# buying rental property



## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

Does anyone have a link to a good overview of the pro's and con's of purchasing a rental property using personal funds / loans, vs. setting up a company that owns and manages the property(s)?

Thanks.


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

This article may help, 

Rental Properties - To incorporate or not.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

Thanks FT. Based on the replies to the article and the link to the other article, it doesn't seem like there are any advantages to owing a single property or two via a corp vs. personally. If anything owning them personally would be better because you do not have the initial corp setup costs or annual corp admin fees.

Am I understanding this right?


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## Smac20 (Sep 7, 2009)

*Owner ship thru a company*

The main benefit of owning thru a corporation is the limited liability that it provides. If you are sued the most you can lose is the assets of the company whereas if you own personally you may be found personally liable and as a result any law suite could be found liable and lose your personal assets.

Anyone that wants to become a real player in the property market will do so under a corporation. If you are only buying a second property and don't plan on expanding from there then forget the company.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

The benefit of using a corporation to own property has nothing to do with liability. That risk is covered by insurance and is not a choice to insure your property.

Corporations are taxed at a lower tax rate than individuals in the higher income brackets. There are additional expenses associated with owning a corporation so you have to be making a decent amount of income before it makes sense to incorporate. 

Basically your accountant should be telling when it makes sense to incorporate or not.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

thanks for all the input. Sounds like i should fine a good accountant first.


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## AdamW (Apr 22, 2009)

*Legal Aid Clinic*



ssimps said:


> thanks for all the input. Sounds like i should fine a good accountant first.


Most major cities have some form of free legal aid clinic through the law school in town. It can be very helpful, *and it's free.* Go ask one of the students to do some research into the tax act and you'll get a free legal opinion that you can then bounce off your new accountant!


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

Without going into each line item that exists on the income statement of a real estate investment, the general rule is:

For me, if annual gross rents x 5 >= purchase price then you potentially have a solid rental property and should look further into the deal. If not, move on.


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## uluwatu (Dec 9, 2009)

Rickson9 said:


> For me, if annual gross rents x 5 >= purchase price then you potentially have a solid rental property and should look further into the deal. If not, move on.


So if you can rent for 2k/mth = 24k/yr the most you should pay is 24*5=120k

Are there any 120k properties for sale in any decent size city?

Or is my math wrong? Or my rent amount assumption?


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

uluwatu said:


> So if you can rent for 2k/mth = 24k/yr the most you should pay is 24*5=120k
> 
> Are there any 120k properties for sale in any decent size city?
> 
> Or is my math wrong? Or my rent amount assumption?


That is correct. The U.S. is flooded with these types of property and I have bought them.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Rickson, 
I absolutely don't mean to be rude but several months ago the only real estate you had was your own condo and now you are giving courses in how to buy cheap US properties at a cost of $500. 

I'm not spending $500 to check out the substance of your course so I can't really speak to it but REALLY??? 

Now you are giving out valuations on income property? The US is not flooded with those types of properties. There is a much greater chance of a Canadian shopper being ripped off because they don't know the market they are buying into then finding a real steal. 

I'm sorry but now I'm just irritated why don't you wait several months to see how things turn out before giving courses.


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

Berubeland said:


> Rickson,
> I absolutely don't mean to be rude but several months ago the only real estate you had was your own condo and now you are giving courses in how to buy cheap US properties at a cost of $500.


You would be wrong. You are also lying about not meaning to be rude (unless you are writing this while sleeping).



Berubeland said:


> I'm not spending $500 to check out the substance of your course so I can't really speak to it but REALLY???


Why do you care? 



Berubeland said:


> Now you are giving out valuations on income property?


Yes.



Berubeland said:


> The US is not flooded with those types of properties.


Please cite a source. And yes they are. I'm curious however, which U.S. markets have you looked into?



Berubeland said:


> There is a much greater chance of a Canadian shopper being ripped off because they don't know the market they are buying into then finding a real steal.


Same question: which U.S. markets have you looked into to draw this conclusion? Or cite a source.



