# $15 Minimum Wage in Alberta



## Erome

NDPs are pushing through a $15 minimum wage.

Is this going to cripple small businesses, or just trigger crazy amounts of inflation...? Bad time to be a business owner?

Thoughts?


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## dogcom

Seattle is the only one so far that I know that has approved a move to a $15 minimum wage.

For small business it would initially mean trying to cut back workers and hire less. Down the road however since every business has to pay it, workers will have more money to spend on small business products. Small business in return may be able to charge more for those products creating the inflation. Then there will be a bump up of all wages to keep their premium over minimum wage, creating more inflation. Of course once everything settles in the inflation rate will drop back down again. I would think other provinces would gain from this because the people of Alberta will be able to spend more there and as long as they don't match Alberta's minimum wage. This could also hurt business as money leaves the province finding cheaper goods.


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## nathan79

From what I've heard barely anyone in Alberta actually makes near minimum wage, so I doubt it will hurt business as much as some people think. Even fast food workers there seem to make quite a bit more than other provinces.


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## LBCfan

Alberta NDP campaigned on this. The legislature is not sitting, so I doubt they are "pushing it through". It may never happen. Unless you own a fast food franchise I doubt it will affect you.


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## GoldStone

This is what $15/hr minimum wage looks like:


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## Guban

I wonder how it would effect businesses in Lloydminster. Part of the city is in Alberta, while part is in Saskatchewan where the minimum wage is $10.20.


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## JordoR

Personally I don't feel minimum wage should be raised. In my opinion, you shouldn't be able to live and support a family on minimum wage - that's not the intent. If you are working at a job and still making minimum wage after several years, I would say it might have something to do with performance.

Anyway, just my thought - I always catch some flack for my stance on minimum wage


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## andrewf

Of the people earning the minimum wage, very few are 'heads of households' or breadwinners. Many are secondary or tertiary earners in middle class households (including teenage children and students). Raising minimum wage as a poverty alleviation tool is of questionable efficacy. There are many people who are 'poor' that earn more than the minimum wage (single mothers for instance) and would not be helped by raising it.


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## Plugging Along

nathan79 said:


> From what I've heard barely anyone in Alberta actually makes near minimum wage, so I doubt it will hurt business as much as some people think. Even fast food workers there seem to make quite a bit more than other provinces.


There may not be that many right at the minimum, but there are much more in the range under $15.

This will impact more people than the NDP think.


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## Fraser19

Guban said:


> I wonder how it would effect businesses in Lloydminster. Part of the city is in Alberta, while part is in Saskatchewan where the minimum wage is $10.20.


As a resident of Lloydminster you bring up an interesting point. It would definitely be a curious situation.


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## fraser

The Premier is not suggesting an immediate increase to $15

It is a three/four year goal with incremental steps. Last numbers I saw were that 1.2 percent of Alberta workers were earning minimum wage. 

But, it will drive up those wages that are above minimum wage.


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## nathan79

Plugging Along said:


> There may not be that many right at the minimum, but there are much more in the range under $15.
> 
> This will impact more people than the NDP think.


True; I read that it's 10% of workers who make under $15/hr. 

But as mentioned this will be a phased-in increase.. not a sudden jump to $15.

BC raised the minimum from 8.50 to 10.25 in three steps between 2010 and 2012. There may have been a small impact, but I can't say I noticed anything.


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## CPA Candidate

Alberta's protest vote is unleashing a massive economic experiment. Higher taxes, higher minimum wages, possibly higher oil royalties.

What I've read about minimum wages in Canada recently is generally those earning the minimum are quite young and still at home. If the goal is to alleviate poverty, it will be alleviating the poverty induced by cell phone bills and movie tickets.

Not to mention, how can it not push wages across the board up? Those earning 50% higher than minimum wage currently will be at the minimum wage in a couple years and certainly if you are supervising those earning a minimum wage, you will demand that your wage be elevated to maintain yourself in the wage hierarchy.

And consider your average fast food restaurant with a dozen or more people running around serving coffee or whatnot, suddenly those employees cost much more and your cost structure is seriously derailed. Prices have to rise or jobs must be cut. As an accountant that pours over payroll reports weekly and under pressure by management to find savings at all times, something has to give, and it's probably hours.

In Manitoba the NDP has been increasing the minimum wage aggressively and child poverty and poverty in general has not improved, but fast food meals have increased in price.


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## nathan79

CPA Candidate said:


> What I've read about minimum wages in Canada recently is generally those earning the minimum are quite young and still at home. If the goal is to alleviate poverty, it will be alleviating the poverty induced by cell phone bills and movie tickets.


While that may be true, there are many adults making just a few dollars over the minimum. I know a couple of people who make $12/hr. And they're not unskilled either -- both used to make about $22/hr before their company downsized and laid them off. Unfortunately, most jobs available right now are low-paid and these people who previously made a decent living are now struggling.



CPA Candidate said:


> Not to mention, how can it not push wages across the board up? Those earning 50% higher than minimum wage currently will be at the minimum wage in a couple years and certainly if you are supervising those earning a minimum wage, you will demand that your wage be elevated to maintain yourself in the wage hierarchy.


By the time the new minimum is fully phased in, those currently making $15/hr would likely be making $16 or $17 anyway. People can of course ask for raises, but that doesn't mean employers are going to give them a raise just to keep a cushion between them and minimum wage. And I really don't see the majority of people who make over $20/hr being too threatened by someone making $15.


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## WHR_SPUR

First i think some clarity around the current minimum wage situation in Alberta is in order.

Currently in Alberta there are 2 minimum wages. There is the standard $10.20/hr, and then there is the $9.20/hr liquor server minimum wage. The reason for this should be quite obvious in that liquor servers are able to bring in a great amount of tips to offset their wage. The other thing is that although the minimum wage is $10.20/hr very few businesses have been paying that wage to adult staff (the individuals that I believe the increase is targeted to help). For reference I recently went to a Wendy's where the starting hourly wage advertised on the now hiring sign was $13/hr for full time (obviously a job for an adult as it would be full time hours, and no this was not in Fort Mac or far up north, it was in Okotoks which is 15 mins outside of Calgary where many people commute from to work in Calgary). I do also believe that the position at Wendys comes with benefits but don't quote me on that. I would also say that the majority of individuals on minimum wage are current high school students/recent high school graduates and temporary foreign workers (yes they are still here and working). Now can someone tell me how gradually increasing these individuals hourly wage by $4.80 over 3 years is going to help the working poor?

As a resident of Alberta, and as an individual who worked minimum wage jobs in my youth including in bars/restaurants, I will wait and see how this turns out but i know my spending as a consumer will change from it.

The main thing that is going to change for me is if this truly is a increase in both minimum wages to $15/hr is i'm going to stop tipping the customary 5-20% on a meal, and $1-$2 for a beer. Don't get me wrong though, if i have above average service i will still tip an appropriate amount, i just won't be tipping for expected service if you're making $15/hr. Having worked in the bars/restaurants as both a doorman and bartender i can tell you the hourly wage wasn't what you worked for. People in these positions work for the tips/tip outs. It's not uncommon for a bartender to leave at the end of the night with anywhere from $300 to over $1,000 in "tax free" tips which works out to a substantial amount more than what i'll leave the office with having made that day and theirs is "tax free"! If I no longer feel that i have to supplement your wage with tips then i won't, plain and simple.

One last thing i would just love to get off my chest in what could be considered a public forum instead of just among family and friends is this.

Just because you live in Alberta where the energy industry pays high salaries to skilled individuals, or individuals that are willing to work long grueling schedules far from home, does not mean that you should also be paid more to work an unskilled, or 9-5 M-F job! Everyone has to work hard for what they have and want. If you want to make that type of money then make the sacrifices that go along with it such as long hours far away from family and friends! If you need to complete more education than do it! But just because there are a lot of individuals in Alberta making high incomes which raises the cost of living does not mean that people unwilling to do that work, or obtain further education to get higher paying jobs, should be given a raise base simply on the fact it costs more than average to live here and not the merit of their work.


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## sags

Wage inflation is something most economists say is badly needed in the economy.

The effect of raising minimum wages generally increases wages for everyone who earns below or just above the minimum wage.

Some wage inflation would be a good thing.


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## Guban

CPA Candidate said:


> In Manitoba the NDP has been increasing the minimum wage aggressively and child poverty and poverty in general has not improved, but fast food meals have increased in price.


Interesting observation. What was the minimum wage before? I notice that it is $10.70/hr now, so it seems to me that couldn't have been raised that much, unless it was really low before. How much has the fast food meals increased? Could it be that the restaurants are just using the increase in minimum wage as an excuse to raise prices on their clients?

If it was $10.20/hr (as it is now in Saskatchewan), and it rose $0.50/hr, this represents a 5% increase in wage cost to the restaurant, assuming everybody is making minimum wage. Have prices increased 5%? Furthermore, wages aren't the only cost that restaurants have, so if wages represent 50% of the operating costs, a 5% wage increase should translate into a 2.5% price increase. On a $8 meal, that means an increase in 20 cents.


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## dogcom

One argument I don't understand is the argument Peter Schiff makes that there shouldn't even be a minimum wage. He claims this is how you get people skill trained for the real world. While I understand this part of the argument it doesn't stop the slavery of some of the work force which many will do if they can get away with it. Some may have no choice but to pay near nothing to compete in some areas.


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## Perchance

sags said:


> Wage inflation is something most economists say is badly needed in the economy.
> 
> The effect of raising minimum wages generally increases wages for everyone who earns below or just above the minimum wage.
> 
> Some wage inflation would be a good thing.


Wage inflation when there is a shortage of labour is one thing, artificially raising wages when there is a surfeit of workers is surely something else again?

Besides, if you increase the payments made to those who basically move hamburgers from one counter to another, isn't it anticipated that those with greater skills will demand even bigger increases?


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## Erome

Are there any small business owners from Alberta on this forum bychance?

I am curious because the province has gone from large TFW labour force (generally considered strong labour force for a great price) to current labour costs, and then in a few years to a $15 one. I am wondering if companies are seeing their labour cost jump from 20% to 25% to 40% of total revenue in the span of a few years...?


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## nathan79

WHR_SPUR said:


> The other thing is that although the minimum wage is $10.20/hr very few businesses have been paying that wage to adult staff (the individuals that I believe the increase is targeted to help). For reference I recently went to a Wendy's where the starting hourly wage advertised on the now hiring sign was $13/hr for full time (obviously a job for an adult as it would be full time hours, and no this was not in Fort Mac or far up north, it was in Okotoks which is 15 mins outside of Calgary where many people commute from to work in Calgary). I do also believe that the position at Wendys comes with benefits but don't quote me on that.


