# Safety Deposit Box or Home Safe (or Neither)?



## lb71

What are people's opinions on the issue? Not sure which way to go. I'm more looking at a small space, to hold important papers and a small portable drive.

A home safe provides convenience and fire proof are available. However, it can be carried out by a determined theif. 

A bank gives you a buffer, and I would think an extra layer of security. But eventually, a home safe would pay for itself.


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## mfd

I would go the route of safety deposit box. I have a feeling that low end safes(sub $500) give a false sense of security. They probably aren't as resistant to theft and fire as you would think. These are only assumptions though


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## canabiz

Good thread! 

How much does it cost to rent a safe from the bank ? Or is it usually free if you have multiple financial products with said bank ?

My opinion on this is I like to keep the very valuable and sentimental items in a safe in the bank while other items that require more usage i.e. insurance policies can be stored in a fire-proof safe at home.


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## CanadianCapitalist

canabiz said:


> Good thread!
> 
> How much does it cost to rent a safe from the bank ? Or is it usually free if you have multiple financial products with said bank ?
> 
> My opinion on this is I like to keep the very valuable and sentimental items in a safe in the bank while other items that require more usage i.e. insurance policies can be stored in a fire-proof safe at home.


We rent a safe deposit box from our bank. Costs about $60 per year.


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## lb71

CanadianCapitalist said:


> We rent a safe deposit box from our bank. Costs about $60 per year.


That's not bad. Was this price negotiated?

Also, these are tax deductible, so the net cost can be up to 50% less.


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## michika

I have one of each.

We're renovating our basement at this time and are taken the opportunity to upgrade our current safe to a hidden/secret one. Like mentioned a determined thief can, with some help, walk out with your safe if its a smaller model.


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## nick24

I am going to get a bank safety deposit box. I will use it to keep valuable items, such as passport, marriage, birth certificates as well as investment advice slips. This means that I can claim the cost of the safety deposit box in my taxes each year as it is a carrying charge. 

This is what the CRA has to say > http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/ncm-tx/rtrn/cmpltng/ddctns/lns206-236/221/menu-eng.html

The important bit being "Fees to manage or take care of your investments (other than administration fees you paid for your registered retirement savings plan or registered retirement income fund), including *safety deposit box charges*".

CIBC is the closest bank to my place of work. I think they charge around $50 a year, with access whenever the branch is open.


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## Mockingbird

canabiz said:


> Good thread!
> 
> How much does it cost to rent a safe from the bank ? Or is it usually free if you have multiple financial products with said bank ?
> 
> My opinion on this is I like to keep the very valuable and sentimental items in a safe in the bank while other items that require more usage i.e. insurance policies can be stored in a fire-proof safe at home.


Here's a recent price list from CIBC


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## furgy

I rent a safe deposit box at CIBC , $120 per year for the largest box they have.


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## George

We've got a safety deposit box at the bank (about $45/year) and we're considering getting a safe for at home. A few of things to keep in mind, though:

Safe deposit boxes aren't always tax-deductible. You need to use the box to manage your investments (i.e. as a place to store a stock certificate or savings bond) in order for it to legitimately qualify as a deduction.

Home safes face three major threats: fire damage, water damage, and theft. Unless you spend a LOT of money, it's very difficult to find a safe that has a high amount of protection against all three threats.

Many "fire boxes" are good against fire but not against a thief, since the thief could just take the whole thing and crowbar it open later. 

Many good-quality safes can be bolted to the floor and are difficult to break into, but provide limited protection in the event of a fire. 

A tubular floor safe provides extremely good protection against both fire and theft, but must be installed directly into concrete in a basement and can be vulnerable to flood damage.

Fire-proof boxes are generally designed to keep internal temperatures low enough so that papers won't burn. *Computer discs and hard drives will be destroyed at a much lower temperature*. If you're planning to store any sort of computer media, make sure you get a safe/box that is rated for that type of use, or just put the drive/disc in a safe-deposit box, where fires aren't a big concern since banks are protected by sprinkler systems.

One last thought - items that require last-minute access should NOT be stored in a safe-deposit box if possible, because you'll only have access to them when the bank is open. Examples of items that are better stored in a home safe: Wills and funeral arrangements, passports.


