# Ufile - CNIL



## Benting (Dec 21, 2016)

I have been using Ufile for last few years. Although it is pretty simple for wife and I. RRIF, CPP, OAS, interests and stock dividend for income and medical expense. I always have a little doubt that if I did it right. Wish somewhere I can go and find somebody leads me through it step by step.

One line 'CNIL, cumulative net investment loss' that automatically brought forward with some numbers. What is this ? I have non-registered investments such as stocks that pays me dividend, but I never claim capital gain or loss. How Ufile got those numbers ? Should I delete the page ?

By the way, I carried forward this year return from last year. I do not remember I came across this. Or may be I was in hurry to get it done and just took those numbers.

Thanks for the help.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

UFile calculates these numbers based on certain data points elsewhere in your tax return, and accumulates date from files that have been carried forward from prior years. It includes both investment expense and income data, e.g. from both Schedule 3 and Schedule 4 at a minimum. I don't think the data means much since CRA automatically populates the CNIL dataset historically, e.g. for all the years one has been filing tax returns, and thus unless someone has gone into their MyAccount to find the historical data to populate UFile, the cumulative data won't match anyway.


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## Benting (Dec 21, 2016)

Thank you AltaRed.

I deleted the CNIL page since I do not have any investment loss or expense. The result is my wife wih income of 32k have to pay roughly 17% tax. is it a bit high ? If I leave the number of Ufile CNIL number, she would have to even pay more !

I used to do the tax manually. I trusted 100% for my returns. Now, using this tax software, somehow I have many doubts ! Perhaps I should get another software to double check the result. I almost thinking of going to local H&R to get it done. By the way, how much do they charge for a simple tax return ?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

By deleting it, I assume you mean that in the 'Interview Setup', and the 'Interest, Investment Income and Carrying Charges group', you "de-selected' Form T936 and did not enter any 2016 data there?.... Which by the way is nothing more than a 'Carry Forward' UFile would have brought with it from 2016. You just can't eliminate CNIL data that the tax software generates. It won't give you the right result and CRA will re-assess the return.....and charge penalties and interest for underpayment of taxes.

The CNIL sheet includes lots more than just investment loss or expense. It also contains entries for investment income, etc.

You say 17% tax... Is that the Marginal Tax Rate Ufile presents you, or the average tax rate? It probably is right on a MTR basis because federal tax rate alone is 15%. Add on a provincial tax rate, and it can easily be 17% on an MTR basis.

If you don't trust UFile tax software, do the return in Studio Tax to verify the result. It's free. Forget H&R Block.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Benting said:


> I have been using Ufile for last few years. Although it is pretty simple for wife and I. RRIF, CPP, OAS, interests and stock dividend for income and medical expense. I always have a little doubt that if I did it right. Wish somewhere I can go and find somebody leads me through it step by step ... *I used to do the tax manually. I trusted 100% for my returns.
> 
> Now, using this tax software, somehow I have many doubts ! Perhaps I should get another software to double check the result ... *


*
If you trusted what you did on the paper return, why not click on the "Tax Return - View or print your complete tax return(s)". 

It starts out with the summaries, keying forms etc. but if you click on the "T1 - Federal condensed pg 1" you will see the tax return the same as had you filled out a paper return.
Not quite the same at the software does the math and automatically transfers things like "Schedule 7 - RRSP" line 17 for an RRSP deduction over to Line 208 of the T1 form.

You should be able to walk through your return, line by line - the same as verifying a paper return.


If you want to use other tax software to check (which some do), there is StudioTax at http://www.studiotax.com/en/.
The interface will likely be a bit different but a tax return is a tax return.





Benting said:



... I almost thinking of going to local H&R to get it done. By the way, how much do they charge for a simple tax return ?

Click to expand...

I seem to recall posts says a simple return was $60 where more complicated ones were more expensive. They used to try to get new business by offering a free review of the last return to show how their expert knowledge can get more money back versus the average person doing it on their own.


Returning to the key questions ...


Benting said:



What is this?

Click to expand...

http://www.taxplanningguide.ca/tax-...rs/cumulative-net-investment-loss-cnil-rules/




Benting said:



... I have non-registered investments such as stocks that pays me dividend, but I never claim capital gain or loss ... Should I delete the page ?

Click to expand...

No ... the notes at the top of CRA's form for calculating CNIL answer this question with:



Use this form if you had any investment income or investment expenses for 2017 ... Even if you are not claiming a capital gains deduction in 2017, you should still complete this form if you had any investment income or expenses in 2017.

Click to expand...

 Stock dividends that you mention would be investment income as I understand it.

The PDF version of the form that includes the notes are at ... https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/cra-arc/formspubs/pbg/t936/t936-17e.pdf


Cheers*


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## Benting (Dec 21, 2016)

Thank you AltaRed and E12.

Just wondering how Ufile got those CNIL numbers ? If I do the tax manually, I would not have these numbers. To get these numbers, is that mean I have to manually calculate this ? When I did the tax manually, I do not have any dividend income. May be that is why I did not come across with this problem.

