# If your TFSA is maxed at $31,000, how are you doing?



## Northof60

I am at $27,642. Not great but not bad. How are others doing???

If I was holding ETFs instead of mutuals I'm sure I'd be better. Mutuals just sold to cash now and am looking at ETF alternatives.


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## Jungle

Don't have ours maxed yet and only have 3 years of data, as of Dec 31 2012. 

Our returns are poor, with a 3 year CAGR of 2.37% (7.27% total return) for my wifes and 3.60% (11.19% total return) for mine. 

However, all of our portfolios added up returned a 3 year CAGR of 6.76%, or 21.68% total return.

In 2010, they were invested in only bonds and savings accounts. 2011 was a bad year and poorly allocated. 2012 was much better, returns were over 10%.


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## avrex

I'm at $25,222. 

I was a silly boy and had RIM stock in there and lost a few thousand in early 2011 (when I initially opened my account).
With improved security selections, over the last couple of years, I'm almost back to even. (i.e. $25,500 being 'even')

I'm a bit of a risk taker with my TFSA, with some long options thrown in there. I'm hoping to get 'tax free' capital gains.
But, as you can see, my strategy is a double-edged sword. I also subject my TFSA to potential losses, that are hard to recover from.

My RRSP is much more conservative and will constitute the majority of my nest egg when I retire.


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## Jungle

Northof60: Here is the following CAGR, depending how long you've been invested:
1 year 10.57%
2 year 5.15%
3 year 3.41%
4 year 2.54%
5 year 2.03%


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## humble_pie

a few here have advocated pursuing capital gains in tfsa & i'm in this camp. Seeking gains means taking risks, but it's the small size of a tfsa that makes it an appealing carrier for riskier stock picks. My other accounts are more conservative so they don't do quite as well as this little guy.

the tfsa holds 100% energy issues at present, although it's held other sectors in the past. i'm mildly bullish for the short term so i'll be sticking with energy for now.

book values appear high - close to market values - because the account is traded frequently, therefore holdings that increase more than 12-20% get sold out. Roughly half the cash came from such a recent sale. Cash will likely soon go back into the same stock, it's a volatile junior explorer.


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## thompsg4416

Nice work HP. 

A Volatile Jr Explorer eh.. I wonder if its the same one i'm looking to get back into

I have been using my TFSA for capital gains mainly and I've been doing ok. I only started last year in March I think, perhaps that is a good thing. 

Last year i invested 19000k. At the end of Dec I had almost 25k - Made alot of that off of SAN and CS. I have recently put in another 5k and I'm just a touch over 30k. Jan hasn't been a good month.


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## Jon_Snow

56k


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## Spudd

I only switched my TFSA from a plain old savings account to buying stocks in November 2011. I've maxed it out every year, but was just earning a few % interest prior to the end of 2011. 

It's currently sitting at $29,578 so I'm pretty happy with that. One losing position, 4 winning positions at the moment (5 if you count the 8 units of InnVest that dripped after I sold my InnVest stock). I don't want to sell those lonely InnVests because the commission would take >1/4 of the size of the entire position, and they do pay me 9% dividends per year, so why not just hang on to them.


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## PharmD

I have basically the same amount as the OP. For the first few years when the TFSA contribution room was small I used my TFSA as play money until I learned to stop playing with my money and consolidated it in my Steadyhand account. It has been sowly recovering since then and I am happy with where it is now. Never play with money, never play with money, never played with money...


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## GoldStone

33,234.17 his
34,837.27 hers

Not counting this year's 5.5K x 2, both accounts are invested in one (count it - ONE) sure-fire, can't-miss, small-cap stock. :stupid:


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## jamesbe

I only caught up with our TFSA's last year so missed the first few years of growth.

But we are at $33k for both his and hers. Mostly safe stocks like banks and such. A few big winners and others just collecting dividends and small growth.


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## humble_pie

GoldStone said:


> 33,234.17 his
> 34,837.27 hers
> 
> Not counting this year's 5.5K x 2, both accounts are invested in one (count it - ONE) sure-fire, can't-miss, small-cap stock. :stupid:


goldstone you're not allowed by your own rules, remember. U are the uber-indexer, the ultimate couch potato, the boy who's more allergic to stocks than some kids are to peanuts, remember.

owning even a large lumbering old behemoth stock like bce is contrary to your religion, imams gonna get u for this blasphemy each:


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## Toronto.gal

humble_pie said:


> a few here have advocated pursuing capital gains in tfsa & i'm in this camp. Seeking gains means taking risks, but it's the small size of a tfsa that makes it an appealing carrier for riskier stock picks. My other accounts are more conservative so they don't do quite as well as this little guy.
> 
> the tfsa holds 100% energy issues at present, although it's held other sectors in the past. i'm mildly bullish for the short term so i'll be sticking with energy for now.
> 
> book values appear high - close to market values - because the account is traded frequently, therefore holdings that increase more than 12-20% get sold out. Roughly half the cash came from such a recent sale. Cash will likely soon go back into the same stock, it's a volatile junior explorer.


Tu es simplement génial mon amie! :encouragement:

Someone said here that jr. exploration companies were 'stupid'?! 

Post #12= +1.


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## Sampson

Congrats pie. But alas, 70% of that account is in CPG and other. Were most of the gains produced with the jr.s and then moved into the stalwarts?

At least we know you are consistent with your other posts. This is an interesting slice, probably can trace back through all your posts and get more insight into these specific activities.

Salut!


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## dogleg

humble_pie said:


> goldstone you're not allowed by your own rules, remember. U are the uber-indexer, the ultimate couch potato, the boy who's more allergic to stocks than some kids are to peanuts, remember.
> 
> owning even a large lumbering old behemoth stock like bce is contrary to your religion, imams gonna get u for this blasphemy each:


Wow ,looks like GoldStone hit the jackpot on one or two good ones. Congrats. Maybe he hit one like I did in '08 (GXS) went from pennies to $19. in just a few weeks. Now it is an 'eternal dog'.


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## humble_pie

nah going from 25.5k to 33.2k over 4 years is nice but it's not hitting the jackpot.

going from 25.5k to 34.8k over 4 years is nicer but still not hitting the jackpot.

i'd have to see screen shots of this romance about only-one-sure-fire-can't-miss-stupid-stock to believe it. Otherwise i'm sticking to my knitting which says he's pulling the wool over our eyes.
.


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## dogleg

Neat Picture.Is there no privacy left anywhere? If one stock amongst many delivered that overall yield it must have been a good one.


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## humble_pie

dogleg u have a nice name

but he is pulling it

yr leg i mean
.


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## none

I'm at $27,000. I just put in 20,000 last year and another 5500 on Jan 3rd. I've had it all in an ING Direct streetwise index fund. I'll be moving it into a larger cash potato next month.

I'm pretty happy with how it has done.


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## kaleb0

My TFSA is at $26,900.16, definitely envious of some of the returns I've seen in this thread - congrats to you all.. I'm still learning though, and I'm happy that I've managed to make any gains at all.


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## pwm

Mine are $34,000 each. Same holdings in each TFSA. (Mine & spouse).


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## Jungle

If I was to fill mine with the maximum right now, mine would be $27,015, wife's $27,715.


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## namelessone

$31051, if I add cash for the unused room. 
I started investing in 2007 with $1000, made a couple mistakes along the way. e.g. MFC.TO, YLO.TO, S.to,DRX.TO


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## mind_business

For the last 17 months, we've contributed $1250 per month into my TFSA and my Wife's TFSA. Total contributed = $21250 each with current value = $23688 each account. All contributions have gone into the RBC Canadian Dividend Fund. Once I'm max'd out for 2013, I will be moving our TFSA's to my brokerage account, and purchase an ETF.

We will be caught up with all our contributions by April 1st.


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## Mall Guy

$31,015, with this years contribution still in cash. Just came back above water on ZBW and bailed faster than a Titanic survivor . . . treat my TSFA as the conservative side of my saving, much more aggressive in my RRSP . . .TFSA is mostly bank preferred shares, a bond fund, and a small amount of a REIT . . . need to revisit, because it doesn't produce enough cash flow to pay the trading fees to keep the dividends invested all the time . . . it feels lazy to me !


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## Eder

$41401 as of yesterday...50% long term bonds lol.


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## GoldStone

humble_pie said:


> goldstone you're not allowed by your own rules, remember. U are the uber-indexer, the ultimate couch potato, the boy who's more allergic to stocks than some kids are to peanuts, remember.


Ah, you think you know all of our rules. But you don't. That's ok, I'm more than happy to spread the Knowledge.  

Couch potato investors freely admit that indexing is boring. Many indexers have an itch to try stock picking. It's only human to try and be above average.

One of our rules says that it's okay to have a free-for-all, play money account. Micro-cap speculation, market timing, junior oil operation in Kurdistan, anything goes.

This rule goes all the way back to John Bogle's The Little Book of Common Sense Investing. Bogle suggested that index investors who are fascinated by the markets should split their portfolios into Serious Money Account (95%) and Funny Money Account (5%). He recommended that investors should track relative performance of the two accounts, to see if Funny Money can beat Serious Money after fees and taxes.

Of course, Bogle's 5% is just a guideline. I happen to think that up to 10% in play money account is fine.

... and that's how my TFSA small-cap gambling came to be. It's a Play Money Account.

