# How to Deal with Discriminatory People



## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

So today's adventures bring me to a dance studio where I and a really nice lady are sharing a table, she is reading a book, every once in a while we nod at each other peacefully. Enter the villain a particularly abrasive woman, who seems to be everywhere, her grand kids go to my school, she's at my dance studio etc. My son and her grand daughter get on like a house on fire, playing and carrying on. 

So she sits down and starts spouting some vile crap about how at our school, her granddaughter was bullied because she was white and all the principal did was make the kid apologize and on and on about how she thinks there is some kind of reverse racist plot at the school. So I'm politely disagreeing with her, but I can't honestly react to some of the crap that is coming out of her mouth. The nice lady sitting with us is black and I felt really bad because of the nature of the stuff this lady was saying. Ironically, I wouldn't care if she was going off because I just ignore her bigotted *** and the crap she says anyways. 

I've been in other situations where people say a racist joke about minorities and honestly I just shut my mouth and don't confront these people for being assholes. 

Is there a proper way to deal with these situations? Seriously I have enough enemies from the blog lol without starting crap at my kid's dance studio with some broad who's off her meds. I'd like to just stand up and say loudly " Excuse me but I'm not listening to your bigotry/racism anymore" but then I'd have an enemy for life. It also hurts people's feelings ? 

Anyone have similar experiences to share? How did you deal with it?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I was in line at the grocery store behind an elderly white couple. The wife made some comment to me about the cashier, who was a teenage girl wearing a hijab, something about why 'those people' are allowed to wear towels on their head at work or something. I was so taken aback that I just stared blankly at her for a few seconds. I wasn't sure what to say in that situation so I mumbled something to her and turned away. It's not my nature to cause a scene, but I was fuming... It put me in bad mood for the rest of the evening, and I wasn't even the object of that bigotry.

What do you even say in that situation?


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I know... totally. Later the snappy comebacks and things I should have said come out but while it's going on total silence. Then I get really mad at myself and say to myself "It's because of idiots like you that this goes on!" /maybe I'm being way too hard on myself, I don't think that I've ever heard anyone else speak out in a situation like that either...

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. " - Edmund Burke


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The best response I heard was one time a guy was going on and on........and finally he turned to another guy and said........right?

The guy responded..........well, that's your story.

It put it right back on the guy.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

I don't think there is a pleasant way to deal with these people so I ignore them. They are not embarrassed about sharing their bigotry in public, so what could you possibly say to them? They are basically real life internet trolls.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Haters will hate, bigots will be bigots


I simple say those are views I can't and don't agree with.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I agree with what you said berubeland that she is nuts.

I will say however that just because someone is white doesn't mean that they can't be a victim of racism. Where I live there is a lot of racism against white people. If you are white and go to a some Chinese restaurants you could be told it is full and you need a reservation and then told you can't get one that evening if you try. Then you notice Chinese people getting in without a reservation. I have heard this happening to out of town people who have visited. 

All I am saying is racism is everywhere and white people are just as much victims as everyone else. You mentioned the woman across from you was black. Did the women actually say stuff in regards to her skin color during her rants because it shouldn't offend her any more then you, living in Canada today.


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## jack cash (Nov 17, 2012)

I used to be quiet about it because it is the polite thing to do, but now I call people out on it. This includes comments about sexuality and religion. The way I see it is that those people don't have any more right than you or I to give their opinions. When people around me start going off on things I just call them on it. Obviously I don't bother with internet people or total strangers, but if I have to interact with people regularly they need to follow standard social norms.

Now how you go about doing it is totally up to you. When my grandma says something I am really polite and just say, "Well, the world is changing and we can't focus on the differences between people anymore." Hopefully you can politely tell this woman next time she starts that you'd rather talk about something else, otherwise you're going to be an outlet for all her future rants.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Berubeland said:


> ... I've been in other situations where people say a racist joke about minorities and *honestly I just shut my mouth and don't confront these people for being assholes. *
> Is there a proper way to deal with these situations? Seriously I have enough enemies from the blog lol without starting crap at my kid's dance studio with some broad who's off her meds. I'd like to just stand up and say loudly " Excuse me but I'm not listening to your bigotry/racism anymore" but then I'd have an enemy for life. It also hurts people's feelings ?
> 
> Anyone have similar experiences to share? How did you deal with it?


 ... keeping quiet does not mean that you're an easy target/pushover - this is to avoid confrontation and for safety reasons. I think pulling out a camera phone to film her (or pretend to film her) might shut her up (wannna see yourself on Candid Camera or YouTube lady?). This is provided she is not off her meds but who knows. Blatant discriminatory rants like this doesn't bother me much as the subtle ones in the workplace, hospitality, transit, etc. That is like a disease in society that never gets cured.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

oops, not sure what happened, double posting.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I just say "I disagree!" and leave it at that. If asked to clarify, I will say "I am sorry but I disagree with what you are saying!"

Any further comment is bound to create controversy. I was at dinner with a normally nice woman from Montreal who was going on about Mexicans and a Mexican lady friend from LA was at the table. I said "every situation needs to be analyzed on its own merits" and winked at the Mexican lady.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

kcowan said:


> and winked at the Mexican lady.


At which point, her husband said.......:biggrin:


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Nemo2 said:


> At which point, her husband said.......:biggrin:


that's no lady, thatsa my wife.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I think in my efforts to be a better person, I'm going to work harder to be more outspoken (ha !) about these kind of snide comments and bigoted remarks and racist jokes and picking on people of all kinds in my presence. That's right I'm discriminating against the discriminators. :chuncky:


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

Berubeland said:


> That's right I'm discriminating against the discriminators. :chuncky:


LOL. That would teach them a lesson!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I encounter them so rarely that I'm usually caught flatfooted. Overt racism seems to be pretty rare these days, or maybe I just don't come into contact with the types who think it's acceptable behaviour.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Not a lot you can do, and there are children involved as well. All I can do is share my tactic: Fake insanity. It actually comes up rarely, but I usually go along with whatever the person is talking about, and then interject "You know who really grinds my gears?" "Aliens. Always with the probing and the slaughtering of cattle." Then I'll go on ragging on just about everybody. Short people, people with green eyes, left handed people. People with clubbed feet, the deaf, the blind, the old, the young. Whatever it takes. I once told a guy my dog hates jewish people. "How he can tell is beyond me" I said, "But that's what he told me."

