# Organic food



## summer (Jul 7, 2011)

I hope I posted in the correct folder.


Anyway, what are your thoughts on organic food?
Do you think it's worth the extra money? 

Recently, I have started buying organic grass fed beef, organic eggs and I joined a CSA that delivers fruits, veggies that are organic.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

It depends on what you mean by "worth."

I haven't seen any convincing studies that show organic is more nutritious or less risky to eat than conventional foods, except in the case of children (who are generally more vulnerable to pesticide residues than adults are).

I buy organic because of the lower impact on the environment. Even that's debatable to some extent, and there are lots of opposing views on the sustainability of organic farming on a large scale, but I'm willing to pay more for less impact and to support the mostly small family farms I buy from.


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

I don't know what "organic food" means, and I bet you two don't, either. 

My grandmother was a chemist who worked for the gov't in this area, and her advice was, "eat a varied diet, and wash or peel your produce". But I agree that delicious grass-fed beef or chicken that is raised outdoors is worth the money.


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## summer (Jul 7, 2011)

Brad, no I don't think the food is more nutritious.
I wonder if it's better due to the fact that there are less pesticides, hormones, antibiotics...


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I can barely afford regular food, let alone organic food.

Food is expensive stuff and it's not an asset. It disappears. I try to buy the cheapest things possible and I only buy what's on sale. If it's not on sale, I don't buy it. With that being said, I don't think it's worth it.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

wendi1 said:


> I don't know what "organic food" means, and I bet you two don't, either.


I have two friends who are professional organic agriculture inspectors (they inspect farms to ensure they are meeting organic standards), so I have some idea, yes.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Produce might be better.......I don't know. I think you would have to visit the farm to see how they keep pests away.

As for poultry..........chickens and turkeys don't have an especially appetizing diet in the wild. They eat anything that crawls...........basically.

We have found huge boulders turned over in the forest.........by bears looking for the grubs and beetles under them.

Most animals aren't picky eaters............

Deer and moose, I think........eat mostly vegetation........so venison and moose meat is pretty healthy.........but a lot of people don't want to eat "Bambi" or "Bullwinkle".


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## Itchy54 (Feb 12, 2012)

If I can get organic for a reasonable price then I buy it. I do spend the extra money for free range organic eggs, not that they are more nutritious but because the chickens are happier, I like happy chickens.
I buy grass fed and hormone free beef from the local university meat cutting school. After reading the Omnivores Dilemma I cannot eat a cow that has been force fed corn....nasty corn. I do suggest reading that book.
I have developed many food allergies after a serious illness so food is very important to me. I buy the best I can afford.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Itchy54 said:


> If I can get organic for a reasonable price then I buy it. I do spend the extra money for free range organic eggs, not that they are more nutritious but because the chickens are happier, I like happy chickens.
> I buy grass fed and hormone free beef from the local university meat cutting school. After reading the Omnivores Dilemma I cannot eat a cow that has been force fed corn....nasty corn. I do suggest reading that book.
> I have developed many food allergies after a serious illness so food is very important to me. I buy the best I can afford.


You are right about the beef.

When we visited the wife's farm in Saskatchewan, the grain fed beef tasted a lot better than the corn fed beef we were used to.

Even the old style.......linked hotdogs..............were terrific.

I have noticed during travels in the US..........their beef tastes slightly different than ours.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

sags said:


> When we visited the wife's farm in Saskatchewan, the grain fed beef tasted a lot better than the corn fed beef we were used to.


If you think that's good, try grass-fed beef. Even better!

Another good book on this topic is The Third Plate, by Dan Barber.

I also try to get free range eggs and chicken, although note in Canada there's a difference between "free range" and "free run." Free range chickens go outside and eat bugs and whatever else they can find (which makes for better tasting chicken and eggs); free run chickens are kept in an artificially lit barn (so they produce eggs all year) but they are allowed to run free to some extent within the barn. They're mostly fed grain or other chicken feed.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Depends on what you consider worth, and what on e thinks they are paying for. Some organics are worth more than others. There is a list of the top ones worth paying for. 

The nutritional value of organic is pretty much the same. 

I find meat tastes better, though I am not sure of eggs. They tasted the same to me.

Berries, spinach, potatoes, and root veggies seemed to taste better and are supposed to to have the concerned with the pesticides.

Oranges and bananas, and things you peel are not worth it. I also personally find it a oxymoron to buy organic junk food. My fiend buys organic chips and pop. I don't see the point.


