# High risk in TFSA



## j8chan (Apr 5, 2009)

Just curious to know if anyone out there is playing their TFSA account as a gambling account with high risk stocks/options.

I have been jumping around in the Horizons BetaPro Funds and am up 20% in about 3 months. How much is yours currently worth?

Also, I didn't create my TFSA until mid year, like June 2009. Do I have to wait til June 2010 before I can put another 5k in?

Thanks


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

Yeah, I would be curious to see what some people have their 5000 contribution up to in market value now....or down to for that matter.


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

Doesn't matter when you opened the TFSA, everyone gets another $5k contribution room on Jan 1st

I plan start trading with my TFSA in 2010


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## flayto (Apr 4, 2009)

I'm using mine as a high risk gambling account. I started in January with a lump sum of $5000 and so far am up to about $7900.

The bulk of my winnings (about $2000 worth) have come from a single coal stock, PCX (which I got the idea to buy from a trader I was following on Twitter). 

I've also been playing with Horizons BetaPro funds - namely HNU, which follows Natural GAs Prices. It was getting pretty tempting to buy as prices continued to go down, but I bought in a little early - $4.00 a share, ($20.00 post-reverse-split) and was down more than 50% at one point but after averaging down I'm almost back to even now. No idea how that will do in the next little while as there are strong opinions on both sides of the NatGas arguments about future prices.

It's scary to think I'm basically doing the same foolish thing people were doing back in the late '90s during the tech boom - basically buying anything some stranger recommended and doing well at it. With the way the market has been since March, it's been easier to find big winners than losers or sideways-moving stocks. This won't continue forever and I just hope I have the willpower and fortitude to pull out or at least be more diligent with my research on stock picks when this bull-run ends.

You don't have to wait until June 2010 to put in another 5k - Everybody get 5k new contribution room starting January 1 (or I guess technically January 2 since no brokerage or bank of any kind will process deposits on the 1st).


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

j8chan said:


> Just curious to know if anyone out there is playing their TFSA account as a gambling account with high risk stocks/options.


My wife and I hold stock in our TFSA but it is low risk. 



j8chan said:


> I have been jumping around in the Horizons BetaPro Funds and am up 20% in about 3 months. How much is yours currently worth?


We are up over 40% YTD so over $14K in our TFSAs.

We also don't like to sell so we are not taking full advantage of the tax-free benefits of the TFSA. We recognize that the return is nice (and likely unsustainable), but also understand that it's only $14K.



j8chan said:


> Also, I didn't create my TFSA until mid year, like June 2009. Do I have to wait til June 2010 before I can put another 5k in?


I don't think so.


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## yyzvoyageur (Apr 10, 2009)

My TFSA is spread over a couple of ETFs. Last I checked, it was up to $6600. I'm actually considering selling and throwing the whole lot into the BMO Monthly Income Fund along with next year's contribution. The 0.06/unit monthly distribution looks good and could nicely complement my all-equity RRSP and non-registered accounts. I'd definitely consider using it for high-risk trading, but at the moment I really don't have the knowledge or desire to get into that.


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## MoneyMaker (Jun 1, 2009)

My TFSA is spread between two income trusts: inter pipeline and calloway REIT, doing quite handsomely right now.


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## lister (Apr 3, 2009)

I'm likely going to take a few high risk chances with my TFSA to build it up. I haven't taken any just yet because right now I've got just WRK.UN in my TFSA which I have at an average price of $15. I'm up about $3000 not including dividends (a little over $400 for them.) Just have to decide when to sell.  I'll definitely sell if WRK gets up to $30 where I'll double my $5000. I'm kicking myself for not buying them in my RRSP at around $14 when I had the chance. DOH!

I haven't decided what my spouse's TFSA will have in it yet. Probably another REIT or KNA. No research done yet as I won't be contributing to her TFSA until the end of October. I probably won't play with her TFSA unless I'm dead certain on something.


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## Kinny (Apr 3, 2009)

I started my TFSA back in Feb and have split it into two accounts. I basically put $2,500 into a mutual fund (Precious metals) and another $2,500 into stock trading. So far, i'm up $2,000 which isn't too bad. 

I pulled out yesterday, because I feel the momentum of a rising US Dollar, which may lower equities and commodities. I'll get back in probably within the coming weeks.


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

Although I understand that the TFSA's advantage is being a tax-free account, it still shocks me that some people use it to trade securities (ie turnover times less than 1 year). Are the trading profits from this really that compelling? Come on now...


