# Electrical Inspection certificate when buying/selling home.



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Friend of ours just sold her home. She said that part of the offer to purchase required her to provide electrical inspection certificates for renovations done in past. This was in Ontario.

As I understand it, most electrical modifications require a permit and a subsequent inspection by ESA (in Ontario) even if work is done by licensed electricians.

Is proof of electrical inspection something that is becoming more common? House inspections usually are done, but home inspectors are not qualified to do electrical inspections.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

I haven't heard of this becoming common, but there are a lot of do it yourself home owners, as well as home renovators who do not get permits. Some work can be pretty shoddy. Bad electrical can be danagerous. 
So not a bad idea. Although in most provinces there is a sticker that the electrical inspector puts on your panel that is dated and signed for the initial and final inspection for any permitted work. This should be easy to spot.
When I renovated my basement and did my own wiring, the inspector forgot to sign the sticker for the final inspection. I did not notice until much later and I threw out the paper work so I would have to get a copy from the city if anyone asked.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

agent99 said:


> Friend of ours just sold her home. She said that part of the offer to purchase required her to provide electrical inspection certificates for renovations done in past. This was in Ontario.
> 
> As I understand it, most electrical modifications require a permit and a subsequent inspection by ESA (in Ontario) even if work is done by licensed electricians.
> 
> *Is proof of electrical inspection something that is becoming more common?* House inspections usually are done, b*ut home inspectors are not qualified to do electrical inspections*.


 That is correct in Ontario. Any electrical work (upgrades or new) even if done by a qualified electrician with electrical license, has to charge the ESA inspection fee on his final bill and notify ESA for a special inspection.

ESA may do a cursory inspection and send the homeowner a letter that the work was inspected and satifactory. This letter is important because most (fire) insurance companies will want to see it , especially if you disclose recent electrical work was done. 

I had some upgrades done to my basement electrical which involved a new set of breakers from the original electrical panel to a subpanel in the workshop/laundry room\, in 2015 due to an overheated connection in a junction box with aluminum wiring connections that went to a duplex receptacle installed a few years ago (no inspection at the time) and this duplex receptacle served a electrical space heater (1500watts max) at my entrance foyer. The heater drew too many amps and overloaded the alumunum "hodge-podge: wire connections inside a exposed
ceiling octogon box. 

After new work was performed by the electrician with a new subpanel to serve electrical outlets for power tools etc, it had to be inspected
as it was mixture of copper and aluminum electrical wiring. 
That required a special inspection by ESA and I had to send a copy of the ESA letter to my new fire insurance insurer as I still have the 
original aluminium wiring and had to disclose that on the new policy application as well as tick off the box showing that my electrical had been recently upgraded.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

My opinion: All she needs to provide is the contract of the electrical work done. If it was done by a licensed electrician, the contract sort of represents a guarantee that the work was done correctly and to code. Any issues that arise will fall back to the electrician who performed the work. I don't see why you would need a subsequent inspection. I'd rather have the guarantee from the source, than someone else telling me if its ok or not.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

The Rules have changed.



> Don’t let your home improvement dream become a nightmare. Follow the law and do it right.
> 1. FOLLOW THE ONTARIO ELECTRICAL SAFETY CODE
> 2. *TAKE OUT A PERMIT *
> 3. *GET IT INSPECTED *
> 4.HIRE ONLY LICENSED ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS


The last thing you need when buying a house is a possible electrical fire because the electrical work was not inspected and you have to report a fire
claim to your insurance. Better to have proof of at least of the last inspection for the last electrical upgrade that was done. 
If some kind of fire occurs related to electrical after possession, and you don't have an ESA permit/inspection report for the last upgrade,
you can have some issues with your claim. I had to fax a copy to my fire insurer after the upgrade was done and inspected by ESA.




> Once the inspection is complete, whoever took out the permit receives an ESA certificate of inspection. If your contractor took out the permit, request a copy of the certificate for your records. You can also call 1-877-ESA-SAFE (372-7233) for a copy.


https://www.esasafe.com/consumers/p...-to-know?gclid=CPDUsNOg7M8CFRAtaQod3qcGVg#lec


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## Koogie (Dec 15, 2014)

How can that be enforceable ? I own a 50 year old home. There have been multiple renovations done going back 40 years. If I sell the house there is no way I can certify the work down in the 1980s, for instance. And electricians and inspectors can't open every wall or ceiling to inspect the previous work.
Seems unlikely and unwieldy to me.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Koogie said:


> How can that be enforceable ? I own a 50 year old home. There have been multiple renovations done going back 40 years. If I sell the house there is no way I can certify the work down in the 1980s, for instance. And electricians and inspectors can't open every wall or ceiling to inspect the previous work.
> Seems unlikely and unwieldy to me.


I think the issue is mainly referring to recent renovations/upgrades to the electrical systems.


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## Koogie (Dec 15, 2014)

Yeah, you are probably correct. But that opens up a whole other slew of issues. 