Either they get the point and they shut up, or they don't and they think I'm crazy, and then they shut up.


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## emperor (Jul 24, 2011)

For jokes you gotta lighten up, most jokes are taboo on one subject or another. 

As for dealing with people I just tell them that with the way science is going in a few generations you will be able to pick the color of your kid and it won't matter any more. You can then steer the conversation to some form of techno babble maybe like how they are building real life terminators http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdYSStF4fqc


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## Guigz (Oct 28, 2010)

emperor said:


> For jokes you gotta lighten up, most jokes are taboo on one subject or another.


I agree that it is difficult to be politically correct at all times, especially when saying a joke.

I also think that people are quick to cry discrimination when it could just be some culture clash that is poorly expressed. 

In the earlier example of the older person and the cashier, maybe the older person was not comfortable with not being able to see the cashier's face. In some cultures, this is a sign of aggression. 

I think it is important to flip the situation around and contextualize before judging people.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Consider that the person that says these things in public is probably only a _little_ bit more racist than the average person. More than likely they are just vocal, uncensored people in general, and you just happened to catch them on their "some black guy pissed me off" rant instead of their "my internet is too slow" rant.

Also I think it's only fair to adjust the "racism scale" up and down depending on age. A 60 year old grandmother will use completely different language than a 20 year old college kid, but they still have the same motivations for what they are saying. My mother often talks of people by their ethnicity for no apparent reason. But she's just using it as a descriptor, while us younger folks have been trained to be politically correct and not describe by race.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't think it's a problem to describe people with their racial background. It's overboard PC to make even mentioning race taboo. The taboo should be on prejudice or stereotyping based on race.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

I agree with you, andrewf. I think it depends on why the person's race is mentioned. All the political correctness in the world can't change the fact that a pale blonde looks different from a black person so if one is trying to describe a person's appearance for a valid reason, there's nothing wrong with mentioning their race or colour. Recently I read about a bank robbery where the reporter described the thief as having dark hair; later there was a picture of him being arrested and he was obviously black. To me, that's carrying political correctness to ridiculous extremes - describing him accurately could well have made the difference between his being arrested or not - fortunately, in this case, he was arrested anyway.

Re peterk's comment about the generational difference in how people talk about this, my granddaughter was recently a maid-of-honour at a Caucasian friend's wedding; I had often heard her talk about her friend's fiancé, but it wasn't until after I saw photos of the wedding that I realized that the fiancé is black; it had never crossed my granddaughter's mind to mention that because it simply wasn't important. I don't think I have a racist bone in my body but, as an older person, I would probably have mentioned it, not in a disapproving way, but just because I would have considered it a point of interest. Why would I think that? I don't really know - thinking about it, I realize it isn't really worthy of mention, and I learned a good lesson from my granddaughter.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Excellent point Karen. I think most of the time an older person mentions someone's race it's nothing more than a point of interest or a novelty. Perhaps there were less minorities a few decades ago and it made for a good talking point for the bored masses of white people?

When describing a person I think leaving out race is a ridiculous notion. While it has no or very little relevance to the person's character, as a physical description it's almost as fundamental as gender...


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

to the OP.
i luv these polemic posts.
i am a white Caucasian Jew.:eek2:.
where i come from (Israel) we have white, brown, black even yellow Jews.
we also have approximately 1.5 million Arabs that are Israeli Citizens but do not serve in the Army.
we come from all 4 corners of the world.
In Canada i look like an European person.
as soon as i say i am a Jew 95% of the people say.... really ? it cannot be .
you have an accent but it sounds European.
so i ask the OP .
what should i do ?
hide?
live in fear?
I am yet to find a person on earth that is not a bigot.
lets be real and serious people.
But i will tell the OP the following.
we, Jews , have a history of bigotry and hatred , therefore nothing appalls me .
what happens then?
It just makes me stronger .

there is no way to deal with discrimination.
It always existed and will never cease to exist.
Since this forum is so sensitive to certain comments, my comment may shock some people here.
have a wonderful weekend.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

thenegotiator said:


> I am yet to find a person on earth that is not a bigot.
> lets be real and serious people.
> 
> Since this forum is so sensitive to certain comments, my comment may shock some people here.
> have a wonderful weekend.


Yes everyone has preconceptions, presumptions, prejudices etc nurtured by the popular opinion of their group. Even the general word "people" on this thread and forum usually only refers to Canadians at most

If you try to discuss an opinion with someone and instead of considering it, they just become more and more defensive and closed minded they are being bigots

Most people have many opinions that are open for discussion, and then others that they are immediately subconsiously against. The only way to see some of your own is to immerse yourself in other cultures


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

The other problem is that Jews are both a religion and a country. I think Elizabeth tailor was a Jew. When referring to people from Israel, the term Israeli is most correct.


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## Mall Guy (Sep 14, 2011)

Like Austin Powers says . . . _"Talk to the hand, 'cause the face don't want to hear it"_


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Negotiator: why are people surprised that you're a Jew, if you're white with a European accent? Although, most Jews you meet in Canada are native born Canadians.

I suspect people are more surprised when they meet a white, Canadian-accented Muslim. Or an Arab Christian....


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

In Istanbul, we met an Muslim Arab from Wales. Abdul Challah and his lovely blonde wife. We were surprised when we discovered their background. They had flown in to celebrate a key birthday. We shared some champagne with them.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

andrewf said:


> Negotiator: why are people surprised that you're a Jew, if you're white with a European accent? Although, most Jews you meet in Canada are native born Canadians.
> 
> I suspect people are more surprised when they meet a white, Canadian-accented Muslim. Or an Arab Christian....




when i said "why" Andrewf" i meant that as soon as they find out i am an Israeli and obviously a Jew , i become ostracized .
that is what i meant.
I do not really care because i have lived through , seen and done many things that posters here cannot fathom.
I can call myself today a "mellow" person in that sense.
and i am .
any other times i would make much harsher comments in regards to racism.
now , mind ya that Armenians have similar history.
not in any way similar to the holocaust and other events of persecution for centuries against us.
maybe u can understand my answer now.
I am surprised that nobody mentioned the japanese people here.
they marry their own and are very secluded from other nations .
i do respect that .that is the way they want to be .
nothing wrong.
does that make them Bigots?
let's say us Jews. I am married to a Jewish Woman .
many Jews do not. as aJew i believe that Jews should marry Jews!!
actually I do not believe. it is a commandment for us Jewish people.
anything wrong with that ?
Am I a Bigot because of that?
No i am not.
i am following my tradition and my religion.
But everyone on this board will probably characterize me as a Bigot right?