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## summer (Jul 7, 2011)

I agree with everything Plugging Along posted.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Well, Alberta beef has got to be some of the best I've ever had...the stuff I've had in other provinces doesn't compare...haven't noticed a lot of difference with chicken, if you buy the "prime" products. Eggs that come from a farm do taste different, if you've ever had them you won't eat store bought again (though they are fine for baking), even if they are the free range ones...

If you've ever had wild strawberries, well those other posers don't even rate being called the same. Wild raspberries as well, especially the black ones...

Carrots and peas from the garden...they actually have flavour.

Would I pay for "organic", probably not...haven't noticed much of a difference. Now if we're talking small farm produce, that's a different story.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> Oranges and bananas, and things you peel are not worth it.


Not worth it unless you consider the impacts on farm workers of all the pesticide use on those crops -- bananas in particular, which are one of the world's most heavily sprayed food crops. In Costa Rica, which is the second-largest exporter of bananas, women working in banana-packing plants have double the average rates of leukemia and birth defects. About 20% of male banana workers are sterile.

I don't want my money to contribute to perpetuating those problems, so I buy organic bananas.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

We juice. We juice a lot, fruits and veggies. We buy as much organic as we can as we like to rinse off said fruit and veggies and juice without having to peel. I like that by juicing with the peel on we are getting more nutrients (as most nutrients in most fruits and veggies they say is directly under the skin).

I'm not comfortable with waxed fruits, organic or not, so we try and go for limes and lemons and apples that are not sprayed with wax or other coatings.

Regarding is it worth it or not, I'm not sure, but since we can afford it, we spend extra for organic whenever possible. And organic carrots rock compared to conventionally grown... especially fresh out of someone's garden, nibble nibble.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> Depends on what you consider worth, and what on e thinks they are paying for. Some organics are worth more than others. There is a list of the top ones worth paying for.
> 
> I find meat tastes better, though I am not sure of eggs. They tasted the same to me.
> 
> Oranges and bananas, and things you peel are not worth it. I also personally find it a oxymoron to buy organic junk food. My fiend buys organic chips and pop. I don't see the point.


"Organic" is such a trendy word nowadays (and of course exploited by marketing..) that just because something is labelled "organic" does not mean it is the best, or that all organic is the same, worth the cost etc. What is better is fresh, locally grown, not mass produced or altered to look better imo. What is put in the grocery stores seem to be made to look the best rather than taste the best. I think it's tragic that people can grow up without tasting the difference.

Proper eggs definitely taste better. They are a different colour, different shapes, not "grade A" but taste better (although some countries die the yolks somehow, Canadians don't know the difference) I grew up on eggs from the coop, milk from the barn, apples straight off the tree and everything else from the garden etc. My grandfather used to bottle and sell apple cider that was actually 100% apples.. you can't do that anymore! Organic is another question..

I think oranges in Florida are better. Not the perfectly-round-solid-neon-orange ones you see in the store. I mean the ugly-deformed-greenish-and-spots-of-black oranges. Real oranges. Bananas taste better in other countries too, although they don't look as good and they may be more seedy or pulpy or something, but they smell and taste better imo. Note that there are probably thousands of kinds of bananas, but what we call banana is only one type.

Tomatoes from the garden are a million times better. Italians know how real tomatoes and olives should taste. Most of the fruits that are imported of course taste much better fresh in their native country. Alberta beef is really good and it is something that I miss when travelling. I'm not sold on the organic marketing to die hards, however fertilizer and pesticides are often heavily abused. A reasonable amount is ok to me, unless you like worms in your apples.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

brad said:


> Not worth it unless you consider the impacts on farm workers of all the pesticide use on those crops -- bananas in particular, which are one of the world's most heavily sprayed food crops. In Costa Rica, which is the second-largest exporter of bananas, women working in banana-packing plants have double the average rates of leukemia and birth defects. About 20% of male banana workers are sterile.
> 
> I don't want my money to contribute to perpetuating those problems, so I buy organic bananas.


The OP was specifically referring to the pesticides! hormones! and health benefits of not having them. Not the ethical reasons, which i am not going to comment on. The price one pays or doesn't pay is for the ethical reasons is up to them and cannot be disputed.



summer said:


> Brad, no I don't think the food is more nutritious.
> I wonder if it's better due to the fact that there are less pesticides, hormones, antibiotics...





m3s said:


> "Organic" is such a trendy word nowadays (and of course highly exploited by marketing..) that just because something is labelled "organic" does not mean it is the best, or that all "organic" is made the same, worth the cost etc. Fresh, locally grown, not mass produced or altered just to look better, yet maybe not organic, is better imo. What is put in the grocery stores seem to be made to look the best rather than taste the best. I think it's tragic that people can grow up without tasting the difference.
> 
> Proper eggs definitely taste better. They are a different colour, different shapes, not "grade A" but taste better (although some countries die the yolks somehow, Canadians don't know the difference) I grew up on eggs from the coop, milk from the barn, apples straight off the tree and everything else from the garden etc. My grandfather used to bottle and sell apple cider that was actually 100% apples.. you can't do that anymore! Organic is another question..
> 
> ...