What qualifies as recent ?

Of what use is certifying only recent upgrades that might account for less than 10% of the homes electrical services ? I would personally be more afraid of the stuff that was poorly done in the past. Asking for certificates for recent work may do little for you as the home buyer in insuring the soundness of the house electrical system as a whole.


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## 1980z28 (Mar 4, 2010)

agent99 said:


> Friend of ours just sold her home. She said that part of the offer to purchase required her to provide electrical inspection certificates for renovations done in past. This was in Ontario.
> 
> As I understand it, most electrical modifications require a permit and a subsequent inspection by ESA (in Ontario) even if work is done by licensed electricians.
> 
> Is proof of electrical inspection something that is becoming more common? House inspections usually are done, but home inspectors are not qualified to do electrical inspections.


With a 
high demand for a place to live and not much inventory
IMHO it will not be an issue


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Koogie said:


> How can that be enforceable ? I own a 50 year old home. There have been multiple renovations done going back 40 years. If I sell the house there is no way I can certify the work down in the 1980s, for instance. And electricians and inspectors can't open every wall or ceiling to inspect the previous work.
> Seems unlikely and unwieldy to me.


I suspect that many (perhaps most?) homeowners are not aware of the Ontario regulations. If, for example, outlet colour is to be changed or a gfci installed, apparently we should hire a licensed electrician. They don't need a permit for that type of replacement work, but if we do it ourselves, we are supposed to get a permit and inspection. 

We are in a similar situation with an older home that has had numerous upgrades both by previous owner and ourselves. Must have been 4 or 5 different electrical sub-contractors hired by the main renovation contractor. We never knew who the sub-contractors were and we never ever were given an inspection certificate, nor were stickers put on panels. Most of work predates ESA records except for last one.

Reading the ESA site, (it is hard to find because they focus on changes and renovations), they do have something called a General Electrical Inspection that they will do. This would probably be the way to go for insurance or sales inspection: https://www.esasafe.com/assets/files/esasafe/pdf/General_Inspection_Q_and_A.pdf

For homeowner peace of mind, I suppose hiring a licensed inspector to do an inspection would be OK and may also satisfy insurers.

When buying home insurance, they do ask about fireplaces, smoke alarms, etc, but electrical, I don't think so (except for amperage of service panel)


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

agent99 said:


> I suspect that many (perhaps most?) homeowners are not aware of the Ontario regulations. If, for example, outlet colour is to be changed or a gfci installed, apparently we should hire a licensed electrician. They don't need a permit for that type of replacement work, but if we do it ourselves, we are supposed to get a permit and inspection.


Changing a standard duplex receptacle to a GFI. Most homeowners may do that without an electrician, if they understand the electrical code.
Most electricians will come an install a replacement duplex receptacle or substitute a GFI for one in the bathroom if the house is older and doesn't
have one. As long as it just a straight replacement and no new wires are run, probably it is sufficient for the electrician to do it,
But if any of the original wires are being replaced (knob + tube) or copper for aluminum..and it has to go to the electrical panel, a licenced electrician
should be hired to do the work.



> We are in a similar situation with an older home that has had numerous upgrades both by previous owner and ourselves. Must have been 4 or 5 different electrical sub-contractors hired by the main renovation contractor. We never knew who the sub-contractors were and we never ever were given an inspection certificate, nor were stickers put on panels. Most of work predates ESA records except for last one.


One reason to protect yourself in case of fire where the fire Marshall determines it started in some electrical outlet. ESA is not going to inspect every single wire or duplex or ceiling receptacle..they are going to look at two or three in various places in the house, check the wiring to see if it meets the current code and inspect the electrical panel, (like in my case), to make sure that the panel meets current standards and is a breaker type rather than the older fuse panels. 
My understanding with current regulations is that you cannot put a house up for sale these days with a fuse panel, until it is upgraded
and meets current standards. 

I remember one serious scenario in a older house in Bobcaygeon ON, where I visited a friends family back a few years ago. 
Some plugs in the rec room didn't work properly.
On my closer examination of the electrical panel..somebody (not the present owners), installed an industrial type FUSE PANEL that was not approved (maybe it was a surplus type). It had exposed aluminium and no covers over these exposed bus bars and in a closet.

Over years of use, the 120v bus bars in the panel were arcing at the centre part of where the "screw in" fuse goes onto the bus bar and
corroded causing intermittent electrical operation. Scary scenario and a problematic one.
More than likely, no electrical inspection was done and the place was sold to the next owners. 

The electrical panel should have been condemned by ESA and a tag attached to force the present owners to hire an electrician so at least that part of the house wiring complied with the current electrical code in Ontario.
This was back in 2002 or 2003 and the house was sold then rented out by the new owners...scary!