That's a good point, and actually I think those are the people this increase is really going to help -- adults who are stuck in full-time jobs, not making minimum wage but close to it. There are a lot of circumstances where someone might have to take a job making $13 an hour. Not all of them are lazy or unskilled.

One big benefit that I don't see mentioned is that it will allow high school and college students to work fewer hours for the same amount of pay, which is really helpful when you're trying to juggle school, work, studying, and still have some kind of a social life.


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## GoldStone

nathan79 said:


> One big benefit that I don't see mentioned is that it will allow high school and college students to work fewer hours for the same amount of pay, which is really helpful when you're trying to juggle school, work, studying, and still have some kind of a social life.


You assume that those job will be readily available. I am not so sure. 

My teenage daughter works a part-time job that pays $11/hr. She is super-happy to have it. She would be just as happy to work $10/hr. That $11/hr job was not easy to find. Not. Easy. At. All. She spent a couple of months leaving her resumes at various businesses. No luck. In the end, she got the job through a school friend, at the friend's family business.

$15/hr would only make it worse.


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## sags

The labour supply and demand equation is touted by employers and those who support lower wages, but when the supply of labour runs low and wages should rise as a consequence, they want to change the rules and bring in cheap foreign workers.

Alberta workers should be thankful they have the NDP in power now, and will make some changes for the benefit of workers and Albertans.

The Conservative government wants to make it easier for companies to lay off workers, according to Finance Minister Joe Oliver.

His convoluted theory is that layoffs encourage more employment......LOL

No wonder people want a new government.


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## sags

When I go into the retail shops, I see mostly older people trying to make a living on low wages.

The reason youth unemployment is 25% is because adults are taking those jobs now.


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## nathan79

GoldStone said:


> You assume that those job will be readily available. I am not so sure.
> 
> My teenage daughter works a part-time job that pays $11/hr. She is super-happy to have it. She would be just as happy to work $10/hr. That $11/hr job was not easy to find. Not. Easy. At. All. She spent a couple of months leaving her resumes at various businesses. No luck. In the end, she got the job through a school friend, at the friend's family business.
> 
> $15/hr would only make it worse.


I don't know, but if we're bringing in TFW's, that suggests the jobs are available. Maybe it's because Canadians don't want to work at specific types of jobs, but perhaps at $15 they would be more willing and we could cut back on TFW's.


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## Eder

OK I deleted my original post...I will only say that Rachel is introducing a new stealthy tax on the middle class . I guess we deserve what we get.


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## Eder

sags said:


> When I go into the retail shops, I see mostly older people trying to make a living on low wages.
> 
> The reason youth unemployment is 25% is because adults are taking those jobs now.


Actually youth unemployment in Alberta is around 9% down a substantial amount over the 11% 30 year average, but I'm sure a $15 minimum wage will create more jobs for our youth.


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## peterk

sags said:


> The labour supply and demand equation is touted by employers and those who support lower wages, but when the supply of labour runs low and wages should rise as a consequence, they want to change the rules and bring in cheap foreign workers.
> 
> Alberta workers should be thankful they have the NDP in power now, and will make some changes for the benefit of workers and Albertans.
> 
> *The Conservative government wants to make it easier for companies to lay off workers, according to Finance Minister Joe Oliver.
> 
> His convoluted theory is that layoffs encourage more employment......LOL*
> No wonder people want a new government.


Doesn't it?

If a business knows it is difficult to layoff an employee due to regulation they will try really hard to manage with what they've got and resist hiring another person unless they are supremely confident that their workload will remain high.

If it is easy to lay off an employee then the company will much more willingly hire a new person now because there is a need now, knowing that if business slows down in the future they can lay-off if necessary.


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## sags

I don't think raising the minimum wage is intended to create jobs directly. 

Consumer demand is the only force that does that.

Raising wages of those already working creates the consumer demand, that in turn creates the jobs.

People living on minimum wages are spending everything they earn.

It is income redistribution...........from the business owner's pocket to the worker's pocket.

And given the growing wealth and income gaps...........it is long overdue.


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## Edgar

dogcom said:


> This could also hurt business as money leaves the province finding cheaper goods.


Alternatively, large, multi-national businesses will not be able to discriminate against Alberta and will keep prices in line with the rest of the provinces. In turn, this will make Alberta wealthier. I would agree with you if every province raised their minimum wage, but with only one province doing so, and so drasitcally, I honestly have no clue what the impact will be.


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## peterk

sags said:


> I don't think raising the minimum wage is intended to create jobs directly.
> 
> Consumer demand is the only force that does that.
> 
> Raising wages of those already working creates the consumer demand, that in turn creates the jobs.
> 
> People living on minimum wages are spending everything they earn.
> 
> *It is income redistribution...........from the business owner's pocket to the worker's pocket.*
> And given the growing wealth and income gaps...........it is long overdue.


I disagree. it is distribution from high income tax payers to low income workers to business owners. The price inflation of low-end products, services, and housing for the current poor will more than offset the increased cost of wages experienced by the business. Low income workers will be in the exact same situation as they were, bottom of the totem pole and only able to afford all the worst stuff available, just as before.

The real winners are the businesses that provide goods and services to low income people, through inflation.

The low income earner goes nowhere. Exactly the same as before.

The real losers are the high income employees who now owe more tax, and pay more for goods and services. Also the businesses that rely heavily on minimum wage workers but sell their product to upper middle class people. They get increased cost and no increased revenue.


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## OhGreatGuru

Read Nick Hanauer's article "The Capitalist’s Case for a $15 Minimum Wage.”*http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-06-19/the-capitalist-s-case-for-a-15-minimum-wage

Also his related article on income inequity "The Pitchforks are Coming ... For us Plutocrats" http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...orks-are-coming-for-us-plutocrats-108014.html 

This Quote from the latter: _"Wal-Mart is our nation’s largest employer with some 1.4 million employees in the United States and more than $25 billion in pre-tax profit. *So why are Wal-Mart employees the largest group of Medicaid recipients in many states? **Wal-Mart could, say, pay each of its 1 million lowest-paid workers an extra $10,000 per year, raise them all out of poverty and enable them to, of all things, afford to shop at Wal-Mart.* Not only would this also save us all the expense of the food stamps, Medicaid and rent assistance that they currently require, but Wal-Mart would still earn more than $15 billion pre-tax per year. Wal-Mart won’t (and shouldn’t) volunteer to pay its workers more than their competitors. In order for us to have an economy that works for everyone, we should compel all retailers to pay living wages—not just ask politely."_

When people don't make a living wage, they have to rely on public housing, welfare, and other social programs to get by - all paid for by taxpayers. Instead of saying "Thank-you for shopping at Walmart", Walmart staff should be trained to say "Walmart executives thank you for supplementing their employees' meager wages with your tax dollars, so that Walmart can continue to drive its fair-wage competitors out of business with lower prices."


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## RBull

^thanks for posting that. I've read them both some time ago but for me its a breath of fresh air since I agree totally. 

I'm 100% for raising the minimum wage to something much more livable for all, for all the reasons in the article, as well as my personal experience associated with the retail space in the phase down part of my career. When I owned my company I refused to pay wages nearly that low even though I could likely have made a few more dollars myself by being really cheap. 

Companies that need to be told by government what the lowest wage is they can pay is not something to be proud of.


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## OhGreatGuru

To put Alberta's plans in perspective:

The 2014 Minimum wage in Alberta of $10.20; when adjusted to "constant dollars" using the CPI, is the same as it was in 1978 ($1.43 in 1966 dollars). It dropped about 30% from 1978 to 1984, and for the next 20 years it remained within +/- 10% of the $1.00 rate in 1966.


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## fraser

....plus the rate is not going up to $15. tomorrow. It will be phased on over several years.

As an Albertan, living for the past 15 years in what arguably the wealthiest province in Canada, it was embarrassing to think that we had one of the lowest, and at time the lowest, minimum wage in the country.

It is always interesting to note that the people who are most against a minimum wage are usually the individuals whose own income is far, far above minimum by any imaginable standard. 

The world is not going to come to an end in Alberta because we do the right thing and increase the minimum standards.


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## AltaRed

Fully agree. It was embarassing when I lived there to see that disparity. There should be a minimum of 20 work hours a week as well which is only circa $16k/yr. No way to live on that amount either.


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## PrairieGal

A lot of restaurants pay minimum wage, or close to it, but because of the tips the servers are still making good money. With a 50% raise in food costs, restaurants are going to have to raise their prices an equivalent amount. Then the customer, knowing the server is now making a living wage, will likely cut down or eliminate his tip. The server will be no further ahead. Actually they will be behind because all the servers I have ever known (myself included when I was one in my 20's) do not declare all their tips on their taxes. So, if the minimum wage goes to $15, they will be getting taxed on more of their income, which is fair. I pay tax on all my income. 

Anyway, expect restaurant, bar and fast food prices to rise significantly. 

And, for the record, I am totally in favour of raising the minimum wage.


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## dogcom

I like your point fraser, it is very easy to tell others to work hard and earn low pay when you have nothing to worry about when it comes to your pay or your money.


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## AltaRed

I so tend to agree with PG that servers in certain restaurant businesses may be no better off but the increase in minimum wage will help all those that don't really see the tipping trade, e.g. fast food, hotel cleaning staff, retail store staff, etc. Society will be better off.


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## sags

I support Costco over Walmart because they pay their employees a higher wage. I don't mind paying a little more.

A smart employer might post a little sign that says prices will be going up a little and all of the increase will go to the employees.

I think most people would support that.


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## nathan79

It's unfortunate that tipping is so ingrained in our culture. It's better to pay decently in the first place and abolish the practice of "expected" tipping. The original point of a tip was for "exceptional service", not to supplement the employer's payroll.

I've heard that some restaurants are experimenting with paying a living wage and informing diner's that tips are no longer expected.


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## AltaRed

nathan79 said:


> It's unfortunate that tipping is so ingrained in our culture. It's better to pay decently in the first place and abolish the practice of "expected" tipping. The original point of a tip was for "exceptional service", not to supplement the employer's payroll.
> 
> I've heard that some restaurants are experimenting with paying a living wage and informing diner's that tips are no longer expected.


For sure, that is what at least some, if not all, of mainland Europe does. Don't know how widespread it is there though. When I travelled there regularly on business, and service was exceptional, I would leave a little 'personal' extra for the server but did not feel obliged to give 10-15-20 percent. Would sometimes drop a 5 or 10 Euro note especially for him/her.