Berubeland said:


> I'm sorry but now I'm just irritated why don't you wait several months to see how things turn out before giving courses.


Why are you irritated? The short answer is 'because I don't want to wait several months'. 

I politely read your advice on these forums even though you don't have any money. And some of the investing ideas you spout are worthless and dangerous which probably speaks to the first point.

Tit for tat should be appropriate non? I won't lie to you and say that I didn't mean to be rude there.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Rickson9 said:


> You would be wrong. You are also lying about not meaning to be rude (unless you are writing this while sleeping).
> 
> 
> *If I am wrong about this I apologize however.... I am almost 100% certain that you yourself have in a previous post mentioned that you only had your condo as RE investment.
> ...


This is not the first time I have heard these claims. I would love to be wrong because then the people who do come to me for advice would get better advice. I am more shocked than anything to see you selling this snake oil. 

Ad Hominem arguments don't really suit you.

If you have found these amazing properties I would love to hear about the exciting searching and finding and how amazing they are and what you found since I joined this forum in September when you had the one condo on Yonge Street.


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

Berubeland said:


> This is not the first time I have heard these claims. I would love to be wrong because then the people who do come to me for advice would get better advice. I am more shocked than anything to see you selling this snake oil.
> 
> Ad Hominem arguments don't really suit you.


You started passing judgements first. Don't like it? Don't start it.



Berubeland said:


> If you have found these amazing properties I would love to hear about the exciting searching and finding and how amazing they are and what you found since I joined this forum in September when you had the one condo on Yonge Street.


Send me $500. If you can afford it. I'll be waiting with baited breath.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the feedback, it is too bad it has turned into a fight to an extent though.



uluwatu said:


> So if you can rent for 2k/mth = 24k/yr the most you should pay is 24*5=120k


I have to agree that based on this equation nothing would meet the criteria that I have seen. I have not looked anywhere but where I live though, as this is one of my criteria, easy / fast access to the rental property. Even in the towns around Ottawa $120K property does not equal 2K/month rent for sure.

So maybe buying to rent is just not possible in the Ottawa area; assuming the suggested equation.



Rickson9 said:


> That is correct. The U.S. is flooded with these types of property and I have bought them.


I have no interest in owning / renting a property in the US. 



Rickson9 said:


> I politely read your advice on these forums even though you don't have any money..... I won't lie to you and say that I didn't mean to be rude there.


I'm wondering, and maybe this is for a different thread, what the absolute amount of money a person does or does not have, has to do with their knowledge on investing or renting. I have no knowledge of anyone's true net worth on this forum (except maybe FrugalTrader), so I'm just asking an honest question here.

BTW Rickson9, looking at the posts you make on this site, I would have to say that polite does not match your forum personality very well; while being rude, especially to those you seem to feel are inferior to you (i.e. have less money than you??) is a much better match. For all I know you are the nicest guy on earth in person; I'm commenting on your forum personality here. I'm not asking for you to respond to this comment, it is my personal observation / feeling.



Rickson9 said:


> Send me $500. If you can afford it. I'll be waiting with baited breath.
> 
> [Signed]
> Make money buying U.S. distressed real estate now! http://www.ticonline.com


I thought that people trying to sell something was not allowed on this forum, but every post Rickson9 makes seems to have a link to his site that is selling something (a service). Moderators, can you comment on this please?

Again, I have no interest is continuing a fight. I know no one that has posted here personally, and am only interested in * LEARNING in an environment that is as bully and commercial free as possible.*.

Thanks again, and happy holidays.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

ssimps said:


> I have to agree that based on this equation nothing would meet the criteria that I have seen. I have not looked anywhere but where I live though, as this is one of my criteria, easy / fast access to the rental property. Even in the towns around Ottawa $120K property does not equal 2K/month rent for sure.