> Reading the ESA site, (it is hard to find because they focus on changes and renovations), they do have something called a General Electrical Inspection that they will do. This would probably be the way to go for insurance or sales inspection:


It probably is worth the $120 or so to request a ESA inspection. 
In my area, most of the homes (including mine) were built in the 70s when Ontario still allowed new construction with aluminium wiring..which oxidises at the stripped end connections around duplex receptacles and can overheat the receptacle if a high current load, like a space heater is plugged in and running for a long time on those cold winter nights.

This is what happened in my case. I was lucky that the aluminium wire just fried inside the metal box..it could have started a fire, but it didn't. I was lucky this time and only smelled a bit of smoke and the electrical circuit that the heater was plugged into went dead.

I called a certified electrical contractor next day to temporarily do a repair for $100 and then schedule a renovation of the plugs and
move the 220v A/C unit over to the new subpanel, later on when he got approval from ESA with the request for a permit. 
Since the electrical panel had to be modified for a subpanel and new breakers installed in the original panel as well as a feeder cable, it was a $1500+ job and had to be inspected. I didn't want my fire insurance policy overage to be denied by this modification, if there was ever a fire.



> For homeowner peace of mind, I suppose hiring a licensed inspector to do an inspection would be OK and may also satisfy insurers.


If the home inspector has sufficient electrical knowledge to spot any potential non standard (wiring doesn't meet current codes) then that would probably be sufficient, I suppose. 



> When buying home insurance, they do ask about fireplaces, smoke alarms, etc, but electrical, I don't think so (except for amperage of service panel)


It really depends on the underwriter..when you apply for new insurance. Some insurance underwriters may ask for the type of wiring (mix of copper vs aluminium) and whether the fuse panel is breaker or the old fuse panel. Since you have to apply for new insurance
and in some cases sign the application, an inspection is always a good idea for peace of mind. 

In my area, most of the homes (including mine) cannot be resold these days until the approved "pigtail"method is done for all plugs in the house that have aluminum wiring connected to duplex plugs and includes the switches as well.

A pigtail is a short piece of copper wire that connects to the switch or receptacle screw and the other end to the original aluminium wire with an approved twist connector approved for copper to aluminium connections.
This requires an electrical inspection after it is done. A ESA certificate/letter indicating that the home wiring meets their approval.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

carverman said:


> Changing a standard duplex receptacle to a GFI. Most homeowners may do that without an electrician, if they understand the electrical code.


True that they may do it, but in fact they have to get a permit and inspection. Owners can only change surface mounted lights and switches. But not outlets of GFIs. A Licensed electrician can without a permit.



> My understanding with current regulations is that you cannot put a house up for sale these days with a fuse panel, until it is upgraded
> and meets current standards.


 No requirement that I have found and in fact no requirement for electrical inspection unless buyer wants to have it done. Insurance companies apparently sometimes require fuse panels to be switched to breakers on older 50+ yr old houses.



> It probably is worth the $120 or so to request a ESA inspection.
> 
> This is what happened in my case. I was lucky that the aluminium wire just fried inside the metal box..it could have started a fire, but it didn't. I was lucky this time and only smelled a bit of smoke and the electrical circuit that the heater was plugged into went dead.


We had the plastic screw nuts on a wall mounted in-line 240V baseboard thermostat melt once. The connections obviously got very hot. We now have central heating!


I agree that an ESA inspection seems like a good idea. Having a licenced electrical contractor look at it first might be another route if you suspect there may be deficiencies (which they can fix).


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

agent99 said:


> True that they may do it, but in fact they have to get a permit and inspection. Owners can only change surface mounted lights and switches. But not outlets of GFIs. A Licensed electrician can without a permit.


No argument there.
Modern electrical receptacles are polarised with the large blade being connected to N (Neutral) and the smaller blade connected to L (line).
IF a homeowner decides to replace a normal receptacle with a GFI receptacle, this polarisation is very important for the GFI circuit to detect any leakage in the load appliance plugged in that could cause a shock hazard. 

Therefore, one has to understand which terminal is which, and test out the circuit under load, as there is a *line side* and a *load side * to a GFI . The installer has to have some knowledge of which is which, using a circuit tester. 
Most GFI receptacles today have two little pushbuttons in the centre..TEST and RESET.



> No requirement that I have found and in fact no requirement for electrical inspection unless buyer wants to have it done. Insurance companies apparently sometimes require fuse panels to be switched to breakers on older 50+ yr old houses.


Most 50 year or older homes were built with 60 amp fuse panel service which would take care of the stove and a few plug circuits.
Modern living requires more electricity (dryers etc) and for most homeowners, 60 amp existing service is probably not enough these days.



> 5 Electrical system Outdated electrical systems with knob-and-tube or aluminum wiring and 50-amp service have a higher risk of overloading and catching fire. If your home was not built in the last 20 to 30 years, you may need to upgrade to safer copper wiring and 100-amp service before you can get insurance at all.


