# Would you buy insurance this way, to net savings?



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Just curious if what members on this board of thinking buying insurance with cost savings this way? 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/manulife-turns-to-fitness-rewarding-customers-for-healthy-habits/article24233375/



> Canada’s largest life insurer is looking to wearable fitness trackers, data collection and an enticing rewards program to boost sluggish sales and connect with customers in a radical new way.
> Manulife Financial Corp.’s U.S. business *is offering rate reductions and incentives to customers who demonstrate they’re focused on health – from annual checkups and flu shots to frequent gym visits*. *The insurer’s Indonesian business adopted medical insurance discounts for customers tracking their physical activity levels. And a Canadian launch may not be far behind. * ...


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

Wearable fitness trackers ... woof, woof ... I'd probably snag it on something and hang myself ... short story, for many reasons, nope. Then again, I could put it on the dog ... hmmm, could be fun


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ ditto ... I'm in tears and can't speak ...


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Great idea. Absolutely would if I needed health insurance. 

Would like to see a form of their entire program optionally introduced into our provincial medical plan. People who are proactive with a healthier lifestyle could earn tax credits. It might even motivate a growing number of sedentary and overweight people of all ages to do something positive for themselves and society.


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

Sales gimmick. These are still businesses whose business is to make money for shareholders. I like RBull's idea, it would be interesting to see studies on how one might be able to encourage wellness in a population. Reminds me of Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein's book - 'Nudge'.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

Submitting the yearly checkup results vetted by a physician would suffice ... imagine the scamming that would go on, and oversight required (if Manulife took the collected data seriously, which I tend to doubt) with such a monitoring system ... with data that's likely stored off shore somewhere, by some sub, sub, sub-contractor ... and sold off to interested parties. Just another gimmick leveraging the fitness thing ...


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

I'm much less cynical about all of this. 

Health data is already being collected by the insurance companies and physician checkups and tests are already being submitted. This is not new. The new part is simply an optional digital monitoring and rewarding of those who choose a healthier lifestyle- not simply a gimmick about the "fitness thing". People that choose not to participate because they don't like it or don't live a healthy lifestyle will simply go on as they do now and pay more. There is no information available that suggests this part of the clients data will be released and sold to interested parties any more than other data is. 

Is it designed to generate sales - yes since it is a business. More sales usually means more profits which is what shareholders are concerned with. Will it lower rates for some people who are insured and participate-yes. How much might be the real question that determines participation levels. 

Will it work and be successful-only time will tell.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

^ Just taking a break waiting for the current layer of mortar to dry ... sure dries fast this stuff. Ok, so sign me up ... I'll mail you my monitor so you can put in that 10K/day we'll be claiming ... oops, probably won't work, the GPS will show a discrepancy ... I'll have to get my neighbor to help out with the mileage. Wait a minute, I don't need that extra insurance, I have group ... enjoy the day!!!


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

^LOL. I'm actually headed out for about 12k run now. I don't need the extra insurance either but I expect the insurance company is smart enough to make a little harder than that to cheat. However I expect that even 1k per day would be plenty to earn the max discount based on most peoples activity levels. 

Good luck with the mortar job.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

^ Thanks, it's going well, old brick needing some work. OT: was talking in passing, ok, over a beer, with a lawyer buddy a while back who mentioned an effort somewhere of implants currently being used for location monitoring and what did I think ... I dunno, where's the line. Enough about that, nice day, enjoy the run ...


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

And keep in mind that there is precious little good evidence for improving outcomes by other than the most basic changes. Do you smoke? What is your BMI? Are you married? Do you have children? How many km a year do you drive? Careful not to get hit by a car on your run. At least your not biking!


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

uptoolate said:


> And keep in mind that *there is precious little good evidence for improving outcomes by other than the most basic changes*. Do you smoke? What is your BMI? Are you married? Do you have children? How many km a year do you drive? *Careful not to get hit by a car on your run.* At least your not biking!


 ... and so how do they come up with the 5%-15% discount given the basic good lifestyle behaviours are already built into the mortality rates? 

Would be rather ironic to go running to exercise and end up getting hit by a car - death claim payable only if insured under an accidental death policy here.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

rikk said:


> ^ ... Wait a minute, *I don't need that extra insurance, I have group *... enjoy the day!!!


