# Ontario teachers need to get their act together



## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

The teachers are committing child abuse by filling the minds of children with a junk heap of lies regarding we are causing global warming & now climate change since the trend has changed. The teachers instead should be teaching the laws of logic & principals of thought so kids instead can remove that which is untrue & replace it with that which is true.

Having a second school system that teaches kids about talking snakes is a complete joke & causing tax payers a fortune. The teachers need to look @ themselves & figure it out & stop wasting the tax payers money.

Not sure if it is still the case of getting over 20 sick days a year which they could bank & get $100,000 plus bonus on retirement. With all the stat holidays & vacation time they hardly ever work yet they make some big coin for a wage earner.


It would probably be best to shut down all public schools & let people figure it out themselves how to school their children. The government could not even run a bubble gum machine without running a huge deficit.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

There's nothing like suggesting you know everything about a topic and in fact simply demonstrating your ignorance of the subject as you have done here.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Personally I blame Doug Ford for all this turmoil and strife.


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Keep the population dumb. It's a trend.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I actually feel somewhat sorry for Ontario's Minister of Education, Stephen Lecce. His hands are tied by Doug Ford who has told him, 1% raise and no more, not open to negotiation. How can anyone be asked to negotiate an agreement when they have no room to negotiate?

At the same time though I do think he has a choice. He could simply tell Ford, stick your job, and resign. But of course then he as an individual, would be without a pay cheque and I guess he doesn't want to be in that position anymore than anyone else would. So in that regard I blame him for not standing up to Ford and saying, 'if you want me to do my job, then leave me to do it without telling me what I can and cannot do, or I will quit.'


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> There's nothing like suggesting you know everything about a topic and in fact simply demonstrating your ignorance of the subject as you have done here.


 You are right I was wrong about the sick days. Now that sick days can not be banked there has been a spike in the number of sick days taken by teachers source Ontario auditor general posted CBC news Dec 6 2017.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

lonewolf :) said:


> The teachers are committing child abuse by filling the minds of children with a junk heap of lies regarding we are causing global warming & now climate change since the trend has changed. The teachers instead should be teaching the laws of logic & principals of thought so kids instead can remove that which is untrue & replace it with that which is true.
> 
> Having a second school system that teaches kids about talking snakes is a complete joke & causing tax payers a fortune. The teachers need to look @ themselves & figure it out & stop wasting the tax payers money.
> 
> ...





lonewolf :) said:


> You are right I was wrong about the sick days. Now that sick days can not be banked there has been a spike in the number of sick days taken by teachers source Ontario auditor general posted CBC news Dec 6 2017.


So what is the point of your posts? From what I can tell it may be one of the following things you don't like:

- That they are teaching current concerns of climate change/global warming - Keep in mind when I was in school they taught about global warming and the environment. I also learned that Pluto was a planet and that there were only two territories in Canada. The point is as the concerns of the world changes and new information is found, then schools must adapt. I remember when I was a kid (grade 4) , I asked why it was not okay for two people of the same gender to get married. I was sent in detention. Things change.

- The teachers don't set the curriculum in my province. So do you have a beef with the teacher who deliver the curriculum or the curriculum.

- Good teachers will teach critical thinking, my kids school does. However, I teach critical thinking to my kids. There is a blurry line between fact and opinion. Your post is proof of that. You did not provide a single truth or fact. 

- Are you against the Catholic system? If so, realize it's there because some people still believe in that system of beliefs. its not the teachers faults if their is still a demand for it. If parents choose to send their kids to a second system, then you may as criticize them too. 

- Is it the number of sick you don't like? Have you been in a school and seen the type of crap the schools have to deal with? Teachers aren't just there to teach, they are having a ton more kids with social, mental and health reasons. There is less parental involvement so teachers are acting in roles where the parents should. I feel I still don't do enough with my kids as there is not enough time in the day sometimes, yet I have been told by the teachers that I have more of a pulse of what's going on in my kids life than many parents do. AND my kids go to a school that there is a higher involvement of parents than other areas of the city.

- Is it the salaries. Maybe some of the teachers aren't worth their salaries, but based on what I have seen in the classroom, you couldn't pay me enough to do what they do. I make more than al teachers, and I feel what they do is more important and harder than what I do. 

Don't get me wrong. I think there could be a lot of improvements. Remember that the education system is a reflection of the values and challenges of the society. 

So, I ask what is your complaint?