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## Mockingbird

George said:


> We've got a safety deposit box at the bank (about $45/year) and we're considering getting a safe for at home. A few of things to keep in mind, though:
> 
> Safe deposit boxes aren't always tax-deductible. You need to use the box to manage your investments (i.e. as a place to store a stock certificate or savings bond) in order for it to legitimately qualify as a deduction.
> 
> Home safes face three major threats: fire damage, water damage, and theft. Unless you spend a LOT of money, it's very difficult to find a safe that has a high amount of protection against all three threats.
> 
> Many "fire boxes" are good against fire but not against a thief, since the thief could just take the whole thing and crowbar it open later.
> 
> Many good-quality safes can be bolted to the floor and are difficult to break into, but provide limited protection in the event of a fire.
> 
> A tubular floor safe provides extremely good protection against both fire and theft, but must be installed directly into concrete in a basement and can be vulnerable to flood damage.
> 
> Fire-proof boxes are generally designed to keep internal temperatures low enough so that papers won't burn. *Computer discs and hard drives will be destroyed at a much lower temperature*. If you're planning to store any sort of computer media, make sure you get a safe/box that is rated for that type of use, or just put the drive/disc in a safe-deposit box, where fires aren't a big concern since banks are protected by sprinkler systems.
> 
> One last thought - items that require last-minute access should NOT be stored in a safe-deposit box if possible, because you'll only have access to them when the bank is open. Examples of items that are better stored in a home safe: Wills and funeral arrangements, passports.


Very good points, George.
I would attest esp. to "passports"


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## George

In a previous post I mentioned that floor safes can be vulnerable to flood damage, but in doing a little research it seems that some of these safes have been designed to be relatively flood-resistant. This floor safe which is sold at Costco for about $170 is billed as "waterproof" if installed correctly.

It'd be a weekend job to install a safe such as this one, and it would require that you have a home with a basement (and therefore a concrete floor), but it would provide a very high level of security from fire, theft, *and* flood damage.

Water damage isn't usually something you think about when you buy a safe, but it's important. If your house is on fire, the safe doesn't just need to protect the contents from getting burned - it has to protect them from getting soaked as well.


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## mfd

George said:


> In a previous post I mentioned that floor safes can be vulnerable to flood damage, but in doing a little research it seems that some of these safes have been designed to be relatively flood-resistant. This floor safe which is sold at Costco for about $170 is billed as "waterproof" if installed correctly.
> 
> It'd be a weekend job to install a safe such as this one, and it would require that you have a home with a basement (and therefore a concrete floor), but it would provide a very high level of security from fire, theft, *and* flood damage.
> 
> Water damage isn't usually something you think about when you buy a safe, but it's important. If your house is on fire, the safe doesn't just need to protect the contents from getting burned - it has to protect them from getting soaked as well.




According to the website it looks like the company hasn't rated that safe for fire


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## George

mfd said:


> According to the website it looks like the company hasn't rated that safe for fire


True, but when installed in concrete and in a basement it should provide quite good fire protection.


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## Taxsaver

Let's say I put my gold in a bank safe. I would be afraid that an employee gets the key and steals my gold. They surely have the key for it.


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## Plugging Along

Taxsaver said:


> Let's say I put my gold in a bank safe. I would be afraid that an employee gets the key and steals my gold. They surely have the key for it.


In our bank, they actually state that the bank does not have an extra key. If you lose it you must pay the money (I think $100) to get a lock smith to get a new lock.


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## Taxsaver

Thanks for the info, Plugging Along!!


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## the-royal-mail

Very interesting thread - thanks for all the participation!


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## Seth

My vote is for a WELL HIDDEN decent home safe.

Spend 500.00 On a decent fire rated safe, bolt it to the wall / floor and HIDE it well.

Certain items you're going to want immediate access to in times of extreme need... 

What if the global markets collapse and your bank becomes insolvent?

How long will you wait in line during a bank run to access your most precious belongings? 

Don't think it can happen? I CAN happen and has happened before.

Keep some cash on hand, at home in small bills... this will come in handy during times of prolonged power failure.

Ever been in a store checkout line, arms full of goods only to find out debit's down? It's a sinking feeling... that is unless you've got cash reserves!


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## Cal

TD gives me a free safety deposit box....can't remember why though, it has been awhile.


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## Agrivar

*TD Select Service Account*

One perk of the Select Service Bank Account at TD is a free small safety deposit box (subject to availability).

http://www.tdcanadatrust.com/accounts/select.jsp

Agrivar.

(that's probably why Cal)


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## Plugging Along

We the TD account for free too. I'm too cheap to pay for one, but I have found that we lost the key, so that's not too good.

We are currently using our home safe, and that's where most of our stuff is. I find there's not much that I really need to keep in the bank safe. Maybe our will, but then that will be a problem for the executor to get to.

All of the other things in our safe, we usually need on a 'fairly' regular basis. Passports, birth certificates...etc../ .


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## Taxsaver

Plugging Along said:


> We the TD account for free too. I'm too cheap to pay for one, but I have found that we lost the key, so that's not too good.
> 
> We are currently using our home safe, and that's where most of our stuff is. I find there's not much that I really need to keep in the bank safe. Maybe our will, but then that will be a problem for the executor to get to.
> 
> All of the other things in our safe, we usually need on a 'fairly' regular basis. Passports, birth certificates...etc../ .


