# Electric Thermal Storage and heat pump



## Sasquatch (Jan 28, 2012)

I'm thinking about replacing my oil furnace(baseboard hot water with domestic hot water coil) with a mini split ductless heat pump (or pumps) and an ETS hot water furnace. 

Just wondering if anybody out there has any experience with a hydronic ETS furnace, which would allow me to keep using all my existing radiators and plumbing and just change the heat source from oil to electric. 

A time of day use program from my utility would allow my furnace to store power at roughly 50% of regular rates during "off peak" times and then use the stored heat during peak rate times. This would extend to my total power consumption.

I am so ready to get rid of oil because of the cost(keeps going up even though crude keeps dropping), the expensive annual maintenance and cleaning and in my case the difficulty of delivering oil to my house during severe winters. I'm down on the bottom of a steep narrow lane which presents a real challenge to oil trucks in the winter.

According to what I have read, heatpumps should be able to heat/cool my house exclusively with the exception of about 3 to 4 months in the winter when I will need auxiliary heat (ETS)

I'd appreciate any comments especially from folks who may have experience with this sort of arrangement.


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

Firstly, we live in Kelowna, BC where we have warm summers and cooler winters and while we do not have the setup you are referring to we installed a good quality heat pump (replacing a 20 yr old one) and at the same time also replaced our electric furnace with a new one. The heat pump works great, particularly as an air conditioner, but when the electric heat kicks in during extreme cold temperatures we get hammered in electricity costs. In retrospect, I think I should have gone with a new gas furnace as opposed to electric but I cheaped out over the cost to get the gas to the house. On the other hand, a spike in natural gas prices similar to what occurred some years back would have made the choice a bad one. Our house is a well insulated (R56 in the ceiling which really helps) and is a 2100 sq ft rancher with finished lower level for a total of 4200 sq ft. Our annual electrical bill is around $2800. PA and remember we have no gas and use electricity for hot water, back up heat, etc.


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## Sasquatch (Jan 28, 2012)

frase said:


> Firstly, we live in Kelowna, BC where we have warm summers and cooler winters and while we do not have the setup you are referring to we installed a good quality heat pump (replacing a 20 yr old one) and at the same time also replaced our electric furnace with a new one. The heat pump works great, particularly as an air conditioner, but when the electric heat kicks in during extreme cold temperatures we get hammered in electricity costs. In retrospect, I think I should have gone with a new gas furnace as opposed to electric but I cheaped out over the cost to get the gas to the house. On the other hand, a spike in natural gas prices similar to what occurred some years back would have made the choice a bad one. Our house is a well insulated (R56 in the ceiling which really helps) and is a 2100 sq ft rancher with finished lower level for a total of 4200 sq ft. Our annual electrical bill is around $2800. PA and remember we have no gas and use electricity for hot water, back up heat, etc.


Thanks for the reply...... What I am counting on is that the cheaper power rates at night will make a substantial difference in my power bills. Also I would heat my domestic hot water at night and maybe even pre heat it with a solar system.
One question...... what is the outside temperature range where you can keep your house heated solely with your heat pump(s). At what outside temp do you need your electric heat for a supplement? My house is similar in size to yours with 2 storeys and a garage and a finished basement.


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

I have a Bryant Evolution 288 with I believe 19 SEER. I have my heat pump lock out set at 22 deg Fah or about -5 C. I am probably pushing it at that. The newer units are very sophisticated with automatic multiple fan speeds, auto defrost, emergency heat, and high and low stage and the same with my electric furnace. I get hammered in the cold weather and my electric bill (the whole house is electric) would probably hit a high of around $800. for two months. During the shoulder season and summer I am guessing at maybe 350. for 2 months. Natural gas would be better in the winter and a friend of mine with gas just shuts his heat pump off in the winter. Again, my total runs about 2500-2800. PA. Varies due to weather and if we take a winter vacation, etc.


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## OurBigFatWallet (Jan 20, 2014)

Would a heat pump be a feasible option in a colder climate area like Alberta?


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

We heat about 1400sq.ft. of our home in Ontario with a Mitsubishi Zuba heat pump. This is a ducted system, but Mitsubishi also have wall hung ductless systems. Our system requires no supplemental heat although we do still have baseboard heaters that could be used, but never are. In your case, having an electric hot water boiler that could supply supplemental heat via your baseboard units is a good idea, since you already have most of what you need in place.

Mitsubishi are the only heat pump manufacturer that uses the special H2i Hyper Heat technology that allows them to still provide heat with outside temperatures down to -25C. Not all their wall hung units have this technology, so speak to a knowledgeable dealer.

These are not cheap units, but the only ones I found that were suitable for HEATING in our climate. Most others are nothing more than an electric furnace and only provide saving in the fringe seasons when outdoor temperatures are higher.

We did not use the wall hung units because our home is a single level with many rooms. The wall hung units might work better in an open concept type home.

Mitsubishi info here: 
http://www.mitsubishielectric.ca/en/hvac/m-series/index.html
this Toronto dealer has some good info :http://www.ductless.ca/

I assume you don't have gas available, because a good option would be a gas fired hot water boiler feeding your baseboard units. But then you would have no A/C. We do have gas at highway, but cost of bringing it in was quite high. We would have then put a hot water coil in the duct air handler instead of the heat pump coil. But then we would have had to have a separate air conditioning unit. We already had ducts but still spent about $15-$20k (extra because of added insulation, etc)


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

I can't make the economics of these things work ever. But I'm in ON where the electricity rates are pretty high. 

