# Over 1 Million to fly cars to India



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Man...............do these politicians never consider the "optics" in what they do.........or do they even care anymore? It's like they are rubbing our faces in it.

The government spent over 1 Million to fly Harper's limos to India.

Like.........as if............India doesn't have a fleet of their own limos.

Where did he think he was going................to some Gosh forsaken land without limos?

I really miss a politician like John Crosby on stuff like this. 

Maybe the opposition could borrow Nigel Farage for awhile to speak for them............so they can continue to speak quietly and respectfully............lest they hurt someone's feelings or say something politically incorrect.

This is the kind of stuff that opposition used to pound away at........day after day........putting cracks in the ruling party support. That is what kept ruling government's on their toes. 

Not any more apparently. They believe if they elect a young leader with curly hair and television appeal........that is all they need.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sto...n-india-cost-one-million-dollars.html?cmp=rss


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think it's fine. I think it was more a security matter than just wanting to have their own limos.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

I too think it's fine.

sags, fyi

Chronology of terrorist incidents in India


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

I believe these are specially built vehicles with thick armor plating and windows and puncture proof tires. I'm sure there are other security features that we don't know about on them, (just like with Obama's special vehicles that he has flown ahead before his visits. 

When he was here a few years ago in Ottawa just after being elected, he had these special presidential limos flown in on a US Airforce cargo plane, along with a elite security squad of sharp shooters etc.
I remember them positioning themselves on rooftops around Uplands airport in the special area where heads of state arrive. As well, ALL the manhole covers along the route that Obama was taking to Parliament hill were WELDED SHUT until after his visit.

These days with Al-Queda terrorists having sleeper cells in Canada... (and we know from past years where some of their plots to behead the prime minister and blow up or damage the CN tower were foiled, They were arrested and tried. This is Canada..a peace loving nation with very few incidents of terrorism, compared to India and Pakistan where terrorists are everywhere. 

One of India's prime ministers Indira Ghandi was assassinated by terrorists in 1984. India is becoming a dangerous place, just like Pakistan, so I don't think that 1 million spent on flying over armoured limos to protect our PM is out of line these days. 

There was even a assassination attempt on the Pope a few years ago, and he never invaded ANY country or countered terrorist activities. They had to build a bullet proof Popemobile for him, which they fly around ahead of his papal visits.

it's become a dangerous world out there!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Man...............do these politicians never consider the "optics" in what they do.........or do they even care anymore? It's like they are rubbing our faces in it.


The irony is how much money is actually wasted just for optics!


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Oh please, not again! :rolleyes2:

Do people seriously not follow global news?! Not all countries are like Canada, you know. Security is a very, very critical issue, period, no discussions/savings in that regard.

Fantastic article: *'In what possible way is an armoured SUV and limo not about security? If they’d sent vehicles with hot tubs and wet bars in the back, well, fine. But they sent ones with ballistic armour. That sort of implies the concern might have been things going boom-boom.'*

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ould-prime-minister-mulcair-want-in-his-limo/
-


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> If they’d sent vehicles with hot tubs and wet bars in the back, well, fine.


But this would imply a safer World, no?

I look forward to the day our politicians can drive around foreign countries in SUVs shipped from home that have hot tubs in the back.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Sampson said:


> I look forward to the day our politicians can drive around foreign countries in SUVs shipped from home that have hot tubs in the back.


As they might say in India: "Please, not to be holding your breath, good sir." :wink:


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Sampson said:


> But this would imply a safer World, no?


I hope that you/carverman/andrew/GoldStone & Nemo, enjoyed the sarcasm in that article as much as I did. :highly_amused:

Sorry sags, I know u didn't.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

$1M - in order to ensure the safety of our Prime Minister, his wife, and the rest of the Canadian representatives - is pocket change in the larger context of govt. spending.
A rounding error, at best.

How much money did the outgoing Dalton McGuinty embezzle through the e-Health scandal?
How much money was embezzled via kickbacks during the sponsorship scandal?
The list of govt. wastage is long...