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## lonewolf

A friend of mine went to a restaurant had to work 12 hours to pay for the meals of 4 people. He had to work 2 hours to pay for the tip he left. The waitress would have spent about 5 minutes serving them, plus she got a wage on top of the tip as well as tips from other tables. The daughter of a friend of mine used to work @ the restaurant & her mother told me the servers @ the restaurant expect a 20% tip & think those that do not leave that much are cheap. The stupidity of being expected to work over an hour for money to leave a tip to a server that has an easy job in an air conditioned restaurant is just wrong.


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## bgc_fan

nathan79 said:


> It's unfortunate that tipping is so ingrained in our culture. It's better to pay decently in the first place and abolish the practice of "expected" tipping. The original point of a tip was for "exceptional service", not to supplement the employer's payroll.
> 
> I've heard that some restaurants are experimenting with paying a living wage and informing diner's that tips are no longer expected.


That happened in a few restaurants in BC I believe. They had a higher wage and higher food prices. There was at least one restaurant that reverted because the servers complained that they made less than before.

A solution that certain jurisdictions implement is to have a separate and lower minimum wage for those in the food/bar industry where tips are expected. The thing is fast food places would kind of fall into the gap as they are a food industry, but they aren't expected to receive tips.


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## peterk

bgc_fan said:


> A solution that certain jurisdictions implement is to have a separate and lower minimum wage for those in the food/bar industry where tips are expected.


That one's the most ridiculous... earns $1/hour less for serving, makes $30+/hour in sympathy tips because "they're underpaid". That seems balanced... [/sarcasm]

Servers and bar tenders definitely won't like this rule.

Even more, I expect service and the restaurant experience will degrade. What's the difference between service in USA/Canada/Europe? Best/Middle/Worst service. This directly correlates with: needs tips to pay rent / wants tips for extra standard of living / doesn't need tips to have an easy life.


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## bgc_fan

peterk said:


> That one's the most ridiculous... earns $1/hour less for serving, makes $30+/hour in sympathy tips because "they're underpaid". That seems balanced... [/sarcasm]
> 
> Servers and bar tenders definitely won't like this rule.
> 
> Even more, I expect service and the restaurant experience will degrade. What's the difference between service in USA/Canada/Europe? Best/Middle/Worst service. This directly correlates with: needs tips to pay rent / wants tips for extra standard of living / doesn't need tips to have an easy life.


You might want to check out Wikipedia on minimum wage in Canada. (Hint: it actually is like that).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_Canada


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## nathan79

I agree the $15 should be for non-tipped workers.

What about keeping the wage for server the same as it is now, but a guarantee that they will make at least $15 when tips are included? The employer would top up their wage if it falls short of the required tips.


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## peterk

bgc_fan said:


> You might want to check out Wikipedia on minimum wage in Canada. (Hint: it actually is like that).
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_Canada


Yes I know, and I'm saying it is ridiculous. $1/hour cut in wage and gets an extra $30/hour in tips? Like I said, seems balanced lol. Servers don't know how good they have it. Jacking up the minimum wage might shatter out delicate tipping culture, to the server's detriment.


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## PrairieGal

nathan79 said:


> I agree the $15 should be for non-tipped workers.
> 
> What about keeping the wage for server the same as it is now, but a guarantee that they will make at least $15 when tips are included? The employer would top up their wage if it falls short of the required tips.


That sounds like a bookkeeping nightmare. Plus, how is the employer going to know how much the server makes in cash tips?


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## Eder

I don't understand how we differentiate between classes of semi skilled workers wages...we expect a manufacturing job in Ontario to pay $30 + benefits for bolting a few parts together but balk at paying a waitress the minimum wage. I think her job requires more mental & physical talent than the aforementioned position.


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## cannew

GoldStone said:


> This is what $15/hr minimum wage looks like:


Love it !!


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## rsyl

PrairieGal said:


> That sounds like a bookkeeping nightmare. Plus, how is the employer going to know how much the server makes in cash tips?


Maybe there needs to be a bigger policy change.

The owner of the restaurant should collect ALL TIPS, then allocate them to the correct servers/staff through their payroll. TAX the TIPS like income and if the total tips plus salary does not equal the minimum wage, the employer tops up the employee wages. If the employer refuses send CRA after them.

If the employee just pockets the cash at the table and doesn't report it to the employer consider it theft and means for dismissal.

It boggles my mind how servers can evade taxes with no repercussions.


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## sags

$10 an hour........$15 an hour......$30 an hour............what does it matter when we compete with places like Mexico where a qualified engineer earns $25,000 a year ?

There was a discussion about it on the Amanda Lang show, and the conclusion is we can't compete and have no idea what we can do about it.

Mexico used to be low paid, low skilled workers but it isn't the reality anymore. They have a highly educated, highly motivated young workforce who earn significantly less.

They are now expanding beyond manual labour types of jobs into the area of high technology jobs.

The auto assembly plants are moving, and the parts supplier network is gearing up to follow them. Research and development will be relocated to Mexico.

It isn't just "nuts and bolts" workers who will watch their jobs disappear.

In the future it is conceivable that advertising and marketing campaigns will be developed out of Mexico instead of Bay Street in Toronto.

The world of work has changed, and Canada has lost it's jobs and doesn't know where to find them.


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## nathan79

PrairieGal said:


> That sounds like a bookkeeping nightmare. Plus, how is the employer going to know how much the server makes in cash tips?


What % of transactions are cash? Probably a small number. When I go to a restaurant with friends, for a table of about six people typically five of them pay by debit and only one by cash.


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## nathan79

Eder said:


> I don't understand how we differentiate between classes of semi skilled workers wages...we expect a manufacturing job in Ontario to pay $30 + benefits for bolting a few parts together but balk at paying a waitress the minimum wage. I think her job requires more mental & physical talent than the aforementioned position.


There really isn't much difference, except for union vs non union. Low-paid manufacturing jobs are a dime a dozen in BC. My first full-time job was sanding furniture for $8 an hour in 1998... no tips though. A server would be making at least $20/hr with their tips...


----------



## bgc_fan

PrairieGal said:


> That sounds like a bookkeeping nightmare. Plus, how is the employer going to know how much the server makes in cash tips?


I'm not sure that's an issue that the employer is supposed to bother with. IIRC servers are supposed to self-report on their taxes how much tips they make. 

There are different ways of dealing with tips, some restaurants pool all the tips and then dole them out equally, including the chefs and busboys.


----------



## RBull

sags said:


> $10 an hour........$15 an hour......$30 an hour............what does it matter when we compete with places like Mexico where a qualified engineer earns $25,000 a year ?
> 
> There was a discussion about it on the Amanda Lang show, and the conclusion is we can't compete and have no idea what we can do about it.
> 
> Mexico used to be low paid, low skilled workers but it isn't the reality anymore. They have a highly educated, highly motivated young workforce who earn significantly less.
> 
> They are now expanding beyond manual labour types of jobs into the area of high technology jobs.
> 
> The auto assembly plants are moving, and the parts supplier network is gearing up to follow them. Research and development will be relocated to Mexico.
> 
> It isn't just "nuts and bolts" workers who will watch their jobs disappear.
> 
> In the future it is conceivable that advertising and marketing campaigns will be developed out of Mexico instead of Bay Street in Toronto.
> 
> The world of work has changed, and Canada has lost it's jobs and doesn't know where to find them.


Interesting perspective. Is it reason for some attention....yes, however somebody found 58000 of those lost jobs last month. Combined with the other 18M employed people it may be just a little off base to make it sound like we have no jobs here.


----------



## LBCfan

Is it possible to argue that a tip is a gift and therefore not subject to income tax? IANAL but have never heard that this was argued in tax court. Has it been?


----------



## PrairieGal

rsyl said:


> Maybe there needs to be a bigger policy change.
> 
> The owner of the restaurant should collect ALL TIPS, then allocate them to the correct servers/staff through their payroll. TAX the TIPS like income and if the total tips plus salary does not equal the minimum wage, the employer tops up the employee wages. If the employer refuses send CRA after them.
> 
> If the employee just pockets the cash at the table and doesn't report it to the employer consider it theft and means for dismissal.
> 
> It boggles my mind how servers can evade taxes with no repercussions.


I agree, it is pretty mind boggling that the CRA is letting all those tax dollars slip between their fingers. Years ago I was the bookkeeper for a small group of restaurants, and the CRA audited the servers tips. They all got assessed and slapped with back taxes, penalties, interest, the whole nine yards. We weren't the only ones. Quite a few restaurants got audited that year. It was supposed to send a message to the restaurant industry. I'm sure the servers that got audited got the message, but not sure it made much of an impression on the industry as a whole. 




> Is it possible to argue that a tip is a gift and therefore not subject to income tax? IANAL but have never heard that this was argued in tax court. Has it been?


I don't think this has been challenged in tax court. Not that I know of. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't fly. We don't usually give gifts to strangers. We tip because it is a culturally accepted practise that we give extra money to people in certain industries to supplement their wages. 

I think the only way to make sure servers are paying tax on all their earnings is to pay a living wage, like they do in Europe and Australia, and abolish tipping. I think we would be amazed at what we would have to pay them to equal what they are making now. $15/hour doesn't even come close. Try doubling or even tripling that. A couple of weeks ago I went to breakfast with three other people. The 15% tip was a little over $10. If the server had three other tables during that hour that we were there, he just made $50 for one hour's work (assuming he is making minimum wage of $10). That's a helluva lot more than I make.


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## AvidSaver

Overall, I'm not sure raising the minimum wage is ever a very effective move. It speaks to reason that employers would just hire less employees, leading to layoffs or just general higher unemployment rates.

I believe average wages are higher in Alberta, so it might not make as much of an impact.


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## OurBigFatWallet

I went to a restaurant last year in a suburb of Detroit and instead of a waitress there was a machine at each table that allowed you to choose each item from the menu and then place your order when it was ready. Similar to an iPad but customized for the restaurant. The meal was brought out by a server who just delivered the food and nothing else (aside from cleaning tables). The place seemed understaffed but it wasn't because the waitresses weren't needed. When the meal was done you also paid using the machine too. My guess is that if minimum wage goes up to $15 these types of machines will replace more and more workers


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## sags

Interesting, but how would the computers handle customized orders.

Some people want only mustard on their burger, others want mustard and ketchup, and still others want everything but onions.

When I think of the possible ingredients in an omelet..........different peppers and onions for example, would there be a check off list for every item on the menu ?

