# ontario "fair" hydro plan - another liberal's populist scam



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm just curious.... do people in Ontario are so stupid?! If not, Wynne wouldn;t push her scam...

_Aparently Liberal government’s “Fair Hydro Plan,” which lowers electricity bills by 25 per cent, will ultimately zap Ontarians to the tune of $21 billion over the next three decades: province’s budget watchdog!!! So, she is borrowing money now, so our kids would pay it back with interest?!
“Kathleen Wynne’s unfair hydro plan is a sham. The government’s own numbers confirm it and independent experts confirm it. Rates are going up. Period,” PC leader Patrick Brown said in a statement.

“It’s time for Kathleen Wynne to stop covering up the truth: under her plan, our hydro bills will go up. Everything will cost more. This will have a devastating impact on household budgets and the economy,” said Brown.

NDP MPP Peter Tabuns (Toronto Danforth) said “the impact is greater than we feared” of subsidizing ratepayers._

https://www.thestar.com/news/queens...-will-ultimately-cost-21b-watchdog-warns.html


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## yyz (Aug 11, 2013)

She is simply buying votes in next years election with your money,your kids money and your grandchildrens money etc .
People here were dumb enough to vote her in last time hopefully they learned a lesson.(but I doubt it)


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I am not understanding the discussions about hydro rates.

We rent a 3 bedroom townhouse (1300 square feet) and our hydro costs per month have risen from $100 to $120 a month over the past 10 years, which isn't a big deal.

There is just two of us and we use what I would consider a "normal" amount of hydro. We have natural gas heat paid by the landlord.

Our daughter in law rents a similar townhouse that is heated by electric baseboards and her hydro bill is $450 a month.

If the electric baseboard heating costs so much more........wouldn't it be better to retrofit such places to natural gas ?

From the article..........

_The average monthly hydro bill of $156 per household will drop to $123 once the 25-per-cent cut takes effect next month._

Who cares about a $33 a month savings ? The $24 Billion would be better spent on improving healthcare wait times.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

As far as Wynne goes, I voted for her but can't say that I will again for sure.

She doesn't appear to have any long term plan for hydro or much of anything else. She jumps from policy to policy.

But........who else do voters elect ?

Patrick Brown complains about the Wynne government but I have yet to hear what his policies would be.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

yyz said:


> She is simply buying votes in next years election with your money,your kids money and your grandchildrens money etc .
> People here were dumb enough to vote her in last time hopefully they learned a lesson.(but I doubt it)


This is exactly my opinion! This is simple math, why Ontarians so dumb?! The only people who will benefits -> very old seniors who doesn't have kids


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> As far as Wynne goes, I voted for her but can't say that I will again for sure.
> 
> She doesn't appear to have any long term plan for hydro or much of anything else. She jumps from policy to policy.


If even sags unsure, we have a chance to get rid of her.... 



> Patrick Brown complains about the Wynne government but I have yet to hear what his policies would be.


 I just cannot imagine that somebody will be worse than Wynne..

On Mar 24,


> Wynne's approval rating at shockingly low 12%


looks like only Ontario government workers support her


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

"The average monthly hydro bill of $156 per household will drop to $123 once the 25-per-cent cut takes effect next month.

Who cares about a $33 a month savings ? The $24 Billion would be better spent on improving healthcare wait times."

Totally agree Sags. 

Seriously, people can't afford $33 per month if hydro rates stayed the same but they can afford $1 M houses in Toronto? They can afford avocado toast at $20 per plate? What I am missing here?


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

I in the past have funded the Tories. Philosophically I am a small C fiscl conservative, but appreciate some liberal ideals if the cost aint to high.

Patrick Browns bag men were on the phone to me a week ago. 
I told them go away until I see some policy statements from the guy. 
Their script was he was to be going after Wynne and the high cost of hydro.

I asked what universe did they grow up on.
When you change a contract mid way, the escape clause is almost always more expensive than letting the contract run to expiry. 
When you contract you seek to price in risk and cash flow and make it someone else's problem. 
They price to cover risk and operating cost at a minimum, to the end of the period,. and want to keep that flow coming, so penalize clause the deal if it is.
That is how the business world generally operates.

Too bad the political world is so divorced from business realities

My aim while rates are 'down' is to invest to consume less, because unless I leave the province in retirement (and that is a possibility at the current rate of political foolishness) that will when this smelly egg of reduced hydro rates slated to be cracked open.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

sags said:


> ........wouldn't it be better to retrofit such places to natural gas ?


Natural gas is not available everywhere.


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

What's not getting enough attention, is one EXTREMELY important fact. The 21 billion dollar cost, is only if we have a *balanced budget for 30 years*. Are you frikking kidding me?



