stretched the health systems in Ontario.

I guess it's easiest to close one eyes and stick one's head somewhere - particularly with the job of an "ept" politician "pretending" that there is no back-log of canceled medical procedures/elective surgeries of the last 2+ years and compounding. Amazing.

Don't get me started with the political speak of "opportunity for few improvements."


----------



## james4beach

Doctors are quitting. Nurses are quitting. They've all been working in very stressful conditions, are exhausted, some have PTSD. Many of them have caught covid and are constantly exposed to covid contagion at their jobs.

I really am not on board with Canada relaxing everything and pretending this is over. If we get another bad wave, we're only going to burn out more doctors & nurses. Many of them are thinking -- this moment -- whether it's time to quit. When society doesn't take any precautionary measures to limit the spread of infectious disease, *that problem can land on the lap of these healthcare workers*.

Ending mask laws and allowing limitless public gatherings is downright disrespectful to doctors & nurses. They WILL QUIT. We've been warned.

Some people on this thread have voiced arguments for why we're likely past the worst stuff, and I agree, things are looking good but I don't want to gamble with our healthcare system. All it takes is one more bad wave (could be this fall/winter when schools resume) and that could be "the last straw" for the healthcare workers who haven't quit yet.

And then we're really toast.


----------



## Money172375

Talked to my neighbour last night. He has family in Shanghai. Thankfully they are scheduled to return to Canada this week after 6 years there.

they haven’t been allowed to leave their apartment for 40 days. Locked down. Food is delivered. Haven’t seen a fruit in 2 months. Last food delivery was 5 lbs of oatmeal. That’s it. 

and we complain about lockdowns!


----------



## Beaver101

^ No, we ***** bitterly about lockdowns, the horrible mandates, the useless vaccines, the muzzling masks and then protest in front of hospitals.

As those aren't enough, then we rant or more like blast some more by taking some 16 wheelers over to Ottawa to harass the residents there so that Trudeau would listen (as he said he was.) 

No wonder those people here are going bonkers with these self-induced behaviours.

Almost forgot - now we're known as a commie country too ... LMAO.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Doctors are quitting. Nurses are quitting. They've all been working in very stressful conditions, are exhausted, some have PTSD. Many of them have caught covid and are constantly exposed to covid contagion at their jobs.
> 
> I really am not on board with Canada relaxing everything and pretending this is over. If we get another bad wave, we're only going to burn out more doctors & nurses. Many of them are thinking -- this moment -- whether it's time to quit. When society doesn't take any precautionary measures to limit the spread of infectious disease, *that problem can land on the lap of these healthcare workers*.
> 
> Ending mask laws and allowing limitless public gatherings is downright disrespectful to doctors & nurses. They WILL QUIT. We've been warned.
> 
> Some people on this thread have voiced arguments for why we're likely past the worst stuff, and I agree, things are looking good but I don't want to gamble with our healthcare system. All it takes is one more bad wave (could be this fall/winter when schools resume) and that could be "the last straw" for the healthcare workers who haven't quit yet.
> 
> And then we're really toast.


James, you're really sounding like the boy who cried wolf.
Yeah, maybe dropping masks was a bad idea, but we're over that wave. See bottom of post. Even dropping all the measures barely made a change to the impact.

Lets assume it's spreading like crazy, it's simply not killing many people today. It's not the dangerous unknown 3% death rate virus we had in early 2020.
It's killing less than 1 in a million per day.









Yes it's chewing up a lot of baseline hospital capacity.
Time to get back to normal.












The thing is you can be not happy about the situation, I'm not happy about some things too.
But what do you actually propose we do?

We can't stop it, the measures that MIGHT be able to stop it would be very harsh, and the public won't support it.
You want to pull a China style lockdown here? It won't fly

I still wear a mask when I'm out, I take some precautions, but I'm not going to live my life in a bubble anymore.
And I was a stronger vaccination/lockdown supporter, and if COVID19 was still that dangerous I'd still be pushing for them now.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Lets assume it's spreading like crazy, it's simply not killing many people today.


I didn't say we have a problem today. I said that we're running the risk, if there is a new and worse wave, that hospitals could feel the load again.

You shouldn't just extrapolate today's good situation.


----------



## sags

Many experts are predicting another large wave in the fall.

There are a lot of holes in our healthcare system that need to be fixed. Waiting lists for surgeries are now extended to years.

I personally don't care what the other 8 billion people in the world do for heatlhcare. I am only concerned about the 35 million people in Canada.

Lots of pledges by Provincial Premiers have been made but very little has changed. They are hoping it all just goes away.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I didn't say we have a problem today. I said that we're running the risk, if there is a new and worse wave, that hospitals could feel the load again.
> 
> You shouldn't just extrapolate today's good situation.


Yes we should extrapolate todays good situation.

There always is, always was, and always will be a new and worse wave of something that could cause a problem.

There really isn't much we can do to change it, the risk is lower, the people don't want to, and even abusive police states are having trouble keeping their restrictions going.



sags said:


> There are a lot of holes in our healthcare system that need to be fixed. Waiting lists for surgeries are now extended to years.


I think when you say "now" you mean always.
Our surgery waitlists have ALWAYS extended for years.



> I personally don't care what the other 8 billion people in the world do for heatlhcare. I am only concerned about the 35 million people in Canada.


So do I, which is why I'm really hoping that the PC's stay in power in Ontario, they handled COVID19 well, and they were working on a total revamp of LTC when COVID hit, because they actually want to fix things.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Yes we should extrapolate todays good situation.
> 
> There always is, always was, and always will be a new and worse wave of something that could cause a problem.
> 
> There really isn't much we can do to change it, the risk is lower, the people don't want to, and even abusive police states are having trouble keeping their restrictions going.


 ... just like the abusive police states "are/will ALWAYS" having trouble keeping their restrictions going with those self-centered induced morons.



> I think when you say "now" you mean always.
> Our surgery waitlists have ALWAYS extended for years.
> 
> So do I, which is why I'm really hoping that the PC's stay in power in Ontario, they handled COVID19 well, and they were working on a total revamp of LTC when COVID hit, because they actually want to fix things.


 ... that's laughable as to date I haven't seen nor heard of the "plan" from the PC party on how they gonna to fix broken healthcare systems particularly the BACKLOG of cancelled elective surgeries and procedures. Other than an announcement that they're building a new hospital (or wing) out in Mississauga ... that's gonna to sit at least half empty. And that we're gonna to be hiring more nurses and doctors with more pay 'cause Ontario got some 3,100 beds to fill up. Meanwhile the PC is declaring the pandemic is over.

So what the PC "has handled" the Covid19 well but it's not over with a possibility of not being over for a loooong time. Meanwhile should we award them for a Nobel Prize for doing their job?


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> You shouldn't just extrapolate today's good situation.


It would be a shame to let an opportunity for pessimism pass by unactioned.


----------



## TomB16

Does anyone remember when AB and SK were out of their tree for relaxing restrictions? From memory, we were all going to die.

In December, I went for lunch with some former coworkers and mentioned I thought there was a good chance Omicron would be the last big COVID wave. It went about the same as when I mentioned it in this thread in January.

At some point, we need to acknowledge that our response is largely based on philosophy. Some people want to cocoon at the first sign of trouble while others would have never quarantined, regardless of the life consequence or healthcare conditions. Its OK that conservatives have a different point of view than liberals. Both sides can be correct on this.


----------



## james4beach

There is a difference between the quality of a decision, and the outcome.

Smart decisions can have either good or bad outcomes.
Really stupid decisions can also have good outcomes.

One should always strive to make _good decisions_, and that's independent of what the outcome turns out to be.

But just because an outcome was good, doesn't mean the decision was smart. Medical experts continue to advise caution because of the possibility of waning immunity and new variants. AB and SK dropping their guard during a high-risk period was a really stupid decision.


----------



## londoncalling

james4beach said:


> There is a difference between the quality of a decision, and the outcome.
> 
> Smart decisions can have either good or bad outcomes.
> Really stupid decisions can also have good outcomes.
> 
> One should always strive to make _good decisions_, and that's independent of what the outcome turns out to be.


This is a profound statement on decision making. 👏


----------



## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> This is a profound statement on decision making. 👏


Thanks, but I can't take credit for this. I highly recommend this video by Ben Felix, one of my favourites

How to Evaluate Your Investment Decisions


----------



## TomB16

In this case, AB and SK were guided by less protective methodologies that proved to be the wiser course of action.


james4beach said:


> There is a difference between the quality of a decision, and the outcome.


You make some good points, and I share your point of view, but I will point out that you have used this reasoning to justify a position that has proven to be incorrect.

The lockdowns were only intended to make the situation survivable for healthcare (slow propagation), not to stop the virus from propagating.

Sometimes, this sort of reasoning is support for a subjective position that would otherwise not be defensible. It seems likely to me that you, Beaver, and sags will never agree that lifting the lockdowns was the right thing to do, regardless of any objective evidence.

I've been following a network of YouTube physicians (about 15) located around the world who seemed to be objective. This evaluation proved correct, so I have been ahead of the curve including our healthcare system.

It's too early to call the COVID pandemic over but a lot of evidence is pointing in this direction. Omicron is the vaccine we could not make.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> In this case, AB and SK were guided by less protective methodologies that proved to be the wiser course of action.
> 
> 
> You make some good points, and I share your point of view, but I will point out that you have used this reasoning to justify a position that has proven to be incorrect.
> 
> The lockdowns were only intended to make the situation survivable for healthcare (slow propagation), not to stop the virus from propagating.
> 
> Sometimes, this sort of reasoning is support for a subjective position that would otherwise not be defensible. * It seems likely to me that you, Beaver, and sags will never agree that lifting the lockdowns was the right thing to do, regardless of any objective evidence.*


 ... hello? when are lifting lockdowns never (or considered) a right thing to do? My qualm was the lifting of them "lockdowns (if they were ever truly lockdowns per se like you were locked and bolted inside your home)" were done too early along with the restrictions. And what "objective evidence" were you basing on to open up everything? Positivity rate? Falling hospitalisations that's ever so sloooow? ICU numbers? Or Covid in them waste water?



> I've been following a network of YouTube physicians (about 15) located around the world who seemed to be objective. This evaluation proved correct, so I have been ahead of the curve including our healthcare system.


 . .. OMG, are you serious about following a network of YouTube physicians to get a sense of where this Covid thing is? I just follow 1 news (local, real world) channel, 1 infectious disease MD's (actually works over at UHN in Toronto) and already have a sense of we are with Covid. Sorry but I don't have all that time to follow some 14 other physicians (possibly with some quacks thrown in), especially from Youtube. I would rather watch the crop circles phenomenon from Youtube instead.



> It's too early to call the COVID pandemic over but a lot of evidence is pointing in this direction. Omicron is the vaccine we could not make.


 ... let's hope and pray. In the meantime, I'll do my part not to receive and give Covid(19).


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> It's too early to call the COVID pandemic over but a lot of evidence is pointing in this direction. Omicron is the vaccine we could not make.


I don't think it will be over, I think we'll just lose interest/concern.


----------



## james4beach

There's a problem with liver disease in kids, a major problem globally. Some kids even end up with liver failure.

It's most pronounced in the US and UK.

Scientists are mystified. They've ruled out covid vaccines since most of these children weren't vaccinated. But COVID is possibly playing a role in this. The common cold is also suspected, but that doesn't make a lot of sense, since the common cold has been around forever. It could of course also be some combined effect of carrying multiple infections (perhaps weakened by the cold, and then catching COVID).

Potentially a very serious problem. I wouldn't shrug off COVID if I were you guys.


----------



## Beaver101

Are we talking about the same subject?

'A new pathogen or an old pathogen that is behaving differently:' SickKids reports 7 probable cases of severe hepatitis of unknown origin

Here's a snippet of the article (open, no paywall):



> _...
> “The challenge with this breakout of new cases is that the typical hepatitis viruses are not being found in these children,” pediatrician Dr. Dina Kulik told CP24 earlier on Tuesday.
> 
> “Some of these kids tested positive for COVID, some had previous documented COVID-19 infections, and many kids are testing positive for another typically benign virus known as adenovirus that doesn’t typically cause hepatitis or really severe illness at all.”
> 
> *The World Health Organization says it is now aware of 348 cases of the unexplained hepatitis in kids around the world, with one death reported and 17 liver transplants required so far in response.*
> 
> Upton said that the cases at SickKids have involved children between the ages of two and 14. None of the children are currently being cared for in hospital, he said.
> 
> “The most important thing is, first of all, this is rare. So it's important to recognize that and it's not so far any of the recognized causes of hepatitis. But the investigations continue worldwide to get a better understanding of whether or not we're looking at a new pathogen or an old pathogen that is behaving differently in individuals for whatever reason,” he said.
> 
> *Multiple causes of the hepatitis cases are under investigation. British authorities have said a rare adenovirus may be to blame.
> 
> Meanwhile, researchers in India and Israel have found data that suggests previous COVID-19 infection might be the culprit.*
> 
> In a statement provided to CP24 on Tuesday, the Public Health Agency of Canada said that it is aware of the cases of severe acute hepatitis at SickKids and is monitoring the situation. ..._


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> Are we talking about the same subject?


Yes I think that's the same one. The US is tracking about 100 suspected cases. So far 14% of the children required liver transplants though the WHO's number is more like 5% needing transplants. Either way, horrendous.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Scientists are mystified. They've ruled out covid vaccines since most of these children weren't vaccinated. But COVID is possibly playing a role in this. The common cold is also suspected, but that doesn't make a lot of sense, since the common cold has been around forever. It could of course also be some combined effect of carrying multiple infections (perhaps weakened by the cold, and then catching COVID).
> 
> Potentially a very serious problem. I wouldn't shrug off COVID if I were you guys.


The common cold and Coronavirus has been around forever. Remember lots of the common cold is actually coronavirus.

I don't understand your distinction. If the idea that a particular Coronavirus strain causes this problem, then why would liver damage be somehow more likely with one Coronavirus strain instead of another? The only real difference is COVID19 has been heavily promoted in the media.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> The common cold and Coronavirus has been around forever. Remember lots of the common cold is actually coronavirus.
> 
> I don't understand your distinction. If the idea that a particular Coronavirus strain causes this problem, then why would liver damage be somehow more likely with one Coronavirus strain instead of another?* The only real difference is COVID19 has been heavily promoted in the media.*


 ... talk about a lax (for a lack of a better word) mind as if the thousands, if not millions of deaths count as nothing.  Unbelieveable.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> There is a difference between the quality of a decision, and the outcome.
> 
> Smart decisions can have either good or bad outcomes.
> Really stupid decisions can also have good outcomes.
> 
> One should always strive to make _good decisions_, and that's independent of what the outcome turns out to be.
> 
> But just because an outcome was good, doesn't mean the decision was smart. Medical experts continue to advise caution because of the possibility of waning immunity and new variants. AB and SK dropping their guard during a high-risk period was a really stupid decision.


No doubt one requires more investigation to determine the quality of a decision then just using the final outcome, when we live in a world that produces many random future outcomes combining both good luck with the bad.

That said, there is no doubt that the decision to drop all precautions in 2022 was the correct decision. You have to be completely stubborn with your previous opinions, not to notice by now that the pandemic is better today then almost any day since it started. These positive results are not in spite of dropping our precautions but because of it. You see that everywhere you look. Community exposure has been the only thing that has had the power to put this pandemic down. The vaccines provided us the strength to acquire this exposure, but it was that exposure that has finally broken the back of the pandemic.

Not only is what I said obvious today looking back, but it was extremely probable, back in January/February, using our best scientific theories AND from observations of results from other countries who waded into these same waters before us.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> I wouldn't shrug off COVID if I were you guys.


For sure.

COVID is still around and dangerous but it is becoming increasingly less dangerous because it has less fuel to burn, now that so many people have had it.

Much like the bubonic plague, people will continue to get it, people will continue to die from it, and the numbers will be very low.


----------



## TomB16

To be direct, I don't know what some of you are arguing about. Perhaps some of these posts are nominal negativity for the individuals posting them?

Are any of you arguing that we should continue lock down, masking, more vaccine boosters, crowd restrictions, etc.?

Maybe we are all on the same page?


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> To be direct, I don't know what some of you are arguing about. Perhaps some of these posts are nominal negativity for the individuals posting them?
> 
> Are any of you arguing that we should continue lock down, masking, more vaccine boosters, crowd restrictions, etc.?
> 
> Maybe we are all on the same page?


We should mask in higher risk settings, because it's very low cost and potentially helpful at limiting a bit.

There are people out there who want lockdowns. But they're simply not going to happen at this point.


----------



## sags

Hospitalizations and deaths are coming down in our area, so that is good news for worn out healthcare workers.

The bad news is that experts expect a big wave in the fall and there is uncertainty around future mutations.

But........I am not opposed to opening up a little now to relieve pressure, as long as the government is not hesitant to do what may be necessary in the future.

Personally, I won't be going to a Blue Jays game with 50,000 other people as my risk level profile has not changed and I still wear a mask.

About the only "freedom" I have now is being with our son and family for an odd occasion.

I lucked out with them.......because they all got covid during a time when we didn't have contact for a week or two.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> We should mask in higher risk settings, because it's very low cost and potentially helpful at limiting a bit.
> 
> *There are people out there who want lockdowns. But they're simply not going to happen at this point.*


 ... are you still crying? By being exposed to your exaggerations? Father and son got ticketed for trying to skate-board in a parking lot 'cause the government (hear this, from the "Ford" government) mandated a "lockdown" in Scarborough (not your town btw). My my my ... how did the father and son even make it out to the parking lot in the first place, never mind erroneously ticketed by an overzealous inept by-law officer?


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Hospitalizations and deaths are coming down in our area, so that is good news for worn out healthcare workers.
> 
> The bad news is that experts expect a big wave in the fall and there is uncertainty around future mutations.
> 
> But........I am not opposed to opening up a little now to relieve pressure, as long as the government is not hesitant to do what may be necessary in the future.
> 
> Personally, I won't be going to a Blue Jays game with 50,000 other people as my risk level profile has not changed and I still wear a mask.
> 
> About the only "freedom" I have now is being with our son and family for an odd occasion.
> 
> I lucked out with them.......because they all got covid during a time when we didn't have contact for a week or two.


 ... yep, I'm still waiting for an invite from my next door neighbour for his annual BBQ event(s).


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The bad news is that experts expect a big wave in the fall and there is uncertainty around future mutations.


Yeah, and after SARS-CoV-1 they stopped worrying, threw out the pandemic stockpiles and along came SARS-CoV-2



> But........I am not opposed to opening up a little now to relieve pressure, as long as the government is not hesitant to do what may be necessary in the future.


The Federal government never did what was necessary, so they will likely hestitate again.
The provinces can't do much because there is no public support to do so.



> Personally, I won't be going to a Blue Jays game with 50,000 other people as my risk level profile has not changed and I still wear a mask.


I wouldn't either, because baseball is dumb.



> I lucked out with them.......because they all got covid during a time when we didn't have contact for a week or two.


over 90% of my wifes department at her work has had COVID. Though we haven't yet.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... yep, I'm still waiting for an invite from my next door neighbour for his annual BBQ event(s).


I suspect your invitation chances would improve immeasurably if you were to sweeten your disposition.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I suspect your invitation chances would improve immeasurably if you were to sweeten your disposition.


 ... such as? Keep in mind, he started the "trend" with the invites since he needs to clean out his freezers. It doesn't mean I'll attend even "invited".


----------



## Birder

Today my husband and I drove to the Niagara area. Stopped at Tim's along the way and also ran into a mall to use the washroom. I would say 90% of people were unmasked. Quite surprising to me. Here in Burlington, I would say at least 40% still masked at the grocery store but small town Canada, not so much.


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> ... such as? Keep in mind, he started the "trend" with the invites since he needs to clean out his freezers. It doesn't mean I'll attend even "invited".


 ... my point being - he hasn't sent out the invite since Covid started .. and why's that? And I'm not gonna to ask him either beecauussee Covid hasn't ended. 

And yes, we keep 6' distance apart in talking when not wearing a mask.


----------



## Beaver101

Birder said:


> Today my husband and I drove to the Niagara area. Stopped at Tim's along the way and also ran into a mall to use the washroom. I would say 90% of people were unmasked. Quite surprising to me. Here in Burlington, I would say at least 40% still masked at the grocery store but small town Canada, not so much.


 ... people "on the street" here in "Toronto" are still wearing their masks. I would say about 40% is about right now versus 80% last posted (a month ago) in regards to this. Some eateries have removed their "mask requirement in store" postings now but some haven't. Plus servers in these eateries still have their masks on along with pexi-glasses remaining at the cash registers - in all the restaurants, pharmacies, supermarkets, etc. that I go to.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... my point being - he hasn't sent out the invite since Covid started .. and why's that? And I'm not gonna to ask him either beecauussee Covid hasn't ended.
> 
> And yes, we keep 6' distance apart in talking when not wearing a mask.


Maybe he's a bit put off from that time you told a joke about a kitten being run over by a semi tractor and then laughed hysterically for a few minutes?


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... people "on the street" here in "Toronto" are still wearing their masks. I would say about 40% is about right now


Yeah it looked like about 40% when I was there a couple weeks ago. Seems about the same in Vancouver too.

I don't mind people relaxing in the summer but I'm worried that they will fail to adapt again to the rising risk in the fall. This is why I'd prefer Public Health to steadily require mask usage. It's much easier for people (and less stressful by the way) to stick with routine patterns of behaviour, rather than keep changing it.

The public is currently being trained to be careless and to forget about COVID risk. That's not smart. If a new wave hits in fall/winter the public will have a much harder time adapting and getting their guards up again.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> Plus servers in these eateries still have their masks on along with pexi-glasses remaining at the cash registers - in all the restaurants, pharmacies, supermarkets, etc. that I go to.


I think the plastic screens are here to stay.


----------



## MrMatt

Birder said:


> Today my husband and I drove to the Niagara area. Stopped at Tim's along the way and also ran into a mall to use the washroom. I would say 90% of people were unmasked. Quite surprising to me. Here in Burlington, I would say at least 40% still masked at the grocery store but small town Canada, not so much.


I typically see 10-50% depending on location. Two places across the street, one will be 10%, one will be 50%.

I'm actually not clear on any demographic explanation. There doesn't seem to be much pattern that I can tell.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> The public is currently being trained to be careless and to forget about COVID risk.


This morning, I found a partially worn sucker stuck to the bottom of a park bench. Cherry! It was tasty!


----------



## james4beach

The US has marked 1 million COVID deaths. The disease is now the third largest cause of death in the US, after heart disease and cancer.

A friend of mine had a trip to Texas and caught COVID while there. She's a very healthy 40 year old.

She tested positive at the end of March and is still testing positive in PCR tests today. So she's been testing positive for 5 weeks!


----------



## HappilyRetired

It's 1 million deaths while testing positive for Covid but it's definitely not 1 million Covid deaths.


----------



## TomB16

Elon Musk mentioned he has been in contact with Chinese government officials who tell him the Shanghai lockdown will be over in weeks, not months. This is good news for the people in Shanghai.


----------



## Beaver101

^^ Appears someone either can't read when it has been stated very clearly or just like to to twist things. Would not surprise me one bit with the latter.


----------



## TomB16

Quebec is set to lift the indoor masking mandate on Monday.

BA.2 is less severe than BA.1 with about half of the hospitalization rate in UK.


----------



## Beaver101

https://gurubengals.com/further-research-links-air-pollution-exposure-and-covid-19-risk/

Another risk factor to consider on Covid mortality - air pollution. Above link is open (no paywall).

I say the air in the modern office with those beautifully-lined carpets (aside from everybody's breaths) is sufficient to kill you, let alone outside pollution ... lol.


----------



## sags

TomB16 said:


> Quebec is set to lift the indoor masking mandate on Monday.
> 
> BA.2 is less severe than BA.1 with about half of the hospitalization rate in UK.


B.A.2 is gone. It is B.A.2.2. now.


----------



## Beaver101

^ The latest news - Thurs. May 19, 2022 where 1,000 cases of B.A.2.2. have been detected in Ontario. First case was detected on Feb. 14, 2022 in London, Ontario. Link detailing this is below.

1,000 cases of new Omicron subvariant BA.2.20 found in Ontario: PHO


----------



## Beaver101

Inside a growing movement of COVID deniers and conspiracists — including one Ontario cop — who are clogging the courts with ‘legal gibberish’

Above is behind a paywall but one can get the gist of what the article is about. 

Try to have a laugh as the gibberish-maker is a cop who is going to court to refute the laws as being not applicable to him. LMAO.


----------



## TomB16

BA 4 & BA 5 are sufficiently different from BA 2 that we are seeing break through infections. Those of us who have had BA 1 or BA 2 could all end up getting another cold out of this. Those who have not had COVID 19 at all could take a real hit but that's a pretty small group so I'm not expecting a significant increase in hospitalizations.

Meanwhile, now that we know the vast, vast majority of FDA vaccine certification data is legal boiler plate, this data is going to be delivered within three years (in monthly instalments). It would be nice if someone would dig into why the FDA is legally fighting so hard to keep this freedom of information request from being fulfilled.


----------



## sags

Voluntary lockdowns coming in the fall, so stock up now if you can.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Voluntary lockdowns coming in the fall, so stock up now if you can.


Based on what?

You're sounding like chicken little.


Also "voluntary lockdowns" have always existed and always will. 
There is nothing stopping you from engaging in your own voluntary lockdown right now if you wanted too.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Voluntary lockdowns coming in the fall, so stock up now if you can.


I think more likely that indoor masks are made mandatory again, and sizes of large gatherings limited.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I think more likely that indoor masks are made mandatory again, and sizes of large gatherings limited.


I think things would have to get much worse for that to happen. My latest foray into the world suggests maybe 20% mask usage.. it's falling fast.


----------



## OptsyEagle

What is a voluntary lockdown? A night in watching TV.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> I think things would have to get much worse for that to happen. My latest foray into the world suggests maybe 20% mask usage.. it's falling fast.


But we don't even know what the current situation is. We're operating blind here.

Provinces don't even know how many people are dying due to COVID. All we know is that the hospitals and ICUs aren't full (which is great), but there are still daily deaths. And we don't have a reading on how many deaths are due to COVID.

Operating blind like this is really stupid. I suspect we don't have a problem today, but I don't want to guess at this stuff, especially once we're into *winter*. We have modern technology and computers for god sake! Where's the monitoring and analysis?


----------



## damian13ster

Lack of monitoring is amazing. The 24/7 media circus and anxiety buildup went on for 2 years to long.
Chicken littles will still find a reason for the impeding doom and normal people can continue with their lives.

We can focus on real issues now.
Inflation, hate-speech from PM, division, incoming economic slowdown, war in Ukraine, etc.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> But we don't even know what the current situation is. We're operating blind here.
> 
> Provinces don't even know how many people are dying due to COVID. All we know is that the hospitals and ICUs aren't full (which is great), but there are still daily deaths. And we don't have a reading on how many deaths are due to COVID.
> 
> Operating blind like this is really stupid. I suspect we don't have a problem today, but I don't want to guess at this stuff, especially once we're into *winter*. We have modern technology and computers for god sake! Where's the monitoring and analysis?


We have wastewater monitoring which is nice and cheap.
Ontario reports COVID deaths daily, did other provinces stop?





Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca





The reality is it's a concern, but not a crisis, and we should give it that level of attention.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Ontario reports COVID deaths daily, did other provinces stop?


BC reports COVID deaths, but their report clearly spells out that these are just deaths for anyone who happens to test positive. This doesn't mean the deaths are due to COVID (or related problems).

BC's reports candidly describe how they don't have measures on hospitalizations and deaths *due to* COVID.

ON may be different.



MrMatt said:


> The reality is it's a concern, but not a crisis, and we should give it that level of attention.


One has to be proactive.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> The US has marked 1 million COVID deaths. The disease is now the third largest cause of death in the US, after heart disease and cancer.
> 
> A friend of mine had a trip to Texas and caught COVID while there. She's a very healthy 40 year old.
> 
> She tested positive at the end of March and is still testing positive in PCR tests today. So she's been testing positive for 5 weeks!


testing positive after you are confirmed means nothing. A PCR test can pick up remnants of the dead virus for up to 120 days, 30 days for a rapid. That is why if you were planning to go to travel, if you caught covid, you could pay for a travel PCR shortly after and not have to test travel.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> One has to be proactive.


Of course, but we aren't.

Heathy diet
Exercise
Flossing

All show MASSIVE health benefits, but few are actually proactive.

I think that some people aren't taking COVID19 as serious as they should, but I think some people are taking it far more seriously than the current situation warrants.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> What is a voluntary lockdown? A night in watching TV.


 ... seems like to be the case all along in the past 2.5 years. There was never a "mandatory" , let alone "lockdown" for the public. The mandatory lockdown was primarily targeted to walk-in businesses.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Of course, but we aren't.
> 
> Heathy diet
> Exercise
> Flossing
> 
> All show MASSIVE health benefits, but few are actually proactive.
> 
> I think that some people aren't taking COVID19 as serious as they should, but *I think some people are taking it far more seriously than the current situation warrants.*


 ... make sure you include those in the pro-free(dom)-of-choices-hardcored-whacked-jobs-at-other people's expenses category.


----------



## Beaver101

Hamilton-area woman says daughter was kicked out of local activity centre over decision to wear face mask

What a smart-business owner here - one that's lined right up the toilet. $260 business loss, bad publicity (this one is priceless), an apology if not a lawsuit for (a) Human Rights violation.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> What a smart-business owner here - one that's lined right up the toilet. $260 business loss, bad publicity (this one is priceless), an apology if not a lawsuit for (a) Human Rights violation.


It's just astounding how people behave these days. We still have a mysterious (still not well understood) *extremely infectious* disease running through society. An illness which causes, in some people, loss of brain function and potentially which can destroy children's livers. Those are new health issues coming up that we still don't understand at all.

I went to grab a rental car a couple days ago. The small office was packed full of maybe 10 to 15 people, many of them having just arrived from other countries. Hey everyone, let's all fly in from Asia and Europe, spend many hours in airports, and then all cram together with strangers in a small office!

Other than me, nobody had a mask. Just astoundingly stupid behaviour by the public.


----------



## Beaver101

^ The public (with exceptions) has always been considered stupid, acting like a bunch of kids. 

But what's worst is the top official with expertise (public health) in that area is even stupider (if not "the stupidest" IMHO) by relaxing the restrictions or "downplaying" the seriousness of this extremely infectious disease. It's like the parents who don't rein in their kids, the kids will do whatever they want. And so be it as right now, the public is acting like if a pandemic (let alone an endemic) doesn't exists. Comes winter, it's gonna to be déja vu with cases climbing, if not hospitalisations and then it's time to react! I guess this justify how taxpayers money are spent ... "monitoring" ... from behind a computer screen working hard 24/7 being spoon-fed data from everybody else whilst under a gazebo in the DR.

Now we have monkeypox to contend to ... with first case detected in Toronto. Okay, party away.

Toronto investigating first suspected case of monkeypox


----------



## londoncalling

OptsyEagle said:


> What is a voluntary lockdown? A night in watching TV.


Voluntary lockdown is the new netflix and chill.


----------



## damian13ster

Any more 'Voluntary' lockdowns and people will go to the streets. Things will turn really nasty.
History has taught us otherwise, but hopefully eventually people rise up when pushed to hard


----------



## kcowan

I think the average person will acknowledge that lockdowns are based on ignorance and fear and not science.

Let the ignorant and fearful follow any government directives, The rest of us will be the opposition and follow the science.


----------



## Beaver101

kcowan said:


> I think the average person will acknowledge that lockdowns are based on ignorance and fear and not science.
> 
> *Let the ignorant and fearful follow any government directives, The rest of us will be the opposition and follow the science.*


 ... WOW. 

First, define "average". 

Second, do you pay any taxes ... to the Canadian government? 

Thirdly, are you planning to go to meds school and self-diagnose, self-medicate, and then self-cure? I mean you can try to get imervertin (sic or whatever hell that's spelled) off the black market.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> Any more 'Voluntary' lockdowns and people will go to the streets. Things will turn really nasty.
> History has taught us otherwise, but hopefully eventually people rise up when pushed to hard


And then they go to the hospitals and beg the doctors to save them,..... if the doctors are still there.


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> Any more 'Voluntary' lockdowns and people will go to the streets. Things will turn really nasty.
> History has taught us otherwise, but hopefully eventually people rise up when pushed to hard


This is not what people will do. That's what people like YOU will do, because you have a certain mentality. You're sadly mistaken if you think most of society has your values and perspective on this.

It's kind of like those convoy people. They think all of Canada is as outraged as them when it's more like 1% to 5% of people who were extremely fed up to the point of taking physical measures.

And most of the anger/outrage being voiced in Canada about covid measures is influenced from the United States. If it wasn't for unhinged Americans screaming from across the border, we wouldn't have even had all this ridiculous "freedom" rallying and protests. Take a look at those protests in Canada and you'll see American flags, MAGA flags, and religious banners from fundamentalist churches.

The kinds of people who warn about things turning nasty and chaotic, are saying this because they are people who have that chaotic mindset themselves. It's out of touch with the reality of main stream opinion.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> This is not what people will do. That's what people like YOU will do, because you have a certain mentality. You're sadly mistaken if you think most of society has your values and perspective on this.
> 
> It's kind of like those convoy people. They think all of Canada is as outraged as them when it's more like 1% to 5% of people who were extremely fed up to the point of taking physical measures.
> 
> And most of the anger/outrage being voiced in Canada about covid measures is influenced from the United States. If it wasn't for unhinged Americans screaming from across the border, we wouldn't have even had all this ridiculous "freedom" rallying and protests. Take a look at those protests in Canada and you'll see American flags, MAGA flags, and religious banners from fundamentalist churches.
> 
> The kinds of people who warn about things turning nasty and chaotic, are saying this because they are people who have that chaotic mindset themselves. It's out of touch with the reality of main stream opinion.


We just went through 2 summers of left wing riots, arson, violence, and murders. Yet you are completely blind to that.

I don't worry about right wing violence, it's far too rare. Government approved left wing violence is the real threat to society.


----------



## Beaver101

Oh PP, where are you? We got a hard-core MAGA/MCGA supporter for ya here!!!!


----------



## james4beach

My neighbourhood pharmacy has been closed for the last few days. There aren't enough staff, and I heard from people at the store that many people are out sick due to COVID.

These pharmacy workers have sick people coming in all day, every day. Many customers don't wear masks and obviously are infecting the staff. Tourism is also up dramatically around here so I'm sure various sick people are coming in from all over the place and infecting the employees.

At my local grocery store, I recently noticed that older staff is increasingly switching to higher grade KN95 masks.

Similar problems are happening at restaurants. Many staff shortages due to COVID, as it's spreading within the community. How terrible that the public doesn't wear masks and exposes these hard working people to constant illness.

And they wonder why there are staff shortages. Who wants to work indoors, at an office or in the service industry, and get sick all the time? Masks should be made mandatory again.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Until your top health official (CMO) gives his/hers "strong recommendations" to your premier to issue a directive to the public, the "majority of the stupids there" will not wear a mask because 1. it infringes "their" rights, 2. it's uncomfortable (despite it's already in use for 2.5 years), 3. it makes them look like their buddy or supposedly "man's best friend", and 4. their <fill-in-the-blank-SELFISH> excuse. 

Oh well, we all suffer with the "we're all in it together" genorosity.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Sweden didn't lock down or have mandatory masks and they did better than most countries. James and Beaver don't believe science, they just repeat political talking points.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Sweden didn't lock down or have mandatory masks and they did better than most countries. James and Beaver don't believe science, they just repeat political talking points.


 ... define 1. the "better" as in terms of what?, and 2. what's the "political point" with masks?

As for the "science", whose science should we believe in? 

Yours? Like bleach, invermectin (sic), laser beams up the butt, MAmericaGA, and your Jim Jones sciences are effective in battling Covid?


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> My neighbourhood pharmacy has been closed for the last few days. There aren't enough staff, and I heard from people at the store that many people are out sick due to COVID.
> 
> These pharmacy workers have sick people coming in all day, every day. Many customers don't wear masks and obviously are infecting the staff. Tourism is also up dramatically around here so I'm sure various sick people are coming in from all over the place and infecting the employees.
> 
> At my local grocery store, I recently noticed that older staff is increasingly switching to higher grade KN95 masks.
> 
> Similar problems are happening at restaurants. Many staff shortages due to COVID, as it's spreading within the community. How terrible that the public doesn't wear masks and exposes these hard working people to constant illness.
> 
> And they wonder why there are staff shortages. Who wants to work indoors, at an office or in the service industry, and get sick all the time? Masks should be made mandatory again.


I'm seeing 10-20% mask usage. Slightly higher among staff at about 30-50%

I just don't see public support for masking.

Lots of workplaces have high absenteeism, it might be COVID, it might be other things, but it looks like we're going to have to figure out how to function with higher abenteism rates.


----------



## Beaver101

^ The "public stupids" don't support mask.

As for functioning with higher absentism ... how about getting managers, not limited to middle ones only to brush, scrub, and clean the toilets themselves for one? LMAO.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... define 1. the "better" as in terms of what?, and 2. what's the "political point" with masks? As for the "science", whose science should we believe in? Yours? Like the bleach, invermectin (sic), laser beams up the butt, MAmericaGA, and your Jim Jones sciences?


Now I remember why I had you on ignore and why so many other people do. When confronted with facts you meltdown and insult people.

It's not my science, it's the actual data. It's readily available, why don't you look it up?


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Now I remember why I had you on ignore and why so many other people do.


 ... really? It's only "now that you remember" when just a couple of days you stated you want to UnIgnore to Troll me. How convenient. I couldn't careless who Ignore me ... I'm enjoying such posters imploding when responding ... LMAO.



> When confronted with facts you meltdown and insult people.


 ... what facts? Your facts and AGAIN talking about yourself here ? I mean I can't change the spots of a troller.



> It's not my science, it's the actual data. It's readily available, why don't you look it up?


 ... why should I when you stated Sweden was doing better than most countries. Where's your backup to make that kind of statement FIRST. You're the one who's onto "science" (supposedly) as farcial as it is and will be with the repeated MAGAgain, again, again, again, again ... on and on and on and on ...etc.,etc., etc., and etc.


----------



## sags

This Sweden ?









Sweden’s king on coronavirus strategy: ‘We have failed’


Sweden’s king said in a new address that the country’s strategy to slow the spread of COVID-19 has “failed” as the fatality count in the Scandinavian country continues to rise. Carl XVI Gustaf…




thehill.com





Maybe this Sweden ?



Town of Sweden, Maine – Official Web Site



Or this Sweden ?









Monroe County NY | Town Of Sweden







www.townofsweden.org


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> I'm seeing 10-20% mask usage. Slightly higher among staff at about 30-50%
> 
> I just don't see public support for masking.
> 
> Lots of workplaces have high absenteeism, it might be COVID, it might be other things, but it looks like we're going to have to figure out how to function with higher abenteism rates.


It is 100% covid driven. There has been someone out with COVID in my team almost continuously since March.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> It is 100% covid driven. There has been someone out with COVID in my team almost continuously since March.


It is not 100% COVID driven.

Only about 1/3 of the cases in some offices are COVID. 

while rapidtests give false negatives on current strains.I think PCR tests are still considered accurate.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> It is not 100% COVID driven.
> 
> Only about 1/3 of the cases in some offices are COVID.


 ... then what makes up the other 2/3 of the absentism? The flu, the cold or the monthly? Or maybe you can say they're making the sickness up whilst commenting on CMF. LMAO.



> while rapidtests give false negatives on current strains.I think PCR tests are still considered accurate.


 ... and just who do you "blame?" for the lack of PCR testings now? The public? Or if we the public are NOT to "blame", then what's the point of your post? Sounds much like the pandemic is over in the mindset of our top CMO and their "believers".


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... then what makes up the other 2/3 of the absentism? The flu, the cold or the monthly? Or maybe you can say they're making the sickness up whilst commenting on CMF. LMAO.
> 
> ... and just who do you "blame?" for the lack of PCR testings now? The public? Or if we the public are NOT to "blame", then what's the point of your post? Sounds much like the pandemic is over in the mindset of our top CMO and their "believers".


I'm just disputing that 100% of absenteeism is COVID, since I know offices where only 30% of absences are COVID, as confirmed by PCR tests.
I don't have information on what the other things are, just that the data shows they aren't COVID in the few offices I have data on.

100% is a ridiculous claim anyway, even during peak COVID there were people missing work for other things.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I'm just disputing that 100% of absenteeism is COVID, since I know offices where only 30% of absences are COVID, as confirmed by PCR tests.


 ... okay, does it make you feel better if the absences due to Covid is 90% with 10% as an unknown given you don't have that data? 


> I don't have information on what the other things are, just that the data shows they aren't COVID in the few offices I have data on.


 ... and speaking of your office's 30% Covid-related absenteeism rate which requires an official PCR testing in order to be considered as legit. Then what happens when one of your staff wakes up as crxp, with a dribbling nose and periodic coughs and subsequently self-test positive with a RAT? So is it expected he/she come into the office as that would NOT be really considered as having Covid. Is that what the 70% represent? If so, arggh and ewww for employees working there.



> 100% is a ridiculous claim anyway, even during peak COVID there were people missing work for other things.


 ... look if you can't trust your employees, then needless to say there's something wrong with management there aside from the HR department.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... okay, does it make you feel better if the absences due to Covid is 90% with 10% as an unknown given you don't have that data?


If you show me the data, sure.

I'm just saying that 100% is a ridiculous claim, and from the data that I have access too it seems like the number is around 30%.




> ... and speaking of your office's 30% Covid-related absenteeism rate which requires an official PCR testing in order to be considered as legit.


Not my office, and yes I did say it was PCR supported data, I preemptively raised that concern because of the high false negative rate of RAT.



> ... look if you can't trust your employees, then needless to say there's something wrong with management there aside from the HR department.


Huh?

What does having COVID or having another illness have to do with employee trust?

Maybe you're not aware of this, but some people are still interested in tracking COVID, and some workplaces are required to track COVID.


Now I remember why I put you on ignore.
You somehow twisted my doubt of a 100% covid claim into a management & HR problem.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> If you show me the data, sure.
> 
> I'm just saying that 100% is a ridiculous claim, and from the data that I have access too it seems like the number is around 30%.


 ... what data as I ain't working? I thought you were talking with "data" from your office with your "30%" ... you do realize 30% is still 60% away from 90%, let alone 100%. so your 30% is just as ridiculous. Besides, the 100% reference is coming from firsthand - re andrewf's post.



> Not my office, and yes I did say it was PCR supported data, I preemptively raised that concern because of the high false negative rate of RAT.


 ... so where did you get the 30% from, if it isn't your office? Your friend's office? From the air? From our CMO's office?



> Huh?
> 
> What does having COVID or having another illness have to do with employee trust?


 ... see above - I tnought you were talking about "your" office - ie. first hand. Obviously you weren't and now I can guess you made up that 30%. I can declare I don't have data as I ain't working or in the workforce but you are and so? Either you got first hand knowledge or prefer not to tell the truth.



> Maybe you're not aware of this, but some people are still interested in tracking COVID, and some workplaces are required to track COVID.


 ...I'm sure, especially employers. There's always the reason of "public duty" in doing so.



> Now I remember why I put you on ignore.


 ... but you chose not to ignore this, memory lapse notwithstanding. Why's that?


> You somehow twisted my doubt of a 100% covid claim into a management & HR problem.


 ... no, that's your thinking as if that was my intent to 'twist', I wouldn't have given you an alternative of 90%.

Let's be truthful - if any employer doesn't trust their employees in telling the truth - having Covid or not - just being sick, then there's a problem Ain't there?


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... what data as I ain't working? I thought you were talking with "data" from your office with your "30%" ... you do realize 30% is still 60% away from 90%, let alone 100%. so your 30% is just as ridiculous. Besides, the 100% reference is coming from firsthand - re andrewf's post.


To suggest all (100%) of the workplace absences are due to COVID is ridiculous.
Sure it might be possible, but I think it is very unlikely.



> ... so where did you get the 30% from, if it isn't your office? Your friend's office? From the air? From our CMO's office?


From other offices of people I know.



> ... see above - I tnought you were talking about "your" office - ie. first hand.


Obviously since I said "offices" I wasn't referring to the singular office I work in.



> Let's be truthful - if any employer doesn't trust their employees in telling the truth - having Covid or not - just being sick, then there's a problem Ain't there?


What does employee/employer trust and telling the truth have to do with the cause of absenteeism?


----------



## TomB16

It bothers me when someone takes control of a situation they don't understand. This is no less so when politicians do it.

I can't help but notice Beijing has 20% more COVID deaths than Shanghai (based on Our World in Data) but Beijing has not been locked down. This suggests a reasonable possibility they know the Shanghai lockdown is wrong but they refuse to admit it publicly and value their image above the impact to millions of people's lives.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> To suggest all (100%) of the workplace absences are due to COVID is ridiculous.
> Sure it might be possible, but I think it is very unlikely.


 ...maybe the 100% is ridiculous to you but that percentage was referenced by andrewf's and even you agree there's a "possibility" however remote or very unlikely to you. That's why I suggested the 90% to you. But then what accounts for the 10% then? To you.



> From other offices of people I know.


 ... okay fair enough. I would presume this "excludes" your office since you don't want to divulge in which case that 30% is pretty consistent among the how many offices (plural) of the people you know of? 2? 10? And I'm hard-pressed to believe this is consistently 30% amongst ALL the offices of the people you know of.



> Obviously since I said "offices" I wasn't referring to the singular office I work in.


 ... explained above.



> What does employee/employer trust and telling the truth have to do with the cause of absenteeism?


 ... very much especially in the context coming from you. Reasons being you only believe 30% of the absenteeism is due to Covid. Correct? Should this not leave 70% of the absenteeisms that arose was not due to Covid? Yes or no (and please don't tell me you don't have the "data" or your friends didn't divulge the details to you). So then for this 70%, there could be a number of other causes - I suggested the flu, the cold and the woman's monthly. You picked nothing there nor suggested anything else which indicates there're some "iffy (aka questionable)" absenteeisms in that 70% to you. Yes or no? And I can bet dollars for donuts the answer is "yes" which means management don't trust their employees. If it's no, then it's not a problem for management to pick up the slack, ain't it.

And I haven't even got to the part of positive RATs are not permissible according to you (at your workplace) since they can produce false ones. Only official positive PCR results are acceptable for being away due to Covid in which case don't even bother. Covid is only the flu to the employee but not for absenteeism. And having the flu means you have to come into work.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> It bothers me when someone takes control of a situation they don't understand. This is no less so when politicians do it.
> 
> I can't help but notice Beijing has 20% more COVID deaths than Shanghai (based on Our World in Data) but Beijing has not been locked down. This suggests a reasonable possibility they know the Shanghai lockdown is wrong but they refuse to admit it publicly and value their image above the impact to millions of people's lives.


 ... this is a Canadian (money) forum, not the People's Republic of China forum.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... this is a Canadian (money) forum, not the People's Republic of China forum.


Politics are part of COVID policy, Beaver. Not only is this a humanitarian crisis, it is having a big impact on the global economy.

I invite you to carry on building a house of twigs and branches while I comment on COVID in the COVID-19 thread.


----------



## Beaver101

> I invite you to carry on building a house of twigs and branches while I comment on COVID in the COVID-19 thread.


 ... my twigs and branches house building is being disturbed so here I am.



TomB16 said:


> Politics are part of COVID policy, Beaver. Not only is this a humanitarian crisis, it is having a big impact on the global economy.


 ... don't disagree with the first part. But I'm sorry you're kinda outdated with the second part. The slogan is now "we are all NOT in it together" and "what pandemic? " Or rather "what's a pandemic"? Heck, Covid is just a flu, no big deal.


----------



## TomB16

China is trying to control COVID in Shanghai with a savage lockdown. People are being forcibly pulled from their homes and held in quarantine camps when a apartment neighbour tests positive.

Have you tried to purchase a new car, recently? Perhaps you have been confounded at the empty lots that used to be car dealerships? Have you wondered why they can't get inventory? These germane questions are approved by Olaf Scholz.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> I'm just disputing that 100% of absenteeism is COVID, since I know offices where only 30% of absences are COVID, as confirmed by PCR tests.
> I don't have information on what the other things are, just that the data shows they aren't COVID in the few offices I have data on.
> 
> 100% is a ridiculous claim anyway, even during peak COVID there were people missing work for other things.


I didn't say all absenteeism is COVID, just that the big rise in absenteeism is definitely driven by COVID.


----------



## TomB16

Less than half of my group of friends and family are aware they had COVID. Of the rest, it is nearly certain most or nearly all of them have had COVID. Perhaps they didn't recognize or maybe didn't notice any symptoms.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> China is trying to control COVID in Shanghai with a savage lockdown. People are being forcibly pulled from their homes and held in quarantine camps when a apartment neighbour tests positive.


 ... then it's not like you don't know the Human Rights (if any) policy there. No different than Russia or North Korea. Btw, its president's term is for life and after his life, his kids' life and after his kids' life, his grandkids life and after his grandkids' life, his great grandkid's life and after his great grandkid's life, his great great grandkids' life, etc.



> Have you tried to purchase a new car, recently? Perhaps you have been confounded at the empty lots that used to be car dealerships? Have you wondered why they can't get inventory?


 ... no and it's not because I don't drive. Car parts are the least of my concern 'cause there're other BIGGER problems in life to be concerned with. First, do high gas prices, lack of grain, war in Ukraine, inflation and now monkeypox (if not etc.) not concern you? 



> These germane questions are approved by Olaf Scholz.


 ... don't know who he/she is and don't care.


----------



## londoncalling

For those who don't know but may care Olaf Schloz is the German Chancellor. Here is a link for further information.

Olaf Scholz - Wikipedia


----------



## damian13ster

List of countries worldwide with vaccine mandates for trains, buses, and planes:

China, Canada, North Korea


----------



## Beaver101

^


----------



## OneSeat

*New Issue*

I am not complaining - just commenting. I have to have an urgent medical operation in hospital tomorrow and my surgeon required me to apply on line for approval of a Covid PCR test. Wait. Wait. Wait. So I called a retired nurse who is a friend - "Oh they are not busy now just go there and explain - no approval needed now".

There were dozens people in clinical clothes lounging around on the lawns enjoying the sun. They told me to just go inside - more people hanging around with nothing to do. Left 5 minutes later with everything done.

When I got back home I had a message "We are trying to arrange this for next week because of the urgency. Will contact you soon.

And most of those doing nothing were medical people whom our hospitals need for urgent work that is not getting done. Is the best our government run system can do? Enough.


----------



## MrMatt

OneSeat said:


> Is the best our government run system can do? Enough.


Yes it is.
The other half of the system is overloaded and past the breaking point, some departments are falling apart

The problem is running complex systems is really hard.
Organizations (and individuals even) will basically basically become more and more inefficient until they fail.
The problem is that with sufficiently large organizations, their failure can be very damaging.
With governments they continue until the entire country collapses, unless someone forces them to be effective.


----------



## sags

The problem is the bottleneck at the point of treatment stage.

The surgeons and specialists are overloaded, and all the other medical staff are waiting on them to clear up backlogs.

Our son is waiting for spine surgery and there are 2500 people on the waiting list for that surgeon alone.

Our family MD is very frustrated because she can't send her patients anywhere for timely treatment.

The problem is not diagnostic clinics. We got lots of those. The problem is with the surgeons and specialists.

The government needs to bring in surgeons and specialists from around the world who want to immigrate to Canada.

They need to expand the number of residents each professional takes under their mentoring.

Medical students are graduating from school and can't find a residency anywhere in Canada.

It all boils down to money. More surgeons requires more operating rooms, more trained nurses and staff, more recovery rooms......etc.

The government just doesn't want to raise taxes to pay the cost, even though I think most Canadians would support it.


----------



## sags

Wish you all the best One Seat.

Frustrating I know, but you will be in good hands.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The problem is the bottleneck at the point of treatment stage.
> 
> The surgeons and specialists are overloaded, and all the other medical staff are waiting on them to clear up backlogs.
> 
> Our son is waiting for spine surgery and there are 2500 people on the waiting list for that surgeon alone.
> 
> Our family MD is very frustrated because she can't send her patients anywhere for timely treatment.
> 
> The problem is not diagnostic clinics. We got lots of those. The problem is with the surgeons and specialists.
> 
> The government needs to bring in surgeons and specialists from around the world who want to immigrate to Canada.
> 
> They need to expand the number of residents each professional takes under their mentoring.
> 
> Medical students are graduating from school and can't find a residency anywhere in Canada.
> 
> It all boils down to money. More surgeons requires more operating rooms, more trained nurses and staff, more recovery rooms......etc.
> 
> The government just doesn't want to raise taxes to pay the cost, even though I think most Canadians would support it.


You know I agree.
A few points

Diagnostic clinics are private, OR's and surgeons are government. 

Also the lack of residency space (another government monopoly BTW) is a problem

Seems like in YOUR experience the only part that is working fine is the privatized part.
I'm glad you at least realize the problem is that the government isn't doing a good job at running their part. I'd suggest we reduce the role of government, since they obviously aren't very good at running their part of the system.

Hey, I'm all for paying for healthcare, but they want to divert the money to drug injection sites and UBI. Or simply hand billions to Trudeaus friends.


----------



## OneSeat

Thanks for your various comments. I guess no single medical system in the world is perfect. And maybe the biggest cause of these problems is that almost everyone is living longer. 

But why were so many people hanging around doing nothing - surely they could be moved to other jobs where there are shortages - even if only temporarily.


----------



## londoncalling

I am not saying this accounts for those milling around inside but I do know a lot of health care professionals like to go outside to get some fresh air on their breaks. If I was stuck inside wearing all that PPE all day I certainly would relish the opportunity. Most nurses work 12 hour shifts and get longer breaks during the shift as they are working what many see as a work day and a half. This may not be what you experienced but don't rule it out. Do you have any idea how many staff are at that hospital at any one time?


----------



## Birder

I have a niece who is a nurse at the ER at Hamilton General Hospital. She works 3 days on (12 hour shifts) and then 4 days off. That is what their union has negotiated. She also swaps shifts with other nurses and often arranges to take a whole week off to travel - in addition to regular vacation. A couple of years ago (precovid) , both my senior parents were in and out of the hospital several times in the last year of their lives. I found the nursing staff to be "unreachable". They were too busy on their cellphones or talking to each other. I would stand at their nursing station with 3 or 4 of them yakking to each other and not even be acknowledged. Very unprofessional and very frustrating. The hospitals have also hired a lot of PSWs to do the routine care for patients, all to save money. Sorry but I am less tolerant of their complaints about being overworked. And what were these surgeons doing when all the ORs were shut down? Pretty sure they weren't taking care of covid patients or even seeing patients in person. Most family doctors are still doing remote appointments.


----------



## damian13ster

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-man-vaccine-injury-payout-1.6472636



Doesn't mention if he was coerced to hurt himself or decided to take the gamble on free will


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-man-vaccine-injury-payout-1.6472636


I was about to post the same story. Quite a serious side effect, but luckily very rare. It's also worth noting that AZ has had much higher rates of serious side effects than the Pfizer and Moderna shots. One can see a comparison of the adverse event rates in this Ontario report (PDF file).

I was opposed to AZ when it entered the mass vaccination program. Even after European countries had stopped using it, Canada was still distributing it which I think was a mistake.

The MRNA vaccines have proved to be extraordinarily safe, with very low rates of adverse events. I plan to get another MRNA shot in September, unless I catch covid before then, in which case I'd wait ~ 4 months.


----------



## sags

Not always the case but nurses have big caseloads of patients and they monitor them on cell phones that belong to the hospital.
Everything is done electronically now which is why they push carts with laptops around. The ERs are full of laptops and phones to call each other to consult, book tests, get results, move patients etc.

The days of paper charting and phones hanging on the walls all over are past.

My wife was an RN in the hospital working those 12 hour shifts. They are brutal to work. The nurses are exhausted and need those days off. My wife quit nursing and went to work in housekeeping and the kitchen for regular hours when our son arrived.

Less money but much better work life balance.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Technology just muddles that work/life balance. Which will only get worst.


----------



## TomB16

China let part of Shanghai out of COVID jail, yesterday morning. Today, they are reporting 330,000 new cases. Tuesday, they reported 128 new cases.

I'm trying to determine if they mass tested people when they released them or if they divulged this jump in cases too soon. It seems more likely, they have been misreporting the numbers and started bumping the case count a bit too soon to be believable.

It takes a couple of days to test positive, after coming in contact with COVID.

BTW, Wuhan has the ability to synthesize virus. Someone could email a file to the Wuhan lab and they could synthesize it into existence. This changes the likelihood of COVID being a lab escape versus a natural occurrence.


----------



## james4beach

Sinovac is apparently quite useless in practice, doesn't offer anywhere near the protection of the MRNA technologies.

China is in a lot of trouble. And we're all potentially in trouble, because a billion people passing COVID around is going to result in some mutations.


----------



## james4beach

Ontario is eliminating mandatory masks in hospitals.

Some hospital workers are calling this ludicrous. There are vulnerable people all over the hospitals.

No masks? WTF?


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Ontario is eliminating mandatory masks in hospitals.
> 
> Some hospital workers are calling this ludicrous. There are vulnerable people all over the hospitals.
> 
> No masks? WTF?


 ... no, it's not happening in "Toronto" hospitals. All major hospitals (UHN, SickKids,Humber River, North York General, Sunnybrook, Women's College, and Mackenzie Health) will still have mandatory maskings in place.

Ontario is lifting nearly all of its remaining mask mandates on Saturday. Some hospitals will keep them.

Can't say the same for hospitals outside of Toronto and if hospitals on the outskirt lift their masking mandate and the Covid number rises, blame it all on the ever-tax-wasting-stupid "CPO" acting like a fake "CMO". Even the Science Advisory Table says so with their disappointment in him.

'I wish they could have kept things in place a little while longer:' New science table head disagrees with lifting mask mandate in high-risk settings

As for public transit, riders can choose to keep their masks on. Even Toronto's mayor recommends it and agrees "the pandemic ain't over!"


----------



## sags

Covid infections are rising in Alberta at a higher rate than in the rest of Canada for some reason.

More people are dying from covid in Alberta than at any other time during the pandemic.

The doctors highly recommend people take all vaccine doses, including the 4th and 5th if qualified.

And there is another possible problem starting to percolate around the world. Monkeypox is spreading and there is little immunity for it among the population.

Older people may have some residual immunity from 1970s smallpox vaccines but young people have no immunity.

The authorities need to keep a close eye on that one. It is a nasty virus.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> *Covid infections are rising in Alberta at a higher rate than in the rest of Canada for some reason.
> 
> More people are dying from covid in Alberta than at any other time during the pandemic.*
> 
> The doctors highly recommend people take all vaccine doses, including the 4th and 5th if qualified.


 ... wonder why? Origination of Freedumb Convoy?



> And there is another possible problem starting to percolate around the world. Monkeypox is spreading and there is little immunity for it among the population.
> 
> Older people may have some residual immunity from 1970s smallpox vaccines but young people have no immunity.
> 
> The authorities need to keep a close eye on that one. It is a nasty virus.


 ... no chance of getting monkeypox if you don't catch Covid. If you do, then your chances of getting monkeypox just went up a few notches. 

Doesn't matter anyways, deniers of Covid will deny monkeypox exists -- even they're scratching all over. Just eewwtcy.


----------



## damian13ster

Sags, are you high again? COVID cases in Alberta are dropping, not rising. You are holding the chart upside down....


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Covid infections are rising in Alberta at a higher rate than in the rest of Canada for some reason.
> 
> More people are dying from covid in Alberta than at any other time during the pandemic.
> 
> The doctors highly recommend people take all vaccine doses, including the 4th and 5th if qualified.
> 
> And there is another possible problem starting to percolate around the world. Monkeypox is spreading and there is little immunity for it among the population.
> 
> Older people may have some residual immunity from 1970s smallpox vaccines but young people have no immunity.
> 
> The authorities need to keep a close eye on that one. It is a nasty virus.


Can you back up any of these claims?
They appear completely fabricated.

Lets take the highest death rate claim, it's a simple stat and easily proven false.








COVID-19 Alberta statistics


Interactive aggregate data on COVID-19 cases in Alberta




www.alberta.ca





The amount of outright LIES you post is astonishing. I think it's time to perma-ignore you. You're a liar and add nothing to the discussion.


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> ... no, it's not happening in "Toronto" hospitals. All major hospitals (UHN, SickKids,Humber River, North York General, Sunnybrook, Women's College, and Mackenzie Health) will still have mandatory maskings in place.
> 
> Ontario is lifting nearly all of its remaining mask mandates on Saturday. Some hospitals will keep them.
> 
> Can't say the same for hospitals outside of Toronto and if hospitals on the outskirt lift their masking mandate and the Covid number rises, blame it all on the ever-tax-wasting-stupid "CPO" acting like a fake "CMO". Even the Science Advisory Table says so with their disappointment in him.
> 
> 'I wish they could have kept things in place a little while longer:' New science table head disagrees with lifting mask mandate in high-risk settings
> 
> As for public transit, riders can choose to keep their masks on. Even Toronto's mayor recommends it and agrees "the pandemic ain't over!"


 ... continuing on the above post, the latest update:

Ontario’s top doctor not concerned about rise in COVID cases after lifting of mask mandates tomorrow

No thanks to this dumb-axxed CPO bozo.


----------



## sags

_Alberta's COVID-related death toll so far in 2022 is higher than the same period in previous years of the pandemic. 

There were 1,247 deaths between Jan. 1 and June 6 of this year, compared to 1,038 during the same time period last year and 152 in 2020. _



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-pandemic-omicron-deadliest-year-1.6481840


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Covid infections are rising in Alberta at a higher rate than in the rest of Canada for some reason.
> 
> More people are dying from covid in Alberta than at any other time during the pandemic.
> 
> The doctors highly recommend people take all vaccine doses, including the 4th and 5th if qualified.
> 
> And there is another possible problem starting to percolate around the world. Monkeypox is spreading and there is little immunity for it among the population.
> 
> Older people may have some residual immunity from 1970s smallpox vaccines but young people have no immunity.
> 
> The authorities need to keep a close eye on that one. It is a nasty virus.


'COVID infections are rising in Alberta at higher rate than in the rest of Canada for some reason'

A LIE - COVID infections in Alberta are actually falling. Chart posted in previous post.

'More people are dying from COVID in Alberta than at any other time during the pandemic.'

A LIE - the article refers to specifically jan-may period of 2021 as a comparison. There were other periods when more people were dying.

'The doctors highly recommend people take all vaccine doses, including the 4th and 5th if qualified.'

A LIE - not a single doctor recommends taking 5th dose of vaccine

'And there is another possible problem starting to percolate around the world. Monkeypox is spreading and there is little immunity for it among the population.' - 4 cases in Alberta.

Holy crap man - you are so full of **** it isn't even worth shoveling through your crap to find a sliver of truth anymore


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> _Alberta's COVID-related death toll so far in 2022 is higher than the same period in previous years of the pandemic.
> 
> There were 1,247 deaths between Jan. 1 and June 6 of this year, compared to 1,038 during the same time period last year and 152 in 2020. _
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-pandemic-omicron-deadliest-year-1.6481840


That comparison is contrived to the point of falsehood.

really you're going to bring in 2020? Where we didn't have a SINGLE death for the first third or your comparison period.


Albertas daily death rate is not the highest it's ever been, and to suggest that the death rate is the highest it's ever been is completely dishonest and misleading.

You're a lying dishonest person... back on ignore you go.


----------



## sags

Quote from the doctors working to save patients.......unless you think they are part of some global vaccine conspiracy led by Bill Gates.

_*Dr. Daniel Gregson*, infectious disease physician with the University of Calgary, says the high Omicron transmission rates coupled with Alberta's low uptake for third doses of the COVID-19 vaccine are both contributing to the *high death numbers for 2022*. 

"We're — in this current wave — seeing *more deaths per capita than Ontario and Quebec,*" said Dr. Daniel Gregson, an infectious diseases physician and associate professor at the University of Calgary's Cumming School of Medicine.

*Dr. Neeja Bakshi*, internal medicine specialist and COVID-19 unit physician in Edmonton, says *patients who are ending up in hospital are just as sick as they were during any previous wave. *

"With the Omicron wave and our removal of all restrictions, *we're seeing many more people becoming infected and as a result, we're having a bit of a large number of excess deaths relative to other years."*

There were *1,247 deaths* between Jan. 1 and June 6 of this year, compared to *1,038 *during the same time period last year and *152* in 2020.

"We've seen death from other viruses. We've seen death from influenza. *We've never seen this amount of death*," said Bakshi.

"I think *the amount is still staggering for those of us in health care to see*. That this is still a really potent virus. This is still a virus that can cause severe devastation."_


----------



## Beaver101

^ Who is more believeable? MrMatt or those physicians that you quoted above. Of course MrMatt is telling the truth and those physicians are lying ... according to MrMatt.

Btw, you're back on his Ignore List after his outright bursts or the tactic of going full offense first. Typical tactic of a very insecured (if not very confused) person.


----------



## sags

Oh no....say it ain't so Joe.......not the ignore list.

Yes, those physicians have no idea about who they are treating every day, or the family members they have to tell their loved ones didn't make it.


----------



## sags

Monkeypox may or may not become a global threat, but there is no doubt it is spreading and has already mutated into 2 variants.

What the experts say is........they don't know enough about it yet. It is a virus with a very complicated structure.









Two distinct monkeypox variants found in U.S., adding to outbreak’s mystery


Differences in the genetic sequences of U.S. monkeypox cases complicate the picture of the outbreak's origin.




www.nbcnews.com


----------



## Money172375

Ontario to stop daily reporting of COVID-19 data after more than two years


Ontario is shifting its COVID-19 data reporting from daily to weekly updates beginning next week.




toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## james4beach

I think it would be more prudent to wait until we're more confident that COVID no longer poses a significant risk.

I don't like this Public Health strategy. We now have the risk that a new variant or worse winter wave really kicks the sh*t out of us, and everything comes back: mandatory masks, capacity limits, even travel restrictions. Then the people will say "government lied to us by saying COVID is over".

This is a huge gamble by Public Health. They are gambling their legitimacy and public standing.

The message right now is: you can forget about COVID, it's no longer dangerous, we are in the clear .... and it's unwise to send that message at this point in time. Too early.


----------



## Beaver101

And this bozo is relying on the public in getting their vax (whichever # it'll be) when the overall message coming from him is "the pandemic is over!". 

Ontario's chief medical officer of health planning for round of COVID-19 boosters in the fall


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I think it would be more prudent to wait until we're more confident that COVID no longer poses a significant risk.


I think they should continue collecting and publishing the data, even though I don't think COVID poses a significant risk.



> I don't like this Public Health strategy. We now have the risk that a new variant or worse winter wave really kicks the sh*t out of us, and everything comes back: mandatory masks, capacity limits, even travel restrictions. Then the people will say "government lied to us by saying COVID is over".


Which is the exact same situation we were with BEFORE COVID19



> This is a huge gamble by Public Health. They are gambling their legitimacy and public standing.


They've already trashed their legitimacy, from the PM right on down. 
Faith in government institution is at all time lows.

I think they've damaged their credibility, which is impairing their ability to handle the monkeypox risk.



> The message right now is: you can forget about COVID, it's no longer dangerous, we are in the clear .... and it's unwise to send that message at this point in time. Too early.


Well we pretty much are in the clear.
The only real risk is that some new strain develops, but is always the risk with viruses. You've got to realize that COVID19 is just one of the latest potentially pandemic capable coronaviruses in the last few years.


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> Quote from the doctors working to save patients.......unless you think they are part of some global vaccine conspiracy led by Bill Gates.


Quotes or data without context or critical thinking just perpetuate wrong information. Both sides have done this, so I need to clarify because Sags just took quotes without though.

_



internal medicine specialist and COVID-19 unit physician in Edmonton, says *patients who are ending up in hospital are just as sick as they were during any previous wave. *

Click to expand...


Of _ course the patients who end up in the hospital are just as sick as previous. There is certain threshold that one goes to the hospital when ill, THAT has not changed though out the pandemic. You go when there are certain symptoms have escalated that need hospital treatment. The statement you bolded is as useful as someone saying the water in river as just as wet as they were in a flood.

_



"With the Omicron wave and our removal of all restrictions, *we're seeing many more people becoming infected and as a result, we're having a bit of a large number of excess deaths relative to other years."*

Click to expand...

_Yes, more people are becoming infected, but the % of death of ALL that are infected are much much lower. In the beginning it was 3.7% death rate over all, with a much higher % in the vulnerable. Right now the death rate is much lower, though one cannot tell as they have stopped tested other than in a small percentage of the population.
Yes, people are still dying. However, most of those are unvaccinated or the extremely vulnerable. 
I have been trying to find the current mortality rate and stats and there aren't very many stating ages, vacinate rate, vs severe outcomes, there will continue to be deaths, but those that are most vulnerable and those around them will for sure need to be careful, but in many cases, those dying currently have multiple co-morbidities.

_



There were *1,247 deaths* between Jan. 1 and June 6 of this year, compared to *1,038 *during the same time period last year and *152* in 2020.

Click to expand...

_This is the most misleading stat around. There were other higher periods of death in Alberta. The period IMMEDIATELY before Jan 1, 2021 was much higher. Jan 1, 2022, Alberta was enter a lock down period. If you compare three year previous it was 0 in 2019. This is just awful news reporting and research. There are so many things wrong with this stat.

You should consider looking at the research that is showing the impacts from the Covid measures. Many issues on mental health, learning and development on the young, economy, etc. I agreed with all of the health measure in the last couple of years to prevent deaths, however, if we don't move forward, society will not be able to turn around the effects of secondary impacts.


----------



## sags

The statistics were taken from the Alberta Health website, and could only compare Jan-June, because it is June 2022 and that is the only valid comparison.

What about the other quotes posted from the doctors, which I thought were deliberately direct and unambiguous.

For example:

_"We've seen death from other viruses. We've seen death from influenza. *We've never seen this amount of death*," said Bakshi.

"I think *the amount is still staggering for those of us in health care to see*. That this is still a really potent virus. This is still a virus that can cause severe devastation."_


----------



## sags

I think the doctor who said patients are just as sick as previous waves of covid, is an attempt to dispel the myth that Omicron is a mild virus.

Only *38% of Albertans* had the 3rd vaccine shot, which doctors say is a major factor in the rising numbers of infections and deaths.

The death rates are also higher in nearly all age groups.......for those with less than 3 vaccine shots.

The solution to reopening the economy and removing restrictions is a higher rate of 3rd and 4th vaccinations.

_The latest Alberta Health statistics show that, over the last 120 days, *death rates are higher in nearly all age groups among unvaccinated people and those who've had two immunizations compared to those who've had three doses.*

"Unfortunately, individual choice often leads to poor choices in not updating your immunization. Our biggest bump in vaccines … have been with the implementation of restrictions on people who aren't fully vaccinated."

The number of daily COVID-related deaths has dropped in recent weeks but the baseline for both deaths and hospitalizations remains stubbornly high ._


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Well we pretty much are in the clear.


No, I think you're misreading the situation.

Look at the CP24 story posted by Beaver. I've been saying this for months... things could get pretty bad in the fall/winter. Combination of waning immunity plus weaker general health in the winter months during cold & flu season. So far the new (sub) variants are OK but there's also the risk of new variants which evade existing immunity.

Everyone is just more vulnerable in the winter. Plus, children are spreading COVID like wildfire. They will go back to school in Sept and drive a new wave, just as human resilience and immunity weakens with cold & flu season.

Both BC and ON health authorities are predicting worse conditions in the fall/winter. They already know it's coming, Hospitals could easily get overloaded again.


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> I think the doctor who said patients are just as sick as previous waves of covid, is an attempt to dispel the myth that Omicron is a mild virus.


It depends on how one defines 'mild'. Most definately people are still dying from it, but not like in the early days or pre-vaccine days when someone over 70 (or 75) had almost a 24% mortality rate. Most definitely there are those still dying, but the percentage is MUCH MUCH lower. 



> Only 38% of Albertans had the 3rd vaccine shot, which doctors say is a major factor in the rising numbers of infections and deaths.
> The death rates are also higher in nearly all age groups.......for those with less than 3 vaccine shots.
> The solution to reopening the economy and removing restrictions is a higher rate of 3rd and 4th vaccinations.
> 
> _The latest Alberta Health statistics show that, over the last 120 days, *death rates are higher in nearly all age groups among unvaccinated people and those who've had two immunizations compared to those who've had three doses.*_


True the rates are lower, but if you look at who is eligible (over 5) then it's closer to 50%, then if if you take the population who is primarily in the hospitals it's the above 50 crowd and those with co-morbidities, many of them have their 3rd and 4th dose.

Looking at the stats right now 52.45% of the people in the hospital HAVE 3 or more doses. What does that tell you? That they are at the higher risk groups. 

At this point, if the hospitals are no longer overwhelmed which was the main reason to flatten the curve, I am okay with removing general restrictions. I am fine with masks in hospital or high risk settings, I still have the choice to social distance, and go out or not. I still try to have lower risk behaviors because my mom is in a LTC and I help with my elderly dad, but I see the bigger impacts on my kids and their friends that we need to move forward.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> No, I think you're misreading the situation.
> 
> Look at the CP24 story posted by Beaver. I've been saying this for months... things could get pretty bad in the fall/winter. Combination of waning immunity plus weaker general health in the winter months during cold & flu season. So far the new (sub) variants are OK but there's also the risk of new variants which evade existing immunity.
> 
> Everyone is just more vulnerable in the winter. Plus, children are spreading COVID like wildfire. They will go back to school in Sept and drive a new wave, just as human resilience and immunity weakens with cold & flu season.
> 
> Both BC and ON health authorities are predicting worse conditions in the fall/winter. They already know it's coming, Hospitals could easily get overloaded again.


 ,,, I don't blame MrMatt as the general public for thinking that way with his earlier message:



> _MrMatt said:
> Well we pretty much are in the clear._


 ... given the message coming from our bozo CPO aka fake CMO. Walking reactively and yet talk like being proactive. We'll deal with it "when it happens" ... like the pandemic didn't exists for more than 2 years. And this is coming from a medical expert bozo.


----------



## sags

_Both BC and ON health authorities are predicting worse conditions in the fall/winter. They already know it's coming, Hospitals could easily get overloaded again. _

The people working in hospitals, LTC homes and retirement homes are done. It has been a long couple of years and they are worn out.

All the government promises for more help came and went without any improvement in the situation.

My wife is working more than she ever has and the employer can't find new employees anywhere. Now there is a labor shortage all over.

I hope we don't see a big wave in the fall.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> ... _I hope we don't see a big wave in the fall._


 ...our (Ontario's) bozo CMO is gonna to ensure that with "his" "vax" compaign in the fall.  LMAO.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> No, I think you're misreading the situation.


I think you are



> Look at the CP24 story posted by Beaver. I've been saying this for months... things could get pretty bad in the fall/winter.


Yes.



> Combination of waning immunity plus weaker general health in the winter months during cold & flu season. So far the new (sub) variants are OK but there's also the risk of new variants which evade existing immunity.


You've AGAIN missed my point.
There have ALWAYS been the risk of new variants.
What do you think COVID19 other than a new variant of coronavirus? What do you think SARS and MERS were?



> Everyone is just more vulnerable in the winter. Plus, children are spreading COVID like wildfire. They will go back to school in Sept and drive a new wave, just as human resilience and immunity weakens with cold & flu season.
> 
> Both BC and ON health authorities are predicting worse conditions in the fall/winter. They already know it's coming, Hospitals could easily get overloaded again.


The less lethal variants and strains being spread now may actually help the situation. We have basically given up on finding an effective vaccine, go back, I called this 2 years ago.
What did the experts say, Coronaviruses mutate too fast to develop a vaccine, guess what we found, coronaviruses mutate too fast to develop effective vaccines. At the same time our political leaders lied about the vaccine ending this.

The reality our hospitals are no longer overloaded, people aren't dying at a high rate, and there is virtually zero support for continued lockdown.

The reasonable action to take today is monitoring. The government wasted their credibility on late stage COVID, which is hurting our monkeypox response, and will hurt any future COVID response.
This outbreak was managed okay, but the poor aspects have significantly damaged credibility of our government and institutions.

The right path forward is to monitor and support. Flogging a dead horse with pointless restrictions is a waste of resources.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> ...
> 
> The less lethal variants and strains being spread now may actually help the situation. We have basically given up on finding an effective vaccine, go back, I called this 2 years ago.
> *What did the experts say, Coronaviruses mutate too fast to develop a vaccine, guess what we found, coronaviruses mutate too fast to develop effective vaccines. At the same time our political leaders lied about the vaccine ending this*.


 ... excuse my interlude here but what's with our CMO bozo's to ramp up the vax in the fall (of 2022) for when he basically suggested "the pandemic is over" with lifting of the masks restriction? 



> The reality our hospitals are no longer overloaded, people aren't dying at a high rate, and there is virtually zero support for continued lockdown.


 ... ah, now the lead back to "lockdown". Are you having nightmares on that? Yeah, the Covid death rate has dropped but has the hospital "non-elective" surgeries "back-logs" been fixed? Has our politicians or wannabee medical experts addressed that multi-years "back-log" yet, let alone a fix?????!!!!!!



> The reasonable action to take today is monitoring. The government wasted their credibility on late stage COVID, which is hurting our monkeypox response, and will hurt any future COVID response.


 ... monitoring? Wasn't that the case all along? As now with monkeypox? Why are you so alarmed with the "poor" monkeypox monitor response versus Covid when the former doesn't spread so easily and quickly as the latter? This is like saying an airborne disease is less lethal than one that isn't. I think you got your prorities switched if not mixed up here.


> This outbreak was managed okay, but the poor aspects have significantly damaged credibility of our government and institutions.


 ... yes, you can say thanks to the prudent public adults taking responsibility for themselves. The government can only provide guidance and if you believe they will be taking care of you ... there're gold nuggets in them Florida swamplands. 



> The right path forward is to monitor and support.


 ... yeah, continuous monitoring which has now become "invisible" (in Ontario) ... LMAO ... see post #2601 from Money. 



> Flogging a dead horse with pointless restrictions is a waste of resources.


 .. then the bozo CMO of Ontario needs to resign. We don't need a fake CMO wasting our valuable tax dollars telling us what we the public already knows.


----------



## damian13ster

How exactly is it hurting monkeypox response?
What exactly would you have them do that they aren't doing now?
Other than report where the source/outbreak is, but the reason for lack of reporting isn't Covid, it is not to stigmatize parts of society


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> How exactly is it hurting monkeypox response?


 ... ask your senior MrMatt. He was the one kicking up the fuss about continuous focus on Covid as overshadowing monkeypox.



> What exactly would you have them do that they aren't doing now?


 ... so what exactly are they doing now? Please do tell. 



> Other than report where the source/outbreak is, but the reason for lack of reporting isn't Covid, it is not to stigmatize parts of society


 ... huh? Covid stigmatizes society? Are you sure you used coffeemate in your coffee today and not some other powder?


----------



## Birder

No, he meant that reporting on monkeypox stigmatizes that "community of men who have sex with men".


Beaver101 said:


> ... huh? Covid stigmatizes society? Are you sure you used coffeemate in your coffee today and not some other powder?


----------



## Birder

james4beach said:


> Combination of waning immunity plus weaker general health in the winter months during cold & flu season.


Don't forget that the current vaccine basically offers little to no protection against omicron. I know more than one person who has had 4 doses and still caught omicron. Do you usually go around worrying that you are going to get a cold or flu in the winter? I do not and I have not had a flu shot since 2007 as the last one gave me laryngitis! Based on the generally low uptake of the annual flu shot, I suspect most people do not worry about getting the flu.


----------



## Beaver101

Birder said:


> No, he meant that reporting on monkeypox stigmatizes that "community of men who have sex with men".


 ... by golly, is he for real? He must be flipping over (aka deluding in his head with that notion of stigmatization) with this latest public reporting on first priority of the vax with certain segments of the population:

Toronto bathhouse workers among first to be offered monkeypox vaccine



> _CP24, Saturday, June 11, 2022
> 
> *A concerted effort is now underway to curb the spread of monkeypox in Toronto.*
> 
> *Starting tomorrow, the first of several community-based vaccine clinics will be held in the city. This initial clinic will specifically be for workers at Toronto bathhouses.
> 
> Run by Toronto Public Health (TPH) in partnership with Gay Men's Sexual Health Alliance (GMSH) and other community organizations, *the goal of this program is to offer protection to those who have had close contact with someone who has tested positive for monkeypox, those with high risk contacts, and those who have a higher risk of being exposed to the virus.
> 
> ..._


 ... maybe it's time damian13ster sue CP24 news for that kind of stigmatizing reporting.


----------



## Birder

Beaver101 said:


> ... by golly, is he for real? He must be flipping over (aka deluding in his head with that notion of stigmatization) with this latest public reporting on first priority of the vax with certain segments of the population:
> 
> Toronto bathhouse workers among first to be offered monkeypox vaccine
> 
> ... maybe it's time damian13ster sue CP24 news for that kind of stigmatizing reporting.


Well, if they were really being transparent, they would report age, gender and vaccine status of those who have monkeypox but they clearly are not.


----------



## Beaver101

Birder said:


> Well, if they were really being transparent, they would report age, gender and vaccine status of those who have monkeypox but they clearly are not.


 ... that's because monkeypox is not widely transmittable. They don't have sufficient data for that kind of reporting. They have already reported the age and gender of the first 2/4 cases known in Toronto - all men in their 30s/40s. In fact, they already reported 2 places in TO where others may have been exposed to monkeypox - a club and a bar (with names) in downtown Toronto.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> How exactly is it hurting monkeypox response?


Their reaction to COVID19, pursuit of bad policies, and outright lies have significantly damaged their credibility.



> What exactly would you have them do that they aren't doing now?


Not much, except most people don't care what they have to say.

The Federal COVID19 response was a mix of lies, too little too late, and then too much too late.
Instead of meaningful discussion and debate on managing the crisis they tried again and again to use it for political gain.

Is a widespread pox pandemic a concern, yes.
Are actions required today, likely not.
If it becomes bad that restrictions of some sort are required, do you think they have the political capital to implement them when needed, or will they have to wait for it to get much worse before public opinion will support them?


----------



## fstamand

MrMatt said:


> Their reaction to COVID19, pursuit of bad policies, and outright lies have significantly damaged their credibility.
> 
> 
> Not much, except most people don't care what they have to say.
> 
> The Federal COVID19 response was a mix of lies, too little too late, and then too much too late.
> Instead of meaningful discussion and debate on managing the crisis they tried again and again to use it for political gain.
> 
> Is a widespread pox pandemic a concern, yes.
> Are actions required today, likely not.
> If it becomes bad that restrictions of some sort are required, do you think they have the political capital to implement them when needed, or will they have to wait for it to get much worse before public opinion will support them?


How would you have handled the situation?


----------



## MrMatt

fstamand said:


> How would you have handled the situation?


I bet this is a troll, but 

I would not have sent our pandemic stockpiles to China.
I would not have said that there is no evidence masks protect against a respiratory virus, when such evidence existed.
I would have closed the borders to nonessential travel.
I would have implemented mandatory quarantines for cross border travel for a time.
I would not have been travelling between provinces in violation of public health guidelines
I would not have encouraged and participated in large gatherings when they were prohibited under public health guidelines
I would not have said we'd have vaccines for the whole country when we knew we wouldn't
I would not have said a vaccine will get us back to normal.
I would not have infringed on the medical autonomy of people.
I would not have demonized those I disagreed with.
I would not have tried to use the pandemic emergency to gain political power.
I would not use pandemic measures to limit democratic participation.
I would not insist on pandemic control measure with little benefit, or scientific evidence to support them, once such data became available.


which of the things that I would do differently do you disagree with?


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> I don't blame MrMatt as the general public for thinking that way with his earlier message:


You're right, it's the health authorities which are giving the all clear -- which is improper IMO.

For god sake, we have children experiencing weird liver disease and some even having liver failure, potentially related to COVID infections. Scientists haven't yet figured out what's causing it, and COVID is on the table. This is why we need more time, to figure out what we're dealing with.

And yet we let kids go around, all of them catching COVID, while we pretend it's OK.

Earlier our society decided "f*ck the elderly", but I guess we're now also saying "who gives a sh*t about the children and their tiny livers"

Liver problems from COVID as been observed in adults (here's a new paper) and children, where the children are possibly more susceptible to harm which could explain the weirdly high rates of hepatitis and even liver failure. *This is potentially serious guys -- we are NOT in the clear.*


----------



## Beaver101

Re post #2624 - poster responding to a troll with "eleven" responses of "I would not have done ... this." when asked what would you "have done". Only 2 of the latter. Amazing. Fail.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> You're right, it's the health authorities which are giving the all clear -- which is improper IMO.
> 
> For god sake, we have children experiencing weird liver disease and some even having liver failure, potentially related to COVID infections. Scientists haven't yet figured out what's causing it, and COVID is on the table. This is why we need more time, to figure out what we're dealing with.
> 
> And yet we let kids go around, all of them catching COVID, while we pretend it's OK.
> 
> Earlier our society decided "f*ck the elderly", but I guess we're now also saying "who gives a sh*t about the children and their tiny livers"


 ... that's why I keep calling Ontario's current CMO is a bozo. He should have been fired if not resign for doing what? Other than to keep sucking in our tax dollars. 

But then there's those who will disagree and says he's doing a fabulous job (sucking in those tax dollars) and kissing his boss's axx.


----------



## fstamand

MrMatt said:


> I bet this is a troll, but
> 
> I would not have sent our pandemic stockpiles to China.
> I would not have said that there is no evidence masks protect against a respiratory virus, when such evidence existed.
> I would have closed the borders to nonessential travel.
> I would have implemented mandatory quarantines for cross border travel for a time.
> I would not have been travelling between provinces in violation of public health guidelines
> I would not have encouraged and participated in large gatherings when they were prohibited under public health guidelines
> I would not have said we'd have vaccines for the whole country when we knew we wouldn't
> I would not have said a vaccine will get us back to normal.
> I would not have infringed on the medical autonomy of people.
> I would not have demonized those I disagreed with.
> I would not have tried to use the pandemic emergency to gain political power.
> I would not use pandemic measures to limit democratic participation.
> I would not insist on pandemic control measure with little benefit, or scientific evidence to support them, once such data became available.
> 
> 
> which of the things that I would do differently do you disagree with?


I'm not trying to disagree, I was very sceptical at first, then people around me got it and saw how bad it has become. We have not been hit with a pandemic like this in a very long time and it caught all governments by surprise.

I actually agree with most of what you said, and I think most was tried by governments, sometimes too late (not just Trudeau!).

It was a balancing act with how much health care centers could take (and for me and my surroundings, I'm glad health care is not privatized).

I find that Ford and Kenney made critical errors trying to open up too fast. Was it for political reasons? Perhaps. Peer pressure by businesses would be a better explanation.

I also think Higgs had the right idea in N-B. The east coast had a great track record during the first 3 waves).

I find this pandemic brought out the worst of what we've become as a society. Putting ourselves first and not caring about spreading it to others, akin to the truckers "protest" in the height of omicron. The real manifestation should have came from the health care workers who took several bullets for us. My 2c


----------



## james4beach

This paper from two days ago is more significant than I first thought.

New study on long COVID in children shows severe liver damage in several kids who recovered from COVID. The study also rejected other major known causes of liver diseases, which helps narrow down COVID as the cause.
​We report five pediatric patients who recovered from COVID-19 and later presented with liver injury. Two types of clinical presentation were distinguishable. *Two infants aged 3 and 5 months, previously healthy, presented with acute liver failure that rapidly progressed to liver transplantation*. Their liver explant showed massive necrosis with cholangiolar proliferation and lymphocytic infiltrate. Three children, two aged 8 years and one aged 13 years, presented with hepatitis with cholestasis. Two children had a liver biopsy significant for lymphocytic portal and parenchyma inflammation, along with bile duct proliferations. All three were started on steroid treatment; liver enzymes improved, and they were weaned successfully from treatment. For all five patients, extensive etiology workup for infectious and metabolic etiologies were negative.​​


----------



## james4beach

But who gives a sh*t about children anyway? I mean we already don't care what happens to the elderly, or the very ill, or the cancer patients, or the healthcare workers, or the burned out doctors, or the nurses with PTSD.

Everyone knows that the only people who matter are healthy adults aged 20 to 60 who don't work in medicine.

Everyone else can go to hell! Bill wants to drink at a bar and Janet wants a 200-person wedding. We can't let a whiny elderly woman or whiny child with a failing liver get in the way.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> And yet we let kids go around, all of them catching COVID, while we pretend it's OK.





james4beach said:


> This paper from two days ago is more significant than I first thought.
> *Two infants aged 3 and 5 months, previously healthy, presented with acute liver failure that rapidly progressed to liver transplantation*.


Ahh, a year after "COVID vaccine for everyone", and the people being hurt are those with no vaccine.

I'm not sure what you're proposing? 
Do you want to lock everyone down? 

Not going to happen. The government has been lying so much for so long I don't think the public will believe them.
We'd have to go to incredibly draconian measures to enforce a lockdown, and that simply won't happen.

I'd love to see Trudeau shred his credibility by calling for a national lockdown, it might finally be the thing to get him out of office.


----------



## sags

James.....some people are quite comfortable allowing others to shoulder the risk.

I agree that people will likely not follow any future health restrictions, at least until they see people start dropping dead in the streets.

If we get a deadly pandemic some day......it is going to get really ugly. Every man for himself.....level of ugly.

Do people think healthcare workers are going to stick around to treat them ? Lol....they will be gone hibernating with their families like everyone else.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> I bet this is a troll, but
> 
> I would not have sent our pandemic stockpiles to China.
> I would not have said that there is no evidence masks protect against a respiratory virus, when such evidence existed.
> I would have closed the borders to nonessential travel.
> I would have implemented mandatory quarantines for cross border travel for a time.
> I would not have been travelling between provinces in violation of public health guidelines
> I would not have encouraged and participated in large gatherings when they were prohibited under public health guidelines
> I would not have said we'd have vaccines for the whole country when we knew we wouldn't
> I would not have said a vaccine will get us back to normal.
> I would not have infringed on the medical autonomy of people.
> I would not have demonized those I disagreed with.
> I would not have tried to use the pandemic emergency to gain political power.
> I would not use pandemic measures to limit democratic participation.
> I would not insist on pandemic control measure with little benefit, or scientific evidence to support them, once such data became available.
> 
> 
> which of the things that I would do differently do you disagree with?


some I could agree but on the whole I am glad you weren't in charge.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> If we get a deadly pandemic some day......it is going to get really ugly. Every man for himself.....level of ugly.
> 
> Do people think healthcare workers are going to stick around to treat them ? Lol....they will be gone hibernating with their families like everyone else.


sags this is why I really want us, as a society, to be responsible here.

I'm not getting any younger and there will likely be another pandemic in my lifetime. I don't want to get left hanging / abandoned, because the healthcare workers will remember how much disrespect they got during covid.

It's in all of our best interests to make doctors and nurses happy. If that means a bit more inconvenience for us SO BE IT. We need to show respect to the people working the hard jobs.


----------



## james4beach

By the way, wealthy Americans don't worry much about covid. That's because they can start on paxlovid as soon as they catch it. I was talking with a wealthy American friend tonight, seems he just caught covid from his kid (everyone catches it from their kids).

Contacted his doc, started on paxlovid the next day. This is why the American business community is so relaxed about COVID.

But we don't have that same capability here. How the hell does one even get on paxlovid? You need to start it within a couple days of symptoms. Has anyone here ever gotten on paxlovid?


----------



## damian13ster

I am starting to see pattern in your posts:

Should negotiate with Russia!
- Are you willing to change the borders?
Don't know but they need to negotiate with Russia
- But Russia wants nothing else but part of Ukraine
Don't know, specialists should figure it out.

Now the same pattern.

Are you capable of thinking for yourself?
Do you realize that the end doesn't always justify the means?

If we were to listen to you we would end up in World War 3, mass suicides, economic crash having people jump off the buildings 

3 children having to go through liver treatment is not fun - in fact, it is quite sad.
It isn't enough though to destroy livelihoods, economy, well-being of humanity, shut down everything until the end of time.

Coronaviruses were here since the beginning of time and they will be here long after we are gone. And there was always risk of mutation going in a bad direction - we have accepted that risk since the beginning of time and we will accept it until the end of it - the only difference is we were doing it without mass hysteria and chicken-littles running around calling to stop all life and yelling nazis at everyone that disagrees with them


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> some I could agree but on the whole I am glad you weren't in charge.


Yeah, I get it, you don't like me. But while I can clearly list several items I think were wrong with the governments response and how I would have done better, you can't seem to improve on mine, or even offer criticism.

Good to know that it's personal, not professional.

I think that's one of the fundamental differences in psychology, I care about results and what's best for society. You care if you like the person.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Contacted his doc, started on paxlovid the next day. This is why the American business community is so relaxed about COVID.
> 
> But we don't have that same capability here. How the hell does one even get on paxlovid? You need to start it within a couple days of symptoms. Has anyone here ever gotten on paxlovid?


I doubt it, while it's been approved for use, good luck getting a doctors appointment here in time.

The US health care system is more expensive, but if you have good insurance it's better. Lifesaving drugs are actually accessible.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Yeah, I get it, you don't like me. But while I can clearly list several items I think were wrong with the governments response and how I would have done better, you can't seem to improve on mine, or even offer criticism.
> 
> Good to know that it's personal, not professional.
> 
> I think that's one of the fundamental differences in psychology, I care about results and what's best for society. You care if you like the person.


basically you are proposing a total lockdown approach. As a person who believes in reasonable personal freedom I cannot accept that. The whole USA/Canada border restrictions with the benefit of time were a basic waste and a useless hassle. They did nothing to abate covid . It was great for airport prison hotels and bureaucrats and power hunger border agents.


----------



## Beaver101

fstamand said:


> ...
> 
> *I find this pandemic brought out the worst of what we've become as a society. * Putting ourselves first and not caring about spreading it to others, akin to the truckers "protest" in the height of omicron. The real manifestation should have came from the health care workers who took several bullets for us. My 2c


 ... that truth summary should be priceless, not your 2c.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> But who gives a sh*t about children anyway? I mean we already don't care what happens to the elderly, or the very ill, or the cancer patients, or the healthcare workers, or the burned out doctors, or the nurses with PTSD.
> 
> Everyone knows that the only people who matter are healthy adults aged 20 to 60 who don't work in medicine.
> 
> Everyone else can go to hell! Bill wants to drink at a bar and Janet wants a 200-person wedding. We can't let a whiny elderly woman or whiny child with a failing liver get in the way.


 ... and some people are not made to be parents in the first place. Other animals do better.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> James.....some people are quite comfortable allowing others to shoulder the risk.
> 
> I agree that people will likely not follow any future health restrictions, at least until they see people start dropping dead in the streets.
> 
> If we get a deadly pandemic some day......it is going to get really ugly. Every man for himself.....level of ugly.
> 
> Do people think healthcare workers are going to stick around to treat them ?* Lol....they will be gone hibernating with their families like everyone else.*


 ... yeah, like thinking about building bunkers now and equipping them with guns and ammos.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> By the way, wealthy Americans don't worry much about covid. That's because they can start on paxlovid as soon as they catch it. I was talking with a wealthy American friend tonight, seems he just caught covid from his kid (everyone catches it from their kids).
> 
> Contacted his doc, started on paxlovid the next day. This is why the American business community is so relaxed about COVID.
> 
> But we don't have that same capability here. How the hell does one even get on paxlovid? You need to start it within a couple days of symptoms. Has anyone here ever gotten on paxlovid?


 .... you need a doctor's referral and I'm sure there's a list of "requirements" to qualify. Luck of the draw I say given its scarcity. 

For the average non-anti-vaxxing Joe, better to get the vax instead than wait for such "qualifications" (aka bureaucracy). Only someone who "believes" in the miracle of God and that they're either super-lucky or invincible would wait for this med to fight Covid. What emergency? Duh.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> But who gives a sh*t about children anyway? I mean we already don't care what happens to the elderly, or the very ill, or the cancer patients, or the healthcare workers, or the burned out doctors, or the nurses with PTSD.
> 
> Everyone knows that the only people who matter are healthy adults aged 20 to 60 who don't work in medicine.
> 
> Everyone else can go to hell! Bill wants to drink at a bar and Janet wants a 200-person wedding. We can't let a whiny elderly woman or whiny child with a failing liver get in the way.


Sure, no one cares about kids and the elderly just because they don't want all of society locked down.

My elderly parents with health issues had no problem staying home when they thought it was unsafe to go out. They also had no problem with healthy younger people going out if they wanted. It's only overbearing govt and people like you who demand drastic measures that do more harm than good.

Go lock yourself in the basement until you feel safe. The rest of us have a life.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> basically you are proposing a total lockdown approach. As a person who believes in reasonable personal freedom I cannot accept that. The whole USA/Canada border restrictions with the benefit of time were a basic waste and a useless hassle. They did nothing to abate covid . It was great for airport prison hotels and bureaucrats and power hunger border agents.


No, I'm not proposing a total lockdown.

At the time that we had an unknown, untreatable, highly contagious disease with a 3% fatality rate, and very few domestic cases.
Yes, I think it was prudent to shut down the border to nonessential traffic at that time.

Maybe it was wrong, but it was widely agreed that it was the correct policy, my issue is that the government NEVER implemented those restrictions and lied about doing so. I would have actually implemented them.


Personal freedom is a thing, and I think restrictions on travel are appropriate when you have a certain fatality rate from a disease, I'd be glad to debate at exactly which number which tradeoffs are appropriate, but I think we can agree when it is dangerous enough (maybe 1%, maybe 10%, maybe 90%) some restrictions are appropriate. If it's low (as it is now) I don't think restrictions are appropriate.


I'm open to debate on the exact CFR that justifies lockdown, and we had that debate, and most people agreed 3%-5% was enough for these measures.


----------



## james4beach

HappilyRetired said:


> Sure, no one cares about kids and the elderly just because they don't want all of society locked down.


What with you people and "locking down"? What an obsession.

Requiring sensible precautions, like masks in crowded public areas, and limiting density of gatherings during high-risk periods, has nothing to do with locking things down.

This seems to be a right wing thing, to immediately pout at any suggestion society should be careful about COVID and scream about lock downs. You right wingers are so dramatic.


----------



## Beaver101

^ They are having "nightmares" of lockdowns. Even the word "lockdown" sends them screaming on this forum.


----------



## Birder

I still say the vaccination does not work against omicron. Wonder if our fearless leader has been following those sensible precautions James is speaking of?





__





CityNews







toronto.citynews.ca


----------



## Spudd

Birder said:


> I still say the vaccination does not work against omicron. Wonder if our fearless leader has been following those sensible precautions James is speaking of?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CityNews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.citynews.ca


It's shown that it doesn't work to prevent infection with omicron. But it does work to prevent severe outcomes, though somewhat less so without the booster it seems. 








3 COVID vaccine doses appear to protect against Omicron subvariants


One study finds 3-dose protection against severe BA.1 and BA.2 disease remaining above 80%.




www.cidrap.umn.edu


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> By the way, wealthy Americans don't worry much about covid. That's because they can start on paxlovid as soon as they catch it. I was talking with a wealthy American friend tonight, seems he just caught covid from his kid (everyone catches it from their kids).
> 
> Contacted his doc, started on paxlovid the next day. This is why the American business community is so relaxed about COVID.
> 
> But we don't have that same capability here. How the hell does one even get on paxlovid? You need to start it within a couple days of symptoms. Has anyone here ever gotten on paxlovid?


It's not just for the rich, it is most effective in during a very short time period and for those who are most vulnerable or at high risk of developing severe outcomes. The process is not very hard, a confirmed rapid test, contact doctor, take within less than 5 days of symptoms. The challenge is making sure that it is an appropriate treatment as it can interact quite severely with other medications and that it makes sense for a person to take Paxil. It's also challenging to see a doctor while you have symptoms, as many will not see you. 

The logistic of getting a rapid fast enough, seeing a doctor within the time frame (if they will see you) to get a prescription, then finding a pharmacies that carries the drug, and getting it filled is the challenge. What we did for my dad, is spoke to his family doctor ahead of time, and discussed if he would be a good candidate. Then we had the doctor put it on file the pharmacy that we would go to and confirm that the pharmacy has supply. My dad has rapid tests at home. In the event that he tests positive, we will immediately call my dad's doctor, and prescription will be sent over. We tried to get the prescription filled ahead of time, just in case, and at that time it wasn't allowed. For the rest of our family, we all did the same thing and had the conversations with our doctors, for everyone, pretty much it didn't make sense for us to take it. My mom who is the one exception, has medical conflicts, but others at her home can get it right away, as they have it already at the sight. 

If it's a really concern, it has nothing to do with money here, but just some pre thought and preparation.


----------



## Beaver101

Birder said:


> I still say the vaccination does not work against omicron. Wonder if our fearless leader has been following those sensible precautions James is speaking of?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CityNews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.citynews.ca


 ... probably not or the precautions "slipped" his mind. His globe hoppings don't exactly reduce his chances of catching it either.


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> If it's a really concern, it has nothing to do with money here, but just some pre thought and preparation.


I should clarify, in Canada I agree it's not a money issue (but the awkwardness of getting the prescription in time).

I meant that in the US, it's become the easy COVID solution for the wealthy. Poorer Americans don't really get access to clinics like that and don't have easy access to doctors.


----------



## james4beach

The vaccine requirement for air travel is going to be lifted any moment.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/government-end-vax-mandates-1.6487585


----------



## damian13ster

Hope the court case still goes through - we live in common law country.
Precedent needs to be set and people who violated Section 6 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms need to be punished


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> The vaccine requirement for air travel is going to be lifted any moment.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/government-end-vax-mandates-1.6487585


What will the anti-vaxxers rage about once they lose this hobby horse?


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> What will the anti-vaxxers rage about once they lose this hobby horse?


Oh I'm sure they'll come up with something.


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> ... that's because monkeypox is not widely transmittable. They don't have sufficient data for that kind of reporting. They have already reported the age and gender of the first 2/4 cases known in Toronto - all men in their 30s/40s. In fact, they already reported 2 places in TO where others may have been exposed to monkeypox - a club and a bar (with names) in downtown Toronto.


 ... for folks who have "moved on" to monkeypox now that Covid is considered "over" (for them that is). 

Here're more details the latest at June 14, 2022, reporting for/from Toronto:

There are now 18 cases of monkeypox confirmed in Toronto

_



Katherine DeClerq, CTV News Toronto Multi-Platform Writer
Published Monday, June 13, 2022, Last Updated Tuesday, June 14, 2022 

Toronto confirmed seven additional cases of monkeypox on Monday.
*Public Health officials say the new cases bring the total number of confirmed infections to 18.* Twenty-three other cases are currently under investigation.

Over the weekend the city started the first of several community-vased vaccine clinics targeting those who have had close contact with someone who has tested positive for monkeypox, as well as those with high risk contacts, and those who have a higher risk of being exposed to the virus.

The vaccine was approved by Health Canada in 2020 and is approved for individuals aged 18 and up.

*Monkeypox is a virus that spreads through contact with body fluids, as well as prolonged face-to-face contact or skin-to-skin contact with a lesion.*

Those infected will generally start experiencing a general feeling of being unwell, including symptoms such as fever, muscle aches, and swollen lymph nodes.

A couple of days later a rash may appear, typically on the face. Health officials have said the rash start off with small red bumps such as the chickenpox, but then the lesions fill with clear fluid and can spread to the rest of the body.

The first Toronto vaccination clinic is specifically for workers at Toronto bathhouses. It’s run by Toronto Public Health (TPH) in partnership with Gay Men's Sexual Health Alliance (GMSH) and other community organizations.

Click to expand...

_ ... just reading this gives me the itches.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> I should clarify, in Canada I agree it's not a money issue (but the awkwardness of getting the prescription in time).
> 
> I meant that in the US, it's become the easy COVID solution for the wealthy. Poorer Americans don't really get access to clinics like that and don't have easy access to doctors.


they have testing centres EVERY


james4beach said:


> I should clarify, in Canada I agree it's not a money issue (but the awkwardness of getting the prescription in time).
> 
> I meant that in the US, it's become the easy COVID solution for the wealthy. Poorer Americans don't really get access to clinics like that and don't have easy access to doctors.


For COVID testing in the US it is readily available to TO ALL much more than it was here. You can literally walk off the street to a pharmacy, or center and pick a pack of COVID test. There were testing centres EVERYWHERE. This was the case for almost a year, compared to Canada where tests were really difficult to come by. I got some of my tests from family in the US in the beginning. 

Though poorer Americans do not have access to Dr's,, even wealthier ones cannot just take the drug if they don't meet the requirements. It actually is not any easier of a solution for wealtheir americans than it is for average canadians here. I don't think it was very accurate to try and turn this into a wealth issue.


----------



## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> This seems to be a right wing thing, to immediately pout at any suggestion society should be careful about COVID and scream about lock downs. You right wingers are so dramatic.


It's more than that. It's more of looking at things in absolutes. It was either the vaccine works 100% for 100% of the people or it's useless, but somehow 90% isn't good enough. It's either complete lockdown, or completely open without restrictions. Just the other day, some guy yelled at us for wearing masks saying the pandemic is over. Without mask mandates, I don't care if others wear masks, but I don't care if you think I shouldn't any more.


----------



## HappilyRetired

andrewf said:


> What will the anti-vaxxers rage about once they lose this hobby horse?


It's not a vaccine.


----------



## sags

I ask myself......why is China willing to shut down their economy in an effort to control covid ?


----------



## Beaver101

^ Reply to post #2659: It's the mentality of "its okay for me to do what I want" but "not okay for you to do your thing". As a start, selfishness is ingrained there - part of their DNA.

And why are those anti-maskers screaming at you? Are they looking for a charge of some sorts?


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> I ask myself......why is China willing to shut down their economy in an effort to control covid ?


 ... simple, it's priorty - health or money? Besides, they can afford to.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Obviously a person that makes a comment, that someone wearing a mask should not, is ignorant of the fact that not everyone has the same level of health and immunity. I agree that most people should remove their masks but since I have no idea if the person in front of me is the exception, and because they have the right to make any mistake they so desire, I would not comment an opinion to them directly. 
That said, it is my belief that the vast majority of people still wearing a mask should protect themselves by removing it. Especially in short duration, very large building environments that many retail stores and other avenues provide. This is because a person needs to expose themselves, not only to covid, but just as importantly, many other viruses and bacteria so as to strengthen their immune systems for the dangerous environments they are surely to encounter. For example, I suspect the flu season this year will be fairly nasty. That is because we are coming off 3 years of preventing viral infections of any kind and then removing our masks. Our immune systems would be at their weakest. Right now, while summer is upon us, and your vitamin D levels and what not are about as high as they probably will ever get, it is the right time microbiologically, to start re-exposing ourselves to the microbes that we are forced to live with on this planet.

The good example of what I am talking about might come from our species BEFORE the invention of fire to cook food. Just like other animals we ate our food, including meat, raw. Try going the next weak and eat all your meat raw and tell me how your week went? Just kidding. Don't do that. My point is that eventually, like our ancestors, our body's immune systems would become stronger and more accustom and fight off the microbes that live in that raw meat and we would start to get less and less sick from it. Today, many street people eat out of garbage dumpsters. Again, if you or I did that we would get very sick. Maybe die, because we have not accustom our immune systems to these microbes. 

If you are healthy and under age 75 you really should be removing your masks when around others for short durations and/or large building environments. Your immune system will thank you for it.


----------



## james4beach

They'll never take away my freedom to wear a mask!! I'll take a convoy all the way to Ottawa and march for my freedom!

By the way, everyone I know in the US is catching COVID. Like on a weekly basis, one spouse catches it from the kid, then the other spouse catches it, etc. Everyone is catching it, over and over again. Their kids are all sick.

Notice that the widespread omicron surge in Jan-Mar did not end COVID. You can obviously catch COVID more than once... and if you're not careful, you will!



OptsyEagle said:


> Your immune system will thank you for it.


I kind of agree, but again, it's so hard to calibrate that. There are tons of people catching COVID more than once so even getting sick from it once doesn't stop a second or third sickness. Perhaps it does help against severe outcomes though, I hope.

My version of what you say is that I've recently downgraded to surgical masks in most settings. This doesn't seal like the CAN95/KN95 so I'm definitely getting some exposure, but it will reduce the level.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Notice that the widespread omicron surge in Jan-Mar did not end COVID. You can obviously catch COVID more than once... and if you're not careful, you will!


This is completely normal and expected for Coronaviruses. This is why you catch the common cold again and again, year after year.

Go look at the posts from 2020, this was my predicted and expected best case.

Ideally the least lethal, most contagious version should become dominant, then we can safely ignore it.


----------



## OptsyEagle

It's because you can and will catch covid multiple times that it is imperative that you do what you can to strengthen your immune system. One of those times is going to be more dangerous then the rest and the only thing that will save you is your immune system. You don't want it to be sleeping.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> It's because you can and will catch covid multiple times that it is imperative that you do what you can to strengthen your immune system. One of those times is going to be more dangerous then the rest and the only thing that will save you is your immune system. You don't want it to be sleeping.


You can and will catch coronaviruses multiple times, and you likely already have. 

We're pretty much getting back to normal.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Ideally the least lethal, most contagious version should become dominant, then we can safely ignore it.


Fingers crossed, but I'm not sure we're there yet.

Those children all around the world are having liver problems, and some needed liver transplants. It appears to be linked to COVID. Why not play it safe a bit longer until we're sure that, you know, we're not destroying kids' organs?

How about we wait until we get a better handle on long COVID on how long that impaired brain function persists? The studies are very new and we don't understand any of this yet. In a few months, or a year, we'll have a better grasp on what's going on with long COVID and how severe the brain / lung / liver problems are.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Fingers crossed, but I'm not sure we're there yet.
> 
> Those children all around the world are having liver problems, and some needed liver transplants. It appears to be linked to COVID. Why not play it safe a bit longer until we're sure that, you know, we're not destroying kids' organs?
> 
> How about we wait until we get a better handle on long COVID on how long that impaired brain function persists? The studies are very new and we don't understand any of this yet. In a few months, or a year, we'll have a better grasp on what's going on with long COVID and how severe the brain / lung / liver problems are.


Again, I'm not sure what actions you are suggesting, I don't think the risk is sufficient for lockdowns. 
I've personally been avoiding hookers and other intimate contact with others long before COVID.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Again, I'm not sure what actions you are suggesting, I don't think the risk is sufficient for lockdowns.
> I've personally been avoiding hookers and other intimate contact with others long before COVID.


Again with the lockdowns. What's with you right wingers always saying "lockdowns" in response to any suggestion of caution about infectious disease?

Masks... limiting gathering sizes... safety protocols in hospitals, schools, public transit. These are not lockdowns.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Again with the lockdowns. What's with you right wingers always saying "lockdowns" in response to any suggestion of caution about infectious disease?
> 
> Masks... limiting gathering sizes... safety protocols in hospitals, schools, public transit. These are not lockdowns.


Those who are concerned can wear masks, those who choose not to participate can limit their gatherings.

You're free to do that if you want, nobody is stopping you.

The thing is, that the risk is low, we're not at system overload/collapse, there is no justification for them going forward.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Those who are concerned can wear masks, those who choose not to participate can limit their gatherings.
> 
> You're free to do that if you want, nobody is stopping you.


Individual approaches like this are not compatible with infectious diseases. It's inherently a public concern by its nature.

That's the whole point of Public Health and why we need government involvement. You can't do this the libertarian way, sorry to say.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> Obviously a person that makes a comment, that someone wearing a mask should not, is ignorant of the fact that not everyone has the same level of health and immunity. I agree that most people should remove their masks but since I have no idea if the person in front of me is the exception, and because they have the right to make any mistake they so desire, I would not comment an opinion to them directly.
> *That said, it is my belief that the vast majority of people still wearing a mask should protect themselves by removing it. Especially in short duration, very large building environments that many retail stores and other avenues provide. T*his is because a person needs to expose themselves, not only to covid, but just as importantly, many other viruses and bacteria so as to strengthen their immune systems for the dangerous environments they are surely to encounter. For example, I suspect the flu season this year will be fairly nasty. That is because we are coming off 3 years of preventing viral infections of any kind and then removing our masks. Our immune systems would be at their weakest. Right now, while summer is upon us, and your vitamin D levels and what not are about as high as they probably will ever get, it is the right time microbiologically, to start re-exposing ourselves to the microbes that we are forced to live with on this planet.
> 
> The good example of what I am talking about might come from our species BEFORE the invention of fire to cook food. Just like other animals we ate our food, including meat, raw. Try going the next weak and eat all your meat raw and tell me how your week went? Just kidding. Don't do that. My point is that eventually, like our ancestors, our body's immune systems would become stronger and more accustom and fight off the microbes that live in that raw meat and we would start to get less and less sick from it. Today, many street people eat out of garbage dumpsters. Again, if you or I did that we would get very sick. Maybe die, because we have not accustom our immune systems to these microbes.
> 
> If you are healthy and under age 75 you really should be removing your masks when around others for short durations and/or large building environments. Your immune system will thank you for it.


 ... why don't you tell the staff over at MCD, THI, Sportcheck, plus all the retailers and the banks to take off their mask. Double, triple, quadruple, etc. DARE you. 

I just came back from these entities (today being June 14, 2022 for the record) and all the staff there wore masks and so did I. Also, 90% of transit (public) riders wore masks.


----------



## sags

In Ontario, the health system is certainly overloaded. There are thousands of patients on wait lists for surgeries and other treatments.

Premier Ford made a lot of pledges but fulfilled none of them. He was re-elected so apparently people don't care until it is them on the wait list.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> In Ontario, the health system is certainly overloaded. There are thousands of patients on wait lists for surgeries and other treatments.


 ... and not one bozo over at Ontario's MOH said anything about the/a plan. Start with the outgoing Idiot and then the bozo CPO, fake CMO.


----------



## Synergy

MrMatt said:


> Again, I'm not sure what actions you are suggesting, I don't think the risk is sufficient for lockdowns.
> I've personally been avoiding hookers and other intimate contact with others long before COVID.


Would Hooters be a safer, family friendly alternative?


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Those who are concerned can wear masks, those who choose not to participate can limit their gatherings.
> 
> You're free to do that if you want, nobody is stopping you.
> 
> The thing is, that the risk is low, we're not at system overload/collapse, there is no justification for them going forward.


Kind of like saying 'if you're worried about inflation, stop buying stuff to cool down the economy'. Some problems require collective action. I'm not saying we're there presently with COVID.


----------



## damian13ster

Like you said yourself, COVID at present doesn't require collective action.
Individual action is still allowed and up to individual's choices.

The problem is that the individual is trying to force his choices upon others, despite no need for it, based on presumption that couple children's liver problems are due to this, rather than other viruses, vaccines, or any other negative reaction of immune system to viruses they lost immunity to due to lockdowns.









Is a Common Virus Suddenly Causing Liver Failure in Kids?


No one knows exactly why hundreds of kids have shown up with hepatitis, but investigators have some ideas.




www.theatlantic.com





The early evidence continues to point to a link with adenovirus—an unexpected correlation that is too strong to dismiss and not strong enough to close the case. Seventy percent of the probable cases globally have tested positive for adenovirus, according to the World Health Organization. But although biopsies have been conducted in a small fraction of those cases, they have failed to find adenovirus in the kids’ livers. At the same time, we definitely know that a different virus infected a massive number of kids recently: SARS-CoV-2, of course. Yet the correlation here is even less clear; only 18 percent of the probable cases tested positive for COVID.


----------



## TomB16

I need to figure out how to contract Omicron 4 or 5 by fall. Any ideas?


----------



## OptsyEagle

TomB16 said:


> I need to figure out how to contract Omicron 4 or 5 by fall. Any ideas?


Avoid space travel.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I need to figure out how to contract Omicron 4 or 5 by fall. Any ideas?


 ... are Omicron 4 or 5 here yet (in Canada) or will be by fall? Can I borrow your crystal ball? All I'm aware is O version 2 with multiple extensions are still here.

Here's an idea: If you're not sick enough with Covid or want to "move on" from Covid, there's monkeypox to play around with.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Individual approaches like this are not compatible with infectious diseases. It's inherently a public concern by its nature.
> 
> That's the whole point of Public Health and why we need government involvement. You can't do this the libertarian way, sorry to say.


I completely agree, if the risk is high that we need government involvement.
But when the risk is small, like it is now, we don't.

Remember Coronavirus has been around for thousands of years, every now and then a more dangerous strain shows up.

The real difference is where we sit on the spectrum of perceived risk, I think you think it is much higher risk than I do.
In turn I think it's a greater risk than the general population.

In either case, I don't think it's a severe enough crisis to force significant measures on the public.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> Here's an idea: If you're not sick enough with Covid or want to "move on" from Covid, there's monkeypox to play around with.


Don't be silly.

I want to contract omicron 4 or 5 because we are going on a three week cruise at the end of the year. People who test positive for COVID are removed from the cruise and locked in a quarantine hotel where they are forced to pay for hotel, meals, testing, while they recover. As I understand it, people who test negative on the fifth day can leave on the sixth. People who test positive on days 5 through 9 can leave on the 10th day, regardless. I don't think they even have to test on day 10.

I'd like to build up some defence. I haven't worn a mask in months, except when visiting the hospital.

So, Beaver, I'm looking to get infected. If you should come down with omicron 4 or 5, I will offer to buy you lunch and happily listen to how bad everything is in the world, how everyone is doing it wrong, and why there is no point in even trying. I will even shake your hand after you cough into it.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Don't be silly.
> 
> I want to contract omicron 4 or 5 because we are going on a three week cruise at the end of the year. People who test positive for COVID are removed from the cruise and locked in a quarantine hotel where they are forced to pay for hotel, meals, testing, while they recover. As I understand it, people who test negative on the fifth day can leave on the sixth. People who test positive on days 5 through 9 can leave on the 10th day, regardless. I don't think they even have to test on day 10.
> 
> I'd like to build up some defence. I haven't worn a mask in months, except when visiting the hospital.


 .. like I said, I'm not aware there's an Omicron 4 or 5 yet. We're still dealing with Omicron version 2.multiple extensions or Omicron 3??? So how can you build up defence now when it's not even here? Maybe you catch it on the boat by then when the virus mutates again.



> So, Beaver, I'm looking to get infected. If you should come down with omicron 4 or 5, I will offer to buy you lunch and happily listen to how bad everything is in the world, how everyone is doing it wrong, and why there is no point in even trying. I will even shake your hand after you cough into it.


 ... see above. Will you buy me lunch if I catch the flu? If so, then I would be more than happy to pass it onto you but you might be waiting for a looooong time for this as I promised myself NEVER AGAIN!!!! am I gonna to catch the flu that willy nilly, let alone Covid. And that includes even you pay me - NO THANKS!!!! YOU KEEP IT!!!!


----------



## sags

I must have missed the news that prior infection provides future immunity.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> I must have missed the news that prior infection provides future immunity.


Fortunately, I did not.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> .. like I said, I'm not aware there's an Omicron 4 or 5 yet.


Perhaps you should have Internet installed in your fall-out shelter.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Perhaps you should have Internet installed in your fall-out shelter.


 ... I think it's already installed there over at them City/MetroHall/Skydome/Rogers Centers.


----------



## TomB16

What sort of lunatic goes on a cruise in the era of COVID?

A year ago, I would have told you I'd never go on a cruise again. I don't even like cruising but I'm married and I like to have marital relations so I am going to walk onto a floating buffet.

I am 55 years old. My family has a good history of mobility and longevity so, let's assume I will be able to travel until I am 70. It is possible I could travel until 75 but the last few years are going to be a different type of travel that will mostly involve a hotel stay in a different part of the world, if they happen at all.

So, 15 years, very best case.

If we skip a year of travel (my wife lives to travel), that is 7% (best case) of our travel life gone. Next year, it will be more. There are not many revolutions around the sun left for us.

This is why I have tried to be as objective as possible about COVID and I have read as much data and opinion as possible. This upgrades our decision success profile to the "semi-educated guess" level. It's the best we can do.

I don't want to die but a small amount of courage enhances my life by a direct and measurable amount.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Then you're no different than those lunatics trying to get out of TO Pearson Airport (worst airport in the world!) these days. LMAO.


----------



## Stan Dirko

A little bit harsh and I wouldn't put him in the level of lunatic


----------



## HappilyRetired

Stan Dirko said:


> A little bit harsh and I wouldn't put him in the level of lunatic


Anyone who disagrees with Beaver is a lunatic or alt-right terrorist.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Anyone who disagrees with Beaver is a lunatic or alt-right terrorist.


 ... the TROLL on the forum who likes to put words in other people's mouths and making blatant accusations, if not outright lies. 

Btw, no one died on Jan6, right? Still stucked with that BS?

Or how about - I'm outta here (quitting this forum)!!!! And yet can't resist returning to lie and troll. Lord, you're pathetic.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... the TROLL on the forum who likes to put words in other people's mouths and making blatant accusations, if not outright lies.
> 
> Btw, no one died on Jan6, right? Still stucked with that BS?


