# Toyota Prius Prime



## Fisherman30 (Dec 5, 2018)

Anyone have one? My Corolla will last me quite a while yet, but I'm thinking about what might appeal to me down the road. A new Prius Prime for sticker price right now, out the door is $38 000, including the $2500 government rebate. The next level of options for the "upgrade" model is an extra $2900, and the model on top of that is an extra $2400. So you can spend about an extra $5300 on options. None of those options are really necessary to me, as the base model already comes with plenty of features. The $5300 in options is pretty much just all "cool technology" that isn't really necessary. Obviously, $38k isn't a small amount of money. It's a plug-in hybrid, and can supposedly go 40 km on electric only. That would allow me to do all of my in-city driving, including going to and from work without using any fuel at all. I would only use fuel anytime I went on longer trips. When I park at work, I could plug it in to the outlets used for block heaters. This would give a pretty slow charge, but considering it's only about 6 km each way to work, it would regain full charge no problem. I currently spend about $100/month on fuel, and fuel prices are only going to continue to go higher, I think. 

Thoughts?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Financially it would make terrible sense BUT if you are interested in having a new vehicle a PHEV isn't a bad choice IMO. I mean driving 12 kms a day isn't going to use much gas unless you are driving a really bad gas guzzler which I don't think the Corolla is.


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## Fisherman30 (Dec 5, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Financially it would make terrible sense BUT if you are interested in having a new vehicle a PHEV isn't a bad choice IMO. I mean driving 12 kms a day isn't going to use much gas unless you are driving a really bad gas guzzler which I don't think the Corolla is.


Yeah, true. I don't have any intent to make any vehicle purchases for quite a while. It just seems like a pretty interesting car.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It is hard to make anything PHEV or BEV pay out when a vehicle is not driven much. It comes down, more or less, to positioning oneself to 2030 when more than half of all vehicles being newly registered could be BEV. If you still have 5 years left in the Corolla, why not just keep it until one needs to replace it? BEV technology may have 2-3 times fold increase in performance by then.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

^ In that case why not go all the way and buy a nice new gas powered Corolla right now and drive it for 15-20 years? Just imagine how good the battery will be in 2040!! 

Seriously though, A small battery pack PHEV makes the most sense to me for a long term transformation of the global vehicle fleets, indefinitely. It would conserve precious battery making materials (instead of letting BEV manufactures claim/hoard them all), and create the most versatile vehicle, expanding on the capability of a gas car to also be powered at home.

Upcoming threatened bans on ICE engine cars, which include PHEV in some countries, are a fantasy, as well as a dumb idea, IMO.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

peterk said:


> Seriously though, A small battery pack PHEV makes the most sense to me for a long term transformation of the global vehicle fleets, indefinitely.


I agree and it seems many are missing this point about PHEVs. If they could increase PHEV range just a bit more than current offerings it could be a big hit despite being slightly more complex and costly. They could significantly cut down on city use emissions.


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

Fisherman30 said:


> Anyone have one? My Corolla will last me quite a while yet, but I'm thinking about what might appeal to me down the road. A new Prius Prime for sticker price right now, out the door is $38 000, including the $2500 government rebate. The next level of options for the "upgrade" model is an extra $2900, and the model on top of that is an extra $2400. So you can spend about an extra $5300 on options. None of those options are really necessary to me, as the base model already comes with plenty of features. The $5300 in options is pretty much just all "cool technology" that isn't really necessary. Obviously, $38k isn't a small amount of money. It's a plug-in hybrid, and can supposedly go 40 km on electric only. That would allow me to do all of my in-city driving, including going to and from work without using any fuel at all. I would only use fuel anytime I went on longer trips. When I park at work, I could plug it in to the outlets used for block heaters. This would give a pretty slow charge, but considering it's only about 6 km each way to work, it would regain full charge no problem. I currently spend about $100/month on fuel, and fuel prices are only going to continue to go higher, I think.
> 
> Thoughts?


If you live in a climate that requires heat or AC I suggest you qualify if that can be accommodated without running the gas engine in this vehicle.

As an aside I'm a little surprised your current ride is costing that much for fuel in this usage situation.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I have the Prius Prime upgrade model (2019). My thoughts:


Mileage is fantastic. In summer I get about 50km to a charge, in winter it falls to around 40km. Charging from a public L2 charger takes 2h 10m, from a normal plug takes 6 hours. When running hybrid (battery exhausted), it's about 4L/100km in summer and 5L/100km in winter. Our all-time stats says we've gotten around 2.2L/100 km over the life of the car so far.
Love the heated seats, steering wheel, and side mirrors. The wheel especially is so lovely in winter.
Covariance questioned the heating/AC, and the car does accommodate those without running the gas engine. The only time the gas engine needs to kick in is if you're running the front window defrost. I don't know why but I guess that's particularly intensive.
Infotainment system is hot garbage. I use Waze on my phone even though I have the built-in GPS.

Any other questions, just let me know.