I do buy locally when I can. I agree it often tastes better, but I don't think what I always buy is organic, and it don't care that much. I actually read that buying local has a better impact in terms of taste and ethical reasons than buying organic. We try to go to u picks and stuff like that. 

When we travel, we always try and find out what the local food is, and go with that. Cherries and peaches in bc, beef in alberta,apples in Washington, avocados in Mexico, ect. We often hit the local farmer markets if possible, but I have to admit in the larger ones I have been disappointed to find out some of the produce was imported in.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> The OP was specifically referring to the pesticides! hormones! and health benefits of not having them. Not the ethical reasons, which i am not going to comment on. The price one pays or doesn't pay is for the ethical reasons is up to them and cannot be disputed.


I don't think ethics can be separated from the other factors -- it's all intertwined. Here in Québec we have this expression, acheter c'est voter: to buy is to vote. When you buy something you're casting a vote for that product and the way it was produced, and contributing to demand. If someone proved to you that the shirt you're thinking of buying was made by 8-year-old slaves who work 16 hours a day, would you feel good about spending your money on it? You're not going to change anything by not buying it, but if you choose a shirt that was made under more humane working conditions you're at least helping to sustain the humane approach and helping to build demand for it.

Same goes for organic and local. It's not just about you and your perceived risks, it's about the documented risks and impacts on the people who produced the food you eat, the impacts on the environment, the benefits to local economies and small family farms, contributing to the preservation of a way of life, etc. Of course it's a lot easier to live obliviously and not care about this stuff, and most people don't. But a few do and maybe it'll start to make a difference.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

brad said:


> I don't think ethics can be separated from the other factors -- it's all intertwined. Here in Québec we have this expression, acheter c'est voter: to buy is to vote. When you buy something you're casting a vote for that product and the way it was produced, and contributing to demand. If someone proved to you that the shirt you're thinking of buying was made by 8-year-old slaves who work 16 hours a day, would you feel good about spending your money on it? You're not going to change anything by not buying it, but if you choose a shirt that was made under more humane working conditions you're at least helping to sustain the humane approach and helping to build demand for it.
> 
> Same goes for organic and local. It's not just about you and your perceived risks, it's about the documented risks and impacts on the people who produced the food you eat, the impacts on the environment, the benefits to local economies and small family farms, contributing to the preservation of a way of life, etc. Of course it's a lot easier to live obliviously and not care about this stuff, and most people don't. But a few do and maybe it'll start to make a difference.


If some asks me if the shirt of made by a slave or by somewhere else under humane conditions makes an difference in the look of the shirt, I would have to answer NO. If the question is what decision makes one feels good about themselves which is solely subjective, I would not answer because what makes me feel good is different than what others feel good. The OP didn't ask what would them them feel good about themselves or about the conditions that it was produced, but rather is there a difference on the OP body in terms of physical health. So in this particular case, it is about the OPs perceived risk to themselves. If they were asking about the other factors, you have articulated them well.

For me personally, I do separate the question at hand with ethics. I am able to see they are two different considerations. One is that organics, and local tends to taste a lot better, and I do think in some cases has health benefits. That may or may not be enough to convince one to spend the extra money. The next factors are the ethical pieces which include the humanity, social, environment, ect. Each one of these will mean something different to individuals. I happen to agree with you, but I am not trying to change other peoples minds to agree with my views.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Just keep in mind that Canada doesn't have any sort of oversight on what is considered organic. You can find that there are a lot of pesticides used in organic farming, but they are "organic" pesticides and can actually be worse because you need greater amounts than you would for conventional pesticides.

I'm just pointing out that what is labelled organic may not be what you think it is.

Fun fact, while milk may cost more in Canada, you can be assured that the cows are not treated with rBST (Recombinant bovine somatotropin) since it is banned in Canada; whereas in the states it's used quite readily.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

summer said:


> Brad, no I don't think the food is more nutritious.
> I wonder if it's better due to the fact that there are less pesticides, hormones, antibiotics...


They make you think so. I have a friend who is a nutrition "nut case" and I mention that because he goes to extremes with his organic food and veggies. He buys only organic and swears that it is better for him, even if it costs more.