When I changed over to a new insurance provider (to save on premuims), I was sent some online forms to fill out and send back to the agent to get approved for a NEW home insurance policy,
https://ama.ab.ca/2015/05/14/10-factors-affect-home-insurance-rate/

Article from a US newspaper on fuse panels:
http://www.startribune.com/buying-a-house-with-a-fuse-panel-here-s-what-you-should-know/131777603/



> I agree that an ESA inspection seems like a good idea. Having a licenced electrical contractor look at it first might be another route if you suspect there may be deficiencies (which they can fix).


A proper electrical inspection may be required before the home is put up for sale. Most real estate agents suggest this. It makes for faster negotiation and less hassle selling and some guarantee ( I would suppose), that the new owners won't try to sue you after the home is sold claiming the wiring was defective.

The ESA certificate could be your ace in the hole, if it ever came to that. I have one, because I have aluminium wiring in parts of the house.
my electrician told me that is nothing wrong with aluminium wiring, but because of a few outlet fires (overloaded/overheated outlets) and the fact that Ontario does not allow new construction with aluminium for a few years now, it has gotten a bad rap. 

Some prospective buyers will stay away from putting in an offer if the seller discloses aluminum wiring without proof it has been inspected properly.

Jes saying.....


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

carverman said:


> No argument there.
> Modern electrical receptacles are polarised with the large blade being connected to N (Neutral) and the smaller blade connected to L (line).
> IF a homeowner decides to replace a normal receptacle with a GFI receptacle, this polarisation is very important for the GFI circuit to detect any leakage in the load appliance plugged in that could cause a shock hazard.


Luckily GFCI receptacles are clearly marked as to where white neutral should go and where hot line should go. In addition the screw clamp for white is silver and the hot screw gold. The load terminal are covered over with a sticker. Only to be connected if the receptacle feeds other receptacles or loads.

One thing to be very careful of and why you should use an electrician when changing kitchen outlets to gfcis or even new regular receptacles. Current code says that the outlets on each side of the sink should be GFCIs. But old code said they should be split receptacles which are grandfathered. This really makes it difficult to do the upgrade to gfcis. What split means, is that 240v comes into the receptacle through a 3 wire cable Red&Black hots plus white neutral. The two outlets are separated electrically by a clipped integral jumper between the two outlets on a standard receptacle. Install a standard receptacle and you blow the breaker or fuse. No way to install gfci. Code does have a way, but it means adding two GFCIs for each split receptacle.

Regarding fuse panels - we have one, but it is a 200A panel. Renos added two breaker subpanels. All done by licensed contractors, so hopefully done correctly. Insurance never asked us much about our home. Seems they have some kind of database they can draw information from. 

Not intending to sell any time soon, but may get ESA or Licensed Electrician to do a safety check just for peace of mind. At present I am working on panel markings so we know more accurately which breaker/fuse feeds what.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

agent99 said:


> One thing to be very careful of and why you should use an electrician when changing kitchen outlets to gfcis or even new regular receptacles. Current code says that the outlets on each side of the sink should be GFCIs. But old code said they should be split receptacles which are grandfathered. This really makes it difficult to do the upgrade to gfcis. What split means, is that 240v comes into the receptacle through a 3 wire cable Red&Black hots plus white neutral.
> The two outlets are separated electrically by a clipped integral jumper between the two outlets on a standard receptacle. Install a standard receptacle and you blow the breaker or fuse. No way to install gfci. Code does have a way,* but it means adding two GFCIs for each split receptacle.*



Correct. because of the line/load configuration, GFCI does not lend itself to supplying TWO independent 15 amp circuits per duplex receptacle as seen in most older kitchens. The GFI connection can be "line" or "daisy chain" load terminals. 15 amps max per GFCI. 
You would have to open the backsplash wall, make a new rectangle hole, then add one of those plastic boxes that
have a metal expanding clamp on the back of it, to hold the new plastic box in, for the second 15 amp GFCI circuit. 

This leads to another issue that the original wires are too short to go over to the new box, 
so 3 jumpers inside the first box would have to be used to bring power, neutral and ground over to the new GFCI box next to the original.

GFCI are easier to wire up in new construction than modifying existing kitchen plugs. That is something that one should call a qualified
electrician to perform this type of work. 

GFCI installation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwzgitedljA

more GFCI for kitchen plugs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y05V3tf_Zs

I have split kitchen receptacles. I don't think there is room in my kitchen for doubled up GFCIs side by side. That would mean a double size metal box and then having to redo the counter top back splash ceramic. 
However, this is one area that I don't believe will be a problem for resale as this kind of original wiring is grandfathered, although a faulty
kitchen appliance (if it has a metal shell) could give you a shock, but it seems that modern 2 wire appliances are made of mostly plastic
to avoid that scenario. Can you even still buy all metal appliances that are not at least 3 wire (U-ground)?

I remember the old two wire plug metal kettles many years ago, but I don't think they sell that kind anymore. These would not pass
CSA standards today. 