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Plugging Along said:


> So what is the point of your posts? From what I can tell it may be one of the following things you don't like:
> 
> - That they are teaching current concerns of climate change/global warming - Keep in mind when I was in school they taught about global warming and the environment. I also learned that Pluto was a planet and that there were only two territories in Canada. The point is as the concerns of the world changes and new information is found, then schools must adapt. I remember when I was a kid (grade 4) , I asked why it was not okay for two people of the same gender to get married. I was sent in detention. Things change.
> 
> ...


 I think the union members should get together & figure out how to make cut backs because I think there is enough money thrown @ education i.e., they are concerned about kids special needs these few kids that totally disrupt the class & teachers can not handle. The Catholic schools need to go to reduce costs & the money saved could be used for kids with special needs. Or perhaps since teachers work very few days a year the special needs kids could go to school on holidays & weekends. If a teacher phones in sick instead of getting paid day off they could make up for the day missed by working the weekend.

A lot of kids are traveling to play sports such as hockey instead of playing against other kids in their area which would also save a lot of money.

I am not involved with the school system though it is obvious there are a few things the teachers should do to cut down on costs. Since the teachers are on the front lines they should make a reasonable effort to do so instead of waiting for the government to do it for them.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

The food program are also costing a fortune. It is a lot cheaper to send kids with a lunch made from home. Any kids on the program the parents should have money taken out of money the government gives for having the kids to cover the costs of the food program.

A friend of mine delivers food to the schools. There is 1 native school where there are cigar butts in the ash tray in the school office. Since the schools are on lock down its kinda hard for an agent to see whats going on when a buzzer has to be rung in front of a video camera. Then all they say is it is just sage burning they smell.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Doug Ford eliminated the revenue from carbon taxes and cut taxes for the wealthy.

Now his government comes up short on money and wants to make cuts in education, healthcare and social programs.

Ontario voters are getting yet another reminder of why they shouldn't vote Conservative.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

lonewolf :) said:


> I think the union members should get together & figure out how to make cut backs because I think there is enough money thrown @ education i.e., they are concerned about kids special needs these few kids that totally disrupt the class & teachers can not handle. The Catholic schools need to go to reduce costs & the money saved could be used for kids with special needs. Or perhaps since teachers work very few days a year the special needs kids could go to school on holidays & weekends. If a teacher phones in sick instead of getting paid day off they could make up for the day missed by working the weekend.
> 
> A lot of kids are traveling to play sports such as hockey instead of playing against other kids in their area which would also save a lot of money.
> 
> I am not involved with the school system though it is obvious there are a few things the teachers should do to cut down on costs. Since the teachers are on the front lines they should make a reasonable effort to do so instead of waiting for the government to do it for them.





lonewolf :) said:


> The food program are also costing a fortune. It is a lot cheaper to send kids with a lunch made from home. Any kids on the program the parents should have money taken out of money the government gives for having the kids to cover the costs of the food program.
> 
> A friend of mine delivers food to the schools. There is 1 native school where there are cigar butts in the ash tray in the school office. Since the schools are on lock down its kinda hard for an agent to see whats going on when a buzzer has to be rung in front of a video camera. Then all they say is it is just sage burning they smell.


I am still confused at what you are complaining about. Are you upset with the government, teachers, administration, or parents? Let’s play with some of your new ‘points’
- too much money thrown at education. That’s pretty subjective. I know that money put into education has the largest multiplying effect on further earnings. An uneducated group of people leads to lack of critical thinking. I have know idea how much is thrown in Ontario specifically.
- not efficient - yes I could believe that with many public services. However, i have learned that often the reason for lack of efficiency in public service vs private is that public demands more but doesn’t want O pay less. I have run efficiency reviews and there is a lot of time and money wasted trying to answer all the questions the public demands. Though, I am sure there are areas that can be improved
- special & disruptive needs kids - you want to isolate them so they don’t get the same access to public education. Let’s separate them to ensure we teach them they are discriminate against. This is probably one of the more ignorant things you have said, and that says a lot. They are the ones that need the most help. Let’s degrade and segregate them with the special needs so they lack any chance of integrating with society. Maybe we should start iq testing and behaviour testing so only the most worthy can get an education. My kids are both considered special needs. They considered gifted and learn different than other kids. They also listen, and do not disrupt in class. In a regular class they are expected to help all of the classmates behind, and are bored to death. By definition, they have the highest potential as their mental capacities exceed more than 98% of the population. Your suggestions indicate they should go to school in the weekends and holidays. Spoken like someone who has never had kids. 
- your suggest having teachers make up sick days and work holidays. So they do not get the same rights that every other employee does. The school schedule isn’t done by teachers. You realize what a logician nightmare that would be for parents, administration, kids, and teachers. 
- what does a parents choice to have their kids play a competitive sports have anything to do with the teachers or money savings for the government 
- I am not aware of the food program as none of the schools we have have had them other than a cafeteria which the families pay for. If it’s a lunch program for those in need, perhaps it is required because otherwise the kids wouldn’t eat because their parents can’t afford it. These are most likely the kids who are most vulnerable so asking their parents to send them food may just not happen. 