An interesting idea, although someone still has to set up the table, bring the food and then clear the table. 

The only thing the computer saves is taking the order and collecting the money.

How would a computer accept cash ?


----------



## sags

I wonder how successful these automated check outs will end up being.

A family member managed a Walmart that installed the self check out units, and found their theft rose to such high levels that they removed them.

Assuming a scenario for people ordering via a computer, eating and then expected to pay via a computer, I could see "dine and dash" making a comeback.

I remember a pancake house during a hockey tournament for my son. It was jam packed with kids and their parents for breakfast.

There were so many people in there, all getting up and moving around at virtually the same time, the restaurant would have no idea who paid or who didn't.

We had to chase down our waitress to pay her for the 8 meals at our table.

Computers handle nice and orderly well. They aren't as good at handling chaos.

One thing I have learned about life...........is give people an easy path to stealing and many will.


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## hystat

I'm a bit late to this thread, but has there been any discussion about the effect on post secondary enrollment? Would someone be likely to spend years bettering themselves and earning a degree in say, social work, so they can earn the same as they make at Tim Horton's today?

To me, it seems the higher minimum wage will only solidify the growth and power of the fast food and retail sector. They simply adjust the price of the Big Mac, blaming the government, but then save on high employee turnover costs, because they are now guaranteed a stable labour pool. And, they can get higher performance employees. Those that have the brains to go on to post secondary, will now stay and stock shelves and probably supervise the floor effectively.


----------



## OurBigFatWallet

The machines allowed you to customize each item, so for a burger you could add/delete any toppings and add extras as well (for an additional charge). Omelets would be a bit more complicated. And you're right, this only eliminates the person taking the order - you still need someone to show you to your table and clean the table after you leave. The machine makes you choose how you will be paying. When I left I paid using credit card and the machine had a swipe on the side of it so I didn't need staff, if paying by cash you'd choose the cash option and a light at the table would flash alerting staff that they needed to come collect the cash then bring change. 

It's definitely not perfect. I can only imagine what would happen on a busy saturday night if the system went down for some reason. And dine and dash would be way easier with just a machine. If it's easier to steal - it will happen more often


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## nathan79

hystat said:


> I'm a bit late to this thread, but has there been any discussion about the effect on post secondary enrollment? Would someone be likely to spend years bettering themselves and earning a degree in say, social work, so they can earn the same as they make at Tim Horton's today?


People would still want to better themselves and obtain a career they find fulfilling and which contributes to society. Not many people would be satisfied working at Time Hortons for life, making $15/hr part time...


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## amack081

nathan79 said:


> People would still want to better themselves and obtain a career they find fulfilling and which contributes to society. Not many people would be satisfied working at Time Hortons for life, making $15/hr part time...


I concur with this.
Even if they work 40 hr weeks for the year, the income ~31K per year. Moreover, there are more lucrative jobs that don't necessarily require a postsecondary education and its been the case for years. There are a lot of people who forgo post secondary education for a construction job/apprenticeships. While there salary increases with experience and a diploma, the "schooling" portion is less rigorous and less expensive.


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## sags

There was a time when employers would be embarrassed to pay their employees the minimum wage.

Businesses that had tipping always paid less, but it was understood the employees earned part of their salary from the tips.

Which phrase sounds better ?

"I work for one of the richest corporations in the world".....or........ "I work for Walmart."

Sam Walton would be embarrassed at what his company has become.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> I wonder how successful these automated check outs will end up being.
> 
> A family member managed a Walmart that installed the self check out units, and found their theft rose to such high levels that they removed them.
> 
> Assuming a scenario for people ordering via a computer, eating and then expected to pay via a computer, I could see "dine and dash" making a comeback.
> 
> I remember a pancake house during a hockey tournament for my son. It was jam packed with kids and their parents for breakfast.
> 
> There were so many people in there, all getting up and moving around at virtually the same time, the restaurant would have no idea who paid or who didn't.
> 
> We had to chase down our waitress to pay her for the 8 meals at our table.
> 
> Computers handle nice and orderly well. They aren't as good at handling chaos.
> 
> One thing I have learned about life...........is give people an easy path to stealing and many will.


Easily solved: pay upfront (or leave a credit card # when ordering).


----------



## CPA Candidate

One aspect of this story I omitted from my first post was that the cost of employees goes far beyond wages. Employers are required to contribute to EI, CPP and Worker's Compensation plans. These contributions will increase as a result of higher mandatory wages a they are based on employee earnings. Labour is typically the greatest expense for restaurants.

As for MB, the minimum wage in 2005 was $7.25 and it is now $10.70 for an annualized rate of about 4%. This rate is about twice inflation over the same period. A recent study indicated that despite 16 years of NDP rule in MB, poverty and child poverty are unchanged compared to when they took office. Debt is up a tremendous amount though. In 1999 when the NDP took office, provincial debt was 13 billion and now it is 33 billion. MB's debt per capita is the highest in the nation. MB Hydro has been a disaster under their rule (they added $3 billion to the cost of a simple electrical line route to preserve a forest) but that is another discussion altogether. 

MB has a larger population than SK and even when you remove the O&G industry from the calculation, has a lower GDP than SK.

Back on topic, fast food meals a decade ago were $5-6 and now they approach $10. I long ago stopped buying them, I brown bag it and brew my own coffee.

I almost think Alberta's NDP experience will be really good for the province in that sometimes you need to make a major mistake to learn a valuable lesson.


----------



## el oro

andrewf said:


> Easily solved: pay upfront (or leave a credit card # when ordering).


+1. Just like at gas stations.

Grocery stores could have one cashier monitoring 4-8 self checkouts, eliminate some cashiers and hire a security guard or two. Stores save money, shorter lines, faster cashing out. I've seen this implemented and it works perfectly well.

I've also been to a restaurant here and ordered from a tablet device.

We're moving in this direction with or without increased minimum wage but higher wages will certainly speed up the transition.


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## sags

When the gas stations eliminated gas attendants, did the price of gas go down ?

Have the banks lowered service charges since they introduced self service ATMs ?

Are cars cheaper because they use more robots on assembly lines these days ?

Has anything where jobs were eliminated by technology saved the consumers any money ?


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## hystat

I forget what airport we were in recently (Atlanta perhaps) -sat at restaurant that had touch screens for ordering. lol. You could have just licked the screens and had several thousand calories for free. disgusting. We looked, went "oh gross" and left. But the gals serving drinks were in these skin tight black leotard things, so they were busy. It was like a scene from Idiocracy.


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## hystat

GoldStone said:


> This is what $15/hr minimum wage looks like:


unfortunately, it's also what $8 min wage looks like.


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## AvidSaver

sags said:


> When the gas stations eliminated gas attendants, did the price of gas go down ?
> 
> Have the banks lowered service charges since they introduced self service ATMs ?
> 
> Are cars cheaper because they use more robots on assembly lines these days ?
> 
> Has anything where jobs were eliminated by technology saved the consumers any money ?


Definitely some interesting caselets, but it's malarkey to say that technology doesn't lead to cost savings. It's not always about saving money in nominal terms, it's about making higher quality products.


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## bgc_fan

AvidSaver said:


> Definitely some interesting caselets, but it's malarkey to say that technology doesn't lead to cost savings. It's not always about saving money in nominal terms, it's about making higher quality products.


I think his point is that the companies are saving money with technology and automation, but consumers are not getting any of the benefits in cost savings. Similar to the idea that when corporate tax rates are dropped, the end consumer doesn't see any benefit from it, even though the company has more money.

I have nothing against that as a company has to maximize profit, but to imply that the end consumer benefits is wrong.


----------



## sags

Exactly............and I would add that the remaining employees have also not enjoyed any fruits from the increase in productivity, except for CEOs and upper management.

If they had, given the demographics of an aging population and fewer workers to replace them, we might not have a problem with low wages in the future.

But, as a very astute and well educated teacher/principal friend told me some 12 years ago when I questioned her on the makeup of the school curriculum, it was her opinion that the government knew there was going to be a future surge in low wage service jobs and the education system was being designed to provide the workers for those jobs.

That was an odd prediction all those years ago..........but as I look around today, her prediction appears to be coming true.

Other than public sector jobs, mostly on the local government levels.........the only job creation of any size is in the low paid service industries.

Even the once "good" jobs have been watered down. Auto worker jobs aren't what they used to be, with lower wages, less vacation and defined contribution pensions.

I don't know that raising the minimum wage is a good thing, but given the absence of any other "plan", and the unwillingness of corporations to pay more out of their pockets, turning them upside down and shaking the change from their pockets via mandated minimum wages might be all that can be done.


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## hystat

sags said:


> But, as a very astute and well educated teacher/principal friend told me some 12 years ago when I questioned her on the makeup of the school curriculum, it was her opinion that the government knew there was going to be a future surge in low wage service jobs and the education system was being designed to provide the workers for those jobs.
> 
> That was an odd prediction all those years ago..........but as I look around today, her prediction appears to be coming true.
> 
> Other than public sector jobs, mostly on the local government levels.........the only job creation of any size is in the low paid service industries.


but we live in a country with a huge skills gap. There are quite a few skilled jobs for which we have no candidates. Great jobs with no candidates. And all our minimum wage jobs are ones that those computer screens can easily replace. Meanwhile we bring in TFW's to do important semi-skilled work. 

Too bad the public school system couldn't have worked with industry a little closer. The hippie teachers of the 70's saw no value in producing capitalist robots, but then your principal friend came up with a plan decades later to make burger flippers?. Canada blew it.


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## fraser

Companies are not passing on savings from technology and automation?

Have you checked out the price of any electronic gear lately or compared the cost and features to products five years ago?

Only job creation in the public sector???? Not in Western Canada. That is why so many people have moved west.

Auto sector jobs? Wait another ten years and the decline in auto manufacturing jobs in Canada will be even greater than it has been in the past twenty years. Cars will all be coming from Monterey, Mexico. Trucks too. No surprise, our economy has been changing for five years. The pace of that change is increasing. People who fail to adapt to the change or do not seek out the educational/training opportunities required will be left behind. It is a little scary.


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## el oro

I bank at a place with no tellers so I don't pay service charges or fees. Some companies definitely are passing on the savings (or upgrading quality).


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## fraser

Same here.

We also do a fair amount of on line shopping. The savings are passed on to us in the form of lower prices plus we do not have to traipse all over shopping for things.


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## bgc_fan

fraser said:


> Companies are not passing on savings from technology and automation?
> 
> Have you checked out the price of any electronic gear lately or compared the cost and features to products five years ago?