In regards to your comment about White Canadian accent Muslims?
Maybe you have not met enough Lebanese people.
A lot of them are white , blue eyed and guess what Muslims.
Have you ever been to Lebanon?
I have . and for very unfortunate causes.
Have i seen many Lebanese people as I described outside of Lebanon?
yes. maybe you should find out why there are many White Lebanese Muslims.

anyway like I said You all have a great weekend.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

mode3sour said:


> Yes everyone has preconceptions, presumptions, prejudices etc nurtured by the popular opinion of their group. Even the general word "people" on this thread and forum usually only refers to Canadians at most
> 
> If you try to discuss an opinion with someone and instead of considering it, they just become more and more defensive and closed minded they are being bigots
> 
> Most people have many opinions that are open for discussion, and then others that they are immediately subconsiously against. The only way to see some of your own is to immerse yourself in other cultures


Sorry mode3sour.
i am trying to dissect ur point here.
i used the word "people" to make it general.
Should I use " all mankind " then?
at best ur answer is extremely evasive and i am clueless as to what are u trying to imply.
what is a "closed minded " person.
ha ... let me go back in history.
JEWS IN GERMANY .... pre second world war.
were they "open minded " enough?
we had Jews in all areas of education.
Doctors , philosophers, artists, lawyers , businessman and the list goes on and on.
they became intrinsically integrated to the German society.
they were extremely well accepted before the war.
all of a sudden they were considered all the worst things and critters that mankind cannot fathom right?
something like Ahmadinehjad "PUBLICLY" throws out there , INCLUDING the HOLOCAUST DENIAL.
Therefore i am going to use the word again.
Do "people" here believe it did not happen?
i am also "people".
If you want please clarify.
Vagueness is not helpfull.
I strongly believe that this thread will actually reveal who are and who are not Anti Semites.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

kcowan said:


> The other problem is that Jews are both a religion and a country. I think Elizabeth tailor was a Jew. When referring to people from Israel, the term Israeli is most correct.


Israeli = an Israeli Citizen
Arabs in Israel = an Israeli Citizen
Christians or Catholics in Israel = An Israeli citizen
are they Jews or Muslims?
they are Muslims and Israelis. they are not Jews.
The Christians or Chatolics are also Israeli citizens. 

your point above is totally wrong.

I am an Israeli Citizen and a Jew.


for Mode3 sour............. is that "open minded enough"


In Israel we have several religions and several cultures.


I am going to ask "people" here to base their comments in facts .
not only opinions.
anyone can have an opinion .
the facts are what matters.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

kcowan said:


> When referring to people from Israel, the term Israeli is most correct.





thenegotiator said:


> your point above is totally wrong.
> 
> I am an Israeli Citizen and a Jew.


Isn't that what he said though?



thenegotiator said:


> I strongly believe that this thread will actually reveal who are and who are not Anti Semites.


How did my post imply antisemitism in any way?



thenegotiator said:


> I am surprised that nobody mentioned the japanese people here.
> they marry their own and are very secluded from other nations .
> i do respect that .that is the way they want to be .


I have a friend who is part Japanese part Irish, and it never really occurred to me at all that he was even part Asian until he brought it up. Even if I were to describe him before I never would have thought of it. Wait, part Japanese? If someone told me they were Jewish, I would have the same reaction. "Oh really?" I'm always interested when people bring up their backgrounds or cultures, but the common reaction is awkward because of past discrimination and maybe comes out rude by accident. Sounds to me like maybe nothing ever occurred to them, besides that you had a foreign accent.



thenegotiator said:


> I am going to ask "people" here to base their comments in facts .
> not only opinions.
> anyone can have an opinion .
> the facts are what matters.


I was actually agreeing with your first post, that everyone is discriminatory by nature in some way. It could also be against overweight people, handicapped, or people with different opinions or beliefs. You can't discuss everything in facts, because you can often just use another "fact" to make a counter opinion. It's always easy to see when others are discriminatory and maybe it's not intentional, but it's not to see your own


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

mode3sour said:


> Isn't that what he said though?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did i ever say You are an anti Semite Mode#3?
apparently you thought i was referring to you as it seems that YOU felt like it.
if u are agreeing with my original first post , then what is your point here?
by the way.... the ONLY way to discuss anything is to base yourself with facts and history.
Is it not a fact that the NAZIS systematically exterminated over 6 million Jews?
when i say Jews I include everyone ... from babies to the elders.
IS IT NOT TRUE THAT ALL JEWISH POSSESSIONS WERE CONFISCATED IN EUROPE?

So far i read nothing here counter attacking my points.

as For your friend half Japanese half Irish you have never noticed a semblance of Japanese in Him?

ask your friend If i am right or not , even though he is half Irish.
well since you are so interested in my JEWISH background how can I tell you about it?
ask me questions related to either being Jewish or an ISRAELI.
the two are not the same.

This is what OPEN MINDED MEANS ?
see this small video bellow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuMWCAuIwXU


If an Israeli woman went to Iran and protested what would happen to her Mode3?
any more questions about being open minded?
do u think i can do that in Saudi Arabia?
Imagine Israelis like me trying to visit Meca.:eek2::eek2:
, Siria, Lebanon oh let me bring up the good one .....IRAN.
let me tell you something about being open minded.
JEWS are not allowed there.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

an example of "open minded culture"
for the OP and Mode 3 sour.
what is the problem with facts mode3?
do u have a problem with facts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muRXWLjUb90



I have a whole collection about cultural "open minded " issues.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

The original thread was about how to deal with discrimination at my kids dance school specifically when it happens to a third party and you are in the room. 

