# The Hassle Free way to Buying a New Car



## Mookie (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi all, I’m looking to buy a new car for cash, no trade-in. I know exactly what make, model, and trim level I want, but I absolutely hate the whole sales process around negotiating a deal. Is there an easier way, or is it just inevitable that I have to sit there in the showroom haggling with a car salesman for 4 hours to make a deal?

I’ve heard of CarCostCanada and Unhaggle, and have gotten “so called” invoice price reports from Unhaggle, but are these really the dealer invoice costs? I’ve heard that they may not be.

Why can’t I just go in and pick up a new car at a fair price like I go to the grocery store to pick up a loaf of bread?


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

These days with the internet, it's much easier to come up with accurate information about what new vehicles sell for, what others have paid, etc.

I bought a new pickup truck this past summer and found it pretty quick and painless. I am satisfied that I paid a fair price.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I hear ya Mookie. We want to pay cash for our next car as well. 

What in particular are you looking at?


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## tavogl (Oct 1, 2014)

Hi Mookie,

I used Unhaggle a year ago to buy our Hyundai Sonata, it was an Ok experience but there's still negotiating room with the price they usually offer. I got 3k discounted from the original price they showed me on Unhaggle.

If I were you I'd email a bunch of dealers asking for the exact make, model and options you want and ask for a written offer, lots of them wont play that game, but once you have a few making offers u can make them play each other do with the numbers they provide you. Dealers love people who are ready to buy, and will usually work with you if you show you are ready to buy. Offer them a deposit so they know you are serious. (deposits are always refundable)

I have helped a few friends with this and I can tell you, unless you know someone at the dealer who's a straight shooter you'll have to negotiate if you want the "best price".

regards


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## Mookie (Feb 29, 2012)

My Own Advisor said:


> I hear ya Mookie. We want to pay cash for our next car as well.
> 
> What in particular are you looking at?


Nothing fancy - a 2016 Nissan Micra SR with automatic transmission, mostly for my daughter to use to commute to university.

According to Unhaggle:
Base invoice price is $16,210
Freight/PDI/air tax etc: $1,730
Dealer incentive (for 2016 model): Subtract $3,000
GST/PST: $1,793
Total Cost: $16,733

I just don't know if the unhaggle report is reliable or not.


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

Only work for cash deal

1. get a carcostcanada report for the exact model you want, to get their cost and all the dealer incentives
2. phone a dealer and ask if he has your model on the lot, repeat until you find one
3. hang up
4. call back later and ask to speak to the sales manager
5. tell him you are ready to buy the model the next day but at MSRP + 3% margin, minus all the incentives. Inform him of your strict no gimmicks, no hassle, no extra bullshit policy

worked for me, i saved about 8k.

you could also email all the dealers of your region with your conditions (MSRP + 3% margin, minus all the incentives) Make sure to mention that you dont want to talk on the phone, negociate, etc. just buy a car. One of them will accept.


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

Next time i am pushing this to the next level by FAXING them a one-pager RFP with my conditions.


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## tavogl (Oct 1, 2014)

larry81 said:


> Only work for cash deal
> 
> 1. get a carcostcanada report for the exact model you want, to get the MRSP and all the dealer incentives
> 2. phone a dealer and ask if he has your model on the lot, repeat until you find one
> ...


MSRP is what they want for the car, why give them 3% more lol?
NEVER pay MSRP, that's a suggested price, by the dealer itself, they print those stickers. with all the dealer added options... 

I also have to say that this will vary depending on brand, Hyundai and Kia tend to have HUGE discounts on their cars, not so much toyota or honda, but def still some play room with price there.

again, DO NOT pay MSRP .


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Mookie said:


> Nothing fancy - a 2016 Nissan Micra SR with automatic transmission, mostly for my daughter to use to commute to university.
> 
> According to Unhaggle:
> Base invoice price is $16,210
> ...


That looks about right for a 2016 model. 

I doubt you would get a $3000 discount (20%) on a 2017 model as the dealer doesn't earn much on a $16,000 vehicle.