For instance ..bananas...or organic bananas.

Loblaws sells organic bananas for a "few cents more" a pound, and they are often over ripe compared to the regular non-organic bananas which I buy. I laugh at him and tell him..it's all the same when it comes to bananas..they grow on the same tree..some bunches are picked to be normal shipments and the other bunches are marked 'organic'. 

Bananas, like any other fruit you eat, you have to peel anyway, so it's a moot point, unless you like to eat your apples without washing them or do like we used to do (old school)..rub the apple on our jeans and then take that first bite.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

brad said:


> but if you choose a shirt that was made under more humane working conditions you're at least helping to sustain the humane approach and helping to build demand for it.


Not always that clear cut though......(as I may have mentioned before, on another thread), when I came down through Pakistan/India/Ceylon in 1963 I encountered numerous children deliberately deformed/mutilated so as to make them 'more effective' beggars..........a subsequent visit to (what is now) Sri Lanka in 1985 found that this practice appeared to have been eliminated, whether by the 'opportunity' to place young people in sweatshops, by government crackdowns, or a combination of factors I don't know.

Choices are rarely just between 'good' and 'bad'...they can often be between horrendous and deplorable...but in this instance, if it _is_ between mutilation and terrible working conditions, and you remove the terrible working conditions...which is less bad, and are you helping?


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

carverman said:


> Loblaws sells organic bananas for a "few cents more" a pound, and they are often over ripe compared to the regular non-organic bananas which I buy. I laugh at him and tell him..it's all the same when it comes to bananas..they grow on the same tree..some bunches are picked to be normal shipments and the other bunches are marked 'organic'.


It's not true, though. They're the same variety of banana (Cavendish, which is the only variety generally available in stores; they are seedless and hence a monoculture so they are very vulnerable to diseases and have to be sprayed heavily). The difference is that the organic ones are not sprayed with pesticides; I'm not sure what they use to control fungus and other diseases. But the point in buying organic bananas is not to protect yourself from pesticide residues. It's to try to encourage more banana growers to reduce their use of pesticides, which are a major health risk to workers in banana plantations.

I don't know what the best solution will be here: Cavendish will eventually go extinct, just like the previous sterile varieties did, it's only a matter of time. A new variety will come on the market and will be resistant to disease for a while and then will become vulnerable again. The original wild bananas were full of seeds -- imagine a watermelon that's 95% seeds and 5% flesh. That's basically what a wild banana is like -- nearly impossible to eat. The commercial ones are seedless, which means they are all propagated vegatatively and are genetic clones, making them very vulnerables to being wiped out.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

I have an apple tree in my backyard in the heart of the city (TO) and has never been sprayed for pesticides, fungi, and the likes. The apples taste just as good, if not better (freshly picked right off the tree) as those bought from the store, only that they don't look as pretty (blights). Would they be considered as "organic" despite being showered by acid rain in the summer? 

The squirrels' family are always having a party with the tree, taking a bite out of every apple on the tree. :numbness:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

m3s said:


> "Organic" is such a trendy word nowadays (and of course exploited by marketing..) that just because something is labelled "organic" does not mean it is the best, or that all organic is the same, worth the cost etc.


LOL!..I see these namby-pamby "only organic food for me'..shopping at Loblaws..they examine each fruit to see if it has that label on it, then carefully study it as it it's going to jump out at them and exclaim "yes I'm organic Pal!...I grew on a tree and the tree had roots in the soil, and the sun and rain did its thing, and so did the bees...so here I am!". 




> "Tomatoes from the garden are a million times better. Italians know how real tomatoes and olives should taste. '


Italians grow their own tomatoes for spaghet sauce, so they should know. :biggrin:



> Most of the fruits that are imported of course taste much better fresh in their native country.


Difference is that a fruit or veggied picked at it's peak of ripeness or freshness is always tastier than the fruit picked green
and shipped to our stores from California, Florida, Mexico or even South America..its the shipping time that comes into
consideration. Banannas for example are always picked green and ripen in the stores or in your home.



> I'm not sold on the organic marketing to die hards, however fertilizer and pesticides are often heavily abused. A reasonable amount is ok to me, unless you like worms in your apples.


The occassional worm is just some added protein..but people today won't accept anything with spots on it ,dents, bruises,
the fruit and veggies have to look perfect and organic too.

I grew up on a farm..everything was organic..the veggie garden was planted with the finest stinkiest manure that the cows
had to offer... it was all organic....cow ate the hay, the hay passed through the cow..the garden veggies used the manure..
and we ate the veggies...and sometimes the cow too. Drinking that unpasturized warm milk from a milking pail...doesn't
get any more organic than that. :biggrin:


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Personally, I don't trust a lot of the marketing hype. 