My bathrooms have been upgraded to GFCI, as well as some of the outdoor receptacles.

Leaving only the original one in front is still a dual circuit splt receptacle. One is permanent wired (15amp), the other is on a inside
switch for controlling outdoor lights (such as Christmas lights). * I may need to upgrade this next year to a GFCI *and split that into
two GFCI, or leave it as just one on the switch. 
That box is inside the brick wall, which would need to be chiselled out large enough to add two GFCI. 



> Not intending to sell any time soon, but may get ESA or Licensed Electrician to do a safety check just for peace of mind. At present I am working on panel markings so we know more accurately which breaker/fuse feeds what.


I also remarked mine, because some of the original panel markings didn't include what all was on some of the circuits.

If there was a short, then the breaker would trip obviously, but if I had to flip the power off on some circuit for a reason, such as changing a worn out receptacle or ceiling light fixture, I wouldn't have known which one, as it was marked originally.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

carverman said:


> Correct. because of the line/load configuration, GFCI does not lend itself to supplying TWO independent 15 amp circuits per duplex receptacle as seen in most older kitchens. The GFI connection can be "line" or "daisy chain" load terminals.


I "think: the code requires three split receptacles minimum in a kitchen. In our case we have four. Thinking one option would be to put gfcis on the two receptacles adjacent to sink and wire them off one of the double pole 15A breakers currently feeding them. So red/white to one and black/white to other and just cap the spare hot wire in each cable. We would end up with two of existing split receptacles plus two GFCIs off one double breaker. Seems better than leaving the 240V split receptacles near the sink. Would have to pass this by inspector I guess! Same as this really except wiring between gfcis runs back to panel: https://www.esasafe.com/assets/files/esasafe/pdf/Flash_Notices/14-02-FL.pdf

Just finished checking all our circuits. Learned a lot! We now know which fuse or breaker every user is attached to. 

Only problem I found, was that one outdoor outlet (that we often use) is dead. All circuits are live and working, so must assume wiring to outlet has failed. It should be a gfci by current standards, but will have to turn off main power at panel to investigate because we don't know which circuit feeds it.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

agent99 said:


> I "think: the code requires three split receptacles minimum in a kitchen. In our case we have four. Thinking one option would be to put gfcis on the two receptacles adjacent to sink and wire them off one of the double pole 15A breakers currently feeding them. So red/white to one and black/white to other and just cap the spare hot wire in each cable.


If you are like me, you pretty much need at least four 15amp outlets all the time for all the kitchen appliances in use.
I have 4 duplex receptacles in the kitchen, but two are just a regular duplex receptacles. One for the fridge and the other on a wall without
countertop. 

I have a galley style kitchen with one split plug (15a + 15a) on one side of the counter top, and one split receptacle on the wall behind and close to the sink. It doesn't really bother me that these are not GFCI right now, in fact it's been like this for the 20yrs that I have owned the place.

On the duplex receptacle closest to the sink, I have my microwave and toaster oven plugged in permanently.

The other split duplex has a couple of small current appliances I use every day, coffee mill, food blender, can opener and occasional other small appliance.
Right now, I have one of these 6 outlet adapters that allow up to 6 small appliances to be plugged in (where only two could be plugged in with the original split duplex).

If I decided to go to GFCI, it would make more sense (and a lot more economical) not to have to open up the wall for another electrical box plus the additional wiring, but find a suitable short cord power bar with 6 outlets, affix that to the wall and then plug that into a single GFCI, and cap the second hot wire inside the original box.

So in essence, I could have 7 possible outlets with this arrangement. I believe you can only have up to 6 outlets on a 15amp breaker
as long as the load plugged in at any given time does not exceed 1800watts (18amps). 

With the the power bar serving as a plug in, it should, but there is always a danger of plugging in too many appliances on the power bar, so a surface mount duplex receptacle plugged into the GFCI would serve up to 3 appliances.
I will have to ask the electrician that rewired some of my basement to see if that would pass inspection.




> Only problem I found, was that one outdoor outlet (that we often use) is dead. All circuits are live and working, so must assume wiring to outlet has failed. It should be a gfci by current standards, but will have to turn off main power at panel to investigate because we don't know which circuit feeds it.


When I first bought my place, I also found out one of the outside plugins on the was "dead'. The other part of the duplex was live. This puzzled me for
a while until I discovered that the half that was dead was on a wall switch inside the garage. I turned the switch on and that circuit came to life.
I marked the wall switch indicating what it was for and also inside the weather cover on the outside receptacle.."switched" on the one that is switched. 
No more confusion after that. yours could be the same?


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

As I understand i, the old code required at least 3 split receptacles in a kitchen. In other words 6 outlets coming from 6 fuses or three double pole breakers. And now they want the outlets adjacent to the sink to be GFCIs which as discussed cannot be splits. Once you start on this it can open a can of worms. Doubt Code would count those extra outlets on a power bar. Definitely talk to your electrician!