We bought a year old model truck (2014 model in 2015) listed at $48,000 for $35,000 with a GM employee discount as well. That is a 25% discount but it is 3 times the price. The cost was for the truck only, pre-taxes, undercoating etc. We also got 2.99% financing which is something to look into if the manufacturer is offering it. Student discount maybe as well ?

It will still have a full warranty, but will have lost 2 years of depreciation instead of 1. 

It won't matter much on a $16,000 vehicle a few years from now though. In a few years the mileage will be a more important factor.


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## coptzr (Jan 18, 2013)

Has anyone tried www.carmigo.com? 

I almost made deal on a new Nissan with the $3000 off if paid in cash incentive, could not believe it.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

According to Nissan's website, a 2017 Nissan Micra SR with auto transmission unit price is $17,165.

It appears a 2016 for $13,000 base price...........is $4000 discount or roughly 25% cheaper than a 2017 model.

Nissan is offering 1.99% financing on some models.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

OK. Some background. The bullcrap that a consumer is put through, when buying a car, is the consumers fault, not the dealerships. If consumers were not more then happy to buy a car where the price was so low the dealer lost $2,000 and the salesman generated nothing in commission because of his/her inability to get a higher price, then this process would be different. It is pretty hard to put a sticker price on a car, when all that has to happen is their competitor give a consumer the idea that they might get a better price and the business all goes to the competitor.

This thread is a case in point. Obviously you are trying to get the lowest price possible. You call it a fair price but it is the lowest price that you will ever consider to be fair. Those ideas of calling the dealers to get their best price or using emails and only responding to the stupid salespeople who respond to you, will not work. What will happen is one of those dealers will simply lie to you. They will put on the email the idea that their price is so much better then anyone else's. Then when you get to their dealership and after the test drive, etc., etc., they will point out their error. They will apologize for the misunderstanding and then quote you the much higher price. Remember an email is not a quote. And a quote is not an contract of sale. These guys are so far ahead of the average consumer. Everything on this thread they have been aware of for years. 

So in a nutshell, the ethical salesman will not respond to your emails/phone calls in the way you want them to and only the unethical will respond and everything they respond with will not be real. So good luck.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I pick out the vehicle I want...in my last case a Jeep Wrangler...figure out the price I want to make a deal at...and show up with cash in my pocket. Signed a deal after 1 hour of listening why they couldn't make the deal...all in + GST. Next day I went to pick up the Jeep they wanted like $800 more for bs like freight . I was ready to walk so they caved in. All in all a horrible experience...

I think there's room for a car buyer business similar to a realty company.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I think you just made my point. Every idea here assumes that the dealership will act in an honest and ethical manner. I am sure they think they do but they keep employed many of the salespeople who do not. In Eder's case they simply lied to him to pull him along and away from their competitors. He still bought the car from them. I don't blame him. All dealerships seem to act the same way and let's face it. They have the cars and we need them.

Anyway, that is what they will do to combat the ideas presented so far. I wish I had a solution but I don't. Unless the entire industry ALL goes "no dicker sticker" which I doubt, then we have to resolve ourselves that if we want to buy a car we need to go through some BS. I do envy the ignorant who don't even know what the dealerships did to them. Oh to be so innocent. What bliss it must be.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The biggest GM dealer in Canada by far was located in Toronto. 

One day GM came along and closed their warehouse station. They were bankrupt.

If a dealership doesn't earn enough profit to pay the manufacturer for the product, plus all their overhead and expenses, they go out of business. A full size dealership has a lot of overhead expenses.

A person may get a supersized discount if they hit the dealership at the right time and are willing to take a vehicle the dealership wants to get rid off.....even at a loss.

Maybe they got a pink Cadillac on the lot that nobody will buy and has been sitting around for a year or so. 

They would probably sell it cheaper to get rid of it. The dealership may have paid GM for the vehicle and the owner has his own money tied up in it now.

On the other hand, if a certain model is a "hot seller" they aren't going to reduce their inventory by selling it cheap when they can get full price for it from the next customer. All that would accomplish is the dealership has to order another one and wait for it to arrive.