A lot of organic food can be produced using fertilizer or chemicals using loopholes in the definition...labourers in other countries are being mistreated, studies show they are dying from exposure to these chemicals...illegal labour is being exploited down in the USA to harvest the food...locally made is better, we don't have illegal sweat shops...

People spout this stuff off all day, having heard it from "a reliable source". I'm sure I can find at least one case to prove each and every statement above is either true or false (I know we have illegal sweat shops in Canada for example, they do get shut down every once in a while)...just because you can find cases of it, doesn't mean it's the prevailing trend.

Hate to tell you this, but farmers everywhere are exposed to "dangerous chemicals", even in Canada...heck, breathing in rush hour probably exposes you to significantly higher levels on a long term basis...I'm sure we could google some web page to back of that last statement.

I always love to see people who spout off these "studies"...yet they can't produce them, or don't actually read them past the abstract (and miss little things like we tested 5 subjects who had cancer and discovered that 4/5 had visited a farm at some point in their lives and maya have been exposed to cancer causing chemicals...).

I admit, most of this post is hyperbole, but I'm sorry, I was brought up to think for myself not spew out propaganda generated by others with an agenda...

Does anyone even know the different rules between the USA and Canada when it comes to food production? My wife has an agriculture degree, and the rules for beef and dairy injections are significantly different between the two countries, yet everyone here talks about all the injections in our food supply, confusing Canada (where it is heavily restricted) and the USA (where it's not restricted as much). There is a reason US dairy farms can produce 2-4x as much as a Canadian farm...though the quota system, and price fixing also comes into play.

There is a lot of money at stake in the consumer game, do you seriously think there isn't an agenda behind all this hype (regardless of which side is talking)? Do a little research people and you may be surprised at what may be closer to the truth compared to what most people believe to be true...and remember, there are always exceptions to the rule.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> I have an apple tree in my backyard in the heart of the city (TO) and has never been sprayed for pesticides, fungi, and the likes. The apples taste just as good, if not better (freshly picked right off the tree) as those bought from the store, only that they don't look as pretty (blights). Would they be considered as "organic" despite being showered by acid rain in the summer?
> 
> The squirrels' family are always having a party with the tree, taking a bite out of every apple on the tree. :numbness:


You can't consider those apples with blight organic Beav. Do you know the variety and history of that tree? What about your backyard?..the soil and soil conditions..acid rain...now that's a major problem. Do the apples taste
acidic? You would need to call the USDA (US Dept of Agriculture)Organic Produce Certification Board and have them come out and check you and your apple tree out..to see if you qualify to be organic.

*Organic farms and processors*:

Preserve natural resources and biodiversity
Support animal health and welfare
Provide access to the outdoors so that animals can exercise their natural behaviors
Only use approved materials
Do not use genetically modified ingredients
Receive annual onsite inspections
Separate organic food from non-organic food
http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?contentidonly=true&contentid=organic-agriculture.htm


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Personally, I don't trust a lot of the marketing hype.
> 
> A lot of organic food can be produced using fertilizer or chemicals using loopholes in the definition...labourers in other countries are being mistreated, studies show they are dying from exposure to these chemicals...illegal labour is being exploited down in the USA to harvest the food...locally made is better, *we don't have illegal sweat shops*...
> 
> ...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

it's true that cattle in canada are not given bovine growth hormone as they are in the US.

i wonder about processed dairy products, though. The entire range of yoghurts, kefirs, every kind of cheese imaginable.

just about all of these are manufactured using milk concentrates or powdered milk as a base. Are these concentrates & other preparations imported from the US? made from the milk of dairy cows that have been treated with BGH? i've even read that some dairy concentrates used in cheese operations here are imported from china.

it's like with Rougemont brand juices from Lassonde - the biggest processor of fruit juices in the world. I've visited the trappist monks' U-pick orchards not far from the juice factories in rougement & i've seen the apples growing in farmers' orchards for hundreds of kilometres around, in the eastern townships region. 

but i also know that Lassonde - which is a publicly-traded company - imports fruit juice concentrates from china. Even, apparently, apple juice concentrates.

an organic purist i'm acquainted with left her faculty position at a big school of dietetics because, she said, they were too far behind the times with respect to understanding good soil management & good growing practices. She says that the *only* food one can ever trust is the food that one grows oneself.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Unless you know where the seeds come from, can you even trust that (he says adjusting his aluminum fail hat)...which causes aldsheimers.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Probably safest to give up on eating altogether.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