But this is not part of that.
India is a notorious, lawless country, led by a weak and ineffective Prime Minister.
There are all kinds of separatist, terrorist groups running rampant there - from East to West, North to South.

Frankly, I am surprised that Prime Minister Harper even chose to visit there, and secondly he didn't wear a Titanium Iron Man suit 24x7

Lastly, if you think that Canada (which is part of G-8) spending $1M for the security of its leader is outrageous, just look at how much the other G-8 countries spend for the security of their leaders.
Start with the US, followed by Russia, UK, and just keep going down the list.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

As usual Harold, a great post!

You are one of the best writers on this forum, and always backing up your every word!


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

And I think you need to consider that renting a car from Enterprise while there was not required so the real adjusted cost should be like $999,981 or so.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The guy who wrote the commentary conveniently forgot some facts from the original CBC article.

Indian politicians travel in armored vehicles as a matter of course. They have a whole fleet of them.

Security is of paramount concern, given where they live. 

The Australian PM used the Indian armored vehicles during his visit

The PMO says the RCMP makes these decisions. The RCMP says they can't say why they made that decision.

Why can't they say? All they have to do is say it had more armor on it or something.

But they can't say that.........because someone would investigate and find out it isn't true..........so they stick with the BS.

And seriously folks........does anyone really believe our RCMP is a world class security force?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ Harold, the Liberals don't have a monopoly on waste and fraud. Harper wasted a billion dollars on a weekend, hosting the G8/G20, when previous and subsequent host cities spent an order of magnitude less.

I can't believe we are making a big deal out of a fairly legitimate expense such as this. There are much larger scandals, including the G8/G20 porkfest, the catastrophic bungling of the F35 procurement, etc.

People seem to lose all sense of scale. How long did we talk about Bev Oda's $20 orange juice?


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

sags said:


> The guy who wrote the commentary conveniently forgot some facts from the original CBC article.


No, he didn't forget anything as that article was written back in Nov./2012; the one you posted was from yesterday.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Aren't we at the stage, technologically, where all these expensive meetings could be done via video conferencing? Seems ridiculous to be flying all over the globe in this day and age.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

These meetings are largely symbolic. You lose the symbolism when you meet via Skype.

Most of the work is done behind the scenes, months in advance, by nameless, faceless bureaucrats.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

andrewf said:


> the Liberals don't have a monopoly on waste and fraud. Harper wasted a billion dollars on a weekend, hosting the G8/G20, when previous and subsequent host cities spent an order of magnitude less.


I realize the Libs don't have a monopoly on waste and fraud.
My point is that this particular case is neither waste nor fraud.

You are right that Bev Oda's behavior on the London trip was atrocious and inexcusable.

The G8/G20 summit - I am not sure if we should call the whole thing a waste.
Their are expenses that some might call a waste - such as the construction of a new gazebo, the new swimming pool in the resort, etc.
But it is wrong to label the entire $1B as a waste.

Coming back to Harper's India trip, let me cite another example - last month, Russian President Putin visited the same city - the capital of India - New Delhi.
Not only did Putin zip around in a heavily armored car, wedged in between a motorcade comprising of several cars and SUVs, but they insisted that the Indian govt. shut down all streets that he was supposed to drive through.
As a result, any street that his motorcade was going to drive through was cordoned off and shut down to all public traffic for a couple of hrs. prior to his arrival.

I'd say compared to that, Harper's trip (and expenses) was far more benign.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

nathan79 said:


> Aren't we at the stage, technologically, where all these expensive meetings could be done via video conferencing? Seems ridiculous to be flying all over the globe in this day and age.


Discussing billions in potential business deals between countries, are not done via audio/videoconferencing.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> T You lose like symbolism when you meet via Skype.


The face to face meetings are still required, whether it is G8 or other types of trade junkets, like Harper visiting China.
Skype while free, is a poor substitute for actually being there and besides..there is no security on Skype either.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Harold..since we are bashing Bev Oda... Her glass of OJ (reported to be $16) which she claimed she repaid..wasn't only the improper expense she made on
the taxpayer's tab...Her private limosine tab was way out of line, along with her hotel accommodations.