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## flayto (Apr 4, 2009)

Rickson9 said:


> Although I understand that the TFSA's advantage is being a tax-free account, it still shocks me that some people use it to trade securities (ie turnover times less than 1 year). Are the trading profits from this really that compelling? Come on now...


Yes, they are - at least for me. That's why it's my gambling account - at least while we're still dealing with small enough amounts like $5000. Am I using a sound investment strategy? Absolutely not. I admit it - This is speculating, not investing. And in a huge bull-run following the 2nd worst bear market in history, I figure why not ride the wave while I can. It's thrilling to make many small sums of money so quickly (like I would if I were to win at, say, the casino). 

My "real" buy-and-hold investments are in my RRSP. Perhaps when my TFSA gets enough contribution room in it, I'll want to get a bit more serious with where I allocate funds, but for now, I'm definitely quite happy being up nearly 60% on my initial $5000.

So I would say that yes, the trading profits at this particular point in time are compelling enough to merit doing what I'm doing. I'm not risking my entire future here - just playing with a bit of money that I actually can afford to lose. But unlike at a casino or in the lottery, it's unlikely that I will lose 100% of my "bet" on a solitary event.


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## Mockingbird (Apr 29, 2009)

Rickson9 said:


> Are the trading profits from this really that compelling?


Yes, especially to the successful daytraders.


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## Kinny (Apr 3, 2009)

flayto said:


> Yes, they are - at least for me. That's why it's my gambling account - at least while we're still dealing with small enough amounts like $5000. Am I using a sound investment strategy? Absolutely not. I admit it - This is speculating, not investing. And in a huge bull-run following the 2nd worst bear market in history, I figure why not ride the wave while I can. It's thrilling to make many small sums of money so quickly (like I would if I were to win at, say, the casino).
> 
> My "real" buy-and-hold investments are in my RRSP. Perhaps when my TFSA gets enough contribution room in it, I'll want to get a bit more serious with where I allocate funds, but for now, I'm definitely quite happy being up nearly 60% on my initial $5000.
> 
> So I would say that yes, the trading profits at this particular point in time are compelling enough to merit doing what I'm doing. I'm not risking my entire future here - just playing with a bit of money that I actually can afford to lose. But unlike at a casino or in the lottery, it's unlikely that I will lose 100% of my "bet" on a solitary event.


ditto what flayto said. With $5K as an initial investment, I am treating it as a gambling account as well. But as it grows (either from gains or contribution), I will move into a long term strategy. Markets are too volatile these days...fundamentals are lacking...most investors, day traders, institutions, bankers reads the same charts and they all display the same information. Technical Analysis is the way to go in a volatile market.


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

Mockingbird said:


> Yes, especially to the successful daytraders.


Different strokes for different folks. As they say, "there are a million ways to make a million bucks!" Good job!


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## yyzvoyageur (Apr 10, 2009)

Any consider using CBN or CBD (the Claymore wrap ETFs) in your TFSA? Doesn't seem like that bad an idea considering the current value of our TFSAs.


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## takingprofits (Apr 13, 2009)

j8chan said:


> Just curious to know if anyone out there is playing their TFSA account as a gambling account with high risk stocks/options.
> 
> I have been jumping around in the Horizons BetaPro Funds and am up 20% in about 3 months. How much is yours currently worth?


I started my TFSA at the end of February and had the idea that I was going to use it for more high risk investments. I have been in and out of a few different things since but did try some BetaPro along the way and lost money each time. I found that my fear of loss has become greater than my desire for gain and am a bit more risk adverse than I thought - a result of the great plunge we all recently experienced I guess.

After doing some arithmetic and seeing how much a 20 to 30 percent return would amount to after 10 years - I decided to settle for that while reducing risk. I have been playing it safer by holding at least two stocks in my TFSA. I am buying when an opportunity presents itself (when a stock is bouncing off support) and selling when the stocks are overbought (I don't like to watch my stocks decline in value). 

I just took profits a few days ago so am now in cash - up 33%. I will be buy again next week - perhaps some MFC.to to start with...


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## steve_jay33 (Aug 29, 2009)

I am using mine to hold big cap stocks with a decent dividend return


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## logicfirst (Aug 19, 2009)

recently started trading at the beginning of september. Currently seeing a lost of ~300 on my initial 4500 that I had put in. I am still new to this and have been putting my money into alot of the horizen beta pros ETF. I am somewhat gambling, basing desicions on speculation, and i know it aint a good thing.I m hoping that when my contribution room opens up I become more serious and put my money in something sound.