I'm not a fan of "organic". Too me it is a meaningless term. All plants and animals are organic. Now the term "organic" in this context is used to convey more or less, that the food was produced using methods prior to the invention of pesticides, and commercial fertilizers. 
Fertilizers: plants need nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorous to be healthy. These three things are elements. That means no human manufactured them. Organically grown and non-organically grown food needs the same three elements. So essentially from a fertilizer perspective, the food is the same. 
Pesticides: If a plant is attacked by an insect it produces its own internal pesticide. Apparently its own internal pesticide is toxic to humans, more so than man made pesticides. So plants that receive man made pesticides are less likely to be attacked by insects, and in turn, are less likely to have internally generated toxic natural pesticides. 

So I don't get it. I have no incentive to pay more for so called organically grown food. Moreover, organic farmers have much lower production, so if the whole world went organic, a billion or more people would starve, not to mention domesticated animals that rely on us to feed them. 

However, I dislike farming methods where animals are unhappy. So, for example, I am happy to pay more money for "Free Run" eggs based on the assumption the animals are happier than those poor caged creatures.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Pluto said:


> However, I dislike farming methods where animals are unhappy. So, for example, I am happy to pay more money for "Free Run" eggs based on the assumption the animals are happier than those poor caged creatures.


+1 Although we have (almost drastically) reduced our meat consumption, we still infrequently eat meat....and have no problem with the concept/actuality of feeding on animals...but eating them, and subjecting them to abuse, are two different things.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

carverman;352233
I grew up on a farm..everything was organic..the veggie garden was planted with the finest stinkiest manure that the cows
had to offer... it was all organic....cow ate the hay said:


> Interesting post carvarman. It's nice to hear from someone who lived on a farm, as opposed to some urban anti industrial self declared food expert. Question: You say your garden was fertilized by manure. Is there enough manure to properly fertilize all the farms of the world? I keep running into so called experts who make such claims, but I don't believe them. I think if all farms relied on manure only up to 1/2 of the worlds population would starve. What say you?


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Pluto said:


> I think if all farms relied on manure only up to 1/2 of the worlds population would starve. What say you?


Not possible, there isn't enough room on earth to support the number of cows needed to produce enough crap for what is needed, and those would need to be fed green grass for what comes out of their rear end to have any value. Ecological disaster.

In my youth I have spend many summers very close to the farms and had access to organic food the farmers produced for their own families, now that was something, taste was unbelievable, eggs, meat, butter, cheese, veggies and fruits, oh my. The organics they sell in the stores IMO aren't worth a penny more than the regular food, even Mennonite's food doesn't taste any better IMO.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

If we could only harvest all the manure produced by politicians, the hunger problem would be solved...throw in the bs produced by "experts" and we'd have abundance forever!


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

Pluto said:


> I think if all farms relied on manure only up to 1/2 of the worlds population would starve. What say you?


 And the other half would contract Ecoli and succumb. That'll take care of them pesky humans!


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

I figure that unless you have your macronutrient diet at nearly perfect levels, and your body at an ideal fitness and composition, then any possible (small) benefit of organic food is completely voided by your overall poor diet and health.

The only "organic" eating I attempt to do is to get pastured meat and dairy when I can. I believe grass fed meat and dairy has been shown to have higher saturated: polyunsaturated fat ratios, and that the polyunsaturated fat has a higher omega 3:6 ratio. Unfortunately organic meat costs a fortune (although I've recently found organic beef at the Superstore which is only slightly more than regular) and pastured dairy is nearly impossible to find in this country, unless you stumble across some small-time supplier at a farmer's market for a few weeks of the year.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> just about all of these are manufactured using milk concentrates or powdered milk as a base. Are these concentrates & other preparations imported from the US? made from the milk of dairy cows that have been treated with BGH? i've even read that some dairy concentrates used in cheese operations here are imported from china.


They are imported from China.
Anything sounding like _concentrate_, _milk solids_, _whey concentrate_ etc. are freeze dried and shipped from China these days.
BTW, in addition to BGH, these milk "concentrates" often contain free glutamic acid, which is MSG.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

How about some enlightenment from someone who farms. First organic isn't about nutrition, its about whether you don't mind a lot of chemicals getting on to your food.

About 30 years ago, there were thousands of family farms and each one produced a little grain, a little hay, a little beef or pork, a little chicken a few eggs and some garden veggies and fruits. Some of this was consumed at home, the rest sold in town. It was all natural products, no pesticides, hormones, fertilizer, free range, grass fed etc. Sounds like a nice set up doesn't it? Until farmers found out people don't want to pay fair price for food. Oh they will drop big bucks on smokes and booze and lotto tix, but not food.