Your suggestions and complaints are mostly random and lack logic or any critical thinking. Perhaps is why you are so biased against education as you have have shown in your past posts.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Doug Ford eliminated the revenue from carbon taxes and cut taxes for the wealthy.
> 
> Now his government comes up short on money and wants to make cuts in education, healthcare and social programs.
> 
> Ontario voters are getting yet another reminder of why they shouldn't vote Conservative.


What cuts?
Really, the budget for edcuation has increased, despite falling enrollment. 

The last Contract for education workers included raises. They're proposing raises for this contract.

The teachers are already very highly paid, they're making an average $90k. That's a very very good wage. 

I actually don't know what the sticking point it. I think the teachers union wants more jobs to deal with "special needs". 

They see the same declining enrolment numbers, so they're pushing hard for more jobs.
They're trying to spin it as "no cuts", but with a salary raise, and increased overall education funding. I really honestly don't see where the "cuts" are.

If the wealthy got tax cuts, the teachers already benefit, because they're wealthy. They're nearly in the top decile of wage earners in the province.
They should be thankful and accept their raise and get back to work.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

lonewolf :) said:


> The teachers are committing child abuse by filling the minds of children with *a junk heap of lies regarding we are causing global warming* & now climate change since the trend has changed. The teachers instead should be *teaching the laws of logic & principals of thought so kids instead can remove that which is untrue & replace it with that which is true.
> *
> Having *a second school system that teaches kids about talking snakes is a complete joke* & causing tax payers a fortune. The teachers need to look @ themselves & figure it out & stop wasting the tax payers money.


Make up your mind!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Sometimes I read some comments in a forum and wonder just how people get some of the ideas they have. Armchair quarterbacks one and all.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/its-real-easy-armchair-quarterback-marc-medley

We all do this to some degree at least, but at least when some of us do so, we have some idea of what we are talking about. Some of the comments in this particular thread demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge but a very high degree of armchair quarterbacking, to the degree of just being ridiculous.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Sometimes I read some comments in a forum and wonder just how people get some of the ideas they have. Armchair quarterbacks one and all.
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/its-real-easy-armchair-quarterback-marc-medley
> 
> We all do this to some degree at least, but at least when some of us do so, we have some idea of what we are talking about. Some of the comments in this particular thread demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge but a very high degree of armchair quarterbacking, to the degree of just being ridiculous.


It's much easier to manipulate people when they're uninformed.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Our municipal taxes are going up 4.4%. The cost of everything is going up. The teachers are asking for a 2% increase.

The Ford government has cut funding to education and healthcare. All the school boards and hospitals have announced layoffs and cutbacks due to the budget cuts.

Doug Ford is so unpopular he hides from the public. He will be lucky if his own caucus doesn't revolt and throw him out.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Our municipal taxes are going up 4.4%. The cost of everything is going up. The teachers are asking for a 2% increase.
> 
> The Ford government has cut funding to education and healthcare. All the school boards and hospitals have announced layoffs and cutbacks due to the budget cuts.
> 
> Doug Ford is so unpopular he hides from the public. He will be lucky if his own caucus doesn't revolt and throw him out.


Wages are shrinking, but the government keeps hiking taxes.
That's the problem, government spending, which is largely salaries, is growing out of proportion to the income of the average taxpayer

What numbers actually show cuts to health care and education.
I keep seeing this, but based on the budgets spending for both education and healthcare are increasing.

Specific programs and adjustments have been cut, but overall program spending continues to grow out of control


In my city,the budget is a 4% tax hike, this is WAY above the wage growth or inflation, but they hike anyway.