(btw, I use "gambling" in a self-deprecating manner. I researched the stock to death before I invested. I made the big bet after I saw a massive spike in insider buying.)



humble_pie said:


> owning even a large lumbering old behemoth stock like bce is contrary to your religion, imams gonna get u for this blasphemy each:


1. Hey, it's not a religion. It's a science club! All rules are evidence-based. No blind faith is required. :encouragement:
2. You will be surprised... I happen to own BCE. It's part of my "Dogs of the TSX" experiment. :biggrin:


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## Sampson

GoldStone said:


> 1. Hey, it's not a religion. It's a science club! All rules are evidence-based. No blind faith is required. :encouragement:
> 2. You will be surprised... I happen to own BCE. It's part of my "Dogs of the TSX" experiment. :biggrin:


There's lots of evidence that your point 2 does not work and previous 'studies' that demonstrate a dogs effect suffered from data mining.


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## Ethan

$36,514.59

There are some significant portfolios in here, well done!


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## GoldStone

Sampson said:


> There's lots of evidence that your point 2 does not work and previous 'studies' that demonstrate a dogs effect suffered from survivorship bias.


I suspect you are referring to US studies. Can you point me to Canadian studies that examined "Beat the TSX" results? Feel free to do it here...

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/8432-Beating-the-TSX-(David-Stanley)

... so this thread can stay on track.

BTW, beating the index would be nice but it's not my main goal. I plan to keep dividend payers when they fall out of the Dogs screen. My goals are:
1. Position my unregistered portfolio for dividend income generation. I hope to retire within 10 years.
2. Unbundle ETF costs. As low as they are, I see no need to pay someone to hold top Canadian names for me.


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## Islenska

Have had some dogs, so at about $52,000 for 2

Still a neat plan that provides some pin money along the way...


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## feetfats

Today it's at $26,578.30 

I only maxed it out about 2 months ago. I had about $16,000 invested in it for many years and took some major beatings on a series of similar bad moves. I was down to about $8000 in 2011. I made some serious corrections to my strategy and so far it's working. I currently have about $5,300 in cash in the account waiting to deploy when the time is right.

The TFSA is a fun way to have a sort of competition/comparison because it levels the playing field for how much you can have invested.


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## Dibs

My TFSA is at $25,438 from $25,500 invested. I made some bad moves last year. Grats on those who saw good returns so far!


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## dogleg

Humble: Now I'll take those legs over any 'dogleg' any day. Yes I think you are right Humble, there is a lot of leg-pulling on these forums. Some of these 'gains' border on fiction in my opinion.


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## humble_pie

GoldStone said:


> Couch potato investors freely admit that indexing is boring. Many indexers have an itch to try stock picking. It's only human to try and be above average.
> 
> One of our rules says that it's okay to have a free-for-all, play money account. Micro-cap speculation, market timing, junior oil operation in Kurdistan, anything goes



look at this. Goldstone says he's a secret infidel. He talks the religion but he's really just a preacher in bed w the church secretary.

gold there's no need to try any more, you have definitively proved it. Your tfsa since 2009 far outstrips any indexed account you ever held over the same period, right ?

please carry on. It's lovely to see the index battalions start to crumble & flee the field.

(signed)
plains of abraham cookie


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## dogleg

I can't help myself! I must respond to both comments. Very Clever. Regarding some of the 'gains' people state on forums in general I am an eternal cynic. I spend some time on Stockhouse over mining stocks I trade. There was one guy who presented himself as a super-trader who always made a bundle and always signed off ,"laid back and rich". Somebody made it their business to check him out, evidently all his stocks were 'ghosts' and he was on welfare in a trailer park. Go figure. Now if that church secretary is the person in the picture you posted - go Goldstone!


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## Eder

dogleg said:


> Humble: Now I'll take those legs over any 'dogleg' any day. Yes I think you are right Humble, there is a lot of leg-pulling on these forums. Some of these 'gains' border on fiction in my opinion.


If it becomes worthwhile to me I can provide proof...say $250 into escrow and I'll donate it to charity after?


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## chantl01

My TFSA is at $29275 with the last $3500 still holding in cash looking for buying opportunities. I'm invested in dividend payers, so I tend to accumulate the dividend payouts and combine them with contributions for cash on hand when there are buying opportunities. I'm holding about 15 separate stocks in my TFSA at the moment, so no really big positions in anything. I'm still very much in the learning mode about buying individual stocks. My RRSP is pure couch potato.


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## humble_pie

dog how could u doubt me ? i posted the account pic after all - so far i'm the only one who did.

eder - pic ? you're in 3rd, but we should check out front runner lance armstrong snow, make sure he's running the Tour de Teffsa clean.
.


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## Ethan




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## Ethan

humble_pie said:


> i posted the account pic after all - so far i'm the only one who did.


I can't see your account photo, I just get a FLICKR message of "this video or image is currently unavailable." Is anyone else getting this?


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## Daenerys Targaryen

Ethan that is what I see as well


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## Jon_Snow

Probably should have mentioned that my 56k is between my wifey and I. :biggrin:


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## Belguy

How much sense does it make for a 70 year old to open a TFSA? If I did, I would probably just invest it in ZRE as recommended in the current issue of MoneySense.

http://www.etfs.bmo.com/bmo-etfs/performance?fundId=80001

Current yield is 5.36%.

Thoughts?


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## OhGreatGuru

Belguy said:


> How much sense does it make for a 70 year old to open a TFSA?...


If the 70-yr. old would otherwise have investments with taxable earnings, it makes sense. TFSA's are for every age - only the asset allocation changes.


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## DanFo

mine's about 28500 ....i only had 8000 in equities for the last year before that everything was in TFSA's and gic's


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## humble_pie

ethan perhaps it's an issue w your browser ?

pic still displays fine to me & to others, according to the posts.

pic shows my tfsa w a market value of $45,165.87, putting the pie in front of the Tour de Teffsa at the moment, now that lance armstrong snow has confessed he was doping, ie his total was for 2 teffs, not just his own.

eder is 2nd & yourself (i think) 3rd in this year's post-new-year's Tour de Teffsa. Harsh january winter conditions in the mountains plus a brand-new cash contribution encumber all runners in this race, but at least everybody has the same handicap.

an obvious rule of the Tour de Teffsa is that entrants can only claim their own personal tfsa. There's no such thing as a spousal tfsa. No doping allowed.

toronto.gal's message upthread reproduced my tfsa pic, maybe your browser will show her quote.

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...-are-you-doing?p=166527&viewfull=1#post166527


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## Plugging Along

Ethan said:


> I can't see your account photo, I just get a FLICKR message of "this video or image is currently unavailable." Is anyone else getting this?


Me too... I get it on all three of my devices, so I dunno


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## Ethan

humble_pie said:


> ethan perhaps it's an issue w your browser ?
> 
> pic still displays fine to me & to others, according to the posts.
> 
> pic shows my tfsa w a market value of $45,165.87


Still can't see it, regardless, I have no reason to doubt you, mostly curious as to the balance in your holdings. $45k is an impressive balance.


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## Northof60

Great to see all the reponses. Some of you are doing great....

I was reading a TFSA article by Gordon Powers today. see the link. I had to shake my head when he came up with a "practical example" of someone passing away with a TFSA.

It says...."at the time of his death, his TFSA was worth $60,000." What percentage of Canadians have turned their TFSA into 60K? 

http://money.ca.msn.com/tfsa/insight/common-tfsa-mistakes


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## LOST

$36,700 One stock. Good ole dividend payer that I had faith in from day one and dripped from the start. Recently sold and looking for another stock to deploy in. Want to guess? I wouldn't tell anyway because
I believe it jinxes you. It does me.


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## james4beach

Belguy said:


> How much sense does it make for a 70 year old to open a TFSA? If I did, I would probably just invest it in ZRE as recommended in the current issue of MoneySense.
> 
> http://www.etfs.bmo.com/bmo-etfs/performance?fundId=80001
> 
> Current yield is 5.36%.
> 
> Thoughts?


That's before the MER. Net of MER, you'd get a dividend yield of 4.74%


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## DavidJD

Mine is at $48,771.71
Wife's is at $40,423.56

Goal is to break $50k each by end of year


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## Sampson

You all remember when these accounts were first announced?

And people were saying that the amounts were so small they would be insignificant...


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## dogleg

Ethan said:


> I can't see your account photo, I just get a FLICKR message of "this video or image is currently unavailable." Is anyone else getting this?


I notice Torontogal posted Humble's chart with numbers but not the stock names. Are they secret?


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## CanadianCapitalist

Sampson said:


> And people were saying that the amounts were so small they would be insignificant...


Yep. I remember that. Just five years later, a couple would have $51K in contribution room alone. At a 3% dividend yield and 20% dividend tax, that's a tax saving of $306. There's probably another PV of $300 or so in tax savings on capital gains when the investments are eventually disposed. Sweet!


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## Four Pillars

Sampson said:


> You all remember when these accounts were first announced?
> 
> And people were saying that the amounts were so small they would be insignificant...


Well, they were - $5k in the first year isn't much. And I would argue they are still pretty small compared to RRSPs for someone who has been working for a while.

But over time the contribution room has grown to a number that is more meaningful.

However, the total contribution room per person right now is a max of $25,500. If that person made say $65,000 per year over that same time, they would have accrued $58,500 of RRSP contribution room which is more than twice the TFSA room.