 ... but you don't have enough! screams your financial advisor ... what happened if you lost your job and you're the sole breadwinner? How will your spouse and dependents be taken care of?


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

RBull said:


> Great idea. Absolutely would if I needed health insurance.
> 
> Would like to see a form of their entire program optionally introduced into our provincial medical plan. People who are proactive with a healthier lifestyle could earn tax credits. It might even *motivate a growing number of sedentary and overweight people of all ages to do something positive for themselves and society.*


I agree! I see nothing wrong in encouraging healthier living and rewarding it, especially at a time when we keep hearing about the dangers of physical inactivity & sitting too much.

What would be the participation level, that's the question, which reminds me of the Body-Break tv commercials.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDkW4kruadg&list=PLHNPsrHtxoqniRNSbg44gEjUGj4-Sn9MK&index=1

Enjoy the 12K run!


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Toronto.gal said:


> I agree! I see nothing wrong in encouraging healthier living and rewarding it, especially at a time when we keep hearing about the dangers of physical inactivity & sitting too much.


That is a con to socialized medicine. I need to subsidize fat people. Oh well I guess it's just another form of state welfare in some ways. I'm OK with it for the most part. Most people who are over weight either have physical or emotional disabilities (it's not LOVE it's just food!) and I try to have empathy for them.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

^ Physical inactivity [what I was mostly referring to] affects a lot of people. I keep setting goals for myself & never quite get there.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> I agree! I see nothing wrong in encouraging healthier living and rewarding it, especially at a time when we keep hearing about the dangers of physical inactivity & sitting too much ...


There is/may be/who knows ... an up to $500 adult fitness tax credit e.g., http://www.adultfitnesstaxcredit.ca/ in the works (that wouldn't be of use to me though, home gym, walking ... I don't run, anywhere, anymore) ...


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Toronto.gal said:


> ^ Physical inactivity [what I was mostly referring to] affects a lot of people. I keep setting goals for myself & never quite get there.


People are over weight because they eat too much. if you are less active you should eat less. Physical activity plays a relatively small role in weight loss. I should know, I'm in a weight loss competition at work. The guy who's winning is in the lead because he had the flu last week and the guy who runs 40km a week is at the *** end.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

rikk said:


> There is/may be/who knows ... an up to $500 adult fitness tax credit e.g., http://www.adultfitnesstaxcredit.ca/ in the works (that wouldn't be of use to me though, home gym, walking ... I don't run, anywhere, anymore) ...


This would cost me more than it would help me. I think it's a good idea though and I would support it.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

There's this older woman here that makes the odd comment to me about how it must be easy for me to maintain a healthy body weight. It's classic self victimization. I run 40K a week and bike 7-10 hours a week as well. And the kicker. I don't eat like a pig. It drives me nuts when people play victim and blame it on their slow metabolism b/c they're getting older or somehiow can't find time for a bit of exercise.. That may be an explanation but it's not an excuse. Now put down the pie.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm not talking about weight-loss, but about exercise [having a 1hr. tennis body-break 2night & walking {not driving} 10 minutes to the tennis centre].

*rikk:* such credits just goes to show the need for increasing physical activity.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Right, perhaps we should tax soft drinks and pie to pay for this program?

Wait, ,his could seriously impact my cherpumple production rate. I no longer support this program.

*Qu'ils mangent de la brioche*


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... and so how do they come up with the 5%-15% discount given the basic good lifestyle behaviours are already built into the mortality rates?
> 
> Would be rather ironic to go running to exercise and end up getting hit by a car - death claim payable only if insured under an accidental death policy here.


You don't think that there is more than a 15% margin on life insurance policies? The margin on permanent life insurance policies is so high as to be almost criminal. And the goal is to get customers... sure I'll give you that discount to get you to sign up - then inertia will both allow me to take the discount away and also prevent you from leaving my company. And if you do leave... what do I care really I got your money. That is part of the business model. If memory serves, the majority of permanent policies never payout. People cancel for various reasons - not having enough money for the premiums and figuring out what an incredibly bad deal permanent life insurance is are two of the biggest reasons. If you could get a significant discount for a good term policy then sure go for it but in this area the market is quite competitive and margins are much tighter, you could probably get the same rate by just going with another company. I just think that most of the differences are already priced in using variables that have been shown to correlate with mortality.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

Deleted ...