Electronic gear is hardly the best example. When first generation products are developed, they tend to be expensive, that's true. However, it is more due to market forces that push prices down, not the company deciding to cut its margin, i.e. more supply is available, and you tend to have more players in the game. These days laptops are pretty cheap because, a) most people are starting to transition to tablets, b) they've already got laptops that do what they need, so why buy another? As for being better, that's more due to the quick obsolescence of components, i.e. that DRAM manufacturer is no longer producing 1 MB chips, instead they're going with 8 MB because the margins are better. 

A counterpoint would be the pricing of the latest iPhone at launch. The low end will generally be the same price (http://aaplinvestors.net/stats/iphone/pricing/), you can argue that you're getting more bang for the buck, or consider inflation, but when you look at the difference in storage capacity, the fact that Apple is charging another $100 for an extra 8 MB or another 64 MB is a little be high considering the price of the NAND flash storage they use (http://www.insye.com/dp/NANDFlashSpotPrice.aspx). 



fraser said:


> Auto sector jobs? Wait another ten years and the decline in auto manufacturing jobs in Canada will be even greater than it has been in the past twenty years. Cars will all be coming from Monterey, Mexico. Trucks too. No surprise, our economy has been changing for five years. The pace of that change is increasing. People who fail to adapt to the change or do not seek out the educational/training opportunities required will be left behind. It is a little scary.


Now you've picked a fun example which proves my point. With the factories relocating to Mexico due to lower production costs, do you think we'll see a reduction in car prices? I highly doubt it. Even if there is a slight decrease in sticker price, I'm sure the car companies will increase the freight charges; after all, they're shipping them from Mexico now instead of Ontario. Or at least that would be the excuse.

Or how about the fact a car produced in Ontario will cost less if you bought it in the USA than if you bought it in Ontario? The article is a bit dated, but I doubt things have changed much. 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...mericans-for-canadian-made-vehicles-1.1141083


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## fraser

It is not uncommon for manufacturers to price differently from one country to the next, notwithstanding where the product is manufactured. This is exactly why the 'grey' market exists. As the world gets smaller it is becoming more of a problem-especially with product that are physically smaller and can be shipped in quantities. 

Years ago, I purchased a Seiko watch for my spouse from a well known drug store in BC. It was discounted by a significant amount compared to the price in other stores. It did not have a Seiko warranty, the store provided their own. Why? Because the watch was actually purchased somewhere like Hong Kong instead of from Seiko Canada and purchased for a much lower wholesale price. At one time Costco sole some TV's without the manufacturer's warranty...they came with a Costco warranty. After 25 years...that Seiko watch is still keeping perfect time!

At one point in our travels we had to buy a specific drug for my spouse while in Brazil. Not only was it 1/3 of the cost of the product in Canada, it was sold over the counter by the pharmacist without the need for a prescription. . In the hospital where she worked at the time this drug was controlled and counted at the end of each shift.

A few years ago, Toyota dealers were bringing new product into Canada. Toyota Canada apparently stopped it.


----------



## lonewolf

I just read on the financial survival network in the United States the top 4 employment sectors pay 10 dollars an hour or less. 
Increasing minimum wage to get rid of jobs in the top 4 employment sectors is a major brain fart. What right does the government have to not let people work if they are not worth the minimum wage? If someone is not worth minimum wage they can work @ a lower wage & maybe find employment but the government will not let them work. The unintended consequences only makes matters worse when the government tries to control the market.


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## fraser

The Same right that the Government has to legislate safe work environments to ensure that the free market system does not force employees to work in hazardous work environments.

Alberta currently has the lowest minimum wage in Canada. We are overdue for an increase.

We are also the only province in Canada that has no work/safety regulations for farm workers. Unlike other jurisdictions we have not seen fit to extend to these workers the same protection that we afford others. Hopefully this too will change in the fall session.


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## lonewolf

Insurance premiums help to keep the work place safer.


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## sags

Employers like Walmart..........who can't afford to pay their employees decent wages, but can stuff hundreds of billions into offshore bank accounts to avoid taxes ?


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## fraser

And employers who are not too happy because they can no longer dismiss local workers, bring in TFW's, and pay them less than the going rate (all the while threatening them with removal from Canada).


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## bgc_fan

fraser said:


> It is not uncommon for manufacturers to price differently from one country to the next, notwithstanding where the product is manufactured. This is exactly why the 'grey' market exists. As the world gets smaller it is becoming more of a problem-especially with product that are physically smaller and can be shipped in quantities.


No it's not uncommon. However, it speaks to the fact that manufacturers are arbitrarily setting prices to what the local market can bear and not related to the cost of manufacturing. Your example of drugs demonstrates precisely that: cost of living and wages are lower in Brazil, so drug companies have to reduce the prices so that the locals can afford it.

Again to use the electronics example, there can be two identical phones coming from the factory in China, with the one designated for export being marked up 25%+. 
Textbooks are another example with people purchasing textbooks from India at a significant discount than in Canada. 

Or even mundane books with a difference in suggested $CDN and $US which did not reflect the exchange rate where the $CDN was higher, or at par for a significant period of time. The given excuse was that distribution costs made up the difference, and somehow the exchange rate had no effect on profit.


----------



## peterk

Just went to McDonald's in Calgary yesterday for breakfast and they had 2 automatic ordering kiosks in use. Of course I had a coupon so they had to open a till to take my order. There was a well-dressed late 20s white man with combed hair there to welcome people into the restaurant and suggest they try to use the new kiosks... He probably makes more than minimum wage, though.


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## atrp2biz

sags said:


> Employers like Walmart..........who can't afford to pay their employees decent wages, but can stuff hundreds of billions into offshore bank accounts to avoid taxes ?


Why should a US company pay income tax on US income earned in Germany* in addition to taxes already paid there? There's a reason why QSR if based out of Oakville post Burger King/Tim Hortons merger.


*insert random country


----------



## bgc_fan

atrp2biz said:


> Why should a US company pay income tax on US income earned in Germany* in addition to taxes already paid there? There's a reason why QSR if based out of Oakville post Burger King/Tim Hortons merger.
> 
> 
> *insert random country


I think the issue occurs where you have Apple setting up off-shore companies that "own" the IP, so that when you buy something in the US, Apple-offshore is the one that pays the taxes, and they aren't to the US.

I know it's more complicated than that, but the gist of it is that Apple and possibly Walmart have their corporate structure set so that their US earnings don't appear to be coming from the US, so they don't pay US corporate taxes.

The obvious drawback is that money is stuck overseas and you can't bring it back to the US without some sort of taxation.


----------



## Eclectic12

atrp2biz said:


> Why should a US company pay income tax on US income earned in Germany* in addition to taxes already paid there?


From what I gather, the point is the income is earned in the US by a US company. One would expect to pay US income tax on US earned income. 
Having a foreign subsidiary that reports the income instead of the US parent allows the US income tax to be delayed until the foreign subsidiary is brought back into the US. 

The net effect is the foreign to switch from around a 35% to 40% tax rate in the US to the foreign country tax rate of around 8.3% to 12%.

https://www.rt.com/business/162468-top-12-tax-havens/
http://www.uspirg.org/news/usp/study-70-fortune-500-companies-used-tax-havens-2013
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Artic...-Tax-Havens-These-Companies-Would-Owe-US-Much


Would you think it fair if you found out your local Canadian doctor or engineer had setup a Canadian company and Bermuda company so that the money paid to them for services in Canada by Canadian didn't have any income tax but "it's okay ... Bermuda is taxing it".


Cheers


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## GoldStone

peterk said:


> Just went to McDonald's in Calgary yesterday for breakfast and they had 2 automatic ordering kiosks in use. Of course I had a coupon so they had to open a till to take my order. There was a well-dressed late 20s white man with combed hair there to welcome people into the restaurant and suggest they try to use the new kiosks... He probably makes more than minimum wage, though.


As I said in post #5, this is what $15 minimum wage looks like:










This is inevitable in any case, but $15/hour accelerates the trend even more.


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## andrewf

Interestingly, McDonald's change to automated ordering and table service will actually lead to more labour in their stores. I'm not sure about the strategy. It seems to be an attempt to improve service quality to compete better with fast casual restaurants, partly by offering more complex/varied menu. Automated ordering and table service means less queuing at the counter. I suppose if they are smart, frequent fliers can register some kind of loyalty program and save their preferences for coffee, meals etc.



McDonald's Canada Plans To Hire 15,000 As Chain Introduces Self-Serve Kiosks, Table Service

Edmonton first Canadian market to get new McDonald's concept


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## sags

It sounds like instead of standing and waiting to order and collect their food, people will be sitting at a table and waiting.

That sounds like they will need more table space in already crowded restaurants.


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## dotnet_nerd

sags said:


> That sounds like they will need more table space in already crowded restaurants.


As an MCD shareholder that's a problem I like to hear.


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## lonewolf

The economy of the province that the government has raised minimum wage the most will most likely be hit the hardest. The 15 dollar minimum wage is a sign of a bubble economy. When the province is that arrogant & thinks that workers are worth more then the free market for wages. There is going to be a lot of people will be without work.

Many worker that want employers to supply them with jobs will have to take responsibility & find their own jobs & if the worker is not worth 15 dollars an hour that wants to work the province says you don't have the right to work. Minimum wage reminds me of union mentality where workers want to get paid for stat holidays for doing no work.


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## Just a Guy

Bah, they just raised taxes by $2B, borrowed another $6B, will be $50B in debt by 2020...with a population of 3M, they'll OWE about $18,000/person (including kids and the elderly) by then. Heck, they'll need to bump the minimum wage just to pay for their government.


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## lonewolf

Keep raising taxes eventually the productive will leave. The strongest country will be the country with the lowest taxes. Might be heaven on earth everyone is responsible for themselves no taxes to support leaches is the way to go.


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## lonewolf

The timing is off for building new infrastructure the baby boomers just don't need it.


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## AltaRed

Just a Guy said:


> Bah, they just raised taxes by $2B, borrowed another $6B, will be $50B in debt by 2020...with a population of 3M, they'll OWE about $18,000/person (including kids and the elderly) by then. Heck, they'll need to bump the minimum wage just to pay for their government.


Only one quibble. AB has 4.2 million breathing bodies... so that makes it less bad. As I tell friends and family who live in AB, you get what you vote for (the PCs needed to go but WRA would have been better).


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## fraser

It is not $15. today. This is being phased in. 