My outside receptacle is completely dead. Don't know which fuse/breaker it was connected to so need to investigate for loose wiring (with power off!)


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

agent99 said:


> As I understand i, the old code required at least 3 split receptacles in a kitchen. In other words 6 outlets coming from 6 fuses or three double pole breakers. *And now they want the outlets adjacent to the sink to be GFCIs which as discussed cannot be splits. *


I'm going to leave it as originally wired in 1971.

That is now grandfathered. Adding a gfci and marretting the other live wire and leaving it inside the box is probably no better than
original wiring, as it only provides ONE maximum 15 amp circuit instead of two 15 amp circuits per duplex, as it is now.

I'm sure that lots of the houses in my neighbourhood (built in the early 70s) don't have GFCI in the kitchen to meet current code standard.

BTW..I did some investigating today and I do have 3 split duplex receptacles in my U shaped galley kitchen, so I guess it was wired to code at the time.

The third split receptacle, on closer examination, is fed from another set of breakers, which also may be connected to another set of plugs in the same area.

On the third one, the little snap off link bar was removed between the two outlets. Unfortunately this receptacle is not that convenient, unless you have a electric clock plugged into it on the same wall, or a shelf on that wall with some electric doodad to take advantage of the split plug. 
Right now I only use it for the vacumn cleaner..but maybe that's all it was for originally...spare outlets.

The fridge receptacle is on a circuit that feeds other plugs and lights and is not split. A bit of a hodgepodge. 



> My outside receptacle is completely dead. Don't know which fuse/breaker it was connected to so need to investigate for loose wiring (with power off!)


1. Bad receptacle? Did you try an electrical tester or AC voltmeter on the live side? 
2. Look for a octagon box, or some other box, from where the wire from the outside plug runs to and investigate that.

It may be a case of a marrette not tight enough (I've seen that), and a loose wire as you think, inside the box. Or even the wire
broken right off at the twisted marrette. 

I would wear rubber gloves to pull out the receptacle first to examine the wires to it. Use a circuit tester or a voltmeter to check the
black line wire at the screw terminal. 

Hopefully you have all copper and not a mix of copper and aluminum as in
my case.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

carverman said:


> 1. Bad receptacle? Did you try an electrical tester or AC voltmeter on the live side?
> 2. Look for a octagon box, or some other box, from where the wire from the outside plug runs to and investigate that.
> 
> It may be a case of a marrette not tight enough (I've seen that), and a loose wire as you think, inside the box. Or even the wire
> broken right off at the twisted marrette.


Seeing I don't know which circuit it is on, I will first turn power off before accessing the receptacle to see what might be wrong. It is mounted up in the eaves flush with the aluminum soffit which has plywood soffit behind it. I might go in attic and see if I can find where it is fed from, but we have several feet of fibreglass and blown in cellulose insulation up there covering everything


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

agent99 said:


> Seeing I don't know which circuit it is on, I will first turn power off before accessing the receptacle to see what might be wrong. It is mounted up in the eaves flush with the aluminum soffit which has plywood soffit behind it. I might go in attic and see if I can find where it is fed from, but we have several feet of fibreglass and blown in cellulose insulation up there covering everything


The type of receptacle you are describing is normally used for Christmas lighting and is controlled by a switch which may be in your garage or entry way. These started being installed on homes being built in the late 80's at least in my neck of the woods and have become quite common. They are also used for heating wires to reduce ice built up on roofs in certain areas of the country.


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## Marty Gordon (Nov 5, 2016)

Koogie said:


> How can that be enforceable ? I own a 50 year old home. There have been multiple renovations done going back 40 years. If I sell the house there is no way I can certify the work down in the 1980s, for instance. And electricians and inspectors can't open every wall or ceiling to inspect the previous work.
> Seems unlikely and unwieldy to me.


In Ontario there is now a certificate called "ElecCheck" which can be obtained for about $150. It's something the ESA provides for people who plan to sell their house but aren't sure if the electrical is safe or up to date.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Marty Gordon said:


> In Ontario there is now a certificate called "ElecCheck" which can be obtained for about $150. It's something the ESA provides for people who plan to sell their house but aren't sure if the electrical is safe or up to date.


This must take the place of a General Inspection. I could not find the fee, but didn't look too hard! This would be a good thing to have done before buying a home as well as for our own homes just for peace of mind. It will probably become more commonplace as home inspections have. And few home inspectors are qualified to do a proper electrical inspection.

The ESA and it's fees and rules are somewhat counterproductive. The objective should be to ensure that the electrical systems in our homes are safe. Many home owners are quite capable of doing minor electrical work. But we are told that if we want to do this ourselves, we must apply for a permit. Then have the work inspected when complete. Minimum charge is $74. So instead of something costing us say, $26.00, it will now cost us $100.00. Or we could hire an electrician to do the work. Same cost or more. So what do you think many home owners do? In fact many don't know these rules exist.