I've got a condo here in Calgary and it certainly does not meet that criteria. But that doesn't mean I haven't been making a tonne of money from it 

Rickson's criteria is his personal criteria. Similar to his method of selecting stocks, he likes to build in a lot of safety and checkpoints. Using that criteria, its very unlikely he'll lose money, but at the same time, as many and yourself have pointed out, those opportunites are few and far between in Canada. Where does that leave the rest of us? With more relaxed criteria. The key to his post and criteria is that you need to assess is purely a numbers exercise.

You have to weigh the potential for revenue (rent) generation, have both low and high range expectations - then assess whether you'll make any money based on your expenses (mortgage interest, vacant months, cleaning and repairs, advertising, management fees etc. etc.).

If the equation works in your favor despite building in your own tolerance levels, then it makes sense to go ahead. If you'll skirt the line of profitability if the thing remains vacant for 6 months, or if interest rates double etc, then you'll have to personally assess if the effort is worthwhile.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

My personal criteria for recommending people purchase a property. 

The four ways people make money in real estate are

1- Cash flow

Improved due to rental increases

2- Capital Appreciation

Either improvements to the property or mortgage pay down

3- Area appreciation

Area worth goes up more than surrounding area 

4- Inflation

As money is worth less through the effluxion of time your property increases in $$$ amount. 


For me any property I recommend has to have all the above criteria. I have to be able to add value by increasing rents and improving the property. The property has to be located in an area that I believe will increase in value. 

Basically if a deal seems too good to be true it probably is. I am no stranger to all the people trying to rip you off in real estate.


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## firsttimehomebuyertips (Oct 3, 2009)

That is a great answer Berubeland. I agree with all of your criteria.

ssimps... As far as purchase price many people use the 10% rule. Meaning that gross annual rental income is at least 10% of the purchase price of the property. 
(24K annual income = $240K max purchase price)

Now of course this rule does not work very well if you are looking for single family homes in most large cities in Canada these days, but it works for multi-family properties. The rule is just a basic guideline that helps weed out a lot of properties that you wouldn't want to invest in.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Berubeland and firsttimehomebuyertips, you are both correct with your general rules.
OTOH, Rickson9 is advocating an opportunistic strategy to take advantage of a _temporary_ situation in the US RE market.
For those willing and able to take such a risk, it may be a great opportunity.
The RE situation down south is not going to last forever and the ship is sailing away soon for those opportunities.
Your guidelines around acquiring investment properties are valid and good principles in general but the situation down south is a rare and goes beyond those guidelines.
BTW, Rickson9 is not the only one advocating this type of strategy - there are several others promoting this on the radio, flyers, email-mail, etc.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

Thanks all very much for the further useful information; based on even the lower gross rent/year : purchase cost ideas, it does seem that buying a single house to rent is not a good idea right now (at least in Ottawa area and surrounding towns). House prices are way too high and rent way too low.

The idea of a multiple unit building is something I have not looked into, but will, to see if the math works out better.

Do people generally agree that a rental property has to be 'cash possitive' from day one, or are there other ideas / thoughts that are common and still have realistic potential for mid to long term gains?


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

A property does not have to be cash flow positive from day one.

When I look for property I look for badly managed, neglected places that have high vacancy because that is my area of expertise. So typically these properties are not cash flow positive. They may also need significant repairs. 

It must have the potential to be cash flow positive ASAP once the repairs are done and units are rented. 

To determine the potential rental rates for the area I will do an impromptu survey of the area around as well as average rents in the city. I do not try to over improve the property. You have to know your rental market. When in doubt go shop the competition. 

What will really make you or break you is your contractors. You absolutely must not pay "regular" rates for trades. You must have great relationships with your contractors so they answer your phone call at 1 a.m. 

Currently I am paying $850 plus GST for painting a three bedroom townhouse this includes the paint.

I am paying $500 to sand and refinish the hardwood floors. 

Kitchen supplied and installed plain and white - $1200 plus $600 for installation. 

Now in this particular site I do not want to pay for any special quality. It is basic. 

I supposed if I had to find a contractor in an unfamiliar area I would go lurk around a rental building and find one there or ask the property management. You could also call 20-30 numbers out of the yellow pages until i found one cheap enough for my blood.