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## Money4life

Four Pillars said:


> If that person made say $65,000 per year over that same time, they would have accrued $58,500 of RRSP contribution room which is more than twice the TFSA room.


This actually makes me a little sick. No wonder the rich is always getting richer. I know that getting huge RRSP room is a great motivator for finding a high paying job but sometimes it's just not that easy. I lucked out with the job that I got fresh out of school. Had I been in the graduating class the following year, I would have had trouble finding a job and would probably settle for a much lower paying job. Yeah, you could say to go back to school and study in a field where there are more higher paying jobs but it's easier said than done when someone graduates with $15,000 in student loans (like what happened to me). Luckily, I was able to pay it off as quickly as possible with the job that I got but regardless, once you find that high paying/stable job, you're forever laughing all the way to the bank.


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## HaroldCrump

Money4life said:


> This actually makes me a little sick. No wonder the rich is always getting richer.


TFSA and RRSP programs _make you sick_?
What would you like the govt. to do?
Abolish both the programs and raise taxes another 30% so that hard-working middle class people have no hope in hell to ever get "rich"?



> I lucked out with the job that I got fresh out of school.


So it turned out ok for you, yeah?
What are you complaining about then?


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## Money4life

HaroldCrump said:


> TFSA and RRSP programs _make you sick_?
> What would you like the govt. to do?
> Abolish both the programs and raise taxes another 30% so that hard-working middle class people have no hope in hell to ever get "rich"?
> 
> So it turned out ok for you, yeah?
> What are you complaining about then?


They're both great programs. The only thing that can be upsetting is how RRSP room is completely driven by earned income (unlike TFSAs). I'm sure there's a lot of people who would love to contribute more of their savings to RRSPs instead of other means but cannot do so because they didn't make enough earned income in the year.


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## jamesbe

The other issue with TFSA is that room starts when you are 18. Not really fair to those in their later years who will only get a small maximum, while the younger folks will have huge amounts of space to hide money later in life.


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## Money4life

jamesbe said:


> The other issue with TFSA is that room starts when you are 18. Not really fair to those in their later years who will only get a small maximum, while the younger folks will have huge amounts of space to hide money later in life.


Agreed. Both programs definitely have advantages and disadvantages to some people.


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## CanadianCapitalist

Four Pillars said:


> However, the total contribution room per person right now is a max of $25,500. If that person made say $65,000 per year over that same time, they would have accrued $58,500 of RRSP contribution room which is more than twice the TFSA room.


The comparison is not accurate. RRSP contribution room is pre-tax. TFSA contribution room is after-tax. Assuming a 30 percent tax rate, the $25,500 TFSA room is equivalent to $36,500 RRSP room.


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## Sampson

The fact that the RRSP program already existed and was designed based on average incomes, 18% savings rate, and what 30-35 year duration isn't necessarily advantaging high income earners. What is happening is that their large income tax burden on higher income earnings is being mitigated, so the tax system would become less progressive.

I think what is interesting about the TFSA and both accounts in general is now there are varied options (and let's be honest), $5000 per year for an average Canadian is more than they save, and over 30-35 years, this would still allow adequate retirement savings with the added flexibility of the accounts.

I'm not a 1%er, but our family has a high savings rate, so both accounts are fantabulous!


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## Four Pillars

Money4life said:


> I'm sure there's a lot of people who would love to contribute more of their savings to RRSPs instead of other means but cannot do so because they didn't make enough earned income in the year.


You aren't making a lot of sense. 

The RRSP doesn't usually help lower income folks and can often backfire. The only people who want to contribute more money to their RRSP and can't because of limits are people who make higher incomes. Which goes against what I think you said before.


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## Money4life

CanadianCapitalist said:


> The comparison is not accurate. RRSP contribution room is pre-tax. TFSA contribution room is after-tax. Assuming a 30 percent tax rate, the $25,500 TFSA room is equivalent to $36,500 RRSP room.


Okay. That's not so bad then.


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## CanadianCapitalist

Money4life said:


> They're both great programs. The only thing that can be upsetting is how RRSP room is completely driven by earned income (unlike TFSAs).


Why does it upset you that RRSP room increases with salary up to a certain point. It seems fair in my view. If I earned a low income, income from Govt. sources will make up a large proportion of my income. A higher income earner has to save up in a RRSP if they want to maintain their standard of living in retirement because their shortfall is larger. And who do you think actually foots the bill for transfer payments? Yep, the higher income earners. Seems to be more or less a fair bargain to me.


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## Plugging Along

Money4life said:


> This actually makes me a little sick. No wonder the rich is always getting richer. I know that getting huge RRSP room is a great motivator for finding a high paying job but sometimes it's just not that easy. I lucked out with the job that I got fresh out of school. Had I been in the graduating class the following year, I would have had trouble finding a job and would probably settle for a much lower paying job. Yeah, you could say to go back to school and study in a field where there are more higher paying jobs but it's easier said than done when someone graduates with $15,000 in student loans (like what happened to me). Luckily, I was able to pay it off as quickly as possible with the job that I got but regardless, once you find that high paying/stable job, you're forever laughing all the way to the bank.


As you said, finding a higher income, or going back to school is hard... so those people who do manage to find they higher paying job, they should be rewarded. Don't forget there is a cap in how much one can contribute, it's not just 18%, but there is also a max. 

Before people start complaining about the rich (which apparently here may be as low as $65K a year), it is the rich that pay most of the tax in terms of absolute dollar amount. 



Money4life said:


> They're both great programs. The only thing that can be upsetting is how RRSP room is completely driven by earned income (unlike TFSAs). I'm sure there's a lot of people who would love to contribute more of their savings to RRSPs instead of other means but cannot do so because they didn't make enough earned income in the year.



If a person is a lower income, and they max out their RRSP, then there is the TSFA. As I said, there is a max on the RRSP contributions for higher incomes. 

Here's the thing, most people do not max out both their RRSP and TFSA regardless of income. Even if you provided more room for those lower income earners, they would still complain that they don't have the money to contribute, and sayit's for the rich anyways. I heard the same complaints on the TSFA that low income earners had less of an ability to contribute the $5k as high income. 

'Fairness' is really in the eye of the beholder.


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## HaroldCrump

Money4life said:


> I'm sure there's a lot of people who would love to contribute more of their savings to RRSPs instead of other means but cannot do so because they didn't make enough earned income in the year.


RRSP is based on an 18% savings rate.
Any amount of earned income will create RRSP room - you don't need to earn a "high" income to have RRSP room.

It is true that those with very low incomes (subsistence level incomes) are not able to save 18% (or even 10%) of their income.
However, in that case, _any_ type of investment account is irrelevant to them (tax sheltered or not).

Furthermore, such individual, upon retirement will most likely depend exclusively on GIS and OAS for their retirement income needs - both programs, ironically, funded by the general tax revenues from RRSP withdrawals and other "high" incomes.

Don't kill the goose that lays golden eggs :biggrin:


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## Money4life

I was more of-putted by the $58,500 amount of potential available RRSP room that Four Pillars originally mentioned. If it's just $36,500 as what CC said, then I have no qualms. Sampson also made a good point about the RRSP program being designed based on average incomes of 18% savings rate. Makes sense to me now.

Nothing to complain about now that I have some more facts.


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## Money4life

HaroldCrump said:


> RRSP is based on an 18% savings rate.
> Any amount of earned income will create RRSP room - you don't need to earn a "high" income to have RRSP room.
> 
> It is true that those with very low incomes (subsistence level incomes) are not able to save 18% (or even 10%) of their income.
> However, in that case, _any_ type of investment account is irrelevant to them (tax sheltered or not).
> 
> Furthermore, such individual, upon retirement will most likely depend exclusively on GIS and OAS for their retirement income needs - both programs, ironically, funded by the general tax revenues from RRSP withdrawals and other "high" incomes.
> 
> Don't kill the goose that lays golden eggs :biggrin:


Thanks for the clarity.


----------



## Eclectic12

Money4life said:


> This actually makes me a little sick. No wonder the rich is always getting richer.
> 
> I know that getting huge RRSP room is a great motivator for finding a high paying job but sometimes it's just not that easy ...


If that makes you sick, what about prior to 1972 when there was no capital gains tax? 

Any one with the money to get a good money manager and had money for stocks made out well!


As for needing a higher paying job ... IMO, it's more about attitude & financial savvy. Those who know about it tend to make sacrifices so that they start early. 




Money4life said:


> ... The only thing that can be upsetting is how RRSP room is completely driven by earned income (unlike TFSAs). I'm sure there's a lot of people who would love to contribute more of their savings to RRSPs instead of other means but cannot do so because they didn't make enough earned income in the year.


Then too ... for those of us in DB pensions, one of the slides presented by an actuary stated that the gov't overstates the pension benefit until about age 50 and then understates it after that. Since the benefit drives the pension adjustment (PA), the implication is that more RRSP contribution is being used up by the PA than necessary.