However, it seems we can do some work ourselves without a permit or inspection (but not much). I have not quite digested this!

https://www.esasafe.com/assets/files/esasafe/pdf/Bulletins/2-3-16.pdf

Replacement of luminaires Subrule (b) Subrule (b)See Note 5
Replacement of General use switch (incl. dimmer, motion sensor or a timer switch) Subrule (b) See Note 5

I don't know what subrule (b) say exactly, but you can find it here by scrolling down. https://www.esasafe.com/assets/files/esasafe/pdf/Ontario-Amendments-to-CEC.pdf

Note 5 says:



> Note 5. Refer to Rule 2-005(b)! The equipment being replaced must be installed in the same location, interchangeable with one being replaced and installed in a branch circuit not exceeding 15 A and 130 V. This exemption is limited Ontario Electrical Safety Code – Bulletins ©Electrical Safety Authority Page 3 of 6
> for single dwelling unit owners. For home owners replacing a luminaire or switch, the work does not include recessed lighting, aluminum or ungrounded wiring such as knob and tube, or work within Section 68. High-rise condominiums are not to be considered as a single dwelling unit therefore will require an application for inspection to be filed.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

agent99 said:


> This must take the place of a General Inspection. *I could not find the fee*, but didn't look too hard! This would be a good thing to have done before buying a home as well as for our own homes just for peace of mind. It will probably become more commonplace as home inspections have. And few home inspectors are qualified to do a proper electrical inspection.


The last time I paid ESA MYSELF for a home inspection was after I pigtailed all the aluminum wiring in the wall outlets and switches, It was $115 plus *GST*, ($121.90) back in 2007. 

The ESA guy came, took the cover off a wall outlet in the kitchen and one downstairs in the family room,then looked at the breaker panel where all the aluminium wiring ties in. 
It took him about 30 Minutes. Got a letter in the mail a couple weeks later (General Inspection Report) that the wiring all passed inspection ; 
"This is to confirm that <my name and address>; "made a general inspection of the above mentioned
premises. At time of inspection, there were no visible shock or fire hazards and installation is therefore considered acceptable".

I had to pay their invoice for the inspection. Any additional wiring using copper wiring was NOT checked.
*In 2007, the minimum fee was $69 + GST.* 

In 2015, After my ceiling box connection meltdown (due to aluminum and copper wiring tied together on original ceiling light where a wall plug was added and a 1500 watt space heater) was plugged in during the cold winter months,
I contracted a qualified licensed electrician to change the power distribution to the workshop plugs downstairs in the laundry room. 

That involved a new set of 40amp (220v) breakers in the original electrical panel going to a NEW breaker subpanel in the laundry/furnace/workshop room to redistribute the additional plugs added. He had to apply for an ESA permit first,which he then quoted me for the job. 

In his quote he charged me $1178 for the new subpanel/40amp aluminum feeder cable, additional breakers inside the new subpanel and *$293.37 for the ESA permit/inspection. * 
Not sure what the breakdown between the permit and the inspection was, or if it was all as one charge + HST. 

On his quote, the permit +materials and labour was $1476.37, then I was charged HST again on that amount ($191.93) for final bill of $1676.37.

The final invoice was $1476.37 materials/labour and ESA permit as per original quot + $200 for some additional plug wiring connections + HST $217.93 for a total charge of $1894.30.

*So it appears that, depending on the work being done , ESA now charge higher fees. 

*


> The ESA and it's fees and rules are somewhat counterproductive. The objective should be to ensure that the electrical systems in our homes are safe. Many home owners are quite capable of doing minor electrical work. But we are told that if we want to do this ourselves, we must apply for a permit. Then have the work inspected when complete. *Minimum charge is $74*. So instead of something costing us say, $26.00, it will now cost us $100.00. Or we could hire an electrician to do the work. Same cost *or more*. So what do you think many home owners do? In fact many don't know these rules exist.
> 
> However, it seems we can do some work ourselves without a permit or inspection (but not much). I have not quite digested this!


The rules have changed obviously. Years ago, a homeowner could do minor electrical work on HIS own home without permits and inspection fees, but fire insurance companies have become a lot more stickier when it comes to DIY wiring. 

Is it worth taking a chance to DIY without applying for an inspection?
It all depends on how confident you are in your electrical work abilities and knowledge of the current electrical code. 

*From the ESA PDF:*
https://www.esasafe.com/business/esasaf-permits-and-inspections/inspection-fees
*For 2016:* 


> *2.1 Minimum Fee*
> *The minimum fee for an Application for Inspection of any wiring installation is $79.*
> Fees marked with * are subject to the minimum fee if the total fee for the Application for Inspection is less than $79.