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## iherald (Apr 18, 2009)

Berubeland said:


> A property does not have to be cash flow positive from day one.
> 
> When I look for property I look for badly managed, neglected places that have high vacancy because that is my area of expertise. So typically these properties are not cash flow positive. They may also need significant repairs.
> 
> ...


Wow, those are good prices. Where do you live that you're getting these prices?


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

iherald said:


> Wow, those are good prices. Where do you live that you're getting these prices?


Ya I want in too; will they do work in the Ottawa area.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I live and work in Toronto I would be glad to pass these guys names on. They are reliable and professional and charge decent prices for the quality of work that they do. 

As far as I know they will work in the GTA.

But seriously to find people with these kind of prices ask the super in a building they will be glad to pass on the names of their contractors. Or just look at the trucks


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## firsttimehomebuyertips (Oct 3, 2009)

ssimps,

Just to comment further on multi unit properties. Just remember that the more units you have the more conflict your tenants could have with each other. I owned a multi unit home and I had a few problems. I am thinking that next time I might get a management company to deal with the problems. Not sure... If there is enough money in it though it is worth the trouble.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

firsttimehomebuyertips said:


> Just to comment further on multi unit properties. Just remember that the more units you have the more conflict your tenants could have with each other. I owned a multi unit home and I had a few problems. I am thinking that next time I might get a management company to deal with the problems. Not sure... If there is enough money in it though it is worth the trouble.


If rental income is all you want, why not put the same amount of money into a REIT?
Far, far less trouble....


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> If rental income is all you want, why not put the same amount of money into a REIT?
> Far, far less trouble....


I do have some in XRE that was purchased and is now up a lot and therefore the current yield if I buy more is low (5-6%) compared to what I was looking for. 

Do you have some specific REITs you had in mind? After leslie's analysis of one of them, things are not looking good IMO at current price, but maybe there are other REITs that are doing better book wise and can still provide high yields that are possibly sustainable. Please let me know of any hidden gems.

I guess there are a lot of people out there chasing yield (like I do too sometimes I must admit); this may explain why prices have gone so high. When the best you can get on a savings account is 1-2%, I bet people who used to just let $ sit in high interest savings accounts are now buying things like XRE because 5 - 6% seems way better return and are not thinking about risk and what it would mean to possibly loose a good chunk of their purchased price.

Maybe that is the way the world works now though.

I was thinking I'd be able to do better buying a rental property in terms of how much return we could make, but I am now thinking that based on my area this is not the case AT ALL. 

I don't know. 

I wish this ''correction'' in the market some people are waiting / wishing for would happen sooner than later; Q is what to do with cash until then?

Thanks.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

ssimps said:


> I do have some in XRE that was purchased and is now up a lot and therefore the current yield if I buy more is low (5-6%) compared to what I was looking for.
> 
> Do you have some specific REITs you had in mind? After leslie's analysis of one of them, things are not looking good IMO at current price, but maybe there are other REITs that are doing better book wise and can still provide high yields that are possibly sustainable. Please let me know of any hidden gems.


Well, XRE is an ETF and I was suggesting holding the ETF over long periods of time vs multi-unit rental property.

I agree REITs may be over-valued right now but if you were to adopt this REIT-based strategy that'll be for many years, possibly 10 or more - essentially, equivalent to how long you would have held the multiplex.


> I was thinking I'd be able to do better buying a rental property in terms of how much return we could make, but I am now thinking that based on my area this is not the case AT ALL.


One factor that you haven't accounted for yet is your imputed labor costs.
Even if you were to hire contractors for every type of work, at all hours of day and night, there is still a fair bit of work/hassle involved from your side.
Think of yourself as a property manager and impute the labour cost of a property manager.