Someone died, Ashli Babbit. That's the only one...an unarmed Trump supporter.

If you know of any others please provide their names.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Someone died, Ashli Babbit. That's the only one...an unarmed Trump supporter.
> 
> If you know of any others please provide their names.


 ... why don't you actually "read" the posts or list that OTHER posters have for you earlier (aside from me from months ago). I ain't your maid.


----------



## TomB16

Stan Dirko said:


> A little bit harsh and I wouldn't put him in the level of lunatic


Thank you, Stan. I appreciate the support but Beaver and I are smooth.

Beaver is just keeping his teeth under control by gnawing on me whenever he can. He gets like this when we forget to throw a piece of wood into his cage.




Beaver101 said:


> ... the TROLL on the forum who likes to put words in other people's mouths and making blatant accusations, if not outright lies.
> 
> Btw, no one died on Jan6, right? Still stucked with that BS?
> 
> Or how about - I'm outta here (quitting this forum)!!!! And yet can't resist returning to lie and troll. Lord, you're pathetic.


As well as the 6 people who lost their lives on January 6, many more are likely to have passed a few weeks later. Did you see the masking protocols? They were terrible. Very unsafe. A shamen mask is not N95 certified.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... why don't you actually "read" the posts or list that OTHER posters have for you earlier (aside from me from months ago). I ain't your maid.


No one has named any other Jan 6 deaths. Just like sags, you are lying.


----------



## bgc_fan

TomB16 said:


> I want to contract omicron 4 or 5 because we are going on a three week cruise at the end of the year. People who test positive for COVID are removed from the cruise and locked in a quarantine hotel where they are forced to pay for hotel, meals, testing, while they recover. As I understand it, people who test negative on the fifth day can leave on the sixth. People who test positive on days 5 through 9 can leave on the 10th day, regardless. I don't think they even have to test on day 10.
> 
> I'd like to build up some defence. I haven't worn a mask in months, except when visiting the hospital.


Semi-serious answer, start hanging around the school yards. You'll pick up all sorts of things from the kids. Slightly more serious and not likely going to get you on a list, you can take the same approach with babysiting your grandkids/nephews/nieces etc. It's all about increasing your points of contact and networking.


----------



## TomB16

bgc_fan said:


> Semi-serious answer, start hanging around the school yards. You'll pick up all sorts of things from the kids. Slightly more serious and not likely going to get you on a list, you can take the same approach with babysiting your grandkids/nephews/nieces etc. It's all about increasing your points of contact and networking.


So, you're saying I have a good chance of picking up omicron 4 or 5 in jail?

Just kidding. Thanks.


----------



## james4beach

Kids are definitely spreading this. One of my friends recently caught it from his kid, and he's struggling to get over it. He's 39 years old and triple vaccinated.

This morning he wrote: "Stupid COVID. It's rough. Do not recommend. Tiredness, coughing, body aches, sinus pressure, tinnitus. I have a lingering sick sort of feeling".

That's 8 days for him so far, still feeling sick.


----------



## TomB16

My wife and I would be happy to babysit for your friend.

BTW, I thought the public was educated on the purpose of vaccination two years ago? It doesn't keep you from getting it, although it lowers the chance of getting it *during the effective period*. Primarily, vaccination reduces the risk of severe disease to extreme low level.

Your friend is going to survive and he will have more, longer term, immunity than vaccination alone. Tell him to put on the Thorin Birds and enjoy some time off work.


----------



## sags

Covid or not....our local hospitals are warning that the ER departments are overflowing.

If people want to test the maximum capacity of the healthcare system they are going about it in the right way.

After years of pandemic and lots of pledges and promises from leaders nothing has improved in our hospitals.

Ontario's Ford has done absolutely nothing but "golly gee folks" talk and he won an easy re-election.....so there you go.


----------



## OneSeat

sags said:


> Covid or not....our local hospitals are warning that the ER departments are overflowing.


Personal experience - I had a routine check-up after a major op 5 years ago - involved some interior examination (transurethral if you want the details) - drove home 100 miles - next day could not pass any pee - help - went to local ER - nurse came to parking lot - sorry this is not important enough - you will have to handle it yourself - - - - - - .or you can come here again tomorrow at 5am but I doubt we will get round to seeing you the same day - ie. 5am to 8pm.

Unless you have the right contacts to short-cut the system we really do not have a worthwhile medical system right now - same as many other places in the world. But we do have the internet so we are better off than our forefathers.


----------



## andrewf

Inability to urinate not important enough? WTF?


----------



## Gator13

OneSeat said:


> Personal experience - I had a routine check-up after a major op 5 years ago - involved some interior examination (transurethral if you want the details) - drove home 100 miles - next day could not pass any pee - help - went to local ER - nurse came to parking lot - sorry this is not important enough - you will have to handle it yourself - - - - - - .or you can come here again tomorrow at 5am but I doubt we will get round to seeing you the same day - ie. 5am to 8pm.
> 
> Unless you have the right contacts to short-cut the system we really do not have a worthwhile medical system right now - same as many other places in the world. But we do have the internet so we are better off than our forefathers.


That is absolutely insane.


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> Inability to urinate not important enough? WTF?


It wouldn't be here.

I am literally at the hospital, right now, with a parent. The ER was built for 36 people. There are currently 74 people in that department. Even ambulances are lined up, waiting to bring people into the er.

My parent was in the hall for three days before being admitted at 2 this morning.

The doctors and nurses are doing an amazing job. While the care is minimal, they are keeping a lot of people alive including someone I care about a great deal and they are doing it under some rough conditions. They are in good spirits, also.

While it could be better, it could be a lot worse.


----------



## andrewf

Inflation is accelerating in both Switzerland and Japan. Good for Japan for finally getting away from persistent deflation.


----------



## OneSeat

TomB16 said:


> The doctors and nurses are doing an amazing job. While the care is minimal, they are keeping a lot of people alive including someone I care about a great deal and they are doing it under some rough conditions. They are in good spirits, also.


I agree with you - I was talking about the "system" not the individuals.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> Inflation is accelerating in both Switzerland and Japan. Good for Japan for finally getting away from persistent deflation.


I am not sure what your thesis is?

That Bank of Canada has no influence on inflation?
Or that BoC actions over last 5 years were not highly inflationary?

Yes, monetary policy is not only factor into inflation.
It is a significant one though and BoC actions are/were accelerating inflation. 
This statement is factually correct


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I've ignored some posters again. They seem to post false, fabricated, or unsupported claims too often for it to be honest mistakes.


 ... I'm sure some of these posters would say "good for you" in doing that (as it changes by the day or hour depending on your mood, memory or the need to spin for the day) so you can continue posting your gospels as the truths.

Reminder: Buyers' beware - especially on a public forum.


----------



## TomB16

Good news! Omicron 4 and 5 are on an up swing! 

The bad news is that delta is making a bit of a comeback.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> The bad news is that delta is making a bit of a comeback.


That could be very serious if true. What is your source for this?

I only found this one article in The Telegraph which mentions a possible return of delta. I can't find any other articles which mention a possible return of delta. It's a bit strange that only one outlet would carry a story mentioning such a serious possibility.

Definitely something we have to keep an eye on.

Unfortunately, Canada has phased out testing of the general population. For example when I use my province's test screening tool, even if I had moderately severe symptoms, they would not test me. This means that if and when a new variant arrives in Canada (perhaps a serious one), we may not notice for a long time. Previously, samples from PCR tests were sent for sequencing tests which could figure out which variant was circulating in society.


----------



## james4beach

Interesting, I took a look at BC data for variants. While omicron is still the dominant strain circulating, in the last 2-3 weeks there has been an increased frequency of some unidentified lineage (variant). The chart shows a growing % of cases are not categorized as one of the top 20 lineages of the virus.

BC's variants reports are here


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> It wouldn't be here.
> 
> I am literally at the hospital, right now, with a parent. The ER was built for 36 people. There are currently 74 people in that department. Even ambulances are lined up, waiting to bring people into the er.
> 
> *My parent was in the hall for three days before being admitted at 2 this morning.*
> 
> The doctors and nurses are doing an amazing job. While the care is minimal, they are keeping a lot of people alive including someone I care about a great deal and they are doing it under some rough conditions. They are in good spirits, also.
> *
> While it could be better, it could be a lot worse.*


 ... I thought things were better (or much better) over there in Vancouver or B.C. ??? Anywhere but in Ontario and I'm not talking about TO Pearson International.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Kids are definitely spreading this. *One of my friends recently caught it from his kid, *and he's struggling to get over it. He's 39 years old and triple vaccinated.
> 
> This morning he wrote: "Stupid COVID. It's rough. Do not recommend. Tiredness, coughing, body aches, sinus pressure, tinnitus. I have a lingering sick sort of feeling".
> 
> That's 8 days for him so far, still feeling sick.


 ... and where is his kid picking it up from? Other kids? At school? At ... ???


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> ... and where is his kid picking it up from? Other kids? At school? At ... ???


 ... the US is opening Covid-vaccination for the kiddies, toddlers (6 months and up): 

US opens COVID vaccine to little kids, shots begin next week


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> That could be very serious if true. What is your source for this?







__





Variants: distribution of cases data, 20 May 2021







www.gov.uk


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... the US is opening Covid-vaccination for the kiddies, toddlers (6 months and up):
> 
> US opens COVID vaccine to little kids, shots begin next week


This seems like a terrible idea to me. This age group is at low risk to the virus and at high risk to the vaccine. Time will tell, I guess.

In my view, the correct approach would be to vaccinate anyone 50+, BMI 30+, or with comorbidity issues.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> This seems like a terrible idea to me. This age group is at low risk to the virus and at high risk to the vaccine. Time will tell, I guess.
> 
> In my view, the correct approach would be to vaccinate anyone 50+, BMI 30+, or with comorbidity issues.


 ... it's a decision that the parents have to make. If you read into the details, the article says,



> ...
> _Roughly 18 million kids will be eligible, but it remains to be seen how many will ultimately get the vaccines. Less than a third of children ages 5 to 11 have done so since vaccination opened up to them last November.
> ...
> Hospitalizations surged during the omicron wave. Since the start of the pandemic, about 480 children under age 5 are counted among the nation's more than 1 million COVID-19 deaths, according to federal data._


Besides, how is the vax different from those for mumps, measles, polio, etc. which are childhood diseases?


----------



## TomB16

Covid vaccine has a unique risk/benefit ratio. Not all vaccines are the same.

Also, the CDC is recommending the vaccine for all children, including those who have had the virus. It is difficult to think of a thought process that leads to this recommendation which is not based on corrupt reasons. Perhaps someone is aware of one? I would appreciate this info.


----------



## Spudd

TomB16 said:


> Covid vaccine has a unique risk/benefit ratio. Not all vaccines are the same.
> 
> Also, the CDC is recommending the vaccine for all children, including those who have had the virus. It is difficult to think of a thought process that leads to this recommendation which is not based on corrupt reasons. Perhaps someone is aware of one? I would appreciate this info.


A simple google search would have answered this for you (I googled "why is covid vaccine recommended for children who had the virus"):





6 Things to Know about COVID-19 Vaccination for Children | CDC


Information for parents and caregivers about COVID-19 vaccination of children ages 5 years and older.




www.cdc.gov




.


----------



## TomB16

Your link is to the recommendation I mentioned. I'm looking for data. You know... Statistics that support the decision.


----------



## Spudd

TomB16 said:


> Your link is to the recommendation I mentioned. I'm looking for data. You know... Statistics that support the decision.


You asked for the thought process. That is listed in the link I provided. They say: Emerging evidence indicates that people can get added protection by getting vaccinated after they have been infected with the virus that causes COVID-19. 

Here is the evidence they linked to:








Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)


CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




www.cdc.gov





The relevant section says this:

More recent observational cohort studies including over 700,000 health system users in Israel and over 11,000 healthcare workers in India reported that history of prior infection provided greater protection from subsequent infection than vaccination alone, but overall risk of infection was lowest among those that were vaccinated following infection during periods of Delta predominance [93, 94]. In the systematic review described above, a pooled analysis across seven studies showed a modest but significant increase in protection from infection when previously infected individuals were vaccinated [79].


----------



## TomB16

I appreciate your response, Spudd.

While there are numbers in your citation, they revolve around a plea for trust and are not results of any sort of study.

The only germane numbers I have seen are a really small group studied by Pfizer. There could be more so citations would be appreciated.

N = 1678 (3 doses, age 0.5 to 5y)

Cases = 3 (with vax), 7 (with placebo)

Notice, this isn't deaths. These are cases.

Cite: Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine Demonstrates Strong Immune Response, High Efficacy and Favorable Safety in Children 6 Months to Under 5 Years of Age Following Third Dose | Pfizer

They seem to be suggesting this proves 80.3% efficacy against all strains but I don't see any evidence of an antibody study to determine how many of them had natural immunity prior to the test. Surely, by now, a whole lot of them will have had COVID exposure.

"This descriptive analysis was based on 10 symptomatic COVID-19 cases identified from seven days after the third dose and accrued as of April 29, 2022. The trial protocol specifies a formal analysis will be performed when at least 21 cases have accrued from seven days after the third dose. Final vaccine efficacy data will be shared once available."

So, the trial is not done, as far as I know.

I have zero interest in pleas to trust the FDA/CDC/Phizer. Zero. They are going to have to be more forthcoming with statistics. If they were more trustworthy, they would spend less energy asking us to trust them and more energy sharing actual data and risk analysis.


----------



## damian13ster

Also, why Delta? They say that even antibodies for original omicron don't work on newer omicron.
So decision to provide vaccines for toddlers is based on whether vaccine designed for alpha works for delta?
Why not check whether vaccine for alpha works for newer omicron in order to make the decision?


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... and where is his kid picking it up from? Other kids? At school? At ... ???


I don't know where the kid caught it. But I'd imagine that many children are asymptomatic so they probably pass it around when at school, or when playing.

Back when public PCR testing existed, the provinces were showing test positivity rates and it was insanely high among school-aged children. Maybe it's because there isn't much vaccination? I really don't know. But kids pass around all bugs easily, think of the regular cold & flu.


----------



## TomB16

Is anyone here old enough to remember the ball pits that McDonalds used to have? Children would climb into a giant box of balls and immediately put the balls into their mouths. Nobody seemed to think anything of it. It was like every child in town sharing a lollipop.

I hate to reveal my level of germophobia but that blew my mind, even back then when the vast majority of people thought viral infections came from catching a chill in a slightly cool breeze. I know people today who still think that.


----------



## sags

Yea......back before humans started performing "gain of function" experiments on deadly viruses.

The most recent investigation by SAGO into the Wuhan lab leak theory revealed nothing but that the Chinese are doing everything possible to hide the facts.

The US government funded these experiments in China and the events at the Winnipeg lab involving Chinese scientists and students were never made public.

Scraps of information have been rooted out by journalists, but there are many unanswered questions, such as why scientists with close ties to the Chinese military were working in the top level lab in Winnipeg, and transporting "samples" of deadly viruses back to a lab in China, controlled by the Chinese military.

All the experts say it is vitally important to discover the origin of the covid virus, how it spread into animals, and then into humans.

What are all these governments afraid of revealing to the public ?


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> Is anyone here old enough to remember the ball pits that McDonalds used to have? Children would climb into a giant box of balls and immediately put the balls into their mouths. Nobody seemed to think anything of it. It was like every child in town sharing a lollipop.


They still exist at other places. Kinda gross, but lots of fun.
Pre-COVID they had the tubular slides, though at the one Local McDonalds they had to shut it down because kids would routinely go down it in overflowing diapers.
Nothing like a feces covered tube slide. The staff weren't able to easily clean it either. We stopped going to that location.



> I hate to reveal my level of germophobia but that blew my mind, even back then when the vast majority of people thought viral infections came from catching a chill in a slightly cool breeze. I know people today who still think that.


People are stupid. I've literally heard discussions with nurses how hand sanitizer cleans better than soap and water (hint, it doesn't)


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Yea......back before humans started performing "gain of function" experiments on deadly viruses.
> 
> The most recent investigation by SAGO into the Wuhan lab leak theory revealed nothing but that the Chinese are doing everything possible to hide the facts.
> 
> The US government funded these experiments in China and the events at the Winnipeg lab involving Chinese scientists and students were never made public.
> 
> Scraps of information have been rooted out by journalists, but there are many unanswered questions, such as why scientists with close ties to the Chinese military were working in the top level lab in Winnipeg, and transporting "samples" of deadly viruses back to a lab in China, controlled by the Chinese military.
> 
> All the experts say it is vitally important to discover the origin of the covid virus, how it spread into animals, and then into humans.
> *
> What are all these governments afraid of revealing to the public* ?


 ... great question!


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> They still exist at other places. Kinda gross, but lots of fun.
> ...


 ... regret reading your posts whilst having breakfast. EEEEEEWWWWWW!!!!!


----------



## TomB16

Spudd said:


> You asked for the thought process. That is listed in the link I provided. They say: Emerging evidence indicates that people can get added protection by getting vaccinated after they have been infected with the virus that causes COVID-19.


This is a good point that I read but didn't respond to, yesterday. I look forward to learning the data behind this new evidence.

Thanks, Spudd.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I need to figure out how to contract Omicron 4 or 5 by fall. Any ideas?


 ... your wish comes true - Omi 4 & 5 are here. 

If you want to contract them asap, fly over to the UK NOW before it hops over to the USA and then to Canada.

This May Be the COVID Variant Scientists Are Dreading
*



This May Be the COVID Variant Scientists Are Dreading

Click to expand...

*


> _David Axe, Mon. June 20, 2022
> 
> COVID-19 cases are increasing again in the United Kingdom, potentially signaling a future surge in infections in the United States and other countries.
> 
> A pair of new subvariants of the dominant Omicron variant—BA.4 and BA.5—appear to be driving the uptick in cases in the U.K. Worryingly, these subvariants seem to partially dodge antibodies from past infection or vaccination, making them more transmissible than other forms of the SARS-CoV-2 virus.
> 
> There are also some suggestions that the new subvariants have evolved to target the lungs—unlike Omicron, which usually resulted in a less dangerous infection of the upper respiratory tract.
> 
> But there’s good news amid the bad. While cases are going up in the U.K., hospitalizations and deaths are increasing more slowly or even declining so far. “This could mean higher transmissible variants, BA.4 or 5, are in play, [and] these variants are much less severe,” Edwin Michael, an epidemiologist at the Center for Global Health Infectious Disease Research at the University of South Florida, told The Daily Beast.
> 
> The trends could change, of course, but the decrease in deaths is an encouraging sign that, 31 months into the pandemic, all that immunity we’ve built up–at the cost of half a billion infections and tens of billions of dollars’ worth of vaccines—is still mostly holding.
> 
> *As far as COVID goes, things were really looking up in the U.K. until recently. COVID cases steadily declined from their recent peak of 89,000 daily new infections in mid-March. Deaths from the March wave peaked a month later at around 330 a day.
> 
> By early June cases and deaths were near their pandemic lows. Then came BA.4 and BA.5. The grandchildren of the basic Omicron variant that first appeared in the fall of 2021, BA.4 and BA.5 both feature a trio of major mutations to their spike protein, the part of the virus that helps it to grab onto and infect our cells.*
> 
> Eric Bortz, a University of Alaska-Anchorage virologist and public-health expert, described BA.4 and BA.5 as “immunologically distinct sublineages.” In other words, they interact with our antibodies in surprising new ways.
> The European Center for Disease Prevention and Control—the European Union’s answer to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention—labeled BA.4 and BA.5 “variants of concerns” back in mid-May. Two weeks later the two new subvariants began the gradual process of overtaking older forms of Omicron in the U.K. That’s when cases began increasing again.
> 
> It doesn’t help that the U.K. like most countries—China is a big exception—has lifted almost all restrictions on schools, businesses, crowds and travel. Those restrictions helped to keep down cases, but were broadly unpopular and came at a high economic cost.
> 
> “There’s a disconnect between the actuality of how infections are happening… and how people are deciding not to take very many precautions,” John Swartzberg, a professor emeritus of infectious diseases and vaccinology at the University of California-Berkeley's School of Public Health, told The Daily Beast. He described it as “COVID fatigue… 100 percent of the world’s population must have it by now.”
> 
> The combination of a fully reopened economy and new COVID subvariants had an immediate effect. The U.K. Health Security Agency registered 62,228 new infections in the week ending June 10, a 70 percent uptick over the previous week. COVID hospitalizations grew more slowly over the same period, spiking 30 percent to 4,421.
> 
> COVID fatalities actually dropped, however—sliding 10 percent to 283. Deaths tend to lag infections by several weeks, of course, so it should come as no surprise if the death rate flattens or bumps up later this month or early next month.
> But it’s possible it won’t. Yes, BA.4 and BA.5 are more transmissible, owing to that mutated spike protein. But that doesn’t mean they’re going to kill a lot of people. Despite their unusual qualities, it could be that BA.4 and BA.5 aren’t actually more dangerous than previous subvariants.
> 
> Bortz sketched out one possibility, that BA.4 and BA.5 are “immune-evasive enough to infect, but generally not evasive enough to counteract acquired immunity from vaccines and/or prior infection.”
> 
> Of course, immunity varies from community to community, country to country. The U.K.’s 67 million people have, for their part, built up pretty serious immunity over the past two-and-a-half years.
> 
> Tens of millions of U.K. residents have natural antibodies from past infection. 87 percent of the population is fully vaccinated. 68 percent is boosted. All those antibodies might not prevent breakthrough infections, but they do tend to prevent serious breakthrough infections.
> 
> How bad the current surge in cases gets depends to a great extent on the durability of those antibodies. Immunity, whether from past infection or vaccines, tends to wane over time. But how fast it wanes, and to what effect, is unpredictable.
> 
> It’s possible widespread immunity holds and the swelling BA.4 and BA.5 wave in the U.K. crests in a few weeks without making a whole lot more people sick—or killing them. That’s the best-case scenario given the lack of political will, and public support, for a new round of restrictions. “If higher cases would not lead to significant disease or deaths, then we may be able to live with this virus,” Michael said.
> 
> The worst-case scenario is that BA.4 and BA.5 prove more capable of evading our antibodies than experts currently anticipate. Keep an eye on the hospitalization stats. If COVID hospitalizations start increasing in proportion to the growth in cases, it’s a sign the new sublineages are dodging our hard-won immunity.
> In that case, a big spike in deaths is sure to follow.
> 
> That could be a big red flag for the Americas. COVID variants tend to travel from east to west, globally. New variants and subvariants tend to appear in the United States a few weeks after becoming dominant in the U.K. At present, BA.4 and BA.5 account for just a fifth of new cases in the U.S. Expect that proportion to increase.
> 
> The problem for Americans is that they’re much less protected than Britons. Yes, Americans have a lot of antibodies from past infection, but they’re also a lot less likely to be vaccinated—and even less likely to be boosted. Just 67 percent of Americans are fully vaxxed. A little over a third of the U.S. population has gotten a booster.
> 
> So if BA.4 and BA.5 end up causing a surge in deaths in the U.K., they’re likely to inflict an even greater death toll on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. “We’re sort of in this zone now, betwixt and between,” Swartzberg said. “It’s unclear which way things are going to go.”_


----------



## sags

Cripes I hope not.

But UK has been a very reliable source for information on what is coming for us.

It sounds like it is more transmissible, evades immunity, targets the lungs, and they "hope" it doesn't cause a higher death rate......but it might.


----------



## james4beach

I think we're experiencing some education and progress in public understanding of infectious disease spread. There are now more people thinking about details that we never thought of before.

Masks for air travel is a good example. Whether they are mandatory or not, I will be wearing a mask in planes & airports for the rest of my life. It's just common sense. Many Asian travellers figured this out long ago, but I didn't understand until the pandemic.

But there are other areas where our society is still being incredibly stupid. For example, going to work if one is sick and has symptoms (runny nose, sore throat, cough, etc). People STILL go to work when sick. Unfortunately our society sends the wrong message here. Even hospital workers are encouraged -- by government! -- to come into work even when symptomatic. And people socialize when symptomatic as well.

Those are some very bad habits that we haven't yet eradicated from our society.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I don't think these very bad habits will ever be eradicated from our society ... just look at simple hand-washings. I wouldn't be surprised people still don't wash their hands after using the toilet. That's why they're called "habits" ... part of their DNA.


----------



## Spudd

james4beach said:


> I think we're experiencing some education and progress in public understanding of infectious disease spread. There are now more people thinking about details that we never thought of before.
> 
> Masks for air travel is a good example. Whether they are mandatory or not, I will be wearing a mask in planes & airports for the rest of my life. It's just common sense. Many Asian travellers figured this out long ago, but I didn't understand until the pandemic.
> 
> But there are other areas where our society is still being incredibly stupid. For example, going to work if one is sick and has symptoms (runny nose, sore throat, cough, etc). People STILL go to work when sick. Unfortunately our society sends the wrong message here. Even hospital workers are encouraged -- by government! -- to come into work even when symptomatic. And people socialize when symptomatic as well.
> 
> Those are some very bad habits that we haven't yet eradicated from our society.


100%. I've gotten sick on planes numerous times, it just makes sense to mask up. But before this, I never considered it as an option. 

I had a part-time job doing tax prep this spring. My co-worker I shared an office with came to work one day feeling under the weather but not overly sick. She wore her N95 mask all day, so I was OK with it. That was a Wednesday. On Thursdays I didn't work. I got to work on Friday and learned she had called in sick on Thursday. Then she showed up sounding like death warmed over and not wearing a mask. I asked my boss if I could leave because I wasn't comfortable with the situation, and he moved me to an office far away from her, which I was fine with. The following week, my other co-worker who also shared an office with the sick one came down with covid. I feel 99% sure the sick co-worker had covid but showed up to the office anyway. Was very glad I had spoken up and asked to move. 

Trouble is with hourly paid work, if you don't go to work, you don't get paid. I'm sure that's why she came even though she felt terrible.


----------



## Beaver101

Spudd said:


> 100%. I've gotten sick on planes numerous times, it just makes sense to mask up. But before this, I never considered it as an option.
> 
> I had a part-time job doing tax prep this spring. My co-worker I shared an office with came to work one day feeling under the weather but not overly sick. She wore her N95 mask all day, so I was OK with it. That was a Wednesday. On Thursdays I didn't work. I got to work on Friday and learned she had called in sick on Thursday.* Then she showed up sounding like death warmed over and not wearing a mask. *I asked my boss if I could leave because I wasn't comfortable with the situation, and he moved me to an office far away from her, which I was fine with. The following week, my other co-worker who also shared an office with the sick one came down with covid. I feel 99% sure the sick co-worker had covid but showed up to the office anyway. Was very glad I had spoken up and asked to move.


 ... excuse my interrupting here.

Re bolded part above - let's face it some people just don't give a sh1t about others regardless. Particularly those with MY-rights, MY-this-and-that ... the ME, MYSELF, and I ONLY as I OWN THE WORLD. I get it, selfishness is ingrained in the DNA. But the worst ones are those who downplay (and continue to do so) as Covid as "it's just a flu" or the mentality of "what pandemic?" One can't help but wonder what's their actual "intent" here? Don't think it's a good one for sure.



> Trouble is with hourly paid work, if you don't go to work, you don't get paid. I'm sure that's why she came even though she felt terrible.


 . .. no excuse. First, where's her mask if she's ALREADY sick. Plus can't she WAH (aka work from home SICK)? Or is she concerned that her employer don't trust her with logging in the "hours" SICK at home so she has to show to prove to her employer she's SICK as a dog and yet working ... spreading the germs to others.


----------



## james4beach

Spudd said:


> Trouble is with hourly paid work, if you don't go to work, you don't get paid. I'm sure that's why she came even though she felt terrible.


Sounds like you dodged a bullet there. Yeah definitely, people come to the office when sick.

If they really have to come in when sick, I'd hope they at least wear a mask as it would go a long way to protect others.

I walked into a bank in Toronto a few months ago, during one of their COVID surges. One employee (in his office, with the door open) was coughing and sounded just awful. I couldn't believe this guy would come into work like this and expose everyone else! Not a single mask on any of the employees.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Sounds like you dodged a bullet there. Yeah definitely, people come to the office when sick.
> 
> If they really have to come in when sick, I'd hope they at least wear a mask as it would go a long way to protect others.
> 
> I walked into a bank in Toronto a few months ago, during one of their COVID surges. One employee (in his office, with the door open) was coughing and sounded just awful. I couldn't believe this guy would come into work like this and expose everyone else! Not a single mask on any of the employees.


 ... as a paying client (not customer), I would be speaking up with the manager if not the VP re that "coughing" employee. I don't care if the bank itself doesn't care about its employees being sick working but don't get the client sick.

Imagine - being a client walking into that employee's (which is usually reserved for the personal (sales) rep. aka also the personal banking "manager") and catching Covid. You pay to catch Covid. WTF.

I think part (and ALOT of that part) of the problem is the employer is 1. allowing sick employees working, and 2. not putting money where its mouth belong by NOT enforcing its own rules, and 3. really care about its employees NOT. Nothing changes - except for the worst. No wonder there's a labour shortage.


----------



## TomB16

Spudd said:


> Trouble is with hourly paid work, if you don't go to work, you don't get paid. I'm sure that's why she came even though she felt terrible.


At my old shop, two people I know well (both excellent people) came to work in October 2021 sick as a dog. Both were having coughing fits, among other symptoms. Someone I know who works on that floor told me that by 9am, those two people were the only ones on the floor; everyone else went home. When someone asked one of them why they would come in so sick the reply was, "It's just a cold."


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... excuse my interrupting here.
> 
> Re bolded part above - let's face it some people just don't give a sh1t about others regardless. Particularly those with MY-rights, MY-this-and-that ... the ME, MYSELF, and I ONLY as I OWN THE WORLD. I get it, selfishness is ingrained in the DNA. But the worst ones are those who downplay (and continue to do so) as Covid as "it's just a flu" or the mentality of "what pandemic?" One can't help but wonder what's their actual "intent" here? Don't think it's a good one for sure.
> 
> . .. no excuse. First, where's her mask if she's ALREADY sick. Plus can't she WAH (aka work from home SICK)? Or is she concerned that her employer don't trust her with logging in the "hours" SICK at home so she has to show to prove to her employer she's SICK as a dog and yet working ... spreading the germs to others.


Spoken just like someone who has never run a business and never will.

People like you only complain. None of you will open a business and pay people to stay home every time they get a sniffle. None of you will give a dime to a struggling parent trying to make ends meet.

Wear an N95 mask if you're still scared. Or open a business and pay your employees to stay home.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Spoken just like someone who has never run a business and never will.
> 
> People like you only complain. None of you will open a business and pay people to stay home every time they get a sniffle. None of you will give a dime to a struggling parent trying to make ends meet.
> 
> Wear an N95 mask if you're still scared. Or open a business and pay your employees to stay home.


 ... boo hoo, cry me a river as you ever owned a business.

Of course, you ran a business - on other people's dime and smooch smooch smooch whoever's axx pays you. And never have to complain even when a truck runs you over. 

Not surprised at all considering how you "worship" your highest Messiah down south. Just like one of my former boss (btw, the axx-kissing corporate type) says, turn over, you turn over. Sit you sit. Like a nice little doggy. And never say "no" when he 'the fake boss" tells you to go jump in a lake. You just do as told, go jump into a lake. SAP.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... boo hoo, cry me a river as you ever owned a business.
> 
> Of course, you ran a business - on other people's dime and smooch smooch smooch whoever's axx pays you. And never have to complain even when a truck runs you over.
> 
> Not surprised at all considering how you "worship" your highest Messiah down south. Just like one of my former boss (btw, the axx-kissing corporate type) says, turn over, you turn over. Sit you sit. Like a nice little doggy. And never say "no" when he 'the fake boss" tells you to go jump in a lake. You just do as told, go jump into a lake. SAP.


It's interesting how anyone who disagrees with you is automatically called a Trump lover instead of what they really are...just another person who finds your comments to be either false or childish slander. Other than sags, no one thinks that you have any credibility.

You can get rid of me in 30 seconds....I'm still waiting for that list of names, but it won't happen. I guess that was just another one of your lies.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> It's interesting how anyone who disagrees with you is automatically called a Trump lover instead of what they really are...just another person who finds your comments to be either false or childish slander. Other than sags, no one thinks that you have any credibility.


 ... because THAT'S THE TRUTH. All your posts are pro-Dump and as mentioned before it wouldn't surprise me you're a dual citizen. And now you're embarassed being a Dump-lover... with such mighty high credibility.

You were the one who started and continuously calling anyone who didn't agree with you a liar when you're the actual one. You even go to the extent of putting them on Ignore but miraculously I never re-made it on your Ignore list. Why? 'Cause you're ALSO THE BIGGEST TROLLER HERE. I can't help it if someone thinks so highly of himself that he won't admit it. I can't twist your head.



> You can get rid of me in 30 seconds..


.. why would I want to do that when it was yourself as in YOU, who said you were leaving this forum with the "I'm outta here!", only to re-appear again. Why? Did someone else bite your tongue ? Additionally, you SAID you might leave Canada all together given the stupid gun laws, no first amendment laws, etc. etc. etc. (rant rant rant). And so?



> I'm still waiting for that list of names, but it won't happen.


 ... you can wait until the end of time and I'm not digging out that post previously where I gave a list of names. Repeat, I ain't your maid, servant or slave. You can try that with your SO.



> I guess that was just another one of your lies.


 ... only you say so. Why don't you go and make the claim on this forum that you tell "nothing but the truth and only the truth." And see who believes your BS (aka BULLSH1T).


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... as a paying client (not customer), I would be speaking up with the manager if not the VP re that "coughing" employee. I don't care if the bank itself doesn't care about its employees being sick working but don't get the client sick.


I considered complaining, and in hindsight I should have phoned and followed up with the boss -- it was completely unacceptable.

But at the time, I didn't want to get anywhere near their filthy, diseased bodies. So I just tried to get the hell out of their ASAP.

A situation like that (no masks, and a sick employee) showed that they had a cultural problem in that workplace.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I considered complaining, and in hindsight I should have phoned and followed up with the boss -- it was completely unacceptable.
> 
> But at the time, I didn't want to get anywhere near their filthy, diseased bodies. So I just tried to get the hell out of their ASAP.


 ... I would agree in trying to get out asap or make it quick. Definitely no way h/josé would I be meeting up with that coughing manager.



> A situation like that (no masks, and a sick employee) showed that they had a cultural problem in that workplace.


 ... a "cultural problem in the workplace" is not the customer/client's problem. I feel for the employees working there and then when the problem manifests, it becomes the employees' self-doing for missing the "opportunity" to speak up. Oh well. As said, nothing changes ... except for the worst.


----------



## sags

Our grandson has his Grade 8 graduation tomorrow.

They are holding it indoors and "capped" it at 250 people. I would prefer not to go, but we feel obligated to do so.

So after being as cautious as possible, we are now going to be sitting with 250 people in a closed room, with no mask restrictions or health checks.

I have to wonder.......why didn't they have it outside ? I think there is a general consensus that covid is over......and they are wrong.

Great eh ?.......no wonder covid is spreading in our city.

The local hospital has another outbreak and the ER docs are saying they have never seen it so busy and overcrowded there.

Anyone going to the ER now should plan ahead and take a couple days of food supplies with them.

Our neighbor had a major surgery for a double hernia, that involved repairing a lot of internal damage in his abdomen.

He didn't even get to stay overnight in the hospital. They turfed him out with a few pain pills and a sheet of information.

His wife says he is in extreme pain 24 hours a day and has run out of pain pills. They won't prescribe anymore and tell him to "tough it" out.

WTF........they are booting people out a few hours after major surgery to make room for more patients.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> A situation like that (no masks, and a sick employee) showed that they had a cultural problem in that workplace.


Sick people at the office was dumb before COVID.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> So after being as cautious as possible, we are now going to be sitting with 250 people in a closed room, with no mask restrictions or health checks.


Goes without saying but just to state the obvious: make sure you are wearing your best mask. Absolutely must be a KN95 / CAN95 style, or 99 level.

Try to get a good "fit" on it. As you breathe in & out you should see the fabric puff and contract a bit. If the fit seems a bit loose, one way to easily tighten it is to add one twist to each ear-loop. So take the circular ear loop and instead of putting it directly over your ear, add one twist to it, which shortens the elastic length a bit.

I would also try to minimize your talking with others. I do exactly the same things for air travel. I try to keep to myself and say, and interact, as little as possible.

Additionally, for what little good it can do, I would make sure I take vitamin C & D on that day. When you get home, I'd suggest taking a nap to try and keep the immune system as strong as possible. Basically other than your obligation to socialize, take it as easy as possible for the rest of the day. Don't get roped into additional things, tell them you're tired.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Sick people at the office was dumb before COVID.


 ... and now it's not just dumber but assinined. Have employers not learned anything yet? Has the provincial's Health and Occupational Safety laws not been updated? Or are those just being taken as blind-eyed?


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Our grandson has his Grade 8 graduation tomorrow.
> 
> They are holding it indoors and "capped" it at 250 people. I would prefer not to go, but we feel obligated to do so.
> 
> So after being as cautious as possible, we are now going to be sitting with 250 people in a closed room, with no mask restrictions or health checks.
> 
> I have to wonder.......why didn't they have it outside ? I think there is a general consensus that covid is over......and they are wrong.
> 
> Great eh ?.......no wonder covid is spreading in our city.
> 
> The local hospital has another outbreak and the ER docs are saying they have never seen it so busy and overcrowded there.
> 
> Anyone going to the ER now should plan ahead and take a couple days of food supplies with them.
> 
> Our neighbor had a major surgery for a double hernia, that involved repairing a lot of internal damage in his abdomen.
> 
> He didn't even get to stay overnight in the hospital. They turfed him out with a few pain pills and a sheet of information.
> 
> His wife says he is in extreme pain 24 hours a day and has run out of pain pills. They won't prescribe anymore and tell him to "tough it" out.
> 
> WTF........they are booting people out a few hours after major surgery to make room for more patients.


 ... that's REALLY BAD ... it just isn't the pain he's gonna have to tough out as 'bad'. If that surgical area breaks or get infected, ER he goes again.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Goes without saying but just to state the obvious: make sure you are wearing your best mask. *Absolutely must be a KN95 / CAN95 style, or 99 level.*
> 
> Try to get a good "fit" on it. As you breathe in & out you should see the fabric puff and contract a bit. If the fit seems a bit loose, one way to easily tighten it is to add one twist to each ear-loop. So take the circular ear loop and instead of putting it directly over your ear, add one twist to it, which shortens the elastic length a bit.
> 
> I would also try to minimize your talking with others. I do exactly the same things for air travel. I try to keep to myself and say, and interact, as little as possible.
> 
> Additionally, for what little good it can do, I would make sure I take vitamin C & D on that day. When you get home, I'd suggest taking a nap to try and keep the immune system as strong as possible. Basically other than your obligation to socialize, take it as easy as possible for the rest of the day. Don't get roped into additional things, *tell them you're tired.*


 ... mask and the last sentence are the tools. Make it quick. But I suspect it'll be difficult to not socialize if there's gonna to be food or drinks around, let alone being kept masked.


----------



## zinfit

I just came back from a US trip. I had a booster shot in December and all my shots to that point was Moderna. I was in Costco and they were giving booster shots. I took another booster. I told the Pharmacist I would like a Pfizer shot. He said it was a good idea to mix the vaccines and I got a Pfizer booster.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> He said it was a good idea to mix the vaccines and I got a Pfizer booster.


I agree. I'm planning to get my next booster in Aug-Sep and will be hunting around for a Pfizer, to mix with my previous Moderna shots.

Though, I think it's also healthy to space out shots in time (leave months between them) as there seems to be some belief among experts that excessively frequent vaccination does not help the immune system


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I agree. I'm planning to get my next booster in Aug-Sep and will be hunting around for a Pfizer, to mix with my previous Moderna shots.
> 
> Though, I think it's also healthy to space out shots in time (leave months between them) as there seems to be some belief among experts that excessively frequent vaccination does not help the immune system


I'm not planning to get a booster, because I haven't seen the data that they offer a positive risk/benefit ratio.

Some data suggests overvaccination HURTS the immune system response to the target virus.


----------



## Beaver101

National incident declared after UK health officials detect polio virus in London sewage samples

Hopefully this is just contained in the UK, London specifically.


----------



## TomB16

Omicron BA.5 (and, to a lesser extent, BA.4) is going to sweep the global population in the next few weeks in another wave. I suspect it will look like a small wave primarily because of reduced testing protocols.

Now that nearly everyone have been exposed to COVID-19, the risks will be dramatically lower than previous strains but I'm sure many folks will seize the opportunity to panic.


----------



## Beaver101

^ At this point, I would be more concerned with the (re)-emerging polio virus. And yes, I'll continue to wear my mask and stay away from people who don't care to wash their hands.


----------



## TomB16

When polio spreads through the US, it is going to add additional consequence to the anti-vax movement. That ought to be interesting.

In the mean time, I need to find someone with BA.5 who is willing to cough on me.


----------



## londoncalling

I attended an event at my kid's school yesterday. The auditorium was not as full as similar events prepandemic where everyone was shoulder to shoulder but definitely full. Mask use was almost non existent. I would estimate at 3% (primarily grandparents and a few others). One teacher was masked who is immunocompromised. I don't believe I saw a student masked but this makes sense as the event would not allow for masking and they have been a large cohort throughout the pandemic. At this point they have shared and reshared all sorts of bugs with each other. I did overhear a parent and a teacher talking about attendance. The teacher reported that absenteeism has been at an all time high and there have only been a handful of days with full class attendance this entire school year. I really don't have an opinion on any of what I provided but wanted to report the observation. This event also would have given @TomB16 an opportunity to expose himself to a variety germs in preparation for his adventure at sea.


----------



## sags

Covid 5 and 6, monkey pox, and now polio ? Is there any connection to climate change, ocean tides, phases of the moon, or something ?


----------



## Beaver101

londoncalling said:


> I attended an event at my kid's school yesterday. The auditorium was not as full as similar events prepandemic where everyone was shoulder to shoulder but definitely full. Mask use was almost non existent. I would estimate at 3% (primarily grandparents and a few others). One teacher was masked who is immunocompromised. I don't believe I saw a student masked but this makes sense as the event would not allow for masking and they have been a large cohort throughout the pandemic. At this point they have shared and reshared all sorts of bugs with each other. I did overhear a parent and a teacher talking about attendance. The teacher reported that absenteeism has been at an all time high and there have only been a handful of days with full class attendance this entire school year. I really don't have an opinion on any of what I provided but wanted to report the observation. * This event also would have given @TomB16 an opportunity to expose himself to a variety germs in preparation for his adventure at sea.*


 ... you have to tell TomB16 in advance in addition of an invite to this "opportunity". I think there's still another chance ... how about kissing someone who traveled to the UK recently? Suggestions: A neighbour, friend of neighbour, friend of friends, kids of friends, etc.. 

Ah, putting on my thinking cap, I know where's the best place to catch it - the Covid ward of your local hospital, "guaranteed" you'll get one version. Though no guarantee it'll be 4 or 5 as it is reported spreading in the UK at the moment.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Covid 5 and 6, monkey pox, and now polio ? Is there any connection to climate change, ocean tides, phases of the moon, or something ?


 ... not so fast sags. We're only at Covid 5 - not 6 yet. 

But don't knock it, the pandemic could be related to climate change. it has been reported that scientists know or have a good estimate that there're some 15,000 (yes, 15 thousands) kind of viruses lurking beneath the Arctic ice. So once global ice start melting (because of cc), some of those bugs are gonna to be released ... which might then be connected with ocean tides as how else will those germs travel here and there? And then it might be related to the moon phases as ocean tides are generated by earth's gravitational pulls ... with the moon too. Whoa!

Watch, we're gonna to be labelled as conspiracy theorists here next ...


----------



## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> I attended an event at my kid's school yesterday. The auditorium was not as full as similar events prepandemic where everyone was shoulder to shoulder but definitely full. Mask use was almost non existent. . . . At this point they have shared and reshared all sorts of bugs with each other. I did overhear a parent and a teacher talking about attendance. The teacher reported that absenteeism has been at an all time high and there have only been a handful of days with full class attendance this entire school year.


The rates of COVID infection among kids has been extreme. Anecdotally (through my friends) it sounds like *all kids* have caught COVID. And they also spread it to the rest of society. The kids have been circulating this all year, to everyone.

If we were a smarter society we would have put up defenses to prevent this kind of uncontrolled disease spread. What we went through is not good and in some ways I feel like we're a third-rate country, that we can't / won't use modern technology to protect children and protect all of society.

It's not healthy to let an infectious disease blast through society like this. First of all, it causes severe health problems in some % of people. It also prevents people from going to their jobs.

Constantly circulating sickness does not help anyone. People can get reinfected and become sick again in 2-4 months. And there's still long COVID out there. All we're doing by aggressively circulating COVID is making more people sick, when fewer could have been sick.

We're a stupider country than I had hoped, and our Public Health officials dropped the ball. The speed of disease transmission should have been reduced instead of just ignoring all the infections. What kind of approach is that, to just ignore the infections?

Is that going to be the plan in winter too? Just ignore it and let the hospitals fill up, because the kids are spreading COVID again like wildfire?

We're going to have more deaths from COVID in winter. People's bodies and immune systems are weaker, they are less resilient in general.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> The rates of COVID infection among kids has been extreme. Anecdotally (through my friends) it sounds like *all kids* have caught COVID. And they also spread it to the rest of society. The kids have been circulating this all year, to everyone.
> 
> If we were a smarter society we would have put up defenses to prevent this kind of uncontrolled disease spread. What we went through is not good and in some ways I feel like we're a third-rate country, that we can't / won't use modern technology to protect children and protect all of society.
> 
> It's not healthy to let an infectious disease blast through society like this. First of all, it causes severe health problems in some % of people. It also prevents people from going to their jobs.
> 
> Constantly circulating sickness does not help anyone. People can get reinfected and become sick again in 2-4 months. And there's still long COVID out there. All we're doing by aggressively circulating COVID is making more people sick, when fewer could have been sick.
> 
> We're a stupider country than I had hoped, and our Public Health officials dropped the ball. The speed of disease transmission should have been reduced instead of just ignoring all the infections. What kind of approach is that, to just ignore the infections?
> 
> *Is that going to be the plan in winter too? Just ignore it and let the hospitals fill up, because the kids are spreading COVID again like wildfire?*
> 
> We're going to have more deaths from COVID in winter. People's bodies and immune systems are weaker, they are less resilient in general.


 ... that IS the plan! Nothing to see, nothing to do given 1. everybody must have gotten Covid aka "immuned" by now (but not sure where the "herd immunity" ???? status is at though), and 2. Covid is now the "flu" "mentality". Plus "you're on your own".

I can't wait to see the resurgence of polio spreading as THAT IS a known "childhood" disease.. Add this with the flus (Covid and/or not). Ho-hum.

I'm glad at least TO hospitals at least have their masks mandate in place as if the place is not germy enough to begin with.

Almost forget to mention this. From the Ontario's MOH announcement, under the direction of its CPO (aka fake CMO), the (or more like 'his) "plan" is for Ontarians to get their "2nd" booster shot in the fall of 2022 ... I'm ROFeffFLMAO ... those/them Delta vaccines must be expiring soon so better make use of our tax-dollars before them public health experts get booted out of a job.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> The rates of COVID infection among kids has been extreme. Anecdotally (through my friends) it sounds like *all kids* have caught COVID. And they also spread it to the rest of society. The kids have been circulating this all year, to everyone.
> 
> If we were a smarter society we would have put up defenses to prevent this kind of uncontrolled disease spread. What we went through is not good and in some ways I feel like we're a third-rate country, that we can't / won't use modern technology to protect children and protect all of society.
> 
> It's not healthy to let an infectious disease blast through society like this. First of all, it causes severe health problems in some % of people. It also prevents people from going to their jobs.
> 
> Constantly circulating sickness does not help anyone. People can get reinfected and become sick again in 2-4 months. And there's still long COVID out there. All we're doing by aggressively circulating COVID is making more people sick, when fewer could have been sick.
> 
> We're a stupider country than I had hoped, and our Public Health officials dropped the ball. The speed of disease transmission should have been reduced instead of just ignoring all the infections. What kind of approach is that, to just ignore the infections?
> 
> Is that going to be the plan in winter too? Just ignore it and let the hospitals fill up, because the kids are spreading COVID again like wildfire?
> 
> We're going to have more deaths from COVID in winter. People's bodies and immune systems are weaker, they are less resilient in general.


Hospitalization and ICU are flat/falling, while wastewater is starting to increase.
Clearly the current situation isn't as dire as in early 2020. We have vaccines and treatments, and the trend for lethality of this virus is dropping.
We are approaching the end of the pandemic.


"What kind of approach is that, to just ignore the infections?"
The completely normal approach.
Honestly, until 2020 we didn't trackd Coronavirus infections, we only tracked variants that were extremely dangerous.

Given that the current coronavirus strains aren't that bad, we're not dedicating as much resources to it.


You keep saying everyone dropped the ball, what exactly are you proposing?
Time to get back to normalish.

FYI, schools still have some COVID restrictions


----------



## sags

There were no restrictions in the public school graduation ceremonies yesterday for our grandson.

Almost 300 people packed into the high school auditorium, nobody wearing a mask, everyone yelling and shouting out cheering the students as they accepted their diplomas. The irony is the teachers and principal spent a lot of time talking about how well the school and students managed through the covid pandemic.

Then they decide to abandon all precautions the last time the students will gather together. You just gotta wonder..........

If anyone in the audience has covid..........many of us are going to get covid.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> There were no restrictions in the public school graduation ceremonies yesterday for our grandson.
> 
> Almost 300 people packed into the high school auditorium, nobody wearing a mask, everyone yelling and shouting out cheering the students as they accepted their diplomas. The irony is the teachers and principal spent a lot of time talking about how well the school and students managed through the covid pandemic.
> 
> Then they decide to abandon all precautions the last time the students will gather together. You just gotta wonder..........
> 
> If anyone in the audience has covid..........many of us are going to get covid.


That's interesting, because the public school assemblies in London (TVSB & LDCSB) have been outdoors due to COVID restrictions.

This was recommended by Doug Ford.








Principals, school boards question Ontario’s plan to host outdoor graduations | Globalnews.ca


Ontario educators are raising questions about the feasibility of Premier Doug Ford's plan to have schools host outdoor graduation ceremonies for all students in a matter of weeks.




globalnews.ca





There was nothing preventing the Principal from holding graduation outdoors, I'm just shocked that the school boards apparently didn't ban indoor graduations for HS students.


----------



## Money172375

sags said:


> There were no restrictions in the public school graduation ceremonies yesterday for our grandson.
> 
> Almost 300 people packed into the high school auditorium, nobody wearing a mask, everyone yelling and shouting out cheering the students as they accepted their diplomas. The irony is the teachers and principal spent a lot of time talking about how well the school and students managed through the covid pandemic.
> 
> Then they decide to abandon all precautions the last time the students will gather together. You just gotta wonder..........
> 
> If anyone in the audience has covid..........many of us are going to get covid.


300?! You do realize tens of thousand have been attending concerts and live sports for months.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> 300?! You do realize tens of thousand have been attending concerts and live sports for months.


Taxpayer funded events should be held to a higher standard.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Taxpayer funded events should be held to a higher standard.


 ... even I'm surprised that I'm 110% in agreement with this. What happened to the so-called "leadership"?


----------



## TomB16

Money172375 said:


> 300?! You do realize tens of thousand have been attending concerts and live sports for months.


For sure. 

I haven't been this free of impactful virus for a long time. The second last "cold" I had was in January 2020 with the Wuhan variant of COVID. That was a rough ride. The last "cold" I had was early this year when I had a slight dry cough. I'm 90% sure it was omicron. If the symptoms had been any less, I would not have noticed. I would cough perhaps once every 45 minutes. It wasn't enough to make my throat raw from coughing, and the coughs were a hack or two to clear my throat, but it felt a bit unusual. It felt like a dry throat but it didn't go away with drinking water. It lasted a few days.

This, and we have been travelling and going out (with masking and hand washing until April 2022). We spent the winter in Mexico.

I don't know how much of it comes from being retired and not sharing a germ pool with hundreds of people or how much of it is herd immunity now that nearly everyone has had COVID exposure. I'm sure both play a factor. Still, I am enjoying feeling great all the time.

I plan to continue washing my hands frequently and I will still wear a mask in a few places like aircraft but COVID is mostly over for me. I believe most of the people still living in fear are doing so irrationally. Society has learned to live with it. Death rates are way down from their peak.

Viva post covid life!


----------



## Money172375

sags said:


> There were no restrictions in the public school graduation ceremonies yesterday for our grandson.
> 
> Almost 300 people packed into the high school auditorium, nobody wearing a mask, everyone yelling and shouting out cheering the students as they accepted their diplomas. The irony is the teachers and principal spent a lot of time talking about how well the school and students managed through the covid pandemic.
> 
> Then they decide to abandon all precautions the last time the students will gather together. You just gotta wonder..........
> 
> If anyone in the audience has covid..........many of us are going to get covid.


I think the precautions were abandoned a few months ago in schools.


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> Taxpayer funded events should be held to a higher standard.


Perhaps, but every student (parent) had to pay an additional fee for grad.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Perhaps, but every student (parent) had to pay an additional fee for grad.


And it should have been outdoors in accordance with the rules set by the relevant school boards, and recommendations from the province.

Why the principal seems to have done something else is beyond me.

Though there is the possibility that sags is simply lying.


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> And it should have been outdoors in accordance with the rules set by the relevant school boards, and recommendations from the province.
> 
> Why the principal seems to have done something else is beyond me.
> 
> Though there is the possibility that sags is simply lying.


No mention of my kids’ ceremony being outside in the email we got. Although, my kid says it’s definitely outside. We’ll see next week.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Almost 300 people packed into the high school auditorium, nobody wearing a mask, everyone yelling and shouting out cheering the students


Yup, you just attended a super-spreader event.



Money172375 said:


> 300?! You do realize tens of thousand have been attending concerts and live sports for months.


That's true, but kids are particularly strong disease-spreaders. It's not their fault, they just aren't mature enough yet to practice better hygiene and by the nature of playing, they spread more disease. Again not their fault, that's natural for children, but cramming 300 people + kids indoors is really STUPID. Hopefully they opened external windows and ran fans to ventilate the auditorium. That would make it safer.

I'm astounded that anyone would attend such a thing without a mask.

The indoor concerts and live sports events should also have capacity limits (it's more about density limits actually) but I suspect they are a bit less dangerous, as most adults are vaccinated [ meaning even if infected, they'll have lower viral loads ]. Masks should be mandatory at these events as well.

*Basically we should still have: mandatory masks for large indoor gatherings, and some capacity limits.*


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> *Basically we should still have: mandatory masks for large indoor gatherings, and some capacity limits.*


Why?
It isn't like we have a dangerous virus running around.
Do you wear a mask during flu season?


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Why?
> It isn't like we have a dangerous virus running around.


 ... has the pandemic been "officially (this excludes you)" declared over? Has it been degraded to an epidemic? How about an endemic? Answers are NO.
*



Do you wear a mask during flu season?

Click to expand...

*... Don't know about anyone else but I will FOR SURE knowing what I know now. Especially on "infectious" "respiratory" diseases which include the flu, the cold and obviously Covid.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... has the pandemic been "officially (this excludes you)" declared over? Has it been degraded to an epidemic? How about an endemic? Answers are NO.


No, because that's not how it works.

It's not currently a significant public health problem, a new virus/variant might be, but COVID19 itself, nope.
We have all sorts of dangerous diseases out there, but when they aren't a risk, we ignore them.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> No, because that's not how it works.


 .... then how does it work? You might consider joining WHO. If that's too ambitious, try the CMO's spot as I'm still waiting for a plan for Ontario's surgical/hospital back log problems caused by the pandemic.



> It's not currently a significan public health problem, a new virus/variant might be, but COVID19 itself, nope.


 ... ain't that being reactive than proactive? Is this typically how management do things these days?


----------



## MrMatt

MrMatt said:


> It's not currently a significant public health problem, a new virus/variant might be, but COVID19 itself, nope.





Beaver101 said:


> ... ain't that being reactive than proactive? Is this typically how management do things these days?


Well yeah, if it isn't likely to be a problem, you don't worry about it.
I put away my snow shovel, because its 30° and I'm not too worried about a snowstorm.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> National incident declared after UK health officials detect polio virus in London sewage samples
> 
> Hopefully this is just contained in the UK, London specifically.


Coincidentally, they have let in 10's of thousands of migrants over the last few years from 3rd world countries while having no data at all on their lifetime vaccination history.

But, let me guess...you think that factual comment about unknown medical history is somehow racist.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Coincidentally, they have let in 10's of thousands of migrants over the last few years from 3rd world countries while having no data at all on their lifetime vaccination history.
> 
> But, let me guess...you think that factual comment about unknown medical history is somehow racist.


 ... complain to Boris then. I don't live in the UK.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... complain to Boris then. I don't live in the UK.


I don't live in the UK either, I was just pointing out a fact.

Hopefully the open border at Roxham doesn't introduce another unwanted disease into Canada, or maybe it already has.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Why?
> It isn't like we have a dangerous virus running around.
> Do you wear a mask during flu season?


We do have a dangerous virus running around. It's dangerous because it's still quite new and we don't really understand some of the side effects of disease, such as long COVID (which appears to include brain impairment) plus damage to children's livers, another possible side effect. The most recent study on the children's liver problems suggested a link to COVID infection. Remember that some of these kids need liver transplants.

So first of all, the virus is dangerous. It's all relative of course, but this is more dangerous than a standard cold & flu.

Second, it's *continuously circulating* at far greater levels than what we get with influenza. The flu is also dangerous by the way, and kills people too, but the flu season is rather limited to about 4 months. COVID on the other hand, is circulating very broadly and has not settled into a seasonal pattern.

Not sure why you have trouble grasping this @MrMatt . In June, do you ever recall everyone's families coming down with cases of the flu?

You are taking COVID too lightly, IMO. It does cause organ damage, including to heart / lungs / brain / liver in some % of cases. It kills some % of cases. And it's absolutely more dangerous than the flu, which itself is quite dangerous.

It's circulating at greater levels than the flu, and continuously circulating in all seasons.


----------



## HappilyRetired

There are also a lot of side effects showing up related to those who took the vaccine. Myocarditis is well documented (which my nephew contracted immediately after getting the shot). SADS...sudden adult death syndrome is now an issue. We might only be seeing the tip of the iceberg.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Second, it's *continuously circulating* at far greater levels than what we get with influenza.


And it's been doing this for THOUSANDS OF YEARS.



> Not sure why you have trouble grasping this @MrMatt . In June, do you ever recall everyone's families coming down with cases of the flu?


Yes, almost every time.
Was yours the magical family where they didn't spread it to each other?



> It's circulating at greater levels than the flu, and continuously circulating in all seasons.


I know, that's what Coronaviruses do.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> And it's been doing this for THOUSANDS OF YEARS.


SARS-CoV-2 did not circulate for thousands of years. It's a *novel* virus.

We don't fully understand the disease. It appears to harm some people's vital organs, even children's organs.

This is not equivalent to common cold/flu that we have become accustomed to. It's dangerous because it's NEW and not fully understood. It takes some time for us to get up to speed to the point where it's OK to let it circulate like this.

In a year or something, and once medicine gets up to speed a bit more, I'll have no concerns. But at the moment, all of my doctor friends (and docs I know span ages 30 to 70) all say the same thing to me --- try to avoid catching this, because we don't really know what's going on with it, and some % of people get it really bad.

Every doctor I know has told me to try to avoid catching it. Most of them seem to be really careful too. They haven't thrown up their hands and said "well no problem, I'll let my whole family catch it"


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> SARS-CoV-2 did not circulate for thousands of years. It's a *novel* virus.


It's just one of the most recent variants of the coronavirus.
Bit more lethal, acts a bit differently at times, but it's basically a Coronavirus, and for the most part it's acting exactly how we expect a coronavirus to act.

I think some people want to stay in emergency mode a bit longer.

An honest question for your doctor friends, are they putting their lives on hold and locking themselves away, or have they gotten on with their lives?


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> An honest question for your doctor friends, are they putting their lives on hold and locking themselves away, or have they gotten on with their lives?


I don't understand why you're so caught up on this "living your life" thing and "emergency mode" thing.

I've been living my life since 2021 and just about everyone I know has as well. We just take more caution to adapt to circumstances. These doctors are careful to wear masks in high risk environments, but they are travelling, socializing etc. As I am as well.

There are some things my doc friends aren't doing. They are *not* joining large crowded gatherings, not inviting many guests over to their houses. When they have family members who show symptoms, they stay away from them. That's just smart and it's what everyone should be doing.

This isn't a binary thing. You don't either take COVID seriously or just go back to doing stupid behaviours. There's such a thing as nuance... live your life, while taking precautions and adding extra safeguards.

MrMatt you have a very extreme view of this situation. You're still talking about "emergency mode". Nobody is saying there's an emergency, nobody is saying to lock yourself up or not live life. What people like me are saying is to take more precautions and have more safeguards, and have some public health policies which help curtail the spread of disease.

The Public Health measures are necessary (IMO) because people are too stupid to do it themselves. This is an infectious disease, so another person's stupidity impacts me.


----------



## damian13ster

Well, for you 'living life' is different than for others.
Respect that and continue living your life and butt out from others' lives


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Well, for you 'living life' is different than for others.
> Respect that and continue living your life and butt out from others' lives


 ... that's oxymoron(ic) talk about telling others to "respecting how they live life" when accusing others of wanting to continue living in an emergency mode. I would not be the least surprised if I walked the street, you would be the type to ridicule my masking, if not tearing it off.

As for telling others to "butt" out, don't tell me you have never seen/consulted a (medical) doctor in your life. And that you own the air on this planet.


----------



## TomB16

BA.5 is starting to spread in the US like an activating Clarence Thomas sleeper cell.

BA.5 is out competing BA.2. The BA.2 peak looks to have lasted about 7 weeks in the UK so BA.5 should bring added immunity at least as fast.

So, I have stopped worrying about getting BA.5 before fall.


----------



## Money172375

Never heard of this…. A COVID prevention drug now available.









There’s a COVID-prevention drug that can protect vulnerable patients. Doctors say not enough people know about it


Evusheld, authorized for people with weakened immune systems like transplant patients, is in some Ontario hospitals. Patients call it “life-changing.”




www.thestar.com


----------



## james4beach

Today I received two more texts from friends who've just caught COVID.

One of them believes they caught it at a concert event.


----------



## TomB16

From what I can tell, North American statistics lag base reality quite a bit. When it is announced we have our first BA.5 case here, we have probably had BA.5 for a while and it is spreading fast.

I think we are well into a BA.5 wave but it's tough to tell because hospitalizations are not going up. Hospitalizations are expected to go up a bit but not like previous waves. There will be a few more deaths also but, again, low numbers compared to previous waves.

This should be our first look at endemicity.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> From what I can tell, North American statistics lag base reality quite a bit. When it is announced we have our first BA.5 case here, we have probably had BA.5 for a while and it is spreading fast.
> 
> I think we are well into a BA.5 wave but it's tough to tell because hospitalizations are not going up. Hospitalizations are expected to go up a bit but not like previous waves. There will be a few more deaths also but, again, low numbers compared to previous waves.
> 
> *This should be our first look at endemicity.*


 ... and just where do you propose to do that? Are we, the "public" supposedly to be doing those medical experts jobs' now? In doing own research, studying and drawing conclusions from whatever data you propose to search at/for. If so, then I WANT my tax dollars BACK!


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> There were no restrictions in the public school graduation ceremonies yesterday for our grandson.
> 
> Almost 300 people packed into the high school auditorium, nobody wearing a mask, everyone yelling and shouting out cheering the students as they accepted their diplomas. The irony is the teachers and principal spent a lot of time talking about how well the school and students managed through the covid pandemic.
> 
> Then they decide to abandon all precautions the last time the students will gather together. You just gotta wonder..........
> 
> If anyone in the audience has covid..........many of us are going to get covid.


My best advice for you is stay in your home and don't let anyone in.


----------



## james4beach

Another example of where someone caught COVID. A friend from Winnipeg is certain that she caught it at a Winnipeg Jets game.

I guess cramming thousands of maskless screaming people into an arena isn't so safe.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Another example of where someone caught COVID. A friend from Winnipeg is certain that she caught it at a Winnipeg Jets game.
> 
> I guess cramming thousands of maskless screaming people into an arena isn't so safe.


 ... you think them Public Health officials care anymore? I guess the hospitals are not swamped enough and those who now chooses to catch Covid this way has an excuse to play hooky in not having to go into work or maybe to impressive the boss as being heroic by either going into work sick or WAH sick. Either way, each to their own. Oh well.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Another example of where someone caught COVID. A friend from Winnipeg is certain that she caught it at a Winnipeg Jets game.
> 
> I guess cramming thousands of maskless screaming people into an arena isn't so safe.


She caught one of the omicron variants. We will all catch it eventually, so she was destined to get it, and this way she got to watch the Jets beat the Kraken.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> She caught one of the omicron variants. We will all catch it eventually, so she was destined to get it, and this way she got to watch the Jets beat the Kraken.


 ... catching it yourself is okay but spreading to others is NOT. Only a stupid idiot would be stupid enough to expose oneself to catching it. And a assed-jerk for spreading it intentionally.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... catching it yourself is okay but spreading to others is NOT. Only a stupid idiot would be stupid enough to expose oneself to catching it. And a assed-jerk for spreading it intentionally.


There are definitely people with symptoms out in society, endangering others. And I'm sure they go to a hockey game when sick, because ya know... it's the big game gotta go support the team!

But really when you have such large crowds, spreading covid is almost inevitable due to the statistics.

I would prefer capacity limits in general, or require masks in such dense/crowded areas.


----------



## TomB16

"It's just a cold."


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... you think them Public Health officials care anymore? I guess the hospitals are not swamped enough and those who now chooses to catch Covid this way has an excuse to play hooky in not having to go into work or maybe to impressive the boss as being heroic by either going into work sick or WAH sick. Either way, each to their own. Oh well.


Hospitals are still struggling because so many of the staff are out sick. When you have so much covid circulating in society, a lot of people are sick and unable to work... I'd say that's a problem.

It's not a mild cold. I have now heard 3 reports of recent COVID from a few friends in the last 4 days (it's aggressively spreading these days).

The onset (day 1) can be misleading as it sounds quite mild, scratchy throat, sinus issues.
Days 2 - 5 can be quite rough -- often described as a "severe flu".
Alleviates after that, often with lingering cough or voice problems.
People seem to feel rotten or run down for up to 10 days.

So it can easily put someone out of commission for 10 days, no question. I'm sure if someone is unlucky that stretches to 14.

Summer in Canada lasts maybe 100 days. Do you really want to lose 10% of that due to COVID? I sure as hell don't!


----------



## zinfit

TomB16 said:


> "It's just a cold."


Your right . I got it and it was a mild cold and I am 76. Every second person I know had it and that is there reaction. Alberta's ICU level is so low it doesn't make sense to report the numbers.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... and just where do you propose to do that? Are we, the "public" supposedly to be doing those medical experts jobs' now? In doing own research, studying and drawing conclusions from whatever data you propose to search at/for. If so, then I WANT my tax dollars BACK!


I do not represent my own specific analysis or data. All I am doing is reading data from various sources, primarily European, and listening to physicians who I believe to be objective. The point being, I am a conduit who presents the information I believe to be the least biased.




Beaver101 said:


> ... you think them Public Health officials care anymore? I guess the hospitals are not swamped enough and those who now chooses to catch Covid this way has an excuse to play hooky in not having to go into work or maybe to impressive the boss as being heroic by either going into work sick or WAH sick. Either way, each to their own. Oh well.


Yes. Canadian healthcare workers, by and large, do care. Our healthcare system is decent, if not world beating. The problem is they are also quite ignorant. Instead of reading the data, which would take a whole lot of time, they rely on information fed to them. The information fed to our healthcare system has not proven itself to be nearly as objective as some other countries.

Please notice, I don't specifically cite the WHO because I believe the organization is either corrupt or wildly incompetent. This, despite having a ton of the planet's best physicians. The African COVID booster shot program cost a ton of money to immunize a population in which nobody is dying of COVID. Africans are dying of dengue fever and malaria. The mortality rate of untreated dengue fever is 20%. That's 1 in 5. Treated, the mortality rate drops to 2~3%, Meanwhile, money is spent on COVID boosters they don't need. Brutal.

What's more, the COVID juice we sent to Africa was not allocated democratically. It went to the wealthiest Africans. A friend in Lagos was fully vaccinated before I had my first shot. Our donated medical supplies make a tiny group of Africans very wealthy.


----------



## TomB16

zinfit said:


> Your right . I got it and it was a mild cold and I am 76. Every second person I know had it and that is there reaction. Alberta's ICU level is so low it doesn't make sense to report the numbers.


It was in quotes. I was mocking the people who go out in public, cough up a lung, and will say, "it's just a cold". I'll bet those people drive James and Beav around the bend. 

Omicron was just a cold for me, also. I had immunity from COVID classic back in January of 2020 before COVID was here in North America, so it wasn't a big deal.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> Omicron was just a cold for me, also. I had immunity from COVID classic back in January of 2020 before COVID was here in North America, so it wasn't a big deal.


It's just a lottery and game of chance.

For most people, it's pretty minor and not a big deal. But for some % of people the symptoms linger, and it seems to cause some harm to organs such as lungs, heart, brain, liver.

My friend's girlfriend is currently in the hospital due to severe COVID. She's in her 30s and triple vaccinated. This is rare though... in the post-vaccine world, she's the only example I've heard, in my circles, of someone ending up in hospital.

And some young children, who were previously perfectly healthy, end up having the livers destroyed and require liver transplants. It's rare but there are enough cases that it has global visibility now.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> Your right . I got it and it was a mild cold and I am 76. Every second person I know had it and that is there reaction. Alberta's ICU level is so low it doesn't make sense to report the numbers.


 ... a "mild cold" at that age ... sounds more like an allergy than anything else.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> It was in quotes. I was mocking the people who go out in public, cough up a lung, and will say, "it's just a cold". I'll bet those people drive James and Beav around the bend.


 ... I would rather be driven up a bend than being ventilated, struggling to say "it's just a cold! or a regular flu!" Let's see who'll be laughing then.



> Omicron was just a cold for me, also. I had immunity from COVID classic back in January of 2020 before COVID was here in North America, so it wasn't a big deal.


 ... and what's classic Covid? An flu? You realize that people do die from flus too, no?


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... I would rather be driven up a bend than being ventilated, struggling to say "it's just a cold! or a regular flu!" Let's see who'll be laughing then.


Few things provide a more satisfying laugh than thinking about someone dying from asphyxiation from lungs compromised by infection.

[Note for thought compromised readers: that was sarcasm and a little cut on Beav.... just the way he likes it.]


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I do not represent my own specific analysis or data. All I am doing is reading data from various sources, primarily European, and listening to physicians who I believe to be objective. The point being, I am a conduit who presents the information I believe to be the least biased.


 ... re-read your post. So you're saying 1. the European physicians are the "experts" and 2. our (NA) stats should trend like that from Europe? And that you drawn the conclusion we're in an "endemic". Since when did Europe, like what country stated we're in an endemic. What happened to the epidemic that preceded it assuming the pandemic has disappeared?



> _
> #2,799 · 17 h ago (Edited)
> 
> From what I can tell, North American statistics lag base reality quite a bit. When it is announced we have our first BA.5 case here, we have probably had BA.5 for a while and it is spreading fast.
> 
> I think we are well into a BA.5 wave but it's tough to tell because hospitalizations are not going up. Hospitalizations are expected to go up a bit but not like previous waves. There will be a few more deaths also but, again, low numbers compared to previous waves.
> 
> This should be our first look at endemicity._





> Yes. Canadian healthcare workers, by and large, do care. Our healthcare system is decent, if not world beating. The problem is they are also quite ignorant. Instead of reading the data, which would take a whole lot of time, they rely on information fed to them. The information fed to our healthcare system has not proven itself to be nearly as objective as some other countries.


 ... don't you think your first statement above contradicts this one? NA (which includes Canada) public health experts rely on info fed to them 'cause NA stats are lagging and yet they are ignorant. And yes, I don't disagree with the ignorant part jow - not on "healthcare workers" like those working the hospital but the "public health officials", those who sits on their duffs in the office instead of tending patients. 



> Please notice, I don't specifically cite the WHO because I believe the organization is either corrupt or wildly incompetent. This, despite having a ton of the planet's best physicians.


 ... then what's the make up of WHO?


> The African COVID booster shot program cost a ton of money to immunize a population in which nobody is dying of COVID. Africans are dying of dengue fever and malaria. The mortality rate of untreated dengue fever is 20%. That's 1 in 5. Treated, the mortality rate drops to 2~3%, Meanwhile, money is spent on COVID boosters they don't need. Brutal.


... how do you know that they don't have Covid and nobody there is dying from that given your conjectures here, they're dead from dengue fever and malaria first before Covid got a chance to hit. 



> What's more, the COVID juice we sent to Africa was not allocated democratically. It went to the wealthiest Africans. A friend in Lagos was fully vaccinated before I had my first shot. Our donated medical supplies make a tiny group of Africans very wealthy.


 ... do you think Canada is an exception? If the vaccine had costed $100 a shot say, do you think you, as someone not on the upper echelon of society, would have easily gotten one? Moreover, do you think we will have them stupid anti-vax protests (with so many of them)? I think not on both accounts.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... and what's classic Covid? An flu? You realize that people do die from flus too, no?


This is what I've been saying since February, when I was attacked in here with info that, while contrarian, turned out to be correct. It wasn't my info, by the way. I am just a conduit for a group of doctors I believe have an objective point of view.

Once people have some immunity to COVID, which omicron provides brilliantly, COVID risk becomes very manageable. I *speculate* future COVID infections will carry similar risk to a cold but probably lower than the risk from flu. Obviously, there is no data on this so we are going to find out.

People taking their first COVID infection will be far worse off than someone with worn off vaccine immunity and no other defence. Omicron is the lowest risk path to gaining a long term immune response to COVID. Even though there is data to show there are plenty of examples of immune escape with different strains and occasionally even the same strain, it is still a completely different risk profile than someone who has never had an infection and has not been vaccinated within 20 weeks.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> It probably wouldn't be you laughing as you would be busy chocking on your own fluids.


 ... ah, which would you rather see me in "driven up the bend" or "ventilated"?


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> This is what I've been saying since February, when I was attacked in here with info that, while contrarian, turned out to be correct. It wasn't my info, by the way. I am just a conduit for a group of doctors I believe have an objective point of view.


 ... "a contrarian" and at the same time "a conduit for a groups of doctors who have an objective POV (according to you)" ... that's a new one.



> Once people have some immunity to COVID, which omicron provides brilliantly, COVID risk becomes very manageable. I *speculate* future COVID infections will carry similar risk to a cold but probably lower than the risk from flu.
> 
> People taking their first COVID infection will be far worse off than someone with worn off vaccine immunity and no other defence. Omicron is the lowest risk path to gaining a long term immune response to COVID. Even though there is data to show there are plenty of examples of immune escape with different strains and occasionally even the same strain, it is still a completely different risk profile than someone who has never had an infection and has not been vaccinated within 20 weeks.


 ... your POV. Some people chooses not to get Covid. And some people loves to get them 10 times over. Let's see how lucky the latter gets.


----------



## zinfit

james4beach said:


> It's just a lottery and game of chance.
> 
> For most people, it's pretty minor and not a big deal. But for some % of people the symptoms linger, and it seems to cause some harm to organs such as lungs, heart, brain, liver.
> 
> My friend's girlfriend is currently in the hospital due to severe COVID. She's in her 30s and triple vaccinated. This is rare though... in the post-vaccine world, she's the only example I've heard, in my circles, of someone ending up in hospital.
> 
> And some young children, who were previously perfectly healthy, end up having the livers destroyed and require liver transplants. It's rare but there are enough cases that it has global visibility now.


that's true and the people with two or more serious pre conditions are even more vulnerable to the flu. We can live in a free society with its incumbent risks or we can live in a hermit states. Getting in my car and driving to the grocery store has risks. That is part and parcel of a free society.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... ah, which would you rather see me in "driven up the bend" or "ventilated"?


Beaver, I like tilting with you in here. We beat each other's brains in and it's kind of fun. Bring it. Honestly. I know you to be a good person and appreciate having access to your perspective, even when I do not share it.

But... no matter what happens, I am convicted in my wish for you and the people you love to remain in the best health possible. Joking aside, I don't wish anything bad to happen to you.

Please don't let this cause you to go easy on me, you large, semi-aquatic, rodent.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Beaver, I like tilting with you in here. We beat each other's brains in and it's kind of fun. Bring it. Honestly. I know you to be a good person and appreciate having access to your perspective, even when I do not share it.
> 
> But... no matter what happens, I am convicted in my wish for you and the people you love to remain in the best health possible. Joking aside, I don't wish anything bad to happen to you.
> 
> Please don't let this cause you to go easy on me, you large, semi-aquatic, rodent.


 .. okay, just keep throwing them sticks at me. I'm just snaring at the moment.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... re-read your post. So you're saying 1. the European physicians are the "experts" and 2. our (NA) stats should trend like that from Europe? And that you drawn the conclusion we're in an "endemic". Since when did Europe, like what country stated we're in an endemic. What happened to the epidemic that preceded it assuming the pandemic has disappeared?


No. That straw man argument is ridiculous.

I look for data I believe is objective and it comes from non-physicians (zoe data, for example), as well as physicians, all over the world including North America. There are amazing people everywhere.

In terms of public data, Europe has a lot less motivation to push vaccines.

The US is pushing vaccination on 6 month to 11 year olds. They are recommending it but I have been able to find alarmingly little data. The only study I can find was done by Pfizer and involved 10 covid cases. This is not an at-risk group so I question the risk/reward of this but there could be data that I've either missed or is not shared with the public.

Meanwhile, the UK has approved use of vaccine for 6 month to 11 year old children in a "non-urgent" memo that allows it for parents who want it but it is not a campaign. That seems like a far more reasonable approach, IMO.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> No. That straw man argument is ridiculous.
> 
> I look for data I believe is objective and it comes from non-physicians (zoe data, for example), as well as physicians, all over the world including North America. There are amazing people everywhere.


 ... what straw-man argument? I asked a simple question: which country has declared Covid is an epidemic for them (assuming it's no longer a pandemic)? I hope you do realize the order of things (aka simple science here), a pandemic reduces to an epidemic and then to an endemic. You jumped right into dealing with endemicity in your earlier post. So which country has declared themselves in an epidemic first?

You can save the vaccine-pushing stuffs for later.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... what straw-man argument? I asked a simple question: which country has declared Covid is an epidemic for them (assuming it's no longer a pandemic)? I hope you do realize the order of things (aka simple science here), a pandemic reduces to an epidemic and then to an endemic. You jumped right into dealing with endemicity in your earlier post. So which country has declared themselves in an epidemic first?


Beaver, you are trying to redefine history but your question is still in the list.



Beaver101 said:


> ... re-read your post. So you're saying 1. the European physicians are the "experts" and 2. our (NA) stats should trend like that from Europe? And that you drawn the conclusion we're in an "endemic". Since when did Europe, like what country stated we're in an endemic. What happened to the epidemic that preceded it assuming the pandemic has disappeared?


You built a house of twigs and branches across my stream of thought.

The data I trust is non-American data. I trust Canadian data far more than American data but I will take it from anywhere that seems to be objective.

NA stats _should_ trend similar to other countries. They somewhat do in Canada, for what little data we collect, but the US has been quite unique. BA.5 should be dominating the American biosphere, like it does everywhere else, but it shows as a very low ratio of infections. Either the data does not represent their situation or there is something interesting going on in the US.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> I would prefer capacity limits in general, or require masks in such dense/crowded areas.


Why?

What if the law made it illegal to require anyone attend a large or crowded event but did not make it outright illegal?

So, your boss can have an all-employees meeting in the coffee room but you can opt out and listen to the call at your desk while you grumble about the lack of microwave access.

It would empower people to make their own choices without the fascist overtones.


----------



## TomB16

For the sake of clarity, endemicity does not mean COVID will be eradicated. It just means it will be a manageable, non primary, health concern.

There are colds that spread around the globe in the same waves as COVID but we don't track them as a pandemic. They probably kill some people but they don't congest the hospitals and the risk is generally low.

This is what it sounds like COVID will look like in the future. People who have COVID immunity will still be hit by strains that can penetrate that immunity but the mortality rate will be very low, compared to the early COVID waves when we didn't have herd immunity. In other words, it will turn into just another cold.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Beaver, you are trying to redefine history but your question is still in the list.


 ... no, I'm not trying to define history here. Nor am I trying to deflect. I asked a simple question based on the statement of your post 2599, primarily



> _This should be our first look at endemicity._


 ... so after all that objective findings from Europe, you're declaring we, Canada, is in an endemic.



> You built a house of twigs and branches across my stream of thought.
> 
> The data I trust is non-American data. I trust Canadian data far more than American data but I will take it from anywhere that seems to be objective.
> 
> NA stats _should_ trend similar to other countries. They somewhat do in Canada, for what little data we collect, but the US has been quite unique. BA.5 should be dominating the American biosphere, like it does everywhere else, but it shows as a very low ratio of infections. Either the data does not represent their situation or there is something interesting going on in the US.


 ... which then means the epidemic in "NA" has disappeared. Ie. the USA has no epidemic despite your reliable "European" (presumably UK) data says BA.4 and BA.5 will be soon arriving (or maybe it has already) in the USA first before it hits Canada. If that's the case, then what endemic to deal with since we're attached at the hips with the USA. If they have no epidemic that means no endemic either. So what endemicity do we Canada need to deal with? Covid was a fidget of our imagination.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... so after all that objective findings from Europe, you're declaring we, Canada, is in an endemic.


Good job trying to redefine my posts.

I suspect we are in an endemic. BA.5 is probably widespread but the death rate is well down. In time, we will know for sure.

So, please stop turning my "COVID is probably an endemic" into "So, you just said you know with absolute certainty we are in an endemic."


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... which then means the epidemic in "NA" has disappeared. Ie. the USA has no epidemic despite your reliable "European" (presumably UK) data says BA.4 and BA.5 will be soon arriving (or maybe it has already) in the USA first before it hits Canada. If that's the case, then what endemic to deal with since we're attached at the hips with the USA. If they have no epidemic that means no endemic either. So what endemicity do we Canada need to deal with? Covid was a fidget of our imagination.


Everywhere else that sequences infections has found BA.5 out competes BA.2.* (the previous most infectious variant). BA.5 rolls into an area and will dominate in a reasonably short time. BA.5 is more contagious than the measles.

Sequencing in the US shows BA.5 has been around for a while but doesn't seem to be dominating. That is anomalous. 

I do not know what is causing this anomaly. All I am saying is the sequencing effort ought to be audited, along with many other factors, to figure it out.

I need to run. I will leave you to disagree with other people for a while.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> For the sake of clarity, endemicity does not mean COVID will be eradicated. It just means it will be a manageable, non primary, health concern.


 ... I didn't not say endemicity means eradication. You came up with that term and I asked you a simple question relating to that term. From Merriam's dictionary definition for that:

*



Medical Definition of endemicity

Click to expand...

*


> *: *_the quality or state of being __endemic_
> 
> *Medical Definition of endemic*
> (Entry 1 of 2)
> *: *_restricted or peculiar to a locality or region
> 
> (Entry 2 of 2)
> 1*: *an endemic disease or an instance of its occurrence_


 ... so does this mean Covid will be localized? Ie. not occurring elsewhere in the world? Are you certain of that? if so, why bother with reading Europe's data/doctors' objective opinions? 



> There are colds that spread around the globe in the same waves as COVID but we don't track them as a pandemic. They probably kill some people but they don't congest the hospitals and the risk is generally low.
> 
> This is what it sounds like COVID will look like in the future. People who have COVID immunity will still be hit by strains that can penetrate that immunity but the mortality rate will be very low, compared to the early COVID waves when we didn't have herd immunity. In other words, it will turn into just another cold.


 ... now it's just a "cold" (not even a flu by golly). The downplaying game when you can't give a straight answer to a simple question.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Good job trying to redefine my posts.
> 
> I suspect we are in an endemic. BA.5 is probably widespread but the death rate is well down. In time, we will know for sure.
> 
> *So, please stop turning my "COVID is probably an endemic" into "So, you just said you know with absolute certainty we are in an endemic."*


 ... no, I'm not even trying to say either of that (in bold). We're not even in an epidemic, let alone an endemic. We would very lucky if we can get out of this "pandemic" of which I'm still waiting for an "official" declaration "as being over" from even one nation on this planet, let alone WHO.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> that's true and the people with two or more serious pre conditions are even more vulnerable to the flu. We can live in a free society with its incumbent risks or we can live in a hermit states. Getting in my car and driving to the grocery store has risks. That is part and parcel of a free society.


We disagree on what is normal and acceptable.

Having respiratory disease (COVID) run rampant through peak summer months isn't normal. That never happens in normal years. So this is a sign that COVID still hasn't settled down, and is still an "outside the norm" problem -- that requires extra measures.

Normally, summer has the lowest respiratory disease and no flu at all. Instead, COVID is currently infecting everyone, and there's huge absenteeism because employees (including medical workers) are out sick.

COVID will eventually become like that, but it hasn't happened yet. Once it's in a normal seasonal pattern things will be fine, but we're not there yet.


----------



## damian13ster

Things are already fine - you simply refuse to accept that. 
Just don't lecture those who already did and are going on about normal lives (and yes, that includes packed arenas, concerts, travel, etc.)


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Having respiratory disease (COVID) run rampant through peak summer months isn't normal.


We have all had summer colds. They are less frequent than winter bugs but it happens.


----------



## damian13ster

TomB16 said:


> We have all had summer colds. They are less frequent than winter bugs but it happens.


Plus we never had restrictions, capacity limits, mandatory masking for winter cold/flu season. So why have it for summer one if that happens?


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... now it's just a "cold" (not even a flu by golly). The downplaying game when you can't give a straight answer to a simple question.


Beaver, please.

Have you heard of someone who died after a *second* covid infection?


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Beaver, please.
> 
> Have you heard of someone who died after a *second* covid infection?


 ... not if they're already dead from getting "real" Covid in the first place. I guess those Covid deads are an after-thought now. Definitely, humans have a short memory.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Plus we never had restrictions, capacity limits, mandatory masking for winter cold/flu season. So why have it for summer one if that happens?


 ... are you still having them masking mandates nightmares? I would think so 'cause Canada is a commie country, full of Nazis that you can't wait to get out but yet still here.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Things are already fine - you simply refuse to accept that.
> Just don't lecture those who already did and are going on about normal lives (and yes, that includes packed arenas, concerts, travel, etc.)


 ... how fine is it with the hospital elective surgeries/procedures back-logged for .... years ... all due to the pandemic? Is not the case you simply "refuse" to "see" it 'cause you don't or ever will need the service. All due to being too busy blasting your horns here while claiming you don't hesitate to be in packed areas/concerts, and doing travelling around the globe on this forum at the same time. Amazing, can be in 2 places at the same time.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> We have all had summer colds. They are less frequent than winter bugs but it happens.


 ... I never had a summer "cold" but I did have the summer "flu". And the severity of that "flu" can be just as bad as a "winter" one. No thanks, you keep them ALL. I'm not loving them.


----------



## Beaver101

Canada's COVID-19 response compares well with other countries, study finds

No thanks to the anti-maskers, anti-vaxxers, anti-Trudeaurs, anti-everything-of-you-but-not-me, etc., and the not anti-freedumb supporters, cry-babies, and air-hoggers, etc, on these results for Canada.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... I never had a summer "cold" but I did have the summer "flu". And the severity of that "flu" can be just as bad as a "winter" one. No thanks, you keep them ALL. I'm not loving them.


I didn't realize covid had an opt-out clause.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I didn't realize covid had an opt-out clause.


 ... not if you've the fixated mindset that Covid is merely the "cold" now. Re-read your post responding to J4B:



> #2,835 · 10 h ago
> james4beach said:
> Having respiratory disease (COVID) run rampant through peak summer months isn't normal.
> 
> 
> 
> We have all had summer colds. They are less frequent than winter bugs but it happens.
Click to expand...

 ... so are you saying that the "summer" coldS you had were ALL Covid ones? When you stated you caught all Covid versions during the "winter". So what "colds" were you referring to, if not the "regular=NON-Covid" ones? 

As for me, I never caught Covid - any versions and I want to keep it this way. Plus I don[t want to catch any nonCovid flu. Covid is NOT the cold. 

If you got a cold (or think with that fixated mindset) in the summer, that's NOT Covid, that's allergy as much as you want to muddle-fuddle and make an attempt to re-classify Covid as the "cold". In your head, it's the "cold". To someone else, it's Covid. The deadlier version of a flu-like disease. And I haven't got into "long" Covid yet.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... not if you've the fixated mindset that Covid is merely the "cold" now. Re-read your post responding to J4B:


The severity of COVID risk is going down as the population builds immunity.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> Canada's COVID-19 response compares well with other countries, study finds
> 
> No thanks to the anti-maskers, anti-vaxxers, anti-Trudeaurs, anti-everything-of-you-but-not-me, etc., and the not anti-freedumb supporters, cry-babies, and air-hoggers, etc, on these results for Canada.


You insult everyone who has a different opinion than you do. But if someone questions your loose facts or childish behavior you can't handle it.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> You insult everyone who has a different opinion than you do. But if someone questions your loose facts or childish behavior you can't handle it.


 ... talking about yourself? What "loose facts" when the link is published right there on a national news site for the entire world to see.

No, you don't insult everyone who has a "different opinion" than you 'cause you're a trolling saint. 

As said, complain to Boris about the "illegal immigrants from X countries" going to the UK. Even you don't live in the UK but loves to live in Canada and bash its policies. And yes, no thanks to the ilks like you for those results in the link. Happy now.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> The severity of COVID risk is going down as the population builds immunity.


 ... and if it re-surges, will you eat your words here? Btw, I ain't no scientist, virologist, or Covid expert to make such a prediction. 

Covid aka the pandemic will only be over when an "official" declaration is made by a nation and/a team of medical experts that include the above. Until then, all statements are understood as made by experts-wannabees aka "opinions". Bye.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> We disagree on what is normal and acceptable.
> 
> Having respiratory disease (COVID) run rampant through peak summer months isn't normal. That never happens in normal years. So this is a sign that COVID still hasn't settled down, and is still an "outside the norm" problem -- that requires extra measures.







__





Add/Remove data - Provisional weekly death counts, by selected grouped causes of death


This table provides Canadians and researchers with provisional data to monitor weekly death trends by selected grouped causes of death in Canada. Given the delays in receiving the data from the provincial and territorial vital statistics offices, these data are considered provisional. Data in...




www150.statcan.gc.ca




100-130/wjk in winter, vs 70-80/wk in summer For Ontario in 2019.
Sure it's different, but it isn't like respiratory illness disappears in the summer.

it's interesting to note, all cause mortality drops in the summer too

[/QUOTE]
Normally, summer has the lowest respiratory disease and no flu at all. Instead, COVID is currently infecting everyone, and there's huge absenteeism because employees (including medical workers) are out sick.

COVID will eventually become like that, but it hasn't happened yet. Once it's in a normal seasonal pattern things will be fine, but we're not there yet.
[/QUOTE]
We're pretty much there, COVID is around, but people don't care.


----------



## TomB16

If the numbers from Our World in Data are correct, China has it's COVID problem well in hand with only about 100 new cases yesterday. The mayor of Shanghai has declared zero covid a success.

There are stories coming from China indicating COVID problems and far more infection than is being reported. It's difficult to know how factual they are.

Meanwhile, Beijing authorities put out an announcement indicating mass testing and travel restrictions will continue for the next five years. They later removed the five year citation.

It's tough to know what is going on over there. All western reports seem to be of humanitarian crisis but that could be our anti-China bias on display.

What if zero COVID succeeds? It doesn't seem like it could but if it did, they would have to shut themselves off from the world or their country would be ravaged.


----------



## ian

We just came back from a month in Portugal. Portuguese covid cases are surging. Currently the highest percentage case increase in Europe according to reports.

We were required to take an antigen test 24 hours prior to getting on the plane. Whilst in Portugal masks were mandatory on planes, trains, buses, and taxis. We traveled mostly by train and some bus. It was enforced.


----------



## damian13ster

Hopefully Chinese are in fact lying and the virus is spreading there giving people immunity.
Otherwise there will be rolling lockdowns just about forever


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Hopefully Chinese are in fact lying and the virus is spreading there giving people immunity.
> Otherwise there will be rolling lockdowns just about forever


And any immunity will last just shy of the next wave or new variant.


----------



## damian13ster

That's fair. Just not sure what their gameplan is. COVID is here forever and will never disappear.
For now they are getting the west into complete economic turmoil, but not like they are immune to the consequences as well


----------



## TomB16

cainvest said:


> And any immunity will last just shy of the next wave or new variant.


Immunity lasts. New variants need to be sufficiently different as to get around existing immunity.

The current Portugese wave involves a lot of infections of BA.5 but lower deaths and hospitalizations than even BA.2 in February.


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> Immunity lasts. New variants need to be sufficiently different as to get around existing immunity.
> 
> The current Portugese wave involves a lot of infections of BA.5 but lower deaths and hospitalizations than even BA.2 in February.


Facts are not on your side here. Many people are getting reinfected 3-6 months after previous infection. Hopefully these reinfections are continually milder, but immunity is not enduring.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> That's fair. Just not sure what their gameplan is. COVID is here forever and will never disappear.


Standard gameplan, try to limit spread so it doesn't overwhelm heathcare ... rinse and repeat. Covid may be around for a very, very long time if it keeps cycles going around the planet.



TomB16 said:


> Immunity lasts. New variants need to be sufficiently different as to get around existing immunity.


How long does it last? I've seen estimates from 3 months to a few years. And of course new variants could change those figures significantly.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Facts are not on your side here. Many people are getting reinfected 3-6 months after previous infection. Hopefully these reinfections are continually milder, but immunity is not enduring.


immunity has never been enduring for Coronaviruses, that's one of the problems with COVID.

That's also why there was so much livestock coronavirus research, including the mRNA vaccines.


----------



## TomB16

cainvest said:


> How long does it last? I've seen estimates from 3 months to a few years. And of course new variants could change those figures significantly.


We don't know how long it lasts, as it hasn't been very long, however, 3 months is incorrect.

The reason Wuhan and Delta are essentially gone is because so many people have been exposed to them. Omicron BA.1.* and BA.2.* are all but gone for the same reason.

Testing shows people who had sars-cov-v1 back in the early 2003/2004 still have an immune system defence mechanism after all these years. This is why it seems most likely that natural immunity is going to last a long time.

Some people seem to be smearing FUD on anything that does not align with their point of view. Is the purpose of this thread to educate ourselves or to spread the most negative possible unfounded thoughts regarding contagions in the biosphere?


----------



## cainvest

TomB16 said:


> We don't know how long it lasts, as it hasn't been very long, however, 3 months is incorrect.
> 
> The reason Wuhan and Delta are essentially gone is because so many people have been exposed to them. Omicron BA.1.* and BA.2.* are all but gone for the same reason.


Well if you'd like to show studies on confirmed reinfection cases or immunity level testing for covid I'd like to read them. One should also look at those who were infected by Omicron and had a confirmed previous variant infection.



TomB16 said:


> Testing shows people who had sars-cov-v1 back in the early 2003/2004 still have an immune system defence mechanism after all these years. This is why it seems most likely that natural immunity is going to last a long time.


A small study shows SARS decreases significantly after 3 years. 








Duration of Antibody Responses after Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome


Among 176 patients who had had severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), SARS-specific antibodies were maintained for an average of 2 years, and significant reduction of immunoglobulin G–positive percentage and titers occurred in the third year. ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





BTW, having some type of immune response and having "immunity" are not the same things.



TomB16 said:


> Some people seem to be smearing FUD on anything that does not align with their point of view. Is the purpose of this thread to educate ourselves or to spread the most negative possible unfounded thoughts regarding contagions in the biosphere?


I agree, looking forward to see your published study data on this subject.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> How long does it last? I've seen estimates from 3 months to a few years. And of course new variants could change those figures significantly.


Yes, and the immunities vary widely.
There is some correlation to the medical situation of the individual, but it's not robust enough to really predict with any accuracy.

That's why the second dose schedule was so controversial. It's hard to make clean simple rules when the science doesn't work that way.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Just not sure what their gameplan is. COVID is here forever and will never disappear.


Infectious disease experts have talked about the game plan, though I really think the government has to do more to get this out to the public so that everyone knows what's going on. Here is the game plan as I've understood it, my own wording.

*Stage 1*. Emergency response, when deaths are unacceptably high, you do whatever you can do protect people and reduce death. We already did that, this phase is over.

*Stage 2*. Transition period as the disease changes from pandemic to endemic. _This is now underway_. Caution is still required since the disease is circulating widely and still causes major health effects. The load on the healthcare system remains elevated due to it constantly circulating. It's not seasonal (yet) so we don't ever get a break from the infections or healthcare load.

*Stage 3*. Instead of spreading constantly, the disease settles into a seasonal pattern. This lets us control it with annual vaccinations, same as the flu. The situation becomes more predictable, and we know that cases will spike in cold/flu season. Then we're basically dealing with something like the flu, which is also predictable and seasonal. I believe that this pattern gets established through global patterns of immunity / natural immunity and waves occurring in different places.


I don't have expertise in this field of course but my guess, as a data modelling guy, is that the disease spread patterns are quite chaotic (considering regions of the world that are at different places, different waves) and the virus circulates until things calm down into the seasonal pattern. I would think that eventually waves start to align and there's enough natural immunity that it doesn't spread constantly.

It's not a catastrophe and it's not going to be a nuisance forever. I think we're still in Stage 2. This isn't a seasonal pattern yet, instead it's constantly and aggressively circulating. I just think a bit more patience is required.


----------



## TomB16

I've posted more data in this thread than anyone and I appreciate data posted by other people. I read most of it.

Having said that, the idea of, "you have to prove your point to my satisfaction or I will declare myself right" is not something I bother to engage in. If I can find tons of data in a short period of time, so can other people. I don't waste my time doing that.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Infectious disease experts have talked about the game plan, though I really think the government has to do more to get this out to the public so that everyone knows what's going on. Here is the game plan as I've understood it, my own wording.
> 
> *Stage 1*. Emergency response, when deaths are unacceptably high, you do whatever you can do protect people and reduce death. We already did that, this phase is over.
> 
> *Stage 2*. Transition period as the disease changes from pandemic to endemic. _This is now underway_. Caution is still required since the disease is circulating widely and still causes major health effects. The load on the healthcare system remains elevated due to it constantly circulating. It's not seasonal (yet) so we don't ever get a break from the infections or healthcare load.
> 
> *Stage 3*. Instead of spreading constantly, the disease settles into a seasonal pattern. This lets us control it with annual vaccinations, same as the flu. The situation becomes more predictable, and we know that cases will spike in cold/flu season. Then we're basically dealing with something like the flu, which is also predictable and seasonal. I believe that this pattern gets established through global patterns of immunity / natural immunity and waves occurring in different places.
> 
> 
> I don't have expertise in this field of course but my guess, as a data modelling guy, is that the disease spread patterns are quite chaotic (considering regions of the world that are at different places, different waves) and the virus circulates until things calm down into the seasonal pattern. I would think that eventually waves start to align and there's enough natural immunity that it doesn't spread constantly.
> 
> It's not a catastrophe and it's not going to be a nuisance forever. I think we're still in Stage 2. This isn't a seasonal pattern yet, instead it's constantly and aggressively circulating. I just think a bit more patience is required.


Looking at at your stages, I simply think we're in stage 2.5 and I'm not sure if "stage 3" will ever happen.

It didn't happen with SARS or MERS or many of the other more lethal Coronavirus strains.
It looks like your stages are basically assuming COVID19 starts acting like the flu. This is a WRONG ASSUMPTION. it has been since the beginning of this pandemic.

The coronavirus is NOT the influenza virus. They don't behave the same, our treatment options aren't the same, and we shouldn't think of it as the same.

Remember back in early 2020, I said that it would be great if COVID19 didn't behave like typical coronaviruses, but that finding an effective vaccine was unlikely, and that the rapid mutations of coronaviruses would likely be problematic, as has been the case historically with coronaviruses.
Guess what, we don't have an effective vaccine, because, like the experts said, and I reiterated here, coronaviruses mutate too fast.

So much for the vaccinate and get back to normal.
The big issue I have with your plan is that it's based on bad science, assumptions that we knew were not applicable to COVID 2 years ago.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> I would think that eventually waves start to align and there's enough natural immunity that it doesn't spread constantly.


I don't think it's as simple as that.

Right now, BA.5 is spreading faster than the BA.2.* family of COVID. BA.2 was able to out compete BA.1 during the time they coexisted so there is some confidence BA.2 is more contagious than BA.1. There is sufficient evidence to show that immune response generated by BA.1 will provide reasonable protection against BA.2.*. Because of this, it seems reasonable that BA.2 was slowed by following BA.1.

The point being, we cannot conclude that BA.5 is more contagious than BA.2 based on it spreading faster because BA.2 pre-existed. We can conclude that BA.5 can out compete BA.4 because they came into existence at a similar time and BA.5 dominated.

In this way, I suspect variants with immune escape to spread quickly and universally while variants facing immune resistance will tend to be minor and somewhat regional. Immune response to any of the variants will provide some protection against any other variants so I think the high death tolls have been paid and should remain lower in the future.

Even if I never had BA.1 or BA.2, I would have a better chance evading an infection of either variant now than I would have had in January of this year when they had an open field to cultivate because the people around me are far more likely to have immunity.


----------



## TomB16

How do you folks see the supply chain issues sorting out going forward? I expect people pessimistic about COVID have quite a different view than people who have a more optimistic view of the pandemic?


----------



## londoncalling

I think supply chain issues have become the justification/excuse for any undesired outcome. Now that I have got that out of my system, I think they will abate over time pending the lifting of Chines lockdown. There is definitely a shift to more protectionist and isolationist policy than we have seen in quite some time. As nations move to re-shore, there will be some bumps along the way. Resource rich nations should have an advantage in this regard but historically they seem to yield that power to the more populous manufacturers. International conflict has also played a greater role in Western relations. There is a lot to sort out but it seems like decades have been spent building up to the recent shift. For me recession is a way greater fear than Covid now. Supply chain will play a role in who and when countries get out of recession.


----------



## ian

My spouse is a retired health care professional. I stopped listening or reading second hand, third hand opinions about health issues a long time ago.

We pay attention to knowledgeable health care professionals, public health officials, and science based information. The reality is that the covid and post covid knowledge base is increasing at an exponential rate as each month passes. Who would ever suggest that treatments and precautionary measures not change in response to these learnings?

The UK is currently experiencing a serious outbreak of polio. Young adults appear to be the ones most impacted to date. Surprisingly, public health officials investigating the outbreak have found as many as 20 percent of people in this age group have not been vaccinated for polio. Hard to understand this high percentage.

Polio was supposed to have been eliminated in the UK years ago. Other nations are now reviewing these stats and their own to fully understand the risk in their respective countries.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> So much for the vaccinate and get back to normal.


Well they do have a new vaccine ... guess we'll see how good it is.

Pfizer and BioNTech Announce Omicron-Adapted COVID-19 Vaccine Candidates Demonstrate High Immune Response Against Omicron | Pfizer


----------



## james4beach

Canada had one of the best COVID responses during the pandemic (among G7 nations). Next to the lowest case rate, death rate, and highest vaccination rate.


----------



## MrMatt

MrMatt said:


> Remember back in early 2020, I said that it would be great if COVID19 didn't behave like typical coronaviruses, but that finding an effective vaccine was unlikely, and that the rapid mutations of coronaviruses would likely be problematic, as has been the case historically with coronaviruses.
> Guess what, we don't have an effective vaccine, because, like the experts said, and I reiterated here, coronaviruses mutate too fast.
> ...
> So much for the vaccinate and get back to normal.





cainvest said:


> Well they do have a new vaccine ... guess we'll see how good it is.


Probably about as well as every other coronavirus vaccine in history
My money is on various levels of effectiveness for a relatively short time.


----------



## damian13ster

But this time it will be different! - Modern Medical Theory


----------



## ian

The last reported deaths per million stat that I read was Canada 1090 deaths per million attributable to covid. The US was sitting at 3109 deaths per million population.


----------



## TomB16

COVID cases are up in the UK with deaths down a bit. I don't know what would explain those stats, other than herd immunity.






Coronavirus (COVID-19) latest insights - Office for National Statistics


The latest data and trends about the coronavirus (COVID-18) pandemic from the Office for National Statistics and other sources.



www.ons.gov.uk






Meanwhile, 99.3% of students have antibodies that indicate either vaccination or exposure to COVID. 64.9% of students have been vaccinated.






Coronavirus (COVID-19) latest insights - Office for National Statistics


The latest data and trends about the coronavirus (COVID-18) pandemic from the Office for National Statistics and other sources.



www.ons.gov.uk






The UK continues to encourage vaccines and boosters for students so they must believe immunity can be improved with vaccine, even after an infection. If they have data showing this, they are not sharing it.

In fact, they have gone out of their way to not collect data on natural immunity versus vaccination, as all governments have. Zoe data did some work on it but were then defunded by ONS.

At some point, we are going to need a private organization to study natural immune response compared to vaccinated response or governments are going to spend billions on vaccines forever. We might learn that we need vaccines forever but objective data would still be preferable to not knowing.


----------



## james4beach

Some more daily COVID updates. Every day I hear of someone else catching it.

One friend flew from Spain back to Montreal, and tested positive shortly after.
Another friend flew back from Greece to the US and tested positive within 48 hours of arrival. They've been sick for the last week.

I wonder if people are catching it at airports these days? Hard to narrow down.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I wonder if people are catching it at airports these days? Hard to narrow down.


I'd put money on sitting close together in a small metal tube for several hours.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Some more daily COVID updates. Every day I hear of someone else catching it.


It is a shame we don't do more sequencing to know what variant these infections are. I suspect they are primarily BA.5.

Someone needs to sequence or we will not know how long either natural or immunized protection lasts. We currently go out of our way to not determine who has natural immunity and who has it from immunization. It would be easy to test but it has become clear we are going out of our way to not determine how much immunization is helping. They aren't doing it in UK either, so it will remain a guessing game.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> It is a shame we don't do more sequencing to know what variant these infections are. I suspect they are primarily BA.5.


 .. not to disagree with you or pick a fight here but why would the government want to do that now when they got the public's (a large part of it now) buy-in (aka sucked in) that it's just "the cold". Too much money?

Almost forgot the mindset of some here with the "nobody cares".



> Someone needs to sequence or we will not know how long either natural or immunized protection lasts. We currently go out of our way to not determine who has natural immunity and who has it from immunization. It would be easy to test but it has become clear we are going out of our way to not determine how much immunization is helping. They aren't doing it in UK either, so it will remain a guessing game.


 ... same response as above. Plus we know that vaccination wanes over time. Plus it's just the "cold" as known by the many some.

See this lady's reinfection with Covid (aka Covid's reprisals)

A viral reprise: When COVID-19 strikes again and again):

Imagine - getting Covid over and over and over and over and over and over and over ... again, again, and again. Especially for a working person. And now imagine the sssssprrreaadddd - among her listeners, her co-workers should she showed up for work - sick (yeah, it's just the cold/flu!) whether she's fed up or she has to since it's her living. YEEEEEECH!!!!

By her example, it does appear the Covid vax will go the way of the annual-flu shots if one doesn't want to die. Logical thing is to mix the 2 vax together, obviously tweaked and updated.


----------



## Spudd

TomB16 said:


> The UK continues to encourage vaccines and boosters for students so they must believe immunity can be improved with vaccine, even after an infection. If they have data showing this, they are not sharing it.
> 
> In fact, they have gone out of their way to not collect data on natural immunity versus vaccination, as all governments have. Zoe data did some work on it but were then defunded by ONS.
> 
> At some point, we are going to need a private organization to study natural immune response compared to vaccinated response or governments are going to spend billions on vaccines forever. We might learn that we need vaccines forever but objective data would still be preferable to not knowing.


It bothers me when people say things like "nobody has published such and such thing" when a quick google search easily turns up published such things. 

The following is a metanalysis of several studies on vaccination and natural immunity. Here's a key sentence from the abstract:
All of the included studies found at least statistical equivalence between the protection of full vaccination and natural immunity; and, three studies found superiority of natural immunity. Four observational studies found a statistically significant incremental benefit to vaccination in the COVID-recovered individuals. 








Equivalency of Protection From Natural Immunity in COVID-19 Recovered Versus Fully Vaccinated Persons: A Systematic Review and Pooled Analysis


We present a systematic review and pooled analysis of clinical studies to date that (1) specifically compare the protection of natural immunity in the COVID-recovered versus the efficacy of complete vaccination in the COVID-naive, and (2) the added benefit of vaccination in the COVID-recovered...




www.cureus.com





Here's another:
Protection from reinfection decreases with time since previous infection, but is, nevertheless, higher than that conferred by vaccination with two doses at a similar time since the last immunity-conferring event. A single vaccine dose after infection helps to restore protection. 








Protection and waning of natural and hybrid COVID-19 immunity


BACKGROUND Infection with SARS-CoV-2 provides substantial natural immunity against reinfection. Recent studies have shown strong waning of the immunity provided by the BNT162b2 vaccine. The time course of natural and hybrid immunity is unknown. METHODS Data on confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infections...




www.medrxiv.org





And another:
Administering a COVID-19 vaccine not designed for the Omicron variant, 6 months or more after prior infection or vaccination, protects against Omicron variant infection in both previously infected and previously vaccinated individuals. There is no evidence of an advantage to administering more than 1 dose of vaccine to previously infected persons.








Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) Vaccine Boosting in Persons Already Protected by Natural or Vaccine-Induced Immunity


Background The purpose of this study was to evaluate whether boosting healthcare personnel, already reasonably protected by prior infection or vaccination, with a vaccine developed for an earlier variant of COVID-19 protects against the Omicron variant. Methods Employees of Cleveland Clinic who...




www.medrxiv.org


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> It is a shame we don't do more sequencing to know what variant these infections are. I suspect they are primarily BA.5.


Yeah, well we threw away testing when got rid of PCR testing for the general public. If we still allowed the public to get PCR testing, we'd be have more samples to do sequencing from.


----------



## james4beach

Quebec has 1260 people in hospital with COVID and rising. There are also more hospital workers out sick due to COVID. The pressure on the healthcare system is growing.

It's believed to be the more contagious strains that are prevalent in Europe (brought over by people like my friend, who tested positive after flying back Spain)

This is June, one of the warmest and nicest months of the year. What do you guys think is going to happen in winter?


----------



## zinfit

The stupidity and waste from the Federal Government. Went to the USA for a three day trip by motor vehicle. We had to do the silly ArriveCan thing for our return. I asked the border agent about what this accomplished . He just smiled. We were home 5 days and my spouse was selected for a random test. We got her kit yesterday and went through a 1 and 1/2 hour process to complete the test on line test. We even had to physically wipe down the return Purolater package for the return of the sample. Interesting the CDC says wipes were pretty useless for preventing covid. If a Canadian at home thought they might have covid have no access to public testing. They can do a rapid test at home and if they test positive they should stay at home for 5 days. I know we have a lot of Liberal fanboys here but can anyone explain this useless border AriiveCan process and random testing? I suspect that Switch Canada has a sweetheart contract with their Liberal buddies and are simply honouring their rich contract. Reagan said the closest thing to permanence was a new government policy. How long before we get rid of this stupidity?


----------



## sags

I think the restrictions now are directed more towards trying to maintain a workforce that isn't off with covid every couple of weeks.

At my wife's employer some employees have been off work numerous times for covid or suspected covid. Their workforce is worn out and need a break.

Hospitals are reporting sickness in staff again, so likely they have been infected numerous times. That workforce is also covid weary.

It appears that covid is going round and round and round.........and the economy is suffering because of it because of worker shortages.

The government is trying to break the repetitive cycle, but it appears they are failing in that effort.

Unless we get a long lasting vaccine, we are likely hooped until covid finally fades away.


----------



## james4beach

Canada's vaccine advisory body says boosters are recommended for the fall.

Makes perfect sense before entering winter. They're suggesting it for anyone over 65 and at-risk groups.



zinfit said:


> If a Canadian at home thought they might have covid have no access to public testing. They can do a rapid test at home and if they test positive they should stay at home for 5 days. I know we have a lot of Liberal fanboys here but can anyone explain this useless border AriiveCan process and random testing? I suspect that Switch Canada has a sweetheart contract with their Liberal buddies


I have been critical of ArriveCan from day one and have frequently posted here (as recently as a couple hours ago) about how it's unfair to many people who don't carry around smart phones and computers all the time. It might be an option, but there absolutely has to also be the option to do some alternative in-person declaration.

I also think we need publicly available PCR testing. This testing at home stuff is really dumb. We need proper PCR testing facilities where the general public (including your spouse) could get the tests.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Quebec has 1260 people in hospital with COVID and rising. There are also more hospital workers out sick due to COVID. The pressure on the healthcare system is growing.
> 
> It's believed to be the more contagious strains that are prevalent in Europe (brought over by people like my friend, who tested positive after flying back Spain)
> 
> This is June, one of the warmest and nicest months of the year. What do you guys think is going to happen in winter?


In Ontario we're still falling



james4beach said:


> Canada's vaccine advisory body says boosters are recommended for the fall.
> 
> Makes perfect sense before entering winter. They're suggesting it for anyone over 65 and at-risk groups.
> 
> I have been critical of ArriveCan from day one and have frequently posted here (as recently as a couple hours ago) about how it's unfair to many people who don't carry around smart phones and computers all the time. It might be an option, but there absolutely has to also be the option to do some alternative in-person declaration.
> 
> I also think we need publicly available PCR testing. This testing at home stuff is really dumb. We need proper PCR testing facilities where the general public (including your spouse) could get the tests.


The same guys who never closed the border have an App to keep us safe crossing the border.
You realize the border guards are tasked with enforcing stupid policies right? They have no power to fix anything.

I've had my 3 shots, I'm not convinced that a 4th covid shot makes sense.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Canada's vaccine advisory body says boosters are recommended for the fall.
> 
> Makes perfect sense before entering winter. They're suggesting it for anyone over 65 and at-risk groups.
> 
> 
> 
> I have been critical of ArriveCan from day one and have frequently posted here (as recently as a couple hours ago) about how it's unfair to many people who don't carry around smart phones and computers all the time. It might be an option, but there absolutely has to also be the option to do some alternative in-person declaration.
> 
> *I also think we need publicly available PCR testing. This testing at home stuff is really dumb. We need proper PCR testing facilities where the general public (including your spouse) could get the tests.*


 ... don't think that PCR testing is going to ramp up even the numbers go up. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised PCR testing(s) will be done only for either the sickest, those admitted/working directly in the hospitals, and/or possibly the "option" to pay for it yourself through a lab if you desperate need to test. I.e. getting scarce.

That's why we have those dumb "free-paid-by-taxpayers-like-you-and-me (Ontario)" RATs. And I woudn't be surprised soon those RATs give-aways will be eliminated. Afterall, the majority of the population (including many a whole lot here) thinks Covid is juuussssttttt the "cold". No thanks, I say you keep it (colds et al) for those who don't mind getting them repeatedly.

Also, don't be surprised reporting of Covid will be either be obscured somewhere on the 'net or desisted from reporting since it's just the pffft....


----------



## zinfit

Some of the big hospital systems in the US have reported a big drop in earnings because of a major decline in covid hospitalizations[ CNBC] .One also indicated that hospitalizations from the flu now exceeds covid hospitalization. May-be we should be targeting the flu?


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> Also, don't be surprised reporting of Covid will be either be obscured somewhere on the 'net or desisted from reporting since it's just the pffft....


Canada already isn't reporting COVID cases basically, unless someone is a healthcare worker and tests positive. Otherwise there's basically no record of it happening.

I know a ton of people who've caught COVID in the last couple months and I don't think any of them have made it onto either a US or Cdn government stat. They are detections by rapid test.

Wastewater numbers are the only clue we have these days.


----------



## sags

Hospitalizations and deaths are trailing indicators.

When dealing with a highly contagious virus, when those numbers turn ugly.......it is already too late to do anything about it.


----------



## Beaver101

Here it comes again,

Ontario reports week-over-week uptick in COVID hospitalizations for first time since May

For those who think Covid is just the cold/flu, don't bother reading this news update. Instead, continue with your analysis and study of those data, graphs, medical experts from Youtube channels, and what-haves-you-prefer.


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> Hospitalizations and deaths are trailing indicators.
> 
> When dealing with a highly contagious virus, when those numbers turn ugly.......it is already too late to do anything about it.


Alberta is showing 13 patients in ICUs. During previous periods the ICUs were close to 400 . During a normal flu season it can 150-200 with the flu.


----------



## TomB16

Zoe Data reports the UK has a huge surge in COVID cases with near certainty for record infections by next week. Hospitalizations are up a bit. COVID related deaths are very, very low.

BA.5 has immune escape so it is currently dominating due to natural selection.


----------



## Beaver101

Canada's hospital emergency rooms understaffed, facing tsunami of patients

Oh Dougie, this healthcare problem ain't going away. Better get your new health minister to work now that we know who it is.


----------



## sags

It is a bad situation for sure.

Our son got an MRI and the doctor told him the disc in his back is almost completely out. 

She put him on the "emergency surgery" list and says it might be 6 months wait.

Bring surgeons and specialists in from China on a loan basis. Set up operating rooms somewhere. Get it done Doug !


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> It is a bad situation for sure.
> 
> Our son got an MRI and the doctor told him the disc in his back is almost completely out.
> 
> She put him on the "emergency surgery" list and says it might be 6 months wait.
> 
> Bring surgeons and specialists in from China on a loan basis. Set up operating rooms somewhere. Get it done Doug !


It is the public healthcare system. Everyone is treated equally but you must accept rationing and long wait times.


----------



## Beaver101

Analysis | Omicron deadlier for Ontario seniors than previous two waves combined

Above article is behind a paywall but below is its entirety. 

Applicable to Ontarians only. And I wonder what the CPO or fake CMO is doing these days? Guess working extreeemmmeeeely hard ... dozing somewhere.

_



By Kenyon Wallace, Megan Ogilvie, May Warren, Toronto Star, Sun., July 3, 2022

Even as Ontario began reopening its economy and returning to some semblance of normalcy this year, COVID-19 was wreaking havoc on the lives of older residents — killing them at higher rates than the past two waves, new data shows.

Analysis of death figures by researchers at the University of Toronto provided to the Star shows that since mid-December 2021, Omicron has been more deadly for Ontarians age 60 and over than the previous two waves combined.

And while Omicron may present milder symptoms than previous variants at an individual level, the sheer number of COVID deaths among Ontario seniors since Omicron became dominant — more than 3,700 — challenges the narrative that the worst of the pandemic was over as social gatherings got bigger and capacity limits in restaurants, bars and gyms were lifted. 

“When enough people get infected … we get a large number of people who get hospitalized, and who might die,” says Dr. Sharmistha Mishra, an infectious disease physician and mathematical modeller at Toronto’s St. Michael’s Hospital. “And that’s what we’re seeing.

“The pathogen — the bug itself — doesn’t have to be very severe to cause havoc at a community or population level.”

Mishra, whose team at Unity Health Toronto conducted the analysis for the Star, called the findings “stark.” They show that in Wave 5, after Omicron emerged as the dominant variant in the province last winter, the peak in the rate of deaths in those 60 and older was 12 times higher than in the Delta wave last summer. And it was two times higher than the peak in the Alpha wave in spring 2021.
Even during Ontario’s most recent Omicron wave which began in late March — just as the province began to lift mask mandates — the peak death rate was three times higher than that of last summer’s Delta wave.

In early April, the province saw an estimated 100,000 new COVID infections per day, the highest number of daily cases since the beginning of the pandemic, increasing the odds that more individuals would have severe outcomes — and die — as the pool of infected people grew.
Per-capita Omicron deaths in Ontarians age 60 and older began to climb steeply in mid-December, peaking in mid-January before declining until about the end of February. They began to climb again in late March before reaching a second, smaller peak at the beginning of May, before declining into June. Another 1,348 people 60 and older died during that time period alone.

This means that since mid-December, Omicron has been responsible for 3,771 deaths in people 60 and older — about 1,400 more deaths than were recorded during the Alpha and Delta waves combined. Most were among those who were not fully vaccinated, meaning they had fewer than two vaccinations.

“I understand that at this point in the pandemic, people are very tired of hearing about COVID-19 and want to move on, but the sad reality is that COVID-19, including the Omicron variant, has caused a lot of deaths here in Ontario,” says Dr. Amit Arya, palliative care lead at Kensington Health in Toronto.
“The average 85-year-old has about seven years of life left, as an example. Many of the people who suffered and died from an impact of Omicron were not people who were otherwise imminently dying and at the end of life.”