> 2.2 Rounding up of Amounts
> If a fee varies according to the number of hours spent performing a service, the actual time shall be rounded up to the nearest hour in calculating the fee.
> If a fee varies according to the number of multiples of a stated number of items or units, the actual number shall be rounded up to the next multiple in calculating the fee.
> 
> ...


So the permit and fees will vary depending on what work is contracted by the homeowner to an electrician who must be registered with ESA.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

carverman said:


> So the permit and fees will vary depending on what work is contracted by the homeowner to an electrician who must be registered with ESA.


What it come down to is:
1. You can replace a light switch or timer or a light fixture yourself. No labour or permit costs.
2. You can do any other work you wish, but first apply for a permit and when done get an inspection. Cost of inspection varies with amount of work done. But you better become familiar with code and have some electrical smarts. If it's not right, there are additional re-inspection costs.
3. For certain smaller jobs, licensed electrical contractors do not need a permit or inspection. For example, install a gfci or receptacle. You get to pay their hourly rate ($80-$120?) Or you do it yourself and pay about same for permit/inspection. So let them do it and maybe develop a relationship with a contractor.
4. For more complex jobs, probably best to get a contractor. We will soon chang our service panel - 1/3 parts 2/3 labour.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

agent99 said:


> What it come down to is:
> 1. You can replace a light switch or timer or a light fixture yourself. No labour or permit costs.


I think that any switch, duplex plug or light fixture/ceiling fan can be handled by homeowner. provided they know what
they are doing. 
Provided the switch/receptacle/light fixture existed already, and the new part is a repair of a defective original part
or even an upgrade, it shouldn't require the additional expense of requesting a permit or inspection from the ESA.

Only if new wiring needs to be run or wiring changes to the electrical panel.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

carverman said:


> I think that any switch, duplex plug or light fixture/ceiling fan can be handled by homeowner. provided they know what
> they are doing.
> Provided the switch/receptacle/light fixture existed already, and the new part is a repair of a defective original part
> or even an upgrade, it shouldn't require the additional expense of requesting a permit or inspection from the ESA.
> ...


You should read the rules. You may not like what they say. What I posted was extracted from ESA inspection requirements pdf that I also posted upthread: https://www.esasafe.com/assets/files/esasafe/pdf/Bulletins/2-3-16.pdf Receptacles incl gfci require an LEC.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

agent99 said:


> *You should read the rules. You may not like what they say.* What I posted was extracted from ESA inspection requirements pdf that I also posted upthread: https://www.esasafe.com/assets/files/esasafe/pdf/Bulletins/2-3-16.pdf Receptacles incl gfci require an LEC.


 I did read the rules and this is exactly how I interpret them. I've changed a few switches and worn out duplex receptacles
in my old 42 year old house and I didn't think it was necessary to call ESA for a special inspection at $79 + hst each time
I replaced a plug or switch. 

That's $79 +hst = almost $90 to inspect a $2 duplex receptacle replacement..that's ridiculous!
and nothing but a money grab. For those that are afraid of 120v circuits and can't figure out which breaker to turn off
at the main panel, or which wire goes where, I suggest they do call an electrician...
but for DIY guys like me, as long as it's in my own house, I am allowed to do it. 

The plug contacts on duplex receptacles do get loose and it's best to just replace them, as they are cheap to buy at CTC. 
Besides, if changing any switches or receptacles was illegal under the current rules, H-D and CTC and other plumbing-
electrical suppLiers would not be able to sell them at all to the general public. 

From the above Current ESA bulletin:

Bulletin 2-3-16
*An application for inspection not required
Rule 2-005
Issued May 2016
Supersedes Bulletin 2-3-15*
Scope
(1) Rule 2-005 - *An application for inspection not required (Basic exemption)
*
(a) *Replacement of utilization equipment, receptacles or switches*
(b) *Replacement of luminaires and general use switches* **

**That also means replacing a standard duplex receptacle with a GFCI and a standard light switch with a dimmer. 

(c) Installation of wiring and equipment connected to a Class 2 supply


> In general, a Class 2 circuit (operating at 24V with a power supply durably marked "Class 2" and not exceeding 100VA) is the type most commonly used. The NEC defines a Class 2 circuit as that portion of the wiring system between the load side of a Class 2 power source and the connected equipment.


In other words anything that runs off 24vac ..furnace wiring, door bell etc. 

(d) Connection or replacement of appliances (electrical stoves at 240vac0
(e) *Repairs on existing utilization equipment
*


That last rule statement pretty much tells me that "existing utilization" is whatever is already wired up in the house.
For reconnecting 120vac to a new furnace , or changing out an electrically heated water tank..you don't need to call an ESA inspection as long as the existing utilization wiring is used.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

carverman said:


> I did read the rules and this is exactly how I interpret them.


I don't want to argue with you. If you want to do stuff in your own house, go ahead. But the rules are very clear as to what you, as a house owner, are legally allowed to do without a permit and inspection (Table B1 in the pdf in post #27). Not being able to change a receptacle without breaking law bothers me too.


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