And so you should know the rest of the story. All those mom and pop farms went out of business and snatched up by the bigger neighbors until they became huge enterprises where super concentrated agriculture happens now. Things like thousands of chickens in a barn running around and injecting them with antibiotics and cattle and pigs squeezed into small pens to stand in their own feces while being pumped full of growth hormone. And the fruit and vegetable industry found out that people do care about spots on their apples so now they fumigate entire orchards every week. The grain industry sprays fungicide and pesticide right into your crops that make bread and beer and cooking oil because every single acre must be a top producer to stay in business. Grain farms used to be a few hundred acres and support a family. Now the minimum economic size is probably 1500 acres.

If you don't like the food choices out there, just look square in the mirror.


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## Itchy54 (Feb 12, 2012)

love reading everyone's comments..

The only thing I don't like about the label of organic beef is that they can be fed organic corn....not what cows would normally eat. I tend to stay away from the organic beef and go for the grass fed option.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

tygrus said:


> If you don't like the food choices out there, just look square in the mirror.


Exactly. I've worked on farms, and a few of my friends still work on small family farms: the niche for many of those farms now is organic, because people are willing to pay more for organic products from small family farms.

I don't think organic farming is the way to feed the world; it's the way to feed a portion of the population who wants to support organic, small-scale farming. GMOs are probably the way to feed the world sustainably into the future on a large scale. But I think there'll always be a niche for small, organic, family farms that produce high-quality produce and meats for people who are willing to pay a premium for them.

It gets back to the OP's original question: is it worth it? Yes if you want to support small-scale, mostly local agriculture. My supermarket sells organic garlic grown in China. No way am I going to buy that when I can get non-organic garlic grown locally a few kilometers from my home.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Itchy54 said:


> The only thing I don't like about the label of organic beef is that they can be fed _*organic corn*_....


Is there any organic corn grown any more at all, at least at that scale?
I thought almost all of commercially grown corn in NA is all GMO now.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

Itchy54 said:


> I tend to stay away from the organic beef and go for the grass fed option.


Grass fed cattle spend the final months of their lives in crowded 'finishing' pens where they are fattened with grain before slaughter.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

as andrew says, giving up eating is the best revenge ...


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## Itchy54 (Feb 12, 2012)

tygrus said:


> Grass fed cattle spend the final months of their lives in crowded 'finishing' pens where they are fattened with grain before slaughter.


I know for sure that the beef I get is grass finished....buy it local from the meat cutting program at the university...and they get it from local farms.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

peterk said:


> I've recently found organic beef at the Superstore which is only slightly more than regular).


Did you notice the grade of meat? 

Superstore (and the related chains) sells "ungraded" meat sometimes...something I didn't even know was allowed in Canada (turns out it is if labeled). There's a big difference between ungraded beef and AAA or, even better sterling grade. I've rarely seen better than AA at the chain.

Personally, I wouldn't buy any fresh meat at superstore. Boxed or canned, no problem, why pay more...


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## summer (Jul 7, 2011)

tygrus said:


> Grass fed cattle spend the final months of their lives in crowded 'finishing' pens where they are fattened with grain before slaughter.


Not the place I buy mine. I have asked about that specifically.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Glutamic acid is harmless and naturally occurring in many foods, especially the organic kind. It's not the same thing as MSG, since free glutamic acid is not bound to sodium.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Glutamic acid is harmless and naturally occurring in many foods, especially the organic kind. It's not the same thing as MSG, since free glutamic acid is not bound to sodium.


MSG is manufactured glutamic acid.
It is true that glutamic acid is a naturally occurring compound.
Free glutamic acid is produced from protein fermentation.
However, that is not what is present in these manufactured products such as dried whey proteins and dehydrated milk solids, used to reconstitute creams, cheeses, and yogurts.
That is MSG.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

tygrus said:


> Grass fed cattle spend the final months of their lives in crowded 'finishing' pens where they are fattened with grain before slaughter.


My wife's parents had a grain..........cow/calf farm in Saskatchewan until recently, and that is exactly the way it operated.

Raise the calves to a certain size............and off they go.

I remember reading that bales of grass were in shortage and cost so much.........some farmers were feeding their herd.........old candy.

We had a hard time selling the pasture land that was necessary for the farm operation.

Nobody was interested in prairie land.........and it sold for 20% of the price of the cultivated land.

If pasture isn't in demand...........what are cattle farmers feeding their animals ?


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

sags said:


> If pasture isn't in demand...........what are cattle farmers feeding their animals ?