How this degenerated to postings of Saudi beheadings I don't know. What proof is this of anything? It's not discrimination, it's following the law in that country. How different is this from the United States executing prisoners on death row? Let me tell you the people are just as dead.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

Berubeland said:


> The original thread was about how to deal with discrimination at my kids dance school specifically when it happens to a third party and you are in the room.
> 
> How this degenerated to postings of Saudi beheadings I don't know. What proof is this of anything? It's not discrimination, it's following the law in that country. How different is this from the United States executing prisoners on death row? Let me tell you the people are just as dead.


hmmm.. you are right.
how the hell did that happened......
its like a snowball.
one thing brings another.
maybe ur name should not have been added .
but u think it is ok to behead people even though it is "their law"
funny thing is that "we " Jewish people have similar laws of stoning , cutting hands , beheading etc...
u must know that the ARABS are our cousins.
you also must know that the Quran came after the what you gentiles call the "old testament".
do u know how many times we actually executed those laws?
NEVER.
what is ur opinion anyway?
just curious
maybe u have the answer for ur kids dance school by now.

It is much different than in the states.
did u ever see a public execution in the states?
lets all gather round in a plaza and watch someone being hanged or given a lethal injection.
unheard of.
maybe u have seen it?
I have not.

my child did not go to a Jewish school here in Canada.
was she ostracized?
damn right she was.
did she become stronger?
damn right she did.
I will leave it here.
this is going nowhere.
So what do you think of me?
am i a biggot?
do not worry/
i do not get offended if someone calls me a biggot.
i am an adult and i can take more than u can imagine in ur lifetime.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

Berubeland said:


> The original thread was about how to deal with discrimination at my kids dance school specifically when it happens to a third party and you are in the room.
> 
> How this degenerated to postings of Saudi beheadings I don't know. What proof is this of anything? It's not discrimination, it's following the law in that country. How different is this from the United States executing prisoners on death row? Let me tell you the people are just as dead.


it is funny that u mentioned absolutely nothing about the palestinian protest against the Israeli soldiers is it not?
u focused on the beheadings only.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I don't think it's ok to behead people but it's not worse than lethal injection per se. The end result is the same. Death. 

Do you believe that it's ok to kill people as long as no one watches? It's not in public so it's ok? 

I happen to think all religion is stupid and *very harmful*. Frankly if I started talking about my imaginary friend Ralph and what h's telling me to do or not do I would be locked up pretty quickly, but if that imaginary friend is Jesus or Allah or YHWH or __________ it's ok to go about just any mischief or weirdness. Other people will even join me! 

If I say that God told me to do something, I can justify some of the most irrational behaviour on the planet. It's obscene. The less real information or educated the subjects are the more outrageous my claims can be. 

Also God says to send me money  PM me for my address.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Well said.........Berubeland.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Well said.........Berubeland.


agree, well said & I had to lol at the last sentence, thanks I needed a good laugh this morning


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Berubeland there are two sides to the coin on religion. One side is the crazy fanatical side that does all the stupid stuff in the name of god. But the other side is the one that says help the poor do good and help out in the community. Without religion there could be no end to the evil people do.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

The theme of this thread is about *discrimination*, not about a single discriminatory event/example, hence what has been mentioned thus far, ie: race/religion, etc., is not off-topic. If someone starts a thread wishing to discuss *polemic/* sensitive topics, then should also be open & prepared to hear the examples/experiences of others in a respectful manner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination

It is fine not to believe in any religion, but to call them 'stupid' is unnecessary IMHO, and frankly, I don't find any humour in mocking God, whether you believe in him/her or not.

'A global 2012 poll reports that 59% of the world's population is religious.'


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Berubeland said:


> Do you believe that it's ok to kill people as long as no one watches?


Audience is not the issue, so you're missing the point entirely!

How many countries are using this punishment in the 21st century? It's not an issue of who is watching, but those receiving the punishment. For example, in the KSA and Iran, people are beheaded for:

- adultery
- apostasy
- drug trafficking
- homosexuality
- rape
- robbery
- & other lesser offenses.

The good news is that the executions have decreased thanks to world condemnation, *despite the fact that it's their law & not ours.*

Not the discrimination you were thinking of, but you opened the doors for the discussion.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

Berubeland said:


> Also God says to send me money


I don't see that as mockery of god at all, it was a joke and I thought a funny one whether you are an atheist, agnostic, religious or believe in santa claus and the tooth fairy.
Any time issues like this are discussed I think it's fair to expect some of us to get their backs up a bit but there's no reason not to try to keep it light with a little humour IMHO.

I happen to agree with Berubeland. I think that religion has done a *lot* more harm than good in the world and that it's time we as a species outgrew it. We have something called science now.

That said I know a lot of very decent people who are religious, and do out of respect bow my head during prayer when breaking bread with them.
Also if one is agnostic like me, it can't hurt to keep all the bases covered, just in case


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Well said Toronto.gal

We have gone so far away from religion and such that now we find it popular to go against it and tend to discriminate against those who do believe. 

It may also become popular at some point to rally against and even kill others of another race or religion. When push comes to shove people will do almost anything. If you went to prison in some places in the US you may have to join a white nazi group just to survive. 

I know I have to battle against my own knee jerk racist thoughts and intolerance from time to time as I believe everyone does. 

It also spans into the investment world the popular thought and opinions. Back in 2007 when you mentioned investing in gold and the possible threat of financial collapse or extreme problems you were told to wear a tin foil hat and go live in a bunker. Now when you say buy gold those very same people are now silent of their extreme remarks and will instead give a much better argument if they don't think you should be buying gold today. Also this one goes out to belguy and that is back in 2007 buy and hold was king and any sort of trading was frowned upon and often ridiculed to the extreme at times.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

MrPPricer I disagree because the vast majority of people in Canada and the world simply cannot think for themselves and need to follow something. They will follow a path of pure evil or one of good depending on the popular choices out there. It was very popular not to long ago to hate gay people and now it is popular to do the opposite and so they follow. If enough people can make it very popular to hate gay people again then that will be the case as the sheeple will once again follow. Religion gives people a place to go to do good and yes bad if the teachings are bent to where they shouldn't be but overall the mainstream religions teach good and gives people a place to go to make good a popular choice.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

mrPPincer said:


> 1. I don't see that as mockery of god at all, it was a joke...
> 2. I think that religion has done a *lot* more harm than good in the world...


1. Perhaps in a different context I could find it funny, but when you say that religion is 'stupid' and then follow it with a joke, it's not humorous, it's a bit unpleasant. Moreover, for a thread titled and dealing with discrimination, I would think sensitivity would be more important than humour.

2. Is it religion that caused/causes terrible harm to people or the other way around? For example, are religions to blame for the actions of religious fanatics, or are the fanatics to blame for abusing/misinterpreting & using religion as a means to a political or other end?