Then compare that with holding a REIT ETF for the same period of time.
Any temporary overvaluation of specific REITs (or the entire sector even) _should_ even out over a period of 10 - 15 years, no?
Unless of course there is a major structural change and the REIT business model goes bust and/or most of the major REITs go belly up thereby dissolving the ETF itself.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> One factor that you haven't accounted for yet is your imputed labor costs.
> Even if you were to hire contractors for every type of work, at all hours of day and night, there is still a fair bit of work/hassle involved from your side.
> Think of yourself as a property manager and impute the labour cost of a property manager.
> 
> Then compare that with holding a REIT ETF for the same period of time.


I agree about the extra work owning a real property would be compared to a REIT. I own a house and cottage and my wife is after me to fix things all the time. I might actually have to listen to a tenant! Just kidding, really. 

Given the area I live in, real-estate is also over valued from the point of view of what you can get in terms of rent for it.

So now I'm starting to convince myself (or are you??) to buy more XRE, or some of the top holdings in XRE instead as has also be suggested, and live with 6 - 7% return, since it means less work and there is likely short term risk in either buying REITs or real-estate give current prices of both.

What to do, what to do.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

ssimps said:


> So now I'm starting to convince myself (or are you??) to buy more XRE, or some of the top holdings in XRE instead as has also be suggested, and live with 6 - 7% return, since it means less work and there is likely short term risk in either buying REITs or real-estate give current prices of both.


6% - 7% return (for a part of your portfolio) is actually rather good, esp. during these times.
If you can sustain that for 30 years until your retirement, you would have built yourself a nice little nest egg.
If you start with $100,000 in equity and make 7% every year for 30 years, you've made yourself over $750,000 (rough math).
And you haven't fixed leaky toilets at 1:00 am, haven't nailed creaking floors, haven't mopped a wet basement, etc. etc.
You have slept in your warm, comfortable home making love to your beautiful wife while someone else did all that.
Time, my friend, is the most invaluable asset in modern times.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

What a Reit will never have compared to real property is Leverage. 

If you put $100,000 on a real property and rent it out you will earn mortgage paydown as well as appreciation on the value of the property. 

So if you put your $100,000 as 25% down your appreciation will be on $400,000 not $100000 and that is why real real estate is superior to any Reit.


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

Berubeland, what if someone borrows to invest in a REIT? Or what if someone buys an investment property outright? Remember, leverage works both ways.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Berubeland said:


> What a Reit will never have compared to real property is Leverage.
> 
> If you put $100,000 on a real property and rent it out you will earn mortgage paydown as well as appreciation on the value of the property.


You can borrow to invest and then paydown the investment loan - same concept.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

Berubeland said:


> What a Reit will never have compared to real property is Leverage.
> 
> If you put $100,000 on a real property and rent it out you will earn mortgage paydown as well as appreciation on the value of the property.
> 
> So if you put your $100,000 as 25% down your appreciation will be on $400,000 not $100000 and that is why real real estate is superior to any Reit.


Fair point and likely very true if you are able to find a rental property that meets several criteria previously posted by others. 

Just to pay devils advocate, some thoughts (that may or may not be correct since I have no actual rental experience):

1) Any $ you get from rent that you could put toward mortgage down payment you make will be fully taxed at your tax bracket, which means up to ~50% of the rent that could go to down payment goes to the gov. instead. 

2) If your mortgage is 400K, how much will the property really cost you after you factor in mortgage interest. Not factoring in that the interest part of the payment is tax deductable, so this is likely off, but a 400K mortgage @ 4% interest paid over 20 years means the place actually cost you about 557K, not 400K, so this has to eat into the appreciation component. Also, is it realistic to think you can get a 4% mortgage rate for the next 20 years, if not, the real cost of buying goes up. 

3) Is the assumption that a REIT ETF will not also appreciate in value over the same time period?

Again, it probably all depends on the real real-estate you are able to find and what rent you can get for it. My issue is that from what I can find in my area, the real real estate math does not seem to add up based on what rents are.

I'm not suggesting the math for buying REITs right now adds up either though. They sure seems 'simpler' though. 

Seems like being stuck between a rock and a hard place.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> You can borrow to invest and then paydown the investment loan - same concept.