Cheers


----------



## humble_pie

dogleg said:


> I notice Torontogal posted Humble's chart with numbers but not the stock names. Are they secret?


no, not secret, i already mentioned everything is energy at present. Last year i had half energy, half a small hi-yielding quebec REIT (btb.un); but i sold this reit for a nice profit some time ago.

in my pic, the big holding is CPG. Those little things are short calls against cpg.

the other 3 are emerging oil explorers & i've written about them copiously under their own threads in Individual Equities section, so no use repeating.

of the 3, the only one in play at the moment is western zagros. It's interesting because it holds a giant oil reservoir in kurdistan, yet so far the geos & the engineers have not been able to figure out how to get the oil to flow. However, in time they will. The reservoir is too valuable to be let go.

the WZR challenge means that the share price is extremely volatile. It's a good candidate for toronto.gal's fast-trading strategy, so that's what i'm doing at present.

africa oil - the 8k job - is moving too but at a much more decorous pace. At $8 & change, AOI share price is far above the 1.82 it traded at when i first began buying this stock 10 months ago.


----------



## Money4life

Plugging Along said:


> As you said, finding a higher income, or going back to school is hard... so those people who do manage to find they higher paying job, they should be rewarded. Don't forget there is a cap in how much one can contribute, it's not just 18%, but there is also a max.
> 
> Before people start complaining about the rich (which apparently here may be as low as $65K a year), it is the rich that pay most of the tax in terms of absolute dollar amount.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If a person is a lower income, and they max out their RRSP, then there is the TSFA. As I said, there is a max on the RRSP contributions for higher incomes.
> 
> Here's the thing, most people do not max out both their RRSP and TFSA regardless of income. Even if you provided more room for those lower income earners, they would still complain that they don't have the money to contribute, and sayit's for the rich anyways. I heard the same complaints on the TSFA that low income earners had less of an ability to contribute the $5k as high income.
> 
> 'Fairness' is really in the eye of the beholder.


All good points. I'm getting a good finance lesson today. This is why I joined this forum. Thanks for this.


----------



## Eclectic12

Plugging Along said:


> ... , there is a max on the RRSP contributions for higher incomes ...


Then too - if one is a high enough earner and is in a defined benefit pension plan, the pension adjustment (PA) can be wiping out the entire 18% of RRSP room being earned.


Cheers


----------



## Money4life

Eclectic12 said:


> If that makes you sick, what about prior to 1972 when there was no capital gains tax?
> 
> Any one with the money to get a good money manager and had money for stocks made out well!


That is much, much worse! I agree and understand your other points as well.


----------



## Plugging Along

Eclectic12 said:


> Then too - if one is a high enough earner and is in a defined benefit pension plan, the pension adjustment (PA) can be wiping out the entire 18% of RRSP room being earned.
> 
> 
> Cheers


Absolutely true... I am actually in this position right now. I am not complaining by any means, as I look at it that I'm in a fortunate position of a DB and higher income. I won't complain at that fact that I will mostly likely never get the full benefits of the DB because I will most likely not stay in my corporation for a long period either. That's my choice.

I think people forget that many of our life situations are a result of choices that we have made in our past either directly or indirectly. If everyone had the same information available, then one cannot call not fair.


----------



## humble_pie

wondering why is this thread being turned into yet another rrsp/employment thread. There are already plenty of those.

i am surprised to hear from brokers who are in the demographic that one would expect to be ramping up rrsp - ie they're in their 30s, finally earning decent pay, married, small children, home mortgage ...

but they say their priority is maxing the tfsa.


----------



## Money4life

To get back on topic, I actually have two different tax free savings accounts (which is probably something that I need to address).

In my first bank, I have around 18K in the CDN Index - E series....and another $7K in CDN Bond Index - E Series.

In my second bank, I have just shy of 3K in a normal TFSA account with 2.55% interest. I created this account thinking this would be for my emergency funds but I feel it might be a waste to use a TFSA as an emergency fund. In addition, since there's only about 3K in there, there isn't a whole lot of compounding going on!

Who thinks that I should move all or most of this money over to my Canadian Index Fund? Only problem is that I set up my 3K account in July of last year meaning that if I move this money over to a different bank, I will be charged $50 for moving it before a year has passed...AND I will be charged an additional $50 if I decided to completely close the account.

Thoughts?


I actually have a total of $28,160 in my combined TFSAs. Not bad considering from late 2010 to mid 2012, I only had mutual funds with extremely high MERs.


----------



## GoldStone

Eclectic12 said:


> Then too - if one is a high enough earner and is in a defined benefit pension plan, the pension adjustment (PA) can be wiping out the entire 18% of RRSP room being earned.


This is only fair. The whole purpose of the RRSP program is to give private sector workers who don't have DB pensions an opportunity to save a retirement fund that is roughly equivalent to a DB pension. RRSP contribution rules and PA rules were specifically designed to make the two programs (RRSP vs. DB) equitable.


----------



## humble_pie

Money4life said:


> ... Thoughts ?



ottomh - leave the 3k where they are if you can move these funds without fee or penalty in july or thereafter.

3k in ready-cash-emergency-fund tfsa at 2.55% sounds fine for somebody who complains a lot even though he already has 25k very nicely & more permanently invested each:


----------



## humble_pie

GoldStone said:


> This is only fair. The whole purpose of the RRSP program is to give private sector workers who don't have DB pensions an opportunity to save a retirement fund that is roughly equivalent to a DB pension. RRSP contribution rules and PA rules were specifically designed to make the two programs (RRSP vs. DB) equitable.



can U believe it ! the philandering preacher wants to keep talking a whole pile of rubble about retirement-plans-plus-DB-benefits-plus-private-sector-equivalencies in order to keep that church secretary hidden under the bedsheets ...


----------



## Money4life

humble_pie said:


> ottomh - leave the 3k where they are if you can move these funds without fee or penalty in july or thereafter.
> 
> 3k in ready-cash-emergency-fund tfsa at 2.55% sounds fine for somebody who complains a lot even though he already has 25k very nicely & more permanently invested each:


:neglected: My bad if I'm coming off as being annoying or a complainer. I really do have good intentions and appreciate everything that you guys bring to this forum. I'm now a frequent visitor! :biggrin:


----------



## Sampson

Yeah, sorry pie. I was just thinking we really changed the thread discussion. I was just surprised everyone had such good numbers.

Mine: $34,876.61
Hers: $30,198.39

Both fairly heavily weighted in REITS.


----------



## humble_pie

Money4life said:


> :neglected:


actually you sound lovely, just like one of my kids.

reason i thought to avoid the $50 fee is that 3k moved to the canadian index fund now might not even earn $50 between now & july, which will be here before u know it


----------



## loggedout

I'm lazy. I haven't transferred money into mine for this year. I haven't even invested the previous year's amount, as it's just sitting in my trading account, but at least it's in a HISA.

Value right now is 22500, so add 5500 when I do put it in, and it's 28000, I guess.


----------



## nathan79

Just topped up with this year's contribution. Currently valued at $26,872... not invested very aggressively.


----------



## GoldStone

humble_pie said:


> can U believe it ! ...


pie, what part of Serious Money Account (95%) + Play Money Account (5%) do you not understand?

Do you want me to draw you... a pie diagram? each:


----------



## ranbam

Mine is just a tad under $30K.


----------



## Sampson

Congrats on large portfolio GS, a mere $1.4M.


----------



## GoldStone

Sampson... not quite there yet. Those percentages are from John Bogle's book (The Little Book of Common Sense Investing). I'm less conservative than Bogle. I think up to 10% in play account is fine, if you do it intelligently (i.e. not speculating outright).


----------



## Ihatetaxes

Mine $27,129.
Hers $26,589

A few good moves cancelled by a few bad moves = mediocre gains but at least above water. Now sitting on too much cash waiting to deploy.


----------



## CanadianCapitalist

MoneySense is looking for TFSA investors who have grown their account to $30,000, $40,000 or even more. There must be quite a few members here who are well past $40K. Details:

If you’re a successful TFSA investor, we’d love it if you shared your story with our readers. Just drop us a line at [email protected] or call 416-764-1435. Let us know how much you have in your TFSA and what you did to get there.


----------



## My Own Advisor

I can't wait to read what some folks have done with their TFSA in the MoneySense article. Holding FTS and some telcos in mine, so not as high as I would have liked and remain just under $30k. I'm sure some folks are well north of $40k, which is great and kudos to them on some great calls.


----------



## jamesbe

I'm at $35,500 and that doesn't include the dividends that I pulled out, so I'm at about $37,000.

Crazy thing is I only put the money in last year!


----------



## yyz

Mine $40100
Hers $48200

Guess I like my wife better than me!


----------



## blin10

to me it's useless imo so 0...


----------



## yyz

blin10
Why would you consider it useless?I think the TFSA is actually one of the greatest things especially for people like me who have no workplace pension.To me that will become my pension when I retire and withdraw the dividends that come in.


----------



## bettyboop

Mine is more of an example of what not to do.
19,500

Excuse me while I go cry.


----------



## CanadianCapitalist

blin10 said:


> to me it's useless imo so 0...


Can you expand on that?


----------



## CadMan

Well, this is a depressing thread for me. Our numbers (based on the full $25,500 contribution) are:

His: $21,651
Hers: $17,935

Most (or all) of the losses come from one junior O&G stock that was actually flying quite high early on (I had a 450% return on it at one point), but it has subsequently crashed and will likely never recover. I should probably sell some or all of it and move on, but it is tough to lock in losses.

I've subsequently changed approaches and have focused on ETFs, blue chips and cash with the more recent contributions.


----------



## Spudd

Mine is lurking right around the 25.5k mark now. I was up closer to 29, but then I put a lot of it into an REIT ETF in May, right before the whole bond/REIT crash. Bad timing.