One of those vulnerable seniors was Jim Mann. As the province dropped mask mandates on March 21, Mann, a devoted husband, father and Maple Leafs fan, lay in a hospital bed in St. Catharines, fighting the disease it seemed no one wanted to talk about anymore.

Mann, 67, a retired windows and doors salesman, had suffered from emphysema for years, but finally got the call he’d been waiting for: he received a pair of precious new lungs in the fall of last year.

He and his wife, Lori Mann, were finally looking forward to celebrating their 28th wedding anniversary at the Keg, visiting family out west and maybe even taking a vacation to Australia. They wanted to get back to a more normal life, free from the “leash,” as Jim used to call it, of an oxygen tank for the first time in a decade.

It had been just the two of them for most of the past nearly two years as the pandemic raged. They’d take long drives to get out of the apartment, wearing masks and cleaning their hands religiously with Purell. They skipped time with their kids and grandkids on holidays to be safe. Both Lori and Jim were triple-vaccinated.

In February 2022, Jim was due to get a fourth shot, but had to cancel for a non-COVID medical reason.

Jim was admitted to their local St. Catharines hospital after falling sick in mid-March and testing positive for COVID. It still drives Lori crazy, not knowing where he got it.

He was in and out of the ICU for the next five weeks. Lori wasn’t allowed to visit but they would talk every day by phone or, when he was too sick to speak, by text.
Finally, she was allowed to see him in mid-April, but it wasn’t looking good. That night she got a phone call at around 4:30 a.m.

“As soon as I saw that it was the hospital, I knew,” she said through tears during a recent interview.
“They said everything was failing.”

Lori called Jim’s daughter to join her at his bedside. He was on medication for COVID but nothing was working. After his lung transplant, Jim was put on drugs that suppressed his immune system, which made him more susceptible to the virus.

On her phone, Jim’s daughter played Jim and Lori’s wedding song, the ’90s country ballad “I Swear” by John Michael Montgomery, on the pillow beside him.

“Right at the end of that song he took his last breath,” Lori remembers.
“So that was it.”


Ontario death notices published during the first half of 2022 offer a glimpse into the many other lives lost to Omicron, each a reminder that — to older adults and other vulnerable people — the virus remains deadly.

Toronto resident Arthur Lowrie died in hospital in April at age 85 due to complications from COVID. Described in his obituary as “social, chatty, charismatic and handsome,” Lowrie, who lived in the city for more than 40 years, “appreciated good food, especially chocolate, and good friends, of which he had many.”

A few weeks later, on May 15, at the age of 75, Rosanna Biscaro died following a three-month stay at a Mississauga hospital after being exposed to COVID in mid-February.

Biscaro, who was married for 55 years and the mother of two, was known for her love of gardening and baking, especially her cream cheese brownies, according to her obituary.

“She had a great fear of COVID,” and though she had “persevered through many health struggles over the years, with her intense will to live and enjoy life,” the damage from COVID “proved to be too much for her to overcome,” her family wrote.

That same week in May, Robert “Bob” Tisdale of London, Ont., died in hospital from COVID complications. He was 85. The father of two, with four grandchildren and five great-grandchildren, was a former high school teacher, active in his community, including the Rotary Club and local theatre, and drove a transport truck across North America hauling industrial goods during his retirement years, his obituary said.

“He loved life, his family, nature, his dog Riley, learning new things and was fiercely independent,” his family wrote.

The fact that seniors are the ones most likely to experience severe illness and death if they contract Omicron underscores the importance of getting fully vaccinated and boosted, said Dr. Samir Sinha, director of geriatrics at Sinai Health and University Health Network.
“Vaccination has been a gift but it’s only a gift if people keep up to date with their vaccinations,” said Sinha, noting that as of early May, only six provinces had given third doses to more than 80 per cent of their older adults.

“I’ve seen a lot more of my older patients, after being vigilant for two years, now being told all these messages that the pandemic is almost over, and then all of a sudden they’re getting COVID,” he added. “I’m not surprised that we’re seeing again the majority of the deaths that are occurring are amongst older people, because we know that they’ve always been the most vulnerable.”

In an email to the Star, the Health Ministry said it began a “live-agent” outreach campaign on June 13 to increase booster uptake among Ontarians age 70 to 79. It also began an email campaign in mid-June to encourage first boosters for those 50 to 69 and second boosters for those 60 and older.
The province said it could not provide the number of individuals who were vaccinated in these programs as outreach is still ongoing.

A similar program began in April for those 80 and older. The ministry said about 3,500 people 80 and older received their booster after being contacted by an agent.

“The ministry continues to work with public health units to ensure equity in our vaccine rollout and that each public health unit’s approach is tailored to local needs and context,” wrote spokesperson W.D. Lighthall.

Lori Mann wants people to know that others, like Jim, are still dying and urges them to “just be vigilant, and if they’re sick please stay home.”

She also wants people to remember her husband as more than just a statistic, to know that he was funny and fiercely loyal, whether that was to his kids and grandkids, his great-nephew, with whom he had a special bond, or the Leafs.

“ ‘No matter what, you stick by your team, no matter what they’re doing, they’re your team,’ ” he used to tell Lori.

“It’s still hard when my phone rings. I just think it’s going to be him,” she said, adding it still doesn’t seem real to be without Jim.

“We just never ever saw this coming. We had plans.”

Click to expand...

_


----------



## latebuyer

I just don't understand why the BC government won't let people under 70 get boosted if they have vaccines available. My concern is that they will be behind in the fall and not get people boosted until after numbers are already rising. It seems to me they should be proactive. My friend says its because they want the vaccine for people who haven't got their first booster but is there really a rush of people wanting to get their first booster? I told my friend who is 65 to check if she can get it. Sorry if this is a duplicate. Long thread!


----------



## damian13ster

There is still research going on whether boosters help or weaken the immune system.
Until that question is resolved, taking too many boosters is unwise









Why a 4th COVID-19 Shot Likely Won’t Provide More Protection


Regulators in Europe say getting too many COVID-19 booster shots may actually weaken your immune response. Scientists in Israel also reported that a fourth vaccine dose doesn't appear to produce enough antibodies to protect against an Omicron variant infection.




www.healthline.com









__





EMA regular press briefing on COVID-19 - European Medicines Agency


EMA regular press briefing on COVID-19




www.ema.europa.eu


----------



## sags

_Studies have shown the COVID-19 boosters begin to lose some effectiveness four months after being administered, leading to growing calls for Ontario to widen eligibility for a second booster, equivalent to a fourth dose of vaccine.
"We know that the protection provided by those vaccines has been effective in reducing serious illness and death, but it's waning," said Dr. Nili Kaplan-Myrth, a family physician in Ottawa._



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-ontario-vaccine-4th-dose-booster-1.6506746


----------



## james4beach

latebuyer said:


> I just don't understand why the BC government won't let people under 70 get boosted if they have vaccines available. My concern is that they will be behind in the fall and not get people boosted until after numbers are already rising. It seems to me they should be proactive.


This may open up to more people. Just recently (last week I think) the national advisory council recommended boosters in the fall, before entering cold & flu season.

With this new guidance it's possible that BC may open up more boosting in fall.

Or, I may have misunderstood what you wrote. People under age 70 *are* able to get their boosters (third shots) any time they want. I'm much younger and was eligible for my third shot. Or are you asking about eligibility for a fourth shot?

Having 3 shots (2 primary series + 1 boost) is believed to give people long-lasting protection against serious illness and death. So if you've already had a total of 3 shots, I would think you're in great shape at this point.


----------



## TomB16

It looks like BA.5 can infect multiple times.

I've been careful to look for sequencing data to show that a person who has been infected by a specific variant is reinfected with the same variant. We saw a very small amount of this with BA.2.* I haven't seen this data for BA.5 but empirical evidence is looking this way.

Vaccines continue to protect against serious disease, but not infection. Previous vaccine efficacy data shows they provide protection for about 20 weeks. I presume this continues to be the case with new variants. I also presume previous infections protect against serious disease, also.


----------



## andrewf

Does it matter? It's not like COVID is going to stop spawning new variants.


----------



## damian13ster

Canada threw away 14.8mln vaccines


----------



## HappilyRetired

damian13ster said:


> Canada threw away 14.8mln vaccines


That's what happens when an idiot is in charge.


----------



## Money172375

HappilyRetired said:


> That's what happens when an idiot is in charge.


It’s lack of demand of the AZ product as a result of some early side effects. Not sure how they can be blamed given what they knew at the time.


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> Does it matter? It's not like COVID is going to stop spawning new variants.


It matters to me. A lot.

I believe I have reasonably strong immunity to everything short of BA.4/BA.5. We are going on a three week cruise in the fall that will undoubtedly expose me to BA.4/BA.5. If I become symptomatic, I could end up paying $375USD/day plus meals plus whatever else they decide to charge us to stay in a quarantine hotel on the other side of the world. That stay will be a minimum of 5 days, possibly up to 10. From there, I will have to either fly to catch up to the cruise, fly home, or fly somewhere else to continue the vacation. That's a big hit.

I'm trying to thread a needle and it may turn out that we abandon the cruise idea. It's starting to seem like a questionable proposition.


----------



## TomB16

Money172375 said:


> It’s lack of demand of the AZ product as a result of some early side effects. Not sure how they can be blamed given what they knew at the time.


For sure.

Also, it might be similar to Sinovac in that it is less effective than mRNA vaccines in single and double doses but more effective than mRNA vaccines after three doses. We will never know.


----------



## damian13ster

T


Money172375 said:


> It’s lack of demand of the AZ product as a result of some early side effects. Not sure how they can be blamed given what they knew at the time.


 They also threw out millions of Moderna. But guess that's also because of nasty side effects. And yes, we can blame them, because they ordered 400% more than necessary and more than any other country in the world (and despite ordering more than anyone else still managed to be one of last developed countries to receive it)


----------



## Beaver101

^ No thanks to you I guess. 

Does it make you happier to know that those throw-aways (not just AZ but also expired Moderna & Pfizers) were bought by mines and "yours" tax dollars (provided you do file).


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> That's what happens when an idiot is in charge.


Nope, they weren't sure what vaccines would work or be approved, or how much supply they'd actually get.
So Canada did the right thing and attempted to secure multiple suppliers with more than enough. Which is exactly the right thing to do.
Remember, some of the vaccine suppliers never actually produced an approved vaccine, and we had vaccine shortages for months.

He's an idiot for a lot of things, But ordering a few million extra doses wasn't one of them.



damian13ster said:


> They also threw out millions of Moderna. But guess that's also because of nasty side effects. And yes, we can blame them, because they ordered 400% more than necessary and more than any other country in the world (and despite ordering more than anyone else still managed to be one of last developed countries to receive it)


400% more than necessary?

You claimed they threw out <15M doses.

If everyone had both doses, let alone a third dose we'd still be short. Just let that sink in, we never obtained enough vaccine to fully vaccinate the entire population. So how can you say 400% more than necessary?

If anything, throwing out 15M doses could easily be blamed on the people not getting all the recommended vaccinations.
I'd rather throw out the doses allocated to people who opted not to get vaccinated than to not have a dose available for people to want it.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Nope, they weren't sure what vaccines would work or be approved, or how much supply they'd actually get.
> So Canada did the right thing and attempted to secure multiple suppliers with more than enough. Which is exactly the right thing to do.
> Remember, some of the vaccine suppliers never actually produced an approved vaccine, and we had vaccine shortages for months.
> 
> He's an idiot for a lot of things, But ordering a few million extra doses wasn't one of them.
> 
> 
> 400% more than necessary?
> 
> You claimed they threw out <15M doses.
> 
> If everyone had both doses, let alone a third dose we'd still be short. Just let that sink in, we never obtained enough vaccine to fully vaccinate the entire population. So how can you say 400% more than necessary?
> 
> If anything, throwing out 15M doses could easily be blamed on the people not getting all the recommended vaccinations.
> I'd rather throw out the doses allocated to people who opted not to get vaccinated than to not have a dose available for people to want it.


No, this is what they threw out SO FAR. They didn't throw away everything that expired. Also, not everything they ordered came in yet, there are still deliveries under contract.

And the two options that you listed aren't only ones. Canada ordered more doses per person than any other country in the world. Yet you don't hear about shortages anywhere - so clearly those who ordered less and chose not to light money on fire and provide gifts to pharmaceutical industry made much smarter choices.

On top of that, countries that ordered significantly less, didn't set money on fire, still ended up getting deliveries before Canada did


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> No, this is what they threw out SO FAR. They didn't throw away everything that expired. Also, not everything they ordered came in yet, there are still deliveries under contract.
> 
> And the two options that you listed aren't only ones. Canada ordered more doses per person than any other country in the world. *Yet you don't hear about shortages anywhere* - so clearly those who ordered less and chose not to light money on fire and provide gifts to pharmaceutical industry made much smarter choices.
> 
> On top of that, countries that ordered significantly less, didn't set money on fire, still ended up getting deliveries before Canada did


Really?
You didn't hear about any shortages of vaccine? You don't recall them extending the intervals past the recommendations because of the limited vaccine supply?

Yes we got late deliveries because Trudeau messed up many other aspects of the vaccine procurement. 
But ordering a few million doses more than we ended up using wasn't IMO a failure, or even a mistake.

I really, really don't like Trudeau, the only reason I don't think he's actively trying to destroy the country is because he's been pretty much a failure at everything he's ever done (beyond political survival). 

But ordering more doses than we needed was not a failure. I see that as a success, or at least a makeup for his actual procurement failures
nor was his daily briefing, where he stuck to pretty much 1 major point per day, to keep the messaging simple. At the time I even commented how I thought that was a good strategy.
Thirdly I also commented that it was good he was hiding out in his cottage rather than managing things, because like even many Liberal supporters say, things are better when Trudeau isn't around.

What is it with political arguments, of all the real issues and problems, people pick on these non issues.


----------



## sags

_What is it with political arguments, of all the real issues and problems, people pick on these non issues. _

What is with the singular CPC "anti-Trudeau" everything campaign instead of actual policies that people care about ?

All of the imagined complaints and skullduggery laid at Trudeau's feet were presented as "issues" during the past 2 elections which Trudeau easily won.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> _What is it with political arguments, of all the real issues and problems, people pick on these non issues. _
> 
> What is with the singular CPC "anti-Trudeau" everything campaign instead of actual policies that people care about ?
> 
> All of the imagined complaints and skullduggery laid at Trudeau's feet were presented as "issues" during the past 2 elections which Trudeau easily won.


 ... it's called deflection or tactical targeting to hide "incompetency". I see all the time with my (ex) bosses, only worst, pick the lowest hanging fruit(s) to "blame".


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Really?
> You didn't hear about any shortages of vaccine? You don't recall them extending the intervals past the recommendations because of the limited vaccine supply?
> 
> Yes we got late deliveries because Trudeau messed up many other aspects of the vaccine procurement.
> But ordering a few million doses more than we ended up using wasn't IMO a failure, or even a mistake.
> 
> I really, really don't like Trudeau, the only reason I don't think he's actively trying to destroy the country is because he's been pretty much a failure at everything he's ever done (beyond political survival).
> 
> But ordering more doses than we needed was not a failure. I see that as a success, or at least a makeup for his actual procurement failures
> nor was his daily briefing, where he stuck to pretty much 1 major point per day, to keep the messaging simple. At the time I even commented how I thought that was a good strategy.
> Thirdly I also commented that it was good he was hiding out in his cottage rather than managing things, because like even many Liberal supporters say, things are better when Trudeau isn't around.
> 
> What is it with political arguments, of all the real issues and problems, people pick on these non issues.


'Don't' - not 'Didn't'

There is a difference between those two words. And yes, I DON'T hear of any shortages.
Despite Canada being only country that paid for 12 doses/person.

It isn't 'few doses' more. You are talking 400mln. That's a lot of money lit on fire.
With country dealing with crippling deficits and record-breaking debts, throwing money away is not good.

It is absolutely crazy that despite ordering 400mln doses (12 per person, and at least 300mln too many) Canada was still pretty much at the end of the line in having them delivered. That's mind-boggling. 

But hey, budget will balance itself so nothing wrong with lighting money on fire


----------



## Beaver101

^


> _It is absolutely crazy that despite ordering 400mln doses (12 per person, and at least 300mln too many) Canada was still pretty much at the end of the line in having them delivered. That's mind-boggling. _


 ... no it's not when you have the "me, myself, and I" mentality. 

Maybe not you as far as the vax goes, just look at gibor36 (banned).


----------



## Spudd

TomB16 said:


> I believe I have reasonably strong immunity to everything short of BA.4/BA.5. We are going on a three week cruise in the fall that will undoubtedly expose me to BA.4/BA.5. If I become symptomatic, I could end up paying $375USD/day plus meals plus whatever else they decide to charge us to stay in a quarantine hotel on the other side of the world. That stay will be a minimum of 5 days, possibly up to 10. From there, I will have to either fly to catch up to the cruise, fly home, or fly somewhere else to continue the vacation. That's a big hit.
> 
> I'm trying to thread a needle and it may turn out that we abandon the cruise idea. It's starting to seem like a questionable proposition.


Buy insurance? Insurance exists that covers the need to quarantine due to covid.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Canada threw away 14.8mln vaccines





damian13ster said:


> Despite Canada being only country that paid for 12 doses/person.
> 
> It isn't 'few doses' more. You are talking 400mln. That's a lot of money lit on fire.





damian13ster said:


> And yes, we can blame them, because they ordered 400% more than necessary and more than any other country in the world (and despite ordering more than anyone else still managed to be one of last developed countries to receive it)


Is it 400M or 14.8M or 400% more than necessary can you pick an number and support it? 

I'm okay with throwing out 15M doses, considering that we would have needed to use those (and more) to vaccinate people who are STILL not vaccinated.
Again, I'd rather have the vaccine and being arguing with people to take it, than having shortages.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Is it 400M or 14.8M or 400% more than necessary can you pick an number and support it?
> 
> I'm okay with throwing out 15M doses, considering that we would have needed to use those (and more) to vaccinate people who are STILL not vaccinated.
> Again, I'd rather have the vaccine and being arguing with people to take it, than having shortages.


Both
400mln were ordered. 86mln were given to Canadians up to July 2022 (So exact number is 365% more than necessary)

What happened with 314mln that were paid for and not used by Canadians? 

So far we know that 14.8mln at least was thrown out between AZ and Moderna. We don't have number of others as there is no transparency, and even this number you can't find on government websites as they don't exactly advertise their own stupidity.

15.8mln were sent to other countries.

What happened with extra 274mln that didn't go in arms of Canadians (400 - 86mln applied - 15mln thrown out - 15mln sent out)? - great question.
We don't know. There is no transparency. Some of it probably wasn't delivered yet, some of it was probably thrown out, we simply weren't informed about it yet.


----------



## damian13ster

World hunger crisis: 2.3B people severely or moderately hungry in 2021, UN says - National | Globalnews.ca


The report also stated that the number of people unable to afford a healthy diet globally reflects the impacts of rising consumer food prices during the COVID-19 pandemic.




globalnews.ca


----------



## Beaver101

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-covid-19-ba5-wave-1.6512283

Top doc to Ontarians:


> _"Sadly yes, we're in another wave," Dr. Kieran Moore, the province's chief medical officer, told CBC News Wednesday after Ontario's COVID-19 science advisory table pointed to exponential growth in most public health units. _


Ontarians to top (supposedly) doc:


> " _YAWN!!!! _"


----------



## james4beach

Ontario is the leading indicator of what's going to happen across the country.

Hospitals in Ontario are having trouble operating. Many staff are out sick, because COVID is incredibly widespread through society. Everyone is catching it. The combination of staff out sick + burnout (many have quit) leaves the hospitals under-staffed.

The hospital reps on CBC Newsworld are saying that if COVID patients start flooding in, *the hospitals will not be able to handle it*.

This is the trouble we've gotten ourselves into by telling the public everything is OK, go have fun, don't worry about COVID. We are setting ourselves up for new restrictions in the fall and winter ... either mandatory masks or something else will be needed. Otherwise the hospitals won't be able to function.

The pandemic isn't over. At the very least, we need mandatory masks in public to send the message that people need to be careful.


----------



## TomB16

With BA.5 ramping in China, Xian is now locked down and Shanghai will probably also be locked down shortly.

And yet, we are doing SFA with regard to re-shoring or second sourcing anything, from what I can tell. There is talk of bringing IC manufacturing to the US but I'm not aware of any projects actually starting.

Hopefully, something will come of the talk of American projects but it would be essentially as good if they could diversify elsewhere in Asia.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Ontario is the leading indicator of what's going to happen across the country.
> 
> Hospitals in Ontario are having trouble operating. Many staff are out sick, because COVID is incredibly widespread through society. Everyone is catching it. The combination of staff out sick + burnout (many have quit) leaves the hospitals under-staffed.
> 
> The hospital reps on CBC Newsworld are saying that if COVID patients start flooding in, *the hospitals will not be able to handle it*.
> 
> This is the trouble we've gotten ourselves into by telling the public everything is OK, go have fun, don't worry about COVID. We are setting ourselves up for new restrictions in the fall and winter ... either mandatory masks or something else will be needed. Otherwise the hospitals won't be able to function.
> 
> The pandemic isn't over. At the very least, we need mandatory masks in public to send the message that people need to be careful.


My FIL went to emergency for what was nothing in the end. Anyway, he was there approx 8 hours. I asked if they tested him. He said no. Wouldn’t it be good practice to test everyone that‘s gonna be there for hours around sick people?


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> My FIL went to emergency for what was nothing in the end. Anyway, he was there approx 8 hours. I asked if they tested him. He said no. Wouldn’t it be good practice to test everyone that‘s gonna be there for hours around sick people?


 ... what tests are you referring to? Covid? Didn't you get the message (from the Ford government) that you're supposedly to pick up the RATs and DIY it at home PRIOR to going to the hospital. And was he wearing a mask? 8 hours in the ER is nothing these days ... some folks had to stay overnight ... in the hallway of course. [I think the upcoming "trend" for the "overnight" stay is you've bring your own bed/mat + food. I think the bathrooms there are still functioning. Oh, don't forget to bring your sanitizers. God knows what lurks everywhere there.] 

Meanwhile our CPO (aka fake CMO) is still on his drawing board with the "4th doze extension 'plan'". LMAOA.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Ontario is the leading indicator of what's going to happen across the country.
> 
> Hospitals in Ontario are having trouble operating. Many staff are out sick, because COVID is incredibly widespread through society. Everyone is catching it. The combination of staff out sick + burnout (many have quit) leaves the hospitals under-staffed.
> 
> The hospital reps on CBC Newsworld are saying that if COVID patients start flooding in, *the hospitals will not be able to handle it*.
> 
> This is the trouble we've gotten ourselves into by telling the public everything is OK, go have fun, don't worry about COVID. We are setting ourselves up for new restrictions in the fall and winter ... either mandatory masks or something else will be needed. Otherwise the hospitals won't be able to function.
> 
> The pandemic isn't over. At the very least, we need mandatory masks in public to send the message that people need to be careful.


 ... I say, just don't send us (or to Ontario) any sick patients, damn it!

Just look at these h-bs that can't wait to get Covidized:

'Pent up demand': Calgary Stampede returns with parade, spectators and no limits


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> My FIL went to emergency for what was nothing in the end. Anyway, he was there approx 8 hours. I asked if they tested him. He said no. Wouldn’t it be good practice to test everyone that‘s gonna be there for hours around sick people?


Yeah I think it would be smart to have those tests done.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Ontario is the leading indicator of what's going to happen across the country.
> 
> Hospitals in Ontario are having trouble operating. Many staff are out sick, because COVID is incredibly widespread through society. Everyone is catching it. The combination of staff out sick + burnout (many have quit) leaves the hospitals under-staffed.


At the same time some hospitals are still relaxing their masking requirements, while others are maintaining them.
This came up as some staff are annoyed that they have to mask up at one place, while their "home" hospital doesn't have those rules.

If the "experts" running the hospitals don't think their staff need to mask up, why are you advising against their informed expert opinions?


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> At the same time some hospitals are still relaxing their masking requirements, while others are maintaining them.
> This came up as some staff are annoyed that they have to mask up at one place, while their "home" hospital doesn't have those rules.
> 
> If the "experts" running the hospitals don't think their staff need to mask up, why are you advising against their informed expert opinions?


 ... well, then it's no thanks to those hospitals where the "experts" there tell their staff that they don't need to mask up or take the necessary sanitary and safety pre-cautions ...in treating, operating, etc. their patients. EEEEWWW and YEEEECCCCHHHH!!!!

And I won't get into their own personal hygiene habits as I can bet a big reminder sign taped to the bathroom door is necessary after the "woo woo woo tshes" ....


----------



## TomB16

With BA.5 raging and the Stampede incubator set on max, how bad do you think it's going to get?

I find it interesting that BA.5 is competing and dominating on it's immune escape. It doesn't seem to be more contagious than BA.2 but it will surely cause a significantly bigger wave. We are all going to get BA.5 at least once.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> If the "experts" running the hospitals don't think their staff need to mask up, why are you advising against their informed expert opinions?


Because it's smart to take the more conservative viewpoint, due to the potential severity of allowing hospitals to buckle under the load.

The protective measure (mask requirements) are a very minor inconvenience, and there's a big payoff for keeping the hospitals running normally.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ... well, then it's no thanks to those hospitals where the "experts" there tell their staff that they don't need to mask up or take the necessary sanitary and safety pre-cautions ...in treating, operating, etc. their patients. EEEEWWW and YEEEECCCCHHHH!!!!


So you think that relaxed mask restrictions mean that they won't wear a mask during surgery? Are you really that clueless or just a world class troll? I don't know how you avoid getting banned, you add nothing of value and spend all day insulting people and trolling.

You're on ignore but you really should be banned.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> So you think that relaxed mask restrictions mean that they won't wear a mask during surgery?


 ... LMAO. I gather you have never underwent surgical procedure or even remotely watched a show with a surgical procedure. Not only that you're beyond hope. Even the sedated patient has to have an oxygen mask over him/her.



> Are you really that clueless or just a world class troll? I don't know how you avoid getting banned, you add nothing of value and spend all day insulting people and trolling.


 ... talking about yourself here? Hey, I can't help it if you got the FIRST prize as the BIGGEST TROLL and BIGGEST LIAR here on CMF and a very good and real possibly in your every day life as a "HappilyRetired" Farce.



> You're on ignore but you really should be banned.


 ... wasn't I on your Ignore List already? And why not? On and off. Can't make up your mind or are you imploding there. Banning - says who? You? Then be a Moderator and ban whoever you see fit or don't agree with your blatant crybabying lies and outright accusations.

Btw, which bathroom does Mr. Caitlyn Jenner uses out in the public? I guess you can't answer that as you have no issues with transgendering fantasizings - your words. MAGA Mr. C. Jenner for "HappilyRetired". How come I feel like vomiting now?

PS: If Money felt "insulted" by my comment, he can address that himself. No need for you to opportunize yourself to troll me on his "behalf".

PPS: For the records, "HappilyRetired"'s contribution to this "financial" forum = 0 (zero, nil, zilch, nada, nothing). 

HappilyRetired's contribution with trolling in the General Discussions = '000s ...

Happy Now?!!!!


----------



## ian

I had my fourth shot this week. Spoke to the pharmacist. He has been surprised at how little the demand has been for the most six weeks. . They had boxes of test kits piled up for the taking.


----------



## Beaver101

ian said:


> I had my fourth shot this week. Spoke to the pharmacist. He has been surprised at how little the demand has been for the most six weeks. . They had boxes of test kits piled up for the taking.


 ... same here in Toronto, Ontario. RATS are piled for the taking over at SDM (one example) - as many as you want. Because the message from the "public health official" was "the pandemic is over" as misleading as it is with the lifting of everything "based on science" if you would believe it. 

Meanwhile the wastewater testing results show an upward trend of Covid redux and there's a possibility of a mask mandate return in the fall ... gasp, OMG! Like the public is gonna to pay attention now when the "message" has been the pandemic is over!!!! Like a previous post, any announcements coming out from public health is going to be met with a "YAWN" for many people when the majority of the "sheeples" have been told by public health, masks are not required, no mandates, no restrictions, etc. plus it's just the "cold". Laughable. 

Re your "4th" shot - has it been tweaked? To account for the Omicron BA.4/5? I'm hoping they do that soon or better yet, merge it with the annual "flu" shot so I'll take both at once.


----------



## ian

Beaver101 said:


> ... same here in Toronto, Ontario. RATS are piled for the taking over at SDM (one example) - as many as you want. Because the message from the "public health official" was "the pandemic is over" as misleading as it is with the lifting of everything "based on science" if you would believe it.
> 
> Meanwhile the wastewater testing results show an upward trend of Covid redux and there's a possibility of a mask mandate return in the fall ... gasp, OMG! Like the public is gonna to pay attention now when the "message" has been the pandemic is over!!!! Like a previous post, any announcements coming out from public health is going to be met with a "YAWN" for many people when the majority of the "sheeples" have been told by public health, masks are not required, no mandates, no restrictions, etc. plus it's just the "cold". Laughable.
> 
> Re your "4th" shot - has it been tweaked? To account for the Omicron BA.4/5? I'm hoping they do that soon or better yet, merge it with the annual "flu" shot so I'll take both at once.


No idea. But...we always get flu shots. If the current trend continues we expect that there will be some covid restrictions by the fall.


----------



## james4beach

latebuyer said:


> I just don't understand why the BC government won't let people under 70 get boosted if they have vaccines available


BC is now encouraging everyone over 12 to get a booster in the fall. I think the advice is sound and it's what I was thinking anyway... I want to get my next shot in the fall.

I think the big question is whether the vaccine will be the same one, or will be upgraded to a bivalent vaccine. That timing seems tricky to me, since we don't know when the bivalent one will be ready to deploy. The original mRNA vaccines are still useful but the bivalent one will likely be more effective.

On the other hand, I certainly wouldn't want to wait until November to get such a shot.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-covid-19-immunization-plan-update-july-2022-1.6514912


----------



## londoncalling

With the uptake on a 4th booster so low it would be foolish for government not to promote it to other ages. I debated getting the third (first booster) shot and have yet to make a decision on #4. With so much competing data it really is difficult to make an informed decision. Efficacy wains with time but to what extent.


----------



## ian

The pharmacist who gave me the 4th shot told me that Alberta Health Services have advised pharmacies to expect a significant uptake in covid shots by mid Sept/Oct. based on upon their waste water tests for covid. Some pharmacies are no longer doing the shots because volume is low.


----------



## james4beach

I suspect that many people are doing what I'm doing, and waiting for the end of summer (or the fall) to get another shot.

My logic is that the benefit of the vaccine wanes after about 3-4 months. I'm eligible already, but if I were to get a shot today, the antibodies would wear off and leave me exposed again by November... right in the middle of cold & flu season!

So I don't see the point of getting a shot today. Instead, if you get the shot in Sept or Oct, you get maximum protection through to about February which is exactly what you want.

But please - someone correct me if I'm using faulty logic here.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I suspect that many people are doing what I'm doing, and waiting for the end of summer (or the fall) to get another shot.
> 
> My logic is that the benefit of the vaccine wanes after about 3-4 months. I'm eligible already, but if I were to get a shot today, the antibodies would wear off and leave me exposed again by November... right in the middle of cold & flu season!
> 
> So I don't see the point of getting a shot today. Instead, if you get the shot in Sept or Oct, you get maximum protection through to about February which is exactly what you want.
> 
> But please - someone correct me if I'm using faulty logic here.


I don’t think you should concern yourself with traditional flu/cold season when deciding what to do. You’ll be exposed to cold and flu season regardless if you get your vaccine now or in the fall. The vaccines don’t protect against traditional colds and flu. im sure COVID will get worse in the winter, but we’re in the middle of a wave now. The advice by all medical experts I’ve seen is to get your shot now. But you’re “younger” so maybe you can take a chance waiting for a newer version. 

COVID finally hit our house. I’m on day 4 of symptoms. Almost over. I expect to be back to normal tomorrow or Tuesday. My wife is on day 10 of symptoms. Mine wasn’t severe at all. No fever, no cough. Just stuffy nose and sinus congestion. Thank you pseudoephedrine!

I’m waiting for vaccines that target the newer variants. Or a joint flu/COVID vaccine. And even then i’m not 100% on what I’ll do.

if the rise in BA4/BA5 goes as predicted, I suspect almost everyone will get it before fall. Didn’t they say the previous omicron infected 50% of the population since Xmas?


----------



## damian13ster

What's the effectiveness of old vaccines against BA4/BA5?
Is there any data on that?


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> I don’t think you should concern yourself with traditional flu/cold season when deciding what to do. You’ll be exposed to cold and flu season regardless if you get your vaccine now or in the fall. The vaccines don’t protect against traditional colds and flu.


In the cold seasons, we're more susceptible to infectious illnesses. Regular cold & flus wear us down (repeated infections), we're stuck indoors more often, there's less vitamin D, we're exposed to more dry air which is tough on our breathing and sinuses, etc.

So when I say cold & flu season I'm referring to the range of months when we're all more susceptible to cold-like bugs, whether it's the flu or COVID. I am guessing that it's also a more dangerous time for COVID for many of the same core reasons (like being stuck indoors, children being back at school, etc)


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> COVID finally hit our house. I’m on day 4 of symptoms. Almost over.


I'm happy to hear it's improving. How many days would you say that you felt "very sick"?


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I'm happy to hear it's improving. How many days would you say that you felt "very sick"?


Very sick….0. If there wasn’t a pandemic, I’d be out playing sports. my wife was very sick for about 2 days. The vaccine side effects from shots one and two made me feel worse than the actual disease did.


----------



## TomB16

As best I can tell based on our poor telemetry, we are well into a BA.5 wave in Canada. Infections are soaring (similar to the BA.2 peak and rising). Cases are up. Deaths are essentially flat.


----------



## Beaver101

Looks like our (Ontario's) fake CMO has finally made a decision in extending the 4th (or 2nd booster) Covid shot to below age 60:

Ontario to reveal plan for expanded 4th COVID-19 vaccine dose eligibility

Question is: has it been tweaked? Or is it the same stuffs for prior to BA2 , never mind BA4 & 5?


----------



## james4beach

I had a business call yesterday with an American colleague who I haven't seen in 3 years.

Between him and his wife, they lost his father due to COVID and lost her mother due to COVID.

His dad was triple vaccinated, and caught COVID from a healthcare worker, then died. I don't know his age but he suffered from COPD so obviously very high risk.


----------



## Spudd

Ontario just opened up 4th shots to everyone over 18.


----------



## TomB16

I just watched an interview with Dr. Fauci.






His narrative departs significantly from the data coming out of the UK.

Zoe Data for the first booster shows vaccine booster protection lasts for about 20 weeks. There is an initial two week ramp up period. The ramp up period starts with immunity reduced from prior to the vaccination. By the end of the two weeks, the vaccine will be doing a pretty good job but not yet at it's peak. Then there is 20 weeks of decent protection. This is followed by two weeks of marginal protection (now 24 weeks out so people often cite 24 weeks of protection but it is not). After 24 weeks, the data shows no protection.

This data does not prove anything about a second booster. It is supposed the second booster will have a reduced period of efficacy but we will have to wait for data to learn the reality.

Since the UK based data is open and peer reviewed while American data is limited and what there is is not open, I consider the UK data to be the most likely to be factual.

Here is the official UK study on vaccine efficacy.



https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1070356/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-16.pdf



Ok, gentlemen. Attack the way you always do when data conflicts your gut feelings.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> Looks like our (Ontario's) fake CMO has finally made a decision in extending the 4th (or 2nd booster) Covid shot to below age 60:
> 
> Ontario to reveal plan for expanded 4th COVID-19 vaccine dose eligibility
> 
> Question is: has it been tweaked? Or is it the same stuffs for prior to BA2 , never mind BA4 & 5?


Same stuff. Newer version expected in the fall.


----------



## sags

At the top of the UK summary .....so, it doesn't sound much different than what Dr. Fauci is saying.

_Vaccine effectiveness

Several studies of vaccine effectiveness (VE) have been conducted in the UK against different
COVID-19 variants. Vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic disease with the Omicron
variant is substantially lower than against the Delta variant, *with rapid waning*. However,
protection against hospitalisation remains high, particularly after 3 doses. _


----------



## TomB16

BA.2.75 is in the house. It is also capable of immune escape for most previous infections, although there is some conjecture that a BA.1 infection might provide a strong level of immunity to BA.2.75.

Beaver, what do you think about that? I look forward to your perspective.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> BA.2.75 is in the house. It is also capable of immune escape for most previous infections, although there is some conjecture that a BA.1 infection might provide a strong level of immunity to BA.2.75.
> 
> Beaver, what do you think about that? I look forward to your perspective.


 ... wear your mask, wash/sanitize your hands, stay 6 feet away from strangers, and update your Covid shots whenever available. THAT'S WHAT I THINK and will continue to do regardless of which version/variant/subvariant/lineage including ALL future ones with the annual flu type included in there as well. 

And you're correct that I'm no scientist, virologist or medical doctor either nor trying to be a wannebee one. 

Just use common sense for the common person given what we know now. And just how hard is that?!


----------



## TomB16

Gotta say, it's becoming clear the cruise idea was not a good one.

We now have a backup plan in place that will involve a lot less people and absolutely no sharing of cutlery with random people we meet on the trip.


----------



## TomB16

A new record of over 350K new COVID cases per day in the UK and new cases are accelerating. 1 in 10 people are currently infected.

Hospitalizations in the UK are trending up; deaths going down.


----------



## james4beach

I went to meet some old colleagues at a bar. I thought it was just going to be a couple people I know, but turned out to be a crowd of people. I always try to keep the numbers small (statistically, less risk of one person bringing COVID to the party).

I came to the bar wearing a mask and kept it on when not drinking, but I was definitely the only person in the whole bar who was bothering with a mask.

The man next to me has been battling cancer and mentioned he's getting another booster soon, and said he's immune compromised. I said to him: "you know, I've been in airports for the last few days. I'm happy to sit further away from you for safety, I won't be offended if you'd prefer that".

He said -- nah, no big deal, don't worry about it.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

This is why I wish we had more regulations in place _to slow the rate of COVID spread_, with capacity limits, etc. Right now there are huge amounts of COVID circulating. If we had less circulating, due to more public caution, a guy like this (who's at high risk) could have his bar night with a lower probability of catching the illness. He should be able to get out and meet with his friends. But he'd be safer if there was less COVID circulating in society.

Public Health should make masks mandatory indoors, like in offices and public transit. This is a no-brainer. Masks in the workplace are no big deal, quite easy, and will reduce absenteeism. I have some office visits coming up in the next few weeks and will be wearing a CAN95 mask at all times.


----------



## MrMatt

Wow the mainstream media is finally catching up to where I was over 2 years ago.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-reinfection-risks-adults-1.6522051



Coronaviruses have been around for thousands of years, infecting us again and again. Guess what this strain, while in some ways unique is still acting like the coronavirus it is.

Hospitals that require masks at all times are still suffering outbreaks, even in departments that don't have patient contact. Masks won't stop this, vaccines won't stop this.
I'll wear a mask at times, but really there isn't much we can do.


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> Wow the mainstream media is finally catching up to where I was over 2 years ago.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-reinfection-risks-adults-1.6522051
> 
> 
> 
> Coronaviruses have been around for thousands of years, infecting us again and again. Guess what this strain, while in some ways unique is still acting like the coronavirus it is.
> 
> Hospitals that require masks at all times are still suffering outbreaks, even in departments that don't have patient contact. Masks won't stop this, vaccines won't stop this.
> I'll wear a mask at times, but really there isn't much we can do.


And I think that’s where our public officials are at this point. They know there’s no stopping this thing. Unless a deadlier version pops up again, I think we’re done with restrictions…..unless political pressure forces their hands.

upwards of 60% of adults have had COVID (75% of children)….and survived. Rightly or wrongly, once you’ve had it and survived…you’re thinking….“all that trouble for this?”. 
I wouldn’t be surprised to see some mask mandates….but I think that‘s all we’ll see.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> I went to meet some old colleagues at a bar. I thought it was just going to be a couple people I know, but turned out to be a crowd of people...
> 
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> 
> This is why I wish we had more regulations in place _to slow the rate of COVID spread_, with capacity limits, etc. Right now there are huge amounts of COVID circulating.


You don't need regulations to avoid going to the bar. But you went and then complained that there weren't rules in place to stop you from going. If I was worried about Covid at the bar I wouldn't go to the bar.

But you're completely incapable of independent thinking. You want the government to make all of your decisions.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Wow the mainstream media is finally catching up to where I was over 2 years ago.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-reinfection-risks-adults-1.6522051
> 
> 
> 
> Coronaviruses have been around for thousands of years, infecting us again and again. Guess what this strain, while in some ways unique is still acting like the coronavirus it is.
> 
> *Hospitals that require masks at all times are still suffering outbreaks, even in departments that don't have patient contact. Masks won't stop this, vaccines won't stop this.*
> I'll wear a mask at times, but really there isn't much we can do.


 ... makes no sense on what you're BSing (bolded part) here. Why even bother opening those departments that have no patient contact? EFF-DUH.

Look if you don't want to wear a mask, that's fine. And if you want to give up on controlling it, that's fine too. The world still revolves around you.

There're STILL Covid protocols (aka Covid-specific rules) to follow in a hospital (at least in TO's hospitals if not your little town one) and masking is one of them. And the TO big hospitals are providing them (sugical cloth) masks and sanitizers EVERYWHERE, front door, next to elevators, all along the walls to the wards.

Yeah, you're right all along that coronaviruses have been around for not just the last 2 years but thousands of. These coronaviruses would have included the flu ones. However, Covid is NOT your annual friendly virus. It's a brand new type of coronaviruses that have mutated. You can call it the flu's-not-so-friendly cousin. And like all cousins, including some human beings on this forum, they can be evil.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I went to meet some old colleagues at a bar. I thought it was just going to be a couple people I know, but turned out to be a crowd of people. I always try to keep the numbers small (statistically, less risk of one person bringing COVID to the party).
> 
> I came to the bar wearing a mask and kept it on when not drinking, but I was definitely the only person in the whole bar who was bothering with a mask.
> 
> The man next to me has been battling cancer and mentioned he's getting another booster soon, and said he's immune compromised. I said to him: "you know, I've been in airports for the last few days. I'm happy to sit further away from you for safety, I won't be offended if you'd prefer that".
> *
> He said -- nah, no big deal, don't worry about it.*
> 
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> 
> This is why I wish we had more regulations in place _to slow the rate of COVID spread_, with capacity limits, etc. Right now there are huge amounts of COVID circulating. If we had less circulating, due to more public caution, a guy like this (who's at high risk) could have his bar night with a lower probability of catching the illness. He should be able to get out and meet with his friends. But he'd be safer if there was less COVID circulating in society.
> 
> Public Health should make masks mandatory indoors, like in offices and public transit. This is a no-brainer. Masks in the workplace are no big deal, quite easy, and will reduce absenteeism. I have some office visits coming up in the next few weeks and will be wearing a CAN95 mask at all times.


 ... that's a risk he's decided/willing to take. So be it. At least you can sleep at night knowing you did your part.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> And I think that’s where our public officials are at this point. They know there’s no stopping this thing.


There never was, they've been lying to us from the beginning.

I think for the most part, their actual actions were appropriate, and they screwed up a bunch.

But I think at this point, it's clearly a power grab.
Take the ArriveCAN app, the government LOVES the idea of a citizen tracker.. anyone want to put money that ArriveCAN 3 is going to be mandatory or built into smartphones?



> Unless a deadlier version pops up again, I think we’re done with restrictions…..unless political pressure forces their hands.


Of course
Now the authoritarians want to be all "we can't wait, by the time it happens it will be too late, restrictions now!!"

But the reality is that we handled SARS quite well, and we could have handled the initial SARS2 (aka Covid19) better if the government didn't mishandle it so badly.

Anyone who says we need restrictions now, or even masks should be calling for the replacement of the Federal government.

Dr "we don't need masks" Tam should have been fired.
PM "I don't want travel bans that would be racist"/"Lets send our pandemic stockpile to China" Trudeau, should have been replaced


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I went to meet some old colleagues at a bar. I thought it was just going to be a couple people I know, but turned out to be a crowd of people. I always try to keep the numbers small (statistically, less risk of one person bringing COVID to the party).
> 
> I came to the bar wearing a mask and kept it on when not drinking, but I was definitely the only person in the whole bar who was bothering with a mask.
> 
> The man next to me has been battling cancer and mentioned he's getting another booster soon, and said he's immune compromised. I said to him: "you know, I've been in airports for the last few days. I'm happy to sit further away from you for safety, I won't be offended if you'd prefer that".
> 
> He said -- nah, no big deal, don't worry about it.
> 
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> 
> This is why I wish we had more regulations in place _to slow the rate of COVID spread_, with capacity limits, etc. Right now there are huge amounts of COVID circulating. If we had less circulating, due to more public caution, a guy like this (who's at high risk) could have his bar night with a lower probability of catching the illness. He should be able to get out and meet with his friends. But he'd be safer if there was less COVID circulating in society.
> 
> Public Health should make masks mandatory indoors, like in offices and public transit. This is a no-brainer. Masks in the workplace are no big deal, quite easy, and will reduce absenteeism. I have some office visits coming up in the next few weeks and will be wearing a CAN95 mask at all times.


I just read this, it's illogical.

You think people should be allowed to congregate and have a bar night, but you want restrictions to keep people from having bar nights, to protect the more vulnerable from exercising their own choices?

You know, somewhere along this thread you have to let people accept personal responsibility.

Like I'm willing to give a bit for the common good, but you're asking me to give up a bar night, so someone else can have their bar night?
And you don't want us to both choose to have a bar night, because it's "too risky" for one of us, but neither one of us thinks it's too risky.

But you, who is ALSO going to the same bar, think it's okay, but in your opinion it's too risky for this other guy.


You really are a nanny state authoritarian aren't you?


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> You think people should be allowed to congregate and have a bar night, but you want restrictions to keep people from having bar nights, to protect the more vulnerable from exercising their own choices?


No, my point is that government measures are needed to reduce the overall spread of COVID in society. When there's less COVID circulating, every activity (bar nights, visiting family etc) becomes safer.

With broad restrictions such as mask requirements at offices + crowded public places, there would be less COVID circulating --> every activity, including bar nights, become safer.

The problem we have right now is this belief, which government is encouraging, is that everything is normal and that you don't need ANY protective measures. The few of us who are being cautious (maybe that's about 1/3 to 1/2 the population) are not enough to put a dent in the community-wide transmission. A larger amount of the population has to be cautious to achieve society-wide protection.

I'm doing my part, and most of you are as well, but our efforts are not enough to prevent aggressive society-wide transmission.

COVID spread cannot be controlled if only 1/3 the population are exercising daily caution. I think we need Public Health measures to really make a dent in the aggressive spread. Probably need more like 75% to 90% of the population using daily caution.

*You can look at public mask wearing as a good proxy / indicator for how many people are cautious. *What I've seen, in several Canadian cities, is about 25% to 33% wearing masks, so that's about the % of the population using daily caution about COVID.

Again... the key question is what % of the population is exercising caution about COVID risks, and being careful with behaviours.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> No, my point is that government measures are needed to reduce the overall spread of COVID in society. When there's less COVID circulating, every activity (bar nights, visiting family etc) becomes safer.


Coronaviruses have been around for thousands of years.
We don't shut down society, most of us are willing to accept the risks.



> I'm doing my part, and most of you are as well, but our efforts are not enough to prevent aggressive society-wide transmission.


Nope, I'm not doing enough to stop transmission, because it's not worth it.
If you were really serious about "doing your part" you wouldn't be hanging out in bars.



> Again... the key question is what % of the population is exercising caution about COVID risks, and being careful with behaviours.


You're asking the wrong question.
The key question is what measures are appropriate at this time.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> *You can look at public mask wearing as a good proxy / indicator for how many people are cautious. *What I've seen, in several Canadian cities, is about 25% to 33% wearing masks, so that's about the % of the population using daily caution about COVID.


I'm seeing way lower mask use here, maybe one in twenty. I haven't worn a mask since they dropped the mandate but I'm also not normally in highly crowded places.


----------



## damian13ster

Same. Only place you see masks is at the airport and it is hit or miss. Two days ago, on a flight to Canada, even the staff didn't wear masks, and they only said they are mandatory once landing procedures started and prior to touchdown in Canada. Prior flights it was different. I asked and they said they know it is stupid (none of them wore it, and zero passengers wore it at check-in, waiting in line, etc.) but the flight was registered in Canada so those were the rules. This time either they didn't bother or the flight was registered in US (it was United Airlines vs WestJet before).

Things should be completely back to normal. Just some authoritarians refuse to accept it because the control is slowly slipping away from them.
We had coronaviruses for ages, they simply weren't really dangerous - we had dangerous one for couple of months, now we are back to coronaviruses that aren't really dangerous
Hell, I can bet every single person had it multiple times. I am up to 3 now. Only found out because of frequency of testing for international flights and work. Otherwise wouldn't notice.


----------



## sags

We don't fly. We don't go to crowded restaurants, or other gatherings if we can avoid them. We wear masks when shopping.

Let everyone do their thing and when they go to the hospital and have to wait in their cars in the parking lot for days to see a doctor.......it is their problem.


----------



## sags

If the BA5 is as contagious as they say it is, the future without restrictions is predictable.

More people will get sick and more people will go to the hospital ER. The lineups and waiting time will increase and it will be on the news.

As the virus spreads, more employees get sick and customers stay away from restaurants and gatherings.

The businesses end up closing for lack of staff or customers.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> The businesses end up closing for lack of staff or customers.


Our restaurateurs were shut down for two years. Fancy restaurants tried to create take-out menus but mostly failed. Fast food did fine.

I know a couple of restaurant owners and the wealth they lost during lock down will never be fully recovered. They are on life support, at best.

We are going to continue dining out, occasionally. We will wear our masks to enter and leave the dining room but that is all.

Waiters will wear masks but I speculate 80% of kitchen staff will not. Our biggest exposure will be from kitchen staff.

Fortunately, we have had COVID, at least, twice so we are not in existential danger.


----------



## sags

We shall see.

So far people who said the pandemic was over have been wrong for the past 6 waves.

Maybe it will be different this 7th wave.


----------



## damian13ster

Nah, they weren't. Pandemic IS over. You simply have different definition of what it means.
You won't admit it is over until the current regime will tell you it is over. The problem is that current regime is led by fascist authoritarian, and authoritarians aren't happy to return the control taken away


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> If the BA5 is as contagious as they say it is, the future without restrictions is predictable.
> 
> More people will get sick and more people will go to the hospital ER. The lineups and waiting time will increase and it will be on the news.


My guess is that the restrictions will be back.

I know that everyone is having a lot of fun pretending the pandemic is over, but people are being far too reckless today and COVID is spreading too aggressively.

Once schools re-open, and offices get into full swing, the spread will accelerate.

The pandemic still threatens our healthcare system. One bad turn in these variants (which could happen any moment) and we're sunk.


----------



## sags

Covid is also back into LTC and retirement homes, where it can spread quickly among the elderly and there are staff shortages.


----------



## sags

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1548884747291541504


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> My guess is that the restrictions will be back.


Maybe, but there will be VERY little public support.



> I know that everyone is having a lot of fun pretending the pandemic is over, but people are being far too reckless today and COVID is spreading too aggressively.


The public thinks it's over, and they don't trust the government.

The government has been lying for 2 years,
Massive lockdowns and we'll stop it
Wear a mask and it will be over
get vaccinated and it will be over
The vaccine is safe... whoops lets pull this one because it's too dangerous.
get another booster, and it will be over
wait I meant another booster and it will be over.

They have no credibility, and unless it becomes completely apparent we're in a dire situation, people won't accept restrictions.

It isn't just crazy antivaxxer protestors who have had enough, YOU have had enough.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> My guess is that the restrictions will be back.
> 
> I know that everyone is having a lot of fun pretending the pandemic is over, but people are being far too reckless today and COVID is spreading too aggressively.
> 
> Once schools re-open, and offices get into full swing, the spread will accelerate.
> 
> The pandemic still threatens our healthcare system. One bad turn in these variants (which could happen any moment) and we're sunk.


 ... prudent people knows exactly what they should do regardless of what the sh1t-disturbers and B-Shitters on this forum say. They can close their eyes and spew all they want in their FreeDumb la-la-lands.

Answer is simple - "self responsibility (as MrMatt says and yet tells others NOT to do, disguised as tired, fed up blah blah blah bs to eternity." 

Ie. if the B-Shitters and sh1t-disturbers want to to die, so be it. The virus doesn't distinguish among its hosts.


----------



## damian13ster

"The implosion of these poorly supervised and likely corruption-ridden financial institutions should not be surprising. But how local authorities handled the fallout is shocking even to the most jaded observers of China's political scene.
Instead of compensating the depositors, who are entitled to up to 500,000 yuan, according to government regulations, officials in Henan have done everything imaginable to silence them.
*They initially restricted the movement of the depositors by turning the COVID test code on their smartphones red, which effectively made it impossible for them to take public transportation or even drive their own cars.* A public outcry forced the Henan government to abandon this abusive tactic."









China's debt bomb looks ready to explode


Many warning signs suggesting that a debt reckoning is imminent




asia.nikkei.com





“There is a level of admiration I actually have for China because their basic dictatorship is allowing them to actually turn their economy around on a dime and say we need to go green, we need to start, you know, investing in solar,” - Justin Trudeau


----------



## Beaver101

^ Still rattling in Canada, Alberta eh? LMAO.


----------



## sags

It's a darn good thing we aren't China.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> It's a darn good thing we aren't China.


We got kind of lucky that the mRNA vaccines worked so well.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> It's a darn good thing we aren't China.


With the fascist authoritarian who admires basic dictatorship at helm we are rapidly heading in that direction.
Once we are fully there - it will be too late.

At least there is some good news:


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/covid-19-immunization-no-longer-required-ahs-staff-1.6524612


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> We got kind of lucky that the mRNA vaccines worked so well.


Three doses of sinovac work better than three doses of mRNA vaccine


----------



## sags

james4beach said:


> We got kind of lucky that the mRNA vaccines worked so well.


Amazing given the speed of it’s development.


----------



## TomB16

The UK is at a new peak infection rate. The US is likely also but no data.

The data is clear. The pandemic is not over.

Re-infections have been observed in as little as 28 days. I haven't found any data to suggest the reinfection is the same variant or a different flavour of COVID.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> We got kind of lucky that the mRNA vaccines worked so well.


Are you reading big Pharma press releases again/


----------



## Spudd

TomB16 said:


> Three doses of sinovac work better than three doses of mRNA vaccine


According to this chart from the Economist, only if you're 80+.


----------



## TomB16

I'm heartened to hear Canadian physicians _not_ recommend a second booster for all Canadians. Physicians interviewed on The National indicated they are going to push for Canadians to get three doses. Fourth doses will be recommended on an individual case basis.

I must admit, I thought north american healthcare would recommend vaccines at every turn, as it is in the best interest of big pharma.

Before you cite the record infection rate of BA.5 and try to connect that to a need for vaccine, neither the new Omicron vaccine nor the mRNA classic protect against BA.5. BA.5 can break through any vaccine and, it would seem, natural immunity gained from a previous infection.


----------



## sags

The experts say the vaccines protect against hospitalization and death, so I will be scheduling my 4th shot next week and then get another in the fall.

To each their own....you pays your money and takes your chances.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> To each their own....


In my case, I'm going to stick with science. That means following data and listening to experts in the field. Since the best and some of the only data is coming out of the UK, that is where I am focusing.


----------



## londoncalling

TomB16 said:


> In my case, I'm going to stick with science. That means following data and listening to experts in the field. Since the best and some of the only data is coming out of the UK, that is where I am focusing.


 I don't believe the current variants are life threatening to the masses but I would not want to be quarantined on holiday as a result of Covid version whichever it is we are will be facing. Still planning to stuff your yourself into a floating sardine aka cruise ship with poor ventilation? No judgement either way.


----------



## TomB16

Yes. We are already signed up for the lozenge relay event on the lido deck.  

At the risk of being serious, we now have a longer term apartment in Europe so we will have a place to stay if we end up ditching the cruise. That decision has not been made. I estimate my wife assumes we will take the cruise while I consider it a 50/50.


----------



## sags

Europe is on fire.........even London, England is burning.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> Europe is on fire.........even London, England is burning.


For sure.

We have a few months before we leave so it is unlikely BA.5 that will knock us off that path. By the time we leave, BA.5 will have calmed down, there will have been a brief pause, and probably another variant will be starting to ramp up.


----------



## sags

President Biden has covid. He is being treated and there will be a White House press briefing.

One expert said it is not unexpected for the President to become infected, because the infectiousness of the new covid variant is "extraordinary".

Some doctors in Canada say the situation in hospital ERs are the worst they have seen in 40 years. The docs and nurses are worn out and getting sick.

LTC and retirement homes are becoming infected and the staff is also worn out and depleted.

It looks like governments are going to have to reintroduce restrictions to slow the spread and keep hospitals functioning........like it or not.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I think Doug Ford and his newly elected health team have gone fishing disguised as "hard at work brainstorming (in the rears)".

Ontario hospital workers unions demand action to address staffing shortages as ERs forced to shut down


----------



## sags

Do you believe that hundreds of Ontario LTC homes don't even have air conditioning ? And now.......they have covid and staff shortages during a heat wave.

I don't think Ford is capable of making decisions and is riding Trudeau's coat tails on economic announcements while hiding the rest of the time.

He pops up to make a joint announcement and then disappears again.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Do you believe that hundreds of Ontario LTC homes don't even have air conditioning ? And now.......they have covid and staff shortages during a heat wave.


 ... don't disbelieve it. There was a news article about a 96 year old residing in one of the better(?) ($3,500/month) LTC home, melting away. 



> I don't think Ford is capable of making decisions and is riding Trudeau's coat tails on economic announcements while hiding the rest of the time.
> 
> He pops up to make a joint announcement and then disappears again.


 ... it wouldn't surprise me of more upcoming lawsuits against the government for not doing its job of enforcing LTC to supply its units with A/C since the residents there can't install its own units. The fans that are NOW allowed to bring in only blows hot air all around ... just like those coming out from Ford's mouth. I wonder where is his MIL is living at these days?


----------



## sags

There should be class action lawsuits filed for those who lost family members due to the criminal neglect of the Doug Ford conservatives.


----------



## james4beach

Spudd said:


> According to this chart from the Economist


Notice for the 2 doses how BioNTech (mRNA) effectiveness was far higher than the Chinese vaccine.

With 3 doses we're into the noise margins. It's nice to see that the _Chinese vaccine catches up to_ the effectiveness of mRNA with the third shot, and there isn't any appreciable difference between any of these.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> There should be class action lawsuits filed for those who lost family members due to the criminal neglect of the Doug Ford conservatives.


 ... personally, I would rather be proactive than reactive when it comes to health emergencies. Those families in LTC under health swelter conditions should find other ways of keeping cool like putting ice behind the fans - a temporary DIY A/C and keep screaming in the CEO, senior VPs' ears until this is remedied "permanently".

Better yet, get friends or other families to set up protests in front of their administrative offices since they don't mind the publicity!!!


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Notice for the 2 doses how BioNTech (mRNA) effectiveness was far higher than the Chinese vaccine.
> 
> With 3 doses we're into the noise margins. It's nice to see that the _Chinese vaccine catches up to_ the effectiveness of mRNA with the third shot, and there isn't any appreciable difference between any of these.


Sinovac catches up and passes mRNA vaccines on the third dose, as I pointed out weeks ago.


----------



## Dade

The more you take the vaccine the more compromised your immune system gets. Who let the politicians foist this on us?


----------



## MrBlackhill

Where have you read this?

The goal of a vaccine is exactly the opposite, it's to teach your immune system how to fight a future infection.

Some of the symptoms that some people get when vaccinated is exactly because their immune system is kicking in.

What comprised our immune system is social distancing, masks, lockdowns and the use of antibacterials because all of this reduce our exposure to viruses and bacterias. *But* it was still the better solution because COVID was too strong and created that pandemic situation so we had to use these measures while waiting for a vaccine which would help our immune system being able to fight COVID.

Yay, another thread which will have lots of debates!


----------



## bgc_fan

MrBlackhill said:


> Where have you read this?


There is some speculation that having the immune system as being "on" all the time stresses it and makes T-Cell response less effective over time. The thing is there is no proof as it hasn't really been studied. COVID: Do multiple boosters 'exhaust' our immune response? | DW | 18.01.2022

A quick search would bring this older study: Viral Immune Evasion Due to Persistence of Activated T Cells Without Effector Function. However, there are some pretty big caveats as the study was with regards to being exposed to a virus on a continual basis as opposed to small controled exposures via vaccine over time.

Of course, those that promote this thinking forget the fact that being exposed to the virus in the wild will do the same sort of thing. With the current variant running wildfire, there's a good chance that some people will get exposed more often than getting the boosters. Not to mention the possibility of reinfection: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abn4947


----------



## TomB16

The data is pretty clear that vaccination reduces the chances of hospitalization and death in the adult population. This advantage was far more so in the early days of COVID.

Here is CDC data published a month ago.









Cases, Data, and Surveillance


Cases, data, and surveillance to track and analyze COVID-19.




www.cdc.gov





Initial studies in the UK suggest a negative benefit and risk of severe reaction to vaccination for young children.

For the rest of us, the benefits of vaccination have gone down as immunity increases so the risk/benefit is changing. The idea that if one to three vaccinations are good then an infinite number of vaccinations are better seems to be an incorrect line of thought.


----------



## TomB16

It's interesting that President Biden contracted COVID, despite strong safety measures. People who think they can dodge COVID may not understand how transmissible BA.5 is.


----------



## Spudd

TomB16 said:


> Sinovac catches up and passes mRNA vaccines on the third dose, as I pointed out weeks ago.


Did you not look at the chart in post 2988? Do you have a better source than that?


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> It's interesting that President Biden contracted COVID, despite strong safety measures. People who think they can dodge COVID may not understand how transmissible BA.5 is.


And how many times has our fearless leader contracted COVID?


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> It's interesting that President Biden contracted COVID, despite strong safety measures. People who think they can dodge COVID may not understand how transmissible BA.5 is.


Is he being careful? He is routinely in large groups of people.


----------



## TomB16

Spudd said:


> Did you not look at the chart in post 2988? Do you have a better source than that?


I did look at it. That data is similar to but a bit in conflict with the data I've seen. Unfortunately, I have lost track of the link to the data I am citing.

I recall the study included Brazil and Mexico where they use a lot of Sinovac. It also included other countries but I don't recall what they are.

I'm pretty sure the study was published by the WHO and it was a reasonably comprehensive comparison of Sinovac vs mRNA (both Pfizer and Moderna). From memory, both mRNA vaccines offered substantially better protection in one and two doses but Sinovac was a bit better in all regards when comparing at the three dose level.

This information came to me from Dr. John Campbell's YouTube channel. I recall following the link and checking out the data, which I usually do. Unfortunately, he has created a ton of videos on COVID and I couldn't the link in a reasonable time. 98% of what he does is aggregate studies and data so there are a ton of links to sift through. If I find the link, I will post back.

[Edit]

Further... this data was cited on Dr. Campbell's YT channel and Prof. Tim Spector may have also cited the same data but it was a couple of months ago. There are a handful of doctors who sift through this data daily and they are way, way out front on this. There have been many cases where they have indicated a trend, established healthcare has condemned it as heresy, and a few weeks later established healthcare presents the very same idea as if they came up with it.

There is a group of people who present all data the data they feel comes from a reliable source, even if it contradicts their position. That is the kind of objectivity that makes them excellent sources. They can be wrong and turn on a dime when better data comes in. That is exactly what I am looking for in data aggregation.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Is he being careful? He is routinely in large groups of people.


Of course he isn't being careful
1. It's not a big risk.
2. he's a senile old man, others are deciding for him, and for them it is win-win.

If he mingles and gets political support, and lives ... good
if he dies, they can replace him with someone else they want, still good for him.
3. it is a risk, but he honestly thinks it's worth it for other goals.

Go ahead pick one.


----------



## sags

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/w5a5ip


----------



## james4beach

It's only a matter of time before masks become mandatory again throughout Canada. Vaccines don't prevent transmission, and symptomatic people aren't staying at home. So masks really are the only technology that can prevent aggressive disease transmission.

I've always said the same thing on this topic: it's healthier and *easier* for people to just stick with mask usage. What's much more difficult for people is constantly changing the rules -- it's disorienting. Stable and consistent rules are easier to follow.

It was a huge mistake for Public Health authorities to give the public the idea that restrictions like masks and capacity limits aren't needed any more. They also let the public believe that COVID is no longer dangerous. This was sloppy messaging.

My guess is that the business lobbyists exerted their power over government. As often is the case, business interests trumped citizen health & safety. Of course these businesses are being stupid, because if we get into a very severe wave due to all this recklessness, they are going to suffer huge interruptions to their businesses -- AGAIN.

Now people are going to be confused and angry when they have to go back to wearing masks.

~ ~ ~ ~

Just wait until schools re-open. The germ factories will ramp up to full speed, while cold weather forces more indoor time, and immune systems weaken. Every child is going to catch covid -- AGAIN -- and spread it to all their parents -- AGAIN. Their parents will go to the office while sick, where they will infect everyone else.


----------



## Beaver101

New Zealand COVID-19 death rate at record levels

Oh well.


----------



## sags

The anti-vaxxer brigade are going to have to shift to a new theory, as the abridged "herd immunity" theory dribbles away.

Maybe they can connect it to Trudeau's haircut or something.


----------



## sags

andrewf said:


> Is he being careful? He is routinely in large groups of people.


The White House has extensive covid safety protocols, but the new variant managed to slip through the defenses.


----------



## sags

Beyond clogging up the already stressed healthcare system and adding further delays to surgeries and treatments for other patients, the threat of a more lethal variant continues as the virus continues to spread and re-invent itself.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> The anti-vaxxer brigade are going to have to shift to a new theory, as the abridged "herd immunity" theory dribbles away.


Data shows the original Wuhan variant vaccine and the new BA.1 based vaccine are useless against BA.5, the current dominant strain.

The pro-vaxxer brigade seem to be stuck on the theory that if some vaccine is good, more vaccine is better.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> Beyond clogging up the already stressed healthcare system and adding further delays to surgeries and treatments for other patients, the threat of a more lethal variant continues as the virus continues to spread and re-invent itself.


I share your point of view on this. What do you propose we do about it?


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> I share your point of view on this. What do you propose we do about it?


I suggest better monitoring. At least the federal government is bringing back random traveller testing, which is a good move.

But I think provinces need to bring back PCR testing for the public. These samples can then be tested for variants, so this gives a way to monitor for new variants circulating in public.


----------



## sags

The government should have isolated Covid treatment facilities away from hospitals by now., so hospitals would be unaffected by the influx of Covid patients.

Our ER departments are at the breaking point.

In most cases Covid patients are examined, given some meds or an inhaler and sent home anyways.


----------



## james4beach




----------



## james4beach

I have a cousin who lives in Europe (who's a doctor). Both of his parents just caught COVID and ended up in the hospital, where they stayed for 2 days. They've been discharged and are improving at home.

The parents are in their 70s. One is very high risk due to other health problems, but the other is reasonably healthy.

I have trouble believing "omicron is no big deal" when it sends two of my relatives to the hospital.


*Edit*: my cousin had COVID himself ~ 2 months ago. Lately, he's had lots of direct exposure to the two COVID-positive parents while caring for them. He didn't get sick, so it appears that he has immunity that is lasting for at least a few months after previously getting sick.


----------



## Beaver101

^ By all means, try not to catch Covid. If one is in need of "emergency" treatment and has Covid, I don't the docs want there to touch you. Which means you're sh1t out of luck on "saving". Not sure about having a Covid history though.

*Bottomline:* Don't listen to the BShitters (including those on this forum) about Covid isn't a "big deal", "it's just the cold, the flu, the blah blah blah BSs to infinity, etc." If they want to catch and/or keep it, then by all means with all the powers to them.


----------



## damian13ster

UK scientists determined what is causing the liver disease in children.
It was caused by lockdowns.









Scientists identify likely cause of mysterious children's liver disease


Scientists in the U.K. say they have identified the likely cause of a recent outbreak of mysterious liver disease afflicting young children around the world.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## Beaver101

^ And they call themselves "scientists" - what part of the "lockdowns" affected the kiddie's livers? Too many junk foods gorged while being babysat by their parents' computers/smartphones? That's also called "inert" liver disease too just as them parents going through their own self-created stir-craziness ... no wonder we have these Freedumbs' movements ...


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I have trouble believing "omicron is no big deal" when it sends two of my relatives to the hospital.


High risk individuals in their 70's and they got released in 2 days... Yeah I'd say that it's clearly not a huge risk.

Also you have to consider the cost of all these measures and lockdowns.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> High risk individuals in their 70's and they got released in 2 days... Yeah I'd say that it's clearly not a huge risk.
> 
> Also you have to consider the cost of all these measures and lockdowns.


I know you don't think that's a huge risk but all this depends on _what % of 70 year olds_ end up in hospital when these waves hit Canada.

The hospitals can only handle so many admissions before it becomes a national crisis, requiring new restrictions.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I know you don't think that's a huge risk but all this depends on _what % of 70 year olds_ end up in hospital when these waves hit Canada.
> 
> The hospitals can only handle so many admissions before it becomes a national crisis, requiring new restrictions.


And restrictions without public support won't work.

A few thousand peaceful protestors was a national emergency, what happens when tens of millions say "no".


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> And restrictions without public support won't work.
> 
> A few thousand peaceful protestors was a national emergency, what happens when tens of millions say "no".


 ... peaceful my butts. They were as peaceful as freeDumbers.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> And restrictions without public support won't work.
> 
> A few thousand peaceful protestors was a national emergency, what happens when tens of millions say "no".


I think the public was more on board with this than you let on. You're reading too much American news, and paying too much attention to those religious & MAGA nuts who attacked Ottawa.

Just because you have problems with government rules doesn't mean other people do.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I think the public was more on board with this than you let on. You're reading too much American news, and paying too much attention to those religious & MAGA nuts who attacked Ottawa.


With what? Restrictions?

I don't see it, less than 10% are even wearing masks.

Sorry MAGA nuts aren't the runs running around without masks, that's ordinary Canadians.


----------



## Synergy

Colleague has had COVID for 5 days now, sick as a dog! Has had all 4 doses and no prior infection. Good health, middle age, no preexisting conditions, follows public health recommendations more than most, etc. Maybe if we walk around with an IV drip of this stuff flowing through our veins it would work well. There must be a better way!


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> With what? Restrictions?
> 
> I don't see it, less than 10% are even wearing masks.
> 
> Sorry MAGA nuts aren't the runs running around without masks, that's ordinary Canadians.


 ... say that again about the MAGA nuts ... were they running around with masks on? Just like those FreeDumbers that descended to Ottawa, trying to hold the city hostage with their horn blastings all night long and harassing the locals, all because they couldn't get an audience with the PM. Waaaah!!!!


----------



## Beaver101

Synergy said:


> Colleague has had COVID for 5 days now, sick as a dog! Has had all 4 doses and no prior infection. Good health, middle age, no preexisting conditions, follows public health recommendations more than most, etc. Maybe if we walk around with an IV drip of this stuff flowing through our veins it would work well. There must be a better way!


 ... I'm surprised your presumably "healthy" middle-age colleague got "4" vaccine doses. And are you sure that he came down with Covid, and not the flu? Did he/she ever had the flu in his or her life? I'm curious.


----------



## Synergy

Beaver101 said:


> ... I'm surprised your presumably "healthy" middle-age colleague got "4" vaccine doses. And are you sure that he came down with Covid, and not the flu? Did he/she ever had the flu in his or her life? I'm curious.


Not surprising to me. Increase case numbers in our area, symptoms match, positive tests, etc. Hard to avoid infection (cold and flu) when you have young kids. So yes, prior infection - like almost our entire population. Very few influenza cases in my region at the moment.

We need a better vaccine.


----------



## james4beach

Synergy said:


> Colleague has had COVID for 5 days now, sick as a dog! Has had all 4 doses and no prior infection. Good health, middle age, no preexisting conditions, follows public health recommendations more than most, etc. Maybe if we walk around with an IV drip of this stuff flowing through our veins it would work well. There must be a better way!


I just checked with those relatives who caught COVID (the two who ended up in hospital).

Both had 4 doses Pfizer and still ended up in the hospital.


----------



## sags

Yes…..we need a much better vaccine and we need it now.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Both had 4 doses Pfizer and still ended up in the hospital.


Are they going to try 8 doses?

We do not have a vaccine that protects against BA.5. More vaccine will not help. Everyone needs to be vaccinated to keep the earlier variants under control but the two vaccines do not control BA.5. BA.5 dominates specifically because it can get around immunity from previous infections and vaccines.

By the time we have a BA.5 vaccine, the BA.5 wave will be long past.

One of you guys with all the answers need come up with a solution because, from what I can tell, we are all going to get BA.5 and develop natural immunity.

As for reinfections, we may be getting covid multiple times but we don't sequence infections so we don't know if they are the same variant. Britain is doing a bit of that work but I haven't seen conclusive data from them, yet. If someone else has, please let us know.

Oh, and regarding the infant vaccines... The UK data I've seen shows it is doing more harm than good but I desperately hope someone is studying this. I hate to see children exposed to unnecessary risk to sell more covid juice.


----------



## TomB16

At this point, the best thing you can do is take the vaccine and two weeks later get a covid infection. That covid infection will be mild, as will subsequent infections.

Vaccine wildly lowers the risk of hospitalization and death from infection. Infection lowers the risk of hospitalization and death from subsequent infections.

Covid is no big deal for those with immunity from infection. The days of 1% death rates are long past for the vast majority of us. Death rates are now extreme low. The sky is not falling.

It is pretty clear that avoiding infection is not a good idea for most people. Of course, there are exceptions.


----------



## sags

I haven't had covid. My wife hasn't had covid, despite working in a retirement home where there has been and still is residents with covid.

Our son and his 4 kids had covid......but not his spouse, so go figure.

We know a few of our neighbors and they haven't had covid either. I think the theory that everyone is going to get covid is an overstatement.


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> We do not have a vaccine that protects against BA.5. More vaccine will not help. Everyone needs to be vaccinated to keep the earlier variants under control but the two vaccines do not control BA.5. BA.5 dominates specifically because it can get around immunity from previous infections and vaccines.


As the experts were saying over 2 years ago, it is unlikely we'll get an effective COVID19 vaccine.
Guess what, despite all the lies from the government, we don't have an effective COVID19 vaccine

Sure the vaccine might have some benefits, but it isn't nearly effective enough to end this... Which I was saying from the beginning.( early/mid 2020)
Also finally now, a year after Trudeau Promised a vaccine for EVERY Canadian, we FINALLY have a vaccine approved for all Canadians.. it just doesn't work very well.


----------



## andrewf

I saw a large study done by the VA in the US that found that second and later infections had a higher risk of hospitalization and long COVID than first infections, regardless of vaccination status. That is pretty grim news, as most of us were reasonably expecting that subsequent reinfection would lead to less severe disease.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> I saw a large study done by the VA in the US that found that second and later infections had a higher risk of hospitalization and long COVID than first infections, regardless of vaccination status. That is pretty grim news, as most of us were reasonably expecting that subsequent reinfection would lead to less severe disease.


 ... that's not what TomB16's study in post #3042 is saying. In fact, the opposite so who's the public to believe in ?


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> As the experts were saying over 2 years ago, it is unlikely we'll get an effective COVID19 vaccine.
> Guess what, despite all the lies from the government, we don't have an effective COVID19 vaccine
> 
> Sure the vaccine might have some benefits, but it isn't nearly effective enough to end this... Which I was saying from the beginning.( early/mid 2020)
> Also finally now, a year after Trudeau Promised a vaccine for EVERY Canadian, we FINALLY have a vaccine approved for all Canadians..* it just doesn't work very well.*


 .. not Trudeau's fault. You can blame the big pharmas for that. And be sure to include Warp Speed on that too.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> I haven't had covid. My wife hasn't had covid, despite working in a retirement home where there has been and still is residents with covid.
> 
> Our son and his 4 kids had covid......but not his spouse, so go figure.
> 
> We know a few of our neighbors and they haven't had covid either. I think the theory that everyone is going to get covid is an overstatement.


It is far more likely that all of you have had asymptomatic covid.

You could be tested for this but we don't do that.


----------



## sags

If there is that high level of asymptomatic covid, it would render all covid related data useless.

I don't care much about the "official" data anyways. It is often motivated by political appointees.

The best place to find covid information is the doctors and nurses in the ER, ICU, and covid treatment rooms at the hospitals.

All the other data is just backgound noise, now that it has been compromised by Provincial political agendas..


----------



## sags

The wife came home from work and said they are going on covid lockdown again, as they had 1 resident with covid days ago and now there is 8 with covid.

The pandemic is not over, regardless of how much some people want to pretend that it is.

A return to lock downs and restrictions will come in the fall, as people observe the virus spinning out of control and demand the government step in.

Pray the covid virus doesn't breed into the much feared doomsday virus.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> If there is that high level of asymptomatic covid, it would render all covid related data useless.


What data would that be?

We just barely test and sequence just enough to create a graph of variants to trick observers into thinking we have relevant data.

Our sequencing has frequently varied from European sequencing. Some conclude things are different here and the us but there is also a very real possibility our sequencing is such a small sample group as to not represent the population. I feel the later case is more likely but it is impossible to tell without a lot more testing.

The Phizer data cited by the white house when they started recommending vaccination for infants was based on six cases. Read it. Holy cow. Now we are seeing contradictory data out of the UK. It doesn't look like a disaster but it also looks like a politically motivated recommendation based on insufficient data.

So, yeah,... I wouldnt be all that worried about our data.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> I saw a large study done by the VA in the US that found that second and later infections had a higher risk of hospitalization and long COVID than first infections, regardless of vaccination status. That is pretty grim news, as most of us were reasonably expecting that subsequent reinfection would lead to less severe disease.


I agree that's a rather shocking finding.
I would have expect exposure to provide some additional protection.

It's interesting that there is also some flu shot data suggesting vaccination every year is good, but occasionally skipping a year might offer some benefits. 
I am a strong believer in vaccines today, but I think that some of the new science might raise questions.

I'm even more concerned that research which might not be favourable to vaccinations might be blocked/unfunded out of fear of supporting anti-vaxxers.

Best way to push a "science based" policy is block contradictory research, second best is to censor it.


----------



## Synergy

Beaver101 said:


> .. not Trudeau's fault. You can blame the big pharmas for that. And be sure to include Warp Speed on that too.


I would expect a higher level of intelligence and common sense from a Premier. Trudeau is an arrogant dumb ***, to say the least. He believes his own bullshit.


----------



## Synergy

Beaver101 said:


> ... I'm surprised your presumably "healthy" middle-age colleague got "4" vaccine doses. And are you sure that he came down with Covid, and not the flu? Did he/she ever had the flu in his or her life? I'm curious.


The infection was finally traced down to an event that brought people together from numerous parts of Ontario. A lot of healthy middle aged individuals with families are so scared of getting COVID they will push an 80yr old out of the way to get their shot! Things are changing.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> The wife came home from work and said they are going on covid lockdown again, as they had 1 resident with covid days ago and now there is 8 with covid.
> 
> The pandemic is not over, regardless of how much some people want to pretend that it is.


That's interesting, thanks for sharing.


----------



## Beaver101

Synergy said:


> I would expect a higher level of intelligence and common sense from a Premier.


 ...which Premier? Ford, Kenney, Moe, Legault, etc. And those Premiers would then point fingers at the CMO=Chief Medical Officer who'll then point fingers at the provincial Health Minister. 

Just look at Ontario's version - the current CMO (fake one as more like a CPoliticalO) Moore head and the newly appointed Jones broad who is nowhere to be found or even made a speech despite the dire situations in some Ontario hospitals with staff shortages, burnouts, etc. and ER closures which'll only spread. I guess it's ALOT EASIER than to do the "I see nothing, I do nothing" aka playing stupid, dumb and deaf game as many in corporate world does.

At the end of the day, all will be pointing fingers (or in this case HAVE TO REPORT) back to Ford. I think the idea of being re-elected as Premier is getting to Ford's head. He thinks Ontario voters NEED him when the truth is Ontario voters are his boss, not the other way around. It doesn't require a "higher level of intelligence" to have "low" "common sense". And sadly, Ford is losing the latter this time around. While we may be stucked with him for 3.5 more years - he'll also be stucked with us screaming in his ears at the same time. He could consider himself for the Con leadership vying to be next PM but simultaneously, he'll be reviewed for his "performance" and right now at not even an year into his next term, he gets "3" out of "10". If you want to make it a 5 stars review, I'll give him 1 at "best".




> Trudeau is *an arrogant dumb ***, to say the least. He believes his own bullshit*.


 ... I guess you haven't noticed but this is no different from many of the posters (particularly in this thread) on this forum too. No?


----------



## Beaver101

I wonder if the new health minister for Ontario has a brain-dead problem.

Ontario paramedics say offload delays getting worse amid staff shortages, ER closures


----------



## Beaver101

Want to live on residence at UoT? Better be "fully vaccinated" meaning "3" shots ... 2 initial +1 booster. Sounds right.

U of T will require all students living in residence to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 with a booster dose


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> Want to live on residence at UoT? Better be "fully vaccinated" meaning "3" shots ... 2 initial +1 booster. Sounds right.
> 
> U of T will require all students living in residence to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 with a booster dose


Interested to see if other schools follow suit. My son only has 2 doses and starts university in sept. not UofT.

Not sure I agree with this…..the virus Doesn’t seem to harm people Under 30 that much. And they seem to do little to prevent transmission, so why the mandate?
do universities check for other “required” vaccines?


----------



## damian13ster

The vaccines don't work against new variants - answer, develop new ones and stop using ineffective ones?
Nah, we need 5th and 6th doses of what we have. More the better, right?


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> Want to live on residence at UoT? Better be "fully vaccinated" meaning "3" shots ... 2 initial +1 booster. Sounds right.
> 
> U of T will require all students living in residence to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 with a booster dose


Thinking more about this. Students accepted their universities Some time ago. And surely some have already paid for tuition and residence. Doesn’t give them a lot of options this late. And we’re not even requiring health care workers to have 3 doses.

UofT ahead of the curve? ..can we expect 3 doses to be requireD down the road for other establishments? Gyms? Restaurants? Flights?


----------



## Synergy

Beaver101 said:


> ... I guess you haven't noticed but this is no different from many of the posters (particularly in this thread) on this forum too. No?


I would expect a lot more from the Premier of Canada!


----------



## TomB16

Money172375 said:


> Thinking more about this. Students accepted their universities Some time ago. And surely some have already paid for tuition and residence. Doesn’t give them a lot of options this late. And we’re not even requiring health care workers to have 3 doses.


Perhaps the goal was to create a project for undergrads in the Faculty of Law.


----------



## james4beach

I posted an error earlier, when I mentioned two of my relatives in Europe who both caught COVID and were hospitalized.

The man (high risk, with various health problems) had 4 shots.
The woman (pretty good health) *had only 2 shots, the primary series.*

Additionally, the woman had gotten run down and exhausted in the preceding days, excessive work/stress and insufficient sleep.

Earlier I said they both had 4 shots which wasn't true.


----------



## james4beach

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/fourth-dose-omicron-booster-waning-immunity-1.6496394


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Thinking more about this. Students accepted their universities Some time ago. And surely some have already paid for tuition and residence. Doesn’t give them a lot of options this late. And we’re not even requiring health care workers to have 3 doses.
> 
> UofT ahead of the curve? ..can we expect 3 doses to be requireD down the road for other establishments? Gyms? Restaurants? Flights?


 .. don't know about UoT as being ahead of the curve but the "general" population (aka public) will be getting 3 shots, if not more if Covid takes another turn to be nastier. Can't compare to the health workers given the staffing shortages. I mean Quebec hospitals made exceptions to allow Covid positive employees to work. (Yeech) But definitely NOT for Toronto's hospitals and I hope they stay this way for the duration of the "pandemic". 

Re the other occupations - never mind about them for now. 

Just ask your buddies over at TD Bank if their employer has not mandated them to be "fully" vaccinated (aka at least 3 shots) if they're to return to their place of work? Yes or no?


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Perhaps the goal was to create a project for undergrads in the Faculty of Law.


 ... could be. And see if they can do something for them convoy FreeDumbers like offering pro-bono services to keep these hill-billies out of jail? I would love to see that kind of project coming out from the Law Faculty.


----------



## Beaver101

Synergy said:


> I would expect a lot more from the Premier of Canada!


 ... we don't have a "Premier" of Canada but we do have a premier for each of the province of Canada. 

I don't disagree with you that we, as Canadian "taxpayers" expect more from our Prime Minister just as for our premiers or "elected" officials. But then like most CEOs, the "self-interest" is the number 1 priority with these individuals. Taxpayers and employees are minions to them.


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> .. don't know about UoT as being ahead of the curve but the "general" population (aka public) will be getting 3 shots, if not more if Covid takes another turn to be nastier.  Can't compare to the health workers given the staffing shortages. I mean Quebec hospitals made exceptions to allow Covid positive employees to work. (Yeech) But definitely NOT for Toronto's hospitals and I hope they stay this way for the duration of the "pandemic".
> 
> Re the other occupations - never mind about them for now.
> 
> Just ask your buddies over at TD Bank if their employer has not mandated them to be "fully" vaccinated (aka at least 3 shots) if they're to return to their place of work? Yes or no?


As far as I know, there are no other industries or organizations mandating any vaccines.


----------



## TomB16

Money172375 said:


> As far as I know, there are no other industries or organizations mandating any vaccines.


I suspect we are like minded in this being a step too far.

If employers and landlords can demand proof of vaccination, people do not have control of the medications they take.

I really hope students challenge this policy and I hope they win. I also hope they consider how vaccination can help them reduce the risk of getting COVID.

Weak minded people seem to think forcing others to comply is a great idea. If we don't stand up to these behaviours, we will not live in a free society.


----------



## Money172375

Anyone know the rules or process to get Paxlovid in Ontario?


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> I suspect we are like minded in this being a step too far.
> 
> If employers and landlords can demand proof of vaccination, people do not have control of the medications they take.
> 
> I really hope students challenge this policy and I hope they win. I also hope they consider how vaccination can help them reduce the risk of getting COVID.
> 
> Weak minded people seem to think forcing others to comply is a great idea. If we don't stand up to these behaviours, we will not live in a free society.


My employer was for the first half of the year requiring proof of vaccination or regular (every few days) testing. They have since stopped requiring anything.


----------



## sags

Biden tests positive for covid again.


----------



## andrewf

This seems to happen a lot with paxlovid (same thing happened with Stephen Colbert, for instance), where it gives the false impression of clearing the infection while only suppressing it for a time and then having it return. As I understand it, the clinical trials for paxlovid showed it helped in unvaccinated cases, but is now being used routinely for vaccinated cases, where it may not actually help.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> This seems to happen a lot with paxlovid (same thing happened with Stephen Colbert, for instance), where it gives the false impression of clearing the infection while only suppressing it for a time and then having it return.* As I understand it, the clinical trials for paxlovid showed it helped in unvaccinated cases, but is now being used routinely for vaccinated cases, where it may not actually help.*


 ... sounds like there's no getting around on being vaccinated short of taking your chances with a severe case of Covid.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> My employer was for the first half of the year requiring proof of vaccination or regular (every few days) testing. They have since stopped requiring anything.


 ... sounds like your employer as with any employer was weak-minded too. LMAO ...


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Biden tests positive for covid again.


 .. and back to isolation. Will be interesting to see the effects of his re-infection (2nd). Hopefully he comes out okay.


----------



## andrewf

Beaver101 said:


> ... sounds like your employer as with any employer was weak-minded too. LMAO ...


Following local health advice. Who cares whether it makes sense.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> Following local health advice. Who cares whether it makes sense.


 ... don't disagree on this either as them local/public health are of weak-minds too. LMAO. 

When it comes down to a "pandemic" (aka affecting human being on this planet), whether it makes sense or not (which is dependent on the eyes of the beholder) doesn't matter. Besides, even the "real " "medical/scientific" experts can't get it right.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> Besides, even the "real " "medical/scientific" experts can't get it right.


Quite a few of them can and have gotten it right by studying the data and using the scientific method.


It might make sense for some of the COVIDphobes to get tested to see if their body has a strong immune response to COVID. In the UK, something like 99.7% of people have a level of protection from either an infection or vaccine. I expect Canada to be similar.

For those of us with some protection, the 1% death rate days are long over. COVID is a cold now. Like other colds, a handful of people will catch it and die but the odds of death are very, very, very low for those with immunity.

We have booked a cruise for this fall. We aren't 100% that we will go but I would say 60%. If we get COVID, it will be like a cold. The worst aspect will be having to pay for a quarantine hotel and meals at ridiculous rates. There is no fear of dying. 

I have gotten a cold on most of our extended vacations. It's a reality of air travel but I've picked up colds outside of aircraft, as well. We aren't gambling with our lives.

On a positive note, if I don't make it through this fall vacation AltaRed can start a thread explaining that active management, balancing, and diversification are the path to the highest returns with no push back.


----------



## TomB16

Here is some more conversation fuel... we are heading to Asia for 4 months after returning from Europe. The belly of the beast!

At some point, we are sure to be served COVID tainted egg roll and succumb to the disease while wearing cone shaped hats.


----------



## londoncalling

I have a friend who is currently on a British Isles cruise. When he returns I will quiz him just to see what it was like. I believe this is his 2nd or perhaps 3rd cruise since travel restrictions were lifted.


----------



## damian13ster

Federal privacy commissioner investigating controversial ArriveCAN app - National | Globalnews.ca


The Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada is investigating a complaint about the ArriveCAN app and how it collects and uses personal data.




globalnews.ca


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Quite a few of them can and have gotten it right by studying the data and using the scientific method.
> 
> 
> It might make sense for some of the COVIDphobes to get tested to see if their body has a strong immune response to COVID. In the UK, something like 99.7% of people have a level of protection from either an infection or vaccine. I expect Canada to be similar.
> 
> For those of us with some protection, the 1% death rate days are long over. COVID is a cold now. Like other colds, a handful of people will catch it and die but the odds of death are very, very, very low for those with immunity.
> 
> We have booked a cruise for this fall. We aren't 100% that we will go but I would say 60%. If we get COVID, it will be like a cold. The worst aspect will be having to pay for a quarantine hotel and meals at ridiculous rates. There is no fear of dying.
> 
> I have gotten a cold on most of our extended vacations. It's a reality of air travel but I've picked up colds outside of aircraft, as well. We aren't gambling with our lives.
> 
> On a positive note, if I don't make it through this fall vacation AltaRed can start a thread explaining that active management, balancing, and diversification are the path to the highest returns with no push back.


 ... have fun and good luck with your trip(s)! So we're expecting this thread to go quiet at least for 2 months or whatever duration of your trip(s), correct?


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Here is some more conversation fuel... we are heading to Asia for 4 months after returning from Europe. The belly of the beast!
> 
> At some point, we are sure to be served COVID tainted egg roll and succumb to the disease while wearing cone shaped hats.


 ...oh btw, if you're really in Asia, don't expect an "egg" roll, tainted or not. That's a North American invention as with chop suey and fortune cookie. You've to be more adventurous than that o/w it's so boooring. Try the deep-fried bat (with lots of meat) or some exotic animal's offals instead.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Federal privacy commissioner investigating controversial ArriveCAN app - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada is investigating a complaint about the ArriveCAN app and how it collects and uses personal data.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


 ... haven't read the newspiece but that's a good idea. I'm sure ARRIVECAN can be extended/used to track terrorists and fugitives at the same time.


----------



## Beaver101

Number of Ontario hospital staff off work due to COVID nearly doubled since May



> _By Megan Ogilvie, Toronto Star, Sat., July 30, 2022
> 
> The number of Ontario hospital staff off work due to COVID-19 has nearly doubled since May, the first month the province started to track such absences during the pandemic.
> 
> Almost 4,800 hospital staff were off sick with the virus or had been recently exposed during the week of July 16 to 22, according to data provided to the Star from Ontario Health.
> 
> That’s up from 2,630 COVID absences during the week of May 21 to 27, an increase of 82 per cent.
> The swell of hospital workers off sick with COVID this summer has placed further stress on a health-care system that for months has struggled to maintain adequate staffing levels in many departments, including in ERs and intensive care units.
> 
> In recent weeks, a critical lack of staff has forced some hospitals to scale back services, relocate patients and temporarily close departments.
> 
> As of Friday, 10 emergency departments have had to temporarily close at some point due to a shortage of nurses, according to data from Ontario Health released exclusively to the Star. July is the first time the province has tracked ER closures due to nursing shortages, a spokesperson for Ontario Health said.
> 
> On Thursday, Lakeridge Health announced it had to close its Bowmanville Hospital intensive-care unit, moving critically ill patients to ICUs at its Ajax-Pickering and Oshawa sites. The statement from the Durham Region hospital system cited a “significant staff shortage” as the reason for the ICU closure.
> 
> Earlier this month, Halton Healthcare in the GTA notified residents it had to temporarily scale back treatment areas in its ERs because it could not safely staff the entire departments. In a statement to the Star at the time, a spokesperson for the three-hospital network said it was experiencing “a higher rate of staff and physician absences due to isolation requirements following COVID-19 exposure, along with higher than usual vacancy rates.”
> As well, an ER in Perth, southwest of Ottawa, closed for almost three weeks in July. Michael Cohen, president and CEO of the Perth and Smiths Falls District Hospital, at the time told the Star that staff calling in sick with COVID worsened an existing shortage, especially among nurses.
> 
> “That just tipped us over,” Cohen told the Star. “We were already in a very fragile staffing situation.”
> Ontario Health started to collect data on staff absences due to COVID at the end of May to track the impact on hospitals. In June, absences plateaued around 2,500 per week, then started to spike the first week of July. Some 4,787 staff were off work due to COVID the week of July 16 to 22.
> 
> Toronto’s University Health Network, which includes three large teaching hospitals, had 487 job postings in June, said Gillian Howard, vice-president of public affairs and communications, in a statement. She noted some of those postings were from May and that the hospital network hired 420 staff in June, adding that July numbers were not yet available.
> 
> On Thursday, 152 UHN staff members were off work due to COVID; of those, 122 tested positive, Howard said. During the previous week, more than 200 people were off work each day due to COVID “with the number of positives each day more than those returning,” she said, adding “we have seen that it is a bit better, but it is still difficult.”
> 
> Earlier this month, UHN’s Toronto Western Hospital needed to bring in staff, including medical residents and nursing students, from other departments to adequately staff ER weekend shifts.
> Howard said Friday that staffing is a day-by-day watch” but staff numbers for the August long weekend in UHN’s emergency departments so far “looked manageable.”
> 
> “COVID-19 affects the ability to staff in all hospitals, every day,” she said this week, adding that other factors are at play, including the need for hospital staff to take vacations after working for more than two years through the pandemic._


 ... so what happens to those patients in the areas impacted by the closure of their ERs? Are they sent home to writ in pain and/or go die? If so, then I hope the Ford government has enough funds for those upcoming lawsuits.


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> Quite a few of them can and have gotten it right by studying the data and using the scientific method.
> 
> 
> It might make sense for some of the COVIDphobes to get tested to see if their body has a strong immune response to COVID. In the UK, something like 99.7% of people have a level of protection from either an infection or vaccine. I expect Canada to be similar.
> 
> For those of us with some protection, the 1% death rate days are long over. COVID is a cold now. Like other colds, a handful of people will catch it and die but the odds of death are very, very, very low for those with immunity.
> 
> We have booked a cruise for this fall. We aren't 100% that we will go but I would say 60%. If we get COVID, it will be like a cold. The worst aspect will be having to pay for a quarantine hotel and meals at ridiculous rates. There is no fear of dying.
> 
> I have gotten a cold on most of our extended vacations. It's a reality of air travel but I've picked up colds outside of aircraft, as well. We aren't gambling with our lives.
> 
> On a positive note, if I don't make it through this fall vacation AltaRed can start a thread explaining that active management, balancing, and diversification are the path to the highest returns with no push back.


It's more manageable now but to call it merely a cold is not accurate either. People get much sicker from COVID than they tend to from a cold, and COVID fills our hospitals, even off-season for respiratory illness, in a way the cold does not.


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> It's more manageable now but to call it merely a cold is not accurate either. People get much sicker from COVID than they tend to from a cold, and COVID fills our hospitals, even off-season for respiratory illness, in a way the cold does not.


Those people are corner cases. They are about a thousand individuals in a sea of millions of infections.

I've had a runny nose twice in the last five months. There is a chance it was COVID, although I did not test so this is speculation. The difference between those runny nose conditions and a cold is I had to blow my nose once a day for two days. My wife has had the same symptoms and infections, whatever they were.

In January of this year, we had Omicron. It was the lightest dry cough I've ever experienced. If it was any more mild, it would have been asymptomatic. Everybody in the Mexican resort we were staying had the same symptoms. Three coughs per day.

So I would say not equivalent to a cold in that secondary COVID infections have been less severe than a cold for everyone I know.


----------



## TomB16

BTW, a UK study has determined that a large percentage of the population is urinating more frequently than normal. This is not a joke.

I too am urinating more than normal, although it is just occasional. There have been three or four evenings when I have had to whiz perhaps 6 times. I'm a male in my 50s but that's a lot, even for me.

There is no data connecting the urination to COVID. I mention it because of a potential connection.

Zoe data indicates the most common symptom of COVID is a sore throat.


----------



## kcowan

Friends were on an AMA Waterways cruise from Budapest to Amsterdam. Fellow travellers tested positive before boarding and ended up quarantined in a Budapest Hotel for 5 days missing the cruise. So Covid is having its impacts.


----------



## Birder

My friends (a couple in their 60s who are triple jabbed) just returned from a cruise from Amsterdam to Switzerland. They said they started coughing a lot while on the cruise and kept checking their temperatures but had no fever. Nevertheless, they got on the plane (masked of course) and when they got home, used their rapid tests and confirmed that they did in fact have covid. They were not asked to quarantine or get off the cruise. So they flew on a plane with covid, possibly exposing others, despite being vaccinated and using Arrivecan. Others who are not vaccinated and are NOT sick, cannot do so. No way is vaccination stopping any type of spread of covid - I don't buy it anymore.


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> Those people are corner cases. They are about a thousand individuals in a sea of millions of infections.
> 
> I've had a runny nose twice in the last five months. There is a chance it was COVID, although I did not test so this is speculation. The difference between those runny nose conditions and a cold is I had to blow my nose once a day for two days. My wife has had the same symptoms and infections, whatever they were.
> 
> In January of this year, we had Omicron. It was the lightest dry cough I've ever experienced. If it was any more mild, it would have been asymptomatic. Everybody in the Mexican resort we were staying had the same symptoms. Three coughs per day.
> 
> So I would say not equivalent to a cold in that secondary COVID infections have been less severe than a cold for everyone I know.


It may be that the traditional cold-like symptoms are not as severe (my case a few months ago backs this up) but there are many people presenting with long COVID still, which is not something we see with historical colds. The plural of anecdote is not anecdata.


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> It may be that the traditional cold-like symptoms are not as severe (my case a few months ago backs this up) but there are many people presenting with long COVID still, which is not something we see with historical colds. The plural of anecdote is n


This is possible but it is more likely we had COVID. In fact, many people who had "colds" are more likely to have had COVID.

There was a time, in 2021, colds were extremely rare. In April of this year when colds made a bit of return, data showed there was still twice as much COVID as there were colds. Because of this, when someone was sniffling in April, there was a 2:1 chance they had COVID.

Because of this, the most likely scenario is that we have had COVID a few times. Your scenario is also possible, but less likely.

Justifying a narrative through corner cases is a decidedly subjective pursuit.


----------



## andrewf

I think you misread what I wrote. I did not suggest you had a mundane cold, just that COVID often does not present with severe cold like symptoms. That doesn't make it benign.

Only 30% of people infected died of smallpox. Does that make it a corner case if you die?


----------



## sags

As of July 29, 2022.........Canada has lost 42.681 people to covid.





__





COVID-19 epidemiology update - Canada.ca


This summary of COVID-19 cases across Canada contains detailed data about the spread of the virus over time and in different regions of the country. Includes breakdowns by age and sex or gender. Provides an overview of testing, variants of concern, cases following vaccination and severe illness...




health-infobase.canada.ca


----------



## Beaver101

^ The freeDumbers and those screaming about infringement of "their me, myself, and I " rights along with the "illegal" "lockdowns" and choke-them-to-death restrictions DON'T give a fvck. According to them, it's what pandemic? Better yet, what's a pandemic?


----------



## Beaver101

Ontario hospital shutdowns lead to mounting calls for premier, minister of health to address

I guess she has to wait until father Ford comes back from his fishing trip at cottage country (whenever) before she  can display her competency by saying something. 

And where's the Moore-head in the meantime?


----------



## damian13ster

Not a surprise, but other than destroying children's livers, lockdowns had other detrimental effect:









Hate crime reports in Canada surged during COVID-19 pandemic: StatCan - National | Globalnews.ca


New data released by Statistics Canada on Tuesday showed that 3,360 hate crimes were reported by police last year, representing a 72 per cent jump over the last two years.




globalnews.ca


----------



## sags

More likely caused by the seepimg infiltration of alt right ideology into Canada.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> Not a surprise, but other than destroying children's livers, lockdowns had other detrimental effect:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hate crime reports in Canada surged during COVID-19 pandemic: StatCan - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> New data released by Statistics Canada on Tuesday showed that 3,360 hate crimes were reported by police last year, representing a 72 per cent jump over the last two years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


There are different theories as to what is causing the acute hepatitis in children. None of them are that they are caused by lockdowns.









What’s sending kids to hospitals with hepatitis—coronavirus, adenovirus, or both?


To guide treatment, researchers scramble for data on the cause of mystery liver disease




www.science.org


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> There are different theories as to what is causing the acute hepatitis in children. None of them are that they are caused by lockdowns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What’s sending kids to hospitals with hepatitis—coronavirus, adenovirus, or both?
> 
> 
> To guide treatment, researchers scramble for data on the cause of mystery liver disease
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org


Wrong, your article is outdated and now it is known what causes it. I posted it here. UK researchers attribute it directly to lockdowns. Scroll couple pages back if you are interested in verifying the source


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> Wrong, your article is outdated and now it is known what causes it. I posted it here. UK researchers attribute it directly to lockdowns. Scroll couple pages back if you are interested in verifying the source


Not really, but one group did bring it up as a hypothesis:








GENOMIC INVESTIGATIONS OF ACUTE HEPATITIS OF UNKNOWN AETIOLOGY IN CHILDREN


Since the first reports of hepatitis of unknown aetiology occurring in UK children, over 1000 cases have been reported worldwide, including 268 cases in the UK, with the majority younger than 6 years old. Using genomic, proteomic and immunohistochemical methods, we undertook extensive...




www.medrxiv.org





_With loss of child mixing during the COVID pandemic, reduced spread of common respiratory and enteric viral infections and no evidence of transmission of AAV2 infection in association with SARS-CoV-2, it is likely that immunity to both HAdV-F41 and AAV2 declined sharply in the age group affected by this unexplained hepatitis outbreak._

However, they also followed up with this:

_There are a number of limitations to our study. First, our numbers are small and the finding is of an association of AAV2 presence and high viral levels with the unexplained paediatric hepatitis cases. While there is strong circumstantial evidence, we cannot establish causality with the data we have. AAV2 could be a bystander or a marker of co-infection with HAdV-F41s or even HHV-6B. Against this explanation is the association of high levels of AAV2 with cases of unexplained hepatitis and the much less frequent and statistically lower levels of AAV2 in all controls including those with hepatitis of known aetiology, even when infected with HAdV or even HHV-6 helper viruses. The relevance of this finding together with the potential contribution of AAV2 to this outbreak of unexplained hepatitis need further testing in properly controlled studies. Second, due to the low viral titres of adenovirus in whole blood and other specimens from the cases, only one full HAdV genome could be sequenced from the stool of a case. While this cannot completely exclude the emergence of a new HAdV-F41 as the cause of this outbreak, the clustering of this sequence with other UK HAdV-F41 sequences and the partial whole blood AdF41 sequences from cases, reduce the likelihood. Third, our data alone are not sufficient to rule out an effect of SARS-CoV-2 Omicron, the appearance of which preceded the outbreak of unexplained hepatitis and this will need to wait for results from large case-controlled studies such as the one underway led by UKHSA. Fourth, while we postulate that changes in the epidemiology of infections in children during the pandemic may have altered patterns of AAV2 and HAdV infection and disease, further data, with wider testing of other cohorts and seroepidemiological studies of AAV2 in cases and controls are needed to support this._

Summary: they found the presence of AAV2 and HAdV-F41 infection in the children, but can't concretely say that the combined infection is what caused the hepatitis. And that their hypothesis about lack of children mixing needs more research to prove it.

So no, they didn't attribute it directly to lockdown. They just raised it as a possibility, just like they raised the fact that it could also be an effect of the Omicron wave that preceded this unexplained hepatitis.

As for the other group: Adeno-associated virus 2 infection in children with non-A-E hepatitis
They said nothing about lockdowns.

Too bad these are all pre-print articles and haven't been peer-reviewed yet. In fact, the site has this disclaimer:
_Caution: Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information._


----------



## sags

Covid, monkey pox, smallpox, and now polio found in US wastewater sample has scientists considering if there is some connection to climate change.

Maybe add hepatitis to the list.

Scientists have long predicted there would be a lot of negative effects from climate change that haven’t been fully researched, including the release of deadly pathogens and methane from the thawing tundra.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> More likely caused by the seepimg infiltration of alt right ideology into Canada.


 ... most definitely the spinned BSs. If not that, then it's the head in the sand or the fake blindness and deafness techniques.


----------



## Beaver101

Toronto General Hospital under critical care bed alert amid staff shortages

I wonder if that Jones broad sleep well at night these days? Probably like a dead log, if not a rock.


----------



## Beaver101

‘We've got to find ways to keep them’: CEO of Ontario lab workers assoc. says members are experiencing burnout


----------



## Beaver101

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/ontario-doug-ford-hospital-staffing-crisis-emergency-152519902.html

*



'Rename it Doug Ford Urgent Don't Care': Ontario medical workers, residents furious as healthcare crisis spreads

Click to expand...

*


> Elisabetta Bianchini ,Thu, August 4, 2022


 ... aptly named. And this is only the "beginning" ... of his second term.


----------



## sags

> _Using real numbers, hospital cost/12h shift (11.25h paid):
> 
> Agency RN 5y experience = $110+HST x 11.25= $1398
> 
> Full-time RN 5y experience = $40.59 x 11.25= $456
> 
> Difference = $942/shift
> 
> There is money in the system.
> 
> Pay full-time nurses more and use private agencies less._ https://t.co/dTeL91mMp6
> — Michael Warner (@drmwarner) August 3, 2022


----------



## sags

Ford has done a great job on attracting manufacturing into Ontario, particularly in the auto industry.....but his handling of healthcare is abysmal.

He really seems to have blind spots on healthcare and LTC homes, for some reason.

Maybe he has been listening to the Mike Harris and his "create a crisis in healthcare so we can push for private healthcare" plan.


----------



## sags

Everybody: Ontario hospitals and the province’s healthcare system are in crisis. 

Doug Ford: Folks, we’re training more autoworkers!


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> Maybe he has been listening to the Mike Harris and his "create a crisis in healthcare so we can push for private healthcare" plan.


That's probably what's needed because the present model is not working and no amount of money thrown at it will change that. Some form of public/private partnership would relieve a lot of the problems.

ltr


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Everybody: Ontario hospitals and the province’s healthcare system are in crisis.
> 
> Doug Ford: Folks, we’re training more autoworkers!


 ... I can't wait to see how his 2nd term ends -* NOT WELL *for sure.

And Ontario better not be accepting any out of province patients Covid or not!!!!!


----------



## Beaver101

like_to_retire said:


> That's probably what's needed because the present model is not working and no amount of money thrown at it will change that. Some form of public/private partnership would relieve a lot of the problems.
> 
> ltr


 ... so how are you going to split up the medical pool (ie. doctors, surgeons, nurses, lab workers, etc.) in a "public/private" partnership? So as an example, a top surgeon working in a public hospital gets paid "extra" by going to a "private" clinic gives "superior" skills on working/saving the patient there whereas when he/she is in a "public" funded hospital, there's nothing more that can be done for the patient. Better yet, send him/her home to die. 

Right now, for one the healthcare insurance premiums is skewed with the cap. If you're making a $1M salary, surely you can afford to pay more than the $900 annual threshold. In fact, you can jetson over to the USA to get "immediate" treatment instead of waiting a day or 2 in an Ontario ER hallway just to see a doc..


----------



## like_to_retire

Beaver101 said:


> In fact, you can jetson over to the USA to get "immediate" treatment instead of waiting a day or 2 in an Ontario ER hallway just to see a doc..


Yep, and that pretty well reveals the difference between our public system and their private system. Here, you can die in a hallway waiting and there your private insurance pays for a doctor when you need one.

ltr


----------



## Beaver101

like_to_retire said:


> Yep, and that pretty well reveals the difference between our public system and their private system. Here, you can die in a hallway waiting and there your private insurance pays for a doctor when you need one.
> 
> ltr


 ... so does it not make sense the "rich" go get their own "private" coverage whilst the rest of us poor wait on the gurney for treatment if not die off? Ie. let the rich opt out of the "public" health systems.


----------



## damian13ster

Global hunger has increased massively, from 135 million people acutely food insecure in 2019 to 345 million in 2022, according to the World Food Programme (WFP).


I guess the fact that lockdowns destroyed kids livers is less of a problem now that they also removed 'digestion' from liver's function for hundreds of millions


----------



## kcowan

Beaver101 said:


> ... so does it not make sense the "rich" go get their own "private" coverage whilst the rest of us poor wait on the gurney for treatment if not die off? Ie. let the rich opt out of the "public" health systems.


We already can. Have you heard of Telus Health? $4800/yr for queue jumping.


----------



## Beaver101

kcowan said:


> We already can. Have you heard of Telus Health? $4800/yr for queue jumping.


 ...queue jumping to where - to the public hospitals? Or to a private surgical clinic? If it's the latter, than it's REALLY cheap even for a ingrown toe nail procedure - in the USA of course.

Btw, it doesn't require $4800 to "jump the queue" in the public health systems - been happening "decades" ago for next to "free" (only paying into OHIP).

As I recall (and very clearly), the "CEO" of one of the company I used to work for went onto "announce" in the AGM of being the "first" in line (if not getting first rate) "surgical" treatment from a major (public) TO hospital when he had his first heart palpitation. Yeah, he got a "by-pass" the "next day" while friends that I know were "lucky" enough to be on the 6 months, if not more, "waiting list" to see the specialist. Did I see his name on the even (at the lowest level donor list) at the hospital for that "first rate" service? No. Btw, his annual salary was $2M at that time. $4,800 annual fee for jumping the queue is a drop in the bucket for these real al cheapos. Rich in the mouth but cheapest in the pockets.


----------



## TomB16

Now that we are 2.25 years into COVID, has anyone changed their point of view regarding governmental response, shutting down the economy, etc?

I feel the response was about right. Requiring vaccination for employment and apartment leases is a step too far. I'm glad the courts came down on the right side of that issue.

As an apartment block owner, I am conflicted because I'd like to be able to do whatever I want but I also know what apartment operators are like. Few have much respect at all for the people who make a home in their operation.

In some ways, I feel that it was duplicitous to pretend vaccination was optional when it was not.

Meanwhile, a substantial portion of the US ignored COVID. From what I can tell, they were not and are not medically worse off for keeping their economies operating.

It would be difficult to differentiate between the elevated death rate caused by comorbidities and elevated death rate caused by COVID parties. So, I could be wrong on this but I think the US could not have done much better. The folks who got vaccinated were reasonably safe.


----------



## Money172375

TomB16 said:


> Now that we are 2.25 years into COVID, has anyone changed their point of view regarding governmental response, shutting down the economy, etc?
> 
> I feel the response was about right. Requiring vaccination for employment and apartment leases is a step too far. I'm glad the courts came down on the right side of that issue.
> 
> As an apartment block owner, I am conflicted because I'd like to be able to do whatever I want but I also know what apartment operators are like. Few have much respect at all for the people who make a home in their operation.
> 
> In some ways, I feel that it was duplicitous to pretend vaccination was optional when it was not.
> 
> Meanwhile, a substantial portion of the US ignored COVID. From what I can tell, they were not and are not medically worse off for keeping their economies operating.
> 
> It would be difficult to differentiate between the elevated death rate caused by comorbidities and elevated death rate caused by COVID parties. So, I could be wrong on this but I think the US could not have done much better. The folks who got vaccinated were reasonably safe.


The US death rates would indicate That they were and are worse off keeping their economies open.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Stats of death, infection rates, etc. are meaningless in the USA when the number 1 priority there is of a MAGA mentality, applicable to the slaves of course. It would not surprise me that the USA will come out ahead of any pandemic for the most deaths in the world (aka most diseased country *) ... next comes monkeypox and god knows what else. Regardless, not visiting it anytime soon even it's a hop over us Canada.

* Almost forgot - that's the pride of being a "world class" country. Maybe world class needs a new definition.


----------



## damian13ster

Money172375 said:


> The US death rates would indicate That they were and are worse off keeping their economies open.
> View attachment 23527


And the metastudy of over 150 countries that was posted here multiple times, including recently, has shown that shutting down economy had little to no effect on death rate.

But sure, go ahead with your single data point


----------



## TomB16

Has anyone else noticed that BA.5, a wildly contagious variant that can infect anyone regardless of vaccination or previous infection, has been circulating the biosphere for 6 months with no follow on variant? I do not think this is a coincidence.


----------



## Beaver101

Health Canada warns of fake COVID rapid test kits after several were sold in Ontario

Not sure if this is happening elsewhere outside of Ontario but there're fake Covid RATs (rapid tests). Details (and how to identify the real kit versus the fakies) are within the link itself.


----------



## kcowan

Shutting down the economy was a sledge hammer. I think it made sense the first time until we got our late vaccines. But at New Year's, it was abuse of business by an arrogant government.


----------



## Beaver101

Emergency department in southwestern Ontario temporarily closing this weekend due to staffing shortage

I bet the ER services down in Mexico are better than those in Ontario.


----------



## Money172375

maybe they should bring back some of this for the coughing COVID sufferers.


----------



## james4beach

I noticed something that people do with coughing and sneezing. They first remove their mask, sneeze or cough out into the open, then put their masks back on.

Wouldn't want to get the mask dirty!! lol

Just saw a kid do this in a crowded breakfast buffet at a hotel. The kid took their mask off and sneezed all over the toast area. I abandoned my toast and got the hell out of there.

I've seen adults do the same on airplanes (take the mask off, cough, mask back on) so it's not just kids.


----------



## Beaver101

^ At least the runny nose and snots stay where they are in the first place after they put on their mask. As for spreading their germs, that's not new as who cares about everybody else. I bet they didn't even wash bother washing their hands prior to eating so I don't blame you for abandoning your toast and getting out of there. I would have lost my appetite seeing that. EEEEWWWW!!!!!


----------



## Beaver101

Ontario ER closures not unprecedented, health minister says

She can come up with a million excuses but the questions remains "WHAT IS SHE PLANNING TO DO ABOUT IT?". Is she not the Health Minister or just a mouthpiece?


----------



## Beaver101

https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-hospitals-plan-to-uphold-covid-19-vaccine-policies-amid-crisis-staffing-shortage


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> I noticed something that people do with coughing and sneezing. They first remove their mask, sneeze or cough out into the open, then put their masks back on.


I've seen this countless times. lol!


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> She can come up with a million excuses but the questions remains "WHAT IS SHE PLANNING TO DO ABOUT IT?". Is she not the Health Minister or just a mouthpiece?


What do you suggest? Perhaps they could staff up with Kelly Temporary workers?


----------



## KaeJS

There's been 68 new pages since I've visited this thread.

Is COVID still a thing?


----------



## damian13ster

TomB16 said:


> I've seen this countless times. lol!


Well yeah, if you have to wear a mask for hours it is gross to sneeze in it  
humans will be humans


----------



## damian13ster

Obesity and COVID-19 in Children and Adolescents: Reciprocal Detrimental Influence—Systematic Literature Review and Meta-Analysis


The dramatic lifestyle changes forced by COVID-19-related lockdown promoted weight gain, with a stronger impact on obese subjects, at higher risk of severe infection. The PubMed database was searched to identify original studies assessing: (1) the extent ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> What do you suggest? Perhaps they could staff up with Kelly Temporary workers?


 ... why do I have to suggest anything when she's getting *paid *to do the job?!!!!

She can always run to her boss for ideas ... LMAO.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Obesity and COVID-19 in Children and Adolescents: Reciprocal Detrimental Influence—Systematic Literature Review and Meta-Analysis
> 
> 
> The dramatic lifestyle changes forced by COVID-19-related lockdown promoted weight gain, with a stronger impact on obese subjects, at higher risk of severe infection. The PubMed database was searched to identify original studies assessing: (1) the extent ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## damian13ster

Opinion: The ArriveCAN app needs to go


The government’s justifications for mandatory use of the app are increasingly tenuous and set a worrying precedent




www.theglobeandmail.com





"Which brings us to another problem: The government’s decision to designate parts of ArriveCAN as a trade secret and bar the app’s source code from disclosure. Aside from the fact it was designed with five private companies – including one consisting of no more than four employees that was awarded a non-competitive contract valued at $14-million – Canadians know almost nothing about how it was made or how it works. "


----------



## Beaver101

^ So what are you going to do about it? 

Protest ... in front of .... Customs/Border/Immigration Canada? Trudeau's office? I think both offices would dare / welcome you.

Better yet, quit travelling? Duh.


----------



## TomB16

Malaysia customs has now dropped both COVID vaccination and testing or even declaration from their entry requirements. This seems like a good move to me.

Apparently, cruise lines also want to drop COVID vaccination and testing requirements. This seems foolish to me. As far as I know, COVID vaccination and/or testing remains in place for the cruise industry at this time.


----------



## damian13ster

Experts warn ArriveCAN app could be violating constitutionally protected rights - National | Globalnews.ca


A recent glitch in ArriveCAN that ordered more than 10,000 people to quarantine may have violated Canadians' fundamental rights, experts warn.




globalnews.ca





'Constitutionally protected rights' and 'Canada' are a oxymoron, but still......


----------



## Beaver101

^ Yep, you're still living here. Why's that? Whine, whine, whine ...


----------



## KaeJS

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Yep, you're still living here. Why's that? Whine, whine, whine ...


You make it seem so easy to just leave.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Yep, you're still living here. Why's that? Whine, whine, whine ...


If I left Canada, I would miss you, Beaver. I've gotten used to you gnawing on my leg like a dog chewing a slipper.


----------



## damian13ster

TomB16 said:


> If I left Canada, I would miss you, Beaver. I've gotten used to you gnawing on my leg like a dog chewing a slipper.


I am surprised there are still people who don't have Beaver on ignore tbh.
Don't mind disagreements and discourse at all - hell, welcome it. If there is zero sign of intelligent life or knowledge though - what's the point?


----------



## damian13ster

LILLEY: Court records show Trudeau brought in vaccine mandates for travel purely based on politics


His government says they make policy based off of the best evidence and science. The court record shows otherwise.




torontosun.com






This is pretty damning considering this is Charter violation


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> This is pretty damning considering this is Charter violation


You need to get your information from better sources. You linked to a tabloid article, and that tabloid also references other wacky and unreliable web sites, so none of that is trustworthy.

Here's a National Post article talking about the same thing. The National Post is a reliable newspaper.

Contrary to what your tabloids are spinning, the National Post discusses the court proceedings: the vaccination requirement was a grey area (not based on a clear scientific recommendation), but appears to have been the result of scientific beliefs of the PHAC.

There's nothing in this article saying it was purely political or not based on scientific thinking. There certainly was some expert opinion behind these guidelines, as the article describes.