We are OK with Notley. If you recall, many people thought Ralph Klein, when he was mayor, was nuts to build a new city hall in the midst of a downturn. Turned out he was very smart. Got is built at the right price, at the right time. Created employment in the city and saved us big dollars in construction costs.

The real challenge for the Notley Gov't is ten years of fiscal mis management by the multiple Conservative administrations. At least this is the opinion that the CD Howe folks recently released. I cannot count how many times the Conservatives promised this or that from hospitals to schools to health care initiatives. They delivered on nothing and that is why they got trashed. IMHO, the Notley Government closely resembles the former Lougheed administration...of whom I am a great fan.

We do not normally support an NDP Government but the antics of the past few years drove us to it and so far we are reasonably pleased with the result. But we are realistic, we do not blame Notley for world hunger or for falling oil prices like many died in the wool Conservatives are doing. I think that I just read that even with the deficit, ALberta on has 30 percnet of the per capita provincial debt that Ontario has. Need to put this in perspective.


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## Just a Guy

Being in less debt with unhindered spending...don't worry, you'll soon catch up. Remember, unlike Ontario, you were debt free a few years back.

If someone came on this board and posted spending like Alberta, considering their income (I'm going to borrow now at low interest rates to redo my back lawn, buy a big screen tv, a new car, etc.) they'd be torn to shreds. Even if they "invested" the money, they'd probably take flak.

A general take-away from this board is live within your means...cut back when you have to. 

Yet, with politics, it's let's borrow our way out of debt.

Politicians need to be sent to credit councillors.


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## nobleea

Not spending doesn't make the needs go away. A growing population needs more schools, hospitals, etc. Klein and his ilk just pushed off the inevitable in order to make the finances look better (but in turn made them worse on a longer scale). If you have to spend, why not do it when the economy is down so you get double the benefit? It's like someone who doesn't change the oil in their car or air filters and claims their car costs nothing in maintenance costs. Look at all the money I'm saving! Or not replacing your roof shingles when they're due.

You cannot scale up what happens in the individual family unit to a province of 4 million.

$15/hr min wage isn't going to make a lick of difference here. Plus it's phased in over several years. On the population as a whole it will likely have no net benefit or drawback. Some people will see a large positive improvement, the rest (about 98% of us) will see marginally higher costs in fast food joints and the like, but barely noticeable.


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## Just a Guy

If someone couldn't afford a car on this board, they'd be told to take the bus, not upgrade to a more fuel efficient one. People seem to think they are entitled to modern schools, the best medical facilities, etc. Costs be dambed. 

Raises, purely for the sake of a raise, is a zero sum game at best. If you don't produce more, the cost is just passed on down the line through raised prices, hence the need for another "raise". If, through your work, you save money for a company, or allow them to produce more profits, then a raise is justified. 

If you look at how much teachers and doctors were paid long before, the ratio I'm talking about, plus the increased costs of the tech guys, the infrastructure guys, the contractors, you'll realize why we can't afford this lifestyle anymore...

Everyone wants to be paid top dollar, and feels entitled to have access to the best, yet the question remains...

Where's the money coming from to pay for it all?

As I said, if this were a person coming on the board with a scaled down story (I need my luxury car, my big house, my toys...I deserve a raise!), we'd tear them apart.


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## nathan79

Just a Guy said:


> If, through your work, you save money for a company, or allow them to produce more profits, then a raise is justified.


It would be nice if things worked that way, but the reality is the employer will almost always do whatever is cheapest. When you have a pretty much unlimited number of people willing to work for minimum wage, there's no real incentive to give anyone a raise no matter how good their work is. The vast majority of workers will perform their duties adequately, and while some may go "above and beyond", that can also backfire. Most employers just want their employees to do their job and not make waves. An employee who tries harder than their fellow employees can lead to an atmosphere of resentment and hurt employee relations which can cause the business to actually lose money.

And let's not ignore the obvious: minimum wages much be increased from time to time otherwise there's no real point in having them.


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## sags

Albertans didn't have debt, but they weren't saving during the good times so they had capital to spend in the downturns.

Alberta should have instituted a sales tax a long time ago, to pay their operational expenses instead of raiding the Heritage Fund and spending all the royalties.

Liberals want to raise taxes and keep spending, but the Conservatives are worse........they want to cut taxes and keep spending.


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## Sampson

Just a Guy said:


> As I said, if this were a person coming on the board with a scaled down story (I need my luxury car, my big house, my toys...I deserve a raise!), we'd tear them apart.


First, running a society is not like running a household.
Second, I wouldn't really compare paying teachers with buying anew tv or pick-up truck.

I don't like the budget myself so much, some things like the hiring incentive plan are dumb, but investing in infrastructure, education, and health care when you can borrow money cheap is a good thing in my books. borrowing cheap on the personal or government books is much better than borrowing when expensive, OR cutting essential services.

Where will the money come from? easy, taxes. If one wants to live in a society with the types of services we have, then, we must pay for them. Well, we should have saved more and earned more from royalties, but that's is a different story, and those are mistakes made by previous governments. After all that, I still don't like this particular budget so much.


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## Just a Guy

Either way, there is only one tax payer. If Alberta had a sales tax, people would want a raise because prices went up. We can blame the government all we want but, the truth is, they wouldn't get elected unless they promised to give people the moon with no thought about who's going to pay for it.

Face it, we, as a country, can't afford our wants. We need to cut back to what we can afford.


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## HaroldCrump

sags said:


> Albertans didn't have debt, but they weren't saving during the good times so they had capital to spend in the downturns.
> Alberta should have instituted a sales tax a long time ago, to pay their operational expenses instead of raiding the Heritage Fund and spending all the royalties.


Thing is that "operational expenses" are a catch all phrase to justify any & all kinds of spending.
Lavish public sector employment expenses (100% health care, highest salary-equivalent G/P pensions, bonuses, etc.) are all covered under the black hole of "operational expenses".

*Alberta blew its wealth away on over-paid public sector*

*AUPE & related unions have headstrongly refused to even discuss any sort of compensation freezes*.

Of course, sales taxes can be raised...of course land transfer taxes can be raised...many types of taxes can be raised, many new taxes can be created.

Alberta is doing the former (i.e. raising existing taxes), while Ontario has now moved on to the next level (i.e. creating new taxes).

The difference between the two is purely one of timing and scale...Ontario started on its tax & spend binge about 6 years sooner than Alberta, thus they are further along.
Alberta is now catching up.
This is the real race to the bottom...


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## Sampson

HaroldCrump said:


> Thing is that "operational expenses" are a catch all phrase to justify any & all kinds of spending.
> Lavish public sector employment expenses (100% health care, highest salary-equivalent G/P pensions, bonuses, etc.) are all covered under the black hole of "operational expenses".


Agreed.. but can't personally complain about the AUPE bargaining, it certainly has been very good for workers.

The mentality of Albertans is peculiar though and it seems to stem from oil. Public workers know the salaries of private sector workers and seem to think they also should earn more, and in fact, at least in my field, workers in Alberta earn sometimes 20-30% more than those in BC, Ontario, and Quebec. The problem is that the revenue stream is broken, due to no sales tax, and the increased spending over the past decades. Oil companies can cut jobs, but the public sector is in fact quite heavy with bloated salaries. Very unsustainable. We will see what the present pro-union government can do. From the present budget, it looks like there will be no attempt to fix the spending, and like all other past governments, wait until oil rises again and fills the coffers.


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## HaroldCrump

You are right, Sampson - it is a matter of expectations mismatch.

Unionized govt. sector employees want same or higher compensation as private sector workers, but they also want the govt. sector job security, the gold-plated pensions, the far lower workloads (i.e. average working hours), and many other features that go along with full-time public sector position.

Those oil fields workers in Alberta were living away from family for weeks/months at a time, routinely working 50+ hrs. a week, living in temporary camps, and taking risks with their health and safety.

If the govt. workers were envious of that, well, approx. 35,000 of those same oil field workers are filing for unemployment these days (nearly 1,000 just this morning, incl. the 700 from Cenovus).

But, of course, there is no recession in the govt. sector.

This is a classic case of having one's cake & eating it too.

Welfare Statist point to Norway's $700B sovereign wealth fund and accuse Alberta of squandering its oil wealth away.
Well, Alberta also has $700B - it is sitting inside the pension plans of the govt. workers, unavailable to the rest of Albertans and rest of Canadians.


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## scorpion_ca

Here are the photos of a job killer...Alberta's unemployment rate is almost 8% and at the same time McDonald's is implementing self checkout at their stores. Shame...


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## bgc_fan

scorpion_ca said:


> Here are the photos of a job killer...Alberta's unemployment rate is almost 8% and at the same time McDonald's is implementing self checkout at their stores. Shame...


Honestly, I doubt that really affects employment much. These kiosks replace the order taker at the counter. Generally, I've only seen one or two at any given time (even if there are 4-5 machines). You will still need one employee to announce the order and present the food, so we aren't talking about a large reduction in employees if any.


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## scorpion_ca

Perhaps it will not affect the employment right away but down the road it will definitely affect the employment rate. 

When I went to the McDonald's this afternoon, there was a huge line up and only one cashier was at the till whereas there used to be at least two cashiers.


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## bgc_fan

scorpion_ca said:


> Perhaps it will not affect the employment right away but down the road it will definitely affect the employment rate.
> 
> When I went to the McDonald's this afternoon, there was a huge line up and only one cashier was at the till whereas there used to be at least two cashiers.


Which is pretty much my experience. My point being that the rise in usage of automatic kiosks isn't going to be a main driver in the increase of unemployment as there is not a lot of jobs that are going to be affected in this particular application. Keep in mind we are talking about the decrease of one person even though there are probably 20 persons (just an estimate) working at any given time.

If we ever get to the point where everything is automated, i.e. cooking and serving is done by machines, then there may be an issue.


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## andrewf

I've used the self serve machines at McDonalds. I must say that I prefer it. I can enter my order immediately on arrival without having to wait, since there is always a free kiosk.

My perspective on this is that no one aspires in life to be a McDonalds cashier, so I don't bemoan any loss of jobs there. I posted an article a little while ago about McDonald's change in strategy to add more employees by adding table service (servers bring food to the table).


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## nobleea

scorpion_ca said:


> Perhaps it will not affect the employment right away but down the road it will definitely affect the employment rate.


Is this only being done in Alberta? No. Therefore, it has nothing to do with $15 min wage.


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## OptsyEagle

nobleea said:


> Is this only being done in Alberta? No. Therefore, it has nothing to do with $15 min wage.