----------



## humble_pie

CanadianCapitalist said:


> MoneySense is looking for TFSA investors who have grown their account to $30,000, $40,000 or even more. There must be quite a few members here who are well past $40K. Details:
> 
> If you’re a successful TFSA investor, we’d love it if you shared your story with our readers. Just drop us a line at [email protected] or call 416-764-1435. Let us know how much you have in your TFSA and what you did to get there.



i thought the nat post just wrote the book on TFSA winners?

reply at your own risk esp if u did the early swapping 2-step (now outlawed) or bought non-eligible securities in the pink sheets each:


----------



## Sampson

humble_pie said:


> i thought the nat post just wrote the book on TFSA winners?
> 
> reply at your own risk esp if u did the early swapping 2-step (now outlawed) or bought non-eligible securities in the pink sheets each:


That was my reaction also. Closing loop holes....


----------



## gibor365

yyz said:


> Mine $40100
> Hers $48200
> 
> Guess I like my wife better than me!


wow! 90% and 60% gains?! very impressive.... where did you invest?


----------



## Jon_Snow

I am in charge of investments in our TFSA's (wife an I). Her's is at 28k, mine at 27k. Mine is a bit REIT heavy, and although I bought mine after the big REIT correction, they continue to languish a bit.

I made a few speculative moves in wife's account, such as buying TECK at $21. :encouragement:


----------



## james4beach

$25,601 based on max contributions, entirely GICs & bonds

For those of you with losses... don't feel too bad. I'm sure there are many more people with losses, you're just not likely to see it plastered all over the forums and media.


----------



## humble_pie

Sampson said:


> That was my reaction also. Closing loop holes....



sampson are u serious? u think they're on a sweep, persuading media to flush out loop holes? i didn't think they were that smart ...


----------



## gibor365

Both out TFSAs are the worst performing accounts from 6 we have. I started with GICs, than moved to MF, than about 2.3 years ago started to buy equities. Currently all equites are from TSX, many REIT , Utilities - maybe this is explains underperforming.
Currently my TFSA at $29,649 (16% gain) , my wife's at $25,291 (1% loss), combined 7.7% gain.
My wife's TFSA has a crazy moves: 
2010 gain 43% (mostly because i was holding PALL), 2011 loss 20%, 2012 gain 8%, YTD - flat.
Mine TFSA:
2010 gain 25%, 2011 gain 0.5%, 2012 gain 7%, YTD gain 3.3%


----------



## yyz

gibor said:


> wow! 90% and 60% gains?! very impressive.... where did you invest?


Currently we have MFC ,CPG,REI,PGF,CRR.UN .At one time we both had Ford in there and the wife's held Bank of America both of which were bought low and sold at a nice profit.
Don't get me wrong I also have some losers in there (like UUU,DNT,ELR) but I am a big fan now of dividend paying stocks.Also DRIP the PGF for now and will until we retire and I want the dividends as income.The rest of the dividends for now come as cash so I can redepoly it if I see an opportunity.Plus I'm waiting for UUU to close the going private transaction so that along with any cash accumulating will go into either IPL or BNS .There have been a few years of great returns on financials like Manulife and other sectors like automotive like Ford which have helped alot.The TFSA's are my 2 best performing accounts out of 6.I am still learning as I go and have a few stricter rules now on where to put money to work.But like I said ,my plan is to have dividends help pay for the retirement and when I retire as I remove the cash from them,will take money out of the RRSP (basic minimum amount to avoid tax) and replenish the TFSA accounts.
The TFSA in my opinion is one of the best saving vehicles ever ,especially for someone who doesn't have a company pension.


----------



## Sampson

humble_pie said:


> sampson are u serious? u think they're on a sweep, persuading media to flush out loop holes? i didn't think they were that smart ...


I don't actually think they are doing this now, BUT, if a government ever needs to find some more tax revenues, these types of posts and interviews surely form the basis for ways to add $. I'm sure there are people in senior management at the CRA that read MoneySense or other, and if their boss needs some ideas...


----------



## Sampson

I like the updates to this thread though.

It would be interesting to poll CMFers on TFSA strategies and returns. For the most part, we are an educated investing folk, I'm certain our returns on average are exactly that, average.

Perhaps we need an aggregate CMFer stock pickers index (an options traders bundled in also), see how that performs.


----------



## humble_pie

Sampson said:


> It would be interesting to poll CMFers on TFSA strategies and returns. For the most part, we are an educated investing folk, I'm certain our returns on average are exactly that, average



why would you be so certain about average, though.

in january - when folks were mostly posting - there were 2 screenshots. Both tfsas were far above average. One was 45k, the other was 40k. That was january, this is now. My tfsa is doing better now, it was one of the 2 screenshots.


----------



## Sampson

humble_pie said:


> why would you be so certain about average, though.


just a hunch... every once and a while people have stories of trades or strategies (home runs only in the TFSA) gone wrong. I guess that's why I'm curious. I know your accounts have been doing well, mine are what I consider above average also. Could be, hopefully, everybody is doing well.

If that's the case, we should pool our resources and get Ethan his fund using the CMFer's strategy.


----------



## My Own Advisor

@Sampson,

I like your idea about a CMFers stock picking index. A CMF ETF if you will.


----------



## andrewf

humble_pie said:


> why would you be so certain about average, though.
> 
> in january - when folks were mostly posting - there were 2 screenshots. Both tfsas were far above average. One was 45k, the other was 40k. That was january, this is now. My tfsa is doing better now, it was one of the 2 screenshots.


I don't understand your point. Those doing better than average are likelier to report their results, no?


----------



## feetfats

2013 was pretty good to my TFSA in comparison to years previous. At the beginning of the year I was at about $26,500 and maxed out (didn't make any money because of some very poor investments that killed the profits of good ones, but was at least back at par).

Now I am at about $29,500 not including my 2014 contribution.
I made ~$950 in dividends during 2013


----------



## gibor365

feetfats said:


> Now I am at about $29,500 not including my 2014 contribution.
> I made ~$950 in dividends during 2013


Our TFSAs were the worst performers in 2013, mostly because I hold there majority of REITs and utilities, still both TFSAs gave about 8.8% gains in 2013, dividends 1181.66 and 1430.92.
In 2014 I'm allocating big chunk of TFSA contribution to 3% Peoples Trust TFSAs, better than any GIC


----------



## Synergy

^ Same here, TFSA worst performer for the year (2013) - holding mostly REITs. No complaints though - overall portfolio did just fine! I don't think you have to worry about the average Canadian making millions in their TFSA. It would be interesting to see the stats on how many Canadian actually have a TFSA account.


----------



## andrewf

My TFSA is around $48k after the 2014 contribution. 2013 was a good year.


----------



## Spudd

I bought a pile of REITs in my TFSA in May (right before they crashed), so I'm back down to almost contribution level - 32k after this year's contribution. At least it's still in the green!


----------



## GoldStone

Time to start a new thread. If your TFSA is maxed at $31K, how are you doing?


----------



## gibor365

Synergy said:


> ^ Same here, TFSA worst performer for the year (2013) - holding mostly REITs. No complaints though - overall portfolio did just fine! I don't think you have to worry about the average Canadian making millions in their TFSA. It would be interesting to see the stats on how many Canadian actually have a TFSA account.


you can see some numbers here 
http://www.tellwut.com/surveys/busi...sa-tax-free-saving-account-contribution-.html
btw, I did calculation...if you were buying TFSA from Peoples trust (3%) from the beginning and adding new contrib every Jan, you would have now $33,360 !


----------



## Synergy

gibor said:


> you can see some numbers here
> http://www.tellwut.com/surveys/busi...sa-tax-free-saving-account-contribution-.html
> btw, I did calculation...if you were buying TFSA from Peoples trust (3%) from the beginning and adding new contrib every Jan, you would have now $33,360 !


I liked the comment from jwalk 


> What in the world is a TFSA?


Tried to convince my father to open up a TFSA for the last few yrs, and this year I mentioned Peoples trust (3%) to him (as he is a very conservative saver / investor). He still has no interest in opening an account - despite making little to no interest on many of his current savings / investments! My main point was; why pay more tax if you don't have to. I'm sure his banks and financial advisers would have tried to pursuay him as well. Oh well - financial complacency I guess.


----------



## gibor365

Synergy said:


> I liked the comment from jwalk
> 
> Tried to convince my father to open up a TFSA for the last few yrs, and this year I mentioned Peoples trust (3%) to him (as he is a very conservative saver / investor). He still has no interest in opening an account - despite making little to no interest on many of his current savings / investments! My main point was; why pay more tax if you don't have to. I'm sure his banks and financial advisers would have tried to pursuay him as well. Oh well - financial complacency I guess.


I also like comment "TFSAs are a scam. You can only put in a maximum of $5000 per year. That means if you withdraw $15000 you cannot replace it, you can only add $5000.".
People so used to think that everything is scum!!! TFSA is one of the very few positive things that were introduced in Canada in last 10 years!
As per your father, you should be more proactive! If it was up to my mother, in the best case she would hold all her savings in Cheking account...so last year I just opened TFSA in PT in her name and moved (maxed up) her TFSA contributions... 3% in current environment is excellent rate


----------



## heyjude

My first investment in my TFSA was a 5 year GIC at 4.25%. It matures next week. I am reinvesting the proceeds in a 5 year GIC at 3.01% (Scotiabank). I have a lot of TFSA contribution room right now as I had three years' worth of contributions in an index fund which did very well. I took the profits a month ago and used that money to pay off some debt. As I am retired, I do not expect that my TFSA will ever get large enough to be a significant portion of my portfolio. Over time I plan to use it to house a mix of investments, some generating stable income, and some growth, taking profits as they occur. I do want to avoid losses if possible and would wait out a correction.