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## DavidJD (Sep 27, 2009)

*Definately use the TFSA as a high risk money maker!!*

I completely agree with putting high risk investments, hoping for a 'home run' deal and then converting the 'winnings' into more conservative dividend paying stocks. The day my TFSA opened in January, a junior exploration company that I held dipped to a 52 week low - $0.10. I had 125,000 units at the time (book value of $0.20) and transferred 50,000 units into my my wife's and my TFSAs (100,000 combined). I lost the ability to claim a loss of a dime per unit.

As of yesterday it is trading at $0.30/unit or a gain of $10,000 (200%) in each account. I missed an opportunity to dump them at $0.42 in May which would have allowed me to pick more up again when they dipped to the $0.17-$0.22 range. I called TDWaterhouse with a question about depositing warrants into the TFSA and they put me on hold for a really long time. When the trader got back to me, he said when he asked his manager my question, they thought I had overcontributed to the account because it was over $20,000 

The news on this stock is promising and it appears they are headed for production. The drilling results have been quite impressive.

IF anyone wants to watch the stock it is RXE (RXEploration) and trades on the CNQ. If it gets to $0.50 soon I think I will consider selling most units. If anyone has suggestions for what to diversify into (I REALLY like EIF on the TSX) let me know.

I call my TFSA my OSBA (off-shore bank account).


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## bandana (Sep 18, 2009)

I started out doing some speculative trading through my wife's and my TFSA's, but have ceased being too aggressive at the moment. So far, the results have been pretty decent.

In my TFSA I currently hold only WRK.UN, and, with dividends, the gain so far is 64.86%. 

My wife's TFSA has EXE.UN and CSH.UN. To date, the overall gain on the account (including dividends) is 78.56%.


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## DavidJD (Sep 27, 2009)

Ooops. I mentioned EIF in my last post but that was a habit, they have since changed to EIC (from an income trust to a corporation) and their name changed as well. Still on the TSX.

RX Exploration is now at $0.32 and not sellers under $0.40 so it too is looking better since Friday.

DaveJD


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## Blue Caper (Apr 13, 2009)

*What brokerage are you using?*

What brokerage is everyone using for their TFSA? 

I use BMO investorline for my RRSP but I'm not impressed with their TFSA. $120/yr for the account and $30/trade (I don't yet qualify for their $10/trade).

I still haven't opened a TFSA yet.


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

Blue Caper said:


> What brokerage is everyone using for their TFSA?


TD Waterhouse. No particular reason.


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## yyzvoyageur (Apr 10, 2009)

Blue Caper said:


> What brokerage is everyone using for their TFSA?


HSBC InvestDirect because that's where I have my RRSP and my non-registered account.


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

wife and I are both at $5900 with simple DCA into ingdirect streetwise funds. no account fees.

we opened our TFSA's last October with ING and got 6% until January. Look for them to do something similar this Oct 1.


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## Kinny (Apr 3, 2009)

Questrade for TFSA and non-reg investments.

But, thinking of opening TD Waterhouse and transfer all my assets there. Seems like they have better trading tools and market research info. Although, trade fee is not as good as Questrade. $7.00 (TD) vs $4.95 (Questrade).


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## DavidJD (Sep 27, 2009)

TDW as well. There is no annual fee if you sign up for e-notification or something otherwise it is $50/yr. You have one free withdrawal transaction per year then $25 _per transaction_. I am sure the interest rate is crappy but I don't intend to ever hold cash in there for long. Also makes transfers to my margin, RRSP, RESP etc. accounts easier.


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## carpenter (Dec 2, 2009)

*Trying to improve a double-bagger*

Opened two $5000 accounts (one for my wife) early in the year. 

Bought Canadian Hydro Developers (KHD) for mine and doubled the money. Now contains $10,607 made up of 101 shares of CANADIAN IMPERIAL BANK OF COMMERCE (CM) and $3665 cash.

Wife's account more conservative - now $5365 made up of 102 Trans-Canada Pipelines (TRP) and $1888 cash.


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## jason26 (Apr 6, 2009)

Kinny said:


> Questrade for TFSA and non-reg investments.
> 
> But, thinking of opening TD Waterhouse and transfer all my assets there. Seems like they have better trading tools and market research info. Although, trade fee is not as good as Questrade. $7.00 (TD) vs $4.95 (Questrade).


I think that $7/trade is only if you do a certain amount of trades per quarter, like 150. If you have combined household holding of $100K then you can get $9.99 trades. After I bought my house I went under $100K. I opened my TFSA at Questrade (was pretty easy, and its cheap to trade). I'll likely move my unregistered holdings to Questrade as well but leave my registered holding at TDW, which gives me the research tools that TDW has, not that I use them much though.


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