It has to do with the fact that the approximate current $10 minimum wage is still too high and therefore the machines are better value for the employer. You can read into that what you think $15 will do to the situation.

I think I recently heard that the Fraser institute did a study to show that 80% of minimum wage earners come from households who earn a lot more then minimum wage. Here they are talking about the slew of teenagers who will simply spend this money on some new designer jeans and the spouses of higher earning workers trying to earn a few extra bucks and perhaps pensioners trying to fill their day with activity.

The point the Fraser institute also made was that most minimum wage jobs are of a temporary nature and go along way to giving valuable experience to those people who fairly quickly (within 2 years on average) move on to higher earning jobs. Now lets raise that wage, take away those jobs and see what happens in 2 years, for those same people.

Also, 2 issues never pointed out is 

1st) what do you do with the people who make JUST A LITTLE more then minimum wage. If min wage is $10 dollars and you have a person making $13 supervising 5 people who make the $10. Do you raise them all to $15? Would you supervise others for no extra income? Do you now force the employer to not only bite into raising the 5 people to the new minimum but also raise the supervisor and a slew of others to $18 or more to deal with it. There is a point where this starts to really kill what use to be a viable business.

2nd) what about high paying jobs in the organizations that have a lot of lower paying minimum wage jobs. For example a factory that has many minimum or close to minimum wage jobs, would almost certainly have a general manager, perhaps a couple of production engineers and maybe even a few design engineers. When that factory gets sent overseas, we don't just lose the low paying BAD jobs, but we lose quite a few GOOD jobs and good jobs that also come from the others that serve that business (accountants, lawyers, bankers, suppliers, etc.).


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## nobleea

OptsyEagle said:


> 2nd) what about high paying jobs in the organizations that have a lot of lower paying minimum wage jobs. For example a factory that has many minimum or close to minimum wage jobs, would almost certainly have a general manager, perhaps a couple of production engineers and maybe even a few design engineers. When that factory gets sent overseas, we don't just lose the low paying BAD jobs, but we lose quite a few GOOD jobs and good jobs that also come from the others that serve that business (accountants, lawyers, bankers, suppliers, etc.).


There are very few manufacturing type processes left around Alberta where the assembly labour cost is a significant portion of the price. Where they make minimum wage or close to it. Maybe in the 30's and 40's. For your typical product manufactured in Canada, the labour cost is likely a lower percentage than many other components.


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## bgc_fan

So much for the idea that McDonald's would be laying off people for the kiosks: McDonald's plans to add 1,900 jobs in Alberta with revamped service model.


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## scorpion_ca

Yes, I am going to trust whatever they'are saying rather than using my common sense.


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## bgc_fan

scorpion_ca said:


> Yes, I am going to trust whatever they'are saying rather than using my common sense.


I'm sure they're making things up just for publicity. If you look a little further, you'll see that they are essentially adding wait staff to the restaurants which probably add more employees. 

The other consideration is that the cashiers taking the orders tend to be the bottlenecks, so assuming the renovations include the kitchen, you can hire more people to prepare more food.

But hey, if it comforts you to keep believing what you believe, have at it.


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## scorpion_ca

Are you being served? Do self-service machines benefit consumers?

http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/episodes/2015-2016/self-serve


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## nobleea

I vastly prefer the self service machines. Way faster, especially in grocery stores. I'd rather have people in the aisles restocking things or helping you find something then at a till.

I look forward to the self serve kiosks at Mcdos.


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## bgc_fan

scorpion_ca said:


> Are you being served? Do self-service machines benefit consumers?
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/episodes/2015-2016/self-serve


You realize that is a completely different application. That comparison would only be valid if you ordered at the kiosk and had to go assemble your meal yourself. As it is, when it comes to McDonald's, you order at the kiosk and wait at the table for the server to bring it to you.

For the record, I agree with nobleea and prefer the self-serve checkout.


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## PrairieGal

The two times I have ordered at the kiosk I still had to wait at the counter to pick up the food. No table service.


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## Just a Guy

Well, this may be worth reviving this thread to discuss...

https://evans.uw.edu/sites/default/files/NBER Working Paper.pdf

According to the study, it looks like the average low income earner is now earning about $125 less every month now that Seattle has a $15/hr minimum wage than before the increase.

I guess the government can force you to pay more, but hasn't found a way for you to give them more hours. Of course, they haven't forced workers to seek alternative employment or earning strategies either so, despite a higher minimum wage, the poor are still poor.


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## ian

We live in Alberta. 

We do not have an issue with the $15. minimum wage. In fact we support it.

What we have noticed over the years it that it is typically folks who make multiples of the minimum wage that have the biggest objection to it. We happen to be in that group yet we very much support it. Yes, we may have to pay a little more for some basic services but so be it. That little bit extra pales in comparision to what the banks are taking from the average person from monthly fees and investment management fees.

Let those who moan and ***** about the increase in the minimum wage try living on it for a little while. I suspect that their attitude may change.


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## OutofBounds

ian said:


> Let those who moan and ***** about the increase in the minimum wage try living on it for a little while. I suspect that their attitude may change.


I have an issue with a minimum $15 per hour minimum wage. Am I going to be getting an arbitrary raise as well? 

Minimum wage is not meant to be a permanent living wage. It's meant to be an entry level wage for kids at their first job, as a supplement to retirees working part time and for college kids working part time to afford beer money. 

In what world is some punk 16 year old kid with zero life skills flipping burgers at a McDonald's worth 45% of what I make as a journeyman welder with 7 years in the trade, including 6 months of trade school (in Alberta) and 9 months of trade school (in BC) as well as holding an Emergency Medical Responder ticket along with other trade and industry related training tickets? 

Can't survive on minimum wage? Get some schooling and skills. EARN that higher wage. Don't demand the government subsidize your lazy butt with tax dollars they've stolen out of my hard earned paycheck.


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## none

OutofBounds said:


> . Don't demand the government subsidize your lazy butt with tax dollars they've stolen out of my hard earned paycheck.


Wut?


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## OutofBounds

none said:


> Wut?


Sorry, that was an slightly unrelated crack at the basic income that some people have also demanded in addition to the increased minimum wage and that Ontario is experimenting with. Probably shouldn't have tossed that in there. Sorry. But still. Work for your money. Don't leech off the government or lobby them to change things because you're too lazy to get a real job or make yourself valuable. I hate leeches. 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...sic-income-and-who-qualifies/article34795127/


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## Just a Guy

ian said:


> We live in Alberta.
> 
> We do not have an issue with the $15. minimum wage. In fact we support it.
> 
> What we have noticed over the years it that it is typically folks who make multiples of the minimum wage that have the biggest objection to it. We happen to be in that group yet we very much support it. Yes, we may have to pay a little more for some basic services but so be it. That little bit extra pales in comparision to what the banks are taking from the average person from monthly fees and investment management fees.
> 
> Let those who moan and ***** about the increase in the minimum wage try living on it for a little while. I suspect that their attitude may change.


Guess you didn't bother to read the link I provided that says people in Seattle, where the minimum wage was also raised to $15/hr are now making less on average. Basically by legislating higher wages, companies have made changes which mean those "in need" are still in need and no better off, while people pay even more for he goods and services...making it more expensive for the poor, who are earning less.


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## none

OutofBounds said:


> I have an issue with a minimum $15 per hour minimum wage. Am I going to be getting an arbitrary raise as well?
> 
> Minimum wage is not meant to be a permanent living wage. It's meant to be an entry level wage for kids at their first job, as a supplement to retirees working part time and for college kids working part time to afford beer money.
> 
> In what world is some punk 16 year old kid with zero life skills flipping burgers at a McDonald's worth 45% of what I make as a journeyman welder with 7 years in the trade, including 6 months of trade school (in Alberta) and 9 months of trade school (in BC) as well as holding an Emergency Medical Responder ticket along with other trade and industry related training tickets?
> 
> Can't survive on minimum wage? Get some schooling and skills. EARN that higher wage. Don't demand the government subsidize your lazy butt with tax dollars they've stolen out of my hard earned paycheck.


This post is kind of funny. Education does not correlate completely with wage. I have a PhD and my job is highly skilled - yet you probably get paid more than me. You lucked out .. why shouldn't a burger flipper?


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## 5Lgreenback

Just a Guy said:


> Guess you didn't bother to read the link I provided that says people in Seattle, where the minimum wage was also raised to $15/hr are now making less on average. Basically by legislating higher wages, companies have made changes which mean those "in need" are still in need and no better off, while people pay even more for he goods and services...making it more expensive for the poor, who are earning less.


Feelings over facts.

Virtue signalling over effective policy.


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## 5Lgreenback

none said:


> This post is kind of funny. Education does not correlate completely with wage. I have a PhD and my job is highly skilled - yet you probably get paid more than me. You lucked out .. why shouldn't a burger flipper?


Some of them do luck out. 

Of course not all wages correlate with education, but isn't this where life choices and the path one chooses to pursue come into play? Why can't everyone be lucky? Why don't we set minimum wage at $80,000 annually?


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## lonewolf :)

I wasnt that long ago they had wage & price controls. The unintended consequences huge benefits were offered to attract workers. Employers cant afford now to pay the benefits i.e., pensions

Ontario has gone crazy with bringing in 10 days of being able to take off for personal reasons with 2 having to be payed for as well as bringing in extra weeks of holidays. When the government tries to fix a problem they create another problem which is usually bigger then the first problem. Market forces are best for setting wages & prices not government.


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## sags

Companies don't pay employees enough.

Employees have no discretionary income.

Employees stop spending as consumers.

Companies have no customers and go out of business.

Austerity always fails because it shrinks the economy.


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## Just a Guy

Again, try reading the article...

Companies are forced to pay employees more.

Companies cut back on hours to maintain costs.

Companies raise prices to cover higher expenses.

Employees earn less money overall.

Employees must pay more for same products and services.

Employees wind up in a worse state.


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## CalgaryPotato

OutofBounds said:


> I have an issue with a minimum $15 per hour minimum wage. Am I going to be getting an arbitrary raise as well?
> 
> Minimum wage is not meant to be a permanent living wage. It's meant to be an entry level wage for kids at their first job, as a supplement to retirees working part time and for college kids working part time to afford beer money.
> 
> In what world is some punk 16 year old kid with zero life skills flipping burgers at a McDonald's worth 45% of what I make as a journeyman welder with 7 years in the trade, including 6 months of trade school (in Alberta) and 9 months of trade school (in BC) as well as holding an Emergency Medical Responder ticket along with other trade and industry related training tickets?
> 
> Can't survive on minimum wage? Get some schooling and skills. EARN that higher wage. Don't demand the government subsidize your lazy butt with tax dollars they've stolen out of my hard earned paycheck.