----------



## Ethan

GoldStone said:


> Time to start a new thread. If your TFSA is maxed at $31K, how are you doing?


$55,016.67


----------



## GoldStone

GoldStone said:


> Time to start a new thread. If your TFSA is maxed at $31K, how are you doing?





Ethan said:


> $55,016.67


Your result doesn't count. You didn't start a new thread. :biggrin:


----------



## Wiser14

$37,200. Hope to do better now that I got rid of my bank advisor.


----------



## humble_pie

$55,561.29.

i made a serious mistake in 2013. I sold 1100 shares of a truly nifty oil explorer in the $7 range & then watched it romp up to $9.60. Meanwhile with the proceeds i bought 350 shares of goldcorp & it promptly slid even deeper into the garbage can.

it was the first serious mistake in tfsa in 5 years. It's unnerving enough to drive a girl to HISAs.


----------



## Killer Z

I'm at nearly neutral (approx $32k) due to my Precious Metals and REIT investments. My other investments have done quite well though to reverse the damage .......TD, RBC, Suncor, Baytex and Boston Pizza.


----------



## My Own Advisor

About $37k, REITs dragging it down.


----------



## Jungle

37k, but started 2013 with only 11k. 

XIRR shows my 2013 TFSA return was over 24%, a mixture of CAD stocks. Contributed a lot last year and finally maxed out tfsa. 

Congrats to those with 50k+ those returns are fantastic. Too bad I didn't start from the begining. This account can really show the effects of compounding.


----------



## HaroldCrump

Hey, MoneySense, no fair 
They are listing folks with TFSA balances in the $40K range as "winners" of their contest.
There's got to be dozens and dozens of CMF members with TFSAs in the $40K and $50K range.

http://www.moneysense.ca/save/tfsa/the-great-tfsa-race


----------



## Toronto.gal

HaroldCrump said:


> 1. There's got to be dozens and dozens of CMF members with TFSAs in the $40K and $50K range.
> 2. no fair


*1.* Well sure, no surprise there considering how great this forum is! And those that are below, will soon catch up, no doubt!
*2. *What's no fair? Most don't like to even have a fraction of their net worth published; not here nor anywhere else.


----------



## andrewf

I'm surprised they only found 1 person with >$100k TFSA balance.


----------



## Eclectic12

andrewf said:


> I'm surprised they only found 1 person with >$100k TFSA balance.


I'm not surprised as it's really "people with >$100K TFSA balance who are willing to have the value as well as their name published". I know several who have relatives on their doorstep in such a situation - never mind those who want to keep the value known to themselves.

[ ... never mind the questions about " ... what should I invest in?" ]


Cheers


----------



## marina628

$46248.74 INCLUDING 2014 , my husband's $49325.77 including 2014.


----------



## Ponderling

$36.8 k me, 38.2k wife including 2014.


----------



## tojo

Mine: $46107
Hers: $60648: current yielding 5.88% or $3568 annually.


----------



## yyz

I was the $48300 listed in moneysense.Those values they listed were from back in September I believe.

Today approx with 2014 contributions

TFSA 1 $57000
TFSA 2 $48000


----------



## GoldStone

After today's close

Mine: $54,586
Hers: $56,299

Both accounts were 3K higher 10 days ago. Our top position dropped 10% after reaching an all time high at the end of December.


----------



## My Own Advisor

Nice work GoldStone. I made (the mistake?) of holding FTS and REITs in our TFSAs. I don't intend to change but it has hurt my returns, things will come around.


----------



## My Own Advisor

Nice work yyz


----------



## daddybigbucks

Great work everyone.

You can now all quit your day jobs and go into stock market full time.

I'm at $43,750.
And i can't wait to say that for real.


----------



## Jagas

I suck at TFSA's. With room of $31K to date, I have amassed $31,035. I paid someone $50 to take all my funds and bury them in my own backyard. Turns out the soil is really easy to work with and they only charged $15 in the end and just slid the difference in with the bundled cash.


----------



## dime

Kuodos to all you with the sweet gains in your TFSA 

My maxed out TFSA is my "sleep well at night" fund because its in short term bond funds that will keep pace with inflation and lowers the volatility of my overall portfolio. It holds Horizons Floating Rate ETF (HFR), Canadian Short-Term Corporate Bond Index ETF (VSC) and ishares 1-5 Year Laddered Corporate Bond Index Fund (CBO).

The TFSA is great place to protect your fixed income yield that otherwise you'd be paying tax on at the full rate. IMHO it's a good tax strategy.


----------



## Islenska

Feel unworthy here---------for 2~ $60k

Will add the 2014 contribution soonest.


----------



## Jungle

Remember size doesn't matter- its how you use it


----------



## OurBigFatWallet

My Own Advisor said:


> Nice work GoldStone. I made (the mistake?) of holding FTS and REITs in our TFSAs. I don't intend to change but it has hurt my returns, things will come around.


Hey Mark, do you have a different strategy with your TFSA? I hold both FTS and REITs in my registered account but for TFSA trying to be more aggressive. It doesn't come natural for a conservative accountant


----------



## dawne

kaleb0 said:


> My TFSA is at $26,900.16, definitely envious of some of the returns I've seen in this thread - congrats to you all.. I'm still learning though, and I'm happy that I've managed to make any gains at all.


Reading a few notes here re: TFSA. What institution are you folks leaving it in? And what percent do you get? Sorry, but haven't read to page 16 yet.. I have $600 sitting in one institution now at 1.75%. Hoping to max it out in a couple months, but want to move it to a place that gives better returns. Have you heard of People's Choice? Do you think it's safe there at 3%? IF not, where would you recommend putting it?


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## andrewf

Everyone who has had significant returns in their TFSA did it by investing in equities (ie, stocks).


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## dawne

andrewf said:


> Everyone who has had significant returns in their TFSA did it by investing in equities (ie, stocks).


If I don't want to invest in stocks, and want to max out TFSA, can you recommend a trustworthy institution that offers 3%? Wondering about People's Choice being at 3% , if it's deemed 'safe' and/or has been used by many....ie: what it's reputation is..?

Thanks.


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## GoldStone

dawne said:


> If I don't want to invest in stocks, and want to max out TFSA, can you recommend a trustworthy institution that offers 3%? Wondering about People's Choice being at 3% , if it's deemed 'safe' and/or has been used by many....ie: what it's reputation is..?


You mean Peoples Trust? Yes, many of us here use it. Reputation alone isn't worth much. CDIC insurance is the most important factor that matters. CDIC = Canadian Deposit Insurance Corporation.

Peoples Trust is a member of CDIC. If PT goes under, you will get your money back from CDIC.

http://www.cdic.ca/Pages/Members.aspx#PP


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## dawne

GoldStone said:


> You mean Peoples Trust? Yes, many of us here use it. Reputation alone isn't worth much. CDIC insurance is the most important factor that matters. CDIC = Canadian Deposit Insurance Corporation.
> 
> Peoples Trust is a member of CDIC. If PT goes under, you will get your money back from CDIC.
> 
> http://www.cdic.ca/Pages/Members.aspx#PP


Thanks Goldstone, and yes, you're right, I meant People's Trust.....must be too many award shows going in my brain.. Is it the only institution that offers 3% for TFSA? I couldn't find any other.....And if it's the only one, then it might win the award from me:encouragement:


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## GoldStone

dawne said:


> Is it the only institution that offers 3% for TFSA?


Yes

http://www.highinterestsavings.ca/chart/


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## Westerly

As was discussed years back, some (many?) people used the 1 month penalty to increase their TFSAs significantly above the allowable limits (millions) when they first came out and before the loophole was closed. That was just before the crash. It would be interesting to see where some of these investors are today.


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## My Own Advisor

OurBigFatWallet said:


> Hey Mark, do you have a different strategy with your TFSA? I hold both FTS and REITs in my registered account but for TFSA trying to be more aggressive. It doesn't come natural for a conservative accountant


Ha.

Not really. I hold FTS, some CDN REITs, some BMO and a bit of XIU inside my TFSA. I think it's hovering around $36k. Average dividends/distribution yield is about 4.5%.

I filled up my TFSA this year by moving some non-reg. holdings to TFSA. I will continue to do that for the next few years.

I will write a post about that this month. 

I try to stay fully invested (with stocks, REITs) in my TFSA. I keep a small emergency fund vs. using my TFSA for cash. I figure the TFSA is the best retirement account we have, might as well use it for equities. 

Working on maxing out my wife's account for 2014, that will take a few months though.


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## Eclectic12

Westerly said:


> As was discussed years back, some (many?) people used the 1 month penalty to increase their TFSAs significantly above the allowable limits (millions) when they first came out and before the loophole was closed ...


I doubt it was many ... for this to work, it required someone who had extra cash to contribute, understood the TFSA rules, had run the math for (or been advised of) this strategy and knew of an investment was that was going go up in value enough to make up for the 1% per month penalty and leave a decent amount behind.

For example, if the investment went up 6% in six months, that's only going to pay off the penalty and leave little or nothing behind.