Even GM employees are refused certain vehicles when they first come out. The Pontiac Solstice was an example. Sometimes it is Corvettes.

The dealers had lineups of people who wanted them and inventory was spread thin, so they weren't interested in selling one for a lower price.

There is a lot more involved in new auto sales than a simple retail transaction.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

sags said:


> On the other hand, if a certain model is a "hot seller" they aren't going to reduce their inventory by selling it cheap when they can get full price for it. All that would accomplish is the dealership has to order another one and wait for it to arrive.
> 
> Even GM employees are refused certain vehicles when they first come out. The Pontiac Solstice was an example. Sometimes it is Corvettes.
> 
> ...


Good points. I have had experience with being a Corvette purchaser and sags is correct. At some times, in some years, one can have a fistful of cash to wave around and there's no inventory. Not a situation in which one is going to get a great "deal" on a Vette or other vehicles where demand outstrips supply. I have also ordered a Corvette and found that, in that year for that model, they had more orders than cars. So I did not get one. The one time that happened, I was given some "incentive" to leave my order in for the next year. But let's suppose they offered me the last one made that year. Doubtful I could dicker on price very much. They would tell me to get lost and sell to someone else for more money.

This past summer, when I bought our new truck (all cash, no trade or financing), I got a reasonable deal because at that time there was a fair inventory and sales were not that brisk. Every dealer had a few of the trucks I wanted on their lot. I spent some time online, including on various forums dedicated to motor vehicles and purchasing same, so I had a fair idea of what I should expect to pay. I was shopping in May. I told the dealer that ended up selling me the truck that I did not really require the truck before August, when I was planning a long road trip. So, even after arriving at a final price with which I was content, I said I'd come back in awhile, because time was on my side. Within a few days I got a call from the dealer offering a $2,000 discount if I bought for cash by June 1st. So I did. 

I left the truck with the dealer until August, since I had other vehicles to drive in the interim. Come August, that particular model had enjoyed good sales for a couple of months and none could be found on Vancouver Island. When I did go and pick up the truck, I was told I could likely sell at that point for a small profit. Of course I was not interested. I just wanted to head off on our trip. But just an illustration of how these things go. 

So sags is right. Lots of variables. Nonetheless, in this internet age, with a modest expenditure of time and effort one can get a good handle on what's out there, what others are paying for the same product, what is in short supply and strong demand and vice versa, all knowledge that will help one deal with the BS to which OptsyEagle has referred.


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## Benting (Dec 21, 2016)

I absolutely hate buying a car because of this haggling. Every time I agreed and signed on the purchase contract. Always had a doubt of being cheated. Well. there is a dealer just started with no haggle policy north of Toronto. All salespersons do not get commission but fixed monthly pay. All cars have a fixed price, no haggle needed. Only thing is not the car you OP are looking for.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

After talking to my mechanic yesterday, someone that sees cars and trucks of all shapes and sizes, he told me this:

1. Consider buying a 2-3 year old used KIA or Hyundai or Toyota or Honda for your next car. Avoid buying new cars due to depreciation right off the lot. You might as well light a match and burn $2,000 or $3,000 right away in front of your eyes. 
2. Pay cash if you can.
3. To get the best deal, shop around at, at least, 3 dealerships.
4. Check black books and online prices.
5. Short-list your dealer and negotiate - ask for extras to be thrown in such as all weather car mats, etc.
6. If you don't get your deal - move on.

Good advice I thought.


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

I mean Dealer Invoice price, not MSRP, MSRP is the sticker price as you said !


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## daddybigbucks (Jan 30, 2011)

OptsyEagle said:


> OK. Some background. The bullcrap that a consumer is put through, when buying a car, is the consumers fault, not the dealerships. If consumers were not more then happy to buy a car where the price was so low the dealer lost $2,000 and the salesman generated nothing in commission because of his/her inability to get a higher price, then this process would be different. It is pretty hard to put a sticker price on a car, when all that has to happen is their competitor give a consumer the idea that they might get a better price and the business all goes to the competitor.
> k.