*Dogcom:* I could not agree with you more; it's easy to blame religion for all evils, isn't it?!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Religion is not funny?

What about Pastafarianism?









"2. Is it religion that caused/causes terrible harm to people or the other way around? For example, are religions to blame for the actions of religious fanatics, or are the fanatics to blame for abusing/misinterpreting & using religion as a means to a political or other end?"

In the same sense that nuclear weapons never harmed anyone, just people using them for evil ends. So, we should regulate people and not nuclear weapons.

It's like the gun control rhetoric in the US. "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". More accurately, "People with guns kill people."


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

They did a poll in the UK about how religious people really are. Many of those who claimed to be Christian on the UK census questionnaire had very weak religious attitudes once you scratched even slightly at what that meant to them.

Some highlights:



> Not only has the number of UK adults calling themselves Christian dropped dramatically since the 2001 Census – our research suggests that it is now only 54% – even those who still think of themselves as Christian show very low levels of religious commitment:
> 
> • Only about a third of what we shall call 'Census-Christians' cited religious beliefs as the reason they had ticked the Christian box in the 2011 Census
> 
> ...


I imagine the results would be very similar in Canada. People call themselves religious/Christian when really all this means is that they consider themselves to be good/moral people. 

It's a fascinating study.

Read the rest:
http://old.richarddawkins.net/artic...s-mori-poll-1-how-religious-are-uk-christians


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

I have a feeling when you ask many people whether they are religious or not, they give a safe answer. Just say yes... just in case. If there is a God, you don't want to meet him and deal with the repercussions. Much easier to cover your butt now.

As far as discrimination, just like anything else... you need to get em while they're young. When your four year old asks you why the next guy in line has black skin, you need to say "because his family lived in a very sunny place for a very long time" instead of saying "because he's a (insert derogatory term here)". Of course religion complicates these things. It's harder to explain to a child how people can vary in religious beliefs, looks, etc. when you believe in one true God, or choose not to acknowledge evolution or what have you.


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## bayview (Nov 6, 2011)

Most of us would like to hedge our investments in one form or another. Even in marriage some people would hedge with a pre-nup agreement. 

To those who dont agree that God exists - have you considered the Pascal's Wager?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It is impossible to debate religion anyways.

As someone once said..........you can't have an intelligent conversation or debate when the other side is relying on the mystical concept of blind faith.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I should add that I support anyone's decision to practice their own religion, provided it doesn't impinge on my rights to also live my life. If religion gives people comfort........I see nothing detrimental in that.

Unfortunately, it is at the core of religion to "convert" others to their beliefs, and to try to affect laws that reflect their religious beliefs, and that force others to accept those beliefs as fact.

The abortion issue comes immediately to mind.

As Christopher Hitchens often talked or wrote about............religion is far from a benign entity.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

sags said:


> It is impossible to debate religion anyways.


It's not about debating religion, and it's not about atheists vs. theists; it's simply about respecting the other. 

I have many friends who are atheists, but I don't consider nor call them bad or stupid.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I looked up the source study for T.Gal's wikipedia quote "A global 2012 poll reports that 59% of the world's population is religious"


From that, the number of people who perceive themselves religious is dropping very very rapidly. Countries such as Canada, Netherlands, Australia, China, Japan are on the lower end of "religiosity". Then they compare education and purchasing power to the ratio of religious people. I'm sure they could also compare violence to religion in the same way, but it's mostly irrelevant imo. The vast majority will just do and think as those around them do such as their friends and family etc and there will be animosity towards those who are different. Religion is just one component of that and then clashing religions together is no different than clashing people with different languages or ethnicity etc etc etc.

I grew up going to Baptist church myself but many of my friends of a tiny school went to various churches from Pentecostals to Jehovahs often even just around the corner. Even some of my relatives and step parents went to slightly different Anglican or Catholics churches. So to me looking around it was obvious that everyone has taken their own loose interpretation on religion so I never took it as written in stone myself. I considered myself agnostic before I even knew of the term, as in I don't subscribe to one hard religious interpretation and rituals but I don't necessarily think we can prove everything with present understanding of science either.

Later I even looked into Islam and I've been immersed in it for quite awhile. What do you know, the very very basic core beliefs are very much the same except they go to a mosque on Friday instead of a church on Sunday, swap a crescent with the cross, swap Lent for Ramadan, while good deeds and belief in the creator lead to salvation in heaven/paradise etc etc. What is vastly different is their culture and rituals, but the two cannot seem to fathom the other's frame of mind? No different than French and English really. Now I even like to read about Buddhism, and it's maybe the most interesting to me yet. It has more emphasis on how to avoid unwholesome actions and encourage good ones. It seems progressive, yet it is the oldest of them all.

I was leaning towards the idea that many have here that religion causes more harm than good, but until everyone speaks the same language, looks the same, and have equal bank accounts it's likely irrelevant. I kind of wonder what happens to the level of self control and morality on average as it drops though. How many people would run a marathon just randomly if nobody organized one? For things that are not hard laws of the land or encouraged with money, a lot of people really seem to have little real direction without some organized guidance. You can see a difference in how people treat strangers in different cultures. I think that was the whole point of them all in the first place, that human nature has a tendency towards evil unless guided and self controlled somehow.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

In my personal opinion, it is true that organized religions have been responsible for a horrendous amount of evil in this world, including such events as the Spanish Inquisition, the many evils of the extremist Muslim religion, and the many wars that have been fought over religions. Many aboriginal populations have been lured away from their traditional religions by well-meaning missionaries who converted them to religions that have no relevance to their culture and backgrounds - a practice I believe has been very harmful to many of these populations. I fully acknowledge that religions have done much good in the world as well but, in my opinion, the good they have done is vastly overridden by the bad. 

Although I am an atheist, I would never belittle the beliefs of others, but I deeply resent the suggestion that only religious people are good and moral and that humans without religious beliefs tend to be more evil than religious people. History certainly doesn't support the theory that being religious stops people from doing evil things. I know many atheists who do far more good in this world than many of my religious friends do, and it could even be said that they do it for more altruistic reasons - simply doing good for it's own sake, not because they fear the wrath of God if they don't.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

bayview said:


> Most of us would like to hedge our investments in one form or another. Even in marriage some people would hedge with a pre-nup agreement.
> 
> To those who dont agree that God exists - have you considered the Pascal's Wager?