With the number of people confused by TFSAs plus the gov't closed off the loophole by about Oct of the first year of the TFSA (i.e. 2009), there wasn't a lot of opportunity.




Westerly said:


> ... That was just before the crash. It would be interesting to see where some of these investors are today.


Actually, as I recall, it was during the crash as the TFSA allowed deposits Jan 1, 2009, where I seem to recall a chunk of the drop being in Feb 2009.

I agree it would be interesting to find out.


Cheers


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## marina628

When we first got started I had some GIC ,index funds ,T ,IPL .When our dollar was close to par I sold all my CAD stocks and bought all USD in TFSA and made a few plays with ZNGA ,TTWO ,YHOO .Now I am doing reverse selling all USD stocks with 30% + profits because of the Forex bonus of 10% and looking at CAD investments.


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## Westerly

Eclectic, it did happen and happened enough for a change to the rule. My understanding is that those in the know over-contributed for one month (say 1 mill) and then withdrew the funds in that month. They pay one month penalty at 1%. In the following year they have their contrib room like you and I plus the 1 mill extra starting Jan 2009. That's when they would potentially re-contribute. Now, depending on what they invested in they could either be much better off or much worse. I would agree that "odds are" if they had a mill to set aside for a month they probably faired well. I'm sure some stories will come out eventually.


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## Eclectic12

Westerly said:


> Eclectic, it did happen and happened enough for a change to the rule ...


*shrug* - we both agree it happened and it was significant. 

_(When was the last time the gov't acted in ten months & made the changes effective the date of the public announcement instead of when the rule changes passed?)_

I'm not finding numbers for how many people had a TFSA in 2009 but by 2011, only a bit over 8 million people had a TFSA (after a full three years). I know of lots of people who didn't open a TFSA until 2010 or later. 

Now filter out the people were sidetracked by the "savings" part of the title and thought that a savings account was all that a TFSA could hold.

Then too - it would only take one deliberate over-contribution (growth or just straight contribution) to get the attention of the gov't. It would stand out dramatically that they had granted $5K but someone had $90K or more.


Personally - I don't think we will hear anything about numbers, other than the generic descriptions to highlight the "why" of the changes. It would be too much of an embarrassment for the gov't.


Cheers


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## dBII

$32599...sitting on 33% cash...


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## GreedIsGood

Can someone explain TFSA to me? I have just over $15k in there but it's just sitting there in cash. I think my rate is around 1.5% - 1.75% with President's Choice.

I didn't know that I could invest in REIT and stocks?


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## jamesbe

TFSA is simply the registered account type. You can open an investment account and invest into many things. You can have many TFSA accounts as well.

Like an RRSP a TFSA itself is not really a thing or account. 

The banks really confused people when it first started and even now as it is basically advertised as a savings account, but you can do many investment types.


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## GreedIsGood

So it is just like any investment account but the only difference is that it is registered? So if it really is tax free, and you invest in stocks, then capital gains and dividends would not be taxed?


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## Video_Frank

Canadian capital gains and divvies are tax free, yes. U.S. divvies are subject to withholding taxes and are not recoverable (unlike in RRSPs).


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## Jon_Snow

If REITS bounce back at all both our accounts should be in the 40's... Got some great deals on some depressed REITS.


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## Eclectic12

jamesbe said:


> GreedIsGood said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone explain TFSA to me? I have just over $15k in there but it's just sitting there in cash. I think my rate is around 1.5% - 1.75% with President's Choice.
> 
> I didn't know that I could invest in REIT and stocks?
> 
> 
> 
> TFSA is simply the registered account type. You can open an investment account and invest into many things. You can have many TFSA accounts as well.
> 
> Like an RRSP a TFSA itself is not really a thing or account ...
Click to expand...




GreedIsGood said:


> So it is just like any investment account but the only difference is that it is registered?
> So if it really is tax free, and you invest in stocks, then capital gains and dividends would not be taxed?



+1 .... as the TFSA link (as well as lot of articles) says:


> Choose from a wide range of investment options such as mutual funds, Guaranteed Investment Certificates (GICs) and bonds.


http://www.tfsa.gc.ca/

Other useful links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax-Free_Savings_Account
http://www.thestar.com/business/per...vings_account_10_things_you_need_to_know.html


As mentioned by Video_Frank, for a Canadian - the US dividend withholding tax that the IRS takes is the one thing to watch out for.
http://canadiancouchpotato.com/2012/09/17/foreign-withholding-tax-explained/
http://canadiancouchpotato.com/2012/09/20/foreign-withholding-tax-which-fund-goes-where/


Then too - I've see a lot of good financial or tax books in the library that have at least a chapter on TFSAs.

Or there's lots of threads on the TFSA here on CMF, if you search for them.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12

jamesbe said:


> ... The banks really confused people when it first started and even now as it is basically advertised as a savings account, but you can do many investment types.


Say what?

When I checked out the gov't & CRA web sites in Mar 2009 before I set my up, both clearly stated that pretty much any investment that qualifed for a Registered Retirement *Savings* Plan (RRSP) was allowed in a TFSA.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/tfsa-celi/nvstmnts-eng.html


... so I've never really understood why people apparently investigate what can be held in an RRSP and make assumptions about the TFSA.


Cheers


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## wert

I used two different strategies. In mine I traded speculative stocks (less than 2% of my total portfolio) looking for the 'home run' which would be totally sheltered from taxes. Now I am wishing the account wasn't sheltered so I could at least claim the losses against gains in my more traditional investments  ~$12,000

With spouse, used REITs exclusively to shelter the income and growth. At about $37,000.

Considering moving the lot to International Stocks and just forgetting about it now.


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## jamesbe

Eclectic12 said:


> Say what?
> 
> When I checked out the gov't & CRA web sites in Mar 2009 before I set my up, both clearly stated that pretty much any investment that qualifed for a Registered Retirement *Savings* Plan (RRSP) was allowed in a TFSA.
> 
> http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/tfsa-celi/nvstmnts-eng.html
> 
> 
> ... so I've never really understood why people apparently investigate what can be held in an RRSP and make assumptions about the TFSA.
> 
> 
> Cheers


John Q public isnt that smart. I know a lot of highly educated folks and most think a tfsa is only a bank account with a slightly higher rate. Initial advertising was geared that way.


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## pwm

They screwed up when they thought up the name. It should have been "Tax Free Investment Account". It would then have been the TFIA and as a result, more obvious as to its intent.


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## My Own Advisor

I like TFRA = Tax Free Retirement Account 
http://www.myownadvisor.ca/2013/11/name-changes-needed-canadian-financial-accounts/

Best retirement account we have IMO.


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## Eclectic12

jamesbe said:


> John Q public isnt that smart.
> I know a lot of highly educated folks and most think a tfsa is only a bank account with a slightly higher rate. Initial advertising was geared that way.


*shrug* - I know a lot of highly educated folks who spend far more than they need for computers & parts so should the local computer shop be responsible for advertising there are other options out there?

When did John Q public's financial knowledge become a required part of a company's advertising plans?




pwm said:


> They screwed up when they thought up the name. It should have been "Tax Free Investment Account". It would then have been the TFIA and as a result, more obvious as to its intent.


So are you recommending that the Registered Retirement *Savings* Plan (RRSP) be renamed as well? 

It has the same issue ...


Cheers


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## Eclectic12

My Own Advisor said:


> I like TFRA = Tax Free Retirement Account  ...


... but using the logic above and bearing in mind the level John Q public's smarts - won't that be misleading those who need to use the money before retirement for roof orcar repairs etc. and be the advertising company's fault as well? :rolleyes2:


Cheers


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## andrewf

I think when RRSPs were created, the name was carefully chosen because framing is important to behaviour modification. The idea was that calling it a retirement savings account would encourage people to save more. It seems to me the phrase "tax deferred" should be in the name of the account.


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## My Own Advisor

Exactly what I was thinking here Andrewf.


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## Eclectic12

andrewf said:


> I think when RRSPs were created, the name was carefully chosen because framing is important to behaviour modification. The idea was that calling it a retirement savings account would encourage people to save more.
> 
> It seems to me the phrase "tax deferred" should be in the name of the account.


I idly wondered if there was an assumption that that such a similar name to the RRSP would also get people thinking they were similar (something that's failed in terms of the type of investments).


As for adjusting the RRSP name to include "tax deferred" - the question that pops into my mind is that if the average person is putting minimal effort into investigating/understanding that whatever is heavily advertised is the main "definition", won't any confusion generated by the rename work counter to, if not outweigh, what is cleared up?


Cheers


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## Barwelle

My Own Advisor said:


> I like TFRA = Tax Free Retirement Account .


I prefer pwm's suggestion... TFIA tax tree investment account... because you can use it for anything you're saving money for, not just retirement. 

edit: deleted my misinformation


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## moose

I'm sorry for bringing an "old" thread back from the dead, but I believe my question fits here best.

I was doing a thought experiment for fun and thought about something I would like other people's take on. In a TFSA, trading commissions will decrease your value. Are there any brokers which will allow you to pay commissions using funds outside of the TFSA, or do all commissions have to be settled in the account where the trade is taking place? 

I asked Questrade and they said no. Commissions must come from the account where the trade is taking place.


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## Eclectic12

I don't know of any broker or registered account that will allow commissions to come from other accounts.

Cheers


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## Nasha

Just a quick question for my understanding... 