Here's the National Post article

*Vaccine rules lifted for some travellers over others, new evidence shows*
Tyler Dawson
Publishing date:Aug 08, 2022

​In the first five months that unvaccinated Canadians were banned by the federal government from boarding planes and trains, rail operators and airlines granted roughly 1,700 exemptions to allow the unvaccinated to travel.​​The information is contained in a government affidavit, filed in response to two lawsuits against the federal government’s travel vaccination mandates, announced in the lead-up to the 2021 election and brought into effect on Oct. 30, 2021.​​The lawsuit was launched by Karl Harrison and Shaun Rickard. It was joined with another suit launched by People’s Party of Canada Leader Maxime Bernier, former Newfoundland premier Brian Peckford, and others. All challenge the constitutionality of the travel mandates, arguing they infringe upon charter rights to mobility, life, liberty and security of the person and equality rights.​​Yet, when the travel mandate came into effect last October, the government ensured there were exemptions so that travellers could move around the country, including for those who live in remote communities.​​[ snipped out details of exemptions ]​​In addition to revealing new information about the extent of the exemption programs, the lawsuit has become a focal point for those debating the science behind the implementation of vaccination requirements for travel.​​Transport Canada did not respond to the National Post’s request for comment on Sunday.​​First reported by National Post columnist Rupa Subramanya in an American newsletter, the court documents show extensive cross-examination of government bureaucrats on the scientific backing of the Liberal government’s COVID-19 decision-making, particularly regarding the decision to implement travel mandates.​​Lawyers for the plaintiffs grilled public servants about the evidence that existed in support of the travel vaccine mandate. In November 2021, the court heard, an evidence brief on in-flight transmission from the Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC) did not include a recommendation to introduce a travel vaccine mandate.​​“As a strategy as a whole, it has not been evaluated in the literature and therefore is not elaborated in the review,” said Lisa Waddell, an epidemiologist who heads a PHAC team that was evaluating COVID-19 research. (Still, Waddell’s affidavit included a research paper that suggested vaccinated air travellers were better protected aboard planes than the unvaccinated.)​​Jennifer Little, the head of Transport Canada’s COVID Recovery Team, which supported the development of COVID-19 policy within the government department, told the court she did not recall a specific recommendation to Transport Canada that there be a vaccine mandate instituted, but that there was “considerable testing evidence” from the Public Health Agency of Canada “that showed that vaccination would be effective in preventing the spread on aircraft.”​​“I don’t remember seeing anything in writing with the recommendation, but certainly there were discussions that led to a decision and an announcement and then the further elaboration of the policy,” Little said.​​


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> If there is zero sign of intelligent life or knowledge though - what's the point?


Irony...
blasting someone for not being intelligent, and then in the very next post, linking to a junky tabloid article that's designed to spin up emotional reactions from dumb and uneducated people.

You've linked to quite a few junky / tabloid / unreliable sources in your time here. Intelligent people don't get their information from these kinds of sources.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> Irony...
> blasting someone for not being intelligent, and then in the very next post, linking to a junky tabloid article that's designed to spin up emotional reactions from dumb and uneducated people.
> 
> You've linked to quite a few junky / tabloid / unreliable sources in your time here. Intelligent people don't get their information from these kinds of sources.


The article provides link to court documents. There you can verify any information you would like.
But I guess you just looked at a title an not actual content?
or do you think the tabloid fabricated the court documents?


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> I am surprised there are still people who don't have Beaver on ignore tbh.
> Don't mind disagreements and discourse at all - hell, welcome it. If there is zero sign of intelligent life or knowledge though - what's the point?


 ... no stopping you or anyone else for that matter.

And "tbh" there're some "nuts" on this forum who puts me on ignore - on and off. Why's that? The implosions there are just so entertaining ... LMAO.


----------



## Beaver101

KaeJS said:


> You make it seem so easy to just leave.


 ... and so it's easier to just whine, whine, whine .... and spew falsehoods, accusations and lies on this forum? Hey, I get it.


----------



## TomB16

The most common BA.5 symptom right now is a sore throat. If you have a sore throat, you probably have COVID.

The second most common symptom is headache. We need further study to determine what ratio of people with this symptom were triggered by a COVID infection and what portion are conversing with Beaver101 on CanadianMoneyForum.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Come on TomB16, you can't withstand a mere headache. Care for a migraine instead?


----------



## Beaver101

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/more-firings-top-brunswick-health-175528627.html

Haven't read into the nitty-gritty of the sackings but we (Ontario) can surely make use of this ... but then Ford is too bock, bock, bock ... aka clucking noise.


----------



## TomB16

I love tilting with you, Beaver. You're a fun guy to hang out with online. Thanks for being cool, my friend.


----------



## londoncalling

Brother in Law tested positive this week. He was one of our guests for a family BBQ on Sunday and tested positive yesterday. His symptoms are mild and thus far our household has tested negative. Almost the entire event was spent outside but we definitely were within 6'0" of each other the majority of the time. For what it's worth we will continue testing over the next few days.


----------



## sags

The biggest problem right now is staffing in the retirement home where my wife works.

They have covid running rampant and although it isn't sending people to hospital in droves, it does mean the staff have to "gown up" to visit their rooms.

They could sure use some staffing help from people who don't think covid is a big deal anymore. The staff could use some time off work.

My wife also has to get the full covid test tested almost every day, as the infected come into constant contact with everyone else.

It is going round and round and round. Some of the residents are on their 2nd recent infection.

Right now I think we are flying a holding pattern waiting for the mutation that will knock us out of the sky.


----------



## TomB16

londoncalling said:


> Brother in Law tested positive this week. He was one of our guests for a family BBQ on Sunday and tested positive yesterday. His symptoms are mild and thus far our household has tested negative. Almost the entire event was spent outside but we definitely were within 6'0" of each other the majority of the time. For what it's worth we will continue testing over the next few days.



We are all going to get BA.5. Most of us have already had it. Not much your brother in law, or any of us, can do about it. Our very best efforts will delay it a bit.


----------



## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> Brother in Law tested positive this week. He was one of our guests for a family BBQ on Sunday and tested positive yesterday.


Well that's 6 days ago, right? If none of you have symptoms by now, I'd think you didn't catch anything from him.

An outdoor BBQ seems like a reasonable risk. I recently went to an outdoor birthday party/gathering and I don't think you can do any better than the outdoors, with all that air flow.

One area I'm continuing to be careful is with contact with hands. People are back to shaking hands and touching the same objects. People also love to scratch and pick their noses with their bare hands, easily contaminating their hands before they touch others. So I keep a close eye on what I'm touching, what others are touching, and use hand sanitizer when in doubt.

These are good habits which should reduce all kinds of colds & flus, any time of year.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> The biggest problem right now is staffing in the retirement home where my wife works.
> 
> They have covid running rampant and although it isn't sending people to hospital in droves, it does mean the staff have to "gown up" to visit their rooms.
> 
> They could sure use some staffing help from people who don't think covid is a big deal anymore. The staff could use some time off work.
> 
> My wife also has to get the full covid test tested almost every day, as the infected come into constant contact with everyone else.
> 
> It is going round and round and round. Some of the residents are on their 2nd recent infection.
> 
> Right now I think we are flying a holding pattern waiting for the mutation that will knock us out of the sky.


 ... I wonder if the headhonchos of those LTCs have elderly parents? If so, where do they live? For one, has the A/C problem been fixed there yet? I mean everyone (staff, resident except for the executives), et al) will be cooked off before Covid hits them if the A/C ain't fixed.


----------



## TomB16

Zoe Data shows symptomatic cases in the UK is way down. UK COVID death rate remains relative low considering the high level of infection.


----------



## londoncalling

james4beach said:


> Well that's 6 days ago, right? If none of you have symptoms by now, I'd think you didn't catch anything from him.
> 
> An outdoor BBQ seems like a reasonable risk. I recently went to an outdoor birthday party/gathering and I don't think you can do any better than the outdoors, with all that air flow.
> 
> One area I'm continuing to be careful is with contact with hands. People are back to shaking hands and touching the same objects. People also love to scratch and pick their noses with their bare hands, easily contaminating their hands before they touch others. So I keep a close eye on what I'm touching, what others are touching, and use hand sanitizer when in doubt.
> 
> These are good habits which should reduce all kinds of colds & flus, any time of year.


I have noticed a return to handshakes as well. I would advise not picking others' noses barehanded or otherwise.  never used hand sanitizer pre pandemic (use it now) but am a firm believer in proper handwashing. I have even noticed that handwashing in public restrooms is on the decline. Kid was not feeling well today. Tested negative and would chalk it up to hunger/dehydration. Likely we are in the clear.


----------



## andrewf

When people offer to shake your hand, just tell them you might have monkeypox.


----------



## zinfit

TomB16 said:


> We are all going to get BA.5. Most of us have already had it. Not much your brother in law, or any of us, can do about it. Our very best efforts will delay it a bit.


He might have had covid prior to this outdoor event. I am 76 and had covid in April. I know of a couple of dozen other people in my age group who had this year as well. The common denominator is they all recovered and had mild cold like symptoms . I thing it is time we all moved on. I would be far more concerned about a comeback for polio .


----------



## TomB16

zinfit said:


> He might have had covid prior to this outdoor event. I am 76 and had covid in April. I know of a couple of dozen other people in my age group who had this year as well. The common denominator is they all recovered and had mild cold like symptoms . I thing it is time we all moved on. I would be far more concerned about a comeback for polio .


I'm glad you are OK, zinfit. 

When did you take the vaccine booster?


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> I thing it is time we all moved on


Moving on isn't a "state of mind", it's about the load on the hospital system. This has always been about the load on the healthcare system.

Hospitalization levels (US chart shown below) look OK and stable right now. If they don't rise exponentially like before, I think we'll be ok -- and that's what I hope happens -- but it's too early to tell. Soon we'll enter fall and winter, where people tend to be more susceptible to illness, schools and offices are full of people, colds & flu circulate more aggressively.

The criteria I'm watching for is: can we go 12 months without seeing any new exponential spikes? Then I'd call it "done".

Currently we are only 6 months since an exponential spike.


----------



## damian13ster

If you use '12 month period without exponential spike' then you need to panic all the time every single year due to common cold and flu


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> If you use '12 month period without exponential spike' then you need to panic all the time every single year due to common cold and flu


The common cold and flu don't overwhelm the hospital systems and force rationing of health care.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> The common cold and flu don't overwhelm the hospital systems and force rationing of health care.


Of course they do. Flu does that pretty much every single year. You make it sound like there were no lines in health care system, that emergency rooms weren't triaging people and having them wait for hours if not days to receive help. All of those things were happening prior to 2020.
Just look at historical hospitalization numbers
Canadian health care system is atrocious, it has been pre-covid, and it is post-covid


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> Flu does that pretty much every single year.


COVID lands far more people in the hospital than the flu. The numbers aren't comparable. At least as of a month ago, we still had tons of hospital workers out sick with COVID, staff shortages due to this.

Let's hope that the latest COVID variants are mild enough to bring hospitalization and death numbers down to more like the flu. Maybe that will happen, but it has not been the case so far. It's also circulating, and killing, people in the middle of summer!


----------



## londoncalling

I would say the risk of serious harm is greater in our daily commutes than Covid-19 currently.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Moving on isn't a "state of mind", it's about the load on the hospital system. This has always been about the load on the healthcare system.


James, I am trying to find a way to disagree with you on both statements while continuing to show you the respect you deserve.

Do you recall how hysterical people were about HIV in the 1980s? It's still around. At some point, we had to remove HIV from global emergency status and insert it into the healthcare agenda with a bit of infrastructure and resource to support those who have it.

We still have a ton of people engaging in high risk activity and getting HIV. In fact, there is an epidemic of HIV in my province. It is one specific community that dominates the numbers but it is here. Those who have it rarely adhere to the treatment. This, despite everything we know about prevention, dangerous behaviours, and treatment.

COVID has gone through a similar trajectory. In the beginning it was a mysterious illness that killed roughly 1% of those infected. Very scary. Now, it is better understood and death rates are no where near the original numbers. Anyone who has had exposure to the virus or exposure to a vaccine within 22 weeks has a massively reduced chance of a severe infection or death.

At this point, a few people remain scared and fixated on COVID. You can see it in this thread. The risk is understood and managed. It's time for us to live with it. Shutting down the economy again is not the way forward.

Like HIV, I'm sure a few will ignore any data or behavioural recommendations and contract COVID. An extremely small percentage of those who get it will continue to die. As usual, society will try to save people from themselves and society will fail.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> At this point, a few people remain scared and fixated on COVID. You can see it in this thread. The risk is understood and manage


Everyone wants it to be over, but the problem is that it still sends a lot of people to the hospital.

What happens when you have a heart attack, stroke, or other medical emergency? How are you going to get seen at the hospital if the system is busy handling COVID cases? I'm sure you wouldn't be pleased if your [suspected] heart attack didn't get the appropriate attention because of a whole bunch of COVID patients.

We luckily don't have this problem today but we were pretty close to it in the spring and there's still this danger this upcoming winter.

I'm not sure why you're posting about people being "scared" or hung up on COVID. This isn't a question of being scared, it's a question of bottlenecks in the healthcare system and hospitals.


----------



## sags

Time will tell the story.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Everyone wants it to be over, but the problem is that it still sends a lot of people to the hospital.
> 
> What happens when you have a heart attack, stroke, or other medical emergency? How are you going to get seen at the hospital if the system is busy handling COVID cases? I'm sure you wouldn't be pleased if your [suspected] heart attack didn't get the appropriate attention because of a whole bunch of COVID patients.
> 
> We luckily don't have this problem today but we were pretty close to it in the spring and there's still this danger this upcoming winter.
> 
> I'm not sure why you're posting about people being "scared" or hung up on COVID. This isn't a question of being scared, it's a question of bottlenecks in the healthcare system and hospitals.


 ... until the Covid naysayer lands in the ER in need of treatment he will realize it's best NOT to catch Covid. You'll be definitely be swabbed to be ensured Covid-free PRIOR to "real" treatment like surgery, ventilation, etc. Of course, if they have to zap you with a defribrillator right there and then, it wouldn't make a difference if you're Covid free or not.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> James, I am trying to find a way to disagree with you on both statements while continuing to show you the respect you deserve.
> 
> Do you recall how hysterical people were about HIV in the 1980s? It's still around. At some point, we had to remove HIV from global emergency status and insert it into the healthcare agenda with a bit of infrastructure and resource to support those who have it.
> 
> We still have a ton of people engaging in high risk activity and getting HIV. In fact, there is an epidemic of HIV in my province. It is one specific community that dominates the numbers but it is here. Those who have it rarely adhere to the treatment. This, despite everything we know about prevention, dangerous behaviours, and treatment.
> 
> COVID has gone through a similar trajectory. In the beginning it was a mysterious illness that killed roughly 1% of those infected. Very scary. Now, it is better understood and death rates are no where near the original numbers. Anyone who has had exposure to the virus or exposure to a vaccine within 22 weeks has a massively reduced chance of a severe infection or death.
> 
> At this point, a few people remain scared and fixated on COVID. You can see it in this thread. The risk is understood and managed. It's time for us to live with it. Shutting down the economy again is not the way forward.
> 
> Like HIV, I'm sure a few will ignore any data or behavioural recommendations and contract COVID. An extremely small percentage of those who get it will continue to die. As usual, society will try to save people from themselves and society will fail.


 ... non comparable diseases Covid versus HIV. Why don't you use the current monkeypox instead as both are in the same league and I don't mean pertaining to a certain segment of society based on "risky behaviours". 

Covid is close to being an air-borne disease which can impact virtually "anyone" who is 'breathing" the air we or all animal "shares" whereas HIV/monkeypox (or even chickenpox) would primarily require skin contact of which we all don't necessarily "share". 

So for those who don't want to wash their hands after using the toilet or can't be bother with this chore prior to eating, I say by all means. Afterall those diseases are free for taking. EEEEWWWWW!!!!


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Everyone wants it to be over, but the problem is that it still sends a lot of people to the hospital.


It is over, my hypochondriac friend. We continue to have a high level of infections, a medium level of hospitalizations, and a low level of death.

What's more, there is currently no follow on to BA.5 and it's been over 6 months. It seems likely there will be another wave but right now we will have to fabricate a high level of drama because things aren't all that bad in base reality.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> It is over, my hypochondriac friend. We continue to have a high level of infections, a medium level of hospitalizations, and a low level of death.


Hardly a hypochondriac. I was flying around the country in 2020 while most people locked themselves indoors. I've been seeing people and travelling through the whole pandemic -- but I do it carefully. I even moved between cities in 2020.

You must not have paid much attention to Ontario and Quebec news. The hospitals were still close to being overloaded a couple months ago. There's only so much staff to handle everyone's problems and many of them have been out sick with COVID too.

Think about what happens if you ever get in a car accident, or have a severe infection and need hospital care.


----------



## londoncalling

Hospitals have been overloaded since before Covid. The pandemic exacerbated the situation and created even more backlogs and wait times. The real problems with Canadian healthcare were just brought into the spotlight. Similar to housing, thrive on creating shortages of medical professionals. The pandemic put a lot of strain on everyone. Medical professionals and those in the healthcare industry included. People have left their current jobs across different occupations across the board. Unfortunately, some of these jobs require training and expertise to backfill. It doesn't help that the feds and provinces are too busy throwing mud at eachother instead of working to find a solution for the voting taxpayer.


----------



## andrewf

I suspect we


londoncalling said:


> Hospitals have been overloaded since before Covid. The pandemic exacerbated the situation and created even more backlogs and wait times. The real problems with Canadian healthcare were just brought into the spotlight. Similar to housing, thrive on creating shortages of medical professionals. The pandemic put a lot of strain on everyone. Medical professionals and those in the healthcare industry included. People have left their current jobs across different occupations across the board. Unfortunately, some of these jobs require training and expertise to backfill. It doesn't help that the feds and provinces are too busy throwing mud at eachother instead of working to find a solution for the voting taxpayer.


I think you'll find that it wasn't just the Canadian health care system that struggled with COVID. To make COVID capacity challenges a unique indictment of the Canadian health care system is not really an argument that stands up to more than cursory evaluation.


----------



## Beaver101

londoncalling said:


> Hospitals have been overloaded since before Covid. The pandemic exacerbated the situation and created even more backlogs and wait times. The real problems with Canadian healthcare were just brought into the spotlight. Similar to housing, thrive on creating shortages of medical professionals. The pandemic put a lot of strain on everyone. Medical professionals and those in the healthcare industry included. People have left their current jobs across different occupations across the board. Unfortunately, some of these jobs require training and expertise to backfill. It doesn't help that the feds and provinces are too busy throwing mud at eachother instead of working to find a solution for the voting taxpayer.


 ... and so? The politicians continue to pick their noses? Are they humans or not?


----------



## sags

The UK regulator approves the Moderna dual booster. It will be available for people over 50 in the fall.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/uk-approval-dual-covid-vaccine-1.6551316


----------



## TomB16

londoncalling said:


> Hospitals have been overloaded since before Covid.


Imagine how much lower our tax bills would be, and how much better our healthcare would be, if we didn't socialize the destructive cost of drugs and alchohol. Even just smoking is estimated to cost taxpayers $16B annually in the form of healthcare. Those payments are not as smooth and satisfying as I would prefer.

I don't want to leave people for dead but surely, at some level, the cost of saving people from their horrendous decisions will become too much of a burden.


----------



## sags

Emergency treatment is the tip of the spear, but there are big problems throughout the healthcare system due to lack of funding by the Provinces.

Our son is still waiting (almost 2 years now) just to see the surgeon to see IF he can be fixed with surgery. (severe back disk displacement pushing on 2 spinal nerves)

IF the surgeon recommends surgery, it will be another year or two wait for the surgery.

Our family doctor is completely frustrated. There is no point in her seeing patients, referring them to specialists or diagnostics that never happen. She is winding down her practice. She is now in the office only a couple days a week and takes turns with other doctors in her office.

It is more than health issues as well. 

If a person is sick or hurt and cannot work, they soon run out of workplace insurance and unemployment benefits.........then what ?

It is a healthcare crisis and an employment crisis. Sick or hurt people can't work and have no support in place, so they end up on welfare.

The public doesn't care until it involves them or a family member.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> ... _ The public doesn't care until it involves them or a family member. _


 ... that's why I asked are the politicians human or not? For Ontario, let's start with the health minister. She does not need to run to her boss to get answers if she is competent for the job. If she's inept (which seems to be showing by the day), she should get the f-out.


----------



## sags

If Premier Ford has a heart attack.......he will move to the front of the line and be in surgery within hours. 

He will bump out some other patient scheduled for that surgery.

When the rich and famous automatically go to the front of the line.......they could care less about anyone else.


----------



## Beaver101

^ And the rest of us, taxpayers, will continue to b1tch, right, center and left. 24/7/365.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> If Premier Ford has a heart attack.......he will move to the front of the line and be in surgery within hours.
> 
> He will bump out some other patient scheduled for that surgery.
> 
> When the rich and famous automatically go to the front of the line.......they could care less about anyone else.


 ... and he better pray he doesn't get a heart attack anytime soon as surgical procedures will no doubt be postponed/delayed given the upcoming epidural shortage:

Global epidural shortage hits Toronto hospitals

And no, epidurals aren't just used solely for "preggies" although Ford would look like one.


----------



## Beaver101

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/wind...k-quarantine-pandemic-health-travel-1.6550084

Cruise, anyone? Once in a lifetime getaway. And what a way to make your wallet alot lighter too ... too bad he wasn't travelling on company's time or the taxpayers' dime.


----------



## londoncalling

andrewf said:


> I think you'll find that it wasn't just the Canadian health care system that struggled with COVID. To make COVID capacity challenges a unique indictment of the Canadian health care system is not really an argument that stands up to more than cursory evaluation.


I am not sure that I said health care was the only system sector to struggle with Covid. If I did that was not my intent. Many sectors were severely negatively impacted by Covid. However, it takes more training to replace a doctor than it does to replace a server, construction worker or flight attendant. It should not be a surprise to anyone that there was a shortage of doctors, nurses, specialists and medical professionals in many parts of the country prepandemic. I am not talking about the disappearance of rural hospitals and medical centres across the country. Unfortunately those communities cannot support the facilities due to the small populations. People have extreme difficulty in finding a family doctor and wait lists for referrals to specialist can be very lengthy. Some of these issues are people going to the doctor or hospital for every little nuisance, but there are doctors that will insist on a separate visit for each health problems, require visits (like refilling prescriptions) which could (and are starting to be done) be done via phone or video. A lot of our systems are ineffective due to mismanagement and inopportune under/overfunding. Few question if spending is well served to the point that severe cuts to services become the only fix year after year.


----------



## damian13ster

TomB16 said:


> Imagine how much lower our tax bills would be, and how much better our healthcare would be, if we didn't socialize the destructive cost of drugs and alchohol. Even just smoking is estimated to cost taxpayers $16B annually in the form of healthcare. Those payments are not as smooth and satisfying as I would prefer.
> 
> I don't want to leave people for dead but surely, at some level, the cost of saving people from their horrendous decisions will become too much of a burden.


What about cost burden of horrible decisions from current regime that will cost us triple that in interest payments alone in 2024?


----------



## Beaver101

Ontario releases next phase of 'Plan to Stay Open'. Here's what you need to know

For Ontarians: MOH's next phase or phrase: PLAN TO STAY OPEN = ? 

I think a hot air balloon can do alot heck more than what's coming out from this puppet's mouth.


----------



## TomB16

I really wish we had antibody testing for 80+ people here in SK. COVID is now in my Mom's condo and she is extremely precarious.

As cavalier as I am with COVID, now that I've had it, she could lose her grip on this mortal coil with the chill from a cool, late summer, breeze.

Suffice to say, I am as anxious as Beaver looking at a poll showing Doug Ford is in the lead for re-election.


----------



## Money172375

TomB16 said:


> I really wish we had antibody testing for 80+ people here in SK. COVID is now in my Mom's condo and she is extremely precarious.
> 
> As cavalier as I am with COVID, now that I've had it, she could lose her grip on this mortal coil with the chill from a cool, late summer, breeze.
> 
> Suffice to say, I am as anxious as Beaver looking at a poll showing Doug Ford is in the lead for re-election.


Have you tried LifeLabs?


----------



## Beaver101

^ Tom still has to bring his mom to a LifeLab lab center for the testing but what does he mean by his mom in an "extremely" precarious situation? Also, Covid would have been floating around her condo for the past 2+ years ...


----------



## Birder

Speaking of covid testing... I have a friend who is a nurse. He was recently sick and did 5 rapid tests at home and he kept testing negative. He finally paid $126 for a PCR test out of pcoket and confirmed he had covid! I was so surprised to hear that this was not covered by his employer, the Province of Ontario.


----------



## andrewf

I was pretty sure I had COVID in the spring (infection shortly after extended direct exposure) and still tested negative om rapid test.


----------



## Money172375

Recent study shows that approx half of people,with COVID had no symptoms at all and didn’t know they were carriers.









Half of People With Omicron Don't Know They're Infected, Study Says


A small study finds that about half of vaccinated people experience no Omicron symptoms—or only mild ones




time.com





good vaccines? 

either way, I think this is a good thing. I know herd immunity isn’t quite what we hoped, but the more people with asymptomatic illness, is good no? There must be some build up ip of immunity.


----------



## m3s

Money172375 said:


> Recent study shows that approx half of people,with COVID had no symptoms at all and didn’t know they were carriers.


We knew this very early by April 2020

A US aircraft carrier had it spread, Capt Crozier was relieved of command for requesting to have the crew go ashore, they finally tested everyone finding that most healthy military aged folks were asymptomatic



> By April 17, 94% of Theodore Roosevelt's crew had been tested for COVID-19, with 660 sailors testing positive for the virus, an infection rate greater than 14%. Of the sailors who tested positive, *some 60% were asymptomatic, suggesting a high level of "stealth transmission" of the virus.*


Most cases aboard U.S. aircraft carrier are symptom-free


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> Imagine how much lower our tax bills would be, and how much better our healthcare would be, if we didn't socialize the destructive cost of drugs and alchohol. Even just smoking is estimated to cost taxpayers $16B annually in the form of healthcare. Those payments are not as smooth and satisfying as I would prefer.
> 
> I don't want to leave people for dead but surely, at some level, the cost of saving people from their horrendous decisions will become too much of a burden.


The people choose to make those decisions.
A LOT of people voted to legalize pot, and I think part of that was the disinformation being spread (ie it's perfectly safe)
Just a reminder, inhaling small particles is unhealthy. There is a reason woodworkers have a higher cancer risk. Occupational exposure to wood dust and risk of lung cancer in two population-based case–control studies in Montreal, Canada - Environmental Health


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> The people choose to make those decisions.
> A LOT of people voted to legalize pot, and I think part of that was the disinformation being spread (ie it's perfectly safe)
> Just a reminder, inhaling small particles is unhealthy. There is a reason woodworkers have a higher cancer risk. Occupational exposure to wood dust and risk of lung cancer in two population-based case–control studies in Montreal, Canada - Environmental Health


People will use marijuana whether it is legal or not. We let people eat Doritos despite the fact they contribute to obesity which is carcinogenic.


----------



## Beaver101

m3s said:


> We knew this very early by April 2020
> 
> A US aircraft carrier had it spread, Capt Crozier was relieved of command for requesting to have the crew go ashore, they finally tested everyone finding that most healthy military aged folks were asymptomatic
> 
> 
> 
> Most cases aboard U.S. aircraft carrier are symptom-free


 ... the more reason you wear masks as you don't know who can pass you Covid which can be your colleague, boss, neighbour, the cashier or the nice little old lady (or man) you're helping crossing the street unless you don't care about catching it.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... the more reason you wear masks as you don't know who can pass you Covid which can be your colleague, boss, neighbour, the cashier or the nice little old lady (or man) you're helping crossing the street unless you don't care about catching it.


I'm 55 years old and in reasonable health. Of course, I care about catching it. That's why I make an effort to expose myself to people at stores and malls. Wait... that wasn't worded as well as I would prefer. Let's just say I go maskless, although I do wash my hands frequently.

My Mom is in her 80s and her health is marginal, at best. I wear a mask when at her condo.

I have no interest in taking another COVID vaccine booster, unless the law forces me to do so in order to travel.

My Mom has taken a second booster and I'm glad she did.

I think we are past the point of everyone on the planet benefiting from the same prevention/treatment regime.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I'm 55 years old and in reasonable health. Of course, I care about catching it. That's why I make an effort to expose myself to people at stores and malls. Wait... that wasn't worded as well as I would prefer. Let's just say I go maskless, although I do wash my hands frequently.


 ... doh! Of course you would go maskless and get yourself exposed as you've already been exposed! And now part of the asymptomatic group. There are others in society who don't care to be a member of that group in "sharing the germs" who don't even know they're carriers. Like I said, I don't want or need the "freebie", Covid or not.



> My Mom is in her 80s and her health is marginal, at best. I wear a mask when at her condo.
> 
> I have no interest in taking another COVID vaccine booster, unless the law forces me to do so in order to travel.
> 
> My Mom has taken a second booster and I'm glad she did.
> 
> I think we are past the point of everyone on the planet benefiting from the same prevention/treatment regime.


 ... so why were you "wishing" 80+ year olds get PCR testings as per your earlier posts. And what's with the precarious situation or one that's extremely at it?


----------



## m3s

Beaver101 said:


> ... the more reason you wear masks as you don't know who can pass you Covid which can be your colleague, boss, neighbour, the cashier or the nice little old lady (or man) you're helping crossing the street unless you don't care about catching it.


A mask doesn't protect you it just reduces the chance of you spreading it.

There are far too many activities like eating at a restaurant that make a mask completely impractical. Most cashiers have plexi glass and I am conscious of any surfaces touched by all the strangers especially the point of sale (I use apple pay whenever possible or tap to avoid touching those nasty buttons) I lived in high density US with high rate of infection for years and didn't get sick by using my brain to manage the risks same as I do in all aspects of life already

Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. - George Carlin


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... so why were you "wishing" 80+ year olds get PCR testings as per your earlier posts.


I don't recall wishing PCR testings for 80+ people.

It would be helpful to know if my Mom has had an infection. If she has an infection right now, I'm pretty confident we would know.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> *I really wish we had antibody testing for 80+ people here in SK. COVID is now in my Mom's condo and she is extremely precarious.*
> 
> As cavalier as I am with COVID, now that I've had it, she could lose her grip on this mortal coil with the chill from a cool, late summer, breeze.
> 
> Suffice to say, I am as anxious as Beaver looking at a poll showing Doug Ford is in the lead for re-election.





TomB16 said:


> *I don't recall wishing PCR testings for 80+ people.*
> 
> It would be helpful to know if my Mom has had an infection. If she has an infection right now, I'm pretty confident we would know.


 ... are you okay TomB16?

Btw, thanks to you that I learned how to do "2" quotes in my reply now. Just figured it out ... after all these years with one quote per post.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... are you okay TomB16?


Opinions on this tend to vary.


PCR testing would tell us if she has it, right now.

Antibody testing would tell us if she has had it. If she has had it, that would eliminate her need for further vaccine. If she has not, they should pump her full of more juice than a fruit fly feeding on an orange the moment it is rolled over by a truck tire.


----------



## Beaver101

m3s said:


> A mask doesn't protect you it just reduces the chance of you spreading it.


 ... and so do you want to spread it to someone else just like someone else spread it to you? You can't be that myopic?



> There are far too many activities like eating at a restaurant that make a mask completely impractical. Most cashiers have plexi glass and I am conscious of any surfaces touched by all the strangers especially the point of sale (I use apple pay whenever possible or tap to avoid touching those nasty buttons) I lived in high density US with high rate of infection for years and didn't get sick by using my brain to manage the risks same as I do in all aspects of life already


 ... true it would silly to "eat" with your mask on. 

As for tap, don't be surprise that folks are now reverting to using "cash" like counting their loonies, nickels and dimes instead of using their cc on "tap". Also, it's a fact that they prefer to stick their card in the machine and input their PIN on the keypad instead of "tap". And these are NOT the "old" folks btw who are doing that. I'm guessing there must be a reason for this reversion - their cards are either maxed out (using cash) or their memory is lapsing (need to refresh recalling their PIN). For one, I have been tapping for the past 2+ years that I forgot my PINs completely. It's trial and error on those who terminals don't have tap (and yes there's some stores that still don't have them or even the supermarket where they're down or suspicous of a big purchase on that card like you found someone's else card and tapped.).



> Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. - George Carlin


 ... care to re-think this reply by re-looking at above (first ) response.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Opinions on this tend to vary.
> 
> 
> PCR testing would tell us if she has it, right now.
> 
> Antibody testing would tell us if she has had it. If she has had it, that would eliminate her need for further vaccine. If she has not, they should pump her full of more juice than a fruit fly feeding on an orange the moment it is rolled over by a truck tire.


 ... okay so you're differentiating PCR and anti-body testings. I was equating them. So back to your opinion about getting your mom "your version of anti-body" testing - good luck in Ontario. Maybe you can get her one in Saskatchewan - paid out of your pocket.

I think a senior in an LTC in Ontario would be lucky enough to get a PCR once he/she starts hacking. Ask sags, he would know this more of this (the qualifications) thoroughly.


----------



## TomB16

You may be conflating PCR/antibody/antigen testing. These are three different things.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Sure they may be different things as I'm not a scientist nor want to be one.

Simple question - what is that you're trying to achieve with such antibody test? Isn't already a (and yours) presumption that everyone on this planet already has Covid, even they don't know they had it?


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> People will use marijuana whether it is legal or not. We let people eat Doritos despite the fact they contribute to obesity which is carcinogenic.


You can also be healthy and eat Doritos, I'm slightly overweight, but not obese, and I have no trouble running a few miles at a decent pace.
To be honest, I prefer all Dressed Ruffles, but that's just me.

There is no safe dose of marijuanna smoke. There IS a safe dose of Doritos.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> You can also be healthy and eat Doritos, I'm slightly overweight, but not obese, and I have no trouble running a few miles at a decent pace.
> To be honest, I prefer all Dressed Ruffles, but that's just me.
> 
> There is no safe dose of marijuanna smoke. There IS a safe dose of Doritos.


Is that not a decision for adults to make? Smoking is also not the only delivery mechanism.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Is that not a decision for adults to make? Smoking is also not the only delivery mechanism.


Matters, are we a free country or a nanny state?

In this country we are not free to many many decisions, even ones that only affect the participants.


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Sure they may be different things as I'm not a scientist nor want to be one.
> 
> Simple question - what is that you're trying to achieve with such antibody test? Isn't already a (and yours) presumption that everyone on this planet already has Covid, even they don't know they had it?


 ... since there has been silence on the (/my) question, can we (/I) assume we (/I) won't get an answer? Aka don't know what your (earlier) post regarding seniors (particularly 80+) hit or to be hit with Covid about.


----------



## Money172375

My mom was advised by a family member (who is a cancer research doctor) to get a antibody test. Many blood cancer patients don’t build up antibodies through vaccine or natural infection. I guess she’s curious to see if she has any anti bodies after 3 doses. I’m telling her to get a fourth shot and then get the antibody a Few months later. She’s refusing any more shots at this point since she thinks they’re ineffective for some cancer patients.


----------



## TomB16

Money172375 said:


> My mom was advised by a family member (who is a cancer research doctor) to get a antibody test.


How would she make that happen?


----------



## ian

Some of DW's family are great ones for giving medical advice. One is an expert. After all, she was an RN 20 years ago, has not worked in that capacity since, but apparently knows everything about everything medical, including but not limited to covid.

A few others attended the Facebook School of Medicine and are very much anti vax everything. They worry about those micro chips. They attach covid issues to WEF and the 'reset'. Despite that they seem experts on the efficacy of covid shots, boosters, hydroxychloroquine, and ivermectin. Big believers in any MLM products.

We are not as smart or as well read as any of them. And we live 3500KM west of them. We are left to depend on the advice of our physicians and on the advice/direction of our local health authorities.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> My mom was advised by a family member (who is a cancer research doctor) to get a antibody test. * Many blood cancer patients don’t build up antibodies through vaccine or natural infection. * I guess she’s curious to see if she has any anti bodies after 3 doses.


 ... if the line of thinking is that (in bold), then what's the point of getting an anti-body test anyways other than "curiosity" of "somebody (the doc or the patient?)".


> I’m telling her to get a fourth shot and then get the antibody a Few months later. She’s refusing any more shots at this point since *she thinks they’re ineffective for some cancer patients.*


 ... again, not sure where this line of thinking is coming from? Is it because she didn't catch Covid or don't have any symptoms of it that the vax isn't effective? Really puzzling thought.


----------



## Money172375

TomB16 said:


> How would she make that happen?


You can get antibody tests at life labs in ontario for $90


----------



## Money172375

Beaver101 said:


> ... if the line of thinking is that (in bold), then what's the point of getting an anti-body test anyways other than "curiosity" of "somebody (the doc or the patient?)". ... again, not sure where this line of thinking is coming from? Is it because she didn't catch Covid or don't have any symptoms of it that the vax isn't effective? Really puzzling thought.


There’s quite a bit of research that many of those with blood cancers don’t build protection through infection Or vaccination. I guess she wants to see if she’s in that group. As of now, we don’t believe she has ever had COVID.

there‘s other research that says they do develop antibodies, but they are ineffective at fighting COVID.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> There’s quite a bit of research that many of those with blood cancers don’t build protection through infection Or vaccination. I guess she wants to see if she’s in that group. As of now, we don’t believe she has ever had COVID.


 ... wouldn't she be covered for anti-body testing in the first place given her cancer condition? And if she thinks she's in the group that don't develop any kind of protection via vax, then she's really vulnerable to every other infectious disease which includes the common cold, the flu, an insect bite or even a cut.



> there‘s other research that says they do develop antibodies, but they are ineffective at fighting COVID.


 ... this makes more sense but a cancer patient's body is immuno-compromised (provided he/she is being treated with immuno-suppressing drugs like chemo) which means development of antibody is waaay lower than for a normal person.


----------



## londoncalling

ian said:


> Some of DW's family are great ones for giving medical advice. One is an expert. After all, she was an RN 20 years ago, has not worked in that capacity since, but apparently knows everything about everything medical, including but not limited to covid.
> 
> A few others attended the Facebook School of Medicine and are very much anti vax everything. They worry about those micro chips. They attach covid issues to WEF and the 'reset'. Despite that they seem experts on the efficacy of covid shots, boosters, hydroxychloroquine, and ivermectin. Big believers in any MLM products.
> 
> We are not as smart or as well read as any of them. And we live 3500KM west of them. We are left to depend on the advice of our physicians and on the advice/direction of our local health authorities.


I would not consider someone who was an RN 20 years ago an expert on Covid. I would however give her opinion more credibility than those who graduated from the Facebook School of Med or even an anonymous poster on a forum board such as myself. Perhaps I have a higher standard for the term expert. I have a friend who has a masters in microbiology and has worked in a virology lab for over twenty years and still does. That IMO would be someone who could be considered a Covid expert. I hold RNs in very high regard but depending on the ward they work in and the amount of time since they have studied or practice they may or may not have a lot of knowledge on the subject. People forget that every sector has a wide array of information and to be an expert would require specialization.


----------



## HappilyRetired

ian said:


> Some of DW's family are great ones for giving medical advice. One is an expert. After all, she was an RN 20 years ago, has not worked in that capacity since, but apparently knows everything about everything medical, including but not limited to covid.
> 
> A few others attended the Facebook School of Medicine and are very much anti vax everything. They worry about those micro chips. They attach covid issues to WEF and the 'reset'. Despite that they seem experts on the efficacy of covid shots, boosters, hydroxychloroquine, and ivermectin. Big believers in any MLM products.
> 
> We are not as smart or as well read as any of them. And we live 3500KM west of them. We are left to depend on the advice of our physicians and on the advice/direction of our local health authorities.


Many local health authorities just repeat what politically appointed health officials tell them. And they've been wrong numerous times, and have withheld important information.

A friend's doctor told his wife not to get the shot because she suffers from Bells Palsy. So she found another doctor who told her to get the shot. Now her symptoms are much more severe and likely permanent.

People who 2 years ago didn't trust Big Pharma now for some reason have completely forgotten why they were hated so much. But I guess all it takes is a media campaign to convince a certain percentage.


----------



## bgc_fan

I'm just going to throw this out there in case people still think that Ivermectin is a cure:








Randomized Trial of Metformin, Ivermectin, and Fluvoxamine for Covid-19 | NEJM


Original Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — Randomized Trial of Metformin, Ivermectin, and Fluvoxamine for Covid-19



www.nejm.org




.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Of course, Ivermectin is a cure if not an oral treatment ... for the loudmouths, MAGA believers, the anti-vaxxers and the medical know-it-all. Just as they believe MaryJanes, fentynal(sic), estacy(sic), coke, etc. can do wonders for their brains. 

Not sure why Metformin is lumped with Ivermectin there as that's the current "standard" treatment (not cure) for type 2 diabetics. Don't know what Fluxovamine does but then the cure-believers of Ivermectin don't care either.


----------



## bgc_fan

Beaver101 said:


> Not sure why Metformin is lumped with Ivermectin there as that's the current "standard" treatment (not cure) for type 2 diabetics. Don't know what Fluxovamine does but then the cure-believers of Ivermectin don't care either.


The study included those other 2 drugs because there was some indication that they may have some affect. For example Metformin has some anti-inflamatory properties and there was indication that people on Metformin did better than those that didn't. Of course that could be because if you are treating diabetes, you are probably helping out the immune system more than someone who has diabetes, but not treating. It's the same hypothesis on why Ivermectin showed some indication when used in places where there is a high rate of worm infection.

The study is important to take those factors out of the equation. Of course, true believers aren't going to change. But I figured it's an update even though it should have been obvious.


----------



## HappilyRetired

There are true believers on both sides. We were told that the shot was 100% effective and that if you had it you couldn't pass Covid along. Both were lies. Both lies came from the experts that still to this day haven't even apologized for spreading misinformation.


----------



## bgc_fan

HappilyRetired said:


> We were told that the shot was 100% effective and that if you had it you couldn't pass Covid along


Cool, you have an official quote (not from some random person on the internet) that actually said this?


----------



## HappilyRetired

bgc_fan said:


> Cool, you have an official quote (not from some random person on the internet) that actually said this?


Have you already forgotten all the claims from Fauci that the vaccine would be 100% effective? Then 95% effective, then 90%, etc.


----------



## bgc_fan

HappilyRetired said:


> Have you already forgotten all the claims from Fauci that the vaccine would be 100% effective? Then 95% effective, then 90%, etc.


Do you have a quote? Because no one I recall ever said 100% effective. Even the companies themselves only said around 90% at the best case.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Post #3231 as said by HR ... everybody is a liar except him. I feel for you.


----------



## HappilyRetired

bgc_fan said:


> Do you have a quote? Because no one I recall ever said 100% effective. Even the companies themselves only said around 90% at the best case.


Fauci said on TV at the beginning it was 100% effective. He also said if you had the shot you couldn't spread it. There was a montage of clips showing him going from 100% effective gradually lower and lower but I can't find it now. I guess you weren't paying attention at the beginning because they were very clear.


----------



## bgc_fan

HappilyRetired said:


> Fauci said on TV at the beginning it was 100% effective. He also said if you had the shot you couldn't spread it. There was a montage of clips showing him going from 100% effective gradually lower and lower but I can't find it now. I guess you weren't paying attention at the beginning because they were very clear.


Nope, you can't find it, so I'm just going to assume you were watching those doctored out of context type videos.


----------



## HappilyRetired

bgc_fan said:


> Nope, you can't find it, so I'm just going to assume you were watching those doctored out of context type videos.


And I'll just assume that when those things were shown on TV you ignored them. Or when they made changes to their numbers you conveniently forgot what was previously stated.


----------



## bgc_fan

HappilyRetired said:


> And I'll just assume that when those things were shown on TV you ignored them. Or when they made changes to their numbers you conveniently forgot what was previously stated.


I probably did ignore them. But then based on the studies I knew vaccines were effective. I mean, for someone who proclaims he does his research, you put a lot of stock on what other people say.


----------



## HappilyRetired

bgc_fan said:


> I probably did ignore them. But then based on the studies I knew vaccines were effective. I mean, for someone who proclaims he does his research, you put a lot of stock on what other people say.


Not really. I've always thought Fauci was a liar and a fraud and that the WHO is run by political interests, not medial interests. The political interests make their medical decisions. And I've been proven to be right on both counts.


----------



## bgc_fan

HappilyRetired said:


> Not really. I've always thought Fauci was a liar and a fraud and that the WHO is run by political interests, not medial interests. The political interests make their medical decisions. And I've been proven to be right on both counts.


In your mind, seeing as you can't seem to show some video where he said it was 100% effective.

Besides, didn't you say you don't see things in black and white? Science is like that, when new information appears (like new variants), things change. But for some reason you think whatever someone says once is supposed to be true forever.


----------



## Money172375

University of Western Ontario joining U of T. UWO will require booster shot to live on rez and masks indoors. Will require 2 doses to attend class (if not living in rez). crazy that these schools are making these announcements so late, after you’ve chosen the school and paid them. What option do you have now?









A tale of two institutions: Western and Fanshawe deviate on return-to-school COVID-19 policies


With classes expected to start in only a couple of weeks, Western University is making it clear that COVID-19 policies will still be in effect this coming fall semester in order to facilitate in-person learning, but Fanshawe College is going in a different direction.




london.ctvnews.ca


----------



## HappilyRetired

bgc_fan said:


> In your mind, seeing as you can't seem to show some video where he said it was 100% effective.


Here is just one claim. There are other records of such claims, although once proven false many of them magically disappear or are heavily edited. That seems to be a good policy as many people have very short memories.

"Pfizer/BioNTech, Moderna, and Johnson & Johnson clinical trials all found that their vaccines were essentially 100 percent effective in preventing severe disease six to seven weeks after trial participants had received a first/single dose. As biotech journalist Anna Nowogrodzki notes, "Zero vaccinated people in any of the trials were hospitalized or died of COVID-19 after the vaccines had fully taken effect." Now that's the kind of vaccine efficacy that we can all cheer."

Vaccines Are 100% Effective at Preventing COVID-19 Hospitalizations and Deaths (reason.com)


----------



## Birder

bgc_fan said:


> In your mind, seeing as you can't seem to show some video where he said it was 100% effective.


Well, I recall seeing a video of Joe Biden saying that if you are vaccinated, you will not get covid. Justin Trudeau also said those exact words as did Anthony Fauci. I also remember thinking how could they possibly say that when even the manufacturers were not claiming that level of protection.


----------



## HappilyRetired

And more here:

Justin Hart on Twitter: "Just so we're clear. Fauci in May '21: "When people are vaccinated they can feel safe that they are not going to get infected... they're really, really good against variants." #ByeFauci https://t.co/i5XqKEPLCY" / Twitter


----------



## HappilyRetired

Birder said:


> Well, I recall seeing a video of Joe Biden saying that if you are vaccinated, you will not get covid. Justin Trudeau also said those exact words as did Anthony Fauci. I also remember thinking how could they possibly say that when even the manufacturers were not claiming that level of protection.


And those clips have all now disappeared. Most of the people that saved them and posted them to YouTube or Twitter had them removed or were banned.


----------



## Beaver101

Re posts #3243 to 3246 inclusive, then it's "shame on you in believing the talking heads that the vaccines will prevent you from "catching Covid"", just like the Dump tells his followers "I love you so so much that you should go jump off the cliff for me and you get to live a loooonnng and happy life." 

Mind you i see a shred of truth with the Dump's statement ... living forever in the after-life.


----------



## HappilyRetired

bgc_fan said:


> Science is like that, when new information appears (like new variants), things change. But for some reason you think whatever someone says once is supposed to be true forever.


And yet with the climate we were told the science was settled and that debate wasn't allowed. So I guess the reality is that science is only settled when it's convenient.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> University of Western Ontario joining U of T. UWO will require booster shot to live on rez and masks indoors. Will require 2 doses to attend class (if not living in rez). crazy that these schools are making these announcements so late, after you’ve chosen the school and paid them. What option do you have now?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A tale of two institutions: Western and Fanshawe deviate on return-to-school COVID-19 policies
> 
> 
> With classes expected to start in only a couple of weeks, Western University is making it clear that COVID-19 policies will still be in effect this coming fall semester in order to facilitate in-person learning, but Fanshawe College is going in a different direction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> london.ctvnews.ca


 ... get a refund and stay home? That would be cool with the "no classes, ma (or pa)!!!!"


----------



## sags

It is late for Western University to be making that announcement, but it likely is attempting to avoid repeating scenarios from the past couple of years.

There are something like 25,000 students who descend into London to attend Western. In the past couple of years, major outbreaks at the university residences caused closures and lock downs.........and contributed to filling up the capacity of the adjacent University Hospital ER.......one of the two major hospitals in the city.

Will masking be effective.......probably not, as students mingle together regardless of the rules. 

They also spread out across the city into restaurants and bars and spread the virus.


----------



## bgc_fan

HappilyRetired said:


> Here is just one claim. There are other records of such claims, although once proven false many of them magically disappear or are heavily edited. That seems to be a good policy as many people have very short memories.
> 
> "Pfizer/BioNTech, Moderna, and Johnson & Johnson clinical trials all found that their vaccines were essentially 100 percent effective in preventing severe disease six to seven weeks after trial participants had received a first/single dose. As biotech journalist Anna Nowogrodzki notes, "Zero vaccinated people in any of the trials were hospitalized or died of COVID-19 after the vaccines had fully taken effect." Now that's the kind of vaccine efficacy that we can all cheer."
> 
> Vaccines Are 100% Effective at Preventing COVID-19 Hospitalizations and Deaths (reason.com)


Essentially 100% isn't quite the same as 100%, but then like I said, things change when you get new variants. Nature doesn't stand still.


----------



## HappilyRetired

bgc_fan said:


> Essentially 100% isn't quite the same as 100%, but then like I said, things change when you get new variants. Nature doesn't stand still.


If it's not 100% then don't say it's 100%.

Regardless, what puzzles me is that so many people have chosen to conveniently forget those claims even though they were made just a short time ago. It's tiresome proving things over and over again to people who refuse to do their own research.

And as I said with climate, we were told that the science is settled because it prevents debate not because it was settled.


----------



## james4beach

It's true that government people were making over-the-top claims about what the vaccine can do. I can't remember the exact wording but they certainly did make exaggerated claims for a while. I was always against that.

But to be fair, let's remember that vaccines *were* still very effective against delta. It's only with omicron that effectiveness really dropped off sharply. And even then, the studies were showing that 2 shots did a pretty good job at reducing the severity of illness. I carefully looked into that, since I didn't get a third shot.

I have disagreed somewhat with government messaging. They should have been saying something like this instead:
"vaccines don't eliminate the threat of getting sick, so you don't become invincible, but they will likely keep you out of the hospital"


Just got my third shot by the way. I've looked carefully into the studies and am convinced that the third shot is still worthwhile, even as a 40-ish healthy person. I haven't had symptomatic covid yet.


----------



## Beaver101

From post #3243 that "HR himself" retrieved and posted where it says "100% effective" ... at "preventing Covid-related hospitalisations and deaths", not "100% effective in avoiding/catching Covid". And so the vaccine did the former but not at 100% if one actually read the article itself - it's all 95% efficiacy throughout. 

That "100%" in the title was a sell job for a (super)-idiot who believes in a 100% success rate on anything in life plus the notion of not catching Covid by being vaccinated. 

God, some people just loves to twist things around and then go labelling everyone else as a liar because his life is everyone's fault.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> It's true that government people were making over-the-top claims about what the vaccine can do. I can't remember the exact wording but they certainly did make exaggerated claims for a while. I was always against that.
> 
> But to be fair, let's remember that vaccines *were* still very effective against delta. It's only with omicron that effectiveness really dropped off sharply. And even then, the studies were showing that 2 shots did a pretty good job at reducing the severity of illness. I carefully looked into that, since I didn't get a third shot.
> 
> I have disagreed somewhat with government messaging. They should have been saying something like this instead:
> "vaccines don't eliminate the threat of getting sick, so you don't become invincible, but they will likely keep you out of the hospital"
> 
> 
> Just got my third shot by the way. I've looked carefully into the studies and am convinced that the third shot is still worthwhile, even as a 40-ish healthy person. I haven't had symptomatic covid yet.


 ... waiting for my 4th shot in the fall as it'll cover Omicron. I'm hoping they mix the flu shot also into it by then.


----------



## Money172375

I’m Not sure we’ll see a flu/covid vaccine this fall. The newest version by Moderna, about to be approved by Health Canada targets the original strain and omicron bA1. 
I don’t think bA1 is even the dominant Omicron strain anymore.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/moderna-to-supply-12m-doses-of-omicron-targeted-covid-shot-to-canada-1.6558285



up til now, it seems the variants mutate Way too fast for vaccines to target the latest version.


----------



## TomB16

bgc_fan said:


> I'm just going to throw this out there in case people still think that Ivermectin is a cure:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Randomized Trial of Metformin, Ivermectin, and Fluvoxamine for Covid-19 | NEJM
> 
> 
> Original Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — Randomized Trial of Metformin, Ivermectin, and Fluvoxamine for Covid-19
> 
> 
> 
> www.nejm.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Your use of "cure" is a pretty strong tell of your complete lack of objectivity with regard to Ivermectin. I don't recall hearing or reading anyone using that word with regard to Ivermectin as a possible treatment.

There appear to be a variety of problems with this study. The study just published on August 18. I expect it to be discredited sometime in the next few weeks.

The objective truth to come out of these studies is that Ivermectin is a highly politicized medication. An objective study and analysis of that study seems to be impossible in the current climate.

Conclusion: "None of the three medications that were evaluated prevented the occurrence of hypoxemia, an emergency department visit, hospitalization, or death associated with Covid-19."

No vaccine prevents these outcomes, either.

So, "1323 were included in the primary analysis" of a 2 by 3 factor study. Look at the cohorts. Look at the treatment regimens. This study appears to have been done on a reasonable sample size but the group is further divided into 5 groups.



The only Ivermectin studies that remain un-shamed show Ivermectin has promise and needs more study but these studies have tiny sample groups so are extremely inconclusive. The studies with large groups and strong conclusions (both for and against) have all been discredited. If this study is not discredited, it will be an interesting data point but hardly a conclusion.

Consider the idea that one study shows a 60% reduced chance of hospitalization and death with Ivermectin while another study shows 5% increase in bad outcome with this medication, and you decided to take the most negative study (which also has, by far, the smallest sample group) and use that to draw your conclusion.

My conclusion is there is insufficient data to conclude Ivermectin is either a help or a hindrance but I will continue to read studies as they are released and subsequently discredited.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Quick question(s):

1. Do you need a rx for Ivermectin?
2. Would your (famiily) doctor prescribe Ivermectin if you so believe it can even remotely prevent Covid?

If answer to question 1 is "yes" and to question 2 is a "no", then why the hell do you want to "consider " or even wait for it to be discredited when you have a proven vaccine where millions have taken it also? Too much time on hand or bored out of the mind?


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> I’m Not sure we’ll see a flu/covid vaccine this fall. The newest version by Moderna, about to be approved by Health Canada targets the original strain and omicron bA1.
> I don’t think bA1 is even the dominant Omicron strain anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/moderna-to-supply-12m-doses-of-omicron-targeted-covid-shot-to-canada-1.6558285
> 
> 
> 
> up til now, it seems the variants mutate Way too fast for vaccines to target the latest version.


 ... it's a "hope" there. I would prefer 1 shot than 2 for efficiency. Anyhow, stick with the mask plus other Covid protocols in trying "not" to catch it. Or don't, it's your choice. 

For one, I will try my darnest to NOT catch the flu even, let alone Covid. And yes, I'll be getting a flu shot if it hasn't merged with the Covid vaccine whichever comes first.


----------



## james4beach

I have a relative in her 70s who might be suffering from Long Covid. It's a developing situation so we don't know the whole story yet.

She was in good health (though had high risk-factors for covid) back around January of this year. Then she rapidly developed,
cognitive impairment
significant pains
difficulty sleeping
loss of appetite

She's been going to doctors, all her blood screening and other tests are coming back OK, so there is no obvious cause of all this discomfort and weird symptoms. Her doctor currently suspects it may be Long Covid.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I have a relative in her 70s who might be suffering from Long Covid. It's a developing situation so we don't know the whole story yet.
> 
> She was in good health (though had high risk-factors for covid) back around January of this year. Then she rapidly developed,
> cognitive impairment
> significant pains
> difficulty sleeping
> loss of appetite
> 
> She's been going to doctors, all her blood screening and other tests are coming back OK, so there is no obvious cause of all this discomfort and weird symptoms. Her doctor currently suspects it may be Long Covid.


Could also be old age.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Could also be old age.


Except it all developed very rapidly over the span of just 6 months (though I'm hearing all of this second hand).

It's possible I suppose. Just seems a bit young to have such severe problems.


----------



## TomB16

Those symptoms could belong to any number of ailments. My Mom has those symptoms when her hemoglobin drops below about 80. When it gets down into the 50s, she can be difficult to comprehend and she certainly can't carry on a conversation.

I hope your relative is under medical care.


----------



## ian

londoncalling said:


> I would not consider someone who was an RN 20 years ago an expert on Covid. I would however give her opinion more credibility than those who graduated from the Facebook School of Med or even an anonymous poster on a forum board such as myself. Perhaps I have a higher standard for the term expert. I have a friend who has a masters in microbiology and has worked in a virology lab for over twenty years and still does. That IMO would be someone who could be considered a Covid expert. I hold RNs in very high regard but depending on the ward they work in and the amount of time since they have studied or practice they may or may not have a lot of knowledge on the subject. People forget that every sector has a wide array of information and to be an expert would require specialization.


My spouse is an RN. She has not worked for ten plus years. But….she is very well aware of how quickly treatment plans can change. Her advice is always the same…seek out professional advice from those currently in practice. 

When she went back to the hospital after a five year absence she did a refresher. Even then she felt like a new grad because of the massive changes and advances during that time.

Medicine and treatments in some areas of practice are changing in exponentially.


----------



## damian13ster

Actually, all of those symptoms can be explained by decrease in cognitive and physical activity.
Sadly saw the same happen with my grandmother. Rapid deterioration during lockdown.
Three months is all it took, she was 81, but was active member of community and home association - until it was all taken away


----------



## Beaver101

^ And sadly these were the "seniors" who were placed their by their own kids 'cause them grandkids have to be babysat until they're ready to leave home, after them grandkids get a following on IG, TickTock, YouTube and whatever social garbage. 

So am I surprised that none of them "grandkid(s)" even bother to ask their parents "hey mom & dad, why do you have grandma & grandpa locked up at the LTCs? They could have come home to live with us." 

Like they give a sh1t as they care about the lockdowns ... yeah, only on the poor me with cognitive decline, mental deterioration ... blah blah blah ... whilst working EXTREMELY HARD from home , getting PAID by YOUR EMPLOYER for playing doc / scientists with those rapid testings and subsequent spewings on CMF 24/7.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> And sadly these were the "seniors" who were placed their by their own kids 'cause them grandkids have to be babysat until they're ready to leave home, after them grandkids get a following on IG, TickTock, YouTube and whatever social garbage.


This is just an anecdote, but I want to clarify that the senior relative I mentioned in my post was living independently, at home, entirely on her own terms.

She appears to have suffered a rapid deterioration while living independently.


----------



## james4beach

Just sharing an anecdote, an unusually bad COVID infection of a friend. It happened this summer, so it's omicron.

Female, 30, smoker
Received 3 mRNA shots
Rather heavy COVID sickness,
followed by pneumonia, *required hospitalization*

That's pretty serious. By the sounds of it, COVID wore her down, and then she developed pneumonia. Something similar happened to a relative of mine (37 yo male) but that was before vaccinations existed.

The fact omicron can land a 3x vaccinated 30 year old into hospital is noteworthy. Yes, she's a smoker, and that probably increased her vulnerability.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Just sharing an anecdote, an unusually bad COVID infection of a friend. It happened this summer, so it's omicron.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> The fact omicron can land a 3x vaccinated 30 year old into hospital is noteworthy. Yes, she's a smoker, and that probably increased her vulnerability.


This may be an outlier but it is more likely to follow the data that is well established. Those who believe in science are probably not surprised.

The booster was available toward the end of 2021. Let's say she waited and got the booster on January 1, 2022.

It is said the booster is good for 24 weeks but that is a pile of dung being slung by pro-vax drones. Objective numbers show this is a small exaggeration.

The data shows:


reduced immunity for 2 weeks (about 10 days) following the injection
reasonably strong immunity from week 3 to 19
the very end of the benefit gone at 22 weeks

When I write "benefit gone", I don't mean reduced. I mean there is absolutely no detectable benefit to having had the booster after that time, even if you completely disregard statistical confidence. That means, by June 4, 2022 she was completely unprotected.

By late May, she had extreme little protection to the point it was not significant.


So, it's not surprising she got BA.4/5 this summer, booster or not. If she had been in the effective period of the booster, she would have had reduced chance of a severe infection or death. She was still susceptible to getting BA.4/5 though, as it was selected and thrived in it's ability to escape previous COVID immunity.

I'm sure this is all random and scary for the people who don't bother or don't believe in the data that comes out of various studies. For those of us who have followed the studies, it is now predictable with only a few outliers. BTW, I disregard studies I feel are not objective regardless of the conclusion they reach.

This is why the best course of action, for me, was to get the booster, wait a few weeks, and then open my immunity trench coat in public places.

BTW, there was an effort to discredit data that showed natural immunity was better than vaccine based immunity but that effort was discredited. Natural immunity is still the way to go, according to the best data. If new data comes in, I will be the first to cite it and the new best practices.


----------



## damian13ster

But we still treat people who got 2 doses 18 months ago differently from people who didn't get them because #science


----------



## Money172375

I was part of a super spreader event. About 25 people in a room of 50 got COVID. Ages ranged from 45-80. All,but 2 were vaxxed To some degree. Most with 3 shots. Some with with 2, some with 4. Most people had minor symptoms and we‘re back to normal in 5-7 days. Unvaxxed took about 2 weeks to recover, one of the triple vaxxed took about 3 weeks to recover. 

there’s so much variability with this disease. 

as an aside, I referenced my mom a few posts ago. She met with her family doctor and he was quite angry that she hadn’t received her 4th dose. So clearly, even medical doctors Disagree on what to do. I think for those who are elderly or I’ll…then the risk of numerous shots out weights the consequences. 

As since the beginning, I wish the reporting on hospitalizations and deaths contained more data. I’d like to know about underlying issues and general state of health prior to infection. I understand privacy, but releasing this info without names attached seems common sense.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> By late May, she had extreme little protection to the point it was not significant.


I'm aware of this, but I was posting it more to give a real example / reminder that omicron can still be dangerous -- even if someone is young and vaccinated.

I'm just trying to remind people to be careful and not dismiss the risk of COVID.

During this pandemic, I personally know several people who died or ended up in the hospital. I'm not trying to stoke alarm, but I think a small amount of fear is healthy. The good news though, there was only one death, and most of the hospitalizations occurred before vaccines existed.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> I'm aware of this, but I was posting it more to give a real example / reminder that omicron can still be dangerous -- even if someone is young and vaccinated.


Fair enough.

Have you considered the danger your friend was in and how it would have been drastically reduced if she had taken the vaccine, used precautions for three weeks, and then exposed herself to the virus? She would have most likely had a mild reaction and now she would have much longer lasting immunity.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> Have you considered the danger your friend was in and how it would have been drastically reduced if she had taken the vaccine, used precautions for three weeks, and then exposed herself to the virus? She would have most likely had a mild reaction and now she would have much longer lasting immunity.


I don't know the details, but it's going to be hard to organize one's life around timing of vaccines. One has social events that come up, that may not cooperate with one's vaccine time line.

I went to a birthday party, and many business meetings in the summer when I was quite far past my last vaccination. Thankfully didn't get sick but I knew it was high risk.

Vaccine immunity wanes pretty fast so I think we'll just have to accept that we ARE going to get sick with COVID. From my perspective, the point of the vaccines is to reduce severity of the illness and keep me out of the hospital. The longer lasting part of the immunity appears to last much longer after vaccination.

As for deliberately exposing yourself to the virus, just take the bus or visit the airport.


----------



## TomB16

My post was poorly worded. The immunity she has now is probably about the same as if she had gotten an infection during the vaccine's effective period. Hopefully, you knew the intent of my post.

Whatever the case, best wishes to your friend.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> I don't know the details, but it's going to be hard to organize one's life around timing of vaccines. One has social events that come up, that may not cooperate with one's vaccine time line.


I've read a lot of data and studies but I don't recall reading that COVID is terribly interested in the inconvenience it causes to those it infects. lol!

If you're blowing off the process due to convenience, you are exposed to the risk vector which goes with that adult decision.


----------



## bgc_fan

HappilyRetired said:


> If it's not 100% then don't say it's 100%.
> 
> Regardless, what puzzles me is that so many people have chosen to conveniently forget those claims even though they were made just a short time ago. It's tiresome proving things over and over again to people who refuse to do their own research.
> 
> And as I said with climate, we were told that the science is settled because it prevents debate not because it was settled.


And I said not to bother with out of context quotes. But whatever.


----------



## bgc_fan

TomB16 said:


> Your use of "cure" is a pretty strong tell of your complete lack of objectivity with regard to Ivermectin. I don't recall hearing or reading anyone using that word with regard to Ivermectin as a possible treatment.
> 
> There appear to be a variety of problems with this study. The study just published on August 18. I expect it to be discredited sometime in the next few weeks.
> 
> The objective truth to come out of these studies is that Ivermectin is a highly politicized medication. An objective study and analysis of that study seems to be impossible in the current climate.
> 
> Conclusion: "None of the three medications that were evaluated prevented the occurrence of hypoxemia, an emergency department visit, hospitalization, or death associated with Covid-19."
> 
> No vaccine prevents these outcomes, either.
> 
> So, "1323 were included in the primary analysis" of a 2 by 3 factor study. Look at the cohorts. Look at the treatment regimens. This study appears to have been done on a reasonable sample size but the group is further divided into 5 groups.
> 
> 
> 
> The only Ivermectin studies that remain un-shamed show Ivermectin has promise and needs more study but these studies have tiny sample groups so are extremely inconclusive. The studies with large groups and strong conclusions (both for and against) have all been discredited. If this study is not discredited, it will be an interesting data point but hardly a conclusion.
> 
> Consider the idea that one study shows a 60% reduced chance of hospitalization and death with Ivermectin while another study shows 5% increase in bad outcome with this medication, and you decided to take the most negative study (which also has, by far, the smallest sample group) and use that to draw your conclusion.
> 
> My conclusion is there is insufficient data to conclude Ivermectin is either a help or a hindrance but I will continue to read studies as they are released and subsequently discredited.


I'm not sure how you think that my using the word cure is showing lack of objectivity. Wasn't that how it was touted? As a treatment to cure covid? Or are you just splitting hairs?

The study showed that there was no difference between the rate of hospitalization/death between those who took the three drugs vs those who didn't. I think it's pretty well established that there is a difference in rates between those who are vaccinated and those who aren't. Who is now lacking objectivity stating that no vaccine prevents these outcomes? It's a question of whether a treated population has better results than untreated. 

The main problem with most of the ivermectin studies is that they weren't well run. Plus you had a number of meta-studies that depended on a particular study that turned out to be fraudulent (the researchers just made up the numbers). Large Ivermectin Study Retracted
The problem with this was that was a fake "study" that had an outsized affect on the meta-analysis due to the size of the patient sample. But then you had meta-studies building on this bad data and suddenly you saw a number of studies that showed how effective Ivermectin was. The problem is if you took this particular study out, you'd see that there was no effectiveness.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> This is just an anecdote, but I want to clarify that the senior relative I mentioned in my post was living independently, at home, entirely on her own terms.
> 
> She appears to have suffered a rapid deterioration while living independently.


 ... were the windows and doors bolted such that she couldn't even walk around the block? I think something else is at work (an illness) other than the "lockdown(s)".

Hell, some spewers here even strongly believes lockdowns (more like time & location restrictions sans a curfew) causes unexplainable liver diseases in "kids".

If lockdowns were that potentially deadly, I can imagine those in prison (or for those heading that way) will succumb to the grim reaper in no time from liver failure and/or dementia.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Just sharing an anecdote, an unusually bad COVID infection of a friend. It happened this summer, so it's omicron.
> 
> Female, 30, smoker
> Received 3 mRNA shots
> Rather heavy COVID sickness,
> followed by pneumonia, *required hospitalization*
> 
> That's pretty serious. By the sounds of it, COVID wore her down, and then she developed pneumonia. Something similar happened to a relative of mine (37 yo male) but that was before vaccinations existed.
> 
> The fact omicron can land a 3x vaccinated 30 year old into hospital is noteworthy. Yes, she's a smoker, and that probably increased her vulnerability.


 ... quick question(s) - 1. has she ever come down with a flu? and 2. did she get a flu shot? I'm betting the answers are "no" in both cases hence, she's so susceptible to Covid aside from the "smoking" risk.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... were the windows and doors bolted such that she couldn't even walk around the block? I think something else is at work (an illness) other than the "lockdown(s)".


It wasn't due to lockdowns. She was never "locked down" where she lived, and could freely leave the house and even go shopping in stores.

Same with where I live in BC. Never was locked down, except for a period where the province asked us to not engage in unnecessary travel between health regions. There were still plenty of places to go.


----------



## damian13ster

So lockdowns didn't decrease amount of human interactions she had?
It is well known that for seniors decrease in interactions lead to cognitive and physical decline


----------



## TomB16

We were wintering in Victoria when a news item explaining law enforcement was going to arrest anyone with out of province plates. We cut our time in Victoria short by two months. I'd call that a lock down.


----------



## HappilyRetired

bgc_fan said:


> And I said not to bother with out of context quotes. But whatever.


I didn't post anything out of context. We were told that it was 100% effective, and at least one other person here heard the same thing.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> We were wintering in Victoria when a news item explaining law enforcement was going to arrest anyone with out of province plates. *We cut our time in Victoria short by two months. I'd call that a lock down.*


 ... are you serious, cut your vacation time down by "2 months", not "days" on account of that? So what will happen if you said you "weren't aware/hear" of that "arresting" news as stopped by Victoria's cops? You could have told them you were in your car all the time (with radio and cellphone turned off or not available) and so didn't hear the news.

It'll would have been really funny that you did get thrown into jail for that and subsequently catches Covid. Not that catching Covid would have been any deal for ya.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> So lockdowns didn't decrease amount of human interactions she had?
> It is well known that for seniors decrease in interactions lead to cognitive and physical decline


 ... why don't you also state that "_it is well known that youngsters (like me) with any decrease in interactions (including that on CMF) lead to cognitive and physical decline_" and hysterical outputs too.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> It wasn't due to lockdowns. She was never "locked down" where she lived, and could freely leave the house and even go shopping in stores.
> 
> Same with where I live in BC. Never was locked down, except for a period where the province asked us to not engage in unnecessary travel between health regions. There were still plenty of places to go.


What part of the country wasn't locked down during COVID?


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> So what will happen if you said you "weren't aware/hear" of that "arresting" news as stopped by Victoria's cops?


I would be making custom licence plates that read "BEAVER101", right now.


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> We were wintering in Victoria when a news item explaining law enforcement was going to arrest anyone with out of province plates. We cut our time in Victoria short by two months. I'd call that a lock down.


Arrest them for what crime exactly? That sounds like hearsay. Police need probably cause to initiate a traffic stop. Out of province plates don't meet that threshold.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> Arrest them for what crime exactly? That sounds like hearsay. Police need probably cause to initiate a traffic stop. Out of province plates don't meet that threshold.


honestly, not like police, politicians, or anyone really cares. it is Canada


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I would be making custom licence plates that read "BEAVER101", right now.


 ... thanks for the idea of copyrighting or trademarking my moniker.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> What part of the country wasn't locked down during COVID?


 .... the Yukon and NWTerrritories ... folks there were asking - is there a pandemic going on?


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> Arrest them for what crime exactly? That sounds like hearsay. Police need probably cause to initiate a traffic stop. Out of province plates don't meet that threshold.


It was last year and it featured highly in the news.



https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2021PSSG0029-000758



We drove our car home during this period and did not have any trouble but there was talk on the news of out of province plates being pulled over.

I also recall some Americans presenting at the border, saying they were travelling to Alaska, and then staying in the lower mainland of B.C. Several cases of this were caught and somehow processed through the legal system.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> .... the Yukon and NWTerrritories ... folks there were asking - is there a pandemic going on?


That region was untouched by the pandemic for a long time. Then, everyone caught COVID nearly all at once. It was ideal, from a herd immunity standpoint.


----------



## TomB16

Man tests positive for monkeypox, COVID and HIV after holiday to Spain


A 36-year-old patient in Italy returned from holiday in Spain and later presented with a series of symptoms that led doctors to carry out a series of tests. They found he was the first patient so far discovered to have COVID, monkeypox and HIV.




news.sky.com


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> Man tests positive for monkeypox, COVID and HIV after holiday to Spain
> 
> 
> A 36-year-old patient in Italy returned from holiday in Spain and later presented with a series of symptoms that led doctors to carry out a series of tests. They found he was the first patient so far discovered to have COVID, monkeypox and HIV.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.sky.com


Wow! That must have been quite a trip. Apparently monkeypox has been disproportionate infecting HIV positive MSM (40% of cases were in HIV positive individuals, though only 0.4% of MSM are infected with HIV). Maybe this strain of monkeypox more easily infects HIV positive people, as I doubt behaviour alone could explain that difference in infection rate.


----------



## TomB16

Say what you will about the down side; dude knows how to party.


----------



## Plugging Along

TomB16 said:


> It was last year and it featured highly in the news.
> 
> 
> 
> https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2021PSSG0029-000758
> 
> 
> 
> We drove our car home during this period and did not have any trouble but there was talk on the news of out of province plates being pulled over.
> 
> I also recall some Americans presenting at the border, saying they were travelling to Alaska, and then staying in the lower mainland of B.C. Several cases of this were caught and somehow processed through the legal system.


Our friends where heading to their cabin in BC (from AB) during the ban, and they had their boat with them, and were forced to turn around for none essential travel. We went out the week after and had no problems and just told them we had to check on our property which was true.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> What part of the country wasn't locked down during COVID?


I don't recall being "locked down" here in BC. I went out of my house every day and more or less went to the grocery store every day or two. Definitely went for daily walks.

There was never any requirement that I must stay at home and can't leave.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Just because there were restrictions at the mall with restricted hours and the 6' apart line ups, that's known as a "lockdown" to MrMatt. 

And funny enough, getting to work from home whilst ranting on CMF from 9am to 5pm Monday to Friday, including the weekends wasn't considered part of his definition of a lockdown. Mind you, this work habit was not exclusive to him on this forum.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> I don't recall being "locked down" here in BC. I went out of my house every day and more or less went to the grocery store every day or two. Definitely went for daily walks.
> 
> There was never any requirement that I must stay at home and can't leave.


There was a requirement to stay within your 'regions' of your health zone. This was really bad when there were parts of the BC interior were really bad. I don't know how they were enforcing if they were or not, but near the AB/BC border, I can tell you one weekend they were trying turn Albertan' s back. Most were allowed through as it was for 'essential travel'. I don't know how they determined essential or not.

Part of the challenge to these discussions/debates here is different provinces did different things. There were different definitions of what a 'lockdown' is. Apart from the complete initial lockdowns where every one was to stay at home unless it was for the essentials, there were partial lock downs where some parts of service or business where locked down and then there were restrictions. 

I can say my mom's home has had huge restrictions and was locked down more than most LTC places because they were super cautious. No visits were allowed, just drop off of supplies at the front desk. My mom tested positive last week and due to an outbreak on her floor (currently at least 8 cases), so their whole floor has been under locked again, but the rest of the building is okay for visits. 

I highlight this because lockdowns can impact on smaller population, but it is still an impact. We have seen class lock downs of 30 kids, grades of 200, school of up 2400, whole districts of schools. This applies to sports and activities or whatever people are in. I understand why they locked some of those things down, but it still has an impact.


----------



## sags

Atlantic Canada closed down travelers for awhile.

Some people forget how bad the situation was with people getting very sick and dying. They want to look back now and criticize actions by the government.

Remember all the deaths in the LTC homes ? Remember the scenes in other countries ?

I think the last thing Canadians should or will do, is reward the anti-vaxxers and covid denier politicians with election support.


----------



## Beaver101

^ People have short-term memories and the able-bodies can't be inconvenienced. The world remains as a "dog eat dog (with apologies to this species)" world.


----------



## Plugging Along

andrewf said:


> Arrest them for what crime exactly? That sounds like hearsay. Police need probably cause to initiate a traffic stop. Out of province plates don't meet that threshold.


Not hearsay, I was travelling to our place in BC at that time. We were going to our cabin because we had a call regarding a possible water leak. There were some road side stops from RCMP stopping many of the AB plates. They told us that there was an essential travel ban only due to COVID - can't remember the exact words they used and people could not travel outside of their regions which AB was not in any region. We told them were were going for our pipes, and reminded us that we are not supposed to go into town and should stay at our cabin and follow COVID restrictions. Our friend was turned around the weekend before towing their boat because boating is non essential even though they have their own place. It was really hit and miss. We knew a few others that got stopped but could proceed and many that didn't get stopped at all.


----------



## Beaver101

Ontario Science Advisory Table says that it is being dissolved


_



An independent group of volunteer scientists and public health experts who have advised the Ford government on the response to the COVID-19 pandemic since July 2020 has been informed that it will be dissolved as of next month.

The Ontario Science Advisory Table has released a statement confirming that it was told by Public Health Ontario last week that its work will be discontinued as of Sept. 6.

... 

At this point it is not clear why Public Health Ontario has decided to dissolve the table.

Click to expand...

 ... _ the Ford government must be seeing 1 + 1 = 0 here with the "0" being allocated to the healthcare shortage crisis in Ontario.


----------



## Birder

sags said:


> Remember all the deaths in the LTC homes ? Remember the scenes in other countries ?


As you may or may not recall, the military was called in to assist as a lot of workers were off sick. Their final report indicated that many of the deaths were a result of neglect - seniors died of dehydration and malnutrition. For shame.


----------



## andrewf

Birder said:


> As you may or may not recall, the military was called in to assist as a lot of workers were off sick. Their final report indicated that many of the deaths were a result of neglect - seniors died of dehydration and malnutrition. For shame.


Whose shame? You can't really blame the workers. They were being asked to work in terrible conditions. It reminds me of a story I saw about a hospital in Arizona where a secondary location was being used as a COVID isolation unit and a handful of respiratory therapists and nurses were being asked to mind 7, 8, 9 patients each. It was soul crushing to have so many people's lives placed in your hands and not to be adequately able to care for them, knowing that people were going to die if you went to the washroom, ate food, left to sleep.


----------



## Birder

There was plenty of locking down in Ontario. People alone in parks were getting fined. 



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/compliants-fines-parks-covid-19-1.5537814











Fines, snitch lines: Crackdown on coronavirus rule breakers could have consequences - AGP LLP







www.agpllp.ca





Lots of pointless fearmongering. Lots of small businesses went under. I know someone who works at a funeral home. They said suicides were through the roof.


----------



## Birder

andrewf said:


> Whose shame?


I'll tell you whose shame. It is the operators of these LTCs and the government which lets them operate with so few staff. My mother was in a retirement home, thankfully before covid, but there were basically 2 staff during the day shift for over 100 residents, down to only 1 at night. If there is even one sick or ill person who requires medical care, no one else gets attention. And this is in a place where the residents need help with all the essential activities of daily living - that you and I take for granted.


----------



## Beaver101

Birder said:


> There was plenty of locking down in Ontario. People alone in parks were getting fined.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/compliants-fines-parks-covid-19-1.5537814
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fines, snitch lines: Crackdown on coronavirus rule breakers could have consequences - AGP LLP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.agpllp.ca


 ... over-hyped "lockdowns" by ambulance chasers that include several whiney anti-vax, anti-mask, anti-restrictions, anti-pandemic, anti-this-and-that posters here.



> Lots of pointless fearmongering. Lots of small businesses went under.


 ... fear mongering of what? That the pandemic is made up and you can't get infected with an air-borne-like disease?



> I know someone who works at a funeral home. They said suicides were through the roof.


 ..yeah, no doubt from the shoot-ups while being "locked up" - somewhere.


----------



## damian13ster

Birder said:


> There was plenty of locking down in Ontario. People alone in parks were getting fined.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/compliants-fines-parks-covid-19-1.5537814
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fines, snitch lines: Crackdown on coronavirus rule breakers could have consequences - AGP LLP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.agpllp.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of pointless fearmongering. Lots of small businesses went under. I know someone who works at a funeral home. They said suicides were through the roof.


The assisted suicides were over 10,000 last year.
Government employees were trying to convince veterans to kill themselves.


----------



## TomB16

Gentlemen, please stop redefining history.

British Columbia had occupancy restrictions, restrictions against travel between health regions, face masking restrictions, restricted out of province travel, etc.

When we were in Victoria in 2021, police shut down a party in a building next door that had 38 people in a tiny bachelor suite. It was in the paper the next day. Police said there were droplets of moisture on the windows.

It was both necessary and reasonable, at the time. But, it was done. People were less free than they were prior to the pandemic. Refusing to admit there were restrictions based on no forced wearing of manacles is not a flattering position.


----------



## Beaver101

^ But some posters' here have their own definitions of "restrictions" being understood as "lockdowns". This includes getting a fine from a by-law officer for rollerblading in a park which was considered as being "lockdowned".

I would be hard-pressed to believe the roller-blading non-law-abiding citizen/father there would have hired a lawyer (even from a back alley) to fight his (estimated) $500 fine there. Not especially it got press-coverage for his (and kids') tears. Maybe it was more like the bylaw officer had to hire a lawyer for his subsequent dismissal due to the lack of common sense.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> People were less free than they were prior to the pandemic.


Yes a public health emergency brings necessary requirements, because some people are stupid/reckless and continue having parties. But limiting sizes of parties isn't a "lockdown".

Here in BC, yeah limiting travel between health authority regions is a kind of "lockdown". In my case that restricted me to an area of 22,000 square km which is why (in my memory of it) I never considered myself locked down.

On the other hand, it does sound like Ontario had far worse restrictions/lockdowns.



Plugging Along said:


> Part of the challenge to these discussions/debates here is different provinces did different things. There were different definitions of what a 'lockdown' is. Apart from the complete initial lockdowns where every one was to stay at home unless it was for the essentials, there were partial lock downs where some parts of service or business where locked down and then there were restrictions.


Very good point, it varied by province and maybe even parts within a province. You mentioned seniors facilities and LTC, that's a very good point... those certainly were locked down.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ^ But some posters' here have their own definitions of "restrictions" being understood as "lockdowns". This includes getting a fine from a by-law officer for rollerblading in a park which was considered as being "lockdowned"


Yeah, I think that's more like how people have been using the term "lockdowns" dramatically.

Like for example, health authorities asking you to please not do X... they're calling that a lockdown.
Or the threat of a fine, even though very few fines were actually given out... some call that a lockdown (improper use of the term)

However, closing seniors facilities so that nobody can go in or out, yeah that's a lockdown!


----------



## Plugging Along

Birder said:


> There was plenty of locking down in Ontario. People alone in parks were getting fined.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/compliants-fines-parks-covid-19-1.5537814
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fines, snitch lines: Crackdown on coronavirus rule breakers could have consequences - AGP LLP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.agpllp.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of pointless fearmongering. Lots of small businesses went under. I know someone who works at a funeral home. They said suicides were through the roof.


In all fairness, that article was April 2020 right at the start of the pandemic. I personally believe the very first set of lock downs were necessary as Canada and the world were trying to figure out what the heck was going on. There were much higher deaths do to the spread, so flattening the curve while reducing over capacity at hospitals were needed. Many other countries had more extreme lock downs. I don't think any one is arguing that Canada was under lockdown in the very beginning when your article came out. The questions and debate come when COVID continued and there were different DEGREES of of restriction and lock down after wards. 



Beaver101 said:


> ^ But some posters' here have their own definitions of "restrictions" being understood as "lockdowns". This includes getting a fine from a by-law officer for rollerblading in a park which was considered as being "lockdowned".
> 
> I would be hard-pressed to believe the roller-blading non-law-abiding citizen/father there would have hired a lawyer (even from a back alley) to fight his (estimated) $500 fine there. Not especially it got press-coverage for his (and kids') tears. Maybe it was more like the bylaw officer had to hire a lawyer for his subsequent dismissal due to the lack of common sense.


I would consider that a lock down, even if there is no physical restriction on your home, if you can be legally punished for leaving your house that is a lock down because many places call that 'stay at home'. Just because some didn't bar your windows or arrest you, it's still a lock down. You are being prevented by going some where. 



james4beach said:


> Yes a public health emergency brings necessary requirements, because some people are stupid/reckless and continue having parties. But limiting sizes of parties isn't a "lockdown".
> 
> Here in BC, yeah limiting travel between health authority regions is a kind of "lockdown". In my case that restricted me to an area of 22,000 square km which is why (in my memory of it) I never considered myself locked down.
> 
> On the other hand, it does sound like Ontario had far worse restrictions/lockdowns.
> 
> Very good point, it varied by province and maybe even parts within a province. You mentioned seniors facilities and LTC, that's a very good point... those certainly were locked down.


I think there is an overlap between lock downs and restrictions. When you cannot go somewhere at all (school, work, businesses, hospital, LTC, even sports activity,etc) that is a restriction and lockdown. When they have restrictions aka you can still attend but there are limits, that's a restriction. 



james4beach said:


> Yeah, I think that's more like how people have been using the term "lockdowns" dramatically.
> 
> Like for example, health authorities asking you to please not do X... they're calling that a lockdown.
> Or the threat of a fine, even though very few fines were actually given out... some call that a lockdown (improper use of the term)
> 
> However, closing seniors facilities so that nobody can go in or out, yeah that's a lockdown!


As I said, a threat of a penalty is a lock down by definition if you leave your house or can not go some where at all. 

I have never had a problem with using lock downs or restrictions as a measure to try to reduce the spread of Covid. I think where there are issues are where there are two extremes (as with anything). On one side, you have people that will fight any restriction or measure that impacts their freedom, they are selfish and missing the bigger picture and more people will get sick and die. During the early days, government did need to step in more because the impacts were much larger and there was much more unknown. On the other side, where we have people that are too cautious and just want the restrictions to continue, without considering that all restrictions impact people differently, and it is a point that society and individuals need to learn how to live with COVID because it's not going away. Now that there is more information on how covid works, numerous variants, vaccine and booster availability and more treatments, then protective measure need to be in more the individuals responsibilities

.


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> As I said, a threat of a penalty is a lock down by definition if you leave your house or can not go some where at all.


I'd agree it's a lockdown if the message is: you can't or shouldn't leave your home.

What makes it a prison like "locking" is that you are trapped at home, perhaps by penalty or fine.

Maybe that was the case in Ontario but here in BC, there was never such a restriction. I left home virtually every day, and never faced the threat of any fines for doing so. In fact the Public Health authority even encouraged everyone to go outside for daily walks. And if I wanted to go somewhere farther, I had 22000 square km of land to explore and see before I hit a restriction boundary.

My older relative (who deteriorated physically) was not trapped at home either. She was simply *scared* to go out, so she chose to not go out. That's not the government forcing her to stay at home. That's a very reasonable fear of a highly infectious disease that could have killed her.


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> ...
> I would consider that a lock down, even if there is no physical restriction on your home, if you can be legally punished for leaving your house that is a lock down because many places call that 'stay at home'. Just because some didn't bar your windows or arrest you, it's still a lock down. You are being prevented by going some where.
> ...


 ... no, I wouldn't consider that a lockdown, even "legally punished". The father/family was not restricted in leaving his/their house. If he was, how did he end up in a parking lot? And did the police haul him back to his house/condo? The "by-law" was a restriction of "gathering" there or a prevention of one. He wanted to roller blade with his kids in the lot. I would agree that by-law restriction was stupid as with the officer who fined him with the lack of common sense or so called "adhering" to the textbooks. I'm certain the fine was dropped.

I would agree that the only thing that remotely resembled a lockdown (in Ontario) was on the residents of an LTC or assisted -living facility where one was restricted in leaving or coming into the building freely. It was necessary to prevent an infection or reduce its spread. You can say this was a similar practice in hospitals but again, how can it be a lockdown if someone is in need of emergency services? Like "Sorry, the hospital is in lockdown - you can now turn around/get lost."?


----------



## HappilyRetired

Remember when the health experts told us that certain protests were okay (BLM, etc.) but other protests were not okay? That's when I stopped trusting them. They've done nothing since then to regain my trust.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I didn't know health experts were concerned with BLM protests? 

Anyhow, it doesn't matter if you trusted them or not nor them having to regain your trust. As far as they are concerned, you got vaccinated so you can go on your ranting way.


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> ... no, I wouldn't consider that a lockdown, even "legally punished". The father/family was not restricted in leaving his/their house. If he was, how did he end up in a parking lot? And did the police haul him back to his house/condo? The "by-law" was a restriction of "gathering" there or a prevention of one. He wanted to roller blade with his kids in the lot. I would agree that by-law restriction was stupid as with the officer who fined him with the lack of common sense or so called "adhering" to the textbooks. I'm certain the fine was dropped.
> 
> I would agree that the only thing that remotely resembled a lockdown (in Ontario) was on the residents of an LTC or assisted -living facility where one was restricted in leaving or coming into the building freely. It was necessary to prevent an infection or reduce its spread. You can say this was a similar practice in hospitals but again, how can it be a lockdown if someone is in need of emergency services? Like "Sorry, the hospital is in lockdown - you can now turn around/get lost."?


I still consider it a lock down, there were restrictions that you couldn't leave your house and there was a penalty if you did. We are fortunate that the penalties for the lock down are minor, and we are not physically restrained, but the fact remains there was a partial lock down. In the case of the article, it was really stupid and even if the ticket was thrown out, there was a lock down. 

The lock downs in the hospitals here were family was not allowed in and out. Someone could get care going into the hospital but no one could stay with them. We have friends whose parents died alone in the hospital. At one point, spouses were not allowed in the for the birth of their child (that changed at least to allow the other parent in). I had to take my kid to emergency earlier on, and they asked if I could wait in the car and leave my child in emergency by herself until ready for me. I said 'no', I reminded them because my child was still a minor, then I would have to release her to them and they would be responsible for her while I wasn't there and would not leave ever until my child was out if they didn't let me back in. They didn't physically restrain me or arrest, as it was new situation and staff were just trying to figure things out under a stressful scenario. However, it doesn't change that the hospital was locked down to visitors. 

Like I said, I am not opposed to lock downs when necessary in stopping the spread in the early days, and I followed them more that to the rules. It's unfair to say these restrictions didn't have impacts though, and there were restrictions that prevent people access and freedom of movement.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Yeah, I think that's more like how people have been using the term "lockdowns" dramatically.
> 
> Like for example, health authorities asking you to please not do X... they're calling that a lockdown.
> Or the threat of a fine, even though very few fines were actually given out... some call that a lockdown (improper use of the term)
> 
> However, closing seniors facilities so that nobody can go in or out, yeah that's a lockdown!


The media was reporting the restrictions as "lockdowns"

When they say "please do not do X", and fine you for doing X, that's a restriction.
Depending what X is, that could be considered a lockdown. 

If they are not permitting you to travel freely, I would consider that a lockdown of sorts, as it is clearly an emergency restriction that would be otherwise illegal.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> If they are not permitting you to travel freely, I would consider that a lockdown of sorts, as it is clearly an emergency restriction that would be otherwise illegal.


Our society has many restrictions which change dynamically based on circumstances.

For example, speed limits in school zones. During certain months your speed is restricted, with big penalties. At the low speeds (20 or 30 km/hr) your travel time is quite restricted, so it impedes your freedom.

Like it or not, society does apply a variety of changing restrictions based on circumstances of the day. There is no such thing in Canada as unlimited, unimpeded freedom to do whatever you want at all times. You can't get in your car and stomp on the gas the way you'd like. You can't urinate in public areas whenever you feel the need.

When highly infectious disease is putting our hospitals at the brink of collapse, restrictions are needed. It's perfectly sensible, just like speed limits in school zones.

All of this is part of living in an organized society, and most Canadians are on board with reasonable limitations, when it's needed for our mutual wellbeing.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Our society has many restrictions which change dynamically based on circumstances.
> 
> When highly infectious diseases are putting our hospitals at the brink of collapse, restrictions are needed. It's perfectly sensible, just like speed limits in school zones.


Yes, and the extreme emergency restrictions during covid were termed "lockdowns".

If you go back 2+ years, I was saying that some of the restrictions were insufficient, poorly enforced and it was inappropriate for our leaders (like Trudeau) to so openly flaunt those emergency measures.


----------



## kcowan

The difference between school zones and lockdowns is that the lockdowns were capricious and inconsistently enforced (and ignored by our new King Justin). And they caused many well-run businesses to be forced into bankruptcy by ignorant civil servants.


----------



## james4beach

I don't know if this is just random chance, but among my close circle of friends, everyone seems to be getting sick. All the following are unconnected, no mixing of these people in the last two weeks:


A buddy of mine had about a 10 day cold/flu. Repeatedly tested, but never was positive for covid.
( above is likely covid as it happened after a family dinner, where someone had covid )

Another married couple just caught what's certainly covid, since their visiting houseguest had covid.
( this one just started and rapid tests are showing negative so far )

And me... I've caught something. It's the first time I've been sick in 2.5 years.
( also testing negative so far)


----------



## TomB16

Are you still saving your booster shot or have you had it recently?


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> Are you still saving your booster shot or have you had it recently?


I had the booster shot a week ago. I felt bad for 48 hours only, but then felt back to normal.

After a few days of feeling fine, I started feeling sick (like a cold or flu) so I'm guessing I actually caught something this time. It all started with a sore throat, and that does not happen from the vaccine.

Going to take some Nyquil and hope I can sleep it off, whatever it is.


----------



## TomB16

You were hit just when the vaccine had reduced your immunity.

Sorry, James. Best wishes on a speedy recovery.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I had the booster shot a week ago. I felt bad for 48 hours only, but then felt back to normal.
> 
> After a few days of feeling fine, I started feeling sick (like a cold or flu) so I'm guessing I actually caught something this time. It all started with a sore throat, and that does not happen from the vaccine.
> 
> Going to take some Nyquil and hope I can sleep it off, whatever it is.


Are you collecting samples from mouth (inside checks and tongue) and nose?


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I don't know if this is just random chance, but among my close circle of friends, everyone seems to be getting sick. All the following are unconnected, no mixing of these people in the last two weeks:
> 
> 
> A buddy of mine had about a 10 day cold/flu. Repeatedly tested, but never was positive for covid.
> ( above is likely covid as it happened after a family dinner, where someone had covid )
> 
> Another married couple just caught what's certainly covid, since their visiting houseguest had covid.
> ( this one just started and rapid tests are showing negative so far )
> 
> And me... I've caught something. It's the first time I've been sick in 2.5 years.
> ( also testing negative so far)


 ... I'm guessing that you didn't wear a mask either. *

*Edit: Couldn't due to swimming.


----------



## Birder

UK Government quietly removes approval for use of covid vax in pregnant and breastfeeding women, 2 YEARS AFTER INJECTING THEM WITH IT! Admits safety cannot be assured at this current time! https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-pfizer-biontech-vaccine-for-covid-19/summary-public-assessment-report-for-pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine


*Toxicity conclusions*

The absence of reproductive toxicity data is a reflection of the speed of development to first identify and select COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 for clinical testing and its rapid development to meet the ongoing urgent health need. In principle, a decision on licensing a vaccine could be taken in these circumstances without data from reproductive toxicity studies animals, but there are studies ongoing and these will be provided when available. In the context of supply under Regulation 174, it is considered that sufficient reassurance of safe use of the vaccine in pregnant women cannot be provided at the present time: however, use in women of childbearing potential could be supported provided healthcare professionals are advised to rule out known or suspected pregnancy prior to vaccination. Women who are breastfeeding should also not be vaccinated. These judgements reflect the absence of data at the present time and do not reflect a specific finding of concern. Adequate advice with regard to women of childbearing potential, pregnant women and breastfeeding women has been provided in both the Information for UK Healthcare Professionals and the Information for UK recipients.

Wonder why Canada is not following suit?


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Are you collecting samples from mouth (inside checks and tongue) and nose?


Interesting. I was only using nose samples so far. Are there current guidelines on how to collect from the mouth?

I heard "throat" earlier, but are they now saying cheeks and tongue instead? I'll try this



TomB16 said:


> You were hit just when the vaccine had reduced your immunity.


Yeah that sounds about right. I suspect that I caught this at an outdoor public swimming pool. Normally there is plenty of space but it has been crowded the last few days. Some other people were close enough I could smell them (yuck), so it's easy to envisage transmission of a cold/covid between people crammed in close proximity, even though it's outside. Usually a bad sign when you can smell other people.

So I guess the message is, right after you get vaccinated and your immune system is working on responding to that, stay away from other people for at least a week.


----------



## MrMatt

Birder said:


> UK Government quietly removes approval for use of covid vax in pregnant and breastfeeding women, 2 YEARS AFTER INJECTING THEM WITH IT! Admits safety cannot be assured at this current time! https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-pfizer-biontech-vaccine-for-covid-19/summary-public-assessment-report-for-pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine
> 
> 
> *Toxicity conclusions*
> 
> The absence of reproductive toxicity data is a reflection of the speed of development to first identify and select COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 for clinical testing and its rapid development to meet the ongoing urgent health need. In principle, a decision on licensing a vaccine could be taken in these circumstances without data from reproductive toxicity studies animals, but there are studies ongoing and these will be provided when available. In the context of supply under Regulation 174, it is considered that sufficient reassurance of safe use of the vaccine in pregnant women cannot be provided at the present time: however, use in women of childbearing potential could be supported provided healthcare professionals are advised to rule out known or suspected pregnancy prior to vaccination. Women who are breastfeeding should also not be vaccinated. These judgements reflect the absence of data at the present time and do not reflect a specific finding of concern. Adequate advice with regard to women of childbearing potential, pregnant women and breastfeeding women has been provided in both the Information for UK Healthcare Professionals and the Information for UK recipients.
> 
> Wonder why Canada is not following suit?


When the risk was very high, taking more risks made sense. Now that the risk is low, we shouldn't take such high risks.
I think walking back approvals isn't saying that we know it is riskier, we're saying that the situation is no longer dangerous to justify the unknown risk.


----------



## MrMatt

MrMatt said:


> When the risk was very high, taking more risks made sense. Now that the risk is low, we shouldn't take such high risks.
> I think walking back approvals isn't saying that we know it is riskier, we're saying that the situation is no longer dangerous to justify the unknown risk.


FYI this is why I got my booster, and got my AZ shot (during the heart issue scare), but now I'm questioning getting the 4th shot.

The risk trade offs have changed.


----------



## james4beach

More on long COVID.

The article starts by describing what happened to a 37 year old competitive swimmer. After catching COVID, she's had 20 months of ongoing weakness and pain. She's unable to work or do much else.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/long-covid-sense-abandonment-1.6564583


----------



## HappilyRetired

I wonder how many long Covid cases are really vaccine side effects?


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> So I guess the message is, right after you get vaccinated and your immune system is working on responding to that, stay away from other people for at least a week.


Did the folks giving the injection mention your immune system would be compromized a bit for the first while, when they gave you the vaccine?


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> Did the folks giving the injection mention your immune system would be compromized a bit for the first while, when they gave you the vaccine?


No, I didn't hear that from them. It's an educated guess on my part.

Doesn't it seem a bit of a coincidence that I have so far gone 130 weeks (through the pandemic) without so much as getting the sniffles, even while I regularly go out into public (almost every day), on airplanes, see family members, see friends, have business meetings, etc.

And then the first time I get sick in 130 weeks, happens within 5 days of getting a vaccination? Hard to think that's just random.


----------



## andrewf

HappilyRetired said:


> I wonder how many long Covid cases are really vaccine side effects?


We saw long COVID symptoms before vaccines were available.


----------



## HappilyRetired

andrewf said:


> We saw long COVID symptoms before vaccines were available.


That doesn't mean every illness is long Covid, it's getting hard to keep track of all the lies. And don't forget that SADS (sudden adult death syndrome) is suddenly something to worry about.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Interesting. I was only using nose samples so far. Are there current guidelines on how to collect from the mouth?
> 
> I heard "throat" earlier, but are they now saying cheeks and tongue instead? I'll try this
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah that sounds about right. I suspect that I caught this at an outdoor public swimming pool. Normally there is plenty of space but it has been crowded the last few days. Some other people were close enough I could smell them (yuck), so it's easy to envisage transmission of a cold/covid between people crammed in close proximity, even though it's outside. Usually a bad sign when you can smell other people.
> 
> So I guess the message is, right after you get vaccinated and your immune system is working on responding to that, stay away from other people for at least a week.





https://www.ontariohealth.ca/sites/ontariohealth/files/2022-02/COVID-19RapidAntigenTests-HowtoCollectaSample.pdf


----------



## Money172375

Thinking my daughter has COVID for the second time in 2 months, she was sick at the end of June. Tested multiple times. All negative. The following week, me and wife tested Positive.
daughter is sick again. Tested positive. She was a camp councillor this summer.

her symptoms are worse now, than in June. Maybe it wasn’t COVID in June? 

she’s had 2 doses.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Thinking my daughter has COVID for the second time in 2 months, she was sick at the end of June. Tested multiple times. All negative. The following week, me and wife tested Positive.
> daughter is sick again. Tested positive. She was a camp councillor this summer.
> 
> her symptoms are worse now, than in June. Maybe it wasn’t COVID in June?
> 
> she’s had 2 doses.


"Tested multiple times. All negative."
Rapidtests or PCR.
Earlier this year I know people who tested negative, despite being sick.
I know one who tested negative repeatedly on rapidtests and PCR tests, but they had to get the PCR every other day (due to job), and eventually tested positive.
They never tested positive on the daily rapidtests, and they were sick for days before the positive PCR.

That's when I really started doubting the effectiveness of the tests, also a lot of the Rapidtest is useless data started coming out.


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> "Tested multiple times. All negative."
> Rapidtests or PCR.
> Earlier this year I know people who tested negative, despite being sick.
> I know one who tested negative repeatedly on rapidtests and PCR tests, but they had to get the PCR every other day (due to job), and eventually tested positive.
> They never tested positive on the daily rapidtests, and they were sick for days before the positive PCR.
> 
> That's when I really started doubting the effectiveness of the tests, also a lot of the Rapidtest is useless data started coming out.


Rapidtests.


----------



## Beaver101

What's Covid? Why is it an issue?

To me, Covid is a non-issue when its non-believers had stated:
1. Everybody got it. And so what's the big F-deal !!!!
2. The vax don't work. They make you sick instead - you know heart palpitations, mysterious liver diseases, and/or a free BGates tracking chip.
3. Masks don't work. Besides they aren't fashionable like a Gucci/Coach bag or some crap along this line.
4. Handwashings - cannots be bothered. Besides, everyone will always eat fingers-licking foods anyways, even after using the toilet.
5. 6' apart potentially leads to a lockdown and a fine if not hauled to quarantine hotel.
6. Public health no longer publish positivity rates, deaths or whatever.
7. The Science Advisory Table (for Ontario) is being scrapped so what pandemic?
8. You're go onto the internet (and get to play doctor at same time!) and heal yourself as the ERs are closing, hospitals overloaded with burnout nurses and doctors.
9. And whenever it's mentioned that Covid is an "infectious" disease, spread and shared through the air, start a protest over in Ottawa to 1. get Trudeau to retract that understanding, 2. get free foods from the locals, 3. play with your truck horns/bells, and 4. being able to make as much noise as possible if not get to play with bouncy castles and soaking in hot tubs whilst relaxing on the vacation. Of course, there could be 5, 6, 7 and more items to be listed.
10. ... etc., etc.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Rapidtests.


Yeah, they don't work..
I was concerned with the false negatives earlier, then with Omicron they've become pretty much useless.


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> FYI this is why I got my booster, and got my AZ shot (during the heart issue scare), but now I'm questioning getting the 4th shot.
> 
> The risk trade offs have changed.


Get the Pfizer or Moderna booster?


----------



## Beaver101

^ My MD told me this fall's booster will account for Omicron.

From what I read to date, the Moderna's booster then will cover half for Delta and half for Omicron.

Maybe Pfizer will cover all Omicron by then ... late fall or winter???? Need to read to keep up.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ^ My MD told me this fall's booster will account for Omicron.


The first omicron, not the current omicron, so the vaccine will be ineffective against 95+% of COVID that is out there.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> The first omicron, not the current omicron, so the vaccine will be ineffective against 95+% of COVID that is out there.


 ... just how do you know that 95%+ out there is the "current" Omicron which is? BA4, BA5 as absolute? For all I know, it's a mixed bag out there and I don't want to catch Covid, whichever version. 

And for those who think that deadly Delta is gone, then the logic is there's no need for a booster for Omicron its weakling cousin, no?


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... just how do you know that 95%+ out there is the "current" Omicron which is? BA4, BA5 as absolute? For all I know, it's a mixed bag out there and I don't want to catch Covid, whichever version.


I believe in science.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Get the Pfizer or Moderna booster?


I got Pfizer for both boosters, but I don't think it really matters, all the vaccines dramatically reduced the serious impacts, and that's all I care about.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I believe in science.


 ... LOL ... then why do you say "_The first omicron, not the current omicron so the vaccine will be ineffective against 95+% of COVID that is out there._"? Not only is your statement contradictory - it's effective for the old Omicron only but not the new Omicron and you know for a fact that 95%+ of the population has only the "current" Omicron with "current" being what? If PCR testings don't even distinguish which version of Omicron someone has, then where do you come up with the "science" of what they have? Other than go with the flow of what you read up on as the latest trend.

Okay, let's go with your time line - you caught Covid about a year ago, correct? You got the booster for that, correct? According to the "science" you believe in - you only caught BA1, BA2 or BA3, correct? And now you can only catch BA4 or BA5 and so you don't want the vaccine/booster 'cause it won't be effective against either, correct? Meanwhile ... you accidentally sneezes on someone TODAY who just caught Covid YESTERDAY as well. Does this mean he/she only have the "current" Covid being BA4 or BA5 or does this mean he/she won't catch BA1,2 or 3 from you?


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> I got Pfizer for both boosters, but I don't think it really matters, all the vaccines dramatically reduced the serious impacts, and that's all I care about.


I was hoping my 4th dose would be Pfizer as that's what I received for the first three doses, but the final dose was Moderna. Maybe there's some benefit to the mix and match.....

I'm now waiting for my 5th dose. It would be nice to combine it with the flu shot in the fall - that would be convenient.

I'm a huge believer in these shots. I use to always get the flu, but then I decided to start getting flu shots about 10 years ago. I haven't got the flu since. I'm like superman now. I haven't got COVID either, so they must be working. Sample of one.

ltr


----------



## Beaver101

^ It would be nice (even a dream) that if they're able to merge the Covid booster with the flu shot like a 2 for 1.

Getting the flu shot doesn't mean you won't catch the flu. And giving you super-powers although that would be pretty cool! It just reduces severity or the need for hospitalization should you ever come down with it and have it bad. You can still catch the flu if someone (with him/her being asymptomatic) merely sneezes or even breathe in front of you, trust me.


----------



## like_to_retire

Beaver101 said:


> Getting the flu shot doesn't mean you won't catch the flu.


Apparently, but when you have a first hand experience it's funny how it influences your thinking. You could show me all the data on it you wanted, but experience often trumps rational thinking.

I always hated getting the flu, and no matter how I tried to avoid it, I always got it year after year after year. Then I took a flu shot and for the first time ever (or so it seemed) I didn't get the flu. And so I continued to get the shot every year and still haven't had the flu in ten years.

Given this personal experience, do you think I could ever be convinced that flu shots don't preclude me from getting the flu? Don't discount human nature.

ltr


----------



## james4beach

like_to_retire said:


> I was hoping my 4th dose would be Pfizer as that's what I received for the first three doses, but the final dose was Moderna. Maybe there's some benefit to the mix and match.....


I suspect there is some benefit to mixing them up. I deliberately mixed Moderna (1,2) and Pfizer (3).


----------



## Beaver101

like_to_retire said:


> Apparently, but when you have a first hand experience it's funny how it influences your thinking. You could show me all the data on it you wanted, but experience often trumps rational thinking.


 ... no kidding. If you had followed my posts, even from the beginning, I'm a believer in getting the "annual" flu shot as I was in the same boat as you - see 2nd paragraph.



> I always hated getting the flu, and no matter how I tried to avoid it, I always got it year after year after year. Then I took a flu shot and for the first time ever (or so it seemed) I didn't get the flu. And so I continued to get the shot every year and still haven't had the flu in ten years.


 ... I get the flu every year - in fact, twice a year even in the "summer" time despite I do take the annual flu-shot unlike you who got the shot did NOT get the flu. So that makes you a FIRM believer in the flu-shot, not that I don't believe in it. So I b1tched to my doctor asking "why am I getting the flu when I got the shot?" The response: Did you end up in the hospital? No? So take the shot if you don't want to end up there. End of story. It's similar to Covid, only Covid isn't the flu, it's a new infectious disease that mimic flu-like symptoms, only much deadlier. That's why (like you) I take both Covid vax and the 'annual' flu shot. I'm hoping/waiting a merger of the 2 so I can take my Covid booster and flu - I'm giving a deadline by early October to hear of one. O/w 2 shots-trips.



> Given this personal experience, do you think I could ever be convinced that flu shots don't preclude me from getting the flu? Don't discount human nature.
> 
> ltr


 ... I'm not saying that. You mentioned you "never got the flu after getting shot as that made you like super-man too (LOL). So you're a proponent for that." All, I'm saying oh yes you can still get the flu after your shot, only your symptoms won't be as severe like wheezing and heaving, short of breath, struggling to breathe after coughing a lung out while your fever and chills are subsiding, short of being on a ventilator.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> .... Does this mean he/she only have the "current" Covid being BA4 or BA5 or does this mean he/she won't catch BA1,2 or 3 from you?


Omicron BA.1 was unique in two ways. As well as being wildly contagious, it could break through immunity gained from infections of other COVID variants. Where previous COVID variants swept the population that had no previous immunity, BA.1 and BA.2* re-swept the entire population. In the same way, BA.4 and BA.5 has re-infected people who had any previous COVID variant. Having had BA.2.* was provided no defence against acquiring a BA.4 or BA.5 infection.

There is some talk that it is possible to contract a BA.5 infection multiple times. I haven't seen sequence testing to support or disprove this theory so I consider it conjecture.

Your Omicron BA.1 based vaccine will prevent a BA.5 infection. It might reduce the severity a bit.

Since BA.5 accounts for nearly all of the circulating COVID virus, the vaccine is unlikely to be much of an improvement.

As for combining COVID and flu shots, that question has been answered in good detail. Google is your friend.


----------



## TomB16

For those who are interested in sequencing data....





__





COVID Data Tracker


CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.



covid.cdc.gov


----------



## Beaver101

^ I'll listen to my doctors of which vaccine, shots, et al and when to take them. After-all, I'm under their care.


----------



## Money172375

Don’t need to isolate anymore in ontario even if COVID positive.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/kieran-moore-flu-season-covid-2022-1.6567840


----------



## TomB16

Money172375 said:


> Don’t need to isolate anymore in ontario even if COVID positive.


I am glad for removal of mandated isolation based on a personal love of a free society but I appreciate the opportunity to declare that anyone who goes out into the world while coughing and sneezing heavily is a massively inconsiderate and selfish person. This has always been the case.

Even if it's just a cold, show the world you are a good person by putting on a mask, washing your hands, and avoiding contact with other people.


----------



## Beaver101

^ That piece "advice" can now go into the garbage can. Because it's okay to be sick with Covid, the flu or what have you and do your thing - whether go to school or work. Cool. I'm guessing he's okay with the hospital ERs closures and then healthcare collapse.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I am glad for removal of mandated isolation based on a personal love of a free society but I appreciate the opportunity to declare that anyone who goes out into the world while coughing and sneezing heavily is a massively inconsiderate and selfish person. This has always been the case.
> 
> Even if it's just a cold, show the world you are a good person by putting on a mask, washing your hands, and avoiding contact with other people.


... NO, Dr. Kieran Moore, Ontario's "Chief" fake "Medical" Officer says it's A-OKAY to share and in fact, BE SURE TO GENEROUSLY spread your germs all around so that everybody gets it.

And now boy and girls, be good and get your vax - right. Up his.


----------



## Money172375

I’m not going to comment on the decision, but remember when Dr. Moore was brought in after his previous region of Kingston did so well during the initial waves?

remember this guy?


----------



## Beaver101

^ Dr. Williams saw the light and got out asap. The Moore guy just like the money and good at axx(with big round ones)-kissing.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... NO, Dr. Kieran Moore, Ontario's "Chief" fake "Medical" Officer says it's A-OKAY to share and in fact, BE SURE TO GENEROUSLY spread your germs all around so that everybody gets it.


Beaver, I respect the hyperbole to bolster your case but your attempt to re-frame this issue seems likely to be disingenuous.


This seems entirely reasonable to me. Surely, this is not too much to ask of people?





__





Public health measures and advice


Learn how to protect yourself, your family and your community from COVID-19 and other respiratory illnesses.




covid-19.ontario.ca





*"If you’ve been exposed to someone from another household with symptoms of COVID-19 or a positive test result*
You are required to:


self-monitor for symptoms for 10 days after your last exposure
wear a mask, avoid activities where mask removal is necessary (such as dining out, high contact sports) and follow all other public health measures if leaving home
do not visit any highest-risk settings (such as long-term care or retirement homes) or people who may be at higher risk of illness (such as seniors) for 10 days after your last exposure"


----------



## Beaver101

^ Hyperbole? 

Then define the word "required" as in "You are required to:" there. 

Who says I'm "required" to even pay any attention of what you or that Moore guy is saying after he rears his head some months later making this announcement. 

Think of it realistically. No one was paying attention before and do you think anyone (other than you and I plus a few others)) would be paying attention now? No, and another no, and another HELL NO.

As if I don't do as "required", I'm gonna to be hauled to jail ... or how about a fine? ..... YAWN!!!!


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> ^ It would be nice (even a dream) that if they're able to merge the Covid booster with the flu shot like a 2 for 1.
> 
> Getting the flu shot doesn't mean you won't catch the flu. And giving you super-powers although that would be pretty cool! It just reduces severity or the need for hospitalization should you ever come down with it and have it bad. You can still catch the flu if someone (with him/her being asymptomatic) merely sneezes or even breathe in front of you, trust me.


You just gave a good reason for cancelling AriveCan. Vaccination doesn't prevent covid or prevent its spread. A useless intrusion in the life of the travelling public.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> You just gave a good reason for cancelling AriveCan. Vaccination doesn't prevent covid or prevent its spread. A useless intrusion in the life of the travelling public.


Yeah I agree, ArriveCan is not doing much good. It's an additional impediment to travel and has outlived its usefulness.

If vaccination snuffed out transmission then I'd say it's worthwhile, but that's not the case. Vaccinated people do spread Covid around. For some time, I've suspected that overconfident vaccinated people may even be driving the spread, since they have a misconception that "they aren't the problem".

And now additionally we know that immunity wanes after a few months. So even though vaccination keeps people safer, it entirely depends on how many months ago.

Get rid of ArriveCan! I'm scared of this becoming a persist pain in the neck that we can't ever get rid of.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> You just gave a good reason for cancelling AriveCan. Vaccination doesn't prevent covid or prevent its spread. A useless intrusion in the life of the travelling public.


 .. I didn't know I was that effective. Like we all don't know the airlines (aside from J4B above) have been screaming their heads off to have ArriveCan ditched.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Yeah I agree, ArriveCan is not doing much good. It's an additional impediment to travel and has outlived its usefulness.
> ....
> 
> Get rid of ArriveCan! I'm scared of this becoming a persist pain in the neck that we can't ever get rid of.


I don't think it was ever really useful.
I think that the Liberals wanted to put a tracking app on everyones phone and they saw COVID19 as a convenient excuse.

The fact that the entrance regulations were based around the app, not the actions taken makes it pretty obvious it wasn't about protecting us from COVID.

Really is the app vaccination record better than the provincial barcode?


----------



## Money172375

MrMatt said:


> I don't think it was ever really useful.
> I think that the Liberals wanted to put a tracking app on everyones phone and they saw COVID19 as a convenient excuse.
> 
> The fact that the entrance regulations were based around the app, not the actions taken makes it pretty obvious it wasn't about protecting us from COVID.
> 
> Really is the app vaccination record better than the provincial barcode?


I would think it made the process faster at the border. Ie. Receiving information electronically before the person crosses the border vs. Showing a physical vax receipt. a Lot of people complained that they were never asked to show the ArriveCan QR code…but it’s obvious the border guards saw all the info when they scanned your passport. 

I think some sort of App will remain. Somewhere where you enter your passport details and customs declaration before crossing. Should be optional but I think that’s the world we’re heading towards. 

It Should allow travel across the border to occur quicker if the Border agents know in advance who’s crossing that day. i Would think some level of pre-screening should speed things up.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> I would think it made the process faster at the border. Ie. Receiving information electronically before the person crosses the border vs. Showing a physical vax receipt. a Lot of people complained that they were never asked to show the ArriveCan QR code…but it’s obvious the border guards saw all the info when they scanned your passport.
> 
> I think some sort of App will remain. Somewhere where you enter your passport details and customs declaration before crossing. Should be optional but I think that’s the world we’re heading towards.
> 
> It Should allow travel across the border to occur quicker if the Border agents know in advance who’s crossing that day. i Would think some level of pre-screening should speed things up.


You have a constitutional right to enter and leave the country, filling out a form, or showing documentation is a reasonable restriction.
But house arrest and or thousands in fines for not pre-screening with a smartphone app, that's unacceptable.


----------



## andrewf

I'm not aware of any Canadian being prevented from entering or leaving Canada. There was always ways to do it, however it was less convenient for a time.


----------



## Beaver101

^ It's known as "self-house arrest" to a freedumber.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> I'm not aware of any Canadian being prevented from entering or leaving Canada. There was always ways to do it, however it was less convenient for a time.


Being put into house arrest or fined thousands of dollars is not an acceptable infringement on that right... simply for not installing their app on your smartphone.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> I'm not aware of any Canadian being prevented from entering or leaving Canada. There was always ways to do it, however it was less convenient for a time.


Maybe, but I have quite a few family members who aren't computer savvy. They don't use smart phones and they don't carry laptops.

ArriveCan makes them nervous because originally, people were getting fines for not filling this out. And CBSA still talks as if they are just showing "leeway" for those who don't fill ArriveCan. They still talk as if using the software is required.

There needs to be a paper or verbal declaration alternative to this kind of thing. Not everyone uses smartphones and laptops.



MrMatt said:


> You have a constitutional right to enter and leave the country, filling out a form, or showing documentation is a reasonable restriction.
> But house arrest and or thousands in fines for not pre-screening with a smartphone app, that's unacceptable.


Completely agree. It should be possible to show documentation at the border, as we do with every other kind of screening.


----------



## james4beach

My mom is now afraid to travel abroad, because there's no way she can fill ArriveCan when she returns.

How is that fair to my mom, a citizen? Not everyone uses computers.

There are also computer users who aren't quite expert level (my dad). There can be endless technological challenges when travelling, such as roaming problems, dead batteries, inability to opportunistically get onto WiFi. I think some young people in the Canadian government, probably under age 60, got this stupid idea that everyone uses smartphones and has data roaming capabilities all the time.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I don't disagree that some older folks are not tech-savvy (computer or smartphone (an oxymoron IMO) wise) but how did she book her flights et al? Did she not enlist a travel agency or some help there?


----------



## Beaver101

China locks down 21 million in Chengdu in COVID-19 outbreak

Oh, better post this bit first before Tom gets to flung from his poop bag at me, his personal turd on this forum.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> My mom is now afraid to travel abroad, because there's no way she can fill ArriveCan when she returns.
> 
> How is that fair to my mom, a citizen? Not everyone uses computers.


Are you blaming Trudeau for this or is this Trump's fault, too?

I no longer feel sorry for anyone that voted for Trudeau and suffers due to his policies. You got what you wanted, now you have to live with it.


----------



## Beaver101

^ And I feel particularly sorry for any American who voted for Trump, lying over at Hart's Island. For one, they don't even have a name marked to their grave.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ^ And I feel particularly sorry for any American who voted for Trump, lying over at Hart's Island. For one, they don't even have a name marked to their grave.


I thought I'd read your post and I wasn't disappointed that you are lying again. Hart Island is a public cemetery that has been in operation since 1864, mostly used for unclaimed bodies. Many bodies were unidentified which is why there were no names on the grave.

No wonder you are one of the most ignored people on this site. You lie non-stop and are nothing but a troll.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> My mom is now afraid to travel abroad, because there's no way she can fill ArriveCan when she returns.
> 
> How is that fair to my mom, a citizen? Not everyone uses computers.
> 
> There are also computer users who aren't quite expert level (my dad). There can be endless technological challenges when travelling, such as roaming problems, dead batteries, inability to opportunistically get onto WiFi. I think some young people in the Canadian government, probably under age 60, got this stupid idea that everyone uses smartphones and has data roaming capabilities all the time.


I do understand what your mom is going through. My dad doesn't speak english, does not have a computer, email, or smart phone, he has a flip phone. When he used to travel, he would bring home extra copies the Customs declaration form to enter Canada. We would fill it out for him before he left his trip. 

His last trip, we had someone fill everything out for him electronically on Arrive Can and had it printed off for him. There are almost always ways to do it, but it is a pain. If she is visiting people, they could help, if not, hotels will help with it too.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> I thought I'd read your post and I wasn't disappointed that you are lying again. Hart Island is a public cemetery that has been in operation since 1864, mostly used for unclaimed bodies. Many bodies were unidentified which is why there were no names on the grave.