They just can't stop wasting money. 
I wonder, where do these people think the money is coming from?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Anyone living in Ontario knows their hospitals and health care systems are underfunded and don't meet demands.

Overcrowded emergency rooms and hospitals, year long waits for elective surgery, the lack of family doctors, are all symptoms of underfunding.

In the education system, the government said it is reducing costs by raising the number of students per classroom, eliminating educational aides, and reducing teachers through attrition.

A large portion of the extra funding is set aside for severance pay and other downsizing costs. The money is temporary financing until the reduction in staff is complete.

Governments can't fool anyone when voters are living the results of their local hospitals and schools needing more funding. 

They can tell people it is alright......but people know from their own experiences that it isn't.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Anyone living in Ontario knows their hospitals and health care systems are underfunded and don't meet demands.
> 
> Overcrowded emergency rooms and hospitals, year long waits for elective surgery, the lack of family doctors, are all symptoms of underfunding.
> 
> ...


The number of dollars being spent is increasing every single year.

They're reducing the number of teachers, because there are fewer students. << that is what the union is REALLY scared of.
Again the spending on education keeps increasing every year.


I think it's unfortunate that the wealthy can get their high school credits online through E-learning. 
But those with less money don't get that option.


The reality is that the "CUTS" people are complaining about are simply not getting as much money as they want.

If they got $100million last year, and want $120 million this year, and the gov gives them $105 million, they decry the $15 million dollar cut.
If they give them a one time "building improvement fund" of $100 million, then don't give them another one time fund the next year, they'll call that cuts.

It's ridiculous, but that's the new debating strategy. Lie, and use a silly definition of the word.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> The teachers are already very highly paid, they're making an average $90k. That's a very very good wage.


10 working month per year (less March Break & Christmas - that's an additional 3 wks off per year). 11 paid sick days and one of the best benefit plans and pensions out there. They have it pretty good and they know it.

Met a young girl the other day, starting out as a Registered Nurse. The union was one of the main decisions in her career path. She was so excited over the benefits, pension, etc.

A relative of mine graduated with a law degree and decided to go into the OPP - benefits, pension, union, etc.

Try getting a township job in a small community - you better have a good left hook.

Something is wrong here.

Good luck Mr Ford.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Sounds like an advertisement for unions.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Comparing elementary teacher wages and benefits to those of a day care worker and it begs the question.

Do teachers earn too much or day care workers earn too little ?

Compare a housekeeper in the hospital to a housekeeper in a hotel and it begs the question.

Does a hospital housekeeper earn too much or a housekeeper in a hotel earn too little ?

What makes the difference ? In a word......unions. 

Unions provide the means for people to act together to achieve a better result. Without unions employees have no bargaining power at all.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> Comparing elementary teacher wages and benefits to those of a day care worker and it begs the question.
> 
> Do teachers earn too much or day care workers earn too little ?
> 
> ...


Absolute nonsense sags. When I was an employee without a union, I had all the bargaining power I needed. Most of my working life I earned more than my peers. Why? Because I was better at what I did than they were. It's called MERIT. 

What unions do is remove merit from the equation. Unions benefit the 'adequate' worker, they do not benefit the 'superior' worker. The superior worker does not NEED a union to have bargaining power.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

How do you know you earned more than your peers ? Union wages are posted in the contract book. Where are non-union wages posted ?

Maybe Bob sitting in the corner doing crossword puzzles earned more than you because he golfed with the boss on Wednesday nights.

The salaried employees (our bosses) earned considerably less than we did. They always complained when informed of their annual "merit" increase, or lack of one. 

It was predicable. They would troop into the head office with anticipation and then come out scowling and sulking and asking if they could join the union.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Never was it more clear to how companies viewed their employees than when years ago all companies had to achieve "pay equity" for women in their workplace.

It didn't matter what jobs or skill sets the women possessed, the company always wanted to compare them and match their wages to part time cashiers at Walmart.

Companies fought for years trying to avoid paying women the same salary as men, so "merit" didn't appear all that important to them.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Sags, you have a very limited view of the world. 

If you want to know who is getting paid the most, you don't golf with the CEO, you lunch with the CFO. You also don't get paid the most by golfing with your boss on Wednesday NIGHTS, you get paid the most by golfing with CUSTOMERS on Wednesday AFTERNOONS. 