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## Fisherman30 (Dec 5, 2018)

Covariance said:


> If you live in a climate that requires heat or AC I suggest you qualify if that can be accommodated without running the gas engine in this vehicle.
> 
> As an aside I'm a little surprised your current ride is costing that much for fuel in this usage situation.


I do drive about 40-50 km each way once in a while to go to a provincial park I enjoy cross country skiing at sometimes, which uses a decent chunk of my fuel throughout the month.


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## RICARDO (Nov 4, 2021)

Personally would wait for a BEV that you would be happy with.
My thoughts are why have two traction systems on the same car. Twice the possible repair points.
Looks like you have the time to wait as you are in no hurry to change out.
Sometimes it is worthwhile waiting a little bit so the initial fascination wears off.

RICARDO


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

My view is also as regards supply chain issues and chip shortages that will persist much of this year it seems. I don't know whether there would be many on dealer lots but I may be mistaken.


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

Fisherman30 said:


> I do drive about 40-50 km each way once in a while to go to a provincial park I enjoy cross country skiing at sometimes, which uses a decent chunk of my fuel throughout the month.


Understood. Personally my use case is not that dissimilar which is why I know the numbers. Similarly I've looked at PHEVs and BEVs because it seems like the short round trip is ideal for this tech. I've decided to wait and get a BEV once the market settles down.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

RICARDO said:


> Personally would wait for a BEV that you would be happy with.
> My thoughts are why have two traction systems on the same car. Twice the possible repair points.


It's more like 1.5 traction systems. The Hybrid part (plug-in or not) replaces the transmission, starter and alternator. Not sure about the prius but the latest toyota system doesn't even have an accessory belt anymore as the water pump is electric. Those are all common failure points on ICE vehicles.

BEVs do have even fewer parts of course. But you become heavily dependant on the very expensive battery having been designed and built correctly, which in my opinion won't be a given outside Tesla for several years yet.


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## Bobcajun (May 15, 2018)

off.by.10 said:


> It's more like 1.5 traction systems. The Hybrid part (plug-in or not) replaces the transmission, starter and alternator. Not sure about the prius but the latest toyota system doesn't even have an accessory belt anymore as the water pump is electric. Those are all common failure points on ICE vehicles.
> 
> BEVs do have even fewer parts of course. But you become heavily dependant on the very expensive battery having been designed and built correctly, which in my opinion won't be a given outside Tesla for several years yet.


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## Bobcajun (May 15, 2018)

I have been interested in a hybrid. But, if a person doesn’t drive too much at home. It may be better to simply buy a gas powered car of the same make, as they are usually a lot cheaper. The problems with this solution are what do you decide is low local mileage? And will you be able to sell or even hold onto a gas car further down the road. There is the environmental calculation as well, of course, but if you travel long distances the electric vehicles are not really there, yet. Thus, the option for hybrid. I hope my old clunker holds out for a couple of more years!
G


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Bobcajun said:


> And will you be able to sell or even hold onto a gas car further down the road.


None of that will go away, i.e. be prohibited. Classic cars are sold every day in every jurisdiction even if they meet none of the existing emission standards, and just like California now doing away with small gas powered tools such as lawn mowers. One just can't sell/buy new ones. The existing horde of ICE tools and vehicles will be around for as long as there is gasoline to be sold or the products wear out.


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## Bobcajun (May 15, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> e around





AltaRed said:


> None of that will go away, i.e. be prohibited. Classic cars are sold every day in every jurisdiction even if they meet none of the existing emission standards, and just like California now doing away with small gas powered tools such as lawn mowers. One just can't sell/buy new ones. The existing horde of ICE tools and vehicles will be around for as long as there is gasoline to be sold or the products wear out.


I suppose you are right on that. But you have to wonder whether those in authority who want to do away with ice vehicles will start using the stick if the carrot doesn’t work. That might mean that although gasoline might be still available it might be too expensive to make it worthwhile to keep the ice vehicle going. I know, a lot of if’s; but I would really hesitate before buying a gas powered car, just because of the if’s. 
bob


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Bobcajun said:


> I know, a lot of if’s; but I would really hesitate before buying a gas powered car, just because of the if’s.


I might not buy an ICE in 2035 but in 2025, why not? There is currently well over 1 billion ICE vehicles on this planet today. I use 1B instead of 1.4B because some of those are already BEV.

In 10 years, if not a single additional ICE was not sold after today, there would still be close to half a billion still on the road in 10 years. perhaps 150 million of them in North America alone (currently 350 million). The reality is that ICEs will likely still be in the range of 30-50% of new vehicle registrations in 2030, so the residual numbers will be even higher come 2035 or 2040.

I don't think anyone should be concerned about any near term death of ICE vehicles or gasoline stations, and certainly not in my remaining lifetime of hopefully 15+ years.


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## Bobcajun (May 15, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> I might not buy an ICE in 2035 but in 2025, why not? There is currently well over 1 billion ICE vehicles on this planet today. I use 1B instead of 1.4B because some of those are already BEV.
> 
> In 10 years, if not a single additional ICE was not sold after today, there would still be close to half a billion still on the road in 10 years. perhaps 150 million of them in North America alone (currently 350 million). The reality is that ICEs will likely still be in the range of 30-50% of new vehicle registrations in 2030, so the residual numbers will be even higher come 2035 or 2040.
> 
> I don't think anyone should be concerned about any near term death of ICE vehicles or gasoline stations, and certainly not in my remaining lifetime of hopefully 15+ years.