Will a contribution room be forever gone if you put money into a TFSA and the TFSA loses its value? Basically what I am trying to ask is if you put max $5500 into your TFSA, and the TFSA loses all its value, can you put another $5500 in the TFSA during the same year? 

Same question for RRSP as well?

Thank you!


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## humble_pie

alas, the lost $$ will be forever gone & they cannot be replaced.

perhaps even worse - depending on your tax situation - is the fact that the capital loss cannot be claimed. One assumes that a severe loss such as all of $5,500 will be a capital loss. In a cash or margin account, this could at least serve to offset capital gains, but in a registered account such loss cannot be claimed.

it's a good thing you've thought of this & asked this question. Many people will choose to keep TFSA funds in HISA accounts, at least temporarily, while they develop a stable long-term investment plan that, in all likelihood, will *never* see such a terrible loss of assets.

best wishes for your tfsa ...


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## My Own Advisor

Eclectic12 said:


> I don't know of any broker or registered account that will allow commissions to come from other accounts.
> 
> Cheers


Same.


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## Eclectic12

humble_pie said:


> Nasha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a quick question for my understanding...
> 
> Will a contribution room be forever gone if you put money into a TFSA and the TFSA loses its value? ...
> Same question for RRSP as well? ...
> 
> 
> 
> alas, the lost $$ will be forever gone & they cannot be replaced.
> 
> perhaps even worse - depending on your tax situation - is the fact that the capital loss cannot be claimed ...
Click to expand...

+1 ... and the same is true for the RRSP.

So it pays to avoid or keep to a minimum losses in registered accounts.

The only way to make up for the loss is to have other gains within the account. New contribution room may be granted (TFSA) or earned (RRSP) but it does not "replace" the lost room as one would have it granted if one had a gain instead.


Cheers


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## pwm

Another reason why TFSA should not have had the word savings in the title: Last year 76,000 Canadians got the letter from CRA telling them that they had over contributed to their TFSA. They put money in, took some out, then put it back just like any other savings account. Nothing wrong with that right? What some people still are not understanding is the fact that you must wait until the next calendar year to put the money back in. (Unless you have contribution room of course). I really think there would be less confusion if it was a "Tax Free Investment Account". In any case, some people just don't bother to take the time to understand, regardless of how much you try to educate them, and the Government has gone out of its way to try.


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## Eclectic12

pwm said:


> Another reason why TFSA should not have had the word savings in the title ... I really think there would be less confusion if it was a "Tax Free Investment Account".
> 
> In any case, some people just don't bother to take the time to understand, regardless of how much you try to educate them, and the Government has gone out of its way to try.


If it really is a lack of effort - then what about the title "Investment" is going to get people to pay attention to the rules any differently?


Cheers


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## pwm

Perhaps some would be less likely to think of it as being just like any other "savings" account and also it's possible more people would realize they can hold investments other than cash.


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## yyz

So RRSP should be changed as well?


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## Four Pillars

Eclectic12 said:


> So it pays to avoid or keep to a minimum losses in registered accounts.


I think this is a good strategy for any type of account.


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## Toronto.gal

^ Sure, lol, but the point was that you can't claim losses in said accounts.

As for changing the name, would not make an iota of difference IMHO. The only reason people don't know/understand the rules, or are still confused since 09, is simply because many don't bother to read even the basic definition of a TFSA. If they don't even get the 'TF' part, then how is the 'SA' going to be understood better with 'IA'?


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## andrewf

I think people get tripped up on being able to claim losses. Is there a situation where you have a security with a negative expected value? Even with highly speculative investments, the value of shielding the expected gain outweighs the value of the forgone ability to claim losses.

It's just about always better to hold an investment an investment in your TFSA than non-reg, as long as you're expecting to receive a positive total return 'on average' (the statistical definition of 'expectation').


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## Eclectic12

Toronto.gal said:


> Four Pillars said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is a good strategy for any type of account.
> 
> 
> 
> ^ Sure, lol, but the point was that you can't claim losses in said accounts.
Click to expand...

I think we're all in agreement ... the trick is to make it happen consistently. :rolleyes2:




Toronto.gal said:


> ... As for changing the name, would not make an iota of difference IMHO ...


I tend to agree.

I've seen lots of blog postings and web articles clearly listing the rules yet the comments section has a lot of questions that show the info was at best skimmed.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12

andrewf said:


> I think people get tripped up on being able to claim losses ...
> Even with highly speculative investments, the value of shielding the expected gain outweighs the value of the forgone ability to claim losses ... as long as you're expecting to receive a positive total return 'on average' (the statistical definition of 'expectation').


Trouble is ... based on postings, it would seem that a higher than average percentage are diving into speculative investments without adequate monitoring/risk mitigation as they mistakenly think losses can be claimed and/or that losses can be replenished without respecting the contribution limit.


I expect that those with investing experience as well as a plan that's been used in a taxable account are dealing with it appropriately.

For some other posters, a bit of a caution flag goes up with a question like: 


> Will a contribution room be forever gone if you put money into a TFSA and the TFSA loses its value? ... Same question for RRSP as well? ...


Maybe they have a good plan and maybe they don't ... but there's clearly learning in progress.


Cheers


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## Nasha

humble_pie said:


> alas, the lost $$ will be forever gone & they cannot be replaced.
> 
> perhaps even worse - depending on your tax situation - is the fact that the capital loss cannot be claimed. One assumes that a severe loss such as all of $5,500 will be a capital loss. In a cash or margin account, this could at least serve to offset capital gains, but in a registered account such loss cannot be claimed.
> 
> it's a good thing you've thought of this & asked this question. Many people will choose to keep TFSA funds in HISA accounts, at least temporarily, while they develop a stable long-term investment plan that, in all likelihood, will *never* see such a terrible loss of assets.
> 
> best wishes for your tfsa ...





Eclectic12 said:


> +1 ... and the same is true for the RRSP.
> 
> So it pays to avoid or keep to a minimum losses in registered accounts.
> 
> The only way to make up for the loss is to have other gains within the account. New contribution room may be granted (TFSA) or earned (RRSP) but it does not "replace" the lost room as one would have it granted if one had a gain instead.
> 
> 
> Cheers


Thank you for helping me understand!


----------



## Nasha

Just a follow-up question... if instead an investor decides to withdraw an "x" amount from the TFSA... does the same principle apply that the contribution room will be gone forever? The reason why I am asking this is because I have heard mixed answers so far.

Assuming this is year 2009 (the first year of TFSA) and an investor puts in $5000 max in first month of Year 1. By the 7th month of Year 1, the value of the TFSA becomes $7000. Can the investor withdraw $3000 in month 7, and contribute $1000 before the end of the year without incurring any penalty? 

Thanks in advance. Kindly bear with me as I am at the beginning of the learning curve.


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## HomeChef

Nasha said:


> Just a follow-up question... if instead an investor decides to withdraw an "x" amount from the TFSA... does the same principle apply that the contribution room will be gone forever? The reason why I am asking this is because I have heard mixed answers so far.
> 
> Assuming this is year 2009 (the first year of TFSA) and an investor puts in $5000 max in first month of Year 1. By the 7th month of Year 1, the value of the TFSA becomes $7000. Can the investor withdraw $3000 in month 7, and contribute $1000 before the end of the year without incurring any penalty?
> 
> Thanks in advance. Kindly bear with me as I am at the beginning of the learning curve.


My understanding is NO. The person would have to wait until Year 2 and then could contribute the $3000 withdrawn plus another $5000 for Year 2 (assuming it's 2010 as in your example).


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## Canadian

No - the contribution room is not gone forever. An investor can recontribute the withdrawn amount in the next calendar year.

To your example: the investor will be penalized 1% per month that the $1,000 has been contributed in 2009 as max contributions have been made. To avoid penalties, the investor must wait until January 1, 2010 when they can contribute the $5,000 for new 2010 room and an additional $3,000 for the amount withdrawn in 2009.


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## Nasha

Understood... thank you very much!

It can be quite cumbersome to track if one withdraws on a regular basis. I wonder how CRA tracks it for millions of Canadians. They must have some insane mechanisms behind the scenes


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## HomeChef

Nasha said:


> Understood... thank you very much!
> 
> It can be quite cumbersome to track if one withdraws on a regular basis. I wonder how CRA tracks it for millions of Canadians. They must have some insane mechanisms behind the scenes


You can view your available contribution room if you log in to your account on the CRA website. 

CRA login


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## Canadian

Nasha said:


> It can be quite cumbersome to track if one withdraws on a regular basis. I wonder how CRA tracks it for millions of Canadians. They must have some insane mechanisms behind the scenes


Institutions report the information to the CRA - same as they would with RRSP contributions/withdrawals.



HomeChef said:


> You can view your available contribution room if you log in to your account on the CRA website.


+1

Setting up a CRA account makes life so much easier (well... all things CRA-related).


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## pwm

I just watched Market Call Tonight from yesterday with John DeGoey as the guest. Interesting that he also mentioned that in his opinion, they misnamed the TFSA and should have called it an Investment account. And BTW, I never suggested they rename it. It's far too late for that. I only suggested they did it wrong in the first place.


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## Synergy

^ I'm not sure how much that would help improve utilization. You'd think "tax free" would be enough to entice people to learn more - everyone wants something for "free". TFSA also rolls off the tongue a little better than TFIA.


----------