> The $45 billion is mostly the cost of funding an eight-per-cent rebate that took effect on bills in January, but that assumes balanced budgets for the next 30 years.





> The FAO says if the government has to fund that rebate through debt, the cost to the province could balloon up to $93 billion.



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hydro-1.4128902


What I find shocking, as equally as the dumb folks that can't do math, are the folks saying "well, who else am I gonna vote for". When you have had 14 years of the absolute worst government in a western society, how can you possibly have the slightest inclination to vote for them again? What's the logic here, give them a 5th term and they'll magically become competent? I'd absolutely vote for a monkey flinging his own poo, over the bozos in office now.


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## BoringInvestor (Sep 12, 2013)

Ponderling said:


> Patrick Browns bag men were on the phone to me a week ago.
> I told them go away until I see some policy statements from the guy.
> Their script was he was to be going after Wynne and the high cost of hydro.
> 
> ...


This is exactly the way I see it.

The PCs should know *why* electricity prices have risen the way they have, and what factors will push them up in the future.

If the Liberals have truly messed up the file, then I want to hear the PCs story about what they're going to do. 
Even if the story is: "we can't do much, but we won't make big errors in the future", that's an honest and appealing answer.

As it is, and based on previous election I don't have my hopes up. 
I expect to hear a lot of anger and frustration from them and sympathetic media about high prices, but no actual plans on what to do about it.

I don't vote for parties out of anger.


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

sags said:


> Our daughter in law rents a similar townhouse that is heated by electric baseboards and her hydro bill is $450 a month.
> 
> If the electric baseboard heating costs so much more........wouldn't it be better to retrofit such places to natural gas ?


Why would a landlord take on the expense of a retrofit to gas, when a landlord neither pays the energy costs, nor can deduct that cost in that year? Having just done it for my new home, digging trenches, installing furnace and ductwork ourselves, it was still quite pricey. More than 12 years ago, just having a new gas furnace installed for a <1000 sq ft house was $4,000. Ductwork and gas lines were already there.

I would bet that a retrofit, when a forced air appliance or boiler system was not already there, would result in over a $10,000 investment.


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

My Own Advisor said:


> "The average monthly hydro bill of $156 per household will drop to $123 once the 25-per-cent cut takes effect next month.
> 
> Who cares about a $33 a month savings ? The $24 Billion would be better spent on improving healthcare wait times."
> 
> ...


You are assuming everyone lives in Toronto, and eats $20 avocado toast. That's as ridiculous as assuming the average electrical bill is what those in colder areas of the province, or areas without natural gas lines pay.

Don't forget that under the current Ontario Liberal government, many costs have risen. Hello carbon tax, a recent increase in EVERYTHING.


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

Retired Peasant said:


> Natural gas is not available everywhere.


Not only that, but this foolish government has already said it wants us off natural gas heating, and on to electric. These people are either corrupt, have IQs of 4, or both. They also have NO shame.


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## BoringInvestor (Sep 12, 2013)

RCB said:


> and eats $20 avocado toast.


Aside - I love that this nonsense 'thing' has somehow become a meaningful talking point.


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

^ No kidding. I eat avocado toast many days. Ingedients cost me about $1.25.:applouse:


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## yyz (Aug 11, 2013)

Retired Peasant said:


> Natural gas is not available everywhere.


Propane would be


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

Yes, but while propane is less expensive than electricity, it is more expensive than gas, and requires the same retrofit expenses as gas.

I've been paying for two houses the last two years, as we gutted and renovated the second to live in. Current, roughly 1000 sq ft, gas for the winter at 21C was about $700 for the full year, tax and water heater use year round included. At the same time, the other, incomplete house (same size, much better with double wall insulation...2x8) was set at 15C for the winter as we worked, water heater not involved. The propane cost was $1,000+ between October and the beginning of May.

That said, the winter before, just running a baseboard heater at 5C in the insulated crawlspace for the well pump, cost $350 in electricity each month for the months of Dec., Jan., and Feb.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

gibor365 said:


> The only people who will benefits -> very old seniors who doesn't have kids


What's wrong with that


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## hboy54 (Sep 16, 2016)

RCB said:


> Yes, but while propane is less expensive than electricity, it is more expensive than gas, and requires the same retrofit expenses as gas.


A year ago out in the hinterland of Ontario when I was replacing my heating system with propane, electricity was about 8 times the price of gas, propane only about 4 times. have not looked at what is the current scenario as I don't need a refill yet.

City folk have no idea that natural gas is approximately free compared to the alternatives.

hboy54


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

RCB said:


> You are assuming everyone lives in Toronto, and eats $20 avocado toast. That's as ridiculous as assuming the average electrical bill is what those in colder areas of the province, or areas without natural gas lines pay.
> 
> Don't forget that under the current Ontario Liberal government, many costs have risen. Hello carbon tax, a recent increase in EVERYTHING.