In my working life it took a bit of ingenuity and effort to discover which companies paid the most and who in a company was earning the most among their peers but it was doable. Nowadays, you just go to an online site like Glassdoor to find out. https://www.moneyunder30.com/best-salary-information-websites

After my first few years of sales experience, I never went into an office and was told what my increase was going to be. I went into an office and NEGOTIATED my increase. When you are the highest producing salesperson in a company who has just closed the single largest order in the history of the company, you have 'bargaining power' sags. When a company that has never hired a 'Sales Engineer' who is not in fact an Engineer, hires you as a Sales Engineer regardless, there is a reason why they do that. 
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/23/glassdoor-the-7-highest-paying-sales-jobs-in-the-us.html

Don't keep thinking the working world all works like the automotive industry does. They couldn't afford me.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The only regret I ever had about my sales career and only because I could probably have retired a few years earlier as a result, was that I never got into selling private jets.

I made sales of individual computer based systems that exceeded the million dollar mark more than once. A sale that big has a long 'sales cycle' which means the time it takes form when someone in a company first decides they need to buy something, to when they actually place an order with a supplier. With the larger sales I made, that sales cycle took 6-12 months usually. The sales cycle for private jet sales is much the same but the starting price is roughly 10 times as much and so is the commission.
https://www.sellingpower.com/2010/02/02/8082/jim-taylor-americas-number-one-jet-salesman

'I coulda been a contender'.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Never was it more clear to how companies viewed their employees than when years ago all companies had to achieve "pay equity" for women in their workplace.
> 
> It didn't matter what jobs or skill sets the women possessed, the company always wanted to compare them and match their wages to part time cashiers at Walmart.
> 
> Companies fought for years trying to avoid paying women the same salary as men, so "merit" didn't appear all that important to them.


I've never seen a company do that.
I have seen them treat HR with disdain as a lesser department, and I've seen a lot of women in HR. But at the same company purchasing, which was also more women, was highly regarded as an integral department.

I think a lot of the pay discrepancies are due to choices people make. That's what the research says.
But most people suck at math and science, so they believe these myths.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Employees have no leverage in that kind of negotiation and companies have no motivation to reward employees that are a replaceable component of their business.

Most likely the company would invite the employee to head off to greener pastures with their "best wishes" in tow.............LOL.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Unions were heavily involved in pay equity issues, and the results have benefited all women........union or non-union members.

One of the benefits of unions has been the flow of their hard fought concessions into employment in the entire general workforce.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Comparing elementary teacher wages and benefits to those of a day care worker and it begs the question.
> 
> Do teachers earn too much or day care workers earn too little ?
> 
> ...


The difference between day care workers and teachers is daycares have to compete in the market, and teachers are a government monopoly.

The math of paying $90k/yr for a daycare worker simply doesn't make sense. You can only watch about 4 full time kids/day (once you consider work hours etc)
That means each kid must pull in over $25k/yr, plus overhead, which means the daycare would need to charge at least $40-50k/yr once you include benefits, buildings meals, insurance etc.

Very few parents can afford daycare at that rate.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

sags said:


> Never was it more clear to how companies viewed their employees than when years ago all companies had to achieve "pay equity" for women in their workplace.
> 
> It didn't matter what jobs or skill sets the women possessed, the company always wanted to compare them and match their wages to part time cashiers at Walmart.
> 
> Companies fought for years trying to avoid paying women the same salary as men, so "merit" didn't appear all that important to them.


 Women primary focus is usually on having & raising kids, Men usually primary focus is on their job & supporting the family. From my experience women miss more work to be with the kids i.e., stay @ home when the kids or sick or miss work to see Christmas concerts, soccer games etc.

Years ago when women had lots of babies of course companies would want to pay them less since they would be off having babies instead of working.

Women live longer then men which also costs pension funds more .

In physical jobs if women could perform as well as men they should be able to perform sports as well also. Yet in sports they divide the 2 because in most sports men have an advantage.

Companies that want to stay in business focus on the bottom line not losing money to be political correct.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Cretaceous period thinking.....


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

lonewolf :) said:


> Women primary focus is usually on having & raising kids, Men usually primary focus is on their job & supporting the family. From my experience women miss more work to be with the kids i.e., stay @ home when the kids or sick or miss work to see Christmas concerts, soccer games etc.
> 
> Years ago when women had lots of babies of course companies would want to pay them less since they would be off having babies instead of working.
> 
> ...