 ... of course, that cemetary was used since "1864" and when did Covid started? year 2020? So how convenient of the Dump to just dump those unclaimed bodies, unidentified bodies dead from Covid. I don't suppose those were the homeless too which means thousands of New Yorkers were perfect for this mass graves. I hope you and your twin Dump sleep well at night ... the latter soon in a cell by himself.



> No wonder you are one of the most ignored people on this site. You lie non-stop and are nothing but a troll.


 ... no need to drag others here to do your cover. 

So why aren't you ignoring me, AGAIN? What, the 10th time? 'Cause I lie non-stop and "only you tell the truth and nothing but the truth as your life swore on it". It wouldn't surprise me one bit that you swore on the Bible to lie through your rotten teeth. 

Yeah, I'm a troll but you're the REAL one although you can't do that right even. LMAO.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> My mom is now afraid to travel abroad, because there's no way she can fill ArriveCan when she returns.
> 
> How is that fair to my mom, a citizen? Not everyone uses computers.


Which is why everyone, except the Liberals, thinks this the app is bad.
That's the problem, the Liberal party is not at all concerned with fairness and human rights, I don't know how anyone can really support them. Sure they have some appealing trinkets, but are people really that unconcerned with human rights and fairness?


----------



## damian13ster

The answer is yes.
They don't give a **** as long as they aren't personally affected.
I will go further - in multiple cases it would appear they enjoy human rights of OTHERS being broken.

But that's precisely the consequence of fascist authoritarian ideology that current government espouses


----------



## TomB16

A robust study out of Portugal suggests previous COVID infections provide substantial protection against BA.5.









Risk of BA.5 Infection among Persons Exposed to Previous SARS-CoV-2 Variants | NEJM


Correspondence from The New England Journal of Medicine — Risk of BA.5 Infection among Persons Exposed to Previous SARS-CoV-2 Variants



www.nejm.org






It bothers me there is so little study of natural immunity. I'm sure Pfizer would have us vax every 6 months for eternity but I believe the future is with natural immunity.

This is the first decent study of a large group, although this study does bring some unanswered questions. I hope more studies of this sort come to light and this data can be verified or disproven.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> Oh, better post this bit first before Tom gets to flung from his poop bag at me, his personal turd on this forum.


Zero covid is a humanitarian nightmare. There is little we can do about it.

We could work on transitioning the production of durable goods out of China, even partially, but we have absolutely zero interest in that.


I was just trying to suggest that, sometimes, you feel warm in the hand, Beaver.


----------



## Money172375

Am I reading the news Right that the US has approved a ba4/5 omicron booster and Canada approved a ba1 booster?


----------



## TomB16

Looks right, M.

That is ideal for people who look at vaccines like they are the only lighter in a crack house.


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> Zero covid is a humanitarian nightmare. There is little we can do about it.
> 
> We could work on transitioning the production of durable goods out of China, even partially, but we have absolutely zero interest in that.
> 
> 
> I was just trying to suggest that, sometimes, you feel warm in the hand, Beaver.


There is a lot of reshoring taking place. It takes a long time.


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> There is a lot of reshoring taking place. It takes a long time.


That would be great.

It would be nice if we could bump some production to Vietnam or Malaysia but that also seems extremely slow.

Clearly, anything that is labour intensive is not going to be made in North America in a way that is profitable.


----------



## Beaver101

Unions voice concern about Ontario lifting five-day isolation rule

^ That's only 1 industry commenting.

But then do we need to say more when the latest message from Ontario's fake CMO K. Moore's:

_Spread the love for Covid (it's free!),
Spread the joy of getting sick with it (what's a few hacks anyways, ya whimps!)
Share it with your family, your friends (your love ones, ain't his)
Share it with everybody including strangers (so don't be so damned selfish!)
Covid is Your Love for the Season!!!!_

Meanwhile he hides in his den all masked up.

And somehow I feel like a guinea pig for someone's (above) experiment. Are Ontarians that naive?


----------



## Synergy

TomB16 said:


> It bothers me there is so little study of natural immunity. I'm sure Pfizer would have us vax every 6 months for eternity but I believe the future is with natural immunity.
> 
> This is the first decent study of a large group, although this study does bring some unanswered questions. I hope more studies of this sort come to light and this data can be verified or disproven.


This is how its always been. There's no money in promoting natural immunity. We have a pill for every ill.


----------



## Beaver101

https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-s-science-table-members-would-have-advised-against-scrapping-covid-isolation-1.60535

Do common-sensed, non-axx kissing Ontarians need to say more?


----------



## TomB16

A lockdown is not a scientific problem. Lockdowns are political.

It would always be better to isolate and keep people at home. That was true long before covid.

It comes down to finding a balance between freedom and health. This is a subjective discission... Hence... Politics.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> A lockdown is not a scientific problem. Lockdowns are political.


 ... what lockdown? Giving you the leeway here - define a "lockdown" over here in Canada, not elsewhere in the world. Canada never had a lockdown. Anything that remotely resembled a "lockdown" was a "curfew" that occurred primarily in Quebec [or LTC and senior homes in Ontario]. No other province or territory as far as I'm aware even had a "curfew", let alone a "lockdown". And speaking of LTCs and senior homes, they're not visited by any "gagged cry-baby" anyways.

Now I would believe you if you said we had "restrictions" and even those were not "freedomless" as if you had your windows and doors bolted by lockdown cops. Well, if you're equating not being able to "travel" out of country or out of province "non-essentially" as being "locked-down", then you're no better than that "gagged cry-baby", only alot older.



> It would always be better to isolate and keep people at home. That was true long before covid.


 ... seriously? People with the flu would isolate and be kept from home? By whom? Their employer? Their mom and dad?



> It comes down to finding a balance between freedom and health. This is a subjective discission... Hence... Politics.


 ... when you have a "pandemic of a deadly infectious disease" which is "science-based of which I presume you follow", then logic says health over-rides freedom. It's like asking "do you want your life OR your money"? Not BOTH here. If you want the money and not your life, then I cannot help you further.

Otherwise you're allowing the selfish "individual" freedom to overtake if not impacting alot of other people's health, no? It's like you (and those you love) don't care about dying so some other people can "exercise their freedom(s)" to be out and sharing their germs with you.

Bottomline: And it has NOTHING to do with politics unless you want to make it political. Remember your own saying "I(You) believe in science' and I don't suppose Covid was generated from Trudeau/Ford's axx? 

Signed,
Your personal turd


----------



## zinfit

MrMatt said:


> Being put into house arrest or fined thousands of dollars is not an acceptable infringement on that right... simply for not installing their app on your smartphone.


I have friends who don't have smartphones and are totally tech illiterate. And we have cases were people with phones can't get the app to work. It happens. They put you on a14 day quarantine when the provinces have listed quarantines fir people have tested positive.. Again vaccination status does little in preventing or preventing the spreading of covid so come up with the rational for this useless process.


----------



## zinfit

Beaver101 said:


> ^ And I feel particularly sorry for any American who voted for Trump, lying over at Hart's Island. For one, they don't even have a name marked to their grave.


Trump's "operation warp speed" brought us the covid vaccines. Not a Trump fan but I am not sure what Trudeau brought to the plate accept begging the US for vaccines and giving the Chinese millions for a wasted vaccine program.


----------



## TomB16

To be fair to vaccines, there is plenty of data to show they prevent a significant, but not total, number of COVID infections.

I have no intention of taking any additional COVID vaccinations, although this is not in stone.

A few months ago, we were in a Mexican airport and AriveCAN went to crap. I rebooted my phone and struggled for a bit. As we moved along, we arrived in a secure area with no Cellular or Wifi. We spent four hours in line, waiting to go through security. Ultimately, I was able to get it sorted out on the ramp when we got back to Canada but it was a bit stressful.

ArriveCAN should be an efficiency but not absolutely required. Android isn't nearly good enough to trust my reentry to Canada to it. iOS is only a bit better.


----------



## zinfit

TomB16 said:


> To be fair to vaccines, there is plenty of data to show they prevent a significant, but not total, number of COVID infections.


they reduce severe outcomes that is what the data shows. After a few months their protection drops dramatically.. What has happened the severe covid strains have evolved into a much weaker omicron virus. If we follow the science AriveCan should be history.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> Trump's "operation warp speed" brought us the covid vaccines. Not a Trump fan but I am not sure what Trudeau brought to the plate accept begging the US for vaccines and giving the Chinese millions for a wasted vaccine program.


 ... sure, the Dump's signing of Operation Warp Speed "brought on the vaccines" as if he had a choice. You might want to ask if he didn't sign, who else would? VP Pence? While millions of Americans were dropping dead like flies to the extent they had to resort using the mass grave over at Hart's Island because those bodies were piling up and smelling with decomposition in them cargo trucks/vans in New York. Btw, the Dump didn't want to die either.

Of course, Trudeau had to beg for the USA for the vaccines (bought by Canadian "taxpayers" fyi) given Canada didn't even have a facility to store them, let alone produce them.


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> I do understand what your mom is going through. My dad doesn't speak english, does not have a computer, email, or smart phone, he has a flip phone. When he used to travel, he would bring home extra copies the Customs declaration form to enter Canada. We would fill it out for him before he left his trip.
> 
> His last trip, we had someone fill everything out for him electronically on Arrive Can and had it printed off for him. There are almost always ways to do it, but it is a pain. If she is visiting people, they could help, if not, hotels will help with it too.


It's great if you can find someone to help fill ArriveCan but this is too much of an obstacle. You both need to enlist someone for the computer, AND for the hardcopy printout. Those are really huge obstacles.

There's a lot of private information that goes into this, so even if someone like hotel staff is willing to help, this really is not appropriate. My parents are very privacy conscious, and that's smart of them.

You really shouldn't be giving some stranger access to your birth date, passport # etc. Not only that, but this is happening on hardware you can't trust (some stranger's equipment)... these are very bad computer practices.

My parents wouldn't have access to anyone _trustworthy_ to get that kind of help during a trip. The closest we can get is, maybe I can fill ArriveCan remotely for them over the phone. They won't have a printout from it but at least it would be filled out, and I can verbally read out the reference code it produces.

This weekend I'm going to write a letter to my MP saying that an alternative to ArriveCan is necessary, either paper-based or verbal declaration. It's become an impediment to free movement of citizens -- I'm seeing it first hand. Based on professional experience my guess would be that something like 70% of people are able to easily use ArriveCan. The remaining 30% will struggle, encounter significant technical obstacles, or just not travel.

*Another viable solution would be to add kiosks in Canadian airports so people can self-declare this stuff*. The problem is that pushing that task to the traveller's hardware is a really stupid and error-prone idea.

Saying "oh just get help from a stranger" is not a great solution. It kind of also misses the point that this has become an impediment to travel, which restricts mobility and normal activities.


----------



## MrMatt

zinfit said:


> Trump's "operation warp speed" brought us the covid vaccines. Not a Trump fan but I am not sure what Trudeau brought to the plate accept begging the US for vaccines and giving the Chinese millions for a wasted vaccine program.


I think that was a miscalculation by Trudeau.

He seems to have this bizarre anti-US pro-China stance. I kind of understand how he can, I think he's simply wrong, and people died because of it.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> This weekend I'm going to write a letter to my MP saying that an alternative to ArriveCan is necessary, either paper-based or verbal declaration. It's become an impediment to free movement of citizens -- I'm seeing it first hand. Based on professional experience my guess would be that something like 70% of people are able to easily use ArriveCan. The remaining 30% will struggle, encounter significant technical obstacles, or just not travel.


I think this is a good idea, but honestly if your MP is Liberal it doesn't matter, it's party policy to support it, and the opposition already opposes it.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> It's great if you can find someone to help fill ArriveCan but this is too much of an obstacle. You both need to enlist someone for the computer, AND for the hardcopy printout. Those are really huge obstacles.
> 
> There's a lot of private information that goes into this, so even if someone like hotel staff is willing to help, this really is not appropriate. My parents are very privacy conscious, and that's smart of them.
> 
> You really shouldn't be giving some stranger access to your birth date, passport # etc. Not only that, but this is happening on hardware you can't trust (some stranger's equipment)... these are very bad computer practices.
> 
> My parents wouldn't have access to anyone _trustworthy_ to get that kind of help during a trip. The closest we can get is, maybe I can fill ArriveCan remotely for them over the phone. They won't have a printout from it but at least it would be filled out, and I can verbally read out the reference code it produces.
> 
> This weekend I'm going to write a letter to my MP saying that an alternative to ArriveCan is necessary, either paper-based or verbal declaration. It's become an impediment to free movement of citizens -- I'm seeing it first hand. Based on professional experience my guess would be that something like 70% of people are able to easily use ArriveCan. The remaining 30% will struggle, encounter significant technical obstacles, or just not travel.
> 
> *Another viable solution would be to add kiosks in Canadian airports so people can self-declare this stuff*. The problem is that pushing that task to the traveller's hardware is a really stupid and error-prone idea.
> 
> Saying "oh just get help from a stranger" is not a great solution. It kind of also misses the point that this has become an impediment to travel, which restricts mobility and normal activities.


Have you apologized to your parents yet? People like you are the reason people like Trudeau get elected and are able to enact stupid policies.


----------



## zinfit

The Minister of Transportation Omar A is away out of his league and is a very stubborn individual. May-be Trudeau will replace him and then the ArriveCan app can die.


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> Have you apologized to your parents yet? People like you are the reason people like Trudeau get elected and are able to enact stupid policies.


They vote for an idiot with bad policy, then they're frustrated when they get bad policy.



zinfit said:


> The Minister of Transportation Omar A is away out of his league and is a very stubborn individual. May-be Trudeau will replace him and then the ArriveCan app can die.


If Trudeau wanted it gone, it would be gone.
Remember SNC-Lavalin? Clear direct proof of criminal action, and who's left standing?

No significant position is taken without the approval of Trudeau/Butts.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> It's great if you can find someone to help fill ArriveCan but this is too much of an obstacle. You both need to enlist someone for the computer, AND for the hardcopy printout. Those are really huge obstacles.
> 
> There's a lot of private information that goes into this, so even if someone like hotel staff is willing to help, this really is not appropriate. My parents are very privacy conscious, and that's smart of them.
> 
> You really shouldn't be giving some stranger access to your birth date, passport # etc. Not only that, but this is happening on hardware you can't trust (some stranger's equipment)... these are very bad computer practices.
> 
> My parents wouldn't have access to anyone _trustworthy_ to get that kind of help during a trip. The closest we can get is, maybe I can fill ArriveCan remotely for them over the phone. They won't have a printout from it but at least it would be filled out, and I can verbally read out the reference code it produces.
> 
> This weekend I'm going to write a letter to my MP saying that an alternative to ArriveCan is necessary, either paper-based or verbal declaration. It's become an impediment to free movement of citizens -- I'm seeing it first hand. Based on professional experience my guess would be that something like 70% of people are able to easily use ArriveCan. The remaining 30% will struggle, encounter significant technical obstacles, or just not travel.
> 
> *Another viable solution would be to add kiosks in Canadian airports so people can self-declare this stuff*. The problem is that pushing that task to the traveller's hardware is a really stupid and error-prone idea.
> 
> Saying "oh just get help from a stranger" is not a great solution. It kind of also misses the point that this has become an impediment to travel, which restricts mobility and normal activities.


 ... yes, push your MP. What is he being paid for? Sit on his duffs and rebuffing on CMF?!!!


----------



## HappilyRetired

MrMatt said:


> They vote for an idiot with bad policy, then they're frustrated when they get bad policy.


And some of them get sick of living in a province or state run by people they elected so they move to another province or state and then immediately start voting for the same type of people that caused them to flee in the first place.

But what they really should do is man up, stay in the hellhole that they were responsible for creating, and then vote to change it instead of running away leaving someone else to clean up the mess.


----------



## Beaver101

^ And what, let the FreeDumbers cry their eyes out?!!!!


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> And some of them get sick of living in a province or state run by people they elected so they move to another province or state and then immediately start voting for the same type of people that caused them to flee in the first place.
> 
> But what they really should do is man up, stay in the hellhole that they were responsible for creating, and then vote to change it instead of running away leaving someone else to clean up the mess.


I think that they simply don't understand the consequences of their actions.
The problem with a lot of these bad policies, is that if you don't actually think about the consequences, they might actually sound like a good idea.


----------



## HappilyRetired

MrMatt said:


> I think that they simply don't understand the consequences of their actions.


Is that because they raised to believe that nothing is their fault?


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> Is that because they raised to believe that nothing is their fault?


I don't think so, and I think this has veered off track for this thread.

Back to COVID19 and ARRIVECAN app.
I think the initial idea might have been to have everything digitized,easier to verify and quicker with less contact.

Not a bad goal quite honestly, but in their zest to "encourage" the use, they've effectively criminalized the exercise of your Charter Rights.
Use this app or we will fine and jail you.
There is no real public safety benefit to the app, it just might make things a bit easier for CBSA.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> It's great if you can find someone to help fill ArriveCan but this is too much of an obstacle. You both need to enlist someone for the computer, AND for the hardcopy printout. Those are really huge obstacles.
> 
> There's a lot of private information that goes into this, so even if someone like hotel staff is willing to help, this really is not appropriate. My parents are very privacy conscious, and that's smart of them.
> 
> You really shouldn't be giving some stranger access to your birth date, passport # etc. Not only that, but this is happening on hardware you can't trust (some stranger's equipment)... these are very bad computer practices.
> 
> My parents wouldn't have access to anyone _trustworthy_ to get that kind of help during a trip. The closest we can get is, maybe I can fill ArriveCan remotely for them over the phone. They won't have a printout from it but at least it would be filled out, and I can verbally read out the reference code it produces.
> 
> This weekend I'm going to write a letter to my MP saying that an alternative to ArriveCan is necessary, either paper-based or verbal declaration. It's become an impediment to free movement of citizens -- I'm seeing it first hand. Based on professional experience my guess would be that something like 70% of people are able to easily use ArriveCan. The remaining 30% will struggle, encounter significant technical obstacles, or just not travel.
> 
> *Another viable solution would be to add kiosks in Canadian airports so people can self-declare this stuff*. The problem is that pushing that task to the traveller's hardware is a really stupid and error-prone idea.
> 
> Saying "oh just get help from a stranger" is not a great solution. It kind of also misses the point that this has become an impediment to travel, which restricts mobility and normal activities.


I do agree it is difficult for those like our parents. My dad won't travel without one of us, and even then he is hesitant. I could be wrong, but I thought that you could enter the arrive can information ahead of time and print. I would also not allow any of my personal id to a stranger, but I would be okay, having everything pre-entered, and then just go some where to print. 

It's always very interesting seeing these accessibility issues. Even your idea of self declaring at the airport would be difficult from someone like my dad who doesn't speak english. It's a balance between 'security' and the ability to travel. I personally think the Arrive Can has run its course.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> It's a balance between 'security' and the ability to travel. I personally think the Arrive Can has run its course.


That's the point, it isn't about security.
You should not require an app and a smartphone to enter and leave the country.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> That's the point, it isn't about security.
> You should not require an app and a smartphone to enter and leave the country.


 ... and what? Miss out on the good influencers? By golly, can't do that without a smartphone ... the ingenuity of the massed believers.


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> That's the point, it isn't about security.
> You should not require an app and a smartphone to enter and leave the country.


There was a benefit in the beginning, especially with tracking and the variants. I no longer see any reason one would have it, other than perhaps follow up (we know someone not fully vaccinated to due medical issues) and it was a follow up after they arrived back to Canada. Now, I think it's an added step with little use.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> They vote for an idiot with bad policy, then they're frustrated when they get bad policy.


I generally think the Liberals had good policies through the pandemic. Not perfect but given how complex this situation has been, I think they did a great job overall.

Overall, I vote for people with good policies. It doesn't mean every policy or implementation will be great -- and I criticize as the case may be.

Management of the pandemic has been quite good in Canada. I've kept in touch with friends in the US, UK and Australia over these years and there's no question we've had one of the better experiences here in Canada.


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> I could be wrong, but I thought that you could enter the arrive can information ahead of time and print.


You can only get the receipt (printout) from ArriveCan when you answer the questions about arrival, which is possible starting at 72 hours before arrival.

So if my parents are leaving on a two week trip today, it's impossible to fill ArriveCan until much closer to their return.


----------



## james4beach

Got some text messages from a friend in Ontario who's in job training / classes right now. Of the roughly 60 people, 12 have come down with COVID so far and will have to re-schedule for the next training sessions in the future.

Their instructor also became infected and is out sick, so there is some slowdown due to this staffing shortage (need an expert for training).

There are going to be a ton of COVID-related sick and absent people in the coming months. There's already so much circulating right now, and this is summer! Just imagine how many people will be infected as they're all crammed back into offices and work events together.

I still think ... if you have to go into offices or meetings, wear a KN95 mask and get used to it.


----------



## Beaver101

^ And school will be starting soon. I think you heard Ontario has gotten rid of the need to isolate even Covid positive, courtesy of our fake CMO. Just in time to be "sharing", if not learning.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I generally think the Liberals had good policies through the pandemic. Not perfect but given how complex this situation has been, I think they did a great job overall.


Aspects were good.

But they totally screwed up several initiatives.
For example they didn't properly close and quarantine at the border.



> Overall, I vote for people with good policies. It doesn't mean every policy or implementation will be great -- and I criticize as the case may be.
> 
> Management of the pandemic has been quite good in Canada. I've kept in touch with friends in the US, UK and Australia over these years and there's no question we've had one of the better experiences here in Canada.


I agree, but most of the response was done (rightly) at the Provinical level.
At the Federal level, it was a comedy of errors.

From not shutting down the borders, not maintaining our pandemic supplies, and sending what little we had to China.
Also the flagrant violation of travel restrictions by our PM was disgusting.


----------



## Beaver101

Opinion | Ontario scrapping isolation rules sends a message that we don’t have to care anymore

Check the polls with the article to see the sentiments of the majority of the "public", re that 1 axx-kissing fake CMO's (Ontario, Canada) and what they think of his "experiment".


----------



## Beaver101

China locks down 65 million, discourages holiday travel

Tom would love to see this headline. Gotta keep him busy on this forum.

Signed,
Tom's Personal Turd


----------



## Beaver101

Make overdose education mandatory in B.C. schools amid drug emergency, advocates say

Hmmm.... I wonder what the FreeDumbers' reaction on this? Likely, what???? "Mandatory education, god-damn it, better not be happening in Alberta!!!!"


----------



## Beaver101

'I assure you that they are going to stay in school right to June:' Education minister promises academic year uninterrupted by COVID

Got to record this (post #*3431*) *PROMISE* coming from Lecce's mouth since any promise coming from a politician's mouth is worth as good as <fill-in-the-blank>. [Less than toilet paper for the fill-in-the-blank IM"H"O.]


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> China locks down 65 million, discourages holiday travel
> 
> Tom would love to see this headline. Gotta keep him busy on this forum.
> 
> Signed,
> Tom's Personal Turd


Good morning, Beaver.

The Chinese lock downs are a nightmare. Lock downs threaten to destabilize the global economy more than the Ukraine war.

Everything we own or buy needs Chinese parts. Made in Canada/America vehicles need loads of parts from China.

... and then there is the matter of a third of a billion people essentially under house arrest. We know from previous displays of incompetence, Chinese citizens will die of starvation.

This is really, really not good.

I appreciate your contributions and your friendship, Beaver. You are not a turd. I was merely pointing out some of your posts feel warm and moist when I pick them up.


----------



## andrewf

I suspect even if they do reimpose some distancing/masking requirements (unlikely, from this government), it is unlikely in person education will be interrupted.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> I suspect even if they do reimpose some distancing/masking requirements (unlikely, from this government), it is unlikely in person education will be interrupted.


 ... of course not, Leccee made a PROMISE (and this is in writing on the front page news) there'll be no interruption on classes meaning every kid is EXPECTED to be in school every "school" day, even they are Covid positive or have the flu. Time of sharing at least, if not learning.

Mind you, the (all?) schools were supposedly upgraded on their HVAC to include HEPA filters to "reduce" Covid. Like it's gonna to work ... on germs.

In a way this is good, as parents are EXPECTED to be at work everyday instead of babysitting their kids at home (if they do babysit).


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Good morning, Beaver.
> 
> The Chinese lock downs are a nightmare. Lock downs threaten to destabilize the global economy more than the Ukraine war.
> 
> Everything we own or buy needs Chinese parts. Made in Canada/America vehicles need loads of parts from China.
> 
> ... and then there is the matter of a third of a billion people essentially under house arrest. We know from previous displays of incompetence, Chinese citizens will die of starvation.
> 
> This is really, really not good.


 ... just be glad you live in Canada. 



> I appreciate your contributions and your friendship, Beaver. You are not a turd. I was merely pointing out some of your posts feel warm and moist when I pick them up.


 ... LOL ... now I'm not a turd.


----------



## TomB16

I have never viewed you in a harshly negative light, Beaver.

Forgive me if I have misjudged but your posting style seems to be reasonably direct. You speak your mind. If you feel someone is out to lunch, you call them out. Out of respect for you, I have exchanged posts with you in this light.

Hate the game, not the player.

I have nothing but love for you, Beaver. You are the best dam poster on this site.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver.

I'll bet you would like to respond to my post. I imagine it is burning you up, right now. You probably have a response typed, ready to post. But, you are exerting the sum of your life energy to resist posting. Stay strong, my friend! Savour this moment while you can!

Congratulations on achieving 10,000 posts, Beaver. May your life be filled with low hanging flexible, poplar, branches.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> I suspect even if they do reimpose some distancing/masking requirements (unlikely, from this government), it is unlikely in person education will be interrupted.


According to 630 CHED radio, only 8% of parents are concerned about in-person learning.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Beaver.
> 
> I'll bet you would like to respond to my post. I imagine it is burning you up, right now. You probably have a response typed, ready to post. But, you are exerting the sum of your life energy to resist posting. Stay strong, my friend! Savour this moment while you can!
> 
> Congratulations on achieving 10,000 posts, Beaver. May your life be filled with low hanging flexible, poplar, branches.
> 
> View attachment 23616


 ... thanks for the congrats! And you had to take a screenshot to highlight the "10K" posts (which I just noticed). Took me a little more than a decade. And now it's onto the 20K mark ... well, now it's up to 10,001.... with more posts coming up! on Covid too! 

Btw, andrewf is already more than 15K and abit older than me on this forum ... holy.


----------



## Beaver101

Is COVID-19 winding down? Scientists say no.

Don't take my words. Follow the science .. or the scientists as per article above. 

One simple question: Is Covid19 winding down? Answer= NO!


----------



## TomB16

The FDA just approved Pfizer BA.4/5 vaccine.

Can anyone tell us how many people the vaccine was tested on, to gain approval? Anyone?

This is a great opportunity to show us you read the trials, instead of criticising the people who actually do the reading and present information.


----------



## TomB16

I was going to give this 24 hours but the responses will be the same, regardless of how long I leave it.

Answer: 0 people, 8 mice


----------



## Beaver101

^ 


TomB16 said:


> I was going to give this 24 hours but the responses will be the same, regardless of how long I leave it.
> 
> Answer: 0 people, 8 mice


 ... so are you concerned? Even Bell Media ain't re-inventing the wheel.


----------



## Birder

TomB16 said:


> Answer: 0 people, 8 mice


I wonder if those mice had the 2 dose series before they got their booster...


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ^
> ... so are you concerned? Even Bell Media ain't re-inventing the wheel.


Are you arguing in favour of no human testing for vaccines?


----------



## Birder

TomB16 said:


> Are you arguing in favour of no human testing for vaccines?


I guess Beaver is a rodent just like mice, so probably would have a similar response to the vaccine.


----------



## bgc_fan

TomB16 said:


> The FDA just approved Pfizer BA.4/5 vaccine.
> 
> Can anyone tell us how many people the vaccine was tested on, to gain approval? Anyone?
> 
> This is a great opportunity to show us you read the trials, instead of criticising the people who actually do the reading and present information.


Not sure what you're reading, but I read at least 600 for Pfizer and 800 for Moderna.








Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: FDA Authorizes Moderna, Pfizer-BioNTech Bivalent COVID-19 Vaccines for Use as a Booster Dose


The FDA authorized bivalent formulations of the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine and the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine for use as a single booster dose.




www.fda.gov





Edit: And this is dated 31 Aug.


----------



## HappilyRetired

bgc_fan said:


> Not sure what you're reading, but I read at least 600 for Pfizer and 800 for Moderna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: FDA Authorizes Moderna, Pfizer-BioNTech Bivalent COVID-19 Vaccines for Use as a Booster Dose
> 
> 
> The FDA authorized bivalent formulations of the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine and the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine for use as a single booster dose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fda.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: And this is dated 31 Aug.


"To evaluate the effectiveness of a single booster dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, Bivalent for individuals 12 years of age and older, the FDA analyzed immune response data among approximately 600 adults greater than 55 years of age who had previously received a 2-dose primary series and one booster dose with the monovalent Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine. These participants received a second booster dose of either the monovalent Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine or Pfizer-BioNTech’s investigational bivalent COVID-19 vaccine (original and omicron BA.1) 4.7 to 13.1 months after the first booster dose. After one month, the immune response against BA.1 of the participants who received the bivalent vaccine was better than the immune response of those who had received the monovalent Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine."

So only some of the 600 people received the Bivalent shot and or those people they only tracked results for 30 days.

And then they add this:

"The safety data accrued with the bivalent vaccine (original and omicron BA.1) and with the monovalent Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine are relevant to Pfizer-BioNTech COVID 19 Vaccine, Bivalent because these vaccines are manufactured using the same process."

So, they claim it's safe because they used the same manufacturing process even though the ingredients are different. What a joke.


----------



## bgc_fan

HappilyRetired said:


> "To evaluate the effectiveness of a single booster dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, Bivalent for individuals 12 years of age and older, the FDA analyzed immune response data among approximately 600 adults greater than 55 years of age who had previously received a 2-dose primary series and one booster dose with the monovalent Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine. These participants received a second booster dose of either the monovalent Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine or Pfizer-BioNTech’s investigational bivalent COVID-19 vaccine (original and omicron BA.1) 4.7 to 13.1 months after the first booster dose. After one month, the immune response against BA.1 of the participants who received the bivalent vaccine was better than the immune response of those who had received the monovalent Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine."
> 
> So only some of the 600 people received the Bivalent shot and or those people they only tracked results for 30 days.
> 
> And then they add this:
> 
> "The safety data accrued with the bivalent vaccine (original and omicron BA.1) and with the monovalent Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine are relevant to Pfizer-BioNTech COVID 19 Vaccine, Bivalent because these vaccines are manufactured using the same process."
> 
> So, they claim it's safe because they used the same manufacturing process even though the ingredients are different. What a joke.


Well, it's still more than just 8 mice isn't it?

Edit: And ingredients? Considering that the only change is that they are adding a different mRNA into the mix I imagine that the ingredients are the same unless you have some proof to the contrary.


----------



## HappilyRetired

bgc_fan said:


> Well, it's still more than just 8 mice isn't it?
> 
> Edit: And ingredients? Considering that the only change is that they are adding a different mRNA into the mix I imagine that the ingredients are the same unless you have some proof to the contrary.


But it's not 600 people. And, no it's not the same product if different ingredients are used. They would need to use the same ingredients to get the same product.


----------



## james4beach

Honestly, I do have some (mild) concern about how well the new vaccine has been tested. These mRNA vaccines are all based on the spike protein. The newer vaccines have reformulated the mRNA sequence, and will generate a _different_ spike protein.

With SARS-CoV-2, it seems that the spike protein is a significant cause of the stress on the body. The spike protein is not very well understood by scientists; it does weird things to the body that scientists are still trying to wrap their head around.

The new vaccine is adding a slightly modified spike protein. In my view, that's not a trivial change. Theoretically it's safe because the new spike protein is from BA-whatever, which appears to be a milder illness when people catch it naturally. But I still would like to see human trials.

Here's a nice article from Science









Omicron booster shots are coming—with lots of questions


COVID-19 vaccines get their first update since the pandemic began. Here's what you need to know about them




www.science.org


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Are you arguing in favour of no human testing for vaccines?


 ... how can there be no human testing for vaccines? Or are you trying to put words in my mouth? Weren't the Covid vaccines tested on humans a couple of years ago prior to its release? What about the flu shots - how do they test those annually? It's likely a tweak or 2, just like Bell Media trying to save a buck, only they recycle people other than the C-Suite, of course.


----------



## Beaver101

Birder said:


> I guess Beaver is a rodent just like mice, so probably would have a similar response to the vaccine.


 ... yep, no doubt and you can be thankful that rodents exist and can be tested so that you can live. 

And speaking of beavers, they'll soon be used to fight climate change.

From pest to protector: How beavers are helping fight climate change

And what does a bird(er) do other than feed and poop all day and all over the place, like those nasty pigeons perched up on the wires?


----------



## bgc_fan

HappilyRetired said:


> But it's not 600 people. And, no it's not the same product if different ingredients are used. They would need to use the same ingredients to get the same product.


But please explain how doing a minor change in a RNA sequence is considered that much of a different ingredient? Given that it's been tested safely, and the only difference is the spike protein that is produced, I'd say that it's a pretty good assumption that as far as safety between the original and new bivalent formulation is going to be the same. All the other fillers are going to be the same unless you have something to say otherwise.


----------



## james4beach

bgc_fan said:


> But please explain how doing a minor change in a RNA sequence is considered that much of a different ingredient?


The vaccine ingredients are the same, but the modified mRNA sequence will instruct the body to generate a different (new) spike protein.

The net effect is that a new spike protein will enter the bloodstream with these updated vaccines. And those new spike proteins could have a different impact on the body than before.


----------



## HappilyRetired

bgc_fan said:


> But please explain how doing a minor change in a RNA sequence is considered that much of a different ingredient? Given that it's been tested safely, and the only difference is the spike protein that is produced, I'd say that it's a pretty good assumption that as far as safety between the original and new bivalent formulation is going to be the same. All the other fillers are going to be the same unless you have something to say otherwise.


I'm not arguing something that's plainly obvious. Different spike proteins result in a different product. Only "some" of 600 people received the new shot and they were only followed for 30 days. You might find that acceptable, I don't.


----------



## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> Honestly, I do have some (mild) concern about how well the new vaccine has been tested. These mRNA vaccines are all based on the spike protein. The newer vaccines have reformulated the mRNA sequence, and will generate a _different_ spike protein.
> 
> With SARS-CoV-2, it seems that the spike protein is a significant cause of the stress on the body. The spike protein is not very well understood by scientists; it does weird things to the body that scientists are still trying to wrap their head around.
> 
> The new vaccine is adding a slightly modified spike protein. In my view, that's not a trivial change. Theoretically it's safe because the new spike protein is from BA-whatever, which appears to be a milder illness when people catch it naturally. But I still would like to see human trials.
> 
> Here's a nice article from Science
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron booster shots are coming—with lots of questions
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines get their first update since the pandemic began. Here's what you need to know about them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org


It's trivial in the sense that generally speaking, when you modify the RNA sequence, it just modifies the shape of the protein (depending how much difference there is between the original). Having one that is geared towards omicron variant just makes it more recognizable by the immune system, and in theory quicker to react towards. But will the spike protein activity be that much different? There's some indication that Omicron isn't as serious as Delta, so perhaps compared to the OG covid, the activity would be similar. 

Like I said before, it's likely the T-Cells that are more of a factor to prevent serious illness. Would the new sequence help that much? Maybe.


----------



## TomB16

bgc_fan said:


> Not sure what you're reading, but I read at least 600 for Pfizer and 800 for Moderna.


As I understand it, this is incorrect or, at the very least, misleading. Perhaps you scanned it a bit quickly.

"For the BA.4/BA.5 boosters, the companies have submitted animal data. They have not released those data publicly, although at the June FDA meeting, Pfizer presented preliminary findings in eight mice given BA.4/BA.5 vaccines as their third dose. Compared with the mice that received the original vaccine as a booster, the animals showed an increased response to all Omicron variants tested: BA.1, BA.2, BA.2.12.1, BA.4, and BA.5.

The companies say clinical trials for the BA.4/BA.5 vaccines will begin next month; they need clinical data both for full approval of the vaccines—their recent submissions are only for emergency use authorization—and to help develop future updates."









Omicron booster shots are coming—with lots of questions


COVID-19 vaccines get their first update since the pandemic began. Here's what you need to know about them




 www.science.org






So, as I understand it, the clinical trials in humans began in the middle of August and have a long way to go with no data yet published that I am aware of. Meanwhile, the US has ordered 170M doses based on a vaccine approved for emergency use approval.


----------



## TomB16

bgc_fan said:


> But please explain how doing a minor change in a RNA sequence is considered that much of a different ingredient? Given that it's been tested safely, and the only difference is the spike protein that is produced, I'd say that it's a pretty good assumption that as far as safety between the original and new bivalent formulation is going to be the same. All the other fillers are going to be the same unless you have something to say otherwise.


No. I don't need to do anything of the sort.

You explain how you can deem a reformulation safe for widespread distribution without human testing.

I was under the impression that safety and minimizing risk was a primary concern. It is for me. It would seem I need to audit my healthcare more closely.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> As I understand it, this is incorrect or, at the very least, misleading. Perhaps you scanned it a bit quickly.
> 
> "For the BA.4/BA.5 boosters, the companies have submitted animal data. They have not released those data publicly, although at the June FDA meeting, Pfizer presented preliminary findings in eight mice given BA.4/BA.5 vaccines as their third dose. Compared with the mice that received the original vaccine as a booster, the animals showed an increased response to all Omicron variants tested: BA.1, BA.2, BA.2.12.1, BA.4, and BA.5.
> 
> The companies say clinical trials for the BA.4/BA.5 vaccines will begin next month; they need clinical data both for full approval of the vaccines—their recent submissions are only for emergency use authorization—and to help develop future updates."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron booster shots are coming—with lots of questions
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines get their first update since the pandemic began. Here's what you need to know about them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, as I understand it, the clinical trials in humans began in the middle of August and have a long way to go with no data yet published that I am aware of. Meanwhile, the US has ordered 170M doses based on a vaccine approved for emergency use approval.


 ... Tom, here are your choices with respect to the incoming "bivalent" vaccine:

1. Not taking any more Covid vaccine.
2. Try to catch BA4/5 to achieve herd immunity (whatever form) or find out how tame if not dangerous these versions really are.
3. Wait for the human trials on the bivalent to be completed (whenever they maybe) to satisfy your audit scientifically.
4. Meanwhile, BA#.6 or whatever mutated version will rear its head .... just keep reading / following on it on science.org. At least you get to report it back on CMF.
5. Also meanwhile, Pfizer and Moderna are working on a trivalent vaccine to cover BA#6, 7, 8, etc. with NO human or mice trials at all.
6. Throw a coin to determine if you should take the bi-valent or the tri-valent one?
7. The world goes on waiting for the asteroid to hit.
8. Wait, no 7. above doesn't happen until the lawsuit is launched on Pfizer and Moderna for misleading on the 100% safetyness(sic) of their vaccines.


----------



## bgc_fan

TomB16 said:


> As I understand it, this is incorrect or, at the very least, misleading. Perhaps you scanned it a bit quickly.
> 
> "For the BA.4/BA.5 boosters, the companies have submitted animal data. They have not released those data publicly, although at the June FDA meeting, Pfizer presented preliminary findings in eight mice given BA.4/BA.5 vaccines as their third dose. Compared with the mice that received the original vaccine as a booster, the animals showed an increased response to all Omicron variants tested: BA.1, BA.2, BA.2.12.1, BA.4, and BA.5.
> 
> The companies say clinical trials for the BA.4/BA.5 vaccines will begin next month; they need clinical data both for full approval of the vaccines—their recent submissions are only for emergency use authorization—and to help develop future updates."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron booster shots are coming—with lots of questions
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines get their first update since the pandemic began. Here's what you need to know about them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, as I understand it, the clinical trials in humans began in the middle of August and have a long way to go with no data yet published that I am aware of. Meanwhile, the US has ordered 170M doses based on a vaccine approved for emergency use approval.


First of all you didn't post that link to start. But second of all, from my FDA link:

*Data Supporting the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine, Bivalent Authorization*

To evaluate the effectiveness of a single booster dose of the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine, Bivalent for individuals 18 years of age and older, the FDA analyzed immune response data among approximately 600 individuals 18 years of age and older who had previously received a two-dose primary series and one booster dose of monovalent Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine. These participants received a second booster dose of either the monovalent Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine or *Moderna’s investigational bivalent COVID-19 vaccine (original and omicron BA.1) at least 3 months after the first booster dose. After 28 days, the immune response against BA.1 of the participants who received the bivalent vaccine was better than the immune response of those who had received the monovalent Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine.*

So yes, they have done stage 3 trials. Step 3: Clinical Research, Phase 3 Boosting Study for the SARS-CoV-2 rS Variant Vaccines - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov (Note the completion date of July)

They are working on stage 4 which is a scale up, but to say that they haven't tested on humans is wrong.

Here's a pre-print of the study: A Bivalent Omicron-containing Booster Vaccine Against Covid-19


----------



## MrBlackhill

The Lancet just published its 2-year commission about the worldwide COVID response written by 28 worldwide experts from every domain looking at 500 studies and with the contribution of a hundred more experts.

Basically, a worldwide major fail. I'm not surprised.



The Lancet COVID-19 Commission


----------



## james4beach

An interesting study on natural COVID infections in Canada, especially this summer.

Just as I have been posting all year, it seems that children have been passing around COVID like crazy and infecting everyone. About 70% to 80% of Canadians under 19 show evidence of prior infection!

And large percents of middle age adults got infected too. My theory for some time has been that all children, and nearly all parents, caught COVID.

There's lots of "hybrid immunity' in Canada, with people having a mix of vaccine + natural infection immunity. The good news is that so many people have antibodies which should protect them going forward.

The bad news is that so much COVID is still circulating. It's not like it has slowed down... it continues to move through society like wildfire. So why aren't all the prior immunity and antibodies slowing it down?

Bogoch notes that he's optimistic about the new bivalent vaccines, but comments that we don't know how durable the protection will be. He also says that the original vaccine has very durable protection against severe outcomes. It stands up over time.


----------



## HappilyRetired

They're now making information commercials about myocarditis which one of the major side effects of the shot on children. Obviously, the risks are now so well known and numerous that they deemed that an announcement was required:

Pediatric Patient Story – Suri (30s version) - YouTube


----------



## TomB16

bgc_fan said:


> They are working on stage 4 which is a scale up, but to say that they haven't tested on humans is wrong.


I never said that.

Trying to change someone's narrative to bolster an argument is not strong ethical behavior, to be direct. My assertion stands and continues to be valid.

The BA/4/5 vaccine was given emergency approval based on testing of eight mice. The US ordered 170M doses of the new vaccine immediately upon emergency approval. Canada is already administering a bivalent variant of this vaccine.

They have started testing to facilitate approval of future vaccines which are derivative of this work. The testing is not complete and is not expected to be complete until july *2023*, as per your link.









Fact check: Were new COVID-19 boosters tested in just 8 mice? Should it matter?


Multiple skeptics on social media have claimed the BA.5-specific booster may be unsafe because, before humans began receiving it, it was tested on only eight mice.




www.cbs17.com













VERIFY: New COVID booster approved from final study of mice, not humans


The FDA says the shot to fight the Omicron variant is still safe and effective. Here's why.




www.wfmynews2.com






For those who don't read this stuff, here is a bit of info....

- These mice are undoubtedly "humanized mice". Mice in these sort of tests are modified genetically to more closely resemble the human genome. There is a near zero chance the FDA approved *emergency* use of the vaccine based on pet store mice.

- Full approval requires human study. This means a lot more than just pumping some juice into someone's deltoid and checking a box that indicates they didn't keel over in the first 30 seconds. There will very likely be a a complex protocol of tracking and feedback that will be mostly followed. Reading the original Pfizer study data shows the protocol doesn't need to be followed with as much precision as you might expect but there is decent documentation structure in place if something of note happens that someone wants to track.


----------



## bgc_fan

TomB16 said:


> I never said that.





TomB16 said:


> The FDA just approved Pfizer BA.4/5 vaccine.
> 
> Can anyone tell us how many people the vaccine was tested on, to gain approval? Anyone?
> 
> This is a great opportunity to show us you read the trials, instead of criticising the people who actually do the reading and present information.





TomB16 said:


> I was going to give this 24 hours but the responses will be the same, regardless of how long I leave it.
> 
> Answer: 0 people, 8 mice


Really? You said they haven't tested it on people. Or did I misunderstand what you said?




TomB16 said:


> The BA/4/5 vaccine was given emergency approval based on testing of eight mice. The US ordered 170M doses of the new vaccine immediately upon emergency approval. Canada is already administering a bivalent variant of this vaccine.


Well that's misleading. Canada only recently approved the previous bivalent with BA.1, which did undergo the clinical trials which you seem to be hot and bothered about.






Health Canada authorizes first bivalent COVID-19 booster for adults 18 years and older - Canada.ca


Today, Health Canada authorized an adapted version of the Moderna Spikevax COVID-19 vaccine. This vaccine (known as a “bivalent” vaccine) targets the original SARS-CoV-2 virus from 2019 and the Omicron (BA.1) variant, and is authorized for use as a booster dose in individuals 18 years of age or...




www.canada.ca







TomB16 said:


> They have started testing to facilitate approval of future vaccines which are derivative of this work. The testing is not complete and is not expected to be complete until july *2023*, as per your link.


It's probably worth looking at the definitions. 

Actual Primary Completion Date :July 17, 2022
The date on which the last participant in a clinical study was examined or received an intervention to collect final data for the primary outcome measure. Whether the clinical study ended according to the protocol or was terminated does not affect this date. For clinical studies with more than one primary outcome measure with different completion dates, this term refers to the date on which data collection is completed for all the primary outcome measures. The "estimated" primary completion date is the date that the researchers think will be the primary completion date for the study.


Estimated Study Completion Date :July 2023
The date on which the last participant in a clinical study was examined or received an intervention/treatment to collect final data for the primary outcome measures, secondary outcome measures, and adverse events (that is, the last participant's last visit). The "estimated" study completion date is the date that the researchers think will be the study completion date.

The fact is that at Primary Completion Date is likely enough to determine adverse effects as most would occur early on.


----------



## TomB16

bgc_fan said:


> Really? You said they haven't tested it on people. Or did I misunderstand what you said?


I said the BA.4/5 vaccine was approved for emergency use based on testing in eight mice. It was not that difficult to understand. If you are not capable of understanding simple ideas and/or you don't know how to use a scroll bar to go back and read what was written, I recommend using your keyboard less. You will appear more intelligent, that way.

That clinical trial page you linked is fundamentally misleading in a way I consider to be outright dishonest. I'm working on a construction project and don't have time for a petty argument but suffice to say the more I read of medical studies and FDA process the more disenfranchised I am becoming with our healthcare system. There are several words on these study pages that have been redefined to seem to indicate one thing but a field expert understands mean something quite different. A small portion of this seems deliberately designed to deceive.

Why don't you explain to us why "primary complete" is a year before the expected study conclusion? You cited this date so it is reasonable to ask you what it means. It sounds like it is pretty much wrapped up. Only took three weeks, apparently. Surely they can type it up in under a year? After all, they declare this to be an emergency situation by virtue of requesting an emergency use exception. Are they having problems with their steno pool? Maybe they should hire a temp? It seems like, if the human testing is done and in the bag, things might move a bit more quickly? How much data could they possibly have generated in a three week test that it takes a year to type up?


----------



## Birder

It seems the Danish Health Authority is no longer boosting anyone under age 50 (unless you are high risk or work in healthcare/LTC, etc). They are also no longer vaccinating anyone under 18 years of age. Seems their science is different than our science...


----------



## james4beach

Birder said:


> It seems the Danish Health Authority is no longer boosting anyone under age 50 (unless you are high risk or work in healthcare/LTC, etc). They are also no longer vaccinating anyone under 18 years of age.


Very interesting, thanks for sharing that.

Here is the direct link to the Danish Health Authority web page









Vaccination against covid-19


The Danish Health Authority expects that the number of covid-19 infections will increase during autumn and winter. Therefore, we recommend vaccination of people aged 50 years and over as well as selected risk groups. Read more about the autumn vaccination programme here.




www.sst.dk


----------



## TomB16

I just came from the vaccine clinic. We plan to do some travel so there are a couple of vaccines which are prudent to get, apparently.

One of the vaccines I received is for Yellow fever. We are going to Brazil. This vaccine is strongly recommended. Brazil has had 3 confirmed cases of Yellow fever in 2022 (population 212M). I'm not sure taking this vaccine was the best life choice I've made but Yellow fever has a 30% mortality rate so I went for it.

The nurse told us the bivalent COVID vaccine will soon be available to anyone who wants it. She told us a second COVID booster is required to travel to France. This may be true but I can't find this requirement on the Internet. We will probably stop in France on the Euro leg of our tour so perhaps I should consider customs convenience of another booster.

She also said the second COVID booster is encouraged for anyone who wants it, regardless of infection history. We did not take the COVID vaccine. My wife is returning to the clinic in a few weeks and will consider getting the second COVID booster.

We have had three COVID vaccine doses, COVID infections twice with high confidence, and possibly a third time (almost no symptoms other than "feeling a little off" for 48 hours but negative test). Despite this, Canadian healthcare recommends we take another load of vaccine and will be happy to pay for it.

I'm happy I had the vaccines. I'm happy I have had the infections (not joking) during the effective vaccine period. I would prefer we now focus our resource on people who are at risk and people who have never had an infection. I'm a healthy 55 year old with multiple infection history so pumping more COVID juice into my arm is a waste of taxpayer money.


----------



## bgc_fan

TomB16 said:


> Why don't you explain to us why "primary complete" is a year before the expected study conclusion? You cited this date so it is reasonable to ask you what it means. It sounds like it is pretty much wrapped up. Only took three weeks, apparently. Surely they can type it up in under a year? After all, they declare this to be an emergency situation by virtue of requesting an emergency use exception. Are they having problems with their steno pool? Maybe they should hire a temp? It seems like, if the human testing is done and in the bag, things might move a bit more quickly? How much data could they possibly have generated in a three week test that it takes a year to type up?


Should I use your same arguments? You can't make me explain anything to you, and I don't owe you anything.

But since I'm actually reasonable, primary complete would likely be the initial treatment (i.e. actual shot) and a month follow-up. Anything past that is just looking for long-term effects and follow-ups, not just typing up reports, which you seem to snidely imply. But then I guess you are a "researcher" so you should know this right? Where do you do your research? I'd be curious what university.


----------



## m3s

TomB16 said:


> I'm happy I had the vaccines. I'm happy I have had the infections (not joking) during the effective vaccine period. I would prefer we now focus our resource on people who are at risk and people who have never had an infection. I'm a healthy 55 year old with multiple infection history so pumping more COVID juice into my arm is a waste of taxpayer money.


It's not about you @TomB16 it's about politics now


COVID-19 Vaccine Boosters for Young Adults: A Risk-Benefit Assessment and Five Ethical Arguments against Mandates at Universities

50 Pages Posted: 12 Sep 2022

Kevin Bardosh
University of Washington; University of Edinburgh - Edinburgh Medical School

Allison Krug
Artemis Biomedical Communications LLC

Euzebiusz Jamrozik
University of Oxford

Trudo Lemmens
University of Toronto - Faculty of Law

Salmaan Keshavjee
Harvard University - Harvard Medical School

Vinay Prasad
University of California, San Francisco (UCSF)

Martin A. Makary
Johns Hopkins University - Department of Surgery

Stefan Baral
John Hopkins University

Tracy Beth Høeg
Florida Department of Health; Sierra Nevada Memorial Hospital

Date Written: August 31, 2022


----------



## james4beach

Aug 22: got booster shot
Sep 11: friends flew into town, visited my home for several hours
Sep 14: started to feel sick, starting with mild sore throat
Sep 16: two rapid tests, back to back, both give faint pink line = *positive* [ used shallow nasal method ]

Looks like I caught COVID about 23 days after getting the booster shot. Not too surprising I caught it as the vaccine is known to not prevent infection.

Now I am curious if it ends up being mild, how long I'm sick from it. Some friends have told me they've been sick as long as 10 days.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I wouldn't disbelieve your friends about the length of even "mild" sickness at being 10 days.

Hell, it takes me at least 2 "calendar" weeks just to recover from a "flu" (which is always nasty) so I can't imagine recovering from Covid to be any shorter. 

Only thing I'm concerned with getting either is NOT ending up in the ER or being asphyxiated at home.

No thanks, you (meaning anybody) get to keep both freebies.


----------



## andrewf

Hope you're feeling better. I found tylenol helped a lot.

My symptoms weren't all that severe, but it lasted about 10 days. I was very tired for the first week or so.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Sep 16: two rapid tests, back to back, both give faint pink line = *positive* [ used shallow nasal method ]


Can you get a PCR test to confirm?


----------



## sags

If your friends flew into town with the covid.........the other passengers on the plane likely caught it too.

Good thing the Omicron virus is less lethal than previous variants. We will have a big containment problem if a more deadly variant starts spreading.


----------



## Money172375

While we can all guess where we caught COVID, the majority of us don’t know for certain where it came from. 
you can walk down an empty grocery aisle 30 seconds after someone has sneezed and picked up COVID that way. 

I’d suspect there are COVID positive people on most flights And in most retail environments.


----------



## Birder

james4beach said:


> Looks like I caught COVID about 23 days after getting the booster shot.


I thought you had already caught it in a swimming pool? Perhaps I am mixing you up with someone else. I recommend that you take zinc, Vitamin D and C. Get lots of rest. You may have a very sore throat - so whatever is your "go to" for that symptom. Hope it is short lived.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Aug 22: got booster shot
> Sep 11: friends flew into town, visited my home for several hours
> Sep 14: started to feel sick, starting with mild sore throat
> Sep 16: two rapid tests, back to back, both give faint pink line = *positive* [ used shallow nasal method ]
> 
> Looks like I caught COVID about 23 days after getting the booster shot. Not too surprising I caught it as the vaccine is known to not prevent infection.
> 
> Now I am curious if it ends up being mild, how long I'm sick from it. Some friends have told me they've been sick as long as 10 days.


This is good news and perfect timing for your immune system.

While the vaccine will not prevent infection, there is plenty of evidence to show it reduces the chance of infection a bit (during it's efficacy period) and it dramatically reduces the chance of severe illness (also, during it's efficacy period).

The days of 0.5~1% COVID fatality rate are over for you.

So, you are almost certainly going to be OK, based on having three weeks of vaccine strength, and you will move forward with much longer lasting COVID immunity.

I suspect you are eating antipyretics like candy, as so many people do. This is likely to reduce your long term immunity, as it suppresses the body's immune response, not the virus. Still, you will be in a better situation moving forward, even with the voluntary immune system impairments. There is limited human data on this, but animal testing clearly shows antipyretics reduce viral survivability in animals.

Now that you have COVID super powers, you are ready to attend a trump rally.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> Can you get a PCR test to confirm?


The last time I looked into this, the provincial checklist didn't allow me to get a PCR test (due to age, and not being high risk). Plus since I got *two* positive RAT results, with distinct kits from different manufacturers, I'm pretty confident it's covid.

It would be pretty wild to get two RAT false positives from distinct brands.

The false negative is much more common, but I think a positive result (Control + Test lines) is pretty definitive.



sags said:


> If your friends flew into town with the covid.........the other passengers on the plane likely caught it too.


At least the plane forced them to wear masks, which probably was enough to protect others. I spent lots of time with these guests, without masks. In hindsight I obviously wish I had worn a mask.


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## james4beach

Birder said:


> I thought you had already caught it in a swimming pool? Perhaps I am mixing you up with someone else. I recommend that you take zinc, Vitamin D and C. Get lots of rest. You may have a very sore throat - so whatever is your "go to" for that symptom. Hope it is short lived.


Good question. I did catch a "cold" from a swimming pool, that was Aug 27 through Sep 3. But I don't have any reason to think that was covid. I repeatedly used the rapid tests, all negative.

I don't see how I could have caught covid on Aug 27, fully recovered in the middle, and then eventually tested positive on Sep 16. So my guess is that it was two distinct illnesses
(1) some kind of standard cold, caught at the swimming pool -- recovered fully
(2) after 10 days in between, caught COVID

Thanks for the well wishes everyone and thanks for the vitamin ideas Birder.


----------



## ian

I have absolutely no idea where I contracted covid. Could have been any number of places. Same for my spouse.

Did I expect the covid vaccine to protect me from getting covid? 

No, but what I did expect, and hope, is that if I did contract covid the symptoms would be much less severe, I could avoid the hospital, and hopefully I would not experience any post covid complications. Fortunately this was both of our experience.

We have been getting annual flu shots for the last 15 years. Are the effective? I have absolutely no idea. But neither of us has had the flu.


----------



## m3s

ian said:


> We have been getting annual flu shots for the last 15 years. Are the effective? I have absolutely no idea. But neither of us has had the flu.


I haven't taken a flu shot in 15 years and never got the flu either

I also skipped the h1n1 swine flu shot in like 2010 after discussing with a vaccine nurse

Looks like the covid shot is not that effective or worthwhile anymore either (had 3)


----------



## james4beach

An unfortunate thing is that the new variants can cause quick re-infection within a few months. So after you catch omicron, it's still possible to catch it again within a couple months, or 3 months, etc.

One should not presume they can't get sick again. Yes it's likely going to be milder, and probably just becomes a nuisance, but I still don't want to lose a whole bunch of good/productive days being sick this winter.

I will be returning to using masks everywhere and also minimizing social contact.


----------



## Beaver101

m3s said:


> I haven't taken a flu shot in 15 years and never got the flu either
> 
> I also skipped the h1n1 swine flu shot in like 2010 after discussing with a vaccine nurse
> 
> Looks like the covid shot is not that effective or worthwhile anymore either (had 3)


 ... just say you're a "giver", not a "receiver" when it comes down to infectious diseases. And some are just extremely generous in their givings there despite those who don't want to receive any of it. 

Mind you, I know alot of folks in this category with the motto "it's better to give (here) than to receive." No thanks even it's "free"!!!!


----------



## m3s

Beaver101 said:


> ... just say you're a "giver", not a "receiver" when it comes down to infectious diseases.


Covid was highly traced at my job and in the US. Some people at work got sick and we could always track who gave it

I use common sense. Meanwhile some morons who follow mask rules are constantly touching things they shouldn't and then touching their face


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> An unfortunate thing is that the new variants can cause quick re-infection within a few months. So after you catch omicron, it's still possible to catch it again within a couple months, or 3 months, etc.


This article is a bit light on detail, as to be not all that useful. There is far more detail in my posts from this year. You guys are literally 6 months behind me. European data sources have proven to be the gold standard.

Omicron BA.5 seems to re-infect at a higher rate than earlier strains, although this seems to be nuanced and it isn't as high as articles like this seem to suggest.

There are two kinds of infections. One is mucosal. This is where nearly all infections start. The mucosa is the moist tissue at the top of your lungs, mouth, nose, eyelids, etc. The body has a separate mucosal immune system that fights infections in these areas as a first line of defense and potentially prevent the infection from spreading to the rest of the body.

When people talk about getting COVID multiple times, they are almost certainly talking about light, mucosal infections. If you end up with an ironically less amusing humoral infection (the whole body), you are going to generate a different and more systemic, longer lasting, immune response.

I have no data to absolutely prove it is impossible to get a humoral BA.5 infection multiple times, so don't bother trying to put those words in my mouth, but both anecdotal evidence and ZOE Data suggest reinfections are generally very mild. Also, keep in mind there are a lot of flavors of COVID, by now. As Dr. Amiji points out in your linked article, there are a lot of strains that cause sufficiently independent immune responses as to break through immunity generated by other strains. Any COVID immune response will generate some protection against severe illness for any other strain, though.

Keep in mind, there is so little sequence testing that we can document that someone got COVID four times and not know what any of the strains are. Talk about this is mostly speculative, although the US has done quite a bit of sequencing in the last year, or so.

There is a world of information out there. I've enjoyed reading about this stuff and learning tons of medical info, not just COVID. It is really beneficial to understand the basic goings on in the body.

The most useful piece of information I've learned from the endless reading is how to wash my hands. Not joking. 99% of people reading this will roll their eyes and think, "I've known how to wash my hands my whole life." The thing is, we've been doing it wrong our entire lives. There is a process known to healthcare workers that is far more effective that five palm swipes we all do (only using soap about half the time). It takes more time but is far more effective.

If everyone learned how to wash their hands properly, there would be far less viral spread.


----------



## Beaver101

m3s said:


> Covid was highly traced at my job and in the US. Some people at work got sick and we could always track who gave it


 ... and yet the employees in your company had no problem with being "FreeDumb-less" in regards to this? Who knew?!



> I use common sense. Meanwhile some morons who follow mask rules are constantly touching things they shouldn't and then touching their face


 ... that's like saying you only touch your face when you're masked and so? Give me a break .... use of the "common sense" - the m3s' common sensed-way ... LOL!!!!


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> This article is a bit light on detail, as to be not all that useful. There is far more detail in my posts from this year. You guys are literally 6 months behind me. European data sources have proven to be the gold standard.
> 
> Omicron BA.5 seems to re-infect at a higher rate than earlier strains, although this seems to be nuanced and it isn't as high as articles like this seem to suggest.
> 
> There are two kinds of infections. One is mucosal. This is where nearly all infections start. The mucosa is the moist tissue at the top of your lungs, mouth, nose, eyelids, etc. The body has a separate mucosal immune system that fights infections in these areas as a first line of defense and potentially prevent the infection from spreading to the rest of the body.
> 
> When people talk about getting COVID multiple times, they are almost certainly talking about light, mucosal infections. If you end up with an ironically less amusing humoral infection (the whole body), you are going to generate a different and more systemic, longer lasting, immune response.
> 
> I have no data to absolutely prove it is impossible to get a humoral BA.5 infection multiple times, so don't bother trying to put those words in my mouth, but both anecdotal evidence and ZOE Data suggest reinfections are generally very mild. Also, keep in mind there are a lot of flavors of COVID, by now. As Dr. Amiji points out in your linked article, there are a lot of strains that cause sufficiently independent immune responses as to break through immunity generated by other strains. Any COVID immune response will generate some protection against severe illness for any other strain, though.
> 
> Keep in mind, there is so little sequence testing that we can document that someone got COVID four times and not know what any of the strains are. Talk about this is mostly speculative, although the US has done quite a bit of sequencing in the last year, or so.
> 
> There is a world of information out there. I've enjoyed reading about this stuff and learning tons of medical info, not just COVID. It is really beneficial to understand the basic goings on in the body.
> 
> The most useful piece of information I've learned from the endless reading is how to wash my hands. Not joking. 99% of people reading this will roll their eyes and think, "I've known how to wash my hands my whole life." The thing is, we've been doing it wrong our entire lives. There is a process known to healthcare workers that is far more effective that five palm swipes we all do (only using soap about half the time). It takes more time but is far more effective.
> 
> If everyone learned how to wash their hands properly, there would be far less viral spread.


 ... how about "_if everyone only just remember (if not learned) to wash their hands_", I would be happy. Especially for those who uses the toilet ... recall, one of my ex-boss does NOT. Can't be bothered.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> I have no data to absolutely prove it is impossible to get a humoral BA.5 infection multiple times


The virus keeps mutating. Maybe you're right that the same strain (BA.5) can't cause a serious repeat infection, but give it a few months, and there's a new variant circulating.

I already know several people who have caught Covid, and felt sick, more than once. It's not rare at all. They probably caught some mix of original / BA1 / BA3 / BA5 ... and it will keep continuing.

One has to keep protecting themselves through winter. Don't assume you won't get sick again just because you already caught covid.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> I already know several people who have caught Covid, and felt sick, more than once. It's not rare at all. They probably caught some mix of original / BA1 / BA3 / BA5 ... and it will keep continuing.


I doubt it. The more often they get it, the less severe it will be to the point they will get it in future and literally not know they have it.

Hospital testing in the UK revealed about half of the COVID cases in hospital were in for something else and didn't realize they had COVID.

It's a fight the body can train for and win, over time. It might take several bouts, though.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> I doubt it. The more often they get it, the less severe it will be to the point they will get it in future and literally not know they have it.


That doesn't happen with typical colds (coronavirus). People keep catching colds, over and over again through life. Some infections hit harder than others, luck of the draw.

Catching a few colds does not lessen cold severity to the point it becomes unnoticeable. If that were the case, by the time we were all in our 20s and had caught hundreds of colds we'd never catch colds again. But we do... for our whole lives.

I don't know how COVID is going to compare to typical colds, but I'm just pointing out that they are both the same class of virus, and people *don't* get used to colds to the point they become immune.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> That doesn't happen with typical colds (coronavirus). People keep catching colds, over and over again through life. Some infections hit harder than others, luck of the draw.


It is not luck of the draw. It's only random to those who don't understand it.

There is not one cold. There are a wide variety of colds and they evolve quickly. If it was just one, we would be able to vaccinate against them.

COVID was called a "novel corona virus". It is now just a corona virus for the vast majority of us. COVID is killing a lot less people now because our immune systems have gotten smarter.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> COVID was called a "novel corona virus". It is now just a corona virus for the vast majority of us. COVID is killing a lot less people now because our immune systems have gotten smarter.


Right, SARS-CoV-2 has gone from novel to something-our-bodies-recognize, which is great. It's pretty rare to die from it now.

But it's still a coronavirus, and those things mutate. I just don't think you should jump to the conclusion that SARS-CoV-2 won't keep making people sick, as it mutates over time.

Already we have a big problem with reinfection. The reinfection rates seem to be very high. This article says 1 in 6 people catches the virus more than once. *Repeated reinfection comes with risks*, as described in this article. More reinfections comes with more long COVID.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I doubt it. The more often they get it, the less severe it will be to the point they will get it in future and *literally not know they have it.*
> 
> Hospital testing in the UK revealed about half of the COVID cases in hospital were in for something else and didn't realize they had COVID.


 ...the only part I agree with is the bolded part. These are known as "carriers" or "givers" of the disease.

Whether they "intentionally" know it or not themselves, for all I know, they don't hesitate to "share" it ever ... so generously. 



> It's a fight the body can train for and win, over time. It might take several bouts, though.


 ... that would be a myth that falls in your "randomness" theory for sure.

Regardless, still a myth that your body trains and win over it - over time.... especially if the virus "mutates" to the extent it's warrants a new version like Gamma, then Omega, etc..

Hell, I don't even find getting the flu(s) twice a year to be any lesser than the previous year. One time, I was out of commission for 2 weeks and trying to recover for a whole month, only to have "long flu" symptoms ... to this day, a decade later.


----------



## Beaver101

deleted double post????


----------



## james4beach

Getting text messages from new people... more friends testing positive for Covid. I now know of two groupings of people (no contact in between) who have all caught Covid within the last 15 days and a third group that suspects covid.

For those of you in Winnipeg, also beware: the Canada Life company / IGM has organized a massive super-spreader event, of thousands of employees, to mingle and infect each other over the next few days. If any of your friends or family work for the company, I'd stay away from them for the next while.

Lots of Covid spreading these days -- beware.

Myself, other than essential contact, I am going to stop ALL frivolous social interactions for the rest of winter. It's not worth it. People are being too reckless. I have essential things I need to do, like go to the dentist, see family, and I can't take any extra risks with random socializing.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Getting text messages from new people... more friends testing positive for Covid. I now know of two groupings of people (no contact in between) who have all caught Covid within the last 15 days and a third group that suspects covid.
> 
> For those of you in Winnipeg, also beware: the Canada Life company / IGM has organized a massive super-spreader event, of thousands of employees, to mingle and infect each other over the next few days. If any of your friends or family work for the company, I'd stay away from them for the next while.
> 
> Lots of Covid spreading these days -- beware.
> 
> Myself, other than essential contact, I am going to stop ALL frivolous social interactions for the rest of winter. It's not worth it. People are being too reckless. I have essential things I need to do, like go to the dentist, see family, and I can't take any extra risks with random socializing.


 ...are you serious with that event being held by an (life & health) insurance company with their mutual funds pumping counterpart? I'm guessing profitability must going through the roof over there in both companies. 

I hope your dentist is still taking Covid precautions. Mine's still 1. screen its patients prior to its appointments, and 2. staff wearing masks all time though now not the face shields and yellow gowns.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ...are you serious with that event being held by an (life & health) insurance company with their mutual funds pumping counterpart? I'm guessing profitability must going through the roof over there in both companies.


Well, at least the insurance division will be making all their people gather. Don't know about profitability.

I can't believe how stupid companies are being these days. After that super spreader event, they're going to have many employees out sick, plus they're going to accelerate the spread of Covid in Winnipeg. What an irresponsible management, and bad members of the community.

And there are many companies currently forcing all their employees to gather and mingle.


----------



## Beaver101

Long COVID plan, funding decisions in the works, Moore says

Is this bozo for real? Like the need to go back to medical school instead of going after a PHD in political science.



> _...
> “*As well, we want to understand what laboratory investigations would be necessary to help with the diagnosis. What other diagnostic imaging would be important? What pulmonary function tests would be important?*”
> 
> Ontario officials are looking at international literature, and Moore himself said he was just at a conference with the Center for Disease Control. That agency is also trying to define investigation and treatment pathways, he said.
> 
> “There haven't been a lot of randomized controlled trials to be able to give physicians guidance on what therapies work, in what instances,” he said.
> 
> “So all of that work is evolving. We certainly want our researchers involved to ensure that we provide best guidance early on in the treatment pathways.”
> 
> *The Ministry of Health said earlier this month in response to the science table brief that it is reviewing the findings, but did not answer a question about whether or not the province has a plan for the condition.*_


 ... just admit that currently there is no cure for Covid and it's too bad if someone gets long Covid symptoms. Them scientists are still studying how the disease behaves as per the fake medical doctor. And any "successful" treatment is luck of the draw.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Well, at least the insurance division will be making all their people gather. Don't know about profitability.
> 
> I can't believe how stupid companies are being these days. After that super spreader event, they're going to have many employees out sick, plus they're going to accelerate the spread of Covid in Winnipeg. What an irresponsible management, and bad members of the community.
> 
> And there are many companies currently forcing all their employees to gather and mingle.


Yes, all of retail. I know most people who travelled for work before COVID have returned to the skies. 

James, I appreciate your Diligence but I think most “healthy” people under 70 have decided COVID is over. The experts all seem to agree that it’s never going away and will join the ranks of other coronaviruses. Yes, we should all be aware that new dangerous variants may pop up…….but at what stage or what set of circumstances would make you feel more comfortable? Better treatments? Better vaccines?

Inside sports (nhl, nfl, mlb etc) returned quite some time ago, and I‘ve Yet to hear about super spreading. we’re talking about tens of thousands indoors screaming and yelling.

Not criticizing your decision…just trying to understand what the situation would look like to make you feel more comfortable.

btw….my 70 year neighbour is going for his 5th shot today.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> James, I appreciate your Diligence but I think most “healthy” people under 70 have decided COVID is over.


I don't know what you mean by "COVID is over". Many people still acknowledge the threat continues. Some people do appear to have given up entirely and are comfortable becoming infected multiple times, and are comfortable with the possibility of long COVID.

If you think _most people_ decided "it's over" that's probably a reflection of the values in your circle. Because that's not the same as my circle.

Most of my friends, under 70, continue to be very cautious. Nearly all of the medical people I know (doctors, researchers) are being ultra cautious. I take my medical friends more seriously than anyone else.



Money172375 said:


> Not criticizing your decision…just trying to understand what the situation would look like to make you feel more comfortable.


We have crazy high levels of disease spread right now probably for a variety of reasons. Maybe people have "let loose" after keeping to themselves. People clearly went crazy with travel, and are continuing to travel a lot. People also stopped using masks, another reason we have such high rates of spread.

I will relax my guard when there are lower rates of disease spread. There's just too much circulating right now. I suspect the rate of spread will slow down as travel slows down, and as people get sick and realize how much time and productivity they lose.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Myself, other than essential contact, I am going to stop ALL frivolous social interactions for the rest of winter. It's not worth it. People are being too reckless. I have essential things I need to do, like go to the dentist, see family, and I can't take any extra risks with random socializing.


Covid has become the "new flu" ... most people around here are going about their normal lives. On a rare occasion I hear of someone I know getting it and being "flu sick" for a few days, then back to normal.

If you feel the risk is too high for you then by all means steer clear but just note it'll likely be that way for many, many years.

I so rarely think of covid now, just the normal routine for me. I will look into the new booster shots in the next few months ... maybe even get one.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> If you feel the risk is too high for you then by all means steer clear but just note it'll likely be that way for many, many years


I don't think the rate of spread (prevalence) will always be this high. It will probably come down as travel slows down, and also as people get tired of becoming sick repeatedly, also with many other factors I'm sure. People over-compensated for their earlier social isolation with way too much socializing and interaction.

There was pent up travel demand. I know of some people who flew to Europe while still infectious with Covid. They didn't want to wait or defer the travel.

Anyway, I don't think prevalence will always be this high.


----------



## TomB16

James, it seems pretty clear you are rejecting all evidence that shows something positive happening on the pandemic front and embracing anyone who will say something negative about it. The data shows the pandemic is currently under control. We may see a small bump this fall, when everyone goes indoors, but the data indicates we are not currently in crisis.

It's like you equate COVID continuing to cause problems as an indication the global crisis is not over. The global crisis is over and, yes, COVID continues to be a problem. The point is, it's a much smaller problem than it was during the crisis.


Long COVID does seem to be a problem, however you are presenting it as a broad issue and it is decidedly nuanced.

Long COVID is more than twice as prevalent in the US than it is in the UK.

Keep in mind, long COVID statistics come from surveys and self reporting, not a controlled study.

40% of American adults have self-reported reported having covid. Of this 40%, 19% report symptoms of long covid. This comes to 7.5% of Americans reporting symptoms which last more than three months. The survey indicates prevalence of long covid is approximately double in the poorest states, compared to the most wealthy states.

People reporting long COVID for more than a year is less than half the group reporting symptoms for more than 3 months. People reporting long COVID that lasted more than two years are less than half again.

I speculate Canada is closer to UK statistics (and northern US states) than it is to the broad US numbers. Of course, this is a guess.


I just received a vaccine for yellow fever. We are going to South America and they have it there (and also in Africa). One third of yellow fever infections are fatal.

Dengue fever presents higher risk to individuals than COVID. We don't care about dengue though, because we don't really have it in Canada.

Life is littered with turds. We need to be careful where we step. Even if we are careful, there is still a chance we will step in something warm and moist. Be glad you live in Canada where you can whine about problems and be as irrational as you like. In fact, Canadians pander to the irrational. If someone is freaking out, we cater to them. So, enjoy your attention.

I'm going to fly to Europe, take a boat to South America, and then fly to Asia. I will do this because I have had reasonable success in career, business, and investing. My prognosis is 25 years to live, best case. I'm going to make the most of whatever time I have left.

Life outlook has a big impact on happiness, James. Point of view is a choice. Please consider relaxing your fixation on the negative sufficiently to allow you to more fully embrace the positive.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> We may see a small bump this fall, when everyone goes indoors, but the data indicates we are not currently in crisis.


We have absolutely no monitoring of the case numbers in Canada, so we're just operating blind here. We don't collect or publish data on infection rates.

All we know is that a flood of people aren't going to the hospital. Which I agree is great (that's why the pandemic is over), but that's a different matter than saying we don't have an issue with widespread infectious disease spread.

If this was influenza, and causing this many people to be sick, I'd have the same concerns and would be just as cautious.

My "data sources" lead me to think there's very high prevalence of Covid right now (at least in my age group), which is why I suggest being cautious. I won't always be this cautious, as it won't always circulate so aggressively. These things have a natural ebb and flow.



TomB16 said:


> Please consider relaxing your fixation on the negative sufficiently to allow you to more fully embrace the positive.


Actually I find many of the above people's views (including yours) -- that you should just accept dangerous infectious diseases -- as really quite negative and awful.

My view is positive and upbeat. We can and should protect ourselves from dangerous infectious diseases. People who don't catch severe illnesses, who don't have massive inflammation pound their body, are happier and healthier.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> If this was influenza, and causing this many people to be sick, I'd have the same concerns and would be just as cautious.


Indeed.

The estimates I've seen suggest roughly 1B people get influenza annually, causing about 500K deaths. This number is speculative, as are so many of the COVID numbers. We simply do not have the resource to do a careful analysis of every case.

When is the last time you saw a COVID death rate statistic? The numbers I've seen are number of deaths, not the rate, and they are frequently cumulative (as per Our World in Data).

The best data I can find is from the CDC for the US but it is also a guestimation.

Influenza = 50K deaths per year in USA

COVID > 1M deaths in USA but it has been ongoing for 2.5 years. The current death rate is far lower than peak.

I speculate COVID currently kills a similar number of people in the US as the flu _and it is declining_. Meanwhile, in Canada, our COVID death rate is lower than the US.


----------



## m3s

TomB16 said:


> I just received a vaccine for yellow fever. We are going to South America and they have it there (and also in Africa). One third of yellow fever infections are fatal.
> 
> Dengue fever presents higher risk to individuals than COVID. We don't care about dengue though, because we don't really have it in Canada.


I just took my 2nd yellow fever vaccine. Apparently it's good for 10 years. It's mandatory for my job that involves travel

I don't bother taking optional shots that the vaccine nurses don't think I need such as H1N1 vaccine and flu shots. If I had kids in public school or I was forgetful of washing my hands or worked with public I would get the flu shot. I haven't heard anything about getting fired if I don't take the 4th, 5th and 6th Covid vaccine either (been 10 months since my 3rd shot)

Vaccine nurses have been pretty knowledgeable in my experience so I take their advice. I also found an app now CANimmunize that tracks them for me


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Actually I find many of the above people's views (including yours) -- that you should just accept dangerous infectious diseases -- as really quite negative and awful.
> 
> My view is positive and upbeat. We can and should protect ourselves from dangerous infectious diseases. People who don't catch severe illnesses, who don't have massive inflammation pound their body, are happier and healthier.


Judging people negative and awful for moderating their concern about an issue is neither positive nor upbeat.

I'm not denying COVID is an issue. The data shows COVID is an issue that is currently under control. Our healthcare can deal with it. People can return to living reasonably full lives in post-pandemic conditions. To suggest this view is anything but positive is cripplingly negative which garners my sympathy.

James, I don't even disagree with much of what you write. I simply do not share your global perspective.

To a significant extent, life is what we make of it.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Anyway, I don't think prevalence will always be this high.


It'll likely just rise and fall in cycles, just like it always has.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> All we know is that a flood of people aren't going to the hospital. Which I agree is great (that's why the pandemic is over), but that's a different matter than saying we don't have an issue with widespread infectious disease spread.


But that is a key point, with low hospital cases it becomes a non-issue for most healthy people ... just like the flu. Did most healthy people change their lifestyle when flu season came around ... don't think so.


----------



## Spudd

TomB16 said:


> Indeed.
> 
> The estimates I've seen suggest roughly 1B people get influenza annually, causing about 500K deaths. This number is speculative, as are so many of the COVID numbers. We simply do not have the resource to do a careful analysis of every case.
> 
> When is the last time you saw a COVID death rate statistic? The numbers I've seen are number of deaths, not the rate, and they are frequently cumulative (as per Our World in Data).
> 
> The best data I can find is from the CDC for the US but it is also a guestimation.
> 
> Influenza = 50K deaths per year in USA
> 
> COVID > 1M deaths in USA but it has been ongoing for 2.5 years. The current death rate is far lower than peak.
> 
> I speculate COVID currently kills a similar number of people in the US as the flu _and it is declining_. Meanwhile, in Canada, our COVID death rate is lower than the US.


There are about 500 COVID deaths a day in the US at the moment (I'm being generous, as the latest week actually averages out to 592). On the graph at Johns Hopkins, the vast majority of these are 5 days a week (presumably because many sources don't report on weekends). So 500x5x52 would represent the pro-rated deaths for a year, and that is 130,000. 

The maximum number of flu deaths in a given year in the US since 2010 is 52,000. 

So COVID is twice as bad as the flu, at the moment, if we consider only deaths.


----------



## Money172375

Spudd said:


> There are about 500 COVID deaths a day in the US at the moment (I'm being generous, as the latest week actually averages out to 592). On the graph at Johns Hopkins, the vast majority of these are 5 days a week (presumably because many sources don't report on weekends). So 500x5x52 would represent the pro-rated deaths for a year, and that is 130,000.
> 
> The maximum number of flu deaths in a given year in the US since 2010 is 52,000.
> 
> So COVID is twice as bad as the flu, at the moment, if we consider only deaths.


I won’t argue these stats, but for otherwise healthy people, the risk is incredibly low.

I live in a retirement community, almost zero precautions here. Not saying it’s right Or wrong, but there’s almost no talk of COVID…….other than people getting their 5th shot.


----------



## TomB16

There is strong evidence to suggest COVID deaths in the us are grossly over reported. Elsewhere too, actually.

COVID hospitalizations in the US are also over-reported. Hospitals cite COVID to receive federal funding.


Anyone who is impacted by COVID has my sympathy.

All I am saying is COVID-19 is not the only corona virus out there. It was novel in 2019 and caused a global scare as the world did not have herd immunity. Now we are toward the end of that phase. That is why I wrote the "novel corona virus" is now another corona virus. Most people who had it in 2022 have had less symptoms than a typical cold.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> There is strong evidence to suggest COVID deaths in the us are grossly over reported. Elsewhere too, actually.
> 
> COVID hospitalizations in the US are also over-reported. Hospitals cite COVID to receive federal funding.
> 
> 
> Anyone who is impacted by COVID has my sympathy.
> 
> All I am saying is COVID-19 is not the only corona virus out there. It was novel in 2019 and caused a global scare as the world did not have herd immunity. Now we are toward the end of that phase. That is why I wrote the "novel corona virus" is now another corona virus. * Most people who had it in 2022 have had less symptoms than a typical cold.*





TomB16 said:


> Judging people negative and awful for moderating their concern about an issue is neither positive nor upbeat.
> 
> I'm not denying COVID is an issue. The data shows COVID is an issue that is currently under control. Our healthcare can deal with it. People can return to living reasonably full lives in post-pandemic conditions. To suggest this view is anything but positive is cripplingly negative which garners my sympathy.
> 
> James, I don't even disagree with much of what you write. I simply do not share your global perspective.
> 
> *To a significant extent, life is what we make of it.*


 .... . So when are you taking your world tour?


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> But that is a key point, with low hospital cases it becomes a non-issue for most healthy people ... just like the flu. Did most healthy people change their lifestyle when flu season came around ... don't think so.


First of all, the flu is nasty and I try to not catch the flu either. And yes I do change my lifestyle in peak cold & flu season. A personal choice, and I know others don't.

But Covid is worse. It's more infectious, people get sick from it even in summer, and can catch it several times. More importantly though, Covid is not well understood by doctors yet. It causes massive inflammation in the body and seems to cause long Covid in a decent % of people. The effects are not well understood yet.

Once the disease is better understood and we know it's not causing disabilities, I won't take it so seriously. But a mysterious disease that does mysterious things to the body should be taken seriously, and you should work extra hard to avoid catching it.

@cainvest perhaps you are under the misconception that this is just the same as the flu.



Money172375 said:


> I live in a retirement community, almost zero precautions here. Not saying it’s right Or wrong, but there’s almost no talk of COVID…….other than people getting their 5th shot.


Sounds like they should smarten up. Once families/kids start to visit and bring the fresh bugs from school and offices, people will catch it ... 5th shot or not.



Spudd said:


> So COVID is twice as bad as the flu, at the moment, if we consider only deaths.


And we don't even understand the other things Covid does to the body, yet.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> First of all, the flu is nasty and I try to not catch the flu either. And yes I do change my lifestyle in peak cold & flu season. A personal choice, and I know others don't.
> 
> But Covid is worse. It's more infectious, people get sick from it even in summer, and can catch it several times. More importantly though, Covid is not well understood by doctors yet. It causes massive inflammation in the body and seems to cause long Covid in a decent % of people. The effects are not well understood yet.
> 
> Once the disease is better understood and we know it's not causing disabilities, I won't take it so seriously. But a mysterious disease that does mysterious things to the body should be taken seriously, and you should work extra hard to avoid catching it.
> 
> @cainvest perhaps you are under the misconception that this is just the same as the flu.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like they should smarten up. Once families/kids start to visit and bring the fresh bugs from school and offices, people will catch it ... 5th shot or not.
> 
> 
> 
> And we don't even understand the other things Covid does to the body, yet.


I think most people are “ok” with catching it vs. Living in isolation. Some wear masks, but vast majority don’t.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> I think most people are “ok” with catching it vs. Living in isolation. Some wear masks, but vast majority don’t.


Nobody said to live in isolation. Why do you folks always jump to such extremes?

Just be more cautious during times of aggressive disease spread. Same way that if the flu was spreading like wildfire (if everyone I knew was catching it), I think I'd be more careful and more diligent with masks. I'd wait it out a bit.

But Covid is actually more dangerous than the flu, *and* we don't fully understand the disease or its consequences yet.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Nobody said to live in isolation. Why do you folks always jump to such extremes?
> 
> Just be more cautious during times of aggressive disease spread. Same way that if the flu was spreading like wildfire (if everyone I knew was catching it), I think I'd be more careful and more diligent with masks. I'd wait it out a bit.
> 
> But Covid is actually more dangerous than the flu, *and* we don't fully understand the disease or its consequences yet.


Not jumping…..you mentioned…”minimizing social contact. How do you define that? Do you plan on meeting indoors for hours with groups of 5 or more? Would you go to a restaurant? Movie theatre? Gym? Airplane? 

Again, not judging…..just trying to understand. I think your chosen behaviour is a little risk averse, but I’m happy you’ve chosen it. Until public health is under stress again (ok…in Ontario, it’s a mess all the time), I think everyone should Make their own decisions, free of guilt or ostracism 

Catching COVID is inevitable in mind…..and probably more than once.

I know a handful of people in my entire network that haven’t caught it. My parents and in-laws (neither of who have any friends or visit restaurants, theatres etc), and one couple in my neighbourhood. All of these people live pretty isolated lives.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> @cainvest perhaps you are under the misconception that this is just the same as the flu.


Nope, not the same as the flu in my eyes but it appears people are treating it like that now.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Do you plan on meeting indoors for hours with groups of 5 or more? Would you go to a restaurant? Movie theatre? Gym? Airplane?


Well I said "minimizing social contact", not eliminating. Ah I see, maybe what I wrote sounded more severe than what I intended.

What I am advising is a higher level of caution while there is a high rate of infectious disease spread.

Regarding your list: yes to some, no to others. Being a single guy, I want to meet women and go on dates, so I will make exceptions for dates -- but otherwise no to the large gatherings and restaurants. That's as long as COVID rates appear to be very high, like they are now.

Air travel and movie theatres are fine, since I can wear a KN95 mask.

I would consider them on a situation by situation basis. As you can see, it's not a blanket "no" answer. And if COVID is not circulating as aggressively [ meaning I don't keep hearing about friends catching it], then I won't be as cautious.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> *Myself, other than essential contact, I am going to stop ALL frivolous social interactions for the rest of winter.*





james4beach said:


> Well I said "minimizing social contact", not eliminating. Ah I see, maybe what I wrote sounded more severe than what I intended.


Ya, I'd say the top line sounded more than just "minimizing".


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Not jumping…..you mentioned…”minimizing social contact. How do you define that? Do you plan on meeting indoors for hours with groups of 5 or more? Would you go to a restaurant? Movie theatre? Gym? Airplane?
> 
> *Again, not judging…..just trying to understand. I think your chosen behaviour is a little risk averse,* but I’m happy you’ve chosen it. Until public health is under stress again (ok…in Ontario, it’s a mess all the time), I think everyone should Make their own decisions, free of guilt or ostracism
> 
> Catching COVID is inevitable in mind…..and probably more than once.
> 
> *I know a handful of people in my entire network that haven’t caught it. My parents and in-laws (neither of who have any friends or visit restaurants, theatres etc), and one couple in my neighbourhood. All of these people live pretty isolated lives.*


 ... well, the proof is your own pudding here as these folks can't be risk takers, never mind risk adverse. And what's wrong with "pretty isolated" lives? No judging?

Besides, your mom got your dad and vice-versa. Better than no one should either catch it. Well, except they got you who probably never visits 'cause they don't want you to.


----------



## james4beach

In case this helps anyone, I've been comparing notes with the friend who also caught covid around when I did. We've been looking at our respective timelines.

We're pretty sure we caught this in a busy restaurant with very dense seating.

Next likely possibility is that the visitors caught it while flying over and passed it to me.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> In case this helps anyone, I've been comparing notes with the friend who also caught covid around when I did. We've been looking at our respective timelines.
> 
> We're pretty sure we caught this in a busy restaurant with very dense seating.


James, you're deathly afraid of Covid as can be told by your numerous comments. Every day you post another example of how crowds are super spreader events. Yet you choose to go to crowed restaurants. Practice some self control.

Also, stop lecturing people until you follow your own advice.


----------



## james4beach

HappilyRetired said:


> Yet you choose to go to crowed restaurants


I normally don't actually. And the restaurant was empty when we got there. We got blind sided by the sudden crowd that arrived -- not a scenario we chose.



HappilyRetired said:


> Also, stop lecturing people until you follow your own advice.


I think you could benefit from some lecturing


----------



## damian13ster

Jesus man, do you investigate where people got common cold too?
Let it go

Covid's mortality is somewhere between common cold and flu since early this year.
In Layman's terms, you are better off catching covid than flu

Viruses generally mutate to be less lethal and more infectious. That's exactly what happened here. Move on


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> We have absolutely no monitoring of the case numbers in Canada, so we're just operating blind here. We don't collect or publish data on infection rates.
> 
> All we know is that a flood of people aren't going to the hospital. Which I agree is great (that's why the pandemic is over), but that's a different matter than saying we don't have an issue with widespread infectious disease spread.


Actually if people aren't getting sick and dying, we don't have an issue.



> Actually I find many of the above people's views (including yours) -- that you should just accept dangerous infectious diseases -- as really quite negative and awful.


We shouldn't just accept dangerous infectious diseases.
We should basically accept less dangerous infectious diseases. Until covid we didn't cower in fear from the sniffles.

It's a trade off, high danger, high precautions, low danger low precautions.


----------



## Money172375

omicron may protect against the flu.









The omicron coronavirus variant may protect against flu


In a laboratory study, the H1N1 seasonal flu virus didn't take hold in bronchial cells containing the omicron coronavirus variant, but the flu virus did replicate in cells containing the delta variant




www.newscientist.com


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Jesus man, do you investigate where people got common cold too?
> Let it go
> 
> Covid's mortality is somewhere between common cold and flu since early this year.
> In Layman's terms, you are better off catching covid than flu
> 
> Viruses generally mutate to be less lethal and more infectious. That's exactly what happened here. Move on
> 
> View attachment 23660


 ... care to speak for yourself first? How come we never heard you "catching it = Covid"? Or even the flu? Oh, must be those super-effectiveness of those self-RATs for you to brag on CMF. That's why!!!!


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> omicron may protect against the flu.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The omicron coronavirus variant may protect against flu
> 
> 
> In a laboratory study, the H1N1 seasonal flu virus didn't take hold in bronchial cells containing the omicron coronavirus variant, but the flu virus did replicate in cells containing the delta variant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newscientist.com


 ... how about Covid over-dominating the flu instead?


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> I normally don't actually. And the restaurant was empty when we got there. We got blind sided by the sudden crowd that arrived -- not a scenario we chose.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you could benefit from some lecturing


You're a hypocrite James. Daily warnings about Covid and you go to busy restaurants with dense seating. I'm a little suspect that it suddenly filled up just after you got there.

And you think I need lecturing? You really are full of you self aren't you?


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Being a single guy, I want to meet women and go on dates, *so I will make exceptions for dates -- but otherwise no to the large gatherings and restaurants.* That's as long as COVID rates appear to be very high, like they are now.


You can't go on a date somewhere other than a restaurant?


james4beach said:


> In case this helps anyone, I've been comparing notes with the friend who also caught covid around when I did. We've been looking at our respective timelines.
> 
> We're pretty sure we caught this in a busy restaurant with very dense seating.


You were with a friend, not on a date? Please try to keep your stories straight. 😁


----------



## Beaver101

^ Re post #3533: Care to call yourself that first along with the fame of being a REAL TROLL.

Daily warnings about Covid? Since when was that "daily" ... at the time J4B caught it which was only recently when PH desisted to publish/report any stats, let alone "warnings". That's because of jack-assed FreeDumbers like you who believe "Covid is over!"

Besides, I can't help you who eats 99.5% of the time at home. Just admit restaurants ain't your thing. And I don't disbelieve ball-parks, concerts, amusement parks, theatres, etc. ain't your thing either.

Reminder: In case you got another memory lapse. I'm on your Ignore List, Troll.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Actually if people aren't getting sick and dying, we don't have an issue.


Well, people *are* getting sick. Look at the US work absences. I don't know if this is tracked as well in Canada, but I'm sure absences from work in Canada (being out sick with covid) are pretty high as well and they're certainly going to get worse into the winter, if people continue being as reckless as they are today.

Work absences cost money, and sickness also has economic consequences. My $ spending has decreased tremendously this month, being sick.

There are additional concerns that we have to keep in the back of our minds. Covid isn't well understood and there could be longer term health consequences to the illness, and repeatedly catching it. We also can't know, with certainty, the evolutionary path of the virus. There *will* be future mutations and while the current omicron seems benign, it may not always be like that going forward.

These aren't guaranteed to be problems. They are _risks_. There is a lot of uncertainty because this is a new disease, and a new virus, that isn't well understood yet. People should be cautious when dealing with a new unknown thing, like this.



MrMatt said:


> Until covid we didn't cower in fear from the sniffles


People aren't being cautious because of sniffles. People are being cautious because COVID has killed a huge number of people, appears to cause long term disability in some, appears to be at least partially responsible for destroying the livers in some children, and continues to aggressively spread even in summer months.


----------



## james4beach

HappilyRetired said:


> And you think I need lecturing? You really are full of you self aren't you?


Your local high school or college may offer adult classes -- it might be worth investigating. You can even get tax credits and potentially join some of them for free.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Covid isn't well understood and there could be longer term health consequences to the illness, and repeatedly catching it.


I know many people who got COVID and they have lingering effects, even a year later.



> We also can't know, with certainty, the evolutionary path of the virus. There *will* be future mutations and while the current omicron seems benign, it may not always be like that going forward.


I agree with that absolutely.
I've said it many times, we've had Coronaviruses for thousands of years, for longer than all of recorded human history they've been here.
We just got a variant that is particularly deadly and contagious, which happens every few years.
This is all normal and expected, and we've experienced it many times in our lifetimes already, and there are innumerable similar situations throughout history.



> These aren't guaranteed to be problems.


I disagree, we have these types of disease outbreaks every few years, and every now and then we get an even bigger more dangerous outbreak than normal.
It is virtually guaranteed something like COVID, and likely something WORSE will come.



> They are _risks_. There is a lot of uncertainty because this is a new disease, and a new virus, that isn't well understood yet. People should be cautious when dealing with a new unknown thing, like this.


Uhh yeah, just like we should have in 2018/2019 when they were throwing out the "unnecessary" pandemic supplies.



> People aren't being cautious because of sniffles. People are being cautious because COVID has killed a huge number of people, appears to cause long term disability in some, appears to be at least partially responsible for destroying the livers in some children, and continues to aggressively spread even in summer months.


Yes, but those super dangerous variants don't seem to be circulating.
So when the next dangerous variant of the Coronavirus comes around we can start worrying again.

You're looking at this like COVID is some new unique threat we've never experienced.
But it is pretty much a standard biological contagion, a threat we've faced innumerable times into he past, and are likley to face many many more. Heck several of the last big bio-scares were coronavirus variants, COVID19 was about as predictable as you could get.


----------



## sags

There is increasing awareness among doctors that people are being reinfected multiple times and each infection is damaging their T cells.

They believe the damage is causing long Covid and other health problems.

They say that new variants have replaced BA5 and they are making patients sicker.

Docs say that the degree of illness increases with each new infection.

People may be done with Covid but it looks like it isn’t done with them.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> *There is increasing awareness among doctors that people are being reinfected multiple times and each infection is damaging their T cells.
> 
> They believe the damage is causing long Covid and other health problems. *


 ... sounds logical.



> They say that new variants have replaced BA5 and they are making patients sicker.
> *
> Docs say that the degree of illness increases with each new infection.*
> 
> People may be done with Covid but it looks like it isn’t done with them.


 ... but then there're those who think re-infection is the way to go .... making them immune to the point of Superman being immuned to kryptonite.


----------



## sags

Immunity from infection is obviously a myth.

A doctor has been infected 5 times, and each infection he gets worse symptoms.

Many others are reporting multiple infections with no major health issues, then they get another infection and end up in the hospital.

People using studies of the BA5 variant for guidance are behind the curve. The new variants are taking over and they evade immunity.

We are passing time waiting for the mutation that changes everything.


----------



## Money172375

Can you share some sources Sags?


----------



## Money172375

sags said:


> There is increasing awareness among doctors that people are being reinfected multiple times and each infection is damaging their T cells.
> 
> They believe the damage is causing long Covid and other health problems.
> 
> They say that new variants have replaced BA5 and they are making patients sicker.
> 
> Docs say that the degree of illness increases with each new infection.
> 
> People may be done with Covid but it looks like it isn’t done with them.


Sources please.


----------



## james4beach

I'm not aware of what sags is talking about, but one of my top concerns is that COVID infection leads to higher rates of heart attack & stroke. That was one of my concerns with COVID from day one.

I posted several sources below. We don't know whether newer variants (omicron) pose these same risks to heart health. That's why I keep saying -- I'm going to remain cautious (masks etc) trying to prevent catching this, until we know more about what's going on.

Any of you who care about your heart health should read these.









The Risk of Heart Disease after COVID


Some studies suggest that the risk of cardiovascular problems, such as a heart attack or stroke, remains high even many months after a SARS-CoV-2 infection clears up




www.scientificamerican.com













Heart disease after COVID: what the data say


Some studies suggest that the risk of cardiovascular problems, such as a heart attack or stroke, remains high even many months after a SARS-CoV-2 infection clears up. Researchers are starting to pin down the frequency of these issues and what is causing the damage.




www.nature.com







https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2789793


----------



## james4beach

An excerpt from the Scientific American piece I posted above.


In one study this year, researchers used records from the US Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) to estimate how often COVID-19 leads to cardiovascular problems. They found that people who had had the disease faced substantially increased risks for 20 cardiovascular conditions — including potentially catastrophic problems such as heart attacks and strokes — in the year after infection with the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2. *Researchers say that these complications can happen even in people who seem to have completely recovered from a mild infection.*

Some smaller studies have mirrored these findings, but others find lower rates of complications. With millions or perhaps even billions of people having been infected with SARS-CoV-2, clinicians are wondering whether the pandemic will be followed by a cardiovascular aftershock. Meanwhile, researchers are trying to understand who is most at risk of these heart-related problems, how long the risk persists and what causes these symptoms.

It’s a gaping hole in an important area of public health, says Katz. *“We don’t understand if this changes the lifelong trajectory for risk of a heart attack or stroke or other cardiac events — we just don’t know that.”*


----------



## sags

Twitter user @DrEricDing has a thread of studies proving repeat infections of covid are damaging T-cells and causing major health issues.

There are studies out now and lots of discussion on social media about the damage from covid re-infection and long covid.


----------



## HappilyRetired

We do know that heart problems are a well known side effect of the shot. What we don't know is how many heart problems are being blamed on Covid instead of the shot.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I'm not aware of what sags is talking about, but one of my top concerns is that COVID infection leads to higher rates of heart attack & stroke. That was one of my concerns with COVID from day one.
> 
> I posted several sources below. We don't know whether newer variants (omicron) pose these same risks to heart health. That's why I keep saying -- I'm going to remain cautious (masks etc) trying to prevent catching this, until we know more about what's going on.
> 
> Any of you who care about your heart health should read these.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Risk of Heart Disease after COVID
> 
> 
> Some studies suggest that the risk of cardiovascular problems, such as a heart attack or stroke, remains high even many months after a SARS-CoV-2 infection clears up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scientificamerican.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heart disease after COVID: what the data say
> 
> 
> Some studies suggest that the risk of cardiovascular problems, such as a heart attack or stroke, remains high even many months after a SARS-CoV-2 infection clears up. Researchers are starting to pin down the frequency of these issues and what is causing the damage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2789793


1 in 8 who were hospitalized with the flu also had cardiovascular events. similar risk, lower risk? 









How having the flu could damage your heart, increase risk for attack or disease


Don't skip the flu vaccine, especially if you have an elevated risk of heart disease.



www.statesman.com


----------



## Money172375

The “simple” cold also leads to increased heart risks. Just trying to put the covid heart risks in perspective. Appears as those any illness leads to increase heart risk. Since “colds” aren’t going away and we all “live” with them…..what are we to Do?









How Getting Over a Cold Can Give You a Heart Attack


Your slight sickness might be paving the way for something way more serious




www.menshealth.com


----------



## TomB16

Sags, I found an article that shows smoking isn't bad for you. I believe you will find it smooth and satisfying.

My advice is to smoke lightly, at first. Build up a tolerance over time. Don't go smoking a whole pack right away or this non-harmful product will cause you to puke your guts out.









Why Smoking Isn't All Bad


Why I support people who choose to smoke.




www.theodysseyonline.com


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> 1 in 8 who were hospitalized with the flu also had cardiovascular events. similar risk, lower risk?


All the more reason you should try to avoid catching both the flu and covid. I am going to try to avoid catching either one.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Since “colds” aren’t going away and we all “live” with them…..what are we to Do?


Colds are not anywhere as dangerous as Covid is. Influenza is more dangerous, but Covid still stands apart is a greater hazard than these others. For example it causes massive inflammation in just about every organ in the body, something that doesn't happen with these other common illnesses.

Again since we don't fully understand the disease, Covid should be treated as more dangerous for the time being. There are plenty of reasons to think it's more dangerous than the cold or flu.

You asked, what are we to do? We can get smarter:

Wear masks in crowded places, or avoid crowds
Do rapid tests before visiting friends, family, and going to parties
Employees who feel unwell should do rapid tests to make sure they don't bring Covid to work
Teach people to stay at home if you suspect you're not well
Teach people that they can get sick from Covid again, when there are new variants
Teach people that Covid re-infection may harm them in the long term
Public Health should be pushing these messages and leading the education campaign.

This article at Time echoes my points,









COVID-19 Reinfections May Be Common—But They're Not Harmless


Every infection comes with risks




time.com


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Your local high school or college may offer adult classes -- it might be worth investigating. You can even get tax credits and potentially join some of them for free.


You really don't like it when your hypocrisy is pointed out. Perhaps you are the one who needs to learn how to be an adult.


----------



## TomB16

James, I have some good news. 


COVID tracking in the UK (as per Zoe Data) shows a small increase in new symptomatic infections over the last few days.




















ZOE Health Study


Fight major diseases like COVID & cancer logging your health daily with millions of community scientists supporting global health research.




health-study.joinzoe.com






The bad news is COVID lethality is way down, as are cases of severe disease. Also, a fall up tick was predicted so the sky may not actually be falling.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Why look to UK when Canada (your own backyard) has its own cases / study of the after-effects of catching Covid aka "long Covid"? 

Canadian study builds on link between long COVID and autoimmune diseases like lupus



> Camille Bains, The Canadian Press, Thursday, September 22, 2022
> ...
> 
> _Mukherjee, who contracted long COVID herself in January 2021 after starting her research on the illness, said she experienced fatigue, shortness of breath, headaches and brain fog.
> 
> "The headaches used to be so bad, and it relapses. You'll be fine, and then suddenly, you relapse," she said, adding she is back to about 75 per cent of her usual energy level but has learned to prioritize her health over working long hours and ensures she gets enough sleep.
> 
> Mukherjee is now studying long COVID patients over two years to see how their levels of autoantibodies change in the longer term.
> 
> Calgary resident Sarah Olson said long COVID has prevented her from returning to her job as a kindergarten teacher since she contracted the illness in January 2021.
> 
> "There's no such thing as pushing through. You just get sicker and sicker in new ways," said Olson, who has a nine-year-old son and an 11-year-old daughter and deals with brain fog, fatigue, shortness of breath and other symptoms.
> 
> "Until this spring, I couldn't stand still for long but I could walk at a moderate pace. Now, I can't do that anymore. I need a walker. I'll be 41 this Saturday, and I need a walker."
> 
> Olson said she has also been diagnosed with myalgic encephalomyelitis, or chronic fatigue syndrome, though Mukherjee said a definitive link between that debilitating, long-term condition and long COVID has not been established.
> 
> Olson said the main concern is that she will never recover from long COVID.
> 
> "If I'm not able to manage my symptoms by resting and pacing as much as I need to without ever getting stressed out, then I have every reason to believe that I would continue to get worse," she said through tears.
> 
> "The research needs to hit some breakthrough because they're still trying to understand what the underlying cause is," Olson said, adding that could mean treatment options are far off.
> 
> "We're nearly three years in and we're still in the dark in a lot of ways."_


 ... I guess it's good news here if you're a guy and bad news if you're a gal (biologically speaking).


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Colds are not anywhere as dangerous as Covid is.


It is more nuanced than this.

Some colds were probably as dangerous as COVID-19. The difference is, COVID-19 was novel (ie: new) three years ago. First infections caused a lot of problems, including severe disease and death, as the human sphere evolves to deal with this virus. At this point, severe disease and COVID caused death are way down.

I had to write "COVID caused death" because the global death rate is actually way up. There is a ton of data that shows the global death rate is something like 10~30% higher than the 5 year average but only about 4% of that seems to be COVID related. Something is going on.

I believe you are misrepresenting COVID-19 as being as dangerous as it was in the early stages, before everyone got it. It was extremely dangerous, in early times. Fortunately, Omicron causes less severe disease and is far more contageous than early strains.

Covid is no where near as dangerous to the vast bulk of the population now. The weakest of us have been removed from this mortal coil while the rest of us have immune systems which have adapted to COVID-19.

At this point, the majority of BA.5 infections are asymptomatic.


----------



## Beaver101

COVID-19 vaccine uptake for young Ontario children lower than experts had expected

Why is Ontario's fake CMO "surprised" by these results - lower uptake of the vax by the kiddies when he was the hint if not outright tell Ontarians that "the pandemic is over!" Time to look into a mirror and ask who's reflected on there - either a dumbass or a ghost or maybe both.

And then you got more dumbasses working over in the government - on the provincial level instructing the municipal minions to come up with these "un-approved?" (as if its constituents are stupider than a rock), holy money-wasting (your taxes btw) videos? 

City of Toronto pulls children's COVID-19 vaccination video following online backlash


> ...
> 
> _When reached for comment, City of Toronto spokesperson Brad Ross told CTV News Toronto the pandemic has negatively impacted children in a number of different ways.
> 
> “The video created was intended to highlight the impact it has had on children and inform parents and caregivers that vaccines for children are now available,” Ross said.
> 
> “This video missed the mark on that message and should not have been posted.”
> 
> The city says the video is one of a five-part series directed at parents and caregivers about children’s vaccines. The series has now been paused, they said.
> 
> *According to the city, each video cost $4,000 to produce – totaling $20,000 for the series.
> 
> “Any future videos of this nature will undergo a more rigorous approval process to ensure clarity of the message being conveyed before making them public,” Ross sa*id. _


 ... why? How about fire the damn "creator" and "pre-approver" of that video first !!!!


----------



## sags

_*People who get reinfected with the virus that causes COVID-19 have more health risks with each round of reinfection, a large national database study reveals. *

Researchers saw worse health effects during active infection, but some symptoms lasted as long as 6 months, suggesting a direct link between reinfection and long COVID.

"Reinfection adds or contributes additional health risks. It is not totally benign, and people should try to avoid getting reinfected," says lead study author Ziyad Al-Aly, MD._









Each COVID-19 Reinfection Increases Health Risks


Researchers report a cumulative effect in a pre-print study looking at health effects of coronavirus reinfections.




www.webmd.com


----------



## damian13ster

COVID restrictions killed a lot of people - so the rise in amount of deaths beyond covid deaths isn't surprising


----------



## HappilyRetired

damian13ster said:


> COVID restrictions killed a lot of people - so the rise in amount of deaths beyond covid deaths isn't surprising


And there are the vaccine deaths, too.


----------



## sags

My takeaway is to avoid re-infections if you don't want to acquire more serious health problems each time you are infected.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> My takeaway is to avoid re-infections if you don't want to acquire more serious health problems each time you are infected.


Yes, absolutely. It's inevitable we will all catch this once in a while but it's best to try to avoid getting infected.

Covid is more dangerous than colds and flus circulating today, and the disease isn't even well understood. Health impacts will take time to observe. It's possible that we will learn, with time, that Covid doesn't have particularly bad long term effects but it's too early to determine that today.


----------



## damian13ster

No, the data that was posted here shows that it is less dangerous than the flus circulating today


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> No, the data that was posted here shows that it is less dangerous than the flus circulating today


 ... haven't heard you catching Covid, less the flu even. Otherwise, eat your data.


----------



## Beaver101

COVID raises risk of long-term brain injury, large U.S. study finds



> _CHICAGO, Sept 22 (Reuters) - People who had COVID-19 are at higher risk for a host of brain injuries a year later compared with people who were never infected by the coronavirus, a finding that could affect millions of Americans, U.S. researchers reported on Thursday.
> 
> The year-long study, published in Nature Medicine, assessed brain health across 44 different disorders using medical records without patient identifiers from millions of U.S. veterans.
> 
> Brain and other neurological disorders occurred in 7% more of those who had been infected with COVID compared with a similar group of veterans who had never been infected. That translates into roughly 6.6 million Americans who had brain impairments linked with their COVID infections, the team said.
> 
> "The results show the devastating long-term effects of COVID-19," senior author Dr. Ziyad Al-Aly of Washington University School of Medicine said in a statement. ... _


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Covid is more dangerous than colds and flus circulating today, and the disease isn't even well understood.


Why do you keep writing this? It hasn't been true for a while.

Perhaps you are conflating the early COVID statistics with current statistics?


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> Why do you keep writing this? It hasn't been true for a while.


You just don't want to accept it buddy.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> You just don't want to accept it buddy.


There are literally statistics posted here that show covid is less dangerous than flu since arrival of Omicron. You just choose to ignore them and live in your own fear-filled reality


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> There are literally statistics posted here that show covid is less dangerous than flu since arrival of Omicron. You just choose to ignore them and live in your own fear-filled reality


I'm not sure about that. 

I think that some people are unable to grasp that since the dangerous strains of COVID are no longer spreading wildly, we're simply back to the same situation as in 2018.

ie We have the potential for a dangerous strain of the Coronavirus to develop and spread.

Remember several of the more recent pandemic scares were strains of the Coronavirus. Here in Canada we mostly ignored them, except for SARS and COVID19.


----------



## TomB16

Over here, in base reality, cpvod is now less lethal than the flu.

It was more lethal than the flu and pneumonia, prior to omicron. Even annualized numbers that go back to 2021 plus reporting lag show similar or a touch worse. The flu but current death rates are lower than the combonation of flu and pneumonia.

I'm going to stick with the numbers, for now.


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> Over here, in base reality, cpvod is now less lethal than the flu.
> 
> It was more lethal than the flu and pneumonia, prior to omicron. Even annualized numbers that go back to 2021 plus reporting lag show similar or a touch worse. The flu but current death rates are lower than the combonation of flu and pneumonia.
> 
> I'm going to stick with the numbers, for now.


Is death the only thing we're worried about? Lots of evidence that covid causes a lot of disability.


----------



## HappilyRetired

andrewf said:


> Is death the only thing we're worried about? Lots of evidence that covid causes a lot of disability.


And there is lots of evidence that the vaccine causes serious problems, too. It's a double whammy.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> I think that some people are unable to grasp that since the dangerous strains of COVID are no longer spreading wildly, we're simply back to the same situation as in 2018.


That's not quite it.

Current strains appear to be less dangerous, but the studies are still under way -- and one shouldn't jump to conclusions, unless you want to gamble with your life.

Studies with the earlier strains showed evidence of some important health problems popping up (huge range, not just long covid, but also heart & stroke). Then we get omicron. Scientists have barely had any time to study the impacts of omicron, this is all so new.

One thing that changed is re-infection. Omicron is aggressively re-infecting people, so that's a new situation. *Preliminary studies appear to show hazards associated with repeated infection* -- it may not be a harmless thing.

I think it's smarter to be on the side of caution. Since inception, Covid strains have been pretty dangerous.

Eventually we will know if Omicron and everything after it is harmless. We don't know the answer to that yet. Better to be cautious IMO, you only get one body.


----------



## sags

Covid isn't over.

People are still getting sick, hospitalized, in the ICU, on ventilators and dying.

The media just stop talking about it all the time.





__





Loading…






www.cbc.ca


----------



## MrMatt

MrMatt said:


> I think that some people are unable to grasp that since the dangerous strains of COVID are no longer spreading wildly, we're simply back to the same situation as in 2018.





james4beach said:


> That's not quite it.
> 
> Current strains appear to be less dangerous, but the studies are still under way -- and one shouldn't jump to conclusions, unless you want to gamble with your life.


Actually that's EXACTLY it.

There are diseases out there, we don't know where they are, or how dangerous they are.
I would bet that there is a strain of some virus, out there, in the wild today, that is more dangerous than any of the documented COVID19 strains.

In 2019, when COVID existed, and you were travelling between countries, you were gambling with your life.
Did you visit people in December 2019? 
We now have data suggesting COVID19 was here in North America then.

What precautions did you take? Were you "gambling with your life".
Absolutely.

It was ALWAYS a gamble.

The thing that is driving me crazy is people like you who think that COVID19 is somehow new and unique, this type of thing HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. It's normal and should be expected, remember after SARS they spoke about how the next pandemic virus will likely be worse and a cornavirus? Did you take precautions then? When they warned us "next time it will likely be worse", did you keep gambling?

The risk hasn't really changed, only your perception.


----------



## TomB16

andrewf said:


> Is death the only thing we're worried about? Lots of evidence that covid causes a lot of disability.


Ok, and how has that changed in the era of omicron?


I tend to be skeptical of 3/12/24 month studies of long omicron.

Meanwhile, the narrative that repeated omicron infections are disabling is suspect, to say the least. Omicron infections tend to be so mild as to be contained to the mucosal box. It seems physiologically unlikely a mucosal infection could cause long covid.

This thread is an echo chamber of fake information and bad data.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Over here, in base reality, *cpvod is now less lethal than the flu.*
> 
> It was more lethal than the flu and pneumonia, prior to omicron. Even annualized numbers that go back to 2021 plus reporting lag show similar or a touch worse. *The flu but current death rates are lower than the combonation of flu and pneumonia.*
> 
> I'm going to stick with the numbers, for now.





TomB16 said:


> Ok, and how has that changed in the era of omicron?
> 
> *I tend to be skeptical of 3/12/24 month studies of long omicron.*
> 
> Meanwhile, the narrative that repeated omicron infections are disabling is suspect, to say the least. Omicron infections tend to be so mild as to be contained to the mucosal box. It seems physiologically unlikely a mucosal infection could cause long covid.
> 
> This thread is an echo chamber of fake information and bad data.


 ... so which is it? Are you saying It's okay to get Omicron but not the flu since the latter is deadlier (according to you). And are you saying the Omicron don't induce long term effects but the flu does? So has the flu disappear or Omicron over-taken the flu? Make up your mind.

I get you would rather prize Omicron than anything else. Let's hope Omicron stays as tame as it is ... like a teddy bear sitting on the shelf, waiting to be walloped with a fast pitch ... like those games over at the CNE=Canadian National Exhibition like any other games and ride s amusement park.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver, think about it. Omicron has been around for about 9 months.

Any 3/12/24 month studies of long omicron are unlikely to stand up to an audit.

Even the idea of long term disabling from a variant that has been around for only nine months with little sequencing is suspect.

These things could turn out to be true but they are speculation, at this point.

There are a group of folks here who want to prosecute a negative narrative. They literally get upset at positive news. That is not objective conduct. True objectivity will scrutinize the quality of all data and consider any data which seems to be collected objectively. This skill is required to be a successful value investor, IMO.


----------



## TomB16

More on why I ignore the current negative narrative.

I've had the Wuhan and omicron variants. I may have had omicron twice, as I had to blow my nose three times over a two day period in July. That is not a mock. Three times. Three tissues. I counted. It wasn't difficult.

What if I had long covid? I could report symptoms of long covid.

I am 100% sure I had Wuhan and 90% sure I've had omicron. Neither was sequenced so this is speculation based on the dominant variant when I contracted covid.

Would I become a statistic supporting a long omicron narrative? How would we know its omicron and not the wuhan infection which caused it?

We don't sequence infections so consider me skeptical at the validity of attributing long omicron to a specific variant.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Beaver, think about it. Omicron has been around for about 9 months.
> 
> Any 3/12/24 month studies of long omicron are unlikely to stand up to an audit.
> 
> Even the idea of long term disabling from a variant that has been around for only nine months with little sequencing is suspect.
> 
> These things could turn out to be true but they are speculation, at this point.
> 
> There are a group of folks here who want to prosecute a negative narrative. They literally get upset at positive news. That is not objective conduct. True objectivity will scrutinize the quality of all data and consider any data which seems to be collected objectively. This skill is required to be a successful value investor, IMO.





TomB16 said:


> More on why I ignore the current negative narrative.
> 
> I've had the Wuhan and omicron variants. I may have had omicron twice, as I had to blow my nose three times over a two day period in July. That is not a mock. Three times. Three tissues. I counted. It wasn't difficult.
> 
> What if I had long covid? I could report symptoms of long covid.
> 
> I am 100% sure I had Wuhan and 90% sure I've had omicron. Neither was sequenced so this is speculation based on the dominant variant when I contracted covid.
> 
> Would I become a statistic supporting a long omicron narrative? How would we know its omicron and not the wuhan infection which caused it?
> 
> We don't sequence infections so consider me skeptical at the validity of attributing long omicron to a specific variant.


 ... let me ask you a simple question (actually like a repeat):

Is it in your belief that the news reported about people who are suffering from long Covid effects are "fake"? And I don't give a crxp about what version of Covid you or the other person got. A simple "yes" or "no" here will suffice.

Keep in mind you, I, and everybody else on this planet reacts differently.

Try putting yourself in their shoes for once and then re-visit your accusation of others pushing a negative narrative.


----------



## TomB16

A simple yes or no will not suffice.

Long covid seems to be a thing. There is plenty of evidence to support further study.

Keep in mind, spontaneous acceleration in Tesla cars was a thing and there were quite a few people signing onto the idea, until it was debunked.

Consider fibromialgia. This is one of the most over diagnosed conditions and a lot of people have it who would probably be better served with psychological help.

Bad ideas grow legs quickly.

Iong covid needs to be studied. The data and collection methods need to be scrutinized.

What I am arguing is that things have improved substantially, in the era of omicron. There is plenty of objective data to support this. (Ie: ONS, Zoe)

When is the last time someone cited the current covid death rate or hospitalisation rate? Both are a fraction of what they were in the early days, thanks to omicron and herd immunity. And yet, we frequently still talk about covid having a 1% mortality rate.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> *A simple yes or no will not suffice.*
> 
> Long covid seems to be a thing. There is plenty of evidence to support further study.
> 
> Keep in mind, spontaneous acceleration in Tesla cars was a thing and there were quite a few people signing onto the idea, until it was debunked.
> 
> *Consider fibromialgia. This is one of the most over diagnosed conditions and a lot of people have it who would probably be better served with psychological help. *
> 
> Bad ideas grow legs quickly.
> 
> Iong covid needs to be studied. The data and collection methods need to be scrutinized.
> 
> What I am arguing is that things have improved substantially, in the era of omicron. *There is plenty of objective data to support this. * (Ie: ONS, Zoe)
> 
> When is the last time someone cited the current covid death rate or hospitalisation rate? Both are a fraction of what they were in thevearlybdays, thanks to omicron and herd immunity.


 ... looks like you want to be a "medical expert" with the "maybe" response. Ie. nothing definitive, the 2 sides of the mouth talking - always with an escape hatch.


----------



## james4beach

For those of you who actually care about your health, you should know that catching Covid -- yes omicron -- and catching it again, may be quite harmful.

Here's an article about an immunologist's experience with Covid. A very healthy, athletic, quadruple-vaccinated immunologist decided to let his guard down. At first he was thinking it was going to be just a cold. Like Tom and many other people here, he really didn't think it was anything to worry about.