As for my wife, she need to pay 17% tax on her 32k income, while I only need to pay 12%. It seems to me something is not right.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Benting said:


> Just wondering how Ufile got those CNIL numbers ? If I do the tax manually, I would not have these numbers. To get these numbers, is that mean I have to manually calculate this ? When I did the tax manually, I do not have any dividend income. May be that is why I did not come across with this problem.


They are calculated numbers from your tax return. If you look at the form that Eclectic provided for you, you will see where the inputs come from (other places on the tax return). You should be completing the form even when doing you tax return manually.



> As for my wife, she need to pay 17% tax on her 32k income, while I only need to pay 12%. It seems to me something is not right.


You have not answered my question on average vs marginal tax rate. Also, have you verified all your inputs? UFile provides very good summary pages of various bits of data. Check them against your tax slip data.


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## Benting (Dec 21, 2016)

Thank you again AltaRed.

So sorry, I have absolutely no idea of what is the difference between average and marginal tax rate. The % I calculated is based on 5,500 tax from 32,000 total income. Therefore, 5500/32000 is roughly 17%. Is this MTR ?

I definitely will go through my input again......


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Benting said:


> Just wondering how Ufile got those CNIL numbers ?


I seem to recall an overall number being carried forward year by year. 
Did you import a previous year UFile return? 
Or did you import any of CRA's forms using the autofill feature?




Benting said:


> ... If I do the tax manually, I would not have these numbers. To get these numbers, is that mean I have to manually calculate this ?


The numbers that come from the 2017 tax return - the software takes care of for you where it should be automatically updating them should a relevant number be changed. 
Some examples are that line 1 in Part 1 is from the T1 form line 221 while line 8 in Part 2 is from T1 lines 120 and 121.

If you have been importing previous returns where you were using Ufile when the investment income as well as the CNIL form came became needed, the software again, should be taking care of it. Otherwise, you are going to have to figure out what number from other tax years are then plug them in. 

For example, line 18 is "Total investment income claimed *in previous years (after 1987)*: Enter the amount *from line 19 
in Part 3 of Form T936 for 2016*. If you did not complete Form T936 for 2016, see note 2 below"




Benting said:


> ... When I did the tax manually, I do not have any dividend income. May be that is why I did not come across with this problem.


It would explain why the CNIL form would not included as well as why you are not familiar with it. It is a requirement of the tax return so calling a "problem" seems counterproductive.




Benting said:


> ... As for my wife, she need to pay 17% tax on her 32k income, while I only need to pay 12%. It seems to me something is not right.


If she has $32K of employment income and you have $32K of eligible dividend income as your only source of income, she will have tax to pay and you will have no taxes to pay.

Without details ... I can't comment one way or the other.


Keep in mind that while spouses file separate tax returns, some items such as the claiming charitable donations can be done by either spouse. The software may have shifted who is claiming what to end up with a better benefit.


My guess is that the best way to proceed is:

a) as AltaRed outlined


> ... do the return in Studio Tax to verify the result. It's free.


 If the numbers agree, I would expect good odds that it is correct.

and/or 

b) print the two returns using the view/print function then go through it line by line.



Cheers


*PS*
If you run out of time, don't forget to file on time to avoid penalties. You can revisit this at your leisure after the tax return has been filed. If you find a mistake, you can file an adjustment to fix it.

If you have been reporting dividend income on several tax returns over the years - it might be worthwhile to check that a CNIL carryover amount was not skipped or dropped. I would expect CRA's computers to catch this but I like to be sure.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Benting said:


> So sorry, I have absolutely no idea of what is the difference between average and marginal tax rate. The % I calculated is based on 5,500 tax from 32,000 total income. Therefore, 5500/32000 is roughly 17%. Is this MTR ?


That is average tax rate. Print out a copy of either your, or your wife's tax return using the Tax Return tab (just before the Nefile tab), either PDF or Paper. Doesn't matter which of the two returns since the UFile Summary data is shown for both taxpayers on the same sheets.

The first sheet is the UFile cover page. The second sheet provides Executive Summary and will show both you and your wife's Summary data side by side in 2 columns... along with a total for the two of you as a couple. That sheet shows both Marginal Tax Rate and Average Tax Rate. The next 2 pages show Tax Return Summary with Spouse and provides a summary of all the key data points you entered... not a bad place to check for errors.

UFile tax software calculates the right data. It is known to have a few glitches on certain types of weird tax stuff, but nothing that will affect the average person. It is 'certified' by CRA. Don't blame the software. It does what it is supposed to do.

Added later: I'd say something is strange with the data input on your spouse's return. Average tax rate cannot be $5500 on income of $32k. Also, remember that UFile's MaxBack calculation optimizes who should claim medical expenses, charitable donations and the like...to minimize combined tax between the 2 of you.


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## Benting (Dec 21, 2016)

Thank you AltaRed and E12.

Yeah, I used UFile's MaxBack. I suspect that I made a bobo somewhere. My wife should not need to pay this amount of tax with her income. I thought it is because of deleting the CNIL page that did it. I added page back and the result was the same. Therefore, I'll going to check line by line to find where I did wrong. And also as you 2 suggested, I'll try the Studio Tax to verify the result.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I did not believe Maxback and forced it to get me to claim. The result was $20 more in tax owing. She had a big capital gain.


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