Pascal's wager is pretty lame.

It presupposes that God is jealous and cruel, in that he would banish an otherwise good person to hell/etc. for not believing in him/genuflecting sufficiently. If that's the god you worship, you can keep him.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

Berubeland said:


> The original thread was about how to deal with discrimination at my kids dance school specifically when it happens to a third party and you are in the room.
> 
> How this degenerated to postings of Saudi beheadings I don't know. What proof is this of anything? It's not discrimination, it's following the law in that country. How different is this from the United States executing prisoners on death row? Let me tell you the people are just as dead.





Berubeland said:


> I don't think it's ok to behead people but it's not worse than lethal injection per se. The end result is the same. Death.
> 
> Do you believe that it's ok to kill people as long as no one watches? It's not in public so it's ok?
> 
> ...





sags said:


> Well said.........Berubeland.





mrPPincer said:


> agree, well said & I had to lol at the last sentence, thanks I needed a good laugh this morning





mrPPincer said:


> I don't see that as mockery of god at all, it was a joke and I thought a funny one whether you are an atheist, agnostic, religious or believe in santa claus and the tooth fairy.
> Any time issues like this are discussed I think it's fair to expect some of us to get their backs up a bit but there's no reason not to try to keep it light with a little humour IMHO.
> 
> I happen to agree with Berubeland. I think that religion has done a *lot* more harm than good in the world and that it's time we as a species outgrew it. We have something called science now.
> ...





andrewf said:


> Religion is not funny?
> 
> What about Pastafarianism?
> 
> ...




Ha
did all of you get ur "5 minutes of fame"?

I will not even bother replying to so many senseless posts.
i am done here.
problem is that NOW THAT YOU KNOW THAT I AM AN ISRAELI JEWISH PERSON you will have to put up with me.
what a shame.
actually u can place me on ignore right?


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

Berubeland said:


> The original thread was about how to deal with discrimination at my kids dance school specifically when it happens to a third party and you are in the room.
> 
> How this degenerated to postings of Saudi beheadings I don't know. What proof is this of anything? It's not discrimination, it's following the law in that country. How different is this from the United States executing prisoners on death row? Let me tell you the people are just as dead.





sags said:


> Well said.........Berubeland.





mrPPincer said:


> agree, well said & I had to lol at the last sentence, thanks I needed a good laugh this morning





mrPPincer said:


> I don't see that as mockery of god at all, it was a joke and I thought a funny one whether you are an atheist, agnostic, religious or believe in santa claus and the tooth fairy.
> Any time issues like this are discussed I think it's fair to expect some of us to get their backs up a bit but there's no reason not to try to keep it light with a little humour IMHO.
> 
> I happen to agree with Berubeland. I think that religion has done a *lot* more harm than good in the world and that it's time we as a species outgrew it. We have something called science now.
> ...





andrewf said:


> Religion is not funny?
> 
> What about Pastafarianism?
> 
> ...





Berubeland said:


> I don't think it's ok to behead people but it's not worse than lethal injection per se. The end result is the same. Death.
> 
> Do you believe that it's ok to kill people as long as no one watches? It's not in public so it's ok?
> 
> ...





ha

the money part:rolleyes2:
i was just waiting for that one to be mentioned.
are you asking me for money because i am a Jew?
why don't you ask the QATARI sheik or prince Abdulah?

Oh I FORGOT .... THE JEWS ARE THE RICH PEOPLE AND CONTROL EVERYTHING ON EARTH.
sorry ....... no money honey


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

Karen.
i do respect your answer and the fact that you are an atheist.
i am not an atheist and i do believe in G'D.
Interestingly enough , if you look wayyyyy back where do the good principles come from?
the Old Testament right?
It does not mean that a non religious person( I am not religious at all , I am a secular Jew by alll means) cannot believe in G'D.
I have had several conversations with T.Gal and she more or less knows quite a bit about my past.
what i want to say is what came first morals or religion.
And I will go further.
If we followed 1 billionth of what is written in the Old book how wonderful the world would be is it not?
so the religion itself is not the problem.
One more time people are the problem ( i am probably going to offend mode 3 sour by saying "people" oy vei "
all the best to ya.
reflect on that:encouragement:


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Old Testament........stoning, eye for an eye philosophy, incest, polygamy, sacrificial lambs,.......a guide for living a moral life?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Jimmie Muldoon lived in a little house on the Irish countryside with only his dog.

The dog passed away, and Jimmie went down to the local parish and asked the priest......"Father, do you think you could have a wee service for my old friend here"?

"Sorry, Jimmie", said the priest, "but the church has rules against animals inside the church, but you could try the Baptists down the road. Who knows what they believe".

"Thank you Father", said Jimmie, "and would you think that a 5,000 Euro donation would be enough for the service"?

"Oh Lord," says the priest, "why didn't you tell me the dog was Catholic"?


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

sags said:


> The Old Testament........stoning, eye for an eye philosophy, incest, polygamy, sacrificial lambs,.......a guide for living a moral life?


Well said, sags.

And to thenegotiator: Have you even read the Old Testament? If we followed much of what is written in it, our country world would be a pretty terrible place to live.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

Karen said:


> Well said, sags.
> 
> And to thenegotiator: Have you even read the Old Testament? If we followed much of what is written in it, our country world would be a pretty terrible place to live.


I think i may have referred to the wrong person.
Yes i read the old testament several times.

stick with sags and the rest and your atheism.
this thread exactly shows who is what here.
i will not make any comments in regards to "our country".
yOU ALREADY HAD THE DEATH PENALTY HERE.
NOWADAYS a rapist or even a murder is less cruel then a moron that kills an animal.
the guy that kills an animal will probably be in Jail for the rest of his life here.
not so much for a murderer.

maybe you should read the old testament.

it looks like your buddy sags did not read any of it.
anyway .


i am surprised that nobody here wants to make an "inquisition" and bring one of those guys to burn me on fire?
like 200- 300 years ago The Jews were even responsible for the plague right?
same with Usury , although "THAT WAS THE ONLY THING THEY COULD DO FOR A LIVING"

last post from me here .
I knew this thread would lead to this.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Karen said:


> In my personal opinion, it is true that organized religions have been responsible for a horrendous amount of evil in this world, including such events as the Spanish Inquisition, the many evils of the extremist Muslim religion, and the many wars that have been fought over religions. Many aboriginal populations have been lured away from their traditional religions by well-meaning missionaries who converted them to religions that have no relevance to their culture and backgrounds - a practice I believe has been very harmful to many of these populations.