“After all, isn't it just a cold in fully immunized people? And once I've had it, won't I have acquired immunity that will mean I won't get sick at all if I get it again?"​
He caught omicron. *Then instead of recovering, he got acute myocarditis and congestive heart failure.*

In this article this immunology expert addresses several myths. Here are some of the main points he makes:

COVID hits the body very differently than a common cold
Colds don't leave 2.3% of athletes with inflamed hearts
Colds don't worsen the outcomes of subsequent re-infections
Risk of heart, brain, kidney problems increase with each re-infection
Don't stop using masks, or social distancing
Catching COVID two or three times a year is not acceptable -- it's not a good idea to catch Covid repeatedly









‘I'm Dropping My COVID Hubris,’ Vows a Top Immunologist | The Tyee


After the virus harmed Chris Goodnow’s heart, he joined a growing chorus against reinfection complacency.




thetyee.ca


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> For those of you who actually care about your health, you should know that catching Covid -- yes omicron -- and catching it again, may be quite harmful.
> 
> Here's an article about an immunologist's experience with Covid. A very healthy, athletic, quadruple-vaccinated immunologist decided to let his guard down. At first he was thinking it was going to be just a cold. Like Tom and many other people here, he really didn't think it was anything to worry about.
> 
> “After all, isn't it just a cold in fully immunized people? And once I've had it, won't I have acquired immunity that will mean I won't get sick at all if I get it again?"​
> He caught omicron. *Then instead of recovering, he got acute myocarditis and congestive heart failure.*
> 
> In this article this immunology expert addresses several myths. Here are some of the main points he makes:
> 
> COVID hits the body very differently than a common cold
> Colds don't leave 2.3% of athletes with inflamed hearts
> Colds don't worsen the outcomes of subsequent re-infections
> Risk of heart, brain, kidney problems increase with each re-infection
> Don't stop using masks, or social distancing
> Catching COVID two or three times a year is not acceptable -- it's not a good idea to catch Covid repeatedly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘I'm Dropping My COVID Hubris,’ Vows a Top Immunologist | The Tyee
> 
> 
> After the virus harmed Chris Goodnow’s heart, he joined a growing chorus against reinfection complacency.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thetyee.ca


Myocarditis is a well known side effect of the shot.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> For those of you who actually care about your health, you should know that catching Covid -- yes omicron -- and catching it again, may be quite harmful.
> 
> Here's an article about an immunologist's experience with Covid. A very healthy, athletic, quadruple-vaccinated immunologist decided to let his guard down. At first he was thinking it was going to be just a cold. Like Tom and many other people here, he really didn't think it was anything to worry about.
> 
> “After all, isn't it just a cold in fully immunized people? And once I've had it, won't I have acquired immunity that will mean I won't get sick at all if I get it again?"​


I'll hold up this example as why listening to "experts" is problematic
He's allegedly an "immunologist", but just look at this quote, and tell me if you think he's a competent authority.

“After all, isn't it just a cold in fully immunized people? And once I've had it, won't I have acquired immunity that will mean I won't get sick at all if I get it again?"
1. No COVID isn't a cold. It's different, and acts differently than conventional coronaviruses, remember all that "novel coronoavirus" crap (like saying novel instead of new somehow makes you more "expert"
2. We've known from the beginning that the vaccinations weren't very effective, I would think a quad vaxxed immunologist would know this.
3. Never in the history of Coronaviruses have they had longstanding immunity, but he thought he'd get "acquired immunity", and he claims to be an immunologist?

Also I'd like to point out that the risk is the new variants, and though the article doesn't clearly state it, based on the phrasing of the article, I believe that this person got one of the new variants.

In short my summary is 
1. Experts can be wrong,
2. New variants have been, and always will be a risk.
3. My opinion is that the current risk of current variants appears moderately low. I had a different opinion when I took the AZ vaccine, which has been pulled due to safety concerns.

Really If millions and millions of people catch COVID, or the flu, or a cold, or any disease/virus, some will have exceptionally bad outcomes.
The thing is the shots have side effects, several Canadians are awaiting compensation from the government that has resulted in very significant damage.

I don't want to live in a state of perpetual lockdown for what is currently a low risk.
I don't wander around worrying about TB or cholera either, because it's currently a low risk.


----------



## sags

I think the point of the latest research is being missed.

Covid is always mutating and is still spreading and re-infecting people over and over.

Each re-infection causes more damage. A person may have little symptoms the first couple of re-infections and then have severe health problems.

There is no "safe" level of re-infections, because the scientists are continually playing catch up to understand the mutations.

It shouldn't be surprising that vaccinations for past strains are ineffective for new strains. That simply means we will continually need new vaccines.

If a new deadly strain is discovered, it will likely be a global disaster of unprecedented scale, because people have been sowing so much doubt and distrust on the expert opinions......that people won't listen anymore.

It is doubtful that government could enforce restrictions that would save people.

The public will have to be in total panic mode at the bodies piling up before they listen to government mandates.


----------



## Beaver101

^ That's okay 'cause some "believes" it's a way of nature to cull the population and so it's not a problem for them as then it'll be the "more for me, me, me" concept. 

Needless to say, there're humanoids on this planet that are just plain "EVIL".


----------



## sags

The problem with raw numbers.......or the data that some lean into heavily for information, is they don't tell the whole story.

Even 100 extra patients due to covid, creates a ripple effect in hospitals.....where nurses and doctors are moved from other areas to treat patients.

The hospitals didn't "staff up" to treat additional covid patients, because there is nobody available to hire. Our biggest hospital is short.......500 nurses.

Think about that.....500 vacant nursing positions in one hospital in one Ontario city with a population of 515,000 people, and we just had an influx of another 30,000 students for Western University and Fanshawe College who will make use the hospital. In fact, police, paramedics, and hospitals were busy with students who were hurt this weekend during the drunken FROSH parties.

All this backlog pushed back surgeries and other treatments and created the long waiting list we now have.

Our ERs are so backed up with long waiting times, that many people just don't go when they should. Doctors are saying patients are coming in more acutely ill and needing more intensive treatment because they delayed going to the ER because of the backlog of patients.

It often isn't as simple as raw data would indicate.









London hospital 'thrilled' with fast-tracking of foreign-trained nurses


London Health Sciences Centre is looking to foreign-trained nurses to help it fill more than 500 nursing vacancies, applauding a provincial move to get more of…




lfpress.com


----------



## Beaver101

^ Arm-chair critics aka bsh1t-shooters.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> He's allegedly an "immunologist", but just look at this quote, and tell me if you think he's a competent authority.


That's a rhetorical statement you quoted. He's using the common phrase that's echoed by many people these days and trying to make a point about how he was complacent. And yes scientists do make mistakes, that's true.

Many doctors make mistakes. That doesn't mean we should ignore them entirely. This doc is sharing an important story: he started off being complacent about the danger of covid (omicron), but now he's more concerned about the impact on a person's organs, especially the heart.



MrMatt said:


> Also I'd like to point out that the risk is the new variants


Yes new variants are a risk, but I think you're still missing the point that the current one (omicron) still appears to be dangerous. It causes heart inflammation in many healthy people and is associated with damage to several organs. That's with omicron -- it's not a harmless infection.

Remember, this guy himself experienced *heart failure after an omicron infection.*

@MrMatt the government is lying to you again, saying this is harmless. In Canada we don't even track statistics that would recognize that a 50 year old man, showing up in the hospital with heart failure, was connected to a COVID infection. They won't call that a COVID-related hospitalization because he won't test positive by the time he starts to have heart problems. The government has decided to be blind to the after-effects of COVID infections.



MrMatt said:


> Really If millions and millions of people catch COVID, or the flu, or a cold, or any disease/virus, some will have exceptionally bad outcomes.


You're under playing just how prevalent COVID is. It's circulating like wildfire. The government refuses to track it. And people are catching COVID 2 or 3 times in a year, which doesn't happen with the flu. Yes influenza is dangerous, but on average a person catches it less than once a year. COVID is far more infectious and is circulating aggressively.



MrMatt said:


> I don't want to live in a state of perpetual lockdown for what is currently a low risk.


You're under estimating the risk IMO, and nobody is suggesting lockdown anyway. I would recommend you wear a mask around other people to protect yourself, against what could damage your heart / lungs / other organs.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Yes new variants are a risk, but I think you're still missing the point that the current one (omicron) still appears to be dangerous. It causes heart inflammation in many healthy people and is associated with damage to several organs. That's with omicron -- it's not a harmless infection.
> 
> Remember, this guy himself experienced *heart failure after an omicron infection.*


Read it again, it wasn't Omicron, it was a variant.



> You're under playing just how prevalent COVID is. It's circulating like wildfire.


And where did I say that COVID isn't highly prevalent?



> The government refuses to track it. And people are catching COVID 2 or 3 times in a year, which doesn't happen with the flu.


Yes, because humans don't develop immunity to Coronaviruses, that's why for decades they've said the next pandemic is likely to be a coronavirus, and why back in early 2020 I was showing research supporting my position that they wouldn't develop an effective vaccine.



> Yes influenza is dangerous, but on average a person catches it less than once a year. COVID is far more infectious and is circulating aggressively.


Absolutely, because a coronavirus is NOT an influenza virus, just like an eagle isn't a shark.



> You're under estimating the risk IMO, and nobody is suggesting lockdown anyway. I would recommend you wear a mask around other people to protect yourself, against what could damage your heart / lungs / other organs.


I think that you underestimated the risk before COVID, or you're overestimating the risk now.
The actual risk profile hasn't changed significantly vs what it was 5 years ago, just your perspective.

Remember, SARS (the previous Coronavirus we paid attention to) was far more lethal than COVID19.

Also there were other coronaviruses we ignored, because they weren't that prevalent in North America.

I'm not saying you're overreacting, just that the difference in your behaviour in 2022 vs 2018 is by a shift in your perspective.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> That's a rhetorical statement you quoted. He's using the common phrase that's echoed by many people these days and trying to make a point about how he was complacent. And yes scientists do make mistakes, that's true.


Isn't that the problem? 
"They" have been lying and misrepresenting the situation the whole time.

The real question is if we're in anymore risk than normal, and I think that we're only at marginally more risk right now.

Unless there is a new variant, like the variant this doctor got, that catch on and spread like crazy, it's really a non issue going forward.
lacking new, more contagious variants, the risk is close to baseline IMO.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> The real question is if we're in anymore risk than normal, and I think that we're only at marginally more risk right now.
> 
> Unless there is a new variant, like the variant this doctor got, that catch on and spread like crazy, it's really a non issue going forward.


The article says he caught a subvariant of Omicron. There have been many subvariants of Omicron. The viruses circulating today are part of the same lineage are they not? What are you reading differently in the article?


----------



## damian13ster

ArriveCAN-related ‘issue’ impacted U.S. crews at border during storm Fiona: Nova Scotia Power | Globalnews.ca


Feds denied Sunday that the power crews from Maine headed to help Canada amid post-tropical storm Fiona were delayed at the border due to the ArriveCAN app.




globalnews.ca


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Remember, this guy himself experienced *heart failure after an omicron infection.*


Actually, he contracted myocarditis after getting the vaccine. It's a well known side effect.


----------



## james4beach

I wanted to share a tip about Rapid Tests.

Here's how I'm collecting the swab sample, and it seems to work -- I've had several positive results for 9 days now. I haven't had a single negative test while sick.

I'm doing just the nose swabs. I go up a nostril, only as far as it's comfortable, and rotate the swab about 10 times (circular paths) slowly. While making those circles I also twist the swab a bit for some extra roll. Then I repeat in the other nostril.

In the buffer solution, I stir this pretty vigorously. So it's not just a dip into the liquid but a pretty good stir.

When reading the result, go to a very bright light. Sometimes the pink T (test) line is faint, but that's still positive, no matter how faint. So make sure you're using good lighting!


----------



## Birder

james4beach said:


> I've had several positive results for 9 days now. I haven't had a single negative test while sick.


I am surprised that you are still testing positive. Do you think that means you are still contagious? Would you care to share what your symptoms have been? Thanks.


----------



## james4beach

Birder said:


> I am surprised that you are still testing positive. Do you think that means you are still contagious? Would you care to share what your symptoms have been? Thanks.


It's normal for rapid tests to show positive results while someone has COVID, with symptoms. My symptoms have not disappeared yet. The rapid tests may still show positive results for several days after symptoms disappear. The positive test shows virus is in your body, but it can also be picking up dead and mangled viruses according to this article. So a positive result doesn't necessarily mean you're infectious.

The guidance is to wait 5 to 7 days after the big symptoms (fever) resolves, but more importantly to wear a mask to protect others in public. It's really hard to know when you stop being infectious so it's really important that you wear a mask.

Here were my symptoms. I'm guessing that I caught BA5 because it's most common, but that's just a guess.

Initially -- sore throat, difficulty sleeping, hoarse and raspy voice
Then two days of -- fever, chills, muscle aches, shivering, awful sleep (this part was awful)
Moved into -- regular cold symptoms, runny nose/sinus congestion
Symptoms have spanned a total of 12 days so far.

My friend who caught the same virus had different symptoms. He didn't have as much runny nose and sinus congestion. He had a very severe headache, which I never had.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> The article says he caught a subvariant of Omicron. There have been many subvariants of Omicron. The viruses circulating today are part of the same lineage are they not? What are you reading differently in the article?


Uhh, nothing.
The current widely circulating variants aren't showing themselves to be particularly dangerous.

New variants are popping up that are a bit more dangerous. This is the normal and expected situation.


For example typically Coronaviruses are not particularly dangerous.
Some variants occasionally pop up that are more dangerous
SARS, MERS, COVID19 (alpha, delta, some of these omicron variants)

I see the situation as normal, you see the situation as abnormal.
I see the risk of new coronavirus (and other virus) variants popping up that could cause significant problems as the normal situation.
You seem to suggest you think there is a much higher risk today.

It isn't like we have more coronavirus out there than we had in the past, if anything we likely have less than we did in the past (since we do have vaccines and enhanced control measures that should be reducing spread).
There is a reason the flu season wasn't as severe, increased flu uptake and increased cleaning and control measures, both of which apply to Coronaviruses.


We're clearly reading the same article, but you've got a different perspective.
I think things are close to normal, as in 2018 normal. I get the idea you don't.
It isn't like dangerous coronavirus variants are a new thing.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> It's normal for rapid tests to show positive results while someone has COVID, with symptoms. My symptoms have not disappeared yet. The rapid tests may still show positive results for several days after symptoms disappear. The positive test shows virus is in your body, but it can also be picking up dead and mangled viruses according to this article. So a positive result doesn't necessarily mean you're infectious.
> 
> The guidance is to wait 5 to 7 days after the big symptoms (fever) resolves, but more importantly to wear a mask to protect others in public. It's really hard to know when you stop being infectious so it's really important that you wear a mask.
> 
> Here were my symptoms. I'm guessing that I caught BA5 because it's most common, but that's just a guess.
> 
> Initially -- sore throat, difficulty sleeping, hoarse and raspy voice
> Then two days of -- fever, chills, muscle aches, shivering, awful sleep (this part was awful)
> Moved into -- regular cold symptoms, runny nose/sinus congestion
> Symptoms have spanned a total of 12 days so far.
> 
> My friend who caught the same virus had different symptoms. He didn't have as much runny nose and sinus congestion. He had a very severe headache, which I never had.


 ... and hopefully you recover without any long effects of Covid. You can even get long effects from the annual "flu", take it from me. If you need details, I would be more than happy to share them with anyone.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Uhh, nothing.
> The current widely circulating variants aren't showing themselves to be particularly dangerous.
> 
> New variants are popping up that are a bit more dangerous. This is the normal and expected situation.
> 
> 
> For example typically Coronaviruses are not particularly dangerous.
> Some variants occasionally pop up that are more dangerous
> SARS, MERS, COVID19 (alpha, delta, some of these omicron variants)
> 
> I see the situation as normal, you see the situation as abnormal.
> I see the risk of new coronavirus (and other virus) variants popping up that could cause significant problems as the normal situation.
> You seem to suggest you think there is a much higher risk today.
> 
> It isn't like we have more coronavirus out there than we had in the past, if anything we likely have less than we did in the past (since we do have vaccines and enhanced control measures that should be reducing spread).
> There is a reason the flu season wasn't as severe, increased flu uptake and increased cleaning and control measures, both of which apply to Coronaviruses.
> 
> 
> We're clearly reading the same article, but you've got a different perspective.
> I think things are close to normal, as in 2018 normal. I get the idea you don't.
> It isn't like dangerous coronavirus variants are a new thing.


 ... no need to downplay it MrMatt (and TomB16). No one wants your bugs even they're free, Covid or not.


----------



## Beaver101

For Ontarians 18+ not in the specialty categories, bivalent Covid vaccine is available starting today (Sept. 26, 2022). Here's the link (Ontario's Covid vaccine booking portal) if you're interested:

How to book a COVID-19 vaccine appointment


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Myocarditis is a well known side effect of the shot.


 ... for someone who either suffers from the side effect or know someone else who suffered the side effect of the Covid vaccine, you sure know how to whine and only know how to do this when you can be spending time filling out or advising the sufferer to fill out a form (can't recall specific name) to claim compensation, if indeed the side effect is/was detrimental.


----------



## james4beach

I recommend watching this talk from Bonnie Henry (BC's Provincial Health Officer) in her September update.

Notice that she doesn't say that it's time to forget about all safety measures nor does she say we're in the clear. Instead, she says to think carefully about what activities you're doing and take appropriate precautions. Stay at home if you feel unwell. Wear a mask if you're in crowded places.

She emphasizes that this is not a "normal" situation, and things are likely to get worse in November-December. This is pretty much in line with the points I've been making.


----------



## damian13ster

Well, of course. If she admits things are back to normal, she is back to being largely irrelevant.
No power, no fame, no endorsements, future book deals, etc. - whenever listening to people, you always have to be aware of their biases


----------



## james4beach

A reminder to you older folks that there's lots of Paxlovid available.

If you're high risk (older) and have cold or flu symptoms, do the rapid tests *immediately* to see if you have Covid. If you're positive, call your doctor to see if they'll prescribe you Paxlovid. Rapid tests rarely give false positives, so if you test positive, you have Covid.

In my case, my initial symptoms were very mild and I ignored them. On day 1 or 2, it barely seemed like anything, but it got much worse a few days later. So make sure you test immediately, even with mild symptoms. Otherwise you may not realize it's Covid in time to get Paxlovid treatment.

Hundreds of thousands of COVID-19 antivirals are sitting on shelves across Canada


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> If you're positive, call your doctor to see if they'll prescribe you Paxlovid.


_Paxlovid "needs to be started within the first five days to have the best effect, and preferably within the first three days," said Leung in an interview. 
The medication can be obtained from more than 4,000 pharmacies around Ontario, but people need to contact their doctors first to get prescriptions._

First you need to have a doctor. That eliminates around 2 million people in Ontario. I don't see myself standing in line with COVID at the walk-in clinic for six hours to get that prescription.

ltr


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Well, of course. If she admits things are back to normal, she is back to being largely irrelevant.
> No power, no fame, no endorsements, future book deals, etc. - whenever listening to people, you always have to be aware of their biases


 ... this is the most IRRELEVANT post I have ever read if not the STUPIDEST one.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> A reminder to you older folks that there's lots of Paxlovid available.
> 
> If you're high risk (older) and have cold or flu symptoms, do the rapid tests *immediately* to see if you have Covid. If you're positive, call your doctor to see if they'll prescribe you Paxlovid. Rapid tests rarely give false positives, so if you test positive, you have Covid.
> 
> In my case, my initial symptoms were very mild and I ignored them. On day 1 or 2, it barely seemed like anything, but it got much worse a few days later. So make sure you test immediately, even with mild symptoms. Otherwise you may not realize it's Covid in time to get Paxlovid treatment.
> 
> Hundreds of thousands of COVID-19 antivirals are sitting on shelves across Canada


 ... I think they should have distributed (of course, with their existing doctors' rx) those Paxlovids to the existing high risk patients instead of letting them sit on the shelf, waiting for them to be prescribed aka expire then.


----------



## like_to_retire

Beaver101 said:


> I think they should have distributed (of course, with their existing doctors' rx) those Paxlovids to the existing high risk patients instead of letting them sit on the shelf, waiting for them to be prescribed aka expire then.


Totally agree. They could have distributed them at the cash at Shopper Drug Mart like they do with the Free Rapid Tests if you just ask for them.

Then, just like I have several packages of Rapid Tests in my medicine cabinet, I would have several packages of Paxlovid.

ltr


----------



## james4beach

like_to_retire said:


> Totally agree. They could have distributed them at the cash at Shopper Drug Mart like they do with the Free Rapid Tests if you just ask for them.


Except the drug can have some pretty serious side effects and drug interactions. So it's not to be taken "lightly" or casually.

I agree that not having a doctor is a big problem here. I wonder if calling a walk-in clinic could be enough to get a prescription? No idea.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I can't see why not unless the doctor of the walk-in is unwilling. But then that unwillingness comes with an question - why not?


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> I agree that not having a doctor is a big problem here. I wonder if calling a walk-in clinic could be enough to get a prescription? No idea.


Nope.

ltr


----------



## sags

Some drug that vets typically give to large animals is currently spreading across America as the latest drug of choice.

It causes such a relaxed state.....that people who take it are standing in the street asleep.

There are videos on Youtube showing people bent over or standing up sleeping. 

It is a bizarre scene in some inner cities.....with immobile people standing in the street or sidewalk sound asleep.

I shudder to think what would happen if the government allowed Paxlovid to be purchased without a prescription.

There are too many stupid people in the world.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Real-life zombies?


----------



## TomB16

I am generally happy with the relaxation of COVID travel restrictions.

My only issue is removal of mask requirement on airplanes but this may be my view that this requirement weeded out people who ought to be removed from the travel pool. The folks who go berserk at the requirement to wear a mask are the same people who would trip you on your way to an exit in an emergency, so I was happy to see a tiny bit of problem caused to self serving jerks. On the other hand, I have no doubt the no-fly lists will be expunged in a year or two and it will be back to survival of the fittest.

We will continue to wear masks on flights. It will be interesting to see how many do. I suspect it will be extreme few by the middle of the next year.


----------



## sags

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Real-life zombies?


Pretty much. It is weird......with people standing on the sidewalk doubled over and asleep. I forget the name of the drug but it is getting widespread use.

There is no law that allows police to arrest and detain such people. It isn't against the law to be homeless or standing on the street asleep.

Maybe they need to bring back laws where people can be detained and held in secure psych hospitals if they are deemed a danger to themselves or others.

A lot of the people are young too, and many are highly educated. It is a crazy situation developing but not on the mainstream news yet.


----------



## kcowan

TomB16 said:


> I am generally happy with the relaxation of COVID travel restrictions.
> 
> My only issue is removal of mask requirement on airplanes but this may be my view that this requirement weeded out people who ought to be removed from the travel pool. The folks who go berserk at the requirement to wear a mask are the same people who would trip you on your way to an exit in an emergency, so I was happy to see a tiny bit of problem caused to self serving jerks. On the other hand, I have no doubt the no-fly lists will be expunged in a year or two and it will be back to survival of the fittest.
> 
> We will continue to wear masks on flights. It will be interesting to see how many do. I suspect it will be extreme few by the middle of the next year.


The HEPA filters on planes are as effective as the ones in our dentist's office. I wear the mask when going to the rest room and exiting the plane. Otherwise, it is fine.


----------



## zinfit

Some people here seem to be taking their cues from the President of China. Agreed that Omicron is very infectious but its effects are mild. The need for restrictions and impositions are dead and it's time to let it go. It's okay to crawl out from under your bed and venture out into society. The sky is not falling.


----------



## sags

Mild for some… not so mild for others.

You pays your money and takes your chances.


----------



## Beaver101

I'm not worried about Omicron, especially after getting the bivalent vax. 

I'm more worried about the annual flu - those shots are not yet available and I heard alot of sneezing and hackings whilst riding the public transit today.


----------



## james4beach

A friend texted me today, around age 40, triple vaccinated.

He caught covid a second time and says it's actually worse than his first time.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver Bickerton said:


> I'm not worried about Omicron, especially after getting the bivalent vax.


This sounds like a shift in attitude. You were previously upset by data which showed lowered amount of severe disease and reduced death rate.

Also, its good to hear you ventured out of your fallout shelter to ride public transit.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> This sounds like a shift in attitude.


 ... first, when did my surname changed to Bickerton?



> You were previously upset by data which showed lowered amount of severe disease and reduced death rate.


 ... no I wasn't upset by data which showed lowered amount severe disease and reduced death rate...that's your twisted interpretation. I was upset that Omicron can still make you sick, so you and everybody else in a generous-sharing mood can pass on this freebie(s).



> Also, its good to hear you ventured out of your fallout shelter to ride public transit.


 ... huh? I have been riding the public transit as long as I can remember - when a fare only costed a dime (for a kid of course) and some of its employees are just plain JERKS. And how do you suppose I get my groceries, go to the dentist, go visit my friends, etc. do my usual travel around time all this time, pandemic or not?

Btw, the only time I hide under my bed is when I get to bicker with you on CMF. More exciting this way - like looking for the bogeyman or some monster below to pull out - soon used for Halloween decorations.


----------



## TomB16

If your real last name is not Bickerton, I suggest changing it. There is no name more appropriate.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> If your real last name is not Bickerton, I suggest changing it. There is no name more appropriate.


 ... thanks for your suggestion but I'm fine with the 101, just like you're with B16.


----------



## Beaver101

Less than one per cent of U of T students requested vax mandate exemption

Comply or be prepared for a 'good-bye' at these 3 Unis.

_



Sharif Hassan , The Canadian Press, Wednesday, September 28, 2022 

*Less than one per cent of the 8,400 University of Toronto students living on campus have requested an exemption to its triple-COVID-19-shot mandate, the school said Wednesday.*

The university did not say how many exemption requests have been granted, or how many students have not had a booster dose, but said the "*vast majority" of those living on campus received three shots before arriving.*

“The decision to require a booster dose – which is consistent with the province’s booster recommendation – was made to support the health and well-being of students in residence and enable them to get the most out of their on-campus experience,” the university wrote in a statement.
“The vast majority of students in residence were able to be vaccinated with a booster prior to moving into residence.”

*Western University has also mandated three doses, but for all students and employees, not just those living on campus -- the only university in Canada to do so. *

The London, Ont., school did not provide numbers Wednesday on how many students have already submitted proof of their booster shots ahead of a January deadline, or how many have asked for exemptions to the policy.

Earlier this month, Western extended the deadline to submit proof of vaccination from Oct. 1 to Jan. 9, 2023, after Health Canada approved the Omicron-targeting vaccine, which became available to all adults in Ontario this week.

"This provided members of the campus community the option to get a booster shot in early September or one of the new bivalent vaccines when available or to get boosted in early September with the current vaccine in order to be eligible again in 90 days for a bivalent vaccine," the university said in a statement Wednesday.

*Western did not say whether any students who have refused to comply with the mandate have faced consequences, but said students are able to withdraw and receive a refund without giving a reason.*

In August, a protest against Western's mandate drew hundreds of people to campus, including students who criticized the university's decision to announce the policy days before the start of the school year and at a time when mandates have been lifted in nearly all other settings. Some in attendance vowed to push to overturn it.

In their Wednesday statement, *Western noted that a recent ruling by the Ontario Superior Court on a challenge by five students supported the university's vaccine mandate. 

"The court’s finding supports Western’s position that the collection of proof of vaccination is necessary for the effective administration of our vaccination policy. Vaccination is an important measure in protecting our community members and preserving our in-person learning experience," the school said.

Trent University is also requiring those living in residence to have two doses. The three schools are virtually the only places in Canada that remain subject to a vaccine mandate.

...*

Click to expand...

_


----------



## sags

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574850274992201728


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> A friend texted me today, around age 40, triple vaccinated.
> 
> He caught covid a second time and says it's actually worse than his first time.


That's not surprising, the shot suppresses the body's natural immune system.


----------



## Beaver101

COVID-19 hospitalizations in Ontario rose nearly 11 per cent over the last week, positivity rates also up



> By Chris Fox, Thursday September 29, 2022:
> 
> _*The number of COVID-19 positive patients being treated in Ontario hospitals has risen by nearly 11 per cent week-over week amid signs that viral activity levels are beginning to pick up.*
> 
> The latest data from the Ministry of Health suggests that there are now 1,265 people in Ontario hospitals testing positive for COVID-19, up from 1,141 at this time last week. The number of those patients in intensive care also rose week-over-week, going from 129 to 133.
> 
> It is the highest number of COVID-19 positive patients being treated at Ontario hospitals at any one point since Aug. 26._
> 
> ...
> 
> _“I wouldn’t be surprised if we are starting to see a rise in cases. I mean it's hard to know because we just don't have that same degree of community level testing and you're really reading the tea leaves with hospitalization data, percentage of tests that are positive and wastewater signal* but if you look over in European settings they are seeing an uptick in cases and hospitalizations,” *infectious disease specialist Dr. Isaac Bogoch told CP24 earlier on Thursday. “We chatted about this for months and months and months (a fall wave). We knew this was going to happen.”_


_ ..._ so here we go again ... for Ontarians. 

So why are Ontarians wasting their tax dollars keeping a muted and invisible Chief Medical Officer on its payroll? 

And in the meantime, I read some 1.7M/2M Ontarians are without a family doctor ... the math is really skewed here. Where's Ford?


----------



## james4beach

My nextdoor neighbour apparently caught Covid three times so far. He isn't the only one of course.

Here are some new articles, again emphasizing why one should try to not catch Covid repeatedly. The reason I'm posting this stuff is to try to spread awareness that Covid still poses a danger, so you really should wear a mask in public and avoid crowded gatherings.


Cardiac inflammation after mild COVID-19 in previously healthy people. A new study of people with no existing heart disease found that quite a few people had some lasting cardiac symptoms for many months after even mild infections.

Unlike flu, COVID-19 attacks DNA in the heart: new research. A new study published in Immunology looked at the heart tissues of people who died of Covid. They found DNA damage that was unique to COVID, which does not occur with influenza. Although it was a small study, this shows that Covid may present unique dangers that are very different than influenza. A good reason to take special precautions.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Be prepared for the Tom Cruise wannabee to tell you he's immortal. Well, that's not without a sliver of truth if you believe in movies as a parallel world for the real life in this world.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Be prepared for the Tom Cruise wannabee to tell you he's immortal. Well, that's not without a sliver of truth if you believe in movies as a parallel world for the real life in this world.


I don't mind people posting whatever they want, but I'm sharing information I'm finding. These studies may be of interest to anyone who wants to protect their body and live a long and healthy life.

BC's Public Health dept gave a press conference yesterday where they reminded people to wear masks and be cautious, since Covid is expected to increase.


----------



## james4beach

Just watched the full BC Public Health press conference. They are anticipating a very significant load on the hospitals in the winter, a combination of Covid + influenza cases. Enough that they are already, today, planning to shuffle beds and move patients around. They will struggle to find enough healthcare workers.


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> Mild for some… not so mild for others.
> 
> You pays your money and takes your chances.


just like the flu.


----------



## sags

Here comes the BA.5 subvariant....

_Alberta's COVID-19 hospitalizations are spiking and experts say the big question now is how high the fall surge will go.
The number of people hospitalized with the virus jumped from 843 last week to 980 this week — an increase of 137 people in one week.

*In intensive care, the number of patients with COVID-19 has nearly doubled in the last three weeks. *_





__





Loading…






www.cbc.ca


----------



## sags

BA.5 is an evil wind that blows no good to anyone.

Set the main sail and batten down the hatches, the battle is on !


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> BA.5 is an evil wind that blows no good to anyone.
> 
> Set the main sail and batten down the hatches, the battle is on !


 ... isn't BA.5 a sub-cousin of friendly Omicron? As much as I hate to say this, I think less than a handful of members on this forum is paying attention to you. Even Ontario's CMO has returned to bed to sleep.


----------



## zinfit

before anyone gets real excited about covid hospitalizations the number of people at the peak with the 2020 and 2021 variants was about 400 people in ICU. The number today in ICU is 39. Yes B5 is very infectious and presents a risk to certain groups. Elderly people with other serious health conditions are at risk. They would also be a risk with the flu.


----------



## sags

People are still dying from Covid, but the biggest threat is the virus is circulating which gives it the time and resources to mutate again and again.

We are counting on luck now.


----------



## james4beach

zinfit said:


> just like the flu.


zinfit take a look at some of these studies I have posted. Covid appears to do weirder things to the body (specifically the heart & organs) than influenza.

I agree it's inevitable that we'll all catch it, and I have caught it now, but it's good to be cautious. I think the virus is more dangerous than the flu.

I have now recovered from Covid. Symptoms lasted a total of 16 days, and September was a total loss for me. I also missed one critical meeting and had to cancel a vacation.

16 days isn't a light illness. I was 3x vaccinated and in perfect health just before catching it (in fact I had just done a 20 km hike up a mountain a few days earlier).


----------



## londoncalling

Sorry to hear that your case was that rough and that there were financial impacts as well for you. I spoke with someone last week who was out for 2 weeks as well and had jsut gotten back to work. Anecdotally I have seen an increase in spread since the summer months which is to be expected. I do have some concern regarding an upcoming vacation in November. Will be masking during flights and may do so for ubers and public transit use. However, went to a concert a couple weeks ago and didn't see more than twenty maskers in a third full 2000 seat venue.


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> People are still dying from Covid, but the biggest threat is the virus is circulating which gives it the time and resources to mutate again and again.
> 
> We are counting on luck now.


you sound like the leader of the Chinese communist party.


londoncalling said:


> Sorry to hear that your case was that rough and that there were financial impacts as well for you. I spoke with someone last week who was out for 2 weeks as well and had jsut gotten back to work. Anecdotally I have seen an increase in spread since the summer months which is to be expected. I do have some concern regarding an upcoming vacation in November. Will be masking during flights and may do so for ubers and public transit use. However, went to a concert a couple weeks ago and didn't see more than twenty maskers in a third full 2000 seat venue.


will be getting my booster in the US . It is specific to B4 and B5. The approved Canadian booster will orobably be useless as it is designed for B1. B1 omicron has left the station a long time ago.


----------



## Beaver101

zinfit said:


> you sound like the leader of the Chinese communist party.


 ...  ... I'm surprised zinfit didn't accuse sags of being infected with the Wuhan virus over at the GM plant.



> will be getting my booster in the US . It is specific to B4 and B5. The approved Canadian booster will orobably be useless as it is designed for B1. B1 omicron has left the station a long time ago.


 ... you do realize a great majority of Canadians (particularly the poor ones) don't snowbird down south, thus, don't have direct access to the vaccine producers. Btw, don't forget to take the annual flu-shot down in Texas as I heard it has already been available since August. Meanwhile we the true north and free (excluding the FreeDumbers of course) will have to wait until the end of October to get it.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> zinfit take a look at some of these studies I have posted. Covid appears to do weirder things to the body (specifically the heart & organs) than influenza.


Heart problems are a common and well known side effect of the shot.



james4beach said:


> I agree it's inevitable that we'll all catch it, and I have caught it now, but it's good to be cautious. I think the virus is more dangerous than the flu.
> 
> I have now recovered from Covid. Symptoms lasted a total of 16 days, and September was a total loss for me. I also missed one critical meeting and had to cancel a vacation.
> 
> 16 days isn't a light illness. I was 3x vaccinated and in perfect health just before catching it (in fact I had just done a 20 km hike up a mountain a few days earlier).


How do you know the shot didn't cause your illness?


----------



## sags

After a short respite from lockdowns, a resident brought the Covid back into the retirement home and spread it around.

They are back on lockdown and the wife had been exposed and took a test.

She has a sore throat and a cough , which she said is her sinuses, but I don’t know.

She will find out if they call her in the morning and tell her not to come in.

It just keeps going round and round and when it stops nobody knows.


----------



## sags

The wife's retirement home called and she tested positive for covid, so they told her not to come to work.

I tested negative this morning with a rapid test, but it will be impossible to avoid exposure so I expect to get it.

The wife works in the housekeeping department but was exposed when she helped out in the dining room where they are short staffed.

That means.......everyone was exposed to it and more residents and workers will get infected.

They are really going to be short handed now. The wife was working almost every day in different departments to fill in for vacancies and sickness.

In August she only had 3 days off all month. In September it was about the same. She is supposed to be part time.......lol.

Crazy times we live in.


----------



## sags

_A new preprint lab study__ from Sweden, which has not been peer reviewed, found the Omicron subvariant BA.2.75.2 had "profound antibody escape" against immunity from prior infection, suggesting it may "effectively evade" immunity from antibodies in the population.
BA.2.75.2 and BQ.1.1 were also found to be "the most antibody-evasive" strains tested, "far exceeding BA.5" in a new preprint lab study from China that has not been peer reviewed — which looked specifically at the protection from the Sinovac vaccine._



https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/omicron-subvariants-immune-escape-bivalent-vaccines-1.6601218


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> The wife's retirement home called and she tested positive for covid, so they told her not to come to work.
> 
> I tested negative this morning with a rapid test, but it will be impossible to avoid exposure so I expect to get it.
> 
> The wife works in the housekeeping department but was exposed when she helped out in the dining room where they are short staffed.
> 
> *That means.......everyone was exposed to it and more residents and workers will get infected.*
> 
> They are really going to be short handed now. The wife was working almost every day in different departments to fill in for vacancies and sickness.
> 
> In August she only had 3 days off all month. In September it was about the same. She is supposed to be part time.......lol.
> 
> *Crazy times we live in.*


 ... maybe management will roll up their sleeves and get their fingers dirty for once if they want the retirement home to be kept "operating" aka them being paid. 

Now that's what I call "crazy times we live in" o/w it's business as usual aka status quo.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> _A new preprint lab study__ from Sweden, which has not been peer reviewed, found the Omicron subvariant BA.2.75.2 had "profound antibody escape" against immunity from prior infection, suggesting it may "effectively evade" immunity from antibodies in the population.
> BA.2.75.2 and BQ.1.1 were also found to be "the most antibody-evasive" strains tested, "far exceeding BA.5" in a new preprint lab study from China that has not been peer reviewed — which looked specifically at the protection from the Sinovac vaccine._
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/omicron-subvariants-immune-escape-bivalent-vaccines-1.6601218


 ... I haven't read the link yet but "evading" the anti-body is the first step. The next step is changing its potency ... like back to a Delta's version. And humans are really fvcked.


----------



## Zipper

Sags, if I ever called my dear wife "the wife" I would be put in cold storage for awhile.


----------



## damian13ster

Investigation into spikes in newborn baby deaths in Scotland


It follows higher than expected neonatal deaths in September 2021 and March this year.



www.bbc.com


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> The wife's retirement home called and she tested positive for covid, so they told her not to come to work.
> 
> I tested negative this morning with a rapid test, but it will be impossible to avoid exposure so I expect to get it.


Sorry to hear about this sags. Since you are negative so far, I suggest doing a rapid test each day (swirl 10 times in each nostril etc) and look at the test result under a very bright light so that you can see faint lines. Even a very faint "T" line = positive.

Even though it's in your house, I think the *amount of virus exposure* still makes a difference. So I think both you and your wife should wear the basic surgical masks, as it will reduce the amount of virus, and could keep the sickness milder, maybe avoid getting sick.

Based on my experience: in the early days, sleep as much as possible ... sleep, nap, whatever you can. Maybe you won't even get sick. In my case when I first had very mild symptoms, I think I made a mistake of pushing myself a bit too hard and failing to rest.


----------



## sags

My wife seems to have a mild case of covid.......so far.

She had a sore throat and some coughing, and slept a lot......but says she is already feeling better.

The infection for many seems to be secondary to the problems it is creating (or perhaps exposing is a better description) in the healthcare system..


----------



## TomB16

Best wishes to your wife, sags.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> My wife seems to have a mild case of covid.......so far.
> 
> She had a sore throat and some coughing, and slept a lot......but says she is already feeling better.
> 
> The infection for many seems to be secondary to the problems it is creating (or perhaps exposing is a better description) in the healthcare system..


 ... I think she should take a couple of more days to be "absolutely" sure she's better ... to return to work. 

So is management cleaning the toilets there in the meantime? Wait, they're WFH ...


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> She had a sore throat and some coughing, and slept a lot......but says she is already feeling better.


Best wishes, and glad to hear she's feeling better. But remember that a person can be infectious for a few days after testing positive.

She should also take it easy anyway. Even mild cases can do weird things to the body.


----------



## londoncalling

sags said:


> My wife seems to have a mild case of covid.......so far.
> 
> She had a sore throat and some coughing, and slept a lot......but says she is already feeling better.
> 
> The infection for many seems to be secondary to the problems it is creating (or perhaps exposing is a better description) in the healthcare system..


Glad to hear it is not a sever case and best wishes for a speedy and full recovery. Be curious to know how long until she sees a negative result as well as if you manage to test negative/remain symptom free.


----------



## sags

Thanks to everyone for their well wishes.

My wife gets contacted by the local public health unit every day.

They say she needs to wait another couple of days and then test negative before going out or returning to work.

She is feeling fine, but her throat is still a little raspy. I am still testing negative.

She stays in her bedroom with an ensuite, so we have little direct contact.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> She is feeling fine, but her throat is still a little raspy. I am still testing negative.


Glad to hear she's feeling fine. Did she end up with a fever and chills?

It's amazing how different the sickness is for different people. Some people barely notice they are sick. Others are out of commission for weeks, maybe even over a month.

And some people don't even get any symptoms at all.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Glad to hear she's feeling fine. Did she end up with a fever and chills?
> 
> It's amazing how different the sickness is for different people. *Some people barely notice they are sick.* Others are out of commission for weeks, maybe even over a month.
> 
> And some people don't even get any symptoms at all.


 ... that's because they got robust immune systems (either via previous infections or just great DNA) and these are the people you have to be careful with. And if you say "how do you know who is a stealth carrier"? You just don't know, hence that's why you have to be EXTRA careful, like wearing a mask, etc. 

And before those people gets "offended" aka whimpy, in short I say "get over yourself and enjoy your freebie".


----------



## Beaver101

Why scientists are keeping an eye on two new Omicron subvariants and what they could mean for Ontario

Where's the Moore-head?


----------



## TomB16

UK stats (Zoe Data) show that cold like symptoms are three times more likely to be a rhinovirus than COVID.


----------



## sags

My wife tested negative and is scheduled to go back to work in a couple of days. 

They want another negative test tomorrow and she will be tested again when she goes in to work.


----------



## sags

The new variants are descendant from the BA 5 subvariant and are highly infectious because they escape immunity by prior infection or vaccine.

The variants are spreading in India and the UK.......so they are watching to see how sick people get.

They note that the symptoms of infection have changed from a fever and loss of smell or taste to a cough and lung congestion.

The post infection treatments are ineffective against these new variants, because of the mutations.

My wife is going to get her 4th shot, but I am wondering if it is worth it considering it will be useless against a new variant.

Scientists say letting the virus continually spread is a guarantee of incubation of new variants.

Governments know the risk, but don't want to argue with people anymore.

They have given up and will only intervene if the situation becomes bad enough that people will comply to stringent measures.

Hopefully, the new variants will produce little or weak symptoms and no long term effects.


----------



## james4beach

sags did you ever test positive?



sags said:


> My wife is going to get her 4th shot, but I am wondering if it is worth it considering it will be useless against a new variant.


There's no point to her getting another booster for at least 6 months. She just had an active infection and will have plenty of antibodies. Since I just had covid myself, I will be waiting 6 to 12 months before I get any more shots... probably more like 12 months.

I don't think it's a great idea to get these boosters too frequently. Each vaccination causes inflammation throughout the body and you don't want that to happen too often IMO. Anyway wait at least 6 months after the infection.



sags said:


> Scientists say letting the virus continually spread is a guarantee of incubation of new variants.


Yeah constant, high prevalence is very dangerous for a number of reasons. This is why I wish our Public Health authorities emphasized that people should still wear masks and try to avoid spreading it. They need to least tell the public that they *should try* to not catch this.


----------



## james4beach

The UK is seeing a surge in Covid cases *and hospitalizations*. You really think this won't happen in Canada?


----------



## TomB16

So, we shouldn't let covid spread?

Tell us how to stop it.

Of course, it will happen in Canada. Tell us how to stop it and you will be a hero for saving the world.

Maybe we should try shutting down the economy again? You never know... It might work, this time.

Maybe we should all hold up in our basements with the lights off and the heat turned down?


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> The UK is seeing a surge in Covid cases *and hospitalizations*. You really think this won't happen in Canada?


This may be semantics but it is a tiny up tick. It is not a surge in hospitalizations. Ons data is very clear on this.


----------



## TomB16

This just in... Data shows that people should avoid getting cancer. People with cancer are statistically much more likely to die than people who do not have it.


----------



## sags

At the very least, we could prepare for a surge in cases.


----------



## james4beach

BC directly spelled out in their latest Public Health update that they expect the hospitals to have capacity problems during the winter months, based on their projections for flu & covid cases.

The writing is on the wall. Just don't be surprised when it happens: this is the flip side of the game of pretend our society has decided on.


----------



## kcowan

I agree that it is once again time to be cautious and wear a mask in enclosed areas. I find it OK for the insurance it provides. We were maskless in Europe for a month but these new variants seem to be like a startup of Covid all over again! They appear to be equally deadly.

We go to Mexico for the winter in November so we will once again have the option of outdoor dining all winter. It has worked for 2 seasons. Wish us continued luck!


----------



## sags

What does China know that pushes their normal calm, determined, long term thinking into a total panic where they are willing to destroy their own economy, and risk widespread civil unrest in an effort to totally eradicate the virus in their country ?

Maybe they know what the virus will eventually mutate into because they created it ?









China’s Covid Cases Hit One-Month High as Holiday Spots Flare


China’s Covid-19 tally climbed to the highest in about a month, driven by people traveling during the week-long National Day holiday and sparking a fresh round of lockdowns aimed at controlling the outbreaks ahead of the Party Congress.




www.bloomberg.com


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Maybe they know what the virus will eventually mutate into because they created it ?


My worry is that they might know more about the long term effects. There have been some studies which showed earlier variants were quite harmful (in some % of people) to the heart and other organs. e.g. higher rates of heart attacks and strokes in people who've caught it. More harmful than the flu.

But everyone in western countries seems to be assuming that omicron won't cause that kind of lasting harm. I think that's a premature assumption... omicron has only been mass-infecting people for the last 8 months so we can't yet know the impacts. And business interests have pushed western politicians into relaxing all restrictions.

I'm not convinced it's so harmless. Maybe the Chinese aren't controlled by business interests like we are. They might have a clearer head about the real medical consequences.


----------



## james4beach

kcowan said:


> We go to Mexico for the winter in November so we will once again have the option of outdoor dining all winter. It has worked for 2 seasons. Wish us continued luck!


That sounds great, have a good trip.

I'm thinking of heading to the Caribbean for at least a couple weeks. Maybe Mexico would be a good idea. As a solo traveller, what's the safest tourist destination in Mexico?


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> BC directly spelled out in their latest Public Health update that they expect the hospitals to have capacity problems during the winter months, based on their projections for flu & covid cases.


How much spare capacity do they have right now?

It looks to me like BC healthcare is currently operating at capacity. They are talking about discharging between 500~1800 patients to free up room for COVID patients but they are also planning on 1200 influenza patients. It looks like BC has about 11,500 beds so they are looking to discharge between 5~10% of patients.

According to this article, they cite a need for 1200 influenza beds and an unspecified number of COVID beds. I'm not sure how that's going to work. It sounds like it will continue to be overflow conditions, just as it is now, as a best case. Despite the variety of needs for these beds, including influenza, I expect this thread and all news agencies to cite COVID as the specific and only cause of a bed shortage.









B.C. could move 1,800 patients out of hospital to free up beds for COVID, flu | Globalnews.ca


B.C. has projected that COVID-19 hospitalizations could more than double in the coming months, and that B.C. could also see as many as 1,200 simultaneous flu hospitalizations.




globalnews.ca





A few of you folks have lost your freaking minds.

There are 197 countries, 1 of which is trying *unsuccessfully* to stop covid, so you erect a conspiracy theory that suggests the 1 country is particularly clever and the rest are dumb as a box of rocks? That might be true but the odds are very small. To be fair, China has slowed the spread of COVID but they have not stopped it. What they have done is slow it down. That ought to give it more time to mutate. Nice job.

COVID is a problem. COVID is going to be a bigger problem this fall. The sky will not fall. The amount of severe illness and deaths will be far lower than previous COVID waves. It's a shame reality does not fit into the narrative you folks are trying to craft.

At this point, however, deaths and hospitalizations are way, way off peak numbers. Things look to be generally improving and the fall/winter peak that was predicted looks to be mild.

Isn't it time to start being irrational about something else?


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> A few of you folks have lost your freaking minds.


I think anyone who isn't concerned about potential heart / stroke / organ damage complications of covid has lost their freaking minds. Preliminary studies have shown plenty of reasons to be concerned about covid's effects, even in seemingly mild infections.

So why don't people care? I see three possibilities,

(a) some people really don't care about the potential heart and organ damage
(b) some people assume that omicron / BA2 / BA4 / BA5 doesn't do this bad stuff... that's a leap of faith
(c) others are ignorant of the studies that show the harm, heart damage, etc

You could be gambling with your life. I prefer to wait another 6 to 12 months until more is known. Worst case scenario, I've *slightly* inconvenienced myself for a few months. Big deal.

Which seems like a better idea to you? Suffer some mild inconvenience and then find out it was for nothing, because omicron is harmless.

Or stop being cautious, catch covid repeatedly, then find out later you've increased your risk of heart and organ problems... all because you couldn't wait a few months.


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> So why don't people care?


Yet you are recklessly planning to fly to the Caribbean and Mexico?

ltr


----------



## Beaver101

like_to_retire said:


> Yet you are recklessly planning to fly to the Caribbean and Mexico?
> 
> ltr


 ... now, that's a reckless accusation here.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> What does China know that pushes their normal calm, determined, long term thinking into a total panic where they are willing to destroy their own economy, and risk widespread civil unrest in an effort to totally eradicate the virus in their country ?
> 
> Maybe they know what the virus will eventually mutate into because they created it ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China’s Covid Cases Hit One-Month High as Holiday Spots Flare
> 
> 
> China’s Covid-19 tally climbed to the highest in about a month, driven by people traveling during the week-long National Day holiday and sparking a fresh round of lockdowns aimed at controlling the outbreaks ahead of the Party Congress.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com


 ... and so now the virus doesn't belong to the Chinese. It's liberally shared by everyone + soon every living organism, including Rover (already), possibly Molly (the cat) and Polly (the parrot) etc. on this planet.

Earth is doomed and I don't think Mars (nor the moon) will be that far behind even we figured out a way to colonize them eventually by bringing our germs and garbage there. 

The only thing that will exist for certainty to the end of time (if there is one) is a black hole.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> How much spare capacity do they have right now?
> 
> It looks to me like BC healthcare is currently operating at capacity. They are talking about discharging between 500~1800 patients to free up room for COVID patients but they are also planning on 1200 influenza patients. It looks like BC has about 11,500 beds so they are looking to discharge between 5~10% of patients.
> 
> According to this article, they cite a need for 1200 influenza beds and an unspecified number of COVID beds. I'm not sure how that's going to work. It sounds like it will continue to be overflow conditions, just as it is now, as a best case. Despite the variety of needs for these beds, including influenza, I expect this thread and all news agencies to cite COVID as the specific and only cause of a bed shortage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B.C. could move 1,800 patients out of hospital to free up beds for COVID, flu | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> B.C. has projected that COVID-19 hospitalizations could more than double in the coming months, and that B.C. could also see as many as 1,200 simultaneous flu hospitalizations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A few of you folks have lost your freaking minds.
> 
> There are 197 countries, 1 of which is trying *unsuccessfully* to stop covid, so you erect a conspiracy theory that suggests the 1 country is particularly clever and the rest are dumb as a box of rocks? That might be true but the odds are very small. To be fair, China has slowed the spread of COVID but they have not stopped it. What they have done is slow it down. That ought to give it more time to mutate. Nice job.
> 
> COVID is a problem. COVID is going to be a bigger problem this fall. The sky will not fall. The amount of severe illness and deaths will be far lower than previous COVID waves. It's a shame reality does not fit into the narrative you folks are trying to craft.
> 
> At this point, however, deaths and hospitalizations are way, way off peak numbers. Things look to be generally improving and the fall/winter peak that was predicted looks to be mild.
> 
> Isn't it time to start being irrational about something else?


 ... at least that country is making an effort (and an extreme if not sacrificial) to slow the spread and in the hope of stopping it. Unlike and yes as dumb as rocks countries, throwing its arms up - giving up. In thy name of "freedumbs", "I can't be inconvenienced", and "you're dying, ain't me so tough!".

At this point, sure there's no stopping it but living with it. And so be it who ends up dead with it. Plus for BC to give up those % of beds for "Covid patients", don't you think that's "absolutely DUMB" considered the belief that it can't be stopped as it's the norm - much like the flu. We don't give up beds for flus -do we? Just go to your local pharmacy and drink Buckley (or the Bentley cough syrup of your choice) or suck on Vicks or Fisherman's lozenges instead of hacking on the transit and waking up the neighbourhood, damn it, says the non-freakers of Covid.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> We don't give up beds for flus -do we?


What do you mean "give up".
Yes they make predictions and pre-allocate a number of beds for flu cases.. just like they try to keep a few beds open for emergencies and everything else.

If there is a mass causualty event, they'll start clearing out rooms even before they know how many people they have.

It's called being prepared.


----------



## Beaver101

> It's called being prepared.


 ... laughable. "Being prepared" here means "waiting for a disaster" to happen first and then it's called "being prepared".



> If there is a mass causualty event, they'll start clearing out rooms even before they know how many people they have.


 ... so how do you know how many rooms to clear out before you know how people they have or in need of those beds? Those beds are cleared out regardless of a mass casualty or not ... it's likely based on a pre-set requirement (aka known as a "mandate") of the Health Ministry. Who will then say "we only got so much resources". Heads or tails? 

As for the event of a "mass casualty", let me put it frankly those beds can be skipped altogether - the casualties can head straight for the morgue. No room for the morgue, how about dump trucks or vans (if the former sounds too harsh)?



MrMatt said:


> What do you mean "give up".
> Yes they make predictions and pre-allocate a number of beds for flu cases.. just like they try to keep a few beds open for emergencies and everything else.


 ... make predictions by whom? Them worn-down docs and nurses? Or the administrators following the "guidelines" of the Health Ministry?


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... now, that's a reckless accusation here.


James mentioned he is thinking of a Caribbean vacation this winter.

I respect James position on being cautious but still engaging physical public life on some (perhaps reduced) level. I'm sure if he goes to the Caribbean, he will wear a mask on the flight, wash his hands, and try to keep a distance from people. That seems reasonable to me and probably would be even outside the COVID context.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Which seems like a better idea to you? Suffer some mild inconvenience and then find out it was for nothing, because omicron is harmless.


I don't read anyone claiming omicron is harmless. That is a straw man argument you are trying to install on other posters.

COVID brings harm to our society. I believe we are all in agreement on this.

Influenza also brings harm to our society. The point is, we have learned to live with influenza. Now we need to learn how to live with COVID-19.




james4beach said:


> Or stop being cautious, catch covid repeatedly, then find out later you've increased your risk of heart and organ problems... all because you couldn't wait a few months.


What is going to happen in a few months? Is COVID going somewhere? Has Phizer found a cure that will stop them earning $25B per quarter on vaccine?

My first case of COVID was at the end of January 2020. That was 32 months or 5% of my life ago. I don't have that many "few months" periods left.


----------



## kcowan

James, I really only know PV so I can say with confidence that single men and women have vacationed here and enjoyed themselves. There are dining groups like Becks Best that encourage single people to join them for meals. There are plenty of shows at night.

There are also various markets that observe safe practices and offer a variety of goods. The prices are high because of the boomerang effect of people travelling again. I have actually held my breath when walking through an outdoor sidewalk cafe. (Unmasked eaters and drinkers)


----------



## ian

PV next month for 10 days. Two months of winter travel planned for Thailand. If that does not pan out it will be Mexico or Costa Rica.

Pre covid we spent five weeks traveling Mexico's Pacific coast from Huatulco-PV. We prefer this to Cancun/Playa/Yukatan. The emergence of covid caused our travel to end in PV.

We very much enjoyed Puerto Escondido and Zi. Always felt safe but we are usually very aware of our surroundings. Traveled by bus on occasion because air always went via Mexico City. Dumpiest airport we have ever been in. Mexican long distance busses were as comfortable as business class air seats.

We never felt unsafe. But...we try not to make ourselves easy targets. So much so that we planned to only spend 2 or 3 days in Acapulco and then changed it to a week.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> James mentioned he is thinking of a Caribbean vacation this winter.
> 
> I respect James position on being cautious but still engaging physical public life on some (perhaps reduced) level. I'm sure if he goes to the Caribbean, he will wear a mask on the flight, wash his hands, and try to keep a distance from people. That seems reasonable to me and probably would be even outside the COVID context.


 ... that's why I described it as a "reckless" accusation and not just a mere accusation. Otherwise J4B is gonna to be mocked as hiding under the bed. The "do" you're damned, the "don't do", you're still damned.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver Bickerton said:


> ... that's why I described it as a "reckless" accusation and not just a mere accusation. Otherwise J4B is gonna to be mocked as hiding under the bed. The "do" you're damned, the "don't do", you're still damned.


I see. Do you find people on this site to be negative, contradicting, and closed minded?


----------



## Money172375

__





Loading…






www.cbc.ca





HC approved Pfizer bivalent that targets current variant.


----------



## james4beach

like_to_retire said:


> Yet you are recklessly planning to fly to the Caribbean and Mexico?


I think travel is reasonably safe, when wearing an N95 equivalent mask. That's not reckless.



TomB16 said:


> I respect James position on being cautious but still engaging physical public life on some (perhaps reduced) level. I'm sure if he goes to the Caribbean, he will wear a mask on the flight, wash his hands, and try to keep a distance from people. That seems reasonable to me and probably would be even outside the COVID context.


I've always been out in public, and have travelled through the whole pandemic. I'm very careful about masks etc.

Plus catching covid doesn't come down to single activities. The risk comes from many different choices over time. Yes it's true that travel has some risk, but it's one of the few risky activities I choose to engage in.

If I was travelling + going to parties + constantly having guests over at my home + going into the office without a mask, that would be a huge amount of risk-taking. But that's not what I do.


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> I think travel is reasonably safe,


Air travel seems to always make the top tier list in risky behaviors. Sitting for five or six hours in cramped quarters with hundreds of others where masks are not required seems like a recipe for catching COVID to me. I only mention it since you were confused why people don't seem to care, and I suggest it's because they always justify what *they* are doing.

ltr


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I see. Do you find people on this site to be negative, contradicting, and closed minded?


 ... why? I see 90% of the population in Toronto to be negative, contradicting, and close minded so what's new? Being all these don't mean I can't see some positives there (for me, not sure about anyone else). Nothing beats being arrogant is on my list. And plenty of people in the world are like that.


----------



## Beaver101

like_to_retire said:


> Air travel seems to always make the top tier list in risky behaviors. Sitting for five or six hours in cramped quarters with hundreds of others where masks are not required seems like a recipe for catching COVID to me. I only mention it since you were confused why people don't seem to care, and I suggest it's because they always justify what *they* are doing.
> 
> ltr


 ... J4B wasn't confused at all as to why people don't care. I don't think anyone sensible (ie. having empathy) would be "confused", only those who justify what they're doing and is "right about it (both the "right" and "wrong" and the "freedom rights" kinds)" are the "confused" ones.


----------



## james4beach

like_to_retire said:


> Air travel seems to always make the top tier list in risky behaviors. Sitting for five or six hours in cramped quarters with hundreds of others where masks are not required seems like a recipe for catching COVID to me. I only mention it since you were confused why people don't seem to care, and I suggest it's because they always justify what *they* are doing.


I think you're missing the point about cumulative / total risk. This is a scale, not a black and white absolute thing.

Yes, air travel involves risk, especially now that the feds have removed the mask requirement (a terrible decision IMO). Going into an office and having meetings involves risk. Going to a big event like a crowded wedding, a big party, Thanksgiving dinner etc all have risks.

My argument is: one should stay aware of these dangers and adjust their risk-taking. @MrMatt seems to jump to these black and white conclusions the same way you do.

Instead, think of it like a budget for risk-taking. Multiple exposures to risk events, over the span of days or weeks.

Here's an example of exactly what I mean. I'm flying out to visit my dad in a few weeks. A friend invited me to a big birthday party the day right after I fly back. *I declined this invitation*, and told them I'm flying back, going through airports and don't feel comfortable going to a crowded party the next day.

^ That kind of behaviour adjustment is being mindful of the covid & flu risks. If I didn't care about the risks, I'd fly around, go see people the next day, then go into the office the following day. But I certainly won't do that.


----------



## james4beach

@like_to_retire and @TomB16

Here's another example of how I'm cautious (and how I hope others can also be careful). I'm not arguing with you, just trying to explain what I mean about being cautious about disease spread. Yes I still take risks, yes I still do everything I want.

Like I said in my last post, I fly around to visit family. When I fly to see my parents, I always keep a mask on (at all times) in the first 2-3 days. I also do daily rapid tests. This is a really small amount of work, but it can protect them in case I've picked up an infection and don't realize it yet. After a couple days, I drop the mask as if I have no symptoms, not testing positive, then there's no real reason.


----------



## Birder

Florida Issues New Mrna COVID-19 Vaccine Guidance

The State Surgeon General now recommends against the COVID-19 mRNA vaccines for males
ages 18-39 years old. 

Individuals and health care providers should also be aware that this analysis found:
• Males over the age of 60 had a 10% increased risk of cardiac-related death within 28 days of
mRNA vaccination.
• Non-mRNA vaccines were not found to have these increased risks among any population 

The Department continues to stand by its Guidance for Pediatric COVID-19 Vaccines issued March
2022, which recommends against use in healthy children and adolescents 5 years old to 17 years old.
This now includes recommendations against COVID-19 vaccination among infants and children under
5 years old, which has since been issued under Emergency Use Authorization 

I guess the science is evolving...


----------



## HappilyRetired

People used to get banned from Twitter and Facebook for saying that the shot caused problems. Even worse, doctors who spoke up risked losing their jobs.

This isn't new, we've known about it for over a year and yet the "experts" tried to silence anyone who dared to speak up. The science didn't evolve, it just got too big to ignore. They lied on purpose, don't ever forget that.

What worries me is how many more people will die over the next few years from heart problems caused by the shot.


----------



## james4beach

Birder said:


> I guess the science is evolving


Don't jump to conclusions. Florida is not a leader in anything.

Florida has a weird history in this pandemic of taking some ideological stances so I'm not entirely sure that particular guidance is based on sound science. We'd have to see if other medical authorities come to the same conclusion, but I wouldn't take Florida's word for it alone. Though they may be right... it's just a bit too early to tell.

Governor DeSantis has politicized the covid stuff and is using this to score points with the right wing / anti vaccine crowd. And Ladapo, the surgeon general who issued this statement, has previously been criticized by doctors in Florida for irresponsible medical statements.

DeSantis appointed Ladapo, who might be a bit of a nut. He was definitely appointed because he shares DeSantis's ideological view. Ladapo was always against masks and vaccines. This appears to be a political posting, so you should be really skeptical of this guy's advice.

It's already known that vaccines cause side effects for the heart. The issue is that a covid infection *is even more harmful* for the heart, causing even greater myocarditis (and cardiac side effects) than the vaccine does. So it becomes a question of net risk and benefit.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Yes, Florida was a leader. Age adjusted, Florida has a lower death rate from Covid than New York. DeSantis was right all along.

The shot causes more heart problems than Covid for most people. That's a known fact that has been covered up.

You can pretend those things are not true. But you're just pretending.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Seems like someone has his eyes or better yet his head closed.

Show me the number of deaths due to the vaccine in "Florida" alone and then I may pay attention to the nutcases coming out from there. I think Florida needs ian's cousin now to keep DeSantis and his cronies busy.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Seems like someone has his eyes or better yet his head closed.
> 
> Show me the number of deaths due to the vaccine in "Florida" alone and then I may pay attention to the nutcases coming out from there. I think Florida needs ian's cousin now to keep DeSantis and his cronies busy.


I read this comment and it just confirms why you were on ignore. You actually want another hurricane to hit Florida just because they presented medical facts that you don't like.

You are a disgusting troll. I have no idea why you haven't been banned yet.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> I read this comment and it just confirms why you were on ignore.


 ... by golly, you need ANOTHER CONFIRMATION to REMIND yourself I'm on your Ignore List. Why's that? Can't make up your mind, kinda of fuzzy? Confused? Or just have a scheming brain with plain EVILNESS implanted.



> You actually want another hurricane to hit Florida ...


 ... how is that I "want" or is that just your EVIL INTERPRETATION, similar to what DeSantis spews. Btw, is he your relative? And like I can control Mother Nature - it's already in the news that another hurricane is going that way and Florida just happen to be in the way. If you were so sympathetic, why don't you say a prayer to Floridians or better yet move the damn state out of the hurricane's way or blow off the hurricane. It may save ALOT of other Caribbean Islands its paths too. I don't see you "crying" for those poor Caribbeans impacted. In fact, Puerto Rico/Haiti are still suffering from the aftermaths of Hurricane from many years ago just as with the other Caribbean islands. Or are you worry that you can't snowbird in Florida after ian? Crock-codiles' tears.



> because they presented medical facts that you don't like.


 ... "medical" "facts" my butts. Only you believe they're "medical", let alone "facts" when it's all politicalized bs being spewed



> You are a disgusting troll. I have no idea why you haven't been banned yet.


 ... talking about yourself now heh? If you want to "ban" me, then go be the Moderator or Administer. Show some skills for once instead of continuously spewing the sh1ts, so full of them. 

If I'm disgusting, then why do you need to "continuously reminding yourself" that I'm your Ignore List aka List to be Ignored (in case you need to be reminded of the "instructions")? Can't stay away from the "disgust" or you just need to troll your dirt? Btw, you're not disgusting, you're just plain EVIL. And no amount of bleach can get that off ya.


----------



## ian

Just remember...

Figures lie. Liars figure.

Stock in trade of most politicians.


----------



## HappilyRetired

ian said:


> Just remember...
> 
> Figures lie. Liars figure.
> 
> Stock in trade of most politicians.


Everyone has always known that politicians lie. But in the last couple years we also found out that medical experts lie too.


----------



## kcowan

HappilyRetired said:


> Everyone has always known that politicians lie. But in the last couple years we also found out that medical experts lie too.


Nearly everyone lies when it is their survival on the line. The rest quit and are not heard from again.


----------



## Gator13

sags said:


> My wife seems to have a mild case of covid.......so far.
> 
> She had a sore throat and some coughing, and slept a lot......but says she is already feeling better.
> 
> The infection for many seems to be secondary to the problems it is creating (or perhaps exposing is a better description) in the healthcare system..


Wishing for an easy recovery.


----------



## james4beach

There's useful info in the recently-released report from the BC COVID-19 Modelling Groups
Here's the report posted a few days ago

Some provinces have trends that they believe will lead to an increase in hospitalizations (a growing wave). This increase is expected in BC, AB, and QC. The most distressing pattern is seen in Alberta.

These researchers believe that infections are mainly growing due to waning immunity in the population. *Antibodies appear to wane within 7 to 11 months.*

Getting a booster shot fixes waning immunity, and if enough people do it, can stop the rising waves. They go into some detail about the bivalent booster used in Canada which targets the original Wuhan virus + Omicron BA.1. I found a couple important notes here, things I did not know before.

*(1) ... both the original vaccine and the bivalent one successfully boost antibodies that recognize both BA.1 and BA.5. The bivalent booster does a slightly better job. Interestingly, although this vaccine targeted BA.1, the increase / enhancement does extend to BA.5 antibodies.*

and

*(2) ... a study that looked at the effectiveness of boosting, saw the increase was apparent 29 days after boosting. That's also the time interval reported in this report. So beware: if you get boosted, it can take a MONTH for antibody levels to ramp up and protect you from omicron.*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In my case, I got a booster shot, but then got infected with covid about 2.5 weeks later. I probably didn't get the full benefit of the shot at that point. Also note when you last got a booster, or an infection. If it was more than 9 months ago, you should probably get a booster shot, or at 6 months if you really want to play it safe.

And also remember that plenty of boosted people do get sick. The boosters reduce the severity (and maybe duration) of sickness, but people still DO get sick. Although covid felt pretty rough for me (like a bad flu), after talking to many friends around the same age, I actually think I had a relatively mild case as mine seems to have resolved reasonably quickly. That's probably still the benefit of the vaccines and booster.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Don't jump to conclusions. Florida is not a leader in anything.
> 
> Florida has a weird history in this pandemic of taking some ideological stances so I'm not entirely sure that particular guidance is based on sound science. We'd have to see if other medical authorities come to the same conclusion, but I wouldn't take Florida's word for it alone. Though they may be right... it's just a bit too early to tell.
> 
> Governor DeSantis has politicized the covid stuff and is using this to score points with the right wing / anti vaccine crowd. And Ladapo, the surgeon general who issued this statement, has previously been criticized by doctors in Florida for irresponsible medical statements.
> 
> DeSantis appointed Ladapo, who might be a bit of a nut. He was definitely appointed because he shares DeSantis's ideological view. Ladapo was always against masks and vaccines. This appears to be a political posting, so you should be really skeptical of this guy's advice.
> 
> It's already known that vaccines cause side effects for the heart. The issue is that a covid infection *is even more harmful* for the heart, causing even greater myocarditis (and cardiac side effects) than the vaccine does. So it becomes a question of net risk and benefit.


You have no medical background but claim to know more than a surgeon general? And you can also read the minds of people you've never met?


----------



## TomB16

Birder said:


> Florida Issues New Mrna COVID-19 Vaccine Guidance


I'm a bit surprised by this guidance for a variety of reasons, even coming from Florida where they have more nuts than a pecan pie.

Also, I wish to point out there are several studies which indicate mRNA vaccines cause more problems than non mRNA vaccines; this applies specifically to a couple of risk groups. mRNA is more effective than traditional, deactivated virus, vaccines at the single and double dose level but Sinovac is more effective than both Phizer and Moderna at the three dose level.

Now that we are juicing everyone with three or more doses, it seems like 18-39 yo males would be better advised to take a deactivated virus vaccine, instead of no vaccine at all. I suspect political power is the only reason Sinovac is not recommended in the US for any cohort.


----------



## Spudd

Here's a post discussing the Florida study and its limitations. 








A critical review of Florida’s new vaccine analysis


Florida just announced the results of an analysis that they performed, claiming the results show “an increased risk of cardiac-related death among men 18-39” for the mRNA vaccines, and …




youcanknowthings.com


----------



## HappilyRetired

Not very much experience in total and absolutely none regarding vaccines:

"Dr. Panthagani is a physician-scientist and science communicator. She ventured into the world of science communication as a senior PhD student in March 2020"

A critical review of Florida’s new vaccine analysis – You Can Know Things


----------



## james4beach

Spudd said:


> Here's a post discussing the Florida study and its limitations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A critical review of Florida’s new vaccine analysis
> 
> 
> Florida just announced the results of an analysis that they performed, claiming the results show “an increased risk of cardiac-related death among men 18-39” for the mRNA vaccines, and …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> youcanknowthings.com


Florida's monitoring processes have also been repeatedly questioned. It's interesting that they're giving this guidance, but Florida's recommendations just aren't reliable. They spent most of the pandemic trying to pretend covid didn't exist / didn't pose a threat.

I know this sounds mean but when you're dealing with Florida you're basically dealing with a third-world country. Listen to more reliable sources.


----------



## m3s

People from Florida told me their life didn't change at all during the pandemic.

People are moving to Florida from authoritarian states and Canada in record numbers

I noticed everyone didn't die in 3rd world countries even though they don't have vaccines or stimulus checks and lockdowns

Shouldn't there be catastrophic crisis in those countries who didn't lock down?

Isn't Florida full of vulnerable elderly retirees? How did they survive?


----------



## james4beach

m3s said:


> Isn't Florida full of vulnerable elderly retirees? How did they survive?


They didn't survive, they got massacred. Florida has one of the highest per capita death rates through the pandemic as shown here.

The only higher population state with more per capita deaths was Michigan and that's despite the east coast being ground zero for the worst waves. Florida had a very poor performance through the pandemic.

So I would suggest that people take Florida's vaccine guidance with a HUGE grain of salt. See what other jurisdictions and European countries say. Remember that the Europeans have been pretty good at looking out for the safety of their citizens, and they were the first to stop the use of AZ when it appeared to be dangerous.


----------



## sags

Did Florida report non citizen deaths or people who got sick and went back to their home states and died there ?

There was a big exodus from Florida during the worst of Covid.


----------



## sags

Nevertheless past waves weren’t catastrophic “last person standing” types of infections.

I worry about a future deadly mutation and a scenario where people reject any restrictions or advice from health authorities or government.

I find the CPC “no mandates ever “ as a dumb policy statement when nobody knows if or when something really bad heads our way.

Some people didn’t believe the Hurricane Ian warnings and called 911 for someone to come save them.

Some didn’t survive.

Is it worse to overreact for safety reasons or not to react at all ?


----------



## sags

I remember bodies on freezer trucks and mass graves during Covid.

I remember so many funeral pyres in India that they ran out of firewood.

A lot of people died from Covid and many were never reported.


----------



## m3s

sags said:


> Is it worse to overreact for safety reasons or not to react at all ?


Depends greatly if you are young and healthy or old and unhealthy

Many lessons learned are saying in hindsight it would make more sense to protect the vulnerable as it was impossible to control everyone anyways. So for the vast majority who were not vulnerable the smart ones are now moving to Florida and other countries with freedom

Ideally focusing the protection on the vulnerable would allow the healthy to keep the economy rolling and maybe lose less of the vulnerable. Instead the nursing homes were neglected and the healthy were needlessly locked down, even though the spread was impossible to contain

Do you want to live in China where they lock down entire blocks and kill all the pets if there is 1 infection?


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Florida's monitoring processes have also been repeatedly questioned. It's interesting that they're giving this guidance, but Florida's recommendations just aren't reliable. They spent most of the pandemic trying to pretend covid didn't exist / didn't pose a threat.
> 
> I know this sounds mean but when you're dealing with Florida you're basically dealing with a third-world country. Listen to more reliable sources.


James, you are the last person who should be advising who isn't reliable. Age adjusted Florida's fatality rate was better than that of many states including many that were fully locked down. I stated this before but you ignored it. 

It appears that it's your sources that are unreliable. Florida did better than 30 other states, hardly 3rd world status:

States Ranked by Age-Adjusted COVID Deaths (bioinformaticscro.com)


----------



## m3s

If one believed Covid was as dangerous as my state would have everyone believe, then Florida should have been an absolute apocalypse of death

Meanwhile people in Florida carried on as if everything was normal and the results were basically the same as States that locked down as if everyone was going to die

Meanwhile 3rd world countries have carried on business as usual without even vaccines. How did the Taliban survive? Must be those dust scarves?


----------



## andrewf

m3s said:


> People from Florida told me their life didn't change at all during the pandemic.
> 
> People are moving to Florida from authoritarian states and Canada in record numbers
> 
> I noticed everyone didn't die in 3rd world countries even though they don't have vaccines or stimulus checks and lockdowns
> 
> Shouldn't there be catastrophic crisis in those countries who didn't lock down?
> 
> Isn't Florida full of vulnerable elderly retirees? How did they survive?


Didn't India run out of oxygen? If you had loved ones that needed ventilation, you had to go procure oxygen or watch them suffocate.


----------



## HappilyRetired

andrewf said:


> Didn't India run out of oxygen? If you had loved ones that needed ventilation, you had to go procure oxygen or watch them suffocate.


No comment on the age adjusted stats that showed I was right? No more 3rd world country claims?

Come on James...man up and admit that you were wrong again.


----------



## andrewf

HappilyRetired said:


> Come on James.


Off your meds again?


----------



## HappilyRetired

andrewf said:


> Off your meds again?


It's easy to mix the two of you up, you both make unsubstantiated claims and can't back them up.


----------



## TomB16

Hey mods... what is with deleting my on topic post for being off topic?

Ignorance is not attractive.

long COVID is a thing.

XBB is a Omicron BA.5 variant.

Asking about going long on XBB is literally the most legitimate post in several pages.

Please make an attempt to keep up.


----------



## cainvest

TomB16 said:


> Hey mods... what is with deleting my on topic post for being off topic?
> 
> Asking about going long on XBB is literally the most legitimate post in several pages.
> 
> Please make an attempt to keep up.


Geez, how about a little less attitude ... it was an honest mistake.

Your original post was ..


TomB16 said:


> Any opinions on going long on XBB?


You can't see how "on a financial fourm" going long on XBB (Canadian Universe Bond Index) could be taken a different way?


----------



## TomB16

cainvest said:


> Geez, how about a little less attitude ... it was an honest mistake.


I respect honest mistakes. 




cainvest said:


> You can't see how "on a financial fourm" going long on XBB (Canadian Universe Bond Index) could be taken a different way?


Perhaps you should have issued an infraction for being cute as hell? It was my best post since the "Beaver Bickerton" exchange.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Hey, don't drag me into the medley between the guy off meds, the guy on meds and the guy who don't need meds.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> XBB is a Omicron BA.5 variant.


Oh wow I didn't know that. That's pretty awesome.


----------



## james4beach

UK and France both have rising covid numbers. Remember the pattern from the last few years: Europe is the leading indicator.

The wave will happen in Canada & US too. Several provinces already appear to be in an up-swing and this fall/winter wave hasn't even started yet. The last wave just keeps going!

If it's been more than 9 months since either your last booster or a natural infection, you should probably get a booster now. The BC Modelling Group believes that immunity wanes in about 7 to 11 months. Also remember that it can take about a month for your antibody levels to fully rise after the booster. At the same time though I don't think it's a great idea to get boosters too frequently (since each one causes inflammation in the body). You'd want to weigh your personal risk, age, etc.


----------



## TomB16

XBB is said to have tremendous immune escape.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> XBB is said to have tremendous immune escape.


That's unfortunate. Well so did omicron, but vaccines still appear to protect against some of the more severe outcomes. For example even the original mRNA shots are still showing partial effectiveness against BA5, pretty amazing. Just because a variant has immune escape doesn't mean one should forego the booster. Also remember that several subvariants circulate at the same time.

This new variant is really going to screw up the forum's search function for iShares XBB


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> This new variant is really going to screw up the forum's search function for iShares XBB


I expect both to have a similarly low yield.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> UK and France both have rising covid numbers. Remember the pattern from the last few years: Europe is the leading indicator.
> 
> The wave will happen in Canada & US too. Several provinces already appear to be in an up-swing and this fall/winter wave hasn't even started yet. The last wave just keeps going!
> 
> If it's been more than 9 months since either your last booster or a natural infection, you should probably get a booster now. The BC Modelling Group believes that immunity wanes in about 7 to 11 months. Also remember that it can take about a month for your antibody levels to fully rise after the booster. At the same time though I don't think it's a great idea to get boosters too frequently (since each one causes inflammation in the body). You'd want to weigh your personal risk, age, etc.


No boosters for us, we still don't know how many deaths and severe reactions from the shots are being hidden or recorded as Covid. We don't even know how effective the booster is on new variants because there is no data.

However, you can take as many boosters as you want. Your body your choice.


----------



## james4beach

HappilyRetired said:


> No boosters for us, we still don't know how many deaths and severe reactions from the shots are being hidden or recorded as Covid. We don't even know how effective the booster is on new variants because there is no data.


But keep in mind, deaths from Covid infection are probably severely under-reported. The BC Modelling Group believes so. I can't speak for all the provinces, but in BC, the death is only recorded as a covid death if (a) the patient had a positive test and (b) dies within X days of that.

Some of the disastrous effects from Covid, like heart damage, heart attacks, occur pretty long after. The patient might not even have a positive test on the record. If they die because they're admitted to hospital with cardiac problems, and their heart was damaged from Covid, we wouldn't know and Canada wouldn't record it properly.

We know for certain that cardiac problems result from covid infection (and yes, from the vaccine too).

I don't think our system is covering up deaths from the vaccines, that's silly. But the system probably is blind --- just UNABLE to measure --- deaths from any cardiac problems from either the vaccine or covid infection. Most experts believe the covid infection causes worse heart damage than the vaccine, meaning it's probably safer to get vaccinated.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Actually the deaths from Covid are probably severely under-reported. The BC Modelling Group believes so. I can't speak for all the provinces, but in BC, the death is only recorded as a covid death if (a) the patient had a positive test and (b) dies within X days of that.
> 
> Some of the disastrous effects from Covid, like heart damage, heart attacks, occur pretty long after. The patient might not even have a positive test on the record. If they die because they're admitted to hospital with cardiac problems, and their heart was damaged from Covid, we wouldn't know and Canada wouldn't record the death appropriately. The BC Modelling Group has this concern -- and so do I.


Heart problems are a very well known side effect of the shot. You can say it's from Covid but you have no way of proving that.

Anyway, get a booster every week if you want. It's your body and your heart. I choose not to. I already have a nephew who contracted myocarditis from the shot. He's in university and I worry about his long term health.


----------



## HappilyRetired

The misinformation campaign continues. Now video games magically cause heart problems:


----------



## james4beach

HappilyRetired said:


> Heart problems are a very well known side effect of the shot. You can say it's from Covid but you have no way of proving that.


Dude, there have been studies, and covid infection definitely causes heart damage. They even inspected the hearts of deceased covid patients and found intense tissue damage, a level not even seen with influenza. It is firmly established that covid infection causes heart inflammation, damage and increased rates of heart attacks.

Your concern about the vaccine is valid but I think you're failing to recognize that covid itself causes heart problems. Myocarditis does happen with the vaccine, but it's worse with an actual infection.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Myocarditis does happen with the vaccine, but it's worse with an actual infection.


Do you recall where you found this data?


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> Do you recall where you found this data?


Took me about a minute of googling, and the first reference cites a new study about this.









COVID-19 infection poses higher risk for myocarditis than vaccines


The overall risk of myocarditis was higher immediately after being infected with COVID-19 than in the weeks after vaccination for the coronavirus, new research shows.




www.heart.org













Myocarditis is more common after covid-19 infection than vaccination


A preliminary study suggests that, among those most likely to develop myocarditis, the heart condition is six times more likely to occur after having covid-19 than after getting vaccinated




www.newscientist.com













Association Between COVID-19 and Myocarditis...


Viral infections are a common cause of myocarditis. Some studies have indicated an association between COVID-19 and myocarditis.




www.cdc.gov


----------



## james4beach

Here's a neat document I just discovered, published by the Canadian NACI a few days ago.

I can't study the whole thing right now but I did notice a couple interesting points.

They confirm that the Moderna BA.1 bivalent (what people are now getting) does show antibody responses against BA.4 and BA.5, which is great.

They also point out the reason to care in the first place:
​Even though Omicron and its sublineages have largely been associated with a smaller​proportion of severe disease compared to the previous variants, *there is still uncertainty*​*regarding the disease severity of Omicron BA.4 and BA.5* ... relative to previous Omicron​sublineages. In addition, the surge in SARS-CoV-2 infections caused in part by the​increased transmissibility of Omicron BA.4 and BA.5, has had a substantial impact on​health system capacity.​​


----------



## m3s

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1579946052647780352


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> Dude, there have been studies, and covid infection definitely causes heart damage. They even inspected the hearts of deceased covid patients and found intense tissue damage, a level not even seen with influenza. It is firmly established that covid infection causes heart inflammation, damage and increased rates of heart attacks.
> 
> Your concern about the vaccine is valid but I think you're failing to recognize that covid itself causes heart problems. Myocarditis does happen with the vaccine, but it's worse with an actual infection.


Mr Retired has a strong case of highly motivated reasoning. He starts from a position of 'vaccines are bad mkay' and sifts for data that fits his conclusion.


----------



## andrewf

m3s said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1579946052647780352


She will successfully sail the SS UCP into that iceberg, and go down with the ship.

PP is smart enough to not fight yesterday's war. Danielle Smith not so much. PP dropped the anti-vax messaging as soon as it was clear he had the leadership in the bag and he didn't need to sweat losing the mouth breather vote.


----------



## james4beach

Is there anything unvaccinated people can't do in this country any more? Last time I checked, they can fly on planes and go to restaurants just like everyone else.


----------



## HappilyRetired

andrewf said:


> Mr Retired has a strong case of highly motivated reasoning. He starts from a position of 'vaccines are bad mkay' and sifts for data that fits his conclusion.


Hiding data and the serious side effects makes me skeptical. You, on the other hand believe everything Big Pharma and the government tell you. And all it took was a little bit of media campaigning to get you to fall in line.

I now understand how some people fall under the spell of cults. We are witnessing it in real time.


----------



## HappilyRetired

One of the Pfizer directors said today that the shot was never tested on stopping transmission of the virus.

Why are we just hearing about this today?


----------



## cainvest

HappilyRetired said:


> One of the Pfizer directors said today that the shot was never tested on stopping transmission of the virus.
> 
> Why are we just hearing about this today?


Maybe because that's more or less been a given for all the shots from the start.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> Took me about a minute of googling, and the first reference cites a new study about this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 infection poses higher risk for myocarditis than vaccines
> 
> 
> The overall risk of myocarditis was higher immediately after being infected with COVID-19 than in the weeks after vaccination for the coronavirus, new research shows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.heart.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Myocarditis is more common after covid-19 infection than vaccination
> 
> 
> A preliminary study suggests that, among those most likely to develop myocarditis, the heart condition is six times more likely to occur after having covid-19 than after getting vaccinated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newscientist.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Association Between COVID-19 and Myocarditis...
> 
> 
> Viral infections are a common cause of myocarditis. Some studies have indicated an association between COVID-19 and myocarditis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


It is true except for MRNA vaccines for men under 40. In this scenario shot is much more likely to cause myocarditis than infection.
Source: NHS


----------



## andrewf

HappilyRetired said:


> I now understand how some people fall under the spell of cults.


Are you religious?


----------



## HappilyRetired

andrewf said:


> Are you religious?


Please explain why it was okay for Pfizer to lie to us. Defend your position.


----------



## HappilyRetired

cainvest said:


> Maybe because that's more or less been a given for all the shots from the start.


We were told differently. But if the government knew all along that the shot doesn't prevent spread why did we need vaccine passports?


----------



## cainvest

HappilyRetired said:


> We were told differently. But if the government knew all along that the shot doesn't prevent spread why did we need vaccine passports?


Hasn't this been discussed many, many times already?

IIRC, there was some data showing a limited reduction to spread. IMO, the vaccine passport push was just to get more people vaccinated.


----------



## HappilyRetired

cainvest said:


> Hasn't this been discussed many, many times already?
> 
> IIRC, there was some data showing a limited reduction to spread. IMO, the vaccine passport push was just to get more people vaccinated.


So, we can't discuss it anymore? The CEO said they didn't test at all if it reduced the spread but they had data that showed limited reduction to spreading? What's the truth?

Big Pharma deliberately lied to us and our government used those lies to force people to take the shot. No one will be held accountable and some of you just want to move along as if nothing happened.

What will you do the next time a vaccine passport is required? Will you bend over and take it again?


----------



## cainvest

HappilyRetired said:


> So, we can't discuss it anymore?


What's the point? Everyone knows vaccines do little to stop the spread but potentially decreases your risk of getting very ill or dying.



HappilyRetired said:


> What will you do the next time a vaccine passport is required? Will you bend over and take it again?


That's totally up to you to figure out the risk/reward for yourself.


----------



## HappilyRetired

cainvest said:


> What's the point? Everyone knows vaccines do little to stop the spread but potentially decreases your risk of getting very ill or dying.


My point was very clear. We were deliberately lied to and forced to take a shot that wasn't fully tested. We now find out that in many cases it dos more harm than good. You don't seem to care. If they mandate monthly boosters will you just fall in line again? At what point will you have had enough?



> That's totally up to you to figure out the risk/reward for yourself.


Easy to say, not easy to follow if you were forced to take the shot or lose your job, especially people who had families to support.


----------



## cainvest

HappilyRetired said:


> My point was very clear. We were deliberately lied to and forced to take a shot that wasn't fully tested. We now find out that in many cases it dos more harm than good. You don't seem to care. If they mandate monthly boosters will you just fall in line again? At what point will you have had enough?
> 
> 
> Easy to say, not easy to follow if you were forced to take the shot or lose your job, especially people who had families to support.


Again, up to you to decide to get any shots but it sounds like your mind is already made up not to get any. If you feel the need to protest because of unknown future restrictions, go ahead.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> That's totally up to you to figure out the risk/reward for yourself.


The problem is that the government and media conspired to hide the risk from the public.

That's the problem.

I personally think that during peak COVID the risk of covid was higher. However there are serious problems when the government is using the full force of their power to silence any dissent from their position.


----------



## kcowan

Plus the leader wanted to prime the population for the WEF universal ID.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> IIRC, there was some data showing a limited reduction to spread. IMO, the vaccine passport push was just to get more people vaccinated.


As I recall, vaccines reduce the severity of the illness and generally reduce the amount of time someone is highly infectious. I think this is still the case actually, since vaccinated people have a faster antibody response, so the infection is resolved more quickly. Fewer days of being contagious.

That being said, people can still be contagious quite a while and should wear a mask around other people while recovering. Unfortunately we have people in offices, and on airplanes, who are contagious -- and don't have masks. And people wonder why Covid keeps circulating like crazy.



MrMatt said:


> The problem is that the government and media conspired to hide the risk from the public.


The government is currently hiding (or downplaying) the truth. You are just picking and choosing which "lies" bother you more.

Today the government is downplaying the threat of covid, and not telling people how there may be long-term health consequences of catching covid, and misleading people into thinking it's OK to stop taking precautions. The government is lying to the public by saying it's OK to return to an office, or see friends/family, just 5 days after being sick ... when they surely are still contagious.

So MrMatt you are very selective about what you are outraged about. Why aren't you outraged about the government's current lies? Why aren't you outraged about the government's ridiculous guidelines about returning back to work, even back to hospital work, which are *definitely* driving transmission.

Here's what the government would say if they were honest. This is the true story of where we're at:

Covid is pretty dangerous and can destroy your heart
It's likely more dangerous than the flu, and you can catch it more often than the flu
But because of public dissatisfaction, we can't enforce restrictions any more
Because of business lobbyist pressures, we are unwilling to force people to stay at home sick
Hospitals would collapse without enough workers, so we can't force people to stay home sick
So we are not enforcing quarantine/isolation, and we KNOW this is driving the spread of covid
We know that cases, and deaths, are under-reported


----------



## HappilyRetired

If Alex Jones can be sued $965 million for being wrong about Sandy Hook, how much should the people who knowingly lied about the Pfizer shot preventing the spread of Covid be fined? $500 billion? $1 trillion?


----------



## Beaver101

^ Alex Jones don't have to pay a cent since there isn't one to his name. He can spend the rest of his living telling lies behind bars. 

As for the "lies" from the vaccine producers as per your claim, good luck suing them with the voluntary jab. And you can thank the Dump for speeding up its implementation. Besides, your every move is being recorded at the alien's central headquarters in Mar-A-Lago.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> The government is currently hiding (or downplaying) the truth. You are just picking and choosing which "lies" bother you more.


Uhh, I don't think so.



> Today the government is downplaying the threat of covid, and not telling people how there may be long-term health consequences of catching covid, and misleading people into thinking it's OK to stop taking precautions. The government is lying to the public by saying it's OK to return to an office, or see friends/family, just 5 days after being sick ... when they surely are still contagious.


Sure, and that is also problematic.
But the are they prosecuting and censoring people who say that it is still too dangerous to return to work?



> So MrMatt you are very selective about what you are outraged about. Why aren't you outraged about the government's current lies? Why aren't you outraged about the government's ridiculous guidelines about returning back to work, even back to hospital work, which are *definitely* driving transmission.


What measures are they taking against people who are trying to spread truths that are contrary to the governments official position?



> Here's what the government would say if they were honest. This is the true story of where we're at:
> 
> Covid is pretty dangerous and can destroy your heart
> It's likely more dangerous than the flu, and you can catch it more often than the flu
> But because of public dissatisfaction, we can't enforce restrictions any more
> Because of business lobbyist pressures, we are unwilling to force people to stay at home sick
> Hospitals would collapse without enough workers, so we can't force people to stay home sick
> So we are not enforcing quarantine/isolation, and we KNOW this is driving the spread of covid
> We know that cases, and deaths, are under-reported


Yes, and all those messages are being said.
Nobody is at risk of losing their medical license because they say those things.

Those who suggested the vaccines might have too much risk were pressured and threatened, some even lost their jobs.
Nobody is losing their job for saying any of the things you listed above.

I am outraged at the government using their power to silence the truth. I'm not as outraged at the government doing a crappy job communicating.
They are two different levels of a problem.


It was always a risk trade off, the only outrageous thing is when the government was blocking the truth and legitimate criticism of their policies.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Yes, and all those messages are being said.
> Nobody is at risk of losing their medical license because they say those things.
> 
> Those who suggested the vaccines might have too much risk were pressured and threatened, some even lost their jobs.
> Nobody is losing their job for saying any of the things you listed above.


Ok those are good points


----------



## james4beach

Quebec hospitalizations are on the rise. This seems to fit patterns of earlier waves, where cases first start rising in Europe and eastern Canada (usually ON & QC first).

Quebec urges people to get boosters and Health Minister Dubé also asks people to wear masks where necessary. Not mandatory, but the province is asking people to wear masks.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> As I recall, vaccines reduce the severity of the illness and generally reduce the amount of time someone is highly infectious. I think this is still the case actually, since vaccinated people have a faster antibody response, so the infection is resolved more quickly. Fewer days of being contagious.


Yes that was pretty much the extent for "reduced spread", maybe a few other tiny factors as well.



james4beach said:


> Today the government is downplaying the threat of covid, and not telling people how there may be long-term health consequences of catching covid, and misleading people into thinking it's OK to stop taking precautions.


All the info is right on the gov of Canada website. Risks, preventions, long covid, etc ... free for all to read. It's tough to strike a balance between effecting peoples lives, the economy, etc and protection from covid. But yes, it would appear for the short term they have put the onus on the public to protect themselves rather than rule them.


----------



## TomB16

Couple of updates.

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) has sued the FDA over misrepresentation of off plan prescription with respect to Ivermectin. Specifically, physicians have been "subjected to professional discipline” for prescribing Ivermecting. This included all sort of punishments, including suspension of medical licenses.

Here is the conclusion of the brief: “Defendant FDA lacks both the authority and the expertise to practice medicine, interfere with the practice of medicine, guide the practice of medicine, or advise about the practice of medicine. Federal law is clear about this, and common sense reinforces it. FDA employees are not practicing physicians and are not treating patients. FDA employees, for the most part, are not even licensed physicians.”

As you probably suspect, the AAPS skews to right wing political views. Also, I will point out this complaint has not entered a trial phase and could be scuttled before doing so.

Meanwhile, in Europe, Dutch member of European parliament, Rob Roos, pressed a senior Pfizer representative to admit there was no COVID transmission testing during the initial emergency use trials. Mr. Roos indicates this brings into question the legal authority of vaccine passports and the initial vaccination campaigns that suggested we all need to get vaccinated to stop the spread.






Before you knee jerk reactionaries start pretending you have data, keep in mind nobody is saying the vaccine does not reduce the spread of COVID. The point is that nobody had data to indicate the vaccine had any impact on the spread of COVID.

Most people recall the initial roll-out of the vaccine and the branding of anti-vaxers as being fundamentally selfish. A few people do not recall this and suggest reduced spread was never a message. lol!

This is another case of North American healthcare misleading the public which is a fundamental form of corruption.

Meanwhile, in the UK, COVID seems to have levelled off after a small upswell of new cases. Zoe Data currently shows R=1 (or about the same number of new cases as recoveries). My apologies to our local alarmists.


----------



## HappilyRetired

TomB16 said:


> Couple of updates.
> 
> The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) has sued the FDA over misrepresentation of off plan prescription with respect to Ivermectin. Specifically, physicians have been "subjected to professional discipline” for prescribing Ivermecting. This included all sort of punishments, including suspension of medical licenses.
> 
> Here is the conclusion of the brief: “Defendant FDA lacks both the authority and the expertise to practice medicine, interfere with the practice of medicine, guide the practice of medicine, or advise about the practice of medicine. Federal law is clear about this, and common sense reinforces it. FDA employees are not practicing physicians and are not treating patients. FDA employees, for the most part, are not even licensed physicians.”
> 
> As you probably suspect, the AAPS skews to right wing political views.


The FDA skews to left wing political views and Big Pharma interests. And it looks like AAPS looks out for the best interest of physicians. However, I guess to some that is now right wing thinking.

By the way, prescribing off label drugs is legal and has always been legal. The FDA has no authority to say otherwise, but they're protecting Big Pharma and are not interested in the patients health:

*Doctors can prescribe medications for off-label use, meaning that it is used in a manner not specified in the FDA-approved label or insert. *Off-label prescribing is legal, with more than 20% percent of outpatient prescriptions written for off-label use.

FDA-approved drug labels contain information about the drug, including what conditions it is approved to treat, dosages, interactions with other drugs, side effects, and clinical studies on the product. However, the FDA regulates drug approval, not drug prescribing. *This means that doctors are legally allowed to prescribe a drug for any reason they consider medically appropriate*.

Can Doctors Prescribe Medications for Off-Label Use? (medicinenet.com)


----------



## cainvest

TomB16 said:


> Before you knee jerk reactionaries start pretending you have data, keep in mind nobody is saying the vaccine does not reduce the spread of COVID. The point is that nobody had data to indicate the vaccine had any impact on the spread of COVID.


Yup, pretty much the whole vaccine push is/was to reduce hospital loading and deaths. Reducing access to those not vaccinated (i.e. keeping them out of many crowded areas) was, I gather, a weak attempt to do the same.

What is very odd was the push to vaccinate children, specifically, all those that don't have undelying conditions which put them in a higher risk level. At my level of understanding this doesn't make any sense. Children have very low hospitalization/death rates and if the vaccine doesn't significantly reduce spreading why risk the shot?


----------



## HappilyRetired

cainvest said:


> Yup, pretty much the whole vaccine push is/was to reduce hospital loading and deaths. Reducing access to those not vaccinated (i.e. keeping them out of many crowded areas) was, I gather, a weak attempt to do the same.
> 
> What is very odd was the push to vaccinate children, specifically, all those that don't have undelying conditions which put them in a higher risk level. At my level of understanding this doesn't make any sense. Children have very low hospitalization/death rates and if the vaccine doesn't significantly reduce spreading why risk the shot?


Follow the money.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> What is very odd was the push to vaccinate children, specifically, all those that don't have undelying conditions which put them in a higher risk level. At my level of understanding this doesn't make any sense. Children have very low hospitalization/death rates and if the vaccine doesn't significantly reduce spreading why risk the shot?


I didn't understand this push either. And even when the vaccines came out, I had posted on here (and still think) that anyone under age 20 probably doesn't need vaccination. Children still were hospitalized, but looking at the stats, you've got to say that people under 25 are basically invincible when it comes to Covid.

(Though we shouldn't forget that a significant number of children did have liver damage and even liver failure, and Covid is suspected there, but not confirmed)


----------



## Beaver101

Looks like Ontario's fake CMO is back from his summer vacation:

Ontario's top doctor warns of more recommendations to public on masking as COVID cases rise



> _Ontario’s top doctor said he will make more recommendations on masking ahead of a "quite complex and difficult winter" battling COVID-19. ... _


 ... I don't get what's so "complicated and difficult the winter of 2022" will be when no one is listening anymore ... to him aka "recommendations" coming from him. And he can blame it all on himself for un-recommending the need of the mask message sent to the public.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> I didn't understand this push either. And even when the vaccines came out, I had posted on here (and still think) that anyone under age 20 probably doesn't need vaccination.


It would be interesting to see if most (all?) of those young people that did get hospitalized were higher risk, as in, had some other underlying health issue like severe asthma. Of course then it would make sense the vaccine would be a good option for them.

BTW, are children required to be fully vaccinated to attend school this fall?


----------



## Money172375

cainvest said:


> It would be interesting to see if most (all?) of those young people that did get hospitalized were higher risk, as in, had some other underlying health issue like severe asthma. Of course then it would make sense the vaccine would be a good option for them.
> 
> BTW, are children required to be fully vaccinated to attend school this fall?


Not in Ontario elementary or high schools . The term “fully vaccinated” isn’t even defined clearly. It’s more “stay on top of your vaccines”.

I believe Western university is the only university to require 3 shots to live on res.


----------



## TomB16

I just returned from the ER where a family member is being treated for something other than COVID. A paramedic I know was hanging out in the ER so we had a chat.

As far as I understand, there are currently no COVID patients in the ER. The ER is over designed capacity in that a couple of occupied beds in the hallway. They have about 15 empty hallway beds, though. I've seen it far more busy. There was less staff than I've come to expect but that aligned with the lower patient count and they seemed to be on top of everything.

I wish to mention our ER staff are tremendously impressive people. If ever I want a shining example of competence and hard work, it is this department of this hospital.

I'm aware there are COVID patients admitted to the facility but the number is no where near the peak during the delta wave. I will not share the number, as I'm not sure I am supposed to know it, but it seems reasonable to me.

It appears the sky is not falling in my city. No doubt, the sky will fall tomorrow and we will all die in an inferno of badness due to our lack of panic but, for now, we soldier on in adequacy.


----------



## s1231

cainvest said:


> Yup, pretty much the whole vaccine push is/was to reduce hospital loading and deaths. Reducing access to those not vaccinated (i.e. keeping them out of many crowded areas) was, I gather, a weak attempt to do the same.
> 
> What is very odd was the push to vaccinate children, specifically, all those that don't have undelying conditions which put them in a higher risk level. At my level of understanding this doesn't make any sense. Children have very low hospitalization/death rates and if the vaccine doesn't significantly reduce spreading why risk the shot?


It's a good open discussion there and will follow worldwide.




Healthcare workers call for a pause to vaccine rollout to healthy children
GB News Oct 1, 2022


----------



## sags

The situation is not good in Ontario where ERs are full of Covid patients.

Numbers leaked out are worse than was reported by the Ford government.

The numbers are awful.

83 minutes for ambulances to offload patients, 4 hours for first assessment by a doctor and 33 hours to get admitted to a bed.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580647399860899842





CityNews







toronto.citynews.ca


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I just returned from the ER where a family member is being treated for something other than COVID. A paramedic I know was hanging out in the ER so we had a chat.
> 
> As far as I understand, there are currently no COVID patients in the ER. The ER is over designed capacity in that a couple of occupied beds in the hallway. They have about 15 empty hallway beds, though. I've seen it far more busy. There was less staff than I've come to expect but that aligned with the lower patient count and they seemed to be on top of everything.
> 
> I wish to mention our ER staff are tremendously impressive people. If ever I want a shining example of competence and hard work, it is this department of this hospital.
> 
> I'm aware there are COVID patients admitted to the facility but the number is no where near the peak during the delta wave. I will not share the number, as I'm not sure I am supposed to know it, but it seems reasonable to me.
> 
> It appears the sky is not falling in my city. No doubt, the sky will fall tomorrow and we will all die in an inferno of badness due to our lack of panic but, for now, we soldier on in adequacy.


 .. then can Ontario send its patients to Saskatchewan of wherever you are? I would like to present your suggestion to Jones and the Moore-head, if not Ford that are far too many empty beds (including the hallways ones) in your district.


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> I just returned from the ER where a family member is being treated for something other than COVID. A paramedic I know was hanging out in the ER so we had a chat.
> 
> As far as I understand, there are currently no COVID patients in the ER. The ER is over designed capacity in that a couple of occupied beds in the hallway. They have about 15 empty hallway beds, though. I've seen it far more busy. There was less staff than I've come to expect but that aligned with the lower patient count and they seemed to be on top of everything.
> 
> I wish to mention our ER staff are tremendously impressive people. If ever I want a shining example of competence and hard work, it is this department of this hospital.
> 
> I'm aware there are COVID patients admitted to the facility but the number is no where near the peak during the delta wave. I will not share the number, as I'm not sure I am supposed to know it, but it seems reasonable to me.
> 
> It appears the sky is not falling in my city. No doubt, the sky will fall tomorrow and we will all die in an inferno of badness due to our lack of panic but, for now, we soldier on in adequacy.


1. That's because they don't put COVID patients in the ER, they segregate them to COVID isolation units as quickly as possible.
2. Many major Ontario hospital systems are running out of ambulances, that means there literally isn't an ambulance available for a call. 
- These are major centers with populations of 1/2 million people

Our health care system has basically collapsed. There are no credible plans to fix it, it needs to be restructured, but most plans are basically throw more money at it.
Also in Ontario it looks like the education monopoly wants double digit salary increases... it's going to be a tough couple of years.


----------



## sags

Some money should be spent building robotic diagnostic and treatment robots, equipped with AI and a built in up to database of medicine.

A medical office where you lie on a table and the robot above you asks questions about your history and can scan you using diagnostic tools.

We will always need specialists, but can spend more money training more of them than GPs.

In our local hospital they already have robotic assisted surgeries.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Problem is you would still need a "referral from a GP" for a "specialist" and then to a robotic specialist aka surgeon with specialized robotic skills.

And don't forget you would also need an anesthesiologist, OP nurse(s), if not an assisting surgeon for any surgical procedure. [We (the patient(s) haven't reached a stage of DIY surgical procedures (with / always an/some exception(s), of course). ]

Right now, GPs are becoming as scarce as the specialists. At least in Ontario.


----------



## like_to_retire

Beaver101 said:


> Problem is you would still need a "referral from a GP" for a "specialist"


That's right, and a lot of walk-in clinics don't want to get into the rules that apply after a doctor refers a patient to a specialist, so they have a rule of no referrals. Each province would be different, but generally they are responsible for providing appropriate follow-up on test results and must provide or arrange for the provision of necessary follow-up care, including reviewing consultation reports. This is stated fairly clearly in the CPSO (College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario) rules regarding Walk-In Clinics under (Managing Tests and Referrals). 

These follow up complications are a requirement if they do a referral, so they'd rather have you see your family doctor - which of course is difficult if you don't have one. The family doctor is an essential gatekeeper to the entire specialist system, and without one, you're in trouble depending on where you live.

ltr


----------



## s1231

damian13ster said:


> It is true except for MRNA vaccines for men under 40. In this scenario shot is much more likely to cause myocarditis than infection.
> Source: NHS


- (full) Press Conference: Dr. Aseem Malhotra's New Peer-Reviewed Papers

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojPT9TWBikU

worldcouncilforhealth.org Sep 27, 2022

Consultant Cardiologist Dr Aseem Malhotra will present

new evidence relating to the safety and efficacy of mRNA Covid-19 vaccines.



This will include analyses that answers the question

‘is there a link between these new types of vaccines and an increase in cardiac events?’

***

In a two-part paper entitled

“Curing the pandemic of misinformation on COVID-19 mRNA vaccines through real evidence-based medicine,” real-world data reveals that in the non-elderly population the number needed to vaccinate to prevent one death from Covid-19 runs into thousands 

and that re-analysis of randomised controlled trial data suggests a greater risk of suffering a serious adverse event from the vaccine than to be hospitalised with Covid-19.


----------



## sags

A sketchy source at best.









Mysterious Medical Organizations Are Calling for an End to COVID Vaccines


Blandly-named pseudo-medical organizations are promoting bad science, discredited drugs, and creating an industry of COVID denial.




www.vice.com





There is a long list of sketchy sources on Quackwatch.org.






Questionable Organizations: An Overview | Quackwatch


Promoters of questionable health practices often form organizations to multiply their effectiveness. How can one tell which ones are reliable and which are not? There is no sure way, but ten precautionary questions may help: 1. Are its ideas inside the scientific mainstream? Some groups admit th ...




quackwatch.org


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> A sketchy source at best.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mysterious Medical Organizations Are Calling for an End to COVID Vaccines
> 
> 
> Blandly-named pseudo-medical organizations are promoting bad science, discredited drugs, and creating an industry of COVID denial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vice.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a long list of sketchy sources on Quackwatch.org.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Questionable Organizations: An Overview | Quackwatch
> 
> 
> Promoters of questionable health practices often form organizations to multiply their effectiveness. How can one tell which ones are reliable and which are not? There is no sure way, but ten precautionary questions may help: 1. Are its ideas inside the scientific mainstream? Some groups admit th ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quackwatch.org


 ... sags, it's okay where one wants to get their "real" medical advice. And this is most likely at one's conventional medical office or the hospital. Fortunately, all doctors in those hospitals plus the doctors licensed by their respective health boards (eg. CPSO for Ontario) follows the "conventional" method and not some Youtube or internet quacksites. If those want to follow the internet sites for the "medical" advice, then by all means. After-all it's a free country where you can go anywhere to seek medical advice or help. Whether that advice "helps" aka actually saving your life or giving you (appropriate) treatment like saving your life, it's your choice. And I can bet a $1M 99.99% of those quack-whiners will go with the "conventional" method.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> Some money should be spent building robotic diagnostic and treatment robots, equipped with AI and a built in up to database of medicine.


Elizabeth Holmes is available to head that effort.

I apologize for the flip response. It was a feeble attempt to amuse myself. The idea is fundamentally sound and something that will dramatically change healthcare for the better but I suspect we are still several years away from the technology being viable. Of course, I hope I'm wrong and being overly pessimistic.

How great would it be if a CT scan could do it's own analysis? We could roll in, get the scan, and have an immediate report. My apologies to the CT scan operators I am trying to unemploy.

How great would it be if we could sit down at a machine, look into an eyepiece, and have it issue a prescription? We already have this. My optometrist has my prescription when I get to his room. He puts the correct prescription on his face plate optics, it looks great, then he flips it one increment in each direction to confirm it looks worse each time. It's like magic. His job is really quality control and to look for other health conditions.

We are on the cusp of so many great improvements but it is clear that we could go to a pharmacy right now and get an optical prescription but there is zero chance of that happening. It would kill a very profitable industry and prevent people from being monitored for glaucoma, cholesterol, retinal health, and several other things. It will be a steep, uphill, climb to remove humans from the health loop.


----------



## sags

I am thinking a Star Trek kind of body scanner.

Can you fix him doc ?

I am a doctor Jim, not a magician.

While we are at it, transfer all information from our brain into a computer chip and put it into a robotic humanoid.

Get rid of the old body and get a nice new titanium one.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> I am thinking a Star Trek kind of body scanner.


Throw in Jeri Ryan in a snug fitting cat suit and I will be your first sale.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> While we are at it, transfer all information from our brain into a computer chip and put it into a robotic humanoid.


A fellow forum member had his consciousness transferred into a semi-aquatic rodent. The procedure was largely successful but he did lose a couple of dozen IQ points in exchange for webbed back feet. In his case, it was probably equitable.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> I am thinking a Star Trek kind of body scanner.
> 
> Can you fix him doc ?
> 
> I am a doctor Jim, not a magician.
> 
> While we are at it, transfer all information from our brain into a computer chip and put it into a robotic humanoid.
> 
> Get rid of the old body and get a nice new titanium one.


 ... now if only the movie Replicas become a reality. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicas_(film)


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> A fellow forum member had his consciousness transferred into a semi-aquatic rodent. The procedure was largely successful but he did lose a couple of dozen IQ points in exchange for webbed back feet. In his case, it was probably equitable.


 ...was it your cousin Wayne99?


----------



## TomB16

Yes. It was Wayne. I'm sure you don't know him.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Yes. It was Wayne. I'm sure you don't know him.


 ... every Canadian knows who Wayne99 is.


----------



## james4beach

COVID-19 hospitalizations in Ontario reach five-month high as top health official warns of 'complex and difficult winter'


The number of people hospitalized with COVID-19 in Ontario has reached a five-month high and most public health indicators now point to a worsening wave of the pandemic.




www.cp24.com


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> Some money should be spent building robotic diagnostic and treatment robots, equipped with AI and a built in up to database of medicine.
> 
> A medical office where you lie on a table and the robot above you asks questions about your history and can scan you using diagnostic tools.
> 
> We will always need specialists, but can spend more money training more of them than GPs.
> 
> In our local hospital they already have robotic assisted surgeries.


yes the USA system is in the lead in developing new and better technologies for health treatment. Its great to see all this innovation.


----------



## sags

This covid has no quit in him. How do viruses "think" anyways. They plot ways to get around immunity and how to travel around all over the world.


----------



## james4beach

BC's Covid Modelling Group reiterates their warning that the government is under-reporting all metrics, including case numbers, hospitalizations *and deaths*.
​


> Otto said there should be stronger public health messaging about the importance of masks, specifically, and the report noted that getting boosted can reduce the impact of the fall wave of COVID.​​





https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-modelling-group-fall-wave-1.6617650


----------



## HappilyRetired

I would assume severe side effects from the shot (including deaths) are also under-reported.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> BC's Covid Modelling Group reiterates their warning that the government is under-reporting all metrics, including case numbers, hospitalizations *and deaths*.
> ​
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-modelling-group-fall-wave-1.6617650


 ... the bright side of this is supposedly save taxpayers a ton of money with little or no if not infrequent reporting. But then I don't know why we still have a CMO on Ontario's payroll. Man, must be a dream job to have to show your face to and in public once awhile.


----------



## james4beach

HappilyRetired said:


> I would assume severe side effects from the shot (including deaths) are also under-reported.


I think that's probably true. I think severe side effects of both the vaccine and Covid infection are under-reported.

But I think nearly all doctors would agree that a Covid infection is more dangerous (and worse effects) than the vaccine. So while I agree with you that the vaccine has some worrying side effects, I think Covid is worse... and if the vaccine makes it a milder diseases, it's still worth it.


----------



## damian13ster

Again, not for mrna vaccine for men under 40. That's why it needs to be personal choice based on age, health, gender, and by personal choice- I mean you aren't forced to be an outcast and discriminated if you don't make the choice that CEO of Pfizer wants you to make


----------



## sags

Doctors say severe side effects from the vaccine are very rare.

They are dealing with a lot of long haul Covid patients though.


----------



## sags

CPC MP Leslyn Lewis now wants an inquiry into this anti- vax nonsense.

There should be an inquiry, but it should look into how the CPC ends up with so many candidates that are on the wrong side of public opinion on so many issues.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> ....the wrong side of public opinion


You only have to look as far as the leader of the Liberal party to know how bright "the public" are in Canada.

ltr


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Doctors say severe side effects from the vaccine are very rare.
> 
> *They are dealing with a lot of long haul Covid patients though.*


 ... I think sooner than later that them medical doctors will make the "official=legal" determination as to who lives or who dies on this planet.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> CPC MP Leslyn Lewis now wants an inquiry into this anti- vax nonsense.
> 
> There should be an inquiry, but it should look into how the CPC ends up with so many candidates that are on the wrong side of public opinion on so many issues.


 ... are you serious with Ms. Lewis? That's counter to her boss' views <gasp!>. Besides, isn't part of the CPC's mandate is to 'save', not "waste aka spend" money with all these enquiries. Where is the money all coming from for the enquiry? The party's pockets or maybe PP's ... LMAO.


----------



## sags

An article on expanding more private healthcare to solve the critical state of affairs.

Some interesting points.....

There were 600,000 fewer surgeries performed during the pandemic.

Many sick Canadians had no access to healthcare.

Toronto hospitals hired nurses from an employment agency and had to pay twice the rate of pay that they pay to unionized nurses.

Some surgeries are already done privately and paid for by the patients or private insurance.

The private healthcare clinics deal with minor or simple procedures. They leave the complicated and long term healthcare to the public system.

All in all........privatization could be helpful providing immediate care that avoids trips to the ER, but it is a complicated issue.

The bottom line to me is that public or private doesn't solve the problem of a shortage of doctors, nurses, and healthcare workers.

It just raises the cost as the two systems compete with each other for staffing.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-healthcare-privatization-debate-second-opinion-1.6554073


----------



## sags

Canada is expecting another big wave of covid and flu infections, at a time when the hospitals are already understaffed and overwhelmed.

Health authorities are already mentioning mandatory masking and other restrictions may have to be put back into place.

_Hospital emergency departments are jammed up in much of the country even before the traditional flu season begins, raising concerns about the winter months ahead.

In Montreal, for instance, ERs hovered at about 150 per cent capacity for much of the past week — and some surpassed 200 per cent.

The situation is also troubling in other parts of Canada, including Alberta, British Columbia and Ontario.

"I've been in emergency medicine for almost 19 years now, and I have never seen the waits that our patients have to endure at all," said Dr. Carolyn Snider, the head of emergency medicine at St. Michael's Hospital in downtown Toronto.

"I think what's most concerning about it is that it doesn't feel like there's an end in sight for so many of us."

Dr. Supriya Sharma, Health Canada's chief medical adviser, noted that *another COVID-19 wave is beginning in Europe.*

"There's concerns that we might see a worse flu season than we've seen from the last couple of years and as well as keeping an eye on COVID cases," she said.

"*It's a matter of really being watchful and putting in place as many of our multi layers of our multi-layer public health approach as we possibly can."*_



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-ontario-quebec-bc-alberta-emergency-rooms-1.6616811


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> An article on expanding more private healthcare to solve the critical state of affairs.
> 
> Some interesting points.....
> 
> There were 600,000 fewer surgeries performed during the pandemic.
> 
> Many sick Canadians had no access to healthcare.
> 
> Toronto hospitals hired nurses from an employment agency and had to pay twice the rate of pay that they pay to unionized nurses.
> 
> Some surgeries are already done privately and paid for by the patients or private insurance.
> 
> *The private healthcare clinics deal with minor or simple procedures. They leave the complicated and long term healthcare to the public system.*
> 
> All in all........privatization could be helpful providing immediate care that avoids trips to the ER, but it is a complicated issue.
> 
> The bottom line to me is that public or private doesn't solve the problem of a shortage of doctors, nurses, and healthcare workers.
> 
> It just raises the cost as the two systems compete with each other for staffing.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-healthcare-privatization-debate-second-opinion-1.6554073


 ... VERY INTERESTING with the "even you're willing to pay for it".


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Canada is expecting another big wave of covid and flu infections, at a time when the hospitals are already understaffed and overwhelmed.
> 
> Health authorities are already mentioning mandatory masking and other restrictions may have to be put back into place.
> 
> _Hospital emergency departments are jammed up in much of the country even before the traditional flu season begins, raising concerns about the winter months ahead.
> 
> In Montreal, for instance, ERs hovered at about 150 per cent capacity for much of the past week — and some surpassed 200 per cent.
> 
> The situation is also troubling in other parts of Canada, including Alberta, British Columbia and Ontario.
> 
> "I've been in emergency medicine for almost 19 years now, and I have never seen the waits that our patients have to endure at all," said Dr. Carolyn Snider, the head of emergency medicine at St. Michael's Hospital in downtown Toronto.
> 
> "I think what's most concerning about it is that it doesn't feel like there's an end in sight for so many of us."
> 
> Dr. Supriya Sharma, Health Canada's chief medical adviser, noted that *another COVID-19 wave is beginning in Europe.*
> 
> "There's concerns that we might see a worse flu season than we've seen from the last couple of years and as well as keeping an eye on COVID cases," she said.
> 
> "*It's a matter of really being watchful and putting in place as many of our multi layers of our multi-layer public health approach as we possibly can."*_
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-ontario-quebec-bc-alberta-emergency-rooms-1.6616811


 ... NOT when you have a *STUPID and FAKE CMO *or Chief Public Medical Officer who has been advising the public ALL SUMMER long with 2 basic pointers of "it's okay to be maskless" and "it's okay to be Covid-positive and be at work or out in the public". Basically, things are back to "normal" or what's Covid?

And then you have the other *STUPID and INEPT so-called Health Minister* (who's primary job has been sucking her boss' ***) and play STUPID, DUMB, AND DEAF along with being MUTE. Of course, speaking of Ontario, Canada.

So, as a solution for our dear father Ford, can we send some of our sick patients this winter over to Alberta who's calling and/or Saskatchewan since they got such low bed numbers in their hospitals. We can certainly use some help for a change.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Health authorities are already mentioning mandatory masking and other restrictions may have to be put back into place.
> 
> _Hospital emergency departments are jammed up in much of the country even before the traditional flu season begins, raising concerns about the winter months ahead._


I saw this coming many months ago. It's also why I suggested (and continue) wearing masks myself: it's better to keep with the routine of it.

When you routinely wear a mask to go out to public places, it's really no big deal. You don't even have a second thought about it.

OTOH it's much harder for people to stop using masks, convince themselves covid is done, and *then have to resume using masks*. That's why I think the Public Health authorities made a big mistake by giving the public the impression that masks are not needed any more.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Just to satisfy the "whiners" aka the FreeDumbers. 

When you remove or take away something, it's ALWAYS DIFFICULT if not IMPOSSIBLE to re-implement it. That's why I say Ontario's CMO is the Dumbest if not the Fakest medical officer there is.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> Doctors say severe side effects from the vaccine are very rare.


Any doctor indicating this should show us the least bit of data on a study comparing vaccinated to non-vaccinated people.

Considering this data essentially doesn't exist, I question this cite.

In fact, we have gone out of our way to *not* study non-vaccinated people.

You can't just draw a line between a bad situation and the thing you don't like. Objectivity and honesty matter.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Just to satisfy the "whiners" aka the FreeDumbers.


Dam, Beaver. I respect how you don't even pretend to be objective.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Any doctor indicating this should show us the least bit of data on a study comparing vaccinated to non-vaccinated people.
> 
> Considering this data essentially doesn't exist, I question this cite.
> 
> In fact, we have gone out of our way to *not* study non-vaccinated people.