Anyone have any links to sites where they compare fossil fuel to heat pumps? Maybe my math is way off.


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

Not so sure the economics work due to the high cost of the better units. We installed one as our old one was about 20 yrs old and deemed in not worth fixing. 
As our furnace was also old we replaced it as well. Also, they tend to be a bit finicky and require more service. In retrospect I maybe should have put in a new nat gas furnace and an air conditioner but the wide fluctuations and high gas prices at the time scared me off. Gas prices at the time were 10.00 gigajoule vs under 3.00 now. At 10.00 our bills would have been HUGE. To answer your question another way, the comparison would depend on the cost of electricity, the unit itself, and the future cost of fossil fuel. Tough call as it seems the cost of nat gas may remain low for the forseable future but who knows?


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## Sasquatch (Jan 28, 2012)

I'm pretty sure that Nova Scotia has the highest electric power rates in Canada (WooHoo) so my plan for an electric furnace might not be the best. However, I've got to get away from oil deliveries because of the difficulty of delivery with a truck in the winter.

Last winter was so bad , I couldn't get the oil truck down to my house and I was running out of oil. I had to resort to pumping furnace oil at a local gas station into three 25 liter containers, hauling them home in my car and dumping the oil by hand into my oil tank. 

Had to do this twice and don't want to do it again.

Unfortunately I have no access to natural gas even though it's available in some parts of Halifax but not where I live.

Maybe I'll start building my own nuclear reactor


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

What about a heat pump and retain your existing set up for colder temps when the heat pump won't keep us? With the heat pump your oil may last the season if it was topped up before the cold weather sets in. Also, could you not have another oil tank installed and fill them both up before the cold weather. Don't know anything about oil and your set up and maybe I'm all wet. I paid just over $10,000. for the heat pump and furnace. Perhaps check out your local utility web site for ideas and also do internet searches for alternatives. Unfortunately I don't think there is a perfect answer.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

In our case, the installation cost for the Mitsubishi Zuba and a high efficiency gas fired furnace would have been about the same. Heat pump itself was more expensive, but building a furnace room and bringing gas in increased gas installation cost. Heat pump average efficiency is 200% while gas furnace would have been about 93%. I don't have current gas/electricity costs handy but with those efficiencies and quif quif installation cost, we went with heat pump.

For many, the decision is made due to location. In rural areas, there is seldom gas. So you go with electric heat with or without heat pump, oil, wood or propane.
Propane may be an option for Sasquatch, but it still has to be delivered. It at least doesn't have the problem with tank corrosion and need for expensive inspections.

I wouldn't think about a heat pump if it wasn't the Mitsubishi because conventional units just don't provide heating for enough of the heating season. And I would only use the Mitsubishi if ducts are available or if the house layout suits installation of no more than say two wall hung high efficiency units.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Sasquatch I am also in Nova Scotia and currently heat with 2 Mitsubishi hyper heat ductless heat pumps, and back up of 3 ETS units, in floor electric in part of home and a few electric baseboards. We have electric 40 gal hot water heater. We are on time of use billing. 

My previous home (R2000) had centrally ducted HE heat pump with back up electric strip, and electric hot water so I am quite familiar with the way these systems work. This unit heated to -12 before the back up kicked in. I also sold ductless units as part of my living before retiring. 

To answer some questions: the ductless units we have now will heat to -25C. The coldest we have seen is -22 here and at that ambient temp the units will push air temp ~40C or 105F range. If your home is fairly well insulated and tight and the units sized properly they will work well to heat/cool. Typical ductless systems will heat slightly down to -18C but are really only useful to -12C. However ductless units really are only suitable for homes with an open floor plan. 

I don't have experience with the hydroponic system you're speaking of.

FYI, NSPC is currently doing an experiment with time of use for people without ETS so its possible this may be coming for all customers. If you have any other questions please feel free to PM me.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

RBull said:


> To answer some questions: the ductless units we have now will heat to -25C. The coldest we have seen is -22 here and at that ambient temp the units will push air temp ~40C or 105F range. If your home is fairly well insulated and tight and the units sized properly they will work well to heat/cool. Typical ductless systems will heat slightly down to -18C but are really only useful to -12C. However ductless units really are only suitable for homes with an open floor plan.


That's pretty well what I found and mentioned in an earlier post. We already had A/C ducts, so used them for the Mitsubishi Zuba, which is a central unit. 

If I were Sasqutach, I would look at converting existing system to propane (add propane fired water boiler). Fill tank (500-1000gal) before first snow blows! Then look at adding one or two Mitsubishi hyper heat wall hung units in main living areas - these would provide part of heating but also cooling during summer. Cost of propane vs electricity something to consider.


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## Sasquatch (Jan 28, 2012)

Thanks for all your comments, I haven't thought much about some of your suggestions and this will get my brain going again 

I'm going to get a price for having a second oil tank installed which, in conjunction with the existing one) should get me through the worst part of winter. Thanks for the suggestion...frase

I'm going to do some more research on heat pumps and ETS systems before making any commitments.

Since my wife and I are approaching the magic number of 70 very rapidly, I will also have to be mindful of the payback period for these systems. 

My guestimate is that we will be living here for another 10 years or so before skipping off into the sunset to a retirement place of some sort. But one never knows what the future may bring.


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