I disagree with your post. The dealerships joined together to create a monopoly to take the competition out of the negotiating. 
If the dealerships were debanded, you would see the prices naturally drop to a healthy profit margin.
Its the same as oil companies, they took out the competition act, so now they control supply and demand so we pay $1.25/L at $40/bbl oil when 8 years ago we payed $1.25/L at $130/bbl oil.

Best advise i can give is to try and enjoy the process.
Pit dealerships against each other and use public domains (kijiji) as a price reference because competitive laws dictate public domains.

Cash really isn't an incentive for dealerships as they make more money on financing. The only selling point on cash is you can tell the salesman, you can get this deal done right now to save them time.

I work contracts for a living so i enjoy the competitive process, but i admit car dealerships are one of the best out there for negotiating. 
Its always funny to me when someone says "I got a great deal on this car from a dealership". It ALWAYS turns out to be a lemon or overpaid.

They know exactly where the profit line is and will not go under that line so they will always make money. the point is just to minimize their gravy.


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

My wife and I purchased a new vehicle for her to drive last year. She was undecided about the model so we visited a number of dealerships. We found that there are significant differences in the way that dealers approach the process.

Some dealers follow the old 70s style process. The sales manager hides in the back while the commissioned sales person pretends to be negotiating with him on your behalf. It's a charade to entice you to pay more for the car than you needed to. We tried to avoid such dealerships.

Other dealers are more straightforward. The sales manager will negotiation face to face and strive to ensure a pleasant and straightforward experience.. Those are the dealerships that we prefer.

My wife and I used consumer reports to obtain dealer invoice pricing and average price for the vehicle. We also checked the manufacturers site to make sure that we were familiar with manufacturers incentives. Then we went in and asks the sales manager to give us his best possible price to get us to sign immediately. The offered price was good and we signed after a few minor details were ironed out. 

We probably paid more than some buyers, less than others. We came away feeling that we didn't get ripped off, and that is all that matters.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Costco sells a lot of cars in the US.

http://fortune.com/2016/10/06/costco-cars-membership-program/

The Canadian website doesn't have any vehicles offered right now. It looks like they just finished up a SeaRay boat sales promotion.


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## iherald (Apr 18, 2009)

I did the email approach for a friend's mom. The best advice I can give is to make up a separate email address. I'd specifically say not to put me on any mailing list, and I still get huge amounts of spam. I did save 15% on the monthly lease by doing it this way though so it was worth it..


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## scottyhoz (Jan 17, 2017)

My best advice is to simply be informed with invoice prices, dealer incentives etc. With this info in hand their quote is easier to understand and disect. Based on your research select a model and set a price you think is fair and stick to it, don't get caught up in the game. Flag all of the random fees they try to cushion the deal with (glass etching, nitrogen tire inflation etc.) and really push back and refuse these. 

Hindsight is 20/20 so at the end of the day if you get the car you want at the price you want take the deal, drive away and don't look back.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

olivaw said:


> ...We probably paid more than some buyers, less than others. We came away feeling that we didn't get ripped off, and that is all that matters.


Same thing in my case. I’ve bought an Automobile Protection Association report to get the fair price. 
https://www.apa.ca/purchasing.asp#new
When the salesman started talking MSRP I’ve showed him the report. He went away to “convince the manager” and this was it. Mind you, he upsold me on a rust protection electronic gizmo, but I was really curious if it works. In the past I sprayed yearly at Krown. I do not see any rust, so who knows? BTW, in the past I used the CarCostCanada for the price.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Parkuser said:


> Same thing in my case. I’ve bought an Automobile Protection Association report to get the fair price.
> https://www.apa.ca/purchasing.asp#new
> When the salesman started talking MSRP I’ve showed him the report. He went away to “convince the manager” and this was it. Mind you, he upsold me on a rust protection electronic gizmo, but I was really curious if it works. In the past I sprayed yearly at Krown. I do not see any rust, so who knows? BTW, in the past I used the CarCostCanada for the price.