I've also seen a lot of people take significant pay cuts for more flexibility.
A job where you're travelling 20+ days a month is tough, but may pay very well. It's hard to balance family with that kind of work, and most parents who prioritize family would opt out of that.
I know more dads than moms who make that choice.

Even shift work etc, lots of Dads work shifts, lots of Moms want jobs where they can be home when the kids get off school.
That flexibility has a value, and you get paid for it.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

Unions would bankrupt the average small business. Their wages, benefits, etc. are unsustainable.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Synergy said:


> Unions would bankrupt the average small business. Their wages, benefits, etc. are unsustainable.


The reason for the hollowing out of the private sector in the Western world, particularly in manufacturing. Until and unless the unions become extinct, the decline will continue.

Plus we need governments to ensure equal opportunity for both union and non-union contractors on construction contracts. Our BC govt is bankrupting the taxpayer with its insistence on union contractors. Time to dump those NDP b*stards.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Without government regulations and unions, employees would be reduced to beggars working for their next meal.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We know how powerless employees are treated from watching the rest of the world. 

Child labor, low wages, no benefits, no health or safety regulations, disposable employees.....isn't what Canadians want for their country.

Sometimes I do wonder what the motivation is for the Conservatives to advocate for lower wages and fewer benefits, rights and safety regulations for employees.

It seems like Conservatives are always at war with workers, particularly with those who have built the slightest protections for themselves by forming unions. 

They seem to believe the tremendous gains achieved by unions that have migrated to all workers would have been granted by generous companies in any event.

That is a naive and false belief, as anyone with experience in the adversarial employee/employer relationship knows all too well.


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## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

sags said:


> We know how powerless employees are treated from watching the rest of the world.
> 
> Child labor, low wages, no benefits, no health or safety regulations, disposable employees.....isn't what Canadians want for their country.
> 
> ...


this is because traditional conservatism (i.e fiscal responsibility through efficiency, rules, and fairness) does not exist anymore. all conservatism has been infiltrated by right wing religious, sexist, anti vaxxer terrorists who have no agenda to actually make things better. They are led by millionaires paid by far right billionaires to spew idiocy and hatred.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Without government regulations and unions, employees would be reduced to beggars working for their next meal.


I'm all for government regulations, without them some employers would get quite scummy.

As for unions, they have a place, but they almost always squeeze the employer to death.

One reason taxes are high, and government is so inefficient, is that they overpay their staff. It's not fair that some people make more, not because they deliver more value, but simply because their employer has the power to simply take my money.

We don't allow this anywhere else. Heck, the government is even looking at further regulation of optional services like cell phone plans!
I'd love to see some regulation to limit tax hikes to median income growth.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is a natural built-in 4 - 6% annual inflation factor for government budgets due to increased population and demand for services.

Cutting taxes isn't possible without cutting services, raising taxes, or acquiring debt.

What the government can and should do is concentrate spending on where it will grow the economy, which will produce higher government revenues in the future.

The last few years the federal government has reported higher revenues than forecast. This is largely due to spending by the Trudeau government in the right places.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> There is a natural built-in 4 - 6% annual inflation factor for government budgets due to increased population and demand for services.
> 
> Cutting taxes isn't possible without cutting services, raising taxes, or acquiring debt.
> 
> ...



Okay, that's the problem. 
You can't increase government spending and taxes faster than wage growth+population growth. 

In my city, they've been hiking taxes faster than wage growth for years, and its causing problems. 
To hide this from voters, they're going to tax employers even higher. Companies are often choosing to locate outside the city because of high taxes, and this isn't going to help attract jobs.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Government spending increases as a consequence of natural economic forces. Wages need to rise to accommodate the increases in spending.

When wages are stagnant, as they have been for decades, it creates the economic consequences readily witnessed today.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Government spending increases as a consequence of natural economic forces. Wages need to rise to accommodate the increases in spending.
> 
> When wages are stagnant, as they have been for decades, it creates the economic consequences readily witnessed today.


Spending needs to be at an affordable level.
You can't spend more than you make without running into trouble.

You can argue that incomes should be higher, but the reality is they aren't.
So when you take more and more from the middle class to give to the rich, you're going to have a serious problem. 

If the wages were higher, it wouldn't be an issue,. But they aren't, and the government should be realistic.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

All the school boards were on strike on Friday. That is the first time it happened since the Mike Harris (Conservative) government created a crisis 27 years ago.