You can pay $15 for a second one. Give it to someone else you can trust.


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## xvz12Venture

*Safe selection?*

Hi,

I am looking at one of these B1515's, for PM's, used bolted down to the basement floor. I don't really plan to keep documents in it. 

Primary reason, I have access to one locally at $470 cdn.

Comments, experience or alternatives?


Thanks,

Brian H.


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## v_tofu

Have a safety deposit box with the bank. $40 dollar/yr fee waived with multi product deal.

Also have a home safe bolted to the basement concrete, hidden wall compartment, and a "fake" safe with a few dollars, and some jewelry trinkets not really worth anything.

Just a note, the safes you can buy at walmart can be easily broken into for a professional theif that knows what he's doing.

Also, Fire proof and heat proof are 2 different things. There are lots of instances where people were able to retrieve their safes after a fire, but the contents were completely melted. As with anything, you get what you pay for. 

Most cases a walmart safe is fine and good enough. If you have something you TRULY cherish, then definitely consider a safety box or something much more heavy duty.


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## Dave

For those safes in concrete, how do you install them ? When the house is build ? I can not imagine drilling a hole in my basement floor and cracking my fundation.


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## donaldhumiston

True it is a very interesting thread. I learned some. And I think I now know what to get for my need just in case. Thanks and keep the thread going!


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## kcowan

Dave said:


> For those safes in concrete, how do you install them ? When the house is build ? I can not imagine drilling a hole in my basement floor and cracking my fundation.


Driling the hole is a challenge. A hammer drill with an industrial bit will make it easy.I rented one. It does not crack the concrete.

Make sure the safe is fireproof and waterproof. Don't take any shortcuts on the installation.

I also have a safe deposit box for things like wills and fire insurance policies. But not jewelry. Jewelry need to be accessible or sold.


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## MoreMiles

*Warning!!!*

Please read this!

Bank safety deposit boxes can be opened by a government order. In the days there was not enough gold, the American government has ordered its citizen to surrender gold... by opening boxes against people's wish. 
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=4832471&page=3
http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/5.08/ripoff.html

Also, bank safety deposit boxes have been opened by the banks by mistake for "lost contact". Many lawsuits many been initiated... banks claim that the box was abandoned as they could not reach the owner, whereas the owner is still banking actively with a chequing account in the same branch!
This is a true story in CANADA, at Bank of Montreal 
http://southshorenow.ca/archives/viewer.php?sctn=2000/101800/news&article=3

Furthermore, I was told by the local banks that they DO NOT change keys when previous owner return their keys. So there is a potential that the old owner can try to say "I need to access box 123", forge the signature of the new owner, and voila!

Do you know any of these 3 facts? I guess not! Do you still trust the bank safety box after reading these? You be the judge!


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## MoreMiles

Also, if you have not heard of gold confiscation in an economical crisis, here is the link:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_04/willis112804.html

People believe a government would not pass similar laws again in the future. Nobody knows. People believe our Canadian government is smarter in decision making... I'm not sure, after seeing how teenager, Vegas vacationer, and students got elected into our Canadian federal government. Your future is being decided by people that have never earned asset yet or held other jobs, yet, scary, isn't it?


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## Dana

MoreMiles said:


> Also, bank safety deposit boxes have been opened by the banks by mistake for "lost contact". Many lawsuits many been initiated... banks claim that the box was abandoned as they could not reach the owner, whereas the owner is still banking actively with a chequing account in the same branch!
> 
> Furthermore, I was told by the local banks that they DO NOT change keys when previous owner return their keys. So there is a potential that the old owner can try to say "I need to access box 123", forge the signature of the new owner, and voila!
> 
> Do you know any of these 3 facts? I guess not! Do you still trust the bank safety box after reading these? You be the judge!



I have been the person at the bank who is present when SDBs have to be opened because of "no contact", "abandonment", court order, lost keys, or even sabotage and I can tell you that it is *not* an easy process for the bank to open a SDB. Firstly, the bank has to prove the reason that they are opening the box, they sometimes require permission from the court. At least two branch employees, one head office employee (corporate security), the locksmith and the client or client representative (depending on the circumstances) must be present. The box is drilled open the contents are catalogued, photographed then the box is sealed and intialled all over before it is moved into another vault. 

It's quite a process, and in my experience it is only done once per year when they try to do them all at once (unless by court order). I have never heard of the wrong box being drilled by error. I can't imagine it happens very often. 