Curious what the dealer carged you for the electronic rust inhibitor and how long you have had the car and the conditions you drive in ie salt or no salt on roads, slush etc.
They sell these things at CTC and I have wondered about them.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

twa2w said:


> Curious what the dealer carged you for the electronic rust inhibitor and how long you have had the car and the conditions you drive in ie salt or no salt on roads, slush etc.
> They sell these things at CTC and I have wondered about them.


Sonata 2011 bought Fall 2010; for the electronic module and some surface paint treatment charge was around $1100; they use a lot of salt in Ottawa.


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## leoc2 (Dec 28, 2010)

Two sources that say the electronic rust inhibitor don't work

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...l-an-electronic-rust-inhibitor/article535224/

http://corrosion-doctors.org/Car/car-electronic-rust.htm


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## Mookie (Feb 29, 2012)

Well, I bought my brand new Red 2016 Nissan Micra SR with automatic transmission a few days ago. 

Nissan was offering a $3000 incentive for the 2016 model when paying cash, which expired Jan 31st. Since I wasn’t in a rush to get the car, I didn’t let the deadline pressure me. Then my wife noticed that in February they were now offering a $3500 incentive, so we decided to jump on it. (We’ll see in March if it could have been more LOL)

My wife ended up calling a bunch of different Nissan dealerships, and got them to email or text her their “best offers”. She asked them all to quote her only the bottom line total amount after all incentives, taxes and fees to make sure she was comparing apples to apples between dealerships. Then when she had some tangible numbers, she went back to the others to see if they would beat it. This process shaved another $750 or so off the bottom line price, and we ended up paying $16,300 total. 

When the sales manager was going through his lengthy sales pitch on buying extra warranties, undercoating and all that other crap that we declined, he also showed us on his screen that supposedly the dealership’s profit on the sale of this car was only $75. I told him I find that hard to believe…

Anyway, I think we got a great car at a good price, and I’m just happy I won’t have to deal with any car salesmen for quite a while now. :smile:


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## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

My Own Advisor said:


> After talking to my mechanic yesterday, someone that sees cars and trucks of all shapes and sizes, he told me this:
> 
> 1. Consider buying a 2-3 year old used KIA or Hyundai or Toyota or Honda for your next car. Avoid buying new cars due to depreciation right off the lot. You might as well light a match and burn $2,000 or $3,000 right away in front of your eyes.
> 2. Pay cash if you can.
> ...


The used car advice isn't always as good as it used to be. I spent a long time last summer looking at used car prices for Toyota and Honda minivans and people wanted about 80% value for a car with 50K on it. You are losing half the warranty and buying a car with possibly a fifth of it's value gone, for 4/5th of the price. At that point you had might as well enjoy it new. The one thing is sometimes you can get a few more features than you could otherwise afford. Or if they have done upgrades like remote starters, they usually don't cost extra.

Same with the cash incentive. A lot of dealerships aren't that motivated by cash any more. You get the financing vs. cash back deals which work out better to finance unless you are going to be sitting on the money in a savings account for 5 years.

It all really depends on the make and model. But at least in my situation I quickly learned that the demand for some of these vehicles is so high, they wont' even try to negotiate.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

The dealers actually get an extra incentive when you finance. Also on extra warranties and all the other add ons.


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## dotnet_nerd (Jul 1, 2009)

Mookie said:


> ...supposedly the dealership’s profit on the sale of this car was only $75. I told him I find that hard to believe…


Congrats, Mookie, I think you got a good deal. 

On a small car like you bought I actually believe the dealer; I think their profit was close to $75 considering you opted out of the extra goodies. That's where they make their money.


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## Woz (Sep 5, 2013)

Mookie said:


> Well, I bought my brand new Red 2016 Nissan Micra SR with automatic transmission a few days ago.


Did you end up getting an invoice report from Unhaggle? How did the price compare?


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## Mookie (Feb 29, 2012)

Woz said:


> Did you end up getting an invoice report from Unhaggle? How did the price compare?