Yes absolutely but there are many other incentives/motivations hidden in those beside or behind religious ones. Was the Spanish Inquisition all to spread religion or also to control resources/power/politics? In all of them, from the nazis, religious wars to extremist islamists, there is someone with hidden agendas manipulating discrimination tendencies to their advantage. There are many times when different cultures can coexisted happily, until someone stirred them up. Did those people really care that their neighbours have different traditions, or they were convinced to be disadvantaged? Religious wars are always very profitable for some. What is the difference between spreading religious beliefs, and spreading political ones like we do today? We have it right this time, for all cultures and backgrounds?



Karen said:


> I deeply resent the suggestion that only religious people are good and moral and that humans without religious beliefs tend to be more evil than religious people. History certainly doesn't support the theory that being religious stops people from doing evil things. *I know* many atheists who do far more good in this world than many of my religious friends do, and it could even be said that they do it for more altruistic reasons - simply doing good for it's own sake, not because they fear the wrath of God if they don't.


I think the key is the "people" you know. If someone grows up with most of those around them doing good for altruistic reason, then chances are they will as well. What would those same people do in the opposite environment? I have seen areas where all the kids are taught to beg, and then others where the poorer kids even offer you a share of their scarce food. What would the kid with no guidance do? I never meant that only religious people are moral at all, I said that people need a direction or guidance of some sort. The vast majority tend to do what their society does, which can easily be manipulated either way. What I meant was I leaned away from religion but now I wonder who will direct our behaviors in the future with it falling so fast? Hollywood and teletoons?

How many Schindler's are there really?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Too bad that TN felt everything was directed at them. I hope they are only leaving the thread and not the forum.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

and the list of the " show me ur true color" keeps growing does it not kcowan?
as for them what do u mean?
ur special friends that i pinpointed so far?
including you?
ha .
i know .
do not worry for "them".
what about you?
any more special enlightening comments?


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

thenegotiator said:


> are you asking me for money because i am a Jew?


.....doth protest too much, methinks.

The 'send money' meme is generally associated with, (primarily U.S.), "Televangelists" (Protestant Christians), who appear to spend more time/effort in asking for donations than anything else......in 'popular N.American' culture this reference is immediately recognized by virtually everyone.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

Nemo2 said:


> .....doth protest too much, methinks.
> 
> The 'send money' meme is generally associated with, (primarily U.S.), "Televangelists" (Protestant Christians), who appear to spend more time/effort in asking for donations than anything else......in 'popular N.American' culture this reference is immediately recognized by virtually everyone.



i am not american.
therefore i cannot recognize everything that is posted.
back to trading.
if i am here my wallet does not get fatter.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

thenegotiator said:


> i am not american.
> therefore i cannot recognize everything that is posted.


(N.American = North American....which includes your current locale.)

If you recognize that you cannot recognize everything that is posted, then perhaps you should recognize that what you _think_ you _do_ recognize is perhaps subject to misinterpretation?


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Nemo2 said:


> .....doth protest too much, methinks.
> 
> The 'send money' meme is generally associated with, (primarily U.S.), "Televangelists" (Protestant Christians), who appear to spend more time/effort in asking for donations than anything else......in 'popular N.American' culture this reference is immediately recognized by virtually everyone.


True enough, however, there exists a very well known stereotype that Jewish people in general are greedy/money-lovers & rich; there are countless jokes about that, but that's definitely not what was said/intended here. 

Let's not take things personal, but let's stop ridiculing religion as well, it's not the place!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't associate Judaism with money-grubbing organized religion. I think of the evangelical churches that employ tithing, using the proceeds to build palaces to vanity (along with gold watches and silk sheets for the proprietor). That's what Rachelle's comment evoked for me.

negotiator seems to have a persecution complex. Every comment is not about you. Either that or he's trolling...

As far as people needing religion for moral guidance, that survey I posted is interesting. Only 10% of British census Christians use religious books/teachings for moral guidance.

Everything comes from the first principle of the golden rule (do unto others what you would have done unto you), which exists in every religion and predates them all. It is fundamental to humanity's nature as a social primate. Dress that up in religion if it suits you, but things tend to get muddied along the way.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Karen said:


> I deeply resent the suggestion that only religious people are good and moral and that humans without religious beliefs tend to be more evil than religious people. History certainly doesn't support the theory that being religious stops people from doing evil things. I know many atheists who do far more good in this world than many of my religious friends do, and it could even be said that they do it for more altruistic reasons - simply doing good for it's own sake, not because they fear the wrath of God if they don't.


+1


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> Yes absolutely but there are many other incentives/motivations hidden in those beside or behind religious ones. Was the Spanish Inquisition all to spread religion or also to control resources/power/politics? In all of them, from the nazis, religious wars to extremist islamists, there is someone with hidden agendas manipulating discrimination tendencies to their advantage. There are many times when different cultures can coexisted happily, until someone stirred them up. Did those people really care that their neighbours have different traditions, or they were convinced to be disadvantaged? Religious wars are always very profitable for some. What is the difference between spreading religious beliefs, and spreading political ones like we do today? We have it right this time, for all cultures and backgrounds?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think mode3sour is correct without direction or somewhere to go as in decent religion the world would most likely be a much worse place. Many people are good who are not religious but I believe many more would be much worse and dangerous without it. I said decent religion because there are many crazy religions out there that should never be followed and thank goodness the prevailing religions are good for the most part.

How many times have you heard people who have lost their way and done many bad things turn to god and change their lives. Take this away and only say that when you die there is nothing and nobody cares and then see what you get in general where there is no hope. Why not enjoy life and cheat lie and steal if there is no consequence to what one does good or bad.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think it's scarier to imagine that the only reason people hold back from murder/theft/assault/etc. is their fear of hell. Psychopaths, maybe, but I like to think most people have internal morality beyond fear of eternal damnation.

Mode is right that a lot of it is driven by social norms (ie culture). Thus some cultures are better than others in that their norms lead to more socially optimal outcomes (in terms of human happiness and welfare). Religion seems orthogonal to this discussion, though, since there are religious and secular societies with good norms and with bad norms.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

Toronto.gal said:


> True enough, however, there exists a very well known stereotype that Jewish people in general are greedy/money-lovers & rich; there are countless jokes about that, but that's definitely not what was said/intended here.
> 
> Let's not take things personal, but let's stop ridiculing religion as well, it's not the place!