I don't agree with the $15 minimum wage, but a couple of points.

16 year old's don't flip burgers anymore, go into a McDonald's. Most of the employees in there are middle aged. 

Not everyone has the capacity to get schooling for even a trade job. Also places like McDonald's can offer flexibility that being a welder for example may not. For a single parent that can be important.

You call people lazy, but hey, if people are working 40 hours a week, they are trying to do what they can already.


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## OhGreatGuru

Further to Calgary Potato, look up the average wages of Walmart employees. They aren't 16-yr olds either. https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/Walmart-Salaries-E715.htm

Wal-Mart is the USA's largest employer with some 1.4 million employees in the United States and more than $25 billion in pre-tax profit in 2014. They built their empire by driving out of business local companies that cared about their employees.


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## OutofBounds

Just a Guy said:


> Guess you didn't bother to read the link I provided that says people in Seattle, where the minimum wage was also raised to $15/hr are now making less on average. Basically by legislating higher wages, companies have made changes which mean those "in need" are still in need and no better off, while people pay even more for he goods and services...making it more expensive for the poor, who are earning less.


I agree 100% with the article. Raising the minimum wage will just cause bigger problems. If I owned a company and had two employees at $10 per hour and suddenly had to start paying them $15 per hour, I'd likely lay one off or cut the hours of the more lackluster of the two. A business runs on it's bottom line. It's a business, not a charity. 

My issue with it is what makes a person with zero skills worth $15 per hour? My first job (other than a paper route and helping on grandpa's farm) was in 2006 and I was working in a hunting and fishing store. I started at $9 per hour. In 2 years, I was asst. manager and running the fishing section. I was responsible for dealing with product reps, ordering product, maintaining stock, maintaining some bookkeeping and dealing with customers. That's on top of the technical skills of fixing reels and equipment and helping out with gun smithing in the hunting section. For all that I was bumped up to $11 per hour. I eventually left that and entered construction where I developed trade skills and made $15 per hour. 

What makes a person incapable of doing anything more than flipping burgers in a fast joint worth the same as a kid who can help build a house? 




5Lgreenback said:


> Some of them do luck out.
> 
> Of course not all wages correlate with education, but isn't this where life choices and the path one chooses to pursue come into play? Why can't everyone be lucky? Why don't we set minimum wage at $80,000 annually?


Agreed. At what point do we draw the line? Why not make minimum wage $30 per hour? People need to take personal responsibility for their lives. Everyone has a limit of potential. It's up to each person to find that and get to it.



CalgaryPotato said:


> I don't agree with the $15 minimum wage, but a couple of points.
> 
> 16 year old's don't flip burgers anymore, go into a McDonald's. Most of the employees in there are middle aged.
> 
> Not everyone has the capacity to get schooling for even a trade job. Also places like McDonald's can offer flexibility that being a welder for example may not. For a single parent that can be important.
> 
> You call people lazy, but hey, if people are working 40 hours a week, they are trying to do what they can already.


I'll concede that point to you on the condition that we agree most of the middle aged folks there are immigrants, usually of Philipino descent. At least in my town. They likely have multiple working family members under the same roof contributing to the bills, and therefore don't require the higher wage the average middle class Canadian needs for the lifestyle they want (expect?). 

I'd certainly rather have people working 40 hours per week than sitting on welfare. But again, where do we draw the line when it comes to those incapable of becoming even the most basic of tradespeople? I can point just about anyone to multiple labourer jobs where all you do is lift heavy things, watch people work and raise an alarm if one of them goes down, and push a broom all while making $18+ per hour. You don't need to be super smart or technically capable to do better than minimum wage. So where's the line? If you can figure out burger flipping in a fast paced McDonald's environment for $10 - $12 per hour, why can't you figure out pushing a broom and maybe running a grinder for $18+? We have 2 single mom's working in our shop, 8 hours a day so it's perfectly possible, though not always easy to find a place for them too although I can understand the difficulty in it. 

Some here say I lucked out. I don't think so unless you mean I lucked out by being physically and mentally capable to work hard, have a thirst for learning and expand my education. I hate my job. I don't find it stimulating in the slightest. Is it possible that I make more than some with a PHd? Hell ya, I know a few who make much less than me because they made the life choice to become educated in a field that interested them, hopefully realizing the earning potential or lack there-of. I made the life choice to get a trade so I could always make money and then stick with it once I realized I hated it because it will give me the financial ability and life experience to re-train for the career(s) that do interest me. 

It all comes down to life choices. I don't there's really a clear line or a black/white answer to it. But I really think people should be encouraged to gain as much education and technical training as they possibly can to reach whatever their full potential is rather than just upping a minimum pay rate which as the OP article proves, actually hurts them financially and also doesn't give them motivation to better themselves.


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## sags

Who actually earns the money for McDonalds ? 

I would say it is the person who is flipping the burgers....not some useless paper pusher in a corporate office somewhere.

The useless paper pusher doesn't do a darn thing for me when I walk up and order a burger.

Economies don't place high values on real work anymore.


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## sags

The article on Seattle clearly states raising the minimum wage had NO impact on the restaurant industry overall.


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## nathan79

I make less than $20/hr, but personally I don't care if someone flipping burgers makes $15/hr. Chances are, they probably get at least 50% fewer hours than I do, and probably little or no overtime, no benefits, etc. I also have more freedom at my job that I would have in that type of environment.


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## Just a Guy

Personally, I'd prefer not to work at all. Funny thing is, I figured out a way to do that. Now I work because I want to.

Not sure why people only focus on a paycheque, there are so many other ways to make money out there if you want. 

Of course I agree with outofbounds that people are unwilling to change their lifestyle either. Everyone feels entitled to own a home to themselves, have kids, have affairs, get divorced, retire and travel, have vacations to exotic locations, etc...after all we deserve these things just because we were born. The rich took opportunity right out of our hands. 

When everyone is broke, who will we take the money from? We've already spent the next generation's money.


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## james4beach

A couple people reported some posts that seemed to be going in another direction so I moved those to Hot Button

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/117361-Off-topic-from-15-Minimum-Wage-in-Alberta


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## Eclectic12

CalgaryPotato said:


> ... 16 year old's don't flip burgers anymore, go into a McDonald's. Most of the employees in there are middle aged.


Maybe this is regional?

When I've been in the McD's, it is usually a 50/50 split. When it is late at night, it seems more like a 20% middle aged and 80% teens. Not a complete, scientific review though.




CalgaryPotato said:


> ... Also places like McDonald's can offer flexibility that being a welder for example may not. For a single parent that can be important.


True ... I've also worked for some companies that had no understanding of what a single parent needs/wants so they blocked the switch from full time to part time when needs changed. All that meant is a good employee was lost to another company.


Cheers


*PS*

Come to think of it, early morning is more like 90% middle aged and 20% teens.


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## Just a Guy

I don't really ever go into one, but I do know guys who own several franchises. Their biggest complaint is not being able to find Canadian staff who are willing to show up regularly and on time. They also seem to want to work on their schedule, not that of the business. Thus, they import workers, who are usually wonderful workers.

I've got several tenants who are immigrants, great tenants. They do tend to live a more communal lifestyle, several families or generations in the same place, they usually only have minimum wage jobs, but nearly all of them work. They always pay their bills on time, regularly send home money to their relatives back home and even travel there every year or two. 

When I hear my kid's friends talking, most seem to think working in fast food is beneath them. They often compulsion about having to work after school or weekends since it conflicts with their social life and sports. The only reason they work seems to be the money, any effort is minimal required just to collect the funds. 

They all expect to be offered high paying jobs with good benefits regardless of any skill, knowledge or abilities. 

Personally, I think it's a cultural issue.


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## 5Lgreenback

sags said:


> The article on Seattle clearly states raising the minimum wage had NO impact on the restaurant industry overall.


You're cherry picking the restaurant industry? Seems kind of dishonest. 

It showed a net loss of income and hours worked for those at the bottom wages, and suggested that those making slightly higher wages actually made slightly more money (likely due to increased hours/ workload). Even for those who made slightly more, it wasn't enough to offset the losses of those on the bottom and causes a net loss to the economy overall. Showing that this policy is hurting the very people it claims to be helping. 

It's worth noting that the fist increase to $11 appeared to have very little substantial effect, but the increase from $11-13 most certainly did show a negative result.


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## sags

Work as many crappy paying jobs as you can manage and live with a bunch of strangers...............sounds like a good plan.

Besides supplying educated cheap labor for these multi-billion dollar corporations, and buying their crappy products.........is there anything else we can do for them ? Oh yea.....lower their corporate taxes because they are supplying these crappy jobs.


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## Just a Guy

When I was in school, I worked several jobs, but I also had something called a work ethic. It taught me that, unless I really liked these low end jobs, which I didn't, I'd better do something to change my job options going further. 

I also had roommates (not a bunch of strangers, but something called friends). The immigrants stay with something called extended family, which could contain strange people, but not strangers. 

As for crappy products, why would people want them over quality ones? Oh yeah, they make stuff people want. If there was no demand, there'd be no profits. 

Besides, if we got rid of these corporations, who would you go after to justify your plans to steal money from in order to pay for the deadbeats of society? You know the ones who don't actually work at all, don't create jobs, products or services, don't actually even contribute to society at all (so not the people who are incapable of working, just the UBI/welfare ones who choose not to).


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## sags

The reality of today's job market renders past comparisons irrelevant. 

Many people are working 2 or 3 jobs trying to piece together a basic living wage.

The lowest possible wages and least amount of hours may be good for profits, but it certainly is of little benefit to society.

I would suggest that if the corporates utilizing such practices were to vacant the premises a better business would replace them.

Costco for example, pays decent wages and benefits while comparable corporates can't seem to manage it. 

As a society we get what we deserve and will accept. We should inform business that if they want access to our markets and use of our resources and infrastructure, they have some responsibility to support our society in a fair manner. 

They have no God given right to exploit our society for their own profit. 

If they find those conditions unacceptable, they can move on to somewhere else.


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## Just a Guy

A lot of companies do avoid Canada. In fact there was a big outcry when skippy peanut butter left because they didn't want to bother with our labelling laws for such a small market. 

I believe alberta saw a significant pull out of foreign investment when they changed their royalty rates. Now alberta is in a decline economically. 

Of course Canadians want their international companies AND all their profits. Guess what, despite our resource riches, we need the companies more than they need us.


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