Thanks for taking the time to reply. I will think about this. 
bob


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Bobcajun said:


> Thanks for taking the time to reply. I will think about this.
> bob


The problem with any significant transition on a global scale is the enormity and scale of the change. It simply cannot happen on anything close to time lines espoused by the promoters. The infrastructure change itself will be profound. This is a very large ship and it will take a very long time to turn it around into a new direction.


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## Bobcajun (May 15, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> The problem with any significant transition on a global scale is the enormity and scale of the change. It simply cannot happen on anything close to time lines espoused by the promoters. The infrastructure change itself will be profound. This is a very large ship and it will take a very long time to turn it around into a new direction.


I am not disputing your take on the situation but I wonder what the world ( and the world of vehicles) would look like if the acceleration of technological changes happens at the rate that people like Cathy Wood or Bill Goss seem to think it will?








Moore’s Law is our 'secret weapon' for a sustainable civilization | Greenbiz


Renewable energy can take advantage of this huge increase in computing power, along with artificial intelligence (AI), robotic deployment, and automation, in a way that fossil fuels cannot.




www.greenbiz.com


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I think very cheap energy storage will be the breakthrough for renewables BUT, and this is where the logic of articles such as that linked miss the boat, it will still take an enormous amount of materials to re-create all of the fossil fuel generation currently in operation around the globe into renewable generation. Whatever that renewable source of generation is, the shift in material acquisition and product manufacture required defies anything one can imagine today. Never mind the number of access points that must be built to connect to the grid. 5000MW of nuclear generation needs only one access point to the grid. How does one get an equivalent amount of solar or wind power connected cost effectively, and over how many access points?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> The problem with any significant transition on a global scale is the enormity and scale of the change. It simply cannot happen on anything close to time lines espoused by the promoters. The infrastructure change itself will be profound. This is a very large ship and it will take a very long time to turn it around into a new direction.


I'm an environmentally conscious guy. If I bought a new or lightly-used car tomorrow, I would still buy a small ICE. Cost is a big reason. I'd be looking at something like $16,000 to $18,000 for a nearly-new, low km / recent year, small car.

I don't really drive that much. Even if the price of gas triples, it's maybe a few hundred $ more in gas. Not really a factor in the big scheme of things.

As far as I know, the hybrids and EVs (if lightly used) still don't come close to this kind of price range. Or maybe things have changed since I last looked at this?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The used vehicle market is in severe disruption because of the lack of new product AND the export of relatively new used vehicles to the USA where the market is even more absurd. Canadians, in many cases, are getting more for their 1-2 year old vehicles than they paid for their vehicles new. It is particularly true for popular vehicles and light trucks. Less so for old car clunkers but even pickup clunkers are going for absurd prices.

There is quite a dichotomy (spread) in the value of various old(er) vehicles. One just has to look at AutoTrader or FB Marketplace to see stuff all over the map, albeit many listings are absurd opportunistic listings to see if anyone will bite. It is very much the wild West right now.

P.S. I don't see rising gasoline prices as being problematic for owners of existing ICEs. Be more judicious in use if the fuel budget is being squeezed. If folks currently have gas guzzlers, well, that is a bed they made for themselves in their choices.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Sigh, my dad sold his 2004 Corolla as the pandemic started. Just unlucky timing, this was before it became apparent that the used car market was turning nuts. The car was in great shape with low km (just cosmetic damage to the body), and I think he got 1K or 2K for it.

He offered it to me but I declined it. At the time I thought I could easily buy a newer/used car any time. Oops.



AltaRed said:


> P.S. I don't see rising gasoline prices as being problematic for owners of existing ICEs. Be more judicious in use if the fuel budget is being squeezed. If folks currently have gas guzzlers, well, that is a bed they made for themselves in their choices.


Yeah, exactly my view. Especially for the kinds of small cars I drive, they really just don't consume all that much. If gas double or triples, I'm more concerned about the effect on groceries etc but it won't really impact my driving much.


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## Fisherman30 (Dec 5, 2018)

I bought my 2013 Corolla brand new for $23k out the door, and it's value has increased over the last 2 years upto about $13k. $10k depreciation from brand new on such a reliable vehicle in the last 9 years is a good deal to me. Mind you I got a deal on it when it was new, and they're now going for almost $30k new.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Fisherman30 said:


> I bought my 2013 Corolla brand new for $23k out the door, and it's value has increased over the last 2 years upto about $13k. $10k depreciation from brand new on such a reliable vehicle in the last 9 years is a good deal to me. Mind you I got a deal on it when it was new, and they're now going for almost $30k new.


That's fantastic. I'm jealous. Occasionally when walking around my neighbourhood, I see a parked Corolla or Honda Civic and I always think: what a lucky guy / gal.


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