Yes, I did use a free Unhaggle report to get a base price to work towards, although I'm still not sure if that is really the true invoice price. Comparing it now to my bill of sale, if I use the Unhaggle base price, and subtract the $3500 incentive, and add the fees and taxes the bottom line total comes to $16,167, which means I got the car for $133 over invoice.

Maybe the guy was right when he said they only made $75 on the deal...


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

I understand dealers also receive kickbacks called "manufacturer to dealer incentives" and also "holdbacks" again, from then manufacturer Neither of which are not shown on the invoice. Depending on the vehicle these could be significant. Then, as mentioned previously, there is big money in the add ons. Lots of money made behind the scenes and I read on one site that the holdback is about 2-3% of the purchase price. Lots of info on the web under "holdbacks for cars".


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

You can discuss this until you're blue in the face. The dealers have you all by the b&//$ no matter what you negotiate.

Has anyone ever said, "I got so screwed on my car purchase price". or "Yup, I paid a fortune for my car" 
No - all I hear is, "I got a great deal!" or "After 4 hours of negotiating, I really got them this time!"

You see, this is the game they play. You are not stunning them. Its nothing new. These tactics are all accounted for. You're trying to fool a magician with his own trick.

If you really want to save, buy a 3 or 4 year old car.. You can always haggle an extra hundred bucks if you have breath to waste....but what for when you are already getting the same car for half the dealer price....


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

The way they have it structured, if you walk in and just pay the ask you usually get screwed over. I hate the process and the games they play. I have walked out a few times and told them to call me with a real price if they want a sale, has paid off a few times. My last vehicle I had to pay full price as vehicle was in demand and a waiting list, I placed a factory order and it was spec'd as I wanted it. That was a downer from my experience. What killed their chance of me ever going back was when they added a huge pdi fee on top and refused to negotiate. I knew going in that I would likely be paying full price due to demand but that undisclosed fee added means they won't get my next purchase.


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## WGZ (Feb 3, 2017)

Tesla already does, but Tech/Auto start ups such as Faraday Future / Lynk & Co etc. will be selling directly from manufacturer. Online, you can order/buy directly from Volvo.

I got lucky with my new car purchase, felt just like walking in to a shoe store and trying on a shoe I like. And then the manager "oh and btw, here's 20% off, just buy the car so we can make room for 10x more profitable trucks and SUV's". And it was a good price I couldn't walk away from, only 1-2k more than used ones were going for on Kijiji at the time which usually for domestic cars, mine in particular, they instantly lose 5k, and I was keeping track of values before and after the purchase for a few months there, basking in how good of a deal I got. Unhaggle confirmed I got it at invoice, 2k below "base MSRP". No add ons, just paid that, plus tax.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

LOL! Everyone gets a fantastic deal on their car purchase! .....no?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Corporate tax deductions could also be involved in the transactions as well, if the manufacturer sells at a loss.

I know for a fact, that car companies keep parts for a specified number of years and have a finite space to warehouse the parts, so they conduct "scraps" of brand new parts on a regular basis.

When questioned on why the company doesn't sell the parts to a discounter, the reply was as follows.

There are a couple of reasons. We get a tax deduction for full price of the scrapped parts as a business expense. We don't want to undercut our sales of new parts by our dealers.

The profit margin on a new vehicle is complicated, but rest assured a company makes a whole lot more profit on a big SUV or luxury vehicle than a small car.

Companies produce small cars almost at break even points to build brand loyalty and fill their dealer service bays.

A $3500 discount on a $20,000 car is a huge discount and the manufacturer is likely losing money on the sale, but corporations spend millions to advertise their products and providing a discount on a small car is another way for them to advertise their product and get them on the road where they are seen by the public. Dealers also want to make room on their lots for new models and may be paying interest on the old models so they have an incentive to sell them as well.

The best deals are on brand new models that are leftover from the previous year, which is what Mookie purchased.

New vehicle, full warranty, and a lower price, favorable interest rates or both.


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