> A $16 orange juice ordered by the minister at the Savoy was also repaid, Broekema said.
> He didn't say whether Oda paid back the expenses for a car and driver she had used that cost up to $1,000 per day. Oda had ordered a luxury car and driver in London to shuttle her the two kilometres between the conference and the Savoy.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/critics-blast-oda-s-swanky-hotel-stay-16-orange-juice-1.799961#ixzz2JUTQBEBk


Maybe we should have sent the armored car for her as well..that way it would have made just as much sense.:rolleyes2:


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

carverman said:


> Harold..since we are bashing Bev Oda... Her glass of OJ (reported to be $16) which she claimed she repaid..wasn't only the improper expense she made on
> the taxpayer's tab...Her private limosine tab was way out of line, along with her hotel accommodations.


I know, therefore I said _Bev Oda's behavior on the London trip_ - I included everything.

I personally think a lot of these overseas trips are pointless and dog-and-pony shows only.
However, shipping Harper's limos for the sake of security is not a waste similar to Bev Oda's.
There is a big difference.

See my example above of Putin's visit to India last month, as an example of what other world leaders do in similar situations.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> These meetings are largely symbolic. You lose like symbolism when you meet via Skype.
> 
> Most of the work is done behind the scenes, months in advance, by nameless, faceless bureaucrats.


Exactly... which makes it all the more pointless. How much do we value symbolism?

On the issue of security, I never suggested they use Skype. Surely they have the technology to develop a more secure communications platform. And since most of these meetings are just symbolic, there probably isn't a great deal of confidential information exchanged at them anyway.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

nathan79 said:


> On the issue of security, I never suggested they use Skype. Surely they have the technology to develop a more secure communications platform. And since most of these meetings are just symbolic, there probably isn't a great deal of confidential information exchanged at them anyway.


Well we can't seem to manaqe to keep security on gov't files of individuals. Recently in Ottawa, two USB data keys with individual user profiles have disappeared without a trace and nobody in the gov't seems to know what happened to them. Maybe the Chinese took them? If we can't even keep track of our own "secure" data, what guarantees will there be there is no security leaks, 
if world leader conferences are done over skylinks to save money?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> The G8/G20 summit - I am not sure if we should call the whole thing a waste.
> Their are expenses that some might call a waste - such as the construction of a new gazebo, the new swimming pool in the resort, etc.
> But it is wrong to label the entire $1B as a waste.


Our entire deployment training budget went unspent that year as we were already training/deploying for G8/20 and Olympics (and normally our training deployments are far more elaborate somewhere in the States). None of that is considered in the security expenses for example as it comes from another budget

Same thing for the PM using the challenger jets. If you own it and have a qualified crew, they have to fly to maintain currency regardless. You wouldn't own a car and then rent one most of the time instead to save on fuel. The media had a heydey when some helos landed in a baseball field to get some fast food on the way to the Olympics. No now they will just pay airport fees and taxi fees and waste time instead.

I've seen lots of money wasted for the sake of not looking like cops at a coffee shop. How horrible people they are to take a break and eat or drink coffee!



sags said:


> Why can't they say? All they have to do is say it had more armor on it or something.
> 
> But they can't say that.........because someone would investigate and find out it isn't true..........so they stick with the BS.


The RCMP probably didn't want to hi-light a weakness in someone else's security measures or something to that effect. That would put them in danger


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

The security landscape has changed with technology, but the question is whether we're more or less secure? In the Cold War days, most espionage was done with moles rather than hacking, etc... but the end result was the same.

I don't see what the difference is between a USB stick and a folder of papers... actually, the USB stick is potentially more secure since the data can be encrypted. The main downside is that it can be copied and distributed with more ease once it is accessed.

Anyway, I guess my argument is a moot point. We're too obsessed with symbolism to give up these million dollar visits.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Since symbolism doesn't matter, we should auction off Parliament Hill, too....


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Depends how much we could get for it and the cost of building a strictly utilitarian replacement... lol.

In all seriousness, I could at least see how Parliament Hill enriches the national identity... a little bit more than a bunch of politicians sitting around a boardroom table... how does that enrich the lives the average Canadian...


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