Also, it is true that the boxes are not re-keyed between clients. This is because SDB keys cannot be copied (hence the box has to be drilled if you lose your keys) and security measures (signature cards, ID, etc) are put into place to ensure the right people have access to their own SDB. I have had more than one client keep the 2nd key in the SDB "for safe keeping" - not a lie - and then not see the error in that plan until they lose the first key. 

I was once in a situation where a disgruntled client left dead fish and cracked eggs in a SDB then abandoned it. *It smelled REALLY BAD!* It was awful and took a really long time to drill because we had to figure out which one of the hundreds of boxes it was and then seek permission to drill it. 

The biggest downside to me of SDBs is that you are subject to the banks hours which aren't always convenient and if you die it can take a while for the executor to gain access to the box since the bank has to do their due diligence and make sure all the paperwork is in order first. 

Also the size can be limiting, depending what you want to keep in it.


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## Sherlock

I store my important information encrypted on my computer. I back it up when I make important changes.

What kind of stuff do you guys put in your safes, and why can't you store it digitally and encrypt it?


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## daddybigbucks

Dana said:


> I was once in a situation where a disgruntled client left dead fish and cracked eggs in a SDB then abandoned it. *It smelled REALLY BAD!* It was awful and took a really long time to drill because we had to figure out which one of the hundreds of boxes it was and then seek permission to drill it.
> 
> .


thats pretty disgusting.

how can someone feel proud of doing that? its like a spoiled brat three year old idea.
and some people wonder why life always sh!ts on them


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## kcowan

Sherlock said:


> What kind of stuff do you guys put in your safes, and why can't you store it digitally and encrypt it?


Jewelry and passports.


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## Plugging Along

Sherlock said:


> I store my important information encrypted on my computer. I back it up when I make important changes.
> 
> What kind of stuff do you guys put in your safes, and why can't you store it digitally and encrypt it?


Wills, passports, jewelry, birth & marriage certificates, stock certificates, cash (collectors bills), gold and silver. Plus, I have the copies of the most irreplacable things (the back ups of my photos of my kids, and a few key documents) burned on dvd and stored in my safe.

If you computer dies, then could be in trouble if you don't have a good back up. If there is a fire, then you need that back up in a safe or offsite. 

My husband is in the industry, and you wouldn't believe how many people have their whole business files or critical files (encrypted or not) on a computer and lose them. If the crash is bad enough, it could be a few thousand dollars to retrieve, if it's possible.


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## Sherlock

Yes your computer can crash and even your backups can burn up in a fire, but if your data is so important then you can rent server space for a few bucks a year and store it somewhere online in encrypted form. There are many companies which provide this service online and they have many redundant backups in many locations, and their security far exceeds that of a safe in your house.

Other than jewelery (which I have none of), I don't see anything mentioned that requires a safe. In today's paperless society things like birth certificates or stock certificates or wills are kept in digital form by the issuer. There is no reason to have a physical copy at your house, and even if you ever needed a paper copy you can always ask them to mail it to you.

I don't see why a passport (or birth certificate) needs to be kept so safe, I keep mine in my car, and even if it gets lost I can always request another. Are you worried about someone stealing it in order to steal your identity? I don't think there's any damage someone can do to you if they have your passport or birth certificate, as soon as you notice it's missing you simply report it stolen and they issue you another and the previous one becomes invalid.

As for owning physical gold/silver, why? Isn't it always better to own a gold or precious metals ETF?


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## Plugging Along

Sure, you can get all of those things replaced, but the time and cost to do so it often more than the safe. For wills, if you do not have the original signature, it is not valid. So if you can't get the original copy, the electronic one will do you no good. 

The collectors coins and money I have aren't any good in a scanned version. It's in the same category as jewellry.

For gold and silver, it was stuff that has been handed down over the years. I suppose I could sell it, and invest it, but that's really not the point. 

When I look at the cost to replace the contents (of just the legal documents) of my home safe, and the effort and time involved, it doesn't make sense not to have a safe. We have server space rented, and own our web hosting company, so data's not an issue. For some parents the family photos are the most important thing, and the cost to store photos indefinately in multiple server spaces is more than getting a little safe.


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## ramy98

A couple points to remember with regards to Safes and Safety deposit boxes:

1. Safety Deposit Boxes

You never truly own something unless you have it in your possesion. There are laws on the books that can make the government take control of whatever they want for natural security interests etc...

We live in crazy times you dont want to get stuck with your pants down; who knows if a major currency crises is coming down the road maybe they close many of the banks for a few days.... You must have access to your stuff at all times.. IMO...

2. Safes

Never believe that because you have a safe that you are GTG. I remember of reading an article of a Ontario gun owner who had his whole firearm collection stolen from his top of the line safe... It took the burglers 3 days or something to break into the safe while he was on vacation.


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