Exactly Tgal, and no offense meant against any people who are religous, but this thread on discrimination has wandered into the topic of religion and I think the two are linked.

negotiator has already mention Usery, I was meaning to say something about that too this morning but he beat me to it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was gonna say the whole anti-semitism thing has it's roots in the fact that, way back when, in europe, the roman catholic church ran everything

A christian by law was not allowed to profit from the loaning of money, and a jew was not allowed to own land.
Every couple hundred or few hundred years or so, when somebody decided it was time to start a war and claim more land, and a lot of gold had been accumulated in non-christian hands, they would incite resentment, seize everything for the war effort, rinse and repeat all the way up to the nazis, using the same stale old story that the jews killed jesus.

Never mind that all those jesus stories (son of a virgin, water to wine, on and on all the way to the resurection) all had their roots in more ancient stories going back to the beginning of recorded history but that's another can of worms.

Negotiator has mentioned his ethnicity a number of times here with mention to that particular brand of discrimination, which is the only reason I used that as an example of christianity being at the root of one deep-seated problem in our society, but the moslem religion is no different.
Christian and the moslem religions are like two peas in a pod, with the same roots in the old testament, great tools to manipulate a populace into intolerant irrational warlike even genocidal behavior.

Mention was made of the old testament, well yes I've read it, in fact where I was schooled we had to study it every day and commonly the teachers believed in a literal interpretation. 
The OT is (along with all the stoning, eye for an eye philosophy, incest, polygamy, sacrificial lambs), full of slayings and slewings and outright genocide of entire tribes of people just for not accepting the one god (but more likely really just to steal some land and slaves).

(My apologies if the expression of any of my views here have offended anyone, that is certainly not my intention. I usually try to steer well clear of all the drama on the forum but I guess I kinda stumbled into this one).


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Yea...........not much future in this thread.......

Maybe we should all head back to the edge of the fiscal cliff thread, as it looks like we might really be going over.............

Buckle up and keep your arms inside the ride..........please.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> True enough, however, there exists a very well known stereotype that Jewish people in general are greedy/money-lovers & rich; there are countless jokes about that, but that's definitely not what was said/intended here.
> 
> Let's not take things personal, but let's stop ridiculing religion as well, it's not the place!


Good points T.Gal.
i am leaving this thread because it is going nowhere.
people are people and this matter will not be resolved.
sometimes the truth hurts.
much luck:encouragement:


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## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

Those who say religion has done more harm than good show a complete lack of historical knowledge. It's one of those comments that make me cringe like when someone says that people thought the world was flat before Columbus. 

What you are doing is predisposing your own values in the current secular culture onto a possibly flawed vision of the past. For how many centuries was religion the sole provider of education, health care, and stability? Wars have always been fought; if religion was not used as an excuse, take your pick from the laundry list of others: nationalism, ideology, expansion, culture, wealth, power, etc. Two of the worst offenders in history, the Soviet Union and Communist China, were/are atheist states. Imagine that.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

ofc I understand religion had a huge part to play in education and reading record keeping in europe in the past but how much ancient knowledge, plant lore etc was lost when they burned all the witches and heretics at the stake. I can't believe I couldn't help myself but respond to that, I meant to leave this thread for good.

I think the soviet union and china were dead on in regards to that part but they were massive countries with people in control with interests of their own and mistakes along the path are bound to be made on every side.

Argonaut I respect your opinions and the knowledge and experience you chose to share.
I plan and hope to leave this thread now for good but who knows.

btw I just dug up out of my sock drawer a dec 24 2008 newspaper with a headline "Rome rethinks its stand on Galileo" ...
After 400 years...
*After 400 years...*

Imagine that.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Regarding communism, I think we can also agree that dogmatism more broadly is bad. Putting the failure of communism onto atheism should also be cringe-inducing. Others have made the argument that communism was a form of religion.


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## thenegotiator (May 23, 2012)

Argonaut said:


> Those who say religion has done more harm than good show a complete lack of historical knowledge. It's one of those comments that make me cringe like when someone says that people thought the world was flat before Columbus.
> 
> What you are doing is predisposing your own values in the current secular culture onto a possibly flawed vision of the past. For how many centuries was religion the sole provider of education, health care, and stability? Wars have always been fought; if religion was not used as an excuse, take your pick from the laundry list of others: nationalism, ideology, expansion, culture, wealth, power, etc. Two of the worst offenders in history, the Soviet Union and Communist China, were/are atheist states. Imagine that.


I have decided to come back to this thread because of this post.
well said ARGONAUT
very good points.
and i will add ... no society nor any political system ever worked so far.
from feudalism to communism to capitalism , socialism 
nothing works.
why?
people PeOpLe destroy everything they can see and touch no matter what.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Misanthropy!


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Most wars are fought because of......."Hey, look what they've got...we don't have that.....let's take it!"


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

mrPPincer said:


> (My apologies if the expression of any of my views here have offended anyone, that is certainly not my intention. I usually try to steer well clear of all the drama on the forum but I guess I kinda stumbled into this one).


*mrPPincer:* no offense taken!

Thanks for the post & don't resist drama if you have something constructive/respectful to say, AND can take the heat, but if not, good idea to stay out of the kitchen! :02.47-tranquillity:

*TN:* yes, the truth hurts, but the problem is that many don't know the facts/truths, AND this we must always keep in mind before reacting/responding too strongly.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

+3 Toronto.gal the highest mark ever for saying post what you want respectfully. This gives the forum some spice and breaks up the boredom at times and you can often learn something.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Here's a good simple example of how we can all be prejudice and discriminatory without even realizing it. Of course it's human nature to tend to look for fault in others and other cultures/countries rather than ourselves, our country etc

http://www.kenilgunas.com/2012/12/day-99-kansas.html

Executive summery: A white male walking across the States is often harassed and even arrested just for being unshaven and apparently just walking where strangers rarely visit. He's annoyed by the prejudice treatment and wonders how bad it would be for a visible minority, but then catches himself acting the same way by impulse. 

It's an interesting blog I found awhile ago searching for TRP.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

andrewf said:


> Misanthropy!


:biggrin:


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