 ... not everybody wants to be a scientist / virologist wannabee here. 

So how about this - why don't you start a poll here and ask "did you get any side effects when taking the Covid vaccine such that you had to be hospitalized", including yourself? I think this is a fair question as I'm certain a number of people did get "side" effects but not "serious" enough to be hospitalized? I think the results here are reflective of the "general" living population. Of course, the deads can't speak for themselves here.



> You can't just draw a line between a bad situation and the thing you don't like. Objectivity and honesty matter.


 ... no, you're sounding very much like what you described. You don't like to take sags' answer and labels (him) as being dishonest when you well know he ain't no scientist. He's just relaying what he read.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Dam, Beaver. I respect how you don't even pretend to be objective.


 ... hey, gotta keep up with the times and learn it from the best. Tell it like it is.


----------



## sags

Doctors receive information from their peers all the time, and they are treating patients every day, so I will continue to trust their judgement.

I don’t subscribe to the conspiracy theories that mutate faster than the virus.


----------



## sags

Funny how people who latch onto conspiracy theories about doctors, rush into the ER to be treated by them when the need arises.

There were people in the ICUs dying of Covid who maintained the docs were wrong because Covid didn’t exist.


----------



## Beaver101

^ It's unfortunate but you got one born every minute, labelled without hesitation by the very same group of people.


----------



## Beaver101

A passenger who is suing a cruise company over its handling of COVID-19 says it was 'probably very stupid' of her to believe the vessel was free of the virus



> ..._ Karpik also told the court before she left for the cruise in March 2020, that her son-in-law, who is a doctor, offered his perspective on cruise ships. He said that they "were Petri dishes and the risk of infection was high for any illness," per the Guardian._ ...


 ... you think she's gonna to win the lawsuit when she confessed that ... oh boy.


----------



## james4beach

I have some vivid memories of Feb / March 2020. I went with a group of friends to the funeral of our friend's dad. He died at a pretty young age. We didn't know it at the time but he died from COVID.

So there we are, just as the exponential spread is starting, and we're in a huge funeral (maybe 50 to 100 people). Lots of old people, shaking hands. Covid is spreading among everyone and nobody even realizes the guy in the coffin died from it.

My friend who's an ER doc arrived at the funeral after his shift. He told us with a whisper that the Emergency hallways were full of people, a flu season like they've never seen. He said people are dying all over the place.

That's what the ER doc was telling us as we socialized and drank at the crowded funeral. Geez the things you see in hindsight... crazy world isn't it.


----------



## TomB16

In December of 2019, I was following COVID in China. When I mentioned on another investing web site that a pandemic was likely coming to the world, I was attacked and called a Democrat. Apparently, they did not want it to be true so they attacked the messenger. I suspect something similar would have happened here but perhaps to a lesser extent. The problem wasn't the site. The problem is the human condition.

It was a wild ride when we got it at the end of January, before COVID arrived in North America. lol!

BTW, when we were flying through Pearson, a group of about 15 masked Asians were being lead into an elevator by security. That sight haunts me to this day. It was a time when Asians were being persecuted for spreading the virus. I felt fine then but two days later, at home, I started to lose my sense of smell. One thing is certain: I did not contract COVID from that group of Asians who were masking and distancing before the rest of us were.

COVID has radically changed my view on healthcare. I still believe in North American healthcare but it is no longer above other healthcare systems, in my eyes. We have plenty of corruption and it's not going away. The vast majority of healthcare suits filed have been declined by the courts in the US. We are just starting to see some traction in this space with the suits like the one against the FDA under the freedom of information act which forced them to reveal the death count and many other details they learned in the study.


----------



## sags

Actually this is the second Covid thread on CMF. The first one started in Jan 2020 and ran almost 400 pages and 8000 posts before mods closed it and started a new one.

I think CMF members understood the reality from the outset.

I think most CMF members believe Canada has done as good or better job of dealing with Covid as other countries and the statistics support that view.

It was a deadly “novel” virus with no vaccines or known treatments after all.

There is a link to the original thread in the first post of this thread.

Videos out of China at that time were frightening to see and caused panic around the world.

The first wave of Covid killed a lot of people globally and in Canada , most notably in long term care homes.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> In December of 2019, I was following COVID in China. When I mentioned on another investing web site that a pandemic was likely coming to the world, I was attacked and called a Democrat.


lol

Your post was very interesting. Yeah, there has been a very unfortunate persecution of Asians throughout the pandemic. Though I did personally witness another kind of persecution. I was in Cuba when the pandemic was declared. One day the Cuban government rounded up the Italians at our resort and moved them to another property ... presumably because of the high case rates in Italy, or maybe as a kind of quarantine.

People were saying: "did you hear? The government came and took all the Italians away."

To their credit through, Cuba handled the pandemic pretty well and protected their citizens. They probably handled it better than America, a country that's 200x wealthier.


----------



## james4beach

American researchers took the Omicron virus (which kills 0% of mice), isolated its spike protein, and spliced it onto the original Covid virus. The resulting *new virus* they created, called Omi-S, kills 80% of mice.

The university is defending this work but this sounds extremely dangerous to me. They created a new virus (Omi-S) which has the extreme infectiousness of omicron, but with a super high 80% mortality rate. Keep in mind that plain omicron didn't kill any of the mice.

So compared to Omicron, their synthetically created Omi-S virus (a) replicates much faster, (b) gives more severe disease, and (c) is much more lethal.

Let's hope Omi-S doesn't escape from the lab! But you've got to wonder, how much research like this is happening all around the world? How long before one of these manufactured viruses escapes? Many still suspect that this is how we got Covid in the first place, escaped from a Wuhan lab.


----------



## sags

There is overwhelming evidence the virus escaped from the Wuhan lab.

I don't know why anyone thinks otherwise, given all the evidence.

I think a vaccine developed so quickly, which most scientists said was impossible, because the Chinese were forced to tell the US what they had created.

In return for the information, everybody keeps it a secret.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Where's the "proof" aka "evidence (scientific)", not an evident speculation? On the original Covid-virus, not the Omi-S one. The latter is definitely lab-generated based on link in post #3827. Either way mankind is screwed for fvcking around with mother nature. I hope an asteroid hits earth to wipe us off the map in order to save mankind the agony of another pandemic, especially one that's man-made.


----------



## Beaver101

Seneca College to drop COVID vaccine mandate in January



> _...
> Seneca, which has 45,000 full-time and 45,000 part-time students with campuses in Toronto, York Region and Peterborough, will continue to follow its modified masking protocol. *With the ongoing threat from variants and the flu, said Agnew, “it is probably the wrong time to lift the mask mandate*.”_


 ... first college in Toronto, Ontario to drop its vaccination mandate despite a win in court over "2 (yes, 1 + 1 = 2 un-vaccinated anti vaxxing students) of 45K full + 45K part-timers.

Looks like its president likes to talk from 2 sides of his mouth with that ending note (bolded above). Good luck with the decision.


----------



## Birder

james4beach said:


> The university is defending this work but this sounds extremely dangerous to me. They created a new virus (Omi-S) which has the extreme infectiousness of omicron, but with a super high 80% mortality rate.


Very scary stuff. No one should be allowed to do this - of what possible use is this new virus?


----------



## james4beach

Birder said:


> Very scary stuff. No one should be allowed to do this - of what possible use is this new virus?


There's some benefit for research purposes but I don't think it should be allowed at all. Too risky... I think there's seriously wrong with the scientific community that is OK with this kind of thing. And I say that as a scientist myself.


----------



## sags

Peter Mansbridge was talking with some experts on his podcast “The Bridge” and said he already has 5 shots plus he already had Covid.

I am getting my 4th soon.

I hear it isn’t that bad to get.









Lucho-tx on TikTok


#viral #amigos #parati #fpyシ #fyp #comedia #video #viralvideos




vm.tiktok.com


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Peter Mansbridge was talking with some experts on his podcast “The Bridge” and said he already has 5 shots plus he already had Covid.
> 
> I am getting my 4th soon.


Just make sure you wait 6 months since a previous shot (or natural infection). That's just a rule of thumb though. Younger people can afford to wait longer in between shots, and someone at high risk may need them more frequently.


----------



## MrMatt

Birder said:


> Very scary stuff. No one should be allowed to do this - of what possible use is this new virus?


Proving that something is a legitimate risk.
Ensuring you have technical capacity.

Lets say there was some sort of foreign Coronavirus research lab, and they accidentally release a virulent dangerous virus and it starts sweeping the globe.
Wouldn't it be a good idea to have some top people on "your side" who understand these viruses at a very advanced level to figure out how to protect against it?


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> There's some benefit for research purposes but I don't think it should be allowed at all. Too risky... I think there's seriously wrong with the scientific community that is OK with this kind of thing. And I say that as a scientist myself.


I think not having knowledge is riskier.

I think there is something seriously wrong in the scientific community if they thing ignorance is the best defense.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Peter Mansbridge was talking with some experts on his podcast “The Bridge” and said he already has 5 shots plus he already had Covid.
> 
> I am getting my 4th soon.
> 
> I hear it isn’t that bad to get.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lucho-tx on TikTok
> 
> 
> #viral #amigos #parati #fpyシ #fyp #comedia #video #viralvideos
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vm.tiktok.com


 ... got my 4th shot (the half original and half Omicron) just before my dental cleaning. 6 months past already. This time, felt a slight prick in the arm. That's it.


----------



## undersc0re

I was just about to go get a booster Monday, but felt sick last Thursday and quickly degraded, got a test done on Sunday and was positive for covid….would getting covid be better than the booster I would have gotten if not sick to keep me from getting it again through winter?
I have since found out covid is spreading through the community like wildfire last couple weeks…first I have ever had it. Not fun, but not as bad as i thought it might get….yet…lol.


----------



## Beaver101

undersc0re said:


> I was just about to go get a booster Monday, but felt sick last Thursday and quickly degraded, got a test done on Sunday and was positive for covid….would getting covid be better than the booster I would have gotten if not sick to keep me from getting it again through winter?
> I have since found out covid is spreading through the community like wildfire last couple weeks…first I have ever had it. Not fun, but not as bad as i thought it might get….yet…lol.


 ... you're fine. It's a booster. You're protected from "serious" Covid. Just pray there're no lingering effects aka long Covid.


----------



## TomB16

undersc0re said:


> I was just about to go get a booster Monday, but felt sick last Thursday and quickly degraded, got a test done on Sunday and was positive for covid….would getting covid be better than the booster I would have gotten if not sick to keep me from getting it again through winter?
> I have since found out covid is spreading through the community like wildfire last couple weeks…first I have ever had it. Not fun, but not as bad as i thought it might get….yet…lol.


There is evidence to show COVID provides longer term protection than the vaccine but none of this data is collected on the most recent variants, as there simply has not been the time.

You are going to be OK. Current strains are not as deadly as early strains. COVID still kills people but it's pretty rare.


----------



## james4beach

undersc0re said:


> I was just about to go get a booster Monday, but felt sick last Thursday and quickly degraded, got a test done on Sunday and was positive for covid….would getting covid be better than the booster I would have gotten if not sick to keep me from getting it again through winter?
> I have since found out covid is spreading through the community like wildfire last couple weeks…first I have ever had it. Not fun, but not as bad as i thought it might get….yet…lol.


Sorry to hear that. You're right, covid is spreading like wildfire as all the most careful people I know (including me!) finally caught it in the last few weeks.

Now that you have a natural infection you're going to have antibodies generated that are just as good as a booster shot. I'm in the same boat as you, I caught covid recently but did not get a bivalent booster.

It's OK. After the sickness you will have high levels of antibodies tuned specifically to what's circulating now (likely BA4 or BA5), you didn't "miss out" by not having the booster. These antibodies are believed to last for 6 to 12 months and keep protecting you.

Rest up and beware that you are still contagious for several days after you start to feel better. I found that my symptoms dragged on for about 20 days, though most of that time was mild... but it did take me 20 days to feel completely well.


----------



## sags

undersc0re said:


> I was just about to go get a booster Monday, but felt sick last Thursday and quickly degraded, got a test done on Sunday and was positive for covid….would getting covid be better than the booster I would have gotten if not sick to keep me from getting it again through winter?
> I have since found out covid is spreading through the community like wildfire last couple weeks…first I have ever had it. Not fun, but not as bad as i thought it might get….yet…lol.


Oh.....bad timing.

The same happened to my wife. She was scheduled for the booster but got covid instead. They recommend she wait awhile for the booster shot now.

Good luck......get lots of rest.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> *There is evidence to show COVID provides longer term protection than the vaccine but none of this data is collected on the most recent variants,* as there simply has not been the time.
> 
> You are going to be OK. Current strains are not as deadly as early strains. *COVID still kills people but it's pretty rare.*


 ... amazing claims with an all-in-one. Where's the data?


----------



## MrBlackhill

Welcome to the COVID era.

My wife is forced to go to the office twice a week.

This morning she was coughing a bit so she was wondering:

If I don't go to the office, people will judge me for going against the rules forced upon all employees and believe I'm lying
If I go to the office and cough, people will judge me for going to the office while I'm sick 
Toxic environments of fear, jealousy and lack of trust.


----------



## Beaver101

Why is she wondering (plus "forced" to)? What're her employer's polic(ies)? Surely, that's spelled out by now ... a 3 years Covid era.


----------



## cainvest

MrBlackhill said:


> My wife is forced to go to the office twice a week.
> 
> This morning she was coughing a bit so she was wondering:
> 
> If I don't go to the office, people will judge me for going against the rules forced upon all employees and believe I'm lying
> If I go to the office and cough, people will judge me for going to the office while I'm sick


email the boss and ask?


----------



## TomB16

Zoe Data shows COVID rates in the UK are falling a small but noticeable amount. Currently R<1 which means the number of active infections is decreasing.

ONS data shows COVID rates are climbing but Zoe has always been a couple of weeks ahead owing to how each collects data. ONS data has always caught up so there is little doubt infections are falling a bit in the UK in real time.

Canada has tended to be 6~8 weeks behind UK so there is a good chance we will have a COVID reduction in the near future.


----------



## MrBlackhill

cainvest said:


> email the boss and ask?


Doesn't stop people from judging.


----------



## Gator13

MrBlackhill said:


> Welcome to the COVID era.
> 
> My wife is forced to go to the office twice a week.
> 
> This morning she was coughing a bit so she was wondering:
> 
> If I don't go to the office, people will judge me for going against the rules forced upon all employees and believe I'm lying
> If I go to the office and cough, people will judge me for going to the office while I'm sick
> Toxic environments of fear, jealousy and lack of trust.


Forced or a requirement of her position? Alternatively, if she doesn't like going to the office, she can quit and move on to a different job.


----------



## cainvest

MrBlackhill said:


> Doesn't stop people from judging.


Never will stop them but at least you can give the reason why you are there or not there.
Also, at least by my standards, I don't care what "judgy people" think as they are obviously not friends of mine.


----------



## MrBlackhill

Gator13 said:


> Forced or a requirement of her position? Alternatively, if she doesn't like going to the office, she can quit and move on to a different job.


Forced by authority. Not a requirement.

When looking at the bigger picture, it's not worth changing job though. Simply a pain in the @$$.



cainvest said:


> Also, at least by my standards, I don't care what "judgy people" think as they are obviously not friends of mine.


In many cases, appearances matter and end up affecting collaboration, networking and promotions. So, yes, judgement, what people thinks of you, matters.

It's plain stupid how my wife is currently working within a team who all hate being in the office, aren't as productive when being in the office, but they all follow the rules without whining and the managers above that team always use that team as a good example... a well-behaved team with a good reputation...

And since they all follow the rules, people are very judging when someone is absent, looking for a proof that the team isn't perfect, while it's actually simply because she's sick. But then people will judge if she's sick too often (well, we have a baby at day care, we're always sick!).


----------



## Beaver101

^ Sounds like she's caught between a rock and a hard-place. 

If she's "physically well" (ie. can make it to the office) and is expected to be "in the office", then so be it. It's great collaboration and networking to "share the germs". I hope her superiors get it - any version of germs.


----------



## ian

Getting our hi test flu shots on Monday.

Have to wait until early Jan to get my covid bivalent booster since I had only the 4th covid booster last July. Just in time for our tentative winter travels.


----------



## andrewf

cainvest said:


> email the boss and ask?


As a boss, I don't care if people come to the office. There is some higher level divisional KPI reporting of average weekly attendance and I only care insofar as those KPIs are happy. I was shown a dashboard and asked to review it weekly to monitor my team's compliance. I looked at it once. I have days where I am working at other locations other than our office and I don't get counted as attending the office. Other days I badge in and back out again in maybe 15 minutes before going to another location (eg carpooling with a coworker). How the KPIs track this I know not. I figure a scan is a scan and it doesn't care if you are there for five minutes or 8 hours. They only care if they are hitting their 2.7 or so unique days per week per employee (mandated 3 less vacation, travel days, sick days). I work with a team that travels a great deal, and are often out of town M-F for weeks at a time.

All this attendance measurement stuff is kind of silly. As I said, as a manager I don't care at all, except as much as the eye of sauron in upper management doesn't focus on me or my team over it.


----------



## cainvest

MrBlackhill said:


> In many cases, appearances matter and end up affecting collaboration, networking and promotions. So, yes, judgement, what people thinks of you, matters.


If that what matters for her then you'll need to find another solution. You definitely can't please all the people all the time.


----------



## Beaver101

ian said:


> Getting our hi test flu shots on Monday.
> 
> Have to wait until early Jan to get my covid bivalent booster since I had only the 4th covid booster last July. Just in time for our tentative winter travels.


 ... what's a "hi test" flu shot? Flu shots in Ontario aren't available until November or at earliest of November 1st. While they already had them in August (of this year) in Texas.


----------



## Money172375

ian said:


> Getting our hi test flu shots on Monday.
> 
> Have to wait until early Jan to get my covid bivalent booster since I had only the 4th covid booster last July. Just in time for our tentative winter travels.


Three types available for those 65+ in Ontario.

*65 and older*
For the 2022/2023 season, if you're 65 and older, there are three different flu shots available:

The standard-dose vaccine that protects against four strains of flu virus.
The adjuvanted vaccine that protects against three strains of flu virus and contains an adjuvant (a substance added to a vaccine that helps the recipient develop an improved immune response).
The high-dose vaccine, that protects against four strains of flu virus, but in higher doses.
All three flu vaccine types are safe, effective and offer strong protection to seniors. Talk to your doctor, nurse practitioner, pharmacist or public health unit about which option is best for you. To get any of the standard dose, the adjuvanted or the high dose:

visit a doctor or nurse practitioner
contact your local public health unit
visit a participating pharmacy

Starting in October, flu shots will be available in the community from participating health care providers and pharmacies for seniors and those at higher risk of complications from the flu. Vaccine availability may vary by provider.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Okay, thanks for the details. I'm not a senior so don't know all those details. I just get the "regular" (whatever that means or non-senior) flu-shot.


----------



## like_to_retire

Beaver101 said:


> Flu shots in Ontario aren't available until November or at earliest of November 1st.


I guess they came early, mine is scheduled for Tuesday.

ltr


----------



## Beaver101

like_to_retire said:


> I guess they came early, mine is scheduled for Tuesday.
> 
> ltr


 ... yes for you. My doc back in September(?) told me their earliest shipment was end of October and then I saw the news saying it's by November 1st so I took that. I haven't called my doc as it's just the flu shot and I prefer to get it from the doc's office than the pharmacies which are a hit-and-miss if not PITA booking.


----------



## james4beach

I just got the regular (adult) flu shot today as a walk-in at the Safeway pharmacy. The province's booking system was malfunctioning anyway.

So far, no sickness/tiredness side effects, just a sore arm.


----------



## cainvest

Anyone get the pfizer bivalent booster yet?


----------



## Money172375

cainvest said:


> Anyone get the pfizer bivalent booster yet?


My mom did


----------



## cainvest

Money172375 said:


> My mom did


Just got it this last week? How'd it go?


----------



## Money172375

cainvest said:


> Just got it this last week? How'd it go?


No side effects.


----------



## sags

I made an appointment for yesterday at Food Basics Pharmacy and showed up on time.

The woman told me I had the wrong date because they didn't have any vaccine until next week. I had the right date and time, but I left.

Then they sent me an text message asking me to re-book the appointment.

The Shoppers website wouldn't allow booking yesterday and there is no flu vaccine around anywhere that I have seen.

With only 16% take up of the vaccine........why is it so hard to find ?


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> The Shoppers website wouldn't allow booking yesterday and there is no flu vaccine around anywhere that I have seen.


Try walking in and asking directly at the pharmacy of a few large chains. I tried three places; the first two places were fully booked up, but the third said they could do it as a walk-in. Take your health card with you obviously.

I didn't have any sick or tired feeling after the flu shot (no side effects).


----------



## Beaver101

^ "By now", it shouldn't be "hard" to find. Try Walmart's pharmacy if there's one near you. The problem with getting the vaccine at the "pharmacies (and I'm talking about big chains only)" is a "hit and miss" even just as you described which is a PITA. That's what happened to a family member who decided "last year" to go to a "pharmacy" instead of the mass vax center, only to be told first "we don't know what you're talking about?" when their website specifically screamed "Book Your Covid vaccination appointment here!" Imagine that so I digress and told him - just look and book it on the government's portal. Once you're emailed back a booking number, that confirms you're set for it.

Is there no vaccination center in your big town? Check the government's portal too.

If the pharmacy is the only place you can get your vax and/or flu shot - and once you're "booked", call them ahead of time to "double-sure" it's available so you don't make a trip unnecessarily. 

I get my "flu" shot from my GP's office as I don't want to play the pharmacy's hit and miss program plus having to answer a slew of questionnaire(s)/paperwork to fill in ... another PITA.


----------



## kcowan

Beav you are trapped in the old world! New world GPs tell us to go to the government portal!


----------



## Beaver101

kcowan said:


> Beav you are trapped in the old world! New world GPs tell us to go to the government portal!


 ... huh? I did all "my" bookings through the government's portal. It was a family member who attempted the pharmacy. Now if them pharmacy can't handle it or get their act together, then don't advertise it! Sheesh.

Since you're so up to date kcowan, tell me if IG, TickTock, Twitter, FB and the whole nine yards of "social medias" considered as part of the new world GPS? If so, then I'm expecting there'll be more falling off the edges.


----------



## james4beach

I have a family member who is suffering severe side effects from the mRNA vaccines. Before I get into the details, we already know the Covid vaccines have side effects. There is definitely risk involved with these things. The belief is that it's safer to get the vaccine than a full-blown covid illness.

This is a 75 year old woman within a group of 6 family members around the same age. All of these 6 people had 4x mRNA shots (one of them had 5x shots) and the other 5 had no problems.

This woman's health was not great to start. She had a variety of chronic conditions and was taking a large amount of medication, but I think it should be noted that she was reasonably well and was living independently. Her general condition took a notable turn for the worse immediately after her 3rd mRNA dose. She experienced an increase in pain and also more difficulty with walking and mobility.

But things went bonkers after her 4th dose. *Immediately after her 4th mRNA dose*, her pain increased again. Like many of us, she had increased muscle pain/soreness immediately after vaccination, but while this goes away for most people after a couple days, hers never dissipated. Instead it seems that she become truly disabled after the 4th dose. She lost the ability to walk and has been in a wheelchair ever since. Based on the timing of all this, it really looks like the mRNA doses aggravated some kind of condition that she already had.

One of my family members who saw her in person said that the poor woman looked like she was suffering constant torture.

Then some other complicated stuff happened. She suffered an injury/accident related to her poor mobility and I don't know all the details, but today she is in the ICU and we are all praying that she lives.


WHAT TO MAKE OF ALL THIS?

Remember, this is an anecdote, the story of just one person. Her siblings/family, the other 5 people, experienced nothing like this. It's also known that severe side effects to mRNA shots do happen. She obviously got very unlucky and was one of those cases where things went badly.

I would suggest that if you had an _unusually severe reaction_ to your 2nd or 3rd shot, maybe think carefully before getting another booster shot. From what I heard, this woman even felt a lot of discomfort after the 2nd shot. For example my parents experienced minor discomfort from each shot and I think my mom hardly felt anything at all. The usual thing would be to have two or three days of discomfort at most, *but there shouldn't be lingering pain*.


----------



## james4beach

Oh also wanted to add to the above story, this is outside of Canada. Where she lives, I don't believe there is any reporting mechanism for this adverse reaction so I doubt it will end up in any statistics about adverse vaccine effects. You've got to wonder how many cases like this in the world are never reported as vaccine-related. When an old woman has deteriorating health, it's easy for doctors to write it off as "getting older". Our family, which has many scientists by the way -- including a pharmacologist -- strongly believes her deterioration was triggered or worsened by the booster shots.

Ping @MrMatt @HappilyRetired


----------



## sags

Blood samples would reveal high levels of inflammation, which accounts for the muscle pain.

Dehydration for old people can be a factor as well.

Did she check with a doctor about drug reactions?

There is a long list of questions we have to answer about past symptoms before getting a shot.

Did she not have to report those?

It sounds like she just went ahead regardless of her past interactions.

I will book at the mass clinic because the pharmacies either have no clue or just want people to come to the store and maybe buy something while there.

It is at the other end of the city and a Pita but only way to get it for sure.

Nobody has flu vaccine around here we are told. 

Give it a couple weeks and the media will announce it as breaking news.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Did she check with a doctor about drug reactions?
> 
> There is a long list of questions we have to answer about past symptoms before getting a shot.


That's a good point. I don't know the details, perhaps as you say she forgot to check with her doctor about potential interactions.


----------



## ian

We are both booked for the hi test flu shot on Monday. I booked it on line last week. Would have been last week but spouse was in Ontario. It was very easy for us to book on line and very straightforward.

I was in Costco on Thursday. There was a pharmacy clerk standing in the aisle near the check out lines offering customers the flu shot. . I asked her ...they had regular and hi test flu shots available.

I was advised to wait until late Dec/early Jan for the bivalent booster because I had my fourth Pfizer in July.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I have a family member who is suffering severe side effects from the mRNA vaccines. Before I get into the details, we already know the Covid vaccines have side effects. There is definitely risk involved with these things. The belief is that it's safer to get the vaccine than a full-blown covid illness.
> 
> This is a 75 year old woman within a group of 6 family members around the same age. All of these 6 people had 4x mRNA shots (one of them had 5x shots) and the other 5 had no problems.
> 
> This woman's health was not great to start. She had a variety of chronic conditions and was taking a large amount of medication, but I think it should be noted that she was reasonably well and was living independently. Her general condition took a notable turn for the worse immediately after her 3rd mRNA dose. She experienced an increase in pain and also more difficulty with walking and mobility.
> 
> But things went bonkers after her 4th dose. *Immediately after her 4th mRNA dose*, her pain increased again. Like many of us, she had increased muscle pain/soreness immediately after vaccination, but while this goes away for most people after a couple days, hers never dissipated. Instead it seems that she become truly disabled after the 4th dose. She lost the ability to walk and has been in a wheelchair ever since. Based on the timing of all this, it really looks like the mRNA doses aggravated some kind of condition that she already had.
> 
> One of my family members who saw her in person said that the poor woman looked like she was suffering constant torture.
> 
> Then some other complicated stuff happened. She suffered an injury/accident related to her poor mobility and I don't know all the details, but today she is in the ICU and we are all praying that she lives.
> 
> 
> WHAT TO MAKE OF ALL THIS?
> 
> Remember, this is an anecdote, the story of just one person. Her siblings/family, the other 5 people, experienced nothing like this. It's also known that severe side effects to mRNA shots do happen. She obviously got very unlucky and was one of those cases where things went badly.
> 
> I would suggest that if you had an _unusually severe reaction_ to your 2nd or 3rd shot, maybe think carefully before getting another booster shot. From what I heard, this woman even felt a lot of discomfort after the 2nd shot. For example my parents experienced minor discomfort from each shot and I think my mom hardly felt anything at all. The usual thing would be to have two or three days of discomfort at most, *but there shouldn't be lingering pain*.


 ... thanks for sharing this anecdote. So very sorry to hear your relative suffered a severe reaction to the shot, particularly the last one. It's pretty obvious the shot has aggravated her existing medical conditions or her existing medications reacted with the shot. 

It would have been helpful if there was someone on her side, helped in monitoring, guiding or advising her about getting that booster or not once she reacted like that on her 2nd one.

Like sags was saying, where's her doc in all of this? Not looking to blame but she clearly needed help even before getting the shot(s). 

Hope she recovers (soon). Very sad. I can presume she was a very independent woman.


----------



## kcowan

Beaver101 said:


> ... huh? I did all "my" bookings through the government's portal. It was a family member who attempted the pharmacy. Now if them pharmacy can't handle it or get their act together, then don't advertise it! Sheesh.
> 
> Since you're so up to date kcowan, tell me if IG, TickTock, Twitter, FB and the whole nine yards of "social medias" considered as part of the new world GPS? If so, then I'm expecting there'll be more falling off the edges.


OK I misunderstood your comment.

I am also unsure what your point is with the social media reference?


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... thanks for sharing this anecdote. So very sorry to hear your relative suffered a severe reaction to the shot, particularly the last one. It's pretty obvious the shot has aggravated her existing medical conditions or her existing medications reacted with the shot.


Thanks. I don't know what the doctor's role was. I really hope she consulted with a doc, but I don't know those kinds of details.

I guess it's a good reminder that anyone in delicate health, or with complex conditions (including medications) should be really careful and talk with a doctor before proceeding with shots. The vaccines are known to cause severe inflammation. Of course, Covid infection also causes severe inflammation.


----------



## Eclectic21

Beaver101 said:


> ... The problem with getting the vaccine at the "pharmacies (and I'm talking about big chains only)" is a "hit and miss" even just as you described which is a PITA ...


YMMV ... so far, whether it's the pharmacy or the local health authority's clinic - booking then showing up five minutes early meant it was a smooth process that was on time and on the date booked.

For two of the shots, skipping the pharmacy would have meant a delay of three weeks or more.

Neighbours asked the pharmacist to put them on a list where they received a call in about a week saying they could walk in (i.e. they did not book an appointment).


Cheers


----------



## Money172375

Trouble is doctors can’t agree on what to do. I have a family member who is a cancer research doctor. He suggested the vaccines don’t do much for cancer patients as they don’t build antibodies. Yet, our family doctor was adamant that Everyone get the shot. 

seems like it’s take the chance with the vaccine or take the chance with the virus. 

Feel like I’ll get my bivalent shot in early December. Had COVID in July. Suggesting to my kids (18 and 17) to go without their 3rd dose.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Feel like I’ll get my bivalent shot in early December. Had COVID in July.


Your July omicron would have generated antibodies pretty similar to the new booster. So you're guessing that your immunity would wane in 5 months?

I think that studies have suggested that immunity lasts anywhere from 4 to 12 months, a pretty wide range.


----------



## james4beach

We have to keep an eye on new variants, especially XBB. It's probably going to re-infect people who've had Covid before and also hospitalize some vaccinated people.

Singapore is now in an XBB wave, despite very high rates of vaccination and boosting. They're seeing an increase in hospitalizations.

Fortune article on XBB
and CBC article

How the hell are masks not mandatory for air travel and public transportation? Contact your members of parliament.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Your July omicron would have generated antibodies pretty similar to the new booster. So you're guessing that your immunity would wane in 5 months?
> 
> I think that studies have suggested that immunity lasts anywhere from 4 to 12 months, a pretty wide range.


i Suppose. Seems the headlines are getting a little more worrisome about the next wave. Haven’t made up my mind. I live in a smaller community that avoided COVID for the first 18 months with very low infection rates. That being said, I do plan on playing indoor communal sports this winter, as I did last winter.


----------



## HappilyRetired

The problem with not counting people as vaccinated until 14 days after the shot is that it skews the results so bad that even a placebo can be considered to be effective. The math explained:

How an illusion of efficacy can be established for any treatment - YouTube 

How come none of the so-called experts have brought this up before?


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> i Suppose. Seems the headlines are getting a little more worrisome about the next wave. Haven’t made up my mind. I live in a smaller community that avoided COVID for the first 18 months with very low infection rates. That being said, I do plan on playing indoor communal sports this winter, as I did last winter.


Here COVID is dropping off.

But Flu and other respiratory illnesses are going crazy, but since they're not COVID they're not getting the same attention. Going to be a lot of coughing this winter.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Here COVID is dropping off.
> 
> But Flu and other respiratory illnesses are going crazy, but since they're not COVID they're not getting the same attention.* Going to be a lot of coughing this winter.*


 ... as if you were a medical expert, let alone a Covid one. Why should the flu get the same "attention" as Covid when the mentality is Covid is the flu and vice-versa. Duh.

Better stock up on the cough syrups, drops, Tylenol and whatever and nurse yourself since there ain't any family physician to see you through those coughings, flu, cold and Covid. Plus all "coughing" and fever are flying off the shelves of pharmacies as well. However, for Covid, at they can put you on a ventilator at the ER as a last sort treatment. Waaah!!!!!!


----------



## MrMatt

MrMatt said:


> Here COVID is dropping off.
> 
> But Flu and other respiratory illnesses are going crazy, but since they're not COVID they're not getting the same attention. *Going to be a lot of coughing this winter.*





Beaver101 said:


> ... as if you were a medical expert, let alone a Covid one. Why should the flu get the same "attention" as Covid when the mentality is Covid is the flu and vice-versa. Duh.


If the hospitals and health units are reporting a significant increase in Flu and respiratory illnesses starting now, it is quite reasonable to expect that a lot of people will be coughing during flu season.

The reason it is important is that while COVID is dropping off, the dramatic increase in flu and similar cases are going to put a lot of pressure on reparatory illness treatment, because a lot of people are going to be sick. When the hospitals are full of people who need help, it doesn't really matter if it is COVID or the Flu or something else, it's still a problem.


You don't need to be a "medical expert" to understand that if there are a lot of cases, we might have a problem.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> If the hospitals and health units are reporting a significant increase in Flu and respiratory illnesses starting now, it is quite reasonable to expect that a lot of people will be coughing during flu season.


 ... why are the hospitals and health units 1. reporting and, 2 a significant increase in the flu and all that coughings at that? We're not even getting reporting in Covid numbers, let alone tracking the the benign flu. Be-jesus. 



> The reason it is important is that while COVID is dropping off, the dramatic increase in flu and similar cases are going to put a lot of pressure on reparatory illness treatment, because a lot of people are going to be sick. When the hospitals are full of people who need help, it doesn't really matter if it is COVID or the Flu or something else, it's still a problem.
> 
> You don't need to be a "medical expert" to understand that if there are a lot of cases, we might have a problem.


 ... maybe you can tell that to our fake CMO who rears his head once once a quarter.


----------



## damian13ster

New Covid Boosters Aren’t Better Than Old Ones, Study Finds







www.bloomberg.com


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... why are the hospitals and health units 1. reporting and, 2 a significant increase in the flu and all that coughings at that? We're not even getting reporting in Covid numbers, let alone tracking the the benign flu. Be-jesus.


Because they track and report all sorts of stuff.

You don't think we are getting reporting on Covid numbers? 

We've been getting them for the last 2 years, people were talking about it a lot, it was in the news. Have you been living under a rock?






Status of COVID-19 cases in Ontario - Ontario Data Catalogue


As of June 16, all COVID-19 datasets will be updated weekly on Thursdays by 2pm. This dataset compiles daily snapshots of publicly reported data on 2019 Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) testing in...




data.ontario.ca


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Because they track and report all sorts of stuff.
> 
> You don't think we are getting reporting on Covid numbers?
> 
> We've been getting them for the last 2 years, people were talking about it a lot, it was in the news. Have you been living under a rock?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Status of COVID-19 cases in Ontario - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> As of June 16, all COVID-19 datasets will be updated weekly on Thursdays by 2pm. This dataset compiles daily snapshots of publicly reported data on 2019 Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) testing in...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> data.ontario.ca


 ... yeah, I have been living under a rock. And why are you tracking the hospital numbers? Covid is the flu only.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... yeah, I have been living under a rock. And why are you tracking the hospital numbers? Covid is the flu only.


Why am I looking at hospital numbers? Because I want to know what's going on, and I don't trust the medias reporting.
It's not that hard to just look up the status of diseases in your local hospital/health unit. so why not skip the middleman with an agenda?

No COVID19 and the flu are distinct viruses, with different symptoms and risk profiles.
Why would you think that they're the same?


----------



## james4beach

I believe there are more people in hospital now with COVID than at any time in 2020 and 2021.

The part I'm unclear about though is if we're comparing apples to apples. Are people in hospital due to COVID? I haven't seen that comparison vs 2021.


----------



## Money172375

I’m starting to feel a bigger disconnect. Seems some data…hospital numners and deaths (higher in 2022 than 2021 and 2020)……yet, there’s very little talk from government or health units.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> I’m starting to feel a bigger disconnect. Seems some data…hospital numners and deaths (higher in 2022 than 2021 and 2020)……yet, there’s very little talk from government or health units.


My sense is that the Canadian strategy is currently to try ignoring the situation. Very little monitoring and reporting, no public visibility.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> I believe there are more people in hospital now with COVID than at any time in 2020 and 2021.


That's not what the data shows. COVID-19 epidemiology update - Canada.ca

Also hospitalizations are still mostly the older crowd of 70+.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Why am I looking at hospital numbers? Because I want to know what's going on, and I don't trust the medias reporting.
> It's not that hard to just look up the status of diseases in your local hospital/health unit. so why not skip the middleman with an agenda?


 ... and why do you want to know what's going on in the hospitals as far as the stats go? Are you planning a stay there? As you don't know it's a sham there.

If the news media is reporting the wait in ER is only half an hour, would it make it any better for anyone to rush over there?



> No COVID19 and the flu are distinct viruses, with different symptoms and risk profiles.
> Why would you think that they're the same?


 ... why are they different when the tune coming from the likes of you - particularly from our fake CMO's message in the summer is "everything is back to normal. Masks are not mandatory. Being Covid positive is okay for school and work attendance. Besides, everybody got Covid by now with mild symptoms. " That's like telling the public - what's Covid? Your imagination.


----------



## sags

Reports of 300 kids in the pediatric ER at Sickkids Hospital in Toronto.

It was described as”chaos” and it has just begun.

The official numbers haven’t been accurate since the Ford government took over control of the data.


----------



## sags

I got an email from the top doc saying it was urgent I get the vaccine immediately.

They dropped the restrictions and put everyone at risk and are in full panic mode now with 3 highly infectious viruses circulating.

The schools will be a disaster zone.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> They dropped the restrictions and put everyone at risk and are in full panic mode now with 3 highly infectious viruses circulating.
> 
> The schools will be a disaster zone.


No need to panic. There are 3 infectious diseases the doctors are worried about: Covid, Influenza, and RSV.

Covid, at least what's circulating at the moment, is not too harmful as long as people are vaccinated (within the last 6 months), and we just pray that new variants don't arrive too soon. It's true that it's a greater danger to the elderly though. You should be in good shape if you have the bivalent shot.

Influenza, get vaccinated, and it's the standard flu risk we've always faced so at least this isn't new.

RSV is a current outbreak among school children. It's actually one of the standard cold viruses, it's currently hospitalizing more than the usual number of children, but from what I heard this outbreak is expected to alleviate within the next few months.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Reports of 300 kids in the pediatric ER at Sickkids Hospital in Toronto.
> 
> It was described as”chaos” and it has just begun.
> 
> The official numbers haven’t been accurate since the Ford government took over control of the data.


Now you have to deal with people splitting hairs saying "they just have respiraritory illness, not COVID, so it's okay"


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> No need to panic. There are 3 infectious diseases the doctors are worried about: Covid, Influenza, and RSV.


Not yet, but if the hospitals are overloaded, we have a problem.


----------



## MrMatt

MrMatt said:


> No COVID19 and the flu are distinct viruses, with different symptoms and risk profiles.
> Why would you think that they're the same?





Beaver101 said:


> ... why are they different when the tune coming from the likes of you - particularly from our fake CMO's message in the summer is "everything is back to normal. Masks are not mandatory. Being Covid positive is okay for school and work attendance. Besides, everybody got Covid by now with mild symptoms. " That's like telling the public - what's Covid? Your imagination.


Huh?
They're different, because they're literally not the same virus. It's like "whats the difference between a cat and a sea turtle", well they're different animals for one.

Also "the likes of you", what do you mean by that?
Following it up with a number of statements, several of which I disagree with is actually quite confusing.
If you actually look back, I thought it was ridiculous and unacceptable to be going out in public if you were COVID positive.

I'd suggest you are attempting to misclassify me, as you're ascribing views I've explicity opposed. You even quote my opposition.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Reports of 300 kids in the pediatric ER at Sickkids Hospital in Toronto.
> 
> It was described as”chaos” and it has just begun.
> 
> The official numbers haven’t been accurate since the Ford government took over control of the data.


 ... I haven't read the headlines yesterday but then alarmists are getting (or eventually fully) de-sensitized by these health situations. Thanks to you know who in Ontario, top (fake) CMO.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Huh?
> They're different, because they're literally not the same virus. It's like "whats the difference between a cat and a sea turtle", well they're different animals for one.
> 
> Also "the likes of you", what do you mean by that?
> Following it up with a number of statements, several of which I disagree with is actually quite confusing.
> If you actually look back, I thought it was ridiculous and unacceptable to be going out in public if you were COVID positive.
> 
> I'd suggest you are attempting to misclassify me, as you're ascribing views I've explicity opposed. You even quote my opposition.


 ... obfuscation ... of which I'm learning from you.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... obfuscation ... of which I'm learning from you.


Ahh, so you're not discussing in good faith. Got it.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Ahh, so you're not discussing in good faith. Got it.


 ... hey, I'm learning same from you. Got it?

Btw, was I not on your Ignore List?


----------



## sags

If things get bad I am going to live in the Metaverse.


----------



## TomB16

sags said:


> They dropped the restrictions and put everyone at risk and are in full panic mode now with 3 highly infectious viruses circulating.


I have had COVID twice with certainly, and possibly two other times. That puts me at far, far less risk than people who have never had it.

I will get the new varieties also, as they have immune escape. When this happens, I will survive them, too.

The lethality is way down. It would be interesting if someone were to do an objective study of the lowered death rate to see if they can discern what portion of that is due to herd immunity and what portion is due to the most vulnerable people already having been taken out by previous strains.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> I have had COVID twice with certainly, and possibly two other times. That puts me at far, far less risk than people who have never had it.


Maybe less risk of a new acute illness but your body has likely taken quite a beating from multiple re-infections. If I were you, I'd be very careful about my heart health... make sure you're eating healthy stuff, absolutely do not smoke, and keep an eye on any signs of heart issues (such as easy fatigue or pulse irregularities).

Studies have shown that COVID infections can increase the danger of cardiac problems. You may be at elevated danger of cardiac events. The disease is too new for us to have a good grasp on this.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> If things get bad I am going to live in the Metaverse.


 ... first, how bad? Second, which one of them Metaverse? Hope it ain't FakeBook. LMAO.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> Studies have shown that COVID infections can increase the danger of cardiac problems. You may be at elevated danger of cardiac events. The disease is too new for us to have a good grasp on this.


For sure. Are you recommending against contracting COVID?


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> For sure. Are you recommending against contracting COVID?


Well sure, be careful about catching it, but I mean aside from that: try to protect your heart.

For example avoid weight gain, avoid smoking, avoid other extra stresses on your heart. Your heart may be more vulnerable after the (re)infections. I'm doing the same. Just because I've caught COVID before doesn't mean it's clear sailing going forward.


----------



## TomB16

I was trying to quit smoking but then I started hanging out with Beaver. Now I'm up to three packs per day and 30mg of fentanyl.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Are you saying you need some help? For you from me, it's ALL free - advice, et al. [I normally charge by the hour for dispensing in case you didn't know.]


----------



## cainvest

TomB16 said:


> I was trying to quit smoking but then I started hanging out with Beaver.


Don't think he's talking about rubbing two dam sticks together!


----------



## TomB16

There is an interesting story developing in the UK. I probably shouldn't mention it, as it's early, but I enjoy being attacked so here it is...

There is strong evidence the UK based their first response on a flawed death rate estimates. They appear to have confused case death rate with infection death rate. The point being, cases were the worst infections with an arbitrarily high death rate. There were a lot of mild infections which were never presented to the healthcare system.

They estimated 0.9% death rate from COVID back in 2020 but it was much lower than that, even back in the early days.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> There is an interesting story developing in the UK. I probably shouldn't mention it, as it's early, but I enjoy being attacked so here it is...
> 
> There is strong evidence the UK based their first response on a flawed death rate estimates. They appear to have confused case death rate with infection death rate. The point being, cases were the worst infections with an arbitrarily high death rate. There were a lot of mild infections which were never presented to the healthcare system.
> 
> They estimated 0.9% death rate from COVID back in 2020 but it was much lower than that, even back in the early days.


 ... I gather you're not convinced of the number of deaths worldwide back in 2020 because you haven't seen the mass graves over at Hart's Island or had your eyes closed on reading about the stench being emitted from the rotting Covid-infected corpses coming out from the dump truck/vans parked on some NYC street.


----------



## TomB16

Beaver101 said:


> ... I gather you're not convinced of the number of deaths worldwide back in 2020 because you haven't seen the mass graves over at Hart's Island or had your eyes closed on reading about the stench being emitted from the rotting Covid-infected corpses coming out from the dump truck/vans parked on some NYC street.


Keep on trying, Beaver.









PolitiFact - Fact-checking posts about mass graves in NYC


Harrowing images of wooden caskets being lowered into mass graves in New York City circulated on social media as the cit




www.politifact.com


----------



## HappilyRetired

TomB16 said:


> Keep on trying, Beaver.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PolitiFact - Fact-checking posts about mass graves in NYC
> 
> 
> Harrowing images of wooden caskets being lowered into mass graves in New York City circulated on social media as the cit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politifact.com


Is Beaver still pushing the mass grave lie? If Beaver had a Paypal account they would be fined $2500 US for each and every occurrence of misinformation.


----------



## zinfit

sags said:


> If things get bad I am going to live in the Metaverse.


you mean you crawl ut from under your bed?


----------



## damian13ster

TomB16 said:


> There is an interesting story developing in the UK. I probably shouldn't mention it, as it's early, but I enjoy being attacked so here it is...
> 
> There is strong evidence the UK based their first response on a flawed death rate estimates. They appear to have confused case death rate with infection death rate. The point being, cases were the worst infections with an arbitrarily high death rate. There were a lot of mild infections which were never presented to the healthcare system.
> 
> They estimated 0.9% death rate from COVID back in 2020 but it was much lower than that, even back in the early days.


It is really not news. UK was quite transparent that their death numbers include whoever tested positive for covid in past 28 days, regardless of the actual cause of death. If you were murdered or ran over by a car but tested positive in past 28 days, you were included in the statistics.

At least they made that knowledge public early


----------



## sags

Yea.....a lot of extra people had fatal accidents all at the exact same time as covid hit.


----------



## sags

Hospitalizations and deaths from covid are the highest since last February in Ontario.

_Ontario is reporting *121 new COVID-19 deaths and 1,921 hospitalizations over the past seven days* — the highest reported hospitalization rate since February. _



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-ontario-oct-27-2022-1.6631924


----------



## sags

The wastewater in our city shows a high concentration of covid and the new variant is here.

When severely sick people start spilling out in to the streets around the hospitals, the government will have no choice but to act.

Lockdowns and restrictions are inevitable. Stock up and be prepared to wait it out until spring.

Covid isn't done yet.


----------



## cainvest

sags said:


> The wastewater in our city shows a high concentration of covid and the new variant is here.


Maybe the new variant just causes people to go to the bathroom more ...


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> The wastewater in our city shows a high concentration of covid and the new variant is here.


Which new variant have they detected where you live?

Levels in BC wastewater are holding steady (no uptrend yet). But this is the normal pattern we've seen before: the new wave starts out east (and northeast US), then spreads towards the west.


----------



## sags

It is the BA 5 variant, which is the worst variant.

It evades immunity, causes severe symptoms, and is highly transmissible.

It is causing a lot of reinfections, which seem to get worse each time.

I think the writing is already on the wall for a return to restrictions and lockdowns, as without any controls it will just keep spreading and reinfecting.

We know what we need to do but don’t want to do it. If the situation gets bad enough attitudes will quickly change.

When it involves people’s kids they get very angry and demand the government “do something”.

Our pediatric healthcare is already over capacity.

The schools will likely close before Christmas.

It is one of the few things they can do.


----------



## TomB16

Sags, did you just binge watch the Mad Max quadrilogy?

How is your wife doing? Has she fully recovered from her infection? Is her heart OK?


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> It is the BA 5 variant, which is the worst variant.
> 
> It evades immunity, causes severe symptoms, and is highly transmissible.
> 
> It is causing a lot of reinfections, which seem to get worse each time.


BA.5 has been circulating for a while in Canada, this isn't new. I think BA.2 and BA.5 have been the dominant strains in Canada for many months. Yes it does evade immunity somewhat but it's also a pretty mild one.

The bivalent vaccine available in Canada does have some effectiveness against BA.5 and will probably reduce the severity of the illness, if you get sick at all.

Hell, I'd be happy if we got stuck with BA.5 for years to come. I'm much more concerned about new variants that come after this one.


----------



## sags

New variants are already spreading around the world and now in the US.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Keep on trying, Beaver.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PolitiFact - Fact-checking posts about mass graves in NYC
> 
> 
> Harrowing images of wooden caskets being lowered into mass graves in New York City circulated on social media as the cit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politifact.com


 ... oh gawd, I thought you would do better for someone who supposedly follows "the science" but instead you quote from a "politifact" site (which says enough as a time waster). 

Why don't you ask the Italians (you know the citizens of Italy, not those from your town) what their death stats were back in 2020, if the North American ones don't satisfy you?


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Is Beaver still pushing the mass grave lie? If Beaver had a Paypal account they would be fined $2500 US for each and every occurrence of misinformation.


 ... I don't have a PayPal account for you to hack. 

HR's mantra(s): 
1. MAGA!!!!
2. I'm getting off this site. But wait I'm back!!!!
3. You're on my Ignore List. But wait, that was a pretend list!!!! 

^ Says the Emperor Troll aka the King of Liars on this site.


----------



## Beaver101

Hey Tom, your B4 and B5 buddies are becoming old news. The B(B)Q variants are becoming in vogue now.

New BQ.1 and BQ.1.1 Omicron subvariants growing twice as fast as BA.5 in Ontario: PHO

It would least surprise me when the fake CMO (decides to) rear his head and reminds "this adviser" of the Science Table that "he is an "ex" aka "former" adviser" so he can keep his yap about masks, et al. Covid is his delusion. The public in Ontario is hallucinating as with the doctors and nurses in all them hospitals, including the kiddies' one.

Only father Ford and his minion health minister clearly knows what they're doing or working extremely hard on - appealing to testify.


----------



## james4beach

As reported here, COVID-related hospitalizations in the country are higher this October than either of the previous years.

Current hospitalizations are about 2x that of last October and almost 4x that of 2020.

It can be seen under the "Hospital use" section at the government stats


----------



## sags

I finally got a covid bivarient booster (4th shot) and a high test flu shot yesterday. I booked an appointment at Gary's No Frills store......LOL.

No problems. I was the only one there and arrived early with the papers already filled out and was done with the shots in a minute....but had to walk around the store for 15 minutes.

Arms and shoulders sore today but that is about it so far. As a bonus, i tend to have a lot of inflammation and sore joints.......and the covid vaccines seem to help that quite a bit.

I don't know if that is possible (according to the science, but it seems to work for me)

I noticed while there that some of the cold and flu medicine shelves were sparse and there was a steady stream of people picking up what was left.

I also noticed the bounty of food we have in this country. In this one small store alone........shelves are overflowing with food of all kinds.

It has been awhile since I went grocery shopping (over 2 years), and it just reminded me of how blessed we are in Canada.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> I noticed while there that some of the cold and flu medicine shelves were sparse and there was a steady stream of people picking up what was left.


 ... has been like this in Toronto for a couple of weeks now. One large chain is restricting purchase of "1 bottle of Tylenol when they're restocked" due to "unusually" high demand.

I wouldn't be surprised adults are buying them to dilute for their kids since the kiddies' cough, flu meds, et al have been bared the previous weeks to this.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> As reported here, COVID-related hospitalizations in the country are higher this October than either of the previous years.
> 
> Current hospitalizations are about 2x that of last October and almost 4x that of 2020.
> 
> It can be seen under the "Hospital use" section at the government stats


 ... while I appreciate J4B's reporting here. But then I wonder why do we need "Public Health" officials nowadays? Especially having to pay for them to be invisible? What do they do all day other than hiding in their (home) office? Working hard on Zoom????? I really wonder.


----------



## londoncalling

I have no idea the variant for which I tested positive today. Thought I picked up a cold that was going through the household but turns out that is not the case. So far a sore throat is the only symptom.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... while I appreciate J4B's reporting here. But then I wonder why do we need "Public Health" officials nowadays? Especially having to pay for them to be invisible? What do they do all day other than hiding in their (home) office? Working hard on Zoom????? I really wonder.


Well the story is in the media. It's not an invisible story, the journalists are reporting this stuff. I just went to news.google.ca and did a search for Ontario COVID.

I do agree that the public health officials should be more forceful, especially with the message to wear masks. I think they got the incorrect idea that most people refuse to wear masks, but I don't think that's really the case.

I've been sharing this warning for about a year now. If Public Health just meekly sits by and lets this wave get to the exponential growth, masks are going to be mandatory in the end anyway --- unless you want the hospitals to stop serving people.


----------



## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> I have no idea the variant for which I tested positive today. Thought I picked up a cold that was going through the household but turns out that is not the case. So far a sore throat is the only symptom.


You tested positive on the rapid test?

Here's my strong advice: stop doing everything, just rest / nap / drink tea and get lots of fluids through your body. When I had my initial symptoms, I thought it was nothing and kept powering through my day. I think that was a big mistake. Perhaps if I had just rested, my body could have tackled the virus and recovered faster.

I don't mean to scare you, but just sharing my own case: after 3 days of very mild... almost imperceptible... cold symptoms, then it started to hit me much harder.

Again, I get the feeling I could have had an easier time with it if I dropped everything and just rested. Rest, fluids, vitamin C, vitamin D, etc.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Well the story is in the media. It's not an invisible story, the journalists are reporting this stuff. I just went to news.google.ca and did a search for Ontario COVID.
> 
> I do agree that the public health officials should be more forceful, especially with the message to wear masks. I think they got the incorrect idea that most people refuse to wear masks, but I don't think that's really the case.
> 
> I've been sharing this warning for about a year now. If Public Health just meekly sits by and lets this wave get to the exponential growth, masks are going to be mandatory in the end anyway --- unless you want the hospitals to stop serving people.


 ... exactly and I don't think they Public Health is being "meek". They're looking like being inept now or the mentality of "why work so hard" disguised as being non-alarmists. The public is relying on their expertise and right now we (as the public) is not hearing anything from them. Take Ontario for example, when was the last time our fake CMO spoke? Or is he out of the picture now? Then get off our payroll. I don't want to spend my tax dollars for someone choosing to take a vacation during business hours. If he claims he's "working hard", prove it like "have something to show for".


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> You tested positive on the rapid test?
> 
> Here's my strong advice: stop doing everything, just rest / nap / drink tea and get lots of fluids through your body. When I had my initial symptoms, I thought it was nothing and kept powering through my day. I think that was a big mistake. Perhaps if I had just rested, my body could have tackled the virus and recovered faster.
> 
> I don't mean to scare you, but just sharing my own case: after 3 days of very mild... almost imperceptible... cold symptoms, then it started to hit me much harder.
> 
> Again, I get the feeling I could have had an easier time with it if I dropped everything and just rested. Rest, fluids, vitamin C, vitamin D, etc.


 ... I don't think londoncalling has the same liberty as you do for "taking it easy". Yeah, maybe today Saturday and Sunday. But then what about next week? Back at work or call in to stay at home "sick with flu-symptoms."

Look at MrBlackHill's wife - caught between a rock and hard-place. Forced into the office to collaborate, network, etc. and be generous on "sharing" ....LMAO. Btw, 'sharing' isn't just resorted to the office - but to the public as well if she takes public transit. Not blaming her but it's what it is.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> As reported here, COVID-related hospitalizations in the country are higher this October than either of the previous years.
> 
> Current hospitalizations are about 2x that of last October and almost 4x that of 2020.
> 
> It can be seen under the "Hospital use" section at the government stats


You cherry picking data like the media outlets now? October to previous Octobers is really a meaningless stat as this isn't like an annual flu season.

Hospital use has been on a downwards trend since the peak in Jan 2022. Also note that hospital cases below 60 years old is very, very low now ... likely due to vaccinations I guess.


----------



## londoncalling

james4beach said:


> You tested positive on the rapid test?
> 
> Here's my strong advice: stop doing everything, just rest / nap / drink tea and get lots of fluids through your body. When I had my initial symptoms, I thought it was nothing and kept powering through my day. I think that was a big mistake. Perhaps if I had just rested, my body could have tackled the virus and recovered faster.
> 
> I don't mean to scare you, but just sharing my own case: after 3 days of very mild... almost imperceptible... cold symptoms, then it started to hit me much harder.
> 
> Again, I get the feeling I could have had an easier time with it if I dropped everything and just rested. Rest, fluids, vitamin C, vitamin D, etc.


Yes. Line on the rapid test was clear as can be.

Thanks for the advice. I have been on a steady diet of cold fighting regimen for a long time. lots of vitamins, garlic, fluids etc. Definitely, could use more rest. Not sure if it is a myth but I dug up a lot of homeade soups from the freezer this morning. I plan to do as little as possible this weekend and next week looks like a fairly light work week as I had put in a lot of overtime to get ahead from some scheduled time off I plan to take later this week. Just finished my 3rd glass of OJ and honey lemon tea on the docket for the afternoon. I am stubborn and avoid medication for pain and symptoms.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> You cherry picking data like the media outlets now? October to previous Octobers is really a meaningless stat as this isn't like an annual flu season.


Call it cherry picking if you want, but that article is calling it hospitalizations in the fall... meaning respiratory cold season, September onwards.

The hospital levels in this fall season (Sept, Oct) is higher than previous years. In other words, going into the worst part of winter... or that's the idea anyway.

You make a good point that hospitalizations are at least on a downtrend this year.


----------



## Money172375

I’m wondering if the mask wearing over the past 2 years has weakened our response to other coronaviruses Or RSV.

All of my friends‘ kids are sick. All testing negative for COVID. minor symptoms Though.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> I’m wondering if the mask wearing over the past 2 years has weakened our response to other coronaviruses Or RSV.
> 
> All of my friends‘ kids are sick. All testing negative for COVID. minor symptoms Though.


I heard an expert talking about this. When kids were distancing/using masks at school, they stopped spreading all kinds of colds (including RSV) among themselves.

Normally colds and RSV are constantly spreading, and kids are getting some immunity to it. Since that spread was halted, there is a cohort of kids who don't have any RSV immunity.

When everyone started mixing again, that cohort of kids was more susceptible because they didn't have prior immunity. I believe that's why there is now a surge of RSV (which is a kind of common cold). As RSV works through the kids, that will come back to normal, it's like a game of catch-up.

So it's an unfortunate collateral damage from the pandemic protections. Regular colds and RSV are mostly harmless, so it's OK to have them spreading in a population and it does produce some immunity.

But if there weren't any protective measures in schools, then Covid would have also spread unchecked, resulting in high deaths and overwhelming hospitals. A very difficult situation.


----------



## londoncalling

Beaver101 said:


> ... I don't think londoncalling has the same liberty as you do for "taking it easy". Yeah, maybe today Saturday and Sunday. But then what about next week? Back at work or call in to stay at home "sick with flu-symptoms."
> 
> Look at MrBlackHill's wife - caught between a rock and hard-place. Forced into the office to collaborate, network, etc. and be generous on "sharing" ....LMAO. Btw, 'sharing' isn't just resorted to the office - but to the public as well if she takes public transit. Not blaming her but it's what it is.


I appreciate your concern for how this may impact me @Beaver101. I am in a better situation than most. I empathize with those that have less options and fortune than I. I sympahtize with MrsBlackhill as it sounds like she wasn't given many options in her situation. 

@james4beach may be able to "take it easy" because he is self employed. However, deadlines are deadlines and some clients may or may not be understanding. There is also a financial impact no matter who you are or where you work. So far I will miss out on a personal trip that I postponed for over a year. That will come with financial cost even if I can recoup some of the expenditures. This is indeed a first world problem. Not sure how it will play out. 

The current company policy is outdated and somewhat contradictory. I would prefer to work(from home) if I am feeling like I do now but that may or may not be a choice. Although I could have picked this up from a lot of places (public restroom, the office, kid's school) I am grateful that I am experiencing mild symptoms thus far. I have taken 3 jabs to date but the last was 10 months ago. I have also increased my exposure to the number of people I see in a given week between work and kids activities. I expected to get it at some point and I am sure there is never a convenient time to catch a virus.


----------



## TomB16

There is some interesting numbers coming out of Zoe Data, this week. It appears people who have been vaccinated have a slightly higher chance of contracting COVID after the efficacy of the vaccine runs out than people who have never been vaccinated.

They also have done some good work on how symptoms differ for people with COVID, due to vaccination status.


----------



## Beaver101

londoncalling said:


> I appreciate your concern for how this may impact me @Beaver101. I am in a better situation than most. I empathize with those that have less options and fortune than I. I sympahtize with MrsBlackhill as it sounds like she wasn't given many options in her situation.
> 
> @james4beach may be able to "take it easy" because he is self employed. * However, deadlines are deadlines and some clients may or may not be understanding*. *There is also a financial impact no matter who you are or where you work. So far I will miss out on a personal trip that I postponed for over a year. That will come with financial cost even if I can recoup some of the expenditures. *This is indeed a first world problem. Not sure how it will play out.


 ...well there you go regardless of whether you're self-employed or employed by someone else, or unemployed. The virus wouldn't care what your financial status is as long as we humans as hosts continue to freely share it.



> The current company policy is outdated and somewhat contradictory. I would prefer to work(from home) if I am feeling like I do now but that may or may not be a choice. Although I could have picked this up from a lot of places (public restroom, the office, kid's school) I am grateful that I am experiencing mild symptoms thus far. I have taken 3 jabs to date but the last was 10 months ago. I have also increased my exposure to the number of people I see in a given week between work and kids activities. I expected to get it at some point and I am sure there is never a convenient time to catch a virus.


 .. totally agree that it's "never" a convenient time to catch a virus or be sick. But I'm very, very surprised that your company's policy (as with MsBlackHill's which I can presume is the same) is "outdated" and even (somewhat) contradictory? I would at least expect it to have a "sick day" policy in place first, and "now" clearly spelled out "after 3 years of a pandemic". So what happens if we have another one (a pandemic)? Or all of a sudden a surge or even another kind of infectious disease? Tell me the experts in your company are saying it won't happen (again)? 

First question, I would ask as any "prudent employee" (never mind boss) "is there a contingency plan"? Or is it the usual "we'll worry about it when it happens"? And I don't suppose you work for a momma and poppa company to have the kind of company policy you outlined above?


----------



## londoncalling

Our employer provides excellent benefits to its workforce including paid sick leave. I know that I won't be going to the office tomorrow as well as the rest of the week. I am hopeful that I can work from home as I know I will still be receiving calls, texts and emails. I also believe I can manage the workload and would prefer to work from home if allowed. I would prefer that to coming back a week behind. What I would dread is being told to stay home for the week and go see a doctor to provide a medical certificate. This is something that can be asked (and understandably so). It doesn't make sense to send a covid positive person out into the world to sit with other sick people to get a piece of paper. Unfortunately, there are people that would use illness for a week off and as a result companies have implemented these costly and burdensome policies in the workplace. My employer treats its employees well even though it is hampered by having a large number of staff. In my previous job, I was salaried, so was expected to be available around the clock. So far the symptoms are similar to that of a cold. Blood-oxygen reading last night was in the normal range (95-100).


----------



## Beaver101

londoncalling said:


> Our employer provides excellent benefits to its workforce including paid sick leave. I know that I won't be going to the office tomorrow as well as the rest of the week. I am hopeful that I can work from home as I know I will still be receiving calls, texts and emails. I also believe I can manage the workload and would prefer to work from home if allowed. I would prefer that to coming back a week behind. * What I would dread is being told to stay home for the week and go see a doctor to provide a medical certificate. This is something that can be asked (and understandably so). * It doesn't make sense to send a covid positive person out into the world to sit with other sick people to get a piece of paper. Unfortunately, there are people that would use illness for a week off and as a result companies have implemented these costly and burdensome policies in the workplace. My employer treats its employees well even though it is hampered by having a large number of staff. In my previous job, I was salaried, so was expected to be available around the clock. *So far the symptoms are similar to that of a cold. Blood-oxygen reading last night was in the normal range (95-100).*


 ... so bottomline is your employer expect you back at work regardless you got Covid or not, right? And that means anyone with "flu-like" symptoms are expected back, no?


----------



## Spudd

TomB16 said:


> There is some interesting numbers coming out of Zoe Data, this week. It appears people who have been vaccinated have a slightly higher chance of contracting COVID after the efficacy of the vaccine runs out than people who have never been vaccinated.
> 
> They also have done some good work on how symptoms differ for people with COVID, due to vaccination status.


Do you have a link to that? I poked around their website a bit and couldn't find anything.


----------



## londoncalling

Beaver101 said:


> ... so bottomline is your employer expect you back at work regardless you got Covid or not, right? And that means anyone with "flu-like" symptoms are expected back, no?


Not at all. There will likely be 2 options for me to choose from. 

Use my sick leave for the time away from work 
Work from home if feeling capable and use any sick leave for hours missed. 

I would prefer to keep working as I feel I am capable, so I proposed the second option. I believe it has been afforded to others in the past. I would also like to preserve my sick leave for a time when I am too sick to perform my duties. Again, I feel fortunate as many out there are not afforded this flexibility nor can they afford to miss work. I sympathize with management in having had to navigate through the pandemic. Too stringent and they are seen as uncaring. Too lax and they are viewed as reckless. Sadly, each employee gets to decide where along the spectrum that policy falls. It's a can't win scenario for employees and employers.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Spudd said:


> Do you have a link to that? I poked around their website a bit and couldn't find anything.


I'm sure the mainstream media will investigate fully 😁


----------



## TomB16

Spudd said:


> Do you have a link to that? I poked around their website a bit and couldn't find anything.


Sure.

Here is the graphic that shows this phenomenon. It's from the ONS site but I first saw this graphic presented by Professor Tim Spector (Zoe founder) a while ago and I know ONS uses Zoe data so I'm reasonably confident Zoe is the source.

Notice the "same" line is for people who have had their *third* vaccine within 14-89 days. In other words, in the vaccine efficacy period. Look at lines 4 and 5. It will be interesting to see if immunity gets even worse after the fourth dose.












Coronavirus (COVID-19) latest insights - Office for National Statistics


----------



## Beaver101

Not sure this deserves its own thread or belongs to the class-action one. But as it was due to Covid, here it is. 

TD Insurance agrees to settle lawsuit over pandemic travel claims



> ... _In order to qualify for the compensation, TD customers must have submitted a claim for trip cancellation and been fully or partially denied due to receiving trip vouchers, coupons or credits from airlines, hotels or any other travel groups in lieu of refunds.
> ...
> Now, TD is offering reimbursement to three different groups of travellers.
> 
> The first group includes any traveller who had a claim related to an amount paid to Air Canada, Air France, Air Transat, British Airways, Emirates, Porter, Ryanair, Sunwing, Swoop, United Airlines and WestJet. These airlines had changed their policies after the class action was filed and made cash refunds available for certain periods. (The periods that were refunded vary by each airline.)* Despite being reimbursed by airlines, TD Insurance will pay out $100 a claim.*
> 
> The settlement will also pay out TD Insurance clients who had been reimbursed by an airline, but had received a credit or voucher for another expense they tried to claim under their TD policy – such as a cruise or Airbnb. *They will receive both the $100 reimbursement and approximately 40 per cent of the value of the claim that was denied.*_


 ... anyhow, gist of it as per above.


----------



## damian13ster

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/children-hospital-emergency-visits-admissions-respiratory-1.6638180



"At the same time, we've come through two years of relatively protected environments for young children, so their immunity isn't quite where it was." 


Who could have seen it coming....... the children will be paying for the lockdowns for the rest of their lives


----------



## Birder

Sounds like quite the catch-22. Wear masks to prevent spread and limit exposure to viruses. Wear masks and limit your immune system's experience with respiratory viruses and ability to respond.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Birder said:


> Sounds like quite the catch-22. Wear masks to prevent spread and limit exposure to viruses. Wear masks and limit your immune system's experience with respiratory viruses and ability to respond.


Millions of children's immune systems were compromised for a virus with a 99.995% survival rate.


----------



## andrewf

Birder said:


> Sounds like quite the catch-22. Wear masks to prevent spread and limit exposure to viruses. Wear masks and limit your immune system's experience with respiratory viruses and ability to respond.


Sounds like you think people would be better off licking subway railings.

I don't think anyone is recommending perfect isolation (bubble boy).


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/children-hospital-emergency-visits-admissions-respiratory-1.6638180
> 
> 
> 
> "At the same time, we've come through two years of relatively protected environments for young children, so their immunity isn't quite where it was."
> 
> 
> Who could have seen it coming....... the children will be paying for the lockdowns for the rest of their lives


 +


HappilyRetired said:


> Millions of children's immune systems were compromised for a virus with a 99.995% survival rate.


 ... don't forget any functioning of the immune systems came from the heads which mean 99.995% of these kids had "mental issues" simultaneously and yet they had no problem playing on their iphones with Poké Go (old), Squid games, or <insert hyped BS Game of the Month here>, etc. Why's that?


----------



## james4beach

Birder said:


> Sounds like quite the catch-22. Wear masks to prevent spread and limit exposure to viruses. Wear masks and limit your immune system's experience with respiratory viruses and ability to respond.


The problem is that the story with these viruses is very different, but unfortunately they all circulate the same way. It's a really difficult scenario. Standard colds / RSV and influenza are mostly OK to catch, except during peak flu season when the flu actually does kill a lot of people.

Covid (even omicron) re-infects people and as far as we know, is still associated with some severe consequences including organ damage and even heart attacks. So it's still not a good idea to just go out and catch it.

I think at this point, the most rational thing to do is to make sure you're vaccinated and boosted (so you have fresh antibodies), wear a mask in very high-risk crowded settings, but otherwise don't worry too much about masks in personal settings, family, small groups of friends. And that really aligns perfectly with current government policies and guidelines as well... with the one exception that IMO they should require masks on public transit and airplanes.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Keep getting your shots as soon as they rush them out James. Maybe the 16th one will finally work.


----------



## james4beach

HappilyRetired said:


> Keep getting your shots as soon as they rush them out James. Maybe the 16th one will finally work.


I get my shots much later than most other people, deliberately dragging it out. I got my 3rd shot about 8 months later than most people.

People are now getting their 4th shots, but I don't plan to get another shot for a year. Basically, I am spacing out the shots to mitigate the dangerous side effects (severe inflammation).

*Protection either from a vaccine or natural covid infection lasts anywhere from 4 to 12 months*. I'm aiming for the longer date, trying to get my shots 12 months apart. I still am convinced the vaccine is useful, and I'm gambling by stretching this out... but I think doing 12 month spacing between shots isn't too crazy an idea for a healthy youngish person.


----------



## sags

Some people have their 5th shots.

Peter Mansbridge did and he also got Covid but the symptoms were mild.

He talks to virus experts every week on his podcast, so I think he knows the situation better than most.

If it is safe enough for him ….


----------



## sags

I got my 4th and felt sore for a couple of days. 

Then I felt fantastic…. no arthritis pain or inflammation.

The vaccines are ninja warriors.


----------



## HappilyRetired

One can always get a shot at some point, but you can't reverse a shot and some people are finding that out the hard way...like my nephew who now has myocarditis in his early 20's. We will never get another shot from those criminals.

People need to be jailed but the government gave them full and total immunity.


----------



## londoncalling

james4beach said:


> I get my shots much later than most other people, deliberately dragging it out. I got my 3rd shot about 8 months later than most people.
> 
> People are now getting their 4th shots, but I don't plan to get another shot for a year. Basically, I am spacing out the shots to mitigate the dangerous side effects (severe inflammation).
> 
> *Protection either from a vaccine or natural covid infection lasts anywhere from 4 to 12 months*. I'm aiming for the longer date, trying to get my shots 12 months apart. I still am convinced the vaccine is useful, and I'm gambling by stretching this out... but I think doing 12 month spacing between shots isn't too crazy an idea for a healthy youngish person.


As you recently had Covid does this mean you will be waiting 12 months since covid exposure or your last booster?
My workplace recently had a flu/covid booster clinic in recent weeks. I opted to delay based on the lack of information on how it worked against current variants. Not sure that if I had gotten boosted that I would have not caught the virus in the past week, become an asymptomatic carrier, or caught the virus with the same effects. At this point it doesn't matter. The entire household is now positive, and we are self-isolating. I am not sure if I am like most people but many I talk to are apathetic because of the duration of covid and the mass amount of conflicting data that they have gotten numb to it all. I


----------



## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> As you recently had Covid does this mean you will be waiting 12 months since covid exposure or your last booster?


In my view, being sick (natural infection) is about equivalent to having a booster. Both will produce antibodies. So I had a natural infection, which in my eyes, counts the same a booster.

I plan to wait 12 months since my sickness. But the time of year factors into this as well. I like the sound of 12 months because that would mean my next shot is Sept/Oct, entering winter again.

Note -- I did the rapid tests, which all tested positive, so I know for sure I caught covid (not guessing that I had it).



londoncalling said:


> My workplace recently had a flu/covid booster clinic in recent weeks. I opted to delay based on the lack of information on how it worked against current variants. Not sure that if I had gotten boosted that I would have not caught the virus in the past week,


It takes 3 to 4 weeks for the booster to take full effect (antibodies to build up). I know in some places they say '2 weeks' but it's more like a curve, and maximum antibodies take closer to 4 weeks. So you'd have to look at the dates but I'm guessing that booster would not have prevented you from getting sick.

It probably would reduce the severity and duration of illness though.

How many days have you been sick, and how are you feeling now?


----------



## andrewf

I'm currently going through my second round of COVID since my last booster in January. 🙃


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> I'm currently going through my second round of COVID since my last booster in January. 🙃


Sorry to hear that. How does the severity compare to your first Covid sickness?

Also, how many months has it been since your previous infection?


----------



## Beaver101

^ Won't be andrewf's last dealing with Covid (and londoncalling's). And don't forget the "annual flu" that's being "shared (and more generously so now)" all around.


----------



## sags

A recently released study reveals the bivariant booster creates much higher immunity than previous vaccines.....4X for seniors and 9X for the general population.

It also shows that people who get infected with covid and then get a booster later........will have lower immunity than those who weren't previously infected.

Basically the research shows that infection offers little or no immunity, and reduces the effectiveness of vaccines.

It also shows there is some consequence to infections and re-infections, even if the symptoms are mild.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> Sorry to hear that. How does the severity compare to your first Covid sickness?
> 
> Also, how many months has it been since your previous infection?


Symptoms are milder than last time. Usual cold symptoms (headache, cough, congestion, fever, muscle soreness). A bit of the Covid 'lung pain'. Drugs help! I don't really recall if 'lung pain' was common for me with other colds. I haven't had a regular cold in several years now (2018?)

My first infection was March-ish, so right around 6 months. So much for COVID giving you lasting immunity .


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Symptoms are milder than last time. Usual cold symptoms (headache, cough, congestion, fever, muscle soreness). A bit of the Covid 'lung pain'. Drugs help! I don't really recall if 'lung pain' was common for me with other colds. I haven't had a regular cold in several years now (2018?)
> 
> My first infection was March-ish, so right around 6 months. So much for COVID giving you lasting immunity .


Thanks for sharing this. I'm really glad to hear it was milder than your last one.

Interesting, 6 months. Well the vaccines don't do any better than that either.

Hope you feel better soon.


----------



## londoncalling

@andrewf sorry to hear you got a second case in such a short time frame but glad that the symptoms are mild. I also don't get catch a cold or flu very often. Last flew I had was over 10 years ago and I get a cold every other year. Of those every third one actually takes me down for a couple days. I am on day 6 @james4beach. Here has been my experience thus far

Day 1 sore throat
Day 2 runny nose
Day 3 tired 
Day 4 runny nose, slight headache
Day 5 runny nose, mild cough
Day 6 runny nose, ticklish throat.

I tested again today and the line shows I am just as positive as I was on Day 1. I did not run a fever the whole time and my blood oxygen has been constant. Son is on day 4 and for the past 2 days his throat is so sore he has opted not to talk. He had a slight fever but nothing to worry about. Mrs. is on day two and she is faring worse than the boy and I so far. She can't stop coughing, has been sleeping a lot, has body aches, and can't stay warm. Our experience does not negate that for some this has been fatal. As such our house has been under isolation for almost a week. I am hoping for a negative result by Sunday so I can get back to the office as well as go get some groceries. We have lots to eat but are running low on produce and dairy.


----------



## sags

Gosh man… that is a lot to deal with.

Glad to hear everyone is holding up.


----------



## sags

I am fully vaxxed but remain very cautious.

I have been in hospital so many times in the past 10 years that nurses can’t get an iv started without trying all over.

Last time they gave up and said we will do it if we need to.

They say the veins are there and look good and then run away when they see the nurse.


----------



## andrewf

londoncalling said:


> I am hoping for a negative result by Sunday so I can get back to the office as well as go get some groceries. We have lots to eat but are running low on produce and dairy.


The rapid tests don't really work this way. You can still test positive on the rapid test despite no longer having an active infection. And a negative test doesn't mean you're in the clear. The guidance in Ontario is self-isolate for 5 days from first symptoms, then for 5 days in public must wear a mask etc. So if you're 5 days in and your symptoms have been improving, you can go get groceries now, with a mask. I would maybe suggest holding off on the office if you can work remotely, as the guidance is to wear a mask for the whole day you're at the office.

I think the thought process is that you are shedding the most virus in the first 5 days of infection and even with a mask you're likely to infect others. Then 5-10 days you're shedding much less virus but enough that you could infect others so you should wear a mask to reduce the risk to others.


----------



## londoncalling

sags said:


> Gosh man… that is a lot to deal with.
> 
> Glad to hear everyone is holding up.


thanks Sags. it's really not that bad. I equate it to being snowed in for a week with less snow to shovel.


----------



## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> I tested again today and the line shows I am just as positive as I was on Day 1


Beware that it can take a while to test negative. The test does not only pick up the live virus. It can also show positive with dead or mangled viruses (the viruses that you immune system has kicked the crap out of).

So just because you're positive, does not necessarily mean you are infectious. It's really hard to calibrate this though.

Let's say you start going out into public again 10 days after the fever is over. I see now that @andrewf mentioned 5 days, but I thought CDC guidance was initially 10 days after the fever ends. Wear a mask around other people, just in case you're still infectious and keep wearing a mask for a good while... maybe until 14 days past.

You can't harm anyone by wearing a mask around them, but you can definitely avoid infecting others.



andrewf said:


> Then 5-10 days you're shedding much less virus but enough that you could infect others so you should wear a mask to reduce the risk to others.


Like everything in nature, it's going to be a curve. Some people will still be infectious at 10 or even 14 days, so ultimately it's about probabilities. I kept wearing a mask around everyone else up to 14 days after I was sick.


----------



## londoncalling

andrewf said:


> The rapid tests don't really work this way. You can still test positive on the rapid test despite no longer having an active infection. And a negative test doesn't mean you're in the clear. The guidance in Ontario is self-isolate for 5 days from first symptoms, then for 5 days in public must wear a mask etc. So if you're 5 days in and your symptoms have been improving, you can go get groceries now, with a mask. I would maybe suggest holding off on the office if you can work remotely, as the guidance is to wear a mask for the whole day you're at the office.


So I have learned. The test was mainly out of curiosity. I ahve hear you can still test positive for weeks following a positive test.

the guidance in my province is very similar

*"Anyone who tests positive for COVID-19 should self-isolate immediately*_ at home or in another suitable environment, regardless of your vaccination status. It is recommended that you self-isolate for five days from the date of test or 24 hours since any fever has resolved without the aid of fever-reducing medications and all other symptoms are improving for at least 48 hours, whichever is later.

Up to 10 days after testing positive, continue to reduce exposures to others by distancing, wearing a mask, practicing respiratory etiquette and hand hygiene and limiting contacts especially with people at high risk for severe disease (older, immune compromised, etc.) and settings with people at high risk such as visiting long term care._"

I will go out tomorrow or place a grocery order for delivery. I just would prefer to avoid having to deal with the looks of letting out a sneeze or cough while out and about. Am hoping to be near symptom free by Monday. Our work policy says negative test or symptom free. Employer has been good with allowing work from home. I used some accrued leave this week for some shorter days which was nice.

I will definitely mask up in public for the next week or so.


----------



## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> thanks Sags. it's really not that bad. I equate it to being snowed in for a week with less snow to shovel.


Glad to hear it's not so bad. Yours sounds milder than my first Covid... so I hope my next one is more like your milder case. But I'm pretty scared about catching it again, this was not pleasant for me (keeping in mind I was triple vaccinated).

I had a pretty rough fever and had about 36 to 48 hours of a *really* bad time. I was actually praying one night, and I'm not religious.



londoncalling said:


> I will go out tomorrow or place a grocery order for delivery. I just would prefer to avoid having to deal with the looks of letting out a sneeze or cough while out and about. . . . I will definitely mask up in public for the next week or so.


I wouldn't feel bad about it. If enough days have passed (as mentioned above I think 10 days is smarter) and you've got a well fitting mask on, you're probably not going to infect anyone. I'm a bit extra cautious so I wore a KN95 when out in public, that way I had no anxiety about infecting others.


----------



## andrewf

It was definitely much better this time than my previous infection. Last time I could barely take my dog for a walk around the block without getting lightheaded. I crashed for the weekend and slept most of the day. This time I have been up for a walk, maybe just not as far as I usually do. It happened during the week and I mostly worked through it. Wednesday was a low productivity day but got through a bunch of emails and minor tasks.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> It was definitely much better this time than my previous infection. Last time I could barely take my dog for a walk around the block without getting lightheaded. I crashed for the weekend and slept most of the day.


Interesting. I'm looking at my log from my first Covid... on day 12, I went for a hike and it was OK (but still weak). So even after 12 days, I was feeling significant effects. On day 17, I went for a very serious hike and my energy was 100%, with no signs of sickness other than slight nasal congestion.

But individual experiences vary so widely. Both a friend and my cousin, same ages as me, had tiredness *30 to 40 days* after being sick. And we're talking here about fully vaccinated people, in their 30s, good health.

I have informally "polled" a pretty wide range of friends who've had covid. It sounds like most had lingering symptoms and tiredness for at least 2 weeks, consistent with mine. I very rarely heard anyone say it was gone in one week.


----------



## sags

Yea , my wife still has a slight scratchy cough and it has been a couple of weeks. She never got very sick otherwise.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> I am fully vaxxed but remain very cautious.
> 
> *I have been in hospital so many times in the past 10 years that nurses can’t get an iv started without trying all over.
> 
> Last time they gave up and said we will do it if we need to.
> 
> They say the veins are there and look good and then run away when they see the nurse.*


 ... the veins in your arm where the nurse/lab tech have been used so many times that they have become (so) thin and thus difficult to detect. 

So the next area(s) they gonna to stick their IV (or draw blood easier) is where they're able to "see" one (aka a translucent area) and it's most likely in the front of either hands. And being jabbed there hurts like hell.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Yea , my wife still has a slight scratchy cough and it has been a couple of weeks. She never got very sick otherwise.


 ... have her try Ricola cough drops (abit expensive) but they "really" work (at least for me whom tried everything on the shelf!) in alleviating a sore throat plus suppressing a cough. Works better than Halls which is great stuff for a congested nose though! 

A homemade remedy of honey (+ optional lemon) drink also helps soothe the throat. [I just take/drink the honey by the tablespoons whenever my throat gets 'scratchy' which last happened several years ago. The honey in the jar is getting crystallized. But then I read (real) honey lasts forever so all is good.]


----------



## TomB16

COVID infection rates have been falling in the UK for about 3 weeks.









Latest Daily UK COVID-19 Data: Vaccines, Cases, Trends | ZOE


COVID infection & vaccination rates in the UK today, based on public data and reports from millions of users of the ZOE Health Study app




health-study.joinzoe.com






A study out of Israel shows that pericarditis and myocarditis are the same between unvaccinated people who have had COVID and unvaccinated people who have not had COVID. There is a clear increase in these two heart diseases but it does not appear to be related to COVID. This study covers 197K people.









The Incidence of Myocarditis and Pericarditis in Post COVID-19 Unvaccinated Patients-A Large Population-Based Study - PubMed


Myocarditis and pericarditis are potential post-acute cardiac sequelae of COVID-19 infection, arising from adaptive immune responses. We aimed to study the incidence of post-acute COVID-19 myocarditis and pericarditis. Retrospective cohort study of 196,992 adults after COVID-19 infection in...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Money172375

Anyone see any research or work being done on “better” vaccines? Ones that prevent infection and don’t require excessive doses?

I know coronaviruses are difficult…….but I don’t hear anything about the next phase of prevention or treatment.


----------



## TomB16

Money172375 said:


> Anyone see any research or work being done on “better” vaccines? Ones that prevent infection and don’t require excessive doses?


Why would they do that?

Yeah, that was pretty cynical.

Europe has cut a contract with Pfizer for "up to" 1.8B doses. That is more than 10 for every person in the EU. It is currently under investigation.

The contract is not publicly available, of course, so there is some speculation but there is an active investigation.



https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/european-public-prosecutors-office-confirms-ongoing-investigation-european-unions-covid-19



(BTW, that was just the first link returned by Google. There are dozens or even hundreds of articles on this. Google is your friend.)

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.


----------



## james4beach

I'm a bit concerned with all this intense focus on aggressive re-boosting. I suspect it has to do with business pressures to keep everything running. Instead of imposing restrictions like capacity limits, or shut down workplaces with outbreaks, maybe government just figures ... let's just pump everyone full of the vaccines and enjoy a regular economy.

I can imagine the Pfizer and Moderna pitch being made in a meeting with the government: "A fresh booster restores immunity, eliminating the danger of the economy slowing to a crawl, keeping GDP strong, and eliminates the need for unpopular public health directives." .... and _that's a good pitch actually._

My opinion changed a bit when one of my family members started having severe adverse reactions, which I wrote about in this post. It's a kind of muscle weakness and semi-paralysis that I suspect is similar to Guillain-Barre syndrome, a known side effect of the vaccines. It's rare, but it happens.

The Covid vaccines have been great at keeping people out of the hospital, and I'm not opposed to them (in fact I had a shot just two months ago). But it's not a good idea to keep giving people boosters every 4 months. That's kind of ridiculous.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> The Covid vaccines have been great at keeping people out of the hospital, and I'm not opposed to them (in fact I had a shot just two months ago). But it's not a good idea to keep giving people boosters every 4 months. That's kind of ridiculous.


There are saying 6 months between booster here. Of course the choice is yours to make and might even be wise to spread it out further depending on your own risk factors.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> The Covid vaccines have been great at keeping people out of the hospital, and I'm not opposed to them (in fact I had a shot just two months ago). But it's not a good idea to keep giving people boosters every 4 months. That's kind of ridiculous.


I've been saying this for 2 1/2 years 

Look at the research suggesting annual flu vaccine effectiveness might be improved by skipping the shot every few years.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Sure, sure, sure. And you would agree to bring back the masking too (if not the "lockdowns" ... aaaahhhh!!!!! ... watch the freak-out next) ... 

Hey sags, how many shots (boosters et al) have you had? Seven in these past 2 1/2 years?


----------



## Spudd

Money172375 said:


> Anyone see any research or work being done on “better” vaccines? Ones that prevent infection and don’t require excessive doses?
> 
> I know coronaviruses are difficult…….but I don’t hear anything about the next phase of prevention or treatment.


There's lots of research being done. One area of focus is nasal spray vaccines. This article says there are at least 12 in development.


https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.add9947


----------



## TomB16

I just got off a loaded 787 and there were four people wearing masks. My wife and I plus two others.

There are a few in airport terminals but they are Spartan.


----------



## andrewf

TomB16 said:


> I just got off a loaded 787 and there were four people wearing masks. My wife and I plus two others.
> 
> There are a few in airport terminals but they are Spartan.


I know people don't care about COVID anymore, but I am a bit of a convert to not getting sick unnecessarily. If I can skip a bout of cold/flu, especially when travelling, seems worth it to me.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> I just got off a loaded 787 and there were four people wearing masks. My wife and I plus two others.


Yeah it's incredible.

I totally understand not wearing a mask when comfortably in your home city, but on a crowded plane? These people could be connecting from anywhere. Pick up a new virus in Shanghai and share it with you in Toronto.

I see no reason to catch some unnecessary cold, flu, or the next "fun surprise" from Asia while flying around. I plan to wear masks on planes for the rest of my life.

Additional advantage: they discourage others from talking to you.


----------



## sags

The way we spread the virus round and round, I expect the doomsday virus will be along shortly to pay us a visit.

Will you be vaccine toned and ready ?


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> The way we spread the virus round and round, I expect the doomsday virus will be along shortly to pay us a visit.


Well for context,
MERS killed less than 1,000
SARS killed less than 1,000
Influenza kills about 500,000 per year
Covid-19 killed 6,600,000

Over two years, Covid-19 killed about 6X as many people as influenza.


----------



## TomB16

When trying to make a point, it helps to compare annual numbers to multi-year cumulative totals with no regard for trends, changing rates, or even current numbers. "Look at how this number is larger than that one, proving my point."

Danny Kruger, member of UK parliament, does a very good job shining light into the current situation. This is an 18 minute clip but well worth the time, IMO.


----------



## james4beach

Tam recommends and encourages masks. Some doctors and hospital officials are also asking provinces to make masks mandatory again.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/masks-covid-flu-rsv-1.6647388


----------



## TomB16

Denmark lifted COVID restrictions on February 1, 2022. On March 29, 2022, Denmark lifted all travel restrictions.

Experts in this thread predicted carnage and destruction, when I mentioned this at the time. Scroll back for a good laugh.

Stats from Google:


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Yeah it's incredible.
> 
> I totally understand not wearing a mask when comfortably in your home city, but on a crowded plane? These people could be connecting from anywhere. Pick up a new virus in Shanghai and share it with you in Toronto.
> 
> I see no reason to catch some unnecessary cold, flu, or the next "fun surprise" from Asia while flying around. I plan to wear masks on planes for the rest of my life.
> 
> *Additional advantage: they discourage others from talking to you.*


 ...


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Tam recommends and encourages masks. Some doctors and hospital officials are also asking provinces to make masks mandatory again.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/masks-covid-flu-rsv-1.6647388


 ... I would love to see our (Ontario's) fake CMO impose that ... return of "mandatory" masking. His expertise ... LMAO.

Aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!! ...... now watch some Ontarians on CMF freak out now.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Denmark lifted COVID restrictions on February 1, 2022. On March 29, 2022, Denmark lifted all travel restrictions.
> 
> Experts in this thread predicted carnage and destruction, when I mentioned this at the time. Scroll back for a good laugh.
> 
> Stats from Google:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 23855
> 
> 
> View attachment 23854
> 
> View attachment 23853
> 
> View attachment 23852


 ... do you study stats whilst on vacation?


----------



## damian13ster

https://www.fda.gov/media/159611/download#page=180



Within 28 days after vaccination, some respiratory tract-related infections were reported with greater frequency in the mRNA-1273 group than in the placebo group. Events of pneumonia were reported by 0.3% and 0% of mRNA-1273 and placebo recipients, respectively. Respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) infection was reported by 0.4% and <0.1% of mRNA-1273 and placebo recipients, respectively. There was no pattern concerning time to onset or dose number for these two events


----------



## TomB16

According to the WHO, COVID deaths are down 90% from February of this year. February was not the all time peak as omicron has been vastly less lethal so we are way off the all time peak.

WHO Director-General's opening remarks at the media briefing – 9 November 2022

... and yet, people in this thread continue to cite death rates that represent early COVID strains which were far more virulent.


----------



## james4beach

Really happy to see that omicron has been relatively harmless. It's awesome to see the nice side of the range of possible outcomes. Hopefully new variants coming down the road will continue to be relatively harmless.

Meanwhile, due to hospitals getting overloaded, masks are looking increasingly necessary. There may be an announcement for Ontario tomorrow, though it likely won't be mandatory masks.

But whether it's mandatory or not, the new advice from doctors seems to be this:

Everyone should wear masks in crowded public / general places ... stores, transit etc.
Kids should wear masks at school
Same goes for university students
I did some indoor business meetings in the spring and summer, but I've ended these. If I really have to go into an office or have a business meeting, I'll be wearing a mask of course.


----------



## andrewf

Fair enough. I've had COVID twice, once contracted at work for sure, the second the likeliest explanation was workplace exposure but no smoking gun.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Fair enough. I've had COVID twice, once contracted at work for sure, the second the likeliest explanation was workplace exposure but no smoking gun.


Good to know where others are picking it up. I almost certainly caught mine at a restaurant.

Though, I think the advice from doctors to wear masks has more to do with the combined covid + flu + RSV cases loading up the hospitals.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Really happy to see that omicron has been relatively harmless. It's awesome to see the nice side of the range of possible outcomes. Hopefully new variants coming down the road will continue to be relatively harmless.
> 
> Meanwhile, due to hospitals getting overloaded, masks are looking increasingly necessary. There may be an announcement for Ontario tomorrow, though it likely won't be mandatory masks.
> 
> But whether it's mandatory or not, the new advice from doctors seems to be this:
> 
> Everyone should wear masks in crowded public / general places ... stores, transit etc.
> Kids should wear masks at school
> Same goes for university students
> I did some indoor business meetings in the spring and summer, but I've ended these. If I really have to go into an office or have a business meeting, I'll be wearing a mask of course.


 ... prudent people do NOT need a top (albeit fake) medical doctor to tell them that masking after a 2+ year pandemic is a wise thing to do. Like this EFF- BOZO along with the other bozos (his boss and axx-side-kick minister-of-some-sorts):

Ontario's top doctor to recommend public to mask up amid children's hospital crisis

Seriously ...  ... who is gonna to listen to him now when the messages coming from this EFF-BOZO have been - what's Covid? What pandemic? It's just the annual flu, always been. And what's a healthcare meltdown? Really EFF-DUH with this jackaxx.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> Fair enough. I've had COVID twice, once contracted at work for sure, the second the likeliest explanation was workplace exposure but no smoking gun.


 ... and that'll not be the end of it. There'll be a 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. time. Trust me.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Good to know where others are picking it up. I almost certainly caught mine at a restaurant.
> 
> Though, I think the advice from doctors to wear masks has more to do with the combined covid + flu + RSV cases loading up the hospitals.


 ... I guess we'll find out when the BOZOs are personally impacted.

I'm waiting to see the news headline from the hospitals saying to Ford and his axx-kissing sidekicks: "_Too bad, we're out of beds for your kid(s) or grandkids or your wife, your husband, your best friend, etc._"


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Good to know where others are picking it up. I almost certainly caught mine at a restaurant.
> 
> Though, I think the advice from doctors to wear masks has more to do with the combined covid + flu + RSV cases loading up the hospitals.


I agree.
The flu/RSV & colds are really rough.
They're putting children in the adult wards & ICUs due to overcrowding. 
It's important to note that the adult wards don't have the same security for children, and it's only a matter of time before something bad happens.

Also the kids are getting very sick for extended periods, it's not normal for young healthy active kids to be sidelines for 2-3 weeks with a cold


----------



## londoncalling

I agree that is in not normal for young healthy active kids to be on the sidelines 2-3 weeks with a cold. although I don't have any data to confirm or deny, there are still a lot of absences at my kid's school. My guess is pre-pandemic, these kids would have been sent to school with a cough and runny nose.


----------



## MrMatt

londoncalling said:


> I agree that is in not normal for young healthy active kids to be on the sidelines 2-3 weeks with a cold. although I don't have any data to confirm or deny, there are still a lot of absences at my kid's school. My guess is pre-pandemic, these kids would have been sent to school with a cough and runny nose.


No, it isn't just sniffles.
They're like unable to move, in pain and continuously vomiting for several days in a row.

I've known some of the kids personally for several years on and off as their paths cross my kids, they're strong driven kids, not kids looking for an excuse to stay home.

It's not huge numbers, but the ones that are getting very sick are REALLY sick.
Yes there are still sniffles and things, that's normal.

My data is anecdotal, obviously, but I'm somewhat concerned, but not sure what to do about it at this point.
COVID lockdowns were really tough on a lot of kids, it was almost like a generational low grade depression for several months, they felt very disconnected.


----------



## damian13ster

Plus both Moderna and Pfizer trials saw significantly higher amount of RSV cases among test group than those that received placebo.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Do you need a helium pump with yours posts here now?


----------



## Birder

It seems that Australia, which had some of the most stringent rules about covid and lockdowns is now backing off further boosting of those under 30. 

Fourth vaccine dose unlikely to be approved for under-30s due to myocarditis risk


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> It's not huge numbers, but the ones that are getting very sick are REALLY sick.


One of my friends is an elementary school teacher and she says all the children are currently sick. She caught something from them as well, which was more severe than a cold but milder than a flu. It wasn't covid, since she already caught that from the kids a couple months ago.

My understanding of RSV is that, this was an unintended consequence from all the previous isolation and kids staying away from school. Normally, colds and RSVs circulate among kids and build up some immunity in the population. But currently there is a group that hasn't built up this immunity yet, so RSV is hitting them hard.

@MrMatt is that your understanding of this as well?


----------



## damian13ster

Don't forget about covid vaccines lowering RSV immunity in kids, as pointed out by FDA


----------



## m3s

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592040557936795648


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> One of my friends is an elementary school teacher and she says all the children are currently sick. She caught something from them as well, which was more severe than a cold but milder than a flu. It wasn't covid, since she already caught that from the kids a couple months ago.


I'm hearing that as well. Many are sick, but not all.

Why wasn't it COVID? You can get it multiple times. 



> My understanding of RSV is that, this was an unintended consequence from all the previous isolation and kids staying away from school. Normally, colds and RSVs circulate among kids and build up some immunity in the population. But currently there is a group that hasn't built up this immunity yet, so RSV is hitting them hard.


I think that's a theory, and IMO not a logical one.
I think some of the surge might be from lack of immunity built up, but I don't think the severe outcomes are.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> Why wasn't it COVID? You can get it multiple times.


Good point. I don't know if she rapid-tested herself. Perhaps it was a second Covid.



MrMatt said:


> I think some of the surge might be from lack of immunity built up, but I don't think the severe outcomes are.


But I think when an infection takes hold, and the body doesn't fight it off quickly, severe outcomes become more likely. My understanding is that some prior exposure (some immunity) helps the body fight things off more quickly. To the best of my understanding though.

What's the best explanation you've heard? Any theory about what's going on?


----------



## Money172375

I know it was necessary but in addition to masks, the use of hand sanitizer and physical isolation has likely impacted our immune systems.

I had covid around Canada day. Was sick again 2 weeks ago with what felt like a minor cold. Congestion and cough. No fever or headache. Wife has the same thing now.

hospitals are trying to encourage people to go to family doctors first in Ontario. Problem is the lack of family doctors. And family doctors are also cancelling routine checkups and other routine visits to deal with the inflow of sick children.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> I'm a bit concerned with all this intense focus on aggressive re-boosting. I suspect it has to do with business pressures to keep everything running. Instead of imposing restrictions like capacity limits, or shut down workplaces with outbreaks, maybe government just figures ... let's just pump everyone full of the vaccines and enjoy a regular economy.


Sure James. Please give us that list of companies demanding more shots.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> I know it was necessary but in addition to masks, the use of hand sanitizer and *physical isolation has likely impacted our immune systems.*


 ... I love the way how this hindsight is being played out here. 



> I had covid around Canada day. Was sick again 2 weeks ago with what felt like a minor cold. Congestion and cough. No fever or headache. Wife has the same thing now.


 ... didn't you hear, it's now "DIY-fix" on colds, flu and Covid. Them respiratory meds (Tylenol, Benyl, etc.) have been flying off the shelves for at least a couple of weeks now. Pharmacies are trying to stock them as fast they are being emptied.



> hospitals are trying to encourage people to go to family doctors first in Ontario. Problem is the lack of family doctors. And family doctors are also cancelling routine checkups and other routine visits to deal with the inflow of sick children.


 ... family doctors have been telling patients since the "start of the pandemic (March 2020?) if they have a "fever", they were to go to the nearest hospital for assessment if not treatment. Them family doctors weren't dealing with them respiratory illnesses. I think if your doctor ask you the question " did you get the flu shot", he/she is doing you a favour "now". My family doctor had always asked every year but not this year. Why's that? Because he/she couldn't care if you do or not. It's YOUR responsibility. Besides there is NO treatment for a cold, flu and now "minor" Covid. Only to temper the symptoms. So if you can't breathe, you go to ER. And if you don't die first from asphixation(sic), and be put on a waiting list, then consider yourself lucky to be put on a ventilator. But first be prepared to wait hours (if not a day) there provided you don't die first.

Lack of family doctors - what a joke. No problem there since your tax dollars are hard at work paying for a "Health Minister" of some sorts (in Ontario).


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Good point. I don't know if she rapid-tested herself. Perhaps it was a second Covid.
> 
> But I think when an infection takes hold, and the body doesn't fight it off quickly, severe outcomes become more likely. My understanding is that some prior exposure (some immunity) helps the body fight things off more quickly. To the best of my understanding though.
> 
> What's the best explanation you've heard? Any theory about what's going on?


 ... it's all gonna to work out. It's business as usual as them kids are still going to school (now that the strike if off in Ontario so no excuse there either!), yakking and breathing on each other maskless. After school, they can breathe on their parents who then can breathe on their co-workers the next day since employees are expected in the employer's office now. Silver lining - builds up the immune systems for everybody involved there. Win-win-win there.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> What's the best explanation you've heard? Any theory about what's going on?


Nothing I'd consider reputable.

I'd just assume that it's a mix of things, most likely the current strains could be stronger, combined with possible previous COVID exposure is causing something

Remember, every time you get a cold, or flu or pretty much any other virus, you have varying levels of reaction. 
seems like this year we're getting a strong RSV, strong flu, and still have significant COVID. 

I would suspect most of the stuff people think it is is just spurious correlations.


----------



## Beaver101

If father Ford wants to keep his popularity intact, he should stick with his pumpkin carving commercial (with the disclamer: ain't a professional carver either) ... LMAO. 

Doug Ford criticized for not wearing mask one day after Ontario’s new recommendation


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> I would suspect most of the stuff people think it is is just spurious correlations.


Also people have become hyper-sensitive to anything related to covid so many invalid connections are made.


----------



## andrewf

It's sounding more and more likely that mask mandates may be coming.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Also people have become hyper-sensitive to anything related to covid so many invalid connections are made.


As I've said, from the beginning.

This is just a Coronavirus that happens to have that particular mix of being more contagious and more fatal than the countless other strains of Coronaviruses.

There is a reason there were all these Coronavirus labs around the world, they KNEW this was coming.


----------



## Money172375

In seems in Ontario that the doctors and hospitals are talking more about flu and RSV. 
I’ve never heard of RSV before this year, but the warnings on tonight’s news sound pretty ominous With respect to capacity


----------



## Synergy

HappilyRetired said:


> Sure James. Please give us that list of companies demanding more shots.


The vaccine is not helping to reduce transmission so there would be no real incentive for employers and government to "pump" more shots into workers. Trust me, COVID is ripping through people that had 3-4 shots. Most people I've seen lately are going through all phases of the illness as if they've never received a single shot. Age seems to impact recovery time and how healthy one is in general appears to coincide with duration of symptoms. Even young folks that are on the unhealthy side tend to have prolonged cough, congestion, fatigue, etc. The same ones that would have lingering symptoms from past colds and flus.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... it's all gonna to work out. It's business as usual as them kids are still going to school (now that the strike if off in Ontario so no excuse there either!), yakking and breathing on each other maskless. After school, they can breathe on their parents who then can breathe on their co-workers the next day since employees are expected in the employer's office now. Silver lining - builds up the immune systems for everybody involved there. Win-win-win there.


If people stayed home instead of going to school & work when sick, I think we'd actually be OK. One big problem is that everyone is dragging themselves everywhere even when sick.


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> If people stayed home instead of going to school & work when sick, I think we'd actually be OK. One big problem is that everyone is dragging themselves everywhere even when sick.


"It's just a cold." 

One guy who has convinced himself he doesn't have COVID can infect an entire building.

On two occasions at a place I was contracting early in the pandemic, someone came in who was really sick. To this day, nobody spoke with the two superspreaders. Instead, everyone else went home, including me. The building emptied out like it was on fire.

The odds of those "colds" being COVID were near certain at the time but the point is, they shouldn't have come into work like that, regardless of what virus they have. The lack of consideration for other people is heartbreaking.


----------



## Synergy

james4beach said:


> If people stayed home instead of going to school & work when sick, I think we'd actually be OK. One big problem is that everyone is dragging themselves everywhere even when sick.


It's not that simple, people are infectious 1-2 days before the onset of symptoms. I've seen it play out in real life. Social gatherings seem to cause most of the outbreaks in my neck of the woods, infecting a large percentage of the attendees. Infections in office buildings appear to be much less of an issue. Covid office parties, events, etc. are another story. I'm hoping that Omicron is our vaccine in disguise and will help make COVID disappear! The general public is losing trust and running out of patience.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> "It's just a cold."


Yeah exactly. Or "it's just allergies"... yeah right.



TomB16 said:


> The odds of those "colds" being COVID were near certain at the time but the point is, they shouldn't have come into work like that, regardless of what virus they have. The lack of consideration for other people is heartbreaking.


This past spring, during the Omicron surge, I went into a bank branch in Toronto. One of the employees was in his office, coughing and wheezing like mad. I couldn't believe it.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> There is a reason there were all these Coronavirus labs around the world, they KNEW this was coming.


Well maybe that but more likely just trying to cure, or part of what is considered, the common cold.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Well maybe that but more likely just trying to cure, or part of what is considered, the common cold.


They've been concerned about zoonotic diseases for a while.

There was a lot of interest in pigs actually, just google it.
"porcine coronavirus" before 2019

A lot of people were concerned about flu, because most of the major pandemics have been flu.
But they were also concerned a bit about coronavirus (post SARS), as they recently showed they can spread.
Also completely new zoonotics.









Bats May Be Carrying the Next SARS Pandemic


Disease could jump directly from bats to humans, researchers argue




www.science.org










The Next Pandemic: Why It Will Come from Wildlife


Experts believe the next deadly human pandemic will almost certainly be a virus that spills over from wildlife to humans. The reasons why have a lot to do with the frenetic pace with which we are destroying wild places and disrupting ecosystems.




e360.yale.edu






COVID19 was in general terms known and expected.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> "It's just a cold."
> 
> One guy who has convinced himself he doesn't have COVID can infect an entire building.
> 
> On two occasions at a place I was contracting early in the pandemic, someone came in who was really sick. To this day, nobody spoke with the two superspreaders. Instead, everyone else went home, including me. The building emptied out like it was on fire.
> 
> The odds of those "colds" being COVID were near certain at the time but the point is, they shouldn't have come into work like that, regardless of what virus they have. *The lack of consideration for other people is heartbreaking.*


 ... this I agree with 1,000%. Humans are the most selfish specie on earth.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Yeah exactly. Or "it's just allergies"... yeah right.
> 
> This past spring, during the Omicron surge, I went into a bank branch in Toronto. One of the employees was in his office, coughing and wheezing like mad. I couldn't believe it.


 ... with employers' now expecting their employees back in the "employers' (not employees)" office, it is gonna to be a merry-go-around collaboration, networking and the whole 9 yards buloogies (sic). I wonder if sick notes from your doctor are even accepted now. I guess they would only believe you're REALLY sick if you're living in the ER unit (provided you're lucky to get a spot!).

Seriously, it isn't just employees going in "sick" but spreading it which then goes to the issue of masking. Well, you heard our bozo fake (Ontario's) CMO - "strongly, highly" recommended ... for whom? Who's listening? Not even his boss Ford who was in the legislature - telling everyone to mask up while himself is sharing his air-full germs.

I was on the subway the other day and there was a field trip of high school students like 100+ and I counted like a maximum of 10 students wearing a mask. Thank God, I was on the opposite site of the platform counting o/w I would have dashed as quickly away from this bunch of mask-less potential spreaders.

I think our (Ontario's) health systems is going to NEED ALOT OF luck going through this winter ... as well as Ford and his team of minions.


----------



## Spudd

m3s said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592040557936795648











COVID-19 Vaccination Increases Immunity, Contrary to Immune Suppression Claims - FactCheck.org


The mRNA COVID-19 vaccines teach the immune system to recognize and fight the coronavirus, greatly reducing the likelihood of severe disease if a person is infected. There is no evidence the vaccines impair immunity, as some, including Fox News’ Tucker Carlson, have baselessly claimed.




www.factcheck.org


----------



## james4beach

One of my friends, a healthy 40 year old cyclist, caught Covid twice (or possibly three times).

He last caught it many months ago, and says he still has NO sense of smell. His sense of taste is greatly diminished as well.


----------



## m3s

Spudd said:


> COVID-19 Vaccination Increases Immunity, Contrary to Immune Suppression Claims - FactCheck.org
> 
> 
> The mRNA COVID-19 vaccines teach the immune system to recognize and fight the coronavirus, greatly reducing the likelihood of severe disease if a person is infected. There is no evidence the vaccines impair immunity, as some, including Fox News’ Tucker Carlson, have baselessly claimed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.factcheck.org


I don't doubt it increases immunity

But is it worth the risk for healthy young people


----------



## TomB16

This fact check is entirely anecdotal. It claims there is no data to support the claim of reduced covid resistance after the vaccine efficacy period. This fact check is not factual.

I linked data from the UK ONS (office of national statistics) a couple of pages back. I will not spend the time to find it again. The data is clear, decisive, and from an official UK source.

There is more data than this but I'm waiting on some work to finish percolating to present more.

Its astonishing how unobjective the covid discussion has become. People who are objective will follow the data wherever it leads, instead of rejecting data which does not support their point of view. Few people even know what objectivity is, anymore.

Things are so unobjective, doctors who opine contrary to the imposed narrative can be and are sanctioned and even lose their license. Check out the new law in California which allows non licensed doctors to sanction licensed physicians for straying from message. That is straight up fascism and the sort of thing that happens when massive volume of money are involved.


----------



## MrMatt

TomB16 said:


> Its astonishing how unobjective the covid discussion has become. People who are objective will follow the data wherever it leads, instead of rejecting data which does not support their point of view. Few people even know what objectivity is, anymore.


After the initial outbreaks COVID19 became a political tool

For COVID they're using it, as you point out, to give governments more information control power


----------



## TomB16

m3s said:


> But is it worth the risk for healthy young people


There is a bit of work being done on this but it is not in the spotlight, at this time.

There is some data to suggest the risk of severe reaction to 20-40 year olds from the vaccine is about 1:800. This is much higher than the 1:8000 that has recently come out of the fda initial study data which was released under court order.

That is 0.125%.

What are the odds of a 20-39 year old dieing from covid? They are way, way lower than 0.125%.

What are the odds of a 20-39 year old having a severe reaction to the vaccine? This number is still in question as there is a bunch of data and a bunch of interpretations. Suffice to say, it is non zero.

It seems very clear the risk / reward analysis to 20-39 year olds was either not done or not done honestly.

The vaccine was originally intended to be given to 50+ and high risk people. It is clear it is fit for the original purpose and has saved millions of lives.

Now that you have your hands clamped firmlybon your ears and are humming as loudly as possible, consider this.

Remember when Pfizer vaccine was 95% effective? It was never 95% effective, even with early strains. That number never indicated a 5% chance of becoming infected after vaccination. If that had been the case, countries with high vaccination rates, like northern European countries, could have kept covid under control in early 2021.

The "efficacy" number means something else but I will leave that for another time.


----------



## Beaver101

Am I surprised that these 3 fat oinks oinks oinks are "hard" at work, sending out blowjobs? No !

Ontario's top doctor goes against own advice while maskless at Toronto party



> _Phil Tsekouras, CTV News Toronto Multi-Platform Writer
> Published Friday, November 18, 2022
> 
> Days after “strongly” recommending the use of masks in Ontario, *the province’s top doctor was spotted at a party in Toronto without one.*
> 
> In a number of posts to social media, *Dr. Kieran Moore, Ontario’s chief medical officer of health,* appeared to be in attendance at Toronto Life’s “50 most influential 2022” list party, where he ranked 12th for “Keeping COVID under control.”
> 
> 
> 
> *In at least two videos posted to the publication’s Instagram account, Moore could be seen without a mask on.*
> 
> On Monday, Moore warned of the “three major viral threats” – COVID-19, influenza, and Respiratory Syncytial Virus – currently overwhelming Ontario’s health-care system.
> 
> “All three are actively circulating across Ontario in all of our communities and across the western hemisphere contributing to the pressures on our pediatric health-care system. As the risk to Ontarians increases, we must use all of the layers of protection that we have,” Moore said at the time.
> 
> It should be noted that the province has not introduced a mask mandate.
> 
> The Ontario Ministry of Health has not responded to CTV News Toronto’s several requests for comment on the subject at time of writing.
> 
> Moreover, in a letter sent to parents and guardians of students dated Nov. 17, the same date as the party, Moore repeated his “strong” recommendation that “all Ontarians” and “not just those at high risk” should mask up indoors.
> 
> *Dr. Michael Warner, an intensive care physician at Toronto's Michael Garron Hospital, called out the province’s top doctor in a tweet published after the images surfaced saying, “the CMOH (chief medical officer of health) doesn't follow his own advice on masking.”*
> 
> “How is this supposed to make the parents of sick children and burnt out health-care workers feel as the number of PICU patients continues to exceed PICU capacity,” the tweet continued.
> Moore is not the only one who appears to be ignoring his own advice.
> 
> *Mayor John Tory was also seen in attendance at the same event without a mask.*
> 
> Just days earlier, Tory had said that he continues to follow the CMOH’s recommendations, as well as the city’s own top doctor, who has since echoed Moore’s remarks.
> 
> *Meanwhile, Ontario Premier Doug Ford was criticized Tuesday for not wearing a mask in the legislature. *_


----------



## sags

The latest flu going around is one of the nasty variants. In the past it caused serious symptoms.

This is bad news for a health care system in distress.









Flu variant that hits kids and seniors harder than other strains is dominant in U.S. right now


The H3N2 variant has been associated with more severe flu seasons for children and the elderly in the past, according to the CDC.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## Beaver101

*‘Warped stance on COVID’: Fired Alberta Health Services board member calls out Smith*



> * Former health official fires back at Alberta premier in an open letter, saying her “warped” anti-science beliefs are putting Albertans in harm’s way. *





> By Dean Bennett,The Canadian Press, Fri., Nov. 18, 2022
> 
> _EDMONTON - *A health system leader fired by Premier Danielle Smith has fired back in an open letter, saying her abusive, divisive attacks, blended with “warped” anti-science beliefs, make her a poor excuse for a leader and one literally putting Albertans in harm’s way.*
> 
> “(Albertans) are entitled to governance that is principle-based, respects decency and inspires confidence in its citizens,“ Tony Dagnone said in the letter issued Friday.
> 
> He was one of 11 members of the governing board of Alberta Health Services recently fired by Smith.
> 
> “The current premier defies all those aspirations as she spews wacko accusations at Alberta Health Services and its valued workforce,” he wrote.
> 
> *The premier has chosen to “play to her misguided followers who rant against science and academic medicine under the veiled guise of freedom,” Dagnone said in the letter.*
> 
> “Her warped stance on COVID, which I remind the premier was and is a public health issue not a political punching bag, is nothing short of borderline dereliction when the lives of AHS staff and Albertans are at stake,“ Dagnone wrote.
> 
> “In light of her unhinged public pronouncements, the premier represents the bleakest of role models for women who aspire to be accepted in positions of influence and leadership.“Why would any self-respecting graduate pursue their health-care vocation in a province led by an anti-science premier?”
> 
> Dagnone could not be immediately reached for comment.He and the other AHS governing board members were fired Thursday by Smith, fulfilling a promise she made in her successful summer campaign to win the leadership of the United Conservative Party and become premier.
> 
> The 12th board member, Deborah Apps, quit after Smith won the UCP leadership race in early October, citing concern for the disruption Smith promised to impose on a fragile health system.Alberta Health Services is the agency of more than 100,000 staff tasked with delivering front-line care in the province.
> 
> *Smith blamed both AHS and Dr. Deena Hinshaw, the chief medical officer of health, for bad advice and execution in the pandemic, leading to jammed hospital wards and forcing the province to impose freedom-limiting vaccine mandates and passports. Hinshaw was removed from her job earlier this week.*
> 
> The board has been replaced by Dr. John Cowell, who is charged with fixing multiple stress points in the system, including surgery wait times, ambulance bottlenecks, doctor shortages and overcrowded emergency wards.
> 
> Dagnone, an Order of Canada winner with four decades of work in hospital and health administration, said he has no political affiliations and felt compelled to defend AHS staff.
> “I witnessed the extraordinary collective will of our health-care providers confronting the unimaginable COVID,” he wrote.
> 
> “All deserve our respect and gratitude, however, the premier chooses instead to vilify those who were saving Albertans.”
> 
> Smith spoke Friday at a meeting of the Calgary Chamber of Commerce but declined to speak with reporters. Her office, in a statement, said the province had to take action to address pressing issues in the health system.
> 
> “This decision (to fire the board) was not personal, this is about better outcomes for Albertans, and we are grateful for the work done by the AHS board,” reads the statement.
> 
> Smith has said there will be no health restrictions or vaccine mandates during future waves of COVID-19. And she has said there will be no mask mandates in schools currently dealing with respiratory viral illnesses that are spiking absentee rates and filling children’s hospitals.
> 
> *Smith has publicly embraced alternative approaches to COVID-19, including herd immunity and the since-debunked COVID-19 treatment ivermectin.*
> 
> Earlier this month, she announced she wants to hear from Paul Alexander, a controversial critic of mainstream science who has characterized COVID-19 vaccines as “bioweapons.”
> 
> *“The premier is taking her nonsense to a new level by inviting a former Trump adviser (Alexander) who has been universally scorned for promoting medical quackery,’ wrote Dagnone.*
> 
> “If (she) persists in vocalizing false, conspiratorial and unfounded claims, she will be responsible for putting health-care providers and Albertans needlessly in harm’s way.
> 
> “Her loose and corrosive words appear to satisfy her need for bizarre musings that can and will ultimately impact people’s lives.”
> NDP health critic David Shepherd, responding to Dagnone’s letter, echoed the concerns.
> 
> “(Smith) will continue to blame health-care workers for the current state of care while taking no responsibility herself for the impact of the dangerous misinformation and conspiracy theories she promotes,” Shepherd said.
> “Her reckless politicization of our public health-care system will make it harder to recruit and retain health professionals and for Albertans to access care._”


 ... Oh.My.God.

No wonder damian13ster says nothing about his province in response to handling of Covid but keeps badgering about other provinces other than his own.

Alberta now got a WACKO premier. I thought pissy Kenney was bad but now you got a Danielle dump.

And damian13ster keeps ranting about other fascist leaders when his own province has one that's practicing it all along. He must love that.

damian13ster - ask your wacko premier if she has a job for you in her cabinet! You're a perfect candidate there.

Also, tell her to that "any sick Albertans" are *NOT *welcomed in Ontario!!!!! Ask your neighbour Saskatchewan, it might accept them.

*Add:* I really feel sorry for them medical doctors and health workers in Alberta. If Ms. Smith thinks she can pit health workers against each other, there's a special place reserved especially for her when she gets sick or die.


----------



## moderator2

Keep the thread on-topic please, regarding Covid and respiratory diseases.


----------



## Money172375

A lot of people I know have been hit card by something other than COVID. In fact, the latest illnesses were more severe than COVID. My son, young than 20, was in bed and missed school for a week. Seniors I know have had bad symptoms for weeks. my wife is on day 11. Bad symptoms for a week. Last 4 days much better.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> A lot of people I know have been hit card by something other than COVID. In fact, the latest illnesses were more severe than COVID. My son, young than 20, was in bed and missed school for a week. Seniors I know have had bad symptoms for weeks. my wife is on day 11. Bad symptoms for a week. Last 4 days much better.


Any idea what they're catching? Could it be the flu?

It's also possible people are catching multiple simultaneous infections. With the way people are behaving out there, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. e.g. kids coming home sick from school, parents getting sick at work, then mix it up at family dinners and events, people flying around without masks.

It's easy to catch multiple bugs.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Any idea what they're catching? Could it be the flu?
> 
> It's also possible people are catching multiple simultaneous infections. With the way people are behaving out there, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. e.g. kids coming home sick from school, parents getting sick at work, then mix it up at family dinners and events, people flying around without masks.
> 
> It's easy to catch multiple bugs.