My understanding, Goodlife is currently lobbying for the adult fitness tax credit ... now that's logic I understand ... $$$s ... as in ... due to x, y, z, there will be a 2016 fee increase of ... $75 (the maximum deductible from tax payable ... http://www.adultfitnesstaxcredit.ca/ ). There are many, many worthwhile clubs that would benefit and I'm ok with that.

Looking back at some posts, I'm thinking this thread should be removed from "frugality" and put under a new thread ... "first world problems".


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

rikk said:


> Goodlife is currently lobbying for the adult fitness tax credit ... now that's logic I understand ... $$$s ... as in ... due to x, y, z, there will be a 2016 fee increase of ... $75 (the maximum deductible from tax payable ... http://www.adultfitnesstaxcredit.ca/ )


Whether they increase rates or not fitness centers will benefit. I agree with none, we need a new tax to pay for all these crazy incentives! People really don't need to go to a gym. All they need to do is stop eating so much and exercises a little. Go for a good walk everyday, take the stairs, park further away from the store, etc. Toss in a few home based body weight strength exercises and some stretching a few times per week and you have a decent program for the average couch potato. You don't need to run, you don't need fancy equipment, you don't need supplements, powders, potions, etc. Just do it!

Personally I have no problem with insurance companies tracking behaviors, whether it be through a fit bit, telematics, etc. I do however question whether it will help those in poor health or those with bad driving habits improve their behaviors as these types of people will be a lot less likely to embrace the technology.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

^ OT: speaking of telematics, and monitoring, something that might actually make the world a better place ... "Once signed up, young drivers attach a high-tech telematics gizmo to their cars that tracks how aggressively (or to put a more positive frame on it, how sensibly) they drive ... http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ring-device-is-habit-forming/article18804860/ " ... being an old guy, I'm looking forward to automation as in ... to the beer store, make it so!!!


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

none said:


> Right, perhaps we should tax soft drinks and pie to pay for this program?
> 
> Wait, ,his could seriously impact my cherpumple production rate. *I no longer support this program.*
> 
> *Qu'ils mangent de la brioche*


You change your mind very quickly. :biggrin:



none said:


> That is a con to socialized medicine. I need to subsidize fat people. Oh well I guess it's just another form of state welfare in some ways. I'm OK with it for the most part. Most people who are over weight either have physical or emotional disabilities (it's not LOVE it's just food!) and *I try to have empathy for them*.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

Thinking about it, there are some better incentives out there like getting the junk food out of school cafeterias than a tax refund for those with the big bucks able to join "fitness" clubs ... an additional tax on junk food does make sense. ... a fat tax as it were.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

rikk said:


> 1. Deleted ...
> 
> 2. Looking back at some posts, I'm thinking this thread should be removed from "frugality" and put under a new thread ... "first world problems".


*1.* I read your post before you edited it - u were saying that you did not understand my logic on post #22.....

The gov. is promoting physical fitness for adults [and children] because there is a need for it to combat obesity & other, no? It is said that 'sitting is now the new smoking.'

What % of the population are active vs. couch potatoes, for example? [The latter can be skinny, so not just referring to obesity]. 

From the link you provided: 'Based on the CSE [Centre for Spatial Economics] report, the implementation of the *tax credit would also create an economic benefit of $625 million over five years in net healthcare savings versus the tax loss. *If both the federal and provincial governments participate, the health care savings would reach $1.1 billion by 2029.

*With an implemented Adult Fitness Tax Credit, the CSE report estimates the number of physically active adult Canadians would increase by almost one million people.* Research consistently shows that a physically active person is more likely to have better health outcomes than a non-active person. Regular physical activity is effective in the prevention of several chronic diseases, untimely saving health care costs. Additionally, the likelihood that workers would miss work due to illnesses related to physical unfitness would decrease.'

*'Without societal changes, a substantial and steadily rising proportion of adults will succumb to the medical complications of obesity*; indeed, the medical burden of obesity already threatens to overwhelm health services. The spectrum of problems seen in both developing and developed countries is having so negative an impact that obesity should be regarded as today’s principal neglected public health problem.'
http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/lop/researchpublications/prb0511-e.htm

*2.* A very good thread actually...in whatever place.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

rikk said:


> Deleted ...
> 
> Looking back at some posts, I'm thinking this thread should be removed from "frugality" and put under a new thread ... "first world problems".