I was being quite sarcastic...

I recognize for some people on a fixed and low-income, $33 savings per month is a big deal. For anyone that owns a home however it shouldn't be. Otherwise you own too much house.

Anyhow, the driver of this is to buy votes but I suspect it won't matter. She's on the way out.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

My Own Advisor said:


> I was being quite sarcastic...
> 
> I recognize for some people on a fixed and low-income, $33 savings per month is a big deal. For anyone that owns a home however it shouldn't be. Otherwise you own too much house.
> 
> Anyhow, the driver of this is to buy votes but I suspect it won't matter. She's on the way out.


The point is not in the amount, it's just so stupid, it's like "promo", you buy groceries this week with 20% discount and next week you pay 30% extra .


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

agent99 said:


> What's wrong with that


Nothing is wrong , I just should've add ".... and who is planning to die in the next 20 years"


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

gibor365 said:


> Nothing is wrong , I just should've add ".... and who is planning to die in the next 20 years"


Nothing wrong with that either - For me 

We have no gas, an older home with upgraded high efficiency heat pump, oodles of insulation. low loss windows, thermostats set low and yet we still have very high hydro bills ($4000pa) So we are the kind of household that will see a benefit.

The other initiative announced a while back, was to change the building codes so that NEW homes will be required to use more geothermal, high efficient heat pumps and less natural gas. That seems like a good idea, but we won't see benefits of that in our lifetime. And of course governments will probably change the game as they go along.


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

hboy54 said:


> City folk have no idea that natural gas is approximately free compared to the alternatives.



Not only are they in the dark about a lot of things, and want the universe to revolve around them, but somehow they love to eat up the crap the Liberals spew out, time and time again, with very little thought.



RCB said:


> Not only that, but this foolish government has already said it wants us off natural gas heating, and on to electric. These people are either corrupt, have IQs of 4, or both. They also have NO shame.


See my previous comments about a monkey flinging it's poo. As gross an image that is, it's a still a better way to pick policies than the corrupt and inept idiots in office now. And IQ of 4? Only when there's 6 of them together.

If you rule out corruption, then can anyone please explain to me why these idiots are hell bent on bankrupting us? They could still buy our votes with our own money, they can pay themselves stupid amounts of salary, and they can still push through some of their favorite "causes", but why do they keep making one disastrous financial mistake after another, after another, and another?


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

My Own Advisor said:


> I recognize for some people on a fixed and low-income, $33 savings per month is a big deal. For anyone that owns a home however it shouldn't be. Otherwise you own too much house.


So you are saying that anyone who currently pays $156/month for hydro and will be pleased to get a $33/month rebate shouldn't own their house???? Really????

We pay more than double the average for hydro and getting $66/month back will be a big deal for us. There are many other things we can use that money for.

There are many who already can barely cover their home expenses (especially in areas where there is no gas). Their hydro costs have doubled (up 100%) over the past 10 years while inflation has been about 16%. Over that same period wages have only increased by about 10%. It's no wonder that even a middle class home owner will be thrilled if they get a $33/month reduction in hydro costs.


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

agent99, geothermal wouldn't really be possible (I don't believe) in some locations. The house we are moving to has solid rock at less than 1 foot below surface in most areas, with some actually at surface. We had to laboriously drill through rock to put in propane and electrical lines.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Even though Wynne has 12% approval rating, there is a good chance she will be re-elected.... I talked to some Canadians who told me that they don't care who are candidates...they vote only for Liberal regardless..... brainwashing in schools is working


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

gibor....we have exactly the same challenge in Alberta. Many people vote Conservative-federally and provincially. Notwithstanding the leader, the policies, or their respective records. We found little difference in Ontario or Quebec when we lived there. 

We saw less of that 'voting for a party' come hell or high water when we lived in Vancouver. But then again there were some real loosers...the likes of Bill Vandersam and Glen Clark. Hard to be loyal to your party if one of those was your leader.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

RCB said:


> agent99, geothermal wouldn't really be possible (I don't believe) in some locations. The house we are moving to has solid rock at less than 1 foot below surface in most areas, with some actually at surface. We had to laboriously drill through rock to put in propane and electrical lines.


It can still be done. They drill vertically to 200 or 300 ft. much like drilling a well. A bit more expensive, but reach warmer temperatures than horizontal ground loops. We looked at them, but decided to go with an air source heat pump because of cost.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> we have exactly the same challenge in Alberta. Many people vote Conservative-federally and provincially. Notwithstanding the leader, the policies, or their respective records. We found little difference in Ontario or Quebec when we lived there.


 Yeah, right, and Notley is Conservative?!


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