One of the key issues is class size. The government wants to raise the average from 22 students to 28, while eliminating educational assistants.

Teachers say they can't address the needs of their students with that size of classes. Parents are walking the picket lines with the teachers.

Doug Ford has been invisible. His introduction of the new license plates that can't be read at night are occupying all his time. Yet another unnecessary screw up by the Ford government.

https://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca...ord-s-licence-plate-fumble-doesn-t-bode-well/

*When you factor in enrolment growth, the amount spent per student this year is actually down from the previous year. 
*_
*The per-pupil grant is $12,246, down from $12,300 in the 2018-19 school year. *
_
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...ike-education-funding-increase-cuts-1.5462332

The Ford government is trying the old..."_don't believe your lying eyes_" political gambit, and it is failing as badly as their new licence plates.

Doug Ford's popularity is lower than a snake's belly. He is so unpopular it is questionable if his name should even take up space on a voting ballot.

Conservatives are always at war with education, healthcare, and social programs. Why are they so disgruntled with such important priorities for people ?


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

sags said:


> Doug Ford's popularity is lower than a snake's belly. He is so unpopular it is questionable if his name should even take up space on a voting ballot.


When your Mom forces you to eat your vegetables, her popularity is lower than a snake's belly, but in the end she's doing what's right and what needs to be done. It ain't a popularity contest.

ltr


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

Now the teachers, unions and advocacy groups are threatening to "shut down the province". What a joke. Too bad we couldn't have a Province wide vote and be done with this.

How about a compromise. Reduce salaries by 5-10-15% (whatever it takes) and add more in class assistants, reduce class sizes, etc. Good luck - they want to work less hard and get paid more. Human nature at it's finest.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Synergy said:


> Now the teachers, unions and advocacy groups are threatening to "shut down the province". What a joke. Too bad we couldn't have a Province wide vote and be done with this.
> 
> How about a compromise. Reduce salaries by 5-10-15% (whatever it takes) and add more in class assistants, reduce class sizes, etc. Good luck - they want to work less hard and get paid more. Human nature at it's finest.


We did have a province wide vote.
We voted in someone to be responsible and get costs under control.
These are just the selfish losers who want more money for themselves.

Don't they see the mess they're leaving, not just for our children, but for themselves?

The single biggest financial mistake I made choosing a career was to not get a government job.
That's a HUGE problem for our economic future.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I read that teachers in Ontario have not received increases to match the cost of living for decades, yet they settled with the Liberal government at the time.

The last time there was a Province wide strike it was during the Mike Harris Conservative government, who had a stated goal of creating a crisis in education.

There appears to be a trend with Conservatives not being willing or able to negotiate contracts in good faith. This particular Conservative government is a bunch of bumblers.

Just like Mike Harris, Premier Doug Ford has avoided the media and the public. If they are proud of the job they are doing they should step up and take full credit.

Last reports were that Ford is totally immersed in solving the license plate problem he created. 

The Conservatives could sure use that $6 billion in carbon taxes right about now. But no........better to blow everything up.

What a bunch of ding dongs.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

sags said:


> There appears to be a trend with Conservatives not being willing or able to negotiate contracts in good faith.


No, again you have it wrong. The Liberals always just give away the farm, so the union simply expects this every contract. The Conservatives offer fairness, and the unions go crazy that their gravy train has stopped.

ltr


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I read that teachers in Ontario have not received increases to match the cost of living for decades, yet they settled with the Liberal government at the time.
> 
> The last time there was a Province wide strike it was during the Mike Harris Conservative government, who had a stated goal of creating a crisis in education.
> 
> ...


Hike taxes, increase spending, and the economy will take care of itself.

We desperately need financial literacy and a basic understanding of economics in this country


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## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

MrMatt said:


> Hike taxes, increase spending, and the economy will take care of itself.
> 
> We desperately need financial literacy and a basic understanding of economics in this country


as well as competent representation.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

And good wages, pensions, and benefits.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> And good wages, pensions, and benefits.


But nobody is building those jobs, shortsighted tax and spend governments are chasing those jobs out of the cities, if not the country.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

All those intelligent people heading to the US will get there just in time to see a democratic socialist elected President.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

sags said:


> All those intelligent people heading to the US will get there just in time to see a democratic socialist elected President.


Democratic socialist - is that what the kids are calling it today? 

I thought it was a 78 year old communist that just had a heart attack - what are they thinking.......

ltr


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