... ah, it would seems 99% of the threads in this forum are first world problems. 

However, I think if one does want to start with one - it should be allocated to the Hot Zone - flame away! :biggrin:


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> From the link you provided: 'Based on ... .


Really off topic, but having been party to a few objective reports that were passed up the line to those that funded them, and seen how they were spun, I'm leery of anything that begins with wording such as "Based on ...".


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

^ I don't disagree, but when it comes to the issue at hand, we can see it all around us!


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

^ Looking out my window, all I see on the path and parkland behind me are joggers, runners, people walking dogs, elderly people going for walks, families on bikes ... fit people. I should probably take more of an interest in e.g. the impact of unfit people but these days I'm just not that interested in criticizing others' life choices ... enjoy the day!!!


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Toronto.gal said:


> I agree! I see nothing wrong in encouraging healthier living and rewarding it, especially at a time when we keep hearing about the dangers of physical inactivity & sitting too much.
> 
> What would be the participation level, that's the question, which reminds me of the Body-Break tv commercials.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDkW4kruadg&list=PLHNPsrHtxoqniRNSbg44gEjUGj4-Sn9MK&index=1
> ...


Thanks. I was also thinking a couple of days ago how I vividly remember the participaction commercial from decades ago-this one in particular.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMD35tUh-Ek


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

none said:


> There's this older woman here that makes the odd comment to me about how it must be easy for me to maintain a healthy body weight. It's classic self victimization. I run 40K a week and bike 7-10 hours a week as well. And the kicker. I don't eat like a pig. It drives me nuts when people play victim and blame it on their slow metabolism b/c they're getting older or somehiow can't find time for a bit of exercise.. That may be an explanation but it's not an excuse. Now put down the pie.


I can relate. 

This is one of the things I don't like about the equality part of social medicine. Preventable health issues are starting to overwhelm the system and costs are borne by everyone. It also affects productivity in the marketplace and makes the country less competitive. The forecasts are very concerning. 

I would agree with whomever made the statement about the need for another thread.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

rikk said:


> ^ Looking out my window, all I see on the path and parkland behind me are joggers, runners, people walking dogs, elderly people going for walks, families on bikes ... *fit people. *I should probably take more of an interest in e.g. the impact of unfit people but these days I'm just not that interested in criticizing others' life choices ... enjoy the day!!!


Aha, so that's where the active people live, in LR. each: 2nd place I hear is in beautiful B.C.

Maybe now the figure has improved a bit ...'Adults spend about 70 per cent of their waking hours, or 9.5 hours, sedentary..'
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...ns-not-as-active-as-they-think/article562605/

Enjoy the day, too!


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

An update on the state of fattiness across the pond. I wonder how much spotted-dick this has resulted in.

http://metro.co.uk/2015/05/01/nearl...to-see-their-genitals-says-new-study-5176647/


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

Sitting isn't the only problem. There has been no time in human history when it has been easier for the masses to ingest calories! Mainly 'empty' calories mindlessly consumed.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

^ You reminded me of an older article I read.

*'The obesity epidemic arrived with astonishing speed.* After tens of thousands of generations of human evolution, flab has become widespread only in the past 50 years, and waistlines have ballooned exponentially in the last two decades.....In 1980, 46 percent of U.S. adults were overweight; by 2000, the figure was 64.5 percent: nearly a 1 percent annual increase in the ranks of the fat. At this rate, by 2040, 100 percent of American adults will be overweight and "it may happen more quickly...'
http://www.harvardmagazine.com/2004/05/the-way-we-eat-now.html

Scroll forward to 2014 -WHO global estimates:

- In 2014, more than 1.9 billion adults, 18 years and older, were overweight. Of these over 600 million were obese.
- Overall, about 13% of the world’s adult population (11% of men and 15% of women) were obese in 2014.
- In 2014, 39% of adults aged 18 years and over (38% of men and 40% of women) were overweight.
- The *worldwide prevalence of obesity more than doubled between 1980 and 2014.*

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs311/en/


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