I saw this and FrugalTrader post after posting my long winded one. Goods points too.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

No it's not the same concept at all because no except for you is going to pay down your REIT loan. 

And margin is a lot more difficult to secure on REITS right now it may not be desirable but you can buy with 5% down. Try buying stocks with 5% down. 

Also with REITS there is many more people in line for a payday before you. The CEO's, the managers, the contractors, the engineers the lawyers, the accountants and more. 

With your own property there are many ways to be frugal.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Berubeland said:


> And margin is a lot more difficult to secure on REITS right now it may not be desirable but you can buy with 5% down. Try buying stocks with 5% down.


And it is advisable to buy property with 5% down? 


> Also with REITS there is many more people in line for a payday before you. The CEO's, the managers, the contractors, the engineers the lawyers, the accountants and more.
> 
> With your own property there are many ways to be frugal.


There are costs with rental ownership as well, esp. if you impute all your labor costs.


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

Berubeland, there is also a cost to managing your own properties or paying a property manager to take care of the property. I'm playing devils advocate here as I've also been a landlord. Owning real estate can be lucrative, but being a landlord is a job.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

FrugalTrader said:


> Berubeland, there is also a cost to managing your own properties or paying a property manager to take care of the property. I'm playing devils advocate here as I've also been a landlord. Owning real estate can be lucrative, but being a landlord is a job.


This is one of my worry's; with my day job and a big family, time is precious.

Berubeland, can I ask if you are a landlord full time, or do you also have another full-time job?

Thanks again.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I am a property manager full time. I have my own company where I rent properties on behalf of landlords. The cost is one month's rent. I also do property management for landlords that are out of town. I also do property management maximizing value and repairing properties and increasing rents etc. I get grants if I can. 

When I was paying off my house the basement apartment was continually rented but since the baby is bigger I had to move my office downstairs. 

I see a lot of landlords and many do quite well over time if they take care of their asset. The lady who picks her tenants by astrology not so well. It helps if you are handy but it is not necessary. I think a certain amount of stoicism is essential. What matters is if the rent is paid or not. How people live is still always a surprise for me. When people are renting it is like a job interview people show their best side and when they move in that's when you really get to know them.

I think it is essential to buy properly. I don't like condos as an investment.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

Berubeland said:


> I am a property manager full time. I have my own company where I rent properties on behalf of landlords. The cost is one month's rent. I also do property management for landlords that are out of town. I also do property management maximizing value and repairing properties and increasing rents etc. I get grants if I can.
> 
> When I was paying off my house the basement apartment was continually rented but since the baby is bigger I had to move my office downstairs.
> 
> ...


Now I get your point of view.  

Merry Christmas.


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## Paramedic416 (Jan 6, 2010)

*Buying rental property*

I have been reading your threads. 

I bought 2 detached houses and have been renting them out. 

1. I paid 185,00 for the first. rent 1,350/month
2. I paid 235,00 for the second. rent 1,300/month

I agree that taking care of the property is a priority. I have property management and they get 10% of the rent, only when when the tenant pays. I like this as it provides motivation for property management. And it gives them incentive when selecting tenants for my rental houses. 

The cost is a bit high, but it saves a lot of time for me as I would have to travel an hour to get to the rental property from where I live.

My strategy has been to pay down the mortgage as fast as I can. I do believe the interest rates will rise again. I think we will see 10% interest rates in the future. That could mean your current monthly mortgage payment of 
$1,200/month might increase to 2,400/month. Paying down the mortgage seems like the only way to protect your investments. 

You could always increases you amortization to 35 years, but I think the best thing to do would be decrease your amortization to 15 - 20 years and pay more towards your mortgage. 

In the future, when it comes to retiring early, the income from rental property when the mortgage is paid will be a great benefit, the sooner the better I say.

Having said all that. If your plan is to buy multiple properties then leverage seems to be the only option. Using any extra money you have for down payments on new properties would be needed before making extra payments to any of the previous acquired properties.

Is frugal trader from Million dollar Journey? I really enjoy reading your site.


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