I think you can get used to beef prices rising because locally producers are not going to add more cattle no matter how high prices get. First there isn't enough young farmers to take up that demand and secondly, the BSE crisis is still too fresh even though its more than 10 years ago. People aren't going to get caught like that again. There are similar stories in the pork industry as well.

I am afraid that meat will start becoming an imported item into Canada. In fact probably our surplus grain will start going overseas for feed and cut meat coming back, kind of like we do with lumber/furniture now. Its the ultimate global free trade gambit.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Itchy54 said:


> love reading everyone's comments..
> 
> The only thing I don't like about the label of organic beef is that they can be fed organic corn....not what cows would normally eat. I tend to stay away from the organic beef and go for the grass fed option.


The term "cows" is generic. there are many varieties of bovine stock. The milk cows are especially kept for milk production during their useful lives. Holstein is the typical large milk producer cow..the black and white we see
so often. Guernseys and Jerseys, while producing milk with a higher fat content, do not produce the volumes
that milk farmers want, so they are only used for specialty products, I believe.

In the US they are fed GMO feeds and hormones to increase milk production, not sure if this practice is allowed in Canada. We can thank Monsanto for producing GMO feeds.

The beef variety comes in many "flavours". Herefords are one breed, Black Angus are another and their steaks are especially prized by beef lovers. There may be also other breeds..one is a French one called Charolais, but these are not as popular as the Black Angus, butg they do produce beef with less fat, for those that like it that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charolais_cattle

In summer , they will be out to pasture and supplemented with hay that the beef farmer buys or grows his own. In winter, just in time for market, they could be fed a "special diet' that generates a higher fat content..the "marbelized steaks' that are so yummy on the grill. In that special feed, there are cereal grains, mostly modified corn....ahem GMO corn most likely....courtesy of Monsanto.:biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> Nobody was interested in prairie land.........and it sold for 20% of the price of the cultivated land.
> 
> If pasture isn't in demand...........what are cattle farmers feeding their animals ?


Umm..let me guess..special feeds with GMO grains, like corn..to get them ready for market sooner? :eek2:
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/04/30/monsanto-gmo-corn.aspx



> And in many ways, I believe Monsanto is slowly but surely inching its way toward patenting nature itself, in the same way others are fighting to maintain patent rights for human DNA.1


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## Itchy54 (Feb 12, 2012)

this is where my beef comes from, and it is GOOD

http://www.heartlandfoods.ca/

today I picked up organic green onions, they were cheaper than the others....and organic sweet potatoes, cheaper than the giant bin non-organic ones--how can that be??


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Travel and storage costs are probably low considering it's local harvest time...


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## bayview (Nov 6, 2011)

HaroldCrump said:


> Is there any organic corn grown any more at all, at least at that scale?
> I thought almost all of commercially grown corn in NA is all GMO now.


Ya probably true no large scale organic corn. I love corn but not eaten them directly for more than 2 years due to GMO concerns. I'm not a big meat eater ( mainly fish ) so whatever non organic meat I consume would probably be corn & grain fed ( non organic) which I can't control. I try to eat organic as much as I could afford. Only problem is good accessibility and variety been based in Toronto. I recently discovered this small organic corn grower ( now in season) in Ontario.

http://sosnickiorganicproduce.blogspot.ca

Love it, love it!!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Is there any organic corn grown any more at all, at least at that scale?
> I thought almost all of commercially grown corn in NA is all GMO now.


It's pretty crazy that NA is practically 100% GMO (and even "organic" is likely contaminated by GMO crop by now) while the EU is strictly against GMOs. A trace of GMO corn was detected in soy flour once and got sent it back to the USA.. Apparently Norway has built an underground doomsday shelter to safeguard non-GMO seeds on an arctic island.

From wiki:

The European Union (EU) may have the most stringent GMO regulations in the world. All food (including processed food) or feed which contains greater than 0.9% of approved GMOs must be labelled. As of August 2012, the European Union had authorised 48 GMOs. Most of these were for animal feed imports or for feed and food processing.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

bayview said:


> ... I love corn but not eaten them directly for more than 2 years due to GMO concerns...


Seems a shame to miss out on a fresh cob of corn rolled in butter during the season just because of that. Our main concern is that a cob is fresh (=tender). Like the people we know and the other food we eat, its genetics don't matter. It tastes just as good and passes through you just the same way.


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## Rubab20 (Sep 11, 2014)

The food items which are free from artificial urea, fertilizers, pesticides and weedicides. Only natural materials (like 'cow dung' used as urea in the agriculture fields) are used to yield organic foods items.


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