It might be flu. My wife had a shot about week before getting sick, so likely not very effective.


----------



## TomB16

In August, and for the first time in the US, more vaccinated people died of COVID than unvaccinated. 58%, of people who died from COVID in this period had two or three doses.

To be clear, this does not mean that you're more likely to die of COVID if you've had the vaccine. About 80% of Americans have had, at least, 2 doses so the majority of deaths are still unvaccinated people. The point is, the ratio is narrowing quickly.





__





Loading…






www.washingtonpost.com


----------



## damian13ster

TomB16 said:


> In August, and for the first time in the US, more vaccinated people died of COVID than unvaccinated. 58%, of people who died from COVID in this period had two or three doses.
> 
> To be clear, this does not mean that you're more likely to die of COVID if you've had the vaccine. About 80% of Americans have had, at least, 2 doses so the majority of deaths are still unvaccinated people. The point is, the ratio is narrowing quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonpost.com


Just one correction: 68% of people received at least 2 doses


----------



## sags

How many of the deaths came after multiple covid infections ?

Research has shown a correlation.

Also been watching some videos from people working in X-ray and ct scans, and they are seeing a lot of lung tissue damage in Covid recovered patients.

Permanent and cumulative damage may be occurring much like damage to lungs from long term exposure to other sources.

How many people are getting X-rays or scans after they had Covid to see if there is any residual damage ?

Not many would be my guess.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> It might be flu. My wife had a shot about week before getting sick, *so likely not very effective.*


 ... I get that people these days want instant gratification or have that kind of syndrome. 

But I do hope you're aware (aka educated enough to know or at least not under the illusion of) that getting any shot (may it be the Covid vaccine or the flu shot) does NOT prevent you from getting either. It only reduces the "severity" of it. 

If you do not believe in this (the shots to reduce severity), then next time/year, don't get the shot. Take your chance and see what happens. After-all, there's no mandate.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> How many of the deaths came after multiple covid infections ?
> 
> Research has shown a correlation.
> 
> Also been watching some videos from people working in X-ray and ct scans, and they are seeing a lot of lung tissue damage in Covid recovered patients.
> 
> Permanent and cumulative damage may be occurring much like damage to lungs from long term exposure to other sources.
> 
> *How many people are getting X-rays or scans after they had Covid to see if there is any residual damage ?
> 
> Not many would be my guess.*


 ... them doctors ain't gonna to waste resources to x-ray to see lung damages of the mass now when earlier research showed this was the case. Anyhow, no need to x-ray. If you're able to breathe properly, then you're okay. However, if you can't smell or taste properly, Covid is staying with/in you.


----------



## andrewf

Beaver101 said:


> ... them doctors ain't gonna to waste resources to x-ray to see lung damages of the mass now when earlier research showed this was the case. Anyhow, no need to x-ray. If you're able to breathe properly, then you're okay. However, if you can't smell or taste properly, Covid is staying with/in you.


How many people can accurately assess changes in lung capacity? Even if you can still breath normally at rest, you may have reduced aerobic capacity.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> How many people can accurately assess changes in lung capacity? Even if you can still breath normally at rest, you may have reduced aerobic capacity.


 ... let me put it this way. Even you're ever so lucky to have your lung capacity "assessed" (which requires a specialist referral and you know how that works) and do find out you have a ever slight "reduced aerobic capacity", what is the doctor gonna do for you? First thing the doctor is gonna to ask you, are you having problem breathing? No? Then off you go and stop wasting his/her time.


----------



## m3s

Boomer leaders will go down in history


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595906107406704640


----------



## sags

Maybe go over there and see for yourself.

The Chinese aren’t stupid. They have massive outbreaks of Covid and don’t release reliable death numbers. The west has no clue which variant they are dealing with. It may be a new one for all we know.

If people weren’t getting really sick and dying they wouldn’t be doing this to their own economy.

One of the reasons workers protested at Foxconn factory was outbreaks of Covid in the plant.

The workers were afraid of what they were seeing happening around them.


----------



## sags

The Chinese situation makes me wonder what is going on there.

It is far worse there than anywhere else and they are a society that masks and obeys dictates.

Something is going on and nobody is reporting what or why. We are preoccupied with supply chains.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> How many people can accurately assess changes in lung capacity? Even if you can still breath normally at rest, you may have reduced aerobic capacity.


I recommend buying a pulse oximeter. It's good to know one's normal blood oxygen level. That way, you can keep an eye out for sharp declines in oxygen during an infection.

For example with a severe flu or covid (or anything else really), if you feel light-headed / very tired, and then find your oxygen well below normal, that shows a potentially serious condition.



sags said:


> The Chinese situation makes me wonder what is going on there.
> ...
> Something is going on and nobody is reporting what or why. We are preoccupied with supply chains.


I agree, I'm a bit worried about what's going on with China. Hopefully it's nothing, but they've been known to conceal information from the world. We need to be careful to not get overconfident or carried away with our belief that covid is behind us.


----------



## TomB16

Chinese are starting to protest. I there was a way to support the protests from here.

If a locked down Chinese person is reading this, best wishes and I hope you are free soon.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I recommend buying a pulse oximeter. It's good to know one's normal blood oxygen level. That way, you can keep an eye out for sharp declines in oxygen during an infection.
> 
> For example with a severe flu or covid (or anything else really), if you feel light-headed / very tired, and then find your oxygen well below normal, that shows a potentially serious condition.


 ... don't dispute it's good to have one but they (those small portable DIY ones) aren't that accurate. Unless you know a real good reliable model - and don't hesitate to share.



> I agree, I'm a bit worried about what's going on with China. Hopefully it's nothing, but they've been known to conceal information from the world. We need to be careful to not get overconfident or carried away with our belief that covid is behind us.


 ... I guess all we the public, excluding our tax sucking fake CMO (Ontario's), can do is pray there is nothing BIG coming. 

As for Ontario's MOH, she's hopeless. Now that "she can't continuously defend herself, "she (note, the respiratory expert now)" is determining that RSV illnesses are slowing down and we haven't even hit the middle (aka Xmas) of winter yet. Yeah, right genius. 

Both the fake CMO and MOH are living under a boulder in the dark. Oh well, let's see how long that boulder is gonna to shelter his team of wormies for.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Maybe go over there and see for yourself.
> 
> The Chinese aren’t stupid. They have massive outbreaks of Covid and don’t release reliable death numbers. The west has no clue which variant they are dealing with. It may be a new one for all we know.
> 
> *If people weren’t getting really sick and dying they wouldn’t be doing this to their own economy.*
> 
> One of the reasons workers protested at Foxconn factory was outbreaks of Covid in the plant.
> 
> The workers were afraid of what they were seeing happening around them.


 ... wisdom that non-boomers don't have.


----------



## Gothenburg83

Beaver101 said:


> ... don't dispute it's good to have one but they (those small portable DIY ones) aren't that accurate. Unless you know a real good reliable model - and don't hesitate to share.


I have a Wellue pulse & oximeter. I can't speak to it's accuracy or calibration and such but for my purposes it is ok . I chose this model for the bluetooth connectivity and I have the app on my phone where I can get a graphical reading of pulse and O2 vs time which I like. I can't find away to get the raw data and the data acquisition rate isn't great but it's not like I'm using the data for a PHD study or anything. 
One thing to note is that I read these wearable 02 meters don't work very well for dark skinned folks. 









Amazon.com : Wellue WearO2 Wearable Oxygen Monitor Bluetooth Pulse Meter with Vibration, Free APP, Continuously Track O2 Level & Heart Rate : Sports & Outdoors


Amazon.com : Wellue WearO2 Wearable Oxygen Monitor Bluetooth Pulse Meter with Vibration, Free APP, Continuously Track O2 Level & Heart Rate : Sports & Outdoors



www.amazon.com


----------



## sags

It is nuts in China.

The authorities are all dressed in full hazmat gear, and securing people with security in place......also wearing full hazmat gear.

We have none of that......except maybe a mask or something.

WTF is going on over there ? Shanghai has a record number of covid cases now. Their hospitals are overflowing.

If it was just the Omicron.........would they be reacting to this level of lockdowns ?

Check out Tik Tok feeds for videos.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> It is nuts in China.
> 
> The authorities are all dressed in full hazmat gear, and securing people with security in place......also wearing full hazmat gear.
> 
> We have none of that......except maybe a mask or something.
> 
> WTF is going on over there ?


That's how a dictatorship operates. Covid is just the excuse.


----------



## sags

When was the last time we saw a doctor, or went to the pharmacy or clinic or anywhere or dealt with people in Canada wearing full hazmat suits ?

We got Omicron and other viruses floating around......but nobody is wearing full hazmat suits or driving around spraying buildings, roads, and sidewalks.

Something is going on in China and governments aren't talking about it........yet.


----------



## sags

HappilyRetired said:


> That's how a dictatorship operates. Covid is just the excuse.


I really doubt they shut down their economy for no reason.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> I really doubt they shut down their economy for no reason.


Maybe they believe it will completely knock out COVID and then they can blame the west for not doing the same?

ltr


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> I really doubt they shut down their economy for no reason.


Trudeau shut down our economy for 2 full years because of a virus with a 99.95% survival rate for people working age and younger. You were cheering it on the entire time.


----------



## sags

Not even close to the same level of covid restrictions.

Everybody I know kept working or were only off work for short periods of time.

There were exceptions in restaurants, bars, travel, tourism, big events...but not in the main economic drivers of the economy.

The restrictions allowed many industries to continue working and the economy survived much better than most other economies.

Vaccination, mask wearing.......didn't stop most industries from continuing to function like massive covid outbreaks were a real threat to do.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> I recommend buying a pulse oximeter. It's good to know one's normal blood oxygen level. That way, you can keep an eye out for sharp declines in oxygen during an infection.
> 
> For example with a severe flu or covid (or anything else really), if you feel light-headed / very tired, and then find your oxygen well below normal, that shows a potentially serious condition


These are two completely different things. Blood oxygen saturation is relevant for the acute part of the infection, but long term reduction in lung capacity is a bigger concern (assuming you survive).


----------



## andrewf

Beaver101 said:


> ... don't dispute it's good to have one but they (those small portable DIY ones) aren't that accurate. Unless you know a real good reliable model - and don't hesitate to share.


You sure? I don't think they are all that sophisticated devices, and not much less accurate than the professional ones (it's probably more important that those ones are durable, cleanable, etc. than necessarily more accurate).


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Not even close to the same level of covid restrictions.
> 
> Everybody I know kept working or were only off work for short periods of time.


Restrictions were minimal in Canada. Throughout the whole pandemic, I basically went shopping in stores every day or two, whenever I wanted. I constantly flew between 3 provinces, and this was *never* restricted, except for a time when Manitoba had a quarantine in effect.

I met up with friends for walks and talked to them outdoors. I bought plenty of take-out food at restaurants too.

Even with MB's quarantine for out-of-province arrivals, it only went as far as a sign on the wall reminding people to self-isolate. Even when the omicron surge happened, there were still no restrictions and I had business meetings in Toronto during omicron, also visited friends.

(always wearing a sealed N95 mask and seeing friends outdoors when possible, obviously)

Basically, Canada had very few restrictions throughout the pandemic. Certainly ours was much less restrictive than other countries, e.g. Australia which had very strict rules preventing mobility between states, and even locking down cities. And people posting here may not realize how many restrictions appeared in other countries, e.g. southeast Asia where many people couldn't leave their own cities or even neighbourhoods during outbreaks.


----------



## Money172375

HappilyRetired said:


> Trudeau shut down our economy for 2 full years because of a virus with a 99.95% survival rate for people working age and younger. You were cheering it on the entire time.


I thought the provinces were responsible for many shutdowns .


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> When was the last time we saw a doctor, or went to the pharmacy or clinic or anywhere or dealt with people in Canada wearing full hazmat suits ?
> 
> We got Omicron and other viruses floating around......but nobody is wearing full hazmat suits or driving around spraying buildings, roads, and sidewalks.
> 
> Something is going on in China and governments aren't talking about it........yet.


China was doing that two years ago.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> These are two completely different things. Blood oxygen saturation is relevant for the acute part of the infection, but long term reduction in lung capacity is a bigger concern (assuming you survive).


I was thinking of the acute infection. If your active covid/flu infection is bad enough to reduce your blood oxygen reading, you probably have a serious condition that needs attention.


----------



## andrewf

HappilyRetired said:


> Trudeau shut down our economy for 2 full years because of a virus with a 99.95% survival rate for people working age and younger. You were cheering it on the entire time.


Do you think we should have just euthanized all the COVID patients that showed up at the hospital and kept going as normal? Even if it only ever killed old people, if those people show up at the ER and take up beds, that means the car accidents, heart attacks, etc have no way of getting care. Therefore you have to euthanize or allow to die all the old folks who showed up at the hospital with COVID. Die gasping alone.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Do you think we should have just euthanized all the COVID patients that showed up at the hospital and kept going as normal? Even if it only ever killed old people, if those people show up at the ER and take up beds, that means the car accidents, heart attacks, etc have no way of getting care.


My friend's uncle had a stroke in Winnipeg during the pandemic, and had to be moved to a different hospital. There were too many rural Covid patients occupying beds in Winnipeg facilities that were able to treat Covid. Vaccination rates, and public health compliance in general, was very poor in rural Manitoba and all those patients were brought to Winnipeg.

His family was very angry that it was him (the stroke patient) being moved. It's very likely he suffered worse consequences of that stroke, more paralysis and a longer path to recovery. His quality of care was affected.

Whenever I see these noisy people protesting against masks and vaccines, I remind myself that they're the ones who brought the healthcare system to the brink of collapse. Yes they have a right to refuse medicine or to refuse to wear masks, but the consequences also affect EVERYONE else.

Most Canadians were willing to suffer minor inconveniences to protect the healthcare system. It's a question of living in a society and understanding that individual concerns sometimes have to take a back seat to *public* concerns.


----------



## HappilyRetired

andrewf said:


> Do you think we should have just euthanized all the COVID patients that showed up at the hospital and kept going as normal? Even if it only ever killed old people, if those people show up at the ER and take up beds, that means the car accidents, heart attacks, etc have no way of getting care. Therefore you have to euthanize or allow to die all the old folks who showed up at the hospital with COVID. Die gasping alone.


Euthanizing the old people is the only alternative you can come up with? No wonder you voted for Trudeau, you're incapable of reason.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> My friend's uncle had a stroke in Winnipeg during the pandemic, and had to be moved to a different hospital. There were too many rural Covid patients occupying beds in Winnipeg facilities that were able to treat Covid. Vaccination rates, and public health compliance in general, was very poor in rural Manitoba and all those patients were brought to Winnipeg.
> 
> His family was very angry that it was him (the stroke patient) being moved. It's very likely he suffered worse consequences of that stroke, more paralysis and a longer path to recovery. His quality of care was affected.
> 
> Whenever I see these noisy people protesting against masks and vaccines, I remind myself that they're the ones who brought the healthcare system to the brink of collapse. Yes they have a right to refuse medicine or to refuse to wear masks, but the consequences also affect EVERYONE else.
> 
> Most Canadians were willing to suffer minor inconveniences to protect the healthcare system. It's a question of living in a society and understanding that individual concerns sometimes have to take a back seat to *public* concerns.


The healthcare system has been short staffed for decades. Before Covid, before SARS, before Trudeau was an assistant drama teacher wearing blackface.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> When was the last time we saw a doctor, or went to the pharmacy or clinic or anywhere or dealt with people in Canada wearing full hazmat suits ?
> 
> We got Omicron and other viruses floating around......but nobody is wearing full hazmat suits or driving around spraying buildings, roads, and sidewalks.
> 
> Something is going on in China and governments aren't talking about it........yet.


What's going on is the Covid quarantine camps China has built will be used as prisons for the citizens that are currently protesting. The hazmat suits are just theatre.


----------



## andrewf

HappilyRetired said:


> Euthanizing the old people is the only alternative you can come up with? No wonder you voted for Trudeau, you're incapable of reason.


You're ducking the question.


----------



## sags

andrewf said:


> China was doing that two years ago.


Yes.......that is why I started the original covid thread pointing out that something was going on in China.

Then we found out what it was.....the original deadly variant of covid.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Restrictions were minimal in Canada. Throughout the whole pandemic, I basically went shopping in stores every day or two, whenever I wanted. I constantly flew between 3 provinces, and this was *never* restricted, except for a time when Manitoba had a quarantine in effect.


So like Trudeau you simply ignored the guidance from the health units as well.

Rules for thee but not for me!


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Do you think we should have just euthanized all the COVID patients that showed up at the hospital and kept going as normal? Even if it only ever killed old people, if those people show up at the ER and take up beds, that means the car accidents, heart attacks, etc have no way of getting care. Therefore you have to euthanize or allow to die all the old folks who showed up at the hospital with COVID. Die gasping alone.


Why not, the Trudeau government is currently advocating for the euthanization of the poor, and children, why not add old people to the list?
Lets go Logans Run, they're doing a great job with 1984

You realize that Science Fiction is typically a WARNING, not a todo list.


----------



## sags

FUD......the Trudeau government is doing no such thing.


----------



## sags

I support allowing people to die with dignity, if that is their choice and there are few other options.

When patients reach the point there is no relief for their pain and suffering until they die, they should be able to make the decision to die.

My father had a massive brain tumor and was in a hospice. He couldn't eat anything, was in tremendous pain, and vomited his own feces.

There are things worse than death, and he begged me to kill him. it was horrible and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

It was blessed relief when the hospice called that he died overnight. It was an end to his suffering.

My father was deeply religious and would have voted against medically assisted death.........until he was the one suffering.

Then he understood there are situations where life isn't worth living and death is a welcome relief from the suffering.

We are all destined to die some day. It is just a matter of when and how.


----------



## HappilyRetired

andrewf said:


> You're ducking the question.


You asked a stupid question and I pointed that out. I'm not ducking, I'm just not participating in your stupidity.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Do you think we should have just euthanized all the COVID patients that showed up at the hospital and kept going as normal? Even if it only ever killed old people, if those people show up at the ER and take up beds, that means the car accidents, heart attacks, etc have no way of getting care. Therefore you have to euthanize or allow to die all the old folks who showed up at the hospital with COVID. Die gasping alone.


No, but once the immediate danger was over, the restrictions should have been relaxed for everyone.
Remember all the emergency field hospitals? They barely got used.

Nobody is denying that when we were at the critical stage we should have had restrictions, pretty much EVERYONE supports that.
But a year later, when most of the country was vaccinated, and the restrictions were clearly causing more harm than good they should have been rescinded.

Instead we had some people under heavy restrictions, with serious fines, while people like Trudeau and james flew around the country doing whatever they wanted.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> It's a question of living in a society and understanding that individual concerns sometimes have to take a back seat to *public* concerns.


That's kind of the whole point of the emergencies act controversey.

Perhaps the individual inconvenience of dealing with protestors has to take a back seat to the public concern of protesting an overreaching federal government


----------



## andrewf

HappilyRetired said:


> You asked a stupid question and I pointed that out. I'm not ducking, I'm just not participating in your stupidity.


How would you have handled the excess patients at hospital. Who doesn't get care?

If you don't have an answer for this question, you're being unserious and your opinion is not worth listening to.


----------



## HappilyRetired

andrewf said:


> How would you have handled the excess patients at hospital. Who doesn't get care?
> 
> If you don't have an answer for this question, you're being unserious and your opinion is not worth listening to.


We don't know if there would have been excess patients had the lockdown been handled differently.

I'll remember your last sentence the next time you dodge a question.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> How would you have handled the excess patients at hospital. Who doesn't get care?
> 
> If you don't have an answer for this question, you're being unserious and your opinion is not worth listening to.


The exact way they did.
They'd send them home, or cram them in hallways or double them up, or simply refuse care.

You have to understand that we routinely send sick people home to suffer and die without treatment. During COVID it just got a bit worse than normal.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> The exact way they did.
> They'd send them home, or cram them in hallways or double them up, or simply refuse care.
> 
> You have to understand that we routinely send sick people home to suffer and die without treatment. During COVID it just got a bit worse than normal.


Yes......conservative Provincial governments do that.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Yes......conservative Provincial governments do that.


The conservative govt of Manitoba slashed health expenses and eliminated hospital capacity only *months* before the pandemic started. Those were massive cuts in healthcare capacity and the timing couldn't have been worse.

Shows the danger of having governments with that kind of mindset. Premier Pallister himself then went to hang out in Costa Rica just as the provincial disaster was unfolding.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> So like Trudeau you simply ignored the guidance from the health units as well.


Nope, I followed all guidance and rules in my province. And throughout the pandemic, I was consistently more cautious than what was advised.

In many cases I avoided and refused social gatherings (spreader events) when others were going. I was one of the lowest risk people throughout the pandemic.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> You sure? I don't think they are all that sophisticated devices, and not much less accurate than the professional ones (it's probably more important that those ones are durable, cleanable, etc. than necessarily more accurate).


 ... yes, I'm sure as I bought one (from the big online Amz) and have been fooling around with it. The readings have been inconsistent despite following the instructions "closely" and "accordingly". And I bought one that was supposedly with the "best" reviews but then if you look at ALL those devices' ratings, they are only "average like 3 out of 5 stars". So it's no super-surprise to me then. 

Moreover, there has been a news article that the "professional" ones out there - eg. in the hospital are also somewhat defective in the sense they haven't been calibered (if not made) properly for coloured-people. Yes if you are a coloured person, those readings can be false. Ie. if the reading is 98%, you're actually 88% oxygenated. At this point, I'm not sure if the hospitals is aware or even have fixed that problem. The truth there is kinda scary.

Here was that article:

Pulse oximeters may be inaccurate on people of color, FDA warns.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> yes, I'm sure as I bought one (from the big online Amz) and have been fooling around with it. The readings have been inconsistent despite following the instructions "closely" and "accordingly".


Perhaps some brands are better than others. I'm getting consistent readings with mine. Sometimes you have to play with the position on the finger, make sure it's seated well.

Note the "pulse" indicator, the bar graph or light that blinks with your pulse. When the sensor is positioned properly on the finger, you should see the pulse blinking _routinely_. When it's positioned incorrectly, you will notice it's missing a pulse. So wiggle the position of your finger, or put your finger back into the device a second/third time, until you see a steady pulse detection with no pulses being missed.

I do that each time. Make sure it's positioned in a way that it's picking up each pulse. The digital pulse reading should then be stable... sit for a few seconds and watch the pulse reading, it should be pretty stable as it picks up each pulse. Sometimes when it's not stable, I just switch to my other hand and try again.

When I do all that, I get consistent oxygen readings. And as with any other medical readings, take the reading at different times and see what you get. If you have consistently low oxygen (for example, infection or pneumonia) then it will show up over several readings.


----------



## like_to_retire

Beaver101 said:


> The readings have been inconsistent.....


Yeah, you probably haven't been using it properly.

My understanding is that it isn't that important that the Pulse Oximeters are perfectly accurate, rather that they are generally consistent, and if you take periodic readings over time and keep track of the results, then it's quite significant when you observe a change. That's what's important.

I bought one some time ago on my doctor's recommendation (back when I actually had a doctor). It was fairly inexpensive, and works quite nicely. When I use it, I get a fairly consistent SpO2 (blood oxygen saturation level) of 97/60 reading. I keep track of my readings on a spreadsheet along with blood pressure from my other machine. This is great information, and I don't really care if the pulse oximeter is off by 1% as long as it's consistent each measurement, as it is.

So, if I get COVID and suddenly have a 90% reading I know there's a problem. Who cares if the pulse oximeter is perfectly accurate.

ltr


----------



## sags

The SOP in the hospital is to hook people up on oxygen if they show any signs of low levels, so I wouldn't concern myself that they may miss the other signs due to bad readings.


----------



## damian13ster

Sweden Wins! Country That Refused Lockdown and Kept Schools Open Has Lowest Pandemic Mortality in the World


Back in April 2020, Stuff reported on how Sweden had fared during that spring's coronavirus wave despite bucking the international




dailysceptic.org














Canada managed to kill quite a lot of citizens through their reaction


----------



## andrewf

HappilyRetired said:


> We don't know if there would have been excess patients had the lockdown been handled differently.
> 
> I'll remember your last sentence the next time you dodge a question.


"Handled differently" is nebulous. Sure. Had we handled covid like China you're right, we would have had less strain on hospitals.


----------



## HappilyRetired

andrewf said:


> "Handled differently" is nebulous. Sure. Had we handled covid like China you're right, we would have had less strain on hospitals.


It's not nebulous, look at the chart above your comment. We didn't have to handle it like Chia, we could have handled it like Sweden.


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> It's not nebulous, look at the chart above your comment. We didn't have to handle it like Chia, we could have handled it like Sweden.


I don't think so
The Swedish response was far out of step of the global response to be politically feasible.

I think that they kept the measures longer than was warranted, but I think the actions were appropriate during the crisis phase.


----------



## Gothenburg83

HappilyRetired said:


> It's not nebulous, look at the chart above your comment. We didn't have to handle it like Chia, we could have handled it like Sweden.


Different society , different approach 


Google Image Result for https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUGTDbFXQAAujWo.jpg:large


----------



## HappilyRetired

MrMatt said:


> I don't think so
> The Swedish response was far out of step of the global response to be politically feasible.
> 
> I think that they kept the measures longer than was warranted, but I think the actions were appropriate during the crisis phase.


Based on the chart, Sweden had the more appropriate measures in place.

Our restrictions were kept in place longer because we were deliberately lied to, not because they were based on solid science.


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> Based on the chart, Sweden had the more appropriate measures in place.


Sure, but early in the crisis phase I don't think they would have been politically feasible.

Also in the early stages I think erring on the side of caution made sense.



> Our restrictions were kept in place longer because we were deliberately lied to, not because they were based on solid science.


I think that's the key issue, they were lying, they knew they were lying, but they simply didn't care.

I think the trucker convoy was simply a few months ahead of the curve.
As time goes on, the position that the restrictions were too much grew.
If they still had restrictions in June, it would have had much stronger support.

Even in China today, a generally accepted police state, the public is pushing back.
That's less than 10 months after the Canadian trucker protest.

The government can lie for only so long.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Sure, but early in the crisis phase I don't think they would have been politically feasible.
> 
> Also in the early stages I think erring on the side of caution made sense.
> 
> 
> I think that's the key issue, they were lying, they knew they were lying, but they simply didn't care.
> 
> I think the trucker convoy was simply a few months ahead of the curve.
> As time goes on, the position that the restrictions were too much grew.
> If they still had restrictions in June, it would have had much stronger support.


 ... it's history and our tax dollars are continuously being wasted with an "enquiry" that what already happened and was necessary. [I need to post the latest article about Ottawa police now needs to garner back the "public's trust" (laughable) but then that's likely don't belong to a Covid thread.]



> Even in China today, a generally accepted police state, the public is pushing back.
> That's less than 10 months after the Canadian trucker protest.


 ... and? Are you gonna "protest" ... I really would like to see that - MrMatt and his "down with the PM and his Covid policies!"

Actually the other day whilst walking close to Queen's Park, a less than handful of loonie-bins were flagging a huge flag with an expletive on Trudeau. Too bad I didn't have an smartphone or camera to take a picture. it would be entertaining to load a pic or the video here.

So did anyone paid attention there? NOPE, not the foot-walking pedestrians there (and this was heavy-traffic Saturday), not the multiple car traffic running by. NOBODY was paying attention. Meh. YAWN!!!!! Ie. these hill-billies need to start being productive to society or if they don't want to do that like "actually work", then go sit at home and vegetate instead of making public disturbances.

*



The government can lie for only so long.

Click to expand...

* ... this I totally agree with the Ford's government (Ontario's) now.

Like Ms. Jones, the 2-faced minister with one being a medical genius and the other a polical one said late last week "the RVS sickness is trending down".... talking about lying through the teeth without so much as a blink. 

And now today's "medical doctor/respiratory expert" Dr. I. Bogoch says a Covid subvariant(s) are driving infections up and could cause another "wave" of infection to "impact" hospitals CP24 - Toronto News | Breaking News | GTA News.

Of course the fake CMO is nowhere to be found as he's too busy sucking in both your tax dollars and those cocktails at Ford's sponsored parties. And we haven't even got to Xmas yet.


----------



## sags

Stop all restrictions. Let the virus run and everyone look after themselves. Get sick........stay home and check google cures. Have a heart attack......take an aspirin.

Don't call paramedics because they aren't working. Don't go the hospital because it is closed. All the doctors and nurses are staying home too.

Don't call about your hydro not working or your dirty tap water........those workers are staying home.

Don't go the grocery store.......the shelves are empty and nobody is working there.

Don't go the LTC home to visit your loved one. There is no staff there and the place is full of the dead and dying.

Don't complain......you have freedom so be thankful.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I think we should try that. 

Especially freedom from oppression by our government!!!! Now I want ALL my tax dollars back since we don't need ANY of those workers!!!!!


----------



## sags

It appears that is what some people think they want.

Some of them even claim to have superior critical thinking skills.......although that claim doesn't appear to have much underlying support.


----------



## Beaver101

Ontario spent $3.5B less than planned in first half of 2022-23. Here’s what that means

Above thread can probably go into its own as "Ontario's 2022 Budget", just like the Alberta one. But then this is tied in with Covid 22 and the budget will change each year so here it is in this thread.

If one reads through the entire news article, Ontario knows where the "savings" were coming from.

Now Ford and his team of minions can give him/themselves a pat in the back and award themselves a $2M YE bonus EACH (or split the entire amount of savings amongst themselves) for the fabulous job at the "savings done " at the expense of everybody else other than the healthcare sector. Not sure they (along with the majority public) are gonna to be happy at all when they see this.



> .._.The majority of the planned health-care spending reductions came from “health policy and research.” The province also increased planned spending for health services such as hospital operation and home care, while also increasing planned funding for long-term care._


_ ... _no sh1t to the first part. I love the twist of "_also increased planned funding for LTC_" why don't they add "_since the year 2000 or something like that?_" 



> _ Money from the Contingency Fund was sent to the Ministry of Education, likely to support the province’s pledge to provide Ontario parents $200 or $250 education-related “catch up” payments, as well as the Cabinet’s Office_


 ... to catch up on what? $250 per annum for a tutor or daycare? Talk about an assinined bribe.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Stop all restrictions. Let the virus run and everyone look after themselves.


One issue is that people have different opinions on what freedom means. Obviously we know what the convoy people think about freedom.

But I want my freedom too. I demand the FREEDOM to take public transit, fly on airplanes, go shopping without getting sick and possibly disabled.

How about my mom's freedom to get on an airplane without having a severe danger of infection? Or a little old lady's freedom to get on a bus without having to fear for her life?

Yesterday I was at the grocery store, and the place was full of elderly people. There was a chatty old lady at the meat counter, and we talked for a bit. Obviously this kind of socialization is important for seniors. Shouldn't she have the freedom to be able to interact with strangers like this without having to fear a deadly infection?


----------



## Beaver101

What I have learned from this pandemic most is people are the most selfish specie on this earth with some being so selfish it's beyond comprehension. Ie. just plain evil.


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Yesterday I was at the grocery store, and the place was full of elderly people. There was a chatty old lady at the meat counter, and we talked for a bit. Obviously this kind of socialization is important for seniors. Shouldn't she have the freedom to be able to interact with strangers like this without having to fear a deadly infection?


The virus had a 99.95% (maybe higher) survival rate for healthy people 60 and younger. The elderly person you saw at the grocery store could have practiced extreme care, maybe staying home at times, while allowing the rest of society to get on with their lives for the last 2-3 years.

That's how it is supposed to be done and how it's always been done...isolate the sick and vulnerable.


----------



## james4beach

HappilyRetired said:


> The virus had a 99.95% (maybe higher) survival rate for healthy people 60 and younger. The elderly person you saw at the grocery store could have practiced extreme care, maybe staying home at times, while allowing the rest of society to get on with their lives for the last 2-3 years.


So the elderly can't leave home any more, because younger people are too lazy and inconsiderate to take some very simple steps to avoid spreading their germs?

Do you realize what % of this country is over age 60 ?


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> So the elderly can't leave home any more, because younger people are too lazy and inconsiderate to take some very simple steps that can make life safer for everyone?
> 
> By your logic, I should drive at highway speeds through school zones. Children should get out of the way, and those who are stupid enough to get killed were asking for it


There you go making stupid analogies. Please try to be mature if you expect a reasonable debate.

The elderly could have practiced caution for the last 2-3 years, like I just said. It's what has always been done and what has always worked. Quarantine the sick, not the healthy. No one said they can't leave home, they just have to be cautious if they choose to go out.

That's what Sweden did and a chart posted yesterday showed that they fared much, much better than countries that locked down.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Never mind about the seniors- the juniors (aka kids) are getting whacked now. Since the followers of the Freedumbers aren't affected then it's okay. You see 'their freedom' trumps everyone else. They own the air on this planet and they don't give a rataxx crap about you, him, her or anybody else except thyself.

Ornge sees rise in child patient transfers as pediatric hospitals under pressure

Wow, wow ... no wonder Ontario is getting a surplus. Either the miracle of Ornge working for free or someone is cooking the books. Last sentence of the article stated:



> _... Chief Medical Officer of Health Dr. Kieran Moore has said he doesn't expect respiratory season to peak until early to mid-December._


 ... so who on the Ford's team are Ontario taxpayers/public to believe?

Ms. Jones, the Health Minister who stated (just last week) RSVs (respiratory sicknesses) are trending down?

Or our fake CMO who says "respiratory season" hasn't peaked as per above article?

????!!!!


----------



## james4beach

HappilyRetired said:


> There you go making stupid analogies. Please try to be mature if you expect a reasonable debate


No, it's actually a very good analogy. The only reason we drive slowly through school zones is to protect the children.

But you're saying that we shouldn't alter our behaviours (with infectious diseases) to bother protecting children, the elderly, or people with health problems.

So maybe I should drive 150 km/hr through a school zone. Those children should get out of my way if they don't want to get hurt. They can stay home and be safe if they want. They can lock themselves indoors and stay safe. But I will do whatever I want, because I'm a selfish prick who thinks I should do whatever I want, others be damned. I have the freedum to do whatever I want, whenever I want, and others can get out of my way if they don't like it.


----------



## Synergy

Beaver101 said:


> What I have learned from this pandemic most is people are the most selfish specie on this earth with some being so selfish it's beyond comprehension. Ie. just plain evil.


You got that one right.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> So the elderly can't leave home any more, because younger people are too lazy and inconsiderate to take some very simple steps to avoid spreading their germs?
> 
> Do you realize what % of this country is over age 60 ?


Not getting sick isn't a human right. Human rights are spelled out quite well actually, simply Canada has no human rights protection.
Only 'developed' country in the world with notwithstanding clause on human rights


----------



## Synergy

james4beach said:


> One issue is that people have different opinions on what freedom means. Obviously we know what the convoy people think about freedom.
> 
> But I want my freedom too. I demand the FREEDOM to take public transit, fly on airplanes, go shopping without getting sick and possibly disabled.
> 
> How about my mom's freedom to get on an airplane without having a severe danger of infection? Or a little old lady's freedom to get on a bus without having to fear for her life?
> 
> Yesterday I was at the grocery store, and the place was full of elderly people. There was a chatty old lady at the meat counter, and we talked for a bit. Obviously this kind of socialization is important for seniors. Shouldn't she have the freedom to be able to interact with strangers like this without having to fear a deadly infection?


What happens when your FREEDOM interferes with others. Examples are endless. Beaver101 summarized the issue well.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Not getting sick isn't a human right. Human rights are spelled out quite well actually, simply Canada has no human rights protection.


 ... are you not a human? And without a human, you got no rights.


> Only 'developed' country in the world with notwithstanding clause on human rights


 ... I say you're right there and I give you credit for that. The perfect example is Doug Ford - Premier of Ontario (and I wouldn't be surprised your Ms. Smith would do the same) had exercised the "with notstanding" clause 'cause he and his side-kick Leccee gives a crxp about human rights of teachers in the province.

And now the latest with this bozo - appealing Bill124. I have never seen a premier that's so anti-government workers. Isn't he one to begin with or does he think he's still running Deco Labels?


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> No, it's actually a very good analogy. The only reason we drive slowly through school zones is to protect the children.
> 
> But you're saying that we shouldn't alter our behaviours (with infectious diseases) to bother protecting children, the elderly, or people with health problems.
> 
> So maybe I should drive 150 km/hr through a school zone. Those children should get out of my way if they don't want to get hurt. They can stay home and be safe if they want. They can lock themselves indoors and stay safe. But I will do whatever I want, because I'm a selfish prick who thinks I should do whatever I want, others be damned. I have the freedum to do whatever I want, whenever I want, and others can get out of my way if they don't like it.


I didn't say we shouldn't alter our behavior. I said that vulnerable people should take more caution. If you can't understand that please stop commenting, it makes you look foolish.

Also, your analogy to school zones is stupid even if you think it is clever. The correct interpretation would be to pretend the school zone isn't there and drive at 50 kph, not to triple the speed.


----------



## james4beach

HappilyRetired said:


> I didn't say we shouldn't alter our behavior. I said that vulnerable people should take more caution. If you can't understand that please stop commenting, it makes you look foolish.
> 
> Also, your analogy to school zones is stupid even if you think it is clever. The correct interpretation would be to pretend the school zone isn't there and drive at 50 kph, not to triple the speed.


Please stop writing stupid posts. Try harder to understand.

Don't you ever get tired of embarrassing yourself on a daily basis?


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Please stop writing stupid posts. Try harder to understand.
> 
> Don't you ever get tired of embarrassing yourself on a daily basis?


It's okay, James. We know you have a hard time understanding things. Luckily, society will take care of you.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> There you go making stupid analogies. Please try to be mature if you expect a reasonable debate.
> 
> The elderly could have practiced caution for the last 2-3 years, like I just said. It's what has always been done and what has always worked. *Quarantine the sick, not the healthy.* No one said they can't leave home, they just have to be cautious if they choose to go out.
> 
> That's what Sweden did and a chart posted yesterday showed that they fared much, much better than countries that locked down.


 ... OMG, how do you quarantine the sick in support of the FreeDumbers?


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> I didn't say we shouldn't alter our behavior.* I said that vulnerable people should take more caution. *If you can't understand that please stop commenting, it makes you look foolish.


 ... okay genius, how do you get already "vulnerable" people to take more caution? Sounds alot like in your books, they should be taking all the cautions or better yet, drop dead as long as they don't infringe on your rights and simultaneously giving you the excuse to scream about No LockDowns (MrMatt's term)!!!! LockDowns (or even Restrictions) mean No Freedoms!!!!!? Correct?



> Also, your analogy to school zones is stupid even if you think it is clever. The correct interpretation would be to pretend the school zone isn't there and drive at 50 kph, not to triple the speed.


 ... this is the dumbest "correct interpretation" - an interpretation by "pretending the school zone isn't there and drive at 50 kph" ... if your pretensions make you more sensible, then I'm all for it but it's so twisting farcial it ain't funny. If there's "no school zone" meaning "no imposement of the speed limit", you think the speed demons will slow down? Duh.


----------



## Gothenburg83

james4beach said:


> Please stop writing stupid posts. Try harder to understand.
> 
> Don't you ever get tired of embarrassing yourself on a daily basis?


Have you ever been in a London black "hackney" cab late at night and made the mistake of engaging with the driver about the weather? It may be raining but the driver says otherwise and before you know it you get a telling about all sorts of weather and a broad spectrum of all that is wrong. If not in real life I can tell you that you pretty much have here on CMF.


----------



## Jericho

damian13ster said:


> Not getting sick isn't a human right. Human rights are spelled out quite well actually, simply Canada has no human rights protection.
> Only 'developed' country in the world with notwithstanding clause on human rights


Those who are immuno-compromised should already be at home due to the myriad of other risks of being in public.

It's not a 'right' if it can be taken away. It's a granted 'privilege'. Our Charter needs to be amended.


----------



## james4beach

I was texting with a friend tonight. She told me about how her grandmother died last year from Covid.

This woman is in her mid 30s and it took her *months* to fully recover. Covid is not necessarily mild for young people and can still have a significant impact on your lifestyle.

Actual conversation in case people think I just make up these stories.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Sorry to hear that but then I'm not surprised at all. Even the flu (preCovid) has lasting effects (possibly lifelong) on you. I'm an example of that. 

Anyhow, it's beyond your control that there're certain segments of our most unselfish society that think otherwise or Covid is just the flu so no biggie. Besides, the numbers over there in Sweden without any restrictions is doing so much much better than Canada and even the USA! And blah blah blah on Twitter with the whole 9 yards on other social medias of so-believeable self-information with them excellent critical thinking skills.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> I was texting with a friend tonight. She told me about how her grandmother died last year from Covid.
> 
> This woman is in her mid 30s and it took her *months* to fully recover. Covid is not necessarily mild for young people and can still have a significant impact on your lifestyle.
> 
> Actual conversation in case people think I just make up these stories.
> View attachment 23923


They'll just respond that oh well, even if she is in her 30s, she must be fat, diabetic, asthmatic and thus basically deserves it. Nevermind that Olympic athletes were ending up in ICU.


----------



## sags

The vast majority of deaths from covid where among the unvaccinated.


----------



## Beaver101

Man, Ford needs to get his PR person to better write these scripts. If he doesn't have one, then Ms. Jones need to go back to school to upgrade her lying skills.

Ontario to provide free rapid COVID-19 tests in grocery stores until June 2023



> Published Thursday, December 1, 2022
> 
> Ontario will continue to provide free COVID-19 rapid antigen tests for another six months amid a “triple threat” of respiratory illnesses this winter.
> 
> Health Minister Sylvia Jones made the announcement on Thursday, flanked by Premier Doug Ford, while also discussing a new provincial investment that will pay for nursing tuition.
> 
> *“This year's triple threat of influenza, RSV, and COVID-19 has placed extra demands on the health-care system across the country,”* Jones said. “We continue to encourage all Ontarians to stay up to date with their vaccines, including getting your available booster dose and your flu shot.” ...


 ... just last week Ms. Jones aid RVS are trending down so what threat?

And within same article, it says:

_



The funding will be used to provide free tuition for students and to pay for college and hospital costs. The premier said they expect close to 600 nurses to have completed their upskilling education by spring 2023.

“That is 600 more nurses ready to care for our most vulnerable in ICUs across Ontario, including our pediatric ICUs,” Ford said.

*“It's all hands on deck as we use every tool we have to get more nurses working in Ontario right now.” *

Ontario’s hospitals, including those with pediatric units, have been struggling to manage an influx of patients dealing with COVID-19, influenza, and RSV. Patients have reported extraordinarily long wait times in emergency departments and some surgeries have been cancelled due to a lack of beds.

*However, the Ontario government has been adamant there is not a nursing crisis in the province. Just a day earlier, Jones told reporters Ontario has “not seen a mass exodus of nurses” leaving the profession.*

Click to expand...

_ ... which is it? Ms. Jones should either slap Ford's mouth or Ford should be slapping Ms. Jones across the mouth. 

I wouldn't be surprised their next "announcement" is "_nurses can do more and should be working just as hard as them doctors - like 7 days a week, 24 hours _" That's called Ford and his minion Jones "All hands on deck healthcare 'Plan' for Ontarians".


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> They'll just respond that oh well, even if she is in her 30s, she must be fat, diabetic, asthmatic and thus basically deserves it. Nevermind that Olympic athletes were ending up in ICU.


 ... and throw in the "she doesn't deserve rights either".


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> The vast majority of deaths from covid where among the unvaccinated.


 ... most definitely but the saddest part is when the vaccine was (and still is) available, considerable deaths could have been prevented.


----------



## ian

We never expected our covid vaccinations to prevent us from getting covid. That was not the point of the vaccination. 

What we did hope that having the vaccine would lessen the covid impact, would keep us out of the hospital/ free up beds for those who really need then, and hopefully prevent any long lasting covid health issues.

It was similar to flu shots. We have been getting them for 20 years or so. Never had the flu. So we really do not know if they work BUT we do not want to find out the hard way.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> This woman is in her mid 30s and it took her *months* to fully recover. Covid is not necessarily mild for young people and can still have a significant impact on your lifestyle.


The mismessaging about it being an old person disease is one of the major mismessages from the government.

They did a very poor job explaining that to the people.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> The mismessaging about it being an old person disease is one of the major mismessages from the government.


But the virus does impact older people (serious outcomes) much more than younger.


----------



## HappilyRetired

ian said:


> We never expected our covid vaccinations to prevent us from getting covid. That was not the point of the vaccination.
> 
> What we did hope that having the vaccine would lessen the covid impact, would keep us out of the hospital/ free up beds for those who really need then, and hopefully prevent any long lasting covid health issues.


At the beginning we were told by the experts that the shot was 100% effective at both preventing and spreading Covid.

Then once that was proved to be a lie they pivoted and then said it would lessen the impact.

And now we find out that Pfizer didn't even test if the shot prevented the spread of Covid. But they said that they did at first.

That's 3 lies so far. I was more right than all of the experts.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> But the virus does impact older people (serious outcomes) much more than younger.


Yes, but that messaging got lost.


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> At the beginning we were told by the experts that the shot was 100% effective at both preventing and spreading Covid.
> 
> Then once that was proved to be a lie they pivoted and then said it would lessen the impact.
> 
> And now we find out that Pfizer didn't even test if the shot prevented the spread of Covid. But they said that they did at first.
> 
> That's 3 lies so far. I was more right than all of the experts.


They knew from the beginning that the COVID shots did virtually nothing to prevent COVID, and quickly realized it did little to stop the spread.
It did lessen severity, which is a strong benefit.

I think it likely did reduce the spread, because if you were less sick you likely ejected less virus. But I think if you weren't as sick, and were vaccinated, you likely engaged in more risky behaviours, for no net gain.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> They knew from the beginning that the COVID shots did virtually nothing to prevent COVID, and quickly realized it did little to stop the spread.
> It did lessen severity, which is a strong benefit.
> 
> I think it likely did reduce the spread, because if you were less sick you likely ejected less virus. *But I think if you weren't as sick, and were vaccinated, you likely engaged in more risky behaviours, for no net gain.*


 ... must have been the Boomers and the Vulnerable groups.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Yes, but that messaging got lost.


I'm not following you ... pretty much everyone already knows older people are more at risk for covid.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> I'm not following you ... pretty much everyone already knows older people are more at risk for covid.


But that it also affects young healthy people is what got lost.

Normally extremely healthy young people don't get seriously harmed by colds and flu.
This was different. That's what got lost.

While old people are at MORE risk, young people are still at serious risk.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> But that it also affects young healthy people is what got lost.
> 
> Normally extremely healthy young people don't get seriously harmed by colds and flu.
> This was different. That's what got lost.
> 
> While old people are at MORE risk, young people are still at serious risk.


Again, I don't see how it got lost ... isn't the current message for all ages to get vaccinated?

If there is anyone out there now that doesn't know the basic covid facts I'd put that fault on them.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> But that it also affects young healthy people is what got lost.


Yes, I agree with you MrMatt. There was a lot of focus (on the messaging) about elderly people being at risk.

Young and healthy people are at risk too, and I don't think the public understands this. Just among my own friends for example, everyone under 40, I can list:

a male who had lingering tiredness for 2 months
a male who STILL has NO sense of smell, several months after "recovering"
the female I just posted about who took months to fully recover
All of these are Long Covid, and I doubt our medical system even acknowledges or records it. Probably goes unreported.

Those are all healthy and young people in the prime of their lives, and these are pretty serious effects. This is why I am trying to not catch Covid, or at least, not catch it repeatedly.

Imagine the impacts on your job or quality of life from not having any sense of smell (and impaired taste) for several months, wondering if your smell will ever come back, or months of tiredness while you try to work.

Not good.


----------



## TomB16

I'm 55 and just stepped off a cruise ship. We've had Covid multiple times so I'm not worried about it at all.

James... Check this out... We were in a small theatre a few days ago. A full house. A woman in the audience was coughing the whole time. It sounded like really nasty, deep rooted, bronchitis. Nbody said a thing. It was so bad, it was competing with the singer.

We were about 20 seats away from her and decided to stay. We just put on our masks.

Even if this wasn't the era of covid, what's with that? Lol.

My wife picked up some lanyards with clips that we use to wear our masks like a necklace. We can mask up in a few seconds in a biohazard situation.

I'm washing my hands like a germophobe. No symptoms, so far.

I respect the folks who are sheltering in place but we are living our lives. We have natural immunity, decent hygene, and a box of N95 masks. Now its time to live our lives to the best extent reasonably possible.

Best wishes to all.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> I'm 55 and *just stepped off a cruise ship.* We've had Covid multiple times so I'm not worried about it at all.
> 
> James... Check this out... We were in a small theatre a few days ago. A full house. A woman in the audience was coughing the whole time. It sounded like really nasty, deep rooted, bronchitis. Nbody said a thing. It was so bad, it was competing with the singer.
> 
> We were about 20 seats away from her and decided to stay. We just put on our masks.
> 
> Even if this wasn't the era of covid, what's with that? Lol.
> 
> My wife picked up some lanyards with clips that we use to wear our masks like a necklace. We can mask up in a few seconds in a biohazard situation.
> 
> I'm washing my hands like a germophobe. No symptoms, so far.


 ... I thought you said you crossed off "a cruise(s)" from your list when planning for your late fall vacation (this year).



> *I respect the folks who are sheltering in place but we are living our lives.* We have natural immunity, decent hygene, and a box of N95 masks. Now its time to live our lives to the best extent reasonably possible.


 ... you want reiterate this to MrMatt re his "real aka true now" revelation in post #22:

Online buying


> _I'd say about 80% of my retail spend is online, the remaining 20% is Costco._





> Best wishes to all.


 ... you and your wife too! Have fun!

Don't worry about us on CMF. For one, I don't want to see any of your Covid stats and studies.


----------



## TomB16

Hi Beav.

It sounds like you would prefer I not post this link to a German study that concludes myocarditis was likely caused by covid vaccine in the 25 cases in the study of people who died of mycarditis within 28 days of receiving COVId vaccine.









Autopsy-based histopathological characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination - Clinical Research in Cardiology


Cases of myocarditis, diagnosed clinically by laboratory tests and imaging have been described in the context of mRNA-based anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. Autopsy-based description of detailed histological features of vaccine-induced myocarditis is lacking. We describe the autopsy findings and...




link.springer.com





Perhaps you can launch into some personal attacks while you wait for a mod to remove this scientific information from your field of view, thus causing it to cease to exist. Lol.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Wow, I thought you aren't as petty as that but I admit now I'm wrong when you viewed my post(s) as a "personal" attack. 

Think for a simplistic moment, why would I say that when you're supposedly on a "cruise" or "vacation", supposedly to be "enjoying" it with your SO instead of studying and posting about Covid? 

Moreover, if anyone is concerned about mycardiartis or the side effects of the Covid vaccine - they would have long read up on it. So what's done is done. You can't extract that vaccine or unravel their side-effects. And right now, there're no mandates and it's remains an option to get vaccinated or not. And for those affected, they can still sue the manufacturer for those side-effects. Well, then do it instead of whining or worst yet, for you to farcially whine on their behalf.


----------



## zinfit

Trudeau supports Chinese protests against covid mandates. May-be he has reversed his position with the truckers?


----------



## sags

TomB16 said:


> Hi Beav.
> 
> It sounds like you would prefer I not post this link to a German study that concludes myocarditis was likely caused by covid vaccine in the 25 cases in the study of people who died of mycarditis within 28 days of receiving COVId vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Autopsy-based histopathological characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination - Clinical Research in Cardiology
> 
> 
> Cases of myocarditis, diagnosed clinically by laboratory tests and imaging have been described in the context of mRNA-based anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. Autopsy-based description of detailed histological features of vaccine-induced myocarditis is lacking. We describe the autopsy findings and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> link.springer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you can launch into some personal attacks while you wait for a mod to remove this scientific information from your field of view, thus causing it to cease to exist. Lol.


Doesn't the study say that out of 35 cases 3 people were "likely" to have died from mycarditis caused by the vaccine ?

They concluded they died from the vaccine because they couldn't identify any other cause, as they had in all the other 32 cases.

It also appears that all the patients were "untreated" for mycarditis for unspecified reasons.

Were they feeling fine and then dropped over dead ? Were they feeling poorly and couldn't get treatment ?

The truth is we don't know what we don't know and that includes what could come next if the virus continues to spread widely and mutate.

All I know for sure at this point is that covid hasn't gone away yet.


----------



## sags

zinfit said:


> Trudeau supports Chinese protests against covid mandates. May-be he has reversed his position with the truckers?


They didn't represent truckers and they demanded an overthrow of government........hardly the same as locking people in their homes.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> Doesn't the study say that out of 35 cases 3 people were "likely" to have died from mycarditis caused by the vaccine ?
> 
> They concluded they died from the vaccine because they couldn't identify any other cause, as they had in all the other 32 cases.
> 
> It also appears that all the patients were "untreated" for mycarditis for unspecified reasons.
> 
> Were they feeling fine and then dropped over dead ? Were they feeling poorly and couldn't get treatment ?
> 
> The truth is we don't know what we don't know and that includes what could come next if the virus continues to spread widely and mutate.
> 
> All I know for sure at this point is that covid hasn't gone away yet.


It was exactly the same for Covid. People with Covid that may have died from something else were often counted as Covid deaths. Also, people that died immediately after getting the shot (within 14 days) were counted as unvaccinated deaths.

Unless an autopsy was done no one knows for sure. But you can only see one side of the equation.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> They didn't represent truckers and they demanded an overthrow of government........hardly the same as locking people in their homes.


 ... totally agree with your post. Moreover, it's an entirely different kind of protest when in actuality the Convoy hill-billy FreeDumbers of Canada were harassing and terrorizing "fellow citizens" with their demand of "freedom and rights" ... for thyself that is.


----------



## TomB16

zinfit said:


> Trudeau supports Chinese protests against covid mandates. May-be he has reversed his position with the truckers?


Nothing is more in need of reform than the _other guy's tyranny_.

Canada did not lock people in buildings or incarcerate people for testing positive but we lost a lot of freedom during COVID. We are vaccinated but many of those who did not vaccinate lost their jobs, weren't able to travel, and some apartment managers even required proof of vaccination before issuing a lease. We pretended that it was a choice but for the vast majority of us, it was not.


----------



## Beaver101

Hospitalizations signal rising COVID-19 risk for U.S. seniors

Canadians can say "thank god, it's only happening in the USA". However, not sure about the impact on snow-birds. Maybe it's only happening for those living in LTCs in the USA and not those mobile enough to go around spreading it.


----------



## Beaver101

CP24 - Toronto News | Breaking News | GTA News



> _A 4-year-old got sick and was flown 350 km for an ICU bed. Sylvia Jones acknowledges it's “not ideal” that kids are being sent far from home. _


 ... guess it wasn't her kid so no big deal. Just make sure she gets her YE annual bonus for the "huge savings" to please her big upper.

Full details re above article on this link today:

Sick Ontario preschooler airlifted 350 km from home due to full local hospital

Must be feeling "wonderful" going to work every day for deaf-toned S.Jones. You know, getting to put on every day the make-up and those business suit/clothings (both ugly or as ugly as they can come), telling the press "we're making an announcement at 10 am" ...YAWN!!!!


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> James... Check this out... We were in a small theatre a few days ago. A full house. A woman in the audience was coughing the whole time. It sounded like really nasty, deep rooted, bronchitis. Nbody said a thing. It was so bad, it was competing with the singer.
> 
> We were about 20 seats away from her and decided to stay. We just put on our masks.
> 
> Even if this wasn't the era of covid, what's with that? Lol.


Yeah that's gross. Covid or not, really not considerate of the other people.

I just was on a 7 hour flight. One woman was very sick (blowing her nose, looked terrible) and coughed _constantly_ the whole 7 hours. Why wouldn't someone in that condition put on a mask?

Maybe I should have politely offered her a mask, in case she didn't have one. I had some extra surgical ones but wasn't sure if it was a good idea to offer her one.

I was impressed by how many people on this flight had masks. Or who knows, maybe they decided to put them on when they heard that woman coughing.


----------



## TomB16

The second day of the cruise, a man got on a tiny elevator with me wearing a mask. Shortly there after, it became apparent he was sick with a running nose, sunken eyes, a bit flushed, minor coughing, etc.

I really appreciated the mask, as I didn't have one with me at that moment. Super courteous.

We haven't been sick in the last six weeks. I'm doing things that would make sags and Beaver curse out Doug Ford. Masking and hand washing are my only conssions to the pandemic. This has been a lesson in how to do it. Even if COVID were cured tomorrow, I would carry on this operating mode.


----------



## TomB16

Now, does anyone want to discuss Ron DeSantis? Lol! 😬


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> The second day of the cruise, a man got on a tiny elevator with me wearing a mask. Shortly there after, it became apparent he was sick with a running nose, sunken eyes, a bit flushed, minor coughing, etc.
> 
> I really appreciated the mask, as I didn't have one with me at that moment. Super courteous.
> 
> We haven't been sick in the last six weeks. I'm doing things that would make sags and Beaver curse out Doug Ford. Masking and hand washing are my only conssions to the pandemic. This has been a lesson in how to do it. Even if COVID were cured tomorrow, I would carry on this operating mode.


 ... no need for us to curse Doug Ford. It's a self-made curse.

Doug Ford’s family rift over COVID-19 measures plays out on his Christmas card


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> Now, does anyone want to discuss Ron DeSantis? Lol! 😬


 ... wrong thread! There's a Politics thread made especially for that in case you want to interest yourself on that subject.


----------



## TomB16

OK, Beaver. Since you brought it up.Ron DeSantis has empanelled a group to study several things, including the root cause of the epidemic of myocarditis.









DeSantis targets Covid vaccine manufacturers and CDC in latest anti-vaccine moves | CNN Politics


Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis on Tuesday asked his state's Supreme Court to green-light an investigation of "any and all wrongdoing in Florida with respect to Covid-19 vaccines," his latest move to cast doubt on the vaccines' effectiveness and amplify fears about side effects.




edition.cnn.com





I really hope this isn't some GOP witch hunt nonsense. DeSantis has been a political clown so there is good reason for scepticism.

MSNBC did a piece on it, complete with evil sound effects, as though DeSantis was going to personally infect every Floridian with COVID and force them to have a Giuliani hair style.

If the vaccine is so great, an objective study of vaccine vs natural immunity and a root cause of the myocarditis epidemic in mRNA using countries ought to make it look really good.

We have gone out of our way to avoid all data that might show the efficacy of the vaccine vs natural immunity. It is ridiculous.

We have also banned discussion relating to mRNA vaccines as a possible cause of myocarditis.

Can you imagine if the link between mRNA vaccine and myocarditis found by German scientists is confirmed? After we expadited a completely new vaccine technology and approved it for use in pregnant women and children 0.5+ with little to no study? It would be important information. No?

We should not accept the loss of free speech so easily. Shame on us.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> OK, Beaver. Since you brought it up.Ron DeSantis has empanelled a group to study several things, including the root cause of the epidemic of myocarditis.


 ... huh???? I brought up neither. It was you who brought up DeSantis and myOcarditis earlier. I'm merely reminding you that this is a Covid thread and if you want to talk about DeSantis - then there is a Politics thread made especially for that.

And now if you say "well, I'm talking about myocarditis and it's Covid-related." Well, I'm telling you now what I told you earlier about vaccine-induced myocarditis in my earlier post of which I'm not repeating here. And if you don't want to help yourself to the Politics thread, nor read my earlier post about what I think of myocarditis, then fine by me.

Yeah, shame on us. Repeat to emphasize what have I learned from this pandemic. *Humans are the most selfish species on this planet with some so unbelieveably selfish to the point of evilness. * *EOM.*


----------



## TomB16

Meanwhile, a buddy in Riverside, California was just prescribed Ivermectin after testing positive for COVID.

I am not joking.

I am not saying Ivermectin is effective in treating covid, just that he was prescribed this medication.

To be clear, my friend is a far right political hack and your guess as to the likely political affiliation of his physician is almost certainly the same as mine.


----------



## HappilyRetired

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid folks:


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> Keep drinking the Kool-Aid folks:
> 
> View attachment 23957


Maybe the real topic could be "Government illegally releases health records"

Quite simply there is no way to do this research without cross referencing data from 2 different ministries, which means the personally identifiable information was released outside 2 different ministries.
I'm writing my MPP (Provincial jurisdiction), Minister of Health and Minister of Transportation.


----------



## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> Keep drinking the Kool-Aid folks:
> 
> View attachment 23957


 ... so you believe that the insurance companies can get a copy of your health record or find out if you were Covid-vaxxed or not? Talk about who is drinking the self-made Kool-Aid.


----------



## sags

The long term effects of covid infection are being discovered as the manifest themselves. Covid viruses corrupted the immune system which has a major effect on our bodies.

All kinds of symptoms and ailments are appearing and are linked to known covid damage.

There needs to be more research into the long term affects of covid, especially as it continues to survive as a massive global pandemic enjoying a perfect environment for the virus to continue to mutate into something much more dangerous.

Time is not on our side and we need to move forward without undue delays caused by unproven scientific conjecture and faulty political ideology.


----------



## TomB16

This morning, I was on a flight between cities in Brazil. Masking is mandantory here on flights and also in secured areas of the terminal.

There was one person on the flight who kept taking their mask off, despite being asked repeatedly to put it on. Guess what part of Canada they were from.

Some of us behave like children. It was embarrassing.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> There needs to be more research into the long term affects of covid


Canada is very slowly coming to grips with Long Covid. This is much better understood in the US (where it can be diagnosed), but Canada has been trying to ignore it.

The Chief Science Adviser is recommending that the government comes up with criteria to diagnose Long Covid. There is a big economic cost associated with Long Covid.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> The long term effects of covid infection are being discovered as the manifest themselves. Covid viruses corrupted the immune system which has a major effect on our bodies.
> 
> All kinds of symptoms and ailments are appearing and are linked to known covid damage.
> 
> There needs to be more research into the long term affects of covid, especially as it continues to survive as a massive global pandemic enjoying a perfect environment for the virus to continue to mutate into something much more dangerous.
> 
> Time is not on our side and we need to move forward without undue delays caused by unproven scientific conjecture and faulty political ideology.


Are you still listening to the same "experts" that lied to us for the last 3 years? You should be embarrassed but yet you are lecturing us.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Canada is very slowly coming to grips with Long Covid. This is much better understood in the US (where it can be diagnosed), but Canada has been trying to ignore it.
> 
> The Chief Science Adviser is recommending that the government comes up with criteria to diagnose Long Covid. There is a big economic cost associated with Long Covid.


 ... I'm not sure that the USA understands it (long Covid) better than us Canadians given their freedom first and head in the sands with their death rates. And if they do, could it because they are the vaccines producers and we're not? Anyhow, only way Covid will go away is when our health systems collapses aka humans going away first.


----------



## sags

It sounds like we have to deal with it as it comes.









LaughterinLight PhD on TikTok


LaughterinLight PhD's short video with ♬ original sound




vm.tiktok.com


----------



## Beaver101

^ Most certainly. That's the "plan" for Ontarians ... courtesy of our "medical expert now" MOH Ms. Jones and her side-kick "boss" aka vice-versa too.


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> Are you still listening to the same "experts" that lied to us for the last 3 years? You should be embarrassed but yet you are lecturing us.


Several people have longstanding issues that conveniently cropped up during COVID.
Maybe it's covid, maybe it's the shot, maybe it's spurious, maybe it's nothing and we're just paying attention to respiratory illness more.

Experts or not, it looks like we have a problem.

Instead the Fed government is focused on telling the provinces to "fix healthcare", despite it being an intractable problem.

Lets be fair and honest, nobody actually has a solution to healthcare, it's an impossible problem.


----------



## Beaver101

I could place this link in the Politics thread but then Covid had lead to these results after 2 plus years and will continue to do so.

Normally I don't read into stats since one is living through it so why bother? But then such statistical results only "RE-affirms if not confirm" this is real case. Sorry for Ontarians only.

Doug Ford’s government doing 'poor job' on most issues, new survey finds

*



Doug Ford’s government doing 'poor job' on most issues, new survey finds

Click to expand...

*


> _Katherine DeClerq, CTV News Toronto Multi-Platform Writer, Thursday December 15, 2022
> 
> 
> It’s been six months since Doug Ford was re-elected premier of Ontario, and according to a new survey his government is getting a “frosty” reception on the majority of issues.
> 
> The data, released by the Angus Reid Institute on Thursday, suggests Ontarians believe the Ford government has performed poorly on all major issues, with the exception of its handling of the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> *About 81 per cent of respondents said the Ford government was doing a “poor job” on health care,* while 78 per cent said the same of cost of living
> 
> The survey suggests about 80 per cent of Ontarians also believe the Progressive Conservatives are doing a poor job on housing affordability—a file the government has been prioritizing since they were re-elected.
> 
> “The only issue for which the government receives more praise than condemnation is its ongoing handling of the COVID-19 pandemic, chosen as a top priority for just eight per cent of Ontarians,” the survey says.
> 
> About 49 per cent of respondents say the government did a good job with its response to the pandemic, while 46 per cent say they did a poor job. Four per cent said they were not sure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The survey comes as Ford’s approval rate continues to drop. A separate Angus Reid survey released on Dec. 7 suggested Ford’s approval rate sits around 34 per cent, *making him one of the **lowest-ranking premiers in the country.*
> 
> It also represents an 11-point drop since the June election.
> 
> The rankings were calculated on the heels of a controversial few months involving negotiations with education workers and the government’s use of the notwithstanding clause.
> 
> According to the most recent data, Ontarians primarily blame Ford and Education Minister Stephen Lecce for the dispute.
> 
> *About 45 per cent of respondents say the blame lies with Ford, while about 41 per cent place the fault on Lecce.*
> 
> Despite all of this, the survey suggests little has changed in terms of Ontarians’ voting intentions.
> If an election was held today, about 37 per cent of respondents said they would support the Progressive Conservatives, while 27 per cent would vote for other New Democratic Party and 25 per cent would throw their support to the Liberals.
> 
> “All three figures are statistically identical to those seen prior to the June election, when Ford won a majority government with 41 per cent of the vote.” The online survey of 1,058 was conducted between Nov. 28 and Dec. 3, and carries a margin of error of +/-3 percentage points 19 times out of 20._


 ... Ontarians would vote for PC only because there're no other candidates from the other parties that are well-known or strong enough AT THE MOMENT to vote for.

Ie. Answers for your question of "Who is the best premier to pick for in Ontario" are as follows:
a) Doug Ford
b) Same as a)
c) Same as b)
d) all of the above

Talk about an easy if not cheating question.


----------



## sags

In fairness, Ford has done a good job with the economy as well as a pretty good job with covid........when he followed Justin Trudeau's lead.

He has failed badly on healthcare because he stuck with failed conservative ideology that health care is an easy target to cut spending costs.

There is no instant magic cure for healthcare now, but it highlights what should have been done in the past to strengthen the system.


----------



## Synergy

Ontario's chief medical officer of health links viral surge to 'negative consequences' of extended mask mandates and Justin Trudeau stating that money won't solve Canada's health care problem. Refreshing to hear a little bit of common sense, questioning, etc.

Our health care system has been a mess for years.


----------



## james4beach

This evening, I talked with my 40 year old friend who lost his sense of smell due to Covid. It began after catching Covid last year, and it's persisted for about a year. Most people who lose their smell will recover it within 6 to 12 months, so unfortunately he's had it worse than usual.

It should be noted that he caught Covid again after that, so perhaps that's a factor in how long this is lasting.

He says it feels like a 80% to 90% decline in smell. A doctor told him it's neurological (in the brain) and he is now trying to re-train himself to detect smells.

To do this, he bought a wide range of strong essential oils. He smells them while imagining and trying to recall what the scent should be. e.g. sniff the powerful lemon oil and recall what it should smell like. Since these are powerful scents, he can detect a bit of them, and hopefully he will make progress this way.


----------



## sags

Synergy said:


> Ontario's chief medical officer of health links viral surge to 'negative consequences' of extended mask mandates and Justin Trudeau stating that money won't solve Canada's health care problem. Refreshing to hear a little bit of common sense, questioning, etc.
> 
> Our health care system has been a mess for years.


The governments need to bring in the experts on assembly line manufacturing to develop a comprehensive healthcare system.

There should be different level of care clinics all over, and hospitals should be reserved for the most serious health concerns.

Paramedics should receive expanded medical training and be accompanied by a registered nurse.

Registered nurses should be able to provide low level treatment in clinics that are overseen by an on duty doctor.

The current system is a "hurry up and wait" system, and we no longer have the luxury for that kind of system.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> This evening, I talked with my 40 year old friend who lost his sense of smell due to Covid. It began after catching Covid last year, and it's persisted for about a year. Most people who lose their smell will recover it within 6 to 12 months, so unfortunately he's had it worse than usual.
> 
> It should be noted that he caught Covid again after that, so perhaps that's a factor in how long this is lasting.
> 
> He says it feels like a 80% to 90% decline in smell. A doctor told him it's neurological (in the brain) and he is now trying to re-train himself to detect smells.
> 
> To do this, he bought a wide range of strong essential oils. He smells them while imagining and trying to recall what the scent should be. e.g. sniff the powerful lemon oil and recall what it should smell like. Since these are powerful scents, he can detect a bit of them, and hopefully he will make progress this way.


... regaining his sense of smell is one step. Pray he doesn't have other lingering "long" Covid effects. I never had Covid but the annual flu with one being so severe that it could have been Covid and to this day (after a decade), I'm still suffering from one of its lasting effect of sinus problems. Additionally it triggered both a permanent allergy plus asthma problem for me.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> The governments need to bring in the experts on assembly line manufacturing to develop a comprehensive healthcare system.
> 
> There should be different level of care clinics all over, and hospitals should be reserved for the most serious health concerns.
> 
> Paramedics should receive expanded medical training and be accompanied by a registered nurse.
> 
> Registered nurses should be able to provide low level treatment in clinics that are overseen by an on duty doctor.
> 
> The current system is a "hurry up and wait" system, and we no longer have the luxury for that kind of system.


 ... if the public can come up with this, then why do we need "experts" like the (an example) Minister of Health for? Sucking up our taxes to pretend doing a job?


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... regaining his sense of smell is one step. Pray he doesn't have other lingering "long" Covid effects. I never had Covid but the annual flu with one being so severe that it could have been Covid and to this day (after a decade), I'm still suffering from one of its lasting effect of sinus problems. Additionally it triggered both a permanent allergy plus asthma problem for me.


Yeah I hope he ends up OK.

And you're right, other infections like the flu can also cause similar problems. The flu can even cause higher rates of heart attacks and strokes, similar to what Covid does. So I guess all of these severe respiratory infections have similar consequences.

Sorry to hear about the lasting sinus problem. Have you tried doing saltwater nasal rinses on a regular basis?


----------



## jlunfirst

I had covid last feb. which lasted for 2 wks. 

I have not read this entire thread and don't have energy to plough through it:

I was never supportive of the anti-vaxers. And this the truck convoy that happened in Ottawa and at the Alberta-U.S. border in Coutts.... deeply wrong interpretation of "freedom". Alot of those folks probably have never lived in a country with true authoratarian dictatorship.

On behalf for my siblings who all work in Toronto hospitals:
My sister-doctor at her hospital, did /does work with patients, which includes seeing patients covid. She has 2 children in their early teens. Her hubby, a CAnada Post delivery guy, got covid last spring.

Another sister, a clinical pharmacist since they are part of clinical patient care teams at a major teaching acute care hospital could not take vacation for no more than several consecutive hospital. The hospital needed to keep somehow enough clinical staff to deal with patient overload. It is hospital that deals with downtown overdosed patient, shotgun injuries, etc. also. 

Still another sister works in a pediatric cancer ward. Hospital was allowing only 1 parent per visit to see child.

I ask that people do not cut down our burnt out health care professionals. They are there to save lives...no matter who you are. They must also deal with violent patients.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Yeah I hope he ends up OK.
> 
> And you're right, other infections like the flu can also cause similar problems. The flu can even cause higher rates of heart attacks and strokes, similar to what Covid does. So I guess all of these severe respiratory infections have similar consequences.
> 
> Sorry to hear about the lasting sinus problem. *Have you tried doing saltwater nasal rinses on a regular basis?*


 ... yes I have along with doc prescribed nasal sprays. Initially sprayed my nose so often that I looked like Rudolph. Now it gets really bad when the cold weather hits. Summer is much better (aka normal).


----------



## Beaver101

jlunfirst said:


> I had covid last feb. which lasted for 2 wks.
> 
> I have not read this entire thread and don't have energy to plough through it:
> 
> I was never supportive of the anti-vaxers. And this the truck convoy that happened in Ottawa and at the Alberta-U.S. border in Coutts.... deeply wrong interpretation of "freedom". Alot of those folks probably have never lived in a country with true authoratarian dictatorship.
> 
> On behalf for my siblings who all work in Toronto hospitals:
> My sister-doctor at her hospital, did /does work with patients, which includes seeing patients covid. She has 2 children in their early teens. Her hubby, a CAnada Post delivery guy, got covid last spring.
> 
> Another sister, a clinical pharmacist since they are part of clinical patient care teams at a major teaching acute care hospital could not take vacation for no more than several consecutive hospital. The hospital needed to keep somehow enough clinical staff to deal with patient overload. It is hospital that deals with downtown overdosed patient, shotgun injuries, etc. also.
> 
> Still another sister works in a pediatric cancer ward. Hospital was allowing only 1 parent per visit to see child.
> 
> I ask that people do not cut down our burnt out health care professionals. They are there to save lives...no matter who you are. They must also deal with violent patients.


 ... and those hill-billied Convoy FreeDumbers wasn't exactly doing justice for their fellow Albertans by descending on Ottawa to terrorize and harass the innocent citizens living there.

And for those freedoms-for-thyself protestors (aka basically anti-everything) that were in front of the hospitals particularly those in Toronto eg. TGH - they belong to the group of with too-much-time-on-their-hands and bored-out-of-their-minds of "low lifers, if not low IQrs".


----------



## Gothenburg83

HappilyRetired said:


> Keep drinking the Kool-Aid folks:


Insurance companies are disturbing entities for sure. The study seems to talk more about human behaviour and a lot of speculative ramblings.

_The proximate causes of most crashes are human behaviors including speeding, inattention, tailgating, impairment, improper passing, disobeying a signal, failing to yield right-of-way, or other infractions.
These behaviors might partially reflect health consciousness, safety mindedness, community spirit, or other psychological characteristics that are difficult to measure in a systematic manner.
Simple immune activation against a coronavirus, for example, has no direct effect on traffic behavior or the risk of a motor vehicle crash.
Instead, we theorized that *individual adults who tend to resist public health recommendations might also neglect basic road safety guidelines*_

Factors could include political identity, negative past experiences, limited health literacy, or social networks that lead to misgivings around public health guidelines.


----------



## Gothenburg83

MrMatt said:


> Maybe the real topic could be "Government illegally releases health records"
> 
> Quite simply there is no way to do this research without cross referencing data from 2 different ministries, which means the personally identifiable information was released outside 2 different ministries.
> I'm writing my MPP (Provincial jurisdiction), Minister of Health and Minister of Transportation.


A USA study using Ontario data! 

The report does talk of safeguards but I have no idea how secure or private this is. They seem to have a far reaching amount of data. 

_*The study was registered in advance, approved by the Sunnybrook Research Ethics Board, and conducted using Institute for Clinical Evaluative Sciences safeguards. *_

COVID Vaccine Hesitancy and Risk of a Traffic Crash - The American Journal of Medicine (amjmed.com) 

*Vaccination Status*
We identified individuals using encrypted identifiers from official government registries.

We included adults age 18 years or more on July 31, 2021 to ensure that each was eligible for a regular driver's license and a COVID vaccine

Information on age (years), sex (binary), home location (urban, rural), and socioeconomic status (quintile) was based on demographic databases.

Linked health care records were used to identify past diagnoses (International Classification of Diseases, Ninth Revision) and access to care (clinic contacts, emergency visits, hospital admissions) based on the preceding year.

We directed specific attention to diseases associated with traffic risks, including alcohol misuse, sleep apnea, diabetes, depression, and dementia.

For interest, we also checked for a past diagnosis of hypertension, cancer, and COVID infection. The available databases lacked information on driver skill, functional status, personality traits, traffic infractions, political affiliation, and self-identified ethnicity


----------



## MrMatt

Gothenburg83 said:


> A USA study using Ontario data!


USA study?
Please support this claim.


----------



## Gothenburg83

Gothenburg83 said:


> A USA study using Ontario data!
> 
> The report does talk of safeguards but I have no idea how secure or private this is. They seem to have a far reaching amount of data.
> 
> _*The study was registered in advance, approved by the Sunnybrook Research Ethics Board, and conducted using Institute for Clinical Evaluative Sciences safeguards. *_
> 
> COVID Vaccine Hesitancy and Risk of a Traffic Crash - The American Journal of Medicine (amjmed.com)
> 
> *Vaccination Status*
> We identified individuals using encrypted identifiers from official government registries.
> 
> We included adults age 18 years or more on July 31, 2021 to ensure that each was eligible for a regular driver's license and a COVID vaccine
> 
> Information on age (years), sex (binary), home location (urban, rural), and socioeconomic status (quintile) was based on demographic databases.
> 
> Linked health care records were used to identify past diagnoses (International Classification of Diseases, Ninth Revision) and access to care (clinic contacts, emergency visits, hospital admissions) based on the preceding year.
> 
> We directed specific attention to diseases associated with traffic risks, including alcohol misuse, sleep apnea, diabetes, depression, and dementia.
> 
> For interest, we also checked for a past diagnosis of hypertension, cancer, and COVID infection. The available databases lacked information on driver skill, functional status, personality traits, traffic infractions, political affiliation, and self-identified ethnicity





MrMatt said:


> USA study?
> Please support this claim.


Correction and apologies I am watching WC final and never got as far as the footnotes.

*Footnotes*
*Funding*: This project was supported by a Canada Research Chair in Medical Decision Sciences, the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, the Graduate Diploma in Health Research at the University of Toronto, and the National Sciences & Engineering Research Council of Canada. The views expressed are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the Ontario Ministry of Health


----------



## damian13ster

Did they account for amount of miles driven/mobility that might differ between people who perceive risk and consequences of infection as lower and people who consider the risk to be higher?


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... yes I have along with doc prescribed nasal sprays. Initially sprayed my nose so often that I looked like Rudolph. Now it gets really bad when the cold weather hits. Summer is much better (aka normal).


With the nasal saline rinse methods, you should be careful to do them gently up to a level that works for you. Don't over-do it, as it can cause irritation.

Maybe once a week, I use a disposable plastic cup and pour one or two saline rinse packets into it, along with sterilized water. In the shower, I gently snort the salt water.


----------



## sags

What about one of those machines that blow water up your nose and it comes out the other side ? 

I always think they must really hurt. My eyes start watering just watching the ads.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> What about one of those machines that blow water up your nose and it comes out the other side ?
> 
> I always think they must really hurt. My eyes start watering just watching the ads.


I don't see the advantage of a machine when all you need is a plastic cup in the shower. The "Neti Pot" is another popular way to do this, and those are semi disposable, can be used for a while and then replaced. I think they even come included in the large packs of saline packets that are sold at grocery stores and Shoppers.

The machines scare me too. What about the bacterial or fungal growth inside the machine? That sounds potentially dangerous to me... including the force of such a jet!


----------



## james4beach

james4beach said:


> This evening, I talked with my 40 year old friend who lost his sense of smell due to Covid. It began after catching Covid last year, and it's persisted for about a year. Most people who lose their smell will recover it within 6 to 12 months, so unfortunately he's had it worse than usual.
> 
> It should be noted that he caught Covid again after that, so perhaps that's a factor in how long this is lasting.
> 
> He says it feels like a 80% to 90% decline in smell. A doctor told him it's neurological (in the brain) and he is now trying to re-train himself to detect smells.
> 
> To do this, he bought a wide range of strong essential oils. He smells them while imagining and trying to recall what the scent should be. e.g. sniff the powerful lemon oil and recall what it should smell like. Since these are powerful scents, he can detect a bit of them, and hopefully he will make progress this way.


I posted above, about my friend who lost his sense of smell from Covid.

Today I saw this in-depth article on losing the sense of smell, and methods people try. They even talk about the exact same training I mentioned above, sniffing lemons.

Then I remembered I actually have another friend whose smell was disrupted by Covid. In his case, certain foods dramatically changed. He says that garlic now smells bizarre and unfamiliar to him. According to the second article, this is another variation of the Covid smell disruption. If two of my friends both have had this happen, it must be a pretty common thing with Covid:



https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/loss-smell-covid-19-nose-implant-1.6684115



Second article:



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lost-sense-smell-covid-parosmia-1.6078500


----------



## sags

This is not good.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1604748747640119296


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> This is not good.


Yeah this looks horrendous. I feel really bad for the Chinese, that's a really bad situation.

It's very bad news for us too. There are going to be a massive number of infections and that's a *mutation factory*. There's a high risk of new variants in the next few months.

All we can do is hope and pray that it doesn't generate a more dangerous variant. The only reason we're currently doing OK (and everyone is having fun) is that omicron has been mild and our current vaccines protect against it quite well. Let's hope it stays like this, but new variants can always bring surprises.


----------



## Beaver101

^ With the "restrictions (aka open-doors, FreeDumbers and tone-deaf political hacks' policies)" we have in NA, it's gonna to be a Covid2019 redux.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Yeah this looks horrendous. I feel really bad for the Chinese, that's a really bad situation.
> 
> It's very bad news for us too. There are going to be a massive number of infections and that's a *mutation factory*. There's a high risk of new variants in the next few months.
> 
> All we can do is hope and pray that it doesn't generate a more dangerous variant. The only reason we're currently doing OK (and everyone is having fun) is that omicron has been mild and our current vaccines protect against it quite well. Let's hope it stays like this, but new variants can always bring surprises.


"There's a high risk of new variants in the next few months."
There's been a new variants for the last several thousand years, because that's what Coronaviruses do.
it's a particularly fun virus that mutates quite a bit, that's why it's ALWAYS been so problematic.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> "There's a high risk of new variants in the next few months."
> There's been a new variants for the last several thousand years, because that's what Coronaviruses do.
> it's a particularly fun virus that mutates quite a bit, that's why it's ALWAYS been so problematic.


But what's different is that we're dealing with a whole new genetic lineage (SARS-CoV-2), something that is "novel". Human immunity hasn't quite caught up to it, and that's why it's dangerous.

If mutations take a turn in China towards something that evades immunity from previous infections and vaccinations, then we could have a problem. Hopefully we still get partial protection from our existing hybrid immunities. Most of us now have prior omicron infection + vaccinations which puts us in a good place.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> But what's different is that we're dealing with a whole new genetic lineage (SARS-CoV-2), something that is "novel". Human immunity hasn't quite caught up to it, and that's why it's dangerous.
> 
> If mutations take a turn in China towards something that evades immunity from previous infections and vaccinations, then we could have a problem. Hopefully we still get partial protection from our existing hybrid immunities. Most of us now have prior omicron infection + vaccinations which puts us in a good place.


Just like SARS-CoV (there is a reason we added a 2), and MERS and countless other variants.

It is virtually guaranteed that the mutations in China and/or elsewhere will turn towards something that evades immunity from previous infections and vaccinations, because Coronaviruses have been doing EXACTLY this for thousands of years.

The thing that irks me is that for some reason people are obsessed with novelty of these strains as if it's some wild new thing, when it's pretty much the same as it's always been.

It's just a Coronavirus, acting like a Coronavirus.


----------



## sags

No human alive has witnessed anything like this before.

This virus was genetically enhanced in the Wuhan lab and it is doing what it was designed to do.


----------



## Birder

james4beach said:


> something that evades immunity from previous infections and vaccinations,


I really don't know why you keep insisting there is ANY immunity from vaccination. Pfizer has already stated that they never tested whether the vaccine would stop transmission. It does not stop infection (getting it) nor does it stop transmission (spreading it). It may lessen the severity of illness - although most of the people currently dying of Covid have been boosted multiple times.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Birder said:


> ... although most of the people currently dying of Covid have been boosted multiple times.


That comment seems to suggest that those who have been vaccinated are faring worse than those who have not. Can you refer us to the studies supporting that?


----------



## james4beach

Birder said:


> I really don't know why you keep insisting there is ANY immunity from vaccination


I think it's pretty well established that vaccinated people are less likely to end up in the hospital and ICU, throughout omicron.

That can always change going forward, but until now, the vaccines have been effective at reducing severe outcomes.


----------



## Synergy

damian13ster said:


> Did they account for amount of miles driven/mobility that might differ between people who perceive risk and consequences of infection as lower and people who consider the risk to be higher?


Nope. There are stats that show a higher proportion of vaccinated people worked from home. Essential workers had a lower vaccination rate, often had no choice but to go to work, drove / walked more, etc. You'd expect a lot more accidents! Additionally, it's possible that the vaccinated public where very scared, stayed home as much as possible, etc. They would need to account for this in their results.

Conclusion - you want to avoid accidents, stay home!

Here's a link to the actual study where they acknowledge a few of the study limitations.








COVID Vaccine Hesitancy and Risk of a Traffic Crash


Coronavirus disease (COVID) vaccine hesitancy is a reflection of psychology that might also contribute to traffic safety. We tested whether COVID vaccination was associated with the risks of a traffic crash.



www.amjmed.com





The study appeared to be fairly well done but researchers made some pretty bold assumptions and recommendations that make you question their motives.


----------



## Jericho

Beaver101 said:


> ^ With the "restrictions (aka open-doors, FreeDumbers and tone-deaf political hacks' policies)" we have in NA, it's gonna to be a Covid2019 redux.


If you're scared, stay inside.


----------



## MrMatt

Synergy said:


> Nope. There are stats that show a higher proportion of vaccinated people worked from home. Essential workers had a lower vaccination rate, often had no choice but to go to work, drove / walked more, etc. You'd expect a lot more accidents! Additionally, it's possible that the vaccinated public where very scared, stayed home as much as possible, etc. They would need to account for this in their results.
> 
> Conclusion - you want to avoid accidents, stay home!
> 
> Here's a link to the actual study where they acknowledge a few of the study limitations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Vaccine Hesitancy and Risk of a Traffic Crash
> 
> 
> Coronavirus disease (COVID) vaccine hesitancy is a reflection of psychology that might also contribute to traffic safety. We tested whether COVID vaccination was associated with the risks of a traffic crash.
> 
> 
> 
> www.amjmed.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The study appeared to be fairly well done but researchers made some pretty bold assumptions and recommendations that make you question their motives.


Which is why you can't just accept "the science".

It's like "safe injection sites" studies that found "no negative impacts". 
It was easy, they simply didn't consider negative impacts, and therefore didn't find them.

There is a LOT of bad research, and a lot of politically motivated research.


----------



## Beaver101

Jericho said:


> If you're scared, stay inside.


 ... it would be more appropriate for you to tell that to other forum members such as MrMatt if not look at yourself in the mirror since he has do his shopping 80% online, presumably delivered to his door steps if not inside the car on curbside pick up. I still have to walk to the grocery store and do my shopping in person, if not breathe the outside air.


----------



## Jericho

Beaver101 said:


> ... it would be more appropriate for you to tell that to other forum members such as MrMatt if not look at yourself in the mirror since he has do his shopping 80% online, presumably delivered to his door steps if not inside the car on curbside pick up. I still have to walk to the grocery store and do my shopping in person, if not breathe the outside air.


Then put on a hazmat suit, if you're scared. Please ensure it's sound proof.


----------



## andrewf

One silver lining of the impending explosion of cases in China is that they don't use the same vaccines as the rest of the world, so there is not the same kind of selective pressure to evade the western mRNA vaccines, much less the bivalent.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> No human alive has witnessed anything like this before.
> 
> This virus was genetically enhanced in the Wuhan lab and it is doing what it was designed to do.


Fauci approved funding for it, then lied about it. And he lied about many other things too. Repeatedly. But he got to pretend to be the voice of reason on TV for 2 years and then retire without answering any tough questions.

I no longer trust the experts because I have been more correct than they have.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> One silver lining of the impending explosion of cases in China is that they don't use the same vaccines as the rest of the world, so there is not the same kind of selective pressure to evade the western mRNA vaccines, much less the bivalent.


That's a really good point. I had not thought about that!


----------



## sags

The Chinese are no longer reporting deaths, as they deal with a surge in cases mainly caused by 2 new sub variants.

The most prominent is the BF 7 strain which has an RO of 10-18.......which means rapid spread. It is also more capable of evading vaccine protection.

Chinese health experts warn of new Covid-19 variants as highly transmissible Omicron strain BF.7 spreads like wildfire (msn.com)


----------



## Beaver101

Jericho said:


> Then put on a hazmat suit, if you're scared. Please ensure it's sound proof.


 ... either you are hazmat suit manufacturer pushing those or you cannot (spelled it out entirely just for you) read or good possibility of both. Now I'm waiting for your reply that you're NOT scared and NOT afraid to die.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> The Chinese are no longer reporting deaths, as they deal with a surge in cases mainly caused by 2 new sub variants.
> 
> The most prominent is the BF 7 strain which has an RO of 10-18.......which means rapid spread. It is also more capable of evading vaccine protection.
> 
> Chinese health experts warn of new Covid-19 variants as highly transmissible Omicron strain BF.7 spreads like wildfire (msn.com)


 ... it will be a matter of time before we get these new fashionable variants when everything like the airport contniues to be opened. Like I mentioned previously, it would not surprise me if we have a redux.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> One silver lining of the impending explosion of cases in China is that they don't use the same vaccines as the rest of the world, so there is not the same kind of selective pressure to evade the western mRNA vaccines, much less the bivalent.


To be fair, could the western vaccines be even less effective than they are for current variants?
They are pretty much placebo with added risk of heart problems at this point


----------



## sags

I think we will soon find out.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> I think we will soon find out.


Yes we are now going to see a live "experiment" of what happens when a population without the MRNA vaccines gets infected.

Even with their domestic vaccine, China has a low vaccination rate among the elderly, so the population doesn't have the same immunity safeguards as other countries.

I was listening to someone talk about Australia and New Zealand, which had strict lock downs and a zero covid policy (like China). They kept up this policy while they vaccinated everyone with the MRNA vaccines. Once vaccination was complete, then they opened up. As I understand it, Covid has been quite mild in AU & NZ.

Simply "opening up" is not what returns things to normal. Vaccinating the population with an effective vaccine, _and then_ opening up, is what returns things to normal.


----------



## Birder

Mukhang pera said:


> That comment seems to suggest that those who have been vaccinated are faring worse than those who have not. Can you refer us to the studies supporting that?


Per data from  health-infobase.canada.ca, those aged 60 and up continue to be the main age groups dying of covid, despite also being the most vaccinated. I personally know someone who died of Covid in October, aged 77 and with 5 shots. Yes, he was older but he died of covid at home. So the vaccine did not help him. And from the graph, average death rate is higher in 2022 than in 2021. Yes, more people have covid since it is more contagious, but there have also been a lot of vaccinations in that time.

Similarly, outbreaks at LTC facilities continue. Parents of friends are in LTC homes and all have received at least 5 shots and some have now received 6 shots. These are our most vulnerable and yet outbreaks continue. So, the vaccines clearly do not stop infection or spread. OutbreakData

In a column by Dr. Leana Wen (vocal public health professor, MD and contributor to CNN and Washington Post) published December 18, 2022 in the WP, she makes some astounding observations. As I am not a subscriber, I clipped a portion of the article. You can view for free if you share your email address with the WP.


















Here is a link to the article she quotes from the Lancet








Protection from previous natural infection compared with mRNA vaccination against SARS-CoV-2 infection and severe COVID-19 in Qatar: a retrospective cohort study


Previous natural infection was associated with lower incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection, regardless of the variant, than mRNA primary-series vaccination. Vaccination remains the safest and most optimal tool for protecting against infection and COVID-19-related hospitalisation and death...



www.thelancet.com





and a link to the article from the NEJM








Protection and Waning of Natural and Hybrid Immunity to SARS-CoV-2 | NEJM


Original Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — Protection and Waning of Natural and Hybrid Immunity to SARS-CoV-2



www.nejm.org





While interesting, the CDC study seems to be dated since it was published in January 2022.

There is a wealth of information available - it is just not being published by our Canadian mainstream media.

Apologies if some of these links or extracts have not been posted properly.


----------



## Birder

Mukhang pera said:


> That comment seems to suggest that those who have been vaccinated are faring worse than those who have not. Can you refer us to the studies supporting that?


Here is another recent study which concludes that the bivalent vaccine provides modest protection. And yet, per their figure 2, "The risk of COVID-19 also varied by the number of COVID-19 vaccine doses previously received. The higher the number of vaccines previously received, the higher the risk of contracting COVID-19 (Figure 2). "

Effectiveness of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) Bivalent Vaccine


----------



## jlunfirst

Since it will be Christmas Eve, I don't really plan to say anything much more than this: I probably will get vaccinated next month or so. If I visit Toronto, I'm certain my family will want me vaccinated.. even if the protection is modest. 

My mother will be 89 and all my 4 sibs work in Metro Toronto hospitals. I can't ignore the level of vigilance within my own family...not just covid but other stuff. Am over 60+ anyway.


----------



## TomB16

It is estimated the Chinese COVID R0 ~= 18. That means, every infection spreads to 18 other infections.

China was originally predicted to have a COVID wave that would last until April but now it appears it will be finished much earlier than that.

As best I can tell, the average Chinese person is absolutely terrified of COVID and would do anything to avoid getting it.

There are also unconfirmed reports that testing stations are telling people they do not have COVID, even if they test positive COVID. Again, this is speculation.


----------



## TomB16

Does anyone have any detail at all on the Canada/Moderna joint venture that is designed to provide 100M doses per year? I'm interested in any details with regard to cost, ownership ratios, etc.

The JV agreement was signed April 29, 2022. As a public project, there must be some information floating around but I can't seem to find any.


----------



## Mukhang pera

I'll admit to not having taken time to read all of that to which you have referred. And, in a world of "fake news" and fake just about everything, I was somewhat content to accept that governments around the world have seen vaccines as worthwhile. Maybe all have been duped. I don't know.

For now, I am content to have faith in the Pfizer vaccine. Don't forget that they make Viagra. If they can raise the dead, they can save the living.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Simply "opening up" is not what returns things to normal. Vaccinating the population with an effective vaccine, _and then_ opening up, is what returns things to normal.


Absolutely, and when they get an effective vaccine... well that would be nice.

The problem is that since we don't have an effective vaccine, COVID will continue to spread and mutate, like it always has.

Sure with the vaccines that reduce severe outcomes, we can manage it, but until we can stop spread, we can't stop it.

Of course we're already back to normal, with a broadly circulating virus that's only a mutation away from being lethal.


----------



## sags

People say these viruses have always been around, but they they never spread non stop all year continually mutating without any respite from it.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> People say these viruses have always been around, but they they never spread non stop all year continually mutating without any respite from it.


Uhh yeah they have.

I get the idea that you're well over 50, my point is you spent more than half a century not caring about Coronaviruses or what they did, now suddenly you're paying attention and it's like you're surprised that something exists.

This is the way it's been for thousands of years, but people like you keep thinking this is some new development.
It's like you weren't paying attention.

To be fair, in the previous century you didn't go and get the virus typed last time you got a cold. It might have been a coronavirus, or something else, you simply didn't care.

But that's a well documented thing. Look at the residential schools scandal.
We've known for years what happened, they taught it in school, I liked to the curriculum.

For some reason it got in the media and everyone reacted like it was some new thing that was hidden and unknown.
No this was right there, you just weren't paying attention.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> People say these viruses have always been around, but they they never spread non stop all year continually mutating without any respite from it.


How can you be so uninformed on almost every single thing?


----------



## sags

This looks like the normal seasonal colds and the flu to you ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1606530274933751809


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> This looks like the normal seasonal colds and the flu to you ?


Not sure who you're talking to.

But you're missing the point, I'm not sure if it is intentional, or you can't grasp it.

COVID19 is behaving EXACTLY like every other Coronavirus strain we've observed.
The only significant difference is that this one happened to get noticed, likely due to it's particularly effective spread/lethality.

We have Coronaviruses that spread more, and we have ones that are more fatal, (as well as spread less and are less fatal). This particular series of mutuations simply happen to hit the sweet spot that makes them more dangerous than normal.


----------



## sags

I keep forgetting that some CMF members know more than experts like this doctor, despite having no education, training, or experience.

My bad.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> Not sure who you're talking to.
> 
> But you're missing the point, I'm not sure if it is intentional, or you can't grasp it.
> 
> COVID19 is behaving EXACTLY like every other Coronavirus strain we've observed.
> The only significant difference is that this one happened to get noticed, likely due to it's particularly effective spread/lethality.
> 
> We have Coronaviruses that spread more, and we have ones that are more fatal, (as well as spread less and are less fatal). This particular series of mutuations simply happen to hit the sweet spot that makes them more dangerous than normal.


A few more important differences I can readily observe.

Millions of deaths, long lasting severe symptoms after infection, rate of spread and ease of infection, and evasion of vaccines and natural immunity to name a few.


----------



## cainvest

sags said:


> I keep forgetting that some CMF members know more than experts like this doctor, despite no education or experience.
> 
> My bad.


And by your experts you mean someone's twit feed?


----------



## sags

Yea …someone with this resume.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Feigl-Ding


----------



## cainvest

sags said:


> Yea …someone with this resume.
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Feigl-Ding


From your wiki page link ... 

_"His tweets during the pandemic have also at times been criticized by other scientists as alarmist, misleading, or inaccurate. "_


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> A few more important differences I can readily observe.
> 
> Millions of deaths, long lasting severe symptoms after infection, *rate of spread and ease of infection, and evasion of vaccines and natural immunity to name a few.*


Other than the higher level of harm, the other items you list aren't differences, they're actually normal for Coronaviruses.

That's my point, it is MOSTLY THE SAME as it's always been.


----------



## Synergy

Mukhang pera said:


> I'll admit to not having taken time to read all of that to which you have referred. And, in a world of "fake news" and fake just about everything, I was somewhat content to accept that governments around the world have seen vaccines as worthwhile. Maybe all have been duped. I don't know.
> 
> For now, I am content to have faith in the Pfizer vaccine. Don't forget that they make Viagra. If they can raise the dead, they can save the living.


The raising of the dead was a side effect of a failed cardiovascular medication. They have no idea what they are doing! We are all apart of a massive experiment!


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> COVID19 is behaving EXACTLY like every other Coronavirus strain we've observed.


This one is more deadly than the other thousands of viruses which make up "common colds". I agree that it's normal that it circulates and mutates, but the other common colds aren't this lethal.


----------



## sags

Our local health unit reports significantly more covid deaths in 2022 than the two previous years.

2022….246

2021….153

2020…..105

More people are dying from covid while we pretend the pandemic is over. People have become complacent and the Ontario government has abdicated their primary duty of protecting the public. 









People are dying of COVID-19 in record numbers. Why don't we notice?


COVID-19 deaths reported by the London-area health unit in 2022 have surpassed the totals in each of the past two pandemic years, even amid a considerable…




lfpress.com


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> I keep forgetting that some CMF members know more than experts like this doctor, despite having no education, training, or experience.
> 
> My bad.


You don't have to be a doctor to know and understand generally accepted medical facts. Just like you don't have to be a pilot to understand how a plane flies.

When you're wrong, you should be thankful for receiving accurate information. But you seem to prefer to remain uninformed.

How old are you? Have you spent your entire life ignoring facts that you don't like?


----------



## sags

I rely on the experts for advice.

I wouldn’t get in an aircraft with an untrained pilot either.

If not from experts, where do people get their advice from ?


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> I rely on the experts for advice.


Which experts? The ones you see on TV and your favourite media sources? What about the ones you never hear from?

I've been more accurate than the experts on Covid. Therefore, everything they say is automatically considered suspect until it can be verified.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> This one is more deadly than the other thousands of viruses which make up "common colds". I agree that it's normal that it circulates and mutates, but the other common colds aren't this lethal.


Yes, that's the only real difference, which again is the point.
This is all completely normal and expected, it just happens to be more lethal.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I rely on the experts for advice.
> 
> I wouldn’t get in an aircraft with an untrained pilot either.
> 
> If not from experts, where do people get their advice from ?


No you don't, you rely on people who agree with you, who happen to have credentials.


----------



## sags

A couple of weeks ago people were protesting on the streets of China to have the restrictions removed.

The world praised the "freedom loving" protests. They are no protests now and the world doesn't talk about them anymore.

Instead, the Chinese hospitals are overflowing, the crematoriums can't keep up with the deaths, and people are panicking and leaving cities.

People are dying on the streets with no help coming to them. There are shortages of oxygen tanks, blood, and other medical supplies.

We are back to the beginning of the pandemic again. The Chinese will remove quarantine and open borders on January 8 and the people will travel all over the world.

How long before Canadians demand our borders be closed again to international travel ? People are notorious for having short memories.


----------



## Beaver101

^ That's called "sharing" ... LMAO. 

I guess the phrase "we're all in it together" has loooonnnngggg been FORGOTTEN, by/including our so-called "health experts". Another way of the so-called health experts saying "you're on your own". 

Look at the fake CMO Moore - he's too busy praising and positioning himself at one of those holidays receptions, his excuse is he can't eat and drink with his mask on which is another way of saying, why waste the opportunity to gorge himself on those $5 cocktails and god knows what else (aka Ontario's (yours) tax dollars).

For one why do you think we're (at least in Ontario) are out of Tylenols, flu/cold medicines, etc.? and constantly so.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> I rely on the experts for advice.
> 
> I wouldn’t get in an aircraft with an untrained pilot either.
> 
> If not from experts, where do people get their advice from ?


 ... the trolls on CMF - that's their dream. And in turn, the trolls get their advice from their fellow conspiracy theorists with a Messiah in the lead. It's too bad Jim Jones was dead and the rest are in jail. But then there're always new ones cropping up so not to worry that both you and I and everyone else can't keep up with.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> This one is more deadly than the other thousands of viruses which make up "common colds". I agree that it's normal that it circulates and mutates, but the other common colds aren't this lethal.


 ... you see to MrMatt - a coronavirus is a coronavirus. To him, it doesn't matter which version (or variant) as long as he can claim so on this forum. No big deal. 

I say, that's a boy, good going. Just stick with ordering online and having your orders delivered.


----------



## jlunfirst

Methinks folks are overmilking this topic.. can we talk about other different health stuff?


----------



## Beaver101

jlunfirst said:


> Methinks folks are overmilking this topic.. can we talk about other different health stuff?


 .. it's a "Covid" thread and if Covid continues, be prepared to see a new "Covid-19 for 2023" thread. And I wouldn't be surprised then that it will exceed 200 pages, particularly we get a redux.

So what other health stuffs do you want to see? You're free to start a thread.

If you want my "honest" opinion, a thread "dedicated" to just how well our tax dollars are being spent on medical care these days are looonnggg overdue. But then no one really wants to listen - easier to sticking the heads in the sand, particularly with the so-called "experts".


----------



## sags

The US, Italy, Japan, and other countries will start testing passengers arriving from China.

Half the passengers on a flight to Italy from China tested positive for covid.

The US isn't too concerned about the variants presumed to be circulating in China, because they are already present in the US.

They are concerned about the lack of transparency by China on the virus that is spreading.

They want to make sure it isn't a new variant, since it appears to be spreading much more rapidly than in America........if it is the same variant.

India and other countries have also expressed concern over the lack of transparency by the Chinese.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> The US, Italy, Japan, and other countries will start testing passengers arriving from China.
> 
> Half the passengers on a flight to Italy from China tested positive for covid.


Yes, the US just announced mandatory COVID-19 tests for travellers coming from China.

But of course, Canada has arms wide open and happily accepts any sick and infectious foreigners into our country. Once they set foot in YVR, they immediately get on a connecting flight and take their new variant to another Canadian city.

The Americans are smarter than us.


----------



## james4beach

Scott Gottlieb commented today: we don't know what variants are circulating in China.

There is poor transparency from China. There could be new -- more dangerous -- variants already circulating in China that we don't know about.

If China simply has the known omicron strains, then no problem... we can handle that. But hey does anyone remember that time that China had a killer virus spreading like wildfire, and didn't tell anyone?


----------



## s1231

I've read many articles about blood clots on last a couple of years.
So I can say,
reducing blood clots = reduce risk of many sickness

30 min. stretch / light exercises everyday reducing risk of clots.
(can be bed exercises - wiggle ankle, move neck, finger, shaken body, breathing excercise
and stomach massages etc. - most people able)
Sars2, MRNA vaccines, any sickness, cancer etc. are linking with clots so
work on reducing it has a great benefits.

There are many ways of reducing it. another important one is managing stresses.
Excess stresses (fear, sadness, anger etc.) that increase risk of clots 30% more. ( that's a lot!)
No wonder many people had trouble with in recent years.

Not moving / non active will increase micro clots. ( it's kinda seeds of clots.)
avoid accumulation of those will reducing the health risks at present - in future.
(rely on medication could be short term but long term meds may negative impacts on blood circulations, decrease body temperature etc that cause other complications of health.)

anyway, China made excess stresses, non active - stuck in home long term that didn't help the pandemic.
also lock down lead malnutrition that public may not accessible regular foods at there.
I'm not surprised that they are in poor health conditions by that.

weakening the immune system create more bugs. ( so We do opposite. )
Well, let's see we'll achieve better year 2023~!









Endothelial dysfunction in COVID-19: an overview of evidence, biomarkers, mechanisms and potential therapies - Acta Pharmacologica Sinica


The fight against coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by SARS-CoV-2 infection is still raging. However, the pathophysiology of acute and post-acute manifestations of COVID-19 (long COVID-19) is understudied. Endothelial cells are sentinels lining the innermost layer of blood vessel that...




www.nature.com




- Endothelial dysfunction in COVID-19: an overview of evidence, biomarkers, mechanisms and potential therapies


----------



## sags

Gottlieb had some interesting comments. He is not an alarmist and is only interested in finding out what is going on.

It sounded like several countries have decided to jointly obtain and study samples as soon as they can retrieve them.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> But hey does anyone remember that time that China had a killer virus spreading like wildfire, and didn't tell anyone?


When did that happen?


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Yes, the US just announced mandatory COVID-19 tests for travellers coming from China.
> 
> But of course, Canada has arms wide open and happily accepts any sick and infectious foreigners into our country. Once they set foot in YVR, they immediately get on a connecting flight and take their new variant to another Canadian city.
> 
> The Americans are smarter than us.


You're right. Back in the day Trump wanted to stop people from China visiting the US and he was called racist even though he was right all along. It only took you 3 years to figure it out.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> When did that happen?


2019 and early 2020. It seems that the Chinese knew that something serious was happening, but didn't share the knowledge with the world.

How many people died as a result? In February 2020, my friend (an ER doctor in a major city) told me how they were overloaded with flu cases, and people were dying left right and center in his hospital.

That was February, and everyone thought it was influenza. It's pretty safe to assume that many of those people had caught Covid, not influenza, and we just had no idea. The Chinese did not share their knowledge of the virus in early 2020.


----------



## james4beach

And so we don't forget this timeline, here's an article from February 13, 2020.
At this point, the virus was already spreading around the world but we had no idea. The rest of the world was basically in the dark about the severity.

Remember, Covid was infecting and spreading in North America by January.









 China Still Not Sharing Coronavirus Information, Experts Say


China is releasing a daily count of newly identified cases, but not the date when those patients became ill, making it impossible for epidemiologists to tell if the epidemic is growing or waning




www.voanews.com


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> 2019 and early 2020. It seems that the Chinese knew that something serious was happening, but didn't share the knowledge with the world.
> 
> How many people died as a result? In February 2020, my friend (an ER doctor in a major city) told me how they were overloaded with flu cases, and people were dying left right and center in his hospital.
> 
> That was February, and everyone thought it was influenza. It's pretty safe to assume that many of those people had caught Covid, not influenza, and we just had no idea. The Chinese did not share their knowledge of the virus in early 2020.


It's okay to admit that Trump was right when he wanted to stop planes from China. It's not like people will think any less of you. 😁


----------



## Beaver101

^ Yeah, and the 2020 election was rigged against him with the presidency stolen from him, like a god-given right .... WAAAAHHHH!!!! MAGA alright ... in jail.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> Gottlieb had some interesting comments. He is not an alarmist and is only interested in finding out what is going on.
> 
> It sounded like several countries have decided to jointly obtain and study samples as soon as they can retrieve them.


 ... I think they (all countries) should. But it's too late now. Just sit back and pray there's is no redux to watch though I'm not betting my money on it.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Yes, the US just announced mandatory COVID-19 tests for travellers coming from China.
> 
> But of course, Canada has arms wide open and happily accepts any sick and infectious foreigners into our country. Once they set foot in YVR, they immediately get on a connecting flight and take their new variant to another Canadian city.
> 
> The Americans are smarter than us.


Because Trudeau is an idiot, and we re-elected him.
Don't worry PM Singh will save us !

I don't like PP, but at least he pretends to care.

Lots to dislike about Trump, but calling out China wasn't wrong.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> 2019 and early 2020. It seems that the Chinese knew that something serious was happening, but didn't share the knowledge with the world.


No doubt china has issues with sharing info but according to this timeline link they reported a possible new virus to the WHO on Dec 31, 2019 and a SARS like virus on Jan 7, 2020. How long would it have taken other countries to determine it was something new?


----------



## sags

We will see what the research on the infected Chinese travelers reveals.

It is probably not a good idea to be traveling around the world right now, until the experts know what they are dealing with.

I certainly wouldn't be going on a cruise anytime soon.

2 airline flights arriving in Milan, Italy from China had 50% of the passengers infected with covid.


----------



## HappilyRetired

sags said:


> The Chinese aren't reporting any information to WHO on the explosion of infections in China anymore.


The WHO lied on China's behalf at the start of Covid. You need to understand that most of the WHO decisions and mandates are politically motivated, not health motivated.


----------



## MrMatt

HappilyRetired said:


> The WHO lied on China's behalf at the start of Covid. You need to understand that most of the WHO decisions and mandates are politically motivated, not health motivated.


That's no different than the rest of the UN.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Re post#4283, then it's an opportunity for you to join WHO and tell the world "your" "truth" aka what you think, your medical expertise, better to be injected with bleach or ultra-violeted up the derriere-hole than the Covid vaccine which guarantees to give you myocarditis btw, that the leftists are out to decimate the rightists, the Dump is the greatest as with MAGA, and the Convoy FreeDumbers should lynch Trudeau for not giving them an audience, yada yada, yada, yada etc. etc. etc. etc. aka trolling to infinity. 

Well, I'm waiting "truth-telling" genius on CMF since everybody else lies.


----------



## m3s

MrMatt said:


> That's no different than the rest of the UN.


Or the IMF


----------



## TomB16

A couple of british doctors speculate the entire Chinese population of 1.4B will be infected over the course of about 8 weeks. That is 6 more weeks. After that, the wave will be over.

R ~= 18


----------



## Beaver101

^ That precise, eh? Then when is the next wave after this one?


----------



## sags

Spreading to 1.4 billion people is a smorgasboard buffet for viral mutations.

Now that the Chinese have opened up and are traveling internationally while infected, it opens up the entire world to new waves of infections.

The virus has already spread to India and Taiwan, so testing of all arrivals may be necessary again.

Of course there will be a repeat from conservatives.......if the Liberals order testing they are anti-freedom and if they don't they are negligent.


----------



## james4beach

TomB16 said:


> R ~= 18


I'm just wondering what the hell is going on over there. How is it spreading this rapidly?

For example a study of omicron outbreaks, including some of the worst ones, found an R value from 2 to 5 at most as shown in this study.

How the does China end up with an R value of 16 or 18?


----------



## TomB16

james4beach said:


> How the does China end up with an R value of 16 or 18?


The R estimates I have seen are 18 or 19.

They haven't had previous infections, like we have. They don't have natural immunity. Our mRNA vaccines have not been all that effective; certainly, nothing in the same galaxy as their rating as cited by the FDA.


Let me point out that R = 18~19 is an estimate based on statistics that are questionable. Chinese data is not the most honest.

Next, I can't say for sure why it's spreading like wildfire over there. We also can't say why things have stabilized everywhere else in the world. Lots of people declare the vaccine to be a success but we've all had covid so we all have natural immunity and there has been very little study of natural immunity versus vaccine immunity. We have gone out of our way to specifically avoid any study which would compare the two immunity foundations.

Despite the tremendous viral load in China, their mortality rate is very low. Omicron has been excellent for herd immunity.

Now that it seems near certain COVID was originally leaked from a lab, I think we need to consider the idea that omicron was also created in a lab to create herd immunity that vaccines were not generating, both because of the way mRNA based vaccines work and also because a decent portion of the world simply didn't take the vaccine but mostly the former.


----------



## Beaver101

TomB16 said:


> The R estimates I have seen are 18 or 19.
> 
> They haven't had previous infections, like we have. They don't have natural immunity. Our mRNA vaccines have not been all that effective; certainly, nothing in the same galaxy as their rating as cited by the FDA.
> 
> 
> Let me point out that R = 18~19 is an estimate based on statistics that are questionable. * Chinese data is not the most honest.*
> 
> Next, I can't say for sure why it's spreading like wildfire over there. We also can't say why things have stabilized everywhere else in the world. Lots of people declare the vaccine to be a success but we've all had covid so we all have natural immunity and there has been very little study of natural immunity versus vaccine immunity. We have gone out of our way to specifically avoid any study which would compare the two immunity foundations.
> 
> *Despite the tremendous viral load in China, their mortality rate is very low. Omicron has been excellent for herd immunity.*
> 
> Now that it seems near certain COVID was originally leaked from a lab, I think we need to consider the idea that omicron was also created in a lab to create herd immunity that vaccines were not generating, both because of the way mRNA based vaccines work and also because a decent portion of the world simply didn't take the vaccine but mostly the former.


 ... how do you know their mortality rate is very low when above stated "_*Chinese data is not the most honest"? *_

And then there's the statement of Omicron has been excellent for herd immunity ... says who (not the WHO)?


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... how do you know their mortality rate is very low when above stated "_*Chinese data is not the most honest"? *_
> 
> And then there's the statement of Omicron has been excellent for herd immunity ... says who (not the WHO)?


Even if they are accurately reporting the deaths (which I doubt), it takes a while to die from covid. They are only getting infected today and the infections are still ramping up.

After one gets sick, it takes 2 weeks for the disease to drag on and turn into additional problems, like lung problems or pneumonia.
Then they go to the hospital, where it becomes 2-4 weeks of care.
Then another 1-2 weeks until it appears in the statistics. The same is true in Canada.

So reports of deaths can lag by as much as one or two *months.*


----------



## HappilyRetired

james4beach said:


> Even if they are accurately reporting the deaths (which I doubt), it takes a while to die from covid. They are only getting infected today and the infections are still ramping up.
> 
> After one gets sick, it takes 2 weeks for the disease to drag on and turn into additional problems, like lung problems or pneumonia.
> Then they go to the hospital, where it becomes 2-4 weeks of care.
> Then another 1-2 weeks until it appears in the statistics. The same is true in Canada.
> 
> So reports of deaths can lag by as much as one or two *months.*


The exact same reasoning applies to the shot.

Until numerous autopsies are done, we don't know if people are dying from Covid, with Covid, or from the shot.


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## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Even if they are accurately reporting the deaths (which I doubt), it takes a while to die from covid. They are only getting infected today and the infections are still ramping up.
> 
> After one gets sick, it takes 2 weeks for the disease to drag on and turn into additional problems, like lung problems or pneumonia.
> Then they go to the hospital, where it becomes 2-4 weeks of care.
> Then another 1-2 weeks until it appears in the statistics. The same is true in Canada.
> 
> So reports of deaths can lag by as much as one or two *months.*


 ... not according to Tom16 where he's supposedly to be getting his "honest" data from the UK I presume?


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## Beaver101

HappilyRetired said:


> The exact same reasoning applies to the shot.
> 
> Until numerous autopsies are done, we don't know if people are dying from Covid, with Covid, or from the shot.


 ... what does it matter if people are dying "from" or "with" Covid? 

And then there's the attempt to squeeze in a trolling spin ... "or from the (Covid) shot" ... like "boom, get the shot and the patient is dead within the week or better yet less than 24 hours" ... not even enough time for side-effects to take place .... LMAO.

If you were honest at all, why don't you just say outright, person died of myocarditis that was assumably acquired from the Covid-shot.


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## sags

Why the infection is spreading in China so quickly is the question that experts want answered.

The same variant has been discovered in the US and other countries and is not spreading at anywhere near that rate of infection.

Something doesn't add up. I am thinking it is a new variant, possibly from another Wuhan lab accidental release.

I figure it must be something really embarrassing for the Chinese, since they are so secretive about it.

An escaped variant may have been the reason for the sudden and severe China lockdowns, a significant obstacle for the virus until they were removed.

The big crowds protesting in the streets against the covid lockdowns inadvertently helped the virus spread to each other.

As the old saying goes......be careful what you wish for because you just might get it.


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## m3s

sags said:


> Something doesn't add up.


China locks down its population, welds the doors shuts, and beats their pets to death knowing full well they would protest

The world blocks all travel to/from China, Hong Kong and Macau in fear of the unknown. Now that the conditions are set, CCP release the lab grown antidote to their future bioweapon supercovid-23

The wuhan lab aka 23andMe has been collecting your genetic data to build bioweapons in Winnipeg all along


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## MrMatt

sags said:


> Why the infection is spreading in China so quickly is the question that experts want answered.
> 
> The same variant has been discovered in the US and other countries and is not spreading at anywhere near that rate of infection.
> 
> Something doesn't add up. I am thinking it is a new variant, possibly from another Wuhan lab accidental release.
> 
> I figure it must be something really embarrassing for the Chinese, since they are so secretive about it.
> 
> An escaped variant may have been the reason for the sudden and severe China lockdowns, a significant obstacle for the virus until they were removed.
> 
> The big crowds protesting in the streets against the covid lockdowns inadvertently helped the virus spread to each other.
> 
> As the old saying goes......be careful what you wish for because you just might get it.


The reason it doesn't add up is we don't have the real data from China.

It doesn't have to be embarrassing for China, they simply aren't as open.

Look at the US, they have their dysfunctionality on display, other cultures prefer to hide their problems.


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## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> The reason it doesn't add up is we don't have the real data from China.


Right. It doesn't add up, and China isn't sharing the data.

I think the right move is to be cautious in this kind of situation. Perhaps it's as simple as omicron being let loose in a population with very poor immunity. (that would be the "good" scenario).

Something worse could be going on too.


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## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Right. It doesn't add up, and China isn't sharing the data.
> 
> I think the right move is to be cautious in this kind of situation. Perhaps it's as simple as omicron being let loose in a population with very poor immunity. (that would be the "good" scenario).
> 
> Something worse could be going on too.


All populations have poor immunity, that's the problem with Coronaviruses


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## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> All populations have poor immunity, that's the problem with Coronaviruses


Heavily vaccinated populations have at least some immunity, and people who've caught it before have some immunity too.

Canada/US/Europe have a "hybrid immunity" due to a large number of prior infections + strong vaccination.

I realize it does not stop later infections but there's still some immunity there. And one can argue that our hybrid immunity, due to so many natural infections, puts is in a reasonably good spot.


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## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Heavily vaccinated populations have at least some immunity, and people who've caught it before have some immunity too.
> 
> Canada/US/Europe have a "hybrid immunity" due to a large number of prior infections + strong vaccination.
> 
> I realize it does not stop later infections but there's still some immunity there. And one can argue that our hybrid immunity, due to so many natural infections, puts is in a reasonably good spot.


But it's not really immunity, we might just have a better response.
We'll still get and spread it.


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## andrewf

With an R of 18 or 20, it's not surprising that it is exploding in China. That is about as infectious as viruses get. Their R value is much higher because there is so little immunity from vaccination and prior infection. I'm not sure China could have really let the genie out of the bottle without it exploding like this. Maybe they could have flattened the wave slightly, but inevitably almost everyone was going to get infected this winter.


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## sags

The same virus is already in the US, India and other countries and isn't exploding in infections.

That is what concerns the scientists. Why isn't it exploding here the same as in China ?

Vaccines and natural immunity don't prevent infections at all. They train the body to fight the virus as soon as someone is infected.

It doesn't appear that global scientists are convinced that is the difference maker either.

But..we shall see. The countries are getting blood samples from Chinese travelers and can apply the science to it.

I read reports somewhere that the US government intelligence agencies had people in China gathering samples and getting them returned to the US.

One way or another we should find out soon enough.


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## MrMatt

sags said:


> The same virus is already in the US, India and other countries and isn't exploding in infections.
> 
> That is what concerns the scientists. Why isn't it exploding here the same as in China ?


From the beginning the data from China (and a few other countries) has been consistently different with the rest of the world.
Maybe those countries, which have histories of not being very transparent, aren't being very open about what is going on?

Or all the other countries are in a massive conspiracy, and have been able to keep it up for years?
Sorry our governments aren't that competent.


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## james4beach

Here's a good piece on a Long Covid experience. This is really what scares me about Covid.


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